# What would Beethoven have thought about Brahms and Wagner?



## oca2074 (Oct 29, 2018)

Imagine Brahms' idol is somehow resurrected and his hearing is restored. He gets to decide which side of the War of the Romantics is his true, worthy successor to resolve the dispute. The traditional school led by Brahms is judged against Wagner and the new Romantics. 

Whose music would impress him the most? Would it be Brahms since he was the his biggest fan and he tried so hard to fashion his music based on Beethoven? Or Wagner for his new revolutionary style of music and opera? 

Also what would he think about Mendelssohn, Chopin, Schumann, Berlioz, Liszt?


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## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

If Beethoven is resurrected he doesn't need a successor, he can compose again and be his own and only worthy successor


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## Highwayman (Jul 16, 2018)

He would have considered Wagner as his true successor because he would have been too jealous of Brahms` music.


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## ibrahim (Apr 29, 2017)

Schubert's short creative life coincided with LvB's late-middle period and late years. They lived within miles of each other. That's one "what if" that shouldn't have been a "what if." Why didn't Schubert have the courage to go up to Beethoven and show him his songs? Beethoven had the courage to show Haydn his works when the latter was visiting Bonn before his first trip to London. And remember, Beethoven was gracious about many composers now regarded as second rate -- Hummel & Cramer for example -- whom he regarded affectionately. He would have dug Schubert and even possibly helped him out.


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## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

I doubt that Beethoven in the 1820s with perennial financial and health trouble could have done much to help Schubert out materially. He might have encouraged him, though. Supposedly he saw some songs and had positive things to say about them.
As for Brahms and Wagner, I'd say they are each as different from Beethoven as they are from each other. I have no idea if the musical drama of Wagner with its usually very slow unfolding would have appealed to Beethoven at all. And while he might have respected or even admired the compositional skill of both, he'd probably also be a bit puzzled by Brahms' conservative stance.


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

For obvious reasons, Beethoven would have found Brahms readily comprehensible and Wagner less so. Saying more than that or anything about preferences would be idle speculation and sock-puppetry.


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## Luchesi (Mar 15, 2013)

I think LvB would gauge and evaluate any of those composers almost exactly as experts do today. What would be the differences? He was a visionary musician. 
I would like to hear how he would revise his opinions of older (previous) composers (Handel, Boccherini, Haydn, all of them) from our perspective today.


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## Bwv 1080 (Dec 31, 2018)

I think he would evaluate their music based upon his own aesthetic, and by that standard he would find them all lacking


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## Xisten267 (Sep 2, 2018)

I think that the point of this thread is to speculate, so here is my take on this: Beethoven would not only immediately recognize the geniuses of both Brahms and Wagner (as he did with basically every great master of composition still very famous that he had contact with, such as Palestrina, Bach, Handel, Haydn, Mozart and Schubert), but he would want to learn their techniques and try to apply them to his own music, creating something unique in the process, as usual to him. He would want to quote some of themes by them as well to demonstrate his respect for them.



ibrahim said:


> Schubert's short creative life coincided with LvB's late-middle period and late years. They lived within miles of each other. That's one "what if" that shouldn't have been a "what if." Why didn't Schubert have the courage to go up to Beethoven and show him his songs? Beethoven had the courage to show Haydn his works when the latter was visiting Bonn before his first trip to London. And remember, Beethoven was gracious about many composers now regarded as second rate -- Hummel & Cramer for example -- whom he regarded affectionately. He would have dug Schubert and even possibly helped him out.


Unfortunately it seems that Beethoven only discovered Schubert late in his life, but he was very complimentary to him when this happened and it seems that they could have been close friends if they had lived longer.

"Truly, the spark of divine genius resides in this Schubert!" - Ludwig van Beethoven (source here)

"When Schubert published his first substantial instrumental composition, the Variations on a French Theme for Piano Duet, op.10 (D 624) in 1822, it was dedicated to Beethoven from his ‘worshipper and admirer Franz Schubert’. This is strong phraseology even for a dedication. Beethoven is said to have played Schubert’s Variations with his nephew Karl and to have enjoyed them. Presumably Schubert, either directly or through his publishers Cappi and Diabelli, had obtained Beethoven’s permission to dedicate the work to him. In making this dedication, Schubert was also passing up the chance to receive the gratuity he would have expected from a noble dedicatee. The act of homage to the older composer was clearly more important to him than financial considerations." - source here.


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## neoshredder (Nov 7, 2011)

I think Beethoven would like Tchaikovsky the most. Or Dvorak.


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## justekaia (Jan 2, 2022)

i think first of all LVB would have reevaluated his own works and realised that they contain failures (a few of his symphonies, Fidelio, the second movement of his 4th piano concerto for example). On the other hand they contain summits that no single composer up to now has equalled (3rd symphony, several piano sonatas and of course the incredible string quartets that were so much ahead of his time). Although Beethoven tried his hand at most genres i believe he was not successful in his vocal compositions.He might admire some musical inventions in Wagner's music like the leitmotiv or the chromaticism but would be a poor judge of Wagner's operas. Regarding Brahms he would certainly love his chamber music (with the possible exception of the string quartets) and consider his symphonies a noble effort, that somehow fell short of the expectations of Brahms himself. Mendelssohn is a refined composer with fabulous chamber music and i am sure Beethoven would recognize that. Liszt was very influential but was only really successful in his piano music especially with his late visionary pieces. Chopin is a similar case.
I am certain LVB would adhere to Schumann's symphonies, his piano concerto and numerous piano pieces. What would however really interest me is what Beethoven would think of Bruckner's and Mahler's symphonies. I sincerely believe he would be delighted by the works of both composers.


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## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

justekaia said:


> i think first of all LVB would have reevaluated his own works and realised that they contain failures (a few of his symphonies, Fidelio, the second movement of his 4th piano concerto for example).


Why would he recognize them as failures (in which way do the fail their objective?), or what exactly impeded his (re)evaluation when/after he wrote these piece and would help him for a different evaluation with knowledge of e.g. Wagner or other mid-late 19th century music? Even granted the pieces you name are failures (for the sake of argument), I don't quite see how the failing would become clearer after hearing Wagner or Schumann or Brahms.


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## Xisten267 (Sep 2, 2018)

justekaia said:


> i think first of all LVB would have reevaluated his own works and realised that they contain failures (a few of his symphonies, Fidelio, the second movement of his 4th piano concerto for example).


If I was a composer, I would be very proud of myself if someday I was able to create something of such high level of musicality as these "failures" that never left the main classical music repertoire and never ceased to be intensely appreciated by so many listeners worldwide in two centuries. My impression is that most composers can't reach such level.


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

justekaia said:


> i think first of all LVB would have reevaluated his own works and realised that they contain failures (a few of his symphonies, Fidelio, the second movement of his 4th piano concerto for example).



Which symphonies fail? In what way? The second movement of the fourth concerto is ingenious and original. Sorry you can't hear that.


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## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

Regardless of what one thinks of certain Beethoven works, I just don't see how knowledge of later music could have "helped" Beethoven.
Beethoven set himself certain musical/aesthetic "problems" that were interesting and had interesting and captivating "solutions" at that time and against the background of contemporary (or somewhat earlier) music, that is from late 18th and early 19th century. They were so convincing that they transformed music and remained highly relevant for the remainder of the 19th century but I think one would get almost into time-travel-style logical inconsistencies if one hoped Beethoven could learn from Brahms how to "improve" some of his works.

Maybe one could say that Fidelio would be "better" if one purged all the singspiel elements and it was instead romantically "through-composed". It might be "better" in some way but it would also *be an entirely different piece* because a source of dramatic tension is precisely the clash of the "singspiel world" of Marzelline, Jacquino and Rocco with Leonore's heroism and the drama of the "getaway" plot.


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## SONNET CLV (May 31, 2014)

justekaia said:


> ...What would however really interest me is what Beethoven would think of Bruckner's and Mahler's symphonies. I sincerely believe he would be delighted by the works of both composers.


He most certainly would have smiled at the adagio theme of the Finale of Mahler's Third Symphony.

Then again, perhaps he would have frowned, and contacted an attorney.


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## justekaia (Jan 2, 2022)

SONNET CLV said:


> He most certainly would have smiled at the adagio theme of the Finale of Mahler's Third Symphony.
> 
> Then again, perhaps he would have frowned, and contacted an attorney.


I sincerely think that if Mozart had outlived Beethoven he would not have frowned , but engaged 10 attorneys to sue him. So a friendly wink from Mahler in his third symphony to the older Beethoven's slow movement of the ninth and later to the theme of sin and redemption of Wagner's Parsifal are minor sins. Bizet might also sue him because of Mahler's homage to his Adagietto from l'Arlésienne in his Adagietto from the fifth.
I am not sure you are familiar with Berio but he would probably have been sued as well after his great Sinfonia.
Il est temps de tirer la sonnette d'alarme pour arrêter toutes ces accusations.


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## justekaia (Jan 2, 2022)

EdwardBast said:


> Which symphonies fail? In what way? The second movement of the fourth concerto is ingenious and original. Sorry you can't hear that.


What i hear in the second movement of LVB's 4th concerto is a writer's block where LVB uses material from his Appassionata and from Gluck. The horrendous contrast between the staccato orchestral parts and the dull piano parts are another worry. That being said the first and third movements are out of this world. This could have been Beethoven's greatest piano concerto, but he failed in the second movement. That's why i prefer the third. The fifth is a warhorse which is a bit bombastic but is lovely in the right hands (like Arrau in 1968 live in Athens).


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## justekaia (Jan 2, 2022)

EdwardBast said:


> Which symphonies fail? In what way? The second movement of the fourth concerto is ingenious and original. Sorry you can't hear that.


1, 3, 5, 9 are great; forget about the rest


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## Nate Miller (Oct 24, 2016)

Clearly BMI wasn't a going concern back then. The guitar composer Mauro Giuliani, a friend of Beethoven's in Vienna, published a set of divertismenti, one of which has a striking resemblance to his friend Ludwig's G major sonata op 49. Also Giuliani published a set of rondos for piano and guitar, one of which is a dead rip off of Haydn's A major piano trio. He also published several sets of works that were all popular themes from Rossini's operas. Pretty sure he did those on approval, though

dont they say good composers borrow and great ones steal?


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## Nate Miller (Oct 24, 2016)

justekaia said:


> 1, 3, 5, 9 are great; forget about the rest



that's got to be an overstatement. The 2nd movement of the 7th is fantastic

you can have your opinion, but I disagree


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## justekaia (Jan 2, 2022)

Xisten267 said:


> If I was a composer, I would be very proud of myself if someday I was able to create something of such high level of musicality as these "failures" that never left the main classical music repertoire and never ceased to be intensely appreciated by so many listeners worldwide in two centuries. My impression is that most composers can't reach such level.


We are talking LVB, but even Brahms first and fourth are better than most Beethoven symphonies.


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## justekaia (Jan 2, 2022)

Nate Miller said:


> that's got to be an overstatement. The 2nd movement of the 7th is fantastic
> 
> you can have your opinion, but I disagree


yes, the 7th has its great moments, especially the 2nd movement; i fully agree with your statement


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## Nate Miller (Oct 24, 2016)

justekaia said:


> yes, the 7th has its great moments, especially the 2nd movement; i fully agree with your statement



I can see where you are coming from, too....start to finish, all movements in the symphony as a whole and all

its funny but it seems like its the 2nd movements of his symphonies that are always my favorites. The 2nd movement of the 5th as well, but the 2nd movement of the 7th is one of my favorite movements all time, so I couldn't just sit here and "forget" that one 🙂


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## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

justekaia said:


> We are talking LVB, but even Brahms first and fourth are better than most Beethoven symphonies.


Now, that's just silly and Brahms would probably have been one of the first to disagree. (And "even", i.e. Brahms' 2nd and 3rd are better than the 4th...?)
But it is still beside the point because how do you think knowledge of Brahms' or Wagner's music could have "helped" Beethoven with his many failures?


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## justekaia (Jan 2, 2022)

Kreisler jr said:


> Now, that's just silly and Brahms would probably have been one of the first to disagree. (And "even", i.e. Brahms' 2nd and 3rd are better than the 4th...?)
> But it is still beside the point because how do you think knowledge of Brahms' or Wagner's music could have "helped" Beethoven with his many failures?


i had this argument before about the Brahms's symphonies with other members but i talked to Carlos K. and he convinced me; he only recorded the 4th and is one of the greatest conductors of all time; so plse do not talk to me about the second and the third which have great moments, but which are not entirely successful; the first was a work of great labour for Brahms and I am so glad for him that he managed to produce a strong, superb symphony
i never said LVB had many failures and i herewith state that he is the greatest composer of all times; but LVB had weaknesses because of his physical and mental condition, not because of his abilities as a composer;
the OP is about Beethoven assessing Brahms and Wagner; i have answered this point in a previous post; 
plse refrain from calling anybody silly; it is so old fashioned


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## Xisten267 (Sep 2, 2018)

justekaia said:


> We are talking LVB, but even Brahms first and fourth are better than most Beethoven symphonies.


I may agree with you that they probably (in my view at least) are more accomplished works than Beethoven's symphonies Nos. 1, 2 and 4. But I think that symphonies 3 and 5 to 8 by the master of Bonn are ingenious works and it's not clear to me which are better or not than the four Brahms' symphonies - and this without even defining "better" here - although I obviously have my own preferences concerning all of them. Each of them was revolutionary in it's own way. Also, a symphony that is not in the same level of a Brahms' symphony may still be excellent, and I would describe all Beethoven symphonies as being very far from "failures", considering that, as I said, they never left the classical music canon, something that can't be said about hundreds, maybe thousands of other symphonies by other composers. If your point is that even Beethoven has weak works, I agree with you, but I ask you to select some of his minor unpublished works to base this claim, such as, say, WoO 29, and not some of classical music's most famous and admired masterpieces such as _Fidelio_, any of his symphonies, or his piano concerto No. 4.



justekaia said:


> 1, 3, 5, 9 are great; forget about the rest


All of them are great, and have been subject of essays and books by many musicologists and important musicians. If you somehow only enjoy Nos. 1, 3, 5 and 9, then show some humility and say "1, 3, 5, 9 I like; not the others" or something.


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## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

justekaia said:


> i had this argument before about the Brahms's symphonies with other members but i talked to Carlos K. and he convinced me; he only recorded the 4th and is one of the greatest conductors of all time; so plse do not talk to me about the second and the third which have great moments, but which are not entirely successful;


You seem to have a problem with your own logic. I didn't suggest that Brahms 2+3 were better. You wrote "even Brahms 1+4 were better than most Beethoven symphonies", see above. This is wrong in itself. But the "even" clearly suggests that Brahms 1+4 are not as good as 2+3, i.e. these weaker Brahms suffice to be better than "most Beethoven symphonies".



> i never said LVB had many failures and i herewith state that he is the greatest composer of all times; but LVB had weaknesses because of his physical and mental condition, not because of his abilities as a composer;


This last statement is wrong. Give me one historically documented case where Beethoven's physical or mental condition impacted his compositions (and you suggest that this was frequently the case, it was not, health issues might have led to him taking longer for certain pieces but it never led to him publishing weak pieces, almost all weaker pieces are occasional or early later published for making money). 
And "many" is not the point but if you think that about half of Beethoven's symphonies are not very good (and that the 1st is better than 6-8...) and that the 4th piano concerto is marred by the masterstroke of its highly unconventional central movement, you are simply missing A LOT about Beethoven and I cannot take your positive opinions on him seriously either.

The core problem here but this was in the original question starting the thread, is the ahistorical vantage point. This is common in many "rankings" and similar debates on the internet. Wagner had a completely different focus than the other two composers, being almost only interested in musical theatre. And Beethoven and Brahms lived in very different epochs with Brahms having a special relationship to the older composer who had set the paradigm for the musical culture Brahms had grown up in. They also had very different temperaments. Brahms was utterly "sentimental" (in the technical sense from Schiller), i.e. hyper-aware of the past and tradition and also filled with longing for the times when one could write music more naively and not justify oneself against 300 years of tradition since Palestrina. 
Beethoven was aware of some of the musical past and his position in history but he was so headstrong that he didn't feel like a student before an examination board. This is clear already from his opp. 1+2 and his falling out with Haydn about the c minor trio.


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## superhorn (Mar 23, 2010)

Apparently, Schubert was so much in awe of Beethoven he felt to shy and timid to try to approach the great man in person .


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