# Clapping when the piece isn't over!



## Rachovsky

I feel the need to rant some. I am listening to the Proms performance for today of Mahler's First symphony performed by the Orchestra de Paris and conducted by Cristoph Eschenbach. I absolutely looooove his Mahler interpretation, but that's not my point. After the first movement everyone started clapping. I would be so mad! I don't even like it when people cough or talk between movements! You should shut up and think about what you just heard! Also, I figured even the greenest knew a symphony was longer than one movement... Anyways, If I was the conductor or performer, I would be so pissed off if everyone clapped.

Thoughts?!


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## Rachovsky

Oh my god! They just clapped after the second movement and some dumbass yelled "BRAVO!"

Come on people.....


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## Matthew

Well, unfortunately there isn't much we can do, just hope it doesn't happen again? I think it is just a fact of classical music that it might happen


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## World Violist

I was at a concert once of the Cincinnati Symphony performing some new work, and the cadence was much like the end of Mahler's first, but it was a bit too convincing before the last couple of short notes; some people started clapping before it was over, and Paavo Jarvi turned around and absolutely death-glared the audience as he conducted the last two notes... oh, that was bad. Oh well; at least it was at the VERY END and not in the middle...


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## Kezza

Yeah I hate it too, especially when I'm playing!!! No respect for the entire piece. I reckon the massive applause at the end is more satisfying then normal half-hearted applause.
And witht the coughing thing...

I was at a concert the other week seeing the Australian Chamber Orchestra and the last piece they played was Vicaldi Four Seasons and after EVERY SINGLE movement 90% of the old men would cough, splutter and wheeze which sounded really gross after the beautiful music. And Vivaldi has like 12 movements so you could just imagine...


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## Weston

Do I understand correctly this waiting to clap is really a recent development and concerts back in the classical era had more of a rock concert air about them? People would even yell for the movements to be replayed before a piece was finished.

I'm torn between wanting to absorb the perfromance with all my attention and in being nervous wondering if someone will clap between movements, feeling embarrased for them and for the musicians. It's just an awkward time all around whether people clap or not.

Thank God for CD's!


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## Elaryad

When I was not into classical music I didn't know about the movements thing. Believe me it's a very strange thing if you're not into classical. Because usually when musicians stop playing the audience claps. So I avoided to clap at first
Strange is that a massive audience doesn't know about the clapping etiquette and everyone starts clapping.
But for me coughing is the worse thing.


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## woodwind_fan

I was at the Proms the night before this. They clapped in between every movement of The Planets (except between the last two by which point I think the conductor was so annoyed he pretty much went straight from one to the other).

It was painful.


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## marval

The trouble is some people are not sure when to clap. If one person decides to clap, those that are unsure will join in. I would never clap until the end, take the lead from the conductor, they will let you know when the music is finished. And of course the orchestra will relax with their instruments.


Margaret


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## soundandfury

In the (minor, insignificant, provincial) concert band I'm in, we were playing Poet and Peasant Overture (von Suppe), and about half the audience clapped at the end of the slow part - it's not even a separate movement (at least not on the parts) - just a caesura! However, the experience was probably worst for our conductor, who told us afterwards that he had been scared we might sort of die away or something.
So, moral of this story: It's annoying when it happens when you're in the audience, but it's much worse when you're playing, and worse still if you're the stick-waver.


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## Herbstlied

Just reading ''Clapping'' (the first word of the title of this thread), I knew what is it about... 
Well...it's comforting to know that this doesn't only happen in Syria.!!


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## Rachovsky

Yeah, I guess it's hard to know when to clap or not if your a newcomer. People usually do wait until one person begins clapping. Coughing annoys me a lot too. It's unreal how many people cough between movements of pieces. Eschenbach moved from the end of the 3rd movement and into the 4th very quickly after the first two incidents. I even get nervous when no one claps after a piece if completely over. Claudio Abbado was conducting Mahler's 3rd at the Luzerne Festival and noone clapped at the end for like 30 seconds. Sometimes you think it's because they were so deeply moved; sometimes you think they just don't know the piece is over.


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## Elaryad

I know a history of a friend who was at a concert and there was this well known movement and a woman began to sing it. Yes, she told to her partner that was next to her that, "look here comes that part: tan tan-tan-tan", and she began to sing it. My friend never forgot this.


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## Ramamaiden

About the clapping, i agree that people shouldn´t do it after every movement cos is always a half hearted clapping that doesn´t suit the continuity of the piece. And specially not yelling BRAVo like someone said, hahaha.
About the coughing i think that is something inevitable. Best to hear some coughing at the end of the movement because at least you expect them, than hearing them in the middle of a piece. The thing is that people must try to cough and do all the nasty noises as quiet and quickly as possible, so at least that way it will sound a little less disgusting =P. 
Btw, nice thread, it's interesting to hear all point of views.

The only good thing about all this is the funny anecdotes that people have been through. Well, it's funny after it happens of course xD.


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## Krummhorn

As a performer, I really hate the early applause - and it breaks, somewhat, my concentration on the piece being played. It's very annoying ... but on my programs, I will list the movements, and that has helped, but there is always one cretin who lives for being the most rude person in the room. 

I guess all we can collectively do is keep trying to educate people about classical music.


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## jhar26

The thing that bothers me the most is not what happens between movements but that some people actually cough during quiet passages in the music. When there's a pianissimo in a slow movement you can bet that there will always be a few audience members that will empty their throats. 

I wouldn't mind the clapping between movements if it were a general enthusiastic response to the music (like in the opera after an especially well done aria), but it's always a few of the unitiated who for a second or two think it's the right thing to do while the rest of the audience looks at them as though they are idiots. 

I would be in favor of ending each concert with an half hour's worth of short-ish popular classics where the audience can applaud every four or five minutes and loosen up a little so that even those unfamiliar with classical music will leave the hall feeling that they have had a good time, instead of feeling that they have just been at a church service.


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## altiste

This is a particularly important issue for me when I am performing my own works usually because I'm trying to get a recording, and the last thing I want is clapping before the reverberation of the last notes has gone completely into silence. Sometimes this performance might be the first time the group is playing in a good acoustic, so it's really the first and only opportunity to get that recording. This was the case in April when my Tango Suite for String Quartet was performed.

That occasion will linger in the memory as we had in the audience, unfortunately, a solitary person oblivious to the concertgoing culture of not clapping between movements. The loud claps came immediately after each short movement hence the rapid fades. On one of the pieces we hadn't finished playing (it ends quietly), but I managed to edit on the ending from the same few bars that we had looked at as a warmup just before the concert. Even worse, this same person got up during the slow movement of the Mozart Piano Concerto and walked the length of the rather resonant hall in hard-heeled shoes clacking extremely loudly.


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## David C Coleman

I think the trouble with the Proms concerts is two fold. Firstly there a lot of first timers who attend there, maybe invited by friends ecetera, who don't really know the pieces performed and think that it's polite to applaud after every movement. 
And the sheer occasion of the Proms being a celebration of music, so the audience tends to be rather exhubriant and "in a party" mood..
Maybe they should put " Please do not clap in between movements" in the concert brochure..


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## Guest

It has crept in at orchestral concerts in NZ, and it is more than likely due to first time concert goers, They do seem to get the message quite quickly after a few hard looks, but at least they are going to concerts, I have only encountered it a couple of times at chamber music concerts, a different class of audience, *please don't take that as elitism*.
Also in the 18th cent it was quite normal to show appreciation between movements and if the applause was long and loud enough a movement would be repeated and sometimes repeated again.
Annoying though it is just have a bit of tolerance to the newcomers


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## Krummhorn

David C Coleman said:


> . . . maybe they should put " Please do not clap in between movements" in the concert brochure..


I've seen a similar statement in a program awhile ago ... it read "Please hold all applause until the end of the program". But, there will always be some nut ... ...


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## David C Coleman

All -in all, I think it's very difficult for such a vast auditorium of people to be absolutley quiet during a performance. Don't forget not everybody is 100% healthy who attend, they may have some medical condition that makes them cough or sneeze or something. I remember, myself on a few occasions trying to hold back a sneeze or cough or something, my eyes watering not to do it, and then you are concentrating on that and taking all my enjoyment away from listening to the music. (sigh!)..


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## Rachovsky

David C Coleman said:


> All -in all, I think it's very difficult for such a vast auditorium of people to be absolutley quiet during a performance. Don't forget not everybody is 100% healthy who attend, they may have some medical condition that makes them cough or sneeze or something. I remember, myself on a few occasions trying to hold back a sneeze or cough or something, my eyes watering not to do it, and then you are concentrating on that and taking all my enjoyment away from listening to the music. (sigh!)..


Ah yes, me too David. I always try to hold back my coughs. What really takes away from my experience is when I have to go to the bathroom... I start wiggling and forgetting to listen to the music, haha.

When I went last time, a man beside me started pretend-conducting or something and It really got me annoyed cuz I couldn't even concentrate on the music for his big hand swinging in the air...


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## Yagan Kiely

People should be allowed to cough in between movement, after all, they have been holding it during the performance so it doesn't interrupt the piece.


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## PostMinimalist

I personally have never heard the last 12 bars of Tosca! Every performance ends with the audience clapping and shouting just after she jumps off the battlements. I don't mind, in fact I join in. It's part of the recognized performance etiquette for this and many other operas. A case in the concert hall might be to cite the third movement of Tchaikovsky's 6th symphony; there is a roar of applause after this in any concert performance worth it's salt! It's just something you have to applaud. Other moments worthy of isolation with in a concerted work ins a particularly well played slow movement from a concerto. Radu Lupu received a standing ovation for the second movement of Beethoven's 4th Piano Concerto a few years back and was delighted and touched by this spontaneous gesture. 
On the other hand I do sympathize with the poor conductor and musicians (I was a pro orchestral player for 20 years) who have to finish the piece when they know there is no one able to hear what they're playing, or sit awkwardly on stage knowing that according to protocol they cannot acknowledge the praise they are receiving. One solution is for conductors and musicians to lighten up and acknowledge the applause when it comes - a short bow from the conductor after an impromptu outburst always goes down better than an austere, back-turning snob grimacing smugly at the orchestra. I don't believe that it is so rude to allow yourself the freedom to express delight and gratitude. 
Finally what really bugs me is people calling out in the middle of a solo. Not a frequent occurrence but it does happen. This can ruin concerts by distracting musicians who still have a lot of concentrated work to do. I have seen this happen in open air concerts (where there is a more relaxed atmosphere) several times, most notably with a Opera in the Park performance of Madame Butterfly where Liu's aria ground to a halt by a wanabe opera star singing along out of time! This however is not the same as showing appreciation but just sheer thoughtlessness. 
On Thursday there was an open air concert in the Herdion Attikus Roman amphitheater in Athens for which I had orchestrated several songs by Greek Composer Theodoakis (of Zorba the Greek fame) The set was presented in the program as a cycle of songs in the way Strauss's 'Last Four Songs' are. The audience not only clapped and cheered after every song but the 4000-seat packed auditorium sang or hummed along with New York Metropolitan Opera star Demitris Kavrakos (the soloist) in every song. I could be a prude and say what philistines they were (since this is considered to be a 'classical' concert) but the truth is I was flattered and enjoyed the whole experience! The audience was into the music and showed a deep love and appreciation of their chosen entertainment for the evening instead of sitting bolt upright and following some absurd quasi-Victorian law of etiquette. 

Brahms said that he had never heard the coda of the first movement of his Violin Concerto played in public since the audiences always exploded into spontaneous applause immediately after the cadenza!

It may not be what everybody wants or expects but I for one don't mind the occasional honest outburst of appreciation even if it breaks protocol.

FC


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## themusicismymaster

Mobile Phones!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Grrrr!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## purple99

Things were far worse a hundred years ago when half the audience had TB and coughed their guts up all the way through.

Premature adulation: if the conductor doesn't want it -- say because it breaks the unity of a piece - he should say so at the start of the programme. His job's to provide leadership and as a breed they tend not to be shy. So let him turn to the audience and say: "If we're fortunate enough to receive applause for this piece, thank you, but please keep it to the end as I'd like to preserve the music's integrity." It would take a particularly brave, or stupid, concert-goer to applaud after that.

People have been spoilt by sound-perfect CDs. They now expect to recreate that atmosphere in the concert hall and get all **** and bossy and grumpy and OCD about their fellow concert goers. Sorry, but it's not a sound-proofed recording studio with Kevin on his mixers polishing every note. It's a real-life, real-time event with living, breathing people who may cough and splutter a bit. 

I went to a Prom recently of RVW's piano concerto, during which there was a thunderstorm and torrential rain. It was the pianist Ashley Wass's debut  and no sooner had the rain stopped drumming on the roof -- following a MASSIVE crack of thunder -- a woman in front of me fell off her chair with a crash. 

That's the price you pay for hearing live music. The OCD snobs should lighten up and stop waving their fingers. If they want silence they can lock themselves in a darkened room at home. I wish they would. They're much more offensive than the occasional crack of thunder or sniffle. And no, rules and regulations printed in the programme is a bad idea. It's a live concert not a workplace disciplinary procedure!

Seriously, the moralistic finger-wavers with their moaning and etiquette demands and criticism of their fellow concert-goers and absurd desire to impose recording studio standards on a live concert, are far more damaging to classical music than some old biddie nodding off and falling off her chair. It’s all part of the age-old snobbery associated with classical music which has done so much harm. I say boot the snobs from the concert hall and let normal people enjoy the wonderful music. Besides, sleep is a natural reaction to some RVW...


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## R-F

purple99 said:


> I went to a Prom recently of RVW's piano concerto, during which there was a thunderstorm and torrential rain. It was the pianist Ashley Wass's debut  and no sooner had the rain stopped drumming on the roof -- following a MASSIVE crack of thunder -- a woman in front of me fell off her chair with a crash.


I was at that same Prom! Only Prom I went to, when I was on holiday in London. The thunderstorm was very surreal- more than anything the fact that the thunder actually synchronized itself with the music at times!
In that concert I was sitting almost directly behind the standing area, and there were a few disturbances I noticed there during the performances. About half way through _In the South_ a small man leaned forward and pushed a taller man, who turned round and pushed him back. They were about to go for each other when a man intervened and stopped them, but there was still a bit of quarreling between them- did you see it?
The other thing I noticed was a little later on. A woman standing near the back of the standing area suddenly fainted, and had to be lifted up by two men.
On another note, what was the Encore Ashley Wass played? I couldn't find out.


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## purple99

R-F said:


> I was at that same Prom! Only Prom I went to, when I was on holiday in London. The thunderstorm was very surreal- more than anything the fact that the thunder actually synchronized itself with the music at times!


I thought it was wonderful -- very dramatic. I've not been in the RAH before during a rain storm and was amazed how loud it was on that vast dome.



R-F said:


> In that concert I was sitting almost directly behind the standing area


So was I! 



R-F said:


> and there were a few disturbances I noticed there during the performances. About half way through _In the South_ a small man leaned forward and pushed a taller man, who turned round and pushed him back. They were about to go for each other when a man intervened and stopped them, but there was still a bit of quarreling between them- did you see it?


I missed that. I post a bit on the Radio 3 forums where a lot of Prommers hang out and am constantly amazed at the bad temper on display there. I'm sure the vast majority of Prommers are nice people but among them are some right vicious little snobs who moan constantly about coughing and clapping between movements and whether the second viola player's tie was done up properly. I witnessed one racially abuse a Chinese lady just before the St John Passion. They give classical music a bad name and I wouldn't be surprised if one of them had his nose rearranged. They should learn to behave like civilized adults gathered together in public space. I'm sure CDs are partly to blame -- they've been spoilt by scrubbed recordings and now expect public concerts to be the same.



R-F said:


> The other thing I noticed was a little later on. A woman standing near the back of the standing area suddenly fainted, and had to be lifted up by two men.


That was the lady I was thinking of. I suspect she was a learning difficulties person and fell off her chair after nodding off. I liked the way people around her rushed to help, brushed her down, and popped her back on her chair - all before an attendant even arrived. That's what I mean about most Prommers being decent people.



R-F said:


> On another note, what was the Encore Ashley Wass played? I couldn't find out.


I've just asked my g/f who was there with me and we can't remember.  Maybe check the Radio 3 forums? There's a thread there about that Prom. Poor Ashley Wass! That's one debut he'll never forget. But it means now he'll never be scared of _anything_.


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## themusicismymaster

Well,the last concert I attended was actually CD quality,no clapping between movements,no bum notes at all,except from the horn player,the only piece i disliked was the mozart horn concerto in e flat major,I am not a huge mozart fan,but the horn player was off beat,of course I forgave him taking into account that the french horn and oboe are jointly the hardest instruments to play.

It was a thoroughly enjoyable concert though,really very good,if your living in Ireland the Cologne New Philharmonic Chamber Orchestra are touring i think,just thought i'd recommend them,they have the movements listed in the programmes so no one clapped,i really think movements in the programme help,the concert i attended before that was dreadful!No notice in the programme either,the difference is noticable.


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## purple99

The Irish are used to sitting quietly in church.


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## Elaryad

themusicismymaster said:


> Mobile Phones!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> 
> Grrrr!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Don't even mention it. Being bronchial and clapping out of time is one thing, now leaving the damn cell phone turned on is absolute lack of respect, not only for musicians.


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## themusicismymaster

purple99 said:


> The Irish are used to sitting quietly in church.


 It's so true!


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## purple99

themusicismymaster said:


> It's so true!



View attachment 271




The message you have entered is too short. Please lengthen your message to at least 10 characters.


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## shsherm

Some people can't control themselves and the result is premature eclapulation.


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## Guest

purple99 said:


> View attachment 271
> 
> 
> The message you have entered is too short. Please lengthen your message to at least 10 characters.


Well at least you got two characters, nice to see you have not lost your touch


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## Canaan

Are most of these people who just haven't learned the 'protocol' yet? I'd be amazed if they were being deliberately rude. Would you rather they weren't there at all?

I went to a recital with my mother. She loves classical music, listens to WQXR, but she just didn't know the 'protocol' about applause. What was I supposed to do, make some remark about movements? I've never noticed that it's a serious problem. But where it is, the solution is just to make a note in the program that the custom at classical concerts is not to clap between movements.

Speaking of concert protocol, I don't think Andre Watts would have appreciated it if I'd followed through on my impulse to jump out of the balcony at Avery Fisher after his Appassionata.


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## soundandfury

*gotta love father ted!*



purple99 said:


> View attachment 271


by the way, that picture is now my desktop background. thanks!


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## Lang

purple99 said:


> I went to a Prom recently of RVW's piano concerto, during which there was a thunderstorm and torrential rain. It was the pianist Ashley Wass's debut  and no sooner had the rain stopped drumming on the roof -- following a MASSIVE crack of thunder -- a woman in front of me fell off her chair with a crash.


I remember a performance of Havergal Brian's Gothic Symphony in the Albert Hall when every choral society in London was present and there were large children's choirs along with a gigantic orchestra and brass and percussion bands in the boxes. The sound was overwhelming, and the whole symphony was punctuated by fainting choirboys, one of whom fell into one of the percussion sections with great effect.


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## Christi

World Violist said:


> I was at a concert once of the Cincinnati Symphony performing some new work, and the cadence was much like the end of Mahler's first, but it was a bit too convincing before the last couple of short notes; some people started clapping before it was over, and Paavo Jarvi turned around and absolutely death-glared the audience as he conducted the last two notes... oh, that was bad. Oh well; at least it was at the VERY END and not in the middle...


Why are they concerts and not programs ?


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## Krummhorn

Christi,

Concert is "A musical performance"

The Program is an ordered list of events ... i.e., what pieces are being played during the concert.


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## Guest

*Program*, in certain countries is also a colloquialism to mean Concert sorry if I am being pedantic


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## Christi

Krummhorn said:


> Christi,Concert is "A musical performance"The Program is an ordered list of events ... i.e., what pieces are being played during the concert.


The only concerts I've been to were Country


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## ErFurtwanglert

Who or what is this "Country"?

Since you captalize it, you are obviously referring to a poper noun. Ie: A specific person, place or thing, rather than the genre of music...


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