# ragtime?



## SarahNorthman (Nov 19, 2014)

I'm not sure this is considered "classical" or not but ragtime....I'm just not a fan. Its just a sound that I don't care for. Your thoughts?


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## DiesIraeCX (Jul 21, 2014)

The 2nd movement of Beethoven's 32nd Piano Sonata (my favorite, by the way) is said to be the very first piece of music to anticipate or prefigure Ragtime/Jazz. Talk about ahead of its time! Well, that's Beethoven for you. 



> "Mitsuko Uchida has remarked that this variation, to a modern ear, has a striking resemblance to cheerful boogie-woogie,[2] and the closeness of it to jazz and ragtime, which were still eighty years into the future at the time, has often been pointed out. Jeremy Denk, for example, describes the second movement using terms like "proto-jazz" and "boogie-woogie".


There are many many articles and discussion on this Piano Sonata and its ties to Ragtime and Jazz.

*Go to 14:21 of this video to hear the "Ragtime" in the 2nd mvt. Performed by Sviatoslav Richter.*


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## SarahNorthman (Nov 19, 2014)

DiesIraeVIX said:


> The 2nd movement of Beethoven's 32nd Piano Sonata (my favorite, by the way) is said to be the very first piece of music to anticipate or prefigure Ragtime/Jazz. Pretty amazing, talk about ahead of its time! Well, that's Beethoven for you.
> 
> There are many many articles and discussion on this Piano Sonata and its ties to Ragtime and Jazz.


I will definitely have to take a listen.


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## Albert7 (Nov 16, 2014)

I am a huge fan of Scott Joplin. Ragtime is pretty cool!


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## SarahNorthman (Nov 19, 2014)

It just has that old timey saloon feeling to me. Just a no bueno here.


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## Posie (Aug 18, 2013)

Whenever the subject of ragtime comes up, I have the Maple Leaf Rag in my head for the next few hours.

If you like jazz, the crossover music from ragtime to jazz may be worth listening to.


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## SarahNorthman (Nov 19, 2014)

marinasabina said:


> Whenever the subject of ragtime comes up, I have the Maple Leaf Rag in my head for the next few hours.


Don't watch that episode of bones then. Wonderful music. Well except.....that exact song.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

A nice modern rag -- Bolcom's Graceful Ghost.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

albertfallickwang said:


> I am a huge fan of Scott Joplin. Ragtime is pretty cool!


Me too. The greatest of them all!


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## Albert7 (Nov 16, 2014)

So a question is: is ragtime more classical or jazz or both?


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## JACE (Jul 18, 2014)

I LOVE ragtme. 

Dick Hyman's complete set of Joplin's rags is INDISPENSIBLE. He puts everyone else in the shade. 

Unfortunately, it's never been reissued on CD. But there is a single CD sampler in print. If you want to be convinced, I'd start there!!!


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Joshua Rifkin. 'nuff said.


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## JACE (Jul 18, 2014)

albertfallickwang said:


> So a question is: is ragtime more classical or jazz or both?


It's not jazz; it's a precursor to jazz.

But I wouldnt call it classical either.


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## Blake (Nov 6, 2013)

JACE said:


> It's not jazz; it's a precursor to jazz.
> 
> But I wouldnt call it classical either.


Yea, it's funny how many would consider this Jazz. But it's more of a quirky little precursor of what was to come. I dig it. Gets my toes tapping, fingers snapping.


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## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

I like it. It's happy music. One side effect is, they used to play it at Disneyland's Carnation Plaza, so I associate ragtime with ice cream. It's not a bad association, though.

As far as Scott Joplin, Dick Hyman has been mentioned as well as Rifkin. Another one to hear after those two is William Albright. He's quirkier than the first two.

Is it classical? It depends on who's writing it. Scott Joplin wanted it to be.

If Erik Satie wrote the rag, it's classical.






If Don Ellis wrote it, it's jazz.






If Irving Berlin wrote it, it's pop. (Unless it's the part Erik Satie ripped it off as the Steamboat Rag in Parade. Then it's back to classical.)


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## Albert7 (Nov 16, 2014)

JACE said:


> It's not jazz; it's a precursor to jazz.
> 
> But I wouldnt call it classical either.


Somehow back when Tower Records used to exist, ragtime got classified with the classical section.


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## Blake (Nov 6, 2013)

albertfallickwang said:


> Somehow back when Tower Records used to exist, ragtime got classified with the classical section.


I saw a commercial the other day that called Led Zeppelin classical....


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

Vesuvius said:


> I saw a commercial the other day that called Led Zeppelin classical....


I hope you would concede that it's a bit different. Ragtime was written music and without improvisation, even if it's not unusual to find someone improvising on a Scott Joplin piece.


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## StlukesguildOhio (Dec 25, 2006)

Ragtime was written music and without improvisation, even if it's not unusual to find someone improvising on a Scott Joplin piece.

Yet didn't Bach, Mozart, and even Beethoven compose music that allowed for improvised passages... or even improvise themselves in performance?


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

yes, and it's possible to find on the other side jazz pieces that actually are without any real improvisation. But at least in general written music with no improvisation is something that would lead to conclude that even if ragtime is a forerunner of what become jazz it belongs to the classical tradition. And besides the example of the piano sonata 111, there's also Gottschalk, who was a classical composer without a doubt and he's considered the grandfather of ragtime.


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## Triplets (Sep 4, 2014)

SarahNorthman said:


> It just has that old timey saloon feeling to me. Just a no bueno here.


When i think of Ragtime, I think of Scott Joplin, although I know he wasn't the only one writng rags. Joplin always maintained that he wanted his music performed with strict respect to the notated time signatures and metronome marks. I suggest trying Joshua Rifkins seminal recordings. He follow Joplin's wishes and the effect is to place the music more in the European Classical Traditiion than other performances do.


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## Figleaf (Jun 10, 2014)

albertfallickwang said:


> Somehow back when Tower Records used to exist, ragtime got classified with the classical section.


That's because superannuated pop tends to get reclassified by record stores first as 'easy listening', then 'nostalgia', then maybe when it gets to be around a century old and the 'nostalgia' tag becomes absurd, perhaps they are tempted to call it classical


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## mtmailey (Oct 21, 2011)

Yes it is classical people been taking music from others to play on the piano like Liszt made Beethoven symphonies in to piano versions.


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