# Vintage vs modern Mahler recordings



## Bill Schuster (Oct 22, 2019)

While I absolutely appreciate the sound quality of 21st century recordings, I am really enjoying the faster paced, old mono stuff. I believe it was a Walter recording that really brought it to my attention. I don't mind the sound quality if the performance is full of life. Do you prefer your Mahler fast or slow?


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## TwoFlutesOneTrumpet (Aug 31, 2011)

Sometimes I like Mahler fast and sometimes I like him slow. A good performance can pull of either pace well. Bernstein has some very slow yet very exciting recordings. I'm thinking of the 5th. 

I do mind the sound quality, though. I tend to go for recordings from the digital era, although there have been some great analog recordings too. No mono for me, thanks.


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## Bill Schuster (Oct 22, 2019)

Fair enough. To be clear, I am still relatively new and not familiar enough with the 5th to judge. I am fairly good with the first four, but the rest have had much less attention from me. It is an ongoing journey. As far as mono, I think it enhances the experience sometimes because it feels like a historical artifact.


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## MrMeatScience (Feb 15, 2015)

My preference tends to be performances that are in modern sound but closer to an early 20th century performance style (Gielen's 5 is an example, considering the tempi and the portamenti, although neither are present to the degree they would likely have been). Still, they don't top the best performances from the earlier age. Mengelberg's 4 is probably my favorite Mahler recording, despite the sound.


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## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

We know for a fact that performances slowed down over the 20th c. That's why I vastly prefer many older conductors who somehow just keep the music flowing. It sounds so natural: Monteux, Munch, Paray, Reiner, Dorati, Mitropolous and others. The ones who wallow in music and slow it down as if to make some great point bore me: Celibidache the worst offender of all. When it comes to Mahler, there wasn't that much recorded unfortunately, but I am glad to have what we do. Any Mahler symphony recording that cannot fit on one CD is too long! (The exception must be the third, for obvious reasons.) The Seventh's finale is often seen as a problem - not when Kondrashin and a couple of others do it in around 15-16 minutes. Go past 17 and they start to get stuck in the mud - like Klemperer.


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## Totenfeier (Mar 11, 2016)

I can't see Mahler as having any ambitions toward being a historical relic. I am fully convinced that he would he amazed, astounded, and utterly delighted at the sheer size and power of modern orchestras, and the possibilities inherent in digital recording, and would exploit these qualities to the fullest. There are hints (timing notes, comments to friends - he told Natalie Bauer-Lechner that the Fourth would be _45 minutes long! - _, and, to a lesser extent, the piano rolls) that suggest Mahler would generally favor a quicker tempo overall (he was known for his quick, jerky walk, his sudden flares of temper, and his _intensity_ of emotion, rather than wallowing in the depths of depression and angst, except where Alma was concerned). Walter and Klemperer are both quicker than you think compared to some (even Klemperer's 7th, while problematic and nowhere near my favorite, was the first performance that fully revealed to me what the finale was actually about, and showed me where the music was). The many versions of Klemperer's 2nd all seem perfectly right to me, and he was the conductor of the offstage brass in the finale at the premiere of the 2nd. My favorite "early" Mahler conductor is Mitropoulos: Greek passion seems to suit Mahler to a T.; if I had to desert-island a Sixth, his would probably be it - it's a wonder. And even my good buddy Tennstedt, who, even if he isn't the best Mahler conductor ever, probably should be, referred to Bernstein's interpretations as acts of public self-gratification, if you know what I mean, and I think you do.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Mahler has to have decent sound. I can't see the older ones are necessarily faster. Try Juruwski's Mahler 2


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## Brahmsianhorn (Feb 17, 2017)

For the 5th I suggest the 1958 Rudolf Schwarz. More the style you are looking for but excellent sound quality.


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## realdealblues (Mar 3, 2010)

I don't always find that older recordings are faster, in fact some modern ones feel a bit too fast, but I think there is a fair amount of room for the tempo but within the confines of movements markings.

Take the 6th Symphonies first movement:

_Allegro energico, ma non troppo. Heftig, aber markig (Energetically quick, but not too much. Violent, but vigorous
_
There is some play in there but Mahler's intentions are fairly clear. Mahler would not approved of Barbirolli's dull trudge through molasses. Nor would he probably have approved of Kubelik's studio recording with it's fleet entrance as it's probably a bit too fast for that description, however Kubelik's live recording on Audite (a hair slower) is probably within the upper reaches of that description.

Some works we know what his approximate times were during performances and those that I have heard in those frames haven't felt too fast. So, I think there's a decent amount of wiggle room within each symphony but within regard of Mahler's intentions. Some bring up his comment about how if a conductor sees a way to in some way improve them, he should, but I don't see total disregard for his basic tempo intentions that form the work as making them better because as I said there is a decent amount of wiggle room within those indications. I personally feel he meant spontaneous small details within the performance, but each will have their own opinion.


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## Coach G (Apr 22, 2020)

I like the older Mahler recordings, 1950s-1980s by Bruno Walter, Dimitri Mitropoolos, Leonard Bernstein (both cycles), Maurice Abravanel, George Solti, George Szell, and even Herbert von Karajan, and including Bruno Walter's 1938 Mahler 9 w/the Vienna Phil. Each provides a different take on Mahler. Walter has the Viennese lilt; Mitropoulos is very free and spontaneous; Bernstein is full of existential angst and intensity; Abravanel is restrained but not boring (and does very well with his second-rate Utah Symphony in a field of world-class orchestras); Solti is very grand and Wagnerian; Szell is well-seasoned (he was also a gourmet chef you know); and Karajan is waxed an polished to perfection.


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## Rogerx (Apr 27, 2018)

Bill Schuster said:


> While I absolutely appreciate the sound quality of 21st century recordings, I am really enjoying the faster paced, old mono stuff. I believe it was a Walter recording that really brought it to my attention. I don't mind the sound quality if the performance is full of life. Do you prefer your Mahler fast or slow?


Depends on the day/ conductor.....I love Karajan 5 th.


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## ThaNotoriousNIC (Jun 29, 2020)

I am in the process of listening to all of Mahler's symphonies. I've listened to the first and the fifth symphonies before, but I have now listened to the first eight Mahler symphonies over the last four days. Truly incredible pieces of music and I can't believe that I am only now listening to many of them for the first time. One thing that I did want to ask here was if there was a particular vintage and/or modern recording of the symphonies that everyone recommends. I've been listening to mostly Bernstein recordings that he made with the NY Philharmonic or the Vienna Philharmonic. I felt that they were all pretty good but then again I do not have a previous baseline to compare to. I am going to listen to a Bernstein conducted version of the ninth and then I plan to listen to them all again with a different recording. I saw that a couple of you recommended Mitropoulos. Would his recordings be a good set to listen to and compare with the Bernstein recordings?


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

Conductors to go to for alternatives to Bernstein (who is often a bit too OTT) - Otto Klemperer, John Barbirolli, Jascha Horenstein, Bruno Walter & Rafael Kubelik. If you didn't already know, both Walter & Klemperer worked with Mahler.

P.S. And don't forget the 10th which Bernstein didn't touch.


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## Ulfilas (Mar 5, 2020)

ThaNotoriousNIC said:


> I am in the process of listening to all of Mahler's symphonies. I've listened to the first and the fifth symphonies before, but I have now listened to the first eight Mahler symphonies over the last four days. Truly incredible pieces of music and I can't believe that I am only now listening to many of them for the first time. One thing that I did want to ask here was if there was a particular vintage and/or modern recording of the symphonies that everyone recommends. I've been listening to mostly Bernstein recordings that he made with the NY Philharmonic or the Vienna Philharmonic. I felt that they were all pretty good but then again I do not have a previous baseline to compare to. I am going to listen to a Bernstein conducted version of the ninth and then I plan to listen to them all again with a different recording. I saw that a couple of you recommended Mitropoulos. Would his recordings be a good set to listen to and compare with the Bernstein recordings?


I'd suggest Boulez on DG as a good contrast to Bernstein.


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## Malx (Jun 18, 2017)

Coach G said:


> I like the older Mahler recordings, 1950s-1980s by Bruno Walter, Dimitri Mitropoolos, Leonard Bernstein (both cycles), Maurice Abravanel, George Solti, George Szell, and even Herbert von Karajan, and including Bruno Walter's 1938 Mahler 9 w/the Vienna Phil. Each provides a different take on Mahler. Walter has the Viennese lilt; Mitropoulos is very free and spontaneous; Bernstein is full of existential angst and intensity; Abravanel is restrained but not boring (and does very well with his second-rate Utah Symphony in a field of world-class orchestras); Solti is very grand and Wagnerian; Szell is well-seasoned (he was also a gourmet chef you know); and Karajan is waxed an polished to perfection.


Had a little chuckle when I read older recordings '1950s - 1980s' - I tend to think of anything from the 1930's - mid 1950's as older (historic recordings). Ah well I maybe have to reluctantly accept I'm getting older - I might have said more mature but my wife would disagree with that.

I would suggest Gielens, Boulez and Chailly as possible alternative cycles in good modern sound.


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## Coach G (Apr 22, 2020)

Malx said:


> Had a little chuckle when I read older recordings '1950s - 1980s' - I tend to think of anything from the 1930's - mid 1950's as older (historic recordings). Ah well I maybe have to reluctantly accept I'm getting older - I might have said more mature but my wife would disagree with that.
> 
> I would suggest Gielens, Boulez and Chailly as possible alternative cycles in good modern sound.


I started out with classical music, in high school and college, during the 1980s; and I relied heavily on budget reissue LPs from the Columbia and RCA lines. My record collection was dominated by the likes of Ormandy, Szell, Reiner, Stokowski, Bernstein, Horowitz, Gould, Serkin, Heifetz, Isaac Stern, and Zino Francescatti; all great old musicians, most of whom were either already dead or elderly by the time I came to them.

Anything before 1950 doesn't enjoy the benefit of quality sound technology. When Bernstein and Karajan died around 1990 (both recorded right to the end!) it now seems, at least in my own mind, that since they were the two leading conductors of that "Golden Age", everything after that became "new", or post-"Golden-Age".

I do try to give musicians who are currently making good classical recordings some representation in my collection and in my listening. I have some CDs by the legion of young women such as Sarah Chang and Yuja Wang who have come to dominate the market in recent years; and I have a handful of recordings by the "Dude", Gustavo Dudamel, along with some others. I think that Marin Alsop is a very fine conductor and a great champion of our great American composers such as Samuel Barber and her mentor, Leonard Bernstein (and I never thought that I'd find another conductor who could play Bernstein as well as Bernstein himself!). I also try to give contemporary composers an even chance as well: Vivian Fung, Jennifer Higdon, John Adams, etc.

But by-in-large, though, I'm pretty much caught up in the past; in the "Golden Age" recordings.

I'm even more stagnated with TV shows. Every once in a while I think about trying to get into a new TV series that everyone is talking about such as _Game of Thrones_, and sometimes I'll even try out a series that looks interesting such as _Rookie Blue_. But then I always go back to watching reruns of _MASH_, _All in the Family_, _The Odd Couple_, _The Honeymooners_, _Columbo_, _The Twilight Zone_, and so forth.

I guess everyone's definition of "vintage" or "Golden Age" is relative to their own memory, and then we get caught up in what we know and are comfortable with. This in itself may make for a good thread starter.


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

I'm not a big fan of Bernstein's Mahler -[#7 take 1, #3 take 2 are exceptions] for alternatices - try Walter, Solti, Abbado...for Mahler, top level orchestral execution is crucial - these conductors enjoy it.


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## ThaNotoriousNIC (Jun 29, 2020)

Thanks everyone! I did not know that Klemperer and Walter actually knew Mahler. Think I am going to give Walter a go if I can find his recordings of the symphonies on Spotify. Much appreciated!


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## Ulfilas (Mar 5, 2020)

Malx said:


> Had a little chuckle when I read older recordings '1950s - 1980s' - I tend to think of anything from the 1930's - mid 1950's as older (historic recordings). Ah well I maybe have to reluctantly accept I'm getting older - I might have said more mature but my wife would disagree with that.
> 
> I would suggest Gielens, Boulez and Chailly as possible alternative cycles in good modern sound.


They would be my choices too, plus I'd also consider the new Telarc box (in the best modern sound!).


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## Axter (Jan 15, 2020)

For me Solti/CSO, specially 5th Symph first recording in 1970 are the best Mahler performances.
I always considered Solti as the best Mahler interpreter ever.
I also like Bernstein/VPO recordings.


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## Ulfilas (Mar 5, 2020)

For me the key Mahler interpreter, the one I am most in tune with, is Boulez. Other favourites are Gielen and Chailly, which I guess shows where my preferences lie. At the same time, I think Bernstein can be wonderful (particularly the earlier CBS recordings).

I generally don't respond to Abbado's "fussy" style, and I think Rattle is completely overrated.


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## chesapeake bay (Aug 3, 2015)

Ulfilas said:


> I think Rattle is completely overrated.


I haven't particularly liked or disliked Rattle, however Becca did a blind sample of 4 Mahler 4's (might have been 5, 4's hehe) and I did come away liking his the best. So possibly give that one a shot and see what you think.


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## Ulfilas (Mar 5, 2020)

chesapeake bay said:


> I haven't particularly liked or disliked Rattle, however Becca did a blind sample of 4 Mahler 4's (might have been 5, 4's hehe) and I did come away liking his the best. So possibly give that one a shot and see what you think.


I'd be interested to know what the other four were!

If I were going to make a shortlist of 4ths off the top of my head, I'd have:

Maazel, VPO (Sony)

Kubelik, BRSO (DG)

Sinopoli, SKD (Profil)

Haitink, Concertgebouw (RCO)

Levi, Atlanta SO (Telarc)

Fischer, Budapest SO (Channel Classics)

Levine, CSO (RCA)


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

Here is a link to the blind comparison, you will find the answers in the 3rd page of posts

Blind Comparison - Mahler Symphony #4


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## Ulfilas (Mar 5, 2020)

Becca said:


> Here is a link to the blind comparison, you will find the answers in the 3rd page of posts
> 
> Blind Comparison - Mahler Symphony #4


Interesting. None of them really consensus picks!


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## DarkAngel (Aug 11, 2010)

Poster child for showing slower tempos of modern Mahler recordings is this famous 1938 VPO 9th, Walter knew Mahler personally and worked closely with him, he gave debut performance of M9 in 1912 after Mahlers death, they also share common Jewish faith and with Nazi shadow growing ever darker in Germany 1938 there is extra sense of troubled times ahead.....

Timing for this Walter performance is 69:42, compare that to 2CD modern 80+ minute affairs, Bernstein DG is nearly 90 minutes if I recall correctly


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## perempe (Feb 27, 2014)

Ulfilas said:


> If I were going to make a shortlist of 4ths off the top of my head, I'd have:
> 
> Fischer, Budapest SO (Channel Classics)


As season ticket holder, It's Budapest Festival Orchestra (BFO), not BSO.
(I'm not familiar with the linked orchestra.)


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## superhorn (Mar 23, 2010)

Don't forget the classic live recording of the Mahler 4th with Willem Mengelberg and the Concertgebouw orchestra from 1939, the only complete performance of a Mahler symphony by this quirky maestro in existence . 
Mengelberg was a close friend and colleague of Mahler and this performance makes extremely free use of rubato , for example, the huge rallentando he applies to the very beginning of the first movement, something no conductor of our time would try to do . 
Critics would probably blast any conductor of the present day who tried a similar approach, but it may very well be the thing we will ever hear to Mahler conducting one of his symphonies . 
Of course,Mahler left some tantalizing early recordings playing some excerpts from his symphonies on the piano . 
Just think, if he had lived some years beyond his untimely demise just before his 50th birthday , he could have made recordings of his symphonies ! 
I believe the very first complete recording of a Mahler symphony comes form the 1920s, and is ACOUSTICAL with Oskar Fried, a once well known conductor born in 1871 who knew Mahler and worked with him . The orchestra is that of the Berlin state opera . You can hear this on youtube, and I recommend it . Getting such a huge orchestra on an acoustical recording was a herculean task !


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

I was listening to the great Walter/NYPO Mahler 5 from 1947...it is still, after so many years,very excellent and stacks up well...this recording was originally released on 78s, but the sound is still quite good.
This was my 2nd exposure to Mahler5....I knew syms 2 and 1, then picked up Scherchen/VSOO #5....Gawd, awful!! terrible playing, a real dog....I couldn't believe the composer of the wonderful syms 1 and 2, could produce such a loser...then I acquired the Walter, and it immediately all made sense...
The NYPO in 1947 was a great ensemble, with very strong woodwinds and brass...this is most evident on the M5 recording....the brass solo work is outstanding, overall...Wm Vacchiano (tpt), James Chambers(hn), Gordon Pulis (trbne) acquit themselves most splendidly...yes, there are a couple of slurps (tpt,hn), but remember, the 78 takes required several minutes at a time, with no ability to edit....Walter's grasp of the work is most convincing, he skillfully directs the rising/falling action with an unerring artistic vision..
The sound certainly isn't present day Hi-fi, but it is really quite good, with excellent balance and clarity....orchestra detail comes thru, but the huge tutti passages are well presented also....(I have the original cd release, there is apparently a remastered cd version, which has marginally improved sound, I've not heard this version).


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