# Did Philip Glass Get Bad at Some Point?



## regenmusic (Oct 23, 2014)

Hi,

I am wondering if people think that Phillip Glass' quality of
music went downhill throughout his career. I really liked
Einstein on the Beach and the few works after that, but haven't
paid much attention after that.

What are your thoughts?

Robert


----------



## Triplets (Sep 4, 2014)

To quote Julie Andrews in the Sound Of Music: "Let's start from the very beginning..."


----------



## SONNET CLV (May 31, 2014)

Triplets said:


> To quote Julie Andrews in the _Sound Of Music_: "Let's start from the very beginning..."


Is this the same Julie Andrews who sang the lyric: "The hills, hills, hills, are alive, are alive, with the sound, sound, sound, of music, music, music, music..."?

Yeah. From the beginning. I can second that.


----------



## violadude (May 2, 2011)

I like Einstein on the Beach and Glassworks, maybe a few others. However, I think Reich and Adams took Glass' ideas and made something vastly more interesting from them. It's sort of like when the Classical Era started you had to get through the Boccherinis before you got to the Haydns and Mozarts.


----------



## Guest (Nov 4, 2014)

Glass' symphonies and later concerti are kinda nice in the moment you're listening to them, but yeah, they are a bit of a joke compared to his early stuff.


----------



## Headphone Hermit (Jan 8, 2014)

violadude said:


> I like Einstein on the Beach and Glassworks, maybe a few others. However, I think Reich and Adams took Glass' ideas and made something vastly more interesting from them. It's sort of like when the Classical Era started you had to get through the Boccherinis before you got to the Haydns and Mozarts.


Oh dear, oh dear, oh dear - shakes head in disbelief!


----------



## bigshot (Nov 22, 2011)

Philip Glass simply *is*. He's never gotten any better or worse. He just keeps cranking out more of the same old same old like sausages. If you like it, you snap it up, play it and zone out, marveling upon its absolute uniformity. If you don't like it, he was always just as bad.

Glassworks was constructed as a crossover album for people used to progressive rock, so I imagine it is more accessible simply because of its brevity.


----------



## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

Compared to the earliest "hard core" minimalism, all of the minimalists have expanded their scope, and both Reich and Philip Glass are more dramatic now.

I think the change for Glass (for me and thousands of other PBS viewers) was when he scored for *Koyannisqatsi,* and he & his collaborators realized how effective his music was in a context of dramatic action, although *Koyannisqatsi *is not "narrative," has no plot, yet it rolls along relentlessly, making profound point after point, without any sort of real "plot structure." That's sort of like Glass' music, isn't it?
To say it is "boring" is somewhat misleading and disingenuous, seeing as the music of mimimalism is based on repetition; get past it, and realize what is happening here, and stop making complaints that don't really apply, or go praise some other composer.


----------



## scratchgolf (Nov 15, 2013)

I rather enjoy what I've heard from Glass. Select symphonies, violin concerto, Glassworks. I adore his string quartets and place SQ3 amongst my favorites. My scope isn't broad enough to comment on early works vs late works but I appreciate his music for what it is. Because of Glass, I explored Reich and Adams, yet I still prefer Glass. Now if you're referring to his skills at the piano, then yes, he certainly got bad at some point. I'd say it's time for old Phil to leave the performing to a younger generation.


----------



## bigshot (Nov 22, 2011)

scratchgolf said:


> Now if you're referring to his skills at the piano, then yes, he certainly got bad at some point. I'd say it's time for old Phil to leave the performing to a younger generation.


Repetitive actions repeated over a long period of time can cause Carpel Tunnel Syndrome.


----------



## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

I tend to side with those who think Glass was at his best at the beginning. I'll leave it at that.


----------



## violadude (May 2, 2011)

Headphone Hermit said:


> Oh dear, oh dear, oh dear - shakes head in disbelief!


Sorry, didn't mean to disregard lesser classical era composers. I like quite a few of them and I would probably put CPE Bach up there with Mozart and Haydn. But it's hard to deny that Haydn and Mozart took the Classical style and did more interesting things with them than many of their colleagues.


----------



## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

millionrainbows said:


> To say it is "boring" is somewhat misleading and disingenuous, seeing as the music of mimimalism is based on repetition; get past it, and realize what is happening here, and stop making complaints that don't really apply, or go praise some other composer.


The word "boring" doesn't apply to Glass's music? Even if a good deal of it is, in fact, boring? Somehow I find that puzzling. In any event, give me Reich or Adams any day. Yes, even early "Mr. Minimal" Adams.


----------



## Guest (Nov 5, 2014)

KenOC said:


> The word "boring" doesn't apply to Glass's music? Even if a good deal of it is, in fact, boring? Somehow I find that puzzling. In any event, give me Reich or Adams any day. Yes, even early "Mr. Minimal" Adams.


He is saying that basically that if you find Glass "boring" because of the repetition in his music, yet you do not make a similar claim regarding other minimalist composers, you should probably further define "boring" or risk being that guy with more double standards in his arguments than repetitions in Glass' music


----------



## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

arcaneholocaust said:


> He is saying that basically that if you find Glass "boring" because of the repetition in his music, yet you do not make a similar claim regarding other minimalist composers, you should probably further define "boring" or risk being that guy with more double standards in his arguments than repetitions in Glass' music


That's not how I read what he says. in any event, I find it's boring because, well, to me it's boring. Reich and especially Adams far less so. I'm not making an argument and there's no need for any kind of "standard," single, double, or triple.


----------



## Nereffid (Feb 6, 2013)

Certainly the works of Glass that I like best - and I like them a lot - are all earlier works, from the Satyagraha - Glassworks - Akhnaten period. There's a single-minded quality about their minimalism. I think the problem for me is that when he started to compose in more traditional forms like symphonies he lost that directness. The only later opera I know is Waiting for the Barbarians, and while there's more going on in the music and it's engaging in a dramatic sense I just don't find it as appealing as the more static Satyagraha and Akhnaten.

As an aside, let me give a plug for the Dublin Guitar Quartet's wonderful recent album of transcriptions of Glass's string quartets, released on Glass's own label.


----------



## GioCar (Oct 30, 2013)

Glass' latest works seem uninspired and always recycling the same materials.


----------



## brianvds (May 1, 2013)

Glass is getting ever better. And better. And better. And better. And....


----------



## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

Nereffid said:


> I think the problem for me is that when he started to compose in more traditional forms like symphonies he lost that directness.


That's my feeling as well.


----------



## Headphone Hermit (Jan 8, 2014)

brianvds said:


> Glass is getting ever better. And better. And better. And better. And....


or is as good now as he was then ... as he was ... as he was then ... he was then ... as ...


----------



## Skilmarilion (Apr 6, 2013)

scratchgolf said:


> I rather enjoy what I've heard from Glass. Select symphonies, violin concerto, Glassworks. I adore his string quartets and place SQ3 amongst my favorites.


Yep, I like Quartets 2 - 4 a lot, along with the 1st violin concerto and the harpsichord concerto.


----------



## Guest (Nov 5, 2014)

I question the genius of any style of music which is so easily parodied.


----------



## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

BPS said:


> I question the genius of any style of music which is so easily parodied.


You very, very definitely shouldn't watch this!


----------



## bigshot (Nov 22, 2011)

...or this!


----------



## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

or "How to play piano like Philip Glass"


----------



## Haydn man (Jan 25, 2014)

I have got to admit I like Glass, there is something in his approach that appeals to me. I can quite see that his minimalist repetitive style is not going to be everyone's cup of tea, but then again I can't think of any composer who is universally loved by everyone on TC. 
He is certainly different to Haydn but don't anticipate any name change for username


----------



## OlivierM (Jul 31, 2014)

Philip Glass viewed by Southpark.

If you're easily offended, don't watch, please


----------



## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

OlivierM said:


> If you're easily offended, don't watch, please


Too late.  Should have had headphones on. Grandkids in the room.


----------



## brianvds (May 1, 2013)

Haydn man said:


> I have got to admit I like Glass, there is something in his approach that appeals to me. I can quite see that his minimalist repetitive style is not going to be everyone's cup of tea, but then again I can't think of any composer who is universally loved by everyone on TC.
> He is certainly different to Haydn but don't anticipate any name change for username


I enjoy his work too. But then, I am rather a fan of New Age music, so no surprises there. 

Come to think of it, in all branches of the arts, I regularly run into work that I enjoy way more than I should. I have learned not to feel too guilty or stupid about it.


----------



## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

Nereffid said:


> ...I think the problem for me is that when he started to compose in more traditional forms like symphonies he lost that directness. The only later opera I know is Waiting for the Barbarians, and while there's more going on in the music and it's engaging in a dramatic sense I just don't find it as appealing as the more static Satyagraha and Akhnaten.


It sure would be easy to run with that criticism as being a traditionalist's defensive reaction against the minimalists beginning to encroach on sacred traditional ground.

But I won't; I'll just say that it's the same syndrome that rock fans exhibit when their favorite obscure band suddenly gains popular support.

I like Glass' later works, especially Symphonies 8 & 9; no reason needed. I just like his music. The Canyon is an interesting piece as well.


----------



## Tristan (Jan 5, 2013)

Glass was _good_?

*cowers in corner*


----------



## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

millionrainbows said:


> It sure would be easy to run with that criticism as being a traditionalist's defensive reaction against the minimalists beginning to encroach on sacred traditional ground.
> 
> But I won't . . .


In my case, I don't think it's a defensive reaction; it just seems like something's missing that used to be there.

But I have a great deal of respect for you, so I'll try out the symphonies you mentioned. I don't mind being proven wrong.


----------



## Nereffid (Feb 6, 2013)

millionrainbows said:


> It sure would be easy to run with that criticism as being a traditionalist's defensive reaction against the minimalists beginning to encroach on sacred traditional ground.
> 
> But I won't; I'll just say that it's the same syndrome that rock fans exhibit when their favorite obscure band suddenly gains popular support.


As it happens, I was very excited when I discovered that Glass had written symphonies. Can't remember exactly what was going through my head the 20-odd years ago but I'm pretty sure it wasn't anything to do with being wary of him treading on "sacred traditional ground". Possibly because I only knew a handful of these "traditional" symphonies anyway. I might even have thought that a minimalist tackling symphonic form was a good idea. But it turned out I simply didn't enjoy "Low" as much as I'd enjoyed the earlier works I knew. And though I don't actually dislike any Glass I've heard, I've found myself being less engaged with the more recent stuff.

I might have said it was simply a case of the novelty wearing off but I heard "Another Look at Harmony, part IV" not so long ago and was really impressed, and then discovered it was a work from the 1970s.

But hey, feel free to speculate wildly about my inner thoughts.


----------



## Idit (Nov 9, 2014)

Well - in a word - yes. I agree!!!!


----------



## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

This thread is needless criticism of one of our era's best composers. It would be far more appropriate to talk about his accomplishments.


----------



## GioCar (Oct 30, 2013)

^^^

Music in Twelve Parts (1971-74)
Einstein on the Beach (1975)
Koyaanisqatsi (1982)
Songs from Liquid Days (1986)
Hydrogen Jukebox (1988)

These are his masterpieces imo, and among the best works in music of the last 40 years or so.

Then I have to repeat myself: Glass' latest works seem uninspired and always recycling the same materials.


----------



## bigshot (Nov 22, 2011)

millionrainbows said:


> This thread is needless criticism of one of our era's best composers.


Well, I suppose that is better than being critical of our era in general.


----------



## Jobis (Jun 13, 2013)

millionrainbows said:


> This thread is needless criticism of one of our era's best composers. It would be far more appropriate to talk about his accomplishments.


I disagree, I think he was generally overshadowed by Steve Reich, but that is my opinion! To say he was 'one of the best' isn't really saying anything, surely.


----------



## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

Jobis said:


> I disagree, I think he was generally overshadowed by Steve Reich, but that is my opinion! To say he was 'one of the best' isn't really saying anything, surely.


At one time, I would have agreed with you; but, like Glass, Reich's latest works are not as "pure" as the earlier works. But minimalism had to develop, and go somewhere. The Western classical ethos seems to gravitate towards more complexity and larger forces, which goes along with greater popular appeal and bigger budgets. I don't mind if Glass writes operas, or if Terry Riley writes string quartets, or if Steve Reich puts on grandiose video/performance works like *In The Cave* and *Three Tales.* What's the alternative, 18th century opera? Whatever floats your boat. I'm very happy that these men are producing art.


----------



## DJ Bob (Nov 12, 2014)

I've been trying to find a quote (from Fellini, I believe) but I can't. It was basically that if you examine the whole body of work of any great artist, you will soon discover that that artist is obsessed with something. It may be an idea, or an ideal, or a problem that needs solving, or an image, another artist, etc...

I find this so be true. If it is in fact true, then what is Philip Glass obsessed with?

He is not obsessed with "repetition". He is obsessed with a handful of rhythmic patterns and arpeggios, and much of his post-EOTB music is a frantic re-working of those same patterns and arpeggios into as many different configurations as possible. This listener finds the results extraordinarily moving and fascinating to indulge in.

Some listeners just can't be pleased. The same listener might complain that Glass is too repetitious while Webern or Schoenberg isn't repetitious enough. Glass uses repetition as a musical tool, same as Webern uses a tone-row. And the repetition of Glass is deceptive. It only seems repetitious, but if by "repetition" you mean "the same thing over and over and over", then I am afraid you are mistaken. If you listen closely to any section of EOTB or Koyaanisqatsi you will discover that with almost every so-called "repetition" some sort of change has occurred. The drama and intensity in the music comes largely from the fact that the development occurs over a longer period of time than you may be used to. 

To call Philip Glass' music "bad" is to be a bad listener, I think. I may not like Aaron Copland's music very much, but I had no choice to admit that he was certainly gifted and brilliant and he certainly knew what he was doing. I could say the same for the poetry of Sylvia Plath. I do not enjoy reading her work, but I would never be foolish enough to call her a "bad" poet. 

Glass is often compared and contrasted with Reich. What Glass has that Reich does not have is a thorough training in the Western classical tradition. He understands harmony and form in a way that Reich does not. Glass has a historic grasp of the tradition he is a part of, and Reich does not. Once again, this does not make Reich "bad". But to call Glass "bad" is to overlook how great his sense of melody is, how lush his harmonies and orchestrations can be, and how unique his music is among music.

I personally find that Einstein On The Beach is when he got good, and he has been great ever since.


----------



## Blancrocher (Jul 6, 2013)

DJ Bob said:


> I've been trying to find a quote (from Fellini, I believe) but I can't. It was basically that if you examine the whole body of work of any great artist, you will soon discover that that artist is obsessed with something. It may be an idea, or an ideal, or a problem that needs solving, or an image, another artist, etc...


Apparently, Fellini filled notebook after notebook with drawings of women's t**s and a***s (as he put it), which may be a clue to his obsession.

But I digress.


----------



## DJ Bob (Nov 12, 2014)

> Apparently, Fellini filled notebook after notebook with drawings of women's t**s and a***s (as he put it), which may be a clue to his obsession.


That's mostly what my notebooks are filled with!


----------



## Blake (Nov 6, 2013)

I haven't listened to a single work from Glass. I might go do that.


----------



## Blake (Nov 6, 2013)

I'm actually enjoying some of his stuff quite a bit. I've heard a few symphonies and Itaipu. You just have to know what you're getting into. I knew from the start he was fond of repetitive structures, but as I'm such a fan of Feldman... that doesn't frighten me. I dig it.


----------



## Nereffid (Feb 6, 2013)

Nereffid said:


> Certainly the works of Glass that I like best - and I like them a lot - are all earlier works, from the Satyagraha - Glassworks - Akhnaten period. There's a single-minded quality about their minimalism. I think the problem for me is that when he started to compose in more traditional forms like symphonies he lost that directness. The only later opera I know is Waiting for the Barbarians, and while there's more going on in the music and it's engaging in a dramatic sense I just don't find it as appealing as the more static Satyagraha and Akhnaten.


I wanted to come back to this thread to say that I've recently heard Glass's Violin concerto no.2 "The American Four Seasons", and his Partita for solo violin, which were written in 2009 and 2010, respectively, and I've been very taken by both of them. I hear a lyricism and passion in them that I hadn't found in the other not-quite-as-recent music of his that I've listened to. I'm very pleased to be enthusiastic about new Glass. (And prepared to accept that it's not Glass who's changed, but me)

The performances in question were on these albums:








Gidon Kremer/Kremerata Baltica in the concerto








Tim Fain in the Partita


----------



## Skilmarilion (Apr 6, 2013)

Nereffid said:


> I wanted to come back to this thread to say that I've recently heard Glass's Violin concerto no.2 "The American Four Seasons", and his Partita for solo violin, which were written in 2009 and 2010, respectively, and I've been very taken by both of them. *I hear a lyricism and passion in them that I hadn't found in the other not-quite-as-recent music of his that I've listened to. *


It does seem like he's been venturing more and more towards the lyrical side in recent years. Case in point might be the finale of the 8th symphony, and perhaps even the middle movement of the 9th symphony, which I think is really quite good.

Have you heard the middle movement of the Harpsichord concerto? Really beautiful stuff imo.


----------



## SONNET CLV (May 31, 2014)

*Did Philip Glass Get Bad at Some Point? *

When he gave up taxi driving to become a composer, perhaps?


----------



## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

SONNET CLV said:


> *Did Philip Glass Get Bad at Some Point? *
> 
> When he gave up taxi driving to become a composer, perhaps?


OOOFFF!!!


----------



## Lord Lance (Nov 4, 2013)

I don't understand the criticism very well. If minimalism and repetition in music is his style, then how can he be disliked or his works considered inferior for employing repetition?


----------



## Albert7 (Nov 16, 2014)

Lord Lance said:


> I don't understand the criticism very well. If minimalism and repetition in music is his style, then how can he be disliked or his works considered inferior for employing repetition?


----------

