# Cryptics



## janxharris (May 24, 2010)

Just thought it would interesting to have a place for the posting of any cryptic clues relating to music (*either relating just to the clue, or just to the answer, or both*).


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## janxharris (May 24, 2010)

Here's one to begin:

CD mix (5,8)


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## janxharris (May 24, 2010)

Composer of some chamber Gavottes? (4)


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## brianvds (May 1, 2013)

Alas, I have never been able to make head or tails of cryptic clues. In fact, even when I see the solution I still don't get it!


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## janxharris (May 24, 2010)

brianvds said:


> Alas, I have never been able to make head or tails of cryptic clues. In fact, even when I see the solution I still don't get it!




How about this non-musical example:

Put one in my bread (5)

Answer: Money

Put one in my - literally put the word 'one' in the word 'my' - M one Y = money, which is the equivalent of 'bread' being a slang term for it.


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## joen_cph (Jan 17, 2010)

janxharris said:


> Composer of some chamber Gavottes? (4)


If "(4)" refers to the number of letters in the answer, an obvious candidate would then be "the" Bach.


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## janxharris (May 24, 2010)

joen_cph said:


> If "(4)" refers to the number of letters in the answer, an obvious candidate would then be "the" Bach.


Thanks for your reply. Yes, (4) refers to the number of letters in the answer.

If Bach could be justified from the clue then yes, but I don't think it can. The clue isn't necessarily asking for a composer who is known to have written Gavottes as cryptics don't always work like that - and hence the question mark.

Hope that helps.


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## janxharris (May 24, 2010)

I'm not the world's authority on cryptic crossword clues - so if anyone wants to take issue with any of my assertions then please do


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## Nereffid (Feb 6, 2013)

Composer of some cham*BER G*avottes? (4)


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## janxharris (May 24, 2010)

Nereffid said:


> Composer of some cham*BER G*avottes? (4)


Well done Nereffid


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## janxharris (May 24, 2010)

Just to be absolutely pedantically clear:

*The answer does not have to be music related, but if it isn't the clue must be (otherwise the thread would be moved I guess).*


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## joen_cph (Jan 17, 2010)

A musical person who can be identified in this mixture of extreme chaos, dances, rebellious sounds, and times gone by ...

(not very difficult)(5)


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## janxharris (May 24, 2010)

Key person under age (1,5)


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## joen_cph (Jan 17, 2010)

janxharris said:


> Key person under age (1,5)


-> a minor ............... ?


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## janxharris (May 24, 2010)

joen_cph said:


> -> a minor ............... ?


Well done joen_cph


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

janxharris said:


> Thanks for your reply. Yes, (4) refers to the number of letters in the answer.
> 
> If Bach could be justified from the clue then yes, but I don't think it can. The clue isn't necessarily asking for a composer who is known to have written Gavottes as cryptics don't always work like that - and hence the question mark.
> 
> Hope that helps.


It would be a bit of a messy clue but you could get to Bach. So "composer" is an instruction that it is an anagram and it is an anagram of some of chamber - gives you Bach. I agree that Berg is a more elegant solution!


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## joen_cph (Jan 17, 2010)

joen_cph said:


> A musical person who can be identified in this mixture of extreme chaos, dances, rebellious sounds, and times gone by ...
> 
> (not very difficult)(5)


The composer name is there, as well as a description of his by far most famous work.
He wrote what is probably the most well known musical picturing of Chaos from those days, except from that in Haydn's The Creation (unless one widens the definition and includes say the beginning of LvB IX,4.)


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## Taplow (Aug 13, 2017)

Master of song cuts herb somehow.


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## joen_cph (Jan 17, 2010)

Taplow said:


> Master of song cuts herb somehow.


No help in the sense of indicating the number of letters in the name ?


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## janxharris (May 24, 2010)

Taplow said:


> Master of song cuts herb somehow.


Schubert - anagram (somehow) of 'cuts herb'


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## joen_cph (Jan 17, 2010)

joen_cph said:


> A musical person who can be identified in this mixture of extreme chaos, dances, *rebel*lious sounds, and times gone by ...
> 
> (not very difficult)(5)


REBEL was the name of the composer, who wrote _Les Elemens_, no doubt known to some here.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean-Féry_Rebel


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## janxharris (May 24, 2010)

joen_cph said:


> REBEL was the name of the composer, who wrote _Les Elemens_, no doubt known to some here.
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean-Féry_Rebel


Great clue.............


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## brianvds (May 1, 2013)

janxharris said:


> How about this non-musical example:
> 
> Put one in my bread (5)
> 
> ...


I could stare at those clues for the next ten years and never solve it.


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## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

Messed-up carthorse knows how to play (9).

P.S. - did anyone get the clue in the OP? (This is NOT a clue, by the way!)


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## janxharris (May 24, 2010)

elgars ghost said:


> P.S. - did anyone get the clue in the OP? (This is NOT a clue, by the way!)


No. 
And the answer doesn't have to be music related since the clue already is. It's a very difficult clue.


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## Eva Yojimbo (Jan 30, 2016)

elgars ghost said:


> Messed-up carthorse knows how to play (9).


Orchestra, perhaps?


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## janxharris (May 24, 2010)

brianvds said:


> I could stare at those clues for the next ten years and never solve it.


Cryptic clues usually have two parts - the 'definition' which comes at the beginning or the end and which is the straightforward meaning of the answer, and also a cryptic wordplay part. In the example give , 'bread' is the definition and 'put one on my' is the cryptic bit. They both lead to the answer and confirm one another - so 'put one in my'... m one y = 'bread'


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## janxharris (May 24, 2010)

Eva Yojimbo said:


> Orchestra, perhaps?


And there was me straining to think of some obscure virtuoso.


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## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

Eva Yojimbo said:


> Orchestra, perhaps?


Yes. bbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbb


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## Eva Yojimbo (Jan 30, 2016)

Edit: will try again.


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## joen_cph (Jan 17, 2010)

Eva Yojimbo said:


> Edit: will try again.[/QU
> 
> my post (rachmaninoff) is no longer relevant ...


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## Eva Yojimbo (Jan 30, 2016)

A composer who ended a chaotic anharmonic with a fortissimo. (12)


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## joen_cph (Jan 17, 2010)

-> rachmaninoff


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## Eva Yojimbo (Jan 30, 2016)

joen_cph said:


> Eva Yojimbo said:
> 
> 
> > Edit: will try again.
> ...


Actually you got it; I just wanted to slightly rewrite it.


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## janxharris (May 24, 2010)

Eva Yojimbo said:


> A composer who ended a chaotic anharmonic with a fortissimo. (12)


Rachmaninoff

Edit: I'm too late
----------------


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## janxharris (May 24, 2010)

anharmonic - relating to or denoting motion that is not simple harmonic.


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## Eva Yojimbo (Jan 30, 2016)

janxharris said:


> anharmonic - relating to or denoting motion that is not simple harmonic.


No idea what it actually means, but it sounds musical enough!


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## joen_cph (Jan 17, 2010)

Two capitals share these first 3 letters in their name + add a German word for a lot of vegetation. Gives a composer name (7)


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## janxharris (May 24, 2010)

Unsolved:

CD mix (5,8)

*Answers do not have to be music related, but if they aren't then the clue must be (otherwise the thread would be moved I assume).*


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## Eva Yojimbo (Jan 30, 2016)

Composer who had native heart. (4, 6)
Composer of impressive tangles. (5)


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## janxharris (May 24, 2010)

Work but shift contraband (9)


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## Larkenfield (Jun 5, 2017)

janxharris said:


> Here's one to begin:
> 
> CD mix (5,8)


. . . . . . . .


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## joen_cph (Jan 17, 2010)

joen_cph said:


> Two capitals share these first 3 letters in their name + add a German word for a lot of vegetation. Gives a composer name (7)


This one was fairly easy too. Berlin/Bern -> Berwald.


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## Taplow (Aug 13, 2017)

Easy one: So first let the instruments sound salty for conductor.


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## LezLee (Feb 21, 2014)

Taplow said:


> Easy one: So first let the instruments sound salty for conductor.


Solti

So + first letters of 'let the instruments'


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## janxharris (May 24, 2010)

Unsolved:

CD mix (5,8)
Composer who had native heart. (4, 6)
Composer of impressive tangles. (5)
Work but shift contraband (9)

*Either the clue or the answer must be music related - or both (otherwise, I assume the thread would be moved).*


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## Nereffid (Feb 6, 2013)

Composer provides a place to bake a root vegetable around a German B (9)


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## Taplow (Aug 13, 2017)

Nereffid said:


> Composer provides a place to bake a root vegetable around a German B (9)


Beethoven

a root vegetable = beet
a place to bake = oven
a german B = H


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## Taplow (Aug 13, 2017)

I abandoned vision to follow second-rate baroque composer. (6)


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## janxharris (May 24, 2010)

Taplow said:


> I abandoned vision to follow second-rate baroque composer. (6)


Avison - Charles Avison.

Did you mean first-rate?

Remove 'I' from the word 'vision' = vison

First-rate = 'a'

'vison' to follow ie come after 'a' = Avison.


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## Larkenfield (Jun 5, 2017)

Taplow said:


> I abandoned vision to follow second-rate baroque composer. (6)


"Second-rate" Handel [sic] who eventually went blind.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Larkenfield said:


> "Second-rate" Handel [sic] who went completely blind in 1752?


Interesting that the same quack, John Taylor, blinded both Bach and Handel. His reputation was already well-known at the time. Here he is, the upper-left figure in Hogarth's 1736 print _The Company of Undertakers (A Consultation of Quacks)_.


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## Larkenfield (Jun 5, 2017)

KenOC said:


> Interesting that the same quack, John Taylor, blinded both Bach and Handel. His reputation was already well-known at the time. Here he is, the upper-left figure in Hogarth's 1736 print _The Company of Undertakers (A Consultation of Quacks)_.


I would not have wanted to go to Taylor for eye problems - or to the legendary cellist Emanuel Feuermann's lethal proctologist.


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## Larkenfield (Jun 5, 2017)

janxharris said:


> Unsolved:
> 
> CD mix (5,8)
> Composer who had native heart. (4, 6)
> ...


Needs supplementary clues.


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## brianvds (May 1, 2013)

janxharris said:


> Cryptic clues usually have two parts - the 'definition' which comes at the beginning or the end and which is the straightforward meaning of the answer, and also a cryptic wordplay part. In the example give , 'bread' is the definition and 'put one on my' is the cryptic bit. They both lead to the answer and confirm one another - so 'put one in my'... m one y = 'bread'


Indeed. But I can never work them out, and even when I see the solution, I can seldom work out how it was derived from the clues. And then someone patiently explains it, and half the time I still don't get it, and the other half it turns out that the clues referenced some or other word or fact or something I was not aware of in the first place.

I eventually had to accept that cryptic clues fall in the same category as, say, brain surgery or walking a tightrope over the Grand Canyon, i.e. the largish category of "thing I will never do."


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## Larkenfield (Jun 5, 2017)

*CD mix (5,8)*
Glass, Saariaho 

*Composer who had native heart. (4, 6)*
Bela Bartok, native to Hungary!


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Larkenfield said:


> I would not have wanted to go to Taylor for eye problems - or to the legendary cellist Emanuel Feuermann's lethal proctologist.


Hi Lark. I find this somewhat disquieting since I am preparing for eye surgery right now... :lol:

I can't easily find the story of Feuermann's death. Can you give a reference? Thanks!


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## janxharris (May 24, 2010)

brianvds said:


> Indeed. But I can never work them out, and even when I see the solution, I can seldom work out how it was derived from the clues. And then someone patiently explains it, and half the time I still don't get it, and the other half it turns out that the clues referenced some or other word or fact or something I was not aware of in the first place.
> 
> I eventually had to accept that cryptic clues fall in the same category as, say, brain surgery or walking a tightrope over the Grand Canyon, i.e. the largish category of "thing I will never do."


I also once couldn't get or understand cryptics. 

How about this (non-musical) example:

Clue: GSGE (9,4)

Answer: 'Scrambled Eggs'

If one were to scramble the word 'eggs', one might get GSGE. In this case the clue could also have been EGSG, ESGG, SEGG, SGEG, SGGE, GEGS, GGES, GSEG.


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## janxharris (May 24, 2010)

Larkenfield said:


> *CD mix (5,8)*
> Glass, Saariaho


It's not the answer I had in mind - but if you can justify it then it would be acceptable 

As the clue is extremely difficult I am going say that the answer *isn't* music related.


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## Taplow (Aug 13, 2017)

janxharris said:


> Avison - Charles Avison.
> 
> Did you mean first-rate?
> 
> ...


NO, second-rate ... as in, the second letter of the word "rate" = A


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## janxharris (May 24, 2010)

Taplow said:


> NO, second-rate ... as in, the second letter of the word "rate" = A



........................


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## janxharris (May 24, 2010)

Composition - 'gamine' would be one valid example (6,10)


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## Guest (May 24, 2018)

You're all very good at this. Even though I get the techniques I can't work them out very often.

YYUR
YYUB
ICURYY4ME


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## Eva Yojimbo (Jan 30, 2016)

Larkenfield said:


> *Composer who had native heart. (4, 6)*
> Bela Bartok, native to Hungary!


Correct. The "native heart" was in reference to his first name, as "Bela" means "heart" in Hungarian; but also obviously a reference to the fact that he was so influential in bringing Hungarian folk music to the world.


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## Larkenfield (Jun 5, 2017)

janxharris said:


> It's not the answer I had in mind - but if you can justify it then it would be acceptable
> 
> As the clue is extremely difficult I am going say that the answer *isn't* music related.


 I didn't think so, but no one was coming up with anything. How about there can be more than one solution to the clues? 'CD mix' could mean anything possible under the sun; it's not specific. Anything could be a mix, and the two composers I mentioned could be a mix on one CD. Anyway, if no one's coming up with anything, then supplement clues would be helpful if it's supposed to lead lead to one specific answer.


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## Larkenfield (Jun 5, 2017)

Eva Yojimbo said:


> Correct. The "native heart" was in reference to his first name, as "Bela" means "heart" in Hungarian; but also obviously a reference to the fact that he was so influential in bringing Hungarian folk music to the world.


Whew! Good clues. Cheers.


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## brianvds (May 1, 2013)

janxharris said:


> I also once couldn't get or understand cryptics.
> 
> How about this (non-musical) example:
> 
> ...


Now see, this is a good example of my cryptic blindness. I deliberately looked only at the solution, and not your explanation of how it was derived. Couldn't for the life of me work out where that solution comes from or what it has to do with the clue.


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## Taplow (Aug 13, 2017)

Our hero Noel returns, mostly to get famous overture. (7)


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## janxharris (May 24, 2010)

brianvds said:


> Now see, this is a good example of my cryptic blindness. I deliberately looked only at the solution, and not your explanation of how it was derived. Couldn't for the life of me work out where that solution comes from or what it has to do with the clue.


Did my explanation make sense?

How about this:

Which opinion has this composer? (6)

I would immediately be drawn to the word 'has' and think the 'Which opinion' _has_ or _contains_ something that is the equivalent of 'composer'. If you avoid reading the clue as you would a normal sentence, then it might help - so don't try to think about some opinion a composer has - that just throws you off the solution.

Answer (in invisible white, so swipe to read): Chopin (Whi*ch opin*ion has this composer?)


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## janxharris (May 24, 2010)

Taplow said:


> Our hero Noel returns, mostly to get famous overture. (7)


Leonore

Our h*ero Noel* returns, mostly to get famous overture.


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## janxharris (May 24, 2010)

Unsolved:

*CD mix (5,8)* _ (Answer is not music related and has nothing to do with a CD that you put into your stereo to listen to music from)_

*Composer of impressive tangles (5)
Work but shift contraband (9)
Composition - 'gamine' would be one valid example (6,10)*

*Either the clue or the answer must be music related (or both).*


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## janxharris (May 24, 2010)

Larkenfield said:


> I didn't think so, but no one was coming up with anything. How about there can be more than one solution to the clues? 'CD mix' could mean anything possible under the sun; it's not specific. Anything could be a mix, and the two composers I mentioned could be a mix on one CD. Anyway, if no one's coming up with anything, then supplement clues would be helpful if it's supposed to lead lead to one specific answer.


I agree that alternative solutions are possible - as long as they can be logically derived from the clue. I guess there could be many composers containing 5 and 8 letters which would mean the clue wasn't that well thought out - the answer should tie in very neatly with the clue I would say.

As I said the answer isn't music related. Also it has nothing to do with a CD that you put into your stereo to listen to music from.

Hope that helps.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

That brat Ells gave the name, not to daylight but to that other. (8)


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## janxharris (May 24, 2010)

KenOC said:


> That brat Ells gave the name, not to daylight but to that other. (8)


Rellstab

That *brat Ells* gave the name, not to daylight but to that other.

Ludwig Rellstab likened Beethoven's 14th piano sonata to the moonlight (not to daylight but to that other) shining on lake Lucerne.

I didn't know that till just now. Good clue


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Great catch! I guess that was too easy. Let me think...


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## janxharris (May 24, 2010)

Eva Yojimbo said:


> Composer of impressive tangles. (5)


Ravel?

ravel: a tangle, cluster, or knot.


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## Taplow (Aug 13, 2017)

Hear you have to pay extra at semi-hallowed London venue. (7,4)


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## Taplow (Aug 13, 2017)

janxharris said:


> Ravel?
> 
> ravel: a tangle, cluster, or knot.


And impressive = impressionist


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## janxharris (May 24, 2010)

Taplow said:


> And impressive = impressionist


I thought that but was unable to find verification.


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## Guest (May 26, 2018)

Wigmore Hall ?


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## Eva Yojimbo (Jan 30, 2016)

janxharris said:


> Ravel?
> 
> ravel: a tangle, cluster, or knot.


Bingo!

And some more words to meet TC's character minimum.


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## jegreenwood (Dec 25, 2015)

Error . . . . . . .


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## Taplow (Aug 13, 2017)

Tulse said:


> Wigmore Hall ?


Correct. Care to elaborate on how you came to that?


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## janxharris (May 24, 2010)

Taplow said:


> Correct. Care to elaborate on how you came to that?


I don't quite follow the reasoning of the clue - could you explain please?


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## Euler (Dec 3, 2017)

janxharris said:


> I don't quite follow the reasoning of the clue - could you explain please?


I'm guessing:
to pay = toupée = wig
extra = more
semi-hallowed = half of "hallowed" = hall


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## LezLee (Feb 21, 2014)

Ah! Toupée! Very clever!


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## janxharris (May 24, 2010)

Euler said:


> I'm guessing:
> to pay = toupée = wig
> extra = more
> semi-hallowed = half of "hallowed" = hall


Wow - that's clever. I'd twigged on 'more' but not the rest.


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## janxharris (May 24, 2010)

Unsolved:

*CD mix (5,8)* _ (Answer is not music related and has nothing to do with a CD that you put into your stereo to listen to music from)_
*
Composition - 'gamine' would be one valid example (6,10)*

Apologies, but I'm going edit _Work but shift contraband (9)_ to:
*Work but illegally so? (9)*

*Either the clue or the answer must be music related (or both).*


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## Euler (Dec 3, 2017)

janxharris said:


> Unsolved:
> 
> *Composition - 'gamine' would be one valid example (6,10)*


Enigma Variations (gamine being a variation/anagram of enigma) :tiphat:


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## Euler (Dec 3, 2017)

janxharris said:


> Unsolved:
> *
> Composition - 'gamine' would be one valid example (6,10)*


Enigma Variations (gamine being a variation/anagram of enigma) :tiphat:


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## janxharris (May 24, 2010)

I've editted 'Work but shift contraband (9)' to:

*Work but illegally so? (9)*

Sorry about that.


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## Taplow (Aug 13, 2017)

janxharris said:


> Wow - that's clever. I'd twigged on 'more' but not the rest.


Cryptic clues are always two clues in one. The principal clue is always either at the beginning or end. In my example, it could have been either "hear" (the answer being a verb that means to hear, or something related to it), or "London venue". I was actually looking for the name of a London venue. The rest of the clue is called the_ subsidiary indicator_, and will help you arrive at the answer.

Subsidiary indicators use lots of key words. One example is a word like "somehow", or a phrase such as "mixed up". This indicates an anagram. Another example might be "inside", indicating the clue is some letters within the given word or phrase. I used the key word "hear", which means something in the clue sounds like something else. Hence, "to pay" sounds like "toupée", which is a kind of wig. Toupée + extra = wig + more.

The final part of my clue used the key word "semi", indicating a part of the given word. A key word with the same function is "partly". So ...

Sounds like "toupée" = wig
extra = more
half "hallowed" = hall

Ignore most of the punctuation in a cryptic clue. Unless it's a question mark. They are their own indicators.

Sorry if you already know this, but I know that cryptic crosswords are not well know outside certain corridors of the Commonwealth. Shame ... they're great fun!


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## Euler (Dec 3, 2017)

janxharris said:


> I've editted 'Work but shift contraband (9)' to:
> 
> *Work but illegally so? (9)*
> 
> Sorry about that.


Moonlight sonata?



janxharris said:


> *Composition - 'gamine' would be one valid example (6,10)*


Enigma Variations (gamine being a variation/anagram of enigma) :tiphat:


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## janxharris (May 24, 2010)

Euler said:


> Moonlight sonata?
> 
> Enigma Variations (gamine being a variation/anagram of enigma) :tiphat:


Both correct.


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## Guest (May 26, 2018)

How do you get Moonlight Sonata?


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Not the best. To "moonlight" simply means to have a second job, often a nighttime one. Not normally illegal. "Many instructors moonlight as professional consultants."


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## Guest (May 26, 2018)

I see thanks. 

It should have been (9,6) not (9).


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## Euler (Dec 3, 2017)

Cavity toil in favour of Zwilich at half-ten (16)


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## LezLee (Feb 21, 2014)

KenOC said:


> Not the best. To "moonlight" simply means to have a second job, often a nighttime one. Not normally illegal. "Many instructors moonlight as professional consultants."


It depends where you live!
Yes it does mean to have a second job - often forbidden by your main employer, but in Liverpool it also meant to leave your lodgings surreptitiously in the middle of the night without paying your rent - 'doing a moonlight' (flit). However when I moved to Sheffield, flitting was merely moving house.


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## Larkenfield (Jun 5, 2017)

. . . . . . . .


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## Eva Yojimbo (Jan 30, 2016)

Symphony titled after Heavenly Father. (7)
Symphony that took longer than 3 days to compose (and slightly less to perform). (12)
Symphony with a group of tissues. (5)
Futurama Symphony. (11)
Symphony between a Century and a Decamillenium. (1, 8)


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## janxharris (May 24, 2010)

Ok - my bad re moonlight - not the best clue.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Eva Yojimbo said:


> Symphony between a Century and a Decamillenium. (1, 7)


I assume "A Thousand," Mahler's 8th.

Oh, that's 8 letters. Never mind.


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## joen_cph (Jan 17, 2010)

Eva Yojimbo said:


> Symphony titled after Heavenly Father. (7)
> ....


-> Jupiter, of course.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

This symphony made me laugh uncontrollably until I realized I'd read the title wrong. Then I journeyed through time. (10)


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## joen_cph (Jan 17, 2010)

Eva Yojimbo said:


> ...
> Symphony that took longer than 3 days to compose (and slightly less to perform). (12)
> Symphony with a group of tissues. (5)
> Futurama Symphony. (11)
> Symphony between a Century and a Decamillenium. (1, 7)


Sure about the numbers?


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## Eva Yojimbo (Jan 30, 2016)

joen_cph said:


> -> Jupiter, of course.





KenOC said:


> I assume "A Thousand," Mahler's 8th.
> 
> Oh, that's 8 letters. Never mind.


Yes to both (looks like I miscounted the Mahler!).


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## Eva Yojimbo (Jan 30, 2016)

joen_cph said:


> Sure about the numbers?


I fixed one. I think the rest are correct.


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## Taplow (Aug 13, 2017)

There are a lot of clues in this thread that don't really fit the formula for cryptic crossword clues. As a result I find myself less inclined to try to solve them, as they present either too much of a challenge (not having sufficient indicators), or too little of a challenge (being too close to regular crossword style clues). That having been said, it is really tough coming up with true cryptic clues that are musical. Especially when you consider that most words related to classical music or compositions are not English. I've been wracking my brain for days looking for new ideas.

But do keep this thread going. For those of you less familiar with cryptic crosswords, I recommend having a look at the crosswords on The Guardian's website.


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## Taplow (Aug 13, 2017)

The best I can do at the moment:

The sixth man of god takes archiepiscopal extremes. (9)


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## janxharris (May 24, 2010)

Taplow said:


> The best I can do at the moment:
> 
> The sixth man of god takes archiepiscopal extremes. (9)


Pastoral? 8 letters? - Pastor - man of God - extremes of archiepiscopal are 'a' and 'l'


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## janxharris (May 24, 2010)

Taplow said:


> There are a lot of clues in this thread that don't really fit the formula for cryptic crossword clues. As a result I find myself less inclined to try to solve them, as they present either too much of a challenge (not having sufficient indicators), or too little of a challenge (being too close to regular crossword style clues). That having been said, it is really tough coming up with true cryptic clues that are musical. Especially when you consider that most words related to classical music or compositions are not English. I've been wracking my brain for days looking for new ideas.
> 
> But do keep this thread going. For those of you less familiar with cryptic crosswords, I recommend having a look at the crosswords on The Guardian's website.


I suggested that the answer need not be musical if the clue is.


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## Taplow (Aug 13, 2017)

janxharris said:


> Pastoral? 8 letters? - Pastor - man of God - extremes of archiepiscopal are 'a' and 'l'


Yes, indeed. Too easy?


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## Larkenfield (Jun 5, 2017)

Sorry, but instead of cryptic clue teasers, 
there are an awful lot of brain fatiguers!


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## Euler (Dec 3, 2017)

Eva Yojimbo said:


> Symphony that took longer than 3 days to compose (and slightly less to perform). (12)


Resurrection



Eva Yojimbo said:


> Symphony with a group of tissues. (5)


Organ



Eva Yojimbo said:


> Futurama Symphony. (11)


Turangalila


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## Eva Yojimbo (Jan 30, 2016)

Euler said:


> Resurrection
> 
> Organ
> 
> Turangalila


Yes for all. As per Taplow, I guess I should bone up on my cryptic clues.


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## Taplow (Aug 13, 2017)

janxharris said:


> Pastoral? 8 letters? - Pastor - man of God - extremes of archiepiscopal are 'a' and 'l'


Yes, it seems I can't count. Sorry about that.


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## janxharris (May 24, 2010)

Taplow said:


> Yes, it seems I can't count. Sorry about that.


No worries...................


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## Euler (Dec 3, 2017)

More bewildering gibberish:

Debut symphony is former atoll with de-esser (5)
Axially, this turned out to be a revolutionary quintet (6)
Classical-era symphony is backward in coming forward (10)


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Euler said:


> Classical-era symphony is backward in coming forward (10)


Must be Haydn's 47th.


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## brianvds (May 1, 2013)

janxharris said:


> Did my explanation make sense?


Yes. But:



> How about this:
> 
> Which opinion has this composer? (6)
> 
> ...


Couldn't make head or tails of this one.


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## janxharris (May 24, 2010)

brianvds said:


> Couldn't make head or tails of this one.


Which opinion has this composer? (6)

If you avoid reading the clue as you would a normal sentence then it will help - otherwise, in this case, you'd be trying to think of an 'opinion' of some unnamed composer.

The word 'has' (in the clue) means 'possesses, holds, owns' - so it is possible to read 'Which opinion has' as:

Which opinion possesses ie - the words 'which opinion' possess or contain something. So, re-writing the clue:

Which opinion possesses this composer? or:

The words 'which opinion' possesses the name of a composer:

Whi*ch opin*ion

I hope that helps.


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## janxharris (May 24, 2010)

brianvds said:


> Couldn't make head or tails of this one.


How about this example (again, swipe for invisible answer):

Musical genius revealed in these Abba chords (4)

Answer: Bach - Musical genius revealed in these Ab*ba ch*ords (4)


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Reminds me of the old NY Times crossword clue: Europe has two of them.

The answer is Oslo. The city in Norway and the Oslo in Czech*oslo*vakia.


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## janxharris (May 24, 2010)

KenOC said:


> Reminds me of the old NY Times crossword clue: Europe has two of them.
> 
> The answer is Oslo. The city in Norway and the Oslo in Czech*oslo*vakia.


That's quite a difficult clue.

Have you ever come across this (non-musical) mind bender:

A number of patience? (12)


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## janxharris (May 24, 2010)

Unsolved:

*CD mix (5,8)* _ (Answer is not music related and has nothing to do with a CD that you put into your stereo to listen to music from)_

*Debut symphony is former atoll with de-esser (5)

Axially, this turned out to be a revolutionary quintet (6)*


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## janxharris (May 24, 2010)

A number of patience? (12)

Invisible answer (swipe to reveal):

*Anaesthetist* - play on the word 'number'. 'Numb' to deprive of feeling so 'number' (though its not an actual word hence the question mark in the clue) someone who anaesthetises.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

janxharris said:


> Unsolved:
> 
> This symphony made me laugh uncontrollably until I realized I'd read the title wrong. Then I journeyed through time. (10)


Probably too obscure. It's Spohr's 6th Symphony, "Historical," where each movement is written in the style of a different time period. The misread of the title should be obvious.


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## janxharris (May 24, 2010)

KenOC said:


> Probably too obscure. It's Spohr's 6th Symphony, "Historical," where each movement is written in the style of a different time period. The misread of the title should be obvious.


and i was thinking of hysterical....


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## janxharris (May 24, 2010)

CD mix (5,8) 

Answer: Roman numerals


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## waldvogel (Jul 10, 2011)

A famous compostion:

Nice crap, minus 2 notes. (2, 3)


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## waldvogel (Jul 10, 2011)

Another famous composition:

Mafia boss wants weed, not Maria! (3, 4)


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## waldvogel (Jul 10, 2011)

One more famous composition:

Prurient eats Virginia! (8)


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## waldvogel (Jul 10, 2011)

One more:

Look! A smiling chicken! (9)


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## Eva Yojimbo (Jan 30, 2016)

After reading up a bit on cryptics I'll try posting two legit ones: 

Five hover as front of truck heads out at rush hour. (5, 7)
Old flame found inhabiting Lexus with E! (16)


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## Euler (Dec 3, 2017)

Eva Yojimbo said:


> After reading up a bit on cryptics I'll try posting two legit ones:
> 
> Five hover as front of truck heads out at rush hour. (5, 7)
> Old flame found inhabiting Lexus with E! (16)


Trout Quintet and Nielsen 4 "Inextinguishable".

BTW, "Cavity toil in favour of Zwilich at half-ten (16)" was also Forellenquintett (chamber work for Ellen)


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## science (Oct 14, 2010)

Tulse said:


> YYUR
> YYUB
> ICURYY4ME


Hey, I got this one.


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## brianvds (May 1, 2013)

janxharris said:


> How about this example (again, swipe for invisible answer):
> 
> Musical genius revealed in these Abba chords (4)
> 
> Answer: Bach - Musical genius revealed in these Ab*ba ch*ords (4)


Alas, no luck - told you I can't make head or tails of cryptics. Knowing how they work in principle doesn't help me much; in practice, they never make any sense until someone has not only revealed the answer, but explained in detail how it was derived. (If you had here just revealed the answer, I would have been completely at a loss as to where it came from!)


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## Eva Yojimbo (Jan 30, 2016)

Euler said:


> Trout Quintet and Nielsen 4 "Inextinguishable".


Yes. Still too easy I guess.


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## Guest (May 29, 2018)

One for Science. 

If the *B* MT put :

If the *B* . putting :


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## LezLee (Feb 21, 2014)

I’ve been doing the Guardian & Observer cryptics for over 50 years but I’m completely flummoxed by some clues posted here!
I suppose it’s mainly down to knowing the style of the setter.


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## jegreenwood (Dec 25, 2015)

waldvogel said:


> One more:
> 
> Look! A smiling chicken! (9)


Lohengrin . . . . . .


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## jegreenwood (Dec 25, 2015)

waldvogel said:


> One more famous composition:
> 
> Prurient eats Virginia! (8)


Carnaval? . . . . .


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## jegreenwood (Dec 25, 2015)

waldvogel said:


> A famous compostion:
> 
> Nice crap, minus 2 notes. (2, 3)


La Mer (minus D and E)

I would have clued it as "Sillier orchestral work."


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## science (Oct 14, 2010)

Tulse said:


> One for Science.
> 
> If the *B* MT put :
> 
> If the *B* . putting :


Thanks, but I have to play simpler games.

I'm gonna make up one of these cryptics though.


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## jegreenwood (Dec 25, 2015)

Second of musical duo reversed so suffer in small hole (9)


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## waldvogel (Jul 10, 2011)

Congratulations, jegreenwood!

A composer:

Cooking fat contains confused one; produces capital mug. (7, 9)


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## LezLee (Feb 21, 2014)

waldvogel said:


> Congratulations, jegreenwood!
> 
> A composer:
> 
> Cooking fat contains confused one; produces capital mug. (7, 9)


Hooray! Got one!

Leonard Bernstein


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## waldvogel (Jul 10, 2011)

Another composer:

Sounds sincere, for church down under, boy! (6, 8)


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## jegreenwood (Dec 25, 2015)

waldvogel said:


> Congratulations, jegreenwood!
> 
> A composer:
> 
> Cooking fat contains confused one; produces capital mug. (7, 9)


Leonard Bernstein


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## waldvogel (Jul 10, 2011)

LezLee said:


> Hooray! Got one!
> 
> Leonard Bernstein


Yes it is! Lard contains eon (confused "one"). The rest is by double definition.


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## waldvogel (Jul 10, 2011)

Another composer:

"Great general! Take back Norse god!" (9, 7)


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## waldvogel (Jul 10, 2011)

One more composer: 

Slight tousle followed by bacchanal in Slovakia (6, 10)


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## jegreenwood (Dec 25, 2015)

jegreenwood said:


> Leonard Bernstein


For those who need some more Lenny

https://books.google.com/books?id=C...ine" july 15, 1968&pg=PA72#v=onepage&q&f=true

The puzzle was one of 42 composed by Stephen Sondheim in the late 1960s for New York Magazine.


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