# Who was the 'Beethoven' of the pre-Baroque era(s)?



## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

Or it can be more than one composer. Maybe up to 3-5 composers.

I was reading something about Josquin des Prez, saying he was like the Beethoven of his era. In terms of Josquin pioneering techniques like imitation and those 'wall of sound' effects in choral music.

Don't take the word 'Beethoven' literally (pretty please!). You can even replace it with _The Big Cheese _for all I care.

In literal terms, Monteverdi comes to mind, as straddling two eras - Renaissance and Baroque - as Beethoven did with Classical and Romantic eras. But as I said, 'Beethoven' is more a codeword for any composer who really made a huge impact on music on his own time and beyond. In the Baroque era proper, it was of course composers like J.S. Bach, Corelli, Vivaldi and Handel who can be described as 'Beethovens' of their own era.

I'm no expert on pre-Baroque period musics, or _Early Music_, incorporating the Medieval and Renaissance periods/styles. But I know a fair few of these composers, partly from reading/listening on this forum.

Anyway, I'm hoping for an interesting discussion and exchange of ideas on this topic. Tell us why you chose the composer/s you did.


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## neoshredder (Nov 7, 2011)

Not one stands out statistically. I can tell you ones the big names but Byrd is probably the one I enjoy the most. He sounds a little like Corelli but less repetitive. The big names include Palestrina, Byrd, Dowland, Bingen, Tallis, Machaut, and Gesualdo. The farther down the list, the farther away in similarities to Baroque (and Beethoven though they aren't similar in the first place). Here is my resource where I started from. http://www.last.fm/music/Ludwig+van+Beethoven/+similar?page=9


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## neoshredder (Nov 7, 2011)

After that, I would check those composers on Amazon to see which cd's get the highest ratings of these composers. But choral music isn't really my thing so I haven't really gotten into it. Hope others can help you more.


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## StlukesguildOhio (Dec 25, 2006)

Well... you'd have to give it to Léonin and Perotin for making the key move from plainchant into polyphonic music. Monteverdi, who you mention, would unquestionably be one of the greatest figures... if not THE greatest before Bach and Handel. His madrigals provide a wealth of ideas for works combining voices and instruments... and the late ones especially push traditional ideas of tonality and utilize rhythmic elements that at time suggest (if obliquely) aspects of jazz. His _Vespro Della Beata Vergine_ or _Vespers of 1610_ was the most ambitious work of religious music before Bach... a 90+ minute work scored for multiple soloists, a large choir often split into smaller separate choir, orchestra, and instrumental soloists... placed in such a manner as to surround the listener with sound. And then we truly must credit Monteverdi with the invention of opera as we know it. _L'Orfeo_ remains the oldest opera still part of the core repertoire.

After Monteverdi, I'd have to go with Gesualdo who brought an incredible degree of expressiveness to his madrigals, and other vocal music... especially the _Lamentations_. Gesualdo pushed the limitations of traditional tonality often emphasizing word expressing extreme emotion: "love", "pain", "death", "ecstasy", "agony", in a manner not to be seen again until Modernism.


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## clavichorder (May 2, 2011)

Monteverdi? He was late-renaissance/early baroque, and is certainly responsible for moving things in the direction of the baroque. I think he kick started the baroque in a manner similar to Beethoven kick starting the romantic?


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## neoshredder (Nov 7, 2011)

Yeah Monteverdi sounds like early Baroque to me as well. But maybe his early works were of the Renaissance style similar to how Beethoven's early works sounded a little like Mozart.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

I think *Palestrina *looms large of those mentioned above. He influenced many, eg. Debussy, Wagner, Bruckner to name three. Possibly Beethoven as well. I can't imagine someone studying choral music today and not going to some depth with Palestrina's music.

Re Tallis and Gesualdo, as far as I see they disappeared off the radar a bit and where revived. Of course, it doesn't matter, so did eg. J.S. Bach.

*Tallis *of course was influential in U.K., Vaughan Williams' _Fantasia on a Theme by Thomas Tallis _was something that bought the music of Tallis & the English Renaissance into the Modern era.

As for *Gesualdo,* his chromatic harmonies kind of disappeared and where bought back in late Romantic era - eg. Wagner, R. STrauss. I think that J.S. Bach though did write like this, Glenn Gould in an interveiw was talking of one of the variations in the _Goldberg Variations_ having the most chromatic textures between Gesualdo and Wagner. I have got a book in which Stravinsky is photographed with conductor Robert Craft at Gesualdo's former palace in Italy. I'd guess that they both where admirers of Gesualdo's music. Can't find the image online.


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## HarpsichordConcerto (Jan 1, 2010)

Many great names already mentioned. Much of the works and the composers contributed to the development of vocal music and polyphony in general. I would probably pick Monteverdi, Palestrina, William Byrd (especially for his instrumental works), Tallis and maybe a few others. I don't know this era as well as I do later eras but it sure offers a fascinating account of music that still sounds very "modern" in its way. Early music goups have been recording so much of this era within the last few decades alone.


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## science (Oct 14, 2010)

I think besides Monteverdi my pick would be Josquin, and maybe also Machaut. If you'll forgive me being a touch idiosyncratic and biased and all that, also Dufay. 

I don't have time just now to explain my choices, but anyway I don't have any insight into them that you couldn't get with a well-spent hour or two with wikipedia, youtube and so on.

Edit: And if you're really in a forgiving mood, let me get away with a plug for Luython. Perhaps nothing like Beethoven, more like Gounod or Milhaud or Massenet or something like that.


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## quack (Oct 13, 2011)

For me it would be Hildegard of Bingen, she may not have pushed music forward as much as others but her liturgical drama can be seen as precursors of opera or oratorio hundreds of years before their time.


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## joen_cph (Jan 17, 2010)

Monteverdi;
based on my limited knowledge, I´d say Gesualdo, Ockegem, Dowland, Tallis and some of the Troubadours for their expressiveness too, albeit in limited genres.


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## KRoad (Jun 1, 2012)

Posters seem to be confusing early Baroque, which where I place Monteverdi, with pre-Baroque. If we accept Monteverdi as legitimate for the purpose of this discussion, then what about Heinrich Schütz? (BTW: Hildegard of Bingen is Medieval according to Grout).


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## Arsakes (Feb 20, 2012)

KRoad said:


> Posters seem to be confusing early Baroque, which where I place Monteverdi, with pre-Baroque. If we accept Monteverdi as legitimate for the purpose of this discussion, then what about Heinrich Schütz? (BTW: Hildegard of Bingen is Medieval according to Grout).


I like choral works of Heinrich Schütz, but he is (early?) baroque. And Monteverdi shouldn't be counted because he's on the border of Renaissance and Baroque.

This pre-baroque Beethoven should be found among Latin Composers (Spaniards and Italians), or English like John Dowland. Sadly, I don't have enough knowledge of that era.


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## joen_cph (Jan 17, 2010)

To my knowledge, many of Monteverdi´s Madrigals for instance "belong" to the Renaissance.


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## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

Is the Meeting of Masters - that signaled the inception of the music Baroque - (in Venice?) fact or legend...?


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## joen_cph (Jan 17, 2010)

Concerning a meeting between Schütz and Monteverdi (in Venice, 1628-29), the main source seems to be the funeral speech for Schütz, cf. 
https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&...habkH5&sig=AHIEtbS3gmagTLTQ66oYJkIa_xXLFS0_yg

1/5 down the text.


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## clavichorder (May 2, 2011)

joen_cph said:


> To my knowledge, many of Monteverdi´s Madrigals for instance "belong" to the Renaissance.


This is why I thought of him. In madrigals he was more of a Renaissance composer, but very "high Renaissance" at that.


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## Toddlertoddy (Sep 17, 2011)

Gesualdo because he was actually a Romantic composer. Everyone has his birth dates wrong.


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## humanbean (Mar 5, 2011)

*Dufay.* A transitional composer, just as Beethoven (Medieval-Renaissance), his music contains elements of both eras.

Many people haven't even heard of him, unfortunately. If you're interested in exploring his music, look at my recommendations in his composer guestbook entry.



> Dufay was one of the last composers to make use of medieval techniques such as isorhythm,[8] but one of the first to use the harmonies, phrasing and expressive melodies characteristic of the early Renaissance.[9] His compositions within the larger genres (masses, motets and chansons) are mostly similar to each other; his renown is largely due to what was perceived as his perfect control of the forms in which he worked, as well as his gift for memorable and singable melody. During the 15th century he was universally regarded as the greatest composer of the time, and that belief has largely persisted to the present day.


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