# Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart



## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

As you all know, I've been listening to Classical solely for a good while now (along with New Age Music which I added on fairly recently and am still discovering more about) but I always keep coming back to Mozart. The joy of his music, the celebration of life, such vigor, even in his darkest moments, he still manages to sound extremely hopeful. After seeing the Requiem Mass, my mom said, "I know you said this piece is Mozart at his darkest, most aggressive, most Beethovian in a sense, but it felt very pleasant to me." 

I enjoy hearing my mom's reactions, they are pure and genuine, but not coming from the most knowledgeable of places, and sometimes she needs help finding the vocabulary to express her opinions. But I respect her "gut reaction" style.

But, to get to my main point, I think he may be becoming my favorite composer. I get such a full feeling in my body when I'm about to turn on some Mozart.

It's quite funny, because when I first started visiting this forum, and first listened to Haydn, I wrote Mozart off as being a "wimpier" Haydn. I was very blown away by Haydn's ferocity, but it seems to be Mozart's delicacy that is winning my heart over time.

I think I'm falling in love ladies and gentleman!

:tiphat:


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## Clairvoyance Enough (Jul 25, 2014)

Team Mozart is already overstacked. Listen to the first movement of The Clock symphony and use the adrenaline rush to get back over here!


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

Clairvoyance Enough said:


> Team Mozart is already overstacked. Listen to the first movement of The Clock symphony and use the adrenaline rush to get back over here!


lol! Please indulge me, I'm trying to have a moment here! .

I still love Haydn too, but I can't help my feelings!


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

I'm listening to the Mass in C Minor for the first time right now. I've been really getting into Choral works lately, I love the sound of a great sounding choir.

This is fantastic so far, perhaps greater than the requiem!


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## Klassik (Mar 14, 2017)

Captainnumber36 said:


> I enjoy hearing my mom's reactions, they are pure and genuine, but not coming from the most knowledgeable of places, and sometimes she needs help finding the vocabulary to express her opinions. But I respect her "gut reaction" style.


I would not call my mother a classical music fan, but I'm sure she heard a lot of it when my father was alive since he was a big classical music fan. Anyway, to her, Mozart is the only composer who really matters. I'm not really sure how she feels about Bach and Vivaldi though. I could give her a bunch of Beethoven CDs, but I doubt she'd ever listen to them even though I'm sure she respects Beethoven. She might keep the Mozart CDs on all day though! :lol:


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

Klassik said:


> I would not call my mother a classical music fan, but I'm sure she heard a lot of it when my father was alive since he was a big classical music fan. Anyway, to her, Mozart is the only composer who really matters. I'm not really sure how she feels about Bach and Vivaldi though. I could give her a bunch of Beethoven CDs, but I doubt she'd ever listen to them even though I'm sure she respects Beethoven. She might keep the Mozart CDs on all day though! :lol:


Mozart's just that good, I suppose! .


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## mmsbls (Mar 6, 2011)

Mozart has been my favorite composer since I first thought about whom I enjoyed most. I have been stunned by the remarkable volume of staggeringly beautiful music he wrote in almost every contemporary genre. In fact, Mozart was my favorite before I had heard a single opera by him. The Marriage of Figaro and Don Giovanni rival even Wagner's greatest works (The Ring and Tristan).

There are posts in various threads on TC that list quotes from well known musicians, composers, conductors, and critics saying how perfect, wondrous, great, or otherwise superior Mozart's music is. That's fine, but for me he simply wrote more beautiful music in more areas than anyone else.


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

mmsbls said:


> Mozart has been my favorite composer since I first thought about whom I enjoyed most. I have been stunned by the remarkable volume of staggeringly beautiful music he wrote in almost every contemporary genre. In fact, Mozart was my favorite before I had heard a single opera by him. The Marriage of Figaro and Don Giovanni rival even Wagner's greatest works (The Ring and Tristan).
> 
> There are posts in various threads on TC that list quotes from well known musicians, composers, conductors, and critics saying how perfect, wondrous, great, or otherwise superior Mozart's music is. That's fine, but for me he simply wrote more beautiful music in more areas than anyone else.


I like the way you think! It's not about superiority, it's about what one enjoys and derives pleasure from.


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## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

What can I say.

Welcome aboard and enjoy the ride!


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## CypressWillow (Apr 2, 2013)

It's wonderful when you find The One, musically speaking. That composer who effortlessly holds you, awed and enchanted, by their music.

It doesn't take anything away from others that you love and whose music nourishes you. It's simply that they somehow KNOW you. Maybe it's the sense that, if you were a composer, *theirs* is the music you would wish to write.

I'm always happy to find someone, on this forum or elsewhere, who has that connection. For me it's Chopin, for Bettina Beethoven, for Peeyaj (whom we haven't heard from lately) it's Schubert, and so on.

So if Mozart is that one for you, Captain, how wonderful that you have discovered this.


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## Agamemnon (May 1, 2017)

You know what they say: the angels in heaven play Bach of course, except in their spare time because then they play Mozart.


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## EarthBoundRules (Sep 25, 2011)

So far I've found Mozart to be incredibly consistent - I've liked nearly every piece I've heard from him. I'll have to see if that stays true when I get to his less popular works.


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## Tchaikov6 (Mar 30, 2016)

Yes, I used to feel that Mozart wasn't anything special. But after hearing so much of his music being- as EarthBoundRules puts it perfectly-very consistent. His operas, his symphonies, his concertos, sonatas, chamber music- they are all delightful, with unique and wonderful melodies that I hum for days after hearing them. What an amazing composer...


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## ArtMusic (Jan 5, 2013)

Captainnumber36 said:


> As you all know, I've been listening to Classical solely for a good while now (along with New Age Music which I added on fairly recently and am still discovering more about) but I always keep coming back to Mozart. The joy of his music, the celebration of life, such vigor, even in his darkest moments, he still manages to sound extremely hopeful. After seeing the Requiem Mass, my mom said, "I know you said this piece is Mozart at his darkest, most aggressive, most Beethovian in a sense, but it felt very pleasant to me."
> 
> I enjoy hearing my mom's reactions, they are pure and genuine, but not coming from the most knowledgeable of places, and sometimes she needs help finding the vocabulary to express her opinions. But I respect her "gut reaction" style.
> 
> ...


^ This experience, time and time again across centuries and with people, makes Mozart a great composer. It is the proven test that makes a composer truly great. Pure and simple.


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

CypressWillow said:


> It's wonderful when you find The One, musically speaking. That composer who effortlessly holds you, awed and enchanted, by their music.
> 
> It doesn't take anything away from others that you love and whose music nourishes you. It's simply that they somehow KNOW you. Maybe it's the sense that, if you were a composer, *theirs* is the music you would wish to write.
> 
> ...


Well written. I like how you said it doesn't take away anything from the other composers I love, there is just something that pulls me towards Mozart.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

It's good you've had such a natural spontaneous response to Mozart. I wish I'd been so lucky. Mozart was really hard for me to enjoy, an arduous journey. 

I used to think it was all really trivial and silly music. Then one day, driving through Kensington / Chelsea late one summer's night, the streets were overflowing with party people, The Prague Symphony came on the radio. And the elegant and dynamic music seemed to be such a perfect background for the view as I was driving. 

Friends suggested I listen to the string quintets, I bought Grumiaux and thought it was totally boring. It was Kuijken who helped me to appreciate that music. They then suggested I try the later quartets so I bought ABQ (Teldec) and thought to myself that this was the most dull music in the world. It was only when I heard the Petersen Quartet that I started to see why it's so interesting. 

I had some poor experiences in opera -- I recall a Figaro with Haitink (I think -- it could have been Colin Davies) in Covent Garden with an all star cast which completely fell flat. And a puerile Don Giovanni with sex on the stage in The London Colosseum. It was the video recordings by Ponnelle and Harnoncourt which opened up the Da Ponte operas for me.

Little by little I learned to really appreciate what he did, and for a while I loved the Gran Partita, some of the trios, some of the piano sonatas, some of the violin sonatas and (less so) the some of the symphonies and piano concertos. The key was always been finding the right performer. This may always be the case, for all composers, but with Mozart it took effort and research to find the right ones.

And I'd say that my empathy for Mozart is variable, I like what he did much less now than 5 years ago.


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

Mandryka said:


> It's good you've had such a natural spontaneous response to Mozart. I wish I'd been so lucky. Mozart was really hard for me to enjoy, an arduous journey.
> 
> I used to think it was all really trivial and silly music. Then one day, driving through Kensington / Chelsea late one summer's night, the streets were overflowing with party people, The Prague Symphony came on the radio. And the elegant and dynamic music seemed to be such a perfect background for the view as I was driving.
> 
> ...


Well put!


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## jegreenwood (Dec 25, 2015)

I've been taking some music theory courses. Over the past few weeks, we've been analyzing the Adagio of Piano Concerto No. 23 measure by measure, often note by note. Do that for several of his works, and you'll never again feel his work is lightweight.


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## jegreenwood (Dec 25, 2015)

Mandryka said:


> It's good you've had such a natural spontaneous response to Mozart. I wish I'd been so lucky. Mozart was really hard for me to enjoy, an arduous journey.
> 
> I used to think it was all really trivial and silly music. Then one day, driving through Kensington / Chelsea late one summer's night, the streets were overflowing with party people, The Prague Symphony came on the radio. And the elegant and dynamic music seemed to be such a perfect background for the view as I was driving.
> 
> ...


Funny. The Grumiaux and ABQ (Teldec) recordings are my go-to versions of those works. At the urging of others I bought the Talich Quartet's cycle a couple of years ago. Those I found uninspired.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

jegreenwood said:


> Funny. The Grumiaux and ABQ (Teldec) recordings are my go-to versions of those works. At the urging of others I bought the Talich Quartet's cycle a couple of years ago. Those I found uninspired.


Yes they were for the people who recommended them to me. I agree about Talich.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

jegreenwood said:


> I've been taking some music theory courses. Over the past few weeks, we've been analyzing the Adagio of Piano Concerto No. 23 measure by measure, often note by note. Do that for several of his works, and you'll never again feel his work is lightweight.


It's a really interesting post because it makes it sound as though the depth of the music is hidden, you have to analyse for weeks to find it. You sense this idea a lot in discussions of Mozart, that he did all sorts of very clever things with modulations from one key to the next, yet the music sounds so natural that the casual listener doesn't notice anything daring and new going on.


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## jegreenwood (Dec 25, 2015)

Mandryka said:


> It's a really interesting post because it makes it sound as though the depth of the music is hidden, you have to analyse for weeks to find it. You sense this idea a lot in discussions of Mozart, that he did all sorts of very clever things with modulations from one key to the next, yet the music sounds so natural that the casual listener doesn't notice anything daring and new going on.


Just one brief passage. The movement is in 6/8. When the orchestra enters in measure 12, the melody actually starts on the 4th beat, and the downbeat is displaced until measure 18. The passage is full of suspensions and much of it is in canon. Not to mention that Mozart uses clarinets which were pretty rare at the time. Finally, the bass line is provided by cello and bass as well as one bassoon. But the strings play eighth notes on the first and fourth beat. The bassoon holds each note for three beats (in some cases a full measure). This creates an emphasis of the bass on each accentuated beat, with a continuing echo after.

(This is all new stuff for me. Bettina can correct any faux pas.)


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## Bettina (Sep 29, 2016)

jegreenwood said:


> Just one brief passage. The movement is in 6/8. When the orchestra enters in measure 12, the melody actually starts on the 4th beat, and the downbeat is displaced until measure 18. The passage is full of suspensions and much of it is in canon. Not to mention that Mozart uses clarinets which were pretty rare at the time. Finally, the bass line is provided by cello and bass as well as one bassoon. But the strings play eighth notes on the first and fourth beat. The bassoon holds each note for three beats (in some cases a full measure). This creates an emphasis of the bass on each accentuated beat, with a continuing echo after.
> 
> (This is all new stuff for me. Bettina can correct any faux pas.)


Excellent analysis! Absolutely no faux pas. Great point about the orchestral melody being shifted away from the downbeats. In fact, it seems to me that the displacement is foreshadowed in the opening piano melody.

Initially, in measures 1 and 2, the piano's melodic figure starts on the downbeat as one would expect. But in its sequential repetition in measure 3, there's a tie over the bar line, and the motivic unit (F# G# D in this measure) gets displaced to beat 2. With this rhythmic dislocation, it seems like Mozart is subtly planting the seeds for the more overt syncopation that will occur in the orchestral melody later. This is one of my favorite aspects of his music: the way that he hints at developments which will take place later in the piece, the way that a good novelist would.


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## jegreenwood (Dec 25, 2015)

Bettina said:


> Excellent analysis! Absolutely no faux pas. Great point about the orchestral melody being shifted away from the downbeats. In fact, it seems to me that the displacement is foreshadowed in the opening piano melody.
> 
> Initially, in measures 1 and 2, the piano's melodic figure starts on the downbeat as one would expect. But in its sequential repetition in measure 3, there's a tie over the bar line, and the motivic unit (F# G# D in this measure) gets displaced to beat 2. With this rhythmic dislocation, it seems like Mozart is subtly planting the seeds for the more overt syncopation that will occur in the orchestral melody later. This is one of my favorite aspects of his music: the way that he hints at developments which will take place later in the piece, the way that a good novelist would.


You're right! I had only sort of picked that up before. (I just felt like I was having trouble finding the beat.). But the displacement goes so beautifully with the dark, somewhat dissonant (by the standards of the time) theme the piano is playing.


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## Bettina (Sep 29, 2016)

jegreenwood said:


> You're right! I had only sort of picked that up before. (I just felt like I was having trouble finding the beat.). But the displacement goes so beautifully with the dark, somewhat dissonant (by the standards of the time) theme the piano is playing.


Yes, I love the dissonant, haunting character of that opening theme. Measures 2 and 3 make prominent use of minor sevenths, presented as dramatic downward leaps. Balancing out these dramatic swoops, there are also passages where the melody twists and turns through a series of half-steps. And then, in measure 8, there's an augmented second, which further adds to the sense of mystery and pathos. The drama is heightened by the Neapolitan chord in measures 10-11 - it's a magical moment where everything becomes brighter for a second!

Haha, I'm totally getting carried away analyzing every single note in every measure...but it's not my fault! Mozart's genius made me do it. :lol: Anyway, this movement should be required listening for anyone who claims that Mozart is too chirpy!


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## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

Mandryka said:


> It's good you've had such a natural spontaneous response to Mozart. I wish I'd been so lucky. Mozart was really hard for me to enjoy, an arduous journey.
> 
> I used to think it was all really trivial and silly music. Then one day, driving through Kensington / Chelsea late one summer's night, the streets were overflowing with party people, The Prague Symphony came on the radio. And the elegant and dynamic music seemed to be such a perfect background for the view as I was driving.
> 
> ...


why post on a thread then for someone who says he has discovered Mozart is becoming his favourite?

I cant speak for others but my enthusiasm for Mozart has never stopped expanding.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Captainnumber36 said:


> As you all know, I've been listening to Classical solely for a good while now (along with New Age Music which I added on fairly recently and am still discovering more about) but I always keep coming back to Mozart. The joy of his music, the celebration of life, such vigor, even in his darkest moments, he still manages to sound extremely hopeful. After seeing the Requiem Mass, my mom said, "I know you said this piece is Mozart at his darkest, most aggressive, most Beethovian in a sense, but it felt very pleasant to me."
> 
> I enjoy hearing my mom's reactions, they are pure and genuine, but not coming from the most knowledgeable of places, and sometimes she needs help finding the vocabulary to express her opinions. But I respect her "gut reaction" style.
> 
> ...


Yes. One can trace Haydn's music directly to Beethoven's-that peasant-like gruffness, the humor, the musical surprises, etc.

Mozart's music, no.

Piano Concertos 20-27. A must!!!


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

stomanek said:


> I cant speak for others but my enthusiasm for Mozart has never stopped expanding.


Give it time, young man.


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## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

Mandryka said:


> Give it time, young man.


believe me - I would trade my love for Mozart to be truly worthy of being called a young man - I'm 53


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## poconoron (Oct 26, 2011)

Mandryka said:


> Give it time, young man.


Well, the Mozart man has been my favorite composer for 50 years now, and I'm 70.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

stomanek said:


> why post on a thread then for someone who says he has discovered Mozart is becoming his favourite?
> 
> I cant speak for others but my enthusiasm for Mozart has never stopped expanding.


For me neither, endless discovering, absolute outstanding music.


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## StlukesguildOhio (Dec 25, 2006)

One of the criticisms commonly leveled at those who express a dislike for Schonberg or Bartok or Xenakis or Stockhausen, etc... is that they fail to appreciate such music for what it is, instead expecting it to sound like something else... and being left disappointed as a result. I'm often find myself thinking that such is the problem with many who find Mozart problematic... let alone lightweight and trivial. They are expecting the Romanticism Beethoven or other composers and when they don't get it, they are left disappointed. Personally, if I want Beethoven... I'll listen to Beethoven. 

I'm another who agrees that a love of Mozart is not something one outgrows. After 25 or 30 years of listening seriously to Classical Music, Bach is the only composer I turn to more than Mozart. :tiphat:


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

StlukesguildOhio said:


> One of the criticisms commonly leveled at those who express a dislike for Schonberg or Bartok or Xenakis or Stockhausen, etc... is that they fail to appreciate such music for what it is, instead expecting it to sound like something else... and being left disappointed as a result. I'm often find myself thinking that such is the problem with many who find Mozart problematic... let alone lightweight and trivial. They are expecting the Romanticism Beethoven or other composers and when they don't get it, they are left disappointed. Personally, if I want Beethoven... I'll listen to Beethoven.
> 
> I'm another who agrees that a love of Mozart is not something one outgrows. After 25 or 30 years of listening seriously to Classical Music, Bach is the only composer I turn to more than Mozart. :tiphat:


This sounds very plausible. Though having said that I had a really strange experience today, I listened to Bashkirov and Gauk's recording of K 491, which brings the music so close to romanticism, in this a concerto which, allegedly, greatly impressed Beethoven. I recommend that recording highly even if you end up rejecting it for being out of style or too interventionist, it's like a force of nature.


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## jegreenwood (Dec 25, 2015)

Pugg said:


> For me neither, endless discovering, absolute outstanding music.


I'll go through periods when I may be less likely to listen to Mozart - but that is true for my response to every composer with the arguable exception of Bach.

That's a reflection of my state of mind and emotional state (and often the weather). It's not a reflection of the quality of the music.


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

jegreenwood said:


> I'll go through periods when I may be less likely to listen to Mozart - but that is true for my response to every composer with the arguable exception of Bach.
> 
> That's a reflection of my state of mind and emotional state (and often the weather). It's not a reflection of the quality of the music.


I really love the attitude I've noticed with almost every TCer that music is subjective and is all opinion, and opinions aren't right or wrong, they are just opinions and we leave it at that!


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## JAS (Mar 6, 2013)

StlukesguildOhio said:


> One of the criticisms commonly leveled at those who express a dislike for Schonberg or Bartok or Xenakis or Stockhausen, etc... is that they fail to appreciate such music for what it is, instead expecting it to sound like something else... and being left disappointed as a result. I'm often find myself thinking that such is the problem with many who find Mozart problematic... let alone lightweight and trivial. They are expecting the Romanticism Beethoven or other composers and when they don't get it, they are left disappointed. Personally, if I want Beethoven... I'll listen to Beethoven.


It is a criticism commonly used, but it makes no more sense for Mozart than it does for Schoenberg, et al. It oddly dismisses the very real option that someone doesn't like the music precisely for "what it is." (The statement that they "fail to appreciate such music for what it is" is verbal chicanery, as what does "appreciate" mean in this context if it doesn't at least imply "like"? What are we left with other than the circular idea that they don't like the music because they don't like it?)

I happen to like Mozart's music a great deal, but it makes no sense at all to say that someone who likes Schoenberg should like Mozart even though it isn't the kind of music that he or she is looking for. Everyone who listens to a piece of music must, technically, accept that the music is what it is, but no one should be required to "appreciate" it on those grounds.


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## Kieran (Aug 24, 2010)

I never get a sense that Mozart is reaching for it, if you know what I mean. As if he's forcing things, or trying very hard to express himself, or bluffing, or clumsy, or in any way inadequate to the task, in any of the music I've heard. Movements escalate, swiftly passing through moods, and like us, one second they might be glum, then a few bars later, the mood has lifted and we can move again, and he always dazzles as he moves across the spectrum.

He's never predictable or humdrum in his music, either. Never slavish in his expressions. I don't know any Mozart music where he holds his defiant heart aloft like an egotist and demands attention for his many woes. He can be both tragic and comic within the space of seconds - just like life itself. He has the gruesomely delicious and terrifying finale of Don Giovanni, and in the middle of it, Leporello never loses his comic spots, even though he also still manages to sound pathetic and afraid. This fluency and psychological precision in Mozart is no small feat, it's most likely unique - but like I say, it never sounds like he's making an effort to do this - it all flows like a the river of life itself, except somehow more perfectly formed.

Glad you're on the team now, Cap'n - we should start winning a few of these polls now :lol:

:tiphat:


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

Kieran said:


> I never get a sense that Mozart is reaching for it, if you know what I mean. As if he's forcing things, or trying very hard to express himself, or bluffing, or clumsy, or in any way inadequate to the task, in any of the music I've heard. Movements escalate, swiftly passing through moods, and like us, one second they might be glum, then a few bars later, the mood has lifted and we can move again, and he always dazzles as he moves across the spectrum.
> 
> He's never predictable or humdrum in his music, either. Never slavish in his expressions. I don't know any Mozart music where he holds his defiant heart aloft like an egotist and demands attention for his many woes. He can be both tragic and comic within the space of seconds - just like life itself. He has the gruesomely delicious and terrifying finale of Don Giovanni, and in the middle of it, Leporello never loses his comic spots, even though he also still manages to sound pathetic and afraid. This fluency and psychological precision in Mozart is no small feat, it's most likely unique - but like I say, it never sounds like he's making an effort to do this - it all flows like a the river of life itself, except somehow more perfectly formed.
> 
> ...


The effortlessness is almost indisputable! Well put, I enjoyed reading your description!


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## Kieran (Aug 24, 2010)

Captainnumber36 said:


> The effortlessness is almost indisputable! Well put, I enjoyed reading your description!


To me, it's like he's the most fluent in the language of music. There are no agendas, no spiel, no pushing himself to the foreground, with flashy virtuosity and face-pulling fist pumps or whatever. Mozart is almost anonymous behind the music, and the virtuosity often exists in playing with the right feeling, rather than showy twelve-fingered complexities on the keyboard...


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

Kieran said:


> To me, it's like he's the most fluent in the language of music. There are no agendas, no spiel, no pushing himself to the foreground, with flashy virtuosity and face-pulling fist pumps or whatever. Mozart is almost anonymous behind the music, and the virtuosity often exists in playing with the right feeling, rather than showy twelve-fingered complexities on the keyboard...


I totally resonate with his lack of "showiness" and focus on "feeling" that you hear in the music as well. While I agree he comes off as effortless, there are other composers that sound effortful that I still enjoy, but maybe not to the same level as Mozart.

It is very important to me in my compositions to not come off as coerced and have an effortlessness about it, because to me, it really is quite effortless. I compose very quickly, it just all comes to me in an inspired moment.

This is just a fact, I'm not trying to boast myself, at all.


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## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

Kieran said:


> I never get a sense that Mozart is reaching for it, if you know what I mean. As if he's forcing things, or trying very hard to express himself, or bluffing, or clumsy, or in any way inadequate to the task, in any of the music I've heard. Movements escalate, swiftly passing through moods, and like us, one second they might be glum, then a few bars later, the mood has lifted and we can move again, and he always dazzles as he moves across the spectrum.
> 
> *He's never predictable or humdrum in his music*, either. Never slavish in his expressions. I don't know any Mozart music where he holds his defiant heart aloft like an egotist and demands attention for his many woes. He can be both tragic and comic within the space of seconds - just like life itself. He has the gruesomely delicious and terrifying finale of Don Giovanni, and in the middle of it, Leporello never loses his comic spots, even though he also still manages to sound pathetic and afraid. This fluency and psychological precision in Mozart is no small feat, it's most likely unique - but like I say, it never sounds like he's making an effort to do this - it all flows like a the river of life itself, except somehow more perfectly formed.
> 
> ...


while I agree with this - it is a pair of principal reasons many cite for not liking Mozart (ie so predictable - nothing exciting ever happens in Mozart)


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## Agamemnon (May 1, 2017)

While it is very true that Mozart's music always sounds spontaneous as if the music flows naturally out of him (which Mozart resented by stressing that he had to work very hard to acquire his composing skills) and that he always lets the music speak for itself instead of putting himself (or the executive musican) to the forefront, the thing I disliked about his music in the beginning was the classical style of his music itself! Classical music is in a way pre-democratic and pre-modern music as it is the voice of the aristocracy (and Mozart indeed wrote his music for aristocrats and worked at the court). The music therefore has a 'stiff' and outdated sound to it: it's hard not to see the crazy 18th century wigs and stuff as you listen to the music... Especially Beethoven broke with these style and circumstances and produced a far more democratic and at the same time personal sound thus producing music which I as a modern man can more easily relate to.

But you get used to the style of classical music and then Mozart opens up a wonderful, pure musical world. I hope that someday I can get over the even more 'outdated' baroque style of Bach and acknowledge his genius too...


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

jegreenwood said:


> I'll go through periods when I may be less likely to listen to Mozart - but that is true for my response to every composer with the arguable exception of Bach.
> 
> That's a reflection of my state of mind and emotional state (and often the weather). It's not a reflection of the quality of the music.


The weather has no effect on me like music does, but I do think that without perhaps e very few exceptions I like all Mozart's music.


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

stomanek said:


> while I agree with this - it is a pair of principal reasons many cite for not liking Mozart (ie so predictable - nothing exciting ever happens in Mozart)


Mozart is always full of brilliance, grace, wit, and climaxes; I hardly find it lacking excitement!


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## Melvin (Mar 25, 2011)

K. 466:clap::clap::clap::cheers::clap:


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## eugeneonagain (May 14, 2017)

I wonder, how does this strike the Mozart fans here (of which I am also one)? Mozart seems to blend effortlessly with modern/jazz harmony:


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## Vaneyes (May 11, 2010)

We've always read how tragic it was that *WAM* died so young, age 35 in 1791. It was tragic, but not so much because of age. At that time, age 35 was Europe's life expectancy. Schubert (31) and Mendelssohn (38) died much later.

What's tragic, is that had he had a better roll of the dice, "Greatest Composer" might be less contested these days.


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

eugeneonagain said:


> I wonder, how does this strike the Mozart fans here (of which I am also one)? Mozart seems to blend effortlessly with modern/jazz harmony:


I'm not sure I really enjoy that. But it's well done, and a nice experiment!


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## eugeneonagain (May 14, 2017)

Captainnumber36 said:


> I'm not sure I really enjoy that. *But it's well done*, and a nice experiment!


I should think so, Hough is a rather celebrated pianist/composer.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Melvin said:


> K. :cheers::clap:


I am sure you can dig up some more beside the K466.


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## jegreenwood (Dec 25, 2015)

For Mozart inspired jazz, I'm not sure this has been topped:


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## BabyGiraffe (Feb 24, 2017)

jegreenwood said:


> For Mozart inspired jazz, I'm not sure this has been topped:


How is this Mozart inspired? The only thing that bears any resemblance to Mozart is the title. It sounds like typical Balkan music in jazz context.


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

I want to bump this thread, because I've been listening, again, to lots of Mozart!  Right at this moment, his Horn Concertos.


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## flamencosketches (Jan 4, 2019)

Captain, let me urge you to check out Ivan Moravec's recordings of Mozart's piano concerti. They were the first Mozart recordings I ever really listened to and he remains my favorite interpreter of these works. He was a phenomenal pianist.











Not much else to be found on youtube unfortunately, but I love also his recording of the concerto No.14 in E-flat major (K449) with the Czech Chamber Orchestra and No.25 in C major with Josef Vlach and the Czech Philharmonic. Give em a listen sometime.

Moravec is also a phenomenal interpreter of Debussy, another of your favorites, no?






Not to mention the Chopin Nocturnes... he is a favorite of mine in those works as well.


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

flamencosketches said:


> Captain, let me urge you to check out Ivan Moravec's recordings of Mozart's piano concerti. They were the first Mozart recordings I ever really listened to and he remains my favorite interpreter of these works. He was a phenomenal pianist.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I'll listen to his concerti, I've heard his Nocturnes by Chopin and adore them!


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

I put on No.24 and 25.


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## Bwv 1080 (Dec 31, 2018)

Vaneyes said:


> We've always read how tragic it was that *WAM* died so young, age 35 in 1791. It was tragic, but not so much because of age. At that time, age 35 was Europe's life expectancy.


But that was life expectancy at birth, reflecting high childhood mortality rates. Once someone turned 18 they could expect to live into their 60s


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## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

Bwv 1080 said:


> But that was life expectancy at birth, reflecting high childhood mortality rates. Once someone turned 18 they could expect to live into their 60s
> 
> View attachment 121764


Yes and you only have to compare when other composers died from the same period

salieri haydn clementi and many more lived well past 60


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## ECraigR (Jun 25, 2019)

Good bump. I wasn’t familiar with Ivan Moravec. Listening to his performance of the 20, and it’s quite marvelous.


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

ECraigR said:


> Good bump. I wasn't familiar with Ivan Moravec. Listening to his performance of the 20, and it's quite marvelous.


I loved him since the first note of his I heard! His Debussy is very very nice, it sounded exactly how I imagined how it would with him playing it.


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## tdc (Jan 17, 2011)

I'm listening to Mozart's Piano Concerto no. 19 k 459 at the moment. According to Rosen this work features some of Mozart's finest counterpoint, and he feels it has the strongest finale of all Mozart's PC's.

On another note Rosen classifies No. 9 k271 as the first great Mozart piano concerto and PC's 13-18 also all as great works and says they laid the groundwork for the later PC's.

No. 17 in G major has a device of a modulating second theme which Beethoven copied in his PC no. 4 also in G major.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

I wonder why K 459 is so interesting contrapuntally.


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## tdc (Jan 17, 2011)

Mandryka said:


> I wonder why K 459 is so interesting contrapuntally.


"The greatest of all Mozart's concerto finales is that of k 459 in F major. The first two movements of this work are already heavy with Baroque sequences and contrapuntal imitation, as if to prepare for the final Allegro assai, for the last movement is a complex synthesis of fugue, sonata-rondo-finale, and opera buffa style. The weightiest and the lightest forms of music are fused here in a work of unimaginable brilliance and gaiety..."

Rosen goes into more technical details of the work and acknowledges a Bach influence. This info is on pages 226 and 227 of his book _The Classical Style_ expanded edition.


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## tdc (Jan 17, 2011)

Another thing I thought was interesting is that PC's 15 and 16 (k 450 and k 451) were written by Mozart to perform himself and K 450 in B flat major is technically the most difficult of his concertos to perform.


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## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

tdc said:


> Another thing I thought was interesting is that PC's 15 and 16 (k 450 and k 451) were written by Mozart to perform himself and K 450 in B flat major is technically the most difficult of his concertos to perform.


I thought all Mozart's vienna PCs were composed for him to play himself

He certainly played his K466 as his father comments on being at his son's concert and hearing him play it.

The subscription series generally presented a new Mozart PC

Interesting about K459 - the finale better than some of the mighty later finale's? K491, K466 503? etc


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

I have always adored PC 21 Mvt. 2, it is so perfect when well executed.


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## tdc (Jan 17, 2011)

stomanek said:


> I thought all Mozart's vienna PCs were composed for him to play himself
> 
> He certainly played his K466 as his father comments on being at his son's concert and hearing him play it.
> 
> ...


You could be right, I'm in the part of the chapter where he is just beginning to discuss no. 20. As far as the finale, I think arguments could certainly be made for a number of the other concertos. I don't agree with all of Rosen's views necessarily, but it is interesting to read his opinions and he provides a lot of insights on these works.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

tdc said:


> "The greatest of all Mozart's concerto finales is that of k 459 in F major. The first two movements of this work are already heavy with Baroque sequences and contrapuntal imitation, as if to prepare for the final Allegro assai, for the last movement is a complex synthesis of fugue, sonata-rondo-finale, and opera buffa style. The weightiest and the lightest forms of music are fused here in a work of unimaginable brilliance and gaiety..."
> 
> Rosen goes into more technical details of the work and acknowledges a Bach influence. This info is on pages 226 and 227 of his book _The Classical Style_ expanded edition.


Interesting, I was aware that Mozart was very interested in Baroque style but this piece isn't at all "severe" It's a favourite concerto of mine ever since I discovered Pollini's performance.

Another piece which someone once told me is very baroque - contrapuntal - is the first movement of the sonata K 576, again something I've loved since as a kid I discovered my parents' recording of Landowska playing it.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

tdc said:


> "The greatest of all Mozart's concerto finales is that of k 459 in F major. The first two movements of this work are already heavy with Baroque sequences and contrapuntal imitation, as if to prepare for the final Allegro assai, for the last movement is a complex synthesis of fugue, sonata-rondo-finale, and opera buffa style. The weightiest and the lightest forms of music are fused here in a work of unimaginable brilliance and gaiety..."
> 
> Rosen goes into more technical details of the work and acknowledges a Bach influence. This info is on pages 226 and 227 of his book _The Classical Style_ expanded edition.


Before encountering JS Bach's works in 1782, Wolfgang's main influences in counterpoint were Leopold Mozart, Johann Ernst Eberlin (Although after knowing Bach, Mozart got tired of Eberlin and wrote in a letter to Leopold "Eberlin is too trivial to deserve a place beside Bach and Handel"), Michael Haydn, and probably GF Handel (who enjoyed more fame across Europe than Bach).
While they didn't explore as many tricks as Bach, they were also proficient themselves as masters of counterpoint. Especially Leopold Mozart's influence on Wolfgang (the fact that Wolfgang's affiliation and facility with counterpoint developed under Leopold's early instructions) is often overlooked.

_"Leopold admonished his son openly in 1777 that he not forget to make public demonstration of his abilities in "fugue, canon, and contrapunctus.""_
http://mrc.hanyang.ac.kr/wp-content/jspm/20/jspm_2006_20_10.pdf#page=8














It's interesting that Leopold was also a fairly accomplished contrapuntist himself. 
Listen for example to Gloria and Credo fugues from his Missa Solemnis in C: 







Not only this, he wrote a bunch of other works involving counterpoint such as litanies as well. Looking at the scores I downloaded from IMSLP, they seem to be finely written.

By the way, it occured to me once that the strings that open Agnus Dei from Mozart's Missa Brevis in F K192 ( 



 ) and the right hand of F minor prelude from Bach's WTC I sound somewhat similar. Although there's no evidence, I started to wonder about the possibility Mozart might have known some of Bach's works before coming to Vienna in 1782.


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## Larkenfield (Jun 5, 2017)

U


hammeredklavier said:


> Although there's no evidence, I started to wonder about the possibility Mozart might have known some of Bach's works before coming to Vienna in 1782.


"In 1764 Johann Christian Bach met with Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart, who was aged eight at the time and had been brought to London by his father. Bach then spent five months teaching Mozart in composition. Bach is widely regarded as having a strong influence on the young Mozart, with scholars such as Teodor Wyzewa and Georges Saint-Foix describing him as "the only, true teacher of Mozart". Mozart arranged three sonatas from Bach's Op. 5 into keyboard concertos, and in later life Mozart "often acknowledged the artistic debt he owed" to Johann Christian." Mozart could have easily been exposed to some of JS Bach's work starting at the age of eight. Johann Christian was taught by his father who died in 1750.


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## Clouds Weep Snowflakes (Feb 24, 2019)

I dressed up as Mozart for Purim when I was in 3rd grade :>
It makes me happy to know I'm not the only one to thing Mozart's Requiem is an amazing piece of music!


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

Clouds Weep Snowflakes said:


> I dressed up as Mozart for Purim when I was in 3rd grade :>
> It makes me happy to know I'm not the only one to thing Mozart's Requiem is an amazing piece of music!


It's quite popular, actually! A well recognized work, indeed.


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

I'm listening to PC No. 9 now, which will be followed by PC No. 21. it's Murray Periah playing, I much like his Mozart.


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## Clouds Weep Snowflakes (Feb 24, 2019)

Captainnumber36 said:


> It's quite popular, actually! A well recognized work, indeed.


Mozart's 40th symphony is another piece I loved since childhood!


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

Clouds Weep Snowflakes said:


> Mozart's 40th symphony is another piece I loved since childhood!


The 41st is also great if you haven't indulged yet! . Both are well known.


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## Clouds Weep Snowflakes (Feb 24, 2019)

Captainnumber36 said:


> The 41st is also great if you haven't indulged yet! . Both are well known.


What about Mozart's operas? How many did he write?


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

Clouds Weep Snowflakes said:


> What about Mozart's operas? How many did he write?


I don't know how many, but The Marriage of Figaro is very popular and highly regarded!


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## flamencosketches (Jan 4, 2019)

Captainnumber36 said:


> I don't know how many, but The Marriage of Figaro is very popular and highly regarded!


Mozart wrote 22 operas. Of these only a handful are (very) highly regarded: Figaro, Don Giovanni, Cosi fan tutte, the Magic Flute, Die Entführung aus dem Serail, and arguably also Idomeneo re di Creta and La Clemenza di Tito. Still, among those, that's more highly acclaimed operas than any other composer in history whose name wasn't Wagner or Verdi, no...?


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## Clouds Weep Snowflakes (Feb 24, 2019)

Captainnumber36 said:


> I don't know how many, but The Marriage of Figaro is very popular and highly regarded!


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_operas_by_Wolfgang_Amadeus_Mozart
I know Wikipedia isn't the most reliable source on the internet, but it seems Mozart wrote quite of few operas.


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## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

flamencosketches said:


> Mozart wrote 22 operas. Of these only a handful are (very) highly regarded: Figaro, Don Giovanni, Cosi fan tutte, the Magic Flute, Die Entführung aus dem Serail, and arguably also Idomeneo re di Creta and La Clemenza di Tito. Still, among those, that's more highly acclaimed operas than any other composer in history whose name wasn't Wagner or Verdi, no...?


The bulk of Mozart's opera were composed in his youth and the great operas from age 25.

There are some great moments from the early operas.


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## tdc (Jan 17, 2011)

In discussing Mozart's piano concertos Rosen seems to make a point in highlighting how great some of the under appreciated ones are such as K. 537, which he suggests is a highly important transitional work:

"Both the loose melodic structure and the reliance on figuration for tension are characteristics of the early Romantic style, as in the concertos of Hummel and Chopin. It was not Beethoven but Mozart who showed how the classical style might be destroyed. To appreciate K. 537 we cannot listen to it with the same expectations that we have for the other works. It demands to be judged by later standards: viewed in this light, it can be seen as the greatest of early Romantic piano concertos."


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## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

tdc said:


> In discussing Mozart's piano concertos Rosen seems to make a point in highlighting how great some of the under appreciated ones are such as K. 537, which he suggests is a highly important transitional work:
> 
> "Both the loose melodic structure and the reliance on figuration for tension are characteristics of the early Romantic style, as in the concertos of Hummel and Chopin. It was not Beethoven but Mozart who showed how the classical style might be destroyed. To appreciate K. 537 we cannot listen to it with the same expectations that we have for the other works. It demands to be judged by later standards: viewed in this light, it can be seen as the greatest of early Romantic piano concertos."


Interesting - I always thought K537 was better than many give it credit.


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