# Do we have any German scholars in the house?!



## Guest002

I'm looking at Bach's BWV 118, which is a funeral motet. It contains the line:

_Auf deinen Abschied, Herr, ich trau'_

...which is literally, 'In your farewell/parting/passing, Lord, I trust (or place faith in)".

But theologically, I find that problematic. We don't "trust" in Jesus' departure/death/passing. And Jesus doesn't, theologically speaking, depart from us in the first place.

I _think_ Bach's librettist is eliding several concepts, so that it's the entire business of Jesus' death, resurrection and ascension that the dying protagonist is able to have faith in. That is, the departure from this life is what is being specifically mentioned, but that implies much more, in Jesus' case, than a mere farewell.

So would it be acceptable, do you think, to translate the line as "In your resurrection, Lord, I trust", though "Abschied" definitely doesn't mean 'resurrection' literally.

IE, I think you'd theologically, on your death-bed, be relying on the resurrection to give you hope etc. 'Parting' implies that, sort of. So it's a legitimate substitution to say 'resurrection' rather than 'farewell'?

Thoughts, please?


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## Animal the Drummer

Don't know about "scholar" nowadays, but I do have a degree in Modern and Medieval German and French from decades ago and haven't forgotten it all quite yet. As you may recall from *that* other thread, I'm also a practising Christian, so I'll essay a response and hope it helps.

I don't think one can get away from "Abschied = farewell", but I don't think one needs to do so theologically anyway. I refer the right honourable gentleman to Jesus' assurance to his disciples that "though I am going away, I do so to prepare a place for you" and that this was why it was best for them that he did go. That's what I reckon the words of this motet are getting at.


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## Guest002

I like your reply. It seems entirely sensible, and I thank you for it.

I'm having difficulty finding the Bible reference, though. John 14:28, perhaps?

Or have you another in mind?

PS. I found John 14:3, too...


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## Guest002

deleted due to duplication...


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## Animal the Drummer

You've already found John 14:3, which was indeed one of the references I had in mind. The other principal one was John 16:7: "And yet I can say truly that it is better for you I should go away; he who is to befriend you will not come to you unless I do go, but if only I make my way there, I will send him him to you." Not as precisely on point perhaps, but it is to a degree, and something that perhaps a person on his deathbed would also reach for.


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## vincula

I think _Abcheid_ in this context refers to a "detachment from earthy things" or "the world", as in "the world, devil & flesh", a certain _Weltabgewandtheit_; the word was used and popularised by the Christian Mystics around 1300, thus meaning a departure/separation from life "as we know it". It appeals to the dualism Body vs. Soul, etc. The substantive _Abscheid_ is originally related to these verbs:

Upper Saxon German: _ofskīðan_

Middle Low German: _afschēden_

Gothic: _afskaidan_

They all mean departure/separation with all the connotations you want to add. Juridically it could also mean passing a law (fx. _Reichsabschied, ein Gesetz verabschieden_).

In Scandinavian languages the verb's very close to the old Gothic from and it uses normally to indicate as someone has lost a job (or she/he's been fired) and referred to funeral related formulas or ceremonies. An current example in Danish:

Han blev _afskediget_ - he was/got fired
Han tog _afsked_ med sin mor - he said goodbye to his mother (for the last time)

Don't know if it helps 

Here's a link to the German Etymological Dictionary for further reading:

https://www.dwds.de/wb/Abschied

Regards,

Vincula


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## Guest002

vincula said:


> I think _Abcheid_ in this context refers to a "detachment from earthy things" or "the world", as in "the world, devil & flesh", a certain _Weltabgewandtheit_; the word was used and popularised by the Christian Mystics around 1300, thus meaning a departure/separation from life "as we know it". It appeals to the dualism Body vs. Soul, etc. The substantive _Abscheid_ is originally related to these verbs:
> 
> Upper Saxon German: _ofskīðan_
> 
> Middle Low German: _afschēden_
> 
> Gothic: _afskaidan_
> 
> They all mean departure/separation with all the connotations you want to add. Juridically it could also mean passing a law (fx. _Reichsabschied, ein Gesetz verabschieden_).
> 
> In Scandinavian languages the verb's very close to the old Gothic from and it uses normally to indicate as someone has lost a job (or she/he's been fired) and referred to funeral related formulas or ceremonies. An current example in Danish:
> 
> Han blev _afskediget_ - he was/got fired
> Han tog _afsked_ med sin mor - he said goodbye to his mother (for the last time)
> 
> Don't know if it helps
> 
> Here's a link to the German Etymological Dictionary for further reading:
> 
> https://www.dwds.de/wb/Abschied
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Vincula


That etymological dictionary link is going to be very helpful. Thanks.
The 'departure from worldly things' idea makes a lot of sense too.

Much appreciated.


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## Simplicissimus

The verb _trauern_ means 'to grieve' and is usually used with the prepostions _um_ or _über_, though I think maybe _auf_ would work. Where I'm going with this is that I think _trau'_ in the cited text is an elision of _trauere_, not _traue_. Also _trauen_ 'to trust, believe' doesn't use a preposition, but rather the dative case, e.g., _jemandem [etwas] trauen_ 'to trust somebody [something]'. So, I read the text as, 'I mourn your departure, Lord'.


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## Guest002

Simplicissimus said:


> The verb _trauern_ means 'to grieve' and is usually used with the prepostions _um_ or _über_, though I think maybe _auf_ would work. Where I'm going with this is that I think _trau'_ in the cited text is an elision of _trauere_, not _traue_. Also _trauen_ 'to trust, believe' doesn't use a preposition, but rather the dative case, e.g., _jemandem [etwas] trauen_ 'to trust somebody [something]'. So, I read the text as, 'I mourn your departure, Lord'.


Ah. It's an interesting idea. I can only tell you that Dürr, Dellal, Ambrose, Browne and Schmuck all have 'trust'. (In case those names don't mean much, see this).

Now, that doesn't mean they must therefore be right. But I haven't come across an apostrophe indicating the removal of _two_ letters before, I think, in 118 cantatas. So it would be an unusual case of contraction, I think.

Additionally, the context would make it problematic. "I mourn your departure Lord, on it I shall build my last homeward journey'. I don't think you can meaningfully 'build on' an act of mourning (but building on trust is normal).

I shall mull it anyway! Thank you.


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