# Your (favorite, best, greatest, most important, whatever) Beethoven piano sonata



## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Ludwig cranked these out with enthusiasm – over three times as many as his symphonies, twice as many as his string quartets, and so forth.

So…at any given time, which one are you most likely to reach for? Saying why would be nice too. And extra credit for your favorite performance!

My preference at this moment would be the Op. 109 AKA No. 30. I’ve loved this sonata since way back when I had it played by Dame Myra Hess on a mono LP with horrendous inner-groove distortion.

You?


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

The "Hammerklavier" has been my favorite for decades. Favorite recording comes from Pollini on DG. For extra credit, I'd like a houseboat in Seattle (and not one with holes in the floor). :tiphat:


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## flamencosketches (Jan 4, 2019)

Some of my favorites are Waldstein (21), Pathétique (8), and Pastorale (15). But I love a lot of them. They are an amazing body of works. 

A recent favorite is No.3 in C major. I used to think the op.2 sonatas were nothing but late Classical fluff until I heard Brendel play them.


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## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

Les Adieux. Of the late sonatas, Op. 110.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

Appassionata, Pathetique, No.1

I don't know all 32 intimately.


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

Pathetique, Tempest, and, yes, Moonlight.


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## flamencosketches (Jan 4, 2019)

Glad to see love for the Pathétique. I'd have thought it was too passé. I just heard it for the first time (don't ask me how I managed to avoid it for 23 years) maybe 6 months ago and was so struck by it. I remain enamored with it. The best recordings of it I've heard, I would have to say Alfred Brendel and Claudio Arrau.


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## CnC Bartok (Jun 5, 2017)

Waldstein (even if nowadays I seem to hear "Ding dong the witch is dead" at the start of the final movement...)

........and Op.111.


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## Schoenberg (Oct 15, 2018)

Hammerklavier is the obvious answer, considering its likely the greatest, the grandest of the 32 sonatas. After that it is closely followed by the other late sonatas. After the last five I'd be inclined to choose the Waldstein or Les Adieux.


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## D Smith (Sep 13, 2014)

My favourite has to be the Pathetique. I was an avid listener to Karl Haas's program in the 70's. He introduced me to many classical works on his program Adventures in Good Music. He opened every show with the second movement of the Pathetique, which he played himself. It made an impression!


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## isorhythm (Jan 2, 2015)

Op. 101 for me, since I first heard it as a teenager.


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## Roger Knox (Jul 19, 2017)

I'd say the Waldstein and Les Adieux sonatas.


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## Andolink (Oct 29, 2012)

Sonata No. 21 in C major, Op. 53 "Waldstein"


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## bharbeke (Mar 4, 2013)

Waldstein, Appassionata, Pathetique, Moonlight, 16, Les adieux, and 32 are all hovering around the top spot for me.


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## Xisten267 (Sep 2, 2018)

My favorite piano sonata of all is Beethoven's No. 31, Op. 110. My impression of the last three sonatas is that they combine great intellectual depth with profound emotions, and listening to the three as a cycle seems to me like a sublime journey.

I have them with Pollini, Ashkenazy, Brendel, Lewis and Goode. I favour the latter, but perhaps it's a bias because it was in this recording that I listened to all Beethoven sonatas for the first time.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

I don't think Beethoven ever surpassed his Op.57. 
Op.57 is tight, cohesive, concise in structure. Powerful and direct in expression.
Op.106, 109, 110, 111 just don't seem to have this power of expression.

18:00 ~ 18:30





There are these pieces in late Beethoven that start with wonderful movements, but weaken and become unfocused in expression as they progress toward the later movements. The slow movements are often too long with tinkly ostinatos, the fugues sound disorganized. Perhaps too improvisatory in nature (going over the limits he can control with form). And the boogie-woogie is a bad idea that Beethoven should not have contemplated in the first place.

It reminds me of the scene at 1:36 in this video:




"WTF? Why is this turning into jazz all of sudden??"

It is also one of 'unpopular opinions' of David C F Wright (who regards Beethoven the greatest of all composers), that late period Beethoven generally lacks in inspiration compared to his middle period.
(I'm not saying everything he says is right.)


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## Pat Fairlea (Dec 9, 2015)

Tough call, like trying to choose a favourite child. When you have 32 of them.

The sonata that I most often reach for, so I guess it's my favourite, is Op.110. But the one that most often plays itself in my head is the Pathetique, which I think is seriously under-rated.


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## insomniclassicac (Jan 15, 2018)

I am the most moved by the Op. 111, his most "spiritual", transcendent sonata.

Op. 106, "Hammerklavier", is his greatest musical structure (among the piano sonatas).

For pure listenability, I probably queue up the Op. 53, "Waldstein", the most frequently.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Here's a top-ten list per voting on the old Amazon forum. Op. 81a is listed with Beethoven's preferred name rather than the publisher's "Les Adieux." No Appassionata!

1 - Opus 109: No. 30 in E major (1820)
2 - Opus 111: No. 32 in C minor (1822)
3 - Opus 81a: No. 26 in E-flat major 'Das Lebewohl' (1810)
4 - Opus 28: No. 15 in D major 'Pastoral' (1801)
5 - Opus 110: No. 31 in A-flat major (1821)
6 - Opus 13: No. 8 in C minor 'Pathétique' (1798)
7 - Opus 53: No. 21 in C major 'Waldstein' (1803)
8 - Opus 101: No. 28 in A major (1816)
9 - Opus 106: No. 29 in B-flat major 'Hammerklavier' (1819)
10 - Opus 27 #2: No. 14 in C-sharp minor 'Moonlight' (1801)


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## Xisten267 (Sep 2, 2018)

hammeredklavier said:


> There are these pieces in late Beethoven that start with wonderful movements, but weaken and become unfocused in expression as they progress toward the later movements. The slow movements are often too long with tinkly ostinatos, the fugues sound disorganized. Perhaps too improvisatory in nature (going over the limits he can control with form). And the boogie-woogie is a bad idea that Beethoven should not have contemplated in the first place.


Well, it's your opinion, based on your perception, and I can't say I agree with anything you stated in this paragraph.


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## vtpoet (Jan 17, 2019)

Op. 106 My current favorite performance is by Andras Schiff. But, to me, no one has ever performed the slow movement as beautifully or with such mysticism as Glenn Gould.


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## MarkW (Feb 16, 2015)

Early: opus 2 no. 3 (Ashkenazy)
Middle: "Les Adieux" (several)
Late: Opus 109 (early Brendel)
Opus 111 (Rangell)


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## Razumovskymas (Sep 20, 2016)

Having a favorite Beethoven sonata means you haven't listened enough to all the others!


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## HistoryJoe (Mar 12, 2019)

Razumovskymas said:


> Having a favorite Beethoven sonata means you haven't listened enough to all the others!


Hah! Fair enough. My iTunes library claims my most frequent listen is Op. 81 by Kovacevich and who am I to argue?


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## flamencosketches (Jan 4, 2019)

I listened to Schnabel's Les Adieux a few hours ago and it made me question my neglect for that sonata. Really good. 

I don't think I've heard Schnabel's Hammerklavier. I need to change that ASAP.


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## Littlephrase (Nov 28, 2018)

Op. 111, no doubt; it is my obvious favorite. An utterly transcendent work of art. Shame on Hammeredklavier for suggesting the “Boogie-Woogie” should’ve been scrapped. That passage, along with entire Arietta, is nothing but sublime and ecstatic. 

The other four late sonatas are not far behind. Of course, the middle period Waldstein, Appasionata and Les Adieux sonatas are amazing masterpieces. I also have soft spots for 24, 22, 16, 15 , 11 and 7.


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## AeolianStrains (Apr 4, 2018)




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## Schoenberg (Oct 15, 2018)

flamencosketches said:


> I don't think I've heard Schnabel's Hammerklavier. I need to change that ASAP.


I must warn you-if you haven't heard Schnabel's Hammerklavier, it is the only sonata where I think that Schnabel's technical difficulties has a large negative impact on the performance. It is still, however a great performance despite that flaw.


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## flamencosketches (Jan 4, 2019)

Schoenberg said:


> I must warn you-if you haven't heard Schnabel's Hammerklavier, it is the only sonata where I think that Schnabel's technical difficulties has a large negative impact on the performance. It is still, however a great performance despite that flaw.


I listened to it last night and I might agree with that assessment. Definitely some sloppiness at times. But I love Schnabel and I forgive him.

What's your favorite Hammerklavier, Schoenberg?


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## Schoenberg (Oct 15, 2018)

flamencosketches said:


> I listened to it last night and I might agree with that assessment. Definitely some sloppiness at times. But I love Schnabel and I forgive him.
> 
> What's your favorite Hammerklavier, Schoenberg?


Despite the flaws of the Schnabel, it's still my favourite as well, though it's the only one I have gotten a chance to listen to recently, due to the massive length of the sonata. He's my favourite for the rest though, and will likely still remain as my favourite as I get the chance to listen to others.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

hammeredklavier said:


> I don't think Beethoven ever surpassed his Op.57.
> Op.57 is tight, cohesive, concise in structure. Powerful and direct in expression.
> Op.106, 109, 110, 111 just don't seem to have this power of expression.
> 
> ...


I once read that Lenin felt the same way about Beethoven as you.


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## flamencosketches (Jan 4, 2019)

Schoenberg said:


> Despite the flaws of the Schnabel, it's still my favourite as well, though it's the only one I have gotten a chance to listen to recently, due to the massive length of the sonata. He's my favourite for the rest though, and will likely still remain as my favourite as I get the chance to listen to others.


A man after my own heart  Schnabel's Beethoven is consistency mind blowing. He always reveals another side to these sonatas that I wouldn't have realized was there. It's too much sometimes, so I can't always listen to his interpretations.


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## skim1124 (Mar 6, 2019)

KenOC said:


> My preference at this moment would be the Op. 109 AKA No. 30. I've loved this sonata since way back when I had it played by Dame Myra Hess on a mono LP with horrendous inner-groove distortion.
> 
> You?


I don't know if it's my all-time favorite, but I, too, love this, especially as I think it's a bit underrated or underappreciated. The opening of the first movement--beautiful!


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

"The Tempest."................

@Flamenco, I've got a 10-CD Schnabel set. I can't get past the piano he's using; it sounds like a short-stringed spinnet. Do you notice this? For me, it takes away any potential "grandeur" it might contain. It sounds like somebody's piano in a living room.


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## CnC Bartok (Jun 5, 2017)

millionrainbows said:


> "The Tempest."................
> 
> @Flamenco, I've got a 10-CD Schnabel set. I can't get past the piano he's using; it sounds like a short-stringed spinnet. Do you notice this? For me, it takes away any potential "grandeur" it might contain. It sounds like somebody's piano in a living room.


It's not always easy to listen beyond the sound limitations of a set of pre-war recordings. I regret to say I struggle with the sound as well (oddly enough so did Schnabel himself! But he was happy with the musical product...) I have the Schnabel in their EMI References (French EMI) incarnation, and am unsure whether any other releases are any better? Is it really the piano? That said, Schnabel has as much intimacy as grandeur, and the former quality isn't lost, not for me anyway.

Frustrating that Emil Gilels died before completing his survey for DGG; even more frustrating is that Solomon was scheduled to record all 32 for EMI/HMV in the mid-50s, and only got through ten of them before his debilitating stroke. Those recordings are worth their weight in gold, though. His Hammerklavier is one of the best I have heard for sure.


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## flamencosketches (Jan 4, 2019)

millionrainbows said:


> "The Tempest."................
> 
> @Flamenco, I've got a 10-CD Schnabel set. I can't get past the piano he's using; it sounds like a short-stringed spinnet. Do you notice this? For me, it takes away any potential "grandeur" it might contain. It sounds like somebody's piano in a living room.


No, I like the sound of his piano. Beyond the flaws typical of really old recordings, the sound on these is not altogether bad to me. That being said I'm not sure if "grandeur" is the term I would use to describe these recordings, "intensity" and "pathos" maybe.

And I don't even have the CDs. I have an mp3 rip I got for $2 on Amazon. Clearly, I am not an audiophile.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

flamencosketches said:


> A man after my own heart  Schnabel's Beethoven is consistency mind blowing. He always reveals another side to these sonatas that I wouldn't have realized was there. It's too much sometimes, so I can't always listen to his interpretations.


You know about this? (I've not read it)


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

CnC Bartok said:


> It's not always easy to listen beyond the sound limitations of a set of pre-war recordings. I regret to say I struggle with the sound as well (oddly enough so did Schnabel himself! But he was happy with the musical product...) I have the Schnabel in their EMI References (French EMI) incarnation, and am unsure whether any other releases are any better? Is it really the piano? That said, Schnabel has as much intimacy as grandeur, and the former quality isn't lost, not for me anyway.


I really think it's daft to hunt out different transfers of Schnabel recordings, I mean there's only so much that the masters can offer, you're never going to have high fidelity audio. Just enjoy what you have.


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## flamencosketches (Jan 4, 2019)

Mandryka said:


> You know about this? (I've not read it)
> 
> View attachment 120961


Nope I didn't know about it. I'll try and track that down.


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## BrahmsWasAGreatMelodist (Jan 13, 2019)

Can't choose a favorite. However, here's a ranking of the 32 that I feel OK with for the time being, broken down into 3 tiers, with tier 1 containing my favorites and tier 3 containing my least favorites (no order within tiers). Overall, Beethoven's piano sonatas might be my favorite cycle of works by any composer.

Tier 1: 8 ("Pathetique"), 10, 11, 12, 15 ("Pastoral"), 16, 17 ("Tempest"), 18 ("The Hunt"), 21 ("Waldstein"), 23 ("Appassionata"), 24 ("A Therese"), 26 ("Les Adieux"), 28, 29 ("Hammerklavier"), 30, 31, 32

Tier 2: 3, 4, 5 ("Little Pathetique"), 6, 7, 9, 13 ("Quasi una Fantasia"), 19, 20, 25 ("Cuckoo"), 27

Tier 3: 1, 2, 14 ("Moonlight"), 22 (I still think this one's underrated, though)

I know that the first tier is a bit large; if I could divide it in a meaningful way, I would... but I really can't bring myself to put these pieces at anything other than the top. They're just perfect. That being said, I might consider the last 3 sonatas to be his greatest and most essential (though that doesn't make the others any less beautiful in their own right).


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## CnC Bartok (Jun 5, 2017)

Mandryka said:


> I really think it's daft to hunt out different transfers of Schnabel recordings, I mean there's only so much that the masters can offer, you're never going to have high fidelity audio. Just enjoy what you have.


I think you're probably telling me what in my heart of hearts I know already, and am not going to try and find "better transfers". But listening to different remasterings of other works (especially some done by Dutton) did make me wonder whether I had gone for the most indifferent available...


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## Clouds Weep Snowflakes (Feb 24, 2019)

And what would it be without this one?


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## infracave (May 14, 2019)

BrahmsWasAGreatMelodist said:


> Can't choose a favorite. However, here's a ranking of the 32 that I feel OK with for the time being, broken down into 3 tiers, with tier 1 containing my favorites and tier 3 containing my least favorites (no order within tiers). Overall, Beethoven's piano sonatas might be my favorite cycle of works by any composer.
> 
> Tier 1: 8 ("Pathetique"), 10, 11, 12, 15 ("Pastoral"), 16, 17 ("Tempest"), 18 ("The Hunt"), 21 ("Waldstein"), 23 ("Appassionata"), 24 ("A Therese"), 26 ("Les Adieux"), 28, 29 ("Hammerklavier"), 30, 31, 32
> 
> ...


PS 19 & 20 = tier 2
PS 14 = tier 3

What!?
I mean, I understand that most musicians are fed up with the moonlight as it's been overplayed but it's still a great sonata. At least much better than 19 & 20.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Pop quiz: Which sonata is sometimes known as "Der Vampyr"?


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## WildThing (Feb 21, 2017)

CnC Bartok said:


> It's not always easy to listen beyond the sound limitations of a set of pre-war recordings. I regret to say I struggle with the sound as well (oddly enough so did Schnabel himself! But he was happy with the musical product...) I have the Schnabel in their EMI References (French EMI) incarnation, and am unsure whether any other releases are any better? .


I find Pristine Classical's remasterings to be a noticeable improvement over EMI. Of course they are also rather expensive.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

KenOC said:


> Pop quiz: Which sonata is sometimes known as "Der Vampyr"?


No answer? I'm not making this up!


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

I assume it is something like 'Elvira Madigan' for Mozart's PC21, or 'Death in Venice' for Mahlers adagietto from his 5th symphony.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Answer to pop quiz: Piano Sonata #13 in E-flat, Op. 27 No. 1. Amazon's track listings for the Jando sonata cycle used to carry "Der Vampyr" as the name for this sonata, but they no longer do. Classical Archives identifies two cycles (Jando and Korstick) as including "Der Vampyr"; you can play snippets from *their page* to verify the identity.

No, I have no idea where the nickname came from!


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## Beebert (Jan 3, 2019)

Op 109. It is music that can save lives.


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## Beebert (Jan 3, 2019)

hammeredklavier said:


> I don't think Beethoven ever surpassed his Op.57.
> Op.57 is tight, cohesive, concise in structure. Powerful and direct in expression.
> Op.106, 109, 110, 111 just don't seem to have this power of expression.
> 
> ...


Well, if David C F Wright says Beethoven's late music lacks inspiration compared to middle period Beethoven, then we almost certainly know it is not true.


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## flamencosketches (Jan 4, 2019)

Beethoven's 30th piano sonata is totally righteous... especially when Schnabel plays it.






Probably my favorite of the late sonatas, but could be I just need to spend more time with the rest of them... which are considered late anyway, 28 through 32? Or do we start with 27?


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## BrahmsWasAGreatMelodist (Jan 13, 2019)

flamencosketches said:


> Probably my favorite of the late sonatas, but could be I just need to spend more time with the rest of them... which are considered late anyway, 28 through 32? Or do we start with 27?


Generally 28-32 are considered late.


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## Malx (Jun 18, 2017)

Too difficult to call, its like being asked to pick a favourite child - having said that the sonata I select first when sampling new complete sets is the Waldstein so in some ways just maybe.........


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

Beebert said:


> Well, if David C F Wright says Beethoven's late music lacks inspiration compared to middle period Beethoven, then we almost certainly know it is not true.


I think Wright has a good point regarding this, although certain late Beethoven pieces such as Op.131 do set the bar high, I don't think Op.111 meets that high standard.






@16:00: here is the boogie-woogie. Some people would go on about how this is a precursor to jazz, but I don't see how 'important' that is cause jazz is not even part of the classical music tradition. By following this logic, Pachelbel's canon in D should be considered one of the greatest piece ever written cause its chord progressions birthed modern pop.
@18:00: all Beethoven does is writing left hand bass tremolo C-G, with some right hand chords that can't even be considered proper melody.
@18:30: he does some tinkly stuff in the right hand.
@19:15: again, he goes back to doing lefthand tremolo, with right hand chords that aren't even proper melody.
@19:50: again, Beethoven goes back to doing some tinkly stuff in the right hand.
@21:20: does trill on D in the right hand for 1 minute.

The best part of this piece is the first movement, as great as it may be, I wouldn't say it's the greatest because the slow introduction is derivative of his earlier, formally-superior piano sonatas such as Pathetique, Appassionata and even Mozart K475. 



 The allegro is kind of reminiscent of Mozart K426. 



Aside from certain passages that anticipate Chopin Op.10 No.12, Op.25 No.12, 



 I don't see how this can be at the same tier as his more inspired sonatas such as Moonlight, Tempest, Apassionata.


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## Beebert (Jan 3, 2019)

hammeredklavier said:


> I think Wright has a good point regarding this, although certain late Beethoven pieces such as Op.131 do set the bar high, I don't think Op.111 meets that high standard.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Your argument for why Op 111 is inferior to his earlier sonatas is completely without substance. There is no puposeful content in your "analysis". It says nothing. If you want to read someone who has good, knowledgeable and interesring things to say about Beethoven and music in general, then stop reading someone as mediocre and uninteresting as Wright and start reading Wilfrid Mellers. Read his "Beethoven and The Voice of God". It is a completely different level. That guy knows what music is.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

flamencosketches said:


> Beethoven's 30th piano sonata is totally righteous... especially when Schnabel plays it.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I quoted this before here, from Barry Cooper's essay for Steven Osborne's recording



> BEETHOVEN'S THREE PIANO SONATAS Opp 90, 101 and 106 form a bridge between those of the previous decade and the final set of three, Opp 109-111, of the 1820s. They were the only ones that Beethoven wrote during the 1810s, and although they were not initially conceived as a trilogy, this is effectively how they turned out: as in most of his other sets of three works, he placed one of the three in the minor, and used both sharp and flat keys to increase variety. Moreover, if they are listened to in chronological order, the end of Op 90 prepares for the E major chord that opens Op 101, while the latter concludes with massive chords that foreshadow those at the start of Op 106. Rather than forming a balanced group, the three sonatas represent an enormous crescendo in terms of length and difficulty: they consist respectively of two, three and four movements, and their technical demands increase proportionately, from relatively easy (by Beethoven's standards), to 'difficult' (as Beethoven himself acknowledged), to a work that is one of the most taxing in the entire piano repertoire. That said, each sonata works perfectly when heard individually, and it could be argued that each benefits from having its own space.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

hammeredklavier said:


> ...Aside from certain passages that anticipate Chopin Op.10 No.12, Op.25 No.12,
> 
> 
> 
> I don't see how this can be at the same tier as his more inspired sonatas such as Moonlight, Tempest, Apassionata.


Your discussion is obviously informed by listening to the Op. 111. I'm sure that some day you will come to hear it as well.


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## flamencosketches (Jan 4, 2019)

I’ve been thinking about this a lot. I think op. 109 is the greatest. Relatively short, but it’s a masterpiece start to finish. The Hammerklavier is damn good too!! Thanks to Schnabel I now “get” and enjoy both of these works that were once pretty obscure to me.


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## Pat Fairlea (Dec 9, 2015)

Beebert said:


> Your argument for why Op 111 is inferior to his earlier sonatas is completely without substance. There is no puposeful content in your "analysis". It says nothing. If you want to read someone who has good, knowledgeable and interesring things to say about Beethoven and music in general, then stop reading someone as mediocre and uninteresting as Wright and start reading Wilfrid Mellers. Read his "Beethoven and The Voice of God". It is a completely different level. That guy knows what music is.


Footnote: I knew Wilf Mellers. He was lovely.


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