# Johann Sebastian Bach



## World Violist

You all knew it would happen eventually: the most superfluous thread ever made for this board. The greatest contrapuntal genius of all time. I've heard it said that, while among the _public_ there are Mahler cults, Sibelius cults, and Brahms cults, there is among the _composers_ a Bach cult. Not to say there isn't a Bach cult among the public, it's just that the great composers all worshiped the guy. It is genuinely worthless to try singling out some of his greatest pieces; if you pick out about any five of the more than one thousand published works, I will guarantee that at least three, if not all, will be masterpieces.

Although *cough, cough* the B minor Mass _is_ considered to be the greatest and most perfect composition ever written in history, not to mention the Art of Fugue, Goldberg Variations, several hundred choral works, preludes, solo violin sonatas, solo cello suites, violin concerti, transcriptions of other peoples' work, harpsichord concerti, Well-Tempered Clavier....


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## opus67

Johann who?


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## Quodlibet

Before idolizing the Great Man, one should read Theodor W. Adorno's equally famous essay, "Bach Defended Against His Devotees."


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## Gustav

opus67 said:


> Johann who?


Sebastian Bach, either the font on your computer is broken or you just can't read.


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## opus67

Gustav said:


> Sebastian Bach, either the font on your computer is broken or you just can't read.


You either need the text to be supplemented with emoticons, pictures, etc. to put something in context, or you just don't have a sense of humour!

And in case you didn't get that: I'm angry. :angry:


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## Guest

Now,now Girls don't get bitchy, the big guy may be watching you


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## BuddhaBandit

Soooo... ignoring the catfight...

Bach's music has a power that stretches beyond his time. The Baroque is my least favorite era, but I will always listen to Bach's wonderful keyboard, orchestral, choral, etc. works above those of many Romantic and modern composers.

Incidentally, one of my favorite books is Gödel, Escher, Bach by Douglas Hofstader. It's a nonfiction work which draws connections between philosophic logic, phenomenology, and the ethics of artificial intelligence within a musical-visual artistic-mathematical context. A truly fantastic work, which, for classical music lovers, offers some great new insights into Bach's fugues. BTW, the other two title figures are the mathematician Kurt Gödel (of Gödel's Incompleteness Theorem) and the great surreal artist M.C. Escher (known for his optical illusions).


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## Krummhorn

opus67 said:


> Johann who?


LOL, opus67 ...



Gustav said:


> Sebastian Bach, either the font on your computer is broken or you just can't read.


He read it ... 99% of the musical world, and especially Opus67, knows exactly who and what JS Bach is ... I took the comment to be quite humorous, and so did most everyone else ...    ... JS Bach enjoyed a good laugh, too.



Andante said:


> Now,now Girls don't get bitchy, the big guy may be watching you


Which 'big guy'? Johann?


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## Gustav

opus67 said:


> You either need the text to be supplemented with emoticons, pictures, etc. to put something in context, or you just don't have a sense of humour!
> 
> And in case you didn't get that: I'm angry. :angry:


Sorry, that was supposed to be funny? sorry, i didn't know, it just didn't seem like a joke....


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## Gustav

Andante said:


> Now,now Girls don't get bitchy, the big guy may be watching you


that's creepy, is he one of those people who frequently appears on "To Catch a Predator"? and you know him, creepy.


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## Chi_townPhilly

Krummhorn said:


> Which 'big guy'? Johann?


If you'll forgive the digression, this reminds me of an anecdote concerning Toscanini and Lauritz Melchior. It was written that Melchior was one of those rare people who had a chance of stilling a "Toscanini tantrum." At Bayreuth, Toscanini was "on the boil" and Melchior looked at him, held his forefinger to his lips, and pointed his other forefinger skyward. The implication was not only "God is watching," but (because it was Richard's house) "Wagner is watching"... and _die alte sturm_ subsided.

O.K.: back to Bach- popularizer commentator Phil Goulding placed Bach at the very top of his list, with a comment something like (I'm working from memory here): 'regardless of the composition, he was constitutionally incapable of indifferent workmanship.' That's a singular achievement, if you think about it. Beethoven had his "Battle Symphony." My beloved Wagner had his "Centennial March." In the last century, a symphonic titan like Shostakovich had... well... he had a lot of stuff that did his reputation no favors. For high art in all of the forms which he essayed, one could say that Bach stands alone.

Where's *Azathoth* when you need her?


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## anon2k2

Not to mention moving us towards equal-temprament tuning so that Wagner and the other late romantics and 20th century composers could modulate early and often. Or stop modulating because there isn't a tonal center. Whichever.


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## Herzeleide

Totally agreed. Bach is god.


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## Quartet

My favorite thing about Bach is almost no one cared for him when he was around. Aside from the Brandenburg Concertos (or "Concerti") almost all of this other work was for his church position or for personal enjoyment. The man was one of the finest architects of music that has ever existed and his importance can never be understated.


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## World Violist

I think it's rather odd that of the 14 posts on this thread, about half or more were about a "catfight" or utterly sarcastic remarks... oh well.

I still like his Chaconne above many other pieces, although his fugues are beyond genius.


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## kiwipolish

I recently bought the complete works of Bach on Brilliantclassics and I have already listened to two thirds of the 155 CDs. By "listened", I mean that I sat, disconnected all phones, did not read anything, and listened.

Bach's music is breathtakingly beautiful and eternal. At least for me.

I do understand that others may question that, or be annoyed by Bach's undisputed status. I am myself annoyed with Mozart's undeserved status. I have a 30 y.o. French music encyclopedia, and the entry for Mozart starts with these words: [translation] "The greatest musician of all times." That, I really find annoying.


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## SPR

kiwipolish said:


> I recently bought the complete works of Bach on Brilliantclassics and I have already listened to two thirds of the 155 CDs. By "listened", I mean that I sat, disconnected all phones, did not read anything, and listened.
> 
> Bach's music is breathtakingly beautiful and eternal. At least for me.
> 
> I do understand that others may question that, or be annoyed by Bach's undisputed status. I am myself annoyed with Mozart's undeserved status. I have a 30 y.o. French music encyclopedia, and the entry for Mozart starts with these words: [translation] "The greatest musician of all times." That, I really find annoying.


Laugh.

I find that post entertaining for a bunch of reasons.

I am debating between the Bach and Haydn brilliant sets since I have the Mozart one already. I have a fair amount of bach, but I think I want it all.

I have a hard time picking between Bach and Mozart, who, in my tiny little brain - represent at the very least, a substantial protrusion of unique genius into the world - not to mention original thought which is more rare than people believe. Apples and oranges however. It seems to me they are as far apart as one could possibly imagine - and yet both produce what I see as beauty incarnate. quite a feat.

Mozarts 'undeserved status'? (grin)... dont get me started.  The man is unmatched. 

A commoners pedestrian comment perhaps - but I think the Brandenburgs among the top handful of musical constructions I have ever heard. Bach was operating on an *entirely* different plane than everyone.


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## SPR

kiwipolish said:


> ...I have a 30 y.o. French music encyclopedia, and the entry for Mozart starts with these words: [translation] "The greatest musician of all times." That, I really find annoying.


I just noticed something. It says _musician_ and not _composer_.

I think it very likely that Mozart was indeed the greatest musician.. he had simply an inhuman talent. Greatest composer? I think that a bit more up to debate.

I would say that Bach may have understood the craft of making music and composition better than... well just about anyone. *certainly* up to his own time, though I am unqualified to say 'certainly' about anything.


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## World Violist

Well honestly, Bach pretty much single-handedly ended the Baroque era, as he was bringing every form to its utmost perfection (and the proof is indicated that the only form he never wrote in - opera - reached its utmost over 150 years after his death, in the works of people like Wagner and Richard Strauss.

I definitely place Bach on a higher level than Mozart, because even though Mozart was perfect in form and grace and beauty, Bach knew how to dispose with those and still make something utterly perfect in every way.


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## Weston

For me the most exciting Bach piece is the Cantata No. 80 _Ein' feste Burg ist unser Gott _. A version I once had on tape used trumpets to good effect. I later learned that the trumpets were added by one of his sons, but they punctuate the proceedings so well.

One of the sectionss had marvelous trumpet trills that accentuate an almost dissonant section of the phrases. It just sounds weird for baroque and never failed to amaze me.

I do have a version of this Cantata in my collection, but a version that stays truer to the elder Bach's score, using oboes instead of trumpets. It's still fantastic, but I'd dearly love to get my hands on the more bombastic version. It may even have had timpani, but I may be misremembering.

I'd would easily put J. S. Bach in the category, if not the greatest composer, of having the greatest body of work. Those "complete works" series tempt me so, but I know my Bach collection can never be complete until I no longer hear. I have yet to hear The Art of the Fugue played on banjo and tuba ensemble for instance.

Inicidentally, have we all settled on BWV now instead of S for the catalog numbers? It was "S." when I first got into Bach.


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## Christi

Does anyone else think he's GOOD ???


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## PostMinimalist

The quetion is : Does anyone think he isn't GOD!?


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## SPR

...um.... I see a trend here.


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## Christi

Or was he ???


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## Guest

post-minimalist said:


> The quetion is : Does anyone think he isn't GOD!?


Yep me, He existed and was not a figment of the imagination


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## World Violist

Andante said:


> Yep me, He existed and was not a figment of the imagination


*GASP* HERESY!!!


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## Knaves13

On the subject of the Brilliant Classics collections, which would you think is better for someone just starting in classical music, The Mozart Collection, Beethoven Collection, or Bach Collection?

Bach is definitely one of the greatest geniuses. I was reading about him and prior to my reading I had no idea that he actually developed the, was it the well tempered system? Sorry I forgot the name. 

Not only was he a musical genius, but a mathematical genius considering he came up with so many theoretical rules which are very mathematical. Well, in my opinion at least.


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## BuddhaBandit

Knaves13 said:


> On the subject of the Brilliant Classics collections, which would you think is better for someone just starting in classical music, The Mozart Collection, Beethoven Collection, or Bach Collection?


Well I'm slightly partial to Bach (read: I basically revere almost everything the man wrote), so I'll put my vote in for him. But there is, I think, a good reason.

Mozart wrote masterpieces in basically every genre, and Haydn' symphonies, string quartets, oratorios, and masses are divine compositions. But both Mozart and Haydn wrote a lot of mediocre music. Many of Mozart's divertimenti and serenades, for example, would by complimented if I called them easy listening pieces. The same goes for some of Haydn's piano sonatas.

With Bach, though, almost everything he wrote has some merit. True, he didn't have a perfect batting average, but his great work/poor work ratio is far higher than that of other composers.

So go ahead, flame me if your a Wolfgangist or a Franz Josephile...but that's my two cents.


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## Knaves13

BuddhaBandit said:


> Well I'm slightly partial to Bach (read: I basically revere almost everything the man wrote), so I'll put my vote in for him. But there is, I think, a good reason.
> 
> Mozart wrote masterpieces in basically every genre, and Haydn' symphonies, string quartets, oratorios, and masses are divine compositions. But both Mozart and Haydn wrote a lot of mediocre music. Many of Mozart's divertimenti and serenades, for example, would by complimented if I called them easy listening pieces. The same goes for some of Haydn's piano sonatas.
> 
> With Bach, though, almost everything he wrote has some merit. True, he didn't have a perfect batting average, but his great work/poor work ratio is far higher than that of other composers.
> 
> So go ahead, flame me if your a Wolfgangist or a Franz Josephile...but that's my two cents.


Hmmmm maybe I'll go with the Bach. I'm a young composer and I'm looking for classical music to learn from and get inspired from, so Bach would probably be best for that?


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## SPR

I would suggest haydn for that.

However, you will gain something from any of those sets. There is no right answer.. go with your gut and follow your intuition.


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## Knaves13

SPR said:


> I would suggest haydn for that.
> 
> However, you will gain something from any of those sets. There is no right answer.. go with your gut and follow your intuition.


Ok, maybe I'll just look up some more works by them and see which I prefer.

I didn't know Haydn was so important to music though, I thought he was more of just a decent composer in most peoples minds.


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## SPR

he is right up there. Frequently the 'top 3' are bach, beethoven, mozart in no particular order. Then... depending on who you talk to, Tchaikovsky, Handel, Haydn, ... etc etc... but it not worth trying to pinpoint which one is right for you. Again, I dont think you could go wrong with any of those sets.

I think your idea is a good one. Try a few pieces and see which ones you like, then dig in. Dont just 'look them up'... go listen to some.


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## Knaves13

SPR said:


> he is right up there. Frequently the 'top 3' are bach, beethoven, mozart in no particular order. Then... depending on who you talk to, Tchaikovsky, Handel, Haydn, ... etc etc... but it not worth trying to pinpoint which one is right for you. Again, I dont think you could go wrong with any of those sets.
> 
> I think your idea is a good one. Try a few pieces and see which ones you like, then dig in. Dont just 'look them up'... go listen to some.


That's what I meant. Maybe I'll buy a CD of each and see.

Thanks for your advice!


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## BuddhaBandit

Knaves13 said:


> That's what I meant. Maybe I'll buy a CD of each and see.
> 
> Thanks for your advice!


That's a good idea. While you might be able to "learn" more from one composer than another, you might not enjoy the music of that composer. And enjoyment is everything. Also, if you like Haydn, you'll probably like Mozart but you won't necessarily like Bach. So as somebody else said, "go with your gut".


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## Guest

World Violist said:


> *GASP* HERESY!!!












*Woe is me, I am undone*


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## JTech82

I despise Bach. Way overrated in my opinion, but then again I hate the Baroque period anyway.


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## Bach

The composer or the forum user?


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## JTech82

Bach said:


> The composer or the forum user?


The composer. The jury is still out on you.


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## Herzeleide

J.S. Bach is the greatest. I'm in good company thinking this:

# "The immortal god of harmony" -- Ludwig van Beethoven
# "The most stupendous miracle in all music" -- Richard Wagner
# "Study Bach: there you will find everything" -- Johannes Brahms
# "To strip human nature until its divine attributes are made clear, to inform ordinary activities with spiritual fervor, to give wings of eternity to that which is most ephemeral; to make divine things human and human things divine; such is Bach, the greatest and purest moment in music of all time" -- Pablo Casals
# "O you happy sons of the North who have been reared at the bosom of Bach, how I envy you" -- Giuseppe Verdi
# "If one were asked to name one musician who came closest to composing without human flaw, I suppose general consensus would choose Johann Sebastian Bach" -- Aaron Copland
# "If Bach is not in Heaven, I am not going!" -- William F. Buckley
# "I would vote for Bach, all of Bach, streamed out into space. But this would be bragging" -- Biologist Lewis Thomas, on what message to send to an extraterrestrial civilization
# "Bach almost persuades me to be a Christian" -- Roger Fry
# "Why waste money on psychotherapy when you can listen to the B Minor Mass?" -- Michael Torke


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## Bach

Bach is boundless and eternal, but the greatest composer (and indeed the greatest artist in any field) is Ludwig van Beethoven. He is without comparison. The colossus beyond the grasp of mortals.


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## Weston

Bach said:


> Bach is boundless and eternal, but the greatest composer (and indeed the greatest artist in any field) is Ludwig van Beethoven. He is without comparison. The colossus beyond the grasp of mortals.


I would tend to agree with that, except --

Bach never ever wrote anything as reprehensible as _Wellington's Victory_
So I would say that while Beethoven wrote the greatest works, Bach wrote the greatest body of work.


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## Guest

I am a little bit undecided on the comparison between Bach and Beethoven as I hold each one very dearly, Can we fairly compare two different *styles and periods *? Beethoven's missa solemnis IMHO is not even in the same class as Bach's MagnificatBWV243a, also how can we compare String Quartets, Symphonies etc


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## opus67

And most importantly, Beethoven didn't even wear a wig (during the important years)!


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## Bach

Did he ever wear a wig?


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## opus67

When he was a young boy, probably, learning his way around the piano.


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## Guest

opus67 said:


> And most importantly, Beethoven didn't even wear a wig (during the important years)!


Being a revolutionary he probably had implants


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## nefigah

I've loved Bach since I started my classical music journey, but I'm beginning to appreciate him on a new level as I'm now getting to the point in my organ playing that I can start learning (the easiest of) his pieces. There's something magical about seeing his notes on a page, something special about it that I can't quite put my finger on. Certainly, many composers since Bach have been more "unpredictable," but just the same there is a feeling when playing a Bach piece that "I probably wouldn't have put _this_ note _here_, but I'll be damned, it was brilliant of him to do that!"


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## Guest

It is a bit like the Tardis [Dr Who] a time machine!! When you play Bach or any other composer you are being taken back in time to when the piece was written you are experiencing the thoughts and emotions of the composer and hearing what they wanted to pass on, if you get my drift


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## ecmusic

World Violist said:


> You all knew it would happen eventually: the most superfluous thread ever made for this board. The greatest contrapuntal genius of all time. I've heard it said that, while among the _public_ there are Mahler cults, Sibelius cults, and Brahms cults, there is among the _composers_ a Bach cult. Not to say there isn't a Bach cult among the public, it's just that the great composers all worshiped the guy. It is genuinely worthless to try singling out some of his greatest pieces; if you pick out about any five of the more than one thousand published works, I will guarantee that at least three, if not all, will be masterpieces.
> 
> Although *cough, cough* the B minor Mass _is_ considered to be the greatest and most perfect composition ever written in history, not to mention the Art of Fugue, Goldberg Variations, several hundred choral works, preludes, solo violin sonatas, solo cello suites, violin concerti, transcriptions of other peoples' work, harpsichord concerti, Well-Tempered Clavier....


As noted, Bach is a great inspiration to many composers....including those of today.....he was also a great improviser, as was Handel, Scarlatti, Chopin, Lizt ....etc.....an online re-release of Switched on Classics contains a highly contrapuntal homage to Bach, The Goldstein Variation (pun intended as the composer is Willam Goldstein....also a gifted improviser). I have heard that CF Peters is coming out with a symphonic version of this piece in the fall......Bach's inspiration will be felt as long as this planet we call home keeps revolving around the sun.........


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## Bach

> Bach's inspiration will be felt as long as this planet we call home keeps revolving around the sun.........


I hope you're listening to this..


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## Scum

GROSSLY OVERRATED PILE OF ****!!!!11


...


Nah, just kiddin'. Bach = perfection. The Brandenburg Concertos kick ***!


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## sam richards

As you can see from my avatar and signature, I love Bach. He is my favorite composer. I love playing his solo violin pieces on the guitar and violin. No one to this date has been able to use the violin as well as he did.
As someone else said, Bach is God.


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## Air

I'm in the process of rediscovering Bach. My favorite works so far are:

1. Mass in B Minor
2. Art of the Fugue
3. 6 Violin Partitas/6 Violin Sonatas
4. Well-Tempered Clavier
5. St. Matthew's Passion
6. Harpsichord Concerto No. 1 BWV 1052

To all Bach fans out there: I need your help. His list of 1000+ works is so intimidating but I am determined to hear the best of it! I am very familiar with his piano(harpsichord, clavichord, keyboard... what ever the heck you want to call it) /violin solo and concerti repertoire (practically know the entire WTC by heart ) but have never really delved much into his vocal and organ masterpieces. You don't know what a pleasant surprise it was to hear the Mass in B Minor, Magnificat, and St. Matthew's Passion for the first time!

For all of you who claim this: Bach is not god. Bach is a human being, and we will not accept blasphemy at this forum.  (And please don't go on a shpeel about religion, I'm pretty sure I'm the only Christian on this forum, but I won't "Jesus-freak" on you )


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## Tapkaara

What makes you think you are the only Christian, Airad. Not that I am, but I'm curious how you have come to that conclusion. (Not to throw this thread too off topic, but I had to ask.)


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## Air

Tapkaara said:


> What makes you think you are the only Christian, Airad. Not that I am, but I'm curious how you have come to that conclusion. (Not to throw this thread too off topic, but I had to ask.)


I wonder why I think that way, Tapkaara....  It's pretty obvious.  I've also based my conclusion off of a few inactive threads in the Members Chat section dealing with the issues "life", "purpose", and "religion."


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## Tapkaara

airad2 said:


> I wonder why I think that way, Tapkaara....  It's pretty obvious.  I've also based my conclusion off of a few inactive threads in the Members Chat section dealing with the issues "life", "purpose", and "religion."


Um, I'm still curious as to why it's obvious. I mean, I would find it very hard to guess whose Christian, Jewish, atheist, etc. in here just from the posts. And by the way, I'm not sure if a lack of religious discussion of our members would really make it all that obvious. This is a music forum, not a religion forum, so I think it's not all that shocking that religion doesn't come up as much as Mozart, Beethoven, etc.

Not taking you to task by the way, just very curious. (And again, my apologies from going off topic here.)


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## sam richards

Back on Topic:
Which pieces do you like most on Bach's Sonata and Paritas? ( other than the Chaconne)
My vote would go to the BMV1003 3rd moment.


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## Cyclops

I really want to find more bach. So far I've only heard The Goldberg Variations which is genius but i hate the version I have. Also heard Air on the G String,Sheep May Safely Graze etc. I once had the Brandenburg Concertos but I didn't like them. That was a few years ago tho and one's tastes change with age.


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## Bach

That Goldberg recording you have is consummate, Cyclops..


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## Cyclops

Bach said:


> That Goldberg recording you have is consummate, Cyclops..


Yea the music is,its what Gould is doing while playing that I disagree with. Just shut up and play dammit


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## Bach

It's worth getting over the petty annoyance though, his playing and interpretation is without comparison!


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## Cyclops

Bach said:


> It's worth getting over the petty annoyance though, his playing and interpretation is without comparison!


Oh yea i know what you mean but everytime I play it rather than be relaxed i get annoyed! I want to find another version.


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## wolf

Cyclops said:


> Oh yea i know what you mean but everytime I play it rather than be relaxed i get annoyed! I want to find another version.


The problem is that most other players have so very 'heavy hands' - actually although I can't stand Gould as a pianist or as a person I have to admit that. He has a fantastically light touch. Why that is so, is probably because tho other ones think it sounds 'more baroque', and it does really! Goulds interpretations feels more timeless. Just that makes me hear almost a fraction of 'jazz quality' and that makes me prefer the clumsy 'timebound' version.

That he is a nut, suffering from 'folie-de-grandeur is easy to overlook, the humming less so. But are you sure that he is humming always, he has made at least two, is he humming on both? Which versions should one recommend? I think it's very difficult to advise persons. You can say - as I did with Marriner - go out and listen to everyone else, and you'll se how dry Marriner sounds. So, go out and listen in the libraries, on the net, on your classical radio channel, one ends up with I don't know how many versions, if you cannot decide! Rosen, Perahia, Tureck, Schiff and Hewitt are some of the most recommended.


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## Air

Forget Gould and all his drama/media... I think you should all go and listen to Maria Yudina.


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## Cyclops

wolf said:


> The problem is that most other players have so very 'heavy hands' - actually although I can't stand Gould as a pianist or as a person I have to admit that. He has a fantastically light touch. Why that is so, is probably because tho other ones think it sounds 'more baroque', and it does really! Goulds interpretations feels more timeless. Just that makes me hear almost a fraction of 'jazz quality' and that makes me prefer the clumsy 'timebound' version.
> 
> That he is a nut, suffering from 'folie-de-grandeur is easy to overlook, the humming less so. But are you sure that he is humming always, he has made at least two, is he humming on both? Which versions should one recommend? I think it's very difficult to advise persons. You can say - as I did with Marriner - go out and listen to everyone else, and you'll se how dry Marriner sounds. So, go out and listen in the libraries, on the net, on your classical radio channel, one ends up with I don't know how many versions, if you cannot decide! Rosen, Perahia, Tureck, Schiff and Hewitt are some of the most recommended.


I'm not sure. I believe there were two landmark recordings. An earlier one,possibly mono,and a later one which I have,on Sony. But I want to hear the music how Bach heard it,not how someone interprets it.


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## Cyclops

airad2 said:


> Forget Gould and all his drama/media... I think you should all go and listen to Maria Yudina.


Or how about Kissin? Could he do it?


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## bdelykleon

Gould is amazing. But if can't stand his Canadian accent, I would recommend András Schiff.


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## jurianbai

*bach violin concerto*

Can recommend more notable Bach Violin Concerto beside that 1041,1042 and 1043 ?


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## HarpsichordConcerto

jurianbai said:


> Can recommend more notable Bach Violin Concerto beside that 1041,1042 and 1043 ?


Those are the only three that survived through time in their original forms, unfortunately. He must have written many more but have disappeared. Modern transcriptions have been made from his harpsichord concertos, often adapted for the violin (as those three concertos you listed have themselves been arranged later as harpsichord concertos by Bach himself). There is also the Triple Concerto for flute, violin and harpsichord BWV 1044 (which Bach himself transcribed from other works of his), though it is the harpsichord that has the largest role.


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## jurianbai

From Wiki



> Violin concertos (1041-1045)
> BWV 1041 - Violin Concerto in A minor
> BWV 1042 - Violin Concerto in E major
> BWV 1043 - Concerto for 2 violins in D minor ("Double Concerto")
> BWV 1044 - Concerto for flute, violin and harpsichord in A minor (also known as "Triple Concerto") - adaptation of harpsichord prelude and fugue in A minor BWV 894 (movts. 1 and 3) and middle movement of organ sonata in D minor BWV 527 (movt. 2).
> BWV 1045 - Violin Concerto movement in D major
> BWV 1056 - Concerto for violin in G minor (BWV 1056 is the concerto for harpsichord in F minor; it has been reconstructed for violin as the possible original instrument)


Unfortunately then, youtube has some BWV 1045 video, but not pure violin concerto and listed as sinfonia.


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## HarpsichordConcerto

jurianbai said:


> From Wiki
> 
> Unfortunately then, youtube has some BWV 1045 video, but not pure violin concerto and listed as sinfonia.


BWV1045 is a wrongly placed item in the BWV catalogue's orchestral section, in that it is simply an instrumental piece most likely for a church catanta/part of another larger piece of work. There are many examples of instrumental _sinfonia_ single movements that open Bach's numerous church cantatas.

But if it is originally written violin concertos you're after, it's those three we all know/you listed and of course Brandenburg no.3.


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## Boccherini

HarpsichordConcerto said:


> Those are the only three that survived through time in their original forms, unfortunately.


Yes, it is sad. However, if jurianbai doesn't mind about transcriptions, I'd recommend *1052*, 1054, 1056 and 1064 (triple).


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## Lukecash12

Air said:


> Forget Gould and all his drama/media... I think you should all go and listen to Maria Yudina.


Yes, yes! That and live off of Gieseking, Petri, and Michaelangeli's recordings of Bach. There's an awful lot to feed off of there.


----------



## Guest

I have several Gould recordings:
French Suites
80's Goldberg Variations
Partitas, Preludes, & Fugues

None of these are my favorite recordings, and I don't find myself listening to them much anymore. I prefer my Perahia recordings of the Goldberg Variations, Partitas, English Suites, and Keyboard Concertos. I also love the Suzuki recording of the Fantasias and Fugues on harpsichord.

I won't argue the technical merits of Gould - but to my ear, it is simply not that pleasing.


----------



## Air

Lukecash12 said:


> Yes, yes! That and live off of Gieseking, Petri, and Michaelangeli's recordings of Bach. There's an awful lot to feed off of there.


Which Petri?

Michaelangeli's recordings of the Bach-Busoni _Chaconne_** are in my opinion, some of the greatest musical feats ever accomplished. Of the ones he recorded (London 1948, Warsaw 1955, Lugano 1973, Bregenz 1988), I think the famous 1948 London recording is rightly venerated, but for me the closest Benedetti ever got to finding God was in the 1988 Bregenz. It is unique in so many ways.*

*I'm sure though, that ABM has performed the piece even more spectacularly (if that's even possible) in concert. Or better yet, at home. He was supposedly a much different pianist at home than in the public - you know the Alkan / Henselt / Godowsky syndrome. In fact, he could quite possibly be the greatest pianist of the 20th century, and not by a small margin either.

**Did I forget to add that his Bach-Busoni _Toccata and Fugue_ is unbelievable as well? And his recording of the _Italian Concerto_ certainly has its merits, though it probably isn't one of the greatest recordings of this work.

I'm quite glad Ms. Yudina has her followers. Her playing is extremely unique - and one can immediately tell hers apart from all others. One exception is her Schubert D.960. After she started taking it at slug's pace, Richter followed, and then practically everyone else. Anyways, for Bach, I like Yudina, Feinberg, and Fischer best.

As for Mr. Gould, I think his Bach is great - but it is my opinion that he excelled more in the music of a number of other composers.


----------



## Lukecash12

Air said:


> Which Petri?
> 
> Michaelangeli's recordings of the Bach-Busoni _Chaconne_** are in my opinion, some of the greatest musical feats ever accomplished. Of the ones he recorded (London 1948, Warsaw 1955, Lugano 1973, Bregenz 1988), I think the famous 1948 London recording is rightly venerated, but for me the closest Benedetti ever got to finding God was in the 1988 Bregenz. It is unique in so many ways.*
> 
> *I'm sure though, that ABM has performed the piece even more spectacularly (if that's even possible) in concert. Or better yet, at home. He was supposedly a much different pianist at home than in the public - you know the Alkan / Henselt / Godowsky syndrome. In fact, he could quite possibly be the greatest pianist of the 20th century, and not by a small margin either.
> 
> **Did I forget to add that his Bach-Busoni _Toccata and Fugue_ is unbelievable as well? And his recording of the _Italian Concerto_ certainly has its merits, though it probably isn't one of the greatest recordings of this work.
> 
> I'm quite glad Ms. Yudina has her followers. Her playing is extremely unique - and one can immediately tell hers apart from all others. One exception is her Schubert D.960. After she started taking it at slug's pace, Richter followed, and then practically everyone else. Anyways, for Bach, I like Yudina, Feinberg, and Fischer best.
> 
> As for Mr. Gould, I think his Bach is great - but it is my opinion that he excelled more in the music of a number of other composers.


I meant Egon Petri. Here is his amazing performance (which I prefer over Michaelangeli's, because of it's rhythmic qualities, and how well it realizes the melodies):











Actually, here is a Gould recording that I find definitive of one of Bach's pieces:
















It is his Concerto in D minor BWV1052. Gould's melodic focus throughout the performance, great variety of timbre and sonority, and how well his occasionally light touch complements the material is amazing.

And now, kudos to Ryan Lane Whitney, another of my very favorite keyboardists. He realizes Bach on the same intimate Baroque level, that Ronald Smith realizes the tenacity, picturesqueness, and madness of Alkan. If you listen to any of these, listen to the last one:





















And of course, I couldn't go without mentioning Eunice Norton. Here are my favorite of her's (these five are parts of the Goldberg Variations):


























And a tribute to Maria Yudina:


----------



## Lukecash12

And now for some less frequented, yet equally great names-

Raymond Trouard (the last link is a bombastic performance of Bach's Pantocrator):





















Marcelle Meyer (with a light, enthusiastic performance of the allegro from his Italian Concerto in the second link):































Brailowsky (a bit of an enigmatic player):


----------



## Lukecash12

And now, for Busoni himself!


----------



## Air

Lukecash12 said:


> I meant Egon Petri. Here is his amazing performance (which I prefer over Michaelangeli's, because of it's rhythmic qualities, and how well it realizes the melodies):
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And a tribute to Maria Yudina:







Here's Ms. Yudina's performance of Bach's _Chromatic Fantasy and Fugue, BWV 903_. She is so poised it is unreal. I think that in many ways, she was one of the most ground-breaking pianists of the century. And did I mention that Stalin adored her playing?






Here's Samuel Feinberg in the same piece. But the work is probably best interpreted on the harpsichord, by Ms. Landowska. It is so surreal:






I enjoyed both the Petri and Busoni performances of the Chaconne. I'd agree that Petri's performance is among the best, though I still consider Michaelangeli's my favorite, for its passion, tone quality, unique attention to details, etc. Petri is one of my favorite Liszt interpreters though, and he did a good Alkan too, if I recall.

Now this is quite unique:






I wonder how much Bach Michaelangeli actually played. Maybe one day they'll find stacks of his recordings in one of the Italian villas he resided in (or in the garage with the Ferraris) and we'll all find out that he actually had a repertoire larger than Richter and Pollini's combined.


----------



## Lukecash12

And what did you think of Brailowsky, Trouard, and Meyer?


----------



## Air

Lukecash12 said:


> And what did you think of Brailowsky, Trouard, and Meyer?


Mañana.

I won't be very fair with my first impressions at this time of day.

I do like Brailowsky's Chopin though, so don't worry too much.


----------



## Lukecash12

Air said:


> Mañana.
> 
> I won't be very fair with my first impressions at this time of day.
> 
> I do like Brailowsky's Chopin though, so don't worry too much.


Well, here's to hoping you warm up to Brailowsky's Bach one of these days. I think his playing is very colorful, myself.

That said, Feinberg is a fantastic choice, so in my book you're still doing pretty damned fine.

And what of Ryan Lane Whitney? His performance of the prelude from Bach's English Suite No. 6, is exemplary.


----------



## Sebastien Melmoth

Do you know E. Power Biggs' Bach?

In the late-60s and 1970s I had a good many LPs of Biggs; unfortunately, most of them never made it to CD. Here're some of the few:

http://www.amazon.com/Bach-Great-Or...=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1272494670&sr=1-3

http://www.amazon.com/Bach-Four-Gre...=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1272494670&sr=1-2

http://www.amazon.com/Biggs-Bach-Bo...=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1272494670&sr=1-4


----------



## Marc

Sebastien Melmoth said:


> Do you know E. Power Biggs' Bach?


I have one CD, with Power Biggs playing (of course) BWV 565, 542 and 582, plus some other Preludes & Fugues and also the Pastorella BWV 590. The interpretation of the latter is one of my faves.

Topic duty: Bach is my favourite composer. Dunno if he is the greatest. Dunno what 'greatest' means anyway.

But I *do* know that he is *not* God. I consider Bach utterly human .... yet able to compose some heavenly music, for a great deal inspired by his Christian belief: _Soli Deo Gloria_.

My guess is that anyone who would have the gutz to call Bach _God_ in front of the maestro himself, would receive quite a good spanky from him.


----------



## BachSucks

BACK SUCKS! He did back then and he does now!


----------



## Guest

BachSucks said:


> BACK SUCKS! He did back then and he does now!


That comment shows excellent judgement particularly when posted on this forum, have you had enough of life already ?


----------



## StlukesguildOhio

BachSucks said:


> BACK SUCKS! He did back then and he does now!


If you're going to be a proper troll and spew forth inane comments in hope of firing people up, at least learn to spell correctly.


----------



## HerlockSholmes

Why is there a thread about my profile picture?


----------



## regressivetransphobe

BachSucks said:


> BACK SUCKS! He did back then and he does now!


Why is this guy banned? He makes a compelling argument, and with such eloquence too.


----------



## TrazomGangflow

Who doesn't like Bach?


----------



## Guest

TrazomGangflow said:


> Who doesn't like Bach?


BachSucks just a bit above you


----------



## TrazomGangflow

Andante said:


> BachSucks just a bit above you


Do you have proof that Bach sucks? He is considered by some to be the greatest composer of all time. (although personally I think Beethoven made a greater influence) Bach wrote over 1,000 pieces and he led the way for many later composers.


----------



## Guest

TrazomGangflow said:


> Do you have proof that Bach sucks? He is considered by some to be the greatest composer of all time. (although personally I think Beethoven made a greater influence) Bach wrote over 1,000 pieces and he led the way for many later composers.


I was answering your question by referring to the post above yours (89) which in turn was referring to a post by BachSucks, I was not attacking you


----------



## TrazomGangflow

Andante said:


> I was answering your question by referring to the post above yours (89) which in turn was referring to a post by BachSucks, I was not attacking you


Sorry I misread your post.


----------



## starthrower

If life wasn't so short I'd probably listen to more Bach. I've only purchased three Bach CDs in 27 years. I bought my third yesterday. An E. Power Biggs organ record. The others are the Brandenburg Concertos, and the Goldberg Variations.


----------



## HarpsichordConcerto

1685 was a unique year in music history: three absolute giants of western music were born! Bach, Handel and Domenico Scarlatti. I wonder if aliens had anything to do with this ...


----------



## Sid James

starthrower said:


> If life wasn't so short I'd probably listen to more Bach. I've only purchased three Bach CDs in 27 years. I bought my third yesterday. An E. Power Biggs organ record. The others are the Brandenburg Concertos, and the Goldberg Variations.


I haven't got much Bach now, but I had more ages ago (incl. a number of those works you mention, as well as some compilations incl. E. Power Biggs' recordings) before I got rid of them (but I didn't only get rid of Bach discs, but a lot else for various reasons).

Anyway, to cut a long story short, a little familiarity with J.S. Bach's music can go a long way in terms of using that to appreciate all the composers he influenced way after his death (esp. in terms of counterpoint, but also other things). Even though he's by no means my favourite composer, nor do I like to say certain things are like essential prior knowledge in terms of enjoying classical music, I would go near to saying that regarding J.S. Bach (esp. his fugues, knowledge of which has been very important for other composers writing them, whether they stick to the conventions he set down, or not). Even though a lay listener is not a composer or musician, does not need that high end knowledge, it is good to know what say a Bach fugue sounds like so that you can "hear" similar things happening all over the place in music after - eg. from Beethoven, to Bartok, to Hindemith, Villa-Lobos, Tippett, & so on. Even parts of Elgar's string quartet are so laden with types of counterpoint and fugal passages that hark back to Bach (& Beethoven, Brahms, etc.), yet we don't usually think of Elgar as that type of composer.

In terms of what I like by J. S. Bach, it's more his instrumental, esp. solo instrumental, that I like, not his vocal things. But they are enough for me to grasp the basics of his sound, style, approach, etc. so I can apply it to other musics that I listen to...


----------



## Guest

TrazomGangflow said:


> Sorry I misread your post.


That's OK, it happens lol


----------



## HerlockSholmes

I'm not obssessed with Bach's music. And I'm definitely not obssessed with his fugues.
I'm not obssessed with Bach's music. And I'm definitely not obssessed with his fugues.
I'm not obssessed with Bach's music.
I'm not obssessed with Bach's music.
I'm not obssessed with Bach's music.
I'm not obssessed with Bach's music.
I'm not obssessed with Bach's music.
I'm not obssessed with Bach's music.
I'm not obssessed with Bach's music. 
I'm not obssessed with Bach's music. 
I'm not obssessed with Bach's music. And I'm definitely not obssessed with his fugues.
I'm not obssessed with Bach's music. And I'm definitely not obssessed with his fugues.
I'm not obssessed with Bach's music.
I'm not obssessed with Bach's music.
I'm not obssessed with Bach's music.
I'm not obssessed with Bach's music.
I'm not obssessed with Bach's music.
I'm not obssessed with Bach's music.
I'm not obssessed with Bach's music. 
I'm not obssessed with Bach's music. 
I'm not obssessed with Bach's music. And I'm definitely not obssessed with his fugues.
I'm not obssessed with Bach's music. And I'm definitely not obssessed with his fugues.
I'm not obssessed with Bach's music.
I'm not obssessed with Bach's music.
I'm not obssessed with Bach's music.
I'm not obssessed with Bach's music.
I'm not obssessed with Bach's music.
I'm not obssessed with Bach's music.
I'm not obssessed with Bach's music. 
I'm not obssessed with Bach's music. 
I'm not obssessed with Bach's music. And I'm definitely not obssessed with his fugues.
I'm not obssessed with Bach's music. And I'm definitely not obssessed with his fugues.
I'm not obssessed with Bach's music.
I'm not obssessed with Bach's music.
I'm not obssessed with Bach's music.
I'm not obssessed with Bach's music.
I'm not obssessed with Bach's music.
I'm not obssessed with Bach's music.
I'm not obssessed with Bach's music. 
I'm not obssessed with Bach's music. 
I'm not obssessed with Bach's music. And I'm definitely not obssessed with his fugues.
I'm not obssessed with Bach's music. And I'm definitely not obssessed with his fugues.
I'm not obssessed with Bach's music.
I'm not obssessed with Bach's music.
I'm not obssessed with Bach's music.
I'm not obssessed with Bach's music.
I'm not obssessed with Bach's music.
I'm not obssessed with Bach's music.
I'm not obssessed with Bach's music. 
I'm not obssessed with Bach's music. 
I'm not obssessed with Bach's music. And I'm definitely not obssessed with his fugues.
I'm not obssessed with Bach's music. And I'm definitely not obssessed with his fugues.
I'm not obssessed with Bach's music.
I'm not obssessed with Bach's music.
I'm not obssessed with Bach's music.
I'm not obssessed with Bach's music.
I'm not obssessed with Bach's music.
I'm not obssessed with Bach's music.
I'm not obssessed with Bach's music. 
I'm not obssessed with Bach's music. 
I'm not obssessed with Bach's music. And I'm definitely not obssessed with his fugues.
I'm not obssessed with Bach's music. And I'm definitely not obssessed with his fugues.


----------



## clavichorder

^What's the symbolic significance to there being eight "I'm not obssessed with Bach's music." puntuated by two "I'm not obssessed with Bach's music. And I'm definitely not obssessed with his fugues." in each part of your pattern? I'm curious if there is any, otherwise we are just observing a flaunting of your ocd.


----------



## HerlockSholmes

clavichorder said:


> ^What's the symbolic significance to there being eight "I'm not obssessed with Bach's music." puntuated by two "I'm not obssessed with Bach's music. And I'm definitely not obssessed with his fugues." in each part of your pattern? I'm curious if there is any, otherwise we are just observing a flaunting of your ocd.


I was listening to the Partita No. 4 in D major, BWV828 when I was writing that, and decided to structure it that way.


----------



## itywltmt

This week Mr. Bach is my Number one obsession:
http://www.talkclassical.com/blogs/itywltmt/401-playlist-js-bach-firsts.html


----------



## Lukecash12

Sid James said:


> I haven't got much Bach now, but I had more ages ago (incl. a number of those works you mention, as well as some compilations incl. E. Power Biggs' recordings) before I got rid of them (but I didn't only get rid of Bach discs, but a lot else for various reasons).
> 
> Anyway, to cut a long story short, a little familiarity with J.S. Bach's music can go a long way in terms of using that to appreciate all the composers he influenced way after his death (esp. in terms of counterpoint, but also other things). Even though he's by no means my favourite composer, nor do I like to say certain things are like essential prior knowledge in terms of enjoying classical music, I would go near to saying that regarding J.S. Bach (esp. his fugues, knowledge of which has been very important for other composers writing them, whether they stick to the conventions he set down, or not). Even though a lay listener is not a composer or musician, does not need that high end knowledge, it is good to know what say a Bach fugue sounds like so that you can "hear" similar things happening all over the place in music after - eg. from Beethoven, to Bartok, to Hindemith, Villa-Lobos, Tippett, & so on. Even parts of Elgar's string quartet are so laden with types of counterpoint and fugal passages that hark back to Bach (& Beethoven, Brahms, etc.), yet we don't usually think of Elgar as that type of composer.
> 
> In terms of what I like by J. S. Bach, it's more his instrumental, esp. solo instrumental, that I like, not his vocal things. But they are enough for me to grasp the basics of his sound, style, approach, etc. so I can apply it to other musics that I listen to...


Bach did more than influence other composers.


----------



## Guest

I rate Bach and Beethoven first amongst all composers. I found it extremely difficult playing the preludes and fugues on the piano because so much is going on in just one bar and the musical lines are treacherous territory for any musician. Just listening to great musicians saying how difficult Bach is to play is enough for me. I value fabulous intellect and musicality above all other criteria, and the older I get the more demanding I want my music - that's why I listen to Berg and Webern now: I think there's a musical line there (pardon the pun) which has evolved directly from JS Bach.


----------



## itywltmt

Bach and _the three R's_
http://www.talkclassical.com/blogs/itywltmt/485-bach-keeps-green-continued-next.html


----------



## science

Eventually we can merge this: http://www.talkclassical.com/18623-johann-sebastian-bach.html


----------



## Philip

HerlockSholmes said:


> I'm not obssessed with Bach's music. And I'm definitely not obssessed with his fugues.
> I'm not obssessed with Bach's music. And I'm definitely not obssessed with his fugues.
> I'm not obssessed with Bach's music.
> I'm not obssessed with Bach's music.
> I'm not obssessed with Bach's music.
> I'm not obssessed with Bach's music.
> I'm not obssessed with Bach's music.
> I'm not obssessed with Bach's music.
> I'm not obssessed with Bach's music.
> I'm not obssessed with Bach's music.
> I'm not obssessed with Bach's music. And I'm definitely not obssessed with his fugues.
> I'm not obssessed with Bach's music. And I'm definitely not obssessed with his fugues.
> I'm not obssessed with Bach's music.
> I'm not obssessed with Bach's music.
> I'm not obssessed with Bach's music.
> I'm not obssessed with Bach's music.
> I'm not obssessed with Bach's music.
> I'm not obssessed with Bach's music.
> I'm not obssessed with Bach's music.
> I'm not obssessed with Bach's music.
> I'm not obssessed with Bach's music. And I'm definitely not obssessed with his fugues.
> I'm not obssessed with Bach's music. And I'm definitely not obssessed with his fugues.
> I'm not obssessed with Bach's music.
> I'm not obssessed with Bach's music.
> I'm not obssessed with Bach's music.
> I'm not obssessed with Bach's music.
> I'm not obssessed with Bach's music.
> I'm not obssessed with Bach's music.
> I'm not obssessed with Bach's music.
> I'm not obssessed with Bach's music.
> I'm not obssessed with Bach's music. And I'm definitely not obssessed with his fugues.
> I'm not obssessed with Bach's music. And I'm definitely not obssessed with his fugues.
> I'm not obssessed with Bach's music.
> I'm not obssessed with Bach's music.
> I'm not obssessed with Bach's music.
> I'm not obssessed with Bach's music.
> I'm not obssessed with Bach's music.
> I'm not obssessed with Bach's music.
> I'm not obssessed with Bach's music.
> I'm not obssessed with Bach's music.
> I'm not obssessed with Bach's music. And I'm definitely not obssessed with his fugues.
> I'm not obssessed with Bach's music. And I'm definitely not obssessed with his fugues.
> I'm not obssessed with Bach's music.
> I'm not obssessed with Bach's music.
> I'm not obssessed with Bach's music.
> I'm not obssessed with Bach's music.
> I'm not obssessed with Bach's music.
> I'm not obssessed with Bach's music.
> I'm not obssessed with Bach's music.
> I'm not obssessed with Bach's music.
> I'm not obssessed with Bach's music. And I'm definitely not obssessed with his fugues.
> I'm not obssessed with Bach's music. And I'm definitely not obssessed with his fugues.
> I'm not obssessed with Bach's music.
> I'm not obssessed with Bach's music.
> I'm not obssessed with Bach's music.
> I'm not obssessed with Bach's music.
> I'm not obssessed with Bach's music.
> I'm not obssessed with Bach's music.
> I'm not obssessed with Bach's music.
> I'm not obssessed with Bach's music.
> I'm not obssessed with Bach's music. And I'm definitely not obssessed with his fugues.
> I'm not obssessed with Bach's music. And I'm definitely not obssessed with his fugues.


God this member was so obnoxious... so glad he's gone!


----------



## Dodecaplex

Philip said:


> God this member was so obnoxious... so glad he's gone!


I'm definitely not HerlockSholmes.
I'm definitely not HerlockSholmes.
I'm definitely not HerlockSholmes.
I'm definitely not HerlockSholmes. And I'm definitely not posting pr0n again.
I'm definitely not HerlockSholmes.
I'm definitely not HerlockSholmes.
I'm definitely not HerlockSholmes.
I'm definitely not HerlockSholmes. And I'm definitely not posting pr0n again.
I'm definitely not HerlockSholmes.
I'm definitely not HerlockSholmes.
I'm definitely not HerlockSholmes.
I'm definitely not HerlockSholmes. And I'm definitely not posting pr0n again.

Therefore, I am John von Neumann*.

*What you saw above was essentially ex falso quodlibet in all its glory.

This was time well spent.


----------



## Illuminatedtoiletpaper

And to think, his sons are but genius extensions of himself!


----------



## Muddy

Listen to any Bach cantata. As I understand, writing cantatas was Bach's primary job. He just grinded them out, one after another. I believe there is more genius in these cantatas than in any other body of work in all of music.

Seriously, we all debate whether this quartet or that trio or this sonata or that concerto or this symphony or that mass is the greatest.

I have maybe 1/3 of the Bach cantatas...maybe less! Of these, I put together a playlist of my favorite selections from them, and it lasts almost 8 hours long. One composer. Highlights from less than 1/3 of his cantatas overwhelm! And this doesn't even consider his more "popular" achievements!

Bach is the greatest composer that has ever lived.


----------



## Cnote11

Perhaps you meant that Bach is the greatest composer prior to the career of Ravel.


----------



## PetrB

Those who sign up wholesale for any religion are freed from thinking.

"The greatest contrapuntist of all time?" Bah - bah - bah, pish tosh. THAT IGNORES about four hundred previous years and dozens of masters 'equal' to Bach in counterpoint. Just admit it, is is one kind of mostly Tonal counterpoint which to many is more ACCESSIBLE than the earlier, or later, contrapuntist masters, Including some whose counterpoint does not remotely sound like 18th century baroque Thuringian / Saxon style.

Sick of the near psychotic Bach Sycophancy / reverence, while not denying he was One of The Very Brilliant Composers, but Just One of Them.

ADD: Everyone has the 'right' to their own faith, as it were. Its just so many of these 'my hero' threads start out with an assumption / presumption that everyone has subscribed to the faith, eaten the wafer, drunk the wine, etc. In a 'modern' world, I just find that downright peculiar.


----------



## PetrB

Dodecaplex said:


> I'm definitely not HerlockSholmes.
> I'm definitely not HerlockSholmes.
> I'm definitely not HerlockSholmes.
> I'm definitely not HerlockSholmes. And I'm definitely not posting pr0n again.
> I'm definitely not HerlockSholmes.
> I'm definitely not HerlockSholmes.
> I'm definitely not HerlockSholmes.
> I'm definitely not HerlockSholmes. And I'm definitely not posting pr0n again.
> I'm definitely not HerlockSholmes.
> I'm definitely not HerlockSholmes.
> I'm definitely not HerlockSholmes.
> I'm definitely not HerlockSholmes. And I'm definitely not posting pr0n again.
> 
> Therefore, I am John von Neumann*.
> 
> *What you saw above was essentially ex falso quodlibet in all its glory.
> 
> This was time well spent.


And, appropriately, wildly many many column inches less


----------



## PetrB

Air said:


> I'm in the process of rediscovering Bach. My favorite works so far are:
> 
> 1. Mass in B Minor
> 2. Art of the Fugue
> 3. 6 Violin Partitas/6 Violin Sonatas
> 4. Well-Tempered Clavier
> 5. St. Matthew's Passion
> 6. Harpsichord Concerto No. 1 BWV 1052
> 
> To all Bach fans out there: I need your help. His list of 1000+ works is so intimidating but I am determined to hear the best of it! I am very familiar with his piano(harpsichord, clavichord, keyboard... what ever the heck you want to call it) /violin solo and concerti repertoire (practically know the entire WTC by heart ) but have never really delved much into his vocal and organ masterpieces. You don't know what a pleasant surprise it was to hear the Mass in B Minor, Magnificat, and St. Matthew's Passion for the first time!
> 
> For all of you who claim this: Bach is not god. Bach is a human being, and we will not accept blasphemy at this forum.  (And please don't go on a shpeel about religion, I'm pretty sure I'm the only Christian on this forum, but I won't "Jesus-freak" on you )


The Wedding Cantata is pretty amazing... if for nothing else, the stunning aria, "
Weichet nur, betrübte Schatten," for Soprano with a second melody on the baroque oboe, (Oboe Oboe da caccia).


----------



## PetrB

*Q: "Who Doesn't Like Bach?"**

A: 'Hey everyone, I'm ordering pizzas for the group all round. Everyone Likes Anchovies, Right?'*


----------



## tahnak

Philip said:


> God this member was so obnoxious... so glad he's gone!


If he had listened to one Gigue Fugue in G Minor on pipe organ, this megalomaniac would have definitely become obsessed.


----------



## Mesa

Fun fact: I've recently taken up 'Weeping for the genius of Bach' as a pastime.


----------



## Moira

I've never quite made up my mind about whether I like Bach or whether I merely tolerate him in quite large doses.


----------



## Minifozzy

I personally think that the horn adaptations of J.S. Bach's cello suites - especially the minuetto 1 and 2 of the first suite - are wonderful. I realise they aren't actually works of the man himself, but Wendell Hoss, the transcriber of the suites, did the old guy justice. They are a beautiful set of suites.


----------



## Philip

Dodecaplex said:


> I'm definitely not HerlockSholmes.
> I'm definitely not HerlockSholmes.
> I'm definitely not HerlockSholmes.
> I'm definitely not HerlockSholmes. And I'm definitely not posting pr0n again.
> I'm definitely not HerlockSholmes.
> I'm definitely not HerlockSholmes.
> I'm definitely not HerlockSholmes.
> I'm definitely not HerlockSholmes. And I'm definitely not posting pr0n again.
> I'm definitely not HerlockSholmes.
> I'm definitely not HerlockSholmes.
> I'm definitely not HerlockSholmes.
> I'm definitely not HerlockSholmes. And I'm definitely not posting pr0n again.
> 
> Therefore, I am John von Neumann*.
> 
> *What you saw above was essentially ex falso quodlibet in all its glory.
> 
> This was time well spent.


God this member was so obnoxious... so glad he's gone!


----------



## lilmoz

For me he's the first ,the pioneer of the music!


----------



## GeorgeT

Bach is my favorite composer after Franz Liszt.I've been obsessed with his Well-Tempered Clavier.I think what's most ingenious with his music,is that it has no particular setting or theme,nor "signature".Bach is much closer to the natural concepts of music as a whole,and his composing is for the music itself.As physicist,I've always ha a feeling of the elegance and simplicity of quantum-theory based particle interactions with his music.Every note comes and goes so effortlessly,as the human brain itself is set for the musical pattern.He was the most genius of them all,for sure.


----------



## powerbooks

Air said:


> I'm in the process of rediscovering Bach. My favorite works so far are:
> 
> 1. Mass in B Minor
> 2. Art of the Fugue
> 3. 6 Violin Partitas/6 Violin Sonatas
> 4. Well-Tempered Clavier
> 5. St. Matthew's Passion
> 6. Harpsichord Concerto No. 1 BWV 1052
> 
> To all Bach fans out there: I need your help. His list of 1000+ works is so intimidating but I am determined to hear the best of it! I am very familiar with his piano(harpsichord, clavichord, keyboard... what ever the heck you want to call it) /violin solo and concerti repertoire (practically know the entire WTC by heart ) but have never really delved much into his vocal and organ masterpieces. You don't know what a pleasant surprise it was to hear the Mass in B Minor, Magnificat, and St. Matthew's Passion for the first time!
> 
> For all of you who claim this: Bach is not god. Bach is a human being, and we will not accept blasphemy at this forum.  (And please don't go on a shpeel about religion, I'm pretty sure I'm the only Christian on this forum, but I won't "Jesus-freak" on you )


Add Goldberg Variations, and it becomes a good list.


----------



## Oliver

If you don't adore Bach after listening to this, you're not human.


----------



## Oliver

powerbooks said:


> Add Goldberg Variations, and it becomes a good list.


And the Partitas!111one!


----------



## Guest

When NASA made the gold plaque to send on the space craft 'I can't remember it's name' with a map of how to find Earth etc the suggestion was made to include some Bach, someone said that would be seen to be bragging


----------



## powerbooks

Andante said:


> When NASA made the gold plaque to send on the space craft 'I can't remember it's name' with a map of how to find Earth etc the suggestion was made to include some Bach, someone said that would be seen to be bragging


And here is the list:

http://voyager.jpl.nasa.gov/spacecraft/music.html

Don't think its bragging, just a selections of a variety of music on the earth.


----------



## Ripvanwinkle

powerbooks said:


> And here is the list:
> 
> http://voyager.jpl.nasa.gov/spacecraft/music.html
> 
> Don't think its bragging, just a selections of a variety of music on the earth.


Absolutely!! Bach is one of the greatest composers who ever lived. Why shouldn't the Martians hear the best we have? So what if it's bragging, we can brag! Let the Martians brag about their own music. I'm give it a listen.

RIP


----------



## Guest

I do believe they spoke it as a joke! and Rip van Winy be very careful when you say some one or thing is the best some one will take you to task


----------



## jani

Beethovens 5th would scare aliens away!


----------



## Ripvanwinkle

Andante said:


> I do believe they spoke it as a joke! and Rip van Winy be very careful when you say some one or thing is the best some one will take you to task


I know it was a joke and my reply was a joke. Take me to task??? If I say someone or something is the best it is my opinion and I am not obligated to you (or anyone else) to explain myself anymore than you (or anyone else) is obligated to agree with me. Mr. Andippy, I don't have to "BE CAREFUL". What is it with you senior members on these forum sites that makes you think you're in charge? Do you peruse the forum looking for new members whom you feel you can criticize for whatever reason you can come up with? I have made about 10 posts on this forum and already you are ridiculing my handle and making suggestions on how you think I should behave. No Mr. Andippy, I will not "BE CAREFUL" when stating my opinions and I don't care if you're a supermember with a bazzillion posts.


----------



## Ripvanwinkle

jani said:


> Beethovens 5th would scare aliens away!


:lol: There are several works that would accomplish that. Wagner and "Ride of the Valkyries" comes to mind. :tiphat:


----------



## Guest

Ripvanwinkle said:


> I know it was a joke and my reply was a joke. Take me to task??? If I say someone or something is the best it is my opinion and I am not obligated to you (or anyone else) to explain myself anymore than you (or anyone else) is obligated to agree with me. Mr. Andippy, I don't have to "BE CAREFUL". What is it with you senior members on these forum sites that makes you think you're in charge? Do you peruse the forum looking for new members whom you feel you can criticize for whatever reason you can come up with? I have made about 10 posts on this forum and already you are ridiculing my handle and making suggestions on how you think I should behave. No Mr. Andippy, I will not "BE CAREFUL" when stating my opinions and I don't care if you're a supermember with a bazzillion posts.


 You are a bit touchy, sorry I spoke.


----------



## nikola

I don't know how to articulate this since I'm not musician, but I've noticed that those Glenn Gould piano music that I'm listening from Bach has very calming effect on me. Not on level to put me to sleep, but to keep me calm. Also, I am somehow anxious and nervous person, so Bach's music makes me feel somehow hyperactive and calm at same time. Is it because of those high and low notes together? What's name of that? Polyphony? 
That waiting for high note after low note simply has some strange influence on me, but I like it. Or is it about time between notes? I don't know... I guess all this I've said doesn't make any sense.


----------



## Jord

Little Fugue in G minor played on a piano instead of an organ! Organs to me have no clarity


----------



## itywltmt

My first of a two-part podcast on the changing perspectives on performing the *Brandenburg Concertos*. Part I looks at concertos 4, 5 and 6.

Musing @ http://itywltmt.blogspot.ca/2012/12/montage-83-brandenburg-perspectives.html
Podcast @ http://itywltmt.podomatic.com/entry/2012-12-07T00_00_00-08_00


----------



## itywltmt

Part two of my Brandndenburg Perspectives, focused on concerti 1, 2 and 3

Podcast @ http://itywltmt.podomatic.com/entry/2012-12-14T00_00_00-08_00
Commentary @ http://itywltmt.blogspot.ca/2012/12/montage-843-brandenburg-perspectives.html


----------



## TheVioletKing

J.S. Bach is my favorite composer. There is very little if any music that I do not like by him.

My personal favorites by him include: St. Matthews Passion, Mass in b minor, all the Brandenburg Concertos, The Art of the Fugue, and his Coffee Cantana


----------



## science

I've been Goulding it up lately. I find this much more satisfying than the other recording I have, Tureck, which I bought because I trusted some famous English books that purport to review recordings of classical music...:










Maybe someday I'll grow to appreciate that.

Now what I want to hear are the supposedly definitive recordings on harpsichord. What would they be?


----------



## Guest

Bach is the M-A-N, next to Beethoven (and also Brahms - what's with the "B"'s!!??)

Adore "St. Matthew Passion", "St. John Passion", "The 48", Cantatas, Goldberg Variations, "Easter Oratorio" (coming up!!), English and French Suites, B Minor Mass, Magnificat, not to mention all his transcriptions of his other works, eg. D Minor "Piano Concerto", concertos for double harpsichords and then the VAST amount of organ music. Did he ever sleep, I wonder?


----------



## MichaelSolo

I think Pablo Casals, as quoted at the topic start, described Bach the best.

Bach music is not just music; it trascends that, by far. Bach speaks of the essense of being human, it talks the language of God using art as the only feasible tool.

It does contain in itself a lot of later music of other composers, up to this day. Many modern compositions and even pop songs can be associated with a bar or two of contrapuncutal development of his music - that is, when they are good.

Contrapunctual analysis of Bach works provides a lot of surprizes and finds for an inquisitive mind; those are, nevertheless, not more important for Bach than mortar and clay for an architect.

To me, his music frequently sounds as though it combines burning fire of high emotion with calm and ice of almost meditative contemplation and structure; the opposites are joined in the moment, in front of my eyes, and that is not even the point.

Freedom and unimposing deliberation in creating the beauty and harmony do make one think of him as of God Himself. And, truly, he is close to Him.


----------



## Guest

MichaelSolo said:


> I think Pablo Casals, as quoted at the topic start, described Bach the best.
> 
> Bach music is not just music; it trascends that, by far. Bach speaks of the essense of being human, it talks the language of God using art as the only feasible tool.
> 
> It does contain in itself a lot of later music of other composers, up to this day. Many modern compositions and even pop songs can be associated with a bar or two of contrapuncutal development of his music - that is, when they are good.
> 
> Contrapunctual analysis of Bach works provides a lot of surprizes and finds for an inquisitive mind; those are, nevertheless, not more important for Bach than mortar and clay for an architect.
> 
> To me, his music frequently sounds as though it combines burning fire of high emotion with calm and ice of almost meditative contemplation and structure; the opposites are joined in the moment, in front of my eyes, and that is not even the point.
> 
> Freedom and unimposing deliberation in creating the beauty and harmony do make one think of him as of God Himself. And, truly, he is close to Him.


These are beautiful things to say about Bach, but I don't think of any man as God Himself. The miracle, for me, is that he was a Mensch!! In fact, many have suggested that his was one of the greatest brains in human history and I wouldn't argue with that. Andras Schiff refers to Bach as "the old Testament in music".

And I love what you said about his music's emotional qualities - this shines through; his love of God, his service and duty to God, as the basis of that love. Yes, "high emotion with calm and ice of almost meditative contemplation". Magnificently expressed.

Who could not be moved to tears by the emotion and beauty of the B Minor Mass or St. Matthew Passion. This is devastating music. And it might surprise people to learn that when in Cothen, when Bach was composing such types of large-scale religious work, the "town council" had to approve it and they instructed Bach to write, "nothing too theatrical". (Transposing that idea today to, say, the London City Council.................!!!!!)


----------



## worov

> I've been Goulding it up lately. I find this much more satisfying than the other recording I have, Tureck, which I bought because I trusted some famous English books that purport to review recordings of classical music...:


Tureck is my favorite Bach interpreter. I used to be a great fan of Gould. But I have lost the taste for it. His recordings have become too weird for me, too idiossyncratic.

I'm not an expert on harpichord, but I enjoy Gustav Leonhardt. I like very much Ralph Kirkpatrick on the clavichord.


----------



## MichaelSolo

CountenanceAnglaise said:


> These are beautiful things to say about Bach, but I don't think of any man as God Himself. The miracle, for me, is that he was a Mensch!! In fact, many have suggested that his was one of the greatest brains in human history and I wouldn't argue with that. Andras Schiff refers to Bach as "the old Testament in music". ...


I meant to say, Bach was not God, but is very close to Him.

His music is not religious, despite the titles of his works. His music is rather divine.


----------



## StlukesguildOhio

Now what I want to hear are the supposedly definitive recordings on harpsichord. What would they be?

I'm not a huge fan of the harpsichord... but here are a few I like:










I was struck by the various tonalities and musical colors that Staier achieved from thee harpsichord. I also found that the instrument was recorded in such a manner as to avoid the incessant jangling.

You might also wish to check out this:










Kirkpatrick was a scholar/performer known for his catalog of Scarlatti's sonatas. His Well-Tempered Clavier is one of the essential recordings IMO. It was recorded on a clavichord which is more intimate than a harpsichord... but is every bit as accurate to Bach. The Well Tempered Clavier was composed for the keyboard... and the clavier was just as much an instrument of Bach's time and familiar to him as the harpsichord.

Another solid harpsichord recording:










Honestly, my aversion to the harpsichord is limited to its use as a solo instrument. As part of an ensemble... however small... I can enjoy it. Here, for example, paired with the violin... and what a violin... Rachel!


----------



## Guest

Stlukesguild, "excessive jangling"??? Beecham used to say, "skeletons copulating on a tin roof". :lol:

I love the harpsichord. May I recommend the Rameau works for solo harpsichord: "Les Cyclopes". What's not to love?! (Woops, this is a Bach discussion. Tut mir leid!).


----------



## fox_druid

Just discovered another treasure of Bach while driving my car. "Jesus meine Lebens Licht" BWV 118 and got into this typical bach trance-like state of ecstasy. Thanks opa Bach, it really brightens my day! and I'm really sorry to have forgotten to say something for your birthday. So, now I'd like to say my belated birthday wish to you, happy birthday, opa Bach


----------



## Vaneyes

The real JS is revealed by JEG.

http://www.theguardian.com/music/2013/sep/21/secret-bach-teenage-thug


----------



## Itullian

Bach.....the more you listen, the more you want to listen.

I'm a Suzuki guy for the vocal works though.


----------



## Celloman

Bach is my personal nomination for the greatest composer who ever lived.


----------



## Bas

Itullian said:


> Bach.....the more you listen, the more you want to listen.
> 
> I'm a Suzuki guy for the vocal works though.


How do you like Herreweghe?


----------



## cDeanSharon

I fell in love with Bach when I was very young thanks to Disney's _Fantasia_. As I grew up, I veered off the trail with Bach as I discovered the catalogues of other composers, however, I always found my way back. A few years ago, I found a kindred spirit with classical music in one of the professors I had as an undergrad. As I mentioned, I had always had an affinity for classical, but I wasn't necessarily a "serious listener." Dr. F, as I'll call him, really got me into taking music, specifically Bach (his personal favorite as well), much more seriously than I had before when he burnt a copy of Grumiaux's recording of the Sonatas and Partitas. Never before had I experienced such a profound awakening! Frankly, I was hooked and began to gobble up as much as I could from Bach and every other composer (or conductor) I have taken a liking to.

Ever since, after classes were out, Dr. F and I would meet to listen to and discuss different recordings of various composers works. We were as thick as thieves when it came to music, so much so that Dr. F once asked me to house-sit for him over the holidays one year so that I might have a chance to pilfer his truly epic collection of music (every wall of the guy's living room was lined with CDs) which I was happy to do. That was all about four years ago and I have since graduated and moved on to graduate work, however, we still have the opportunity to chat every now and then.

While my collection might still be seen as that of a beginner, I have built quite an impressive repertoire of my own. Among my collection, I have since accumulated five different recordings of the Sonatas & Partitas including a proper copy of the Grumiaux that started me off (I also still have the original burnt copies) and, my (current) personal favorite, Milstein's 1970's set.

I know this page is about Bach, but I couldn't help but share the story of how a mutual appreciation developed a friendship and a life long love of listening to and collecting music. I will always be grateful to Dr. F for that most wonderful gift.


----------



## Itullian

Bas said:


> How do you like Herreweghe?


I like Herreweghe very much. I think he's up there with Suzuki.
Especially in the major choral works.


----------



## Guest

I also really enjoy Herreweghe - my second favorite behind Suzuki. I prefer both to Gardiner for Bach - not to short change Gardiner. There are several really good options for Bach's choral works.


----------



## Bas

Gardiner is too "english", don't you think? Like if he is trying to make Bach some sort of Handel?


----------



## realdealblues

I have the Gardiner Cantatas/Sacred Works recordings and they sound pleasant enough, but I honestly don't listen to them much. I've only heard a few from Herreweghe. I've heard quite a bit from Suzuki.

Karl Richter is still my guy when it comes to Bach. I do like Pinnock though for some of the Orchestral Works and Keyboard Concertos as a nice alternative.


----------



## Bachworshipper

Bachs works are elegantly beautiful!


----------



## Centropolis

I want to ask you Bach lovers about this boxset that I bought around the beginning of time when I started buying classical CDs about 4 months ago.

http://www.amazon.com/Masterworks-J...d=1382031057&sr=8-2&keywords=bach+masterworks

It was one of those purchases that I made without too much knowledge of labels and various conductors. I just saw it at a used CD place and bought it for what I thought it was a decent price. Since then, I've learned a lot more how different conductors "play" the music.

What I want to ask is, since I've read the very average reviews on Amazon on this box, especially the below average comments on the Brandenburg Concertos, I've listened to them a few times last week and I kind of agree to the reviewer's comment about the performances of Brandenburg Concerto on this box. But I have a feeling that it's really not that bad and I'm just "jaded" by the reviewer's comments. I know there are better recordings of the Brandenburg Concertos that I can buy but are the ones in this box really that bad in your opinion? Any other comments about other music on this box as well?

I have been thinking about selling this box and just get a few better recordings of his more famous works. It will probably end of costing the same but a lot less music.


----------



## shangoyal

I am currently in awe of his keyboard music. What music.


----------



## Celloman

I'm listening to his second keyboard suite right now(Perahia). I don't know which suites I like more: French or English. They're both excellent.


----------



## shangoyal

Then there are the inventions, sinfonias, goldbergs, wtc, ......



Celloman said:


> I'm listening to his second keyboard suite right now(Perahia). I don't know which suites I like more: French or English. They're both excellent.


----------



## shangoyal

A day you discover a new Bach piece is a good day. And for a new listener like me, that's almost every day...

Today, it's the Concerto for Harpsichord and 2 Recorders BWV 1057.


----------



## Katie

He wrote like pimp daddy
Flamboyant and bold
A drug king-pin,
Or cartel over-lord.

So why would convention
diminish his deeds
with tiny ensembles 
that whisper a breeze?

Then along came a German
With steel in his spine
And a Romantic Conception
Of the musik divine.

Wielding his baton
In historical remonstration
Wilhelm brought Bach
To full orchestration.

So if you should visit
Old St. John's in Leipzig,
You might just hear J.S.
doin' the Furtwangler jig...


----------



## Bulldog

Bas said:


> Gardiner is too "english", don't you think? Like if he is trying to make Bach some sort of Handel?


To me, Gardiner gives Bach the celebratory treatment compared to conductors who offer greater reverence.


----------



## Lunasong

A newly discovered letter suggests Johann Sebastian Bach severely neglected his duties in the years leading up to his death. Now scholars are asking: Was that due to burn-out, vision problems or clever time management?

Just before Christmas, researchers at the Bach Archive in Leipzig caused something of a sensation among music scholars. In municipal archives in the town of Döbeln, musicologist Michael Maul discovered an application letter from the year 1751, written just a year after Johann Sebastian Bach's death.

The letter's author is Gottfried Benjamin Fleckeisen, by then a former member of Leipzig's Saint Thomas Boy Choir, and, as such, a former pupil of Bach's. In it, Fleckeisen is applying for a position as cantor at a church in his hometown of Döbeln in the state of Saxony. He boasts that he "had to lead and conduct" musical performances at the Saint Thomas and Saint Nikolai churches in Leipzig for "two entire years" and "completed that service with honor."

What's known of Fleckeisen's biography makes it possible to assume he's referring in those lines to the years 1744 to 1746. However, from 1723 until his death in 1750, Johann Sebastian Bach was in charge of the church music in Leipzig.

More here


----------



## guy

The _Kunst der Fuge_ is heaven expressed in open score


----------



## Winterreisender

Hi Bach fans. Do any of you own the new(-ish) Gardiner box set of Bach Cantatas? If so, can you recommend it? http://www.amazon.co.uk/Bach-Cantatas-Complete-Box-Set/dp/B00ETHPJ1U/ref=pd_sim_m_h__2

I already have one complete recording (Pieter Jan Leusink on Brilliant) but I find it a little drab in places and am thinking of "upgrading." I have heard some excellent reviews of the Gardiner set, but £130 is quite a lot of money. Is it worth it? 

EDIT: Or is Helmuth Rilling a better option? http://www.amazon.co.uk/Complete-Ca...&qid=1391606729&sr=1-1&keywords=bach+cantatas


----------



## hpowders

Even Bach's secular compositions seem inspired by the glory of God. Listen to the chaconne for unaccompanied violin or the fugue from the C major unaccompanied violin sonata, the prelude and sarabande from the first keyboard partita, etc;


----------



## GioCar

Winterreisender said:


> Hi Bach fans. Do any of you own the new(-ish) Gardiner box set of Bach Cantatas? If so, can you recommend it? http://www.amazon.co.uk/Bach-Cantatas-Complete-Box-Set/dp/B00ETHPJ1U/ref=pd_sim_m_h__2
> 
> I already have one complete recording (Pieter Jan Leusink on Brilliant) but I find it a little drab in places and am thinking of "upgrading." I have heard some excellent reviews of the Gardiner set, but £130 is quite a lot of money. Is it worth it?
> 
> EDIT: Or is Helmuth Rilling a better option? http://www.amazon.co.uk/Complete-Ca...&qid=1391606729&sr=1-1&keywords=bach+cantatas


IMO Gardiner is outstanding, but not complete. For the price I'd go with Rilling (very good as well, if I'm not wrong he was the first one to complete the full cycle) or wait for the Suzuki box set.
Suzuki and his Bach Collegium Japan have just completed the cycle, their performance is overall the best for me but, at the moment, you can get only the separate CDs. Anyway I wouldn't surprised the box set to be available in a short time.


----------



## Itullian

I'm waiting for the Suzuki too.


----------



## Winterreisender

GioCar said:


> IMO Gardiner is outstanding, but not complete. For the price I'd go with Rilling (very good as well, if I'm not wrong he was the first one to complete the full cycle) or wait for the Suzuki box set.
> Suzuki and his Bach Collegium Japan have just completed the cycle, their performance is overall the best for me but, at the moment, you can get only the separate CDs. Anyway I wouldn't surprised the box set to be available in a short time.


Thanks. I'm not too fussed about absolute completeness. I know the secular ones are missing, but Leusink covers these rather well, I think. Having looked through the Gardiner set online, I have spotted seven missing ones (BWV 29, 106, 118, 119, 120, 157 and 193). In each case, it seems to be because the cantata was written for either a funeral or a Ratswechsel and therefore doesn't fit into the liturgical calendar.

I heard some reviews of Rilling saying his approach is a little too "Romantic." Not sure if that's true? Is Gardiner more "historically informed"? I lean towards Gardiner because I really like his other recordings (e.g. Handel). And I'm probably too impatient to wait for complete Suzuki!!


----------



## GioCar

^^^
Well, I think they are both "historically informed" for the time they recorded the Cantata cycle, so IMO both are great but Gardiner has a more transparent "sound" if compared with Rilling. 
I like very much his Handel as well. The Messiah recorded for Philips 30 (or so) years ago is still possibly my favourite.
For me Gardiner has almost no rivals in the articulation of the choral sections, and he has an outstanding "feeling" for the "right" tempos. That said, some of his Bach (i.e. the Mass in B min) is slighly less convincing to me. Re. the Cantatas, he did a great job indeed. From what I listened to, I like very much his clean but warm sound and articulations.
So if you cannot wait for Suzuki's pathos, and don't mind not having the complete cycle I'd say to go with him.


----------



## Itullian

Rilling uses modern instruments and has some odd balances on some of the recordings.
Nod definitely goes to Gardener between the two.


----------



## Bulldog

Gardiner, Suzuki and Herreweghe are great options. I have a few of the Rilling/Bach cantatas discs and listened to each a few times. After that, they just gathered dust on the shelf so I found a different home for them. Rilling's pretty good, but I have so much better on hand.


----------



## Winterreisender

I've done the deed... ordered Gardiner on Amazon 








Also bought this book from Alfred Dürr which contains all the texts as well as a nice write-up on each cantata. Not entirely how I can justify spending £50 on a paperback 








That should keep me busy for a while, anyway. I might try to listen to them all in the space of year, in order of liturgical function. And maybe I'll try Suzuki as well when it comes out. Thanks for the advice!


----------



## shangoyal

Winterreisender said:


> I've done the deed... ordered Gardiner on Amazon
> View attachment 34380
> 
> 
> Also bought this book from Alfred Dürr which contains all the texts as well as a nice write-up on each cantata. Not entirely how I can justify spending £50 on a paperback
> View attachment 34381
> 
> 
> That should keep me busy for a while, anyway. I might try to listen to them all in the space of year, in order of liturgical function. And maybe I'll try Suzuki as well when it comes out. Thanks for the advice!


That book sounds it's a bargain for 50 pounds!


----------



## Itullian

Winterreisender said:


> I've done the deed... ordered Gardiner on Amazon
> View attachment 34380
> 
> 
> Also bought this book from Alfred Dürr which contains all the texts as well as a nice write-up on each cantata. Not entirely how I can justify spending £50 on a paperback
> View attachment 34381
> 
> 
> That should keep me busy for a while, anyway. I might try to listen to them all in the space of year, in order of liturgical function. And maybe I'll try Suzuki as well when it comes out. Thanks for the advice!


Congratulations!!!
Great purchases.
Enjoy!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## Guest

Did any of the big names mentioned like Suzuki or Gardiner perhaps compile some sort of "best of" from their cantata sets? I only have Joshua Rifkin's 6 favorite cantatas, and it's kind of intimidating to think that I have to listen to the set or seemingly pick random cantatas after the very basics (80/140/147/etc).

I'm basically wondering if there's anything along the lines of what Scott Ross did with Scarlatti (a box set of 555 sonatas, and a selection of 19 of those sonatas).


----------



## Bulldog

arcaneholocaust said:


> Did any of the big names mentioned like Suzuki or Gardiner perhaps compile some sort of "best of" from their cantata sets? I only have Joshua Rifkin's 6 favorite cantatas, and it's kind of intimidating to think that I have to listen to the set or seemingly pick random cantatas after the very basics (80/140/147/etc).
> 
> I'm basically wondering if there's anything along the lines of what Scott Ross did with Scarlatti (a box set of 555 sonatas, and a selection of 19 of those sonatas).


Just wanted to mention that Rifkin's set is exceptional; you made a great choice.


----------



## Ravndal

I'm looking for a good version of Die Kunst Der Fuge for piano. Any recommendations? I like Sokolov's, but the sound qual is a bit boring.


----------



## Guest

Hey Ravndal, have you perhaps heard Tatiana Nikolayeva's recording?


----------



## Mandryka

Ravndal said:


> I'm looking for a good version of Die Kunst Der Fuge for piano. Any recommendations? I like Sokolov's, but the sound qual is a bit boring.


The two best I have heard are by Hans Petermandl and Walter Riemer.


----------



## Winterreisender

Any of you familiar with the complete Bach piano recordings by Ivo Janssen? If so, what do you reckon? 








Generally I prefer Bach on the harpsichord, but I would be particularly interested in buying this for the obscurer works in order to fill in the gaps in my collection. £49 is surely a bargain.


----------



## hpowders

An anachronism.


----------



## Muse Wanderer

Ravndal said:


> I'm looking for a good version of Die Kunst Der Fuge for piano. Any recommendations? I like Sokolov's, but the sound qual is a bit boring.


I heartily recommend Evgeni Koroliov's rendition of 'The Art of Fugue'.

The clarity of the voices and his technique is simply superb.


----------



## Blake

Winterreisender said:


> Any of you familiar with the complete Bach piano recordings by Ivo Janssen? If so, what do you reckon?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Generally I prefer Bach on the harpsichord, but I would be particularly interested in buying this for the obscurer works in order to fill in the gaps in my collection. £49 is surely a bargain.


I'm particularly fond of Schiff and Perahia. Heard great things about Hewit, as well. Haven't heard of Janssen. I don't understand some of these 'purists' who think Bach should only be played on harpsichord. It's a great restriction on such massive works of genius. Part of his greatness is that his music transcends its era. And I think Bach would be the first to want to hear his works on the piano.


----------



## Bulldog

Vesuvius said:


> I'm particularly fond of Schiff and Perahia. Heard great things about Hewit, as well. Haven't heard of Janssen. I don't understand some of these 'purists' who think Bach should only be played on harpsichord. It's a great restriction on such massive works of genius. Part of his greatness is that his music transcends its era. And I think Bach would be the first to want to hear his works on the piano.


Folks whose Bach preferences I highly respect give the "piano" nod to Janssen; I've not heard him. As for Hewitt, she's pretty good for a Bach pianist; Perahia is not. When I do want to listen to some Perahia, I go directly to Mozart.

Concerning how Bach would want to hear his music, I think it's a waste of thought to speculate on the matter. I know of very few individuals who think that Bach should only be played on harpsichord; most simply prefer the harpsichord for their own listening pleasure and enlightenment.


----------



## Blake

Bulldog said:


> Folks whose Bach preferences I highly respect give the "piano" nod to Janssen; I've not heard him. As for Hewitt, she's pretty good for a Bach pianist; Perahia is not. When I do want to listen to some Perahia, I go directly to Mozart.
> 
> Concerning how Bach would want to hear his music, I think it's a waste of thought to speculate on the matter. I know of very few individuals who think that Bach should only be played on harpsichord; most simply prefer the harpsichord for their own listening pleasure and enlightenment.


I think Perahia's Bach is excellent, and I've heard many respectable folks give him his due credit. But I'm glad you love your opinions enough to state them as facts... Recently I've grazed a few 'old-fashionist' who think period style is the only way to play Bach. So it's still playing in my head, which is why I thought it worth a mention. And as I've said, I think it's an absurd limitation on works that so obviously transcend its time... I also disagree that most simply prefer the harpsichord over the piano. Apparently we're in contact with very different people.

I don't know if it's such a drastic speculation to think that a genius of Bach's caliber would be open to the piano. The instrument is simply the current evolution of the keyboard. It actually seems kind of silly to think otherwise. If it's not apparent by his music, his mind wasn't stagnate and dull. I'm sure he was well aware of the change and evolution of life.


----------



## hpowders

Except for one thing, to many of us Bach sounds better on the harpsichord than on the piano. :tiphat:

Different fingerings for different lingerings?


----------



## Blake

I think Bach sounds wonderful on the harpsichord. Matter of fact, I'm listening to Pinnock's take on the Partitas right now. I was just saying that we shouldn't restrict such magnificent works of art to one instrument... even though the piano is also a keyboard. Not like I'm arguing for an electric guitar here, even though I'd still be open to here it. His works are so much more than pretty pieces for a single instrument. 

I love hearing all the different chamber arrangements, etc... Hell, Bach rearranged pieces himself.


----------



## Winterreisender

Although Christophe Rousset on harpsichord is my trusty go-to performer for Bach, I did purchase the Ivo Janssen set as it seems to be the most complete of all complete editions out there. It was interesting then to hear the miscellaneous preludes and fugues, toccatas, fantasies, suites and other odds and sods that aren't usually performed. In fact the Vivaldi transcriptions were a particular highlight, a work I had never really bothered with before. My experience of Janssen has been entirely positive: good clear sound, well-chosen tempos, appropriate amount of ornamentation, etc.


----------



## Muse Wanderer

I almost know most of Bach's keyboard works by memory after listening with an OCD like manner to so many piano interpreters. It is so addictive I get withdrawals at times and Gould is always at hand on my portable player to shake off the jitters!

I am now rediscovering all of Bach's keyboard works by enthusiastically listening to the harpsichord. 

It is a refreshing sound I agree, and an alternative to the piano, which by no means can it replace. 

We should all enjoy the diversity of these instruments which give us different takes of these genial works. 

Bach himself was introduced and tried the earliest pianos late in his life but was not keen to use them. These were only shadows of the later incarnations and could not compete with the highly evolved harpsichord, clavichord or organ. 

As much as I enjoy period performances of Bach's works, his music is so profound that it should never be limited to the instruments of his time. 

Just let our creativity and inventiveness mould the gift Sebastian gave us for posterity.


----------



## Bulldog

Vesuvius said:


> I think Bach sounds wonderful on the harpsichord. Matter of fact, I'm listening to Pinnock's take on the Partitas right now. I was just saying that we shouldn't restrict such magnificent works of art to one instrument... even though the piano is also a keyboard. Not like I'm arguing for an electric guitar here, even though I'd still be open to here it. His works are so much more than pretty pieces for a single instrument.
> 
> I love hearing all the different chamber arrangements, etc... Hell, Bach rearranged pieces himself.


I respect your take on this. My personal view is to give any and all instrumentation choices a decent hearing, and I have done that over the years. Concerning keyboard choices, my favorite is the harpsichord. Piano is fine with me, and Tureck just might be my favored Bach keyboardist. The only keyboard type I'm not keen on is the clavichord - too gentle for my tastes.

By the way, I wasn't indicating that Perahia is a poor objective choice. The only fact here is that I don't care much for his Bach; for me, it's too much of Perahia playing Perahia.


----------



## Bulldog

Vesuvius said:


> I think Perahia's Bach is excellent, and I've heard many respectable folks give him his due credit. But I'm glad you love your opinions enough to state them as facts... Recently I've grazed a few 'old-fashionist' who think period style is the only way to play Bach. So it's still playing in my head, which is why I thought it worth a mention. And as I've said, I think it's an absurd limitation on works that so obviously transcend its time... I also disagree that most simply prefer the harpsichord over the piano. Apparently we're in contact with very different people.


I try my best to stay away from people with extremist views, and a person who feels that all of us should listen to Bach a certain way is certainly extremist.


----------



## Blake

Bulldog said:


> I try my best to stay away from people with extremist views, and a person who feels that all of us should listen to Bach a certain way is certainly extremist.


Very well

..............


----------



## hpowders

Nobody's saying that. I prefer the harpsichord. Listen to Bach on the banjo if you wish. I'll still sleep _soundly_ tonight. (pun intended).


----------



## Blake

Bulldog said:


> I respect your take on this. My personal view is to give any and all instrumentation choices a decent hearing, and I have done that over the years. Concerning keyboard choices, my favorite is the harpsichord. Piano is fine with me, and Tureck just might be my favored Bach keyboardist. The only keyboard type I'm not keen on is the clavichord - too gentle for my tastes.
> 
> By the way, I wasn't indicating that Perahia is a poor objective choice. The only fact here is that I don't care much for his Bach; for me, it's too much of Perahia playing Perahia.


I hear you. Funny you mention, I was actually looking at picking up some clavichord performances, as I've heard it was Bach's favorite instrument... not sure how true that is, but I've heard it several times. Haven't found a recording to strike a chord with me yet though.


----------



## Guest

So what's a revered recording of the WTC on harpsichord? I've been thinking it would eventually become pretty essential to hear THAT work at least. I mean, I have period recordings of concertos, sonatas, etc...but I'm not sure if I've ever heard the English Suites, French Suites, Partitas, Toccatas, Goldbergs, etc. on anything but piano...


----------



## dgee

hpowders said:


> Nobody's saying that. I prefer the harpsichord. Listen to Bach on the banjo if you wish. I'll still sleep _soundly_ tonight. (pun intended).


Not quite banjo but Chris Thile's mandolin Bach recordings have been getting a lot attention. A live snippet - not bad for a bluegrasser (I'm sure the tiny slip can be forgiven):


----------



## hpowders

dgee said:


> Not quite banjo but Chris Thile's mandolin Bach recordings have been getting a lot attention. A live snippet - not bad for a bluegrasser (I'm sure the tiny slip can be forgiven):


Thanks for that! That's a transcription from the first solo violin sonata. I do prefer Bach keyboard works on harpsichord, but if it takes a mandolin, piano, accordion, rock band, or whatever, to get someone to listen to this marvelous music, then I say, do it!!


----------



## Bulldog

arcaneholocaust said:


> So what's a revered recording of the WTC on harpsichord?


I'm partial to Leonhardt, Scott Ross, Glen Wilson, van Asperen, Watchorn, Gilbert and Belder. Think I'll play the Belder right now.


----------



## hpowders

Leonhardt trumps them all.


----------



## hpowders

I have a recording of WTC on clavichord and I could barely hear the performer. The clavichord could work in a very intimate room of say 3 rows of seats.


----------



## Alypius

arcaneholocaust said:


> So what's a revered recording of the WTC on harpsichord? ...


I have Peter Watchorn. It's quite well done. A friend strongly recommended a new release by Christophe Rousset (_Das Wohltemperierte_(Aparte, 2013). I've been listening to it on Spotify and it's jumped to the top of my wishlist. I'm impressed. The quality of the recording is pretty astonishing -- as is the performance. One unusual thing: He starts with Book II and has not released Book I yet.

















Several reviews:



> "He combines virtuoso technique and sharp intellect, underscoring the extremes of freedom and rigour that lie at the heart of these works, and the playing is by turns pliant, controlled, spartan, ornate...Rousset's instrument of choice is the noble 1628 Ruckers double-manual harpsichord of the Palace of Versailles, its sound as glimmering and mature as a vintage claret." _BBC Music Magazine_, February 2014 ****





> "Rousset's harpsichord, a 1628 Ruckers ravelement, is an equal collaborator (enjoy particularly its bell-like sonorities in G major or the slightly astringent sound of the theme in the F sharp minor fugue)...He is one of the finest harpsichordists working today and these readings, while never pedantic or ponderous, feel fully studied and assimilated." _Gramophone Magazine_, March 2014





> "Rousset has something special to offer here -a gorgeous Ruckers instrument of 1628 which has an ideal resonance and crispness. He understands perfectly how to use overlapping notes and phrases to create an expressiveness you might not suspect possible...a world of inspiration." _The Observer_, 26th January 2014 ****


----------



## fairbanks

My best friend had me listen to Bach's harpsichord concerto number 1....and I was a instantly in love.


----------



## hpowders

J.S. Bach, Keyboard Partitas
Benjamin Alard, harpsichord

Fine second tier performances. The problem is Alard shows little imagination in ornamenting repeats and he takes all of them, so one is listening to each section of every partita twice with little variance, so a bit of tedium tends to set in.

My favorite performance is by harpsichordist Trevor Pinnock on Hanssler. Great playing and wonderfully imaginative ornamentation in the repeats.


----------



## Ravndal

Anyone know of a recording of die kunst der fuge arranged for string orchestra? Those ive found is not on spotify


----------



## Blancrocher

Ravndal said:


> Anyone know of a recording of die kunst der fuge arranged for string orchestra? Those ive found is not on spotify


You can hear Achim Fiedler with the Lucerne Festival Strings play selections of the Art of Fugue on spotify. I can't find a complete version.


----------



## Blake

This is really a splendid arrangement of the trio sonatas.


----------



## Xenol

The only composer who could write a fugue I could listen to (please don't mention Beethoven's monstrosity  )


----------



## hpowders

My favorite Bach fugue is the one from the unaccompanied violin sonata #3 in C. Milstein plays it wonderfully in his DGG set.


----------



## Ravndal

Blancrocher said:


> You can hear Achim Fiedler with the Lucerne Festival Strings play selections of the Art of Fugue on spotify. I can't find a complete version.
> 
> View attachment 51294


Thats the only one i found as well. We listened to a version in class the other day, but sadly it is not on spotify. Think it was the liszt chamber orchestra.


----------



## hpowders

Sad day. Christopher Hogwood died.


----------



## hpowders

If you want to hear a beautiful performance of the six keyboard partitas, check out Kenneth Weiss on harpsichord.


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## Guest

Ik realy like the sound of the harpsichord and it is a pity that older recordings does not sound well.I have das 
Wohltemperierte klavier played by Gustav Leonhardt. The first book is not bad but the second book has an older recording and the sound is thin and sharp.There is a sacd version on the marked and they say that it sounds much better.Does anyone here have experience with that.The sacd is from Japan.[video]http://www.sa-cd.net/showtitle/5696[/video]


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## hpowders

The Gustav Leonhardt is my favorite performance of WTC Book One.


----------



## Guest

My question is,is it wise to buy the sacd set.I have already das wohltemperierte with Leonhardt.Does the sacd sound significant better.


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## hpowders

Wish I could help, but I have the old set and the sound is fine. It's a fairly old recording and usually when they tamper with the sound to artificially "help" older recordings sound "better", many times it has the opposite effect.


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## Guest

Book 1 sounds good to me but book 2 is an older recording and you have to adjust for awhile.It is a marvelous piece of music and for me there is no better interpretation than with Gustav leonhardt.I have also the first ring with Solti and some people claim that the new japanese remastering is much better.I discovered this forum when I was looking for information . I was reading that topic and " bigshot" was an eyeopener for me in this matter.:tiphat:


----------



## Vaneyes

Mrs. Bach wrote some of his finest works?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/...53/Did-Bachs-wife-write-his-finest-works.html


----------



## Blancrocher

Vaneyes said:


> Mrs. Bach wrote some of his finest works?
> 
> http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/...53/Did-Bachs-wife-write-his-finest-works.html





> While Anna is known to have transcribed for Bach in his later years, researchers found the handwriting did not have the "slowness or heaviness" usually attributed to someone who is merely copying, but was likely to have flowed from her own mind.
> 
> They also pointed to numerous corrections to scores written in her hand, signalling she is likely to have been composing it as she went along.


Good enough for me.


----------



## tdc

Vaneyes said:


> Mrs. Bach wrote some of his finest works?
> 
> http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/...53/Did-Bachs-wife-write-his-finest-works.html


^ Nothing is beyond the realm of possibility, but it stretches credulity to think that Bach's wife happened to be (arguably) the only person in history other than Bach himself who could compose the same quality of masterworks. The chances of something like that occurring seem pretty astronomical. The Cello Suites are some of Bach's finest works - they _are_ somewhat unique, but undoubtedly composed in his inimitable style. Which is why I could see the possibility that she _influenced_ these works in some way, but there isn't close to enough evidence to assert she was the sole composer. Perhaps if she was close to Bach throughout his life one could make the argument she was composing _all_ of his works, but since this is demonstrably untrue, the most logical scenario is that she wasn't composing any of his major works.


----------



## hpowders

Yo-Yo Ma's second go at the Bach Cello Suites is better than I expected.

Terrific!


----------



## Bluecrab

Apologies for being several days late in posting this, but every holiday season Columbia University radio station WKCR-FM hosts what it calls the Bach Festival. It features nothing but Bach's music, 24 hours a day. This year's festival started a couple of days before Christmas and will continue uninterrupted until midnight on New Year's Eve. If you're within 50-or-so miles of Columbia's Manhattan campus, you can listen at 89.9 FM. If not, you can listen for free online. Just go to this website and click on the flashing "Live Broadcast" link in the upper right.

http://www.studentaffairs.columbia.edu/wkcr/

Happy Listening. They spent most of this morning playing the cello suites.


----------



## hpowders

If you only know Trevor Pinnock from his conducting, he is also one of the greatest of harpsichordists as these performances of the Back Keyboard Partitas demonstrate.


----------



## Jobis

Vaneyes said:


> Mrs. Bach wrote some of his finest works?
> 
> http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/...53/Did-Bachs-wife-write-his-finest-works.html


Just no. Nothing more than wishful thinking. I'm sure she could have composed decently had she tried (Bach was a good teacher) but attributing his works to her is naive beyond belief. That or academically dishonest (which seems more likely).

I don't know why feminists are so insecure that they have to invent female achievements instead of celebrating the stuff that actually is true.

For the record I am all for exposing whitewashing (and the gender equivalent) of history for what it is, but to turn the tables and spread falsehoods in favour of women is just as bad, even if it done with good intentions.


----------



## Haydninplainsight

I'm living in Leipzig, the city where Bach produced a large bulk of his works, this year and I'm loving the opportunity to visit some of the places where he lived and worked. The Thomaskirche here in particular is worth visiting. At their services every Sunday the mass is opened and closed with pieces played on an organ built to JSs own specifications (unfortunately not the same organ as he played himself) and the experience is pretty breathtaking.


----------



## hpowders

That's nice. Wish I could do that. Or even Vienna where a lot of musical giants walked.


----------



## SiegendesLicht

I know Bach's organ music and organ performances of pieces like Goldberg Variations and die Kunst der Fuge, I know his cantatas, St. Matthew's Passion and Johannes-Passion. Now I would like to get deeper into his instrumental music (apart from the organ). What should I start with?


----------



## Itullian

SiegendesLicht said:


> I know Bach's organ music and organ performances of pieces like Goldberg Variations and die Kunst der Fuge, I know his cantatas, St. Matthew's Passion and Johannes-Passion. Now I would like to get deeper into his instrumental music (apart from the organ). What should I start with?


Brandenburgs, Violin sonatas/partitas, cello suites, Orchestral Suites, Violin concertos


----------



## SiegendesLicht

Haydninplainsight said:


> I'm living in Leipzig, the city where Bach produced a large bulk of his works, this year and I'm loving the opportunity to visit some of the places where he lived and worked. The Thomaskirche here in particular is worth visiting. At their services every Sunday the mass is opened and closed with pieces played on an organ built to JSs own specifications (unfortunately not the same organ as he played himself) and the experience is pretty breathtaking.


I have been in Leipzig and in the Thomaskirche once too, although I came there following in the footsteps of another master who was born in that city in the year of 1813 (and who admired Bach as well). I agree, it is definitely wort visiting, even though the city still bears the marks of having been under Soviet rule for over 40 years.


----------



## Bulldog

Jobis said:


> Just no. Nothing more than wishful thinking. I'm sure she could have composed decently had she tried (Bach was a good teacher) but attributing his works to her is naive beyond belief. That or academically dishonest (which seems more likely).
> 
> I don't know why feminists are so insecure that they have to invent female achievements instead of celebrating the stuff that actually is true.
> 
> For the record I am all for exposing whitewashing (and the gender equivalent) of history for what it is, but to turn the tables and spread falsehoods in favour of women is just as bad, even if it done with good intentions.


An agenda is written all over that Telegraph article. When so-called scientific research is loaded with an agenda, the result is garbage.

That research is a good example of why "regular" folks do not trust intellectuals, researchers and authority figures.


----------



## KenOC

SiegendesLicht said:


> I have been in Leipzig and in the Thomaskirche once too, although I came there following in the footsteps of another master who was born in that city in the year of 1813...


Uh...Verdi was born in an entirely different country.


----------



## SiegendesLicht

Did Verdi admire Bach?


----------



## KenOC

SiegendesLicht said:


> Did Verdi admire Bach?


Actually I don't know. Well, he must have, being an intelligent person and all. Knowing a bit about music couldn't have hurt either.


----------



## Giordano

SiegendesLicht said:


> I know Bach's organ music and organ performances of pieces like Goldberg Variations and die Kunst der Fuge, I know his cantatas, St. Matthew's Passion and Johannes-Passion. Now I would like to get deeper into his instrumental music (apart from the organ). What should I start with?


To start off, you may want to hear the Goldberg Variations on instruments other than the organ:

Harpsichord









Piano









Viol Consort


----------



## hpowders

Isn't it enough around here that I admire Bach?


----------



## Giordano

SiegendesLicht said:


> I know Bach's organ music and organ performances of pieces like Goldberg Variations and die Kunst der Fuge, I know his cantatas, St. Matthew's Passion and Johannes-Passion. Now I would like to get deeper into his instrumental music (apart from the organ). What should I start with?


----------



## Mandryka

SiegendesLicht said:


> I know Bach's organ music and organ performances of pieces like Goldberg Variations and die Kunst der Fuge, I know his cantatas, St. Matthew's Passion and Johannes-Passion. Now I would like to get deeper into his instrumental music (apart from the organ). What should I start with?


Which organ performance of the Goldberg Variations have you heard?

I would start with the trio sonatas, there's an outstanding recording by Robert King and one by London Baroque. Another thing which I really like is the Gamba Sonatas, if you want me to think about recorded performances let me know.


----------



## SiegendesLicht

^ The one made by Hansjörg Albrecht.


----------



## Mandryka

SiegendesLicht said:


> ^ The one made by Hansjörg Albrecht.


Yes I've never heard his Goldbergs but I have heard the partitas, and I found them really quite revealing, the dissonances. Ultimately I prefer the fast action of the harpsichord though in that music. I'll check the Goldbergs sometime.

Do you know the partitas in Clavier Uebung 1? If not you're missing some great music.


----------



## Mandryka

SiegendesLicht said:


> ^ The one made by Hansjörg Albrecht.


Yes I've never heard his Goldbergs but I have heard the partitas, and I found them really quite revealing, the dissonances. I'll check the Goldbergs sometime.

Do you know the partitas in Clavier Uebung 1? If not you're missing some great music.

By the way, since you're the sort of person who listens to Albrich's Goldbergs, can I suggest you try Ludger Remy's Cello Suites, and Gustav Leonhardt's Violin partitas.


----------



## Aleksandar

I've been listening nothing but classical music for about 6 months now and I come to realise that not a week goes by without playing something by Bach. So much great stuff to choose from. His music sort of creeps up on you until you slowly realise he is your favourite composer.


----------



## gardibolt

This new Mass in B minor looks interesting:

http://www.carus-verlag.com/8331500.en.html?TC=PNL1506

I'm always a sucker for these variant editions.


----------



## Avey

I have always appreciate Bach's music. I have attended every one of his performances that are local and in my vicinity. I enjoy it all. The stuff just sounds great, obviously.

But never have I actually _understood_ and been internally _impressed_ by a piece -- for however you take the verbage -- until I heard his *Violin Concerto in E*. The sounds make me happy. They comfort me and make me feel like someone knew precisely what they penned onto staves. That is madness, truly! The ineffably ordered *notes*, *counterpoint*, *melody*, *harm--*

Whatever! I am stating the obvious. Moving on....


----------



## Ravndal

I have always loved Gould as the no 1 bach performer, but i must say.. Rosalyn Tureck is my new no1. What a great musician..


----------



## DavidA

I remember attending a concert of Bach's musc given by the late George Malcolm in a cathedral on a very foggy night. The concert was late starting as the orchestra got lost in the fog and we sat in the freezing cold listening to JSB. Dedication!


----------



## Guest

Aleksandar said:


> I've been listening nothing but classical music for about 6 months now and I come to realise that not a week goes by without playing something by Bach. So much great stuff to choose from. His music sort of creeps up on you until you slowly realise he is your favourite composer.


I beg to differ. I knew he was my favorite composer the first time I heard him.


----------



## WhoseLineFan

This is my favorite piece by Bach.


----------



## Bluecrab

*WKCR FM Bach Festival - begins December 22*

For all of my fellow Bach lovers... Columbia University's radio station, WKCR FM, begins its annual Bach Festival on Tuesday, December 22. It runs until midnight on New Year's Eve. Nothing but the music of JS Bach, 24 hours a day.









You can stream it for free from this link:

http://www.studentaffairs.columbia.edu/wkcr/

Happy listening. It's always enjoyable.


----------



## HaydnBearstheClock

Been discovering Bach's St. John Passion and his Cantatas. All very strong works. Should probably turn to the Christmas Oratorio today or tomorrow .


----------



## Doulton

Katie, I really loved reading this. Did you write it? What a fine poem.


----------



## Doulton

I want to buy a book about Bach. What do you all recommend? I know that there are quite a few out there.


----------



## Abraham Lincoln

Doulton said:


> I want to buy a book about Bach. What do you all recommend? I know that there are quite a few out there.


Gardiner's Bach biography, of course!


----------



## Winterreisender

What is the most comprehensive recording available of Bach's 'miscellaneous keyboard works,' by which I am referring to the shorter pieces e.g. suites, sonatas, preludes, fugues, dance movements, etc. I have Ivo Janssen's piano box set, but that contains many omissions.

Also, does anyone know of any listenable complete recordings of Schemelli Gesangbuch? 

As you can see I'm trying to iron out all gaps in my Bach collection.


----------



## premont

The three "complete" Bach boxes which were released in the Bach year 2000 by Teldec, Haenssler and Brilliant Classics respectively contain most of his surviving output (I do not include attributions). Among these the Haenssler is - from the top of my head - the most comprehensive.


----------



## Winterreisender

premont said:


> The three "complete" Bach boxes which were released in the Bach year 2000 by Teldec, Haenssler and Brilliant Classics respectively contain most of his surviving output (I do not include attributions). Among these the Haenssler is - from the top of my head - the most comprehensive.


Any idea if complete track listings are available for these boxes?

EDIT: Ok found the Haenssler one myself. http://goodwinshighend.com/music/cl...COMPLETE_BACH_WORKS_Vol._142_BWV_CD_INDEX.pdf

EDIT: And here is Teldec http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/album.jsp?album_id=706494


----------



## premont

The Teldec Bach 2000 edition:

http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/album.jsp?album_id=706494

Takes some time do download.


----------



## premont

And here you may find the content of the Brilliant box:

https://wiki.musicbrainz.org/Series/Bach_Edition_(Brilliant_Classics)


----------



## Winterreisender

I see that the Haenssler edition has mixed up the chorale settings with the Schemelli Gesangbuch over 8 discs (to make them both more bearable I guess).

In the keyboard repertoire, Haenssler contains only the following omissions: BWV 834, 835, 838, 844, 845, 897, 898, 909, 920, 958, 960, 962, 969, 970 and in each case it is because they claim the piece is not by Bach. Teldec contains almost twice as many omissions, some for no apparent reason. 

I guess Haenssler is more suitable for me, given that I'd only be buying a complete edition to fill in the gaps in my collection.


----------



## Oliver

WhoseLineFan said:


> This is my favorite piece by Bach.


I'm guessing you haven't listened to much Bach. The most popular pieces usually aren't the best.


----------



## violadude

Oliver said:


> I'm guessing you haven't listened to much Bach. The most popular pieces usually aren't the best.


Unlike some composers, most of Bach's more popular pieces are still pretty damn good still.


----------



## KenOC

violadude said:


> Unlike some composers, most of Bach's more popular pieces are still pretty damn good still.


I'm struggling to identify which of Bach's more popular works isn't among the best -- ever.


----------



## Pugg

How many topic's on Bach are there?


----------



## Abraham Lincoln

WhoseLineFan said:


> This is my favorite piece by Bach.


----------



## Muse Wanderer

The attached video may be of interest to Bach afficionados.

The C minor fugue of WTC book II is dissected in all its glory.

Bach's voicing of fugues is remarked as using universal constants compared to planetary motion in cosmology.

As I recall planetary physics from my yesteryears, I see a correlation between the fundamentals of music theory, which I understand little, and gravitational theory.

The ratio 2:3, or phi, is omnipresent in nature including biology, chemistry and physics. The musical analogy of V-I is obvious. Bach remarkable ability to voice his fugues is astonishing even after so many years of listening to him. Of note is his influence on Mozart and Beethoven who carried the light of discovery further for our enlightenment.


----------



## hpowders

Yes. The Book Two WTC preludes and fugues, from Book Two, is my favorite music.

Too bad he didn't live to produce a Book Three!


----------



## PJaye

My favorite J.S Bach work for some time has been the_ sonata's for violin and harpsichord BMV 1014-1019_. For me it has wonderfully illustrative and essential examples of Bach's music, his use of counterpoint, as well as some very new and interesting directions in the soulful slow pieces. Since coming on this forum, I've taken more notice of a lot of other people's likes and such. I've been surprised to not find this listed very often as a favorite Bach work here and elsewhere. Maybe it sometimes gets overlooked for more popularly performed pieces, or maybe I haven't read enough lists. So -although Bach already gets plenty of love and attention- I thought I'd put in a word for this one. Maybe someone is looking for something to put on now, or sometime later. It was said that Bach returned to this work often, adding to and fine tuning it.


----------



## Rik1

Currently one of my favourite Bach works is this violin concert reconstruction:






And this sinfonia:


----------



## Abraham Lincoln

Happy birthday to our dear Cécile Jeanrenaud Mendelssohn-Bartholdy...er I mean Johann Sebastian Bach. :'P


----------



## ldiat




----------



## jpar3

If JSB had written only the e major preludio opening the 3rd violin partita he would be my fave. Or if he he written only the Goldbergs, or the St Matthew Passion, or the D minor Toccata and Fugue. Utterly wonderful stuff. Or the incredible Chaconne for solo violin.


----------



## jpar3

If JSB had written only the e major preludio opening the 3rd violin partita he would be my fave. Or if he he written only the Goldbergs, or the St Matthew Passion, or the D minor Toccata and Fugue. Utterly wonderful stuff.


----------



## Bellinilover

Being an opera-lover I came to Bach a embarrassingly late, but "Air on the G String" and the Allegro of the _Brandenburg Concerto #5_ immediately became favorites of mine. The organist at my (Presbyterian) church plays a lot of Bach, which led me to purchase the Peter Hurford recording of his organ music.

My brother is a Baroque violinist and _idolizes_ Bach. He even has a framed picture of Bach above his bed.


----------



## Bellinilover

Oliver said:


> I'm guessing you haven't listened to much Bach. The most popular pieces usually aren't the best.


Not necessarily -- I was new to Bach and loved this piece at first hearing.


----------



## Bellinilover

World Violist said:


> You all knew it would happen eventually: the most superfluous thread ever made for this board. The greatest contrapuntal genius of all time. I've heard it said that, while among the _public_ there are Mahler cults, Sibelius cults, and Brahms cults, there is among the _composers_ a Bach cult. Not to say there isn't a Bach cult among the public, it's just that the great composers all worshiped the guy. It is genuinely worthless to try singling out some of his greatest pieces; if you pick out about any five of the more than one thousand published works, I will guarantee that at least three, if not all, will be masterpieces.
> 
> Although *cough, cough* the B minor Mass _is_ considered to be the greatest and most perfect composition ever written in history, not to mention the Art of Fugue, Goldberg Variations, several hundred choral works, preludes, solo violin sonatas, solo cello suites, violin concerti, transcriptions of other peoples' work, harpsichord concerti, Well-Tempered Clavier....


What is a good recording of the _B Minor Mass_?


----------



## hpowders

John Eliot Gardiner.

Karl Richter.


----------



## Bulldog

Bellinilover said:


> What is a good recording of the _B Minor Mass_?


I'm partial to the Gustav Leonhardt set on DHM. Among its many virtues, the choral contributions and the fantastic singing of Isabelle Poulenard top the list.


----------



## premont

Yes, Leonhardt is a good choice. 

My favorites are Hengelbrock (also DHM - can be purchased rather cheap)
and Herreweghe's second recording (Harmonia Mundi).
Both are intimate and expressive. I prefer this to the more celebratory versions.


----------



## hpowders

Bellinilover said:


> What is a good recording of the _B Minor Mass_?


Gardiner, for a HIP approach. Fine performance, but must defer to:

Karl Richter, for a mainstream approach with magnificent soloists, instrumentalists and conducting. This is my favorite performance of the B minor mass.


----------



## Pugg

Bellinilover said:


> What is a good recording of the _B Minor Mass_?


The old Karajan on Emi Reference.
Extra bonus: Ferrier in rehearsal , she never made the actual recording .


----------



## Mandryka

Bellinilover said:


> What is a good recording of the _B Minor Mass_?


I like Harnoncourt 1986


----------



## Rik1

Bellinilover said:


> What is a good recording of the _B Minor Mass_?


By far my favourite is the Freiburg Baroque orchestra recording under Thomas Hengelbrock. The balance of singing to orchestra is perfect, there is some drama here. But curiously, although period instrument groups tend to take the Kyrie fairly fast here they take it much slower but still with a sense of movement and sombre dance and the usual HIP transparency. It is incredibly powerful and Ive not heard anything like it in any other recording. The final movement of the Gloria has just the right amount of speed and lightness to be really exciting without going over board. I believe the recording is based on their performance of the work involving acting direction on stage which possibly explains why all of the involved singers and instrumentalists sound like they know the music intimately and are working together as a unit. It makes for a very convincing rendition.


----------



## ArtMusic

^ The Freiburg also has a fine recording of the Brandenburgs.


----------



## Abraham Lincoln

Bellinilover said:


> My brother is a Baroque violinist and _idolizes_ Bach. He even has a framed picture of Bach above his bed.


So Bach watches him sleep? Yikes.


----------



## Abraham Lincoln

This was supposed to be a drawing of Felix Mendelssohn's wife, Cécile, except...not. She's Bach now, albeit in the form of a pretty girl.


----------



## Xenakiboy

Re-post:

This man's chamber music really hits me hard. The Organ music (Art Of Fugue, plus the many other fugues), The Violin Partitas, The Sonatas, Chamber concertos, cello suites, then also the St Matthew Passion. This music to me has a delicate atmospheric quality, mainly only comparable to 20th century composers such as Webern, Messiaen, Schittke and Gubaidulina.
:tiphat:


----------



## Pugg

Xenakiboy said:


> Re-post:
> 
> This man's chamber music really his me hard. The Organ music (Art Of Fugue, plus the many other fugues), The Violin Partitas, The Sonatas, Chamber concertos, cello suites, then also the St Matthew Passion. This music to me has a atmospheric quality, mainly only comparable to 20th century composers such as Webern, Messiaen, Schittke and Gubaidulina.
> :tiphat:


I was just about to guide you to this thread, so we don't really need two do we?


----------



## Lukecash12

Quodlibet said:


> Before idolizing the Great Man, one should read Theodor W. Adorno's equally famous essay, "Bach Defended Against His Devotees."


That and a perfect companion for it is Albert Schweitzer's seminal works: _J.S. Bach: Le Musicien-Poète_, and it's rewritten version, _J.S. Bach_.


----------



## Guest

I posted this first in another thread but no reaction.I am a bit disappointed that no one seems interested.I hope that posting it again will make a difference.

Today is a Lucky day,a very Lucky day.I have found recordings from the Bach cantatas and they give 
me so much joy that I want to buy them all.I have allready three sets,Harnoncourt / Leonhardt wich I still enjoy,Ton Koopman and Suzuki.Suzuki is so beautiful played and sung but there was allways a reservation ,it was to smooth,to polished,there was something missing.I have found the missing piece.Playing and singing is bewildering .Everthing sounds so free and full of energy and above all full of joy and in the instrumental part I hear so much virtuosity wich must come from more than just skill.Yes this is a happy day.I saw a video of the ensemble on this forum and I was lost in the most pleasing way possible.Thank you Fletcher and thanks to the forum wich make it possible In the link you can read what I'm talking about.

http://www.musicweb-international.co...foundation.htm

http://www.bachstiftung.com/choir-orchestra.html

http://www.bachstiftung.com/conductor.html


----------



## Pugg

Traverso said:


> I posted this first in another thread but no reaction.I am a bit disappointed that no one seems interested.I hope that posting it again will make a difference.
> 
> Today is a Lucky day,a very Lucky day.I have found recordings from the Bach cantatas and they give
> me so much joy that I want to buy them all.I have allready three sets,Harnoncourt / Leonhardt wich I still enjoy,Ton Koopman and Suzuki.Suzuki is so beautiful played and sung but there was allways a reservation ,it was to smooth,to polished,there was something missing.I have found the missing piece.Playing and singing is bewildering .Everthing sounds so free and full of energy and above all full of joy and in the instrumental part I hear so much virtuosity wich must come from more than just skill.Yes this is a happy day.I saw a video of the ensemble on this forum and I was lost in the most pleasing way possible.Thank you Fletcher and thanks to the forum wich make it possible In the link you can read what I'm talking about.
> 
> http://www.musicweb-international.co...foundation.htm
> 
> http://www.bachstiftung.com/choir-orchestra.html
> 
> http://www.bachstiftung.com/conductor.html


If every day here, we find just one new thing that will makes music life better / richer.


----------



## Johnnie Burgess

Aleksandar said:


> I've been listening nothing but classical music for about 6 months now and I come to realise that not a week goes by without playing something by Bach. So much great stuff to choose from. His music sort of creeps up on you until you slowly realise he is your favourite composer.


Yes it can. He wrote a lot of great music.


----------



## jrp4truth

Which pieces of music by Bach are defined by the following chord progression?

Here is the specific chord progression: 

I vi ii V I IV II V vi vi ii III7 vi IV V I 

If there is no exact match, then which pieces have a close match of this chord progression? 

Thank you!


----------



## Intrusted

All I can say is that I am a huge fan of Bach. Love studying his work.


----------



## Armanvd

Recently I Fell In Love With Bach's Brandenburg Concertos.
























I've Listened To These Recordings And All of Them Were Amazing . If You Know Any Other Good Recording Of Brandenburg Concertos , Please Do Recommend Them


----------



## jailhouse

my favorite is this one







https://www.amazon.com/Bach-J-S-Bra...sr=8-1&keywords=brandenburg+concertos+masaaki





this recording is perfect imo. 
http://www.classicstoday.com/review/review-15196/ David Hurwitz agrees.


----------



## DavidA

Do hear Jacobs' stunning version of St John Passion


----------



## Reichstag aus LICHT

armanvd said:


> If You Know Any Other Good Recording Of Brandenburg Concertos , Please Do Recommend Them


I really like the Alessandrini, but two other favourites are:









Akademie für Alte Musik, Berlin









Diego Fasolis, I Barocchisti. (This comes in two volumes, one for Concertos 1-4 and the other for Concertos 5 and 6. I've customised the "Volume 1" cover so I've got one album containing all 6 Brandenburgs on my iPod.)


----------



## quietfire

Thank you for the music!


----------



## hpowders

I used to find Bach so boring when I was a kid. At the time, HIP inspired performances were virtually non-existant.

Now Bach is one of my favorite composers, as I adore HIP performances of Bach's solo keyboard works performed on replicas or restorations of 18th century harpsichords by the likes of Kenneth Weiss, Trevor Pinnock, Gustav Leonhardt and Blandine Rannou.

I also enjoy the solo violin sonatas and partitas performed on baroque violin by John Holloway and Sigiswald Kuijken.

From uninspired Bach playing to HIP. Made a believer out of me!


----------



## Pugg

quietfire said:


> Thank you for the music!


That one is from ABBA I believe.


----------



## quietfire

Pugg said:


> That one is from ABBA I believe.


lol..................


----------



## cimirro

Arman said:


>


what... what... ???? e... ho my Deer...


----------



## Animal the Drummer

"Gerald wondered where the rest of his stag party guests had gone."


----------



## quietfire

It is your birthday tomorrow J S! I am so excited!!! You would've been 332 years old!

I am still undecided what to do to celebrate you!


----------



## hpowders

quietfire said:


> It is your birthday tomorrow J S! I am so excited!!! You would've been 332 years old!
> 
> I am still undecided what to do to celebrate you!


Have a slice of rum cake on me!!


----------



## Pugg

quietfire said:


> It is your birthday tomorrow J S! I am so excited!!! You would've been 332 years old!
> 
> I am still undecided what to do to celebrate you!


Listen to his works all day perhaps?


----------



## quietfire

Pugg said:


> Listen to his works all day perhaps?


But that's already what I do in normal days


----------



## Bettina

quietfire said:


> But that's already what I do in normal days


To celebrate Bach's birthday, maybe you could spend some time reading about his life and music. This website is a good resource for that: http://www.bach-cantatas.com/ Despite its name, the website isn't just about the cantatas - it has biographical information, reviews of recordings, analytical essays, and many more items.


----------



## hpowders

quietfire said:


> But that's already what I do in normal days


Do what George Costanza on Seinfeld would do:

"If everything I do or say is wrong....I must do the opposite!"


----------



## Pugg

quietfire said:


> But that's already what I do in normal days


Make a top 20 and start from 20 way up this time.


----------



## Jacred

Happy 332nd birthday and thank you for the wonderful music.


----------



## Bluecrab

Last night we saw a performance of the Goldberg Variations by the American pianist Simone Dinnerstein. The music was accompanied by a troupe of seven modern dancers—an interesting combination, to be sure. Although at times I found the dancers to be a bit of a distraction, the musical performance was absolutely top-notch. She played the work faithfully and with plenty of emotion. I don't think I could ever tire of hearing that work. Hearing the aria alone was worth the price of admission.


----------



## JSBach85

Only one month left for the next release of Philippe Pierlot / Ricercar Consort cantatas:










In my opinion Pierlot is the best conductor using OVPP choir with outstanding vocal cast such as Carlos Mena, one of my favourite counter-tenors and the tenor Hans-Jorg Mammel. Ricercar Consort also comprises some of the best musicians especialized in early german baroque sacred works. They have great qualities that are appreciated in Bach cantatas performances: clarity and precision in each of the contrapuntal lines, whose blending sounds almost effortlessly contrived. Ricercar Consort is my reference for Buxtehude sacred works, Schütz, Sebastiani and Bruhns.


----------



## danj

What book would you guys recommend to read about Bach?


----------



## Mandryka

danj said:


> What book would you guys recommend to read about Bach?


Si vous pouvez lire Français, essayez _Le Moulin et la Rivière_, de Gilles Cantagrel


----------



## Larkenfield

danj said:


> What book would you guys recommend to read about Bach?


https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00LKVZNHS/ref=dp-kindle-redirect?_encoding=UTF8&btkr=1


----------



## Listenerris

Hello, Bach is a great composer and I like his adaggio


----------



## tdc

There is some interesting information on the life of J.S. Bach in this documentary done by conductor John Eliot Gardiner.

Bach - _A Passionate Life_


----------



## danj

Larkenfield said:


> https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00LKVZNHS/ref=dp-kindle-redirect?_encoding=UTF8&btkr=1


Is this a biography? That's what I am looking for.


----------



## JSBach85

tdc said:


> There is some interesting information on the life of J.S. Bach in this documentary done by conductor John Eliot Gardiner.
> 
> Bach - _A Passionate Life_


I really like this documentary, along with Victoria by The Sixteen, my favourites. I would appreciate if someone can speak further about the hard life of JS Bach in Leipzig, seems to be a fascinating part of his biography.


----------



## premont

danj said:


> What book would you guys recommend to read about Bach?


Johann Sebastian Bach: The Learned Musician Paperback - September 17, 2001 
by Christoph Wolff (Author)

https://www.amazon.com/Johann-Sebas...preST=_SY291_BO1,204,203,200_QL40_&dpSrc=srch


----------



## danj

premont said:


> Johann Sebastian Bach: The Learned Musician Paperback - September 17, 2001
> by Christoph Wolff (Author)
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/Johann-Sebas...preST=_SY291_BO1,204,203,200_QL40_&dpSrc=srch


Thanks, this looks good. After I'm finishing with Beethoven, I'll be sure to pick this one up.


----------



## Mephisto26

For lack of another non-specific Bach thread with recent posts...

For those who can read German: in the current issue of the German weekly newspaper „Die ZEIT“ you can find a special on Bach that is, IMO, excellent and definitely worth checking out.

Well, currently I just own a selection of Bach‘s organ works performed by Helmut Walcha and the Brandenburgs performed by the English Concert with Trevor Pinnock. Will have to dig into the threads here to find the next item to be purchased and enjoyed... Right now, St. Matthew Passion seems fitting.


----------



## KenOC

On today's date, August 5, from an e-mail:
------------------------------
Today’s date marks a “good news, bad news” anniversary in the life of Johann Sebastian Bach. On today’s date in 1717, Bach was appointed as the new Kapellmeister at the Princely Court of Leopold of Coethen. Since the young prince was an avid music-lover, and offering Bach a much higher salary than his present one, that counts as “good news.” The “bad news” related to Bach’s previous employer in 1717, namely the Duke of Weimar, who was not exactly pleased that Bach had accepted a new job offer. The Duke, in fact, flatly refused to let him go. Real or imagined court intrigue in Weimar complicated the matter, and the Prince’s “poaching” of Bach might have been perceived as just another indirect slap at the Duke maneuvered by a long-standing family feud. The upshot was that Bach was put on the Prince’s payroll effective in August of 1717, but the Duke didn’t accept Bach’s resignation until five months later, and then only after throwing Bach in jail for almost a month to teach him a lesson, or, as the court secretary put it, “for too stubbornly forcing the issue of his dismissal.” In an age when Dukes and Princes could do as they pleased, it appears giving two weeks’ notice was a tad more complicated than it is today!


----------



## Blancrocher

Mostly a profile of the cellist Yo-Yo Ma, punctuated with airy comments about the cello suites:

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/09/28/arts/music/yo-yo-ma-bach-suites.html

It's an enjoyable article. There was a time when I thought his reputation became overblown and his emotive style annoyed me, but with time I've come to admire his playing more and more. Sort of like how I feel about Cher, come to think of it--if people are just going to keep doing their thing into their old age, I can't help but like them.


----------



## Janspe

Finally, after years of deliberate waiting, I've started to listen to the cantatas of Bach. Of course I have listened to huge amounts of Bach's music throughout the years, especially his instrumental works, but his greatest genre has felt like too big a challenge up until now.

I'm sure this'll be a journey that lasts a lifetime. How lucky I am to be able to have something this beautiful in my life...


----------



## Martin70

My experience is that the Bach cantatas journey is a long one, but the further you travel with them, the more you marvel at them. When I started this journey, only one "complete" set was available, now I have so many that I need a database to find the cantata I want and am spoilt for choice.


----------



## flamencosketches

I'm a newcomer to the music of Bach (& classical/baroque music in general). Up until a couple months ago just about the only thing Bach meant to me was the lute suites which I've loved for years (I'm a guitar player) & the organ toccata & fugue in D minor which I've always known to be a badass piece of music. But after hearing Glenn Gould's 1955 Goldberg Variations and becoming obsessed (typical story I'm sure) I've made sure to dig a lot deeper into his music than I had before, especially his keyboard music which is all nothing short of genius, if that at all needs to be said. Since then András Schiff has become my favorite player of his works. The Partitas in particular he plays masterfully and I listen to at least one disc of that set first thing in the morning every day lately. His Goldberg Variations are great too and in a style pretty far removed from Gould's spare version. I also recently picked up Keith Jarrett's Well-Tempered Clavier set which I have not really warmed to yet, though I've been a huge fan of Jarrett's jazz music (if that's what you want to call it) for years and never knew he played Bach until a couple days ago.

I know it's probably anathema to some here but Bach on the modern piano is great. Schiff himself talks about his rationale behind playing on modern pianos in this great video:






Who are some other pianists that y'all think do a good job with Bach's keyboard works? Does anyone have a favorite take on any of the keyboard pieces I've mentioned played on period instruments? Can't wait to get further into his massive body of music.


----------



## Mandryka

flamencosketches said:


> I'm a newcomer to the music of Bach (& classical/baroque music in general). Up until a couple months ago just about the only thing Bach meant to me was the lute suites which I've loved for years (I'm a guitar player) & the organ toccata & fugue in D minor which I've always known to be a badass piece of music. But after hearing Glenn Gould's 1955 Goldberg Variations and becoming obsessed (typical story I'm sure) I've made sure to dig a lot deeper into his music than I had before, especially his keyboard music which is all nothing short of genius, if that at all needs to be said. Since then András Schiff has become my favorite player of his works. The Partitas in particular he plays masterfully and I listen to at least one disc of that set first thing in the morning every day lately. His Goldberg Variations are great too and in a style pretty far removed from Gould's spare version. I also recently picked up Keith Jarrett's Well-Tempered Clavier set which I have not really warmed to yet, though I've been a huge fan of Jarrett's jazz music (if that's what you want to call it) for years and never knew he played Bach until a couple days ago.
> 
> I know it's probably anathema to some here but Bach on the modern piano is great. Schiff himself talks about his rationale behind playing on modern pianos in this great video:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Who are some other pianists that y'all think do a good job with Bach's keyboard works? Does anyone have a favorite take on any of the keyboard pieces I've mentioned played on period instruments? Can't wait to get further into his massive body of music.


The pianist who really thought through from scratch how to put Bach on a modern piano is called Wolfgang Rubsam, who recorded suites and partitas on Naxos. All the rest more or less come from a tradition of playing Mozart, Chopin and Beethoven and tend to treat the sort of music Bach wrote as if it were much the same sort of thing, which may not be the best way to do it justice.

In fact it's probably worth knowing that Bach was familiar with pianos, it's just that as far as we can tell he didn't write any keyboard music for them, or not much. The pianos of his day were a bit different from modern ones, more percussive, and you may like to try some performances of his music on one of them. There is, for example, a good Goldberg variations by a pianist called Walter Riemer.

As far as original instruments is concerned there is one which in a way which is very like a piano, called a clavichord. It's got lots of colour and allows some dynamic variation too. It was never popular for concerts and stuff like that, because it's very quiet, Of course the quietness is less of an issue on a stereo because you can pump up the volume if you want. In Bach's time people used it for playing at home or for practising. There's a recording of Bach's Inventions and symphonias for keyboard which uses a clavichord, I like it very much, it's by a musician called Jaroslav Tuma.

But the main authentic instrument for the suites is a harpsichord. And you can do no better in Bach IMO than to try something like The Well Tempered Clavier played by a great harpsichord player like Richard Egarr, Gustav Leonhardt, Glen Wilson, Bob van Asperen and so on and so forth.


----------



## Josquin13

Here are some of my favorite digital era (or nearly so) recordings of Bach's keyboard music played on a piano, most of which you can listen to for free on You Tube:

Virginia Black--6 Partitas: 



)

Andrea Bacchetti--6 French Suites--Sony:




Dubravka Tomsic: 



https://www.amazon.com/Bach-Italian...d=1547504510&sr=1-1&keywords=tomsic+bach+pilz

Alfred Brendel: 



https://www.amazon.com/Bach-Italian...8&qid=1547504577&sr=1-1&keywords=brendel+bach

Amandine Savary--Toccatas: 




Glenn Gould--I generally like Gould's last Bach recordings best--the Toccatas: 



, and Preludes, Fugues, Fughettas, and 1981 Goldberg Variations, and so did he: 



.

David Fray--Partitas 2 & 6, & Keyboard Concertos:

















https://www.amazon.com/Bach-Keyboar...UTF8&qid=1547504600&sr=1-2&keywords=fray+bach
https://www.amazon.com/Bach-concert...UTF8&qid=1547504600&sr=1-1&keywords=fray+bach

Evelyn Crochet--Well-Tempered Clavier Books 1 & 2: 




Ivo Pogorelich--English Suites 2 & 3: 




Maria Joao Pires:













https://www.amazon.com/Maria-João-P...7522392&sr=1-4&keywords=maria+joao+pires+bach

Ivo Janssen (if you find that you like Janssen's Bach, he has recorded a complete box set on the VOID label):

Goldberg Variations: 



The Art of the Fugue: 




Edward Aldwell:

6 French Suites: (1-3) 



, (4-6) 



Well tempered Clavier Books 1 & 2:








French Overture & selections from the Art of the Fugue: 



Goldberg Variations: 




Vladimir Feltsman--Two & Three Part Inventions & 6 Partitas:










Angela Hewitt--Art of the Fugue & Toccatas:






Murray Perahia--Goldberg Variations, etc.: 




Tatiana Nikolayeva:

Two & Three Part Inventions: 



Goldberg Variations:https: 



Well-Tempered Clavier, Books 1 & 2: 




If sound quality isn't a big deal, I'd suggest that you also sample the Bach playing of some of the older, historic pianists too, such as Samuel Feinberg: 



, Roslyn Tureck, Mieczyslaw Horszowski, & Sviatoslav Richter (though Richter also recorded into the digital era): 




To sample Bach's keyboard music played on a harpsichord, I'd recommend that you look into the recordings by Bob Van Asperen (Well Tempered Clavier Books 1 & 2:



, 6 French Suites:



, 6 English Suites, etc.), Gustav Leonhardt (6 French Suites, Art of the Fugue, Brandenburg Concerto No. 5: 



), Pascal Dubreuil (6 Partitas: 



, English Suites, etc.), Leon Berben (WTC, Fantasias), Pierre Hantai (Goldberg Variations: 



, Keyboard Concertos, etc.), Pieter-Jan Belder (6 Partitas), Christian Rieger (Art of the Fugue), Fabio Bonizzoni (Goldberg Variations, Art of the Fugue, Keyboard Concertos Vol. 1), Christophe Rousset (6 English Suites: 



, & 6 French Suites), Ton Koopman (Keyboard Concertos, etc.), Ottavio Dantone (WTC Book 2), Trevor Pinnock (6 Partitas), Matteo Messori (Art of the Fugue), Blandine Rannou (6 French Suites, Goldberg Variations), and Davitt Moroney, Karen Flint, Arthur Haas & other harpischordists in a complete set of Bach's Keyboard Concertos played on antique instruments: 




Of course, the copious amount of suggestions above are meant to be explored over time, at you leisure.


----------



## flamencosketches

I'll be coming back for sure. Thank you to the last two posters for all the diverse suggestions.

I've heard Bach's keyboard instrument of choice was the clavichord (specifically, Schiff talks about it in that video I linked) so it would be interesting to hear his music played on one of those. I always thought it was more like a harpsichord than a piano, but I guess that goes to show my ignorance. I'm not too big on the sound of the harpsichord (as a solo instrument; it is cool as a continuo (if I am using that term correctly) in some of the more period-sounding recordings I have) but I bet I could warm to it over time like anything else.


----------



## Mandryka

flamencosketches said:


> I'll be coming back for sure. Thank you to the last two posters for all the diverse suggestions.
> 
> I've heard Bach's keyboard instrument of choice was the clavichord (specifically, Schiff talks about it in that video I linked) so it would be interesting to hear his music played on one of those. I always thought it was more like a harpsichord than a piano, but I guess that goes to show my ignorance. I'm not too big on the sound of the harpsichord (as a solo instrument; it is cool as a continuo (if I am using that term correctly) in some of the more period-sounding recordings I have) but I bet I could warm to it over time like anything else.


Be careful with harpsichord on record, you need to chose a recording with an attractive instrument (they are not all the same) and one that's well recorded, played by someone who knows how to drive it properly.


----------



## JosefinaHW

_Cello Suites_ performed by Ralph Kirshbaum If you only a have a short amount of time, listen to _Suite No. 6 in D Major_, BWV 1012

The piece begins at 1:51:02 This may be the closest we can ever get to experiencing Perfection.


----------



## flamencosketches

@josquin13, thank you for putting me onto Bob van Asperen. His Art of Fugue is amazing, and I'm not a big solo harpsichord guy, but his tone is incredibly rich. His French Suites sound great too.


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## tdc

What Made Bach Great? by Rick Beato


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## flamencosketches

^I've seen that video. Interesting thoughts about Bach's harmonic language.

I have been revisiting Glenn Gould's Bach, one of my first loves in classical music.






The Well-Tempered Clavier. They're not all the best, but some of these interpretations are amazing.

Another favorite as far as Bach's music on the modern piano is András Schiff.






I really do not care what anyone says about anachronism. Bach's music can sound incredible on the modern piano. It speaks to the universality of his music that it can expand far beyond its original baroque instrumentation and retain its power. This is certainly not true of all Baroque composers.


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## flamencosketches

Larkenfield said:


> https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00LKVZNHS/ref=dp-kindle-redirect?_encoding=UTF8&btkr=1


I read this book last month. Very good read!

& finally, to respond to Mandryka's post to me on the previous page. I have not totally ignored your advice to listen to Bach on original instruments. For example I have Wolfgang Rubsam's new-ish recording of the Goldberg Variations played on a Lautenwerk (if that counts as an original instrument for this piece) and it's quite good. Additionally, I have been really enjoying what little I've heard of Leonhardt playing Bach on the harpsichord, and I love Bob van Asperen's French Suites and Art of Fugue. The latter is my favorite harpsichordist. I just have to be in the mood to hear the harpsichord, which is not always.


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## Agamenon

The video titled "What made Bach great" is a gem. Bach is the universe!


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## Brazealnut

Embarrassingly enough, when I first was getting into classical music, I much preferred Vivaldi to Bach; Bach just didn't make sense to me. Thankfully something changed along my journey... now Bach is one of my favorites to listen to and to play (his French & English suites are so rewarding)! I'm very grateful the world had Bach—shudder to think where we'd be without him!


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## flamencosketches

I'm getting back into Bach lately. Here are some of the excellent performances I have been enjoying:

Cello Suites, Anner Bylsma.






Motet "Singet dem Herrn ein neues Lied", Scholars Baroque Ensemble. An excellent performance available cheaply on Naxos.






Brandenburg Concertos, Trevor Pinnock/English Concert.






Two-Part Inventions, András Schiff. I'm learning the first one of them in C major.


----------



## DavidA

flamencosketches said:


> ^I've seen that video. Interesting thoughts about Bach's harmonic language.
> 
> I have been revisiting Glenn Gould's Bach, one of my first loves in classical music.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Well-Tempered Clavier. They're not all the best, but some of these interpretations are amazing.
> 
> Another favorite as far as Bach's music on the modern piano is András Schiff.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I really do not care what anyone says about anachronism. Bach's music can sound incredible on the modern piano. It speaks to the universality of his music that it can expand far beyond its original baroque instrumentation and retain its power. This is certainly not true of all Baroque composers.


I think there is nothing more ridiculous than talking about anachronisms for composers like Bach and Handel. They themselves re-arranged their music to suit themselves and the needs of the choirs and orchestras available. Now what sounds the best is different. To me a piano sounds better than skeletons making love on a tin roof!


----------



## Clouds Weep Snowflakes

Bach's organ works are my favorite pieces from the whole period of Baroque, celestial and charming; he is rightfully one of the "big three".


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## flamencosketches

Clouds Weep Snowflakes said:


> Bach's organ works are my favorite pieces from the whole period of Baroque, celestial and charming; he is rightfully one of the "big three".


I'm curious about these. Can anyone tell me a good single or double CD of the organ works? I am not a big organ guy but am beginning to appreciate it. I don't need the complete set just yet. I've heard some of Helmut Walcha, is he the way to go?


----------



## Bourdon

flamencosketches said:


> I'm curious about these. Can anyone tell me a good single or double CD of the organ works? I am not a big organ guy but am beginning to appreciate it. I don't need the complete set just yet. I've heard some of Helmut Walcha, is he the way to go?


 Just to give you an idea,I never heard it more beautiful played than on this recording. (teldec )


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## Mandryka

flamencosketches said:


> I'm curious about these. Can anyone tell me a good single or double CD of the organ works?


The question's too hard.

About 10 years ago I asked someone the same question more or less and I got back an answer which intrigued me so much that it started off a project of exploration which continues now. I can't do better than to give you the same answer I got, though I was (still am) specially interested in Bach's "mature" music.

This









And this











flamencosketches said:


> I've heard some of Helmut Walcha, is he the way to go?


Why not? Whatever you do you won't regret hearing him, I'm sure. He's like Cortot for Chopin and Schnabel for Beethoven - very talented musician, important in the reception history, influential,popular, slightly quirky and I'd say slightly old fashioned.


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## flamencosketches

Good stuff, thank you my friend. I'll keep my eyes peeled for those discs. Can't say I'm familiar with either Gerd Zacher or Edgar Krapp, two extremely unfortunate names, I think. I suppose that is a plus if you're an organist though. 

On the other side of the equation, I just cheaply picked up a CD from the augustly named E. Power Biggs and am excited to check it out.

I see Walcha has a multi disc set of Bach's organ works on Arkiv, I'll save up for it I think. Your comparison to Cortot and Schnabel is fascinating, of course those are two of the most revered musicians and personal favorites of mine, so you have piqued my interest. 

@Bourdon, I really enjoyed that. I need to explore more of Ton Koopman's recordings. I'm fond of the whole "Dutch school" of Bach players.


----------



## Guest

Koopman, Marie-Claire Alain, Weinberger all have made cycles that are more or less unimpeachable in very good sound. The big boxes can be so cheap that the 2CD sets might be beside the point. The downside is too many CDs to listen to.


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## flamencosketches

This Power Biggs is damn good, I think. Probably could be called an old-fashioned approach to performance. But his organ sounds clear as a bell.









If you ever find it for dirt cheap like I did then I think it's worth picking up. I'll be looking into some of the more colorful-looking interpretations that have been shared with me thus far in this thread, too.


----------



## KenOC

flamencosketches said:


> This Power Biggs is damn good, I think. Probably could be called an old-fashioned approach to performance. But his organ sounds clear as a bell.


E. Power Biggs was the aptly-named star organist for Columbia Records back in the day (later purchased by Sony). Many of his stereo recordings were made on a three-manual Flentrop tracker organ installed in Harvard's Busch-Reisinger Museum, Cambridge, Massachusetts. It is an exceptionally clear and well-articulated instrument, while not giving up any power to achieve that.

I believe I read that Biggs commissioned and paid for the organ, so Columbia must have treated him very well financially.


----------



## Mandryka

flamencosketches said:


> Good stuff, thank you my friend. I'll keep my eyes peeled for those discs. Can't say I'm familiar with either Gerd Zacher or Edgar Krapp, two extremely unfortunate names, I think. I suppose that is a plus if you're an organist though.
> 
> On the other side of the equation, I just cheaply picked up a CD from the augustly named E. Power Biggs and am excited to check it out.
> 
> I see Walcha has a multi disc set of Bach's organ works on Arkiv, I'll save up for it I think. Your comparison to Cortot and Schnabel is fascinating, of course those are two of the most revered musicians and personal favorites of mine, so you have piqued my interest.


Forget all of that, get this









It's a set released by Brilliant Classics, you should be able to pick it up for peanuts, or hear it on some streaming service, it contains recordings that Koopman made on different organs, all good historic well restored organs and well enough recorded. He made these recordings before his big complete set, for a company called Novalis. It will give you a good taste of Bach's organ music, early and later works, you may not enjoy all the music but at least you'll be able to see what sort of Bach excites your imagination without getting drowned in a "complete organ music" set. You have to see it as a learning process. And it will give you a taste of a range of organ types.


----------



## millionrainbows

Here's my choice. Organ LPs were frequently used to demonstrate hi-fi systems in the late 1950s and early 1960s, and this one certainly fits the bill. This is an excellent recording, technically speaking, and Virgil Fox is perhaps even more radical than E. Power Biggs. It's a 2-CD.


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## tdc

The last few days I've been listening to the B minor prelude and fugue from book I of the WTC quite a bit (Schiff on ECM). Perhaps this is stating the obvious but this is really stunning music.


----------



## flamencosketches

tdc said:


> The last few days I've been listening to the B minor prelude and fugue from book I of the WTC quite a bit (Schiff on ECM). Perhaps this is stating the obvious but this is really stunning music.


Yes, that's a great one and a great recording.

I just ordered Gustav Leonhardt's WTC Book I. I don't have any recordings of it on the harpsichord so this will rectify a major omission in my Bach collection. I've been listening to Mr. Leonhardt's Art of Fugue and French Suites very much lately.


----------



## Mandryka

flamencosketches said:


> Yes, that's a great one and a great recording.
> 
> I just ordered Gustav Leonhardt's WTC Book I. I don't have any recordings of it on the harpsichord so this will rectify a major omission in my Bach collection. I've been listening to Mr. Leonhardt's Art of Fugue and French Suites very much lately.


Be sure to listen to Leonhardt's second AoF, the one on Harmonia Mundi, it's more successful that the first.


----------



## flamencosketches

Mandryka said:


> Be sure to listen to Leonhardt's second AoF, the one on Harmonia Mundi, it's more successful that the first.


The one I have is Deutsche Harmonia Mundi:









Just excellent... the earlier recording is for the Bach Guild, no? I believe it's available as part of one of their super cheap "big box" downloads.


----------



## Mandryka

Yo Tomita is a professor at Queens University Belfast, he has written many essays for Suzuki's CD booklets.

His doctoral thesis was on WTC 2. Much of it is obtainable here

http://etheses.whiterose.ac.uk/11258/1/277931_vol1.pdf

In the thesis he writes the following



> Bach Intended to write 24 Individual pieces, and made no concession at a
> musical level to unify them as a part of the whole. I suspect that the true answer is something
> different. For If we tum to recent studies on Bach's contemporary large-scale works, viz., CU3,
> CU4, Musical Offering and the Art of Fugue, they all Indicate that in these works the structural,
> unifying element was the central pillar.10 Is there any undiscovered aspect of WTC II which
> unifies the work as a whole?


What is CU4?


----------



## premont

Mandryka said:


> What is CU4?


The Goldberg variations.


----------



## premont

Mandryka said:


> Yo Tomita is a professor at Queens University Belfast, he has written many essays for Suzuki's CD booklets.
> 
> His doctoral thesis was on WTC 2. Much of it is obtainable here
> 
> http://etheses.whiterose.ac.uk/11258/1/277931_vol1.pdf


Thanks for this link.


----------



## Mandryka

premont said:


> Thanks for this link.


It is an interesting question, why he wrote WTC2.


----------



## Mandryka

premont said:


> The Goldberg variations.


I thought that was part of CU2, but I now see that I was wrong!


----------



## tdc

I've always thought of both books of the WTC as collections of individual pieces. Whether or not they are somehow unified as a whole is not really that important to me. Perhaps there is something over looked, though for types of works such as this it is possible an attempt to unify everything could lead to a loss in the uniqueness and individuality of each piece. The distinct character of each musical key is likely what was considered the more important matter in such a compilation. Each work being a unique part of the spectrum of musical keys in a way unifies them.


----------



## Mandryka

tdc said:


> The distinct character of each musical key is likely what was considered the more important matter in such a compilation


I know that Mattheson and probably others proposed key/affect relationships, but what I don't know is whether there was a consensus about this, and whether Bach and other composers really believed in Mattheson's ideas or had other ideas.

Guido Neve and Frank Agsteribbe investigated this in preparation for their recording of the violin sonatas, and the CD had quite an extensive booklet essay about it. Unfortunately I didn't keep it. The resulting interpretation is extraordinary.

Leila Schayegh and Jörg Halubek did the same, but they just assert that Mattheson was held in "high esteem by Bach" and that "listening to the Sonatas from Mattheson's perspective enables one to discover new and sometimes unexpected approaches", which I suppose is true but maybe not very interesting.

What is interesting is that Schayegh and Halubek sound so very different from Neve and Agsteribbe -- maybe not surprising really.

Mattheson says that "The key of E major expresses a despairing sadness, even to the point of death; ... and under certain circumstances has something piercing to it... and penetrating, which can be compared to nothing more than to a fatal parting of the body and the soul." We now need to find all Bach's E major pieces (in the cantatas) and see whether they matche up . . . .and then you get your Ph.D.

It's interesting that these violinists take affect theory so seriously, but as far as I know the keyboard players don't seem to write about it much. Which harpsichord player has been guided by Mattheson in their interpretation of WTC?

I heard Egarr give a talk on the affects in the 6th partita, but he was most interested in numerology.


----------



## millionrainbows

Wht not just listen and see? Peter Watchorn's recording is in Bach's tuning.


----------



## Mandryka

millionrainbows said:


> Wht not just listen and see? Peter Watchorn's recording is in Bach's tuning.


Just thinking to the E major _prelude_ in Bk2, Glen Wilson seems to be sensitive to the "dark side" that Mattheson says is part of the meaning of the key, and maybe Suzuki - not surprisingly given his connection with Yo Tomita.

Bulldog won't be surprised about that!


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## premont

I have not studied this point in detail, but there are subtle differences between all those modified mean tone temperaments (Valotti, Werckmeister, Kelner, Lehmann et.c.), which means that the mood of e.g. E-major might differ according to the chosen tuning. In these ears however all the pieces of Bach in E-major I can recall from the top of my head are in a rather festive mood if we don't use pure mean tone. Which tuning does Mattheson's definitions refer to? Maybe pure mean tone.


----------



## Mandryka

premont said:


> I have not studied this point in detail, but there are subtle differences between all those modified mean tone temperaments (Valotti, Werckmeister, Kelner, Lehmann et.c.), which means that the mood of e.g. E-major might differ according to the chosen tuning. In these ears however all the pieces of Bach in E-major I can recall from the top of my head are in a rather festive mood if we don't use pure mean tone. Which tuning does Mattheson's definitions refer to? Maybe pure mean tone.


Or Bach's conception of the affect of a key was different from Mattheson's, and possibly evolved over his life, and that there was no consensus about this sort of thing, just as there wouldn't be today. But how else to find out other than by looking at the keys Bach used to set texts -- and letting the poetry guide your judgement as to the intended affect of the music? That's a big job, several Ph.Ds!


----------



## premont

Mandryka said:


> Or Bach's conception of the affect of a key was different from Mattheson's, and possibly evolved over his life, and that there was no consensus about this sort of thing, just as there wouldn't be today. But how else to find out other than by looking at the keys Bach used to set texts -- and letting the poetry guide your judgement as to the intended affect of the music? That's a big job, several Ph.Ds!


It is not that easy. The affekt of a key (or key coloration) is critically dependent on the temperament. And temperaments changed in Bach's time from mean tone to more and more equal non-equal tuning. So it seems natural, if his experience of key color later in life was different from what was preached around 1700, the different affects of the keys being most pronounced in mean tone tuning. The other extreme is equal tuning, where all keys have the same color except for the difference between major/minor.

Another point of view is to consider the definition of key color as being the result of convenience. If this actually was true of Mattheson's definitions, I think the concept looses its meaning and interest.


----------



## Bulldog

Mandryka said:


> Just thinking to the E major _prelude_ in Bk2, Glen Wilson seems to be sensitive to the "dark side" that Mattheson says is part of the meaning of the key, and maybe Suzuki - not surprisingly given his connection with Yo Tomita.
> 
> Bulldog won't be surprised about that!


No, but I don't consider the E major Prelude particularly dark. It has a sadness below the surface, but I find it rather mild. By the way, that is a fantastic prelude that's beautifully followed by the heroic/ triumphant fugue.


----------



## tdc

The characteristics of different keys are fairly subjective, I think this is true even if the same tuning Bach used is employed, although there will be certain limitations and strengths in different keys if certain non equal temperament tunings are used. I see these pieces as insights as to how Bach perceived the characteristics of different keys. I think the over all mood of each prelude and fugue is maintained whether the music is performed in equal temperament or mean tone tuning, or whatever other tuning gets closest to what Bach used. Maybe it is just a matter of what I'm used to, or imprinted on, but I've never found my over all enjoyment of Baroque music (or any other period) has increased when musicians experiment with different non equal temperament tunings.


----------



## Mandryka

I don’t think you can talk about the mood of a prelude of Fugue (tdc) or whether or not a prelude is dark or not (Bulldog) These things are aspects of performance, interpretation, and your emotional reaction to the performance. If you listen to Wilson and, for example, Asperen in the E major Bk 2 prelude, the mood, the darkness level, are very different, presumably both performances are playing the music in an informed way, and in the same key with similar tuning. 

I think that a musical performance is an experiment, and I think it’s a interesting that there are a couple of violinists who are using Mattheson to generate some new ideas to try out. I wish some keyboard players would have a go at that, maybe Wilson did. 

As far as tuning goes, if it really is central to the affect generated by a key, I think you’d expect it to be much more specified by the score, because the affect is a major part of the music’s impact on the listener. We know that tuning wasn’t standardised much for harpsichords. Yet there’s at best only one piece where Bach specifies a tuning system with the score - WTC1 (there is no frontispiece for WTC2) - and even that is at best in a hermetic code and at worst is very disputable. As far as I know no other harpsichord compositions by other composers specify a tuning system.

My own feeling is that tuning and key are two factors amongst many which cause mood, and by no means the most important factors. Tempo, rhythm, articulation, rubato, ornamentation - all the other elements of interpretation, have a major part to play.


----------



## premont

Mandryka said:


> I don't think you can talk about the mood of a prelude of Fugue (tdc) or whether or not a prelude is dark or not (Bulldog) These things are aspects of performance, interpretation, and your emotional reaction to the performance. If you listen to Wilson and, for example, Asperen in the E major Bk 2 prelude, the mood, the darkness level, are very different, presumably both performances are playing the music in an informed way, and in the same key with similar tuning.


Yes, affect is indeed a subjective matter, and different performers may hear different affects in the same music. And if I talk about the affect of a given piece, I think of the affect I hear in my inner ear when reading the score.



Mandryka said:


> As far as tuning goes, if it really is central to the affect generated by a key, I think you'd expect it to be much more specified by the score, because the affect is a major part of the music's impact on the listener. We know that tuning wasn't standardised much for harpsichords. Yet there's at best only one piece where Bach specifies a tuning system with the score - WTC1 (there is no frontispiece for WTC2) - and even that is at best in a hermetic code and at worst is very disputable. As far as I know no other harpsichord compositions by other composers specify a tuning system.


In all likehood the displayed affect as well as the tuning were up to the performers discretion.



Mandryka said:


> My own feeling is that tuning and key are two factors amongst many which cause mood, and by no means the most important factors. Tempo, rhythm, articulation, rubato, ornamentation - all the other elements of interpretation, have a major part to play.


I admit readily, that my idea of the affect of a piece depends upon much other than the temperament. But sometimes a change in temperament can change the affect - at least in my mind -, the most of course when the difference in temperament is great - e.g. mean tone vs. equal tuning.


----------



## premont

tdc said:


> .. but I've never found my over all enjoyment of Baroque music (or any other period) has increased when musicians experiment with different non equal temperament tunings.


Well, I have found the opposite, namely that non-equal tunings most often increase the enjoyment of the music, also when the affect of the piece isn't changed thereby.


----------



## tdc

Mandryka said:


> My own feeling is that tuning and key are two factors amongst many which cause mood, and by no means the most important factors. Tempo, rhythm, articulation, rubato, ornamentation - all the other elements of interpretation, have a major part to play.


These elements of interpretation certainly do have a big impact and can bring to light certain subtle aspects of a work, however I think the key (major/minor) is a very big factor, at least equal to the elements you have described and definitely bigger than the tuning subtleties we have discussed.*

Performers are certainly co-creators, but barring major incompetence the essence of the mood or character of a composition is going to come through. I have not come across a version of the Chaconne where the minor key section sounds bubbly and cheerful, or a first movement of the Italian Concerto that sounds dark and eerie.

*I'm referring to Baroque music here. In post Classical era music major and minor keys often have less of a decisive role in the over all character of a piece of music.


----------



## Mandryka

tdc said:


> Performers are certainly co-creators, but barring major incompetence the essence of the mood or character of a composition is going to come through. I have not come across a version of the Chaconne where the minor key section sounds bubbly and cheerful, or a first movement of the Italian Concerto that sounds dark and eerie.


I shall hunt out a performance of the Eroica where someone's put the fun in the funeral march!


----------



## tdc

Mandryka said:


> I shall hunt out a performance of the Eroica where someone's put the fun in the funeral march!


So what do you mean by this, that the Chaconne only sounds this way because performers believe it is a funeral march? You can substitute the Chaconne in my example for the B minor prelude and fugue from the WTC book I or any number of minor key works. Sure there will be some that are more ambiguous than others, but the minor/major quality plays a big role.


----------



## tdc

Possibly some confusion has arisen from the fact there are two aspects to musical keys, the specific pitch of the tonic, and whether the key is major or minor. The first aspect of keys is the part that is quite subjective in terms of differing key characteristics ie. - E Major vs. F Major (most people without perfect pitch could not differentiate these two keys just by listening) the second aspect has a much more noticeable quality ie - E major vs. E minor, there is a very striking aural difference between these latter two keys.

I do agree that elements of performance such as articulation, phrasing and rubato etc. have a bigger impact on the mood or character of a piece than the first aspect of musical keys (the tonic note), but not the second (major/minor).


----------



## premont

tdc said:


> Possibly some confusion has arisen from the fact there are two aspects to musical keys, the specific pitch of the tonic, and whether the key is major or minor. The first aspect of keys is the part that is quite subjective in terms of differing key characteristics ie. - E Major vs. F Major (most people without perfect pitch could not differentiate these two keys just by listening) the second aspect has a much more noticeable quality ie - E major vs. E minor, there is a very striking aural difference between these latter two keys.
> 
> I do agree that elements of performance such as articulation, phrasing and rubato etc. have a bigger impact on the mood or character of a piece than the first aspect of musical keys (the tonic note), but not the second (major/minor).


While I generally agree with all this, I also think it should be added, that it only applies to equal tuning, where different modes have the same tone color. In mean tone temperament it would be possible even to a relative untrained ear (because of the different tone colors) to distinguish between E major and F major at least so far, that they would be experienced as being different. But it demands a very trained ear to experience the same modes as being different in the most advanced mean tone modifications like Kirnberger's.


----------



## premont

Mandryka said:


> I shall hunt out a performance of the Eroica where someone's put the fun in the funeral march!


You know Beethoven wrote two small piano pieces and called them "Lustig" and "Traurig". Lustig is in minor mode, and Traurig in major mode.


----------



## Mandryka

tdc said:


> I have not come across a version of the Chaconne where the minor key section sounds bubbly and cheerful,


I wonder what you think of Mortensen


----------



## tdc

Mandryka said:


> I wonder what you think of Mortensen


Actually I really enjoyed listening to this transcription, the piece was beautifully played. You've done well to provide this example to demonstrate your point, to show just how much the mood of a piece can be affected by the performance. Indeed this interpretation makes the work seem lighter and bouncier than any other I've listened to. That said I think the minor key section still has a gravitas and seriousness that is perceptible underneath this use of phrasing Mortensen employs that is inescapable due to Bach's use of harmony.


----------



## Mandryka

In my hunt for a dark and eerie sounding Italian Concerto I found this CD, it's the sort of thing that streaming is good for. In the sarabande of the French Suite, they really made me sit up and listen.







.








Pierre Hantai recorded The Italian Concerto a few years ago, and from the point of view of affect of the first movement, I think it's strange and slightly disturbing, but it may just be me. Maria Tipo's another a bit like that I think, unfortunately I can't find either the Hantai or the Tipo on YouTube, which is a shame because I'm not sure we'd share the same response, it would be interesting to see.


----------



## Larkenfield




----------



## Ras

Speaking of Bach transcriptions - I stumbled upon a transcription by baroque violinist *E. Onofri of Bach's Toccata and Fugue in d minor BWV 565 for solo violin.*
Love it. 
*Are there other transcriptions of Bach's organ music for solo violin?*


----------



## Mandryka

Ras said:


> *Are there other transcriptions of Bach's organ music for solo violin?*
> 
> View attachment 122123


Working through this may come up with something

https://www.bach-cantatas.com/Arran/L-Violin.htm


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## Ras

Mandryka said:


> Working through this may come up with something
> 
> https://www.bach-cantatas.com/Arran/L-Violin.htm


Thanks Mandryka
That looks like an interesting website.


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## Josquin13

Ras asks, "Are there other transcriptions of Bach's organ music for solo violin?"

Hi Ras--I have that Onofri disc, and like it, too. He's one of my favorite period violinists. The only other violinist I know that has transcribed Bach's organ music for the solo violin is Andrew Manze, who made his own transcription of the Toccata and Fugue, BWV 565:






Given how many parts there are, I expect the organ works are extremely difficult to transcribe & play on a single instrument, especially a violin. But Onofri and Manze have managed to pull it off, & amazingly so.

Otherwise, there are plenty of fine transcriptions of the organ works for chamber ensembles (& orchestras). I especially like the 6 Trio Sonatas myself:

https://www.amazon.com/Six-Trio-Son...=B00006GO5Q&psc=1&refRID=7WH2V11GJRMTG13PW9KP
https://www.amazon.com/Trio-Sonatas...ing's+con sort&qid=1564858734&s=music&sr=1-1

And of course there have been many transcriptions of the organ works for solo piano (esp. if you count the WTC as organ music), most notably by the likes of Ferruccio Busoni and Alexander Siloti, & others; as well as transcriptions of Bach's violin works for the piano, such as the famous Chaconne: 



. I've long enjoyed the way pianist Emil Gilels plays Siloti's transcription of the Prelude in B minor, for example: 




Pianist Vikingur Olafsson also plays a transcription of the Organ Sonata No. 4, BWV 528 on his recent award winning Bach album for DG: 



.

Wilhelm Kempff also used to play his own transcriptions of Bach, which are some of his best Bach recordings, IMO: 




It's possible that a violinist has played the Busoni & Siloti transcriptions as a encore, but no one comes to mind at the moment.

Oh yes, violinist Janinie Jansen has recorded Bach's 15 Two & Three Part Inventions for keyboard, BWV 772/786, but not on a solo violin, as she needed help from Maxim Rysanov and Torlief Thedéen: 




That's all I can come up with. Maybe others will know more.


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## Mandryka

https://www.bachnetwork.co.uk/ub6/Tomita UB6.pdf

2011 Paper by Yo Tomita on WTC2 here. "The Implications of Bach's Introduction of New Fugal Techniques and Procedures in The Well-Tempered Clavier Book Two"


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## Ras

Josquin13 said:


> Ras asks, "Are there other transcriptions of Bach's organ music for solo violin?"
> 
> Hi Ras--I have that Onofri disc, and like it, too. He's one of my favorite period violinists. The only other violinist I know that has transcribed Bach's organ music for the solo violin is Andrew Manze, who made his own transcription of the Toccata and Fugue, BWV 565


*Thank you for the recommendations Josquin13* - some of them are new to me - some I know - I didn't know the Manze transcription.

I loved that Andrew Manze transcription of Bach's Toccata and Fuge - amazing it can sound like that on a violin. Yes, it's the excentricity and oddity of it that appeals to me: wow can that be done on a small violin. (Like the first time (still wet behind the ears) I heard Bach Sonatas and Partitas for solo violin I couldn't believe that was just one violin playing!).


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## Ethereality

A response to TalkClassical voting Romantic as their favorite period. Bach: _"This is how I intended them to be played, but I didn't think anyone would understand... so I just wrote 'for organ'."_


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## Janspe

Once again I have been completely humbled by a new discovery - yesterday and today I've gone through the six organ sonatas, BWV. 525-530. Some of the most beautiful music I've ever had the privilege of listening to, and it feels like these works - along with some other organ works by the same composer - might turn out to be a new obsession.

Meanwhile, my cantatas project is slowly but steadily moving forward. As before, I feel like my understanding and love for this music is growing by the day. There's so much of it, and still: one never gets tired. I'm absolutely floored by the genius of this composer, and I need to remind myself not to take Bach for granted. I have many projects coming up, if I can find the time to do a lot of listening.

This it what always happens when I'm revising for an exam, something interesting appears from behind the corner... Let's see how good my Chinese is; test starts in two hours!


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## Guest

Janspe said:


> Once again I have been completely humbled by a new discovery - yesterday and today I've gone through the six organ sonatas, BWV. 525-530. Some of the most beautiful music I've ever had the privilege of listening to, and it feels like these works - along with some other organ works by the same composer - might turn out to be a new obsession.
> 
> Meanwhile, my cantatas project is slowly but steadily moving forward. As before, I feel like my understanding and love for this music is growing by the day. There's so much of it, and still: one never gets tired. I'm absolutely floored by the genius of this composer, and I need to remind myself not to take Bach for granted. I have many projects coming up, if I can find the time to do a lot of listening.
> 
> This it what always happens when I'm revising for an exam, something interesting appears from behind the corner... Let's see how good my Chinese is; test starts in two hours!


I too love these works, free counterpoint for three independent voices. The recording I have heard which I think makes the counterpoint most transparent is Kay Johannnsen (Hanssler). There are been transcriptions which try to turn them into conventional trio sonatas with continue, but the one I like is by the Trio Lezard, just three woodwind instruments playing the three melodic lines, as they were written.


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## Guest

Josquin13 said:


> Ras asks, "Are there other transcriptions of Bach's organ music for solo violin?"
> 
> Hi Ras--I have that Onofri disc, and like it, too. He's one of my favorite period violinists. The only other violinist I know that has transcribed Bach's organ music for the solo violin is Andrew Manze, who made his own transcription of the Toccata and Fugue, BWV 565:
> 
> Given how many parts there are, I expect the organ works are extremely difficult to transcribe & play on a single instrument, especially a violin. But Onofri and Manze have managed to pull it off, & amazingly so.


I think the Toccata and Fugue in d minor is a special case, since it is believed to have been transcribed for organ from a solo violin piece. That makes it feasible to imagine the violin piece that formed the basis for it. It is hard to imagine the same being done for a native piece for organ.


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## Guest

Here's another Bach related question. Why is J.S. Bach the only composer that left behind a notable cannon of Cantatas? Bach was required to provide music every Sunday of the ecclesiastical year, weren't other composers doing the same thing? Were their works too insignificant to have survived? (Maybe they do survive in dusty church libraries.) Or was Bach doing something unique?


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## KenOC

Baron Scarpia said:


> Here's another Bach related question. Why is J.S. Bach the only composer that left behind a notable cannon of Cantatas? Bach was required to provide music every Sunday of the ecclesiastical year, weren't other composers doing the same thing? Were their works too insignificant to have survived? (Maybe they do survive in dusty church libraries.) Or was Bach doing something unique?


It appears that Christoph Graupner wrote over 1,400 surviving cantatas, more than Bach, and they were often more detailed and complex as well. This had to do with the forces available to perform them. He was almost exactly contemporary with Bach.


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## Bulldog

KenOC said:


> It appears that Christoph Graupner wrote over 1,400 surviving cantatas, more than Bach, and they were often more detailed and complex as well. This had to do with the forces available to perform them. He was almost exactly contemporary with Bach.


Telemann also wrote more than 1,000 church cantatas. For a few years, he composed 2 for every Sunday.


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## premont

Baron Scarpia said:


> I too love these works, free counterpoint for three independent voices. The recording I have heard which I think makes the counterpoint most transparent is Kay Johannnsen (Hanssler). There are been transcriptions which try to turn them into conventional trio sonatas with continue, but the one I like is by the Trio Lezard, just three woodwind instruments playing the three melodic lines, as they were written.


A look at the score of the organ trio sonatas will quickly convince one that the pedal part most often functions in the same way as a continuo-part in a trio sonata for two melody instruments and basso continuo. The idea of "reconstructing" the presumed original trio sonatas seems therefore close at thought.


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## Guest

It seems like I should have known about those cantatas.  I don't imagine a complete Telemann or Graupner recording is in the works.


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## Guest

premont said:


> A look at the score of the organ trio sonatas will quickly convince one that the pedal part most often functions in the same way as a continuo-part in a trio sonata for two melody instruments and basso continuo. The idea of "reconstructing" the presumed original trio sonatas seems therefore close at thought.


Yes, I have looked at the scores and don't doubt that the bass parts mostly function like a figured bass. My point is I _like_ hearing that exposed bass line without a harpsichord filling in the implied harmonies.


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## tdc

Around 60% of Bach's cantatas have been lost as well as the Mark's Passion which if I remember correctly was the last Passion he composed and would've likely been the most advanced musically.

Christmas Cantata BWV 151


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## Luchesi

tdc said:


> Around 60% of Bach's cantatas have been lost as well as the Mark's Passion which if I remember correctly was the last Passion he composed and would've likely been the most advanced musically.
> 
> Christmas Cantata BWV 151
> 
> [video=youtube;1fUqzmb_logo[/video]


Maybe he went too 'advanced' and friends had to destroy it.


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## tdc

Luchesi said:


> Maybe he went too 'advanced' and friends had to destroy it.


I doubt that. If I was to speculate it was possibly more difficult to perform, and this may have contributed to it falling into disuse and neglect. Around that time Bach began some quarreling with his superiors at Leipzig, one of his grievances was over funds and resources allocated to musical purposes. He was trying to raise the standards of musicianship and performance.


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## Luchesi

tdc said:


> I doubt that. If I was to speculate it was possibly more difficult to perform, and this may have contributed to it falling into disuse and neglect. Around that time Bach began some quarreling with his superiors at Leipzig, one of his grievances was over funds and resources allocated to musical purposes. He was trying to raise the standards of musicianship and performance.


Yes, and when families wrapped cheese it lasted longer without drying up.


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## tdc

Luchesi said:


> Yes, and when families wrapped cheese it lasted longer without drying up.


J.S. Bach meticulously preserved his musical scores, and was revered in his time. Much of the loss of his sacred music was due to a church fire. What some ignorant (or perhaps desperate) people did at different times with his sheet music is unfortunate but part of life. Those were different times. If I recall correctly the man's music in your signature was neglected for quite some time. Had he lived in Bach's time perhaps some of his music would have suffered a similar fate.


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## Luchesi

tdc said:


> J.S. Bach meticulously preserved his musical scores, and was revered in his time. Much of the loss of his sacred music was due to a church fire. What some ignorant (or perhaps desperate) people did at different times with his sheet music is unfortunate but part of life. Those were different times. If I recall correctly the man's music in your signature was neglected for quite some time. Had he lived in Bach's time perhaps some of his music would have suffered a similar fate.


I didn't know that view of it. Thanks.

Yes, Luchesi wrote some clever things; (always using the basic elements of the music theory of that time)


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## tdc

Luchesi said:


> Yes, Luchesi wrote some clever things; (always using the basic elements of the music theory of that time)


I was referring to Gustav Mahler. I thought Luchesi was your name, now I'm aware of a new classical composer, thanks.


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## premont

Baron Scarpia said:


> Yes, I have looked at the scores and don't doubt that the bass parts mostly function like a figured bass. *My point is I like hearing that exposed bass line without a harpsichord filling in the implied harmonies.*


I understand that well. This scoring also sounds more like the organ version.


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## Rik1

I noticed that a recent revonstruction of the Mark Passion is up om imslp. Very kind of the musician who made it to put it up there for free. The score and parts are there. Its wonderful to look through.


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## hammeredklavier

Luchesi said:


> Yes, Luchesi wrote some clever things; (always using the basic elements of the music theory of that time)


This is a gross misrepresentation of his ouevre.










How is he a composer "always using the basic elements of the music theory of his time" and a composer of merely "clever little things" compared to say, Charles Mayer (1799~1862)?


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## flamencosketches

^He did not say "clever little things", by inserting that word, you are changing the meaning of the sentiment completely. Clearly, (poster) Luchesi meant clever as a compliment. And I do not see what dragging this no-name composer Mayer into the equation has to do with anything.


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## hammeredklavier

flamencosketches said:


> Clearly, (poster) Luchesi meant clever as a *compliment.*











_"*always* using the *basic* elements of the music theory of that time."_ -(poster) Luchesi

I'm just asking (poster) Luchesi if he thinks Andrea Luchesi is more of a composer of "clever little things" than Charles Mayer, for example.


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## Chopin Fangirl

.


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## Chopin Fangirl

I like Bach.


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## Saturn

Bach is my favorite composer. I started listening to his orchestral music, concertos and major vocal works as my introduction to CM. It's been the best!


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## Polyphonicus

Found this on youtube, sounds pretty much like Bach, doesn't it?

...by the way, Bach is the greatest - by far!


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## Ralfy

"Music and the Mystery of Aliveness"



> Not long before her hemorrhage, Clemency had made a passionate case for a daily dose of music as "a form of sonic soul maintenance" in her book Year of Wonder: Classical Music to Enjoy Day by Day (public library) - the music counterpart to Tolstoy's Calendar of Wisdom and poet Ross Gay's yearlong journal of delights. She wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> We are a music-making species - always have been, always will be - and music's capacity to explore, express and address what it is to be human remains one of our greatest communal gifts… We evolved by coming together around the fire every night, singing songs and telling stories - invariably, telling stories through singing songs. That's what our ancestors did; that's how they made sense of the world and each other; that's how they learned how to be.
> 
> It is an impulse that is still fundamental to who we are.
Click to expand...


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