# Josquin Des Prez



## Trout

I was shocked when I could not find a thread on this magnificent composer. Surely, one of, if not _the_ greatest, Renaissance composer and one of the most influential composers who ever lived. Renaissance music doesn't seem to get much attention around here, so I feel he may be overlooked and underrated by many. So, without further ado...

*Josquin Des Prez*









Some of my favorites:

Absalon, fili mi
Ave Maria, gratia plena… Virgo serena
Déploration sur la Mort de Johannes Ockeghem
Missa de Beata Virgine
Missa L'Homme Arme
Missa Pange Lingua
Praeter rerum seriem

Many have considered _Missa Pange Lingua_ his masterpiece and rightfully so, however I have not encountered one of his pieces that I consider anything less than superb. Quite a prolific composer having 16 masses, 60 motets, and 60 chansons that survived (374 works in total have been attributed to him) which I greatly look forward to explore further. So, what are your experiences with this composer? What are some of your favorite works by him? Please do share.


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## violadude

Thank you Trout! I have heard of this composer but hadn't listened to his stuff until just now when I listened to some of those links. I really like it a lot!


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## Delicious Manager

Josquin was actually the Beethoven (or Monteverdi) of his time as he formed the bridge between two periods in the history and development of music - the Medieval and true Renaissance periods. His importance and quality as a composer cannot be underestimated and, without his enormous influence on the music of his time, things in the Renaissance might have been quite different (as the Baroque period would have been different without Monteverdi and the Romantic era without Beethoven).


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## Ukko

_Trout_
<< I was shocked when I could not find a thread on this magnificent composer. >>

Using the TC search engine? You were shocked?


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## Trout

Hilltroll72 said:


> _Trout_
> << I was shocked when I could not find a thread on this magnificent composer. >>
> 
> Using the TC search engine? You were shocked?


I used the google search engine: "site:talkclassical.com Josquin."


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## Ukko

Trout said:


> I used the google search engine: "site:talkclassical Josquin."


OK, I'm shocked.


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## violadude

Here's a piece I found by him that is pretty nice, the singers sound a bit out of tune in some parts though.

Everyone on here should give this composer a chance, even if you are not fond of vocal music. His music if beautiful!


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## Trout

violadude said:


> Here's a piece I found by him that is pretty nice, the singers sound a bit out of tune in some parts though.
> 
> Everyone on here should give this composer a chance, even if you are not fond of vocal music. His music if beautiful!


Nice discovery and thanks for exploring some more of his works. I also found another one of his magnificent pieces:





















His works are some of the most hidden masterpieces of classical music considering how little attention renaissance music seems to get. I hope there are others who will discover his music, if they have not already, and comment about what they found.


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## Andreas

Just recently discovered him. Adore his polyphony.


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## hocket

Cool a Josquin thread. I've certainly posted a few of these on the forum before, but I'll take any excuse...

Here's the peerless Orlando Consort:
















This 24 part Domine Quis Habitat is performed by The Huelgas Ensemble:






and this is The Hilliard Ensemble:


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## hocket

This has actually got the whole of the Hilliard's album of his Motets and Chansons (which is great) on it, but I actually put it here for the track at 38:50, En l'Ombre d'ung Buissonet because I couldn't find another decent version of it on Youtube:






and this is from their 'Missa Hercules Dux Ferrariae':


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## science

I think I've read that his most popular work was Missa L'homme armé. (There are two, the one "super voces musicales" is the famous one, "sexti toni" is less famous.)


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## Ramako

I am a newcomer to Renaissance music in general, but Josquin is the one who has really motivated me for the whole era (well, Dufay as well a bit) and has rapidly risen into my favourites of any era. _De Profundis Clamavis_ is one of the few works which really made me step back after first listening to it. I just stopped my player and sat for a few minutes - which I think I've only ever done once or perhaps twice before after a first hearing. _El Grillo_ of course I like, and the _Miserere_, but I will be on the lookout for to get more music from this wonderful composer. I have only been acquainted with him for a little over a month, so I am afraid I don't have anything more to say.


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## John Browne

I love his music.

This is currently my favorite piece by him. 




It is scored for 24 voices.

And this is really beautiful


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## Geo Dude

This highly reviewed album is my first Josquin album, and I have to admit that it sent my head spinning on my first and thus far only listen. It's quite complicated stuff if one pays attention.


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## Novelette

Geo Dude said:


> This highly reviewed album is my first Josquin album, and I have to admit that it sent my head spinning on my first and thus far only listen. It's quite complicated stuff if one pays attention.


I've been thinking about obtaining this album for quite some time. The sound quality is good?


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## Geo Dude

Novelette said:


> I've been thinking about obtaining this album for quite some time. The sound quality is good?


Yes, yes it is.


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## Blake

Oh look, another under-appreciated Medieval/Renaissance composer. These guys have produced some of the most beautiful vocal works of all time. Get to it, people.

By the way, here are some great recordings to pick up:

The Hilliard Ensemble: Motets and Chansons
http://www.amazon.com/Josquin-Desprez-Chansons-Hilliard-Ensemble/dp/B000TEPGZQ/ref=sr_1_1_bnp_1_mus?ie=UTF8&qid=1387250703&sr=8-1&keywords=hilliard+josquin

The Tallis Scholars Sing Josquin
http://www.amazon.com/Tallis-Scholars-Sing-Josquin-Desprez/dp/B000EGCTF4/ref=sr_1_sc_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1387250850&sr=8-1-spell&keywords=tallis+shcolars+josquin


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## Blake

Some more recordings:

1) A Sei Voci: _Missa Ave Maris Stella / Motets to the Virgin_
http://www.amazon.com/Missa-Maris-Stella-Motets-Virgin/dp/B000026DJA/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1387301003&sr=8-1&keywords=a+sei+voci+josquin

2) Oxford Camerata: _Missa L'Homme Arme_
http://www.amazon.com/Missa-LHomme-Arme-Josquin-Desprez/dp/B000007N5U/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1387301218&sr=8-1&keywords=jeremy+summerly+josquin

3) The Clerks Group: _Essential Josquin Des Prez_
http://www.amazon.com/Essential-Josquin-Des-Prez-D/dp/B000OCZ15S/ref=pd_sim_m_5

4) De Labiryntho: _Missa Hercules Dux Ferrariae_
http://www.amazon.com/Missa-Hercules-Dux-Ferrariae-Josquin/dp/B002OHQNUI/ref=sr_1_10?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1387301462&sr=1-10&keywords=josquin

5) Weser-Renaissance Bremen: _Josquin Desprez: De Profundis- Psalm Settings- Motets & Missa Ave Maris Stella Marian Motets_
http://www.amazon.com/Josquin-Desprez-Profundis-Settings-Motets/dp/B008U0FHC8/ref=pd_sim_m_4

http://www.amazon.com/Missa-Maris-Stella-Marian-Motets/dp/B0063FK5WO/ref=pd_sim_m_1

6) Alamire: _Josquin Desprez: Missa D'ung aultra amer Matets & Chansons_
http://www.amazon.com/Josquin-Desprez-aultra-Matets-Chansons/dp/B000Y11M3Y/ref=pd_sim_m_6


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## DiesIraeCX

I'm still a newcomer to Renaissance (and Medieval) era music, but Josquin des Prez has spoken to me the most _so far_. I've loved everything I've heard yet by him, especially the Sanctus from _Missa Pange Lingua_. I'm eager to discover more of his music, I've got my eye on the 2CD set, Tallis Scholars sing Josquin.


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## Chordalrock

Don't miss The Essential Josquin by the Clerks' Group. Their other Josquin recordings are also pretty good.

And I'm a fan of anything by Cappella Pratensis since their come-back, partly because they don't leave out leading tones (unlike most ensembles). You should check out their recording of Missa Ave maris stella. Unfortunately that's their only Josquin recording.


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## Mandryka

DiesIraeCX said:


> I'm still a newcomer to Renaissance (and Medieval) era music, but Josquin des Prez has spoken to me the most _so far_. I've loved everything I've heard yet by him, especially the Sanctus from _Missa Pange Lingua_. I'm eager to discover more of his music, I've got my eye on the 2CD set, Tallis Scholars sing Josquin.


For me one downside of Peter Phillips is that he's very conservative with ficta, so dissonances are less present. The upside is that the intonation is impeccable, and the performances are very poised and, and expressive. But the combination of a "tonal" or "modal" sound (I mean not specially chromatic) and a poised style can mean that the music sounds very beautiful but a bit safe, tame. Quite recently I enjoyed his M. Homme Armé svm and M. sine nomine. In both these recordings the balance of voices is fine, and it sounds to me like the ensembles are quite small.

Tallis is the only one to have recorded M. Sine Nomine and it just may be Josquin's best music. Anyway, it's something you'll like if you like contrapuntal music.

I haven't heard his M. Pange Lingue. For that I've started to enjoy the recording by De Labyrintho, because it's so full of feeling. Labyrintho are well worth trying out IMO, at least in the masses they've recorded which are not doubtfully attributed - M. Pange Lingue and M. Gaudeamus.

Don't just limit your listening to the masses. I have a friend who reckons the motets contain the best music, and I can sympathise. I'm a great fan of Orlando Consort in the motets.


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## tdc

Mandryka said:


> I'm a great fan of Orlando Consort in the motets.


Ha! That is the only Josquin recording I own, I remember liking it but other renaissance composers have left more of an impression on me... I'll have to give that another spin.


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## Manxfeeder

DiesIraeCX said:


> I I'm eager to discover more of his music, I've got my eye on the 2CD set, Tallis Scholars sing Josquin.


The Tallis Scholars are regularly criticized because they smooth out the dissonances, because that isn't the way musica ficta was interpreted back then. What they don't tell you is, in the Germanic area, they did smooth out the dissonances. So the Tallis Scholars are presenting Josquin as heard in what we know as Germany.


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## Mandryka

Manxfeeder said:


> What they don't tell you is, in the Germanic area, they did smooth out the dissonances. /QUOTE]
> 
> How do you know?


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## Manxfeeder

Mandryka said:


> Manxfeeder said:
> 
> 
> 
> What they don't tell you is, in the Germanic area, they did smooth out the dissonances. /QUOTE]
> 
> How do you know?
> 
> 
> 
> I read it in an article, but I don't have the cite.
Click to expand...


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## DiesIraeCX

Which ensemble/s would you say best brings out the dissonances?


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## Mandryka

DiesIraeCX said:


> Which ensemble/s would you say best brings out the dissonances?


In the masses, you could try Metamorphoses Homme Arme SVM


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## Manxfeeder

Manxfeeder said:


> I read it in an article, but I don't have the cite.


The "German custom" is in Aural Images in Lost Traditions: Sharps and Flats in the Sixteenth Century by Robert Toft, Chapter 3, Pages 95 through 102.


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## Mandryka

Manxfeeder said:


> The "German custom" is in Aural Images in Lost Traditions: Sharps and Flats in the Sixteenth Century by Robert Toft, Chapter 3, Pages 95 through 102.


Thanks, here's a review. It's not clear to me from that review whether Toft's ideas about German practice for singing a motet by Clemens non papa apply to Josquin, and I can't get the book because I'm not a member of a library any more.

http://scholarship.claremont.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1116&context=ppr


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## silentio

I would like to join his fan club. Probably my most favorite high Renaissance composer. When I was still trying to get early choral music and discern the voices of different composers, almost every single major work of Josquin captivated me instantly by their unearthly beauty and the naturalness of the flow (just like the best of Mozart).


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## juliante

I must say, to no particular end other than celebration - Missa Pange Lingua is one of the absolute most exquisite piece of music I know. I have the Tallis Scholar's recording, conducted by Peter Phillips. 

I can't imagine enjoying it more than this recording - but if anyone does have any recommendations to compliment this one, I would be interested. TIPHAT.


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## Josquin13

I don't know if I can recommend a recording of Josquin's "Missa Pange Lingua" that you'll enjoy more than the Tallis Scholars, but I can mention several CDs that offer different approaches to the mass (& to Josquin's music, in general) from Peter Phillips, which may expand your understanding of the music.

Personally, I tend to prefer the Italian ensemble, De Labyrintho, led by Walter Testolin in the music of Josquin, to the Tallis Scholars. Their recording of his Missa Gaudeamus (another masterpiece), for instance, won't likely be bettered in our lifetime. The group did record Josquin's "Missa Pange Lingua" early in their existence, but I've not heard it yet, despite my efforts to buy the CD from various Italian vendors, as it's only available as a download, and I don't download. (I imagine I'll get it eventually.) So, I can't say whether it's preferable to the Tallis Scholars recording or not, but I'd bet good money that it is, at least, according to my own expectations for this music.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B006TSNOFA/ref=cm_cd_asin_lnk

The other "Missa Pangua Lingua" recordings that are good, are (1) a Harmonia Mundi recording from Ensemble Clement Janequin & Ensemble Organum, led by Marcel Peres, who sets the mass in it's liturgical context (and doesn't transpose the music up, as Peter Phillips is fond of doing to accommodate his 'trademark' high soprano sound). Personally, I'm not always in the mood to listen to an entire mass, as I get impatient & just want to hear what Josquin composed, but others enjoy having all the other music mixed in (& the Peres recording is highly regarded):

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B001927MJA/ref=cm_cd_asin_lnk
https://www.amazon.com/Desprez-Ense...d=1518109851&sr=1-17&keywords=josquin+desprez

And (2), a recording by Metamorphoses & Biscantor!, led by Maurice Bourbon (not be confused with Bourbon's earlier recording of the same mass with Ensemble Metamorphoses de Paris, an earlier incarnation of the group):

https://www.amazon.com/Josquin-Desp...d=1518109851&sr=1-13&keywords=josquin+desprez

Finally, (3) there's a good chamber choir recording by Kammerchor Josquin des Prez, led by Ludwig Böhme, on the Carus label:

https://www.amazon.com/Josquin-Prez...D=51PwqO2wxxL&preST=_SX342_QL70_&dpSrc=detail

While the above recordings are all good to very good, I've yet to hear a great or completely satisfying recording of Josquin's Missa Pangua Lingua. Though perhaps De Labyrintho's recording is that.

For me, Peter Phillips best Josquin recordings to date are these two:

https://www.amazon.com/Josquin-Miss...D=51SdIrS8XGL&preST=_SY300_QL70_&dpSrc=detail
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B005SW2RQA/ref=cm_cd_asin_lnk

Along with the Tallis Scholars' performance of Josquin's Missa "La sol fa re mi" (which comes coupled with their Missa Panga Lingua), where Phillips doesn't transpose the music up, uncharacteristically, and it works well:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Josquin-De...D=6179cH%2BOX8L&preST=_SY300_QL70_&dpSrc=srch

Which is not to say that their "L'homme arme" masses aren't good too, along with the other releases in Phillips' Josquin Mass cycle, as they are. But I probably prefer Ensemble Metamorphoses' recording of Josquin's two "L'homme arme" masses myself, for example (that is, without members of Biscantor!, as I like Metamorphoses more when they sing with fewer singers). Like the Tallis Scholars, Bourbon & Metamorphoses/Biscantor! are also currently involved in recording all of Josquin's masses:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Messes-lho...47&sr=8-1&keywords=metamorphoses+l'homme+arme

As for my own preferences, I tend to like smaller ensembles in Josquin's music--such as the Orlando Consort, Hilliard Ensemble, and Ensemble Jachet de Mantoue, where I can hear the intricate, complex polyphony performed with greater clarity & nimbleness. The emotional & psychological content of the music can also be more immediately communicated and distinctive with just one individual singer to a part.

I'm also very much hoping that Cinquecento will record more Josquin, after their excellent CD of his student Jean Richafort's Requiem (which included a motet or two by Josquin), as well as Ensemble Musica Nova, La Main Harmonique, Diabolus in Musica, and La Morra, who are are all among my favorite ensembles today. New York Polyphony, as well.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Josquin-De...25605&sr=8-2&keywords=orlando+consort+josquin (this is a desert island disc in my collection)
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Josquin-De...pID=51FtlfIku0L&preST=_SX300_QL70_&dpSrc=srch (another great Josquin disc, which is unfortunately out of print & pricey these days. It's well worth trying to find at a reasonable price.)
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Josquin-De...ar-strip-0&keywords=Hilliard+ensemble+josquin (the early Hilliard Ensemble at their best.)
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Richafort-...D=61dNU2f%2BiIL&preST=_SY300_QL70_&dpSrc=srch

Cappella Pratensis has also recorded Josquin's Missa Ave Maria Stella, and some of the motets on a hybrid SACD entitled, "Vivat Leo!":

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Vivat-Leo-...pID=41sHaRrpAGL&preST=_SX300_QL70_&dpSrc=srch
https://www.amazon.com/Missa-Ave-Ma...d=1518109851&sr=1-24&keywords=josquin+desprez

Among groups that use more than one singer on a part, as I said above, De Labyrintho is a great favorite in the music of Josquin, and especially their Missa Gaudeamus (on the "Musica Sympolica" CD), and their singing of the motet, "Miserere Mei Deus" (both essential listening):

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Josquin-Mi...pID=51HppkrfhCL&preST=_SY300_QL70_&dpSrc=srch
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Music-Erco...8126317&sr=1-2&keywords=de+labyrintho+josquin

Weser-Renaissance, Bremen (which includes singers from the excellent group, Stimmwerck), led by Manfred Cordes, has also done two very good Josquin recordings, on the CPO label:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Desprez-Mi...D=61OCj%2BQd65L&preST=_SY300_QL70_&dpSrc=srch
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Josquin-De...398&sr=1-2&keywords=weser+renaissance+josquin

As has The Clerk's Group, led by Edward Wickham, on ASV, and The Medieval Ensemble of London on L'Oiseau Lyre:

https://www.amazon.com/Misa-Faisant...&keywords=josquin+medieval+ensemble+of+london (If interested, Presto Classical has reissued this CD)
https://www.amazon.com/Josquin-Fais...18108936&sr=1-2&keywords=josquin+clerks+group
https://www.amazon.com/Prez-Malheur...18108936&sr=1-5&keywords=josquin+clerks+group

By the way, among Josquin's motets, his "Inviolata, integra, et casta es Maria" (as sung by the Orlando Consort), "Miserere Mei Deus" (as sung by the Hilliard Ensemble, or De Labyrintho), "Qui Habitat" (as sung by the Huelgas Ensemble on a CD entitled "Utopia Triumphans"), and "Nymphes des bois" ("La deploration de Johannes Ockeghem"--as sung by the Orlando Consort, Hilliard Ensemble, or Cappella Pratensis) are essential listening, as they're among Josquin's finest motets, in my view. This motet is a great favorite of mine:






Regarding Josquin's Chansons, I'd recommend the following three recordings (along with the Chansons sung by the Hilliard Ensemble, already linked above):

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00E5R5PVS/ref=cm_cd_asin_lnk
https://www.amazon.com/Josquin-Prez...d=1518108710&sr=1-3&keywords=josquin+chansons
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00501ZJ4Q/ref=cm_cd_asin_lnk

There's also a recording by the Medieval Ensemble of London of Josquin's "Complete 3-part secular music" that was out of print for several decades, & had never been released on CD (only LP), until L'Oiseau Lyre recently reissued it in their Medieval/Renaissance music box set (unfortunately, there's no other way to get it):

https://www.amazon.com/Medieval-Ren...&sr=1-1&keywords=medieval+renaissance+box+set

Finally, lutenist Jacob Heringman is exceptional in the Renaissance lute settings of Josquin's music, and this one is an enjoyable, relaxing CD:

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B000TPVM7Q/ref=cm_cd_asin_lnk

For those looking for a good introductory book on Josquin, I'd recommend William Elders' guide (as David Fallows book has become exceedingly expensive):

https://www.amazon.com/dp/9058679411/ref=cm_cd_asin_lnk


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## JSBach85

I personally prefer Desprez sung with male choirs rather than mixed choirs according to the nature of its works that has lower pitch than 16th century Polyphony in Rome and Spain so there is no need to transpose as Tallis Scholars do. The other criteria I usually follow is OVPP performances or smaller choirs for Desprez and his contemporaries.

Sadly, I couldn't find a reference recording for Missa Pangue Lingua yet, however, I would recommend Marcel Peres/Ensemble Clement Janequin & Ensemble Organum:










I always appreciate to listen Renaissance Polyphony in a liturgical context as it should be, after all, this is church music, whether we like or not. The problem I have with Marcel Peres is his ornaments and I don't share his practice that everything should be sing as if it were Constantinople. For such reasons I am still waiting for the reference recording of Missa Pangue Lingua, hopefully Cinquecento or Cappella Pratensis will record it in the future.

The best Desprez Stabat Mater performance I could find is Dirk Snellings / Capilla Flamenca in his Pierre La Rue: Missa de septem doloribus recording:










OVPP choir, male choir, great transparency and clarity, excellent conducting and expressiveness. There is a video on youtube, the problem is the sound quality:






A live recording performance of Desprez Stabat Mater, unfortunately not available on CD is Andrew Kirkman/The Binchois Consort, another Renaissance ensemble for which I have great devotion. Sadly, the sound quality is pretty bad since was probably recorded by someone in the audience:






There are more recordings I can recommend without hesitation. For now, my reference recording for Desprez Missa l'Homme Arme is Bruno Turner / Pro Cantione Antiqua, London










I usually dislike Pro Cantione Antiqua because of their abusive vibrato but this one is an exception. This is also my reference recording for Ockeghem Requiem since also include instruments. Honestly, this is the best recording I could find of Pro Cantione Antiqua and a must have for those who enjoy Renaissance Polyphony under historical practices. A male and small choir as Franco-Flemish polyphony should be sung:


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## JSBach85

Another great recording and a must have of Josquin Desprez Masses is Peter Davies & Timothy Davies / The Medieval Ensemble of London:










I rather prefer The Medieval Ensemble of London over Pro Cantione Antiqua, they use less vibrato so they gain in clarity and transparency. This is without any question my favourite Josquin Desprez recording. The excellent Cantus Firmus along with their clearly technical expertise in this repertoire makes this recording stands over most of the Josquin Desprez recordings up to now. It's a shame that The Medieval Ensemble of London discography is quite small. The success of this recording explains itself just by looking at the stellar cast: Michael Chance, Rogers Covey-Crump, Paul Hillier, Michael George, ... one of the most competent male choir performing two of the best Desprez masses composed.






Finally my other favourite recordings are Weser-Renaissance Bremen / Missa Ave Maris Stella and Weser-Renaissance / De Profundis Motets



















I have been following with great interest Manfred Cordes Schutz recordings and up to day is my favourite performer since Cordes specialized in Schutz sacred works. Those performances, under the capable direction of Manfred Cordes, are among the best that I have ever heard of Josquin's works. The three counter-tenors: Franz Vitzthum, Alex Potter and Terry Wey (tenor altus) carry the treble parts smoothly with strength and a rich resonance. They represent the technical perfection: great pronunciation, great clarity, transparency, excellent diction, great balanced voices and textual expression, clear textures.


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## Josquin13

I agree about Capilla Flamenca (& should have mentioned them in my post above), as they're another ensemble that has given us some very fine Josquin (as well as Lassus, Busnois, & Ockeghem too). Capilla Flamenca are one of the groups that figure prominently in Jérôme Lejuene's excellent "The Flemish Polyphony" (or "La Polyphonie Flamande") box set, which I'd strongly recommend (as an introduction to the period, for 'one stop shoppers'):

https://www.amazon.com/Flemish-Poly...202168&sr=1-1-spell&keywords=flemish+polphony

Of particular interest to me in that box set--in relation to Josquin Des Prez--is Capilla Flamenca's recording of Johannes Ockeghem's motet, "Mort tu a navré on dart", which was a lamentation composed upon the death of Ockeghem's friend & probable teacher, the Burgundian composer, Gilles Binchois. This work is thought to have served as Josquin's model for his motet composed on the death of his friend & probable teacher, Ockeghem, "Nymphes des bois/La Déploration de Johannes Ockeghem". Capilla Flamenca's recording of this motet is first class, as is the recording from La Main Harmonique too. Unfortunately, their recording isn't on You Tube, but the latter's can be listened to in its entirety on the group's website:

http://www.lamainharmonique.fr/en/ (scroll down on the first page, & you'll find it in the "ÉCOUTEZ-NOUS!" section)

For comparison, here's Josquin's motet, "Nymphes des bois/La Déploration de Johannes Ockeghem":






In addition to Capilla Flamenca's recording of Josquin's Stabat Mater, there's another excellent performance on one of the CDs that I recommended above, from Ensemble Jachet de Mantoue. Their Stabat Mater is the first track on the CD, and can be listened to its entirety on the following website (along with the rest of the OOP album): (I prefer both versions to Herreweghe's larger choir version of the Stabat Mater, though Herreweghe's performance is well sung too):

http://www.classicalm.com/en/composition/31067/Desprez---Stabat-mater---Jachet-de-Mantoue

To fill out my above post, here are several more You Tube clips of my previous Josquin recommendations:

1) Missa Pange Lingua--performed by Ensemble Clement Janequin & Ensemble Organum, led by Marcel Peres: here the recording has been conveniently reduced to only Josquin's mass movements & the chanson upon which his mass is based: notice the distinctly lower pitch they sing the mass at, in contrast to Peter Phillips 'transposed up' high soprano version:






2) Fortunately, I find that two of De Labyrintho's three Josquin discs have been posted in their entirety on You Tube. The group's co-founder Bronislawa Falinksa has stated that they are especially devoted to the music of Josquin, and it shows in their performances. I would consider both CDs to be essential listening for those interested in further understanding (& contemplating) the divine nature of Josquin's genius:










3) Here are two more You Tube clips of "essential" Josquin motets, IMO, in addition to those I've already posted above: "Miserere mei Deus", and the massive "Qui Habitat":
















4) I would have also provided a link to the Medieval Ensemble of London's excellent recording of two Josquin masses, but JSBach85 beat me to it (see above).

5) Josquin's intense devotion to the Virgin Mary, or Queen Mary, i.e., the divine feminine, should also be mentioned or pointed out. As Josquin was deeply influenced by the cult of the Virgin Mary, which was very popular during the Middle ages and early Renaissance. In his liner notes, Walter Testolin speculates that Josquin may have been a devout follower of this cult, since many of his most memorable works are dedicated to Mary the Virgin (not only several masses, but over half his motets!)--explaining, for example, that the 12 repetitions of the word "Alma" at the opening of the Motet 'Alma Redemptoris Mater' are symbolic of "the twelve stars in Mary's crown". Testolin also mentions the acrostic "IOSQUINDesPREZ/ACAVVESCAUGA", made from the first letter of each line in the text of the Motet "Illibata Dei virgo Nutrix'--as a kind of self-portrait (presumably the text was written by Josquin). Which again reveals an intensely personal and reverential relationship between Josquin and the Virgin.

Here's a link to "Alma Redemptoris Mater":






Of course, Josquin's deeply felt motet "Inviolata, integra et cast es Maria", which I provided a YT link to in my earlier post, likewise serves as a strong testament of Josquin's devotion to the divine feminine (& it is my most favorite of his Marian motets, especially as sung by the Orlando Consort, which is the finest performance I've ever heard).

By the way, the above paragraph is partly quoted from a long review that I wrote of De Labyrintho's "Musica Symbolica" in early 2010. If anyone's interested in reading the full review, the title is "The Glory of Josquin", here's a link:

https://www.amazon.com/Josquin-Desp...&qid=1518206439&sr=1-1&keywords=de+labyrintho


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## Mandryka

This year I know of three new Josquin releases, viz. Tallis Scholars with MM di Dadi and Mousse De Biscaye; Metamorphoses Biscantor! with MM Fortuna Desperata and Mousse De Biscaye; Cappella Amsterdam with motets. Altogether a bumper Josquin year, but is it a vintage Josquin year? 

They’re all relatively recent and I haven’t really given any of them the attention they deserve. But I can say this much with a certain confidence: the Tallis Scholars release is excellent, combining poise and intensity and great beauty of tone in a way which I find irresistible. Both masses on their recording may or may not be by Josquin des Prez, and if they are they may or may not be very early works. Whatever. The quality and inventiveness of the music is very high. This CD alone makes 2018 a great Josquin millesime I think. 

I have enjoyed the Metamorphoses recording too.


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## Manxfeeder

Mandryka said:


> This year I know of three new Josquin releases, viz. Tallis Scholars with MM di Dadi and Mousse De Biscaye; Metamorphoses Biscantor! with MM Fortuna Desperata and Mousse De Biscaye; Cappella Amsterdam with motets. Altogether a bumper Josquin year, but is it a vintage Josquin year?
> 
> They're all relatively recent and I haven't really given any of them the attention they deserve. But I can say this much with a certain confidence: the Tallis Scholars release is excellent, combining poise and intensity and great beauty of tone in a way which I find irresistible. Both masses on their recording may or may not be by Josquin des Prez, and if they are they may or may not be very early works. Whatever. The quality and inventiveness of the music is very high. This CD alone makes 2018 a great Josquin millesime I think.
> 
> I have enjoyed the Metamorphoses recording too.


Thanks for the review. I was surprised to see the Tallis Scholars producing a new offering, and I was wondering how it turned out.


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## Mandryka

Manxfeeder said:


> Thanks for the review. I was surprised to see the Tallis Scholars producing a new offering, and I was wondering how it turned out.


In fact, I made a mistake, the new one is not Di Dadi/Mousse De Biscaye, it's Gaudeamus/L'ami Baudochon. I've not heard it but will listen today.


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## Joe Lebloitte

I'll be interested in reading your impressions of the Tallis Scholars' recording of Missas Gaudeamus and L'ami de Baudichon, Mandryka.


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## starthrower

I might scarf up those bargain Hilliard Ensemble box sets which include some Despres.


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## Mandryka

Joe Lebloitte said:


> I'll be interested in reading your impressions of the Tallis Scholars' recording of Missas Gaudeamus and L'ami de Baudichon, Mandryka.


It's rather British. Self assured, expressive without being demonstrative. Beautiful tone beautifully recorded, of course.

This is based on listening just once . . . so probably nonsense.


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## Joe Lebloitte

Yeah, I somewhat agree, Mandryka. The Tallis Scholars can always be counted on to give a reading that's well-marshaled: Fairly straightforward, technically highly proficient, with excellent balance, clarity and, as you say, tone. I had recently obtained Labryntho's CD of the Gaudeamus, the choir led by Walter Testolin, so comparing the two reveals some interesting differences. Where the Labryntho recording highlights individual voices, the Tallis Scholars emphasize unity. I can hear Peter Phillips holding back the sopranos on the Hosanna. I understand it's supposed to be exuberant, but Labryntho's high voices actually hurt my ears on that bit, especially when it returns after a very subdued Benedictus for which I've turned up the volume.


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## Mandryka

Joe Lebloitte said:


> Yeah, I somewhat agree, Mandryka. The Tallis Scholars can always be counted on to give a reading that's well-marshaled: Fairly straightforward, technically highly proficient, with excellent balance, clarity and, as you say, tone. I had recently obtained Labryntho's CD of the Gaudeamus, the choir led by Walter Testolin, so comparing the two reveals some interesting differences. Where the Labryntho recording highlights individual voices, the Tallis Scholars emphasize unity. I can hear Peter Phillips holding back the sopranos on the Hosanna. I understand it's supposed to be exuberant, but Labryntho's high voices actually hurt my ears on that bit, especially when it returns after a very subdued Benedictus for which I've turned up the volume.


Or maybe another way of seeing it, I'm not sure about this, I just propose it as a hypothesis, is that Testolin sees the music as being about lines of music with their own characterful melodies and rhythms, whereas Philips sees the music as about harmonies and chords created when the voices overlap.

Testolin is more demonstrative in his expression, how appropriate that is in a renaissance mass I could not say.


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## Mandryka

starthrower said:


> I might scarf up those bargain Hilliard Ensemble box sets which include some Despres.


I think the Hilliards are outstanding in most everything they do from medieval and renaissance repertoire.


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## philoctetes

starthrower said:


> I might scarf up those bargain Hilliard Ensemble box sets which include some Despres.


Go for it. The one with Josquin, Ockeghem, De la Rue, and Lassus is esssential. I'm not as familiar with the two newer boxes, but they drift off from the Flemish sources anyway.


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## starthrower

Yeah there's two 7-8 disc sets for only 15 dollars each. I'll grab them before Presto's sale ends in January.


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## starthrower

I never did pick up those Hilliard bargain boxes. But honestly I wasn't all that interested in Renaissance vocal music until very recently. Currently I'm listening to my Cantus Colln, La Venexiana, and Delitiae Musicae Monteverdi boxes, and I'm really into this vocal music now.

Has anyone seen or picked up the 34 CD box on Warner Classics? It's called Josquin and the Franco - Flemish School. I think I'm going to spring for this one. It features the Hilliard's and a few other ensembles. It includes four times as much music as the old 8 CD set. In the meantime I ordered two used CDs by the Tallis Scholars. The 2 disc essential set, and a Josquin CD.

At the moment I'm listening to the Orlando di Lasso disc from the Cantus Colln Edition.


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