# Top 10 Tragedies of the Opera World



## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

What are the top 10 (you can do less if you can't think of that many) tragedies you believe have befallen the world of opera (ie, in the real world, rather than Top 10 Tragedies _In _an Opera)?


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## BBSVK (10 mo ago)

That Bellini died too young.
Maybe Bizet as well.
That there is no complete video footage of Callas singing Norma (staged).
Something that happened to classical music overall - the modern stuff is not really pretty, with distinct melody, pleasant harmonies etc. Yes, I had a look in contemporary opera thread, checked on some examples (not all) wasn't impressed.
The fact, that non- traditional productions constitute almost 100% performances in some major theaters. They should be used like salt, not main meal.
EDIT: adding here a special sub-cathegory of non-traditional productions, that apply contemporary political correctness to 100 years old art


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## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

You can approach this question from a number of different angles. For example, in no particular order, I would say:
1) We have no full recording of Rosa Ponselle's Norma
2) Modern vocal pedagogy. Enough said....
3) Eula Beal (easily one of the top 10 most beautiful voices in recorded history) has only ever recorded 4 pieces.
4) Kathleen Ferrier's death basically took the entire contralto fach with her. 
5) The resurgence of countertenors 😒
6) When did we stop singing legato? Beautiful legato line isn't just important to good singing, it's really what most of the point is in the first place.
7) Productions containing blatant political revisionism to pander to modern sensibilities at the expense of authenticity and respect for the concept of historical context.
8) Obviously, I could easily fill this list with "criminally underrated singers", but as that would kill the purpose of this thread, I will choose just one: the fact that Helen Traubel was never a household name is utterly calamitous. 
9) Imagine how many more operas Mozart could have written had he lived just a decade longer. His later work was beginning to take on characteristics of the Romantic Era, which makes this even more interesting to ponder (especially as I tend to prefer romantic music to classical)
10) While he did perform at Sydney Opera House, Paul Robeson...never actually sang an opera, or even recorded an aria, instead sticking to musical theatre, negro spirituals and, on occasion, plays.

edit: I'm a little annoyed they censored that word. Even today, they're commonly referred to as that in contexts that aren't remotely controversial. Oh well. Not a hill worth dying on.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Most of what's happened to opera isn't tragic - maybe opera itself makes us view things melodramatically? - but an expected result of time and change. 

The life span of every art form has a trajectory. There has always been and will always be musical theater in some form, but it remains to be seen whether the music of the future can produce operatic masterworks of the quality attained by the greatest composers between about 1600 and 1950. At the moment I see no cause for hope. The extraordinarily rich language of tonal music made possible a unique form of dramatic expression that reached a peak of complexity and eloquence in the late19th and early 20th centuries. Moreover, the vocal art reached the level of excellence it did mainly because operatic music required a maximum of power, agility and tonal beauty. 

Music has long since moved on, operatic singing has been preserved - imperfectly - mainly for the perpetuation of old music, and we are given a series of experiments in operatic composition that succeed only to the extent that they can adapt an old form to new sensibilities. In most cases that means not very well. I suppose the virtual extinction of opera as a vital contemporary art form is some sort of tragedy, but at my age I'm probably more concerned just to hang on to a slim, energetic body, strong teeth, and a decent head of hair.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

BalalaikaBoy said:


> instead sticking to musical theatre*, * *spirituals...
> 
> edit: I'm a little annoyed they censored that word.


Amazing. You didn't say "****** spirituals." I'll bet it's easier to get away with words actually offensive but unfamiliar to the censors. Shall we try a few and see what happens?

Maybe that sort of misguided PC puritanism should be considered a tragedy. It certainly might be when we're given Otellos who look Norwegian and Carmens who kill their Joses.


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## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

Woodduck said:


> Most of what's happened to opera isn't tragic - maybe opera itself makes us view things melodramatically? - but an expected result of time and change.
> 
> The life span of every art form has a trajectory. There has always been and will always be musical theater in some form, but it remains to be seen whether the music of the future can produce operatic masterworks of the quality attained by the greatest composers between about 1600 and 1950. At the moment I see no cause for hope. The extraordinarily rich language of tonal music made possible a unique form of dramatic expression that reached a peak of complexity and eloquence in the late19th and early 20th centuries. Moreover, the vocal art reached the level of excellence it did mainly because operatic music required a maximum of power, agility and tonal beauty.
> 
> Music has long since moved on, operatic singing has been preserved - imperfectly - mainly for the perpetuation of old music, and we are given a series of experiments in operatic composition that succeed only to the extent that they can adapt an old form to new sensibilities. In most cases that means not very well. I suppose the virtual extinction of opera as a vital contemporary art form is some sort of tragedy, but at my age I'm probably more concerned just to hang on to a slim, energetic body, strong teeth, and a decent head of hair.


Progression through periods of discovery, ascendency, golden age and decline is a familiar type of cycle to most historically literate people. However, while I get what you're saying, I don't think the inevitability of this result precludes it from being tragic. For example, being a generation or two younger than their parents, most people will live to see their mother and father die within their lifetime. Such an outcome is highly predictable, but most of us would nonetheless say that said person had experienced a tragedy.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

BalalaikaBoy said:


> 8) Obviously, I could easily fill this list with "criminally underrated singers", but as that would kill the purpose of this thread, I will choose just one: the fact that Helen Traubel was never a household name is utterly calamitous.


She may have been as much of a household name as any opera singer of her time, thanks to her appearances in movies, nightclubs and television. If she's underrated at all, it may be only because she had to compete with the magical voice - and lovely face and form - of Flagstad in Wagner.


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## BBSVK (10 mo ago)

I don't see the extinction of opera as inevitable. People still like musicals. Maybe it's not golden age for them, but they continue to be composed, and please people. Or film music. The Dracula soundtrack by Vojciech Killar had an operatic feel for me. Somehow, the classical music needs to get attuned to the vallets of the audiences again, like musicals and movie sondtracks.


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## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

Woodduck said:


> Amazing. You didn't say "**** spirituals." I'll bet it's easier to get away with words actually offensive but unfamiliar to the censors. Shall we try a few and see what happens?
> 
> Maybe that sort of misguided PC puritanism should be considered a tragedy. It certainly might be when we're given Otellos who look Norwegian and Carmens who kill their Joses.


In the event I actually _do _intend to be offensive, I must say I've developed a perverse enjoyment in pulling various exotic pejoratives out of my hat to get around the censors on places like Facebook and Twitter. The funny thing is that they've basically forced me into being _more _offensive, since such words tend to have a stronger meaning than the original censored word (ex: being called a "spinster" cuts a lot deeper than being called a ****).

Anyway, as there isn't anyone here I feel particularly motivated to be mean to, I should probably get back on topic haha.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

BalalaikaBoy said:


> Progression through periods of discovery, ascendency, golden age and decline is a familiar type of cycle to most historically literate people. However, while I get what you're saying, I don't think the inevitability of this result precludes it from being tragic. For example, being a generation or two younger than their parents, most people will live to see their mother and father die within their lifetime. Such an outcome is highly predictable, but most of us would nonetheless say that said person had experienced a tragedy.


I wouldn't say that. A loss, sure, unless the relationship is lousy, in which case it's a relief. Let's be realistic. They're keeping us alive now in advanced states of decrepitude. Most of us would rather not reach that stage, or wish it on our parents. A merciful end to a good life span is not a tragedy.


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## BBSVK (10 mo ago)

Woodduck said:


> Maybe that sort of misguided PC puritanism should be considered a tragedy. It certainly might be when we're given Otellos who look Norwegian and Carmens who kill their Joses.


Thanks, I'll go back and add it to my list !


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

This to BalalaikaBoy

What don’t you like about the countertenor voice?

in answer to the OP

I regret that Wagner didn’t get to revise Tannhäuser or even write another opera or two.


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## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

BalalaikaBoy said:


> 5) The resurgence of countertenors 😒


That we do not have recording footage of the golden age of castrati. It was a horrible practice but the voices must have been incredible.


> 9) Imagine how many more operas Mozart could have written had he lived just a decade longer. His later work was beginning to take on characteristics of the Romantic Era, which makes this even more interesting to ponder (especially as I tend to prefer romantic music to classical)


This could have worked both ways. I don't think Mozart would have written very romantically even 15 years later. Sure, he would have done more German opera and probably a more serious subject than Magic Flute and it should have given a boost to German opera. But I think these operas would still have been more classicist, say an update of Gluck, like Idomeno was an update of opera seria. (Don't take this characterization too literally, of course Mozart would have done something more special than mere updating, but I believe it would still not have been very romantic to our ears.)
And it could also have been stifling to Beethoven or Weber (or others). Mozart loomed large, even dying so young and being mostly confined to ancien regime aesthetics.

Weber did die too young or at least he should have had better collaborators. Euryanthe and Oberon are still two major candidates for the best music in almost unstageable operas.
Not sure about Bizet; I'd obviously grant him a normal lifespan but Carmen seems a unique thing, hard to repeat in the best of circumstances.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

I regret that the glorious tenor Fritz Wunderlich died before he reached his full maturity. Who knows where his career would have gone?


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

1. It is sad that stereo recordings did not come out around 5 years earlier so we could have had some really good recordings of Maria Callas at her vocal peak

2. I wish Farinelli could have been recorded

3. I wish Jesse Norman had recorded Erda

4. I wish we had a full recording of Rosa Ponselle in Norma

5. I wish Rosa Ponselle had recorded with Caruso

6. I wish they had recorded Kirsten Flagstad before she took up Wagner

7. I wish Mahalia Jackson had an identical twin sister who had been trained in operatic singing.


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## ColdGenius (9 mo ago)

I have not so much to add to the written above. But there are some thoughts. 
1. Music and especially opera are in worse position compared to other kinds of art. For a long time the scores were kept only occasionally. We have only three operas by Monteverdy, and the first opera in history, be it good or bad, hasn't remained at all. 
2. Following previous issue, the possibility of recording appeared too late. It occurred to the end of the best part of the opera history. We'll never know what is authentic performance, how Cuzzoni, Farinelli, Bordoni, Caffarelly and Pasta, and Malibran, and Falcon, and so on did sing. All we have is describing and imagination. 
3. I'm not against of countertenors. They are uneven and unstable, all different enough, there are few really good ones in the whole class. The castrati left important mark in history, but what was the price? The practice itself was worse than disgusting. 
4. Yes, there is an enormous swarm of underrated, underrecorded, prematurely died or finished carrier performers. They are discussed here often, at least those who had a reasonable carrier without stardom. And how many singers are there, unknown beyond their opera company. I think about it regularly attending my Opera House.


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## ColdGenius (9 mo ago)

5. The level of performing and vocal teaching, of course. What shall I hear in case of my longevity? 
6. Regietheater. If we call it "regieopera", it affords playful ambiguous sounding in Russian, with some **** connotation. Speaking seriously, adding of "actual" agenda to at least 150 years old oeuvre gives it nothing. Such a production just becomes obsolete precociously.


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## ColdGenius (9 mo ago)

How nice it is! They've edited literally medical term.


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## BBSVK (10 mo ago)

Kreisler jr said:


> Not sure about Bizet; I'd obviously grant him a normal lifespan but Carmen seems a unique thing, hard to repeat in the best of circumstances.


I agree, that's why I wrote "maybe". 
I believe we could have had another opera like Pearl Fishers, if he lived longer. That would be nice, although, I admit, it would probably not be a super dramatic change of operatic history.

As for Bellini, I would cherish any additional opera. Not necessarily another Norma, even another I Capuleti e i Montecchi, or whatever is not considered his peak, would make me happy. And he was still developing. What would have been his next direction ? Nobody knows. Sob...


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## Op.123 (Mar 25, 2013)

1) The rapid deterioration of singing in general.
2) Directors being given more and more control over operatic productions.
3) Unwillingness to programme many wonderful modern operas which suit modern vocal technique far, far better than Verdi, Wagner Puccini, Bellini etc.
4) The prematurely curtailed careers of Callas, Mancini, Penno etc.


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## marlow (11 mo ago)

The greatest tragedy was probably the fact that Mozart died at the height of his powers at the age of 35. Just what we might of had in the way of opera if he had lived another 10 years we can only dream of.
of course, Bizet was another to die when he had just found himself with a masterpiece.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Op.123 said:


> 3) Unwillingness to programme many wonderful modern operas which suit modern vocal technique far, far better than Verdi, Wagner Puccini, Bellini etc.


So instead of beautiful music being sung by ugly voices we can have ugly music sung by ugly voices.

Just kidding.

Maybe.


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## OffPitchNeb (Jun 6, 2016)

I think the biggest tragedy was that the golden age of singing preceded the golden age of recording.


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## Op.123 (Mar 25, 2013)

Woodduck said:


> So instead of beautiful music being sung by ugly voices we can have ugly music sung by ugly voices.
> 
> Just kidding.
> 
> Maybe.


I wouldn't dispute that some modern operas are 'ugly', although there's a lot of beautiful music there too. But I think 'ugly' music has just as much to say as 'beautiful' music.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Op.123 said:


> I wouldn't dispute that some modern operas are 'ugly', although there's a lot of beautiful music there too. But I think 'ugly' music has just as much to say as 'beautiful' music.


Sure. Art, Callas once said, is more than beauty. But if we allow for a broad enough idea of beauty, great art is beautiful even in its presentation of ugliness. It's the main thing that distinguishes art from life. Ugliness in art has to be justified by purpose and meaning, and if it has those it will have beauty, though it may not be superficially pleasant. The murder of Desdemona and the suicide of Otello, which are ugly - shocking and repellent - in themselves, move us deeply and draw us back to watch and listen again and again because Verdi's music is beautiful and asks for beautiful voices. Since opera is by definition sung, there is great value in writing music for voices in which they can sound beautiful. I'm not sure whether Brett Dean's _Hamlet, _broadcast recently by the Met, asks for beautiful voices or not, since voices just didn't sound beautiful singing it, and after listening for a while to its tuneless, hyperactive churning I just didn't care and shut it off halfway through. I seem to recall having a similar response to Nico Muhly's _Marnie _a few seasons ago. These works may be effective stage shows, but I can't imagine many people wanting to listen to them repeatedly, among the reasons for which is their failure to give singers melodies that reveal the beauty of which their voices are capable.


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## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

OffPitchNeb said:


> I think the biggest tragedy was that the golden age of singing preceded the golden age of recording.


You win 1st prize for this thread.


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## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

Barbebleu said:


> This to BalalaikaBoy
> What don’t you like about the countertenor voice?


1) Fake sounding woofiness 
2) 99% of them completely lack any semblance of core to the voice. The last 1% have only a tiny amount. 
3) Minimal range. Maybe an octave and a half optimistically. They treat F5 like it's a high note. Even the deepest contraltos can manage a G5, and these will generally have about 3/4 of an octave more good notes on the lower end and sing with about 5x the vocal power. 
4) They sound sickly and sterilized. 
5) Often times they sound just plain creepy, almost pedophilic. 
6) Have you ever heard a countertenor with decent legato? ....yeah, me neither. 
7) The way they express emotion doesn't convince me. They lack the facility either to express the emotion's of a man or that to express the emotions of a woman who would be singing said music in the same range.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

BalalaikaBoy said:


> 5) Often times they sound [...] almost pedophilic.


Perhaps best not to inquire...


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## pianozach (May 21, 2018)

BalalaikaBoy said:


> 8) Obviously, I could easily fill this list with "criminally underrated singers", but as that would kill the purpose of this thread, I will choose just one: the fact that *Helen Traubel* was never a household name is utterly calamitous.


In 1981 I was in a community theatre production of *Rogers & Hammerstein*'s forgotten musical *Pipe Dream*, originally produced on Broadway in 1955, where it played for 245 performances, and was a financial disaster for R&H due to dismal reviews. Ours was the very first production after its Broadway run, and the materials sent had never been organized for rental because NO ONE had ever asked for the rights to produce the show up 'til then.

The musical was loosely based on two John Steinbeck books: *Sweet Thursday*, and, to a lesser extent, *Cannery Row*. In a nutshell, the plot is about the rocky romance between Suzy, who was homeless so moved into a whorehouse (or, as R&H referred to it, a 'bordello'), and Doc, a marine biologist.

*Helen Traubel* played "The Madam" of the whorehouse, Fauna, and ended up with top billing when it turned out the the first choice to play the role of Doc, Henry Fonda, after six months of singing lessons, STILL wasn't able to sing well enough.

Here's two of *Traubel*'s songs from the show, a sentimental reprise of *All At Once You Love Her*, and a jaunty uptempo number named after the title of the Steinbeck book most of the show was based on, *Sweet Thursday*.

In addition to her opera career, Traubel also enjoyed a successful cabaret/lounge singer career as well. Her second 'parallel' career singing non-opera may account for her lack of respect at the time in the opera world.


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

BalalaikaBoy said:


> 1) Fake sounding woofiness
> 2) 99% of them completely lack any semblance of core to the voice. The last 1% have only a tiny amount.
> 3) Minimal range. Maybe an octave and a half optimistically. They treat F5 like it's a high note. Even the deepest contraltos can manage a G5, and these will generally have about 3/4 of an octave more good notes on the lower end and sing with about 5x the vocal power.
> 4) They sound sickly and sterilized.
> ...


Whether or not I agree with any or none of your points I would suggest that 5 might just be borderline libellous . I’m not familiar either with the paedophiliac singing voice.

Are all countertenors tarred with this same brush? There are, imho, many great countertenors e.g. Deller, Bowman, Scholl , Jaroussky, to name but a few.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

BalalaikaBoy said:


> 1) Fake sounding woofiness
> 2) 99% of them completely lack any semblance of core to the voice. The last 1% have only a tiny amount.
> 3) Minimal range. Maybe an octave and a half optimistically. They treat F5 like it's a high note. Even the deepest contraltos can manage a G5, and these will generally have about 3/4 of an octave more good notes on the lower end and sing with about 5x the vocal power.
> 4) They sound sickly and sterilized.
> ...


Gosh! I'm not at all sure what to say about some of your points. In any case I have no idea what a paedophile sounds like, but that statement strikes me as pretty insulting - to any singer.

And Daniels at least (as he's the one I know best) sings with impeccable legato and beautiful tone, the voice so well produced that he is easy to hear in a large concert hall. I've heard him at both the Barbican and at the Queen Elizabeth Hall, both of which are quite large venues. I've also heard him at the Royal Opera House and again he had no problem being heard. 

Daniels is also one of the most affecting singers I've ever heard and has no trouble expressing emotion in a wide range of music by a wide range of different composers, even a Broadway song like _A Quiet Thing_, which is from the musical *Flora, the Red Menace*. 

To tell the truth, before I heard David Daniels I hadn't much liked countertenors either, but a friend took me to a concert of him singing Vivaldi and I was totally hooked. After that, I think I went to see him every time he appeared in London. 

There are others I like as well now, but Daniels remains my favourite.


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## superhorn (Mar 23, 2010)

BalalaikaBoy said:


> You can approach this question from a number of different angles. For example, in no particular order, I would say:
> 1) We have no full recording of Rosa Ponselle's Norma
> 2) Modern vocal pedagogy. Enough said....
> 3) Eula Beal (easily one of the top 10 most beautiful voices in recorded history) has only ever recorded 4 pieces.
> ...


. I dob\n't think today's opera singers are incapable of singing legato , nor is the resurgence of countertenors a bad thing , and. I don't think vocal pedagogy today is all that bad, and there was plenty of bad vocal teaching in the past, too . Otherwise, right on target .


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## Shaughnessy (Dec 31, 2020)

OffPitchNeb said:


> *I think the biggest tragedy was that the golden age of singing preceded the golden age of recording.*


There was an article that I once posted here about how a number of world-renowned opera singers would be so upset when they heard their voices played back on wax cylinders that they would burst into tears and be virtually inconsolable. The sad truth is that we have no idea as to how they really sounded - As it is, I'm still wildly impressed by what we do have to remember them by, even if the price to be paid was having to make them cry.


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## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

Saying they sound creepy/pedophilic is not an accusation that they _are _pedophilic. I don't have any evidence that they're any more likely to be pedophiles than anyone else (that would be like saying that Maria Callas liked to burn people because she had a "fiery voice"). I was simply asked why I didn't like them, which, since this is a post about opera, is also asking what they sound like. 

If anything, I think that, post 2016, society has become increasingly witch hunt-y with all kinds of accusations that lack even the most basic decency. That isn't something I wish to contribute to.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Shaughnessy said:


> There was an article that I once posted here about how a number of world-renowned opera singers would be so upset when they heard their voices played back on wax cylinders that they would burst into tears and be virtually inconsolable. The sad truth is that we have no idea as to how they really sounded - As it is, I'm still wildly impressed by what we do have to remember them by, even if the price to be paid was having to make them cry.


Point taken, but the question of the fidelity of recordings from the acoustic era is really quite nuanced. How accurately voices were captured depended partly on the specific recording technology (there was technical variety, as well as improvement over the pre-electrical years) and partly on the voice in question. In many cases it isn't true that we have no idea of what singers sounded like, but we have to supplement what we hear with what we know about what recordings could and couldn't tell us. 

Because the recordable frequency spectrum was limited at both ends, but most damagingly on the high end, we can say roughly that voices in the lower middle pitch range - baritones, basically - tended to be captured most faithfully, and voices at the high end - sopranos - least faithfully. We can easily hear that the absence of complexity in the upper frequencies lends to sopranos a sort of homogeneous, childlike, flutey, hooty quality, while lower voices retain more of their natural variety of timbre. It's helpful in assessing the sounds we hear to listen to high-voiced singers like Rosa Ponselle, who began recording on acoustic 78s and made her last recordings in the LP era; there's a great increase in the richness and vibrancy of her sound, but she's still recognizable on the early shellacs. A baritone like Stracciari sounds much the same early and late, but with an increase in brilliance. Caruso's voice, which was both rich and brilliant, with a compact tone and minimal vibrato, was said to record particularly well, and his wife commented that one of his last recordings, made just before electrical recording came in, sounded like him singing in the next room.

As another point of reference, it's useful to hear radio transcriptions from the early years. I think those began in the 1930s, and some of them can be startlingly lifelike. Listen, for example, to Flagstad and Melchior at the Met in one of their _Tristan_s from the 1930s, and you really get a good idea of the sound and impact of their voices.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

BalalaikaBoy said:


> Saying they sound creepy/pedophilic is not an accusation that they _are _pedophilic. I don't have any evidence that they're any more likely to be pedophiles than anyone else (that would be like saying that Maria Callas liked to burn people because she had a "fiery voice"). I was simply asked why I didn't like them, which, since this is a post about opera, is also asking what they sound like.
> 
> If anything, I think that, post 2016, society has become increasingly witch hunt-y with all kinds of accusations that lack even the most basic decency. That isn't something I wish to contribute to.


I'm sure no one imagines you're accusing anyone of anything. It's just the fact that a type of voice would suggest such imagery to you... Why would a pedophile sound different from anyone else? Wouldn't one be just as likely to be a bass? Aren't children most likely to be molested by a male relative - say, Uncle Harold? How many of us have uncles who are countertenors?

Just idle questions for a lazy afternoon. I think I need a nap.


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## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

Woodduck said:


> I'm sure no one imagines you're accusing anyone of anything. It's just the fact that a type of voice would suggest such imagery to you... Why would a pedophile sound different from anyone else? Wouldn't one be just as likely to be a bass? Aren't children most likely to be molested by a male relative - say, Uncle Harold? How many of us have uncles who are countertenors?
> Just idle questions for a lazy afternoon. I think I need a nap.


The straightforward answer is that countertenors sound creepy to me, and it makes sense for a pdf file to sound creepy. I suppose if I were to overanalyze though, there is probably a lot of selection bias in that assumption: ie, we just happen to notice the pdf files who are creepy, while the rest fly under the radar (and/or go to Hollywood...). A more intelligent pdf file would likely invest more effort into presenting as charming, harmless and/or inconspicuous.


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## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

superhorn said:


> . I dob\n't think today's opera singers are incapable of singing legato , nor is the resurgence of countertenors a bad thing , *and. I don't think vocal pedagogy today is all that bad*, and there was plenty of bad vocal teaching in the past, too . Otherwise, right on target .


If you approve of most modern vocal pedagogy, we probably disagree on like 80% of opera related opinions (which is fine, I'm just pointing out I don't think we agree on as much as you think we do).


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

BalalaikaBoy said:


> The straightforward answer is that countertenors sound creepy to me, and it makes sense for a pdf file to sound creepy. I suppose if I were to overanalyze though, there is probably a lot of selection bias in that assumption: ie, we just happen to notice the pdf files who are creepy, while the rest fly under the radar (and/or go to Hollywood...). A more intelligent pdf file would likely invest more effort into presenting as charming, harmless and/or inconspicuous.


In what way does it make sense for a paedophile to sound creepy? I assume one can sound creepy and not be a paedophile and conversely be a paedophile and not sound creepy. To assign this kind of judgement to a style of singing is risible at best and defamatory at worst. Would you walk up to Phillipe Jaroussky and say to him that he sounded like a paedophile? I imagine not.


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## alan davis (Oct 16, 2013)

Great tragedy?...That Erich Korngold wasn't born 50 years earlier.


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## damianjb1 (Jan 1, 2016)

pianozach said:


> In 1981 I was in a community theatre production of *Rogers & Hammerstein*'s forgotten musical *Pipe Dream*, originally produced on Broadway in 1955, where it played for 245 performances, and was a financial disaster for R&H due to dismal reviews. Ours was the very first production after its Broadway run, and the materials sent had never been organized for rental because NO ONE had ever asked for the rights to produce the show up 'til then.
> 
> The musical was loosely based on two John Steinbeck books: *Sweet Thursday*, and, to a lesser extent, *Cannery Row*. In a nutshell, the plot is about the rocky romance between Suzy, who was homeless so moved into a whorehouse (or, as R&H referred to it, a 'bordello'), and Doc, a marine biologist.
> 
> ...


I find it extraordinary that big voiced opera singers (Helen Traubel and Eileen Farrell) also had successful careers singing popular music. I could not imagine that happening today. Audiences must have been much more open to 'proper' singing.


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## OffPitchNeb (Jun 6, 2016)

damianjb1 said:


> I find it extraordinary that big-voiced opera singers (Helen Traubel and Eileen Farrell) also had successful careers singing popular music. I could not imagine that happening today. Audiences must have been much more open to 'proper' singing.


Agree. I am amazed how they could "tone" down and make stylistic adjustments quite well (same for Dorothy Kirsten and Grace Moore, but they were smaller voices). Steber, my favorite American soprano in that era, seemed to sing pop songs alright, but she still sounded operatic.


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