# Why is La fanciulla del west not a popular opera?



## HumphreyAppleby (Apr 11, 2013)

Surprisingly, most critics actually seem to a gree the Puccini's opera _La fanciulla del west_ is a rather stupendous work. Yet it is still relatively rarely performed. There was a burst of performances around its centenary, at the Met, in Stockholm, Athens and Chicago, but it is still performed considerably less than other Puccini operas, even the incredibly demanding _Turandot_.

The opera seems to have always been divisive. Stravinsky called it "... a horse opera, extraordinarily right for television, with a Marshall Dillon and professional Indians...", while Anton Webern reviewed the opera in a letter to Schoenberg after attending a live performance: "A score that sounds original in every way. Splendid. Every measure astonishing... I have to say I really like it... I would like so much to look at this score together with you. Has this opera completely bewitched me?" Two of Puccini's contemporaries, both of whom fascinated him, and whom he respected (though he hated their music for the most part), give completely contradicting opinions.

The most commonly cited reasons for the lack of popularity of _Fanciulla_, in my experience, are the setting, the lead role, and the lack of arias/the musical style. The setting, while it might seem strange to call it exotic to an American audience, is certainly a dramatically rich one. I often read comments about miners singing in Italian for their mothers far away... as if this wasn't exactly what happened: "I had two married men with me here,
whose drinking propensities severely tried my patience. Several times I determined to discharge them, but they always found some excuse. They would generally begin to cry, and between their tears and draughts of whisky, tell me that they had just had letters from home." This quote from the memoir of William Downie, an early frontiersman shows the scene in Act I of _Fanciulla_ where Jim breaks down and the miners send him home isn't that far away from what actually happened in the wild west. I also find it a bit odd that few people point out the source material: the play that Puccini took the story from was written by a man who was _the son of a miner in California_, and knew whereof he wrote. As to the lead role being difficult, it certainly is, but that doesn't stop performances of _Turandot_ or _Zauberflote_ (which isn't a lead role, as the flute has no singing parts, but i refer to the Queen of the Night). And as for arias, well shucks:





 (Jake Wallace)




 (Jack Rance)




 (Minnie)




 (Johnson)




 (Johnson)

and of course, the only one that gets mentioned, Ch'ella mi creda.

I'll say right now that _Fanciulla_ is my favorite opera, so there's an added layer of incredulity on my part as to how someone couldn't love it too. But it is an interesting question, why isn't this grand opera, sometimes called _Die walkure_ of the Wild West, more popular? What do you think of Puccini's Golden Girl?


----------



## dionisio (Jul 30, 2012)

Although it is one of Puccini's operas i enjoy the most, the plot is weaker than other popular work.

This opera stands, perhaps, in no man's land. Too avant-garde for traditionalists. To traditional for progressists.

Also the fact that lacks of traditional arias.

Nevertheless, Mimi is probably one of the most demanding leading roles for a woman (besides singing, she most know how to ride a horse and shot a pistol)


----------



## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

There are no arias - something which Puccini lovers go for. I must confess I was disappointed when I heard it. It appears a tired opera.


----------



## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

I LOVE this opera to bits. I don't think the plot is any sillier than other operas - in fact I like it because it has a strong and resourceful female character for once, who instead of dying of love or some other ludicrous behaviour, is willing to fight for what she wants. I particularly enjoy the "_rescue by cheating at poker_" scene.

As DavidA says, I think the problem for many is the lack of arias - but if you just go with the flow there are swirls of glorious melody and fantastic harmonies. It's no different in that sense from Pelléas et Mélisande, or Parsifal.

The title role is clearly a killer. Nina Stemme is my favourite Minnie at the moment. Here she is in a lovely Swedish production which makes inspired reference to the silent movie tradition. DVD please, Unitel.






But it is very easy to sound awful (Mara Zampieri in the La Scala DVD, or, more recently, Deborah Voigt in a 2013 production from Liège I saw on Arte.)


----------



## HumphreyAppleby (Apr 11, 2013)

mamascarlatti said:


> I LOVE this opera to bits. I don't think the plot is any sillier than other operas - in fact I like it because it has a strong and resourceful female character for once, who instead of dying of love or some other ludicrous behaviour, is willing to fight for what she wants. I particularly enjoy the "_rescue by cheating at poker_" scene.


This is precisely what pushes my estimation of this opera over the top. And most of the important character developments for Minnie were created by Puccini: her literacy lesson being a Bible verse instead of something else, her riding in to save Johnson with a shotgun, and her passionate speech of redemptive love at the end (which is, in my opinion, one of the best finales ever).

In some ways, though it is often called Puccini's Wagnerian opera, the message of the plot is the essence of anti-Wagner. If Minnie and Johnson were both killed by the miners, and united in eternal oblivion, then it would be Wagnerian. But Minnie saves not just their souls but there lives. Despite it's bittersweetness, the ending is hopeful: they ride into the sun_rise_, turning Western film cliches on their heads before they even happen. Puccini's message is about redemption in this world, and about the power of compassion and intelligence united to form a new consciousness. In this way, Puccini stands closer to Rudolf Steiner than to Schopenhauer, who was Wagner's mentor.

Also, about the lack of arias, why do people treat that as a blessing when Wagner does it but a curse when Puccini does? It's just strange to me.

Sherrill Milnes is the best Rance in my opinion. v=MC3W2yeGyfA


----------



## suteetat (Feb 25, 2013)

The story was ok, not a big tragedy like Butterfly, not as dramatic as Tosca nor as sweet and poignant like Boheme.
Musically, I don't particularly care much for most of Act I until Dick Johnson showed up.
The lack of arias actually does not bother me as much but it might be a big concern. Just like Falstaff which is considered Verdi's greatest work by many but I think general audience probably prefer his other works more. 
Somehow the ending was a bit of a let down, I certainly like the idea of riding off into the sunset together for the two lovers but somehow Puccini did not quite pull it off. However, act II is one of my favourite single acts of any opera, no arias but just about the most melodic and lyrical act.
It is also a difficult work to stage, I think. Generally Turandot is considered the most difficult of Puccini soprano's role but Minnie is almost as heavy but the role is much much longer than Turandot's 25 minutes of fame.
It takes awhile but I think the work is slowly catching on though.


----------



## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Boring story and lack of arias. I didn't enjoy it. Lots of work for the soprano with few thrills.


----------



## MAuer (Feb 6, 2011)

David Belasco's source material was, in many ways, typical late Victorian/Edwardian melodrama that appealed to public tastes in the U.S. at that time. The plucky, but still virtuous heroine was a part of that tradition, and Minnie's choice of the Bible for reading material fits in with that conception. Like mamscarlatti, I like the character of Minnie because she has backbone and courage as well as compassion. (And I can't resist Sherrill Milnes' Sheriff Rance!)


----------



## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

DavidA said:


> There are no arias - something which Puccini lovers go for. I must confess I was disappointed when I heard it. It appears a tired opera.


There is one very big aria in Act 3, "Che'Ella Mi Creda..."but apart from that you are right.
The reason for the comparative lack of popularity is that the subject matter is too modern for many people. They don't really want cowboys and miners from Puccini.


----------



## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

I always enjoy it; but it always surprises me, that I'm enjoying it. It's so NOT OPERA. It's a classic western (movie), played out on stage, with singing.

And at this point I go numb from the effort to say what the DIFFERENCE is between opera and a western, apart from the singing. I dunno.


----------



## dionisio (Jul 30, 2012)

Curious that the poker scene puzzles me. It "seems very unoperatic" but works really well as a movie soundtrack! I don't know if i'm expressing myself with the exact words but it's something like that.

Nevertheless, if i'm not mistaken, i think La fanciulla is the only opera (and_ Il tritico_) that had its premiere in the Met and it is still performed.


----------



## deggial (Jan 20, 2013)

guythegreg said:


> And at this point I go numb from the effort to say what the DIFFERENCE is between opera and a western, apart from the singing. I dunno.


the banjo! Puccini should've had a stab at Oh, Brother, where art Thou?


----------



## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

... god, you're right ... :lol:


----------



## MAuer (Feb 6, 2011)

deggial said:


> the banjo! Puccini should've had a stab at Oh, Brother, where art Thou?


But Minnie and her pals are out in California, not down in Dixie!


----------



## deggial (Jan 20, 2013)

still, the banjo wins  nevermind that Oh Brother isn't even a western :lol:


----------



## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

Wow, a Puccini opera with a happy ending. Nice!


----------



## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

dionisio said:


> Although it is one of Puccini's operas i enjoy the most, the plot is weaker than other popular work.
> 
> This opera stands, perhaps, in no man's land. Too avant-garde for traditionalists. To traditional for progressists.
> 
> ...


Um...I know you meant Minnie and not Mimi, whose lyric voice is a piece of cake next to Minnie.


----------



## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

One of the most exciting scenes in all of operadom is the Poker Scene in Fanciulla del West as done by Renata Tebaldi. It sends shivers up your spine.
Listen for yourself as she bargains for the life of Mr. Johnson by challenging Rance to a game of poker. She cheats and wins! When she yells "tre assi e un paio" (3 aces and a pair) the audience goes nuts.


----------



## betterthanfine (Oct 17, 2017)

nina foresti said:


> One of the most exciting scenes in all of operadom is the Poker Scene in Fanciulla del West as done by Renata Tebaldi. It sends shivers up your spine.
> Listen for yourself as she bargains for the life of Mr. Johnson by challenging Rance to a game of poker. She cheats and wins! When she yells "tre assi e un paio" (3 aces and a pair) the audience goes nuts.


Oh my gosh, this is magnificent! Total goosebumps. Thanks for posting!


----------



## Sloe (May 9, 2014)

Fritz Kobus said:


> Wow, a Puccini opera with a happy ending. Nice!


It is enough with Turandot.


----------



## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

betterthanfine said:


> Oh my gosh, this is magnificent! Total goosebumps. Thanks for posting!


Always great to see a new enthusiast member, welcome to Talk Classical.


----------



## betterthanfine (Oct 17, 2017)

Pugg said:


> Always great to see a new enthusiast member, welcome to Talk Classical.


I see we're not just from the same country, but are both Fleming fans as well! Dank je wel voor het warme welkom!


----------



## Sloe (May 9, 2014)

moody said:


> There is one very big aria in Act 3, "Che'Ella Mi Creda..."but apart from that you are right.
> The reason for the comparative lack of popularity is that the subject matter is too modern for many people. They don't really want cowboys and miners from Puccini.


I do not think the subject is too modern. The opera is set in 1850, 20 years later than La Boheme and Madama Butterfly was set in present time.


----------



## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

betterthanfine said:


> I see we're not just from the same country, but are both Fleming fans as well! Dank je wel voor het warme welkom!


Few more Fleming fans here, dig in the opera thread, you will find them.


----------



## davidglasgow (Aug 19, 2017)

I think the soprano role is the deciding factor: the part demands a world-beater who can probably name twenty glamorous parts which are more congenial than Minnie. When you consider that Freni, Scotto, Ricciarelli and Caballe all tried parts which pushed them vocally and dramatically to their limits - including roles such as Elisabetta, Norma, Gioconda, Lady Macbeth, Tosca, Turandot - I don't think any tried Minnie? 

It's arguable that none of the complete studio recordings have matched the wild performances of the 1950s and 1960s with conductors like Mitropoulos, tenors like Del Monaco and Corelli or sopranos like Tebaldi and Olivero. As much as I love di Stefano, his records from the opera reveal the challenge the music poses to lyrical voices, no matter their temperament


----------



## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

So far I have ordered (some received) five Fanciulla DVDs and One CD set:

La Fanciulla Domingo Daniels DVD
La Fanciulla Domingo Neblett DVD
La Fanciulla Domingo Zampieri DVD & CD
La Fanciulla Kaufmann Stemme DVD
La Fanciulla Giordani Voight DVD

I do believe there are a couple more CD sets that would be great to have:

Tebaldi as Minne (there seems to be more than one performance with Tebaldi on CD)
Eleanor Steber as Minne (I heard she is even better than Tebaldi, but some of the releases are better sound than others)

As for DVDs, I don't see any others that appeal to me at this time.


----------



## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Giacomo Puccini, "Ch'ella mì creda libero" (de La Fanciulla del West)
Now this is the show stopper.


----------



## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

Pugg said:


> Giacomo Puccini, "Ch'ella mì creda libero" (de La Fanciulla del West)
> Now this is the show stopper.


Totally Awesome! What a remarkable voice! That one has not been delivered yet, but maybe have to watch it next or ASAP! BTW, that whole production is on YouTube, but no subtitles.


----------



## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Fritz Kobus said:


> So far I have ordered (some received) five Fanciulla DVDs and One CD set:
> 
> La Fanciulla Domingo Daniels DVD
> La Fanciulla Domingo Neblett DVD
> ...


The Regis recording sound very reasonable, not cheap though.

https://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/classical/products/7975748--puccini-la-fanciulla-del-west

clips


----------



## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

Pugg said:


> The Regis recording sound very reasonable, not cheap though.
> 
> https://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/classical/products/7975748--puccini-la-fanciulla-del-west
> 
> clips


Between price and sound quality, I think I would go with a Tebaldi set, probably the newer of the two.


----------



## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

Maybe this would make La Fanciulla del West a more popular production? It is a book. The Amazon summary says,


> Puccini shows us youthful love and burning desire in a joyous evening of drama and delight. In this adaptation, Minnie runs a dilapidated Soho internet cafe, populated by Eastern European immigrants and targeted by the Albanian underworld. When she falls for Vik, a gang leader intent on stealing from the cafe, their lives take a turn for the dramatic.


----------



## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Fritz Kobus said:


> So far I have ordered (some received) five Fanciulla DVDs and One CD set:
> 
> La Fanciulla Domingo Daniels DVD
> La Fanciulla Domingo Neblett DVD
> ...


Maybe Carol Neblett, who sang the role for Mehta on DG, sang the role too often, as her career didn't last that long. For quite a while she was _the_ Minnie to hear.

Personally I think she is better than either Tebaldi or Nilsson. She has Nilsson's security on top and Tebaldi's warmth in the middle register, plus the dramatic measure of the part. I heard her sing it at Covent Garden with Domingo, and she even looked convincing. The DG recording is the one to have and there is also a DVD of the splendid Covent Garden production with her and Domingo. Warmly recommended.


----------



## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

Quite often overlooked (possibly due to Frazzoni not being a household name), the following live performance with Corelli and Gobbi in the tenor and baritone roles is not to be missed:

http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/album.jsp?album_id=151264

N.


----------



## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

The Conte said:


> Quite often overlooked (possibly due to Frazzoni not being a household name), the following live performance with Corelli and Gobbi in the tenor and baritone roles is not to be missed:
> 
> http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/album.jsp?album_id=151264
> 
> N.


I checked that one out. Very good, but the sound is not as good as I would like.

What about the set with Eva Marton as Minne?


----------



## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

Rather than just saying, "Duplicate Post Deleted," I figured to do something more fun with it, so how about this. Here is one of my favorite CD covers for this opera:


----------



## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

Fritz Kobus said:


> I checked that one out. Very good, but the sound is not as good as I would like.
> 
> What about the set with Eva Marton as Minne?


The sound is ok for a 50s live recording, but not everybody can tolerate vintage recordings.

I don't know Marton's Minnie. Happy listening.

N.


----------



## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

The Conte said:


> The sound is ok for a 50s live recording, but not everybody can tolerate vintage recordings.


Very true. It would be a worthy addition to any La Fanciulla collection.


----------



## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

Found a sung-in-English set but not sure I want it. 
Maybe in MP3s when they have their next big sale.


----------



## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

As far as Minne goes, I think it is a toss up between these two. I might lean more towards Nilsson, but then you have to figure Johnson in and it is pretty hard to beat Domingo. Too bad Kaufmann is not on CD.


----------



## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

After watching my second video of this opera I get the distinct impression that Nick, the bartender at the Polka saloon, gave Minne a heads up on the lynch mob getting together to do in Johnson. Remember how he told (and threatened) the Indian to make sure he takes a long time to put the noose together? That apparently was so Nick could step out and give Minne a heads up. Else, how did Minne know to come out there at that specific time?


----------



## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

*If you are a fan of Wagner's opera, they why not check out La Fanciulla del West?*

Consider this:



> Fanciulla is surrounded on many levels by a series of Wagnerian suggestions. There is a narrative line which brings about moral redemption, as in Parsifal, although cleansed of mystic incrustations and of the Wagnerian mythology of purity: in Minnie's harsh analysis, the men remain "outlaws and cheats": the "gamemaster" Rance, the true "outlaw" Johnson/Ramerrez, the "mistress of the flophouse and of gambling" Minnie. There is a trace of the union of Sigmund e Siglinde in the embrace of the two protagonists who ignore the gusts of wind that batter their shack, but it is only fleeting. There is the evocation of Minnie in Valkyrie's clothing the instant she bursts onto the scene of Johnson's hanging, "on horseback, scantily clad, her hair to the wind," and heralded by a "savage cry." And there are musical reverberations that permeate a few key moments in the score. One of these affects Minnie's motif - the vibrant and fortissimo exclamation that announces her first appearance in Act I - which, due to its beginning interval on a descending seventh as well as its melodic contour, alludes to the leitmotif associated with Gutrune in Gotterdämmerung and, in particular, to the variant thereof categorized in guides (from Hans von Wolzogen onward) as the "theme of the treachery of love." Another reflects the reiterated use of the opening of the initial motif found in Tristan und Isolde: a commonplace Wagnerism in Italian opera, widely adopted by Puccini in Manon Lescaut, was the use of the related Tristan Chord. The four notes of which it is composed (a, f, e, d-sharp in Wagner's original), currently classified as a "theme of suffering", in Fanciulla appear for the first time in the final duet of Act I, at the point when Johnson attempts to mollify Minnie, who is bent on defending the miners' gold with her life ("Oh, non temete, nessuno ardirà!"). After which, in Act II, with a harmonization structured on the tritone and a messa in sequenza in the ostinato form which reinforces the original intention of the sorrowful motif, it orchestrally highlights Minnie's anguish over Johnson's fate: the episode in which she succors the wounded Johnson ("Su, su, su, presto! Su, salvati!…"), the scene in which she pleads with the merciless Rance ("Aspettate, non può"), the dramatic, final bet ("Una partita a poker!") until the act closes, in the convulsive moment of exuberance mixed with a desperate cry ("Ah! È mio").


Source (see part 5): http://www.operatoday.com/content/2008/11/the_colors_of_l.php


----------



## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Fritz Kobus said:


> Consider this:
> 
> Source (see part 5): http://www.operatoday.com/content/2008/11/the_colors_of_l.php


Not an easy article to read at all points (translation problem?) but interesting.

There's actually a great deal of Wagner's influence in Puccini. He kept scores of _Tristan_ and _Parsifal_ on his piano to inspire him, and imagined a final love duet for Turandot and Calaf which was to equal in scope Tristan and Isolde's.


----------



## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

I'm not crazy about the music nor he story, and the setting just doesn't get me excited about the opera. I would never pay to see it again. It is difficult like Turandot without the thrills of Turandot. I guess I am shallow.


----------



## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

Seattleoperafan said:


> I'm not crazy about the music nor he story, and the setting just doesn't get me excited about the opera. I would never pay to see it again. It is difficult like Turandot without the thrills of Turandot. I guess I am shallow.


I don't know. Maybe it simply boils down to being a great love story, which is also the case for another of my favorite operas, Flotow's Martha.

I do recall reading that the parts in Fanciulla can be very difficult to sing and so it is not often performed because not many singers are up to it.


----------



## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

> "It goes against a century's worth of cinematic myths about the Old West. Instead of a strong, silent cowboy rescuing a helpless heroine, we have an emotionally vulnerable bandit rescued by a gun-toting, poker-playing, independent woman. But that's actually much truer to history."
> ...
> Minnie, the fearless title character of "Fanciulla" and one of the few Puccini heroines left breathing at the final curtain, spawned a line of similarly strong, feisty, unorthodox American heroines. The leading women in Carlisle Floyd's "Susannah," Douglas Moore's "Ballad of Baby Doe," Jack Beeson's "Lizzie Borden," Marc Blitzstein's "Regina," Richard Danielpour's "Margaret Garner," Jake Heggie's "Dead Man Walking" and Mark Adamo's "Little Women" may all be counted among Minnie's heirs.


And much more interesting information in,
When Puccini Rode Tall In the Saddle, (NYT DEC. 3, 2010)


----------



## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Seattleoperafan said:


> I'm not crazy about the music nor he story, and the setting just doesn't get me excited about the opera. I would never pay to see it again. It is difficult like Turandot without the thrills of Turandot. I guess I am shallow.


No your not, I see what you mean, the other day I said to Fritz, I rather see then just sit down and listen.


----------



## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

Pugg said:


> No your not, I see what you mean, the other day I said to Fritz, I rather see then just sit down and listen.


I don't know if it makes a difference, but the only time I really sit down and listen is when I watch opera on DVD. Otherwise, I am listening a lot, probably 6+ hours per day, but while doing other things. I don't think I could just sit and listen apart from some activity be it watching or doing chores.


----------



## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Fritz Kobus said:


> I don't know if it makes a difference, but the only time I really sit down and listen is when I watch opera on DVD. Otherwise, I am listening a lot, probably 6+ hours per day, but while doing other things. I don't think I could just sit and listen apart from some activity be it watching or doing chores.


I drive all day at my job and unless I watch something on Youtube, I only listen while I drive. My neighbors don't want to hear Nilsson's high C LOLOLOLOLOL


----------



## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

Here is the one I want.


----------



## Star (May 27, 2017)

Nit one of Puccini's best. The story seems anachronistic to English speakers, set in the Wild West with Cowboys singing Italian. also there are no real tuneful arias which Puccini was noted for. But I'll gave to dust down our copy of Tebakdi singing Minnie and have another listen


----------



## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

Another interesting article here. Couple of quotes (page 257--no it is only a chapter from a book, so starts at page 250):



> But many details of Fanciulla's plot-beyond the question of transmission language-are troublesome to American audiences in that they bump up against notions of the West inherited from over a hundred years of cinematic mythmaking.





> In fact, however, the historical West of the Gold Rush era-as recorded in first-hand accounts by J.S. Holliday and William Downie-bears more of a relation to the opera's libretto than to Hollywoodiana.


----------



## Sloe (May 9, 2014)

Star said:


> Nit one of Puccini's best. The story seems anachronistic to English speakers, set in the Wild West with Cowboys singing Italian.


With that reasoning the only Puccini operas that are not odd are Suor Angelica and Gianni Schicchi.

I saw a really gloomy version of it on TV once with Nina Stemme. I turned it off after the first act and thought Puccini must have injured his head after the car accident.

To be fair I haven´t given that opera a fair chance.


----------



## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

_Fanciulla_ is my favorite Puccini. I like the harmonic and orchestral inventiveness, I like a heroine who won't be victimized, and I like the whole nutty idea of an opera about the Wild West written by an Italian influenced by Debussy and Wagner. _Fanciulla_ has gained in popularity and deserves to take up more space in the repertoire. Who needs another mediocre _Boheme_ or _Tosca?_


----------



## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

Here is something to ponder. If Mr. Johnson had escaped without being shot after Minne kicked him out of the cabin, would he have gone back to running his gang? The state of mind he was in as he left that trailer seems to be one of hopelessness. So maybe it is a good thing he was shot and fell back into the cabin to be rescued from his former way of life.


----------



## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Seattleoperafan said:


> *I drive all day at my job and unless I watch something on Youtube, I only listen while I drive. *My neighbors don't want to hear Nilsson's high C LOLOLOLOLOL


I certainly hope you don't watch YouTube when you drive! :lol:


----------



## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

It is looking like my two favorites of the nine Fanciulla DVDs are these:


















But they all are very good. The other seven are:

- Pink Trailer with Eva-Maria Westbroek
- Stemme/Kaufmann (Stemme much better in the one pictured above, just based on she looks weird in this one, like Raggedy Ann)
- Deborah Voigt
- Stella (the old 1963 set that I haven't actually watched yet)
- Zampieri/Domingo
- Neblett/Domingo
- Daniels/Domingo


----------



## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

Fascinating discussion by Barbara Daniels about La Fanciulla del West:


----------



## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Fritz Kobus said:


> Fascinating discussion by Barbara Daniels about La Fanciulla del West:


Nice. From her accounts of accidents on set it seems the west was even wilder than I realized.


----------



## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

Woodduck said:


> _Fanciulla_ is my favorite Puccini. *I like the harmonic and orchestral inventiveness*, I like a heroine who won't be victimized, and I like the whole nutty idea of an opera about the Wild West written by an Italian influenced by Debussy and Wagner. _Fanciulla_ has gained in popularity and deserves to take up more space in the repertoire. Who needs another mediocre _Boheme_ or _Tosca?_


I think you would like this. Musically (instruments and voices) it strongly reminds me of La Fanciulla del West.





Of it, Christopher Howell of MusicWeb writes,


> It is a satisfying story, likely to remain relevant for as long as dictators are still with us, and Mascagni has illustrated it with music of dark and menacing power. Set arias are practically non-existent, but the declamation itself is melodic as well as dramatic and the few moments of lyrical expansion are often of great beauty. Though recognisably the work of Mascagni, he has brought a touch of steel into his style, and as far as I am concerned has done so with complete success. I see it as an enlargement of his range, not a negation of his natural talent.


----------



## Don Fatale (Aug 31, 2009)

I'm seeing a Fanciulla in Budapest on Tuesday. The last performance of this was by Opera North (UK) a couple of years ago and it was excellent and a critical and public hit. Clever and unfussy staging and great cast direction, i.e. there is a large cast that need to move and act in a natural manner. I picked up the audience vibe that non-regular-operagoers enjoyed it very much, which makes me think that with its appealing plot it plays very well to an uncommitted audience if the story is well presented and acted. For a regular opera fan it needs a good conductor as this opera is all about the score, rather than the arias. It's a great opera for two mature singers (i.e. 40/50's) who have some chemistry together.


----------



## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

What is this big orange round thing that the guy in the orchestra is spinning and what sound does it make?


----------



## Bonetan (Dec 22, 2016)

Fritz Kobus said:


> What is this big orange round thing that the guy in the orchestra is spinning and what sound does it make?


Is it the wind??


----------



## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

Bonetan said:


> Is it the wind??


Yes, it's a wind machine.

Fritz, it makes that _whoosh!_ sound that you can hear that starts a bit before we first get a shot of the man turning the machine.

N.


----------



## Dick Johnson (Apr 14, 2020)

Fanciulla is my favorite Puccini opera. Having said that, some/most of the composer's other operas are easier to appreciate on the first hearing - at least they were for me. 2 reasons come to mind:

(1) For the casual opera-goer, La Boheme, Turandot, Butterfly and Tosca all have more instantly recognizable arias than Fanciulla. The music in Fanciulla is carefully through-composed. It is beautiful, rich, and melodic - but it took me a couple of hearings to really hear it properly. Puccini put one really good stand-alone aria in Fanciulla but he placed it at the end. When you know the opera - this moment comes as a brilliant pay off - almost like the melodic/harmonious culmination of all that had come before it.

(2) The better known Puccini operas have settings that seem "operatic". While I have come to love the Wild West setting of Fanciulla, it was an idea that seemed a bit jarring at first. e.g. "Hello Minnie!". I have come to realize that this setting for Puccini was consistent with his desire to put some of his operas in exotic locales - so the Wild West setting came from the same impulse that led him to the settings in the Orient.


----------



## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Dick Johnson said:


> Fanciulla is my favorite Puccini opera. Having said that, some/most of the composer's other operas are easier to appreciate on the first hearing - at least they were for me. 2 reasons come to mind:
> 
> (1) For the casual opera-goer, La Boheme, Turandot, Butterfly and Tosca all have more instantly recognizable arias than Fanciulla. The music in Fanciulla is carefully through-composed. It is beautiful, rich, and melodic - but it took me a couple of hearings to really hear it properly. Puccini put one really good stand-alone aria in Fanciulla but he placed it at the end. When you know the opera - this moment comes as a brilliant pay off - almost like the melodic/harmonious culmination of all that had come before it.
> 
> (2) The better known Puccini operas have settings that seem "operatic". While I have come to love the Wild West setting of Fanciulla, it was an idea that seemed a bit jarring at first. e.g. "Hello Minnie!". I have come to realize that this setting for Puccini was consistent with his desire to put some of his operas in exotic locales - so the Wild West setting came from the same impulse that led him to the settings in the Orient.


F_anciulla_ is my favorite Puccini too, but the sight of all those Italian _ragazzi_ swaggering about shouting "Hello!" still makes my skin crawl. I wonder if any Japanese people feel something similar watching _Butterfly?_


----------



## MAS (Apr 15, 2015)

Perhaps if we have a *regie* production, where there were no cowboys and the setting changed to, let's say, an insane asylum, it would be more viable?


----------



## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

MAS said:


> Perhaps if we have a *regie* production, where there were no cowboys and the setting changed to, let's say, an insane asylum, it would be more viable?


Here we don't have an insane asylum, but a radically different setting (I think it is an abandoned subway tunnel, also love the pink house trailer Minnie lives in), and it is a good one:


----------



## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

La Fanciulla del West is a wonderful opera, but it seems like it is one of those types of opera that does not work so well on CD. Rather, one must watch it to really appreciate it.


----------



## ManuelMozart95 (Sep 29, 2018)

I agree that it's too avant garde for traditionalists and too traditionalist for the avant garde public. It ends up standing in no man's land.
I believe Fanciulla is a tremendous Opera and certainly underrated, but I don't agree it's Puccini's best Opera which has become trendy to say among certain fans.
If we're talking about classic Puccini nothing is superior to Tosca or La Boheme.
And if we're talking about a more experimental Puccini then Turandot is certainly superior to Fanciulla. In Turandot he combines perfectly a more daring orchestration with strong arias, which was always Puccini's main dish and the reason people love him.


----------



## Allegro Con Brio (Jan 3, 2020)

I just heard this for the first time a few days ago. Though I still like Boheme, Butterfly, Turandot, and Tosca better, I thought it was a hugely entertaining experience, very much akin to a classic Western film in the vivid, evocative sense of time and place and the autumnal, romantic nature of the music. Yeah, the plot is corny, but I’m not really a fan of any Puccini’s stories, just his chill-inducing music. I heard the 1958 von Matacic recording; I felt like there wasn’t enough tenderness in the characterizations of most of the singers, like they were all trying to put on the cold, “bad***” facade of the Old West. I think there have to be better ones out there.


----------



## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Allegro Con Brio said:


> I just heard this for the first time a few days ago. Though I still like Boheme, Butterfly, Turandot, and Tosca better, I thought it was a hugely entertaining experience, very much akin to a classic Western film in the vivid, evocative sense of time and place and the autumnal, romantic nature of the music. Yeah, the plot is corny, but I'm not really a fan of any Puccini's stories, just his chill-inducing music. I heard the 1958 von Matacic recording; I felt like there wasn't enough tenderness in the characterizations of most of the singers, like they were all trying to put on the cold, "bad***" facade of the Old West. I think there have to be better ones out there.


Indeed there are. Try this one with Catol Neblett, Domingo and Milnes.










It won a host awards when it first came out and has certainly stood the test of time.


----------



## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

There was a thread where various TC members pointed out their favourite recordings. In fact, I was the one who started it, it can be found here:

https://www.talkclassical.com/61936-puccini-disc-la-fanciulla.html?highlight=fanciulla

N.


----------



## vivalagentenuova (Jun 11, 2019)

I think one can make a pretty strong case for _Fanciulla_ without appealing to fashion. It has far more depth to it than _Tosca_, for example. A comparison between Scarpia and Rance alone suffices to show that. But the lovers are also far more interesting. We actually get to see why they like each other. They have a deep connection because they are both people who want to be more than they are who feel trapped in circumstances that cause them to fail. That's far more interesting than whatever Tosca and Cavaradossi see in each other. And we hear the difference in the music. Minnie herself is also more interesting than Tosca. As a piece of music drama, _Fanciulla_ is a much better work.

I would add that for me the greatest pleasure of Puccini's operas is not the arias themselves (though they are rightly famous) but the way in which he creates a unique sonic world for each opera; the way he handles setting and places characters within settings musically (the first scene of _Fanciulla_ being a great example of this); his unique arioso style, which truly erases the difference between aria and recitiative. All of these elements are at their peak in _Fanciulla_. Only _Tabarro_ and _Turandot_ reach similar heights. I think any of those three could be considered his masterpiece. As much as I like a good bit of _La boheme_, I tend to get restless after Act I. Act I is perfect. Act II is enjoyable. Act III has some nice moments and atmospheric writing at the beginning, but by this point I start to squirm. Act IV again has some wonderful moments, but lays it on a bit thick at times. It's a lovely, energetic opera, but I don't think it's as good as his later work.


----------



## The Wolf (Apr 28, 2017)

Tsaraslondon said:


> Indeed there are. Try this one with Catol Neblett, Domingo and Milnes.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


They are great also in the DVD from ROH. The production is by Piero Faggioni and Santi was the conductor.


----------



## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

The Wolf said:


> They are great also in the DVD from ROH. The production is by Piero Faggioni and Santi was the conductor.


Yes, I saw it - at a revival, I think. Neblett and Domingo were still Minnie and Johnson. I can't remember who played Rance. It was Silvano Carroli on the DVD. Milnes is only on the CDs.


----------



## MAS (Apr 15, 2015)

Tsaraslondon said:


> Yes, I saw it - at a revival, I think. Neblett and Domingo were still Minnie and Johnson. I can't remember who played Rance. It was Silvano Carroli on the DVD. Milnes is only on the CDs.


It must've been one of those packaged productions. Nebblett, Domingo and Carroli also sang it on San Francisco, and I think it went onto Chicago or MET as well.


----------



## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

Not popular? Sez who?
Just take a gander at this scene and one will be forever transfixed to this Puccini masterpiece.


----------



## Azol (Jan 25, 2015)

La Fanciulla is definitely a masterpiece in my opinion. As most Puccini's operas (well, Edgar is less so, heh) and he is an exquisite orchestrator as well as a tunesmith. La Fanciulla wasn't a love from the first sight for me, but surely from the second sight and I have become a lifetime fan after that. Barbara Daniels is the Minnie of my choice. Neblett has been successful in the studio, but her voice and acting abilities do not translate well to the live performance. This is a very hard part to pull off. If you haven't seen Daniels and you happen to enjoy La Fanciulla, you owe it to yourself. Thank me later (not necessary).


----------



## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Azol said:


> La Fanciulla is definitely a masterpiece in my opinion. As most Puccini's operas (well, Edgar is less so, heh) and he is an exquisite orchestrator as well as a tunesmith. La Fanciulla wasn't a love from the first sight for me, but surely from the second sight and I have become a lifetime fan after that. Barbara Daniels is the Minnie of my choice. Neblett has been successful in the studio, but her voice and acting abilities do not translate well to the live performance. This is a very hard part to pull off. If you haven't seen Daniels and you happen to enjoy La Fanciulla, you owe it to yourself. Thank me later (not necessary).


I saw Neblett as Minnie at Covent Garden and she was every inch the perfect Minnie and vocally she sounded just great. I believe she started having vocal problems in the 1980s, so I'm pleased I saw her when she was at her peak.


----------



## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

I like both Neblett and Daniels in the role and have the CD of the former and the DVD of the latter. My favourite Minnie is Magda Olivero, though. Her poker scene with Giangiacomo Guelfi is up there with the Callas/Gobbi 1964 Tosca.

N.


----------



## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

Forgive me Magda whilst I stray over to the Tebaldi camp. I give the crown of Minnie to Tebaldi. That Poker Scene is absolutely bombastic. Just listen to the audience when she shouts,"tre assi e un paio". 
Never in my life.....


----------



## MAS (Apr 15, 2015)

A timely Pristine Classical release, Andrew Rose presents a remaster of the 1958 EMI *Fanciula* with Birgit Nilsson.

https://www.pristineclassical.com/products/paco177


----------

