# Classical is too sophisticated, non-classical too stupid



## Dim7 (Apr 24, 2009)

Anyone else has this problem? I find it very difficult to find stuff that is in the sweet spot in terms of complexity & comprehensibility. Classical is too long-winded and requires too many listenings to get. Popular is underwhelming from an analytical standpoint. Progressive rock etc. is sufficiently complex, but otherwise badly (clumsily, unsinspiredly) done.


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

No. One big advantage I have is that I just listen, and don't analyse. I enjoy large parts of classical music, classic rock, jazz, and prog. What is clumsy and uninspired about prog?


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## Weston (Jul 11, 2008)

Granted a lot of prog is a bit dated with its woo-woo hippie sentiments, but I don't get the clumsy uninspired reference either. I wonder what kind of prog Dim7 has been hearing. No matter. There's a broad spectrum of listening experiences.

For me, I don't have trouble finding a sweet spot. I'm comfortable (now) with the complexity of Boulez or the deceptively simple Men Without Hats. I enjoy the challenge of works just a bit above my grasp and I also have guilty pleasures. I feel my life is rich and varied and I've barely scratched the surface.


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## Dim7 (Apr 24, 2009)

I fully admit that my knowledge of prog is limited. I was in fact more thinking about progressive metal, technical death metal etc. that I have heard.


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## Guest (Oct 5, 2015)

Dim7 said:


> Anyone else has this problem? I find it very difficult to find stuff that is in the sweet spot in terms of complexity & comprehensibility. Classical is too long-winded and requires too many listenings to get. Popular is underwhelming from an analytical standpoint. Progressive rock etc. is sufficiently complex, but otherwise badly (clumsily, unsinspiredly) done.


So....are you looking for classical that is "less sophisticated" or popular that is "less stupid" ?

Or something else?


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## Dim7 (Apr 24, 2009)

I'm probably just looking for an excuse to complain.


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## Guest (Oct 5, 2015)

Dim7 said:


> I'm probably just looking for an excuse to complain.


Fair enough. This is the place then.


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## Strange Magic (Sep 14, 2015)

Dim7, my apologies if the following suggestions are old news to you, but there are many dozens of "light classics" that might answer your need. Most of them are very late 19th or 20th century, and by a host of non-Germanic composers. Their virtues are that they are short and usually chock-full of fine melodies and, often, interesting rhythms and textures. Here are several composers and selections: Respighi-- all of his "Rome" pieces, plus Church Windows, 3 Botticelli Pictures, Brazilian Impressions.
Villa-Lobos-- all of the Bachianas Brasileiras (maybe skip #6). Rimsky-Korsakov--all his various suites, overtures, especially those drawn from his operas. Borodin-- ditto. Khachaturian-- Gayne, Masquerade suites. Prokofiev-- Love for 3 Oranges, Lt. Kije. Mosolov--Iron Foundry (that will wake you up!). Orff--Carmina Burana. Ferde Grofe--Grand Canyon Suite. Gershwin--Rhapsody in Blue. Copland--Billy the Kid, etc......the list is almost endless.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

Dim7 said:


> Anyone else has this problem? I find it very difficult to find stuff that is in the sweet spot in terms of complexity & comprehensibility. Classical is too long-winded and requires too many listenings to get. Popular is underwhelming from an analytical standpoint. Progressive rock etc. is sufficiently complex, but otherwise badly (clumsily, unsinspiredly) done.


And what does this have to do with the music itself?


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## Cosmos (Jun 28, 2013)

The pinnacle of sophistication, yes


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## brotagonist (Jul 11, 2013)

Classical does appear to be a more learned form of music (if I had said 'is', I know I would have gotten a myriad objections ) and non-classical seems to be more grass roots (exceptions abound), but they both have their place and their use. In my own life, classical is just a better fit, but I like to revisit my teenage angst from time to time 

I've always tended to the longterm appeal and the necessary repeated, attentive listens are a huge part of the appeal of classical for me. Popular and many other non-classical genres are catchy and tuneful and have an appeal for that very reason, but the appeal lasts days at the most, so I find myself constantly searching for a new pop music high. Even when I was a teenager, I used to get my fix of all my favourite songs before bed by playing about 15 seconds of a song (seriously! :tiphat—that's all it took to get its feel and rush—before moving on to the next one, often covering dozens of current favourites in less than 15 minutes before lights out. This still sums up my relationship with non-classical: I hear a few notes and I've already consumed the entire song.


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## Weston (Jul 11, 2008)

brotagonist said:


> . . . I used to get my fix of all my favourite songs before bed by playing about 15 seconds of a song (seriously! :tiphat-that's all it took to get its feel and rush-before moving on to the next one, often covering dozens of current favourites in less than 15 minutes before lights out. This still sums up my relationship with non-classical: I hear a few notes and I've already consumed the entire song.


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## Genoveva (Nov 9, 2010)

Dim7 said:


> Anyone else has this problem? I find it very difficult to find stuff that is in the sweet spot in terms of complexity & comprehensibility. Classical is too long-winded and requires too many listenings to get. Popular is underwhelming from an analytical standpoint. Progressive rock etc. is sufficiently complex, but otherwise badly (clumsily, unsinspiredly) done.


Have you tried Tangerine Dream?


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## Simon Moon (Oct 10, 2013)

Dim7 said:


> Anyone else has this problem? I find it very difficult to find stuff that is in the sweet spot in terms of complexity & comprehensibility. Classical is too long-winded and requires too many listenings to get. Popular is underwhelming from an analytical standpoint. Progressive rock etc. is sufficiently complex, but otherwise badly (clumsily, unsinspiredly) done.


My listening is pretty equally spread among classical, prog (avant-garde, prog-metal, technical metal) and jazz/fusion. No other music scratches any of my itches like these.

Have you explored the more avant-garde side of prog?

If you haven't, there may be a few nice surprises for you. If you have, carry on...

Some names to check out:

Universe Zero (Belgium)
Aranis (Belgium)
Thinking Plague (USA)
Sammla Mammaa Manna (Swedend) (can be quite playful at times)
Alamaailman Vasarat (Finland)
Yugen (Italy) 
Miriodor (Canada)
miRthkon (USA)

Here's a pretty good list of many of the bands that loosely fit in this sub-genre:

http://www.progarchives.com/subgenre.asp?style=36


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## DeepR (Apr 13, 2012)

I suggest ambient music for unobtrusive sophistication in a non-analytical kind of way.


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## GreenMamba (Oct 14, 2012)

I think I'm the opposite of the OP. I like either the complexity/sophstication of Classical and the simplicity/directness of pop/rock, but not the stuff that tries to fit in between. Most Prog Rock sounds pretentious, tacky, etc. to me. Ambient, Nanes and a lot of film and video game music maybe *sounds* good on the surface, but is inevitably too predictable.


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## Schubussy (Nov 2, 2012)

GreenMamba said:


> I think I'm the opposite of the OP. I like either the complexity/sophstication of Classical and the simplicity/directness of pop/rock, but not the stuff that tries to fit in between. Most Prog Rock sounds pretentious, tacky, etc. to me. Ambient, Nanes and a lot of film and video game music maybe *sounds* good on the surface, but is inevitably too predictable.


I do like some prog but in general when it comes to rock music I endorse the mantra 'Three chords good, two chords better, one chord best'.


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## Dim7 (Apr 24, 2009)

You're not quite the opposite, GreenMamba. I complained about prog rock as well. I think what I want is some kind of Mozart equivalent of prog rock. A nice balance of sophistication with catchiness/tunefulness. Not some 30 minute rhapsodic thing with endless virtuosity, weird time signatures and jagged rhythms....


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## Schubussy (Nov 2, 2012)

Dim7 said:


> You're not quite the opposite, GreenMamba. I complained about prog rock as well. I think what I want is some kind of Mozart equivalent of prog rock. A nice balance of sophistication with catchiness/tunefulness. Not some 30 minute rhapsodic thing with endless virtuosity, weird time signatures and jagged rhythms....


You might like Porcupine Tree


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

Dim7 said:


> You're not quite the opposite, GreenMamba. I complained about prog rock as well. I think what I want is some kind of Mozart equivalent of prog rock. A nice balance of sophistication with catchiness/tunefulness. Not some 30 minute rhapsodic thing with endless virtuosity, weird time signatures and jagged rhythms....


Maybe you should look in another direction. The musicians of the american songbook (Cole Porter, Carmichael, Vernon Duker, Richard Rodgers, Hugh Martin etc) or the brazilian guys (Jobim, Garoto, Valzinho, Edu lobo, Johnny Alf, Djavan, Guinga, Ivan Lins, Lo Borges, Toninho Horta, Francis Hime... many of the had a great theoric knowledge and if you're looking for tuneful and sophisticated stuff the brazilian music is a trove).
Or composers like Alec Wilder, Gerswhin or Gnattali.
Or the prog works of composers like Michael Mantler, certain baroque pop bands like the Free design. Stuff like the Steely Dan or the Yacht rock/City pop genres (for this you should check out the two mixtapes made by Ed Motta).


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## Chordalrock (Jan 21, 2014)

Complex textures become easy enough to follow with practice. Right now, part of your problem may be that you're unable to take in all the musical detail, so you get bored. 

After a year or two of practice, you may run into the problem that there's not enough music that is sophisticated enough for you.


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## Simon Moon (Oct 10, 2013)

Dim7 said:


> You're not quite the opposite, GreenMamba. I complained about prog rock as well. I think what I want is some kind of Mozart equivalent of prog rock. A nice balance of sophistication with catchiness/tunefulness. Not some 30 minute rhapsodic thing with endless virtuosity, weird time signatures and jagged rhythms....


See, I like 30 minute rhapsodic things with endless virtuosity, weird time signatures and jagged rhythms in most of the music I listen to. Although, there is plenty of great prog without the above attributes.

Riverside
Anathema (the later stuff, not the early metal stuff)
Lunatic Soul
Jade Warrior


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## Weston (Jul 11, 2008)

Dim7 said:


> You're not quite the opposite, GreenMamba. I complained about prog rock as well. I think what I want is some kind of Mozart equivalent of prog rock. A nice balance of sophistication with catchiness/tunefulness. Not some 30 minute rhapsodic thing with endless virtuosity, weird time signatures and jagged rhythms....


I know!

You might be looking for Dead Can Dance. Marketed as "goth." They are really just timeless music.


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## Weston (Jul 11, 2008)

Simon Moon said:


> My listening is pretty equally spread among classical, prog (avant-garde, prog-metal, technical metal) and jazz/fusion. No other music scratches any of my itches like these.
> 
> Have you explored the more avant-garde side of prog?
> 
> ...





Simon Moon said:


> See, I like 30 minute rhapsodic things with endless virtuosity, weird time signatures and jagged rhythms in most of the music I listen to. Although, there is plenty of great prog without the above attributes.
> 
> Riverside
> Anathema (the later stuff, not the early metal stuff)
> ...


You have impeccable taste! Thumbs up for Univers Zero (sans the 2nd "e") and Miriodor and Jade Warrior.

To that list I would add Birdsongs of the Mesozoic, Happy the Man, and very cautiously, Sleepytime Gorilla Museum. (I'm not recommending these for Dim7 however judging from finding jagged complex ramblings undesirable.)


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Well jazz is non-classical and a lot of it I find as difficult to follow as complex atonal music.


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## Dr Johnson (Jun 26, 2015)

You could try:

Henry Cow, Legend (full album on YouTube)

The Enid. Early album "In The Region of the Summer Stars on YouTube.

Sky

Focus, Moving Waves. Full album on YouTube

Jukka Tolonen, Tolonen! Full album on YouTube.


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## Guest (Oct 6, 2015)

Weston said:


> jagged complex ramblings


The staple of my diet!


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## Triplets (Sep 4, 2014)

To the OP:

There are only about 8 million Internet stations, grouped into something like 20,000 genre. Perhaps you can find one that suits your tastes, and quit complaining to the rest of us who love Classical and seek forums like this to escape from uncomprehending people such as you


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## Dim7 (Apr 24, 2009)

Triplets said:


> To the OP:
> 
> There are only about 8 million Internet stations, grouped into something like 20,000 genre. Perhaps you can find one that suits your tastes, and quit complaining to the rest of us who love Classical and seek forums like this to escape from uncomprehending people such as you


Maybe you can stay away from threads that do not interest you and quit complaining about them?


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## Vesteralen (Jul 14, 2011)

I don't like recommending music to people. What touches me may not touch you, even after repeated hearings.

My own experience has been that, with the best of classical, the best of jazz, the best of rock - the first three or four listens range from "no" to "what?" to "okay", the fourth or fifth to tenth listens get progressively better and better, around eleven listens or so the impact starts to fade. But, if I leave it for a while and come back later I can recapture the feel.

For me, there's seldom a substitute for this procedure. I can only think of a very few pieces of music that made a huge impact on first or second hearing that turned out to be worth repeated or long-term listening.


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