# Who's your favourite bel canto composer?



## jhar26 (Jul 6, 2008)

Just for fun.


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## Aramis (Mar 1, 2009)

Probably Bellini - I really dislike entertaining bel canto kind of opera with comic plots, "graceful" and bluff arias, it's not my kind of music drama, for me it's like low art inside of high art ie. classical music. 

But just like I can't stand Rossini and other barbers of seville, I happen to like some music by Bellini. It links better side of this Italian school of opera with things that I find valueable. 

So Bellini is my favourite bel canto composer and the only one that I actually like.


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## jhar26 (Jul 6, 2008)

I both agree and disagree. I love the bel canto operas with comic plots. Not all music should make you want to jump of the nearest bridge in my view. Nothing wrong with fun for fun's sake every now and then. BTW - Rossini has also composed 'serious' operas, none of which I've yet heard though. But I've never heard or seen a Rossini opera where I thought after it was finished, "boy, that was boring."

Bellini is dramatically the best of them in my opinion. The music always helps to express the textual and emotional content of whatever is going on. Even the spectacular coloratura arias are always well integrated into the drama. That probably also explains why Wagner admired Bellini.


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

Donizetti for me. He is the king of melody. And the objection Aramis introduced regarding opera buffa doesn't apply to his masterpieces _Lucia di Lammermoor_ (can't get any more dramatic and serious than that) and _Roberto Devereux_. And even though people may be turned off by the silly plot of _L'Elisir d'Amore_, again, the music is so sublime - think _Una furtiva lagrima_ - that it more than compensates for it.

Rossini can be quite spectacular and is surely entertaining, but the problem with hearing too many of his operas is that they start to sound exactly the same. He was a businessman, found a winning formula, made money with it, and kept repeating it because that's what the paying customers wanted. Case in point: _La Cenerentola_ has an aria that sounds just like the _Largo al factotum. _He also kept canibalizing his operas, reusing overtures and large chunks of acts and so forth. He was into fast and lucrative production. Nothing wrong with that, more power to him; for a change a great composer wasn't the typically disturbed, troubled, suicidal genius, but rather a pragmatic person who wanted to make a good living (Richard Strauss is another example). But what I'm saying is that once you start exploring more of his operas, you start to notice the patterns and they become less intriguing.

Bellini is very good too, and I love _Norma_. I find _I Puritani_'s music quite beautiful in spite of the eventless libretto.

The bottom line is that I love bel canto, and therefore like all three of its major representatives, but Donizetti for me is the very definition of bel canto so if I were the sole judge he'd take the prize.


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

Aramis said:


> Probably Bellini - I really dislike entertaining bel canto kind of opera with comic plots, "graceful" and bluff arias, it's not my kind of music drama, for me it's like low art inside of high art ie. classical music.
> 
> But just like I can't stand Rossini and other barbers of seville, I happen to like some music by Bellini. It links better side of this Italian school of opera with things that I find valueable.
> 
> So Bellini is my favourite bel canto composer and the only one that I actually like.


But Aramis, if you'd allow me, I'd say that you are mixing up two aspects here, no offense intended. Bel canto doesn't necessarily have comic plots. Wouldn't you call _Lucia di Lammermmoor_ drama? Bel canto refers to the melodious style of the vocal music with a prominence of coloratura, but many bel canto operas are quite dramatic.


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

Well, call me lowbrow, but I love Donizetti's comic operas. Life is depressing enough already (earthquakes, floods, wars, job losses etc etc) without having to spend your whole time listening to gloomy music (although I like that too). And a steady diet of harrowing operas needs relieving. I sometimes think I just can't bear another one where everyone ends up dead.


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## Aramis (Mar 1, 2009)

Almaviva said:


> But Aramis, if you'd allow me, I'd say that you are mixing up two aspects here, no offense intended. Bel canto doesn't necessarily have comic plots. Wouldn't you call _Lucia di Lammermmoor_ drama? Bel canto refers to the melodious style of the vocal music with a prominence of coloratura, but many bel canto operas are quite dramatic.


Yes, I know this, it was shorthand. I know that Rossini wrote serious operas - but it was still Rossini.

The theory and idea of bel canto, that is: virtuosity of voice and stuff is totally okay with me, but I know from listening that almost all famous bel canto operas are written in very entertaining manner and this genre is where all opera stereotypes that I hate come from.


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## jhar26 (Jul 6, 2008)

Almaviva said:


> The bottom line is that I love bel canto, and therefore like all three of its major representatives, but Donizetti for me is the very definition of bel canto so if I were the sole judge he'd take the prize.


Of the three I'm the least familiar with Donizetti's work and the most with Bellini's. I've only heard four of Donizetti's operas.

BTW - when talking about bel canto it's always about the big three, but are there also any other contemporary representatives of the genre who aren't as well known, but who's work it's worth checking out?

Just a thought about Rossini: That guy wrote so many operas in such a short space of time that it's almost inevitable that he had to recycle some of his music. He could write decent music on automatic pilot, but it's impossible to consistently come up with GREAT music when you're always in a hurry to make that deathline, which may explain why he regularly re-used the good bits from old works.


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

jhar26 said:


> BTW - when talking about bel canto it's always about the big three, but are there also any other contemporary representatives of the genre who aren't as well known, but who's work it's worth checking out?


It depends on what definition of Bel Canto you are using, narrow or broad, related to the Italian mid-19th century opera, or related to a vocal technique. As a vocal technique (privilege of legatto, high notes done as head voice and falsetto rather than chest voice, attention to the musical phrasing, vocal agility, etc) you can say that many opera composers used this vocal model - including Handel and Mozart. It actually had its roots in the Baroque. Anything that used castrati was pretty much composed with these concepts in mind - all the way to Meyerbeer. You can also say that early Verdi continued to use Bel Canto concepts until he evolved.

But if you talk about it with a narrow definition of the kind of focus on the beautiful singing - a display case for vocal acrobatics as pretty much the whole point of the musical structure of the opera (these Bel Canto operas were conceived from the standpoint of providing a vehicle for these bravura arias which became more important than the plot itself) - which is what characterized that mid-19th century period in Italy, then you're pretty much only talking about Rossini, Donizetti, and Bellini, although there are others like Pacini and Mercadante.

Giovanni Pacini was a Sicilian composer famous for lots of cabalettas and he has 74 operas to his name. Maybe the least unknown is _Lorenzino de' Medici_ which had a libretto by Verdi collaborator Francesco Piave. His _Il Corsaro_ made it into the 21st century, as it was revived in 2004. Saverio Mercadante was also one of these prolific guys with dozens and dozens of operas (58), of which just a couple ever made it out of the 19th century, with _Elisa e Claudio_ and _Maria Stuarda, Regina di Scozia_ being the best examples.

Rather than having operas that were enduring successes, Pacini's importance for Bel Canto is that he actually influenced Bellini (who them beat him in his own game). On the other hand he himself confessedly copied Rossini's style. So he was a sort of middle man, LOL.

Other even less important Bel Canto names were Nicola Vaccai (also an influence on Bellini), Michele Carafa, Carlo Coccia, and the brothers Federico and Luigi Ricci. I'd be hard pressed to quote enduring operas from these guys.

The bottom line is, there is nobody really worthy of consideration other than the big three Rossini, Donizetti, and Bellini.


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## Sonata (Aug 7, 2010)

To add a twist for a complete newbie: What opera would you recommend as a pinnacle of achievemen for each of these three composers?

Oh, and regarding the "funny vs. serious" operas. When I started out into opera recently, I also felt that I wanted no part of funny opera. Well I was wrong, and I'm happy to say so. I found the first act of La Boheme quite enjoyable. The opening scene with Marcello and Rodolfo was so amusing, and I found myself tapping my feet along with the music. And Marriage of Figaro is a more lighthearted opera that I delved into only after I'd seen all the praise for in the "favorite opera" section.


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## jhar26 (Jul 6, 2008)

Sonata said:


> To add a twist for a complete newbie: What opera would you recommend as a pinnacle of achievemen for each of these three composers?


Il Barbiere di Siviglia for Rossini
Norma for Bellini
Lucia di Lammermoor for Donizetti


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

Sonata said:


> To add a twist for a complete newbie: What opera would you recommend as a pinnacle of achievemen for each of these three composers?
> 
> Oh, and regarding the "funny vs. serious" operas. When I started out into opera recently, I also felt that I wanted no part of funny opera. Well I was wrong, and I'm happy to say so. I found the first act of La Boheme quite enjoyable. The opening scene with Marcello and Rodolfo was so amusing, and I found myself tapping my feet along with the music. And Marriage of Figaro is a more lighthearted opera that I delved into only after I'd seen all the praise for in the "favorite opera" section.


La Bohème is quite sad at the end.
As for recommendations, the ones above are indeed the best operas by each of these three composers, and they are all three spectacular.


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## Sonata (Aug 7, 2010)

Indeed, very sad.

Thanks for the recommendations everyone. So glad I joined up on this forums. It's really expanded my opera knowledge/listening far more than I ever intended, and I'm enjoying that.


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

Sonata said:


> Indeed, very sad.
> 
> Thanks for the recommendations everyone. So glad I joined up on this forums. It's really expanded my opera knowledge/listening far more than I ever intended, and I'm enjoying that.


You're welcome, in more than one sense.
And by the way, once you are done with those top three operas, try next the number 2 opera for each of them - Rossini's La Cenerentola, Bellini's I Puritani, and Donizetti's Roberto Devereux (although some will tell you L'Elisir d'Amore or Maria Stuarda but I particularly find Roberto Devereux even better, and one of those cases of an underrated masterpiece that flies under the radar - in spite of the last 30' - oh hell, the last 60' of Maria Stuarda that are shockful of beautiful melodies).

Or else, you might want to try the number 2s first then go for the number 1s... so not to get disappointed with a drop in quality.


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

For Donizetti my favourites are actually L'Elisir d'Amore and la Fille du regiment. Melodic and light hearted.

But then I haven't yet heard Maria Stuarda or Roberto Devereux, a situation soon to be rectified as they are winging their way to me.


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

mamascarlatti said:


> For Donizetti my favourites are actually L'Elisir d'Amore and la Fille du regiment. Melodic and light hearted.
> 
> But then I haven't yet heard Maria Stuarda or Roberto Devereux, a situation soon to be rectified as they are winging their way to me.


Oops, I forgot to include La Fille du Regiment, indeed it is excellent. Roberto Devereux and Maria Stuarda however are towering achievements, very impressive, extremely melodious and rich. I think I'd still stick with Roberto Devereux as his second best opera after Lucia, but of course it's just a matter of personal preference, since these are all very good operas. I hold Lucrezia Borgia in lesser esteem as compared to these, although it is also very nice. Anna Bolena I haven't seen/heard yet.

I generally prefer drama in cinema and literature as opposed to comedy, and while I love opera buffa, etc, this may explain my preference for Lucia and Roberto over L'Elisir and La Fille. For me it's sort of the difference between enjoyable and impressive. I watch opera buffae with a smile on my face and feel like I spent a very entertaining couple of hours, but I tend to think about dramas for a lot longer and be in awe of them. This doesn't mean that I don't recognize the value of comedy and the quality of these works. It's just that I get more impressed with the others.


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

Aramis said:


> but I know from listening that almost all famous bel canto operas are written in very entertaining manner
> ...
> and this genre is where all opera stereotypes that I hate come from


Almost all? Let me quote some very dramatic and famous Bel Canto operas:

Lucia di Lammermoor
Roberto Devereux
Maria Stuarda
Anna Bolena
Lucrezia Borgia
I Puritani
Norma
Armida (Rossini's)
Otello (Rossini's)
Tancredi
I Capuleti e i Montecchi

... and many others (I'm sticking with the most famous ones).

Again, Bel Canto is not the same as comedy, it's a subgenre based on privilege of certain vocal techniques. Actually I believe in terms of famous operas, there are *more* famous serious Bel Canto operas than comedic.

---

What stereotypes are those?

I don't see anything different in Bel Canto comedies in terms of stereotypes. There are stereotypical characters in opera buffa in general but these come from the Comedia dell'Arte tradition and are not specific of the Bel Canto period at all, they precede that era. If vocal coloratura is the part you don't like, just think of the Queen of the Night - it also precedes Bel Canto. And the most commonly quoted opera stereotype - the fat lady with horns singing to the top of her lungs - belongs much more to German opera than to Bel Canto.


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## Aramis (Mar 1, 2009)

> Almost all? Let me quote some very dramatic and famous Bel Canto operas


I didn't hear all of these, but in those that I did I always find traces of light-hearted ways, especially in Rossini. What's the big difference between his Barber and Tell, except theme?

Except the Bellini, which I already confessed to like, they all had their bad habits and even works that seem to be serious and dramatic have plenty of silly, quasi-comical tunes on woodwinds and stuff.



> Again, Bel Canto is not the same as comedy, it's a subgenre based on privilege of certain vocal techniques. Actually I believe in terms of famous operas, there are *more* famous serious Bel Canto operas than comedic.


I already said that is was shorthand when I mentioned comedy.



> What stereotypes are those?


Again shorthand, if you don't mind: fat italian guy singing with low voice some infantile, merry phrases like gruff coppersmith on his way to work on sunday morning, at performance attented by rich, eccentric geezers thirsty for archaic and grotesque entertainment.


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

Aramis said:


> I didn't hear all of these, but in those that I did I always find traces of light-hearted ways, especially in Rossini. What's the big difference between his Barber and Tell, except theme?
> 
> Except the Bellini, which I already confessed to like, they all had their bad habits and even works that seem to be serious and dramatic have plenty of silly, quasi-comical tunes on woodwinds and stuff.
> 
> ...


There's a reason why I didn't quote Guillaume Tell (by the way, Rossini there was actually farther away from the Italianate style, and had already incorporated the French style and folk music, Tyrol-like. Guillaume Tell was a lot more successful in Germany, Austria, and France than in Italy).

While Rossini was indeed prone to repetition (due to the sheer number of operas he wrote and his wish to make a quick buck), there is nothing silly or quasi-comical in his Armida, for example. Donizetti's "three queens" operas have nothing silly or quasi-comical either, they are heavy dramas with lots of pathos (and sublime melody). You'd have to be more specific to convince me. Get some serious Bel Canto operas and tell me exactly what arias, duets, or ensembles you think are silly and quasi-comical.

Fat Italian guy singing: that's the performer, not the composer. In another production maybe the guy isn't fat.

Rich, eccentric geezers: that's the public, not the composer.

Grotesque? Listen to Roberto Devereux and tell me if it is grotesque. That's pure art, my friend!

Sorry if I am a little too vehement about this, no offense intended:tiphat:, it's just that I like Bel Canto a lot and you seem to be talking about it with some sweeping generalizations.

In my opinion there is nothing that is any more stereotypical or uniquely more grotesque in Bel Canto as compared to other eras and styles. Sure, you can find stuff that is stereotypical and grotesque in *some* operas composed by the three great Bel Canto composers, but so can you in the works of other composers whose operas aren't Bel Canto.

Isn't Don Giovanni a stereotypical character? Isn't much of Die Zauberflote rather silly and grotesque, especially that Papageno guy? Aren't Johann Strauss II operetas full of silly stuff? Can you get any more grotesque than Alberich and Mime? You say archaic? Listen to some Lully and you'll get plenty of archaic material.

I'm not saying that I don't like the works/composers quoted in the above paragraph, I do (I love Mozart, Wagner, and Strauss II, and while I'm not especially fond of him, I don't dislike Lully either). I'm just saying that trying to single out Bel Canto for any of these things you see as flaws (I don't) doesn't pay, since they are everywhere in the field of opera and Bel Canto doesn't have any more or any less of this stuff.

Sometimes (again, no offense intended) it seems to me that you seriously need to listen to some more Bel Canto. You may change your opinion, then. Just the way you say it - "except Bellini" - hints at this, because, well, Bellini is one of the three, so, there you go, you already like one third of Bel Canto.:lol: A friendly piece of advice (I mean it, even though I may appear adversarial, it *is* friendly advice): Listen to more Donizetti. Most of his operas are serious, and his big hits are just as good as Bellini's big hits. If then you like him, there you go again, you'll have liked two thirds of Bel Canto, leaving just Rossini out (who did engage in more of what you've been complaining about).

I think, based on what you've been saying, that what you don't like is low brow opera buffa, not necessarily Bel Canto.


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## Aramis (Mar 1, 2009)

> Sorry if I am a little too vehement about this, no offense intended, it's just that I like Bel Canto a lot and you seem to be talking about it with some sweeping generalizations.


Because it is generalisation, I know only most important works and never explored deeper since I disliked what I've heard. Donizetti's Elixir pushed me away from his music for good. Same with Rossini, I would have to struggle a lot to force myself and listen to more than I already did.

But I think I'll check out Roberto D. by Gaetano D, it may both change my mind and close it for bel canto for good.



> . You'd have to be more specific to convince me.


Let's take famous scene from Lucia di Laoaooaoroaoraoaom. The whole concept for this aria is very original, many parts of it are brilliant but at the other hand there are many mannered moments. I know that she is mad and it can be said that these winds somewhere in second half of scene are expressing her madness but it doesn't convice me.



> Isn't Don Giovanni a stereotypical character? Isn't much of Die Zauberflote rather silly and grotesque, especially that Papageno guy? Aren't Johann Strauss II operetas full of silly stuff?


Dunno, me is not great fan of Mozart's operas and especially Johan Strauss, his music is more historical pop music than real classical to me.


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

You know, I'm not the biggest fan of _L'Elisir d'Amore_ myself. The aria _Una furtiva lagrima_ is very beautiful (especially by Gigli or di Stefano) but the opera itself is not really my preferred Donizetti. I don't think you should give a composer just one shot. If you haven't heard his more serious work, give him another chance. You said you will, and I look forward to reading to your reaction to _Roberto Devereux_ which I find a very, very beautiful opera. But try to approach it with an open mind, without being influenced by this discussion or your opinion of _L'Elisir d'Amore. _If you don't like _Roberto Devereux_ it does mean you don't like Bel Canto, period (because it is such a prime example), and there's nothing wrong with it, each classical music lover has his/her own preferences and dislikes. I just wish you'll give Bel Canto a better chance than just being turned off by the comedic aspects which apparently you don't like. All that I'm saying is that Bel Canto is a lot more than that. If you don't like it, so be it, but if you haven't experienced all of it or at least this other very important aspect of it, then you may be judging it prematurely.

Lucia's mad scene is better watched than heard. When you get a really good actress to portray it, the coloratura bursts appear much more dramatic than when you hear it. The entire scene is very disturbing, with Lucia all covered in blood, and with the people surrounding her looking shocked, expressing both pity and disgust.

About Mozart and Strauss II, I was just using them as examples, I didn't imply you should or should not like them (that's up to you), I was just saying that other respected composers have engaged in stereotypes and silly stuff as well, that this is not a prerogative of Bel Canto.


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## DarkAngel (Aug 11, 2010)

*I voted for Donnizetti* *because overall quality and size of his portfolio of work......*
Composed 70+ operas although only a few still routinely performed today. Also almost equally effective with dramatic opera and light comedies, very balanced and complete portfolio with great works in both catagories

*Bellini has only relatively small number of operas* 
but inludes the greatest bel canto challenge of a soprano assoluta......Norma!

*Rossini has an endless number of wonderful orchestral melodies*
Mostly known for his light comedies, but has large body of work with serious dramas like Armida and Semiramide. The opera overtures are justly famous for thier wonderful inventive melody and are great works themselves, I can listen to his music anytime but he does "borrow" from previous works to make new ones (which is fine by me)


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

DarkAngel said:


> *I voted for Donnizetti* *because overall quality and size of his portfolio of work......*
> Composed 70+ operas although only a few still routinely performed today. Also almost equally effective with dramatic opera and light comedies, very balanced and complete portfolio with great works in both catagories
> 
> *Bellini has only relatively small number of operas*
> ...


Yay, Donizetti is winning! Your opinion matches mine to perfection, I'd say exactly the same things about these three.:tiphat:


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## Il Seraglio (Sep 14, 2009)

I love all three of them. I voted for Donizetti on a whim, but now I'm not so sure. Sure, maybe you could call bel canto low art within high art, but that doesn't make it middlebrow. They all wrote beautiful music that just happened to be in a more lighthearted context. I love the unique vocal acrobatics of Rossini's operas and unforgettable melodies, but I also love Donizetti whose operas push great bel canto sopranos to their limit. Bellini is great too, but probably my least favourite of the three.


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

Il Seraglio said:


> I love all three of them. I voted for Donizetti on a whim, but now I'm not so sure. Sure, maybe you could call bel canto low art within high art, but that doesn't make it middlebrow. They all wrote beautiful music that just happened to be in a more lighthearted context. I love the unique vocal acrobatics of Rossini's operas and unforgettable melodies, but I also love Donizetti whose operas push great bel canto sopranos to their limit. Bellini is great too, but probably my least favourite of the three.


The trouble with holding Bellini in lesser esteem is that he wrote Norma, which in my opinion is the most beautiful of all Bel Canto operas. But you are right, in terms of volume and variety, Donizetti and Rossini get the upper hand.

I'm in a Donizetti phase, and I'm waiting in the mail for the delivery of three more from him that I have purchased - Anna Bolena, La Favorite, and Linda di Chamonix. I can't wait, but to contain costs I bought them from a discount vendor and they are slooooow to ship and travel. They should be here by October 4.


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

Almaviva said:


> .... to contain costs I bought them from a discount vendor and they are slooooow to ship and travel. They should be here by October 4.


Delayed gratification. Hate it.


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

mamascarlatti said:


> Delayed gratification. Hate it.


Hey, but the anticipation is part of the pleasure. Most good things in life are relatively hard to get...


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

276 people viewed this thread so far but only 16 felt motivated enough to vote.
It looks like Bel Canto is not in huge demand lately.


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## jhar26 (Jul 6, 2008)

Almaviva said:


> 276 people viewed this thread so far but only 16 felt motivated enough to vote.
> It looks like Bel Canto is not in huge demand lately.


276 people may have viewed this thread, but if they are not members they can't vote. There has been an audience for bel canto for almost 200 years now, and there's no reason to expect that it will change in the next 200.


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

jhar26 said:


> 276 people may have viewed this thread, but if they are not members they can't vote. There has been an audience for bel canto for almost 200 years now, and there's no reason to expect that it will change in the next 200.


Phew! I didn't know about this part.
But if people hang around here reading threads, why don't they become members?


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## DarkAngel (Aug 11, 2010)

*Speaking of Donizetti..........*
Our friends at Brilliant Classics has given me super cheap way to acquire the famous Beverly Sills three "tudor queens" from early 1970s, nice!


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

DarkAngel said:


> *Speaking of Donizetti..........*
> Our friends at Brilliant Classics has given me super cheap way to acquire the famous Beverly Sills three "tudor queens" from early 1970s, nice!


Cheap? I like the sound of that!


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## Lukecash12 (Sep 21, 2009)

Rossini, because of his work with Moses.


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## Sonata (Aug 7, 2010)

WHY do I feel the burning need to own the Turandot highlights album that I can stream for FREE on myspace? 

*sigh* I'll practice resistance now and throw it onto my Christmas wish list.


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

Sonata said:


> WHY do I feel the burning need to own the Turandot highlights album that I can stream for FREE on myspace?
> 
> *sigh* I'll practice resistance now and throw it onto my Christmas wish list.


Opera will do this to you!


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## jhar26 (Jul 6, 2008)

Almaviva said:


> The trouble with holding Bellini in lesser esteem is that he wrote Norma, which in my opinion is the most beautiful of all Bel Canto operas. But you are right, in terms of volume and variety, Donizetti and Rossini get the upper hand.


Yes, but the reason for Bellini's (relative) lack of productivity is that he liked to take his time working on an opera until it was just like he wanted it to be. He didn't like to race against the clock (even though he sometimes had to) and didn't accept as many commisions as the other two. He just made sure that he got paid very well for the projects he DID take on.


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## DarkAngel (Aug 11, 2010)

Wait how did Rossini now catch up to Donizetti.........

Voters for Rossini speak up we want to be persuaded and see the light


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

DarkAngel said:


> Wait how did Rossini now catch up to Donizetti.........
> 
> Voters for Rossini speak up we want to be persuaded and see the light


We're already seeing the light: Donizetti all the way!


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## sospiro (Apr 3, 2010)

Almaviva said:


> We're already seeing the light: Donizetti all the way!


I've already voted for Donizetti but I didn't add a comment because I don't know why I prefer him to the others.

It's a visceral thing I suppose.


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## marmaluot_45 (Sep 17, 2010)

Almaviva said:


> It depends on what definition of Bel Canto you are using, narrow or broad, related to the Italian mid-19th century opera, or related to a vocal technique. As a vocal technique (privilege of legatto, high notes done as head voice and falsetto rather than chest voice, attention to the musical phrasing, vocal agility, etc) you can say that many opera composers used this vocal model - including Handel and Mozart. It actually had its roots in the Baroque. Anything that used castrati was pretty much composed with these concepts in mind - all the way to Meyerbeer. You can also say that early Verdi continued to use Bel Canto concepts until he evolved.
> 
> .


What you says is right, but non at all.
Pardon, I'm a italian music professor, and have learnt music history for many years.
Bel canto is not related to the italian mid-19th century, it is a big mistake.
You reported most interesting and right things, as castrati, the roots in the baroque, but, who read, don't unterstand how long were the baroque-era?
I permit myself to integrated your right definition.
Bel canto was yet in Monteverdi and his masterworks, then in the start of 17th century.
Don't worry, nobody knows all of music.
Enough for me, but if you want, I could explain better.

Ciao Angelo


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

marmaluot_45 said:


> What you says is right, but non at all.
> Pardon, I'm a italian music professor, and have learnt music history for many years.
> Bel canto is not related to the italian mid-19th century, it is a big mistake.
> You reported most interesting and right things, as castrati, the roots in the baroque, but, who read, don't unterstand how long were the baroque-era?
> ...


Thanks, Angelo. But I think I pretty much said the same thing that you did, no? I said that in a broad sense, Bel Canto techniques have existed for a long time. But in the narrow sense, most people refer to Bellini, Rossini, and Donizetti when they talk about Bel Canto.

But if you want to explain it in more details, sure, I'd be willing to learn. You must have a lot to contribute. (I understand Italian, if you want to explain it in Italian).

Ciao, grazie mille!:tiphat:


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## Lukecash12 (Sep 21, 2009)

Here's a quote from Beethoven about Rossini: “Rossini would have been a great composer if his teacher had spanked him enough on the backside.”


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

Lukecash12 said:


> Here's a quote from Beethoven about Rossini: "Rossini would have been a great composer if his teacher had spanked him enough on the backside."


Oh well, Rossini got rich, enjoyed his life and his fortune for years as a young retiree in Paris, was a good cook (some Rossini recipes survive still today - like Tournedos Rossini, created by him) and allowed us all to have a lot of fun. A cool guy in my book. Beethoven should get over himself. If I had to pick a life to live, cool Rossini would be miles ahead of tortured Beethoven.


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## marmaluot_45 (Sep 17, 2010)

Almaviva said:


> Thanks, Angelo. But I think I pretty much said the same thing that you did, no? I said that in a broad sense, Bel Canto techniques have existed for a long time. But in the narrow sense, most people refer to Bellini, Rossini, and Donizetti when they talk about Bel Canto.
> 
> But if you want to explain it in more details, sure, I'd be willing to learn. You must have a lot to contribute. (I understand Italian, if you want to explain it in Italian).
> 
> Ciao, grazie mille!:tiphat:


Ti ringrazio ma se non capisci qualcosa te la traduco.

Quello che hai detto è giusto ma non del tutto.

Quando già parli di Gioacchino Rossini, il termine Belcanto deve essere usato con cautela.
Perchè?
1) il gioco dei caratteri femminili e maschili che nel Bel Canto sono quasi fusi.

Hai detto bene quando hai parlato dei castrati,è vero il suono della voce del castrato, irreale e fuori dal mondo è bel canto.

2)quando inizia ad entrare nell'opera la voce di tenore maschile, nelle parti di amoroso, allora non si può parlare di Bel Canto.

3) l'arte dell'improvvisazione e dell'agilità.

4) la coloratura, cioè l'astratezza del timbro tipico del castrato o della voce sopranile di donna.

5) I ruoli " In travestì"

Il mio maestro di conservatorio ed il grande Nino Pirrotta o Rodolfo Celletti, mi dicevano che il Bel Canto non esiste più in Donizzetti o in Bellini, perchè questi compositori si inspirarono alla realtà scenica dei loro personaggi che sono reali, con sentimenti umani.
Donizzetti in una lettera spiega questa cosa:
"Il canto che si ispira al linguaggio umano è il solo che possa rendere l'essenza di quello che gli esseri umani provano"
Quindi quando voi asserite che Donizzetti, Bellini e il primo Verdi fanno parte del Belcantismo, questo non può essere vero.

Mi fermo qui per darti tempo di riflettere e capire.

See you tommorow.


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## Lukecash12 (Sep 21, 2009)

Almaviva said:


> Oh well, Rossini got rich, enjoyed his life and his fortune for years as a young retiree in Paris, was a good cook (some Rossini recipes survive still today - like Tournedos Rossini, created by him) and allowed us all to have a lot of fun. A cool guy in my book. Beethoven should get over himself. If I had to pick a life to live, cool Rossini would be miles ahead of tortured Beethoven.


I wasn't aware you'd take such offense at the Old German's sarcasm


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

marmaluot_45 said:


> Ti ringrazio ma se non capisci qualcosa te la traduco.
> 
> Quello che hai detto è giusto ma non del tutto.
> 
> ...


So are you saying that:

_Bel canto cannot apply to tenor voices, only to castrati (who fuse male and female characteristics) and sopranos, because they are the only ones who can truly manage coloratura, ornamentation and so on? As soon as you have tenors playing the lover, there is no more bel canto?

Bel canto can only exist apart from any attempt to express human sentiments?_

Is this not a very narrow definition of bel canto?

Moreover even Baroque composers such as Handel were interested in expressing emotions through their operas, although I will admit that these were often more symbolic than directly related to the action (and when I think of Giulio Cesare I'm not even sure of that).


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

Lukecash12 said:


> I wasn't aware you'd take such offense at the Old German's sarcasm


As an Italian-American, I get very protective of Italian composers.


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## marmaluot_45 (Sep 17, 2010)

Händel offered the part of Giulio Cesare to Senesino,Francesco Bernardi from Siena, a famous and great contraltista.
Händel loved the timbro of castrato-contraltista.
In the Giulio Cesare,you quoted,there were a famous arias sung by the protagonist-contraltista.
I remember l'allegro "Quel torrente che cade dal monte", the most virtuosistic aria for Cesare.
We can't hear the artificial beauty of the castrato-voice, but the chronicles talked about this innatural mysterious marvel of the voice.
I interwieved Lucia Valentini-Terrani in 1993 ? and we talked about this big problem "Bel Canto".

She said me the problem was very intriguing.
She herself knew the difficulty to separeted the two era: Bel Canto and the end of Bel-Canto.
About several things we agreeded, but Verdi was beyond the dispute.

Violetta is a very woman and her cabaletta"Sempre libera degg'io" isn't Bel Canto.
Why? I say you with the Valentini-Terrani's words:
"Violetta comincia ad essere innamorata seriamente ma allontana da sè questo fantasma perchè comprometterebbe la sua "reputazione".
Lei, però, è donna e come le donne scherza su questo sentimento prendendosi in giro.
Bisogna ascoltarla svariate volte questa celebre cabaletta per avvertire tutte le sfumature di una donna ormai presa al laccio dall'amore."

Congratulazioni per la vostra conoscenza dell'italiano.

Angelo


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

marmaluot_45 said:


> Ti ringrazio ma se non capisci qualcosa te la traduco.
> 
> Quello che hai detto è giusto ma non del tutto.
> 
> ...


Thanks again. I understood 100% of it, didn't miss a single word. It's like this with me and Italian, I can barely speak it or write it without making a million mistakes, but I understand almost all of it, rarely missing a word. I have an Italian friend whose relationship with English is of the same nature, so we hold bi-lingual conversations; I ask in English, he replies in Italian, and vice-versa.:lol: I believe that this weird relationship with the Italian language comes from the fact that my father was Italian but didn't want his children to grow up segregated and didn't want us to speak Italian, but did speak it with his brothers and sisters, so I used to listen to it from a young age but wasn't allowed to speak it. The man had such authority over me (in the good sense, I really loved him) that it impacted on me some sort of blockade so that my spoken/written Italian never took off.

What you are saying is very interesting. So, Bel Canto needs to be somewhat pure, and only indulge in coloratura and display of vocal athletics, and should not include any realism. The music should be the ultimate display of human emotion instead of conveying it through the character or the plot, and the coloratura is only possible for the female voice, either in soprano roles or trouser roles, or the castrato role. This would then disqualify mid-19th century composers from this label.

But while they do use tenors as romantic lovers, their sopranos still employ coloratura (examplo, Rossini's aria _Una voce poco fa_)_. _Couldn't we say that in this aria, Rossini is adhering to Bel Canto traditions? Wouldn't it be the case that adding some realistic characters to the beautiful expression of emotions through vocal music makes of Bel Canto an even more enticing idea with even more emotional impact?

Ultimately, my point - same as Mamascarlatti - is: why do we need such a narrow definition of Bel Canto, when later composers, passed the Castrati era, continued to employ these techniques of beautiful singing at least for their soprano roles?


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## marmaluot_45 (Sep 17, 2010)

Almaviva said:


> Thanks again. I understood 100% of it, didn't miss a single
> 
> Ultimately, my point - same as Mamascarlatti - is: why do we need such a narrow definition of Bel Canto, when later composers, passed the Castrati era, continued to employ these techniques of beautiful singing at least for their soprano roles?


Hai ragione sull'ultimo punto.
Bellini e Donizetti parlano spesso di bel canto.
Questo è il punto più dibattuto ma superabile.
Cerco di farlo in maniera tranquilla e misurata.

Quando feci gli ultimi esami con un ragazzo, si parlò della messa in musica di parecchie poesie e canti della Divina Commedia di Dante Alighieri, nel 1300, Dante ancora vivente.
In pratica Dante sentiva le sue poesie cantate!!
Andando avanti parlammo dell'uomo Dante ed il ragazzo disse che il grande poeta fiorentino apparteneva al Medioevo ecc...
Poi improvvisamente non riuscendo a spiegarmi una cosa mi disse che Dante era un uomo e come tale soffriva e conosceva i sentimenti degli uomini dunque....
ERA UN ROMANTICO!!!

Sì Almaviva , oggi tutto è romantico, un film, un libro ,un amore e lo era anche per gli antichi.

Ma se per Romantico intendiamo quel preciso momento storico, dell'800 europeo, allora ci troviamo di fronte ad altre difficoltà.

La stessa cosa è capitata al BEL CANTO, per far prima si parlava di bel canto intendendo tessiture acute, gorgheggi, pezzi di agilità e colorature.

Ma non è così, noi studiosi dobbiamo mettere a posto le cose e non è sempre facile.

Bellini scriveva per il tenore Rubini cui dava parti di maschio amoroso con tessiture molto alte, ma non da castrato, tessiture da amoroso.
L'epoca amava queste agilità ma non c'era più l'opposizione donna-castrato.
C'era l'uomo, tenore di grazia e la soprano leggiero, che si amavano come si amano al naturale uomini e donne.

E' questo rientra dentro l'arte, come imitazione della natura ,che gioca a sfavore del Bel Canto!!!

Tu parli di Rosina e della sua cavatina nel Barbiere: in base a quello che ti ho detto, la risposta è no.
Rosina deve essere un contralto, quindi una voce molto vicina a quella di una vera donna.
Rosina è una donna e l'opera buffa vuole la netta distinzione tra l'uomo e la donna e non la fusione innaturale.
Rossini scrive tutte le parti di agilità, questo non succedeva nel periodo barocco: ricorda le arie di tempesta, le arie da baule dei castrati!!!
Rosina non fa del bel canto, ma spinge il suo personaggio nelle braccia del romanticismo.

Nelle opere serie di Rossini c'è il bel canto come lo abbiamo inteso noi, basato sullla riforma di cui fu promotore lo stesso Rossini.

1) nella Petite Messe, scritta da Rossini ormai vecchio, il compositore ,scrive sulla partitura, che il coro deve essere di 12 castrati, nel 1860!!!

2) Rossini, andando in Francia si dovette adeguare ai gusti francesi ed intraprese la strada del teatro romantico, da cui si ritirò disgustato dalla decadenza del canto dei castrati.

Insomma Rossini è l'ultimo bel cantista a metà.

Ti lascio il tempo per leggere.

See you later

Angelo


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## Aramis (Mar 1, 2009)

> Nelle opere serie di Rossini c'è il bel canto come lo abbiamo inteso noi, basato sullla riforma di cui fu promotore lo stesso Rossini.


Ich akzeptiere nicht, Rossini ist ein Pavian und seine Musik ist wie ein große rote Arsch.


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## jhar26 (Jul 6, 2008)

年月日成立21周年 年月日《华夏文摘》创刊19周年. 也许您记得第一次在电脑上读到方块字的快乐？也许当年从得到过的移民信息是您安家立业成功发展的新开端？也许您依然通过《华夏文摘》“我们”专栏认同您归属的一代独特群体？也许您和我们都希望所收集的文革”等现代史料能长久在线？您希望独立非营利的维持下去吗？支持本网站全靠您和我。请您每年1)惠顾赞助商通过安全地用信用卡捐款: 

:tiphat:


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## sospiro (Apr 3, 2010)

jhar26 said:


> 年月日成立21周年 年月日《华夏文摘》创刊19周年. 也许您记得第一次在电脑上读到方块字的快乐？也许当年从得到过的移民信息是您安家立业成功发展的新开端？也许您依然通过《华夏文摘》"我们"专栏认同您归属的一代独特群体？也许您和我们都希望所收集的文革"等现代史料能长久在线？您希望独立非营利的维持下去吗？支持本网站全靠您和我。请您每年1)惠顾赞助商通过安全地用信用卡捐款:
> 
> :tiphat:


:lol::lol:

It's 42 isn't it?


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## jhar26 (Jul 6, 2008)

sospiro said:


> :lol::lol:
> 
> It's 42 isn't it?


I have no idea, but I'll take your word for it. :lol:


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

marmaluot_45 said:


> Hai ragione sull'ultimo punto.
> Bellini e Donizetti parlano spesso di bel canto.
> Questo è il punto più dibattuto ma superabile.
> Cerco di farlo in maniera tranquilla e misurata.
> ...


OK, I got it. Quite interesting, it changes my entire perception of Bel Canto. But then, now tell me this: should we call Bel Canto the much later (20th century) scene of the Presentation of the Rose in _Der Rosenkavalier_ between Octavian (a trouser role) and Sophie, because it fits the definition of love between two soprano voices, in spite of the fact that there isn't major coloratura? My question should be understood as: what exactly defines Bel Canto, the agility, improvisation, coloratura, and emphasis on the voice rather than in the realism of the scene, or the fact that these arias are written for the higher ranges of sopranos, countertenors, sopranos in trouser roles, and castrati?


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

الاقتصاد الوطني اساسه العدالة ومبادئ الاقتصاد الحر، وقوامه التعاون البناء المثمر بين النشاط العام والنشاط الخاص، وهدفه تحقيق التنمية الاقتصادية والاجتماعية بما يؤدي الى زيادة الانتاج ورفع مستوى المعيشة للمواطنين وفقا للخطة العامة للدولة وفي​


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

So anyway, after all this I'm changing my answer to Handel.


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## marmaluot_45 (Sep 17, 2010)

Almaviva said:


> OK, I got it. Quite interesting, it changes my entire perception of Bel Canto. But then, now tell me this: should we call Bel Canto the much later (20th century) scene of the Presentation of the Rose in _Der Rosenkavalier_ between Octavian (a trouser role) and Sophie, because it fits the definition of love between two soprano voices, in spite of the fact that there isn't major coloratura? My question should be understood as: what exactly defines Bel Canto, the agility, improvisation, coloratura, and emphasis on the voice rather than in the realism of the scene, or the fact that these arias are written for the higher ranges of sopranos, countertenors, sopranos in trouser roles, and castrati?


Traggo una parte del libro più veritiero su questa dibattuta questione:
"(...) svolgono perciò una funzione determinante :
1) il cosidetto edonismo, che è in realtà espressione della soavità e della tenerezza patetica del suono vocale;
2) il virtuosismo e cioè l'ardimento stupefacente e strumentale che occorre per descrivere le meraviglie di un mondo fantastico;
3) il linguaggio emblematico e fiorito che sottolinea lo status mitico dei personaggi ;
4) l'abilità contrappuntistica e l'arte dell'improvvisazione;
5) l'astrattezza dei rapporti sessi-ruoli,simboleggiata dai castrati e dal travestì;
6) il gusto delle voci rare e stilizzate contrapposto ad una sorta di allergia alle voci ritenute comuni e volgari.

Soltanto la presenza di tutti questi elementi, in un'opera, consente di parlare di bel cantismo.
Il belcantismo fu un fenomeno storico che abbracciò un preciso periodo.
Già in talune opere di Rossini alcune delle sue componenti fondamentali danno segni di cedimento.
Parlare di belcantismo per i compositori successivi è improprio o erroneo.
Erroneo ed arbitrario è anche ritenere che il belcantismo sia stata proprietà privata e personale dei cantanti: una loro creazione.
In qualsiasi tipo di opera, il canto è sempre oggetto, mai soggetto.
Le scuole vocali e i tipi vocali non li creano nè i cantanti, nè i maestri di canto, ma gli operisti più rappresentativi e i loro librettisti, attraverso la scrittura, il linguaggio, le tessiture, il carattere dei pezzi chiusi e dei recitativi, le situazioni sceniche, il rapporto canto-orchestra.
Il belcantismo fu quello che fu, solo ed esclusivamente perchè i compositori e librettisti, anche dopo il barocco, s'ispirarono alla poetica, di cui ho rammentato le componenti, ed approntarono quindi le strutture musicali e teatrali che consentivano agli esecutori di cantare e d'esprimersi in quel modo anzichè in un altro.
Dunque, belcantisti sono anzitutto i compositori; quindi i librettisti; e finalmente i cantanti: s'intende quando eseguono a regola d'arte il repertorio che storicamente rientra nel belcantismo.
In un repertorio diverso, i cantanti si dividono semplicemente in quelli che cantano bene e quelli che cantano male.
Con Bellini e Donizetti, (fatta eccezione per alcune opere) comincia a decadere il diritto dello storico dell'opera, di parlare di belcantismo, sia in senso positivo che in senso polemico. (...)"

Tratto da Storia del belcanto di Rodolfo Celletti.

In pratica è un processo storico che oggi non è più realizzabile per la mancanza dei castrati.
Si ripiega con ruoli in travestì o ricorrendo a nuove figure di uomini che cantano come sopranisti o contraltisti, cosa molto rara.

Der Rosen di Strauss non è belcanto.

Ti lascio tempo di riflettere e di farmi le domande che vuoi.

Ciao Angelo


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## Krummhorn (Feb 18, 2007)

Admin note:

If we could continue this thread in the English language, the rest of the membership would probably benefit more from the discussion. If you wish to exchange words in another language with one another, please do so in a Private Message. 

Thanks


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## marmaluot_45 (Sep 17, 2010)

then I resume from a great Belcanto Book of Rodolfo Celletti:


Bel canto is

1)Edonism: expression of sweetness and tenderness pathetyc of vocal sound
2)The virtuosismo marvellous which describes the beautiful things of fantastic world( baroque-world)
3) the status of characters who belong to myth
4)counterpuntistic ability and improvisation art
5)the abstractness of relationship male-female, symbolized by castrati and travestì.
6)The contempt of common and popular voices.

If these elements are content in the opera, then we talk about BelCanto.
Belcanto included a exact era; in some operas of Rossini, we don't speak BelCanto.
For the followed composers, after Rossini, to talk about Belcanto, is a mistake!!

Another great mistake is said that Belcanto were an invention of the singers.
Singer created nothing, they conformed themselves to the rules which created, instead, the composers and librettists.
The world of Belcanto can only been immagine, but we can't recreate the atmosphere.
There are the witnesses and their reportages which explain this magic and lost world.
With Bellini and Donizetti( except few their operas) the opera's historic hasn't the right to talk about BelCanto, either in positive either in polemical manner.

Castrati are the core of problems.
Their abstract, magic,sensual music and their beautiful sing way are lost for ever.
Nowdays we have only the men who try to sing in high testa texitur( tessitura) but is not the same thing.
The Rosen of Strauss is not Belcanto.
Belcanto is the castrato singer against the female-singer.


Excuse Admin you're right.
Pardon and thank for your announcement.

Almaviva give me your private mail, if you want.

I ask pardon all the members of my mistake.

Angelo


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

marmaluot_45 said:


> Excuse Admin you're right.
> Pardon and thank for your announcement.
> 
> Almaviva give me your private mail, if you want.
> ...


Go figure, and we outside of Italy then, have had the wrong idea about what constitutes Bel Canto, since... forever...

Thank you, but I actually don't have more questions for the moment, Angelo, I think you have explained everything beautifully and now I got it. Maybe I should try to buy this book you've quoted. I'll look it up on Amazon.com.

Edit: I did, it's available in English, and I've ordered it, it will be here mid-week. Here is the link if anybody else wants it:

http://www.amazon.com/History-Bel-C...=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1284945887&sr=8-1

Here is the image of the cover:










You don't need my email address, what the administrator suggested is a function called Private Message. If you click on Quick Links on the upper right corner you'll see the Private Message function. You can then send me a message just for my eyes, and others won't be able to see it. But I think Mamascarlatti was also enjoying this discussion. The best thing, like the administrator said, is to continue in English so that everybody can benefit.


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

Almaviva said:


> But I think Mamascarlatti was also enjoying this discussion. The best thing, like the administrator said, is to continue in English so that everybody can benefit.


Well it certainly was all news to me. I'm not sure I'm convinced - after all Bel canto is a label and it seems to me that the labels are being applied in two different senses:

The art of singing beautifully, associated with arias written for the artificial voices of castrati, as described by Angelo.

The Bel Canto era, associated with Rossini and others, who took elements of these ideas and incorporated them into a more "realistic" staging which employed tenors in the male roles.


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

mamascarlatti said:


> Well it certainly was all news to me. I'm not sure I'm convinced - after all Bel canto is a label and it seems to me that the labels are being applied in two different senses:
> 
> The art of singing beautifully, associated with arias written for the artificial voices of castrati, as described by Angelo.
> 
> The Bel Canto era, associated with Rossini and others, who took elements of these ideas and incorporated them into a more "realistic" staging which employed tenors in the male roles.


This is exactly the position I was defending in my first post about this.

But now, I'm not so sure. I browsed the contents of this book and indeed it locates the death of Bel Canto in Rossini. So, at least a very highly regarded scholar in the history of Italian music defends what Angelo here is saying.

To tell you the truth, I have always been a little bothered by this notion, although until today I was unable to really pinpoint what had been bothering me, which now I'm able to put this way: I had always had the impression that we find more Bel Canto in the baroque than we do in what we usually lable Bel Canto (Rossini, Donizetti, Bellini).

So, I am open to revising my notions. I'll read the book and report back.

The problem is, I don't know exactly when I'll read it, since I have other books that I should read before this one.


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

Almaviva said:


> I had always had the impression that we find more Bel Canto in the baroque than we do in what we usually lable Bel Canto (Rossini, Donizetti, Bellini).


That's a good point - all those da capo arias and embellishments.


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## marmaluot_45 (Sep 17, 2010)

Almaviva said:


> This is exactly the position I was defending in my first post about this.
> 
> But now, I'm not so sure. I browsed the contents of this book and indeed it locates the death of Bel Canto in Rossini. So, at least a very highly regarded scholar in the history of Italian music defends what Angelo here is saying.
> 
> ...


I has got a unique tape( audio only) of a true castrato of the holy Chapel in Vaticano.

The castrato sings many arias, in this registration of 1905, he is fifty years old, but the voice is beautiful.

You'll listen to the artificial voice of a boy, a ottava higher than a soprano.
If you want, i can send you.
We can menage how, send me a private post and i'll say you what you must do.

Rodolfo Celletti was the founder of Festival Valle D'Itria, dedicated only to the belcanto operas.
Now it's clear to you that Belcanto which you hear, it's a compromise.

At the end of his life, Rossini, componed La petite Messe, 1860 ca.

Over the score, he wrote La petite messe.... pour soli and coro of castrati, twelve angioletti, piano and harmonium ecc..

Unterstand, he had worked with the best castrati in his early career. and continued to dream and think of them.

See you


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

marmaluot_45 said:


> I has got a unique tape( audio only) of a true castrato of the holy Chapel in Vaticano.
> 
> The castrato sings many arias, in this registration of 1905, he is fifty years old, but the voice is beautiful.
> 
> ...


Thanks, but I've listened to such a recording in the recent BBC documentary about castrati.


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## jhar26 (Jul 6, 2008)

mamascarlatti said:


> Well it certainly was all news to me. I'm not sure I'm convinced - after all Bel canto is a label and it seems to me that the labels are being applied in two different senses:
> 
> The art of singing beautifully, associated with arias written for the artificial voices of castrati, as described by Angelo.
> 
> The Bel Canto era, associated with Rossini and others, who took elements of these ideas and incorporated them into a more "realistic" staging which employed tenors in the male roles.


I agree. I don't doubt that what Marmaluot_45 says is correct, but ask the average opera lover about bel canto and he'll start talking about Rossini, Bellini and Donizetti.


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## marmaluot_45 (Sep 17, 2010)

In the music the words,often, mean more things.
The historic must be careful, music has many traps.
We italians often try to unterstand many words in the letters of great and old musicians which don't coincide to these we use nowdays.
We must make many efforts in this way.
Sinfonia is a common word in XIXth century, but it is not the same meaning in XVIIth ecc...
I'm glad helping you to solve the rebus and to give a right meaning to a word.
You can continue to use Belcanto pointing the operas of mid-XIXth century, but holding in your mind the true meaning.
Nobody will charge you of that terrible mistake.
Music is the highest art, but in the mind of common man is, actually, a cinderella.
Eating the soul with music, was the most sublime goal in his own life by greeks.
It is the involution of actual cultural art.
This is, we'll go back in the cave.
We ,who use the powerful technology, trust in nothing more.
The science obscured our minds; science is not the answer for our souls and it will be nevermore.
We are wrong, thinking that it were enough going in the moon or taking off the pain and the hard work from us.
The ancients were right : musica meditatio continua mortis (Adam von Fulda).

Clear?
Bye Bye
I leave our forum for ever.
Thank you for all.
Be good.


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## jhar26 (Jul 6, 2008)

marmaluot_45 said:


> Bye Bye
> I leave our forum for ever.
> Thank you for all.
> Be good.


Why? There's no reason for you to leave this forum.


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## Sonata (Aug 7, 2010)

> It's 42 isn't it?


 Nice one.


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

jhar26 said:


> I agree. I don't doubt that what Marmaluot_45 says is correct, but ask the average opera lover about bel canto and he'll start talking about Rossini, Bellini and Donizetti.


Quote from Intermezzo's blog today:

_"Future seasons will cast their net wider - Pereira promises exploration of the classical and bel canto areas as well as the baroque."_


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