# Who is finest? Sibelius? Bax?



## Rhinotop (Jul 8, 2016)

Who of these composers is the most heroic, the most inspired by his own country's nature, the most beautiful, the most cheer, the most pensative human being from Northern. With examples of works of both composers.


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## Mal (Jan 1, 2016)

Sibelius, and I'm British  Take any tone poems or symphonies, Sibelius is better. Only Vaughan Williams or Elgar might have a chance in a stand up fight against Sibelius, if you are looking for a Britain vs. Scandinavia war.


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## EddieRUKiddingVarese (Jan 8, 2013)

Sibelius no question


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## LOLWUT (Oct 12, 2016)

Unanimous vote for Sibelius.


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## StlukesguildOhio (Dec 25, 2006)

I quite enjoy Bax... but it's Sibelius.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Sibelius hands down.


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

Sibelius for me, but it's very close.


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

Another pick for Sibelius, although I prefer the chamber music of Bax.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

"Pensative"? But it's Sibelius anyway.


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## Mal (Jan 1, 2016)

Art Rock said:


> Sibelius for me, but it's very close.


It's not close!


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

Mal said:


> It's not close!


Yes, it is. What part of "for me" is so difficult to grasp?


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

Sibelius. bbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbb


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## Pat Fairlea (Dec 9, 2015)

Sibelius, though Bax wrote some outstanding music and deserves the same standing as VW, Elgar, Holst.


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## Mal (Jan 1, 2016)

Pat Fairlea said:


> Sibelius, though Bax wrote some outstanding music and deserves the same standing as VW, Elgar, Holst.


No way! My most boring extended musical experiences was trekking through Handley's Bax cycle. Experts agree:

"... for a little while, living in Northern California after college, I thought of giving up on the music altogether. I sold off a lot of my CDs, including all my copies of the symphonies of Arnold Bax, in order to pay for more Pere Ubu and Sonic Youth. I cut my hair short, wore angry T-shirts, and started hanging out at the Berkeley punk club 924 Gilman Street. I became a fan of a band called Blatz, which was about as far from Bax as I could get." - Alex Ross

http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2004/02/16/listen-to-this


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## Sloe (May 9, 2014)

Sibelius but I think it is a bit unfair I have not heard enough Bax. The first time I saw the name Bax written I thought it was Bach misspelled.


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## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

I'd have to go with Sibelius also. Though a fun week is listening to one Bax symphony a night. They all seem to make sense heard in order.


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## Mal (Jan 1, 2016)

From experience, listening to a full Bax cycle is not my definition of a fun week. Maybe I just need to keep trying, and listen to other versions, but there are many other (supposedly) greater composers that I need to learn to fully appreciate first, I think.


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## AClockworkOrange (May 24, 2012)

I love both Composers but I'd give the edge to Sibelius.

Like Artrock, it is surprisingly close for me. Both Composers have their distinct strengths.

Bax is in my top 10 favourite British Composers. He was, for me, an excellent composer with an interesting voice. A voice which carried some of Sibelius' influence - such as with the Fifth Symphony which was actually dedicated to Sibelius.

I agree with Bulldog regarding Chamber Works. The String Quartets are various ensemble pieces are incredibly strong. His works for the Viola are also very enjoyable.

For me, "expert" _opinions_ are irrelevant in this matter if taken as question of who we prefer - which seems to be the case. That question is subjective, looking for our personal opinion on the music.

If it is simply who was more Nationalistic then it would be Sibelius by virtue of the fact that Bax was as heavily influenced by Irish culture as anything else.


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## AClockworkOrange (May 24, 2012)

Mal said:


> From experience, listening to a full Bax cycle is not my definition of a fun week. Maybe I just need to keep trying, and listen to other versions, but there are many other (supposedly) greater composers that I need to learn to fully appreciate first, I think.


Life is too short and you cannot force yourself to like something. Better to find something you enjoy and perhaps give Bax another try later if you ever feel the inclination. I have found a number of Composers and Compositions which have initially done little to nothing for me click for me when revisiting them later. Some don't (Arvo Pärt for one hasn't clicked with me) but many have.

I really enjoy Handley's Cycle of Symphonies but David Lloyd-Jones has an excellent cycle if you were ever looking for an alternative.


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## GAJ (Oct 15, 2016)

Certainly Sibelius.

There was a mutual admiration society operating between the two. Sibelius once said that Bax was "one of the great men of our time". Bax reportedly broke down and wept when he first heard Tapiola and subsequently put in a quotation from the work into the fourth movement of his sixth symphony.

While I have never come across a self promoting statement by Bax, Sibelius often referred to himself in his diaries as "Glorious Ego"!


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## Orfeo (Nov 14, 2013)

I'll take both or either of them depending on the mood. Part of the problem (and a big one at that) is that Bax is not as well known as Sibelius and far less promoted. But fine-inspect them closely, and you may see that they complement each other admirably. In regards to the:


*symphonies*, I find Sibelius' First, Fourth, and Fifth Symphonies better that those of Bax (although for me, the Finn's Fourth remains a rather tough nut to crack). But their Second is quite on par with each other and I find Bax's Third, Sixth and Seventh Symphonies superior to Sibelius. The Finn's Kullervo is in an universe in itself, and that's a darn good thing because of how visionary this work is. Bax's Spring Fire is white-heat stuff, and deserves more hearings than given then and now. The thing with Bax's is how extraordinary he was with development and form, the organic unity so apparent in his works (which he learned a good deal from Glazunov's examples).
*tone poems*, Sibelius reigns supreme, although I would not go without Bax's Christmas Eve, Nympholet, Garden of Fand, November Woods.
*chamber and piano music,* Bax gets the edge, hands down.
*concerto and concertante works*, I am undecided. Sibelius' Violin Concerto is an undisputed masterpiece, but I find Bax's Winter Legends and Symphonic Variations equally compelling (or perhaps, more so).
*vocal music*, I am undecided, for their uses of the voice are rewarding.
*stage works*, I take Bax's ballet "The Truth About the Russian Dancers" over Sibelius' "Maiden of the Tower" any day of the week. But Sibelius' incidental music is often rewarding, especially the gripping Jedermann (or Everyman).


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## Klassic (Dec 19, 2015)

Orfeo said:


> (although for me, the Finn's Fourth remains a rather tough nut to crack).


Listen to slow movement, wait for climax, at climax think brave heart!


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## TurnaboutVox (Sep 22, 2013)

I usually 'get into' a composer via their chamber music (Sibelius is a clear exception though). I have got to know a fair bit of Bax's chamber music over the past few years and I find much of it very rewarding if not exceptional. I have just asked for the symphonies for an upcoming birthday so I'm looking forward to some more focused listening shortly - I have heard one or two already on Spotify. 

Ask me in a few weeks - but they'd have to be really good to match Sibelius's symphonic works.


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## Orfeo (Nov 14, 2013)

Klassic said:


> Listen to slow movement, wait for climax, at climax think brave heart!


I have, but I find the symphony oddly under-developed (if I can use the word, oddly). The first movement is compelling stuff, ominous in mood, while I find the second movement "Allegro molto vivace" a fine one, though hardly more. It is the third movement (il tempo largo) that I find less than moving than expected. It is heartfelt and deep, but it has a perfunctory feel to it, as if Sibelius was holding back from making the movement more truly developed. The finale goes on well enough, but it feels out of place from the overall scheme of the work.

But turn to his Fifth Symphony, and the organic unity is the more apparent. I will continue to listen to the Fourth, for it is a fine work. But I do not find it as moving as his Kullervo, Symphonies nos. I, II, V, or VI (which is endearing and one of the works that I've been warming up to for years).


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## chalkpie (Oct 5, 2011)

Sibelius. You can put that in a Bax and wrap it up, end of discussion.


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## Kivimees (Feb 16, 2013)

I'll cast a vote for Bax - the man deserves at least one vote. There's a lot more rewarding music to be heard beyond his symphonies and tone poems. Others have already spoken positively about his chamber works. I really enjoy his violin sonatas and quartets.


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## uptempo (Oct 27, 2016)

Without doubt, Sibelius, but as I just posted elsewhere Bax has his moments. Interesting that Bax had a nordic phase, I didn't realise that until today.

I always enjoy listening to this one, some lovely shimmery instrumentation on November Woods


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## maestro267 (Jul 25, 2009)

I'm going to say Bax, because his orchestration is far more colourful. Muted brass, percussion (not just timpani), organ at times. And it packs more of a punch because of that.

I enjoy Sibelius from time to time, but it's been a struggle getting into his music. And everyone's all there like "This is the greatest music of C20" etc, and I'm here like "Nope. Can't see it, sorry."


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## chalkpie (Oct 5, 2011)

maestro267 said:


> I enjoy Sibelius from time to time, but it's been a struggle getting into his music. And everyone's all there like "This is the greatest music of C20" etc, and I'm here like "Nope. Can't see it, sorry."


I used to think the same about Sibelius. I had S1 and S6 only (Von Karajan) - very underwhelmed. One night with 'phones S4 hit me like a ton of bricks, especially the 1st and 3rd movements. I caved. I then heard all of the symphonies and his major tone poems, and I then realized how much of the Finnish landscape is embedded in the DNA of this music. Virtually overnight he became a top 20 composer, and over a few years, he easily top 5 - most likely top 3 on most days. I go MONTHS with Sibelius exclusively. I never saw this coming.


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## Jerry (Oct 17, 2016)

Bulldog said:


> Another pick for Sibelius, although I prefer the chamber music of Bax.


... and other posts.

I enjoy Bax's chamber works much more than Sibelius's.
I listened to 2 of Bax's string quartets last night, marvellous music.
Just have a quick listen to the opening of the 1st - pure English Pastoral at its considerable best!






The Bax symphonies and tone poems are a harder nut for me to crack. But I find that persistence has fine rewards.
I'm not there yet, but I am getting there.

So just because I find Sibelius superior overall, no way am I going to dismiss Bax. Both deserve a place in my collection.


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## Brahmsian Colors (Sep 16, 2016)

AClockworkOrange said:


> Life is too short and you cannot force yourself to like something. Better to find something you enjoy and perhaps give Bax another try later if you ever feel the inclination.


I like your thinking here........As for choosing between the two---Sibelius. Bax not even close for me.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Sibelius's symphonies are a carefully curated exhibit of Scandinavian furniture, each piece beautifully crafted and utterly distinctive, with clean lines and nothing overwrought or wasted. Bax's symphonies are a warehouse full of overstuffed chairs and sofas, heavily padded with constantly fluctuating harmonies and densely overlaid orchestral colors that blend together in the memory as one gigantic mass.

Bax for me is enjoyable but somehow less than the sum of too many parts. The first and third symphonies are presently my favorites of the lot. With Sibelius it's hard to pick a favorite, since each is a unique wonder, but I love most the fourth, fifth, sixth, and seventh.


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