# Ask the Experts



## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

What is your "specialty," if any? If someone, newbie or experienced, wanted to know more about a certain area of CM, such as a composer, player, type of work, available recordings, etc, could you put yourself forward as a "go-to-guy" to answer these queries?

I know that CoAG's specialty is Ligeti, so I could ask him what recording to get of "Atmospheres," or anything else. Mahlerian or Peter-from LA would be knowledgable on Schoenberg. Who is an expert on, say, piano works by Stravinsky?

Use this thread to tout your expertise, or to ask questions about specific or obscure topics on any aspect of CM.

My areas of expertise: Schoenberg, Ives.


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## aleazk (Sep 30, 2011)

Ravel and Ligeti are my specialities. . Ask!.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

aleazk said:


> Ravel and Ligeti are my specialities. . Ask!.


What complete Ravel piano-works sets are available, or do you suggest? I have Dominique Merlet.

----------•••


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## Vaneyes (May 11, 2010)

Concierge to the Universe.


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## vertigo (Jan 9, 2013)

Great thread!

One for the Mahler experts:

I've been getting acquainted with his 2nd symphony the past week (i.e. listened to it 4 times).
Is there any interesting information (beyond the wikipedia article) worth knowing about this symphony, or this time in Mahler's life (or any other interesting connection)?

Thanks


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## aleazk (Sep 30, 2011)

millionrainbows said:


> What complete Ravel piano-works sets are available, or do you suggest? I have Dominique Merlot.


Actually, for Ravel, I like Argerich. She has that bright touch which is appropriate for some of Ravel's pieces, particularly the fast ones. She does not plays the full of Ravel's oeuvre, and also there is not a compilation of her recordings, they are scattered.

----------------------
Also you have Vlado Perlemuter, who studied with Ravel himself. He recorded all of Ravel's solo piano pieces http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0..._m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_r=1PV1NTAHDVHS6H56KDSJ

Another one (Jean-Philippe Collard): http://www.amazon.com/Ravel-Complete-Works-Solo-Piano/dp/B0002XV2Y8/ref=pd_cp_m_3


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## Arsakes (Feb 20, 2012)

Only 'Antonín Leopold Dvořák'.


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## Crudblud (Dec 29, 2011)

I only know that I know nothing (except Zappa).

On a more strict classical front I suppose I might know a thing or two about Messiaen, Mahler and Ravel.


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

millionrainbows said:


> What complete Ravel piano-works sets are available, or do you suggest?


Samson François, complete, also the two piano concerti, all now on EMI, budget re-releases. (Sound is fine)

Parlemuter, if available, another 'go to guy' for Ravel.

Monique Haas, the next generation 'in line' from the source, a fabulous musician / pianist.


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## Crudblud (Dec 29, 2011)

PetrB said:


> Samson François, complete, also the two piano concerti, all now on EMI, budget re-releases. (Sound is fine)


Seconding this, his _Miroirs_ is especially brilliant.


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

Vaneyes said:


> Concierge to the Universe.


That must be one cosmic scale chatelaine you have to carry around, the weight alone -- oh, wait


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## tdc (Jan 17, 2011)

I have an EMI disc that has Samson Francois performing the Ravel PC's, as well as _Valses nobles et sentimentales_ and _Gaspard de la Nuit_, and while the playing is often good, it comes across as a little too inconsistent, eccentric and 'Gould-like' for me to consider him as the 'go-to' guy for Ravel. I'm listening to his _Une barque sur l'ocean _on youtube right now and this really just reinforces my opinion.

This version of the same piece by Andre Laplante I find much better.


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## Vaneyes (May 11, 2010)

PetrB said:


> That must be one cosmic scale chatelaine you have to carry around, the weight alone -- oh, wait


You know it. Someone wanted Resurrection help, now I can't find the thread/post.


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## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

I consider myself most knowledgeable about Mahler (I've read the La Grange biography), Schoenberg (and the 2nd Viennese School in general), Bruckner, Debussy, Stravinsky, Messiaen, and Takemitsu, although there are some gaps in my knowledge here and there, and works I'm less familiar with.



vertigo said:


> One for the Mahler experts:
> 
> I've been getting acquainted with his 2nd symphony the past week (i.e. listened to it 4 times).
> Is there any interesting information (beyond the wikipedia article) worth knowing about this symphony, or this time in Mahler's life (or any other interesting connection)?
> ...


That's a tad vague to really answer...but I'll post a few remarks. Mahler was a young conductor without a name at the time in the 1880s, working in Hamburg. His first Symphony had had a disastrous premiere, so he wouldn't have expected anything to change with his second, which is almost as "out there" (not quite, though).

I'm going to post a detailed analysis of the second sometime in the next month on my blog, though, if you're interested.


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## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

"Go-to guy"? Hmm. I know my way around Erik Satie - he's the composer who got me back into classical, so I was a little obsessed with him for a couple years - but I haven't purchased any newer CDs lately. Maybe I'd be the back-up go-to guy. 

I also was really into sacred music for a while - the latest CDs, marking up scores. I haven't had time for that recently, so, again, I'd probably be the backup go-to guy.


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## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

It should be clear to everyone by now that it does no good to ask me about _anything_.


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## vertigo (Jan 9, 2013)

Mahlerian said:


> I consider myself most knowledgeable about Mahler (I've read the La Grange biography), Schoenberg (and the 2nd Viennese School in general), Bruckner, Debussy, Stravinsky, Messiaen, and Takemitsu, although there are some gaps in my knowledge here and there, and works I'm less familiar with.
> 
> That's a tad vague to really answer...but I'll post a few remarks. Mahler was a young conductor without a name at the time in the 1880s, working in Hamburg. His first Symphony had had a disastrous premiere, so he wouldn't have expected anything to change with his second, which is almost as "out there" (not quite, though).
> 
> I'm going to post a detailed analysis of the second sometime in the next month on my blog, though, if you're interested.


Very interested! Thanks for the info already offered...the URL for your blog?


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## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

vertigo said:


> Very interested! Thanks for the info already offered...the URL for your blog?


I'm just talking about my blog here on Talkclassical.

<----- over here


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## vertigo (Jan 9, 2013)

Mahlerian said:


> I'm just talking about my blog here on Talkclassical.
> 
> <----- over here


:tiphat:

......


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## Tristan (Jan 5, 2013)

You could ask me about ballet or Tchaikovsky. I have most of Tchaikovsky's oeuvre and I have a _lot_ of ballet music. I'm less knowledgeable about post-1960 music, however.


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## Weston (Jul 11, 2008)

Jack of all genres, specialist of none. Although I'm an irredeemable Jethro Tull / Ian Anderson and Yes fanboy.


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## Vaneyes (May 11, 2010)

vertigo said:


> Great thread!
> 
> One for the Mahler experts:
> 
> ...


It premiered in 1895, and he was still getting mixed reviews for it in 1910. At a April 1910 performance in Paris, with Mahler conducting, audience members Debussy and Dukas walked out in the 2nd Movement, as a sign of disapproval. A year later Mahler returned to Paris for medical treatment, and shortly after he was dead.

Apart from buying biographies, there is a lot of Resurrection information online. I have taken the liberty of collecting some of these for you. I hope you will find some of it useful.

Leading the list of links is the Mahler List, but you might like to save that for last, to search their archives. Following is the Gustav Mahler Society of New York City. They hold wonderful events pertaining to the composer's life and works. Do attend if you have the opportunity.

Thereafter, are a host of informative sites. Enjoy!

http://listserv.uh.edu/archives/mahler-list.html

http://www.gmsnyc.org/

http://www.rodoni.ch/mahler/index.html

http://gustavmahler.net.free.fr/us.html

http://www.barbwired.com/barbweb/programs/mahler_2.html

http://www.carnegiehall.org/History/Timeline/Timeline.aspx?id=4294968747

http://www.kennedy-center.org/calendar/?fuseaction=composition&composition_id=2484

http://www.scena.org/lsm/sm8-3/Mahler_en.htm

http://www.economist.com/node/12675794

http://inkpot.com/classical/mah2klem.html

http://www.laphil.com/philpedia/music/symphony-no-2-resurrection-gustav-mahler

http://www.ee.columbia.edu/~jmeng/html/barker-mahler.html

http://www.musicweb-international.com/Mahler/Mahler2.htm

http://www.classicalnotes.net/classics/mahlersym2.html


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Well, you can ask me about this, but I probably can't answer.


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## Huilunsoittaja (Apr 6, 2010)

Wanna get recommendations on Russian composers? I'm here to help! If you want to know about Glazunov, Prokofiev, Shostakovich, or a host of other Russians, I know a lot, both their lives and their music. I like to call myself a self-professed Russian musicologist.


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## Weston (Jul 11, 2008)

Huilunsoittaja said:


> Wanna get recommendations on Russian composers? I'm here to help! If you want to know about Glazunov, Prokofiev, Shostakovich, or a host of other Russians, I know a lot, both their lives and their music. I like to call myself a self-professed Russian musicologist.


I would never have guessed! 

Very well. Where should I begin with Arensky? I might be more interested in chamber works at first, though a nice big formal orchestral work can be nice if it's not too raging. (I'm under a lot of stress at the moment.) And thanks.


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## bigshot (Nov 22, 2011)

I don't have a specialty. I guess my specialty is diversity. I like to have broad, clear overviews rather than tight focus.


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## peeyaj (Nov 17, 2010)

*Schubert* fan. Ask me anything.


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## Crudblud (Dec 29, 2011)

peeyaj said:


> *Schubert* fan. Ask me anything.


How does quantum mechanics affect the density of a cheese sandwich?


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## Andolink (Oct 29, 2012)

What I know a decent amount about is 20th and 21st Century Modernist (avant-garde) music and European music from the period 1300-1750. I also have a pretty good grasp of avant-garde electro-acoustic music and free-improvisation.


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## bigshot (Nov 22, 2011)

Crudblud said:


> How does quantum mechanics affect the density of a cheese sandwich?


Cheddar or American cheese?


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

bigshot said:


> Cheddar or American cheese?


Or French cheese that smells like people's feet?


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## arpeggio (Oct 4, 2012)

*Band Junkie*

My favorite composer is Mahler. If you asked me what the best recording of Mahler's Fifth is my response would be 

As a bank junkie I am also a Grainger junkie. I have just about every recording of _Lincolnshire Posy_. I do not have the Rattle recording but I have heard excerpts.

I can give one an informed answer on the best recordings for that piece.

I am not the only band junkie here. 'Trout' also know a lot about band music.


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## EddieRUKiddingVarese (Jan 8, 2013)

Crudblud said:


> How does quantum mechanics affect the density of a cheese sandwich?


Ah but you knew there was an answer - that's cheating -the grilled cheese sandwich debate, refer below:

"In GR, it warps space, but does it also slow it down? ... AKA grilled cheese sandwich. ... GR most likely will be inaccurate when we finally get a unification between gravity and quantum mechanics but it will still be useful in .... whenever one of those changes, in our case the relevant one is the mass density"

QED


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## Crudblud (Dec 29, 2011)

bigshot said:


> Cheddar or American cheese?


I'm thinking Manchego.


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## bigshot (Nov 22, 2011)

Tristan said:


> You could ask me about ballet or Tchaikovsky. I have most of Tchaikovsky's oeuvre and I have a _lot_ of ballet music.


I have a burning Tchaikovsky question...

I have a LOT of Dorati Russian music. It is consistently wonderful with terrific sound and expressive performances. I keep thinking about the Dorati Tchaikovsky symphony cycle. But it's out of print and the used prices are astronomical. I have lots of great Tchaikovsky symphonies, but have you heard Dorati? Is it worth the big bucks they are asking for it?


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

KenOC said:


> Or French cheese that smells like people's feet?


I thought it was French people that smelled like stinky cheese?


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## vertigo (Jan 9, 2013)

Vaneyes said:


> It premiered in 1895, and he was still getting mixed reviews for it in 1910. At a April 1910 performance in Paris, with Mahler conducting, audience members Debussy and Dukas walked out in the 2nd Movement, as a sign of disapproval. A year later Mahler returned to Paris for medical treatment, and shortly after he was dead.
> 
> Apart from buying biographies, there is a lot of Resurrection information online. I have taken the liberty of collecting some of these for you. I hope you will find some of it useful.
> 
> ...


Wonderful, thanks! I'll dig in!
I'm listening to the Zubin Mehta version (of the 2nd)..How would you rate it? Any other version I should be listening to?


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## Tristan (Jan 5, 2013)

bigshot said:


> I have a burning Tchaikovsky question...
> 
> I have a LOT of Dorati Russian music. It is consistently wonderful with terrific sound and expressive performances. I keep thinking about the Dorati Tchaikovsky symphony cycle. But it's out of print and the used prices are astronomical. I have lots of great Tchaikovsky symphonies, but have you heard Dorati? Is it worth the big bucks they are asking for it?


Sorry to disappoint, but I haven't. I have some Dorati Tchaikovsky; I have little complaints other than the way he handled the finale of Sleeping Beauty. It seems that the MP3 album on Amazon is $45, though.


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## clavichorder (May 2, 2011)

I feel like I'm more useful in recommending the interesting obscure things I know about now that I've gotten back in solid touch with the music of more mainstream composers that I admire the most. If you think we share a similar ear, I may be able to pull out some gems from the lesser known composers or works that I've surveyed, that would appeal to an open minded listener. With that in mind, here are some areas I have more extensively looked into: 

1) Nikolai Medtner's music and style; I'm not the most knowledgeable on TC, but by and large the most likely to be outspoken about it if someone shows curiosity. He's a Russian piano composer with a very consistent realization of tonal music into the middle of the 20th century. 

2) The sons of J.S. Bach, though I don't have a very full grasp of J.C. Bach's entire body of work, and there was a 5th one whose name I can't remember who died younger but showed promise. C.P.E. Bach and W.F. Bach, I got you covered, and J.C.F. Bach, we may be able to flesh his name out into a distinct composer(its worth it, imo).

3) Seems like I have some things to offer in the obscure classical era/classical-baroque transition composers niche.

4) I can be one of several around here to offer some guidance with the symphonies of Franz Joseph Haydn. 

4) A lot of other odd works and composers from early modernist era, and anything earlier than the early Romantic period. I'm more mainstream in knowledge and passion with the Romantics, but there are a few exceptions.

5) If you want to learn about the clavichord and the music that can be played on it, that's what I'm named for. But I may not have the passion for it these days. It depends on how interested somebody might be.


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## Guest (Jan 23, 2013)

bigshot said:


> Is it worth the big bucks they are asking for it?


No, but there's four by itself for 16.99 new, five by itself for 11.34 used, six by itself for 14.95 used and a set of 1, 2, and 3 for 14.97 used.

And the Dorati are worth 58.25 plus shipping, yes.


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## Huilunsoittaja (Apr 6, 2010)

Weston said:


> I would never have guessed!
> 
> Very well. Where should I begin with Arensky? I might be more interested in chamber works at first, though a nice big formal orchestral work can be nice if it's not too raging. (I'm under a lot of stress at the moment.) And thanks.


Although I'm not _very _familiar with Russian Chamber music, I'm a little bit more so with Arensky, coincidentally. He wrote 2 piano trios, a piano quintet, and 2 string quartets, and probably some other stuff I don't know. I highly suggest his 1st Piano trio, that's probably his best work, very nice recurring melody that goes throughout it. His scherzos are quite nice in all of those above. Also (sorta chamber-wise) his suites for 2 pianos are excellent, and I suggest the 1st, 2nd and 4th suites, probably start with the 1st.


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## GGluek (Dec 11, 2011)

Have a wide general knowledge, and about 2 feet of my ten-foot music bookshelf are devoted to books on/about Beethoven -- but they just prove to me how little I know. 

George


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## Xaltotun (Sep 3, 2010)

I'm an expert in wild, off-the wall, poetic interpretations of pieces of classical music. I aspire to be an expert of German Romanticism in general (meaning, in music/philosophy/literature/art), too, but that will still take years to achieve.


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## Hassid (Sep 29, 2012)

I can give some advise on 20TH.century violinists (in particular Oistrakh), on historical chamber recordings and about romantic violin concerti.


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## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

Andolink said:


> What I know a decent amount about is . . . European music from the period 1300-1750. I also have a pretty good grasp of . . . free-improvisation.


Great! I really like that period also.

I haven't gotten much into free improvisation past Coltrane/Ornette Coleman/Albert Ayler. Any recommendations?


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## echmain (Jan 18, 2013)

Crudblud said:


> How does quantum mechanics affect the density of a cheese sandwich?


Trick question. The cheese sandwich may or may not exist. Until it is observed.


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## EddieRUKiddingVarese (Jan 8, 2013)

echmain said:


> Trick question. The cheese sandwich may or may not exist. Until it is observed.


ah yes the quantum effect and it may exist, (if it does) in more than one place and time at the same time- clear isn't it .....

would be a very tasty sandwich


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## clavichorder (May 2, 2011)

How does quantum mechanics affect the density of anything? I'm sure it does, but how?


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## Vaneyes (May 11, 2010)

vertigo said:


> Wonderful, thanks! I'll dig in!
> I'm listening to the Zubin Mehta version (of the 2nd)..How would you rate it? Any other version I should be listening to?


You're most welcome. The Mehta you're listening to--good middle-of-the-road interpretation, with very good playing, choir and soloists. Nicely remastered recording. A recording many Mahler lovers gravitate to.

Other recs. you should attempt to hear: '58 VSOO/Scherchen (Millennium Classics); '61/2 Philharmonia/Klemperer (EMI GROC); '63 NYPO/Bernstein (Sony); '65 BRSO/Klemperer (EMI Legacy, Testament); '83 Staats. Berlin/Suitner (Berlin Classics); '87 NYPO/Bernstein (DG); '00 ASO/Levi (Telarc); '05 VPO/Boulez (DG).

The Scherchen, Bernstein (Sony) are extreme interpretations. Suitner, Klemperers, are urgent interpretations. The Bernstein (DG), Levi, Boulez, along with the aformentioned Mehta, are expansive interpretations. Re CDs, other than the Scherchen, and maybe the BRSO/Klemperer, I believe everything is available at reasonable pricing.

My favorites: 1. Scherchen; 2. Suitner, 3. Klemperer (EMI GROC).

Enjoy!


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## vertigo (Jan 9, 2013)

Thanks! Btw, I read the Economist article. I found it to be one of the most laughable, ridiculous things I've ever read.
Especially the part where he is "consulted by many professional maestros on matters of detail"...seriously :lol:


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## emiellucifuge (May 26, 2009)

clavichorder said:


> How does quantum mechanics affect the density of anything? I'm sure it does, but how?


Density is the amount of mass in a certain area. Mass is made of particles... atoms etc....
Quantum mechanics is a branch of physics explaining the behaviour of those particles.

Your question is a bit of a fallacy


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## bigshot (Nov 22, 2011)

some guy said:


> No, but there's four by itself for 16.99 new, five by itself for 11.34 used, six by itself for 14.95 used and a set of 1, 2, and 3 for 14.97 used. And the Dorati are worth 58.25 plus shipping, yes.


Thanks! That tells me where my next paycheck goes!


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## Jord (Aug 13, 2012)

I have no speciality because i know nothing

'and in knowing that you know nothing that makes you the smartest of all.' - Socrates

Therefore i know everything


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## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

Jord said:


> I have no speciality because i know nothing
> 
> 'and in knowing that you know nothing that makes you the smartest of all.' - Socrates
> 
> Therefore i know everything


Well, you don't know how to correctly interpret that quote, that's for sure...


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## DrKilroy (Sep 29, 2012)

What is the best interpretation of Messiaen's Turangalila-symphonie? 

Best regards, Dr


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## bigshot (Nov 22, 2011)

I have this one and it's pretty doggone goofy if that is what you like. It sounds like a 50s Corman horror movie soundtrack crossed with Debussy.

http://www.amazon.com/Olivier-Messiaen-Turangalîla-Symphony/dp/B000004214


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## Vaneyes (May 11, 2010)

bigshot said:


> I have this one and it's pretty doggone goofy if that is what you like. It sounds like a 50s Corman horror movie soundtrack crossed with Debussy.
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/Olivier-Messiaen-Turangalîla-Symphony/dp/B000004214


That's about right.


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## Vaneyes (May 11, 2010)

DrKilroy said:


> What is the best interpretation of Messiaen's Turangalila-symphonie?
> 
> Best regards, Dr


This work is well represented. For good performance and recorded sound, I suggest auditioning Previn (EMI), Chung (DG), Wit (Naxos), Nagano (Warner). The best interpretation is as always, what *you* like. In this case, due to the work's challenging dynamics, it's probably more important to choose the engineering that agrees most with your constitution. :tiphat:


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

DrKilroy said:


> What is the best interpretation of Messiaen's Turangalila-symphonie?
> 
> Best regards, Dr


That's a good question! I heard several people say they were dissatisfied with Myung-Whun Chung's version on DG, saying it was "lacking in emotion." Any Messiaen experts out there? Is there a French Mystic in the house? (now I see the responses above, I was eating cheese and digging through my Messiaen CDs).

I have Chailly on London, which is my pick; I also have Simon Rattle's on EMI.


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## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

Vaneyes said:


> This work is well represented. For good performance and recorded sound, I suggest auditioning Previn (EMI), Chung (DG), Wit (Naxos), Nagano (Warner). The best interpretation is as always, what *you* like. In this case, due to the work's challenging dynamics, it's probably more important to choose the engineering that agrees most with your constitution. :tiphat:


Previn has the advantage of the composer's wife Yvonne Loriod providing the piano solo part. She was the one he wrote all of his difficult piano solos for. It's a bit more restrained in its interpretation, though, so if you want Messiaen to go full-throttle and wild as possible, you might want to look elsewhere.


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## DrKilroy (Sep 29, 2012)

Thank you all, I'll try the recordings you suggested. 

Best regards, Dr


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## Vaneyes (May 11, 2010)

millionrainbows said:


> That's a good question! I heard several people say they were dissatisfied with Myung-Whun Chung's version on DG, saying it was "lacking in emotion." Any Messiaen experts out there? Is there a French Mystic in the house? (now I see the responses above, I was eating cheese and digging through my Messiaen CDs).
> 
> I have Chailly on London, which is my pick; I also have Simon Rattle's on EMI.


I'd like those people to meet my people. 

Trade up, MR, Chailly's not competitive, and Rattle's need only be compared with Nagano and the same band. :tiphat:


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## Vaneyes (May 11, 2010)

Mahlerian said:


> Previn has the advantage of the composer's wife Yvonne Loriod providing the piano solo part. She was the one he wrote all of his difficult piano solos for. It's a bit more restrained in its interpretation, though, so if you want Messiaen to go full-throttle and wild as possible, you might want to look elsewhere.


Several recs. have Messiaen and/or Loriod input, and still sound quite different. I swear Rattle can hear sounds different from all.

I'm not sure full-throttle and wild as possible is feasible with this work. There are many measured and balance requirements. Some do try, and end up with scrambled, ugly sounds.


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## EddieRUKiddingVarese (Jan 8, 2013)

Is it true that Sergei’s Concertos 2 and 3, have the biggest recorded handspan for Piano in classical music?


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## Vaneyes (May 11, 2010)

EddieRUKiddingVarese said:


> Is it true that Sergei's Concertos 2 and 3, have the biggest recorded handspan for Piano in classical music?


That's it, I resign as Concierge of the Universe.


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## bigshot (Nov 22, 2011)

Vaneyes said:


> I'm not sure full-throttle and wild as possible is feasible with this work. There are many measured and balance requirements. Some do try, and end up with scrambled, ugly sounds.


The goofiness of this piece is a big part of its charm. If it was performed in a "measured and balanced" way, it would kill it dead as a cockroach underfoot. Haul out the theremin and go to town, I say!


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## clavichorder (May 2, 2011)

emiellucifuge said:


> Density is the amount of mass in a certain area. Mass is made of particles... atoms etc....
> Quantum mechanics is a branch of physics explaining the behaviour of those particles.
> 
> Your question is a bit of a fallacy


Then the cheese sandwich one was too?


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

Vaneyes said:


> Trade up, MR, Chailly's not competitive, and Rattle's need only be compared with Nagano and the same band. :tiphat:


@Vaneyes & bigshot:

Nagano I might could agree with if I heard it, but I still stand by Chailly.

This brings up a good point: what are we looking for in this work? Sometimes with "difficult" modernist works, I wonder if the quest for "good performance" might actually be a search for connection, for comprehensibility, and if each person's assumptions about what the work is "supposed" to mean drives them toward a certain interpretation.

As far as bigshot's joking reference to Chailly's version as a grade-C horror movie, I see that "fear of the almighty" as being a major part of the work. The recording has harmonic richness and clarity. As far as other types of emotional expressiveness, I question if that is necessary. "Messiaen doesn't compose, he juxtaposes" as Boulez said, meaning that Messiaen was not dealing with "themes" as we would normally think of them, but "sonic entities" which are "declaimed" in repeating, recurrent fashion, like "religious icons."

The use of the Ondes Martenot, in the swooping "statue theme" as Messiaen called it, certainly sounds "creepy," and I wonder how much "real depth" there is to bigshot's off-hand remark, and if it in fact reveals a shallow, surface understanding of what Messiaen is trying to convey here. Fear of God is one thing, and fear of scantily-clad female vampires with exposed cleavage is quite another.

All I really want from a performance of this symphony is a fairly objective approach which brings out the chroma spectrum of colors which Messiaen composed into this. What (exactly) do you look for, Vaneyes?


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## EddieRUKiddingVarese (Jan 8, 2013)

clavichorder said:


> Then the cheese sandwich one was too?


Actually the toasted cheese sandwich is used as an anology in some physics circles - google it and you will be surprised.

also refer to my answer to Crudblud -you have the exspurts here !!

How does quantum mechanics affect the density of a cheese sandwich?

Ah but you knew there was an answer - that's cheating -the grilled cheese sandwich debate, refer below:

"In GR, it warps space, but does it also slow it down? ... AKA grilled cheese sandwich. ... GR most likely will be inaccurate when we finally get a unification between gravity and quantum mechanics but it will still be useful in .... whenever one of those changes, in our case the relevant one is the mass density"

QED


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## EddieRUKiddingVarese (Jan 8, 2013)

Vaneyes said:


> That's it, I resign as Concierge of the Universe.


Do you want an easier question ?


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## bigshot (Nov 22, 2011)

millionrainbows said:


> As far as bigshot's joking reference to Chailly's version as a grade-C horror movie, I see that "fear of the almighty" as being a major part of the work. The recording has harmonic richness and clarity.


holy cow! How did my comment about how goofy this piece is get turned into "fear of the almighty"? This is a silly, goofy bit of nonsense like L Mozart"s Toy Symphony. To attribute anything more to it than that is like praising the emperor's new garments. Can't classical music just be silly without someone over-intellectualizing it?

If you want depth, don't look for it in a concerto for penny whistle!


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## EddieRUKiddingVarese (Jan 8, 2013)

Further "accurate" information on the _biggest recorded handspan for Piano in classical music_

Rachmaninoff was 6'6" (1.98m) tall. His hands were huge, he apparently could span a 13th. He also had a formidable memory for music and could faithfully play back music he had heard only once even years earlier.

He was often perceived as a grumpy person. Igor Stravinsky famously described him as "Six foot six of Russian gloom". However friends and people who knew him well descibe his sense of humour, big laugh and appreciation of good food, wine and good company.

He loved fast cars and had many a fine for speeding. He bought a new car every year. In Switzerland he had a fast boat on Lake Lucerne.

He gave many charitable performances and donated generously to the war effort against the Nazis.

In 1923 he gave a loan to fellow Russian Igor Sikorsky whose Long Island aircraft factory was facing disaster. This was the beginning of a long friendship and Rachmaninoff was made the first Vice-president of the Sikorsky company.


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## Prodromides (Mar 18, 2012)

bigshot said:


> holy cow!


Since Olivier Messiaen utilized two Sanskrit words _turanga_ and _lîla_ for the title of this commissioned work, then perhaps an Indian sacred cow might be a very apt description. 

Messiaen's 1948 "symphony" is actually about romantic love, and the _Ondes Martenot_'s purpose is to sing a love song. The Ondes is neither from a Hollywood B-movie (recall that Miklos Rozsa's theremin in Hitchcock's 1945 _Spellbound_ was for an "A" film production), nor is it functioning, in this case, as a proponent of Messiaen's Catholicism.

(and I'm not even a Messiaen expert!)

While it is true that quite of number of "B" movies from the 1950s utilized a theremin-like instrument to depict threats from outer space or giant insects (especially after Bernard Herrmann's use of that instrument in 1951's _The Day The Earth Stood Still_), it wasn't until after the MPAA rating system of 1968 that vampire flicks relied upon female nudity, to wit Hammer's 1970 _The Vampire Lovers_ with Ingrid Pitt.










In my opinion, Messiaen's "mature" works did not start until the early 1950s when he incorporated bird song into his compositions with _Le Reveil des Oiseaux_. As for Messiaen's color-into-sound, I nominate his 1960 _Chronochromie_ as his outstanding achievement in this regard.


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## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

millionrainbows said:


> The use of the Ondes Martenot, in the swooping "statue theme" as Messiaen called it, certainly sounds "creepy," and I wonder how much "real depth" there is to bigshot's off-hand remark, and if it in fact reveals a shallow, surface understanding of what Messiaen is trying to convey here. Fear of God is one thing, and fear of scantily-clad female vampires with exposed cleavage is quite another.


Prominides is right here, although I personally date Messiaen's mature works as beginning from the late 30s. Turangalila isn't really an explicitly religious work. It's inspired by the Tristan legend but (oddly enough) without any of the guilt or forbidden love aspect. What's left is the notion of lovers united after death (this is more explicit in Harawi, which was very personal to Messiaen, who had recently lost his wife). On the other hand, an implicit religiosity can be found behind Messiaen's works, especially if one understands his personal symbols, but he didn't think it was necessary for audiences (or performers, given that he trusted Boulez for interpretations) to be religious or Catholic to appreciate his works.

The statue theme is actually the one in thirds on trombones. The flower theme is the one on clarinets with vibraphone accent, and the love theme is the chord sequence in the slow movement (transformed into the rondo theme in the finale).

I wouldn't call the Turangalila Symphony "silly", but its exuberance is a little over-the-top at times, and I enjoy it once in a while, though there are Messiaen works I like more. Harawi, Visions de l'Amen, Trois petites liturgies, Oiseaux exotiques, Des canyons..., and so on are closer to my taste.


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## mmsbls (Mar 6, 2011)

Crudblud said:


> How does quantum mechanics affect the density of a cheese sandwich?


OK, I was going to let this go since it has nothing to do with music, but given several, admittedly humorous, replies to this question, I'll give what might be a surprising answer. Quantum mechanics _does_ effect the density. It makes it smaller.

There is a law called the Pauli Exclusion Principle that states that no two electrons can occupy the same quantum state. That may sound a bit mysterious, but the important point here is that as you add electrons to atoms, those electrons cannot all be in the lowest energy state. That lowest state is the closest to the nucleus. Higher states are further away from the nucleus, and electrons in those higher energy states will make the atomic radius larger. So carbon, nitrogen, oxygen, and phosphorus atoms (all components of cheese) are larger than hydrogen atoms. If the Pauli Exclusion Principle were not true, atoms could all be about the same size.

So the Pauli Exclusion Principle makes the atoms (and therefore the molecules) of cheese (and bread) larger. The mass of those molecules would basically be the same. Therefore, the Pauli Exclusion Principle _decreases_ the density of a cheese sandwich by making the sandwich larger.

There are other quantum effects, but this thread is not the place. Remember, physics explains _everything_ (insert diabolical laughter here)!


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## Crudblud (Dec 29, 2011)

mmsbls said:


> OK, I was going to let this go since it has nothing to do with music, but given several, admittedly humorous, replies to this question, I'll give what might be a surprising answer. Quantum mechanics _does_ effect the density. It makes it smaller.
> 
> There is a law called the Pauli Exclusion Principle that states that no two electrons can occupy the same quantum state. That may sound a bit mysterious, but the important point here is that as you add electrons to atoms, those electrons cannot all be in the lowest energy state. That lowest state is the closest to the nucleus. Higher states are further away from the nucleus, and electrons in those higher energy states will make the atomic radius larger. So carbon, nitrogen, oxygen, and phosphorus atoms (all components of cheese) are larger than hydrogen atoms. If the Pauli Exclusion Principle were not true, atoms could all be about the same size.
> 
> ...


I liked this post, but I really needed a "love" button.


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## Prodromides (Mar 18, 2012)

So what is Crudblud's next question for peeyaj?


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## bigshot (Nov 22, 2011)

Mahlerian said:


> I wouldn't call the Turangalila Symphony "silly"


Play it for someone's mom and ask her what she thinks. Moms always cut straight to the chase.

What cosmic philosophy is Ligeti's Nouvelle Aventures based on?


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

EddieRUKiddingVarese said:


> Is it true that Sergei's Concertos 2 and 3, have the biggest recorded handspan for Piano in classical music?


My educated guess says 'no.' A concert pianist pal / colleague also would have mentioned it at least once by now in our several years of correspondence (he has played them all, in concert, numbers of times, has about 200 concerti - including the dense stamina-challenging late romantics, Busoni, etc.)

Rachmaninov was well aware of his freakish hand size, and consciously composed for ordinary mortal performers, not just himself. Composer Andrew Imbrie had huge paws, and one can tell from some of the piano writing.

There are very few composers at all willing to compose for either those with a freakish range or hand-span when it comes to keyboards or strings, or in general an outstandingly freakish virtuosity - it has the limitation of being only performed by one person, which is very much not in the best interest of the composer making a living or the work getting further performance.

Far too too much has been made of the size of Rachmaninov's hands, ditto the 'supreme difficulty' of his third piano concerto, to the point where both have entered the realms of near global Myth.


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## emiellucifuge (May 26, 2009)

My piano teacher is quite renowned, she used to be the accompanist of Renee Fleming, she just told me the other day in fact of her jealousy of Rachmaninov's large hands and how she and many others have to 'break' some of the larger chords.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

bigshot said:


> holy cow! How did my comment about how goofy this piece is get turned into "fear of the almighty"? This is a silly, goofy bit of nonsense like L Mozart"s Toy Symphony. To attribute anything more to it than that is like praising the emperor's new garments. Can't classical music just be silly without someone over-intellectualizing it?
> 
> If you want depth, don't look for it in a concerto for penny whistle!


@bigshot, most of Messiaen's works are about his Catholic mysticism, and I think the characterization of this serious work as "goofy" is beyond ridiculous. Read some liner notes. Sorry, but I take this work and this discussion seriously.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

Prodromides said:


> Since Olivier Messiaen utilized two Sanskrit words _turanga_ and _lîla_ for the title of this commissioned work, then perhaps an Indian sacred cow might be a very apt description.
> 
> Messiaen's 1948 "symphony" is actually about romantic love, and the _Ondes Martenot_'s purpose is to sing a love song. The Ondes is neither from a Hollywood B-movie (recall that Miklos Rozsa's theremin in Hitchcock's 1945 _Spellbound_ was for an "A" film production), nor is it functioning, in this case, as a proponent of Messiaen's Catholicism. (and I'm not even a Messiaen expert!)


I beg to differ. Messiaen was concerned with the story of _Tristan and Isolde_ prior to composing _Turangalîla,_ and the three works form a trilogy. These works were _Harawi_ and _Cinq Rechants,_ and they are ostensibly about romantic love. _Harawi_ is a Peruvian word, based on a South-American version of Tristan and Isolde, two lovers who cannot have each other until after death.

The Ondes Martenot can be clearly heard swooping-up with the horns in what Messiaen called the "statue theme" ("...because it has always evoked for me some fatal and terrible statue"). That theme hardly sounds romantic to me; it's rather terrifying.

The Tristan/Isolde story has connections to Adam & Eve and the "Garden of Eden" idea, which plays a key part in the Western idea of "Heaven" _(see Heaven and Hell in Western Art by Robert Hughes)._

Seeing as Messiaen was interested in world cultures and indian myths of this nature, I think it is prudent to view his use of _Tristan_ and related myths as transcending the obvious, and having deeper import. The title _Turangalîla_ is a compound term, derived from the Sanskrit words _turanga _(meaning 'time which runs like a galloping horse') and _lîla,_ meaning 'game' as in the cosmic game of life and death.



Prodromides said:


> While it is true that quite of number of "B" movies from the 1950s utilized a theremin-like instrument to depict threats from outer space or giant insects (especially after Bernard Herrmann's use of that instrument in 1951's _The Day The Earth Stood Still_), it wasn't until after the MPAA rating system of 1968 that vampire flicks relied upon female nudity, to wit Hammer's 1970 _The Vampire Lovers_ with Ingrid Pitt.


Why the chronology? The Corman/Messiaen connection exists only in bigshot's mind.

---•••







---------------•••







-----------------------•••


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## EddieRUKiddingVarese (Jan 8, 2013)

In response to post #80 & #81, thanks for your comments and the "jealousy of Rachmaninov's large hands"

Interesting I will check further for information on the Concertos 2 and 3.

Did you know also that among Sikorsky's chief supporters was Sergei Rachmaninoff, who introduced himself by writing a check for US$5,000 (approximately $61,000 in 2007 dollars), assisting starting the Sikorsky company.


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## emiellucifuge (May 26, 2009)

Well you can hear that Ashkenazy rolls the opening chords here:





while they are written straight.


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## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

millionrainbows said:


> I beg to differ. Messiaen was concerned with the story of _Tristan and Isolde_ prior to composing _Turangalîla,_ and the three works form a trilogy. These works were _Harawi_ and _Cinq Rechants,_ and they are ostensibly about romantic love. _Harawi_ is a Peruvian word, based on a South-American version of Tristan and Isolde, two lovers who cannot have each other until after death.


To all participating in this discussion of Turangalila, I'm getting good from all this. I tried to get into Messiaen once and gave up because I can't hear colors. I'm at a point where I need his music distilled for me into a frame of reference so I can jump back into it, so I'm appreciating both the scholarly comments and the little asides.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

Manxfeeder said:


> To all participating in this discussion of Turangalila, I'm getting good from all this. I tried to get into Messiaen once and gave up because I can't hear colors. I'm at a point where I need his music distilled for me into a frame of reference so I can jump back into it, so I'm appreciating both the scholarly comments and the little asides.


Thank you so much, Manx. You are appreciated.

I think Boulez' observation about how Messiaen does not "compose" but instead "juxtaposes" really sheds light.

Messiaen's "sonic entities" are themes, but unlike themes, "...they exhibit no real organic growth as themes do. The works are constructed like a huge mosaic. This often produces a static, transcendental quality which is closer to the Oriental philosophy of 'being' than to the Western one of 'becoming'..." (from the liner notes of the Chailly/London)

This also sheds light for me on Boulez, and where his aesthetic came from. Like Varése and Messiaen, he treats sound as "blocks" or big "sonic entities" or aggregates of pitches. Like the "being" analogy above, you have to just "be" in the moment when you listen to this music, and stop listening for thematic development, and take it as it comes.


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## Vaneyes (May 11, 2010)

millionrainbows said:


> @Vaneyes & bigshot:
> 
> Nagano I might could agree with if I heard it, but I still stand by Chailly.
> 
> ...


Re bigshot's remark, I thought he was speaking specifically of the Chailly recording, and from my listening to that rec., I thought it was a good description. It's a poor sounding recording, scrambled sonics if you will, that doesn't succeed in expressing Messiaen's "chroma spectrum of colors" as you put it, and more importantly ( re Dr. Kilroy's rec. request), doesn't stack up to other recordings.

Somehow, this topic has turned into a discussion/defense of the composition, rather than a discussion of recordings. I don't care about the former. I do care about the latter. :tiphat:


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## Hausmusik (May 13, 2012)

Vaneyes said:


> Somehow, this topic has turned into a discussion/defense of the composition, rather than a discussion of recordings.


Actually, the conversation morphed more radically than that, V.; it wasn't originally about Messiaen at all!


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## Tristan (Jan 5, 2013)

So...I just realized where the Futurama character "Turanga Leela" got her name. Mind-blowing


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

Vaneyes said:


> Re bigshot's remark, I thought he was speaking specifically of the Chailly recording, and from my listening to that rec., I thought it was a good description. It's a poor sounding recording, scrambled sonics if you will, that doesn't succeed in expressing Messiaen's "chroma spectrum of colors" as you put it, and more importantly ( re Dr. Kilroy's rec. request), doesn't stack up to other recordings.
> 
> Somehow, this topic has turned into a discussion/defense of the composition, rather than a discussion of recordings. I don't care about the former. I do care about the latter. :tiphat:


Vaneyes, I don't know what you and bigshot are talking about. The Chailly sounds very clear; and The Concertgebouw in Amsterdam is known for its good recordings, especially with Chailly. The "chroma" that you speak of is all over the place, especially when the piano plays those chords with the orchestra.

I care more about your opinion than bigshot's, however, as he has long been on my "enemies list" for his distracting humor.

And how can Vaneyes and Hausmusik DARE tell me I'm off topic before the "cheese sandwich" contingent is mentioned, which includes Hausmusik. 
That's some nerve, as I see it. Manxfeeder has the correct attitude.

Have a nice "time which runs like a galloping horse!":lol:


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

Hausmusik said:


> Actually, the conversation morphed more radically than that, V.; it wasn't originally about Messiaen at all!


_It was about the density of cheese sandwiches, right?_


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## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

Tristan said:


> So...I just realized where the Futurama character "Turanga Leela" got her name. Mind-blowing


Yep, Matt Groening loves that piece. (Along with Captain Beefheart's Trout Mask Replica, so he's into music that's "out there".) I was kind of surprised to learn that as well.



Millionrainbows said:


> Messiaen's "sonic entities" are themes, but unlike themes, "...they exhibit no real organic growth as themes do. The works are constructed like a huge mosaic. This often produces a static, transcendental quality which is closer to the Oriental philosophy of 'being' than to the Western one of 'becoming'..." (from the liner notes of the Chailly/London)


Right. Messiaen really doesn't "develop" themes in the traditional sense. It's one of the reasons I think a lot of his other works work better than the Turangalila, where the vestiges of symphonic form actually shackle him to some degree. It's also one of the reasons why some people have trouble getting into Messiaen's music, I think. It comes from a completely different artistic/philosophical orientation.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

Mahlerian said:


> Yep, Matt Groening loves that piece. (Along with Captain Beefheart's Trout Mask Replica, so he's into music that's "out there".) I was kind of surprised to learn that as well.
> 
> Right. Messiaen really doesn't "develop" themes in the traditional sense. It's one of the reasons I think a lot of his other works work better than the Turangalila, where the vestiges of symphonic form actually shackle him to some degree. It's also one of the reasons why some people have trouble getting into Messiaen's music, I think. It comes from a completely different artistic/philosophical orientation.


(With sarcasm Well, I agree with that, Mahlerian, but Vaneyes and Hausmusik seem to think this is off-topic!

Anyway, sarcasm aside, I think your input is very valuable. I think Messiaen's work NEEDS more illumination, and I think everybody here would benefit from it, whether they want to admit it or not.


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## Vaneyes (May 11, 2010)

Hausmusik said:


> Actually, the conversation morphed more radically than that, V.; it wasn't originally about Messiaen at all!


True, but I think it was reasonable to expect that after many made themselves known as various experts (me included, heh heh), that q.'s to those experts would be forthcoming on this thread.

Probably, the only other option would be for each expert to start their own expert thread. That would be inconvenient in many ways, and of course stress bandwidth even further. Save the planet!


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## Vaneyes (May 11, 2010)

millionrainbows said:


> Vaneyes, I don't know what you and bigshot are talking about. The Chailly sounds very clear; and The Concertgebouw in Amsterdam is known for its good recordings, especially with Chailly. The "chroma" that you speak of is all over the place, especially when the piano plays those chords with the orchestra.
> 
> I care more about your opinion than bigshot's, however, as he has long been on my "enemies list" for his distracting humor.
> 
> ...


Thank you, and out of respect for you in my reply to Hausmusik, I held the cheese. 

I agree re ACO's many fine recordings on Decca. They have generally been a consistent product. But not this time. I'd think an impartial discerning listener should be able to hear that, but there are never any guarantees in that department. The recs. I suggested can help in the process. I'm leading, but you're not drinking. Enough said, so I move on. :tiphat:


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## realdealblues (Mar 3, 2010)

I don't have an credentials to make me an expert in anything (other than maybe a degree in Computer Engineering and that I've been playing Guitar as both a hobby and professionally for 20 years).

That said I do have what I consider to be a massive music collection. For Classical, I spend most of my time in:

Solo Piano Works (Usually Sonatas)
Piano Concertos
Symphonies

Mozart, Mahler & Beethoven are my main three composers, because I don't get tired of listening to and exploring recordings of their works over and over. I do have all of Glenn Gould's recordings (although I am not a J.S. Bach specialist by any means, I am exploring him more and more each day). I also have a good deal of Chopin recordings.

Non-Classically I've owned about every Guitar Effect Pedal and Rack Processor out there and built numerous rigs which have been used in Pink Floyd and Van Halen Tributes to mimic those kinds of tones. 

Blues, Classic Rock & 80's Hair Band Rock are my Non-Classical specialties and again I have a pretty ridiculous amount of recording in those Genres.

If anyone ever has a question in any of those areas I am more than happy to try answer them or express an opinion.


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## bigshot (Nov 22, 2011)

Why is it when Respighi uses the sound of a bird tweeting, everyone smiles and says, "What a charming little novelty!" And when Messiaen uses tweeting birds it's po faced profundity?

Honestly, if you want this sort of "color and depth" you should hear Les Baxter and Bas Sheva's "Passions". It's a million times more expressive and avant garde, even though it's "easy listening" music.


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## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

bigshot said:


> Why is it when Respighi uses the sound of a bird tweeting, everyone smiles and says, "What a charming little novelty!" And when Messiaen uses tweeting birds it's po faced profundity?
> 
> Honestly, if you want this sort of "color and depth" you should hear Les Baxter and Bas Sheva's "Passions". It's a million times more expressive and avant garde, even though it's "easy listening" music.


Because Messiaen uses the birdsong in an abstracted way, artfully transcribed and compiled, whereas Respighi simply drops in a recording for a background effect, as would be done in one of those New Age relaxation discs. It's also far more complex than the evocations of birdsong found in Beethoven's Pastoral, Wagner's Siegfried, or Mahler's 1st.

Put another way, in Respighi all that matters is the fact that we are hearing birds. There is no musical significance to what pitches or rhythms we are hearing; they are simply bird sounds used as bird sounds for pictoral effect. Messiaen takes the transcribed birdsong and colors it, manipulates it, moulds it into the fabric of a piece.

And Messiaen's avant-garde credentials are quite clear. He may have stuck with a more or less tonal framework, but his treatment of rhythm and harmony have few precedents and were a huge influence on Boulez, among others. He taught some of the most important composers of the post-WWII era, and wrote one of the first pieces of integral serialist music. He used elements of process composition, as in the opening movement of the Quartet for the End of Time, as well as extended instrumental technique.

It's a moot point anyway, because the birdsong in Turangalila isn't very prominent or important, unlike in the 50s/60s works.


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## Hausmusik (May 13, 2012)

millionrainbows said:


> And how can Vaneyes and Hausmusik DARE tell me I'm off topic before *the "cheese sandwich" contingent* is mentioned, *which includes Hausmusik*.


That's funny, because I haven't said a single word about "cheese sandwiches"--but then we know you've never been one for scrupulous accuracy or honesty.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

Hausmusik said:


> That's funny, because I haven't said a single word about "cheese sandwiches"--but then we know you've never been one for scrupulous accuracy or honesty.


_You're incorrect in your attack on me. Neither you nor Vaneyes mentioned cheese sandwiches, but you both complained about my observations on Messiaen being "off-topic." If this is the case, you both should have mentioned the earlier "cheese sandwich" off-topic. I'm reporting you for insinuating that I am dishonest...a character aspersion._


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## Crudblud (Dec 29, 2011)

I wasn't expecting my quantum cheese sandwich joke-question to gather as much momentum as it did. At most I thought it would get a joke response from peeyaj (to whom I asked the question after he said people should ask him *anything*) and we'd be done with it.


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## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

Crudblud said:


> I wasn't expecting my quantum cheese sandwich joke-question to gather as much momentum as it did. At most I thought it would get a joke response from peeyaj (to whom I asked the question after he said people should ask him *anything*) and we'd be done with it.


You might have/should have known. Grilled/toasted cheese sandwiches get a lot of play in winter. Now both you and _Hausmusik_ are going down. Write me when you get out.


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## Krummhorn (Feb 18, 2007)

We are seriously going off topic here with the back and forth bantering ... we remind members that we do have rules about posting guidelines ... part of which state to 'never get personal' ... 

If the off topic continues, the thread will be closed down.


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## bigshot (Nov 22, 2011)

Mahlerian said:


> Because Messiaen uses the birdsong in an abstracted way, artfully transcribed and compiled, whereas Respighi simply drops in a recording for a background effect, as would be done in one of those New Age relaxation discs.


OK. I understand now. Incorporating prerecorded elements in classical music is just using sound for effect, not for music.


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## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

bigshot said:


> OK. I understand now. Incorporating prerecorded elements in classical music is just using sound for effect, not for music.


Yeah. It's like those real cannons in the "1812". Should use bass drums and tam-tams in unison (hmm... is 'unison' the right word for non-tuned instruments?).


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## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

bigshot said:


> OK. I understand now. Incorporating prerecorded elements in classical music is just using sound for effect, not for music.


That is not what I said, nor what I meant.

If the prerecorded elements themselves are intrinsically part of the music, that is one thing. If the only direction is that a recording of some thing or other be used, then it is not organically part of the music in the same way.

To my knowledge, no recordings nowadays use Respighi's exact recording, right? They use other recordings, which will differ in every musical aspect: timbre, pitch, and rhythm. This indicates that the exact notes are not important. They are superimposed onto the music, not a part of it.

This type of thing can be done artfully, but it is certainly different in every way from Messiaen's practice.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

----







-----------







----------------










Mahlerian said:


> That is not what I said, nor what I meant.
> 
> If the prerecorded elements themselves are intrinsically part of the music, that is one thing. If the only direction is that a recording of some thing or other be used, then it is not organically part of the music in the same way.
> 
> ...


Mahlerian, I'm sorry that you are having to deal with bigshot's put-down of Messiaen's use of bird song in his music. He's on my "enemies list" for just this sort of "distracting put-downs disguised as flip humor."

Messiaen's two great natural inspirations were birds, and mountains. I can certainly hear the mountain influence in his great masses of sound. Messiaen only approximated the bird song in pitch and rhythm, but once one understands this, it makes the music more meaningful.


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## bigshot (Nov 22, 2011)

Mahlerian said:


> If the prerecorded elements themselves are intrinsically part of the music, that is one thing. If the only direction is that a recording of some thing or other be used, then it is not organically part of the music in the same way.
> 
> To my knowledge, no recordings nowadays use Respighi's exact recording, right?


I have a couple that do. I think I even have a copy of just the birds. I have a 78rpm Victor "batwing" record of birds in a German aviary. It was a pretty popular record. I bet that's the one.


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## bigshot (Nov 22, 2011)

millionrainbows said:


> He's on my "enemies list" for just this sort of "distracting put-downs disguised as flip humor."


You and Nixon! Gosh, to think I've lived for 53 years without an enemies list! I better get crackin' on it!


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## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

bigshot said:


> I have a couple that do.


The point still stands that different recordings of birdsong are used (not even always the same number or type of birds).


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## bigshot (Nov 22, 2011)

Then we should all stick with HIB performances (Historically Informed Birdsongs) that use the original record.


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## EddieRUKiddingVarese (Jan 8, 2013)

bigshot said:


> Then we should all stick with HIB performances (Historically Informed Birdsongs) that use the original record.


Any examples you would care to provide, that come to mind.


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## Mesa (Mar 2, 2012)

Which version of the William Tell Overture was used in A Clockwork Orange? It's credited as "A Deutsche Grammephon Recording".

I must locate the full recording, as -


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

Mesa said:


> Which version of the William Tell Overture was used in A Clockwork Orange? It's credited as "A Deutsche Grammephon Recording".
> 
> I must locate the full recording, as -


Karajan i think


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## bigshot (Nov 22, 2011)

It's Gazza Ladra Overture, not William Tell.


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## ptr (Jan 22, 2013)

Mahlerian said:


> To my knowledge, no recordings nowadays use Respighi's exact recording, right? They use other recordings, which will differ in every musical aspect: timbre, pitch, and rhythm. This indicates that the exact notes are not important. They are superimposed onto the music, not a part of it.


I heard a concert in 2004 were Marcello Viotti conducted The Gothenburg Symphony in Respighi's "Pini di Roma" where they used a tape transfer of Respighi's original Bird song 78's... Great effect, made the music feel much more special then hearing it with out (which I have done several times at concert..)

/ptr


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## EddieRUKiddingVarese (Jan 8, 2013)

What is atonal music?- anyone game! to be the expert....


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## Gilher (Feb 16, 2013)

Hello!!

I would like to know the name and the composer of this song,





 (seg 1:55)

thenk you!


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## Weston (Jul 11, 2008)

Gilher said:


> Hello!!
> 
> I would like to know the name and the composer of this song,
> 
> ...


Johann Sebastian Bach, Orchestral Suite No. 3 in D, Air on a G String.


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## Weston (Jul 11, 2008)

Hey, folks! What is it that drives the price of CD's? I was looking for Charles Tournemire's Symphony No. 6. Apparently there are hardly any recordings of it. The one or two rare CDs are _way _up in a price range to give me pause (or even paws). Are people just sitting on them in the hopes someone would shell out a week's worth of grocery money for them? Who would? Why let them just sit? Why not make them available for electronic download? There are plenty of other composers in the sea for me to explore. They can just keep their precious CDs.

http://www.amazon.com/Charles-Tournemire-Symphonie-No-6/dp/B00005S7X1/ref=sr_1_33?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1361077446&sr=1-33&keywords=Tournemire


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## ptr (Jan 22, 2013)

Weston said:


> http://www.amazon.com/Charles-Tournemire-Symphonie-No-6/dp/B00005S7X1/ref=sr_1_33?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1361077446&sr=1-33&keywords=Tournemire


I dunno why anyone would pay that kind of money when You can buy a new one from French Amazon for $10 + freight..

Tournemire Symphony No 6

/ptr


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## Huilunsoittaja (Apr 6, 2010)

Everyone who likes Russian music ought to join my TalkClassical Group! It's now my little blog for Russian music discoveries. I'll give recommendations of things there, and I can answer specific questions.


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## Weston (Jul 11, 2008)

^How do Groups work? Do they provide access to forums not normally available to non-group members, or are they some kind of IM discussion. I see several groups I would be interested in -- as if I needed more things to be interested in.


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## kv466 (May 18, 2011)

I guess my specialty here would be Mozart, Glenn Gould, Earl Wild and a little bit of this and a little bit of that.


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## Weston (Jul 11, 2008)

I don't feel the need to start a new thread for this question.

A composer conversation podcast pointed me to investigate *spectral music*, particularly that of *Tristan Murail*. When I listen to Marail's *Gondwana* it reminds me a lot of some Ligeti pieces. Yet Ligeti is not mentioned in the Wikipedia article about sprectalism.

I'm having a little trouble wrapping my head around spectral music being mostly about a constantly evolving timbre. Much as I am fascinated by timbre-- I'm a synthesizer freak after all -- surely there must be more. I admit there are some very strange timbres achieved in Gondwana with conventional instruments, almost a choir sound in places. Is timbre enough to base an entire composition on? Also I'd like to know if spectral music is still considered a newish compositional device, or is it old hat?


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## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

Weston said:


> Is timbre enough to base an entire composition on? Also I'd like to know if spectral music is still considered a newish compositional device, or is it old hat?


Spectralism, as I understand it, is based not only on timbre, but also on a detailed analysis of the harmonic spectrum of each sound, which has only been possible with modern computer technology. Thus microtones and non-traditional playing methods factor heavily into the spectralist approach. Like minimalism or (integral) serialism, the initial burst exhausted itself rather quickly and gave rise to hybrid methods that integrate the new techniques with the old.

But timbre has been an important aspect of composition since the beginning of the 20th century, in Impressionism and Expressionism (see Klangfarbenmelodie, and in particular that movement of Schoenberg's 5 Orchestral Pieces based on a single chord).


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## Weston (Jul 11, 2008)

I'll have to re-endure The 5 Orchestral Pieces and listen for timbre in that case. I definitely want to hear some more of Murail.


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## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

Weston said:


> I'll have to re-endure The 5 Orchestral Pieces and listen for timbre in that case. I definitely want to hear some more of Murail.


If you approach it like that, you're sure to hate it.

The movement in question is No. 3, Farben (Colors), but listen for timbre the entire way through, if possible. Schoenberg had a great command of orchestral color. Far better than Berg did.


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## EddieRUKiddingVarese (Jan 8, 2013)

Can anyone give me advise on this stuff - should I buy one??????? Feng Shui crystals for Hi Fi, Feng Shui seems cool but not sure about for Hi Fi...............

MACHINA DYNAMICAAdvanced Audio ConceptsWe Do Artificial Atoms Right

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Machina Dynamica - Advanced Audio Concepts


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