# Dialogues of the Carmelites



## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

last tik of the season ... it was great. This one is going in the "Better than Wonderful" column, and I'm wondering why they don't do it every year like they do La Boheme. Well, it must not be as popular. Duh.

I was wondering before the show just how "minimalist" it was going to be - I know the director, Dexter, was hired at least partly because of his skill in cutting expenses and still putting on great shows - and the answer was, minimalism for this show anyway means a tool for bringing out the drama. There really was very little in the way of stage or sets at any point, but what was there just focused all your attention on what was going on, and didn't distract you into thinking "oh, the director is making a point of being Minimalist" - not at all.

Some poor guy a couple of seats down, at the intermission, was overheard saying "well, I hope the second act is a little happier" lol i was thinking, good luck with that, chum!

I told Mama S. i was worried about how "operatic" it would be, with so much complex dialogue and not a Verdian aria in sight - really, it was recitative from beginning to end, and now I know what the term really means! Although I'm not sure I could do any better job of defining it than anyone else. Well, it was great. I think at least in this case having all the statements musical - that is, the difference between opera and spoken theater - was that it added a layer of ritual to the whole thing. That probably sounds weird - what has ritual to do with music? I don't know, that's just how it felt.

And that immense cross on stage through the whole production - just perfect. I remember in Maria Stuarda the director made a point of having done the whole opera on the scaffold - but in the movie theater as I was, I don't know how (or if) he communicated that to the audience. There was no question about the purpose or usefulness of the cross in Dexter's production. And thank god, it wasn't the ranting, roaring, our savior, our redeemer stuff that Parsifal suffers so much from. The focus was on god, which is a lot easier for most people to take, I think. At least it is for me.

And the ending - I believe that at one point they must have built a real guillotine and executed 16 watermelons, or whatever, because it sounded for all the world like they had a real guillotine going backstage. Every stroke was different. It was awesome and scary. (I always wanted a real guillotine, when I was a kid. Does that make me weird? I thought not. Thank you for your support.)

Whew. Well, as far as I'm concerned, they can use these same sets for the NEXT thirty years. They haven't aged a day and they're great.


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

Nice review Greg. Sounds great Another reason why I am peeved at the Met's Live in HD's programming decision. I would have loved to have seen this. Instead of which we got a boring Aida again, not even a new production, a revival of a very old Francesca da Rimini, and a Giulio Cesare which is freely on DVD (and YouTube) with a better cast. Grrrrr,


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

guythegreg said:


> last tik of the season ... it was great. This one is going in the "Better than Wonderful" column, and I'm wondering why they don't do it every year like they do La Boheme. Well, it must not be as popular. Duh.
> 
> I was wondering before the show just how "minimalist" it was going to be - I know the director, Dexter, was hired at least partly because of his skill in cutting expenses and still putting on great shows - and the answer was, minimalism for this show anyway means a tool for bringing out the drama. There really was very little in the way of stage or sets at any point, but what was there just focused all your attention on what was going on, and didn't distract you into thinking "oh, the director is making a point of being Minimalist" - not at all.
> 
> ...


This is THE one opera I can think of which does not leave one at all aglow with the catharsis of traditional tragedy!

I too, first wondered about all the recitative, but then, not long into it, the overall effect is of the complete uncertainty and general high anxiety consistent with the historic time - both libretto and music mirroring that, communicating it more than perfectly.

And setting, well, it is in a nunnery, no? For a staging to 'operatic dress that up' would be tantamount to a joke.

The only 'show' I've ever attended where a group of about four adults, after applauding, left the theater in silence, walked for about fifteen minutes (the 'where shall we go out after the show' routine) also in silence, until one of us uttered, quietly, "Wow."

Orchestration, and a straight ahead cymbal roll with a quick cut-off = Guillotine, and is a stroke (bad unintended pun) of true musical and theatrical genius.

Glad you had a 'great grim' time


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## waldvogel (Jul 10, 2011)

I'll be seeing Dialogue of the Carmelites in a Robert Carsen production next Wednesday in Toronto. Looking forward to it!


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

waldvogel said:


> I'll be seeing Dialogue of the Carmelites in a Robert Carsen production next Wednesday in Toronto. Looking forward to it!


I've got a Robert Carsen production on DVD. I wonder if the ending will be staged the same way - won't say anything now in case it is, as I don't want to spoil it, but wow it's effective. Report back.


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## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

mamascarlatti said:


> Nice review Greg. Sounds great Another reason why I am peeved at the Met's Live in HD's programming decision. I would have loved to have seen this. Instead of which we got a boring Aida again, not even a new production, a revival of a very old Francesca da Rimini, and a Giulio Cesare which is freely on DVD (and YouTube) with a better cast. Grrrrr,


Oh I know. This one they should have shared with the world. There was no real stage magic to lose in translation, there were no tricks, it was straightforward. But surely you can get it - at least in some performance, if not this one, on the online Met service, no?


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## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

PetrB said:


> This is THE one opera I can think of which does not leave one at all aglow with the catharsis of traditional tragedy!
> 
> I too, first wondered about all the recitative, but then, not long into it, the overall effect is of the complete uncertainty and general high anxiety consistent with the historic time - both libretto and music mirroring that, communicating it more than perfectly.
> 
> ...


Are you serious? That was not a recorded guillotine? LOL oh gosh. Well, it was effective. Glad you enjoyed it maybe even more than I did.

PS there was a story in the paper today about a kid surfing in Florida who got his leg munched by a shark and commented that the whole experience was "pretty cool." Sounds like a future opera fan to me.


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## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

waldvogel said:


> I'll be seeing Dialogue of the Carmelites in a Robert Carsen production next Wednesday in Toronto. Looking forward to it!


And WE look forward to hearing about it! please do keep us updated.


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## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

PetrB said:


> I too, first wondered about all the recitative, but then, not long into it, the overall effect is of the complete uncertainty and general high anxiety consistent with the historic time - both libretto and music mirroring that, communicating it more than perfectly.


Yes - well said. I didn't think of that but with the all-recitative format, you simply cannot relax and let the music slip by. Uncertainty, anxiety, yes. Honestly, now that I'm listening to Parsifal, I see it does the same thing, actually.



> And setting, well, it is in a nunnery, no? For a staging to 'operatic dress that up' would be tantamount to a joke.


Hmm - but I'm sure you can imagine what Zeffirelli would have done with it!


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## Cavaradossi (Aug 2, 2012)

I listened to most of it on the radio. Yes, sound of the guillotine was chillingly rendered. The erratic way that Poulenc paced them, with some in steady unrelenting succession, then pauses for stage action, then a resumption, lends a gut wrenching immediacy and drives home the reality of the individuals involved. 

I saw the Robert Carsen production here in 2007. As I recall, like a few other other of his productions (Onegin, Orfeo) the sets were minimalist almost to the point of non-existence, but the costumes were very historically specific. The effect was a strong focus on the characters and the drama that this opera requires, nay demands - a powerful production.


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

guythegreg said:


> *Are you serious? That was not a recorded guillotine?*


Yep, done entirely by orchestral means.


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

guythegreg said:


> Hmm - but I'm sure you can imagine what Zeffirelli would have done with it!


Oh, it might still be 'spartan plain' but that would be a _very stylish_ 'spartan - plain'


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## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

Cavaradossi said:


> I listened to most of it on the radio. Yes, sound of the guillotine was chillingly rendered. The erratic way that Poulenc paced them, with some in steady unrelenting succession, then pauses for stage action, then a resumption, lends a gut wrenching immediacy and drives home the reality of the individuals involved.
> 
> I saw the Robert Carsen production here in 2007. As I recall, like a few other other of his productions (Onegin, Orfeo) the sets were minimalist almost to the point of non-existence, but the costumes were very historically specific. The effect was a strong focus on the characters and the drama that this opera requires, nay demands - a powerful production.


lol i was going to say i couldn't imagine enjoying it just listening that much ... but just an hour ago i put it on my list of cds to buy, so obviously i CAN imagine it! Wonder if that's the same Carsen production that mamas. has on DVD ... have to look into that as well. Minimalism is a requirement with this opera, I guess ...


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## TxllxT (Mar 2, 2011)

My favourite version of the opera. The chilling chopping of the guillotine really cuts through the brain. Great singers, great overall performance, nice recording.
The writer George Bernanos can be recommended on his own behalf.


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

guythegreg said:


> Oh I know. This one they should have shared with the world. There was no real stage magic to lose in translation, there were no tricks, it was straightforward. But surely you can get it - at least in some performance, if not this one, on the online Met service, no?


Oh, as you know I have it DVD. But it will never be given live in NZ, and HD is the next best thing to live.


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

TxllxT said:


> My favourite version of the opera. The chilling chopping of the guillotine really cuts through the brain. Great singers, great overall performance, nice recording.
> The writer George Bernanos can be recommended on his own behalf.


I'd listen to Regine Crespin sing just about anything


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## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

TxllxT said:


> My favourite version of the opera. The chilling chopping of the guillotine really cuts through the brain. Great singers, great overall performance, nice recording.
> The writer George Bernanos can be recommended on his own behalf.


Thanks for the recommendation. I've heard so much ABOUT regine crespin and never actually heard her ... I guess it's time, eh?


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## waldvogel (Jul 10, 2011)

We were at the Toronto opening of Dialogue of the Carmelites on Wednesday, and it's taken me this long to be able to write something semi-coherently about it. 

First of all, I hadn't heard a note of it, other than the brief excerpt that we got whenever we went to the COC's website. Everything that I had heard from Poulenc had made me think of him as a clever, ironic composer of tuneful chansons and quirky piano pieces, sort of "Ravel Light" or "Son of Satie". The music that I heard was the work of a master - the melody and orchestration were superb. The vocal writing was crystal-clear - I could understand most of the French without using the surtitles, which is quite an accomplishment for me, who normally needs surtitles to understand the words in Peter Grimes or Dido and Aeneas.

Carsen's production was minimalist. I normally abhor blank stages - they usually represent one major trait to me, which is "how can we do this opera as cheaply as possible?" In this opera, most of the scenes are set in the convent or the prison, both of which are bleak environments, and the minimalist staging worked. The lighting was magical, and it needed to be since much of the opera was set in near darkness with sixteen women wearing identical outfits. The lighting was arranged to be different for Blanche, the second Prioress, Marie, and Constance, and it made it easier to identify the singer and seemed to help delineate their differing personalities. 

Judith Forst, now almost 70 years old, played the first Prioress. She was magnificent, having that rare ability to go from powerful to frail to raving mad as the music demanded. Her death just before the intermission left us all speechless. In the second act, the second Prioress (Adrienne Pieczonka) and Blanche (Isabelle Bayrakdarian) were both wonderful. 

A few details of the staging - to portray Blanche's family chateau on a blank stage, Carsen used about 100 supernumeraries dressed in rags to show how the revolution was encroaching onto their estate. They slowly moved into the marquis' space, leaving only one small square not in their grasp. The supers also did most of the prop installation and removal, and scenes changed as one set of characters disappeared into the mob, with another set emerging. Although my description might sound cliched, the effect was chilling. 

The final scene had no guillotine. Each death, announced by a SWOOSH in the percussion and one less voice singing the Salve Regina, was followed by the singer slowly sinking to the ground and lying there in the shape of a cross. The effect was shattering. 

I take it that this is the same production that premiered in Amsterdam in 1997 and was most recently played in Chicago in 2007. Carsen is a Toronto native, and he and the set designer were at the opening. They were called up after the principals had taken their bows - luckily our programme had their photos - and were greeted with terrific applause.


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

waldvogel said:


> I take it that this is the same production that premiered in Amsterdam in 1997 and was most recently played in Chicago in 2007.


I think it is the same as this one:












> The final scene had no guillotine. Each death, announced by a SWOOSH in the percussion and one less voice singing the Salve Regina, was followed by the singer slowly sinking to the ground and lying there in the shape of a cross. The effect was shattering.


Oh yes, that final scene, amazingly effective. I'll never forget the impact it made on me just on DVD, so I can imagine it must have been electrifying in the theatre.


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## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

Gosh, it sounds absolutely AMAZING. Thanks so much for sharing!


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

I don't see any other threads on this opera and since it is my latest operatic pursuit, I'll bring the thread back up. Here is a great introductory video:


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

Several things:
First of all, I cannot speak for all productions, but many use a paper cutter backstage sitting next to a full sound microphone for the guillotine.

It was the wish of the genius Poulenc to stage the opera in the language of the country in which it was performing. Some break that request. The Met a few years ago used the French language and it was extremely effective.

The music is absolutely mesmerizing and after that desperate final note from the orchestra there has usually been complete silence from the audience for a few seconds while they tried to catch their breath and then suddenly a thunderous roar of applause.
It is a powerful piece that stays with you days afterward.
It is a rare masterpiece.


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## MAS (Apr 15, 2015)

I didn’t like Carsen’s staging with the nuns falling at the sound of the guillotine. John Dexter’s* production had them walking off stage, still singing and stopping just after the sound of the guillotine, so the number of nuns were slowly diminishing in voice and person, until Blanche was alone on the empty stage and the lone voice, singing while walking offstage, and....swoosh! Silence.
The “swoosh” sound is, of course, written into the score.
This final scene just had an enormous cross painted on the floor, very effective. 

*Metropolitan opera, 1970s


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

The best of the best (I was there!):
https://www.nytimes.com/2002/12/16/...lotine-cannot-blur-poulenc-s-soft-sounds.html


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

I've seen the opera twice (but in the same production), at La Scala and Covent Garden (the Robert Carsen production).

I think it a good production, although I have nothing to compare it to.

In any case the opera is a masterpiece and I am reading the play at the moment.

N.


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## VitellioScarpia (Aug 27, 2017)

nina foresti said:


> The best of the best (I was there!):
> https://www.nytimes.com/2002/12/16/...lotine-cannot-blur-poulenc-s-soft-sounds.html


I first saw the Dialogues of the Carmelites at the Met in 1987 and it was in English per Poulenc's wishes in John Dexter's sensational production. This production unveiled in 1977 is for me one of the greatest I have ever seen. The theater goes completely dark and before the music starts, this is the image suddenly revealed to the audience. At the end of the opera, the empty white cross on the floor is all that it is left. 








Régine Crespin sang Mme. de Croissy in English and she was amazing with the clearest English diction of a largely American cast. Manuel Rosenthal conducted superbly, Jessye Norman was Lidoine, Ewing was Blanche, and Quivar Mother Marie. I also saw a later revival -- also in English -- with Nagano conducting, Upshaw as Blanche, Stratas as Lidoine, Quivar as Mother Marie and Dernesch (yes, Helga) as Croissy. As I said above, I think that this production is the one of the greatest I have seen of any opera.


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

Vitellio:
Color me purple with envy.
I would have given a lot to be there. Lucky you.


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## VitellioScarpia (Aug 27, 2017)

nina foresti said:


> Vitellio:
> Color me purple with envy.
> I would have given a lot to be there. Lucky you.


Hi Nina, 
It is not my intent to boast about it. I just wanted to share the vividness of the impact that both the opera and the production had on me when I saw it. There was a telecast of the 1987 production but unfortunately the Met has not released it commercially. I wish they did. I had recorded it on a video tape but it is long worn...


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

Prepare yourself:


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

nina foresti said:


> Prepare yourself:


Awesome! I don't suppose that performance can be had on full length video anywhere.


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## VitellioScarpia (Aug 27, 2017)

SixFootScowl said:


> Awesome! I don't suppose that performance can be had on full length video anywhere.


I have not found it anywhere...


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## schigolch (Jun 26, 2011)

I think you can watch the full video of the MET performance mentioned here. Please delete the link if not allowed by the ToS:

https://www.operaonvideo.com/dialogues-des-carmelites-met-1987-norman-ewing-crespin/


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

My sincere gratitude to you. This is a masterpiece by a true genius.


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## VitellioScarpia (Aug 27, 2017)

schigolch said:


> I think you can watch the full video of the MET performance mentioned here. Please delete the link if not allowed by the ToS:
> 
> https://www.operaonvideo.com/dialogues-des-carmelites-met-1987-norman-ewing-crespin/


I get a "playback error" every time I tried playing it. Do you have any suggestion?


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## John Zito (Sep 11, 2021)

Houston Grand Opera is currently doing _Dialogues des Carmélites_ for the first time in 30+ years, and I attended a matinee this afternoon. I had previously heard choice bits like the "Ave Maria" and the "Salve Regina," and I knew the premise in the most general terms, but I was otherwise uninitiated.

I enjoyed the experience overall, and the performances were uniformly fine, but I did not like the production. There were several small things along the way that I didn't think worked, but then it all came to a head in the final scene. On the verge of the execution, everything was in place to get me to cry; all they had to do was stick the landing. But what followed completely fell flat. The scene was awkwardly composed on the stage, it didn't feel monumental enough, the guillotine sound effect was not loud and brutal enough. There was just not _enough_ of anything. It was nowhere near the emotional apocalypse it should have been. It was just...rather dull. This is what it looked like:








(screenshot from HGO's promotional materials; not an audience photo)

The guillotine platform was inside this rotating wall that moved throughout the show to create different environments, and I guess the positioning of that thing necessitated shoving the sisters off to the side, leaving plenty of real estate for the cast of Les Miz to grimace and rattle their sabres. Like I said, I was all set to be devastated by this moment, but it didn't deliver.

Having said that, I relished the opportunity to become better acquainted with the work as a whole. I'm hardly an opera person, but I love French music, and I left the theater eager to hear the score again.


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