# Another Newcomer with some questions...



## Underdog (Jan 29, 2014)

Hello 

ive just recently developed an interest in classical music. I listened to a lot of electronic music beforehand.

I would like to have some tips how to discover the wide varity of classical music. Are there good books? Im really interested in history, too. Would you stuck with one composer for the start? Would you listen to one Era?

The only thing i know is that i really like Air of J.S. Bach (its very chilled, i like the progression, its not to cheesy and i like the "things" that appear in the back of the song), the moonlight sonata (i like kind the melancholy in this) and the Fneral March of Chopin (its the melancholy again... i only knew the first few bars of the song but this is amazing).

I dont like singing in Classical Music, on the other side i sometimes have the feelin Chopin gets kind of boring if i listen to it to long because its "only" piano.

I hope this is enough to give me some Tips. I would really appriciate your thougts on this issue 

Greetings

Underdog


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## Fortinbras Armstrong (Dec 29, 2013)

The problem is that it's like asking "I've just discovered reading, what books do you recommend?" Classical music covers literally thousands of pieces written over the last several centuries. To go back to my analogy with books, there are multiple genres that appeal to different people: I like fantasy and science fiction, but my wife has no interest in either -- she likes mysteries. Similarly there are differing tastes in music: My middle son loves Bob Dylan, but his singing voice is fingernails on a blackboard to me. (Yet I really like Warren Zevon, who does not appeal to my son.)

I loathe atonal music, there are multiple threads here for fans of atonal music. I adore Mozart, there is a thread about Mozart started by a man who finds his music "unemotional". I have stated the heretical opinion that much of J. S. Bach is simply boring.

You pays your money and you takes your choice.


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## Underdog (Jan 29, 2014)

Okay, i try to work with your analogy.

When someone just learned reading and asked me what book he should read, i would tell him the best known genres. Like Fantasy, Crime Novels etc. - and then i could tell him some authors so he could check if he likes it on is own. Maybe you could do something similiar? I dont want the ultimate guide to classical music, only some advices on how to start/what to read 

Greetings

Underdog


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## Winterreisender (Jul 13, 2013)

If you are interested in the history of classical music, you might want to quickly overcome your aversion to vocal music, because it was with sacred vocal music that it all began. Choral music is a nice way to ease is gently.

Before you get into reading too much about classical music, it is probably best getting to know a few more pieces, ideally whole pieces. Why not listen to Beethoven's 5th Symphony, or Mozart's Clarinet Concerto, or Bach's Brandenburg Concerto? If you want something with singing, try Handel's Messiah. They were among the pieces which introduced me to classical music.


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## Underdog (Jan 29, 2014)

Okay, i ordered Beethovens Symphony Nos. 5 and 7 - can anyone tell me whats with the 6, or is this question too stupid ?


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## Winterreisender (Jul 13, 2013)

Underdog said:


> Okay, i ordered Beethovens Symphony Nos. 5 and 7 - can anyone tell me whats with the 6, or is this question too stupid ?


Good choice! The 6th is many people's favourite Beethoven symphony (mine included!). It is subtitled the "Pastoral Symphony" because it aims to evoke scenes in nature, such as a gentle river, birds singing, a violent storm, peasants dancing. You should definitely order the 6th as well!


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## Fortinbras Armstrong (Dec 29, 2013)

Yes, try some of the classics. Beethoven's Fifth Symphony is a good place to start. Here's an old chestnut that exemplifies "Program Music" -- music which makes you see a particular scene -- better than most: Suppe's Light Cavalry Overture, in which you can hear the cavalry charge






Winterreisender suggested sacred vocal music. Here is a bit from Mozart's Great Mass in C, the Laudamus Te. (It is said that the soloist in the first performance was Mozart's wife, Constanze.) Incidentally, I suspect that Winterreisender took his or her user name from Franz Schubert's Winterreise, a song cycle which I do not recommend to the neophyte, especially if you do not speak German.






Speaking of Mozart, one thing you might do is watch a DVD of the movie Amadeus. It will give you an excellent introduction to Mozart's music, fairly painlessly. The IMDb entry for the film will give you a complete playlist.

There are more I could suggest: Vivaldi's Four Seasons (I particularly like the first movement of Winter and the way it builds and then resolves tension), Bach's Brandenburg Concerti (which he wrote in hopes of getting a job with the Margrave of Brandenburg, but wasn't hired), Rossini's comic operas are fun and the overtures to them are enjoyable. You say you like Beethoven's Moonlight Sonata, so try some of his other piano pieces. And so on.


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## Underdog (Jan 29, 2014)

I ordered the 5th and 7th on one cd, played by the Vienna Philarmonics, i just wondered why the 6th doesnt appear on that cd.

Thank you very much that helped. I will order the 6th as well


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## Vesteralen (Jul 14, 2011)

Beethoven's 5th and 7th symphonies have no real context you have to concern yourself with. The 6th, on the other hand, is called the "Pastoral" and Beethoven himself provided information on what each movement in it "represents". It's what later came to be known as "Program Music" - music written to describe a story or a scene. This symphony may actually be easier for some newcomers to appreciate for that reason.

Some of the very first classical pieces I got to know were opera related, but non-vocal: Rossini's Overtures and instrumental suites from the opera "Carmen" by Bizet. They are lots of fun and easy to "get". If you like them, maybe later on you could try the vocal parts of those operas as well.

But, as said before, there are no guarantees with recommendations. One man's "A Day in the Life" is another man's "Snoopy vs. the Red Baron"......


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Underdog said:


> Okay, i ordered Beethovens Symphony Nos. 5 and 7 - can anyone tell me whats with the 6, or is this question too stupid ?


I love the 6th. There are some great recordings, of course. Try Klemperer with Philarmonia for a slower reading or Karajan (1977) for a more up-tempo.


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## TxllxT (Mar 2, 2011)

Bach's Air & Chopin's Funeral March: I guess you're a heavy-romantic-slow-movement-lover. Perhaps you might give a try to the symphonies of Mahler & Bruckner, but start listening to the slow movements only. Slowly, slowly but surely you'll find your way


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## Underdog (Jan 29, 2014)

TxllxT said:


> Bach's Air & Chopin's Funeral March: I guess you're a heavy-romantic-slow-movement-lover. Perhaps you might give a try to the symphonies of Mahler & Bruckner, but start listening to the slow movements only. Slowly, slowly but surely you'll find your way


Could you recommend some movements ?


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

Mendelssohn's symphonies 3 and 4 should be easy to like.
And Mozart's 40 and 41.


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## Fortinbras Armstrong (Dec 29, 2013)

TxllxT said:


> Bach's Air & Chopin's Funeral March: I guess you're a heavy-romantic-slow-movement-lover. Perhaps you might give a try to the symphonies of Mahler & Bruckner, but start listening to the slow movements only. Slowly, slowly but surely you'll find your way


If you are a romantic slow movement lover, then the second movement of Dvorak's Ninth Symphony might be to your liking


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## Underdog (Jan 29, 2014)

Thank you all. This seems to be a very great and friendly community.

I really liked this on my first "listentrough" (more than the new world symphony)


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## Fortinbras Armstrong (Dec 29, 2013)

I'm pleased you found something you like. Keep looking.


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## Kevin Pearson (Aug 14, 2009)

Welcome to the site Underdog! As has been stated above there is a LOT to explore in classical music. I would suggest that if you don't already you should subscribe to Spotify. It's only $9.99 a month for desktop AND mobile service commercial free at 320kb. That's near CD quality. They literally have thousands of classical albums and it will cheaply provide you with a way to sample music before buying. That eliminates the risk factor that you may not like a piece. 

Secondly, I have mentioned this book elsewhere on the board for newbies to Classical, but it is a book written by Paul G. Goulding called "Classical Music - The 50 Greatest Composers and Their 1,000 Greatest Works. Goulding writes as one discovering classical music for the first time and makes it easy enough for a layman to understand. It's only around 600 pages and can be found on Amazon for inexpensively. It is an invaluable too for beginners in my opinion. 

I hope you enjoy your journey of discovery. It's a fascinating genre of music and one I have not tired of in 40 years of listening.

Kevin


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## MCExpo (Jan 29, 2014)

Good morning, good sir! I too have developed an interest in classical music relatively recently. My interest was sparked when I started listening to the local WETA Classical Music station. You may or may not have a classical music radio station provider, but you can listen to Classical WETA live if you want on their website; http://www.weta.org/fm/listenlive
The website provide information on what has, is, and will be playing at any time. It really made me expand my knowledge in classical, and I've purchased some CDs and out-of-print pieces as well, thanks to them. I highly suggest this if you'd like to expand your variety. Good luck, my friend!
Reguards, Jacob


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## TxllxT (Mar 2, 2011)

Underdog said:


> Could you recommend some movements ?


3rd Symphony - Langsam-Ruhevoll-Empfunden (Slowly, tranquil, deeply felt): 




5th Symphony - Adagietto:


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

If you have the time and inclination to acquire 
_The Penguin History of Western Music_, I heartily recommend it. It comes in tow relatively paperback editions which I think would not be very expensive.

Volume I starts, with what can only be supposition, far back in time, It then succinctly and quickly moves through folk, some ethnic music (from other lands). By the end of book one -- if memory serves -- you are up to and through the middle ages, ready for Book II and the early renaissance to present. Both volumes are of moderate length.

Those Penguin books are aimed exactly at readers with no real background in music studies at all, so to read them does not need prerequisites before you can readily understand them. I think I remember they are far less dense "information per paragraph" than more pedantic books, textbook, encyclopediae, etc. so they were nearly as readable as 'a story.' The fact they 'put it all' in a timeline perspective, and not as "brutally" than a typical textbook, makes them a very pleasurable read.

Later, if you are reading an article in the Groves or the Larousse tome on music and musicians, you will have a sense of perspective and some bit of familiarity with the different eras.

Online, the Dolmetsch Dictionary of music (gratis) is one of your best friends for musical terms and definitions -- including all those which are found in music but in three or more languages. I would add owning a real copy of _The Harvard Dictionary of Music_ as well; I think it a must-have.

http://www.dolmetsch.com/musictheorydefs.htm

Dolmetsch also has (gratis) an online music history source which I have not looked into, but do have a look at it.

*The New Grove Dictionary of Music and Musicians* _and - or_ *Larousse Encyclopedia of Music* are both fine, about equal 'fine' and it should not surprise that the English volume is a titch imbalanced with numbers of English composers and musicians, while the French volume does the same where it comes to the French.

Whatever you own, I would purchase one copy, even second hand, marked up and dog-eared, of a relatively recent Harvad Dicitonary for Music.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

If it's books, the Rough Guide to classical music is a really good introduction. The Rough Guide to Opera is even better.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Fortinbras Armstrong said:


> Y
> 
> [
> 
> Speaking of Mozart, one thing you might do is watch a DVD of the movie Amadeus. It will give you an excellent introduction to Mozart's music, fairly painlessly. The IMDb entry for the film will give you a complete playlist.


One thing though. Don't treat it as history. It's largely fiction!


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## ShropshireMoose (Sep 2, 2013)

Welcome to the forum and the wonderful world of classical music! Overtures are a good way to get into the music nicely. My two favourites when young were Nicolai's Overture "The Merry Wives of Windsor" and the overture to Wagner's "The Mastersingers." Ballet music is good too, that from Gounod's "Faust" has plenty of contrasting moods. The first long piece I really took to was Rimsky-Korsakov's "Scheherazade", this has plenty of interesting story accompanying it, and with Rimsky's brilliant orchestration, it's very easy to follow. I wish you all the best in your voyage of discovery of this most fascinating of arts.


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## bigshot (Nov 22, 2011)

I wonder at what point it is for most classical music listeners when they graduate from "I don't like singing and piano only is boring" to appreciation of these particular forms? For me, it was within a year or two. Maybe less.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

You can't go wrong with Beethoven. Try the Eroica (3rd Symphony), Appassionata piano sonata, the Fidelio overture. If you listen to Beethoven's Ninth you may get infected with a like for vocal music (4th movement) like I did. Think of vocal as another musical instrument.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

bigshot said:


> I wonder at what point it is for most classical music listeners when they graduate from "I don't like singing and piano only is boring" to appreciation of these particular forms? For me, it was within a year or two. Maybe less.


I hated singing in classical music until one day I just went over the top and then didn't want anything without singing. Beethoven's Ninth really was my first singing classical work, followed by Beethoven's Choral Fantasy with the beautiful voices in the last part and of course I always liked Handel's Messiah. I had a hard time taking in choral music as it frequently sounded all garbled to me, but now I love all of it, solos, duets, .... choral.

How long did it take is a tough question because I delved into classical in the 1970s and 1980s, but the only vocal I would tolerate at the time was the Ninth and Messiah. Then I did not return to classical until about 2011 and was adamant that no other vocal would be on my player, but by 2012 is when I went totally over to vocal and now (literally this very week) am just starting to dip back into pure instrumental works. At one point I went pure piano for several months too.


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## mmsbls (Mar 6, 2011)

It's always hard to suggest composers or works as others have said. Since we don't know you, one assumption is that you will be roughly like many others in your tastes. Some people at TalkClassical have enjoyed "voting" on our favorite works in various genres (symphonies, concertos, operas, etc.). These collective lists appear here. You might enjoy browsing these lists and seeing if they are helpful. There are a large number of works listed so maybe just start with the top works and see how you like them. If the lists help, you can just continue to sample from them.


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## Richannes Wrahms (Jan 6, 2014)

Give this a try, it may instantly change your relationship with vocal music forever:


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Richannes Wrahms said:


> Give this a try, it may instantly change your relationship with vocal music forever:


I must confess I find this symphony a total bore!


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## TurnaboutVox (Sep 22, 2013)

DavidA said:


> I must confess I find this symphony a total bore!


I'm sure that underdog (and other new members) will quickly get the idea that TC members differ in their tastes and distastes! I think the best advice is - try things, try different things.

I have been wondering what kind of electronic music you have been listening to, and therefore what kinds of musical sounds are already familiar to you? Knowing that might help in suggesting entry points for classical music.


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## Underdog (Jan 29, 2014)

TurnaboutVox said:


> I have been wondering what kind of electronic music you have been listening to, and therefore what kinds of musical sounds are already familiar to you? Knowing that might help in suggesting entry points for classical music.


Well, very different stuff. On the one side a lot of drum n bass, like pendulum or nu:tone. On the other side as well music with great progression, like deadmau5s closer or strobe.

@Richannes Wrahms: Nope. I HATE the voices. I really dont like choirs or any classical singing like that. its to high, i really get a headache because of it. i really dont think my mind will change about this. its because i really really hate it (i dont know why ). Thanks anyway!

I think i really like sad pieces of work... Or at least melancholic.


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## starry (Jun 2, 2009)

You really need a stickied advice thread with information for people new to classical music as the recommended list that people have been assembling for months doesn't seem of any use to them. They use this forum as their first point of call as it comes up first on google, so you need to cater for this better here.


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## Guest (Jan 30, 2014)

starry said:


> You really need a stickied advice thread with information for people new to classical music as the recommended list that people have been assembling for months doesn't seem of any use to them. They use this forum as their first point of call as it comes up first on google, so you need to cater for this better here.


Something along the lines you suggest surely needs to be done. It hardly makes sense for newcomers to feel that the only way they can obtain basic advice on where to start with classical music is to plonk a thread in the main discussion area, when the same question, or ones very similar, have been raised hundreds of times previously, all with similar answers and some with useful suggestions. It seems like re-inventing the wheel several times each week.

If were a newcomer to classical music, and to this Forum, I would find it useful to have an area called something like "Noobs Corner", or similar, which can be easily spotted. It might have something like following rubric: _"This area of the Forum is primarily for people are new, or nearly new, to classical music. It is mainly a collection of past threads by other newcomers, in which advice and suggestions have been provided. You might like to browse through some of these threads to see whether your possible questions may already have been dealt with."_

I doubt that it wouldn't be a difficult task for a moderator to assemble a representative selection of the best of such past threads, say about 30, in which T-C's members have made various suggestions on the best ways to start and build up a collection. I have seen dozens of these things raised over the past couple of years or so. Some of these threads have referred to various external classical music sites where very decent looking starter-type lists have been created.

Personally, I don't think that any of the "T-C Recommended ..." threads would be of much interest to newcomers. The various works listed in those threads are the kind of thing that is more likely to appeal to more experienced listeners. The sort of material that is far more likely to appeal to newcomers is Sibelius' Finlandia, Suppe's overtures, Mendelssohn's Hebrides overture, Beethoven's Moonlight Sonata, Vivaldi's 4 Seasons, Ravel's Bolero, Bach's Toccata and Fugue in D minor, Mozart's Flute & Harp Concerto, etc. It be would very easy to knock up a list of 100 such works very quickly, but why bother when it's all been done many times before? It is all that kind of stuff that some of us (including me) probably listened to and thought wonderful (which of course it still is) earlier on.


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

If you know little of it, you can not know 'what you like,' yet, but only what little you know you do like.

Go to the composer's timeline from the main article on classical music in Wikipedia, make note of a name, look for some of their music on youtube and give it at least a momentary whirl.

I would think you would want to sample and taste it all, in bits, to survey and look around for yourself. 

Knowing, most generally, the lay of the land is also helful in your finding you r way about and in better figuring our right now, that which most appeals to you.

Rough guides, and all that will certainly list "the most usual suspects" and the usual suspects list will have many great composers on it whose music you will probably like to some degree or another.

Top 100 lists, rough guides, etc. may miss about, oh, one to two hundred more composers and as many works as you may also find wonderful.

How you go about it, finding 'like' the little you know, chronological through history, or find the big dining room and smorgasbord way your through it, is up to you.


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## Vesteralen (Jul 14, 2011)

If all else fails, you can do what I do sometimes....buy a CD with great cover art so you have something nice to look at while you listen.


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## Yardrax (Apr 29, 2013)

bigshot said:


> I wonder at what point it is for most classical music listeners when they graduate from "I don't like singing and piano only is boring" to appreciation of these particular forms? For me, it was within a year or two. Maybe less.


I never had that problem so I don't think it is a universal experience. And I have met people who've gone as far as studying composition who _still_ don't care for vocal music (This confuses me as well).


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## Fortinbras Armstrong (Dec 29, 2013)

TurnaboutVox said:


> I have been wondering what kind of electronic music you have been listening to, and therefore what kinds of musical sounds are already familiar to you? Knowing that might help in suggesting entry points for classical music.


This made me think of Wendy Carlos (AKA Walter Carlos before the sex change) and Bach on the synthesizer. Here's a sample


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## Avey (Mar 5, 2013)

Partita said:


> Personally, I don't think that any of the "T-C Recommended ..." threads would be of much interest to newcomers. The various works listed in those threads are the kind of thing that is more likely to appeal to more experienced listeners. The sort of material that is far more likely to appeal to newcomers is Sibelius' Finlandia, Suppe's overtures, Mendelssohn's Hebrides overture, Beethoven's Moonlight Sonata, Vivaldi's 4 Seasons, Ravel's Bolero, Bach's Toccata and Fugue in D minor, Mozart's Flute & Harp Concerto, etc. It be would very easy to knock up a list of 100 such works very quickly, but why bother when it's all been done many times before? It is all that kind of stuff that some of us (including me) probably listened to and thought wonderful (which of course it still is) earlier on.


Totally disagree with this. I stumbled across this thread many years ago (before I started contributing), and being the prudent and shrewd observer I am, I immediately went to the TC Recommended threads. It's a list of the top recommended pieces! Where else would you want to go for...recommendations?! It even explicitly states on the opening thread: "...may be used as reference points for both newcomers and long-time classical listeners to the world of classical music and to specific areas of classical music as defined by these lists."

The most popular classical pieces are at the top -- not just for "experienced" listeners, but generally, the public. Ask any casual classical music fan and you'll likely hear the _Ninth_, _Eroica_, _Jupiter_, _New World_, _Tristan and Isolde_, Mendelssohn's _Violin Concerto_, Mozart's _Piano Concerti_, etc. etc. There is a reason these top the lists: most people _like_ these pieces. A newcomer would be no different, or in the least, this is exactly where they should start should they have an interest to begin listening to classical genres but don't know where to begin.

I'm not sure why _Finlandia_ or _Hebrides Overture_, or Mozart's _Flute and Harp Concerto_ are _more_ welcoming to newcomers than what is currently on the TOP RECOMMENDED LIST. These are arbitrary choices. At least the lists have a foundation with general consensus.

Posting another "recommend me something" thread either means (1) you didn't choose to look at the TOP RECOMMENDED THREAD on the top of the main forum page, or (2) if you did see the thread, and just ignored it, suggests you feel your musical tastes are wholly unique, and want novel recommendations to accommodate your intrigue with classical music. The latter is lame, especially when one doesn't even bother to try some of those top works and comment on those, so we're able to help out in some capacity. Rather, that individual says he hates this, won't hear that, likes this single movement, wants something like that -- it appears this is an issue he/she must solve on their own, and our recommendations won't help _that_ newcomer regardless.


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## Guest (Jan 30, 2014)

Avey said:


> Totally disagree with this. etc


If you care to glance back at what I wrote, I was mainly agreeing with "Starry" that it would be helpful to raise awareness somehow or other, for those newcomers to this Forum looking for advice on basic starter listening material, to be pointed towards the relevant areas of the Board, rather than raise threads willy-nilly in the main discussion area that ask the same question and attract the same type of answers all the time.

If you reckon that it is obvious where these "recommended lists" are located, and that they contain all the advice that any newcomer could require, I will not attempt to argue with you. All I said was that, in my opinion, for some people who are virtually complete novices in classical music, I do not think they will necessarily find that those lists provide all that they may require.

I was not suggesting creating any alternative lists, as you wrongly imply in your post. The examples I gave of works that may appeal were mere top of the head examples of the kind of material that might be more appealing to someone who is completely new. Nor did I suggest where people might obtain further information. The T-C lists could be among them. I only implied that in previous threads of similar nature various external reference sites containing very much shorter and simpler lists of starter material have been referred to.


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