# At what age is it too late to get really good at the cello?



## Vivara

Hi guys,

Any advice and opinions are greatly appreciated.

I played cello through the Suzuki method from the age of about eight until eleven, and completed the preliminary, grade one and grade two levels with great success. I flew through the Suzuki books and was on Suzuki book four by the time I gave it up for a year due to family circumstances. 

I then went back to the cello for two years until I was fourteen and completed grade three to an OK standard, but nothing fantastic. My interest and playing standard were definitely not as good as before. I gave up the cello because I wasn't interested anymore. I had lost the spark of when I was playing the first time.

Anyway, fast forward another two years and I took it up for six months to basically practice for the practical element of a music exam in my country's exam system. (So while I was playing, I wasn't learning anything particularly new or advancing through the grade system.)

And then a few month's later I took it up on a recreational basis with a cello teacher for a year, without doing anything in the grade system, yet I was doing pieces I enjoyed like the Prelude from Bach's Suite No. 1, and to a reasonable standard at that.

So here I am a year later at seventeen, and I really regret giving up the cello the very first time. I'd love to join my local youth symphony orchestra and would love to go back to the cello, and properly at that.

Is it too late to get really good at the cello? How fast can I move up along the grades or do they have to be done a year at a time? Could I do grade five instead of doing grade four or would I be wasting my time? Like could I do the grade four stuff with a teacher and then move onto grade five within the one year?

And what is the typical standard for youth symphony orchestras in small cities? What grade level? 

I'd be really grateful for any help and encouragement from cellists, teachers and the like with this!

Thanks.


----------



## ComposerOfAvantGarde

It's only too late to improve when it's physically impossible for you to play cello. Since you've already played before I don't think it would take you very long to pick it up again. 

To get into youth orchestras I would have to know the grade system that you use. From where I come from, being AMEB (Australian Music Examination Board) grade 8 and above would be the standard for most youth orchestras.


----------



## Praeludium

That "too late" thing is, I'm convinced, b-u-l-l-s-h-i-t, whatever they say (they maybe say it because they began really early ? And if it doesn't fit what they know, it must be impossible). 
If you tell (format) yourself "it's too late for me I'll never be really good" you sure will never reach this level...

If I were you I wouldn't care about the grades. Just find a really good teacher and work properly, the rest will follow.


----------



## Klavierspieler

"Too late" doesn't exist. Sure, it'll be harder than if you'd learned earlier, and you probably won't become Rostropovich, but it's still possible to become very proficient.


----------



## Abracadabra

Vivara said:


> So here I am a year later at seventeen.


Trust me. Seventeen isn't too late for anything. It wouldn't be too late if you were starting from scratch. The fact that you had already "started" when you were eight is already water over the dam. It would be false to say that you're starting at 17 now anyway.

All you can say at this point is that you didn't really become seriously passionate about it until you were 17, but you still started when you were 8. You can't erase that fact now.


----------



## Vivara

Wow, thanks guys for the reply. I kind of thought exactly what you guys are saying, I just wanted to see what the opinions of those in the musical field would be.

I've picked up the cello today and there's no way I've lost my touch or anything. Sure my vibrato is a bit shaky and it's a bit wobbly, but I was surprised how good I was. 

Thanks again for your thoughts.


----------



## Vivara

Also, I looked at my local youth orchestra, and while they don't have a required standard, grade four is about the right level according to them.


----------



## ComposerOfAvantGarde

Vivara said:


> Wow, thanks guys for the reply. I kind of thought exactly what you guys are saying, I just wanted to see what the opinions of those in the musical field would be.
> 
> I've picked up the cello today and there's no way I've lost my touch or anything. Sure my vibrato is a bit shaky and it's a bit wobbly, but I was surprised how good I was.
> 
> Thanks again for your thoughts.


Thank you so much for that too! I haven't touched my viola for a few months because it was taking up too much of my time, but I need to play viola in some ensemble thingo at my school next term. I feel much more confident now.


----------



## MaestroViolinist

I say go for it and good luck! 17 is not too late, especially if you really started at 8. Also, the Suzuki method is really good.


----------



## ComposerOfAvantGarde

MaestroViolinist said:


> I say go for it and good luck! 17 is not too late, especially if you really started at 8. Also, the Suzuki method is really good.


The Suzuki method *SUCKS* :tiphat:


----------



## Jaws

Suzuki method isn't so good for people who want to play in orchestra, because playing in orchestras is more fun if you can sight read well, and as the Suzuki method is based on not reading music to start with, this can cause problems. 

In the UK someone at 17 would be considered to be an adult. Adults don't need to take grade exams. They are exams for children at school to help them see that they are getting better at playing. What adults need to be able to do is play well with other people. So at 17 there are several things you can do. String quartets are fun. You just need to find a viola and two violins who can play as much as you can and who you get on with. Join an adult amateur orchestra. I am sure that they will be very pleased to have another cello player.


----------



## Vivara

Jaws said:


> Suzuki method isn't so good for people who want to play in orchestra, because playing in orchestras is more fun if you can sight read well, and as the Suzuki method is based on not reading music to start with, this can cause problems.


I can sightread quite well and have played in orchestras before (such as my school of music's junior and senior symphony orchestras). I wouldn't agree that the Suzuki method is based on _not reading music_ but reading music in a _different_ way. For instance, instead of the D string in first position being D, E, F#, G, I know it as D, 1, 3, 4. I mean I can pick up most pieces of music and figure it out, still thinking like this.

I played Suzuki cello the first time (when I was eight until eleven), and my teacher for the next two years I played taught me normally - non-Suzuki - without many issues. Sure, I had to think a small bit when he said 'E' or something, but really that's just bothering to learn it.



Jaws said:


> In the UK someone at 17 would be considered to be an adult. Adults don't need to take grade exams. They are exams for children at school to help them see that they are getting better at playing. What adults need to be able to do is play well with other people. So at 17 there are several things you can do. String quartets are fun. You just need to find a viola and two violins who can play as much as you can and who you get on with. Join an adult amateur orchestra. I am sure that they will be very pleased to have another cello player.


I'm in Ireland. I know adults don't need to take grade exams, but if I can take grade five by skipping grade four and progressing at a nice rate until I'm finished, I'll without doubt be grade 8 standard by I'm twenty. I really don't know what level I'm at, and I think I'm quite rusty, so I definitely need a teacher, so I think I need something to "help me see that I'm getting better at playing". I pick up bad habits quickly, so I certainly need someone to point out when I'm doing something wrong. I want to know my standard and not have many doubts about it. Although I'm fully aware that grades are not the be and end all.

I'm at an awkward age in that most people my age (and most people I know who play the cello) actually play in the local youth orchestra. But the auditions for this year have already passed, and then I'll be nineteen the following year, so I'm pushing the youth bit. I think the next time I can join an orchestra without feeling out of place will be when I'm twenty anyway, and I don't want to feel uncomfortable... so I'm happy to continue doing the grades until I know I'm at a certain standard.

Thanks for the replies guys.


----------



## Jaws

Vivara said:


> I can sightread quite well and have played in orchestras before (such as my school of music's junior and senior symphony orchestras). I wouldn't agree that the Suzuki method is based on _not reading music_ but reading music in a _different_ way. For instance, instead of the D string in first position being D, E, F#, G, I know it as D, 1, 3, 4. I mean I can pick up most pieces of music and figure it out, still thinking like this.
> 
> I played Suzuki cello the first time (when I was eight until eleven), and my teacher for the next two years I played taught me normally - non-Suzuki - without many issues. Sure, I had to think a small bit when he said 'E' or something, but really that's just bothering to learn it.
> 
> I'm in Ireland. I know adults don't need to take grade exams, but if I can take grade five by skipping grade four and progressing at a nice rate until I'm finished, I'll without doubt be grade 8 standard by I'm twenty. I really don't know what level I'm at, and I think I'm quite rusty, so I definitely need a teacher, so I think I need something to "help me see that I'm getting better at playing". I pick up bad habits quickly, so I certainly need someone to point out when I'm doing something wrong. I want to know my standard and not have many doubts about it. Although I'm fully aware that grades are not the be and end all.
> 
> I'm at an awkward age in that most people my age (and most people I know who play the cello) actually play in the local youth orchestra. But the auditions for this year have already passed, and then I'll be nineteen the following year, so I'm pushing the youth bit. I think the next time I can join an orchestra without feeling out of place will be when I'm twenty anyway, and I don't want to feel uncomfortable... so I'm happy to continue doing the grades until I know I'm at a certain standard.
> 
> Thanks for the replies guys.


The first thing is don't worry, you are doing fine.

The second thing that you need to know is that passing a grade exam doesn't give you either a level or a standard. What they do is give you an indication that you have made some improvement.

Grade exams can't give you a level, because nothing else in music can be compared to a grade exam to give a level, except another grade exam. So if you have passed grade 7 your level is grade 7 but only when compared with grade 6 or grade 8.

The reason why a grade exam can't give a standard is a bit more complicated. Grade exams are taken on one day, with one examiner and one set of pieces, studies etc. The examiner gives marks for the pieces, studies etc by having a check list. If you get a pass mark or higher, that means that the examiner has decided that against his check list you have played the pieces/study etc well enough for him to give you a pass mark. However the pass mark only applies to those pieces/ studies etc that you played on that one day. If you then play some other pieces that are not on a grade 8 syllabus you can't say that you have played them at grade 8 standard, because the examiner didn't mark those. So unless you are going to spend the rest of your life only playing the pieces that you did for your exam you can't use the grade exam pass to give you a standard. Your standard is how you play today, tomorrow, next week etc.

If you want to play in an orchestra, the grades don't mean anything, because the skills for playing in an ensemble are completely different to those needed to play solo pieces or pieces with a piano.

What I would suggest that you do is in September when most of the orchestras start again after the summer holidays,(they do that here in London so I have just assumed that they do that in Ireland) try to find one that doesn't take itself too seriously, and then go and have a try at playing in it. I started playing in an adult amateur orchestra when I was about 16. It is important not to stay too long in the same orchestra. The more different ones you try the more people you meet.

Don't forget about string quartets, most string players love playing these. You will meet your string quartet players in the orchestras you join.


----------



## MaestroViolinist

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> The Suzuki method *SUCKS* :tiphat:


ut: No it's not. It's a very good way to learn. :scold:


----------



## ComposerOfAvantGarde

MaestroViolinist said:


> ut: No it's not. It's a very good way to learn. :scold:


It's alright for people who are just starting but its pointless for expieriencined players.


----------



## Jaws

MaestroViolinist said:


> ut: No it's not. It's a very good way to learn. :scold:


It doesn't suit everybody and it doesn't suit every instrument. It works well for violin because you can copy the teacher. It wouldn't work so well for brass instruments, and it wouldn't work so well for double reed instruments.

It is like lots of things it depends on the person who is doing the learning.


----------



## MaestroViolinist

Vivara said:


> I can sightread quite well and have played in orchestras before (such as my school of music's junior and senior symphony orchestras). I wouldn't agree that the Suzuki method is based on _not reading music_ but reading music in a _different_ way. For instance, instead of the D string in first position being D, E, F#, G, I know it as D, 1, 3, 4. I mean I can pick up most pieces of music and figure it out, still thinking like this.
> 
> I played Suzuki cello the first time (when I was eight until eleven), and my teacher for the next two years I played taught me normally - non-Suzuki - without many issues. Sure, I had to think a small bit when he said 'E' or something, but really that's just bothering to learn it.


I started at about 5 with my Grandmother, she didn't neccessarily use Suzuki, but she did write songs using the above mentioned methed (D0 123 etc.). Then not long afterwards I started reading notes, just fun things like Irish/Scottish tunes, and then finally when I got my real teacher when I turned 9 I could read notes well, even though I started off reading just numbers.



Vivara said:


> I'm in Ireland. I know adults don't need to take grade exams, but if I can take grade five by skipping grade four and progressing at a nice rate until I'm finished, I'll without doubt be grade 8 standard by I'm twenty. I really don't know what level I'm at, and I think I'm quite rusty, so I definitely need a teacher, so I think I need something to "help me see that I'm getting better at playing". I pick up bad habits quickly, so I certainly need someone to point out when I'm doing something wrong. I want to know my standard and not have many doubts about it. Although I'm fully aware that grades are not the be and end all.
> 
> I'm at an awkward age in that most people my age (and most people I know who play the cello) actually play in the local youth orchestra. But the auditions for this year have already passed, and then I'll be nineteen the following year, so I'm pushing the youth bit. I think the next time I can join an orchestra without feeling out of place will be when I'm twenty anyway, and I don't want to feel uncomfortable... so I'm happy to continue doing the grades until I know I'm at a certain standard.
> 
> Thanks for the replies guys.


The age limit for the Queensland Symphony Youth Orchestra is 25, the less ... bigger(?) ones I don't know what their limits are. But you should still be alright at 19, definitely.


----------



## Jaws

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> It's alright for people who are just starting but its pointless for expieriencined players.


Anybody can start to learn the violin using the Suzuki method and may become very experienced. However not all methods suit all people. Learning an instrument isn't "one size fits all" Some people might do very well with the Suzuki method some people might do very badly. The important thing is to find a method that suits you.


----------



## MaestroViolinist

Jaws said:


> It doesn't suit everybody and it doesn't suit every instrument. It works well for violin because you can copy the teacher. It wouldn't work so well for brass instruments, and it wouldn't work so well for double reed instruments.
> 
> It is like lots of things it depends on the person who is doing the learning.


True, definitely true. It all depends on the student.


----------



## Jaws

MaestroViolinist said:


> I started at about 5 with my Grandmother, she didn't neccessarily use Suzuki, but she did write songs using the above mentioned methed (D0 123 etc.). Then not long afterwards I started reading notes, just fun things like Irish/Scottish tunes, and then finally when I got my real teacher when I turned 9 I could read notes well, even though I started off reading just numbers.
> 
> The age limit for the Queensland Symphony Youth Orchestra is 25, the less ... bigger(?) ones I don't know what their limits are. But you should still be alright at 19, definitely.


I think Ireland might be the same as the UK where the age limit for youth orchestras is around 18?


----------



## Turangalîla

You might not be able to progress quickly enough to be eligible for a youth orchestra by the time you are at their age limit. However, many community orchestras, are not so bad.

If you are seventeen, you should progress rapidly. I used to teach a piano student beginning when he was 15, and after ten months in lessons he was already in Grade 3 (RCM Grading, in Canada). You would probably do the same.


----------



## Jaws

CarterJohnsonPiano said:


> Grade 3 (RCM Grading, in Canada). You would probably do the same.


What is RCM grading like?


----------



## Vivara

Jaws said:


> I think Ireland might be the same as the UK where the age limit for youth orchestras is around 18?


I know that the National Youth Orchestra of Ireland limits it to people who will not reach their nineteenth birthday by the following August. So I think that cuts me out. I could audition this year in November, but I don't think I'd get in. I think my city's youth orchestra is a bit more lax, but the point is that I'd feel uncomfortable being one of the oldest.

The goal is to join my city's amateur symphony orchestra when I'm twenty/twenty-one or something. (My city doesn't have a professional symphony orchestra anyway.)

I'll think about string quartets, but honestly, the grouping of string players in my city is quite small and they all come out of the same place where I originally studied, and the standard is all unbelievably high. For instance, most people have finished their Grade 8 by the time their fourteen or fifteen.

Thanks again, everyone!


----------



## Turangalîla

Jaws said:


> What is RCM grading like?


RCM has ten grades, and then the ARCT diploma. Of course, it will take a normal student at least a year to get to the Grade 1 examination level, so you don't just start there. ARCT stands for Associate of the Royal Conservatory of Toronto, and you can get it in performance or pedagogy.


----------



## Jaws

In the UK we have 8 grades. Grade 8 the most difficult one is very basic. What it tests is very narrow, and it cannot be used as a standard in ensemble playing (it doesn't test this) or a qualification in music, because there is no time limit on learning the pieces for it. Children can collect the certificates. There is no benefit at all for adults who take these exams.


----------



## Phidias

I certainly hope not since i'm taking up the cello next year and i'm 24.


----------

