# Male Goat Odes



## Crudblud

Yes, I'm back again with more schtuff than you can schake a schtick at. Okay, not really, but 13 minutes ain't bad, eh? It's written for clarinet, bass clarinet, cimbasso, and theorbo, and as usual for computer performance.

mp3

FLAC

Stream on Soundcloud

P.S.: SoundCloud sucks, I encourage you to actually download the mp3 or FLAC to hear it properly.


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## Vasks

Glad to see you're still creating. Will listen later.


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## violadude

As soon as I saw the title I knew it was a Crudblud original 

Awesome as always. I really like how at any moment there is so much going on. It's always very stimulating.

I don't have much to say in the way of criticism, maybe I will think of something after listening more.


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## Vasks

Curious as to how the quasi-reed squeaks and buzzes are achieved but equally curious as to why you'd want them since in an ideal live performance they wouldn't be wanted.


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## Crudblud

Vasks said:


> Curious as to how the quasi-reed squeaks and buzzes are achieved but equally curious as to why you'd want them since in an ideal live performance they wouldn't be wanted.


For a general answer to your question: I like squeaks and buzzes. However, I'm not sure exactly what you're referring to, perhaps you could give some examples?

Furthermore, my music is a kind of electronic music that is not a performing art. As opposed to classical music, in which the composition is a sheet of instructions relayed to human musicians for the purposes of live performance, my compositions are essentially direct actions upon sound, which is to say the final audio output is precisely as I want it to be. So what is or is not desirable in live performance is not applicable here, and for me there is no conceivable reason to write for a computer as one would a human.


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## Crudblud

Oh, and thanks violadude! I'm glad you enjoyed the piece.


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## Vasks

Crudblud said:


> which is to say the final audio output is precisely as I want it to be. So what is or is not desirable in live performance is not applicable here, and for me there is no conceivable reason to write for a computer as one would a human.


Deep down I get that, but when I listen, what I hear is so close to being a regular live instrumental ensemble piece (in part because you've put so much much detail into the way each -->"instrument"<-- sounds that I have a hard time wrapping my head around your concept. But that's my problem not yours. So while I keep hoping that some non-live instrumental effects would be included to make it obvious that this a "computer" piece, I really need to stop thinking that way.


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## TurnaboutVox

I downloaded the FLAC and enjoyed listening to this very much, thanks Crudblud. I thought it was a _regular live instrumental ensemble piece_ actually. (I listened before I read).


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## Crudblud

Vasks said:


> Deep down I get that, but when I listen, what I hear is so close to being a regular live instrumental ensemble piece (in part because you've put so much much detail into the way each -->"instrument"<-- sounds that I have a hard time wrapping my head around your concept. But that's my problem not yours. So while I keep hoping that some non-live instrumental effects would be included to make it obvious that this a "computer" piece, I really need to stop thinking that way.


Oh, no, I think it's interesting to discuss. I suppose most people associate computers with the mechanical and cold MIDI mock-ups often presented as proof of concept for a piece for orchestra or whatever, but for me the computer is wasted on stuff like that, it can produce renders of such detail and precision, not to mention going beyond the limitations of live performance, that I think it should be embraced as a full fledged means of composition and presentation in itself.

As for "non-live instrumental effects" how about the parts in which the monophonic instruments play chords of two, three, four notes; the finale with the simultaneous trills; several parts in which the bass clarinet plays in the upper range of a normal clarinet; the theorbo part itself. With a live ensemble using the same instruments, none of that could be done, and those are only the more obviously impossible parts, there's lots more stuff in there that would be unachievable in a live setting.


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## Crudblud

TurnaboutVox said:


> I downloaded the FLAC and enjoyed listening to this very much, thanks Crudblud. I thought it was a _regular live instrumental ensemble piece_ actually. (I listened before I read).


Going in with as little information as possible is always a good idea, I think. Thanks for listening!


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## Ian Moore

Your computer instrumental samples are quite good, especially at the beginning. What software are you using? Which midi player? How are you producing such convincing acoustic sound?


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## Crudblud

Ian Moore said:


> Your computer instrumental samples are quite good, especially at the beginning. What software are you using? Which midi player? How are you producing such convincing acoustic sound?


I use Cubase 5 with the Kontakt 4 sampler. I'll be needing to upgrade soon, as all the latest stuff is coming out exclusively for Kontakt 5 these days. For this piece I used BestService's Chris Hein Horns Vol. 4 for the winds and Soniccouture's Conservatoire Collection for the theorbo.

The environment was created with a few different components, using Cool Edit Pro 2.0, which is an old version of Adobe Audition. First of all, I took advantage of the theorbo's round robin samples (it alternates between up stroke/down stroke samples for each velocity range of each note) and rendered the track twice, then mixed them into one track, the result being a rich and slightly bottom-heavy sound. The instruments were then panned to the left (cimbasso, clarinet) and right (bass clarinet, theorbo). I used very wide stereo field expansion on all four instruments separately to create a spacious sound while maintaining the original staging. After that the tracks were mixed down and a fairly subtle reverb was applied, that was done so that the reverb tails of each instrument react to each other in the stereo field, as opposed to reverbing them individually and having them appear to be playing in separate rooms.

I hope that answers your questions.


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## Ian Moore

Have you done any work like this with orchestral strings?


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## Crudblud

Ian Moore said:


> Have you done any work like this with orchestral strings?


No. Orchestral composition doesn't appeal to me much right now, and it is economically infeasible in terms of the libraries and hardware I would have to purchase in order to do it.


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## ptr

I've listened a few times, and this is very Cazazz, me likes... Very flowing, everything builds quite naturally! I for one was not fooled in to think that it is "live", there is something with the phrasing of the clarinets that seems slightly "superhuman" (I almost wrote unnatural, but the lack of breathing gives it that "right" unhuman feel), and the fingering and tuning of the Theorbo is a bit to high strung as well to fell acoustically natural, anyway that's beside the point for Your music! (as usual I don't have any feedback on Your compositional techniques other then I like what I hear..  )

One of the best rendering of "midi" I have heard, started listening on headphones and maybe feels that everything comes to close, to much in the head; I played a bit with the flac's a bit in an AES* adding some room (a small wooden church) and this made it quite more inviting to listen to on headphones (I hope You forgive me for indulging in my own curiosity!), playing both versions over my speaker system the closeness is less poignant, but somehow I still like this music reproduced with a larger environment added, this in turn makes me think (and several of Your pieces gives me this feeling) that they should be listened/experienced to diffused in a proper multi speaker environment (like the rooms/concert halls that can be found in many centres for EAM) 

Just to boost Your ego, I always look forward to a new Cazazza piece knowing It will give me a fab joyride! (I've listened to both versions of "OAT" as well, and my reaction and reply to it would be the same as for this!)

/ptr

AES = Audio Editing Software


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## Ian Moore

> No. Orchestral composition doesn't appeal to me much right now, and it is economically infeasible in terms of the libraries and hardware I would have to purchase in order to do it.


There is a free orchestral library called "Sonatina Symphony Orchestra". It's very basic but it might be worth a look if you ever get interested in orchestral writing. I don't think it is being updated anymore. I have just been discussing it with someone else on this forum.

http://sso.mattiaswestlund.net/ (Sonatina Symphony Orchestra)


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## Crudblud

ptr said:


> I've listened a few times, and this is very Cazazz, me likes... Very flowing, everything builds quite naturally! I for one was not fooled in to think that it is "live", there is something with the phrasing of the clarinets that seems slightly "superhuman" (I almost wrote unnatural, but the lack of breathing gives it that "right" unhuman feel), and the fingering and tuning of the Theorbo is a bit to high strung as well to fell acoustically natural, anyway that's beside the point for Your music! (as usual I don't have any feedback on Your compositional techniques other then I like what I hear..  )
> 
> One of the best rendering of "midi" I have heard, started listening on headphones and maybe feels that everything comes to close, to much in the head; I played a bit with the flac's a bit in an AES* adding some room (a small wooden church) and this made it quite more inviting to listen to on headphones (I hope You forgive me for indulging in my own curiosity!), playing both versions over my speaker system the closeness is less poignant, but somehow I still like this music reproduced with a larger environment added, this in turn makes me think (and several of Your pieces gives me this feeling) that they should be listened/experienced to diffused in a proper multi speaker environment (like the rooms/concert halls that can be found in many centres for EAM)
> 
> Just to boost Your ego, I always look forward to a new Cazazza piece knowing It will give me a fab joyride! (I've listened to both versions of "OAT" as well, and my reaction and reply to it would be the same as for this!)
> 
> /ptr
> 
> AES = Audio Editing Software


Thank you very much, ptr!

I'm not a great sound engineer, I do my best to make a mix that works for me and hope it translates okay for other people, but really I'm not the right person for the job. Feel free to post your mix here, if you'd like, I'd be interested to hear it.


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## ptr

I don't think that I'm a great engineer of sound either but I have decent ears, and what I added was just one of the pre-sets that was available in the software I have (A quite old version of *Samplitude* using the included *variverb pro*), I choose the small wooden church in favour of "large cathedral" just because is made more sense to my ears (dunno it its any better, but has more room, especially on OAT, the vibraphone & marimba really enjoy a longer reverb time)..

You can download some mp3's of my versions og Goat and Oat from *mega*!

I'll leave it up there until You ask me to take it down!

/ptr


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## Crudblud

ptr said:


> I don't think that I'm a great engineer of sound either but I have decent ears, and what I added was just one of the pre-sets that was available in the software I have (A quite old version of *Samplitude* using the included *variverb pro*), I choose the small wooden church in favour of "large cathedral" just because is made more sense to my ears (dunno it its any better, but has more room, especially on OAT, the vibraphone & marimba really enjoy a longer reverb time)..
> 
> You can download some mp3's of my versions og Goat and Oat from *mega*!
> 
> I'll leave it up there until You ask me to take it down!
> 
> /ptr


To my ears these are kind of difficult to listen to as the detail seems lost in a sea of reverb tails, but if it works for you I say stick with it! And feel free to leave it up for as long as you like, I certainly won't ask you to remove it.


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## ptr

Crudblud said:


> To my ears these are kind of difficult to listen to as the detail seems lost in a sea of reverb tails, but if it works for you I say stick with it! And feel free to leave it up for as long as you like, I certainly won't ask you to remove it.


You're quite right! I'm one of those nuts that eagerly sacrifice detail for the feel of an acoustic space. And as I said, it is by no way perfect or better, just different... and as I also said, I'd love to hear Your music properly diffused in an acoustic space tailored for reproduction of EAM! (One of my greatest musical experiences (bar none) was hearing Berio's "Vissage" in this kind of environment, closest thing to having an LSD trip I've ever had and I've never touched anything stronger then Caskstrenght Whiskey..  )

I'll leave it up, but I think that the site removes things when it has not been downloaded in a month!

/ptr


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## clavichorder

Crudblud, very nice work.



Crudblud said:


> I use Cubase 5 with the Kontakt 4 sampler. I'll be needing to upgrade soon, as all the latest stuff is coming out exclusively for Kontakt 5 these days. For this piece I used BestService's Chris Hein Horns Vol. 4 for the winds and Soniccouture's Conservatoire Collection for the theorbo.


Where did you find these programs and in order to make the instruments sound as realistic as you do, does it require anything else other than a good ability to understand the program? Are they available for download and is there a steep learning curve for using them?

You have inspired me.


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## Crudblud

clavichorder said:


> Crudblud, very nice work.
> 
> Where did you find these programs and in order to make the instruments sound as realistic as you do, does it require anything else other than a good ability to understand the program? Are they available for download and is there a steep learning curve for using them?
> 
> You have inspired me.


Hi clavi, I appreciate the kind words.

A friend introduced me to Cubase and Kontakt when I was looking for something better than Reason, which I was using up until the start of 2012. Of all the stuff I use regularly these two are the most expensive, or Cubase is, at least. There are editions (usually called "Cubase Elements") you can get which are much cheaper, but I'm not sure if they are cheaper because they come with a reduced feature set or if they eschew the stock sound libraries. If the former, there are tons of features in the main edition I have never needed to use; if the latter, those stock libraries are not worth paying for anyway. There is also a completely free though less flexible edition of Kontakt available called Kontakt Player.

The libraries and the companies that made them were things I found out about from doing research on audio production forums; obviously they do cost money, but for the quality of the samples and construction of the instruments they are very reasonably priced. For instance, the Soniccouture Conservatoire Collection is listed at $199 on their website, it features ten instruments sampled in high detail and excellent quality. Inevitably, however, the matter of feasibility comes down to how good your computer hardware is, unfortunately it is quite expensive to get together a good build for this kind of work, I just barely manage it with my old computer, and sometimes I have to employ considerable workarounds to get things the way I want them.

I'd say it's difficult to compose this way as it is to compose in any way, but it is fairly intuitive and will not require guided study like standard notation. I know a lot of people think "computer aided composition" is pressing a few buttons and watching it go, like a toy, but here's an example of the kind of detail that goes into a finished piece. Obviously this is _Male Goat Odes_ in sequencer format: you can see the tempo track, the section markers, and finally the instrument tracks, which contain note and - in the case of the theorbo - CC values, the latter of which allow me to control certain aspects of phrasing (in this case I am using the modulation value (CC1) to control the hand position, a feature specific to the instrument which provides access to four different sets of samples, each containing two samples per note per velocity range). There are 128 CC values per channel, some of which correspond to common digital keyboard controls (pitch bend, vibrato, sustain etc.) some of which are blank and can be set-up to do custom tasks (e.g.: I could use Kontakt's custom CC dialogue to set-up legato switches on the winds, so that I could have sustained chords, or stacking notes in otherwise legato-oriented articulations*), and others which are designed to send signals to other devices and mainly used in live applications.

I hope that answers your questions, feel free to ask more, of course. I wish you luck in your future musical endeavours, whatever technologies and methods you choose to employ. Lastly, thanks again for listening to my work, I'm glad you like it.

*What I actually did was to use native non-legato articulations, but that was just an example of a solution I could have used if I'd needed to. I did use legato switches on my other recent piece, _Oat_, which is actually much more complicated under-the-hood than this piece.


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## Jobis

Love it! Think this is my favourite of your pieces so far, it sounds very contemplative at points, which I like. At other points the instruments are so expressive on an almost uncannily human level; there are audible sighs and groans from the clarinets. The use of just intonation in the theorbo gives a really cool effect too. 

I'd be really interested to hear more about your compositional process in terms of harmony and counterpoint. Do you still use serial methods? If you could post/link to a post or PM me about it i'd be really grateful.


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## Crudblud

Jobis said:


> Love it! Think this is my favourite of your pieces so far, it sounds very contemplative at points, which I like. At other points the instruments are so expressive on an almost uncannily human level; there are audible sighs and groans from the clarinets. The use of just intonation in the theorbo gives a really cool effect too.
> 
> I'd be really interested to hear more about your compositional process in terms of harmony and counterpoint. Do you still use serial methods? If you could post/link to a post or PM me about it i'd be really grateful.


Thank you!

Serial organisation was really only used for _Urgynes_, I wanted to work with it for that piece but I didn't want it to become integral to my work. Aside from that, there is a brief part in _Frozen Bob's Estranged Wife_ which uses a tone row, but it is quickly discarded after the fact. It was something I was interested in using at the time, and while I may work with it again in the future I don't really have much use for it right now. I have not used any serial techniques since _Urgynes_, but working with them taught me a lot.

I don't really have a process. I may have said this elsewhere before, but any time I'm looking at a given piece and thinking "so this is how my music works" I'll quickly recall every other piece I've written and realise that they're all as different in technique as they are in results. I really hate to repeat myself from one thing to the next, often to the point that I'll be wary of revisiting instruments I have previously used, so I think at least some of that is a conscious pushing on my part to do something different each time.

Probably the best way to sum up what I do, is to say that I try to *create something I like, that I haven't heard before*. I think if I can achieve that, the chances are good that I will have created something worthwhile. Another thing to say is that I work extensively with fine detail. My work is with sound rather than symbols, so like a musician rehearsing a piece I'm constantly revising the phrasing to get the right flow, which in turn will create the right atmosphere. The whole thing must be properly contoured to deliver the music to the ear in the best way possible, which will not necessarily mean total coherence on first listen, but with overall cohesion so that further listens will be understood with progressively greater ease.

As in the example picture I used in my response to clavichorder, you can see that there are many shifts in tempo, often very small or subtle. The reason for this is that there is very little that can be left to chance with a computer, primarily because computers do not take chances. I've said many times before that the computer is an executor of instruction to the letter, meaning that it must be told in unequivocal terms exactly what it must do, and the reason so many MIDI pieces sound bad is not the sample quality but that the composer has not given due consideration to the reality of the computer. As I said to Vasks, there is no good reason to treat a computer like a human, they "think" differently and you have to approach them as they are rather how you would like them to be.

With regard to harmony and counterpoint. As I've said, I work with sound rather than symbols, so I am using my ear to determine what not only sounds "good" but "right" for a given context. The way things come together is I first of all have to get lucky and have an idea that is at least half right when put into practice, and then modify it from there. I wish I could tell you more, but very often I'm not so much going into a piece knowing how I want it as I am discovering how it should be as work progresses, and it's almost a given that if I do want it a certain way at first, I'm eventually realising that what I want and what the piece needs are two different things. That's not to say I'm being guided by some invisible hand, but that I'm only going to get what I give, so I have to give some of my ideas up to get the best work I can produce. I think the usual way of putting this is "kill your darlings", which is to say that what you love may not be what's best for the piece.

This ended up far longer and more rambling than I had anticipated, but I hope it goes at least some way to answering your questions.


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## Crudblud

Howdy folks, I'm renewing this thread not so much to plug but to ask a favour. A friend and I have been developing a means of streaming my music from his server, as I am not too pleased with the way Soundcloud tends to downgrade sound quality. We've written a script that should play OGG Vorbis files for most users, but switch to mp3 if a user accesses it with Internet Explorer, as IE does not natively support Vorbis. So, if any willing IE users could try the link below and let me know if it works, I'd appreciate it.

http://crudblud.sjm.so/audio/malegoatodes

Thanks.


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## ptr

Works fin with both Explorer (9.0.8) and Firefox (32.0.2) at my end!

/ptr


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## Crudblud

ptr said:


> Works fin with both Explorer (9.0.8) and Firefox (32.0.2) at my end!
> 
> /ptr


Much appreciated. Well, now we can let the thread die.


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## BurningDesire

Crudblud said:


> Much appreciated. Well, now we can let the thread die.


Death is an illusion Crudblud :3


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## KenOC

BurningDesire said:


> Death is an illusion Crudblud :3


But normally, a permanent one.


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## Crudblud

BurningDesire said:


> Death is an illusion Crudblud :3


Alright then, let's discuss the **** out of this piece.


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## Jos

On other platforms it works too. I just listened to your work (via the new link) through an iPad hooked up to the stereo.
A blank screen with just a play or pause button, but the music sounded fine. Had the impression the stringinstrument sounded better than with soundcloud, but that might be psychoacoustics..
Always had a thing for that quirky sound of the clarinet in modern music. I enjoyed it, thnx for sharing it.

Cheers,
Jos


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## Crudblud

Thanks, Jos. I don't think it's just your ears, soundcloud has been somehow ruining the sound on my most recent pieces, that's precisely why I am trying to get away from it. The new stream page is very minimal, but it works and the sound is good enough to be properly representative of the music, so I am quite happy with it.


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## differencetone

I like it. It reminds me of Frank Zappa. If you are worried abut sound quality, you should get Cubase 8. They did a lot to the mixer.


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## Crudblud

differencetone said:


> I like it. It reminds me of Frank Zappa. If you are worried abut sound quality, you should get Cubase 8. They did a lot to the mixer.


Cubase 5 is fine for my purposes, the problem I've been having is with the compression soundcloud uses. If you check out the downloads or the new streaming page the sound is fine, but soundcloud makes everything sound a little bit muddy.

Thanks for listening, by the way.


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## differencetone

I would like to weigh in on the reverb controversy. It is too dry but a church reverb is way too much. As you have stated you believe sampled instruments are a valid art form (AKA mock-ups), you should go for the best possible rendition with the software available to you. Maybe something to think about in the future. I wasn't too happy with Cubase 5 reverb. Version 8 is much better.


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## Crudblud

differencetone said:


> I would like to weigh in on the reverb controversy. It is too dry but a church reverb is way too much. As you have stated you believe sampled instruments are a valid art form (AKA mock-ups), you should go for the best possible rendition with the software available to you. Maybe something to think about in the future. I wasn't too happy with Cubase 5 reverb. Version 8 is much better.


Again, Cubase is not the issue. I use it for the composition phase only, everything else is done in Cool Edit Pro, which is an old version of Adobe Audition, using exact parameters. In this case, and in pretty much everything else, the reverb was tailored to suit the density of the music and the timbre of the instruments.

Also, mock-ups are exactly what I don't do. This and my other works are not proof of concept for something that will later be recorded by an orchestra or whatever ensemble, they are the finished article.


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## differencetone

I remember cooledit from before Adobe bought it. IMHO you should tailor the reverb more.


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