# Great singers of the past vs. great singers of the present



## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

This is an interesting comparison:

Which performance do you like best? (Please consider the singing, not the looks, otherwise the answer would be too obvious)

Legendary singers Marilyn Horne and Montserrat Caballé, or current stars Elina Garanca and Anna Netrebko?

(feel free to post other such comparisons)











Oh, by the way, we could do this like the vs. game that is going on in the Community Forum: the next poster picks one of the two that the previous poster has proposed, and then proposes two more (the condition is, the singers of the past and the present need to be singing the same aria).

At the end of the thread we can add it all up and see what group was picked most.


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## rgz (Mar 6, 2010)

I definitely prefer the Garanca / Netrebko version, and by a large margin. It's not a completely fair comparison as those two singers are in their prime, versus two singers near the end of their careers (in 1990, Ms. Horne was 56 years old and Ms. Caballe 57).

Obligatory Natalie comparison, versus Beverly Sills in Grossmachtige Prinzessin


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## amfortas (Jun 15, 2011)

I too prefer the Garanca/Netrebko version. I think the older singers have more distinctive individual voices, but the younger pair blend better. 

By the way, I found it very hard to ignore looks in making my decision. Caballé is *so* much prettier than Netrebko!


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## sospiro (Apr 3, 2010)

rgz said:


> Obligatory Natalie comparison, versus Beverly Sills in Grossmachtige Prinzessin


I don't know this opera but I think Natalie's stunning on here.

Two present & one past versions of _La donna è mobile_


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## schigolch (Jun 26, 2011)

Caballe&Horne vs. Netrebko&Garanca is not fair indeed... to the young girls from eastern Europe. They don't play in the same League yet, and probably never will. 

Having said that, in this particular piece neither of both duos really give us a good rendition of the piece.

Dessay's Zerbinetta, and in 1995, was astounding. The only other singer I can think of that can be a worthy competitor in the role is Edita Gruberova.

About Rigoletto, Bjorling voice is so far superior in almost any parameter, that takes precedence over other considerations... except personal taste, of course. We are talking here of a golden voice, one for the ages.


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## ooopera (Jul 27, 2011)

Jonas Kaufman! 

Don Carlos: 
Robero Alagna & Thomas Hampson






Ettore Bastianini & Eugenio Fernandi


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

rgz said:


> It's not a completely fair comparison as those two singers are in their prime, versus two singers near the end of their careers (in 1990, Ms. Horne was 56 years old and Ms. Caballe 57).


Well, you don't think I'd post anything that might jeopardize Anna's supremacy, right?
So I carefully picked oldish Horne and Caballé, 'cause young Horne and Caballé could have crushed Anna and Elina, and *I* wouldn't allow it!


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## MAuer (Feb 6, 2011)

I definitely prefer the voices of the current singers. It's just personal taste, but I never particularly cared for Beverly Sills' voice, and there were other sopranos (Ricciarelli, Cotrubas) that I preferred to Caballe. Again, just personal taste, as I know both of these ladies were great singers. (And I loved Caballe as Salome.)


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

MAuer said:


> I definitely prefer the voices of the current singers. It's just personal taste, but I never particularly cared for Beverly Sills' voice, and there were other sopranos (Ricciarelli, Cotrubas) that I preferred to Caballe. Again, just personal taste, as I know both of these ladies were great singers. (And I loved Caballe as Salome.)


I've always loved Cotrubas' unique voice, and I was listening to Riciarelli again last night in some early Verdi and was surprised at how much I liked her voice, how bell-like it sounded, now that I've heard so much of her competition. I certainly prefer Dessay to Sills, much more interesting to listen to, she's really interpreting the words.

For the Duke I like Joseph Calleja in this particular role - he conveys the light hearted insouciance of the character very well.


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

ooopera said:


> Don Carlos:
> Robero Alagna & Thomas Hampson
> 
> Ettore Bastianini & Eugenio Fernandi


This is a difficult one. Alagna and Hampson's voices blend very well and the duet sounds very smooth and dynamic.

Bastianini and Fernandi don't really blend, in fact Fernandi dominates, but it's a very exciting rendition.

I like both.


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

Monteverdi, L'Incoronazione di Poppea - "Pur ti Miro" (actually probably not Monteverdi)

Tatiana Troyanos and Eric Tappy






Nuria Rial and Philippe Jaroussky






Roberta Mameli and Emanuela Galli


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## rgz (Mar 6, 2010)

MAuer said:


> I definitely prefer the voices of the current singers. It's just personal taste, but I never particularly cared for Beverly Sills' voice, and there were other sopranos (Ricciarelli, Cotrubas) that I preferred to Caballe. Again, just personal taste, as I know both of these ladies were great singers. (And I loved Caballe as Salome.)


I agree about Beverly Sills (and Caballe, for that matter). I've never been able to understand Sills' popularity / stature, I haven't heard anything sung by her that I've been terribly impressed by. But she's of course very highly regarded so the fault likely lies with me.


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## ooopera (Jul 27, 2011)

mamascarlatti said:


> Tatiana Troyanos and Eric Tappy
> 
> Nuria Rial and Philippe Jaroussky
> 
> Roberta Mameli and Emanuela Galli


Nuria Rial and Philippe Jaroussky. Probably, because I prefer countertenor version.

Next one: 
Di rigori armato il seno

Fritz Wunderlich






Ben Heppner


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## ooopera (Jul 27, 2011)

mamascarlatti said:


> Monteverdi, L'Incoronazione di Poppea - "Pur ti Miro" (actually probably not Monteverdi)


I didn't know that. Is there a doubt that Monteverdi wrote that part of opera? Please enlighten me


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## MAuer (Feb 6, 2011)

ooopera said:


> Next one:
> Di rigori armato il seno
> 
> Fritz Wunderlich
> ...


This is one case where the "past" singer gets my vote. Heppner is a fine singer, but Wunderlich really was extraordinary.


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

ooopera said:


> I didn't know that. Is there a doubt that Monteverdi wrote that part of opera? Please enlighten me


From Wiki:



> Musical analyst Eric Chafe's study of Monteverdi's tonal language supports the collaboration theory and postulates that some of the sections in question, including the prologue, the coronation scene and *the final duet*, reflect Monteverdi's intentions and may have been written under his direct supervision.[19]


It still doesn't stop me loving this music with a passion.


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

rgz said:


> I agree about Beverly Sills (and Caballe, for that matter). I've never been able to understand Sills' popularity / stature,* I haven't heard anything sung by her that I've been terribly impressed by*. But she's of course very highly regarded so the fault likely lies with me.


 Her Violetta puts both my Anna's and your Natalie's to shame.


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## ooopera (Jul 27, 2011)

mamascarlatti said:


> From Wiki:
> 
> It still doesn't stop me loving this music with a passion.


Thanks a lot!


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## sabrina (Apr 26, 2011)

I wouldn't compare old singers with new ones. It is not fair. Apparently, I love old singers, but not only. I can't find sopranos as good as Callas, Moffo, Zeani. AN is a joke. But I love Angela Gheorghiu, Nathalie Dessay, Maria Ewing...They are very good, but even them are not so young anymore.
In the tenors, there is a greater gap. Poor JDF, although brilliant, can't cover for Pavarotti, Corelli, Di Stefano, Biorling et al. I know there are plenty of good tenors/baritones/bass in this days, but big names/voices are quite a few.
I also think that the quality of recordings gives a better chance to new singers.
The old saying: 'De gustibus non est disputandum' is true.


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## MAuer (Feb 6, 2011)

Almaviva said:


> Her Violetta puts both my Anna's and your Natalie's to shame.


I never heard a Violetta who moved me as much as Cotrubas. But again, personal taste.


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

sabrina said:


> I wouldn't compare old singers with new ones. It is not fair. Apparently, I love old singers, but not only. I can't find sopranos as good as Callas, Moffo, Zeani. AN is a joke. But I love Angela Gheorghiu, Nathalie Dessay, Maria Ewing...They are very good, but even them are not so young anymore.
> In the tenors, there is a greater gap. Poor JDF, although brilliant, can't cover for Pavarotti, Corelli, Di Stefano, Biorling et al. I know there are plenty of good tenors/baritones/bass in this days, but big names/voices are quite a few.
> I also think that the quality of recordings gives a better chance to new singers.
> The old saying: 'De gustibus non est disputandum' is true.


 Whaaat? AN is a joke???:scold:

She is a fine singer, whose technique doesn't stop improving. It's not just me saying it; read some recent reviews in major sources, everybody pretty much agrees. Is this the old story of not liking gifted singers just because they are glamorous? The same effect used to plague Jonas Kaufmann, also a very good singer who looks good, and because of his looks, people kept doubting him and not taking him seriously (fortunately for him, they don't do it any longer, he's been recognized for his singing as well, now - just like Anna has won over the critics with her newly improved singing).

Anna's success is most definitely not just because she is beautiful.

There are plenty of other beautiful sopranos and mezzos who never made it as big as Anna because their voices aren't as good. I just reviewed an opera with a spectacular-looking soprano - Svetla Vassileva.










She is arguably almost as beautiful as Anna. Why isn't she even 5% as successful as Anna? Because her voice is not as good as Anna's, that's why. Nobody makes it to the top of this business without a good voice, and there is no denying that Anna is at the very top.

There is no accounting for taste, and I'm OK with people not liking Anna Netrebko for this or that reason. Her works are not homogeneously good - the earlier ones were deficient in technique, she had no trill, the famous Salzburg Traviata is breathy, etc. But to say that she is "a joke" is a bit strong, in my opinion. If she's a joke, she's been fooling the most prestigious critics, because especially after her pregnancy when her voice became fuller and darker, and after her improved technique (she does have a trill, now), she's been collecting only praise from mostly *every* critic on this planet.

A joke? Well the joke is on everybody else, then, because by now Anna is rather unanimously considered to be one of the best sopranos of her generation - and I'm not talking looks; if I were to talk looks, she wouldn't be "one of the best" - she'd plainly be "the best."

I'm not *as* biased as I sound. I said "of her generation." I just posted above saying that Beverly Sill's Violetta puts Anna's to shame. But if we consider just Anna's generation, she is one of the best, no doubt about it.

Please, tell me you don't like Anna, that's fine (it would be nice to know the specifics though, what are the exact weaknesses you see in her?). But please, don't say she is "a joke."


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

MAuer said:


> I never heard a Violetta who moved me as much as Cotrubas. But again, personal taste.


 I'm not comparing Cotrubas to Sills. I'm comparing Sills to Netrebko and Dessay. rgz said he doesn't understand why Sills had a great reputation. I used an example of a role that she performed much more perfectly than rgz's favorite current soprano, and my favorite current soprano. Cotrubas on the other hand was fine. My post didn't have the intention of selecting the best Violetta.


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## larifari (Sep 5, 2011)

This is like asking who is a better runner: Jesse Owens or Carl Lewis.


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## ooopera (Jul 27, 2011)

Almaviva said:


> Oh, by the way, we could do this like the vs. game that is going on in the Community Forum: the next poster picks one of the two that the previous poster has proposed, and then proposes two more (the condition is, the singers of the past and the present need to be singing the same aria).
> 
> At the end of the thread we can add it all up and see what group was picked most.


Guys, this was meant as a kind of a game. You just post two versions of aria and then the other person choose the better one in personal opinion. We are not selecting the best version ever. So, no hard feelings. Just enjoy!


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## sabrina (Apr 26, 2011)

Almaviva said:


> Whaaat? AN is a joke???:scold:
> 
> She is a fine singer, whose technique doesn't stop improving. It's not just me saying it; read some recent reviews in major sources, everybody pretty much agrees.
> 
> ...


Sorry, Almaviva! I don't consider Anna beautiful, but I agree she might look gorgeous when nicely dressed. You don't need to be beautiful for that. But, as we know, beauty is in the eyes of the beholder. 
She is gifted with a nice voice, but that can not be compared to other great sopranos. She obviously lacked years of study in the art of singing. Yes, she improved, but I am still not impressed by her singing. Maybe I am too harsh, but I prefer other beautiful sopranos. 
After spending money for that awful Traviata, I avoid any other similar DVDs. 
To understand me, there was a time, when I only liked Maria Callas in the soprano area. As she has no whole opera video recordings, I ended up loving many other singers.:lol:
Maria Ewing was a superb Rosina, while Angela and Stefania Bonfadelli are wonderful Violeta on my DVDs.
With or without me, Anna has a lot of fans. She was lucky, as I am sure there are many other really beautiful girls with great undiscovered voices.


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

ooopera said:


> Guys, this was meant as a kind of a game. You just post two versions of aria and then the other person choose the better one in personal opinion. We are not selecting the best version ever. So, no hard feelings. Just enjoy!


Exactly, I was about to say this. The game was meant to compare *versions*, not exactly singers. Just post two versions of the same aria by old timers and current singers, the next person picks one that he or she likes best (opinion, not fact), and post two more.

But I guess that by now the mood has been ruined.


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## rgz (Mar 6, 2010)

In an attempt to get this thread back on track, here is a comparison of current, recent, and a bit less recent versions of the duet Se Viver Non Degg'io from Mozart's Mitridate

First, Natalie Dessay and Cecilia Bartoli. Next, Edita Gruberova and Arleen Auger. No date listed for this one but I'd guess it's from the mid 80s. Finally, Edda Moser and Arleen Auger from 1971.

Voices that blend well are essential to this piece, as the second half is largely the same line sung simultaneously by both singers. I don't know if I have a favorite, each rendition has standout moments.


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

sabrina said:


> Sorry, Almaviva! I don't consider Anna beautiful, but I agree she might look gorgeous when nicely dressed. You don't need to be beautiful for that. But, as we know, beauty is in the eyes of the beholder.
> She is gifted with a nice voice, but that can not be compared to other great sopranos. She obviously lacked years of study in the art of singing. Yes, she improved, but I am still not impressed by her singing. Maybe I am too harsh, but I prefer other beautiful sopranos.
> After spending money for that awful Traviata, I avoid any other similar DVDs.
> To understand me, there was a time, when I only liked Maria Callas in the soprano area. As she has no whole opera video recordings, I ended up loving many other singers.:lol:
> ...


Well, happily for Anna, most people agree that she is beautiful - when we did our vote here for most beautiful soprano, guess who won by a wide margin?

OK, "gifted with a nice voice" like you said now is very different from "a joke." I think these singers put a lot into these performances, with years of study and weeks of rehearsal, and to call any of them "a joke" doesn't do them justice.

If you avoid any Anna DVDs other than that Traviata, this may explain your opinion because it was one of Anna's worst vocal performances, like she has explained in interviews, due to the physical requirements of the staging: running all over the place, jumping up and down, singing literally upside down. She wanted to bar DG from releasing the CD of that performance, because she said by seeing what she was doing on stage fans would be able to understand her lack of breath control, but just listening to it they wouldn't. DG went ahead and released it anyway, of course they wanted the money and weren't worried about her image.

If you were to seek other Anna DVDs, you might change your mind.

Unlike Elina Garanca who was born into a musical family and whose mother was a voice teacher and father a musician, Anna had humble origins and didn't have the same training opportunities when younger - she was a janitor at the Mariinsky, for Pete's sake! But now in her 40's, she has amply compensated for the wasted time. And it's not just luck. One has to work hard for what she's got. It's a story of courage, focus, and effort. It's NOT a joke.

Fortunately for her, opera houses are sold out everywhere when she performs (and she is fully booked for the next several years in the most prestigious houses and concert halls on the planet), full of people who don't think she is a joke. So maybe she lacked years of study, but she overcame her shortcomings and made it big. More power to her, I greatly admire this singer, and find her story more impressive than those of people who had the luxury of starting their training at a younger age.

And of course, I have my ticket already for her Anna Bolena at the Met in October, and she's been getting great reviews for the role - it will be the second time I see her live, and I look forward to it!


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## ooopera (Jul 27, 2011)

rgz said:


> First, Natalie Dessay and Cecilia Bartoli. Next, Edita Gruberova and Arleen Auger. No date listed for this one but I'd guess it's from the mid 80s. Finally, Edda Moser and Arleen Auger from 1971.


Dessay & Bartoli.

Next one is Rachael, quand du Seigneur from Halevy's La Juive. Neil Shicoff vs. Beniamino Gigli


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## rgz (Mar 6, 2010)

Gigli by a large margin imo. Schicoff isn't helped by the low bitrate of the YT encode.


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

rgz said:


> Gigli by a large margin imo. Schicoff isn't helped by the low bitrate of the YT encode.


 I do have the DVD and Shicoff sings beautifully with the full DTS sound, but Gigli is very hard to beat.


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

I prefer Shicoff. Gigli sounds too Italianate to me.


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

mamascarlatti said:


> I prefer Shicoff. Gigli sounds too Italianate to me.


 Ahem! And since when is this a bad thing?


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

Almaviva said:


> Ahem! And since when is this a bad thing?


In French repertoire. He should be sounding Frenchate.


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## schigolch (Jun 26, 2011)

Having watched him sing this aria live in the theater (Shicoff, I mean, not Gigli. I'm not that old), and loving his approach to the role, I would pick Shicoff.


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## GoneBaroque (Jun 16, 2011)

I know the piece is not from the world of Opera, but the composer and singers are so please forgive.

From the past here is Leonard Warren singing Tchaikovsky in English






And the same song sung in Russian by an obscure Baritone named Dmitri Hvorostovsky :lol::lol:http://www.talkclassical.com/images/smilies/lol.gif


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

Funny to here the two versions in different languages. It sounds a bit anaemic in the English version, and much stronger, expressing more longing and despair in the Russian version, and that Hvorostovthingie guy was emoting more.


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## sospiro (Apr 3, 2010)

mamascarlatti said:


> Hvorostovthingie guy was emoting more


Russian thingie guy emoting? Never.


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## kv466 (May 18, 2011)

I know very little about opera singers but what is good is good and so as with any musician of any kind or time: if it's good, I like it...if it's not, I don't...I'm not sure what era they belong to but I like Felicity Lott, Michele Esposito and June Anderson.


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## GoneBaroque (Jun 16, 2011)

mamascarlatti said:


> Funny to here the two versions in different languages. It sounds a bit anaemic in the English version, and much stronger, expressing more longing and despair in the Russian version, and that Hvorostovthingie guy was emoting more.


Valid point. It usually seem that songs sound better in the original language and do not fare too well in translation. I was trying mote to offer a comparison of the two voices. Of course, the advances in recording since the Warren recording of the '40s definitely favors the more recent sound of Dimitris.


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