# The same thread about Sibelius, but for Nielsen



## clavichorder (May 2, 2011)

Now, I'm not going to ask you if I should give up or not. I am merely looking for a Nielsen lover's take on his symphonic cycle and other orchestral works. How do you understand and appreciate his music? I heard the later Violin Concerto and was very impressed. Helios Overture is great too. I really want to get deep into his music, but the 4th symphony leaves me cold for some reason, even though I respect its 'magnitude.' Apart from raw persistence and cleverly spaced breaks and fresh approaches, what insights have you to offer on his music? Thanks.


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## Vesteralen (Jul 14, 2011)

I love Nielsen, but I have no insights to offer on his music. Sorry.

If you want to appreciate Nielsen, listen to all the symphonic works. And listen to each one at least half a dozen times. (Probably not in a row - but keep coming back to them.) I did not like the 4th the first time I heard it either. Love it now.

If you still don't like them - well, you just don't.


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## Vesteralen (Jul 14, 2011)

BTW, I wasn't being dismissive with my answer. I understand how you can learn to appreciate a piece of music more by better understanding. That happened to me with Brahms 2nd Piano Concerto when I heard a lecture analyzing the development of the musical phrases in the work. But, my *feelings *about the music did not change - only my appreciation.

I honestly believe that all the factors that make a person like or dislike something are strictly personal and unique to that individual, and talking about it with someone else will not change that - only personal experience will.


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## Guest (Jul 15, 2015)

I love Nielsen, have since I heard his symphony #5 on that Nonesuch recording with the cool cover.

But how to listen to him? I haven't the foggiest idea. I just do it. And if a rollercoaster ride of a symphony like the 4th is able to leave you cold, jeez, I dunno how to respond to that. It's so full of life and energy and passion. Plus there's that cracklin' dialogue between the two sets of timpanis that should have you leaping out of your seat with exhilaration.

Plus, it's really exciting.

Anyway, I do understand, really. The violin concerto leaves me cold, for instance. But the Helios Overture, that's good fun.

I guess I'll just do what I always do in this circumstance--a circumstance I do not understand, I admit--and say that it is possible to like Nielsen's music, and to like it very much, and to keep liking it after dozens of hearings. 

Nielsen's a blast. If you ever get into it successfully, you'll think it's a blast, too.

Good luck, old friend.


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## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

Robert Simpson's Carl Nielsen, Symphonist helped me. He can say it better than I can.


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## jim prideaux (May 30, 2013)

One of my favourite composers- why?. As with a number of other posts I find actually explaining these things difficult...but what I would say is that his music has some kind of 'resonance', for me personally and funnily enough in the environment I know and live in-ages ago I posted that I had spent the early morning wandering around a small and old industrial harbour near me and listened to the 5th on my I-pod-it just 'worked'(I am well aware that purists and philosophers will 'kick off', I am just recounting my experience)-Denmark is at the other side of the North Sea from here, and also oddly enough I always hear a distinct nautical element to Nielsens music......

anyway back to the real stuff-I came to appreciate Nielsen through Symphonies 1-3 initially, and have come to really 'love' the Myung Whun Chung (Bis)and Berglund recordings in particular...I accidentally piled up my Nielsen collection recently when moving stuff around and had not realised how many alternate recordings I had accumulated but those two cycles stand out-while I am seeing the 2nd performed as part of a Prom concert in August my personal favourite is the 3rd....you might want to give that a real blast!


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## Guest (Jul 15, 2015)

Two additional thumb's up from me for Chung (who never disappoints, whatever it is he conducts) and for the Berglund, who sounds uncannily to me as if it's Sibelius himself conducting.

With one exception, no one has ever come even close to the Ormandy recording of the sixth.

I love Bernstein and Blomstedt and Schønwandt. And Salonen, too, for that matter. And I love Gould's scrappy performance of the second symphony.

But, yeah. Chung and Berglund particularly. Agreed.


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## Grizzled Ghost (Jun 10, 2015)

I've had more luck with his chamber music than his symphonies or other orchestral works. So far nothing of his orchestral works has triggered more than a "pretty good" reaction. The violin sonatas, however, are quite nice.

I also like his clarinet and flute concertos. Somehow I missed the violin concerto.

I'll listen to symphonies 5 and 6 again today though − maybe one or both will grab me.

(Grieg, on the other hand, has recently become a big favorite, so maybe Nielsen is due).


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## Orfeo (Nov 14, 2013)

*Nielsen the Composer (my insights)*

Nielsen is whom I would call a craggy original. A great Dane no doubt, but daring even for his time (and one of earliest to use progressive tonality, i.e. beginning and ending a piece with different keys). His music is very physical and with sheer vitality (like Tubin) and unmistakable sweep. Even his orchestration and coloring is Nielsen's own (how many composers instruct a snare drummer to improvise so as to interrupt an orchestra as he did in his Fifth Symphony or require sections of an orchestra to play different, independent passages simultaneously, as in Aladdin?) And Unlike his near contemporaries like Sibelius, Glazunov, Atterberg, Nielsen is not known for his profound, striking beauty in his music. But there's the gracefulness that colors many of his compositions like his songs for instance. And while there's violence in some of his works during the war years, there's plenty of sparkle and even wit (as in Maskarade). And with Nielsen very philosophical about life, with such a keen sense of perspective and always looking ahead, his music, for the most part life-affirming, has that human touch: meaning his language appeals to the world beyond Denmark. Besides Wagner, I cannot think of any composers more worldly and universal than Nielsen in whatever message he communicates (Myaskovsky, otherwise personal, has a very wide appeal also, but in a different way). As what Jim Prideaux puts it so aptly above "what I would say is that his music has some kind of 'resonance'." I totally agree with his assessment: he was that psychological of a composer (like Tchaikovsky and Massenet before him, to name a couple), his music so multi-dimensional, multi-faceted, yet Nielsenian in the final analysis.

I think Nielsen's middle to early late period (1908-1922) is his best, beginning with Maskarade through his Third Symphony, through Aladdin, and finally through with his musical responses to the world of conflicts, namely his Fourth and Fifth Symphonies. His early period, his formative one, is very interesting in that he almost straight away developed his own idiom from the onset. His last period is a more older, perhaps less forgiving and more dissonant Nielsen, not as life-affirming and harder to digest (his last Symphony and Clarinet Concerto). But there's no mistake that Nielsen is one of 20th Century's greatest composers.

*The Recordings*

Nielsen is no doubt known mainly for his symphonies, and they are very well represented in the catalog. Chung's/Jarvi's BIS set is mentioned, and a very safe recommendation at that. But there are other mentions worth considering.

Erik Tuxen, Thomas Jensen, and Launy Grøndahl were the earliest conductors to record Nielsen's music, but in terms of exposing the music to the wider audience outside Denmark, Leonard Bernstein, I felt, really jump started that (not taking away the pioneering efforts of Stokowski, Horenstein, Max Rudolf, Martinon, and Morton Gould). Eugene Ormandy played a huge role in this also. Blomstedt came alone and did comprehensive surveys of Nielsen's orchestral music (first with the Danish Radio Symphony Orchestra and then with the San Francisco Symphony) while Ole Schmidt's set with the London Symphony is a milestone in its own right. By the 1980s and onward, there was really no turning back, and now there are no less than ten cycles of the symphonies and with more on the way (Gilbert just did one with the New York Philharmonic to commemorate the 150th Anniversary of his birth).

_Other mentions_

Bernstein: for this unrelenting energy and non-sentimental approach to Nielsen's rugged symphonic landscape, and yet found much humanity in the writing that's swelling. Take the beautiful second part of the Fifth Symphony's first movement for instance. And special mention must go to Elden C. Bailey, perhaps the most captivating snare drummer on record.

Bryden Thomson: for his straight-faced, unadorned approach to Nielsen, yet give the works the appropriate level of cragginess they require (the Third Symphony, for instance, which is among the best in the market in my opinion). And yet, he has something fresh to say, like in the First Symphony for instance.

Myung-whun Chung, Blomstedt & Jarvi: who share the virtues of Bernstein, but with the dynamism that does not distract from Nielsen power of communication (but enhances it instead).

Ole Schmidt: his ensemble can be scrappy, but the sheer vitality and intensity of their readings cannot be ignored.

Douglas Bostock: for his unerring sense of directness and warmth (despite balancing issues in some of the recordings).

Horenstein: Unfortunately he did not do as much Nielsen as I would have like to see, but his efforts are more than noteworthy. His recording of "Saul and David" demonstrates the level of his sympathy with the score and his understanding of the composer.

Other glowing recordings:
Zubin Mehta with the Los Angeles Philharmonic (Nielsen's Fourth).
Solonen with the Swedish Radio Symphony (Nielsen's Second & Violin Concerto, Cho-Liang Lin - soloist).
Kubelik with the Danish Radio Symphony (Nielsen's Fifth, a very fresh, insightful reading).
Ormandy with the Philadelphia (Nielsen's Sixth).
Bernstein with the Royal Danish Orchestra (Nielsen's Third).
Bernstein and the NY Phil. with Stanley Drucker (Clarinet Concerto)
Mogens Woldike and Danish State Radio Orchestra with Ib Erikson (Clarinet Concerto)
Thomas Jensen and Danish State Radio Orchestra with Gilbert-Jespersen (Flute Concerto)
Ulf Schirmer with Soloists and Danish National Royal Symphonic Orchestra and Choir (Maskarade).
Gennady Rozhdestvensky and the Danish Radio Symphony (Aladdin).
Thomas Dausgaard with the Danish Radio Symphony (Nielsen's overtures).


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

I came to Nielsen in my teens via the Bernstein 5th and was totally captivated but I couldn't tell you why. That was followed by the 3rd (also Bernstein) and 4th (Barbirolli). The others came over time. If I were to generalize about the Nielsen symphonies, I would describe the 3rd, 4th & 5th as the heart of the set. The first two are a bit like Sibelius' first two, he was still growing into his style. The 6th is a strange beast all its own and one that I still can't claim to understand.

What I have learned over the years is that the conductor can make or break a performance in a way that seems less true of other major composers, i.e. it is too easy to play the notes without getting to the heart of the work. That was, once again, made clear to me a few years ago when I had great hopes for a Berlin Philharmonic performance of the 5th with David Zinman, he just did not get it. Then about two years later, Herbert Blomstedt did it with the BPO and nailed it! Next season Rattle will do the 4th with the BPo and, having heard him do it with the Danish National, I am looking forward to it.

Regarding the shorter works, the _Helios Overture_ is really good but you should also try _Saga Drom, Pan and Syrinx_ and _A fantasy Journey to the Faroe Islands_. If you enjoy lighter opera, try his _Maskarade_.


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## Guest (Jul 16, 2015)

I love this little disc. Fantastic way to get one of the great Nielsen works, all the while getting some exposure to good ole Brett Dean while you're at it.


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## clavichorder (May 2, 2011)

Bryden Thomson's recording of no. 3 is phenomenal! I am really getting into this work thanks to that recording.


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## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

[the IMO - that should always be assumed, but ain't always]

The 4th, 5th and 6th symphonies represent the composer's reactions to WW1 and his internal solution to the damage from War's _ugliness/evil_. This isn't part of the history of Europe, it's part of Nielsen. Depending on your own understanding, it will communicate - or not.


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## Guest (Jul 17, 2015)

I am so easy to bait.

I should really work on that.

But the hook is in my mouth already, so....

However much and whatever a composer is thinking about things like wars, the job of writing music is putting different sounds together in different combinations.* I should add, whatever a composer says about what his music is supposedly communicating. In any event, if you want communication, then words are just the thing.** Pigments and frequencies, not so much. At least pigments can be arranged to represent people looking in certain ways, sad, happy, angry, dead. But aside from maybe a march or a waltz or a lullaby, to which we have agreed to confer fairly straightforward, though hopelessly general, meanings, the sounds of music just don't really cut the portraying things outside of themselves thing.

And that is one of the things I value about music. That it is more clearly, more consistently, itself and not something else. Words can be, and most often are, used to point to things that aren't words. Pigments often the same. A block of marble can be cut in such a way to look like something other than a block of marble. But music? I think Nielsen's symphonies, especially those last three to be tremendously important. Musically. To my way of thinking, saying that they represent Nielsen's reactions to WWI diminishes their importance, reduces their variety and complexity and all the many differences between them. Turns them into something not even recognizable as music. If you want to react to war, then you write polemics. With those word things I mentioned earlier. Or you paint _Guernica._ But, I hope you'll agree, even _Guernica_ transcends "reactions to the Spanish Civil War."

Anyway, if I get two cents for what I just said, I'll be happy.

*Or, more recently, setting up situations in which sounds will occur.

**though even they are pretty bad at it. Just read a thread or two on a discussion forum!


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## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

[If you were close enough, I'd toss you the 2¢.] My 'IMO' above offers a guide to emotional understanding. Some folks should avoid reading _any_ music before hearing it. Even then the score may appear behind their eyes, and doors close. I weep for them.


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## Avey (Mar 5, 2013)

clavichorder said:


> ...but the 4th symphony leaves me cold for some reason, even though I respect its 'magnitude.' Apart from *raw persistence* and cleverly spaced breaks and fresh approaches...


Like someguy before, I too am surprised to hear that the Fourth is "cold." So full of life. Actually, I love your description there, "raw persistence." That is how I would define it.

Apart from what others have said, I will point to his quartets. I know we have discussed quartets in the past, and from that interfacing we made w/r/t to certain composers, I do think *you* would enjoy his string quartets. Lovely sounding stuff. Go with the third or first.

But you may very well already be familiar with those. Disregard then.


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## clavichorder (May 2, 2011)

Avey said:


> Like someguy before, I too am surprised to hear that the Fourth is "cold." So full of life. Actually, I love your description there, "raw persistence." That is how I would define it.
> 
> Apart from what others have said, I will point to his quartets. I know we have discussed quartets in the past, and from that interfacing we made w/r/t to certain composers, I do think *you* would enjoy his string quartets. Lovely sounding stuff. Go with the third or first.
> 
> But you may very well already be familiar with those. Disregard then.


You both will be pleased to hear that I am really digging the fourth. It just took a few more listenings.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

Grizzled Ghost said:


> I've had more luck with his chamber music than his symphonies or other orchestral works. So far nothing of his orchestral works has triggered more than a "pretty good" reaction. The violin sonatas, however, are quite nice.
> 
> I also like his clarinet and flute concertos. Somehow I missed the violin concerto.
> 
> I'll listen to symphonies 5 and 6 again today though − maybe one or both will grab me.


If you enjoy wind pieces, listen closely to the first movement of symphony no. 5. What a great piece of music!


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## Triplets (Sep 4, 2014)

Manxfeeder said:


> Robert Simpson's Carl Nielsen, Symphonist helped me. He can say it better than I can.


There is a wonderful YouTube video of Simpson giving the play by play for Nielsen V/1 while Horenstein conducts.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

The Berglund, and Chung/Jarvi Nielsen symphonic sets are on sale at Presto Classical. You won't find the BIS set cheaper anywhere else. http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/r/BIS/BISCD614%2F6#listen I'm going with the Berglund set for 11 dollars. To my ears the sound is a little warmer than BIS, which strikes me as rather bright and edgy. http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/r/RCA/88875052182#listen

Presto also has Naxos titles on sale if you're interested in the Schonwandt recordings.
http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/promotion/naxos?k=2&w=Nielsen


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## Guest (Jul 18, 2015)

I find the Jarvi too inconsistent to recommend. I favor certain performances of individual pieces over Berglund's, Ormandy in the 6th and Bernstein in the 5th, for instance, but Berglund is consistently good. He's reliable.

I've only heard the Schonwandt performances once. Anyone who's heard them more than once have any opinions? Be fair, I liked my first listen to Gardiner's Beethoven set but the second hearing was not so good, and then I never listened to it again.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

The thing is, it's cheaper to buy the box sets, than to collect just the better performances by Chung or Berglund. The only set I currently own is The Danish Symphonist. Yes, it's on the cheapo Membran label, but it's one of their better quality sets in good sound. And I like the Douglas Bostock recordings.

You can find used copies of the Bernstein/Ormandy 4 disc box fairly reasonable.


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## jim prideaux (May 30, 2013)

not everyone will be happy with this idea but I have managed to accumulate a range of recordings, partially through buying second hand-Schonwandt, Chung, Berglund-with the first Blomstedt cycle I picked up a new set for 'buttons'-my original interest was inspired by the latter symphonies recorded by Blomstedt and the SFSO (unlike a lot of others I do not actually have much interest in this set now) and Leaper (Naxos)- so a range of recordings without a hole been knocked in my pocket!

I would say that I personally really enjoy the Chung Bis recordings!


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## Guest (Jul 20, 2015)

There might be a review of a Leaper performance on Amazon by my own sweet self.

I don't usually go in for negative reviews, but this one was so extraordinarily awful, I didn't want any newbies hearing this and then rejecting the music. But the music was not by Nielsen, so schtum.

Anyway, it's good to see Chung getting some love. I've never understood how he never seemed to have the kind of fame that a Bernstein or a Haitink or an Abbado had. Everything _I've_ ever heard him do was pure gold.


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## clavichorder (May 2, 2011)

What are the feelings on Gennady Rozhdestvensky's Nielsen Symphonies?


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## Guest (Jul 21, 2015)

Yeah, I'd be curious about that, too. I have a dim recollection that they were servicable but nothing more.

Hey, I know. I'll find some of those and listen to them right now.

[Be right back.]


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## clavichorder (May 2, 2011)

I want to thank Mahlerian for giving me a proper introduction to symphony no. 6. What a strange and fascinating piece!


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## Markbridge (Sep 28, 2014)

My introduction to Nielsen was in the early 70s when I was a young man. It was Ormandy's recording of the first coupled with the Helios Overture, Pan and Syrinx and A fantasy Journey to the Faroe Islands. I fell in love immediately and have never looked back. 

I remember driving 3 hours to NYC to see Mehta conduct (I'm embarrassed to say I don't remember what was on the program), and I went back stage and spoke with him. I had just recently bought his recording of Nielsen's 4th (which I still consider THE best recording of the 4th) and asked him if he was planning on doing any more Nielsen. I will never forget what Mehta told me. He said "No" because Nielsen didn't compose anything else worth recording! I was speechless, but I'm afraid that really sums up what kind of conductor Mehta is. If he really digs a piece of music, then he conducts it like a man on fire. If he doesn't dig a piece of music, then, meh.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

nathanb said:


> View attachment 72445
> 
> 
> I love this little disc. Fantastic way to get one of the great Nielsen works, all the while getting some exposure to good ole Brett Dean while you're at it.


That looks very interesting. I am going over to Amazon and check it out.


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