# Schubert Symphony 9



## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

I picked up a vinyl copy of this and it blew me away with how exciting the performance was. I'm on the top floor of my house right now and my records are in the basement, so I can't tell you who the performers are, but it's incredible.

Really a very Romantic work for Schubert.


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## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

I'd like to know who the performers are. Who made this symphony actually exciting? This is one of those works that I have a huge blind spot for. I've never liked it and I don't care which "classic" recording I listen to. I can't stand playing it; in fact the last time one orchestra I'm in scheduled it I skipped that concert so I didn't have to sit through it again. "The Great" doesn't reflect its stature; no - it's a comment on the extreme length of the thing. It's just boring. So if you found a recording that is thrilling, that's great. Like to know who did it.


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

The performers are Carl Schuricht and the SDR Symphony Orchestra of Stuttgart.


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## joen_cph (Jan 17, 2010)

There are some excellent performances out there of that fine work, enigmatic in its majestic monumentalism and the weirdly fascinating, slower movement - both old ones (Mengelberg, Abendroth, Furtwängler) and newer ones (Harnoncourt/CtGebouw or the Berliners, Kertesz, d'Avalos, Munch, and others). The old ones in particular tend to build in more contrasts during the individual movements, in speed and accents. But some conductors surely make it a rather lifeless or boring affair (Marriner is one of them). I haven't heard Schuricht, but he did a great French Beethoven 4th, perhaps also a bit related to the energetic, positive tone of this symphony.


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## Animal the Drummer (Nov 14, 2015)

I've always found this piece easier to admire than to love and would rather listen to the "Unfinished", no.5 (my favourite of the nine) or Bartholomee's recording of the reconstructed no.10, parts of which are an absolute revelation. No.9 has some lovely passages - of course it does, it's Schubert - but has never really drawn me into its soundworld and very much needs the right interpreters to come alive. My recommended recording: Bruno Walter and the Columbia S.O.


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## pianozach (May 21, 2018)

Johannes Brahms thinks Schubert's 9th Symphony is actually his 7th Symphony.

But great Gmunden-Gastein, that's a story for another day.


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## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

I am not the greatest fan of it either. It has many great passages (and the 2nd movement is really good). But I find it too long and repetitive, esp. mvmts 3+4 and many themes trite. E.g. the intro is the most beautiful part of the first movement, I think, and the fast section a bit "downhill".
My favorite recordings are Furtwängler (live wartime), Munch and Sinopoli.


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

I do enjoy Schubert 9, but it has to be done right...lots of rhythmic drive...ACCENTS!!...peppy tempos...
Reiner/CSO and Toscanini/NBC are great recordings that fill the bill for me....strong, muscular...lots of energy...the accents have real kick, which is vital...

Schubert 9 can be absolutely deadly...plodding tempo, no accents, no forward drive...it is soporific...recently i heard a performance by Sawallisch/VPO that fell into this category...gawd, terrible...slow, plodding, a measure by measure struggle to overcome the inertia of static conducting...it's no wonder listeners come to dislike the work..
But in the right hands, it can be very exciting and fulfilling...


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

Heck148 said:


> I do enjoy Schubert 9, but it has to be done right...lots of rhythmic drive...ACCENTS!!...peppy tempos...
> Reiner/CSO and Toscanini/NBC are great recordings that fill the bill for me....strong, muscular...lots of energy...the accents have real kick, which is vital...
> 
> Schubert 9 can be absolutely deadly...plodding tempo, no accents, no forward drive...it is soporific...recently i heard a performance by Sawallisch/VPO that fell into this category...gawd, terrible...slow, plodding, a measure by measure struggle to overcome the inertia of static conducting...it's no wonder listeners come to dislike the work..
> But in the right hands, it can be very exciting and fulfilling...



Luckily I got an exciting version. I bought it blindly knowing I love Schubert. It sounded, pleasantly for me, different for the composer too.


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## Xisten267 (Sep 2, 2018)

This is my favorite Schubert symphony after the _Unfinished_. I think that when done right it's exciting, lively and profound. I particularly admire the middle movements. My go-to recording at the moment is Karajan/BPO, but I don't know yet the Reiner nor the Toscanini.


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## EvaBaron (Jan 3, 2022)

It has some really good moments, especially in the first movement, but I don’t love it yet. Maybe that will come, I haven’t listened to it that much, maybe 4 times or so. So far I have only listened to Munch and he’s very good. But I will keep trying, since I adore his 8th and his 5th


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## jegreenwood (Dec 25, 2015)

I loved it from the first moment I heard it. My first version was Toscanini/Philadelphia, and it certainly was exciting even with 1940s sound on a cheapo one-piece stereo. I love Munch/BSO, available on SACD, as well as Szell/Cleveland. I have some others, but I may not have given them fair chances. I especially need to return to Ivan Fischer's recording. I've listened to it twice. The first time I was unimpressed, but I enjoyed it more on a second listen. And the sound quality is outstanding.

I also recall hearing Gerard Schwarz conducting the New York Chamber Symphony, which was thrilling.


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## golfer72 (Jan 27, 2018)

Its an excellent Symp. Only have 1 version. Based on the comments here i will not seek out others


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## Rogerx (Apr 27, 2018)

Great seeing you boarding you horizon Captain, it swipes from Satie via Pink Floyd towards Schubert. .


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

Good Will has quite the collection of Classical!


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## RobertJTh (Sep 19, 2021)

Heck148 said:


> Schubert 9 can be absolutely deadly...plodding tempo, no accents, no forward drive...it is soporific...recently i heard a performance by Sawallisch/VPO that fell into this category...gawd, terrible...slow, plodding, a measure by measure struggle to overcome the inertia of static conducting...it's no wonder listeners come to dislike the work..


My first Schubert 9 was a live performance by Sawallisch which I taped off the radio, I think it was with the Concertgebouw. It made me fall in love with the work right away. And his studio recording with the Staatskapelle Dresden (not VPO) is generally regarded as on of the finest version of the symphony. I see there's an older recording with the Wiener Symphoniker, which didn't make it to CD.


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## Wilhelm Theophilus (Aug 8, 2020)

As someone much smarter than me once said "I like it a lot!"


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

It’s brilliant!


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## jegreenwood (Dec 25, 2015)

Ach - I forgot Solti VPO. This was back around 1983 and it was among the first 5 CDs I purchased. It got a lot of listened. As it was the only digital version I had for some time, it got a lot of listens.


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## bagpipers (Jun 29, 2013)

My all time "Fav" symphony 

I'm not super conductor picky but maybe Toscanin is my favorite ,although I like them all ,as I said I'm not conductor finicky!


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## LKB (Jul 27, 2021)

Xisten267 said:


> This is my favorite Schubert symphony after the _Unfinished_. I think that when done right it's exciting, lively and profound. I particularly admire the middle movements. My go-to recording at the moment is Karajan/BPO, but I don't know yet the Reiner nor the Toscanini.
> 
> View attachment 180421


This was my imprint for Schubert's Great C Major, a Christmas gift from an aunt, decades ago. It's not highly regarded by most critics, even among those who favored von Karajan, but l still love it to death just the same...


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## larold (Jul 20, 2017)

I've been spoiled by Josef Krips and London Symphony for 50 years and never heard another that doesn't keep the heavenly music earthbound. I was able to get it on a Japanese SHM-CD a few years back; now it sounds as good as anything made this century.

One of my friends whose mother was a cellist said she endlessly complained about playing the same phrase repeatedly during the symphony. I agree it can become cumbersome so best to listen rarely.


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

It seems to me to respond well to a variety of treatments - fast/slow; driven/slow-burn etc. - and (I am not a performer) I would hate to say how it should be played. I am a little baffled by those above looking for, and finding, excitement in it. It is a very very tuneful work (I find it hard not to whistle along with it) and wholly unique among the truly great Romantic symphonies. I am sure there are many superb recordings but I would single out Krips, Solti, Dausgaard and Savall at the moment. The first two are quite laid back - civilised and flowing and very satisfying - and the latter two are more radical. The Savall in particular is fresh but seems to have lost nothing of the older virtues. The fastest I know (yet it still works well) is Menuhin's with the Sinfonia Varvosa.


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## Brahmsianhorn (Feb 17, 2017)

My recording survey from another thread:

*Wilhelm Furtwängler/Berlin PO (1953) (Tahra, Audite) *
Furtwängler is uniquely powerful, intelligently developing each section with his special insight. As ever with this conductor the music is never stale, sounding as if it is being composed on the spot. The live 1953 does not boast as good sound as the studio 1951 (though still very full and present) but displays a slightly more nuanced interpretation.

*Wilhelm Furtwängler/Berlin PO (1951) (DG, Naxos, Praga, Music & Arts) *
The 1951 DG studio recording sounds excellent and could well be for many the version to live with, among the most generally recommendable of all Furtwängler recordings.

*Josef Krips/London SO (1958) (Decca) *
For a great stereo version Krips fits the bill, offering plenty of sonorous opulence and grandeur in a beautiful sounding recording.

*Wilhelm Furtwängler/Berlin PO (1942) (Tahra, Berlin PO, DG, Melodiya, Archipel) *
Many prefer Furtwängler's 1942 version above all, undoubtably his most urgent and intense, perhaps even a bit too much so for this symphony.

*Willem Mengelberg/Concertgebouw Orch. (1942) (Tahra, Philips, Biddulph, Andromeda) *
Mengelberg provides an authoritative reading from a skilled master with the Concertgeouw in virtuosic form.

*George Szell/Cleveland SO (1957) (Sony) *
Szell is less weighty but wonderfully energetic, an approach some may find preferable.

*Arturo Toscanini/Philadelphia Orch. (1941) (RCA, Guild, IDIS) *
Toscanini is likewise characteristically taut, powerful, and disciplined but also with a fair amount of nuance.

*Sir Georg Solti/Vienna PO (1981) (Decca) *
Solti is beautifully detailed and engaging in a more elegant intepretation.

*Günter Wand/NDR SO (1991) (RCA) *
Wand is unforced, richly detailed, and powerfully inspired in the outer movements.

*Charles Munch/Boston SO (1958) (RCA) *
Munch has the benefit of excellent sound in a generalized but strongly committed, energetic reading.

Further listening:

Bruno Walter/New York PO (1946) (Sony)
Eugen Jochum/Berlin RSO (1986) (Tahra)
Arturo Toscanini/NBC SO (1953) (RCA)
Carlos Païta/Royal PO (1987) (Lodia)
George Szell/Cleveland SO (1970) (EMI)
Otto Klemperer/Philharmonia Orch. (1960) (EMI)
Sir John Barbirolli/Hallé Orch. (1966) (EMI)
Bruno Walter/London SO (1938) (Dutton, Arlecchino)
Eugen Jochum/Bavarian RSO (1957) (DG)
Claudio Abbado/Chamber Orch. Of Europe (1987) (DG)


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## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

One recording that stands out for me is Gardiner's with the Vienna Philharmonic because of the recording engineering. The orchestral colors really pop out, and the variations in orchestral color add an additional level of interest to the repetitions of the themes.


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## RobertJTh (Sep 19, 2021)

larold said:


> I've been spoiled by Josef Krips and London Symphony for 50 years and never heard another that doesn't keep the heavenly music earthbound. I was able to get it on a Japanese SHM-CD a few years back; now it sounds as good as anything made this century.


Thsi famous recording somehow flew past my radar. I'm listening to it now, it's absolutely fantastic, so thanks for recommendation! I remember Krips from his beautifully shaped Mozart with the Concertgebouw Orchestra, didn't know Schubert came off even better in his hands. This one goes right to the top of my favorites.



> One of my friends whose mother was a cellist said she endlessly complained about playing the same phrase repeatedly during the symphony. I agree it can become cumbersome so best to listen rarely.


There are long stretches in this symphony that are written with the textures of his songs with accompaniment in his mind - the kind where you've got repeated piano figuration supporting the melody of the singer. And while no pianist will complain about having to play that kind of accompaniment, it's different with an orchestra. First violinists, used to the prima donna role, are less charmed of having to play that awkward fisrt movement 2nd theme accompaniment motive 24 times (or so, I've got the score here, but having counted them). It's strange, really. This problem - if you wanna call that - doesn't occur in the Unfinished, which is a perfectly idiomatic and well-orchestrated score. What was Schubert thinking? He must have realized that the textures he wrote would make it difficult or even impossible to have the symphony performed successfully.


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

String players tend to hate Schubert 9...the repetitious rhythmic string figures go on and on...it is a real challenge to keep pulse, energy and forward momentum going in these passages...a logy, stodgy tempo really kills it...


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## Brahmsian Colors (Sep 16, 2016)

Originally recorded on Epic (Columbia) lp, currently available on Sony cd, the first Szell/Cleveland interpretation is still my all time favorite of the Schubert "Great C Major".


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## jegreenwood (Dec 25, 2015)

larold said:


> I've been spoiled by Josef Krips and London Symphony for 50 years and never heard another that doesn't keep the heavenly music earthbound. I was able to get it on a Japanese SHM-CD a few years back; now it sounds as good as anything made this century.
> 
> One of my friends whose mother was a cellist said she endlessly complained about playing the same phrase repeatedly during the symphony. I agree it can become cumbersome so best to listen rarely.
> View attachment 180464


I have that in the Decca Analogue box. One of several that I have not listened to sufficiently.


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## Roger Knox (Jul 19, 2017)

William Forsythe's hugely successful ballet _The Vertiginous Thrill of Exactitude _(1996) is choreographed to the Great C Major's last movement. Schubert takes simple melodic and harmonic ideas and transforms them, up to a transcendent level. A little march or folk song-like phrase can have astonishing physical and emotional impact for me. The are only brief excerpts of the ballet on You Tube but at least one gets a sense of the spirit of the dance in Schubert's score.


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## starcat (6 mo ago)

This was one of the first symphonies I remember hearing and enjoying when it was featured in a live performance on BBC Radio 3 many years ago. I don't recall who the conductor or orchestra was on that occasion but my favourite now is Munch and the Boston Symphony.


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## Waehnen (Oct 31, 2021)

mbhaub said:


> I'd like to know who the performers are. Who made this symphony actually exciting? This is one of those works that I have a huge blind spot for. I've never liked it and I don't care which "classic" recording I listen to. I can't stand playing it; in fact the last time one orchestra I'm in scheduled it I skipped that concert so I didn't have to sit through it again. "The Great" doesn't reflect its stature; no - it's a comment on the extreme length of the thing. It's just boring. So if you found a recording that is thrilling, that's great. Like to know who did it.


For reasons I have yet to define, I also like the Unfinished much better. I have been somewhat indifferent towards the 9th for a long time already.

(Maybe I should listen to it again and analyze, why. Then again people tend to get mad at me if I try to find reasons for my reactions.)


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## RobertJTh (Sep 19, 2021)

Waehnen said:


> For reasons I have yet to define, I also like the Unfinished much better. I have been somewhat indifferent towards the 9th for a long time already.


Well, it's very C major. Extremely C major. It out-C-majors the Jupiter symphony. Take that one, multiply it with the finale of Beethoven's 5th and you have an idea how C major it is.
And that's a problem for some people, who are used to romantic symphonies with lots of mood swings and contrast. Schubert's 9th has as much contrast as a wall painted entirely in RAL9010. That's fine with a short single-mood piece, like your typical Schubert song, but this is a 50 minutes behemoth with 3 out of 4 movements consisting of over-saturated retina-burning brightness and brain-pounding jollity.

And still... there are those incredible, magical moments. The transition from the first to second theme in the andante, with the single note A expanding into the warmest of all F major chords and giving way to that miraculous theme in the violins. People who keep their eyes dry at that moment must have hearts of stone.
And there's a spot in the finale, where you get the strange feeling that the music is no longer earth-bound, but belongs to a higher, Apollonian sphere - and you get a glimpse of what I can only describe as heavenly happiness. And at that moment, the whole symphony suddenly makes sense, every note falls into its place, perfection is achieved, everything is right with the world.

To me, there are no moments like that in the Unfinished (a similar passage in the 2nd movement comes close, though), and while I realize that it's better orchestrated than the 9th, formally stronger and more exemplary of what musical Romanticism would become later - I'd still pick the C major over it.


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## Roger Knox (Jul 19, 2017)

RobertJTh said:


> And still... there are those incredible, magical moments. The transition from the first to second theme in the andante, with the single note A expanding into the warmest of all F major chords and giving way to that miraculous theme in the violins. People who keep their eyes dry at that moment must have hearts of stone.
> And there's a spot in the finale, where you get the strange feeling that the music is no longer earth-bound, but belongs to a higher, Apollonian sphere - and you get a glimpse of what I can only describe as heavenly happiness. And at that moment, the whole symphony suddenly makes sense, every note falls into its place, perfection is achieved, everything is right with the world.


I have similar experiences listening to Schubert's Ninth, and I also think that the Finale is a rarity in that it is both fast and highly emotional. I especially like your image of the "higher Apollonian sphere." In fact I think of being on a chariot ride through the sky with Apollo at the reins. In addition to the place of "heavenly happiness," there is the development section where the chariot twists and turns though some sharp modulations. And there are times when a simple move from one triad to another seems incredibly moving. The whole Finale is a work of genius.


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## vgvalkyrie (Jun 17, 2018)

larold said:


> I've been spoiled by Josef Krips and London Symphony for 50 years and never heard another that doesn't keep the heavenly music earthbound. I was able to get it on a Japanese SHM-CD a few years back; now it sounds as good as anything made this century.
> 
> One of my friends whose mother was a cellist said she endlessly complained about playing the same phrase repeatedly during the symphony. I agree it can become cumbersome so best to listen rarely.
> View attachment 180464


The Krips is a really excellent version, one of my favorites, perhaps my favorite one of all. The Munch and the Klemperer versions are favorites too. The dynamics just sound right. Not always the case, sadly.


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## Waehnen (Oct 31, 2021)

RobertJTh said:


> Well, it's very C major. Extremely C major. It out-C-majors the Jupiter symphony. Take that one, multiply it with the finale of Beethoven's 5th and you have an idea how C major it is.
> And that's a problem for some people, who are used to romantic symphonies with lots of mood swings and contrast. Schubert's 9th has as much contrast as a wall painted entirely in RAL9010. That's fine with a short single-mood piece, like your typical Schubert song, but this is a 50 minutes behemoth with 3 out of 4 movements consisting of over-saturated retina-burning brightness and brain-pounding jollity.
> 
> And still... there are those incredible, magical moments. The transition from the first to second theme in the andante, with the single note A expanding into the warmest of all F major chords and giving way to that miraculous theme in the violins. People who keep their eyes dry at that moment must have hearts of stone.
> ...



I listened to the finale yesterday while doing something else at the same time. I sure got a lot of C major shining bright, but I have got to believe you guys that there is more to it. Concentrated listening is required for me to spot the finesse or subtlety.


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## LKB (Jul 27, 2021)

And then there's the Knappertsbusch:






The pertinent moment is at 50:27. To get the full effect, start listening a minute or so earlier. 

For those unfamiliar with the performance, let's just say it's one of the rare occasions with a famous conductor where listeners almost invariably think, " OMFGYGTBFKMAYOOYM? "

Bwahahahaha... < cackling evilly as he twirls his mustache>


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## RobertJTh (Sep 19, 2021)

LKB said:


> And then there's the Knappertsbusch:
> The pertinent moment is at 50:27. To get the full effect, start listening a minute or so earlier.
> For those unfamiliar with the performance, let's just say it's one of the rare occasions with a famous conductor where listeners almost invariably think, " OMFGYGTBFKMAYOOYM? "
> Bwahahahaha... < cackling evilly as he twirls his mustache>


Maybe Kna discovered an unknown manuscript where Schubert put fermatas on those unison notes? 
But seriously, it works surprisingly well. It destroys the forward momentum of the coda, but the weight placed on those notes kind of fits the music. I kind of miss the old times where conductors were allowed to pull random tricks like that.


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## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

LKB said:


> And then there's the Knappertsbusch:


This picture captures the moment when, after hearing the coda, an audience member asks, "Was ist los" before receiving an upper cut from the conductor.


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