# St. Matthew's Passion - Bach



## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

I love the B Minor Mass and have yet to listen to this work. What is a good version to listen to on Spotify (or Youtube) that I could purchase on Amazon if I enjoy it?

Thanks, and let this thread be a discussion on the work as well.


----------



## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

I'm sure you will get some good suggestions. But after you've heard an "ultimate" version, be sure to hear Klemperer's recording. It's slow, to be sure, and old school, but it wrings all the passion of this piece. If you've heard it right, you'll probably end it with a headache. 

As to the work itself, I think it's fabulous, both artistically and spiritually. Technically, the word painting is very effective. And spiritually, it's as if humanity gets to once more watch the passion, and this time, we have the right response.


----------



## wkasimer (Jun 5, 2017)

Captainnumber36 said:


> I love the B Minor Mass and have yet to listen to this work. What is a good version to listen to on Spotify (or Youtube) that I could purchase on Amazon if I enjoy it?


Which version of the B Minor Mass do you prefer? That may help narrow down the selection.


----------



## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

My Half Price Books has a version by Stephen Cleobury, I may pick that one up.


----------



## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

wkasimer said:


> Which version of the B Minor Mass do you prefer? That may help narrow down the selection.


I'm not the pickiest when it comes to interpretations, the main thing that matters to me is good sound quality. I have Klemperer's B Minor Mass and love it.


----------



## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

Old school: Klemperer or Richter
HIP: Suzuki


----------



## Ras (Oct 6, 2017)

*Good luck Captain - you sure get acquinted with a lot of music :O)*

*Richard Egarr with the Academy of Ancient Music has recoded both of Bach's Passions *they are good heartful - warm interpretations with excellent state of the art sound:














(I should add that I'm just starting to like Bach's Passions so I like the B minor mass a lot more - in fact that is one of all time favorite compositions by Bach and certainly my favorite mass of all time.)


----------



## wkasimer (Jun 5, 2017)

Captainnumber36 said:


> I'm not the pickiest when it comes to interpretations, the main thing that matters to me is good sound quality. I have Klemperer's B Minor Mass and love it.


Since I'm decidedly not a fan of Klemperer's Bach, I'm not a good source of recommendations for you. That said, you might want to dip into whatever is available on Spotify, because the array of choices for this work is mind-boggling.


----------



## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

I got the one I mentioned above from Half Price Books, excellent sound.


----------



## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

In terms of how to perform it, there’s a lot of dispute about whether Bach really wrote it for small forces or large. Some people have argued that he tended to use small forces when he was working in Leipzig, even though a large choir was clearly at his disposal. Anyone exploring the Passion really should have a listen to a OVPP recording, because it makes an enormous difference.

In my experience a performance of this really demands a good evangelist. The best evangelist I have ever heard is a tenor called Rufus Müller, I think he made a recording of it, I’m not sure. But reaction to voice is clearly a personal thing . . .


----------



## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Captainnumber36 said:


> My Half Price Books has a version by Stephen Cleobury, I may pick that one up.


It'll be interesting to see how well you like British cathedral choirs, many people adore the sound they make. I don't know the KCC one very well. What I'm really saying is that if you feel a bit let down by it, it may be worth trying another approach.


----------



## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

Mandryka said:


> In terms of how to perform it, there's a lot of dispute about whether Bach really wrote it for small forces or large. Some people have argued that he tended to use small forces when he was working in Leipzig, even though a large choir was clearly at his disposal. Anyone exploring the Passion really should have a listen to a OVPP recording, because it makes an enormous difference.
> 
> In my experience a performance of this really demands a good evangelist. The best evangelist I have ever heard is a tenor called Rufus Müller, I think he made a recording of it, I'm not sure. But reaction to voice is clearly a personal thing . . .


Right now I'm trying to build a collection of as many diverse Classical works as possible by various composers. I'll get to the point where I start investigating multiple interpretations of works and collect ones that are strikingly different from ones I already own.


----------



## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Captainnumber36 said:


> Right now I'm trying to build a collection of as many diverse Classical works as possible by various composers. I'll get to the point where I start investigating multiple interpretations of works and collect ones that are strikingly different from ones I already own.


Yes, it's a shame you can't use a streaming service though.


----------



## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

Mandryka said:


> Yes, it's a shame you can't use a streaming service though.


I could, I just choose not to.


----------



## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

My favored version is Herreweghe's first on Harmonia Mundi.


----------



## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

One difference I'm picking up on as I listen to this is that there are several more solo vocal portions in the St. Matthew's Passion as opposed to the B minor Mass.


----------



## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Captainnumber36 said:


> One difference I'm picking up on as I listen to this is that there are several more solo vocal portions in the St. Matthew's Passion as opposed to the B minor Mass.


And more than in the St John Passion I think. The Matthew Passion works well staged like an opera.


----------



## wkasimer (Jun 5, 2017)

Mandryka said:


> It'll be interesting to see how well you like British cathedral choirs, many people adore the sound they make. I don't know the KCC one very well. What I'm really saying is that if you feel a bit let down by it, it may be worth trying another approach.


I have an aversion to boy choristers, and I'm not crazy about the solo vocalism on the Cleobury recording.

One version I always enjoy hearing is Rilling's on Hanssler - it uses modern instruments, but fairly brisk tempos (unlike Klemperer's, which are marmoreal), and the solo singing is superb.


----------



## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

There are parts of the Matthew Passion that remind me of Simon and Garfunkel's song "American Tune". Paul must have borrowed from this piece!


----------



## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

Captainnumber36 said:


> There are parts of the Matthew Passion that remind me of Simon and Garfunkel's song "American Tune". Paul must have borrowed from this piece!


It's a Paul Simon solo song by the way, and Bach based it himself on an older tune (link).


----------



## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

Art Rock said:


> It's a Paul Simon solo song by the way, and Bach based it himself on an older tune (link).


Wow, I'm proud of my ear for picking up on that! Thanks for the information and correction.


----------



## Eusebius12 (Mar 22, 2010)

Gardiner brings a lot of intensity to both Passions, which are virtually equal in musical value, that is to say, the highest musical value in the history of known music. I prefer him in the passions to the Mass, his driven urgency seems more fit to the somewhat operatic nature of these works rather than the repose required in parts of the Mass.


----------



## Eusebius12 (Mar 22, 2010)

Captainnumber36 said:


> Wow, I'm proud of my ear for picking up on that! Thanks for the information and correction.


Like Tears from Heaven by Clapton (actually by Elgar- Sea Pictures-Sea Slumber Song)


----------



## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

This is for me one of the very greatest works in Western music with multiple choirs and soloists.
Avoid the Klemperer - it is far too slow. Bach would not have recognised it. At the other end the McCreesh is recorded on the dubious 'one-a-part' theory so avoid that too.
If you want an old style recording then try Richter's FIRST version with Haeflinger as evangelist. Much to be preferred to his later remake. I also have Karajan when I want to indulge in more romantic Bach. The soloists are superb.
To HIP I have Gardiner, Herreweghe 1, Harnoncourt's last version and Jacobs. All have their virtues but the safest bet is Harnoncourt probably. Really superb.


----------



## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

Eusebius12 said:


> Like Tears from Heaven by Clapton (actually by Elgar- Sea Pictures-Sea Slumber Song)


I hear vague similarities from time to time, but that's all. The Paul Simon song uses the exact melody (and attributes it to German composer Hans Leo Hassler, 1564-1612.


----------



## Eusebius12 (Mar 22, 2010)

The melody is the same as the music that accompanies the words, 'Like a mother mild. Hush now oh my child'


----------



## premont (May 7, 2015)

Mandryka said:


> In my experience a performance of this really demands a good evangelist. The best evangelist I have ever heard is a tenor called Rufus Müller, I think he made a recording of it, I'm not sure. But reaction to voice is clearly a personal thing . . .


https://www.amazon.com/St-Matthew-P...pID=513NuV7Th-L&preST=_SY300_QL70_&dpSrc=srch


----------



## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

The work is the equal of, but could hardly be more different to, the Mass. It says a lot about what Bach was capable of that he could produce both.

I second the suggestion of Klemperer's despite its slowness: it is a classic with some legendary singers in fine voice. I also like McCreesh - his recordings are nearly always well prepared and interesting/provocative: he chose to record this passion with very small forces (he sometimes goes the other way) and it works well, I think. But as a first recommendation I second the suggestion of Harnoncourt. His second (I think) recording, the one with Christine Schäfer, Dorothea Röschmann and Bernarda Fink among the soloists, is astounding but his other recording is also well thought of.


----------



## wkasimer (Jun 5, 2017)

DavidA said:


> If you want an old style recording then try Richter's FIRST version with Haeflinger as evangelist. Much to be preferred to his later remake.


I'm one of the few people who prefer the later recording, made a year before Richter's death. The 1959 recording is one of those "classics" whose glories simply escape me. Haefliger is fine,. as is DFD, but the two women are really not competitive, and the alto solos are important to me. They're sung by Janet Baker on the later recording - enough said.


----------



## Euler (Dec 3, 2017)

Captainnumber36 said:


> I love the B Minor Mass and have yet to listen to this work. What is a good version to listen to on Spotify (or Youtube) that I could purchase on Amazon if I enjoy it?


For the alto parts do you prefer boys, countertenors or contraltos? In Bach's day they'd most likely be adult males, though their voices hadn't necessarily broken (male voices didn't break until late teens back then).
Sadly very few St Matthew recordings use boy altos; there are plenty in St John and the Mass in B minor.


----------



## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

wkasimer said:


> I'm one of the few people who prefer the later recording, made a year before Richter's death. The 1959 recording is one of those "classics" whose glories simply escape me. Haefliger is fine,. as is DFD, but the two women are really not competitive, and the alto solos are important to me. They're sung by Janet Baker on the later recording - enough said.


The problem with the second one is that Richter had broadened his tempi so they are almost Klemperer like


----------



## larold (Jul 20, 2017)

There are two English language versions -- one traditional and one period performance -- you may wish to consider. The older one, led by David Willcocks, is much better sung and paced in my opinion. Jeffrey Skidmore leads the newer period version.


----------



## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

This was the performance which had a huge impact on me, a BBC production, minimally staged, directed by Jonathan Miller.






If anyone can find the rest of it, I'd love to see it again.


----------



## premont (May 7, 2015)

The CDs on the link I posted above (post 27) contain the sound of this recording.


----------



## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

premont said:


> The CDs on the link I posted above (post 27) contain the sound of this recording.


Yes but the production is what made it so memorable for me.


----------



## premont (May 7, 2015)

Mandryka said:


> Yes but the production is what made it so memorable for me.


Yes I know, because I have seen the DVD many years ago in DR. I agree that the simplistic staging and the way the soloists emerge from the choirs is most impressive. I am afraid, that the DVD is OOP since long. I have searched at AMP sellers, but without luck.


----------

