# too popular, can't be good - or, sins of your teenage years



## science (Oct 14, 2010)

I'm thinking of the works that suffer among the highbrow because they're too popular among the hoi polloi. 

- Vivaldi's Four Seasons
- Tchaikovsky's 1812 Overture 
- Grieg's Peer Gynt Suite
- Beethoven's Moonlight Sonata 
- Barber's Adagio for Strings 
- Ravel's Bolero 
- Strauss' Radetsky March 
- Strauss' Blue Danube
- Pachelbel's Canon 
- Albinoni's Adagio (rev. Giazotto) 
- Mozart's A Little Night Music

What else is there?


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## science (Oct 14, 2010)

Perhaps

- Elgar's Pomp & Circumstance
- Rossini's Overture to William Tell 
- almost anything by Philip Glass 
- almost anything by Chopin

There could be a category of things that are just too easy to like, and must be degraded for that: 

- Grieg's Lyric Pieces
- Mendelssohn's Songs Without Words
- Bruch's Violin Concerto #1
- Beethoven's Fur Elise


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

Wagner's Ride of the Valkyries. Thankfully it takes on a new life of awesomeness when you hear it in the context of Die Walküre.


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## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

Bach's Air on the G string
Tchaikovsky's Nutcracker Suite
Prokofieff's March from Love for three Oranges
Rimsky's Scheherazade

and there must be more to go.


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## science (Oct 14, 2010)

That's perfect. Thank you!


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## Dodecaplex (Oct 14, 2011)

Add to that Bach's Jesu Joy of Man's Desiring, Wagner's Ride of the Valkyries, and Chopin's Fantasie Impromptu.

Of course, what would a teenager like myself know other than committing the opposite of the ad populum fallacy?


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## Crudblud (Dec 29, 2011)

Classical music in general. I listened to it along with trad. jazz and bebop as a kid, then for whatever reason I stopped. It was only after AH WAS SAAAAAAVED BAH FRANK ZAPPAAAAAHHHH (and that's a slightly complicated story) that I started listening to modern classical music around 2007. Since around 2008 I've been working my way backwards to the stuff I used to listen to, only to find that I don't enjoy it so much anymore, Mozart especially.


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## science (Oct 14, 2010)

Dukas: Sorcerer's Apprentice
Orff: Carmina Burana

Maybe also Holst's The Planets


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## Olias (Nov 18, 2010)

The slow movement of Mozart's Piano Concerto 21. The horribly nicknamed "Elvira Madigan".


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## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

science said:


> [...]
> Maybe also Holst's The Planets


Not all of it. The Mars movement though.


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## science (Oct 14, 2010)

Oh, this is all perfect. 

I think we could go by performer as well. Andrei Rieu got a lot of attention recently. Josh Groban or Sarah Brightman could be other examples. Can't like anything by them!


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

Andrea Bocelli, the man every "real" opera lover must hate.


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## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

So you leave it to me to offer Lang Lang?


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

Hilltroll72 said:


> So you leave it to me to offer Lang Lang?


No, Lang Lang is a genuine abortion.


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## science (Oct 14, 2010)

Yes, Lang Lang. Thank you!


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

science said:


> That's perfect. Thank you!





science said:


> Oh, this is all perfect.





science said:


> Yes, Lang Lang. Thank you!


Strange fetish you have here.


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## science (Oct 14, 2010)

Feed me Couchie. Analyzing my psychoses is too easy a task to justify any investment of your time.


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## Crudblud (Dec 29, 2011)

Maybe it's just me, but I've never really had any problems with Lang Lang. Then again, I've only listened to one disc where he plays a few popular pieces. If he's really as bad as many people have told me, he may just be a necessary evil to keep the industry afloat, along with André Rieu and hacks like Hans Zimmer.

Yes, I just went there.


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## science (Oct 14, 2010)

Oh, Hans Zimmer. That is what I was looking for. 

It's a little too modern to really get me going, but his heart is in the right place. It's hard to hold it against a guy that he wasn't born before 1880, but I can do it.


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## Dodecaplex (Oct 14, 2011)

To put a serious spin on this thread, I have found that Mr. Zimmer has actually written a good number of beautiful works.






Suck on that, Hans Zimmer haters!


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## Crudblud (Dec 29, 2011)

Yeah, Zimmer's not as bad as I made him out to be in that last post, the real evil for me is Clint Mansell.


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## science (Oct 14, 2010)

I don't know if that's sufficiently lowbrow man. Just go right for John Williams. No more beating around the bush.


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## bigshot (Nov 22, 2011)

science said:


> I'm thinking of the works that suffer among the highbrow because they're too popular among the hoi polloi.
> 
> - Vivaldi's Four Seasons
> - Tchaikovsky's 1812 Overture
> ...


I like all of those except Bolero


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## science (Oct 14, 2010)

bigshot said:


> I like all of those except Bolero


Don't sell yourself short. With greater effort, you will be able not to like any of them.


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

Couchie said:


> Andrea Bocelli, the man every "real" opera lover must hate.


Quite right though hate is a bit strong--laugh at would be better.


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## science (Oct 14, 2010)

moody said:


> Quite right though hate is a bit strong--laugh at would be better.


A bon mot dear to my heart. I applaud you good sir.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

Funny what someone said about "real" opera lovers. It's the old us versus them attitude. Utter highbrow rubbish, imo. Some people say the same thing about the Three Tenors concerts after the world cups in Rome, Paris, Los Angeles. Yet these really broke down the barriers for many people with opera. If anything it's Germanic maidens screaming and throwing themselves into the flames - it ain't all over till the fat lady sings - that stereotype has worked to turn people off opera big time. The pretension, irrelvance, etc.

Anyway, I love classical crossover. I also like avant garde and a lot of things in between. Andre Rieu is a darned good arranger, imo. Not all of his arrangements appeal to me, but most of them do. That's life, we judge a musician on his best work. Eg. some people can't stand Mahler for his long-windedness, but they adore his songs. So it's subjective...


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

bigshot said:


> I like all of those except Bolero


Nobody likes bolero.


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## science (Oct 14, 2010)

Sid James said:


> Funny what someone said about "real" opera lovers. It's the old us versus them attitude. Utter highbrow rubbish, imo. Some people say the same thing about the Three Tenors concerts after the world cups in Rome, Paris, Los Angeles. Yet these really broke down the barriers for many people with opera. If anything it's Germanic maidens screaming and throwing themselves into the flames - it ain't all over till the fat lady sings - that stereotype has worked to turn people off opera big time. The pretension, irrelvance, etc.
> 
> Anyway, I love classical crossover. I also like avant garde and a lot of things in between. Andre Rieu is a darned good arranger, imo. Not all of his arrangements appeal to me, but most of them do. That's life, we judge a musician on his best work. Eg. some people can't stand Mahler for his long-windedness, but they adore his songs. So it's subjective...


Watch yourself Mr. James. Dogmas are under construction here.


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> Nobody likes bolero.


At least one person (yours truly) likes the bolero. Not Ravel's best work, but still quite enjoyable.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

science said:


> Watch yourself Mr. James. Dogmas are under construction here.


Okay, I will get on topic.

In my youth, some things were listened to by my parents, and many of those were "pops" or at least popular classics, eg. -

Mozart - Eine kleine nachtmusik; Divertimenti (Salzburg Symphonies for strings)

J.S. Bach - Brandenburg Concertos; Toccata and Fugue in D minor (organ)

Beethoven - quite a few things of his

Tchaikovsky - ditto

Wagner - Die Meistersinger (prelude), & other things of the sort

Vivaldi - the "usual suspect" there

Grieg - Peer Gynt

Liszt - Les Preludes, etc.



Art Rock said:


> At least one person (yours truly) likes the bolero. Not Ravel's best work, but still quite enjoyable.


I like it as well but hardly listen to it. Or Ravel generally. Easy to do overkill with him. I think my favourite works of his are those involving piano...


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## science (Oct 14, 2010)

That was much better. 

I believe it would be ok to enjoy Beethoven's string quartets and the late piano sonatas, as long as you don't get too into them. 

Not too long ago one could enjoy the 7th symphony without appearing a fool, but sadly those days are gone. The 1st, 2nd, 4th and 8th are the only safe ground anymore.


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

Sid James said:


> If anything it's Germanic maidens screaming and throwing themselves into the flames - it ain't all over till the fat lady sings - that stereotype has worked to turn people off opera big time. The pretension, irrelvance, etc.


Pretentiousness is driving a BMW, wearing a Rolex, or carrying a Louis Vuitton purse. Yet these are things many people aspire for. Wagner is awesome. People who are turned off opera because they fear being seen as "pretentious" don't deserve it.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

& another sin of my youth to add is Chopin's famous piano works, the raindrop prelude, the revolutionary etude, heroic polonaise, all that stuff.

...But clearly anything by Scriabin is superior, as nobody "out there in the real world" knows him  ...


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

Beethoven - Piano concerto no. 5
Mozart - Clarinet concerto (second mvt)
Cage -4'33"


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## science (Oct 14, 2010)

Couchie said:


> Pretentiousness is driving a BMW, wearing a Rolex, or carrying a Louis Vuitton purse. Yet these are things many people aspire for. Wagner is awesome. People who are turned off opera because they fear being seen as "pretentious" don't deserve it.


Ordinary Wagner is insufficient: Give me a Siegfried in a Star Trek costume, or don't give me no Siegfried at all.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

Couchie said:


> ...People who are turned off opera because they fear being seen as "pretentious" don't deserve it.


What I'm saying is that Wagner is not typical of opera. Eg. the traditional "numbers" operas of the 19th century. His are through flowing things, eg. the _Liebestod_ takes like what, half an hour at least. So of course people are generally receptive to an aria like from _Carmen, Turandot, The Barber of Seville_, etc. "Short and sweet" as they say.

With Wagner's fat lady finale stereotype, people get the wrong ideas about opera, eg. it's long-winded.

& for many - probably me included - Tatiana's Letter scene from Tchaikovsky's _Eugene Onegin _is a strech in the context of a recital (about 15 mins.). A former acquaintance who was in the opera industry agreed, for most people it's basically boring. Then can you imagine Wagner? Now that's what I'm saying, people have their limits in the general scheme of things...


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

^^ Richard Gill once told me about an opera someone had written for him to look at.



> It was about Mary MacKillop. The miracle happened on the last page and the first 90 minutes were just a bunch of nuns singing.


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

science said:


> Ordinary Wagner is insufficient: Give me a Siegfried in a Star Trek costume, or don't give me no Siegfried at all.


I'd say Star Trek versions of Wagner are now more "ordinary" than traditional ones, actually.


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## science (Oct 14, 2010)

Ah, I'm not sure which I should look down on, then. This kind of thing is always uncomfortable.


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## Crudblud (Dec 29, 2011)

There's a major discrepancy between Wagner and Bayreuth Wagner. There's a Ring that was at one time broadcasted on Sky Arts 2 fairly regularly where Wotan had a moving mechanical platform that he used to intimidate Mime or something. I don't really know. 

Also Siegfried had muscle moobs.

Compare this with the Met version conducted by Levine with Siegfried Jerusalem and James Morris which has really good and traditional looking sets and what have you.


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## jhar26 (Jul 6, 2008)

science said:


> I'm thinking of the works that suffer among the highbrow because they're too popular among the hoi polloi.
> 
> - Vivaldi's Four Seasons
> - Tchaikovsky's 1812 Overture
> ...


Classical music fans are hard to figure out, aren't they? :lol: On the one hand we regularly have threads about what should or could be done to make classical music more popular and how dumb the general public is for not getting it. On the other hand the pieces that actually are popular with anyone other than the happy few are regularly ridiculed or described as "overrated." But of course there's nothing wrong with the music. If the Four Seasons was an obscure piece from, say, Tartini the same people would argue that it's a scandulously underrated masterpiece.


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## jhar26 (Jul 6, 2008)

Sid James said:


> Funny what someone said about "real" opera lovers. It's the old us versus them attitude. Utter highbrow rubbish, imo.


Depends. The blame isn't exlusively on the 'real' opera lovers. If people would argue that for example Katherine Jenkins is a great crossover singer few opera lovers would object. But in the media she's often described as "the world's greatest or most successfull operatic soprano", and well, she isn't. She's a microphone singer who to my knowledge has never even sung a role in a opera house. That doesn't mean that she isn't good at what she does, but what she does doesn't make her a great opera singer, or even just a opera singer.


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

^ What I can't stand is when people who do not know proper classical music call all of those crossover artists "classical musicians."


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> Nobody likes bolero.


Like it or not it is by far the most popular thing he wrote---do try to avoid the jolly old sweeping statements.


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

jhar26 said:


> Depends. The blame isn't exlusively on the 'real' opera lovers. If people would argue that for example Katherine Jenkins is a great crossover singer few opera lovers would object. But in the media she's often described as "the world's greatest or most successfull operatic soprano", and well, she isn't. She's a microphone singer who to my knowledge has never even sung a role in a opera house. That doesn't mean that she isn't good at what she does, but what she does doesn't make her a great opera singer, or even just a opera singer.


Not only that but she's a mezzo who makes hooting noises and she's certainly not great --just annoying, but it's the power of the marketing men. Not to mention Britain's greatest diva , the loud and brash Lesley Garrett her of no top and no bottom==is that unchivalrous ?


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

Couchie said:


> Pretentiousness is driving a BMW, wearing a Rolex, or carrying a Louis Vuitton purse. Yet these are things many people aspire for. Wagner is awesome. People who are turned off opera because they fear being seen as "pretentious" don't deserve it.


No that's not pretentiousness that's being well off, I'll bet you're just jealous.


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## An Die Freude (Apr 23, 2011)

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> ^ What I can't stand is when people who do not know proper classical music call all of those crossover artists "classical musicians."


Really? What really gets me annoyed is when people in my class slag me off for only listening to "opera" even though I only have one opera in my collection. I try to explain to them that opera is classical, but not all classical is opera, and it goes in one ear and out the other.


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## jhar26 (Jul 6, 2008)

An Die Freude said:


> Really? What really gets me annoyed is when people in my class slag me off for only listening to "opera" even though I only have one opera in my collection. I try to explain to them that opera is classical, but not all classical is opera, and it goes in one ear and out the other.


I used to have the perfect answer. When someone 'criticized' me for liking Abba or Frank Sinatra and they said they had just bought a Led Zeppelin or Stones album I used to say, "Well, I have every Led Zeppelin, Stones, Beatles, Dylan, Janis Joplin, Hendrix, Pink Floyd and Joni Mitchell album there is. So, not only do I love more tyes of music than you do, I even love the stuff you love more than you do!" :devil:


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## science (Oct 14, 2010)

Oh man, in high school I just sat in the back of the room with a guy who was always high and doodled cats on the desks for some reason, and an uber-tall girl who read Atlas Shrugged about once a month. It was a don't ask don't tell situation musically.


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## Oskaar (Mar 17, 2011)

Mozart-eine kleine nactmusic
Grieg-the hall of the mountain king
Sibelius- Valse triste
Scubert- Die forelle..

I like them all! But they should suit in this thread.

Another one is Montis Chardas


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

moody said:


> No that's not pretentiousness that's being well off, I'll bet you're just jealous.


Right, a car 4x more expensive than a Toyota and less reliable, a $5000 watch that keeps worse time than a $10 quartz, and a $1000 canvas bag sewn together with scraps of leather so easy to duplicate LVMH has to spend millions per year to seek out and shut down imitators (and check out LVMH's astronomical profit margins). All things which rely on brand image over real substance, if that's not the very definition of pretentiousness I don't know what is.

Anyways, you're just proving my point about society that desires the above shameless display of materialistic status symbols, but finds Wagnerian opera "pretentious". The problem isn't with Wagner, it's with society.


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## science (Oct 14, 2010)

Were I filthy rich, I would easy spend twenty grand getting dressed every day. Style over substance is my thayng, and I'm southern so I'm able to say it like "stall ohva substayances mah thayng." 

Come to think of it, pretentious is where it's at!


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## Lenfer (Aug 15, 2011)

I was going to start a similar thread about "pop" classical culture (I might not bother now). I do feel there is a popular culture among some people. If you look at the top selling classical CDs on *Amazon* and other retailers most of it's s ** t.

I'd be interested to hear your opinions as to why this happens with people. Regarding *Lang Lang* I don't like him but it's not becuase he is popular, I didn't know how popular he was until I started buying CDs. He's just so average I don't think his playing is any better than my own and I certainly know friends of mine I'd regard as better pianists.

To top that all off I've seen interviews of his on the internet he's quite creepy. 

I also agree there are works that "serious" classical listeners may feel are a bit beneath them. I try to avoid getting into this mind set though. I saw "*1812*" at the proms a few years ago and it was really good, then again I do have a soft spot for *Tchaikovsky*. :lol:


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## Oskaar (Mar 17, 2011)

I shall be careful judging peoples taste in music, only stating what I like or not. Ther is a big following in Norway of sweedish dancebands, wich I hate, but seeing the joy and happiness of these people when they join together...Then I see how much it meens to people. This culture is also big among people struggeling with their lifes...it comes like an oasis in their gray life.
It is the same with half pornographic kiosk litterature.

And when it comes to classical music! Let us be glad that there are made some pieces that appeal to people that otherwice would not listen to classical music. They may also be dooropeners to the rest..


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## Lenfer (Aug 15, 2011)

Couchie said:


> Right, a car 4x more expensive than a Toyota and less reliable, a $5000 watch that keeps worse time than a $10 quartz, and a $1000 canvas bag sewn together with scraps of leather so easy to duplicate LVMH has to spend millions per year to seek out and shut down imitators (and check out LVMH's astronomical profit margins). All things which rely on brand image over real substance, if that's not the very definition of pretentiousness I don't know what is.
> 
> Anyways, you're just proving my point about society that desires the above shameless display of materialistic status symbols, but finds Wagnerian opera "pretentious". The problem isn't with Wagner, it's with society.


Some but not all couture clothing and accessories are still made in *Paris* in fact it's a requirement to have a small artisan workforce in *Paris* in order to qalufiy as haute couture. Some things are still made in *Italy* and *Britain* and these items are of a much higher quality. Of course they cost more to make and are sold at a higher cost but *LV* or any other fashion house don't make a great deal of money from these items. They make their money from the cheaper things they can sell to the mass market (which you rightly said are sold with large profit margins).

I bought my *Boyfriend* a *Patek Philippe* for *Christmas* I don't think there is anything shallow or or materialistic about it. He will have that watch until the day he dies and it can go to our children. Just like my *Great Grandfathers* watch is now worn by my *Father*.

Yes some people are all about designer names but if you want something speical that will last you need to invest your money and buy something that is going to cost more. Not everyone can offord it but that's not to say the people who can are pretentious.


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## Huilunsoittaja (Apr 6, 2010)

BEETHOVEN - THE 9 SYMPHONIES

I'm so biased against them now because I've heard them way too much because their way too popular. I'm sick of them, and I don't know if I'll ever get over it. I was actually listening to the 2nd symphony today, and thought to myself, "huh, this is actually better" because it's not overplayed and so it's fresher to me.

As a musician, playing a piece of music usually overcomes that dread/repulsion of works I know are overplayed or really obscure. That has happened with the 1812 Overture actually, playing it is far more stimulating than just listening to it. But that hasn't happened with Beethoven for me, with for ex. the 3rd symphony, playing it hasn't helped at all.


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## Klavierspieler (Jul 16, 2011)

Mozart - Final movement of K. 331
Mozart - First movement of K. 545
Schumann - _Fröhlicher Landmann_ and _Wilder Reiter_ from _Album für die Jugend_


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## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

Don't forget Lizst's Hungarian Dances. 
I hope Satie's Gymnopedie No. 1 has survived its commercial overuse in the '60s and '70s. 
Holst's The Planets has been mentioned, but Land of Hope and Glory has made Jupiter hard for me to get into. And it really bothers me how many songs have been set to the tune of Ode to Joy.

Has anyone read David McRaney's You Are Not So Smart? I think it's dealing with these issues of cultural pretentiousness.


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

Couchie said:


> Right, a car 4x more expensive than a Toyota and less reliable, a $5000 watch that keeps worse time than a $10 quartz, and a $1000 canvas bag sewn together with scraps of leather so easy to duplicate LVMH has to spend millions per year to seek out and shut down imitators (and check out LVMH's astronomical profit margins). All things which rely on brand image over real substance, if that's not the very definition of pretentiousness I don't know what is.
> 
> Anyways, you're just proving my point about society that desires the above shameless display of materialistic status symbols, but finds Wagnerian opera "pretentious". The problem isn't with Wagner, it's with society.


Oh dear, you're very serious aren't you --but do not worry all will be well one day. I said nothing about Wagner and as someone who ran away from home at 15 and joined the army I learned not to be pretentious I can assure you.


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## bigshot (Nov 22, 2011)

science said:


> Don't sell yourself short. With greater effort, you will be able not to like any of them.


I really don't think so. Several of those pieces are works I loved the first time I heard them, and as I learned more, I appreciated them even more. I listen to a wide variety of music... not just classical, but country, jazz, popular music, ethnic music, rock n roll, etc. With that wide a spectrum, I don't have time to burn out on any particular piece. I think if someone hates music that has self evident greatness, they probably are limiting their pool of choices too much.


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## kv466 (May 18, 2011)

I read someone say The 9 Beethoven Symphonies


For that matter, I can include the entire works of Bach and Mozart,...all of the Haydn symphonies and just about every piano concerto ever written as I listen to all of these over and over and over and over. I don't think I'll stop drinking a fine American I.P.A. anytime soon just because I've had too many of them...sure, I might go for a lager or a pilsner every now and then which would be the equivalent to going off on a Mahler (don't see that happening) or Wagner trip...still, I always go back to the I.P.A.s and I guess that's what I consider my favorite music to be. Don't see me growing tired of a good steak, either...


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## science (Oct 14, 2010)

How bad is the Radetsky March? I only hear it once or twice a year, so I can't get sick of it. But I've seen several people writing that they're tired of it. I wonder, how often do they hear it?

And how do they react when someone sings Happy Birthday?


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

I hate _anything_ that is played at Vienna Philharmonic's New Year's Concert.


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## science (Oct 14, 2010)

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> I hate _anything_ that is played at Vienna Philharmonic's New Year's Concert.


Bigshot, here's the guy you can learn from.


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## Oskaar (Mar 17, 2011)

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> I hate _anything_ that is played at Vienna Philharmonic's New Year's Concert.


I love everything! (As long I dont play it to often)


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## Huilunsoittaja (Apr 6, 2010)

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> I hate _anything_ that is played at Vienna Philharmonic's New Year's Concert.


You hate Tchaikovsky too then? He was played this year's Concert.


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## Sator (Jan 23, 2011)

Robert Craft complains that the Webern 6 Pieces Opus 6 is play so often "it is like pop music"


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

Huilunsoittaja said:


> You hate Tchaikovsky too then? He was played this year's Concert.


I didn't watch this year's concert. I do like Tchaikovsky though.


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## brianwalker (Dec 9, 2011)

Beethoven's 5th. 
Bach's Air. 
Mozart - First Movement, G Minor Symphony


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## Badinerie (May 3, 2008)

We can laugh at Marche Slave,Karelia,Night on a bare mountain,Air,1812,Nachtmusik,Peer Gynt et al..
But it was Lollipops like these that made suckers of us all!


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## science (Oct 14, 2010)

Badinerie said:


> We can laugh at Marche Slave,Karelia,Night on a bare mountain,Air,1812,Nachtmusik,Peer Gynt et al..
> But it was Lollipops like these that made suckers of us all!


So be it when I grow old -

Or *let me die!*


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## StlukesguildOhio (Dec 25, 2006)

What I'm saying is that Wagner is not typical of opera. Eg. the traditional "numbers" operas of the 19th century. His are through flowing things, eg. the Liebestod takes like what, half an hour at least. So of course people are generally receptive to an aria like from Carmen, Turandot, The Barber of Seville, etc. "Short and sweet" as they say.

With Wagner's fat lady finale stereotype, people get the wrong ideas about opera, eg. it's long-winded.

& for many - probably me included - Tatiana's Letter scene from Tchaikovsky's Eugene Onegin is a strech in the context of a recital (about 15 mins.). A former acquaintance who was in the opera industry agreed, for most people it's basically boring. Then can you imagine Wagner? Now that's what I'm saying, people have their limits in the general scheme of things...

Of course "most people" who have little or no experience of classical music... let alone opera... come to classical music from the mind-set of popular music and the dominant musical form: the 3 1/2 minute song. There are those catchy moments in classical music that mirror the song... but a lot of classical music involves the development of themes over a broader time-frame. "Most people" who find Wagner "long-winded" will just as likely find much of Mahler, Bruckner, Puccini, Verdi, Richard Strauss, Beethoven, Mozart, Beethoven, and Bach equally "long-winded" with the exception of those "greatest hit" moments.


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## StlukesguildOhio (Dec 25, 2006)

jhar26- If people would argue that for example Katherine Jenkins is a great crossover singer few opera lovers would object. But in the media she's often described as "the world's greatest or most successfull operatic soprano", and well, she isn't. She's a microphone singer who to my knowledge has never even sung a role in a opera house.

moody- Not only that but she's a mezzo who makes hooting noises and she's certainly not great --just annoying, but it's the power of the marketing men.

But she does have some undeniable "assets":



















And poor Anna Netrebko gets taken to the wringer by a bunch of tin-eared self-proclaimed experts for coasting solely upon her looks?


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## Cnote11 (Jul 17, 2010)

I can't say I've ever had this problem and I love many of the pieces mentioned in this thread and feel no shame in doing so.


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

brianwalker said:


> Beethoven's 5th.
> Bach's Air.
> Mozart - First Movement, G Minor Symphony


What Bach air?


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

science said:


> Oh, this is all perfect.
> 
> I think we could go by performer as well. Andrei Rieu got a lot of attention recently. Josh Groban or Sarah Brightman could be other examples. Can't like anything by them!


They're not, truly 'classical' performers (and we'd have to include Boccelli, Karen Jenkins and hosts of other "Popera Singers") - none have ever professionally sung an opera in their lives. You're talking, basically, another genre -- not to necessarily put it down, but in another category than 'classical.' They're about as 'classical' as Evanescence's "Lacrimosa" - lol.


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

PetrB said:


> They're not, truly 'classical' performers (and we'd have to include Boccelli, Karen Jenkins and hosts of other "Popera Singers") - none have ever professionally sung an opera in their lives. You're talking, basically, another genre -- not to necessarily put it down, but in another category than 'classical.' They're about as 'classical' as Evanescence's "Lacrimosa" - lol.


What do you mean "not to put it down!?!?" That relatively popular genre of music sucks!


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

moody said:


> ... and as someone who ran away from home at 15 and joined the army I learned not to be pretentious I can assure you.


Oooh, there's a story There, to be sure!


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> What do you mean "not to put it down!?!?" That relatively popular genre of music sucks!


For another thread, maybe? It will be filled with vitriol - some would mine, and it would be 'sharp.' -- and a few brave souls neither defending or excusing their taste for it, just brave enough in that flame-throwing environment to say they like some of it.

I'm more 'truly concerned' about the same marketing machine going to work for the Lang-Langs, Marc-Andre Hamelins, Valentina Lisitsas, etc. Huge fan bases, evidently believing they are all tremendous musicians worthy of comparison to Gilels, Richter, etc. - I'm sure there are other instrumentalists and singers in that same category.


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

StlukesguildOhio said:


> jhar26- If people would argue that for example Katherine Jenkins is a great crossover singer few opera lovers would object. But in the media she's often described as "the world's greatest or most successfull operatic soprano", and well, she isn't. She's a microphone singer who to my knowledge has never even sung a role in a opera house.
> 
> moody- Not only that but she's a mezzo who makes hooting noises and she's certainly not great --just annoying, but it's the power of the marketing men.
> 
> ...


Looking at the photos, I wonder how many of Jenkins 'assets' were purchased....


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## StlukesguildOhio (Dec 25, 2006)

While there are certainly examples of pop music that I would be embarrassed to admit that I once loved, I don't feel this way toward any of the classical works that I first came to embrace. Perhaps I now recognize that Handel's _Water Music_, Bach's _Brandenburgs_, Vivaldi's_ Four Seasons_, Mozart's _Eine Kleine Nachtmusic_, Ravel's _Bolero_, etc... aren't the greatest works of music... aren't even the greatest works by these composers... I still enjoy them. I don't listen to the _Four Seasons_ 20 times a month and so I don't understand how it is "over-played" considering I'm the one who decides when it gets played and how often. I don't feel the need to dislike (or feign dislike) for a popular work in order to prove my own level of sophistication. I listen to a broad array of music... some of it rather less-well-known... some of it quite popular... but I don't listen to anything in order to impress others... but rather solely for the pleasure it brings me.


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## tgtr0660 (Jan 29, 2010)

science said:


> I'm thinking of the works that suffer among the highbrow because they're too popular among the hoi polloi.
> 
> - Vivaldi's Four Seasons
> - Tchaikovsky's 1812 Overture
> ...


 I like absolutely all of them.


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## everythingthrume (May 1, 2012)

Ditto! Those endless lists of Johann Strauss family's waltzes.


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## Jeremy Marchant (Mar 11, 2010)

science said:


> I'm thinking of the works that suffer among the highbrow because they're too popular among the hoi polloi.
> 
> - Vivaldi's Four Seasons
> - Tchaikovsky's 1812 Overture
> ...


I think you have to take these case by case.

Ravel, himself, hated the _Bolero _(and with good reason).

The Strauss pieces are not intended to be serious music and no doubt their composers would have been horrified to imagine their _bonnes bouches_ were being measured against the _Grosse Fuge_.

"Albinoni's Adagio (rev. Giazotto)" is incorrectly ascribed: it would be more accurately described as "Giazotto's _Adagio_, flagrantly trading off Albinoni's good name to market an irretrievably mawkish piece of kitsch". (Incidentally, it doesn't matter whether you like it - I like it - it doesn't stop it being a slur on a decent composer's name.)

"_Moonlight _sonata" is term used to mean "the first movement of Beethoven's _Moonlight _sonata". I don't think "highbrow" music connoisseurs would dare to censure Beethoven just because of the popularity of this movement.

Probably ditto for _The four seasons_.

_1812 _overture. A potboiler. I can't imagine that even Tchaikovsky had any fantasies about the quality of this piece.

Of the pieces listed, it is the Barber _Adagio _that I feel has been traduced the most. It is a fine piece of writing, exemplifying how much you can wring out of major and minor seconds and, no doubt, represented the expression of some real emotion of the composer's. That it has been so thoroughly violated and prostituted by the gutter media is rather sad.


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## cwarchc (Apr 28, 2012)

Isn't this just because we have become too exposed to these "popular" pieces 
They are on tv shows, adverts and the like
As well as the multitude of "talent" shows.
This doesn't make them bad, it just means we associate to them differently.
Surely if they get peopple interested in classical music which then broadens their tastes then it's not a bad thing, or is it?


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