# Haydn's finest symphony(or ies if we must)



## clavichorder (May 2, 2011)

Pick one Haydn symphony to best represent him, his symphony masterpiece. Which one would it be? 

I can't confine myself to one, so I say two symphonies:

Symphony 101, the clock. It has the best first movement and the best second movement of any Haydn symphony I can think of. The next two movements there's nothing the matter with.

Symphony 88. This symphony is probably the most inspired overall I can think of, there is not a chip in its armor and it is deservedly famous. That finale really ends it nicely. I don't think there is a piece of music with a more satisfyingly sweet mood to it.


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## clavichorder (May 2, 2011)

Admittedly, I know about half of his later symphonies, 80-104. I know all of his 40s. There is kind of a gap with a few islands from 53 to 79. I have heard all of the early ones.

Of those I've heard, from the 80s, 83, 84 and 85 are standouts. 82 is nice as well. 89 does not seem to be up to the level of this period, seems almost an early piece. 86 is a little under the average of this period. 88 is head and shoulders above them all. I don't know 80, 81, and 87.

Of the 90s, I can't be as thorough. But 96 and 94 are well known to be fine. 92 has never impressed me as much as it seems it should with its title. 95 is quirky and different. Its seems 97, 98 and 99 are quite interesting, though I'd have to listen more, they seem very well developed, but with less overt thematic enticement than the last three. 93, 91, and 90 are not known very well. 101(a star), is top notch. 104 is grander than any other. 100 is very fun with its finale. 102 and 103 are known to be very good, but I have not given them much attention.


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## Crudblud (Dec 29, 2011)

That's a tough one, I think like many other people my favourite is 88, but the Paris and London symphonies are good too, and I quite like No. 30.


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## clavichorder (May 2, 2011)

Of 40 through 53, I say that they are pretty much all good, but not at the same level of developmental ambition as the later symphonies, though often a little edgier. 45, 51, 48, are my favorites. 47, 52, 53, are pretty relatively complex, 53 being unusually like a later symphony, 52, very sturm and drang, 47 nice horn parts and themes. 40 is very attractive, nice second movement especially. 41 has a very surprising sweep in the first movement. 42 less good. 43 a step up. 44 a step into sturm and drang. 46, B major! But that's the most interesting thing about it, still good. 49 is very minor key and weirdly structured with a slow first movement, almost an earlier symphony. 50 better than 42.


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## clavichorder (May 2, 2011)

There are too many early ones at this time, and I'm not as fond of them overall, so I leave those up to another person.


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## DavidMahler (Dec 28, 2009)

Wow, there's too many

But if I had to pick my three favorites it would be

92nd in G Major The Oxford

The 95th in C Minor

and the 102nd in B-flat


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## Vesteralen (Jul 14, 2011)

I think 96 (the so-called, but erroneously-named "Miracle") has always been my favorite. All four movements are attractive to me. 

102 was my first Haydn symphony experience, and I have a real soft-spot in my heart for that one as well. It is also a nearly perfect example of the mature Haydn.


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## kv466 (May 18, 2011)

Impossible question for me to answer...between the first and last, take your pick.


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## pollux (Nov 11, 2011)

kv466 said:


> Impossible question for me to answer...between the first and last, take your pick.


The same thing here. Well, as I've seen no. 102 cited, that could be my vote too. Haydn and Brahms are my favourite symphony composers, but Brahms only composed four, the lazy guy.


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## clavichorder (May 2, 2011)

DavidMahler said:


> 92nd in G Major The Oxford
> 
> The 95th in C Minor
> 
> and the 102nd in B-flat


For some reason I've never been as crazy about Oxford. 95th is weird and interesting. 102, I've heard it before and have been impressed, its very mature, but I can't say I know it as well.


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## clavichorder (May 2, 2011)

Vesteralen said:


> I think 96 (the so-called, but erroneously-named "Miracle") has always been my favorite. All four movements are attractive to me.
> 
> 102 was my first Haydn symphony experience, and I have a real soft-spot in my heart for that one as well. It is also a nearly perfect example of the mature Haydn.


We have another for 102. It looks like I'll have to be listening to that one again. 96 is really incredibly charming.


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## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

87 and 100. The former with period instruments, the latter with modern.


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## Chris (Jun 1, 2010)

clavichorder said:


> Symphony 101, the clock. It has the best first movement and the best second movement of any Haydn symphony I can think of.


...and Haydn's very best fourth movement


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## Eviticus (Dec 8, 2011)

Of the ones i've heard definately *104!* Like all the greats he finishes with his best.


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## jalex (Aug 21, 2011)

103 for me.


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## pjang23 (Oct 8, 2009)

Extremely difficult to choose... what would you consider the best representatives of his Sturm und Drang symphonies? I like No.44.


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## HarpsichordConcerto (Jan 1, 2010)

There should have been a poll with 106 options for this thread. I'm disappointed we didn't get a poll!

He wrote 106. The extra two were early pieces.

Haydn is amongst my tier one, top 5 composers. I have 106 reasons why I place him there.


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## poconoron (Oct 26, 2011)

At the moment, my favorite is #92 - Oxford. 

But I have not yet listened to any of his earlier symphonies prior to #83!!

This just reminds me of a gaping hole in my music library.


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## Eviticus (Dec 8, 2011)

HarpsichordConcerto said:


> There should have been a poll with 106 options for this thread. I'm disappointed we didn't get a poll!
> 
> He wrote 106. The extra two were early pieces.
> 
> Haydn is amongst my tier one, top 5 composers. I have 106 reasons why I place him there.


So is 104 really 106? 

Surely its disputable he even wrote over 100? Are all of them verified Haydn? I bet some of he really good ones were wrote by his Brother Michael! 

No.99 is also an overlooked gem!


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## clavichorder (May 2, 2011)

I'm surprised no one mentioned his 45th symphony as a favorite. Its certainly one of his very best.


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## Olias (Nov 18, 2010)

88, 100, and 104.

I particularly like the third movement of the 88th. The minuet is aristocratic music for the court while the trio is rustic wind band music for the country common folk. Then the fourth movement country dance in rondo form is so much fun. I dare you not to smile when you hear that melody.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

Of the ones I've heard, my "favourite" is not typical of Haydn for various reasons. Eg. being in a minor key and having the church sonata format (slow-fast-slow-fast movement layout). It's his_* Symphony No. 49 in F minor*_ (nicknamed _La Passione_), quite an intensely dark work...


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## brianwalker (Dec 9, 2011)

clavichorder said:


> I'm surprised no one mentioned his 45th symphony as a favorite. Its certainly one of his very best.


I don't think that most people are devoted enough to get to 45.


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## HarpsichordConcerto (Jan 1, 2010)

A bright, no fuss and vivacious movement. Symphony #23, 1st movement. The Academy of Ancient Music (on period instruments) playing at Esterhazy Palace, using the likely orchestral forces (we know via employment records revealing who was employed as musicians and when etc.)


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## clavichorder (May 2, 2011)

brianwalker said:


> I don't think that most people are devoted enough to get to 45.


 But that's the Farewell symphony! Its famous beyond its number. All the movements are fantastic and the finale is so unique with its fading out and people walking off, and a great fast melody to boot.


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## clavichorder (May 2, 2011)

Symphony 5 is my favorite of the earliest, especially with its awesome slow first movement and great melody in the 2nd fast movement





Lamentation is very good.


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## violadude (May 2, 2011)

clavichorder said:


> Symphony 5 is my favorite of the earliest, especially with its awesome slow first movement and great melody in the 2nd fast movement
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Beethoven's 5th is better!!!! 

............


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## clavichorder (May 2, 2011)

violadude said:


> Beethoven's 5th is better!!!!
> 
> ............


****! I can't argue with that.


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## violadude (May 2, 2011)

clavichorder said:


> ****! I can't argue with that.


I probably could if I listened all the way through that video.


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## clavichorder (May 2, 2011)

violadude said:


> I probably could if I listened all the way through that video.


That second movement's melody really sticks out to me, scroll over to the first fast part and you might be charmed. There is nothing ethically the matter with skimming when there is a lot of music out there.


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## violadude (May 2, 2011)

clavichorder said:


> That second movement's melody really sticks out to me, scroll over to the first fast part and you might be charmed. There is nothing ethically the matter with skimming when there is a lot of music out there.


Where does it start?


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## clavichorder (May 2, 2011)

violadude said:


> Where does it start?


6:53. For maximum effect, another time, listen with the slow movement before for a sense of contrast.


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## violadude (May 2, 2011)

Oh sweet! Violin solos...

Beethoven's 5th doesn't have violin solos....


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## clavichorder (May 2, 2011)

violadude said:


> Oh sweet! Violin solos...
> 
> Beethoven's 5th doesn't have violin solos....


Yeah, Beethoven can just go stuff it!


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## TrazomGangflow (Sep 9, 2011)

45 Farewell. Like many of Haydn's symphonies it has such creativity in it.


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## poconoron (Oct 26, 2011)

After re-visiting a good number of the Haydn symphonies over the past few days, I would go so far as to say Mr. Haydn was THE most inventive composer for symphonies that I've ever heard. Yes, more so than Mozart, Beethoven, Schubert, Brahms, etc. IMHO.
Because he wrote 104 of them and so many of top quality, his symphonies on an individual basis get _lost in the sauce_, so to speak!

No doubt in my mind that Haydn's staggering accomplishments with the symphony........and the string quartet.........and the oratorio..........and church music and other genres propels him into the very top tier of 5 greatest composers.

And, I think he was being unduly modest when quoted once: "My friends often flatter me about my talent, but he (Mozart) was far above me."


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## RandallPeterListens (Feb 9, 2012)

Of course, impossible to pick only one which is the "best".

But, just for fun, I will say the Symphony #88. The development portion of the first movement never fails to take the top of my head off (which I gingerly replace afterwards). I have an old (early 1960s?) recording of this by, of all people, Fritz Reiner and the Chicago SO which is still the best interpretation I've heard. He takes that movement at freight-train tempo but it works.


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## clavichorder (May 2, 2011)

As much as I love Haydn, the one thing I get tired of with his music is that he does have less harmonic innovation than Mozart. But I love how he usually compensates with his theme development and quirky phrasing.


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## Arsakes (Feb 20, 2012)

Symphony No.92 'Oxford'
Symphony No.94 'Surprise'
Symphony No.26 in D minor, 'Lamentatione'


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## tdc (Jan 17, 2011)

clavichorder said:


> As much as I love Haydn, *the one thing I get tired of with his music is that he does have less harmonic innovation than Mozart*. But I love how he usually compensates with his theme development and quirky phrasing.


I hear this...and while I can hear the beauty and craftsmanship in much of his music, I just don't hear any sparks or sizzles or excitement. I hear a composer who seemed to never take any chances or risks, or explore new ground. Haydn didn't seem to try and grow as an artist much to my ears - as a composer he comes across as highly competent but formulaic, predictable and static.


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## humanbean (Mar 5, 2011)

Hmm, lets see. I haven't heard all of the yet, unfortunately, but nearly every one that I have heard has something to enjoy.

My favorites include:
No. 1 (esp. mvt. 2) Fischer
No. 14 (esp. mvt. 3) Fischer
No. 38 "Echo" - Pinnock
No. 65 - Fischer
No. 81 - Fischer, Hogwood (see below)
No. 82 (esp. mvt 1, which has one of the most amazing violent "ripping" string section I've ever heard in a classical symphony) - Fischer
No. 92 (esp. mvt 1, with the most triumphant theme ever and mvt 2. which is extremely calm and beautiful) - Fischer
Nos. 94, 100 (mvt 3.) and 101 - Fischer

Oh, and take a listen to this extremely odd but great minuet movement from his 81st, conducted by Hogwood:


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## chrisco97 (May 22, 2013)

I simply adore all of the Haydn symphonies I have heard, but my favourite is 45 (the Farewell Symphony). And the way the first performance was done sounds so awesome. Would have loved to have seen that.


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## Kieran (Aug 24, 2010)

chrisco97 said:


> I simply adore all of the Haydn symphonies I have heard, but my favourite is 45 (the Farewell Symphony). And the way the first performance was done sounds so awesome. Would have loved to have seen that.


I don't know how well known it is, but Mozarts last three symphs mirror the keys Haydn used in his Paris symphonies. I think it was the Paris ones, Ramako would know. Huge symphonist, old Papa!


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## starry (Jun 2, 2009)

104 is the most famous but I wonder if _103_ is actually at least as good. Maybe it's even better.

_97_ I've always felt would be rated higher if it had a nickname, it's unfortunate it never gained one.

_48_ is a great ceremonial piece, though _49_ is certainly a very deep work and I was happy to see someone mentioned it.


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## Wood (Feb 21, 2013)

Kieran said:


> I don't know how well known it is, but Mozarts last three symphs mirror the keys Haydn used in his Paris symphonies. I think it was the Paris ones, Ramako would know. Huge symphonist, old Papa!


Yes, the first three Paris symphonies, 82-84, are C, G minor and E flat.


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## starry (Jun 2, 2009)

That could easily be chance?


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## Kieran (Aug 24, 2010)

starry said:


> That could easily be chance?


It could be but I think given how highly Mozart regarded Haydn, it may not be. I think he composed other works which mirrored the keys Haydn used. I'll root out my HC Robbins Landon, he's the go-to chappy for Mozart-Haydn stuff...


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## starry (Jun 2, 2009)

I wouldn't say they are his most Haydnesque symphonies, that relates more to earlier stuff. And some of these keys are quite popular in general with composers of the time anyway. And he had used G minor in the past for grief ridden works, and perhaps the death of his daughter might have been impetus to go back to it more than that another composer had used it in a work.


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## Kieran (Aug 24, 2010)

starry said:


> I wouldn't say they are his most Haydnesque symphonies, that relates more to earlier stuff. And some of these keys are quite popular in general with composers of the time anyway. And he had used G minor in the past for grief ridden works, and perhaps the death of his daughter might have been impetus to go back to it more than that another composer had used it in a work.


No, they're not Haydnesque. I can't find my Robbins Landon, so I consulted Julian Rushton:

"Although the most obvious intention in writing such works was to supply works for performance, they may have been partly inspired by the recent publication of Haydn's 'Paris' symphonies, three of them in the same keys. If so, as with the Haydn quartets, the spirit of emulation rather than of imitation, was what drove Mozart."

I've read similar things about other works. He has a commission, he's inspired by another work, he sets off at a rapid pace...


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## starry (Jun 2, 2009)

The Haydn quartets were obviously more inspired by Haydn, they were even dedicated to him. Do we know for sure he had an immediate commission for the last 3 symphonies? There's even uncertainty as to whether they were even performed in his lifetime, the G minor may have been.


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## Kieran (Aug 24, 2010)

starry said:


> The Haydn quartets were obviously more inspired by Haydn, they were even dedicated to him. Do we know for sure he had an immediate commission for the last 3 symphonies? There's even uncertainty as to whether they were even performed in his lifetime, the G minor may have been.


No, there's no real uncertainty, they were performed in his lifetime. It used to be romantically believed he composed the last three symphs through some inner necessity to unburden himself, but now that kind of dreamy theorizing isn't given much shrift. Neal Zaslaw's book on the symphonies is probably the most forensic in tracking down concert performances of these three, but he also mentions them in this excellent article on Wolfgang as a working composer.

The quartets were a gift to Papa, and they show a tremendous affection and respect for Haydn, don't they?

As for Haydn's symphs, I recently heard #103 which you mentioned and agree - it's a top notch symph!


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## starry (Jun 2, 2009)

Yeh 103 is great. The last movement has the same kind of relentless energy of the last movement of 97 (I've liked Jochum in that). I'm sure that kind of music inspired Beeethoven. I'd love to have heard how Mozart's symphonies could have developed with better orchestras and with more instruments at his disposal. There's no reason to think he couldn't have been quite ambitious. Something obviously inspired him to write those symphonies, I assume it wasn't just on a whim. And he was desperate for money at the time so it would be strange writing something he didn't think would get a performance.


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## starry (Jun 2, 2009)

That Zaslaw article obviously tries to strike a balance between the romantic notion of the composer and the craftsman. And perhaps having his father control the finances while he was in Saltzburg did make it a harder transition for him later when times did eventually get tougher. Of course a lot of it is guesswork. To assume that Mozart may have tired of composing had he got permanently rich and stopped altogether isn't as likely as maybe a more gradual slowing down as he got older in my opinion. Haydn said that he kept getting musical ideas even after he had retired but he just didn't have the energy to write them down and compose pieces. I'm not sure Mozart would have stopped having ideas. And just like having Haydn around encouraged him to develop his work maybe Beethoven would have done the same for a while.


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## Ramako (Apr 28, 2012)

Haydn's finest symphony? Not speaking objectively, I would have to go for 44 for the strength and variety of its expression, and probably 104 (although all the London ones are very good) which I think is a great, and very Haydnesque, farewell to the genre (no pun intended).

On the 'note' of keys, it was not uncommon at the time for composers to write pieces directly inspired by another composer's piece written in the same key. Possibly the most famous is the slew of several g minor symphonies in the late 1760s and early 1770s. It is not sure whether the first was Vanhal's or Haydn's (39), though I think opinions lean towards Vanhal. Haydn's 39th is a fantastic work nonetheless: after this there were other composers who jumped on this bandwagon writing a g minor symphony, at least one of the Bach brothers if I remember, but the most famous result is Mozart's 25th.


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## Kleinzeit (May 15, 2013)

I found that Zaslaw book on Mozart at the Valu Village last week, $5. 

OOP in Canada, $72 Yankee


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## Il_Penseroso (Nov 20, 2010)

jalex said:


> 103 for me.


I'll second your choice... definitely his finest!


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## Roi N (Oct 22, 2013)

A question for the ages. He has such diversity. From _Sturm und Drang_ to sheer joy, Haydn's greatest acheivement should be a number of symphonies, and a large one at that (more than Beethoven's entire symphonic repertoire) 
But if one must truley only pick one, it has to be Symphony No. 101 in D Major 'The Clock'. The main theme of the first movement is just so Haydn. A rising scale as a lead into the symphony is a great idea, but Haydn does not leave it at that - he developes it as it were a theme on its own. 
The second movement is cute (I believe Haydn has better variations, but this set is also quite nice), and the third movement is one of the longer and better built minuets to ever be created. 
Haydn saves the best for last, ending the symphony with a finale for the ages. A monothematic rondo sonata? Only Haydn can acheive it. He variates the theme to such a degree, he even creates a contrapunctual version of it.
This is truely one of the high points of music as a whole.

(oh and I like Haydn's symphonies so much I even edit the pages of them on wikipedia)


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

For me Haydn's finest symphony from first note to last is the 94th in G Major, "mit dem Paukenschlag" (The Surprise).

It's of course famous for its slow movement. I find it an incomparable masterpiece from first note to last.


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## Funny (Nov 30, 2013)

The impossibility of narrowing it down to one has been mitigated by seeing many of my faves mentioned by others, so I can put my money on one I haven't seen lauded here: No. 80. From the outright burlesque of the first movement being "fought over" by a bombastic, ever-so-serious theme and a comically carefree liming waltz, he derives a 3-repeated-notes motive (laid out at the beginning of the 2nd as an echo of the waltz theme's upbeat) that carries through into the last movement, where it becomes a joke about syncopation and our attempts to try to process it - all the while remaining tuneful and listenable right to the very last 3 notes!


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## HaydnBearstheClock (Jul 6, 2013)

I'd do go with 104 - it somehow has everything - both the 'epic' Haydn and the humourous one. And I love those baroque-like moments in the 1st and 2nd movements.


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## Haydn man (Jan 25, 2014)

Well this is a hard one because there are many candidates and previous posts have made persuasive arguments for them
But if one it has to be then I will also choose 104


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## starry (Jun 2, 2009)

104 is the standard safe choice being probably the most played over the years partly because it is his last and because it is the London symphony of the London symphonies. So I'm happy many didn't pick it.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

I would say 94 has it well beaten. Infectious from first note to last. Not surprising.


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## shangoyal (Sep 22, 2013)

A great thread idea, even if the question is very daunting. I love Haydn's symphonies in general and like a lot of them to single any yet. Maybe after a decade, I can say.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

I could choose any of the Paris or London Symphonies blindfolded and be reasonably well-satisfied with my choice.


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## starry (Jun 2, 2009)

I remember thinking in recent times that one Paris symphony stood way above the others, that being 84. Can't say the others have made as big an impression on me from start to end. But of course if a symphony doesn't get a nickname it's less likely to become so famous, that's how things go with the listening public, same with 97.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

The Bear and The Hen are both terrific Paris Symphonies.

Yes. Agree on the nicknames.

Both 97 and 98 are among Haydn's finest efforts, though nameless and unpopular because of it.


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## HaydnBearstheClock (Jul 6, 2013)

Symphony 52 in C minor is one of his best minor mode efforts imo. It has a great 1st movement that's quite similar to the 1st movement from Beethoven's 5th.


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## Alydon (May 16, 2012)

Haydn has been in my top 4 composers for over 40 years and I can say without doubt my favourite symphony has to be No 86 D major - a magnificent work on many levels. Saying that, if could choose from many others and if you wanted to sum up Haydn it would have to be No 96 - but this is a very difficult call.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

#96; A miraculous choice!


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## Alydon (May 16, 2012)

hpowders said:


> #96; A miraculous choice!


I believe the first one I bought - seemed to have every good bit in it and a great nickname!


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## starry (Jun 2, 2009)

I'd call 97 "The Majestic".


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Let's meet back here in 60 years and see if the name "The Majestic" has stuck.


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## starry (Jun 2, 2009)

Make it 30 or a bit more, would give me more chance of being alive.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Okay, but I had to change my plans around. Wish you could have given me a bit more advance notice.

I'll see of I can order "The Majestic" on Amazon yet. Good thing it's not called "The Titanic".


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## DaDirkNL (Aug 26, 2013)

The 96th is Haydn's finest symphony to me. It combines creativity, diversity, and structural formality to a perfect level.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

I'm sure we can find advocates for each of the 93-104 symphonies.


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## starry (Jun 2, 2009)

95 has probably been the least popular.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

c minor is a tough pill to swallow.


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## HaydnBearstheClock (Jul 6, 2013)

hpowders said:


> c minor is a tough pill to swallow.


95 is a great symphony, the Londoners are, in quality, all amazing .


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

HaydnBearstheClock said:


> 95 is a great symphony, the Londoners are, in quality, all amazing .


I just ordered 93-104 with Bernstein and the NY Philharmonic. I used to have 101 and 103 by them, but think it was on vinyl.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

I need a shoehorn to get another boxed set into my music room!!! :lol:


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## HaydnBearstheClock (Jul 6, 2013)

hpowders said:


> I just ordered 93-104 with Bernstein and the NY Philharmonic. I used to have 101 and 103 by them, but think it was on vinyl.


sweet . So far, I have Günther Herbig's set and some of the Londoners by Klemperer. I prefer Herbig for his slick sound but Klemperer's tempi are sometimes more appropriate imo, for eg. in 102. Both are really good though, but not sure which is the 'best' set - what's your favourite set so far?


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## Oskaar (Mar 17, 2011)

Hope this thread will have interrest in the future, I have plans to letting the all to know. Listened to them occationaly but then on random, often mixed with other music, unaware of what I have listened to.
But today I listened to no 67 more critically since it is on the present TC-list. First movement was nothing special at first listen, but second and third: Amazing!
So I must mention no. 67 since it is the only one, but also since it is really good! I heard a very good reccording, Austro-Hungarian Haydn Orchestra - The Esterházy Recordings - Conductor: Adam Fischer, and that I think helps very much to capture and submit the delicaties in the symphony.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

HaydnBearstheClock said:


> sweet . So far, I have Günther Herbig's set and some of the Londoners by Klemperer. I prefer Herbig for his slick sound but Klemperer's tempi are sometimes more appropriate imo, for eg. in 102. Both are really good though, but not sure which is the 'best' set - what's your favourite set so far?


I have a few Szell/Cleveland performances that I like, but Szell never did the entire 12.
Davis and Marriner are okay; so is Jochum, but I've never heard a set of the London 12 that I've really gone nuts over-the performances, not the music.
We really could use a superlative set of the London Symphonies from Pinnock or whomever.


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