# Tristan and Isolde Prelude... discuss.



## JamieHoldham (May 13, 2016)

A topic everyone has briefly talked about before but I don't think it has ever had a thread to itself - which it really deserves. The prelude to Tristan and Isolde is a groundbreaking work, with the Tristan chord, the extreme harmonic buildup, tension and release into false chords that seemingly lead nowhere, and only until the last act of the opera is resolved.

Personally I want to talk about the raw emotion I feel - and ask everyone else what they feel when they listen to this Prelude?

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For me the beginning of the piece has a sense of dragging, and "longing" as the first motif suggets. As it plays for the 2nd and 3rd time, getting longer and longer, dragging on and on it eventually leads to the end of the motif appearing on its own in the violins and woodwinds, answering back at each other pointing towards a tension just itching to be resolved, then the full orchestra comes out in full playing forte with the French Horns crying upwards, and resting on F.

After this the buildup begins quitely in the strings, with the main theme in the Cellos, all ascending upwards in a buildup of tension only to go back down, and up and down, crescendoing and going quieter, at this point without a sense of where I am musically or going (key wise) it gives me a sense of lonelyness and overall a wanting for the resolve to finally end, or death to come, as the opera ends on such a note.

And eventually the piece reaches the point where the string section takes it in turns to have a very fast ascending scales in 32nd notes & descending parts in the Woodwinds and Horns gives me a even stronger sense of love and longing, which the first motif was suggesting, and it continues building up and up, from piano to a massive climax at a fortissimo just when you think it might finally end, it doesn't.. as the piece quickly goes quieter and starts repeating the 1st and 2nd motif in all of the instrumentation in succesion, which Wagner as I haven't mentioned yet, does with absolute mastery, like a magician blends different instruments together and makes the most wonderful sounds, and as the piece nears its end, a last cry in the Violas in the high C, resting on B afterwards..

The part that always give me a powerful feeling of dread, and after this the motif leading into the tristan chord again repeats, in the English horn, then Oboe, Bassoon and finally the Clarinet.. finally leading into the last bars played on Cellos, going from G, Ab, G, Eb, B natural, F, Ab and finally a held note on G.. into two last pizzicato notes on the same low G. The timbre of the Cellos and the following chord progression give me quite a haunting sense of what is to come, or what is no more...

And that's my personal evaluation, how I feel about the piece, which is a masterpeice and one of the pinnacles of western Romantic music. Below I want to share a video of a performance also with the full score which I think may be the only video of this type of this specific piece of music on Youtube, as the score is invaluable to see I find, and hopefully others find it of interest too.


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## Norma Skock (Mar 18, 2017)

It took music to a whole new, transcendental level.


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## JamieHoldham (May 13, 2016)

Norma Skock said:


> It took music to a whole new, transcendental level.


Thats a simple way of putting it, thanks for TL;DRing my thread :lol:


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

A theoretical note: The Tristan chord is just an augmented 6th chord with an appoggiatura. It always goes where it is supposed to go and where it has gone since Bach: to the dominant. The fact that the dominants don't resolve doesn't make the piece any less tonal. The fact that they are felt as unresolved dominants might, in fact, be interpreted as in itself a strong affirmation of tonality. One should remember that at this same time there were whole operatic scenes being composed in a whole tone scale and symmetrical divisions of the octave based on third cycles.


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## Norma Skock (Mar 18, 2017)

EdwardBast said:


> A theoretical note: The Tristan chord is just an augmented 6th chord with an appoggiatura. It always goes where it is supposed to go and where it has gone since Bach: to the dominant. The fact that the dominants don't resolve doesn't make the piece any less tonal. The fact that they are felt as unresolved dominants might, in fact, be interpreted as in itself a strong affirmation of tonality. One should remember that at this same time there were whole operatic scenes being composed in a whole tone scale and symmetrical divisions of the octave based on third cycles.


And yet Tristan had a far greater impact than whole tone scale operas.


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## Omicron9 (Oct 13, 2016)

Yep. There are many times wherein I've set out to listen to the entire T&I opera; yet keep hitting the < button to re-listen to the overture. Repeatedly. So many times in fact that I rarely get to the entire opera. 

-09


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## Magnum Miserium (Aug 15, 2016)

18 great measures, then a lot of padding until the actual opera starts, which is a vastly greater work than the prelude but gets like 1/100th as many listens because people are scared of classical singing.


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## Norma Skock (Mar 18, 2017)

Magnum Miserium said:


> 18 great measures, then a lot of padding until the actual opera starts, which is a vastly greater work than the prelude but gets like 1/100th as many listens because people are scared of classical singing.


It is an incredible work, witnessing this piece live is a life-changing experience. It will utterly reduce you to tears by the end.


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## Magnum Miserium (Aug 15, 2016)

Norma Skock said:


> It is an incredible work, witnessing this piece live is a life-changing experience.


Doubtless true, if you can find an adequate tenor and a director who doesn't put everybody in gimp suits, but does either exist right now?


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

Norma Skock said:


> And yet Tristan had a far greater impact than whole tone scale operas.


The impact of Tristan isn't at issue. I addressed the question of exactly how earth shattering the Tristan chord is in theoretical terms (not very) with the intention of deflating the hackneyed claim that it was a doorway to atonality. Yes, Tristan is, IMO, a much better and more satisfying work than Dargomizhsky's _Stone Guest_. Frankly, I'm surprised you know Dargomizhsky well enough to give an opinion. Well done!


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## Norma Skock (Mar 18, 2017)

EdwardBast said:


> The impact of Tristan isn't at issue. I addressed the question of exactly how earth shattering the Tristan chord is in theoretical terms (not very) with the intention of deflating the hackneyed claim that it was a doorway to atonality. Yes, Tristan is, IMO, a much better and more satisfying work than Dargomizhsky's _Stone Guest_. Frankly, I'm surprised you know Dargomizhsky well enough to give an opinion. Well done!


I didn't know Dargomizhsky, because there's not much worth knowing. I do, however, know Tristan und Isolde, the opera that changed music forever.


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

Magnum Miserium said:


> 18 great measures, then a lot of padding until the actual opera starts, which is a vastly greater work than the prelude but gets like 1/100th as many listens because people are scared of classical singing.


I always thought the prelude was an integral part of the "actual opera" and it seems odd to set the opera to biting its own foot. I am beginning to suspect you might be a very naughty contrarian.


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## Fugue Meister (Jul 5, 2014)

Fugue Meister said:


> Well not to be too contrary but EdwardBast's posts are (for the most part) thoughtful and with a firm grasp on what he speaks.. as provoking as his comments may be.


I submit this opinion respectfully, it is not meant to be joining sides, just another observation.


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## jailhouse (Sep 2, 2016)

EdwardBast said:


> That resolving augmented 6th chords to dominants, as Wagner does in the opening of Tristan, is a normal tonal progression?


You're missing why the "tristan chord" is so important. Yes, resolving in the way it does is not completely out of the question. What WAS never done before was that he did ANOTHER augmented 6th resolving to anonther dissonance directly following it and didn't resolve to the tonic for like 4+ hours of opera. He resolved literally on the last chord of the work. THATS why it was so influential


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

jailhouse said:


> You're missing why the "tristan chord" is so important. Yes, resolving in the way it does is not completely out of the question. What WAS never done before was that he did ANOTHER augmented 6th resolving to anonther dissonance directly following it and didn't resolve to the tonic for like 4+ hours of opera. He resolved literally on the last chord of the work. THATS why it was so influential


Who ever said Tristan wasn't influential? Or important? Not me. I was only questioning whether or to what extent the clearly tonal progressions of its prelude presage atonality. Personally, I don't see that the value or greatness of the work depends in any way on how well it can be employed in supporting narratives about the evolution of musical language. It is intrinsically great in its internal relations and content. IMO. 

By the way, if your observation about delayed resolution over 4+ hours is apt, then you are supporting my point. That would be tonality functioning on a very high and global scale, wouldn't it?


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## Krummhorn (Feb 18, 2007)

Temporarily closed for repairs. 


Repairs completed ... problem resolved. Sorry for the interruption in the thread discussion. Please continue :tiphat:


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## MarkW (Feb 16, 2015)

The prelude is in A. (Not to take anyhing away froma beautiful and ground breaking opera.)


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## arnerich (Aug 19, 2016)

It's not my cup of tea


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## Magnum Miserium (Aug 15, 2016)

EdwardBast said:


> I always thought the prelude was an integral part of the "actual opera" and it seems odd to set the opera to biting its own foot. I am beginning to suspect you might be a very naughty contrarian.


Saying the opera is a greater work than the prelude could only be "contrarian" if the conventional wisdom were the other way around, which it isn't. There's just a lot of people who get excited about the prelude and don't know the opera, period.

Anyway, Shaw got called "contrarian" too when he obviously wasn't, and I'm sure not going to be able to stop that if he wasn't, but I'm not going to endorse it either, by silence or otherwise, so: whatever you want to tell yourself, I mean everything I say.


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

Magnum Miserium said:


> Saying the opera is a greater work than the prelude could only be "contrarian" if the conventional wisdom were the other way around, which it isn't. There's just a lot of people who get excited about the prelude and don't know the opera, period.
> 
> Anyway, Shaw got called "contrarian" too when he obviously wasn't, and I'm sure not going to be able to stop that if he wasn't, but I'm not going to endorse it either, by silence or otherwise, so: whatever you want to tell yourself, I mean everything I say.


No, no, I understood what you were doing. A similar impulse was behind my poke at the mythology of the Tristan chord and the way it is invoked like some holy talisman. That mythology is part of the reason why all music students know the prelude without necessarily knowing the opera. In any case, I wasn't suggesting you were insincere. Far from it. I was just noticing the frequency with which you end up arguing positions others hereabouts don't consider.


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## Orfeo (Nov 14, 2013)

Norma Skock said:


> I didn't know Dargomizhsky, because there's not much worth knowing. I do, however, know Tristan und Isolde, the opera that changed music forever.


I must interject here.

Dargomyzhsky is well worth knowing. He is widely known for being the salient link (along with Serov, although to a lesser extent) between Glinka and the Russian Five as well as Tchaikovsky. And while Tchaikovsky was critical of his work, Mussorgsky saw the intrinsic value of it, in its combining music with realism (in "Rusalka", Dargomyzhsky experimented with the radical realist aesthetic he was later to develop in "The Stone Guest", in which his vocal writing attempted to mimic speech). Needless to say, Mussorgsky was influenced by him, and even Verdi, as noted also, who studied "The Stone Guest" when composing "Falstaff." Others may have been influenced by what Dargomyzhsky was attempting as well, like Janacek and perhaps Merikanto in "Juha."

I am convinced more than ever that he is more than a historical figure; his music is both intriguing and often fascinating and compelling. I would try his operas if I am you (and also his songs, which is highly valued).


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## Magnum Miserium (Aug 15, 2016)

EdwardBast said:


> No, no, I understood what you were doing. A similar impulse was behind my poke at the mythology of the Tristan chord and the way it is invoked like some holy talisman. That mythology is part of the reason why all music students know the prelude without necessarily knowing the opera. In any case, I wasn't suggesting you were insincere. Far from it. I was just noticing the frequency with which you end up arguing positions others hereabouts don't consider.


Ah. Very sorry for misunderstanding.


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## Magnum Miserium (Aug 15, 2016)

Norma Skock said:


> And yet Tristan had a far greater impact than whole tone scale operas.


Doubtful. Whole tone scale operas lead to Debussy and, relatedly, Schubert and Liszt extrapolated the octatonic scale from the whole tone scale, which leads through Rimsky Korsakov to Stravinsky.


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