# Fultwangler/Flagstad vs. Thielemann/Voight 'Tristan und Isolde'?



## linz (Oct 5, 2006)

Less than a year ago I purchased Thieleman's Isolde which was my introduction to this lovely Wagner music. The prelude greatly impressed me, aswell as Liebestod, but the recording seemed very fluid and almost unfitting for Voight. Their was also some stomping on the stage which amplyfied on my stereo almost blowig the speakers. I eventually ditched the recording even though I had purchased it at an unbelievable price and rescently purchased (at a greater expense) the Furtwangler Flagstad remastered recording from EMI. I haven't recieved it in the mail yet but I was curious as to if any had an oppinion about these recordings?


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## damianjb1 (Jan 1, 2016)

I have the Furtwangler Tristan with Flagstad and it is magnificent.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Thielemann/Voight 'Tristan und Isolde' hears it once, that was enough, I am not a real Thielemann fan, he think he's Karajan 2.0


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## Josquin13 (Nov 7, 2017)

The Furtwängler's EMI recording of Tristan und Isolde is considered one of the great recordings of the opera. The mono sound is okay--not bad for a Furtwängler recording. If you don't know about this conductor's recordings, Furtwängler was said to be very impatient with the recording process, and didn't normally conduct with more than just one microphone (if ever?). So, as a rule, you don't buy a Furtwängler record if sound quality is important to you (particularly his recordings before the late 1940s or early 50s), & especially if it is as important to you as the quality of performance. However, if the quality of performance is paramount, & you don't care about the sound, then Furtwängler can make an excellent choice (especially if you love a work of music and want to hear various recordings, in order to more greatly expand your understanding of the score).

I should also warn you that Furtwängler's approach to music making was based upon Schenkerian musical analysis, and therefore, he's not to always perfectly steady with his rhythms & tempi, but has a tendency to pull the music around in his quest for a deeper, more penetrating meaning (which he often finds). For me, Furtwängler was at his best in the music of the Romantics--Wagner, Mendelssohn, Brahms, Schumann, and most especially Bruckner, though he is also highly regarded for his Beethoven too.

I'd be remiss not to also mention that many collectors prefer Furtwängler's singers, both Flagstad & Melchoir, on their earlier, more youthful recordings of Tristan--with Reiner, Leinsdorf, Beecham?, and Bodansky (see below), than late in their careers with Furtwängler. Melchoir was also the Tristan to Helen Traubel's Isolde under conductor Fritz Busch in Buenos Aires in 1943. (Some collectors consider Traubel the greatest Isolde after Flagstad.)

As for Thielemann, he now leads my favorite orchestra in the world, the Staatskapelle Dresden. Prior to his arrival in Dresden, I hadn't heard much from him that I had especially liked or been overly impressed by. Nor can I recall ever having recommended a recording by Thielemann, though I have noticed his recent Bruckner cycle in Dresden has been receiving strong reviews in certain quarters, so I may check those out at some point. Though I confess, except for a reasonably good & well played CD of Wagner Overtures with the Philadelphia Orchestra (on DG), made early in Thielemann's career, I've not heard any other Wagner by him.

Tristan und Isolde is one of my favorite operas. One of the real highlights of my several decades of listening to classical music has been hearing the Staatskapelle Dresden Orchestra play Tristan und Isolde under the baton of Carlos Kleiber, with Margaret Price singing the role of Isolde. You won't hear more astonishingly brilliant or more in tune orchestral playing in a Wagner opera than on that recording, at least, not from my experience. And, no one gets the ending of the opera more rapturously than Kleiber, Price, and the Staatskapelle, IMO--it's simply overwhelming. In addition, the digital sound from the 1980s is excellent too (especially on LP):

https://www.amazon.com/Wagner-Trist...17629168&sr=8-2&keywords=kleiber+wagner+price

Though I prefer the sound quality on this Japanese import (to the above), which is a treasure in my collection:

https://www.amazon.co.jp/ワーグナー-楽劇「ト...&keywords=wagner+carlos+kleiber+price+tristan

The ending of Carlos Kleiber's Dresden Tristan can be heard & sampled on this two CD "Tribute" set to the late conductor:

https://www.amazon.com/Tribute-Uniq...id=1517631122&sr=1-1&keywords=kleiber+tribute

Other great Tristans have come from Fritz Reiner (Covent Garden, 1936, with Flagstad & Melchior, on Naxos), Arthur Bodansky (Metropolitan Opera, 1937, with Flagstad & Melchoir, on Naxos), Hans Knappertsbusch (Bavarian State Opera, 1950, with Braun & Treptow, on the Orfeo label, & another on the Gala label), Eugen Jochum (Bayreuther Festspiele, 1953, with Varnay & Vinay, on Melodram & another on Archipel), Karl Bohm (Bayreuther Festspiele, 1966, with Nilsson & Windgassen, on DG & another on Philips), and if you can by pass his ugly fascist politics & rumored Holocaust denials, Sir Reginald Goodall (Welsh National Opera, 1982, with Gray & Mitchinson, on Decca, a digital recording):

https://www.amazon.com/Tristan-Isol...7633850&sr=1-2&keywords=Reiner+wagner+tristan
https://www.amazon.com/Wagner-Flagstad-Melchior-Thorborg-Bodanzky/dp/B000EHJN5W 
https://www.amazon.com/Tristan-Isol...sr=1-3&keywords=knappertsbusch+wagner+tristan
https://www.amazon.com/Tristan-Isolde-Richard-Classical-Wagner/dp/B000031VTN
https://www.amazon.com/Wagner-Trist...517633948&sr=1-1&keywords=Bohm+wagner+tristan
http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/album.jsp?album_id=309303

Some collectors have also liked Herbert von Karajan's Tristan und Isolde, with Helga Dernesch as Isolde and Jon Vickers as Tristan, but I think you can almost always do better than Karajan, and here is no exception (though admittedly, Karajan was at his very best in Wagner, Strauss & Bruckner, in my view). Others listeners have liked Sir Georg Solti in Wagner, but I personally think that Solti was better in other Wagner operas, such as Tannhäuser & the Ring cycle, than with Tristan.

Of these recordings, only the Goodall & Kleiber recordings derive from the digital era; although the 1966 DG sound for Bohm's Tristan from Bayreuth is perfectly good. What's interesting about the Goodall & Kleiber recordings is that, in combination, they give the listener two very different approaches to the opera. Goodall was a protege/assistant to Furtwängler & comes out of that tradition (to an extent), plus he had a truly wonderful Isolde in Linda Esther Gray (whose career was regrettably cut short due to illness); while Kleiber offers one of the more daringly original & insightful interpretations on record, and as mentioned, he had an magnificent orchestra, and the superb Margaret Price, as Isolde, whose near perfect intonation & vocal blending with the Dresden musicians is incredible. Both are essential views towards understanding Tristan und Isolde more deeply, in my opinion.

P.S.--I realize that I didn't mention Leonard Bernstein's Tristan on Philips, with it's often very slow tempi. I tend to avoid Bernstein's 'late period' myself (finding it very erratic), but others like it.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

> P.S.--I realize that I didn't mention Leonard Bernstein's Tristan on Philips, with it's often very slow tempi. I tend to avoid Bernstein's 'late period' myself (finding it very erratic), but others like it.


I do very much as do some other members and the late Mr. Böhm also.

Bernstein described it as "The finest thing I have ever done" and


> Karl Böhm had this to say when he visited Bernstein during rehearsals: "For the first time, someone dares to perform this music as Wagner wrote it."


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

Josquin13 said:


> Goodall was a protege/assistant to Furtwängler & comes out of that tradition (to an extent),


I don't believe that Goodall was ever a protege of Furtwangler, the two older generation conductors who he worked more closely with and modeled his style on were Hans Knappertsbusch and Otto Klemperer.


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## Josquin13 (Nov 7, 2017)

Pugg said:


> I do very much as do some other members and the late Mr. Böhm also.
> 
> Bernstein described it as "The finest thing I have ever done" and


I didn't know that Bernstein considered his Tristan "The finest thing" he'd ever done. That's very interesting. I'll have to go back and give it another listen. The truth is I only owned Bernstein's Tristan on LP, so I haven't listened to it in ages (as my turntable went caput sometime in the 1990s).

But when I first started collecting classical recordings in the 1980s, a composer friend cautioned me against buying Bernstein's "late" recordings, especially the DG ones in Vienna, which he said represented Bernstein at his "worst". He said that as a conductor, Bernstein was either "very good", or "very bad", that there was no in between. And, since my composer friend always gave me the most fantastic and interesting recommendations, I implicitly trusted his estimation of Bernstein (on record & in concert). However, out of curiosity, I did eventually come to explore a wider gamut of Bernstein's recordings, over time, including a good selection of his late Vienna DG recordings, and for the most part, I came to agree with my friend.

For me, Bernstein's greatest recordings came out of his Columbia & EMI years. For example, I much prefer his early Mahler on Columbia to his later DG Mahler, and his superb Haydn for Columbia to his later Haydn for DG & Philips, and his fantastic early Beethoven to his later DG Beethoven (especially in the Eroica), etc., etc. However, I'll try to re-listen to Bernstein's Tristan, as it was recorded earlier than his Vienna period, if I remember correctly, and may be more worthwhile than I have remembered. Thanks for the nudge.

As for Bohm's quote, yes, I remember it well. It was used as a 'selling point' on the Philips LP box set, which was a very controversial recording when it came out. I'm not surprised that Bohm saw Bernstein's late tendency for very slow tempi as something special. Bohm had himself slowed down considerably in his later years--that is, from his prime (such as on his final Beethoven 9th for DG, which the British critics loved, and I disliked). As someone whose love for classical music took hold and burgeoned during the period revival of the 1980s, I'm afraid Bohm's late recordings aren't my cup of tea.

Granted, Goodall likewise had a tendency to slow down in Wagner, & particularly in his EMI Parsifal, but I don't mind it at all on his Welsh National Opera Tristan und Isolde, which alongside C. Kleiber's Tristan, is my other favorite recording of the digital era.

Becca writes, "I don't believe that Goodall was ever a protege of Furtwangler, the two older generation conductors who he worked more closely with and modeled his style on were Hans Knappertsbusch and Otto Klemperer."

No, I don't think that's right. Goodall spent three years with Furtwängler. Here's an interview with Bruce Duffie that was conducted just after Goodall's 1982 Tristan came out on LP, where the Furtwängler connection is mentioned:

http://www.bruceduffie.com/goodall.html

(By the way, I highly recommend all of Bruce Duffie's interviews, if you don't know them, as many of them are wonderfully informative--a real treasure trove!)

However, I tend to agree with you that Goodall may have modeled his conducting style more on Knappersbusch than Furtwängler, and to a degree on Klemperer as well. In truth, I believe I hear an influence from all three conductors on Goodall's style (& approach to Wagner).

Of those conductors, at his best, I enjoy Knappertsbusch the most as a Wagner conductor. Though I wish Klemperer had recorded more Wagner, as a Tristan or Parsifal from him would have been fascinating.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

> I didn't know that Bernstein considered his Tristan "The finest thing" he'd ever done. That's very interesting. I'll have to go back and give it another listen. The truth is I only owned Bernstein's Tristan on LP, so I haven't listened to it in ages (as my turntable went caput sometime in the 1990s).
> 
> But when I first started collecting classical recordings in the 1980s, a composer friend cautioned me against buying Bernstein's "late" recordings, especially the DG ones in Vienna, which he said represented Bernstein at his "worst". He said that as a conductor, Bernstein was either "very good", or "very bad", that there was no in between. And, since my composer friend always gave me the most fantastic and interesting recommendations, I implicitly trusted his estimation of Bernstein (on record & in concert). However, out of curiosity, I did eventually come to explore a wider gamut of Bernstein's recordings, over time, including a good selection of his late Vienna DG recordings, and for the most part, I came to agree with my friend.
> 
> ...


With this I agree ( in red now), however if you see the( DVD ) recording of him for DG, I am always fascinated by his conducting, in the end it's all a matter of taste I think. I am no professor and just hear/ see what I like, or don't like for that matter, by _any _artist.
P.S
What I like most on the Tristan is the love duet, the most erotic / fascinating performance for me by Peter Hofmann (Tristan), Hildegard Behrens (Isolde).


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## wkasimer (Jun 5, 2017)

Pugg said:


> What I like most on the [Bernstein] Tristan is the love duet, the most erotic / fascinating performance for me by Peter Hofmann (Tristan), Hildegard Behrens (Isolde).


I love the conducting on this performance throughout - I just wish that Bernstein had better singers than Behrens and Hofmann in the title roles. It sometimes sounds as though he's trying to drown them out, and I can't say that I blame him...

While one can hate some of what Bernstein does on recordings, he's never dull.


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## damianjb1 (Jan 1, 2016)

I haven't heard the Thielemann/Voight recording but I've just finished listening to the Furtwangler/Flagstad. Flagstad's voice is a glory of nature. The more I listen to it the more extraordinary it sounds. The vastness of it is breathtaking. Blanche Thebom is a little disappointing as Brangane (struggles with some of the higher passages in act two) but I adore Dietrich Fischer-Diskau as Kurwenal. The recording as a whole is a glorious achievement.
I will make an effort to hear the Thielemann recording as he is probably the best Wagner conductor of our time?????


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