# Opera, what medium do you start in?



## mythil (Jun 1, 2012)

Hello all, I'm pretty new here but I found this forum because I wanted to ask a question.

I want to expand my classical collection with some opera though I'm not sure in which medium to collect it. If it comes on audio CD then it wont come with subtitles so is DVD better or is it better to get the CD and not understand the words but try and feel the emotion? 

Thank you for your time!


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## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

Don't bother. Opera never gets up to medium.


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## Jeremy Marchant (Mar 11, 2010)

No, it is not a good idea to get CDs of operas if you can't understand (or even hear) the words. In general, there is too much subtlety in the dialogue and it's impossible to pick that up from the music alone.

DVDs, on the hand, are hampered by the visual production which is almost invariably crap. Even good productions would fix a particular view of the opera in your mind which you'll come to find restricting.

However, most CD releases in English-speaking territories have booklets containing the text in both the original and with English, French and German translations as necessary. Steer clear of cheap reissues (though some of these will also have complete texts). You're also likely to find some texts (called libretti) on the internet.

If you'd like to let us know particular operas, or types of operas, you're interested in, I am sure members of the forum will be only to pleased to let you have their opinions. But I do stress, you need to have the original text and a good translation.


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

Jeremy Marchant said:


> DVDs, on the hand, are hampered by the visual production which is almost invariably crap. Even good productions would fix a particular view of the opera in your mind which you'll come to find restricting.


I don't agree with the "almost invariably crap" statement. If that were the case I suspect that all the opera theatres would be empty.

I am a keen opera DVD collector and so far have seen 398 productions (I have a catalogue). I rate them with a star system them after watching. So far I have 75 five star - utterly brilliant and 171 four star - excellent productions - vs 5 one star (utter crap) and 25 two star (crap to indifferent).

For me it works best to get a DVD to get the whole story/words/emotional background, and then follow up with a CD. I rarely bother with the libretto.


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

I would start by going to see a performance of an opera by Benjamin Britten. Albert herring is a good one to start off with if you really want to see an opera. After that it would depend on if you prefer listening to the music or watching the action to choose what medium you would like to use next. 

I prefer watching operas rather than just listening to the music, but I usually listen to operas more than watch DVDs and go to concerts.


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## Yashin (Jul 22, 2011)

I remember the times when i would sit with a new cd purchase and listen to the music whilst reading the translation in the thick booklet. Alas, the decline in the cd market (new cd's anyway) and the fact that i live in a country with practically no opera (but some decent orchestra performances) means now it is pretty much 100% DVD.

I agree with an earlier posting about crap DVDs in the sense that some can give you a 'wrong turn' and either confuse you or put you off. I recall the DVD of Madame butterfly where they are dressed like insects! Terrible production, singing and conducting!

But DVD is my favourite medium - i actually enjoy seeing 'eurotrash' productions because they allow a new angle to be seen. Not being a natural linguist -this is also very good.

But, there is nothing like a comfy chair, some nice headphones, some low evening light sat listening to some of the great recordings!


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## Glissando (Nov 25, 2011)

DVDs that are well-made give, in my opinion, the closest thing to an ideal presentation of opera if going to operas is not geographically or financially feasible. I am lucky to live in a city where my local public libraries have a large collection of opera DVDs, so I've been testing them all out for free. This progresses pretty slowly, because I often find I need to re-watch an opera two to three times to really get a full appreciation of the music and the story. It's only after that when I feel I can truly appreciate the composer's intentions. With DVDs I especially like and know I'll keep watching again, I'll purchase them, although opera DVDs can be really pricey (sometimes thirty to forty US dollars). Also, beware of poor-quality DVDs. Some of them have audio problems like distortion or imbalances; some don't even have legible subtitles. Still, in my experience, unwatchable opera DVDs are rare. In general, look for Deutsche Grammophon DVDs and be wary of Kultur's DVDs, although there are exceptions.

You will probably determine whether you like the whole idea of filmed operas with lip synching. While usually the music is well-recorded, the whole experience feels fake somehow, so now I always opt to see good live DVD productions if possible. But that's all up to personal taste.

Opera on CD can be particularly good if, like me, you like to listen to music at a fairly high volume. For example, hearing the Solti production of Wagner's 'Ring' on CD allows you to immerse yourself in the music to an extent that DVDs don't seem to allow. Most DVDs don't seem to be mastered at a high volume, so I often find myself turning the headphones up as high as they can go. And of course, many CDs will feature studio recordings (like Solti's 'Ring'), and no live recording (either on CD, or even more especially on DVD) can match a studio recording. However, opera on CD just lacks the visual and dramatic (i.e., acting) elements, so it is not the full experience.

Also, you ask about hearing opera on CD without being able to understand the words. In many cases, this may not have to happen. Many CDs will include the full libretto in multiple translations so that you can follow along as you listen. I would not be very interested in sitting through an entire opera if I didn't have the lyrics handy somehow. I mean, if I had to I probably would, because the music would be worth it, but with DVDs and CDs with booklets available everywhere now, you needn't settle for that these days.


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## mythil (Jun 1, 2012)

Hilltroll72 said:


> Don't bother. Opera never gets up to medium.


I do hope that was a joke as it got a giggle from me


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## mythil (Jun 1, 2012)

Well I can't really quote all of you as there are different opinions that are all helpful.

I only really used to listen to music which I could understand even if it was in a Language I didn't speak, I can pick up on the themes of Japanese music for instance. I also have a vast collection of heavy metal (from celtic and folk metal to nightwish, speed metal and so on) along with a collection of British folk music and so on. 

I didn't really know anything about opera, well maybe a little more than a layman but not enough to actually appreciate it.

One comment I had from my other half was that I could get the DVD or other visual recording and if I like the music in general I could track down the CD and listen to that when I don't want to watch the whole thing. I don't tend to go to many performances as there aren't many on where I live.

As far as operas I like, I'm usually against what the typical "beginners" opera text say you should start with as I like and listened to the Ring Cycle first, though anything reminding me of "fantasy" and fairy tales goes down well such as Peter and the Wolf.


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

mythil said:


> As far as operas I like, I'm usually against what the typical "beginners" opera text say you should start with as I like and listened to the Ring Cycle first, though a*nything reminding me of "fantasy" and fairy tales* goes down well such as Peter and the Wolf.


Some ideas:

Humperdink - Hansel und Gretel -fairy tale
Rossini - La Cenerentola (Cinderella)
Dvořák - Rusalka - fairy tale
Mozart - The Magic Flute - magic Allegory
Strauss - Die Frau ohne Schatten - magic allegory
Britten - The Turn of the Screw - ghost story
Wagner - The Flying Dutchman - legend
Prokofiev - the Love for Three Oranges - fantasy tale
Weber - Der Freischütz - magic tale
Birtwistle - The Minotaur - myth
Gluck's Orfeo ed Euridice, Monteverdi L'Orfeo - greek myth
Janáček - The Cunning Little Vixen - animal story


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## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

I actually prefer listening to opera on CD rather than watching on DVD as it means I have to envisage the action in my mind's eye which I quite enjoy doing but I can appreciate that this is probably a minority view. However, unless you understand the language that is being sung or you know the work well an opera CD without a libretto or at the very least a synopsis is as much use as a chocolate fireguard unless you can obtain the necessary info from another source.


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## Moira (Apr 1, 2012)

I think if you're starting out it is best to go to a live opera performance if you can. These days they have sur-titles giving the English translation of the words being sung and the programme always has a synopsis of the story line. 

Next best is a DVD with the action, and often the translation of the words as sub-titles. This is the way I have to go as there are very few live operas produced within easy travelling distance of where I live, although there are some from time to time.

CDs of whole operas tend to be best when one is already familiar with the opera. It is also more fun when there are a few people listening and everyone in the group has familiarised themselves with the opera - together if necessary, and then to play some of the versions of the better known arias comparatively.


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## mythil (Jun 1, 2012)

Moira said:


> I think if you're starting out it is best to go to a live opera performance if you can. These days they have sur-titles giving the English translation of the words being sung and the programme always has a synopsis of the story line.
> 
> Next best is a DVD with the action, and often the translation of the words as sub-titles. This is the way I have to go as there are very few live operas produced within easy travelling distance of where I live, although there are some from time to time.
> 
> CDs of whole operas tend to be best when one is already familiar with the opera. It is also more fun when there are a few people listening and everyone in the group has familiarised themselves with the opera - together if necessary, and then to play some of the versions of the better known arias comparatively.


I would go to a performance if I could though opera and classical seems to be very limited down here and the performances that are on are not well advertised so you usually have to be "in the know" to know what's on. I did search the Portsmouth Theater Royal and Kings Theater and Guildhall but there was only one on that wasn't even advertised on their website.

However, I live about.. under two hours, maybe closer to an hour train ride from London so I guess I could treat myself by going up to London once or twice a year and taking a look.


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## Moira (Apr 1, 2012)

mythil said:


> I would go to a performance if I could though opera and classical seems to be very limited down here and the performances that are on are not well advertised so you usually have to be "in the know" to know what's on. I did search the Portsmouth Theater Royal and Kings Theater and Guildhall but there was only one on that wasn't even advertised on their website.
> 
> However, I live about.. under two hours, maybe closer to an hour train ride from London so I guess I could treat myself by going up to London once or twice a year and taking a look.


Just e-mail or phone the theatre and ask to be put on their mailing list. They often offer specials to people on their mailing lists too. Also check out their Facebook pages and subscribe there.


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## sospiro (Apr 3, 2010)

mythil said:


> Hello all, I'm pretty new here but I found this forum because I wanted to ask a question.
> 
> I want to expand my classical collection with some opera though I'm not sure in which medium to collect it. If it comes on audio CD then it wont come with subtitles so is DVD better or is it better to get the CD and not understand the words but try and feel the emotion?
> 
> Thank you for your time!


Welcome to the forum mythil.

From the responses you've received, it must be obvious that none of us agree which is the best!

My opera journey is convoluted & wouldn't recommend it to anyone. But now when I want to learn something new I always start with a CD box set & Wikipedia (seriously!) to learn a bit of history, synopsis & roles. Then I listen & read the libretto at the same time. I follow the original language as best I can & keep glancing at the translation.

Only after I know the opera fairly well do I get a DVD if there's one available. If it's an opera I love I then try & see it live. I find it tremendously rewarding to see a live opera knowing the story, without having to look at the surtitles & knowing the music well enough to know in my head what's coming next.

But please remember everyone's different & there's no right or wrong way. As long as you get enjoyment & satisfaction, that's all that matters. Good luck with your opera journey.


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

mamascarlatti said:


> Some ideas:
> 
> Humperdink - Hansel und Gretel -fairy tale
> Rossini - La Cenerentola (Cinderella)
> ...


You forgot "The Nose" by Shostakovich.


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## notreally (Oct 25, 2011)

elgars ghost said:


> I actually prefer listening to opera on CD rather than watching on DVD as it means I have to envisage the action in my mind's eye which I quite enjoy doing but I can appreciate that this is probably a minority view.


Me too. I mean, I love watching DVDs, but for me listening to a CD is the ultimate experience.


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## MAuer (Feb 6, 2011)

Another thought: if you just want to sample opera without making the commitment of a purchase, check YouTube. There are everything from videos of individual arias or scenes to complete performances.


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## superhorn (Mar 23, 2010)

I got into opera (and classical music in general) way back in the late 60s when I was a teenager and discovered that my local library on Long Island had an extensive collection of classical LPs,later CDs when they came out . 
It had LPs of all the best known operas and many obscure ones , and they came with booklets with the libretto and English translation,most of them that is. So I became familiar with the operas of Mozart,Handel,Gluck, Rossini, Bellini,Donizetti,Puccini, Wagner, Richard Strauss, Berg, Mussorgsky,Janacek,
Tchaikovsky, Britten etc Not only that, I gained familiarity with Italian, French, German, and evenRussian and
Czech and no longer even need the libretto unless I'm hearing an opera for the first time .
If a CD of a complete opera does not come with the libretto and translation, you can get these online at the Naxos website and elsewhere and download them.
I have seen a fair number of opera DVDs , though nowhere near as many as on CD or LP , and love them .
PBS also telecasts performances from the Met a number of times per year , and these were originally part of the HD broadcasts to movie theaters around the country, which you should also try . All these have subtitles .
I like seeing DVDs or PBS telecasts because unlike the opera house, you can see the singers interacting up close and see the expressions on their faces . 
When I've gone to the Met, the house is so big that this is impossible unless you're in the front rows .
I still love going live, though .


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## mythil (Jun 1, 2012)

superhorn said:


> I got into opera (and classical music in general) way back in the late 60s when I was a teenager and discovered that my local library on Long Island had an extensive collection of classical LPs,later CDs when they came out .
> It had LPs of all the best known operas and many obscure ones , and they came with booklets with the libretto and English translation,most of them that is. So I became familiar with the operas of Mozart,Handel,Gluck, Rossini, Bellini,Donizetti,Puccini, Wagner, Richard Strauss, Berg, Mussorgsky,Janacek,
> Tchaikovsky, Britten etc Not only that, I gained familiarity with Italian, French, German, and evenRussian and
> Czech and no longer even need the libretto unless I'm hearing an opera for the first time .
> ...


I would really love some LP's/records in general but they are very hard to get now, not to mention expensive.


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## mythil (Jun 1, 2012)

Though.. If I were starting a collection, a really unique one, vinyl would be a good thing.


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> You forgot "The Nose" by Shostakovich.


Well, I haven't heard it yet, so I didn't actually forget it!

But also, I said some ideas.

There are plenty of others, especially in the Russian repertoire. Rimsky-Korsakov is a treasure trove of traditional tales and stories (Snow maiden, Sadko, The golden cockerel, The legend of the invisible city of Kitezh and the Maiden Fevroniya etc).


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

^^^^You haven't heard "The Nose?!" Really wonderful opera, though it is quite absurd :lol:. I've read a translation of the original story by Nikolai Gogol too.


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## MAuer (Feb 6, 2011)

Ah, for the good old days of LP box sets with complete librettos, including English translations. I checked the Naxos web site for the libretto of Mayr's _L'Amor Coniugale _and it was there, all right -- in Italian only. Unfortunately, I speak English and German.


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## Jeremy Marchant (Mar 11, 2010)

mamascarlatti said:


> I don't agree with the "almost invariably crap" statement. If that were the case I suspect that all the opera theatres would be empty.


No, it just means that each person has different criteria by which they assess the quality and value of opera productions. For me, most productions do not attain even a basic level of competence in staging the work though, often, great attention is paid to promulgating a usually specious and entirely irrelevant agenda peddled by the producer. If that doesn't ring true for other people - or it does but they don't care - that's fine. But it is a dangerous line of argument to suggest that what is popular is good. Just as much as it is to suggest that what one like is, ipso facto, good.


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## mythil (Jun 1, 2012)

MAuer said:


> Ah, for the good old days of LP box sets with complete librettos, including English translations. I checked the Naxos web site for the libretto of Mayr's _L'Amor Coniugale _and it was there, all right -- in Italian only. Unfortunately, I speak English and German.


Well with the internet these days I suppose you could just get the librettos online?


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## sospiro (Apr 3, 2010)

mythil said:


> Well with the internet these days I suppose you could just get the librettos online?


Yes but you don't often get a line by line translation.

EMI do a good range. You just have to register & you don't get inundated with emails from them, about one every month or so.


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## mythil (Jun 1, 2012)

Well it seems that there are still decent amounts of Opera on vinyl through ebay, amazon though not so much through average music companies, go figure. 

With vinyl it would be pretty hard to judge the quality of the performance before hand, though there would generally be (if I'm right) names, musical groups and so on that are generally considered good, so probably best look for their versions? Without knowing the quality it could be quite random what you get but I suppose it would be nice just to have the vinyl.


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## sospiro (Apr 3, 2010)

mythil said:


> Well it seems that there are still decent amounts of Opera on vinyl through ebay, amazon though not so much through average music companies, go figure.
> 
> With vinyl it would be pretty hard to judge the quality of the performance before hand, though there would generally be (if I'm right) names, musical groups and so on that are generally considered good, so probably best look for their versions? Without knowing the quality it could be quite random what you get but I suppose it would be nice just to have the vinyl.


If you go to the sub-forum *Opera on DVD, Blu-ray & CD*, you will find our recommended versions. These were done by vote & as the description implies, 'recommended' not 'best' because opera is often subjective.


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

Jeremy Marchant said:


> No, it just means that each person has different criteria by which they assess the quality and value of opera productions. For me, most productions do not attain even a basic level of competence in staging the work though, often, great attention is paid to promulgating a usually specious and entirely irrelevant agenda peddled by the producer. If that doesn't ring true for other people - or it does but they don't care - that's fine. But it is a dangerous line of argument to suggest that what is popular is good. Just as much as it is to suggest that what one like is, ipso facto, good.


I'd be interested in the size of the sample you are using, and some examples.


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## Tero (Jun 2, 2012)

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> ^^^^You haven't heard "The Nose?!" Really wonderful opera, though it is quite absurd :lol:. I've read a translation of the original story by Nikolai Gogol too.


Dostoyevsky tried to repeat the story with The Double, but it did not work nearly as well.


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## crmoorhead (Apr 6, 2011)

mythil said:


> I would really love some LP's/records in general but they are very hard to get now, not to mention expensive.


Actually, they are very easily obtainable on ebay at excellent prices unless you are being picky. I bought 150 vinyls for £35 when I got my first record player last summer. There were some lemons there, but most of it was good stuff by reputable labels and well-known artists. I occasionally buy a boxed set of an opera, the big benefit being the libretto booklet. I recently bought an excellent selection of 'complete symphonies' boxed sets from one seller, around 50 lps for £50 (including courier charge). Per hour of music, LPs are cheaper than CDs in the majority of cases unless you are looking for something specific. You can also get some extreme bargains from 'pick up only' sellers. Unfortunately, Aberdeen is miles from anywhere significant, so I don't benefit from those.

Now I feel like browsing ebay in search of some more LPs!


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## crmoorhead (Apr 6, 2011)

> Some ideas:
> 
> Humperdink - Hansel und Gretel -fairy tale
> Rossini - La Cenerentola (Cinderella)
> ...


Also, Der Vampyr by Marschner, which predates Bram Stoker's Dracula by 70 years and the Bela Lugosi movie based on that book by 100 years.


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## Manok (Aug 29, 2011)

I don't own many operas, but the ones I do I do on cd, I'd rather listen anyway. I honestly don't care much for the story half the time when I finally do find it out, I rarely have the time to sit down and watch an opera, but if I stick an opera on my mp3 player I can listen and do what needs to be done and still be able to enjoy what I want to listen to.


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