# Mahler - Symphony No. 1 ("Titan")



## HansZimmer (11 mo ago)

How do you rate this piece?

Conductor: Michael Gielen 
Orchestra: SWR Symphonieorchester


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## Rogerx (Apr 27, 2018)

Excellent , it's such a stunning piece, Rafael Kubelik. Solti Bernstein, ( Sony) and Abbado are my favourites  .


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## Merl (Jul 28, 2016)

The first Mahler symphony I got into and still my favourite. I've got silly numbers of recordings of this one.


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## Xisten267 (Sep 2, 2018)

Excellent, of course, as are all Mahler symphonies. Nonetheless, I prefer most of his later compositions over this work, and I rate it as an 8.5 out of 10 in terms of how much I like it.


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## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

Probably the most startling, original First Symphony ever written. It didn't register with me way back when. I had the legendary Horenstein/LSO recording on Nonesuch (who didn't?) and it took several playings before it began to really sink in. I've played it many times and it still thrills me. (Although that last page of contrabassoon/bassoon 3 is pretty annoying.)


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## Beethoven123 (Nov 25, 2021)

My favourite first symphony; excellent, no doubt about it. Although it’s not even the best Mahler symphony, it’s still easily excellent.


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## haziz (Sep 15, 2017)

Not so good and not so bad. I don't regard Mahler with the same degree of adulation as many do here on TC. He wrote a great bleeding chunk of a symphony (the first 3 movements of Symphony No. 2), and an OK symphony (No. 4). I dislike most of the rest and particularly dislike Nos. 3 & 8. No. 1 is listenable but not great.


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## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

Very good, the first movement ist mostly excellent, the 3rd also, I find the 2nd mvmt a bit trite (although it fits well into the whole, maybe even better in the older 5 movement version when it once had the subtitle "under full sail"/mit vollen Segeln) and the finale too long and not fitting so well with the rest. But especially the beginning of the first movement holds up well with much later Mahler (or other late romantic/impressionist/early modern music).


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

It is not called 'Titan' though. Too bad that people still refer to it in that way. sometimes.

I voted excellent because it scores the rare 6/6 on the Artrockometer (as do #2, 4, 6, 9, and 10).


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

I concur Art. I would also add 3, 5, 7 & 8 to your list. The Philistines may disagree!😎


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## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

Many symphonies and other works are called made up names never encountered by their composers, so I don't think it is the worst thing that a symphony is sometimes incorrectly called a name that correctly applied to an earlier version that was very similar, except for one additional movement and some slight changes, these latter making fewer differences than often are between versions of Bruckner symphonies.


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## RobertJTh (Sep 19, 2021)

Brilliant symphony, revolutionary for its time in its eclectic approach to quotations and stylistic incongruities. At the time of Wagner's death - the first modernist - Mahler was already inventing musical postmodernism.
It's my least favorite of his symphonies though. I'm with Kreisler here: beautiful first movement that already has lots of elements that would define Mahler's later style, then it becomes more or less standard late-romantic fare. I never liked the scherzo (the scherzo from Roth's symphony, which allegedly served as the model for Mahler's is actually much better!) and I find the irony of the 3rd movement laid on a bit too thickly. Mahler would do this kind of thing in a much more subtle way later. The finale has its moments, but it's overly long, relies on superficial effects too much and can't sustain its rather meager melodic material.


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## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

According to Mahler he didn't encounter the Rott symphony until he worked on his own 3rd symphony. Now he might have been not remembering correctly or even obscuring his closeness to Rott (although I find the latter highly unlikely) but the scherzo is rather generic and with the common background of Bruckner, Schubert etc. and actual folk laendlers doesn't really need Rott as an explanation, I think. 
(There is a trio or subsidiary theme in some Bruckner symphony that is almost identical to a trio or scherzo from some Beethoven violin sonata, but I am pretty sure it's not an intentional quotation, just based on common 19th century laendler motives.)


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## Brahmsian Colors (Sep 16, 2016)

One of my favorite Mahler symphonies along with the 3rd, 4th and 9th. My preferred interpretation is Walter's with the Columbia Symphony.


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## Waehnen (Oct 31, 2021)

I quite like the 1st Symphony by Mahler. The first movement is great. The second movement is OK. The third movement melodies sound like something I would have improvised on the piano at elementary school -- it must be simple on purpose, but still I´d like a bit more effort. I like the finale, though.

Overall, nothing about this symphony 'irritates' me and I am able to enjoy everything, which is good!

(The occasionally irritating rhythmic stuff is from the 4th symphony onwards, like the forever staccato hopping on one note, the forever dotted rhythms and the forever marching).


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## Neo Romanza (May 7, 2013)

Mahler is in my 'Top 5', but I don't rate his _Symphony No. 1_ as highly as his _Symphony No. 2_ for example. This 2nd symphony was a huge leap in quality and maturity. I will say this about 1st symphony, it has one hell of a finale. That last movement is stunning and has the emotional charge that the best Mahler has within it.


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## Neo Romanza (May 7, 2013)

haziz said:


> I don't regard Mahler with the same degree of adulation as many do here on TC...


We all know you don't and it begs me to ask you: why even post on this thread if you're not even a fan of the composer to begin with? If you don't like any of the later symphonies, then you don't like Mahler's music. If _Das Lied von der Erde_ doesn't do anything for you or _Symphony No. 6_ leaves you reaching for the stop button, then you don't belong on this thread. Sorry, but it would be the equivalent of me going on a Tchaikovsky thread and saying the 1st symphony was 'okay', but the rest of them weren't any good. Why even bother?


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## haziz (Sep 15, 2017)

Neo Romanza said:


> We all know you don't and it begs me to ask you: why even post on this thread if you're not even a fan of the composer to begin with? If you don't like any of the later symphonies, then you don't like Mahler's music. If _Das Lied von der Erde_ doesn't do anything for you or _Symphony No. 6_ leaves you reaching for the stop button, then you don't belong on this thread. Sorry, but it would be the equivalent of me going on a Tchaikovsky thread and saying the 1st symphony was 'okay', but the rest of them weren't any good. Why even bother?



???


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## Neo Romanza (May 7, 2013)

haziz said:


> ???


You clearly pointed out you're not into Mahler's music, so I'm asking with this admittance on your part, why bother coming to a thread that's dedicated to one of his symphonies? If there was a thread of each symphony on this forum, would you post the same thing you posted here? I'm just wondering what is the point of posting when you're not a fan of the composer? It just looks bad on you more than anything.


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## Brahmsianhorn (Feb 17, 2017)

Neo Romanza said:


> You clearly pointed out you're not into Mahler's music, so I'm asking with this admittance on your part, why bother coming to a thread that's dedicated to one of his symphonies? If there was a thread of each symphony on this forum, would you post the same thing you posted here? I'm just wondering what is the point of posting when you're not a fan of the composer? It just looks bad on you more than anything.


I am a huge Mahler fan and could not DISAGREE more with your posts against haziz. The thread does not say "Mahler fans only." Quite the contrary, it asks how you rate the first symphony and even allows you to choose "Horrible" and "Quite bad" as choices. So clearly the thread is aimed at getting a broad range of opinions, from good to bad, and haziz's should be completely welcome.

I enjoy getting a wide range of opinions, even when someone disagrees with my taste. Life would be boring if we agreed on everything. There would be no need for this forum.


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## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

I am not sure if there is anything as original and daring in #2 as the beginning (or maybe even most) of the 1st movement of #1, the rest might be more uneven in the earlier work.

The 3rd movement has not completely shed the earlier rudimentary program. (One could argue that most movements in the first 4 Mahler symphonies still bear some rudiments of programmatic ideas, cf. the commentary/"plot" to #2, the later discarded titles for #3). The inspiration was a grotesque picture of animals burying the hunter. Then there is the Klezmer music in the woodwinds/trumpets and finally the central section that stems from the last lied of Lieder eines fahrenden Gesellen, the dream under the linden tree. I don't claim to know how this fits into the symphony but I like the movement very much 








Moritz von Schwind: "Wie die Thiere den Jäger begraben" (1850)


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## Neo Romanza (May 7, 2013)

Brahmsianhorn said:


> I am a huge Mahler fan and could not DISAGREE more with your posts against haziz. The thread does not say "Mahler fans only." Quite the contrary, it asks how you rate the first symphony and even allows you to choose "Horrible" and "Quite bad" as choices. So clearly the thread is aimed at getting a broad range of opinions, from good to bad, and haziz's should be completely welcome.
> 
> I enjoy getting a wide range of opinions, even when someone disagrees with my taste. Life would be boring if we agreed on everything. There would be no need for this forum.


I'm all for differing opinions as, like you said, this poll opens up the choices for those opinions, but It's one thing to say you dislike _this_ symphony, which is what this thread is about, but when you complicate this opinion by stating you're not fond of the other symphonies or really the composer in question, then it feels unnecessary and, more importantly, it doesn't make one bit of sense to volunteer that opinion. Anyway, it looks like we'll just have to agree to disagree.


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## EvaBaron (Jan 3, 2022)

Neo Romanza said:


> I'm all for differing opinions as, like you said, this poll opens up the choices for those opinions, but It's one thing to say you dislike _this_ symphony, which is what this thread is about, but when you complicate this opinion by stating you're not fond of the other symphonies or really the composer in question, then it feels unnecessary and, more importantly, it doesn't make one bit of sense to volunteer that opinion. Anyway, it looks like we'll just have to agree to disagree.


No, you literally said if you don’t like Mahler 6 or DLVDE then you don’t belong on this thread. This thread is about Mahler 1, so he does belong here. And saying that if you don’t like his late symphonies you don’t like Mahler is gatekeeping which works of a composer people can enjoy. There is no agreeing to disagreeing here, you’re just plain wrong about the intention of this thread and who gets to participate


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## Neo Romanza (May 7, 2013)

EvaBaron said:


> No, you literally said if you don’t like Mahler 6 or DLVDE then you don’t belong on this thread. This thread is about Mahler 1, so he does belong here. And saying that if you don’t like his late symphonies you don’t like Mahler is gatekeeping which works of a composer people can enjoy. There is no agreeing to disagreeing here, you’re just plain wrong about the intention of this thread and who gets to participate


And like I told Brahmsianhorn, we'll have to agree to disagree.

P. S. Telling someone they are wrong doesn't make you or anyone else right. It just makes you a person with a differing opinion. Plus, it's only an opinion that I shared and if you don't like it, then you didn't have to respond to it. Also, it should be obvious that I feel I've said nothing wrong regardless of what you or anyone else says. So, yes, we'll have to agree to disagree.

Anyway, let's move on...


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## Neo Romanza (May 7, 2013)

Does anyone remember the first performance they heard of Mahler's 1st? I believe mine was Bernstein with New York Philharmonic on Sony. This set to be exact:










This set is essentially a boxing up of all the 'Bernstein Century' releases. No new remastering whatsoever.


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## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

I think the first I heard was Bruno Walter/Columbia on a cheap and not so great sounding CD of a friend's. The first I owned on CD was Bernstein/Concertgebouw/DG. It's a beautiful recording but I think the 3rd movement is not sufficiently grotesque and the finale also lacks a bit of punch. (I have had similar quibbles with the even better sounding Gielen, IIRC.)
My favorite of the ca. 10 recordings I heard/own(ed) is Kubelik/DG. (I am afraid I don't care enough for the piece to try his live on Audite that some apparently prefer)
Walter/NY or Columbia are also very good but the sound isn't, I don't mind mono for some other music but it's a liability here. (Scherchen's is the only one I got rid of because the sound was fairly poor (mono but ridiculous highlighting of harp and whatnot) and the performance not quite special enough to make up for it.)


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## Neo Romanza (May 7, 2013)

I want to tell Haziz I'm sorry for my boorish behavior. I was out-of-line and, yes, wrong for even bringing any of this up.


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## justekaia (Jan 2, 2022)

Outstanding symphony for a first start. It is a symphony i regularly revert to. But of course Mahler has produced more exhilarating or moving symphonies after his first (2, 3, 5, 9, 10, Das Lied von der Erde),


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## Neo Romanza (May 7, 2013)

justekaia said:


> Outstanding symphony for a first start. It is a symphony i regularly revert to. But of course Mahler has produced more exhilarating or moving symphonies after his first (2, 3, 5, 9, 10, Das Lied von der Erde),


Any favorite performances of the 1st?


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## haziz (Sep 15, 2017)

Neo Romanza said:


> I want to tell Haziz I'm sorry for my boorish behavior. I was out-of-line and, yes, wrong for even bringing any of this up.



Apology accepted. Enjoy the music.


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## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

Neo Romanza said:


> Any favorite performances of the 1st?


There are so many excellent ones. For an ancient version, Mitropoulos in Minnesota still is quite thrilling, but the sound is not to par and is even pretty bad for its time. For a great modern version is at least good sound, Kubelik on DG is my choice. For modern, digital sound and all, I really like the Maazel/VPO recording on Sony. There is nothing wrong with it. But, Manfed Honeck with Pittsburgh on Exton is quite thrilling, too. 

I'm sure that some hot-shot conductor is out there champing at the bit to record the new Breitkopf Mahler critical edition. I heard a live performance of that new edition a few weeks ago, and if you really know the work, especially the scoring, there are some noticeable changes from what we've all had so far. Even a few different harmonic changes. At first I thought maybe the orchestra just screwed up, but no, on the repeat concert Sunday it was played exactly the same.


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## Brahmsianhorn (Feb 17, 2017)

I love the Mitropoulos. I also like Barbirolli, Bernstein/RCO, and Kubelik.

But my absolute favorite is Bruno Walter conducting Toscanini’s NBC orchestra in 1939, shortly after he fled Europe. The concert is electric.


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## golfer72 (Jan 27, 2018)

I think its fantastic. Probably the most impressive first symphony from any composer I can think of. And to think he exceeded it numerous times in later Symphonies. Impressive


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## Neo Romanza (May 7, 2013)

golfer72 said:


> I think its fantastic. Probably the most impressive first symphony from any composer I can think of. And to think he exceeded it numerous times in later Symphonies. Impressive


Not to derail the thread, but some other first symphonies that I admire: Shostakovich, Sibelius, Nielsen, Martinů, Vaughan Williams, Roussel, K. A. Hartmann, Dvořák (this one gets put down a lot, but I love it) and Langgaard.


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## justekaia (Jan 2, 2022)

Neo Romanza said:


> Any favorite performances of the 1st?


Chicago SO-Boulez
Budapest FO-I.Fischer
RCO-Chailly or Jansons
Finnish Radio SO-Lintu
Pittsburgh SO-Honeck
Les Siècles-Roth
Boulez and Ivan Fischer are solid conductors and i like their Mahler interpretations overall, although Boulez conducts various orchestras in the cycle.
The RCO has a splendid orchestra and are Mahler specialists. Chailly and Jansons are great conductors.
Lintu does a great job with the Finnish and you get Blumina as an encore.
Honeck is one of the best conductors alive and his performance in great sound is superb.
Les Siècles have started a cycle and have recorded the first and the fourth with period instruments. Roth achieves miracles with his orchestra.


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## RobertJTh (Sep 19, 2021)

golfer72 said:


> Probably the most impressive first symphony from any composer I can think of.


_cough_ Elgar _cough_
Damn that cold.


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## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

RobertJTh said:


> _cough_ Elgar _cough_
> Damn that cold.


Well, that's certainly what Hans Richter thought, wasn't it? As much as I love and admire the Elgar, it was very traditional and broke no new ground. The opening of the Mahler, that wide octave spread in the strings, was so profoundly new and original.


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## Neo Romanza (May 7, 2013)

mbhaub said:


> Well, that's certainly what Hans Richter thought, wasn't it? As much as I love and admire the Elgar, it was very traditional and broke no new ground. The opening of the Mahler, that wide octave spread in the strings, was so profoundly new and original.


I don't think Elgar broke any new musical ground, did he?


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## haziz (Sep 15, 2017)

Neo Romanza said:


> I don't think Elgar broke any new musical ground, did he?


I don’t think he did, but he did write the greatest cello concerto ever!


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## Neo Romanza (May 7, 2013)

haziz said:


> I don’t think he did, but he did write the greatest cello concerto ever!


Hmmm...I'm not too fond of his _Cello Concerto_ truth be told. I know this opinion is probably blasphemy. I do think he wrote one of the great violin concerti however. I think the overt emotionalism of the _Cello Concerto_ comes across as forced and I think it misses the emotional tug-of-war that is more prominent in the _Violin Concerto_ or 2nd symphony for example. For me, these emotional contrasts are what make Elgar a unique composer.


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## BlackAdderLXX (Apr 18, 2020)

I love it. It was the first Mahler symphony that I really loved. Though I think the introduction was ripped off from Star Trek. Kind of like how Holst ripped off Star Wars. 



Merl said:


> The first Mahler symphony I got into and still my favourite. I've got silly numbers of recordings of this one.


Seems like there's a lot of that going on!


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## Merl (Jul 28, 2016)

BlackAdderLXX said:


> I love it. It was the first Mahler symphony that I really loved. Though I think the introduction was ripped off from Star Trek. Kind of like how Holst ripped off Star Wars.
> 
> 
> 
> Seems like there's a lot of that going on!


This place is full of weirdos who collect multiple versions of the same work. Thankfully I'm not one of them, BA. 😇🤭


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## Brahmsianhorn (Feb 17, 2017)

Even though I like it, I will say that other Mahler symphonies plumb more depth. In fact, if forced to choose it is among my lesser favorite Mahler symphonies, though I like them all and have multiple versions.

Current ranking:

9-5-7-6-4-3-1-2-8

I am quite alone in my opinion of the 2nd, which I find impressive but not terribly compelling on repeated listening. The 8th depends on my mood. Sometimes I can get really into it.


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## golfer72 (Jan 27, 2018)

RobertJTh said:


> _cough_ Elgar _cough_
> Damn that cold.


LOL actually i forgot about Elgar. Big Elgar fan. Still give the edge to Mahler though by a slim margin.


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## BlackAdderLXX (Apr 18, 2020)

Merl said:


> This place is full of weirdos who collect multiple versions of the same work. Thankfully I'm not one of them, BA. 😇🤭


Oh yeah...I wasn't even _thinking_ about you Merl. 😉


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## BlackAdderLXX (Apr 18, 2020)

Brahmsianhorn said:


> I am quite alone in my opinion of the 2nd, which I find impressive but not terribly compelling on repeated listening. The 8th depends on my mood. Sometimes I can get really into it.


Actually no. I pretty much think of #2 and then #8 as the very end of the list for me as well. I just don't see what the fuss is about.


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## LKB (Jul 27, 2021)

Mahler's First is wonderful, when offered in the same exuberant spirit which attends his early songs and cycles. When so rendered, it is excellent indeed.

Favorite recordings:

Mahler - Symphonies Nos. 1, 2 & 3 ~ Leonard Bernstein, Sheila Armstrong, Janet Baker, Christa Ludwig, Wiener Philharmoniker, London Symphony Orchestra https://a.co/d/3iyQPub

And Tennstedt with the CSO:


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## Merl (Jul 28, 2016)

Brahmsianhorn said:


> I am quite alone in my opinion of the 2nd, which I find impressive but not terribly compelling on repeated listening. The 8th depends on my mood. Sometimes I can get really into it.


Like BA, I'm probably with you in preferring many of the others to the 2nd, BHS, but I still love the 1st. Perhaps it's because the 1st was the first one to click with me. I still enjoy the 2nd but agree the 9th is a belter and speaks to me more.


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## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

I'm always up for Mahler's 1st and 3rd. Then it's the 4th and the 9th. The others I have to want to listen to. I suppose if I were to get into technicalities and craftsmanship, I could pick my list apart, but somehow that's how my brain works.

As to the 1st, I have a special connection to it because my grandson's name is Ethan, and as a young boy, I pointed out to him how it starts out with a boy in the woods hearing the bird call his name, "Ethan," and the symphony follows the boy as he grows up. That started a special bonding process between us two, and now he listens to classical music because I do.


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## hoodjem (Feb 23, 2019)

Merl said:


> The first Mahler symphony I got into and still my favourite. I've got silly numbers of recordings of this one.


Me too. So tuneful.

Plenty of good recordings.
James Judd with the Florida Philarmonic Orchestra on Harmonia Mundi is particularly well recorded.


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

Manxfeeder said:


> I'm always up for Mahler's 1st and 3rd. Then it's the 4th and the 9th. The others I have to want to listen to. I suppose if I were to get into technicalities and craftsmanship, I could pick my list apart, but somehow that's how my brain works.
> 
> As to the 1st, I have a special connection to it because my grandson's name is Ethan, and as a young boy, I pointed out to him how it starts out with a boy in the woods hearing the bird call his name, "Ethan," and the symphony follows the boy as he grows up. That started a special bonding process between us two, and now he listens to classical music because I do.


I’m not at all familiar with the ‘Ethan’ theory in Mahler’s 1st. I’ve read quite a bit about the 1st and I don’t recall seeing this. What’s your source? 🤔


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## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

Barbebleu said:


> I’m not at all familiar with the ‘Ethan’ theory in Mahler’s 1st. I’ve read quite a bit about the 1st and I don’t recall seeing this. What’s your source? 🤔


My source is the authority I have as a grandfather to stretch the truth a little in order to get my grandkid interested in the piece.


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

Manxfeeder said:


> My source is the authority I have as a grandfather to stretch the truth a little in order to get my grandkid interested in the piece.


Very good Manx. Nice move. I just tend to play stuff when I’m playing with my granddaughter and see if she seems to like it. So far I’ve struck lucky with Barber’s adagio and Donovan’s Mellow Yellow!😎


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## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

It's a cuckoo and he might call "Gus - tav" as well as "E - than" 
(Or "Ging heut"... morgen übers Feld" although the bird mentioned there is a finch)


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

LKB said:


> Mahler's First is wonderful.......
> 
> And Tennstedt with the CSO


The Tennstedt/CSO is a great version...really powerful....


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