# Can anybody suggest a decent opera?!



## Edward Elgar (Mar 22, 2006)

I've tried Mozart and I like that, but is there anything else out there that is continuously good throughout and has good tunes in it?


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## Shane (Dec 21, 2006)

Well, there are the obvious ones like most Wagner.
If you're looking for something out of the ordinary, I would suggest Shostakovich's "Lady Macbeth..."
That was a good starting point for me when I first began to develop a taste for Opera, and wanted something a little different.


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## Hexameron (Oct 7, 2006)

Verdi's _Il Trovatore_, Wagner's _Tristan und Isolde_, Beethoven's _Fidelio_, Weber's _Der Freischutz_, and Bellini's _Norma_.


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## cmb (Dec 20, 2006)

Are you going alone? With a friend? With a date?

What kind of composers do you like as a general rule?

Personally, I would steer away from Wagner as a first choice - the sheer length, even of Dutchman, is somewhat daunting.
Modern opera? Not a bad choice, but again, it would help to know what you regularly listen to.

You say Mozart, but which Mozart? Early, mid late?
Where did you see it? Was it at a large house with an international cast, or a smaller local venue?

All these things factor in - although i am nuts for opera, it _is_ an acquired taste, and usually one that requires multiple viewings of the same opera before it "takes."

Many opera-lovers report that it took them a while.

I'm not trying to make this off-putting at all just trying to help.


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## Kurkikohtaus (Oct 22, 2006)

Shane said:


> Well, there are the obvious ones like most Wagner.
> If you're looking for something out of the ordinary, I would suggest Shostakovich's "Lady Macbeth..."


No offence to Wagner, Shostakovich and Shane, but the original question asked for an opera that has lots of good tunes in it, possibly akin to Mozart... Wagner and Shostakovich may well be the antithesis of that style.

If you want good tunes and evenly balanced music (no long boring stretches, if I understand you correctly), try Puccinis *La Boheme*.


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## Topaz (Oct 25, 2006)

I agree with Kurkikohtaus that it's a big jump from Mozart to Wagner. 

Even though I greatly like both, it took a long while for me to appreciate Wagner. The best way into Wagner as a beginner is not to listen to any complete operas but to sample the "best of" extracts, and when the "penny drops" that's the time to venture into a whole opera. At that time the one I would go for first is Tristan Und Solde, which is very nice throughout and a good story. The orchestral side of this is especially magnificent

Before then, I like Puccini a great deal and agree that La Boheme is nice, but so too is Madame Butterly. 

Verdi's Otello and Aida are generally considered slightly further up the artistic scale than Puccini's, but I think the same comment applies as to Wagner.

As a general rule, I found a good way into opera were the excerpt recordings lasting about an hour or so. There are lots on the market. If you're generous, you can give them to your friends once you've finished with them, to help them into opera. Likewise, you might ask if any of them has anything to loan you.


Topaz


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## 4/4player (Nov 17, 2006)

You should try Rossini's "Barber of Seville"...the overture to that opera is one of the most famous overtures....its a comedy opera with some funny scenes...After that, you should see the opera by Mozart titled" The Marriage of Figaro".Surprisingly, this opera is the sequel to the barber of seville(Figaro is the barber). Two great operas to see one after the other. Hope you enjoy them!

4/4player


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## Kurkikohtaus (Oct 22, 2006)

For *Barber of Seville* I recommend an "Excerpts" album, as the bountiful recitatives may turn a new opera listener away from this work on a first hearing.


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## Topaz (Oct 25, 2006)

To be honest, I usually edit all my operas as there's usually a lot of minor material on most which doesn't attract me. The only ones I can listen to without any tampering are Le Nozze di Figaro, and Don Giovanni. Most others get some editing. Quite big chunks of the "Ring" I find a bit tedious, so I have greatly chopped that down to size. I enjoy opera far more this way, rather than forcing myself to listen to everything. 

It's one reason I like playing music off a PC as you can organise what you want to listen to exactly. I do the same thing with other works too, e.g. with a 7 CD box of Schumann solo piano I have edited that down to about 4 CD's worth on a play-list. 


Topaz


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## Guest (Dec 24, 2006)

A long time favourite of mine is Orphee et Eurydice, by Gluck, it has, imho, some of the most beautiful tunes you will find all in one opera, and a good version is:
J E Gardiner, Orch de L'Opera de Lyon, von Otter and Hendricks, but you must listen to it on a good Hi Fi LOL.


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## robert newman (Oct 4, 2006)

How about Berlioz 'The Damnation of Faust'. or his epic 'The Trojans' ?


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## Orgel (Dec 29, 2006)

Getting started in opera is a tricky business. "Highlights" albums are good, as are "selection" albums. One of the best I know is "Opera Goes To the Movies", featuring operatic selections added to such films as: "Fatal Attraction", "Apocalypse Now", "A Room With A View", "Godfather III", and *my favorite* ""Ebben? Ne andro lontana" from _La Wally_, used in the wonderful French film "Diva". The record was originally by RCAVictor.


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## Kurkikohtaus (Oct 22, 2006)

Mr. Newman, Sir Elgar was asking for an opera that is...


Edward Elgar said:


> continuously good throughout and has good tunes in it...


... to follow up on his experiences with Mozart.

Do you honestly think that Berlioz's forgotten operas are the right way to go? No offence to you or Berlioz, I'm just wondering what kind of arguments you can present to counter the complete irrelevancy of these works.


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## linz (Oct 5, 2006)

About Berlioz, the most pungent thing which can be said, is that he had an extremely fixed style of composing. Also Wagner himself admitted to being influence by 'Romeo et Juliet'. The opera deserve attention, but not as much as those of more melodic character such as Verdi or Wagner. My vote would be Bizet's 'Carmen', if it is melodies that interests you. In 'Tristan und Isolde' by Wagner, a theme introduced in the first prelude, is brought back throughout the opera, especially in the finale 'Liebestod', best opera ever written!


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## Guest (Jan 4, 2007)

May I intrude upon this thread to use my first post on the forum to suggest an old favourite, Leoncavallo's Pagliacci?
Musically, of course, it's not a patch on Mozart or Wagner but, taken on its own terms, it's a thoroughly satisfying piece of work. Leoncavallo doesn't drop a stitch in this, his most popular work; the drama holds the attention throughout and the elegant score is full of memorable tunes, "Vesti la giubba" being, of course, the best-known.


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## Kurkikohtaus (Oct 22, 2006)

_Pagliacci_ and it's partner-piece, Mascagni's _Cavaliera Rusticana_ don't get the acclaim that they deserve, quite paradoxically because of concert and cd-renderings of their repsective Intermezzi.

Musically, the intermezzi are sentimental schlock, but they were written to sound at very dramatically poignant points in the opera. Many good dramatic directors have done incredible things on stage during the intermezzi. The most interesting one I saw was an attempted rape interrupted by impotence (Cavaliera).

The operas deserve the attention that they don't get precisely for what jffrylg stated, that the drama holds the attention throughout. You can't even say that about all of Verdi's operas.


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## robert newman (Oct 4, 2006)

I defy anyone to watch a performance of Berlioz 'Damnation of Faust' and not be greatly moved by the sheer originality and power of his musical ideas. Berlioz didn't just aim for beauty but completely revolutionised the way we approach stage music. I have to hand a 1999 DVD (made in Salzburg) of this opera. The word 'genius' is so often used these days but in Berlioz's case it's surely appropriate. I rate him as perhaps the greatest musician of the 19th century next to Beethoven. I agree he is an acquired taste. A discovery I made quite recently. Awesome, beautiful and powerful also. Glorious music.


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## Hexameron (Oct 7, 2006)

Agreed Robert. We're looking forward to your Berlioz article for the next Composer of the Week.


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## Topaz (Oct 25, 2006)

Yes, Robert, it had better not be late. BTW, are you aware of what some folk have been saying about Symphonie Fantastique? I have done my best to come to its defence because I think this work is, shall we say, "fantastique", but you may wish to add some reinforcement. Oddly, it's in the Tchaikosky thread! Where else. 

Bonsoir.



Saphire


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## Guest (Jan 12, 2007)

Damn , my ears are burning, always in trouble me


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## Guest (Jan 12, 2007)

*A good suggestion*

I am surprised that nobody thought of suggesting Rossini. He should be a very good choice.


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## StlukesguildOhio (Dec 25, 2006)

No offence to Wagner, Shostakovich and Shane, but the original question asked for an opera that has lots of good tunes in it, possibly akin to Mozart... Wagner and Shostakovich may well be the antithesis of that style.

I certainly agree. While I am absolutely enamored of Wagner's _Tristan und Isolde_ especially in the exquisitely erotic rendering by Karajan... his approach to opera is most definitely not anywhere near Mozart's and his concept of Opera as a seres of lovely tunes. I would be far more likely to suggest Rossini's _Barber..._, Bizet's _Carmen_ or something by Donizetti.


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## hlolli (Dec 31, 2006)

Try operas from Alan Berg or Philip Glass


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## robert newman (Oct 4, 2006)

Oh, goodness, do I have to write a short article on the life and music of Berlioz ? 

Well, I will try to make one by tomorrow evening. 

Regards


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## cmb (Dec 20, 2006)

quote:
hlolli Try operas from Alan Berg or Philip Glass

endquote

yeah...right....they write such tunes you leave the theater humming along with. Or in the case of Glass, that would be 2 notes.

don't get me wrong - I *like* both of them.


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## toughcritic (Jan 22, 2007)

Puccini's Tosca should do it for ya.


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## classiko (Jan 23, 2007)

I like mussorgsky opera!!


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## Manuel (Feb 1, 2007)

Well...

ehem..

there's this guy... Donizetti, he wrote some interesting pieces.


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## orquesta tipica (Jan 17, 2007)

Ah, I can't let this one go without a mention for Henry Purcell's "Dido and Aeneas". It's a masterpiece creation, full of wonderful tunes, and it's not very long, and it's even sung in English! How can the listener go wrong with this one, eh?


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## Edward Elgar (Mar 22, 2006)

hlolli said:


> Try operas from Alan Berg or Philip Glass


Forgive me, but I'd rather stick my head in a bucket of hyena hoffle! Can Philip Glass write more than one theme! I'm amazed!


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## sebastianglabo (Mar 18, 2007)

puccini is very good.


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## tutto (Apr 11, 2007)

good opera??
pavarotti, ny, london.. 
..huh..


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## Manuel (Feb 1, 2007)

> good opera??
> pavarotti, ny, london..
> ..huh..


Could you please.... elaborate?


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## zlya (Apr 9, 2007)

Ok, so you want an opera that's good throughout? Sounds like you should try something short. I recommend Strauss (Richard, not Johann). Go with Salome for a first try: intensely exciting and only one act. I'm not sure what constitutes a good tune, but it's got crazy beautiful music that should make you fall over.


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## Manuel (Feb 1, 2007)

> Ok, so you want an opera that's good throughout?


Get Karajan-Stratas doing Lehar's *Die lustige witwe*. They skip the dialogue, so it looks like a real opera rather than an operetta. _It's full of good tunes you can whistle in your way to work or school._


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## tutto (Apr 11, 2007)

Yeah,Manuel,mr....
Isn´t opera more matter of knowledge(history,zeitgeist) than of nice music,
to get deep inside the scene, to dive in it??

especially,if musicians are swimming...)


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## Manuel (Feb 1, 2007)

tutto said:


> Yeah,Manuel,mr....
> Isn´t opera more matter of knowledge(history,zeitgeist) than of nice music,
> to get deep inside the scene, to dive in it??


I suppose you haven't really read the post that initiated this thread...



> I've tried Mozart and I like that, but is there anything else out there that is _continuously good _throughout _and has good tunes_ in it?


and



tutto said:


> Yeah,Manuel,mr....
> Isn´t opera more matter of knowledge *than of nice music*,


No. According to my taste, an opera with bad music is also a bad opera.


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## Guest (Apr 13, 2007)

Very strange comments about Berlioz.



> Do you honestly think that Berlioz's forgotten operas are the right way to go? No offence to you or Berlioz, I'm just wondering what kind of arguments you can present to counter the complete irrelevancy of these works.


 from Kurkikohtaus and


> Berlioz...had an extremely fixed style of composing.


 from linz. To take the latter first, in his own time Berlioz was accused of changing style for each piece. He was bewildering well into the twentieth century because there seemed no common thread, no continuity of style. What could "extremely fixed" mean, anyway? Maybe constantly changing styles is fixed style. He always changes. Somehow I don't think that's what linz meant. A little help here?

In the other one, there's a similar breakdown of meaning. I refer of course to "complete irrelevancy." Again, what could that possibly mean? I'd venture to guess that it's not much more than "Berlioz has nothing for Kurkikohtaus," which would be fine, but somehow I don't think he meant that. I'm not reading minds here, but just drawing tentative conclusions from the words. As for forgotten, that's easy: by whom? I know all of them. I've seen all of them live, too, some several times. In the last few years, too. Someone's remembered them.

Better to listen to the works themselves. Benvenuto Cellini, Les Troyens, Beatriz et Benedict. Great music all of them. (Faust isn't really an opera; though it sounds operatic on the stereo, it has too little action to work well on stage. But what the hay, give that a listen, too. I think you'll find that they are all continuously good throughout and have good tunes.)


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## Kurkikohtaus (Oct 22, 2006)

My post about Berlioz was in the context of the *original poster's question*:


Edward Elgar said:


> I've tried Mozart and I like that, but is there anything else out there that is continuously good throughout and has good tunes in it?


As I said in the post you quoted, I don't think Berlioz is the right composer to follow up on Mozart's operas with, especially by the criteria that (forum member) Edward Elgar is asking for.

Certainly Verdi and Puccini fit this bill to a tee. If you want to start a debate about the melodies in Berlioz' operas vs. melodies in Verdi's operas, it will get very subjective. Therefore, I think a better indicator or the "relevance" of Berlioz would be to compare how often his operas are produced/recorded to how often Verdi's (or anyone else's) are produced/recorded. I do not doubt that *some guy* knows and has seen Berlioz's operas. But if we were to do an empirical study that ennumerates how many times certain composers' operas have been performed over the last 50 years around the world, I think the results would show that it would be fair to say that Berlioz is "forgotten and irrelevant", given that those may be somewhat exaggerated terms.


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## Guest (Apr 13, 2007)

Fair enough, all except for this:



> how many times certain composers' operas have been performed over the last 50 years around the world


By that criteria, Verdi and Puccini are forgotten and irrelevant next to Michael Jackson or Britney Spears (to name a couple of forgettable and frightfully irrelevant people who are or until recently have been terrifically popular).

What I would argue is that despite being played less frequently, Berlioz' operas are superb. If that's true, they will never be forgotten nor ever be irrelevant.


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## Manuel (Feb 1, 2007)

> how many times *certain composers' operas *have been performed over the last 50 years around the world





some guy said:


> By that criteria, Verdi and Puccini are forgotten and irrelevant next to _Michael Jackson _or _Britney Spears _(to name a couple of forgettable and frightfully irrelevant people who are or until recently have been terrifically popular).


I must confess I have never heard any of the operas by Michael Jackson, neither Ms Spears. Are they any good? Do they have nice tunes throughout? (which comes to be the reason that justifies the existence of this thread: not good operas in general, superb as you say, but nice operas with ear friendly tunes.

I don't think Kurkikohtaus discredits Berlioz for the sake of attacking him. He just said (it's yet not clear to me why you haven't seen this already) that bringing his name to this thread is misleading.
Let's rephrase... Berlioz's operas are irrelevant to Edward Elgar's request (which happens to be the _motto _of this thread)


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## Guest (Apr 13, 2007)

Tee hee. I was reading it *how many times* certain composers operas *have been performed* over the last 50 years!

And I would maintain that Berlioz' operas _are_ relevant to Sir Edward's request, being consistently good throughout and full of good tunes.


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## Kurkikohtaus (Oct 22, 2006)

some guy said:


> And I would maintain that Berlioz' operas _are_ relevant to Sir Edward's request, being consistently good throughout and full of good tunes.


In that case it comes down to a matter of opinion and personal taste, so I accept *some guy*'s argument and leave it up to E.E. to decide which recommendations to adhere to, if he's still pursuing this idea.


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## Frasier (Mar 10, 2007)

If you want good tunes and/or good theatre, and easy-going stuff as good as Mozart's operas, go for the comic operas of Rossini. He was as much a genius as Mozart - probably more so as a stage composer. If you want a few ideas there's the famous Barber or Seville, La Gazetta, La Scala di Seta, the Marriage Exchange etc. They're all on CD and DVD. 

Rossini is seriously overlooked, partly because in the west we were forced down the germanic music route rather than italian, partly because Rossini wrote for specific singers who were coloratura virtuosi (that put him out of reach for almost a century) - and his best works are for the stage which means expense. 

EF


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## tutto (Apr 11, 2007)

Ok,P. is like 100y old, M 200+, who was preformed in those days? also, which-whose works we don´t play today? by unknown autors..-aren´t THESE operas bad..??
(as big brothers decide, anyway) 
I don´t like = I don´t unerstand


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## zlya (Apr 9, 2007)

Hey tutto, reading too much Joyce lately? Good to see that stream of consciousness isn't dead, but perhaps for the sake of my poor thick muso brain you could try complete sentences?


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## Kurkikohtaus (Oct 22, 2006)

Hey, give the guy a break, stream of consciousness is a refreshing change here at the otherwise staid and overly literate forum.



tutto said:


> Ok,P. is like 100y old, M 200+, who was preformed in those days?


In Mozarts time and the early 19th Century, only New Music was performed. Remember that the idea of "Old" music having value began as Mendelssohn led a Bach "revival" in 1829, but new music was always in demand deep into the Romantic era.


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## luyan1985 (Dec 18, 2007)

I agree with Kurkikohtaus . La Boheme will be a good choice which includes excellent melody and fantastic aria.


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## SalieriIsInnocent (Feb 28, 2008)

Don Giovanni blew me away when i saw it.
It is a very beautiful opera. And believe me you will never get tired watching it


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## Rondo (Jul 11, 2007)

I don't know if anyone has yet mentioned it in this long thread, but _Fidelio_ is pretty good for starters.

_Audience_ starters, not really _performing_ starters.


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## BuddhaBandit (Dec 31, 2007)

I've always been a big fan of Britten's *Peter Grimes*- very impressionistic of the ocean.


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## Yagan Kiely (Feb 6, 2008)

If you want a Wagner opera that is Melodious, try Meistersingers of Tannhäuser. Strauss's Rosenkavalier, Capriccio and a few others are melodious (especially Rosen). Obvious ones are Puccini and Rossini. Also why not try Handel?


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## KenazFilan (Mar 5, 2008)

If you like Mozart, how about _Die Zauberflöte_ or _Cosi Fan Tutte_? I've seen both (in New York City Opera productions) and found both most enjoyable.


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## thalion9 (Mar 17, 2008)

If you like mythology (i.e. The Aeneid) try Purcell's Dido and Aeneas. The aria When I am Laid in Earth is quite beautiful....and it's in english.


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## Yagan Kiely (Feb 6, 2008)

Britten's Midsummer's Nights Dream is good.

Much funnier than it's counterpart.


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## Dividend (Mar 14, 2008)

As someone said: Puccini- La Boheme.

Funny, a little silly, GREAT music. Easy.


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## rich23434565 (Mar 7, 2008)

It has to be Rossini. He may not have the depth of Mozart but I'm not sure any composer wrote music with such surface brilliance. It just makes you feel good about life! Try La Cenerentola, or Il Viaggio a Riems, or La Italiana in Algeria.


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## spendork (Mar 26, 2008)

Some Great One :


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## spendork (Mar 26, 2008)




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## Methodistgirl (Apr 3, 2008)

The only opera that I can think of is the one that I was in durning high school.
That was Porgy and Bess. Even though I find some operas a bit boring .
Some opera's I like to joke about. I do like Porgy and Bess by Gershwin.
judy tooley


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## Yagan Kiely (Feb 6, 2008)

If you like Chicago, Pal Joey or Oklahoma then listen to Porgy and Bess. If you like opera, don't.

Why are you posting huge pictures instead of details????


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## Methodistgirl (Apr 3, 2008)

I sometimes have a hard time getting to the point. Ask Krummhorn I've been
on the other forum since last summer.
judy tooley


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## Chi_townPhilly (Apr 21, 2007)

Yagan Kiely said:


> If you like Chicago, Pal Joey or Oklahoma then listen to Porgy and Bess. If you like opera, don't.


*NOT* a boolean chioce. Some of us like _Chicago_, _Oklahoma_, and Grand Opera.

Funny thing is... I'm not a big fan of Porgy & Bess, but I'll harken back to my previous citation of Leonard Bernstein, who said that Gershwin was the greatest melodist since Tchaikovsky. The "big tunes" in Porgy & Bess are sufficiently big that the opus deserves more than a contemptuous dismissal.

The "picture" thing is something I attributed to an innocent slip-up.

For G-d's sake... lighten up, man!


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## Elgarian (Jul 30, 2008)

I don't think I know what a 'good opera' is in any objective sense, but if we're talking about continuous tunefulness then Puccini's _La Boheme_, _Madama Butterfly_, and _Tosca_ are packed with great tunes, as various people have commented on. There are times, though, when Puccini can be a bit too much to take, and maybe something just a shade less _intense_ might be called for.

So ... Massenet's _Manon_ is a dream of an opera, packed with great tunes (I believe Sir Thomas Beecham said he'd give all the Brandenburgs in exchange for _Manon_, and I'd gladly accept such a swap myself). Also, when I first listened to Massenet's _Cendrillon_ I had no libretto and only the briefest of synopses, but the music was full of charm from beginning to end and so I found it didn't matter much.

And if you want something entirely unstuffy, heaps of fun, and tunes that you walk around the house humming afterwards, how about Humperdinck's _Hansel and Gretel_?

Oh wait, though - how about Delibes _Lakme_, too? That's another where the tunes never stop flowing.

Pausing now to look at what just popped out and reviewing the situation - if I were to choose one, I'd go for _Manon_. Get the Angela Gheorghiu 3 CD set and you can't go wrong, or even better get the recent astoundingly fine DVD with Natalie Dessay and try not to become foolishly infatuated with her.


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