# Smetana: Ma Vlast - Rafeal Kubelik



## AClockworkOrange

A quick question really.

After becoming hooked on Die Moldau, I would like to hear the rest of the tone poems collected in Ma Vlast.

I really want to explore on of Rafael Kubelik's recordings but I would like some advice between two versions: 
1) with the Czech Philharmonic Orchestra
2) with the Vienna Philharmonic Orchestra

My instinct says to go with option 1. Czech composer, orchestra and conductor seems like an ideal match and I have become a fan of Kubelik through his Dvorak.

However, my only knowledge of the piece is Die Moldau under Furtwangler and Fricsay. Fricsay is particularly impressive with the Berlin Philharmonic.

Any input would be much appreciated.


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## Ukko

The Kubelik 'homecoming' performance with the CPO is a 'must hear' if there ever was one.


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## AClockworkOrange

Ukko said:


> The Kubelik 'homecoming' performance with the CPO is a 'must hear' if there ever was one.


Is this CD you mean?
View attachment 27422


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## DavidA

There is also a version with the Boaton Symphony Orchestra which I have and is good.


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## Rangstrom

My favorite is the Chicago Symphony Orchestra recording on Mercury. Mono, but some of Mercury's best single microphone magic and the orchestral playing is incandescent.

Really I've yet to hear a recording he did of Ma Vlast, including the Boston, that wasn't top tier.


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## Ukko

AClockworkOrange said:


> Is this CD you mean?
> View attachment 27422


That's the recording. Here is an excerpt from an amazon review of a different issue of the recording:

"Ma Vlast is a work that was very dear to Maestro Kubelik, and one he conducted and recorded it on many occasions. This recording is certainly among the best. From beginning to end there is a sense of occasion, a true celebration of the patriotism that lies behind the music Smetena wrote. There is a passion to the playing by the Czech Philharmonic that truly brings out the poetry and fire in this music, to say nothing of the emotion underlying this performance. The audience is incredibly silent during the performance, as if stunned into silence. The only applause comes at the end of Blanik."


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## bigshot

ALWAYS the Czech Philharmonic for this one. Talich is even better.


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## Guest

Haven't heard Kubelik with this work, but I wouldn't doubt him, and the Czech Philharmonic Orchestra is unparalleled with the repertoire of Dvorak and Smetana. I have yet to be disappointed with this orchestra on the Supraphon label. If you don't go with that recording, my unreserved recommendation is Karel Ancerl with the Czech Philharmonic Orchestra, also on Supraphon.


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## moody

AClockworkOrange said:


> A quick question really.
> 
> After becoming hooked on Die Moldau, I would like to hear the rest of the tone poems collected in Ma Vlast.
> 
> I really want to explore on of Rafael Kubelik's recordings but I would like some advice between two versions:
> 1) with the Czech Philharmonic Orchestra
> 2) with the Vienna Philharmonic Orchestra
> 
> My instinct says to go with option 1. Czech composer, orchestra and conductor seems like an ideal match and I have become a fan of Kubelik through his Dvorak.
> 
> However, my only knowledge of the piece is Die Moldau under Furtwangler and Fricsay. Fricsay is particularly impressive with the Berlin Philharmonic.
> 
> Any input would be much appreciated.


The correct title is Vltava and the Kubelik version live made on his return to his home country is best,as mentioned by Yukko. Talich is very good but dated in sound now.


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## joen_cph

This site lists a lot of _Ma Vlast_ recordings by Kubelik
http://vagne.free.fr/kubelik/Smetana.htm (text in French http://vagne.free.fr/kubelik/Smetana.htm#Ma patrie)

I like the early Decca Kubelik/VPO a lot (1959). There´a later VPO from 1967 too. My 1959-version is in mono.

But I only know around 5 recordings or so of the work - Susskind, Talich, Ancerl, the Kubelik and Belohlavek/supraphon (skipped) + some more Moldaus (Scherchen, Levine, Blech, Furtwängler).


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## moody

joen_cph said:


> This site lists a lot of _Ma Vlast_ recordings by Kubelik
> http://vagne.free.fr/kubelik/Smetana.htm (text in French http://vagne.free.fr/kubelik/Smetana.htm#Ma patrie)
> 
> I like the early Decca Kubelik/VPO a lot (1959). There´a later VPO from 1967 too. My 1959-version is in mono.
> 
> But I only know around 5 recordings or so of the work - Susskind, Talich, Ancerl, the Kubelik and Belohlavek/supraphon (skipped) + some more Moldaus (Scherchen, Levine, Blech, Furtwängler).


Why do you suddenly switch to the German version ?


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## joen_cph

moody said:


> Why do you suddenly switch to the German version ?


I don´t know the Czech PO well enough (except from a few samples) to say anything about. But I find early Decca/Mercury Kubelik a very interesting period, as also witnessed say in the Mahler 1st from that time.

Calling Vltava "Moldau" above was a memory slip also based on the usual naming of that river in my country; I am a regular visitor to the Czech republic and love the country very much, so sorry, no offense ;-).

Of course, sampling the "singing" qualities of the Vltava poem´s string sections as well as the integration of the orchestral voices there is a good way to compare the various versions.


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## david johnson

Kubelik/Chicago all the way for me  I am not really familiar with the others you listed in the op.


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## moody

joen_cph said:


> I don´t know the Czech PO well enough (except from a few samples) to say anything about. But I find early Decca/Mercury Kubelik a very interesting period, as also witnessed say in the Mahler 1st from that time.
> 
> Calling Vltava "Moldau" above was a memory slip also based on the usual naming of that river in my country; I am a regular visitor to the Czech republic and love the country very much, so sorry, no offense ;-).
> 
> Of course, sampling the "singing" qualities of the Vltava poem´s string sections as well as the integration of the orchestral voices there is a good way to compare the various versions.


In the bad old days all these Czech compositions were recorded in German, The Bartered Bride was Die verkaufte Braut, good thing it's all passed.
I feel no offense as I'm not Czech.


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## joen_cph

Concerning the possible offense, I was thinking about any Czech readers popping in here. 

We don´t like foreigners mentioning "Hans Christian Anderson" or "Carl Nielson" that much either, for instance .


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## moody

joen_cph said:


> Concerning the possible offense, I was thinking about any Czech readers popping in here.
> 
> We don´t like foreigners mentioning "Hans Christian Anderson" or "Carl Nielson" that much either, for instance .


Well that's just ignorance and lack of education.


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## joen_cph

moody said:


> Well that's just ignorance and lack of education.


Yes, but in sufficient quantities this can be massively offensive .


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## Pip

moody said:


> In the bad old days all these Czech compositions were recorded in German, The Bartered Bride was Die verkaufte Braut, good thing it's all passed.
> I feel no offense as I'm not Czech.


But It has not all passed - should the Austrians/Germans get all upset because we call their river "the Danube" when they call it
"Donau" - I see no difference between that and Moldau/Vltava or Braunschweig/Brunswick or Livorno/Leghorn.
There are many differences still between countries in Europe over what certain things or places may be called.
When we call the Opera "The Marriage of Figaro" are we upsetting the Italians? When they call the opera "Il Maestri Cantori di Norimberga" are the Germans upset - I doubt it.
If one looks on Amazon Germany's web site - the highlight CDs of all the famous Italian and French Operas are still on sale - in their german translations and, of course, sung in German.
Let's stop all this PC bulls#+t and just allow for the fact that the differences between countries still exist and long may they do so, otherwise life would become even more sterile and boring as it is already.


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## Sudonim

I can certainly vouch for the Czech Philharmonic recording mentioned above. It's a terrific performance, and the sound is superb as well.


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## realdealblues

DavidA said:


> There is also a version with the Boaton Symphony Orchestra which I have and is good.


The homecoming one is definitely one everyone should hear, but the Boston Symphony with Kubelik on DG is still overall I feel, his best for interpretation, sound quality, playing, etc.


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## Ukko

I suspect that the subject river doesn't care what it's called. The first time it was given a name by humans, it was in a language that nobody has spoken for a few thousand years. The name was probably not pronounced Oogabooga, but may have translated as 'that there river'.

If we have to argue, lets make it about something important, like why David Ortiz is batting ~.700 for the Series.


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## Pip

moody said:


> Certainly you miss the point.If a German wants to call it the Moldau he can but I can't see why.
> But for an Englishman to do so makes no sense.
> So if the Strauss waltz is called The Blue Danube in England an Italian should call it that should he? That is ridiculous.


I never said that the Italians should call it that - They call it "Il bel Danubio blu" !
As for an Englishman calling Vltava, Die Moldau, especially having lived in Germany for so long, It makes complete sense to me.


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## Pip

Ukko said:


> I suspect that the subject river doesn't care what it's called. The first time it was given a name by humans, it was in a language that nobody has spoken for a few thousand years. The name was probably not pronounced Oogabooga, but may have translated as 'that there river'.
> 
> If we have to argue, lets make it about something important, like why David Ortiz is batting ~.700 for the Series.


I don't know why he is so inspired against the Cards, but it is great, can he keep it going tonight?
Is there something in the fact that he has to play in the field as it is a NL park, and not just as the DH in AL parks? Maybe this gets his adrenalin going more than usual. How many games has he been DH in the regular season?


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## Ukko

Pip said:


> I don't know why he is so inspired against the Cards, but it is great, can he keep it going tonight?
> Is there something in the fact that he has to play in the field as it is a NL park, and not just as the DH in AL parks? Maybe this gets his adrenalin going more than usual. How many games has he been DH in the regular season?


Ortiz is a fulltime DH, has been for many years now. Holds every significant DH record. He started as a first baseman, is still a good receiver, but has no fielding range. The Series shifts back to Boston, so he can DH again. He is a .300 hitter on a streak; may the streak continue.


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## Ukko

Aramis said:


> That's because if law would forbid doing stupid, ignorant things, too many people would end up in jail.


I have never seen a record jacket calling it anything but the Moldau, assumed that was the Czech name. Many of us Americans are language-ignorant. According to the Brits that includes English.


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## Guest

moody said:


> Certainly you miss the point.If a German wants to call it the Moldau he can but I can't see why.
> But for an Englishman to do so makes no sense.
> So if the Strauss waltz is called The Blue Danube in England an Italian should call it that should he? That is ridiculous.
> As for your comments at the end above--beware because you are descending into sheer rudeness. But in any case your ideas are such that I would not wish to be included in any way.


Yes, but all the time, in all sorts of situations, we label things in some language other than the native one. Why, you, yourself, have done so in your post. You call die Deutsche German, which is the bastardized Latin name given them by the Romans, a civilization long dead.

For that matter, you mention that "The Bartered Bride" was translated into "Die verkaufte Braut." But technically, you should have said that "Prodaná nevěsta" was translated into "Die verkaufte Braut," because that is its proper name.


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## Guest

Ukko said:


> I have never seen a record jacket calling it anything but the Moldau, assumed that was the Czech name. Many of us Americans are language-ignorant. According to the Brits that includes English.


Buy a recording of it on the Supraphon label, and they use the Czech name.


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## moody

Ukko said:


> I have never seen a record jacket calling it anything but the Moldau, assumed that was the Czech name. Many of us Americans are language-ignorant. According to the Brits that includes English.


I have just looked at Presto,s stocl list and they all call it Vltava accept one who opts for The Moldau. I've never seen a record jacket that says Moldau unless from a German company.


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## moody

DrMike said:


> Yes, but all the time, in all sorts of situations, we label things in some language other than the native one. Why, you, yourself, have done so in your post. You call die Deutsche German, which is the bastardized Latin name given them by the Romans, a civilization long dead.
> 
> For that matter, you mention that "The Bartered Bride" was translated into "Die verkaufte Braut." But technically, you should have said that "Prodaná nevěsta" was translated into "Die verkaufte Braut," because that is its proper name.


I can't be bothered to answer nit-picking. We are talking about labelling of recordings.The whole point was that I could not see that an English person would use the German version not that a German could not, though Why they call it the Moldau I'm not sure,it is a Czech river .But OK the Germans and Pip of course can happily go ahead but that is nothing to do with English people.
When holiday makers come back from Prague they don't relate how they saw the Moldau.


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## Guest

moody said:


> I can't be bothered to answer nit-picking. We are talking about labelling of recordings.The whole point was that I could not see that an English person would use the German version not that a German could not, though Why they call it the Moldau I'm not sure,it is a Czech river .But OK the Germans and Pip of course can happily go ahead but that is nothing to do with English people.
> When holiday makers come back from Prague they don't relate how they saw the Moldau.


Well, historically, at different times in the past, the river has been within the boundaries of various Germanic kingdoms and empires. Before there was a Czech Republic, or Czechoslovakia, there was Bohemia. It was, at various times, part of the Holy Roman Empire (a German-ruled empire), and the Austro-Hungarian empire. There is a significant Germanic population that has lived in the confines of what is now known as the Czech republic - if you remember your history, that was the reasoning behind Hitler's claim for annexing the Sudetenland - a region of then Czechoslovakia with a significant ethnic German population. So there is certainly precedent for the Germans having a German name for the river.


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## KenOC

moody said:


> I've never seen a record jacket that says Moldau unless from a German company.


Well, except for RCA, Columbia, Mercury and the others I guess! http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_s...efix=moldau,popular,284&rh=i:popular,k:moldau

It's played on the radio all the time, and if I've ever heard it called anything except "the Moldau" it escapes my memory. Of course this is California, so allowances must be made.


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## joen_cph

Given mid-20th century Czech history and Smetana´s intentions (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Má_vlast + 1st manuscript page here: http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Smetana_-_Vltava_autograf.jpg, ) I understand if Czechs overall prefer the native name for the composition.

As a side remark, the Italian name for Vltava is _La Moldava_, cf. http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Má_vlast whereas "Il bel Danubiu Blu" of course refers to "An der Schönen Blauen Donau" by J.Strauss.


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## Guest

As others have pointed out as well, quite a few record labels have referred to the work as the Moldau, and thus people referring to it would likely go with that, and not have any particular reason for going to see if that was the term preferred by Czechs or Smetana. Incidentally, there are quite a few works that people on here refer to by their English translations, or some other common translation that is frequently used.

Die Zauberfloete - The Magic Flute
Does anybody know what language Tchaikovsky used for the titles of his 3 famous ballets - Sleeping Beauty, Swan Lake, Nutcracker? Did he give them the Russian equivalent names, and we are going around using the wrong names?


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## Ukko

Seems like there was a tendency in Czarist Russia to label upper-crust music in French, at least before 1812. Did that practice peter out?


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## joen_cph

As said, what differs here is the national programme; Smetana was specifically propagating Czech on a background dominated by the German language, cf for instance
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bedřich_Smetana
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Czech_National_Revival


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## AClockworkOrange

Thanks for the input everyone and the interesting discussions which developed.

After the immense praise it has received, I have opted for the Czech Philharmonic Orchestra recording.

Again, thank you all.


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## Ukko

AClockworkOrange said:


> Thanks for the input everyone and the _*interesting discussions*_ which developed.
> 
> After the immense praise it has received, I have opted for the Czech Philharmonic Orchestra recording.
> 
> Again, thank you all.




I have modified the quote of your post slightly to heighten dramatic effect.


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## moody

KenOC said:


> Well, except for RCA, Columbia, Mercury and the others I guess! http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_s...efix=moldau,popular,284&rh=i:popular,k:moldau
> 
> It's played on the radio all the time, and if I've ever heard it called anything except "the Moldau" it escapes my memory. Of course this is California, so allowances must be made.


It would seem so,I in turn have never heard it called Moldau.but only labelled so on old German records.Incidentally,the Karajan on your list is labelled Vltava here,have a look at Presto.
I think the point is that there is no river called the Moldau,the river Vltava is Czech, Smetana was Czech,Czech's call it Vltava.
So let Pip and his German friends call it what they will but it's incorrect and not what the composer called it.
I( have heard no one say that they saw the sunset over the Moldau bridge in Prague.
This has now become boring,but if anyone has maps showing the Moldau (apart from Germany,but I doubt that actually),let me know.


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## Ukko

I haven't seen a statistically significant sample, but suspect that recordings of Ma Vlast are more likely to include a track labeled 'the Vitava' than are recordings of the movement alone. I'm pretty sure I have seen an old recording of Ma Vlast with a track labeled 'The Vitava (Moldau)'.

I reluctantly mention that one of my friends disparages Ma Vlast as being too like a tourist bureau brochure. People get these unfortunate notions, and then they are stuck with them, eh?


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## Guest

Ukko said:


> Seems like there was a tendency in Czarist Russia to label upper-crust music in French, at least before 1812. Did that practice peter out?


I think French was the language of the court for most of the 19th century. For a time, that was the international language, not English, and the Russian nobility desperately wanted to appear as sophisticated as the rest of Europe. That, and all the royals of that time were all inbred and interconnected. At the time of the outbreak of World War I, the rulers of England, Germany, and Russia were all cousins, grandsons of Queen Victoria - there might have been more as well.

I don't know, though, if the Nutcracker was given an English, Russian, French, or German name. The tale itself is German.


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## Guest

moody said:


> It would seem so,I in turn have never heard it called Moldau.but only labelled so on old German records.Incidentally,the Karajan on your list is labelled Vltava here,have a look at Presto.
> I think the point is that there is no river called the Moldau,the river Vltava is Czech, Smetana was Czech,Czech's call it Vltava.
> So let Pip and his German friends call it what they will but it's incorrect and not what the composer called it.
> *I( have heard no one say that they saw the sunset over the Moldau bridge in Prague.*
> This has now become boring,but if anyone has maps showing the Moldau (apart from Germany,but I doubt that actually),let me know.


Well, there are 18 bridges over it in Prague, and if they are out on one, I would imagine it would be the Charles bridge, being the most historic.

The simple fact of the matter is that the river is known by both names. Smetana chose the Czech name, as he was Czech, and this was a very nationalistic work of his. But that region of Bohemia has been under German control (from some German kingdom, empire, or Austria) for significant periods of time throughout the known history of the region. In fact, it is even believed that the name Vitava is Germanic in origin, deriving from the old German for wild water, "wilt ahwa." So some people still refer to it by its Germanic name, and it isn't all that surprising. You are the one who originally brought up the stink that someone should call it "Moldau." They are not wrong. Moldau and Vitava are one and the same. Just as the Persian Gulf is also called the Arabian Gulf (depending on who you are talking to), some things on this planet have acquired multiple names, especially in regions that have changed hands multiple times. Yes, the Vitava is completely contained within the Czech Republic, but it hasn't always been so. As I brought up before, you persist in using the word Germany, when the Germans, whose country it is, call it Deutschland. And the Austrians call their country Oesterreich. Yet we persist in calling them by other names. Why referring to a tone poem called Vitava by an alternate translation of the river's name should cause a stir baffles me.


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## Guest

Ukko said:


> I haven't seen a statistically significant sample, but suspect that recordings of Ma Vlast are more likely to include a track labeled 'the Vitava' than are recordings of the movement alone. I'm pretty sure I have seen an old recording of Ma Vlast with a track labeled 'The Vitava (Moldau)'.
> 
> I reluctantly mention that one of my friends disparages Ma Vlast as being too like a tourist bureau brochure. People get these unfortunate notions, and then they are stuck with them, eh?


I think it also has a lot to do with where the record label is located (e.g. Supraphon is a Czech label, and uses Vitava), as well as when it was originally made (I suspect that, back when the cold war was underway, Western nations, and record labels in those nations, would probably have used Moldau over a "commie" word like Vitava ).


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## Pip

DrMike said:


> I think French was the language of the court for most of the 19th century. For a time, that was the international language, not English, and the Russian nobility desperately wanted to appear as sophisticated as the rest of Europe. That, and all the royals of that time were all inbred and interconnected. At the time of the outbreak of World War I, the rulers of England, Germany, and Russia were all cousins, grandsons of Queen Victoria - there might have been more as well.
> 
> I don't know, though, if the Nutcracker was given an English, Russian, French, or German name. The tale itself is German.


Well, we in Germany call them "Dornröschen", "Schwannensee" and "Nussknacker" for the Sleeping Beauty, Swan Lake and the Nutcracker.


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## PetrB

Ukko said:


> I have never seen a record jacket calling it anything but the Moldau, assumed that was the Czech name. Many of us Americans are language-ignorant. According to the Brits that includes English.


If not ignorant, _Native Language Jingoism_ is not unique to any one nation.

I recall a British music dictionary / encyclopedia, one of the "standart" well known ones, which listed "Das Lied von der Erde" as "The Song of the Earth," and if you looked up "Das Lied von der Erde, it referred you back to the listing in English. This tome was consistent in that practice throughout, whatever the familiar "furrin" non-English title the original work was... rather jarring my expectations at least when, say, looking up, La Traviata  This book takes my prize for the most literally literal as per translating everything into the 'native' language' that I've seen for such a tome in English. So there 'tis.

Related actual event: 
A pair of American tourists were traveling through Europe, on a planned Itinerary, and were going to Vienna by train. After a bit of time longer than what their schedule had printed for Vienna, they were still on the train, and asked the conductor when they would arrive there. They had missed the station and the call, because in the Austrian train station, it is (properly) labeled _Wien_ [Veen] 

Venice, Venezia, Venedig, etc. Unless we're calling it Venezia, it is a translated place name, as so many are translated into something that looks or sounds more 'regular' for the language to which it has been transferred. Fine if you never plan to travel, or read anything but tomes with such an insular point of editorial view on "furrin" languages.

Europeans seem to accept the fact there are other languages as a matter of fact. Brits and other English speakers sometimes, uh, don't.


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## Ukko

The town name "translations" strike me as rank foolishness. In Italy and Spain, the real names are notably finer sounding than those translations, and in most cases the American tourist will recognize them. "Florence" maybe not.

Some of those 'translated' names were imported to the US, with amusing results. There is a Milan in Ohio... pronounced 'MY-lun'.


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## Guest

Ukko said:


> The town name "translations" strike me as rank foolishness. In Italy and Spain, the real names are notably finer sounding than those translations, and in most cases the American tourist will recognize them. "Florence" maybe not.
> 
> Some of those 'translated' names were imported to the US, with amusing results. There is a Milan in Ohio... pronounced 'MY-lun'.


I think so much of it, too, comes from the fact that many of these cities changed hands so frequently. When you consider German names for Italian cities, remember that Italy was once part of the Holy Roman Empire, which, despite its name, was a German empire. Consider cities that run along the border between France and Germany, a particular patch of land that has changed hands numerous times. And it was also not uncommon for the rulers of lands to not speak the native tongue. By and large, the recognizable borders that we think of as Europe are fairly recent, and so you are left with multiple choices for names, and people, I think, tend to go with what sounds easiest or most familiar.

Why do we call Nippon Japan? Or why do we call Zhonghua China?

It is what it is.


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## GraemeG

I think, Dr Mike, the inconsistency comes in not using an English term for a Czech river.
There's an English word for Deutschland, we call it Germany.
THere's an English word for Nippon, we call it Japan.
There's an English word for Venezia, we call it Venice (and note that the Germans call it Venedig)
There's no English word for the Vltava, so we use the German one... ?
That's what doesn't make sense.

It's makes as much sense for a English-speaker to call the Queen of the Adriatic 'Venedig', as it does to call the Vltava 'Moldau'.
GG


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## KenOC

moody said:


> I think the point is that there is no river called the Moldau...


From Wiki: "The Vltava, German: Moldau, is the longest river in the Czech Republic, running north from its source near the German border..." Sure looks like *somebody* calls it the Moldau, since the population of Germany is five times that of the Czechoslovakia and almost eight times that of the current Czech Republic. Not to mention most American labels and all the FM announcers I've heard. They may all be wrong, of course... :lol:


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## moody

GraemeG said:


> I think, Dr Mike, the inconsistency comes in not using an English term for a Czech river.
> There's an English word for Deutschland, we call it Germany.
> THere's an English word for Nippon, we call it Japan.
> There's an English word for Venezia, we call it Venice (and note that the Germans call it Venedig)
> There's no English word for the Vltava, so we use the German one... ?
> That's what doesn't make sense.
> 
> It's makes as much sense for a English-speaker to call the Queen of the Adriatic 'Venedig', as it does to call the Vltava 'Moldau'.
> GG


This is exactly the point I've been trying to make--well done.
Why on earth would I use the German word Moldau ?
English speakers translate Koeln into Cologne ,does anyone therefore suppose a Russian would use Cologne ?


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## moody

KenOC said:


> From Wiki: "The Vltava, German: Moldau, is the longest river in the Czech Republic, running north from its source near the German border..." Sure looks like *somebody* calls it the Moldau, since the population of Germany is five times that of the Czechoslovakia and almost eight times that of the current Czech Republic. Not to mention most American labels and all the FM announcers I've heard. They may all be wrong, of course... :lol:


Yes, Germans call it Moldau and yes use by anyone else is wrong. Incidentally,what does the size of the German population have to do with anything ?
Did you bother to look at Presto Classical,probably not as it would ruin your notions.


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## moody

DrMike said:


> Well, there are 18 bridges over it in Prague, and if they are out on one, I would imagine it would be the Charles bridge, being the most historic.
> 
> The simple fact of the matter is that the river is known by both names. Smetana chose the Czech name, as he was Czech, and this was a very nationalistic work of his. But that region of Bohemia has been under German control (from some German kingdom, empire, or Austria) for significant periods of time throughout the known history of the region. In fact, it is even believed that the name Vitava is Germanic in origin, deriving from the old German for wild water, "wilt ahwa." So some people still refer to it by its Germanic name, and it isn't all that surprising. You are the one who originally brought up the stink that someone should call it "Moldau." They are not wrong. Moldau and Vitava are one and the same. Just as the Persian Gulf is also called the Arabian Gulf (depending on who you are talking to), some things on this planet have acquired multiple names, especially in regions that have changed hands multiple times. Yes, the Vitava is completely contained within the Czech Republic, but it hasn't always been so. As I brought up before, you persist in using the word Germany, when the Germans, whose country it is, call it Deutschland. And the Austrians call their country Oesterreich. Yet we persist in calling them by other names. Why referring to a tone poem called Vitava by an alternate translation of the river's name should cause a stir baffles me.


You are absolutely correct,all these examples are what English speakers call them. But do you then expect a Chinese person to do so because we do ?
I kicked up no stink,control yourself,but merely asked why the Joen had suddenly switched to German--perhaps you would like to read the post.


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## DavidA

The name surely has to tie in with the composer's nationality and language. No-one would think of calling Verdi Mr Grren!


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## joen_cph

DavidA said:


> The name surely has to tie in with the composer's nationality and language. No-one would think of calling Verdi Mr Grren!


Mr. Brook (Bach), Mr. Long-Farm (Langgaard), Mr. Chalk-Burner (Kalkbrenner) and Mr.Cream (Smetana) are other examples ;-).


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## Guest

moody said:


> I have just looked at Presto,s stocl list and they all call it Vltava accept one who opts for The Moldau. I've never seen a record jacket that says Moldau unless from a German company.


This work is commonly called "The Moldau" or "Vitava [Die Moldau]" on various record company labels, not just German companies.


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## joen_cph

I´d suppose that the overall tendency among recordings is to gradually increase the use of "Vltava" or "Vltava (Moldau)" over time ...


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## DavidA

joen_cph said:


> I´d suppose that the overall tendency among recordings is to gradually increase the use of "Vltava" or "Vltava (Moldau)" over time ...


The first disc I ever bought of it called it 'Vltava (The Moldau)'


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## joen_cph

DavidA said:


> The first disc I ever bought of it called it 'Vltava (The Moldau)'


Was that a Czech recording ?


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## KenOC

moody said:


> Incidentally,what does the size of the German population have to do with anything?



The size of the German population seems very relevant. You had written, "I think the point is that there is no river called the Moldau..." In fact, a whole lot of people call it the Moldau! Given the currency of that name in the US, maybe more than call it the Vltava...


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## Mahlerian

joen_cph said:


> Mr. Brook (Bach), Mr. Long-Farm (Langgaard), Mr. Chalk-Burner (Kalkbrenner) and Mr.Cream (Smetana) are other examples ;-).


My, just look at those Beautifulmountains....


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## DavidA

joen_cph said:


> Was that a Czech recording ?


By Ancerl. Yes! Came on Phillips.


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## PetrB

DavidA said:


> The name surely has to tie in with the composer's nationality and language. No-one would think of calling Verdi Mr Grren!


But his friends called him Joe Green ALL the time


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## moody

Partita said:


> This work is commonly called "The Moldau" or "Vitava [Die Moldau]" on various record company labels, not just German companies.


I don't know where you are based as you haven't bothered to fill in that detail.
But as I've said above not in any listings by Presto Classical in the UK,used by many members.
There is no river called the Moldau but if you wish to insist there is what are you going to call the rest of the cycle--"Ma Vlast" ?


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## moody

joen_cph said:


> I´d suppose that the overall tendency among recordings is to gradually increase the use of "Vltava" or "Vltava (Moldau)" over time ...


This is exactly what happened.
Of course this would be funny if it wasn't so pitiful.
I have in front of me a DGG recording of Georg Hann the famous bass.Among other items he sings from :"Der Barbier von Sevilla" I will refer to Rossini's opera that way from now on.


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## moody

KenOC said:


> The size of the German population seems very relevant. You had written, "I think the point is that there is no river called the Moldau..." In fact, a whole lot of people call it the Moldau! Given the currency of that name in the US, maybe more than call it the Vltava...


How does that make it right,are you really suggesting that Smetana called it the Moldau ??
I love this nonsense.
Also who cares what it's called in the US,or are you suggesting that there are many Germans in N.America. Well there are and my family was among them--it's still Vltava.


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## Guest

moody said:


> I don't know where you are based as you haven't bothered to fill in that detail.
> But as I've said above not in any listings by Presto Classical in the UK,used by many members.
> There is no river called the Moldau but if you wish to insist there is what are you going to call the rest of the cycle--"Ma Vlast" ?


If you look again at Presto Classical you'll see that it states at the top of the relevant page for Smetana's Ma Vlast:

"_Smetana: Má Vlast: Vltava (Moldau)".

This page lists all recordings of Má Vlast: Vltava (Moldau), by Bedrich Smetana (1824-84) on CD, DVD & download (MP3 & FLAC). Generally, more recent releases are listed first, but with priority given to those that are in stock._"

In the list that follows many of the recordings show reference to "Moldau" either on its own or as "Vltava (The Moldau)". Try opening up a few and they'll jump out at you.

Apart this, despite what you say, it is common knowledge that "Moldau" is the widely used name given to this work in English-speaking countries. For example, see this commentary on the work by Robert Cummings in ALLMUSIC. [http://www.allmusic.com/composition...nic-poem-má-vlast-no-2-jb-1112-2-mc0002450313]

"_The Moldau is the most popular six works comprising Bedrich Smetana's collection of symphonic poems assembled under the title Má Vlast (My Country). It is, in fact, one of the most widely performed symphonic poems ever written. *Vltava is the name of a river that runs through rural Czechoslovakia and Prague. Moldau is its German name and has come to be the preferred title for this piece, not least because Smetana himself was a German-speaking Czech.* The Moldau was chronologically the second of the six works in Má Vlast. During its composition, the composer was plagued by severe headaches, symptoms of a condition that would cause him to go completely deaf in October 1874. Smetana had found his walks along the shores of the Moldau a source of compositional inspiration and thus decided to include a portrait of it in this series, which he began in 1872 with Vysehrad. He gave The Moldau a sort of Rondo structure and divided it into eight continuous sections. A pair of swirling flutes opens the work to represent the two sources (springs) of the Moldau, and then energetic clarinets soon join them before the famous main theme is presented. Played by the strings overtop busily swirling harmonies, this melody has a Czech folk-like character in its serene, proud character, and represents the Moldau River. ....."_.

I am afraid that you are therefore wrong to suggest that "Moldau" is an inappropriate name for this work, like everyone else on this thread has been telling you.


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## Ukko

"I am afraid that you are therefore wrong to suggest that "Moldau" is an inappropriate name for this work, like everyone else on this thread has been telling you."

Not 'everyone'. I'm pretty sure that in that land, the common people call it Vitava. What the German-speakers call it is irrelevant to them - and to me.

The label applied to Smetana's piece of music is either relevant to us or it isn't, for various and sundry reasons. You have your reasons, I have mine.


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## joen_cph

I´ve given 4 links above pointing to the reasons for the suitability of the name Vltava, including the first page of the composer`s own manuscript bearing that title. Should be enough.


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## moody

Partita said:


> If you look again at Presto Classical you'll see that it states at the top of the relevant page for Smetana's Ma Vlast:
> 
> "_Smetana: Má Vlast: Vltava (Moldau)".
> 
> This page lists all recordings of Má Vlast: Vltava (Moldau), by Bedrich Smetana (1824-84) on CD, DVD & download (MP3 & FLAC). Generally, more recent releases are listed first, but with priority given to those that are in stock._"
> 
> In the list that follows many of the recordings show reference to "Moldau" either on its own or as "Vltava (The Moldau)". Try opening up a few and they'll jump out at you.
> 
> Apart this, despite what you say, it is common knowledge that "Moldau" is the widely used name given to this work in English-speaking countries. For example, see this commentary on the work by Robert Cummings in ALLMUSIC. [http://www.allmusic.com/composition...nic-poem-má-vlast-no-2-jb-1112-2-mc0002450313]
> 
> "_The Moldau is the most popular six works comprising Bedrich Smetana's collection of symphonic poems assembled under the title Má Vlast (My Country). It is, in fact, one of the most widely performed symphonic poems ever written. *Vltava is the name of a river that runs through rural Czechoslovakia and Prague. Moldau is its German name and has come to be the preferred title for this piece, not least because Smetana himself was a German-speaking Czech.* The Moldau was chronologically the second of the six works in Má Vlast. During its composition, the composer was plagued by severe headaches, symptoms of a condition that would cause him to go completely deaf in October 1874. Smetana had found his walks along the shores of the Moldau a source of compositional inspiration and thus decided to include a portrait of it in this series, which he began in 1872 with Vysehrad. He gave The Moldau a sort of Rondo structure and divided it into eight continuous sections. A pair of swirling flutes opens the work to represent the two sources (springs) of the Moldau, and then energetic clarinets soon join them before the famous main theme is presented. Played by the strings overtop busily swirling harmonies, this melody has a Czech folk-like character in its serene, proud character, and represents the Moldau River. ....."_.
> 
> I am afraid that you are therefore wrong to suggest that "Moldau" is an inappropriate name for this work, like everyone else on this thread has been telling you.


I have been attending concerts all over the world and buying records since 1948. So I don't really need you to tell me what might be common knowledge.I have NEVER heard an English speaker use "Die Moldau".
Your section about Smetana being a German speaking Czech probably explains why he called his composition "Ma Vlast" (My Country") rather than "Heimatland"or some such--- I am sure you have hit the nail on the head !!
Therefore you are wrong unless you happen to be German,you didn't bother to answer my query on this point.
As far as Presto is concerned I can only imagine you are looking at a different Presto from the one I've been using for years.
But to be as fair as possible I entered "Die Moldau", this is what came up: Janacek Phil., Leipzig Gewandhaus Orch.,Berlin Phil.,La Scala orch.,Philadelphia Orch., Munich Phil. Guess what ,all listed the work as "Vltava" ,I ceased at that point.


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## Vaneyes

I suggest this CD with Moldau/Vltava. Ma Vlast nobody needs. It stays too long. :tiphat:

View attachment 27643


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## Guest

moody said:


> I have been attending concerts all over the world and buying records since 1948. So I don't really need you to tell me what might be common knowledge.I have NEVER heard an English speaker use "Die Moldau".


Here are two articles on the subject.

1. http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/1666110/The-Moldau

It states: "_Má vlast ultimately became Smetana's most enduring composition, and of its movements, the second, *The Moldau*, has remained the most popular_".

2. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Má_vlast

It states: "_Vltava, also known by its German name Die Moldau (or *The Moldau*) was composed between 20 November and 8 December 1874 and was premiered on 4 April 1875 ...._

...

In the light of this, do you believe that the Encyclopaedia Britannica and Wikipedia have both got it wrong?


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## DavidA

moody said:


> I have been attending concerts all over the world and buying records since 1948. So I don't really need you to tell me what might be common knowledge.I have NEVER heard an English speaker use "Die Moldau".
> Your section about Smetana being a German speaking Czech probably explains why he called his composition "Ma Vlast" (My Country") rather than "Heimatland"or some such--- I am sure you have hit the nail on the head !!
> Therefore you are wrong unless you happen to be German,you didn't bother to answer my query on this point.
> As far as Presto is concerned I can only imagine you are looking at a different Presto from the one I've been using for years.
> But to be as fair as possible I entered "Die Moldau", this is what came up: Janacek Phil., Leipzig Gewandhaus Orch.,Berlin Phil.,La Scala orch.,Philadelphia Orch., Munich Phil. Guess what ,all listed the work as "Vltava" ,I ceased at that point.


I have heard it referred to as 'The Moldau' by the BBC.


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## Ukko

DavidA said:


> I have heard it referred to as 'The Moldau' by the BBC.




Disc jockeys - and announcers - are notoriously error prone.


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## Guest

DavidA said:


> I have heard it referred to as 'The Moldau' by the BBC.


Yes of course they do.

My UK friends and relations tell me that they invariably hear reference to "The Moldau" when this work is played on the UK's classical music radio stations.

Here's some evidence: http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b0185d8q

The above is the playlist for 19 Dec 2011 for one of the BBC's flagship programmes "Essential Classics" which is a regular 3-hour program on it Radio 3 network. Look at the item for 10.30 am, where it refers to: "Die Moldau (Ma Vlast)".


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## moody

DavidA said:


> I have heard it referred to as 'The Moldau' by the BBC.


When was that,what date exactly ?


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## moody

Partita said:


> Yes of course they do.
> 
> My UK friends and relations tell me that they invariably hear reference to "The Moldau" when this work is played on the UK's classical music radio stations.
> 
> Here's some evidence: http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b0185d8q
> 
> The above is the playlist for 19 Dec 2011 for one of the BBC's flagship programmes "Essential Classics" which is a regular 3-hour program on it Radio 3 network. Look at the item for 10.30 am, where it refers to: "Die Moldau (Ma Vlast)".


Yes of course, however you fail to mention that he died in 1963 and that he recorded for DGG who would certainly have used "Die Moldau"then. The announcement you quote would have been straight off the record label.
I have a DGG rcording --Probe und Auffuebrung der sinfonischen Dichtung "Die Moldau". Aimed at the German market I think.
You completely ignore my comments re. Presto,you completely ignore Joens comments . I imagine you can scrabble around and find some more "evidence" if you keep trying hard, It won't get away from the cold fact that a company like Presto has changed Moldau into Vltava across the board. So have a look at Presto UK and tell me what your comment is, tomorrow I am going to call them and ask why. Their answer will be that people know the piece as Vltava rather than the outdated German habit of calling it Die Moldau.


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## moody

Partita said:


> Here are two articles on the subject.
> 
> 1. http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/1666110/The-Moldau
> 
> It states: "_Má vlast ultimately became Smetana's most enduring composition, and of its movements, the second, *The Moldau*, has remained the most popular_".
> 
> 2. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Má_vlast
> 
> It states: "_Vltava, also known by its German name Die Moldau (or *The Moldau*) was composed between 20 November and 8 December 1874 and was premiered on 4 April 1875 ...._
> 
> ...
> 
> In the light of this, do you believe that the Encyclopaedia Britannica and Wikipedia have both got it wrong?


The Encyclopedia Britannica have got it wrong.I wonder how they can say Ma Vlast then mix in Moldau !!!
Wikipedia say Vltava ALSO known by its German name Die Moldau, that's right.


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## Guest

Type 'Moldau' into Presto Classical search box and see what comes up...


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## KenOC

I think Moody is having us on a bit...and quite successfully!


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## Guest

moody said:


> The Encyclopedia Britannica have got it wrong.I wonder how they can say Ma Vlast then mix in Moldau !!!
> Wikipedia say Vltava ALSO known by its German name Die Moldau, that's right.


What's this then? You now agree that the work Vltava is also known as "Die Moldau". Why all the previous fuss then? That's all that some people have been arguing.

It's very amusing that you agree with Wiki, but not the Encyclopaedia Britannica merely over the latter's use of "The" for "Die" as the prefix of "Moldau". They are both clearly saying exactly the same thing about the use of "Moldau" in referring to this work in English-speaking countries.


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## moody

MacLeod said:


> Type 'Moldau' into Presto Classical search box and see what comes up...


That's what I did---see above.


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## DavidA

moody said:


> When was that,what date exactly ?


The date is surely irrelevant as it was post-1948 certainly. You said that you had never heard an English speaker use 'The Moldau'. I just said I heard it on the BBC. Certainly more than once.


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## moody

Partita said:


> What's this then? You now agree that the work Vltava is also known as "Die Moldau". Why all the previous fuss then? That's all that some people have been arguing.
> 
> It's very amusing that you agree with Wiki, but not the Encyclopaedia Britannica merely over the latter's use of "The" for "Die" as the prefix of "Moldau". They are both clearly saying exactly the same thing about the use of "Moldau" in referring to this work in English-speaking countries.


That's not it at all, I said that I couldn't see how they could refer to "Ma Vlast" and then call the second movement "Die Moldau" thus mixing two languages together which is completely bizarre.
Wkipedia said "Vltava" also known by its German name "Die Moldau". It does not say that it's known in the UK by its German name. I have have never said that the caption "Die Moldau" is unknown to me because it's familiar from German records sold in the UK once.
But I have said that it is wrong to use it in English speaking countries and that apparently Presto UK agree with me.
Have you actually read the posts and taken in and investigated the various points made by different people or not ?
If so I can see no evidence whatever.
Posts: 62,50,51,52,55,47,35,31,29,28. I will await your answers or no more discussion.


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## moody

DavidA said:


> The date is surely irrelevant as it was post-1948 certainly. You said that you had never heard an English speaker use 'The Moldau'. I just said I heard it on the BBC. Certainly more than once.


What has that got to do with me not having heard it ?


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## Rangstrom

For the love of all that is treasured, let this go. Enjoy the music, leave the silly disputes for politics or some other waste of time.


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## DavidA

moody said:


> What has that got to do with me not having heard it ?


Nothing whatsoever when you say it like that. However, your original post implied that because you hadn't heard it then English speakers would not say it. Anyway, it's a small point not worth arguing about.


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## starthrower

Rangstrom said:


> For the love of all that is treasured, let this go. Enjoy the music, leave the silly disputes for politics or some other waste of time.


And don't take suggestions for recordings without doing some listening for yourself. Everybody raves about Kubelik, but his fast tempo during the dance section of the Moldau ruins it for me. Speeding through this music sucks all the grace and charm out of it. I'm still looking for a complete recording because I only have the Moldau on a 30+ year old compilation CD. Back to YouTube...

Edit: I decided on Mackerras. A highly spirited rendition w/ the CPO. Maybe even more energy than Kubelik. Just a tad slower, but still fairly brisk.


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## Brahmsian Colors

I strongly recommend my favorite Ma Vlast, played by the Czech Philharmonic under the nearly forgotten Karel Ancerl. His Moldau sequence (Vltava) is especially worthwhile. It is given one of the most sensitive, musical and dynamic readings I've had the pleasure of hearing. The other five sections of the entire work also receive superb performances. Kubelik's early version of My Country with the Vienna Philharmonic is also a fine one. The Vienna strings are particularly noteworthy. Notwithstanding, Ancerl's all around marvelous interpretation sits at the top of my list.


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## Pugg

Haydn67 said:


> I strongly recommend my favorite Ma Vlast, played by the Czech Philharmonic under the nearly forgotten Karel Ancerl. His Moldau sequence (Vltava) is especially worthwhile. It is given one of the most sensitive, musical and dynamic readings I've had the pleasure of hearing. The other five sections of the entire work also receive superb performances. Kubelik's early version of My Country with the Vienna Philharmonic is also a fine one. The Vienna strings are particularly noteworthy. Notwithstanding, Ancerl's all around marvellous interpretation sits at the top of my list.


And it cost almost next to nothing I see, so I did !!


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## Brahmsian Colors

Pugg said:


> And it cost almost next to nothing I see, so I did !!


I hope you enjoy it, Pugg.


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## hpowders

Haydn67 said:


> I strongly recommend my favorite Ma Vlast, played by the Czech Philharmonic under the nearly forgotten Karel Ancerl. His Moldau sequence (Vltava) is especially worthwhile. It is given one of the most sensitive, musical and dynamic readings I've had the pleasure of hearing. The other five sections of the entire work also receive superb performances. Kubelik's early version of My Country with the Vienna Philharmonic is also a fine one. The Vienna strings are particularly noteworthy. Notwithstanding, Ancerl's all around marvelous interpretation sits at the top of my list.


It's your Vlast. Do with it what you want.


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## Brahmsian Colors

hpowders said:


> It's your Vlast. Do with it what you want.


If I only had the talent to set it to music.


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## Bill H.

starthrower said:


> And don't take suggestions for recordings without doing some listening for yourself. Everybody raves about Kubelik, but his fast tempo during the dance section of the Moldau ruins it for me. Speeding through this music sucks all the grace and charm out of it. I'm still looking for a complete recording because I only have the Moldau on a 30+ year old compilation CD. Back to YouTube...
> 
> Edit: I decided on Mackerras. A highly spirited rendition w/ the CPO. Maybe even more energy than Kubelik. Just a tad slower, but still fairly brisk.


For me, the best version of Vltava/Moldau, or of Ma Vlast in general, is the 1954 Talich with the Czech Phil. He phrases the country dance episode with a grace like nobody else I've ever heard. Kubelik, for all his other attributes, just cannot do the same, in any of his versions I've heard (CPO 1937, Chicago, Boston, BRSO, or CPO 1990).

The Ancerl is also a great overall version, and in better stereo sound than the Talich mono. But where Ancerl seems to be off, or rather very perfunctory, is in places such as the lyrical, pastoral interlude in Blanik. Again, Talich's version has more grace and poignance to it.


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## Pugg

Haydn67 said:


> I hope you enjoy it, Pugg.


Kubebelik will always have a place in my heart but I must admit: it's stunning this one.

​


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## regnaDkciN

PetrB said:


> Related actual event:
> A pair of American tourists were traveling through Europe, on a planned Itinerary, and were going to Vienna by train. After a bit of time longer than what their schedule had printed for Vienna, they were still on the train, and asked the conductor when they would arrive there. They had missed the station and the call, because in the Austrian train station, it is (properly) labeled _Wien_ [Veen] .


Reminding me of a tale told by one of my father's co-workers when we were living in Europe. This individual, just off the boat (literally - this is long enough ago that transatlantic journeys were made by ocean liner rather than airplane) from "the States" and in Germany for the first time, was out at a dinner with some clients when he ordered a "dry martini." It was only when the waiter showed up, bearing _drei_ (three) martinis for him, that he realized why he was getting strange looks from everyone else...


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## regnaDkciN

Ukko said:


> Disc jockeys - and announcers - are notoriously error prone.


As in the novice announcer who, obviously, only quickly glanced at the jacket of a Beethoven/Wagner pairing and announced "You have been listening to Beethoven's Symphony No. 4 in B-Flat Major, performed by the London Symphony Orchestra conducted by Siegfried Idyll."

:lol:


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