# Famous Pieces composers regretted composing...



## vtpoet (Jan 17, 2019)

The discussion of Ravel reminded me of this. I think Ravel regretted having composed Bolero, but I'm not certain. I know Elgar profoundly regretted composing Pomp & Circumstance. Mendelssohn wanted to make his string symphonies disappear (although they aren't quite so famous). Carnival of the Animals was Saint Saëns effort to troll his critics and he later "prohibited public performance of the work during his lifetime, feeling that its frivolity would damage his standing as a serious composer." It's the skeleton in the closet that goes dancing in the streets despite a composer's effort to keep it locked up...


----------



## Livly_Station (Jan 8, 2014)

vtpoet said:


> The discussion of Ravel reminded me of this. I think Ravel regretted having composed Bolero, but I'm not certain.


I think Ravel's own dislike for the Bolero is overstated. There's some truth to it, I believe, but at the same time it feels like he's always being sarcastic or facetious. At one instance, Ravel even said _"I've only written one masterpiece -- Bolero. Unfortunately, there is no music in it."_ It's so over the top, both in the compliment and in the self-deprecation, lol.

It should be said that Ravel was somewhat of a "formalist" since he cared deeply about contrast and transformation in his pieces, which are usually associated with narrative depth. Bolero challenges all of these classicist conceptions, so it's easy to see why Ravel see those traits as "flaws" and "lack of music". However, funnily enough, it's the uniform and constant nature of the piece that makes it much more contemporary, not only because of minimalism, but even from a popular point of view.


----------



## Animal the Drummer (Nov 14, 2015)

Elgar didn't regret composing "Pomp and Circumstance". What he regretted were what he regarded as the somewhat jingoistic "Land of Hope and Glory" words and sentiments attached by others to the big tune - which he was very proud of - in March no.1.


----------



## vtpoet (Jan 17, 2019)

Animal the Drummer said:


> Elgar didn't regret composing "Pomp and Circumstance". What he regretted were what he regarded as the somewhat jingoistic "Land of Hope and Glory" words and sentiments attached by others to the big tune - which he was very proud of - in March no.1.


The consensus is that he regretted the context in which his tune was thrust, as you say, but also that he grew tired of the work and resented how it overshadowed his other works.

Also, Tchaikovsky hated the 1812 overture calling it: "'very loud and noisy and completely without artistic merit".


----------



## RICK RIEKERT (Oct 9, 2017)

Wagner considered _Rienzi_ "very repugnant", an uninspired procession of 'hymns, processions and a musical clash of arms', though he felt others should be suitably astonished that he should have been able to compose it at all.

Rachmaninoff regretted the popularity of his _Prelude in C-sharp minor_ and quipped, "Many, many times I wish I had never written it."

It seems Carl Orff regretted everything he wrote before _Carmina Burana_. He told his publisher to "destroy everything that I have written so far and which you've unfortunately published… My collected works now begin with _Carmina Burana_."


----------



## MarkW (Feb 16, 2015)

Mendelssohn also disliked the Italian Symphony for some reason. And Grieg disliked In the Hall of the Mountain King from Pier Gynt. Well never know what Brahms disliked.


----------



## Ethereality (Apr 6, 2019)

Brahms disliked the French 

Tchaikovsky disliked The Nutcracker.


----------



## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

"In later life Wagner belittled and disowned the B flat Sonata with uncustomary vigour. It seems likely that he was attempting to emulate his idol but knew he had fallen far short"
https://www.google.ca/books/edition/Wagner/HeM9DwAAQBAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&pg=PA282


----------



## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

vtpoet said:


> Mendelssohn wanted to make his string symphonies disappear (although they aren't quite so famous).


Can you give a source for this? They weren't even published afaik, so hardly anyone would have formed an impression of Mendelssohn from his works as a young teenager and why should he be ashamed of very well composed "practice pieces"? He was highly self critical, though, that's why the eventual 5th symphony (Reformation) was published only posthumuously and I think he made also some flippant remark about a movement from one of his piano concertos.


----------



## RICK RIEKERT (Oct 9, 2017)

In an article in Das Bärenreiter-Magazin, Christopher Hogwood writes about Mendelssohn's "self-critical, sometimes overly destructive" propensities: 

"Before embarking on a study of Mendelssohn’s symphonies and overtures in order to prepare new Urtext editions, I had the notion that he, like Mozart, had spent a short lifetime effortlessly turning out a sequence of polished masterpieces which were immediately published and praised. The true picture turns out to be very different: Mendelssohn, in his own words, suffered from "Revisionskrankheit" and could not look at any page of his music without being driven to revise and alter it – even against the advice of his family and all musical colleagues. The result is that multiple versions exist of almost every piece he wrote, many of them performed but then abandoned in disgust. Even pieces as familiar to us as the Italian and Reformation symphonies the composer refused to have published and even declared that they should be burnt!"


----------



## progmatist (Apr 3, 2021)

Dvorak regretted all of his early works, and would have just as soon everyone forgot them. Hence, the confusion in numbering his symphonies. Some renumber 5 though 9 as 1 through 5.


----------



## ORigel (May 7, 2020)

After Brahms' Double Concerto was lukewarmly received, the composer ceased writing orchestral music. What a loss!

Yet, besides _some_ weaker sections in the first movement, the Double Concerto is excellent. I prefer its slow movement to many of Brahms' other orchestral slow movements.


----------



## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

RICK RIEKERT said:


> "Before embarking on a study of Mendelssohn's symphonies and overtures in order to prepare new Urtext editions, I had the notion that he, like Mozart, had spent a short lifetime effortlessly turning out a sequence of polished masterpieces which were immediately published and praised. The true picture turns out to be very different: Mendelssohn, in his own words, suffered from "Revisionskrankheit" and could not look at any page of his music without being driven to revise and alter it - even against the advice of his family and all musical colleagues. The result is that multiple versions exist of almost every piece he wrote, many of them performed but then abandoned in disgust. Even pieces as familiar to us as the Italian and Reformation symphonies the composer refused to have published and even declared that they should be burnt!"


I find it odd many people actually believe that - the pieces that he is said to have written at a certain young age (the quintet, octet; at age 16) - he actually finished/finalized them and published them at that age. But why would he have needed to? He was living in an era where artists weren't under pressure of strict "deadlines" like that.
With the advent of Romanticism, composers gained greater freedom and philosophical/individual ideas as artists, but at the same time lost (I'm not sure how to describe it exactly) the "pre-Romantic craftsman-like professionalism", the ability to churn out quality music at a pace required by employers. 








these works written by composers who were then 19 years old at the time; they didn't take years to write, only a few weeks. For them, music-making was more like "trade", but not really "art" (of personal expression) in the sense that the Romantics thought. 
This is also related to the reason why there aren't any really good pre-Romantic examples to discuss in this thread. And it's also one of the reasons why I think it's not fair to compare Mozart and Beethoven (for instance) based on the number of works they wrote, or the number of genres they worked with.


----------



## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

ORigel said:


> After Brahms' Double Concerto was lukewarmly received, the composer ceased writing orchestral music. What a loss!


I am not sure there was anything lost. I doubt Brahms would have composed a 5th symphony had the double concerto been received more enthusiastically. I read that some sketches that could have been for a 5th symphony were used for the concerto (or for the quintet op.111), never that Brahms abolished a 5th symphony after the concerto. I think the elderly Brahms "retreating" to mostly chamber and piano music was a general tendency, caused by age and maybe some depression. And he wrote some great pieces nevertheless. I am not sure I'd want to swap the clarinet quintet with a 5th symphony...


----------



## RobertJTh (Sep 19, 2021)

Mendelssohn only regarded his (what we call now) 3rd "Scottish" symphony as a piece worth its salt.
He regretted publishing the 1st and tried to repress performances of it at all cost. One can see why.
The 2nd shouldn't be called a symphony, Mendelssohn didn't, it's a cantata.
He planned to revise the Italian symphony and maybe publish it as his 2nd, but that revision never materialized (the work itself doesn't give any clue why it would need improvement). And the 5th was a work that he considered just an occasional piece, and not a very good one too. Add the 12 or 13 string symphonies (with the 8th existing in a full orchestra arrangement too, so that's basically his real 1st symphony...) and you've got one big mess of a symphonic oeuvre.

Beethoven wasn't this self-critical but the one thing he hated was the popularity of some of his mediocre pieces, like the Septet, and to a certain extent the Moonlight Sonata. Or Wellington's Sieg, when the public liked that piece of **** much better than his 7th and 8th symphonies.


----------



## vtpoet (Jan 17, 2019)

Kreisler jr said:


> Can you give a source for this? They weren't even published afaik, so hardly anyone would have formed an impression of Mendelssohn from his works as a young teenager and why should he be ashamed of very well composed "practice pieces"?


Yikes. I've studied music history at the conservatory, and then have read dozens of books, and then I have a habit of reading every CD booklet I own (which is all anyone really needs to read). I'm not bragging, it's just that this information floats around and then I have no idea where it came from. But because it's fair to ask, I found this reference from, you guessed it, a CD booklet: _The Complete Symphonies, Concertos, String Symphonies_ on the BIS label (mainly purchased for the Brautigam and then the Amsterdam Sinfonietta). But anyway, the booklet has this to say:

"As time went by, however, Mendelssohn came to regard his youthful works with increasing contempt, and it was to a large extent thanks to Fanny that the works came to be placed in safe hands at the Prussian State Library."


----------



## vtpoet (Jan 17, 2019)

hammeredklavier said:


> I find it odd many people actually believe that - the pieces that he is said to have written at a certain young age (the quintet, octet; at age 16) - he actually finished/finalized them and published them at that age. But why would he have needed to? He was living in an era where artists weren't under pressure of strict "deadlines" like that.


Yes, but that's all besides the point. Just because an artist has published a given work doesn't mean he or she might never see ways to improve the work or even decide they dislike it. The point you make as to composers treating their work as "a trade" has some merit, but you also have to consider the temperament of the individual composer.



hammeredklavier said:


> This is also related to the reason why there aren't any really good pre-Romantic examples to discuss in this thread.


That's simply not true. That I'm aware of, there's no quote of Bach's suggesting that he regretted or disliked any of his music, but there are examples of his having revised already published works-of polishing and reconsidering. Corelli was famously perfectionistic and tried to have all his works destroyed before he died. Unico Wilhelm van Wassenaer, whose concertos were long thought to be by Pergolesi, was also fiercely self-critical and tried to have his works destroyed. Artistic ambition and self-critcism were hardly an invention of the Romantics.


----------



## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

vtpoet said:


> you also have to consider the temperament of the individual composer.
> Corelli was famously perfectionistic and tried to have all of his works destroyed before he died.


Yeah, actually, I'm not totally certain, but I think C.P.E. Bach also destroyed his early works, but I don't think he ever verbally criticized his own work like a Romantic would have.


----------



## vtpoet (Jan 17, 2019)

hammeredklavier said:


> Yeah, actually, I'm not totally certain, but I think C.P.E. Bach also destroyed his early works, but I don't think he ever verbally criticized his own work like a Romantic would have.


I think about that often, as regards CPE. Every once in a while one hears one of his surviving early works, like this:






And one weeps for what was lost. Yes, they were derivative and knock-offs of his father's music, but damn. He was also, in my opinion, his father's greatest student-greater possibly than WF Bach.


----------



## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

There were also 19th century composers composing almost as facile as others in the 18th century, e.g. Donizetti or Joh. Strauss and probably quite a few more lesser known ones. Raff's and Reinecke's opus numbers run into the 200s.


----------



## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

RobertJTh said:


> ......Beethoven wasn't this self-critical but the one thing he hated was the popularity of some of his mediocre pieces, like the Septet, and to a certain extent the Moonlight Sonata.


Beethoven may not have ranked these works highly, but to me, neither of them are mediocre....


----------



## RICK RIEKERT (Oct 9, 2017)

Although Beethoven defended _Wellington's Victory_ against its many critics, telling one ""what I **** (scheisse) is better than anything you could ever think up!", he nevertheless repeatedly disparaged the work himself.


----------



## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

I doubt any composer regretted writing a work that made him a lot of money - even if he was personally sick of hearing it. But some composers destroyed works they did not wish to see the light of day.


----------



## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

Grieg grew to resent the his second string quartet, presumably because he was unable to complete it. He said it 'just sits there unfinished - like an old Norwegian cheese...'


----------



## progmatist (Apr 3, 2021)

SanAntone said:


> I doubt any composer regretted writing a work that made him a lot of money - even if he was personally sick of hearing it. But some composers destroyed works they did not wish to see the light of day.


A prime example being Sibelius burning his Symphony No. 8.


----------



## Coach G (Apr 22, 2020)

I read that Tchaikovsky was very self-critical of his own works. Despite his ability to seemingly compose a catchy melody without even trying, he was very concerned with form, getting from point A to point B in a way that is seamless. Tchaikovsky's favorite composer was Mozart who he once identified as a "Musical Christ"; so I guess if you're going to use Mozart as your benchmark you're bound to be disappointed.


----------



## Machiavel (Apr 12, 2010)

Kreisler jr said:


> I am not sure there was anything lost. I doubt Brahms would have composed a 5th symphony had the double concerto been received more enthusiastically. I read that some sketches that could have been for a 5th symphony were used for the concerto (or for the quintet op.111), never that Brahms abolished a 5th symphony after the concerto. I think the elderly Brahms "retreating" to mostly chamber and piano music was a general tendency, caused by age and maybe some depression. And he wrote some great pieces nevertheless. I am not sure I'd want to swap the clarinet quintet with a 5th symphony...


Brahms did intend at first that the second string quintet would be a symphony. He changed his mind.

Peter Klatsow YouTube channel, a conductor as orchestrated the work in the manner of Brahms

3 movement are to be found with the other coming at some point. Last message 1 year ago and his channel is like 400.

If all talkclassical members went on his channel to subscribe and post maybe he will put the fourth faster seeing the interest.


----------



## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

Machiavel said:


> If all talkclassical members went on his channel to subscribe and post maybe he will put the fourth faster seeing the interest.


There's no need to.



Machiavel said:


> Peter Klatsow YouTube channel, a conductor as orchestrated the work in the manner of Brahms
> 3 movement are to be found with the other coming at some point. Last message 1 year ago and his channel is like 400.


AI will do it sooner or later.


----------



## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

vtpoet said:


> Carnival of the Animals was Saint Saëns effort to troll his critics and he later "prohibited public performance of the work during his lifetime, feeling that its frivolity would damage his standing as a serious composer."


Its subsequent popularity meant that for some, it became too lowbrow to take seriously (albeit _The Swan_ was the only bit which Saint-Saens did publish).

_"What's he playing?"
"Some Saint-Saens bull **** "_








Animal the Drummer said:


> Elgar didn't regret composing "Pomp and Circumstance". What he regretted were what he regarded as the somewhat jingoistic "Land of Hope and Glory" words and sentiments attached by others to the big tune - which he was very proud of - in March no.1.


He had an ambivalent relationship with it, no doubt coloured by the huge loss of life in WWI. Holst had similar feelings towards the patriotic hymn _I vow to thee my country_, set to music from his _Jupiter_.

It was customary for Elgar's generation to compose both light and serious classical music. He scored another hit with _Salut d'amour_, which exists in many arrangements and is still among his best known pieces.



RICK RIEKERT said:


> Rachmaninoff regretted the popularity of his _Prelude in C-sharp minor_ and quipped, "Many, many times I wish I had never written it."


He sold the copyright early on for a trivial amount (similar to Sibelius' _Valse Triste_). The irony was that it had became such a cliche that he was required to play it at every recital, while critics like Adorno judged him to be pandering to lowbrow taste. With his usual stoic sense of humour, Rachmaninov referred to the prelude as "it." This wasn't the only instance of him falling between two chairs, but it was the one which hurt the most.

Rachmaninov and Stravinsky, both exiles, met in the USA. They jokingly reminisced about how much money they'd lost, Rachmaninov largely thanks to the prelude and Stravinsky because his three popular ballets where published in Russia (which of course had a change of government in 1917, which impacted on royalties).


----------



## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

elgars ghost said:


> Grieg grew to resent the his second string quartet, presumably because he was unable to complete it. He said it 'just sits there unfinished - like an old Norwegian cheese...'


There have been several completions that seem to work decently, using sketches and I think sometimes material from one of the violin sonatas.


----------

