# Classical vocal music



## janxharris (May 24, 2010)

I'm often put off from listening to opera and other such vocal works because I don't enjoy the singing style. I have a hunch that it is the (in my view) over use of vibrato that is the problem. 

Anyone else have similar issues?


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## janxharris (May 24, 2010)

I guess I'm alone on this one.


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## jenspen (Apr 25, 2015)

janxharris said:


> I guess I'm alone on this one.


You are not alone. I've read complaints about vibrato in other threads.

I guess you're not including C17 and C18 operas - Handel, Monteverdi and others - which require a purer, more focussed style of singing? Also required by religious vocal music of the C16, C17 and C18.

"Other such vocal works" include songs to piano accompaniment I guess? The songs of Schubert, Schumann and others are among the glories of classical music and require the singer to exercise a great deal of control over their voice.

Maybe there's a good explanation for singers choosing to use a wide vibrato. I'd welcome explanations. To me, it's ugly in itself and it makes ensemble singing very ugly indeed. But, you notice that even those children who win praise on television for their powerful, mature singing, even those very pre-teens, have been taught to use vibrato.


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## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

jenspen said:


> You are not alone. I've read complaints about vibrato in other threads.
> 
> I guess you're not including C17 and C18 operas - Handel, Monteverdi and others - which require a purer, more focussed style of singing? Also required by religious vocal music of the C16, C17 and C18.
> 
> ...


Manipulation of the musical opinion. Just like curving your fingers when playing the piano. How come Horowitz, and Arrau didn't?


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

janxharris said:


> I'm often put off from listening to opera and other such vocal works because I don't enjoy the singing style. I have a hunch that it is the (in my view) over use of vibrato that is the problem.
> 
> Anyone else have similar issues?


I've never been a fan of vibrato singing. How do you feel about vibrato from string instruments? I dislike that even more than from the voice. String vibrato in baroque works is a killer.


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## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

Bulldog said:


> I've never been a fan of vibrato singing. How do you feel about vibrato from string instruments? I dislike that even more than from the voice. String vibrato in baroque works is a killer.


Agree. Vibrato in strings in baroque sure ain't HIP.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

It isn't helpful to lump all forms of vibrato together. What that does is to use a single term to cover a range of effects which sound quite different from one another. Completely vibratoless tone is suitable only for certain styles of music (very few, I would say), and would sound inappropriate or ugly in others. Different styles are well-served by different sorts of vibrato. On the other hand, some of what's called "vibrato" is simply a manifestation of vocal dysfunction, and would be recognized as such by a voice teacher or a knowledgeable listener.

As regards opera and classical singing in general, I and others have made some remarks in the following thread (as well as in past threads) that might be helpful:

http://www.talkclassical.com/47869-vibrato-der-ring.html


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

Woodduck said:


> On the other hand, some of what's called "vibrato" is simply a manifestation of vocal dysfunction, and would be recognized as such by a voice teacher or a knowledgeable listener.


Then there must be a lot of vocal dysfunction on some of my cd's.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Bulldog said:


> Then there must be a lot of vocal dysfunction on some of my cd's.


There is, there is - or there might be. Notice I did say "some."

Regarding vibrato in string playing, you must be aware that Baroque specialists don't play with no vibrato ever. Vibrato was recognized as expressive in that era; it just wasn't applied as intensely and continuously as in later styles of music.


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## jenspen (Apr 25, 2015)

Woodduck said:


> ....
> 
> As regards opera and classical singing in general, I and others have made some remarks in the following thread (as well as in past threads) that might be helpful:
> 
> http://www.talkclassical.com/47869-vibrato-der-ring.html


Very helpful technical information in that thread, thanks. Now I'm wondering not so much "why many opera singers choose to employ wide vibrato" and rather "why those who run the classical music business continue to employ singers with such vocal problems".

What does the OP think of these three sopranos - Barbara Schlick, Christine Schäfer and Elly Ameling :














(because they sound just right for these different parts of the repertoire, to my ears).

I have even more favourite baritones and tenors ...


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

Woodduck said:


> Regarding vibrato in string playing, you must be aware that Baroque specialists don't play with no vibrato ever. Vibrato was recognized as expressive in that era; it just wasn't applied as intensely and continuously as in later styles of music.


I am aware. You're referring to historical accuracy: I was expressing only my dislike of string vibrato. In small doses, I can handle it.


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## brianvds (May 1, 2013)

janxharris said:


> I guess I'm alone on this one.


Nope. I have that exact same issue: a lot of classical singing sounds terribly off-key to me, or like the singer isn't singing one and only one note at a time. And I suspect it's all the vibrato that causes this. I definitely prefer older styles of singing, without so much vibrato, and simpler music - the more technical demands a piece makes, the more likely it is that the singer won't cope with it well enough to sound musical. Well, to my own, subjective experience anyway.

I also seem to prefer high male voices and low female ones: I find female sopranos monstrously shrill, while bass and baritone voices strike me as kind of "fuzzy" (though they sound marvelous in a choir, mind you).


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## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

i find the vibrato more distracting in later Italian operas. In Mozart's operas, I find it musical. In Monteverdi's Vespers, I find it essential.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

janxharris said:


> I guess I'm alone on this one.


What if you are, do you really care?
I wouldn't.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Bulldog said:


> I am aware. You're referring to historical accuracy: I was expressing only my dislike of string vibrato. In small doses, I can handle it.


Speaking of historical accuracy, some think that even 19th-century orchestras played with no string vibrato, but that's debated by others. Roger Norrington has made recordings of Romantic repertoire based on this theory. It may work OK in Mendelssohn and Schubert, but his attempts at Wagner and Tchaikovsky are loathsome (though that may have as much to do with his rigid, lickety-split tempi as with the string playing).

In any repertoire, sensitivity to the innate qualities of the music should dictate what kind and degree of vibrato a player employs. I doubt that there was ever one "correct" approach. Variety is, and always was, the spice of life.


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## janxharris (May 24, 2010)

jenspen said:


> Very helpful technical information in that thread, thanks. Now I'm wondering not so much "why many opera singers choose to employ wide vibrato" and rather "why those who run the classical music business continue to employ singers with such vocal problems".
> 
> What does the OP think of these three sopranos - Barbara Schlick, Christine Schäfer and Elly Ameling :
> 
> ...


All three irritate me - almost certainly because of the vibrato...but, since I have never heard a classical vocalist sing without then I can't be sure.


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## janxharris (May 24, 2010)

Bulldog said:


> I've never been a fan of vibrato singing. How do you feel about vibrato from string instruments? I dislike that even more than from the voice. String vibrato in baroque works is a killer.


Indeed - I particularly dislike it in violin concertos - its over use makes the music sound too weak...as if the sound is trembling...

Mind you, I love this: 'The Lark Ascending'.

Perhaps because it suits the representation of a fluttering bird.


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## janxharris (May 24, 2010)

jenspen said:


> You are not alone. I've read complaints about vibrato in other threads.
> 
> I guess you're not including C17 and C18 operas - Handel, Monteverdi and others - which require a purer, more focussed style of singing? Also required by religious vocal music of the C16, C17 and C18.


I didn't know that...thanks. I haven't listen to much - I guess I have just been put off.



> "Other such vocal works" include songs to piano accompaniment I guess? The songs of Schubert, Schumann and others are among the glories of classical music and require the singer to exercise a great deal of control over their voice.


Yes - I have heard some Schubert songs but can never get beyond a few seconds of singing before turning off.



> Maybe there's a good explanation for singers choosing to use a wide vibrato. I'd welcome explanations. To me, it's ugly in itself and it makes ensemble singing very ugly indeed. But, you notice that even those children who win praise on television for their powerful, mature singing, even those very pre-teens, have been taught to use vibrato.


Ugly would seem to be the appropriate description.


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## janxharris (May 24, 2010)

brianvds said:


> Nope. I have that exact same issue: a lot of classical singing sounds terribly off-key to me, or like the singer isn't singing one and only one note at a time. And I suspect it's all the vibrato that causes this. I definitely prefer older styles of singing, without so much vibrato, and simpler music - the more technical demands a piece makes, the more likely it is that the singer won't cope with it well enough to sound musical. Well, to my own, subjective experience anyway.
> 
> I also seem to prefer high male voices and low female ones: *I find female sopranos monstrously shrill*, while bass and baritone voices strike me as kind of "fuzzy" (though they sound marvelous in a choir, mind you).


Indeed........................


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## janxharris (May 24, 2010)

Pugg said:


> What if you are, do you really care?
> I wouldn't.


I would feel a bit peculiar I guess...but it seems I'm not alone.


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## janxharris (May 24, 2010)

Anyone with an example of an aria (or the like) sung without vibrato?


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## Clairvoyance Enough (Jul 25, 2014)

I think this version of Die Winterreise might be an example, but I'm not at all learned in the different styles of singing. I only know that I love this version for how "clean" the singing is.


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## janxharris (May 24, 2010)

Clairvoyance Enough said:


> I think this version of Die Winterreise might be an example, but I'm not at all learned in the different styles of singing. I only know that I love this version for how "clean" the singing is.


I get 'video not available' - can you provide details please?


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## Clairvoyance Enough (Jul 25, 2014)

janxharris said:


> I get 'video not available' - can you provide details please?


Drats; that often happens with these auto-generated youtube channels. The performers are Tini Mathot and Klaus Mertens. It's on Spotify if you have that.

This is them performing some Schubert live.


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## janxharris (May 24, 2010)

I like this but still wince at excessive vibrato moments:

Henryk Górecki Symphony no. 3 - Dawn Upshaw

Example (in my opinion) of excessive use: 





(she calms down at 14m54s).

Thoughts?


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## janxharris (May 24, 2010)

Clairvoyance Enough said:


> This is them performing some Schubert live.


Thanks.
This really doesn't work for me. Could be the song, the vocal timbre, vibrato or a mixture of such.

Please don't think I am dissing your music preferences - I respect everyone's.


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## BabyGiraffe (Feb 24, 2017)

Most people can't stand the "classical" singing recipe - extreme ranges and vibrato.
It's OK in the dramatic moments, but sounds comical in large doses.


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## janxharris (May 24, 2010)

BabyGiraffe said:


> Most people can't stand the "classical" singing recipe - extreme ranges and vibrato.
> It's OK in the dramatic moments, but sounds comical in large doses.


Most? How do you know? If that were plainly obvious then surely classical singers would have moderated their wobble by now?


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## janxharris (May 24, 2010)

Would love to hear the genius of Tristan and Isolde with less wobble:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L44Ml8K_mDg#t=13m50s


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## Clairvoyance Enough (Jul 25, 2014)

janxharris said:


> Thanks.
> This really doesn't work for me. Could be the song, the vocal timbre, vibrato or a mixture of such.
> 
> Please don't think I am dissing your music preferences - I respect everyone's.


I really wish the link had worked because that video does not do the sound of his recorded voice any justice at all, imo.

Anyway, in light of this thread topic I was also somewhat irritated by Ameling's voice in that rendition of Nacht und Traume, but my very first reaction was to be moved because I just like that song in general. If you play me twenty Schubert (or whoever else) songs at random I'll probably only respond to one of them because taste is just selective in that way; having realized that, it wasn't logical for me to blame my struggles with operatic singing on vibrato as often as I used to. I was probably pulling one of the 19 duds out of the bag over and over.

That said, I do prefer the style of singing I hear in baroque and pre-baroque recordings so it's interesting to learn that the difference is noted and real and not just in my head.


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## Clairvoyance Enough (Jul 25, 2014)

janxharris said:


> Would love to hear the genius of Tristan and Isolde with less wobble:
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L44Ml8K_mDg#t=13m50s


Maybe Kleiber's Tristan und Isolde? I'm no expert on it and it's such a huge opera I haven't found the time to learn my favorites or know which ones are wobbly throughout and which ones aren't. I think 1:22:00 is especially beautiful though, and it seems to be sung without too much vibrato; again, totally novice ears here.


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## LesCyclopes (Sep 16, 2016)

janxharris said:


> Anyone with an example of an aria (or the like) sung without vibrato?


I don't know if it's possible to sing completely without vibrato, but how about this one?

Bach - Kreuze und Krone


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## JAS (Mar 6, 2013)

LesCyclopes said:


> I don't know if it's possible to sing completely without vibrato, but his about this one?


Is it that it is not possible, or that it would sound unnatural?


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## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

LesCyclopes said:


> I don't know if it's possible to sing completely without vibrato, but how about this one?
> 
> Bach - Kreuze und Krone


Sure, mostly boys choirs, but generally not encouraged:

http://www.voiceteacher.com/vibrato.html


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## BabyGiraffe (Feb 24, 2017)

janxharris said:


> Most? How do you know? If that were plainly obvious then surely classical singers would have moderated their wobble by now?


Most people that I know - friends, family, ex-lovers, colleagues etc...
Classical vocal music should be the most accessible way to get into the orchestral world, but even people that listen to such music can't stand it.


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## janxharris (May 24, 2010)

BabyGiraffe said:


> Most people that I know - friends, family, ex-lovers, colleagues etc...
> Classical vocal music should be the most accessible way to get into the orchestral world, but even people that listen to such music can't stand it.


That's very interesting. It seems that I am far from alone on this issue.


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## janxharris (May 24, 2010)

Clairvoyance Enough said:


> I really wish the link had worked because that video does not do the sound of his recorded voice any justice at all, imo.
> 
> Anyway, in light of this thread topic I was also somewhat irritated by Ameling's voice in that rendition of Nacht und Traume, but my very first reaction was to be moved because I just like that song in general. If you play me twenty Schubert (or whoever else) songs at random I'll probably only respond to one of them because taste is just selective in that way; having realized that, it wasn't logical for me to blame my struggles with operatic singing on vibrato as often as I used to. I was probably pulling one of the 19 duds out of the bag over and over.
> 
> That said, I do prefer the style of singing I hear in baroque and pre-baroque recordings so it's interesting to learn that the difference is noted and real and not just in my head.


I'm still hearing heavy vibrato though it seems to be held off till the very end of the notes.


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