# Does Schumann Belong Among the Immortals?



## Xavier (Jun 7, 2012)

_"What are we to make of Robert Schumann? Living in a century of unbalanced geniuses-Poe, Nietzsche, Maupassant, van Gogh-Schumann ranks as one of the most complex. Airing his bipolar nature publicly in the form of the fictional figures Florestan, the extroverted idealist, and Eusebius, the introverted dreamer, and writing music heavily coded with people and events, Schumann lived his art to such a degree that his anxious personal life and his mercurial compositions became one and the same"_

http://www.weeklystandard.com/articles/among-immortals_741005.html?nopager=1


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

Since he died, he is obviously not immortal. Will his compositional legacy survive? Sure, but that holds for hundreds of composers. So what exactly is the discussion point?


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

Xavier said:


> _"What are we to make of Robert Schumann? Living in a century of unbalanced geniuses-Poe, Nietzsche, Maupassant, van Gogh-Schumann ranks as one of the most complex. Airing his bipolar nature publicly in the form of the fictional figures Florestan, the extroverted idealist, and Eusebius, the introverted dreamer, and writing music heavily coded with people and events, Schumann lived his art to such a degree that his anxious personal life and his mercurial compositions became one and the same"_
> 
> http://www.weeklystandard.com/articles/among-immortals_741005.html?nopager=1


Boy, the above is filled with post-modern dripping sentiment over making something out of mental disability and tics, idn't it? Reminding you that for every highly colorful and pathetic bi-polar great artist there are tens of thousands of other who are bipolar and other than that boring as ______!

So, shedding the fact that a number of great artists were great, had a handicap, *and despite of that disability (not because of it) managed to produce a reasonable body of works the world still thinks of as genius*, perhaps puts the bi-polar glam hype in its proper place, the nearly wholly irrelevant bin.

As to the OP -- I'm with Art Rock. 
Your question was answered, by many, for some hundred years, before you ever posted it.


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## Garlic (May 3, 2013)

There are no immortals, but Schumann was a fantastic composer and is fully deserving of being talked about in the same company as the other "greats". I find this romantic notion of the tortured artist tedious in the extreme, from Beethoven to Shostakovich, it's just a distraction from the music.



PetrB said:


> So, shedding the fact that a number of great artists were great, had a handicap, and despite of that disability (not because of it) managed to produce a reasonable body of works the world still thinks of as genius, perhaps puts the bi-polar glam hype in its proper place, the nearly wholly irrelevant bin.


Well said.


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## Nereffid (Feb 6, 2013)

Idea for how to proceed with this discussion:

TC members throw dice to be assigned one of two positions:
1. Yes, Schumann belongs among the immortals.
2. No, Schumann does not belong among the immortals.
Each player can then draw up to 5 cards from the pile of Subjective And Probably Inconsistent Reasons. They then use these reasons to engage in futile argument.
Any player who draws a Joker is allowed to make ignorant comments about mental illness and/or suicide.
The winner is the last person who gives a flying f***.

:devil:


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## Ingélou (Feb 10, 2013)

Yes, Schumann belongs among the immortals because his music has joined the classical music canon.
Yes, it's interesting to read about his life - but no, it's not *ultimately* relevant. 

And the jury's out on whether he had bipolar disorder or whether he caught some more mundane disease - same one as Schubert - from his university days. Since that is so, I think Kay Redfield Jamison has done the sufferers of bipolar disorder a disservice by suggesting that the illness is always linked with creativity & that it's okay to be ill & torture your nearest and dearest so long as you produce 'great art'.


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## CypressWillow (Apr 2, 2013)

Nereffid said:


> Idea for how to proceed with this discussion:
> 
> TC members throw dice to be assigned one of two positions:
> 1. Yes, Schumann belongs among the immortals.
> ...


 Simply brilliant! Thanks.

And with a few minor substitutions, to how many other threads can this post be applied?!?!


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## Klavierspieler (Jul 16, 2011)

Art Rock said:


> Since he died, he is obviously not immortal. Will his compositional legacy survive? Sure, but that holds for hundreds of composers. So what exactly is the discussion point?


Wait... You mean, he's dead?


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## Radames (Feb 27, 2013)

Art Rock said:


> Since he died, he is obviously not immortal. Will his compositional legacy survive? Sure, but that holds for hundreds of composers. So what exactly is the discussion point?


I think it's whether he ranks up with the likes of Beethoven, Brahms, and Wagner. I think his music is underplayed in concerts. I would rather hear Schumann than Beethoven or Brahms at this point. You hear the Beethoven and Brahms symphonies over and over and over and over...


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## Weston (Jul 11, 2008)

As to immortality, I hate death. I think all higher life forms, primates, cetaceans, canines, felines, octopi, etc, desrve immortality. Schumann has already achieved a measure of it through his music. It is in no danger of disappearing. We still play music by far lesser known composers, Pierre de La Rue for instance. 

I'm not too worried about Schumann's place in history, but I do wish his symphonies weren't so often dismissed as poorly orchestrated. What matters in the end is how they sound to the listener. That's me. And I think they are fabulous.


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## Vesteralen (Jul 14, 2011)

Yes .


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

Weston said:


> As to immortality, I hate death. I think all higher life forms, primates, cetaceans, canines, felines, octopi, etc, desrve immortality. Schumann has already achieved a measure of it through his music. It is in no danger of disappearing. We still play music by far lesser known composers, Pierre de La Rue for instance.
> 
> I'm not too worried about Schumann's place in history, but I do wish his symphonies weren't so often dismissed as poorly orchestrated. What matters in the end is how they sound to the listener. That's me. And I think they are fabulous.


Isn't it more than interesting, and ironic, that a number of composers and conductors have tried to "improve" Schumann's orchestration, but none of those are in regular circulation as performed or recorded, and they are instead minor footnotes in music history of "things that failed."

Hmmmm. Maybe that orchestration is not as flawed as some criticize it as being?


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## kv466 (May 18, 2011)

All I could think of when I saw this thread was your cat, Klavier!


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## Op.123 (Mar 25, 2013)

*yes*. .


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

PetrB said:


> Hmmmm. Maybe that orchestration is not as flawed as some criticize it as being?


Gardiner claims that the orchestration is just fine if you have the right orchestra. IMO his Schumann symphony set bears this out. Listen especially to the first 1841 version of the 4th Symphony, which is in Gardiner's set. Brahms published this version in 1891 over Clara's objections, since he thought it better than the thicker 1851 version. Nevertheless, it is the 1851 version that is most often heard.


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## hreichgott (Dec 31, 2012)

Schumann is wonderful.

It is too bad that discussions of Schumann get over-shadowed by attempted psychoanalysis of the dead. Bi-polar disorder (or not, or something else) has very little to do with enjoying Schumann's music.

I love everything Schumann wrote that I've heard so far and am especially fond of the piano music. Kinderszenen, Fantasiestucke (both sets), Kreisleriana, Papillons, the Sonatas, Carnaval...

Schumann doesn't get enough credit for turning the character piece into a major form.

In teaching, I don't think I'll ever get tired of teaching Melody in C major, Wild Rider or Happy Farmer -- three motivating and fun-to-play pieces with appropriate challenges. Can't wait to have a student who can play around in Papillons or something  -- actually I do have one but she's busy with Chopin at present...


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## brianvds (May 1, 2013)

"Immortal" is a big word because eternity is a long time. 

But Schumann is unquestionably one of the great masters, simply because, like it or not, much of his music is still regularly performed and widely enjoyed more than 150 years after his death.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

I'm not sure whether Schumann is one of the immortals as that would imply he is one of the gods. He was, however, a great composer for the piano. His legion of great piano works are right up there with the best.


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## Klavierspieler (Jul 16, 2011)

DavidA said:


> *I'm not sure* whether Schumann is one of the immortals as that would imply he is one of the gods.


Blasphemy... 



> He was, however, a great composer for the piano. His legion of great piano works are right up there with the best.


Quite right here though.


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## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

I wouldn't raise him to Olympus along with the likes of Zeus (Bach), Ares (Beethoven), Apollo (Mozart) etc. but he probably qualifies for demi-god status along with the likes of Chopin and Liszt. On second thoughts, perhaps Liszt should be a satyr instead.


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## Blancrocher (Jul 6, 2013)

elgars ghost said:


> I wouldn't raise him to Olympus along with the likes of Zeus (Bach), Ares (Beethoven), Apollo (Mozart) etc. but he probably qualifies for demi-god status along with the likes of Chopin and Liszt. On second thoughts, perhaps Liszt should be a satyr instead.


Shall we call him Proteus?


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## JCarmel (Feb 3, 2013)

No, we shouldn't call him 'Proteus' as it sounds like a health bread!

Schumann wrote Much Magic-Music...for me. But I think he's got a bit of a Nasty-Hair-day, here?









I've just been for a Pensioners cut-Price Hair-cut this afternoon....pity I could've taken Robert with me (though he would've had to have paid full price....& Rachel, the hairdresser who has drawn the short-straw with having to do all the cut-price Pensioners' cuts....would probably refuse to take the Deutsche Mark for it. Was the 'Mark' the currency in Robert's time I'm wondering?.... I'm sure that there are several clever people here who know?)


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## Ingélou (Feb 10, 2013)

Yes - in this picture, he looks as if he could be a Victorian matron; ignore the lapels & imagine hair drawn back into a bun with ringlets curled round the ears, a bombazine dress & a lace collar peering above it. 

Schumann's life is fascinating - but I read a mini-biog of him recently that *blamed* Clara for going back to performing while he was ill & suggesting that her pleasure in the opportunity weighed more with her than concern for her husband. Written by a bloke, obviously! 

PS - I wonder which is his *most* immortal work. For popularity, I suppose Traumerei?


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## Vesteralen (Jul 14, 2011)

As old as it is, Schauffler's biography seems to be a very balanced and thorough take on both the man and his music. Anyone who doubts the significance of his contributions to the language of music in the Romantic era should read this book.

But, portraits of Schumann are so bizarrely different at different periods of his life that it's hard to get an idea of his real appearance.
















The real Schumann?


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Ingenue said:


> Schumann's life is fascinating - but I read a mini-biog of him recently that *blamed* Clara for going back to performing while he was ill & suggesting that her pleasure in the opportunity weighed more with her than concern for her husband. Written by a bloke, obviously!
> 
> PS - I wonder which is his *most* immortal work. For popularity, I suppose Traumerei?


Schumann's piano music is absolutely phenomenal. I vary as to what is my favourite.

At the moment I've just got a disc of Anda playing the Kreisleriana, so that would top it for me at the moment.anda really was a great Schumann player.
But Zi've also got the work played by Horowitz (x2) Cherkassky, and Argerich. All wonderful!


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## Novelette (Dec 12, 2012)

PetrB said:


> Boy, the above is filled with post-modern dripping sentiment over making something out of mental disability and tics, idn't it? Reminding you that for every highly colorful and pathetic bi-polar great artist there are tens of thousands of other who are bipolar and other than that boring as ______!
> 
> So, shedding the fact that a number of great artists were great, had a handicap, *and despite of that disability (not because of it) managed to produce a reasonable body of works the world still thinks of as genius*, perhaps puts the bi-polar glam hype in its proper place, the nearly wholly irrelevant bin.
> 
> ...


It's a perplexing mindset, this obsession with diagnosing or, at any rate, psychoanalyzing past individuals. If you enjoy Schumann's music, enjoy it. If you are interested in the history of his life, then read it. If those two things don't interact, then don't bother. I really don't see it as more complicated as that.

The superstition that those who suffer are somehow blessed--after all, were people burdened with leprosy not formerly considered [in some minds, at least] blessed because of their suffering? Genius equates to madness. Imaginativeness seen as the early manifestations of an affliction which we, with the benefit of hindsight, know all too well. These platitudes have long since outlived their usefulness [indeed, they never had any!] as a means of characterizing real people.

For every Schumann [who, may it be gently remembered, when he conjured these literary personages in his writings was caught up in a kind of contemporary admiration for the suffering genius--Chateaubriand Style; not the steak, mind you] who created literary counterparts in his imagination and writings, I'm sure there are well over a hundred thousand who do the very same and yet _do not_ manifest mental illness.

Therefore, I believe that Schumann _the composer_ should be held to account only for the quality of his music; thus with Haydn; thus with Wagner; thus with Beethoven; thus with Gesualdo.

Personally, I adore Schumann's music [obsessed with it is more like it]. He is well situated in _my_ pantheon of great composers.


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## spradlig (Jul 25, 2012)

Yes. .


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## shangoyal (Sep 22, 2013)

Schumann's piano music is absolutely incredible - very unique, intelligent. It's dreamy and moving without being maudlin. I find his music essays things very difficult to say with music. When Beethoven tries to say things with piano music, he can only express very broad moods and he often fails (I don't like the Hammerklavier's constant attempts at sounding important). Mozart and Schubert are great too but they express common stuff - Schubert's music is sometimes too long. Schumann's music is so much more - it sounds like he composed very few uninspired piano pieces, while other composers produced many. Maybe only Chopin matches him in this regard.

I rank him as the 3rd greatest composer of piano music behind Bach and Chopin (of the ones I've heard).


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## stevens (Jun 23, 2014)

The talk about "imortals" is one of those annoying features in classical music


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

spradlig said:


> Yes. .


I wouldn't argue, though he's not my cup of tea.


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## Dustin (Mar 30, 2012)

In the beginning of my classical listening, I naively totally disregarded him in favor of Chopin(Chopin's attitude towards Schumann further helped to drive this attitude home). I mention those two because they were a couple of the first composers that I heard because they were pre-programmed into the Casio keyboard I bought a few years back. What a funny way to begin this crazy journey of classical exploration...

Anyway, I've wisened up these days and his music is growing on me more and more all the time. I haven't place him in my top tier yet but he may get there one day.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Does Schumann belong among the immortals? Well, he certainly thought so.

He is way, way down on my own list. I find his music lacking in staying power.

I'm glad thought that he was considered a legend in his own mind....what was left of it.


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## Antiquarian (Apr 29, 2014)

I think his works will always be a part of the repertoire, and have a place at piano recitals in particular, but I can't say for certain if he is revered in the same way as Beethoven, Mozart, or Brahms are. If classical music has a pantheon, I see him as one of the minor immortals.


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## Vesteralen (Jul 14, 2011)

Whether or not you equate him with Beethoven, or even Chopin, Schumann was as unique a talent as ever was in music. I think it's that very uniqueness that keeps people arguing about him. In my experience, he either speaks to you or he doesn't. For those of us to whom he speaks, he is as irreplaceable an entity as the very greatest composer who ever lived. Our experience with classical music would be significantly diminished without him. If he doesn't speak to you, well, that's your world, and you're welcome to it.


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## Alypius (Jan 23, 2013)

There are certain composers whose music that I find that I can enter into relatively easily. They have enough architectural girders that one can fairly quickly see the outlines of what they are doing. I found Schumann baffling for a while--and struggled to pinpoint my struggle. A colleague and I had been exchanging back and forth on Schumann, and he described his experience of performing Schumann's piano works. I found one of his comments especially poignant. Let me quote part of it:



> Schumann's fantastic imagination coupled with his multiple personalities, his depression, and the sometimes biographical nature of some of his works gives pianists an excuse to indulge in playing that likely bears little resemblance to performance practice during Schumann's own lifetime .. Any composer can be played in a willfully self-indulgent manner ... and Schumann's music is particularly tempting given his biography and his music's eccentricities. This is what makes Schumann so difficult: how does one make sense of the fantastic and how much 'sense' ruins the fantastic? There are ecstasy, contemplation, fire, deep melancholy, wild laughter, panic, Baroque counterpoint, waltzing, conversations between literary characters including a vainglorious tomcat whose paws are covered in ink, horror ... all in the space of a mere 25 minutes of Kreisleriana. Some of this occurs within a mere few moments. It's difficult. In fact, it's the most difficult piano music ever written. And I haven't even mentioned technique.


I found those comments particularly helpful. They helped me begin to hear Schumann -- and savor the challenge of interpreting him in a balanced way.

Favorite works: 
*Davidsbündlertänze, op. 6 (1837)
*Klaviersonate #1 in F sharp minor, op. 11 (1832-1835)
*Etudes symphoniques, op. 13 (1833-1838)
*Kinderszenen, op. 15 (1838)
*Kreisleriana, op. 16 (1838)
*Fantasie in C major, op. 17 (1836-1838)
*Arabeske, op. 18 (1838)

A few recordings:


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## Guest (Jul 5, 2014)

I like some of his stuff, but he isn't in my top 10. I probably like his chamber music (e.g. violin sonatas) more than his piano music. His symphonies don't do much for me.

It seems to me that during his life Schumann was very linked in to the music business, which made his subsequent breakdown a very public event. I wonder what his legacy would have been had he been an introvert living in the periphery.

Of course plenty of people love Schumann though. So I suppose he's traipsing about in Elysium now, listening to an iPod.


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## ArtMusic (Jan 5, 2013)

Yes, Schumann was one of the greats. He was better at writing smaller scale minitures. Had a type of intimacy that his larger pieces could not draw as well.


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## violadude (May 2, 2011)

I prefer small scale Schumann as well, piano pieces, lieder and chamber works. I like his symphonies alright but I'd probably take Brahms symphonies over Schumann's any day. 

And yes, I think he deserves to be considered among the greatest.


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## ArtMusic (Jan 5, 2013)

violadude said:


> I prefer small scale Schumann as well, piano pieces, lieder and chamber works. I like his symphonies alright but I'd probably take Brahms symphonies over Schumann's any day.
> 
> And yes, I think he deserves to be considered among the greatest.


And it was a pity that his personal life was troubling / mental illness. He surely would have written manuy more great pieces if things turned out alright for him. But given all that, he wrote a good bulk of great music.


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## Badinerie (May 3, 2008)

Klavierspieler said:


> Wait... You mean, he's dead?


Well I hope so, they buried him....








Also..I dont judge a composer by their popular perceived status in the music community but by who's being performed recorded and listened to now. Schumann is doing alright.


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## peeyaj (Nov 17, 2010)

I am still in my difficult phase in appreciating Schumann. But I really really like his piano concerto.


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## Andolink (Oct 29, 2012)

Having been, just minutes ago, blown away by how beautiful his _Piano Trio No. 1 in D minor_ is and having a few days ago been even more blown away by how beautiful his _String Quartet No. 2 in F major_ is, I have absolutely no hesitation in ranking Schumann right up there with the biggest boys in the Pantheon.

I have to admit though that his symphonies have always rather bored me.


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## spradlig (Jul 25, 2012)

Hey, that was my answer!

..and I though I was being so clever. 



Vesteralen said:


> Yes .


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## revdrdave (Jan 8, 2014)

Brahms liked him, and that's good enough for me. Of course, Brahms also loved his wife...


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## amfortas (Jun 15, 2011)

revdrdave said:


> Brahms liked him, and that's good enough for me. Of course, Brahms also loved his wife...


Why shouldn't a man love his wife?


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## Novelette (Dec 12, 2012)

amfortas said:


> Why shouldn't a man love his wife?


I'm sure Revdrdave means that Brahms [allegedly] loved Clara Schumann, Robert's wife; Brahms himself remained unmarried.


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## amfortas (Jun 15, 2011)

Novelette said:


> I'm sure Revdrdave means that Brahms [allegedly] loved Clara Schumann, Robert's wife; Brahms himself remained unmarried.


And therefore *didn't* love his wife!


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## Novelette (Dec 12, 2012)

amfortas said:


> And therefore *didn't* love his wife!


He was apparently miserly with his affections, then! :lol:


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## Eusebius12 (Mar 22, 2010)

Alypius said:


> There are certain composers whose music that I find that I can enter into relatively easily. They have enough architectural girders that one can fairly quickly see the outlines of what they are doing. I found Schumann baffling for a while--and struggled to pinpoint my struggle. A colleague and I had been exchanging back and forth on Schumann, and he described his experience of performing Schumann's piano works. I found one of his comments especially poignant. Let me quote part of it:
> 
> I found those comments particularly helpful. They helped me begin to hear Schumann -- and savor the challenge of interpreting him in a balanced way.
> 
> ...


What a great post. My feelings exactly. Kreisleriana is an awesome challenge to play, and it isn't the notes. It isn't even the interpretation. To convey the soul of the thing, is an exhausting but always illuminating and transcendant experience. Almost as much with the Davidsbuendler and the Fantasy.


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## jdec (Mar 23, 2013)

hpowders said:


> I wouldn't argue, though *he's not my cup of tea*.
> 
> Does Schumann belong among the immortals? Well, he certainly thought so.
> 
> ...


What about 4 years later of your above statements, hpowders? I know you have changed your mind 

EDIT: OP, yes, Schumann belongs among the "immortals" for me.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

I believe this question has long been settled.


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## Josquin13 (Nov 7, 2017)

If you consider Franz Schubert an immortal for his highly regarded lieder compositions, than Schumann must also be considered an immortal too, in my view. Personally, I tend to prefer Schumann's songs to Schubert's, overall, which is really saying something (though I may be in a minority here?).

Dichterliebe, Op. 48:









--Wunderlich & Giesen live at the Salzburg Festival.





https://www.amazon.com/Schumann-Dic...423&sr=1-1&keywords=fritz+wunderlich+schumann
https://www.amazon.com/Liederabend-...167&sr=1-8&keywords=fritz+wunderlich+schumann
https://www.amazon.com/Robert-Schum...83371&sr=1-6&keywords=peter+schreier+schumann

Frauenliebe und -leben, Op. 42:














https://www.amazon.com/Robert-Schum...sr=1-2-catcorr&keywords=arleen+auger+schumann
https://www.amazon.com/SCHUMANN-ARL...6083559&sr=1-5&keywords=arleen+auger+schumann
https://www.amazon.com/Mendelssohn-...36083515&sr=1-4&keywords=janet+baker+schumann
https://www.amazon.com/Schumann-Fra...36083515&sr=1-1&keywords=janet+baker+schumann
https://www.amazon.com/Frauenliebe-...95&sr=1-1&keywords=elly+ameling+schumann+sacd
https://www.amazon.com/Elly-Ameling...6083459&sr=1-2&keywords=elly+ameling+schumann


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Eusebius12 said:


> What a great post. My feelings exactly. Kreisleriana is an awesome challenge to play, and it isn't the notes. It isn't even the interpretation. To convey the soul of the thing, is an exhausting but always illuminating and transcendant experience. Almost as much with the Davidsbuendler and the Fantasy.


Yes. My favorite Schumann work is Kreisleriana, a whirlwind of feverish passion. Those who really want to know Schumann, chuck the symphonies and get to become familiar with the early piano works, written under the spell of Clara Wieck. The Fantasie in C. Kreisleriana. Symphonic Etudes. Carnaval. Kinderszenen and Humoreske.This is Schumann at his greatest.


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

hpowders said:


> Yes. My favorite Schumann work is Kreisleriana, a whirlwind of feverish passion. Those who really want to know Schumann, chuck the symphonies and get to become familiar with the early piano works, written under the spell of Clara Wieck. The Fantasie in C. Kreisleriana. Symphonic Etudes. Carnaval. Kinderszenen and Humoreske.This is Schumann at his greatest.


My sentiments exactly. :tiphat:


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## Sloe (May 9, 2014)

Yes he does he wrote wonderful music both orchestral, chamber and vocal.


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## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

According to this famous silhouette he already is among the immortals - here welcoming Brahms to the pantheon.


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## Larkenfield (Jun 5, 2017)

Yes, he does. His work is instantly recognizable for those familiar with it. He had passion, drive, vision, inspiration, and the piano literature would be unthinkable without him. He was a generous man who also promoted others he felt worthy of praise. He was a good husband and father, a good friend. He was tremendously productive. He wrote wonderful lieder. His symphonies are inspired and wonderful. It’s hard to imagine anyone doing more for the time he lived in. One of my favorites. I would also find it unthinkable to include Chopin and not Schumann on Olympus. While his writing for the piano may not have been as idiomatic as it was by Chopin and Liszt, perhaps not fitting the fingers comfortably to the keyboard in the same way, his piano compositions were so inspired and uplifting. I never found any malice in him or spite or sarcasm, which I consider remarkable and rewarding in itself. I love his music and feel that he’s deserving of the highest honors. My favorite work of his is his Symphonic Studies.


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## Steve Mc (Jun 14, 2018)

Yes, next question.


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## Eusebius12 (Mar 22, 2010)

Josquin13 said:


> If you consider Franz Schubert an immortal for his highly regarded lieder compositions, than Schumann must also be considered an immortal too, in my view. Personally, I tend to prefer Schumann's songs to Schubert's, overall, which is really saying something (though I may be in a minority here?).
> 
> Dichterliebe, Op. 48:
> 
> ...


I am a confirmed Schumannophile, as indicated by my username. I still would give the laurels in lieder to Schubert, because of their extraordinary profusion and richness of melody and natural emotion and psychology, whereas the Schumann lieder to excel Schubert's in some respects. The cycles of Schumann feel more integrated, the best Schumann songs always respond to their texts sensitively and perceptively, something Schubert achieves less coherently perhaps. Schumann approaches lieder as a poet as well as a musician, and generally responds compositionally to superior order poetry (Schubert doesn't seem to care whether the poetry is genius or virtual doggerel). Strophic songs are less common in Schumann.


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## Eusebius12 (Mar 22, 2010)

hpowders said:


> Yes. My favorite Schumann work is Kreisleriana, a whirlwind of feverish passion. Those who really want to know Schumann, chuck the symphonies and get to become familiar with the early piano works, written under the spell of Clara Wieck. The Fantasie in C. Kreisleriana. Symphonic Etudes. Carnaval. Kinderszenen and Humoreske.This is Schumann at his greatest.


Indeed, feverish passion and deep metaphysical contemplation. To your list I would add the Faust Scenes, Paradise and the Peri, the major Heine and Eichendorff song cycles (also the Kerner-lieder), the Davidsbuendlertaenze, and the piano trio in d minor. Nice to see the Humoreske get a little love, although still I wouldn't rate it as 1st draw Schumann. Try the Novelettes, the Nachstuecke,even the late Gesaenge der Fruehe as possibly better examples (or the barely known early Intermezzi op.4, great pieces)


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Eusebius12 said:


> Indeed, feverish passion and deep metaphysical contemplation. To your list I would add the Faust Scenes, Paradise and the Peri, the major Heine and Eichendorff song cycles (also the Kerner-lieder), the *Davidsbuendlertaenze*, and the piano trio in d minor. Nice to see the Humoreske get a little love, although still I wouldn't rate it as 1st draw Schumann. Try the Novelettes, the Nachstuecke,even the late Gesaenge der Fruehe as possibly better examples (or the barely known early Intermezzi op.4, great pieces)


Yes. I wanted to add Davids.........ze, but I wasn't sure how to spell it. 

Also, I would add the magnificent song cycle about a woman's life, Frauenliebe und leben.

Those who make decisions on Schumann as a composer based exclusively on the quality of the four symphonies do not know Schumann, and they are missing a lot of magnificent music.


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## Merl (Jul 28, 2016)

Nereffid said:


> Idea for how to proceed with this discussion:
> 
> TC members throw dice to be assigned one of two positions:
> 1. Yes, Schumann belongs among the immortals.
> ...


I love that post. I drew a joker..... Boy, that Schumann guy was totally Radio Rental! Nuts!


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## larold (Jul 20, 2017)

Robert Schumann came in No. 9 among all composers in my survey, ahead of Richard Wagner and trailing Franz Schubert. Before I took the survey I had no idea he would rank among the top 10. 

His overall score, 52, was about the same as Wagner and Verdi and 8 po0ints behind Schubert. It was a great surprise to me to learn he is clearly one of the greatest.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Schumann's story was the opposite of most other composers. His flame burned bright early, as his greatest music were the early piano works, composed while under the spell of Clara Wieck and as he aged, his music, sadly, lost much of that inspiration, so opus 1-26 is where one looks for Schumann at his greatest.


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