# Composers who went "a bridge too far"



## christomacin (Oct 21, 2017)

By "a bridge too far" I mean a composer somewhat spoiling things with an ill-advised sequel work or a less than spectacular completion of a series of works. For example, some have argued that Vaughan Williams 8th was better than his 9th, or that Carl Nielsen's 5th should have been his last symphony, not the enigmatic 6th. Personally, I don't mind those works so much. Instead, I will go with the sequel to Symphonie Fantastique by Hector Berlioz: "Lelio, or the Return to Life": Finding out Lelio is the name of the protagonist from Symphonie Fantastique is probably more 511 than most of us needed. It's also an unwieldy beast with a chorus, soloists, and narrator. 




The Tempest Overture that opens the work is not bad, though. Unfortunately, the unpopularity of Lelio means this overture is hardly ever performed in concert or included in recordings of his overtures,


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

From my perspective, Grieg composed way too many lyric pieces for piano.


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## christomacin (Oct 21, 2017)

Grieg wrote 7 books of Lyric Pieces. Is there any book in particular at which you think he should have stopped? I would also add Stanford's 7th Symphony as a poor final chapter to his symphonic cycle, which should have ended with the majestic 6th Symphony.

This is a pretty good symphony...




Should have quit while he was ahead, though...


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## bharbeke (Mar 4, 2013)

I see 10 books of Lyric Pieces by Grieg (Ops. 12, 38, 43, 47, 54, 57, 62, 65, 68, and 71). I have heard five of those, one of those being the last group. He wrote no more lyric pieces than Bach did fugues, and I don't see many people arguing for less of those!


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## MarkW (Feb 16, 2015)

I'm still waiting for someone to compose a Tacoma Narrows Concerto (which breaks down completely about halfway through).


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## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

Grechaninov should have quit symphonies after the first two. They went quickly downhill after that. Actually, several composers wrote final symphonies that somehow don't live up to the standards they set themselves: Nielsen, Shostakovich, Alfven, Raff just to name a few.


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

christomacin said:


> Grieg wrote 7 books of Lyric Pieces. Is there any book in particular at which you think he should have stopped?


Yes, Book 1..............


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Bulldog said:


> From my perspective, Grieg composed way too many lyric pieces for piano.


It does mean we can chose the ones we like as Gilels did


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Max Bruch wrote the Violin Concerto no 1 and not anything else of note save the Scottish Fantasy. The other concertos are unmemorable.


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

bharbeke said:


> I see 10 books of Lyric Pieces by Grieg (Ops. 12, 38, 43, 47, 54, 57, 62, 65, 68, and 71). I have heard five of those, one of those being the last group. He wrote no more lyric pieces than Bach did fugues, and I don't see many people arguing for less of those!


To me, comparing Bach fugues to Grieg lyric pieces is like comparing filet mignon to stew meat.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Ippolitov-Ivanov wrote a second suite of _Caucasian Sketches_. If you didn't know that, there's a reason.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

mbhaub said:


> Grechaninov should have quit symphonies after the first two. They went quickly downhill after that. Actually, several composers wrote final symphonies that somehow don't live up to the standards they set themselves: Nielsen, Shostakovich, Alfven, Raff just to name a few.


I'm sure the inclusion of Shostakovich in your list was accidental, the 15th being a most excellent symphony.


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## TurnaboutVox (Sep 22, 2013)

Bulldog said:


> To me, comparing Bach fugues to Grieg lyric pieces is like comparing filet mignon to stew meat.


Maybe, but sometimes a good hearty stew hits the spot exactly!

My own contribution from the world of chamber music - I think Hindemith had little need to write his 6th, and especially 7th string quartets. They pale into insignificance before the first five.


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## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

Definitely with the OP with _Lélio, ou Le retour à la vie_ - I've always thought of it as somewhat odd and lopsided. Although I was aware that it was the follow-up to _SF_ I feel it has more in common with _Tristia_ if anything.


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## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

KenOC said:


> I'm sure the inclusion of Shostakovich in your list was accidental, the 15th being a most excellent symphony.


Not an error at all. I've tried for 50 years and I can't get a handle on it. I like them all, save 2 & 3, and maybe 7, but somehow 15 just doesn't register - The Lone Ranger? What's that about? The whole thing just seems weak. A lot of people like it, but it eludes me why.


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## Larkenfield (Jun 5, 2017)

Rather than the metaphor of “a bridge too far, “ I would say that some of the composers and works mentioned by the OP may have traveled “the road less taken.” They took a risk whether others considered them successful or not in certain works and were compelled to write what they did, such as Nielsen’s 6th, which I find highly enigmatic but not poor and he may have intended that. Some listeners have been scratching their heads at him ever since and maybe that’s a good thing not to expect something similar to what had been done before. I believe he gave the same care and attention to that curveball of a symphony as much as he did to the others. People have been guessing ever since as to its meaning and that can be an impetus to explore all his symphonies in greater detail.


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## CnC Bartok (Jun 5, 2017)

Neither Nielsen's Sixth nor Vaughan Williams' Ninth are inferior pieces in any was imaginable......

Sibelius probably went a bridge too far, and realised it, hence the mysterious fate of No.8!?


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

mbhaub said:


> Not an error at all. I've tried for 50 years and I can't get a handle on it. I like them all, save 2 & 3, and maybe 7, but somehow 15 just doesn't register - The Lone Ranger? What's that about? The whole thing just seems weak. A lot of people like it, but it eludes me why.


Yes, it's an elusive symphony!

BTW, re William Tell: Shostakovich was asked why he included the theme. He said he didn't know, "…but I couldn't _not _include it."


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## christomacin (Oct 21, 2017)

Yes, you're right, there are 10 books of Lyric Pieces.


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## christomacin (Oct 21, 2017)

Robert Pickett said:


> Neither Nielsen's Sixth nor Vaughan Williams' Ninth are inferior pieces in any was imaginable......
> 
> Sibelius probably went a bridge too far, and realised it, hence the mysterious fate of No.8!?


I agree, especially with the Nielsen work, which showed he was still growing as a composer and moving in interesting directions. I don't really have a problem with the VW 9th, either. As for Sibelius' 8th, the truth is we will never know exactly why he destroyed it, or if he ever even finished it. My only beef with Sibelius is that he didn't write ANYTHING for the rest of his life. I could have lived without an 8th if it meant he had written some string quartets, or a Violin Concerto No. 2, or a Requiem, for instance. However, Arnold Bax in my opinion should have halted his symphonic cycle at No. 4, or No. 5 at the latest (he went on to write seven). He wrote too much of everything in his later years, though, not just symphonies.


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

mbhaub said:


> Not an error at all. I've tried for 50 years and I can't get a handle on it. I like them all, save 2 & 3, and maybe 7, but somehow 15 just doesn't register - The Lone Ranger? What's that about? The whole thing just seems weak. A lot of people like it, but it eludes me why.


I'm with Ken on this one. The 15th is wonderful!

The overuse of anapestic rhythms, a condition know as _anapestilentia_, is a notable footprint (heh heh) of Shostakovich's style. I think he is having a little self-deprecating fun with it in the first movement. ("Daddy, why does everything you write sound like that Rossini overture?")


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Robert Pickett said:


> Neither Nielsen's Sixth nor Vaughan Williams' Ninth are inferior pieces in any was imaginable......
> 
> Sibelius probably went a bridge too far, and realised it, hence the mysterious fate of No.8!?


Nielsen's 6th is peculiar and I don't know what to make of it - it strikes me as deliberately enigmatic, not a quality that draws me in - but I don't think it's a poor piece. However, I find the Vaughan Williams symphonies to be on a slow, if bumpy, downhill slope after the 5th, a masterpiece of thematic distinction, structural clarity and deep humanity. The 6th is probably better than I remember it - I don't like it enough to keep returning to it - and the 8th is attractively colorful and probably underestimated, but the 7th is basically (and actually) film music, and the 9th is sprawling and grim; it's quite dramatic in tone but seems not to know where it's going. It ends with a grandiloquent major chord, but why? It seems more a narrative tone poem than a symphony, and would have made a superb soundtrack for a British war movie.


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