# This music is unreal (new I think?) Does anybody know this? + new violin release?!



## classicalmusicfinder (9 mo ago)

I came across this music, which I think is a new release. This music is extremely unique; I have never heard a person play or write piano like this, so incredibly detailed. It is deeply affecting, and speaks to the soul and mind in a very intimate way. The composer is Mark Iter. I'll link the Spotify but I'm sure you ca find it elsewhere if you want. The album I found is called "A Series of Compositions". Does anybody know this? Thank you guys


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## NoCoPilot (Nov 9, 2020)

Two responses.

One, it sounds like player piano music. Who was it that worked with player pianos? Conlan Nancarrow?

Two, it sounds a bit like Sorabji. Check out Kaikhosru Shapurji Sorabji, if you're not familiar.


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## classicalmusicfinder (9 mo ago)

NoCoPilot said:


> Two responses.
> 
> One, it sounds like player piano music. Who was it that worked with player pianos? Conlan Nancarrow?
> 
> Two, it sounds a bit like Sorabji. Check out Kaikhosru Shapurji Sorabji, if you're not familiar.



That is fascinating. Did you have a specific piece by Sorabji in mind? I definitely see the comparison to be made in terms of the range, combination of tones, and complex rhythm. Though, I do think the emotional tone/depth/expression is quite different.


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## NoCoPilot (Nov 9, 2020)

I have a theory. I think YOU are Mark Iter, and you've posted this thread here and here and on YouTube to try to drum up interest. When I said it sounds like player piano music, what I meant is that it sounds like MIDI piano, with very little dynamic expression. YouTube lists it as newly posted as of 4/10/2022.

But hey, it's just a guess.


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## classicalmusicfinder (9 mo ago)

NoCoPilot said:


> I have a theory. I think YOU are Mark Iter, and you've posted this thread here and here and on YouTube to try to drum up interest. When I said it sounds like player piano music, what I meant is that it sounds like MIDI piano, with very little dynamic expression. YouTube lists it as newly posted as of 4/10/2022.
> 
> But hey, it's just a guess.



Haha, I am certainly not Mark Iter, if you saw me try and play an instrument you'd see what I mean. Though, that IS me on reddit! I noticed that the pieces are brand new and that's kinda why I'm posting everywhere about it, I figure nobody knows them and I can't find any info online. If the real Mark Iter is seeing this, consider hiring me for PR. 

Side note, can you tell for sure that this is MIDI? Are there circumstances where live instruments tend to sound how you've described? If this isn't really what you guys do here, I can take my posts down. I seriously am just trying to get more info because I am fascinated by these. Thanks


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## Vasks (Dec 9, 2013)

classicalmusicfinder said:


> can you tell for sure that this is MIDI?


Just the higher notes in first few seconds do not sound like a real piano.


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## classicalmusicfinder (9 mo ago)

Vasks said:


> Just the higher notes in first few seconds do not sound like a real piano.


Of 60? I can hear a little glitch when I first hit play in the little preview thing here. Is that what you mean? On Spotify it doesn't have that, not sure if that changes something.


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## Vasks (Dec 9, 2013)

I am not on Spotify. The piece's excerpt "60" starts at around the 29 second mark and counts down. So my reference is the first few seconds after "60" starts.

But on another note, it really doesn't matter if you actually were Mark Iter. Plenty of people promote their music here. But if you were, certainly there'd be no need to be deceptive.


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## classicalmusicfinder (9 mo ago)

Vasks said:


> I am not on Spotify. The piece's excerpt "60" starts at around the 29 second mark and counts down. So my reference is the first few seconds after "60" starts.
> 
> But on another note, it really doesn't matter if you actually were Mark Iter. Plenty of people promote their music here. But if you were, certainly there'd be no need to be deceptive.


Oh yeah, thats what I mean. Also guys, I get it. I'm not him. I feel like I need to make sure people know I don't represent this person..

Do any of you have a favorite piece from the album?

Also, when somebody who doesn't listen to classical asks you for a recommendation, what do you say? Seems like a very telling question.


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## Bernamej (Feb 24, 2014)

NoCoPilot said:


> I have a theory. I think YOU are Mark Iter, and you've posted this thread here and here and on YouTube to try to drum up interest. When I said it sounds like player piano music, what I meant is that it sounds like MIDI piano, with very little dynamic expression. YouTube lists it as newly posted as of 4/10/2022.
> 
> But hey, it's just a guess.


Ahhaha Exactly what I thought.
Also sounds like crap, in all aspects.
Anyone today “writing” modern stuff should prove they can actually compose and WRITE A FUGUE before we grant them any sustained attention.
Even Gould have proven his abilities this way, and he was never considered a composer.
Write a fugue, a good one, and a sonata, and if it holds water, we’ll try the random stuff.


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## classicalmusicfinder (9 mo ago)

Bernamej said:


> Ahhaha Exactly what I thought.
> Also sounds like crap, in all aspects.
> Anyone today “writing” modern stuff should prove they can actually compose and WRITE A FUGUE before we grant them any sustained attention.
> Even Gould have proven his abilities this way, and he was never considered a composer.
> Write a fugue, a good one, and a sonata, and if it holds water, we’ll try the random stuff.


Well first of all, the term "composer" is a neutral one. It is not positive or negative. Anyone who composes music is a composer, its up to you if they are a good or bad one. Secondly, something as complex as classical music should never be simplified the way you've done. It is insane to say that someone needs to write in either one of two types of pieces to "prove themself". If you think that the style of music discussed is "random", then I have serious concerns for your taste. Whether or not you appreciate this kind of thing, its tones are universal. Your way of determining the worth of composers by suggesting that they have to write certain types of music to prove themself to you, as if that is the point or driving force of creating music, is something I'm sure Beethoven and your fugue writing composers would have loved. This is that typical classical music pretentiousness that isn't actually backed by any valuable musical insight or understanding. I mostly listen to the romantic, baroque, and classical periods, but I have an ever growing appreciation for music like this, which I'm finding has a lot in common with the great composers of the past musically. Okay I've made my case


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## Forster (Apr 22, 2021)

Odd how an internet search for Mark Iter doesn't even bring up the usual FB links.


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## Red Terror (Dec 10, 2018)

Not impressed.


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## 4chamberedklavier (12 mo ago)

classicalmusicfinder said:


> Oh yeah, thats what I mean. Also guys, I get it. I'm not him. I feel like I need to make sure people know I don't represent this person..
> 
> Do any of you have a favorite piece from the album?
> 
> Also, when somebody who doesn't listen to classical asks you for a recommendation, what do you say? Seems like a very telling question.


As NoCoPilot said, the timing of your posts & the Youtube videos makes this too suspicious for us to take your word that you aren't Mark Iter (notice how it sounds like 'marketer'. hmmmmm)

Also, It's far too easy to create poorly made music then pass it off as "modern" to escape from criticism. It's not pretentious to expect composers to at least be competent in the basics (like fugue-writing) if we intend to listen to their modernist-style pieces, just so there's some assurance that they know what they're doing & aren't taking us for a ride.

Bernamej didn't say that Mark Iter isn't a composer. S/he just used Glenn Gould as an example of how important it is to know how to write a fugue. It's important enough that people who weren't considered composers still took the time to study them.


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## classicalmusicfinder (9 mo ago)

4chamberedklavier said:


> As NoCoPilot said, the timing of your posts & the Youtube videos makes this too suspicious for us to take your word that you aren't Mark Iter (notice how it sounds like 'marketer'. hmmmmm)
> 
> Also, It's far too easy to create poorly made music then pass it off as "modern" to escape from criticism. It's not pretentious to expect composers to at least be competent in the basics (like fugue-writing) if we intend to listen to their modernist-style pieces, just so there's some assurance that they know what they're doing & aren't taking us for a ride.
> 
> Bernamej didn't say that Mark Iter isn't a composer. S/he just used Glenn Gould as an example of how important it is to know how to write a fugue. It's important enough that people who weren't considered composers still took the time to study them.


Okay good lord, I found the music seemingly before anyone else right when it was published, which is kind of neat and has never happened to me before. But be warned, if you share music like that, everyone will assume that you are the musician (?). It actually really doesn't matter and at this point I am tempted just to say "sure, I am this guy", but it seems scummy to do that. But once again, whether or not you think I am the composer, you can just interpret the music for yourself. Also, I apologize that this man's name looks like marketer. That one seems like a stretch but I'll give you points for creativity lol. But also that's the actual guys name. Like that is his name on Spotify. Its not my name on here or something. Do you see what I'm saying. His own name that the music is posted under is Mark Iter, if it was a play on words for marketer, does that mean he is the marketer of his own music? Confusing stuff, riveting. On a serious *note* though;

When you say "taking us for a ride", do you mean making us think bad music is actually good? Oh boy. If you have to look at a composers track record to essentially determine your own opinion on if the music is "good" or not, and can't do that by, I don't know, listening to it, than this is also concerning. It is music. Its music. As for it being called "modern", I don't know if you are referring to a specific style or just the fact that this is clearly made in modern times, but I wasn't the one who called it that, and it says nowhere what style it is. So Mark Iter isn't claiming the term "modern" to uh "escape criticism". It is again, music. It doesn't have to fit a mold. Oftentimes the best pieces don't. Instead of saying "this is bad because it isn't a fugue, or a sonata, or made 140 years ago" or any amount of nonsense, I just listened to the music and thought "wow, this is special". Imagine that

Music is of course subjective, but there are still ways to measure it. The depth of the music, tonal maturity, etc. You guys are measuring music in truly one of the worst, most empty ways possible. Definitely disappointing. I like the music, you don't have to, but please have a point to make against it that is actually relevant to the music itself. Not the year it came out or the fact this composer didn't write a fugue, whatever it is.


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## classicalmusicfinder (9 mo ago)

Forster said:


> Odd how an internet search for Mark Iter doesn't even bring up the usual FB links.


Yeah it is strange. I looked around right after listening to the album once and couldn't find any website or anything for him.


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## Bernamej (Feb 24, 2014)

4chamberedklavier said:


> As NoCoPilot said, the timing of your posts & the Youtube videos makes this too suspicious for us to take your word that you aren't Mark Iter (notice how it sounds like 'marketer'. hmmmmm)
> 
> Also, It's far too easy to create poorly made music then pass it off as "modern" to escape from criticism. It's not pretentious to expect composers to at least be competent in the basics (like fugue-writing) if we intend to listen to their modernist-style pieces, just so there's some assurance that they know what they're doing & aren't taking us for a ride.
> 
> Bernamej didn't say that Mark Iter isn't a composer. S/he just used Glenn Gould as an example of how important it is to know how to write a fugue. It's important enough that people who weren't considered composers still took the time to study them.


Exactly !


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## 4chamberedklavier (12 mo ago)

classicalmusicfinder said:


> When you say "taking us for a ride", do you mean making us think bad music is actually good? Oh boy. If you have to look at a composers track record to essentially determine your own opinion on if the music is "good" or not, and can't do that by, I don't know, listening to it, than this is also concerning. It is music. Its music. As for it being called "modern", I don't know if you are referring to a specific style or just the fact that this is clearly made in modern times, but I wasn't the one who called it that, and it says nowhere what style it is. So Mark Iter isn't claiming the term "modern" to uh "escape criticism". It is again, music. It doesn't have to fit a mold. Oftentimes the best pieces don't. Instead of saying "this is bad because it isn't a fugue, or a sonata, or made 140 years ago" or any amount of nonsense, I just listened to the music and thought "wow, this is special". Imagine that
> 
> Music is of course subjective, but there are still ways to measure it. The depth of the music, tonal maturity, etc. You guys are measuring music in truly one of the worst, most empty ways possible. Definitely disappointing. I like the music, you don't have to, but please have a point to make against it that is actually relevant to the music itself. Not the year it came out or the fact this composer didn't write a fugue, whatever.


If you're saying that we should ideally evaluate a musical work based on its own merits, I agree, but it's hard to blame people for wanting some sort of quality assurance before they take the time to listen. 



classicalmusicfinder said:


> It doesn't have to fit a mold. Oftentimes the best pieces don't. Instead of saying "this is bad because it isn't a fugue, or a sonata, or made 140 years ago" or any amount of nonsense, I just listened to the music and thought "wow, this is special".


Being able to write a fugue was just used as an example of how we're assured the composer has a solid grasp of music theory. Nobody said the piece should _sound_ like a fugue.


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## classicalmusicfinder (9 mo ago)

4chamberedklavier said:


> If you're saying that we should ideally evaluate a musical work based on its own merits, I agree, but it's hard to blame people for wanting some sort of quality assurance before they take the time to listen.
> 
> 
> 
> Being able to write a fugue was just used as an example of how we're assured the composer has a solid grasp of music theory. Nobody said the piece should _sound_ like a fugue.



You make good points, but I still have to disagree. I think it is absolutely crucial to give new music a chance, even if you don't have "quality assurance". Honestly, a lot of composers who have the sense to do their own thing end up producing some of the most incredible music. It also seems bad to structure what types of music anybody should write to pass some sort of test; that couldn't be further from the purpose of art. There is this weird sort of cold, removed, sciencey attitude in some classical music communities that really misses the whole point. Great artists usually have priorities outside of earning their stripes and going through what a community of listeners deem as rite of passage, so to speak.

I can't stress enough that listening to a piece and forming your own opinions from that process is what matters. I NEVER would have the appreciation that I do for Bach, Beethoven, or Mark Iter for that matter if I didn't evaluate things truthfully, objectively, deeply, and for myself. And you certainly shouldn't criticize something because it doesn't fit a mold. If anything, that can tell me a composer is onto something very original. You don't tell a modern painter to first create a traditional landscape. They would probably storm out of the room. You look at the art and determine its value to you. Within seconds of hearing the pieces I found, I could tell something. There have been times when I give music a chance and dislike it, which is quite often, but I don't feel like I lost some kind of time investment. My time isn't that valuable. I gave a piece of classical music a try, and now I can scratch that off.

Curiously, it is also intriguing that people say "prove yourself by writing something basic" when what is first presented, is incredibly complex to begin with. I'll use these pieces to make my point: I sent the Mark Iter stuff to a family friend who teaches piano, as i was hoping to get musical insight into why they are special. They essentially emailed that anyone familiar with playing piano or music theory can see the rich complexity in these pieces. Granted, it is one person's opinion, though they did attend Eastman. 😄

Side note: the original person who made that point against the music seemingly did listen to some of the music. They didn't like the fact that it wasn't traditional and disregarded it. I never heard a negative point that had to do with the quality of the music itself. It seems like a couple people are essentially saying "we can't tell if it is good, did the composer write a fugue?" So what if they did, the music could still be garbage! Though, that person's comments have also just been removed on some other forums and they don't have great track record so its possible they were just trying to be unpleasant.

But thanks for your thoughts, I think a lot of people would agree with you. I am curious what you think of the Mark Iter album. Do you have a favorite/least favorite piece?


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## 4chamberedklavier (12 mo ago)

classicalmusicfinder said:


> But thanks for your thoughts, I think a lot of people would agree with you. I am curious what you think of the Mark Iter album. Do you have a favorite/least favorite piece?


Thanks, your earnest attempt to discuss makes me less suspicious that you & Mark Iter are the same.

I've listened to the 30-second Spotify samples of the tracks. They're pleasant-sounding, but they all seem similar to one another (not necessarily a bad thing). Of course I'd have to listen to the whole thing before I can make a fair judgement. I'm not a good judge of music since I often come to like many of the things I didn't care for initially. Whether or not it's MIDI, I don't mind.


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## classicalmusicfinder (9 mo ago)

4chamberedklavier said:


> Thanks, your earnest attempt to discuss makes me less suspicious that you & Mark Iter are the same.
> 
> I've listened to the 30-second Spotify samples of the tracks. They're pleasant-sounding, but they all seem similar to one another (not necessarily a bad thing). Of course I'd have to listen to the whole thing before I can make a fair judgement. I'm not a good judge of music since I often come to like many of the things I didn't care for initially. Whether or not it's MIDI, I don't mind.


Yeah I was thinking the same thing. The actual quality of the sound of the instrument is exactly the same in each. Except for the last. Some of the pieces really have nothing in common tonally, at least that I can decipher, yet they still feel connected. If you do want to listen to the full thing and have a discussion, some people on this forum found the album on Youtube Music, which I guess is just youtube? Obviously its on Spotify too. Might be elsewhere.

To be fair, I figure if I did write music, I would just say "hey guys, here is my stuff" knowing myself. However, I took flute lessons as a child and that is fully it. I appreciate and love classical music from afar.


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## NoCoPilot (Nov 9, 2020)

I have the same problem with Sorabji. His stuff is so "out there," so outside the realm of standard practice, that I have very few landmarks to orient myself. Could he write a fugue? I honestly don't care. But if he's writing something without any tethers to classical music tradition, he'll need to provide some footholds.


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## NoCoPilot (Nov 9, 2020)

4chamberedklavier said:


> Bernamej didn't say that Mark Iter isn't a composer. S/he just used Glenn Gould as an example of how important it is to know how to write a fugue.


Glenn Gould, or Morton?


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## NoCoPilot (Nov 9, 2020)

Some of "Iter's" other stuff on YouTube is not MIDI piano, although it still sounds like digital instruments to me. It's not half bad... but nothing I'd buy either.
[video]


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## pianozach (May 21, 2018)

I still don't "do" Spotify, but I found the Mark Iter "A Series of Compositions" on Youtube, posted on 13 April 2022.

Here's the first two, which I more or less skimmed through.











Frankly, these sound like improvisations, recorded and posted, but not really "compositions". I doubt that "Mark Iter" (or is it "Marketer"?) could actually play the compositions again without significant alterations.

I'm not really an afficionado of post-modern and experimental and random music . . . I'm extremely picky with that (those?) genre (genres?) of musical "styles"

So, these are just "OK" to my ears. It doesn't suck, but it wanders aimlessly. I could pump out these sorts of things without much trouble. Especially an improv-y piano "composition" like this. Perhaps the nicest thing about it is the lack of consistent time signatures - I actually LIKE that.

Here's a one movement piece I whipped out in an evening for flute, clarinet, bassoon, cello, and piano (and realized on virtual instruments). I was in a snarky mood after hearing a piece in a review five pieces thread here, and thought I could sketch out a similar piece, quickly make some recordings based on my outline, and upload it to Soundcloud. 

I called it "Unexpectorate for Five Players, for flute, clarinet, bassoon, cello, and piano".

Tell me if how it compares to Marketer's pieces

Here's the link to my four minute art movement:


__
https://soundcloud.com/pianozach%2Funexpectorate-for-five-players-for-flute-clarinet-bassoon-cello-and-piano


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## NoCoPilot (Nov 9, 2020)

pianozach said:


> Here's a one movement piece I whipped out in an evening. I called it "Unexpectorate for Five Players, for flute, clarinet, bassoon, cello, and piano". Tell me if how it compares to Marketer's pieces.


I have the same reaction as I did to Zappa's Synclavier work: there is no expression, no variation in dynamics, no "human feel." For _*some* _reason most people who play with MIDI completely ignore MIDI's expression capabilities, and simply assemble a bunch of identical velocity & duration note events. It make for a tinkertoy composition that has no "feel."

What, by the way, is "unspit"?


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## NoCoPilot (Nov 9, 2020)

With a bit of work, it _is_ possible to impart some measure of expression to MIDI tracks:

__
https://soundcloud.com/anode-1%2Fanode-bethena


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Sounds like a very limited composer. No real change in expression from piece to piece, no noticeable development within a piece. Lots of repetition, seemingly out of an inability to move on. I doubt he's ever studied music.


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## pianozach (May 21, 2018)

NoCoPilot said:


> I have the same reaction as I did to Zappa's Synclavier work: there is no expression, no variation in dynamics, no "human feel." For _*some* _reason most people who play with MIDI completely ignore MIDI's expression capabilities, and simply assemble a bunch of identical velocity & duration note events. It make for a tinkertoy composition that has no "feel."
> 
> What, by the way, is "unspit"?


Actually, that's an excellent criticism. I _*did*_ almost completely ignore dynamics (there are _some_), as I was focused on all the different ways in which I could reuse, reassign, and rehash the main motif, as well as utilizing the different combinations of sounds. I was also imitating, to an extent, the track I was parodying, which was also lacking in "expression". I think it was a thread that Art Rock had started, a "monthly review" of several pieces at a time. 

I suppose I could go back and put in some dynamics, but I don't really think it will help that much: It was more of a compositional exercise.

Oh, and the "_*Unexpectorate*_" was part of that implied snarkiness, inferring a situation where you have a mouthful of spit, but since it's a chamber piece, you cannot spit it out; you must, instead, swallow it.


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## classicalmusicfinder (9 mo ago)

NoCoPilot said:


> Some of "Iter's" other stuff on YouTube is not MIDI piano, although it still sounds like digital instruments to me. It's not half bad... but nothing I'd buy either.
> [video]


This caught me off guard at first, I thought it was a joke or something. This music must have been posted very recently, I’ve never seen this and I’ve had the Spotify page open in a tab 24/7 haha. 

I quite like it. Although, it couldn’t be more different than the piano pieces. Also, the first movement doesn’t sound like MIDI to me


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## classicalmusicfinder (9 mo ago)

pianozach said:


> I still don't "do" Spotify, but I found the Mark Iter "A Series of Compositions" on Youtube, posted on 13 April 2022.
> 
> Here's the first two, which I more or less skimmed through.
> 
> ...


Oh yeah, that GN piece sounds fairly “aimless” and floating, I don’t dislike that though. What’s funny is, everybody is saying that there is no change in tone from piece to piece. I don’t think this could be further from the truth. It seems like if somebody liked the first few, they might hate GN or the last one BV


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## classicalmusicfinder (9 mo ago)

NoCoPilot said:


> I have the same problem with Sorabji. His stuff is so "out there," so outside the realm of standard practice, that I have very few landmarks to orient myself. Could he write a fugue? I honestly don't care. But if he's writing something without any tethers to classical music tradition, he'll need to provide some footholds.


I bet Sorabji would be popular outside of classical audiences, just musically and objectively. But it’s 2022 so it goes from those who like classical classical to rap.


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## classicalmusicfinder (9 mo ago)

pianozach said:


> I still don't "do" Spotify, but I found the Mark Iter "A Series of Compositions" on Youtube, posted on 13 April 2022.
> 
> Here's the first two, which I more or less skimmed through.
> 
> ...


I think it’s worth noting that “60”, “42”, “74”, “bld”, etc don’t sound improvised at all. They are complex but actually pretty locked in.

also it could totally just be me, but I really don’t hear any similarities from Iter to the reproduction you made.


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## classicalmusicfinder (9 mo ago)

Woodduck said:


> Sounds like a very limited composer. No real change in expression from piece to piece, no noticeable development within a piece. Lots of repetition, seemingly out of an inability to move on. I doubt he's ever studied music.


I actually disagree with literally everything here, not that they aren’t good points. I hear clear and rich development in most pieces through the album, and GN is obviously extremely repetitive intentionally but outside of that you’ve lost me. Interesting that two opinions on this same music can be exact opposites


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## pianozach (May 21, 2018)

classicalmusicfinder said:


> I think it’s worth noting that “60”, “42”, “74”, “bld”, etc don’t sound improvised at all. They are complex but actually pretty locked in.
> 
> also it could totally just be me, but I really don’t hear any similarities from Iter to the reproduction you made.


Similar only in terms of time spent composing it, I think. The Iter tracks seem rather . . . improvised. Composer likely had a few "ideas" and simply went "stream of thought". We had a composer on here a while back, that would compose a symphony every day, although they were certainly simply improvisations. THAT "composer" didn't understand the genre in which he believed he was composing, and through some discussion, evidently had no motivation to learn anything about composing, as he believed it could stifle his creativity.

My "Expectorate" was composed for five "voices", and had a motif, and a sub-motif, and a certain amount of structure, but its 'composition' was improvised over the formatting and structure. Similar concept as the Iter improvs in terms of having patterns that were reused. 

No, I could likely create some improvised piano solo that sounds similar to Iter, but haven't. 

I used to do a "bit" when performing where I'd improvise ("compose") some Andrew Lloyd Webber, which was a crowd pleaser. Webber has "things" he relies on in his songs, such as parallel block triads, with occasional 6ths, suspensions, maj7ths, and +2s. Webber was also big on arpeggiating the measure-long chords. I'm not a fan of Webber, but I'll certainly give him massive credit for being able to write lovely melodies that you can actually HUM as you leave the theater. That's his strength, actually . . . he keeps it simple and pretty so the pretentious elite theatre-goers can pretend its Classical music. He CAN write complex music, but generally DOESN'T, because that's NOT where the money is.


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## TwoFlutesOneTrumpet (Aug 31, 2011)

classicalmusicfinder said:


> I actually disagree with literally everything here, not that they aren’t good points. I hear clear and rich development in most pieces through the album, and GN is obviously extremely repetitive intentionally but outside of that you’ve lost me. Interesting that two opinions on this same music can be exact opposites


Curious, what development of musical ideas do you hear? Can you point out specific passages? I, like Woodduck, don't see any and find this music utterly dull.


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## classicalmusicfinder (9 mo ago)

TwoFlutesOneTrumpet said:


> Curious, what development of musical ideas do you hear? Can you point out specific passages? I, like Woodduck, don't see any and find this music utterly dull.


I would say listen to the entirety of 60 if you can. 42 as well. Both have pretty clear stories to me when I listen to them. It just might be a difference experience too. R develops in an intriguing way as well. I almost regret posting the previews because I think people are gauging the music off of the random Spotify 30 second bits.


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## classicalmusicfinder (9 mo ago)

pianozach said:


> Similar only in terms of time spent composing it, I think. The Iter tracks seem rather . . . improvised. Composer likely had a few "ideas" and simply went "stream of thought". We had a composer on here a while back, that would compose a symphony every day, although they were certainly simply improvisations. THAT "composer" didn't understand the genre in which he believed he was composing, and through some discussion, evidently had no motivation to learn anything about composing, as he believed it could stifle his creativity.
> 
> My "Expectorate" was composed for five "voices", and had a motif, and a sub-motif, and a certain amount of structure, but its 'composition' was improvised over the formatting and structure. Similar concept as the Iter improvs in terms of having patterns that were reused.
> 
> ...


Well put. I remember reading something a while back where a somewhat known composer in Europe was differentiating between “stream of consciousness” and “improvisation”. He was basically saying that to improvise has this connotation like the notes are randomly generated, but that some historians think Moonlight Sonata and others may have been “improvised”. When I listen to the Iter stuff, (which by the way, I googled the name and it’s pronounced EATER, if that dispels anybody saying it’s a marketer scheme or something), I hear a clear story. Just because something is coming out as it is played, or I suppose written in one go, doesn't mean it isn't coherent. However, the Iter stuff also can sound like a stream of consciousness at the same time. It may be at that, but I wouldn’t call it “improv” so to speak. I also could be completely wrong, it may have been written to sound the way it does. 

Nonetheless, I cannot hear 60 as being improv. Way too complex. I don't know much about piano but going off of the response I got from the piano teacher I mentioned and just how it seems to me, these Iter pieces seem damn hard. SO much going on; like throughout 74. Honestly, the only one that seems doable to me would be Dream of Truth, but that one seems super intentional and probably written.


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## classicalmusicfinder (9 mo ago)

You know what - it is actually funny that Beethoven's Moonlight Sonata movement 1 has been brought into this. Both that, and the Iter pieces like 60, 42, 74, bld, etc., are methodically and thoughtfully paced, repetitive, and take advantage of soft but crescendoing bits. The Iter pieces also take advantage of full on silent spaces though. 60 and Moonlight Sonata are very different pieces, but the comparison is not insignificant. Couldn't you see someone finding wonderful, now famous pieces of the past "dull?" Of course, Beethoven is established as one of the greatest of all time; I don't think anybody here will call his Sonata no.14 dull. Fun fact, the original title was "Sonata quasi una fantasia per il clavicembalo". It was deemed "Moonlight Sonata" after his passing.


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## TwoFlutesOneTrumpet (Aug 31, 2011)

classicalmusicfinder said:


> I would say listen to the entirety of 60 if you can. 42 as well. Both have pretty clear stories to me when I listen to them. It just might be a difference experience too. R develops in an intriguing way as well. I almost regret posting the previews because I think people are gauging the music off of the random Spotify 30 second bits.


Sorry, don't hear any interesting, cogent musical stories in either piece.


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## classicalmusicfinder (9 mo ago)

TwoFlutesOneTrumpet said:


> Sorry, don't hear any interesting, cogent musical stories in either piece.


haha really? Wait you don’t hear any, or any interesting ones? Different tastes I suppose? Actually you might like 90 more. 97? New?

I mean, it’s also kind of odd to say you hear no musical story lol. The pieces on this album of course have a feel and story. Most all music does, if not downright all. I think it’s the depth of the story that ranges and comes down to taste.

Are people being weirdly negative about this music for a specific reason? I’ve heard a lot of music with classical instrumentation, and there are some on this album that are neat but not exactly my taste, but there are also a handful on here that are some of the best pieces of music I’ve ever heard. There are a lot of strange, sweeping statements being made against this music and the creator that just generally are untrue in every scenario, for any actual music. I guess it is the internet. Oh well, not the way I’d respond to music I actually just didn’t care for. Also just not the nature of music. Weird! Weird people! 😄


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## TwoFlutesOneTrumpet (Aug 31, 2011)

classicalmusicfinder said:


> haha really? Wait you don’t hear any, or any interesting ones? Different tastes I suppose? Actually you might like 90 more. 97? New?
> 
> I mean, it’s also kind of odd to say you hear no musical story lol. The pieces on this album of course have a feel and story. Most all music does, if not downright all. I think it’s the depth of the story that ranges and comes down to taste.
> 
> Are people being weirdly negative about this music for a specific reason? I’ve heard a lot of music with classical instrumentation, and there are some on this album that are neat but not exactly my taste, but there are also a handful on here that are some of the best pieces of music I’ve ever heard. There are a lot of strange, sweeping statements being made against this music and the creator that just generally are untrue in every scenario, for any actual music. I guess it is the internet. Oh well, not the way I’d respond to music I actually just didn’t care for. Also just not the nature of music. Weird! Weird people! 😄


Do you prefer I lied about it?


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## classicalmusicfinder (9 mo ago)

TwoFlutesOneTrumpet said:


> Do you prefer I lied about it?


Not the point, so, no


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## mikeh375 (Sep 7, 2017)

4chamberedklavier said:


> Also, It's far too easy to create poorly made music then pass it off as "modern" to escape from criticism. It's not pretentious to expect composers to at least be competent in the basics (like fugue-writing) if we intend to listen to their modernist-style pieces, just so there's some assurance that they know what they're doing & aren't taking us for a ride.
> 
> Bernamej didn't say that Mark Iter isn't a composer. S/he just used Glenn Gould as an example of how important it is to know how to write a fugue. It's important enough that people who weren't considered composers still took the time to study them.


I have mixed feelings on this 4CK. On the one hand I get it so far as a listener might be concerned because getting to know a modern work, even if they are enthusiastic, can take time. If a listener is up for putting in the effort, then some reassuring provenance about the composer might be useful given the bewliderment and mistrust one can encounter when not used to a seemingly free ranging imagination. As a composer myself who went through the academic mill (yes I can write a fugue, as can a few others here on TC), I believe that learning common practice technique is of immense value for artistic and musical development early on, giving as it does, a solid base on which to explore and build upon. However there is an alternative approach to composing that one has to consider equally valid imv.

Modernity requires a new aesthetic and technical approach that actually does not need the old ways. In fact it's possible that the old ways could be damaging to an up and coming young and modern leaning mind. Besides, there is so much in the way of more bespoke technique geared to expression in a post tonal/atonal idiom that occupies the formative years to render CP study less important, less relevant. In other words, there is no need to master counterpoint to Bach's level, rather a passing acquaintance with the technique is enough. Mastery in technique that allows expression in a contemporary way is more pertinent and desirable. Remember too that the 'past' canon for a young art/concert music composer today is so far removed from the CP era as to be irrelevant aesthetically speaking.

Re the OP's music posting, it sounds to me me like samples via midi from a DAW. As for the music, there is some invention (an overlooked, yet very important aspect of composing), but to my ears, the music is simply that, with no real substance for my tastes, of course ymmv and my opinion is just that. My jaded attitude to this kind of 'writing' comes from my time in media composing. I've heard non-trained composers write like this over my years in media and some are excellent, instinctual composers who manage to overcome any technical limitations with a natural feel. The OP's posting has its place of course and is a totally valid expression, but one can't help wondering if the composer has enough knowledge to fully realise what he is capable of, does he have enough craft to underpin a deeper introspection...or does he care either way? Raw talent that isn't honed always feels like such a waste to me.


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## classicalmusicfinder (9 mo ago)

mikeh375 said:


> I have mixed feelings on this 4CK. On the one hand I get it so far as a listener might be concerned because getting to know a modern work, even if they are enthusiastic, can take time. If a listener is up for putting in the effort, then some reassuring provenance about the composer might be useful given the bewliderment and mistrust one can encounter when not used to a seemingly free ranging imagination. As a composer myself who went through the academic mill (yes I can write a fugue, as can a few others here on TC), I believe that learning common practice technique is of immense value for artistic and musical development early on, giving as it does, a solid base on which to explore and build upon. However there is an alternative approach to composing that one has to consider equally valid imv.
> 
> Modernity requires a new aesthetic and technical approach that actually does not need the old ways. In fact it's possible that the old ways could be damaging to an up and coming young and modern leaning mind. Besides, there is so much in the way of more bespoke technique geared to expression in a post tonal/atonal idiom that occupies the formative years to render CP study less important, less relevant. In other words, there is no need to master counterpoint to Bach's level, rather a passing acquaintance with the technique is enough. Mastery in technique that allows expression in a contemporary way is more pertinent and desirable. Remember too that the 'past' canon for a young art/concert music composer today is so far removed from the CP era as to be irrelevant aesthetically speaking.
> 
> Re the OP's music posting, it sounds to me me like samples via midi from a DAW. As for the music, there is some invention (an overlooked, yet very important aspect of composing), but to my ears, the music is simply that, with no real substance for my tastes, of course ymmv and my opinion is just that. My jaded attitude to this kind of 'writing' comes from my time in media composing. I've heard non-trained composers write like this over my years in media and some are excellent, instinctual composers who manage to overcome any technical limitations with a natural feel. The OP's posting has its place of course and is a totally valid expression, but one can't help wondering if the composer has enough knowledge to fully realise what he is capable of, does he have enough craft to underpin a deeper introspection...or does he care either way? Raw talent that isn't honed always feels like such a waste to me.


Well said. What exactly do you mean by invention vs other substance? I think I get what you are saying but would love an elaboration. For the record, none of us really know if this composer is untrained or trained, etc.

I'm also curious about exact pieces that demonstrate a style that feels untrained. I have a hard time because, certain pieces such as 42, sound trained to me. 74 too, side note: I cannot imagine what the hands of a pianist would look like while playing that number. Others don't sound like a trained writer as blatantly. The new violin stuff that NoCoPilot found, also sounds trained to my ears. Does 42 or Movement 1 from the new stuff sound like only an invention, as you put it? Also, what piece is the epitome of what you are saying? Genuinely interested in the perspective of a composer here.



Also, as a somewhat unrelated note, music can be gauged separately from the composer. Meaning, even if the composer "can't be trusted", the music can still have value. Great art and advances come by accident all the time. Some great music has come from a joke, or from a one-time composer hearing a car horn in a particular way that inspires them.


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## pianozach (May 21, 2018)

classicalmusicfinder said:


> haha really? Wait you don’t hear any, or any interesting ones? Different tastes I suppose? Actually you might like 90 more. 97? New?
> 
> I mean, it’s also kind of odd to say you hear no musical story lol. The pieces on this album of course have a feel and story. Most all music does, if not downright all. I think it’s the depth of the story that ranges and comes down to taste.
> 
> *Are people being weirdly negative about this music for a specific reason? *I’ve heard a lot of music with classical instrumentation, and there are some on this album that are neat but not exactly my taste, but there are also a handful on here that are some of the best pieces of music I’ve ever heard. There are a lot of strange, sweeping statements being made against this music and the creator that just generally are untrue in every scenario, for any actual music. I guess it is the internet. Oh well, not the way I’d respond to music I actually just didn’t care for. Also just not the nature of music. Weird! Weird people! 😄


Yes, people ARE being negative about this music for a reason.

But first, they are not being "weirdly" negative about this music, they are being justifiably negative for a reason.

I find it odd that this far into the discussion you'd be asking this question though; most everyone that is "being negative" is giving you reasons why.


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## pianozach (May 21, 2018)

mikeh375 said:


> I have mixed feelings on this 4CK. On the one hand I get it so far as a listener might be concerned because getting to know a modern work, even if they are enthusiastic, can take time. If a listener is up for putting in the effort, then some reassuring provenance about the composer might be useful given the bewliderment and mistrust one can encounter when not used to a seemingly free ranging imagination. As a composer myself who went through the academic mill (yes I can write a fugue, as can a few others here on TC), I believe that learning common practice technique is of immense value for artistic and musical development early on, giving as it does, a solid base on which to explore and build upon. However there is an alternative approach to composing that one has to consider equally valid imv.
> 
> *Modernity requires a new aesthetic and technical approach that actually does not need the old ways. In fact it's possible that the old ways could be damaging to an up and coming young and modern leaning mind.* Besides, there is so much in the way of more bespoke technique geared to expression in a post tonal/atonal idiom that occupies the formative years to render CP study less important, less relevant. In other words, there is no need to master counterpoint to Bach's level, rather a passing acquaintance with the technique is enough. Mastery in technique that allows expression in a contemporary way is more pertinent and desirable. Remember too that the 'past' canon for a young art/concert music composer today is so far removed from the CP era as to be irrelevant aesthetically speaking.
> 
> Re the OP's music posting, it sounds to me me like samples via midi from a DAW. As for the music, there is some invention (an overlooked, yet very important aspect of composing), but to my ears, the music is simply that, with no real substance for my tastes, of course ymmv and my opinion is just that. My jaded attitude to this kind of 'writing' comes from my time in media composing. I've heard non-trained composers write like this over my years in media and some are excellent, instinctual composers who manage to overcome any technical limitations with a natural feel. The OP's posting has its place of course and is a totally valid expression, but one can't help wondering if the composer has enough knowledge to fully realise what he is capable of, does he have enough craft to underpin a deeper introspection...or does he care either way? Raw talent that isn't honed always feels like such a waste to me.


. . . . And there it is. I thought that this would eventually surface.

"Knowing about composition could stifle my creativity."

BS. The more you know, the more your creativity is enhanced, because you have more tools to work with. 

I've got nothing against bringing in influences from outside the genre or field of study. Both Pop music and Classical music do this all the time, whether it's "eastern" sensibilities, electronics, randomness, double-forced-order, or converting birds on a wire into a musical staff.


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## classicalmusicfinder (9 mo ago)

pianozach said:


> Yes, people ARE being negative about this music for a reason.
> 
> But first, they are not being "weirdly" negative about this music, they are being justifiably negative for a reason.
> 
> I find it odd that this far into the discussion you'd be asking this question though; most everyone that is "being negative" is giving you reasons why.


Right, I have problems with the reasons that are being given; thats what I was expressing there. For instance, if you want to respond to this part : 


classicalmusicfinder said:


> I mean, it’s also kind of odd to say you hear no musical story lol. The pieces on this album of course have a feel and story. Most all music does, if not downright all. I think it’s the depth of the story that ranges and comes down to taste.



That is what I mean. The reasons are being influenced or are just coming out overarching and never true for any music.


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## classicalmusicfinder (9 mo ago)

pianozach said:


> . . . . And there it is. I thought that this would eventually surface.
> 
> "Knowing about composition could stifle my creativity."
> 
> ...


Look, learning about classical structure is structure that someone else made. Styles that someone else made. Through a process that someone else made. So of course this guy is onto something when he said it can stifle creativity. Music is a complicated, personal thing. That is a pretty basic point IMO


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## mikeh375 (Sep 7, 2017)

classicalmusicfinder said:


> Well said. What exactly do you mean by invention vs other substance? I think I get what you are saying but would love an elaboration. For the record, none of us really know if this composer is untrained or trained, etc.
> 
> I'm also curious about exact pieces that demonstrate a style that feels untrained. I have a hard time because, certain pieces such as 42, sound trained to me. 74 too, side note: I cannot imagine what the hands of a pianist would look like while playing that number. Others don't sound like a trained writer as blatantly. The new violin stuff that NoCoPilot found, also sounds trained to my ears. Does 42 or Movement 1 from the new stuff sound like only an invention, as you put it? Also, what piece is the epitome of what you are saying? Genuinely interested in the perspective of a composer here.
> 
> ...


Invention comes in many guises. One can take a humble minor chord and make it sound fresh, new and different as Stravinsky did in his 'Symphony of Psalms'. His spacing and orchestration was the result of an inventive and enquiring approach. Invention can come in the form of clever manipulation of an instruments capabilities and using that as a 'motor' on which to drape the rest of the compositions details. I immediately think of someone like Schumman and his clever pianistically devised 'engines' that support and drive the expression in his piano music.
Invention can fruitfully be applied in more fundamental way too, harmony for example, in the guise of synthetic scales that spawn newly derived vertical structures, modulations etc. In fact an inventive and lateral mindset can be applied to any aspect of composition and its seemless integration with the notes themselves, helping to make music inevitable, is a mark of a great composer imv. Britten for example is for me, the epitome of a superb inventive mind that could manipulate masterful musical technique - or is it the other way around? His invention and technique are so perfectly wedded that it is hard to distinguish one from the other, again a trait of many masters.

It's harder to pin down how one can 'feel' that a composer is untrained when they obviously have something beyond the mundane to say. There are obvious things like cliche and unfocused or wandering phrases. Or perhaps poor orchestration as evidenced by many DAW composers who use orchestral samples. There is often a lack of emotional impetus and musical inevitability because of a poor understanding of melodic development. Harmony too can be mundane and phrases can be too regular and repetitive - in fact all lacking invention. There is so much more in the way of negative indicators however many of these 'faults' are actually desirable in some genres so my thinking mainly applies to concert/art music offerings. Ironically though, mastering technique also helps in other styles too, it's all about how they are applied, mentally and on the manuscript.

Zach in post47 mentions the old tired and mainly internet/DAW worry about technique. I have had many conversations with composers (untrained) about this, generally in a boozer. And although I agree with Zach that technique is vital for a full potential to be reached, on one or two occasions pleas from sozzled friends have sometimes convinced me that they genuinely feel as though knowledge would deprive them of their untramelled invention, siezing their free ranging with a paralysis of doubt. The only thing against this attitude to theory/technique is that invention ( or in my friends case, clever production) on its own might not be enough, although it always keeps open the possibility of genuine and even influential innovation (as does theory of course). It is enough for many though and some of my favourite music has been written by 'untrained' composers, so there...


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## science (Oct 14, 2010)

classicalmusicfinder said:


> I came across this music, which I think is a new release. This music is extremely unique; I have never heard a person play or write piano like this, so incredibly detailed. It is deeply affecting, and speaks to the soul and mind in a very intimate way. The composer is Mark Iter. I'll link the Spotify but I'm sure you ca find it elsewhere if you want. The album I found is called "A Series of Compositions". Does anybody know this? Thank you guys


Other than Mark Iter, is there any other recent music you'd like to recommend to us?


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## classicalmusicfinder (9 mo ago)

mikeh375 said:


> Invention comes in many guises. One can take a humble minor chord and make it sound fresh, new and different as Stravinsky did in his 'Symphony of Psalms'. His spacing and orchestration was the result of an inventive and enquiring approach. Invention can come in the form of clever manipulation of an instruments capabilities and using that as a 'motor' on which to drape the rest of the compositions details. I immediately think of someone like Schumman and his clever pianistically devised 'engines' that support and drive the expression in his piano music.
> Invention can fruitfully be applied in more fundamental way too, harmony for example, in the guise of synthetic scales that spawn newly derived vertical structures, modulations etc. In fact an inventive and lateral mindset can be applied to any aspect of composition and its seemless integration with the notes themselves, helping to make music inevitable, is a mark of a great composer imv. Britten for example is for me, the epitome of a superb inventive mind that could manipulate masterful musical technique - or is it the other way around? His invention and technique are so perfectly wedded that it is hard to distinguish one from the other, again a trait of many masters.
> 
> It's harder to pin down how one can 'feel' that a composer is untrained when they obviously have something beyond the mundane to say. There are obvious things like cliche and unfocused or wandering phrases. Or perhaps poor orchestration as evidenced by many DAW composers who use orchestral samples. There is often a lack of emotional impetus and musical inevitability because of a poor understanding of melodic development. Harmony too can be mundane and phrases can be too regular and repetitive - in fact all lacking invention. There is so much more in the way of negative indicators however many of these 'faults' are actually desirable in some genres so my thinking mainly applies to concert/art music offerings. Ironically though, mastering technique also helps in other styles too, it's all about how they are applied, mentally and on the manuscript.
> ...


Thank you! Good stuff. I would love to chat more about specific pieces form the Iter albums if you are interested, and I'll be sure to check out your website.


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## classicalmusicfinder (9 mo ago)

science said:


> Other than Mark Iter, is there any other recent music you'd like to recommend to us?


Yes, thank you!


Most recently in March of 2022, Max Richter remade is own recomposed version of Vivaldi's Four Seasons, (as far as I know, only Spring 1 at this point), but with period instruments. Obviously the synth is not "period", though it is a classic, vintage synth considered to be king of all synthesizers.







Enigma: I. — · Spektral Quartet Anna Thorvaldsdottir: Enigma






Intriguing new piece: Concerto No. 3 pour piano, cordes, timbales et percussion: III. Presto






If you want soprano......
Wagner: Wesendonck Lieder, WWV 91 - 5. Träume (Orch. Wagner) · Lise Davidsen · London Philharmonic Orchestra ·

Mark Elder






Less new but still contemporary...
From 2020, DANCE: I. when you're broken open (composer Anna Clyne / with cello Inbal Segev)






Not new, but I've been listening to Fantasia on a Theme by Thomas Tallis (Vaughan Williams). _Beautiful stuff!_


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## NoCoPilot (Nov 9, 2020)

There is ALWAYS room for unschooled innovative composers who are breaking all the rules and pushing all the boundaries. Otherwise we'd all be listening to the same Medieval plainchant.

But that doesn't mean every experiment works, or every rule violation results in some kind of progress.

Some of Max Richter's stuff has been wonderful -- his "Blue Notebooks" or "Songs From Before" for instance. But his reimagining of Vivaldi adds nothing to it as far as I can determine, makes no new discoveries. It just muddies up a beautiful piece for, what, shock value? Philip Glass and Steve Reich have done the same schtick better.

Similarly, Mark Iter does not make me think "he's onto something." The music, as someone already mentioned, feels improvised in that there is no over-arching structure and no sense of development. It feels like a dead end to me, an afternoon in front of a DAW.

As with all subjective matters, YMMV.


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## classicalmusicfinder (9 mo ago)

NoCoPilot said:


> There is ALWAYS room for unschooled innovative composers who are breaking all the rules and pushing all the boundaries. Otherwise we'd all be listening to the same Medieval plainchant.
> 
> But that doesn't mean every experiment works, or every rule violation results in some kind of progress.
> 
> ...


Different tastes no doubt. I love the recomposed pieces, and prefer that music to the original Vivaldi. There is much more life, rich depth, and insight to the recomposed ones for me. Of course, if you were used to the originals and that style, then you’d probably feel the way you do. Comparable to Iter; it’s new, and if you are used to that, than it doesn’t strike any chord. I think one of the things I honestly pride myself most on as someone with a massive classical music collection, is my ability to keep an open mind. It has exposed me to the genius of an enormous variety of work.


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## NoCoPilot (Nov 9, 2020)

classicalmusicfinder said:


> There is much more life, rich depth, and insight to the recomposed ones for me.


You seem to have the ability to find depth and meaning in music that the rest of us see as meaningless and shallow. I applaud your creativity.


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## classicalmusicfinder (9 mo ago)

NoCoPilot said:


> You seem to have the ability to find depth and meaning in music that the rest of us see as meaningless and shallow. I applaud your creativity.


If that was sarcastic, I'll quote you back to you.



NoCoPilot said:


> As with all subjective matters, YMMV.



One piece alone from the recomposed also has over 61 million plays. So, not just me. No need to be rude!



Also, not saying you didn't, but did you actually listen to the whole Iter album? There is certainly development.


I get the sense that, while people complain that they want reassurance that the composer is strong before dedicating 20 minutes to listening to an album, *they have no problem making sweeping, unflinching judgments after skimming......*


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## NoCoPilot (Nov 9, 2020)

I don’t think we disagree, fundamentally. I say you find meaning where others don’t, you say you pride yourself on keeping an open mind. My comment wasn’t sarcasm, exactly... more like marveling at the incredible variety of human experience. 

By the way, 61 million views doesn’t mean squat. There are that many idiots in any small city.


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## classicalmusicfinder (9 mo ago)

NoCoPilot said:


> I don’t think we disagree, fundamentally. I say you find meaning where others don’t, you say you pride yourself on keeping an open mind. My comment wasn’t sarcasm, exactly... more like marveling at the incredible variety of human experience.
> 
> By the way, 61 million views doesn’t mean squat. There are that many idiots in any small city.


I see. Well, it means that a lot of people love it. I was just saying 61 million because you were essentially saying the rest of people find the music shallow and meaningless. I'm going to repost the second part, its not even for you, I think it just applies to everything.


*they have no problem making sweeping, unflinching judgments after skimming......*


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## mikeh375 (Sep 7, 2017)

classicalmusicfinder said:


> ............ I think one of the things I honestly pride myself most on as someone with a massive classical music collection, is my ability to keep an open mind. It has exposed me to the genius of an enormous variety of work.
> 
> ............*they have no problem making sweeping, unflinching judgments after skimming......
> 
> .....*_.I would love to chat more about specific pieces form the Iter albums if you are interested, and I'll be sure to check out your website.........._


Having an open mind is the best way to approach new music imo. I too have an open mind but unfortunately for me and many pros, listening to music that can be easily replicated almost without thought is not going to hold our attention for long.

This is how I feel about the Iter playlist. As I write I'm listening to it again on Spotify (no skimming), and am still convinced, nay certain that fwiw or even matters, there is no _total_ mastery of compositional technique here. Some of the ostinatos are totally unoriginal and even for cliche, very tired sounding thanks to their exhaustive employment in media. Any semblance of pianism - purposeful idiomatic writing - is at a bare lh, rh minimum ( I think I heard some overdubbs too making some of the music 3 handed). The minimilism is well suited to media/popular music though, where immediate comprehension by client and/or audience is of prime importance. In this regard, as music with popular appeal and in a certain genre, the tracks work reasonably well imv.

Me and many colleagues would be expected to come up with reams of the type of music used in these tracks quite quickly in a media/deadline setting and being able to write like this well and easily, amounts to a devaluation of the music as regards any artistic profundity of utterance (not that that necessarily matters to those who like it and who may feel differently about its worth).

Still, all said, I believe the music to be sincere, valid as a personal expression and yes on second hearing, I can still hear a sense of adventure from the composer in places and some inventive approaches and that is a trait that is rarer than you might think in the sea of digital age composers. There is a personality showing through. Sadly though for me, the static quality of the music is a potential indication of creative limitations, unless of course the composer was purposely writing like this. That's a possibility I guess because anybody composing in media will attest that pastiche (even rip-off) and conformity are vital skills one would do well to learn, even if they do to some extent dull individuality on a daily basis.

I'm happy to chat further re some of the tracks, but I have pretty much said everything I feel about them.
As always, these are my own opinions only and yymv as it often does for us all.


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## NoCoPilot (Nov 9, 2020)

classicalmusicfinder said:


> Well, it means that a lot of people love it. I was just saying 61 million because you were essentially saying the rest of people find the music shallow and meaningless.


Don't conflate Max Richter (61 million views) with Mark Iter (last I looked, 3 views). Richter is one of the hot new stars of contempo-classical. And not to pick nits, but the "official" video of the Vivaldi piece has 1,277,960 views (not 61 million) and the unofficial vids have 20,000, 20,000 and 200,000.


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## classicalmusicfinder (9 mo ago)

mikeh375 said:


> Having an open mind is the best way to approach new music imo. I too have an open mind but unfortunately for me and many pros, listening to music that can be easily replicated almost without thought is not going to hold our attention for long.
> 
> This is how I feel about the Iter playlist. As I write I'm listening to it again on Spotify (no skimming), and am still convinced, nay certain that fwiw or even matters, there is no _total_ mastery of compositional technique here. Some of the ostinatos are totally unoriginal and even for cliche, very tired sounding thanks to their exhaustive employment in media. Any semblance of pianism - purposeful idiomatic writing - is at a bare lh, rh minimum ( I think I heard some overdubbs too making some of the music 3 handed). The minimilism is well suited to media/popular music though, where immediate comprehension by client and/or audience is of prime importance. In this regard, as music with popular appeal and in a certain genre, the tracks work reasonably well imv.
> 
> ...


Again, well said. Here are a couple of my thoughts:

Even though bias and a closed mind are attempted to be escaped in your writing, mostly pretty successfully, I still have a few problems. I think the idea of something being “cliche” is meaningless here. Cliche is really just something common. If a piece is completely unoriginal, than yeah, I would call it cliche. But the tone in the Iter pieces to me, are subtle and run very deep simultaneously, and are very unique. So when I hear bits that are “common”, I do not get the sense that these parts are coming from a cheap or shallow place. They are just inventions, thank you, that the composer used. I don’t care if I’ve also heard them elsewhere, they work here for me.


I think you hit one nail pretty head on, which is that this music is the opposite of artist devaluation if it connects with someone. And if this music were to connect, I think it would be for fairly rich reasons. That’s the way it connected with me. In reference to you mentioning reams of this stuff, typical sound, easily and immediately digestible, I have a hard time. On one hand, yeah, some of it is quite direct- though I don’t see this as bad in the slightest. On the other though, I find the tone to be hard to understand in some pieces, but once you do, it’s quite clear and powerful. Bld almost comes across like a new take on a classic death march, 97 seems like it could be popular even here, and the intricate, fast notes in sections of 74 etc. seem special to me.

I have a feeling that a big part of this, at least for others that I have spoken too earlier here, is that this is new, different music. Music can be deeply affected by one’s perspective since it is art, and I think many here went into it hearing it in a negative light. Hearing a lack of depth where there was rather a specific tone, hearing randomness when there was a complex idea, hearing cliche when a passage was universal. This especially could apply, since the Iter pieces are first and foremost, “subtle”. You either get it or you don’t. of course, combine this with being used to more traditional music, (something that is in many regards, MORE direct and obvious), and a focus on traditional technical skills, and that certainly adds to it.

As for mikeh375, I’m curious how the movement 1-3 album meets you…..
Thank you for another great contribution


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## classicalmusicfinder (9 mo ago)

NoCoPilot said:


> Don't conflate Max Richter (61 million views) with Mark Iter (last I looked, 3 views). Richter is one of the hot new stars of contempo-classical. And not to pick nits, but the "official" video of the Vivaldi piece has 1,277,960 views (not 61 million) and the unofficial vids have 20,000, 20,000 and 200,000.


The max richter conversation was uh, separate. I was asked to recommend other music. Scroll up…. And 61 million is his Spotify version of Spring 1. But also, Max Richter has been around for a while and scores films. Maybe Iter will have 990 trillion views one day and I can say I was the first fan. 

but also I’m happy to compare richter and Iter if you want... ready?


Both are great composers / Both are contemporary, modern, and new / Both can play the piano / Both made beautiful music, hated by you.


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## 2SR (9 mo ago)

Red Terror said:


> Not impressed.


cool


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

As the OP was banned and there is not much more to discuss, let's keep this closed.


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