# Are Mozart's String quintets really that good?



## Perotin

Charles Rosen wrote that "by general consent, Mozart's greatest achievement in chamber music is the group of string quintets with two violas." I've listened to all 6 of them recently, and I must say, I was disappointed a bit, I expected more. What you like (or dislike) about Mozart's string quintets? Help me find appreciation for them!


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## Ukko

Answering the question posed in the thread title:

Yes. The early quintet included, because it is a stepping stone.


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## Selby

Yes. Which recordings are people listening to / preferring?


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## Mandryka

Selby said:


> Yes. Which recordings are people listening to / preferring?


Kuijken
Tatrai
Orlando/Imai
Ensemble 415

If you can get it from symphonyshare the complete cycle from the Leipzig Quartet + Rode.

I should say I don't really know the early ones.

See what you think of this ultra serious one from a bunch of Juilliard students - I'm impressed by the movement forward maintained by the second viola player, and their accuracy


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## Mandryka

Perotin said:


> Charles Rosen wrote that "by general consent, Mozart's greatest achievement in chamber music is the group of string quintets with two violas." I've listened to all 6 of them recently, and I must say, I was disappointed a bit, I expected more. What you like (or dislike) about Mozart's string quintets? Help me find appreciation for them!


The thing I like most is that, in a good performance of one of the last quartets, there's an edgy quality. You get the same phenomenon in good performances of the last 10 quartets too.

But Mozart's not an easy composer to appreciate, he certainly wasn't for me, so I can appreciate where you're coming from.


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## Triplets

Perotin said:


> Charles Rosen wrote that "by general consent, Mozart's greatest achievement in chamber music is the group of string quintets with two violas." I've listened to all 6 of them recently, and I must say, I was disappointed a bit, I expected more. What you like (or dislike) about Mozart's string quintets? Help me find appreciation for them!


Beautiful melodies, richer textures than the Quartets due to the 5th instrument....give them some time


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## Avey

To steal from ahammel in another thread:


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## Woodduck

Avey said:


> To steal from ahammel in another thread:


One of the most astonishing movements in all chamber music. No, in all music.


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## OlivierM

Nothing here that Boccherini hasn't done far better, in my opinion.


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## Mandryka

OlivierM said:


> Nothing here that Boccherini hasn't done far better, in my opinion.


Perhaps you can give an example.


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## bharbeke

So far, the four of his quintets that I've heard have not risen above the level of average in the classical music world. Perhaps one of the other two or a different version will change my mind, but I'm not racing into either option.


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## Mandryka

bharbeke said:


> So far, the four of his quintets that I've heard have not risen above the level of average in the classical music world. Perhaps one of the other two or a different version will change my mind, but I'm not racing into either option.


I wonder what you think of the quartets, particularly the ones for Haydn - in truth I get more out of listening to some of them than most of the quintets. I don't find any of the quintets as stimulating as K428 for example, or K 387.

When you say that the quintets are "average in the classical music world." you have to take into account that the average, if we think of galant style, wasn't so high. Mozart's achievement in the last 10 quartets is very extraordinary, no other classical style composer came close as far as I know.


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## Guest

For me, I prefer Mozart's orchestral works. He isn't my favorite chamber music composer. That being said, the quintets are my favorite of his chamber music. Are they my favorites of the genre? No. I prefer Schubert's and Brahms'. Still, I really enjoy the quintets. My preferred recordings are on Philips, with the Grumiaux Trio, Arpad Gerecz, and Max Lesueur. That 3-CD set is also wonderful, because it comes packaged with the wonderful Divertimento in E-Flat, K. 563.


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## bharbeke

I've liked #15 (417b), #22 (589), and #23 (590) of Mozart's string quartets, although I have yet to listen to some of them, including 387 and 428. In general, I've had a hard time finding string quartet recordings that I really like.

My definition of average is a piece that has no major detractions but also nothing to make me sit up and take notice. I apply the same standards to every piece. I may be able to pick a favorite in a particular field, but all pieces should be able to hold their own against any given piece of classical music, not just their own subset.


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## OlivierM

Well Boccherini's string quintets ?


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## Ukko

OlivierM said:


> Nothing here that Boccherini hasn't done far better, in my opinion.


Excellent. The IMO-BG (I'm assuming the BG in your post) lays it out there. Because it _is_ an opinion, it's value per se is no better than your rep in the TC forums; I hope you will elucidate. Personally, IMO, Boccherini's quintets are very good examples of the Italian late-Classical approach to the genre - which really wasn't Classical. They aren't as depths-plumbing as Mozart's, but that was clearly not Boccherini's intention for them.


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## tdc

When I think of Mozart's String Quintets I don't really consider them a group. There is the k 516 in G minor, and then there is the rest. I do think they are all good works, but the k516 is exceptional. Nothing average about that work.

@OlivierM do you have a particular favorite Boccherini String Quintet, or do you like all of them exactly the same?


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## trazom

It's amazing that four quintets could be so brilliant on nearly every technical level and still manage to escape people for lack of drama or sufficient melodic hooks. Actually, it's not that difficult to fathom given some of the other stuff posted here over the years; but still..what a waste.


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## ProudSquire

The Mozart quintets are far from average and are considered by many (Including myself) to be the pinnacle of string quintet writing. They are extraordinary works, perhaps only *Schubert's* supreme quintet in C major D. 956, which was inspired by Mozart's C Major Quintet K. 515, can truly rival what Mozart has accomplished in the genre.

Of the four mature quintets that Mozart wrote, the C major quintet was quite unique for its time; it is the largest "sonata-allegro" movement before Beethoven, taking about 15 minutes to perform. The C major quintet is richer and darker than most works in C major, and among the most expressive of his later works. Of course, it was paired with the emotional charged quintet in G minor K. 516. When referring to the third movement labeled "Adagio ma non troppo," *Pyotr Ilyich Tchaikovsky* said of this movement: "No one has ever known as well how to interpret so exquisitely in music the sense of resigned and inconsolable sorrow." The last quintets K. 593 and K. 614, which Mozart composed in the last year of his young life, are exemplary works and are often referred to as "The Tow wonders of Chamber music."

Many anecdotes can be furnished to further advance just how great these Quintets are, but ultimately it's nothing more than a personal exercise. Besides, the outward simplicity of most of Mozart's mature works severely belies the weight of the emotional currents that run beneath the sunny surface, which sadly, always goes unnoticed. 

I'm not sure which recordings you've surveyed so far, but of the many that are up on YouTube, there was one channel that had Mozart's 4 mature Quintets (K. 515, K. 516, K. 593, K.614) that were recorded by the Salomon Quartet, but sadly that channel has been shut-down due to multiple third-party claims of copyright infringement regarding material that the user posted. That's how I've come to love and appreciate the quintets for what they are, and it was all thanks to the Salomon Quartet's rendering of these extraordinary works. I highly recommend this set. I'll include a link below where you can sample the recording and purchase a copy if you feel so inclined.

http://www.hyperion-records.co.uk/dc.asp?dc=D_CDD22005

-TPS


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## hpowders

Yes. They are Mozart at his very best. The D Major, C Major and G minor are terrific quintets.


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## worov

Try this recording :


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## Mandryka

TheProudSquire said:


> The Mozart quintets are far from average and are considered by many (Including myself) to be the pinnacle of string quintet writing. They are extraordinary works, perhaps only *Schubert's* supreme quintet in C major D. 956, which was inspired by Mozart's C Major Quintet K. 515, can truly rival what Mozart has accomplished in the genre.
> 
> Of the four mature quintets that Mozart wrote, the C major quintet was quite unique for its time; it is the largest "sonata-allegro" movement before Beethoven, taking about 15 minutes to perform. The C major quintet is richer and darker than most works in C major, and among the most expressive of his later works. Of course, it was paired with the emotional charged quintet in G minor K. 516. When referring to the third movement labeled "Adagio ma non troppo," *Pyotr Ilyich Tchaikovsky* said of this movement: "No one has ever known as well how to interpret so exquisitely in music the sense of resigned and inconsolable sorrow." The last quintets K. 593 and K. 614, which Mozart composed in the last year of his young life, are exemplary works and are often referred to as "The Tow wonders of Chamber music."
> 
> Many anecdotes can be furnished to further advance just how great these Quintets are, but ultimately it's nothing more than a personal exercise. Besides, the outward simplicity of most of Mozart's mature works severely belies the weight of the emotional currents that run beneath the sunny surface, which sadly, always goes unnoticed.
> 
> I'm not sure which recordings you've surveyed so far, but of the many that are up on YouTube, there was one channel that had Mozart's 4 mature Quintets (K. 515, K. 516, K. 593, K.614) that were recorded by the Salomon Quartet, but sadly that channel has been shut-down due to multiple third-party claims of copyright infringement regarding material that the user posted. That's how I've come to love and appreciate the quintets for what they are, and it was all thanks to the Salomon Quartet's rendering of these extraordinary works. I highly recommend this set. I'll include a link below where you can sample the recording and purchase a copy if you feel so inclined.
> 
> http://www.hyperion-records.co.uk/dc.asp?dc=D_CDD22005
> 
> -TPS


I only know the Salomon quartet through their characterful Haydn op 20, and so I was keen to follow through your recommendation. My initial impression is that the quintets are equally characterful. I think the Salomon quartet have a good take on how to play classical style - without lapsing into mawkishness.


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## OlivierM

double post, please delete


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## OlivierM

Ukko said:


> Excellent. The IMO-BG (I'm assuming the BG in your post) lays it out there. Because it _is_ an opinion, it's value per se is no better than your rep in the TC forums; I hope you will elucidate. Personally, IMO, Boccherini's quintets are very good examples of the Italian late-Classical approach to the genre - which really wasn't Classical. They aren't as depths-plumbing as Mozart's, but that was clearly not Boccherini's intention for them.


Oh I was just answering the "Are Mozart's String quintets really that good?" in a subjective way - hence the "in my opinion" - like everybody else on this thread, and certainly not prentending to appear as an expert. The fact is, as my main focus is chamber music, Mozart is at the very bottom on my list. I agree I could have said it like that, but one doesn't always have time to describe the inherent huge depth of sorrow of a piece, or the gazillion of other personal interpretations they'll find when listening to something.

I strongly prefer Onslow to Mozart when it comes to trios, Haydn, Schubert and Beethoven to Mozart when it comes to string quartets, Schubert or Boccherini, when it comes to string quintets. And regarding piano sonatas, they are too many to mention, so I'll abstain.

Even if my "rep" was rocketing through TC's roof, I wouldn't be counting on it to make my opinion any better than anyone else's. So let's not enter the implying game, that's a bit perfid.

Yes, *for me*, Mozart is a minor - yet prolific and worshipped by many - composer, and apart from a few pieces (I like the glass harmonica work, mind you), I won't waste any more time listening to his works. That's my opinion, I'm not trying to push it down anyone else's throat. Sorry if it is a big deal or if I offended anyone.

@tdc : If you have the chance, lend an ear to four cds : two were made by the Petersen Quartett, and two by the Vanbrugh Quartett. Pure bliss.


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## GKC

Yes; at least K515 and 516 are; great in fact.

I recommend:









and


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## clavichorder

Well, OlivierM, I respect your opinion, but I have to say it is a very uncommon one.


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## PeterF

Though the Schubert String Quintet gets my No.1 rating, the last 4 Mozart String Quintets are in 2nd place.
I also like the string quintets of Brahms, Mendelssohn, Dvorak, and Boccherini as well as some others, but prefer the Mozart last 4 string quintets to any of them.

I can recommend the following recordings of the Mozart String Quintets
Grumiaux Trio plus Two
Guarneri Quartet plus one
Smetana Quartet plus Josef Suk


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## petter

Avey said:


> To steal from ahammel in another thread:


In my opinion, this particular movement is a gateway to Beethovens op.59.


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## Lisztian

trazom said:


> It's amazing that four quintets could be so brilliant on nearly every technical level and still manage to escape people for lack of drama or sufficient melodic hooks. Actually, it's not that difficult to fathom given some of the other stuff posted here over the years; but still..what a waste.


That's the thing though: who cares if something is brilliant technically if it doesn't sound good or express something, no matter how nebulous, to someone?

I'm not talking about these works, as i'm not familiar with them.


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## Mandryka

trazom said:


> It's amazing that four quintets could be so brilliant on nearly every technical level and still manage to escape people for lack of drama or sufficient melodic hooks. Actually, it's not that difficult to fathom given some of the other stuff posted here over the years; but still..what a waste.


You're assuming the issues are to do with lack of drama or melodic hooks. I think that's unlikely in the quintets in fact, which are very accessible.


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## trazom

Lisztian said:


> That's the thing though: who cares if something is brilliant technically if it doesn't sound good or express something, no matter how nebulous, to someone?


That's the other thing, though: A good portion of great works in the general repertoire do have a certain amount of technical brilliance that makes them stand out. I believe they do 'express something' unique otherwise Rosen and Tchaikovsky and every other musician who enjoys them wouldn't have anything to say about them; and for whatever reason, what they do express goes unheard or is simply of little value to some of those listening(hence, the wasted message). Unless, of course, it's one giant musical conspiracy aimed at forcing these expressionless quintets on the poor general public for nothing more than torturing them.



Mandryka said:


> You're assuming the issues are to do with lack of drama or melodic hooks. I think that's unlikely in the quintets in fact, which are very accessible.


I didn't mean to say those aren't in the works themselves, maybe I should've said _perceived_ lack of drama and melodic hooks? I have seen comments from people complaining about the quintets for those reasons, though.


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## Mandryka

Two things came out of this discussion for me. One was the discovery of the Salomon Quartet's recordings: modest, very natural sounding, they move the music forward without any sense of pressure, the voicing reveals more interesting polyphony than I'd noticed before, understated expressively but far from dull. 

The other was the Boccherini quintets. I've dipped into some of them randomly, but so far with no great pleasure. Maybe someone could suggest a good one, or a good performance of one.


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## clavichorder

Mandryka said:


> Two things came out of this discussion for me. One was the discovery of the Salomon Quartet's recordings: modest, very natural sounding, they move the music forward without any sense of pressure, the voicing reveals more interesting polyphony than I'd noticed before, understated expressively but far from dull.
> 
> The other was the Boccherini quintets. I've dipped into some of them randomly, but so far with no great pleasure. Maybe someone could suggest a good one, or a good performance of one.


That about sums it up for me too. Except I've found something to like in the Boccherini quintets. He was a bit over prolific, perhaps, so it could be a chore sorting through his works. But this work in C major came up high in the youtube searches, and I really liked the slow movement on the first listen, so I listened a few more times and decided that it had some interesting oddities. Not structurally coherent like Mozart, but this is Boccherini, so a different set of expectations and a differently attuned ear is required to enjoy.


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## Lisztian

trazom said:


> That's the other thing, though: A good portion of great works in the general repertoire do have a certain amount of technical brilliance that makes them stand out. I believe they do 'express something' unique otherwise Rosen and Tchaikovsky and every other musician who enjoys them wouldn't have anything to say about them; and for whatever reason, what they do express goes unheard or is simply of little value to some of those listening(hence, the wasted message). Unless, of course, it's one giant musical conspiracy aimed at forcing these expressionless quintets on the poor general public for nothing more than torturing them.


You are right, now that you have clarified: thanks for the post.


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## Albert7

If anyone has to ask whether Mozart is any good LOL...

just kidding... his quintets are wonderful of course. You can't go wrong.


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## hpowders

Mozart's String Quintets in C and g are better than good. Sublime chamber music.


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## Vaneyes

I like K. 593 and K. 614 very much. Lukewarm on the others.:tiphat:


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## Larkenfield

Perotin said:


> Charles Rosen wrote that "by general consent, Mozart's greatest achievement in chamber music is the group of string quintets with two violas." I've listened to all 6 of them recently, and I must say, I was disappointed a bit, I expected more. What you like (or dislike) about Mozart's string quintets? Help me find appreciation for them!


Listen to different groups performing them. Qualities of performance can greatly vary. People supposedly want to understand or appreciate something that may have been highly praised for over 200 years and yet will assume that it's the composer's fault if they aren't immediately impressed. It helps to be proactive and not be put off by first impressions, even if ultimately one never takes to these amazing Mozart string quartets. No composer is universally liked, and this includes the immortal Bach and Beethoven, and countless others. Some listeners simply don't seem to have the genetic DNA to appreciate everyone, and there's no blame in this.


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## hpowders

Yes! The C Major and G minor String Quintets by Mozart are that good! Some of the greatest chamber music ever composed.


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## Pugg

Vaneyes said:


> I like K. 593 and K. 614 very much. Lukewarm on the others.:tiphat:


We do miss you dear MR. Vaneyes.


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## fluteman

hpowders said:


> Yes! The C Major and G minor String Quintets by Mozart are that good! Some of the greatest chamber music ever composed.


Yes. Right up there with Beethoven's Op. 131, 132 and 135, and Schubert's C Major cello quintet. Truly profound achievements and highlights of Western culture that no doubt had a significant influence on both Beethoven and Schubert. All of which does not mean that they have to be everyone's favorites.


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## PlaySalieri

Larkenfield said:


> Listen to different groups performing them. Qualities of performance can greatly vary. People supposedly want to understand or appreciate something that may have been highly praised for over 200 years and yet will assume that it's the composer's fault if they aren't immediately impressed. It helps to be proactive and not be put off by first impressions, even if ultimately one never takes to these amazing Mozart string quartets. No composer is universally liked, and this includes the immortal Bach and Beethoven, and countless others. Some listeners simply don't seem to have the genetic DNA to appreciate everyone, and there's no blame in this.


I think he should discard the first 2 for now and focus on k515 and k516.
If you have any doubts go direct to the 3rd mvt of K516 and tell yourself this is uninspired music - try to say that with conviction. If you can say it with conviction. Put down Mozart and never return.


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## hpowders

I enjoy the Mozart String Quintets so much more than his String Quartets. Not a matter of the sound due to the extra instrument. Mozart seemed to be more inspired by the string quintet form, IMO.


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## fluteman

Larkenfield said:


> Listen to different groups performing them. Qualities of performance can greatly vary. People supposedly want to understand or appreciate something that may have been highly praised for over 200 years and yet will assume that it's the composer's fault if they aren't immediately impressed. It helps to be proactive and not be put off by first impressions, even if ultimately one never takes to these amazing Mozart string quartets. No composer is universally liked, and this includes the immortal Bach and Beethoven, and countless others. Some listeners simply don't seem to have the genetic DNA to appreciate everyone, and there's no blame in this.


Yes, all very much true, and in particular, Mozart's chamber music is deceptively difficult to play, and only the very best performers can do it justice. I recently met and played with a young man just starting out on a career as a pianist, with a spectacular, powerhouse technique. He also played a recording for us of his college senior recital, the Tchaikovsky 1st concerto. Amazingly fleet fingers, but he still has a way to go when it comes to sensitivity, phrasing and lyricism, all musts for experienced listeners even of that piece, though no doubt he sounded spectacular to casual listeners. His current approach would be an utter failure for a Mozart piano concerto, much less Mozart chamber music.

For the same reasons, a student or amateur string quartet, even a good one, can sound quite convincing in a Haydn quartet yet not as successful in one of Mozart's greatest, the six dedicated to Haydn, for example. Some may conclude they prefer Tchaikovsky and Haydn to Mozart, but I agree with you that careful listening to the very best performances of Mozart will yield dividends. Ed.: All of this is entirely just my humble opinion, of course. But I think this is the reason for some of the less than enthusiastic reviews of Mozart's music for those newer to classical music.


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## Kieran

hpowders said:


> I enjoy the Mozart String Quintets so much more than his String Quartets. Not a matter of the sound due to the extra instrument. Mozart seemed to be more inspired by the string quintet form, IMO.


And the string trio, a lone giant in that form, but one I prefer to listen to more than his great quartets...


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## trazom

Kieran said:


> And the string trio, a lone giant in that form, but one I prefer to listen to more than his great quartets...


I think the consensus is Mozart felt more at ease in the quintet because of the opportunities for experimentation with different textures, but I don't think he was necessarily less 'inspired' in the last 10 quartets. The David Cairns book we talked about, he mentions that Mozart lavished more time and attention on his last 3 quartets than was previously supposed. The middle Prussian quartet, the slow movemtn especially, strike me as some of the most inspired chamber music he ever wrote.


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## Kieran

trazom said:


> I think the consensus is Mozart felt more at ease in the quintet because of the opportunities for experimentation with different textures, but I don't think he was necessarily less 'inspired' in the last 10 quartets. The David Cairns book we talked about, *he mentions that Mozart lavished more time and attention on his last 3 quartets than was previously supposed.* The middle Prussian quartet, the slow movemtn especially, strike me as some of the most inspired chamber music he ever wrote.


That's true, and it maybe that these three get a bad rap because he abandoned the final three he was to have composed, due to not being paid, or something, leaving the finished three look like the dregs of a barrel of inspiration run dry, and also, the cello lines were written for the Prussian king, undermining their quality, somewhat. But from my own perspective, I find them to be of similar quality to the Haydn quartets...


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## fluteman

Kieran said:


> And the string trio, a lone giant in that form, but one I prefer to listen to more than his great quartets...


AKA the E-flat Divertimento, K. 563. Yet another amazing masterpiece, and one of my all-time favorites. It's almost hard to believe that one composer wrote all that great music in such a short lifetime. I recently listened to all of the piano sonatas, and I was struck by the fact that, although the first three or four were perhaps a little less instantly recognizable, though still great, all of the rest, without exception, are famous and essential cornerstones of western music. Then there are the piano quartets, the clarinet quintet, etc., etc.


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## PlaySalieri

I dont hear any disparity in quality between the quartets and last 4 quintets. Mozart composed fewer quintets - two of those the last 4 happen to be near the best works he ever composed - the other two are nearly as good. Of the 10 last quartets I think the best 2 or 3 are near k515 and k516. K421 for example, k428 and k458.

the first 2 quintets - 1 is early and nobody ever mentions - the other is a re-arrangement of a wind serenade. So really he composed 4 top level quintets.


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## hpowders

The Mozart String Quintet in G minor is simply the greatest string quintet ever written. Too bad Bach didn’t attempt the form. THAT could have been something!


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## eternum1968

They aren't much interesting, for me


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## juliante

I have returned to these pieces many times over the years in the hope the reason they are so loved would hit me. But they remain pleasant but unremarkable teatime pieces to me. One day I may see the light, it’s happened often with other pieces.


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## Guest

I don't know about "general consent" but they are among my favorite Mozart. I have admitted to myself that the set of six Haydn Quartets don't work so well for me, but the three final quartets and the string quintets are the best of Mozart. The slow movement of the D major quintet (bitter harmonies that almost sound atonal at times) and the finale of the E-flat quintet (such contrapuntal writing) stand out in my mind. I've not heard the Grumaiux Trio+2 recordings surpassed.


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## kyjo

Yes, they are! The G minor, especially, is a really poignant work and one of Mozart's best. Just listen to the darkness and agony of the slow introduction to the fourth movement!


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## lachlan1415

I think they're above average in classical music but not my taste


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## Samehada

The string quintets are interesting. They are not commonly mentioned, yet I've seen them referred to as the zenith of Mozart's output along with the operas and piano concertos. Personally I have only listened to them once, which is not enough but I have found stuff that I liked. They exhibit greater counterpoint and drama than many of his works, so I have a good feeling that I will end up enjoying them greatly.


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## NightHawk

Thank you, *transom*, for your succinct and very satisfying post.


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## NightHawk

I agree, *Baron Scarpia*, possibly excepting the string quartets K. 387 in G major and K. 481 in D minor, I prefer the last three quintets to the other 'Haydn Quartets'.


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## Pjotr

stomanek said:


> I think he should discard the first 2 for now and focus on k515 and k516.
> If you have any doubts go direct to the 3rd mvt of K516 and tell yourself this is uninspired music - try to say that with conviction. If you can say it with conviction. Put down Mozart and never return.


The K516 is Mozart at his very very best. It's accessible and inexhaustible. You forgot to say though, that after listening to the 3rd movement, one should continue listening to the amazing 4th movement and, in the mean time, wonder what the first movements sound like


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## wormcycle

I think that Mozart may be one of the most underappreciated composers, his chamber music in particular. It may sound silly taking into account how popular his music is. But it is also deceiving. I needed years and going, many times, through the entire Beethoven, Schubert, Brahms catalogue to finally comeback to Mozart with increasing level of fascination.
I think Mozart's "problem" is that his music has many layers and the surface is so songful, simple and almost inevitable that there is no suspense in it, most people consider it nice but do not focus on it.
Well, they should, there are many layers in Mozart music.
For example, the development section in the first part f K. 515 is dense and exciting with a lot of brilliant melodic lines and digressions, but at the same time it progresses with logic and consistency. Problem is it requires a lot of focus and unwavering attention.
I am fascinated by the last four quintets but my favorite Mozart is the Emerson recording of the six quartets dedicated to Haydn.


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## hammeredklavier

(Van Kuijk Quartet & Adrien La Marca)



wormcycle said:


> For example, the development section in the first part f K. 515 is dense and exciting with a lot of brilliant melodic lines and digressions, but at the same time it progresses with logic and consistency.


Indeed; chromatic part-writing that builds on the Salzburg Haydn's MH287 in expression.


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## 89Koechel

wormcycle - Excellent analysis! ... and YES, it CAN take many hearings, re-hearings, re-listenings, etc. to get to the ROOT underneath the genius (Mozart, Beethoven, Schubert, et. al.). It was so-NECESSARY in the past, wasn't it, to have a songful, appealing surface and/or melody, on top ... or even in the developmental sections? Maybe that's why certain parts of 20th Century compositions - of Elliott Carter, or the Viennese fellows (Schoenberg, Berg, and especially, Webern) and others don't really HOLD the attentions of many listeners, anymore. ... Anyway, thanks for the recommendation of the Emerson Quartet, in those Mozart/"Haydn" Quartets! I have an old LP set, with the Bartok Quartet - equally fine, I'm sure. Thanks!


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## Merl

They took me a long, long time to appreciate as, at first, they seem, on a surface level, to be so simplistic but when you listen again (especially to the more engaging recordings) they have much so much depth. I'd say that's probably true for a lot of the Mozart I listened to once but coming back to him can be highly refreshing. Its taken me far too long to realise that. Oh, and I love the Boccherini quintets too (in response to an older post) and think they are masterpieces.


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## Kreisler jr

wormcycle said:


> I think that Mozart may be one of the most underappreciated composers, his chamber music in particular. It may sound silly taking into account how popular his music is.


It does in fact sound silly. There are uncountable performances and recordings of Mozart, including the famous chamber works like the quintets and libraries of literature of analysis and praise, both on academic and popular level.

I could agree that the two earlier and the last two quintets are slightly underappreciated compared with the middle ones, the clarinet quintet or some named quartets (and for practical reasons there will always be more performances/recordings of quartets), but the g minor quintet is almost certainly the second most performed/recorded string quintet (after the Schubert). It's not easy to see how this piece (and some other Mozart chamber pieces) could realistically be more popular and appreciated than they already are.

Such remarks like from Rosen are to be taken as exaggerations because the quintets do not stand out hugely compared to e.g. the quartets dedicated to Haydn and differences are rather subtle, especially 230 years later for people used to the often stronger contrasts and even more expansive romantic chamber music. This might lead to wrong expectations.

[edit: The answer to the thread title question is nevertheless Yes, at least for quintets 3-6; the early one is very good but not that extraordinary compared to pieces from roughly the same time like the piano concerto K 175 or g minor symphony 183. The c minor is better in its original version as wind octet.]


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## Mandryka

hammeredklavier said:


> (Van Kuijk Quartet & Adrien La Marca)
> 
> Indeed; chromatic part-writing that builds on the Salzburg Haydn's MH287 in expression.


You should have said "builds on stupendously, hugely, tremendously, staggeringly, exceedingly, monumentally, fantastically . . . . "


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## 4chamberedklavier

I like them all, even the first two. I especially like the menuetto portions.

Not entirely sure why, but I'd rate his Haydn quartets above the quintets though.


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## justekaia

*mozart quintets*

K 515 and 516 are summits of chamber music together with divertimentos K 334 and 363; my preferences go to alban berg qt for the quintets, but i also like takacs qt and auryn qt; all these pieces are deeply moving and do not suffer from the superficiality that is sometimes apparent in other works by amadeus; they are lifetime companions


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## hammeredklavier

K.515c


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## hammeredklavier

(Fine Arts Quartet & Jean Dupouy)


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## Terrapin

Perotin said:


> Charles Rosen wrote that "by general consent, Mozart's greatest achievement in chamber music is the group of string quintets with two violas." I've listened to all 6 of them recently, and I must say, I was disappointed a bit, I expected more. What you like (or dislike) about Mozart's string quintets? Help me find appreciation for them!


I don't agree with Rosen. Mozart's greatest achievement in chamber music is his last ten string quartets, which I find much more rewarding than the quintets. Having said that, I do like his quintets (particularly K 516 and 593) but would rank them behind Schubert, the pair by Brahms, Dvorak's Op 77 and 97, Beethoven Op 29, and Bruckner.


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## starthrower

What is the movement that Woodduck referred to as the most astonishing in all music? The YT link has disappeared. His post is on the first page.


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## trazom

starthrower said:


> What is the movement that Woodduck referred to as the most astonishing in all music? The YT link has disappeared. His post is on the first page.


I believe it was the second movement of the D major string quintet k.593.


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## GMB

K515&516 are two of Mozart's greatest works. I don't think the other four are as good, although there are good individual movements in them.
With Mozart there is always perfection of form, but the content is variable, and more or less memorable.
I have personal favourites in all forms, from piano sonatas to symphonies and choral works, but I find him very variable. 
You need to listen to an awful lot of Mozart to find your own personal favourites. However, that is a labour of love!


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## hammeredklavier

performed at relaxed tempos with warm string tone, no exposition repeats


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## Gallus

I think they're the greatest chamber works ever composed.


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