# Don't you think singers who can compose are bigger than ordinary singers who can't?



## atsizat (Sep 14, 2015)

Don't you think singers who can compose music are bigger than ordinary singers who can't compose music and all they can do is sing somebody's composition as we call it arrangement?

Composing takes a musical skill.

Too many people sing. How many can compose?


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## Serge (Mar 25, 2010)

Huh? Could you define "bigger" and "ordinary" for the purpose of the thread, please? Meanwhile, food for thought, perhaps...

Can't help falling in love (Stereo) - Diana Ankudinova


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## atsizat (Sep 14, 2015)

Serge said:


> Huh? Could you define "bigger" and "ordinary" for the purpose of the thread, please? Meanwhile, food for thought, perhaps...
> 
> Can't help falling in love (Stereo) - Diana Ankudinova


Bigger singer is bigger ( greater) than ordinary singer.

Ordinary singer is majority of singers who can't compose one single piece. All he or she does is record compositions of others.

Queen, for instance, composed music. I gave a known example.

Are you seeing those who can compose at the same level with those who can't compose one single piece?


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

I've always favored singers who can write their own material. Otherwise, to me, they seem to be nothing more than interchangeable corporate products.


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## Serge (Mar 25, 2010)

I didn't know queen composed music... Does she sing as well, haha? But seriously though, I think this thread is a little confused, if not outright childish. Queen, say, is a band, not a singer. Of course, we know that Freddy Mercury fronted that band and wrote many of its songs, on the other hand, he wasn't the only one composing and otherwise working on its material. And you are suggesting, what exactly, that he'd be a lesser singer if he didn't write any songs? I don't quite subscribe to that view, to be honest, but he'd probably be seen as less of a musician, and I'd agree with that. Or take say Bob Dylan who wrote truckloads of songs. Is he proportionally such a great singer as he is a songwriter?


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

Singers who are great stylists but don't write their material include Frank Sinatra, Tony Bennett, Barbra Streisand, as well as, Joe Williams, Ella Fitzgerald, Sarah Vaughan, Carmen McCrae, Louis Armstrong, and many, many, more. 

Songwriters who don't sing include almost all of the Great American Songbook, as well as Leiber and Stoller, and most of the Brill Building writers. While Jimmy Webb has made some records singing his own songs, they were all originally recorded and became hits by Glen Campbell, the 5th Dimension, Richard Harris - all singers who don't write. Some of the greatest songwriters you'e probably never heard of, but have had success in Nashville, L.A. and NYC - and these songwriters are professionals who have mastered the craft of writing the commercial Pop or Country song: Hugh Prestwood, Bob McDill, Tony Arata, Jules Shear, Craig Wiseman, Dennis Lynne, Tom Kelly, and Billy Steinberg.

Singer-Songwriters were a phenomenon of the late '60s and especially the '70s, Joni Mitchell, James Taylor, and Jackson Browne. These are of least interest to me since their songs are personal, often quirky, and are not the kind of song a novice writer should study in order to learn the craft of songwriting. For that you should study those in my 2nd paragraph.

There is greatness in all of these kinds of performers and writers, so I don't put much stock in the OP premise.


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## arpeggio (Oct 4, 2012)

^^^^^

What do you know of Max Martin and Dr. Luke (Lukasz Gottwald). I have read that these two have composed most of the top pop tunes in the past decade.

I have read that Max Martin has composed or co-composed:

"I Kissed a Girl"
"Baby One More Time"
"California Gurls"
"Shake It Off"
"Since You Have Been Gone"


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

arpeggio said:


> ^^^^^
> 
> What do you know of Max Martin and Dr. Luke (Lukasz Gottwald). I have read that these two have composed most of the top pop tunes in the past decade.
> 
> ...


I don't know much about the Pop songwriters of this generation since my time has been spent in Nashville and some in L.A. with almost an exclusive focus on the Country market.

But from the '20s through the '60s popular music was divided between the singers and the songwriters and it was only really after the Beatles and the self-contained bands who wrote their own material and then the singer-songwriters of the '70s that the landscape changed. There has also been the producer-songwriter that is prevalent in Hip-Hop and R&B going back to Motown, Stax, Atlantic, and Muscle Shoals until the present.


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## jegreenwood (Dec 25, 2015)

SanAntone said:


> Singers who are great stylists but don't write their material include Frank Sinatra, Tony Bennett, Barbra Streisand, as well as, Joe Williams, Ella Fitzgerald, Sarah Vaughan, Carmen McCrae, Louis Armstrong, and many, many, more.
> 
> Songwriters who don't sing include almost all of the Great American Songbook, as well as Leiber and Stoller, and most of the Brill Building writers. While Jimmy Webb has made some records singing his own songs, they were all originally recorded and became hits by Glen Campbell, the 5th Dimension, Richard Harris - all singers who don't write. Some of the greatest songwriters you'e probably never heard of, but have had success in Nashville, L.A. and NYC - and these songwriters are professionals who have mastered the craft of writing the commercial Pop or Country song: Hugh Prestwood, Bob McDill, Tony Arata, Jules Shear, Craig Wiseman, Dennis Lynne, Tom Kelly, and Billy Steinberg.
> 
> ...


Don't agree about singer/songwriters, but otherwise right on.


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## Tarneem (Jan 3, 2022)

I love it when a singer writes or compose his/her own songs. it makes the art more mysterious. But perhaps the problem nowadays is that a lot of songs are too canned. it feels like I'm consuming a soda or a ramen. I miss the good old days when a song used to introduce not by an album but live on stage. 

For me an extraordinary singer is the one who can perform life. And who is able to keep the attention of the audience and has the ability to surprise them.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

EdwardBast said:


> I've always favored singers who can write their own material. Otherwise, to me, they seem to be nothing more than interchangeable corporate products.


The same can be said for many writing their own songs. But why shouldn't great interpreters of song be valued?


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

jegreenwood said:


> Don't agree about singer/songwriters, but otherwise right on.


Don't get me wrong I am a huge fan of singer-songwriters, the ones I mentioned as well as many others. But there is a difference in the kind of song they write and a good commercial song. And by "commercial" I don't mean worthless artistically, but one that has wide appeal while still maintaining high standards.

One of the first music people I met when I moved to Nashville in 1988 was Ralph Murphy. At that time he was working at ASCAP in writer relations. He told me something after listening to a few of my songs, he said, "those are good 'singer-songwriter' type songs, but they won't sell in Nashville."

He expanded on why, saying that they were what he called "ten o'clock songs", i.e. songs that people loved when they heard them at ten at night, usually after having a drink or two. He said Nashville is looking for songs that people love at seven in the morning, i.e. songs that grab your attention and hold it when you haven't had something to drink, you aren't feeling moody or dreamy, but are on your way to a job you probably don't like.

The ideal Nashville song is tight and well-written, each line relates to the title or theme, no wasted words, and sometimes they are even artsy. But they are not inward-looking, or so personal that the average guy can't image himself feeling or saying the lines of the song. And musically they are simple but not trite (although there are plenty of those too, "ditties" we called them).

I didn't aim to be that kind of songwriter, although I did co-write within that context.

But if you want to learn how to write a commercial, well-written song, don't try to emulate Joni Mitchell or James Taylor, look instead to Harlan Howard, Dallas Frazier, Bobby Braddock, Troy Seals, Max D. Barnes, Sanger D. "******" Shafer, Richard Leigh, Guy Clark, or Bob McDill.


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## HenryPenfold (Apr 29, 2018)

Serge said:


> I didn't know queen composed music... Does she sing as well, haha? But seriously though, I think this thread is a little confused, if not outright childish. Queen, say, is a band, not a singer. Of course, we know that Freddy Mercury fronted that band and wrote many of its songs, on the other hand, he wasn't the only one composing and otherwise working on its material. And you are suggesting, what exactly, that he'd be a lesser singer if he didn't write any songs? I don't quite subscribe to that view, to be honest, but he'd probably be seen as less of a musician, and I'd agree with that. Or take say Bob Dylan who wrote truckloads of songs. Is he proportionally such a great singer as he is a songwriter?


I suspect atsizat's English is better than your Turkish. So maybe stop taking the píss ......


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## Serge (Mar 25, 2010)

HenryPenfold said:


> I suspect atsizat's English is better than your Turkish. So maybe stop taking the píss ......


What this has to do with his English or my Turkish? (And I ain't too proud of my English either, which I consider limited; I just use it the best I can, that's all.) It's the premise of the thread that is suspect - to me anyway. Are singers who write their songs bigger that ordinary singers who don't? Is this it really, or is there a catch there that I missed? What about those who are lousy singers and still perform their own songs? Are they bigger? And what about those singers who are accomplished vocal artists but don't compose (hence the sample that I gave), are they ordinary and somehow inferior to the former ones? Fascinating... But you know, perhaps there is a singer called Queen who also composes that I didn't know about and that everybody should be discussing here now. Or perhaps he meant Prince, which would make better sense, I think, who knows...


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

starthrower said:


> The same can be said for many writing their own songs. But why shouldn't great interpreters of song be valued?


Who said they shouldn't be valued? Not me. I implied that _I _tend not to value them much, which is something else altogether.

Great interpreters of songs should be valued. I value more highly those who write great songs.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

EdwardBast said:


> Who said they shouldn't be valued? Not me. I implied that _I _tend not to value them much, which is something else altogether.
> 
> Great interpreters of songs should be valued. I value more highly those who write great songs.


We've got this huge catalog of great popular songs written over the past 50-60 years. I'm wondering how many will be performed after the original singer/songwriters have passed on? We know Dylan songs will continue to be performed because they've been covered since the 60s. But I suppose the others will be frozen on records in their familiar performances for all time.

Who are the great young songwriters of today? I haven't been keeping up.


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

starthrower said:


> We've got this huge catalog of great popular songs written over the past 50-60 years. I'm wondering how many will be performed after the original singer/songwriters have passed on? We know Dylan songs will continue to be performed because they've been covered since the 60s. But I suppose the others will be frozen on records in their familiar performances for all time.
> 
> Who are the great young songwriters of today? I haven't been keeping up.


*Anais Mitchell* is a well respected songwriter; she recently had a concept album she wrote in 2010 go to Broadway as a musical, _Hadestown_. Brandi Carlile, Jason Isbell, Hayes Carll, Iris DeMent, Sturgill Simpson, Peter Bradley Adams, Imogen Heap, are a few songwriters I can think of - but they all perform their own songs. I like a couple of songwriters *Anna Tivel* and *Diana Jones* that are not that well known.

Also, these days production is so much a part of song writing that it a somewhat different landscape. But good songs will continue to be recorded for years to come.


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

starthrower said:


> We've got this huge catalog of great popular songs written over the past 50-60 years. I'm wondering how many will be performed after the original singer/songwriters have passed on? We know Dylan songs will continue to be performed because they've been covered since the 60s. *But I suppose the others will be frozen on records in their familiar performances for all time. *
> 
> Who are the great young songwriters of today? I haven't been keeping up.


I haven't been keeping up either.

I don't know. Lots of prog rock, which is my main interest in "popular" music, is being covered and performed by "school of rock" ensembles and it seems a fair amount has been notated. Who knows what tomorrow holds?


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## jegreenwood (Dec 25, 2015)

oops - duplicate post


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## jegreenwood (Dec 25, 2015)

arpeggio said:


> . . . .
> 
> What do you know of Max Martin and Dr. Luke (Lukasz Gottwald). I have read that these two have composed most of the top pop tunes in the past decade. . . .





starthrower said:


> We've got this huge catalog of great popular songs written over the past 50-60 years. I'm wondering how many will be performed after the original singer/songwriters have passed on? We know Dylan songs will continue to be performed because they've been covered since the 60s. But I suppose the others will be frozen on records in their familiar performances for all time.
> 
> Who are the great young songwriters of today? I haven't been keeping up.


Here's a cover of a Max Martin tune, by one of my favorite singer-songwriters, whose career goes back almost as far as Dylan's. I only wish YouTube didn't display the song title, so it would come as a surprise.






By the way, the video was made about 15 years ago. Thompson might have omitted his description of Britney Spears if it was recorded recently. (Or maybe not.)


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

^^^
That's a song from his 1000 Years of Popular Music album.

The idea for the project began when Rolling Stone asked a number of artists for a list of their favorite songs "of all time" and Thompson took them at their word and submitted a list of songs from the middles to ages to the year 2000 or so. The lame rag didn't publish his list. But an album and DVD was produced.


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## jegreenwood (Dec 25, 2015)

starthrower said:


> ^^^
> That's a song from his 1000 Years of Popular Music album.
> 
> The idea for the project began when Rolling Stone asked a number of artists for a list of their favorite songs "of all time" and Thompson took them at their word and submitted a list of songs from the middles to ages to the year 2000 or so. The lame rag didn't publish his list. But an album and DVD was produced.


I've seen Thompson live several times, but never that program. And I don't read many rock memoirs, but I did read his - about the earliest days in his career, mostly with Fairport Convention.


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## Eva Yojimbo (Jan 30, 2016)

arpeggio said:


> ^^^^^
> 
> What do you know of Max Martin and Dr. Luke (Lukasz Gottwald). I have read that these two have composed most of the top pop tunes in the past decade.
> 
> ...


Martin is only behind Lennon and McCartney for having written the most #1 Billboard songs. I often say to those who think writing pop songs is easy that if it was so easy there would be more people like Max Martin, and there demonstrably are not. Martin has spoken before about how he (and his co-writers) will often spend weeks working on a melody to get it perfect, often resulting in it being in its simplest form. He's also an acknowledge master of production, something he taught himself. Rick Beato even did a video on his production techniques for Ariana Grande's Into You. What I find interesting about him is how often the complexity of the production is juxtaposed against the simplicity of the melodic and harmonic elements, and it actually helps the latter "pop" out by contrast. But he can also strip everything back when a song calls for it, like with Shake It Off (which is equally as much Swift's song as Martin; Martin has said before she typically comes to him with most of the song already written, and he just aids in production), where the vocals and sax stand out against the sparseness of the (very distinctive) beat.


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## Eva Yojimbo (Jan 30, 2016)

starthrower said:


> Who are the great young songwriters of today? I haven't been keeping up.


 While there are many, I was surprised that the first that came to my mind was Joanna Newsom, perhaps because she's the one that most reminds me of the classic folk songwriters like Dylan and Joni Mitchell. This is one song I don't tire of despite its length:


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