# Music Theory



## brianwalker

Big confession guys. I know nothing about music theory, I don't play an instrument. (I was raised by philistines).

I've been wanting to learn music theory for years to better understand various pieces (I'm so clueless I didn't realize that the main tune to the Prelude to Act Three of Tristan was... the four notes indicating Tristan that began at the very beginning of the act one prelude, I had to learn that from the Bernstein video) and participate in discussions and threads like "guess the composition". *However, I'm intimidated. *

What's the learning curve? On average, how many hours do I have to study before I can get to the level in which I can identify stuff like that and understand counterpoint and half diminished 7ths and stuff like that? Good enough to make the kind of critiques made here, on how a recording deviates from the score. I'm a quick learner, how fast do people who are fast at this stuff learn? How many hours of studying am I looking at before I can follow Wagner's score while I listen to Meistersinger?


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## Kopachris

brianwalker said:


> Big confession guys. I know nothing about music theory, I don't play an instrument. (I was raised by philistines).
> 
> I've been wanting to learn music theory for years to better understand various pieces (I'm so clueless I didn't realize that the main tune to the Prelude to Act Three of Tristan was... the four notes indicating Tristan that began at the very beginning of the act one prelude, I had to learn that from the Bernstein video) and participate in discussions and threads like "guess the composition". *However, I'm intimidated. *
> 
> What's the learning curve? On average, how many hours do I have to study before I can get to the level in which I can identify stuff like that and understand counterpoint and half diminished 7ths and stuff like that? Good enough to make the kind of critiques made here, on how a recording deviates from the score. I'm a quick learner, how fast do people who are fast at this stuff learn? How many hours of studying am I looking at before I can follow Wagner's score while I listen to Meistersinger?


I don't know what the average is, but it took me about ten hours a week for eight months, and I still have plenty of gaps in my knowledge, particularly around ear training.


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## brianwalker

Kopachris said:


> I don't know what the average is, but it took me about ten hours a week for eight months, and I still have plenty of gaps in my knowledge, particularly around ear training.


What are the gaps in your knowledge?


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## Kopachris

brianwalker said:


> What are the gaps in your knowledge?


Mostly ear training (as I mentioned), but there are a few chords I'm not too familiar with, and I generally haven't practiced anything I've learned. I also pretty much ignored specific rules for voice leading and species counterpoint and went with a more general "do whatever sounds good" rule. I'm pretty good on form, though, and I can follow a recording with a piece of sheet music.


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## Chrythes

Do you follow a recording with a sheet of music by reading the notes, or by understanding that the note you see is the note being played right now, but don't necessarily recognize it?


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## brianwalker

Chrythes said:


> Do you follow a recording with a sheet of music by reading the notes, or by understanding that the note you see is the note being played right now, but don't necessarily recognize it?


I don't do the former because I can't do the latter. It's like trying to follow an audiobook with the paper book but you can't read or is dyslexic.


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## tdc

Chrythes said:


> Do you follow a recording with a sheet of music by reading the notes, or by understanding that the note you see is the note being played right now, but don't necessarily recognize it?


I think it depends the piece to some extent, and starting out its a bit of both, as one gets better one can keep up with more notes at a time etc.

For myself once I learned a musical instrument and to read music it became very easy to quickly identify sections that deviate from what is notated. But following a score with a symphony, is a little different than a solo instrument piece.


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## Arsakes

I know there are many music theories made by Bach, Haydn, Beethoven, Liszt, Stravinsky, Schoenberg, Cage etc.
About reading and writing music I'm sadly illiterate. I just know where are the notes on Keyboard/Piano but I don't know anything about the Sheet. If I just find my damn keyboard!

I've come here to learn about composers and classic music. I'm a careless reader and writer (that's why I may edit my post everytime or forget to write something.) so sorry for misunderstandings I've caused.


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## drpraetorus

Basic theory and form are not that hard. Unless your planning on really getting into music you don't need most of what a music major would need to be able to enjoy music. There are alot of basic music theory books out there that could help you. Start at your local library. If you want more then it will take some time and study. How long depends on how deep you want to go.


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## brianwalker

drpraetorus said:


> Basic theory and form are not that hard. Unless your planning on really getting into music you don't need most of what a music major would need to be able to enjoy music. There are alot of basic music theory books out there that could help you. Start at your local library. If you want more then it will take some time and study. How long depends on how deep you want to go.


Which books would you recommend? I want to start on three or four of the best.


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## Chrythes

I should have quoted Kopachris, as my post was for him. I was just wondering if it's possible to reach the level of actually reading the score while understanding most of the notes in 8 months, while studying 10 hours a week!

Because listening and following the "symbols" but not the actual notes is not that difficult (at least not with the extremely hard pieces anyway).

Brianwalker, you can also start with this website - 
http://www.teoria.com/

It's got some basic theory tutorials and exercises.


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## Kopachris

Chrythes said:


> I should have quoted Kopachris, as my post was for him. I was just wondering if it's possible to reach the level of actually reading the score while understanding most of the notes in 8 months, while studying 10 hours a week!
> 
> Because listening and following the "symbols" but not the actual notes is not that difficult (at least not with the extremely hard pieces anyway).


I guess it depends on what level of "understanding most of the notes" you mean. Could you clarify?


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## tdc

Chrythes said:


> I should have quoted Kopachris, as my post was for him. I was just wondering if it's possible to reach the level of actually reading the score while understanding most of the notes in 8 months, while studying 10 hours a week!
> 
> Because listening and following the "symbols" but not the actual notes is not that difficult (at least not with the extremely hard pieces anyway).
> 
> Brianwalker, you can also start with this website -
> http://www.teoria.com/
> 
> It's got some basic theory tutorials and exercises.


Yes right after I posted I realized I probably didn't totally understand your question, as I remembered from previous posts that you also read music.


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## drpraetorus

brianwalker said:


> Which books would you recommend? I want to start on three or four of the best.


It has been a long time since I checked out student theory books. The computer has made a big difference in teaching and learning theory, as most other topics. If you are starting from a level of knowing very little, something like this would be worth staring with

http://www.textbooks.com/ISBN/97802..._0205654207.php?CSID=AQA3ABUUBSBUZOTMAACOKK2B

If you know how to read music already and know the basics like major/minor, scales etc. then this would be more in your area.

http://www.textbooks.com/ISBN/97801..._0130862371.php?CSID=AQA3ABUUBSBUZOTMAACOKK2B

This one would be too advanced even for some college students

http://www.textbooks.com/ISBN/97801..._0195301765.php?CSID=AQA3ABUUBSBUZOTMAACOKK2B

This one is worth checking out, if you like these books

http://www.textbooks.com/BooksDescription.php?BKN=964615&CSID=AQA3ABUUBSBUZOTMAACOKK2B

Another good basic course

http://www.textbooks.com/ISBN/97801..._0132816105.php?CSID=AQA3ABUUBSBUZOTMAACOKK2B

This is a good source.

http://www.textbooks.com/ISBN/97800..._0072564903.php?CSID=AQA3ABUUBSBUZOTMAACOKK2B


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## drpraetorus

brianwalker said:


> Which books would you recommend? I want to start on three or four of the best.


It has been a long time since I checked out student theory books. The computer has made a big difference in teaching and learning theory, as most other topics. If you are starting from a level of knowing very little, something like this would be worth staring with

http://www.textbooks.com/ISBN/97802..._0205654207.php?CSID=AQA3ABUUBSBUZOTMAACOKK2B

If you know how to read music already and know the basics like major/minor, scales etc. then this would be more in your area.

http://www.textbooks.com/ISBN/97801..._0130862371.php?CSID=AQA3ABUUBSBUZOTMAACOKK2B

This one would be too advanced even for some college students

http://www.textbooks.com/ISBN/97801..._0195301765.php?CSID=AQA3ABUUBSBUZOTMAACOKK2B

This one is worth checking out, if you like these books

http://www.textbooks.com/BooksDescription.php?BKN=964615&CSID=AQA3ABUUBSBUZOTMAACOKK2B

Another good basic course

http://www.textbooks.com/ISBN/97801..._0132816105.php?CSID=AQA3ABUUBSBUZOTMAACOKK2B

This is a good source.

http://www.textbooks.com/ISBN/97800..._0072564903.php?CSID=AQA3ABUUBSBUZOTMAACOKK2B


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## Turangalîla

^ He has mentioned some good theory books. Also, I would suggest finding a theory teacher to study with. Unless you live in a ridiculously small town, there should be at least one, and private study would help you both _learn_ theory and _practise_ theory.


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## Moira

Learning theory goes most easily with learning an instrument at the same time, and I recommend that you consider this option. While a keyboard is ideal, even the recorder is a viable option, although your theoretical knowledge will outstrip your practical ability in the beginning, it really helps to be able to play the notes. For example, when I transpose from one key to another, I find it really helps to be able play it in the original key, then write it out in the new key (playing it as I go along) and then do an aural comparison to ensure my accuracy. Of course, I don't have much theory beyond this point.


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## PlaySalieri

brianwalker said:


> Big confession guys. I know nothing about music theory, I don't play an instrument. (I was raised by philistines).
> 
> I've been wanting to learn music theory for years to better understand various pieces (I'm so clueless I didn't realize that the main tune to the Prelude to Act Three of Tristan was... the four notes indicating Tristan that began at the very beginning of the act one prelude, I had to learn that from the Bernstein video) and participate in discussions and threads like "guess the composition". *However, I'm intimidated. *
> 
> What's the learning curve? On average, how many hours do I have to study before I can get to the level in which I can identify stuff like that and understand counterpoint and half diminished 7ths and stuff like that? Good enough to make the kind of critiques made here, on how a recording deviates from the score. I'm a quick learner, how fast do people who are fast at this stuff learn? How many hours of studying am I looking at before I can follow Wagner's score while I listen to Meistersinger?


Learning is a good thing and I would never knock it.
However - I am not sure how you think learning music theory is going to help you - it's a lot of trouble to go to, to particpate in guess the composition. Furthermore - Wagner, and other composers wrote their not for professional musicians - they composed in such a way that joe public, with 0 knowledge of theory - would be able to appreciate and enjoy. I recall Mozart's comment on one of his piano concertos - that "connoisseurs would find much in this work - so too would the untrained be pleased - without knowing why" 
I know little of musical theory - hardly anything. But I know quite well what is going on in, say - the finale to Mozart's Jupiter - I can recognise what M is doing with his motifs and I get satisfaction from that. But I could not explain in a technical way what is happening and I would not go to the trouble of learning theory to that purpose. Likewise in opera - I understand how the composer, for example - uses tonality to express certain emotions - or motifs/variations of that motif - to represent a character. 
So I just question whether it really is worth all the effort.
Still - if you enjoy learning and you love music - I am sure you will find it useful in some way.


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## Kopachris

Kopachris said:


> Chrythes said:
> 
> 
> 
> I should have quoted Kopachris, as my post was for him. I was just wondering if it's possible to reach the level of actually reading the score while understanding most of the notes in 8 months, while studying 10 hours a week!
> 
> Because listening and following the "symbols" but not the actual notes is not that difficult (at least not with the extremely hard pieces anyway).
> 
> Brianwalker, you can also start with this website -
> http://www.teoria.com/
> 
> It's got some basic theory tutorials and exercises.
> 
> 
> 
> I guess it depends on what level of "understanding most of the notes" you mean. Could you clarify?
Click to expand...

I really want to answer this question, but I don't quite understand "listening and following the symbols but not the actual notes." If you understand what the symbols mean and can identify what you're listening to in the score, is that what you mean by "understanding most of the notes?" For example, by having moments when looking through the score and listening, where you go "Aha! So that's what I'm hearing!" does one "understand most of the notes?" If that's the case, then yes, I do understand most of the notes, though that comes not from eight months of theory practice, but six years of high school and middle school choir, which taught me how to read sheet music.


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## Novelette

One of the finest books on theory and application is the great work by Ebenezer Prout.

I would, however, caution that it's a good idea to be mindful when reading; he presents an excellent introduction to the basics of functional harmony within the CP archetype. Where Prout would consider a passage forbidden, it is seen later that such a passage can be justified in a new archetype. I would always keep searching for new reading in music theory. There's never a dearth of things to learn!


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## Woodduck

You should study piano with a teacher who knows theory, or at least learn your way around a keyboard while studying theory. It's hard to learn "what it is" if you can't hear "how it sounds" and make the sound that you want to hear. Train eye, ear, and mind all at the same time.


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## PetrB

^^^ verifying Woodduck's comment -- without something to immediately apply it to, theory is just theory and will not tell you much.

Piano is the ideal 'work station' to learn more about music and theory, altogether.


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## pianississimo

I learned a bit while learning the first couple of grades of piano. 
That taught me the basics of rhythm and key and things like that.

I started properly on theory books in January 2014 at grade 3 (ABRSM) and took and passed grade 5 in the summer.
I only had the weekends really - max four or five hours a week. Mostly I was taking practice exams.

You can learn without that kind of grade structure by using some good books. The best ones give you plenty of listening examples and explain what to listen for in each one.

I like this one 
http://www.amazon.co.uk/What-Listen-Music-Signet-Classics/dp/0451531760

Aaron Copland as writing the first edition in the 1930's and revised it a few times after. He explains the elements of listening and the different forms.
This teaches listening skills but not the basics of reading and understanding scores.

Learning ABRSM (and equivalent) beyond grade 5 covers harmony and score reading. If you want to go that far then you need to have some technical study first.


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## Taggart

One of the interesting points about ABRSM is that if you are doing an instrument beyond grade 5, then you need grade 5 theory. But the ABRSM also recognise the importance of "practical theory" because you can substitute grade 5 Jazz (weird scales and some improvisation) or grade 5 practical music - this covers playing back music by ear, transposition at sight, improvisation, providing a simple accompaniment to a piece and basic score reading. By the time you get up to grade 8 practical, you're doing things like more advanced score reading, realising a figured bass, more complex harmonic accompaniment and so forth.

The assumption is that you need the basic harmony skills to analyse and break down the pieces you are playing and also for sight reading where knowledge of chord progressions (for piano) becomes more and more essential. This comes back to Woodduck's point that theory should be done at the keyboard where you can see both hear how it sounds and see how it works.


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## millionrainbows

brianwalker said:


> Big confession guys. I know nothing about music theory, I don't play an instrument. (I was raised by philistines).
> 
> *I've been wanting to learn music theory for years to better understand various pieces* (I'm so clueless I didn't realize that the main tune to the Prelude to Act Three of Tristan was... the four notes indicating Tristan that began at the very beginning of the act one prelude, I had to learn that from the Bernstein video)* and participate in discussions and threads like "guess the composition". *However, I'm intimidated.
> 
> What's the learning curve? On average, *how many hours do I have to study before I can get to the level in which I can identify stuff like that and understand counterpoint and half diminished 7ths and stuff like that? *Good enough to make the kind of critiques made here, on how a recording deviates from the score. I'm a quick learner, how fast do people who are fast at this stuff learn? How many hours of studying am I looking at before I can follow Wagner's score while I listen to Meistersinger?


I don't think your motivations are substantial enough; they are passive, and not involving enough (discussing, following scores).

People who get involved in music do so because they love sound, and wish to make sound, for pleasure. Being a listener, or critic, usually happens after someone who was seriously pursuing active, applied music study decides that they are not proficient enough on an instrument, but still love music.

I see this as part of the internet phenomena. The digital age is (to use McLuhan's nomenclature) a "cold" medium, meaning it requires no active, in depth involvement. Chats and discussions are not very in-depth, either.

Learning music is not a solitary pursuit until you have learned the basics.

My advice is to get a piano or some kind of keyboard. I'm primarily a guitar player, but you will need a keyboard to understand key signatures.

Do some ear training first; this might require a teacher, with a piano.

Memorize the intervals, and associate them with a melodic memory aid, usually the beginning of a song.
Listen to major, minor, diminished and augmented triads, and be able to identify these by ear.
Then, listen to triads, and be able to identify what note is on bottom: root, third, or fifth.

The following will require a keyboard: Memorize the white notes, and notice where the half-steps are, between B-C and E-F.
Then, memorize the key signatures, using some sort of memory aid. Sharps: C-G-D-A-E-B-F#-C#; Flats: F-Bb-Eb-Ab-Db-Gb-Cb.

Learn to spell scales in all keys. Learn all the white-key modes, and spell them. I Don't Play Lousy Music Any Longer. (Ionian, Dorian, Phrygian, Lydian, Mixolydian, Aolean, Locrian.

To learn to read music, I suggest learning to sight-sing first. This will also familiarize you with recognizing key signatures, modes, and orienting yourself in a key. This is best done in a group, such as a theory class.


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