# Skewed Forum Demographics



## brotagonist (Jul 11, 2013)

I have participated in numerous internet fora over the years and, despite having a global reach, the non-anglophone participation is always scant. Why is this?

Is participation on the internet primarily an anglophone pastime?

Where are all of these people from other countries, that, statistically, are supposed to be 'on the internet'?

Do those from other linguistic backgrounds cocoon themselves into local fora, rather than participating in fora with a global reach? If so, why?

In my own case, I intentionally select fora with a global reach, rather than those aimed at only my city, region or country (unless I am wishing to discuss things that have only local significance, of course).


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## Taggart (Feb 14, 2013)

On a forum based in Denmark he asks this? 

Seriously, there are members from all over the world - India, South America, most of Europe - and I don't just mean ex-pats. There is always going to be a problem on a forum whose language is English, but I think TC does quite well.


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## brotagonist (Jul 11, 2013)

Yes, I am aware that there are a handful of participants from around the world on this Danish forum, but it still seems to be heavily skewed to USA and Britain.

With a non-English forum, there is an intended desire to exclude, to have only people from that particular culture, while a forum that chooses its language to be English implicitly makes it known that it is including everyone, no matter where they are from, so where are these people? Does North America really have the largest number of classical music fans?


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

brotagonist said:


> With a non-English forum, there is an intended desire to exclude, to have only people from that particular culture, while a forum that chooses its language to be English implicitly makes it known that it is including everyone, no matter where they are from, so where are these people? Does North America really have the largest number of classical music fans?


Not everybody speaks English. Hordes of French, Germans and Chinese (speaking of personal experience for these three), even of academic education, are uncomfortable to use English.


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## ptr (Jan 22, 2013)

I really think the language is a limiting factor, I've suggested membership to several of my friends but they often say that the language hurdle makes for a very slow starter, and most of them have very good spoken English but are very concious about writing and grammar.
Myself, I don't worry the least about being grammatically correct writing in English, I can't even write that well in my own language! :tiphat:

/ptr


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## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

ptr said:


> I really think the language is a limiting factor, I've suggested membership to several of my friends but they often say that the language hurdle makes for a very slow starter, and most of them have very good spoken English but are very concious about writing and grammar.
> Myself, I don't worry the least about being grammatically correct writing in English, I can't even write that well in my own language! :tiphat:
> 
> /ptr


That was my guess - not about your English grammar, about non-1st language reluctance. There are several members who make themselves understood using 'nonstandard' grammar - and some of those aren't Americans. TC is a pretty safe place for them (little if any harassment from other posters). I assume that if there were harassment, the Team would jump on it.

I do occasionally ask for clarification. In those cases the furriner should be honored by my attention.

:kiss: [There isn't a suitable emoticon for the sense of the lavender text. A recognizable caricature of Mark Twain would probably be too obscure.]


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## brotagonist (Jul 11, 2013)

I am surprised that people might have trouble with the English. I lived in Europe for longer periods, up to about 6 years at one go, and shorter periods, totalling about 10 years in total (approx. 8 years in Germany and 2 years in France), and my experience was that nearly everyone spoke English somewhat, if not even very well. Also, my experience has been that a lot of Indians and Chinese speak English very well indeed (often put me to shame  ), only to mention Japanese and others as an aside.


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## StlukesguildOhio (Dec 25, 2006)

I really think the language is a limiting factor, I've suggested membership to several of my friends but they often say that the language hurdle makes for a very slow starter, and most of them have very good spoken English but are very concious about writing and grammar.

Yes... and there have been those individuals who have been known to attention to a non-native English-speaking individual's spelling, grammar, etc... during any dispute. Yes, it happens. On the literature site that I frequent I have witnessed a Brazilian member for whom English is his third language taken to task for his linguistic mistakes... in spite of the well-informed and insightful nature of his posts.


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## spokanedaniel (Dec 23, 2014)

brotagonist said:


> Yes, I am aware that there are a handful of participants from around the world on this Danish forum, but it still seems to be heavily skewed to USA and Britain.
> 
> With a non-English forum, there is an intended desire to exclude, to have only people from that particular culture, while a forum that chooses its language to be English implicitly makes it known that it is including everyone, no matter where they are from, so where are these people? Does North America really have the largest number of classical music fans?


I think it's natural for people to be drawn more to forums that use their native language. And obviously, you can't very well participate if you don't speak the language of the board. Sure, English is pretty widespread, but I take it for granted that an English-language forum would be dominated by people from English-speaking countries.

A German-language forum (for example) no more excludes people of other cultures than does an English-language one. Both exclude people who don't speak the language, and discourage people who are not comfortable writing it.

I imagine there are classical music forums in all cultures that have internet access, and that most classical music fans who are interested in forums gravitate to those of their own country or culture. Note that plenty of people have no interest in discussion boards at all.


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## SiegendesLicht (Mar 4, 2012)

brotagonist said:


> I have participated in numerous internet fora over the years and, despite having a global reach, the non-anglophone participation is always scant. Why is this?
> 
> Is participation on the internet primarily an anglophone pastime?.


No, and we have more than just a "handful" of Europeans here. It's just that many members do not mention their residence in their profiles. Half of the posters in this very thread are European. However, I think one factor may be that a greater percentage of Europeans and Americans have both access to internet and an interest in classical music than other nations.



brotagonist said:


> Where are all of these people from other countries, that, statistically, are supposed to be 'on the internet'?
> 
> Do those from other linguistic backgrounds cocoon themselves into local fora, rather than participating in fora with a global reach? If so, why?


I know Germans and Russians have their own classical forums, probably other nations too. And of course they do not discuss only Russian or only German music there (though I remember seeing a thread titled "why German music is the best?" on one of them  ) But I would not call it cocooning. Most people find it comfortable discussing complicated topics like classical music in their native language.



> With a non-English forum, there is an intended desire to exclude, to have only people from that particular culture


I find this notion potently absurd. So, every time you speak any other language than English you have an "intended desire to exclude" the rest of mankind who do not speak that language? Maybe we should cancel all other languages and shut down all non-English forums so that nobody feels excluded?


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## spokanedaniel (Dec 23, 2014)

SiegendesLicht said:


> ... I think one factor may be that a greater percentage of Europeans and Americans have [...] an interest in classical music than other nations.


This is a very good point. What we call classical music is a European cultural phenomenon. While there are people all over the world who are interested in it, and sometimes great performers of it, interest in European music is naturally higher in countries that share European culture.


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## Blancrocher (Jul 6, 2013)

brotagonist said:


> I am surprised that people might have trouble with the English. I lived in Europe for longer periods, up to about 6 years at one go, and shorter periods, totalling about 10 years in total (approx. 8 years in Germany and 2 years in France), and my experience was that nearly everyone spoke English somewhat, if not even very well. Also, my experience has been that a lot of Indians and Chinese speak English very well indeed (often put me to shame  ), only to mention Japanese and others as an aside.


I intermittently follow some foreign-language classical music forums, mostly looking for album recommendations (it can be useful to see what's selling on different nations' cd retail sites, I've found), but I don't really participate. Even if one speaks the language, one might not feel comfortable sifting shades of nuance, wordplay, trolling, and so forth. Perhaps the lurkers on our forum are more international than its membership. Finally, I'd add that our active membership is probably not large enough to make any inferences about demographics of musical taste.

In any case, if anyone who may not be confident about their English but feels they'd enjoy participating is reading this--I say jump right in! We won't bite!


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## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

SiegendesLicht said:


> [...]
> I find this notion *potently* absurd. So, every time you speak any other language than English you have an "intended desire to exclude" the rest of mankind who do not speak that language? Maybe we should cancel all other languages and shut down all non-English forums so that nobody feels excluded?


"Potently"! I like it. The quoted notion does have both potential and potency. Being mired in a morass of conventions, I read it as 'patently' the first time through.

[You expected a grammarian quibble there, didn't you SL? C'mon, don't deny it...]


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## Krummhorn (Feb 18, 2007)

brotagonist said:


> Yes, I am aware that there are a handful of participants from around the world on this Danish forum, but it still seems to be heavily skewed to USA and Britain . . .


I would wager that we have far more than a "handful" of members outside of the USA and Britain ... my guess would be at least 35% or higher ... but there is no way for us to extrapolate that information out of our database.


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## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

Perhaps one fine day anyone can post in the language (and script) they feel comfortable with and the softwear will auto-translate. I suspect all current TC members will be long dead by then, sadly...


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## Taggart (Feb 14, 2013)

elgars ghost said:


> Perhaps one fine day anyone can post in the language (and script) they feel comfortable with and the softwear will auto-translate. I suspect all current TC members will be long dead by then, sadly...


Question is - will it make sense? Google does that at the minute but.........


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## spokanedaniel (Dec 23, 2014)

elgars ghost said:


> Perhaps one fine day anyone can post in the language (and script) they feel comfortable with and the softwear will auto-translate. I suspect all current TC members will be long dead by then, sadly...


Computer translations are pretty dismal. In spite of dystopian movies about computers taking over the world, I don't think computers are ever going to achieve the ability to comprehend complex passages of natural language. Like teaching a dog to obey spoken commands, you can program a computer to respond to spoken words or phrases, but I don't think either the dog or the computer is ever going to comprehend the meaning of "Shall I compare thee to a summer's day?" You can make either of them perform a set action upon hearing that phrase, but not understand what it means. And while the dog actually possesses real intelligence, the computer doesn't even have that.


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## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

Taggart said:


> Question is - will it make sense? Google does that at the minute but.........


I'm guessing the technology of auto-translate services such as Google is still pretty much in its early stages of development, hence the idiosyncrasies - maybe 50 years from now it will be at least tolerably accurate. Who knows - maybe 150 years from now even speech can be auto-translated by something like a microchip implant?


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## Headphone Hermit (Jan 8, 2014)

Participation might be geographically limited because of cultural differences

A few years ago, I visited a country for a study visit. My two British colleagues and our five hosts were chattting over tea and coffee and our conversation turned to hobbies. Our hosts looked bemused when we asked them what their hobbies were and they all replied "Hobbies? Our hobbies are our families."

Yes, they watched sport on TV, yes they chatted to their friends at a cafe .... but the type of intense interest that seems reasonably common in many western cultures seemed an odd idea to them


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## Sloe (May 9, 2014)

Taggart said:


> Question is - will it make sense? Google does that at the minute but.........


Well, what do you think? I must say that English is a little weird with translation software. I think it's a pretty good spread in terms of where people are coming from. That there is an overrepresentation of users from the English-speaking countries is not remarkable when it is obviously easier to write in English when it is your native language. I also think that among those who are not native English speakers, I think it is an over-representation of those who speak the language not spoken by so many because of the absence of discussion on their own languages.


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## Albert7 (Nov 16, 2014)

Our TinyChat TC group has active members from Turkey and India in addition to the US and Canada so things are pretty varied around here.


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## spokanedaniel (Dec 23, 2014)

elgars ghost said:


> I'm guessing the technology of auto-translate services such as Google is still pretty much in its early stages of development, hence the idiosyncrasies - maybe 50 years from now it will be at least tolerably accurate. Who knows - maybe 150 years from now even speech can be auto-translated by something like a microchip implant?


As I look at predictions concerning technology, none of those made when I was younger have come to pass. And none of the really surprising developments had been predicted. They predicted flying cars and floating houses and energy too cheap to meter and robots to do all our household work and that automation would give rise to a 15-hour work week and everyone having abundant leisure time.

Curiously, though a household robot would seem to require very small computers, the miniaturization of computers was never predicted. They imagined intelligent robots, but never thought of what that would require. The telecommunications revolution was not predicted.

Nowadays, artificial intelligence is the big item on the future list. I don't believe it's going to happen, but the longer we live the more marvels we will see that we never dreamed of. As far an an implantable translation chip, we're more likely to discover the Babelfish. There are lots of cool things they can implant in us now. Pacemakers and heart valves and insulin pumps and artificial joints. I have artificial lenses in my eyes. (A very creepy but painless procedure necessitated by cataracts.)

There's just no substitute for taking the time to actually learn a foreign language. It takes a child 6 or 7 years to become fluent in its native language. An adult can accomplish the same thing in about the same length of time with immersion in a foreign culture, all except for the accent, which requires a special kind of training. Most people don't have that much free time, so they're more comfortable on a chat board in their native language.


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## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

spokanedaniel said:


> As I look at predictions concerning technology, none of those made when I was younger have come to pass. And none of the really surprising developments had been predicted. They predicted flying cars and floating houses and energy too cheap to meter and robots to do all our household work and that automation would give rise to a 15-hour work week and everyone having abundant leisure time.
> 
> Curiously, though a household robot would seem to require very small computers, the miniaturization of computers was never predicted. They imagined intelligent robots, but never thought of what that would require. The telecommunications revolution was not predicted.
> 
> ...


I daresay, but I wasn't being_ totally _serious.


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## spokanedaniel (Dec 23, 2014)

Glad to hear it.


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## Posie (Aug 18, 2013)

The demographics are partly a matter of chance. There are millions of people in the world who may have an intense interest in a particular thing, but haven't thought to search for an internet group devoted to it.

Considering that the U.S. is a western country and the third most populous country, I'm not surprised that there are so many of us on a forum devoted to western music.


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## Headphone Hermit (Jan 8, 2014)

albertfallickwang said:


> Our TinyChat TC group has active members from Turkey and India in addition to the US and Canada so things are pretty varied around here.


... but do they have families?


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## Figleaf (Jun 10, 2014)

Headphone Hermit said:


> ... but do they have families?


Reminds me of the story my Mum tells, of how my Dad gave away his chess set when he got married- as if hobbies were no longer possible after one has tied the knot!

Given the number of members who are young and unmarried or else older and retired, there may be something in your family theory.


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## science (Oct 14, 2010)

Koreans are very enthusiastic "netizens" - you can't do anything in Korea until you see what the internet has to say about it, and then nothing is real until someone puts at least twelve photographs of it on their blog - but almost none of them are going to use this site. I'd bet a lot of Koreans have read this site over the years without daring to expose their English to our ridicule. But they have Korean sites.


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## Perotin (May 29, 2012)

I come from Europe and english is not my native tongue. So why do I participate in this forum? Probably because I don't realize, how bad my english is! :lol: Btw, no one has yet ridiculed me for my grammar and spelling mistakes!


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## Headphone Hermit (Jan 8, 2014)

^^^ nothing here to ridicule! You write better english than many of the native speakers on here :tiphat:


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## clavichorder (May 2, 2011)

We should all start learning Esperanto and using it here on talkclassical.


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## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

clavichorder said:


> We should all start learning Esperanto and using it here on talkclassical.


There's an example of botchment for you.

I suggest an alternative: Put the stamp of respectability on Ebonics for basic, 'everyday' communication. Create a series of appendices for the jargon-laden subjects, one of them for music.


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## clavichorder (May 2, 2011)

Ukko said:


> There's an example of botchment for you.
> 
> I suggest an alternative: Put the stamp of respectability on Ebonics for basic, 'everyday' communication. Create a series of appendices for the jargon-laden subjects, one of them for music.


I actually like that idea!


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## spokanedaniel (Dec 23, 2014)

Perotin said:


> I come from Europe and english is not my native tongue. So why do I participate in this forum? Probably because I don't realize, how bad my english is! :lol: Btw, no one has yet ridiculed me for my grammar and spelling mistakes!


When I was studying Spanish I noticed that most of the students were reluctant to speak because they were afraid of making mistakes. When my mother, who never became as fluent as I, went to Latin America, she would take so much time planning a "correct" sentence that people would assume she was not going to say anything, and they would speak, so she never got a chance to say what she wanted.

I just jumped in and talked, averaging probably half a dozen grammatical mistakes in every sentence. People understood me and never made fun of me. My first Spanish teacher stressed that language is about communication, not perfection. You have to be willing to make mistakes if you are to learn.

But the majority of people are afraid of embarrassing themselves, so they don't try, and as a result they don't improve.

European and Asian languages are so vastly different, that it's a gap that's much harder to bridge. So I'm not surprised if Asian classical music fans are under-represented in an English-language forum.



clavichorder said:


> We should all start learning Esperanto and using it here on talkclassical.


The inventors of Esperanto had high hopes for it. It was logical, there were no irregular forms, spelling was phonetic. But few people will take the time to learn a new language that's not actually spoken anywhere. And natural languages just are not like that, which was part of the point, but may have contributed to its failure to catch on. Natural languages have nuance and subtlety. I can only think of one artificial language that's had success. Kiswahili (a.k.a. Swahili) was invented by Arab traders for use in Africa where the multitude of tribal languages made commerce difficult. When I visited Kenya, all the locals spoke at least three languages: English (the official language, imposed by the Brits), Kiswahili, which they mostly used with each other, and their individual tribal language which they could only use within their tribe.

It would not surprise me to learn that there is a discussion board in Esperanto. It would surprise me if very many people use it.


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## SiegendesLicht (Mar 4, 2012)

Ukko said:


> There's an example of botchment for you.
> 
> I suggest an alternative: Put the stamp of respectability on Ebonics for basic, 'everyday' communication. Create a series of appendices for the jargon-laden subjects, one of them for music.


I suggest that Ebonics stay on the rap forums. I am sure there are plenty.


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## clavichorder (May 2, 2011)

SiegendesLicht said:


> I suggest that Ebonics stay on the rap forums. I am sure there are plenty.


The Ebonics that Ukko is acquainted with is probably a little different from the dialect spoken among youth of today who are up to date with rap trends. Old school Ebonics is distinct, yet doesn't involve as much swearing or misogynistic phrases intended for common usage. I think "Man" used to be more common than the N word with the a ending, for addressing one's familiars. Then man in that usage bled into mainstream culture. The only thing that evolves as quickly as Ebonics is internet jargon, perhaps, though I suppose there is a more mainstream trending speak, and then the true and more consistent version. When I was in Chicago on the train, I heard two men speaking 'classic Ebonics' to each other on the bus and I really had to think about what they were saying to decipher.


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## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

clavichorder said:


> The Ebonics that Ukko is acquainted with is probably a little different from the dialect spoken among youth of today who are up to date with rap trends. Old school Ebonics is distinct, yet doesn't involve as much swearing or misogynistic phrases intended for common usage. I think "Man" used to be more common than the N word with the a ending, for addressing one's familiars. Then man in that usage bled into mainstream culture. The only thing that evolves as quickly as Ebonics is internet jargon, perhaps, though I suppose there is a more mainstream trending speak, and then the true and more consistent version. * When I was in Chicago on the train, I heard two men speaking 'classic Ebonics' to each other on the bus and I really had to think about what they were saying to decipher.*


Most of that difficulty is in pronunciation. You would have little difficulty with Seattle Ebonics. Ebonics is a paring out of forms unnecessary for everyday information transmission. It is more than a patois now, though I gather it still lacks the ability to handle specialized data that developed in Swahili and 'trade' Farsi'.


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## Headphone Hermit (Jan 8, 2014)

Ukko said:


> I suggest an alternative: Put the stamp of respectability on *Ebonics* for basic, 'everyday' communication.


well, it woud lose me completely - I had never heard of _ebonics_ and had to look it up


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## clavichorder (May 2, 2011)

Ukko said:


> Most of that difficulty is in pronunciation. You would have little difficulty with Seattle Ebonics. Ebonics is a paring out of forms unnecessary for everyday information transmission. It is more than a patois now, though I gather it still lacks the ability to handle specialized data that developed in Swahili and 'trade' Farsi'.


You know, I read an article that said everyday language was in an evolutionary process of simplification. In a few hundred years, a lot of languages will have disappeared, and most will likely know a simple form of English. Perhaps this is the paring out of forms that you speak of with Ebonics. Artfully complex language will inevitably continue to exist, for certain circles and those who like to study older literature and writings.


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## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

clavichorder said:


> You know, I read an article that said everyday language was in an evolutionary process of simplification. In a few hundred years, a lot of languages will have disappeared, and most will likely know a simple form of English. Perhaps this is the paring out of forms that you speak of with Ebonics. Artfully complex language will inevitably continue to exist, for certain circles and those who like to study older literature and writings.


That "artfully complex language" is necessary for conveying 'shades' of meaning. For many of us, that facility is what makes 'idle' conversation enjoyable. A thousand word vocabulary with simplified verb tenses is utilitarian, but it stifles the music of the spheres.


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## spokanedaniel (Dec 23, 2014)

clavichorder said:


> ... When I was in Chicago on the train, I heard two men speaking 'classic Ebonics' to each other on the bus and I really had to think about what they were saying to decipher.


I knew a Jamaican. When he spoke with his compatriots I couldn't understand a word. I asked him what language that was, and his reply was "Broken-down English." I suppose if you strip enough letters from the words, they become unrecognizable. Add in some vocabulary not in use in the language of origin and for practical purposes you have a distinct language.


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## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

So does Ebonics include, or stem from, the 'jive' that was spoken by African-Americans in the 70s?


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## Ingélou (Feb 10, 2013)

For historic reasons, English is a world language with a major branch - Indian English - established in Asia. There are many other varieties, including pidgins & creoles. Learning English is a useful marketable skill the world over. People have lots of learning material for English from songs and films. And for all its flaws, it is a wonderfully nuanced language, with many synonyms from different language sources, each with their own shades and flavours. 

So why not just stick to English but provide an encouraging atmosphere?


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## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

elgars ghost said:


> So does Ebonics include, or stem from, the 'jive' that was spoken by African-Americans in the 70s?


Basically, Ebonics is a rather small English vocabulary, with the indefinite articles removed, tenses simplified, and many of the remaining words 'suffering' elisions - some of them fairly drastic. The same process occurs in borrowed and 'invasive' languages all over the world. It's been awhile since I read about it, but _just maybe_ the sequence of development is pidgin > patois > creole. Also just maybe, a patois mixes in words from the 'native' language; if so, Ebonics is not a patois.

The info is out there, considerably more authoritative than my geezerly memory can produce.

Jive was, and probably is, a 'hip' slang. How much of it is in common Ebonics I dunno.

Ingelou, I introduced the subject of 'Ebonics' specifically as an alternative to subjecting folks not fluent in English to 'shades and flavors'. It would be employed as a sort of 'trade language'. You also have my blessing if you wish to consider the suggestion as 'less than deadly serious'.


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## Taggart (Feb 14, 2013)

See this for more on Ebonics.


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## Figleaf (Jun 10, 2014)

I have seen some young people on Facebook using what seems to be some kind of phonetically spelled patois combined with text speak. I hope it doesn't catch on here...


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## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

Figleaf said:


> I have seen some young people on Facebook using what seems to be some kind of phonetically spelled patois combined with text speak. I hope it doesn't catch on here...


Hah! UN ME BOT!


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