# Death metal



## The Sound Of Perseverance

Hello! So ill admit the only reason i made an account here was to ask a couple of question and also show you QUALITY death metal. I'm going to post a death metal song and can you tell me your opinion?

That was Chuck schuldiner and his band Death who basically started the whole death metal genre
R.I.P chuck 1967-2001

Built from blind faith
Passed down from self-induced fantasy
Turn a page to justify
Conjuring power - it opens wide
On your seventh day,
is that how it's done?
Twisting your eyes to perceive
all that you want
To assume from ignorance
Inflicting wounds with your
cross-turned dagger

[Chorus:]
Inside crystal mountain
Evil takes its form
Inside crystal mountain
Commandments are reborn

All the traps are set to confine
All who get in the way of the divine
In sight and in mind of the hypocrite
A slave to the curse forever confined

[Solo: Schuldiner]

Shatter the myth
Don't cut yourself
On your words against
dreams made of steel
Stronger than any faith
That inflicts pain and fear,
is that how it's done?
Twisting your eyes to perceive
all that you want
To assume from ignorance
Inflicting wounds with a
cross-turned dagger


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## Fugue Meister

Why on earth would you try and peddle such nonsensical garbage here?... of all places (don't death metal forums exist?) 

I'm not trying to be unkind your very spirited to make such a bold post, but why waste your spirit on such rubbish friend, surely you can embrace more elevated music and that's really the reason your here. Now I see this is just your way of reaching out for us absolute music lovers to save you from the dreck you've come to believe is actually music. Well fear not sir with our help here at TC we'll have you singing a different tune in no time... 

(But not to be vague death metal cannot even be compared to absolute music..)


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## GreenMamba

I don't have anything against death metal (although I don't like it), but there's a Non-Classical forum here where this would be more appropriate.


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## aleazk

Oh, geeze, not another one of these... 

Oh, yep! playing fast 'classical scales' (? lol) makes your music classical music!


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## brianvds

Try listening to that and a classical piece - say, John Cage's 4'33" - simultaneously. Now that would be really noisy!

Seriously though, around here internet is hideously expensive and I simply cannot watch all that much online video, so I somewhat reluctantly had to give this a skip. When it comes to "popular" genres, I think I prefer metal to pop of the Bieber variety, mind you. Much of it strikes me as pretty tame compared to Bartok or Prokofiev, though I have noticed that metal fans often also like 20th century classical.


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## Morimur

I'll just say this: death metal can be kinda... Boring?

K, luv you, buh-bye!


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## SONNET CLV

I think I like the music in that video, but I can't be totally sure because I couldn't get the video to play, and I tried everything except click on the white triangle in the middle of the screen. But, hey ... I think I would like the music if I could hear it. And it's probably better than any of that classical Mantovani elevator stuff anyway. But I really have to go now. I'm working on a thread to be titled "Polkas and death metal comparison." Some of those accordion guys can really play fast. And they sing in a foreign language at the same time. Great lyrics. Big complicated Polish words! Awesome, dudes.


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## The Sound Of Perseverance

thank you for the feedback but i don't think i ever said anything like that. i just prefer heavier sounding music do you know of any classical composers that i could try and listen to? here ill post another song


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## Guest

1) Death were not the first death metal band.

2) Later Death in particular is an embarrassment to the genre, and, on their last album, not even remotely a death metal band.

3) What on earth is this doing here?

4) See number (3)

5) I need a cigarette.


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## The Sound Of Perseverance

maybe somethings wrong with your computer? anyways thanks for the feedback!

I'm sorry i offended you i mean the best for everyone! thanks for the feedback!


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## DiesIraeCX

I can forward you to two other threads/sub-forums
- http://www.talkclassical.com/28899-most-metal-moment-all.html
- http://www.talkclassical.com/non-classical-music/

Good luck.


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## The Sound Of Perseverance

hmm i wasn't sure but when i came here i thought that we would all understand each other since both genres a criminally under rated and don't get the attention they deserve. thanks for the feedback anyways!

the problem is that i want classical music fans opinions no offense but if i wanted metal heads opinions i would have stayed on ultimate metal forums but thanks anyways
and this is not supposed to be mean


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## SONNET CLV

The Sound Of Perseverance said:


> thank you for the feedback .... i just prefer heavier sounding music do you know of any classical composers that i could try and listen to?


Actually, the classical world has this death metal guy named Richard Wagner who is pretty good at "heavier sounding music".

Try this: 




You may even have encountered that same music here:


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## The Sound Of Perseverance

here ill post one more video I'm sorry for making this thread guys i was just curious


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## The Sound Of Perseverance

nice! thanks! for the recommendations!


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## Lukecash12

The Sound Of Perseverance said:


> the problem is that i want classical music fans opinions no offense but if i wanted metal heads opinions i would have stayed on ultimate metal forums but thanks anyways
> and this is not supposed to be mean


You're fine, people here can just get stuffy sometimes because we've had similar discussions a number of times before. I mean guys, let's be a little more warm here, it's good when people come to Talk Classical.

As for your music references, I'm normally more into older metal and rock myself because it's so hard to make out the lyrics any more. I understand what you guys mean by classical music and metal being similar because metal, unlike much else out there right now, can use similarly complex harmonic structure.

Probably the main reason this comparison sometimes rankles with classical music appreciators is the difference in form and general intent. Classical music came out of a very different philosophical context and aside from music theory much of the themes that are mentioned and dealt with in classical music are romantic (as in, evoking emotions like heroism, romance, tragedy, etc.), religious, or cerebral. Metal music for the most part deals with solipsistic themes. Now when it comes to form, classical music runs the gamut from short little picturesque scenes with only one or two themes, to large narratives that can have interrelated parts. When we look at metal music we primarily see something around 3-5 minutes with little in the way of a narrative, let alone a narrative told using only musical devices instead of lyrics.


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## starthrower

Fugue Meister said:


> Why on earth would you try and peddle such nonsensical garbage here?... of all places (don't death metal forums exist?)
> 
> I'm not trying to be unkind your very spirited to make such a bold post, but why waste your spirit on such rubbish friend, surely you can embrace more elevated music and that's really the reason your here. Now I see this is just your way of reaching out for us absolute music lovers to save you from the dreck you've come to believe is actually music. Well fear not sir with our help here at TC we'll have you singing a different tune in no time...
> 
> (But not to be vague death metal cannot even be compared to absolute music..)


Snobbery will get you nowhere.


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## The Sound Of Perseverance

oh ok i guess a lot of the metal write their lyrics and songs for shock though Death at least on their last few albums wrote lyrics not many death metal musicians were. my main attraction to extreme music is really just the heavy sound thats why i can barely listen to anything else and like it which sucks! i do like the music the guy above posted that was cool.i understand some people just can't take the vocals but some people are being mean about it! i don't get it!


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## aleazk

The Sound Of Perseverance said:


> the problem is that i want classical music fans opinions no offense but if i wanted metal heads opinions i would have stayed on ultimate metal forums but thanks anyways
> and this is not supposed to be mean... i just prefer heavier sounding music do you know of any classical composers that i could try and listen to?


It's monotonous and immensely boring.





 - Ginastera





 ; 



 - Ligeti





 - Boulez





 ; 



 ; 



 - Chopin





 - Xenakis





 - Furrer





 - Bartók





 - Mahler

Just some random examples.


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## The Sound Of Perseverance

aleazk said:


> It's monotonous and immensely boring.
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> - Ginastera
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> - Ligeti
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> - Boulez
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> - Chopin
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> - Xenakis
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> - Furrer
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> - Bartók
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> - Mahler
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> Just some random examples.


ok i agree i guess but i did like the second guy Ligeti


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## Fugue Meister

starthrower said:


> Snobbery will get you nowhere.


But it's gotten me so many places already! :devil:

JK... I know I feel sort of bad he seems a decent fellow. Apologies for being "assish" toward "The Sound Of Perseverance"'s post.

If I were to play along I would suggest some Bartok string quartets or perhaps some Penderecki or Ligeti I'm sure anyone who enjoys "death metal" can at least appreciate those composers. Try this:






Oh and welcome to TC, sound of perseverance... :tiphat:


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## Lukecash12

The Sound Of Perseverance said:


> oh ok i guess a lot of the metal write their lyrics and songs for shock though Death at least on their last few albums wrote lyrics not many death metal musicians were. my main attraction to extreme music is really just the heavy sound thats why i can barely listen to anything else and like it which sucks! i do like the music the guy above posted that was cool.i understand some people just can't take the vocals but some people are being mean about it! i don't get it!


It's really not what we want to do and I apologize for people being caustic. You're welcome to discuss any music you like in the non classical forum here: http://www.talkclassical.com/non-classical-music/

I can understand why you like intensity in music. For starters, many classical music listeners metal doesn't feel so intense to them because there isn't much contrast. In classical music intense moments are either sudden or they are built up to, in order to leave a lasting impression. But classical music takes a lot of patience and many of it's rewards are anything but immediate. Just like yourself we're addicted to something and we're no better than you just because we have to do things like read and listen a lot to understand our music, it's all ultimately about the pleasure of the listener.

Here is something dramatic and tragic that you might like from classical music:


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## SONNET CLV

The Sound Of Perseverance said:


> hmm i wasn't sure but when i came here i thought that we would all understand each other since both genres a criminally under rated and don't get the attention they deserve. thanks for the feedback anyways!





The Sound Of Perseverance said:


> the problem is that i want classical music fans opinions no offense but if i wanted metal heads opinions i would have stayed on ultimate metal forums but thanks anyways
> and this is not supposed to be mean


Quite frankly, Sound of P, the term "death metal" scares a lot of us older folks. The two words are too close to our consciousness for comfort. I mean, "death" is pretty well self explanatory, especially when one sees it happening all round him to friends he's had for decades. And "metal"? Hey, we all have too much of that in our old frames, either shrapnel from some insane war of the past, or in the form of knee joints, hips, shoulders, spinal columns, you name it. I'm so filled with metal that I have to stay several feet away from my subwoofer or the magnet will pin me to the speaker and I'll have to call 911 for an extraction team.

I'm more comfortable talking punk rock, which I do on occasion over at the NonClassical Music page of this Forum. But if you are really interested in hearing "heavy" classical music, there's a lot of stuff there to take on. I already offered a suggestion concerning Mr. Wagner. (The name is pronounced with a V sound, not a W. Sort of like Vog-ner.)

I'll offer two more pieces for you to sample. They're by another heavy hitter, a feller name of Tchaikovsky.

This first one, the 1812 Overture, starts off pretty calm-like. But it heats up, and when the cannons start firing (Yeah, real heavy metal guns) the whole world explodes:






This next one is a favorite piece of mine, the third movement (section) of Tchaikovsky's great Sixth Symphony. It takes off right from the start and builds up to a climax featuring a battle of scales. Here's a performance from Russia.






Oh ... and welcome to the Forum.

By the way, you might be interested in reading through this thread at the Orchestral Music page of this Forum: http://www.talkclassical.com/28899-most-metal-moment-all.html


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## Igneous01

you know, theres this guy named Schnittke. He can be pretty extreme at times.

For example:


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## mikey

haha this is actually quite light to some of the stuff one of my friends has posted.
I can appreciate the band and the sound is actually quite clean which is always a plus. It's just not something I would choose to listen too.
Ok, so now, you answer me a question - What is the point of listening to someone growling words that you can't understand? I'm trying to think of a classical comparison but I can't. Enlighten me (in all seriousness).


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## Mesenkomaha

I have listened to my fair share of black metal and death metal...doom metal...viking metal whatever. I dont think that anything translates closely to classical music. Maybe some Liszts or Chopin or Rachmaninoff but even then... Piano music is probably the only way to hear that speed from those hardcore metal genres. Violin music doesnt translate for me either with the comparison.

Welcome to TC!


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## BurningDesire

Lope de Aguirre said:


> I've accumulated quite a few infractions lately (thanks, mods) so I'll just say this: death metal can be kinda... Boring?
> 
> K, luv you, buh-bye!
> 
> * See, mods? I am a good boy... Ain't I, mods?


I disagree (I mean in general, of course some of any kind of music can be boring) but I like this post because it calls out some of the absurdity of this forum :3



aleazk said:


> It's monotonous and immensely boring.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> - Ginastera
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ;
> 
> 
> 
> - Ligeti
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> - Boulez
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ;
> 
> 
> 
> ;
> 
> 
> 
> - Chopin
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> - Xenakis
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> - Furrer
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> 
> - Bartók
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> - Mahler
> 
> Just some random examples.


Of course. An entire idiom of music is monotonous and boring, there is no diversity or range of quality.


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## Lukecash12

BurningDesire said:


> Of course. An entire idiom of music is monotonous and boring, there is no diversity or range of quality.


Yes, blanket statements are called blanket statements, methinks, because they are nice and cozy. When we write something off with a blanket statement we get to curl up in that blanket the same as ever.


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## aleazk

BurningDesire said:


> Of course. An entire idiom of music is monotonous and boring, there is no diversity or range of quality.


I was actually referring to the thing posted in the OP.

But, anyway, it's true that it's not a genre of music I find interesting to be honest.


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## Stargazer

I watched 30 seconds of that video, and I think I'm going to have a headache for the rest of the day now . I never understood what the deal was with the weird screaming thing that those people do...why do they scream in a funky voice instead of just singing normally?


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## Perotin

3rd movement from 8th symphony by Shostakovich always reminds me of metal music.


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## The Sound Of Perseverance

Stargazer said:


> I watched 30 seconds of that video, and I think I'm going to have a headache for the rest of the day now . I never understood what the deal was with the weird screaming thing that those people do...why do they scream in a funky voice instead of just singing normally?


its ok! its an acquired taste! I've only been into death metal for somewhere around 8 months you don't have to like it


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## The Sound Of Perseverance

i could see why you think i would like that but i don't like that at all. its way to bitter for my tastes! thanks anyways

yes.... this makes sense. You now id say the reason i don't really find that much enjoyment out of your guys music is because of the complex song structures (maybe not as complex as yours though!) there comes a heavier sound I'm not totally sure could you explain? i like the video!

Thats alright Death metal is very hard to get into and his often poorly mis understood most people think its a bunch of blithering idiots yelling in anger for no reason. except in contrast its EXTREMELY hard to right good death metal. The guitar is hard work but the growling can be even harder..... Chuck was doing both at the same time. the vocalist from obscura does vocals and guitar at the same time



mikey said:


> haha this is actually quite light to some of the stuff one of my friends has posted.
> I can appreciate the band and the sound is actually quite clean which is always a plus. It's just not something I would choose to listen too.
> Ok, so now, you answer me a question - What is the point of listening to someone growling words that you can't understand? I'm trying to think of a classical comparison but I can't. Enlighten me (in all seriousness).


Death metal can be hard to get into because of the vocals! its just something that will grow on you to the point you'll enjoy them. often for me the vocals will be the make or break for a band.

here this is another of chuck schuldiners projects though he died before he could carry through with the 2nd album


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## Crudblud

The only death metal album I would consider among my favourites is Atheist's _Unquestionable Presence_. Most metal I can take or leave, but the compositions on that album are fantastic, and the musicianship is at a very high standard while avoiding the overly polished and robotic sound that seems to dominate metal these days.

Also, you might like this:


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## Morimur

BoOoOoOoOoOoOoOoOoOoOoO!


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## Posie

Are there any death metal bands with singers that DON'T sound like screeching geese? If not, I'm going back to Queen.


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## Marschallin Blair

marinasabina said:


> Are there any death metal bands with singers that DON'T sound like screeching geese? If not, I'm going back to Queen.


Nightwish. . . for starters.


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## Morimur

marinasabina said:


> Are there any death metal bands with singers that DON'T sound like screeching geese? If not, I'm going back to Queen.


********NO********


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## brianvds

Metal and classical are perhaps difficult to compare - they are different genres with different aims and aesthetics. 

Classical has delivered its share of dark music, but as others have pointed out, it often requires a bit of patience from the listener. Keep in mind that classical pieces often have a lot of ups and downs of tempo and volume. Something like Rachmaninov's "Isle of the dead" may appeal to you, because of its overall darkness, but it is slow moving and much of it is quite soft. 

Another one to try: the second movement of Shostakovich's tenth symphony (supposedly a musical portrait of Stalin, and it's not a pretty sight!  )


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## maestro267

What's with all the metal threads on a classical forum? I know there's a "general music" part of the forum, but so much of that is metal. Why the obsession with it? If anything, classical lovers should be more into prog, what with their similarities.


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## Crudblud

maestro267 said:


> What's with all the metal threads on a classical forum? I know there's a "general music" part of the forum, but so much of that is metal. Why the obsession with it? If anything, classical lovers should be more into prog, what with their similarities.


When someone tells me what I should be listening to, I get the impression that they have strange ideas about music.


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## Guest

I get that some people think there is some kind of crossover appeal between metal and classical - they have an agenda to push. But I come to a classical music forum to learn more about - now this is a huge logical leap, I know, but stay with me - classical music. Not prog rock. Not death metal. Not doom metal. Not Norwegian metal with pseudo-operatic singings. Not metal with guys doing their best interpretation of Cookie Monster on meth with a week-long jonesing for some Pepperidge Farms Milanos.

They are different genres. It's as simple as that. Are there similarities? Sure. In both, instruments are played. But chord progressions, complex rhythms, and sometimes pseudo-operatic singing does not classical music-like make.


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## stevens

Death metal is very impressive, awesome and overwhelming music... for 12 year kids


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## The Sound Of Perseverance

I am sadenned by some of your disrespectful comments. In my opinion classical is one of the best genres and I do my best to enjoyment. Some of you act like immature children and purposefully misunderstand death metal. I wouldn't expect this from people who actually have good taste in music and don't listen to modern pop and stuff like that. Thank you to the people who are responding. But I still have. A question about the video I posted, are you impressed by his ability to do vocals and guitar at the same time and growling is extremely hard to do correctly


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## Guest

The Sound Of Perseverance said:


> I am sadenned by some of your disrespectful comments. In my opinion classical is one of the best genres and I do my best to enjoyment. Some of you act like immature children and purposefully misunderstand death metal. I wouldn't expect this from people who actually have good taste in music and don't listen to modern pop and stuff like that. Thank you to the people who are responding. But I still have. A question about the video I posted, are you impressed by his ability to do vocals and guitar at the same time and growling is extremely hard to do correctly


Playing guitar and singing simultaneously is something that many people have been doing for a very long time - probably at least since there have been guitars.

Growling is extremely hard to do correctly? What is the wrong way to growl? My son does a very good growl - he is 9. The use of the death images and the anti-religion (specifically Christianity) strikes me as juvenile behavior hoping to shock and be provocative. Like a kid reveling in his new-found ability to utter profanity and shock people. Can they play their instruments? Yes. But that is not the only requirement for making good music.


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## Guest

I guess my big question is what am I misunderstanding about death metal? What is the larger message I should be taking from it? What is it that should so impress me? You are communicating with people here who listen to singers who have devoted their lives to making their voice a musical instrument of such beauty that it can bring a person to tears - and you offer them men growling and screeching to distorted guitars and heavy drum beats. I listen to music so sublime that it gives me a glimpse of heaven, and you seek to divert my attention to men growling about hell. 

What is the appeal?


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## Guest

I am impressed by these vocals:





Not growling, or screeching, or any of the other "singing" forms of death metal.


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## millionrainbows

A Harmonic Analysis of "Metal" Music

"Heavy" rock evolved out of blues music. This was a mainly British phenomenon, with groups such as Cream, Deep Purple, and others.

What heavy rock took from blues was: the pentatonic scale, usually the minor variety.

What it changed: it used a 4/4 rock beat, instead of the 12/8 three-division "shuffle" or jazz beat. This is a conservatively Western (white man) approach to rhythm.

It eventually turned the minor pentatonic sound into a "minor-scale" sound, which was no great leap. This is also a Western conservative move.

Metal rock is tonal in the broad sense of being tone-centric; however, it does not have "harmonic functions" as tonality does, except in the most rudimentary sense, such as simple V-I's. 

This lack of function is due to the fact that metal music is primarily melodic; its "chords" (usually simple root/fifth diads) derive their apparent "root movement" from melodic considerations, usually outlining a pentatonic scale.

I see metal music as harmonically and rhythmically conservative, and very "white" in the sense that although it derives from black blues, it eschews most of the complex non-Western (African) features in favor of a simian simplicity.

In other words, boring, simplistic music for boring adolescents.


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## Antiquarian

DrMike said:


> I get that some people think there is some kind of crossover appeal between metal and classical - they have an agenda to push. But I come to a classical music forum to learn more about - now this is a huge logical leap, I know, but stay with me - classical music. Not prog rock. Not death metal. Not doom metal. Not Norwegian metal with pseudo-operatic singings. Not metal with guys doing their best interpretation of Cookie Monster on meth with a week-long jonesing for some Pepperidge Farms Milanos.
> 
> They are different genres. It's as simple as that. Are there similarities? Sure. In both, instruments are played. But chord progressions, complex rhythms, and sometimes pseudo-operatic singing does not classical music-like make.


I completely and wholeheartedly agree with this post; it makes any reply I might make redundant. Oh, and congrats on passing 2000 posts.


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## Marschallin Blair

The appeal of some metal to me is the sense of life-- to wit, the "'yes' sense of life" as I call it: power, assertion, confidence, pride, and drive.

The "'yes' sense of life" as opposed to, say, the "'no' sense of life"-- unvirtues such as turning the other cheek, loving those who spitefully use and persecute you, and crucifying yourself daily.

When I think 'metal,' I think Claire Boothe Luce: "I hope I shall have ambition until the day I die."

Amen.


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## Guest

DrMike said:


> Playing guitar and singing simultaneously is something that many people have been doing for a very long time - probably at least since there have been guitars.
> 
> Growling is extremely hard to do correctly? What is the wrong way to growl? My son does a very good growl - he is 9. The use of the death images and the anti-religion (specifically Christianity) strikes me as juvenile behavior hoping to shock and be provocative. Like a kid reveling in his new-found ability to utter profanity and shock people. Can they play their instruments? Yes. But that is not the only requirement for making good music.


This. The only way Chuck could impress me is if he could play guitar and do vocals at the same time with interesting music he composed. Sadly, Death ranges from "kill it with fire" at worst to second tier at best.


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## Guest

marinasabina said:


> Are there any death metal bands with singers that DON'T sound like screeching geese? If not, I'm going back to Queen.

















etc.


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## Guest

Marschallin Blair said:


> The appeal of some metal to me is the sense of life-- to wit, the "'yes' sense of life" as I call it: power, assertion, confidence, pride, and drive.
> 
> The "'yes' sense of life" as opposed to, say, the "'no' sense of life"-- unvirtues such as turning the other cheek, loving those who spitefully use and persecute you, and crucifying yourself daily.
> 
> When I think 'metal,' I think Claire Boothe Luce: "I hope I shall have ambition until the day I die."
> 
> Amen.


You strike me as someone very taken by the philosophical musings of one Ayn Rand.

You talk about the power that you get from this music - and yet it is merely the output of some less than well-known band stuck in some backwater sub-genre of rock that most people have never, and will never encounter. In other words, not power, but merely a facade of power.


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## The Sound Of Perseverance

You know what I think in finished anyone can growl but not all correctly you should probably tell your son to stop he's hurting himself I'll post more videos in a second of more complex death metal. Thank you for everyone's contributions to this thread


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## Guest

The Sound Of Perseverance said:


> I'll post more videos in a second of more complex death metal.


I'm sure we're all still digesting the current links.


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## Guest

arcaneholocaust said:


> etc.


So my options are incomprehensible screeching or incomprehensible growling?


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## Guest

The Sound Of Perseverance said:


> You know what I think in finished anyone can growl but not all correctly you should probably tell your son to stop he's hurting himself I'll post more videos in a second of more complex death metal. Thank you for everyone's contributions to this thread


Oh, believe me, I have told him to stop growling. Someone should tell these others as well.


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## Guest

DrMike said:


> So my options are incomprehensible screeching or incomprehensible growling?


In the subgenre of death metal, yes. In metal, no.

Just like my options are pretty limited if I want opera in my own language only.

Seriously, it seems incredibly ironic to pull the "I can't understand the lyrics" card on a classical music forum. I understand all the other arguments. It's not for everyone - I barely even want it any more. But don't try that one...


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## The Sound Of Perseverance

Im sorry for trying to show you death metal but in he end it's an aquired taste of music and I can't convince fools that they are not always right. For a fool will only be convinced of his faults when he dies a fools death and then it won't even matter. Thank you for Your time my friends. I hope some of you cure your superiority complex some day. Thank you to people who actually answered what I asked to the rest, good luck


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## Guest

The Sound Of Perseverance said:


> Im sorry for trying to show you death metal but in he end it's an aquired taste of music and I can't convince fools that they are not always right. For a fool will only be convinced of his faults when he dies a fools death and then it won't even matter. Thank you for Your time my friends. I hope some of you cure your superiority complex some day. Thank you to people who actually answered what I asked to the rest, good luck


Oh, I have no doubt I will die a fool. I have resigned myself to that fate - but in choosing classical music over less fulfilling options, I feel that in this area I have no longer let the myriad options that pass as "music" make a fool of me.

Funny you talk of superiority complexes of others, after labeling those of us fools who don't share your passion for death metal.


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## Guest

arcaneholocaust said:


> In the subgenre of death metal, yes. In metal, no.
> 
> Just like my options are pretty limited if I want opera in my own language only.
> 
> Seriously, it seems incredibly ironic to pull the "I can't understand the lyrics" card on a classical music forum. I understand all the other arguments. It's not for everyone - I barely even want it any more. But don't try that one...


I think there is a difference between singing in a different language and singing in an incomprehensible voice. With singing in a different language, you aren't trying to make yourself incomprehensible. That would be like comparing a book written in a foreign language to chicken scratch. The two are not comparable.

But even more to the point - I don't really want to know what they are saying in the death metal. The subject matter is not appealing. I am not sure it is even meant to be appealing - if so, my apologies.

I spent my early years listening to angry music that was pissed off with the world and tried to stick their thumb in the eye of adults, and the establishment. I thought they were so wise. Then it turned out they were just peddling rebellion to make money, and that their rhetoric was pretty empty. The first time I went to a concert and realized how much older I was than the kids around me, and how these rebellious youth were showing up in their designer rebellious clothing cheering on empty platitudes of rebellion, I realized it was no longer for me. Now I wanted things that actually left me feeling better afterwards.


----------



## Marschallin Blair

DrMike said:


> You strike me as someone very taken by the philosophical musings of one Ayn Rand.
> 
> You talk about the power that you get from this music - and yet it is merely the output of some less than well-known band stuck in some backwater sub-genre of rock that most people have never, and will never encounter. In other words, not power, but merely a facade of power.


The music_ inspires _me, as all great music should.

But _tu quoque_.

Judging from the constantly smuggled-in religious value judgements of your posts, you strike me as someone fixated on Evangelical Christianity.

I love Ayn Rand, certainly. How _couldn't_ I? But I'm certainly not an Objectivist. . .

But what accrues to me in my life comes from the productive power of my mind and not as manna from heaven. . .

Incidentally, some people should get out of their parochial, cultic comfort zones. America isn't the 'whole wide world.' For the record, Immortal is a huge success over in Europe.

Just a thought.


----------



## julianoq

I have some sympathy for you, because I liked metal (Death, Atheist, etc) a lot before starting to enjoy classical.

Looks like you came here expecting us to confirm your ego-investment on the metal genre and say "yes, this music is great indeed" and is not happy with the responses. Sorry, but I have to agree with the majority.

But I will post here the first movement of Mahler's second symphony. It was the single piece of music that convinced me that classical music was so much cooler than everything that I was listening. Actually, on my ignorance, I remember to think "wow, they have some pretty good riffs here!"


----------



## Marschallin Blair

> julianoq: Looks like you came here expecting us to confirm your ego-investment on the metal genre and say "yes, this music is great indeed" and is not happy with the responses. Sorry, but I have to agree with the majority.


_Nope. Niet. Nein._

Approval neither required nor desired.

You're psychologically projecting your proselytizing views onto others.

I merely love to share and discuss the music I love.

. . . and. . . incidentally: When was a majority right about anything? Were they right about condeming Socrates to death or just about Jesus?


----------



## Crudblud

Lope de Aguirre said:


> I liked Atheist's last album, Jupiter.


It wasn't bad, I felt it fairly mediocre compared to their first three, which is to be expected given the amount of time between _Elements_ and _Jupiter_, but it wasn't only for the aging Kelly Schafer's undeniably diminishing vocal capabilities, and of course his inability to play the complicated lead guitar anymore owing to his carpal tunnel syndrome. My main problem with it is it felt retrograde, like they were trying to recapture what made the old stuff so good instead of adapting and going in new directions as they had done previously. You can follow the trail from _Piece of Time _to _Unquestionable Presence _to _Elements_ and see that they never really repeated themselves yet their music remained characterful, whereas _Jupiter_ almost comes off like pastiche or self-parody. Again, not a bad album all things considered, but disappointing based on their prior body of work.


----------



## julianoq

Marschallin Blair said:


> _Nope. Niet. Nein._
> 
> Approval neither required nor desired.
> 
> You're psychologically projecting your proselytizing views onto others.
> 
> I merely love to share and discuss the music I love.
> 
> . . . and. . . incidentally: When was a majority right about anything? Were they right about condeming Socrates to death or just about Jesus?


Hi Marschallin Blair, my reply was not directed at you, but to the OP (The Sound Of Perseverance).


----------



## Morimur

Not matter the subject, we'll always find a way to bring it back to religion, won't we?

*** You see that, mods? I held back. Can I get my points back now?


----------



## Guest

DrMike said:


> I think there is a difference between singing in a different language and singing in an incomprehensible voice. With singing in a different language, you aren't trying to make yourself incomprehensible. That would be like comparing a book written in a foreign language to chicken scratch. The two are not comparable.
> 
> But even more to the point - I don't really want to know what they are saying in the death metal. The subject matter is not appealing. I am not sure it is even meant to be appealing - if so, my apologies.
> 
> I spent my early years listening to angry music that was pissed off with the world and tried to stick their thumb in the eye of adults, and the establishment. I thought they were so wise. Then it turned out they were just peddling rebellion to make money, and that their rhetoric was pretty empty. The first time I went to a concert and realized how much older I was than the kids around me, and how these rebellious youth were showing up in their designer rebellious clothing cheering on empty platitudes of rebellion, I realized it was no longer for me. Now I wanted things that actually left me feeling better afterwards.


I agree with 1) the notion that I'd rather not understand every poorly written metal lyric and 2) the immaturity of the metal attitude.

However, the vocals are being used more as a rhythmic instrument and an added timbre - this viewpoint works better for me.

For the record, I had a massive collection of pirated metal mp3s spanning every little corner of the genre, but given the space limitations of a wonderful 160GB iPod, the collection gets smaller and smaller every time I have some new classical music to make room for. However, I don't intend to deny the massive influence a small group of records had on my interest in music. The essential canon will probably stay for a long time.


----------



## Marschallin Blair

> julianoq: Hi Marschallin Blair, my reply was not directed at you, but to the OP (The Sound Of Perseverance).


Soooooooooooooooooooooor-reeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee.

:/

God I feel sheepish.

<Tutti of TC Chorus: "Blonde!">


----------



## Guest

Lope is such a sweet lil teddy bear once you get to know him.

All he ever wanted was a Stockhausen box set and a friend!


----------



## The Sound Of Perseverance

It's much easier to hear what there saying in death metal than you might think you have to keep listening to it. I don't why a lot of you guys make fun of death metal vocalists. They sacrifice their voices just to make the music they like and have a passion for. And a lot of metal bands will take advice from their fans.


----------



## norman bates

Stargazer said:


> I watched 30 seconds of that video, and I think I'm going to have a headache for the rest of the day now . I never understood what the deal was with the weird screaming thing that those people do...why do they scream in a funky voice instead of just singing normally?


I wonder if you consider the operatic style more natural.


----------



## Cheyenne

The Sound Of Perseverance said:


> i just prefer heavier sounding music do you know of any classical composers that i could try and listen to?


There are many people have this. I don't want to speak about it as if it's a problem, but I do recommend that you try to widen your tastes. Stop all the loud noises for a minute, sit back, sigh calmly, and put on some more "serene" music -- something like this. I don't want to tell you what to listen to, pick whatever you like: but if you, like me, have a stormy temperament, it may be very good for you.



Marschallin Blair said:


> The appeal of some metal to me is the sense of life-- to wit, the "'yes' sense of life" as I call it: power, assertion, confidence, pride, and drive.
> 
> The "'yes' sense of life" as opposed to, say, the "'no' sense of life"-- unvirtues such as turning the other cheek, loving those who spitefully use and persecute you, and crucifying yourself daily.
> 
> When I think 'metal,' I think Claire Boothe Luce: "I hope I shall have ambition until the day I die."


It's funny you have a Carlyle quote in your signature: that post reminds me of Carlyle's talk of the Everlasting No and Everlasting Yea:

O Heavens! and broken with manifold merciful Afflictions, even till thou become contrite and learn it! Oh, thank thy Destiny for these; thankfully bear what yet remain: thou hadst need of them; the Self in thee needed to be annihilated. By benignant fever-paroxysms is Life rooting out the deep-seated chronic Disease, and triumphs over Death. On the roaring billows of Time, thou art not engulfed, but borne aloft into the azure of Eternity. Love not Pleasure; love God. This is the EVERLASTING YEA, wherein all contradiction is solved: wherein whoso walks and works, it is well with him.​


The Sound Of Perseverance said:


> I don't why a lot of you guys make fun of death metal vocalists. They sacrifice their voices just to make the music they like and have a passion for.


In all seriousness (I don't really know anything about metal), is that why old Metal singers often sound like they spent all their lives smoking? Listen to this!

Is it really possible to train you ear to what they're singing? I honestly can't comprehend a word of the first video you posted


----------



## Morimur

arcaneholocaust said:


> Lope is such a sweet lil teddy bear once you get to know him.
> 
> All he ever wanted was a Stockhausen box set and a friend!


You've got me figured out. Though I can do without a friend, but I MUST get my grubby paws on a Stocky box set!


----------



## Guest

Fascinating the things that happen whilst one is innocently getting up at five a.m. and running about Split trying to find a bus stop for 37, which is the local bus that goes to the airport for 12 kuna as opposed to the 300 I paid a taxi when 37 proved too elusive from where I was staying in that fine town. Not to mention the hours on the plane and then going to lunch with my son in Barcelona and then reading emails and such. Oops. Too late.

Anyway, here I am, at the end of a metal bashing thread. Well, there's been some poster bashing, too. The "I wanted your opinions but when I got them I didn't like them" poster bashing. You know. If you ask for opinions, and then you get opinions, I don't see that you have any grounds for complaint.

So. Thread duty. I didn't find the metal examples so far to be all that extreme.

I prefer this metal to the metal presented so far:






But I like this even more:






And this:






Play these as loud as possible. And on a good system, but not too good. Too good and you have to deal with Youtube's fidelity limitations. And I'm not talking marital.

EDIT: sorry for sending y'all to youtube. There are high fidelity (perhaps also marital) sites, too. Like Soundcloud:


__
https://soundcloud.com/franciscomeirino%2Fan-extended-extract-of-a-1


__
https://soundcloud.com/franciscomeirino%2Fzbigniew-karkowski-francisco


__
https://soundcloud.com/pdis_inpartmaint%2F60zbigniew-karkowski-nerve

These you can play as loud as you like on the finest system available.


----------



## Guest

Marschallin Blair said:


> The music_ inspires _me, as all great music should.
> 
> But _tu quoque_.
> 
> Judging from the constantly smuggled-in religious value judgements of your posts, you strike me as someone fixated on Evangelical Christianity.
> 
> I love Ayn Rand, certainly. How _couldn't_ I? But I'm certainly not an Objectivist. . .
> 
> But what accrues to me in my life comes from the productive power of my mind and not as manna from heaven. . .
> 
> Incidentally, some people should get out of their parochial, cultic comfort zones. America isn't the 'whole wide world.' For the record, Immortal is a huge success over in Europe.
> 
> Just a thought.


I wasn't passing judgment on your fondness for Rand - merely that your statement sounded very much like her objectivist ideology, particularly as manifested in Atlas Shrugged. I have read some of her works - Atlas, Fountainhead, and Anthem. At times I found her prose excruciating, some of her ideas interesting, others absurd. She seemed too extreme in the opposite direction from that which she despised. And yes, I didn't like her not so thinly veiled contempt for religion.

As for me - no practitioner of Evangelical Christianity. More likely it would be labeled restorationist Christianity - Mormon. As to smuggling in judgments, I take offense at that. I like to think that my judgments are out in the open, and no attempt at smuggling them in has been made. But the subject matter of the music here is only tangential to my distaste for it. Without a cheat sheet nearby, I wouldn't even know what they were saying. But since it is many times blatantly anti-Christian, why would I want to hear it? It's not like it is philosophically anti-Christian - I gain no insights by listening to the lyrics. Rather it is knee-jerk anti-Christian. It is the argumentative equivalent of "your church is stupid!"

I also didn't know this was a national pissing contest - I thought we were comparing classical to death metal. What, pray tell, constitutes "a huge success over in Europe?" Tell me, the average person in the street in Prague, or Vienna, or Zurich, or Berlin, or Paris, or Copenhagen, or any European city - what are they more likely to hum for you - the first movement of Beethoven's 5th symphony, or One by One by Immortal? How much radio play does Immortal get? Multiple songs on multiple stations? Multiple play on one station? Or can you hear them once in a long while if you constantly keep the radio on? Whether they are famous in Europe or America is really not germane to this discussion.


----------



## Cheyenne

some guy said:


> I prefer this metal to the metal presented so far:


Look, I'm just asking for honest help. I can't hear what the guy's saying at all -- _at all_. Am I not supposed to? Am I supposed to read along with the lyrics? In that case, what's the point of the lyrics?

Burning of the Defeated
Dragging The fettered Rebels
To the Block of Slaughter

Decapitated Headless
Naked and Bound
Captives Adorn my Shield

etc. etc.​
Are they supposed to be random, gruesome acts? Is there some structure, some context, I am missing? Does it have a larger significance?

I'm being completely honest -- I don't mean to provoke. I'm just confused. I don't know _how_ to listen to it, I guess.


----------



## The Sound Of Perseverance

Cheyenne said:


> There are many people have this. I don't want to speak about it as if it's a problem, but I do recommend that you try to widen your tastes. Stop all the loud noises for a minute, sit back, sigh calmly, and put on some more "serene" music -- something like this. I don't want to tell you what to listen to, pick whatever you like: but if you, like me, have a stormy temperament, it may be very good for you.
> 
> It's funny you have a Carlyle quote in your signature: that post reminds me of Carlyle's talk of the Everlasting No and Everlasting Yea:
> 
> O Heavens! and broken with manifold merciful Afflictions, even till thou become contrite and learn it! Oh, thank thy Destiny for these; thankfully bear what yet remain: thou hadst need of them; the Self in thee needed to be annihilated. By benignant fever-paroxysms is Life rooting out the deep-seated chronic Disease, and triumphs over Death. On the roaring billows of Time, thou art not engulfed, but borne aloft into the azure of Eternity. Love not Pleasure; love God. This is the EVERLASTING YEA, wherein all contradiction is solved: wherein whoso walks and works, it is well with him.​
> In all seriousness (I don't really know anything about metal), is that why old Metal singers often sound like they spent all their lives smoking? Listen to this!
> 
> Is it really possible to train you ear to what they're singing? I honestly can't comprehend a word of the first video you posted


Yes it is! That's why the death metal community is huge today because more people are willing to train their ears and yes if you look up George "corpse grinder" fisher he sounds like an old man who has smoked his entire life! Any more question


----------



## aleazk

I don't have any problem with 'demonic' sounding music and 'growl'-like sounds. But in metal music, the silly harmonies, rhythms and melodies really kill the effect and mood for me. As millionrainbows said, some of the aspects of this music are simply too boring for a classical music listener. And this is not because we are 'enlightened' people, we are simply aware that there's more interesting music.

Demons?, sure:

Stockhausen - Luzifers Abschied

Ligeti - Requiem


----------



## Guest

Marschallin Blair said:


> . . . and. . . incidentally: When was a majority right about anything? Were they right about condeming Socrates to death or just about Jesus?


I don't think he was referring to you.

At any rate, let's take your statement above and examine it. When WAS a majority right about anything? Good question. As it just so happens, there have been numerous examples. For example:

When the Civil Rights Act of 1964 was passed, by a MAJORITY.

When a majority of the citizens of the United States voted for a president (Lincoln) who opposed slavery.

The majority typically believes that murder and theft are wrong.

Historically speaking, Christianity is not the majority - quit thinking so parochially. There is a large chunk of this planet that still is not Christian.

The majority of Europe was opposed to Hitler, as was the United States.

Rather say that the majority is not always right.


----------



## DeepR

This isn't exactly the first time this has showed up. I almost start to think some metal fans have an inferiority complex about metal music... they keep making comparisons to classical music, to feel better about metal music, I guess... because when it's comparable to classical, then it must be good music! Just enjoy what you like I would say. Or, listen to more classical music to get a better perspective on this silly comparison.


----------



## Guest

Cheyenne said:


> Look, I'm just asking for honest help.


Hey Cheyenne, I wasn't addressing any of my post to (or even at) you.

The only honest help I can offer is to say that I don't listen to Nile for the lyrics. And I find them distracting when I read them. I'm more interested in the guitar and drum work. (My oldest son plays bass; my middle son plays guitar; my youngest son plays drums. And I have gone to Nile and Primus concerts with them, for example.)

But, like I said, I prefer the other stuff. Though I don't really regret the tinnitus I got from the Nile concert. Well, sometimes I do. What? (I'm kidding. I heard you. But really. WHAT?)


----------



## SONNET CLV

Lope de Aguirre said:


> You've got me figured out. Though I can do without a friend, but I MUST get my grubby paws on a Stocky box set!
> 
> View attachment 49197


If you had a couple of friends, you might not need the Stocky box set. A couple friends could clap while another beats on pots and pans. There you have _Momente _by Stockhausen. It shouldn't take much imagination to play the other pieces as well. I'll even be your friend in order to participate in this "concert".


----------



## The Sound Of Perseverance

What is satanic sounding music to you guys? What classifies it as satanic music? Have you heard a demon before? Do they growl I'm curious


----------



## SONNET CLV

The Sound Of Perseverance said:


> What is satanic sounding music to you guys? What classifies it as satanic music? Have you heard a demon before? Do they growl I'm curious


Chrome? From the black "Chrome box"? (That's a treasure in my LP collection.)









Still, I get the feeling after reading through this thread that I have to wash out my ears with a strong soap, and then settle down with a Mozart quartet. Ah ...


----------



## Cheyenne

The Sound Of Perseverance said:


> What is satanic sounding music to you guys? What classifies it as satanic music? Have you heard a demon before? Do they growl I'm curious


Well, someone did link me this funny music video of The Black Satans - The Satanic Darkness once.. It sounds pretty Satanic :lol: I must say Metal music often is very humorous -- usually intentionally too.



some guy said:


> Hey Cheyenne, I wasn't addressing any of my post to (or even at) you.
> 
> The only honest help I can offer is to say that I don't listen to Nile for the lyrics. And I find them distracting when I read them. I'm more interested in the guitar and drum work. (My oldest son plays bass; my middle son plays guitar; my youngest son plays drums. And I have gone to Nile and Primus concerts with them, for example.)


Ah, I see. I'll try and forget about the lyrics then, thanks!


----------



## Guest

The Sound Of Perseverance said:


> What is satanic sounding music to you guys? What classifies it as satanic music? Have you heard a demon before? Do they growl I'm curious


I, personally, haven't said that it was satanic. I think these guys are more likely atheists. I have said anti-Christian. I don't know what a demon sounds like. If they existed, I imagine they would be more interested in deceiving me than growling at me, so they would probably sound very fair.

I think you are just going to have to get used to the fact that a lot of people on this forum are not going to be keen on death metal. They aren't going to like death metal screeching or growling - no matter how artistic the growling is (and I can't believe I even had to say that). Your theory here is just a bit too far-fetched for many fans of classical music that didn't have some earlier exposure to death metal. Many people turn to classical because they don't really like stuff like death metal. You can attempt to make strained comparisons all you like, but it looks like grasping. Go on liking death metal. Nobody is telling you you shouldn't. But you are the one who first came on with the agenda to convert. Accept that you have not swayed many to your idea and move on. If you'd like advice on classical, you will get pages and pages of suggestions, not only works, but specific recordings. Suggest a style you might like, and you'll get even more targeted recommendations. But trying to sell us on the notion that death metal and classical are kissing cousins? Not gonna happen.


----------



## The Sound Of Perseverance

DrMike said:


> I, personally, haven't said that it was satanic. I think these guys are more likely atheists. I have said anti-Christian. I don't know what a demon sounds like. If they existed, I imagine they would be more interested in deceiving me than growling at me, so they would probably sound very fair.
> 
> I think you are just going to have to get used to the fact that a lot of people on this forum are not going to be keen on death metal. They aren't going to like death metal screeching or growling - no matter how artistic the growling is (and I can't believe I even had to say that). Your theory here is just a bit too far-fetched for many fans of classical music that didn't have some earlier exposure to death metal. Many people turn to classical because they don't really like stuff like death metal. You can attempt to make strained comparisons all you like, but it looks like grasping. Go on liking death metal. Nobody is telling you you shouldn't. But you are the one who first came on with the agenda to convert. Accept that you have not swayed many to your idea and move on. If you'd like advice on classical, you will get pages and pages of suggestions, not only works, but specific recordings. Suggest a style you might like, and you'll get even more targeted recommendations. But trying to sell us on the notion that death metal and classical are kissing cousins? Not gonna happen.


ok i guess you're right ill back off but not before i post 1 more video of an interview with chuck schuldiner


----------



## julianoq

DeepR said:


> This isn't exactly the first time this has showed up. I almost start to think some metal fans have an inferiority complex about metal music... they keep making comparisons to classical music, to feel better about metal music, I guess... because when it's comparable to classical, then it must be good music! Just enjoy what you like I would say. Or, listen to more classical music to get a better perspective on this silly comparison.


Talking from my experience, I think that a lot of metal listeners, specially when young, think that metal is superior/more complex than other kinds of music. And then, for some reason, they think that classical music listeners would understand the amazing quality and complexity of metal. I was one of these guys years ago.


----------



## Marschallin Blair

> DrMike: I wasn't passing judgment on your fondness for Rand - merely that your statement sounded very much like her objectivist ideology, particularly as manifested in Atlas Shrugged


You can pass judgement upon anyone or anything you want-- its called 'rationality.'_;D_ Even people who profess not to judge others do it every day, even in this very Forum.

Ayn Rand's philosophy isn't any more an ideology than is that of Socrates. They're merely instances--- one literary and one dialectical--- of inductive and deductive chains of reasoning; and the consequences of making those choices.



> At times I found her prose excruciating, some of her ideas interesting, others absurd. She seemed too extreme in the opposite direction from that which she despised. And yes, I didn't like her not so thinly veiled contempt for religion


Perhaps you'll be so kind as to furnish some examples of the"absurdity" and of the "thinly-veiled contempt for religion" in the works of hers you just mentioned (_Atlas Shrugged, The Fountainhead, _and _Anthem_)--- works you professedly have read-- because there aren't any such examples. If there's any 'contempt' mentioned in these works, its the demonstrable contempt mystics afford reason and reality.



> What, pray tell, constitutes "a huge success over in Europe?" Tell me, the average person in the street in Prague, or Vienna, or Zurich, or Berlin, or Paris, or Copenhagen, or any European city - what are they more likely to hum for you - the first movement of Beethoven's 5th symphony, or One by One by Immortal?


What constitutes musical success over in Europe?--- I'd say getting top billing at the tens-of-thousands strong Wacken Festival in Germany. . . but don't be discouraged: your modal European follows World Cup soccer more devoutedly than BBC Proms doing Beethoven's Fifth-- so that must be better too.


----------



## aleazk

The Sound Of Perseverance said:


> What is satanic sounding music to you guys? What classifies it as satanic music? Have you heard a demon before? Do they growl I'm curious


It's not about 'satanic' music. I don't believe in gods nor demons, so I couldn't care less about that. It's about the aesthetic of the music. And certainly this death metal music has a very defined aesthetic, a 'dark' mood. As I said, I don't have any problem with that. I like a lot of classical music with that aesthetic.

And, growls certainly add to this aesthetic, you cannot pretend it's just a musical device with no emotional connotation. And, if you guys don't like this aesthetic, then you should hire some marketing advisor, because names like Possessed, Death, Obituary, Deicide, Cannibal Corpse, etc., are not helping you then (and are also quite kitsch if you ask me).


----------



## Cheyenne

The Sound Of Perseverance said:


> ok i guess you're right ill back off but not before i post 1 more video of an interview with chuck schuldiner


He.. He sounds a little like he's using valley-girl speak! What's that accent? At least I liked: "Reality is far more brutal than a demon tearing one's heart out. ... If there's evil, it's people." It's nice in a quirky way. It's great people watching MTV had the patience to listen to actual interviews back then.


----------



## PetrB

The Sound Of Perseverance said:


> hmm i wasn't sure but when i came here i thought that we would all understand each other since both genres a criminally under rated and don't get the attention they deserve. thanks for the feedback anyways!
> 
> the problem is that i want classical music fans opinions no offense but if i wanted metal heads opinions i would have stayed on ultimate metal forums but thanks anyways
> and this is not supposed to be mean


Underrating classical, all eras through to the present, is a bit criminal.

1.) Overrating metal, Death Metal, loud 'n' fast note-playing in what is still very basic pop music (I don't care what clothes you dress it up it), 
2.) posting the lyrics to a song -- _as if they had anything whatsoever to do with the quality of the music itself_ -- 
3.) and trying to get Death Metal its membership card to the big boys 'n' girls club (sorry, but compared to classical repertoire, just about any rock is permanently stuck in short pants), is if not criminal, a strongly typical teen years event.

As to 'what classical music is... well, search this site for OP's like:
"recommend me"... 
what is the darkest / 
most depressing / 
most epic / 
'Gothic-sounding 
(etc.etc.etc.) classical music

But oh! To be teen and find such big and obvious things impressive. It suits the mood of the age, to be sure, but it is like thinking your car is awesomely complex because it is very loud and very fast -- until you get to supersonic jets, after which your car will seem less than a two wheeled push-scooter


----------



## Morimur

julianoq said:


> Talking from my experience, I think that a lot of metal listeners, specially when young, think that metal is superior/more complex than other kinds of music. And then, for some reason, they think that classical music listeners would understand the amazing quality and complexity of metal. I was one of these guys years ago.


You're very brave to make such an admission, julianoq. I want you to know that it's gonna be ok. You need to forgive yourself.


----------



## nightscape

Opeth is as much as I can take in this genre. They're not a "death metal" band, but they certainly have those elements in segments of their music.

Death metal gets really old really quick.


----------



## Bulldog

DrMike said:


> I wasn't passing judgment on your fondness for Rand - merely that your statement sounded very much like her objectivist ideology, particularly as manifested in Atlas Shrugged. I have read some of her works - Atlas, Fountainhead, and Anthem. At times I found her prose excruciating, some of her ideas interesting, others absurd. She seemed too extreme in the opposite direction from that which she despised. And yes, I didn't like her not so thinly veiled contempt for religion.


It's been many years since I read the Rand novels. But I sure do remember that Rand had a thorough distaste for religious organizations ( I do also).

However, what the hell does Rand have to do with classical music? For that matter, what does death metal have to do with classical music? This thread is in the wrong place and screwy to boot. I realize that plenty of folks go for death metal, and that's fine with me. I just want to keep it out of my life


----------



## PetrB

BurningDesire said:


> I disagree (I mean in general, of course some of any kind of music can be boring) but I like this post because it calls out some of the absurdity of this forum :3
> 
> Of course. An entire idiom of music is monotonous and boring, there is no diversity or range of quality.


Well, if all of one genre and its myriad fellow hair-split defined sub-genres all fit neatly into one tiny change purse, the currency all honored in the same establishment, then it is a matter of being more than just a little 'all the same.'


----------



## The Sound Of Perseverance

What the hell are you talking about? excuse my language but you're trying to tell me that death metal is very basic "pop" music? this just shows the ignorance and no i don't think death metal is as complex as classical obviously not. But you show no respect to people who devote their lives to their music. most death metal bands make like no money but they still play.


----------



## The Sound Of Perseverance

aleazk said:


> It's not about 'satanic' music. I don't believe in gods nor demons, so I couldn't care less about that. It's about the aesthetic of the music. And certainly this death metal music has a very defined aesthetic, a 'dark' mood. As I said, I don't have any problem with that. I like a lot of classical music with that aesthetic.
> 
> And, growls certainly add to this aesthetic, you cannot pretend it's just a musical device with no emotional connotation. And, if you guys don't like this aesthetic, then you should hire some marketing advisor, because names like Possessed, Death, Obituary, Deicide, Cannibal Corpse, etc., are not helping you then (and are also quite kitsch if you ask me).


this should show you that they don't want to become the richest people on the earth they just want to make music


----------



## The Sound Of Perseverance

Cheyenne said:


> He.. He sounds a little like he's using valley-girl speak! What's that accent? At least I liked: "Reality is far more brutal than a demon tearing one's heart out. ... If there's evil, it's people." It's nice in a quirky way. It's great people watching MTV had the patience to listen to actual interviews back then.


thats just his way of talking. Why is it quirky?


----------



## Morimur

The Sound Of Perseverance said:


> What the hell are you talking about? excuse my language but you're trying to tell me that death metal is very basic "pop" music? this just shows the ignorance and no i don't think death metal is as complex as classical obviously not. But you show no respect to people who devote their lives to their music. most death metal bands make like no money but they still play.


----------



## The Sound Of Perseverance

Lope de Aguirre said:


>


hahahaha ill admit that ones pretty funny. nice


----------



## Guest

Marschallin Blair said:


> You can pass judgement upon anyone or anything you want-- its called 'rationality.'_;D_ Even people who profess not to judge others do it every day, even in this very Forum.
> 
> Ayn Rand's philosophy isn't any more an ideology than is that of Socrates. They're merely instances--- one literary and one dialectical--- of inductive and deductive chains of reasoning; and the consequences of making those choices.
> 
> Perhaps you'll be so kind as to furnish some examples of the"absurdity" and of the "thinly-veiled contempt for religion" in the works of hers you just mentioned (_Atlas Shrugged, The Fountainhead, _and _Anthem_)--- works you professedly have read-- because there aren't any such examples. If there's any 'contempt' mentioned in these works, its the demonstrable contempt mystics afford reason and reality.
> 
> What constitutes musical success over in Europe?--- I'd say getting top billing at the tens-of-thousands strong Wacken Festival in Germany. . . but don't be discouraged: your modal European follows World Cup soccer more devoutedly than BBC Proms doing Beethoven's Fifth-- so that must be better too.


It seems you misunderstood most of what I said.

I did not mean to pass judgment on your affinity for Ayn Rand. You made a statement that, to me, sounded very much like the themes of Ayn Rand that I knew from reading her novels and studying her ideology (believe it or not, I even submitted an essay for a competition to the Ayn Rand Society - I think that is what it was called -, related to the quote from Francisco D'Anconia about the evil of Robin Hood). In the same way that I would say to a person that said Roll Tide, "Hey, you must be a fan of the University of Alabama." Go ahead and like Rand's ideas. I like them more than I like many other ideologies out there. But I don't like her disdain for religion, and I think she still suffers from being too extreme.

I didn't point to specific passages in any of her books that were anti-religion. But surely you must know of her disdain for religion - or are you merely being obtuse on this matter? It has been too long for me to go back and cite passages from books I haven't read in more than 10 years. But hey, it gave you an opportunity to knock religion.

Tens of thousands. Wow. That's like a lot, isn't it? And again, I never brought in regional tastes into this. I have only ever addressed the comparison of classical to death metal, and I still believe that death metal is a relatively unknown sub-genre that is nowhere near as popular as others. And I never said that popularity equates to quality. My point in mentioning the relative obscurity of death metal is that very few people in this world ever have, or ever will, hear it. My relatively small hometown in Northern California had tens-of-thousands of people. And it was still a relatively obscure town. And not many people have heard of it, nor will they ever.

And you see - the relative success of death metal in Europe has absolutely no impact on my love for classical music. And to the point you seem to be trying to make - the level of popularity of death metal is not a factor that is going to sway me to liking it. As you implied, popularity doesn't equal quality. I have not embraced classical music because I think it is the cool thing. It sounds good to me. And death metal doesn't. And that is just the way it is.

So go ahead and find some other imagined insult in what I am saying and take umbrage with it.


----------



## Guest

Bulldog said:


> It's been many years since I read the Rand novels. But I sure do remember that Rand had a thorough distaste for religious organizations ( I do also).
> 
> However, what the hell does Rand have to do with classical music? For that matter, what does death metal have to do with classical music? This thread is in the wrong place and screwy to boot. I realize that plenty of folks go for death metal, and that's fine with me. I just want to keep it out of my life


Rand has nothing to do with anything - except that Blair made a statement that sounded very Randian to me, and so I mentioned that. Just part of the conversation. Blair thought that I was issuing some kind of criticism, but I wasn't. It was no different than hearing someone in passing say "Roll Tide," and commenting, "Hey, you must be a fan of the University of Alabama." Nothing more needs to be read into what I initially said.


----------



## Cheyenne

The Sound Of Perseverance said:


> What the hell are you talking about? excuse my language but you're trying to tell me that death metal is very basic "pop" music? this just shows the ignorance and no i don't think death metal is as complex as classical obviously not. But you show no respect to people who devote their lives to their music. most death metal bands make like no money but they still play.


You're merely showing how certain features in the distribution and superficial design of pop music differs -- i.e., metal doesn't pander to the largest crowd (only to a specific one), they do not write music with the intent of maximizing profit, and they challenge certain norms. Beneath the surface, however, they still utilize nearly the exact same design. It's louder and faster, but all still fits within a rather rigid song structure. Few of the characteristics of Metal clash in any way with the advice given in _How to Write and Sell a Song Hit_ -- a popular instruction manual _from 1939_. The structure has been the same for decades.


----------



## The Sound Of Perseverance

DrMike said:


> It seems you misunderstood most of what I said.
> 
> I did not mean to pass judgment on your affinity for Ayn Rand. You made a statement that, to me, sounded very much like the themes of Ayn Rand that I knew from reading her novels and studying her ideology (believe it or not, I even submitted an essay for a competition to the Ayn Rand Society - I think that is what it was called -, related to the quote from Francisco D'Anconia about the evil of Robin Hood). In the same way that I would say to a person that said Roll Tide, "Hey, you must be a fan of the University of Alabama." Go ahead and like Rand's ideas. I like them more than I like many other ideologies out there. But I don't like her disdain for religion, and I think she still suffers from being too extreme.
> 
> I didn't point to specific passages in any of her books that were anti-religion. But surely you must know of her disdain for religion - or are you merely being obtuse on this matter? It has been too long for me to go back and cite passages from books I haven't read in more than 10 years. But hey, it gave you an opportunity to knock religion.
> 
> Tens of thousands. Wow. That's like a lot, isn't it? And again, I never brought in regional tastes into this. I have only ever addressed the comparison of classical to death metal, and I still believe that death metal is a relatively unknown sub-genre that is nowhere near as popular as others. And I never said that popularity equates to quality. My point in mentioning the relative obscurity of death metal is that very few people in this world ever have, or ever will, hear it. My relatively small hometown in Northern California had tens-of-thousands of people. And it was still a relatively obscure town. And not many people have heard of it, nor will they ever.
> 
> And you see - the relative success of death metal in Europe has absolutely no impact on my love for classical music. And to the point you seem to be trying to make - the level of popularity of death metal is not a factor that is going to sway me to liking it. As you implied, popularity doesn't equal quality. I have not embraced classical music because I think it is the cool thing. It sounds good to me. And death metal doesn't. And that is just the way it is.
> 
> So go ahead and find some other imagined insult in what I am saying and take umbrage with it.


i support you brother and i completely understand you not liking Death metal. Would you agree with me that both Death metal and classical are acquired tastes?


----------



## Guest

The Sound Of Perseverance said:


> What the hell are you talking about? excuse my language but you're trying to tell me that death metal is very basic "pop" music? this just shows the ignorance and no i don't think death metal is as complex as classical obviously not. But you show no respect to people who devote their lives to their music. most death metal bands make like no money but they still play.


Florence Foster Jenkins devoted her life to her music . . . and she still sucked. Sorry, but there is no A for effort. It doesn't matter how devoted you are to a thing - if it isn't good, it isn't good. Thinking it doesn't make it so. Look up on YouTube Florence Foster Jenkins and you will see what I am talking about - someone very devoted to her music.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Florence_Foster_Jenkins

If they make no money for their music, perhaps it is time to consider other career options.


----------



## The Sound Of Perseverance

Cheyenne said:


> You're merely showing how certain features in the distribution and superficial design of pop music differs -- i.e., metal doesn't pander to the largest crowd (only to a specific one), they do not write music with the intent of maximizing profit, and they challenge certain norms. Beneath the surface, however, they still utilize nearly the exact same design. It's louder and faster, but all still fits within a rather rigid song structure. Few of the characteristics of Metal clash in any way with the advice given in _How to Write and Sell a Song Hit_ -- a popular instruction manual _from 1939_. The structure has been the same for decades.


you know what I'm not gonna argue i realize you would absolutely thrash me in an argument (ha. got my reference? probably not)
can we just agree to disagree?


----------



## PetrB

Cheyenne said:


> He.. He sounds a little like he's using valley-girl speak! What's that accent? At least I liked: "Reality is far more brutal than a demon tearing one's heart out. ... If there's evil, it's people." It's nice in a quirky way. It's great people watching MTV had the patience to listen to actual interviews back then.


Then again, why wait for an MTV interview of anyone, complete with watered-down Jean-Paul Sartre?

"L'enfer c'est les autres" ("Hell is other people.")


----------



## The Sound Of Perseverance

DrMike said:


> Florence Foster Jenkins devoted her life to her music . . . and she still sucked. Sorry, but there is no A for effort. It doesn't matter how devoted you are to a thing - if it isn't good, it isn't good. Thinking it doesn't make it so. Look up on YouTube Florence Foster Jenkins and you will see what I am talking about - someone very devoted to her music.
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Florence_Foster_Jenkins
> 
> If they make no money for their music, perhaps it is time to consider other career options.


sorry i didn't mean it literally but a lot of them still have to do part time jobs when they are not touring or writing albums. But still at least I'm not coming in and arguing that its harder to rap then to write and play classical music and we all know thats not true but i know death metal is not as complex as classical but is it more complex than a lot of other genres of music?


----------



## Marschallin Blair

> DrMike: I didn't point to specific passages in any of her books that were anti-religion. But surely you must know of her disdain for religion - or are you merely being obtuse on this matter? It has been too long for me to go back and cite passages from books I haven't read in more than 10 years.


"_So you have. . . . . . . no. . . . . . . e-vi-den-ce. No further questions, Your Honor."_

-- and_ I_ thought proof was an elementary courtesy that was any man's due.

Byyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy-eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee.


----------



## Guest

The Sound Of Perseverance said:


> i support you brother and i completely understand you not liking Death metal. Would you agree with me that both Death metal and classical are acquired tastes?


Everything that anybody likes is an acquired taste. Some things take less effort to acquire, though, than others. And the durability of classical music, in some instances for hundreds of years, is a testament to how easily people can enjoy this music. We can discuss this again when bands like Death and Immortal are 100 years in their graves (and yes, I do note the irony of the juxtaposition of that statement with the band names).


----------



## Lukecash12

DrMike said:


> It seems you misunderstood most of what I said.
> 
> I did not mean to pass judgment on your affinity for Ayn Rand. You made a statement that, to me, sounded very much like the themes of Ayn Rand that I knew from reading her novels and studying her ideology (believe it or not, I even submitted an essay for a competition to the Ayn Rand Society - I think that is what it was called -, related to the quote from Francisco D'Anconia about the evil of Robin Hood). In the same way that I would say to a person that said Roll Tide, "Hey, you must be a fan of the University of Alabama." Go ahead and like Rand's ideas. I like them more than I like many other ideologies out there. But I don't like her disdain for religion, and I think she still suffers from being too extreme.
> 
> I didn't point to specific passages in any of her books that were anti-religion. But surely you must know of her disdain for religion - or are you merely being obtuse on this matter? It has been too long for me to go back and cite passages from books I haven't read in more than 10 years. But hey, it gave you an opportunity to knock religion.
> 
> Tens of thousands. Wow. That's like a lot, isn't it? And again, I never brought in regional tastes into this. I have only ever addressed the comparison of classical to death metal, and I still believe that death metal is a relatively unknown sub-genre that is nowhere near as popular as others. And I never said that popularity equates to quality. My point in mentioning the relative obscurity of death metal is that very few people in this world ever have, or ever will, hear it. My relatively small hometown in Northern California had tens-of-thousands of people. And it was still a relatively obscure town. And not many people have heard of it, nor will they ever.
> 
> And you see - the relative success of death metal in Europe has absolutely no impact on my love for classical music. And to the point you seem to be trying to make - the level of popularity of death metal is not a factor that is going to sway me to liking it. As you implied, popularity doesn't equal quality. I have not embraced classical music because I think it is the cool thing. It sounds good to me. And death metal doesn't. And that is just the way it is.
> 
> So go ahead and find some other imagined insult in what I am saying and take umbrage with it.


God, I need a freakin cigarette after reading 104 posts of this. We can be pretty stuffy sometimes, talking about Rand, Sartre, music theory, discussing the appeal to popularity fallacy, I can just see the average joe rolling his eyes.


----------



## PetrB

The Sound Of Perseverance said:


> ...you're trying to tell me that death metal is very basic "pop" music?


Compared to _much classical,_ Death-Metal, ProgRock Metal, etc. _are basic pop music._ The fans will rave on about this band's use of octatonic or synthetic scales, mixed meter, polyrhythms, etc... but it is all as if it were a child's play (or freshman conservatory student's work) compared to modern classical scores which are now on or nearing being 100 years old.

Simples.


----------



## Cheyenne

The Sound Of Perseverance said:


> you know what I'm not gonna argue i realize you would absolutely thrash me in an argument (ha. got my reference? probably not)


As in trash metal?



The Sound Of Perseverance said:


> can we just agree to disagree?


Heh, sure.



PetrB said:


> Then again, why wait for an MTV interview of anyone, complete with watered-down Jean-Paul Sartre?
> 
> "L'enfer c'est les autres" ("Hell is other people.")


Lol, I still see my sister watching MTV occasionally, and trust me, I'd rather have her listening to interviews with watered down Sartre than -- you know, what they show there nowadays.


----------



## Lukecash12

Marschallin Blair said:


> "_So you have. . . . . . . no. . . . . . . e-vi-den-ce. No further questions, Your Honor."_
> 
> -- and_ I_ thought proof was an elementary courtesy that was any man's due.
> 
> Byyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy-eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee.


Hahahahaha, you're in a snarky mood today.


----------



## The Sound Of Perseverance

DrMike said:


> Everything that anybody likes is an acquired taste. Some things take less effort to acquire, though, than others. And the durability of classical music, in some instances for hundreds of years, is a testament to how easily people can enjoy this music. We can discuss this again when bands like Death and Immortal are 100 years in their graves (and yes, I do note the irony of the juxtaposition of that statement with the band names).


Hahaha ok yah Death Metal is a very young genre in comparison like 31 years old but for a genre that has such morbid subject material and is under constant scrutiny its a wonder its lasted even this long. You Know?


----------



## Cheyenne

Lukecash12 said:


> God, I need a freakin cigarette after reading 104 posts of this. We can be pretty stuffy sometimes, talking about Rand, Sartre, music theory, discussing the appeal to popularity fallacy, I can just see the average joe rolling his eyes.


It's great to be having this discussion on "home turf" for once!


----------



## The Sound Of Perseverance

Cheyenne said:


> As in trash metal?
> 
> Heh, sure.
> 
> Lol, I still see my sister watching MTV occasionally, and trust me, I'd rather have her listening to interviews with watered down Sartre than -- you know, what they show there nowadays.


Exactly! you impress me! but you misspelt It! ha. nice try though


----------



## Lukecash12

PetrB said:


> Compared to _much classical,_ Death-Metal, ProgRock Metal, etc. _are basic pop music._ The fans will rave on about this bands use of octatonic or synthetic scales, mixed meter, polyrythms, etc... but it is all as if it were child's play compared to modern classical scores which are now around 100 years old.
> 
> Simples.


I think we're coming off entirely wrong here, though. It doesn't matter how complex music is. It's about music having a novel idea. I mean come on, how many of us here sit down to minimalist music considering it basically part of the same tradition and we want to talk down on metal music because it's fairly rudimentary in terms of music theory?

Check this out, sound of P, these guys are making fun of your music but I know lots of them who listen to this:


----------



## The Sound Of Perseverance

PetrB said:


> Compared to _much classical,_ Death-Metal, ProgRock Metal, etc. _are basic pop music._ The fans will rave on about this band's use of octatonic or synthetic scales, mixed meter, polyrhythms, etc... but it is all as if it were a child's play (or freshman conservatory student's work) compared to modern classical scores which are now on or nearing being 100 years old.
> 
> Simples.


what does this make modern pop music then does it mean pop musicians are just banging rocks together in comparison to Classical?


----------



## PetrB

*3 things that don't suck when you're under 22 which will suck by the time you're 25*

3 things that don't suck when you're under 22 which will suck by the time you're 25:

1.) Much or all of pop music, past and present.

2.) The writings / books of Hermann Hesse.

3.) The writings / books of Ayn Rand.

_These are all best consumed before age 22, before which, exposure to any of the above can have profound and permanent effects upon a person.

After age 22 to age 25, their profundity -- either gradually or seemingly overnight -- will pall into the spectacularly flawed and limited things they are_


----------



## Lukecash12

The Sound Of Perseverance said:


> what does this make modern pop music then does it mean pop musicians are just banging rocks together in comparison to Classical?


No, it just means that their music serves a different purpose. It's *a good thing* when people enjoy music and we're not any better than you simply because we like different music. Like I just pointed out, these same guys that are talking down to metal probably think Phillip Glass and other similar composers like Lepo Sumera are brilliant.


----------



## The Sound Of Perseverance

PetrB said:


> 3 things that don't suck when you're under 22 which will suck by the time you're 25"
> 
> 1.) Much or all of pop music, past and present.
> 
> 2.) The writings / books of Hermann Hesse
> 
> 3.) The writings / books of Ayn Rand
> 
> _These are all best consumed before age 22, after which their profundity -- either gradually or seemingly overnight -- will pall into the spectacularly flawed and limited things they are_


Which is not death metal obviously


----------



## Guest

Marschallin Blair said:


> "_So you have. . . . . . . no. . . . . . . e-vi-den-ce. No further questions, Your Honor."_
> 
> -- and_ I_ thought proof was an elementary courtesy that was any man's due.
> 
> Byyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy-eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee.


So when she says (and I paraphrase) in Atlas Shrugged that faith is an alleged short-cut to knowledge, and is only a short-circuit destroying the mind, you read that as not an attack on religion?

Or when she said the following in an interview in Playboy:
"And, as philosophies, some religions have very valuable moral points. They may have a good influence or proper principles to inculcate, but in a very contradictory context and, on a very - how should I say it? - dangerous or malevolent base: on the ground of faith."

Or:
"Faith is the worst curse of mankind."


----------



## The Sound Of Perseverance

Lukecash12 said:


> No, it just means that their music serves a different purpose. It's *a good thing* when people enjoy music and we're not any better than you simply because we like different music. Like I just pointed out, these same guys that are talking down to metal probably think Phillip Glass and other similar composers like Lepo Sumera are brilliant.


Oh ok so they're basically bullying Death metal just so they can make themselves feel better?


----------



## Lukecash12

The Sound Of Perseverance said:


> Oh ok so they're basically bullying Death metal just so they can make themselves feel better?


No, we're just old farts.


----------



## Cheyenne

DrMike said:


> Or when she said the following in an interview *in Playboy*:
> "And, as philosophies, some religions have very valuable moral points. They may have a good influence or proper principles to inculcate, but in a very contradictory context and, on a very - how should I say it? - dangerous or malevolent base: on the ground of faith."


Anyone else find it funny that came up in Plaboy? :lol:


----------



## SeptimalTritone

PetrB said:


> 3 things that don't suck when you're under 22 which will suck by the time you're 25"
> 
> 1.) Much or all of pop music, past and present.
> 
> 2.) The writings / books of Hermann Hesse
> 
> 3.) The writings / books of Ayn Rand
> 
> _These are all best consumed before age 22, after which their profundity -- either gradually or seemingly overnight -- will pall into the spectacularly flawed and limited things they are_


Hermann Hesse... you've got to be kidding me. My dad and dinosaur grandpa zen friends love Siddhartha! To a zen Buddhist seeker struggling with existence, what a great book!

Now, it doesn't necessarily teach anything profound that one can hold with their mind, but it does open up the heart to the idea of compassion. And although there's no tangible lesson again, it does point people in a better direction than the "grind out intense meditation all the time and sit still you worthless zen seeker" that many people (including me) feel too often.

Come on... not everything spiritual is "new age BS".


----------



## The Sound Of Perseverance

Lukecash12 said:


> No, they're just old farts.


oh.... hahaha. but one more question is Death Metal really that simple i mean i know it sounds primitive but if you think that its probably cause you're not as musically inclined as you may think you are. Its pretty easy to hear all the little notes they are playing


----------



## Cheyenne

The Sound Of Perseverance said:


> oh.... hahaha.


Well, I'm still young, if that helps any.



The Sound Of Perseverance said:


> but one more question is Death Metal really that simple i mean i know it sounds primitive but if you think that its probably cause you're not as musically inclined as you may think you are. Its pretty easy to hear all the little notes they are playing


Primitive sounds don't have to be bad, you know:


----------



## PetrB

Lukecash12 said:


> God, I need a freakin cigarette after reading 104 posts of this.


I've fabricated and smoked several (organic Turkish blend and filtered, of course) -- one was your 'surrogate smoke,' -- so rest easy -- it's taken care of


----------



## PetrB

The Sound Of Perseverance said:


> what does this make modern pop music then does it mean pop musicians are just banging rocks together in comparison to Classical?


Lol. Somewhat. ......................


----------



## Morimur

Tempers are flaring. Let us all have listen to Stockhausen's _Luzifers Abschied_ and calm down. :angel:


----------



## The Sound Of Perseverance

Lope de Aguirre said:


> Tempers are flaring. Let us all have listen to Stockhausen's _Luzifers Abschied_ and calm down. :angel:


Thats got some awesome atmosphere it would rival any black metal band i know! even though i don't know many I'm not into black metal it just gets extremely boring to me sometimes i do like blackened thrash and Death metal though! way to much tremolo picking


----------



## Cheyenne

Lope de Aguirre said:


> Tempers are flaring. Let us all have listen to Stockhausen's _Luzifers Abschied_ and calm down. :angel:


I love the Gustave Doré illustration. I still want to own an edition of Paradise Lost with his images:


----------



## Lukecash12

The Sound Of Perseverance said:


> oh.... hahaha. but one more question is Death Metal really that simple i mean i know it sounds primitive but if you think that its probably cause you're not as musically inclined as you may think you are. Its pretty easy to hear all the little notes they are playing


I'm sorry dude, look back at millionrainbows post if you want to see metal explained in terms of music theory. It really is pretty simple, especially if you start looking at the overall structure and consider this thing of verse-bridge-chorus-solo form. The rhythms have pretty much stayed the same (4/4 time), the structure is the same, the scales and chords are the same, etc.

But remember that doesn't have to be a bad thing at all. Like I said earlier tons of people here listen to this:


----------



## The Sound Of Perseverance

Lukecash12 said:


> I'm sorry dude, look back at millionrainbows post if you want to see metal explained in terms of music theory. It really is pretty simple, especially if you start looking at the overall structure and consider this thing of verse-bridge-chorus-solo form. The rhythms have pretty much stayed the same (4/4 time), the structure is the same, the scales and chords are the same, etc.
> 
> But remember that doesn't have to be a bad thing at all. Like I said earlier tons of people here listen to this:


well.... this sucks ill post more videos and you tell me if they are simple or complex


----------



## Cheyenne

The Sound Of Perseverance said:


> well.... this sucks ill post more videos and you tell me if they are simple or complex


Well, persistence is a virtue in many cases! :lol:


----------



## The Sound Of Perseverance

ok so does anybody know what the hell all this means?


----------



## Cheyenne

The Sound Of Perseverance said:


> ok so does anybody know what the hell all this means?
> View attachment 49216


Try Ligeti:


----------



## The Sound Of Perseverance

Theres not much that can beat technical death metal drumming. What do you think?


----------



## The Sound Of Perseverance

holy *****! what the heck?


----------



## The Sound Of Perseverance

Cheyenne said:


> Try Ligeti:
> 
> View attachment 49217


well it still isn't that bad is it?


----------



## PetrB

SeptimalTritone said:


> Hermann Hesse... you've got to be kidding me. My dad and dinosaur grandpa zen friends love Siddhartha!


Lovely little book. Ask your dad and 'dinogramps zen friends' _how old they were_ when that book -- or any other Hesse or Rand -- grabbed them, and then if they re-read any of those when thirty or older


----------



## The Sound Of Perseverance

PetrB said:


> Lovely little book. Ask your dad and 'dinogramps zen friends' _how old they were_ when that book -- or any other Hesse or Rand -- grabbed them, and then if they re-read any of those when thirty or older


Siddartha was a fantastic book! are you high?


----------



## Guest

PetrB said:


> Compared to _much classical,_ Death-Metal, ProgRock Metal, etc. _are basic pop music._ The fans will rave on about this band's use of octatonic or synthetic scales, mixed meter, polyrhythms, etc... but it is all as if it were a child's play (or freshman conservatory student's work) compared to modern classical scores which are now on or nearing being 100 years old.
> 
> Simples.


I actually think about this notion often. Since getting deep into classical music, I can no longer stomach many of the fabricated statements of high praise towards popular music - usually the ones referring to complexity. Because relatively, none of that stuff is complex... And death metal is as simple as it comes, really. Still fun from time to time, though.


----------



## The Sound Of Perseverance

In fact the lead guitar and vocalist for The technical death metal band Necrophagist is a fan of classical music he'll use excerpts of classical composer's music sometimes. like in the song 'Only ash remains' at around 3:40 he uses an excerpt from Prokofiev's The Dance of Knights! just learned this!


----------



## The Sound Of Perseverance

arcaneholocaust said:


> I actually think about this notion often. Since getting deep into classical music, I can no longer stomach many of the fabricated statements of high praise towards popular music - usually the ones referring to complexity. Because relatively, none of that stuff is complex... And death metal is as simple as it comes, really. Still fun from time to time, though.


Huh? simple as it gets hmmm


----------



## Cheyenne

The Sound Of Perseverance said:


> In fact the lead guitar and vocalist for The technical death metal band Necrophagist is a fan of classical music he'll use excerpts of classical composer's music sometimes. like in the song 'Only ash remains' at around 3:40 he uses an excerpt from Prokofiev's The Dance of Knights! just learned this!


Many kinds of music take thematic material from other kinds of music. Classical composers use themes from folk music all the time. It's what they do with it, how they develop it, that matters.


----------



## PetrB

The Sound Of Perseverance said:


> Theres not much that can beat technical death metal drumming. What do you think?


not much impressed (yawn, smirk

Alberto Ginastera ~ Cantata para América Mágica op.27, for soprano and percussion orchestra


----------



## The Sound Of Perseverance




----------



## aleazk

The Sound Of Perseverance said:


> Theres not much that can beat technical death metal drumming. What do you think?


Dude: really, stop and think about how ridiculous is what you are doing here. You come to a classical music forum in search of some sort of validation of your tastes? That's pathetic. 'Oh, classical music fans say that what I listen is complex', give me a break... and no, it's not even complex, it's just a pop song with steroids...


----------



## Blake

Metal and classical are really not to be compared. Metal is more about an attitude than producing some kind of 'high' art. You're angry? A little pissed you were born? Here's some Bloodbath....


----------



## The Sound Of Perseverance

aleazk said:


> Dude: really, stop and think about how ridiculous is what you are doing here. You come to a classical music forum in search of some sort of validation of your tastes? That's pathetic. 'Oh, classical music fans say that what I listen is complex', give me a break... and no, it's not even complex, it's just a pop song with steroids...


hahahahhahahahhahahah what the hell is your problem dude take some antidepressants dude! Jesus Christ


----------



## The Sound Of Perseverance

Bloodbath heck yes!


----------



## Guest

Cheyenne said:


> Anyone else find it funny that came up in Plaboy? :lol:


Hey - people buy it for the articles!


----------



## The Sound Of Perseverance

aleazk said:


> Dude: really, stop and think about how ridiculous is what you are doing here. You come to a classical music forum in search of some sort of validation of your tastes? That's pathetic. 'Oh, classical music fans say that what I listen is complex', give me a break... and no, it's not even complex, it's just a pop song with steroids...


and you're extremely ignorant pop songs on steroids? what the hell is your PROBLEM. i admitted several posts ago that most classical is more complex then death metal. and i just want other peoples opinion if i went on a rap forum or pop forum they would have been stupid about it. so i went to a forum that i though they would actually understand. apparently i was wrong for most of you.


----------



## thetrout

I honestly prefer cheesy pop over death metal.


----------



## Cheyenne

The Sound Of Perseverance said:


> hahahahhahahahhahahah what the hell is your problem dude take some antidepressants dude! Jesus Christ


May I imagine you with a surfer dude accent?


----------



## The Sound Of Perseverance

thetrout said:


> I honestly prefer cheesy pop over death metal.


thats ok man fdff


----------



## The Sound Of Perseverance

Cheyenne said:


> May I imagine you with a surfer dude accent?


ha! sure dude hahaha


----------



## ribonucleic

If I sought to evangelize for death metal among classical music fans, I would focus on the instrumental groups - since they don't carry the baggage of growling and shock lyrics.

The compositions of Blotted Science's _The Machinations of Dementia_ have roots in Schoenberg's 12-tone system. And the performances ought to at least earn respect among admirers of instrumental virtuosity.


----------



## The Sound Of Perseverance

ribonucleic said:


> If I sought to evangelize for death metal among classical music fans, I would focus on the instrumental groups - since they don't carry the baggage of growling and shock lyrics.
> 
> The compositions of Blotted Science's _The Machinations of Dementia_ have roots in Schoenberg's 12-tone system. And the performances ought to at least earn respect among admirers of instrumental virtuosity.


oh ok thanks for the advice and thats an awesome song!


----------



## Marschallin Blair

> DrMike: So when she says (and I paraphrase) in Atlas Shrugged that faith is an alleged short-cut to knowledge, and is only a short-circuit destroying the mind, you read that as not an attack on religion?


Paraphrasing can be a kind of cheating; a kind of hearsay if you will-- because the proposition at stake isn't analyzed as originally written but rather by what someone arbitrarily says it is.

Still, that being said, even with what you wrote above-- your paraphrase of what Rand allegedly said still doesn't constitute an attack on religion. Its a mere statement of fact: science exists because of the evidence, whereas faith exists in spite_ of_, and very often contrary _to_, the evidence. Reason is the faculty that identifies and integrates the material provided by man's senses. Reason, and no other.

This is expository and not evaluational. Devout theologians as diverse as Averroes, Aquinas, and Barth would agree as much. One would hardly them irreligious.

When you cite:



> Or when she said the following in an interview in Playboy:
> "And, as philosophies, some religions have very valuable moral points. They may have a good influence or proper principles to inculcate, but in a very contradictory context and, on a very - how should I say it? - dangerous or malevolent base: on the ground of faith."
> 
> Or:
> "Faith is the worst curse of mankind."


You're changing the context of your original argument. Your original argument,_ as stated_, was that:



> *I have read some of her works - Atlas, Fountainhead, and Anthem. At times I found her prose excruciating, some of her ideas interesting, others absurd.* She seemed too extreme in the opposite direction from that which she despised. And yes, I didn't like her not so thinly veiled contempt for religion.


So, now that you can't find anything in her literary_ oeuvre _to make your imaginary point, you run to the _Playboy_ article to camouflage the fact that you were shooting blanks all along.


----------



## Lukecash12

DrMike said:


> Hey - people buy it for the articles!


Yeah right, that's not why I used to buy that stuff.


----------



## The Sound Of Perseverance




----------



## aleazk

The Sound Of Perseverance said:


> hahahahhahahahhahahah what the hell is your problem dude take some antidepressants dude! Jesus Christ


That's all you got? *yawn*

Anyway, playing your game: no, even jazz drummers are far more complex than that: 




That guy (Chris Dave) destroys your death metal guy...


----------



## Marschallin Blair

Lukecash12 said:


> Hahahahaha, you're in a snarky mood today.


Straight-up b#tch, in fact. Count on it. _;D_


----------



## The Sound Of Perseverance

aleazk said:


> that's all you got? *yawn*
> 
> anyway, playing your game: No, even jazz drummers are far more complex than that:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> that guy (chris dave) destroys your death metal guy...


damn you! How how how? actually never mind after furthers examination he's good but not death metal good if we are taking drumming here


----------



## echo

the music like all music has it's quality - but the male metal fans seem to just be a bunch of repressed homosexuals --- squealing like girls at a guy trying to be scary on stage with long hair and a cod piece


----------



## Morimur

If you're looking for something that's a bit more sophisticated than the stuff you've been posting (within the Metal-Rock realm) I would procure recordings by the following...

*Art Ensemble of Chicago*
They are really an avant-garde Jazz ensemble with a rather aggressive approach which I think would appeal to Metal listeners.

*Weather Report*
Jazz fusion (Rock) ensemble

*Mahavishnu Orchestra*
Jazz fusion (Rock) ensemble

*Zevious*
Jazz fusion (Rock) ensemble


----------



## The Sound Of Perseverance

echo said:


> the music like all music has it's quality - but the male metal fans seem to just be a bunch of repressed homosexuals --- squealing like girls at a guy trying to be scary on stage with long hair and a cod piece


ha. true, but not really did chuck from the first video look like he was trying to look scary?


----------



## The Sound Of Perseverance

ok ill take a look


----------



## PetrB

The Sound Of Perseverance said:


> Which is not death metal obviously


a-Yep!

"Much or all of pop music, past and present."


----------



## The Sound Of Perseverance

Did any of you look through the playlist at all they are all instrumentals if not, most of them are


----------



## The Sound Of Perseverance

PetrB said:


> a-Yep!
> 
> "Much or all of pop music, past and present."


Ha. you're funny!


----------



## Cheyenne

echo said:


> the music like all music has it's quality - but the male metal fans seem to just be a bunch of repressed homosexuals --- squealing like girls at a guy trying to be scary on stage with long hair and a cod piece


What are you talking about? Those guys are the pinnacle of masculinity!


----------



## echo

yea it's just plain gay in the goofiest way and the fans are even worse


----------



## The Sound Of Perseverance

Cheyenne said:


> What are you talking about? Those guys are the pinnacle of masculinity!
> 
> View attachment 49223
> 
> 
> View attachment 49225
> 
> 
> View attachment 49224


really..... all hair metal bands except judas priest.


----------



## The Sound Of Perseverance

echo said:


> yea it's just plain gay in the goofiest way and the fans are even worse


are they? how would you know?


----------



## Cheyenne

echo said:


> the music like all music has it's quality - but the male metal fans seem to just be a bunch of repressed homosexuals --- squealing like girls at a guy trying to be scary on stage with long hair and a cod piece


Speaking of codpieces..









But it's all about the music! That's what really matters!

(Ps: I kinda like the over-the-top look, and the long hair )


----------



## Guest

The Sound Of Perseverance said:


>


I'll take Buddy Rich, Gene Krupa, and Elvin Jones any day of the week, and twice on Sunday, over these metal drummers. They are fast - I'll give them that. But have you seen how fast Rich is? And how these drummers do so much more with so much less? They don't need a million different pieces in their sets.


----------



## Blake

Or maybe some Behemoth. Blackened Death singing about SATAN! AAAHHHH!


----------



## echo

yes now they are repressed -- but they grew out of the " I'm scary cos i'm gay" root --- "goofy" thats the word that sums it up for me


----------



## The Sound Of Perseverance

This is them now obviously there expressions are not supposed to be taken seriously but do your really expect them to smile Bach didn't smile in his paintings. and i know it would've been impossible to hold his smile for that long.


----------



## The Sound Of Perseverance

echo said:


> yes now they are repressed -- but they grew out of the " I'm scary cos i'm gay" root --- "goofy" thats the word that sums it up for me


Why do you insist on bullying them? thats pretty rude


----------



## Guest

Marschallin Blair said:


> Paraphrasing can be a kind of cheating; a kind of hearsay if you will-- because the proposition at stake isn't analyzed as originally written but rather by what someone arbitrarily says it is.
> 
> Still, that being said, even with what you wrote above-- your paraphrase of what Rand allegedly said still doesn't constitute an attack on religion. Its a mere statement of fact: science exists because of the evidence, whereas faith exists in spite_ of_, and very often contrary _to_, the evidence. Reason is the faculty that identifies and integrates the material provided by man's senses. Reason, and no other.
> 
> This is expository and not evaluational. Devout theologians as diverse as Averroes, Aquinas, and Barth would agree as much. One would hardly them irreligious.
> 
> When you cite:
> 
> You're changing the context of your original argument. Your original argument,_ as stated_, was that:
> 
> So, now that you can't find anything in her literary_ oeuvre _to make your imaginary point, you run to the _Playboy_ article to camouflage the fact that you were shooting blanks all along.


If it suits your ego, then fine. I could care less. Rand is mostly a political curiosity. You win - Rand loved religion! She praised it to the high heavens.

Arguing over Ayn Rand doesn't appeal to me in the least.

Why don't you talk about that whole concept that the majority is never right? Still believe that?


----------



## Blake

Death is really more of a humorous kind of genre. As for Black... well, most of them are already aware that they're not very good - the concern lies more in the mission or ideology than anything else.


----------



## echo

it's great when it's goofy -- and so are the fans -- but the little gang of serious fans are just a bunch of gay clowns dressed in black - imo


----------



## The Sound Of Perseverance

Vesuvius said:


> Death is really more of a humorous kind of genre. As for Black... well, most of them are already aware that they're not very good - the concern lies more in the mission or ideology than anything else.


Why humorous? do you like to downplay other peoples music so you can feel better when you listen to your perfectly refined music? Knowing that even though my music is over polished its still better than Death metal. Mistakes are a natural thing nothings meant to be perfect


----------



## The Sound Of Perseverance

echo said:


> it's great when it's goofy -- and so are the fans -- but the little gang of serious fans are just a bunch of gay clowns dressed in black - imo


you're just a plain bully


----------



## Blake

echo said:


> it's great when it's goofy -- and so are the fans -- but the little gang of serious fans are just a bunch of gay clowns dressed in black - imo


Well, I wear a black suit and black top-hat everywhere I go. And I never turn around.


----------



## Guest

The Sound Of Perseverance said:


> Why humorous? do you like to downplay other peoples music so you can feel better when you listen to your perfectly refined music? Knowing that even though my music is over polished its still better than Death metal. Mistakes are a natural thing nothings meant to be perfect


Humorous because it is grown men still trying to sound like rebellious teenagers, screeching and growling about torture and violence and death and mutilation and death, when most of them look like they would weigh no more than 90 pounds soaking wet (and only because their hair would add an extra 15 pounds soaking wet), and are about the least intimidating people you could imagine.


----------



## echo

The Sound Of Perseverance said:


> Why do you insist on bullying them? thats pretty rude


no i'm not -- i came here for classical music and keep hearing people advertising by crying about this goofy nonsense


----------



## Blake

The Sound Of Perseverance said:


> Why humorous? do you like to downplay other peoples music so you can feel better when you listen to your perfectly refined music? Knowing that even though my music is over polished its still better than Death metal. Mistakes are a natural thing nothings meant to be perfect


Nah, I still listen to some Metal. I'm just aware of what it is. It's not so complicated. I use to be heavily into Black and Death metal not so long ago.


----------



## PetrB

DrMike said:


> If it suits your ego, then fine. I could care less. Rand is mostly a political curiosity. You win - Rand loved religion! She praised it to the high heavens.
> 
> Arguing over Ayn Rand doesn't appeal to me in the least.
> 
> Why don't you talk about that whole concept that the majority is never right? Still believe that?


A nasty hyper-reactionary to Communism, and _not a great writer_ ~ was, in a nutshell, Ms. Rand


----------



## The Sound Of Perseverance

DrMike said:


> Humorous because it is grown men still trying to sound like rebellious teenagers, screeching and growling about torture and violence and death and mutilation and death, when most of them look like they would weigh no more than 90 pounds soaking wet (and only because their hair would add an extra 15 pounds soaking wet), and are about the least intimidating people you could imagine.


rebellious teens? rebellious teens listen to Metallica. and how would you even know what their motives are? do you realize that just because someone plays noisy music that you can not comprehend, that that dosent mean they are fools. have you taken a look at yourself recently?


----------



## Itullian

Marschallin Blair said:


> Paraphrasing can be a kind of cheating; a kind of hearsay if you will-- because the proposition at stake isn't analyzed as originally written but rather by what someone arbitrarily says it is.
> 
> Still, that being said, even with what you wrote above-- your paraphrase of what Rand allegedly said still doesn't constitute an attack on religion. Its a mere statement of fact: *science exists because of the evidence, whereas faith exists in spite of, and very often contrary to, the evidence.* Reason is the faculty that identifies and integrates the material provided by man's senses. Reason, and no other.
> 
> This is expository and not evaluational. Devout theologians as diverse as Averroes, Aquinas, and Barth would agree as much. One would hardly them irreligious.
> 
> When you cite:
> 
> You're changing the context of your original argument. Your original argument,_ as stated_, was that:
> 
> So, now that you can't find anything in her literary_ oeuvre _to make your imaginary point, you run to the _Playboy_ article to camouflage the fact that you were shooting blanks all along.


Of course I don't agree with this.
Science is awesome, but has been wrong many times.
And faith is a point of you, observing and evaluating.
I have faith gravity will continue, etc.
Also, when I see a bird build a nest, a spider a web, a bee a hive, I don't think
they figured that out themselves.
jmho and a point of view.


----------



## The Sound Of Perseverance

echo said:


> no i'm not -- i came here for classical music and keep hearing people advertising by crying about this goofy nonsense


and i came here for an answer, so what i didn't get it


----------



## The Sound Of Perseverance

ok at least you know what it is


----------



## Cheyenne

The Sound Of Perseverance said:


> rebellious teens? rebellious teens listen to Metallica.


I thought rebellious teens listened to Twisted Sister: 



(God, that video is hilarious :lol:.)


----------



## Lukecash12

The Sound Of Perseverance said:


> rebellious teens? rebellious teens listen to Metallica. and how would you even know what their motives are? do you realize that just because someone plays noisy music that you can not comprehend, that that dosent mean they are fools. have you taken a look at yourself recently?


Woah there, I like Metallica, hahahahaha. To be honest their lyrics are a lot more interesting than others out there today, they are not nearly as solipsistic.


----------



## The Sound Of Perseverance

Cheyenne said:


> I thought rebellious teens listened to Twisted Sister:
> 
> 
> 
> (God, that video is hilarious :lol:.)


Nah hair metal is loved by posers


----------



## The Sound Of Perseverance

Lukecash12 said:


> Woah there, I like Metallica, hahahahaha. To be honest their lyrics are a lot more interesting than others out there today, they are not nearly as solipsistic.


they used to metallica is overrated now a days


----------



## echo

dont get me wrong, i listen to all music -- but the links to grown up music is not as significant as all that

this is quite operatic


----------



## Lukecash12

The Sound Of Perseverance said:


> they used to metallica is overrated now a days


I wasn't very big on Master of Puppets or St. Anger, myself.


----------



## Cheyenne

The Sound Of Perseverance said:


> Nah hair metal is loved by posers


Well, that's hardly even hair metal -- I'd say it's just a bad pop rock anthem that was loved because of its funny video.


----------



## The Sound Of Perseverance

i don't think many SANE people were


----------



## The Sound Of Perseverance

Cheyenne said:


> Well, that's hardly even hair metal -- I'd say it's just a bad pop rock anthem that was loved because of its funny video.


well both work in my opinion. i got to go ill be back to probe this issue more


----------



## DiesIraeCX

The Sound Of Perseverance said:


> Nah hair metal is loved by posers


Wait, you've called out posters for their bashing of death metal, yet you bash "hair metal" without so much as to a single reason why? And no, because they're "posers" (whatever the hell that means) isn't a reason.


----------



## The Sound Of Perseverance

DiesIraeVIX said:


> Wait, you've called out posters for their bashing of death metal, yet you bash "hair metal" without so much as to a single reason why? And no, because they're "posers" (whatever the hell that means) isn't a reason.


I'm calling it out because its something that deserves to be called out unless someone convinces me otherwise


----------



## DiesIraeCX

The Sound Of Perseverance said:


> I'm calling it out because its something that deserves to be called out unless someone convinces me otherwise


And you don't see the blatant irony of this statement in the context of this thread and what you yourself have said? I give up.


----------



## PetrB

The Sound Of Perseverance said:


> rebellious teens? rebellious teens listen to Metallica. and how would you even know what their motives are? do you realize that just because someone plays noisy music that you can not comprehend, that that dosent mean they are fools. have you taken a look at yourself recently?


Don't get your knickers in a twist, fella -- those older who are calmly assessing metal and much pop as pretty simple were all rebellious teens, many with teen tastes which are well remembered.

typical teen: 
1.) thinking the teen perception and take on the world and what it offers is utterly new and unique (it is not, the objects of attention may change from generation to generation, but the lack of profundity -- compared to later adult 'stuff' -- remains pretty much a constant.)

2.) being readily impressed with musicians who can play blindingly fast. Pop guitar virtuosi; 16 to 22, all in, top of their game. Classical piano virtuoso, even including the prodigy's start at 16 with a career at 22, tip of the iceberg, not arriving at true virtuoso until ca. 40. Clearly, it takes less technique to be a pop instrumental virtuoso than it does to be a classical instrumental virtuoso.

3.) getting all hopped up because, for some silly reason, the teen thought the world of metal. and thought a bunch of classical fans would be as impressed with it as is the teen.... clearly, they're not -- or they were _when they too were young,_ and are now quite over it


----------



## SONNET CLV

I'd suggest there should be some sort of prize for new poster The Sound Of Perseverance who, apparently, was able to construct a thread on "death metal", post it on this particular classical music Forum, and rack up, to this point, 15 pages worth of comments. Who'd have thought?

Way to go!


----------



## The Sound Of Perseverance

Im sorry..... I haven't kept my composure I just get so angry at people (adults especially) I just feel like a lot of people here are blindly and stupidly disregarding my videos I've posted that are supposed to help them get what metal is all about. It's not just speed. It's the pursuit of perfection.... Though it will never come mistakes make a band what they are and it's what makes them a true metal band.


----------



## Lukecash12

Marschallin Blair said:


> Still, that being said, even with what you wrote above-- your paraphrase of what Rand allegedly said still doesn't constitute an attack on religion. Its a mere statement of fact: science exists because of the evidence, whereas faith exists in spite_ of_, and very often contrary _to_, the evidence. Reason is the faculty that identifies and integrates the material provided by man's senses. Reason, and no other.
> 
> This is expository and not evaluational. Devout theologians as diverse as Averroes, Aquinas, and Barth would agree as much. One would hardly them irreligious.


Averroes and Aquinas were neoplatonists, and as such they aren't representative of all religious thought. I think one of the biggest hurdles here is the idea that religious people don't submit their ideas to critical thinking and that faith is some thing that works against empiricism (let's all remember that science isn't some godlike and ultimate arbiter of truth, there is such a thing as rationalism or skepticism).

This popular definition of faith that has come about in the 20th century is really incredibly misled because when we look at the words that faith was translated from we couldn't be further from the truth. The Greek _pistis_ necessarily involves a rational process by it's very nature. Let's not forget that science came about through religious people and that these articles of faith have been submitted to scrutiny and skepticism for thousands of years. Simply because we choose to believe what we do does not rightly leave anyone else with the forgone conclusion that we didn't submit our ideas to philosophical rigor.


----------



## Cheyenne

At least you're passionate -- that's always good.


----------



## PetrB

The Sound Of Perseverance said:


> I'm calling it out because its something that deserves to be called out unless someone convinces me otherwise


When over half the draw is the appearance of the individuals in the band vs. the music, no further argument need be given. Ditto for all of them -- the sound is often 'not enough on its own' to pull and keep a fan base, ergo, every wh___ needs a gimmick.

Most basically, your OP is moot, i.e. there is no real comparing Metal or other pop musics to classical, as many who knew / know Metal and other pop genre music who now know a lot of and about classical will tell you -- have told you.

It always strikes me odd and a bit pathetic when this topic comes up, as if the Metal fans are constantly looking to the classical community for a validation of their musical taste.

So OK -- you like / love some variety of metal... fine.

And OK, too... there is just no possible or at all interesting comparison to be made between Metal and classical of any sort.


----------



## Blake

The Sound Of Perseverance said:


> Im sorry..... I haven't kept my composure I just get so angry at people (adults especially) I just feel like a lot of people here are blindly and stupidly disregarding my videos I've posted that are supposed to help them get what metal is all about. It's not just speed. It's the pursuit of perfection.... Though it will never come mistakes make a band what they are and it's what makes them a true metal band.


Most here understand what metal is. You're in the upper echelon of music lovers, now. No one here is going to be impressed with techniques of metal when they appreciate composers like Mahler, Bartok, and Stravinsky. That's just the way it is.

I think what's missing here is your experience with Classical. Dive in a bit and you'll come to understand why no one seems to be moved by your plight.


----------



## DiesIraeCX

The Sound Of Perseverance said:


> I just feel like a lot of people here are blindly and stupidly disregarding my videos


They're not stupidly disregarding them, they're telling you they don't like that type of music and it's completely legitimate that they don't like it. Just as it's completely legitimate that you do like it. Like others have said, a negative response to your thread is still a response and opinion. Just because it's not what you were looking for doesn't mean they're "stupidly disregarding" it. You asked for opinions, you got them. No?



The Sound Of Perseverance said:


> I've posted that are supposed to help them get what metal is all about. It's not just speed. It's the pursuit of perfection.... Though it will never come mistakes make a band what they are and it's what makes them a true metal band.


Ok, but remember you're in a classical music forum, expecting to convert people to death metal is kind of, well, weird. I have no problem whatsoever with the core of what you're getting at, but the way you went about it was mistaken in my humble opinion.


----------



## aleazk

Vesuvius said:


> Most here understand what metal is. You're in the upper echelon of music lovers, now. No one here is going to be impressed with techniques of metal when they appreciate composers like Mahler, Bartok, and Stravinsky. That's just the way it is.
> 
> I think what's missing here is your experience with Classical. Dive in a bit and you'll come to understand why no one seems to be moved by your plight.


Clear and precise. :tiphat: at you.


----------



## Guest

The Sound Of Perseverance said:


> they used to metallica is overrated now a days


Yeah, 'cause talent is exclusive to bands without pay (to quote another song).


----------



## Guest

The Sound Of Perseverance said:


> rebellious teens? rebellious teens listen to Metallica. and how would you even know what their motives are? do you realize that just because someone plays music that you can not comprehend, that that dosent mean they are fools. have you taken a look at yourself recently?


I have already confessed to being a fool - just not in this area. But maybe you are right - these guys are actually extremely underrated and underappreciated musical geniuses, who practice an absolute fealty to their classical music roots, as evidenced by their screeching and growling, which are merely the modern day manifestation of Gregorian chant. And nobody appreciates that. Or, you know, their music just might not be very good or interesting. Tell me, if they did the same music, same growling and screeching, but instead inserted lyrics about pink unicorns and fuzzy bunny rabbits, would you like it as much?


----------



## Igneous01

this all sounds like music legions bashing each other. People can say whatever they want regarding Metallica being over-rated and uncool. But the truth is they wrote far better music that is on some level engaging with the listener then most other bands have. It's not about the (perceived) amount of substance/complexity of the music, but the quality. Which in my opinion, some of things sound of P showed were not very good. 

I also don't like lyrics that are disconnected from any sort of context as well as the music itself. That just seems pointless. Why even bother singing if you have nothing to say?


----------



## Guest

The Sound Of Perseverance said:


> Im sorry..... I haven't kept my composure I just get so angry at people (adults especially) I just feel like a lot of people here are blindly and stupidly disregarding my videos I've posted that are supposed to help them get what metal is all about. It's not just speed. It's the pursuit of perfection.... Though it will never come mistakes make a band what they are and it's what makes them a true metal band.


Ah, the pursuit of perfection? That is what it is? And so we are awaiting the person who can growl perfectly? Or screech perfectly? Or write the most perfect lyrics about death and mutilation? It's good that they are striving for perfection - but then who isn't? All bow down to me - I am seeking perfection in my scientific research! How dare you not think I am comparable to a Jonas Salk, or an Albert Einstein?


----------



## PetrB

julianoq said:


> Talking from my experience, I think that a lot of metal listeners, specially when young, think that metal is superior/more complex than other kinds of music. And then, for some reason, they think that classical music listeners would understand the amazing quality and complexity of metal. I was one of these guys years ago.


Yep -- and in their zeal accompanied by little or no familiarity in depth with the _gigantic and impressive_ classical music repertoire covering hundreds of hears, they think a comparison can be made... and are shocked and awed that many think there is far from any comparison possible.

It is an inverse snobbery, knocking on the doors of the classical wing hoping to get your tastes in pop music 'validated.'


----------



## Marschallin Blair

Lukecash12 said:


> Averroes and Aquinas were neoplatonists, and as such they aren't representative of all religious thought. I think one of the biggest hurdles here is the idea that religious people don't submit their ideas to critical thinking and that faith is some thing that works against empiricism (let's all remember that science isn't some godlike and ultimate arbiter of truth, there is such a thing as rationalism or skepticism).
> 
> This popular definition of faith that has come about in the 20th century is really incredibly misled because when we look at the words that faith was translated from we couldn't be further from the truth. The Greek _pistis_ necessarily involves a rational process by it's very nature. Let's not forget that science came about through religious people and that these articles of faith have been submitted to scrutiny and skepticism for thousands of years. Simply because we choose to believe what we do does not rightly leave anyone else with the forgone conclusion that we didn't submit our ideas to philosophical rigor.


Averroes and Aquinas were not neoplatonists but rather Aristotelians of sorts: Averroes attempted to reconcile Aristotle with Islam; and Aquinas attempted to reconcile Aristotle with Catholicism. Plotinus had nothing to do with any of it.

Modern science came out of the Renaissance-- which was a rejection of the fideism of Augustine and the embracing of the empiricism of Aristotle; and later of course Francis Bacon. Which as we all know, later lead to the Ages of Reason and Enlightenment. . .

Anyway, the imaginary sixth sense of some self-annoined mystic doesn't invalidate the evidence of my five.

Science makes energy jump through hoops on command. What can prayer cloths do?

Is it the modern medical amenities furnished by science that keep you alive on the operating table when getting a tripple bypass? Or is it faith? If its 'faith,' then how come the overwhelming majority of religious people who can afford health care insurance_ buy _health care insurance? Are they hedging their bet?


----------



## The Sound Of Perseverance

Jesus Christ..... People here get so damn angry! I guess I shouldn't be saying anything i am being a hypocrite. I am sorry to the people I offended that was not my goal and I wasn't trying to convert people to becoming a metalhead I was just doing a show and tell kinda thing. Btw you guys should probably refrain from using the stereotypes you are using. It just kinda makes you look stupid because you obviously didn't see the lyrics of the death metal band I showed in my first post which were niether satanic or gory


----------



## echo

The Sound Of Perseverance said:


> Jesus Christ..... People here get so damn angry! I guess I shouldn't be saying anything i am being a hypocrite. I am sorry to the people I offended that was not my goal an I wasn't trying to convert people to bring metalheads I was just doing a show and tell kinda thing. Btw you guys should probably refrain from using the stereotypes you are using. It just kinda makes you look stupid because you obviously didn't see the lyrics of the death metal band I showed in my first post which was niether satanic or gory


you forgot to mention goofy


----------



## GreenMamba

69 posts in one thread! That has to be a record, OP.

And I can't even conceive of how this thread came to this:



Marschallin Blair said:


> Averroes and Aquinas were not neoplatonists but rather Aristotelians of sorts: Averroes attempted to reconcile Aristotle with Islam; and Aquinas attempted to reconcile Aristotle with Catholicism.


I wonder if it's worth reading it all to find out.


----------



## Krummhorn

maestro267 said:


> What's with all the metal threads on a classical forum? I know there's a "general music" part of the forum, but so much of that is metal. Why the obsession with it? If anything, classical lovers should be more into prog, what with their similarities.


For the same reason that a number of forums dedicated to "metal" may also have "classical" sections ... and that we take into consideration that classical musicians may have other musical interests like rock n' roll, and metal for instance.


----------



## Igneous01

The Sound Of Perseverance said:


> Jesus Christ..... People here get so damn angry! I guess I shouldn't be saying anything i am being a hypocrite. I am sorry to the people I offended that was not my goal and I wasn't trying to convert people to becoming a metalhead I was just doing a show and tell kinda thing. Btw you guys should probably refrain from using the stereotypes you are using. It just kinda makes you look stupid because you obviously didn't see the lyrics of the death metal band I showed in my first post which were niether satanic or gory


relax, I dont think anyone is being angry here. We are just sharing our opinions on the genre. Sometimes people may get passionate, but don't mistake it as being anger.

But I am curious though, what are you trying to achieve with this thread? Did you listen to what others here posted?


----------



## DiesIraeCX

Igneous01 said:


> relax, I dont think anyone is being angry here. We are just sharing our opinions on the genre. Sometimes people may get passionate, but don't mistake it as being anger.
> 
> But I am curious though, what are you trying to achieve with this thread? Did you listen to what others here posted?


Precisely! For both statements. Well said.


----------



## echo

have your tried spreading the good word about this ?






70 million views --- damn genius


----------



## The Sound Of Perseverance

Igneous01 said:


> relax, I dont think anyone is being angry here. We are just sharing our opinions on the genre. Sometimes people may get passionate, but don't mistake it as being anger.
> 
> But I am curious though, what are you trying to achieve with this thread? Did you listen to what others here posted?


yes and i though i answered this already i want a non metal fans opinion on metal. I'm not trying to convert anyone I've gone through way to much of that myself between my friends and family i know what it feels like. i just want opinions that is my goal. I thought you guys would understand more than rap or pop fans but maybe i was wrong.


----------



## The Sound Of Perseverance

echo said:


> have your tried spreading the good word about this ?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 70 million views --- damn genius


hahahha its not possible


----------



## Igneous01

echo said:


> have your tried spreading the good word about this ?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 70 million views --- damn genius


I'm sure he'll find many merry man for his quest to seek the holy grail.


----------



## Igneous01

The Sound Of Perseverance said:


> yes and i though i answered this already i want a non metal fans opinion on metal. I'm not trying to convert anyone I've gone through way to much of that myself between my friends and family i know what it feels like. i just want opinions that is my goal. I thought you guys would understand more than rap or pop fans but maybe i was wrong.


We gave you our opinions, is that not enough?


----------



## The Sound Of Perseverance

Igneous01 said:


> We gave you our opinions, is that not enough?


yes they are but i didn't know there was anything bad about some good healthy debate and some show and tell of our music after all i called this a comparison video. one guy showed me the art ensemble of Chicago and that was cool! i don't know what people find so bad about this thread. could you fill me in?


----------



## Morimur

GreenMamba said:


> 69 posts in one thread! That has to be a record, OP.
> 
> And I can't even conceive of how this thread came to this:
> 
> I wonder if it's worth reading it all to find out.


No, it never is.


----------



## echo

The Sound Of Perseverance said:


> yes they are but i didn't know there was anything bad about some good healthy debate and some show and tell of our music after all i called this a comparison video. one guy showed me the art ensemble of Chicago and that was cool! i don't know what people find so bad about this thread. could you fill me in?


 -- you are emotional -- because part of your identity is linked to the music -- thats also why you cry victim for attention -- it's just music dude


----------



## DiesIraeCX

The Sound Of Perseverance said:


> yes they are but i didn't know there was anything bad about some good healthy debate and some show and tell of our music after all i called this a comparison video. one guy showed me the art ensemble of Chicago and that was cool! i don't know what people find so bad about this thread. could you fill me in?


People responded to this thread, there are 240+ replies, you yourself have responded an awe-inspiring 72 times (*I'm pretty jealous actually! You'll be on PetrB's level in no time!* ). I would call that a successful thread, nothing "bad" about this thread other than the responses you received were not what you expected. You're equating that with "bad" and you shouldn't.


----------



## Blake

The Sound Of Perseverance said:


> yes they are but i didn't know there was anything bad about some good healthy debate and some show and tell of our music after all i called this a comparison video. one guy showed me the art ensemble of Chicago and that was cool! *i don't know what people find so bad about this thread. could you fill me in?*


Because most like to talk about good music....

Oh, I'm kidding. But really, this is a Classical music forum, so to talk with someone who is only interested in Metal is, well, uninteresting. Get acquainted with some Classical, and this whole thread based on an ignorance will be thwarted.


----------



## aleazk

Igneous01 said:


> We gave you our opinions, is that not enough?


Indeed. The problem is the following:


----------



## The Sound Of Perseverance

i did say that i liked chicagos art ensemble. i do not cry victim for attention i do because its not right in the beginning i responded to everyone nicely svn if they used particularly crude terms to express their dislike for the thread. but i slowly lost my nice edge and went off the hook for a bit and I'm sorry for that. i don't understand why we can't just have a little show and tell


----------



## echo

ok --- how about this ?

- i personally think it has beauty


----------



## Igneous01

aleazk said:


> Indeed. The problem is the following:


Best. Picture. Ever.


----------



## aleazk

The Sound Of Perseverance said:


> i did say that i liked chicagos art ensemble. i do not cry victim for attention i do because its not right in the beginning i responded to everyone nicely svn if they used particularly crude terms to express their dislike for the thread. but i slowly lost my nice edge and went off the hook for a bit and I'm sorry for that. i don't understand why we can't just have a little show and tell


You have a whole classical music forum saying to you that you are mistaken, that this music is not at all complex in the level you think. A lot of us here are musicians, composers, with formal training, etc. Really, we are simply saying honestly what we think, but you are getting all emotional about. Relax, and we will relax also. As somebody said: it's just music, I'm not stealing your girlfriend for god's sake...


----------



## The Sound Of Perseverance

echo said:


> ok --- how about this ?
> 
> - i personally think it has beauty


hmmm interesting!


----------



## The Sound Of Perseverance

aleazk said:


> You have a whole classical music forum saying to you that you are mistaken, that this music is not at all complex in the level you think. A lot of us here are musicians, composers, with formal training, etc. Really, we are simply saying honestly what we think, but you are getting all emotional about. Relax, and we will relax also. As somebody said: it's just music, I'm not stealing your girlfriend for god's sake...


as you can see i take it seriously. thats great that you guys are composer and stuff it really gives you extra insight and understanding that someone who is not a composer would not have. I've been taking guitar since february. i am learning a song called slowly we rot by obituary its pretty simple but its hard to play for some reason though i gotten half way through it


----------



## The Sound Of Perseverance

anybody else is welcome to chime in with their favorite songs ill take a listen!


----------



## echo

this guy lives over the hill --- nice guy


----------



## The Sound Of Perseverance

echo said:


> this guy lives over the hill --- nice guy


hmm system of a down never really liked them but he can do a lot of interesting things with his voice the musicians are not too good at least in this song. i respect your tastes though


----------



## Morimur

Deleted
**********************


----------



## The Sound Of Perseverance

Lope de Aguirre said:


> Good Lord! **************


I'm just trying to be nice about it


----------



## echo

heres the link you should of posted --- pundits screaming at an orchestra


----------



## DiesIraeCX

@TheSoundOfPerseverance, I won't post any death metal songs, I don't care for it. I used to heavily be into Tool and Nine Inch Nails when I was in high school (yes, I know they're not metal), but I outgrew it quite frankly (although I still listen to Tool every once and while and I can still enjoy it).

I can recommend you some classical that might appeal to you since you seem to like intensity.
Bruckner symphony no. 9 - 2nd Movement, it's one of the most intense movements I've ever heard. Or perhaps symphony no. 8 - 4th Movement.

Bruckner 9 - 2nd Movement





Bruckner 8 - 4th Movement


----------



## Morimur

The Sound Of Perseverance said:


> I'm just trying to be nice about it


That was meant to be in reply to that 'Summer' video monstrosity.


----------



## echo

Lope de Aguirre said:


> That was meant to be in reply to that 'Summer' video monstrosity.


i got a feeling it is better than your video though ?

is it not ?


----------



## Igneous01

echo said:


> heres the link you should of posted --- pundits screaming at an orchestra


The pretentiousness is strong with this one.


----------



## The Sound Of Perseverance

oh.... wow I'm dumb


----------



## Morimur

Igneous01 said:


> The pretentiousness is strong with this one.


It's not even atonal!


----------



## The Sound Of Perseverance

DiesIraeVIX said:


> @TheSoundOfPerseverance, I won't post any death metal songs, I don't care for it. I used to heavily be into Tool and Nine Inch Nails when I was in high school (yes, I know they're not metal), but I outgrew it quite frankly (although I still listen to Tool every once and while and I can still enjoy it).
> 
> I can recommend you some classical that might appeal to you since you seem to like intensity.
> Bruckner symphony no. 9 - 2nd Movement, it's one of the most intense movements I've ever heard. Or perhaps symphony no. 8 - 4th Movement.
> 
> Bruckner 9 - 2nd Movement
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Bruckner 8 - 4th Movement


i really like the 2nd movement!


----------



## The Sound Of Perseverance

maybe you guys would like this? the band is called septic flesh its death metal ill show you the one played by the orchestra then the original


----------



## DiesIraeCX

The Sound Of Perseverance said:


> i really like the 2nd movement!


Glad you liked that. Look, there's nothing wrong with you introducing yourself to Classical music by listening to the heavier more intense movements first. If that's what it takes for you to fully get into and appreciate classical, it's worth it. You have incrementally to ease yourself in. If you stick with classical music, your tastes will develop and mature and perhaps in the long run, you may discover that you like the Adagio slow movements above all!

Here's another one you might like. You may have heard this already, it's one of the most well known symphonies (Keep in mind it's only part of the final movement)


----------



## The Sound Of Perseverance

really why'd they have to rename it just to Death metal damn.... that makes me angry


----------



## aleazk

I maintain my early recommendations: http://www.talkclassical.com/33730-death-metal-classical-comparison-2.html#post708156 ; http://www.talkclassical.com/33730-death-metal-6.html#post708431

A piece metal fans often like is this one by Bartok:






(not a 'perfect' performance, but the kids rock)

I know you will find some similarities in rhythm and gesture in relation to metal. But, as PetrB implied earlier, it's not about having a couple of meter changes, weird scales, etc: but what you do with them, and why. Notice the structure, the contrasts in texture (why they are needed and when), note how the rhythmic motif is developed, the different things interplaying (the rhythm, the melodies, the contrast between the lyrical melodies and the aggressive rhythms), etc. All this was deliberately planned and it's a carefully constructed complexity.


----------



## The Sound Of Perseverance

aleazk said:


> I maintain my early recommendations: http://www.talkclassical.com/33730-death-metal-classical-comparison-2.html#post708156 ; http://www.talkclassical.com/33730-death-metal-6.html#post708431
> 
> A piece metal fans often like is this one by Bartok:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (not a 'perfect' performance, but the kids rock)
> 
> I know you will find some similarities in rhythm and gesture in relation to metal. But, as PetrB implied earlier, it's not about having a couple of meter changes, weird scales, etc: but what you do with them, and why. Notice the structure, the contrasts in texture (why they are needed and when), note how the rhythmic motif is developed, the different things interplaying (the rhythm, the melodies, the contrast between the lyrical melodies and the aggressive rhythms), etc. All this was deliberately planned and it's a carefully constructed complexity.


ok ill check it out i am currently still listening to bruckners 2nd movement its impressive


----------



## The Sound Of Perseverance

i might get into classical but ill never fully leave Death Metal if thats what you guys are expecting (no offense) Death metal is what got me away from pop and rap. i love it


----------



## Igneous01

I forgot about this one, a lot of metal heads like it when I show it to them. Although I cant personally go through the entire symphony in one sitting, its too long for my tastes. But the first movement is pretty heavy.


----------



## aleazk

The Sound Of Perseverance said:


> i might get into classical but ill never fully leave Death Metal if thats what you guys are expecting (no offense) Death metal is what got me away from pop and rap. i love it


You are in classical music forum. People is going to recommend you pieces from classical music...


----------



## The Sound Of Perseverance

DiesIraeVIX said:


> Glad you liked that. Look, there's nothing wrong with you introducing yourself to Classical music by listening to the heavier more intense movements first. If that's what it takes for you to fully get into and appreciate classical, it's worth it. You have incrementally to ease yourself in. If you stick with classical music, your tastes will develop and mature and perhaps in the long run, you may discover that you like the Adagio slow movements above all!
> 
> Here's another one you might like. You may have heard this already, it's one of the most well known symphonies (Keep in mind it's only part of the final movement)


so far you've shown me the best


----------



## The Sound Of Perseverance

aleazk said:


> You are in classical music forum. People is going to recommend you pieces from classical music...


and you think i don't know that? I've been listening to them for like the past 25 minutes.... I'm just stating that i will always like Death metal


----------



## Blake

The Sound Of Perseverance said:


> i might get into classical but ill never fully leave Death Metal if thats what you guys are expecting (no offense) Death metal is what got me away from pop and rap. i love it


I think most will sleep tonight. What's more of interest is that you actually listen to Classical when you post here. Maybe try something obvious like Beethoven's 5th. Beethoven has a more aggressive vibe to him that you might find accessible.


----------



## The Sound Of Perseverance

Vesuvius said:


> I think most will sleep tonight. What's more of interest is that you actually listen to Classical when you post here. Maybe try something obvious like Beethoven's 5th. Beethoven has a more aggressive vibe to him that you might find accessible.


i will but for the now I'm listening to this master piece!Ormandy conducts Shostakovich - Symphony No. 4, Op. 43: First movement


----------



## Blake




----------



## The Sound Of Perseverance

Vesuvius said:


>


ok this reminds me of the reason I've never liked classical until now. for all elementary school every single day at lunch time the whole time they'd make us listen to the same exact three songs or somewhere around that many and lunch was an and thirty minutes long and we weren't even aloud to talk and this was a PUBLIC school!


----------



## Blake

Hold onto your biases if you want. We won't get far.


----------



## The Sound Of Perseverance

Vesuvius said:


> Hold onto your biases if you want. We won't get far.


no no i said until now man. thats just the reason i hated classical for 3 and 3/4th years but i don't anymore. i like it!


----------



## Blake

Oh alright, I see....


----------



## The Sound Of Perseverance

yep! its not bad at all


----------



## Morimur

The Sound Of Perseverance said:


> ok this reminds me of the reason I've never liked classical until now. for all elementary school every single day at lunch time the whole time they'd make us listen to the same exact three songs or somewhere around that many and lunch was an and thirty minutes long and we weren't even aloud to talk and this was a PUBLIC school!


What country?
*************


----------



## The Sound Of Perseverance

Lope de Aguirre said:


> What country?
> *************


i live in Georgia in America and i meant to say an hour and 30 minutes long


----------



## The Sound Of Perseverance

I'm ending my streak at 92 posts in one thread I'm going to explore other threads now!


----------



## Morimur

The Sound Of Perseverance said:


> i live in Georgia in America and i meant to say an hour and 30 minutes long


Georgia... What's the homicide rate down there?


----------



## The Sound Of Perseverance

echo said:


> crying victim is nothing to brag about -- you put nothing on the table that couldn't of been posted in other threads


I'm sorry i displeased you please accept my apology


----------



## Blake

echo said:


> hey Lope -- did you see me call you out back there ?


Lope practices what we call "selective reading." It's a useful tool you'll learn to pick up.


----------



## The Sound Of Perseverance

Lope de Aguirre said:


> Georgia... What's the homicide rate down there?


Atlanta
Crime rates (2010)
Crime type	Rate*
Homicide:	17.7
Forcible rape:	16.6
Robbery:	403
Aggravated assault:	634.7
Total Violent crime:	1,071.6
Burglary:	1,494.2
Larceny-theft:	3307
Motor vehicle theft:	940
Total Property crime:	5741
Notes
* Number of reported crimes per 100,000 population.


----------



## PetrB

Try these, first, simply because they might please and interest you.

Serge Prokofiev:
_Battle on the Ice_ (segment from cantata _Alexander Nevsky._




_Scythian Suite_




Piano Concerto No. 3, 3rd Movement




Suggestion Diablolique, Op. 4, No. 4.





Bohuslav Martinů ~ _Toccata e Due Canzoni_ (1946) I. _Toccata_ 





Leoš Janáček ~ Sinfonietta





Bela Bartók:
The Miraculous Mandarin




Piano Concerto No.1 (Géza Anda, piano)




Piano Concerto No.2 (Géza Anda, piano)




Cantata Profana (1 of 3 links)





Olivier Messiaen ~ Turangalîla-Symphonie





Ravel ~ Piano Concerto in G, 3rd Movement (@16'22'')





ADDED... the fairly full-throttled finale, 4th movement of Carl Neilsen's Symphony No. 4
(late romantic / modern)





Saint-Saëns Symphony No. 3, finale, Maestoso; Allegro





and secondly, to help you realize that this is but a smattering of music many a classical listener listens to almost all the time, and have for years, some even since their childhood or early teens... and what you're up against in hoping to argue that any genre of Metal can 'measure' in any way to the classical. The classical doesn't "do" what the Metal is intended to do, and vice versa.


----------



## The Sound Of Perseverance

PetrB said:


> Try these, first, simply because they might please and interest you.
> 
> Serge Prokofiev:
> _Battle on the Ice_ (segment from cantata _Alexander Nevsky._
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _Scythian Suite_
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TjVGLrudHRs[/URL
> 
> 
> Bohuslav Martinů ~ _Toccata e Due Canzoni_ (1946) I. _Toccata_
> [URL="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WMZw0uoRc4w"]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WMZw0uoRc4w
> 
> Leoš Janáček ~ Sinfonietta
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Bela Bartók:
> The Miraculous Mandarin
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Piano Concerto No.1 (Géza Anda, piano)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Piano Concerto No.2 (Géza Anda, piano)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Cantata Profana (1 of 3 links)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Olivier Messiaen ~ Turangalîla-Symphonie
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ravel ~ Piano Concerto in G, 3rd Movement (@16'22'')
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> and secondly, to help you realize that this is but a smattering of music many a classical listener listens to almost all the time, and have for years, some even since their childhood or early teens... and what you're up against in hoping to argue that any genre of Metal can 'measure' in any way to the classical. The classical doesn't "do" what the Metal is intended to do, and vice versa.


ok thanks and i understand the metal classical thing now i had to learn it the hard way


----------



## PetrB

The Sound Of Perseverance said:


> ok thanks and i understand the metal classical thing now i had to learn it the hard way


You're welcome. I hope you find some music of interest to you there. Feel free to PM me for further references of more by the same, and other, composers... its all from the 'modern classical music' era, 1895 - 1965, and there has been a lot of change since then in contemporary classical (1965 - present.)

Cross-comparing genres, even within 'a genre,' lol, is almost always futile, if not downright impossible. INTENT, and Intent for 'use' are at odds, all the way through


----------



## The Sound Of Perseverance

Ok thanks for sticking with me man


----------



## Guest

The Sound Of Perseverance said:


> yes they are but i didn't know there was anything bad about some good healthy debate and some show and tell of our music after all i called this a comparison video. one guy showed me the art ensemble of Chicago and that was cool! i don't know what people find so bad about this thread. could you fill me in?


The one thing this thread does not lack is opinions on death metal. Anywhere from critical analysis of death metal, to gut reactions to email. And there has been debate on it. And then you get mad. Even people on here who have admitted to varying degrees of liking death metal have not gone so far to claim there is any comparison to classical music. Your hopes have been dashed. Is it so important that you have to have this pet theory validated?


----------



## Morimur

The Sound Of Perseverance said:


> Atlanta
> Crime rates (2010)
> Crime type	Rate*
> Homicide:	17.7
> Forcible rape:	16.6
> Robbery:	403
> Aggravated assault:	634.7
> Total Violent crime:	1,071.6
> Burglary:	1,494.2
> Larceny-theft:	3307
> Motor vehicle theft:	940
> Total Property crime:	5741
> Notes
> * Number of reported crimes per 100,000 population.


Good Lawd!
*********


----------



## HaydnBearstheClock

The Sound Of Perseverance said:


> Ok thanks for sticking with me man


Dude, just listen to what you like. Don't let other people change your own opinions. In my opinion, metal uses elements of classical to create an aggressive, driving sound - both musical forms are different, of course. I personally started liking classical because of metal, and I see that your interest in classical also stems from this genre. Just enjoy what you enjoy.


----------



## SONNET CLV

SONNET CLV said:


> ... I get the feeling after reading through this thread that I have to wash out my ears with a strong soap, and then settle down with a Mozart quartet. Ah ...


OK. So I went over to the barn, cracked open a bar of Octagon soap ...









thoroughly washed out my ears, and headed for the stereo rig. I couldn't find my Mozart string quartet record, so I settled for a quartet by a West Virginian feller named George Crumb. A piece he titled "Black Angels". Heck ... it's jist the same as Mozart, aint it? One classical string quartet or another? What difference does it make?






Anyhow ... I feel totally purged now. Ahhhh!

Now ... what was the topic again? Oh yeah. Death metal.


----------



## PetrB

The Sound Of Perseverance said:


> Atlanta
> Crime rates (2010)
> Crime type	Rate*
> Homicide:	17.7
> Forcible rape:	16.6
> Robbery:	403
> Aggravated assault:	634.7
> Total Violent crime:	1,071.6
> Burglary:	1,494.2
> Larceny-theft:	3307
> Motor vehicle theft:	940
> Total Property crime:	5741
> Notes
> * Number of reported crimes per 100,000 population.


Chicago, 2012: Murders = 500


----------



## KenOC

PetrB said:


> Chicago, 2012: Murders = 500


An improvement since 1992, when there were 943 murders. Still...


----------



## opus55

Only one of the reasons I prefer to reside outside the city of Chicago. Total number of homicides in Chicago used to rival New York City's. Chicago's population is like 1/3 of NYC though (don't know exact numbers).


----------



## BurningDesire

millionrainbows said:


> A Harmonic Analysis of "Metal" Music
> 
> "Heavy" rock evolved out of blues music. This was a mainly British phenomenon, with groups such as Cream, Deep Purple, and others.
> 
> What heavy rock took from blues was: the pentatonic scale, usually the minor variety.
> 
> What it changed: it used a 4/4 rock beat, instead of the 12/8 three-division "shuffle" or jazz beat. This is a conservatively Western (white man) approach to rhythm.
> 
> It eventually turned the minor pentatonic sound into a "minor-scale" sound, which was no great leap. This is also a Western conservative move.
> 
> Metal rock is tonal in the broad sense of being tone-centric; however, it does not have "harmonic functions" as tonality does, except in the most rudimentary sense, such as simple V-I's.
> 
> This lack of function is due to the fact that metal music is primarily melodic; its "chords" (usually simple root/fifth diads) derive their apparent "root movement" from melodic considerations, usually outlining a pentatonic scale.
> 
> I see metal music as harmonically and rhythmically conservative, and very "white" in the sense that although it derives from black blues, it eschews most of the complex non-Western (African) features in favor of a simian simplicity.
> 
> In other words, boring, simplistic music for boring adolescents.


I like we can just change the value of ideas in whatever direction we want to suit a particular argument. We don't like metal, so the Western elements of it are inherently a flaw, right? Pretty much everything you've said is an oversimplification, or its just plain wrong Million. For instance the claim that "heavy rock" bands just swapped out 12/8 for 4/4, when there's plenty of tunes by many of the big bands of that era, like Cream and Led Zeppelin, that used swing rhythms and other various kinds of beat patterns (also, why the white man quip? rhythmic complexity in music has nothing to do with skin color). Its easy to just dismiss the work of tons of different artists by lumping them together as if they are just a single inept entity.

You also bring up the kinds of scale materials used by these bands, and really it runs the spectrum of scales and modes one can find in the western 12-tone scale. Of course there is the prevalence of the pentatonic scale, as is typical of most folk music, and guitar is heavily entwined in many folk traditions, not just blues. There's also plenty of use of the diatonic scales and modes, and there's even quite alot of metal that doesn't really utilize scales so much as pitch sets, such as emphasizing tritone relationships and minor seconds (which isn't really a very conservative western approach, unless we're going to call modernism conservative at this point).

Then there's your analysis of hard rock and metal harmonic systems, which I don't have much gripe with... but I don't see why this is somehow bad. I find the fact that these perfect 5th and 4th diads are given a harmonic function through their melodic context (and also, you failed to bring up, the fact that they are being played on highly distorted guitars, thus amplifying the overtones and enhancing that effect greatly in a very interesting way). I find that to be rather interesting. I mean, you're free to not think its interesting, but I don't see how its an inherently less interesting harmonic approach in any technical sense.

I see metal as a very diverse idiom with plenty of interesting music to offer to those who will actually listen without prejudice in their minds. It is music that can be extremely rewarding, just as much as great works in any idiom.

Or I suppose I am just a boring, simian adolescent...


----------



## BurningDesire

aleazk said:


> You have a whole classical music forum saying to you that you are mistaken, that this music is not at all complex in the level you think. A lot of us here are musicians, composers, with formal training, etc. Really, we are simply saying honestly what we think, but you are getting all emotional about. Relax, and we will relax also. As somebody said: it's just music, I'm not stealing your girlfriend for god's sake...


Oh no, how dare somebody get emotional when something they clearly care alot about and are emotionally invested in is callously berated and dismissed and insulted by a ton of people, when they only asked a harmless, innocent if a bit naiive question. Its like hitting somebody and then crying to the teacher when they hit you back.


----------



## Lukecash12

BurningDesire said:


> I like we can just change the value of ideas in whatever direction we want to suit a particular argument. We don't like metal, so the Western elements of it are inherently a flaw, right? Pretty much everything you've said is an oversimplification, or its just plain wrong Million. For instance the claim that "heavy rock" bands just swapped out 12/8 for 4/4, when there's plenty of tunes by many of the big bands of that era, like Cream and Led Zeppelin, that used swing rhythms and other various kinds of beat patterns (also, why the white man quip? rhythmic complexity in music has nothing to do with skin color). Its easy to just dismiss the work of tons of different artists by lumping them together as if they are just a single inept entity.
> 
> You also bring up the kinds of scale materials used by these bands, and really it runs the spectrum of scales and modes one can find in the western 12-tone scale. Of course there is the prevalence of the pentatonic scale, as is typical of most folk music, and guitar is heavily entwined in many folk traditions, not just blues. There's also plenty of use of the diatonic scales and modes, and there's even quite alot of metal that doesn't really utilize scales so much as pitch sets, such as emphasizing tritone relationships and minor seconds (which isn't really a very conservative western approach, unless we're going to call modernism conservative at this point).
> 
> Then there's your analysis of hard rock and metal harmonic systems, which I don't have much gripe with... but I don't see why this is somehow bad. I find the fact that these perfect 5th and 4th diads are given a harmonic function through their melodic context (and also, you failed to bring up, the fact that they are being played on highly distorted guitars, thus amplifying the overtones and enhancing that effect greatly in a very interesting way). I find that to be rather interesting. I mean, you're free to not think its interesting, but I don't see how its an inherently less interesting harmonic approach in any technical sense.
> 
> I see metal as a very diverse idiom with plenty of interesting music to offer to those who will actually listen without prejudice in their minds. It is music that can be extremely rewarding, just as much as great works in any idiom.
> 
> Or I suppose I am just a boring, simian adolescent...


Right, what's with this whole "white", "simian", "adolescent" and "teen" thing? Plenty of adults listen to this stuff. The guy who is doing your plumbing just might be a death metal fan, does that make him a big baby? Silly.


----------



## BurningDesire

aleazk said:


> Dude: really, stop and think about how ridiculous is what you are doing here. You come to a classical music forum in search of some sort of validation of your tastes? That's pathetic. 'Oh, classical music fans say that what I listen is complex', give me a break... and no, it's not even complex, it's just a pop song with steroids...


Yeah, well Schoenberg is just Wagner with wrong notes :3 and Webern is just really quite Schoenberg and the whole orchestra is too timid to play.


----------



## BurningDesire

echo said:


> yea it's just plain gay in the goofiest way and the fans are even worse


Is that an insinuation that there's something wrong with being gay?


----------



## BurningDesire

I like how this thread has all these folks insulting metal fans for being childish, and then bringing up things like age, sexuality and race... when those have nothing to do with this, as major parts of their insults and indictments of metal music. Stay classy y'all~


----------



## echo

BurningDesire said:


> Is that an insinuation that there's something wrong with being gay?


not at all --- i'm just pointing at the white elephant no one seems to address --- all these manly men screaming like girls for favorite their transvestites --- face it it's a very repressed genre

not only that it's red neck hill billy views on women are blatantly misogynistic


----------



## BurningDesire

echo said:


> have your tried spreading the good word about this ?
> 
> *awful Rebecca Black music video*
> 
> 70 million views --- damn genius


Again this flipping values whenever we feel like it. Oh, you can't argue that a piece of music is good simply because so many people love it.... except when we're arguing about how amazing Mozart is. Or you can't use numbers to validate your viewpoint, except when its all us classical music lovers deciding that metal is objectively bad. What's with this kind of logic?


----------



## BurningDesire

echo said:


> not at all --- i'm just pointing at the white elephant no one seems to address --- all these manly men screaming like girls for favorite their transvestites --- face it it's a very repressed genre
> 
> not only that it's red neck hill billy views on women are blatantly misogynistic
> 
> View attachment 49275


Yeah, every metal band has the exact same image, and the exact same values, and of course, if an artist expresses an idea in their art, then obviously its something they hold as a core value, right?


----------



## echo

BurningDesire said:


> Again this flipping values whenever we feel like it. Oh, you can't argue that a piece of music is good simply because so many people love it.... except when we're arguing about how amazing Mozart is. Or you can't use numbers to validate your viewpoint, except when its all us classical music lovers deciding that metal is objectively bad. What's with this kind of logic?


What's this we?
I'm never said the music was bad -- please stop lying


----------



## echo

BurningDesire said:


> Yeah, every metal band has the exact same image, and the exact same values, and of course, if an artist expresses an idea in their art, then obviously its something they hold as a core value, right?


gee i see what you did there, with the sarcastic know it all angle --- try staying on the topic


----------



## BurningDesire

echo said:


> What's this we?
> I'm never said the music was bad -- please stop lying


whatever
.............


----------



## BurningDesire

echo said:


> gee i see what you did there, with the sarcastic know it all angle --- try staying on the topic


Well at least one person on this thread should actually know what they're talking about, and I know metal music pretty well. Also, I'm the one who's talking about metal music, not questioning the sexuality of metal musicians and fans in an attempt to try and shame or demean them.


----------



## Lukecash12

Wow, this thread just got even more boring. "Nuh'uh". "Yeah huh". "I see what you did there". Dunno about you sound of P but I'm about ready to have a toke and just listen to some music.


----------



## echo

BurningDesire said:


> Well at least one person on this thread should actually know what they're talking about, and I know metal music pretty well. Also, I'm the one who's talking about metal music, not questioning the sexuality of metal musicians and fans in an attempt to try and shame or demean them.


I've already dealt with that accusation - for which you had nothing --- so i'll say it again i have nothing against homosexuality or metal, but the repressed misogynistic tendencies of this genre, just makes the tough guy metal head image appear goofier and gayer and also clearer as time passes

btw I have many gay friends and am a huge metal fan but i don't take it seriously


----------



## Lukecash12

echo said:


> I've already dealt with that accusation - for which you had nothing --- so i'll say it again i have nothing against homosexuality or metal, but the repressed misogynistic tendencies of this genre, just makes the tough guy metal head image appear goofier and gayer and also clearer as time passes
> 
> btw I have many gay friends and am a huge metal fan but i don't take it seriously
> 
> View attachment 49276


I don't see what's repressed or misogynistic here. Gay men can be just as masculine or "tough". I probably haven't mentioned this before but I used to be gay myself (hahahahaha, I wonder how many people here were expecting to read that).


----------



## BurningDesire

Lukecash12 said:


> I don't see what's repressed or misogynistic here. Gay men can be just as masculine or "tough". I probably haven't mentioned this before but I used to be gay myself (hahahahaha, I wonder how many people here were expecting to read that).


Used to be gay?


----------



## Lukecash12

BurningDesire said:


> Used to be gay?


Surprised much? Not everyone has the same orientation their whole life. I guess it may have been easier for me because I've always been physically attracted to both genders.


----------



## echo

Lukecash12 said:


> I don't see what's repressed or misogynistic here. Gay men can be just as masculine or "tough". I probably haven't mentioned this before but I used to be gay myself (hahahahaha, I wonder how many people here were expecting to read that).


this is a good place to start -- btw i mind my own business and your sexuality is none of it


----------



## Lukecash12

echo said:


> this is a good place to start -- btw i mind my own business and your sexuality is none of it


Right, I just mentioned that because I figured the Doc would get a laugh out of that if he read it. It's funny how much people change. But I digress: there is plenty of metal music out there that doesn't even address sexuality at all.


----------



## BurningDesire

Lukecash12 said:


> Surprised much? Not everyone has the same orientation their whole life. I guess it may have been easier for me because I've always been physically attracted to both genders.


Nah, I've heard of that before. Its just sadly sometimes there are people who say the used to be gay, and they're just the victims of some therapy, which of course I'm not accusing you of, I believe you ^_^


----------



## PetrB

The Sound Of Perseverance said:


> yes and i though i answered this already i want a non metal fans opinion on metal. I'm not trying to convert anyone I've gone through way to much of that myself between my friends and family i know what it feels like. i just want opinions that is my goal. I thought you guys would understand more than rap or pop fans but maybe i was wrong.


It is not a misunderstanding, but various people's simple personal opinions... I know that 'facing the firing squad' of classical enthusiasts can seem just like that -- daunting. Just keep in mind the same zealous general agreement between those who love metal, and then _your_ favored genre of the same; I would bet real money that to 'an outsider' with a preference for another type of music the metal group would be that much more [email protected]@ and dismissive, the social orders around so many pop genres being that much more a defined social group with innate musical hierarchies and allegiances, and those highly polarized _and political_ between "the Tribe" associated with one pop genre to the next.

At least classical fans tend to:
...embrace and zealously consume repertoire spanning about one thousand years of highly varied classical music from medieval to the present day.
...also have numerous other non-classical musical passions, from varieties of western pop to ethnic 'classical' and traditional musics the world over.

One thing for certain, you've run full tilt into the 'brick wall' of the classical fan's passion for classical, _and their evaluation of a lot of other musics based on an aesthetic built-up from their perspective of what they listen to most._

It is a mere turnaround view from 'another camp' -- and that not even unanimous -- and perhaps your first venture forth outside your 'tribal death metal fan circle.'

It certainly has not been dull, whether intended or not, do not regret your post, the opposite of dull here (and it happens) is good 

P.s. If you want to feel less singled out, look up any thread on "Is Film Music Classical?" LOL.


----------



## Cheyenne

PetrB said:


> It certainly has not been dull, whether intended or not, do not regret your post, the opposite of dull here (and it happens) is good


I'll say that about metal and everything involved with it: it's invariably fun.


----------



## The Sound Of Perseverance

This song has to do with abuse in relationships
Open casket:About seeing his older brother in an open casket when he was 11
Pull the plug:About being on life support
gimme a moment i got more


----------



## The Sound Of Perseverance

1,000 eyes: How are rights to privacy are being violated
a moment of clarity: When your life has been cloudy and rainy in your eyes but when you look past what your eyes can see (look deeper into soul) you'll find a moment of clarity (when everything is finally clear to you)


----------



## Guest

Lukecash12 said:


> Right, I just mentioned that because I figured the Doc would get a laugh out of that if he read it. It's funny how much people change. But I digress: there is plenty of metal music out there that doesn't even address sexuality at all.


Honestly, all this time I thought you were a lesbian left-handed eskimo midget albino. Now you're telling me the lesbian part is no longer true? My worldview has been shattered!!!!!:devil:


----------



## ribonucleic

The amusing thing is that classical music fans sneering at metal fans for being "uncool" is like Star Trek fans looking down on furries for being socially maladjusted. In the larger culture, the difference in their degree of marginalization is negligible, if not undetectable.


----------



## Guest

I don't think classical music fans are trying to be cool. Honestly - who goes into liking classical music thinking, "wow, now all the cool kids HAVE to accept me! Because I really dig Solti's Ring! And I have the latest recording of some music written 200 years ago!" We don't walk down the street with our Beethoven, or Bach, or Mozart T-shirts. There is usually no outward manifestation of our taste in classical music.

But I think even this thread has shown that liking metal, for some, includes trying to get other people to validate that.


----------



## BurningDesire

DrMike said:


> I don't think classical music fans are trying to be cool. Honestly - who goes into liking classical music thinking, "wow, now all the cool kids HAVE to accept me! Because I really dig Solti's Ring! And I have the latest recording of some music written 200 years ago!" We don't walk down the street with our Beethoven, or Bach, or Mozart T-shirts. There is usually no outward manifestation of our taste in classical music.
> 
> But I think even this thread has shown that liking metal, for some, includes trying to get other people to validate that.


I wear my Beethoven shirt :3


----------



## Guest

BurningDesire said:


> I wear my Beethoven shirt :3


All those Beethoven groupies must flock to you!


----------



## millionrainbows

Okay, since nobody seemed to be interested in my harmonic analysis, here is:

*A Sociological Analysis of Metal Music*

Popular music performs many extra-musical functions. Different musics represent and reinforce different lifestyles.

Metal music is designed to cater to the needs of adolescent males. It provides* "power fantasies" *for alienated, un-socialized, ineffective, helpless, powerless adolescent males.

The sexual fantasy elements provide part of this need for power and control, and the need for an empowered social identity, in an otherwise stultifying suburban environment.

It provides an area of "purgatory" where adolescence can be somewhat prolonged, before the inevitable descent into the "hell" of the working world takes its inevitable hold, and the wild spirit/Id is finally broken into submission, and the adolescent is finally "tamed" into a civilized role of a working drone.


----------



## Morimur

millionrainbows said:


> It provides an area of "purgatory" where adolescence can be somewhat prolonged, before the inevitable descent into the "hell" of the working world takes its inevitable hold, and the wild spirit/Id is finally broken into submission, and the adolescent is finally "tamed" into a civilized role of a working drone.


I wish this was true for ALL adolescents. Unfortunately there are MANY walking around in adult bodies, still behaving selfishly, irresponsibly and some, criminally. The ridiculous delusion of ENTITLEMENT is extremely common in adulthood.


----------



## BurningDesire

millionrainbows said:


> Okay, since nobody seemed to be interested in my harmonic analysis, here is:
> 
> *A Sociological Analysis of Metal Music*
> 
> Popular music performs many extra-musical functions. Different musics represent and reinforce different lifestyles.
> 
> Metal music is designed to cater to the needs of adolescent males. It provides* "power fantasies" *for alienated, un-socialized, ineffective, helpless, powerless adolescent males.
> 
> The sexual fantasy elements provide part of this need for power and control, and the need for an empowered social identity, in an otherwise stultifying suburban environment.
> 
> It provides an area of "purgatory" where adolescence can be somewhat prolonged, before the inevitable descent into the "hell" of the working world takes its inevitable hold, and the wild spirit/Id is finally broken into submission, and the adolescent is finally "tamed" into a civilized role of a working drone.


Why bother posting if you're just going to ignore substantive counter-arguments to yours and claim nobody was interested?


----------



## BurningDesire

DrMike said:


> All those Beethoven groupies must flock to you!


Well, I suppose I am rather Beethoven-like :3 musical genius... true artist... yeah, I'm like the Beethoven of our time really :3 except BETTER! Cause I'm me and not some dead German guy who wrote dun dun dun duhhhhhh or whatever.


----------



## Guest

BurningDesire...you wouldn't happen to post on Ultimate Metal as an anime-loving arrogant feminazi would you? My apologies if not - after all you behave much better here! But I'm noticing some resemblances between you and this other guy...


----------



## PetrB

Cheyenne said:


> I'll say that about metal and everything involved with it: it's invariably fun.


Metal has never been my cuppa any sort of fun, but in a thread, _"is it as good as / does it compare to classical?"_ well that always makes for a fun show -- including those charmingly youthful types of fans of the genre who are so stunned that anyone else might dislike it or, heaven forfend, actually think very little of it.

I mean, this sort of astonishment that not all love the genre they do...









... and that's kinda cute


----------



## Lukecash12

DrMike said:


> Honestly, all this time I thought you were a lesbian left-handed eskimo midget albino. Now you're telling me the lesbian part is no longer true? My worldview has been shattered!!!!!:devil:


Hmmmm... you weren't too far off, I am really pale. But left handed? What do you take me for?


----------



## KenOC

Lukecash12 said:


> Hmmmm... you weren't too far off, I am really pale. But left handed? What do you take me for?


"In tests conducted by Dr. Alan Searleman from St Lawrence University in New York, he found that left-handers can be considerably more intellectually gifted. There were more left-handed people with IQs over 140 than right-handed people - which is the "genius" bracket."

It's on the Internet, so it must be true!


----------



## Lukecash12

DrMike said:


> I don't think classical music fans are trying to be cool. Honestly - who goes into liking classical music thinking, "wow, now all the cool kids HAVE to accept me! Because I really dig Solti's Ring! And I have the latest recording of some music written 200 years ago!" We don't walk down the street with our Beethoven, or Bach, or Mozart T-shirts. There is usually no outward manifestation of our taste in classical music.
> 
> But I think even this thread has shown that liking metal, for some, includes trying to get other people to validate that.


Are you kidding me, I have like a dozen Bach t-shirts. Won't step into a bar without one.


----------



## The Sound Of Perseverance

PetrB said:


> Metal has never been my cuppa any sort of fun, but in a thread, _"is it as good as / does it compare to classical,"_ well that always makes for a fun show -- including those charmingly youthful types of fans of the genre who are so stunned that anyone else might dislike it or, heaven forfend, actually think very little of it.
> 
> I mean, this sort of astonishment that not all love the genre they do...
> 
> View attachment 49330
> 
> 
> ... and that's kinda cute


this was me like 10 hors ago lol and it may still be me to a certain degree haha as a metalhead i will be forever young


----------



## Morimur

BurningDesire said:


> Is that an insinuation that there's something wrong with being gay?


Right or wrong, he's entitled to his opinion just as you are. Freedom of speech goes both ways.


----------



## Lukecash12

KenOC said:


> "In tests conducted by Dr. Alan Searleman from St Lawrence University in New York, he found that left-handers can be considerably more intellectually gifted. There were more left-handed people with IQs over 140 than right-handed people - which is the "genius" bracket."
> 
> It's on the Internet, so it must be true!


Meh, you know they say once you get up to that range IQ scores become less and less accurate. I even used to practice IQ tests and once you're really comfortable with the _specific types_ of logic they're asking for you can easily get scores above 150 when you're really more of a 130.

Btw, any Mensa or Prometheus members here? They have all kinds of free publications that are pretty cool.


----------



## Guest

Lukecash12 said:


> Are you kidding me, I have like a dozen Bach t-shirts. Won't step into a bar without one.


Do the T-shirts somehow make it hurt less?


----------



## Lukecash12

DrMike said:


> Do the T-shirts somehow make it hurt less?


No but a good stiff ale does help with the arthritis. Bach's just there to be a conversation piece.


----------



## Cheyenne

The Sound Of Perseverance said:


> this was me like 10 hors ago lol and it may still be me to a certain degree haha *as a metalhead i will be forever young*


The Youth, who daily farther from the east 
Must travel, still is Nature's priest, 
And by the vision splendid 
Is on his way attended;​At length the Man perceives it die away, 
And fade into the light of common day.​
You better prepare yourself: someday you too will grow old and grey :tiphat:

Even Zebraman, the punk-hating metalhead from _Heavy Metal Parking Lot_ turned into a regular, solid, Country-loving citizen:




---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

By the way, would somebody please post Millionrainbow's posts on a Metal Forum? _That_ would be good fun. :lol:


----------



## Lukecash12

Cheyenne said:


> The Youth, who daily farther from the east
> Must travel, still is Nature's priest,
> And by the vision splendid
> Is on his way attended;​At length the Man perceives it die away,
> And fade into the light of common day.​
> You better prepare yourself: someday you too will grow old and grey :tiphat:
> 
> Even Zebraman, the punk-hating metalhead from _Heavy Metal Parking Lot_ turned into a regular, solid, Country-loving citizen:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> By the way, would somebody please post Millionrainbow's posts on a Metal Forum? _That_ would be good fun. :lol:


Maybe I'll do that later today and let you guys know how the experiment went.


----------



## PetrB

The Sound Of Perseverance said:


> this was me like 10 hors ago lol and it may still be me to a certain degree haha as a metalhead _i will be forever young_


Well, Peter Pan, that's just not exactly true, _but,_ the music of your youth will always have a sentimental pull, and evoke a nostalgia about 'when you were young' -- when you no longer are young, that is


----------



## Blake

The body aging doesn't always entail maturity of the mind.


----------



## Guest

The Sound Of Perseverance said:


> this was me like 10 hors ago lol and it may still be me to a certain degree haha as a metalhead i will be forever young


Ah, the vanities of youth and thinking they will ever be so. Wait until your body is no longer waxing stronger, and you become more and more acquainted with aspirin and ibuprofen and Alleve to dull the daily aches and pains.

And is there anything that looks sadder than an aged metalhead?


----------



## Guest

Vesuvius said:


> The body aging doesn't always entail maturity of the mind.


No, but there is a strong correlation. And they are more likely found together than youth and maturity of the mind.


----------



## Morimur

DrMike said:


> Ah, the vanities of youth and thinking they will ever be so. Wait until your body is no longer waxing stronger, and you become more and more acquainted with aspirin and ibuprofen and Alleve to dull the daily aches and pains.
> 
> And is there anything that looks sadder than an aged metalhead?
> 
> View attachment 49336
> 
> View attachment 49337


I'd like to add...


----------



## Blake

DrMike said:


> No, but there is a strong correlation. And they are more likely found together than youth and maturity of the mind.


It's just not an objective. I've known many people who actually became more ignorant. Just went through life picking up nonsense after nonsense.


----------



## Cheyenne

DrMike said:


> And is there anything that looks sadder than an aged metalhead?


Yeah, they didn't really think ahead with the tattoos and make-up, did they? Spandex pants tend not to look too great on 60 year-old men either :lol:


----------



## Marschallin Blair

> DrMike: Ah, the vanities of youth and thinking they will ever be so.


Don't let youth and beauty get under your skin. . .

The envious will die, but envy never.

_;D_


----------



## The Sound Of Perseverance

Cheyenne said:


> The Youth, who daily farther from the east
> Must travel, still is Nature's priest,
> And by the vision splendid
> Is on his way attended;​At length the Man perceives it die away,
> And fade into the light of common day.​
> You better prepare yourself: someday you too will grow old and grey :tiphat:
> 
> Even Zebraman, the punk-hating metalhead from _Heavy Metal Parking Lot_ turned into a regular, solid, Country-loving citizen:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> By the way, would somebody please post Millionrainbow's posts on a Metal Forum? _That_ would be good fun. :lol:


AHH i don't want to think of it! :lol:


----------



## The Sound Of Perseverance

DrMike said:


> Ah, the vanities of youth and thinking they will ever be so. Wait until your body is no longer waxing stronger, and you become more and more acquainted with aspirin and ibuprofen and Alleve to dull the daily aches and pains.
> 
> And is there anything that looks sadder than an aged metalhead?
> 
> View attachment 49336
> 
> View attachment 49337


not much! hey maybe ill die young!


----------



## Guest

Vesuvius said:


> It's just not an objective. I've known many people who actually became more ignorant. Just went through life picking up nonsense after nonsense.


What isn't an objective, maturity of mind? Well, be that as it may, it is still less likely to be found in the young, and more likely to be found in the old. Exceptions are not the rules. Part of that maturity comes with experience, and that simply requires time. For most people, they go through a period of intense learning in their youth, and combine that with the teenage years and they hit a period where they think they have achieved the pinnacle, and are vastly superior in their new knowledge than their elders. Then something happens - usually they leave home and the protection and comforts of the nest - and they come to realize that there is still so much they do not know, and that their elders might actually be ahead of them. Then they really start to learn. Most of us go through it. Because when we are young, and safely sheltered by parents, it is pretty much all pure knowledge, but not wisdom. We have not yet had to attempt to apply our ideas and knowledge to the world around us. Then we learn that the world does not bend to our will, and that theory is not always the same thing as reality.


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## Guest

The Sound Of Perseverance said:


> not much! hey maybe ill die young!


Why? Believe it or not, the best parts of life actually happen AFTER your teenage years, if you plan it right.


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## Blake

DrMike said:


> What isn't an objective, maturity of mind? Well, be that as it may, it is still less likely to be found in the young, and more likely to be found in the old. Exceptions are not the rules. Part of that maturity comes with experience, and that simply requires time. For most people, they go through a period of intense learning in their youth, and combine that with the teenage years and they hit a period where they think they have achieved the pinnacle, and are vastly superior in their new knowledge than their elders. Then something happens - usually they leave home and the protection and comforts of the nest - and they come to realize that there is still so much they do not know, and that their elders might actually be ahead of them. Then they really start to learn. Most of us go through it. Because when we are young, and safely sheltered by parents, it is pretty much all pure knowledge, but not wisdom. We have not yet had to attempt to apply our ideas and knowledge to the world around us. Then we learn that the world does not bend to our will, and that theory is not always the same thing as reality.


None of this is the 'rule', is what I'm saying. Simply because something seems more probable doesn't make it objective. Again, I've seen many opposite cases.


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## Cheyenne

The Sound Of Perseverance said:


> not much! hey maybe ill die young!


Ah yes, "how much better to die in all the happy period of undisillusioned youth, to go out in a blaze of light, than to have your body worn out and old and illusions shattered," as Hemingway wrote in a letter! What's your plan? Hanging yourself with the strings of your guitar, like the boy from _The Crimson Idol_?



DrMike said:


> What isn't an objective, maturity of mind? Well, be that as it may, it is still less likely to be found in the young, and more likely to be found in the old. Exceptions are not the rules. Part of that maturity comes with experience, and that simply requires time. For most people, they go through a period of intense learning in their youth, and combine that with the teenage years and they hit a period where they think they have achieved the pinnacle, and are vastly superior in their new knowledge than their elders. Then something happens - usually they leave home and the protection and comforts of the nest - and they come to realize that there is still so much they do not know, and that their elders might actually be ahead of them. Then they really start to learn. Most of us go through it. Because when we are young, and safely sheltered by parents, it is pretty much all pure knowledge, but not wisdom. We have not yet had to attempt to apply our ideas and knowledge to the world around us. Then we learn that the world does not bend to our will, and that theory is not always the same thing as reality.


A beautiful description. I stand by Hazlitt's essay-masterpiece _On The Feeling of Immortality in Youth_ as the best description of the passage from youth into maturity.


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## Guest

Marschallin Blair said:


> Don't let youth and beauty get under your skin. . .
> 
> The envious will die, but envy never.
> 
> _;D_


Beauty is something I have never had to concern myself with. And youth and I parted ways some time ago. I don't miss it so much, except when the arthritis kicks in. But there is not a lot of envy. I see a lot of crap that teenagers these days have to deal with, and I am quite comfortable with being middle-aged, married, living comfortably with my wife and 2 kids. Much better than how I had it as a teenager - and I have more spending money now.


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## Morimur

DrMike said:


> Why? Believe it or not, the best parts of life actually happen AFTER your teenage years, if you plan it right.


Can't say I planned life after my teenage years, but so far, so good.


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## PetrB

Cheyenne said:


> ...would somebody please post Millionrainbow's posts on a Metal Forum? _That_ would be good fun. :lol:


Only if they include all the auto-didact / self-concluded 'data' on the maths of acoustics, intervallic ratios, etc. -- i.e. 'the theory of it all' behind the music.'

Who knows... if presented in that alternative universe, it just might impress!


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## Guest

Vesuvius said:


> None of this is the 'rule', is what I'm saying. Simply because something seems more probable doesn't make it objective. Again, I've seen many opposite cases.


No, you are right. It isn't the rule. Very little in life comes for free, except death. But still, while not all older people are wise, most wise people tend to be older. And wisdom is less likely to be found among the young. Whether a person seeks after wisdom and maturity is unrelated to the length of time it typically takes to achieve such things. Not everybody seeks out a Ph.D., but for those who do, it is going to take a few years. Those who have been in graduate school for 4+ years are much more likely to earn a Ph.D. than those who are only in their first year.


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## Blake

DrMike said:


> No, you are right. It isn't the rule. Very little in life comes for free, except death. But still, while not all older people are wise, most wise people tend to be older. And wisdom is less likely to be found among the young. Whether a person seeks after wisdom and maturity is unrelated to the length of time it typically takes to achieve such things. Not everybody seeks out a Ph.D., but for those who do, it is going to take a few years. Those who have been in graduate school for 4+ years are much more likely to earn a Ph.D. than those who are only in their first year.


We can agree on this. :tiphat:


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## Guest

Lope de Aguirre said:


> Can't say I planned life after my teenage years, but so far, so good.


As a teenager, most of the planning merely comes from making the most of those years. Studying hard so that more doors are open to you at the end of those years, and not screwing your life up too much.


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## The Sound Of Perseverance

Cheyenne said:


> Ah yes, "how much better to die in all the happy period of undisillusioned youth, to go out in a blaze of light, than to have your body worn out and old and illusions shattered," as Hemingway wrote in a letter! What's your plan? Hanging yourself with the strings of your guitar, like the boy from _The Crimson Idol_?
> 
> A beautiful description. I stand by Hazlitt's essay-masterpiece _On The Feeling of Immortality in Youth_ as the best description of the passage from youth into maturity.


hey maybe a bit more graceful! lol no i don't plan on dying anytime soon


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## The Sound Of Perseverance

DrMike said:


> As a teenager, most of the planning merely comes from making the most of those years. Studying hard so that more doors are open to you at the end of those years, and not screwing your life up too much.


nah man i don't want to die id rather live my life out to the fullest


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## Marschallin Blair

> DrMike: Beauty is something I have never had to concern myself with.


That's certainly my algorithm.

"Lights! Cameras! . . . and me without make-up!"


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## Cheyenne

I actually know many people who are utterly terrified of aging. They simply can't imagine their life beyond 30, when their body will slowly start degenerating. Most women in that situation cling to children as a way to "repeat" childhood; most men cling to material possessions they will have amassed by then. I always think of them when I read Wordsworth's _Ode: Intimations of Immortality from the Recollections of Early Childhood_. I let a girl who was very fond of nostalgic reveries read it, and I could swear it brought a few gentle tears to her eyes.

But though we cannot weave over again the airy, unsubstantial dream, which reason and experience have dispelled,

"What thong' the radiance, which was once so bright,
Be now for ever taken from our sight,
Though nothing can bring back the hour
Of glory in the grass, of splendour in the flower:" --​
yet we will never cease, nor be prevented from returning on the wings of imagination to that bright dream of our youth[.]​
(Hazlitt loved (mis)quoting that passage from the _Ode _by the way: he used it numerous times.)


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## The Sound Of Perseverance

Cheyenne said:


> I actually know many people who are utterly terrified of aging. They simply can't imagine their life beyond 30, when their body will slowly start degenerating. Most women in that situation cling to children as a way to "repeat" childhood; most men cling to material possessions they will have amassed by then. I always think of them when I read Wordsworth's _Ode: Intimations of Immortality from the Recollections of Early Childhood_. I let a girl who was very fond of nostalgic reveries read it, and I could swear it brought a few gentle tears to her eyes.
> 
> But though we cannot weave over again the airy, unsubstantial dream, which reason and experience have dispelled,
> 
> "What thong' the radiance, which was once so bright,
> Be now for ever taken from our sight,
> Though nothing can bring back the hour
> Of glory in the grass, of splendour in the flower:" --​
> yet we will never cease, nor be prevented from returning on the wings of imagination to that bright dream of our youth[.]​
> (Hazlitt loved (mis)quoting that passage from the _Ode _by the way: he used it numerous times.)


i don't know... it just seems pretty distant from now I've never been really scared of the physical part of aging. i just don't want to die.


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## Cheyenne

The Sound Of Perseverance said:


> i don't know... it just seems pretty distant from now I've never been really scared of the physical part of aging. i just don't want to die.


Ah, that's part of it too. There's this one sweet girl who said every time she thinks of death she grows melancholy, fills up with anxiety and almost panics -- ever since her grandmother died. Older men who have grown sadder and wiser have told me one "warms up" even to death as one ages; I hope it'll be so. In any case, better not bring the problems of youth into adulthood -- adulthood brings its own problems.


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## The Sound Of Perseverance

to keep this a death metal thread, here




by the way who the hell took down the first video i posted tell me who did it now




origin is not my favorite band but they're pretty sick


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## The Sound Of Perseverance

truth this is thank you


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## Cheyenne

The Sound Of Perseverance said:


> to keep this a death metal thread, here


Lol, all I can think when I hear those lyrics is: those guys have some serious issues! :lol:

drained of her lifesblood and nourished with **** 
sodomized
defeminized 
I am the victor 
vengeance is mine

I watched the bitter tears slalom down grief stricken faces 
for a moments time I feel I am the god of which they speak​


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## The Sound Of Perseverance

Cheyenne said:


> Lol, all I can think when I hear those lyrics is: those guys have some serious issues! :lol:
> 
> drained of her lifesblood and nourished with ****
> sodomized
> defeminized
> I am the victor
> vengeance is mine
> 
> I watched the bitter tears slalom down grief stricken faces
> for a moments time I feel I am the god of which they speak​


haha yes death metal lyrics scared me at first until i realized that most of them were tung and cheek. unless were counting Deicide,vital remains and morbid angel. but thats ok i realized i don't have to listen to the lyrics in order to get enjoyment out of a song


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## Taggart

Members are reminded of the terms of service :

*Be polite to your fellow members. If you disagree with them, please state your opinion in a »civil« and respectful manner. *

Various inappropriate and / or impolite posts have been removed.

The thread is closed for repairs.


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