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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

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## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

I can imagine hearing very loosely "inspired by Beethoven" works or tributes turning into utter abominations, that promote their own individual views over Beethoven's, so I agree with you on this. I found the Golijov 250th anniversary tribute of Bach's death quite far removed from anything Bach stood for. Where's the counterpoint?


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## Nereffid (Feb 6, 2013)

hammeredklavier said:


> The question I want to ask: do we need any "new classical music" anyway? ... If contemporary classical composers actually wanted audiences for their music, - instead of complaining about their own lack of popularity, they should actually compose in a way that it would attract audiences; compose in such a way that people would actually want to hear in concert. ... I honestly don't care for today's contemporary classical music and its composers. I don't care if they all stopped composing due to lack of public demand for their music. In fact, I kind of wish they did.


Except today's composers _do _compose music that people actually want to hear in concert. The thing you're conveniently ignoring is that THOSE PEOPLE AREN'T YOU.


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## Johnnie Burgess (Aug 30, 2015)

Nereffid said:


> Except today's composers _do _compose music that people actually want to hear in concert. The thing you're conveniently ignoring is that THOSE PEOPLE AREN'T YOU.


But are they composing music that only a minority of classical music listeners want to hear or a majority? If only for a minority group of listeners how can that support an orchestra?


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

^ Umm. It's happening. But you are misled by lumping together all classical music listeners as a block. Of course, orchestras are under economic pressure. Few, I guess, can afford to avoid any aspect of the diverse possibilities _and audiences_ that are out there for them.


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## larold (Jul 20, 2017)

Why not ban blue suits, skirts, slogan t-shirts and tennis shoes for a year while you're at it?

So everyone can learn the great new styles invented in 2020 in attire and footwear.

Because it's a dumb *** idea that would only be put forward by someone threatened by others' successes.

The artist who aspires to greatness has the duty to create art competitive with the greatest ever created, not to be threatened by it.


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## amfortas (Jun 15, 2011)

Is there any kind of anniversary coming up for threads like this? If so, I have a suggestion . . .


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

At least Beethoven's birthday brings us performances of his music. Wagner's birthday brings us more critics asking whether we should feel guilty about performing him.


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## Forsooth (Apr 17, 2018)

> I find these people too annoyingly whiny to be honest. The question I want to ask: do we need any "new classical music" anyway? I think the Golden Age of classical music composition ended long ago. Far too much good music had been written just in the common practice period alone it'll take more than a lifetime to explore it all. Much of today's contemporary classical music sounds like "glorified" film music to me. (Much of it is only good as background music for stuff like horror films and whatnot, being passed off as "classical music". I think there's an exaggeration about how much "depth" there is and about how most people don't "understand" it, - but this is a topic for another day).


THIS!! At the very least, I'd like to get the federal government out of it. I'd flush the National Endowment for the Arts in a heartbeat.


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## Forsooth (Apr 17, 2018)

This is the online bio of the author of the article, Andrea Moore. I'm not surprised in the least.

Andrea Moore
Assistant Professor of Music

Ph.D., University of California, Los Angeles
M.A., University of Southern California
B. Music, Rice University

Biography

Andrea Moore is a musicologist specializing in new classical music and concert culture since 1989. She earned her doctorate in musicology at the University of California, Los Angeles in 2016 and was a Chancellor’s Postdoctoral Fellow at the University of California, Riverside in 2016–17. 

She is at work on two projects. The first examines the politics of identity and representation in new classical music of the post-Cold War period, and argues that musical multiculturalism was crucial to the concept of musical progress in the 1990s. 

Her second project, “Musical Capital in the Twenty-First Century,” examines the structures of musical life under late capitalism and focuses on musical entrepreneurship, multicultural neoliberalism and the rise of the discourse and labor of "curation."

Other research and teaching interests include the sociology of music, music as memorial, Bach culture and ’80s pop/MTV. 

Before starting in academia, Moore worked in the arts for many years as both a performer (percussionist) and administrator. 

She is co-founder of the “Musicology and the Present” conference series and is an editor for the American Musicological Society’s blog, Musicology Now.


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## MatthewWeflen (Jan 24, 2019)

Eh. I'm not offended.

New music is vital. What if Schumann and Brahms and so on had all said "Woah. No way we can follow that."

On the other hand, ditching Beethoven for a year would take a big bite out of orchestral revenues, and it would run the risk of letting a year go by without winning new converts. Beethoven is a universe, and it sucks people in with the force of gravity.

Clickbait is clickbait.


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## Roger Knox (Jul 19, 2017)

Banning music is extreme. I compose music. If "we" (who are "we?") ban Beethoven, we can ban anyone. I hope that Andrea Moore will withdraw her remark.


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## Forsooth (Apr 17, 2018)

MatthewWeflen said:


> Eh. I'm not offended.
> 
> New music is vital. What if Schumann and Brahms and so on had all said "Woah. No way we can follow that."
> 
> ...


Well, but their advocates (audiences) supported and sought out their work as it was being written. Schumann and Brahms were "tethered" to what had been embraced previously.

In the era of Brahms, there were a few composers who wrote some quite off-the-beaten-path compositions. What were their names? I don't know because nobody has ever heard of them.


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## Huilunsoittaja (Apr 6, 2010)

The article is extreme, and the OT's response is extreme. Do we find that extreme opinions are the majority of folks? I bet a lot of people don't mind hearing someone else other than Beethoven, just as they would like hearing something tried and true. But to have an agenda of NO Beethoven or ONLY Beethoven is kinda strange. I think both answers will result in dying interest in classical music.

So, I can't really agree with either extreme view points.

I guess there are some avant-garde fans that loudly complain like this article writer here, but they too are few. There shouldn't be any complaining about lack of popularity, they should just be proud of what they do and keep at it. And if they do complain, that's definitely insecurity getting the better of them. It takes a long time to build a fanbase, as I've learned with YouTube for example.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Forsooth said:


> In the era of Brahms, there were a few composers who wrote some quite off-the-beaten-path compositions. What were their names? _I don't know because nobody has ever heard of them._


Berlioz, Liszt and Wagner.


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## Bigbang (Jun 2, 2019)

I do not think the article by Andrea Moore was meant to be take literally. She knows what she is proposing is not even possible but was meant as a way of rethinking Beethoven--AGAIN......


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## MatthewWeflen (Jan 24, 2019)

Yeah, I didn't read it as a literal "ban." I got the impression she was advocating for not performing it in concert halls for a while, and maybe not listening at home.

Either way, I've already broken the "ban" today


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## Forsooth (Apr 17, 2018)

Woodduck said:


> Berlioz, Liszt and Wagner.


 Not by a long shot.


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## Forsooth (Apr 17, 2018)

Bigbang said:


> I do not think the article by Andrea Moore was meant to be take literally. She knows what she is proposing is not even possible but was meant as a way of rethinking Beethoven--AGAIN......


Look, Andrea Moore is simply an MJW* holding a little vanity protest event. "Down with the musical patriarchy! Up with new no-names who write plink-plank-plunk!" "The general population has no taste! Progressives and elites should decide!"

*Musical Justice Warrior


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## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

Musical Justice Warrior... good one.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Forsooth said:


> Not by a long shot.


What do you mean?


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## haydnguy (Oct 13, 2008)

hammeredklavier said:


> " *Commentary: Beethoven was born 250 years ago. To celebrate, how about we ban his music for a year? " by Andrea Moore* ( link to full article )
> [ "Classical music culture, as others, seems unable to resist anniversary blowouts: Mozart's 250th birth year in 2006 was exhaustively celebrated, as was the 250th anniversary of Bach's death in 2000....
> ...The problem with these festivities is that the composers being celebrated do not otherwise lack performances - far from it. Even among the living, the composers whose milestone birthdays are publicly celebrated are already the most prominent....
> ....Letting Beethoven's music fall silent for the duration of his 250th anniversary year might give us a new way into hearing it live again.....
> ...


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## AeolianStrains (Apr 4, 2018)

Both the suggestion (as understood by half of the respondents) and the reactions to it are ridiculous in the extreme. First, banning Beethoven for a year isn't long enough to hear Beethoven "fresh" again or rethink his music. Her position is firmly rooted in an elitist world where Beethoven plays in the concert halls non-stop. The vast majority of people go without Beethoven for far longer with zero impact. It's crazy how tiny this thinking is. Second, it does nothing to promote new music, as there many who could replace him. Instead of Beethoven, we'll just get more Mozart, Mendelssohn, Brahms, and Schubert. Instead of Symphony No. 3, we'll get a program of Rossini overtures, selections from Tchaikovsky, Gounod, and Faure. Not that there's anything wrong with that, actually! But I seriously doubt it'll raise the stature of recent contemporary composers.

For the same reason as the first point, the reaction to this is ridiculous. Do you all really think you can't go a year without Beethoven? Seriously? One year? Like with point to, just listen to more of everyone else you already like. You'll be fine. The world will still churn and in 2021 you'll resume normal Beethoven listening habits without suffering nary an effect.

This is all absurd.


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## SONNET CLV (May 31, 2014)

Quite frankly, I'm not in favor of banning Beethoven during this 250th anniversary year. I am finding out, as I do listen to much Beethoven in my daily listening sessions, that I have been expanding my listening time and adding a lot of "new music" that I hadn't yet heard -- things still shrink wrapped that I opened and popped into my CD deck, new vinyl I hadn't yet gotten around to hearing.... So, the Beethoven thing is working for me. I'm almost through listening to my first set of the symphonies (one set per month is planned, and I started with the set in the new Naxos _Beethoven Complete Edition_ box), but I've also heard at least a dozen non-Beethoven symphonies that are new to my ears. I'm treating the year as one for the celebration of music as well as for the celebration of Beethoven's music. (I'm eagerly awaiting the Mo-Fi LP pressing of Iron Butterfly's _In-a-Gadda-da-Vida_ album which I've been assured is "in the mail" and currently heading my way. So, it's not even all classical!)


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## Merl (Jul 28, 2016)

Woodduck said:


> At least Beethoven's birthday brings us performances of his music. Wagner's birthday brings us more critics asking whether we should feel guilty about performing him.


Hey that's unfair. We had a Wagner party back in 2013 for Ricky W's 200th. OK, it was poorly attended but me and Sad Alan had a hoot.


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## Guest (Jan 21, 2020)

Sorry - can't read the article in the UK, and I'm not going to comment on an idea on the basis of partial extracts.

Except to say that commissioning new music is always a good idea.


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

AeolianStrains said:


> For the same reason as the first point, the reaction to this is ridiculous. Do you all really think you can't go a year without Beethoven? Seriously? One year? Like with point to, just listen to more of everyone else you already like. You'll be fine. The world will still churn and in 2021 you'll resume normal Beethoven listening habits without suffering nary an effect.


A year is a long time to go without one's favorite composer, especially when there's no good reason to do so unless you're into deprivation.


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## rice (Mar 23, 2017)

How about banning the media and advertising industry from butchering his works for catchy tunes?
I bet Beethoven would be happy to see his symphonies stopped being used in stupid commercials.


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

rice said:


> How about banning the media and advertising industry from butchering his works for catchy tunes?
> I bet Beethoven would be happy to see his symphonies stopped being used in stupid commercials.


For most folks, it's the only exposure they will get to Beethoven, so I'm all for it.


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## rice (Mar 23, 2017)

Bulldog said:


> For most folks, it's the only exposure they will get to Beethoven, so I'm all for it.


Do most folks even ask for such exposure? Would benefit of any sort be brought by hearing few seconds fragment of Ode to Joy with lyrics replaced with details of mobile phone plans or life insurance?
Some of those commercials are really, incredibly stupid that seeing them could cause brain damage.

Because the tunes are well-known, and royalty-free. They're used as an easy, cheap way to catch audiences' attention. There's no good intention whatsoever behind Beethoven's music being used.


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## fluteman (Dec 7, 2015)

Huilunsoittaja said:


> The article is extreme, and the OT's response is extreme. Do we find that extreme opinions are the majority of folks? I bet a lot of people don't mind hearing someone else other than Beethoven, just as they would like hearing something tried and true. But to have an agenda of NO Beethoven or ONLY Beethoven is kinda strange. I think both answers will result in dying interest in classical music.
> 
> So, I can't really agree with either extreme view points.
> 
> I guess there are some avant-garde fans that loudly complain like this article writer here, but they too are few. There shouldn't be any complaining about lack of popularity, they should just be proud of what they do and keep at it. And if they do complain, that's definitely insecurity getting the better of them. It takes a long time to build a fanbase, as I've learned with YouTube for example.


Yes, the author's proposal is extreme, and I strongly suspect not intended to be taken literally but more to be thought-provoking. Valery Gergiev recently led the Munich Philharmonic in a broadcast performance of a contemporary piece by Jorg Widmann called Con brio that contained many indirect, even sly, but still unmistakable references to Beethoven, the 7th symphony in particular. No doubt there is a humorous aspect to this that Gergiev himself remarked on in an interview that was part of the broadcast. But more fundamental than the humor, I think, is that a tribute is being made to Beethoven's music by acknowledging its continuing importance and relevance in today's music rather than by simply playing Beethoven's music itself. This, I think, is the basic point Andrea Moore is making as well.


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## Forsooth (Apr 17, 2018)

Woodduck said:


> What do you mean?


What do you mean?


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