# Beethoven symphony 4: hidden under the others?



## adriesba

Why does Beethoven's 4th symphony seem to be the last one people choose to perform? It just seem to me that it goes under all the others, even the 1st and 2nd which were less groundbreaking from what I (incorrectly perhaps?) understand. Do you guys like this work? What are your favorite recordings? etc.


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## KenOC

I’ve read that some consider this Beethoven's most “perfect” symphony, and also the last that’s pure happiness. Beethoven was already working on his 5th Symphony, but Count von Oppersdorff offered a commission for a symphony more like his 2nd in style. Ludwig obliged, though this symphony obviously breathes a different air.

My favorite remains Walter’s with the Columbia Symphony Orchestra, though that may be something of a sentimental preference. Others will have other favorites!


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## pianozach

LOL

No one ever even mentions *Beethoven*'s *4th Symphony*. It's kind of overshadowed by being sandwiched between the 3rd (Eroica) and the 5th (Fate, or Schicksals).

I think it's because it is lacking *a catchy nickname* that encapsulates its geniality or some other nod to its creation. Or maybe to simply stir up some interest.

Symphony No. 4 in Bb major, Op. 60 "The Mercenary Symphony"
Symphony No. 4 in Bb major, Op. 60 "The Oppersdorff Symphony"
Symphony No. 4 in Bb major, Op. 60 "The Sell Out"
Symphony No. 4 in Bb major, Op. 60 "ma non troppo Sinfonie"
Symphony No. 4 in Bb major, Op. 60 "The Forgotten Symphony"
Symphony No. 4 in Bb major, Op. 60 "The Bait 'n' Switch"
Symphony No. 4 in Bb major, Op. 60 "The Scoundrel"
Symphony No. 4 in Bb major, Op. 60 "The Unheard"
Symphony No. 4, Op. 60 "The 'Excuse-Me-While-I-Whip-This-Out' Symphony"


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## adriesba

pianozach said:


> LOL
> 
> No one ever even mentions Beethoven's 4th Symphony. It's kind of overshadowed by both the 3rd (Eroica) and the 5th (Fate, or Schicksals).
> 
> I think it's because it is lacking *a catchy nickname* that encapsulates its geniality or some other nod to its creation. Or maybe to simply stir up some interest.
> 
> Symphony No. 4 in Bb major, Op. 60 "The Mercenary Symphony"
> Symphony No. 4 in Bb major, Op. 60 "The Oppersdorff Symphony"
> Symphony No. 4 in Bb major, Op. 60 "The Sell Out"
> Symphony No. 4 in Bb major, Op. 60 "ma non troppo Sinfonie"
> Symphony No. 4 in Bb major, Op. 60 "The Forgotten Symphony"
> Symphony No. 4 in Bb major, Op. 60 "The Bait 'n' Switch"
> Symphony No. 4 in Bb major, Op. 60 "The *******"
> Symphony No. 4 in Bb major, Op. 60 "The Unheard"
> Symphony No. 4 in Bb major, Op. 60 "The 'Excuse-Me-While-I-Whip-This-Out' Symphony"


Lol, I like "The 'Excuse-Me-While-I-Whip-This-Out' Symphony" nickname. :lol:

I actually just got done listening to a later Karajan recording of the symphony.


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## KenOC

Carl Maria von Weber on Beethoven’s 4th, as recounted by Sir George Grove in 1896:
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
It is supposed to be a dream, in which the instruments of the orchestra are heard uttering their complaints after the rehearsal of the new work. They are in serious conclave round the principal violins, grave personages whose early years have been spent under Pleyel and Gyrowetz. The double bass is speaking.

"I have just come from the rehearsal of a Symphony by one of our newest composers; and though, as you know, I have a tolerably strong constitution, I could only just hold out, and five minutes more would have shattered my frame and burst the sinews of my life. I have been made to caper about like a wild goat, and to turn myself into a mere fiddle to execute the no-ideas of Mr. Composer. I'd sooner be a dancing-master's kit at once, and earn my bread with Muller and Kauer"—the Strausses of the day.

The first violoncello (bathed in perspiration) says that for his part he is too tired to speak, and can recollect nothing like the warming he has had since he played in Cherubini's last opera. The second violoncello is of opinion that the Symphony is a musical monstrosity, revolting alike to the nature of the instruments and the expression of thought, and with no intention whatever but that of mere show-off.

After this the orchestra-attendant enters and threatens them with the Sinfonia Eroica if they are not quiet, and makes a speech in which he tells them that the time has gone by for clearness and force, spirit and fancy, "like those of Gluck, Handel, and Mozart," and that the following (evidently a caricature of the work before us) is the latest Vienna recipe for a Symphony: First a slow movement full of short disjointed unconnected ideas, at the rate of three or four notes per quarter of an hour; then a mysterious roll of the drum and passage of the violas, seasoned with the proper quantity of pauses and ritardandos; and to end all a furious finale, in which the only requisite is that there should be no ideas for the hearer to make out, but plenty of transitions from one key to another—on to the new note at once! never mind modulating!—above all things, throw rules to the winds, for they only hamper a genius.

"At this point," says Weber in his own person, "I woke in a dreadful fright, lest I was on the road to become either a great composer or—a lunatic."


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## Allegro Con Brio

I love it! For me it is better than the 7th and 8th. The outer movements are so full of delightful energy (not to mention that startlingly forward-looking chromatic introduction to the first movement), the Adagio is lovely, and the scherzo is one of his finest examples in that form IMO. Blomstedt/Dresden is the best I've heard on it.


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## Art Rock

I like it a lot, much more than 1,2,8 and 9.


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## Joachim Raff

Up my street! I tend to listen to stuff others may not bother with. So my favourite is the 4th. Leonard Bernstein/NYPO (SONY)do a super version of this symphony.


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## DaddyGeorge

I love this Symphony. It's a wonderful work full of beautiful musical ideas and full of joy (although, as I read somewhere, when Beethoven rejoices, sparks fly anyway). I don't know why, but the atmosphere of the first movement reminds me somehow of Mozart's Symphony #38 (although the pieces are quite different). I really like the rhythm of second violin at the beginning of Adagio.








The third movement seems to me more like Scherzo and if it there weren't the tremendously orchestrated Trio, I wouldn't just guess (by listening) that it's Menuetto. Finale is riveting and I really don't know why this Symphony isn't more famous.
As we see, even Google underestimates this work.


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## Marc

DaddyGeorge said:


> I love this Symphony. It's a wonderful work full of beautiful musical ideas and full of joy (although, as I read somewhere, when Beethoven rejoices, sparks fly anyway). I don't know why, but the atmosphere of the first movement reminds me somehow of Mozart's Symphony #38 (although the pieces are quite different). I really like the rhythm of second violin at the beginning of Adagio.
> View attachment 133985
> 
> 
> The third movement seems to me more like Scherzo and if it there weren't the tremendously orchestrated Trio, I wouldn't just guess (by listening) that it's Menuetto. Finale is riveting and I really don't know why this Symphony isn't more famous.
> As we see, even Google underestimates this work.
> 
> View attachment 133986


Google... oh dear. Never forget: no matter whether you block all those darn cookies and/or wipe away your internet history on a daily basis, Google will always remember who you are. So, and it makes me really sad to say this to a declared 4th symphony lover, this probably means that you yourself did not show any interest in this symphony at all on the world wide web, with the exceptance maybe way back in 1807, when it was premiered... :lol:

I got this Google result:










This shows that I'm not doing much better. But... at least it got a very modest mention. 
(And yes, it's true, if I recall correctly, I did search for it, for some odd reason that I forgot, in September 1998. LOL)

The explanation of this 'low score' is not so difficult though: despite the fact that it's indeed a delicious symhony, it's (one of) his least revolutionary. I think people enjoy this piece as plain good music, without having the urge to search or understand why. Even though some of us might dream about it (thank you mr. Von Weber!), this symphony is pure music, it's both classical and fresh, and there are no 'heavy' underlying biographical or historical issues.

Welcome to the 19th century: "oh, it's just pure music, eh? Carry on then."


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## Mandryka

adriesba said:


> What are your favorite recordings? etc.


Furtwangler 1943,


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## Caesura

I like it too, it's actually one of my favourites along with 7 and 9.


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## Judith

Caesura said:


> I like it too, it's actually one of my favourites along with 7 and 9.


I love it. Pity it is underrated. Saw it performed live at 2018 proms by Joshua Bell and asmf. Have their recording of it also


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## Simplicissimus

In my life, I am sure I’ve listened to 4 more than any of the other Beethoven symphonies. During a horrible, bleak period of my life in early 2013, I listened to it at least once a day because it was one of the few pieces of music that tended to make me feel less miserable. My favorite recording is Jochum/Concertgebouw 1968.


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## Marc

Mandryka said:


> Furtwangler 1943,


There's an acceptable sounding upload of that one here:






And this is Furtwängler's studio recording of 1952, with the Wiener Phil. Less dramatic, a bit more to my personal likings:


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## DaddyGeorge

Marc said:


> Google... oh dear. Never forget: no matter whether you block all those darn cookies and/or wipe away your internet history on a daily basis, Google will always remember who you are. So, and it makes me really sad to say this to a declared 4th symphony lover, this probably means that you yourself did not show any interest in this symphony at all on the world wide web, with the exceptance maybe way back in 1807, when it was premiered... :lol:


I don't want to be wrong, but I think I've never searched for any Beethoven's symphony on Google until today the 4th. I needed a digital sample of score. (I normally use a classic book score). I think you can type any word into Google (for the first time in your life) and suggestions will always appear, in these cases it's not related to your browser history...


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## mbhaub

As a bassoonist, I loathe it. The 1st bassoon part in the finale is one of the most wicked things ever written. You have to double tongue while managing some fiercely awkward fingerings. A nightmare - and muffed many times by unwary players are reckless conductors.

As a listener, it's a lovely, fun work. It's one of the master's lesser achievements being sandwiched between two monumental works, but if it had been written by anyone else it alone would put that composer in the "greats" list. At their best, Raff, Reinecke, Rubinstein, Draeseke, Spohr, Volkmann and others don't even come close.


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## Art Rock

mbhaub said:


> As a bassoonist, I loathe it. The 1st bassoon part in the finale is one of the most wicked things ever written. You have to double tongue while managing some fiercely awkward fingerings. A nightmare - and muffed many times by unwary players are reckless conductors.
> 
> As a listener, it's a lovely, fun work. It's one of the master's lesser achievements being sandwiched between two monumental works, but if it had been written by anyone else it alone would put that composer in the "greats" list. At their best, Raff, Reinecke, Rubinstein, Draeseke, Spohr, Volkmann and others don't even come close.


Personally, I prefer Raff's 5th over Beethoven's 4th (and as stated, I quite like the B4).


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## Bigbang

I have Kleiber live 4 on Orfeo label. Have Walter, Bohm, Solti (both analog/digital), Bernstein, Wand, Hogwood, and a few more I cannot recall right off. I have to say I need to get more serious about hearing this and comparing them to see what I like best. The cycles I have are just ok and do not compare to the individual ones listed above. Help me choose the best one.


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## Olias

I love the 4th. It's Beethoven proving he could compose quality music without all the angst. The finale almost sounds like an overture to an Opera Buffa. The 7th is my favorite, but I love the 4th immensely. My personal favorites are Mackerras/Royal Liverpool and Bernstein/Vienna.


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## KenOC

Olias said:


> I love the 4th. It's Beethoven proving he could compose quality music without all the angst. The finale almost sounds like an overture to an Opera Buffa. The 7th is my favorite, but I love the 4th immensely. My personal favorites are Mackerras/Royal Liverpool and Bernstein/Vienna.


The finale is often called a _perpetuum mobile_ and certainly reminds me of Mozart's overture to _The Marriage of Figaro_. :cheers:


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## Olias

KenOC said:


> The finale is often called a _perpetuum mobile_ and certainly reminds me of Mozart's overture to _The Marriage of Figaro_. :cheers:


Yes! I first thought of Figaro when I heard it and also perhaps the Rossini crescendo from Barber of Seville.


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## 89Koechel

mbhaub - Well, you have CHOSEN one of the more UNchosen instruments, of the woodwinds - the bassoon, and congratulations!! My late father (died, 1954) was a bassoonist in the Lexington, KY Orch. of an earlier time ... and I know that this instrument requires excellent technique and application, of a musician's ability to integrate the instrument, within the "fabric" of what the others are accomplishing. Also, no doubt, that there've been reckless conductors - could you name some? ... Also, didn't Mozart compose some FINE parts for the bassoon, incl. the Concerto, itself? There's, of course, the recording with the "old man"/Toscanini, with Leonard Sharrow ... and maybe this is the STANDARD for all others.


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## SixFootScowl

Allegro Con Brio said:


> I love it! For me it is better than the 7th and 8th. The outer movements are so full of delightful energy (not to mention that startlingly forward-looking chromatic introduction to the first movement), the Adagio is lovely, and the scherzo is one of his finest examples in that form IMO. Blomstedt/Dresden is the best I've heard on it.


I also like it better than 7 and 8 and also better than 2.


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## hammeredklavier

It's just not as memorable as the other ones in terms of melodic, motivic, rhythmic catchiness. The first movement is fine, but the rest of the symphony just doesn't stand out to me, probably for that reason. I have a similar issue with Mass Op.86 and a number of lesser-known piano sonatas. I once listened to Mass Op.86 like 5 times straight, as a way of "drilling" it into my brain.
But the the only significant melodic or motivic material I remember from the work is the Kyrie theme. 
Allerius expressed a couple of times his high opinion of the Agnus dei. As a way of having respect for his opinion, I listened to it again, but I still can't remember to this day the actual content, of what I listened to.
I don't feel this way about the odd-numbered symphonies, or the emperor concerto, for example, which are full of memorable motivic/rhythmic material. I think this is what the 4th symphony lacks.


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## Bigbang

I am not as drawn to the 4th either but, to me, it is really about contrast with Beethoven other works. For example, the 5th, after the drama of the first famous (repeating it again and again and again) movement we get this so beautiful serene andante con moto, filled with such beautiful moments, a reward after hearing (or living) the first movement. The Eroica, the first movement, well, hard to compete with all that entails and the funeral that follows, and then the last movement, variations and then, wow, what a finish to a heroic ending. Then the 9th, the 6th, the 7th....so I guess the rest are for me not as grand in vision but the Beethoven stamp is on it just as much. I really think too many people read into other opinions on descriptions such as the 4th is a joyful symphony or meant to be played as such. It can be tweaked to be serious, more Beethoven angst (if that is what people hear, I don't).

So in the end, some people kiss their pets in private and in public and some would never even dream of doing so in either, perhaps, maybe have some clogged pipes that will not allow the flow to come out in showing affection to their pets. So, to me, Beethoven is here to give a little liberation to our clogged pipes if we choose. If it cannot be, then ok, back to Bach then. 

Just kidding! No Bach protests! 

I think.


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## Enthusiast

I love the work but have found that really good performances of it are more rare than any of the others. It seems a little elusive.


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## mbhaub

89Koechel said:


> Also, no doubt, that there've been reckless conductors - could you name some?


In professional groups those bassoon licks aren't a problem - or shouldn't be. That part is a standard audition excerpt and any wanna be bassoonist spends a lot of time working on it. The reckless conductors I speak of are the ones who wind up doing community, amateur, and semi-pro groups. They typically are younger, inexperienced and think they're going to wow the audience with a blazing performance. So at a concert they give the upbeat for the finale. Your adrenaline spikes when you realize that the arm waver is going faster than any rehearsal and you know that solo is coming up. It's hard enough to play at a moderate tempo. There's nothing you can do about it. The "maestro" then gets angry because the bassoonist failed at a critical solo. Fortunately, the rest of the wind section understands the problem. Experienced, talented conductors know the limitations of instruments and by studying the scores they avoid these pitfalls. It's not just bassoon, either. There are some really challenging parts for every instrument, but so often conductors used to be pianists who have little or no orchestral playing experience - and it shows.


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## Heck148

The 4th mvt bassoon lick is indeed notorious...many different tales circulate about it...one of my former teachers, the late K.D. Van Hoesen, related that he was auditioning for the 2nd bassoon position in Szell's Cleveland Orchestra back in the 50s...he was practicing at breakneck speed, faster and faster, dreading having to play it for Szell...George Goslee, the principal, came by...<<Dave, slow down, slow down, he goes nowhere near that fast...relax, phrase it, make music out of it>> indeed, Szell asked for it quite slow (recording, iirc, is around 128-132 bts/min)...Van Hoesen coached his students in the same fashion - first time at audition - play it slow, well-phrased, nice and clear, if the conductor/committee wants it at a million mph they can ask for it...

Reiner was famous for putting his musicians on the spot...every principal got their chance to be "in the barrel"...LvB #4 was on the upcoming program - Leonard Sharrow (Bssn 1) was warming up in stage, practicing different tongue/slur combinations for the famous lick....Reiner enters, scowling, as usual, glaring about, looks at Sharrow - "NO SLURS!!" At performance, the tempo is really zippy - Sharrow didn't 2ble tongue, but he spit it out pretty well (he did put in some slurs!!)

I've played it a few times and it went well...once, esp, tempo was about 144 or so....and the conductor set it up very nicely...clear, precise...another time, tho, the conductor was obsessed with going 160+ per minute at performance, much faster than rehearsal...gawd, really hauling...unfortunately, the strings couldn't sustain that quick a tempo...so it would slow down, then he'd speed up like crazy on the repeated half notes...when it came to the bassoon solo, the ensemble was a disaster, everyone, esp strings, strewn all over the score. I had no idea where the downbeat was, so I followed the stick and jumped in...I 2ble tongue, and the tempo was flying....it came out ok, but I thought I screwed up, and entered incorrectly....but, when I heard the performance tape, the bassoon is fine (it IS the tune, after all), everybody else sounds all over the map!!

I put various excerpts of this lick from different recordings on a tape for comparison, with our "rocket sled" sample in the middle, and played it for my colleagues...so many musicians commented <<who is that crazy man going a million mph??!!>> lol!!


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## Merl

I love the 4th (but I love all the LvB symphonies - really, Merl?). It comes after the 7th, 9th and 8th, for me. I particularly enjoy the two outer movements and love that first movement the best. Yep, I even love it more than the 3rd, 5th and 6th!


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## CnC Bartok

It is slightly overlooked, but I adore it. No.7 and this one are my favourite Beethoven Symphonies, an elegant and beautiful ballerina among the Nine. The second movement is a personal love, although it does work better in old-fashioned non-HIP performance.


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## Bigbang

Enthusiast said:


> I love the work but have found that really good performances of it are more rare than any of the others. It seems a little elusive.


That sums it up for me. In a way, I am wondering if the symphony is being overplayed, as if trying to approach it like the other symphonies, that is, each conductor of a cycle is using the same formula but in other approaches the conductor takes it on as it is without trying to add something not there. But we have members who like it obviously (that is, they agree with the many interpretations of it).


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## Enthusiast

^ I have listened to a few over the last couple of days. I am generally not prone to remaining imprinted on my first recording but did find Toscanini's recording from the 50s - which was my first recording of Beethoven 4 - to be extremely successful. Vanska also has something to say as does Harnoncourt in his later Concentus Musicus recording.


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## flamencosketches

I'm ready to call Beethoven's 4th my favorite of his symphonies. I love everything about it, but especially the Adagio. I love the Bernstein/New York recording on Sony. I also have the Walter/Columbia coming to me soon.

Anyone with me?


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## adriesba

flamencosketches said:


> I'm ready to call Beethoven's 4th my favorite of his symphonies. I love everything about it, but especially the Adagio. I love the Bernstein/New York recording on Sony. I also have the Walter/Columbia coming to me soon.
> 
> Anyone with me?


Beethoven's 9th symphony makes it virtually impossible to call any of his symphonies other than the 9th my favorite. But I definitely like the 4th a lot. That's why I started this thread.

I have the Bernstein recording you mentioned, but I'm not sure that I have actually listened to it yet. I guess it's time. Bernstein's recording of the 9th with the New York Philharmonic unfortunately turned me off from anything conducted by him for a long time. I'm finally beginning to appreciate his conducting more.


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## flamencosketches

adriesba said:


> Beethoven's 9th symphony makes it virtually impossible to call any of his symphonies other than the 9th my favorite. But I definitely like the 4th a lot. That's why I started this thread.
> 
> I have the Bernstein recording you mentioned, but I'm not sure that I have actually listened to it yet. I guess it's time. Bernstein's recording of the 9th with the New York Philharmonic unfortunately turned me off from anything conducted by him for a long time. I'm finally beginning to appreciate his conducting more.


I haven't heard his Beethoven 9, but I'm not in a hurry to do so. I once saw a video of Bernstein talking to a friend, seated at the piano, wherein he made some comments about Beethoven that gave me the impression that he didn't understand Beethoven all too well. It put me off Lenny's Beethoven for a good little while. But it turns out he totally does understand, and really he has a beautiful way with Beethoven when he wants to, and he was just talking out of his *** in that video.  In any case, Bernstein is one of my favorite conductors. I love his Mahler.

If you do listen to that recording, let me know what you think. Personally, I think it's really good.


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## Guest

This Beethoven #4 is a good one - as is the absolute piece of eye candy standing on the podium!! I adore this symphony.


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## Bigbang

I have been listening to Kleiber's live 4th in the last few days, must have been years since I last heard. There is something he does in the interpretations that make this come alive. Here in the video he is really into the music itself. No wonder he made a recording of it.


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## Bigbang

flamencosketches said:


> I'm ready to call Beethoven's 4th my favorite of his symphonies. I love everything about it, but especially the Adagio. I love the Bernstein/New York recording on Sony. I also have the Walter/Columbia coming to me soon.
> 
> Anyone with me?


At the speed you move at, uh, no! But, the Walter is given some reviews in Penguin but I have yet to warm up to it as much as his Pastoral. I have Bernstein and need to give it a listen and see if I am missing anything. Found Leinsdorf 4+5 and started on that one in the car.


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## Guest

Bigbang said:


> I have been listening to Kleiber's live 4th in the last few days, must have been years since I last heard. There is something he does in the interpretations that make this come alive. Here in the video he is really into the music itself. No wonder he made a recording of it.


It's a glorious symphony. Kleiber was, of course, mainly a conductor of operas and his symphonic recordings are few and far between (but there are some pirate recordings about the place from his early performances of Schubert). I've read Charles Barber's book, "*Conversations with Carlos*" and it is comprised mainly of letters exchanged between Kleiber and Barber from 1989 to 2003. Barber also makes his own contribution too. But in those letters you can see a self-effacing conductor who never felt he was more than a 'stick waver' - but he could get into arguments over musical points, such as the Allegretto in Symphony #7 Beethoven and the treatment of those appoggiaturas. It's a point of differentiation between Kleiber and others when you listen to what he does in that particular movement.

But getting back to the 4th Symphony of LvB: it absolutely soars in particular sections of the 1st movement. There is also a playfulness and the inventiveness with which he uses the smallest motivic fragments to create drama, tossing them amongst the instruments and then having them play against each other: incredible!! The 2nd movement (Adagio) is utterly sublime; the surging 2nd theme arising out of preternatural calm and serenity of the 1st is absolutely.... well, I'm just thunderstruck. That's why Beethoven is the M-A-N.

Beethoven + Kleiber = get me the smelling salts!!!!

Kleiber was an intensely intellectual man with a great sense of humour and the ultimate polymath who had at least 4 fluent languages. As a pure indulgence, and outside the brief of this discussion, I'm including a wonderful conducting performance of Kleiber with "Der Rosenkavalier" from 1973. At the start of the Act 3 you can see him reflecting every orchestral effect with his baton and hands. This is detail to the last degree of finesse: and the audiences loved it!! From *57:00* here:


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## flamencosketches

Bigbang said:


> At the speed you move at, uh, no! But, the Walter is given some reviews in Penguin but I have yet to warm up to it as much as his Pastoral. I have Bernstein and need to give it a listen and see if I am missing anything. Found Leinsdorf 4+5 and started on that one in the car.


:lol: Touché.

Let us know what you think if you get around to hearing the Bernstein/NY. It's really good I think. I think the reason I favor the 4th so much may have something to do with burnout of all the "usual suspects". It's difficult for me to listen to the 3rd, 5th, 7th, 9th & even the 6th with a straight face all the way through. I do love those symphonies, but the 4th just feels all the more fresh. I love the 8th for similar reason.

Walter's Pastoral I have on vinyl and I think it's an excellent performance. Getting it on CD was a must, but the 4th is a bonus.


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## Bigbang

flamencosketches said:


> :lol: Touché.
> 
> Let us know what you think if you get around to hearing the Bernstein/NY. It's really good I think. I think the reason I favor the 4th so much may have something to do with burnout of all the "usual suspects". It's difficult for me to listen to the 3rd, 5th, 7th, 9th & even the 6th with a straight face all the way through. I do love those symphonies, but the 4th just feels all the more fresh. I love the 8th for similar reason.
> 
> Walter's Pastoral I have on vinyl and I think it's an excellent performance. Getting it on CD was a must, but the 4th is a bonus.


I listened to Bernstein 4th tonight (forgot what it was like). I did like it and the adagio is played with great feeling too. In a way, I had the same experience as when I listened to Keiber 4th. I am multitasking but I am aware I am being pulled in to the music. Other versions can be a turn off. Right now I am on a kick to keep hearing all the 4ths I have and get some idea of how to rank them for myself. BTW, I was looking for something and came across a website of Beethoven 4th being ranked. This guy seems to be partial to period instruments as his favorite way of approaching the music. Regardless I will seek a few period to rehear the 4th....wait as I was typing this I remember I own Nimbus..hanoverband Roy Goodman, will have to dig it up...bought years ago. And Hogwood to compare. Then off to stream a few, like Gardiner.


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## flamencosketches

Bigbang said:


> I listened to Bernstein 4th tonight (forgot what it was like). I did like it and the adagio is played with great feeling too. In a way, I had the same experience as when I listened to Keiber 4th. I am multitasking but I am aware I am being pulled in to the music. Other versions can be a turn off. Right now I am on a kick to keep hearing all the 4ths I have and get some idea of how to rank them for myself. BTW, I was looking for something and came across a website of Beethoven 4th being ranked. This guy seems to be partial to period instruments as his favorite way of approaching the music. Regardless I will seek a few period to rehear the 4th....wait as I was typing this I remember I own Nimbus..hanoverband Roy Goodman, will have to dig it up...bought years ago. And Hogwood to compare. Then off to stream a few, like Gardiner.


The Gardiner of course is a very famous set. It's _the_ Beethoven HIP cycle for a lot of people. I haven't heard much of it myself but I think I ought to change that. Write back here with what you think. I think I'm going to listen to the Wyn Morris/London Beethoven 4 later.


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## starthrower

I never listened to the 4th until I bought the Bernstein NYP cycle. But now it's tops on my list. The opening really draws me in and gets me focused on listening in a different way that some of the others. It's more subtle than the famous three that follow.


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## Merl

flamencosketches said:


> The Gardiner of course is a very famous set. It's _the_ Beethoven HIP cycle for a lot of people. I haven't heard much of it myself but I think I ought to change that. Write back here with what you think. I think I'm going to listen to the Wyn Morris/London Beethoven 4 later.


Personally, I like the Gardiner but know others don't feel the same. I think you need to listen first. I have no problems with tempi but that's not what matters,. I just think he gets the pacing right and it's always moving forward. He certainly has a Karajan-esque sense of rhythm. However, I've not listened to it in ages so who knows I may have changed my mind about it. I know that doesn't help.


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## BlackAdderLXX

Great thread. I'm subscribing for later. I guess I'm doing a survey of all the other than 5th symphonies. I'll hit this one after I've listened to a few more recordings of #6.


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## adriesba

BlackAdderLXX said:


> Great thread. I'm subscribing for later. I guess I'm doing a survey of all the other than 5th symphonies. I'll hit this one after I've listened to a few more recordings of #6.


Thanks. I'd love to read your thoughts on 4th and 6th recordings. 

Will you be posting your recommendations for the 6th on any particular thread?


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## BlackAdderLXX

adriesba said:


> Thanks. I'd love to read your thoughts on 4th and 6th recordings.
> 
> Will you be posting your recommendations for the 6th on any particular thread?


Thanks. I don't really know. I guess this one since it's got so much appreciation. It's a year old but there's a lot of good stuff there.


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## adriesba

flamencosketches, I listened to that Bernstein recording you recommended. I liked it a lot! It was quite fun and energetic with tempo choices that I liked. I don't have anything bad to say about it. I'm glad to have it in my collection and finally give it a listen! I'd definitely listen to it again.


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## pianozach

Glad to see the 4th getting the love it deserves.

I think it may be because most of the others have been overplayed.


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## BlackAdderLXX

I've listened to the 4th several times now, Walter, Harnoncourt and Herreweghe. I must not be in the right mood because I haven't found anything in it to grab me. I guess I'm realizing that though that I need more patience with works like this and Pastoral because they aren't the raw displays of power I expected from Beethoven. They're both great pieces I guess I need to stay with it.


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## flamencosketches

BlackAdderLXX said:


> I've listened to the 4th several times now, Walter, Harnoncourt and Herreweghe. I must not be in the right mood because I haven't found anything in it to grab me. I guess I'm realizing that though that I need more patience with works like this and Pastoral because they aren't the raw displays of power I expected from Beethoven. They're both great pieces I guess I need to stay with it.


Try the Bernstein/New York Philharmonic on Sony. That's the one that did it for me.


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## Bigbang

flamencosketches said:


> The Gardiner of course is a very famous set. It's _the_ Beethoven HIP cycle for a lot of people. I haven't heard much of it myself but I think I ought to change that. Write back here with what you think. I think I'm going to listen to the Wyn Morris/London Beethoven 4 later.


Well, I just listen to Solti and I prefered the first one from the 1970's over the 1980's. Frankly I am ready to admit I like it over Bohm and Walter but will compare in the days to come.


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## BlackAdderLXX

flamencosketches said:


> Try the Bernstein/New York Philharmonic on Sony. That's the one that did it for me.


Is that the 60s cycle?


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## flamencosketches

BlackAdderLXX said:


> Is that the 60s cycle?


Yep from the '60s. I want to say the 4th was recorded in roughly 1969 but I could be misremembering.


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## adriesba

flamencosketches said:


> Yep from the '60s. I want to say the 4th was recorded in roughly 1969 but I could be misremembering.


The CD sleeve on mine says recorded 1962 and (P) 1969.

View attachment 134700


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## BlackAdderLXX

flamencosketches said:


> Yep from the '60s. I want to say the 4th was recorded in roughly 1969 but I could be misremembering.





adriesba said:


> The CD sleeve on mine says recorded 1962 and (P) 1969.
> 
> View attachment 134700


Thank you both. I'll look for it on Amazon Music.


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## flamencosketches

adriesba said:


> The CD sleeve on mine says recorded 1962 and (P) 1969.
> 
> View attachment 134700


Thanks for clarifying. I didn't have the CD in front of me when I wrote that.


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## adriesba

flamencosketches said:


> Thanks for clarifying. I didn't have the CD in front of me when I wrote that.


Does the (P) mean they didn't release it till 1969?


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## flamencosketches

adriesba said:


> Does the (P) mean they didn't release it till 1969?


I would assume so. Published?


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## adriesba

flamencosketches said:


> I would assume so. Published?


I was thinking that. 
The (C) and (P) just confuse me.


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## D Smith

A P inside a circle refers to sound recording copyright meaning that particular recording of the symphony was copyrighted in 1969 though the actual recording may have been earlier. A C inside a circle © refers to the copyright of the actual work.


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## BlackAdderLXX

flamencosketches said:


> Try the Bernstein/New York Philharmonic on Sony. That's the one that did it for me.


I posted this on the current listening, but wanted to say here in this thread as well that The Bernstein NYP recording is the best I've heard so far. I really got a lot more out of it than the others I have tried. Of course, what do I know, but this is a great performance.


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## BlackAdderLXX

Saw in another Beethoven thread that Wand's 4th is well regarded too. I'm listening to it now. I have to say I like it a lot. It doesn't hurt that I'm also becoming more familiar with this work. So far I think Bernstein NY and Wand are the best recordings I've heard. I need to dig up a couple of old scratchy versions as well since I'm apparently getting into this symphony.

Btw not sure if this news but I saw a Bernstein album on Amazon that has all the symphonies for $10. Amazon didn't have the information but I checked another site and it listed this as the NYP cycle.

https://www.amazon.com/Bernstein-Co...coding=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=DSHTZZDK70ZFSDWWW826


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## flamencosketches

BlackAdderLXX said:


> Saw in another Beethoven thread that Wand's 4th is well regarded too. I'm listening to it now. I have to say I like it a lot. It doesn't hurt that I'm also becoming more familiar with this work. So far I think Bernstein NY and Wand are the best recordings I've heard. I need to dig up a couple of old scratchy versions as well since I'm apparently getting into this symphony.
> 
> Btw not sure if this news but I saw a Bernstein album on Amazon that has all the symphonies for $10. Amazon didn't have the information but I checked another site and it listed this as the NYP cycle.
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/Bernstein-Co...coding=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=DSHTZZDK70ZFSDWWW826


Wow, that is quite the deal. Good find. I have almost the whole cycle on CD or I would go for it.


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## BlackAdderLXX

flamencosketches said:


> Wow, that is quite the deal. Good find. I have almost the whole cycle on CD or I would go for it.


I think it's some sort of anniversary reissue from this year. Count me sold!


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## Merl

BlackAdderLXX said:


> Saw in another Beethoven thread that Wand's 4th is well regarded too. I'm listening to it now. I have to say I like it a lot. It doesn't hurt that I'm also becoming more familiar with this work. So far I think Bernstein NY and Wand are the best recordings I've heard. I need to dig up a couple of old scratchy versions as well since I'm apparently getting into this symphony.
> 
> Btw not sure if this news but I saw a Bernstein album on Amazon that has all the symphonies for $10. Amazon didn't have the information but I checked another site and it listed this as the NYP cycle.
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/Bernstein-Co...coding=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=DSHTZZDK70ZFSDWWW826


The Wand set came up on Ebay really cheap, secondhand a few weeks ago
I hit it by getting the individual discs years ago. Hardly cost anything.


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## Helgi

I love the 4th as well. Been listening to a few of those that I have; Wand, Gardiner and P. Järvi.

I enjoy them all, but if I had to pick one right now it would be Järvi w/DKB. It's nimble and energetic but there's also a fullness to the sound and a sense of drama that I like. That and it's very well recorded.


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## Helgi

And then there's Furtwängler. Just listened to No. 4 with BPO from 1943 and the energy and atmosphere of these performances is always so refreshing.


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## vincula

I must admit the 4th's one of Beethoven's symphonies I spin more often. Furtwängler's reading is a personal favourite, even though I've got many others (Walter, Klemperer, Konwitschny, Tennstedt, Kegel, etc). 

André Cluytens on EMI deserves an audition too. Different "classic" take.

Regards,

Vincula


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## Judith

I love this symphony also. 
You're going to groan now lol but the recording I love is
asmf
Joshua Bell


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## Merl

Judith said:


> I love this symphony also.
> You're going to groan now lol but the recording I love is
> asmf
> Joshua Bell


Nothing wrong with that Bell disc. Its fresh, well-realised and well recorded. No groaning from me, Judith.


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## Judith

Merl said:


> Nothing wrong with that Bell disc. Its fresh, well-realised and well recorded. No groaning from me, Judith.


Saw them perform this live two years ago at the proms in London. Was amazing


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## Eclectic Al

I have a preference for works that were composed on commission and constrained to appeal to someone. They may be less self-indulgent than works which a composer is able to produce for personal satisfaction. Just a thought from someone who doesn't personally like having too much choice is his own life. Much better to do things for the benefit of others. Otherwise composers can just get a bit up themselves.


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## poconoron

Beethoven's 7th and 4th have long been my favorites. The woodwind parts in the 4th are just _exquisite. _


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## KenOC

My favorite 4th is Walter's with the Columbia SO. It's a great match to his Pastoral. The entire cycle in good Sony remasters used to be available on Amazon as a download for $7.95, but last time I checked I couldn't find it. Anybody?


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## KenOC

Eclectic Al said:


> I have a preference for works that were composed on commission and constrained to appeal to someone. They may be less self-indulgent than works which a composer is able to produce for personal satisfaction. Just a thought from someone who doesn't personally like having too much choice is his own life. Much better to do things for the benefit of others. Otherwise composers can just get a bit up themselves.


The 4th qualifies. Count von Oppersdorff offered a "substantial sum" for a new symphony, more like the 2nd symphony (it is said) than the recent Eroica. Beethoven interrupted work on his 5th, which was well advanced, to write the 4th. It pleased the Count quite well.

Beethoven's works were not always so well received by those who commissioned them. Prince Esterhazy, son of Haydn's patron, commissioned a mass from Beethoven for his wife's nameday. Close to outrage, he wrote: "Beethoven's mass is unbearably ridiculous and detestable, and I am not convinced that it can ever be performed properly. I am angry and mortified."

It is not recorded whether Beethoven offered a money-back guarantee. :lol:


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## Guest

The forth didn't make a strong impression on me until I heard the Immerseel recording, which blew me away.


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## Gray Bean

I love the 4th! That strange, mysterious opening is totally unique and the finale is an unparalleled delight. I always wait in joyful expectation for that bassoon solo! I agree that Walter and Furtwangler are absolutely masterful in this music. (And Walter's B6 is a wonder, too!)


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## adriesba

KenOC said:


> My favorite 4th is Walter's with the Columbia SO. It's a great match to his Pastoral. The entire cycle in good Sony remasters used to be available on Amazon as a download for $7.95, but last time I checked I couldn't find it. Anybody?


Is this the set you're talking about?

https://www.amazon.com/Bruno-Walter-Conducts-Beethoven/dp/B017I51J9A

It's more than $7.95.


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## KenOC

adriesba said:


> Is this the set you're talking about?
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/Bruno-Walter-Conducts-Beethoven/dp/B017I51J9A
> 
> It's more than $7.95.


Negatory. I don't k now if those are the remasters or not.


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## adriesba

KenOC said:


> Negatory. I don't k now if those are the remasters or not.


I see that particular compilation was released in 2015. I'm not sure if it's remastered though. I do see individual albums like this: 
https://www.amazon.com/Beethoven-Symphonies-Remastered-Bruno-Walter/dp/B07YSHWSX9

That is from 2019, and it says it's remastered. But I don't see a compilation from 2019, and even the individual albums are more than $7.95.

I'm guessing the remastered ones are not available as one set.


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## Malx

KenOC said:


> Negatory. I don't k now if those are the remasters or not.


That box set indicates the recordings are 24 bit so I suspect they are remasters.


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## Brahmsianhorn

I like recordings that bring out the power of the 4th. Furtwanger '43 and Klemperer live '57 on Testament are my favorites. Among stereo versions by favorite is Karajan '62, sleek and powerful. Also Bohm and Walter.


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## BlackAdderLXX

KenOC said:


> My favorite 4th is Walter's with the Columbia SO. It's a great match to his Pastoral. The entire cycle in good Sony remasters used to be available on Amazon as a download for $7.95, but last time I checked I couldn't find it. Anybody?


I completely agree with you on his 4th. It's wonderful.



adriesba said:


> I see that particular compilation was released in 2015. I'm not sure if it's remastered though. I do see individual albums like this:
> https://www.amazon.com/Beethoven-Symphonies-Remastered-Bruno-Walter/dp/B07YSHWSX9
> 
> That is from 2019, and it says it's remastered. But I don't see a compilation from 2019, and even the individual albums are more than $7.95.
> 
> I'm guessing the remastered ones are not available as one set.


I looked around and couldn't get this information in the description, but I remembered seeing that it was remastered from when I bought it. Anyway, I found this in the amazon reviews. It's not definitive but it's good enough for me to have spent the $20 on the box set.



> *Superb Performances of Beethoven Symphonies & Violin Concerto in Excellent 24-Bit Remastered Sound*
> Reviewed in the United States on February 15, 2020
> Verified Purchase
> Over the years I've collected about a dozen Beethoven Symphony cycles and Bruno Walter's cycle with the Columbia Symphony Orchestra, recorded in 1958-1959, is one of three I consider indispensable. The other two are George Szell with the Cleveland Orchestra and Otto Klemperer with the Philharmonia/New Philharmonia Orchestra. I'd add a fourth cycle when considering only the SACD versions - Karajan's 1960s cycle (ASIN: B0000C03AH) or his 1977 cycle [available in Japan - JAN/ISBN 4988031273685 - this is a Super High Material (SHM) single layer SACD set which can only be played on an SACD player; it has been available on the Amazon Japan site; if you cannot find it there try "CDJapan" site].
> 
> The Violin Concerto - a marvelous addition to this symphony cycle -- was recorded in January, 1961.
> 
> To my ear Walter's performance of the 6th Symphony with the Columbia Symphony Orchestra is the most enjoyable on the market. In that context I found another review's mentioning that an authority on Beethoven, Burnett James, singles out Walter's 4th as the peak of his cycle interesting; while I would not disagree with placing Walter's performance of the 4th with the Columbia Symphony as among "reference" recordings of that Symphony, Walter's performance of the 6th Symphony is, in my opinion, the peak of this cycle.
> 
> Walter's performances of the 2nd, 3rd and 4th Symphonies and the Violin Concerto (with Zino Francescatti) also rank, in my opinion, among the most enjoyable on the market and his performances of the 1st and 8th Symphonies are also superb. To my ear his performances of the 7th, 9th and 5th Symphonies are also very enjoyable - albeit some of the criticisms in other reviews regarding his performance of the 5th are certainly valid. All in all, music is very subjective and while I do not consider this performance of the 5th Symphony to approach "reference" recording levels, it is one I enjoy and return to.
> 
> While these recordings are "dated" in a historical sense, most being recorded in 1958-1959, I find the sound quality of these 24-Bit Remasterings excellent and when one considers the very low price, I submit they are a great value. There are several options for listeners seeking potentially better audio quality.
> 
> The first option is to google "High Definition Tape Transfers (HDTT)." Thus far HDTT has issued (to the best of my knowledge) all the Walter/Columbia Symphony performances except the 8th. I purchased two HDTT CDs. One contained the 1st and 7th Symphonies. The sound quality throughout the 1st Symphony and the fist three movements of the 7th Symphony is excellent; for whatever reason my sense is the sound quality of the 7th Symphony final movement reflects a significant drop off in sound quality. Moreover, I don't sense that drop-off in the 24-Bit Remastering or the SACD version noted below. The second HDTT CD I purchased contains Walter's 3rd Symphony and the sound quality on that CD is uniformly excellent. All that said, HDTT CDs are about $20 a piece, they are thus not cheap and I would not say there is a major increase in quality over these excellent 24-Bit Remasterings.
> 
> The second option is Sony International in Japan issued a 9-CD SACD box set [ASIN: B07WZHJN44; JAN: 4547366425031] in late November, 2019. It is expensive, the (Japanese Yen equivalent of) about $180.00. The SACDs in that box set are "Hybrid SACD" - meaning they can also be played on a regular CD player. Please note the SACD version of Walter's 6th Symphony (which I purchased years ago and is superb) is not a hybrid and plays only on SACD players. Those new hybrid SACDs from Sony International offer - playing them on an SACD player -- a significant improvement in sound quality. That 9-CD SACD box set includes the performances in the 24-Bit Remastered box set and two discs of Walter Rehearsals. In saying that Sony International SACD Hybrid box set is a significant sound quality upgrade I in no way mean to detract from the sound quality of this 24-Bit Remastered box set; it is, as mentioned, excellent and given the significant cost of that SACD box set many listeners may reasonably prefer this 24-Bit Remastering box set.
> 
> Overall, this Beethoven Symphony Cycle (along with a superb performance of the Violin Concerto) earns the highest recommendation.


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## Gray Bean

Wow! I just got this box last week. Wonderful! I especially love the rehearsal disc. It’s a steal and the remastering is a real success. I love Walter in Beethoven and the Columbia SO play their hearts out for him.


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## UniversalTuringMachine

Beethoven 4th and 8th are so underrated (because they are classical in spirit). 4th is full of witty moments.


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