# My Response To "There’s a good reason why there are no great female composers"



## anniechernow (Sep 21, 2015)

*My Response To "There's a good reason why there are no great female composers"*

https://anniechernow.wordpress.com/


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

Lili Boulanger was a great composer.


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

Fantastic response. Although it would be worthwhile to say that being limited to Romantic repertoire and earlier is already limiting oneself to repertoire from a time where women were already oppressed in western society with ownership by men through marriage and so on. What might be more interesting is looking at contemporary composers such as Isabel Mundry, Unsuk Chin, Gloria Coates, Liza Lim, Sofia Gubaidulina and Rebecca Saunders, to name just a few. 

What's also very interesting is that Wikipedia's chronological list of composers begins with some very fascinating women from 1000 years ago and earlier. 

In the end, dismissiveness of composers like Clara Schumann and Fanny Mendelssohn comes down to the patriarchy in information, inherited bigoted viewpoints (rather than musical analysis) and, in some cases, just downright sexism. No one should be celebrated purely for being female. There are reasons to celebrate and admire any composer, and through open minded analysis of their works there is something good to be found in anything.


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## Dim7 (Apr 24, 2009)

I was under the impression that women were at least somewhat more prominent in other arts in comparison even when they were "oppressed". Why is that?


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

I'll bet because composing under pseudonyms wasn't so common in classical music because of the performance aspect of it as well that many composers partook in.


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## violadude (May 2, 2011)

Good article. 

But just as a side note, if Hilary Clinton loses, it won't be because she's a woman. It'll be because she's an empty suite Wall Street puppet. :scold:


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## Richannes Wrahms (Jan 6, 2014)

As for the whole media wave of feminism and the like I'll live it untouched for the sake of the ToS. 

As for female composers: there's the greatest (Hildegard of Bingen), a bunch of mediocre (from outright poor to average to fine to promising, none of them really influential save Nadia Boulager via teaching neoclassicism assuming that style has any greatness) composers and plenty that didn't compose enough to mature (including those that died young), then some female modern composers where the dust has not settled yet.


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## Epilogue (Sep 20, 2015)

anniechernow said:


> There are people in this world who believe that there are no more barriers keeping women from succeeding and doing what they want to do with their lives... There are people in this world who think that women are being honored, just because they are women.


The first belief being untrue doesn't prevent the second one from being true.


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## ArtMusic (Jan 5, 2013)

I would add that female composers suffer from sexism just as much as younger composers suffer from age discrimination. Consider Alma Deutscher - a female and a child prodigy but capable and yet I sometimes read less than welcoming opinion about her (to which people are entitled to make, of course).


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## GreenMamba (Oct 14, 2012)

Alma Deutscher doesn't suffer from age discrimination. In fact, the only reason her works are known is her age. If a grown-up composed the same works they likely would never have drawn any attention.


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## DaveM (Jun 29, 2015)

It's not too difficult to figure out why female composers were few and far between before, say, 1950. But why is that still relatively true these days? There are far more female professional musicians now than there was just decades ago so why so few composers?


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## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

DaveM said:


> It's not too difficult to figure out why female composers were few and far between before, say, 1950. But why is that still relatively true these days? There are far more female professional musicians now than there was just decades ago so why so few composers?


There are a good number as far as I can see. Some of them are relatively prominent, too. If they're not played as often as the best-known composers before the present day, it's really not that much different from the situation of their male colleagues.


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## Nereffid (Feb 6, 2013)

An interesting recent survey of American orchestras conducted by the Baltimore Symphony Orchestra (https://www.bsomusic.org/stories/by-the-numbers-female-composers/) found that women accounted for just under 15% of living composers whose works were being performed in the 2014/15 season. As opposed to 0.12% of dead composers! So, yeah, progress is being made, but parity is some distance away.


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## Guest (Sep 24, 2015)

One unintended result of misogyny is that music by females is more consistently good than that by their male counterparts.

Female composers have to bring their A game all the time to get any sort of hearing at all. Their male counterparts can bring their B and C games and still get a hearing.

Just look at two people who started out at a dead heat as far as fame is concerned, the co-composers in residence for the Chicago symphony. Only three years older than Clyne, Bates has become the second most performed living composer in the U.S.

Many listeners, myself included, find his work to be quite ordinary, dull and forgettable, whereas Clyne's music is individual and quite memorable. Not only that, it repays repeat listens in a way that Bates just can't provide. Bates not only gets hearings for his C game music, but has become very successful with it, too. Clyne's A game music gets her a hearing.


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## Blancrocher (Jul 6, 2013)

some guy said:


> Just look at two people who started out at a dead heat as far as fame is concerned, the co-composers in residence for the Chicago symphony. Only three years older than Clyne, Bates has become the second most performed living composer in the U.S.
> 
> Many listeners, myself included, find his work to be quite ordinary, dull and forgettable, whereas Clyne's music is individual and quite memorable. Not only that, it repays repeat listens in a way that Bates just can't provide. Bates not only gets hearings for his C game music, but has become very successful with it, too. Clyne's A game music gets her a hearing.


Mind you, women seem much more prominent in the classical music composer scene than in the electronic dance music dj scene (where Mason Bates has at least one foot in the door, which might complicate the comparison between him and Anna Clyne).


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## DaveM (Jun 29, 2015)

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> In the end, dismissiveness of composers like Clara Schumann and Fanny Mendelssohn comes down to the patriarchy in information, inherited bigoted viewpoints (rather than musical analysis) and, in some cases, just downright sexism.


There were a number of male composers in the 19th century whose works were dismissed for good reason. It was even in vogue for some members of the royalty to try their hand at composing with far from impressive results. I've listened to works by both Clara and Fanny and their works are pedestrian for the most part. I don't think they even considered their works to be 'all that' up against their husband & brother respectively.

Sexism & cultural restrictions of women at that time certainly interfered with the ability of women to rise to the levels of male composers, but acknowledging that doesn't mean that a critical pass needs or needed to be given to the female composers that did exist.



> There are reasons to celebrate and admire any composer, and through open minded analysis of their works there is something good to be found in anything.


Oh, i don't think so. There are and have been some minimally talented composers and some real crappy music out there.


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