# What is your favourite French symphony or which do you consider to be the best?



## Anankasmo (Jun 23, 2017)

I love French music but in the symphonic genre France lacks strength in numbers although there are some great ones obviously. Which do you think are the best/most influential or most popular?


----------



## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

1. Saint-Saens - Symphony 3 'Organ"
2. Berlioz - Sinfonie Fantastique
3. Magnard - Symphony 4
4. Messiaen - Turangalila symphony
5. Dutilleux - Symphony 2 "Le double"

honourable mentions (aside from others by these composers) for Roussel, d'Indy, Chausson, and others.


----------



## Common Listener (Apr 6, 2019)

Bizet's Symphony in C.


----------



## Anankasmo (Jun 23, 2017)

love the second movement


----------



## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

If we count Franck as French, he'd occupy third spot in my list above.


----------



## Anankasmo (Jun 23, 2017)

Art Rock said:


> If we count Franck as French, he'd occupy third spot in my list above.


well difficult case with Franck i mean how long did he even live in Belgium? And his influence on French music especially on the symphonies of Chausson, Dukas and more is quite big.


----------



## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

Well he was Dutch for 8 years, Belgian for 42 years, and French for 18 years.......


----------



## MarkW (Feb 16, 2015)

About the only one I would have difficulty living without would be La Mer.


----------



## Rogerx (Apr 27, 2018)

Saint-Saens 3rd
Franck
Berlioz Symphonie Fantastique
Chausson Symphony
Lalo Symphony in G minor1
Messiaen Turangalia Symphony
Dukas Symphony in C


----------



## Orfeo (Nov 14, 2013)

Franck: Symphony in D
Chausson: Symphony in B-flat
Roussel: Symphony no. I
Schmitt: Symphony no. II (with a lovely, sublime slow movement)
Dukas: Symphony in C
Dutilleux: Symphony no. I
Saint-Saens: Symphony in F "Urbs Roma"
Milhaud: Symphony no. II


----------



## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

I voted for the Franck but could have gone for one or two others. I love the Bizet greatly but it is not of the stature of many of the contenders. I do at times love the Saint-Saens 3rd but find it rather an empty work (the amazing thing is that he manages to make such thin ideas work so well). I could have voted for the Messiaen but Turangalila is not really my favourite piece of his. I could have voted for the Berlioz and the "other" was quite appealing.


----------



## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

MarkW said:


> About the only one I would have difficulty living without would be La Mer.


Yeah, I think La Mer tops the list, even though it's technically not a symphony, but it pretty much is.


----------



## Anankasmo (Jun 23, 2017)

Manxfeeder said:


> Yeah, I think La Mer tops the list, even though it's technically not a symphony, but it pretty much is.


hmm i never liked La Mer that much. Also i wanted to only include works with the name of symphony in it. Also this way poor romantic composers of French romanticism have a chance instead of the Debussy/Ravel hegemony.


----------



## Bourdon (Jan 4, 2019)

Manxfeeder said:


> Yeah, I think La Mer tops the list, even though it's technically not a symphony, but it pretty much is.


They are called "Tone Poems" = a symphonic poem.


----------



## Anankasmo (Jun 23, 2017)

My vote goes to S-S 3rd which i love dearly. Also Franck which is a hot mess but a lovely one at that. Never could get into Berlioz.


----------



## Allegro Con Brio (Jan 3, 2020)

I love Franck and Saint-Saens, and like to hear Messiaen's Turangalila from time to time. Chausson and Magnard are also very good, though it's been a while since I've heard them. I also agree with those who mentioned Dutilleux. Generally symphonies are not the forte of the French, but I'm somewhat of a musical Francophile so I like pretty much all of them, save for the Berlioz which I've just never seen the appeal of. I wouldn't call La Mer a symphony, but if we do it might be my favorite.


----------



## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

Bourdon said:


> They are called "Tone Poems" = a symphonic poem.


Yep. And it's just a personal opinion to think of it as more of a symphony. David Cox in his analysis of it calls it "The best symphony every written by a Frenchman," noting that each movement is a "finished, beautifully wrought, cogent symphonic movement." It has a slow introduction with a faster section, a scherzo, and a finale with a lyrical theme. "Considered together, they form a perfectly unified composition, fulfilling in fact the requirements of a symphony as generally understood."

Or as they say, if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck . . .


----------



## CnC Bartok (Jun 5, 2017)

The one major omission for me from this list is Magnard's 4th. I have a very high opinion of it.


----------



## Anankasmo (Jun 23, 2017)

CnC Bartok said:


> The one major omission for me from this list is Magnard's 4th. I have a very high opinion of it.


yes i knew people like Magnard but i dont know his symphonies and didnt know which one people consider to be his best.


----------



## D Smith (Sep 13, 2014)

Franck, Berlioz, Saint-Saens 3, Magnard 4, Roussel 3, Dutilleux 2 Le Double and La Mer if that’s being considered a symphony for this discussion.


----------



## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

CnC Bartok said:


> The one major omission for me from this list is Magnard's 4th. I have a very high opinion of it.


Great selection. Also, if anyone wants something really unusual, try to listen to some of the symphony by Tournemire.


----------



## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

I really don't know about greatest or most popular? But I enjoy these:

Roussel No. 3
Dutilleux No.2
Berlioz
Franck
Messiaen
Chausson


----------



## Brahmsian Colors (Sep 16, 2016)

Can't make a clear top choice between Saint-Saens' Third and Bizet's Symphony in C.


----------



## CnC Bartok (Jun 5, 2017)

Anankasmo said:


> yes i knew people like Magnard but i dont know his symphonies and didnt know which one people consider to be his best.


I think that among Magnard fans (and we do come out from beneath our logs occasionally!) there would be consensus that his finest Symphony would be either No.3 or No.4. The former has a wonderful slow movement, which is probably the source of the rather daft "French Bruckner" epithet. For me, the 4th is just that little bit more special, a genuinely noble utterance. For me at least, both are jaw droppers.


----------



## MusicSybarite (Aug 17, 2017)

Worth mentioning too: Louis Vierne's Symphony in A minor, Paul Paray's Symphony No. 1 and Pierre-Octave Ferroud's Symphony in A. All of them very good.


----------



## Tallisman (May 7, 2017)

I've always been fond of the Franck D Minor. That first movement is a masterpiece of symphonic landscaping. Some hair-raisingly good moments:

The buildup towards the grand statement at 6:30, and the gradual, winding down after it. The ambiguities, constant delaying of resolutions from 12:12.

Love it.


----------



## Ulfilas (Mar 5, 2020)

I have to vote for Berlioz, however surely Roussel is the major French symphonist?


----------



## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

Franck
Roussel #3
S-Saens #3


----------



## Xisten267 (Sep 2, 2018)

My five favorites today:

1. Saint-Saëns - Symphony No. 3 "Organ";
2. Berlioz - Symphony No. 3 "Roméo et Juliette";
3. Debussy - La Mer;
4. Berlioz - Symphony No. 4 "Funèbre et Triomphale";
5. Berlioz - Symphony No. 1 "Fantastique";


----------



## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

Étienne Méhul Symphony No.1 In G Minor (1808)


----------



## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

Berlioz, La Mer, Dutilleux 2


----------



## flamencosketches (Jan 4, 2019)

CSS 3. One of my favorite symphonies by anyone.


----------



## Anankasmo (Jun 23, 2017)

flamencosketches said:


> CSS 3. One of my favorite symphonies by anyone.


Same. Honestly imo the symphony is right up there with the best of Beethoven and else.


----------



## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

So is it only me who feels a little embarrassed to be caught listening to it? 

Seriously though, I wish I could understand what makes some here think so highly of it.


----------



## Allegro Con Brio (Jan 3, 2020)

Enthusiast said:


> So is it only me who feels a little embarrassed to be caught listening to it?
> 
> Seriously though, I wish I could understand what makes some here think so highly of it.


I just find it beautiful, creative, and downright fun music, though certainly not profound or all that well-crafted (the little fugue in the finale is fairly pathetic). The composer is having the time of his life, and we're expected to join in. Though I would not call it one of my absolute favorite symphonies (and perhaps it is slightly eclipsed by the Franck in terms of my preferred French symphonies), it is probably in my top 100 compositions. I listen to it whenever I need a jolt of energy and beauty in perfect proportion.


----------



## flamencosketches (Jan 4, 2019)

Enthusiast said:


> So is it only me who feels a little embarrassed to be caught listening to it?
> 
> Seriously though, I wish I could understand what makes some here think so highly of it.


Why do you feel that way?


----------



## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

I more or less agree with Allegro Con Brio about the piece and, while I do sometimes greatly enjoy listening to it (I have four recordings of it!), I don't take it very seriously and am surprised that many seem to. The big tune in the last movement sounds a bit "trashy" to me and its treatment is over the top - so, yes, it is great fun but it is also a bit kitschy. In general I feel that Saint-Saens is a bit overrated but this is a piece of his that I do like.


----------



## bfBrian (Aug 12, 2018)

Enthusiast said:


> I more or less agree with Allegro Con Brio about the piece and, while I do sometimes greatly enjoy listening to it (I have four recordings of it!), I don't take it very seriously and am surprised that many seem to. ...


Personally, I find the 3rd to be my least favorite symphony of Saint Saens.

The first three movements of Urbs Roma are fantastic (particularly the 2nd and 3rd). That's actually my favorite symphony by anyone.

I find the 1st movement of the 2nd symphony to be sort of Beethoven-esque. While the adagio 2nd movement is very French. The 3rd movement sort of goes back and forth. Unlike Urbs Roma, the 2nd finishes with a dramatic, yet fun, high energy Prestissimo.


----------



## Bwv 1080 (Dec 31, 2018)

Dutilleaux Metaboles, Grisey les espaces acoustiques


----------



## SONNET CLV (May 31, 2014)

The Chausson Symphony has long been a favorite of mine. I recognize that it is not a towering masterwork as are symphonies by, say, Berlioz, Franck, Saint-Saens, Roussel, Magnard and Dutilleux … but its a work I heard early and one that helped pull me over the line into the "classical music" universe. Each time I visit this work I listen to it with joy. It's a beautiful work and I wouldn't want to be without it.

My favorite versions remains the Munch with the Boston Symphony version on RCA. That's probably the first version I heard; I still have the vinyl disc in my collection from way way back. But I've augmented that disc with several other versions of the Chausson B-Flat Symphony, and each one has delights to offer.

Just as I rank the Howard Hanson Second Symphony as my favorite all-time symphony, I highly rank the Chausson B-Flat near the Hanson as a favorite. I guess I'm a Romantic at heart.


----------



## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

bfBrian said:


> Personally, I find the 3rd to be my least favorite symphony of Saint Saens.
> 
> The first three movements of Urbs Roma are fantastic (particularly the 2nd and 3rd). That's actually my favorite symphony by anyone.
> 
> I find the 1st movement of the 2nd symphony to be sort of Beethoven-esque. While the adagio 2nd movement is very French. The 3rd movement sort of goes back and forth. Unlike Urbs Roma, the 2nd finishes with a dramatic, yet fun, high energy Prestissimo.


Yes, I also have a soft spot for Urbs Roma - probably a part of my enjoyment of youthful Romantic symphonies in general. You don't like the 4th movement?


----------



## flamencosketches (Jan 4, 2019)

Enthusiast said:


> I more or less agree with Allegro Con Brio about the piece and, while I do sometimes greatly enjoy listening to it (I have four recordings of it!), I don't take it very seriously and am surprised that many seem to. The big tune in the last movement sounds a bit "trashy" to me and its treatment is over the top - so, yes, it is great fun but it is also a bit kitschy. In general I feel that Saint-Saens is a bit overrated but this is a piece of his that I do like.


I've just remembered you don't like Mendelssohn, either-it makes sense now.


----------



## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

^ You find them similar? Or is that just further evidence of my dubious taste!


----------



## CnC Bartok (Jun 5, 2017)

On the matter of Debussy's La Mer (the greatest thing to ever have come out of Eastbourne, unless you're a fan of Theresa May!), I was under the impression (!) that he deliberately avoided calling it either a symphony, or a symphonic poem, using the term "three symphonic sketches" instead. Not sure why, possibly a Gallic thing, in that "the Symphony" was perceived as more of a Germanic entity then?

I'd also like to mention the immensely satisfying qualities of the symphonies of two more minor composers - the six numbered ones of Theodore Gouvy (who perhaps moved in more Germanic circles, but can still be considered French), and the five by Guy Ropartz (maybe better remembered for his dedicated rescuing of the music of Magnard?). While neither produced anything I'd be able to see as France's greatest, neither is worthy of the neglect they experience today.


----------



## flamencosketches (Jan 4, 2019)

Enthusiast said:


> ^ You find them similar? Or is that just further evidence of my dubious taste!


I'm not sure that I find them similar per se, but I do enjoy both composers for similar reasons: both wrote well-crafted, tightly-knit, melodious, unpretentious Romantic music with a Classical sense of restraint, and sometimes that's exactly what I'm in the mood for.


----------



## Joachim Raff (Jan 31, 2020)

To choose a favourite you have to listen to them all. I would suggest to explore not the obvious but some of the unsung ones as well. Some of my favourites come from Widor, Ropartz, Tournemire, Lalo, Gossec, Godard, Gounod and many more.


----------



## Strange Magic (Sep 14, 2015)

Let me put in a good word for the dandy d'Indy! Leaving aside any and all considerations as to whether it or any given piece of music is sufficiently deep or serious enough to warrant our valuable time spent on it when we could, or should, be listening to (your nominee here), the d'Indy Symphony on a French Mountain Air to me is literally a breath--a rush--of wonderful, joyful song seemingly out of nowhere. Makes me smile with pleasure every time I hear it.


----------



## bfBrian (Aug 12, 2018)

Enthusiast said:


> Yes, I also have a soft spot for Urbs Roma - probably a part of my enjoyment of youthful Romantic symphonies in general. You don't like the 4th movement?


I've read some reviews of people who consider the 4th movement the highlight of Urbs Roma, but I find it a let down after the 2nd and 3rd. I think the 3rd makes a wonderful finale, with its moribund tone. I also typically skip the last movement of his 5th piano concerto, which I find lacks emotional depth, and is almost an apology for the serious pulling of the heartstrings in the prior two movements.

What's your take?


----------



## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

^ No, I can't say I have felt that way with either work. I don't think the last movement of Urbs Roma is the highlight either. It hasn't struck me to remove it - I will listen to both works in this light to see what lessons I learn!


----------



## Anankasmo (Jun 23, 2017)

bfBrian said:


> I've read some reviews of people who consider the 4th movement the highlight of Urbs Roma, but I find it a let down after the 2nd and 3rd. I think the 3rd makes a wonderful finale, with its moribund tone. I also typically skip the last movement of his 5th piano concerto, which I find lacks emotional depth, and is almost an apology for the serious pulling of the heartstrings in the prior two movements.
> 
> What's your take?


I Love the funeral March in this symphony.


----------



## Anankasmo (Jun 23, 2017)

bfBrian said:


> I've read some reviews of people who consider the 4th movement the highlight of Urbs Roma, but I find it a let down after the 2nd and 3rd. I think the 3rd makes a wonderful finale, with its moribund tone. I also typically skip the last movement of his 5th piano concerto, which I find lacks emotional depth, and is almost an apology for the serious pulling of the heartstrings in the prior two movements.
> 
> What's your take?


I think SS isnt a composer for deep listening and heartfelt Emotions. I think he composed just like his Personality. Charming, formally brilliant, ecclectic and with an organic approach to music/melody. He is no Wagner or Mahler and think god for that


----------



## chu42 (Aug 14, 2018)

This is good. One of the few Alkan works that are high quality throughout.


----------



## tdc (Jan 17, 2011)

My favorite is Debussy's _La Mer_, I also enjoy and rate highly the symphonies of Albert Roussel.

Berlioz _Symphonie Fantastique_ is surely among the best, though not a personal favorite.


----------



## Olias (Nov 18, 2010)

La Mer - The "symphony" that isn't a symphony, but still is.


----------



## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

Joachim Raff said:


> To choose a favourite you have to listen to them all.


That's the ideal situation, but it isn't a practical one.


----------



## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

Strange Magic said:


> Let me put in a good word for the dandy d'Indy!


Peter Schickele once wrote a love song to Cindy, where each line rhymed with her name. The one I remember the most is, "O Cindy, you're like a symphony by d'Indy."


----------



## Strange Magic (Sep 14, 2015)

Manxfeeder said:


> Peter Schickele once wrote a love song to Cindy, where each line rhymed with her name. The one I remember the most is, "O Cindy, you're like a symphony by d'Indy."


Visual rhyme anyway, though not aural. The only thing I can come up with as an accurate rhyme is the nickname for Condoleeza Rice, "Condi".


----------



## Jacck (Dec 24, 2017)

tough decision between Saint-Saens 3rd and Symphonie fantastique, but I would likely go with for Saint-Saens


----------



## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

1. Berlioz - Sym. Fantastique
2. Chausson
3. Saint-Saens 3rd
4. Franck


----------



## SONNET CLV (May 31, 2014)

Bulldog said:


> 1. Berlioz - Sym. Fantastique
> 2. Chausson
> 3. Saint-Saens 3rd
> 4. Franck


A wonderful list. Were these the only four French symphonies in existence, we would not be short-changed. (I am glad, though, that there are many many more, and so many of those of great quality.)


----------

