# Which of these 3 Beethoven Symphonies is more dramatic?



## caters (Aug 2, 2018)

To me, 3 of Beethoven's symphonies are equally dramatic, but the drama is very different. Here I will go symphony by symphony as to how they are dramatic.

*The Eroica Symphony*





Most obviously, there are the sudden dynamic changes that occur throughout. Next up is the repeated diminished 7ths. These will be two of few similarities across symphonies. Next up is the C major to C minor motion. This C minor hints at the second movement. Then there is the semitone clash right before the lyrical theme of the development. The recapitulation itself brings the drama of heroism. And the coda really hints at the second movement, and itself brings in drama because it is basically a second development section.

The second movement brings in the drama of sheer contrast. In contrast to the heroism of the first movement, the second movement has this deathly sadness to it. It also goes fugal later on, which brings upon even more drama. C minor itself is a very dramatic key, in contrast to the beauty of Eb major. Even when it later on goes to C major for a while, it is still very dramatic.

The Scherzo is like a palate cleanser, unlike the other dramatic movements, it is more humourous. It is also just as heroic as the first movement. Overall though, it isn't all that dramatic.

The Finale is just as dramatic as the first movement without all the diminished harmonies and the second development in the first movement. This partly has to do with the fact that it is in Theme and Variations form, but Beethoven forms a large scale Sonata Form out of that. Such a genius he is.

*Beethoven's Fifth*





Of course, if I am talking about 3 Beethoven symphonies being equally dramatic, of course I have to mention the worldwide infamous Beethoven's Fifth. Every movement of it is dramatic. Of course, there are the dynamics, as in all of Beethoven's works. This whole symphony is often described as goind from darkness to light.

In the first movement, this dynamic drama is central. With it being in C minor, that alone gives a dramatic feeling to it. This is augmented further by having everything based on a single motive, the famous Fate motive. In the development of the first movement, there are these repeated diminished seventh chords, and the repeated question and answer followed by a sudden, out of the blue fortissimo. The Fate motive on the one hand, makes the recapitulation seem like an afterthought, because it naturally follows the rest of the development section, but on the other hand, gives a clear delineation between the development and the recapitulation. Like in the Eroica symphony, the coda is basically a second development section because of its extent. But no, that's not all. In the recapitulation, there is a moment where the orchestration and tempo suddenly changes from a fast Allegro and full orchestra to a slow adagio for oboe solo. This tempo and orchestration change being sudden adds further to the drama. It is almost like Beethoven thought this:



> This symphony is so dramatic and so groundbreaking, that I should have a solo moment in there. And since I am writing a piano concerto, that just reinforces the need for a solo in the symphony. I will put it in the oboe. There. Done.


The second movement is more of a palate cleanser, but even then, it still has this drama to it. It starts with this lyrical theme. But then it suddenly gets these dissonant chords and resolves them into a triumphant theme that hints at the Finale. Then, there is the sudden change back to this quiet , lyrical theme. And this happens multiple times, because it is what is known as a Double Variation, which is basically a Theme and Variations, but for 2 themes.

The Scherzo is very dramatic. It initially starts out very mysterious sounding with its theme. almost like you are lost deep in a forest. Then, out of the blue, you have this fortissimo theme. The Trio section of this is treated in a more fugal manner. This dynamic change is again central to the drama of the movement. After the trio, the theme that was fortissimo intially is staccato and quiet. The repeated C's transitions into the Finale, so smoothly, that there is no clear breaking point between Scherzo and Finale unlike with other symphonies.

Speaking of the Finale, this is the light at the end of the tunnel as some people describe it. It has drama, certainly, but it isn't the drama of dynamics or minor key, no it the drama of heroism, just like in the Eroica symphony's First Movement and Finale. Suddenly, when the recapitulation is imminent, he brings back the fortissimo theme of the Scherzo, but this doesn't make the triumph doubtful. It actually makes it more triumphant in a way.

*Ninth Symphony*





This is very dramatic indeed. Like the Fifth symphony, it has this minor key with a picardy third in the finale.

The First movement has dynamics as always as a source of drama. But despite its minor key, in a way, the fortissimo sounds heroic. It is like a minor key version of Eroica in the sense that it is heroic at the same level as the Eroica symphony, but is in a minor key. Part of the drama of this symphony comes from its sudden modulations. Beethoven does modulations to all these keys:


D minor
D major
Bb major
C minor
C major(Scherzo does this)

And those keys are pretty distant in a way(none of them would require just 1 circle of fifths motion to get to from any of the other keys) and yet, Beethoven is able to make all of these modulations just as smooth as a circle of fifths motion. I suspect he uses a lot of pivot chords to achieve this. Why? Because I looked at a sudden modulation that happens in the Pathetique sonata, when it goes from Eb major to G minor and then to E minor just like that. And guess what? The bridge between the G minor and E minor sections was a single pivot chord, specifically F#°7 with an enharmonic respelling to better fit the 3 flat key signature. This would be both the vii°7 of G minor and the ii°7 of E minor.

So yeah, modulation, sudden modulation specifically, brings a lot of drama to this heroic, D minor symphony.

The second movement is actually a Scherzo, atypical for its time, but dramatically effective. Pretty much everything I explained about the drama of the first movement applies to all the other movements too. In other words, there is no palate cleanser like with his Eroica symphony or his Fifth symphony.

But the Finale has even more contributing to the drama. First off, there is this Ode to Joy theme that gets varied as the movement goes on, because like in his Eroica symphony, the Finale is in Theme and Variations form. Ode to Joy is perhaps the best musical interpretation of joy that is out there. Second, this again forms a larger scale sonata form. And third, the Ode to Joy theme becomes a fugue. But not just any old fugue. Nope, it becomes a double fugue. Double fugues are rare across musical eras(even across all of Bach's fugues, very few of them are Double fugues, and there is only a single Triple fugue in existence, composed by Bach), so for Beethoven to not only make the theme fugal, but turn it into a double fugue, is just remarkable.

So, I think these 3 symphonies are equally dramatic but what do you think? Is there 1 symphony that is more dramatic than the other two?


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## flamencosketches (Jan 4, 2019)

I was going to vote Eroica, but I don't agree that it is programmatic. Your description didn't go very far to convince me either!


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## CnC Bartok (Jun 5, 2017)

I would have gone for No.7 as the most dramatic of the nine.....

And why's No.5 "infamous"? I would like to think it a stupendous masterpiece, even more so considering its fame/exposure/over-exposure over the past 200 years, and yet it's still capable of being remarkably fresh and exciting, even on the 700th hearing.....


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## Merl (Jul 28, 2016)

CnC Bartok said:


> I.......... and yet it's still capable of being remarkably fresh and exciting, even on the 700th hearing.....


Only 700 listens, CnC? Novice! :lol:


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## CnC Bartok (Jun 5, 2017)

I missed out "this year"........:lol:


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## Brahmsian Colors (Sep 16, 2016)

Why bother to shave hairs?


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## Eva Yojimbo (Jan 30, 2016)

There's little that's more dramatic than Furtwangler's wartime Eroica. Based on that alone, it gets my vote.


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## Strange Magic (Sep 14, 2015)

In my view, the Eroica shows Beethoven at the pinnacle of his powers in composing an entire symphony. Later symphonies had many moments of great inspiration but, with the possible exception of the 6th, were often uneven as a totality. The Eroica never flags, never indulges in _longueurs_, or otherwise overstays its welcome.


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## Larkenfield (Jun 5, 2017)

I think the drama behind all of these symphonies is being overrated. For instance, the first movement of the Eroica sounds more lyrical than dramatic, and so on. I believe Beethoven had more on his mind than drama and each movement needs to be heard in a larger context. With the Eroica, heroic and dramatic may not necessarily be the same thing.


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## Merl (Jul 28, 2016)

Larkenfield said:


> I think the drama behind all of these symphonies is being overrated. For instance, the first movement of the Eroica sounds more lyrical than dramatic, and so on. I believe Beethoven had more on his mind than drama and each movement needs to be heard in a larger context. With the Eroica, heroic and dramatic may not necessarily be the same thing.


And over dramatic and heroic Eroicas sound awful to these ears. I'm more of a fan of leaner, lither Eroica these days (eg Weil).


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