# Das Rheingold Vs. Die Walkure



## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

I've been reading Bryan Magee's book, The Tristan Chord, and finding it very interesting indeed. It is hard to imagine him to have nearly as much expertise as he claims, and he spends an awful lot of time talking about how other people think; but on the other hand, he has quite a lot to say and much of it seems on point and ... hmm ... HE seems to believe strongly that it's well-founded. No, that's not quite right. He seems to have spent a fair amount of quiet time on his own trying to make sure it's well-founded. I think that's it. I don't think he has the education to be able to tell for sure, but he could be right, I don't know. I was quite surprised, on reading his Wiki bio, to find that he apparently has no advanced degree, since his jacket bio says he has been a university professor.

Anyway. One thing he says I wanted to check with you all. He thinks Das Rheingold not nearly as good as Die Walkure. Is that your feeling as well?


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## Logos (Nov 3, 2012)

guythegreg said:


> I've been reading Bryan Magee's book, The Tristan Chord, and finding it very interesting indeed. It is hard to imagine him to have nearly as much expertise as he claims, and he spends an awful lot of time talking about how other people think; but on the other hand, he has quite a lot to say and much of it seems on point and ... hmm ... HE seems to believe strongly that it's well-founded. No, that's not quite right. He seems to have spent a fair amount of quiet time on his own trying to make sure it's well-founded. I think that's it. I don't think he has the education to be able to tell for sure, but he could be right, I don't know. I was quite surprised, on reading his Wiki bio, to find that he apparently has no advanced degree, since his jacket bio says he has been a university professor.
> 
> Anyway. One thing he says I wanted to check with you all. He thinks Das Rheingold not nearly as good as Die Walkure. Is that your feeling as well?


I read the book. My impression of Magee was that he is largely self-educated.

As for the Das Rheingold compared to Die Walkuere, that opinion was also held by Ernest Newman, who was an excellent musical scholar, and who felt that the Ring got better as it went on, Goetterdaemerung being the best.

As a mere musical layman, Das Rheingold seems musically stiffer, more classical, artificial, colder, more cautious than the later works. It is less contrapuntally rich and less ornamented too. Then again it was an introduction, and therefore the themes are naturally presented in their simplest forms, to be developed and combined later. In Rheingold I think he was trying to do something so completely different from anything that had gone before that he adhered to closely to careful, artificial conceits developed out of theorizing about the relation of the words to the music. Later in the Ring, I think he was more confident and abandoned some of these theories, realizing he could do better without them.


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## Volve (Apr 14, 2013)

To be perfectly honest, I think Die Walkure is the best one in the Ring cycle (personal opinion from here onwards!). Yes, Siegfried and Gotterdammerung probably are much more advanced in their writtings, but when you include the feelings and the souls, Die Walkure is, to me, the one that stands out. Sieglinde and Siegmund cause a huge ethical conflict, because their love is beautiful, and yet they are twins, and Wagner keeps reminding you of that throught the libretto... The scene in act 2 with Wotan and Fricka is incredibly tense, it really pushes a sense of law and reality after the wonderful love scene of act 1, and then the mad scene of Sieglinde, so intense! 

And well, I don't think I need to talk about the whole opera, but yes, I agree that Die Walkure is superior to Das Rheingold.
But Logos, I actually thin that the music in Rheingold might be something to put a setting into the opera. The music there can be somewhat rustic, which would reflect a somewhat early age in the beggining of time, think about the Eddas. It was a very rustic time, and maybe the music is ment to reflect that. You can see that it progresses to become much more complex as the operas go along, maybe personal development, or maybe to go with the progression of the timeline.


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## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

Magee's idea was that in Das Rheingold Wagner was composing to a program, a set of ideas that hadn't been really internalized, and that as he gained confidence and fluency in his system his music became more beautiful ... so I guess that fits in pretty well with what you two have said, as well. Thanks.


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## JCarmel (Feb 3, 2013)

if 'Die Walkure' was the better...I'd prefer it, wouldn't I? As it is, Das Rheingold is my favourite of the four...so there must be a reason for that...so I'm saying 'No way, Bri!'

I bought both LP sets of the Solti cycle way-back-when....but I consistently played Rheingold after that initial period & didn't bother anything like so much, with Walkure. And there's got to be a reason for that, irrespective of whatever Messrs. Magee & Newman think.
You see, the issue of what sounds good to an ignoramus like myself, is contaminated and muddied by the application of intellect....leading to false judgement! So, I'm judging by what is good for listening-to, alone. Walkure is a little boring, basically!!


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## superhorn (Mar 23, 2010)

I don't think Das Rheingold is "inferior" to the rest of the Ring, just DIFFERENT . Also, you have to realize that
the Ring was conceived and written over a period of more than 20 years, so Wagner grew and matured as composer 
in the course of the Ring's progress . 
Still, Das Rheingold is full of brilliant and strikingly original music . The amazing prelude ,which consists of an
unvarying e flat major chord , the continuous action in four interconnected scenes with orchestral interludes ,
the revolutionary use of orchestral color , etc. Nothing like this had ever existed before .


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

These days I listen to Rheingold more than the other 3 operas.


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## badRomance (Nov 22, 2011)

Yes. The drama in Walküre is more powerful than in Das Rheingold. Vocally, there are more hits for me in Walküre spread over the course of the opera; in the Das Rheingold, those hits come at the beginning and end. Also I love Birgit Nilsson but there is no part for her in Das Rheingold except as a Rheinmaiden -- not sure if that was ever recorded.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Walkure is my favourite of the Ring operas. It is strikingly beautiful and with little of the bombast that afficts some of the rest of the cycle. It is, of course, somewhat over-long - Wagner (as ever) could have done with pruning his libretto. But the beauty remains, especially when conducted by Karajan.


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## kelseythepterodactyl (Sep 5, 2013)

I couldn't say which is better, as I have never been able to finish Walkure. I just lose attention when Wotan is being all angry at the very beginning - not sure exactly what it is that puts me off. But since a lot of you like it better I am going to try to force my way through.

So, for me so far, Rheingold is winning. We'll see.


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## Revenant (Aug 27, 2013)

For fairly new Wagnerites such as me, Rheingold is the most accessible in the Ring. It begins the thread of themes that will mature later in the cycle and, as such, is more of a Prologue or Introduction (as Wagner intended iirc) than a well-balanced companion piece to any of the other three installments. Like Itullian, until recently I found myself listening to Rheingold more than the others. But lately my focus has shifted a bit towards Walkure, and have begun to get deeper into Gotterdammerung. Perhaps this progression from the point of view of the hearer/spectator, conforms to Wagner's authorial intent in presentation to an audience. And as someone suggested, do not take what the experts write in books as dictates on how you should feel or even think about an opera. Accept their views as basically researched opinions that are ultimately based on personal taste. In that sense they are useful and illuminating. Particularly Newman's. His scholarship is to be respected, but our personal taste is our own. We must find our Wagner, and any other artist for that matter, for ourselves.


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## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

JCarmel said:


> if 'Die Walkure' was the better...I'd prefer it, wouldn't I? As it is, Das Rheingold is my favourite of the four...so there must be a reason for that...so I'm saying 'No way, Bri!'
> 
> I bought both LP sets of the Solti cycle way-back-when....but I consistently played Rheingold after that initial period & didn't bother anything like so much, with Walkure. And there's got to be a reason for that, irrespective of whatever Messrs. Magee & Newman think.
> You see, the issue of what sounds good to an ignoramus like myself, is contaminated and muddied by the application of intellect....leading to false judgement! So, I'm judging by what is good for listening-to, alone. Walkure is a little boring, basically!!


Well, Magee waxes quite rhapsodic about the stature of Wagner as the greatest artist ever on any planet, so he's not really bringing any great intellectual prowess to bear on his ideas there. Obviously his taste is different from yours or mine - I have yet to really enjoy Wagner except for Parsifal and Lohengrin - but half the fun of popping in here is discovering just how radically different others' ideas can be from my own! Thanks.


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## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

Itullian said:


> These days I listen to Rheingold more than the other 3 operas.


I've been thinking maybe my mistake with Wagner was to pay TOO MUCH attention to the libretto - I'm thinking with Die Walkure I'll just leave the libretto out of it and just listen to the music and see what happens. It's the words I really couldn't stomach, with Das Rheingold, so... we'll see! And if it works, I'll go back to Rheingold and try it that way too. We'll see!


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## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

badRomance said:


> Yes. The drama in Walküre is more powerful than in Das Rheingold. Vocally, there are more hits for me in Walküre spread over the course of the opera; in the Das Rheingold, those hits come at the beginning and end. Also I love Birgit Nilsson but there is no part for her in Das Rheingold except as a Rheinmaiden -- not sure if that was ever recorded.


So you're saying I should listen to Die Walkure with Nilsson in it, for sure! Gotcha.


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## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

DavidA said:


> Walkure is my favourite of the Ring operas. It is strikingly beautiful and with little of the bombast that afficts some of the rest of the cycle. It is, of course, somewhat over-long - Wagner (as ever) could have done with pruning his libretto. But the beauty remains, especially when conducted by Karajan.


Huh. I can't get one with Nilsson AND Karajan, can I?


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## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

kelseythepterodactyl said:


> I couldn't say which is better, as I have never been able to finish Walkure. I just lose attention when Wotan is being all angry at the very beginning - not sure exactly what it is that puts me off. But since a lot of you like it better I am going to try to force my way through.
> 
> So, for me so far, Rheingold is winning. We'll see.


Right, as I said a minute ago I plan to try it while paying no attention whatever to the libretto and see if that has any effect. Sounds like maybe you could try that as well! Who knows.


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## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

Revenant said:


> For fairly new Wagnerites such as me, Rheingold is the most accessible in the Ring. It begins the thread of themes that will mature later in the cycle and, as such, is more of a Prologue or Introduction (as Wagner intended iirc) than a well-balanced companion piece to any of the other three installments. Like Itullian, until recently I found myself listening to Rheingold more than the others. But lately my focus has shifted a bit towards Walkure, and have begun to get deeper into Gotterdammerung. Perhaps this progression from the point of view of the hearer/spectator, conforms to Wagner's authorial intent in presentation to an audience. And as someone suggested, do not take what the experts write in books as dictates on how you should feel or even think about an opera. Accept their views as basically researched opinions that are ultimately based on personal taste. In that sense they are useful and illuminating. Particularly Newman's. His scholarship is to be respected, but our personal taste is our own. We must find our Wagner, and any other artist for that matter, for ourselves.


My friend, I think you nailed it there. Thanks.


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## Volve (Apr 14, 2013)

Revenant made an excelent point here, for introduction to Wagner, Rheingold is much, much more approachable than Walkerie. When I first started with Wagner, I would listen to Rheingold all the time, but only made very small pushes with the following work. But those pushes got bigger and bigger, and now I can listen to that opera up to 2 and a half times per day, and I do it whenever possible. So I might say I'm quite biased towards it  

But Rheingold does have some of the best pieces of music in the ring, particularly with the very beggining, with the Rhinemaidens. And everytime that Valhalla is revealed, no matter what production, if I'm watching it on DVD, a tear will roll down my face. Such a beautiful scene. 

"...but our personal taste is our own. We must find our Wagner, and any other artist for that matter, for ourselves." And this. This is the perfect definition of what music should be. Well said!


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## Volve (Apr 14, 2013)

guythegreg said:


> Huh. I can't get one with Nilsson AND Karajan, can I?


Never heard of a recording with those two, they didin't get along very well.


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## expat (Mar 17, 2013)

Currently prefer Rheingold. It moves faster and I love the Erda scene. The way everything stops when she appears. What in incredible movie the Ring would make.


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## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

expat said:


> Currently prefer Rheingold. It moves faster and I love the Erda scene. The way everything stops when she appears. What in incredible movie the Ring would make.


I can't think of Erda without thinking of Anna Russell ... "Be very, very careful! ...and she proceeded to bear him eight children." :lol:


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## Yashin (Jul 22, 2011)

Das Rheingold has long been my favourite part of the Ring but after seeing the London Proms version of Walkure - i quickly fell in love. Now i have been watching the Walkure from Frankfurt on DVD and love it more and more.

Having said that i have just seen some of the Frankfurt Siegfried and might fall head over for that one too!


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