# Was Ludwig Van black?



## Aramis (Mar 1, 2009)

http://www.africawithin.com/kwaku/beethoven.htm

Sounds silly, but at the other hand - why not?


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## sam richards (Apr 8, 2009)

No. It's only a meaningless cospiracy theory.

One may even argue that the earth is flat.

See: www.theflatearthsociety.org/


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## Bach (Jun 2, 2008)

Doesn't look terribly black to me.


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## JoeGreen (Nov 17, 2008)

Well I wouldn't put it beyond 19th century europe and the west's awful eurocentrism to change a black man ( or any other race for that matter) into a white man in order to fluff up their pride (look at Jesus for example middle eastern to nordic, that's one miracle he propably wasn't counting on ). But I just don't think there is enough evidence to support that claim. So, no.


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## david johnson (Jun 25, 2007)

i haven't heard that one about lvb in 25 years! ah...the resurrected conspiracy.
i knew one person who really believed this nonesense.

dj


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## Tapkaara (Apr 18, 2006)

Scott Joplin was white!


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## Mirror Image (Apr 20, 2009)

This is some of the most ridiculous made-up bunch of nonsense I've ever heard.


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## Chi_townPhilly (Apr 21, 2007)

I don't know which is funnier... post 5 (a report that someone actually bought into this) or post 6!

I agree with *Mirror Image*'s comment- with one proviso- it may _tie_ for the most ridiculous bunch of made-up nonsense yet mentioned on this board.

One question- why is this in the "Composer Guestbooks" sub-forum?
Subtitle- "Leave your favorite a message!"


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## Tapkaara (Apr 18, 2006)

Maybe Beethoven did black face like Al Jolson, and that's where the confusion set in. Imagine hearing Mammie sung by a deaf guy with a German accent...!


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## Weston (Jul 11, 2008)

A lock of his hair is allegedly extant, and it does not have the texture of an African's. I understand he was considered ruddy.


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## Mirror Image (Apr 20, 2009)

Chi_town/Philly said:


> One question- why is this in the "Composer Guestbooks" sub-forum?


That's a very good question.


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## Krummhorn (Feb 18, 2007)

Chi_town/Philly said:


> One question- why is this in the "Composer Guestbooks" sub-forum?





Mirror Image said:


> That's a very good question.


With a click of the magic mouse ... moved


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## Mirror Image (Apr 20, 2009)

Krummhorn said:


> With a click of the magic mouse ... moved


Alright thanks, Krummhorn. This is a lot better.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

Didn't Dvorak have some Afro American heritage? I'm serious, really. I seem to recall reading somewhere more legitimate than that Beethoven site that this was the case...


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## Herzeleide (Feb 25, 2008)

Andre said:


> Didn't Dvorak have some Afro American heritage?


You're probably confusing this with the fact that he was influenced by Afro-American music when writing his ninth symphony.


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## sam richards (Apr 8, 2009)

This site is obviously one of those fake conspiracy theory sites. Almost as legitimate as this:


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## bdelykleon (May 21, 2009)

I think Europe's most famous afro-descendent is Pushkin who is a direct descendent of Gannibal, a black inthe court of Peter the great. No one ever tried to hide this from Pushkin's life, so why someone would try to do this to Beethoven. Actually, racism is a very recent, late XIX century, idea. 
Just nonsensical conspiracy theory like that Andrea Lucchesi story...


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## Zasranec (Mar 19, 2009)

bdelykleon said:


> I think Europe's most famous afro-descendent is Pushkin who is a direct descendent of Gannibal, a black inthe court of Peter the great. No one ever tried to hide this from Pushkin's life, so why someone would try to do this to Beethoven. Actually, racism is a very recent, late XIX century, idea.
> Just nonsensical conspiracy theory like that Andrea Lucchesi story...


And yet no one in Russia considers him black, of Afro-Russian  (there is no such term actually), just Russian. And maybe it's the way to go...


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## Ian Elliott (Nov 15, 2010)

He got into some black moods.


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## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

Beethoven's origins were Flemish (hence the 'van' part of his name) so highly unlikely, I'd say.


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## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

He was black, and often wore a black wig. The Caucasian representations of him are photo negatives.


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

There has been yet again a recent flap about this, nothing fully verified, scientific or 'just scholarly' has proved it.
http://open.salon.com/blog/ronp01/2009/09/27/the_african_heritage_of_ludwig_van_beethoven

IF Luigi's mother was 'Moorish' She could have been a mix of anything, North Africa being well-traveled and occupied since the Roman Empire: "Moorish" could have been one of the 'aryan' semitic types, etc.

If so, she married Luigi's father and ended up in another European country, making mummy 'culturally' more than likely 'just another European with a European sensibility, regardless the conformation of her face or the color of her complexion

The first wave of 20th century speculation started in the late nineteen-sixties, early seventies, (parallel with the Black Power Movement(s) with the ludicrously weak -- and now probably considered 'racist' -- argument that he had to be black because his sense of rhythm was so strong. ROFL. This, or that perhaps Mummy sang some old ****** North African ditties to little Luigi, or otherwise affected him with her cultural view on the world, or that pre-natal Luigi had in his genes some 'cultural' heritage is all the sorts of statements I can imagine just waiting in the wings for a mere genetic confirmation: they are hysterically funny to think about, that some people are that wildly irrational.

If he was, he was entirely 'european' as to culture, thought, and 'impulses.' Whatever genetics might be revealed, that will stay the same.

The conformation of his face is very typical of many tens of thousands of north Europeans. He may have been a 'tiny bit more' black than the rest of 'us' Caucasians, who all have some trace of that genetic lineage if you care to believe that 'we' all came out of Africa many moons ago (and I do.)

Of these historic terms for mixed race, black and caucasian:
mulatto = 1/2 each
quadroon = 1/4th black
octoroon = 1/8th black
mustefino = 1/16th [also 'quintroon,' 'hexadecaroon'

It is possible he may have been a 'Mustefino' or less than that mix: without grabbing some genetic material for conclusive results (raising a Q is there genetic material and why hasn't the scientific community settled the question?) we have those descriptions and portraits, as shown in the link article, to go by. The engraving where Luigi looks darker and 'swarthier' met with his approval. Portraiture at the time conventionally 'air-brushed- many a subject, giving them milky white skin, rosy cheeks, and blue eyes (!) even if none of those were the reality of the subject's appearance: those painted portraits, unless really 'verified' by a portrait by another painter who did not refer to other portraits, are not to be fully believed. (Look at how many 'Mozarts' there are, one portrait to the next - all somewhat similar, but.

He was Rhenish, neither 'German' or 'Dutch.'

In European arts history, Alexander Pushkin, the great Russian author 1799 - 1837, or Camille Pissarro, painter 1830 - 1903, are another story

P.s. (had to look these composers up, not being in immediate recall, each of 'mixed' (weird concept, imho) African-European lineage:
Chevalier J.J.O. de Meude-Monpas, and Chevalier de Saint-Georges ~ both violinst-composers and Mozart contemporaries. The latter with a checkered career, evidently somewhat flaky and superficial. Serviceable if not wholly great music from the era.

Samuel Coleridge-Taylor, British (1875-1912). best known for his large-scale choral trilogy, 'The Song of Hiawatha.' Still referred to as 'The black Mahler' (probably today that is not only 'racist' but condescending as well


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## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

Pushkin was partly of African heritage (the ancestor in question was quite a success story and even one of Queen Elizabeth II's own cousins is directly descended from him) so maybe anything's possible.


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## Badinerie (May 3, 2008)

Good-grief.....!


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

Adam and Eve are white in every picture that I've seen, so I don't know where black people come from anyway?

Same for God's son, Jesus!


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## Petwhac (Jun 9, 2010)

Who cares if Beethoven had dark skin?
We all have African ancestors don't we?
The tone of some of the comments on this thread, the outrage and indignation I find a little troubling.


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## Moira (Apr 1, 2012)

I am African. I am supposedly white. I find this thread incredible and funny, but not incredibly funny.


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