# Beethoven 13 and Grosse Fugue



## juliante

Do people listen to the last movement plus the grosse fugue? Or as i prefer, treat the last movement as the gross fugue as I believe ludwig intended and skip the later added final movement. Just interested, clearly it doesn't matter - it’s a stupendous experience either way. I just find it to be more satisfying.


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## DiesIraeCX

When listening to Op. 130, I skip the updated final movement and listen to the _Grosse Fuge_ as the final movement, as Beethoven intended.

I listen to the updated final movement as a separate piece of music, even though it works very well as a conclusion to the string quartet.

My favorite version, the Takács Quartet (they're my favorite for all of the late and middle quartets, for that matter).


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## KenOC

Half the time one way, half the time the other. I have both Op. 130 playlists on my iPod for each of my Op. 130 performances.


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## KenOC

DiesIraeCX said:


> When listening to Op. 130, I skip the updated final movement and listen to the _Grosse Fuge_ as the final movement, as Beethoven intended.


Beethoven agreed to remove the Grosse Fuge and wrote a new finale, approving of its publication in that form. Beethoven's intent would seem to be that the newer finale is the proper closing movement. Not that I necessarily agree with him!

Of course you're quite right about the Takacs.


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## DiesIraeCX

KenOC said:


> Beethoven agreed to remove the Grosse Fuge and wrote a new finale, approving of its publication in that form. Beethoven's intent would seem to be that the newer finale is the proper closing movement. Not that I necessarily agree with him!
> 
> Of course you're quite right about the Takacs.


He certainly agreed to remove the _Grosse Fuge_, he approved of the new finale and the publication in that form, no doubt about the history.

I should have said, "as Beethoven _originally_ intended". I should have been more clear, I apologize for that.

Both movements work well as the finale, in my opinion. I just think Beethoven initially wrote the Grosse Fuge as its finale for a reason, whether he was mad or not. To others he could certainly seem quite mad. :lol:

We all know what Dickinson had to say about this, and I'm inclined to agree.

"Much Madness is divinest Sense -
To a discerning Eye -
Much Sense - the starkest Madness -
'Tis the Majority
In this, as all, prevail -
Assent - and you are sane -
Demur - you're straightway dangerous -
And handled with a Chain -"


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## Triplets

There is a critic for Fanfare, Jerry Dubins, who everytime he reviews recordings of this Quartet becomes apoplectic if the shorter movement is used as the Finale. He routinely launches nto a 10 paragraph tirade about it. Hopefully he has it saved as a cut and paste on his word processor because it happens virtually every issue.
The practical matter is that on recordings, particularly CDs, you can program it any which way you like. There are times i want to hear the shorter ending and other times I want the whole enchilada. Depends on my mood, what I had for lunch, and which of my progeny has irritated me on a given day.


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## Manxfeeder

I'm more into the fugue. The other ending is nice, but it doesn't have the same sock-in-the-gut impact.


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## Ukko

My CD of The Petersen SQ performance has Op. 133 as the finale, then the alternate - after a few seconds pause. Works fine, and prolongs the Beethoven-induced trance.


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## Fugue Meister

KenOC said:


> Beethoven agreed to remove the Grosse Fuge and wrote a new finale, approving of its publication in that form. Beethoven's intent would seem to be that the newer finale is the proper closing movement. Not that I necessarily agree with him!
> 
> Of course you're quite right about the Takacs.


I'm not saying your wrong but I'm certainly skeptical of Beethoven thinking it was more a proper closing to the piece. He was a sick, sick man when his publishers begged him to write a different finale thinking the Grosse Fuge was to dissonant and unpleasing to the ears of the day. In my view the dying Maestro was badgered by his publishers and peers into doing a more "consumer friendly" finale and he just didn't have his legendary defiance with him on his death bed.

In any case I still have sentimental feelings for the updated finale because it was the very last thing Beethoven wrote and I believe a more fitting piece of music to have written at his end. However the Grosse Fuge is absolutely the better ending to Op. 130.


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## KenOC

Fugue Meister said:


> I'm not saying your wrong but I'm certainly skeptical of Beethoven thinking it was more a proper closing to the piece. He was a sick, sick man when his publishers begged him to write a different finale...


 Actually at that time Beethoven had recovered from a recent severe illness (referred to in the slow movement of his previous quartet, the Op. 132) and was feeling pretty chipper, according to his biographers. He still was to write his huge Op. 131 and the smaller Op. 135 quartets as well as the new Op. 130 finale and his own two-piano transcription of the Grosse Fuge. After that, his final illness started in December 1826. This period in his life is covered in some detail in both the Cooper and Swafford bios.

If he was a "dying maestro" he certainly didn't know it at that time. He was still formulating plans for some very big works to follow the quartets.


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## Fugue Meister

KenOC said:


> Actually at that time Beethoven had recovered from a recent severe illness (referred to in the slow movement of his previous quartet, the Op. 132) and was feeling pretty chipper, according to his biographers. He still was to write his huge Op. 131 and the smaller Op. 135 quartets as well as the new Op. 130 finale and his own two-piano transcription of the Grosse Fuge. After that, his final illness started in December 1826. This period in his life is covered in some detail in both the Cooper and Swafford bios.
> 
> If he was a "dying maestro" he certainly didn't know it at that time. He was still formulating plans for some very big works to follow the quartets.


Well hoity toity Mr. God-like smarty-pants... :devil:

Kidding but seriously no matter how "chipper" he felt I'm sure he no doubt felt vulnerable having been through an a great deal of sickness and decline in health from many issues and now you made me question my knowledge on said matter but I was under the impression he wrote the updated finale after one of his operations and back then it would have been enough for anyone to question the longevity of life. I still feel 30 (even 45) year old Beethoven would have ignored requests to provide a different finale than the original Grosse Fuge, the strain of arguing with people while your well being is not good for one trying to get better and I'll bet chipper, hoping to get better Beethoven didn't want to chance it and submitted to popular opinion.

Am I wrong Ken. I mean it put me in my place if you know better it's been some time since I read one of his biographies but I have read a few.


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## KenOC

Well, not exactly apropos but you may be interested in the passage from Cooper's biography:

"It is often assumed that, after the Ninth Symphony, Beethoven turned his back on the public, withdrawing into a private world to write string quartets purely for his own satisfaction. Nothing could be further from the truth. Although his late quartets were supposedly sparked off by a request from Galitzin and sustained by his own love of the genre, it was public demand, filtered through a number of publishers, that fuelled this unprecedented burst of activity in a single genre. Beethoven had been asked for quartets by both Schlesinger and Peters even before Galitzin's commission had arrived; and Schott's and probably Steiner had joined the chase before a note of Op. 127 had been written. These and other publishers then sustained Beethoven's activities with offers of high rewards unmatched, as Schlesinger confirmed, in other types of music... He had, it is true, received 600 fl. from Schott's for the Ninth Symphony -- more than the 360 fl. now being offered for a quartet -- but in proportion to the work involved the rate was lower."

Cooper also describes the dinner parties during this period at which much mutual schmoozing took place -- Beethoven angling for higher prices, the publishers competing for exclusive rights.

Bear in mind too that the pot was sweetened by a nice payment for the new finale, and ultimately another payment for the Gross Fuge transcription.


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## chesapeake bay

The version I listen to has the Grosse Fugue, I just like it so much I would always rather listen to it. However now that I look at the file, I failed to tag it properly so I don't know who did it! grrr.


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## Pugg

Manxfeeder said:


> I'm more into the fugue. The other ending is nice, but it doesn't have the same sock-in-the-gut impact.


I am whole heartily agree with you :tiphat:


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## juliante

KenOC said:


> Actually at that time Beethoven had recovered from a recent severe illness (referred to in the slow movement of his previous quartet, the Op. 132) and was feeling pretty chipper, according to his biographers. He still was to write his huge Op. 131 and the smaller Op. 135 quartets as well as the new Op. 130 finale and his own two-piano transcription of the Grosse Fuge. After that, his final illness started in December 1826. This period in his life is covered in some detail in both the Cooper and Swafford bios.
> 
> If he was a "dying maestro" he certainly didn't know it at that time. He was still formulating plans for some very big works to follow the quartets.


Swafford concurs with this. For whatever that's worth.


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## Stirling

He is much better at explain other people's music.


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