# Is Baroque "sissy boy" music?



## Cnote11 (Jul 17, 2010)

Thread inspired by M. Martin, who holds the belief that Baroque music is "sissy boy" music near and dear to his heart. There are a few Baroque-era detractors on this board and I'm curious to see them level a critique against the grand Baroque music.


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## LordBlackudder (Nov 13, 2010)

wrong thread


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## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

How long was the baroque era? 100 years+ longer than any other era by far.

What did it yield?

One decent opera (Dido and Aneas)
the 4 seasons
and Bach
+10000 hours of background music


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## neoshredder (Nov 7, 2011)

I guess you are more of a man if you sit through a 80 minute symphony rather than an exciting baroque piece that keeps you interested and wanting more. For me though, I'll take the music that is most interesting. And btw Bach was pretty masculine.


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## neoshredder (Nov 7, 2011)

stomanek said:


> How long was the baroque era? 100 years+ longer than any other era by far.
> 
> What did it yield?
> 
> ...


I don't know if I can stomanek another one of your opinions.


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

Baroque ain't no sissy boy! In terms of dissonance used it goes something like this:

1. 20th Century
2. Baroque
3. Late Romantic

With a huge gap between 2 and 3. Thus:

1. 20th Century
2. Baroque























3. Late Romantic.


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

neoshredder said:


> I guess you are more of a man if you sit through a 80 minute symphony rather than an exciting baroque piece that keeps you interested and wanting more. For me though, I'll take the music that is most interesting. And btw Bach was pretty masculine.


Even his female works


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

neoshredder said:


> I don't know if I can stomanek another one of your opinions.


Your pun is killing me


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## neoshredder (Nov 7, 2011)

The Classical Era is probably the most "sissy boy" music with flower power Mozart.


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## HarpsichordConcerto (Jan 1, 2010)

Of course it is! I agree. Barqoue music is definitely for sissy boys, people in jail, sexually oppressed people, mentality challenged people, people who can't understand English, Italian, French, and Geman (never mind other languages), infidees, maybe even people who are over weight, and people who don't shower daily. That's why _Dido and Aneas_, _Four Seasons_ etc. were written. I mean Bach, of course he was all of the above, he was even sent to prison once in his life.

Let's sign a petition to ban Baroque music.

Edeet: Baroque musik is also for people like me who canot spell properly.


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## jani (Jun 15, 2012)

1. Early romantic era
2. Classical era
3. Late romantic era


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## neoshredder (Nov 7, 2011)

jani said:


> 1. Early romantic era
> 2. Classical era
> 3. Late romantic era


1. Baroque
2. Late 20th Century
3. Early 20th Century

Everything else.


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

Here's what happens to sissyboys in Baroque opera: They get pwnd by scary cross-dressing mezzos:


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## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

neoshredder said:


> I don't know if I can stomanek another one of your opinions.


Hey - that's personal abuse.

Can't this board take a joke.

I love baroque music - I have the phlips LP multi box set of the vivaldi violin concertos - all 100 of them.


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

stomanek said:


> One decent opera (Dido and Aneas)


Pease tell me on what grounds you reject all of these? More than an hour long?

Handel: Giulio Cesare, Rodelinda, Agrippina, Partenope, Rinaldo, Semele, Serse, Ariodante, Hercules, Solomon, Theodora, Teseo, Athalia, Acis and Galatea.
Vivaldi: Ercole sul termodonte, Orlando furioso, Farnace, Orlando finto pazzo
Purcell: the Fairy Queen
Blow: Venus and Adonis
Cavalli: Ercole Amante, Il Giasone, La Didone, La Calisto
Lully: Atys, Armide, Persée, Cadmus et Ermione
Rameau: Hippolyte et Aricie, Les Paladins, Les Boréades, Les Indes Galantes, Castor et Pollux, Zoroastre.


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

stomanek said:


> I love baroque music - I have the phlips LP multi box set of the vivaldi violin concertos - all 100 of them.


Well that's a relief. I'll let my list stand though.


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## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

Baroque is not sissy-boy music - by then men had stopped wearing camp tights-and-codpiece combos and poncing about with shawms and crumhorns(*).


(* - not a reference to our own dear moderator)


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## neoshredder (Nov 7, 2011)

stomanek said:


> Hey - that's personal abuse.
> 
> Can't this board take a joke.
> 
> I love baroque music - I have the phlips LP multi box set of the vivaldi violin concertos - all 100 of them.


Maybe I overreacted. I didn't see a joke in that post though. It sounded like one of those annoying stereotypes that get under your skin. And my comment was a joke to. I don't see ones dislike for anothers opinion in a funny way is personal abuse.


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

neoshredder said:


> Maybe I overreacted. I didn't see a joke in that post though. It sounded like one of those annoying stereotypes that get under your skin.


Got under my skin too. Hence my pompous opera list.


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## Badinerie (May 3, 2008)

Where I'm from, Classical music in its entirety is considered Sissy Boy music....


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## Renaissance (Jul 10, 2012)

You can say that twice. 

Baroque music is not sissy boy music. It is one of my favorite era, and gave many great composers and many great works.


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## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

mamascarlatti said:


> Pease tell me on what grounds you reject all of these? More than an hour long?
> 
> Handel: Giulio Cesare, Rodelinda, Agrippina, Partenope, Rinaldo, Semele, Serse, Ariodante, Hercules, Solomon, Theodora, Teseo, Athalia, Acis and Galatea.
> Vivaldi: Ercole sul termodonte, Orlando furioso, Farnace, Orlando finto pazzo
> ...


OK - is The Fairy Queen an opera as such? You missed King Arthur by the same composer.
I haven't been able to get into Handel opera - I wish I could - though on the topic of this thead - I know one or two gay singers who adore Handel opera - so maybe there is somthing in this sissy boy thing.


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## Praeludium (Oct 9, 2011)

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> Baroque ain't no sissy boy! In terms of dissonance used it goes something like this:
> 
> 1. 20th Century
> 2. Baroque
> ...


Example (apart from works of JS Bach) ?
I must say that the thing which bore me in baroque music is the predictable harmonies and melodic gestures. With predictable harmonies, no true dissonance... the first chord of the chordal part at the end of the Adagio BWV 564 : this is dissonance [:


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## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

neoshredder said:


> Maybe I overreacted. I didn't see a joke in that post though. It sounded like one of those annoying stereotypes that get under your skin. And my comment was a joke to. I don't see ones dislike for anothers opinion in a funny way is personal abuse.


No I mean making fun out of my name - you may think you made a good pun - which it was - but I had to reach for the gin.
If I was serious about dismissing something like the entire baroque era I would have written quite an essay.


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

Praeludium said:


> Example (apart from works of JS Bach) ?
> I must say that the thing which bore me in baroque music is the predictable harmonies and melodic gestures. With predictable harmonies, no true dissonance... the first chord of the chordal part at the end of the Adagio BWV 564 : this is dissonance [:


Maybe you should listen to some Rameau opera if you want surprising harmony and dissonance.


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## Renaissance (Jul 10, 2012)

stomanek said:


> I know *one or two gay singers* who adore Handel opera - so maybe there is somthing in this sissy boy thing.


What is the relevance ?  What has sexual orientation of the listeners or performers to do with the music itself ?


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

stomanek said:


> I haven't been able to get into Handel opera - I wish I could - though on the topic of this thead - I know one or two gay singers who adore Handel opera - so maybe there is somthing in this sissy boy thing.


I think Handel requires some working at it. For example I'm currently exploring Deidamia. On first listen it seemed pleasant enough, but nothing special. I'm now on consecutive listen number four and I'm distinguishing some really lovely arias.

I would recommend Giulio Cesare in the Glyndebourne DVD version. If it doesn't hook you, I despair. It's available in its entirety on Youtube: clicky.



> OK - is The Fairy Queen an opera as such?


It's a masque, so there's a lot of spoken dialogue (very very funny in the Glyndebourne DVD), which I believe Glyndebourne are about to stream for free. But you could play the music as an opera, one glorious aria after another.



> You missed King Arthur by the same composer


.
I was giving a list of my personal favourites, King Arthur isn't (at this point) among them, I've only seen it once. But that could change.


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## neoshredder (Nov 7, 2011)

stomanek said:


> OK - is The Fairy Queen an opera as such? You missed King Arthur by the same composer.
> I haven't been able to get into Handel opera - I wish I could - though on the topic of this thead - I know one or two gay singers who adore Handel opera - so maybe there is somthing in this sissy boy thing.


Do I need to mention some gay composers of later eras? I would say the classical era is the most fluffy era. But that is just a preference. Some like it fluffy. Others like it heavy and crunchy.


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## crmoorhead (Apr 6, 2011)

stomanek said:


> One decent opera (Dido and Aneas)
> the 4 seasons
> *and Bach*
> +10000 hours of background music


Bach is enough for me! Win!


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## crmoorhead (Apr 6, 2011)

mamascarlatti said:


> It's a masque, so there's a lot of spoken dialogue (very very funny in the Glyndebourne DVD), which I believe Glyndebourne are about to stream for free. But you could play the music as an opera, one glorious aria after another.


Really? I'd be very interested in this. I bought an audio recording recently, but haven't really listened to it much. I think I have it scheduled for my 'Saturday opera' sometime soon. Has anyone mentioned Vivaldi's operas yet? I have Orlando Furioso coming to me in the post.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

I remember reading about Charles Ives, who said Mozart's music was 'sissy sounds' (or is this spelt as 'cissies?') and Chopin was like Mozart with a skirt on. Obviously, Charles had no time for Wolfie or Fryderick. He even wasn't a fan of Debussy, who was still considered radical by many at the time, but of course Ives' piano works are more 'dissonant' than Debussy's & more importantly, deliberatly less refined. But Ives did admire J.S. Bach, and Beethoven, and I think Brahms and Dvorak as well.

All this goes to show that this is all subjective and if people think Baroque music is for sissies, for example, then they have a right to that opinion. I am only angered by people dissing certain music if they say/write it in a tone that is primitive and rude, esp. if meant as a targeted put down of other people's equally valid tastes.

There are some composers who did not like Baroque, or tried to get away from what they saw as its stultifying conventions (eg. seen from a 20th century perspective, that is). Harry Partch and Janacek where two I can think of, and I think that many composers who were not 'mainstream' or esp. from outside of Western Europe - like Australian Peter Sculthorpe or Xenakis, originally from Greece - had little time for the wigs or the three B's. They knew their music but did not want to replicate it in their own musics. It was a conscious decision, not based on prejudgements or ignorance, but informed by what they wanted to do as composers.

Speaking for myself, I am no big fan of Baroque music, but I have in recent years gone 'back to Bach.' I have come to really like some of this music, whereas before I thought it basically boring. I still don't like all of his music though, I am more interested in his smaller scale chamber things than anything else, and also his violin concertos.

My interest in music really hots up after the late classical era, Beethoven especially, but also his predecessors Mozart, Haydn, Boccherini. So I'm more of a guy interested in music around 1800 until today.

I don't think Baroque is for sissies. I basically think its just for people who like that type of music. Not everyone likes the more 'challenging' musics, eg. a good deal of 20th century music. & some people like both and then some.

I thik that negative traits like 'sissies' or being anachronistic or rigid in ones tastes is more a quesiton of attitude rather than what music you do or don't listen to.


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## Cnote11 (Jul 17, 2010)

I think the Baroque-era composers were some of the best writers of music and best producers of keyboard music. Hell, the Baroque was so amazing that the sissy classical-era boys had to dumb it down because they couldn't follow along nor write as well.


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## aleazk (Sep 30, 2011)

"sissy boy" music and classical era music are almost the same word, even for a non-native english speaker like me :devil:


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

aleazk said:


> "sissy boy" music and classical era music are almost the same word, even for a non-native english speaker like me :devil:


Mendelssohn is more sissy boy than Mozart.


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

crmoorhead said:


> Really? I'd be very interested in this. I bought an audio recording recently, but haven't really listened to it much. I think I have it scheduled for my 'Saturday opera' sometime soon.


I'd definitely recommend watching the broadcast. The Pyramus and Thisbe part is as funny as anything I've seen in the original play, and the staging is spectacular. And you have Lucy Crowe singing like an angel...



> Has anyone mentioned Vivaldi's operas yet? I have Orlando Furioso coming to me in the post.


They were in my list. I'm collecting them slowly, mainly through the great Naive recordings. Orlando Furioso is great. Farnace with Max Emanuel Cencic is available to watch free on Arte TV for another 126 days at time of writing: clicky


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## StlukesguildOhio (Dec 25, 2006)

I must say that the thing which bore me in baroque music is the predictable harmonies and melodic gestures.

Those who haven't taken the time to delve deep enough into a musical era or form always have the same criticism: it all sounds the same... predictable... boring. I have heard it said of the Baroque, Medieval and Renaissance music, the Classical era, Romanticism, Jazz, Bluegrass, Pop, etc...

With predictable harmonies, no true dissonance...

What the hell does the presence or lack of dissonance have to do with aesthetic merit?

And obviously you've never come across this:






or this:


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## trazom (Apr 13, 2009)

There must be a lot of compensating involved with anyone who uses the term 'sissy boy' music seriously, and I know not everyone in this thread is. Someone brought up the sexist curmudgeonly pig Charles Ives as a reference, which further proves my point. competition between who has more 'masculine' taste is akin to stereotypical jocks comparing ***** sizes.


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## Toddlertoddy (Sep 17, 2011)

What is "sissy" music? (And why is it "sissy boy"?) Are we going to attempt to define this, just like trying to define "fluffy" music or "cheesy" music?

If music is to be classified, shouldn't it be classified by the emotion it evokes (or something like that)?


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## Rapide (Oct 11, 2011)

Cnote11 said:


> Thread inspired by M. Martin,.


Who is M. Martin?


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## HarpsichordConcerto (Jan 1, 2010)

Rapide said:


> Who is M. Martin?


Some sissy.


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## sah (Feb 28, 2012)

This is "Sissi" music:




Sorry, go on.


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## MaestroViolinist (May 22, 2012)

No! It isn't "sissy boy" music.

And I noticed some people discussing Handel. How could anyone call his music sissy boy??? That's just wrong. (Should I try CoAG's "your opinion is *WRONG.*"? )


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## aleazk (Sep 30, 2011)

why in hell CoAG's manners are expanding in this forum?!


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## MaestroViolinist (May 22, 2012)

aleazk said:


> why in hell CoAG's manners are expanding in this forum?!


'Cause they're hilarious. Besides, I wasn't the first to do that. :lol:


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## myaskovsky2002 (Oct 3, 2010)

Cnote11 said:


> Thread inspired by M. Martin, who holds the belief that Baroque music is "sissy boy" music near and dear to his heart. There are a few Baroque-era detractors on this board and I'm curious to see them level a critique against the grand Baroque music.


I haven't opened this thread, you did it. I am sorry, I should have never Unveiled my thoughts.... Tastes cannnot be discussed.

Martin, Repentant


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## HarpsichordConcerto (Jan 1, 2010)

HarpsichordConcerto said:


> Some sissy.


Sorry, myaskovsky2022. I withdraw my comment. I honestly did not realise "M. Martin" was referring to you. Apologies if this caused offence.

HarpsichordConcerto, apologetic


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## myaskovsky2002 (Oct 3, 2010)

I have already apologised, I consider the opening of this thread not very kind indeed, rather bad taste.

I have just given my opinion...

OK. NOW. Martin is not Martin but Nitram (my secret personality)

I love Baroque music
I love Naxos


Nitram


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

trazom said:


> ...sexist curmudgeonly pig Charles Ives as a reference, which further proves my point....


Well, he was also a brilliant composer. & as a millionaire - since he made it big in his day job, the insurance business - he gave heaps of money to charities, including setting up a foundation/bequest fund or two to help specific causes of people in need. When he went to London, he was apalled by the poverty in the slums of the city, which had not changed much since Charles Dickens' times. Ives I think was a good man at heart and he spoke directly through his music. Please don't pull him down to prove your 'point' (or more likely agenda, whatever it is).

I only mentioned him to say that if its alright for Ives to be critical of certain 'sacred cow' composers, so too is it okay for any listener to do the same. But its about attitude. If a person's agenda is toileting one composer and at the same time correspondingly elevate or deify another, then I think that behaviour is just very 'low.' But who cares? People can do anything they like here, as long as they don't literally break the rules with their 'under the radar' and 'covert' ways. It's open slather.


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## Very Senior Member (Jul 16, 2009)

stomanek said:


> I love baroque music - I have the phlips LP multi box set of the vivaldi violin concertos - all 100 of them.


You had me fooled, again. Looks like another example of you saying one thing and apparently meaning the opposite, eg your recent jab at Haydn's "average" symphonies but which, when questioned, it turns out you would prefer to Mozart's on a desert island. The suggestion that there was only decent opera written in the Baroque era was bound to attract a sceptical response.


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## Very Senior Member (Jul 16, 2009)

stomanek said:


> ....I know one or two gay singers who adore Handel opera - so maybe there is somthing in this sissy boy thing.


Hello sailor, good for you. You know what they say about two swallows ...


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## Very Senior Member (Jul 16, 2009)

aleazk said:


> why in hell CoAG's manners are expanding in this forum?!


Didn't you know? It's the forum equivalent of what's known as "Gresham's Law" in economics. Look it up in Wikipedia. Things should become clear.


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## Very Senior Member (Jul 16, 2009)

Sid James said:


> .... If a person's agenda is toileting one composer and at the same time correspondingly elevate or deify another, then I think that behaviour is just very 'low.' But who cares? People can do anything they like here, as long as they don't literally break the rules with their 'under the radar' and 'covert' ways. It's open slather.


Is that official policy? I'd be interested to know.


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

Baroque is very homosexual music, Wagner is a real man's music.


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

Couchie said:


> Baroque is very homosexual music, Wagner is a real man's music.


Then you can keep it, you hairy-chested green monster, you.


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## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

If you listen to the counter tenor parts in a Handel opera you would not only think it sissy boy music - you would be convinced a sissy boy was singing the part. I think that is what stops me enjoying Handel - I just hate counter tenor singing. Thank goodness it is absent from Mozart.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

Couchie said:


> Baroque is very homosexual music, Wagner is a real man's music.


Well they're both for the 'limp wristed' members of our community. Baroque composers looked like 'queens,' in stockings, powdered wigs, you could hardly tell the guys apart from the girls. & Wagner, you must know about him, his 'secrets.' He liked to sit (or half recline) on his recamier - a fancy sofa - and stroke some fine satin or velvet whilst bathed in his favourite expensive perfume. I'm not joking here, I've read this in a book! Anyhow, how do you think the guy got into so much debt? This was the reason, he was a METROSEXUAL.

So there. Forget Baroque and Wagner, go for Ives. A man who in his youth would ride horses on the farm in Connecticut, chop logs for firewood, go fishing, go to the tavern and have a cool tankard of real man's ale. This man was macho alright. Forget your wussy, sissy BAroque wigs in leotards and Wagner with his perfumes. As Mr. Ives said BE A MAN, TAKE IT LIKE A MAN!!!

(Disclaimer - THIS IS ALL IN JEST).


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## MaestroViolinist (May 22, 2012)

stomanek said:


> If you listen to the counter tenor parts in a Handel opera you would not only think it sissy boy music - you would be convinced a sissy boy was singing the part. I think that is what stops me enjoying Handel - I just hate counter tenor singing. Thank goodness it is absent from Mozart.


This is not sissy boy music. (I know you're talking about opera but whatever).


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

Very Senior Member said:


> Is that official policy? I'd be interested to know.


I'm not a moderator here, I'm not impartial, but what I'm saying is I hate false dichotomies like eg. composer x is great, but composer y is ****. C'mon guys, you all know better than give us that drivel, we are all intelligent human beings here (I hope!?).


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## Praeludium (Oct 9, 2011)

StlukesguildOhio said:


> I must say that the thing which bore me in baroque music is the predictable harmonies and melodic gestures.
> 
> Those who haven't taken the time to delve deep enough into a musical era or form always have the same criticism: it all sounds the same... predictable... boring. I have heard it said of the Baroque, Medieval and Renaissance music, the Classical era, Romanticism, Jazz, Bluegrass, Pop, etc...
> 
> ...


I have heard of the Rebel music - but not the Biber, which is great. And I know there's _some_ highly dissonant and audacious baroque music.

I have actually listened to a fair amount of Baroque music considering I started listening classical music two years ago and a lot of what I've heard often sounded quite boring to my ears, period. When I go to a concert of baroque music, after about 30 minutes I begin to feel tired to hear similar harmonies, cadences, forms, melodies. 
And they're often similar - all the composers were super-productive and wrote in the same idiom using the same forms.

Of course there are exceptions - spanish baroque guitar music, for instance, but most of the time I'm reluctant to listen to too much baroque music for that very reason. I like sensual harmonies and modulations, so I'm often disappointed.

Aesthetic merit can not be related to dissonance and harmonies only, but I think that's the kind of thing which make the great composers as great as they're : they went really further than others in their musical research. And I often have the impression than many baroque composers wrote a lot but didn't care much for exploring unknown territories. Of course this isn't necessarily true for the likes of Bach, Rameau, Haendel, etc.


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## neoshredder (Nov 7, 2011)

Get this cd if you think Vivaldi didn't explore.


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## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

MaestroViolinist said:


> This is not sissy boy music. (I know you're talking about opera but whatever).


I was referring specifically to counter tenor in baroque opera.


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## Aksel (Dec 3, 2010)

Couchie said:


> Baroque is very homosexual music, Wagner is a real man's music.


But if one is a homosexual who both likes baroque music and Wagner?


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## neoshredder (Nov 7, 2011)

Yeah some homosexuals like it manly. Llike Judas Priest. Wagner could be your turbo lover. Sorry had to use a song reference to it from him.


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## crmoorhead (Apr 6, 2011)

Sid James said:


> I'm not a moderator here, I'm not impartial, but what I'm saying is I hate false dichotomies like eg. composer x is great, but composer y is ****. C'mon guys, you all know better than give us that drivel, we are all intelligent human beings here (I hope!?).


Goodness me, you can't be THAT naive!  If we were all intelligent, we might be doing something infinitely more useful with our time, like working in insurance! At least Charles Ives was a millionaire who could afford to spend a little time on such frivolrous activities.

I'm off to chop some wood.

#I'm a lumberjack and I'm OK....#


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

I thought Michael Palin was dead


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

Couchie said:


> Baroque is very homosexual music, Wagner is a real man's music.


Are you implying that Wagner's music is female?


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

crmoorhead said:


> Goodness me, you can't be THAT naive!  If we were all intelligent, we might be doing something infinitely more useful with our time, like working in insurance! At least Charles Ives was a millionaire who could afford to spend a little time on such frivolrous activities.
> 
> I'm off to chop some wood.
> 
> #I'm a lumberjack and I'm OK....#


:lol:...man that was a classic. LOL material, that surely is. I think you are a poet. Or a lumberjack-poet...or are the two not compatible?

Is there a dating site where a lumberjack who writes poetry and listens to Charles Ives wants to meet a perfumier who listens to Wagner (or a maker of wigs, whatever they're called, who listens to Baroque music?).

Which reminds me, the famous quote by Ives, his joke that if he was a dead composer writing dissonant music (or decomposing...boom-tish), then that is not a problem, but if he's a living composer doing it and "... if he has a nice wife and some nice children, how can he let the children starve on his dissonances."

Might be relevant to this very thread, actually. I wonder if Rebel's Baroque music that is quite intense ('the elements' I think its called), I wonder if it was liked, well received or played a lot in his day? Or was it something that saw the light of day after his death? Did he only/mainly get bread and butter music performed during his lifetime, music that's hardly played now compared to 'the elements?' Or was that dissonant piece something the bluestocking aristocrats heard once or twice and said something like 'how interesting, Mr. Rebel, but we like your 'sedate' and 'conventional' stuff more, do go back and compose more of that, please?'

I know that the 'Sturm und drang' period in mid 18th century didn't last long in music, and part of the reason is that it was atypical of the 'galant style' which mainly had things with major (not minor) keys. Eg. only about 10-15 per cent of music of the Classical Era was written in minor keys.

So, the 'plot' thickens...


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

Praeludium said:


> ...
> Aesthetic merit can not be related to dissonance and harmonies only, but I think that's the kind of thing which make the great composers as great as they're : they went really further than others in their musical research. And I often have the impression than many baroque composers wrote a lot but didn't care much for exploring unknown territories. Of course this isn't necessarily true for the likes of Bach, Rameau, Haendel, etc.


Well, to be fair, I think that both the Baroque and Classical eras are important to know, even if you are into other (eg. more recent) periods of classical musics.

My reason initially was to 'flesh out' the innovations of these periods, innovations (and conventions & rules too) that paved the way for Beethoven and beyond, which is my focus for classical music (eg. since about 1800, more or less).

These things came about in the period the wigs were active:
- Counterpoint
- Theme and variations form
- Sonata form
- Other often used forms like Rondo-allegro
- Equal temperament
- Improvisation (cadenzas in concertos, etc.)

...and so on.

Of course, as the saying goes, 'rules are meant to be broken.' & so they were, esp. with Beethoven and after, as the patronage of classical music became more tilted towards the middle classes (bourgeois) and away from the aristocracy. Then again, tradition has remained important, witness the 'back to Bach' movement started by Mendelssohn but coming to fruition between the two world wars (eg. with guys like Bartok, Stravinsky, Schoenberg all taking on the above things that I listed and more and refashioning them, updating them, to the 'modern' era). & of course, after the war, with the rise of vinyl, more and more 'wig' music has been put to disc, and also in the post-1945 decades you had more emphasis on period instruments and 'historically informed performance.' But all people here know this, I'm just attempting to add it to the mix of this half serious, half not so serious, thread.


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## Head_case (Feb 5, 2010)

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> I thought Michael Palin was dead


Yes but he got better.


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## Philip (Mar 22, 2011)

Are you saying clavichorder is a sissy??


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## crmoorhead (Apr 6, 2011)

Sid James said:


> Is there a dating site where a lumberjack who writes poetry and listens to Charles Ives wants to meet a perfumier who listens to Wagner (or a maker of wigs, whatever they're called, who listens to Baroque music?).


Very probably! Sounds like one helluva dinner party at any rate. 

On your other points, I agree. Unless you are lucky enough to have a patron who loves the latest thing in music, you aren't going to pay the bills with unconventional styles. Wagner vs Mozart, for example. Shostakovich also said something along the lines of "Never do film music! Never! Except if you have no money, then it's ok."

I think the birth of music that is different from the norm usually relies on the following:

1. Already having money through another job, inheritance or fame.
2. Having tenure or the priviledge to work in isolation.


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

Aksel said:


> But if one is a homosexual who both likes baroque music and Wagner?


Your life is the sum of a remainder of an unbalanced equation inherent to the programming of the Matrix. You are the eventuality of an anomaly, which despite my sincerest efforts I have been unable to eliminate from what is otherwise a harmony of mathematical precision...


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

But didn'tcha know, ALL music is sissy-boy music, especially the non-pop genres of Jazz and Classical - the only people who like that wussy sissy-boy music are gay men and neurotic women 

Ha, haa, haaa, haaaa, haaaaaaaaaaaaaaa.

Fact is, the pathetic 'challenge' of the original is a ridiculous worn-out erroneous cliche statement not worthy of any response whatsoever.


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

stomanek said:


> I was referring specifically to counter tenor in baroque opera.


Last I checked, unless you are talking about the past barbaric practice of turning boys into castrati, it takes _huevos_ to be a counter-tenor, the basic requirement being that the singer is male


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## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

PetrB said:


> Last I checked, unless you are talking about the past barbaric practice of turning boys into castrati, it takes _huevos_ to be a counter-tenor, the basic requirement being that the singer is male


No there are male singers who sing in the same range as soprano or mezzo - they sound like sissy boys - I hate that type of singing.


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## Aksel (Dec 3, 2010)

stomanek said:


> No there are male singers who sing in the same range as soprano or mezzo - they sound like sissy boys - I hate that type of singing.


Yeah, no.


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

Aksel said:


> Yeah, no.


Take that, Achille! Killer coloratura and all!


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

PetrB said:


> But didn'tcha know, ALL music is sissy-boy music, especially the non-pop genres of Jazz and Classical - the only people who like that wussy sissy-boy music are gay men and neurotic women
> ...


The Classical composers worth their salt where ONLY the ones that wore wigs, so of course, they're all sissy boys.

But NOT jazz, are you callin' Miles Davis or Charlie 'Bird' Parker sissy boys? If that's the case, man I've got a huge bone to pick with you! 



> ...
> Fact is, the pathetic 'challenge' of the original is a ridiculous worn-out erroneous cliche statement not worthy of any response whatsoever.


I think it is worthy of a response, but some 'sacred cows' and 'untouchable' ideologies may have to be challenged (themselves being kind of like cliches), but let's face it most music fans - whether fans of classical or other musics - don't want to go there, don't want to challenge their thinking or 'the system.' So we just dismiss these kinds of things outright as if they don't exist, shove them under the carpet. But really, I don't care, 'you can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink' as the saying goes.


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## BurningDesire (Jul 15, 2012)

First off, I don't see whats wrong with femininity, so I don't know why it would be bad if Baroque was inherently feminine music, or if feminine people really enjoyed it. If sissy means boring or crappy, then just say boring and crappy. We don't need to associate that with femininity because there's no good reason to. Most of the Baroque music I enjoy is the very early Baroque, and the later stuff by Johann Sebastian Bach and Antonio Vivaldi. Alot of Baroque music, to me, is too formulaic and samey, not much personality from piece to piece, even with famous artists like Handel, but Bach and Vivaldi have pretty distinct styles and personalities in their works. Still, I'm no expert in that period, so I'm sure there's probably others I'd rather enjoy if I had the chance to listen to them. 

I also really love Francois Couperin, but oddly, unlike with Bach, I prefer his keyboard pieces played on a modern piano rather than harpsichord. With Bach, I think the timbre of the harpsichord really enhances the drama of his pieces, and they sound weaker on piano, but with Couperin, with all of his very specific ornimentations the music sounds very cluttered on harpsichord, but on a piano, where you can play notes at different dynamics, his music has a great depth to it and coherence. Perhaps Couperin was futurist, imagining one day an instrument would be invented that could ideally play his music XD or perhaps he wrote with a clavichord in mind?


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## Klassik (Mar 14, 2017)

> Is Baroque "sissy boy" music?


Absolutely not! What's so sissy about it? I like Romantic era music, don't get me wrong, but it would probably be more "sissy" with all it's accentuated emotions and all of that.


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## Vaneyes (May 11, 2010)

*"Careful with thy tongue."

*


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## ArtMusic (Jan 5, 2013)

Cnote11 said:


> ....who holds the belief that Baroque music is "sissy boy" music near and dear to his heart.....


That idea is completely unfounded. Utterly.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

ArtMusic said:


> That idea is completely unfounded. Utterly.


To be fair ArtMusic the O.P dates from 2010  
But I do agree with you totally.


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## ArtMusic (Jan 5, 2013)

Pugg said:


> To be fair ArtMusic the O.P dates from 2010
> But I do agree with you totally.


I didn't notice. It is therefore an outdated view.


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## christomacin (Oct 21, 2017)

No, it isn't. Anything else you need help with?


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

christomacin said:


> No, it isn't. Anything else you need help with?


Cheeky.........


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## Guest (Oct 23, 2017)

ArtMusic said:


> I didn't notice. It is therefore an outdated view.


It is not only outdated but completely nonsensical.A little bit historical insight helps to see things in perspective.


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