# Organ vs Piano, Which one's harder?



## caters

I remember watching a video from WatchMojo about the top 10 most difficult instruments. At no 9 was the organ and at no 5 was the piano. This didn't seem right to me. I could understand the piano being right in the middle but the organ at no 9 just didn't seem right.

Why would the organ be easier than the piano? No need for sustain pedal is the only reason I can think of.

Here is what makes advanced piano difficult:

Hand crossing is necessary
Written unisons(both hands playing the same note) are impossible to play as 2 of the same note
Fingers reach a speed limit of 32nd notes at quarter note = 120 BPM
Octave leaps
Octaves within triplets
Legato octaves

In principle, everything here except the hand crossing and written unisons would also be true for advanced organ. But here are the reasons the organ seems much more difficult to me than the piano:

Multiple keyboards(I once saw an organ with 12 keyboards. It looked like a box full of keyboards)
Same octave sounds different on different keyboards
Some organs have a lot of knobs right by the keyboards
Foot pedals
More dynamic control is needed

But I hear you say "Piano transcriptions of organ pieces are harder than the original pieces." To that, I would say Yes, at least for Baroque pieces. I mean, there is a spot in the Tocatta and Fugue in D minor, where, as a pianist, my hands get intertwined(hand crossing but in such a narrow window instead of several octaves). This wouldn't be a problem on the organ.

But you could also argue, at least for some pieces, that playing it on the piano would be easier than playing it on the organ, even if it was originally composed for organ. So really, is the organ easier? I don't think so.


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## Krummhorn

Tough question ... in some ways the piano, at least for me, is the hardest of the two to learn. I will never master either as even after 57+ years in my career as a professional organist, I still have lots more to learn. The day I stop learning is the day I keel over into my soup bowl during lunch. 

An organist can enlist one or both feet to play the lowest notes that may be a stretch for the pianist. On the other hand, there are the mechanical aspects of the organ, multiple keyboards (largest playing organ in the world only has 7 manuals), stop selection, expression controls, and lots and lots of coordination as both hands and feet are playing notes simultaneously reading from a 3 staff score. 

Fast forward to the present day . . . my present church position requires that I play both instruments equally. We have multiple services and the piano is solely used for one of those, and a balance of the two (organ/piano) in another service, and organ solo in another service leading hymns, accompanying the choirs, etc. 

I love both instruments equally and am able to switch back and forth with great ease and professionalism. 

I do have a piano at home and regularly use it to practice notes for organ repertoire. My present church is a mere 4 minute drive from home so I can go there any time of the day or night to practice in solitude. My best practice sessions are very very late at night, sometimes after 11:00pm. 

There are some who firmly believe that learning piano should come first before the organ. I am one of those people ... I began with 6 years of private study on the piano, then 6 years of private study on the organ, then another 2 years of organ study in college. I started playing the organ in church in 1961 and continue to do so to this day, now serving a large ELCA Lutheran church with 1,400 members, 4 choirs, 2 pastors, and 4 services, 3 of which I play for as paid/salaried staff member. 

Kh


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## Klavierspieler

The nature of both instruments is such that a composer can compose music of indefinite difficulty; therefore, it's somewhat pointless to ask which is harder...

However, in my very limited experience, I think you're maybe less likely to damage yourself playing the organ. But my Organ experience is very small compared to piano, so I may very well be wrong on that.


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## Jeanette Townsend

I would think it also largely depends on the musician. Different people have different experiences, so their answers will of course also be different.
It's also kind of like asking whether a cello is more difficult than a violin. There are inherent advantages and disadvantages for each.
I would think that it's more difficult for beginners to learn the organ without any experience with a keyboard instrument, than it is to learn the piano. In, advanced piano or organ, I would also think that the organ is more difficult because of all the knobs and treads. 
It would also depend on what type of organ is being discussed. Reed, pump, pipe? I've only played a pump organ once or twice, but I figured it out pretty quickly, at least enough to play a simple piece for a small audience.
But if I tried to play a reed or pipe organ, I'm quite certain I'd have a lot more difficulty.
And if an organist with no experience on the piano tried to play, they may just have to get accustomed to the different pedals. I doubt it would take long for them to get a piece out. 
So I would then conclude that the organ in general is probably a more difficult instrument. 
But I also don't have a whole lot of experience.


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## philoctetes

My first instrument was Hammond organ at age 6. Later I took some piano lessons, but never have been proficient at either. 

I think at 6 the organ might have been easier than the piano, for me, just by how it responds to touch and has more of a "vocal" sound. I don't recall having much of an appreciation of the piano at that age, but this is maybe about exposure and environment.

I guess the early experience sticks. I still play wheezy honky wind instruments and enjoy organ music by Messiaen, Franck, and that acid jazz thing too, Lonnie Liston Smith, Larry Young etc...


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## JasonHolloway

The basic difference between the organ and the piano is the durability or how long the notes can sustain. It is more in organ than piano. Because of the air pressure when you press the key in the organ it moves throughout the pipe of the string and it can sustain the tune for longer time and in piano it can withhold for few seconds and then it dies. But, so many beginners feel easy to learn playing the organ than pianos. But most of the professional player says, it is easy to play piano as maintaining the sustain is easy with the control in pedals. In organ all the sustaining functions of the notes should be handled with fingers and it is little difficult to achieve when compared to piano. But the regular practice makes everything easier so it is better to own the musical instruments like portable keyboard piano or digital pianos at home.


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## David Pinnegar

It depends on the definition of harder and of how well one wants to play. 

To play the piano well . . . um . . . that's hard. 

But to enjoy oneself at the piano in a very amateur way is another matter.

As commented above the organ gives the opportunity of feet to play the bass, making the left hand very lazy so making the piano very much harder but the organ involves so many things to think about concurrently . . . in that is the difficulty.

Best wishes

David Pinnegar


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## sevennotes

For me wasn’t hard, because I think the keyboard work is a little easier than the piano. On organ, you don’t need to worry about pressure on the keys and the keys themselves are usually very light but I have a harder time with on piano. The main challenge was the bass pedals. The expression pedals were pretty self-explanatory, but the bass pedals require a whole other level of harmonic awareness.


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## Mandryka

With quite a bit of organ music, if the musician is playing a church organ, he has the opportunity to adapt the piece to the instrument, choosing registrations for example. And then there’s the question of the room, the acoustic of the church, to take into account, the delay for the sound to get to the audience, and the effects of reverberation.


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## Krummhorn

Mandryka said:


> . . . if the musician is playing a church organ, he has the opportunity to adapt the piece to the instrument, choosing registrations for example . . .


So very true. And often times the suggested registrations (by the composer) were based upon the instrument he or she was playing at the time the piece was written. We don't all have access to 3 and 5 manual consoles or hundreds of ranks of pipes. We must adapt to the particular instrument that is at our disposal.

If a composer indicated a 32' stop for the pedal registration and the organ I'm playing at the time doesn't have a 32' pedal stop, I will still consider playing the piece ... not all of us have 32' pedal stops on our pipe organs. Most of the larger electronic/digital do, however.

For 34 years I was the organist in a church with a II/9 Moller Pipe organ. I played many concerts on that organ including the Chorale No 3 in A minor (Franck) and the Sonata I (Mendelssohn) and many other large organ works. We work with the resources we have at our disposal.

Kh


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## Zofia

Good post OP I play both and find the organ is much harder but I am less practiced with the organ.


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## dannyrichardson

I think the organ is far harder since you have to worry about the feet!


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## Krummhorn

dannyrichardson said:


> I think the organ is far harder since you have to worry about the feet!


It's easier to learn that you might think. There are excellent method books for learning to play the pedals which is part of the regimen for 1st year organ students.

It's almost like driving a car - we know where the clutch, break and gas pedals are without looking, right? Organists learn to play the pedals by rote, and lots of practicing. I seldom look down at my feet - they do their thing, and my two hands do theirs and it all works out together.


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## Daniel7

The Hammond organ is completely different than the pipe organ. Some mechanical action pipe organs have a very heavy action.... much heavier than piano and they also have more pedals. Then, you have to learn hundreds of different stop names. I really do like the Hammond organ, though.


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## Daniel7

I forgot to mention that there are definitely hand crossings in romantic organ music. On a side note, It’s easy to use the sustain pedal on the piano, but the organ does not have that sustain pedal so everything that’s Legato is done with the hands. Very difficult is you’re not used to that.


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## Daniel7

If you’re playing electro pneumatic organs then yes, the action is light, but not on mechanical action organs... the action can be extremely heavy depending on how many keyboards you have coupled together. It can be much heavier than the piano.


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## chu42

Organ is harder to learn, since there is an increased coordination required between hands and feet. 

On the other hand, piano is harder to master. The dynamics and colors vary more, there are a higher variety of advanced techniques, and tone quality/articulation can be much more pronounced on the piano. 

Furthermore, the repertoire is deeper. While there are incredibly difficult works for organ, the piano has been the de facto instrument for virtuoso writing since its invention. Perhaps only the violin has a similar or greater amount of difficult works written for it.


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## amfortas

David Pinnegar said:


> It depends on the definition of harder and of how well one wants to play.
> 
> To play the piano well . . . um . . . that's hard.


Is that in part because "well" has been defined by such a rich legacy of extraordinary live and recorded performances? It seems the bar for piano playing has been set incredibly high.


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## Varick

Having played the piano most of my life and never playing the organ, I can't say which is more difficult. Given the fact that mastering the piano can take a lifetime; technique, shading, performance, etc. I may be wrong, but I can't imagine the organ doesn't have similar obstacles. I remember standing at the organ at Saint Bartholomew's Church in NYC (after hearing an amazing recital of all Bach's Preludes and Fugues) and thinking, "Good Lord, look at all those levels of keys, pedals, stops, and levers!" I thought it must be 20 times harder to play that thing. But again, I've never played, so I'll listen to those who play both.

V


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## chu42

Varick said:


> Having played the piano most of my life and never playing the organ, I can't say which is more difficult. Given the fact that mastering the piano can take a lifetime; technique, shading, performance, etc. I may be wrong, but I can't imagine the organ doesn't have similar obstacles. I remember standing at the organ at Saint Bartholomew's Church in NYC (after hearing an amazing recital of all Bach's Preludes and Fugues) and thinking, "Good Lord, look at all those levels of keys, pedals, stops, and levers!" I thought it must be 20 times harder to play that thing. But again, I've never played, so I'll listen to those who play both.
> 
> V


Organ is the "king of instruments"-certainly there is a lot of nuance, but definitely not as much as the piano. For example, playing a really really good pianissimo is one of the most difficult things to do on the piano but I've never heard any organist truly play what you would call pianissimo. And there just isn't as much room for articulation or phrasing. Of course you can play detached, and you can play connected, but there seems to be so much reverb out of the organist's control that I can't imagine that he has nearly the amount of options that a pianist has. In many ways the organ is the opposite of the harpsichord-where the harpsichord has no choice but to project a delicate, detached, quality, the organ has no choice but to project a regal, majestic, sound. The piano has more freedom with both spectrums while never fully committing to either one.

This is why one can take works written for the harpsichord/organ and transcribe them for the piano and not lose too much of the original intent. But if one were to transcribe a Scarlatti sonata for the organ, or a Brahms intermezzo for the harpsichord, bad things might happen.

This isn't knocking the organ in any way but this is just what I can hear with my own ears, having never played the instrument myself.


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## anonymousboi

step one: stop watching watch-mojo


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## ejw

I was going to mention that. A lot of people who may have experimented with a Rodgers or Allen, or may have played some on an elector pneumatic action pipe organ might think that all organs have light action. They obviously have not played a tracker/mechanical-action organ. Even uncoupled manuals you still have a little bit of resistance, like pushing a lever with a spring. When an organist couples manuals, it becomes even heavier. Granted modern trackers have Barker levers (amazing invention of Aristide Cavaille-Coll, but even with that, the St Suplice organ when all 5 manuals are coupled, is said to be rather heavy. Daniel Roth must have some strong fingers. I love Cavaille-Coll organs, but as an organist myself, I prefer electro-pneumatic action.

Someone else mentioned difficult music, virtuosity, etc,. Again, there is a lot of organ repertoire that requires extreme virtuousity to play. Most anything by Marcel Dupre, Vierne, Reger, the Durufle Tocatta, Demessieux Six Etudes, a lot of Cesar Francks literature is difficult. J.S. Bach's Trio Sonatas require virtuosity in spades to play well and cleanly. There is just as much virtuosity in organ literature as in piano literature. Each instrument has its own particular demands on the skills and talents of the musician on the bench of that particular instrument. Also, almost all concert and professional church organists can play the piano at an advanced level. Can many concert pianists play the organ at an advanced level? I do know some that do, but not as many as the other way around.


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## 59540

The organ. A virtuoso organist can probably transition more easily to other keyboard instruments than a pianist or harpsichordist can. Walcha, Karl Richter and Rübsam, for example.


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## Parley

Organ I would imagine. Playing a fugue with your feet!


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## ejw

dissident said:


> The organ. A virtuoso organist can probably transition more easily to other keyboard instruments than a pianist or harpsichordist can. Walcha, Karl Richter and Rübsam, for example.


Walcha and Richter were very skilled harpsichordists. In fact, most concert caliber organists tended to have studied harpsichord is their secondary instrument and visa versa. That said, I know All three of these organists were skilled at the piano. Richter was a conductor as well. Every organist that I know started on the piano. To enter conservatories and schools of music at Universities, all keyboard majors invariably need to audition on piano, usually at least one or two pieces of literature from the Baroque, Classical, Romantic, and 20th century eras. Same as harpsichordists as well. That is because having a foundation in piano and piano technique is so important. It also shows just how important the piano is in the music world. Many schools and conservatories require some piano proficiency to study any area of music, including orchestral instruments and voice. I guess one could say, "The organ is the King of Instruments, while the piano is the Prime Minister." Yeah, I know, sounds corny, but maybe I just penned a new quote. I love all three of the major keyboard instruments. I am an organist; I have been an organist/choirmaster at various churches.


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## 59540

ejw said:


> Walcha and Richter were very skilled harpsichordists. In fact, most concert caliber organists tended to have studied harpsichord is their secondary instrument and visa versa. That said, I know All three of these organists were skilled at the piano. Richter was a conductor as well. Every organist that I know started on the piano. To enter conservatories and schools of music at Universities, all keyboard majors invariably need to audition on piano, usually at least one or two pieces of literature from the Baroque, Classical, Romantic, and 20th century eras. Same as harpsichordists as well. That is because having a foundation in piano and piano technique is so important. It also shows just how important the piano is in the music world. Many schools and conservatories require some piano proficiency to study any area of music, including orchestral instruments and voice. I guess one could say, "The organ is the King of Instruments, while the piano is the Prime Minister." Yeah, I know, sounds corny, but maybe I just penned a new quote. I love all three of the major keyboard instruments. I am an organist; I have been an organist/choirmaster at various churches.


True, but the thing is I don't know that if you set Martha Argerich, Murray Perahia or András Schiff at the console of a pipe organ that they would know how to proceed.


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## ejw

chu42 said:


> Organ is the "king of instruments"-certainly there is a lot of nuance, but definitely not as much as the piano. For example, playing a really really good pianissimo is one of the most difficult things to do on the piano but I've never heard any organist truly play what you would call pianissimo. And there just isn't as much room for articulation or phrasing. Of course you can play detached, and you can play connected, but there seems to be so much reverb out of the organist's control that I can't imagine that he has nearly the amount of options that a pianist has. In many ways the organ is the opposite of the harpsichord-where the harpsichord has no choice but to project a delicate, detached, quality, the organ has no choice but to project a regal, majestic, sound. The piano has more freedom with both spectrums while never fully committing to either one.
> 
> This is why one can take works written for the harpsichord/organ and transcribe them for the piano and not lose too much of the original intent. But if one were to transcribe a Scarlatti sonata for the organ, or a Brahms intermezzo for the harpsichord, bad things might happen.
> 
> This isn't knocking the organ in any way but this is just what I can hear with my own ears, having never played the instrument myself.


Actually, you make some good points. However, an organ can be very soft depending on the stops and ranks chosen. If one were to use only soft string stops like a Celeste or Harp stop, it would be very, very soft. If one chooses a loud reed like a State Trumpet, French Horn, Tuba Maribus stop it would project a very powerful sound where conversation would be difficult.

Another thing that hasn't been brought up when it comes to the musical skills of organists, particularly concert caliber organists and cathedral organists. Improvisation. The Art of Improvisation has largely been subdued and pushed out in most conservatories and university schools of music with the exception of Organ performance. It is a very important skill in the toolbox of an organist as in church services, particularly churches that are very liturgical. In the great churches and cathedrals of Europe, the titular organists are required to and expected to improvise on a mass theme. These are intricate and dense improvisations, and very, very beautiful. Organists such as the titulaires of Notre Dame and St. Sulpice (Olivier Latry and Daniel Roth) will improvise and a theme associated with a mass, rendering a beautiful passage of music that can go on for 10+ minutes. I would say that takes an extreme amount of musicality, creativity, and certainly advanced virtuosity. One can listen to these talented organists on YouTube and enter into a YouTube search of organ improvisations.

There are concert pianists that still improvise, and a movement is being made now to return improvisation to the repertoire of the piano - and I believe this is a good idea. I know the Helene Grimaud is skilled at improvisation, but having to make her name amongst a nation that is well-known and famous for their talented titular organists, it is incumbent that French pianists have a solid footing in improvisation. It is taught in their conservatories. Hopefully, the US follows suit.


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## ejw

dissident said:


> True, but the thing is I don't know that if you set Martha Argerich, Murray Perahia or András Schiff at the console of a pipe organ that they would know how to proceed.


I do know that most conservatories and schools of music do require some study of organ and harpsichord for piano majors. I had a friend that has an MM in Piano Performance who was asked to be his church's organist and choirmaster. He played the pipe organ rather well. Of course, he had taken some study on organ performance, which did help. Concert pianists have to put so much time into performing on their primary instument, coupled with travel and other aspects of their lives, probably would find it difficult to put time into another complex instrument such as the organ. Glenn Gould played the organ, though I think because of his back injuries, he never developed a supple pedal technique and tended only to play Baroque literature


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## ejw

Parley said:


> Organ I would imagine. Playing a fugue with your feet!


Or a Revolutionary Etude ala Cameron Carpenter. :tiphat:


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