# Mozart's La Finta Semplice



## vtpoet (Jan 17, 2019)

Written by the twelve year old Mozart. Am just listening to it (for a change of pace).

Curious what others think: Would you consider this opera, by the twelve year old Mozart, to already be superior to any of the operas by his peers? Gluck, for example wrote Alceste (1767) and Paride ed Elena (1770) around this time. Salieri's first great success Armida was performed in 1771.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

I can tell you that in terms of chromatic harmony, vocal writing, I think Mozart in 1768 wasn't mature enough compared to


hammeredklavier said:


> What I've found especially memorable about the work are the fluid juxtaposition of solos and choruses in the "Uns erhalte, uns regiere" (15:48), the harmonies of the extended arias such as the "Es ist nicht g'nug" (25:52), and the drama of the "Gedenk an Sinai" (32:59):
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## vtpoet (Jan 17, 2019)

Interesting. I would be hesitant to compare an oratorio to an opera (given the differing dramatic aims of the two), but interestingly enough Mozart's only oratorio was written around this time: Betulia Liberata (1771) (although Haydn's oratorio was performed in 1768, the same year as Le Finta Semplice). I just listened to Betulia Liberata the other day and wasn't all that taken with it. There might have been one aria that really stood out. That said, the performance of Mozart's oratorio is much better than Haydn's:

https://www.amazon.com/Betulia-Libe...x=mozart+betulia+liberata,popular,302&sr=1-12

But allowing for that, deciding between the relative merit of Haydn's Oratorio and Mozart's wouldn't be easy, at first glance. I'll have to listen to Haydn again. Even at twelve, Mozart's mediocrity was the next man's genius.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

vtpoet said:


> I'll have to listen to Haydn again.


Try to really listen for the harmonies when you do again:
"Jesu, der den Tod besiegt" 



"Es ist nicht g'nug"


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## DaveM (Jun 29, 2015)

Mozart's La Finta Semplice is nowhere close to Gluck's Alceste (which was unfortunately overshadowed by the latter's Orpheus and Euridyce). Evidence this wonderful little-heard trio:


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## Rogerx (Apr 27, 2018)

It is nice entertainment , he got better over the years but so once or twice a year spinning with the other one : La finta giardiniera
makes me feel good. :angel:

( Tip: next time put this questions in the Opera section)


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

Die Wahrheit der Natur, Ein Singspiel MH 118 (1769)


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## Michael122 (Sep 16, 2021)

vtpoet said:


> Written by the twelve year old Mozart. Am just listening to it (for a change of pace).
> 
> Curious what others think: Would you consider this opera, by the twelve year old Mozart, to already be superior to any of the operas by his peers?


Yes............


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## vtpoet (Jan 17, 2019)

hammeredklavier said:


> Die Wahrheit der Natur, Ein Singspiel MH 118 (1769)


Sigh... another lovely 18th century composition ruined by a 21st century countertenor, and a mediocre countertenor at that. I've listened to this before. Maybe a different recording? How do _you_ rate this compared to Semplice?


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

vtpoet said:


> How do _you_ rate this compared to Semplice?


Not a fair game, cause Mozart wasn't mature like this in the late 1760s











vtpoet said:


> Betulia Liberata (1771)


Remember,
*Requiem in C Minor, MH 155 (1771)*
Requiem 1st theme & "trumpet signal": [ 0:20 ]
Requiem 2nd theme: [ 3:20 ~ 3:45 ]
Dies irae theme: [ 6:26 ~ 2:38 ]
Requiem '3rd theme': [ 7:00 ~ 7:12 ]
Lacrimosa theme: [ 11:41 ~ 11:48 ]
Dies irae theme recapitulated (within 'Dies irae' movement): [ 12:12 ~ 12:24 ]
Requiem '3rd theme' recapitulated (within 'Dies irae' movement) +
chromatic fourth theme (climbing from D to G in bass): [ 12:40 ~ 12:50 ]
Amen & Requiem '3rd theme' elaborated (coda of 'Dies irae' movement): [ 12:52 ~ 13:40 ]
Quam olim abrahae fugue: [ 16:06 ~ 17:18 ]
Quam olim abrahae fugue recapitulated (with added figures in strings): [ 18:52 ~ 20:02 ] 
Hosanna theme (Lacrimosa theme transformed/recapitulated): [ 24:23 ~ 24:30 ]
Requiem '4th theme' & "trumpet signal": [ 26:48 ; 27:56 ]
chromatic fourth theme recapitulated (climbing from G to C in soprano): [ 28:40 ~ 28:50 ]
Cum sanctis tuis fugue: [ 29:17 ~ 31:16 ]
Requiem 2nd theme recapitulated: [ 31:22 ~ 31:50 ]
Requiem 1st theme recapitulated: [ 31:58 ~ 32:30 ]
Cum sanctis tuis fugue recapitulated: [ 32:38 ~ 34:30 ]


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

Die Hochzeit auf der Alm, Schäfergedicht in 2 Aufzügen MH 107 (1768)


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)




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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

Actually, a couple more:





the harmonies at 1:22-


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## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

vtpoet said:


> Interesting. I would be hesitant to compare an oratorio to an opera (given the differing dramatic aims of the two), but interestingly enough Mozart's only oratorio was written around this time: Betulia Liberata (1771) (although Haydn's oratorio was performed in 1768, the same year as Le Finta Semplice). I just listened to Betulia Liberata the other day and wasn't all that taken with it. There might have been one aria that really stood out. That said, the performance of Mozart's oratorio is much better than Haydn's:
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/Betulia-Libe...x=mozart+betulia+liberata,popular,302&sr=1-12
> 
> But allowing for that, deciding between the relative merit of Haydn's Oratorio and Mozart's wouldn't be easy, at first glance. I'll have to listen to Haydn again. Even at twelve, Mozart's mediocrity was the next man's genius.


No I dont' think Mozart's early operas were as good as the best from Gluck etc - even Salieri.

Until The Seraglio I don't think Mozart was the best opera composer in Europe - but with the Seraglio - he most certainly was - even if not recognised as such at the time.


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## trazom (Apr 13, 2009)

PlaySalieri said:


> Until The Seraglio I don't think Mozart was the best opera composer in Europe - but with the Seraglio - he most certainly was - even if not recognised as such at the time.


Most musicologists consider the earlier opera Idomeneo to be Mozart's breakthrough operatic work, not Seraglio. Seraglio was the greater crowd pleaser and had more commercial success but it's nowhere near as bold or ambitious as Idomeneo.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

hammeredklavier said:


>





trazom said:


> Idomeneo


Btw, speaking of Idomeneo, look at this harmonic similarity:
Nimm von mir Aglaien hin 



Colpa è vostra, oh Dei tiranni


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## CopistaSignorGomez (Dec 9, 2021)

It is not fair, it is not a fair comparison. It makes no sense to compare these works by Mozart with those of other adult composers of the time. Not familiarized with The finta semplice, but E.g. Mitridate (1770) is part of Myslivecek's opera La Nitteti (1770). Tremendous opera, but still no a mature one, btw include 2 or 3 very wonderfull arias. In other words, the greatest composer of his time was at an embryonic stage. Mozart told Attwood that only after many years of homophonic composition can one venture to write fugues, and here we are at the same point as always: Mozart was an extraordinarily talented individual, but the quality of his music cannot be understood without the mastery achieved after many years of hard work.

On the influence of Michael Haydn in this evolution. Absolutely total. We must think that Mozart was involved in the daily rehearsal, performance, etc. of Michael Haydn's works. In the Requiem itself and in general, all of Michael Haydn's production could pass through Mozart's hands, played on the violin, and copied in manuscript. From the beginning to the end, Mozart insistently sought out scores by Michael Haydn, in the same compulsive manner as he had done over the years for Myslivecek, JC Bach. The influence of Michael Haydn is more structural, as the contact and access to Michael Haydn's scores was maximal during the composer's embryonic phase. It is the weight of daily contact, as colleagues, in the service of the Archbishopric of Salzburg, for years, without having such close contact with Myslivecek and even less with JC Bach, whom he hardly dealt with as an adult.

Unbelievable. Mozart asking his father for Michael Haydn's scores, in his Viennese heyday. Unconsciously, in one of the most brilliant minds of his time, he had already assimilated the style of a titan of ascetic taste and counterpoint like Michael Haydn ( bravissima contrapuntisti is how Mozart described him to Padre Martini, in his Salzburg period ). It was therefore an extraordinarily good coincidence that both heads were able to interact for so many years, sharing musical service. We cannot understand Mozart's compositional style and technique without Michael Haydn. Not only church music, in which we know Michael Haydn reached the highest technique and taste of the time, but in any genre in which Mozart had access to Michael's output.

In the end, what music did Mozart write according to his taste? The music he admired, and there is no greater show of admiration than imitation. At the top, for Mozart's taste, the music of JC Bach, Michael Haydn and Myslivecek. Not surprisingly, there are many quotations and direct compositional influences with these three composers in particular. He does not only copy melody, but also harmony and structures; not only thematic cells. Cf. how Mozart composed adapting his symphonic style to Mannheim in symphony 31, quoting Roeschi, not only quoting literally but also in structure, Mannheim style, repetitions, instrumental ensemble. The good thing is that the "stylistic copy" always surpasses the original. And we can always trace a stylistic point of reference, whether in an aria or a wind quintet or a motet.

Mozart, the great technical musician of the time, precisely, the greatest counterpuntist of his time, tells us according to O'kelly (if we give credibility to his testimony) that above all he prefers melody to any pedantic or overloaded technicality; a similar attitude to the figure of the virtuoso which, like modern pianos, was crystallising at the time. Even, in a moment of rest, of delicate, jovial, immensely rich taste, beyond any technicality, casual and unpretentious, Mozart was reminded of Michael Haydn?

How, even in the kleine Nacthmusik?


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

hammeredklavier said:


> Btw, speaking of Idomeneo, look at this harmonic similarity:
> Nimm von mir Aglaien hin
> 
> 
> ...


Gequaltes Herz 



Non so più cosa son


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