# How to get more familiar with C clefs



## caters

The C clefs always trip me up. I constantly have to think:



> Where is the C line? Which clef is it closer to? Treble or Bass?


As a result I always think of the C clefs as being relative clefs. Alto clef being relative to treble clef and tenor clef being relative to bass clef respectively. So I constantly transpose back to treble clef or bass clef. This partly comes from me being a pianist and thus only coming across these C clefs in scores involving viola, bassoon, and trombone which are usually massive symphonies.

Anyway, this relative clef thing isn't really working to get me familiar with the C clefs and what if I want to compose a piece with a bassoon solo? Most bassoon solos are in tenor clef. Very few are actually fully in bass clef and likewise, almost none are in treble clef even though the treble register is part of the bassoon's range. Thus, if I'm writing for bassoon, I can focus more on bass clef when it is in harmony with another instrument such as a piano but for solos, most important clef would be the tenor clef.

So, if relative clefs aren't working to get me familiar with C clefs, then how else am I going to get familiar with them because I'm not a violist or a bassoonist so I can't just read a note in alto clef or tenor clef and automatically know what note it is. I only automatically know the notes in treble clef and bass clef.


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## mikeh375

Caters,

You've implied the answer already. If you have already learnt to read treble and bass, then you can learn to read the c clefs. Write out music you have into the c clefs for practice, do this regularly and you'll soon become fluent with them. Next you'll want to transpose horn parts down a fifth at sight..... Remember too that if you master the tenor clef, you will have a better grasp of transposition for bflat instruments if you replace the tenor clef with the g clef.


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## Phil loves classical

I think of the Alto clef as right between both treble and bass, and the lines and spaces are the same from middle C. So I only have to get used to the offset, rather than relearning the positions relative to top and bottom


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## Vasks

How interesting! When the term "C clef" is the topic, one poster thinks tenor clef and another alto clef.


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## Vasks

caters said:


> Anyway, this relative clef thing isn't really working to get me familiar with the C clefs and what if I want to compose a piece with a bassoon solo? Most bassoon solos are in tenor clef. Very few are actually fully in bass clef and likewise, almost none are in treble clef even though the treble register is part of the bassoon's range.


Lots of bassoonist post at TC, but let me say that bassoon uses lots of bass clef except when they stay for a while in their stratosphere; then use the tenor clef. They DO NOT use ever treble.


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## mikeh375

Vasks said:


> How interesting! When the term "C clef" is the topic, one poster thinks tenor clef and another alto clef.


Strangely enough Vasks, I can easily sight read the alto clef and can "see" horn and sax parts at concert pitch whilst reading scores, (yes even the alto sax!) but there is always a half second hesitation with the tenor clef. Maddening really, but it only affects my instantaneous reading of scores, not when writing. I need more practice too in order to overcome what might be termed cleflexia....or perhaps just another glass of wine instead because it's not the worst problem one could have...


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## Vasks

...............


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## mikeh375

Nice one Vasks.
How do you keep your violin from being stolen?
Put it in a viola case...

(with apologies to the OP)


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## caters

mikeh375 said:


> Nice one Vasks.
> How do you keep your violin from being stolen?
> Put it in a viola case...
> 
> (with apologies to the OP)


You don't have to apologize to me. Besides, I too have troubles with certain transpositions. The easy ones for me are Bb and octave. With Bb I just have to think 1 whole step higher so if I am wanting the clarinet to play a C in concert pitch, I would write a D. And the octave transposition is very obvious from the instrument itself(piccolo, an octave up from notation, contrabass, an octave down from notation). Tricky ones for me are F and G mainly(not in terms of the note names but rather whether it goes up or down to reach it because there are instruments in every combination of up/down and F/G in terms of transposition).

And then there are the clefs outside of treble and bass which are tricky for me because I'm a pianist so I pretty much never come across those clefs outside of orchestral music.


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## Heck148

Vasks said:


> Lots of bassoonist post at TC, but let me say that bassoon uses lots of bass clef except when they stay for a while in their stratosphere; then use the tenor clef. They DO NOT use ever treble.


There are some times when bassoon parts are written in treble clef....not too often, but occasionally.


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## Vasks

Heck148 said:


> There are some times when bassoon parts are written in treble clef....not too often, but occasionally.


Of course, I too have seen it, but here's what Adler says in his Orchestration book: "_The bassoon is notated in the bass clef, but when ledger lines begin to accumulate, the tenor clef is used_." That's all he says. Nothing at all about treble.

And the Kennan Orchestration book says "_When the part goes too high to be comfortably written in the bass clef, the tenor may be used_". Again that's all that is said about clefs. I do find his use of the phrase "may be used" interesting as it suggests rarely using it.

In the end, almost all composers and arrangers today don't use the treble ever. And with caters being a beginner I see no reason to give wiggle room to consider using treble clef.


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## mbhaub

It's true. treble clef is quite uncommon in bassoon parts, but pops up especially in Prokofieff.

Here's a challenge: these are the four solo voice parts from the Beethoven 9th. The three lower voices are in alto, tenor, and bass clef. Look at the soprano. Don't see that much. Just try to play all four voices, up to tempo, on piano. You don't have time to transpose or think - you just have to read it and let the fingers move.


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## mikeh375

Goddamn C clefs....as if we don't have enough to learn to be decent at music. I'll pass on learning to sight read the soprano clef if you don't mind mbhaub...:cheers:


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## mbhaub

I agree. When I was studying conducting, the teacher would suddenly say, "You! Sing the soprano part at this point. NOW!!!!" Students today (aka snowflakes) would die. Hated it at the time, but I have to say that treatment made me a better musician. Clefs and transposition - no problem!


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## nobilmente

If you _really_ want to do this at a more general level, then consider working through Arnold Schoenberg's _Preliminary Exercises in Counterpoint_: it uses the old clefs quite a bit, and is exceedingly thorough on the various flavours of species counterpoint.


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## Ros

Hi.

Sight-reading in some clefs might be tricky and needs practice. C clefs in particular...

In these videos, I tried to simplify the world of clefs, aiming to answer typical questions such as what clefs are and why they are important, how to write them and what is the differerence between them, how to read confidently in all the clefs. 
You can watch them altogether by clicking on this playlist:
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL2M43rG9kdvxIDGRxXXFqWVJzwgxWZJbT

Enjoy it!


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## Enthalpy

Some bassoon scores use the treble clef, so bassoonists must read it and composers can write it. If writing up to conventional F, the tenor clef might still suffice with 4 ledgers, but a bassoon can play higher.

I too have difficulties with the tenor clef, but the investment in music is so huge that there is no way to get rid of the past. So, just go on reading the tenor clef like a bass clef with two lines difference.


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## Enthalpy

One damn good reason for bassoonists to read the treble clef is to steal cello music. Even if playing the high notes an octave lower, the bassoonist must read them, and they are naturally in treble clef, as the cello has more range upwards.


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