# "Are they actually a mezzo?"



## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

I'm sure I'm not the only one who has noticed a dearth of deep voiced singers (esp female) in modern opera. a number of singers bill themselves as "mezzos", but lack a lower register altogether. anyway, I thought it would be fun to take a look at modern mezzos and ask...are they really a mezzo, or are they just a soprano with bad technique and/or who has been pushed down into the wrong rep by inexperienced teachers. 

for starters, let me know your thoughts on the following 

1) Elina Garanca 
2) Cecilia Bartoli
3) Joyce DiDonato 
4) Dolora Zajick 
5) Jaime Barton


----------



## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

also, fwiw, I think "coloratura mezzo" is a completely made up concept that doesn't actually correspond to a type of voice. 99% of the time, it's just a category for under-developed sopranos who try to use vocal runs to conceal problems with technique. obviously, real mezzos capable of singing coloratura do exist (see Ebe Stignani, Shirley Verrett, etc), but they just bill themselves as "mezzo", "dramatic mezzo", etc. before the 60s, you never really hear of "coloratura mezzo" being a thing. all mezzos had deep voices and powerful chest tones, not just the dramatic ones. if you had a "medium" voice, you would probably train as a spinto or dramatic soprano rather than a mezzo of any kind.


----------



## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Jaime has a gorgeous, huge voice with an extension up to C, but is most definitely mezzo in color. No doubt about it. Full chest voice. I heard her live in a small theater. One of the great concerts of my life.
Dolora is also a mezzo with a high C and strong chest notes.
Some mezzo said most mezzos sing coloratura because there are so few mezzo roles you learn how to do it to keep employed.
Donato is a mezzo who sounds like a soprano. Bartoli has a big range, but her voice lies in a mezzo range and she uses chest.


----------



## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

> for starters, let me know your thoughts on the following
> 1) Elina Garanca
> 2) Cecilia Bartoli
> 3) Joyce DiDonato
> ...


1) spinto soprano
2) vocal duck billed platypus 
3) lyric soprano 
4) dramatic soprano
5) actually a mezzo


----------



## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

Seattleoperafan said:


> Jaime has a gorgeous, huge voice with an extension up to C, but is most definitely mezzo in color. No doubt about it. Full chest voice. I heard her live in a small theater. One of the great concerts of my life.


agreed



> Dolora is also a mezzo with a high C and strong chest notes.


imo, she's a dramatic soprano, but this is one of those "close enough" examples where I don't feel compelled to split hairs



> Some mezzo said most mezzos sing coloratura because there are so few mezzo roles you learn how to do it to keep employed.


exactly. it's a technique, not really a voice type other than for soprano (ex: a lyric soprano like Eleanor Steber and a coloratura soprano like Luisa Tetrazzini clearly have different instruments)



> Donato is a mezzo who sounds like a soprano.


I guess this is where we differ. to me, timbre and voice type are too closely related. naturally, there will always be some variation. ex: maybe you can be a mezzo and have a timbre like Helen Traubel or Ghena Dimitrova, but a mezzo that sounds like a lyric soprano? that's way off. it's like playing something with the timbre of a flute and claiming it's a saxophone


----------



## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

many bigger voiced dramatic soprani can convincingly sing mezzo roles. I don't mind that as much, especially given a shortage of real mezzos, but many lighter soprani have highjacked a lot of the rep. generally, they come in two varieties 
1) the aforementioned "coloratura mezzos" who basically say "no, I'm a mezzo, I just don't sound remotely like one because I sing coloratura" 
2) lyric/spinto soprani employing an ingolata, potato-in-the-throat style of singing which people mistake for having a "dark" voice (admittedly, sometimes this can sound good by accident. ex: I enjoy Ewa Podles from time to time). 

in either event, I don't think most people know what a real mezzo even sounds like any more. they tend to associate clarity with high voices and expect lower voices (not just mezzos) to sing with mushy, artificially darkened voice devoid of real core.


----------



## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

This is interesting and I would note that the difference between a soprano and lyric mezzo can be as slight and difficult to determine as that between a dramatic baritone and a lyric bass. I can see how a soprano with limited technique may end up singing as a lyric mezzo because they haven't acquired their high notes. I'm not sure about the singers listed, but Garanca and Zajick are mezzos to my ear, with Barton possibly being a contralto.

I think the issue is not so much one of sopranos calling themselves mezzos, but that we have lost contralto as a label and we now call mezzos and contraltos mezzos. If DiDonato and Bartoli are mezzos, then they are lyric mezzos, whereas Zajick and Garanca are dramatic mezzos. Barton would be a contralto.

We seem to be moving towards calling sopranos and lyric mezzos all sopranos and dramatic mezzos and contraltos all mezzos, whilst the term contralto is going out of fashion. Whist I would posit that voice categories are necessary for singers and singing teachers for a certain period of a singer's study, it's more important to get the roles right, no matter what system is used.

N.


----------



## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

The Conte said:


> We seem to be moving towards calling sopranos and lyric mezzos all sopranos and dramatic mezzos and contraltos all mezzos, whilst the term contralto is going out of fashion. Whist I would posit that voice categories are necessary for singers and singing teachers for a certain period of a singer's study, it's more important to get the roles right, no matter what system is used.
> 
> N.


Many years ago I seem to remember reading an interview with Christa Ludwig, in which she talked about her once toying with becoming a soprano. As we all know, she sang Leonore, the Dyer's Wife, the Marschallin and even considered Brünnhilde, but eventually decided that, despite having the notes, the _tessitura_ was wrong for her. Wisely she remained a mezzo.


----------



## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

Tsaraslondon said:


> Many years ago I seem to remember reading an interview with Christa Ludwig, in which she talked about her once toying with becoming a soprano. As we all know, she sang Leonore, the Dyer's Wife, the Marschallin and even considered Brünnhilde, but eventually decided that, despite having the notes, the _tessitura_ was wrong for her. Wisely she remained a mezzo.


Yes and I think she was most definitely a mezzo and not a soprano or contralto and a dramatic mezzo as opposed to a lyric. She may have ventured into soprano and contralto rep (Ulrica on the Solti Ballo), but those were exceptions and happened once she was already in career and had a fully working voice and technique. Would some think she isn't a real mezzo, but is a dramatic soprano these days?

N.


----------



## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

BalalaikaBoy said:


> agreed
> 
> imo, she's a dramatic soprano, but this is one of those "close enough" examples where I don't feel compelled to split hairs
> 
> ...


Thanks for your reactions. I can see how people would consider Dolora a dramatic soprano. She could sing The Queen of the Night after a night of singing. All I will say is after a long career she still sings with a healthy voice, so her choice didn't hurt her voice. She had a secure high C, but it wasn't the glory note like B5's were for her. The opposite was early Callas and Sutherland, both of whom had wonderful high C's, but their glory notes were D5's.
Dimitrova was an odd case of having such a shockingly huge voice and great technique that she was equally effective as Turandot and Amneris. I think she avoided some of the problems that creeped into Verrett's voice simply by the freakish size of her instrument.
Donato sounds like a lyric soprano, but I wonder if it was the tessitura problem that led her to choose a mezzo career. My sister taught voice for ages and said most women have the range of a mezzo soprano, even though most starring roles are written for sopranos.


----------



## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

Like sopranos, tenors and baritones, I think that mezzos also have a range of sounds -- some with deeper tones and some with higher ones --who could almost sound like a soprano, but to me they are nonetheless definitely mezzos. Case in point: Elena Garanca.
Also an interesting example might be that the very well known mezzo Marian Anderson seemed to have a lighter sound but could really get to those low chest tones.


----------



## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

Seattleoperafan said:


> Jaime has a gorgeous, huge voice with an extension up to C, but is most definitely mezzo in color. No doubt about it. Full chest voice. I heard her live in a small theater. One of the great concerts of my life.
> Dolora is also a mezzo with a high C and strong chest notes.
> Some mezzo said most mezzos sing coloratura because there are so few mezzo roles you learn how to do it to keep employed.
> Donato is a mezzo who sounds like a soprano. Bartoli has a big range, but her voice lies in a mezzo range and she uses chest.


Totally agree with your above statement.


----------



## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

The Conte said:


> This is interesting and I would note that the difference between a soprano and lyric mezzo can be as slight and difficult to determine as that between a dramatic baritone and a lyric bass. I can see how a soprano with limited technique may end up singing as a lyric mezzo because they haven't acquired their high notes. I'm not sure about the singers listed, but Garanca and Zajick are mezzos to my ear, with Barton possibly being a contralto.
> 
> I think the issue is not so much one of sopranos calling themselves mezzos, but that we have lost contralto as a label and we now call mezzos and contraltos mezzos. If DiDonato and Bartoli are mezzos, then they are lyric mezzos, whereas Zajick and Garanca are dramatic mezzos. Barton would be a contralto.
> 
> N.


I've often toyed with the question of baritones and mezzos need separate sub-fach. imo, for baritone and mezzo, "lyric" is still a fairly heavy voice. like, you have baritones that sit a little higher like Ettore Bastiannini, Sherrill Milnes or Nelson Eddy, and baritones that sit a little lower like Robert Merrill, Apollo Granforte or Hvorostovsky, but for the most part, they would sing pretty much the same rep. the former will tend to a bit more ringing and metallic, the latter a bit creamier, with some bass-y undertones (your truly falls into the latter category. most people tell me I'm a bass), but in both cases, they're capable of fairly powerful, dramatic sound and will have a darker timbre than a tenor.

here's an example of what I mean. Nelson Eddy is generally agreed upon to be a lyric baritone, but imo, his was voice is easily powerful enough to handle roles like Rigoletto had he chosen to go in that direction.





mezzos are the same. some like Ebe Stignani, Elena Nicolai and Giulietta Simionato sat a bit higher, while others like Oralia Dominguez and Elena Obraztsova sat a bit higher.

for basses and contraltos, there is dramatic and REALLY dramatic. ex: people call Samuel Ramey a "lyric bass", but his voice is heavier than any tenor and 95% of baritones.



> We seem to be moving towards calling sopranos and lyric mezzos all sopranos and dramatic mezzos and contraltos all mezzos, whilst the term contralto is going out of fashion. Whist I would posit that voice categories are necessary for singers and singing teachers for a certain period of a singer's study, it's more important to get the roles right, no matter what system is used.


I can agree that there almost seems to be a No True Scotsman around "that's not a REAL contralto!" they're treated as if they're mythical creatures who don't actually exist half the time


----------



## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

BalalaikaBoy,

that's a great reply, although I'm not sure what you mean when you say, ""lyric" is still a fairly heavy voice."? When I use the word lyric in relation to voices I mean a light voice. If you mean that many singers described as a lyric this or that have quite heavy voices, then yes, that can be the case.

N.


----------



## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

The Conte said:


> BalalaikaBoy,
> 
> that's a great reply, although I'm not sure what you mean when you say, ""lyric" is still a fairly heavy voice."? When I use the word lyric in relation to voices I mean a light voice. If you mean that many singers described as a lyric this or that have quite heavy voices, then yes, that can be the case.
> 
> N.


sorry, I'll clarify: when I say "lyric" I mean "comparatively lyric" vs "comparatively dramatic". I don't think "light baritones" or "light mezzos" exist, just that some are lighter than others (ex: Bastianini's voice is lighter than Granforte's). I think they're tenors and sopranos not taught proper technique

in spite of this, they generally still sing the same rep, so imo, there is less need for specific fach than with soprani and tenors.


----------



## Bonetan (Dec 22, 2016)

There were people in the early stages of Dolora's career who tried to make her a soprano, but she resisted, knowing the tessitura wasn't right for her. I've been a part of conversations where she's discussed this exact topic. Given her success and longevity, Dolora knew best!


----------



## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

BalalaikaBoy said:


> 1) spinto soprano
> 2)* vocal duck billed platypus *
> 3) lyric soprano
> 4) dramatic soprano
> 5) actually a mezzo


:lol::lol::lol:


----------



## Azol (Jan 25, 2015)

Sometimes it's a matter of repertoire preference. Is Waltraud Meier a mezzo or dramatic soprano without some of the high notes? Isolde is considered a soprano role, Carmen is mezzo and Eboli is a strange beast hard to categorize. She sang them all.


----------



## Parley (May 29, 2021)

BalalaikaBoy said:


> 1) spinto soprano
> 2) vocal duck billed platypus
> 3) lyric soprano
> 4) dramatic soprano
> 5) actually a mezzo


In 1-4 your classifications are very odd as they are all listed as mezzos.


----------



## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Azol said:


> Sometimes it's a matter of repertoire preference. Is Waltraud Meier a mezzo or dramatic soprano without some of the high notes? Isolde is considered a soprano role, Carmen is mezzo and Eboli is a strange beast hard to categorize. She sang them all.


To me her voice was more soprano sounding. She was magnificent as Kundry and Isolde... the latter on DVD.


----------



## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

Parley said:


> In 1-4 your classifications are very odd as they are all listed as mezzos.


that's my point though, I think a lot of singers choose the wrong rep, and that's a big reason we don't have as many glorious voices as in the golden age.


----------



## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Having read much of the above as quickly as possible so as to avoid falling into a coma, I have to remark on the extreme subjectivity of vocal classification on any basis other than physical comfort and artistic effectiveness in meeting specifically musical requirements. This is especially true as regards timbre, which is so variable and so much a matter of taste that it seems to me a minor consideration. Would BalalikaBoy really wish that Joyce DiDonato had chosen to give us yet more Mimis or Micaelas in a world flooded with them rather than the compelling performances that make her Rossini and Handel exciting to those of us who would otherwise prefer to listen to something else? Who cares that her timbre isn't Simionato's or Supervia's? I think Christa Ludwig - mezzo cum contralto cum soprano - had it right: you sing where your voice, properly schooled in the fundamentals all singers should learn, is most comfortable. 

With that, having avoided coma, I shall go to bed with every hope of waking up to a sensible reply. Good night.


----------



## Parley (May 29, 2021)

BalalaikaBoy said:


> that's my point though, I think a lot of singers choose the wrong rep, and that's a big reason we don't have as many glorious voices as in the golden age.


Interesting that no-one else appears to agree! Neither do the singers themselves! Anyone who hears Joyce singing Handel or Rossini wouldn't either.


----------



## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

Woodduck said:


> Having read much of the above as quickly as possible so as to avoid falling into a coma, I have to remark on the extreme subjectivity of vocal classification on any basis other than physical comfort and artistic effectiveness in meeting specifically musical requirements. This is especially true as regards timbre, which is so variable and so much a matter of taste that it seems to me a minor consideration. *Would BalalikaBoy really wish that Joyce DiDonato had chosen to give us yet more Mimis or Micaelas in a world flooded with them rather than the compelling performances that make her Rossini and Handel exciting to those of us who would otherwise prefer to listen to something else?* Who cares that her timbre isn't Simionato's or Supervia's? I think Christa Ludwig - mezzo cum contralto cum soprano - had it right: you sing where your voice, properly schooled in the fundamentals all singers should learn, is most comfortable.
> 
> With that, having avoided coma, I shall go to bed with every hope of waking up to a sensible reply. Good night.


no, but largely because I think Mimi and Micaela are kinda boring. also, let's not forget that Rossini....also has soprano roles that require agility.






Edit: anyway, I know you don't like hair splitting or obfuscating attempts to categorizing. fortunately, the point I'm driving home is much more simple: if you sound like a soprano, you are a soprano. if you sound like a mezzo, you are a mezzo. sure, there are voices more in the grey area (Zajick, Verrett, Ponselle, and at least a dozen others), it's a pretty good rule of thumb, and you'll notice it's true for most of the world's best singers (especially given you're a connoisseur of golden age singers like I am)


----------



## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

Parley said:


> Interesting that no-one else appears to agree! Neither do the singers themselves! Anyone who hears Joyce singing Handel or Rossini wouldn't either.


fwiw, I don't find Joyce Didonato's work particularly offensive. an occasional lighter voice dipping into deeper repertoire isn't a big deal. it's a bigger deal when actual deep voices are practically dying off in favor of handing their rep over to lighter voices. the modern generation of singers has nothing approaching the powers of an Obraztsova, Simionato, Stignani, etc.

if anything, this criticism is levied more at the opera companies themselves than the singers, since they are generally the ones with more creative control and more options of who to pick.


----------



## Parley (May 29, 2021)

BalalaikaBoy said:


> fwiw, I don't find Joyce Didonato's work particularly offensive. an occasional lighter voice dipping into deeper repertoire isn't a big deal. it's a bigger deal when actual deep voices are practically dying off in favor of handing their rep over to lighter voices. the modern generation of singers has nothing approaching the powers of an Obraztsova, Simionato, Stignani, etc.
> 
> if anything, this criticism is levied more at the opera companies themselves than the singers, since they are generally the ones with more creative control and more options of who to pick.


So glad you don't find one of the great singers of our day offensive. Good for you! I bet she is thrilled!


----------



## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

I am at a total loss in understanding the logic of trying to shoehorn singers into one of two categories rather than recognizing that voice types are not binary, they cover the gamut, as do most other human characteristics. As, it should be noted, do the various roles. If an accomplished singer or teacher of the late 19th century were to read this thread, they would probably think that human intelligence had gone seriously downhill. Hint: Cornélie Falcon, Louise-Rosalie Lefebvre


----------



## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

Parley said:


> So glad you don't find one of the great singers of our day offensive. Good for you! I bet she is thrilled!


I would appreciate if you at least attempted to give something more substantive than a simple sarcastic deflection, but anyway...

that's the problem though. I won't deny she is "one of the greatest singers of our day". the problem is that 60 years ago, this would have only been considered _good_ rather than _great_ singing. her abilities are maybe 20% of Giulietta Simionato or 10% of 20% of Elena Obraztsova. at present, the closest thing we have is Dolora Zajick. again, by no means a bad singer, but a mere fraction of the quality produced during the golden age.

I realize I come across like an old man pining for the halcyon days. in most cases, I try to avoid being that guy because it means shutting off one's curiosity, but in the case of opera...it's just true.


----------



## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

BalalaikaBoy said:


> I would appreciate if you at least attempted to give something more substantive than a simple sarcastic deflection, but anyway...
> 
> that's the problem though. I won't deny she is "one of the greatest singers of our day". the problem is that 60 years ago, this would have only been considered _good_ rather than _great_ singing. her abilities are maybe 20% of Giulietta Simionato or 10% of 20% of Elena Obraztsova. at present, the closest thing we have is Dolora Zajick. again, by no means a bad singer, but a mere fraction of the quality produced during the golden age.
> 
> I realize I come across like an old man pining for the halcyon days. in most cases, I try to avoid being that guy because it means shutting off one's curiosity, but in the case of opera...it's just true.


Maybe I've totally misunderstood you, but you seem to have a problem with mezzos who don't sound like Simionato, or Barbieri or Obrastzova (a singer I've never enjoyed in anythhing, by the way). Well, how about mezzos like Frederica Von Stade, or Janet Baker, or Lorraine Hunt Lieberstod. None of them would ever have attmpted Amneris or Azucena (thank heavens), but does that make them lyric sopranos? I was listening recently to Von Stade singing Cenerentola's final aria and I noted not only that her top register was free and easy, but that her voice was very rich down below. Furthermore she was the very embodiment of the character, which is really what's important to me. In fact I prefer her, _in this piece_, to Simionato, who sounds much too beefy for me. In any case, despite Von Stade's lighter, brighter sound, she still sounds like a mezzo to me.


----------



## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

Tsaraslondon said:


> Maybe I've totally misunderstood you, but you seem to have a problem with mezzos who don't sound like Simionato, or Barbieri or Obrastzova (a singer I've never enjoyed in anythhing, by the way). Well, how about mezzos like Frederica Von Stade, or Janet Baker, or Lorraine Hunt Lieberstod. None of them would ever have attmpted Amneris or Azucena (thank heavens), but does that make them lyric sopranos? I was listening recently to Von Stade singing Cenerentola's final aria and I noted not only that her top register was free and easy, but that her voice was very rich down below. Furthermore she was the very embodiment of the character, which is really what's important to me. In fact I prefer her, _in this piece_, to Simionato, who sounds much too beefy for me. In any case, despite Von Stade's lighter, brighter sound, she still sounds like a mezzo to me.


Janet Baker is closer to what I think of as a lyric mezzo. her voice was much darker and richer than FVS's (another "pleasant, but no real depth of power" kind of voices).


----------



## Bonetan (Dec 22, 2016)

I think saying voice types are supposed to sound a certain way leads to artificiality in singing, and I think that's one of the biggest problems among modern day singers. If my boy Plancon came along today he'd probably be told he doesn't sound like a bass and be encouraged to sing baritone or add fake darkness to his sound ala Abdrazakov. Instead of telling singers what a voice type is supposed to sound like I think we should encourage them to find the sound and sing the rep that is most natural and comfortable to them.


----------



## Parley (May 29, 2021)

BalalaikaBoy said:


> I would appreciate if you at least attempted to give something more substantive than a simple sarcastic deflection, but anyway...
> 
> that's the problem though. I won't deny she is "one of the greatest singers of our day". *the problem is that 60 years ago,* this would have only been considered _good_ rather than _great_ singing. her abilities are maybe 20% of Giulietta Simionato or 10% of 20% of Elena Obraztsova. at present, the closest thing we have is Dolora Zajick. again, by no means a bad singer, but a mere fraction of the quality produced during the golden age.
> 
> I realize I come across like an old man pining for the halcyon days. in most cases, I try to avoid being that guy because it means shutting off one's curiosity, but in the case of opera...it's just true.


The fact is that 60 years ago most of the repertoire she is singing would not have been sung, especially in the way it is now sung. It is absolutely pointless comparing Di Donato with Simionato as they sung mostly different repertoire. Where it did overlap their strengths are complementary


----------



## Parley (May 29, 2021)

BalalaikaBoy said:


> Janet Baker is closer to what I think of as a lyric mezzo. her voice was much darker and richer than FVS's (another "pleasant, but no real depth of power" kind of voices).


Your comment here is revealing. You are just giving your personal opinion on what sort of voice you prefer not on the objective quality of the singing. That is fine as long as you realise it is just a personal opinion.


----------



## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

Bonetan said:


> I think saying voice types are supposed to sound a certain way leads to artificiality in singing, and I think that's one of the biggest problems among modern day singers. If my boy Plancon came along today he'd probably be told he doesn't sound like a bass and be encouraged to sing baritone or add fake darkness to his sound ala Abdrazakov. Instead of telling singers what a voice type is supposed to sound like I think we should encourage them to find the sound and sing the rep that is most natural and comfortable to them.


this is the major source of disagreement I have with modern singing. imo, your voice type isn't where you're the most "comfortable". it's where your voice peaks in terms of resonance and intensity. the reason why it's more exciting when Birgit Nilsson sings a high C than Anna Moffo is that that's nearer the top of Birgit Nilsson's range, while Anna Moffo can keep going much longer.

put another way, your voice type is where you sing best....after your voice has been developed. until then, a good teacher will stretch the limits of the voice, past what is "comfortable" at any given time. slowly but surely, until the voice peaks. like a body builder, you go on stage once you have developed your instrument close to its potential.


----------



## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

Parley said:


> The fact is that 60 years ago most of the repertoire she is singing would not have been sung, especially in the way it is now sung. It is absolutely pointless comparing Di Donato with Simionato as they sung mostly different repertoire. *Where it did overlap their strengths are complementary*


which I would be 100% okay with....if we also had any singers like Simionato around at all.


----------



## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Bonetan said:


> I think saying voice types are supposed to sound a certain way leads to *artificiality in singing*, and I think *that's one of the biggest problems among modern day singers*. If my boy Plancon came along today he'd probably be told he doesn't sound like a bass and be encouraged to sing baritone or add fake darkness to his sound ala Abdrazakov. Instead of telling singers what a voice type is supposed to sound like I think we should encourage them to find the sound and sing the rep that is most natural and comfortable to them.


THIS - the cultivation of a technique which leads to an artificial, "operatic" sound, rather than assignment to the wrong "fach" - is the trouble with singing. I would guess that very, very few singers have ever made careers singing music written for a vocal range unnatural to them. Those who've been misdirected in that way either realize their mistake and change "fach" or ruin their voices and are not heard from. Melchior and Domingo began singing baritone roles but didn't continue that way for long; Regina Resnik and Marilyn Horne switched from soprano to mezzo. Other singers could really have chosen differently with success; Ponselle stated that had she not retired she would have continued as a mezzo, and certainly she had the necessary equipment. It wasn't a question of timbre, but of available range and physical comfort.

Voices are extremely individual, and the vocal student's main task is to understand the potentialities of the voice she has. If she doesn't, her voice will not function well in the long run, and if we hear a singer going on for decades with a reliable technique we can assume that she is singing repertoire that's right for her, whether or not her timbre conforms to our notion of her "fach." This is surely true in the case of the oft-mentioned Joyce DiDonato.

An interesting case of a true soprano who should have moved down to mezzo sooner than she did was Astrid Varnay, whose low notes were, someone said, "black marble," but whose high notes, by the time she sang at Bayreuth in the 1950s, could have stripped the veneer off the furniture. The only role of hers I really enjoy from that period is Ortrud, which doesn't go high too often and can tolerate a bit of harshness when it does.


----------



## Bonetan (Dec 22, 2016)

BalalaikaBoy said:


> this is the major source of disagreement I have with modern singing. imo, your voice type isn't where you're the most "comfortable". it's where your voice peaks in terms of resonance and intensity. the reason why it's more exciting when Birgit Nilsson sings a high C than Anna Moffo is that that's nearer the top of Birgit Nilsson's range, while Anna Moffo can keep going much longer.
> 
> put another way, your voice type is where you sing best....after your voice has been developed. until then, a good teacher will stretch the limits of the voice, past what is "comfortable" at any given time. slowly but surely, until the voice peaks. like a body builder, you go on stage once you have developed your instrument close to its potential.


I believe where one is most 'comfortable' and where one's voice 'peaks' are one and the same in a developed voice. If one is singing in a fach that isn't comfortable then they're working too hard to produce the tone and will suffer the consequences over time, regardless of how exciting the high notes sound. We're talking about developed voices here, so this isn't a matter of a soprano singing mezzo because her high notes aren't secure.

Dolora is a good example. Sure her high notes would have been exciting as a dramatic soprano, but her career would have been cut in half if not more, and she knew that herself from an early age.


----------



## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

Woodduck said:


> *An interesting case of a true soprano who should have moved down to mezzo sooner than she did was Astrid Varnay,* whose low notes were, someone said, "black marble," but whose high notes, by the time she sang at Bayreuth in the 1950s, could have stripped the veneer off the furniture. The only role of hers I really enjoy from that period is Ortrud, which doesn't go high too often and can tolerate a bit of harshness when it does.


thank you! someone gets it!


----------



## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

Overall I agree with Bonetan and Woodduck (and give a nod to Tsaras for his pointing out that there are singers that don't sound like Freni or Schwarzkopf, but neither do they sound like Simionato or Barbieri, yes, the lyric mezzo exists!)

Ultimately if a singer makes a superb career singing a particular range of roles without damaging their voice, can they be said to be singing in the wrong category? Vocal categories aren't all important, but that is different from saying that they have no importance. The fach system is used by German theatres and agents as a short hand in the work that they do. The system only exists as far as it is useful for that purpose and to extend it to other uses doesn't make sense.

I think vocal categories are useful for students who have built a voice and are still studying pre-career. Some teachers will prefer to categorise and use that to suggest repertoire for aspiring singers, others will prefer to use a more open ended approach. Once someone is singing and in career they should have the best idea of where their voice sits.

Is there any use in discussing the categories of singers in mid career? Possibly not, but whilst it's controversial to say that you think Ponselle was a mezzo, saying you think her voice was too dark to convince in the roles she sang and that you would have preferred to hear her as Azucena or Amneris wouldn't be as open to criticism. There are a few singers who I think were singing in the wrong category, but most of them sang what they sang very well and I wouldn't want to have missed out on hearing them in the rep their sang. The exceptions to that are Varnay and Eva Maria Westbroek who I only really like in mezzo rep. (There are probably others.)

N.


----------



## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

Woodduck said:


> *THIS - the cultivation of a technique which leads to an artificial, "operatic" sound, rather than assignment to the wrong "fach" - is the trouble with singing.* I would guess that very, very few singers have ever made careers singing music written for a vocal range unnatural to them. Those who've been misdirected in that way either realize their mistake and change "fach" or ruin their voices and are not heard from. Melchior and Domingo began singing baritone roles but didn't continue that way for long; Regina Resnik and Marilyn Horne switched from soprano to mezzo. Other singers could really have chosen differently with success; Ponselle stated that had she not retired she would have continued as a mezzo, and certainly she had the necessary equipment. It wasn't a question of timbre, but of available range and physical comfort.


I would argue they're singing the wrong voice type..._because_ they're focusing on voice type. generally for one of three reasons
1) pressure from a teacher
2) being in a rush to categorize themselves 
3) focusing on the rep they like, rathe than the rep they sound the best in

point #2 seems paradoxical given my position, but there is no contradiction therewith. proper categorizing is important...AFTER you have a full, open-throated voice with a developed range and piercing resonance (I'm of the opinion that all voice types should have a bit of squillo. it's produced more by the whole throat than just the nature of the cords). at that point, the voice has to choose, and the singer's preferences come only after it has done so.


----------



## Parley (May 29, 2021)

BalalaikaBoy said:


> I would argue they're singing the wrong voice type..._because_ they're focusing on voice type. generally for one of three reasons
> 1) pressure from a teacher
> 2) being in a rush to categorize themselves
> 3) focusing on the rep they like, rathe than the rep they sound the best in
> ...


Interesting your theorising does not fit DiDonato: DiDonato's career was relatively slow to take off. In her late 20s she revamped her vocal technique:
"Early on, it was clear my voice was suited to lighter repertoire - Handel, Mozart, Rossini - and gradually and carefully I've broadened that out, always returning to Handel. That feels like home base." 
Your problem is that you tend to think inside a certain box. The modern singers don't


----------



## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

BalalaikaBoy said:


> Janet Baker is closer to what I think of as a lyric mezzo. her voice was much darker and richer than FVS's (another "pleasant, but no real depth of power" kind of voices).


But "depth of power" is not exactly what is needed in the roles Von Stade excelled at. She is very much an example of a singer who chose wisely and sang roles that were suited not only to her voice, but her personaity.


----------



## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

BalalaikaBoy said:


> I would argue they're singing the wrong voice type..._because_ they're focusing on voice type. generally for one of three reasons
> 1) pressure from a teacher
> 2) being in a rush to categorize themselves
> 3) focusing on the rep they like, rathe than the rep they sound the best in
> ...


This raises a question for me. What rep do you think DiDonato would be better suited to? If we were going on tone alone then I would say she is either a mezzo or soprano and certainly not a contralto. I would leave the deciding whether she's a mezzo or soprano up to her and her teachers (I would say the same with Bartoli). When I say that a singer with an international career is singing in the wrong fach it is usually because I have heard them in a number of roles and the ones that they are best in are in an unusual fach for them (see Westbroek in soprano roles versus her Dido in Troyens). Which do you think are DiDonato's best roles? Did you find something in her Maria Stuarda and Semiramide that you liked, whilst not liking her as Romeo in Capuleti? I think Romeo may be her best role (although she totally owned Stuarda at Covent Garden). I can't hear any vocal problems or lack of fluency when she sings, that tells me that she is singing the right rep.

N.


----------



## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

Parley said:


> Interesting your theorising does not fit DiDonato: DiDonato's career was relatively slow to take off. In her late 20s she revamped her vocal technique:
> "Early on, it was clear my voice was suited to lighter repertoire - Handel, Mozart, Rossini - and gradually and carefully I've broadened that out, always returning to Handel. That feels like home base."
> Your problem is that you tend to think inside a certain box. The modern singers don't


the problem with modern singers is not whether they think inside/outside the box, it's that even the mezzos and baritones have underdeveloped chest voices. it's no wonder so many singers think they're only suited for "light" repertoire (we have zero singers who even identify as dramatic baritones today. _zero_). in the old days, everyone sang with developed chest voices. from bass all the way up to coloratura soprano. sure, singers had different timbres, different ranges and different vocal weights. voices are individual.

...but technique is not. in those days, you either knew how to sing powerfully, or you weren't considered an opera singer.

many of the examples in the clip below are coloratura sopranos. do you really want to tell me that it's "just a matter of opinion" that old coloratura sopranos are running circles around the chest voice capacity of modern mezzos (and some of these are dramatic mezzos, not light Rosina voices)? the bottom line is: there is a serious problem with the way modern singers are taught. we are afraid of big, deep voices, we don't know how to train them, and we have adopted a culture where the chest voice is considered something dangerous which one must avoid. until that is changed, we will scarcely have any big voices of any fach, be they soprano, tenor, mezzo or baritone.


----------



## Parley (May 29, 2021)

BalalaikaBoy said:


> the problem with modern singers is not whether they think inside/outside the box, it's that even the mezzos and baritones have underdeveloped chest voices. it's no wonder so many singers think they're only suited for "light" repertoire (we have zero singers who even identify as dramatic baritones today. _zero_). in the old days, everyone sang with developed chest voices. from bass all the way up to coloratura soprano. sure, singers had different timbres, different ranges and different vocal weights. voices are individual.
> 
> ...but technique is not. in those days, you either knew how to sing powerfully, or you weren't considered an opera singer.
> 
> many of the examples in the clip below are coloratura sopranos. do you really want to tell me that it's "just a matter of opinion" that old coloratura sopranos are running circles around the chest voice capacity of modern mezzos (and some of these are dramatic mezzos, not light Rosina voices)? the bottom line is: there is a serious problem with the way modern singers are taught. we are afraid of big, deep voices, we don't know how to train them, and we have adopted a culture where the chest voice is considered something dangerous which one must avoid. until that is changed, we will scarcely have any big voices of any fach, be they soprano, tenor, mezzo or baritone.


Sorry but it is pointless discussing this with you.


----------



## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

BalalaikaBoy said:


> *the problem with modern singers is* not whether they think inside/outside the box, it's *that even the mezzos and baritones have underdeveloped chest voices. it's no wonder so many singers think they're only suited for "light" repertoire* (we have zero singers who even identify as dramatic baritones today. _zero_). *in the old days, everyone sang with developed chest voices.* from bass all the way up to coloratura soprano. sure, singers had different timbres, different ranges and different vocal weights. voices are individual.
> 
> ...but technique is not. in those days, you either knew how to sing powerfully, or you weren't considered an opera singer.
> 
> many of the examples in the clip below are coloratura sopranos. do you really want to tell me that it's "just a matter of opinion" that *old coloratura sopranos are running circles around the chest voice capacity of modern mezzos *(and some of these are dramatic mezzos, not light Rosina voices)? the bottom line is: *there is a serious problem with the way modern singers are taught. we are afraid of big, deep voices, we don't know how to train them, and we have adopted a culture where the chest voice is considered something dangerous which one must avoid.* until that is changed, we will scarcely have any big voices of any fach, be they soprano, tenor, mezzo or baritone.


I don't disagree about the underdevelopment of the chest voice in modern singers. The evidence is clear from recordings.



> I'm sure I'm not the only one who has noticed *a dearth of deep voiced singers (esp female) in modern opera. a number of singers bill themselves as "mezzos", but lack a lower register altogether.* anyway, I thought it would be fun to take a look at modern mezzos and ask...*are they really a mezzo, or are they just a soprano with bad technique and/or who has been pushed down into the wrong rep** by inexperienced teachers.*


That's your original argument in this thread. It seems to be a different argument, suggesting that sopranos without chest voice development get misclassified as mezzos. That makes no sense to me, and may be part of the reason you're running into resistance here. Why would a singer with weak low notes be "pushed down" by teachers and end up singing in a lower range than the one right for her? Why would a teacher push a natural soprano down into mezzo rep and then fail to develop the lower part of her voice?

I'm suspecting that your argument - if it's one argument and not two or more - needs to develop a chest voice, lest its registers come apart at the seams.


----------



## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

Woodduck said:


> I don't disagree about the underdevelopment of the chest voice in modern singers. The evidence is clear from recordings.


good. progress is welcome in what has become a somewhat confusing discussion



> That's your original argument in this thread. It seems to be a different argument, suggesting that sopranos without chest voice development get misclassified as mezzos. That makes no sense to me, and may be part of the reason you're running into resistance here. Why would a singer with weak low notes be "pushed down" by teachers and end up singing in a lower range than the one right for her? Why would a teacher push a natural soprano down into mezzo rep and then fail to develop the lower part of her voice?
> 
> I'm suspecting that your argument - if it's one argument and not two or more - needs to develop a chest voice, lest its registers come apart at the seams.


I probably am making more than one argument. Initially I was just hoping to address a single issue, but unfortunately, it is a single issue with manifold causal factors, and each of them is kind of its own point. On one hand, I'm trying to present a clear argument, but on the other, this scope of this problem is much bigger than a single conversation or even a single topic. I'll respond to your questions later


----------



## Azol (Jan 25, 2015)

Maybe just state clearly what's your argument is so we can examine it carefully. So far it was confusing. If your idea is "most modern mezzos are in reality just unfortunate sopranos without ability to hit high notes" then we could talk about it. DiDonato is surely not one of them.

"How would you call a soprano without high C?"
"Comprimario"


----------



## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

I'm going to say it again. Isn't the problem the lack of contraltos/dramatic mezzos? One reason for this could very well be that training isn't developing the chest voice, but ignoring it. Then again there's a lack of dramatic voices across the board. Where are the sopranos and tenors who are at home in most Verdi?

I agree that the chest voice mechanism is sorely neglected in modern singing techniques and that is having an effect on the lack of good singers in certain rep, but that doesn't mean that DiDonato should sing Adina.

N.


----------



## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

The Conte said:


> I'm going to say it again. Isn't the problem the lack of contraltos/dramatic mezzos? One reason for this could very well be that training isn't developing the chest voice, but ignoring it. Then again there's a lack of dramatic voices across the board. Where are the sopranos and tenors who are at home in most Verdi?
> 
> I agree that the chest voice mechanism is sorely neglected in modern singing techniques and that is having an effect on the lack of good singers in certain rep, but that doesn't mean that DiDonato should sing Adina.
> 
> N.


Most women have mezzo voices, but few have the big ones. Maybe they don't think it ladylike. In the US we used to have good church music programs that started people out. Our Baptist church sang classical music in parts back in the 50' till the 70's. That is not found today except in a few big city Episcopal churches. Early musical education can be a powerful start to the right voices.


----------



## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

Seattleoperafan said:


> *Most women have mezzo voices*, but few have the big ones. Maybe they don't think it ladylike. In the US we used to have good church music programs that started people out. Our Baptist church sang classical music in parts back in the 50' till the 70's. That is not found today except in a few big city Episcopal churches. Early musical education can be a powerful start to the right voices.


another disagreement. I think most people are tenors and sopranos (particularly because "soprano" is anything from Natalie Dessay to Rosa Ponselle). baritone and mezzo are deep voices, and bass and contralto are REALLY deep

this is kinda hard to objectively prove though


----------



## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

in case anyone was wondering why I'm not concerned with splitting hairs on Zajick, this is a good example. the voice sounds natural. it has core, proper chest voice, _intensity_. I'm not complaining because this is what Amneris, and opera in general, are supposed to sound like.


----------



## Parley (May 29, 2021)

BalalaikaBoy said:


> another disagreement. I think most people are tenors and sopranos (particularly because "soprano" is anything from Natalie Dessay to Rosa Ponselle). baritone and mezzo are deep voices, and bass and contralto are REALLY deep
> 
> this is kinda hard to objectively prove though


Kinda hard to prove because it hapoens to be untrue!


----------



## damianjb1 (Jan 1, 2016)

Dolora Zajik's name has come up quite a bit in this discussion. You might find this of interest.


----------



## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

BalalaikaBoy said:


> another disagreement. I think most people are tenors and sopranos (particularly because "soprano" is anything from Natalie Dessay to Rosa Ponselle). baritone and mezzo are deep voices, and bass and contralto are REALLY deep
> 
> this is kinda hard to objectively prove though


It's certainly true that many singers find, with training, high notes they couldn't reach without it. Whether this supports your contention is unproven. In saying that most men are tenors you seem to be saying that with training they would be comfortable with sustained singing in the tessitura inhabited by, say, Pavarotti. That seems unlikely.


----------



## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

Woodduck said:


> It's certainly true that many singers find, with training, high notes they couldn't reach without it. Whether this supports your contention is unproven. In saying that most men are tenors you seem to be saying that with training they would be comfortable with sustained singing in the tessitura inhabited by, say, Pavarotti. That seems unlikely.


Pavarotti had an unusually high tessitura even for a tenor. again, there is nothing I can do to really prove this, but my understanding is something like

very high: coloratura soprano/leggiero tenor
high: lyric soprano/tenor 
medium-high: spinto soprano/tenor
medium-low: dramatic soprano/tenor
low: mezzo/baritone
really low: contralto/bass


----------



## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

BalalaikaBoy said:


> Pavarotti had an unusually high tessitura even for a tenor. again, there is nothing I can do to really prove this, but my understanding is something like
> 
> very high: coloratura soprano/leggiero tenor
> high: lyric soprano/tenor
> ...


Those are words - conventions, not realities. You're free to apply any word to anything you want to, but that ends by making all statements meaningless. Reality, here, is repertoire; if you successfully sing the tenor repertoire, you're a tenor. If not, not. What repertoire would most men sing if their voices were trained? Would they be more comfortable as Don Ottavio or Don Giovanni? Tannhauser or Wolfram? Otello or Iago? Mime or Alberich?

As far as words go, however, I find it borders on bizarre to describe the appropriate voice for Brunnhilde and Elektra as "medium-low." This is "fachism" gone berserk.


----------



## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

Woodduck said:


> *Those are words - conventions, not realities. You're free to apply any word to anything you want to, but that ends by making all statements meaningless*. Reality, here, is repertoire; if you successfully sing the tenor repertoire, you're a tenor. If not, not. What repertoire would most men sing if their voices were trained? Would they be more comfortable as Don Ottavio or Don Giovanni? Tannhauser or Wolfram? Otello or Iago? Mime or Alberich?


you can use whatever conventions you like. they were more for the sake of illustration.



> As far as words go, however, I find it borders on bizarre to describe the appropriate voice for Brunnhilde and Elektra as "medium-low." This is "fachism" gone berserk.


Wagner even called the type of voice suitable for Brunnhilde a "deep soprano", so I don't think it's too much of a stretch.

either way, I'm less interested in driving home the specifics past "there are more tenors and sopranos than most people realize".


----------



## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

BalalaikaBoy said:


> Wagner even called the type of voice suitable for Brunnhilde a "deep soprano", so I don't think it's too much of a stretch.


Better check your sources. I believe that Wagner called Brunnhilde "hoher Sopran" and Fricka and Waltraute (and possibly Ortrud) "tiefer Sopran." He called Kundry only "Sopran," though many of us feel she is most effectively sung by a mezzo. In view of his calling Waltraute any sort of "Sopran" at all, we need to acknowledge that these too are only words which change their meaning over time. Our "fachs," as we (or some of us) conceive them, did not exist in 1870. Those lucky folk!

Your separation of soprano fachs by vocal range has some merit but can really fall apart in practice. Traubel and Nilsson were both great dramatic sopranos, and of the two it's Nilsson who best commands the tessitura of the Brunnhildes of act 3 of _Siegfried_ and act 2 of _Gotterdammerung_, not to mention Salome and Elektra - Nilsson, who sang the Queen of the Night's arias for fun. There's nothing especially "tief" about that music. How about just acknowledging that a dramatic soprano has to be able to make a powerful effect both low and high? It's that "powerful effect," not her absolute vocal range, that makes her "dramatic."


----------



## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

Woodduck said:


> Better check your sources. I believe that Wagner called Brunnhilde "hoher Sopran" and Fricka and Waltraute (and possibly Ortrud) "tiefer Sopran." He called Kundry only "Sopran," though many of us feel she is most effectively sung by a mezzo. In view of his calling Waltraute any sort of "Sopran" at all, we need to acknowledge that these too are only words which change their meaning over time. Our "fachs," as we (or some of us) conceive them, did not exist in 1870. Those lucky folk!
> 
> *Your separation of soprano fachs by vocal range has some merit but can really fall apart in practice*. Traubel and Nilsson were both great dramatic sopranos, and of the two it's Nilsson who best commands the tessitura of the Brunnhildes of act 3 of _Siegfried_ and act 2 of _Gotterdammerung_, not to mention Salome and Elektra - Nilsson, who sang the Queen of the Night's arias for fun. There's nothing especially "tief" about that music. How about just acknowledging that a dramatic soprano has to be able to make a powerful effect both low and high? It's that "powerful effect," not her absolute vocal range, that makes her "dramatic."


one can use and accept the basic idea without being overly rigid, accounting for exceptions or expecting exactly the same properties of everyone from the same voice type


----------



## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

I've always understood that most women are sopranos and most men baritones, but perhaps that's because women find it more difficult to access the chest voice and gain the lower tones and for men the head voice needs to be learned to access the high notes.

N.


----------



## Parsifal98 (Apr 29, 2020)

I remember reading once that Nilsson, when she first heard Elina Garanca sing (must have been a masterclass or something), said that she would become a great dramatic soprano. Just look where she is now. Maybe Nilsson was wrong, or maybe Garanca suffers from the "lazy soprano" syndrome. I believe the latter is more probable. As for DiDonato, another big name mentioned in this thread, she is another clear example of this most dangerous syndrome. I always found this video quite revealing (and it is fitting for this thread):


----------



## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

BalalaikaBoy said:


> one can use and accept the basic idea without being overly rigid, accounting for exceptions or expecting exactly the same properties of everyone from the same voice type


Which basic idea? The idea that a dramatic soprano is a medium-low female voice? How do we "use" an idea like that? How did Lilli Lehmann use it? Johanna Gadski? Florence Austral? Frida Leider? Marjorie Lawrence? Germaine Lubin? Eva Turner? Gertrud Grob-Prandl? Gina Cigna? Maria Callas, when she was singing Brunnhilde, Isolde and Turandot?

Words, words, words.


----------



## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

BalalaikaBoy said:


> another disagreement. I think most people are tenors and sopranos (particularly because "soprano" is anything from Natalie Dessay to Rosa Ponselle). baritone and mezzo are deep voices, and bass and contralto are REALLY deep
> 
> this is kinda hard to objectively prove though


You might be correct. That is the opinion of my sister who taught voice for over 40 years. According to her, most lack the top notes needed to sing opera. I think most pop music women are mezzos, though of a lite type. You rarely hear one singing higher than E5, and that is rare. Broadway sopranos are a different type.


----------



## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

Parsifal98 said:


> I remember reading once that Nilsson, when she first heard Elina Garanca sing (must have been a masterclass or something), said that she would become a great dramatic soprano. Just look where she is now. Maybe Nilsson was wrong, or maybe Garanca suffers from the "lazy soprano" syndrome. I believe the latter is more probable. As for DiDonato, another big name mentioned in this thread, she is another clear example of this most dangerous syndrome. I always found this video quite revealing (and it is fitting for this thread):


What a load of word (and music) salad in that lesson! DiDonato is trying to get a particular sound, whereas she should be helping the singer discover _their_ sound. It's easy, say the words, 'sal-ce' and again 'sal-ce'. Now sing the vowels alone with the same accent/position/pronunciation as when spoken, 'a-e', 'a-e'. Now sing, 'SAL-CE' and hey presto, you don't sound like Leontyne and you certainly don't sound like Joyce, you sound like YOU! (It's also important to know how to pronounce the Italian correctly, I would think of it as Saal-chair, but that's what works for me and others may find other ways of getting it right.)

This is a video where I agree pretty much with This is Opera.

N.


----------

