# BASS TOURNAMENT (Round 1, Match 3): Abdrazakov vs Pinza



## Bonetan (Dec 22, 2016)

Ildar Abdrazakov, Russia, 1976-






Ezio Pinza, Italy, 1892-1957






Who's singing did you prefer and why?


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## Parsifal98 (Apr 29, 2020)

Pinza's last note  

He possessed such a magnificient instrument.


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

Gosh these are tough.
Each in his own way was excellent to these ears. Both exhibited deep feelings about Maria but "that Pinza voice"!
I cannot say no to it.
(Sorry Ildar)


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Pinza is a Rolls. The other guy is an Electra 225.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Oh, Ezio! That last low note! And all the others too!

This was on an LP of Pinza singing Verdi and Mozart which my half-Italian maternal grandfather had. It was one of the recordings that got me off to a good start with opera. What needs to be said, really? The guy could give you some enchanted evenings.






That lucky Mary Martin gets the voice and arms of Pinza, and gets to be Peter Pan too. I want to be her.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Woodduck said:


> Oh, Ezio! That last low note! And all the others too!
> 
> This was on an LP of Pinza singing Verdi and Mozart which my half-Italian maternal grandfather had. It was one of the recordings that got me off to a good start with opera. What needs to be said, really? The guy could give you some enchanted evening.
> 
> ...


I was given perhaps the greatest Verdi Requiem:Caniglia, Stignani, Gigli and Pinza. He was great in it. Only Caniglia's flat top notes marred the performance.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Seattleoperafan said:


> I was given perhaps the greatest Verdi Requiem:Caniglia, Stignani, Gigli and Pinza. He was great in it. Only Caniglia's flat top notes marred the performance.


I've never been able to enjoy Caniglia. Her voice grates on me.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

I thought Abdrazakov was quite good - until I listened to Pinza. What a voice and superb musicality. Pinza is an easy win.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Woodduck said:


> Oh, Ezio! That last low note! And all the others too!
> 
> This was on an LP of Pinza singing Verdi and Mozart which my half-Italian maternal grandfather had. It was one of the recordings that got me off to a good start with opera. What needs to be said, really? The guy could give you some enchanted evenings.
> 
> ...


I read somewhere that Pinza didn't read music, and was surprised and a little humiliated when he turned up to the first rehearsal of *South Pacific* to find the rest of the cast sight singing from the score. However, musical theatre people being what they are, they were all absolutely lovely to him and made him feel at home from day one.


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## vivalagentenuova (Jun 11, 2019)

Woodduck said:


> I've never been able to enjoy Caniglia. Her voice grates on me.


I like early Caniglia in a role/aria that lies mostly in the middle or lower register. Her high notes were always hit or miss, and by around 1943 they became quite painful. By the late 40s her whole voice was shot. She's very good as Maddalena in 1940 and Tosca in 1938. Even early on though it's not one of my favorite voices, just one that I would be happy to hear, especially vs. other options...

Pinza wins easily. Abrazakov has what I think of as a "fake" dark sound, and not enough core. The wobble isn't nearly as pronounced as his more recent recordings, but you can sort of hear it coming. Pinza's voice, on the other hand, is beautifully balanced, and his vibrato is just right.


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## Parsifal98 (Apr 29, 2020)

Here's another great Youtube video!






"Some rare video footage of Ezio Pinza in rehearsal for a 1947 appearance on the Bell Telephone Hour. The video opens with Donald Voorhees rehearsing the orchestra in the Overture to Smetana's "Bartered Bride", then has Pinza rehearsing Tosti's "L'ultima canzone" (3:40 ) with Voorhees at the piano. That's followed by an all-too-brief excerpt of Blanche Thebom singing "Amour! Viens aider ma faiblesse" from "Samson et Dalila" (7:04 ) and Là ci darem la mano from "Don Giovanni" with Pinza and Thebom (10:12 ), and "Le Cor" by Ange Flégier (13:30 )".

Pinza does it again with a splendid sustained low note starting at 17:06! And his mezza voce around 5:57 is magnificient.


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## Azol (Jan 25, 2015)

I have heard Abdrazakov live and can say that voice is not big in size, barely audible while intoning lower notes. I'd agree about him not having "enough core", but the voice is beautiful (or it was last time I heard him) and the stage presence is there. I enjoy the Mose DVD with him in title role (Muti, with Frittoli, Ganassi, Schrott, Filianoti - very enjoyable cast with no weak links in my opinion, recommended!)
So Pinza wins this without question.


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## Bonetan (Dec 22, 2016)

vivalagentenuova said:


> Abrazakov has what I think of as a "fake" dark sound, and not enough core.





Azol said:


> I have heard Abdrazakov live and can say that voice is not big in size, barely audible while intoning lower notes.


I don't like to get into the habit of assigning singers voice types, but I'm convinced Abdrazakov isn't a bass and the quotes above are clues imo. I think he's a natural baritone putting on a fake dark sound, which is why he has nothing on bottom and doesn't produce a lot of sound in general.

Pinza, easily.


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

Bonetan said:


> I don't like to get into the habit of assigning singers voice types, but I'm convinced Abdrazakov isn't a bass and the quotes above are clues imo. I think he's a natural baritone putting on a fake dark sound, which is why he has nothing on bottom and doesn't produce a lot of sound in general.
> 
> Pinza, easily.


Isn't it possible that he is more of a bass-baritone than a baritone?


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## Bonetan (Dec 22, 2016)

nina foresti said:


> Isn't it possible that he is more of a bass-baritone than a baritone?


I think of bass baritones as either low baritones or high basses and I think he's more low baritone if that makes any sense at all lol. I also believe quite a few historical baritones would be considered bass baritones today. I'm not all the way there, but as time passes I find myself more and more in the 'bass baritone shouldn't be a fach' camp.


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## Parsifal98 (Apr 29, 2020)

Bonetan said:


> I think of bass baritones as either low baritones or high basses and I think he's more low baritone if that makes any sense at all lol. I also believe quite a few historical baritones would be considered bass baritones today. I'm not all the way there, but as time passes I find myself more and more in the 'bass baritone shouldn't be a fach' camp.


I think that many fachs should not exist at all. It can be fun to classify singers in a "scientific" way, but I believe it can become detrimental in the long run. It seems singers must nowadays be classified in a very specific way, as if we are collecting Pokemon cards. Why not let singers be singers, extend their tessitura to its maximum extent with proper technique and then direct them to roles that better fit their temperament and their capacities. Instead of narrowing students into small vocal categories and thus limitating their repertoire to very specific works (absurdities like Verdi soprani or Baroque tenors), teach them musicality and how to listen to voices, more importantly their own. There is nothing more beautiful than a singer with proper technique who can sing nearly everything with ease and musical sensibility. I have been listening to Nicolaï Gedda recently. How pleasing it is to hear him sing with absolute beauty music from different repertoire. He is as convincing in "Dalla sua pace" as he is in "In fernem Land". On his Wikipedia page, he is described as being "unclassifiable". That's how I like my singers to be.


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## vivalagentenuova (Jun 11, 2019)

Parsifal98 said:


> I have been listening to Nicolai Gedda recently. How pleasing it is to hear him sing with absolute beauty music from different repertoire. He is as convincing in "Dalla sua pace" as he is in "In fernem Land". In is Wikipedia page, he is described as being "unclassifiable". That's how I like my singers to be.


I used to be a _huge_ Nicolai Gedda fan. He's one of the most widely recorded singers ever, and I listened to everything I could find. I've cooled on him a little bit since then, but I still do appreciate the versatility you mention, as well as his incredible facility with languages. He did many superb renditions of Scandanavian songs that I still enjoy, as well as some of his live recordings that capture his voice in a warmer way than the studio mics do.


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## Parsifal98 (Apr 29, 2020)

vivalagentenuova said:


> I used to be a _huge_ Nicolai Gedda fan. He's one of the most widely recorded singers ever, and I listened to everything I could find. I've cooled on him a little bit since then, but I still do appreciate the versatility you mention, as well as his incredible facility with languages. He did many superb renditions of Scandanavian songs that I still enjoy, as well as some of his live recordings that capture his voice in a warmer way than the studio mics do.


Indeed I have been comparing his live and studio recordings and while he sounds great in studio, he sounds much better in live settings.

Is there a reason why you have cooled on him?

And talking of flexibility, we should start a thread concerning flexible singers that do not easily fit in the current fach system. Two that pop into my mind are Christa Ludwig and Shirley Verrett.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

vivalagentenuova said:


> I used to be a _huge_ Nicolai Gedda fan. He's one of the most widely recorded singers ever, and I listened to everything I could find. I've cooled on him a little bit since then, but I still do appreciate the versatility you mention, as well as his incredible facility with languages. He did many superb renditions of Scandanavian songs that I still enjoy, as well as some of his live recordings that capture his voice in a warmer way than the studio mics do.


I have always been a fan of Gedda and have quite a few of his recordings, including this box set, which includes most of his wonderful first recital for EMI










I reviewed it on my blog here.


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

I think my main problem with Gedda was that he never seemed to put any inner feelings into his performances. They all seemed very straight and narrow and more intent on singing perfectly with his fine voice instead of developing the depth of the role.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

vivalagentenuova said:


> I used to be a _huge_ Nicolai Gedda fan. He's one of the most widely recorded singers ever, and I listened to everything I could find. I've cooled on him a little bit since then, but I still do appreciate the versatility you mention, as well as his incredible facility with languages. He did many superb renditions of Scandanavian songs that I still enjoy, as well as some of his live recordings that capture his voice in a warmer way than the studio mics do.


My sister the opera singer/ voice teacher never likes anyone I suggest for her to listen to. She is very picky. Never fully pleased. But she is a huge fan of Gedda. That should say something.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Seattleoperafan said:


> My sister the opera singer/ voice teacher never likes anyone I suggest for her to listen to. She is very picky. Never fully pleased. But she is a huge fan of Gedda. That should say something.


My singing teacher, who was also a tenor, loved Gedda too.


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## vivalagentenuova (Jun 11, 2019)

I think it's interesting to compare Gedda and his teacher Oehmann.









Gedda clearly inherited Oehmann's sensitivity and musicality, but his voice is thinner and has less chest. Gedda had a big range but he often comes under stress in forte high passages. He can do it and make it sound musical because he _was_ so musical, but the voice loses it's luster quickly. Even his famed mezza voce is kind of thin here. Oehmann produces a much richer sound with much better balance between the registers. To take one little example, just comparing the Gedda's phrases from 1:57-2:28 and Oehmann's from 2:30-3:04 is really illustrative. Gedda's two high notes at 1:57 and 2:11 are thinner and more strained than Oehmann's at 2:30 and 2:47. Oehmann matches Gedda for sensitivity and vocal coloring, but his sound is freer and more beautiful. I think comparing their renditions phrase for phrase, and the two singers aria for aria, Oehmann has an easier, freer, fuller, more thrilling and warmer sound than Gedda. So what's changed for me is my conception of a great operatic sound has changed, and I've discovered dozens of earlier tenors who can make those richer sounds who are just as musical and much less known, including Gedda's own teacher! Andre D'Arkor, for example, is to me what I think Gedda is to a lot of people, an ideal lyric tenor with a powerful voice and beautiful mezza voce:





Gedda is hugely respected, and rightfully so. But in some ways his sound has been a bad model for modern tenors. We have a lot of high, white, thin voices that are intelligently used but lack core. Gedda is better than most of them, definitely, but I think unfortunately singing teachers today are aiming for Gedda's vocal production rather than Oehmann's. (Seattleoperafan, I would be interested to know what your sister thinks of Oehmann and D'Arkor.)

I still like Gedda though. He does wonderful things as I said in Scandanavian and Russian song, and I've always had a huge soft-spot for his _Boheme_ with Freni. I also like him as Nemorino and Cellini (though I imagine Oehmann would be an incredible Cellini). Here is one of my favorite Gedda recordings:


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## Azol (Jan 25, 2015)

vivalagentenuova said:


> I think it's interesting to compare Gedda and his teacher Oehmann.


Bass tournament indeed!


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## Parsifal98 (Apr 29, 2020)

vivalagentenuova said:


> I think it's interesting to compare Gedda and his teacher Oehmann.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


A great and informative post! Thank you!

I understand what you mean and the difference is obvious when you pay attention to it (on a side note, Oehmann and D'Arkor are splendid singers). And the difference between Gedda live and Gedda in studio is also quite striking. He seems to have been more willing to bring the chest voice out when performing on stage. Do you think the difference in settings could partly explain the diminished presence of his chest voice in some studio recordings?






Here's another live performance. He sounds freer than in the Carmen aria and his chest voice seems more present.


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## vivalagentenuova (Jun 11, 2019)

Azol said:


> Bass tournament indeed!


Well, the bass tournament seemed to have reached a consensus 

An bonus tenor matchup with Gedda would be interesting, but I don't know if Bonetan is planning to do French tenors separately from Italian or not, and Gedda would be a good one to have in that tournament.



Parsifal98 said:


> And the difference between Gedda live and Gedda in studio is also quite striking. He seems to have been more willing to bring the chest voice out when performing on stage. Do you think the difference in settings could partly explain the diminished presence of his chest voice in some studio recordings?


I remember him saying either in his autobiography or an interview that he intentionally pulled back in the studio because he thought it sounded like "too much" if he sang the same way he did on stage. His live recordings go downhill over time though too (before they should). That Salzburg Pourquoi is great. Both his Salzburg concerts are very good. The 1959 Nacht und Traume is marvelous, as is the "L'invitation au voyage" from 1961 (doesn't hurt that it's one of my favorite poems) and the aria from _Dubrovsky_ from the same year.

He did change his technique over the years. There was a Russian lady who taught him to smile. I don't think it helped.


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## Parsifal98 (Apr 29, 2020)

vivalagentenuova said:


> I remember him saying either in his autobiography or an interview that he intentionally pulled back in the studio because he thought it sounded like "too much" if he sang the same way he did on stage. His live recordings go downhill over time though too (before they should). That Salzburg Pourquoi is great. Both his Salzburg concerts are very good. The 1959 Nacht und Traume is marvelous, as is the "L'invitation au voyage" from 1961 (doesn't hurt that it's one of my favorite poems) and the aria from _Dubrovsky_ from the same year.
> 
> He did change his technique over the years. There was a Russian lady who taught him to smile. I don't think it helped.


That is interesting. I don't know if many singers felt compelled to tone it down in the studio. It is not the first time I hear of this desire to not overdo it behind the mic.

As for the smiling technique, I watched a video of him where he was doing it. Here it is:





It is unfortunate that he had to change his technique. Then again, its not the first time that I hear of such a phenomen where a well-trained singer follows wrong advices and consequently leads his (or her) voice on the southward path...

Thanks again Viva for your informative answers. You are a well of knowledge!


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