# Is it ethical to return a cd to the shop because it's crap?



## Kieran (Aug 24, 2010)

I mean, buyer beware, right?

I bought Scott Walkers Bish Bosch.

One word: Tosh...


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## Vaneyes (May 11, 2010)

Certainly, it's ethical. I've found the real question is, *Will a shop honor such return?* Some shops are more lenient than others in this regard. There are a wide range of policies, including, *No opened returns or exchanges!* *For opened returns, only exchange for other product! Full refund for opened or unopened returns!

*The only luck (two times w. classical music CDs) I've had with recordings that I thought stunk to high heaven (the retailers said, NO!), was when I communicated with the recordings labels via email and phone. They allowed me to choose other CDs, and I didn't have to return the stinkers. That's good public relations.


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

Maybe snap the cover first.......


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## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

Kieran, did you like Scott Walker's previous two albums, Tilt and The Drift? If so, I'm surprised you dislike this one.


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## Kieran (Aug 24, 2010)

elgars ghost said:


> Kieran, did you like Scott Walker's previous two albums, Tilt and The Drift? If so, I'm surprised you dislike this one.


I never heard them, I only got it based on a voucher for HMV for Christmas, and a plethora of favourable reviews from a variety of sources. I suppose I'm a victim of my own expectations: I was expecting a cross between Weimar Republic torch ballads and Radiohead. Don't ask me why.

I'll give it another spin tomorrow. I know, my reaction above was a bit harsh, maybe. The music is fine, but his voice is anachronistic. But this one could take some getting used to, and I still have a few Mahler and Bruckner's ahead of him in the line...


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## Guest (Jan 7, 2013)

That is why iTunes exists. Before I will buy an actual album, I will first see if it is on iTunes to sample. If it is not, then I need numerous positive reviews to convince me. Of course, there are exceptions. Certain works I will buy up any recording I can, regardless of reviews or ability to sample (Mahler's 2nd symphony is one of those - perhaps the one work I have the most recordings of).


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## Kieran (Aug 24, 2010)

I have to say, I get this and I don't, at the same time. I understand why Classical music fans have multiple recordings of the same music, and yet for me I get one I like and stick to it.

Having said that, I do have a few double and even a triple version of some music, because of the way they put CD's and records together, placing several of a composers works on one disc. I might buy another disc for a single work on it, but have the rest of the disc in another version elsewhere. It's a fascinating world of micro-shifts (sometimes) and seismic differences (on other occasions)...


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

An interesting question. It's not really about ethics but social norms, if there's a difference. We don't usually demand our money back after watching a movie we didn't enjoy as much as we had hoped, and maybe there's some kind of parallel there.

But times change. I know plenty of people who will return expensive cameras after a week or two, just because some newer model caught their eye. Retailers swallow the loss -- well, ultimately its you and me of course. Some years back that would have been considered very poor behavior, even though the sellers might still have made the refund. Now it seems accepted...


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## Vaneyes (May 11, 2010)

KenOC said:


> An interesting question. It's not really about ethics but social norms, if there's a difference. We don't usually demand our money back after watching a movie we didn't enjoy as much as we had hoped, and maybe there's some kind of parallel there.
> 
> But times change. I know plenty of people who will return expensive cameras after a week or two, just because some newer model caught their eye. Retailers swallow the loss -- well, ultimately its you and me of course. Some years back that would have been considered very poor behavior, even though the sellers might still have made the refund. Now it seems accepted...


Re stinky movies, theater policy is probably something worth checking. Years ago, after I complained to the manager 30 minutes into, I was given a voucher for a movie of my choice within a certain time period.

Unrelated: Mickey D's failed to serve me within 5 minutes, so I got the order free.

Consumers may also be protected by laws in certain cases and locales. Under threat of, and bad publicity, many retailers have instilled more friendly policies.

Like in golf, it's good to, *Know the rules before you play*. :tiphat:


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

Ethical? No. Unless the person who sold it to you, knows your taste and recommended it.


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## lostid (Aug 13, 2012)

I wouldn't buy an album without listening or knowing what it is. I don't do trial and error buying and it's not fair to the seller (by returning) if the CD is opened with nothing wrong. I think all stores selling CD's should allow the potential buyers to sample the tracks.

But if the recording quality is an issue then that may be a different story.


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## Head_case (Feb 5, 2010)

I've never heard of him. So I glanced up his name on google and checked out his website. 

His drum beats are synthetic and his voice croons. My goodness. 

When thinking about ethics and consumerism, strangely, I'm inclined to think that the ethical responsibility ...lies with the buyer. 

That is...as a buyer, I have to take responsibility for my consumer choices. 
These are not great choices: they are choices which fall into the bourgeois category of style, which is not even an ethics of aesthetics. 

Aesthetics is that branch of ethics, applied to the fine arts, but with such zhit like Scott Walkers, there's no illusion here :lol:


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## regressivetransphobe (May 16, 2011)

It's a music store, not some reliable arbiter of taste. It's the artist who's unethical for making bad music.


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## clavichorder (May 2, 2011)

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> Maybe snap the cover first.......


That is less ethical but might work if you are into that sort of thing.

Its probably not un ethical, but more stores wouldn't take it back I don't think. Man, I haven't been to a CD store in a while. I hope the one I used to go to is still in business.... maybe on those grounds, its kind of not so helpful since CD stores don't do as well these days.


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## joen_cph (Jan 17, 2010)

I think I have exchanged a bought, heard CD one single time, as an exception, when cash was also running out and I had a list of interesting items to be bought ... My personal instinct would say that if going to exchange it, this would have to be a place where I am a very regular customer, and suggest that I also buy something of higher value, to deliver some extra profit to the shop at least. It is doubtful that they are making much money (the netto profit of one CD unit could be about 1 or 2 $, so there´s a lot of work and worries involved in such business at most places).


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

regressivetransphobe said:


> It's a music store, not some reliable arbiter of taste. It's the artist who's unethical for making bad music.


That's not much of an argument. It was easier in the days of LPs. You could use the excuse that the record was warped, or overly noisy. In in many cases, you wouldn't be lying.


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## Head_case (Feb 5, 2010)

starthrower said:


> That's not much of an argument. It was easier in the days of LPs. You could use the excuse that the record was warped, or overly noisy. In in many cases, you wouldn't be lying.


There was a quality in music media and the honour between listener and small indie music shop retailer.

Have you ever tried to get a refund on a MP3?


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

I was referring to the second half of the statement. How can you accuse someone of being unethical based on taste?

As far as MP3s are concerned, I've never purchased one.


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## Guest (Jan 8, 2013)

If you are up front and honest for your reason to return the CD, and the store allows you to, I don't believe it is unethical. However, if you are deceptive in your reasoning, it would be. If it is simply a matter of you not liking the recording, then really you are punishing the store owner, who has zero control over the quality of the recording, only over the condition it is in when he/she sells it to you. To me, it reminds me of people who eat most of a meal at a restaurant, then claim it was undercooked and demand to not pay, or get another meal. 

In this age of easily accessible reviews as well as ready means for sampling most music before buying, I think it is wrong to return a CD because you simply didn't like the recording. There are numerous places that will buy used CDs - go take it there to sell it. No, you won't get all your money back, but there is a cost for opening it up and determining whether you like it. Once it is opened, the original retailer can't sell it as a new CD. So if you return it and demand full value (whether in cash or in kind), they are losing money because of you. If they choose to allow it, that is totally up to their discretion, but should not be expected of them.


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## Guest (Jan 8, 2013)

Head_case said:


> There was a quality in music media and the honour between listener and small indie music shop retailer.
> 
> Have you ever tried to get a refund on a MP3?


I actually have received a refund on digital music, from iTunes, in fact. I bought a recording of Shostakovich's Babi Yar symphony, but the last track was missing. Since they weren't offering purchases of single tracks, they refunded me the price of the entire album and allowed me to keep it all (although I am missing the final movement). That was a different scenario, though, where the product was defective. But you can get refunds on MP3s.


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## Kieran (Aug 24, 2010)

I wonder, is there anyone here who has this album by Scott Walker and likes it?

And anyone else who actually wants it?

I think it would be wrong to try it out then return it to the shop, so I have a deeply melancholic pal who I'll give it to, it's his birthday soon, I'll rave about it and wrap it up and gift it. He actually might think it's light and cheery... :tiphat:


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

I have seen several enthusiastic reviews, so there must be people out there who can appreciate this.


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## quack (Oct 13, 2011)

I like it, but I have it. I'm sure you would be demanding it back from your friend if you keep listening to Scott, he definitely grows on people and you see he is not just a one dimensional crooner or avant-weirdo.

I don't think it is unethical at all to try and take a CD back, but I doubt it would be very successful for such a small price item, and the fact they think you might have just copied it. It depends how threatening/pathetic you look perhaps, maybe say it is a duplicate present, rather than just not liking it?


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## Guest (Jan 8, 2013)

Hmmm, I just sampled the album on iTunes. Forget the record store - contact Scott Walker directly and demand your money - and time - back.


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## Kieran (Aug 24, 2010)

I wish I'd sampled it first, too. 

Hey Quack, how would you describe it, putting a positive slant on it? By the way, every review I read rates it highly, so I'm not trying to put you on the spot. I feel like I'm looking in all the wrong places on this record...


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## Head_case (Feb 5, 2010)

DrMike said:


> I actually have received a refund on digital music, from iTunes, in fact. I bought a recording of Shostakovich's Babi Yar symphony, but the last track was missing. Since they weren't offering purchases of single tracks, they refunded me the price of the entire album and allowed me to keep it all (although I am missing the final movement). That was a different scenario, though, where the product was defective. But you can get refunds on MP3s.


It's great to hear iTunes isn't all evil! I don't use them however everyone seems to send me iTunes vouchers which I pass on to some of my younger relatives who seem to be all into it.

Getting a refund for a MP3 based on not liking the music....why do internet stores not allow this? After all, they give free samples before downloading.
....would it be that different, after?

There were a few CD clubs which used to send out CDs for listening, and if you wanted them, you kept them and paid afterwards, or returned what you didn't like. It required a membership fee, but I quite liked those. It fostered more spread in listening (and ultimately loyalty buying).


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

I think the problem is the most CD stores will not take CDs back if they are opened and have been played. I think this is not terribly ethical of them because they are saying that if you do not like the music on it or it a poor recording then you cannot return it. I know HNV used to give a voucher for return but I don't know whether they do now as most HMV stores do not stop classical discs in any quantity so I do not use them. With many other things one can actually return the goods if they are not up to standard. One problem is that music is a very subjective thing so what one person admires another person cannot stand. The only complaint that will really be accepted is if the disk itself is faulty or the recording is faulty. If a cd is actually faulty you can legally demand your money back within a reasonable time.


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## quack (Oct 13, 2011)

Well Walker is always rated highly, he is a guru of weird, so people are afraid to say they don't like it lest they seem ignorant. As elgars ghost said, his last few albums have all been experimental, this one is actually somewhat less weird, well perhaps not, they are more harrowing weird, this is more fun weird kinda.

He has a great voice and even in his crooning days you could sense the sly humour and depth he added to the songs. Now it is less crooning and more intoning weird things over strange soundscapes. Certainly not singalong tracks but fascinating and full of ideas.

It is funny how he has gone from the ultimate easy listening singer to very uneasy listening. I have heard it called just weird for the sake of weird but it doesn't seem like it is just junk thrown together, it takes skill to make weirdness which sounds good together. Clearly not for everyone but I tend to like stuff I don't understand. Get Scott Walker Sings Jacques Brel if you want something more toetapping.


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## Vaneyes (May 11, 2010)

Head_case said:


> ....There were a few CD clubs which used to send out CDs for listening, and if you wanted them, you kept them and paid afterwards, or returned what you didn't like. It required a membership fee, but I quite liked those. It fostered more spread in listening (and ultimately loyalty buying).


Each to his own.

View attachment 11675


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## Kieran (Aug 24, 2010)

quack said:


> Well Walker is always rated highly, he is a guru of weird, so people are afraid to say they don't like it lest they seem ignorant. As elgars ghost said, his last few albums have all been experimental, this one is actually somewhat less weird, well perhaps not, they are more harrowing weird, this is more fun weird kinda.
> 
> He has a great voice and even in his crooning days you could sense the sly humour and depth he added to the songs. Now it is less crooning and more intoning weird things over strange soundscapes. Certainly not singalong tracks but fascinating and full of ideas.
> 
> It is funny how he has gone from the ultimate easy listening singer to very uneasy listening. I have heard it called just weird for the sake of weird but it doesn't seem like it is just junk thrown together, it takes skill to make weirdness which sounds good together. Clearly not for everyone but I tend to like stuff I don't understand. Get Scott Walker Sings Jacques Brel if you want something more toetapping.


Thanks Quack!

I'm not really looking for 'toe-tapping,' but i know what you mean. Maybe I found it a little jarring, it certainly isn't easy to pigeon-hole and I like the fact that he's taking a flyer instead of playing safe, but the voice is actually what put me off. Reedy and at odds with the music, which sounded like I could probably come to terms with it, some day. I have a resistance to things which are "just weird for the sake of weird," which I consider to be a waste of everybody's time, but this didn't sound like that. It sounded slightly anachronistic, as I said above, but that can be fine too.

I'll give it another shot, because I have it now, and it's highly rated for a reason. It could be elitist or obscure, I don't know. But thanks for your reply!


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## Vaneyes (May 11, 2010)

starthrower said:


> That's not much of an argument. It was easier in the days of LPs. You could use the excuse that the record was warped, or overly noisy. In in many cases, you wouldn't be lying.


It never failed to amaze, how tight the LP packaging was. Then you'd remove the outer cellophane and take the LP out of its paper casing, and voila, instant warpdom.


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## Flamme (Dec 30, 2012)

Unethical...


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## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

Assuming it is unethical would it be equally so to do the same to an online giant like Amazon and their associated marketplace sellers or do people think they are more 'fair game' because of their relatively quibble-free returns policy?


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## Guest (Jan 8, 2013)

I don't think it should matter whether the retailer was a small independent brick-and-mortar, or a giant online enterprise. 

I guess the bottom line for me is that, if you are so worried about whether you won't like a recording, and don't want to keep recordings you don't like, then sample online before you purchase. Everybody on this forum clearly has access to such services. If you purchase an album, it is yours, and your responsibility. It is no more the responsibility of the retailer to ensure that you will like the purchase as it is for your grocer to guarantee that you will enjoy every new food you purchase in his establishment. His only responsibility is to sell it to you as advertised, and not sell you something defective. Outside that, it is caveat emptor.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Kieran said:


> I have to say, I get this and I don't, at the same time. I understand why Classical music fans have multiple recordings of the same music, and yet for me I get one I like and stick to it.
> 
> Having said that, I do have a few double and even a triple version of some music, because of the way they put CD's and records together, placing several of a composers works on one disc. I might buy another disc for a single work on it, but have the rest of the disc in another version elsewhere. It's a fascinating world of micro-shifts (sometimes) and seismic differences (on other occasions)...


I used to have to stick to one recording of a work out of economic necessity. However these days I do like multiple recordings of works. For me it is fascinating how great music can be interpreted many different ways.


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## Vaneyes (May 11, 2010)

joen_cph said:


> I think I have exchanged a bought, heard CD one single time, as an exception, when cash was also running out and I had a list of interesting items to be bought ... My personal instinct would say that if going to exchange it, this would have to be a place where I am a very regular customer, and suggest that I also buy something of higher value, to deliver some extra profit to the shop at least. It is doubtful that they are making much money (the netto profit of one CD unit could be about 1 or 2 $, so there´s a lot of work and worries involved in such business at most places).


Maybe their hardship is why I often found them a difficult lot to deal with when a product issue arose. Stinky recordings aside.

Even in era(s) when recording sales were flush, I recall record shops being unrelenting in their policy. It didn't matter if I was a regular. It was like gasoline pricing--all the same. *Rules are Rules. No ands, ifs, or buts.

*A time or two or more when product was damaged, they did me a favor by exchanging.

Give praise to Amazon Marketplace. :lol:


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## Vaneyes (May 11, 2010)

elgars ghost said:


> Assuming it is unethical would it be equally so to do the same to an online giant like Amazon and their associated marketplace sellers or do people think they are more 'fair game' because of their relatively quibble-free returns policy?


I can't speak for Amazon's detective services. There may be "buyer ratings", too. If a buyer tries the same gimmick a few times, flags may go up.

I think it's fair to say, that most users on both sides appreciate the seller ratings, and a fair exchange or refund policy.

There are always some takers, but for the most part, I think it's been proven that most well-treated people will reciprocate in kind. :tiphat:


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## Flamme (Dec 30, 2012)

Dudes one changes his taste in a snap of fingers thing he adored in one moment bitterly hate in other sometimes from pure subjective reasons so salesman got nothing to do with that...


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## Kevin Pearson (Aug 14, 2009)

Personally since I work in the retail industry I do think it's unethical. Why should the retailer eat the cost because of poor judgment on your part? Buying a CD is not like buying clothes and getting them home and finding out they don't fit. A retailer can put that clothing back on the shelf with no loss but a CD they cannot. Now some retailers allow 30 to 90 days return on anything no matter what but if music stores did that I think they would have a lot of folks buying CDs and making illegal copies of them and taking them back. It's not like the CD cost you a fortune! If you really hate the CD put it up for sale with a buy it now price on Ebay. You would probably get a buyer in a couple of days or a week and recover most if not all your money. Somebody out there would probably love to own that CD.

Kevin


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Returning CDs -- Would people REALLY copy them first, or are they too nice for that? Several cities in the US and Europe have set up "public use" bicycle programs, buying fleets of bicycles that anybody can hop on and ride, and then just leave them for the next person. Seems like a good idea.

Sadly, the bicycles have generally disappeared, every last one, within a very few weeks...


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## Kevin Pearson (Aug 14, 2009)

KenOC said:


> Returning CDs -- Would people REALLY copy them first, or are they too nice for that? Several cities in the US and Europe have set up "public use" bicycle programs, buying fleets of bicycles that anybody can hop on and ride, and then just leave them for the next person. Seems like a good idea.
> 
> Sadly, the bicycles have generally disappeared, every last one, within a very few weeks...


Don't you know that this is the "entitlement" generation? If we can get it for free by stealing it or milking the government for it why pay? After all you're entitled to everything without actually working for it.


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## joen_cph (Jan 17, 2010)

> Sadly, the bicycles have generally disappeared, every last one, within a very few weeks...


Not quite true, some of these bicycle systems have continued for many years, and there are various ways of advanced security etc. Check your sources, sounds like a _Fox News_ story to me.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bicycle_sharing_system


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

joen_cph said:


> Not quite true, some these bicycle systems have continued for many years, and there are various ways of advanced security etc. Check your sources, sounds like a _Fox News_ story to me.
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bicycle_sharing_system


The point was made with reference to unregulated programs, similar to no-questions-asked CD return policies. "Bicycle sharing programs without locks, user identification, and security deposits have also historically suffered large loss rates from theft and vandalism."

Many CD return policies, like regulated bike-sharing programs, have safeguards: Unbroken plastic wrapper, exchange only for the same CD, etc. The reasons are obvious.

BTW, here's an egregious example: "A resurgence in bike sharing programmes is attributed by many to the launching in 2007 of Paris's Vélib', a network of 20,000 specially designed bicycles distributed among 1450 stations throughout Paris...now considered the second largest bike-sharing system of its kind in the world. While the Vélib' program may be considered a success in terms of rider usage...a staggering 80 percent of the original 20,600 bicycles have been destroyed or stolen. Some Vélib' cycles have been found in Eastern Europe and North Africa, while others have been dumped in the Seine River, hung from lampposts, or abandoned on the roadside in various states of disrepair..."


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## davinci (Oct 11, 2012)

elgars ghost said:


> Assuming it is unethical would it be equally so to do the same to an online giant like Amazon and their associated marketplace sellers or do people think they are more 'fair game' because of their relatively quibble-free returns policy?


Amazon has recently changed it's return policy...If unhappy with cd/dvd you can get 50% back. I used to say item was misrepresented and got full refund; no more.
Full refund or exchange if damaged, full refund if unopened. No more 'quibble-free."


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## EddieRUKiddingVarese (Jan 8, 2013)

These days - at least in Oz if you try to go back to the store, you'll find it has closed down and been replaced by dowmloads!


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## LordBlackudder (Nov 13, 2010)

its not ethical because the product was fine. the customer has created the problem.

i would return it anyway.


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## Hausmusik (May 13, 2012)

KenOC said:


> Returning CDs -- Would people REALLY copy them first, or are they too nice for that? Several cities in the US and Europe have set up "public use" bicycle programs, buying fleets of bicycles that anybody can hop on and ride, and then just leave them for the next person. Seems like a good idea.
> 
> Sadly, the bicycles have generally disappeared, every last one, within a very few weeks...


I believe this is what is referred to as The Tragedy of the Commons.

As to the OP question, once, years ago, I successfully got a brick-and-mortar to take back an opened CD whose recording levels were so low I found it frequently inaudible. They were very reluctant and only did so in the end (and after a long conversation) because I was a loyal and well-known customer who had never pulled a fast one before. But it was clear to me this was a one-time deal, and I never attempted to return a CD based on my dissatisfaction with its quality again.


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## Vaneyes (May 11, 2010)

Funny, since I last posted on this thread, I had to return or get credit for three new CDs. One had a slight chip in it, one just didn't play well for the last few tracks, and one had the wrong CD! The latter is the first time that's happened.


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## Kevin Pearson (Aug 14, 2009)

Vaneyes said:


> Funny, since I last posted on this thread, I had to return or get credit for three new CDs. One had a slight chip in it, one just didn't play well for the last few tracks, and one had the wrong CD! The latter is the first time that's happened.


Yea but you returned all those for legitimate reasons. Not because you thought the CDs were crappy. I once had a purchase which had the wrong CD in it too. Strangely it happens occasionally.

Kevin


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## Kieran (Aug 24, 2010)

I still have the cd, and keep threatening to put it on again, and this has the desired effect: my wife puts on the dinner! :lol:


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## EddieRUKiddingVarese (Jan 8, 2013)

Kieran said:


> I still have the cd, and keep threatening to put it on again, and this has the desired effect: my wife puts on the dinner! :lol:


A lot to be said for WUFM


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## Schubussy (Nov 2, 2012)

I think the new Scott Walker is OK actually. Not his best though, 'Tilt' is much better.


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## Kieran (Aug 24, 2010)

Schubussy said:


> I think the new Scott Walker is OK actually. Not his best though, 'Tilt' is much better.


Thanks for that, Schubussy, I must give it a more serious spin and try 'get' it... :tiphat:


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## bbgenderless (Feb 20, 2013)

Kieran said:


> I mean, buyer beware, right?
> 
> I bought Scott Walkers Bish Bosch.
> 
> One word: Tosh...


 as far as i know you have the freedom to return a cd to the shop if you don't like it.

But as far as it being ethical well that's subjective, one might not think so where as another might and so on and so forth.


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