# Amneris sung by a soprano



## Francasacchi (7 mo ago)

Lately it seems more sopranos, usually dramatic sopranos and past prime, or dramatic sopranos having switched to mezzo, were, are, and will be singing this role, for example, Wray, Plowright, Dalayman, and Goerke. Dimitrova sang it while still singing Aida and other soprano roles as did Varnay. Marjorie Lawrence sang it after being stricken with polio quite often and the staging as well could accommodate her disability (seated on thrones and palanquins). Is this part kind of zwischenfach? I wonder, even though the Judgment Scene does venture into dramatic soprano territory. Contraltos.and mezzo-contraltos like Barbieri and Madeira run into trouble here.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Don't know about zwischenfach, but Amneris must be a lot more interesting to portray than Aida, whose great arias can't disguise the fact that she's a pretty flat character. Had Ponselle not retired early she would no doubt have made a good thing of the role. Bad girls are just more fun.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Interesting question. Dimitrova was more famous as Amneris than Aida but her voice was titanic up and down the range. There has not been a true Italian dramatic soprano since she stopped singing a generation ago. Her low lying passages in the Riddle Scene in Turandot were frightening in power. Goerke and Lawrence and most Wagnerian sopranos other than Nilsson could handle the role as much of Wagnerian soprano roles are almost mezzo as it is. Varnay especially always was both a mezzo and soprano.She was also never Elsa but one of the most memorable Ortruds ( also a fun character). I don't think they would be fighting for the role if it wasn't so juicy as Woodduck says. Normally it is mezzos wanting to be sopranos. Contraltos have a problem with it as it has lots of A5's, especially in the final act. I heard Stephanie Blythe in the role and she shook the walls. OMG! Speight Jenkins said she was the best since Simeonato. Now she is a full fledged tenor. She was dressed in white with a foot tall turban and looked like Divine impersonating Joan Crawford LOL


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## Op.123 (Mar 25, 2013)

My ideal is a contralto with a great top like Oralia Dominguez. It needs a dark timbre, I doubt a soprano singing it would sound right to me.


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

Well how about THIS one??? Kaufmann (who sounds more like Cura) who, save for that beautiful last note, should be doing a flip-flop to baritonal pursuits IMO. Even the audience seemd stunned.


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## Francasacchi (7 mo ago)

Woodduck said:


> Don't know about zwischenfach, but Amneris must be a lot more interesting to portray than Aida, whose great arias can't disguise the fact that she's a pretty flat character. Had Ponselle not retired early she would no doubt have made a good thing of the role. Bad girls are just more fun.


Ponselle wanted to do Amneris but Gatti-Cassazza said no.


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## Francasacchi (7 mo ago)

Also perhaps lately we have been hearing more sopranos singing Amneris: where are the Italian dramatic mezzos? (And it seems most of the dramatic mezzos are coming from Eastern Europe.)


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## Op.123 (Mar 25, 2013)

nina foresti said:


> Well how about THIS one??? Kaufmann (who sounds more like Cura) who, save for that beautiful last note, should be doing a flip-flop to baritonal pursuits IMO. Even the audience seemd stunned.


If he had developed his voice properly he could have been a true dramatic tenor, dark and powerful. But I don't think he'd have been a true baritone.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Francasacchi said:


> Also perhaps lately we have been hearing more sopranos singing Amneris: where are the Italian dramatic mezzos? (And it seems most of the dramatic mezzos are coming from Eastern Europe.)


Where are the Italian singers of any sort?


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## Francasacchi (7 mo ago)

Woodduck said:


> Where are the Italian singers of any sort?


They seem to be light mezzos or leggiero or lyric tenors.


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## Op.123 (Mar 25, 2013)

Francasacchi said:


> They seem to be light mezzos or leggiero or lyric tenors.


But even the lighter Italian singers present similar faults to the others, constricted or artificially darkened. No drama, squillo or beauty of tone. This is what the Italian school used to be all about.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Woodduck said:


> Where are the Italian singers of any sort?


The lack of singers today trained in the Italian tradition has dried up which is why opera is in the state it is in today. Bartoli is about the only big name Italian singer I can think of today. Say what you will about her but she has been singing for at least 25 maybe 30 years and her voice still sounds as fresh as it did years ago.


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## BBSVK (10 mo ago)

Tell Sonya Yoncheva. She said on an interview, she avoids the role of Aida, because it is boring, while Amneris would be much more interesting for her.


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## BBSVK (10 mo ago)

Seattleoperafan said:


> The lack of singers today trained in the Italian tradition has dried up which is why opera is in the state it is in today. Bartoli is about the only big name Italian singer I can think of today. Say what you will about her but she has been singing for at least 25 maybe 30 years and her voice still sounds as fresh as it did years ago.


I like Marina Rebeka. She is alive, so you guys feel free to shoot me for liking somebody with the modern training. She is Latvian, but spent a lot of her training in Itally. (Because the Latvian conservatory refused her, LOL!)


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## MAS (Apr 15, 2015)

For a soprano to sing or want to sing Amneris, she needs not only a solid and secure middle and lower register, but also a healthy and easy top. So, in my opinion, no soprano in trouble should, could, or would switch to Amneris unless the voice couldn’t sustain the tessitura of soprano roles any longer. The center of the voice would have to have shifted to a lower spot.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Seattleoperafan said:


> The lack of singers today trained in the Italian tradition has dried up which is why opera is in the state it is in today. Bartoli is about the only big name Italian singer I can think of today. Say what you will about her but she has been singing for at least 25 maybe 30 years and her voice still sounds as fresh as it did years ago.


It's really amazing, isn't it? Italy, birthplace of opera and home of over three centuries of great singers and teachers who set the standard of vocal accomplishment for the whole world... Wagner told his singers to sing like Italians, and as late as the 1920s Frida Leider attributed her legato style to her work in Italian opera and later praised Jess Thomas at Bayreuth for singing in "the Italian manner." Right up to the mid-20th century the theaters were full of great Italian singers, but half a century later they were nearly gone. What happened? Surely the Italians can't be tired of opera, and they can't have run out of gondoliers singing "O sole mio!"


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Woodduck said:


> It's really amazing, isn't it? Italy, birthplace of opera and home of over three centuries of great singers and teachers who set the standard of vocal accomplishment for the whole world... Wagner told his singers to sing like Italians, and as late as the 1920s Frida Leider attributed her legato style to her work in Italian opera and later praised Jess Thomas at Bayreuth for singing in "the Italian manner." Right up to the mid-20th century the theaters were full of great Italian singers, but half a century later they were nearly gone. What happened? Surely the Italians can't be tired of opera, and they can't have run out of gondoliers singing "O sole mio!"


The young people want to be Madonna or Pink not Tebaldi or Freni.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Seattleoperafan said:


> The lack of singers today trained in the Italian tradition has dried up which is why opera is in the state it is in today. Bartoli is about the only big name Italian singer I can think of today. Say what you will about her but she has been singing for at least 25 maybe 30 years and her voice still sounds as fresh as it did years ago.


Bartoli may be eccentric, sometimes bizarre in her physical gyrations, and occasionally questionable in her musical judgment, but she is and always was a great singer. I can really enjoy her when watching her isn't too weird.


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## Op.123 (Mar 25, 2013)

Seattleoperafan said:


> The lack of singers today trained in the Italian tradition has dried up which is why opera is in the state it is in today. Bartoli is about the only big name Italian singer I can think of today. Say what you will about her but she has been singing for at least 25 maybe 30 years and her voice still sounds as fresh as it did years ago.


I'm not sure that 25-30 years of squaking like a chicken having its neck wrung is the greatest of accomplishments, however.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Seattleoperafan said:


> The young people want to be Madonna or Pink not Tebaldi or Freni.


ALL of them?


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Op.123 said:


> I'm not sure that 25-30 years of squaking like a chicken having its neck wrung is the greatest of accomplishments, however.


It isn't, but her Gluck and Salieri albums, among others, should serve to keep her eccentricities in perspective.


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## Otis B. Driftwood (4 mo ago)

Seattleoperafan said:


> Bartoli is about the only big name Italian singer I can think of today. Say what you will about her but she has been singing for at least 25 maybe 30 years and her voice still sounds as fresh as it did years ago.


Couldn't agree more, I have a lot of respect for her.
Ditto for Roberta Invernizzi (coincidentally the same age as Bartoli), also a baroque specialist.


https://youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_lUwGcsT1O8SpLvYEmWuQfDanip9Er5A4A


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Otis B. Driftwood said:


> Couldn't agree more, I have a lot of respect for her.
> Ditto for Roberta Invernizzi (coincidentally the same age as Bartoli), also a baroque specialist.
> 
> 
> https://youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_lUwGcsT1O8SpLvYEmWuQfDanip9Er5A4A


I'd never heard Invernizzi. I was curious and sampled this: 






I think that's dreadful. And this may be the worst version of Mozart's "Exsultate jubilate" ever, both vocally and musically:






She impresses me as one of those early music specialists who sing that repertoire because they can fire off reams of thirty-second notes like a machine gun but don't have the voice for any other music. Bartoli isn't in that category; she
has a much better voice, as well as more control of it.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Op.123 said:


> I'm not sure that 25-30 years of squaking like a chicken having its neck wrung is the greatest of accomplishments, however.


I am not a fan of her coloratura technique, but if she must sing a long legato line personally I find her to have a beautiful, well produced sound. I rarely ever listen to her except for contests, but her basic unembellished voice to me sounds pretty much the same over the years. Even in Bel Canto music odds are the coloratura is only around 35% of what she sings and the rest is still sung with a lovely, well produced voice.


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## Op.123 (Mar 25, 2013)

Seattleoperafan said:


> I am not a fan of her coloratura technique, but if she must sing a long legato line personally I find her to have a beautiful, well produced sound. I rarely ever listen to her except for contests, but her basic unembellished voice to me sounds pretty much the same over the years. Even in Bel Canto music odds are the coloratura is only around 35% of what she sings and the rest is still sung with a lovely, well produced voice.


That's fair enough. Personally, when it comes to older music especially, a "well produced" voice cannot be constricted and lacking in core. Undoubtedly she has a naturally light voice, but even friends used to the modern school of singing were surprised at how small it was live.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Op.123 said:


> That's fair enough. Personally, when it comes to older music especially, a "well produced" voice cannot be constricted and lacking in core. Undoubtedly she has a naturally light voice, but even friends used to the modern school of singing were surprised at how small it was live.


Yes, that is my main issue with her : I wouldn't pay to hear her in a recital at an opera house as I don't think midway back could hear her well. Conversely her tiny voice makes her a recording engineer's dream as small voices record so much better.


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## BBSVK (10 mo ago)

Woodduck said:


> Where are the Italian singers of any sort?


In my bel canto trance, I notice several of them, but they are not world famous. Isn't it something about MET, which you need for being famous, but it is too big a venue for bel canto, while Italians have so many cute little theaters, which ask for it ? Or about Italians being content they live in the centre of the world and not realising it has shifted to MET ?

bass Michele Pertussi - love him.
mezzo Sonya Ganassi

Smaller fish:
mezzo Raffaella Luppinacci - I have my reservations but others like her a lot. And she sang in the obscure opera Giulietta e Romeo by Vaccai, which earned her my points forever.
tenor Enea Scala - didn't decide if I like him, but I notice him
soprano Carmella Remigio


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

Enea Scala is worth hearing. I also like baritone Giuseppe Altomare.

N.


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## Op.123 (Mar 25, 2013)

BBSVK said:


> In my bel canto trance, I notice several of them, but they are not world famous. Isn't it something about MET, which you need for being famous, but it is too big a venue for bel canto, while Italians have so many cute little theaters, which ask for it ? Or about Italians being content they live in the centre of the world and not realising it has shifted to MET ?
> 
> bass Michele Pertussi - love him.
> mezzo Sonya Ganassi
> ...


Just had a listen to Pertussi and Ganassi. They both suffer from artificially darkened voices. They sound hollow and forced, in the theatre this sounds weak and doesn't project properly. You may like them in Italian repertoire but they are not from the old Italian school that Wooduck is talking about. Far from it.


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## BBSVK (10 mo ago)

Op.123 said:


> Just had a listen to Pertussi and Ganassi. They both suffer from artificially darkened voices. They sound hollow and forced, in the theatre this sounds weak and doesn't project properly. You may like them in Italian repertoire but they are not from the old Italian school that Wooduck is talking about. Far from it.


I assumed the implicit framing "none of the current singers are OK, but the incompetent public still appreciates some, yet, none of them are Italians".

Don't take me wrong, I wish your dreams came true, the old way of teaching came back. However, within the existing situation, whom do you perceive as comparatively better ?


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## BBSVK (10 mo ago)

Op.123 said:


> Just had a listen to Pertussi and Ganassi. They both suffer from artificially darkened voices. They sound hollow and forced, in the theatre this sounds weak and doesn't project properly. You may like them in Italian repertoire but they are not from the old Italian school that Wooduck is talking about. Far from it.


Off topic, but I am Slovak - was Peter Dvorský old school and good in your opinion ? When I read your complaints, I always imagine, we could have new Dvorský again, if only the teaching changed. Lately, also Slovak press wondered, where did the great voices go. That's why I don't want to disagree with you guys. But maybe in your eyes, even he was bad ? Ready to hear it !


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## Op.123 (Mar 25, 2013)

BBSVK said:


> I assumed the implicit framing "none of the current singers are OK, but the incompetent public still appreciates some, yet, none of them are Italians".
> 
> Don't take me wrong, I wish your dreams came true, the old way of teaching came back. However, within the existing situation, whom do you perceive as comparatively better ?


I'm not denying their nationality, but the Italian school Woodduck was referring to prized an opened voice with ringing overtones known as squillo. Saioa Hernandez, despite not being Italian, is a better example of the old Italian school than most others around today.


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## Op.123 (Mar 25, 2013)

BBSVK said:


> Off topic, but I am Slovak - was Peter Dvorský old school and good in your opinion ? When I read your complaints, I always imagine, we could have new Dvorský again, if only the teaching changed. Lately, also Slovak press wondered, where did the great voices go. That's why I don't want to disagree with you guys. But maybe in your eyes, even he was bad ? Ready to hear it !


Just had a listen, he is better than the above mentioned but still not using the old technique. It's worth pointing out that liking a certain singer, their interpretation or even liking a school of singing is all opinion. However, which school of singing specific singers belong to is not really opinion. A good ear can be trained to tell the difference fairly easily and if needed you can always compare spectrographic analysis of voices.


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## MAS (Apr 15, 2015)

BBSVK said:


> Off topic, but I am Slovak - was Peter Dvorský old school and good in your opinion ? When I read your complaints, I always imagine, we could have new Dvorský again, if only the teaching changed. Lately, also Slovak press wondered, where did the great voices go. That's why I don't want to disagree with you guys. But maybe in your eyes, even he was bad ? Ready to hear it !


When Peter Dvorsky first appeared, he was compared to Pavarotti, but something happened and his tone soon coarsened when he undertook certain roles. His career coincided with a very rich tenor era, so he was one of many, all of whom had to compete for the lyric and then spinto roles. He was, in my opinion, not of the top echelon.


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## BBSVK (10 mo ago)

MAS said:


> When Peter Dvorsky first appeared, he was compared to Pavarotti, but something happened and his tone soon coarsened when he undertook certain roles. His career coincided with a very rich tenor era, so he was one of many, all of whom had to compete for the lyric and then spinto roles. He was, in my opinion, not of the top echelon.


Yes, he did not last long.
Whoever were the other great tenors, he was "ours", motivated other people in my country to be interested in opera, also the singers, I believe.
EDIT: also remember the "iron curtain", the regime changed when I was 14. The various recordings probably were accessible for someone who is passionate and systematic, but our family tended to buy what was under our noses.
We had two vinyls at home, and I often hear an aria and turn to my mother - "Wtf is this ? Dvorsky was better." Not fair, because he recorded things at his best time and it was probably studio. And the expectation based on habit on my side. But, e.g., I heard Cammarena in Lucia at MET - I _like_ Cammarena ! - but what kind of Edgardo was he ? Whiny. No ringing voice of a strong man, whose judgement was obscured by pain.
So this is, what "good old times" mean for me. Trying to make sense if we are missing (at leats partly) the same things or not.
A very rich tenor era - exactly. What happened ? Is _this_ the problem of teaching ?


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## ColdGenius (9 mo ago)

BBSVK said:


> In my bel canto trance, I notice several of them, but they are not world famous. Isn't it something about MET, which you need for being famous, but it is too big a venue for bel canto, while Italians have so many cute little theaters, which ask for it ? Or about Italians being content they live in the centre of the world and not realising it has shifted to MET ?
> 
> bass Michele Pertussi - love him.
> mezzo Sonya Ganassi
> ...


Fiorenza Cedolins. 
Sara Mingardo. 
Teresa Iervolino. 
Alex Esposito is Italian too, according to Wikipedia. 
Paolo Fanale.
Daniela Barcellona, Barbara Frittoli, but they are a little older. 
Francesco Meli. 
Mariangela Sicilia. 
Ambrogio Maestri. 
Massimo Cavaletti.
Eleonora Buratto. 
I heard them live, except Cedolins and Frittoli. I heard Enea Scala live as Idreno, it was a disappointment after Lawrence Brownlee, a loud but strident and squeaky voice.


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## ColdGenius (9 mo ago)

Carmen Gianattasio. 
Mattia Olivieri. 
Giulia Semenzato. 
Lucia Cirillo.


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## ColdGenius (9 mo ago)

Anna Caterina Antonacci. 
Daniela Dessi, recently deceased, and her husband Fabio Armiliato. 
This is a bit older generation.


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## Otis B. Driftwood (4 mo ago)

ColdGenius said:


> Anna Caterina Antonacci.


Dare I say the best Carmen of recent memory? Also a fine Medea. (both on DVD)


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

ColdGenius said:


> Anna Caterina Antonacci.


I thought she was great in the video of *Ermione* from Glyndebourne, but when I heard her live in a concert which included the arias from *Medea*, I thought both voice and personality were very small. I also know someone wh saw her Carmen at Covent Garden, and they said that it might have been ok if you were sitting in the front rows of the stalls, but it didn't come across in the main body of the theatre. They said the same about her Cassandra.

I also bought this recital, which had some great reviews,










The programme (Monteverdi, Strozzi and Girano) is interesting, but I ended up giving it away, because I realy didn't like the voice.


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## toasino (Jan 3, 2022)

BBSVK said:


> Tell Sonya Yoncheva. She said on an interview, she avoids the role of Aida, because it is boring, while Amneris would be much more interesting for her.


She avoids Aida because she would have trouble singing the role, properly. As of now, she should avoid Amneris, for sure. Sonya has a lovely lyric soprano voice, who was going to sing Gioconda but backed out, supposedly, due to illness. Another role she should avoid- totally.


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## BBSVK (10 mo ago)

toasino said:


> She avoids Aida because she would have trouble singing the role, properly. As of now, she should avoid Amneris, for sure. Sonya has a lovely lyric soprano voice, who was going to sing Gioconda but backed out, supposedly, due to illness. Another role she should avoid- totally.


I have no idea, if you are right or not but thanks for the opinion.


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## BBSVK (10 mo ago)

Just saw in another thread, Violeta Urmana sang both Aida and Amneris. Has she been mentioned ?

And Grace Bumbry.

Marisa Galvany.


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## MAS (Apr 15, 2015)

BBSVK said:


> Just saw in another thread, Violeta Urmana sang both Aida and Amneris. Has she been mentioned ?
> 
> And Grace Bumbry.
> 
> Marisa Galvany.


Grace Bumbry and Shirley Verrett were star mezzo-sopranos who decided to switch to sopranos, as did Violetta Urmana, so they don’t technically count. They sang Amneris then switched to *Aida*.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

BBSVK said:


> Just saw in another thread, Violeta Urmana sang both Aida and Amneris. Has she been mentioned ?
> 
> And Grace Bumbry.
> 
> Marisa Galvany.


Urmana started as a mezzo but successfully moved up to soprano roles. I saw her as Gioconda and she was fine.
Bumbry was very good Salome, but in general I much preferred her when she was a mezzo. She had a great bite to her voice down low that she lost as well as a lot of individuality. in soprano roles.. just like Verrett.
Unlike Verrett and Bumbry, Dimitrova always sounded the same and very valid both for mezzo and dramatic soprano roles. She was exceptional and I think underrated by many people .In the generation since she died, how many could sing like she did???


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## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

Francasacchi said:


> They seem to be light mezzos or leggiero or lyric tenors.


"Light mezzos" in the sense that people refer to today never used to be a thing to begin with. Obviously, there was still variation, but a "light mezzo" used to be someone like Rise Stevens or Elena Cernei, someone who still had a big, dark voice, just less so than, say, Elena Obraztsova, Oralia Dominguez or Kerstin Thorborg.


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## BBSVK (10 mo ago)

Seattleoperafan said:


> . She had a great bite to her voice down low that she lost as well as a lot of individuality. in soprano roles.. just like Verrett.


A classmate in my lecture group also said, she liked Verrett less after she became "soprano sfogato". 
I don't know her well enough to say.
But I have read, her motivation was Norma and Callas. I like her reasons for sure :-D


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

BBSVK said:


> A classmate in my lecture group also said, she liked Verrett less after she became "soprano sfogato".
> I don't know her well enough to say.
> But I have read, her motivation was Norma and Callas. I like her reasons for sure :-D


There are conservatively 4 times more soprano roles than mezzo ones and hardly any other than Carmen, Orfeo and La Favorita where she plays the lead role and makes top pay so there is a financial motivation. Many more big voiced mezzos can do coloratura than sopranos because they can't be picky like sopranos.


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