# Beethoven's most underrated piano sonata



## JohannesBrahms

What piano sonata of Beethoven's do you think is the most underrated? For me, it is piano sonata no. 16 in G major. It seems like people don't tend to play that one as much. I think it is a shame, as it is one of my favorites.


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## Ukko

JohannesBrahms said:


> What piano sonata of Beethoven's do you think is the most underrated? For me, it is piano sonata no. 16 in G major. It seems like people don't tend to play that one as much. I think it is a shame, as it is one of my favorites.


Got an opus number for that? I refuse to look it up. When you talk 'underrated', it would be good to say who is doing the rating. If it's Joe Schmoe from Kokomo, he doesn't think much of Op. 2/2.


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## starry

I love Beethoven's 2nd sonata, the slow movement is brilliant but the whole thing is great.


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## StevenOBrien

Beethoven's Piano Sonata No. 25 in G major, Op. 79. I don't think it's a "great work", but I still love it in the same way I'd love something like Eine Kleine Nachtmusik:


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## Ukko

StevenOBrien said:


> Beethoven's Piano Sonata No. 25 in G major, Op. 79. I don't think it's a "great work", but I still love it in the same way I'd love something like Eine Kleine Nachtmusik:


I think that's a useful attitude; Beethoven didn't _always_ have a point to make. The Opus 49s work fine as gentle entertainment, Op. 78 is mostly an excuse for a beer party.


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## KenOC

I don't think any are overrated. But there are two that shouldn't be on the list at all...


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## Kieran

KenOC said:


> I don't think any are overrated. But there are two that shouldn't be on the list at all...


That's interesting! Which two?


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## KenOC

Kieran said:


> That's interesting! Which two?


The answer is obvious.


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## Kieran

KenOC said:


> The answer is obvious.


Not to me! more characters


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## IBMchicago

KenOC said:


> I don't think any are overrated. But there are two that shouldn't be on the list at all...


Opus 49 being one?


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## KenOC

IBMchicago said:


> Opus 49 being one?


Opus 49 being two, in fact. The rest, calling them the "new testament" of music, or of keyboard music anyway, is not overrating them.


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## Dustin

I gotta go with No. 15 in D Major. The opening of this piece moved me immensely from the first time I heard it. It's got such a strong hymn-like serenity that just pierces me. I never hear people talk much about it though.


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## Kieran

KenOC said:


> Opus 49 being two, in fact. The rest, calling them the "new testament" of music, or of keyboard music anyway, is not overrating them.


Ah okay, thanks. But I just read that Beethoven (however reluctantly) submitted them for publication, so perhaps it's only right to include them?


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## KenOC

Kieran said:


> Ah okay, thanks. But I just read that Beethoven (however reluctantly) submitted them for publication, so perhaps it's only right to include them?


The story of the publication of the Op. 49 sonatas, which were written some years earlier, is a bit muddled. Wiki says: "In the case of these two sonatas, it was Caspar van Beethoven, the composer's brother, who decided they were worthy of publication. Against the composer's will, he presented them to a publishing house, thus allowing posterity to hear works that might otherwise have been lost or destroyed."

I have read other views of what actually transpired. But I have never seen a quote of Beethoven wishing the works had been supressed (unlike a couple of other works).

Actually, they are very fine sonatines for beginning pianists. I used to play both -- they were at the upper range of my skill level!


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## Ukko

How did Caspar get to be a 'van'?


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## KenOC

Hilltroll72 said:


> How did Caspar get to be a 'van'?


Don't understand the question.


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## Ukko

KenOC said:


> Don't understand the question.


S'OK, I probably don't understand what a 'van' is. Thinking it's the HRE equivalent of a knighthood - so would only apply to Ludwig - and that the German version is 'von'.


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## KenOC

Hilltroll72 said:


> S'OK, I probably don't understand what a 'van' is. Thinking it's the HRE equivalent of a knighthood - so would only apply to Ludwig - and that the German version is 'von'.


There's no nobility associated with Beethoven's "van". It's just part of the family last name, coming from Holland at some point. During his nephew's custody hearings, Beethoven failed to point this out when the initial sessions were held in the court for nobility. When he accidently admitted that it had no noble connection, the case was moved to the court for commoners, which was more partial to Carl's mother. Beethoven lost that round.

In Germany at that time, I believe "von" had the noble connotation and was, I think, inheritable.


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## Klavierspieler

Op. 54 (No. 22). I really like that sonata and I don't know why it gets so very little attention.


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## KenOC

Klavierspieler said:


> Op. 54 (No. 22). I really like that sonata and I don't know why it gets so very little attention.


I never quite "got" the Op. 54 until I heard Schiff's lecture on it. Then all was clear!


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## Vaneyes

JohannesBrahms said:


> What piano sonata of Beethoven's do you think is the most underrated? For me, it is piano sonata no. 16 in G major. It seems like people don't tend to play that one as much. I think it is a shame, as it is one of my favorites.


No such thing. Now, about Wellington's Victory....


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## KenOC

Vaneyes said:


> No such thing. Now, about Wellington's Victory....


Now wait a moment Vaneyes. You're saying that Wellington's Victory is underrated?


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## hreichgott

Dustin said:


> I gotta go with No. 15 in D Major. The opening of this piece moved me immensely from the first time I heard it. It's got such a strong hymn-like serenity that just pierces me. I never hear people talk much about it though.


I love this one too. The "Pastoral" sonata if you don't object to titles for Beethoven sonatas. Op. 28 for the sticklers. I was just playing the Rondo today and hope to learn the whole thing sometime.


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## Lisztian

I really, really like Op. 2 No. 3, Op. 7, Op. 10 No. 3, Op. 27 No. 1.


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## maestro57

I think Piano Sonata No. 5, Op. 10 No. 1 is underrated, and I think more people need to realize that Appassionata (No. 23, Op. 57) is the best piece of music ever composed.


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## Kieran

I don't think much of Beethoven is under-rated, but there are a few sonatas which get less airplay, mainly because they're less spectacular. I have a soft spot for the g-minor one, #19, but don't hear that played much on LyricFM...


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## apricissimus

Lisztian said:


> I really, really like Op. 2 No. 3, Op. 7, Op. 10 No. 3, Op. 27 No. 1.





maestro57 said:


> I think Piano Sonata No. 5, Op. 10 No. 1 is underrated, and I think more people need to realize that Appassionata (No. 23, Op. 57) is the best piece of music ever composed.


I was just going to say that I love love love the Op. 10 sonatas.

(Appasionata is maybe my favorite, though I don't think it's underrated.)


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## Ukko

apricissimus said:


> I was just going to say that I love love love the Op. 10 sonatas.
> 
> (Appasionata is maybe my favorite, though I don't think it's underrated.)


The Op. 10s are right in Gulda's wheelhouse; his interpretations are excellent.


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## KenOC

I don't think there are *any* Beethoven sonatas that are underrated -- by me anyway. Among the general listening public all but three or four with nicknames are probably underrated on average.


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## Pianoxtreme

The first movement of no. 31 in Ab major is strikingly beautful. That, combined with the fugue in the last movement makes it a glorious sonata that doesn't get the attention that it deserves.


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## Turangalîla

I agree with the OP that Op. 31 No. 1 is under-appreciated-so full of humour and charm. Especially the _painfully_ long and over-ornamented second movement (a parody of Italian opera). It's very funny when performed with the tongue-in-cheek attitude Beethoven had when he wrote it. Then again, perhaps I'm biased since I play the work.

Oh, and I found this hilarious clip just today (they are working on a bit from the aformentioned sonata):


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## Skilmarilion

I really enjoy no. 5 (op. 10, no. 1). The 3rd movement is one of his very best finales, imo.


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## apricissimus

CarterJohnsonPiano said:


> I agree with the OP that Op. 31 No. 1 is under-appreciated-so full of humour and charm. Especially the _painfully_ long and over-ornamented second movement (a parody of Italian opera). It's very funny when performed with the tongue-in-cheek attitude Beethoven had when he wrote it. Then again, perhaps I'm biased since I play the work.
> 
> Oh, and I found this hilarious clip just today (they are working on a bit from the aformentioned sonata):


It takes some bravery on the part of the student to have a lesson like that in front of an audience.


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## Ukko

apricissimus said:


> It takes some bravery on the part of the student to have a lesson like that in front of an audience.


I hope you will pardon my ignorance... aren't many masterclasses set up that way? I certainly agree that it must jack up the stress level, but guessed that is intentional.


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## apricissimus

Hilltroll72 said:


> I hope you will pardon my ignorance... aren't many masterclasses set up that way? I certainly agree that it must jack up the stress level, but guessed that is intentional.


Perhaps. I am not a musician though, and I'm not knowledgeable about this stuff.


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## Pianoxtreme

hreichgott said:


> I love this one too. The "Pastoral" sonata if you don't object to titles for Beethoven sonatas. Op. 28 for the sticklers. I was just playing the Rondo today and hope to learn the whole thing sometime.


Pastoral? It's an excellent sonata, but I wouldn't say it's underrated. I've heard some of my friends play it at their senior recital, and it's one of the few sonatas to have a name. It does get quite a bit of attention compared to say, No. 18 or No. 5.


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## hreichgott

Pianoxtreme said:


> Pastoral? It's an excellent sonata, but I wouldn't say it's underrated.


Maybe not. Really, when we say "underrated," whose ratings are we thinking of?


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## chrisco97

I believe when someone says something is underrated, that simply means they like it more than most people tend to. Same for the overrated thing; they like it less than most people tend to. 

One that I really enjoy that does not seem to get as much attention as the others is the first one (Op. 2).


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## valtys

Pianoxtreme said:


> The first movement of no. 31 in Ab major is strikingly beautful. That, combined with the fugue in the last movement makes it a glorious sonata that doesn't get the attention that it deserves.


Agree with this one. It is probably my favorite Beethoven sonata. The Annie Fischer, Pollini, and Richter performances of this one floors me everytime.


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## Skilmarilion

I'd throw No. 1 into the mix too. Minor key Ludwig is often irresistible!


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## pgpiano

To me it is definitely Sonata op. 54 in F major - a great piece that is almost never played.


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## KenOC

pgpiano said:


> To me it is definitely Sonata op. 54 in F major - a great piece that is almost never played.


A lot of people pass over the Op. 54 because they don't "get it." I was in that group until I listened to Schiff's lecture on the sonata, available (with all the others) at The Guardian's site. Most incredibly highly recommended!

http://music.guardian.co.uk/classical/page/0,,1943867,00.html

 A comment from the Boston Globe about Schiff's playing of the Op. 54 and his lecture as well: "One revelation is his performance of the F-major Sonata, Opus 54, probably the most puzzling and least loved of the 32. Schiff's playing - slightly slower than usual and with great attention to detail - opened it up in a new way. Not surprisingly, his lecture on it is especially insightful."


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## Alydon

Always think op22 is underrated & op78 - the named sonatas seem to fair best, but then again the last three don't have names.


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## Forte

I've listened to some of Andras Schiff's lectures, and I take the stance that the last three piano sonatas (Op. 109-111) can never be rated high enough.

Another big one is Op. 54 in F major, Sviatoslav Richter found it to be one of his favorites.


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## TrevBus

I really have no idea. Don't keep up with "others" views that much. I like them all, so, I guess, for me, NONE.


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## kv466

As nobody I've even known seems to like it as much as I do and rarely at all seeing it mentioned here,...for me, it is the e-flat sonata no.18...which, as Xtreme mentioned above, has a name yet still never gets the love I feel it deserves. Main reason, I feel: Execution. Don't need to tell you who I think recorded it perfectly, and that is why I like it so much.


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## Novelette

I'm a great fan of the Op. 101 Sonata, in A Major.

I don't know whether or not it's frequently performed, but I greatly enjoy it. I imagine a 9 year old Saint-Saens playing this every time I hear it.


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## Forte

Novelette said:


> I'm a great fan of the Op. 101 Sonata, in A Major.
> 
> I don't know whether or not it's frequently performed, but I greatly enjoy it. I imagine a 9 year old Saint-Saens playing this every time I hear it.


Op. 101 isn't very frequently performed. It's actually extremely difficult, and there are subtle technical tricks that get messy especially in the last movement, with fourths. As a matter of fact, I hear Richter went as far as to say once that the A major sonata was even more difficult than the Hammerklavier. Well, either way both are great sonatas and they're ridiculously difficult to play and interpret, which is why they're not performed so often.

Sometimes I wonder if for some of Beethoven's works, technical difficulty prevents a lot of performance and therefore popularity. I don't believe this can be the case for _all_ of his underrated pieces.


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## KenOC

A funny story. Beethoven was quite aware that the Op. 101 was difficult. He wrote to his publisher Steiner that it should be called the "Difficult-to-play Sonata," adding: "For what is difficult is also beautiful, good, great etc. Hence everyone will realize that this is the most lavish praise that can be given, since what is difficult makes one sweat."


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## Forte

I don't believe for a second that there's necessarily a problem with difficulty in music. For some composers like Beethoven, struggle is part of the music. So it can be quite intentional.


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## Musobooks

JohannesBrahms said:


> What piano sonata of Beethoven's do you think is the most underrated? For me, it is piano sonata no. 16 in G major. It seems like people don't tend to play that one as much. I think it is a shame, as it is one of my favorites.


Op.27 No.1 in E flat. It came crashing into my life through Glenn Gould’s playing of the 2nd movement (Scherzo).


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## joen_cph

Well, since almost no-one plays or records the _3 Kurfürsten-Sonaten_, they can't be called 'overrated', at least.


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## Kreisler jr

Yes, the Kurfürstensonaten would be an obvious choice. Compared with op.49 they hardly deserve to be almost completely ignored.
I don't care for op.54, so I think it's relative neglect is not undeserved. The short op.78 and 79 seem to me rather popular and frequently played/recorded.
My candidate would be op.14, especially #2 but both are gems I personally prefer to e.g. op.13.


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## Highwayman

Most of the ones without epithets are underrated imo.


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## Animal the Drummer

Op.31 no.3 in E Flat would be my nomination. The scherzo and the finale in particular have always been favourites of mine but the piece as a whole deserves more attention than it tends to get, in my experience anyway.


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