# HELDENTENOR TOURNAMENT (Round 1, Match 1): Vickers vs Jerusalem



## Bonetan (Dec 22, 2016)

Jon Vickers, Canada, 1926-2015






Siegfried Jerusalem, Germany, 1940-






'Winterstürme' from Wagner's _Die Walküre_.

Who's singing did you prefer and why?


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Jerusalem would no doubt stand out amongst any of today's Wagner tenors (I hesitate to call them Heldentenors) but he is up against the force of nature who is Jon Vickers. Inimitable and sometimes idiosyncratic, he is one of my favourite singers of all time and Siegmund was one of his greatest roles. An easy choice for me.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

I've always liked Siegfried J, but as good as he is he loses out on beauty of singing and emotional interpretation to Vickers. Some of Vickers notes toward the end are just thrilling. Both of them are so handsome, which helps. Vickers is built like a wrestler.


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

Both have their positives and negatives. Vickers’ questionable German pronounciation for a start and Jerusalem’s boomy tone but you would travel a long way to hear their like today. Vickers was not helped by Böhm’s pace. Did he have somewhere urgent he needed to be? But I have to give it to Vickers for his ardency and ringing tone. A fine start to this competition.


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## vivalagentenuova (Jun 11, 2019)

Both respectable performances. Jerusalem saved me from quitting the Levine DVD _Ring_ altogether, and has a much more pleasing tone than many heldentenors since the 1970s. Still, the effort is apparent, and Vickers has a better instrument and capitalizes on that. I actually liked the tempo in the Vickers rendition. I though the Jerusalem one was way too slow. Coherency and a larger conception are the most important things to me in Wagner conducting, but all else being equal I prefer the tempi on the faster side.


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## wkasimer (Jun 5, 2017)

Not really a fair fight. I've always been a fan of Jerusalem for his musicality and generally attractive tone, but it's clearly an effort for him to be heard over that orchestra, while Vickers has no such difficulty in what was one of his signature roles.

But I voted for Jerusalem because I can't bear the thought of him being shut out.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

wkasimer said:


> Not really a fair fight. I've always been a fan of Jerusalem for his musicality and generally attractive tone, but it's clearly an effort for him to be heard over that orchestra, while Vickers has no such difficulty in what was one of his signature roles.
> 
> But I voted for Jerusalem because I can't bear the thought of him being shut out.


Was Jerusalem not quite a heldentenor in volume? Can't tell on second hand media.


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## wkasimer (Jun 5, 2017)

Seattleoperafan said:


> Was Jerusalem not quite a heldentenor in volume? Can't tell on second hand media.


I only heard him once, as Parsifal at the Met. His problem wasn't lack of volume, but the relative lack of squillo, so that his voice lacked brilliance and didn't make much of an impact, particularly during some of the more heavily orchestrated parts.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Vickers has always been Siegmund for me. He was one of the chief reasons why, when I bought the Solti _Ring_ on LP in my mid-teens, I chose the RCA Leinsdorf recording of _Die Walkure_ instead of the Solti. As good as James King is on the Solti set, the very timbre of Vickers' voice is able to evoke the loneliness and hauntedness of the character like that of no other singer. Vickers is also the Siegmund on Karajan's _Walkure,_ recorded several years after the Leinsdorf.

"Wintersturme" is a straightforward aria that would seem to be hard to spoil (though pretend heldentenors such as Vogt and noisemakers like Schager manage to do it), and we'd be lucky to hear either of these singers today, but Jerusalem's very good work has to stand down before someone who was born to sing the role. On recordings, I find only Melchior able to give Vickers a run for his money.


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## wkasimer (Jun 5, 2017)

Woodduck said:


> I find only Melchior able to give Vickers a run for his money.


It may be a matter of imprinting, but I've always like Suthaus on Furtwangler's commercial recording with the VPO.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

wkasimer said:


> It may be a matter of imprinting, but I've always like Suthaus on Furtwangler's commercial recording with the VPO.


Suthaus was an excellent Siegmund, without a doubt, and a fine Tristan too. I wish he had recorded both of those roles earlier; recordings from the 1940s seem to show a brighter, less throaty and opaque timbre than we hear on his '50s recordings with Furtwangler.

I disliked that Furtwangler _Walkure_ the moment I first heard it decades ago. Its singers, admirable artists though they were, were all past their primes, and for my money Martha Modl never had a prime. With Flagstad too old and Nilsson and Vickers too young, the early 1950s were problematic years for heroic voices. Melchior could still have done both Siegmund and Tristan, but I gather that Furtwangler didn't like him. And what about Set Svanholm? He was still in close to his best voice at that date. It would be interesting to hear that _Walkure_ recording again now. Perhaps I'd be more charitable.


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## Azol (Jan 25, 2015)

While recognizing Vickers as the force of nature, I've never been fan of his idiomatic voice.
On the other hand, I enjoyed Jerusalem in many roles (but not later in his career when his voice began to deteriorate quickly). Jerusalem has begun to sing some top-heavy roles way too early, in my opinion. Here he tries to force his voice which never sounds right.
So based on this particular performance I'd say Vickers is the guy!


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Azol said:


> While recognizing Vickers as the force of nature, I've never been fan of his idiomatic voice.


Don't you mean "idiosyncratic"? I know what you mean about Vickers. His idiosyncracies grew stronger as he aged, one of them being an exaggerated and croony _mezza voce,_ and I tend to prefer his earlier recordings. You can hear that tendency to exaggerate in his second recorded Siegmund under Karajan, as compared to his greater simplicity and directness under Leinsdorf. Still, it was a great voice and his artistry could sweep all before it. I wish he had been the Tristan in the performance with Nilsson I saw in 1972. It could have made a mediocre evening into a great one.


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## BachIsBest (Feb 17, 2018)

As a Canadian who grew up on the prairies, I feel obligated to vote for Vickers. Luckily, Vickers's singing makes any such obligations moot; he earns my vote regardless.

As a side note, I just got the _Otello_ he did with Karajan in the mail and plan on watching it tomorrow evening. This clip just made me even more excited!


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## vivalagentenuova (Jun 11, 2019)

BachIsBest said:


> As a Canadian who grew up on the prairies, I feel obligated to vote for Vickers. Luckily, Vickers's singing makes any such obligations moot; he earns my vote regardless.
> 
> As a side note, I just got the _Otello_ he did with Karajan in the mail and plan on watching it tomorrow evening. This clip just made me even more excited!


Interested in hearing your thoughts on it. Del Monaco's 1958 film with Carteri and Capecchi makes an interesting point of comparison.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Woodduck said:


> Don't you mean "idiosyncratic"? I know what you mean about Vickers. His idiosyncracies grew stronger as he aged, one of them being an exaggerated and croony _mezza voce,_ and I tend to prefer his earlier recordings. You can hear that tendency to exaggerate in his second recorded Siegmund under Karajan, as compared to his greater simplicity and directness under Leinsdorf. Still, it was a great voice and his artistry could sweep all before it. I wish he had been the Tristan in the performance with Nilsson I saw in 1972. It could have made a mediocre evening into a great one.


Do you know his early recital of Italian arias, conducted by Serafin and recorded at around the same time as his first Otello? It's a great favourite of mine. If you're interested, there's a short review on my blog. http://tsaraslondon.com/2019/03/27/jon-vickers-italian-opera-arias/


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

BachIsBest said:


> As a Canadian who grew up on the prairies, I feel obligated to vote for Vickers. Luckily, Vickers's singing makes any such obligations moot; he earns my vote regardless.
> 
> As a side note, I just got the _Otello_ he did with Karajan in the mail and plan on watching it tomorrow evening. This clip just made me even more excited!


Even better is the 1978 Met performance with Scotto as Desdemona, which is absolutely shattering in its cumulative intensity.


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## Azol (Jan 25, 2015)

Woodduck said:


> Don't you mean "idiosyncratic"? I know what you mean about Vickers. His idiosyncracies grew stronger as he aged, one of them being an exaggerated and croony _mezza voce,_ and I tend to prefer his earlier recordings. You can hear that tendency to exaggerate in his second recorded Siegmund under Karajan, as compared to his greater simplicity and directness under Leinsdorf. Still, it was a great voice and his artistry could sweep all before it. I wish he had been the Tristan in the performance with Nilsson I saw in 1972. It could have made a mediocre evening into a great one.


Yep, that's the correct word for it - idiosyncratic. Not my native language so I'll make a due note of its correct use.
Just one small example (it's a very very well-known and well-loved performance): Mon coeur s'ouvre à ta voix - Verrett/Vickers
When it comes to Vickers' entry at about 2:42 it sounds so jarring as to destroy the mood completely. Maybe I'm just allergic to him, but I guess it's my loss.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Tsaraslondon said:


> Do you know his early recital of Italian arias, conducted by Serafin and recorded at around the same time as his first Otello? It's a great favourite of mine. If you're interested, there's a short review on my blog. http://tsaraslondon.com/2019/03/27/jon-vickers-italian-opera-arias/


Thanks for the tip. I'm listening to some selections on YouTube right now. Truly, there hasn't been a heroic tenor since who so deserved that designation. In some of these I think he actually overwhelms the material. It's almost frightening.


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

Amen! (I have to add some more) Amen! Amen!


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## wkasimer (Jun 5, 2017)

Woodduck said:


> Suthaus was an excellent Siegmund, without a doubt, and a fine Tristan too. I wish he had recorded both of those roles earlier; recordings from the 1940s seem to show a brighter, less throaty and opaque timbre than we hear on his '50s recordings with Furtwangler.


Not sure about Siegmund, but there are a couple of earlier Tristans available. There's a live 1947 recording with the Berlin Staatskapelle, also conducted by Furtwangler. Unfortunately, it's only Acts 2 and 3. Suthaus is terrific here. He's also marginally better on a 1950 recording conducted by Konwitschny, which was issued by Preiser and (I think) Walhall. The Isolde isn't great, but Frick is fantastic as King Mark.



> I disliked that Furtwangler _Walkure_ the moment I first heard it decades ago. Its singers, admirable artists though they were, were all past their primes...Melchior could still have done both Siegmund and Tristan, but I gather that Furtwangler didn't like him.


I suspect that the combination of Furtwangler's vague conductorial style and Melchior's notorious rhythmic issues would have produced something, er, unique.

Melchior could still sing a pretty passable Siegmund as late as 1960, when he was 70.


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## Dimace (Oct 19, 2018)

Barbebleu said:


> Both have their positives and negatives. *Vickers' questionable German pronounciation* for a start and Jerusalem's boomy tone but you would travel a long way to hear their like today. Vickers was not helped by Böhm's pace. Did he have somewhere urgent he needed to be? But I have to give it to Vickers for his ardency and ringing tone. A fine start to this competition.


Very bad. I almost understood nothing. *I went for my Landsman here, my beloved Siegfried. * He did it very well, giving the wanted celebrating tone to this aria. Jon is also very strong but a little bit deutsch should be help. Thanks for this one.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

wkasimer said:


> Not sure about Siegmund, but there are a couple of earlier Tristans available. There's a live 1947 recording with the Berlin Staatskapelle, also conducted by Furtwangler. Unfortunately, it's only Acts 2 and 3. Suthaus is terrific here. He's also marginally better on a 1950 recording conducted by Konwitschny, which was issued by Preiser and (I think) Walhall. The Isolde isn't great, but Frick is fantastic as King Mark.
> 
> I disliked that Furtwangler _Walkure_ the moment I first heard it decades ago. Its singers, admirable artists though they were, were all past their primes, and for my money Martha Modl never had a prime. With Flagstad too old and Nilsson and Vickers too young, the early 1950s were problematic years for heroic voices. Melchior could still have done both Siegmund and Tristan, but I gather that Furtwangler didn't like him. And what about Set Svanholm? He was still in close to his best voice at that date. It would be interesting to hear that _Walkure_ recording again now. Perhaps I'd be more charitable.


Heh heh. You might want to fix this, since you forgot to indicate that your second paragraph is a quote and not your own opinion. I believe you like the recording more than I do.

I was aware of the Konwitschny _Tristan_ decades ago and believe I heard a bit of it. I've heard some of the live act 3 with Suthaus and found him superior to his later self. Pity the first act of that is missing.


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## wkasimer (Jun 5, 2017)

Woodduck said:


> Heh heh. You might want to fix this, since you forgot to indicate that your second paragraph is a quote and not your own opinion.


Yes, thanks. I wanted to add something and got interrupted. It's fixed now.



> I was aware of the Konwitschny _Tristan_ decades ago and believe I heard a bit of it.


Back when I was in high school and had just discovered Wagner, that Konwitschny Tristan was the only recording that my local public library had on the shelf, so that's how I learned the opera. They also had the "Fritz Schreiber" LP of Siegfried - at the time, I had no idea what that actually was or how lucky I was to hear it.


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## BachIsBest (Feb 17, 2018)

Does anyone know why Vickers didn't record more? His discography is not as extensive as one might expect for a singer of his stature and talent.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Azol said:


> Yep, that's the correct word for it - idiosyncratic. Not my native language so I'll make a due note of its correct use.
> Just one small example (it's a very very well-known and well-loved performance): Mon coeur s'ouvre à ta voix - Verrett/Vickers
> When it comes to Vickers' entry at about 2:42 it sounds so jarring as to destroy the mood completely.


It sounds quite the reverse to me. A wonderfully sweet mezza-voce which perfectly compliments the mood Verrett has created.


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## wkasimer (Jun 5, 2017)

BachIsBest said:


> Does anyone know why Vickers didn't record more? His discography is not as extensive as one might expect for a singer of his stature and talent.


His repertoire was pretty circumscribed.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

wkasimer said:


> His repertoire was pretty circumscribed.


Wisely, I think, but excessively. His voice was built for parts requiring great power and high drama, and would have overwhelmed a lot of lyric repertoire. But his omissions in the dramatic tenor repertoire are regrettable. He would certainly have been the best Tannhauser and Siegfried since Melchior, as well as a fine Lohengrin. He might also have lent stature to _Rienzi,_ which needs great singers to be worth mounting (he might have given Meyerbeer a little help too). But aside from his wonderful Siegmund, all the Wagner we got from him were Parsifal and a few Tristans at the end of his career. He seems to have had extramusical problems with Wagner from some personal religious perspective. I suspect many people, including me, would like to have had a chance to give him a good talking to about that, but he strikes me as someone whose views would not have been influenced very easily.

Outside of Wagner, the handful of roles he took on were mostly excellent for him, but how about Calaf? He and Birgit could have made a glorious noise together. Then there's Richard Strauss - who wrote for tenors as if he hated them - and Korngold; Paul in _Die Tote Stadt_ strikes me as an ideal role, and Korngold's other operas could have been successful with a great dramatic tenor's help. I can also imagine D'Albert's _Tiefland _ reclaiming some of its former popularity with Vickers as Pedro, a wonderful character.

An odd fellow, Vickers, highly particular and seemingly rather puritanical. I guess we're lucky to have what we have.


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## Revitalized Classics (Oct 31, 2018)

BachIsBest said:


> Does anyone know why Vickers didn't record more? His discography is not as extensive as one might expect for a singer of his stature and talent.


Those Italian-language operas he sang but never recorded complete in the studio leave a big gap: _Don Carlos_, _Medea_, _Andrea Chenier_, _Forza del Destino_, _Un Ballo in Maschera_, _Norma_ among others.

I've only recently read about how he fell out with Solti as early as '61 when recording _Aida_ and then never performed with him again...

If that's right, I can't imagine that helped Vickers' recording career.

Vickers might otherwise have at least been in contention for operas Solti recorded from his active repertoire e.g. _Ballo in Maschera_ twice, _Don Carlos_, _Parsifal_ or could, one might imagine, have made a stab at those other Wagnerian operas in the studio e.g. _Siegfried_, _Gotterdammerung_, _Tannhauser_, _Meistersingers_, _Lohengrin_.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Revitalized Classics said:


> Those Italian-language operas he sang but never recorded complete in the studio leave a big gap: _Don Carlos_, _Medea_, _Andrea Chenier_, _Forza del Destino_, _Un Ballo in Maschera_, _Norma_ among others.
> 
> I've only recently read about how he fell out with Solti as early as '61 when recording _Aida_ and then never performed with him again...
> 
> ...


Had Vickers, rather than Rene Kollo, been Solti's Parsifal, Solti's recording of that opera would be close to the top of my list of recommended versions.


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## Revitalized Classics (Oct 31, 2018)

Woodduck said:


> Wisely, I think, but excessively. His voice was built for parts requiring great power and high drama, and would have overwhelmed a lot of lyric repertoire. But his omissions in the dramatic tenor repertoire are regrettable. He would certainly have been the best Tannhauser and Siegfried since Melchior, as well as a fine Lohengrin. He might also have lent stature to _Rienzi,_ which needs great singers to be worth mounting (he might have given Meyerbeer a little help too). But aside from his wonderful Siegmund, all the Wagner we got from him were Parsifal and a few Tristans at the end of his career. He seems to have had extramusical problems with Wagner from some personal religious perspective. I suspect many people, including me, would like to have had a chance to give him a good talking to about that, but he strikes me as someone whose views would not have been influenced very easily.
> 
> *Outside of Wagner, the handful of roles he took on were mostly excellent for him, but how about Calaf? He and Birgit could have made a glorious noise together. * Then there's Richard Strauss - who wrote for tenors as if he hated them - and Korngold; Paul in _Die Tote Stadt_ strikes me as an ideal role, and Korngold's other operas could have been successful with a great dramatic tenor's help. I can also imagine D'Albert's _Tiefland _ reclaiming some of its former popularity with Vickers as Pedro, a wonderful character.
> 
> An odd fellow, Vickers, highly particular and seemingly rather puritanical. I guess we're lucky to have what we have.


I can almost imagine hearing him singing 'Ch'ella mi creda' or 'Or son sei mesi' from _Fanciulla del West_ which is peculiar: with that idiosyncratic voice, one can conjure it almost at will.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Revitalized Classics said:


> I can almost imagine hearing him singing 'Ch'ella mi creda' or 'Or son sei mesi' from _Fanciulla del West_ which is peculiar: with that idiosyncratic voice, one can conjure it almost at will.


Great idea! Does his ghost have an agent we can call?


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Revitalized Classics said:


> I can almost imagine hearing him singing 'Ch'ella mi creda' or 'Or son sei mesi' from _Fanciulla del West_ which is peculiar: with that idiosyncratic voice, one can conjure it almost at will.


Now that we've cast him as Calaf and Dick Johnson, how about Cavaradossi? his "Vittoria! Vittoria!" would bring the house down. He could also beat up Scarpia quite handily.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Woodduck said:


> Wisely, I think, but excessively. His voice was built for parts requiring great power and high drama, and would have overwhelmed a lot of lyric repertoire. But his omissions in the dramatic tenor repertoire are regrettable. He would certainly have been the best Tannhauser and Siegfried since Melchior, as well as a fine Lohengrin. He might also have lent stature to _Rienzi,_ which needs great singers to be worth mounting (he might have given Meyerbeer a little help too). But aside from his wonderful Siegmund, all the Wagner we got from him were Parsifal and a few Tristans at the end of his career. He seems to have had extramusical problems with Wagner from some personal religious perspective. I suspect many people, including me, would like to have had a chance to give him a good talking to about that, but he strikes me as someone whose views would not have been influenced very easily.
> 
> Outside of Wagner, the handful of roles he took on were mostly excellent for him, but how about Calaf? He and Birgit could have made a glorious noise together. Then there's Richard Strauss - who wrote for tenors as if he hated them - and Korngold; Paul in _Die Tote Stadt_ strikes me as an ideal role, and Korngold's other operas could have been successful with a great dramatic tenor's help. I can also imagine D'Albert's _Tiefland _ reclaiming some of its former popularity with Vickers as Pedro, a wonderful character.
> 
> An odd fellow, Vickers, highly particular and seemingly rather puritanical. I guess we're lucky to have what we have.


I'm not sure Calaf would have been a good fit. When Callas asked him to sing Pollione to her Norma in Paris in 1964, he declined, saying he couldn't do the exposed top C in his aria. When he eventually did sing the role (with Caballé in Orange) he didn't attempt the note. I also note that he ducks Enée's top C in the live recording of *Les Troyens* I have with him, though he does sing it in the studio.


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## Revitalized Classics (Oct 31, 2018)

Tsaraslondon said:


> I'm not sure Calaf would have been a good fit. *When Callas asked him to sing Pollione to her Norma in Paris in 1964, he declined, saying he couldn't do the exposed top C in his aria*. When he eventually did sing the role (with Caballé in Orange) he didn't attempt the note. I also note that he ducks Enée's top C in the live recording of *Les Troyens* I have with him, though he does sing it in the studio.


I didn't know there was even the hope of them both appearing in _Norma_ - that's so frustrating.

Sometimes hearing about the casts that might-have-been is just torture: maybe there's a parallel universe where the Callas/Bjorling _Pirata_, Callas/Corelli _Medea_, the recording of Callas/Pavarotti in _Traviata_ and now the possible Callas/Vickers _Norma_ you mention all came to pass


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Tsaraslondon said:


> I'm not sure Calaf would have been a good fit. When Callas asked him to sing Pollione to her Norma in Paris in 1964, he declined, saying he couldn't do the exposed top C in his aria. When he eventually did sing the role (with Caballé in Orange) he didn't attempt the note. I also note that he ducks Enée's top C in the live recording of *Les Troyens* I have with him, though he does sing it in the studio.


Maybe the high C kept him away from other roles too.


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## MAS (Apr 15, 2015)

Revitalized Classics said:


> I didn't know there was even the hope of them both appearing in _Norma_ - that's so frustrating.
> 
> Sometimes hearing about the casts that might-have-been is just torture: maybe there's a parallel universe where the Callas/Bjorling _Pirata_, Callas/Corelli _Medea_, the recording of Callas/Pavarotti in _Traviata_ and now the possible Callas/Vickers _Norma_ you mention all came to pass


*Il Pirata* with Björling? I cannot imagine it at all! But _any_ studio *Traviata* with Callas, though, commands attention, even if too late. Thank God we have the 1953 Cetra.


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## Revitalized Classics (Oct 31, 2018)

MAS said:


> *Il Pirata* with Björling? I cannot imagine it at all! But _any_ studio *Traviata* with Callas, though, commands attention, even if too late. Thank God we have the 1953 Cetra.


I know - I was surprised too. I heard a recording of an interview with Bjorling from '58 and the interviewer just drops in that Bjorling had been offered the Il Pirata concert with Callas:




Pirata reference @2mins

That interview really confirms what we've been discussing in this thread: Vickers made only a few recordings when you think that Bjorling was offered/considering recording in just a few years Faust, Ballo in Maschera, Romeo et Juliet and Otello and then later Lohengrin and Meistersinger.


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