# Recommend me a great Brahms 1?



## Steve Wright (Mar 13, 2015)

It's taken me the longest to love of his four symphonies, but I am now hooked on Brahms 1. And I'm looking for a new version - specifically, one with a really powerful first movement, where those timpani and strings are at their most intense and foreboding.

I have Dohnanyi, Wand, Levine CSO, Klemperer (all terrific), Karajan 1980s and Sanderling (both fine), but wondering if there is an ur-Brahms 1 out there, with terrific power through that first movement.

Solti? Furtwangler? Karajan 1960s? Giulini/LAPO? Bohm? A N Other? What's your favourite and/or most magisterial Brahms 1?
Thanks!


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## Triplets (Sep 4, 2014)

Steve Wright said:


> It's taken me the longest to love of his four symphonies, but I am now hooked on Brahms 1. And I'm looking for a new version - specifically, one with a really powerful first movement, where those timpani and strings are at their most intense and foreboding.
> 
> I have Dohnanyi, Wand, Levine CSO, Klemperer (all terrific), Karajan 1980s and Sanderling (both fine), but wondering if there is an ur-Brahms 1 out there, with terrific power through that first movement.
> 
> ...


I think you have some of the best and most powerful ever recorded. The Klemperer was revelatory in it's day and still is overwhelming. Sanderling is the best cycle that I have ever heard. Levine is great Furtwangler is special, I would investigate that. Szell/Cleveland is damn good and has been remastered at 20 bit, and wouldn't it be nice if Sony could find the time to do that with the rest of the Szell cycle. Karajan and Solti have their fans but are third rank, IMO. 
Two dark horses-Janowski on Pentatone and Manze on cpo, both in SACD and surround formats. The Janowski is a fine straightforward effort in amazing sound, with a wonderful Orchestra (Pittsburgh). Manze is more the HIPP approach (somewhat oxymoronic when applied to a Composer who almost lived into the 20th Century) with very swift tempos and worth exploring.
Honestly, though, the ones you have ought to do it.


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## Marsilius (Jun 13, 2015)

Another vote for Szell/Cleveland here.


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## shadowdancer (Mar 31, 2014)

Toscanini with the Philharmonia Orchestra
Recorded in 1952


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## Orfeo (Nov 14, 2013)

*Istvan Kertesz*' Decca recording with the Vienna Philharmonic (VPO) is a pretty strong contender (given that this Symphony is not my favorite of the Brahms symphonies). *Bernstein's* DG recording with the VPO is likewise strong (powerfully conceived, if grander than many on record).


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## Stirling (Nov 18, 2015)

Norrington, Abbado, Haitink


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Steve Wright said:


> It's taken me the longest to love of his four symphonies, but I am now hooked on Brahms 1. And I'm looking for a new version - specifically, one with a really powerful first movement, where those timpani and strings are at their most intense and foreboding.
> 
> I have Dohnanyi, Wand, Levine CSO, Klemperer (all terrific), Karajan 1980s and Sanderling (both fine), but wondering if there is an ur-Brahms 1 out there, with terrific power through that first movement.
> 
> ...


Van Beinum
Furtwangler 1951
Scherchen
Giulini BBC Legends (LA good too)
Harnoncourt
Barbirolli VPO

Mengelberg, Mravinsky, Stokowski/Hollywood Bowl and Rosbaud are maybe a notch or two below the above -- but maybe not.


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## MagneticGhost (Apr 7, 2013)

Dorati on Mercury Living Presence. Heard it recently and it was the best I'd ever heard.


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

Steve Wright said:


> Solti? Furtwangler? Karajan 1960s? Giulini/LAPO? Bohm? A N Other? What's your favourite and/or most magisterial Brahms 1?
> Thanks!
> View attachment 82051


I remember attending a performance of the Brahms 1st with Giulini & the LAPO and if the recording is anything like the concert, then go for it!


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## dieter (Feb 26, 2016)

Steve Wright said:


> It's taken me the longest to love of his four symphonies, but I am now hooked on Brahms 1. And I'm looking for a new version - specifically, one with a really powerful first movement, where those timpani and strings are at their most intense and foreboding.
> 
> I have Dohnanyi, Wand, Levine CSO, Klemperer (all terrific), Karajan 1980s and Sanderling (both fine), but wondering if there is an ur-Brahms 1 out there, with terrific power through that first movement.
> 
> ...


The Furtwangler NDR recording. Wow.


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## dsphipps100 (Jan 10, 2016)

So you can just make up your own mind, here is the 1st mvt from the excellent Abbado-Berlin recording...

View attachment 82059


...and then here is the equally excellent (to my ears) Solti-Chicago recording of the same 1st mvt.

View attachment 82060


I would point out that Solti-Chicago takes the 1st-mvt repeat, where the Abbado does not.


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## Guest (Mar 3, 2016)

Tell you what, do what Brahms himself suggested (about going to an opera), get the score and "hear" your own ideal performance. Innit.


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## dsphipps100 (Jan 10, 2016)

TalkingHead said:


> Tell you what, do what Brahms himself suggested (about going to an opera), get the score and "hear" your own ideal performance. Innit.


That worked for Brahms until a friend of his dragged him into the Budapest Opera where an unknown conductor named Gustav Mahler was conducting Mozart's Don Giovanni. Brahms gruffly said he would take a nap during the performance, to which his friend knowingly agreed. Then, during the performance, unable to sleep during the most vibrant Giovanni performance he had ever heard, Brahms grew increasingly enthusiastic, until he was finally sitting at the edge of the box's seating, exclaiming what a superb job Mahler was doing of Don Giovanni.


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## MarkW (Feb 16, 2015)

It's probably no longer available, but the Leinsdorf/BSO ca. 1965 version has much of what you're looking for., Strings with a real bite to them.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

MagneticGhost said:


> Dorati on Mercury Living Presence. Heard it recently and it was the best I'd ever heard.


Perhaps you are right, Haintink does a good job also.:tiphat:


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Furtwangler: epic, primal, organic, demonic, sublime.


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## Steve Wright (Mar 13, 2015)

Triplets said:


> I think you have some of the best and most powerful ever recorded. The Klemperer was revelatory in it's day and still is overwhelming. Sanderling is the best cycle that I have ever heard. Levine is great Furtwangler is special, I would investigate that. Szell/Cleveland is damn good and has been remastered at 20 bit, and wouldn't it be nice if Sony could find the time to do that with the rest of the Szell cycle. Karajan and Solti have their fans but are third rank, IMO.
> Two dark horses-Janowski on Pentatone and Manze on cpo, both in SACD and surround formats. The Janowski is a fine straightforward effort in amazing sound, with a wonderful Orchestra (Pittsburgh). Manze is more the HIPP approach (somewhat oxymoronic when applied to a Composer who almost lived into the 20th Century) with very swift tempos and worth exploring.
> Honestly, though, the ones you have ought to do it.


Very informative, thanks! And you're right, I do have some good ones. Levine has real bite, Klemperer real might, and Dohnanyi just seems very well-judged throughout. I dunno, I guess I am trying to find a first movement like the one I heard in my head - where the timps really thunder, and where those downward string figures separated by an octave (sorry, I don't have the terminology) really shudder...
I agree Sanderling's is a fine cycle, but his First (or the opening movement of same) might be my least favourite from it. 2 and 3 are particularly good, but 1... I don't know, I've read the cycle described as 'tasteful' (faint praise?) and maybe that approach suits the lyrical 2 and 3 a tad better than the granitic, dramatic First? (again, I'm aware these comments mostly refer to the opening movement!)


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## Steve Wright (Mar 13, 2015)

MagneticGhost said:


> Dorati on Mercury Living Presence. Heard it recently and it was the best I'd ever heard.


I'd quite like to try his Brahms cycle, as he's very fine in Dvorak and I can imagine that 1, in particular, suits Dorati's dramatic approach. I have read that the sound quality of that cycle isn't amazing... what did you think? Not a problem, I guess?


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## Steve Wright (Mar 13, 2015)

Woodduck said:


> Furtwangler: epic, primal, organic, demonic, sublime.


Great. There's a bewildering array of Brahms/Furtwangler out there... any particular recommendations? NDR the one to hear?


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## jegreenwood (Dec 25, 2015)

Szell, Abbado and Klemperer are my favorites.

Sound quality is always an issue with Szell. I have a Japanese mastering, which is reasonably good. I don't know whether other Sony releases are using it. In my experience it's hit or miss (and the information on the labels is not reliable).*

*I bought  this "24 Bit-Remastering" of Szell's Beethoven, which was identical to my early 90's discs.


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## Steve Wright (Mar 13, 2015)

Thoughts on the Chailly / GOL cycle? What I have heard has impressed me with its crispness and clarity - yes, and drama when required...


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## Olias (Nov 18, 2010)

For an alternate take on all four symphonies try Sir Charles Mackerras and the Scottish Chamber Orchestra. He pairs down the string instrumentation to what Brahms actually used at the premiere of each work. The result is a much more nuanced recording with amazing clarity and allows the listener to hear things that in other recordings are usually swamped in a sea of strings. For the record, I like lots of strings but this is a recording that will have the listener hear the works in a totally different and more historically accurate way.


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## jegreenwood (Dec 25, 2015)

Steve Wright said:


> Thoughts on the Chailly / GOL cycle? What I have heard has impressed me with its crispness and clarity - yes, and drama when required...


Just don't buy the Blu-Ray Audio version. My first and only Amazon review was for that product.


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## jegreenwood (Dec 25, 2015)

Olias said:


> For an alternate take on all four symphonies try Sir Charles Mackerras and the Scottish Chamber Orchestra. He pairs down the string instrumentation to what Brahms actually used at the premiere of each work. The result is a much more nuanced recording with amazing clarity and allows the listener to hear things that in other recordings are usually swamped in a sea of strings. For the record, I like lots of strings but this is a recording that will have the listener hear the works in a totally different and more historically accurate way.


I too enjoy the Mackerras as a change of pace.


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## Animal the Drummer (Nov 14, 2015)

Karajan for me and yes, the one from the 60s. It brings out the sheer heft of the piece like no other recording I've heard, while giving the gentler moments their full due as well, and the Berlin Phil is on tiptop form for him.


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## Klassic (Dec 19, 2015)

I'm glad this thread came up because I don't even know who did the recording I have. I burned a copy from the library years ago and never wrote down the conductor's name. Sounds good to me, just don't know who the hell did it.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

OP: The best Brahms 1 I've ever heard is the recording by the Boston Symphony Orchestra conducted by Charles Munch. 
Terrific, refreshing non-digital sound too.


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## MarkW (Feb 16, 2015)

hpowders said:


> OP: The best Brahms 1 I've ever heard is the recording by the Boston Symphony Orchestra conducted by Charles Munch.
> Terrific, refreshing non-digital sound too.


I guess I should give it a try. By the time I came along, he'd passed the orchestra along to Leinsdorf -- whose 1st and 4th are good, but 2nd and 3rd not good at all.


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## Steve Wright (Mar 13, 2015)

hpowders said:


> OP: The best Brahms 1 I've ever heard is the recording by the Boston Symphony Orchestra conducted by Charles Munch.
> Terrific, refreshing non-digital sound too.


Good tip, thank you - I can really imagine him doing a great, exciting Brahms 1. I love his Schubert 9 with that orchestra.


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## dieter (Feb 26, 2016)

Steve Wright said:


> I'd quite like to try his Brahms cycle, as he's very fine in Dvorak and I can imagine that 1, in particular, suits Dorati's dramatic approach. I have read that the sound quality of that cycle isn't amazing... what did you think? Not a problem, I guess?


The second was my introduction to Brahms symphonies. I recall being amazed that the main theme of the first movement sounded so similar to what we call in Germany the Brahms cradle song.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Steve Wright said:


> Good tip, thank you - I can really imagine him doing a great, exciting Brahms 1. I love his Schubert 9 with that orchestra.


 You are very welcome, Steve!

Their Brahms 4 is also the best I've ever heard.

And of course Munch/BSO were great Berlioz interpreters. Their Saint-Saens Organ Symphony is unsurpassed.


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## dieter (Feb 26, 2016)

jegreenwood said:


> Szell, Abbado and Klemperer are my favorites.
> 
> Sound quality is always an issue with Szell. I have a Japanese mastering, which is reasonably good. I don't know whether other Sony releases are using it. In my experience it's hit or miss (and the information on the labels is not reliable).*
> 
> *I bought  this "24 Bit-Remastering" of Szell's Beethoven, which was identical to my early 90's discs.


It sounds a bit too 'modern' for me, you know, clipped, fast phrasing, like they played it in Brahms's day, fer crissake. Thus far I'm not impressed. Much more impressed by the Barbirolli VPO I acquired recently. And a Schmidt Isserstedt cycle I picked up for a song recently.


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## jegreenwood (Dec 25, 2015)

dieter said:


> It sounds a bit too 'modern' for me, you know, clipped, fast phrasing, like they played it in Brahms's day, fer crissake. Thus far I'm not impressed. Much more impressed by the Barbirolli VPO I acquired recently. And a Schmidt Isserstedt cycle I picked up for a song recently.


For me the Brahms symphonies may be open to a wider variety of interpretation than Beethoven. In addition to Szell, Abbado, Klemperer and Mackerras, I also have Walter, Toscanini (NBC), Masur (SACD) and Von Karajan (70's) plus various individual recordings. I am not sold on the Von Karajan and haven't spent much time with the Masur but the others all have qualities I would not like to give up.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

No love for Boult? His cycle was very well thought of in its day.


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## Steve Wright (Mar 13, 2015)

This will probably scare some of you off (or not?), but I was listening to a lot of Celibidache on YouTube yesterday, and was very taken with his Brahms 1, 3 and 4 (didn't get on to 2). Very atmospheric readings, in which - as someone else put it better than I am about to - you hear not just the notes but the spaces around them...


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## Animal the Drummer (Nov 14, 2015)

GregMitchell said:


> No love for Boult? His cycle was very well thought of in its day.


Plenty from me - I very much agree with that/your view of those excellent versions. Another set along similar lines is James Loughran's with the Halle and either set would be well in the running for my favourite versions of nos.2-4. For no.1, though, nothing can shake my loyalty to HvK's 60s recording.


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## Steve Wright (Mar 13, 2015)

GregMitchell said:


> No love for Boult? His cycle was very well thought of in its day.


Yes, I have heard very good things about Boult and would like to hear his Brahms (I like his Vaughan Williams a lot - not sure how relevant that is).
His Brahms can be had as part of a super-cheap 'From Bach to Wagner' box set that looks tempting.


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## ObscurePlayer (Oct 29, 2013)

I'll mention two that haven't gotten much attention thus far. First, Solti: do listen to the clip provided by dsphipps100 above. In a symphony with so many accents and emphatic rhythms, his aggressive style works wonders. Without sacrificing tenderness, the CSO strings really lean into their parts. Not to mention that it's in demonstration-quality analogue sound.

Second, I can't believe there hasn't been a mention of Eugen Jochum. He did two complete cycles (or are there others?) and both are excellent, but the latter-year one with the London Philharmonic is spectacular, with a flexibility of tempo that makes the pieces lunge, hesitate, and breath like a living thing. The first is probably the best of the cycle.


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## geralmar (Feb 15, 2013)

Kondrashin/Moscow Radio Large Symphony Orchestra. For a raw and angry-sounding Brahms.


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## dsphipps100 (Jan 10, 2016)

geralmar said:


> ...raw...


Definitely an apt description of Soviet wind sections....


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## Templeton (Dec 20, 2014)

hpowders said:


> Their Brahms 4 is also the best I've ever heard.


Thanks for the rec, I've just bought this for the equivalent of US$ 1. And it's coupled with a version of Dvořák's Eighth Symphony, which I really like. Bargain.


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## dieter (Feb 26, 2016)

Steve Wright said:


> This will probably scare some of you off (or not?), but I was listening to a lot of Celibidache on YouTube yesterday, and was very taken with his Brahms 1, 3 and 4 (didn't get on to 2). Very atmospheric readings, in which - as someone else put it better than I am about to - you hear not just the notes but the spaces around them...


I love his Brahms.
He was a great conductor.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Templeton said:


> Thanks for the rec, I've just bought this for the equivalent of US$ 1. And it's coupled with a version of Dvořák's Eighth Symphony, which I really like. Bargain.


Good for you! Many of these great older recordings can be purchased at very reasonable prices. I tend to like the non-digital stereo.


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

I am not sure which is the most magisterial (warmth is a better Brahms litmus test for me) but there are quite a few Brahms 1s that work wonderfully to my ears. Many might be only available as part of a set. Anyway, Toscanini (the live recording from London - there are some good remasters and anyway the performances blazes through the old sound), Walter, Karajan, Sanderling, Abbado, Thielemann and Svetlanov (a must have!) all do it for me. Oh, and another vote for the Celibidache (the Munich recording) and there are quite a few worthwhile Furtwanglers around. And I am worried, now, that I can't remember having heard the Szell.


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## Brahmsian Colors (Sep 16, 2016)

Klemperer/Philharmonia Orchestra and Van Beinum/Concertgebouw Orchestra (1958 stereo version)


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## scott777 (Oct 9, 2016)

BPO, Bohm, 1960.


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## Francis Poulenc (Nov 6, 2016)

Bernstein is great for the Brahms symphonies.


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

Solti/CSO - terrific, plus I love it that he takes the first mvt repeat...very effective

Wand/CSO is also really great - the final section is really stunning...

Toscanini/NBC - classic - AT recognizes, and carries th big long phrases.


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## JACE (Jul 18, 2014)

ObscurePlayer said:


> I can't believe there hasn't been a mention of *Eugen Jochum*. He did two complete cycles (or are there others?) and both are excellent, but the latter-year one with the London Philharmonic is spectacular, with a flexibility of tempo that makes the pieces lunge, hesitate, and breath like a living thing.


I couldn't agree more, Mr. (or Ms.) ObscurePlayer!!!

Jochum's recordings of Brahms' First Symphony with the London PO is my favorite version too -- by quite a margin.

It's available in a 2-CD set (with Syms. Nos. 2 & 3) AND in Jochum's 20-CD _Icon_ set (that also includes Jochum's superb Bruckner and LvB cycles):


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

> Solti/CSO - terrific, plus I love it that he takes the first mvt repeat...very effective.


Someone who knows the stuff!


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

A very fine Brahms 1 is the recording by the Boston Symphony Orchestra conducted by Charles Munch.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

Francis Poulenc said:


> Bernstein is great for the Brahms symphonies.


Yup! I have the DG set. And Abbado's 70s DG recording.


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