# Magma/Christian Vander



## Denerah Bathory (6 mo ago)

As a teenager much classical music was introduced in my life through progressive rock groups, mostly Emerson Lake and Palmer since Piano/Keyboards are my performing instrument. However, I find I still prefer the freer sonata form of composition, and would certainly not write in a verse/chorus/bridge format, as I find this tends to lock a composition into a rigid tonal center and the whole piece becomes a monotonous copy/paste of such sections.

This is where an appreciation of Magma comes in. This French prog-rock group started in 1969 and combine jazz, Stravinsky, Orff and operatic phrasing. Each album is a multi-movement composition and we easily-observe the hallmarks of traditional composition played by a modern jazz-rock ensemble. Some describe it as Coltrane meets Carmina Burana.

The last statement likely encompasses the use of a "fictional" language called Kobaian, a phonetic and highly-monosyllabic chanting in minor keys in parallel motion. I personally find it resembles a mixture of "langue d'oil" (old french), German, and Polish. This, of course, expresses the saga of humans escaping earthly apocalypse and settling on a distant planet, and who inspire "prophets" to transmit their gospel to a struggling humanity.

This Wagnerian proportion of epic composition and cosmic heroism makes for an engaging listen for sure. I also think that it would be interesting to write an opera in a non-human or "spiritually-channeled" language, using the Voice as Timbre and Tone rather than restrict its utterance to purely literal meaning. 

RECOMMENDED RECORDINGS: Mekanik Destruktiw Kommandoh, 1001 Degres Centigrade, Retrospektiw Volumes 1-3


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## NoCoPilot (Nov 9, 2020)

Magma has been discussed before. Odd that you choose to like Magma, while at the same time complaining about repetitiveness in music. To my ears, Magma is less a cross between Carmina Burana and Coltrane, and more of a cross between Tuvan throat singing, Steve Reich and Native American drum circles, with maybe a little of David Fanshawe's "African Sanctus" thrown in. The whole "made up language" thing and the silly consumes put me off before I ever heard a note.

By the way? I think most opera listeners hear the singing as meaningless syllables. Unless they happen to speak the source language.


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## Jay (Jul 21, 2014)

Denerah Bathory said:


> RECOMMENDED RECORDINGS: Mekanik Destruktiw Kommandoh, 1001 Degres Centigrade, Retrospektiw Volumes 1-3


....and Kohntarkoz; Live/Hhai; Udu Wudu


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## NoCoPilot (Nov 9, 2020)

Jay said:


> ....Üdü Wüdü


Did I mention the excessive use of ümläüts?


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## Denerah Bathory (6 mo ago)

NoCoPilot said:


> Magma has been discussed before. Odd that you choose to like Magma, while at the same time complaining about repetitiveness in music. To my ears, Magma is less a cross between Carmina Burana and Coltrane, and more of a cross between Tuvan throat singing, Steve Reich and Native American drum circles, with maybe a little of David Fanshawe's "African Sanctus" thrown in. The whole "made up language" thing and the silly consumes put me off before I ever heard a note.
> 
> By the way? I think most opera listeners hear the singing as meaningless syllables. Unless they happen to speak the source language.


In this case the repetitive element to Magma's music is more of a mantra or incantation, so this works fine for me, and even then we observe repetition of "blocks" that have no priority over one another, they are self-contained musical segments capable of appearing at any given moment later on--which is how I write, in "cellular" format, using motivic elements in varying orders or sequences based on neighboring keys.

What I find limiting is the more popular format of "verse/chorus" seen in anything from Iron Maiden to Lady Gaga. Note that here I am not saying I dislike it in other artists' works, but I personally am not inclined to write that as I find it uninspiring. I could also do without guitar solos, I'd rather see distinct sections like in Tarkus or Supper's Ready than noodling.

I like long songs, as long as they're good! In other words, I wouldn't sit through 30 minutes of "rave music".

And that was exactly my point about opera: most people rely on subtitles to understand the dialogue, so it doesn't matter what language you're using, you can just insert Kobaian and tack on your own "subtitles" later hehe It's wonderful, that way you're not compromising musical structure for grammatically-correct utterance


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## Denerah Bathory (6 mo ago)

NoCoPilot said:


> Did I mention the excessive use of ümläüts?


Umaluts make any word look cool. That being said, I wonder how many Germans were confused by the pronunciation of Motley Crue and Motorhead back in the day


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## NoCoPilot (Nov 9, 2020)

Denerah Bathory said:


> In this case the repetitive element to Magma's music is more of a mantra or incantation, so this works fine for me, and even then we observe repetition of "blocks" that have no priority over one another, they are self-contained musical segments capable of appearing at any given moment later on--which is how I write, in "cellular" format, using motivic elements in varying orders or sequences based on neighboring keys.


 What what whatever ever ever ever boat boat boat float float float whatever ever ever ever floats whatever floats floats floats floats your boat boat boat boat.


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## Denerah Bathory (6 mo ago)

NoCoPilot said:


> What what whatever ever ever ever boat boat boat float float float whatever ever ever ever floats whatever floats floats floats floats your boat boat boat boat.


If you're not going to provide valuable insights on this thread, then go elsewhere. I made this post for serious discussion of Magma's music, I find your behavior better suited to FB or 4chan for that matter.


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## NoCoPilot (Nov 9, 2020)

Sorry about that. I have trouble taking your posts seriously when you compare Magma to Stravinsky or Wagner. I think that's elevating Magma a little above their station....

You never replied whether you're familiar with this. To my ear, Christian Vander must have been.


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## Denerah Bathory (6 mo ago)

Jay said:


> ....and Kohntarkoz; Live/Hhai; Udu Wudu


Although Theusz Hamtaak is much better than Udu Wudu personally. Although lacking the female chorus, I was close to recommending Wurdah Itah as essential, but not comprehensive of their style


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## Jay (Jul 21, 2014)

Denerah Bathory said:


> Although Theusz Hamtaak is much better than Udu Wudu personally.


"De Futura" recommends Udu Wudu.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

I have a grey label 2 - fer CD with Udu Wudu, and another album. Haven't listened to it in years. I remember it sounding a bit jazzy. Will have to locate it for a re-visit.


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## Simon Moon (Oct 10, 2013)

Denerah Bathory said:


> In this case the repetitive element to Magma's music is more of a mantra or incantation, so this works fine for me, and even then we observe repetition of "blocks" that have no priority over one another, they are self-contained musical segments capable of appearing at any given moment later on--which is how I write, in "cellular" format, using motivic elements in varying orders or sequences based on neighboring keys.
> 
> What I find limiting is the more popular format of "verse/chorus" seen in anything from Iron Maiden to Lady Gaga. Note that here I am not saying I dislike it in other artists' works, but I personally am not inclined to write that as I find it uninspiring. I could also do without guitar solos, I'd rather see distinct sections like in Tarkus or Supper's Ready than noodling.
> 
> ...


I think you pretty much nailed it.

In addition, even during the periods where they are repetitive, they have a great way of building tension, by playing with dynamics, interspersing other passages with the repetitive passages, trading solos, etc.

I saw them 4 times in LA in the last 20 years, and every time, when they get to the end of a piece, it seems they have built so much tension and emotion, that the only thing left for them to do, is explode on stage!

And about the made up language, it is pretty sophisticated. Not as sophisticated as an evolved language, but certainly enough to (if one cares to look at Kobian to English dictionaries online), to get the concepts.


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## Simon Moon (Oct 10, 2013)

Denerah Bathory said:


> Although Theusz Hamtaak is much better than Udu Wudu personally. Although lacking the female chorus, I was close to recommending Wurdah Itah as essential, but not comprehensive of their style


K.A. is also right up there with their best.


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## Simon Moon (Oct 10, 2013)

starthrower said:


> I have a grey label 2 - fer CD with Udu Wudu, and another album. Haven't listened to it in years. I remember it sounding a bit jazzy. Will have to locate it for a re-visit.


Christian Vander is a Coltrane fanatic. And it doesn't take too much work to hear Coltrane's influence in Magma, probably more the earlier stuff than the latest.

But yeah, Magma has always had musicians with legitimate jazz chops and knowledge of the language, in the band. 

So, even at their most prog/classical moments, they could gracefully segue in to a jazz section influenced the 'spiritual' jazz of the late 60's early 70's.


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## Denerah Bathory (6 mo ago)

Simon Moon said:


> Christian Vander is a Coltrane fanatic. And it doesn't take too much work to hear Coltrane's influence in Magma, probably more the earlier stuff than the latest.
> 
> But yeah, Magma has always had musicians with legitimate jazz chops and knowledge of the language, in the band.
> 
> So, even at their most prog/classical moments, they could gracefully segue in to a jazz section influenced the 'spiritual' jazz of the late 60's early 70's.


Well said, and it seems obvious that the jazz element was more prominent on the first two records, then we have MDK in 1973 which to me sums up what Magma are all about. From that point onward I'm still exploring their discography--for a while their CDs were quite difficult to acquire, even some second hand vendors charging 100-200 US. Working through it slowly, much like a pleasant challenge that rewards the listener for their dedication.


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## Simon Moon (Oct 10, 2013)

Denerah Bathory said:


> Well said, and it seems obvious that the jazz element was more prominent on the first two records, then we have MDK in 1973 which to me sums up what Magma are all about. From that point onward I'm still exploring their discography--for a while their CDs were quite difficult to acquire, even some second hand vendors charging 100-200 US. Working through it slowly, much like a pleasant challenge that rewards the listener for their dedication.


If you haven't already, you might want to check this out:

Progarchives - Magma


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## Simon Moon (Oct 10, 2013)

The best Zeuhl style band, that is not Magma. 

They don't even sing in Zeuhl, they sing in French.

Eskaton 






A couple of others of note in the Zeuhl style. 

I always thought this Japanese band was quite exceptional, Koenjihyakkei.






Corima, from my home town of LA, are no slouches, either. Great violin by Andrea Calderon.


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## NoCoPilot (Nov 9, 2020)




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## NoCoPilot (Nov 9, 2020)




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## Denerah Bathory (6 mo ago)

Thank you for the recommendations, I'll check these out


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## NoCoPilot (Nov 9, 2020)

You're welcome. Your mileage may vary, but when I zeuhl, these are the bands I zeuhl to.


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## regenmusic (Oct 23, 2014)

I haven't been on here and was reading the thread and glad someone came in defense of this very exciting band/composer from the original posters very good post.

I interviewed Christian and Stella in 1995 when he was playing with the Christian Vander Trio in Vancouver, CA.

I often like playing this song for people to introduce them to the scope of Magma's lyricism and dynamics. 

It's a shame people brush off artists based on what they think they look like. One has to market oneself somehow in this competitive world. 





Magma The Night We Died


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## regenmusic (Oct 23, 2014)

It is interesting to note how Stravinsky's Les Noces was >quoted directly< and influenced a lot of MDK.

Check out the 3:08 mark.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

I'm digging this one at the moment. Awesome stuff!


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

Magma - Myths and Legends

One of five 2 hour sets.


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## Denerah Bathory (6 mo ago)

regenmusic said:


> It is interesting to note how Stravinsky's Les Noces was >quoted directly< and influenced a lot of MDK.
> 
> Check out the 3:08 mark.


Thanks for showing this to me. I intended to reply sooner, but regardless I wasn't aware of this particular piece until you showed it here. Wow, surprised this doesn't get as much attention as Rite of Spring.


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## regenmusic (Oct 23, 2014)

You're welcome.

This has a Zuehl singing feel to it at the beginning.





Revival Miracle Meetings: deaf, MS, wheelchair, the Glory Cloud, smoking, arthritis, Lymes Disease


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