# Kenny G



## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

After the stigma surrounding this Artist left my head, I was able to really appreciate his music and he's becoming a favorite.

I'm evolving to a very smooth sound in all genres.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

I listen to the other Kenny G (arrett)


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

starthrower said:


> I listen to the other Kenny G (arrett)


Ya, it's not cool to like Kenny G.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

Captainnumber36 said:


> Ya, it's not cool to like Kenny G.


If you like him that's cool.


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## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

Captainnumber36 said:


> Ya, it's not cool to like Kenny G.


The hairstyle probably didn't help much - has he got it cut properly yet?


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

elgars ghost said:


> The hairstyle probably didn't help much - has he got it cut properly yet?


lol, I'm not sure.


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

Maybe I like lite music, Mozart and Haydn are both considered lite classical, and are favorites.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

elgars ghost said:


> The hairstyle probably didn't help much - has he got it cut properly yet?


The pet groomers have been booked up lately.


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## progmatist (Apr 3, 2021)

elgars ghost said:


> The hairstyle probably didn't help much - has he got it cut properly yet?


He appeared on Jimmy Kimmel live this past Thursday, with the same wild mane of hair. He was funny as hell BTW.


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## senza sordino (Oct 20, 2013)

For your information, from Wikipedia



> In 1997, a Guinness World Record was set for longest held musical note. Kenny G used circular breathing to sustain an E-flat on a saxophone for 45 minutes and 47 seconds.


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## nikola (Sep 7, 2012)

I think it's not 'not cool' to like Kenny G, but it's very cool to pretend that you hate him. 

It's same with Yanni. On jazz boards they would open a thread so they could talk there how horrible jazz musician he is and that he's not even jazz. On classical board they would open a thread so they could talk there all over again how horrible classical musician he is and that he's not even classical music. 

To be honest, I don't care much about Kenny G, but I understand his likeability (I mean, who can't understand that 'Songbird' is a smooth classic!?).

On the other hand I love Yanni's music and I believe that he is a brilliant and talented musician unlike many others out there. Ok, for a last few years he didn't composed much and what he composed was kinda mostly bland, but some of his earlier albums are epitomes of creative explosions of personality and talent. Yanni is genius and extremely talented and unique self taught composer.

I think it's great that you like Kenny G and there should be more people 'coming out of the closet' admitting that they like him. In this world of mob mentality and mediocrity you actually had balls to admit that you like Kenny G.
In my eyes - you are a hero!


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

nikola said:


> I think it's not 'not cool' to like Kenny G, but it's very cool to pretend that you hate him.
> 
> It's same with Yanni. On jazz boards they would open a thread so they could talk there how horrible jazz musician he is and that he's not even jazz. On classical board they would open a thread so they could talk there all over again how horrible classical musician he is and that he's not even classical music.
> 
> ...


Thanks Nikola, hope you're well. Yanni is great!


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## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

Just speaking personally, as a sax player, I've always liked Kenny G, though I've always been mocked for it. Before Kenny G, soprano sax players tried to sound like John Coltrane, which wasn't the best sound. Kenny G brought a melodic sound back to the instrument. Also, soprano sax players wanted to play like John Coltrane, with lots of notes, but Kenny G came along just played the melody with a few ornaments. Even his improvisation was/is less about jazz and more about melody. 

So he's been an influence on my playing in that I could take my classical training, concentrating on melody, phrasing, and tone, and apply it to other genres. 

Of course, that's just me. As they say, let the haters hate.


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

Closing the thread for a cool down period.


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

Several posts have been edited or removed, because they violated our guidelines. 



> Guidelines for General Behavior
> 
> Be polite to your fellow members. If you disagree with them, please state your opinion in a »civil« and respectful manner. This applies to all communication taking place on talkclassical.com, whether by means of posts, private messages, visitor messages, blogs and social groups.
> 
> ...


The thread is now open again.


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

I think is music is incredibly trite, bland and banal. I don't have anything against music that tries to be relaxing, but I don't find anything intriguing, musically interesting in any way (melody, rhythm, harmony, sound). What I've heard is just diatonic blandness with the emotional depth of those romantic movies that seem to be made in stocks where everything is perfect, the actors are cute, the plot is full of cliches and you know from the start there will be a happy end.


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## Jay (Jul 21, 2014)

senza sordino said:


> For your information, from Wikipedia


The Guinness people should listen to Australian aboriginal didgeridoo and Balinese flute players. No contest.


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## Bwv 1080 (Dec 31, 2018)

Agree 100% with Pat

https://www.jazzguitar.com/features/kennyg.html#google_vignette

Kenny G is not a musician I really had much of an opinion about at all until recently. There was not much about the way he played that interested me one way or the other either live or on records. I first heard him a number of years ago playing as a sideman with Jeff Lorber when they opened a concert for my band. My impression was that he was someone who had spent a fair amount of time listening to the more pop oriented sax players of that time, like grover washington or david sanborn, but was not really an advanced player, even in that style. He had major rhythmic problems and his harmonic and melodic vocabulary was extremely limited, mostly to pentatonic based and blues- lick derived patterns, and he basically exhibited only a rudimentary understanding of how to function as a professional soloist in an ensemble - Lorber was basically playing him off the bandstand in terms of actual music. but he did show a knack for connecting to the basest impulses of the large crowd by deploying his two or three most effective licks (holding long notes and playing fast runs - never mind that there were lots of harmonic clams in them) at the keys moments to elicit a powerful crowd reaction (over and over again). The other main thing I noticed was that he also, as he does to this day, play horribly out of tune - consistently sharp.

Of course, I am aware of what he has played since, the success it has had, and the controversy that has surrounded him among musicians and serious listeners. This controversy seems to be largely fueled by the fact that he sells an enormous amount of records while not being anywhere near a really great player in relation to the standards that have been set on his instrument over the past sixty or seventy years.

And honestly, there is no small amount of envy involved from musicians who see one of their fellow players doing so well financially, especially when so many of them who are far superior as improvisors and musicians in general have trouble just making a living. There must be hundreds, if not thousands of sax players around the world who are simply better improvising musicians than Kenny G on his chosen instruments. It would really surprise me if even he disagreed with that statement.

Having said that, it has gotten me to thinking lately why so many jazz musicians (myself included, given the right "bait" of a question, as I will explain later) and audiences have gone so far as to say that what he is playing is not even jazz at all.

Stepping back for a minute, if we examine the way he plays, especially if one can remove the actual improvising from the often mundane background environment that it is delivered in, we see that his saxophone style is in fact clearly in the tradition of the kind of playing that most reasonably objective listeners WOULD normally quantify as being jazz. It's just that as jazz or even as music in a general sense, with these standards in mind, it is simply not up to the level of playing that we historically associate with professional improvising musicians. So, lately I have been advocating that we go ahead and just include it under the word jazz - since pretty much of the rest of the world OUTSIDE of the jazz community does anyway - and let the chips fall where they may.

And after all, why he should be judged by any other standard, why he should be exempt from that that all other serious musicians on his instrument are judged by if they attempt to use their abilities in an improvisational context playing with a rhythm section as he does? he SHOULD be compared to John Coltrane or Wayne Shorter, for instance, on his abilities (or lack thereof) to play the soprano saxophone and his success (or lack thereof) at finding a way to deploy that instrument in an ensemble in order to accurately gauge his abilities and put them in the context of his instrument's legacy and potential.

As a composer of even eighth note based music, he SHOULD be compared to herbie hancock, horace silver or even grover washington. Suffice it to say, on all above counts, at this point in his development, he wouldn't fare well.

But, like I said at the top, this relatively benign view was all "until recently".

Not long ago, Kenny G put out a recording where he overdubbed himself on top of a 30+ year old Louis Armstrong record, the track "what a wonderful world". With this single move, Kenny G became one of the few people on earth I can say that I really can't use at all - as a man, for his incredible arrogance to even consider such a thing, and as a musician, for presuming to share the stage with the single most important figure in our music.

This type of musical necrophilia - the technique of overdubbing on the pre-existing tracks of already dead performers - was weird when Natalie Cole did it with her dad on "unforgettable" a few years ago, but it was her dad. When Tony Bennett did it with Billie Holiday it was bizarre, but we are talking about two of the greatest singers of the 20th century who were on roughly the same level of artistic accomplishment. When Larry Coryell presumed to overdub himself on top of a Wes Montgomery track, I lost a lot of the respect that I ever had for him - and I have to seriously question the fact that I did have respect for someone who could turn out to have have such unbelievably bad taste and be that disrespectful to one of my personal heroes.

But *when Kenny G decided that it was appropriate for him to defile the music of the man who is probably the greatest jazz musician that has ever lived by spewing his lame-***, jive, pseudo bluesy, out-of-tune, noodling, wimped out, ****** up playing all over one of the great Louis's tracks (even one of his lesser ones), he did something that I would not have imagined possible. He, in one move, through his unbelievably pretentious and calloused musical decision to embark on this most cynical of musical paths, **** all over the graves of all the musicians past and present who have risked their lives by going out there on the road for years and years developing their own music inspired by the standards of grace that Louis armstrong brought to every single note he played over an amazing lifetime as a musician. By disrespecting Louis, his legacy and by default, everyone who has ever tried to do something positive with improvised music and what it can be, Kenny G has created a new low point in modern culture - something that we all should be totally embarrassed about - and afraid of. We ignore this, "let it slide", at our own peril.

His callous disregard for the larger issues of what this crass gesture implies is exacerbated by the fact that the only reason he possibly have for doing something this inherently wrong (on both human and musical terms) was for the record sales and the money it would bring.*

Since that record came out - in protest, as insigificant as it may be, I encourage everyone to boycott Kenny G recordings, concerts and anything he is associated with. If asked about Kenny G, I will diss him and his music with the same passion that is in evidence in this little essay.

Normally, I feel that musicians all have a hard enough time, regardless of their level, just trying to play good and don't really benefit from public criticism, particularly from their fellow players. But, this is different.

There ARE some things that are sacred - and amongst any musician that has ever attempted to address jazz at even the most basic of levels, Louis Armstrong and his music is hallowed ground. To ignore this trespass is to agree that NOTHING any musician has attempted to do with their life in music has any intrinsic value - and I refuse to do that. (i am also amazed that there HASN'T already been an outcry against this among music critics - where ARE they on this?????!?!?!?!- , magazines, etc.). Everything I said here is exactly the same as what I would say to gorelick if I ever saw him in person. And if I ever DO see him anywhere, at any function - he WILL get a piece of my mind and (maybe a guitar wrapped around his head.)

NOTE: this post is partially in response to the comments that people have made regarding a short video interview excerpt with me that was posted on the internet taken from a tv show for young people (kind of like MTV) in poland where I was asked to address 8 to 11 year old kids on terms that they could understand about jazz.

While enthusiastically describing the virtues of this great area of music, I was encouraging the kids to find and listen to some of the greats in the music and not to get confused by the sometimes overwhelming volume of music that falls under the jazz umbrella. I went on to say that I think that for instance, "Kenny G plays the dumbest music on the planet" - something that all 8 to 11 year kids on the planet already intrinsically know, as anyone who has ever spent any time around kids that age could confirm - so it gave us some common ground for the rest of the discussion. (ADDENDUM: the only thing wrong with the statement that I made was that I did not include the rest of the known universe.)

The fact that this clip was released so far out of the context that it was delivered in is a drag, but it is now done. (it's unauthorized release out of context like that is symptomatic of the new electronically interconnected culture that we now live in - where pretty much anything anyone anywhere has ever said or done has the potential to become common public property at any time.) I was surprised by the polish people putting this clip up so far away from the use that it was intended -really just for the attention - with no explanation of the show it was made for - they (the polish people in general) used to be so hip and would have been unlikely candidates to do something like that before, but I guess everything is changing there like it is everywhere else.

The only other thing that surprised me in the aftermath of the release of this little interview is that ANYONE would be even a little bit surprised that I would say such a thing, given the reality of Mr. G's music. This makes me want to go practice about 10 times harder, because that suggests to me that I am not getting my own musical message across clearly enough - which to me, in every single way and intention is diametrically opposed to what Kenny G seems to be after.


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## pianozach (May 21, 2018)

*For those that say Kenny G can't play.

*This is regardless of the subgenre / style in which he chooses to play, and his musical decisions. In general I don't listen to Kenny G; his usual musical style simply bores me, BUT he DOES actually know how to play. No, he's no Coltrane. He's not Cannonball Adderly, not even a Stan Getz.

But there ARE plenty of folks that DO enjoy his playing and albums. To each their own.


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## Jay (Jul 21, 2014)

pianozach said:


> To each their own.


Yeah, life's too short (a lesson perhaps Pat Metheny has learned by now).


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## bharbeke (Mar 4, 2013)

His version of "Silver Bells" is terrific and one of the few Christmas standards on the 24/7 Christmas station that I will always listen to when it comes on.

My 5th grade teacher would play his Breathless album during tests, and I still like "The Joy of Life" from it, so he's doing something right.

For those who do enjoy his music, what would be a couple of the best gateway albums to his work?


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

I don't believe in the concept of "guilty pleasures": we all like what we like and we do not need to feel apologetic about our preferences, just because many people feel otherwise about them. I think KennyG should actually be listed under easy listening and not under jazz - I doubt that he would be an effective gateway into jazz for people keen on exploring that genre (like Andre Rieu is not an effective gateway into classical). But anyone who enjoys listening to him, just go for it.


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

I never heard any of Kenny G's music, so I listened to a few videos on Youtube. Art Rock is correct that "easy listening" is the most reasonable category; calling it jazz would be an insult to jazz.

For me, the music either borders on being sappy or is totally immersed in the goo. In that respect, I'd put him in a category along with the Carpenters and other artists who are excessively sweet.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

The Carpenters were far more musically accomplished than Kenny G.


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## nikola (Sep 7, 2012)

I find it really funny when people are trying to compare Kenny G with Coltrane or Miles Davis and come to conclusion that's G's music is way more simple and banal. The thing is - the people who like to listen Kenny G for sure can't find in Miles Davis' music what Kenny G is offering. 
This guy that is quoted said that there are many better sax players. So why they play the same old jazz thing that majority of mainstream public don't care for? The fact that Kenny G doesn't have real competition considering his more simpler and pop approach to sax music isn't his fault - it is the fault of all the musicians who could actually try to understand what some people want to hear and make something similar to Kenny G, but with MUCH BETTER RESULT. 
The problem is, why are we always talk about Kenny G? Aren't there other artists making similar music or if they are there, are they really even worse than Kenny G if they are so unknown? 
To compare Kenny G to Miles Davis is almost the same as comparing Norah Jones to Glen Gould - just because they both play the piano doesn't mean that you could or should compare them because they perform completely different type of music.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

I have nothing against simpler or pop oriented music. It's all about how it sounds and whether it resonates with me. Millions like to put on a Kenny G record while dining or getting it on which is fine. I don't like pop saxophone stylings so I don't buy his records. But I'm not gonna look down on others for their choice of musical enjoyment. Who cares? To each his own.


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## progmatist (Apr 3, 2021)

starthrower said:


> The Carpenters were far more musically accomplished than Kenny G.


Especially Karen, who sang as well as she did while holding down the beat behind the drum kit.


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx


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## Red Terror (Dec 10, 2018)

Bwv 1080 said:


> Agree 100% with Pat
> 
> https://www.jazzguitar.com/features/kennyg.html#google_vignette
> 
> ...


Damn, Pat really hates old Kenny. Can't say I disagree with his rationale.


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

nikola said:


> The fact that Kenny G doesn't have real competition considering his more simpler and pop approach to sax music isn't his fault - it is the fault of all the musicians who could actually try to understand what some people want to hear


I know you're a fan of Twin Peaks. Do you think that David Lynch was trying to understand what people wanted to watch? I think he was trying to make something that was close to his vision.
Which is how often great art is made.


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

Bwv 1080 said:


> Agree 100% with Pat
> 
> https://www.jazzguitar.com/features/kennyg.html#google_vignette.


Would I be correct in thinking that you're not a fan then and have little regard for the musical output of Mr. G?:lol:


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## Red Terror (Dec 10, 2018)

I wonder to what extent Kenny's music reflect his character?


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## nikola (Sep 7, 2012)

norman bates said:


> I know you're a fan of Twin Peaks. Do you think that David Lynch was trying to understand what people wanted to watch? I think he was trying to make something that was close to his vision.
> Which is how often great art is made.


Mark Frost actually saved Twin Peaks from being complete surreal disaster back in 1990 and David Lynch made disaster with season 3, 25 years later.
I agree that artists must make music that they think is good, but I also think there's too much snobbery in jazz world, so many musicians wouldn't even dare to play some cheesy sax tunes. That's why Kenny G is so popular (because he is almost alone with his style) even though he's really nothing special. We have many horrible so called 'pop' musicians today... they're on the charts and that so called 'music' is disaster - derivative, bland, simplistic, predictable and uninteresting to listen to. So why we don't have more Kenny G's? I guess that sax players maybe don't dare to play something like this considering Kenny's reputation among jazz crowd. Kenny probably knew he's not good enough to play more complex stuff but he knew that many people will like that 80's cheesy 'Santa Barbara' soap opera sound. He shouldn't be compared to jazz musicians because his music is instrumental pop. After all this talk about him maybe I should give a listen to some of his music to remind myself how he sounds. I actually have one of his Greatest Hits CD's that someone gave me or someone bought it back in the late 90's. I was even listening to it a few times, got bored soon and never listened to it again. 
I remember there's also some guy playing similar stuff on sax or trumpet, but I can't remember his name.


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## nikola (Sep 7, 2012)

Red Terror said:


> I wonder to what extent Kenny's music reflect his character?


You mean is he a gentle and emotional soul? Yes, he probably is. I guess that you think something else about him, but I probably wouldn't agree with you. I'm not saying that his music is truly 'emotional', but that's what he's trying to achieve most of the time.


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## Red Terror (Dec 10, 2018)

Does anyone like Herb Alpert? He's the only musician I can think of who's esthetic is comparable to G's. Then again, Herb is actually enormously talented.


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

nikola said:


> Mark Frost actually saved Twin Peaks from being complete surreal disaster back in 1990 and David Lynch made disaster with season 3, 25 years later.


well, actually I think that the third season is by far the best season, and if Mark Frost was the guy who made Lynch reveal who killed Laura Palmer runing half of the second season, I want to slowly torture him 



nikola said:


> I agree that artists must make music that they think is good, but I also think there's too much snobbery in jazz world, so many musicians wouldn't even dare to play some cheesy sax tunes.


a lot of jazz musicians have played on rock and pop albums.



nikola said:


> That's why Kenny G is so popular (because he is almost alone with his style) even though he's really nothing special. We have many horrible so called 'pop' musicians today... they're on the charts and that so called 'music' is disaster - derivative, bland, simplistic, predictable and uninteresting to listen to. So why we don't have more Kenny G's? I guess that sax players maybe don't dare to play something like this considering Kenny's reputation among jazz crowd. Kenny probably knew he's not good enough to play more complex stuff but he knew that many people will like that 80's cheesy 'Santa Barbara' soap opera sound. He shouldn't be compared to jazz musicians because his music is instrumental pop. After all this talk about him maybe I should give a listen to some of his music to remind myself how he sounds. I actually have one of his Greatest Hits CD's that someone gave me or someone bought it back in the late 90's. I was even listening to it a few times, got bored soon and never listened to it again.
> I remember there's also some guy playing similar stuff on sax or trumpet, but I can't remember his name.


Onestly I don't even care if his music is jazz or not. It's just that I don't find anything interesting in the music I've heard of him for the reasons I've said (I have to admit: I'm very far from being an expert of his discography). For instance this is instrumental pop on sax that can probably be compared to his work and I love it


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## nikola (Sep 7, 2012)

norman bates said:


> well, actually I think that the third season is by far the best season, and if Mark Frost was the guy who made Lynch reveal who killed Laura Palmer runing half of the second season, I want to slowly torture him


Mark Frost made Twin Peaks watchable with linear story etc. After 17th episode (inluding the pilot as #1 episode) TP should have ended. TV probably forced Lynch to reveal Laura's killer. 3rd season is complete disjointed mess and nonsense pretending to be art and to have hidden meaning. There's nothing there. No meaning... nothing. There's really no director who managed to destroy his own TV show like that. The worst of all, he completely destroyed the atmosphere of first 2 seasons and turned TV show into some surreal horror that TP never was. There's almost no scene that does make any sense at all in 3rd season.



norman bates said:


> a lot of jazz musicians have played on rock and pop albums.
> Onestly I don't even care if his music is jazz or not. It's just that I don't find anything interesting in the music I've heard of him for the reasons I've said (I have to admit: I'm very far from being an expert of his discography). For instance this is instrumental pop on sax that can probably be compared to his work and I love it


It's not easy to like Kenny G. I mean, he is probably relaxing, but not much more than that to me. What I don't understand is 'hate' from some people towards him. It's really not that offensive music. There is out there so much worse music that I really hate. Kenny G is not one of those. I simply don't care about him.

This Shigeaki Saegusa is slightly different, but I wouldn't say it's that far from Kenny G to say it's so much better. It's really very close in the terms of atmosphere and content, especially the 1st part. That violin on 2nd part is nice though. 2nd and 3rd parts remind me almost more of Morricone than Kenny G.
If I want really strong emotional content and many different musical styles I listen to Morricone.
Kenny is always 'high' and too corny with his notes, so that's probably one of the reasons why people don't like that.

Some nice change:


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## Bwv 1080 (Dec 31, 2018)

Right so now we get the reverse snobbery of ‘wow Kenny G is just so smoooth and you cats are just haters’, we’ll go enjoy your bottomless bread sticks and salad at Olive Garden on your Branson vacation


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

nikola said:


> You mean is he a gentle and emotional soul? Yes, he probably is. I guess that you think something else about him, but I probably wouldn't agree with you. I'm not saying that his music is truly 'emotional', but that's what he's trying to achieve most of the time.


Hmm? I'd say he saw a business opportunity in smooth jazz radio and capitalized on it. What he was trying to achieve is record sales and he succeeded.


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

Kenny G is in the same category as Grover Washington, Eric Kluge, Dave Sanborn, Dave Koz, and later in his career, George Benson: smooth, easy listening groove.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

SanAntone said:


> Kenny G is in the same category as Grover Washington, Eric Kluge, Dave Sanborn, Dave Koz, and later in his career, George Benson: smooth, easy listening groove.


Maybe as far as marketing and radio play but there is no way he is in the same league musically as George Benson, Sanborn, and Grover Washington. And I think you meant Earl Klugh.


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## Shaughnessy (Dec 31, 2020)

Odds and ends... The Miles story just cracked me up...

https://www.kuow.org/stories/conversation-saxophonist-kenny-g

"Kenny G On Paying Dues

Kenny G was on the road with Miles Davis for many months at a time. According to Kenny G, Davis didn't talk much, but he did teach Kenny G a big lesson. They were playing at Lincoln Center, two shows in one night. Kenny G opened the first show, then between shows, Davis paid him a visit.

"[Davis] comes into my dressing room, says, 'Man that was great. You were great. I'm going to open for you second show.' I'm thinking to myself, 'Yeah, you know what, I've made it.' By the time I got on stage it was midnight. Out of 3,000 people, there were about 100 left," laughed Kenny G. "That guy knew what he was doing. He just didn't want to stay there late." Kenny G said as an opening act, that's what happens. "Pay your dues and you get your chance later."

https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1993-09-26-ca-39024-story.html

Don Lucoff of New York City's DL Media, a longtime handler of both jazz and new adult contemporary artists, believes that Gorelick's success has been strongly associated with the emergence of NAC--the new adult contemporary radio format, an instrumental-oriented programming mix that can include artists ranging from George Benson and Brenda Russell to Donald Fagen and Ottmar Leibert.

"The ironic thing about the NAC stations," Lucoff says, "is that they use the word jazz for credibility--for so-called coolness, and a connection with something that's hip. But they don't play jazz. And that's the oxymoron of this whole NAC radio phenomenon--how they use jazz in a marketing sense and then play Kenny G instead of Joe Henderson."

"In fact, Gorelick's popularity may be the culmination of a saxophone splitting away from jazz that began nearly two decades ago with the frequent appearances of Michael Brecker and, especially, David Sanborn as featured soloists on a large number of pop recordings. Sanborn's blues-drenched style, strongly influenced by Hank Crawford and David (Fathead) Newman, had an energizing effect upon a generation of young saxophonists. Many imitated Sanborn to the point of slavishness."

Kenny G - "tries not to pay attention to the critics who "don't seem to get where I'm coming from."

"A lot of people don't realize," he says, "that playing a melody with the right kind of vibrato, and a certain specific tone and feeling, and the way you glissando up to a note, or fall off a note, are just as difficult, in their own way, as playing 20,000 notes that are in or outside of a key. Technique is technique.

"I mean, I'm not doing this for the recognition," Gorelick concludes with a sigh. "This is just what I do. It's not better, it's not worse, it's not easier, it's not harder. It's just me."

Kenny G Quotes and Sayings - Page 1

https://www.inspiringquotes.us/author/2586-kenny-g

"Well, Grover Washington was my main influence and when I went to college, I started listening to more of the jazz masters like Sonny Rollins, Cannonball Adderley, and John Coltrane."
-- Kenny G


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## Shaughnessy (Dec 31, 2020)

Chuck Mangione - 

"Mangione has been criticized by some for "selling out to pop music," while others declare he plays great jazz. Says Mangione:

"I don't believel you can sell out to pop. You can't sit down and decide to be popular. I know how I got to where I am -- I recorded my tunes and handed them to the record company! There was no formula. Through us, people have become aware of the Dizzy Gillespies and the Chick Coreas. I admire the purists , but they shouldn't say somebody else is doing something wrong."

Mangione feels his roots are in jazz. He grew up when jazz was popular -- Harry James, Stan Kenton, Louis Armstrong -- "a lot of honkers," he says.So the jazz influence is definitely there, even though Chuck's music appeals to a "pop" audience. Mangione believes in presenting music that doesn't assaul the listener's ears with excessive volume, and that is "played in tune."

"The reason our music is more acceptable from a public point of view," claims Mangione, "is that the audience can be knocked out by a great soloist, but they also come away with a song -- it's the melodic content that makes our music great."


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## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

Just relistened to some KG. The only thing that rubs me the wrong way is the production and sound engineering. If it was more spare, and they put the sax more in the foreground, I think it could go a long way to being more respectable. All he needs is a pretty good piano accompanist.


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

starthrower said:


> Maybe as far as marketing and radio play but there is no way he is in the same league musically as George Benson, Sanborn, and Grover Washington. And I think you meant Earl Klugh.


I meant style-wise. What's worse: A mediocre saxophonist playing easy-listening smooth "jazz" or a monster like George Benson doing it?

Yeah, I mis-spelled his Klugh's name.


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## nikola (Sep 7, 2012)

starthrower said:


> Hmm? I'd say he saw a business opportunity in smooth jazz radio and capitalized on it. What he was trying to achieve is record sales and he succeeded.


Isn't success and profit what they're all looking for?


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## nikola (Sep 7, 2012)

It's not fair to say that Kenny G isn't good at what he's doing. People just don't like smooth instrumental pop with jazz elements, so they say that 'he can't play' and similar things that are simply not true. I'm sure nobody is forcing anyone to like Kenny G's style of music. We all know that he is aware that so many people despise him and his music and he probably doesn't feel good because of that, but from what I saw, he has a good sense of humour and he doesn't pretend that he is some kind of genius. Some people simply like relaxing, simple/clear and sensual music that doesn't rape ears into forcing listener to like some mathematical/technical piece that exists for the sake of showing-off. 
Let him be!


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## nikola (Sep 7, 2012)

pianozach said:


> *For those that say Kenny G can't play.
> 
> *This is regardless of the subgenre / style in which he chooses to play, and his musical decisions. In general I don't listen to Kenny G; his usual musical style simply bores me, BUT he DOES actually know how to play. No, he's no Coltrane. He's not Cannonball Adderly, not even a Stan Getz.
> 
> But there ARE plenty of folks that DO enjoy his playing and albums. To each their own.


This is pretty good piece of music. Great improvisation. Not something that I would (often) listen to, but there's no doubt that he is actually a great sax player. This is also not corny like many of his other pieces.


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

nikola said:


> Isn't success and profit what they're all looking for?


I think that every musician would like to be appreciated and having at least financial stability, but I doubt there are a lot of musicians who decide to dedicate their life to jazz not knowing that will be a very hard path with a lot of uncertainty and under recognition. To be honest I think that someone who decides to play jazz in order to be rich and successful is completely out to lunch. I think that overwhelming majority of them play jazz for the love of music in the first place.


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

nikola said:


> It's not fair to say that Kenny G isn't good at what he's doing. People just don't like smooth instrumental pop with jazz elements, so they say that 'he can't play' and similar things that are simply not true


I actually absolutely love a lot of relaxing music and I remember that you commented on some relaxing jazz pieces I've posted in a very negative way, calling it background music and it was actually of an incredibly better quality of anything Kenny G. has ever played. So I'm not sure why you're taking a judgment on his music in a personal way, that at least for me, isn't certainly dictated by an adversion for relaxing music. I don't like his music not because it's relaxing or smooth or because it's simple, but because on a musical level is not interesting and besides the banality of it I find it also extremely sappy. I don't hate him, it's not personal, I think for what I've seen he's a nice guy (and I remember the video you posted where it was clear he has a sense of humour), and while I don't play sax I think there are a huge amount of musicians with a lot less technique then him (not that it matters). But as I've said, what I've heard of him is the equivalent of those cheap romance books or romance movies (obviously there are also great romance books and great romance movies) that have a lot of success too. You could say "let them be" for those works too, but I don't think it's strange that people really into music don't like his stuff.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

nikola said:


> Isn't success and profit what they're all looking for?


I don't believe this is the primary goal of dedicated musicians and artists. Reducing their music to insipid pap in order to get on the radio and sell a million records. Of course everyone needs to make money and survive but that goes without saying.


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## nikola (Sep 7, 2012)

starthrower said:


> I don't believe this is the primary goal of dedicated musicians and artists. Reducing their music to insipid pap in order to get on the radio and sell a million records. Of course everyone needs to make money and survive but that goes without saying.


On rateyourmusic.com Kenny G has about 100 or less ratings on his albums. Only one album has 601 ratings. 
On the other hand, Miles Davis has thousands and even tens of thousands ratings there for every album. Same with Coltrane. 
So, maybe Kenny G didn't want to reduce his smooth jazz to some intellectual noodling to sell a million records? 
You must be brave to make music that you want to make despite all the hatred that is sent towards you. So Kenny G is actually brave, underrated and underappreciated and the number of ratings on such sites shows that. 
It's pretty much a myth that there are hordes of people who like Kenny G. People don't even want to rate his albums. It proves that Kenny G is the one who is a true warrior here! Even despite everything tried to beat him down, he's still alive and making music that people hate and call 'insipid pap'. That actually says something about HIM.


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## nikola (Sep 7, 2012)

norman bates said:


> I actually absolutely love a lot of relaxing music and I remember that you commented on some relaxing jazz pieces I've posted in a very negative way, calling it background music and it was actually of an incredibly better quality of anything Kenny G. has ever played. So I'm not sure why you're taking a judgment on his music in a personal way, that at least for me, isn't certainly dictated by an adversion for relaxing music. I don't like his music not because it's relaxing or smooth or because it's simple, but because on a musical level is not interesting and besides the banality of it I find it also extremely sappy. I don't hate him, it's not personal, I think for what I've seen he's a nice guy (and I remember the video you posted where it was clear he has a sense of humour), and while I don't play sax I think there are a huge amount of musicians with a lot less technique then him (not that it matters). But as I've said, what I've heard of him is the equivalent of those cheap romance books or romance movies (obviously there are also great romance books and great romance movies) that have a lot of success too. You could say "let them be" for those works too, but I don't think it's strange that people really into music don't like his stuff.


Much of those 'smooth' jazz you posted was simply derivative jazz without any spark or originality at all. What Kenny G plays and compose actually have some themes and melodies while mostly calm jazz lacks some original ideas and it relies on standard chords and noodling without trying to bring you some interesting musical idea. That's the problem and that's why some people do like Kenny G while they don't like real smooth jazz because there is a difference between smooth instrumental pop with jazz elements and instrumental smooth jazz and the difference is in content and not in the smoothness level. Kenny G is still sappy, but there are also some little themes and nice melodies that people like to hear. I mean, there's a reason that, beside all hatred, there are some people that still like to listen to G's music. There is more musical banality in smooth jazz pieces you posted than in G's pieces even though he's also mostly banal, but he plays and composes from the pop point of view and not from jazz point of view and I think it's important to understand that. To listen some empty jazz templates is really not interesting to me and yes, I'd rather listen to Kenny G then unless someone creates some meaningful smooth jazz music.


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## pianozach (May 21, 2018)

nikola said:


> It's not fair to say that Kenny G isn't good at what he's doing. People just don't like smooth instrumental pop with jazz elements, so they say that 'he can't play' and similar things that are simply not true.. . . .
> 
> . . . Let him be!





norman bates said:


> I think that every musician would like to be appreciated and having at least financial stability, . . . . . .


Kenny G has a net worth of $100 million.

*Wikipedia*: _Kenny G's debut album was released on August 1, 1982. It went *gold*. His next two albums, G Force (1983) and Gravity (1985), both went *platinum*, but it was his fourth album, 1986's Duotones that catapulted the saxophonist to international stardom. That album went *5X Platinum* thanks largely to the single "Songbird" which to this day is one of only two instrumentals to reach the top 5 of the Billboard Hot 100.

Kenny's career skyrocketed from that point on. His next album sold 4 million copies. *His 1992 album "Breathless" sold 12 million.
*
His next album, 1994's "Miracles: The Holiday Album" sold 8 million copies and reached #1 on the Billboard Hot 100. Kenny G is one of the most popular and biggest-selling musicians ever, with *global sales totaling over 75 million records*._

*Kenny G took some of his early music royalties and bought shares in Starbucks in the mid 1980s. * You see, he majored in Accounting, so he'd have "something to fall back on" in case the music thing didn't work out. He's probably made as much money from Starbucks stock dividends as he has from his music career.

*KENNY G FUN FACTS:* As a side note, he earned first chair in his high school jazz band, and was on the golf team. Kenny G's career started with a job as a sideman for Barry White's Love Unlimited Orchestra in 1973; he was 17 and still in high school. He earned his BS in Accounting from the University of Washington, Seattle, where he graduated _magna cum laude_.

_*". . . People just don't like smooth instrumental pop with jazz elements . . . "*_*?*

Oh, yes they *DO*.

He's been nominated for 16 Grammy Awards, winning once. Sold 75 million records.


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## nikola (Sep 7, 2012)

pianozach said:


> Kenny G has a net worth of $100 million.
> 
> *Wikipedia*: _Kenny G's debut album was released on August 1, 1982. It went *gold*. His next two albums, G Force (1983) and Gravity (1985), both went platinum, but it was his fourth album, 1986's Duotones that catapulted the saxophonist to international stardom. That album went 5X Platinum thanks largely to the single "Songbird" which to this day is one of only two instrumentals to reach the top 5 of the Billboard Hot 100.
> 
> ...


That means that his music is so great that it speaks for itself and it does not need to be reviewed while you have to convince people with much talk that Miles Davis and Coltrane are actually great. NOW I understand :lol:
When I said 'People just don't like smooth instrumental pop with jazz elements' I was talking about people who hate that kind of music while they like real jazz for example. Of course there are people who like that style of music. 
It seems that Kenny G hit the G spot with his music!


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

nikola said:


> Much of those 'smooth' jazz you posted was simply derivative jazz without any spark or originality at all.


derivative of who exactly? I don't think you can make any name.

I remember posting things like Gerry Mulligan, George Shearing, Jim Hall, and similar musicians. And onestly you have a very superficial knowledge of the genre to argue about originality of being derivative. That music isn't derivative at all. And there was certainly much more originality there than in what Kenny G was playing. Shearing influenced Bill Evans for instance. Jim Hall has been a model for countless guitarists etc.



nikola said:


> What Kenny G plays and compose actually have some themes and melodies while mostly calm jazz lacks some original ideas and it relies on standard chords and noodling without trying to bring you some interesting musical idea. That's the problem and that's why some people do like Kenny G while they don't like real smooth jazz because there is a difference between smooth instrumental pop with jazz elements and instrumental smooth jazz and the difference is in content and not in the smoothness level. Kenny G is still sappy, but there are also some little themes and nice melodies that people like to hear. I mean, there's a reason that, beside all hatred, there are some people that still like to listen to G's music. There is more musical banality in smooth jazz pieces you posted than in G's pieces even though he's also mostly banal, but he plays and composes from the pop point of view and not from jazz point of view and I think it's important to understand that. To listen some empty jazz templates is really not interesting to me and yes, I'd rather listen to Kenny G then unless someone creates some meaningful smooth jazz music.


I didn't posted "smooth jazz". Those were cool jazz pieces. Still those were relaxing and "smooth" songs, but with much more substance (for instance: I'll remember April is a gorgeous tune with an unusual form, played by one of the first chamber jazz bands that had a completely new sound for the era) with sophisticated harmonies and emotional depth.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

He doesn't need any more money but if he did Nikola could apply for a job as Kenny G's publicist to convince the world that making loads of cash justifies universal respect for his crappy music.


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

Kenny G has been successful, at selling his music and apparently investing his money. He came up with a product and marketing plan and has been very successful, but he might as well be selling potato chips. He has never made any record that will be remembered or valuable as are _Kind of Blue_, or _Giant Steps_, or Keith Jarrett's _Koln Concert_, or Bill Evans' _Sunday Night at the Village Vanguard_ - to name just four jazz records.

He provides aural wallpaper for dinner parties. Nothing wrong with that, there is an audience for it. But don't compare it to the jazz musicians who make lasting art.


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## nikola (Sep 7, 2012)

This guy explained everything why we should all hate smooth jazz:


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## nikola (Sep 7, 2012)

starthrower said:


> He doesn't need any more money but if he did Nikola could apply for a job as Kenny G's publicist to convince the world that making loads of cash justifies universal respect for his crappy music.


Maybe you should try to be jazz publicist to convince people who hate jazz that it doesn't actually suck even though it sounds like it does.


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

nikola said:


> On rateyourmusic.com Kenny G has about 100 or less ratings on his albums. Only one album has 601 ratings.
> On the other hand, Miles Davis has thousands and even tens of thousands ratings there for every album. Same with Coltrane.


well, maybe because Davis and Coltrane are generally considered two of the greatest musicians of the last century, so people who are really into music and listen to thousand of albums (like people on RYM) are curious and interested? I mean, it's easier that people that want to explore serious literature will dedicate time to Shakespeare or to Fifty shades of grey? And obviously there's a huge amount of people interested in Fifty shades of grey, they aren't necessarily interested in exploring great literature.
That's why on rym it's like that. It's a site for music lovers, much more than for casual listeners that maybe have heard a tune in the dentist waiting room.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

nikola said:


> Maybe you should try to be jazz publicist to convince people who hate jazz that it doesn't actually suck even though it sounds like it does.


I think you're more qualified for the job. You can tell the people, especially Americans that they must listen to Miles or Herbie Hancock because they both made at least a few million dollars during their careers. That'll get 'em interested.


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## nikola (Sep 7, 2012)

starthrower said:


> I think you're more qualified for the job.


Yes, I am. And... thanks!


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

nikola said:


> Yes, I am. And... thanks!


great, now you have to tell anybody that Kind of blue is great because it's beloved and and extremely successful, it sold millions of copies and therefore nobody can argue about its quality... well unless you're a snob of course


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

Ok, enough of this silly thread. Different kinds of music is what makes the world go round so there's plenty of room for Kenny G, and Coltrane.


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## nikola (Sep 7, 2012)

I agree with that this guy said below the last youtube video I posted:

"I completely disagree with your statement. Jazz in its "classic" sense was the popular songs and dance music of the 20's, 30's and 40's which then became intellectualisd and therefore difficult to listen to for the casual music fan. That very casual listener would challenge your statement by arguing that when you intellectualise something it loses its mass appeal and becomes dull and boring only satisfying a metropolitan elite minority."

I can only say that I'm thankful that that new 'intellectualised' type of jazz is dying... it's probably already dead and I think that Kenny G was probably the first one who saved us from overblown and painful music that relied on some quazi intellectualised premise. Such jazz thought that it could be equal brother to classical music and that was its greatest delusion. Classical music never intended to be 'intellectual' because that's not the premise or idea of music at all. Classical music always cared both for IQ and EQ while intellectualised jazz only cared for IQ while not even being succesful in that so we can say that intellectualized jazz for sure only cared about EGO.


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## nikola (Sep 7, 2012)

norman bates said:


> great, now you have to tell anybody that Kind of blue is great because it's beloved and and extremely successful, it sold millions of copies and therefore nobody can argue about its quality... well unless you're a snob of course


Every word you said is 100% true, but in reverse


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

nikola said:


> Every word you said is 100% true, but in reverse


do you mean that the popularity of music isn't important and does not determine its quality? I totally agree.


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

nikola said:


> I agree with that this guy said below the last youtube video I posted:
> 
> "I completely disagree with your statement. Jazz in its "classic" sense was the popular songs and dance music of the 20's, 30's and 40's which then became intellectualisd and therefore difficult to listen to for the casual music fan. That very casual listener would challenge your statement by arguing that when you intellectualise something it loses its mass appeal and becomes dull and boring only satisfying a metropolitan elite minority."
> 
> I can only say that I'm thankful that that new 'intellectualised' type of jazz is dying... it's probably already dead and I think that Kenny G was probably the first one who saved us from overblown and painful music that relied on some quazi intellectualised premise. Such jazz thought that it could be equal brother to classical music and that was its greatest delusion. Classical music never intended to be 'intellectual' because that's not the premise or idea of music at all. Classical music always cared both for IQ and EQ while intellectualised jazz only cared for IQ while not even being succesful in that so we can say that intellectualized jazz for sure only cared about EGO.


this guy doesn't know what he's talking about. Mozart was considered a very intellectual artist in his day. Bach is considered very cerebral even today. I can't see a lot of casual listeners listening to the art of the fugue.

Also casual music fans are usually those who have a lot less interest in music, they care for it usually more as an excuse for social interactions then music itself. So why those who are very into music and they deeply love it should consider those who have just a superficial interest in it as the meter for what music should and shouldn't be?
The guy himself who did the video clearly hates jazz and shows that he doesn't understand it and he even uses a joke about people who don't understand jazz (the wrong notes) as it was serious.


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## nikola (Sep 7, 2012)

norman bates said:


> do you mean that the popularity of music isn't important and does not determine its quality? I totally agree.


You can be popular/unpopular and great and you can be also popular/unpopular and rubbish. I have my favorite musicians and some are more and some are less popular.


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## nikola (Sep 7, 2012)

norman bates said:


> this guy doesn't know what he's talking about. Mozart was considered a very intellectual artist in his day. Bach is considered very cerebral even today. I can't see a lot of casual listeners listening to the art of the fugue.
> 
> Also casual music fans are usually those who have a lot less interest in music, they care for it usually more as an excuse for social interactions then music itself. So why those who are very into music and they deeply love it should consider those who have just a superficial interest in it as the meter for what music should and shouldn't be?
> The guy himself who did the video clearly hates jazz and shows that he doesn't understand it (and he even uses a joke about poeple not understanding jazz as it was a serious statement)


Everything you just said, that guy can also say about jazz lovers that they don't actually 'understand' or 'hear' anything. Just because you don't agree with those two doesn't mean that they don't know what they're talking about. It's their opinion and it should be respected even if someone doesn't agree. 
I actually agree with both of them. I don't care about intellectualised jazz and I agree with their statements. I also like the sarcasm from that guy in the video.
Some people simply hate jazz and like smooth pop jazz. That doesn't make them ignorant. That shows that they respect their own feelings towards something they hear.


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

nikola said:


> You can be popular/unpopular and great and you can be also popular/unpopular and rubbish. I have my favorite musicians and some are more and some are less popular.


then why you are defending Kenny G because is popular and using the lack of popularity of Miles Davis (altough as Starthrower has said you're wrong, he was actually very popular) as an argument?


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## Bwv 1080 (Dec 31, 2018)

nikola said:


> I can only say that I'm thankful that that new 'intellectualised' type of jazz is dying... it's probably already dead and I think that Kenny G was probably the first one who saved us from overblown and painful music that relied on some quazi intellectualised premise. Such jazz thought that it could be equal brother to classical music and that was its greatest delusion. Classical music never intended to be 'intellectual' because that's not the premise or idea of music at all. Classical music always cared both for IQ and EQ while intellectualised jazz only cared for IQ while not even being succesful in that so we can say that intellectualized jazz for sure only cared about EGO.


Given that you demonstrate here you do not respect Jazz, why should anyone take seriously your opinion that Kenny G is a legit Jazz player?


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## nikola (Sep 7, 2012)

norman bates said:


> then why you are defending Kenny G because is popular and using the lack of popularity of Miles Davis (altough as Starthrower has said you're wrong, he was actually very popular) as an argument?


Yes, Kenny was/is very popular. Miles Davis is also very popular. So, what's your point then? Who is saying that I'm defending Kenny and if I'm defending him, why are you against anyone to defend Kenny G? 
Do you want to say that Kenny G is more popular than Miles Davis? I wouldn't agree. He is only way more hated. 
And just like I said... maybe Kenny's music speaks for itself so that's why people don't need to comment on his music while you must convince people how brilliant 'Kind of Blue' is since they're not able to hear that?
I also believe that Kenny G deserves to be defended. Don't you too? Or do you think that Kenny G endangers music that you think is way more 'advanced' than his music? Is that why jazz fans need to say many times that his music is crappy? 
Also, why are always jazz lovers on every topic about Kenny G? Do you actually subcosciously confirm with your appearance that Kenny G actually IS the REAL jazz and that you can't forgive him that he is more popular than all previous jazz musician throughout history and that he actually KILLED real jazz and left all jazz fans feeling completely defeated and destroyed? Are you saying that is what subconsciousness of jazz lovers contains?
Or are you saying something else?


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## nikola (Sep 7, 2012)

Bwv 1080 said:


> Given that you demonstrate here you do not respect Jazz, why should anyone take seriously your opinion that Kenny G is a legit Jazz player?


I never said that anyone should take my opinion seriously.
I also never said that Kenny G is jazz player. You probably didn't read what I wrote. Kenny G is playing instrumental pop with some jazz aroma.


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

nikola said:


> Everything you just said, that guy can also say about jazz lovers that they don't actually 'understand' or 'hear' anything. Just because you don't agree with those two doesn't mean that they don't know what they're talking about. It's their opinion and it should be respected even if someone doesn't agree.


Actually I can totally say that they don't know what they are talking about because I love jazz and I love classical music and I know that for anybody with very superficial knowledge things like "Classical music never intended to be 'intellectual'" or "think that Kenny G was probably the first one who saved us from overblown and painful music that relied on some quazi intellectualised premise." or "intellectualised jazz only cared for IQ" appear in absolute clarity like uninformed opinion of someone who doesn't know what he's talking about. One reason, in the previous post (a lot of classical muis is extremely intellectual music, and I'm not talking just of modernism in the 20th century, but of Bach, Mozart and Beethoven to name just three unknown guys).



nikola said:


> I actually agree with both of them. I don't care about intellectualised jazz and I agree with their statements. I also like the sarcasm from that guy in the video.
> Some people simply hate jazz and like smooth pop jazz. That doesn't make them ignorant. That shows that they respect their own feelings towards something they hear.


I like sarcasm too, but sarcasm when used by someone who doesn't know what he's talking about actually works against that person. And yes, in theory a person who likes smooth jazz and hates jazz isn't ignorant. But the reasons they are using make clear that they don't know what they are talking about. That video just says "hello, I'm a casual listener with a stereotyped vision of what jazz is, I've listened a few bebop tunes, I didn't liked and I formed my opinion on that".


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## nikola (Sep 7, 2012)

norman bates said:


> Actually I can totally say that they don't know what they are talking about because I love jazz and I love classical music and I know that for anybody with very superficial knowledge things like "Classical music never intended to be 'intellectual'" or "think that Kenny G was probably the first one who saved us from overblown and painful music that relied on some quazi intellectualised premise." or "intellectualised jazz only cared for IQ" appear in absolute clarity like uninformed opinion of someone who doesn't know what he's talking about. One reason, in the previous post (a lot of classical muis is extremely intellectual music, and I'm not talking just of modernism in the 20th century, but of Bach, Mozart and Beethoven to name just three unknown guys).
> 
> I like sarcasm too, but sarcasm when used by someone who doesn't know what he's talking about actually works against that person. And yes, in theory a person who likes smooth jazz and hates jazz isn't ignorant. But the reasons they are using make clear that they don't know what they are talking about. That video just says "hello, I'm a casual listener with a stereotyped vision of what jazz is, I've listened a few bebop tunes, I didn't liked and I formed my opinion on that".


You simply can't stand that some people think jazz is overblown crap, right? Is that why you call me and other people who don't like jazz 'uninformed' and 'ignorant'? 
I like classical music, but I don't care about jazz. I don't hate it. I just don't care about it. It's annoying and bland to my ears.


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

nikola said:


> You simply can't stand that some people think jazz is overblown crap, right? Is that why you call me and other people who don't like jazz 'uninformed' and 'ignorant'?
> I like classical music, but I don't care about jazz. I don't hate it. I just don't care about it. It's annoying and bland to my ears.


I think you've established that you don't care for jazz but enjoy Kenny G. That is a perfectly consistent statement. Why not quit while you're ahead?


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

nikola said:


> Yes, Kenny was/is very popular. Miles Davis is also very popular. So, what's your point then? Who is saying that I'm defending Kenny and if I'm defending him, why are you against anyone to defend Kenny G?
> Do you want to say that Kenny G is more popular than Miles Davis? I wouldn't agree. He is only way more hated.
> 
> And just like I said... maybe Kenny's music speaks for itself so that's why people doesn't need to comment on his music while you must convince people how brilliant 'Kind of Blue' is since they're not able to hear that?


if you're referring to rym... that's like I've said. Rym is a site for people who deeply love and care for music and listen to hundreds of albums every year. They care for quality, and it's not a surprise that a popular figure like Miles Davis who's also known for being someone who has changed the course of music many times and has influenced a lot of musicians in jazz and in a lot of other genres receives attention. Like I've said, if you have an interest in literature it's easier that you'll check Shakespeare and Joyce and Proust than something that is known for being not that great. You could (and rightly so) say that someone should judge for himself, but if you're looking a chart for masterpieces to listen because life is brief you will probably start from the albums at the top than those at the bottom.



nikola said:


> I also believe that Kenny G deserves to be defended. Don't you too? Or do you think that Kenny G endangers music that you think is way more 'advanced' than his music? Is that why jazz fans need to say many times that his music is crappy?
> 
> Also, why are always jazz lovers on every topic about Kenny G? Do you actually subcosciously confirm with your appearance that Kenny G actually IS the REAL jazz and that you can't forgive him that he is more popular than all previous jazz musician throughout history and that he actually KILLED real jazz and left all jazz fans feeling completely defeated and destroyed? Are you saying that is what subconsciousness of jazz lovers contains?
> Or are you saying something else?


those are interesting question for someone who's in all threads about jazz saying how much jazz is crap. But nonetheless... no, Kenny G. didn't destroy anything. One thing it's true, that with the advent of bebop in the forties the genre became a lot more intellectual and lost its popularity. So we are talking of decades before Kenny G., who actually wasn't certainly the first smooth jazz musician by the way.
But sure, radios have certainly made a damage to people programming simpler and simpler music. If someone does not have the possibility to listen to more sophisticated music and become familiar with it and all the nuances that musica can have, how then they can recognize its value, if everything they know is extremely basic? It's like knowing just red, yellow and blue and knowing nothing about the billions of different shades. I mean, I can tell this for myself too. When I started listening music and I didn't know anything about it, I remember even hating complex harmony. It was like "why this song is using those weird chords? Why they don't do something more simple?" I learned the value of it with time so I know how a casual listener could feel. And radios and producers, who push for very easy music are guilty of the ignorance of a lot of listeners.


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## nikola (Sep 7, 2012)

SanAntone said:


> I think you've established that you don't care for jazz but enjoy Kenny G. That is a perfectly consistent statement. Why not quit while you're ahead?


I don't even listen to him.
But you could enjoy... let the emotions flow through you while listening to this emotional and sentimental 'pathetique' piece. You guys deserved it:


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

nikola said:


> You simply can't stand that some people think jazz is overblown crap, right? Is that why you call me and other people who don't like jazz 'uninformed' and 'ignorant'?
> I like classical music, but I don't care about jazz. I don't hate it. I just don't care about it. It's annoying and bland to my ears.


dude, you've hated jazz for a long time, you've been in all threads about jazz saying how much jazz was crap and how people who listen to it are pretentious snobs for a long time. And I don't even know why you're talking like this, since you actually liked a lot of jazz pieces I posted quite recently.

And in any case I don't have a problem with people saying they don't like something I like, but I can see if an argument is valid or not, and while I don't pretend to be an expert (very far from it) with my superficial knowledge I know enough to be able to tell that the guy in the video and the guy of the comment don't really know what they are talking about (the guy of the comment even more, for the reasons I've said)


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## nikola (Sep 7, 2012)

norman bates said:


> if you're referring to rym... that's like I've said. Rym is a site for people who deeply love and care for music and listen to hundreds of albums every year. They care for quality, and it's not a surprise that a popular figure like Miles Davis who's also known for being someone who has changed the course of music many times and has influenced a lot of musicians in jazz and in a lot of other genres receives attention. Like I've said, if you have an interest in literature it's easier that you'll check Shakespeare and Joyce and Proust than something that is known for being not that great. You could (and rightly so) say that someone should judge for himself, but if you're looking a chart for masterpieces to listen because life is brief you will probably start from the albums at the top than those at the bottom.


I don't know who disinformed you, but RYM visit people all around the world who listen all styles of music and who like many styles that you probably hate. I'm also member on that site since forever. There are not some 'special' kind of people.



norman bates said:


> those are interesting question for someone who's in all threads about jazz saying how much jazz is crap. But nonetheless... no, Kenny G. didn't destroy anything. One thing it's true, that with the advent of bebop in the forties the genre became a lot more intellectual and lost its popularity. So we are talking of decades before Kenny G., who actually wasn't certainly the first smooth jazz musician by the way.
> But sure, radios have certainly made a damage to people programming simpler and simpler music. If someone does not have the possibility to listen to more sophisticated music and become familiar with it and all the nuances that musica can have, how then they can recognize its value, if everything they know is extremely basic? It's like knowing just red, yellow and blue and knowing nothing about the billions of different shades. I mean, I can tell this for myself too. When I started listening music and I didn't know anything about it, I remember even hating complex harmony. It was like "why this song is using those weird chords? Why they don't do something more simple?" I learned the value of it with time so I know how a casual listener could feel. And radios and producers, who push for very easy music are guilty of the ignorance of a lot of listeners.


Don't you think I'm entitled to my opinion and repeating it about jazz? 
Kenny G obviously destroyed SOMETHING since every jazz lover has to say many rude things about him. 
I would say that 'radios' with time killed 'simpler' jazz from 30's and 40's that was there for majority of people. Radio didn't kill anything. Intellectualized jazz was more popular back in 50's and 60's while today nobody cares anymore about such jazz. That 'complex' jazz is actually something more new, so people simply got tired of it during 80's. Things change over time no matter what. 
If your only argument for people hating jazz is that they are uneducated then you're simply comforting yourself into thinking that the reason not only why they hate jazz is that they're 'uninformed', but that such opinion makes you somehow intelectually superior to them since you know 'more'. Jazz is simply UGLY and BORING to many people. Why is it so hard to deal with it? Can't you just say that their taste suck and that they're deaf or 'ignorance' argument simply means that there's nothing to hear in jazz, but to understand it on 'intellectual' level? 
That's not why majority people listen to music. Most people want to enjoy in music and to feel someting. 
Just like there are OBJECTIVE reasons why you hate Kenny G, there are OBJECTIVE reasons why people can't stand jazz. There is also objective reason why I can't stand jazz and it doesn't have anything to do with my 'education' level about music.


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## nikola (Sep 7, 2012)

norman bates said:


> dude, you've hated jazz for a long time, you've been in all threads about jazz saying how much jazz was crap and how people who listen to it are pretentious snobs for a long time. And I don't even know why you're talking like this, since you actually liked a lot of jazz pieces I posted quite recently.
> 
> And in any case I don't have a problem with people saying they don't like something I like, but I can see if an argument is valid or not, and while I don't pretend to be an expert (very far from it) with my superficial knowledge I know enough to be able to tell that the guy in the video and the guy of the comment don't really know what they are talking about (the guy of the comment even more, for the reasons I've said)


If what you're saying is true, how is it possible then that at least a decent sax player like Kenny G plays crap and not some intellectualized masterpieces? How is it possible for a musician to be so uninformed and uneducated? How is it possible for him to like 'diarrhea' that he plays instead of playing some overblown and self-important noodling? Oh, let me guess... probably because money is more important to him than quality, right'? 
Or he is simply not talented enough to play REEEAAALLLLLLLLLL JJJJJJJJZZZZ? 
I'm pretty sure that you have the answer to everything that will keep alive your idea about 'listener ignorance'. 
If they taught us in school jazz, 100% of people would LOVE IT THEN, for sure, yeah... right.
Everyone who says he/she hates jazz, from housewife to musician with 50 years of musical experience, knows exactly why they hate jazz and it's not ignorance - it's feeling of pain and suffering while listening to pretentious and annoying noodling that should probably impress you with 'oh so hard level of playing'.


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

nikola said:


> I don't know who disinformed you, but RYM visit people all around the world who listen all styles of music and who like many styles that you probably hate. I'm also member on that site since forever. There are not some 'special' kind of people.


I'm a member too, and while they are not special people those are on average people who listen a lot of music, not casual listeners. And... I don't think there is any genre I hate. I'm not a big fan of hip hop (altough there are some things that I like) mostly because I don't have the patience to read extremely long lyrics in slang related to situations and people I don't know. But other than that... I decide song for song what I like, not for styles



nikola said:


> Don't you think I'm entitled to my opinion and repeating it about jazz?
> Kenny G obviously destroyed SOMETHING since every jazz lover has to say many rude things about him.


Like I've said I don't think he personally destroyed anything. He's just extremely popular, and with polarizing discussions where he's put against jazz (even if he probably doesn't even care about such comparisons) there are people expressing why they don't like his music. He's a bit the Nickelback of jazz, or the Allevi of classical music.



nikola said:


> I would say that 'radios' with time killed 'simpler' jazz from 30's and 40's that was there for majority of people. Radio didn't kill anything. Intellectualized jazz was more popular back in 50's and 60's while today nobody cares anymore about such jazz.


I do think that radios, tv and producers are very responsible for the ignorance of listeners. Not just for jazz, but for rock and classical music and actually a lot of other genres too.






"the young guys are more conservative and more dangerous to the art form than the guys with the cigar ever were"



nikola said:


> That 'complex' jazz is actually something more new, so people simply got tired of it during 80's. Things change over time no matter what.
> If your only argument for people hating jazz is that they are uneducated then you're simply comforting yourself into thinking that the reason not only why they hate jazz is that they're 'uninformed', but that such opinion makes you somehow intelectually superior to them since you know 'more'.


I don't think I'm intellectually superior because I know more about an argument. Because those same people who don't know about jazz can know a lot of things about other stuff that I don't know. Also, knowledge doesn't equate being wise. So I don't pretend I'm intellectually superior. But I'm not even for being politically correct and saying that an uninformed opinion has the same weight of the opinion of someone who knows about something.



nikola said:


> Jazz is simply UGLY and BORING to many people. Why is it so hard to deal with it? Can't you just say that their taste suck and that they're deaf or 'ignorance' argument simply means that there's nothing to hear in jazz, but to understand it on 'intellectual' level?


Like I've said, I don't have any problem with the fact that probably the vast majority of people don't like jazz music. But, in places dedicated to discussions about music there's an argument that I think it's not valid I can point it out.



nikola said:


> That's not why majority people listen to music. *Most people want to enjoy in music and to feel someting. *


hey, that's me 100%!


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

nikola said:


> I don't even listen to him.


If you don't listen to Kenny G why are you defending him so vociferously?

You seem to place a lot of importance on the fact that Kenny G has sold millions of records, but the reality is that just like classical music jazz is not a mass appeal art form. There have been only a handful of jazz records which have gone platinum or even achieved gold sales status. Again, neither has classical music. The appeal of both classical music and jazz is based on something other than commercial qualities.

I am not criticizing Kenny G and his music; I don't enjoy what he does, but a lot of people have. That's fine, but has nothing to do with me and my taste in music. I do like jazz quite a bit, and I also like classical music. I am happy with what I enjoy and am indifferent to Kenny G.

I am not sure what you hope to accomplish with your attacks on jazz and defense of Kenny G, something that is a little odd since you admit to not listening to his music.

But from where I sit, this thread has run its course.


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

nikola said:


> If what you're saying is true, how is it possible then that at least a decent sax player like Kenny G plays crap and not some intellectualized masterpieces? How is it possible for a musician to be so uninformed and uneducated?


I'm not sure if you're asking seriously but it's extremely easy actually. For instance having a great technique with an instrument doesn't mean that that person has also listened a lot of music (even because if one plays the instrument for six hours every day it's more difficult to listen a lot of music). And listening a lot of music obviously doesn't mean in a automatic way that someone understands all the music he has listened. So... yes, it's very very easy to be a proficient musician and uninformed and not educated at the same time.



nikola said:


> How is it possible for him to like 'diarrhea' that he plays instead of playing some overblown and self-important noodling? Oh, let me guess... probably because money is more important to him than quality, right'?


I actually think that he genuinely likes what he plays. Maybe it's a wrong impression, but I don't think he's a cynical guy who plays just for the money. He plays what he like, and he has made millions with it



nikola said:


> Or he is simply not talented enough to play REEEAAALLLLLLLLLL JJJJJJJJZZZZ?


it depends what you mean with talent. If you mean moving his fingers fast enough, I think he's already quite good. I'm not sure he would have the sensitivity to make what I consider interesting or great music with it.



nikola said:


> I'm pretty sure that you have the answer to everything that will keep alive your idea about 'listener ignorance'.
> If they taught us in school jazz, 100% of people would LOVE IT THEN, for sure, yeah... right.
> Everyone who says he/she hates jazz, from housewife to musician with 50 years of musical experience, knows exactly why they hate jazz and it's not ignorance - it's feeling of pain and suffering while listening to pretentious and annoying noodling that should probably impress you with 'oh so hard level of playing'.


that's like saying that everybody could be an architect, a surgeon, or a judge, even without having studied anything. But experience matter even for listeners. Not all opinions have the same weight, and if there's something pretentious is pretend otherwise. We don't know everything; there are things to learn, and even if music is universal it's also something that often have to be learned with time and experience.


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## nikola (Sep 7, 2012)

SanAntone said:


> If you don't listen to Kenny G why are you defending him so vociferously?


Why shouldn't I?



SanAntone said:


> You seem to place a lot of importance on the fact that Kenny G has sold millions of records, but the reality is that just like classical music jazz is not a mass appeal art form. There have been only a handful of jazz records which have gone platinum or even achieved gold sales status. Again, neither has classical music. The appeal of both classical music and jazz is based on something other than commercial qualities.
> 
> I am not criticizing Kenny G and his music; I don't enjoy what he does, but a lot of people have. That's fine, but has nothing to do with me and my taste in music. I do like jazz quite a bit, and I also like classical music. I am happy with what I enjoy and am indifferent to Kenny G.


Great :tiphat:



SanAntone said:


> I am not sure what you hope to accomplish with your attacks on jazz and defense of Kenny G, something that is a little odd since you admit to not listening to his music.
> 
> But from where I sit, this thread has run its course.


I'm not trying to accomplish anything and I don't attack jazz. It goes like this - I say something about jazz, but some people don't like what I have to say, so they say something about me and that's how the story goes. 
On the other hand, now you tell me, what do you think the purpose of forums are? For exchanging opinions, ideas... to argue to etc. - but that's only my opinion. You obviously see the problem in that. Lets close all threads then, so we don't need to talk about anything. Let us turn this forum into one big playlist and ask members to keep their mouth closed


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## nikola (Sep 7, 2012)

norman bates said:


> I'm not sure if you're asking seriously but it's extremely easy actually. For instance having a great technique with an instrument doesn't mean that that person has also listened a lot of music (even because if one plays the instrument for six hours every day it's more difficult to listen a lot of music). And listening a lot of music obviously doesn't mean in a automatic way that someone understands all the music he has listened. So... yes, it's very very easy to be a proficient musician and uninformed and not educated at the same time.
> 
> I actually think that he genuinely likes what he plays. Maybe it's a wrong impression, but I don't think he's a cynical guy who plays just for the money. He plays what he like, and he has made millions with it
> 
> ...


Yes, we can go on like this forever, but we can agree that we disagree on some things. I think it's perfectly fine not to like Kenny G or anyone/anything else. 
I still think it's important to understand that Kenny G is not 'a bad jazz musician' or 'bad sax player'. He simply plays music that jazz fans don't like and do not listen because his music isn't jazz at all. Kenny G is instrumental pop with elements of jazz. His improvisations are also really nice sometimes. He probably likes melodic music, so there's no reason to hate him because of that. He has a fan base despite all the hate and he obviously deserved that popularity.


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

nikola said:


> Yes, we can go on like this forever, but we can agree that we disagree on some things. I think it's perfectly fine not to like Kenny G or anyone/anything else.
> I still think it's important to understand that Kenny G is not 'a bad jazz musician' or 'bad sax player'. He simply plays music that jazz fans don't like and do not listen because his music isn't jazz at all.


I disagree with this. First of all, I don't think there's a standard jazz fan, everybody has his own point of view. My point of view is that I don't even care if his music is jazz or not, I like pop music, I love pop with elements of jazz, I like instrumental pop, I like other smooth jazz things, I like relaxing music, I like melodic music, I like a lot of simple music. I think his music is sappy and banal and it has the emotional depth of a bad chick flick. The fact that he plays jazz or not does not have anything to do with the fact that I don't like the music of him that I've heard.


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## nikola (Sep 7, 2012)

norman bates said:


> I disagree with this. First of all, I don't think there's a standard jazz fan, everybody has his own point of view. My point of view is that I don't even care if his music is jazz or not, I like pop music, I love pop with elements of jazz, I like instrumental pop, I like other smooth jazz things, I like relaxing music, I like melodic music, I like a lot of simple music. I think his music is sappy and banal and it has the emotional depth of a bad chick flick. The fact that he plays jazz or not does not have anything to do with the fact that I don't like the music of him that I've heard.


Yes, I know that you dislike his music. There's nothing wrong with that. I don't listen to his music either. Some people love it. I can't say that I like it or not. I simply don't care about his instrumental ballads, but I still find him musically really inoffensive so all that hatred towards him sometimes is really hilarious and fake in my opinion. 
I just don't think that many jazz lovers understand that comparing Kenny G to jazz is wrong on many levels even though there are some people who claim that Kenny G actually is also real jazz, but you still can't compare him to intellectualized jazz because it was never his intention to sound like Miles Davis. Of course, it doesn't matter if you listen to jazz and dislike Kenny G. You can also be a fan of country or pop music and still dislike him.

I also read here or somehwere else that someone met Kenny G on the street and at that instant moment he yelled "LOOK, IT'S KENNY G" and started to laugh, so it was obvious that Kenny felt kinda weird and bad at that moment. 
I mean, all that.. it's fine, but guy really didn't deserved all that hate. People sometimes act like they are personally insulted by his existence and that is so childish and really stupid.

So when someone like Pat Metheny says something like this it's obvious that he tries hard and force himself to be much as malicious as he can. This isn't even his opinion. He is angry and frustrated that Kenny G even exist. It's so childish and even moronic to act like that, especially if you're a musician. He really shows that he feels endangered because of Kenny G. He could said everything he said in normal manner without sounding like Kenny G took his job, cost him money and killed his pet.


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## nikola (Sep 7, 2012)

Also, isn't this part (almost) your typical jazz? What about improvisation by bass player near the end? Is he also that bad? Those guys really aren't that bad:


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

nikola said:


> Yes, I know that you dislike his music. There's nothing wrong with that. I don't listen to his music either. Some people love it. I can't say that I like it or not. I simply don't care about his instrumental ballads, but I still find him musically really inoffensive so all that hatred towards him sometimes is really hilarious and fake in my opinion.


well it's also probably because he's so famous. He's like Nickelback for rock music or (at least here in Italy) Giovanni Allevi for classical music. If he wasn't that famous he would probably not receive that kind of negative attention.



nikola said:


> I also read here or somehwere else that someone met Kenny G on the street and at that instant moment he yelled "LOOK, IT'S KENNY G" and started to laugh, so it was obvious that Kenny felt kinda weird and bad at that moment.
> I mean, all that.. it's fine, but guy really didn't deserved all that hate. People sometimes act like they are personally insulted by his existence and that is so childish and really stupid.


yes, I agree about this. I mean, at the end of the day even if he doesn't play music that I like he seems to be a nice guy (well that's at least my impression), so being rude especially in person in unnecessary.
Pat Metheny though has a point (altough I don't necessarily share his point of view), he clearly says that he usually doesn't like to bash any musician, but he was deeply offended by the fact that Kenny G. improvised over Louis Armstrong and I can understand why this changed completely for him his consideration of Gorelick.
I don't think that there's nothing more than that, even because Metheny himself is very, very successful, especially for a jazz musician.


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

nikola said:


> Also, isn't this part (almost) your typical jazz? What about improvisation by bass player near the end? Is he also that bad? Those guys really aren't that bad:


yes, that's totally jazz to me. And I don't find it that bad unlike other things I've heard of him.
Funnily enough, it reminds me a bit of this track of... Pat Metheny (the sax player is Michael Brecker)


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## nikola (Sep 7, 2012)

People like to have their sacred cows. I don't think that Kenny G wanted to show that he is on the same level as Louis Armstrong, but he actually took Armstrong's most simple and sentimental pop song that we all know and love and played some sax on it. That's what Kenny G actually does - he plays instrumental/sentimental pop music on sax. People hate him because he is the one who did it. If someone else did it they wouldn't care so much. 
I heard that 'collaboration' and I can't even remember how it sounds. I really don't care for that type of 'collaborations'. 
The funny thing is - 'What a Wonderful World' is everything that's not jazz and not what jazz fans listen. It's a pop song and much more appropriate for Kenny G than some real jazz player. That's what surprise me even more that jazz fans probably pretend to be in love with that song. It's corny/sappy/sentimental/mawkish pop song - everything that Kenny G is already trying to achieve.


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

nikola said:


> So when someone like Pat Metheny says something like this it's obvious that he tries hard and force himself to be much as malicious as he can. This isn't even his opinion. He is angry and frustrated that Kenny G even exist. It's so childish and even moronic to act like that, especially if you're a musician. He really shows that he feels endangered because of Kenny G. He could said everything he said in normal manner without sounding like Kenny G took his job, cost him money and killed his pet.


I thought Pat did speak in a normal manner and that everything he said was sincere. I have no idea if Kenny G is talented or has something of value to offer. All I know is that it's sappy and crappy, the kind of music I love to hate.

Why you stand up for music you don't want to listen to is odd; must be some hidden agenda you're not revealing or maybe you just enjoy arguing for its own sake.


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## nikola (Sep 7, 2012)

Bulldog said:


> I thought Pat did speak in a normal manner and that everything he said was sincere. I have no idea if Kenny G is talented or has something of value to offer. All I know is that it's sappy and crappy, the kind of music I love to hate.
> 
> Why you stand up for music you don't want to listen to is odd; must be some hidden agenda you're not revealing or maybe you just enjoy arguing for its own sake.


If I won't defend him WHO WILL? :lol:


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## nikola (Sep 7, 2012)

norman bates said:


> yes, that's totally jazz to me. And I don't find it that bad unlike other things I've heard of him.
> Funnily enough, it reminds me a bit of this track of... Pat Metheny (the sax player is Michael Brecker)


Video can't be seen.


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

There have been a few documentaries in recent times that are very well done (Velvet Underground, Frank Zappa, Beatles) but has anybody watched the documentary "Listening to Kenny G"?










The director, Penny Lane (yes, Penny Lane) wanted to understand why such a successful and beloved figure is also deeply hated by a lot of jazz fans and musicians, and as someone who has never been a fan of him to put it mildly, I thought it was a movie I had to watch. I was curious to understand the man behind that music and it's been an interesting view.

In a sense it reinforces what I thought of him and his music. From his "I don't know if I love music that much" to "I'm from Seattle and I live in a musical vacuum. I don't really listen to much music, I don't read the paper, I don't read magazines, I don't watch the news so I don't really know what's happening" to his comments about music seems to come out a person that seems as shallow and uninterested in the problems of the world as his work, a nice shallow wallpaper that seems to be the music equivalent of the paintings of Bob Ross. And he really talks like one of the women on that old sci fi movie, The Stepford wives, I was surprised that he didn't start repeating commercials.

The critic Ben Ratliff at one point says "I associate his music with a corporate attempt to soothe my nerves" wich seems exactly what he is: and apparently in China his song is used to signal the end of a working day. It's really like it's music made to calm and don't contest any authority.
He also seems to think that as a instrumentalist his ultimate scope is to impress with display of technique, which explains why he loves to show his prowess with circular breathing holding one note for a very long time (a thing that besides showing his technique does not have any sense, just a circus act) or playing fast runs.
One thing that the documentary makes also clear is that while he's very attentive to business (all those memes in recent years were just a strategy to remain relevant and make money basically) he plays what he plays because that's the music he likes (altough as I've said above, he himself says that he doesn't love music that much). At the end of the day he plays that music because that's what he is. 
As a person he seems to actually be a nice person, with certain aspects that are certainly admirable (his desire to learn, his dedication to his family and the instrument). He says that he's never been mad at anybody in his life because there's not positive side in being mad with someone, he accepts the harsh criticism of Pat Metheny with a smile saying that he's entitled to his own opinion and in a way he understands it, so at that point I wasn't sure if he's someone who has never seen the dark side of the human experience and that's why he and his music are like that or if he's able to be untouched by anything negative in a way or another. Or maybe it's just that when he hear someone criticizing him he just laugh all the way to the bank.

Here's a perfect review of the movie:
https://www.newyorker.com/culture/the-front-row/listening-to-kenny-g-is-an-ironic-masterpiece


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

It's kinda silly to hate the guy. I just have no interest in his music. I understand Metheny's objection to what he did recording the necro duo with Armstrong but in hindsight maybe he was a bit too militant in his reaction. And Metheny has had his own detractors concerning some of his mellow musical musings over the years.


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

starthrower said:


> It's kinda silly to hate the guy. I just have no interest in his music. I understand Metheny's objection to what he did recording the necro duo with Armstrong but in hindsight maybe he was a bit too militant in his reaction. And Metheny has had his own detractors concerning some of his mellow musical musings over the years.


yes, actually there's a very good criticism of what Metheny said. A critic that replied to that with something like "sacralization of art is what makes that art die", which I think it's true.


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## vincula (Jun 23, 2020)

I think Kenny G is a technically accomplished saxophonist with absolutely nothing musically interesting to say. He makes good money though, and nobody can hear you at public toilets until you flush. Hating him implies caring too much. Anything so shallow can easily be ignored. Life would be unbearable otherwise.

Regards,

Vincula


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

norman bates said:


> yes, actually there's a very good criticism of what Metheny said. A critic that replied to that with something like "sacralization of art is what makes that art die", which I think it's true.


I don't think that was the point for Metheny. His opinion was that Kenny G didn't have the musical goods or jazz chops to contribute anything to the Armstrong legacy. Honestly, I don't really know much about G's musical abilities, I just don't care for his insipid music.


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## pianozach (May 21, 2018)

Red Terror said:


> Does anyone like Herb Alpert? He's the only musician I can think of who's esthetic is comparable to G's. Then again, Herb is actually enormously talented.


I love *Herb Alpert & the TJB*.

However, put in proper perspective, he appropriated a style of music, put his own spin on it, and marketed it as exotica from south of the border.

Alpert was not Mexican. He was not Hispanic or Latino. Herb Alpert was born and raised in East L.A., the son of Tillie Goldberg and Louis Leib Alpert. His parents were Jewish immigrants to the U.S. from Radomyshl (in present-day Ukraine) and Romania.

And part of the joy I get is that my mom loved his music. She'd cue up a few LPs and clean the house, so there's that association with the joy my mom got from it. She had 7 of his first 10 albums. Most of it was very well arranged and performed pop, although there's a pretty awful monotone cover of WITH A LITTLE HELP FROM MY FRIENDS he released IN 1967 (It's almost as though he was trying to prove how terrible the Beatles were. But he wasn't, he's also done some pretty good covers of other Beatles songs).

But, then again, apart from passing him and his _*fictional*_ band off as being from Tijuana, he never pretended to be a serious jazz musician. And it was sort of a joke anyway.

Yeah, when he started releasing Tijuana Brass records in 1962 there was no Tijuana Brass. It was just Alpert overdubbing his own trumpet, slightly out of sync, with backing tracks usually recorded by The Wrecking Crew. By the end of 1964, after the records created a growing demand for live appearances by the Tijuana Brass, Alpert auditioned and hired a team of crack session men, which debuted in 1965. Alpert used to tell his audiences that his group consisted of *"Four lasagnas, two bagels, and an American cheese"*: John Pisano (electric guitar); Lou Pagani (piano); Nick Ceroli (drums); Pat Senatore (bass guitar); Tonni Kalash (trumpet); Herb Alpert (trumpet and vocal); and Bob Edmondson (trombone). So, he let his audiences know they weren't in any way "Mexican". [4 Italians, 2 jews, and an American mongrel]

Of course, as a kid, I didn't know that. There was no internet; I just assumed that they WERE Mexican.

And they were extremely popular: Two of his first three albums made the Top 10 (all three made Top 20 status). Of his next 5 albums, four peaked at #1 (and the other at #2).


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

I think everybody had the Whipped Cream album back in the 60s. I used to listen to A Taste Of Honey while staring at the album cover. But I soon forgot about Alpert and moved on to other music.


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## pianozach (May 21, 2018)

nikola said:


> On rateyourmusic.com Kenny G has about 100 or less ratings on his albums. Only one album has 601 ratings.
> On the other hand, Miles Davis has thousands and even tens of thousands ratings there for every album. Same with Coltrane.
> So, maybe Kenny G didn't want to reduce his smooth jazz to some intellectual noodling to sell a million records?
> You must be brave to make music that you want to make despite all the hatred that is sent towards you. So Kenny G is actually brave, underrated and underappreciated and the number of ratings on such sites shows that.
> *It's pretty much a myth that there are hordes of people who like Kenny G.* People don't even want to rate his albums. It proves that Kenny G is the one who is a true warrior here! Even despite everything tried to beat him down, he's still alive and making music that people hate and call 'insipid pap'. That actually says something about HIM.


*"It's pretty much a myth that there are hordes of people who like Kenny G."*

You don't like him. I don't listen to him. Pat Metheny thinks he sucks.

But you're wrong to claim that it's _"a myth that there are hordes of people who like Kenny G."_ *There ARE literally hordes of people that like Kenny G.
*
Kenny G is one of the best-selling artists of all time, with global sales totaling more than 75 million records. He has been nominated for 14 Grammys, winning one.

He also has a degree in accounting from the University of Washington, and graduated Phi Beta Kappa and magna cum laude.

Here; I posted this last June:



pianozach said:


> Kenny G has a net worth of $100 million.
> 
> *Wikipedia*: _Kenny G's debut album was released on August 1, 1982. It went *gold*. His next two albums, G Force (1983) and Gravity (1985), both went *platinum*, but it was his fourth album, 1986's Duotones that catapulted the saxophonist to international stardom. That album went *5X Platinum* thanks largely to the single "Songbird" which to this day is one of only two instrumentals to reach the top 5 of the Billboard Hot 100.
> 
> ...


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

People will buy whatever gets promoted aggressively. Kenny G got a ton of airplay on smooth jazz and pop radio stations. Kiss sells millions of records but I don't think it's because the music is of a high caliber. I don't know anybody who listens to Kenny G so I guess I hang with a different crowd. 

But I wonder how many people consume this stuff by default because they never heard any jazz played by superior talents? The music gets no exposure on popular outlets.


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## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

Kenny G is to 'jazz' what André Rieu is to 'classical'. Both appeal to predominantly casual fanbases but they know precisely how to satisfy their adherents so it's job done. I wouldn't ever want to get within ten miles of hearing anything by either of them but it's not about me - hundreds of thousands of others groove to what they do and good luck to them!


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

starthrower said:


> People will buy whatever gets promoted aggressively. Kenny G got a ton of airplay on smooth jazz and pop radio stations.


He was promoted aggressively and there's no doubt about it. Gorelick himself says that a big part of his success is due to the fact that Clive Davis pushed his music on the radios. It's interesting that recently I watched the documentary about Frank Zappa, and the fact that suddenly he had a hit with Valley Girl is due to the fact that Moon Zappa asked to some radio to play the song, and people kept asking to listen to it.
However I'm not sure that many of his fans would appreciate real jazz, at least with casual listening.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

Zappa's audience is fairly diverse. Some are simply Zappa freaks but others are jazz and modern classical fans. According to Frank you had to play the political game to get your music played on popular radio. It was a payola scheme or dropping by the radio stations with free bags of weed. Or the occasional fluke when some DJ played something offbeat and it resonated with listeners who called in asking for more. The payola scheme pretty much excluded independent artists who couldn't or wouldn't afford it like Zappa.


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## pianozach (May 21, 2018)

starthrower said:


> People will buy whatever gets promoted aggressively. Kenny G got a ton of airplay on smooth jazz and pop radio stations. Kiss sells millions of records but I don't think it's because the music is of a high caliber. I don't know anybody who listens to Kenny G so I guess I hang with a different crowd.
> 
> But I wonder how many people consume this stuff by default because they never heard any jazz played by superior talents? The music gets no exposure on popular outlets.


If *Yoko Ono* had been "promoted aggressively" by promoters giving weed to DJs, garnering her excessive airplay, I sincerely doubt she'd have been widely accepted by the masses, nor would it translate into extraordinary album sales for her.

That only works if people actually LIKE what's being pushed.

Remember *"New Coke"*? Man, they marketed THAT aggressively. Never caught on.


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

pianozach said:


> If *Yoko Ono* had been "promoted aggressively" by promoters giving weed to DJs, garnering her excessive airplay, I sincerely doubt she'd have been widely accepted by the masses, nor would it translate into extraordinary album sales for her.
> 
> That only works if people actually LIKE what's being pushed.
> 
> Remember *"New Coke"*? Man, they marketed THAT aggressively. Never caught on.


Look, the average consumer of music does not have very sophisticated taste. So, this is why Kenny G will sell more records than Wayne Shorter.

But that does not make Kenny G a Jazz saxophonist.

The best thing about this thread is I found out that Herb Albert was not Hispanic, and Jewish, to boot! Who knew?


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

pianozach said:


> If *Yoko Ono* had been "promoted aggressively" by promoters giving weed to DJs, garnering her excessive airplay, I sincerely doubt she'd have been widely accepted by the masses, nor would it translate into extraordinary album sales for her.
> 
> That only works if people actually LIKE what's being pushed.
> 
> Remember *"New Coke"*? Man, they marketed THAT aggressively. Never caught on.


Not everything that it's pushed will obviously be liked by everybody. 
But being accostumed to a certain kind of music, repeated listenings of a certain style can make a huge difference. I like now a lot of things that when I was younger I disliked or didn't understand, I needed time to familiarize and get those things.
That's one of the problems of mainstream music. Producers and radios give the audience music that is easier and easier to digest because they think it's what the audience wants, but since the audience has less familiarity with different kinds of music they are one if not the reason of the fact that those listeners are more and more unable to appreciate more creative, complex and sophisticated music and therefore they ask for banal stuff.


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## Red Terror (Dec 10, 2018)

SanAntone said:


> ...I found out that Herb Albert was not Hispanic, and Jewish, to boot! Who knew?


I did.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

pianozach said:


> If *Yoko Ono* had been "promoted aggressively" by promoters giving weed to DJs, garnering her excessive airplay, I sincerely doubt she'd have been widely accepted by the masses, nor would it translate into extraordinary album sales for her.
> 
> That only works if people actually LIKE what's being pushed.
> 
> Remember *"New Coke"*? Man, they marketed THAT aggressively. Never caught on.


My point was that there is a whole world of music that never sees the light of day so for people who have never heard anything but Kenny G or Herb Alpert, they're not going to buy a Ben Webster or Gerry Mulligan record because they don't know it exists. Yoko Ono is an extreme example which isn't in the same universe as a saxophone instrumental with a melody.

New Coke was just a gimmick to reinforce how great the original Coke is in the mind of the public. I don't believe it was ever produced as a viable replacement or alternative. The public wasn't supposed to like it. It was merely a psychological marketing scheme to keep people craving for the original health destroying poison in a bottle.


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