# Which pages on opera on Wikipedia need improvement and how ?



## BBSVK (10 mo ago)

Which pages on opera on Wikipedia need improvement and what would you write there, if you were editors ?

Bear in mind, that the prefered sources are scholarly articles published in the peer reviewd journals, but, obviously, newspapers and other sources sometimes suffice.

I was quite unhappy a year ago, when reading about how Amina in La Sonnambula was written for "soprano sfogato", but wikipedia was silent on contemporary examples. (Except for Callas, who is not a contemporary singer, but at least was recorded with a reasonable quality).

I would also add the synopsis on Don Trastullo (the Jommelli opera) and Norma the play by Soumet. In fact I can probably just go there and suggest the edits when I have time.

However, the soprano sfogato is not in my power, it would have to be written very diplomatically, as people often disagree, who is or isn't it.

What else ?


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

I don't know offhand, but I know Wikipedia should be read cautiously.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

BBSVK said:


> Which pages on opera on Wikipedia need improvement and what would you write there, if you were editors ?
> 
> Bear in mind, that the prefered sources are scholarly articles published in the peer reviewd journals, but, obviously, newspapers and other sources sometimes suffice.
> 
> ...


I doubt there is such a thing as a soprano sfogato these days and Callas may well have been the last of the breed. Im any case, Amina seems to have yet again become the province of light voiced sopranos, even though the role was written for the same singer for whom Bellini wrote Norma, Giuditta Pasta.


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## BBSVK (10 mo ago)

Tsaraslondon said:


> I doubt there is such a thing as a soprano sfogato these days and Callas may well have been the last of the breed. Im any case, Amina seems to have yet again become the province of light voiced sopranos, even though the role was written for the same singer for whom Bellini wrote Norma, Giuditta Pasta.


This perfectionism was frustrating for me at the time I read it. Now I would use, as a proxy, "a singer who can sing Norma and is not squeaky". But this happened in my "life before Norma" 
Even if we dismiss contemporary singers, would Verrett, Gencer or Negri qualify ?


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## BBSVK (10 mo ago)

Tsaraslondon said:


> ... Callas may well have been the last of the breed. Im any case, Amina seems to have yet again become the province of light voiced sopranos ...


I guess I am solving the wrong question here. I did not know my Calas-ology at the time and associated her with the screechy old recordings or recordings past her prime, so I thought she was overrated and I was not interested in listening to her. I did not even bother to look up her La Soonambula. I went straight to Cecilia Bartolli, because she the was the only mezzo with broad range that I knew of


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

BBSVK said:


> I guess I am solving the wrong question here. I did not know my Calas-ology at the time and associated her with the screechy old recordings or recordings past her prime, so I thought she was overrated and I was not interested in listening to her. I did not even bother to look up her La Soonambula. I went straight to Cecilia Bartolli, because she the was the only mezzo with broad range that I knew of


I can't bear her breathy, over vibrant delivery. It seems ccompletely at odds with Bellini's beautiful, long melodies. 

Here is what the librettist, Romani, had to say about the character of Amina.

"_The role of Amina, even though at first glance it may seem very easy to interpret, is perhaps more difficult than many others which are deemed more important. It requires an actress who is playful, ingenuous and innocent, and at the same time passionate, sensitive and amorous; who has a cry for joy and also a cry for sorrow, an accent for reproach and another for entreaty… This was the role created by Bellini’s intellect._"


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## BBSVK (10 mo ago)

Tsaraslondon said:


> I can't bear her breathy, over vibrant delivery. It seems ccompletely at odds with Bellini's beautiful, long melodies.
> 
> Here is what the librettist, Romani, had to say about the character of Amina.
> 
> "_The role of Amina, even though at first glance it may seem very easy to interpret, is perhaps more difficult than many others which are deemed more important. It requires an actress who is playful, ingenuous and innocent, and at the same time passionate, sensitive and amorous; who has a cry for joy and also a cry for sorrow, an accent for reproach and another for entreaty… This was the role created by Bellini’s intellect._"


Didn't my sad story persuade you to dig up more examples or soprano sfogato, or proxies for it ?

What do you think about Verrett, Gencer, Negri ?

I don't dare to ask about my unnamed conteporary love, because I am not ready to hear the answer, LOL !


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## FrankE (Jan 13, 2021)

I can't think of any specific examples but when I was building a simple Access database of operas I found quite a few weren't in the house style and I'd to look through the text rather than a panel at the top right, to find the opus number if that was even mentioned or premiere date and venue.

My licence ran out and I can't access the Access database now which is a pest for tagging ripped CDs.


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## BBSVK (10 mo ago)

FrankE said:


> I can't think of any specific examples but when I was building a simple Access database of operas I found quite a few weren't in the house style and I'd to look through the text rather than a panel at the top right, to find the opus number if that was even mentioned or premiere date and venue.
> 
> My licence ran out and I can't access the Access database now which is a pest for tagging ripped CDs.


You are using some kind of jargon, and I don't understand what you are talking about.


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## ewilkros (8 mo ago)

FrankE said:


> ... tagging ripped CDs....


If I understand you correctly, you need the track names? Discogs -








Bellini / Sutherland, Monti, Corena, Orchestra E Coro Del Maggio Musicale Fiorentino, Richard Bonynge - La Sonnambula


View credits, reviews, tracks and shop for the 1996 CD release of "La Sonnambula" on Discogs.




www.discogs.com




- is helpful, though it's crowd-sourced and so the individual entries differ greatly in how much detail they give.

Is Sutherland "sfogato", what with the darkish, plushy, "covered" timbre she adopts from the early 60's on?

Muzio? (one electric 78 of Sonnambula ["ah non credea"] but it leaves you wanting more)


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## ewilkros (8 mo ago)

BBSVK said:


> Which pages on opera on Wikipedia need improvement....


I note that they have a whole long page on "Marian devotions", but there's not one word there about Maria Callas


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## BBSVK (10 mo ago)

ewilkros said:


> Is Sutherland "sfogato", what with the darkish, plushy, "covered" timbre she adopts from the early 60's on?


I somehow think she isn't, she is an outlier, an alien. But, superficially, she fits my definition. She sang Norma well and wasn't squeaky.



ewilkros said:


> Muzio? (one electric 78 of Sonnambula ("ah non credea") but it leaves you wanting more


I don't know her, thanx.


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## FrankE (Jan 13, 2021)

BBSVK said:


> You are using some kind of jargon, and I don't understand what you are talking about.


There are Wikipedia templates for operas so that entries for all operas conform to a 'house style' to make it easy on users who are looking up multiple pages. Some pages for operas are not written in the same style
e.g. the entry for _Tannhäuser und der Sängerkrieg auf Wartburg_ there is a panel at the top tight with 
"Title, 
a picture, 
Native title 
Tannhäuser und der Sängerkrieg auf Wartburg
Librettist Richard Wagner
Language German
Premiere 19 October 1845
Königliches Hoftheater Dresden"


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tannh%C3%A4user_(opera)



Some more obscure operas don't have that panel. I would edit Wikipedia pages but I'm not closing my VPN but I'm not an informed musicologist or music historian so I'd possibly introduce errors .

The tagging part of my post is just for my use case. One has to keep consistency in tags orit's hard using a mobile telephone to find a particular work to tell my PC to play it on my streamer.


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## ewilkros (8 mo ago)

BBSVK said:


> ... She sang Norma well and wasn't squeaky....
> 
> That goes double and triple for Ponselle, but when the Met revived Sonnambula in 1933--first performance since they did it for Maria Barrientos in 1916-- it was as a vehicle for Lily Pons. Couple of broadcasts waiting to be found --
> 
> ...


If you don't know her at all, you have quite a treat in store--she's one of the very greatest, though not "a coloratura"


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## BBSVK (10 mo ago)

FrankE said:


> There are Wikipedia templates for operas so that entries for all operas conform to a 'house style' to make it easy on users who are looking up multiple pages. Some pages for operas are not written in the same style
> e.g. the entry for _Tannhäuser und der Sängerkrieg auf Wartburg_ there is a panel at the top tight with
> "Title,
> a picture,
> ...


Now I understand more of your text than before, but not all...


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## FrankE (Jan 13, 2021)

ewilkros said:


> If I understand you correctly, you need the track names? Discogs -


No my opera database is just
Composer, Opera Title (the full correct native title), Title translation, Opus/Catalogue, Language, Genre, No of Acts, Premiere date, Premier venue, Librettists Librettist1, Librettist2, [story]Based on.

At least a few of the operas listed had their templates filled in fully with all that information and I based my database structure on an opera entry that had all that most basic info.
eg Macbeth has more fields filled in:


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macbeth_(opera)


Took me weeks of cutting and pasting mostly from Wiki but I had to look up other sources for less common operas
I'd almost always to find the number of acts from the ' List of works by composer Wikipedia page. Surely that should be in the basic info template

When one rips a CD the tags returned from PerfectMeta, Musicbrainz, GD3 or wherever are what some other user somewhere has manually typed into a site. Say for composer which is how I primarily search for a work to play someone will type _R. Wagner_ in the metadata they upload, another '_Richard Wagner'_, another Wilhelm 'Richard Wagner', another R Wagner, someone else _Wagner. _That would mean jumping about scrolling through R and W to find the work I'm looking for, so I retag Composer field using MP3Tag with _Wagner, Wilhelm 'Richard' (1813-1883)_ copied and pasted from my database so everything is consistent.

Discogs I had to use quite a lot because they at least list Orchestras by their correct (native) title and the tags returned when ripping are often poor eg BR, Bavario SO, Bayern SO, BRSO instead of _Symphonieorchester des Bayerischen Rundfunks_ or all the variations of _Göteborgs Symfoniker, Sächsische Staatskapelle Dresden, Berliner Philharmoniker_ it's just easier finding things in full native titles than under many different names.

The upshot I can't recall which Opera Wikipedia entries could use updating in general but I guess many do.
Many need the template at the top right filled in fully with Opus/Catalogue, Language, Genre (opera comique etc), Premiere date, Premier venue, Librettists and what the opera is based on.


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## BBSVK (10 mo ago)

FrankE said:


> No my opera database is just
> Composer, Opera Title (the full correct native title), Title translation, Opus/Catalogue, Language, Genre, No of Acts, Premiere date, Premier venue, Librettists Librettist1, Librettist2, [story]Based on.
> 
> At least a few of the operas listed had their templates filled in fully with all that information and I based my database structure on an opera entry that had all that most basic info.
> ...


What does it mean to rip a CD ?


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## BBSVK (10 mo ago)

What disqualifies Caballe from being soprano sfogato ? Now I am just trying to understand it, not asking for La Sonnambula or wikipedia. Seattleoperafan wrote, that she sang also some mezzosoprano arias.


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## FrankE (Jan 13, 2021)

BBSVK said:


> What does it mean to rip a CD ?


When I buy a CD I RIP it to my computer because in my small space it's much easier to sort, find and play from there and the discs don't get trashed. I'm cheap with electric (I'd rather my money was in my pocket than energy companies and the state) and it's cheaper running just a network streamer than a CD player and amplifier. 
Ripping means I put it in the CD/DVD drive on my desktop PC, open some ripping software (in my case dBPowerAmp CD Ripper, there's also Foobar, Exact Audio Copy both free), the CD drive reads the disk at several times the normal speed and saves as a file on the computer in my preferred format WAV or FLAC.
The ripping software does some lookups over the Internet for CDs with a matching signature and gives me sometimes a choice of meat tags with artist, track, composer information.
BURNing an audio CD is the opposite. One puts a blank recordable CD in the drive and it converts an audio file in FLAC, wav to a PCM audio stream and writes it to the CD to be playable on a CD player.

It's not pertinent to the thread but there are thousands of guides to digital audio and video on the web.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

<Tristan chord> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tristan_chord should include a discussion of


hammeredklavier said:


> measure 18 in the slow movement of Mozart string quartet K.428: youtube.com/watch?v=bkNWCx-2AbU&t=14m38s
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

This may not be directly related to opera, but in the page <Modulation> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modulation_(music) and its discussions of common tone modulations, enharmonic modulations, mediant modulations and their examples, the focus is mostly on (famous) 19th century works, which isn't necessarily a bad thing. But I might edit it some day to include, for example, this stuff, written around the time of Mozart's death-


hammeredklavier said:


> the measures inside the box: by the shift, [Cb, Ab, Eb]—[B, G#, E], the altered, A flat minor triad, i6 (G sharp minor, enharmonically) leads to V64 of A minor, acting as a transition between the section in A flat and the one in A minor


Similarly, in the following example, the bVI in A flat (altered, A flat minor) acts as a pivot to the I of E major, to transition from A flat major to E major. The iv6 in E major (altered, E minor) acts as a pivot to the V7 of F minor, to transition from E major to F minor. Also note the common-tone diminished 7th chord, CTo7 (the kind of device Schubert famously has in the beginning of his string quintet, and Brahms in his 3rd symphony).


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## BBSVK (10 mo ago)

ewilkros said:


> Is Sutherland "sfogato", what with the darkish, plushy, "covered" timbre she adopts from the early 60's on?


@Seattleoperafan , see this.


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## MAS (Apr 15, 2015)

BBSVK said:


> @Seattleoperafan , see this.


You may want to look up *soprano sfogato *in Wikipedia to start.


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## BBSVK (10 mo ago)

MAS said:


> You may want to look up *soprano sfogato *in Wikipedia to start.


I was pointing @Seattleoperafan to this quote, because I read it as flattering to Joan Sutherland in her later years. Several people like her, even on this forum. People who do contests are a special bunch.

Wikipedia does not mention any living singer as a soprano sfogato. The most recent example they make is Maria Callas. I would have liked to have a more contemporary example when I was getting to know this stuff. Or at least somebody close to that. However, I understand now it would create too much controversy.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

BBSVK said:


> I was pointing @Seattleoperafan to this quote, because I read it as flattering to Joan Sutherland in her later years. Several people like her, even on this forum. People who do contests are a special bunch.
> 
> Wikipedia does not mention any living singer as a soprano sfogato. The most recent example they make is Maria Callas. I would have liked to have a more contemporary example when I was getting to know this stuff. Or at least somebody close to that. However, I understand now it would create too much controversy.


Sutherland began as a mezzo but definitely in the early part of her career she was definitely a dramatic coloratura soprano. She certainly had a much richer middle and lower part of the voice in the last third of her career vocalizing down easily to G below middle C in several arias and sounding very mezzo like in the middle. I don't think many would think of her as a soprano sfogato though. Not even Callas who had lots of power down low when needed but who found the tessitura of Delilah too low. I think early Marilyn Horne or possibly Ponselle were closer. Shirley Verrett and Bumbry perhaps. Obratzsova could have sung soprano and did sing arias but the voice was so enormous and dark. Dimitrova could sing both Amneris and Aida but it was because her whole range was so enormous. I am just speculating here.


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## BBSVK (10 mo ago)

Seattleoperafan said:


> Sutherland began as a mezzo but definitely in the early part of her career she was definitely a dramatic coloratura soprano. She certainly had a much richer middle and lower part of the voice in the last third of her career vocalizing down easily to G below middle C in several arias and sounding very mezzo like in the middle. I don't think many would think of her as a soprano sfogato though. Not even Callas who had lots of power down low when needed but who found the tessitura of Delilah too low. I think early Marilyn Horne or possibly Ponselle were closer. Shirley Verrett and Bumbry perhaps. Obratzsova could have sung soprano and did sing arias but the voice was so enormous and dark. Dimitrova could sing both Amneris and Aida but it was because her whole range was so enormous. I am just speculating here.


Thanks for some names.

The desription of Giudita Pasta matches very well the descriprion of Callas. So if Pasta was a soprano sfogato, I believe Callas was as well.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

BBSVK said:


> Thanks for some names.
> 
> The desription of Giudita Pasta matches very well the descriprion of Callas. So if Pasta was a soprano sfogato, I believe Callas was as well.


Others have said the same. I am no scholar here. The trueism is that singers like Melchoir, Flagstad, Callas, Corelli and Sutherland haven't existed for a generation. You also rarely encounter voices that have a distinctive sound anymore. That was what was so refreshing about the singer you paired with Rebekah the other day. I loved her unique sound. Many here don't like Jonas Kaufmann, but I do because he has his own signature sound. When hearing him in the car you connect his sound with him uniquely. I am very encouraged by Amber Wagner as she has that quality and you hear her voice and instantly think WAGNER and VERDI. There are so few today who can sing that repertoire.


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