# How stressed do you think Beethoven was?



## Bored (Sep 6, 2012)

I mean he got rejected by a lot of women and the thing about his adopted son, also his deafness contributing greatly to his emotional stress level. So on a scale of one to ten how stressed do you think Beethoven was in general and please explain why.


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## joen_cph (Jan 17, 2010)

No doubt fluctuating, like most people, between 1-10. In heaven, at times, when composing, in hell, at times, when not.


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## ptr (Jan 22, 2013)

Not at all, You are trying to apply a 21st Century mindset on a 18th Century individual. The itch from his syphilis might have been a slight inconvenience, but the other things was daily life he dealt with! Remember, this is way before Wundt and Freud and those guy's, a time when most ailments where cured with mercury, arsenic and the likes!

/ptr


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## Aramis (Mar 1, 2009)

ptr said:


> Not at all, You are trying to apply a 21st Century mindset on a 18th Century individual. The itch from his syphilis might have been a slight inconvenience, but the other things was daily life he dealt with! Remember, this is way before Wundt and Freud and those guy's, a time when most ailments where cured with mercury, arsenic and the likes!
> 
> /ptr


Absolutely. People make similiar mistakes with Verdi, talking about how his children and wife died when he was in 20's, but they don't understand that in XIXth century it was normal and it didn't hurt people anymore than mosquito bite!


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## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

You gotta read up on him, and make your own determination. Near as I can tell from doing that, he was severely afflicted with a composing compulsion, which left him insufficient opportunity to become adept at 'normal' social intercourse.

At this distance in time and space, that's fine with me; I like the results from that composing compulsion.

 (Ukko, the Neo-Jungian Hillbilly)


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## amfortas (Jun 15, 2011)

Um . . . yeah, pretty stressed, I guess.

Remember when he wrote all those symphonies? That was awesome.


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## Dustin (Mar 30, 2012)

I can't even imagine his stress level with him being deaf and socially isolated and all of that. Of course the composing had to help, but I think that was only a release and not a fix. I mean he did even write himself that he felt like killing himself.


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## shangoyal (Sep 22, 2013)

A little more than Gregory House, I suppose, but a little less than Franz Kafka.


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

German has no one word with the direct meaning, "relax."

For the rest, you may as well ask if dentistry of that time was up to our contemporary standards, so different was the outlook on what any individual had happen to them in life.


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## Morimur (Jan 23, 2014)

I think he probably suffered from acute depression. Of course, that didn't stop him from composing so he surely possessed tremendous will power. All in all, he must have endured a hellish existence.


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## Ingélou (Feb 10, 2013)

From written remarks, we know that Beethoven was rendered very unhappy by his deafness & tinnitus, and we also know that he fell for women who were above him in station; his lack of attention to his clothes & personal hygiene are very typical of people sunk in depression, then and now. 

While it is true that people's approach to life then and now is different and we shouldn't impose a modern mindset on historical people, it's also clear that people felt things much the same as we do. Despite it being 'expected' that one would lose a child, for example, the grief felt was not really less - look at the Thrales, who lost their only son, and the agony expressed over it by Dr Johnson, their friend. Henry Thrale went into a mental decline after this event & it clearly shortened his life.

So yes, I do think that Beethoven was stressed.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

From the written accounts of friends, Beethoven seemed particularly chipper and merry when he was writing his late quartets -- at least when he wasn't ill. He was doubtless depressed around the turn of the century when his hearing started to fail, as who wouldn't be. And he was pretty stressed during the custody struggles over his nephew. But I can't remember any account suggesting that he was more stressed, in general, than anybody else.


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## Ingélou (Feb 10, 2013)

KenOC said:


> From the written accounts of friends, Beethoven seemed particularly chipper and merry when he was writing his late quartets -- at least when he wasn't ill. He was doubtless depressed around the turn of the century when his hearing started to fail, as who wouldn't be. And he was pretty stressed during the custody struggles over his nephew. But I can't remember any account suggesting that he was more stressed, in general, than anybody else.


Do you mean an account from a contemporary? Would there necessarily be any such 'account'?
Or an account by a modern commentator - but we can form our own conclusions.

I expect that Beethoven was *no more* stressed than any other artist whose art depends on his hearing and who loses it; or than any other lover who cannot marry the one he loves; or than any other family litigant; or than any other depressed person who drinks too much; or than any other gifted person who feels constrained by circumstances.

But why wouldn't all those people be stressed, with such problems?

Ergo - Beethoven was stressed.


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## shangoyal (Sep 22, 2013)

I think Beethoven was not a person who was in a constant mood throughout his life. Different times came and affected him differently. By his very nature, he was of a rebellious and intense temperament. His deafness caused him great distress and some of his music from the Middle Period depicts his epic struggles with the hard facts of life - including his estrangement from lovers, deafness and other personal problems we might not know. Then in the 1810s, he had a strange illness around 1815-1817 which caused him to give up composition for 2 years. And after this, he lost the custody battle for his nephew in late 1818. By this time, I feel that his distresses had diminished, or at least he had come to terms with his misfortunes and learnt to find new strength. His late works seldom show the earlier fervour and angry rebellion - he started studying more older music (like Bach) and composed in a more experimental, free style which embraced a lot of emotions and musical forms. His Late Period s evidence of a less stressed Beethoven but a more spiritual one.

All in all, I think it's subtle how we deal with stress. The only time I would think Beethoven was so stressed that it was barely controlled was during the time he first learnt of his increasing deafness, around 1800-1805. At other times, he probably was no more stressed than many other artists, and probably much less than people like Vincent van Gogh or Robert Schumann.


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## Blake (Nov 6, 2013)

I get the feeling that he felt joy primarily when dealing with music. He seemed to be fed-up with everything else. Lovely chap.


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## Ravndal (Jun 8, 2012)

PetrB said:


> German has no one word with the direct meaning, "relax."
> 
> For the rest, you may as well ask if dentistry of that time was up to our contemporary standards, so different was the outlook on what any individual had happen to them in life.


..........................................


entspannen?


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

The best views of Beethoven's mental state can be gained from his letters and contemporary accounts. His letters are full of humor, coarse puns, name-calling, vituperation, despair, anything you want to name. All over the map. Here's a good reference:

http://www.amazon.com/Beethoven-Let...405884631&sr=8-1&keywords=beethoven+hamburger

See more at my site:

https://sites.google.com/site/kenocstuff/beethoven-s-words

I don't think you can draw any generalizations!


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## stevens (Jun 23, 2014)

Beethoven was surely stressed. As well as a majority of people at that time I suspect. I strongely believe that the fear caused by impending poverty and starvation is culture independent. Mozart..and his wife (especially) comes to mind


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## shangoyal (Sep 22, 2013)

KenOC said:


> The best views of Beethoven's mental state can be gained from his letters and contemporary accounts. His letters are full of humor, coarse puns, name-calling, vituperation, despair, anything you want to name. All over the map. Here's a good reference:
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/Beethoven-Let...405884631&sr=8-1&keywords=beethoven+hamburger
> 
> ...


Do you have the 200 something conversation books in your possession?


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

shangoyal said:


> Do you have the 200 something conversation books in your possession?


Hamburger's book has passages from the conversation books, as do most biographies. Unfortunately, the conversation books have few of Beethoven's words, since he could reply to the questions and observations others entered in them verbally.

I don't think the complete conversation books have ever been published -- could be wrong.


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## shangoyal (Sep 22, 2013)

KenOC said:


> Hamburger's book has passages from the conversation books, as do most biographies. Unfortunately, the conversation books have few of Beethoven's words, since he could reply to the questions and observations others entered in them verbally.
> 
> I don't think the complete conversation books have ever been published -- could be wrong.


Thankfully, he was more engaged in sketching his compositions than recording his everyday conversations!


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

Ravndal said:


> ..........................................
> 
> 
> entspannen?


_single, not combined, word_ entspannen is more like un-tense yourself, not the imperative, "Relax!"


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## ArtMusic (Jan 5, 2013)

Bored said:


> I mean he got rejected by a lot of women and the thing about his adopted son, also his deafness contributing greatly to his emotional stress level. So on a scale of one to ten how stressed do you think Beethoven was in general and please explain why.


Probably a nine, thus explaining why he also wrote nine symphonies. The more stressed out he was the more inspired he got to let it out. Torn cover page of the Eroica score etc. as evidence of political stress. Also explains why his portraits showed a man that never smiled but cranky looking.


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## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

ArtMusic said:


> Probably a nine, thus explaining why he also wrote nine symphonies. The more stressed out he was the more inspired he got to let it out. Torn cover page of the Eroica score etc. as evidence of political stress. Also explains why his portraits showed a man that never smiled but cranky looking.


This is a good example of the ambiguities of the TC form of communication. The tongue _should_ be firmly in cheek... but maybe it ain't.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

In the 1700-1800's people stank; they didn't bathe much; no Colgate toothpaste around either; they rode around in horse-drawn carriages and the stinky horse manure was everywhere.

There was no electricity. No MTV. No Tanzen Mit Den Sternen to kill an hour. No CD's. No smart phones. Constant wars. A rigid class system. Fortepianos that had horrible mechanisms. Chronic deafness. Audiologists who didn't know their arses from their elbows.

Wouldn't you be a little stressed too??


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## Guest (Jul 21, 2014)

Aramis said:


> Absolutely. People make similiar mistakes with Verdi, talking about how his children and wife died when he was in 20's, but they don't understand that in XIXth century it was normal and it didn't hurt people anymore than mosquito bite!


Seriously? You're suggesting that because death was common, parents would shrug off the deaths of their children as if it were a minor inconvenience?


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## Dustin (Mar 30, 2012)

MacLeod said:


> Seriously? You're suggesting that because death was common, parents would shrug off the deaths of their children as if it were a minor inconvenience?


Lol yeah I'm not sure if he meant that seriously or not but I disagree 100% too. I don't care what the context, culture, or year is, if your parent, child, or wife dies, you are going to be devastated.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Dustin said:


> Lol yeah I'm not sure if he meant that seriously or not but I disagree 100% too. I don't care what the context, culture, or year is, if your parent, child, or wife dies, you are going to be devastated.


I was reading today a letter of sympathy from Beethoven to the Countess Erdody on the death of her son, about 1815. It was quite heartfelt and the tragedy of the event comes through clearly.

Yes, I think the death of a child has never been something easily borne, even if it was previously more common than now. But some things have changed. The Countess's son died from injuries incurred when beaten by his tutor. The tutor was taken to law but acquitted.


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## Aramis (Mar 1, 2009)

MacLeod said:


> Seriously?


No. I didn't think I'd have to write that, too optimistic again. I even got "like" from ptr who thought I really did agree with him.


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## GreenMamba (Oct 14, 2012)

Beethoven was definitely stressed out. If only he had recordings to calm him down.


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## amfortas (Jun 15, 2011)

Aramis said:


> No. I didn't think I'd have to write that, too optimistic again. I even got "like" from ptr who thought I really did agree with him.


Been there, man. I feel for ya'.


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## Orfeo (Nov 14, 2013)

Ukko said:


> You gotta read up on him, and make your own determination. Near as I can tell from doing that, he was severely afflicted with a composing compulsion, which left him insufficient opportunity to become adept at 'normal' social intercourse.
> 
> At this distance in time and space, that's fine with me; I like the results from that composing compulsion.
> 
> (Ukko, the Neo-Jungian Hillbilly)


And plus, if I remember this correctly, he had a pretty nasty custody battle over his nephew, Karl, not to mention,

1) the losing and the eventual loss of his hearing,
2) the criticisms against his music as he was exploring new boundaries (like his Eroica Symphony for instance),
3) that huge sense of betrayal once his then idol Napoleon declared himself Emperor of France,
4) the illnesses he endured,
5) bouts with alcoholism,
6) relationship difficulties with family and women.

I would say Beethoven led a very stressful, turbulent life, especially given the kind of era in which he lived. Between 1 and 10 in the stress test (level), I would say eight.


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## Serge (Mar 25, 2010)

If Beethoven was stressed out, he had plenty of cheap wine to calm him down. But, then again, that's what killed him in the end, I hear.


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## Orfeo (Nov 14, 2013)

hpowders said:


> In the 1700-1800's people stank; they didn't bathe much; no Colgate toothpaste around either; they rode around in horse-drawn carriages and the stinky horse manure was everywhere.
> 
> There was no electricity. No MTV. No Tanzen Mit Den Sternen to kill an hour. No CD's. No smart phones. Constant wars. A rigid class system. Fortepianos that had horrible mechanisms. Chronic deafness. Audiologists who didn't know their arses from their elbows.
> 
> Wouldn't you be a little stressed too??


No Colgate toothpaste. I gotta laugh at this one (and right before bed, my goodness). :lol:


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## amfortas (Jun 15, 2011)

Serge said:


> If Beethoven was stressed out, he had plenty of cheap wine to calm him down. But, then again, that's what killed him in the end, I hear.


It was Salieri.


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## Fugue Meister (Jul 5, 2014)

Salieri had nothing to do with it having already been dead for nearly a year. 

I believe Beethoven was susceptible to high levels of stress, again agreeing with others that the loss of his hearing would be a tremendous blow to his psyche and mental being... but he eventually overcame because of the sheer wonder of his artistry. I can't imagine being responsible for creating some of the greatest traces of human kind. Beethoven we know was very aware of his glorious gift and I'm sure his eagerness and love of humanity won over any major bouts with it he faced, if you doubt that you should revisit his music. 

As I've said before to me Beethoven's music is the triumph of the human spirit over all odds. If anything the one word I would use to describe it is: optimistic.


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## Guest (Jul 22, 2014)

Fugue Meister said:


> Salieri had nothing to do with it having already been dead for nearly a year.


Most ingenious alibi EVER.


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## Varick (Apr 30, 2014)

Well in the movie "Immortal Beloved" it showed that he was stressed out. I mean, how much more historical accuracy do you need?

V


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## GreenMamba (Oct 14, 2012)

Fugue Meister said:


> Salieri had nothing to do with it having already been dead for nearly a year.


Interesting. And what (or should I say, who) killed Salieri?


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## SiegendesLicht (Mar 4, 2012)

hpowders said:


> There was no electricity. No MTV. No Tanzen Mit Den Sternen to kill an hour. No CD's. No smart phones.


Could it be one of the reasons their music is so much better than music in the age of smart phones? They did not have all these distractions to keep them away from composing. The listeners probably had a much greater attention span too.


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## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

If the bullying, impossible-to-please nature of his father is to be believed then perhaps it's little wonder that Beethoven carried a fair amount of emotional baggage into adulthood.


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## SONNET CLV (May 31, 2014)

Thank Whomever for whatever stress Beethoven had that led to such works as the symphonies and the late quartets. I hate to say this, but I'm glad he wasn't a totally satisfied "happy camper". Such bliss can certainly ruin artistic ambition. How many happy, accomplished and productive artists do we have in our history?


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

If you are a composer whose livelihood depends in good part upon the income from performing and teaching (piano), to then acquire _the worst possible handicap a musician can have, deafness,_ is going to be one hell of a wrench. No more performing or teaching the piano. Of a sudden, you are wholly dependent upon what you write which gets published and sells copies, the sonatas, quartets, trios, more than what you may make in the way of commissions, or the erratic gains from the works being performed. Now _that_ is formidable stress.


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## brianvds (May 1, 2013)

Ingélou said:


> his lack of attention to his clothes & personal hygiene are very typical of people sunk in depression, then and now.


It was a weird mixed bag though: from what I read, he was one of the few people of his time who bathed daily and cleaned his teeth, even as he dressed shabbily and allowed the law of entropy free reign in his house.

Like many brilliant and eccentric people, he remains something of an enigma, the real Beethoven an elusive figure behind the popular image.


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## Varick (Apr 30, 2014)

SONNET CLV said:


> Thank Whomever for whatever stress Beethoven had that led to such works as the symphonies and the late quartets. I hate to say this, but I'm glad he wasn't a totally satisfied "happy camper". Such bliss can certainly ruin artistic ambition. How many happy, accomplished and productive artists do we have in our history?


Much more than you think. J.S. Bach was happy, although a perfectionist. Handel was happy (even though he was quick tempered), Haydn was most certainly happy, as was Rachmaninoff (regardless of the drab personality he is erroneously said to have. Every one who knew him claimed that he had a fantastic sense of humor and laughed easily), just to name a few.

This notion that angst within an artist is needed in order to create great, meaningful, and deep works of art is bull.

This is a false notion that I hear constantly that people who are sad, or gloomy, or full of angst are deep and those who are happy are not, baffles me. It's simply not true. There are deep people who are sad and there are deep people who are happy. There are great artists who are sad (or pick your negative mood), and great artists who are happy. One has nothing to do with the other.

V


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