# The Mannheim School



## socialmusic (Mar 28, 2021)

I've developed an historical interest in the so-called Mannheim School of composers and the orchestra they wrote for, but I'm having trouble finding releases that impart any idea of why they were so influential.

I've read about the Mannheim "rocket," "steamroller" and "sigh," but the examples given of these devices are usually drawn from works from non-Mannheim composers like Haydn, Mozart and Beethoven (probably because their works are ultimately more interesting). Still, I'm interested in finding a digestible way to hear some of these devices in their original contexts. I sampled a 5-volume release by a Mannheim-based chamber orchestra of various concerti from some Mannheim composers, but I didn't hear any prominent examples of the famous devices, and the liner notes weren't much help. Confusing the matter, the most famous Mannheim composers Johann Stamitz and Carl Xavier Richter were apparently part of the "first generation" at Mannheim and seem to receive the most attention on recordings, but apparently the Mannheim sound peaked after their time with the "second generation" at Mannheim, when the famous "army of generals" comment was made about the orchestra.

Does anyone know any good, digestible recordings that illustrate the importance of Mannheim from the orchestral standpoint? I'm not expecting great compositions, just something to match in sound the Mannheim signatures I've read about. And I'd definitely prefer to hear some gritty, gutty period strings while I'm at it.


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## Olias (Nov 18, 2010)

Try Christian Cannabich's works:

https://www.amazon.com/Cannabich-5-...ds=Christian+Cannabich&qid=1617156856&sr=8-11

Also, although Chevalier de Saint-Georges was French, the orchestra he conducted in Paris was VERY Mannheim influenced. I recommend this CD and DVD combo:

https://www.amazon.com/Mozart-Noir-...bf6ec&pd_rd_wg=kQ6n9&pd_rd_i=B01LTI0AXI&psc=1


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## NoCoPilot (Nov 9, 2020)

Isn't Anton Reicha considered a Mannheim composer? Lots of great resources there.



socialmusic said:


> I've read about the Mannheim "rocket," "steamroller" and "sigh,


Mannheim Steamroller is an entirely different experience!


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## Olias (Nov 18, 2010)

NoCoPilot said:


> Isn't Anton Reicha considered a Mannheim composer? Lots of great resources there.
> 
> Mannheim Steamroller is an entirely different experience!


Reicha was born Czech and then French, also a little later than the Mannheim School during it's heyday (born the same year as Beethoven). His music probably has some influences from Mannheim though because the French adopted a lot of Mannheim techniques into their own concert music.


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## SONNET CLV (May 31, 2014)

You might check out this Nonesuch disc:









It features Symphony Concertante For Two Violins And Orchestra by Karl Stamitz, Symphony In A Minor by Johann Baptist Vanhal, and Concertino For Clarinet And Cello by Peter Von Winter.

The composers here are associated with the Mannheim school. Add the other Stamitz, too: Johann.


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## FastkeinBrahms (Jan 9, 2021)

Or try the symphonies by Anton Fils, easy to find on Spotify, for example.


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## FastkeinBrahms (Jan 9, 2021)

FastkeinBrahms said:


> Or try the symphonies by Anton Fils, easy to find on Spotify, for example.


If you really want to hear the Mannheim rockets go off I suggest you listen to his wonderful A Major symphony first, very nicely played by the Orfeo Barockorchester.


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## socialmusic (Mar 28, 2021)

Wow, thanks everyone!

In addition to the help from folks above, I've also stumbled on these releases which have been instructive and more interesting than what I was initially expecting:

- Academy of Ancient Music; Richard Egarr - Birth of the Symphony (includes a nice pair of symphonies from Mannheim composers Franz Xaver Richter and Johann Stamitz): https://www.aam.co.uk/product/birth-of-the-symphony-handel-to-haydn/

- L'Orfeo Barockorchester; Michi Gaigg - Ignaz Holzbauer: Five Symphonies: https://www.discogs.com/Ignaz-Holzb...-Michi-Gaigg-Five-Symphonies/release/13060056 - A very fun little collection from the same group that did the Fils collection recommended above!


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## shiptontense (2 mo ago)

That's a great school


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## superhorn (Mar 23, 2010)

Years ago ,before CDs existed , I took a DG Archiv vinyl set of. symphonies by some of the Mannheim composers out from my local library . I forget the names of the composers, orchestra and conductor , but I know I would recognize these names I could recall them right away . Unfortunately, the music just wasn't very interesting , There was nothing to come remotely close to the brilliance of the best symphonies of Mozart and Haydn .


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## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

These were 2 or 3 LPs each on Archiv (later on CD) by Thomas Füri with a Swiss chamber orchestra, one Mannheim and one "early Viennese school". Most of these works are from the mid-18th century, i.e predating mature Haydn and Mozart. But I doubt that many have ever claimed they were at the level of the best mature symphonies etc. by Haydn or Mozart.
edit:









Camerata Bern - Die Frühe Wiener Schule


Entdecken Sie Songs, Empfehlungen und andere Albumdetails für Die Frühe Wiener Schule von Camerata Bern. Vergleichen Sie unterschiedliche Versionen und kaufen Sie alle auf Discogs.




www.discogs.com












Thomas Demenga • Thomas Füri • Heinz Holliger • Aurèle Nicolet, Camerata Bern - Die Mannheimer Schule (Musik Der Frühklassik)


Auf Discogs können Sie sich ansehen, wer an 1980 Vinylvon Die Mannheimer Schule (Musik Der Frühklassik) mitgewirkt hat, Rezensionen und Titellisten lesen und auf dem Marktplatz nach der Veröffentlichung suchen.




www.discogs.com


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

This might be outside of the scope of what the members will consider as "orchestral music", but dramatic and chamber works (particularly the "contrapuntal" quintet in B flat) of Ignaz Holzbauer, who uses the chorus dramatically (especially in the endings of some of the numbers), come to mind.






















_"Holzbauer′s music is very beautiful, but the poetry is not worthy of such music. What surprises me the most is, that so old a man as Holzbauer [66 years] should still have so much spirit, for the opera is incredibly full of fire."_ -Mozart, in letter to his father (November 14, 1777)






Link to the complete playlist "Richter seven string quartets Op.5": www.youtube.com/watch?v=0PhEA7Ecd_s&list=PLpDRP5eCt4f4qiG0X82DSdJzW4mF4cJuT

_"[...] Kapellmeister Richter. He has now restricted himself very much ; instead of forty bottles of wine a day, he only drinks twenty! ... If the Cardinal had died, (and he was very ill when I arrived,) I might have got a good situation, for Herr Richter is seventy-eight years of age. [...] Last Sunday I heard a new mass of Herr Richter's, which is charmingly written."_ -Mozart, in letter to his father (November 2, 1778)








> "The Adagio and Fugue in G minor for Strings (1760) is one of Franz Xaver Richter's symphonies, which features the learned style in 18th century orchestral works. His experience in churches also contributes to his sophisticated contrapuntal style in his orchestral works. The first movement begins with the tonic key, G minor, entitled Adagio and fugue, and it distinguishes from later sonata form by Haydn and Mozart. The opening material is quite different from the primary theme in symphonies by Mozart and Haydn. First, the opening material is not highly melodically recognizable and easy to grasp for the audience. One could call it primary key area instead of the primary theme. It is in highly learned style with a lot of sequential passages. The music progresses until m. 23 when it reaches a structural V chord in the first section after an augmented sixth chord (m. 25) is emphasized (Example A). Again the music is still in the tonic key area when the fugue begins. The fugue subject is in g minor, and the answer is in d minor. The music goes to B-flat major for the first time in m. 60 after a V–I motion. The B-flat major passage starts another sequence until m. 67. The third tonal area in this piece is C major, starting after a French augmented sixth chord resolving to a dominant chord (G-B-D) in m. 120. A cadence on C major is elided in m. 217, the bass progresses to a D-G motion, sitting on the tonic key G minor in m. 222. Overall, the first movement includes two sections, Adagio (which can be seen as an introduction to fugue) and a fugue (in fugue form), which is very different from the sonata-allegro form composed by Mozart and Haydn. As Jochen Reutter acclaims, Franz Xaver Richter's compositional idiom "changed from a late Baroque sound to a tonal language which reached the threshold of the Classical style. He was influenced by the 18th-century learned style and he adapted the Mannheim symphonic style with his own differentiated instrumentation." Also according to Reutter, "his [Richter's] works from this period include such conservative traits as fugal techniques, Baroque sequences and the frequent use of minor tonality." As shown in this work Adagio and Fugue in G minor for Strings, the first movement is almost entirely based on various kinds of sequences and fugal style. This early symphony makes an intriguing subject for a scholarly study of early symphonies." (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franz_Xaver_Richter#Early_Symphony)


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

some Sturm und drang stuff by Franz Ignaz Beck -
www.youtube.com/watch?v=njnF992nAlw Symphony in G minor op.3 no.3
www.youtube.com/watch?v=ViS0V9-zj8c Symphony in D minor, Op.3, No.5, Callen.17 (1762)
www.youtube.com/watch?v=rc9a0eJamNQ Symphony in D Minor, Op. 3, No. 5, Callen 17 (1762)
www.youtube.com/watch?v=DjAKXDcEYCg L'isle déserte


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