# Harrison Birtwistle



## Bach

One word - genius. Discuss.


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## YsayeOp.27#6

The Minotaur received its world premiere in April (15th, I think), and BBC2 broadcasted the work last Saturday. Are you familiar with it?


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## Bach

I'm not actually - I definitely need to get hold of a recording, how many recordings are available?


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## YsayeOp.27#6

The work is two months old, I don't think there's any recording of it.


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## SamGuss

One word: Who?

Any links to sample this?


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## Bach




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## Guest

Well, I must try him again, heard some stuff a couple of years ago  , was not impressed in the slightest, but things change.

*Bach* I tried your links via Youtube, thanks. My view has not changed, he is just not for me.
Why?? No Rhythm, No Melody and the sound is cacophonous to my ears.


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## Rondo

I thought I recognized this name. 'Twas the 'mystery' composer someone had posted in the 'Name the composer' game a while back. He still remains a mystery to me, as I haven't heard any of his works....yet.


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## Guest

Rondo said:


> I thought I recognized this name. He still remains a mystery to me, as I haven't heard any of his works....yet.


You have not missed much IMHO


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## Bach

I can understand why he would not appeal, but from an academic perspective - he's really rather sound. Structurally, melodically, harmonically, originality - he's an excellent composer. One of the best of our time, I would argue.


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## Guest

Can you post a link to a piece that you consider would be acceptable to most, perhaps I have not heard the good stuff. lol


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## Bach

Sadly very little Birtwistle is on YouTube, but I would recommend The Triumph of Time and Gawain's Journey for Birtwistle beginners. You can find clips of both on iTunes.


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## Guest

Granted I didn't come into it as a fan of other Birtwistle works (have only heard Triumph Of Time), but last night I gave The Mask Of Orpheus a second listen. 

Intriguing to no end, yes. Some sonic pleasure here and there. But for a lengthy opera that's inevitably going to need to keep you hooked, it still felt lacking.

Anyone care to shed some light on this work, or Birtwistle in general? I'll probably give the thing an eventual third try, but I just wasn't quite convinced.

Edit: Actually, I read a bit more about the work and then listened to the third act before work today...enjoyed it a fair bit more!


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## hreichgott

I've listened to the Clocks piece a bunch of times. I think it's wonderful and I'd like to learn it someday.
I think there is a youtube of it but Joanna Macgregor plays it much better than the guy on youtube.


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## Morimur

Great composer but not as imaginative as Ferneyhough and Finnissy.


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## Musicforawhile

I think any of us could write something just about as good as Birtwhistle? I have only heard The Minotaur, I liked it, but I don't see how it's genius. Maybe I need to listen to more of his work.


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## Guest

Musicforawhile said:


> I think any of us could write something just about as good as Birtwhistle? I have only heard The Minotaur, I liked it, but I don't see how it's genius. Maybe I need to listen to more of his work.


I have NOT heard The Minotaur, but something tells me its not a massive dip in quality from The Mask Of Orpheus, The Triumph Of Time, Earth Dances, Gawain, Antiphonies, and the like...

You'll have to be more specific if you want help identifying the amazingness


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## elgar's ghost

I have the Etcetera recording of Punch & Judy, a work I enjoy even if hearings are infrequent. I also have a 2-disc compilation of his orchestral work on Decca from the 'British Music Collection' series but I confess to never having really dug into them. Must try harder.


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## brotagonist

I have the reissue of the Etcetera recording:















I like all three works a lot. I wouldn't mind also getting:









The bulk of his work appears to be for the stage. I am not much interested in acquiring these at this point in time.


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## Guest

Musicforawhile said:


> I think any of us could write something just about as good as Birtwhistle?


I would also like to go ahead and request that you write me some more Birtwistle. It's easy enough apparently, and yet I'll love you for it


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## hreichgott

arcaneholocaust said:


> I would also like to go ahead and request that you write me some more Birtwistle. It's easy enough apparently, and yet I'll love you for it


Anyone else here who can write like Birtwistle, please do proceed! the world needs more.


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## Dirge

Harrison BIRTWISTLE: _Carmen Arcadiae Mechanicae Perpetuum_
:: Howarth/London Sinfonietta [Collins/NMC]

"The Perpetual Song of the Mechanical Arcadia" was inspired by Paul Klee's _Twittering Machine_, a primitive-style pen & ink line drawing crudely depicting four mechanical birds connected to a crankshaft fitted with hand crank-a birdy-gurdy if you will-set against an "arcadia" watercolor background: http://www.artchive.com/artchive/k/klee/twittering_machine.jpg

The 9½-minute work is constructed from six musical "mechanisms," which are introduced individually at the outset and then variously juxtaposed and superimposed from thereon out to form 22 "moments." Winds dominate, producing a cacophony of jagged and angular machinery noises and melody-less mechanical birdsong, while percussion provide pointed and punchy punctuation and strings provide severely sawed screeches. As all that would suggest, the work has a primitive mechanical character, and it lumbers along with all the grace and elegance of a prehistoric cuckoo clock on an ox cart traveling down a rocky goat path. While the pictorial inspiration of Klee's _Twittering Machine_ is clear, the music itself sounds more like a cubist representation of Stravinsky's Symphonies of Wind Instruments (with a touch of Varèse thrown in). It still sounds like Birtwistle, however, and anyone familiar with his relatively popular _Secret Theatre_ will recognize his handiwork here.

The excellent old Howarth/London Sinfonietta recording can be heard at Spotify and YouTube:


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## Richannes Wrahms

There is a strange sense of veiled familiarity in his music. I was just reading about his admiration for the music of Machaut, which he has arranged several times. Another Machaut devotee was Dutilleux. 

My only, subjective, critique: his vocal writing often sounds very frail.


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## Mandryka

Richannes Wrahms said:


> There is a strange sense of veiled familiarity in his music. I was just reading about his admiration for the music of Machaut, which he has arranged several times. Another Machaut devotee was Dutilleux.
> 
> My only, subjective, critique: his vocal writing often sounds very frail.


I'm not sure I agree with this totally, the point about familiarity. Neither do I totally share the response about frailty. The Mask of Orpheus seems quite original to me, and the singing in Punch and Judy or The Moth Requiem seems quite forceful.


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## Blancrocher

A 10-minute film about how and where Birtwistle composes while at home, shot by the composer's godson. No interesting revelations from the voice-over, but the setting is really lovely. As an aside, I assume that the lighting in Birtwistle's workshop has deliberately been made inadequate for cinematographic effect.


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## Janspe

This thread needs to wake up!

I'm currently listening to this album:









It contains the _Antiphonies_ for piano and orchestra and _Harrison's Clocks_ for piano solo - both pieces wonderfully interpreted by Joanna MacGregor, with the Radio Filharmonisch Orkest and Michael Gielen joining in for the concerto. I enjoyed both works a lot, though I need to delve into them a bit more before I can give a proper opinion.

I don't know Birtwistle's music very well. I heard _Punch and Judy_ once, and also _Secret Theatre_, but that's about it.

What are the TC Birtwistle fans up to these days? Anything interesting going on?


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## Mandryka

I saw Joanna MacGregor give the first performance of Harrison’s Clocks in London. I think it was written for her, and I vaguely recall the reference to Harrison isn’t to the composer but someone important in the science of horology. 

It’s a long time since I listened to Birtwistle, so it’s nice to get this prompt. I think the last thing I enjoyed was the trio. And it has been at the back of my mind to revisit The Masque Of Orpheus, though I find his operas a bit problematic because I’ve never managed to get hold of the librettos. I saw Gawain in its first run in the Royal Opera, and it was very memorable. 

I just noticed that Nicolas Hodges released a Birtwistle CD called Slow Frieze Antiphonies, has anyone heard it.


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## Blancrocher

Janspe said:


> I don't know Birtwistle's music very well. I heard _Punch and Judy_ once, and also _Secret Theatre_, but that's about it.
> 
> What are the TC Birtwistle fans up to these days? Anything interesting going on?


His Moth Requiem album is my favorite. I also like the recent cd with Angel Fighter. He's had more premieres since--including the well-reviewed "Deep Time"-that haven't yet appeared on disk.


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## Janspe

Exploring some Birtwistle again: _Nomos_ and _The Triumph of Time_ tonight, both quite early works. It's so fascinating to delve into a composer's world without being that familiar with their particular style. I spend a lot of time with composers I already know these days, and this is very benificial to me indeed. The only way to find new obsessions is by listening, listening, listening...

I find myself very fascinated by Birtwistle's subtle and solemn idiom; can't wait to explore more. I'll stay away from the stage works for now and concentrate more on the orchestral scores.


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## Enthusiast

I spent a long time feeling that Birtwistle wasn't for me but it turns out he very much is. I think Antiphonies is one of the greatest piano concertos since Bartok and the MacGregor CD coupled with Harrison's Clocks (a very attractive work) is a good one .... but perhaps this one is better:









Pulse Shadows is impressive. Earth Dances is very powerful. And this record is one I seem always to be playing:









Tragoedia and Secret Theatre are also good.


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## allaroundmusicenthusiast

Let's see if we can bring a little bit of life into this thread. Impressions of Birtwistle? Good, bad, positive, negative, whatever (without making any nasty attacks on him or on his listeners). Favourite works? Etc.


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## Mandryka

The songs, the last thing I enjoyed were the Niedecker songs. I saw Orfeo a couple of years ago but it was too camp for me, and too long, I've not got the stamina for long opera any more.

The Tree of Strings is a sort of intriguing thing, something I always don't much enjoy when I listen to it but somehow revisit from time to time in the hope of seeing what the fuss is about.

There's something dramatic, extrovert, theatrical about a lot of his stuff which isn't my cup of tea.


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## joen_cph

This, including the songs mentioned above, is indeed a very fine disc and shows a much more intimate, less granite-appearing, and even lyrical side of Birtwistle:

















http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2014/Aug14/Birtwistle_chamber_2253.htm


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## allaroundmusicenthusiast

Yes, that's a great CD


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## allaroundmusicenthusiast

Mandryka said:


> The songs, the last thing I enjoyed were the Niedecker songs. I saw Orfeo a couple of years ago but it was too camp for me, and too long, I've not got the stamina for long opera any more.
> 
> The Tree of Strings is a sort of intriguing thing, something I always don't much enjoy when I listen to it but somehow revisit from time to time in the hope of seeing what the fuss is about.
> 
> There's something dramatic, extrovert, theatrical about a lot of his stuff which isn't my cup of tea.


The Tree of Strings and Orpheus are very much in my top 5 Birtwistle works, but I see your point. I think he's one of the great contrapuntal masters of this era, and counterpoint turns even into time itself in Orpheus, a work that I just listened to for the first time today, but one that I think could lend itself very well to deep, even philosophical, analysis


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## Mandryka

allaroundmusicenthusiast said:


> one that I think could lend itself very well to deep, even philosophical, analysis


Go on then . . .


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## allaroundmusicenthusiast

If I didn't have a job I'd definetly go for it


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## composingmusic

There’s a very particular quality to a lot of his work, which you also see in Turnage I think. In particular, the high register and extreme low register are emphasised, and this gives the music a very particular kind of edge. It’s very singular and angular. 

I do enjoy what I’ve heard of his work, and am familiar with a lot of it. Shortly before the pandemic, I had a chance to see Mask of Orpheus at ENO – personally I didn’t agree with a lot of the staging, but I think the music itself was very compelling.


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## HenryPenfold

composingmusic said:


> There's a very particular quality to a lot of his work, which you also see in Turnage I think. In particular, the high register and extreme low register are emphasised, and this gives the music a very particular kind of edge. It's very singular and angular.
> 
> I do enjoy what I've heard of his work, and am familiar with a lot of it. Shortly before the pandemic, *I had a chance to see Mask of Orpheus at ENO - personally I didn't agree with a lot of the staging*, but I think the music itself was very compelling.


Me too, but I didn't agree with _any_ of the staging!


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## composingmusic

HenryPenfold said:


> Me too, but I didn't agree with _any_ of the staging!


That's fair, and I didn't agree with the staging either. I spoke to some other musician colleagues and the general consensus was that we didn't agree with the staging - although most of us thought the remastered electronics sounded really good.


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## HenryPenfold

composingmusic said:


> That's fair, and I didn't agree with the staging either. I spoke to some other musician colleagues and the general consensus was that we didn't agree with the staging - although most of us thought the remastered electronics sounded really good.


Oh yes, the electronics. Excellent. Good ol' Barry!


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## composingmusic

HenryPenfold said:


> Oh yes, the electronics. Excellent. Good ol' Barry!


Excellent indeed!

Further on Birtwistle, I remember hearing a particularly good performance of Carmen Arcadiae Mechanicae Perpetuum at the Aldeburgh festival a few years ago. That's a piece of his I particularly like. Five Distances is also very interesting - and I'm also a fan of Gawain, Earth Dances, and Pulse Shadows, although I haven't managed to catch those live yet.


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## Mandryka

composingmusic said:


> There's a very particular quality to a lot of his work, which you also see in Turnage I think. In particular, the high register and extreme low register are emphasised, and this gives the music a very particular kind of edge. It's very singular and angular.
> 
> I do enjoy what I've heard of his work, and am familiar with a lot of it. Shortly before the pandemic, I had a chance to see Mask of Orpheus at ENO - personally I didn't agree with a lot of the staging, but I think the music itself was very compelling.


The campness of the staging worked to get bums in seats though, that has to count for something. The night I was there quite a lot of the people around me had well and truly dressed for the occasion, amazing hair doos - it was a bit like The Rocky Horror Show audience. I regretted not rising to the opportunity myself in fact, I like a bit of glam.

I wouldn't mind seeing a recording of it. There's such a lot going on, the story at multiple levels. It was too much for me to really take in in fact. There's a book on the opera - I kind of felt I needed to have done some homework first.

The music's fine though. Rather nice, at least in the context of a production. Personally I don't want to just have a sound recording, I don't think.

I felt it was too long - that's just me, but in that ENO production I said to myself that my opera days are over, I haven't got the attention span for a full evening of opera any more. A few years ago I used to go Wagner and such like and think nothing of it, but I'm past it now!


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## HenryPenfold

composingmusic said:


> Excellent indeed!
> 
> Further on Birtwistle, I remember hearing a particularly good performance of Carmen Arcadiae Mechanicae Perpetuum at the Aldeburgh festival a few years ago. That's a piece of his I particularly like. Five Distances is also very interesting - and I'm also a fan of Gawain, Earth Dances, and Pulse Shadows, although I haven't managed to catch those live yet.


C.A.M.P is a long term favourite of mine, but I can't remember if I've attended a performance!

I bumped into him in the interval of an Elliott Carter concert conducted by Boulez some years ago in London. he was sitting a couple of rows in front of me with PMD. Miserable sod, as I remember! Even though Carter was 127 at the time, he was more sociable, happily signing programmes and chatting!


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## composingmusic

HenryPenfold said:


> C.A.M.P is a long term favourite of mine, but I can't remember if I've attended a performance!
> 
> I bumped into him in the interval of an Elliott Carter concert conducted by Boulez some years ago in London. he was sitting a couple of rows in front of me with PMD. Miserable sod, as I remember! Even though Carter was 127 at the time, he was more sociable, happily signing programmes and chatting!


Oh wow, that's interesting! I've managed to see C.A.M.P. a few times in concert, which is fun. Sadly, didn't manage to meet Carter, Boulez, or Max Davies - although I know people who knew these people. That's an interesting story though, I can definitely picture this based on what I've heard!


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## Richannes Wrahms

I think Birtwistle peaked, at least instrumentally, with The Triumph of time, Earth Dances and Silbury Air. 
A pretty high peak if you ask me.
Need to work my way into his operas.


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## NoCoPilot

allaroundmusicenthusiast said:


> Let's see if we can bring a little bit of life into this thread. Impressions of Birtwistle?


I'm exploring his oeuvre today, and have been very impressed. He's done a lot of songs, which really aren't my thing, but among his orchestral works I am loving:
* Earth Dances
* Secret Theatre
* Tragœdia
* In Broken Images
* Cantus Iambeus
* Ritual Fragment

For chamber ensemble:
* Virelai (Sus Une Fontayne) 
* Linoi
* Duets for Storab

For the piano I'm digging:
* Berceuse De jeanne
* Oockooing Bird
* Sad Song


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## HenryPenfold

Richannes Wrahms said:


> I think Birtwistle peaked, at least instrumentally, with The Triumph of time, Earth Dances and Silbury Air.
> A pretty high peak if you ask me.
> Need to work my way into his operas.


If you are unfamiliar with his operas, it's hard to know how you can ascertain his 'peak' of any kind.

Anyway, you are a lucky devil to have his operas waiting for you ..........

Enjoy!


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## HenryPenfold

NoCoPilot said:


> I'm exploring his oeuvre today, and have been very impressed. He's done a lot of songs, which really aren't my thing, but among his orchestral works I am loving:
> * Earth Dances
> * Secret Theatre
> * Tragœdia
> * In Broken Images
> * Cantus Iambeus
> * Ritual Fragment
> 
> For chamber ensemble:
> * Virelai (Sus Une Fontayne)
> * Linoi
> * Duets for Storab
> 
> For the piano I'm digging:
> * Berceuse De jeanne
> * Oockooing Bird
> * Sad Song


The Cry Of Anubis
Melencolia
Meridian
Endless Parade
Gawain's Journey

et al

and the 2 piano concertos

the operas .....


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## NoCoPilot

Am I wrong to think I hear similarities / influences to Hovhanness?


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## starthrower

I have nothing by this composer. I hope to listen to a few pieces this year.


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## Art Rock

Sir Harrison Birtwistle, CH (15 July 1934 – 18 April 2022). RIP.
Wikipedia.


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## Knorf

Gutted.


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## mikeh375

Me too.


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## allaroundmusicenthusiast

Knorf said:


> Gutted.


I was having lunch with other people when I saw the news, audibly gasped and only managed to say that a great composer had died. Nobody asked who it was. Rest in peace, Harry.


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## Janspe

Rest in peace, Birtwistle. A composer of stunning clarity, imagination and uncompromising integrity. His music has always fascinated me, given me solace, fuelled my musical thinking and kept me on my toes. A great genius is gone, but his magnificent output will stand the test of time.


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## Mandryka

This is Yan Tan Tethera, I'm enjoying what I'm seeing and hearing

Yan Tan Tethera - Harrison Birtwistle - YouTube


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