# Use of piano in orchestral works (not piano concertos)



## 13hm13 (Oct 31, 2016)

Just listening to Barber's VC, and noted subtle use of piano ... and this got me thinking a bit. 
Why isn't piano used more in symphonic/orchestral works (other than the obvious PCs)?

Or maybe I've been negligent in my listening?

So, please name some symphonic/orchestral works -- not PCs -- that incorporate piano.

Some related discussion here:
https://music.stackexchange.com/que...ing-the-piano-into-the-orchestra-when-and-why


> The earliest composed orchestral work which includes a piano that I'm aware of is Camille Saint-Saëns' Symphony No. 3 (1886). Other examples:
> 
> Symphony No. 8 (Gustav Mahler, 1906)
> Symphony No. 1 (Dmitri Shostakovich, 1925)
> ...


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## consuono (Mar 27, 2020)

Stravinsky's Symphony of Psalms

Ps...iirc the revised version of Prokofiev's fourth symphony and also his sixth call for a piano. There may be others, I'm not sure


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

Bernstein - Symphony No.2 Age Of Anxiety
Szymanowski - Symphony No.4
Ives - Symphony No.4
Beethoven - Choral Fantasy


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## consuono (Mar 27, 2020)

Oh yeah, and D'Indy's Symphony on a French Mountain Air


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## GucciManeIsTheNewWebern (Jul 29, 2020)

Not a piano but I find it really cool how Bax used an organ i bis 2nd Symphony to create a bleak layer of low sound to add to the texture. I love when composers think outside the box like that


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

Almost anything by Martinu


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)




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## consuono (Mar 27, 2020)

> Symphony No. 8 (Gustav Mahler, 1906)


I don't know what _isn't_ in that one.


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## Allegro Con Brio (Jan 3, 2020)

It’s used to great effect in Respighi’s Pines of Rome


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## senza sordino (Oct 20, 2013)

Villa Lobos Bachianas Brasileras #2. In particular the fourth movement "The Train on the Caipira"


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## Fabulin (Jun 10, 2019)

Almost anything by Korngold and Williams. Also the Addinsel-inspired pieces.


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## 13hm13 (Oct 31, 2016)

Fabulin said:


> Almost anything by Korngold and Williams.


I was going to mention film music but wanted to stay purely classical. That said, I love film music, and think much of it is absolutely "classical". Of note, James Newton Howard uses piano effectively in scores ... especially as cadenza.


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## Ethereality (Apr 6, 2019)

I agree, piano has always sounded good as a secondary symphonic instrument. Speaking of film scores this is an AWESOME use of piano. Captures a kind of open canyon sense. The best score I've ever heard is Lost In San Francisco but this one's not bad.






Lost in San Francisco piano: 




Petruchka


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## RICK RIEKERT (Oct 9, 2017)

Oliver Messiaen uses the piano as a solo instrument in his _Turangalîla-Symphonie_ and _Des Canyons aux Étoiles_.

Bartók's _Music for strings, percussion and celesta_ uses piano as a percussion instrument

Debussy's _Printemps_ has a part for piano four hands which blends in beautifully with the orchestra.

Rachmaninoff's _Symphonic Dances_ includes a restrained use of the piano as part of the background which is wonderful.

Orff's _Carmina Burana_ uses two pianos.

Schnittke's First _Concerto Grosso_ has a prepared piano in it.

Copland's _Appalachian Spring_ uses the piano prominently and brilliantly. The 2nd movement of his _Symphony No. 3_ also includes piano.


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## Prodromides (Mar 18, 2012)

senza sordino said:


> Villa Lobos Bachianas Brasileras #2. In particular the fourth movement "The Train on the Caipira"


There's more piano & orchestra with Villa-Lobos (besides his 5 concerti).

Chôros No. 8 calls for 2 pianos, but Chôros No. 11 is the large scale concerto-like work for piano & orchestra.


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## Prodromides (Mar 18, 2012)

Be mindful, as well, that some composers have written piano concertos ... but christened such with labels, under which they might be better known. For example, Horațiu Rădulescu called his PC simply "The Quest".

Others wrote something similar to a concerto, but elected to use words like "Rhapsody" as alternatives.
[_Poème pour piano et orchestre_ by Louis Vierne, to cite one.]

But wait ... there are more (of course!). Merely a sampling below:

*Erikhthon* by Xenakis
*Movements* by Stravinsky
*Tableaux* by Lazarof
*Ballade* by Koechlin
*Antiphonies* by Birtwistle
plus Morty Feldman's [titled (not surprisingly)] *Piano and Orchestra*

One of the biggest specimens to ensnare, though, is this all-Messiaen CD album on his works for piano & orchestra:


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## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

Prokofiev wrote piano parts in symphonies 2, 4, 5, 6 and 7.
Tchaikovsky includes a part in Sleeping Beauty.
Berlioz sort of wrote one in Symphonie Fantastique: it's an alternative in places where church bells aren't available.


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## DeepR (Apr 13, 2012)

I can add one of my favorite pieces: Scriabin's Prometheus: The Poem of Fire


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## Alfacharger (Dec 6, 2013)

"The earliest composed orchestral work which includes a piano that I'm aware of is Camille Saint-Saëns' Symphony No. 3 (1886). Other examples:"

Liszt Totentanz completed on 1849






Niels Gade Symphonie #5 of completed in 1852


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## Roger Knox (Jul 19, 2017)

Although there aren't absolute rules, I think it's necessary to distinguish between:

(1) _concertante_ works, in which the pianist is a soloist although the piece is not a concerto; 
(2) _symphonies_, in which the pianist is a soloist, whether or not the piece is entitled "Symphony Concertante;" 
(3) _orchestral works_, in which the piano is an instrument in the orchestra.

In (1), the piano part stands out as a separate component that interacts with the orchestra and may have solo passages; it is often played by a featured guest soloist. Examples are Fauré's Ballade for Piano and Orchestra and Franck's Symphonic Variations for Piano and Orchestra. 
In (2), the piano has the same role as in (1) but the work is a symphony. Examples are D'Indy's Symphony on a French Mountain Air and Bernstein's Symphony No. 2: Age of Anxiety.
In (3) the piano adds its distinct timbre and style to the orchestral palette and at most has passages that stand out briefly, as do other instruments in the orchestra; it is played by a pianist (often also the celeste player) who is on staff or contracted by the orchestra. Examples are the Third Symphony of Saint-Saëns* and Shostakovich's Symphony No. 5.

The above remarks apply to the 19th century and the first half of the 20th, approximately. In music of earlier centuries and in advanced modernist and avant-garde compositions the terminology and conceptual bases may differ.

* In Saint-Saëns 3 there is a part for solo piano and then a part for piano duet (4 hands, 1 piano).


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## MusicSybarite (Aug 17, 2017)

Rachmaninov's _Symphonic Dances_. Many don't consider him like an accomplished orchestrator, but he was rather good in his last works.


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## mparta (Sep 29, 2020)

https://i.postimg.cc/jSXXChF7/Ravel-Schmitt-Larderet.jpg

Obviously not the Ravel, but...

The Schmitt is transcribed from a solo piano work.

This is wonderful music! Please try it!









These non-concerto pieces speak to Schmitt's interest in avoiding the classical to-and-fro conversation of the concerto.

This:https://florentschmitt.com/2012/10/1...me-to-america/, text below

Symphonie Concertante: When Florent Schmitt Came to America (1932)
October 18, 2012 · by Phillip Nones
Boston Symphony OrchestraAll his life, Florent Schmitt was an inveterate traveler … but we think of his globetrotting primarily in connection with Europe, the Mediterranean Region, the Middle East, South Asia and Brazil, rather than North America.

And in fact, the composer was to travel to the United States only one time his life - in 1932 at the invitation of his friend Serge Koussevitzky, conductor of the Boston Symphony Orchestra.

Maestro Koussevitzky had commissioned Schmitt to write a piano concerto to commemorate the BSO's 50th anniversary, a work he composed in 1931 and premiered with the orchestra in Boston on November 25, 1932. Schmitt played the challenging piano part himself.

Florent Schmitt Symphonie Concertante Boston Symphony 1932 program
The world premiere performance of Florent Schmitt's Symphonie Concertante was presented by the Boston Symphony Orchestra in 1932. The composer was at the keyboard; Serge Koussevitzky conducted.

This piece stands as a unique composition among the composer's works. Carrying the opus number 82, it represents a clear break from the style of Schmitt's earlier works - far more modern, even dissonant.

Moreover, it isn't a concerto in the conventional sense. Instead, the composer named it Symphonie Concertante. According to the musical essayist Benoit Deuteurtre, "Schmitt, who did not really appreciate the conventional dialogue between soloist and orchestra, preferred to merge the piano and orchestra."

It's an amazing piece of music. It is also less immediately "approachable" than many other works by the composer, and for some listeners the jagged harmonies and spikey rhythms will come as a surprise. Indeed, at the time of its composition more than one person dubbed the piece the Symphonie déconcertante ("Disconcerting Symphony") for precisely that reason.

But if you listen closely and allow yourself to become enveloped in the grand musical fresco that Schmitt has created, you'll discover an inventiveness and brilliance that is tremendously rewarding on an emotional level.

Florent Schmitt: Symphonie Concertante score
Piano reduction score for Florent Schmitt's "Symphonie Concertante," dedicated to Serge Koussevitzky and the Boston Symphony Orchestra. Schmitt himself performed the difficult piano part at the Boston world premiere.

Speaking for myself, I find new nuances every time I listen to this work, and I'm continually amazed at the rich palette of colors the composer conjures up in the orchestra: great blocks of sound that are nothing short of awe-inspiring.

Jean-Christian Bonnet, a classical music connoisseur who is an evangelist on YouTube for French classical composers, is quite keen on the Symphonie Concertante, remarking that it is "a highly original work that sits at the crossroads of different influences - very modern in its style yet very romantic in its mood."

I agree completely with that assessment. And consider this commentary from Alan Ding, another connoisseur of music from this particular "time and place":

"An absolute masterwork that exemplifies the best of late-Romanticism, Impressionism, and innovative Modernism; Schmitt's writing is not only unique but incredibly polished, mature, and natural.

In my opinion, his harmonic language rivals that of Roslavets and Stravinsky in terms of complexity (yet to me, Schmitt's harmonic innovation feels much more natural), and his pianistic figuration rivals Rachmaninov in terms of elegance ([although] clearly Schmitt's style is far removed from that of Rachmaninov).

The orchestration is dense, but highly evocative and entirely justified; Schmitt does not waste a single note for any instrument. Yet, despite the textural and harmonic innovations that Schmitt presents, the work, I feel, is not inaccessible. Emotionally appealing to the untrained ear and not needlessly abstract or jarring, it is chock-full with the 'make it new' fervor of modernism, giving it a most refreshing sound [even as it] continues the Romantic tradition of placing feeling at the center of the work. Truly exemplifying the constructive improvement of art over time, this Symphonie Concertante has become one of my favorite pieces I've ever come across."

David Robertson conductor
David Robertson

Like many of Schmitt's scores, the Symphonie Concertante is fiendishly difficult for both the pianist and orchestra players. This fact may have conspired to keep it from becoming standard concerto repertoire - although we do know that a number of important conductors chose to program the work in the years following the Koussevitzky premiere including Désiré Defauw, Désiré Inghelbrecht, Dmitri Mitropoulos, Pierre Monteux and Paul Paray.

Even better for us, the one recording that's ever been made of this music is mighty fine.

Florent Schmitt Symphony Concertante (Valois)
Only commercial recording: Pianist Hüseyin Sermet with David Robertson and the Monte-Carlo Philharmonic.

Recorded in 1993, it is a top-notch interpretation. The impressive Franco-Turkish pianist Huseyïn Sermet turns in a Herculean performance on the keyboard, and he's given grand support from conductor David Robertson and the Orchestre Philharmonique de Monte-Carlo. (In fact, it's one of the most polished performances I've ever heard from this orchestra.)

Thanks to Jean-Christian Bonnet's excellent and long-running YouTube music channel, you can sample all three movements of this extraordinary composition:

I: Assez Animé - Parts 1 and 2
II: Lent - Parts 1 and 2
III: Animé - Parts 1 and 2
Hüseyin Sermet pianist
Huseyin Sermet

[For those who would prefer to listen to the composition without a break as well as to follow along with a two-piano reduction of the score, the entire piece has been uploaded to YouTube as a single track, synchronized with the score, and can be viewed here.]

From the opening explosion of sound to the thrilling flourish at the end, you will not be disappointed - or so I think. But I welcome your comments and observations about the music.


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## Roger Knox (Jul 19, 2017)

MusicSybarite said:


> Rachmaninov's _Symphonic Dances_. Many don't consider him like an accomplished orchestrator, but he was rather good in his last works.


And he was an excellent conductor too, part of the reason for his fine orchestrations. Looking into his writing for piano or for orchestra, it's really cool to notice things going on in the inner voices that contribute to the texture and colour of the whole. It's only recently that the torrent of undeserved criticism directed at R. has abated. In musical academia I argued the merits of R. many times, until making the mistake of doing that with the boss who dismissed my "vulgarity."


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## Roger Knox (Jul 19, 2017)

Concerning the use of "Concerto" as a title for a piano-orchestra work:

(1) One 19th century variant is the _Konzertstück_, (Fr. Morceau de concert; En. Concert Piece). It is a piece in one or more movements that is shorter than a concerto, and possibly less difficult or lighter in mood. (A _concertino_ may in addition have a smaller orchestra, even just a few instruments.)

(2) While one might say the concert piece remains within the concerto family, shorter pieces for, e.g. piano and orchestra, with titles such as romance, ballad, fantasy, or rhapsody are _concertante works_. These titles they may use are also found in "character pieces" for solo piano or other instruments. There are also larger concertante works that may have literary or descriptive titles: Ode to Spring (Raff), Totentanz (Liszt), Tag- und Nachtstücke (Braunfels) and Eclogue (Finzi).

(3) There was a reaction against the virtuoso piano concerto: by mid-century some had tired of the empty display and mawkish sentimentality of the genre. One answer was the more substantial concerto for piano and orchestra of Schumann and Brahms. Another, in France, was avoiding the both the title and its connotations altogether and writing a different kind of piece, as with Godard's Introduction and Allegro, D'Indy's Symphony on a French Mountain Air, Koechlin's Ballade, Fauré's Fantaisie, or Tournemire's Rhapsody. The concerto was never abandoned, though, and it made a comeback in the twentieth century.


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## Pat Fairlea (Dec 9, 2015)

Not forgetting, please, William Walton's Sinfonia Concertante.
Conducted here by Walton at a slightly more measured pace than is usual in more recent recordings. Phyllis Sellick at the keyboard.


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## 13hm13 (Oct 31, 2016)

Pat Fairlea said:


> Not forgetting, please, William Walton's Sinfonia Concertante.
> Conducted here by Walton at a slightly more measured pace than is usual in more recent recordings. Phyllis Sellick at the keyboard.


Walton, in the 1981 documentary noted he never learned to play the piano (may be also to use it as composition tool, as many composers do)


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## EmperorOfIceCream (Jan 3, 2020)

Berg's Lulu and Lulu Suite, Bartok's Miraculous Mandarin, Dutilleux's L'arbre des songes


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## kyjo (Jan 1, 2018)

I absolutely love the inclusion of piano in the orchestral texture! It adds so much color and a hard edge when needed. Martinů and Prokofiev were two composers who used piano in their orchestrations frequently and to great effect. Totally agree with those who already mentioned Rachmaninoff's Symphonic Dances, Stravinsky's Petrushka, S-S's Organ Symphony, and Copland's Appalachian Spring and 3rd Symphony. Here are some other great examples:

*Peterson-Berger: Symphonies no. 3 and 4.* In the 3rd, he uses the piano to create a magical wintry atmosphere with a tangible "glint" to the textures. It's possibly my favorite use of orchestral piano in any work, it's so imaginative! In the 4th, it's used to help convey the hustle and bustle of downtown Stockholm.

*Atterberg: Symphony no. 2*, especially in the slow movement. It helps create the magical atmosphere of a starry Nordic sky overlooking some grand vista. I believe he also uses piano in his much darker 5th Symphony.

*Canteloube: Chants d'Auvergne.* These songs would be nothing without the superb orchestration that Canteloube dresses them up in. To me, the piano part helps conjures up such idyllic images such as that of the reflection of sunlight on water.

*Tubin: Symphony no. 2 "Legendary".* Tubin uses the piano to drive the relentless chugging ostinatos that pervade the work, as well as accompany the sublime violin coda which ushers in the coda of the finale. I believe he also uses the piano in his 6th Symphony.

*Maximilian Steinberg: Symphony no. 2, ending.* In the magnificent coda to this symphony, Steinberg uses the piano to imitate massive, deep bell tones in its lowest register. Unforgettable!

*Shostakovich: Symphony no. 1.* It is possible that Shostakovich picked up some clues on orchestral piano writing from his teacher, Steinberg. The prominence of the piano is perfect for the skittery nature of much of this symphony. There's also a great piano part in the 5th Symphony.

*Kabalevsky: Symphony no. 4.* His orchestration is quite similar to Prokofiev's in that he uses the piano in its deep bass register for a powerfully sonorous effect. BTW if you have any doubts about Kabalevsky, just sample the shatteringly powerful coda of the 1st movement. Wow!

*Creston: Symphony no. 2.* One of my favorite American symphonies. There's some beautifully lyrical bits in the first movement where the piano plays rippling scales and arpeggios underneath the melodic line. Amongst American composers, Barber (esp. in the Violin Concerto), Diamond (esp. in the 3rd and 4th symphonies), and the aforementioned Copland also made great use of the piano in their orchestral works.

I'm sure there's others I'm forgetting...


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

13hm13 said:


> Just listening to Barber's VC, and noted subtle use of piano ... and this got me thinking a bit.
> Why isn't piano used more in symphonic/orchestral works (other than the obvious PCs)?


I don't have an opinion about it but I've heard more than once professional pianists saying that it's because piano doesn't really blend with the orchestra.


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## progmatist (Apr 3, 2021)

Alfacharger said:


> "The earliest composed orchestral work which includes a piano that I'm aware of is Camille Saint-Saëns' Symphony No. 3 (1886).


Saint-Saëns' Organ Symphony incorporates not just piano, but piano for 4 hands.


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## chu42 (Aug 14, 2018)

hammeredklavier said:


>


This is a concertante work, like Rachmaninov's Rhapsody on a Theme of Paganini.


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## HenryPenfold (Apr 29, 2018)

I've come late to this thread and not read all the posts, but Shostakovich's Symphony No.5 is the first and most obvious symphony to spring to mind. Forgive me if it's already been mentioned .........


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## Orfeo (Nov 14, 2013)

Alexander Glazunov: Ballet "The Seasons"
Hugo Alfven: Symphony no. IV "From the Outermost Skerries"
Kurt Atterberg: Symphony no. V


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## Vasks (Dec 9, 2013)

de Falla's Ritual Fire Dance has a catchy piano part


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## Rogerx (Apr 27, 2018)

Saint-Saëns' Organ Symphony must be mentioned , if not it is No 3.


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## consuono (Mar 27, 2020)




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## mikeh375 (Sep 7, 2017)

Henze's First Symphony utilises the piano rather neatly and orchestrally....


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

HenryPenfold said:


> I've come late to this thread and not read all the posts, but Shostakovich's Symphony No.5 is the first and most obvious symphony to spring to mind. Forgive me if it's already been mentioned .........


I'm in the same position and agree about Shostakovich 5. But then his 1st might be an even better example. I am also thinking of Prokofiev's 6th. And if it hasn't already been mentioned Messiaen's Turangalila Symphony


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## mikeh375 (Sep 7, 2017)

Enthusiast said:


> I'm in the same position and agree about Shostakovich 5. But then his 1st might be an even better example. I am also thinking of Prokofiev's 6th. And if it hasn't already been mentioned Messiaen's Turangalila Symphony


 I wouldn't say the piano writing in the Turangalila was orchestral in the sense of added colour, reinforcement and bite though Enthusiast, it is as much a concerto in many places as it is a Symphonic work. I should imagine a lot of orchestral piano players might go into a cold sweat if they saw that on the programme for a coming season with their name on it.
It's fair to say that guest pianists will be hired for that gig.


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## HenryPenfold (Apr 29, 2018)

Enthusiast said:


> I'm in the same position and agree about Shostakovich 5. But then his 1st might be an even better example. I am also thinking of Prokofiev's 6th. And if it hasn't already been mentioned Messiaen's Turangalila Symphony


I mention DSCH 5, not because it's the best or better example, but because it's a clear example of the use of a piano in a symphony and everybody is familiar with his fifth symphony (unless they have been living in a cave, or are a country and western fan). Turangaila is effectively a piano concerto, so doesn't count, anyway.


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## Vasks (Dec 9, 2013)

Grofe's "Grand Canyon Suite"


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## Haydn70 (Jan 8, 2017)

Ernest Bloch - Concerto Grosso No. 1 (1925)...with that incredible fugue...


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## Axter (Jan 15, 2020)

Vaughan Williams symph 8 has some short subtle piano passages in the background. A great symph and one of my favs.


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## jim prideaux (May 30, 2013)

if it has not been mentioned yet.....one of Gade's symphonies (4th?)


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## golfer72 (Jan 27, 2018)

Bax : Winter Legends and Symphonic Variations


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## Allegro Con Brio (Jan 3, 2020)

Stravinsky’s Petrushka possibly has one of the most prominent and virtuosic piano parts in a non-solo or concerto work. Also OTTMH: Prokofiev 5 (love that scherzo), Alfven 4 (just listened to this recently; stunning), Mahler 8 (it’s not very prominent, but it’s there), Weinberg 21, and all Martinu symphonies.


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## chu42 (Aug 14, 2018)

Allegro Con Brio said:


> Stravinsky's Petrushka possibly has one of the most prominent and virtuosic piano parts in a non-solo or concerto work. Also OTTMH: Prokofiev 5 (love that scherzo), Alfven 4 (just listened to this recently; stunning), Mahler 8 (it's not very prominent, but it's there), Weinberg 21, and all Martinu symphonies.


And somehow Stravinsky was able arrange parts of the work for solo piano...


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## Judith (Nov 11, 2015)

Not just piano but other instruments being prominent. An example may be the cello in Tchaikovsky piano concerto no 2, violin in Scherazade!


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## consuono (Mar 27, 2020)




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