# Underrated Composers of the Classical Era



## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

Who are some? Thanks in advance TC!


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

hammeredklavier said:


> "I thought to myself, 'May thy pure and peaceful spirit hover around me, dear Haydn! If I can ever become like thee, peaceful and guileless, in all matters none on earth has such deep reverence for thee as I have.' (Sad tears fell from my eyes, and we went on.)"
> [P.138 from 'Franz Schubert: A Biography' by Henry Frost]


"The original score of Andromeda e Perseo dates from March 1787, but it features an alternative German text in an unknown hand, which suggests that perhaps the opera was later revived as a sort of Singspiel. Reinhard Goebel chooses this German version for starting his investigation of works mentioned in the Mozart family's correspondence. In this instance, Leopold Mozart wrote that Haydn had "no genius for theatrical music", although on the evidence of this lean performance by the Saarbrücken Radio Symphony Orchestra that assessment seems to be a transparent example of Leopold's spiteful jealousy." -David Vickers (Gramophone)



hammeredklavier said:


> What I've found especially memorable about the work are the fluid juxtaposition of solos and choruses in the "Uns erhalte, uns regiere" (15:48), the harmonies of the extended arias such as the "Es ist nicht g'nug" (25:52), and the drama of the "Gedenk an Sinai" (32:59):
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## ORigel (May 7, 2020)

Samuel Wesley was an English composer of hymns and organ music.






Joseph Martin Kraus composed this famous (around here, anyway) symphony:






For a long time, this serenade for string quartet was thought to have been composed by Haydn, but it was actually by his contemporary Roman Hoffstetter:






Michael Haydn's Requiem is popular on TC. It sounds Mozartian.






Cipriani Potter is a very early Romantic composer. I found his Symphony no. 6 on here. It's a must-listen, in my view:






Finally, I don't enjoy the music of Franz Danzi, but a couple on here have praised his music:


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## Bruckner Anton (Mar 10, 2016)

I am thinking of good composers that were overshadowed by the great three - Haydn, Mozart and Beethoven and the list just goes non-stop (strictly speaking, some of them might not be classical-era composers):
Gluck, JC Bach, CPE Bach, Hummel, Boccherini, Clementi, Cherubini, Spohr, Viotti, Cimarosa, M.Haydn, Dittersdorf, Salieri, Devienne, Abel, Dussek, Rosetti, Field, Onslow, Moscheles etc.
So many good pieces from the classical period that are rarely performed today. Pitty.


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

All 18th century composers other than Haydn, Mozart and Beethoven night be considered underrated. The problem is that their music all sounds the same.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

SanAntone said:


> The problem is that their music all sounds the same.


How? Can you elaborate on your point a bit?


hammeredklavier said:


> 1. the sense to utilize dissonance in sequential passages:
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> 
> ...





hammeredklavier said:


> Some people talk as if the 4th movement is all about the fugato coda, but I'm also trigued by expressions like
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> 
> which are not part of the language of the other two members of the so-called 'Viennese school'


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

ORigel said:


> Michael Haydn's Requiem is popular on TC. It sounds Mozartian.


To be honest, I didn't know this was really good until I heard Raphaël Pichon's version.


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

hammeredklavier said:


> How? Can you elaborate on your point a bit?


Umm ... all except *Michael Haydn*.

M. Haydn is possibly the most underrated composer of all. The tragedy of living in the shadow of his older brother, while he wrote masterpiece after masterpiece only to see his work go essentially unacknowledged. This is a staggering demonstration of fortitude and resilience and it is our obligation to end this historical injustice by pointing out at every opportunity - and then some - the superiority of his music.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

Holzbauer - I've noticed in his music, a certain spontaneous tendency for major/minor mode shifts and a preference for the flute as a leading role in orchestral works. Mass in C is unusual for its long orchestral introduction. Günther von Schwarzburg is noteworthy for its recitative accompaniments. 
"Holzbauer′s music is very beautiful, but the poetry is not worthy of such music. What surprises me the most is, that so old a man as Holzbauer [66 years] should still have so much spirit, for the opera is incredibly full of fire." -Mozart (in letter to his father, from Manheim, 5 November 1777)


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

hammeredklavier said:


> *Franz Ignaz von Beecke* (28 October 1733 - 2 January 1803) was a classical music composer born in Wimpfen am Neckar, Germany. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franz_Ignaz_von_Beecke
> Von Beecke served in the Bavarian Dragoon Regiment of Zollern from 1756, during which time he fought in the Seven Years' War. He served with distinction and was promoted to Captain. He was known at the time chiefly for his great skill in playing the harpsichord, although he composed a wide range of music as well, having studied with Christoph Willibald Gluck. He died in Wallerstein, Germany.
> 
> 
> ...


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## Rogerx (Apr 27, 2018)

Moritz Moszkowski has a wonderful piano concerto , Antonio Salieri , you know the myth, he killed Mozart .
Johann Nepomuk Hummel has wonderful work. 
Happy listening.


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

Rogerx said:


> Antonio Salieri , you know the myth, he killed Mozart


This made me think my whole sub-conscience purpose with this thread was to let me know my real favorite movie is Amadeus, not Eraserhead.


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## Aries (Nov 29, 2012)

Luigi Cherubini


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## joen_cph (Jan 17, 2010)

- F. *Krommer Kramar,* clarinet concertos & symphonies

- J.C. *Arriaga*, three string quartets, incl. no.2

- J.M. *Kraus*, symphonies, incl. in c-minor /Sunnkvist

- P. *Wranitzky*, symphonies

- B.H. *Crusell*, clarinet works

- G.A. *Benda*, piano sonatas /Piricone

- D.F. *Kuhlau* generally, including chamber and flute music (piano quartets, flute quintets, flute works), Piano Concerto, Elverhøj.

- J.D. *Bomtempo*, Requiem /Rögner

- G. *Onslow,* chamber music

- *Sterndale Bennett*, piano concertos



> Moritz Moszkowski has a wonderful piano concerto


But Moszkowsky is much later. There's a fine Ponti recording of one of *Mosonyi*'s piano concertos in that old Turnabout/Vox/Brilliant Classics series, however.

And, as said above, Johann Nepomuk *Hummel *generally.

Some might like Ferdinand *Ries'* piano concertos as well.


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## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

Almost all mid-late 18th century composers except for Haydn, Mozart, Beethoven are underrated.

The most recognized and reasonably covered on recordings are probably Gluck and Carl Philipp Emanuel Bach who are also a generation older. Gluck is mainly opera, of the ones I have heard, I think the best is not Orpheus & Euridice but Iphigenie en Tauride.

For CPE Bach I'd suggest the 6 string symphonies wq 182 and 4 late orchestral symphonies wq 183 as well as the six piano/keyboard concertos wq 43. He wrote more than 50 keyboard concertos, a few of which exist also in versions for flute, cello, oboe and an immense amount of solo keyboard.

The youngest Bach son, Johann Christian, has a quite different, very charming and melodic style. Try the mixed quintets or some of the many sinfonie concertanti for different combinations of instruments. He also wrote normal symphonies and keyboard stuff (but a lot of this is probably rightfully eclipsed by Mozart).

Of the Mozart generation, Joseph Martin Kraus is an interesting composer (sometimes called the "Swedish Mozart", although he was German but worked at the Swedish court). Try a few of his symphonies, they sound a bit "Gluckian" and more serious than typical late 18th century stuff.

Chandos has "contemporaries of Mozart" series with lots of lesser known composers from the period, played on modern instruments.

Concerto Köln has discs with Vanhal, Kozeluch, Rosetti and a few more, also worth trying out; they are usually a bit more dramatic interpretations than Bamert/Chandos.


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## joen_cph (Jan 17, 2010)

Agree of course regarding *CPE Bach*, but I think he's fairly well-known and appreciated now, also around these quarters. Tons of good and varied music.

The BIS recording of Cello Concertos with Suzuki is an absolute stunner.

Besides the fine keyboard concertos, the flute concertos are nice too. So are *Benda'*s flute concertos, BTW.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

"Several of the works he wrote subsequently achieved great popularity-most notably Ariadne auf Naxos and Medea, each described as a 'duodrama', a kind of melodrama for two performers. Indeed, having heard both pieces, Mozart wrote with some enthusiasm to his father in November 1778, extolling Benda's achievements: 'The piece I saw was Benda's Medea. He has composed another one, Ariadne auf Naxos, and both are really excellent. You know that of all the Lutheran Kapellmeisters, Benda has always been my favourite, and I like those two works of his so much that I carry them about with me.' (Mozart contemplated writing a duodrama himself-Semiramis-but never did.)" -Jeremy Nicholas (hyperion)


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

Take note of the harmonies at 4:10 (I feel 'pain' at 5:00 and 'consolation' at 5:27). The slow movement in a major key is so sad; the harmonies at 9:20, and the interplay of wind solos at 10:45. The contrapuntal acrobatics (17:30) in the third, final movement are also dazzling. I think he's especially good at this sort of stuff (as an organist); building up with contrapuntal dissonance and climaxing with a pedal - kind of reminds me of the Domine jesu from Mozart's Requiem.


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## joen_cph (Jan 17, 2010)

hammeredklavier said:


> Take note of the harmonies at 4:10 (I feel 'pain' at 5:00 and 'consolation' at 5:27). The slow movement in a major key is so sad; the harmonies at 9:20, and the interplay of wind solos at 10:45. The contrapuntal acrobatics (17:30) in the third, final movement are also dazzling. I think he's especially good at this sort of stuff (as an organist); building up with contrapuntal dissonance and climaxing with a pedal - kind of reminds me of the Domine jesu from Mozart's Requiem.


I didn't like the big Brilliant Michael Haydn box, but I'll probably be buying those Warchal recordings of symphonies on CPO, they seem better ...


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## fluteman (Dec 7, 2015)

Franz Danzi (1763-1826)
Alessandro Rolla (1757-1841)
Georg Anton Benda (1722-1795)


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## BrahmsWasAGreatMelodist (Jan 13, 2019)

Mozart is underrated as he is not universally regarded as #1.


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## Doublestring (Sep 3, 2014)

*Franz Xaver Richter* and *Johann Stamitz* from the Mannheim School wrote great classical symphonies long before Papa Haydn "invented" the genre. I think they can compete with Haydn in quality too. Who cares that they don't have a menuet?

E.g.
Richter - Symphony No. 4 in C Major
Richter - Symphony No. 69 in A Major 
Stamitz - Sinfonia in A Major "Mannheim No. 2" 

Their concertos are good as well.

E.g.
Richter - Trumpet Concerto in D Major
Stamitz - Flute Concerto No. 1 in D Major


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

Doublestring said:


> Franz Xaver Richter and Johann Stamitz from the Mannheim School wrote great classical symphonies long before Papa Haydn "invented" the genre. I think they can compete with Haydn in quality too. Who cares that they don't have a menuet?


Here are some "sizable" symphonies with or without minuets, written in the early 1760s. Total playing time (with some of the repeats taken) indicated inside brackets []:
F.I. Beck (a different guy from F.I. Beecke) symphony Op.3 No.3 in G minor (1762) [18:05] 




F.X. Richter sinfonia con fuga in G minor (1760) [19:13] 




M. Haydn symphony No.8 in D (1764) [25:45] 




J.C. Cannabich (another guy from the Mannheim school) symphony in G (1760) [19:39] 







joen_cph said:


> I didn't like the big Brilliant Michael Haydn box, but I'll probably be buying those Warchal recordings of symphonies on CPO, they seem better ...


I don't really think highly of that box either. For instance, the performance of the MH189 string quintet by the Salzburger Haydn Quartet sounds too "light" and lacks "emotional weight" in passages where it is needed. (compared to the performance by Das Wiener Philharmonia Quintett: 



) The performance of Missa sancti Aloysii by Éva Marton, Györ Philharmonic Orchestra & Miklós Szabó doesn't really capture the sense of innocence and piety in terms of vocal tone quality (compared to the one by Gudrun Schroefel & Mädchenchor Hannover).


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

hammeredklavier said:


> Take note of the harmonies at 4:10 (I feel 'pain' at 5:00 and 'consolation' at 5:27). ..........


Btw, a real earworm in the third, final movement (16:30), 



 (sort of similar in gesture to the "pause" of the first movement (5:27)). "The music is not in the notes, but in the silence between." (a quote attributed to Mozart, but probably inauthentic)


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## Doublestring (Sep 3, 2014)

When it comes to keyboard music *Domenico Cimarosa* has to be mentioned. His one-movement sonatas for harpsichord or fortepiano are delightful. He also wrote lots of operas and sacred music.
Cimarosa - Sonata no. 42 in D minor

Of the band of brothers *Johann Christian Bach* ("the English Bach") deserves a mention. His keyboard music is very good.
J. C. Bach - Sonata No. 5 in A Major

Not obscure, but I really like Luigi Boccherini's chamber music, especally the guitar quintets.
Guitar Quintet No. 4 in D major ("Fandango")


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## Roger Knox (Jul 19, 2017)

Bruckner Anton said:


> I am thinking of good composers that were overshadowed by the great three - Haydn, Mozart and Beethoven and the list just goes non-stop (strictly speaking, some of them might not be classical-era composers):
> Gluck, JC Bach, CPE Bach, Hummel, Boccherini, Clementi, Cherubini, Spohr, Viotti, Cimarosa, M.Haydn, Dittersdorf, Salieri, Devienne, Abel, Dussek, Rosetti, Field, Onslow, Moscheles etc.
> So many good pieces from the classical period that are rarely performed today. Pitty.


There are quite a few excellent composers here. It would be interesting to know how well-represented their music is in recordings.

You have to include opera and realize that the Italians opened the classical era. Despite Charles Rosen's stout defence, the idea that the classical era is mainly Haydn, Mozart and Beethoven is obsolete -- they represent its peak and end. Of course some composers bestride two eras, e.g. Beethoven (late classical/early romantic). I think of Spohr, Field, Moscheles and maybe Onslow as early romantic.


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## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

BrahmsWasAGreatMelodist said:


> Mozart is underrated as he is not universally regarded as #1.


Good point - I always feel - despite all the adulation heaped on Mozart - people still don't get how good he really was.

So yes - my answer is Mozart is the most underrated composer of the 18thC.

Most of the rest - except maybe M Haydn - deserve their obscurity and lack of fame.


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## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

PlaySalieri said:


> Good point - I always feel - despite all the adulation heaped on Mozart - people still don't get how good he really was.
> 
> So yes - my answer is Mozart is the most underrated composer of the 18thC.


Unfortunately, such further heaping of adulation without elaboration is rather unlikely to make people "get it", quite the opposite, it will support their impression of people just parrotting the received wisdom. It's really not clear by what measure the highest rated and most famous composer of the period would be still count as underrated. How and why?


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## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

Kreisler jr said:


> Unfortunately, such further heaping of adulation without elaboration is rather unlikely to make people "get it", quite the opposite, it will support their impression of people just parrotting the received wisdom. It's really not clear by what measure the highest rated and most famous composer of the period would be still count as underrated. How and why?


yes point taken - but I was being rhetorical based on my own feelings - and on a forum like this - we are going to see a lot of that.


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## Doublestring (Sep 3, 2014)

Interesting German composer:

Andreas Romberg - Violin Concerto No. 12 in G Minor


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## vtpoet (Jan 17, 2019)

SanAntone said:


> Umm ... all except *Michael Haydn*.
> 
> M. Haydn is possibly the most underrated composer of all. The tragedy of living in the shadow of his older brother, while he wrote masterpiece after masterpiece only to see his work go essentially unacknowledged. This is a staggering demonstration of fortitude and resilience and it is our obligation to end this historical injustice by pointing out at every opportunity - and then some - the superiority of his music.


Completely agree with this. In fact, I'd argue that M Haydn would have been the composer most capable of completing Mozart's Requiem, in the best of all alternate realities, even more so than Joseph.


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## MarkW (Feb 16, 2015)

Agree with Spohr and Kuhlau.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

vtpoet said:


> Completely agree with this. In fact, I'd argue that M Haydn would have been the composer most capable of completing Mozart's Requiem


To me, any 18th century master (besides Bach and Mozart) capable of creating "dark sounds" like these , has certain rarity value:


hammeredklavier said:


> I think the way to handle "darker shades" in this work, especially in the 3rd movement, is reminiscent of his other works such as
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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

There are only three composers from the Classical period that deserve being remembered: *Haydn*, *Mozart*, and *Beethoven*.

All the rest are pale copies of these three.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

SanAntone said:


> There are only three composers from the Classical period that deserve being remembered: *Haydn*, *Mozart*, and *Beethoven*.


The whole point of having "underrated composers" threads is people need a break from constantly hearing the same old slogans like "Bach, Mozart, Beethoven are the best of classical music", or "Haydn, Mozart, Beethoven are the best of the Classical period" ad nauseam everywhere else. I don't appreciate PlaySalieri's comment (#29) either. It's this sort of "cultism" that I don't appreciate about the classical music fandom in general. Just accept that the "great masters" didn't create their works in a vacuum, and leave it at that. I mean no offense, but Posts #5, #8, #34 make me wonder if the poster has multiple personalities or memory loss (#34 being a repetition of #5 and a refutation of #8). I would appreciate it if he tried to refrain from this sort of worrisome behavior.



> All the rest are pale copies of these three.


So in these cases, who's being a "pale copy" of the other?

M. Haydn string quintet in G (1773): 



M. Haydn symphony No.22 in D (1779): 



Mozart symphony No.41 in C (1788): 




M. Haydn symphony No.18 in C (1773): 



Mozart concerto No.20 in D minor (1785): 




M. Haydn symphony No.18 in C (1773): 



 (listen to the harmonies at 11:23)
Mozart incidental music K.345 (1779): 




M. Haydn string quintet in G (1773): 



Mozart string quartet No.14 in G (1783): 




M. Haydn string quintet in G (1773): 



Mozart string quartet No.16 in E flat (1783): 




M. Haydn symphony No.22 in D (1779): 



 (the whole movement is idiomatically similar to Le nozze di Figaro overture)
Mozart string quartet No.19 in C (1785): 




M. Haydn string quintet in F (1784): 



Mozart string quartet No.19 in C (1785): 




M. Haydn symphony No.17 in E (1771): 



Mozart concerto K.449 (1784): 







 (similar to "Ein Mädchen oder Weibchen")

M. Haydn Missa in C, 'sancti Hieronymi' (1777): 



Mozart symphony K.543 (1788): 




M. Haydn symphony No.28 in C (1784): 



Mozart symphony in C, K.551 (1788): 




Michael Haydn string quintet in C, MH187 (1773): 



Mozart K.387: 



Mozart K.458: 




M. Haydn symphony No.23 in F: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Symphony_No._23_(Michael_Haydn)
"The third movement was at first mistaken by Köchel for a work of Mozart's. Mozart did in fact copy out the first 45 measures of it (Simon Sechter completed the score of the finale). Some time afterwards, he wrote his String Quartet in G major, K. 387, with a finale that is also a fugato and also begins with a theme consisting of four whole notes first stated by the second violin."





 (G minor, 3/4 time), idiomatically reminiscent of "Ach, ich fühl's" (G minor, 6/8 time)









M. Haydn MH155 (1771): 



Mozart K.339 (1780):


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