# Music with a strong autobiographical element...



## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

After a recent exchange between myself & fellow member of this forum stlukesguildohio on another thread (R. Strauss' _Alpensinfonie_) I began to think about these kinds of issues.

*Basically, do you like music with a strong autobiographical element or do you think it's something like "overindulgent wankery?" *(to paraphrase many customer reviewers on selling websites, esp. regarding Mahler & Shostakovich) Or are you somewhere between? Do you like it when composers kind of "let their guard down?" & give the listener a glimpse of their lives in some way? This discussion is meant to be as broad as possible, especially concerning issues such as why certain people "connect" more (or less) with certain types of works at various parts of the spectrum - be they heavily autobiographical or almost totally detached from what was going on in the composer's life at the time of composing a certain work.

I personally like this type of "autobiographical" music & here are three of my favourites which I can think of -

*Janacek* - Many of his works written during the time of his friendship with his muse Kamila Stosslova - eg. the _String Quartet #2 "Intimate Letters" _- a memorable moment happens at the start, Kamila (in the form of a viola) is repelling the composer's amorous advances (it is debatable whether they ever consummated their "relationship")

*Berg* - Many of his works are in some way about people in his life, the most famous being his final completed work, the _Violin Concerto "To the Memory of an Angel"_ dedicated to the daughter of two close friends who died of polio at the age of 18, she was like a daughter to him (he never had any children).

*Shostakovich* - The DSCH theme - his personal motto - appears in a number of works, chiefly the_ Symphony #10, String Quartet #2, Cello Concerto #1_. The "meaning" of this sequence of notes is (of course) ambigious, and it is much like a chameleon, changing every time it is used according to things like how the composer felt at the time & current events surrounding him.

On the "flip side" there are composers who rarely "let their guard down" or "let the mask slip." These composers were more interested in telling other people's stories rather than their own. Here are three that I can say this about pretty safely for the most part, but doubtless there will be people out there who disagree -

*Stravinsky* - Perhaps the most "objective" (a slippery term, I admit!) composer of the c20th. Throughout his life, he seemed to be more concerned with the application of techniques more than anything else. To simplify things, initially he made a huge splash as a "rhythm man" (eg. _The Rite of Spring_), then as a Neo-Classicist, then later in life he joined the Serialist camp, but in his own unique way. Look at a picture of his handwriting on musical scores, and it is so neat that it looks like it has been printed by a printing press rather than done by the human hand.

An exception when (perhaps?) Stravinsky did let his "mask slip" was the _Elegie_ for viola (later transcribed for violin) dating from 1940, when he had a double tragedy, losing both his (first) wife & child.

*Richard Strauss* - Again, was contented to tell other people's stories rather than his own, until the aftermath of the Second World War (a tragedy that really couldn't be ignored) inspired him to write his most personal utterance - the _Metamorphosen for 23 solo strings_. It hits me squarely between the eyes at every listen - & I've heard it live three times - even though most other things by him (except maybe his other post-WW2 works) haven't really engaged me to that high level.

*Richard Wagner* - Undoubtedly one of the finest & most influential composers of his generation. In opera, he reigns supreme, & the impact of these masterpieces were not confined to just that genre. However, he didn't give us much that could be described as autobiographical, but I'm glad he wrote the _Siegfried Idyll_. This is his only non-operatic work to make any impact & he wrote it as a birthday gift to his wife Cosima. It was played as he treated her to breakfast in bed! Looks like old Richard was a romantic - in the personal sense - after all, but I'm not happy that the man didn't produce other chamber works like this...


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## kv466 (May 18, 2011)

I think it's great to fully express oneself this way through music...but thanks for showing me the term, 'overindulgent wankery'


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## Aksel (Dec 3, 2010)

I don't really care either way, but there is some remarkable music with autobiographical elements. Like Grieg's Ballade, composed after the death of his parents.


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## HarpsichordConcerto (Jan 1, 2010)

I think one way of looking at this is that different composers have different tendencies to automatically share or not share at all their personal moods and views, and maybe even "autobiographical elements". And it wasn't just something that happened from the Romantic onwards. A good example of both ends even from as early as the Classical period were Haydn and Mozart. The former did not and whereas the latter often did. One never really knew what went on with Haydn's private life with a lot of the music that he wrote, rarely. Perhaps that had a lot to do with his subservient terms of employment. Mozart on the other hand, openly shared with you with what went on around him; take a look at his later operas dealing with domestic romance and middle class happenings (the opera flavours he clearly preferred) (namely _Figaro_, _Don Giovanni_, _Cosi_), and he wrote only one later opera seria (_Tito_, an official commission piece for the celebration/coronation of a ruler).


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## Aramis (Mar 1, 2009)

I'm strong supporter of linking composer's music with his personality, life and experiences but to some extent - I don't like all those expressionists making horror-like music in order to understand which you have to read about problems they had in life and stuff, often totally uninteresting and prosaic. This attitude doesn't speak to me and I prefer attitude of writting abstractively beautiful music despite experiencing tough misfortunes in life (Mozart). But if composer has poetic soul he won't fall into expressionist rubbish - Berlioz. Is there more autobiographical work than his SF? It expresses beautiful, poetic things worth of being expressed. 

My view could be reduced to one sentence: if composer belong to this kind of people who are works of art themselves he can and he should express himself freely because expressions from such person will always be poetic and beautiful.

If he doesn't belong to such people... then why he's composer anyway?


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## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

In Mozart the music may have provided catharsis while providing posterity the music. Tchaikovky's 6th symphony was apparently not cathartic for him, though it has served so for me.

Beethoven's 4th Piano Concerto seems (to me, in several performances) to express euphoria in the first movement, relished achievement in the 2nd, and settled satisfaction in the finale. I don't know if any autobiography was involved in the composition.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

HarpsichordConcerto said:


> I think one way of looking at this is that different composers have different tendencies to automatically share or not share at all their personal moods and views, and maybe even "autobiographical elements". *And it wasn't just something that happened from the Romantic onwards.*


That is a good point (esp. Your last sentence I have put in bold). I am no J.S. Bach expert, but I was recently listening to his _Chaconne_ from the _Partita in D minor _& reading the liner notes of that CD, it said that he composed this piece after getting back home from a trip to a distant court & finding that his first wife was dead & buried. So this mighty 15 minute piece (which was very long for the time) is said by scholars to commemorate her - the musical notes of her name are encrypted in the music, as is Bach's own name (he often did this with his own name, as did many other later composers) & just now online I have found info to the effect that it also quotes a liturgical work (below is a quote from this website, which dwells more generally on religious/theological issues, but this Bach work comes up - http://www.heythrop.ac.uk/fileadmin...tions/John_McDade/redemptive_suffering_1_.pdf ) If this research or scholarly opinion is on the mark, then J.S. Bach (in this work) was being both autobiographical & talking to corresponding issues of religion, faith, etc. -



> ...In particular, the Chaconne of the Partita in D Minor, which she interprets as Bach's musical epitaph in memory of his first wife, Maria Barbara, and appropriately one of the Passion/Resurrection works, evokes the melody and text of Martin Luther's Easter hymn, 'Christ lag in Todesbanden':
> 
> 'Christ lay in death's bondage, Given up for our sins.
> He is raised And has brought us life…No one could subdue death
> ...





Aramis said:


> I'm strong supporter of linking composer's music with his personality, life and experiences but to some extent - I don't like all those expressionists making horror-like music in order to understand which you have to read about problems they had in life and stuff, often totally uninteresting and prosaic...


Of course, there has to be a balance between so-called "objective" & "subjective" aspects in a work of art (although it's not always easy to strictly separate the two). The music has to be able to kind of stand on it's own two feet, independently as a succesful & engaging piece of music to some degree.

A related issue is that sometimes composers integrate their lives so well into a piece, that it's kind of "in your face" so to speak. This is what I feel about Sibelius' 4th symphony, which I think is possibly his finest. But it speaks so much to the man's struggle with depression, alcoholism & probably also the throat tumour that could have killed him (though the operation was succesful & it was done before he started work on this symphony) that it's kind of too close to the bone for me (& of course, don't forget that classic Sibelian trademark - the imaging of a bleak Nordic landscape). I am very sensitive to these kinds of things, when a composer portrays his own emotions as well as that, it can make me a bit depressed. That's why I rarely listen to things like this symphony, or Tchaikovsky's Pathetique, or Bruckner or Mahler's 9th symphonies. The symphonies by these guys that I like most are their comparatively lighter ones (& they aren't considered generally to be their greatest artistic achievements, but I avoid these kinds of judgements)...


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## StlukesguildOhio (Dec 25, 2006)

I read somewhere in the past a description of the string quartet as being a musical form akin to four intelligent individuals engaging in a dialog or discussion. Haydn and Mozart establish the string quartet at the height of the Enlightenment... but prior to the period of the great revolutions. One imagines their four "conversants" as elegant, witty, clever, and playful. With Beethoven, the four are as a group of Frenchmen arguing politics... as times brutal... nasty... angry... etc...

One can always interpret the work of the artist within the time period and culture that he or she is active in. The great Argentine writer points out that our Shakespeare is not the same as the Shakespeare of the Victorian age, let alone the Shakespeare of the time of Shakespeare. By the same token, _Don Quixote_ written today would not be the same book written today as it was written in the 1600s... even were it the same word for word... because the audience would not see it in the same way.

Returning again to Oscar Wilde (who was never wrong about anything) I am especially struck by this thought:

_All art is at once surface and symbol. Those who go beneath the surface do so at their peril. Those who read the symbol do so at their peril. It is the spectator, and not life, that art really mirrors._

I am wary of the notion of the "cult of personality"... the interpretation of the artist's work based upon his or her biography... for any number of reasons. The "cult of personality" has led the audience to value the name... almost as a name brand... over the actual art work. A crappy painting by Rembrandt would be afforded far more consideration and monetary value than a brilliant painting by a third-tier, less-well-known artist. The cult of personality has led the audience to be more concerned with the artist's biography than the art. Van Gogh is a brilliant artist... worth serious recognition... but for his art. Yet all too often what he is truly famous for is the notorious "ear incident" and his suicide. The cult of personality also leads to the notion that all art is autobiographical... and when it isn't there in the open for all to see...










... then we get situations where Marxists imagine Shakespeare as an early Socialist because he dared to portray rulers as less than perfect or where Feminists and Freudians imagine the goldfish in Matisse's paintings as obvious phallic symbols.










Again... more and more I am of the belief that *It is the spectator, and not life, that art really mirrors.*

Once more... I am not suggesting that there are not autobiographical elements in art... or that some works of art were clearly autobiographical in nature... however, I don't think any work of art worthy of contemplation can be reduced to a simple autobiographical "meaning"... or a simple single "meaning" of any sort.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

In my opening post, I did a typo (which now I can't edit) - it should have been Shostakovich's *String Quartet #8* (not #2 as below) :



Sid James said:


> *Shostakovich* - The DSCH theme - his personal motto - appears in a number of works, chiefly...String Quartet #2,...


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

> ... then we get situations where Marxists imagine Shakespeare as an early Socialist because he dared to portray rulers as less than perfect or where Feminists and Freudians imagine the goldfish in Matisse's paintings as obvious phallic symbols.


This is way over the top. An example in music is Khatchaturian's ballet _Spartacus_, which was staged in the Soviet era to show this figure of ancient history as a kind of Marxist revolutionary - Red flags waving & all. But I think what you're speaking to here is more related to art & ideology. Some ideology can be helpful in understanding past histories of art that were formerly neglected. I remember reading bits of Germaine Greer's seminal book on female artists across the ages called _The Obstacle Race_. Although I'm no fan of Ms Greer's politics in general (or what I know of them, although I'm not a mysoginist - I hope!) this book was quite enlightening for me, shedding new light on an aspect of art history that before reading this book I knew zero about.



> Again... more and more I am of the belief that *It is the spectator, and not life, that art really mirrors.*


Regarding that, especially in light of what you have quoted from Oscar Wilde, I think in things like _The Ballad of Reading Gaol _he did kind of move away from his "art for art's sake" dictum, & it is hard not to read this work without reference to the poet's own life, how he got into prison, & larger issues of the Victorian justice (or injustice?) system as he experienced it first-hand. So I think a creator's production of a work of art varies depending on many factors, & some of these are (of course) their life experiences, social/historical contexts, things like that. Even though Wilde (esp. in terms of his life before the imprisonment) probably stuck quite closely to those ideas you talked to in your quotes from the man, at the end he probably "changed tack" quite a bit. Some people may not like this (eg. my father didn't like Stravinsky or Picasso much because they were a bit like chameleons esp. in terms of their many stylisic "about faces") but at the end of the day, I think this talks to a creator's flexibility & ability to absorb the many currents & eddies that their lives took - whether as a result of things like personal relationships, political things, "big" events like wars, or experiencing the full brunt of the legal/justice system as Wilde had the misfortune to do.



> Once more... I am not suggesting that there are not autobiographical elements in art... or that some works of art were clearly autobiographical in nature... however, I don't think any work of art worthy of contemplation can be reduced to a simple autobiographical "meaning"... or a simple single "meaning" of any sort.


This is true, it is easy to kind of "sex up" the autobiographical elements or make artistic creators into "cult figures" as you allude to above. I have seen this in regards to online classical forums (though generally, not this one). I must admit to being a bit suss about making a composer your avatar, although I admit this is purely a personal prejudice (& hypocrisy - I have a dead film star as mine!). But by the same token, finding out about composer's lives & things like their hobbies and passions outside of music, this can enhance the listener's appreciation of their music. Eg. Anton Webern, whose music appears quite abstruse & soulless to some listeners, was a keen mountain hiker and collector of crystals. Knowing these things, the man's music suddenly appears more kind of "human." The peaks and troughs - the dynamic contrasts - in many of his works kind of speaks to the corresponding qualities of the Alpine landscape that he loved to be amongst. So too, the light-refracting qualities of crystals, which speak to the clear and delicate texture of his soundscapes. This is just one example I can think of from many, but I think you will get my point...



StlukesguildOhio said:


> I read somewhere in the past a description of the string quartet as being a musical form akin to four intelligent individuals engaging in a dialog or discussion. Haydn and Mozart establish the string quartet at the height of the Enlightenment... but prior to the period of the great revolutions. One imagines their four "conversants" as elegant, witty, clever, and playful. With Beethoven, the four are as a group of Frenchmen arguing politics... as times brutal... nasty... angry... etc...


Well, that's a good observation, as Elliott Carter in particular composed a couple of his string quartets with these things in mind. Carter has stated that, in these works, the players are kind of like protagonists in an opera or stage work. But he has also said that interpreting a score has much in common with the ways actors and directors develop their own "takes" on a play. There are perhaps just as many variables with interpreting music as there obviously are with plays, novels, literary works like that...


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## jaimsilva (Jun 1, 2011)

I would say every composition, every artistic creation, has, more or less, any autobiographic element (even if unexpressed)


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## tdc (Jan 17, 2011)

"_Continuing my exploration of Stravinsky, I am really clicking with the 'Dumbarton Oaks' , 'Danses concertantes' and ' Concerto in D' from this recording. These pieces actually have exactly the kind of sound I've been looking for for a while now, clearly I appreciate Stravinsky's neo-classical period. The closest I can come to explaining why I really love these works is they are somewhat similar to Ravel's Trio in A minor. I hear subtle yet profound genius here... these works don't seem autobiographical to me. The artists here seem to have a powerful detachment in the music, as though they are sacrificing their limited viewpoint for higher artistic ideals_. "

This was a quote I left in the current listening thread, and felt like posting here as its related. I just wanted to clarify, I don't think its wrong or less artistic to be autobiographical in one's music. It depends on what the artist is trying to convey. I just like it when artists can put this element aside at times when it serves the piece they are creating. That's what I meant by 'higher artistic ideals' - I was not trying to suggest non-autobiographical music has 'higher artistic ideals', but that the highest artistic ideals come from trying to find a vein of pure expression whether the work is autobiographical or not.


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## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

I entered a 'like' to the _Sid James/StlukesguildOhio _ couplet of posts because the pair of them represents ... well, good thinking. I have a quibble here and there, but of no earth-shaking significance.

Thanks, guys.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

tdc said:


> ...This was a quote I left in the current listening thread, and felt like posting here as its related. I just wanted to clarify, I don't think its wrong or less artistic to be autobiographical in one's music. It depends on what the artist is trying to convey. I just like it when artists can put this element aside at times when it serves the piece they are creating. That's what I meant by 'higher artistic ideals' - I was not trying to suggest non-autobiographical music has 'higher artistic ideals', but that *the highest artistic ideals come from trying to find a vein of pure expression whether the work is autobiographical or not*.


I think you express things rather well here, esp. the part I put in bold. Actually, sometimes an element of overall restraint in a piece of music kind of makes the parts where a composer lets go of that restraint a bit have just as much of an impact as a work that is more overtly "emotional." I think you're right in suggesting many of Stravinsky's works are exactly like this. Eg. in his opera-oratorio _Oedipus Rex_, at the end Oedipus realises that his life has been led under a web of deception and untruths - I am always grabbed emotionally so much when he utters his last line towards the end of the work "Lux facta est" (translated as something like "the truth has been revealed"). I don't know Latin, but I can remember that line exactly because - in the context of that story which Stravinsky on the whole relates with the detachment of a journalist - Oedipus' final utterance is just as emotional as something like a Puccini or Verdi opera aria, or a Handel oratorio. It also speaks to how, having now "seen" the truth, Oedipus goes away & blinds himself. Dramatic events like this, or Queen Jocasta's suicide by hanging herself, are not "played out" in this work, they are relayed by a narrator who I think of as kind of reporting on events from a distance, like a journalist. But a lot of the music, although on the surface quite "static" like the action (or lack thereof), clearly strikes at very deep emotional chords for the listener.

& another thing, autobiographical music doesn't necessarily have to be "big" or "profound" statements. Again, Stravinsky was an avid card player, so no wonder he wrote a ballet titled _Jeux de cartes_. I wonder if he was any good at this game? Here is a link to a photo of the man himself playing cards with others during a break in rehearsals of that very ballet, which is kind of appropriate & to a level contradicts my original statements of to him being detached (I'm not posting the photo as it is a site which asks you to pay money - not "free" so I'll be cautious) -

http://www.photographersdirect.com/buyers/stockphoto.asp?imageid=650957


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## Argus (Oct 16, 2009)

Aramis said:


> My view could be reduced to one sentence: if composer belong to this kind of people who are works of art themselves he can and he should express himself freely because expressions from such person will always be poetic and beautiful.
> 
> If he doesn't belong to such people... then why he's composer anyway?


You is a Romantic Marcel Duchamp.


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## Mephistopheles (Sep 3, 2012)

I just wanted to add a comment on the nature of autobiography in music along with people in this thread, which I didn't want to take further off course.

Unlike StlukesguildOhio, I don't necessarily think that autobiographical music is boring, but I do agree that whatever we see as autobiographical in abstract music is purely what we bring to a piece. If you listen to a piece of music without knowledge of the composer's life and cannot learn from the music alone what events in the composer's life it supposedly portrays, those portrayals aren't there. If we only see them after the fact of learning about the composer, then of course it is us bringing our knowledge to them. "Oh, now I see it!" It's a kind of confirmation bias, I think, unless a composer explicitly states that a certain piece is about them, and that is very rare with abstract music.


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## Sonata (Aug 7, 2010)

I do like when the music tells a story; whether it's the composers' own personal story of those of others. It doesn't have to be autobiographical per se. But in general if the music is good, knowing the story behind it if there is one does provide extra satisfaction for me.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

Mephistopheles said:


> I just wanted to add a comment on the nature of autobiography in music along with people in this thread, which I didn't want to take further off course.
> 
> Unlike StlukesguildOhio, I don't necessarily think that autobiographical music is boring, but I do agree that whatever we see as autobiographical in abstract music is purely what we bring to a piece. If you listen to a piece of music without knowledge of the composer's life and cannot learn from the music alone what events in the composer's life it supposedly portrays, those portrayals aren't there. If we only see them after the fact of learning about the composer, then of course it is us bringing our knowledge to them. "Oh, now I see it!" It's a kind of confirmation bias, I think, unless a composer explicitly states that a certain piece is about them, and that is very rare with abstract music.


Well you are right in that unless the listener knows for example Shostakovich's DSCH motto, it may as well just be like any other music, with the meaning the individual listener makes up as he listens. But I am the type of person who for example likes to read about the composer's life at the time of composing the work, his inspiration, influences, who commissioned the work, historical context and so on. Often, if the liner notes of a cd are good, they will convey these things and relate them to the music (if they are not so good/useful, they'll do boring hagiography, which I think is of not much use - eg. we all know Shostakovich was a great symphonist of the 20th century).

But anyway, there are two main schools of thought re art appreciation, or music appreciation (or liturature, film, whatever):

1. Consumers of the work of art who are interested in the background or history of a work, which informs their taking it in

2. Consumers of the work who are not interested, they just want to 'take it in' on their own terms, with little or no other knowledge/information other than the work itself (the 'washover' effect)

Of course, these are two polarities, many people are in between. Often I do the 'washover effect' but as I said in my opening post, I tend to connect most strongly with composers who do put something of themselves into their music. Everyone is different in how they approach music. Ultimately, as you get more passionate and interested about something, you will learn more things about eg. the composer's life. & listen to more of their music. & put it all together in your own way.

There is no wrong or right way, just the way/s that work for you.


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## MaestroViolinist (May 22, 2012)

Not bothering to read all the long posts in this thread (although that part about Bach's Chaconne I didn't know) but I would like to add a couple of works that were about/for people in the composers life: Wieniawski’s Légende was instrumental in helping to secure his engagement to Isabella Hampton. Initially, Isabella’s parents did not approve of their daughter’s engagement to Wieniawski, but after they heard the piece, they were so impressed that they offered the young couple their blessing, and they got married. Also Paganini's duets for guitar and violin he wrote for his girlfriend. I'm trying to think of some more but I can't remember... 

I think it is good when the composer has his/her personal story behind the music, to me it makes it more interesting. 

Also it helps the performer to know how to play the piece.


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## drpraetorus (Aug 9, 2012)

All music is autobigraphical. Most is not as obvious or over blown as the Alpine Symphony or Ein Heldenleben. 

You might want to include The Art of the Fugue with the BACH theme in the final fugue.


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## Ramako (Apr 28, 2012)

I think that there is autobiographical and autobiographical. There is music trying to describe events in one's life, and there is music trying to describe one's emotional state, which can be applicable to many situations.

"I think that many confuse 'applicability' with 'allegory'; but the one resides in the freedom of the reader, and the other in the purposed domination of the author." - J.R.R. Tolkein.


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## StlukesguildOhio (Dec 25, 2006)

All music is autobigraphical. Most is not as obvious or over blown as the Alpine Symphony or Ein Heldenleben. 

Interesting choice... as Richard Strauss is perhaps the composer whom Sid continually sites as always hiding behind a mask... never revealing himself through his music. Obviously, all art reveals elements of the personality of the creator. I do not know if I could quite call this "autobiographical" in the majority of instances... and I am always suspicious of the almost "Freudian" efforts to analyze the artist on the basis of the art work. A great majority of artists find subject matter beyond their own personal lives to be far more interesting. I think the reason that so many are driven to interpret some personal link when listening to music is because a great deal of music is purely "abstract". We can look at a Matisse and see the still life subjects or read a poem and see that it is about the landscape or the the poet's lover... but what exactly is Mozart's Clarinet Quintet or Bach's Cello Suite no. 1 about? Some find that knowing about the state of mind of the composer at a given time or his personal life gives them something to grasp onto: "Ah... I get it! Schubert's "Death and the Maiden" Quartet is "about" Schubert realizing that he was dying!" But is that really what it was about? And even if that were part of the inspiration... is that all it's about?


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## drpraetorus (Aug 9, 2012)

All music is autobiographic in the sense that it is created from the mind of the composer and that mind has been formed by the events in the life of that composer. So all that is written is, in some form or other a direct response to the life the informs it. The work does not need to be programatic. Even such "abstract" works as Mozart's Clarinet Quintet or Bach's Cello Suite no. 1 or Beethovens symphonies are autobigraphical. Why did the composer choose that melody? Why that key? why that instrumentation? Why those harmonies? Questions ad infinitum. In many instances, even the composer would not be able to say why a particular musical decision was made, beyond saying "it best expressed my thoughts at that time." The real why is the combination of nature and nurture and milieu that produced the composer and composition.


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## tdc (Jan 17, 2011)

drpraetorus said:


> All music is autobiographic in the sense that *it is created from the mind of the composer* and that mind has been formed by the events in the life of that composer. .


Sometimes I wonder if all music is created this way. What about subconscious influences? Things that have deeply influenced the composers, that have originated from other composers? How is that autobiographic? What about deeper levels of the subconscious mind that perhaps everyone shares? Do you think that may be possible? I have read about composers who feel as though their creative process is guided from somewhere else - a 'muse' if you will. I have spoken with a composer who honestly feels that compositions just come into his head, and that he is not consciously composing the pieces, they are coming from somewhere else. I think the creative process is different for different composers, but its not quite as simplistic as always just originating with their own thoughts and life experiences. Sometimes yes, sometimes no.


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## Mephistopheles (Sep 3, 2012)

Some Mark Twain for you:

"As if there was much of anything in any human utterance, oral or written, except plagiarism! The kernel, the soul - let us go further and say the substance, the bulk, the actual and valuable material of all human utterances - is plagiarism. For substantially all ideas are second-hand, consciously and unconsciously drawn from a million outside sources, and daily used by the garnerer with a pride and satisfaction born of the superstition that he originated them; whereas there is not a rag of originality about them anywhere except the little discoloration they get from his mental and moral calibre and his temperament, and which is revealed in characteristics of phrasing."

So perhaps one man's composition is another man's biography.


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## Jeremy Marchant (Mar 11, 2010)

Sid James said:


> *Richard Strauss* - Again, was contented to tell other people's stories rather than his own, until the aftermath of the Second World War (a tragedy that really couldn't be ignored) inspired him to write his most personal utterance - the _Metamorphosen for 23 solo strings_. It hits me squarely between the eyes at every listen - & I've heard it live three times - even though most other things by him (except maybe his other post-WW2 works) haven't really engaged me to that high level.


Good post. But is the above bit true? 
In _Ein Heldenleben_, the Hero is surely the composer - after all, the section, The Hero's works of peace consists of nothing but excerpts form compositions by Richard Strauss.

The _Sinfonia domestica _is a notoriously vulgar depiction of the Strausses and their little baby from evening, through a, er, turbulent night to the next morning

_Intermezzo_, even if fictionalised, is based episodes from the life of the composer and his wife, Pauline.

To answer the question, I think that most musical compositions, from Beethoven onwards, will have at least partly an autobiographical component. There are at least two dimensions to this and individual works are somewhere on each scale.

The first scale is the extent to which the composer's experience and/or personality are sublimated and the music can be felt and interpreted by the listener as relating to humanity in general (I guess _Sinfonia domestica_ is near one end of this scale, and _Metamorphosen _rather further along towards the 'universal' end).

The second scale relates the extent to which the music reflects things happening (_Sinfonia domestica_, again) as opposed to being a representation of a psychological state. Surely, he latter is by far the most common. An example of music at the psychological/personal ends of the scales might be Tchaikovsky 6; Sibelius 4 might be at the psychological/universal ends.

A descriptive/personal piece is _Ein Heldenleben_ for example. Descriptive/universal is much harder to find examples of: music which describes specific events, but events which many people have (or could have) experienced. Any ideas?

I tend to feel the descriptive/personal pieces are, at best, a bit of fun, usually they'e just indulgent. Psychological/universal is the one for me.


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## drpraetorus (Aug 9, 2012)

Everything a composer experiences, even if it is not consciously remembered goes into the subconscious and mixes together to become who that composer is. Indeed who that person is. The mind of an artist is always working on art. The majority of it on the subconscious level. The mix is always going on. Sometimes it comes to the surface. Paihters will get ideas for pictures, writters for a story. Composers will often have something come up like, "This would be a good idea for a piece" or "Hey that's a nice melody". Usually they go back in the mix as half formed ideas. Some comoposers like Bach, Mozart or Shostakovitch are able to work out all the details in their minds before putting them down on paper. Everything has been precomoposed by the conscious/subconscious and they just take dictation. Then there are composers like Beethoven who have to fight for almost every note. Ideas come out but are not quite right so they go back in the mental oven over and over until they come out right. I think most composers are in this group. Even for them however, there are moments where ther music flows and it seems like it is being given from an other source. That is a wonderful, transendental experience.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

RE R. Strauss, I am going off things like various sources on him (in books on music, mainly), like this one I quoted in another post.

http://www.talkclassical.com/21139-big-three-modernists-poll-2.html#post350438

The issue is not the titles of his pieces, but whether the emotion is related to him or not. Or is it mainly images and stuff like that? _Metamorphosen_, although not with an autobiographical title, is his most autobiographical utterance. Other sources than I quoted in the link about corroborate this view. All his life he'd written music about other things (eg. historical or literary subjects) and with a fair degree of detachment. With this late work, it was time to get down and actually say something about his own feelings, and cut the 'artifice.'

Also, I think Art Rock and peeyaj (members of this forum) agreed with me when I said on another thread that _Metamorphosen_ was the only work by him that appealed to them (for similar reasons, I think?, but I haven't gone back to check the post). Its the type of work that resonates with me due to various personal factors as well, I've heard it live like 3 times over the past couple of decades.


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## Andreas (Apr 27, 2012)

When painters paint portraits of themselves or when photographers take pictures of themselves, to me those are just cases a sad self-obsession. There's much of that in lterature, and many writers should have kept a diary instead of chronicling their own mundane existence.

I find this less in music, thanks to its inherent abstractness. With Richard Strauss, I don't feel that his tone poems are all that autobiographical. Not even the Heldenleben or the Sinfonia domestica. Somehow, he seems rather like an actor to me, like a performer giving the performance of a composer who's writing autobiographical works.

Besides, Strauss was obviously aware that he as a person was insignificant. After all, he usually chose literary text to transform them into music. I'm sure he somehow identified with those texts, with the themes and characters they're about. But I like that he chose to use these texts as prisms through which he expressed himself rather than shamelessly pouring out his soul on paper.


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