# Ukrainian Composers?



## NoCoPilot (Nov 9, 2020)

We all know hundreds of great Russian and Soviet composers, but what about Ukrainian composers? I'm not knowledgeable enough to list them myself.


----------



## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

Sooner or later, this thread will end up in the "Politics and Religion in Classical Music" section.


----------



## NoCoPilot (Nov 9, 2020)

Okay, the history of Ukraine  says they were only independent 1917-1922, and 1991-today. Maybe not a fair question therefore.

Expand it to "Soviet composers from the Ukrainian region."


----------



## NoCoPilot (Nov 9, 2020)

hammeredklavier said:


> Sooner or later, this thread will end up in the "Politics and Religion in Classical Music" section.


I'd like to think we can appreciate the arts & culture of a people without criticizing their leadership.


----------



## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

hammeredklavier said:


> Sooner or later, this thread will end up in the "Politics and Religion in Classical Music" section.


Not if people stick to the subject. My two favourites:

Valentyn Silvestrov (1937)
Boris Lyatoshinsky (1895-1968)

Prokofiev and Gliere were also born in Ukraine, but are rarely seen as Ukranian composers.


----------



## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

[Oops. Art Rock beat me to it.]


----------



## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

NoCoPilot said:


> Okay, the history of Ukraine  says they were only independent 1917-1922, and 1991-today. Maybe not a fair question therefore.
> 
> Expand it to "Soviet composers from the Ukrainian region."


Bit tricky, I suppose. Poland didn't exist at all during Chopin's lifetime yet we don't tend to think of him as anything else but Polish.


----------



## Prodromides (Mar 18, 2012)

Of the composers who were born in (and around) Ukrainian territories, those who have achieved the highest levels of recognition seem to be known by their ethnicities (Russian, Romanian & Polish) than by their nation.

Sergei Prokofiev, Reinhold Glière, & Dimitri Tiomkin are referred to as Russian composers - but were born in Ukraine.
Karol Szymanowski & Wojciech Kilar are typically associated with Polish culture.
Ciprian Porumbescu & Roman Vlad are referred to as Romanians, etc.

Valentin Sylvestrov, Igor Krutoy & Edvin Marton are three who are described as Ukrainian with no other ethnicity superceding.

[Nikolai Roslavets WAS born in Russia, but biographical information stresses both Russian and Ukrainian as his ethnicities]


----------



## HenryPenfold (Apr 29, 2018)

Btw, Silvestrov safely escaped and is a refugee in Berlin, where he is now composing.


----------



## Kiki (Aug 15, 2018)

Here's a curve ball...

Mykola Ovsianiko-Kulikovsky, a Ukrainian composer whose Symphony No. 21 in G minor, written in 1809, discovered in the archives of the Odessa Theatre only in 1948, was the Soviet's worthy equivalent of Haydn.

Except that it was a hoax created by a composer born in Odessa (in Ukraine), Mikhail Goldstein, who had previously written music using Ukrainian themes but was criticised as being a Jew, so he created this hoax as a revenge. The ironic thing is that, after he had revealed the hoax, there were people who refused to believe it was a hoax.

Nice music, in fact. Worthy of Haydn? I don't know. Melodiya did record it with Mravinsky conducting - talk about being high-profile, it must be a piece of embarrassing history for them; and record companies outside USSR/Russia tended to downplay the hoax whenever they re-issued this recording by printing Goldstein's name in a smaller font next to Ovsianiko-Kulikovsky's name, or by omitting his name altogether, and it's been suggested that the reason was to _not_ put their licensing terms with Melodiya at risk.


----------



## NoCoPilot (Nov 9, 2020)

Polish pianist & composer Jan Paderewski, who I HAVE heard of, was born in Zhytomyr, which is now part of Ukraine.


----------



## MatthewWeflen (Jan 24, 2019)

This humanitarian benefit sale at Presto Classical is all about Ukrainian composers. I've really enjoyed the Lyatoshynski and Bortkiewicz albums here.


----------



## NoCoPilot (Nov 9, 2020)

Kiki said:


> Except that it was a hoax created by a composer born in Odessa (in Ukraine)...
> 
> Nice music, in fact.


Hoax or not, it's damn fine music. Give me more hoaxes like this.


----------



## NoCoPilot (Nov 9, 2020)

MatthewWeflen said:


> This humanitarian benefit sale at Presto Classical is all about Ukrainian composers. I've really enjoyed the Lyatoshynski and Bortkiewicz albums here.


Heh-heh, the opening Allegro moderato of Klebanov's String Quartet No.4 sounds a wee bit familiar!


----------



## Ludwig Schon (10 mo ago)

Surprised that no one has mentioned Karol Szymanowski, who was born in Kyiv. An incredible composer.


----------



## Neo Romanza (May 7, 2013)

Ludwig Schon said:


> Surprised that no one has mentioned Karol Szymanowski, who was born in Kyiv. An incredible composer.


I'm not since Szymanowski was a Polish composer. Born to Polish parents and recognized in Poland as one of their own.


----------



## NoCoPilot (Nov 9, 2020)

"Born in Kyiv" meets the specifications for the thread though. Thanks Ludwig.


----------



## Ludwig Schon (10 mo ago)

Neo Romanza said:


> I'm not since Szymanowski was a Polish composer. Born to Polish parents and recognized in Poland as one of their own.


And yet, ethnically Slav… Nationalism, as Samuel Johnson observed is "the last refuge of a scoundrel".


----------



## Neo Romanza (May 7, 2013)

Ludwig Schon said:


> And yet, ethnically Slav… Nationalism, as Samuel Johnson observed is "the last refuge of a scoundrel".


Okay, so what? He was born to a Polish family, so my point is he wasn't Ukrainian, he's Polish. He is recognized as a Polish composer and it will remain this way. Was Ligeti or Xenakis Romanian because they were both born in Romania? No, it doesn't.


----------



## Bernamej (Feb 24, 2014)

Great romantic piano music composer: Kosenko.


----------



## NoCoPilot (Nov 9, 2020)

*Reminder:* The Ukrainian region has been under a number of different governments over the past 32,000 years. We are not here to define who is Ukrainian and who is not.

Only who was born and/or raised in what is present-day Ukraine. Umkay?


----------



## MatthewWeflen (Jan 24, 2019)

NoCoPilot said:


> Heh-heh, the opening Allegro moderato of Klebanov's String Quartet No.4 sounds a wee bit familiar!


Yeah, I don't know what the deal is with that one. Needless to say I did not purchase it


----------



## Neo Romanza (May 7, 2013)

NoCoPilot said:


> *Reminder:* The Ukrainian region has been under a number of different governments over the past 32,000 years. We are not here to define who is Ukrainian and who is not.
> 
> Only who was born and/or raised in what is present-day Ukraine. Umkay?


Well, I'm here to tell people who say Szymanowski is Ukrainian that they're wrong, which they are and will continue to be. It's absolutely idiotic that anyone would refute what the facts are and what his biography tells us.


----------



## NoCoPilot (Nov 9, 2020)

Soapbox: OFF

See posts #18 and #29. If I could change the title of this thread from "Ukrainian composers" to "Composers born in present-day Ukraine" I would.


----------



## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

Several posts have been removed. If you cannot conduct a discussion within the Forum Rules, Guidelines & Terms of Service (Link), then please do not enter the discussion. 



> Be polite to your fellow members. If you disagree with them, please state your opinion in a »civil« and respectful manner. This applies to all communication taking place on Talk Classical, whether by means of posts, private messages, visitor messages, blogs or social groups.
> 
> Do not post comments about other members person or »posting style« on the forum (unless said comments are unmistakably positive). Argue opinions all you like but do not get personal and never resort to »ad homs«.


----------



## Red Terror (Dec 10, 2018)

*Thomas de Hartmann* (1885-1956)

https://toccataclassics.com/product/thomas-de-hartmann-orchestral-music/


----------



## SONNET CLV (May 31, 2014)

I've been spending time recently with the following discs:

























Not exactly household names, but certainly authentic music. Each set contains two discs and includes Overtures, Symphonies, Concertos, ballet and theatre music.


----------



## RICK RIEKERT (Oct 9, 2017)

Ludwig Schon said:


> Nationalism, as Samuel Johnson observed is "the last refuge of a scoundrel".


I'm all in favor of quoting the Great Cham, but let's get it right. According to Boswell's _Life_, "Patriotism [not nationalism] having become one of our topicks, Johnson suddenly uttered, in a strong determined tone, an apophthegm, at which many will start: 'Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel.' But let it be considered, that he did not mean a real and generous love of our country, but that pretended patriotism which so many, in all ages and countries, have made a cloak for self-interest."

Boswell tells us that Dr. Johnson made this famous pronouncement that patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel on the evening of April 7, 1775. A year earlier, Johnson had printed _The Patriot_, in which he stated that "A patriot is he whose publick conduct is regulated by one single motive, the love of his country; who, as an agent in parliament, has, for himself, neither hope nor fear, neither kindness nor resentment, but refers every thing to the common interest."

The Patriot Party began life in 1725 as an offshoot of the Whig Party in Great Britain. They later became simply the Patriots, until they were disbanded in 1803. The group was formed in opposition to the ministry of Robert Walpole, the first de facto Prime Minister of Britain. William Pitt the Elder - who would later become Prime Minister himself - became a prominent member of the Patriot Party. This is the eighteenth-century context in which Johnson's quotation must be read.

So, "patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel" was not, in fact, a denunciation of patriotism in general but rather a very specific reference to what Johnson considered the false use of the term 'patriotism' by William Pitt, 1st Earl of Chatham. Johnson actually valued patriotism as an idea, but he was - probably quite rightly - suspicious of those who use the word to describe themselves without following up such a label with any meaningful actions.


----------



## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

NoCoPilot said:


> *Reminder:* The Ukrainian region has been under a number of different governments over the past 32,000 years. We are not here to define who is Ukrainian and who is not.
> 
> Only who was born and/or raised in what is present-day Ukraine. Umkay?


For times before the creation of the modern Ukrainian state, maybe it should be those for whom Ukrainian was the mother tongue?


----------



## ansfelden (Jan 11, 2022)

Mykola Lysenko is considered to be a key figure in ukrainian national music tradition.


----------



## Ludwig Schon (10 mo ago)

RICK RIEKERT said:


> I'm all in favor of quoting the Great Cham, but let's get it right. According to Boswell's _Life_, "Patriotism [not nationalism] having become one of our topicks, Johnson suddenly uttered, in a strong determined tone, an apophthegm, at which many will start: 'Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel.' But let it be considered, that he did not mean a real and generous love of our country, but that pretended patriotism which so many, in all ages and countries, have made a cloak for self-interest."
> 
> Boswell tells us that Dr. Johnson made this famous pronouncement that patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel on the evening of April 7, 1775. A year earlier, Johnson had printed _The Patriot_, in which he stated that "A patriot is he whose publick conduct is regulated by one single motive, the love of his country; who, as an agent in parliament, has, for himself, neither hope nor fear, neither kindness nor resentment, but refers every thing to the common interest."
> 
> ...


Chapeau! An important historical context rejoinder. However, our contemporary use of Johnson's quote is entirely negative, with the positive meaning of patriotism, conflated to reflect the flag waving, xenophobic nationalism that Orban, Johnson and Modi exhibit in spades…


----------



## NoCoPilot (Nov 9, 2020)

Enthusiast said:


> For times before the creation of the modern Ukrainian state, maybe it should be those for whom Ukrainian was the mother tongue?


Might be difficult to discern, with Ukrainian, Russian, Yiddish, German, Polish, Belarusian, Romanian and English all spoken there (in 1897). Only 67.53% of the population today identify Ukrainian as their primary language, another 29.59% identify Russian, but many residents－as in most of Europe－ are bi- or tri-lingual. 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Languages_of_Ukraine


----------



## pianozach (May 21, 2018)

Kiki said:


> The ironic thing is that, after he had revealed the hoax, there were people who refused to believe it was a hoax.


There's a saying:

*It is easier to fool people than it is to convince them they've been fooled.
*
I've seen it framed a couple of different ways as well:

*It is easier to con people than it is to convince them they've been conned.

It is easier to perpetrate a hoax on people than it is to convince them they've fallen for a hoax*.


----------



## NoCoPilot (Nov 9, 2020)

I'm going to have to investigate Mikhail Goldstein's other works, under his own name and "hoaxes" under the names of Balakirev. Glazunov, Tartini, Reicha, and Khandoshkin. I was quite impressed with the "Symphony No.21."


----------



## Kiki (Aug 15, 2018)

Apart from Wikipedia has a page on Ovsianiko-Kulikovsky's Symphony No. 21 (link), Forman and Amoh's Mravinsky Discography, of which the Association for Recorded Sound Collections (arsc-audio.com) has posted an (outdated) copy (PDF link), also includes a detailed account of this hoax, including commentary on some people's refusal to accept it was a hoax. See page 41 to 44. Enjoy!


----------



## Strange Magic (Sep 14, 2015)

Surprised no one has mentioned Leo Ornstein, a much neglected but very fine composer. He composed his last work at the age of ninety-four, a record only exceeded By Elliott Carter. This is the 20th anniversary year of Ornstein's death. His piano concerto and piano quintet are well worth hearing.


----------



## Roger Knox (Jul 19, 2017)

Felix Blumenfeld (1863-1931) composed music for piano and an excellent symphony. He was Vladimir Horowitz's piano teacher. 

According to Wikipedia: "Russian composer, conductor of the Imperial Opera St-Petersburg, pianist, and teacher.
He was born in Kirovograd (in present-day Ukraine)."


----------



## tortkis (Jul 13, 2013)

Sergey Akhunov was born in Kiev in 1967 and moved in Moscow 20 years ago. Here are his message and the music composed during March 7-14.

"After February 24 I've been absolutely paralyzed. I felt only pain and despair, but in the beginning of March I started to realize, that the only way not to get mad is to continue my work. As a result this ADAGIO has appeared. The life of human is so fragile. All our thoughts are for peace!"

ADAGIO: PRAYER FOR PEACE





free download of versions for string orchestra and string quartet.
https://sergeyakhunov.bandcamp.com/album/adagio-prayer-for-peace


----------



## Triplets (Sep 4, 2014)

elgars ghost said:


> Bit tricky, I suppose. Poland didn't exist at all during Chopin's lifetime yet we don't tend to think of him as anything else but Polish.


There was no Czech Republic in the 19th Century but Smetena and Dvorak are always regarded as such


----------



## Triplets (Sep 4, 2014)

Roger Knox said:


> Felix Blumenfeld (1863-1931) composed music for piano and an excellent symphony. He was Vladimir Horowitz's piano teacher.
> 
> According to Wikipedia: "Russian composer, conductor of the Imperial Opera St-Petersburg, pianist, and teacher.
> He was born in Kirovograd (in present-day Ukraine)."


Blumenfeld was Jewish. I remember attending an "Ethnic Festival " in Detroit in the mid seventies with my friend whose parents were born in Ukraine. My friend was performing, wearing the traditional Ukrainian costume and doing the classic dances. I mentioned to his Parents that my grandparents had all been born in Ukraine and I was pointedly informed that since they were Jewish, they couldn't be Ukrainian. I suspect they would have felt the same way about Blumenfeld


----------



## EvaBaron (Jan 3, 2022)

I don’t know if she has been mentioned before but does anyone know Alla Pavlova? The orchestra that I’m in is playing a piece for piano and orchestra from her called Elegy


----------



## NoCoPilot (Nov 9, 2020)

Leonard Bernstein's parents emigrated from Ukraine (what is now Ukraine.)


----------



## Roger Knox (Jul 19, 2017)

Triplets said:


> Blumenfeld was Jewish. I remember attending an "Ethnic Festival " in Detroit in the mid seventies with my friend whose parents were born in Ukraine. My friend was performing, wearing the traditional Ukrainian costume and doing the classic dances. I mentioned to his Parents that my grandparents had all been born in Ukraine and I was pointedly informed that since they were Jewish, they couldn't be Ukrainian. I suspect they would have felt the same way about Blumenfeld


I mentioned Felix Blumenfeld because the criterion for this thread is the composer's birthplace in terms of national boundaries as they are now, with a question mark after "Ukrainian." If saying that he was born in a certain place is seen as assigning his identity, I apologize for not being clearer that I didn't mean that. Needless to say Blumenfeld and other Jews would have been terrified and utterly opposed to the perpetrators of pogroms. I hope that drawing attention to Felix Blumenfeld here will encourage readers to explore him further and at least to listen to his tremendously moving Symphony No. 1 in C Minor (1905-6).


----------



## NoCoPilot (Nov 9, 2020)

Jews and Romani and Gypsies found no welcome in Europe well before 1938. I don't understand it, because it seems like ALL the populations were mobile since the beginning of the Industrial Revolution.

Another discussion for another time, perhaps.


----------



## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

*Reinhold Glière*


----------

