# Richard Strauss



## Clouds Weep Snowflakes (Feb 24, 2019)

I'm surprised I underrated him; just a few seconds into his vocal music made me a fan; how popular is he? Did he have any connection to the Nazis that worked during his lifetime? And, most importantly, what would you recommend?


----------



## DaveM (Jun 29, 2015)

Others will justifiably recommend many other works, but this lesser known work has always been special for me:


----------



## flamencosketches (Jan 4, 2019)

Clouds Weep Snowflakes said:


> I'm surprised I underrated him; just a few seconds into his vocal music made me a fan; how popular is he? Did he have any connection to the Nazis that worked during his lifetime? And, most importantly, what would you recommend?


That's how I felt too. His vocal music really won me over. He was one of the greatest operatists of the 20th century, and a worthy successor to Wagner.

Do yourself a favor and listen to this phenomenal recording of his great, expressionistic opera, Elektra:











Next time you have 2 hours to kill 

His so called Four Last Songs are also very good:






As far as I can tell, they're all about death.


----------



## Clouds Weep Snowflakes (Feb 24, 2019)

flamencosketches said:


> That's how I felt too. His vocal music really won me over. He was one of the greatest operatists of the 20th century, and a worthy successor to Wagner.
> 
> Do yourself a favor and listen to this phenomenal recording of his great, expressionistic opera, Elektra:
> 
> ...


Could you name CDs I should get aside of these ones?


----------



## flamencosketches (Jan 4, 2019)

Honestly, those are the only Strauss CDs I have, but I'm thinking of pulling the trigger on this big box set:

https://www.amazon.com/R-Strauss-Complete-Orchestral-Works/dp/B07LD23LTS

9 discs of Strauss for 16 bucks. From a renowned composer of Strauss' works, from an orchestra that Strauss himself conducted. This looks like a winner in every way.

Just in case you're interested, here are Amazon links to CDs for the youtube videos I linked:

https://www.amazon.com/Strauss-Four-Last-Songs-Orchestral/dp/B0000040VV/ (I believe this one is OOP, but available for pretty cheap)

https://www.amazon.com/Strauss-Elektra-Richard/dp/B000KLRUJS/ (a reissue in great quality and a good price).

I'm still very very new to Strauss myself. He has written a large handful of great, renowned operas. He's in the upper echelon of operatic composers from all accounts. And of course he is considered a master of the genre of tone poetry.


----------



## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

^^^^That Kempe box is THE set to have. It's great.


----------



## flamencosketches (Jan 4, 2019)

Itullian said:


> ^^^^That Kempe box is THE set to have. It's great.


Well, you don't need to tell me twice. Tomorrow is payday...


----------



## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

Kempe is the reason I finally like Strauss.


----------



## Rogerx (Apr 27, 2018)

https://www.talkclassical.com/12454-richard-strauss.html?highlight=richard+strauss

https://www.talkclassical.com/12454-richard-strauss.html?highlight=richard+strauss

Use the advance search like Granate nos so long ago suggested you find loads.


----------



## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

Reiner is tops for Richard Strauss...Strauss was one of his specialties. He recorded all of the big tone poems, most multiple times...these are benchmark performances, some remarkable orchestra playing from Chicago, ViennaPO, RCA VictorSO [MetOpera +NY Freelancers], PittsburghSO....he also recorded Salome and Elektra, with the Met, plus a remarkable excerpt disc of these works with Chicago... with Inge Borkh in the title roles...the music veritably drips with the savage blood-lust and blood -vengeance under Reiner's baton...two of his tone poem recordings, Also Sprach Zarathustra [1962] and Don Juan [1960] are amongst the greatest recordings of ANY repertoire I've ever heard...Don Juan, iirc, was recorded on a single take!! straight thru, in the can!! same with his VPO "Till Eulenspiegel" [1956]..


----------



## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

flamencosketches said:


> Well, you don't need to tell me twice. Tomorrow is payday...


the Kempe Strauss is ok, but for me, it sounds pallid, pedestrian, like pale white bread next to the real heavy hitters - Reiner, Solti, Toscanini, Mehta [yes, Mehta, superb Strauss conductor.]..


----------



## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

I've never been able to pin it down exactly, but for some reason Strauss' orchestral music leaves me cold - it's brilliantly scored, loud, exciting, beautiful - and somehow quite shallow. Can't explain it. It's also not all that much fun to play - very difficult and for what? On the other hand, his operas are incredible - Elektra and Salome are awesome. The lesser known ones are quite enjoyable, too. Capriccio! Wonderful.

The Kempe recordings are excellent, but you can get much better sound and there are a lot of recordings that are well worth the price. Kempe just has so much music that hardly anyones bothers with. They go for the big and famous tone poems. The Reiner and Solti recordings are fine. Lorin Maazel made three disks for RCA in Munich are terrific. And the Previn set on Telarc in Vienna was widely praised when it came out.


----------



## MatthewWeflen (Jan 24, 2019)

I love Strauss, and my go to is this box set:







https://www.amazon.com/Strauss-11-Blu-ray-Audio-Limited/dp/B00JEPZVYM/

I never tire of Metamorphosen, and can't think of a better piece to accompany the last 100 years of world history. A piece that has grown in my estimation with each listen is Eine Alpensinfonie. Tod und Varklarung also consistently pleases me. But basically there is nothing of his that I am just "meh" on. I enjoy it all to varying degrees.


----------



## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)




----------



## janxharris (May 24, 2010)

Clouds Weep Snowflakes said:


> I'm surprised I underrated him; just a few seconds into his vocal music made me a fan; how popular is he? Did he have any connection to the Nazis that worked during his lifetime? And, most importantly, what would you recommend?


Strauss never became a member of the Nazi party - though he did cooperate in view of his standing as a composer.

I love this performance of a Also Sprach Zarathustra:


----------



## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Strauss

This should fill in some background.


----------



## CnC Bartok (Jun 5, 2017)

Kempe is great in Strauss, and that EMI box is probably a must. However, there's a smaller cheap box of Fritz Reiner doing the major orchestral works, worth seeking out too!

Strauss is, for me, a bit of a blank spot. I like and respect his music, but I cannot fall in love with it, whatever I am doing wrong, please someone help!! I struggle to find the tunefulness others hear in his music, and also feel so much of it seems formless. I think he's at his best when he's being wistful, Metamorphosen, Tod und Verklarung, and the weird work of his I like, the Sinfonia domestica. Beyond Salome, though, the operas are a bit of a no-go area for my tastes (and I apologise profusely, but that includes Rosenkavalier) I do like the Four Last Songs, but they have always failed to move me as deeply as they do others, and especially as deeply as so many of Mahler's songs do.


----------



## flamencosketches (Jan 4, 2019)

No love for Elektra, Bartok?

I really like Reiner, he is a real old school conductor in his approach, and it shows in his music. And I'm sure the huge Chicago Symphony brass section of his time would be well suited to Strauss' music. I will have to look it up. As I alluded to previously, though, none of his purely orchestral music has really caught me yet, as amazing as his operas are.


----------



## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

There are many highly recommendable recordings of Strauss's orchestral pieces - including those by Reiner, Kempe and Karajan - and for some of the later works (the Four Last Songs, Metamorphosen, Oboe Concerto etc) there are numerous particular recommendations. I know the options available for the operas less well but there are definitely many fine recordings. 

I have mixed feelings about his music. I like the late works and also the few operas that I know but I do have some sympathy with CnC Bartok's views: really fine music that somehow doesn't engage me as much as I would expect from works of their obvious stature. Still, the world would be a much poorer place if he hadn't composed.


----------



## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

CnC Bartok said:


> I struggle to find the tunefulness others hear in his music, and also feel so much of it seems formless.


I've heard people say this before, my feeling is that in some of the operas, there are so many melodies, teeming with melodies, and the form is so elusive, that it's possible to miss them. That's the case in Arabella I think and maybe Frau Ohne Schatten.

(Puccini, who reminds me a bit of Strauss, has a similar weakness maybe, in Fanciulla.)

As far as form in general goes, there is one but it's literary (like Schumann maybe) -- there are programmes to give form to The Domestic Symphony, Alpine Symphony, the tone poems etc.


----------



## janxharris (May 24, 2010)

Strauss:

_New ideas must search for new forms - this basic principle of Liszt's symphonic works, in which the poetic idea was really the formative element, became henceforward the guiding principle for my own symphonic work._


----------



## Meyerbeer Smith (Mar 25, 2016)

janxharris said:


> Strauss never became a member of the Nazi party - though he did cooperate in view of his standing as a composer.


And in view of his Jewish daughter-in-law and grandchildren.


----------



## CnC Bartok (Jun 5, 2017)

I am glad - relieved almost! - that I'm not the only one who "has issues" with Strauss! And he really is the sort of composer I ought to like more than I do. Interesting that "form" comes up here too, and I do recognise there is some in his music, and I emphatically have no problem with, or aversion to, the "Symphonic poem". But why then do I prefer Sibelius' or Liszt's, or even Dvorak's, essays in the genre? Mmmmm.


----------



## janxharris (May 24, 2010)

CnC Bartok said:


> I am glad - relieved almost! - that I'm not the only one who "has issues" with Strauss! And he really is the sort of composer I ought to like more than I do. Interesting that "form" comes up here too, and I do recognise there is some in his music, and I emphatically have no problem with, or aversion to, the "Symphonic poem". But why then do I prefer Sibelius' or Liszt's, or even Dvorak's, essays in the genre? Mmmmm.


I never liked Zarathustra till I heard the performance I posted on page 1. I think it's a piece that can easily be overdone and lose the subtleties - of which there are many.


----------



## MarkW (Feb 16, 2015)

His work is not necessarily formulaic, but he has an extraordinarily distinctive voice that's almost impossible to mistake for anyone else. He himself said, with great self-awareness, "I may not be a First Class composer, but I'm a First Rate Second Class composer." He has a lot stuff worth listening to -- the tone poems, four or five operas, the horn concerti, Four Last Songs -- but after you've known them a while, a little goes a long way.


----------



## Clouds Weep Snowflakes (Feb 24, 2019)

Would it be precise to call Strauss one of the most important composers of the early 20th century, or I'm getting overcarried?


----------



## Ras (Oct 6, 2017)

*Vier Letzte Lieder +++ Metamorphosen*



Clouds Weep Snowflakes said:


> And, most importantly, what would you recommend?


*My favorite works by Richard Strauss are late works: "4 Last Songs" + "Metamorphoses for 23 solo strings".*

*This is my favorite recording of the 4 Last Songs* (as a bonus it includes the orchestral work "Ein Heldenleben": - performed by *Netrebko and Barenboim*:









*I also like Renee Fleming's first recording on RCA of the 4 Last Songs* - later she recorded these Strauss songs for Decca as well









*Karajan recorded the "Metamorphoses" for DG* - it's my favorite recording of that work and the cd also includes the orchestral piece "Tod und Verklärung" and the 4 Last Songs sung by G. Janowitz - I'm don't like the Janowitz much, but some people like that recording and this may be the easiest and cheapest way to get some of your first Richard Strauss on CD:









Other composers with similar works:
*You may also like Samuel Barber's "Adagio for Strings" and Rachmaninov's 2nd piano concerto and his "Vocalise".*

Barber etc.:








Rachmaninov: Piano concertos no. 1 and 2:


----------



## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

Clouds Weep Snowflakes said:


> Would it be precise to call Strauss one of the most important composers of the early 20th century, or I'm getting overcarried?


It depends on how many you include in that list of most important ... but, unless it is a small list, yes he probably belongs. Certainly (by which I mean IMO!) Stravinsky, Bartok, Ravel, Prokofiev, Schoenberg and Berg belong on that list before Strauss and, if you want to think of Mahler, Sibelius, Debussy and Nielsen as being of the 20th century, they belong, too.


----------



## Ras (Oct 6, 2017)

If you get into Richard Strauss's "4 last songs" you may also like Mahler's "Kindertotenlieder" and Rachmaninov's song with piano accompaniment "Vocalise".

Here are 13 different recordings (the original + 12 arrangements/transriptions) of Rachmaninov's "Vocalise" on one CD:









Mahler : Kindertotenlieder etc. :


----------



## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

Clouds Weep Snowflakes said:


> Would it be precise to call Strauss one of the most important composers of the early 20th century, or I'm getting overcarried?


I think that would be a reasonably accurate assessment although his musical heart lay in the nineteenth century. Enthusiasts opinion, like all opinions, is subjective as is mine. Enjoy the music, ignore the hyperbole!:lol:


----------



## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

Clouds Weep Snowflakes said:


> Would it be precise to call Strauss one of the most important composers of the early 20th century, or I'm getting overcarried?


Yes, probably...his works enjoy huge popularity on orchestral programming...big showpieces that display the orchestra's virtuosity...there's a lot of substance too...
I think if Strauss were contemporary, he would have gone into movie scoring, film soundtracks...John Williams owes much to Strauss in his various movie scores.


----------



## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Sometimes when I'm at Rosenkavelier I've thought to myself that this is the greatest opera ever written -- it has philosophy which is understandable, it has sympathetic and funny characters, it has some nice tunes, it shows off the singers well, in its equilibrium of comedy and tragedy it's at least as good as Figaro. I don't know about "important composers", but Rosenkavelier is a fabulous thing to see if the production and musicians are up for it. 

Elektra too is worthwhile, it's a bit one sided, a bit brutal, but as an exercise in a certain style, it's exceptional.

And there's a huge amount of positive things to say about Ariadne and possibly Cappriccio too.

It would be interesting, in those days when this place was full of polls, to see if there was one comparing Strauss and other composers of the same ilk -- Puccini, Rachmaninov, Britten.


----------



## flamencosketches (Jan 4, 2019)

How does Rachmaninov end up grouped alongside Strauss,


----------



## Ras (Oct 6, 2017)

flamencosketches said:


> How does Rachmaninov end up grouped alongside Strauss,


They were contemporaries and were both late Romantic composers with a rather conservative style compared to what else was happening in their time. (R. Strauss born 1864, Rach. born 1873). I hear something similar in Jean Sibelius (or the few works of his that I have heard).


----------



## CnC Bartok (Jun 5, 2017)

If we're comparing opera composers of the same era, we ought to throw Hindemith, and especially Janáček, into the mix....


----------



## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

CnC Bartok said:


> If we're comparing opera composers of the same era, we ought to throw Hindemith, and especially Janáček, into the mix....


Not comparing opera composers, comparing romantic throwbacks.


----------



## larold (Jul 20, 2017)

_I'm surprised I underrated him; just a few seconds into his vocal music made me a fan; how popular is he? Did he have any connection to the Nazis that worked during his lifetime? And, most importantly, what would you recommend? _

Strauss is one of the greatest of all composers (No. 12 in my survey) and the last great romantic. He was German, a resident of Munich where the Nazis ascended, and sided with his nation in the war. He wrote *Metamorphosen *for 16 strings, a morose piece full of longing and dreary regret, after Dresden was firebombed and burned to ashes during the war. But he was more a musician, egotist, philosopher and opportunist than a Nazi.

Strauss wrote famous tone or orchestral poems, a couple symphonies (domestic and alpine) that are long orchestral poems, chamber music (especially for winds), operas and songs among other things. I'd recommend anyone investigating him hear all these pieces:

*Also Sprach Zarathustra*, probably his most famous work
*Ein Heldenleben*
*Til Eulenspiegel's Merry Pranks*
*Concerto for Horn and Orchestra Nos. 1 and 2*
His 20-minute orchestral *suite from the opera Der Rosenkavalier*
*Alpine Symphony*

These are all big, romantic works, typically quite loud and fiery with softer, more genial sections interspersed. They won't tell you everything there is to know about Strauss but they'll tell you if you like him. If so go on and try some of these:

*Four Last Songs*, one of the most sublime song cycles ever written
*Der Rosenkavalier *the opera
*Sonatina AV 143* also called the Happy Workshop, a40-minute piece for woodwinds
*Incidental music to the play "The Bourgeois Gentleman"*

If you've gone this far you have a good idea if you like him and, if so, which of his music you like best. I once enjoyed all his big romantic works but today only listen to Also Sprach Zarathustra. I far more enjoy his 4 Last Songs and his Mozartean woodwind music that includes the *Duet-Concertino for Clarinet and Bassoon*, a 20-minute interplay between the two solo instruments backed by an orchestra. It's more like two operas voices than a concerto.

Unless you are an opera afficianado or into voices I don't think it matters a lot whose performances you listen to. Strauss is among a handful of composers whose music comes off well played almost any way.

I should add Strauss recorded a lot of his own music that can be located if that is of interest. Since he died 1949, even with today's remastering technology, his recordings would charitably be called historic.


----------



## CnC Bartok (Jun 5, 2017)

Mandryka said:


> Not comparing opera composers, comparing romantic throwbacks.


Not the first thing that springs to mind when Britten gets a mention.....


----------



## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

I'm beginning to think that any underrating or comparison to other composers is a failure which reflects the society which created us.


----------



## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

CnC Bartok said:


> Not the first thing that springs to mind when Britten gets a mention.....


I was going to mention Shostakovich too actually.


----------



## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

millionrainbows said:


> I'm beginning to think that any underrating or comparison to other composers is a failure which reflects the society which created us.


I thought we created the society.


----------



## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

larold said:


> But he was [a] . . . philosopher . . .


Can you say a bit more about this?


----------



## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

larold said:


> Strauss is one of the greatest of all composers (No. 12 in my survey)


That settles the matter then.


----------



## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

flamencosketches said:


> How does Rachmaninov end up grouped alongside Strauss,


Not in my book....I don't know if Strauss is quite up with Stravinsky, Shostakovich, Bartok, but he's pretty close....Rach'm'ff nowhere near that level...


----------



## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

Ras said:


> They were contemporaries and were both late Romantic composers with a rather conservative style compared to what else was happening in their time. (R. Strauss born 1864, Rach. born 1873). I hear something similar in Jean Sibelius (or the few works of his that I have heard).


I don't agree that Strauss was all that conservative in style...with Elektra and Salome, he certainly gets into extreme dissonance and bi-tonality....maybe he mellowed a little after that, but the statement was made. Also, orchestration-wise, he pushed the envelope pretty far...he makes great demands on the orchestra...the first page and a half or so of "Don Juan" will appear on most every violin audition for orchestra position....[so will Haffner Symphony, and Leonore #3 ]


----------



## Clouds Weep Snowflakes (Feb 24, 2019)

Thanks for the comments guys/girls! I'm happy I'm not the only one to like this composer, I'll get what I can in the next coming weeks!


----------



## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

Heck148 said:


> I don't agree that Strauss was all that conservative in style...with Elektra and Salome, he certainly gets into extreme dissonance and bi-tonality....maybe he mellowed a little after that, but the statement was made. Also, orchestration-wise, he pushed the envelope pretty far...he makes great demands on the orchestra...the first page and a half or so of "Don Juan" will appear on most every violin audition for orchestra position....[so will Haffner Symphony, and Leonore #3 ]


I haven't studied Strauss in depth, but it bothered me as a young man when my music history textbook said he started out radical but ended up a hopeless reactionary. I'm not sure that's the case so much as there came a point where he stopped feeling the need to continually write shock pieces. Penderecki seemed to do the same thing. I think there was a time when Stauss did crank out pieces more for money than inspiration (where his wife would say, "Why are you sitting around? Compose!"), but Metamorphosen and the Four Last Songs, maybe even the horn concerto (I haven't spent a lot of time with that one) show he still had it in him.

Am I getting that right?


----------



## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

larold said:


> Strauss is one of the greatest of all composers


I can accept that if there are fifteen or twenty composers in that group.



> I once enjoyed all his big romantic works but today only listen to Also Sprach Zarathustra. I far more enjoy his 4 Last Songs


Ditto, except that _Also Sprach_ has also bitten the dust for me. The tone poems are tasty, but rather like making a meal of dessert. The _4 Last Songs, _on the other hand, are deeply felt and seem impervious to time. I also enjoy many of his other songs, as well as the oboe and horn concertos.

Of the operas, _Die Frau Ohne Schatten_ is the most interesting to me, an allegorical fairy tale with a rich, magical score.


----------



## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

Woodduck said:


> I can accept that if there are fifteen or twenty composers in that group.
> 
> Ditto, except that _Also Sprach_ has also bitten the dust for me. The tone poems are tasty, but rather like making a meal of dessert. The _4 Last Songs, _on the other hand, are deeply felt and seem impervious to time. I also enjoy many of his other songs, as well as the oboe and horn concertos.
> 
> Of the operas, _Die Frau Ohne Schatten_ is the most interesting to me, an allegorical fairy tale with a rich, magical core.


I can add Elektra, Rosenkavalier, Ariadne and Capriccio to this list. His lieder are particularly rewarding to me.


----------



## Brahmsianhorn (Feb 17, 2017)

My two favorite Strauss recordings are the Schwarzkopf/Szell Four Last Songs and Mengelberg’s 1928 NYPO Ein Heldenleben, which actually sounds quite good for its age.

Also, not as a great a work, but Sinfonia Domestica in Furtwängler’s wartime performance is searingly intense.


----------



## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Strauss was one of the many German musicians caught in the conundrum of art and Nazi Germany. This article might be helpful:

http://www.bbc.com/culture/story/20140610-richard-strauss-a-reluctant-nazi


----------



## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Mandryka said:


> Sometimes when I'm at Rosenkavelier I've thought to myself that this is the greatest opera ever written -- it has philosophy which is understandable, it has sympathetic and funny characters, it has some nice tunes, it shows off the singers well, *in its equilibrium of comedy and tragedy it's at least as good as Figaro.* I don't know about "important composers", but Rosenkavelier is a fabulous thing to see if the production and musicians are up for it.
> 
> Elektra too is worthwhile, it's a bit one sided, a bit brutal, but as an exercise in a certain style, it's exceptional.
> 
> ...


No it's not!....


----------



## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

DavidA said:


> No it's not!....


Yes it is!....xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx


----------



## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Barbebleu said:


> Yes it is!....xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx


Sorry. Completely wrong there! Completely lacks the humanity of Mozart's work.


----------



## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

No it doesn't. xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx


----------



## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

I'm with DavidA on this. I feel that no Strauss opera compares favourably or equally with Mozart's.


----------



## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Enthusiast said:


> I'm with DavidA on this. I feel that no Strauss opera compares favourably or equally with Mozart's.


What! Not even Rosencav? David's wrong to say it lack's Mozart's humanity -- nothing more human than the Marschallin's reconciliation with her own ageing, with the ineluctable passage of time.

What's more this has an element of tragedy to it, something which doesn't exist in Figaro.


----------



## flamencosketches (Jan 4, 2019)

Well, as I disclaim any time these kind of discussions come up, I am not an opera guy. But after Mozart, the operatic composer I have connected with the most is Strauss. He is a master of dramatic storytelling in music. Lacks the "humanity" of Mozart? Maybe so. I couldn't tell you. But I would say that more than any other composer he has written several operas that compare favorably with Mozart's.

Well, I'm done speaking on something I know nothing about. Just surprising to see Strauss' mastery of the operatic form denied so definitively when his operas made such an impression on me. (Additional disclaimer: I have only heard Elektra in full, bits of Salome, and most of Rosenkavalier. All three are quite great, and very different from one another).


----------



## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

Enthusiast said:


> I'm with DavidA on this. I feel that no Strauss opera compares favourably or equally with Mozart's.


That's fine by me. I disagree. There's a hundred years of music making separating them so it's a bit of a pointless exercise to come on a Richard Strauss thread and postulate how great Mozart was in comparison. My Octavian is better than your Cherubino! Really?


----------



## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

flamencosketches said:


> Well, as I disclaim any time these kind of discussions come up, I am not an opera guy. But after Mozart, the operatic composer I have connected with the most is Strauss. He is a master of dramatic storytelling in music. Lacks the "humanity" of Mozart? Maybe so. I couldn't tell you. But I would say that more than any other composer he has written several operas that compare favorably with Mozart's.
> 
> Well, I'm done speaking on something I know nothing about. Just surprising to see Strauss' mastery of the operatic form denied so definitively when his operas made such an impression on me. (Additional disclaimer: I have only heard Elektra in full, bits of Salome, and most of Rosenkavalier. All three are quite great, and very different from one another).


Mozart took me a lot of time to appreciate, but I can assure you that when you get the knack of listening to them, the operas he wrote with Da Ponte are very special indeed. (Just like the operas Strauss wrote with Hofmannsthal are special)


----------



## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Mandryka said:


> What! Not even Rosencav? David's wrong to say it lack's Mozart's humanity -- nothing more human than the Marschallin's reconciliation with her own ageing, with the ineluctable passage of time.
> 
> What's more this has an element of tragedy to it, *something which doesn't exist in Figaro*.


You obviously miss the Countess' longings for her young love


----------



## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

Mandryka said:


> What! Not even Rosencav? David's wrong to say it lack's Mozart's humanity -- nothing more human than the Marschallin's reconciliation with her own ageing, with the ineluctable passage of time.
> 
> What's more this has an element of tragedy to it, something which doesn't exist in Figaro.


Tragicomedy is a mongrel breed!


----------



## flamencosketches (Jan 4, 2019)

Mandryka said:


> Mozart took me a lot of time to appreciate, but I can assure you that when you get the knack of listening to them, the operas he wrote with Da Ponte are very special indeed. (Just like the operas Strauss wrote with Hofmannsthal are special)


Maybe I've phrased this post wrong, but I do love what I've heard of Mozart's operas (Zauberflöte, Don G., most of Figaro) and he ranks as number one of all time for me as far as opera goes. It's just that Strauss ranks as a not too distant second for me. This is coming from a guy who has heard maybe half a dozen operas in my life so take it with a grain of salt. But I do appreciate both Mozart and Strauss.


----------



## Agamemnon (May 1, 2017)

Although Richard Strauss was very successful (he actually made quite a fortune as a composer), he was modest about his talents: "I may not be a first-rate composer, but I am a first-class second-rate composer.". I always put Strauss in the same place as Mahler as they both represent late German romanticism and both their music is decadent, expressionist and halfway modernist. Mahler may be the first-rate composer but I've always enjoyed Strauss more, probably because of my bad taste: Strauss' music has often been called kitsch and I'm afraid I like the kitsch of Strauss. On a positive side Strauss has also been called the prophet of postmodernism because of the pastiche-like quality of his work. Anyway, I love his operas, especially Elektra, from which I even took my pseudonym Agamemnon...


----------



## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

flamencosketches said:


> Mozart , , , ranks as number one of all time for me as far as opera goes. .


WHAT!!!!!!? You mean better than Monteverdi!!!!!!!! Never.


----------



## flamencosketches (Jan 4, 2019)

Mandryka said:


> WHAT!!!!!!? You mean better than Monteverdi!!!!!!!! Never.


I'm sorry, but you have edited the disclaimer out of my post :lol: Monteverdi I've heard many call the Shakespeare of music and the greatest operatist of all time. I've never heard his operas; I wouldn't know. I do love his Virgin Mary vespers though.

Can we agree Mozart is top 5-ish, at least?


----------



## Pat Fairlea (Dec 9, 2015)

To get back to Richard Strauss, I'm by no means attracted by all of his music.
But his Four Last Songs are absolutely wonderful.


----------



## pjang23 (Oct 8, 2009)

Highly recommend the orchestral lieder with Elizabeth Schwarzkopf and George Szell. Particularly this gem:

Wiegenlied, op. 41 no. 1





But also these gems:

Zueignung, op. 10 no. 1





Morgen!, op. 27 no. 4





Also this one:

Allerseelen, op. 10 no. 8


----------

