# Chest Voice, This Is Opera and Over-Correction



## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

I shared a piece in another thread (posted below) that got me thinking: most of y'all know I became a convert to the This Is Opera school of promoting traditional technique, but some of them (likely including myself) overdo it. For example, a lot of them over-correct into this mindset of "you should use as much chest voice as you can whenever possible!" 

...that's not how it works. Yes, everyone needs to develop both their head voice and their chest voice, but 
1) That doesn't mean you have to use it all the time. Singers like Eileen Farrell, Gertrude Grob-Prandl and Kerstin Thorborg used their chest voices less frequently and less abruptly than your typical Italian singer of the interwar period, but they all had MONSTER voices which could project clear to the back of any opera hall in the world. 
2) Stylistically, sometimes it just doesn't work. You might be able to get away with raw, unadulterated chest voice singing Gioconda or Azucena, but....imagine someone singing Zerlina that way? How about Musetta? That makes about as much as singing a negro spiritual** like a soloist from the Mormon Tabernacle Choir.
3) There isn't some exact note you're supposed to switch from chest voice to head voice on. Many singers opt for both at different times depending on the style, dynamics, phrasing, etc. It's common in both popular music and classical music for a singer to sing a passage in head voice the first time, but singing it louder and with more chest voice and intensity the second or third time. 
4) Constriction doesn't just come from underdeveloped voices. It can come from voices which are unbalanced because one set of muscles is taking over the function of another. This can happen in either direction. One unfortunate and overlooked example is...Maria Callas. Throughout her entire career, she had a chest voice on par with the best mezzo and contralto singers in the world, but after less than a decade of glorious high notes, her head voice began to give out, sounding screechy after the mid 50s and wobbly a decade after that. 
5) Without enough head voice, the voice can't blossom and sound feminine. Singers like Marisa Galvany for example had fiery, exciting voices in Norma or Abigaille, but tended to be one trick ponies. Even with regards to more technically proficient singers, many from the 1920s came off sounding kinda "butch" because there wasn't enough "deep ooo" in the voice (compare singers like Alma Gluck to singers a bit later like Claudia Muzio or Eula Beal with much more "bloom" in the voice). This may have worked for mezzos playing old crones like Ulrica or Azucena, but it sounds weird and out of place in lighter soprano rep. 

Here is the clip in question. I thought it was a good example of using the right amount of chest voice at the right time, rather than either omitting it like most modern singers, or banging into it in an abrupt, Eva Marton-esque kind of style. 






**they are actually called that, and given there are also spirituals for white people which are stylistically completely different, referring to them by a more old-fashioned term is appropriate for purposes of illustration.


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## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

Here's another example of what I mean (keep in mind recording equipment accounts for some of the difference, but not all of it).

compare this





to this






The first clip is still some very good singing compared to most modern singers, but you'll notice the flowing warmth and of the second version are lost. Less feminine, more like a gritty pioneer grandmother (although I suppose that's not an entirely bad thing).


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## tsquare07 (Sep 22, 2018)

I thought about this the other day. The impression that i get from reading all of the comments (this forum, reddit and youtube) is that there's is a very sudden decline around the 60s or 70s (some say 80s or 90s) in qualities of voices. As if once upon a time, people knew how to sing well and then they just...didn't. No one can seems to explain it. Some people say conductors don't understand the voice anymore. They cast singers for the wrong reps or they orchestra is too loud. Or the lack of teachers. But there's has always been "a lack of teachers", or so people complained, even in the time of Verdi. Or maybe because of more traveling? Or the business is moving too quickly leaving the development of the voice behind? Or maybe most the voices we had in the past were just all a genetics accident?

Whatever the cause(s) maybe, i still don't like the bullying undertone of some of “This is opera” videos. Giving constructive criticism is very different from demeaning another singer. But I don’t disagree with their whole premise. Nowadays, with vowels being much less clear and the legato seems to be lacking, I would yearn to be able to listen to the old greats live in theater.

But to say modern singers of just being lazy for not using enough chest voice is too simple for me (And i’m not saying you are doing that, just my observation). I just don’t think mastering vocal technique is that easy, especially to sing like the old greats. And with the lack of knowledgable teachers, I say everyone is at fault and no one is fault (for not knowing how to sing) at the same time. These discussions are very interesting, but somehow the gap between saying the right things technically and putting these words into practice is just so big. If the gap were small, today would just be the continuation of the golden age, right?


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

BalalaikaBoy said:


> Here's another example of what I mean (keep in mind recording equipment accounts for some of the difference, but not all of it).
> 
> compare this
> 
> ...


I hear a difference in interpretation. Steber's is more thought out and contemplative, Gluck's more spontaneous and with a perfectly judged blend of sentiment and taste. Are you looking for vocal superiority in Steber? I don't hear that. I think they're both beyond reproach. Given that we can't hear accurately the timbre of any soprano recorded in 1914, Gluck might even be better than Steber. We can at least hear a voice that's absolutely free, steady and even, with fully developed and integrated registers (just as Steber's is). I found Gluck quite moving in her effortless sincerity.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Mistake


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## Op.123 (Mar 25, 2013)

Some of these points I agree with others not so much. It's worth noting that many singers of the early 20th century were singing mainly Verdi, Verismo and contemporary works and had been schooled appropriately. The veristic school of singing valued an instrument clearly audible and even throughout registers which meant many used chest voice very frequently. Rather than chest voice being used as a less frequent expressive device, they used a strong head voice for occasional varied effect. This isn't wrong it's just a different approach to singing and can be heard in many, especially Italian, singers in the earlier decades of the 20th century. 

I'm not sure that Callas's registers were unbalanced in her prime, but that maybe an imbalance was created over time due to other factors. Rather, constriction in other areas ended up causing an imbalance more than constriction being caused by an imbalance itself. Her chest was undoubtedly strong, but she used it less frequently and didn't have noticeably less head participation than many successful singers of the early 20th century. Many Italian singers of those earlier decades had more open voices with less falsetto participation than say Milanov, Ponselle, Tebaldi or even Destinn.


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## tsquare07 (Sep 22, 2018)

Op.123 said:


> I'm not sure that Callas's registers were unbalanced in her prime, but that maybe an imbalance was created over time due to other factors. Rather, constriction in other areas ended up causing an imbalance more than constriction being caused by an imbalance itself. Her chest was undoubtedly strong, but she used it less frequently and didn't have noticeably less head participation than many successful singers of the early 20th century. Many Italian singers of those earlier decades had more open voices with less falsetto participation than say Milanov, Ponselle, Tebaldi or even Destinn.


Regarding Callas
There's the famous decline of her voice after 1953. We don't know clearly what happened. But Callas said herself that (not exact quote) "the voice must have thousands of color, and sometimes i would sing roughly (probably refering to her Medea, Mcbeth and Norma) to portray the characters". And while some singing teachers seems to advocate a more "reserved" approach (be emotional but don't take too much risk with the instrument to keep its beauty), Callas was the opposite. Any color that is most appropriate to the drama, she would strive to create it, doesn't matter how unhealthy and potentially instrument-breaking that might be. Or at least that's my impression. I don't remember who said it, but Callas shredded her voice into thousand pieces for expression. I think this, entangled with the famous decline and all the personal trauma, sped up that declining process.


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## Shaafee Shameem (Aug 4, 2021)

Op.123 said:


> Some of these points I agree with others not so much. It's worth noting that many singers of the early 20th century were singing mainly Verdi, Verismo and contemporary works and had been schooled appropriately. The veristic school of singing valued an instrument clearly audible and even throughout registers which meant many used chest voice very frequently. Rather than chest voice being used as a less frequent expressive device, they used a strong head voice for occasional varied effect. This isn't wrong it's just a different approach to singing and can be heard in many, especially Italian, singers in the earlier decades of the 20th century.
> 
> I'm not sure that Callas's registers were unbalanced in her prime, but that maybe an imbalance was created over time due to other factors. Rather, constriction in other areas ended up causing an imbalance more than constriction being caused by an imbalance itself. Her chest was undoubtedly strong, but she used it less frequently and didn't have noticeably less head participation than many successful singers of the early 20th century. Many Italian singers of those earlier decades had more open voices with less falsetto participation than say Milanov, Ponselle, Tebaldi or even Destinn.


In fact, Callas used very little chest participation in middle voice than any of her contemporaries, which is what made it seem slightly veiled and dusky. It also enabled her to have more fluidity and flexibility in the middle register than any other singer of the 20th century.


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## Op.123 (Mar 25, 2013)

Shaafee Shameem said:


> In fact, Callas used very little chest participation in middle voice than any of her contemporaries, which is what made it seem slightly veiled and dusky. It also enabled her to have more fluidity and flexibility in the middle register than any other singer of the 20th century.


Her chest participation in her middle register was very varied. At her best it was definitely there, at her worst it had completely vanished. Chest participation in the middle register is important for scuro in that region of the voice and singers like Bruna Rasa and Oralia Dominguez were great at joining their lower registers to their upper registers. I would not say Callas having less chest participation in the middle of her voice helped her in any way as it seems to have been a symptom of her vocal decline. An example of a great singer with not enough chest participation in their middle voice would be Simionato. Wonderful lower register, wonderful upper register yet she often failed to bridge the notes between F4 and B4 successfully. It is a fault in basically all of today's singers too.


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## vivalagentenuova (Jun 11, 2019)

I agree with the overall point that you need some stylistic sensitivity -- but you also want to make sure you're not eliminating effects the composer may have intended. Melba ends her "Porgi amor" by singing "morir" in chest voice, a word that it makes perfect sense to sing in chest voice. Many sopranos who could have done so do not, because, I guess, they consider it an inappropriate effect for a Mozart piece. Imo, Melba is correct because she is matching a vocal effect to a dramatic moment, not deciding a priori that Mozart is a certain way therefore chest voice isn't allowed. Also, certain phrases just sound weak without chest voice. Thorborg does a wonderful "Weiche Wotan", but it's WEICHE WOtan WEIche because she doesn't lean into those low notes the way, say, Schumann-Heink does. To me that loses something, though it's a case where I think it's up to the singer. 

One place I where I think chest voice is absolutely mandatory is the opening of "Tu che le vanita". "You who knew the vanities of the world/and enjoy within the grave your profound slumber". At least "mondo" and "profondo" must be sung in chest voice because the vocal line is painting the words, going down into the lower register as the singer speaks of the vain world and the depth of rest found in the grave. It also creates great contrast with the subsequent line, as Elisabetta's thoughts turn to heaven. TIO used this section to critique Yannis Nezet-Seguin's vocal masterclass, although they talked about it as a matter of vocal technique not of dramatic interpretation in the way I just did. That to me was one of their weaknesses. They insisted that Freni was wrong to sing "ma quando vien lo sgelo" in head voice because "it's Puccini not Debussy". Well, Puccini _loved _Debussy, and the dramatic effect can be realized well both ways in that specific context.


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## Shaafee Shameem (Aug 4, 2021)

Op.123 said:


> Her chest participation in her middle register was very varied. At her best it was definitely there, at her worst it had completely vanished. Chest participation in the middle register is important for scuro in that region of the voice and singers like Bruna Rasa and Oralia Dominguez were great at joining their lower registers to their upper registers. I would not say Callas having less chest participation in the middle of her voice helped her in any way as it seems to have been a symptom of her vocal decline. An example of a great singer with not enough chest participation in their middle voice would be Simionato. Wonderful lower register, wonderful upper register yet she often failed to bridge the notes between F4 and B4 successfully. It is a fault in basically all of today's singers too.


But Bruna Rasa and Dominguez were primarily verismo singers, and Rasa in particular lacked flexibility. Sopranos of the 19th and early 20th century such as Tetrazzini, Melba, Lehman, Leider, Raisa among others have a very heady tone in the middle register, and a clear break when passing from Middle to chest. One can hear it very clearly in Raisa’s ‘Voi lo Sapete’. Even later on sopranos like Ponselle, Early Tebaldi sound less chestier in their middle than Bruna Rasa or Caniglia for instance. As such their emission is more fluid. For instance Bruna Rasa’s singing of ‘Voi lo Sapete’ compared to Callas, Raisa or Ponselle, sounds very rough and every note discernibly stands out like staccati.


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## Op.123 (Mar 25, 2013)

Shaafee Shameem said:


> But Bruna Rasa and Dominguez were primarily verismo singers, and Rasa in particular lacked flexibility. Sopranos of the 19th and early 20th century such as Tetrazzini, Melba, Lehman, Leider, Raisa among others have a very heady tone in the middle register, and a clear break when passing from Middle to chest. One can hear it very clearly in Raisa’s ‘Voi lo Sapete’. Even later on sopranos like Ponselle, Early Tebaldi sound less chestier in their middle than Bruna Rasa or Caniglia for instance. As such their emission is more fluid. For instance Bruna Rasa’s singing of ‘Voi lo Sapete’ compared to Callas, Raisa or Ponselle, sounds very rough and every note discernibly stands out like staccati.


I don't hear a heady tone with Tetrazzini's middle register. It's very well coordinated. Rosa Raisa too, only has a overly heady tone in her later recordings after she started consciously using less chest and the sound of her instrument as a whole degraded considerably. Bruna Rasa certainly had a little more chest in the mix than many, but not to a remarkable extent. There's no reason that a properly developed voice would have any more trouble with flexibility by integrating their chest voice with their head voice. Callas certainly sounds just as capable when she blends the two registers as she does when she doesn't and there are far more instances of her pulling out of scuro in the middle of her voice when the instrument began to fail.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Op.123 said:


> Her chest participation in her middle register was very varied. At her best it was definitely there, at her worst it had completely vanished. Chest participation in the middle register is important for scuro in that region of the voice and singers like Bruna Rasa and Oralia Dominguez were great at joining their lower registers to their upper registers. I would not say Callas having less chest participation in the middle of her voice helped her in any way as it seems to have been a symptom of her vocal decline. An example of a great singer with not enough chest participation in their middle voice would be Simionato. Wonderful lower register, wonderful upper register yet she often failed to bridge the notes between F4 and B4 successfully. It is a fault in basically all of today's singers too.


You say these things so much better than me. I don't think you can have the type of mezzo voice I like unless you do this and so many mezzos today sound like sopranos.


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## ScottK (Dec 23, 2021)

BalalaikaBoy said:


> I shared a piece in another thread (posted below) that got me thinking: most of y'all know I became a convert to the This Is Opera school of promoting traditional technique, but some of them (likely including myself) overdo it. For example, a lot of them over-correct into this mindset of "you should use as much chest voice as you can whenever possible!"
> 
> ...that's not how it works. Yes, everyone needs to develop both their head voice and their chest voice, but
> 1) That doesn't mean you have to use it all the time. Singers like Eileen Farrell, Gertrude Grob-Prandl and Kerstin Thorborg used their chest voices less frequently and less abruptly than your typical Italian singer of the interwar period, but they all had MONSTER voices which could project clear to the back of any opera hall in the world.
> ...


Love this rendition! Another famous singer I don’t know, mostly because she doesn’t sing a lot of music I listen to. But I agree, the rendition feels close to perfect. Now for the gorilla in the corner of Scott’s room and the reason for the post… Chest voice! I know from experience, you all will continue the discussion at a more in-depth level, so I will shake off the fear that I am bringing the question down to its lowest common denominator. My impression of listening to this, aside from a couple of notes, and maybe a phrase or two… The -dah of Judah and another phrase soon after the Judah’s… Reminded me of our chest voice discussion a while, back in which, as I remember, Flagstad was observed to be not using any chest voice in a section where someone else did. Her lower range is so evenly blended with the rest of the voice, but it’s still so satisfyingly full, that I would not have any doubt that that indicates a healthy employing of chest voice. But apropos of the Flagstad example and because it is so evenly blended, I can’t hear what it is that allows one to say on this particular note chest voice is being employed, and on this particular note, it is not. HOWEVER…. We have been through this before, and you Bboy and many others have shared examples and thoughts and trust me… I ain’t asking y’all to go there again🤔😆🤓!!! I just couldn’t resist, putting in my observation!


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## Shaafee Shameem (Aug 4, 2021)

Op.123 said:


> I don't hear a heady tone with Tetrazzini's middle register. It's very well coordinated. Rosa Raisa too, only has a overly heady tone in her later recordings after she started consciously using less chest and the sound of her instrument as a whole degraded considerably. Bruna Rasa certainly had a little more chest in the mix than many, but not to a remarkable extent. There's no reason that a properly developed voice would have any more trouble with flexibility by integrating their chest voice with their head voice. Callas certainly sounds just as capable when she blends the two registers as she does when she doesn't and there are far more instances of her pulling out of scuro in the middle of her voice when the instrument began to fail.


By heady tone, I don’t mean collapsed head voice. I believe that even early on, Callas’ voice tends to have stronger falsetto participation than chest, and similarly for Raisa and Tetrazzini, though all of them certainly had chest voice. Isn’t it clear though that sopranos before the peak of Verismo in the 20s and 30s tended to have a different method of vocal production? One may compare the first Manon Lescaut, Cesira Ferrani to Clara Petrella to see just how different vocal production had become in a few years.


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## ScottK (Dec 23, 2021)

You guys are fun! For whatever reason when I started to type, my phone had not shown me all of the other responses that have been written. I made a passing remark that you would all have your discussion, regardless of my simple question, and by the time I was done typing, it was a legal documents worth of language on the topic of chest voice and interpretation! I love it!!


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## ScottK (Dec 23, 2021)

And on a second read through of the post after going back to listen to Gluck and Steber , I have one final observation, that I trust that any of you who participated in the post will read, as being stated with fondness and admiration… I do love passion for an individual singer(perhaps someday someone on here, will share mine for Bergonzi, but…🤔😁🤓!!!). If someone were to read the extensive posts and THEN go back to see what examples were used by Bboy at the beginning of the post, I think it probably would come as a surprise, that not one of those singers name, begins with Maria Cal…!😉!


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## PaulFranz (May 7, 2019)

BalalaikaBoy said:


> imagine someone singing Zerlina that way?


I don't have to imagine it. It's wonderful.







My problem with TIO is mostly that they completely overlook the downsides of bellowy, hyperchesty singing: intonation and wobble problems. They don't even seem to notice. That said, they are dead right that post-war singing is nowhere near chesty enough. The solution isn't to scream like Del Monaco or late-career Gigli, though (or later Tebaldi). Clarity and evenness can be achieved without overdarkening and pushing a chesty mechanism.

Bright, intelligible singing is necessarily based on the chest voice, so even John McCormack and Giuseppe de Luca and Nellie Melba and all the others sound very chesty to me compared to modern singers, but no one would accuse them of oversinging or overdarkening.

EDIT: The straight tones in that Otter clip are absolutely hideous.


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## ScottK (Dec 23, 2021)

Done in by my own tech incompetence again. What I was headed for was to assert ( with example!!!) that Gueden’s ‘55 rendition could not possibly, to me, be assailed for lack of the attributes you mention, as requiring more chest than post war singers regularly have. Curious whether we disagree on her success or do you hear more chest in her singing?


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## PaulFranz (May 7, 2019)

ScottK said:


> Done in by my own tech incompetence again. What I was headed for was to assert ( with example!!!) that Gueden’s ‘55 rendition could not possibly, to me, be assailed for lack of the attributes you mention, as requiring more chest than post war singers regularly have. Curious whether we disagree on her success or do you hear more chest in her singing?


Is this to me? Could you be more specific?


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## ScottK (Dec 23, 2021)

My original was specific, but as I mentioned… By the time I was done bungling it up too much had been lost. Take 2…..Hilde Gueden’s 1955 rendition of batti batti, to me, is filled with the attributes that you say in the previous post, happen when a voice has the required amount of chest voice in the sound. So I was asking… Do you find those virtues of evenness and clarity and I think there was one more, to be NOT present in her singing or do you think that she has an adequate amount of chest in her sound? PS the cut comes up easily on YouTube


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## PaulFranz (May 7, 2019)

ScottK said:


> My original was specific, but as I mentioned… By the time I was done bungling it up too much had been lost. Take 2…..Hilde Gueden’s 1955 rendition of batti batti, to me, is filled with the attributes that you say in the previous post, happen when a voice has the required amount of chest voice in the sound. So I was asking… Do you find those virtues of evenness and clarity and I think there was one more, to be NOT present in her singing or do you think that she has an adequate amount of chest in her sound? PS the cut comes up easily on YouTube







I definitely do not hear an adequate amount of chest in her sound. There's a half-supported, breathy, weak sound from the middle to the bottom. It's very unfocused, light, and crooned, so I'd say it lacks clarity. The top seems screamed and completely detached from the rest of her voice, so I'd call that uneven. She also has a number of straight tones, the hallmark of the post-war light-rep German singer. 

Adelina's version seems to have been recorded a half-step lower, but I think we can still safely compare their techniques, and they seem radically different to me. Patti is much chestier throughout and more interesting (giving allowances for the trouble that advanced age gives her).


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## Revitalized Classics (Oct 31, 2018)

PaulFranz said:


> I definitely do not hear an adequate amount of chest in her sound. There's a half-supported, breathy, weak sound from the middle to the bottom. It's very unfocused, light, and crooned, so I'd say it lacks clarity. The top seems screamed and completely detached from the rest of her voice, so I'd call that uneven. She also has a number of straight tones, the hallmark of the post-war light-rep German singer.
> 
> Adelina's version seems to have been recorded a half-step lower, but I think we can still safely compare their techniques, and they seem radically different to me. Patti is much chestier throughout and more interesting (giving allowances for the trouble that advanced age gives her).


In both her versions (1904 and 1906) Marcella Sembrich sings it in a forthright way which I enjoy with more akin to Patti's chestier approach than subsequent versions


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## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

Woodduck said:


> I hear a difference in interpretation. Steber's is more thought out and contemplative, Gluck's more spontaneous and with a perfectly judged blend of sentiment and taste. Are you looking for vocal superiority in Steber? I don't hear that. I think they're both beyond reproach. We can at least hear a voice that's absolutely free, steady and even, with fully developed and integrated registers (just as Steber's is). I found Gluck quite moving in her effortless sincerity.


In retrospect, I'm gonna have to concede most of this. This piece was written by a freed slave, so the more grounded, earnest interpretation of Alma Gluck does feel more appropriate. She sounds like someone who lives off the land in some capacity, works with her hands, feels the soil. Steber sounds more like the daughter of a plantation owner reminiscing about her childhood estate. 


The one point I'll refute this this one


> Given that we can't hear accurately the timbre of any soprano recorded in 1914, Gluck might even be better than Steber.


If you listen to this clip of Claudia Muzio from just 8 years later, you can still hear that "bloom" I'm talking about more clearly.


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## ScottK (Dec 23, 2021)

PaulFranz said:


> I definitely do not hear an adequate amount of chest in her sound. There's a half-supported, breathy, weak sound from the middle to the bottom. It's very unfocused, light, and crooned, so I'd say it lacks clarity. The top seems screamed and completely detached from the rest of her voice, so I'd call that uneven. She also has a number of straight tones, the hallmark of the post-war light-rep German singer.
> 
> Adelina's version seems to have been recorded a half-step lower, but I think we can still safely compare their techniques, and they seem radically different to me. Patti is much chestier throughout and more interesting (giving allowances for the trouble that advanced age gives her).


Wow!!!.... We live in different operatic galaxies! That's not for a second intended as a negative remark, just an objective one! And if TIO had conducted themselves in discussion as you guys do, I would have found it much easier to try on their take on things. I listened to Patti twice and Sembrich but it's just too old for me. I know their legendary reputations but I honestly hear little of interest to me - one, i still don't get the chest voice extra importance thing and two, the recordings are just too old. Gluck and Muzio are starting to be - TO ME - worth my time. And Gueden is a delight of a Zerlina to me, filling the bill in just about every way. "Chacun a .....!"


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## PaulFranz (May 7, 2019)

ScottK said:


> one, i still don't get the chest voice extra importance thing


Oversimplified explanation:

"Chest voice" refers to the activity of the thyroarytenoid muscles, which shorten, loosen, and thicken the vocal folds. This results in a greater area of contact and firmer adduction. Greater area of contact = longer closed phase = louder voice. Firmer adduction = less escaped breath = less escaped energy = louder and more efficient. 

All opera singers try to sing loudly, and doing so with chest voice is more efficient than doing so with head voice. In head voice, the cricothyroids stiffen, stretch, and thin out the vocal folds, allowing much easier high notes but sacrificing loudness and efficiency. 

The TA muscles and the CT muscles are always working together, as are other laryngeal muscles, but favoring one or the other group will lead to a different sound. Modern popular singers neglect the CT, relatively speaking, so that their notes above the passaggio sound shouted and are much more tiring. Modern operatic singers neglect the TA, so that they are forced to look for volume elsewhere, trying to force the vocal folds shut in inefficient ways to increase the closed phase (how long the cords are touching, building up air pressure below them). This inefficiency leads to wobbling and vocal fatigue. They fight more for sound and get less sound this way, leading to ugly, forced, or quiet voices (and very often, all three).

For women, chest voice is the best way to get sound below the secondo passaggio, and those who eschew it end up with anemic low ranges. But a certain amount of TA activity is still needed throughout their entire voices: without it, they run into the above-named issues: lack of focus, extra effort, lack of volume.


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## ScottK (Dec 23, 2021)

as john would say...mistake!


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## ScottK (Dec 23, 2021)

PaulFranz said:


> Oversimplified explanation:
> 
> "Chest voice" refers to the activity of the thyroarytenoid muscles, which shorten, loosen, and thicken the vocal folds. This results in a greater area of contact and firmer adduction. Greater area of contact = longer closed phase = louder voice. Firmer adduction = less escaped breath = less escaped energy = louder and more efficient.
> 
> ...


When I asked my ENT "what happens when a singer knows a note will break and forces" he described pretty much what you are saying when you say forcing the vocal folds shut in inefficient ways. I assume this uses muscles other than the two groups you mentioned.

I like your explanation alot and trust it. Where I think we part company is our response to the sound. Gueden et. al. are approaching sound production in a certain way and you hear it showing up poorly in the sound - using Gueden as the obvious representative. I pay attention to the sound but hear things that I'm hoping for.

When I hear tenors - the easiest examples - starting out with a promising sound - Gedda, Lamberti, Burrows, Carreras, Sylvester, Margison - and come back either later in the career or in different repertory and the sound has become far more ordinary the most obvious change is almost always ease of production. SOMETHING has led that singer to "force the vocal folds shut in an inefficient way". your explanation holds! And anyone who deteriorates prematurely would seem to be a candidate. But Vickers, Bergonzi, Krause, Tucker, Merrill, Hines, Tozzi, Christoff, Sutherland, Price, Kirsten, Berry, Siepi, Domingo, Schwarzkopf all had long careers. I can find things to object to in each ones production at the pinnacle of their careers. But to me their all giants. I'm not really a Domingo fan but I think he's a giant!


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## ewilkros (8 mo ago)

more gritty hick granny


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## ewilkros (8 mo ago)

and another


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## ewilkros (8 mo ago)

and another


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## ewilkros (8 mo ago)

and another


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## Op.123 (Mar 25, 2013)

ScottK said:


> Wow!!!.... We live in different operatic galaxies! That's not for a second intended as a negative remark, just an objective one! And if TIO had conducted themselves in discussion as you guys do, I would have found it much easier to try on their take on things. I listened to Patti twice and Sembrich but it's just too old for me. I know their legendary reputations but I honestly hear little of interest to me - one, i still don't get the chest voice extra importance thing and two, the recordings are just too old. Gluck and Muzio are starting to be - TO ME - worth my time. And Gueden is a delight of a Zerlina to me, filling the bill in just about every way. "Chacun a .....!"


What about this? Starts at 0:50


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## ScottK (Dec 23, 2021)

Op.123 said:


> What about this? Starts at 0:50


That's starting to feel like the "about as good as it gets" catgory. And without any question that easy darkness in the lower register makes her sound equal parts charming girl and very attractive woman. It's wonderful! Now, without going to listen first, my mind went to Bartoli who, out of the gate, took the world by storm On here, she usually loses people with over interpretation but In my minds ear, hers is a darker soubrette.


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## Op.123 (Mar 25, 2013)

ScottK said:


> That's starting to feel like the "about as good as it gets" catgory. And without any question that easy darkness in the lower register makes her sound equal parts charming girl and very attractive woman. It's wonderful! Now, without going to listen first, my mind went to Bartoli who, out of the gate, took the world by storm On here, she usually loses people with over interpretation but In my minds ear, hers is a darker soubrette.


I can't stand Bartoli. I've even had people who have no interest in historical singers and are used to small voices tell me they were shocked by how small the voice is live. Any darkness in her voice is entirely artificial.


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## ScottK (Dec 23, 2021)

Op.123 said:


> I can't stand Bartoli. I've even had people who have no interest in historical singers and are used to small voices tell me they were shocked by how small the voice is live. Any darkness in her voice is entirely artificial.


While running errands, I’ve been listening to her in the car… She makes a convincing argument, in a Sayao-esque way on recording. Kathleen Battle’s Suzanna on TV and radio Knocked my socks off and was too small in the house so I don’t doubt the potential for what you’re saying. What do you hear on recording that makes you dislike her so… I’m talking voice production, not interpretation.


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## Op.123 (Mar 25, 2013)

ScottK said:


> While running errands, I’ve been listening to her in the car… She makes a convincing argument, in a Sayao-esque way on recording. Kathleen Battle’s Suzanna on TV and radio Knocked my socks off and was too small in the house so I don’t doubt the potential for what you’re saying. What do you hear on recording that makes you dislike her so… I’m talking voice production, not interpretation.


The voice just sounds thin and unattractive. She doesn't engage her chest voice properly and there is very little core and she hardly has the fullness of a mezzo, not even a lyric mezzo.


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## ewilkros (8 mo ago)

ScottK said:


> That's starting to feel like the "about as good as it gets" category. And without any question that easy darkness in the lower register makes [Sayão] sound equal parts charming girl and very attractive woman. It's wonderful!....


For the low end of her voice check out from 1:38 (but listen to the whole thing!)


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

ewilkros said:


> For the low end of her voice check out from 1:38 (but listen to the whole thing!)


That was amazing for such a perfectly placed lyric voice. She is a very impressive singer. She has done well in contests.


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

PaulFranz said:


> Oversimplified explanation:
> 
> "Chest voice" refers to the activity of the thyroarytenoid muscles, which shorten, loosen, and thicken the vocal folds. This results in a greater area of contact and firmer adduction. Greater area of contact = longer closed phase = louder voice. Firmer adduction = less escaped breath = less escaped energy = louder and more efficient.
> 
> ...


A wonderful explanation, thanks!

I just have one question, would you say that underuse of TA or CT also depends on voice type when it comes to classical singers? Some male singers could do with more CT in the mix above the passaggio for example?

N.


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## ScottK (Dec 23, 2021)

Op.123 said:


> The voice just sounds thin and unattractive. She doesn't engage her chest voice properly and there is very little core and she hardly has the fullness of a mezzo, not even a lyric mezzo.


Well…probably would’ve been a little much to ask to think we’d line up on everything😆 but I did get to listen to Sayao for the first time in a long time, and that was more than worth it! And you’ve got me started listening to the lower half of voices a little more actively so you guys have left me with some nice holiday cheer! Merry ho ho ho!😁!


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## ScottK (Dec 23, 2021)

ewilkros said:


> For the low end of her voice check out from 1:38 (but listen to the whole thing!)


My response to this Has to be taken with a grain of salt, because she still is a superior artist, and has a great voice, and I am really only speaking compared to the singing she did in the Mozart. I’m assuming she’s a bit older, the pointed sound in the upper register isn’t as appealing, nor as effortless. the low stuff, impressive in its way, strikes me in more of a folk song, novelty kind of sound. I’m certain appropriate for the material, but it’s not the kind of chest sound that makes the impression on me that the integrated sound made in the Mozart. But mind you I’m really not nearly as big a soprano aficionado as I’m guessing you guys are. You are putting Bidu back on my radar… got to be the 70’s when I had the Mozart album…lord knows who ended up with it!!


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## ewilkros (8 mo ago)

ScottK said:


> I’m assuming [Sayão]’s a bit older...


The "Batti, batti" is March 9, 1942, c. Erich Leinsdorf; the "O' kinimba" is June 2, 1947, with Milne Charnley, piano. I find that she actually gets _better_, at least on the Met broadcasts, until she peaks in the two Elisir broadcasts in 1949, particularly in the effortless floats; but that's just perception.

If you're inspired to restock your supplies of Sayão, I suggest the two Masterworks Heritage CDs issued in the late 1990's for the Columbia recordings:









Bidú Sayão - Bachiana Brasiliera No. 5 Opera Arias & Brazilian Folksongs


View credits, reviews, tracks and shop for the 1996 CD release of "Bachiana Brasiliera No. 5 Opera Arias & Brazilian Folksongs" on Discogs.




www.discogs.com













Bidú Sayão - La Damoiselle Élue • Opera Arias


View credits, reviews, tracks and shop for the 1997 CD release of "La Damoiselle Élue • Opera Arias" on Discogs.




www.discogs.com





That whole series is beautifully done, going back to the original 16-inch acetates Columbia was using for their masters, not the tape transfers of same done for the early LP issues. As for the RCA's, I don't know of any comprehensive collection of them since an RCA Camden LP from 1957:









Bidú Sayão - The Art Of Bidu Sayao


Explore songs, recommendations, and other album details for The Art Of Bidu Sayao by Bidú Sayão. Compare different versions and buy them all on Discogs.




www.discogs.com





The 1936 reording of "Gentile di cuore" from Gomes' Guarany is in the "Record of Singing" vol. 3 and the "Very Best of Record of Singing" boxes:


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## PaulFranz (May 7, 2019)

The Conte said:


> A wonderful explanation, thanks!
> 
> I just have one question, would you say that underuse of TA or CT also depends on voice type when it comes to classical singers? Some male singers could do with more CT in the mix above the passaggio for example?
> 
> N.


Singing involves a complex interaction of muscles, and a big part of the reason I oversimplified is that nobody really understands how we make the astounding variety of sounds we can make. The simplest answer is that yes, there are probably tons of men who have underactive CT in their tops. This doesn't even necessarily mean that they have overactive TA on their tops either, though.

A rule of thumb for singing or listening though is if the answer to "Are all my vowels clear, ringing, and natural-sounding?" is yes, you very likely have enough TA participation. If the answer to "Is my voice handsome, dark, fluid, and rangy?" is yes, you likely have enough CT participation.

How much chest you can manage to bring up to your top, how easily your voice darkens and blooms, and many other things depend on your natural and your learned abilities--pretty much THE defining aspect of lyric vs. dramatic is that lyrics are unable to have as much chest voice up high. In old recordings, you can't hear timbre very well, and you can't directly hear volume on any recording, yet it's almost always been easy for me to identify the lyrics vs. the dramatics because of how much the dramatics sound like they're using their speaking voices in the upper halves of their voices.

So to answer your question in another way: in classical training, shouty production is usually identified and eliminated very early on, and today we have a problem of dark, sensitive, croony, throaty singing, and a very distinct lack of dramatic voices, so the problem almost always involves underactive TA. Very underactive CT would be found in a singer with a white, spread top that sounded closer to shouting or belting than you'd want or expect. It's rare, but not impossible. Both muscle groups can be underactive, so you get a thin, weak, and colorless top (very common in lighter singers). And because everything is a matter of degree, what "underactive" means can be a matter of opinion.

When I listen to the oldest generation of recorded singers, I hear a headier top than what came around Caruso's generation. So you might say that most after them had underactive CT (and probably overactive TA) up there. I think I'd agree with that.

Singers like Magini-Coletti, Battistini, Ancona, De Lucia, McCormack, Navarini, and Plançon all had this headier mix in their tops. McCormack is probably the latest-born to have the old style, unless I'm forgetting someone. Even the dramatic tenors, like Escalaïs, Affre, and Tamagno had it. I think that style of singing is the best and healthiest on record. They were probably loud enough for modern purposes and had on average better longevity and much, much suppler voices.

You can even trace it from Magini-Coletti to Pacini to Stracciari: Not much chest on top, more chest on top, lots of chest on top. And all in a relatively short time span, in Italian singers in similar rep with similarly dark voices.


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