# Greatest Verdian Conductors - a poll



## GioCar (Oct 30, 2013)

Conducting Verdi's operas is one of the most dangerous tasks, imo.


Verdi's music can sound sublime or quite dull, depending on who's holding the baton... I have in mind some prestigious but "unsuited" conductors I've heard live at La Scala who just ruined the performance by delivering in the worst case the kind of lifeless "zum-pa-pa musik" (as the 19th-Century Wagnerian used to say of his music) we (wrongly) associate sometimes with his works.


Who were/are the great Verdian conductors, those really able to bring his music to life?
Please pick up one to max three names. Thank you.

:tiphat:


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## GioCar (Oct 30, 2013)

My votes are for Muti, Karajan and Abbado.

Muti is possibly the greatest living conductor for Verdi's work, Karajan and Abbado made some outstanding reference recordings such as Falstaff (Karajan) and Simon Boccanegra (Abbado).


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Overall Muti for me.:tiphat:


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## schigolch (Jun 26, 2011)

A similar poll was conducted among Spanish fans in the bicentennial year, and the results were:

1.- Muti
2.- Abbado
3.- Toscanini

Personally, my preference is also Muti.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Three is hard. There are a few on the list I would choose (Abbado, Giulini, Karajan, Carlos Kleiber, Muti, Pappano, Toscanini, De Sabata), one I definitely wouldn't (Solti) and a couple who are missing (Serafin, Gui, Erich Kleiber).

Limited to just three, I'd probably go for

Giulini (for *Don Carlo*, *Il Trovatore*, *La Traviata* (live with Callas) and the *Requiem*, not so much for his *Falstaff* and *Rigoletto*)
Karajan (for the Callas *Il Trovatore*, his first *Falstaff*, both *Aida*s, both *Otello*s, despite the heinous cut in the second, *Don Carlos*, not so much for his *Un Ballo in Maschera* and second *Falstaff*)
Serafin (for all his work with Callas, but also for his *La Traviata* with De Los Angeles, and his *Otello* with Vickers)

But then I think of Abbado's *Simon Boccanegra* and *Macbeth*, of Toscanini's *Otello* and *Falstaff*, De Sabata's *Requiem* and live *Macbeth* with Callas, and though none of Muti's recordings would be my outright first choice, none of them is negligible, and I think I'd be right in saying he actually conducted more of Verdi's oevre than any of the others, so maybe he should be one of my three.

There should also be an honorable mention for Gardelli, who did such sterling work in early Verdi.

So, as so often in these polls, I find it impossible to make a choice of three, let alone one.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

de Sabata. Not even close.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

hpowders said:


> de Sabata. Not even close.


But what are you basing this on? As far as I'm aware, there is very little on disc, though what there is is admittedly very impressive.

A studio *Requiem*
Live recordings of *Macbeth*, *Aida* and *Falstaff* and that's about it.


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## Figleaf (Jun 10, 2014)

hpowders said:


> de Sabata. Not even close.





GregMitchell said:


> But what are you basing this on? As far as I'm aware, there is very little on disc, though what there is is admittedly very impressive.
> 
> A studio *Requiem*
> Live recordings of *Macbeth*, *Aida* and *Falstaff* and that's about it.


I don't know anything about conducting, but surely four complete Verdi recordings from a single conductor would seem like plenty of evidence for or against his suitability in Verdi? If we insist that a conductor must have recorded all, or a very high percentage of, Verdi's works, then that would mean that recent and currently active artists would be overrepresented within the small selection that would then be available to us, and this would potentially limit the variety of styles among those conductors eligible to be considered 'greatest'.

I'd be interested to hear what others think. Is it unfair to judge the greatness of a Verdi conductor on a mere handful of complete recordings, or should these be evidence enough?


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## GioCar (Oct 30, 2013)

GregMitchell said:


> Three is hard. There are a few on the list I would choose (Abbado, Giulini, Karajan, Carlos Kleiber, Muti, Pappano, Toscanini, De Sabata), one I definitely wouldn't (Solti) and a couple who are missing (Serafin, Gui, Erich Kleiber).
> 
> Limited to just three, I'd probably go for
> 
> ...


Yes you are right, at least Tullio Serafin should have been in my list. Sorry about that.

Re. Solti, he produced some impressive recordings (such as the Aida with the Opera di Roma) so I put him in the poll list, although he's not among my favorites as well.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

GioCar said:


> Yes you are right, at least Tullio Serafin should have been in my list. Sorry about that.
> 
> Re. Solti, he produced some impressive recordings (such as the Aida with the Opera di Roma) so I put him in the poll list, although he's not among my favorites as well.


I hate that Solti *Aida*, or rather I like the cast, but hate the conducting. I've never liked Solti in Verdi, to be honest.


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## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

GregMitchell said:


> I hate that Solti *Aida*, or rather I like the cast, but hate the conducting. I've never liked Solti in Verdi, to be honest.


*Um*-pah. *Um*-pah. *Um*-pah. *Um*-pah. *Um*-pah. _Um_-_ha-ha-ha. _


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Figleaf said:


> I don't know anything about conducting, but surely four complete Verdi recordings from a single conductor would seem like plenty of evidence for or against his suitability in Verdi? If we insist that a conductor must have recorded all, or a very high percentage of, Verdi's works, then that would mean that recent and currently active artists would be overrepresented within the small selection that would then be available to us, and this would potentially limit the variety of styles among those conductors eligible to be considered 'greatest'.
> 
> I'd be interested to hear what others think. Is it unfair to judge the greatness of a Verdi conductor on a mere handful of complete recordings, or should these be evidence enough?


It's a good point. I suppose I meant compared to the likes of Serafin, Abbado, Muti and Karajan, all of whom have a much larger body of Verdi works in the catalogue.

Unfortunately De Sabata, who is quite possibly the greatest all-round Italian conductor after Toscanini, hated the recording studio. What little we have are all priceless treasures, and with the Callas *Tosca* at least, he produced one of the indisputably greatest complete opera recordings of all time.


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## Don Fatale (Aug 31, 2009)

Alas I can't give an opinion as a musicologist, so I'll just go with my gut - Toscanini. That he knew Verdi (played cello at the Falstaff premiere, I believe) gives me a particular feeling when listening. Just once removed from the man himself. If only some of the recordings had more fidelity.


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

Alexander said:


> Alas I can't give an opinion as a musicologist, so I'll just go with my gut - Toscanini. That he knew Verdi (played cello at the Falstaff premiere, I believe) gives me a particular feeling when listening. Just once removed from the man himself. If only some of the recordings had more fidelity.


I have to wonder why having played a cello in the premier gives him any greater insight into the works. While he may have at other times, I rather doubt that he had the opportunity to discuss it at length with either Verdi or the conductor during the rehearsals.


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## sospiro (Apr 3, 2010)

Not sure if you want our opinion of live performances, as seen in person or on CD/DVD, or studio recordings. I voted for Muti and Pappano (seen his Verdi and he is brilliant) but my 'other' is Lamberto Gardelli who recorded many of the early Verdis and who is my favourite.

His _Nabucco_ is superb.


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## Cavaradossi (Aug 2, 2012)

I was front and center for Muti's concert version of MacBeth with the Chicago Symphony Orchestra around the time of the Verdi bicentennial. That one translucent performance may have spoiled me for other Verdi interpreters - past, present, or future.


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## sospiro (Apr 3, 2010)

Cavaradossi said:


> I was front and center for Muti's concert version of MacBeth with the Chicago Symphony Orchestra around the time of the Verdi bicentennial. That one translucent performance may have spoiled me for other Verdi interpreters - past, present, or future.


I can imagine!!!


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## Cavaradossi (Aug 2, 2012)

Imagine this! It was something like having MacBeth performed in your living room.


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

Tosci numero uno followed by Jeemy.


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## AndyS (Dec 2, 2011)

A lot of hate for Solti in this thread but I actually really like his Requiem and Don Carlos


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## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

AndyS said:


> A lot of hate for Solti in this thread but I actually really like his Requiem and Don Carlos


Well, he _did say _some savaging things about Divina- so regardless of the merits or demerits of his conducting, he deserves the 'cut-direct' at the cotillion. 
_
;D_


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## Don Fatale (Aug 31, 2009)

Becca said:


> I have to wonder why having played a cello in the premier gives him any greater insight into the works. While he may have at other times, I rather doubt that he had the opportunity to discuss it at length with either Verdi or the conductor during the rehearsals.


Yes indeed, what possible insights could a young conductor obtain from rehearsing an opera with the composer, and from their relationship over Verdi's last 14 years? Perhaps you might want to listen to this broadcast which discusses Toscanini's relationship to Verdi.






(Apologies for my previous misnaming of the opera on which Toscanini played cello, it was Otello of course).


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

imo none of them. They're all hit and miss.
The worst for me though are Muti and Pappano.
Muti for being 4 square and too fast, uughh, Where's the soul Ricky?
and Pappano too wimpy for Verdi. Wheres the bravura Tony?

Karajan conducts Karajan, Solti too fierce. etc etc

mho


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## sospiro (Apr 3, 2010)

Cavaradossi said:


> Imagine this! It was something like having MacBeth performed in your living room.
> 
> View attachment 66524


Oh. My. Goodness.



Envious!!!


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## undifelice (Mar 11, 2015)

Kleiber for his 1977 "Traviata" with Cotrubas and Domingo. I never tire of it! And Giulini for his Don Carlo. Sublime.


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## Albert7 (Nov 16, 2014)

1. Sinopoii... enough said.


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## GioCar (Oct 30, 2013)

Itullian said:


> imo none of them. They're all hit and miss.
> The worst for me though are Muti and Pappano.
> Muti for being 4 square and too fast, uughh, Where's the soul Ricky?
> and Pappano too wimpy for Verdi. Wheres the bravura Tony?
> ...


If you'd like to, please give your vote to "others" and specify who. Your opinion is much appreciated by me, my friend


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## Belowpar (Jan 14, 2015)

I have no problems with the names you put forward and have been lucky enough to have seen a few of them at work. While I guess this is basic meat and drink for discussion groups I have a Question I think more interesting.

Who are today's great Verdi conductors?

Unhesitatingly I put forward Mark Elder. I was lucky that when I started seeing Opera he was the Chief at ENO. In particular I recall his Rigoletto and A Masked Ball. Can only see an English language Otello on CD. Had he held out for an international house earlier in his career then more recordings would surely have followed.

James Levine. Seems to get little love on here but in years of listening to the Texaco Matinee form the Met he has never disappointed in mature Verdi. Coming to the end of his career?

pS
Another great Verdian that I saw regularly but sadly no longer with us, Sir Edward Downes.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Albert7 said:


> 1. Sinopoii... enough said.


Ugh!

I once heard Sinopoli conduct the *Requiem* at the Royal Festival Hall in London. Admittedly one heard things in the score one had never heard before, but it was as if he had taken the score apart and scattered the various elements around for admiring display. In so doing he had removed its heart and somehow lost it. It was the most soulless performance of the piece I had ever heard. Not one tear was shed, not one shred of true emotion felt. It's certainly not my idea of Verdi. I have heard many performances of the *Requiem*, some with great performers, some not so great, but _all_ have been emotional experiences, except for this one by Sinopoli.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Belowpar said:


> I have no problems with the names you put forward and have been lucky enough to have seen a few of them at work. While I guess this is basic meat and drink for discussion groups I have a Question I think more interesting.
> 
> Who are today's great Verdi conductors?
> 
> ...


I'd agree with you on Elder and the late Sir Edward Downes. Levine, rather like Papano, is an excellent opera conductor, who excelled in a wide range of operatic repertoire, but I'm not sure I'd put his Verdi up there with the likes of De Sabata, Toscanini, Giulini or even Karajan. I like his recording of *I Vespri Siciliani*, but I rather wish his recording of *Giovanna d'Arco* on EMI with Caballe, Domingo and Milnes had appeared as one of the Philips series and instead been conducted by Gardelli, who has a much greater feel for the lyrical line.

That reminds me that I once heard Gardelli conduct the *Requiem*, stepping in for an indisposed Giulini. We were all rather disappointed not to be hearing Giulini, but Gardelli won us all over almost from the first note, the performance was both thrilling and profoundly moving.

As for today's great conductors, I'm not sure. Verdi is suffering from a dearth of great Verdi singers, not just Verdi conductors.


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## Headphone Hermit (Jan 8, 2014)

GregMitchell said:


> Ugh!
> 
> I once heard Sinopoli conduct the *Requiem* at the Royal Festival Hall in London.


And you really think deep knowledge, long experience and listening to a live performance can trump glancing at a you-tube clip and listening through $25 earbuds? :lol:


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

GioCar said:


> If you'd like to, please give your vote to "others" and specify who. Your opinion is much appreciated by me, my friend


OK paisan,
I'll go with Serafin. I like him best from what I've heard of him.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

After subscribing to the Met for quite a few years, I have to give kudos to James Levine as a very fine Verdi/Wagner conductor.

He has made the Met orchestra into a world class ensemble, that can give the Vienna Philharmonic/Vienna State Opera Orchestra a fine run for the money as the world's greatest pit band.


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