# Fidelio: Poorly Written For Voices??????



## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Fidelio is on of my favorite operas. I have heard Beethoven was not kind to singers. Are any of you knowledgeable enough to give some reasons why.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

HIs _9th Symphony_ and _Missa Solemnis_ can be strenuous; there's a lot of hammering away at high notes, as opposed to floating out long lovely cantilenas. I sang as a tenor in the _Missa_ years ago, and you definitely have to pace yourself. I've never heard that _Fidelio_ is exceptionally hard to sing, but some of the more vehement moments (like the climax of Florestan's aria) sound tough, at least as sung by most tenors.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Woodduck said:


> HIs _9th Symphony_ and _Missa Solemnis_ can be strenuous; there's a lot of hammering away at high notes, as opposed to floating out long lovely cantilenas. I sang as a tenor in the _Missa_ years ago, and you definitely have to pace yourself. I've never heard that _Fidelio_ is exceptionally hard to sing, but some of the more vehement moments (like the climax of Florestan's aria) sound tough, at least as sung by most tenors.


I could be mistaken,may have heard it about the Missa Solemnis, and projected it onto Fidelio. I had heard it about Missa Solemnis


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Seattleoperafan said:


> I could be mistaken,may have heard it about the Missa Solemnis, and projected it onto Fidelio. I had heard it about Missa Solemnis


The Missa is well-written for voice if you're a listener. Maybe not if you're a soprano!


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## gardibolt (May 22, 2015)

The only thing of Beethoven's I've sung is the Ninth Symphony and the parts for the basses in the chorus is brutally high---it really should be a tenor part as far as I'm concerned. I practiced for months to be able to hit those notes with anything resembling certainty.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

gardibolt said:


> The only thing of Beethoven's I've sung is the Ninth Symphony and the parts for the basses in the chorus is brutally high---it really should be a tenor part as far as I'm concerned. I practiced for months to be able to hit those notes with anything resembling certainty.


The Missa Solemnis is similar. Beethoven didn't give a **** about Franz Clement's fiddle or about our vocal chords.


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## Bonetan (Dec 22, 2016)

Beethoven was accustomed to writing music for instruments, so he wrote the music for the singers in Fidelio as if they were additional instruments rather than writing specifically for the voice. As a result it has proven difficult for singers to sing a lot of the material.


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## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

from what I've heard about him, Beethoven comes across as having thought singers were somewhat arrogant and entitled. like "we're here to serve the music, stop complaining", or something to that effect.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Bonetan said:


> Beethoven was accustomed to writing music for instruments, so he wrote the music for the singers in Fidelio as if they were additional instruments rather than writing specifically for the voice. As a result it has proven difficult for singers to sing a lot of the material.


Beethoven wrote plenty of good vocal music, including cantatas, oratorios, arias, and songs.The arias in _Fidelio_ don't sound like instrumental writing to me, though I can't attest to their difficulty. Can you, really?


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## Bonetan (Dec 22, 2016)

Woodduck said:


> Beethoven wrote plenty of good vocal music, including cantatas, oratorios, arias, and songs.The arias in _Fidelio_ don't sound like instrumental writing to me, though I can't attest to their difficulty. Can you, really?


Yes, I've studied Pizarro & Fernando, my teacher sang the title role throughout Germany, & one of my coaches coached Fidelio at many of the major German houses.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Bonetan said:


> Yes, I've studied Pizarro & Fernando, my teacher sang the title role throughout Germany, & one of my coaches coached Fidelio at many of the major German houses.


My real question is: what is "instrumental" about Fidelio's vocal writing? I was a singer too in my younger years, and though I never sang opera I've spent a lifetime listening to it. Is Beethoven's writing in this opera in any sense "poor," as the OP asks, and are the arias really harder than any number of Mozart's, Bellini's, Verdi's, or Wagner's? I don't hear it.


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## Bonetan (Dec 22, 2016)

Woodduck said:


> My real question is: what is "instrumental" about Fidelio's vocal writing? I was a singer too in my younger years, and though I never sang opera I've spent a lifetime listening to it. Is Beethoven's writing in this opera in any sense "poor," as the OP asks, and are the arias really harder than any number of Mozart's, Bellini's, Verdi's, or Wagner's? I don't hear it.


You know what, I'll ask my teacher & coach that question. They can provide a much better answer than I ever could...I've never heard the writing for singers in Fidelio called poor, just different. I have heard that Florestan's aria is very difficult. I'll get you a better answer tomorrow Woodduck...I was actually in my Fidelio score when I discovered this topic lol


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

BalalaikaBoy said:


> from what I've heard about him, Beethoven comes across as having thought singers were somewhat arrogant and entitled. like "we're here to serve the music, stop complaining", or something to that effect.


I did read something similar .


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## gardibolt (May 22, 2015)

This contempt for famous singers goes back to Beethoven's early days. When he was a teen he was the organist for the Elector in Bonn. During Holy Week, it was traditional there to have the Gregorian Chant of the Lamentations of Jeremiah performed on Thursday, Friday and Saturday, with accompaniment on the piano since during that period the organ was not permitted to be used. One year, a famous tenor was engaged to perform the Lamentations with Beethoven accompanying. Feeling mischievous, Ludwig asked whether he could try to throw the tenor off. The singer laughed at him and said, "Do your best." When the performance began on Thursday, Beethoven quickly launched into a series of bizarre harmonic experiments that almost immediately sent the tenor into a limbo of confusion. Enraged, the singer complained to the Elector, who gently chided Beethoven and told him not to do it again, while still finding the episode amusing.

Beethoven's notes from this episode are still extant, and we've been trying for some years to put them into a performable state that might recreate this anecdote.


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## Bonetan (Dec 22, 2016)

Woodduck, I got some answers for you. 

From the coach: 

"Beethoven never understood the human voice as an instrument, perhaps because he was deaf. He admitted himself that he could compose whatever he wanted for the orchestra, knowing that the instrumentalists could handle it, but when he wrote for singers, he always had to ask himself, “Can that be sung?” You might say that the voice parts in Fidelio all seem like they were written for wind instruments (brass or woodwind) rather than for the human voice. They are ungainly to sing. Singing Händel or Mozart is perhaps the best training for Beethoven – but the heroic roles of Leonore, Florestan and Pizarro require more dramatic weight and heft than is required by the earlier composers.

Per the teacher/former singer:

"It's not difficult. But it takes a Mozart technique with dramatic weight to sing the four principals.


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## kyf (Feb 1, 2017)

Don't you think that Fidelio sounds more like choral music than opera?


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

kyf said:


> Don't you think that Fidelio sounds more like choral music than opera?


I don't know, but I just read somewhere that Fidelio is musically more symphonic than operatic.


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## kyf (Feb 1, 2017)

Bonetan said:


> From the coach: "...the voice parts in Fidelio all seem like they were written for wind instruments (brass or woodwind) rather than for the human voice..."





Florestan said:


> I don't know, but I just read somewhere that Fidelio is musically more symphonic than operatic.


Fantastic! It's another "Choral Symphony."


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

kyf said:


> Don't you think that Fidelio sounds more like choral music than opera?


In short: No, not the least.


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## Eddy Rodgers K (Feb 12, 2017)

Florestan said:


> I don't know, but I just read somewhere that Fidelio is musically more symphonic than operatic.


In terms of structure?


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

Eddy Rodgers K said:


> In terms of structure?


You had to ask. I am musical ignorant as far as structure and all that sort of stuff. But I will let the author speak for himself:



> For Beethoven to write a successful opera, I believe, he had to approach it as if it were a symphony. And there is no major opera quite that is quite so symphonic as Fidelio.


Here is the source article: "Fidelio:" The Problem of Beethoven and his Only Opera - Lesson 2


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## Bill H. (Dec 23, 2010)

Here's another good essay on Fidelio, along with some recording reviews:

http://www.classicalnotes.net/classics2/fidelio.html

A current project has been to transfer the RCA LP set that I've had for years of the Toscanini/NBC Symphony broadcasts of 1944, which has led me to do some reading up on that famous performance. The fact that these two broadcasts pretty much deleted all of the dialogue (save for the Act II accompanied dialogue in the penultimate scene) perhaps serves to further emphasize the music's primacy over the plot.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

Bill H. said:


> Here's another good essay on Fidelio, along with some recording reviews:
> 
> http://www.classicalnotes.net/classics2/fidelio.html
> 
> A current project has been to transfer the RCA LP set that I've had for years of the Toscanini/NBC Symphony broadcasts of 1944, which has led me to do some reading up on that famous performance. The fact that these two broadcasts pretty much deleted all of the dialogue (save for the Act II accompanied dialogue in the penultimate scene) perhaps serves to further emphasize the music's primacy over the plot.


There is a Waltraud Meier / Placido Domingo Fidelio with no dialogue except for that which is embedded in the gravedigging duet and in the penultimate scene. I rather prefer my dialogue though.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Florestan said:


> You had to ask. I am musical ignorant as far as structure and all that sort of stuff. But I will let the author speak for himself:
> 
> _For Beethoven to write a successful opera, I believe, he had to approach it as if it were a symphony. And there is no major opera quite that is quite so symphonic as Fidelio.
> _
> ...


_Fidelio_ is an opera (a _Singspiel,_ to be exact), and is operatic in every respect. Its use of discrete musical forms doesn't make it "symphonic," and its vocal writing is not "instrumental" merely because it lacks the graceful cantilenas of bel canto. And although it may not have the best-constructed libretto, Beethoven succeeded remarkably well in making the proverbial silk purse out of a sow's ear. That required a pretty fair dramatic sense. An imperfect masterpiece, but still a masterpiece, which in a good performance makes a powerful effect. Wagner, for one, considered it one of the greatest influences upon his own life. But of course Wagner's operas have been called "symphonic" too, and his vocal writing difficult and bad for the voice! So there you go.


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## Bonetan (Dec 22, 2016)

Woodduck said:


> But of course Wagner's operas have been called "symphonic" too, and his vocal writing difficult and bad for the voice! So there you go.


I would have liked to disagree that Wagner is bad for the voice, but then I remember the music he wrote for Telramund, a voice killer if there ever was one, & I digress lol


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Beethoven was not a natural for writing opera. He lacked the easy gift of Mozart. But he had immense genius and that's what makes Fidelio unique among operas. Is it a great opera? Perhaps not. Is it a great work of art? Certainly!


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## Reichstag aus LICHT (Oct 25, 2010)

DavidA said:


> Is it a great opera? Perhaps not. Is it a great work of art? Certainly!


That's a great way of putting it, David.


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## Faustian (Feb 8, 2015)

Heh. If it is an opera (it is), that's a great work of art (it is), I think that qualifies it as a great opera. Is that so shameful to say? :lol:

It's certainly one of my favorites.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Faustian said:


> Heh. If it is an opera (it is), that's a great work of art (it is), I think that qualifies it as a great opera. It's certainly one of my favorites.


Indeed. I see David's distinction, but would point out that greatness is not incompatible with imperfection or even awkwardness. Some works have a depth and power that transcends imperfection of form or lack of sheer fluency. Sardou's _Tosca_ is a better-constructed play than _King Lear,_ and Puccini's _Tosca_ a more perfect opera than _Gotterdammerung_ - maybe even than _Tristan._ But how important is "perfection"? It is certainly not a necessary condition of greatness, and I suspect that the reach for profundity often precludes its attainment.


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## amfortas (Jun 15, 2011)

DavidA said:


> Is it a great opera? Perhaps not. Is it a great work of art? Certainly!





Woodduck said:


> Some works have a depth and power that transcends imperfection of form or lack of sheer fluency. Sardou's _Tosca_ is a better-constructed play than _King Lear._


I'm reminded of a comment by the famous early-twentieth-century critic, A.C. Bradley: "_King Lear_ seems to me Shakespeare's greatest achievement, but it seems to me _not_ his best play."


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## Sonata (Aug 7, 2010)

I never saw Fidelio as a choral work or symphonic....sounds perfectly operatic to me. I don't listen to it often but it has a warm and fuzzy place in my brain, it was the third full opera that I got to know, after Puccini's Suor Angelica and Madama Butterfly


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## Eddy Rodgers K (Feb 12, 2017)

In my very amateurish opinion Fidelio sounds a lot like Mozart's operatic style... which I suppose is because they're all Classical-era operas. I watched it yesterday for the first time.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Well in the first two pages on Amazon, for Fidelio, I counted 20 complete performances of it.

Apparently, a lot of folks are singing it or they wouldn't be recording it.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

hpowders said:


> Well in the first two pages on Amazon, for Fidelio, I counted 20 complete performances of it.
> 
> *Apparently, a lot of folks are singing it or they wouldn't be recording it.*


And apparently a lot of folks are buying it or they wouldn't be recording it. For example, I have at least two dozen Fidelio sets and just ordered another yesterday.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Sonata said:


> I never saw Fidelio as a choral work or symphonic....sounds perfectly operatic to me. I don't listen to it often but it has a warm and fuzzy place in my brain, it was the third full opera that I got to know, after Puccini's Suor Angelica and Madama Butterfly







Never to be forgotten


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

Pugg said:


> Never to be forgotten


I was trying to avoid this because the production is so bad, but the singing is so wonderful that I may have to get it anyway. What a wonderful voice!


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Florestan said:


> I was trying to avoid this because the production is so bad, but the singing is so wonderful that I may have to get it anyway. What a wonderful voice!


You see, that's how we help each other.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

Pugg said:


> You see, that's how we help each other.


Yes, but I just found the whole thing on You Tube and even though it is rather weird, there was much I liked, but when i checked out the ending and saw Florestan fall down dead, I said, no, this is not for me. What a horrible way to end it. But I like it better than the Levine Fidelio DVD which I bought and quickly got rid of (was rather corny IMO).


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Florestan said:


> Yes, but I just found the whole thing on You Tube and even though it is rather weird, there was much I liked, but when i checked out the ending and saw Florestan fall down dead, I said, no, this is not for me. What a horrible way to end it. But I like it better than the Levine Fidelio DVD which I bought and quickly got rid of (was rather corny IMO).


But I love Karita Mattila.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

Pugg said:


> But I love Karita Mattila.


No doubt. A lot of good singers in the Levine Fidelio. Several the same as in the Levine Meistersinger. Well, if the Kaufmann one comes up at a low enough price, I might go for it.


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## gardibolt (May 22, 2015)

Florestan said:


> Yes, but I just found the whole thing on You Tube and even though it is rather weird, there was much I liked, but when i checked out the ending and saw Florestan fall down dead, I said, no, this is not for me. What a horrible way to end it.


Really??? How absurd to do that. Nice way for them to completely miss the point of the opera.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

gardibolt said:


> Really??? How absurd to do that. Nice way for them to completely miss the point of the opera.


For what it's worth, here is the full opera:


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## Bill H. (Dec 23, 2010)

I confess I haven't seen much of these Fidelio vides/DVDs, but for good old audio-only, you can do worse than this:

https://www.pristineclassical.com/products/paco117

Pristine also has the Toscanini 1944 broadcast, and the 1953 Furtwängler from Vienna.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Florestan said:


> Yes, but I just found the whole thing on You Tube and even though it is rather weird, there was much I liked, but when i checked out the ending and saw Florestan fall down dead, I said, no, this is not for me. What a horrible way to end it. But I like it better than the Levine Fidelio DVD which I bought and quickly got rid of (was rather corny IMO).


The producer apparently could not read what is perfectly obvious to the rest of us in the libretto. What a moron! There was another production at the Proms with Barenboim where the dialogue was replaced by some nonsense which completely missed the point of what Beethoven was trying to say. Where do they get these hacks from?


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

DavidA said:


> The producer apparently could not read what is perfectly obvious to the rest of us in the libretto. What a moron! There was another production at the Proms with Barenboim where the dialogue was replaced by some nonsense which completely missed the point of what Beethoven was trying to say. Where do they get these hacks from?


From their twisted minds.


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## jflatter (Mar 31, 2010)

I adore virtually all of Beethoven's work. However, I do wonder if it would have survived in the repertory if it had been composed by a lesser known name? It is a problematic work and one I would never go to the ends of the earth to hear, unlike some of his other work.


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## Sloe (May 9, 2014)

jflatter said:


> I adore virtually all of Beethoven's work. However, I do wonder if it would have survived in the repertory if it had been composed by a lesser known name? It is a problematic work and one I would never go to the ends of the earth to hear, unlike some of his other work.


I think most operas survives in the repertoire more or less because they have a famous name attached to it. Then there are operas by famous composers that are more or less obscure even if the composer is famous.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Sloe said:


> *I think most operas survives in the repertoire more or less because they have a famous name attached to it.* Then there are operas by famous composers that are more or less obscure even if the composer is famous.


I certainly don't think this is true of Carmen. It was the opera that made Bizet famous.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Sloe said:


> I think most operas survives in the repertoire more or less because they have a famous name attached to it. Then there are operas by famous composers that are more or less obscure even if the composer is famous.


I think most famous names survive because they have fine operas - and symphonies, etc. - attached to them.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Well said Wood, so is DavidA answer by the way.


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## Sloe (May 9, 2014)

Woodduck said:


> I think most famous names survive because they have fine operas - and symphonies, etc. - attached to them.


I think it is symbiotic.


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## Bonetan (Dec 22, 2016)

I read this today & thought about this thread. A quote from an article on operafocus.com about baritone Terje Stensvold:

How do you find singing Beethoven? 
It’s hard. It’s like he wrote the vocal parts like instrumental parts. Don Pizarro isn’t a big part but what he sings is very… instrumental, like a tuba or something. For roles like this you can’t use pretty lyric voices because it’ll kill them. I’ve often had to step in for singers that shouldn’t have been offered the role in the first place. I can’t say Pizarro is my favourite role by a long stretch, because he’s so one-dimensional. He’s just evil. Beethoven’s music is fantastic, but the singers are instruments.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Bonetan said:


> I read this today & thought about this thread. A quote from an article on operafocus.com about baritone Terje Stensvold:
> 
> How do you find singing Beethoven?
> It's hard. It's like he wrote the vocal parts like instrumental parts. Don Pizarro isn't a big part but what he sings is very… instrumental, like a tuba or something. For roles like this you can't use pretty lyric voices because it'll kill them. I've often had to step in for singers that shouldn't have been offered the role in the first place. I can't say Pizarro is my favourite role by a long stretch, because he's so one-dimensional. He's just evil. Beethoven's music is fantastic, but the singers are instruments.


Perhaps that's why he wroth only one, it works in his religious works though.


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