# Symphonies that end on an offbeat?



## Funny (Nov 30, 2013)

I've been getting into Haydn's Symphony #58 lately, which has a lot of fascinating features, but probably the most notable is the last movement, which carries a syncopation throughout in which the 2nd beat is accented, often pulling against the 1st as the "real" downbeat. This is carried to an extreme at the last chords: The 1st beat has a standard triple hammer blow, but in those same measures the 2nd beat ALSO does its own, BIGGER triple hammer blow, with the result that the final note of the symphony is a very conclusive-sounding ending chord that falls on the 2nd beat out of a fast 3. I can't think of any other symphony prior to, say, the turn of the 20th century, that ends on an offbeat. But I haven't heard every symphony ever written (and unlike beginnings, the ends of symphonies are not so easy to mass-search). Anybody know a second, third or fourth instance of this, especially from Haydn's era?

(Here's Dorati's version of the symphony; last mvt at 13:10)


----------



## Bettina (Sep 29, 2016)

Great question! Are you only looking for final cadences, or would you also be interested in internal cadences that end on an offbeat? I'm sure that there must be some examples of resolution on a weak beat at the ends of phrases/sections.

At the moment, I can't think of any examples off the top of my head. Next time that I listen to Haydn, or any other composers from around his time period, I'll definitely be on the lookout (listenout ) for this phenomenon.


----------



## MarkW (Feb 16, 2015)

I'd be curious if the opening of that movement started on a third beat -- because I've heard that in Classical times it was customary for a piece to occupy an even number of measures.


----------



## Funny (Nov 30, 2013)

Thanks for keeping a listenout! (And also for liking the question.) I am thinking only of the final cadence of the whole work. 

Even in this one, for instance, the final cadence mimics the one ending the exposition, but in that case it's quickly followed by a strong downbeat (starting over at the beginning or going on to the development), but when it happens the last time, followed by silence, it really stands out as something truly odd. I was going to say "singularly odd," but that's kind of the basis of the question - how singular is it? (It seems like the kind of wacky thing that CPE Bach might've done but I only know a small percentage of his works.)


----------



## Funny (Nov 30, 2013)

Oop, MarkW, posts crossed. As you'll note in my comment above, the movement does start on the first beat of a complete measure (there is also a complete measure at the end, it just has a rest after the last note). I know what you mean, though, if there's a pickup at the opening a lot of times the last measure will be truncated to even it out. But this isn't that.


----------



## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

Funny said:


> Thanks for keeping a listenout! (And also for liking the question.) I am thinking only of the final cadence of the whole work.


Mahler Sym #9/III - the great Rondo-Burleske ends on an offbeat - < 2/2 time; ends on 'and of 1'>>


----------



## Vasks (Dec 9, 2013)

LOL! My second sonata for trumpet ends on a second beat of a four pattern meter. I have an accent on that last note and it's marked _*f*_. One time I submitted it in some sort of contest and when it was sent back to me a judge had written on the score "_Weak ending_" I hope he wrote that into the Haydn & Mahler score too


----------



## GraemeG (Jun 30, 2009)

Sibelius 5 finishes in the time signature of 3 / 2. The last two bars contain one chord each; the penultimate has a quarter note chord on beat 3, and the final bar has another on beat 2.

And although it's not a symphony, the last bar of Rachmaninov's Symphonic dances, in 6/8, has a rest on the first beat, and an eighth-note chord on beat two.
cheers,
Graeme


----------



## Funny (Nov 30, 2013)

Thanks, all, for the examples - good food for thought! 

Just to reiterate, I'm mostly curious about this phenomenon occurring before the turn of the 20th century. I did think before posting of how Mahler ends his FIRST symphony on an offbeat, and it is indeed a comical effect (since the exaggerated build-up to that point has led us to expect a gloriously long final chord, and he seems to casually cut the whole symphony short), but there it's more of a standard second beat, repeating the first beat an octave down as a kind of punctuation mark, instead of having that beat accented, as in your trumpet sonata, Vasks. Mahler #9/III sounds closer to what I'm talking about, though of course that's from the 20th century.

Also in the 20th century are the Sibelius and Rachmaninoff examples. In each of these cases the composer has been messing with the pulse somewhat, so the "2nd beat" feeling isn't as strong. I'd conjecture that just about no one, just from hearing those last few bars of the 5th, could pinpoint exactly what beat the last note fell on - I sure couldn't, and I've heard the symphony dozens of times. As for Rachmaninoff, the pulse hasn't quite been smeared away as it was in the Sibelius but he's doing enough back-and-forth with hemiola and odd-footing the beats by the end of the piece that that last chord is still felt as being on a strong beat - and indeed it is, the second-strongest beat in the bar (as opposed to ending on the second 8th note, which would be analogous to the Haydn).

Thanks for coming up with those! Now... anything prior to, say, 1898? Or more optimally, 1798?


----------



## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

Mahler - Sym #1 - ends on offbeat


----------



## Funny (Nov 30, 2013)

Right, see my comment just above, but thanks for putting on your thinking cap! Still hoping to hear of something such as the end of Haydn #58 where the offbeat is not an afterthought/echo (such as in Mahler #1), but an equal partner/rival to the first beat. There's gotta be at least one other pre-Mahler symphony out there! ...?


----------



## Animal the Drummer (Nov 14, 2015)

[This board needs a "Delete post" option.]


----------



## Animal the Drummer (Nov 14, 2015)

I was thinking Mozart's Symphony no.39, but on reflection I don't reckon that qualifies after all.


----------



## Funny (Nov 30, 2013)

Well, now since you've made the post and apparently can't delete, you're on the hook to come up with something else! Don't worry, we'll wait. *checks watch*


----------



## Animal the Drummer (Nov 14, 2015)

Take some friendly advice and don't hold your breath waiting!  I'll see what I can do though.


----------



## R3PL4Y (Jan 21, 2016)

Dvorak 8 ends beat 2 in 2/4


----------

