# Moral Dilemma: Speaking with foreigners



## violadude (May 2, 2011)

This isn't a super intense Sophie's choice type moral dilemma or anything, but it's something that crossed my mind this morning. My girlfriend is from Thailand so since I've dated her I've met a lot of her friends. Some of her friends are not very fluent English speakers and speak in broken English. When I am typing to them, I find myself purposefully using broken English as well. I feel like it would help them follow the conversation easier if I used their own speech patterns, I'm trying to make it easier on them. But sometimes think, what if I am actually talking down to them? Or it comes across that way. Not sure, what do you guys think?


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

I don't think it's a good idea. Just because someone speaks broken English doesn't mean they can't read proper English. I'm speaking from experience, as my long time partner is Vietnamese.


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

My wife is Chinese, and quite proficient in English. However, when I write her an email I make sure not to use too obscure words. I never used broken English, never had to, and I would not recommend it either. Keep it simple but correct English,


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## violadude (May 2, 2011)

Aw  I feel kinda stupid now...

looks like I'm not the only one into Asian chicks  lol


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## Polednice (Sep 13, 2009)

Yes, keep it simple, but don't deliberately use incorrect structures. I know that one of my very close French friends particularly appreciates it when I tell her that she's said something wrong.


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## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

There can be the odd side issue as well - we have a fair few Poles living in our town and one said to me that although their knowledge of English is limited in varying degrees they have more difficulty understanding the broad Birmingham/West Midland accents of their workmates then they do the language itself.


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## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

elgars ghost said:


> There can be the odd side issue as well - we have a fair few Poles living in our town and one said to me that although their knowledge of English is limited in varying degrees they have more difficulty understanding the broad Birmingham/West Midland accents of their workmates then they do the language itself.


I found it impossible to understand that lingo when I worked there. But they understood me, and could do TV English if they wanted to.


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## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

Hilltroll72 said:


> I found it impossible to understand that lingo when I worked there. But they understood me, and could do TV English if they wanted to.


Where, Birmingham or Poland? :lol:


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## jurianbai (Nov 23, 2008)

don't broken english use, eventually, teach them better english you by speaking normal.


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## science (Oct 14, 2010)

jurianbai said:


> don't broken english use, eventually, teach them better english you by speaking normal.


This me for works.

The way by, Korean word order really difficult is. I it to use have learned because I myself of very am proud.

Now I cereal of a bowl will eat.


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## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

elgars ghost said:


> Where, Birmingham or Poland? :lol:


Birmingham... though West Midland and Polish are equally unintelligible to me. There were Scots shipyard workers staying at the same hotel as I during my first stay in Spain, near Cadiz. I understood them when they wanted me to.


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## kv466 (May 18, 2011)

Speaking with foreigners is just a part of daily life here


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## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

kv466 said:


> Speaking with foreigners is just a part of daily life here


That opportunity must exist in every metropolitan area; not so much out here in the sticks.


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## science (Oct 14, 2010)

Hilltroll72 said:


> Birmingham... though West Midland and Polish are equally unintelligible to me. There were Scots shipyard workers staying at the same hotel as I during my first stay in Spain, near Cadiz. I understood them when they wanted me to.


When my cousin from southern Appalachia called me in Korea, my roommate from Manchester answered the phone. A few seconds later they hung up: both of them thought the other one was a Korean who couldn't speak English.


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## Rasa (Apr 23, 2009)

Ick, foreigners...


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## jurianbai (Nov 23, 2008)

usually the harder part are structures and funny things called tenses, the word metamorphosis also, eat ate eaten,.. well we usually just simplified everything and say eated.


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## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

Reading Science and Hilltroll72's posts about accent barriers reinforces my opinion that what we all need is a portable iPod-sized Speech Simplification facility - if there's any doubt as to what's said either face-to-face or over the phone press a button and - hey presto! - a holographic speech bubble containing a generically understandable 'translation' appears.


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## Crudblud (Dec 29, 2011)

An old Japanese friend of mine was fairly fluent, although it would be obvious to any native English speaker with no prior knowledge of him that it wasn't his first language. We would exchange informal mini lessons for our respective languages and such, it was fun, but we don't really see/talk to eachother anymore.

Anyway; I don't think anyone appreciates being talked down to when conversing with a native speaker in a foreign language.


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## science (Oct 14, 2010)

elgars ghost said:


> Reading Science and Hilltroll72's posts about accent barriers reinforces my opinion that what we all need is a portable iPod-sized Speech Simplification facility - if there's any doubt as to what's said either face-to-face or over the phone press a button and - hey presto! - a holographic speech bubble containing a generically understandable 'translation' appears.


A former student of mine, who worked for Microsoft I believe, told me that at a meeting between Japanese and Russian businessmen, they'd planned to speak English. But neither of them could understand the other group's English. So they got a native English speaker who was able to understand both groups, and both groups could understand him, so he "translated" simply by repeating what they said.


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## eorrific (May 14, 2011)

violadude said:


> This isn't a super intense Sophie's choice type moral dilemma or anything, but it's something that crossed my mind this morning. My girlfriend is from Thailand so since I've dated her I've met a lot of her friends. Some of her friends are not very fluent English speakers and speak in broken English. When I am typing to them, I find myself purposefully using broken English as well. I feel like it would help them follow the conversation easier if I used their own speech patterns, I'm trying to make it easier on them. But sometimes think, what if I am actually talking down to them? Or it comes across that way. Not sure, what do you guys think?


If you don't show them how the language works, when will they ever learn correct English? :lol:


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## Taneyev (Jan 19, 2009)

Don't talk to a foreigner. And if one of them talks to you, don't answer.


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## Yoshi (Jul 15, 2009)

I am guilty of this. After talking to my italian boyfriend for a while I unconsciously started adding italian words to my setences and changed a bit of the verb order. Even if he understands my language without a problem! Now I can't stop and it's weird because I find myself doing huge grammar errors that I don't do with anyone else. I'm pretty sure I did this to my previous russian boyfriend too... it was really not intentional for me I realized what I was doing when it was too late and couldn't change back. 
After all this time talking to foreign people I feel like I can't speak my own language :lol:.

Edit: I remembered I had a friend who also talked in broken english... and yes I talked in broken english too! I am beyond help...


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## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

I remember cringing with embarrassment when English football manager Steve McClaren took over the Dutch team FC Twente. In one interview for Dutch TV - which was conducted in English - he attempted to ingratiate himself by dropping his broad but perfectly understandable Yorkshire accent and instead give his approximation of a Dutch inflection to his words in the manner of Dutch people speaking English. My pal, who's originally from Leiden, was in hysterics - he thought McClaren sounded as if he'd just emerged from a dope cafe.


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## aleazk (Sep 30, 2011)

well, aside from my love to classical music, I joined this forum as a way to improve my english as well. (see me, mummy, me talk anglish!)


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## MrPlayerismus (Jan 2, 2012)

English is a pretty easy language(no offense there,since I love English)but I learnt it just from playing games and conversing with other people and foruming...Did I say foruming?I should take back some things...


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## Chrythes (Oct 13, 2011)

I'd also advice using simple English instead of a broken one, she might even get used to it and start speaking better English herself. 
About the accents - when I came to Scotland half a year ago I barely could understand what they were saying. When I got my job the _accent_ barrier became even worse as I had to deal with costumers and sometimes I had really hard time understanding them, and I didn't always get what the manager was asking me to do.
But I got used to it, and now I basically fully understand what my colleagues talk about and what the costumers ask for.


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## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

"costumers"? What job is this?


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## Moscow-Mahler (Jul 8, 2010)

A friend of mine was in Israel this summer. When he asked some guy: "Could you tell me the way to .... please?" as they teach us at school, the guy looked at him *in horror.* So my friend said: "Where to go? Here or here?".

So, simple English is the best. I found that even in Germany not everybody understand complex English - and btw, many of them make a typical error: they answer "please" (to "thank you") instead of "you are welcome" or "not at all". In German (and in Russian) you can use "bitte" as the answer to "danke", but as far as I understand in English it is not correct.

I have never been in the UK, but even my teachers of English language were shocked by the variety of dialects in Great Britain. They did not understand even local TV programs sometimes. In Russia dialects are less variable I suppose. And all mass-media use Moscow dialect only. Maybe it is not democratical, I don't know.


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

Best off typing in whatever language they know best.


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## aleazk (Sep 30, 2011)

Moscow-Mahler said:


> A friend of mine was in Israel this summer. When he asked some guy: "Could you tell me the way to .... please?" as they teach us at school, the guy looked at him *in horror.* So my friend said: "Where to go? Here or here?".
> 
> So, simple English is the best. I found that even in Germany not everybody understand complex English - and btw, many of them make a typical error: they answer "please" (to "thank you") instead of "you are welcome" or "not at all". In German (and in Russian) you can use "bitte" as the answer to "danke", but as far as I understand in English it is not correct.
> 
> I have never been in the UK, but even my teachers of English language were shocked by the variety of dialects in Great Britain. They did not understand even local TV programs sometimes. In Russia dialects are less variable I suppose. And all mass-media use Moscow dialect only. Maybe it is not democratical, I don't know.


In spanish (my native language), when someone says to you "Gracias" ("thank you"), you can answer "No es nada" or "No hay de qué" (equivalent to the english response "not at all"), BUT ALSO you can say, making some gesture of modesty with your body expressions, "Por favor" (equivalent to the questioned english response "please").I suppose that this response it's actually a contraction of "Por favor, no es nada". In this case, the "Por favor" serves to reinforce the supposed modesty in the response. In spanish, "Por favor" has exactly the same uses that in english has the word "please".


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## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

Moscow-Mahler said:


> ...even my teachers of English language were shocked by the variety of dialects in Great Britain. They did not understand even local TV programs sometimes. In Russia dialects are less variable I suppose. And all mass-media use Moscow dialect only. Maybe it is not democratical, I don't know.


This is true about accents in the UK - I think us Brits can't see it objectively as we seem to expect all nations who have just one language to have as many different dialects as us. My home town is a good example of how little one has to travel to find a completely different accent - about 15 miles north and you have the Birmingham/West Bromwich dialects and about 20 miles south or west and you get a dialect that is near enough pure West Country.

I'm surprised at Russia, though - for such a vast country I thought there would be more difference there especially with the large distances that there often are between one city and the next.


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## Chrythes (Oct 13, 2011)

> "costumers"? What job is this?


Retail... 
Seriously, I had no idea what is a throw, fitted sheets or a duvet before, and these are the easy ones I guess. I still don't know how some items are called in the store. 
So combined with their accent it sometimes took me a while to decipher what they wanted.



> So, simple English is the best. I found that even in Germany not everybody understand complex English - and btw, many of them make a typical error: they answer "please" (to "thank you") instead of "you are welcome" or "not at all". In German (and in Russian) you can use "bitte" as the answer to "danke", but as far as I understand in English it is not correct.
> 
> I have never been in the UK, but even my teachers of English language were shocked by the variety of dialects in Great Britain. They did not understand even local TV programs sometimes. In Russia dialects are less variable I suppose. And all mass-media use Moscow dialect only. Maybe it is not democratical, I don't know.


You can find that "please" in Lithuanian as well, so some people here also use it incorrectly when speaking English. 
The dialect used in the mass media of my country is also the dominant one. I guess it's the easiest way, as basically everyone can understand it, while not everybody can understand the other dialects.

E.g I hardly can understand what a person with Žemaičių dialect says, while they understand my "normal" dialect easily. But those dialects are dying here and it's a shame. Many who speak them are villagers or grandmas and grandpas. Not many young people use it anymore as most must learn the "normal" one if they want to get into a university or a college. It's quite a cultural loss.


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## Moscow-Mahler (Jul 8, 2010)

*elgars ghost*
There are of course some dialctical differinces in Russian langauge. In the North they say sometimes :"ya:" insread of "ye:" in the words such as "pya:tukh" instead of petukh (the cock, I mean the bird). On the South the Russian is a little bit like Ukrainian.

Though, I suppose there is no such thing as *social dialects* in Russian, at last in accent and pronounciation, maybe only in vocabulary. And I think because of more faster urbanisation and "school-ification" (not gradually as in Europe, but very fast in XX century) the difference between regional dialects were smoothen. In XIX they were bigger I suppose, but when no one were interested in them.

And I think there is no analogue with that situation with so-called "Received Pronunciation" in Russian language, which as far as I understand is now beeing critisized as snobbish, high-classed, etc.

*Chrythes*

Yes, maybe dialects is a part of culture that we ought to save, though it's very difficult. I was speaking mostly not from culturological, but from a philistine's, a tourist's point of view.


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

There are two things you can do to make yourself more intelligible when speaking to non-native speakers of English without distorting the grammar.

1. Because english is stress-timed - ie we stress "content" words, and run all the grammar words together, it can be difficult for people to pick out individual words. So slow down and pronounce individual words more clearly.

2. Avoid using idioms if possible: eg say _I can't understand this _instead of _I can't make head or tail of this_, or _let's get some food_ rather than _let's grab a bite_.


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

If you walked with a pronounced limp, would you feel more comfortable if your friends mimicked that limp whenever you were together?

Do you shift your regional English 'accent' to that of the visiting person from the American Deep South, New England, the Brit, the Aussie? If you did I think it would be perceived as condescending or mocking, not thoughtful 

You are doing the person for whom English is a second language no good service unless you speak and write normally.

The person for whom English is the second language has moved into the country and -- assumed -- is here to stay.

Ergo, they _must deal with it_ constantly. That is one part of what they have 'signed up for.' It is counterproductive to speak with / write to them in some variant of pidgin.

P.s. and as per MamaScarlatti's excellent advice, avoid colloquialisms, casual idioms, and -- surprise, almost everyone is sloppy with enunciation and hasty with speed when speaking their native language -- cleaning that up, and not speeding, are both really helpful for the non-native speaker.


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## Head_case (Feb 5, 2010)

> If you walked with a pronounced limp, would you feel more comfortable if your friends mimicked that limp whenever you were together?


The british awards for funniest comedian translation of a word:

"Lymph" - to walk with a lisp


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## Head_case (Feb 5, 2010)

The other ones are definitely after prime time children's reading. 

Define: "Cuticle"

Jo Brand: "A very nice looking testicle."


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

A lot of people claim they are "bi-lingual," but it turns out that all they have is a working conversational knowledge. It irritates me when I hear them brag about knowing "more languages than me" or being given training positions. Just give it time, and the weaknesses will begin to show; large gaps in nouns and verbs, inability to pronounce written words, clumsy syntax, inability to train people or explain processes, can't read technical manuals or detailed instructions, etc. etc.

I'm sure not going to "dumb down" my English just to make them feel more comfortable; I'll just use a sign language of gestures and demonstrations, or draw a diagram.

I'm certainly not going to worry about it to the point of starting a thread; it's their obstacle to deal with (until it becomes mine).


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## Head_case (Feb 5, 2010)

Not at all. 

Bilingual means you can greet someone "Have a nice day" in your official tongue, and swear at the same time in your head using your mother tongue. 

Watch this tongue - I'm bilingual:


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## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

millionrainbows said:


> A lot of people claim they are "bi-lingual," but it turns out that all they have is a working conversational knowledge. It irritates me when I hear them brag about knowing "more languages than me" or being given training positions. Just give it time, and the weaknesses will begin to show; large gaps in nouns and verbs, inability to pronounce written words, clumsy syntax, inability to train people or explain processes, can't read technical manuals or detailed instructions, etc. etc.
> 
> I'm sure not going to "dumb down" my English just to make them feel more comfortable; I'll just use a sign language of gestures and demonstrations, or draw a diagram.
> 
> I'm certainly not going to worry about it to the point of starting a thread; it's their obstacle to deal with (until it becomes mine).


That reads like my experience in the 'other' context. In Mexico I had to teach monolingual factory workers how to operate machines, while having approximately 2 dozen words of Spanish and no syntax. The machine controls had pictorial labels which in (someone's) theory illustrated their purpose; some of them were unclear to me, and apparently most of them were unclear to the workers. The plant manager's secretary had taken an English course, and when I was sufficiently frustrated came onto the floor and interpreted. I learned later that her course did _not_ include any of the mechanical terms necessary. After a month of gestures, garbled Spanish and a little schoolboy Latin, I thought the machine operators and maintenance people had figured it out. I learned on a return trip a few months later that they had not; the machines were in a sad condition. All this happened about 30 years ago, but the memories are still distressing; I cannot go on.


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

millionrainbows said:


> A lot of people claim they are "bi-lingual," but it turns out that all they have is a working conversational knowledge. It irritates me when I hear them brag about knowing "more languages than me" or being given training positions. Just give it time, and the weaknesses will begin to show; large gaps in nouns and verbs, inability to pronounce written words, clumsy syntax, inability to train people or explain processes, can't read technical manuals or detailed instructions, etc. etc.
> 
> WHich all
> 
> ...


That all breaks down immediately when the ''business' is a matter of significant others / matters of the heart


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## science (Oct 14, 2010)

PetrB said:


> That all breaks down immediately when the ''business' is a matter of significant others / matters of the heart


In which case my rugged good looks, inarticulate charm, thoughtful gifts, and trappings of wealth certainly serve well enough.


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## Ingélou (Feb 10, 2013)

Yes, the UK is full of interesting accents & the English often complain that they can't understand the Scots. I'm half-English, half-Scots, & when I was fourteen was visiting my grandfather in Dundee. He had a very strong accent & a slurry voice too - e.g. said 'lather' for 'ladder'. We were alone in the kitchen & he said something unintelligible. I smiled politely. He repeated it, & I smiled again. Finally, very slowly & clearly, he enunciated 'Were you bor-r-r-r-r-r-n in a bar-r-r-r-r-r-n?' i.e. Was I used to airy spaces. He was asking me to shut the door!

I agree with Art Rock & the others. Use simple English sentences & speak slowly, but not incorrect grammar as that is teaching bad habits. As an English teacher, I've often had foreign nationals as students & been impressed by how quickly they learn. Young people wanting to socialise have a very powerful incentive & are at the optimum learning age too.

Interesting thread!


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## Taggart (Feb 14, 2013)

elgars ghost said:


> Reading Science and Hilltroll72's posts about accent barriers reinforces my opinion that what we all need is a portable iPod-sized Speech Simplification facility - if there's any doubt as to what's said either face-to-face or over the phone press a button and - hey presto! - a holographic speech bubble containing a generically understandable 'translation' appears.


Old Joke: Translation program was given the phrase "The spirit is willing but the flesh is weak" and translated it into Russian and then back into English where it appeared as "The vodka's great but the steaks are lousy".

Another example is this from Pete Seeger:






Lyrics here.


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## Flamme (Dec 30, 2012)

English is not my native language and in contact with foreigners face to face i sometimes get too confused or ''frozen'', without obvious reason, cause i have ability to have an correct conversation...


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## Ingélou (Feb 10, 2013)

Flamme said:


> English is not my native language and in contact with foreigners face to face i sometimes get too confused or ''frozen'', without obvious reason, cause i have ability to have an correct conversation...


It's something the brain does - sympathies. So many times in my violin lesson I'm playing a well-practised piece & I seize up - can't follow the music or my hands won't work. A sudden wave of nerves, but completely involuntary.

I wish I could speak any other foreign language as well as you speak English!


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## Flamme (Dec 30, 2012)

In my Head, when i imagine an conversation with a stranger, i can talk for hours, but on the street sometimes, i cannot explain an direction, not cause i dont know but...


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## Flamme (Dec 30, 2012)

Btw. Thanks... Not of any practical use for my job today, tomorrow we will see...It's an irony people who dont know english well are on positions to talk with strangers, but those who do...Ofcourse i'm not implying anything


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