# A 2nd movement of a symphony



## adrien (Sep 12, 2016)

Hi everyone.

So I had a crazy idea to write a symphony. Ok, it's not a unique idea. But it's certainly a bit crazy for me.

I got 9 minutes into movement 1/3/4 (haven't decided which it is) and hit a roadblock, so decided to write something with a horn solo, a la Tchaik 5 or Borodin 2.

This is the result.

It also kinda conveys how I feel about this whole Ukrainian situation. So terrible.

EDIT: updated link to longer version






Any comments gratefully received.

Thanks

Adrien


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## mpmcd101 (9 mo ago)

Hi Adrien,

This is quite promising, very cinematic. I don't know where you might go with it next but I hope you keep at it, I think it will be worth it.
It does have a bit of a fatalistic feel so far and it would be nice to feature a bit of the heroism that Ukrainia is showing in the face of it's opressors.


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## adrien (Sep 12, 2016)

mpmcd101 said:


> Hi Adrien,
> 
> This is quite promising, very cinematic. I don't know where you might go with it next but I hope you keep at it, I think it will be worth it.
> It does have a bit of a fatalistic feel so far and it would be nice to feature a bit of the heroism that Ukrainia is showing in the face of it's opressors.


I agree about the heroism. I've already done a bit in this vein, but also thinking about the rest of the symphony. It could be that each movement shouldn't tell the whole story, but each tell a part. There has definitely been some cause for despair about this whole thing. I guess if I pushed myself harder to actually make this about the Ukraine war, then I would have to tackle some very difficult feelings and events. I'm not sure I want to take it there, but such things are typically great inspiration.


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## Bruce (Jan 2, 2013)

Wow, this is really nice! I agree that a horn solo might be a good central section, but the music up has been so serene so far, I would like to hear something more _agitato_. Maybe introduce a horn solo with some growling in the bases, developing the rhythmic motif in the timpani at D. Something along the lines of what Mahler does at the beginning of the final movement of his second symphony. And expression of anger at the tragedy in Ukraine.


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## adrien (Sep 12, 2016)

Bruce said:


> Wow, this is really nice! I agree that a horn solo might be a good central section, but the music up has been so serene so far, I would like to hear something more _agitato_. Maybe introduce a horn solo with some growling in the bases, developing the rhythmic motif in the timpani at D. Something along the lines of what Mahler does at the beginning of the final movement of his second symphony. And expression of anger at the tragedy in Ukraine.


Hi thanks! I wasn't planning a second horn solo, just re-use that theme later on in full orchestra.


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## adrien (Sep 12, 2016)

OK. I think I have pretty much a final structure now. It's a lot longer, and goes to more places on its journey. It got even more fatalistic, but also lots of hope and courage (I think)

Hope you enjoy



http://www.sundayclub.com/adrien/symphony_no_1_movt2.mp3


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## adrien (Sep 12, 2016)

or for those who prefer youtube videos I updated the link at the top


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## mpmcd101 (9 mo ago)

Hi Adrien,

I'm just listening a second time to your new 12 minute version, It's quite lovely. I also think it fits well with being a second movement, the first (which I haven't heard) is usually more boisterous, as possibley is the last, although this too has some fairly boisterous moments, it has an overall feeling of tragedy about it and some very sweet moments of hope, that to my mind, suit a 2nd movt.

I liked your use of the percusion by the way, very well done. (Something I have yet to master)!

There are 1 or 2 instances of consecutively repeated bars here and there that would (for me) benefit from a tiny tonal extention of the repeated second phrase, just to further the tension, or at least I might have done that myself, it is your creation and as I said, I really do like it as it is. So much so that I downloaded it to keep a copy, hope you don't mind.

How long did it take you to produce this version?

I hope you get the other movements done because I think you have something good here and I know you would be very pleased with yourself if you could finish it, and rightfully so, it would be no mean achievement, but it really would be worth it, even if just to your own sense of pride and accomplishment, and I for one would certainly like to hear it.

best Regards
Mark


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## adrien (Sep 12, 2016)

Thanks so much Mark.

It took me a couple of weeks from the first version to the one I posted yesterday. I could probably spend another 2 weeks on it, and then another 2. It's never done.

I have written part of another movement, but that got stalled, and that's what prompted me to start on this 2nd. Unfortunately (or fortunately) the colour of this movement doesn't really mesh with the other work, and it's much stronger thematically so I will have to do a lot of re-work and ruthless pruning and rewriting of the other movement. Maybe that will unblock it.

Every time I think about it I start to have bad thoughts, like "I wonder if I could get away with a 2 minute 3rd movement". I guess I must be very lazy. Or ill-disciplined!

Percussion has always been a struggle for me as well. I often find the un-pitchedness to be quite off-putting. In the end the thing that I think helped me a lot with this latest piece is that I got new studio monitors and calibrated them for my room (still waiting on bass traps). Being able to hear what is going on makes a massive difference, since I compose 99% by ear.


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## mpmcd101 (9 mo ago)

I know what you mean, I find it hard to leave them alone too, there's always something that you could change but at some point you have to say "enough"! lol.

I too write by ear and you're right, the quality of the rendering makes a lot of difference, in your case, your set up sounds really good. I use sibelius and noteperformer, it's not bad but not quite on the same level as some of the more expensive (and therefore out of my range) virtual instruments.

I don't know if it will make any difference to you but I have a bit of a trick, when it comes to writing blocks. Take the whole thing and transpose it up or down a semitone or so. Not to keep it there, but to hear it in a different key brings out things you perhaps didn't hear in the original key. When your done, put it back to where it was.

Anyway, I wish you luck with the other movements, (there's no rule, by the way, about what length any movement needs to be), but I bet once you start, you'll find more than a couple of minutes worth of material.


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## adrien (Sep 12, 2016)

This was also all done with Sibelius and NotePerformer, but I use reverb and EQ plugins as well, from FabFilter. A long time ago now I heard someone's render with Altiverb, and it made such a difference. I tried things like Vienna Ensemble Pro with MIR, but in the end, just go back to trusty FabFilter. It steps the render quality up a notch once you have the EQ etc dialed in. Fabfilter is a fraction of the price of Altiverb, and doesn't use a dongle either which is the thing that has prevented me purchasing that software. You do need to turn off reverb from Sibelius though (set to dry rather than disabling it, otherwise it forgets the setting).

I could imagine a symphony with a 2 minute 3rd movement. I guess in the end what even is a movement for? Is it like a chapter in a book? A place where we let the reader take a breath?


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## adrien (Sep 12, 2016)

Updated again after several sessions with composition tutors.


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## CatchARisingStar (7 mo ago)

It's astonishing how far technology has come. To think someone could sit at home to compose and render this fantastic score using virtual instruments on his computer would absolutely floor Shostakovich, Mahler, Wagner (whose influence I think I'm hearing), etc. Can't wait for the entire symphony!


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

CatchARisingStar said:


> It's astonishing how far technology has come. To think someone could sit at home to compose and render this fantastic score using virtual instruments on his computer would absolutely floor Shostakovich, Mahler, Wagner (whose influence I think I'm hearing), etc. Can't wait for the entire symphony!


Probably for the best. If Wagner had access to a computer and score writer, the Ring Cycle would have been 48 hours long.


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## adrien (Sep 12, 2016)

CatchARisingStar said:


> It's astonishing how far technology has come. To think someone could sit at home to compose and render this fantastic score using virtual instruments on his computer would absolutely floor Shostakovich, Mahler, Wagner (whose influence I think I'm hearing), etc. Can't wait for the entire symphony!


Thank you! I’m glad you like it.


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## adrien (Sep 12, 2016)

Updated yet again. It's always amazing how much one can always find that they want to change in a work. I wonder if I'll ever be able to listen to it without something sticking out that I want to change.

Audio:
http://www.sundayclub.com/adrien/symphony_no_1_movt2.mp3 

Score:
http://www.sundayclub.com/adrien/symphony_no_1_movt2.pdf


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## Vasks (Dec 9, 2013)

adrien said:


> It's always amazing how much one can always find that they want to change in a work. I wonder if I'll ever be able to listen to it without something sticking out that I want to change.


Any time I revisit an older, completed work of mine, I tend to make revisions. However, it's probably not necessary. The finished first product will succeed or flop regardless of potential weak spots. And once a work is published, revisions are not going happen. So my pieces that were published 30-40 years ago and still get a performance now and then certainly contain spots I'd like to improve, but apparently the performers don't see/hear them for they're willing to play it as is.


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## adrien (Sep 12, 2016)

Vasks said:


> Any time I revisit an older, completed work of mine, I tend to make revisions. However, it's probably not necessary. The finished first product will succeed or flop regardless of potential weak spots. And once a work is published, revisions are not going happen. So my pieces that were published 30-40 years ago and still get a performance now and then certainly contain spots I'd like to improve, but apparently the performers don't see/hear them for they're willing to play it as is.


I guess there is a kind of continuum, or scale. On one end there's the desire to push a piece of music out as soon as possible, and on the other end a desire to make sure it's perfect first. As they say perfection is the enemy of the good, if we strive for perfection prior to releasing something, it will never be released. On the other hand if we push things out too early, then we end up wanting to revise it. 

I think I tend towards the early end of the scale, and so my weakness is lack of patience, overabundance of enthusiasm.

I guess I'm not alone. Notable examples abound, even Tchaikovsky's Romeo and Juliet Fantasy Overture is mostly known in its 3rd edition form. As for George Lucas and what he did tinkering with Star Wars.


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## dko22 (Jun 22, 2021)

I'm probably largely in your camp.Once I get going with a work, I want to get it finished. Once I've finished it, I do little in the way of revision until I come back to it, often years later and realise what a load of rubbish it is and try to make some improvements although the problem then is that my improved technique will not necessarily lend itself well to what I had in mind at that time.

By the way, I don't think it was such a crazy idea for you to write a symphony. It has a gorgeous tune and is crafted with considerable skill -- my problem is that for me there is too much filmic bombast near the climax in particular but I realise this is a matter of taste. The ending is certainly done with considerable refinement.


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## adrien (Sep 12, 2016)

dko22 said:


> I'm probably largely in your camp.Once I get going with a work, I want to get it finished. Once I've finished it, I do little in the way of revision until I come back to it, often years later and realise what a load of rubbish it is and try to make some improvements although the problem then is that my improved technique will not necessarily lend itself well to what I had in mind at that time.
> 
> By the way, I don't think it was such a crazy idea for you to write a symphony. It has a gorgeous tune and is crafted with considerable skill -- my problem is that for me there is too much filmic bombast near the climax in particular but I realise this is a matter of taste. The ending is certainly done with considerable refinement.


Hi

Thanks for your comments. It's interesting you describe the bombast (of which there is certainly plenty) as filmic. I never really get my head around that, I've been playing very bombastic music from the 19th century (well before film) in orchestras for the last 40 years, so film borrowed from that rather than defining it. It's odd how the focus changes over time.


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## dko22 (Jun 22, 2021)

adrien said:


> I've been playing very bombastic music from the 19th century (well before film) in orchestras for the last 40 years, so film borrowed from that rather than defining it


that's a perfectly valid point. Film has copied a certain style -- not necessarily the most subtle one -- but probably appropriate to the requirements of the medium.


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