# Top 10 Orchestras



## Yuanhou

These are my top 10 Orchestras:
Berlin Phil
Boston Symphony 
Chicago Symphony
Cleveland Orchestra
Royal Concertgebouw Amsterdam
London Symphony
Orchestre de Paris
Staatskapelle Dresden
Bavarian Radio Symphony
Vienna Philharmonic

I was wondering what else you guys think? What metric do you use to pick your Top 10?

Discuss amongst everyone


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## jacobedmund

*Favorite Orchestras*

Hi 
I do not have a long list of favorite orchestra. I like *Cleveland Orchestra, London Symphony* and *Vienna Philharmonic*. These are my favorite orchestra.


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## opus67

I do not have favourite orchestras as such. But I wonder whether you list is about the current orchestras, or those from years gone by, or overall, since their performances tend to change as their music directors, conductors and players change.


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## Guest

I also do not have a list but the Berlin Phil is my favorite. I have a CD of them playing Tchaikovsky's 5th and 1812 Overture. By FAR my favorite recording of any music i own. It was given to me for my birthday and if you come across it, get it! VERY passionate


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## opus67

Notserp89m said:


> I also do not have a list but the Berlin Phil is my favorite. I have a CD of them playing Tchaikovsky's 5th and 1812 Overture. By FAR my favorite recording of any music i own. It was given to me for my birthday and if you come across it, get it! VERY passionate


I have the 5th with Karajan conducting. I have heard the 4th and 6th a few times. Maybe today I will listen to the 5th.


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## ChamberNut

I am biased and love my hometown symphony orchestra the best!  

There are many great orchestras out there, even the lesser known ones.


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## Andrew

Yuanhou said:


> I was wondering what else you guys think? What metric do you use to pick your Top 10?


Well, my metrics are my taste, my experience and the recordings I own. 

It's very difficult to pick up a Top 10, because as ChamberNut says there are a lot of very good orchestras all over the world, well-known and lesser known. In Germany we have some good Radio Symphony Orchestras - the Bavarian one was already mentioned, others are in Frankfurt, Cologne and Hamburg. The Gewandhaus orchestra Leipzig is also very good, it has a long tradition back to Mendelssohn. One of my favourites is the Cologne Chamber Orchestra, they made some fine recordings of Baroque and Classical music on Naxos.


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## Rondo

I agree with most of those, incl the NY Phil, Berlin, Vienna, London, and Chicago....but what about the San Francisco Sym...quite a group (I would say, in my opinion, and you can take it or leave it, ...second-best to NY Phil in US).


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## tutto

....as mentioned above, for russian music I`ll go with st.petersburg or moscow, they know the tradition of playing russian music, ect.ect..


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## david johnson

down with the metric system...it's the devil's tool !!! :angry: oops, you meant something else... 

i don't believe i really have a 'top 10'.

i gravitate toward chicago/st. louis general sound.
others are - london, berlin, l'orchestra de la suisse romande, philharmonia.

my metric? brass section and overall orchestral sonority as shows up in recordings.

dj


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## Handel

Difficult to answer. 

In a non-specific order:

Les Violons du Roy
Akamedie für Alte Musik Berlin
La Petite Bande
Tafelmusik Orchestra
Orchestra of the Age of Enlightenment
Orchestra of the 18th century
Collegium Cartusianum
Concerto Köln
London Mozart Players
Les Musiciens du Louvre

There are many others but this is my top 10.


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## Amy

Ooh this is tricky! Erm, Berlin Phil, Philharmonia of the Nations, St.Petersberg, Moscow Phil, Halle (yes, they do rock), London Mozart Players, London Symphony, Polish Radio, Orchestra Revolutionaire, Vienna Philharmonic!


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## tutto

vienna phil. isn´t really a professional, to have a job there, orchestra. there are players from opera and others, pedagogues...


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## Morigan

Handel said:


> Difficult to answer.
> 
> In a non-specific order:
> 
> Les Violons du Roy
> Akamedie für Alte Musik Berlin
> La Petite Bande
> Tafelmusik Orchestra
> Orchestra of the Age of Enlightenment
> Orchestra of the 18th century
> Collegium Cartusianum
> Concerto Köln
> London Mozart Players
> Les Musiciens du Louvre
> 
> There are many others but this is my top 10.


Heh, being from Québec City, I thought you'd say Les Violons du Roy . I only have one recording from them, and it's _Appolo e Dafne_ and _Silete venti_. Excellent in every aspect!


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## Handel

Because I live in Québec City I can attend Violons concerts. However, I didn't choose the orchestra because it was from Québec City. Rather because it is truly a great orchestra.


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## Chi_townPhilly

I think there's much to be said for the spirit of "support your hometown side." Then again, I guess that's very easy for me to say, because my hometowns have been... well- look at my screen-name 

In any event, I think that if one were to do a Monopoly-board based on Symphony Orchestras, Vienna PO and Berlin PO would be Boardwalk and Park Place, respectively. Beyond that, I'll also admit to a fondness for the Concertgebouw and the Boston Symphony Orchestra (lucky enough to have heard the latter live). Any further personal comment would be silly, as your humble dilettante ought not presume to pass judgement on many of the world's greatest musicians.


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## Rachmaninov

My top 10 orchestras:
1)Staakskapelle Dresden
2)Royal Concertgebouw
3)Leningrad philharmonic
4)NBC Symphony
5)LeipzigGewandhaus
6)NDR-sinfonieorchester
7)Munchener-Bach ensemble
8)Amsterdam Baroque soloists
9)London Symphony
10)Bavarian Radio Symphony

My top 10 conductors:
1)Arturo Toscanini
2)Wilhelm Furtwangler
3)Every Mravinsky
4)Carlos Kleiber
5)Willem Mengelberg
6)Karl Bohm
7)Sir Colin Davis
8)Nickolas Harnocourt
9)Jochum Wand
10)Rafael Kubelik


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## ArtemisofEphesus

I don't have a list, I haven't listened to enough classical music yet, but up until now my favourite orchestra is The Academy Of Saint-Martin-in-the-Fields. I also like the Berlin Philharmonic, but Karajan's... over-emotionality can get on my nerves.


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## opus67

Rachmaninov said:


> 9)Jochum Wand


Did you mean Eugene Jochum, or perhaps Gunter Wand?


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## RebLem

I'm pickin' 12, in four groups of three. No particular order within each group, but the groups are in order of preference.

Group 1--Chicago, Berlin, Concertgebouw.
Group 2--London Sym, Philharmonia, Vienna.
Group 3--Boston, Gewandhaus, Czech PO.
Group 4--St. Petersburg, Philadelphia, Bavarian RSO.

I think that George Szell was nothing less than the greatest conductor who ever lived, and under his Music Directorship, the Cleveland Orch was the greatest orchestra in the world. But I think it is now nowhere near as good as it was under Szell. As for the MYPO, its a great orchestra, but in a mediocre hall. They'd have to be in my top 12 in any other venue; I suppose I'd drop the Bavarian to accommodate them.


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## RebLem

Obviously, that should have been NYPO, not MYPO. My bad.


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## opus67

RebLem said:


> under [Szell's] Music Directorship, the Cleveland Orch was the greatest orchestra in the world.


And that's why I think everyone should also list a period along with each orchestra. The members (of the orchestra) change, and more importantly the directors/conductors change, and that seems to be the biggest influence on the listener.


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## RebLem

opus67 said:


> And that's why I think everyone should also list a period along with each orchestra. The members (of the orchestra) change, and more importantly the directors/conductors change, and that seems to be the biggest influence on the listener.


Yes, well, I think there are a number of orchestras which, while they have had ups and downs, are up almost all the time and have been for a long time. Among them are NYPO, Boston, Chicago, and arguably Philly in the US, and, in Europe, the Concertgebouw, Berlin, Vienna, Leipzig, and, arguably, the Czech Phil.

Chicago is the one I know most about, as I was born there and lived in that area until 2002. Many people mistakenly think that Georg Solti was the first great music director there. Others, a bit more sophisticated, will acknowledge the greatness of Fritz Reiner's leadership there. But the CSO had at least two great MDs before Reiner--Theodore Thomas, the founder of the orchestra in the 1890's, and Frederick Stock, who succeeded him. Thomas staffed the orchestra entirely with German musicians. It has to be said that America had not yet the educational institutional infrastructure to staff orchestras itself. But the CSO had its first guest conductor in 1904--none other than Richard Strauss, a friend of Theodore Thomas's, and Arthur Schnabel thought enough of the CSO and Frederick Stock that he recorded the last two Beethoven Piano Concerti with them even after he had already done the complete set with Sir Malcolm Sargent in the 1930's.

What Solti did was very important, though. He brought in the big bucks. When he took over, the CSO was the only one of the Big Five American orchestras without either a Brahms or a Beethoven symphony cycle on the market. Solti marched the orchestra pretty systematically and almost ruthlessly through much of the standard repertoire and did big box after big box--the Beethoven symphonies twice, the Beethoven piano concerti, the Brahms symphonies, the Mahler symphonies, and made the CSO a commercial force to be reckoned with.


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## World Violist

Berlin Philharmonic
Vienna Philharmonic
Israel Philharmonic
Cincinnati Symphony
Chicago Symphony
Les Violons du Roy

Can't think of many, I've only recently gotten into large-scale symphonic works.


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## Rachovsky

Has anyone heard of "The Academy of St. Martin in the Fields"? I have heard of some of their recordings and they sound so clear and pristine to me. Maybe it's just the way iTunes changes the sound quality.

I liked the Berlin Philharmonic when Karajan conducted.
I hope to see the London Symphony Orchestra under Sir Colin Davis in March.
Then all of the normal ones. Boston Pops, Vienna Philharmonic, NYPO


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## opus67

Rachovsky said:


> Has anyone heard of "The Academy of St. Martin in the Fields"?


Yup. My first CD of orchestral music was by them. (With three serenades by Mozart.) I think they will touring the U.S. this year or the next with Murray Perahia.


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## Rachovsky

Yes, I believe I went onto their website and saw that they were coming here in March. They will be performing all of Beethoven's symphonies, concertos, and sonatas. I would love to go to see a #5 or #9. The nearest city that they are in is 6 hours away in Nashville, TN though..


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## Ephemerid

Rachovsky said:


> Has anyone heard of "The Academy of St. Martin in the Fields"? I have heard of some of their recordings and they sound so clear and pristine to me. Maybe it's just the way iTunes changes the sound quality.


Neville Marriner & the Academy of St. Martin-in-the-Fields is excellent, yeah.

I don't have any "favourite" favourites, but I would say that when looking for recordings, here are some conductors and/or orchestras I tend to *trust *if I want a good representation of a composition (in no order)

*Yoel Levi & the Atlanta Symphony 
Pierre Boulez & the Cleveland Symphony
Neemi Jarvi & the Scottish National Orchestra
Simon Rattle & the Birmingham Symphony
Michael Tilson Thomas
Esa-Pekka Salonen
Kent Nagano*
~josh


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## Smeepers

I'm going to mention my local orchestra who I am a great fan of and I havn't seen listed so far in this discussion. The Royal Liverpool Philharmonic Orchestra (RLPO).


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## Handel

World Violist said:


> Berlin Philharmonic
> 
> Les Violons du Roy


What did you listen from them?


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## shsherm

I grew up in Chicago and the CSO is one of the great ones. The next great orchestra I have been priviledged to hear is the Royal Concertgebouw. Among the excellent ones I have heard is the Houston Symphony and the Los Angeles Philharmonic. I have not heard the New York Philharmonic for 10 years but never thought they were quite as good as the CSO and ROyal Concertgebouw.


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## classichick

I agree with Handel- Orchestra of the Age of Enlightenment are definately in my top orchestra list! Looking forward to their Night Shift concert this month- is anyone else going?


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## cl34

Im going to the night shift- looking forward to it too! I think its a great idea to have an informal concert where you can enjoy the music without worrying about all the rules like clapping in the right place. Cheap drinks are a bonus too!


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## classicgal

I dont have a top ten as such but I think I would lean towards Vienna phil as one of my favourites as well as Moscow.


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## World Violist

Now that I actually have ten favorite orchestras (in no particular order):

Vienna Philharmonic
Berlin Philharmonic
Chicago Symphony
Israel Philharmonic
London Philharmonic
New York Philharmonic
Cincinnati Symphony
Lahti Symphony
San Francisco Symphony
Boston Symphony

And a random fact I just realized: this is one of the very few posts I make that does not use an ellipsis!


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## SamGuss

In my limited experience - and also in no particular order (unless noted):

1. Vienna Philharmonic Orchestra
1. Berlin Philharmonic Orchestra
2. Royal Concertgebouw Orchestra
2. Academy of St. Martin's in the Field
2. London Symphony Orchestra
Chicago Symphony orchestra
New York Philharmonic
Atlanta Symphony Orchestra
San Francisco Symphony Orchestra
Royal Philharmonica Orchestra

As I look over this list, I find it humorous in this fashion... A conversation about the differences in European and American orchestra's is what at first piqued my interest to start exploring classical music, and I do tend to like the European greats more so than American (though I do not fault American at all and do have some as my top 10 - easily, like NYP, CSO), especially VPO and BPO at this time. Of course just a couple months ago I had never heard most if not all of these orchestra's - so who can tell what I will like or be on my opinion in say a year from now.


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## World Violist

Vienna is the best! Some of the greatest recordings ever made were with the VPO (although Reiner's recordings of Richard Strauss (Chicago) certainly give them a run for their money)!


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## Kezza

I really like Prima Vista Philharmonic, Melbourne Symphony and Berlin.
As well as the Israeli, they're actually real good too.


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## Conductor

I love the Chicago Symphony and the New York Phil. I also like the Budapest Symphony!


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## Rachovsky

Just off the top of my head,

Philharmonia Orchestra under Esa-Peka Salonen
Academy of St. Martin in the Fields under Sir Neville Marriner
Berlin Philharmonic under Herbert von Karajan especially
Vienna Philharmonic under anyone
Chicago Symphony Orchestra under Georg Solti


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## Air

1. Berliner Philharmoniker (the best, as always)
2. London symphony
3. NY Philharmonic
4. Wiener (vienna) philharmoniker
5. Toronto Philharmonic (Canadians ARE good musicians)
6. San francisco philharmonic (just because i live there, and i'm proud of my area)


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## World Violist

Now in some semblance of an order...

Vienna Philharmonic
Berlin Philharmonic
Royal Concertgebouw Orchestra
New York Philharmonic
Chicago Symphony
Lahti Symphony
Philharmonia Orchestra
Israel Philharmonic
Cincinnati Symphony
Orchestre de Paris


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## David C Coleman

I would say the most consistent orchestra, with different conductors, over the recording era would be the VPO.
Second would be the BPO (especially under Karajan).
Third place goes to Amsterdam Concergtbouw (Probably spelt that wrong - )
The rest of the places could go to Chicago, Philharmonia, LSO, LPO, New York Phil. Philadelphia, Clevelend. (in no particular order )


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## shsherm

Recordings versus live performances are totally different animals and I prefer live performances. I have heard excellent playing in live performances by The Chicago Symphony playing the best of any orchestra under Solti. The Los Angeles Philharmonic plays vey well under Esa Pekka Salonen. The Royal Concertgebouw was better with Ricardo Chailly than with Mariss Jansons. The Houston Symphony was excellent with Eschenbach. I did not think as highly of the Philharmonia with Dohyani. Their Mahler 1st was just so-so but The Debussy was great. I heard them all in live performance and to quote PDQ Bach "If it sounds good, it is good".


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## David C Coleman

I do find that to judge a particular orchestra can be subject to various factors such as quality of recording, acoustics of the venue used, unsympathetic conducting and has the horn section, for example got out of the wrong side of the bed that particular morning to make all those mistakes. 
I have heard orchestras such as BBC symphony orchestra, City of Birmingham SO, Halle, Bournmouth SO and others give some tremendous performances (I live in UK -  ). And there are very average recordings by the BPO or VPO around due to those factors I've already mentioned. So It's very difficult to judge what is a top rate orchestra.
I'm just so very pleased that we have soooo many brilliant ensemble around...


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## David C Coleman

After being a little negative toward young people and classical music in a previous thread, one mustn't forget the phenominal amount of young talent, that's saround at the moment. Thinking on orchestras like, Gustav Mahler Youth Orchestra, European Community Youth Orchestra, National Youth Orchestra of Great Britain and many others. And praising the conductors that have founded them as well. We hope that this wonderful music lives on through these special people...


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## World Violist

David C Coleman said:


> After being a little negative toward young people and classical music in a previous thread, one mustn't forget the phenominal amount of young talent, that's saround at the moment. Thinking on orchestras like, Gustav Mahler Youth Orchestra, European Community Youth Orchestra, National Youth Orchestra of Great Britain and many others. And praising the conductors that have founded them as well. We hope that this wonderful music lives on through these special people...


Indeed, these orchestras you've mentioned have some great talent in them. I'd like to add MTT's New World Symphony Orchestra to this list as well.


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## josephshaw

1. Berlin Philharmonic
2. Vienna Philharmonic
3. Philadelphia Orchestra
4. New York Philharmonic
5. Cleveland Orchestra
6. Concergebouw Orchestra (spelling)
7. Royal Philharmonic Orchestra
8. London Symphony Orchestra
9. Amsterdam Symphony
10. Pittsburgh Symphony


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## Saturnus

1. The BBC symphony Orchestra (I attended a concert - the most beautiful sounds I've ever heard)
2. Staatskapelle Dresden
3. London Symphony Orchestra
4. Berlin Philharmonic
5. Russian National Orchestra
6. Concertgebouw Orchestra
7. Helsinki Philharmonic Orchestra
8. Budapest Festival Orchestra
9. Polish National Radio Symphony Orchestra
10. Iceland Symphony Orchestra


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## Atabey

Concertgebouworkest and Wiener Philharmoniker...

and the others.


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## ConcertVienna

Vienna and Berlin


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## emiellucifuge

David C Coleman said:


> After being a little negative toward young people and classical music in a previous thread, QUOTE]
> 
> What possible negativity is there to say?
> 
> Funny someone mentioned the Amsterdam symphony, Id never even heard of them and I live in amsterdam.
> 
> The concertgebouw is the big one here and its our pride.
> 
> For those who dont know Concert means concert, Gebouw means building. Concertgebouw is basically concert hall and the Resident Orchestra of the Amsterdam Concert Hall is the Royal Concerthall orchestra...
> 
> Het Koninglijke Concertgebouw Orkest.
> 
> (Koninglijke = kingly or royal)


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## Mirror Image

Here are mine (in no particular order):

1. Royal Concertgebouw
2. Berlin Philharmonic
3. Vienna Philharmonic
4. London Philharmonic
5. London Symphony
6. Chicago Symphony
7. New York Philharmonic
8. Czech Philharmonic
9. St. Petersburg Philharmonic
10. Cologne Radio Symphony


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## World Violist

Lahti
Helsinki
Concertgebouw
LSO
Vienna
Minnesota
Cincinnati
Cleveland
Boston
Chicago


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## JonesGM

tutto said:


> vienna phil. isn´t really a professional, to have a job there, orchestra. there are players from opera and others, pedagogues...


This is not true. Every player in the Vienna Phil. has to have some years of experience in the opera orchestra. And some of the more famous players do have small classes at the conservatory, but that is not uncommon for any orchestra players.

I'm pretty sure they'd be considered professional by the overwhelming majority ;-)


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## nimmysnv

Hi
Thanks for the FANTASTIC list! 
I love London symphony.
Thanks


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## audiophilia

Almost impossible as the conductor can change the sound dramatically. That said, and for fun, here are my ten in no particular order:

Berlin
Vienna
London Symphony
Concertgebouw
Philharmonia
London Philharmonic
Chicago
Cleveland
Dresden
Montreal


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## saivenkat

I am biased and love my hometown symphony orchestra the best!

There are many great orchestras out there, even the lesser known ones


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## SimonShen1991

VPO's string instruments are marvelous!


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## SimonShen1991

How I wish that our Chinese can have a top orchestra! But there is none!


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## mario54671

I have no particular order, some of my favorites include Vienna, Berlin, LOS ANGELES PHILHARMONIC, Philharmonia Orchestra, and the New York Philharmonic.

I'm just wondering...why is it only one person has mentioned LA Philharmonic? Do you guys really believe that Pittsburgh Symphony, Boston Symphony Orchestra and Cleveland Orchestra are better than them? Because I mean, I don't wanna say "your opinions are 'wrong'" but like...that's kinda dismissing all the work Esa-Pekka Salonen did to make them REALLY good! Nobody seems to listen to the LA Philharmonic!  May I make a suggestion and go on iTunes and look Stravinsky's Firebird (1910 version) conducted by Salonen and the LA Phil, just to introduce some of you to what LA Philharmonic can do live.


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## mrviolaman

Philadelphia Orchestra with either Stokowski, Ormandy, or Muti.


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## ladyrebecca

I have limited experience with live orchestras -- about 2 seasons worth of Boston Symphony Orchestra stuff but only one performance of Berliner Philharmoniker (last Sunday at Symphony Hall!) and several performances of the Houston Symphony. I've heard dozens of lesser known groups, of course, and have played for a few amateur groups as well, but I feel like I would restrict my list to those I've heard live. Having said that, there's a special place in my heart for my beloved BSO, so in order:

Boston
Berlin
Houston


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## h1478971

Vienna Philharmonic is by far the best in my opinion.


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## shsherm

Gramophone Magazine has a new list of world's grearest orchestras with the Royal Concertgebouw on top and the Chicago Symphony as the best in the US. This list was chosen by various music critics. Right now I am listening to the Mahler 2nd with Haitink and the CSO. This is on KUSC FM in L.A.


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## World Violist

Chicago and New York are somewhere near the top of my list (incidentally, in that order).

That is, after the Concertgebouw and Vienna Phil. Of course.


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## david.allsopp

Hard to say because different orchestras seem to play their national music better than others, e.g. Vienna with Strauss (both!) and Royal Liverpool with Vaughan Williams. Based on which Orchestras I have in my library and since I choose the orchestra when choosing a recording:

1. Vienna Philharmonic
2. Royal Liverpool Philharmonic
3. The Academy of St. Martin in the Fields
4. Oslo Philharmonic
5. Chicago Symphony
6. London Symphony
7. Berlin Philharmonic
8. Royal Concertgebouw
9. New York Philharmonic
10. Simon Bolivar Youth Orchestra of Venezuela

Crumbs what a mix!


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## tahnak

*Ten Greatest Orchestral Ensembles*

1. Wiener Philharmoniker
2. Berliner Philharmoniker
3. Leningrad Philharmonic
4. Israel Philharmonic
5. London Symphony
6. Chicago Symphony
7. New York Philharmonic
8. Boston Symphony
9. Los Angeles Philharmonic
10. Bayerischen Rundfunks


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## classical sympony

Andrea Bocelli played in a orchestra. He played the piano, flute, guitar, trombone, trumpet, harp, saxaphone, and drum. He has played at the Chicago Symphony, Cleveland Orchestra, London Symphony, Vienna Philharmonic, and many other places.


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## superhorn

I don't like arbitrary lists like this. There are many wonderful orchestras all over Eyrope,the US and elsewhere. I've enjoyed the playing of so many different orchestras.

For example: Berlin Philharmonic, Royal Concertgebous Orchestra,Vienna Philharmonic, 
Staatskapelle,Dresden, Chicago Symphony,New York Philharmonic, London Symphony,
London Philharmonic, Bavarian Radio Symphony, Boston Symphony, Leipzig Gewandhaus Orchestra, Philharmonia Orchestra, Cleveland Orchestra,Philadelphia Orchestra, Royal Philharmonic, Los Angeles Philharmonic,Israel Philharmonic, Berlin Deutsches Symphony orchestra, 
BBC symphony, Czech Philharmonic, San Francisco symphony,Montreal symphony, 
Halle orchestra,Manchester, Detroit symphony, Orchestre De Paris, Rotterdam Philharmonic,
St.Petersburg Philharmonic,Mariinsky Theater Orchestra, Cologne Radio symphony, 
Zurich Tonhalle orchestra, Suisse Romande orchestra, St.Louis symphony, Seattle symphony,
City of Birmingham symphony,Oslo Philharmonic, Gothenburg symphony.Royal Stockholm Philharmonic, Danish National Radio symphony, Helsinki Philharmonic,
Orchestre National de France, Toulouse Capitole orchestra, Monte Carlo Philharmonic,
Toronto symphony, Royal National Scottish orchestra, BBC Philharmonic, Pittsburgh symphony, 
Houston symphony,Dallas symphony,Baltimore symphony,Washington National symphony,
etc.

Different people prefer different orchestras, of course, but all of these have a lot to offer,and this is by no means an exhaustive list.


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## Brahmsipoo

I hope those are not in order. There's no reason Cleveland and Boston should be ahead of Chicago, and there's no reason anything should be ahead of the Concertgebouw.


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## Guest

It's really nice having the Detroit Symphony in my backyard, especially every since Leonard Slatkin took the helm. A highly underrated orchestra.


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## Huilunsoittaja

Royal Scottish National Orchestra. <3

Hands down, besides Russian orchestras, they have made *the *best Russian Classical Music Recordings.


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## Guest

Huilunsoittaja said:


> Royal Scottish National Orchestra


They were once led by one of my all-time favorite conductors, Neeme Jarvi (who also led the Detroit Symphony, but alas I'm too young to have heard him).


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## Huilunsoittaja

Jeff N said:


> They were once led by one of my all-time favorite conductors, Neeme Jarvi (who also led the Detroit Symphony, but alas I'm too young to have heard him).


*Yes* and thus Neeme Jarvi is also one of my favorite conductors, because of his great interpretations of Russian classical music with that group.


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## Guest

Huilunsoittaja said:


> Yes and thus Neeme Jarvi is also one of my favorite conductors, because of his great interpretations of Russian classical music with that group.


Totally. His Prokofiev is unsurpassed, as well as his Dvorak. Many of his recordings have a purity of sound I've never in my life heard.


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## Vaneyes

RSNO, after Jarvi, were reduced to not much more than movie music.


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## Guest

Vaneyes said:


> RSNO, after Jarvi, were reduced to not much more than movie music.


Bryden Thomson was superb after Jarvi. His recordings of Bax and Vaughan Williams are brilliant (and it's said that his Nielsen is some of the best ever recorded, although I'm not much of a Nielsen fan).


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## Vaneyes

Jeff N said:


> Bryden Thomson was superb after Jarvi. His recordings of Bax and Vaughan Williams are brilliant (and it's said that his Nielsen is some of the best ever recorded, although I'm not much of a Nielsen fan).


Thomson enjoyed some of the Jarvi wake for two years--mainly Martinu and Nielsen. Thomson Bax and RVW were done with the London orchestras, and to a smaller degree, Ulster.


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## tahnak

The tops is wiener philharmoniker


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## Vaneyes

tahnak said:


> The tops is wiener philharmoniker


For the hell of it, my probable "top ten"--VPO, BPO (without Rattle), ACO, LSO, BBC PO, BBC SO, Pittsburgh SO, Chicago SO, Deutsches Symphonie-Orchester Berlin, Staatskapelle Berlin.

Sadly still missing in "top ten" action: NYPO, Cleveland O, Boston SO, Philadelphia O, Philharmonia O, LPO.

Where are all the Toscaninis, Reiners, Szells, Soltis, Karajans, Bernsteins?

Gilbert, Worse-than-most, and Dudi will not do. I expect more.


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## Moscow-Mahler

It's difficult to say, alas I haven't heard most of them LIVE..

1) Concertgebouw with all its conductors
2) Chicago Symphony - Reiner, Solti, sometimes with Boulez and Haitink
3) Berlin Philharmonic under Karajan
4) Vienna Philharmonic in XIXth century' music
5) London Symphony under Abbado and Solti and maybe Sir Colin Davis
6) Philadelphia under Ormandy and Muti
7) Cleveland (Szell, Maazel, Dohnanyi).
8) Oslo Philharmonic under Mariss Jansons
9) Gotteborg Symphony under Neeme Jarvi


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## anshuman

Moscow-Mahler said:


> It's difficult to say, alas I haven't heard most of them LIVE..
> 
> 1) Concertgebouw with all its conductors
> 2) Chicago Symphony - Reiner, Solti, sometimes with Boulez and Haitink
> 3) Berlin Philharmonic under Karajan
> 4) Vienna Philharmonic in XIXth century' music
> 5) London Symphony under Abbado and Solti and maybe Sir Colin Davis
> 6) Philadelphia under Ormandy and Muti
> 7) Cleveland (Szell, Maazel, Dohnanyi).
> 8) Oslo Philharmonic under Mariss Jansons
> 9) Gotteborg Symphony under Neeme Jarvi


Philadelphia under Muti was terrific. I have Beethoven's 3rd,5th,6th,9th by them (EMI) and i have not been able to overcome them.


----------



## Aramis

Birmingham SO also did much of great job with Simon Rattle before he moved to Berlin.


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## superhorn

Ranking orchestras is so subjective as to be futile in my opinion. Different critics,experts and fans rank different orchestras above or below others, and no one agrees entirely on rankings.
It's very easy to rank certain orchestra above others merely because they happen to be more famous. 
The most famous include the Vienna Philharmonic, Berlin Philharmonic,Chicago Symphony, the 
Royal Concertgebouw, the Staatskapelle,Dresden,Czech Philharmonic,Philadelphia orchestra,New York Philharmonic,Boston symphony, Leipzig Gewandhaus orchestra, London Philharmonic,
Cleveland orchestra, Philharmonia orchestra, Los Angeles Philharmonic, St.Petersburg Philharmonic, Bavarian Radio symphony, etc, but there are many other excellent orchestras all over Europe and America and even other countries.


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## Siegmund

I think the Berliner Philharmoniker is my current favorite orchestra, but I love the Concertgebouw and the Vienna as well  I sung with the Berl. Phil. once(with my choir) (with Simon Ratlle ) and loved the sound of the orchestra, especially the bras group was excellent.


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## Moscow-Mahler

Dallas Symphony Orchestra and WDR (West German Radio) Simphony Orchestra are alsos very good.



> or the hell of it, my probable "top ten"--VPO, BPO (without Rattle),


I'm curious about die Berliner Philharmonker... So, you think that Rattle isn't in the same class like his predecessors?

David Hurwitz claims that "Berliners are second-rate orchestra now". He claims that their woodwinds and brass section are mediocre and blames Abbado and Rattle for changing some old musicians to the new ones. What do you think of that?


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## Guest

I wouldn't put too much credence in Hurwitz. He hates everything Karajan ever did. And Hurwitz should watch some of the videos the BPO puts on their website. I dunno, sounds pretty good to me...


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## Moscow-Mahler

Yes, sometimes he is far more critical to European orchestras than to American ones. If the Berliners or Lucerne are "boring" he gives them 6 stars, if Atlanta Symhony Orchestra are "boring" he gives them 9 stars.



> He hates everything Karajan ever did.


In fact, he loves his Mahler's Fifth. And so do I.

I wish to listen to Berliners next spring *LIVE*. Too bad that they are now on EMI. I've never been a fan of EMI's sound engineering.


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## Kurwenal

I would say:

Berlin Phil.
Vienna Philharmonic
Cleveland Orchestra
London Symphony
Concertgebouw (or however you spell it  )
Staatskapelle Dresden
Boston SO


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## Vics

Rondo said:


> I agree with most of those, incl the NY Phil, Berlin, Vienna, London, and Chicago....but what about the San Francisco Sym...quite a group (I would say, in my opinion, and you can take it or leave it, ...second-best to NY Phil in US).


As it is my home town orchestra, I appreciate your remarks! I'll be going to hear Mr. Tillson-Thomas conduct Tchaikovsky's fourth symphony on the 23rd of this month.
Vic


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## david.allsopp

Handel said:


> Difficult to answer.
> 
> In a non-specific order:
> 
> Les Violons du Roy
> Akamedie für Alte Musik Berlin
> La Petite Bande
> Tafelmusik Orchestra
> Orchestra of the Age of Enlightenment
> Orchestra of the 18th century
> Collegium Cartusianum
> Concerto Köln
> London Mozart Players
> Les Musiciens du Louvre
> 
> There are many others but this is my top 10.


We can see what period of music you like!


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## Rasa

I'm going to just come in and be killjoy and comment on the pointlessness of these list.

Not only does an orchestra not maintain it's level and style continuously, I doubt we've all had the chance to listen to these orchestras live (and live is what matters)


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## david.allsopp

Hey Rasa, you make a very important point. Many of us are judging on recordings and there are so many factors that can effect a recording that we may as well say who are are top ten recording companies, or who are our top ten acoustic buildings.

Here's a cat among the pigeons - I can't understand why everyone raves over ancient mono recordings of the 'legendary' orchestras. All the ones I have heard have terrible quality and more wrong notes than an average professional orchestra today would dare play in a season! 

Some might say it is the performance that was exceptional, well I am sorry but a high quality DDD modern recording of ANY piece would own anything recorded 60/70 years ago!

D


----------



## tahnak

Vics said:


> As it is my home town orchestra, I appreciate your remarks! I'll be going to hear Mr. Tillson-Thomas conduct Tchaikovsky's fourth symphony on the 23rd of this month.
> Vic


Is Tilson Thomas still there? I have a Deutsche Grammophon recording of his Winter Dreams with the Boston and it is magical stuff. Fourth should be great with Tilson Thomas.


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## Steve M

Great thread. Area ignorance for me and nice to have some direction when choosing what to buy/download.


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## Moscow-Mahler

Is the *Halle* of Manchester a great orchestra or no? What do you think of them?


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## jflatter

Moscow-Mahler said:


> Is the *Halle* of Manchester a great orchestra or no? What do you think of them?


Since Mark Elder took them over they certainly have become a very good orchestra. Nagano nearly destroyed them.


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## starthrower

A few more for the list:

Seattle Symphony/Gerard Schwarz
Polish Natl Radio Symphony Orch/Antoni Wit
Bournemouth Symphony


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## Moscow-Mahler

I think that *the Philharmonia* (London) is still a great orchestra. Their new string sections is excellent, even on a recording!

***
But if only I would be able to choose a city to live, I chose Berlin. For a 3,5 million (and pretty cheap!!!) city it is great to have ONE great and about three very good orchestras (including DSO-Berlin).

***
This article was very interesting to me:
http://www.mspmag.com/entertainment/music/80691.asp

It's about Minnesota orchestra. BTW, they say that an orchestra member of Big Five orchestras in the USA gets more then 150 000 dollars a year. Or even 500 000 dollars a year. WOW!

What is the year salary for an orchestra member in Germany? In England?


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## kv466

This would really have to be more of a 'Top 100 Orchestras',...at least.


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## Guest

One thing I've learned, living in here in Vienna this year, is that there is little difference between the great orchestras. I've been privileged to hear, at the Musikverein, Theatre an der Wien, Wiener Konzerthaus and Wiener Staatsoper this year, some of the world's greatest orchestras and conductors. They positively glow in the dark and there's not a hair between any of them LIVE. *These are the stunning orchestras I've heard in 2011, LIVE;*
Berliner Philharmoniker, Staatskapelle Dresden, Staatskapelle Berlin, Chicago Symphony, Los Angeles Philharmonic, New York Philharmonic, Vienna Philharmonic, Budapest Festival Orchestra, Leipzig Gewandhausorchestra, National Orchestra of Paris, Concertgebouw Amsterdam, Wiener Staatsoper Orchestra, Concentus Musicus Wien, Musiciens du Louvre, Les Talens Lyrique, Los Angeles Baroque Ensemble. Coming up is Amsterdam Baroque/Koopman and Royal Philharmonic/Dutoit.

YOUR HAIR STANDS ON END WHEN YOU HEAR THEM ALL PLAY. Believe me, it is NOT THE SAME as in recordings. God help me, I've gone to Heaven!!

(I want to pay a special compliment to my wonderful, patient husband who has transported me half way around the world to follow my life-long passion, which he doesn't share. But, hey, I sit through Rugby games on TV!)


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## david.allsopp

*Envy is a sin...*



CountenanceAnglaise said:


> *These are the stunning orchestras I've heard in 2011, LIVE;*
> Berliner Philharmoniker, Staatskapelle Dresden, Staatskapelle Berlin, Chicago Symphony, Los Angeles Philharmonic, New York Philharmonic, Vienna Philharmonic, Budapest Festival Orchestra, Leipzig Gewandhausorchestra, National Orchestra of Paris, Concertgebouw Amsterdam, Wiener Staatsoper Orchestra, Concentus Musicus Wien, Musiciens du Louvre, Les Talens Lyrique, Los Angeles Baroque Ensemble. Coming up is Amsterdam Baroque/Koopman and Royal Philharmonic/Dutoit.
> 
> Oh, what transport of delight. I heard many top orchestras this summer in the Royal Albert Hall but to hear them in the Musikverein would be priceless!


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## GoneBaroque

Rasa said:


> I'm going to just come in and be killjoy and comment on the pointlessness of these list.
> 
> Not only does an orchestra not maintain it's level and style continuously, I doubt we've all had the chance to listen to these orchestras live (and live is what matters)


The closest orchestra to me is The Boston Symphony which i have heard live many times and can look back to the days of Serge Koussevitsky Pierre Monteux, and Charles Munch with much pleasure. Or even Liensdorf or Steinberg. The orchestra certainly went sharply downhill when Ozawa came on the scene and have not significantly improved under Levine's tenure. We hopefully await what the future brings


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## Vaneyes

Interesting how perceptions change. I note that in May of last year, I had LSO in my for-the-hell-of-it Top 10. Based on their usually crappy label LSO Live, and what I saw at the Barbican Hall two weeks ago with Sir Colin Davis, I don't think they're a Top 10 orchestra at the moment. Haydn 92 seemed a run-through with little nuance. Nielsen 1 1st movement was creditable, but bottomed out after that. Only soloist Uchida was able to bring some life, with a powerful LvB PC 3.

Hate to say it, but Sir Colin is only the walking dead anymore. The main line is all he beats to. Some players look bored, and one has attitude that should be controlled. It looked bad from where I was sitting, 12 rows away. Checking her texts on stage?

Meanwhile, Gergiev is all over the place geographically, with screwy readings, and not enough rehearsal.

I think yo-yo'ing 'tween Gergiev and Davis has hurt the LSO. They need a different conductor pronto. Guest conductors will occasionally inspire, but the MD is the key. Only the VPO can be the VPO with musical podiums.


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## GoneBaroque

I believe something went out of the life of Colin Davis last year on the death of his beloved wife.

Here is a link to an article which appeared in the New York Times last Sunday.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/10/16/arts/music/colin-davis-brings-london-symphony-to-carnegie-hall.html?_r=3&ref=music


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## Vaneyes

GoneBaroque said:


> I believe something went out of the life of Colin Davis last year on the death of his beloved wife.
> 
> Here is a link to an article which appeared in the New York Times last Sunday.
> 
> http://www.nytimes.com/2011/10/16/arts/music/colin-davis-brings-london-symphony-to-carnegie-hall.html?_r=3&ref=music


Yes, thank you. I read that yesterday, and deliberated whether to attach it with my previous post. An honest give and take. Maybe too honest for a man still in the game. Anyway, it answered some wonderings I had regarding personal life, and conductor duties.


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## Vesteralen

Things were a lot simpler back in the 1970s. Everyone pretty much agreed the Top US orchestras were: Boston, New York, Philadelphia, Cleveland and Chicago (and the runners-up, in no particular order, were Los Angeles, San Francisco, Pittsburgh, St Louis and Minnesota - I'm forgetting something).

Top non-US orchestras were Berlin, Vienna, London (LSO), Amsterdam, with a bunch of runners-up (my favorite was the Dresden Staatskapelle).

I'm totally lost among today's orchestras, frankly. The reputations seem to rise and fall almost yearly with the conductors playing musical chairs (literally).


----------



## Vaneyes

Vesteralen said:


> Things were a lot simpler back in the 1970s. Everyone pretty much agreed the Top US orchestras were: Boston, New York, Philadelphia, Cleveland and Chicago (and the runners-up, in no particular order, were Los Angeles, San Francisco, Pittsburgh, St Louis and Minnesota - I'm forgetting something).
> 
> Top non-US orchestras were Berlin, Vienna, London (LSO), Amsterdam, with a bunch of runners-up (my favorite was the Dresden Staatskapelle).
> 
> I'm totally lost among today's orchestras, frankly. The reputations seem to rise and fall almost yearly with the conductors playing musical chairs (literally).


Yes, and even simpler prior to, when a good many authoritarians ruled the orchestras and other roosts. Conductors, record companies, impresarios, critics, radio programs, etc. could control to a larger degree what the public was to think.

Powers died, societies changed, orchestra homogeny grew, recording contracts shrunk, computers, internet, etc., etc.

It seemed the old way of doing CM business was a "well-oiled machine" in many ways. It seems rudderless now.


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## Moscow-Mahler

I have never understood the policy of LSO Live. They should use some studio, not Barbican. 
BTW, is Royal Festival Hall better or not? I heard, they had made a renovation...


----------



## david.allsopp

Moscow-Mahler said:


> I have never understood the policy of LSO Live. They should use some studio, not Barbican.
> BTW, is Royal Festival Hall better or not? I heard, they had made a renovation...


Hi, very valid observation. I remember the Vienna vowed never to play again in the Barbican after their first visit. Read a book on LSO and apparently the design was not done by acoustics experts. They spent millions upgrading it and I went to hear Vienna playing Bruckner there last year - awesome. Haven't been in Festival Hall since upgrades.

The hall counts for a lot. Consider Concertgebouw and the Musikverein and Severance Hall in Cleveland. Recordings are clean and glowing. I also think you would be surprised at how amazing the Liverpool Hall is, perhaps that's why they are reluctant to move?


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## Vaneyes

I think there's more to it than the hall acoustics. I found the Barbican sound good, and others like the Royal Festival more these days.

A number of orchestras started their own "live label" when the majors downsized their recording habits. It's become common practice for providing music on the cheap--hard copy or downloading sales.

This 2009 article explains some of the motivation and techniques behind LSO Live! You can see that a carte blanche has not been given to its man at the helm.

http://www.artofrecordproduction.com/content/view/217/114/


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## Moscow-Mahler

Interesting article, thanks. Still it is sad that audiophile labels as BIS do not work with such orchestras. I am ready to pay more money for better sound. I've heard a recording by Telarc (which is "dead" now) - Shostakovich and Popov - which was made in W***** Town Hall. It was great.


----------



## Vaneyes

Moscow-Mahler said:


> Interesting article, thanks. Still it is sad that audiophile labels as BIS do not work with such orchestras. I am ready to pay more money for better sound. I've heard a recording by Telarc (which is "dead" now) - Shostakovich and Popov - which was made in W***** Town Hall. It was great.


The LSO Live! problem, as I see it, is that they feel compelled to release everything, good or bad. I think they should be more selective, but that is not their business model...nor others.

BIS (Gothenburg, etc.), Chandos (LSO, LPO, etc.), and others recorded big bands in the gravy days of '80's and '90's. It was a costly studio-recording enterprise that became costlier and costlier...and once their catalogues were filled with core material and a few fringe items, they packed it in for the most part.

Smaller, less notable bands are still used. Most concerti don't fare too badly, but you can't "fake" symphonies. Though they often try, I don't buy.

The "old days" are dead in a lot of repects. Classical music, a luxury item, was/is collateral damage.


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## Moscow-Mahler

Yes, I think that "live" labels should be more selective. Usually, I buy their production, if there are no other modern recordings (or only a few) of that piece (Gurrelieder with Salonen, Faust by Schumann with Harnocourt or Poulenc's Gloria with Jansons).

Yes, I suppose BIS and Hyperion strong side are the concerti recordings, for which Bergen S.O. or BBC Scottish S.O. are good and for which they have sometimes great soloists.

Maybe, BIS will record more discs with Minnesota ... But I don't think it is a good idea to re-record Sibelius with them. They should try something else, *maybe Brahms.*


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## Almaviva

About the need to listen to these orchestras live, sure, it's wonderful, but today there are viable alternatives.
I got a DVD of the Royal Concertgebouw Orchestra with DTS Master 7.1 sound track (which my receiver and speakers are prepared to play) that made my hair stand on end just like CountenanceAnglaise was saying when she listened to them live. For someone like me who is not lucky enough to live in Vienna, these modern surround no-loss sound tracks with good sound engineering are a long way from our old stereo systems.

About listing my favorites, others have done so extensively and I don't have any zebras to add, it's been the good old Berliner Philharmoniker, Wiener Philharmoniker, Royal Concertgebouw, Chicago, NYPO, Cleveland, Boston, etc.

As an opera lover, I'd like to add that the Met Opera Orchestra is a fine one, as is the Vienna Staatsoper, and I love the baroque period instrument orchestras such as Les Arts Florissants and the Orchestra of the Age of Enlightenment, etc. The closest American equivalent which I just saw live last week is the Apollo's Fire Baroque Orchestra.


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## Vaneyes

Almaviva said:


> About the need to listen to these orchestras live, sure, it's wonderful, but today there are viable alternatives.
> I got a DVD of the Royal Concertgebouw Orchestra with DTS Master 7.1 sound track (which my receiver and speakers are prepared to play) that made my hair stand on end just like CountenanceAnglaise was saying when she listened to them live. For someone like me who is not lucky enough to live in Vienna, these modern surround no-loss sound tracks with good sound engineering are a long way from our old stereo systems.
> 
> About listing my favorites, others have done so extensively and I don't have any zebras to add, it's been the good old Berliner Philharmoniker, Wiener Philharmoniker, Royal Concertgebouw, Chicago, NYPO, Cleveland, Boston, etc.
> 
> As an opera lover, I'd like to add that the Met Opera Orchestra is a fine one, as is the Vienna Staatsoper, and I love the baroque period instrument orchestras such as Les Arts Florissants and the Orchestra of the Age of Enlightenment, etc. The closest American equivalent which I just saw live last week is the Apollo's Fire Baroque Orchestra.


I look forward to a HDTV classical music channel with extensive licensing. The Met can do better than showcasing their product in a few movie theaters on Saturday mornings.


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## mleghorn

This is my list, in no particular order, based on what I hear in recordings:

Berlin Philharmonic
Royal Concertgebouw
London Symphony
Tonhalle Zurich
Vienna Philharmonic
Gewandhausorchester Leipzig
Dresden Staatskapelle
Chicago Symphony
Cleveland Orchestra
Philadelphia Orchestra


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## moody

I


david.allsopp said:


> Hey Rasa, you make a very important point. Many of us are judging on recordings and there are so many factors that can effect a recording that we may as well say who are are top ten recording companies, or who are our top ten acoustic buildings.
> 
> Here's a cat among the pigeons - I can't understand why everyone raves over ancient mono recordings of the 'legendary' orchestras. All the ones I have heard have terrible quality and more wrong notes than an average professional orchestra today would dare play in a season!
> 
> Some might say it is the performance that was exceptional, well I am sorry but a high quality DDD modern recording of ANY piece would own anything recorded 60/70 years ago!
> 
> D


I think you have become a pigeon to be shot down, what records of which orchestras ? your statement is nonsense, I am 74 and was going to concerts then and now, I have 7000 recordings and the legendary orchestras were better than anything now. I don't think you have many recordings from 1941, there was a problem then because there was a war on. But you knew that I am sure ???


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## david.allsopp

moody said:


> I
> 
> I think you have become a pigeon to be shot down, what records of which orchestras ? your statement is nonsense, I am 74 and was going to concerts then and now, I have 7000 recordings and the legendary orchestras were better than anything now. I don't think you have many recordings from 1941, there was a problem then because there was a war on. But you knew that I am sure ???


Thanks for saying my post is nonsense, that's not very kind of you. And you seem to be a bit sarcastic at the end as if you suspect I might not have known that the war was on in 1941. To say the legendary orchestras were better than anything now is just wishful thinking or nostalgia. And my point was also that the recording quality is so good today that any decent modern recording will give a better impression.

This





 (0:41:05)

is clearly better than this:






which in turn is certainly better than this:






Sorry you spent all that money on 7000 old recordings, I do hope they bring you great pleasure in your old age.


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## Vaneyes

I think I'm somewhat of a fence-sitter in the old/new debate. Surely, wrong notes can't be mostly attributed to 1941, unless one wants to deny that editing wasn't as big as it is now, and often from several concerts. I recently attended an LSO concert, and I heard wrong notes and deflated notes.

Sound has improved considerably, but it's been pretty good since 1960...with the exception of early digital...which many of us can painfully remember in its early days.

There's a Toscanini Eroica and a Verdi Requiem that I wish had better sound, and maybe one or two better notes, but discerning thought and ears can tell what good there is.


----------



## moody

david.allsopp said:


> Thanks for saying my post is nonsense, that's not very kind of you. And you seem to be a bit sarcastic at the end as if you suspect I might not have known that the war was on in 1941. To say the legendary orchestras were better than anything now is just wishful thinking or nostalgia. And my point was also that the recording quality is so good today that any decent modern recording will give a better impression.
> 
> This
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (0:41:05)
> 
> is clearly better than this:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> which in turn is certainly better than this:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sorry you spent all that money on 7000 old recordings, I do hope they bring you great pleasure in your old age.


I wrote a quick reply to your original post in a hurry as I was annoyed. But now that I've had the chance to read your rejoinder I know what you're all about. You are not interested in the MUSIC but only the hi-fi noise you can produce from your equipment. You musical examples are laughable and a very unfortunate choice. Abbado doing Mahler, how awful ! Bernstein is no favourite of mine but at least he's interesting, Bruno Walter was probably the greatest Mahler conductor ever. Mahler himself requested that he should work with him at the Viennese Court Opera. So it is your third choice that any body remotely interested in that music should choose.
The Philadelphia Orchestra under Stokowski is generally accepted as the greatest orchestra ever, their electrical recordings were made between 1925--1940 and one can buy many of them on CD.. Koussevitzky's Boston Symphony was famous for its technical perfectio, performances are available on CD, he reorganized it in 1924 and conducted it into the 1950's. The National Broadcasting Corporation of America established an orchestra especially for Toscanini in 1937 and gave Artur Rodzinski, a famous orchestra trainer, the job of preparing it, Pierre Monteaux was also involved. It was perfect and everybody knows what happened when sloppy playing was heard, even at rehearsals, an explosion took place and on occasion toscanini would march out and not be seen for days. With these men you performed or you were gone! I have in front of me Toscanini's 1941 recording with the Philadelphia of Schubert's " Great " symphony --wonderful. Also his live 1944 recording of act 4 of "Rigoletto"--quite amazing. His 1943 performance live from Carnegie Hall with Horowitz, quite extraordinary- -I can't listen to aother recording since I heard it ( the sound is vile ! ).I also look at the recordings of Furtwangler doing Beethoven's 7th and 9th symphonies live at the Old Philharmonic Hall in the 1940's before it was flattened by allied bombing. Nothing like this will ever be heard again !What are you going to do with Rachmaninoffs recordings of his own piano concerti, bin them I suppose ? I hate to think would you would make of 100 year old recordings of Caruso and his contemporaries.
You see I thought this website was for people interested in music and not for hi-fi fanatics.
After WW11 British orchestras were in a bad way, there was an interesting film on the subject " The Battle For Music ", but I suppose I should discard it because it is in black and white. The LPO forinstance travelled from venue on motorcycles and gave a concert everyday or so it seemed. The Americans were lucky they still had the necessary finance to continue. I would remind you that Szell/Cleveland and Reiner/Chicago were operating in the 50's and they were another example of perfect orchestras.
We are looking at the history of recorded music here and people want to know all about these performers why do think there are so many historical reissues ? On the other hand there is nothing wrong with listening to nice tunes played in ultra hi-fi if that is all you want. A recording from last week will naturally sound better than one from 1950 but will it BE better? By the way you still fail to mention which legendary orchestras you we referring to in your post.I have seen most of the " legends " and if things were better now I would say so .The thing is that these conductors had complete power that unfortunately is no longer allowed as the orchestras are mostly self-governing so you are no longer playing for your job. The strange thing is ---not many of the players walked out !
Oh well, maybe you will change your attitude as you grow up.


----------



## mleghorn

Listening to an old mono recording of Ravel (e.g. Rhapsody Espanol) is like looking at faded, black and white print of a Monet painting.

Having said that, I do enjoy listening to some stereo recordings from the 50s (e.g. Reiner / CSO) because of their historical value. 

I listen to music because I enjoy it -- a lot. My listening time, after my wife and daughter have gone to bed, is sacred to me, so I try to make the best use of it, and maximize my enjoyment. To those ends I find that I gravitate towards higher quality recordings.


----------



## moody

I think you are right in the case of the Ravel work. It is a technicolour thing and should be seen in technicolour, I don't really care how the master conductors did it but just like to enjoy it, in my case Paul Paray and the Detroit Orch. a great Mercury recording.


----------



## Vaneyes

Szell liked to say, "Listening to music on records is like being kissed over the telephone."

With that in mind, the orchestras I would currently like to hear in concert are Chicago Symphony Orchestra, Vienna Philharmonic Orchestra, Amsterdam Concertgebouw Orchestra, Chamber Orchestra of Europe, Mahler Chamber Orchestra, Kremerata Baltica, and Budapest Festival Orchestra.


----------



## david.allsopp

I'm sorry moody we will have to agree to disagree. I'm actually 49 so not quite as young as you might think! And your tone is too unfriendly, I shall not reply to you again after this, regardless. There is no need for ad hominem attacks when my opinion is a valid as yours. I didn't train at the Royal Academy of Music for 3 years and take up professional music to be accused of only being interested in hi-fi. If you think that scratchy mono recordings of less well-trained musicians are preferable then as I said before, enjoy them - but I like to actually be able to hear the whole orchestra playing.

I have a bucket list of orchestras that I am working through and no recording can quite represent the concert experience, nevertheless modern technology does a better job. As for standards of playing, I will always argue that the current Berlin plays at a higher standard than Furtwanglers orchestra for example. I will also argue that the reason Szell was so successful at Cleveland is because he pulled up the standard and that has continued. Here's a parallel, there was a time when no man could run a mile in under 4minutes. Now they do it regularly. I know that technique isn't everything but try making sensational music without it.


----------



## moody

Although you don't intend to reply to me again I'm bound to answer your last effort . Actually it won't make much difference because you don't reply to my points in any case. You make the assertion that a modern recording sounds better than an old one ,OK who is going to argue ? But that does not mean that the modern recording is a good performance, you seem unable to understand this and it's so basic. You are also at odds with with the majority of people who contact this forum. Why the talk of of scratchy old mono LP's, I have lots of them but they are not scratchy . I still have the first one I bought in the early 50's and it is almost perfect. You look after LPs very carefully, I even have a cleaning machine that cleans them with alcohol .When I first started collecting in the 40's we had 78rpm records made from shellac that were easily broken and had a few minutes of music on each side. They were played with a massive pickup with steel needles and the gramophone had to be wound up often. Now they could definiitely be scratchy, but we loved every lousy sound that came out of those old machines. But we knew that that sound bore little resemblance to what a live orchestra sounded like, but it mattered not because we were listening to music. You jump on my mention of Furtwaengler and the Berlin Phil. of the 1940's but you must know that the orchestra had been decimated by the removal of Jewish players and the demands of the armed forces Nevertheless if you think that Simon Rattle and the present Berlin Phil. can give a performance that in any way at all challenges the really sensational live 1943 performance you are mistaken .
I have just listened to the last two movements and although I am lacking your Royal Academy trained ear and years of professional experience I fail to hear bad notes and ensemble despite the almost ridiculous speed that is attained in places.
The case of the Four Minute Mile is as faulty as some of your other assertions. Roger Bannister was a rank amateur with a real job but modern athletes are pretty well full time and are supplied thousands in sponsorship. and have plenty of time to train. 
As for the Cleveland Orchestra, Szell took over in 1946 when they were a fairly ordinary concern and fired half of the membership . Over the next ten years he built them up to what was probably the most brilliant orchestra in the world, absolute perfection was demanded..So that would be in the mid 50's so where does that leave your remarks about standards sixty years ago ? I think that you don't understand why people compile large collections of past performances . This gives them the a chance to compare and learn about the giants from the past and how they approached things. If you want the latest sound go to a concert or listen to BBC3 ( in the UK ) the best classical radio channel in the world.However in the case of rubbish music like "Scheherazade" or jolly stuff like von Suppe overtures, Strauss waltzes, etc. modern sound is best, a 1930's recording of Rimsky wouldn't do much for you would it? I remember a night when four of us spent five hours playing different versions of an operatic aria , arguing and getting smashed, that's what it's all about. Incidentally, have you heard 1950's recordings from Everest, Mercury, RCA Living Stereo or Decca (London), they are pretty hot stuff.
Lastly, what really worries me is that nowhere do you mention artistic standards and performance, that is the point of all this.


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## NightHawk

in no particular order: Concertgebouw, Wien, Berlin, Cleveland, San Francisco.


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## tannhaeuser

1) Wiener Philharmoniker
2) Philharmonia/New Philharmonia Orchestra
3) Berliner Philharmoniker
4) New York Philharmonic Orchestra
5) Chicago Symphony Orchestra
6) Leningrad Philharmonic Orchestra
7) London Symphony Orchestra
8) Lucerne Festival Orchestra
9) Munich State Radio Orchestra
10) Leipzig Gewandhaus Orchestra


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## flylooper

Geez, "rating" orchestras (at least among the well known) as among the best is so subjective to begin with. Same with conductors. I could probably name a few of either I don't prefer to hear but there's just no No. 1, IMHO; or, for that matter, a No. 5 or a No. 10. Too many variables.


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## Vaneyes

flylooper said:


> Geez, "rating" orchestras (at least among the well known) as among the best is so subjective to begin with. Same with conductors. I could probably name a few of either I don't prefer to hear but there's just no No. 1, IMHO; or, for that matter, a No. 5 or a No. 10. Too many variables.


Yes, but it can be fun and interesting. See TC threads analyzing lists and ratings.

The greatest living conductors? I'd argue there are four (in no particular order) Haitink, Boulez, Muti, Abbado. I think the drop-off is significant after these four.

The variables I'm thinking of are quality of work live and recorded, orchestras, composers, genre. Boulez comes up a little short in core classical and opera, but makes up for it in his contribution to modern, and extensive Mahler and Bruckner performances. Muti is short in Mahler and Bruckner performances, but makes up for it in core classical and opera. So on and so forth.


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## DavidMahler

concertgebouw


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## appoggiatura

Every orchestra has it's qualities, but Berliner Philarmoniker, Royal Concertgebouw Orchestra and Vienna Symphony Orchestra are outstanding.


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## emiellucifuge

appoggiatura said:


> Every orchestra has it's qualities, but Berliner Philarmoniker, Royal Concertgebouw Orchestra and Vienna Symphony Orchestra are outstanding.


Do you ever go to the Concertgebouw?


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## appoggiatura

Last time was a couple of years ago.
De Doelen (Rotterdams Philharmonisch Orkest) is closer to my house so I go there more often.
That is also quite a good orchestra. Especially when Gergiev was the director...


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## SHL

My choices are in no order: Chicago, Concertgebouw, Berliner, Vienna, London


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## moody

I wonder why nobody mentions the Suisse Romande Orchestra ? They did a UK tour a couple of years ago and they were fantastic.


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## emiellucifuge

Sure theyre good and Ive seen them live also, but wouldnt compare them to some of the other mentioned yet


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## moody

emiellucifuge said:


> Sure theyre good and Ive seen them live also, but wouldnt compare them to some of the other mentioned yet


I wonder what you mean by "yet". This was Ernest Asermet's orchestra for 49 years and he made many legendary recordingsa for British Decca. Some of these were going for £150 second hand at one time. Fortunately they are being reissued on Ausralian Eloquence. Their present conductor is Neeme Jarvi, when I saw them it was Marek Janowski. I can also assure you that I know whether an orchestra an orchestra is good or not as I've been going to concerts since 1947


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## emiellucifuge

By 'yet' I meant orchestras that have so far been mentioned in this thread.

I dont doubt what you say.


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## david.allsopp

Huilunsoittaja said:


> Royal Scottish National Orchestra. <3
> 
> Hands down, besides Russian orchestras, they have made *the *best Russian Classical Music Recordings.


I agree, their cycle of Glazanov under José Serebrier is unsurpassed in playing and recording.


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## addieruss

In a non-specific order:

Les Violons du Roy
Akamedie für Alte Musik Berlin
La Petite Bande
Tafelmusik Orchestra
Orchestra of the Age of Enlightenment
Orchestra of the 18th century
Collegium Cartusianum
Concerto Köln
London Mozart Players
Les Musiciens du Louvre


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde

addieruss said:


> In a non-specific order:
> 
> Les Violons du Roy
> Akamedie für Alte Musik Berlin
> La Petite Bande
> Tafelmusik Orchestra
> Orchestra of the Age of Enlightenment
> Orchestra of the 18th century
> Collegium Cartusianum
> Concerto Köln
> London Mozart Players
> Les Musiciens du Louvre


I'm quite a fan of historically informed performances too.


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## Pestouille

Vienna
Berlin
Concertgebouw
Münchner
NDR
Gewandhaus
Staatskapelle
Orchestra of the Age of Enlightment
Les Musiciens du Louvre
CSO


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## PetrB

opus67 said:


> And that's why I think everyone should also list a period along with each orchestra. The members (of the orchestra) change, and more importantly the directors/conductors change, and that seems to be the biggest influence on the listener.


It (the Cleveland) is still one of the greatest orchestras of the world. The Vienna Philharmonic, The Berlin Philharmonic, The Chicago Symphony, The Boston Symphony, the Concertgewbouw Orchestra, have all been great orchestras under various conductors, and are all some of the world's greatest right now.

To that other point someone made, on any given night, a 'lesser' orchestra, one of the many fine state radio orchestras throughout Europe, or the Milwaukee Philharmonic, might have a night where they are 'the best orchestra in the world.'


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## tgtr0660

For big orchestras: Berliner Philharmoniker (though a little less under Abbado and Rattle), Chicago (since Reiner and specially Solti), Concertgebouw, Wiener Philharmoniker, London Symphony, Gewandhaus (in spite of the rushed conducting, their playing in Beethoven's cycle is something for the ages). 

But none beats Le Concert des Nations under maestro Jordi Savall for baroque and earlier music. Just sublime, sublime. After that one, we have others like Akamedie für Alte Musik Berlin, Freiburgbarockorchester, and the usual British suspect in the HIP world (English BAroque Soloists, etc).


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde

^^^I love Freiburger Barockorckester!


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## Moscow-Mahler

Is Bavarian Radio Orchestra so great? I've heard them live only once, they were good, esp. strings. And I have some recordings with them. And I absolutely love their chorus, maybe Bernstein was right then he praised them.

But sometimes I found their brass to be somewhat strangely *shy* in comparasion not only to Chicago or LSO or LPO, but to many German and Dutch orchestras such as BPO, VPO, DSO-Berlin, Gewandhaus, Concertgebouw.

Could you explain me this difference in the brass sound?


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## tgtr0660

I'm not sure but I'm going to see both the Bavarian Radio and the Berlin Philharmonic live in May!


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde

My top ten:

1. Bach Collegium Japan, Australian Chamber Orchestra (tie)
2. Academy of Ancient Music, Australian Brandenburg Orchestra (tie)
3. Freiburg Barockorchester
4. Akademie für Alte Musik Berlin
5. Le Concert de Nations
6. English Baroque Soloists
7. Orchestra Revolutionnaire et Romantique
8. Concerto Köln
9. The English Concert
10. Berliner Philharmoniker


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## david.allsopp

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> My top ten:
> 
> 1. Bach Collegium Japan, Australian Chamber Orchestra (tie)
> 2. Academy of Ancient Music, Australian Brandenburg Orchestra (tie)
> 3. Freiburg Barockorchester
> 4. Akademie für Alte Musik Berlin
> 5. Le Concert de Nations
> 6. English Baroque Soloists
> 7. Orchestra Revolutionnaire et Romantique
> 8. Concerto Köln
> 9. The English Concert
> 10. Berliner Philharmoniker


Hey, ComposerOfAvantGarde, that's cheating - you have 12 in the list!

I think we can all safely assume you like period orchestras best!


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde

david.allsopp said:


> Hey, ComposerOfAvantGarde, that's cheating - you have 12 in the list!
> 
> I think we can all safely assume you like period orchestras best!


So I did cheat a bit. But who cares? I had to fit all of them on the list _somehow._


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## perempe

I've heard the same piece (Pictures at an...) from Wiener Symphoniker/Dutoit and Budapest Philharmonic Orchestra/Pinchas Steinberg within 2 months. The difference was the conducting, the musicians were excellent.


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