# My musical journey



## jani

*great scores for beginners!*

_[Moderators note: This thread consists of multiple merged threads. See here: http://www.talkclassical.com/21262-my-musical-journey-2.html#post352498
5-Sep-12]_

So i hello my name is Jani and i am from Finland...

I love Beethovens music very much. He wanted to make me start composing other kinds of music than only rock/metal. So i have composed some compositions but they aren't even nearly as good as i want them to be. ( yeah, i know practice,practice,practice)
So i decided to start to read scores. Of course i immediately bought some Beethoven scores but here is the problem, They are too complicated. I dont get much out of them. SO could you tell me which scores would be great studying material for beginners. So in the future i would be able to learn more from Beethovens scores!

Pardon my bad English!


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## Jeremy Marchant

I would have thought solo keyboard music, or string quartets would be a good place to start. 
How about getting the Beethoven SQs. Of course, you know alrready what needs to be done: practise, practise, practise.


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde

You're into Beethoven, try piano sonatas. For free out of copyright scores go to IMSLP.


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## Hausmusik

jani, I agree with Jeremy. I think you might find Beethoven's string quartets a better place to begin than his sonatas. You can begin by following just a single instrumental line from start to finish and slowly try out reading all four parts simultaneously and learning how the parts work together. 

Symphonies from the classical period (Haydn, Mozart) would also be good choices because they are not densely orchestrated.

I think Beethoven's piano sonatas are going to prove too dense for a beginner to make sense of, and besides piano parts are harder to read than string parts because of dense chordal writing, etc. You'd find it easier to follow the Serioso (or Death and the Maiden) than the Appassionata (or the D.960), I imagine.

Definitely look at IMSLP as AvantGarde says. It is the best.


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## jani

Hausmusik said:


> jani, I agree with Jeremy. I think you might find Beethoven's string quartets a better place to begin than his sonatas. You can begin by following just a single instrumental line from start to finish and slowly try out reading all four parts simultaneously and learning how the parts work together.
> 
> Symphonies from the classical period (Haydn, Mozart) would also be good choices because they are not densely orchestrated.
> 
> I think Beethoven's piano sonatas are going to prove too dense for a beginner to make sense of, and besides piano parts are harder to read than string parts because of dense chordal writing, etc. You'd find it easier to follow the Serioso (or Death and the Maiden) than the Appassionata (or the D.960), I imagine.
> 
> Definitely look at IMSLP as AvantGarde says. It is the best.


Ok, thanks for you guys!


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## jani

*Minds ear ( developing it)*

First of all i don't know if this is the right sub-forum for this post, so move it if its not.
Ok on to business.
So i use 15- 40 minutes in a day for ear training,and i am making steady progress but when it comes to my minds ear the progress is very slow. 
My current ear training strategy:
Play/listen to intervals ( I also play the interval in my head) ------> Testing ( I use an android app for testing at the moment.)
Play/listen to chords ( I also play the chord in my head) ------> Testing ( I use an website for testing at the moment.)
Play/listen to scales/modes ( Mostly major scale modes.) ( I also play the scale in my head) 
Play/listen to Individual notes ( I also play the note in my head) 
Learn how to play guitar licks/riffs by ear

But the problem is that the intervals/scales/notes don't stay in my head accurately for long!

So could you share some minds ear training strategies/tips.

:tiphat:


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## chee_zee

singing everything should be your numbah 1 priority, other than that it seems fine just keep at it.


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## MaestroViolinist

Yes, singing would definitely help, and just keep listening to scales.


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## kv466

Well,...those all sound good to me and luckily I have most of 'em free of charge; that is, I didn't put any work into it...but if you do, I'm sure you can work it out...try and get good and catching simple songs keys by ear and, of course, major works such as symphonies as well...you should know any big notes when you hear them...as far as the learning songs on guitar by ear,...you definitely want to do that but eventually get to the point where you learn them by ear but in your head as you're listening to it for the first time so that the second you grab the guitar next, you already know it or are just about there with it. Memorize every, single little note in many huge works and separate and enjoy them all at once. Practice your instruments with all sorts of distractions. And as our good buddy above said,...singing is definitely a good thing. It'll really help with your key recognition. Good luck and have fun!


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## jani

kv466 said:


> Well,...those all sound good to me and luckily I have most of 'em free of charge; that is, I didn't put any work into it...but if you do, I'm sure you can work it out...try and get good and catching simple songs keys by ear and, of course, major works such as symphonies as well...you should know any big notes when you hear them...as far as the learning songs on guitar by ear,...you definitely want to do that but eventually get to the point where you learn them by ear but in your head as you're listening to it for the first time so that the second you grab the guitar next, you already know it or are just about there with it. Memorize every, single little note in many huge works and separate and enjoy them all at once. Practice your instruments with all sorts of distractions. And as our good buddy above said,...singing is definitely a good thing. It'll really help with your key recognition. Good luck and have fun!


Ok,thanks for all of you!


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## jani

*Copyrights*

So i am writing a piece which includes a worldwide known theme and its used by a major company.
So if i transcribe the theme into a different key, would i break the copyright laws?
I wouldn't be selling the piece or anything i just want to do it so i would get better at composing and upload it to Youtube so i could get some criticism etc...

Also the original theme is in 3/4 and if i would change it to 4/4 would i break the law then?


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde

What company?


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## jani

Nokia, they also nicked their tune from a classical piece and only changed the last note.


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde

jani said:


> Nokia, they also nicked their tune from a classical piece and only changed the last note.


Yes I know. I've played Tarrega's _Gran Vals _on guitar. You should call the piece "Rhapsody on a theme of Tarrega which was stolen by Nokia and is now heard over one billion times every day. No need to turn your phone off during the performance because the orchestra will be playing the same thing!"

Nokia stole the tune first, and you could acknowledge its original source in the title of the composition without breaching copyright.


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## chee_zee

Theres a nokia fugue so I doubt it if for nonprofit.


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## Kopachris

Yes, you would be violating Nokia's copyright. Would anybody (or Nokia in particular) care? No.

If you changed any note, on the other hand, you wouldn't be violating their copyright. (The producers of the musical _Wicked_ had to do the same thing with the tune for "Somewhere Over the Rainbow," IIRC.)


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## Chrythes

But as CoAG stated before this tune was borrowed from Tarrega's Gran Vals, and as far as I know there's no copyright over his music.

So you can freely use this theme and if for some reason Nokia decides to get to you just show them bar N.14 of this score -
http://www.delcamp.net/pdf/francisco_tarrega_gran_vals.pdf


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde

Kopachris said:


> Yes, you would be violating Nokia's copyright. Would anybody (or Nokia in particular) care? No.
> 
> If you changed any note, on the other hand, you wouldn't be violating their copyright. (The producers of the musical _Wicked_ had to do the same thing with the tune for "Somewhere Over the Rainbow," IIRC.)


Only if you changed the _last note_


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## Kopachris

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> Only if you changed the _last note_


Changing the last note is the only precedent we have in the courts, but theoretically, changing any note would do as long as the motif did not show up in the original work like that. It _is_ up to the court to decide on a case-by-case basis whether or not a work is different enough from the original to avoid copyright infringement.

Still, it would cost Nokia way more to sue you than they'd get out of it. Frankly, you're not worth it to them.


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde

O


Kopachris said:


> Changing the last note is the only precedent we have in the courts, but theoretically, changing any note would do as long as the motif did not show up in the original work like that. It _is_ up to the court to decide on a case-by-case basis whether or not a work is different enough from the original to avoid copyright infringement.
> 
> Still, it would cost Nokia way more to sue you than they'd get out of it. Frankly, you're not worth it to them.


Nokia changed the last note. If you keep the last note the same as the original I highly doubt you would get in trouble for making use of a work written in 1901.


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## Kopachris

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> O
> Nokia changed the last note. If you keep the last note the same as the original I highly doubt you would get in trouble for making use of a work written in 1901.


Exactly.

Oh, also, I just found out that we're not dealing with copyright law. Nokia claims a sound trademark on that tune, not copyright, so you can only get in trouble if you use it commercially or in a way that implies that Nokia endorses your work.


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## Jeremy Marchant

I find noticing intervals in the music I know helps. 
For example, fifth: opening of _Also sprach Zarathrustra_
And so on.


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## jani

Jeremy Marchant said:


> I find noticing intervals in the music I know helps.
> For example, fifth: opening of _Also sprach Zarathrustra_
> And so on.


yea, when i hear a perfect 5th it immediately makes me think one of the pieces from star wars. 4th a part of Beethovens fidelio opera, Major third part of Beethovens violin concerto, major second reminds me of Happy birthday etc...


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## Jaws

For anyone else like me. I NEVER use intervals for anything. In fact I probably can't tell one from another. They get in the way of how the notes sound. I am more interested in how a note sounds than how far apart it is from the next one. This just goes to show that one size doesn't fit all when it comes to learning music.


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## jani

*Theme and variations for flute in G*

So i wrote this short piece, today please tell me what do you think about it. All feedback is appreciated and that incldes the negative feedback too.
(Basically everything that would help me to improve.)
:tiphat:


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## Krisena

Cute melody. 

Maybe I'd try to make the variations with more... variation? Those first ones are so similar, they sound almost completely the same to me on the first listen, and they're maybe not as interesting as I think they should be (you should try to hook the listener from the start). Try making some REALLY obscure and amazing variations, to such a degree that it's almost impossible to hear the original melody, while still keeping the notion of the original melody in there. Maybe try to listen to how other composers do the variations thingy. If you want to have fun, listen to Rachmaninoff's Paganini variations.

I often find that making music is the art of exaggeration, because there's such a large gap between you and your audience and regardless of whether you're the composer or the musician, you have to gesticulate with large movements for people to even see you. If you've ever been to a play, picture the actors and how nobody would talk and hold themselves like them in real life. What may be major variations in your piece for you, is simply experienced as an ornament for the listener, because you KNOW this variation. You're the composer after all, you know it's coming. So keep in mind when you compose that if you really want a point to strike home with the audience, you really have to stretch out of your comfort zone and exaggerate!

Hope this can help you further in your career.


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## jani

Ok thanks :tiphat:

When i composed that i didin't want to loose the original tune, and now i notice that i made the change too slowly& the changes were to small.


"Cute melody. "
Maybe when i am at my 40s, i am a master melodist.


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## Ramako

This is a lot better than my attempts at solo pieces. I will probably return to the genre at some stage when I have more leisure time (probably my 60's lol).

I agree with Krisena concerning the variations being slow to develop. However, the whole thing doesn't obviously strike me as a set of variations, probably because I am used to cadences and repeats . But seriously I think that it has its own gentle rhythm, and the use of the diatonic scale is very distinctive - some parts sound almost pentatonic - or rather you seem to characterize certain areas of pitch, and these seem to develop (or indeed vary) as the piece progresses. The contrast between these seems to keep the piece moving while this almost separation of the various parts of the scale, through the way the theme is written, is the driving force behind it.

I have no idea if that was your intention but that is my reaction to the piece analysed so I hope it helps


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## jani

So instead of making a new thread for everywork i want to share with you i decided to make one thread were i post it all ( This one), i am gonna delete all my other threads on this section.
How do i delete my threads, if i can't mods please can you do it?
So since i haven't recorded anything for months, i decided to plug my Pod to my laptop and press record and see what comes out. This clip is totally improvised and recorded on one take. I decided to use a clean tone o i could have a better recording tone. I know that some of you might not be into music like this but it would be nice to recieve some feedback


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## Huilunsoittaja

jani said:


> So i wrote this short piece, today please tell me what do you think about it. All feedback is appreciated and that incldes the negative feedback too.
> (Basically everything that would help me to improve.)
> :tiphat:


As a flutist... I wouldn't want to play that, sorry.  But maybe a young flutist with a few years experience could have fun with it. I see it's only a rough outline, but for further drafts, add dynamics for sure, and different articulation. Also, expand the range. It's okay to put flute way up in the stratosphere, 3,4, even 5 lines above the staff. Middle C is our lower limit though.


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## Couchie

IMHO if you've written a piece with no sharps or flats, you're doing it wrong.


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## BurningDesire

Couchie said:


> IMHO if you've written a piece with no sharps or flats, you're doing it wrong.


what if its in C Major?


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## jani

BurningDesire said:


> what if its in C Major?


Or in A minor? ( yes it is in C)
anyway that work is garbage to a work i am writing now, Theme and variations for piano in C


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## BurningDesire

jani said:


> Or in A minor? ( yes it is in C)
> anyway that work is garbage to a work i am writing now, Theme and variations for piano in C


Well that would probably be in A aeolian  if its common practice we'd likely raise the sevenths leading back to A.


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## jani

The relative minor in C is A min


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## jani

Check out this piece that i made today!
My attempt of atonal music!


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## BurningDesire

jani said:


> The relative minor in C is A min


I'm aware, but if you write in A minor, your pretty much guarenteed to have some sharps. If you don't then its in aeolian mode rather than minor.


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## Couchie

BurningDesire said:


> what if its in C Major?


And what, no harmonic progression?


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## BurningDesire

Couchie said:


> And what, no harmonic progression?


Its perfectly legitimate to have a piece in C Major that only uses the notes from the key. o3o You don't need to modulate to make something interesting or great.


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## Couchie

BurningDesire said:


> Its perfectly legitimate to have a piece in C Major that only uses the notes from the key. o3o You don't need to modulate to make something interesting or great.


That's patent nonsense and you're a fiend.


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## Clump

In classical music minor = harmonic minor, so it gets a leading note in it. Minor = natural minor is how guitarists are usually taught though.



BurningDesire said:


> o3o


Wtf kind of nose is that


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## jani

Clump said:


> In classical music minor = harmonic minor, so it gets a leading note in it. Minor = natural minor is how guitarists are usually taught though.
> 
> Wtf kind of nose is that


Yeah! 678910


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## jani

I composed this piece 10-7 months ago, i wanted to compose an album full of music( didn't do it because i wasn't happy with my current skill level) with very strong fantasy quality.
I think its not so bad.
All kinda feedback is appreciated!


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## juergen

Yes it's really not bad. I like it, it's very relaxing. The only point I have is that the introduction of the dissonances at 2:38 (and 2:50) is a bit surprising. After listening over two minutes to consonant sounds I didn't expect them. But maybe that's only me.


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## Ramako

It's good - I don't find the times juergen mentions problematic at all. I can see that it is fantasy related but it isn't what I would immediately associate with fantasy - it's a bit less mainstream I think. But still it is fantasy - and it is good - nice and relaxing - well done!


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## jani

Thanks Juergen and Ramako. I did it before i knew what sonata form was etc.. Had much less knowledge about theory.


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## juergen

jani said:


> I did it before i knew what sonata form was etc.. Had much less knowledge about theory.


More knowledge of music theory does not necessarily mean that you will make better music. Of course, this knowledge can enhance your musical expressiveness. But it can also have the opposite effect, it might obstruct your creativity. Dont' try to press your music into a theoretical concept, as the sonata form. Just trust your ears.


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## jani

I just wrote a new piece!
Its called Four&Sixteen.
I think you see why when you hear it!
http://musescore.com/user/27469/scores/62499

All feedback is appreciated negative&positive!


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## Jord

jani said:


> So i am writing a piece which includes a worldwide known theme and its used by a major company.
> So if i transcribe the theme into a different key, would i break the copyright laws?
> I wouldn't be selling the piece or anything i just want to do it so i would get better at composing and upload it to Youtube so i could get some criticism etc...
> 
> Also the original theme is in 3/4 and if i would change it to 4/4 would i break the law then?


This has probably already been answered but i thought that if a piece of music has been written for over 70 years ish it's free to use in the public domain or something. But you'd have to look into it more, and about what scores to get, i don't analyse many scores but when i do i just look at pieces which have similar structures, similar instrumentation or similar tonality, i think that's the best way to do it or you're looking at scores which might not have any relevance to the piece you're writing, although it still could help


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## Jord

jani said:


> I just wrote a new piece!
> Its called Four&Sixteen.
> I think you see why when you hear it!
> http://musescore.com/user/27469/scores/62499
> 
> All feedback is appreciated negative&positive!


Personally i'd say if that's one whole idea it needs a more solid perfect cadence at the end

Also the end of bar 2 beats 3 and 4 really ruins the piece for me because the contrast from bar 1 and 3 with the silence, unless you was going to write it with more instruments to fill out the gap. There's nothing wrong with what you did, it's just personally i don't think it's the right thing to do at that point in the piece


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## jani

I did my own short arrangment of ode to joy!

All feedback is welcome!
http://musescore.com/user/27469/scores/85659


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## jani

http://musescore.com/user/27469/scores/92708

The original idea was that i was gonna write a minuet but as i started writing i noticed that the rhythm wasn't very danceable, so it really is a short piece using the ABA form.
All feedback is appreciated! Postive&negative!

http://musescore.com/user/27469/scores/92708


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## jani

jani said:


> http://musescore.com/user/27469/scores/92708
> 
> The original idea was that i was gonna write a minuet but as i started writing i noticed that the rhythm wasn't very danceable, so it really is a short piece using the ABA form.
> All feedback is appreciated! Postive&negative!
> 
> http://musescore.com/user/27469/scores/92708


Hmm... I could make that to something good if i would orchestrate it and work on it.

Soft violin, Viola, Cello, flute and maybe clarinet.


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