# That music which you just, "no".



## Richannes Wrahms (Jan 6, 2014)

For me, a few examples:

Almost if not the entire output of Sorabji and Brian, I don't think I need to explain this one.

The ultravirtuosic works of Liszt and Paganini.

Much of Messiaen is strange or even against to my musical intuition, as in, his taste in choosing from all options possible to him is contrary to mine.


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## progmatist (Apr 3, 2021)

I'm quite fond of Brian, but can see why others may not care for him.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

Anything by Nono is a no-no


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## TwoFlutesOneTrumpet (Aug 31, 2011)

progmatist said:


> I'm quite fond of Brian, but can see why others may not care for him.


He's not the messiah, he's a very naughty boy.


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## MusicSybarite (Aug 17, 2017)

Operas by Rameau, Lully, Vinci and that sort of Baroque composers. Since those works are often performed on original instruments, for me it would be endlessly tortuous!!

Piano sonatas by Boulez and piano music in that style. I've tried music like that with unsuccesful results.


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## joen_cph (Jan 17, 2010)

I have a minimal interest in minimalism.

Also, most works by Cage, as well as Boulez' Structures, tend to make me want to escape.

Paganini was already mentioned.


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

Bach is my #1 composer, but I don't need to hear anything by Handel ever again.
I like operas by Rossini, Bellini, Donizetti and Puccini, but Verdi's operas don't do it for me.
I love lots of Mozart, but his operas - no.
There's plenty of Beethoven I love, but I loathe the ninth symphony, triple concerto, and basically everything he wrote that includes voices. In general, I quite like works that include substantial parts for voice(s), but not from him.

I know, it does not make much sense, but that's how my brain is wired apparently.


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## MusicSybarite (Aug 17, 2017)

Art Rock said:


> Bach is my #1 composer, but I don't need to hear anything by Handel ever again.
> There's plenty of Beethoven I love, but I loathe the ninth symphony, triple concerto, and basically everything he wrote that includes voices. In general, I quite like works that include substantial parts for voice(s), but not from him.
> 
> I know, it does not make much sense, but that's how my brain is wired apparently.


Interesting how tastes are so different from one person to another. His _Missa Solemnis_ is one of my all-time favorite pieces by anyone. I also like his 9th Symphony, but its overexposure becomes annoying and tiresome. I don't remember the last time I heard it, perhaps more than 3 or 4 years ago.


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## julide (Jul 24, 2020)

hammeredklavier said:


> Anything by Nono is a no-no


The only music i'm actually repulsed along with john cage's


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## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

Boy there's a lot, some already mentioned. I cannot abide baroque trumpet concertos. Can't stand the sound. All of them irritating and annoying - and so is the godawful Haydn Trumpet Concerto.


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## Bkeske (Feb 27, 2019)

Not a composer, but Lang Lang. I just can’t.


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## Allegro Con Brio (Jan 3, 2020)

Frankly, the majority of Tchaikovsky’s symphonies - dull, bombastic, and overlong. There’s plenty of music I don’t care for, but probably the only other composer that fits the bill of this thread topic for me is anything by Satie. I would always be willing to give the vast majority of music another chance even if I didn’t originally care for it.


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## allaroundmusicenthusiast (Jun 3, 2020)

mbhaub said:


> Boy there's a lot, some already mentioned. I cannot abide baroque trumpet concertos. Can't stand the sound. All of them irritating and annoying - and so is the godawful Haydn Trumpet Concerto.


I share this sentiment. I think, Bach notwithstanding, baroque music is the worst music ever made in the West. Yes, there are some great and original composers, Monteverdi, Purcell, Rameau, Couperin, and Bach of course (although perhaps my favourite Bach works are not everyone elses, the masses and passions I can do without really, and please no concertos)... And I'm surely forgetting some others. But everything after the end of the 16th century is just so uninspiring in general. For me music really got something back with Mozart and Franz Haydn's late works (especially his last set of quartets). From then on, in my opinion, we've been riding a good wave.

I want to make clear that I don't hate baroque music, but it's just the first thing that I would throw in the fire if it had to come to it. And the closest thing for me that I'd just generally say, No, thank you, please give me something else.


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## Brahmsian Colors (Sep 16, 2016)

Three pieces get the "no" from two of my favorite composers: First, Brahms' Piano Quintet, for which I have no aesthetic attraction, and second, Mozart's Piano Concerto No. 20 and his Symphony No. 40. I also derive little enjoyment from Beethoven's Violin Concerto.


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## Highwayman (Jul 16, 2018)

PHILIP GLASS!

I feel like I have repeatedly uttered my dislike for his music in many similar threads throughout the years but since we`re talking about Glass, I don`t feel guilty for repeating myself. :lol:


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

Brahms. How people subject themselves willingly to such trash I will never understand. Beethoven without the inspiration or innovation. Enjoy I guess.


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## Clairvoyance Enough (Jul 25, 2014)

When it comes to orchestral music at least, I cannot stand non-HIP recordings anymore. I love Neville Marriner's Handel, Haydn, and Mozart, but I just can't listen to it. It sounds like the music is being played at the bottom of a pool in the next room, the aural equivalent of spilling a water jug on a fresh watercolor painting and then playing tic-tac-toe on it with the largest available brushes. Why does it sound so heavy and blurry and ugly? I can't do it.

On the flipside, I will always resent Glenn Gould for using that altered piano on his Bach recordings. That's what I have always read anyway, that there is no ambience or actual percussive punch on any of those albums because he wanted a more faithful sound? Whatever the reason was, I _haaaate_ that twinkle-toed typewriting featherweight piano he used.


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## TwoFlutesOneTrumpet (Aug 31, 2011)

Couchie said:


> Brahms. How people subject themselves willingly to such trash I will never understand. Beethoven without the inspiration or innovation. Enjoy I guess.


Count me among those who willingly subjects to Brahms' trash and enjoys every minute. I will never understand how one cannot appreciate Brahms' music but I guess we all have our blind spots.


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## TwoFlutesOneTrumpet (Aug 31, 2011)

Clairvoyance Enough said:


> *When it comes to orchestral music at least, I cannot stand non-HIP recordings anymore. *I love Neville Marriner's Handel, Haydn, and Mozart, but I just can't listen to it. It sounds like the music is being played at the bottom of a pool in the next room, the aural equivalent of spilling a water jug on a fresh watercolor painting and then playing tic-tac-toe on it with the largest available brushes. Why does it sound so heavy and blurry and ugly? I can't do it.
> 
> On the flipside, I will always resent Glenn Gould for using that altered piano on his Bach recordings. That's what I have always read anyway, that there is no ambience or actual percussive punch on any of those albums because he wanted a more faithful sound? Whatever the reason was, I _haaaate_ that twinkle-toed typewriting featherweight piano he used.


I am the opposite. I avoid HIP recordings like the plague. They sound thin and shrilly and I cannot stand the sound of period woodwinds. I do appreciate the transparency and detail they bring out but that is not enough for me. You can find transparency and detail in modern instrument recordings too, if you look hard enough.


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## Animal the Drummer (Nov 14, 2015)

Mahler. I've tried, I really have, and so have one or two musical friends who love his stuff and have attempted to win me over to it. The immense skill and craft he put into his scores is clear, but I just don't enjoy the sounds they add up to. Sorry.


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## jim prideaux (May 30, 2013)

Elgar.......tried over the years and really do not like his stuff!

Tchaikovsky.....similar response to an earlier post.


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## david johnson (Jun 25, 2007)

I mostly dislike rap.


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## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

Clairvoyance Enough said:


> When it comes to orchestral music at least, I cannot stand non-HIP recordings anymore. I love Neville Marriner's Handel, Haydn, and Mozart, but I just can't listen to it. It sounds like the music is being played at the bottom of a pool in the next room, the aural equivalent of spilling a water jug on a fresh watercolor painting and then playing tic-tac-toe on it with the largest available brushes. Why does it sound so heavy and blurry and ugly? I can't do it.


I like some of the mentioned Marriner recordings a lot but I find both the recorded sound apparently much better (esp. the Argo/London/Decca were considered audiophile by some) than you do and I actually find them often rather too small scale, "lightweight" and elegant. Not heavy enough when needed!


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## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

Brahmsian Colors said:


> Three pieces get the "no" from two of my favorite composers: First, Brahms' Piano Quintet, for which I have no aesthetic attraction, and second, Mozart's Piano Concerto No. 20 and his Symphony No. 40.


I am shocked... I love all of them and at least for the last two I thought they were among these that listeners who find Mozart "too light" or "too cheerful" tended to like.
(I don't actively dislike the Beethoven VC but it is not a great favorite either and one of a few major Beethoven pieces I find rather overrated, the other big one is the Pastoral symphony but there are also a few highly popular piano sonatas I am not too fond of.)


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

I say no to:

Italian romantic era opera.
Vivaldi
Messiaen
Hanson
Modern instrument bands for baroque music


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

We are a very Catholic forum it seems. Threads that invite us to confess our dislikes and hates always seem to do well.


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

Bkeske said:


> Not a composer, but Lang Lang. I just can't.


The disdain for Lang Lang is one I thought (some time ago) that I agreed with. But it does seem that just occasionally he produces really great recordings. Like his Mozart concertos with Harnoncourt and his Rachmaninov 2nd concerto with Gergiev. Those are both excellent records and I missed out on them for a long time because I believed on the basis of a couple of less good records and his reputation that he was awful.


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## Animal the Drummer (Nov 14, 2015)

His technique is far from awful and at times, as you say, that can apply to his recordings too, but (so far at any rate) his default position is saccharine-drenched OTT musical vandalism. Most definitely a try-before-you-buy artist IMHO.


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

^ Try before you buy, certainly. And I have heard some of his stinkers. But have you heard the two recordings I suggested? I find them exceptionally good ... and it's nothing at all to do with technique.


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

TwoFlutesOneTrumpet said:


> I am the opposite. I avoid HIP recordings like the plague. They sound thin and shrilly and I cannot stand the sound of period woodwinds. I do appreciate the transparency and detail they bring out but that is not enough for me. You can find transparency and detail in modern instrument recordings too, if you look hard enough.


I agree....HIP does little for me...i just don't like the sound...


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## Tero (Jun 2, 2012)

Not any particular composer, but mostly I don't "get" string quartets of the era where they became popular. I can even tolerate strings with piano, but just the 4 strings, no. I'm OK with baroque sonatas for a small number of strings. I like a Vivaldi disc I have by the Purcell Quartet.

I have nearly everything composed by Sibelius on disc. I only like the one quartet in a minor key.


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## DeepR (Apr 13, 2012)

- Sprechgesang
- Piano music that requires banging with elbows and stuff
- That pretentious, terrible sounding music of zero substance that falls somewhere between electronic and classical (but sucks as either) that former member some guy liked (I believe he called it "new music").


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## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

DeepR said:


> - Sprechgesang


Good one! That horrible noise is so far off my radar that I didn't even think of it.


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## fbjim (Mar 8, 2021)

-> Bruckner (maybe you have to be old to like him. I'll try in a decade or so)
-> Most song cycles/cantanas, excepting ones with highly symphonic writing and structure (i.e. Das Lied von der Erde)
-> Harpsichords (including continuos)


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## fbjim (Mar 8, 2021)

DeepR said:


> - Piano music that requires banging with elbows and stuff


hey i love Winnsboro Cotton Mill Blues!


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## superhorn (Mar 23, 2010)

De gustibus non est disputandum . For me at least , the music of Gounod is bland, insipid and often sickly sweet . Yet, his music has lots of nice melodies , but there's no there there . 
"Faust " is an utter trivialization of the Faust legend , and "Romeo & Juliettte " is cloyingly sentimental . 
His Saint Cecilia mass is as bland as vanilla pudding and pales into utter insignificance compared to the Bach B minor mass, Beethoven's Missa Solemnis and the three great Bruckner masses , which are sadly neglect din the concert hall . 
The music of Frederick Delius ,for all its surface lushness and glamor , is monotonously languorous in mood and filled with the most cloyingly sentimental harmonies . I'm a big fan of other English composers such as Elgar, Vaughan Williams, Arnold Bax, Arthur Bliss among others , but listening to the music of Delius is like being forced to consume a big bowl of treacle .


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## janxharris (May 24, 2010)

..........................................


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## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

Anything before c.1700. I just don't like the sound of anything before Corelli, Albinoni etc. Music from drums with sackbuts, serpents, shawms etc brings to mind tedious evenings in a consumption-ridden Tudor or Stuart court dutifully watching ridiculously-dressed people doing silly-looking dances. The sound of the lute especially brings me out in a rash. I would probably be better disposed towards early church music rather than all that courtly rumpa-tump-tumpery or hey-nonny-nonny minstrel stuff, but there's already more than enough music from the last 300 years to occupy my time.


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

^ Are you also saying no to Monteverdi?


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## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

Enthusiast said:


> ^ Are you also saying no to Monteverdi?


I'm actually saying no to any music from the mid-baroque and earlier - the general sound-world doesn't butter my parsnips at all and at my time of life I'm not likely to find myself on the road to Damascus. Sorry, E.


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

superhorn said:


> ...... The music of Frederick Delius ,for all its surface lushness and glamor , is monotonously languorous in mood and filled with the most cloyingly sentimental harmonies ,..... .


Agreed...Delius does nothing for me.....starts nowhere, goes nowhere, ends up in same place.


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## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

Agree about Philip Glass and Sorabji. Not my cup of tea. Scelsi, Saunders and Lachenmann are others.


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## joen_cph (Jan 17, 2010)

Of course, this thread became an embarrassment long ago ...


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## Merl (Jul 28, 2016)

Operas sung in English. I'm not keen on opera and loathe musicals so mixing the two is like mixing liquorice and Brussel sprouts for me (two other things I dislike intensely) and induces a similar gag reflex. Peter Grimes (*shudder).


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## BlackAdderLXX (Apr 18, 2020)

Merl said:


> Operas sung in English. I'm not keen on opera and loathe musicals so mixing the two is like mixing liquorice and Brussel sprouts for me (two other things I dislike intensely) and induces a similar gag reflex. Peter Grimes (*shudder).


I listened to bits of Mackerras conducting Magic Flute in English. I LOVE Mackerras, especially in Mozart. I like the Magic Flute but the English lyrics were just...nope... for me.


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## BlackAdderLXX (Apr 18, 2020)

I pretty much dislike atonal/post tonal music. Feels like music made in a meth lab to me. I keep trying though. I really liked Breaking Bad, so maybe at some point I'll have my Heisenberg moment.


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## HenryPenfold (Apr 29, 2018)

Anything by Sibelius or Brahms


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## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

Merl said:


> Operas sung in English. I'm not keen on opera and loathe musicals so mixing the two is like mixing liquorice and Brussel sprouts for me (two other things I dislike intensely) and induces a similar gag reflex. Peter Grimes (*shudder).


I feel the same way. I didn't know it wasn't just me. Maybe it has to do with the vocalizing of the English language that's less well suited than something like German or Italian. I think it's in the vowels that doesn't work for me.


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## Brahmsian Colors (Sep 16, 2016)

Couchie said:


> Brahms. How people subject themselves willingly to such trash I will never understand. Beethoven without the inspiration or innovation. Enjoy I guess.


Please clarify what you mean by "such trash".


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## ThankYouKiwi (May 2, 2021)

Liszt is the only composer i can think of who is just... ugh... 

I like the b minor sonata and the second piano concerto but everything else, orchestral and piano, is just random and pointless

A perfect example is the tarantella. Too all over the place, it adds up to nothing and is amazingly unsatisfying


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## Brahmsian Colors (Sep 16, 2016)

Kreisler jr said:


> I am shocked... I love all of them and at least for the last two I thought they were among these that listeners who find Mozart "too light" or "too cheerful" tended to like.
> (I don't actively dislike the Beethoven VC but it is not a great favorite either and one of a few major Beethoven pieces I find rather overrated, the other big one is the Pastoral symphony but there are also a few highly popular piano sonatas I am not too fond of.)


While I enjoy very much a good deal of Mozart's music (see the Mozart favorites thread you, I and others contributed to today) , I personally have never believed or characterized it as being "too light" or "too cheerful". Regarding the 20th PC and the 40th Symphony, I have simply never found them particularly satisfying---perhaps for now at least....Otherwise, though Brahms has been my favorite composer for over 60 years, I'm still not really close to (as in fond of) every work he produced.


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## Botschaft (Aug 4, 2017)

Brahmsian Colors said:


> Please clarify what you mean by "such trash".


Couchie is just trolling.


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## Ethereality (Apr 6, 2019)

elgars ghost said:


> Anything before c.1700. I just don't like the sound of anything before Corelli, Albinoni etc. Music from drums with sackbuts, serpents, shawms etc brings to mind tedious evenings in a consumption-ridden Tudor or Stuart court dutifully watching ridiculously-dressed people doing silly-looking dances. The sound of the lute especially brings me out in a rash.


I guess I'm not into whatever you're into then? Not sure what that is :tiphat:


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## Merl (Jul 28, 2016)

The whole being of this thread is inflammatory so there's little point in feeling offended as someone will undoubtedly stand on your toes by saying they loathe something you love. There's times you need to just smile, even if you dont agree. For example, I said I dont like opera sung in English and have a particular dislike for Peter Grimes but I know others on here love it (eg Henry). I didn't write that to have a go at Henry, and he knows that, or anyone else. I wrote it as it's something I dislike. Likewise I may feel differently about Brahms' and Sibelius' music. I'm sure Henry et al aren't sat at home plotting revenge or crying into their late night/early morning coffee. Personally, I'm still laughing at EG's "... The sound of the lute especially brings me out in a rash." Whether I agree or not that was funny. :lol:


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

Merl said:


> The whole being of this thread is inflammatory so there's little point in feeling offended as someone will undoubtedly stand on your toes by saying they loathe something you love.


Excellent advice. It goes for the statements as well as the replies to the statements. Don't get too personal though.


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## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

Ethereality said:


> I guess I'm not into whatever you're into then? Not sure what that is :tiphat:


I'm certainly not averse to the music from the young man shown on your avatar - I have more music by Mozart than I do by anyone else, even though he's not my favourite composer. In terms of total discs (minus any different recordings of the same works) Bach, Beethoven, Shostakovich, Britten and Hindemith are the next best represented in my collection. By the terms of this thread I would be surprised if any of the last three don't feature somewhere along the way.


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

Merl said:


> The whole being of this thread is inflammatory so there's little point in feeling offended as someone will undoubtedly stand on your toes by saying they loathe something you love. There's times you need to just smile, even if you dont agree. For example, I said I dont like opera sung in English and have a particular dislike for Peter Grimes but I know others on here love it (eg Henry). I didn't write that to have a go at Henry, and he knows that, or anyone else. I wrote it as it's something I dislike. Likewise I may feel differently about Brahms' and Sibelius' music. I'm sure Henry et al aren't sat at home plotting revenge or crying into their late night/early morning coffee. Personally, I'm still laughing at EG's "... The sound of the lute especially brings me out in a rash." Whether I agree or not that was funny. :lol:
> 
> View attachment 157438


I agree. Very much so. But when people who have the experience with music to enjoy works (works that others treasure) but are almost pleased or proud that they don't ... it can make for depressing reading. Strong dislike is a strong emotion, a real reaction, that can sometimes be turned around with a little humility. Maybe we should have a thread on "music I hated but now love".

There are maybe two ways of disliking some parts of the classical repertoire. One is to dislike and deny that there is any value to the disliked item. The other - which is what this thread is about - is more confessional: it is saying "I dislike x but know - because so many disagree - that it has real value". I think this thread is mostly about this latter way of disliking. But, this being the case, the question is begged: why not keep trying?

There is so much that I once disliked - some of it actively so - but for me that can work as a real incentive to hear what the very many who feel differently are hearing in it. Messiaen is an example for me. I hated his music for quite a long time but now love it above so many of his contemporaries. I know of no music that affects me so physically. Early music was another grey area for me that I now enjoy a lot.


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## Azol (Jan 25, 2015)

The no-no for me is probably percussion music (concertos etc) which really gets on my nerves very quick. Which means no Varese and/or Xenakis in my daily music menue. Other than that, I'm quite open for new possibilities. You say "no" to some thing then you suddenly begin to listen to it obsessively. Guess it's the right music at the right time/place.


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## Ethereality (Apr 6, 2019)

elgars ghost said:


> I'm certainly not averse to the music from the young man shown on your avatar - I have more music by Mozart than I do by anyone else, even though he's not my favourite composer. In terms of total discs (minus any different recordings of the same works) Bach, Beethoven, Shostakovich, Britten and Hindemith are the next best represented in my collection. By the terms of this thread I would be surprised if any of the last three don't feature somewhere along the way.


Sorry quoted the wrong post. Somehow yours was added on. In any case I love Britten and Hindemith, recently attended a Diversions concert


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## fbjim (Mar 8, 2021)

Enthusiast said:


> There are maybe two ways of disliking some parts of the classical repertoire. One is to dislike and deny that there is any value to the disliked item. The other - which is what this thread is about - is more confessional: it is saying "I dislike x but know - because so many disagree - that it has real value". I think this thread is mostly about this latter way of disliking. But, this being the case, the question is begged: why not keep trying?
> 
> There is so much that I once disliked - some of it actively so - but for me that can work as a real incentive to hear what the very many who feel differently are hearing in it. Messiaen is an example for me. I hated his music for quite a long time but now love it above so many of his contemporaries. I know of no music that affects me so physically. Early music was another grey area for me that I now enjoy a lot.


There is so much music out there that you can only spend so much time banging your head against something. People have profound experiences listening to Bruckner's 8th - and when I listen to it, I want that profound experience people talk about, and then it just does nothing for me. And here's the thing - I'm not being kept from experiencing Bruckner's 8th and getting that profound experience - I'm experiencing Bruckner's 8th and it turns out I hate it.

The good news is that Bruckner's music will always be there for me to return to when I want to try again. Like I said, maybe you need more musical experience, more knowledge of the musical context of Bruckner's times, or maybe it's not music someone without spirituality can appreciate, or it might simply be music you have to be a certain age, with a certain amount of lived experience to appreciate. And it'll always be there when I want to try again. Meanwhile, no sense trying again and again when there's so much else out there!

edit) it's like a math problem you can't solve- sometimes the best method is to walk away and do something else, and come back to it after a while


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

HenryPenfold said:


> Anything by Sibelius or Brahms


Are you attempting to one-up our resident wise guy, Couchie? I never say no because I don't want to deny myself discoveries that might chip away at my blind spots.


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

I will give anything a try, and by try I mean spending a decent amount of time investigating a composer or genre or period. But I find myself consistently listening to a relatively small, but eclectic, group of composers. I also will abandon a genre, like opera for years only to come back to it with enthusiasm now and again. This is true for other kinds of music or composers I've temporarily abandoned in the past.

I don't ever say "no" to any kind of music.


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## fluteman (Dec 7, 2015)

I have a list, mostly from my childhood and teen bands and orchestras:

Elgar, Pomp and Circumstance March no. 1.
Grieg, Peer Gynt Suite no. 1.
J. Strauss II, Tritsch Trasch Polka
Verdi, March from Aida
Weinberger, Schwanda the Bagpiper Polka and Fugue
Schubert, Symphony no. 8, "Unfinished", March Militaire
Wagner, March of the Meistersingers
Anderson, The Syncopated Clock, Sleigh Ride
Pachelbel, Canon in D
Mozart, Serenade in G
von Suppe, Morning, Noon and Night in Vienna, Light Cavalry Overture

I have to stop here, the memories are too traumatic.


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

fbjim said:


> edit) it's like a math problem you can't solve- sometimes the best method is to walk away and do something else, and come back to it after a while


That is exactly right. It is what I do. But I do find that I sort of know when I am ready to return to something I have tried and failed to like.


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## Brahmsian Colors (Sep 16, 2016)

Merl said:


> The whole being of this thread is inflammatory so there's little point in feeling offended as someone will undoubtedly stand on your toes by saying they loathe something you love. There's times you need to just smile, even if you dont agree. For example, I said I dont like opera sung in English and have a particular dislike for Peter Grimes but I know others on here love it (eg Henry). I didn't write that to have a go at Henry, and he knows that, or anyone else. I wrote it as it's something I dislike. Likewise I may feel differently about Brahms' and Sibelius' music. I'm sure Henry et al aren't sat at home plotting revenge or crying into their late night/early morning coffee. Personally, I'm still laughing at EG's "... The sound of the lute especially brings me out in a rash." Whether I agree or not that was funny. :lol:


Very well stated Merl. I too can't see blowing a gasket each time I notice a critical comment being made about a favorite work or composer of mine.


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## fbjim (Mar 8, 2021)

fluteman said:


> I have a list, mostly from my childhood and teen bands and orchestras:
> 
> Schubert, Symphony no. 8, "Unfinished"
> 
> I have to stop here, the memories are too traumatic.


If only Schubert had written the Unfinished to be more virtuosic, then maybe youth orchestras wouldn't play it to death!

(see also: the Dvorak 9th, which I also played all the time)


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## Neo Romanza (May 7, 2013)

I think it’s important to understand that everyone has their own preferences. Saying ‘no’ to a particular composer may seem like you’re closing the door on a something that could give you pleasure later on, but rather I believe that it opens up the idea that one simply can’t like everything one hears and I think it’s important to figure out where you stand as a listener. In the spirit of this thread, I say ‘no' to a lot of composers: almost all of the Renaissance and Baroque composers (never cared for this period of classical music and never will), most operatic music with some notable exceptions and last, and certainly not least, most, if not all, contemporary classical music I’ve heard (here, too, there are some exceptions, but I’ve been disappointed by much of today’s music).


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

Neo Romanza said:


> I think it's important to understand that everyone has their own preferences. Saying 'no' to a particular composer may seem like you're closing the door on a something that could give you pleasure later on, but rather I believe that it opens up the idea that one simply can't like everything one hears and I think it's important to figure out were you stand as a listener. In the spirit of this thread, I say 'no' to a lot of composers: almost all of the Renaissance and Baroque composers (never cared for this period of classical music and never will), most operatic music with some notable exceptions and last, and certainly not least, most, if not all, contemporary classical music I've heard (here, too, there are some exceptions, but I've been disappointed by much of today's music).


While I agree with your post, my attitude is somewhat different: I don't feel any need to make definitive judgments about any composer, period, genre, or style. I listen to what I choose and although for the most part I have identified the music I know I enjoy, there is no reason to write off any music. I prefer keeping all my options open.


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## fluteman (Dec 7, 2015)

fbjim said:


> If only Schubert had written the Unfinished to be more virtuosic, then maybe youth orchestras wouldn't play it to death!
> 
> (see also: the Dvorak 9th, which I also played all the time)


That may be. But for me the problem there wasn't just playing it all the time, but also hearing it all the time. I mourned the loss of classical radio, until something better, i.e., streaming, finally came along. I no longer ever have to listen to "classical hits" again unless I want to. And the selections on my list safely can be avoided.


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## strawa (Apr 1, 2020)

As I understand the thread, there are different types of no. There are many who are no's from exhaustion, especially with not very interesting and overly played/recorded music. I have this type with Tchaikovsky's Piano Concerto 1 and the Violin Concerto. There are also those that are not my style, those I can even understand the appeal, one passage/movement or another caught my attention, but the prospect of listening for an hour or more scares me, like Carl Orff. Maybe one day, with the right interpretation, I will appreciate since it happened before. Now, in the sense of having already given up on assimilating, I don't know. In my experience I had an aversion/boredom towards some composers that I later came to admire, from Lully to Feldman, from Sweelinck to John Adams.

On second thought, there is a composer I find myself saying no. As a teenager I listened Bartok's Sonata for Two Pianos and Percussion for the first time at a concert and I felt sick, physically. It was really the surprise, the lack of habit. As I got to know more, the hungarian became one of my favorites. But this is an inverse case, where first I was indifferent, and the more I know the more I react badly: Boulez. Not only the music, also his ideas, what he represents in the musical history, even his work as a conductor I tend to listen to less and less over the years.


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## Fabulin (Jun 10, 2019)

With rare exceptions, music before Mozart.


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## Chilham (Jun 18, 2020)

So far, very little has grated with me. Ives maybe. The very little of Ferneyhough that I've listened to.

I do struggle to appreciate a lot of Piano Concertos as much as others seem to. Piano Sonatas? Love the vast majority. Piano Trios? Very nice. Piano Quartets and Quintets? Fine. Piano Concertos? "Stop hitting the piano keys so damned hard!". :lol:


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## Sequentia (Nov 23, 2011)

Richannes Wrahms said:


> Almost if not the entire output of Sorabji and Brian, I don't think I need to explain this one.


Well, I for one will be happy to take you to task for the lack of explanation. What have you heard of Sorabji (it would be impressive if you were familiar with the works of his that have yet to be performed) and what bothers you about his music?


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## Littlephrase (Nov 28, 2018)

Anything by Xenakis.


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## mossyembankment (Jul 28, 2020)

Chilham said:


> So far, very little has grated with me. Ives maybe. The very little of Ferneyhough that I've listened to.
> 
> I do struggle to appreciate a lot of Piano Concertos as much as others seem to. Piano Sonatas? Love the vast majority. Piano Trios? Very nice. Piano Quartets and Quintets? Fine. Piano Concertos? "Stop hitting the piano keys so damned hard!". :lol:


thoughts on this performance? try the second movement...


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## Chilham (Jun 18, 2020)

I'll check it out later.


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## Chilham (Jun 18, 2020)

mossyembankment said:


> thoughts on this performance? try the second movement...


Delightful.

I have both Pierre-Laurent Aimard and Maria João Pires, but this is much more to my taste. She's not competing with the orchestra.

I don't dislike Piano Concertos per se. I just find it wearing when pianists thrash the hell out the keyboard.


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

allaroundmusicenthusiast said:


> I share this sentiment. I think, Bach notwithstanding, baroque music is the worst music ever made in the West. Yes, there are some great and original composers, Monteverdi, Purcell, Rameau, Couperin, and Bach of course (although perhaps my favourite Bach works are not everyone elses, the masses and passions I can do without really, and please no concertos)... And I'm surely forgetting some others. But everything after the end of the 16th century is just so uninspiring in general. For me music really got something back with Mozart and Franz Haydn's late works (especially his last set of quartets). From then on, in my opinion, we've been riding a good wave.


My view is that there have been good waves in every century.

By the way, I tend to love baroque trumpet works and Haydn's trumpet concerto - yummy.


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## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

allaroundmusicenthusiast said:


> I share this sentiment. I think, Bach notwithstanding, baroque music is the worst music ever made in the West. Yes, there are some great and original composers, Monteverdi, Purcell, Rameau, Couperin, and Bach of course (although perhaps my favourite Bach works are not everyone elses, the masses and passions I can do without really, and please no concertos)... And I'm surely forgetting some others. But everything after the end of the 16th century is just so uninspiring in general. For me music really got something back with Mozart and Franz Haydn's late works (especially his last set of quartets). From then on, in my opinion, we've been riding a good wave.


I think it is a bit unfortunate that 150 years are subsumed under the baroque label because Dowland or Monteverdi are rather different from Telemann or Rameau but I'd probably tend to the opposite that during this age the "average" level of European music was extraordinarily high. Sure, there was a lot of "generic" music but we mostly don't listen to this anyway. I'd also say that it is the first "modern music" in a way; of course there are fans of medieval and renaissance music but it has remained quite niche not only compared to Bach and Handel but also to Monteverdi, Schütz and Dowland.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

Bulldog said:


> By the way, I tend to love baroque trumpet works and Haydn's trumpet concerto - yummy.


I take this to mean "baroque trumpet works and Haydn's trumpet concerto are dog food"


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## BobBrines (Jun 14, 2018)

I find it interesting that Haydn picked the keyed trumpet for his last concerto and Mozart picked the clarinet for his.


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## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

BobBrines said:


> I find it interesting that Haydn picked the keyed trumpet for his last concerto and Mozart picked the clarinet for his.


Both written for specific artists and occasions, AFAIK. Haydn had not written a concert for quite some time (unless one counts the sinfonia concertante #105) and he could probably guess that it would be his last concerto. 
But Mozart probably could not guess his early demise and might have written another dozen piano concerti had he lived longer. Stadler was a friend and I think Mozart had also plans for a concert (Akademie) together with him, thus the clarinet concert.

My mother loved the trumpet so we had a bunch of LPs and besides popular fluff and baroque stuff also the Haydn trumpet concerto as well so it must have been one of the earlier classical pieces I encountered. There is nothing wrong with it and it might even be my favorite Haydn concerto.


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## allaroundmusicenthusiast (Jun 3, 2020)

Kreisler jr said:


> I think it is a bit unfortunate that 150 years are subsumed under the baroque label because Dowland or Monteverdi are rather different from Telemann or Rameau but I'd probably tend to the opposite that during this age the "average" level of European music was extraordinarily high. Sure, there was a lot of "generic" music but we mostly don't listen to this anyway. I'd also say that it is the first "modern music" in a way; of course there are fans of medieval and renaissance music but it has remained quite niche not only compared to Bach and Handel but also to Monteverdi, Schütz and Dowland.


Schütz, that's one of the composers I forgot about. But I disagree with your general statement. Yes, it's unfortunate that baroque goes from Monteverdi to Bach and every one in between, but while of course there are great exponents of this music, even they wrote formulaic music, it's hard to distinguish composers, especially when it comes to music with several instruments (sonatas, concertos, operas are really just boring, except for Purcell and Monteverdi). And you can say there were always great composers in every period of music, that's just what I was getting at: the average during baroque was at its lowest point ever. I know people think that that's the case for the las 70 years since the end of WW2, or perhaps just from the 70s, but to me, baroque represents most of the things I can't stand in music. And with all of this I mean no disrespect to lovers of baroque, again, I enjoy a lot of baroque music.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

BobBrines said:


> I find it interesting that Haydn picked the keyed trumpet for his last concerto and Mozart picked the clarinet for his.


It's also interesting none of the later concertos of Joseph Haydn surpass this:




Btw, the cellist guy's hair looks like a wig.

Also btw, other "parallels" I've seen people talking about are Joseph Haydn's F minor variations for piano and Mozart's F minor fantasies for organ, both of which are the respective composers' late works.


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## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

allaroundmusicenthusiast said:


> Schütz, that's one of the composers I forgot about. But I disagree with your general statement. Yes, it's unfortunate that baroque goes from Monteverdi to Bach and every one in between, but while of course there are great exponents of this music, even they wrote formulaic music, it's hard to distinguish composers, especially when it comes to music with several instruments (sonatas, concertos, operas are really just boring, except for Purcell and Monteverdi). And you can say there were always great composers in every period of music, that's just what I was getting at: the average during baroque was at its lowest point ever.


I don't disagree in that music could be formulaic but this is the case certainly in Viennese classicism as well and also in the 19th century. And I don't think it is such a damning feature if the average level is as high as it was in the baroque era. Even disregarding contested music of the second half of the 20th century, there is lots of music from the gallant/early classical style (1730-60s) and from the late classical/early romanticism (1800-1830s, and virtuoso concertos of mid/late 19th century) that is as formulaic as baroque (only longer and often without the high compositional level). And while I don't know much about it, I bet the average/typical renaissance polyphony is rather formulaic as well.

And baroque brought us all the main features of later music. Opera is a child of the baroque, there were songs, such as Dowland's that rival Schubert's in personal expression (admittedly that genre waned in between), instrumental and vocal virtuosity was pushed to another level that could then be taken for granted, the concerto was invented and sonata, prelude, concerto were established on their own, removed from the connection with vocal works.


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## allaroundmusicenthusiast (Jun 3, 2020)

Kreisler jr said:


> I don't disagree in that music could be formulaic but this is the case certainly in Viennese classicism as well and also in the 19th century. And I don't think it is such a damning feature if the average level is as high as it was in the baroque era. Even disregarding contested music of the second half of the 20th century, there is lots of music from the gallant/early classical style (1730-60s) and from the late classical/early romanticism (1800-1830s, and virtuoso concertos of mid/late 19th century) that is as formulaic as baroque (only longer and often without the high compositional level). And while I don't know much about it, I bet the average/typical renaissance polyphony is rather formulaic as well.
> 
> And baroque brought us all the main features of later music. Opera is a child of the baroque, there were songs, such as Dowland's that rival Schubert's in personal expression (admittedly that genre waned in between), instrumental and vocal virtuosity was pushed to another level that could then be taken for granted, the concerto was invented and sonata, prelude, concerto were established on their own, removed from the connection with vocal works.


All of your second paragraph is true, although I don't agree about Dowland rivaling Schubert, neither about vocal virtuosity, in any case, a certain kind of singing was established. The thing about formulas in your first paragraph, yes it's true, at the end of the most music is formulaic, the question is how much enjoyment do we derive from these formulas. And in my personal opinion, the formulas of the baroque are, to put it succintly, the most boring and unappealing ever. Also, in my first comment I said that music got something back, a certain inspiration and power to inspire, with the *late* works of FJ Haydn (although Michael was rather good too, and he has some great works), not his earlier pieces which are very boring, most of his symphonies are the same piece over and over following the same structure and only changing the key; and Mozart. These two are not gallant composers.


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## pianozach (May 21, 2018)

david johnson said:


> I mostly dislike rap.


A month or two ago I created a Youtube playlist of the most famous rap artists, generally cueing up the first three tracks of their first albums. I included Kanye, Snoop, Jay-Z, Tupac, Notorious BIG, Tupac, Dr. Dre, and the like.

It was a very difficult listen. What I gathered from my listen is that melody is superfluous, repetition in the backing is king, they rarely have any skills on an actual musical instrument, and the lyrical content must have as many appearances of the word n*gg*r and ****** and f**ker and Motherf*****r as possible. They seem to love to namecheck themselves frequently, and love to rap about b!tches, and their own sexual expoits.

Speaking of the repetitious backing bed, it often will include some sort of annoying repeated sound used as a rhythmic component.

There. I said it.

Did I miss anything?


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## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

pianozach said:


> A month or two ago I created a Youtube playlist of the most famous rap artists, generally cueing up the first three tracks of their first albums. I included Kanye, Snoop, Jay-Z, Tupac, Notorious BIG, Tupac, Dr. Dre, and the like.
> 
> It was a very difficult listen. What I gathered from my listen is that melody is superfluous, repetition in the backing is king, they rarely have any skills on an actual musical instrument, and the lyrical content must have as many appearances of the word n*gg*r and ****** and f**ker and Motherf*****r as possible. They seem to love to namecheck themselves frequently, and love to rap about b!tches, and their own sexual expoits.
> 
> ...


Not really. I'm in the middle of a black music listening project from the 50s to the early 80s which has only reinforced my opinion that much which passes for black music today is little more than tuneless computer-generated garbage which sounds like it was knocked out in about half an hour by a teenage imbecile.


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## Azol (Jan 25, 2015)

pianozach said:


> Did I miss anything?


You were very thorough in your description, please spare us any further details


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## mossyembankment (Jul 28, 2020)

pianozach said:


> A month or two ago I created a Youtube playlist of the most famous rap artists, generally cueing up the first three tracks of their first albums. I included Kanye, Snoop, Jay-Z, Tupac, Notorious BIG, Tupac, Dr. Dre, and the like.
> 
> It was a very difficult listen. What I gathered from my listen is that melody is superfluous, repetition in the backing is king, they rarely have any skills on an actual musical instrument, and the lyrical content must have as many appearances of the word n*gg*r and ****** and f**ker and Motherf*****r as possible. They seem to love to namecheck themselves frequently, and love to rap about b!tches, and their own sexual expoits.
> 
> ...


No, it's pretty clear who you are and where you're coming from.


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

pianozach said:


> Did I miss anything?


Yes: what makes Hip-hop one of the most creative musical expressions in the last 50 years.


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## pianozach (May 21, 2018)

mossyembankment said:


> No, it's pretty clear who you are and where you're coming from.


:lol:

...............


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## pianozach (May 21, 2018)

SanAntone said:


> Yes: what makes Hip-hop one of the most creative musical expressions in the last 50 years.


I was actually under the impression that Hip Hop and Rap were two different genres.

I figured that that the songs that sound like mashups of Hip Hop and Rap were actually mashups of Hip Hop and Rap.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

david johnson said:


> I mostly dislike rap.





pianozach said:


> A month or two ago I created a Youtube playlist of the most famous rap artists, generally cueing up the first three tracks of their first albums. I included Kanye, Snoop, Jay-Z, Tupac, Notorious BIG, Tupac, Dr. Dre, and the like.
> It was a very difficult listen. What I gathered from my listen is that melody is superfluous, repetition in the backing is king, they rarely have any skills on an actual musical instrument, and the lyrical content must have as many appearances of the word n*gg*r and ****** and f**ker and Motherf*****r as possible. They seem to love to namecheck themselves frequently, and love to rap about b!tches, and their own sexual expoits.
> Speaking of the repetitious backing bed, it often will include some sort of annoying repeated sound used as a rhythmic component.
> There. I said it.
> Did I miss anything?





SanAntone said:


> Yes: what makes Hip-hop one of the most creative musical expressions in the last 50 years.





pianozach said:


> I was actually under the impression that Hip Hop and Rap were two different genres.
> I figured that that the songs that sound like mashups of Hip Hop and Rap were actually mashups of Hip Hop and Rap.


<That non-classical music which you just, "no".>


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## Tristan (Jan 5, 2013)

Any music that I've tried and don't like. 

And that's all I'm going to say because I'm not interested in an argument.


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## 59540 (May 16, 2021)

Ralph Vaughan Williams, Frederick Delius, Arnold Bax


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## fbjim (Mar 8, 2021)

Any contemporary classical music purported to be "inspired by" a recent tragedy. Especially symphonies.


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## advokat (Aug 16, 2020)

All atonal music. Most of the "modern" music, expecially by American composers, with some French composers such as Puolenc and Duruflé (and some English, such as Delius, and some Russians, such as certain works by Schnittke, and some Italians) excepted. But then, the named exceptions are so good that they probably do not classify as moderns. They certainly do not have the same ideological provenance as the bulk of the modern music. Baroque and classical and most of the romantic composers work for me best, since they tame music by tying it down to form and thus making music civilised and benign. And, of course, the love of my life, pre-baroque composers.


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## AndorFoldes (Aug 25, 2012)

Clairvoyance Enough said:


> When it comes to orchestral music at least, I cannot stand non-HIP recordings anymore. I love Neville Marriner's Handel, Haydn, and Mozart, but I just can't listen to it. It sounds like the music is being played at the bottom of a pool in the next room, the aural equivalent of spilling a water jug on a fresh watercolor painting and then playing tic-tac-toe on it with the largest available brushes. Why does it sound so heavy and blurry and ugly? I can't do it.


This is interesting. Could you mention some specific Marriner recordings that you think sound heavy, blurry and ugly?


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## mossyembankment (Jul 28, 2020)

I haven't yet figured out how to appreciate any of the major Russian composers other than Tchaikovsky, and maybe certain Prokofiev - the harshness and tension of Rachmaninoff and Scriabin, Stravinsky, etc., is a bit lost on me as I don't really see the point. Besides that, symphonic works in general rarely click for me, though I often like concertos.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

mossyembankment said:


> I haven't yet figured out how to appreciate any of the major Russian composers other than Tchaikovsky, and maybe certain Prokofiev - the harshness and tension of Rachmaninoff and Scriabin, Stravinsky, etc.


try these (they might "help" you to appreciate the composers more):


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## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

fbjim said:


> Any contemporary classical music purported to be "inspired by" a recent tragedy. Especially symphonies.


Do you have an example? 
I am not aware of any such music in the last decades (there are of course some musical memorials to WW II or other mid-20th century atrocities but that's hardly recent...)


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

Kreisler jr said:


> Do you have an example?
> I am not aware of any such music in the last decades (there are of course some musical memorials to WW II or other mid-20th century atrocities but that's hardly recent...)


Corigliano - Symphony #1 - written for friends, victim who suffered and died from AIDs.... Good piece, very effective...


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## fbjim (Mar 8, 2021)

Kreisler jr said:


> Do you have an example?
> I am not aware of any such music in the last decades (there are of course some musical memorials to WW II or other mid-20th century atrocities but that's hardly recent...)


one of the latest recording premiers of the Seattle Symphony is a symphony written "in response" to a recent mass shooting.

the most famous example is probably John Adams' "On the transmigration of souls" - I just tend to really dislike this kind of thing instinctively.


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## sfrobcurry (Jul 30, 2021)

I would second the nomination for the Missa Solemnis being his greatest work….I may be wrong in my recollection, but I seem to recall reading, many years ago, that Beethoven himself regarded it as his best work…but don’t quote me on that!


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## Jay (Jul 21, 2014)

Generally, 1750-1900.


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## Richard8655 (Feb 19, 2016)

Most Russian composers, especially Tchaikovsky and others from the Romantic period, not so much. Though Shostakovich works very well for me.


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## pianozach (May 21, 2018)

mossyembankment said:


> I haven't yet figured out how to appreciate any of the major Russian composers other than Tchaikovsky, and maybe certain Prokofiev - the harshness and tension of Rachmaninoff and Scriabin, Stravinsky, etc., is a bit lost on me as I don't really see the point. Besides that, symphonic works in general rarely click for me, though I often like concertos.


I suggest *Alexander Borodin*'s *In the Steppes of Central Asia* [1880]

In 1880, Tchaikovsky had just finished writing *Romeo and Juliet*, his *Piano Concerto No. 2*, the *1812 Overture, Symphony No. 2,* and the *Italian Capriccio*.

A contemporary of Tchaikovsky (1840-1893), Borodin (1833-1887) was born 7 years earlier, and died 6 years before Tchaikovsky.


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## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

I react badly when I hear this on the Classical radio, and when I hear it played in the house. I came to terms with it by changing a few notes around yesterday.


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## Xisten267 (Sep 2, 2018)

I don't think I would definitetely say _no_ to any piece of classical music, even those by composers who are not my cup of tea such as Ketèlbey or Cage, as I like to think that I'm open to reconsider my positions with time. If the lyrics of a composition are about illegal or totally immoral issues such as white supremacy, sex with minors, apology of use of drugs etc. I won't want to hear it, but I'm not aware of anything like that in classical.


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## Wilhelm Theophilus (Aug 8, 2020)

Xisten267 said:


> If the lyrics of a composition are about...white supremacy, sex with minors... I won't want to hear it


Does such music exist?


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

Of course it does. And *no examples in the thread *please.


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## Krummhorn (Feb 18, 2007)

It took me awhile to get comfortable with Messiaen ... his organ works are sublime. I listen to those in a darkened room and let the music flow into my heart and soul.

Hindemith on the other hand ... for me, meh ... except for is organ sonata II, which I have played in concerts.


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## Dan Ante (May 4, 2016)

If a composition has melody, structure that I can understand, rhythm and is acoustical then at worst I can listen to it, but unfortunately a lot (not all) so called modern music has no melody and resembles a monkey chasing a mouse over a keyboard then I am not interested, the same applies to electronically produced (music) and I refuse to name the so called composers. I realise this will infuriate certain members but it is my opinion “right or wrong” and I rely on freedom of free speech not to be banned…


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## golfer72 (Jan 27, 2018)

TwoFlutesOneTrumpet said:


> Count me among those who willingly subjects to Brahms' trash and enjoys every minute. I will never understand how one cannot appreciate Brahms' music but I guess we all have our blind spots.


Agree. Calling it trash is just plain dumb


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