# Beethoven



## Johnny (Mar 7, 2010)

I know there's already a fav Beethoven Symphony thread. Hopefully this will be sufficiently different to justify itself. 

A thread for a discussion of all things Beethoven. What are your favourite pieces? Favourite versions of pieces? Least favourite pieces? Least favourite versions of pieces? How do you rate him compared to the other composers? Post video links and amazon links! And would also appreciate recommendations towards any books about the man. Reliable books (ones that are more concerned with what the evidence actually says, rather than traditional anecdote/legend). People should also feel free to just marvel at how somebody created the stuff he did. How anybody could do that. Let alone a deaf man.


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## Air (Jul 19, 2008)

*What are your favourite pieces?*

Six is the best I can do, cleverly divided into categories.

Solo work: _Piano Sonata No. 32, Opus 111_, though all of the Sonatas are sublime
It's Richter (in Leipzig) here, followed closely by Arrau. Actually, everyone but Michelangeli (Great first movement, terrible second) and Kempff is fine.

Symphony: _Nos. 3 & 9._
I won't venture to give too many opinions here. Klemperer for the 3rd is _fantastique_ (The link is to just _one_ of his magnificent performances). For the 9th - Karajan '63, Gardiner, Furtwangler.

Chamber Work: _String Quartet No. 14, Opus 131_, among other stiff competition
Quartetto Italiano does well in this repertoire. Alban Berg Quartet is good for a different type of approach.

Concerto: _No. 3_, for Piano and Orchestra
Annie Fischer / Fricsay and Rudolf Serkin / Bernstein are the best I've heard. Michelangeli's approach with this work has also enamored me as of late. (Extremely unique)

Choral: _Missa Solemnis, Opus 123_
I have only heard Klemperer here, a worthy recording by any standard.

Opera: You asked the wrong person, though I'll be getting to _Fidelio_ some day (once I'm pass my Mozart stage)...

*Favourite versions of pieces?*

What is written above, more or less.

*Least favourite pieces?* 
*Least favourite versions of pieces?*

Why must we indulge on the negative? I pass.

*How do you rate him compared to the other composers?*

A great composer, but IMHO not the greatest (Bach). A lot of his works are quite well-known and hearing them over and over again can eventually be a bit tedious. Eventually one gets to the point where they realize that his symphonies aren't _the greatest thing out there, period_. I find that (many) of his works are a bit overrated in relation to the oeuvre of many other great composers. Oh well, he's good. Listen to him and enjoy what you hear.

Johnny, I suggest you buy the Karajan '63 cycle for yourself as well as a pair of good headphones. Orgasm is reached best at full blast.

Good night.


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## Johnny (Mar 7, 2010)

Won't deafness also (ironically?) be achieved at full blast though?

Thanks for the detailed reply. I do think it may be almost as useful though to point out recordings to stay away from as it is to point out ones to search for. For example, the version of the sixth symphony I got last week (one of the Naxos cds) was pretty awful IMO.


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## starry (Jun 2, 2009)

I like Toscanini BBC Symphony Orchestra for the 6th, it's on youtube. It was recorded a long time ago though (the 30s I think), so if you want pristine sound quality you won't get it there.

Beethoven's last public performances were 1814/15 or so, so that's when the deafness became a very serious handicap. By 1817-19 he had lost at least most of what he could hear. This period from 1814 to 1817 or thereabouts was the time when he didn't compose so much music.

His single most important achievement might be the series of piano sonatas he did over his life. His weakest area is generally thought to be vocal music.


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## jhar26 (Jul 6, 2008)

Johnny said:


> What are your favourite pieces? Favourite versions of pieces?


For the symphonies: Otto Klemperer for No.3, Carlos Kleiber for Nos.5 & 7, Karl Bohm for No.6 and Wilhelm Furtwangler for No.9. For a complete cycle of the symphonies I'd give the nod to Herbert von Karajan. He recorded the Beethoven symphonies four times. The 1963 cycle is generally considered to be the best. If you would like to have a second complete cycle go for Klemperer since his recordings are bound to be both great and very different from whatever other versions you may have bought before.

For the opera "Fidelio": Wilhelm Furtwangler with (singers) Martha Modl and Wolfgang Windgassen.

For the violin concerto: Jascha Heifetz (violin)/Charles Munch (conductor). I also love the Anne Sophie Mutter/Karajan recording.

For the complete (five) piano concertos: Leon Fleisher (piano)/George Szell (conductor) or Daniel Barenboim/Otto Klemperer. I also love Martha Argerich & Claudio Abbado in Nos.2 & 3.

The two most popular violin sonatas are Nos.5 & 9. Go for Itzhak Perlman (violin)/ Vladimir Ashkenazy (piano) or Gidon Kremer & Martha Argerich.

The most famous piano sonatas include the "Pathetique" (No.8 op.13), the "Moonlight Sonata" (No.14 op.29 no.2), the "Tempest" (No.31 op.31 no.2), "Waldstein" (No.21 op.53), "Les Adieux" (No.26 op.81a), "Appasionata" (No.23 op.57) and "Hammerklavier" (No.29 Op.106). There are many great recordings of these and the other Beethoven piano sonatas. Personally I'm a sucker for Emil Gilels.

For the string quartets: The Quatetto Italiano. There are no doubt other versions that are great as well, but this is the (only) set I have and I love it. Since you are a newbie to classical music and thus still have to grow into the genre I wouldn't recommend the string quartets as the area of Beethoven's music to start out with though. Avoid the late ones in particular until you've familiarized yourself with his other music. But eventually you will have to get them because they rank with his greatest achievements.


> Least favourite pieces?


I don't hate it, but I admit that the "Missa Solemnis" has never done it for me, even though it's considered one of his most important works.


> How do you rate him compared to the other composers?


Very high, obviously. The equal of Bach, Mozart and (as far as I'm concerned also) Haydn. But ranking them (and a few others) into any sort of ranking order is a matter of splitting hairs and personal preference will inevitably always play a huge part in these things.


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## Conor71 (Feb 19, 2009)

I would recommend exploring as much of Beethovens works as you can, take your time and enjoy the experience! - personally I started with the Symphonies then moved on to the Concertos, Piano Sonatas, Fidelio, String Quartets and Chamber Music .
I havent listened to a whole lot of different versions of Beethovens works - with that in mind, performances from my collection which I would recommend would be:

Herbert Von Karajan - 63' Symphony cycle










Daniel Barenboim - EMI Piano Sonata Cycle










Alban Berg Quartet - SQ Cycle










I have found Beethoven to be one of the most appealing Composers I have explored and rate his works very highly - I honestly dont think he wrote any duds, not any that I have heard anyways!.

I wish you luck on your Beethoven journey .


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## HarpsichordConcerto (Jan 1, 2010)

My oh my! You folks seem to prefer those "ancient, old" recordings of Beethoven symphonies; Karajan, Klemperer, Bernstein, Furtwangler etc. 

Time to move on with historically informed, period instruments. I have three versions, complete symphonies (plus some overtures that came with the recordings): The Academy of Ancient Music/Hogwood (I think the first complete recording on period instruments), The London Classical Players/Norrington and Anima Eterna/van Immerseel.

Check out the clip from Anima:-


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## starry (Jun 2, 2009)

jhar26 said:


> I don't hate it, but I admit that the "Missa Solemnis" has never done it for me, even though it's considered one of his most important works.


I like the Gloria.


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## jhar26 (Jul 6, 2008)

HarpsichordConcerto said:


> My oh my! You folks seem to prefer those "ancient, old" recordings of Beethoven symphonies; Karajan, Klemperer, Bernstein, Furtwangler etc.


Well, there's room for both modern and period instruments I think. I'm interested in adding some HIP Beethoven to my collection in the future.


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## David58117 (Nov 5, 2009)

The cycles I have so far are: 

Karajan (77)
Klemperer
Szell 
Gardiner 
Masur (74) from the Beethoven Edition

I'm definitely ready to explore more of the HIP route , I've heard the Immerseel and really like it, that will probably be my next beethoven purchase. Out of what I own I think I tend to go with the Gardiner followed by the Karajan the most. The Szell was my introduction to them and holds a special place, but there's more exciting performances I'd rather hear now. The Klemperer I'm still going through...Beethoven performed too slow loses some of that magic, I think. 

The Immerseel set is high on my "to get" list.


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## Guest (Apr 2, 2010)

While some of the older Beethoven symphony cycles are great, and some of the new HIP recordings are intriguing, my recommendation is to go with Osmo Vanska's recent cycle on BIS. These are great recordings. I enjoy the Immerseel/Anima Eterna recordings, but Vanska's is so much more fulfilling.

And the symphonies are definitely a must in a Beethoven collection. I also highly enjoy Szell's recordings with the Cleveland Orchestra, and they have the added benefit of being pretty dirt cheap - they are on Sony, and I have been finding the discs at my local B&N for only ~$7.99 each (most containing two symphonies). Don't let the price fool you. His recording of the 3rd is generally praised.

Piano Sonatas - If you are interested, get all of them. If not, get the "highlights" - Moonlight, Appasionatta, Pathetique, Waldstein, Hammerklavier, among others. I love Kempff's recordings of the middle period sonatas. I'm told, though, that his late sonata performances don't have the same appeal. I have the cycle by Goode on Nonesuch, and it is quite good.

Missa Solemnis - If you enjoy the 9th symphony, this may interest you. It was written around the same time. Klemperer's recording is wonderful, but Gardiner also gives a good show. One of the great choral works, in my opinion.

Concertos - Triple Concerto, Violin Concerto, Piano Concertos - get them all. 

String Quartets - I am not that enthralled by the early quartets, but the middle period quartets (esp. the Razumovsky and Harp Quartets) and the late quartets are very nice. For the middle quartets, I have a recording by the Takacs Quartet on Decca that I have very much enjoyed. In addition, the Brodsky Quartet does a good job. For the late quartets, I have only the Emerson String Quartet's recording, which I enjoy, but have been looking to add another recording to my collection - possibly the Takacs Quartet's recording. Takacs does a wonderful job - I also have their recording of the early quartets, as well as other chamber music from Brahms and Schubert and Haydn. All are wonderful, with great sound.

In my opinion, Beethoven is at the top with Bach. It has nothing to do with volume, rather how much their music moves me. They battle for the top spot. Yes, some of their works (the 9th symphony) do get over-played, but that does not mean that they still aren't incredible works. And even with the 1st and 2nd symphonies, which probably only get less recognition because of what followed, and not for any flaws they possess, his symphonic cycle is the most perfect of symphonic cycles (sorry, Mahler, Beethoven beats you out, in my book). For both of these masters, it is hard to find an area in which they do not hold a commanding presence, if not the top spot. (By the way, that is all my opinion)


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## Aramis (Mar 1, 2009)

There are plenty of older Beethoven threads.

So I won't elaborate too much about composer himself and how I think about him.

Let me state that I hate performances by Anima Eterna and other historical snouts. It's good for likes of Haydn, but not for forwardlooking composer who actually influenced the orchestra to get larger.

Some kewl things not mentioned yet:



















Sorry, I meant this:


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## muxamed (Feb 20, 2010)

*What are your favourite pieces? Favourite versions of pieces?*

Beethoven is one of my favorite composers. It was through his music I entered the famtastic world of classical music. I, as many others started with his symphonies. I still like them much even if I don't return to all of them frequently. Those that I do return to frequently are Nos. 3, 6, 7, 8 and 9. There are many good and great recordings of these works, any of the mentioned above would do. I really like Harnoncourts complete set and I do warmly recommend it to anyone who wants to explore Beethoven.

For me, Beethoven was a great composer of orchestral music but even greater composer of chamber music. It was through his piano sonatas, violin/piano sonatas, cello sonatas and string quartets that he showed his real personality and inner being.

There are some beautiful recordings of piano sonatas done by Brendel, Gilels, Richter etc.

As for the string quartets there have been a couple of wonderful complete cycles recorded through history, the latest one by the splendid Takacs quartet. Earlier recordings that I can recommend are Lindsays from the 80's, Alban Berg from the 80's, Vegh, Quartetto Italiano and Talich Quartet from the 70's. The one that is nearest to my heart is Talich quartet's recordings.

*Least favourite pieces? Least favourite versions of pieces?*

No.

*How do you rate him compared to the other composers?*

As I wrote above he is one of my favorite composers, maybe the absolute favorite.


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## StlukesguildOhio (Dec 25, 2006)

*What are your favourite pieces? *

The symphonies, piano sonatas, string quartets, piano concertos, several other chamber works

*Favourite versions of pieces?*

The complete symphonies:










But I also like the Cluytens set... which is grossly inexpensive:










For individual symphonies Kleiber's 5th is a no-brainer:










I quite like Gardiner's HIP set... especially the 3rd:










For the 6th I'd also go with Bohm:


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## StlukesguildOhio (Dec 25, 2006)

For the piano sonatas? I like these sets:



















I also like these recordings of selected sonatas:


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## StlukesguildOhio (Dec 25, 2006)

Piano Concertos? I personally would avoid any HIP recording. While I love the muscularity and the sound of the original instruments when playing Bach, Handel, Mozart, or Haydn, the piano-forte just sounds ridiculous to me for the _Emperor Concerto_. My favorites:




























Since you have already expressed an aversion to classical vocals (something you may eventually grow to love) I'll just mention that I would go with John Eliot Gardiner for the Missa Solemnis and the Mass in C and Klemperer for the opera Fidelio.

String quartets? I'd go with the Takacs Quartet or the Alban Berg Quartet.

*Least favourite pieces? Least favourite versions of pieces?*

I don't know that I can answer that easily. I already mentioned my aversion to period instruments with Beethoven... other that that I might simply advise you to use a credible music/CD guide and you probably won't go wrong. You may discover certain performances that you prefer to others, but most performances by world class orchestras and performers are quite solid.

*How do you rate him compared to the other composers?*

I'd place him as one of the three towering figures along side (just behind) Bach and Mozart. I would also suggest that if you are deeply passionate about Beethoven you might eventually use him as a place from which to step off into other composers. I would suggest Franz Schubert next (especially his 8th and 9th symphonies, the _Death and the Maiden_ quartet, the _Trout_ quintet, the _Impromptus_, the piano sonatas), Brahms (the 4 symphonies, the violin and cello sonatas, the clarinet works) Bruckner (symphonies 6,7,8,9), and Wagner (overtures).


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## Comistra (Feb 27, 2010)

*What are your favourite pieces?*
The piano sonatas, probably. If not all, then a good chunk of them. It's just too hard to pick one or two out of the whole lot.

I've become slightly cooler toward his symphonies, but only just: they're now among the best, in my mind, not necessarily _the_ best. I have a feeling the pendulum will swing back in the future, though.

*Least favourite pieces?*
The early piano concertos (1 & 2), maybe? Whenever they come on, I'm reminded of Mozart, or perhaps more generally the Classical era; and while that's not _bad_, it's not exactly my cup of tea. I can listen to them but I wouldn't rank them as high as others might.

*How do you rate him compared to the other composers?*
Above them! And it's not really close. No matter what composer I'm currently favoring (Dvořák now, if you couldn't guess), I can't deny the greatness that is Beethoven. Other composers ebb and flow, but Beethoven, to me, is constant.


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## HarpsichordConcerto (Jan 1, 2010)

Aramis said:


> Let me state that I hate performances by Anima Eterna and other historical snouts. It's good for likes of Haydn, but not for forwardlooking composer who actually *influenced the orchestra to get larger.*


In my first HIP Beethoven symphony collection, by The Academy of Ancient Music, the sleeve notes showed the AAM forces used by Hogwood in the recording for the 7th and 8th symphonies employed: "36 vln, 14 va, 13 vc, 7 cb, 4 fl, 4 ob, 4 ***, 2c/***, 4hn, 4 tpt, timp (2players)".

This HIP band would rival any modern symphony orchestra, not for that sake, but for the sake of being informed that the premiere of the 7th and 8th symphonies (February 1814), Beethoven wrote down: "at my last concert in the large _Redoutensaal_ there were 18 first violins 18 seconds, 14 violas, 12 cellos, 7 basses, 2 contra-bassons". The latter indicates that the other wind instruments were also doubled.

In Hogwood's recording of the 9th, the brass section employed were: "8hn, 4tpt, 6tbn".

As for you, member Aramis, some of us here actually do our homework ...

That certainly makes a very loud/full noise (through my B&W loudspeakers) but without making the music sound like a Wagner piece/Beethoven exaggerated.


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## Guest (Apr 3, 2010)

StlukesguildOhio said:


> Piano Concertos? I personally would avoid any HIP recording. While I love the muscularity and the sound of the original instruments when playing Bach, Handel, Mozart, or Haydn, the piano-forte just sounds ridiculous to me for the _Emperor Concerto_. My favorites:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Wow, it is freaky how much I agree with this post. Szell/Fleischer for the piano concertos is a great choice, as is Kempff for the 4th and 5th (personally, I prefer Kempff, but wouldn't be without either). I haven't tried the Perahia cycle, but in general, I really enjoy his recordings.

I also give a huge thumbs up for the Takacs recordings of the string quartets. And if you want to try out Schubert and Brahms, Takacs also have recordings of some of their string quartets on Hyperion (the Takacs recording of the Death and the Maiden quartet is my favorite.

Gardiner is great for the Missa Solemnis and Mass in C - but I do prefer Klemperer for the Missa Solemnis. Klemperer's Fidelio is also great. I forgot that recommendation.


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## HarpsichordConcerto (Jan 1, 2010)

StlukesguildOhio said:


> the piano-forte just sounds ridiculous to me for the _Emperor Concerto_.


Which recording are you referring to, or are you making a general statement assuming that the types of fortepianos used for Mozart and Haydn are also employed for the _Emperor_? If the latter, then that's incorrect. That's because in my versions of the _Emperor_, for example The Academy of Ancient Music, they used a replica of a Conrad Graf, Viennese model from 1824.

Anyone familiar with the history of the fortepiano between the time of Mozart and Haydn to the _Emperor_ would know that the instrument was evolving very quickly indeed. When Beethoven wrote his first piano concerto, the fortepiano weighed _half_ as much as the fortepiano around the time of the _Emperor[/]. It evolved from a 175 pound double-strung instrument in a harpsichord-case to a triple-strung machine weighing twice as much. It would only be natural for Beethoven to write music knowing what the instrument for each concerto was capable of at the time (about 15 year span between composition of the 1st and 5th concertos), as we all know the piano was certainly one of his favourite instruments.

I also have The London Classical Players, Melvyn Tan (fortepiano)'s version (comes with other works like the Choral Fantasy)._


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## are fiefs (Apr 1, 2010)

The Gardiner recording of the 'Missa Solemnis' is excellent to my mind, although it may lack the ludicrously expansive nature of Klemperer's famous rendition (in regards to sonic clarity however, Gardiner's take is outstanding). More relevantly, it (the 'Missa Solemnis') probably represents what I love most about Beethoven, that being his ability to go from the most intimate of whispers, in this case, quite literally, the 'Sanctus', to the most triumphant of roars, best illustrated by the courageously cascading 'Gloria'.

It should be noted however that I find myself singing the 'Kyrie' most often, usually accompanied by some enigmatically inappropriate chord bashing on a piano. Most unfortunately, as we all well know, when one is born, musicality is never a given.


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## Air (Jul 19, 2008)

jhar26 said:


> There are many great recordings of these and the other Beethoven piano sonatas. Personally I'm a sucker for Emil Gilels...


So am I. Gilels is fantastic in this repertoire. Unfortunately, poor Emil died before he finished the complete set so we only get 29 sonatas in total. Here is his fantastic _Waldstein_: 




For all 32, you can't really go wrong with maestro Artur Schnabel here. Here is his magnificent performance of the Op. 111: 



And he was really unmatched in the slower movements such as this: 





The sound is generally atrocious, but best on the Pearl reissue.

I've also heard good things about (and listened to a few sonatas from) Annie Fischer's set. Her playing is strong and passionate, much in the style of tigresses like Teresa Carreño, Maria Tipo, and Martha Argerich:










And not to mention her _Op. 111_, one of the greatest ever: 




For the late sonatas, there are also Maurizio Pollini and Maria Yudina. Yudina is a bit of an eccentric who plays everything with certain individuality - especially her notorious recording of Schubert's d960 - but this can also be heard in her Beethoven. She's fantastic with the late Sonatas.

For high-quality sound, Pollini's late sonatas are hard to beat.


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## nefigah (Aug 23, 2008)

Beethoven is amazing, and just gets more amazing as I continue to explore his works. Thus far, my favorite pieces are the piano sonatas. Believe it or not, they actually led me to like the piano! (Wasn't fond of it for a long time.) You really should listen to them all (many times, if you're like me). I prefer various performers' interpretations of certain sonatas. For example, Serkin for no. 8 ("Pathetique"), Brendel for no. 15 ("Pastoral"), Gilels for most of the middle-period sonatas, Schiff for no. 14 ("Moonlight"), 28, and 31, Richter for no. 32, etc. I'd also like to give a shout-out to Pollini's recording of the late sonatas.

The symphonies are great, of course, and deserve their fame. There was a period of time where I just couldn't get enough of the first 3 movements of the 9th! (Funny, because the last movement is the famous one.) I also recommend the Anima Eterna recordings, though do pick up another version of at least the 3rd and 9th (not that AE's are bad, though I do think the 5-6-7 sequence is where they really shine). 

I second what someone said earlier about not diving right into the late string quartets  I tried that myself, and was largely intimidated: they're large, intricate, and experimental works. I wouldn't be surprised if I eventually count them among the greatest musical achievements in history.

As far as least favorite works, I'm surprised that "Fur Elise" is as popular as it is. In any case, it isn't really representative of Beethoven IMO. "Rage Over a Lost Penny" can also get on the nerves


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## starry (Jun 2, 2009)

nefigah said:


> As far as least favorite works, I'm surprised that "Fur Elise" is as popular as it is.


It's a short catchy piece, so not that surprising. I think Beethoven would have been angry though if he would have known how popular it would have become compared to many other of his works. He was quite angry that the Moonlight sonata (not called that in his time) had become so popular compared to some other pieces of his, so his reaction to the popularity of Fur Elise I can't begin to imagine. Not only that they misread his handwriting and it was actually 'Therese' and not Elise, yet another annoyance for him.


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## Johnny (Mar 7, 2010)

How do you know about his dislike of the Moonlight Sonata's relative popularity?


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## Guest (Apr 3, 2010)

There are a lot of recommendations here for the Anima Eterna recordings of the symphonies, and I am torn over them as a recommendation for starting out. Beethoven gets regularly praised for being so forward looking. Listen to the 32nd piano sonata, specifically the 2nd movement, and tell me you don't hear the anticipation of ragtime and jazz. I heard once that he could be frustrated with the limitations of instruments for what he wanted to do, especially the piano. While his works can be done quite well with period instruments, he seems almost restrained. The Anima Eterna recordings are great, but start with something else - Karajan's 60's cycle, Szell's cycle on Sony, Vanska's on BIS, Jarvi on RCA. The Karajan and Szell cycles are great. If you want the incredible sound engineering, though, then Vanska or Jarvi (I am slightly partial to Vanska) are incredible.


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## Toccata (Jun 13, 2009)

Johnny said:


> How do you know about his dislike of the Moonlight Sonata's relative popularity?


Beethoven expressed surprise at the relative popularity of the C sharp minor sonata. He is reported to have said: _"People are always talking of the C sharp minor Sonata, but I have written better things than that. The F sharp Sonata is something very different."_

He was also surprised at the relative popularity of his Symphony No 7 compared with No 8 (which he referred to as his "Little Symphony") which he considered to be the better of the two


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## nefigah (Aug 23, 2008)

DrMike said:


> Listen to the 32nd piano sonata, specifically the 2nd movement, and tell me you don't hear the anticipation of ragtime and jazz.


Though of course I understand why one could get this impression, I'm not so sure I agree. Rather I think our association of that variation with jazz is just the anachronistic result of having heard a lot of jazz etc. before hearing that movement. I think it's a sublime variation in the context of the movement--a sort of energetic climax--but I can't imagine him writing an entire piece in that style or thinking that there would be a whole genre of music built around it. But it's awesome nonetheless 

Edit: Obligatory citation: Andras Schiff


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## HarpsichordConcerto (Jan 1, 2010)

Anybody here care to comment about Beethoven's _Grosse Fugue_ Op.133? Anybody here love it in the same way as they love the symphonies, piano concertos etc.?

Or was Beethoven just getting old, cranky, mad, "let's write something technically bizzare before I die"?

I admire that is sounds so "20th century", that's about it. But if someone here can enlighten me, please be my guest!


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## Toccata (Jun 13, 2009)

HarpsichordConcerto said:


> Anybody here care to comment about Beethoven's _Grosse Fugue_ Op.133? Anybody here love it in the same way as they love the symphonies, piano concertos etc.?
> 
> Or was Beethoven just getting old, cranky, mad, "let's write something technically bizzare before I die"?
> 
> I admire that is sounds so "20th century", that's about it. But if someone here can enlighten me, please be my guest!


http://www.talkclassical.com/3971-grosse-fugue-what-do.html


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## Lukecash12 (Sep 21, 2009)

Yawn... Most dull composer who ever lived. Too nice to people, never got into any trouble, and certainly never went deaf like this other fella I heard about.


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## Guest (Apr 5, 2010)

HarpsichordConcerto said:


> Anybody here care to comment about Beethoven's _Grosse Fugue_ Op.133? Anybody here love it in the same way as they love the symphonies, piano concertos etc.?
> 
> Or was Beethoven just getting old, cranky, mad, "let's write something technically bizzare before I die"?
> 
> I admire that is sounds so "20th century", that's about it. But if someone here can enlighten me, please be my guest!


At first listen, I thought it was little more than musical chaos. Honestly, I thought it was probably a good idea that he substituted in another ending for the 13th quartet. But the more I listen to it, the more I discover in it. Does it rank higher than the symphonies? No. Nor is it above my favorite of the piano sonatas, or his concertos. But it continues to amaze me in how each time I hear something new. Of course, a lot depends on the skill of the ensemble that is performing. I started with the Emeresons, and now also have the Takacs. The Emersons are incredibly fast in comparison, and it is a marvel to hear it at this speed, but the Takacs Quartet feels more moving.

Definitely not a beginner's work for Beethoven exploration, but do not miss it after becoming acquainted with his more publicly appealing works.


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## Eusebius12 (Mar 22, 2010)

I find it rather analogous to the concluding fugue of the Hammerklavier, more a work of compositional virtuosity than a work to be enjoyed...not that it is perfect fugue by any means, but it is an extraordinary behemoth of a thing, a work of intellectual grandeur. To be honest, the Grosse Fuge is more listenable than the Hammerklavier fugue, it is clearly straining for some transcendance, some liberation from the flesh and almost attains it. The theme itself is a stroke of defiance, thumbing the nose to Fate.


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