# Why Counter tenors instead of mezzo sopranos?



## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

Someone asked me: How did counter tenors become the voice of fashion instead of mezzo sopranos and when did the trend change?
I really couldn't give a definitive answer.


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## Biffo (Mar 7, 2016)

I think you need to qualify that with 'for baroque and earlier music', you won't get many countertenors or falsettists singing Carmen.

The change to countertenors sing alto and mezzo parts has more or less followed the fashion (or trend) for historically informed performance (aka HIP). It started in the 1950s (roughly speaking) and some of the pioneer countertenors such as Alfred Deller were also pioneers of HIP. Again, roughly speaking, the practice spread from sacred music, oratorios etc to opera. Countertenors were singing parts that had either been sung by castrati or falsettists. High male voices had been fashionable in the 16th through early 18th century but gradually fell from favour; when music from that era was revived it was usually sung by wormen.

Also, in the 18th century and earlier composers such as Bach wrote for mature boy sopranos and altos; in those days boys voices broke a lot later, sometimes as late as 18. This is no longer the case and until recently this muisc was sung by women.

This, of course is a bit of a simplification and I am sure others will have plenty to say on the subject.


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## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

nina foresti said:


> Someone asked me: How did counter tenors become the voice of fashion instead of mezzo sopranos and when did the trend change?
> I really couldn't give a definitive answer.


I would also like to know this. Deep female voices are tremendously underrated and have so much more depth, creaminess, sultriness.....countertenors have none of this. they sound thin, smaller range, less dynamic contrast, none of that warmth or melodious legato.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Biffo said:


> I think you need to qualify that with 'for baroque and earlier music', you won't get many countertenors or falsettists singing Carmen.
> 
> The change to countertenors sing alto and mezzo parts has more or less followed the fashion (or trend) for historically informed performance (aka HIP). It started in the 1950s (roughly speaking) and some of the pioneer countertenors such as Alfred Deller were also pioneers of HIP. Again, roughly speaking, the practice spread from sacred music, oratorios etc to opera. Countertenors were singing parts that had either been sung by castrati or falsettists. High male voices had been fashionable in the 16th through early 18th century but gradually fell from favour; when music from that era was revived it was usually sung by wormen.
> 
> ...


I'll follow this fine explanation with the observation that because of the HIP phenomenon we now have far more countertenors with the technique and musical understanding to do justice to the difficult vocal writing of Baroque music. There are even male sopranos (sopranists) of great technical and musical accomplishment. It's pretty hard to argue with the voice and art of Franco Fagioli:











If we have more and more and more people who can sing like Fagioli - or David Daniels, or Philippe Jaroussky - there's every reason to cast them in the male roles in Baroque opera originally sung by castrati, the kings of opera in their day. They have the advantage over women of looking like men and, for those attuned to the peculiar qualities of the male treble, of sounding like them.


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

Woodduck, you know that I value every one of your posts, but have you heard 'Frank Beans' live? I wouldn't include him in a list of reasons to celebrate the countertenor.

N.


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

BalalaikaBoy said:


> I would also like to know this. Deep female voices are tremendously underrated and have so much more depth, creaminess, sultriness.....countertenors have none of this. they sound thin, smaller range, less dynamic contrast, none of that warmth or melodious legato.


I agree, whilst there are some wonderful countertenors who can also deliver in the opera house, having listened to the available recordings of Moreschi (the last castrato) he sounds far more like a lyric contralto/dramatic mezzo than a countertenor. Whilst it is intuitive to replace the male castrato with the male countertenor, in general I prefer castrato roles to be played by mezzos.

N.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

The Conte said:


> Woodduck, you know that I value every one of your posts, but have you heard 'Frank Beans' live? I wouldn't include him in a list of reasons to celebrate the countertenor.
> 
> N.


I have never heard any beans live, either frank or reticent.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

The Conte said:


> I agree, whilst there are some wonderful countertenors who can also deliver in the opera house, having listened to the available recordings of Moreschi (the last castrato) he sounds far more like a lyric contralto/dramatic mezzo than a countertenor. Whilst it is intuitive to replace the male castrato with the male countertenor, in general I prefer castrato roles to be played by mezzos.
> 
> N.


I agree that it would be wrong to assume that countertenors and sopranists in general sound like castrati or equal their fabled power and virtuosity. Some of the accounts are astonishing (though we have no reason to doubt them), but a singer like Fagioli must be a very good approximation. The sound is large, the technique superb, and the timbre full, brilliant, and unlike that of a woman. As time goes on we're likely to get more singers attaining this level of virtuosity, musicality and dramatic power. Why cast the very feminine-sounding Jennifer Larmore as a warrior or a king if we can have this?


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## Don Fatale (Aug 31, 2009)

I saw and much enjoyed Handel's Agrippina last year in a wonderful Robert Carsen production, which surely will be revived.

The production was notable for the three countertenor roles, who all performed admirably, but they seemed to share the same pitch range as Patricia Bardon the mezzo. For me as a listener it made it difficult to distinguish between them. Perhaps that is more of Handel's fault on this occasion.

For my own tastes, much as I prefer Bach's keyboard works on a piano rather than harpsichord, I'd prefer to have some of these roles transposed or dropped into the tenor/baritone range.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

I'm sure I'm right in thinking that, even in Handel's day, the high male roles might be played by castrati, countertenors or women. There was no hard and fast rule.


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

Woodduck said:


> I agree that it would be wrong to assume that countertenors and sopranists in general sound like castrati or equal their fabled power and virtuosity. Some of the accounts are astonishing (though we have no reason to doubt them), but a singer like Fagioli must be a very good approximation. The sound is large, the technique superb, and the timbre full, brilliant, and unlike that of a woman. As time goes on we're likely to get more singers attaining this level of virtuosity, musicality and dramatic power. *Why cast the very feminine-sounding Jennifer Larmore as a warrior or a king if we can have this?[/*QUOTE]
> Why have to cast either one?
> Why not just cast a voice like NY City Opera did with Norman Treigle in _Gulio Cesare_?


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## wkasimer (Jun 5, 2017)

Biffo said:


> I think you need to qualify that with 'for baroque and earlier music', you won't get many countertenors or falsettists singing Carmen.


I predict that we'll have a countenor Carmen within the next five years, if not sooner.


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## wkasimer (Jun 5, 2017)

The Conte said:


> I agree, whilst there are some wonderful countertenors who can also deliver in the opera house, having listened to the available recordings of Moreschi (the last castrato) he sounds far more like a lyric contralto/dramatic mezzo than a countertenor. Whilst it is intuitive to replace the male castrato with the male countertenor, in general I prefer castrato roles to be played by mezzos.


It's hard to judge anything based on Moreschi's records. First, they're early acoustic recordings that are very tough listening even for those used to such things. Second, although he was only in his mid-40's, he was well past his prime (which apparently occurred much earlier in castrati than in unemasculated men).

With a few notable exceptions (which are becoming, thankfully, more common), most countertenors sound to me like third rate mezzos.


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## schigolch (Jun 26, 2011)

Because it makes sense, basically.

In the case of the _castrati_, as we all surely agree that having thousands of musically gifted children castrated to select the best a few years later to sing Opera, is no longer an option, we need a viable solution for the roles they were singing. Because the original intent, the reason why some roles were written for _castrati_ in "opera seria" was to use their voices, their high-pitch and their 'canto fiorito' as a kind of symbol of elevated values. To emphasise their bigger-than-human nature. They could be gods, mythological beings or invincible warriors, mighty kings... The peculiar timbre of the _castrato_, and the high notes, were the right way, in the mind of many Baroque composers, to underline this nature. Though the singing in falsetto of the countertenor is not exactly the same thing, it nevertheless possess those qualities in a higher degree than a female low fach, in most cases.

Why did Rossini wrote the role of Tancredi for a female alto instead of a _castrato_?. Apart from the availability of great alto singers like Adelaide Malanotte or Rosmunda Pisaroni, he still felt the need of using a special timbre for the heroic roles, and there were no longer a large number of _castrati_ around.

So, using countertenors for Baroque Opera, is an informed and, in my view, appropriate decision.

Then again, personal tastes are ... well, personal. Nothing wrong with that. If someone dislikes the countertenor voice, just look for another option.

Of course, apart from Baroque, countertenors are also often present in contemporary opera.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Maybe we could turn the opening question round, and simply ask, Why not countertenors? If they sound as good, and sing as musically as a mezzo, then why not. Regardless of the pitch he is singing at, David Daniels has one of the most beautiful voices I have ever heard, and I've heard him in a variety of venues of different sizes. His voice carries easily and he is also a wonderfully musical singer, a great communicator and an excellent actor. If a singer is that good, then why not a countertenor?


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

GregMitchell;1411129[B said:


> ]Maybe we could turn the opening question round, and simply ask, Why not countertenors? If they sound as good, and sing as musically as a mezzo, then why not.[/B] Regardless of the pitch he is singing at, David Daniels has one of the most beautiful voices I have ever heard, and I've heard him in a variety of venues of different sizes. His voice carries easily and he is also a wonderfully musical singer, a great communicator and an excellent actor. If a singer is that good, then why not a countertenor?


But I think that's the whole point when they ask me that question. Because to many people's ear they DON'T sound as good as mezzo sopranos and there is definitely a difference in sound and that is the reason for the puzzlement.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

nina foresti said:


> But I think that's the whole point when they ask me that question. Because to many people's ear they DON'T sound as good as mezzo sopranos and there is definitely a difference in sound and that is the reason for the puzzlement.


I'll just repeat what I said. If a singer is as good as David Daniels (or Philip Jaroussky, and quite a few others whose names are not at the moment on the tip of my tongue), then why not? David Daniels, to my ears, sounds a lot better than many of the mezzos who have sung the same roles he does.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

nina foresti said:


> Why not just cast a voice like NY City Opera did with Norman Treigle in _Gulio Cesare_?


The transposition involved in using a baritone or bass changes the music. It's hard to know what the composers would have to say about this in any particular case; certainly composers in the Baroque era were quite flexible about rearranging their music, and the aria "But who may abide" in Handel's _Messiah_ is an example of a piece existing in alternative versions for alto and bass. I wouldn't say that this gives us a free hand to do the same, especially if we have competent people to sing the music as written, but I don't think we need to be dogmatic about it. Aside from being severely abridged, chopped up and rearranged, that NYC Opera _Giulio Cesare_ with Sills and Treigle is an enjoyable show.


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

Interesting that this thread seems to have developed a defense mechanism, when all that was asked by several different people who are not normally "into" opera, why they used counter tenors way back when in the first place, instead of mezzo sopranos. Who started it and what was the reason for it? That's all.
Actually, I didn't mean to start an entire discussion about counter tenors vs. mezzos and who prefers what (which is also an interesting discussion -- just not really this one).


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

nina foresti said:


> Interesting that this thread seems to have developed a defense mechanism, when all that was asked by several different people who are not normally "into" opera, why they used counter tenors way back when in the first place, instead of mezzo sopranos. Who started it and what was the reason for it? That's all.
> Actually, I didn't mean to start an entire discussion about counter tenors vs. mezzos and who prefers what (which is also an interesting discussion -- just not really this one).


And I think that question has largely been answered. In Handel's day, it was not at all uncommon to find mezzos performing alongside countertenors, and both alongside castrati.

I am pleased at least that we no longer transpose some of these roles down an octave so they can be taken on by baritones or basses. I would far rather hear them in the original keys and at the correct pitch, whether the decision is to use a mezzo _or_ a countertenor.


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## ldiat (Jan 27, 2016)

nice guys. you guys are the experts and its great. just a question. the era of Artaserse and at the time, was it not true women were not permitted to sing on stage? so the countertenors were employed?? thanks!


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## schigolch (Jun 26, 2011)

No, women could sing on stage during the Baroque period.


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

Woodduck said:


> I agree that it would be wrong to assume that countertenors and sopranists in general sound like castrati or equal their fabled power and virtuosity. Some of the accounts are astonishing (though we have no reason to doubt them), but a singer like Fagioli must be a very good approximation. The sound is large, the technique superb, and the timbre full, brilliant, and unlike that of a woman. As time goes on we're likely to get more singers attaining this level of virtuosity, musicality and dramatic power. Why cast the very feminine-sounding Jennifer Larmore as a warrior or a king if we can have this?


Having heard both live, perhaps because one sings and the other sounds like a constipated sheep? Frank Beans fully earned his nickname.

N.


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

schigolch said:


> No, women could sing on stage during the Baroque period.


Exactly, one of Handel's most famous sopranos was Francesca Cuzoni. There were periods in Rome when opera was banned and only oratorio was permitted, but there were women singing in opera in London during the Baroque period.

N.


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

GregMitchell said:


> I'll just repeat what I said. If a singer is as good as David Daniels (or Philip Jaroussky, and quite a few others whose names are not at the moment on the tip of my tongue), then why not? David Daniels, to my ears, sounds a lot better than many of the mezzos who have sung the same roles he does.


Yes, I agree. However, there's a difference between preferring specific singers (whether mezzos or countertenors) in particular roles and having a general preference for mezzos or countertenors in Baroque opera.

N.


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## ldiat (Jan 27, 2016)

schigolch said:


> No, women could sing on stage during the Baroque period.


ok thanks i must have read it wrong. thanks


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## Barelytenor (Nov 19, 2011)

nina foresti said:


> Someone asked me: How did counter tenors become the voice of fashion instead of mezzo sopranos and when did the trend change?
> I really couldn't give a definitive answer.


Because you can get counter tenors at a bargain.

Bargain counter tenors.

Kind regards, :tiphat:

George


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