# How to Determine the Best of Haydn's Symphonies?



## MatthewWeflen (Jan 24, 2019)

Merl shared this Classic FM article with me, which is quite amusing:

"We made this guy listen to all 104 Haydn symphonies and put them in order of greatness"

https://www.classicfm.com/composers/haydn/guides/definitive-ranking-haydn-symphonies/

But I find myself disagreeing with some placements (83, for instance, is crazy low) as I make my way through my Adam Fischer Complete Haydn set. And I wonder - is it even possible to keep such a massive oeuvre in one's mind in trying to form favorites?

How should we go about this? Should Haydn-heads submit their list of top 30, and then we can work together a larger 104 item list from there?


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

There was a game in September involving all the Haydn symphonies.

These were the top ten:

1. Symphony no. 82 "The Bear"
2. Symphony no. 92 "Oxford"
3. Symphony no. 97
4. Symphony no. 104 "London"
5. Symphony no. 44 "Mourning"
5. Symphony no. 102
7. Symphony no. 6 "Le matin"
7. Symphony no. 43 "Mercury"
9. Symphony no. 101 "The Clock"
10. Symphony no. 31 "Horn Signal"


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## D Smith (Sep 13, 2014)

I listen to Haydn all the time and have to agree with your point; it would be impossible to remember them all when ranking. But I certainly could tell you which ones I like to listen to the most, which is a favourites as opposed to a best list.

I read that article too and found it entertaining.


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## SONNET CLV (May 31, 2014)

*How to Determine the Best of Haydn's Symphonies?*



MatthewWeflen said:


> ... How should we go about this? ...


Simple, really. The trick is to utilize a roulette-like wheel numbered 1 to 104. Want the best symphony? Spin the wheel and see where it stops on the pin. Works every time. Believe me. I'm a big Hadyn fan.


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## Kjetil Heggelund (Jan 4, 2016)

Today hasn't been the best day for the best Haydn symphony. I didn't hear any...A while ago I listened to the ones in a minor-key and loved them all!


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## Fabulin (Jun 10, 2019)

the latest are the greatest

I liked the 104th in particular, and the 82nd has that great allegretto


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

Fabulin said:


> I liked the 104th in particular, and the 82nd has that great allegretto


As it happens, my two favorites are 82 and 104.


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## MatthewWeflen (Jan 24, 2019)

OK, how about a different approach: If you're gearing up to listen to Haydn symphonies, and you have to choose one "decade" (i.e. 10s, 20s, 30s, etc.) which one do you go for?


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## MatthewWeflen (Jan 24, 2019)

Another question I have of more experienced Haydn-heads is: which of the second movements do you think is best? I find many of his symphonies losing steam in the 2nd.


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## Oldhoosierdude (May 29, 2016)

Put them all on a device in mp3 or flac or whatever. Hit the shuffle on the player then go crazy.


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## MatthewWeflen (Jan 24, 2019)

Oldhoosierdude said:


> Put them all on a device in mp3 or flac or whatever. Hit the shuffle on the player then go crazy.


I do have the entire set on one player. I would never hit shuffle, though. I like to listen to symphonies intact.


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## StDior (May 28, 2015)

MatthewWeflen said:


> Another question I have of more experienced Haydn-heads is: which of the second movements do you think is best? I find many of his symphonies losing steam in the 2nd.


Not so experienced as I do not know all Haydn symphonies, but among which I know and comparing only the second movements, the No.102 symphony's slow second movement is my favorite. I recommend listening to it in more versions, as some versions play too fast it.


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## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

^^If I were going to rank the 104 (there are actually more), I would also put 102 at the top of the list - that Finale is one of the most clever, witty things he wrote. Ranking the others is impossible - they're all wonderful in their own way.

Orchestras by and large don't play enough Haydn anymore, and in the case of amateur orchestras it's a real shame: there is no literature that trains a string section to play better in tune, to phrase the same way, and to use the bow as well as Haydn. Old time orchestra building conductors knew this, but so many young conductors today want to go right to Mahler, Shostakovich and other dazzlers.


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## Merl (Jul 28, 2016)

Lol, I knew you'd like that article, Matt. Made me laugh too. There's an amusing Mahler article like that online too. Tbh, I couldn't give you a top ten or so at the moment as I've not been listening to Haydn's symphonies lately and I often forget which one is which but I'd day that at least half of Bulldog's list would be in there.


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

I'm not sure about the value of comparing individual London symphonies with those from much earlier. I'm not even sure about comparing them with individual Paris symphonies. Also, I don't think it is necessary to rank all 104 - choosing the top 50 or 60 and perhaps putting them into some sort of ranked groups might be helpful for some people but once you have gone beyond that do you need to know that one person found 18 several steps better than 9 or 17 better than 50?


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

Last year, for the first time, I made sure I had heard all of them. I took notes, made a chart, and marked the ones I was particularly impressed by. I also singled out really strong individual movements in symphonies that I didn't like as much overall. Here is a sort of rough favorites list. I didn't bother with the Londons because everyone already knows about those (and I tend to prefer earlier ones):

23 & 28 — Thumbs up.

40, 44, 45, 46 & 47 — All of these are great.

56 — !

60, 63, 64, 66, & 67 — All at the top of my list.

71 — !

86, 87, 88, & 89 — Excellent one and all


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## MatthewWeflen (Jan 24, 2019)

RE: Bulldog's list - all good and memorable. 83 "The Hen" would be up there as well.

Re: EdwardBast's list - The 60s are a really nice stretch. I just left them in my listen through and was frequently looking at my player to make a note of my listening pleasure.


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## CnC Bartok (Jun 5, 2017)

I think I'd probably agree with the general idea that they get better as you get later, so if anyone comes up with 104 as the best, I certainly won't argue!

That said, I cannot think of a single indifferent one among the whole lot.

But my favourite remains No.26. It's dramatic, beautiful, powerful and quirky. What else do you want?

Sorry.


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

mbhaub said:


> ^^If I were going to rank the 104 (there are actually more), I would also put 102 at the top of the list - that Finale is one of the most clever, witty things he wrote. Ranking the others is impossible - they're all wonderful in their own way.
> 
> Orchestras by and large don't play enough Haydn anymore, and in the case of amateur orchestras it's a real shame: there is no literature that trains a string section to play better in tune, to phrase the same way, and to use the bow as well as Haydn. Old time orchestra building conductors knew this, but so many young conductors today want to go right to Mahler, Shostakovich and other dazzlers.


Haydn is also great training for the basic forms, structures of music...sonata form, minuet-trio, rondo, theme/variations, etc...Haydn puts it right out there....
All of my favorite conductors excelled at Haydn and Mozart...if a conductor can't make sense of Haydn...HTH are they going to deal with Mahler??


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## Brahmsian Colors (Sep 16, 2016)

Sorry, but even if you listen to them all and keep a record of your favorites, in time your tastes may still change here and there. Some of my most consistent favorites have been: 6,22,31,38,45,47,49,53,55,73,83,92,97,99. Mine is the Dorati set. Szell/Cleveland, Davis/Concertgebouw and Scherchen/Vienna State Opera Orchestra are favorite individual recordings.


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## Bigbang (Jun 2, 2019)

Bulldog said:


> There was a game in September involving all the Haydn symphonies.
> 
> These were the top ten:
> 
> ...


Is this top ten in ranking order, I know should be but thought I would ask to be sure.


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

Bigbang said:


> Is this top ten in ranking order, I know should be but thought I would ask to be sure.


Yes - ranking order.


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

Any list of top Haydn symphonies must include #88...a real perfect gem....#90 is very fine also.


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## SONNET CLV (May 31, 2014)

And … one of the best things about the 104 Haydn Symphonies is that there are actually three additional ones sometimes included in the "complete box sets": Symphony "A" In B Flat Major; Symphony "B" In B Flat Major; and the Sinfonia Concertante in B-Flat Major For Violin, Cello, Oboe, Bassoon & Orchestra, H. 1/105. These may not be anyone's absolutely _favorite_ Haydn works, but it's still good to think that maybe one can still discover a Haydn symphony he or she hasn't yet heard, even if, like me, you've heard all 104 … or 107 ….


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

A good friend of mine, who conducts a regional chorus/chamber orchestra, majored in musicology st conservatory...

Believe it or not, he knows EVERY Haydn symphony, all 104....name any Haydn symphony, he will name the key, the instrumentation, and sing any movement!! <<Hey, Frank, sing the slow mvt of Haydn Sym #xyz....>> he'll do it...it's pretty amazing...


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

Some of my favorites:


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

there's also official lyrics for the 104th


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## Haydn man (Jan 25, 2014)

I find my Haydn listening over the past year has been limited to obvious sets. The London, Paris and the Sturm und Drang symphonies.
No good reason for this but probably reflects where my current favourites reside, but could all change again next week


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## Olias (Nov 18, 2010)

I haven't found a Haydn Symphony I didn't like. The ones I tend to listen to the most though are 100, 102, 104, 88, 82, 92, and 63.


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## MatthewWeflen (Jan 24, 2019)

I just came across 76. I really like the break in the adagio, and the Menuetto is very pleasant!

edit: Just finished it. Very invigorating. It would be on my top ten list. 82 and 83 would figure very high on that list as well.


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## larold (Jul 20, 2017)

I've listened to Haydn a half-century and wouldn't say any of those listed here are among my favorites. These seem mostly to be the most well-known or popular. I agree they are fine … the first 1,000 times one hears them. After that...

Nos. 13, 39, 41, 52, 59, 60 and 70 (equally persuasive when rewritten for winds only) and 72.


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## MatthewWeflen (Jan 24, 2019)

Well, I've hit the Paris symphonies. 

Up until this point, I would say the 70s have been the most consistently engaging. I am not saying that those prior are bad in any way, the whole project has been pleasant. But once I got into the 70s things were consistently toe tapping, it seems as though Haydn set out to pep up his second movements, and everything gets a bit more, well, Beethovenian for lack of a better descriptor. So I would say that I tend to agree with the consensus that the Paris and London symphonies are the best, inasmuch as they typify this period he seems to be in. I am looking forward to getting to the symphonies in between Paris and London for this reason.

Last night I popped in Beethoven 1 and 2. While they have some Haydn-like features and employ a few of his techniques, they are an order of magnitude more complicated and relational between movements. I found them quite ravishing by contrast, really. Again, this is not to say that Haydn's are deficient or bad. They seem to just be aimed at a different target emotional spectrum.


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## Clairvoyance Enough (Jul 25, 2014)

I hate to be another proponent of this cliche, but my entire top ten would be nicknamed Londons. Barring 97-99, every single movement is an ear worm with an exciting development full of surprises. It is probably my favorite large body of music period. 

I understand subjectivity, but this guy's list is insane. The first movement of Surprise, one of the most elegant and buoyant ever, just dismissed and ranked criminally low. Funeral is top 3, but 45 isnt premier league? A sub #20 is better than stuff like Oxford and Military? I am a layman willing to be corrected, but the Londons sound like a quality leap in the same vein as Mozart's middle period piano concertos to his mature ones, and an obvious, unmistakable one. That guy's list is just... eugh, wrong! And the hen in 83 is obvious in the first movement, article guy!


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## Pyotr (Feb 26, 2013)

StDior said:


> Not so experienced as I do not know all Haydn symphonies, but among which I know and comparing only the second movements, the No.102 symphony's slow second movement is my favorite. I recommend listening to it in more versions, as some versions play too fast it.


My favorite second movement is Symphony No. 33 in C major, Hob.I:33: II. Andante. Has no whiz-bang codas or sudden jolts, just pure steady beautiful music.

102 comes in second, no pun intended.


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## MatthewWeflen (Jan 24, 2019)

I just listened to 101 "Die Uhr" several times. I think that's my favorite of his second movements.


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## Elsa52 (Feb 7, 2020)

https://www.random.org/lists/

Type in 1-104.

I recently bought all the scores and am doing just that for the chips & giggles.

POST 6 {i think}


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