# Sex (erotic desire) and Classical Music



## Albert7 (Nov 16, 2014)

Based on the comment:



GhenghisKhan said:


> Meh.
> 
> I was thinking of something else when I saw the thread title.


I decided that it would be a good idea to address the non-gender sex and it as a theme in classical music.

To start off this springboard, if I recall correctly, Lizst's piano playing in live concerts "ravished" many young ladies back in the day.

And there are the trombone glissandi to represent Katerina's orgasm/affair with Sergey:






Hoping for a mature discussion for this subject. Thanks folks.


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## brotagonist (Jul 11, 2013)

It's a great substitute :lol: and you don't have to lie around once you're done or need to wash up


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## Badinerie (May 3, 2008)

Sex is an important part of life for most people on earth. As music is made for human consumption there a a great many allusions to sex and love throughout classical music and opera. Some subtle some not so much. As long as its done in the best possible taste Or to paraphrase Mrs Patrick Cambell " As long as they dont do it in the Aisle's and frighten the Usherettes"


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## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

I can't imagine living in a world without sex or beauty, which is why _Daphnis et Chloe_ and _L'Oiseau de feu_ are absolute _treasures_ to me. They're 'Aristotelian' in the highest aesthetic sense of being "life as it should and ought to be"-- but put to sound.


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## HaydnBearstheClock (Jul 6, 2013)

Not a huge fan of sexuality intruding into classical music - I find modern pop music to be overpolluted with it, and I think that it's partially the reason for the low quality of a lot of pop music these days.


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## QuietGuy (Mar 1, 2014)

Marschallin Blair said:


> I can't imagine living in a world without sex or beauty, which is why _Daphnis et Chloe_ and _L'Oiseau de feu_ are absolute _treasures_ to me. They're 'Aristotelian' in the highest aesthetic sense of being "life as it should and ought to be"-- but put to sound.


Yes, and I would add Debussy's _Afternoon of a Faun_ to that. Very sensual.


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## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

HaydnBearstheClock said:


> Not a huge fan of sexuality intruding into classical music - I find modern pop music to be overpolluted with it, and I think that it's partially the reason for the low quality of a lot of pop music these days.


Do you find the libidinous impulses of the "Bacchanale" from _Samson et Delilah_, or _Bolero_, or _Tziganne_, or _Daphne et Chloe_, or _Pelleas et Melissande_, or _Salome_, or _Tannhauser_, or _Parsifal_, or _Traviata_, or _Don Giovanni_, or _Nozze_, or _Cosi_, or _Norma_, or _Tristan_, or _Die Frau ohne Schatten_, or _Daphne_ (Strauss not Ravel), or _Rusalka_, or _Troyens_, or _Benvenutto Cellini_, or _Beatrice et Benedict_, or _Carmen_, or _Les pêcheurs de perles,_ or _Romeo et Juliette_, or _Francesca da Rimini_, or . . . --- 'intrusive' as well?

:angel:


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## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

QuietGuy said:


> Yes, and I would add Debussy's _Afternoon of a Faun_ to that.
> Very sensual.


I thank the gentleman for the fine corrigendum. _;D_


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## Morimur (Jan 23, 2014)

Marschallin Blair said:


> I can't imagine living in a world without sex or beauty, which is why _Daphnis et Chloe_ and _L'Oiseau de feu_ are absolute _treasures_ to me. They're 'Aristotelian' in the highest aesthetic sense of being "life as it should and ought to be"-- but put to sound.


I am amazed it took Marschallin Blair over two hours to post in a thread which included the words 'Sex', 'Erotic', and 'Desire'. I hear the Morality Police in Tehran are looking for new recruits.

:tiphat::tiphat::tiphat::tiphat:


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## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

Morimur said:


> I am amazed it took Marschallin Blair over two hours to post in thread which included the words 'Sex', Erotic, and 'Desire'.
> 
> :tiphat::tiphat::tiphat::tiphat:


I do my blonde best. 
_
;D_


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## The nose (Jan 14, 2014)

Richard Strauss gave us the ultimate classical striptease:


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

The nose said:


> Richard Strauss gave us the ultimate classical striptease:


Who could do it better?

Sometimes I feel that Strauss is to music as a striptease is to sex.


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## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

Woodduck said:


> Who could do it better?
> 
> Sometimes I feel that Strauss is to music as a striptease is to sex.


. . . or what a homily is to a live sex show as a bacchanalia is to Strauss' music._ ;D_


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## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

The nose said:


> Richard Strauss gave us the ultimate classical striptease:


Well, its a nice _start_. _;D_


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Marschallin Blair said:


> . . . or what a homily is to a live sex show as a bacchanalia is to Strauss' music._ ;D_


If I knew what that meant I think could really get down with it.


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## Sloe (May 9, 2014)

Woodduck said:


> Who could do it better?
> 
> Sometimes I feel that Strauss is to music as a striptease is to sex.


Does that mean that you think Richard Strauss music sounds like this?


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Sloe said:


> Does that mean that you think Richard Strauss music sounds like this?


Striptease as a warmup to... 

Hey, what joints have you been going to?


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## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

Woodduck said:


> If I knew what that meant I think could really get down with it.


The Strauss-level eroticism of _Salome_, for me, exceeds even that of a wild bacchanalia.


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## Balthazar (Aug 30, 2014)

Marschallin Blair said:


> The Strauss-level eroticism of _Salome_, for me, exceeds even that of a wild bacchanalia.


MB, you must be attending the wrong bacchanalias...


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## Morimur (Jan 23, 2014)

*Thomas Adès: Powder Her Face*


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## Albert7 (Nov 16, 2014)

Morimur said:


>


Already the term "powder her face" refers to a lot behind the scenes. Plus it's based on an English sex scandal (which I think is the same incident as Jason Statham's movie The Bank Job).


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## HaydnBearstheClock (Jul 6, 2013)

Marschallin Blair said:


> Do you find the libidinous impulses of the "Bacchanale" from _Samson et Delilah_, or _Bolero_, or _Tziganne_, or _Daphne et Chloe_, or _Pelleas et Melissande_, or _Salome_, or _Tannhauser_, or _Parsifal_, or _Traviata_, or _Don Giovanni_, or _Nozze_, or _Cosi_, or _Norma_, or _Tristan_, or _Die Frau ohne Schatten_, or _Daphne_ (Strauss not Ravel), or _Rusalka_, or _Troyens_, or _Benvenutto Cellini_, or _Beatrice et Benedict_, or _Carmen_, or _Les pêcheurs de perles,_ or _Romeo et Juliette_, or _Francesca da Rimini_, or . . . --- 'intrusive' as well?
> 
> :angel:


well, sensuality can be there, but for me, it can't be the main attraction. From the pieces you've listed, I do like what I've heard from Tannhäuser or Parsifal but am not familiar enough with the rest to form an opinion. Wagner is also not 'sensual' in the moments I enjoy his music, but more philosophical/thoughtful, I'd say. Haydn's Creation does have its very sensual moments, and I have to say I love the way Haydn does it, even though I think the more elaborate choral parts and arias with more complex orchestral interaction ('Rollend in schäumenden Wellen', for eg.) are a bit more interesting than the arias. I still like the arias, though, it's all great.

But if I would want sex in my music, I'd go for pop - that's why I'm on TC .


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## Guest (Jan 22, 2015)




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## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

Balthazar said:


> MB, you must be attending the wrong bacchanalias...


No, merely the right 'after parties.' _;D_


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## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

Morimur said:


>


Perhaps one needs a better class of friends.


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## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

HaydnBearstheClock said:


> well, sensuality can be there, but for me, it can't be the main attraction. From the pieces you've listed, I do like what I've heard from Tannhäuser or Parsifal but am not familiar enough with the rest to form an opinion. Wagner is also not 'sensual' in the moments I enjoy his music, but more philosophical/thoughtful, I'd say. Haydn's Creation does have its very sensual moments, and I have to say I love the way Haydn does it, even though I think the more elaborate choral parts and arias with more complex orchestral interaction ('Rollend in schäumenden Wellen', for eg.) are a bit more interesting than the arias. I still like the arias, though, it's all great.
> 
> But if I would want sex in my music, I'd go for pop - that's why I'm on TC .


Well, blessings upon you. . . and to each his own.

I can't imagine my life _without _the _'Moulin-Rouge-Daphnis-et-Chloe'_ element in it.


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## StlukesguildOhio (Dec 25, 2006)

... there a a great many allusions to sex and love throughout classical music and opera. Some subtle some not so much. As long as its done in the best possible taste

There's a quote by Picasso to the effect that " 'good taste' is the enemy of art."


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## Badinerie (May 3, 2008)

Viva Le Moulin Rouge!


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## StlukesguildOhio (Dec 25, 2006)

Not a huge fan of sexuality intruding into classical music - I find modern pop music to be overpolluted with it, and I think that it's partially the reason for the low quality of a lot of pop music these days.

Sex is among the greatest themes to be found in the whole of art. If you imagine that it all started with some teenage rock n rollers, you haven't been paying attention:

_I am still of opinion that only two topics can be of the least interest to a serious and studious mood - sex and death._
-William Butler Yeats


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## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

StlukesguildOhio said:


> ... there a a great many allusions to sex and love throughout classical music and opera. Some subtle some not so much. As long as its done in the best possible taste
> 
> There's a quote by Picasso to the effect that " 'good taste' is the enemy of art."


. . . and '_petite bourgeois_' is the enemy of _great_ taste.
_
;D_


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## StlukesguildOhio (Dec 25, 2006)




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## HaydnBearstheClock (Jul 6, 2013)

music can describe sexuality, but this is only one of the things it can do. In my opinion, music has great moral potential to improve human beings by sending a positive message. Delvling in narcisstic sexuality is something I associate more with a lot of modern pop. But still, to each his own.


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## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

StlukesguildOhio said:


>


_I just love the top poster!!!_

I need a print of that.


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## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

HaydnBearstheClock said:


> music can describe sexuality, but this is only one of the things it can do. In my opinion, music has great moral potential to improve human beings by sending a positive message. Delvling in narcisstic sexuality is something I associate more with a lot of modern pop. But still, to each his own.


. . . and what's _so wrong with narcissistic sexuality_? _;D_

I love sexy music; but I don't think that all music has to be sexy. Not at all.

What'd Mahler say?-- something to the effect that a symphony should be the whole world?

_Mutatis mutandis_ for music.

Music is human expression (or impression)- at least to me.


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## Alfacharger (Dec 6, 2013)

Who would think that Arthur Foote could write sexy music!


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## SeptimalTritone (Jul 7, 2014)

Bernhard Lang isn't mentioned very much on TC, but I'm getting into him recently and I think he's great! He might even become one of my favorites.

The present piece in this video is swirling, jazzy, sensual, and gritty.


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## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

"Belkis' Dance at Dawn" from Respighi's ballet _Belkis Queen of Sheeba _from 02:50+


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Alfacharger said:


> Who would think that Arthur Foote could write sexy music!


This could give one a Foote fetish.


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## Huilunsoittaja (Apr 6, 2010)

What, no one has posted this yet??


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## Guest (Jan 23, 2015)

Maderna's _Satyricon_ has a lengthy spoken word passage that leaves less to the imagination than standard 19th century fare.


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## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

Woodduck said:


> This could give one a Foote fetish.


You're so much pun.

Fetish is always a footnote to Herstory.


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## Albert7 (Nov 16, 2014)

Sexuality in western classical music is there evidently but what about Eastern (Oriental) pieces?


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## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

I always loved Jerry Goldsmith's Japanese-sounding main title music from the movie _The Chairman._

Though the music in the film has nothing to do with how _I _envision what the music is depicting in my head, the music always reminds me of the ornate insides of a lush pagoda of the Japanese Emperor from the Tokugawa Period, dignitaries from the Shogunate in attendance, with a parade of drop-dead gorgeous Geishas dancing before them in a ritualistic ceremony-- just before an orgy takes place.

The build-up and climax is fantastic.

The music I love is from 01:15-03:50 in the You Tube video.


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

albertfallickwang said:


> I decided that it would be a good idea to address the non-gender sex and it as a theme in classical music.
> 
> To start off this springboard, if I recall correctly, Lizst's piano playing in live concerts "ravished" many young ladies back in the day.


Liszt's effects, waves of arpeggios, thundering climaxes, the dramatic effects, the dazzling virtuosity etc. were altogether new to his audiences. It was an age when women covered up top to bottom, and a somewhat puritanical attitude toward sex prevailed. [[ The more repressed the thoughts, the more unrealized the actual sensations, the more anything vaguely sensual as perceived will then either embarrass, or overwhelm, or both. ]]

Liszt most often played in smaller rooms, i.e. salons packed with people, _they were candlelit -- which makes the room warm and sucks oxygen at the same time,_ and women were constrained in whale-bone corsets worn under layer upon layer of clothing. Women routinely fainted at anything which got them the least bit upset or excited -- because they could barely breath adequately (normally) at the best of times -- and "Fainting couches" were a standard piece of furniture in many an upper middle-class home!

Liszt was a highly charismatic showman who knew his business, too. He would wear close-fitting kid gloves while entering the room, sit down at the piano, take them off, and set them down on the downstage end of the music rack of the piano; he would then occasionally between numbers _wipe the perspiration from his brow on the gloves,_ then set the gloves back in place. After the recital, he took his bows, _and purposefully left those gloves on the piano._ That created a fan-frenzy over those gloves similar to teens at rock concerts who want a piece of the sweaty T-shirt the performer wore in the performance 

All those factors must be taken into account when considering all those women fainting during Liszt's piano recitals!



albertfallickwang said:


> And there are the trombone glissandi to represent Katerina's orgasm/affair with Sergey.


I despair that most listeners will never realize how much text and libretto greatly affect the perceptions of what they hear!

If it were just trombone glissandi in a piece with no specific title instead of trombone glissandi underlying a specific scene from an opera the plot of which is an extramarital affair, a rape, and the woman conspiring with her lover to (successfully) murder her husband, they would be "just trombone glissandi."

"erotic desire" in music, my foot, or elbow, or nose.


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## Polyphemus (Nov 2, 2011)




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## DeepR (Apr 13, 2012)

Huilunsoittaja said:


> What, no one has posted this yet??


The original plans for the piece were less ambiguous, and of course there are erotic elements to it, but in the end the Poem of Ecstasy is meant to be about spiritual ecstasy and not the physical act of sex.


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

DeepR said:


> The original plans for the piece were less ambiguous, and of course there are erotic elements to it, but in the end the Poem of Ecstasy is meant to be about spiritual ecstasy and not the physical act of sex.


"We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars." ~ Oscar Wilde


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## Triplets (Sep 4, 2014)

I think it is interesting to view Composers attitudes towards the issues of Life, including Sexuality, as they age. Albert started this thread with the Shostakovich Lady MacBeth example. DSCH was a young man when he wrote it. After his Political troubles began, his Music seemed to reflect the traumas of the 20th Century. In his last decade, His work reflects an obsession with Death and Mortality.
Our Sexuality is an important part of our Lives. As we age, most of us cherish the companionship and stability of long term relationships, begin to contemplate mortality as those around us become ill, and in general we are less concerned with Sexuality as a driving force of our lives. The Art we enjoy reflects that trajectory.


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## The nose (Jan 14, 2014)




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## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

DeepR said:


> The original plans for the piece were less ambiguous, and of course there are erotic elements to it, but in the end the Poem of Ecstasy is meant to be about spiritual ecstasy and not the physical act of sex.


Don't get me wrong, I _love _Scriabin-- but how can you have spiritual ecstasy without physical intimacy?

Britney Spears trumps St. John of the Cross any day.


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## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

PetrB said:


> "We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars." ~ Oscar Wilde


"Tell me what a man finds sexually attractive and I will tell you his entire philosophy of life. Show me the woman he sleeps with and I will tell you his valuation of himself."

- Miss Ayn Rand


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## Dim7 (Apr 24, 2009)

Sex, sex, sex, that's all they think about....


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

Marschallin Blair said:


> "Tell me what a man finds sexually attractive and I will tell you his entire philosophy of life. Show me the woman he sleeps with and I will tell you his valuation of himself."
> 
> - Miss Ayn Rand


Ahhh. Ms. Rand and Mr. H. Hesse -- two great authors who influence, in a good way, many a young mind, but whom if read much after age 20 seem to quickly become less and less great and instead show as more frail and ridiculous.

Ironic, though, the sort of dynamic in her own intimate relationship(s) says so much more directly about Ms. Rand than anything she wrote


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## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

Dim7 said:


> Sex, sex, sex, that's all they think about....


All is vanity. _;D_


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## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

PetrB said:


> Ahhh. Ms. Rand and Mr. H. Hesse -- two great authors who influence, in a good way, many a young mind but whom, if read much after age 20, seem quickly less and less great and more and more frail and ridiculous.
> 
> Ironic, though, the sort of dynamic in her own intimate relationship(s) says so much more directly about Ms. Rand than anything she wrote


Are you confusing her with Keynes or with Marx (Karl not Groucho)-- not that she's sophomoric or obscurantist in the least.


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## aleazk (Sep 30, 2011)

Ravel's _Chansons madécasses_ are based on a set of poems by Évariste de Parny which I guess one could say are 'erotic':

Nahandove, oh beautiful Nahandove! 
The night bird has begun to sing,
the full moon shines overhead, 
and the first dew is moistening my hair.
Now is the time: who can be delaying you? 
Oh beautiful Nahandove!

The bed of leaves is ready; 
I have strewn flowers and aromatic herbs;
it is worthy of your charms, 
oh beautiful Nahandove!

She is coming. I recognise the rapid breathing 
of someone walking quickly; 
I hear the rustle of her skirt. 
It is she, it is the beautiful Nahandove!

Catch your breath, my young sweetheart; 
rest on my lap. 
How enchanting your gaze is, 
how lively and delightful the motion of your breast 
as my hand presses it! 
You smile, oh beautiful Nahandove!

Your kisses reach into my soul; 
your caresses burn all my senses. 
Stop or I will die! 
Can one die of ecstasy? 
Oh beautiful Nahandove!

Pleasure passes like lightning; 
your sweet breathing becomes calmer,
your moist eyes close again, 
your head droops, 
and your raptures fade into weariness. 
Never were you so beautiful, 
oh beautiful Nahandove!

Now you are leaving, and I will languish in sadness and desires.
I will languish until sunset. 
You will return this evening, 
oh beautiful Nahandove!


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## Taggart (Feb 14, 2013)

Marschallin Blair said:


> Are you confusing her with Keynes or with Marx (Karl not Groucho)-- not that she's sophomoric or obscurantist in the least.


Keynes was the one who kept his (ballerina) wife in the fridge to cool down.


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

aleazk said:


> Ravel's _Chansons madécasses_ are based on a set of poems by Évariste de Parny which I guess one could say are 'erotic':


In a like vein ^^^

The old testament _Song of Songs_ -- here in a lovely setting by Lukas Foss, an early work of his in neoclassical style.
Jennie Tourel, mezzosoprano ~ New York Philharmonic; Leonard Bernstein
(sung in English)


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## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

Taggart said:


> Keynes was the one who kept his (ballerina) wife in the fridge to cool down.


I don't know what it is, but I can't get into that link on Lydia.

So what's the dish with the Keynesian cooler?


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## SimonNZ (Jul 12, 2012)

Marschallin Blair said:


> "Tell me what a man finds sexually attractive and I will tell you his entire philosophy of life. Show me the woman he sleeps with and I will tell you his valuation of himself."
> 
> - Miss Ayn Rand


Of course its easy for Ayn to make this cute quote when no-one's going to test her on it, or she wouldn't dare let herself be tested. Also "show me the woman"?. Not speak to the woman? Is the supposed reflected glory of magazine beauty the only factor to the man in dear Ayn's view?



PetrB said:


> Ahhh. Ms. Rand and Mr. H. Hesse -- two *great authors* who influence, *in a good way*, many a young mind, but whom if read much after age 20 seem to quickly become less and less great and instead show as more frail and ridiculous.


Petr, you surprise me...

A little more on topic: Orff's Catulli Carmina has some racy lyrics - an lp I had said on the back that they weren't going to print a translation as it might corrupt the young etc.


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## GreenMamba (Oct 14, 2012)

PetrB said:


> Ahhh. Ms. Rand and Mr. H. Hesse -- two great authors who influence, in a good way, many a young mind, but whom if read much after age 20 seem to quickly become less and less great and instead show as more frail and ridiculous.


_There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs._ -John Rogers


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

GreenMamba said:


> _There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs._ -John Rogers


zOMG that is both harsh and funny


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## Figleaf (Jun 10, 2014)

Marschallin Blair said:


> but how can you have spiritual ecstasy without physical intimacy?


It's certainly possible, but will have to wait for somebody more articulate than me to explain it!


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## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

> Quote Originally Posted by Marschallin Blair View Post
> 
> "Tell me what a man finds sexually attractive and I will tell you his entire philosophy of life. Show me the woman he sleeps with and I will tell you his valuation of himself."
> 
> - Miss Ayn Rand





SimonNZ said:


> Of course its easy for Ayn to make this cute quote when no-one's going to test her on it, or she wouldn't dare let herself be tested. Also "show me the woman"?. Not speak to the woman? Is the supposed reflected glory of magazine beauty the only factor to the man in dear Ayn's view?


None of the above actually.

She's referring to a man whose romantic inclinations are his responses to his own highest values in the person of another-- "an integrated response of mind and body, of love and sexual desire"-- as she put it (_The Voice of Reason_, p. 52).

Intelligence, taste, judgement, ambition, principle, sensitivity, looks-- yeah, the whole package. . . character traits 'some' might even find. . . . . . 'hateful.'


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## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

Figleaf said:


> It's certainly possible, but will have to wait for somebody more articulate than me to explain it!


I understand the meeting-of-minds thing. . . . . . but 'ecstasy'?-- Really?


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## Figleaf (Jun 10, 2014)

Marschallin Blair said:


> I understand the meeting-of-minds thing. . . . . . but 'ecstasy'?-- Really?


Yes. I wish I could explain it properly.


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## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

GreenMamba said:


> _There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs._ -John Roger


. . . and of course, there's those 'terminal adolescents' who never take cognizance of the capitalist world around them, even as it passes them by. . . and even in China.

Everyone's seen it.

The faintly smiling, bland, yet somehow threatening visage appears in brilliant red hues on placards and posters, and is painted huge on the sides of buildings. Some call him a genius. Others blame him for the deaths of millions. There are those who say his military reputation is inflated, yet he conquered the mainland in short order.

Yes, it's Colonel Sanders.


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## Albert7 (Nov 16, 2014)

Marschallin Blair said:


> . . . and of course, there's those 'terminal adolescents' who never take cognizance of the capitalist world around them, even as it passes them by. . . and even in China.
> 
> Everyone's seen it.
> 
> ...




Alas, is KFC that much of a corrupting influence?


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## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

albertfallickwang said:


> Alas, is KFC that much of a corrupting influence?


No, merely Mao's_ Little Red Book_.


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