# Most Revolutionary Piece of Each Century



## Tchaikov6 (Mar 30, 2016)

From the 16th through 21rst centuries, what do you think have been the most revolutionary- or, what piece do you think has changed the course of music history the most.

*for 20th century- It's fine to put Rite of Spring as your top entry, but I'm curious what people's "runner-ups" are.


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## MarkW (Feb 16, 2015)

17th: Monteverdi Vespers
18th: Goldbergs
19th: Eroica
20th: (Rite of Spring); L'Histoire du Soldat (after much cogitation) 
21st: absolutely no idea


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## Rys (Nov 26, 2016)

17th-L'Orfeo, Monteverdi's first attempt at opera. I'm not an expert and can't pinpoint a specific piece his music (most of which I'm not familiar with anyways), so I'll go for the first attempt. I'm sure it started Monteverdi's career of revolutionizing music. 
Perhaps if he hadn't written this opera, future Italian composers wouldn't be so attached with composing operas.

18th-Sonatas of Scarlatti. Again I'm not that familiar with these, I'm more of a romantic guy. (pun intended). Without these piano and the sonata form of Haydn and Mozart would not carry the weight they do today.

19th- Beethoven Symphony no. 3, need any more evidence.



Tchaikov6 said:


> *for 20th century- It's fine to put Rite of Spring as your top entry, but I'm curious what people's "runner-ups" are.


Besides playing piano in a jazz band in high school, my knowledge of jazz isn't top notch. So I can't pick out a single song. Still, I'll argue that jazz was the most revolutionary music created in the 20th century. Without jazz radio would be flooded with the classics, folk songs, and show tunes.

I wonder how terrible it was to live before Cage invented silence?


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## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

16th: des Prez's Missa Pange Lingua
17th: Gesualdo's Miserere
18th: Mozart's Don Giovanni
19th: Berlioz's Symphonie Fantastique
20th: Bartok's Music for Celesta Percussion and Strings
21st: Rihm's String Quartet 11


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## AfterHours (Mar 27, 2017)

I'd have to think about the 16th and 17th centuries a bit more, but for the others, I'd probably go with the following. Perhaps the 18th and 21st century selections are more arguable than the 19th and 20th. I don't know, just off the top of my head...

18th
Don Giovanni - Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart (1787) [Goldberg Variations - Johann Sebastian Bach (1741)] 
19th
Symphony No. 9 in D Minor "Choral" - Ludwig van Beethoven (1824) [Tristan und Isolde - Richard Wagner (1859)] 
20th:
The Rite of Spring - Igor Stravinsky (1913) [The Velvet Underground & Nico - The Velvet Underground (1967)] 
21st:
Disappeared - Spring Heel Jack (2000) [Fluxations - Denman Maroney (2001) or Fear Death By Water - Franz Koglmann (2003)]

Note: It's actually too early to tell for the 21st century, but so far those two/three might be the most revolutionary that I'm aware of and should prove very influential sooner or later. If we're going purely by influence (and not as much by how _musically revolutionary_ the work actually is) than perhaps Radiohead (_OK Computer/Kid A/Amnesiac_), and Neutral Milk Hotel's _In the Aeroplane Over the Sea_ have been the two most derived from/inspirational in that regard, so far at least -- (Yes, _OK Computer_ and _In the Aeroplane Over the Sea_ were released at the end of the 20th century: 1997; 1998).


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

I would think Mozart's Marriage of Figaro was more revolutionary than Don Giovanni because in the former there was some serious mocking of the aristocracy...a dangerous thing at the time.


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## AfterHours (Mar 27, 2017)

hpowders said:


> I would think Mozart's Marriage of Figaro was more revolutionary than Don Giovanni because in the former there was some serious mocking of the aristocracy...a dangerous thing at the time.


Could be, I don't really have an argument against Figaro being there instead.


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## Bettina (Sep 29, 2016)

16th century - Josquin: Missa L'homme armé. 

17th century - Monteverdi: Orfeo

18th century - Beethoven: Piano Sonata No. 8, "Pathetique" (it was written in 1798, so it counts as 18th-c...just barely!)

19th century - Wagner: Tristan und Isolde

20th century - Schoenberg: Three Piano Pieces Op. 11 (the first fully atonal pieces that anyone had ever written.)


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## AfterHours (Mar 27, 2017)

Bettina said:


> 16th century - Josquin: Missa L'homme armé.
> 
> 17th century - Monteverdi: Orfeo
> 
> ...


Well said. I think you should be able to get away with the Pathetique, unless the OP cracks down hard on this!


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## AfterHours (Mar 27, 2017)

Rys said:


> Besides playing piano in a jazz band in high school, my knowledge of jazz isn't top notch. So I can't pick out a single song. Still, I'll argue that jazz was the most revolutionary music created in the 20th century. Without jazz radio would be flooded with the classics, folk songs, and show tunes.


If I were to extend my 20th century choices past 2, works like Ornette Coleman's Free Jazz and Shape of Jazz to Come, John Coltrane's A Love Supreme, Miles Davis' Bitches Brew, and so forth, would've started showing up before long.


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## AfterHours (Mar 27, 2017)

hpowders said:


> I would think Mozart's Marriage of Figaro was more revolutionary than Don Giovanni because in the former there was some serious mocking of the aristocracy...a dangerous thing at the time.


I could also be talked into his 40th and 41st Symphonies, and his 20th Piano Concerto without too much arm twisting.


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## brianvds (May 1, 2013)

Instead of disputing the choices already made, I'll add some (because can we ever really single out any one work, in a whole century?)

18th century: Bach's WTC. A work explicitly written to promote a more modern tuning system. Plus, Bach's use of counterpoint ended up casting a very long shadow, into the 20th century and beyond.

19th century: The very first thing that came to mind was Beethoven's Eroica (and indeed much else that Beethoven came up with!) but I see it has already been mentioned. The other obvious choice is Wagner. So I'll be contrarian and nominate Liszt's Bagatelle without tonality. 

20th century: First thing that comes to mind is Rite of Spring, which, unsurprisingly, has already been mentioned. The other obvious choice is Schoenberg, all the way. Of course, for a while there during the 20th century, composers vied for the title of most absurdly revolutionary, so the century abounds with the new: 4'33" comes to mind, of course, and stuff like Stockhausen's Helicopter quartet.

We're too early in the 21st century to tell, but it looks as if, at the moment, there is a movement in the opposite direction from the constant revolution of the 20th century. Composers are beginning to realize that being completely original is not necessarily the same thing as actually being any good. Perhaps this century's most revolutionary works will be precisely the most conservative ones.


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## Chronochromie (May 17, 2014)

First thought on seeing the thread: most people will want to name Bach for the 18th century for some reason...

18th: Rameau - Hippolyte et Aricie (1733)
19th: Berlioz - Symphonie Fantastique (1830)
20th: Debussy - Prélude à l'après-midi d'un faune (1894) If it isn't allowed it should be.


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## AfterHours (Mar 27, 2017)

brianvds said:


> Instead of disputing the choices already made, I'll add some (because can we ever really single out any one work, in a whole century?)
> 
> 18th century: Bach's WTC. A work explicitly written to promote a more modern tuning system. Plus, Bach's use of counterpoint ended up casting a very long shadow, into the 20th century and beyond.
> 
> ...


Oh yes! WTC! Of course!


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## Magnum Miserium (Aug 15, 2016)

Rys said:


> Besides playing piano in a jazz band in high school, my knowledge of jazz isn't top notch. So I can't pick out a single song. Still, I'll argue that jazz was the most revolutionary music created in the 20th century. Without jazz radio would be flooded with the classics, folk songs, and show tunes.


Show tunes are jazz (until the 1970s, after which point show tunes are basically soft rock) and nobody listens to jazz radio.



AfterHours said:


> [The Velvet Underground & Nico - The Velvet Underground (1967)]
> 21st:


You misspelled "La Monte Young"

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17th - Monteverdi, 5th book of madrigals
18th - Haydn, "Russian" string quartets, Op. 33
19th - Beethoven, 9th symphony 
20th - Debussy, "Pelleas and Melisande"


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## Magnum Miserium (Aug 15, 2016)

hpowders said:


> I would think Mozart's Marriage of Figaro was more revolutionary than Don Giovanni because in the former there was some serious mocking of the aristocracy...a dangerous thing at the time.


Not in Germany. It may have been Emperor Joseph's idea that Mozart and da Ponte should set Beamarchais' play in the first place (and of course they expurgated the most political part of the play, Figaro's big speech in the last act). Making fun of the aristocracy was perfectly acceptable under a regime that saw itself as an Enlightened despotism allied with the sensible liberal bourgeosie.

France was of course a somewhat different story, but Mozart wasn't working in France.

Musically, on the other hand, there's certainly a case for seeing "Figaro" as more revolutionary than "Don Giovanni" since the latter is barely an advance on the former in any respect except that it gets really loud and dark at the end.


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## Magnum Miserium (Aug 15, 2016)

Chronochromie said:


> 18th: Rameau - Hippolyte et Aricie (1733)
> 19th: Berlioz - Symphonie Fantastique (1830)


Those are good choices!


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## Chronochromie (May 17, 2014)

Magnum Miserium said:


> 17th - Monteverdi, 5th book of madrigals
> 18th - Haydn, "Russian" string quartets, Op. 33
> 19th - Beethoven, 9th symphony
> 20th - Debussy, "Pelleas and Melisande"


Good call on the Monteverdi. I was about to put Pelleas for the 20th century too but settled for the Faun.


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## Magnum Miserium (Aug 15, 2016)

Chronochromie said:


> I was about to put Pelleas for the 20th century too but settled for the Faun.


I'm basically cheating as much as you anyway, since the piano score for "Pelleas" was finished in the 19th.


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## Magnum Miserium (Aug 15, 2016)

Alternate answer:

17th - Frescobaldi, 2nd book of toccatas
18th - Mozart, "Don Giovanni"
19th - Wagner, "The Valkyrie"
20th - Young, "The Well-Tuned Piano"


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## superhorn (Mar 23, 2010)

Bruckner's almost completed 9th symphony is the most radical and revolutionary work of the late 19th century , and much of it sounds startlingly 20th century . Parts of it sound startlingly similar to Schoenberg in his pre 12 tone free atonal period . Bruckner was experimenting with radical new harmonies in his last years which anticipate the 20th century . 
There are fierce dissonances , and passages of uncertain tonality , and the climax of the slow movement is a grindingly dissonant chord . Unfortunately , this is was Bowdlerized by 
the individual who revised it for its first performance some years after his death into harmonies which would not shock the listeners of Bruckner's day . . I'm having a mental block trying to remember the name of this Bruckner pupil at the moment, but this was the version used for many years until the original became widely known . 
There is a live recording using this corrupt version by the great German conductor and Bruckner champion Hans Knappertsbush (1888 - 1965 .)


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## AfterHours (Mar 27, 2017)

Magnum Miserium said:


> You misspelled "La Monte Young"


Gee whiz, thanks, you forgot to remind me that there were also symphonies before Beethoven's 9th, therefore it wasn't influential/revolutionary 

Yes, I am aware La Monte Young's minimalism inspired Cale and part of The Velvet Underground's sound. That doesn't discount its revolutionary and massive impact on so much of what's occurred in the last 40+ years.


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## AfterHours (Mar 27, 2017)

Chronochromie said:


> First thought on seeing the thread: most people will want to name Bach for the 18th century for some reason...


I'm not sure how one could have an issue with this unless I am incorrect on the criteria? Choosing Bach for the 18th century does not have to mean he was "the most influential towards the music of the 18th century only" but for me means, "his work was composed in the 18th century and has since been among the most influential".


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## Magnum Miserium (Aug 15, 2016)

AfterHours said:


> Yes, I am aware La Monte Young's minimalism inspired Cale and part of The Velvet Underground's sound. That doesn't discount its* revolutionary *and massive impact on so much of what's occurred in the last 40+ years.


Except it does, because there's a difference between revolutionaries and popularizers.


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## AfterHours (Mar 27, 2017)

Magnum Miserium said:


> Except it does, because there's a difference between revolutionaries and popularizers.


We're not discussing Michael Bolton here. Please direct me to the work that pre-dates The Velvet Underground's music, meaning its actual sound in full -- not just one aspect of its sound.


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## Magnum Miserium (Aug 15, 2016)

AfterHours said:


> We're not discussing Michael Bolton here. Please direct me to the work that pre-dates The Velvet Underground's music, meaning its actual sound in full -- not just one aspect of its sound.


Oh please, you might as well ask me to direct you to work that pre-dates Michael Bolton's "sound in full" - I mean, hey, nobody ever sounds EXACTLY like anybody else! That request is designed so that you never have to admit you're wrong no matter what happens.

But I will direct you to this anyway, just in case you haven't already heart it, just because everybody should:


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## AfterHours (Mar 27, 2017)

Magnum Miserium said:


> Oh please, you might as well ask me to direct you to work that pre-dates Michael Bolton's "sound in full" - I mean, hey, nobody ever sounds EXACTLY like anybody else! That request is designed so that you never have to admit you're wrong no matter what happens.
> 
> But I will direct you to this anyway, just in case you haven't already heart it, just because everybody should:


Good, I am glad we evened this out by each of us seeming equally ridiculous to the other! :tiphat:


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## Magnum Miserium (Aug 15, 2016)

Did you listen to it?


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## StDior (May 28, 2015)

My candidate is Haydn symphony No.6 Le Matin for the 1700's. Written in 1761 just 2 years after death of Handel. Definitely it was very revolutionary piece in its own time.


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## mathisdermaler (Mar 29, 2017)

15th and before - don't know enough about this period (monophony)
16th Missa Papae Marcellus - polyphony
17th Monteverdi - L'orfeo - first great opera/musical theatre
18th Well-Tempered Clavier - well-tempered tuning and counterpoint
19th Tristan und Isolde - romantic grandiosity, dense orchestration, and unresolved dissonance
20th Too hard to pick one.
1. Moses und Aron - epitomal atonal/dodecaphonic work
2. 4'33" (even though I don't like it) - Total music progressivism "anything is music"
3. Einstein on the Beach - extremely modernized return to tonality
21st ???


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## mathisdermaler (Mar 29, 2017)

Magnum Miserium said:


> Oh please, you might as well ask me to direct you to work that pre-dates Michael Bolton's "sound in full" - I mean, hey, nobody ever sounds EXACTLY like anybody else! That request is designed so that you never have to admit you're wrong no matter what happens.
> 
> But I will direct you to this anyway, just in case you haven't already heart it, just because everybody should:


Sorry, but this is not Heroin or Sister Ray.


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## Magnum Miserium (Aug 15, 2016)

mathisdermaler said:


> Sorry, but this is not Heroin or Sister Ray.


Of course not. To begin with, it's smarter. But the question here was about originality - which in the case of "Heroin" consists of creating the same kind of textures John Cale had already been creating 3 years earlier, but this time as accompaniment to a folk-rock song; and in the case of "Sister Ray" consists of some of the principles of the Theater of Eternal Music (playing the same thing over and over again can be good, restricting yourself to an unusually small number of chords or notes for a long period of time can be good, playing as loud and ugly as possible can be good) applied to a generic blues jam and with electric guitar & organ instead of saxophone.

'"Sister Ray' isn't generic blues!' No, but the things that separate it from generic blues come from the Theater of Eternal Music. (Yes I know Lou Reed came up with the "Ostrich" tuning independently and no it doesn't matter.) That's not nothing - to be the first rock band to copy certain aspects of a particular strain of classical music - but it's not as revolutionary as some fans want the Velvet Underground to be either.


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## Orfeo (Nov 14, 2013)

superhorn said:


> Bruckner's almost completed 9th symphony is the most radical and revolutionary work of the late 19th century , and much of it sounds startlingly 20th century . Parts of it sound startlingly similar to Schoenberg in his pre 12 tone free atonal period . Bruckner was experimenting with radical new harmonies in his last years which anticipate the 20th century .
> There are fierce dissonances , and passages of uncertain tonality , and the climax of the slow movement is a grindingly dissonant chord . Unfortunately , this is was Bowdlerized by
> the individual who revised it for its first performance some years after his death into harmonies which would not shock the listeners of Bruckner's day . . I'm having a mental block trying to remember the name of this *Bruckner pupil* at the moment, but this was the version used for many years until the original became widely known .
> There is a live recording using this corrupt version by the great German conductor and Bruckner champion Hans Knappertsbush (1888 - 1965 .)


I believe that was Ferdinand Lowe, who premiered it in Vienna in 1903.


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## Portamento (Dec 8, 2016)

17th cenutry - Buxtehude Trio for harpsichord violin/flute cello
18th century - Bach Coffeee cantata
19th century - Brahms clarinet quintet
20th century - Milhaud string quartet #5 or Miaskovsky symphony #27
21th cenutry - Julia Wolfe Anthracite Fields!


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## Tchaikov6 (Mar 30, 2016)

Listening to Mozart's 25th piano concerto right now, I am definitely thinking this is one of his most revolutionary works- maybe not the most revolutionary of the 18th century, but worthy of mention. Some chord progressions are shockingly Romantic or even Modern- major minor changes very quickly. I love it, and much of it so Romantic- like Schumann almost, or Liszt- in spirit.


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## Tallisman (May 7, 2017)

Phil loves classical said:


> 16th: des Prez's Missa Pange Lingua
> 17th: Gesualdo's Miserere
> 18th: Mozart's Don Giovanni
> 19th: Berlioz's Symphonie Fantastique
> ...


I second the choice of Gesualdo. Blew my mind how progressive he was when I first heard his madrigals


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