# Mozart vs Clementi



## beetzart (Dec 30, 2009)

I wonder people think about his raging debate. Personally I have to side with Clementi mainly for his output like the op 40 op 50 sonatas, and the Gradus ad Parnassum. Mozart's piano sonatas are divine, but Clementi was more forward thinking.

I like to big Muzio up as I think he really tried, and was endorsed by Beethoven and I think Chopin.

Any views?


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## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

I don't know if it has any bearing on the subject - for you anyway - Beethoven admired the music of both composers; but it was Mozart that he wanted to learn from.


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## neoshredder (Nov 7, 2011)

I need to listen to more Clementi. I guess I would have to go with Mozart by default but no doubt CPE Bach is my favorite Classical Era Composer.


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## beetzart (Dec 30, 2009)

I'm just getting into CPE Bach and really enjoying his music. Out of the Bach brothers I would prefer him.


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## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

I have heard some Clementi - some of it is attractive - but really nowhere near the same level of invention. Are you serious? Mozart vs Clementi?
Next it will be Beethoven v Sphor.


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## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

beetzart said:


> I wonder people think about his raging debate.


What raging debate? First I have heard of it.


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## beetzart (Dec 30, 2009)

stomanek said:


> I have heard some Clementi - some of it is attractive - but really nowhere near the same level of invention. Are you serious? Mozart vs Clementi?
> Next it will be Beethoven v Sphor.


Have you not heard his Gradus ad Parnassum then?


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## beetzart (Dec 30, 2009)

stomanek said:


> What raging debate? First I have heard of it.


I suppose I was trying to be ironic. Sorry, should have added a smiley or something. Then again I suppose if you haven't heard about of it then it couldn't possibly count.


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## Vaneyes (May 11, 2010)

I enjoy occasional Clementi keyboard with Michelangeli, Demidenko, and Horowitz recs., but there is no competition with micro or macro WAM.


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## neoshredder (Nov 7, 2011)

I think the better question is Stamitz vs Clementi.


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## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

beetzart said:


> Have you not heard his Gradus ad Parnassum then?


No - I will check it out. Sorry I missed the irony - but there are people out there who genuinely think Salieri is better than Mozart (C of av-garde do not comment!) so you never know.


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## beetzart (Dec 30, 2009)

stomanek said:


> No - I will check it out. Sorry I missed the irony - but there are people out there who genuinely think Salieri is better than Mozart (C of av-garde do not comment!) so you never know.


I think I worded my initial post wrong, sorry. I wouldn't say that Clementi is better then Mozart, mainly because Clementi didn't produce much beyond piano works. His symphonies are nice but don't come close to Mozart's. I was just hinting at how original Clementi is is some of his works, ie Gradus and op 40 and op 50 piano sonatas. They are very progressive , full of emotion, tender (no really, some parts of the Gradus reduce me to tears), bombastic, virtuosic, yet very playable for an amatuer musician. It is as if Clementi is giving us something that is quite doable, but to the non-musician appears to be incredible, or at least impressive.

I suppose I would say that Clementi's piano sonatas are more satisfying to play, personally. I think they were written with a forward thinking mind, when he discovered what the piano is capable of. Now, Mozart's sonatas are very good, but as someone said here a few days ago, they were written for parties, or get togethers, or something like that. Now let's be honest, WAM could probably smash together a full sonata in an afternoon.

Conclusion, I think Clementi deserves more credit, too much goes to Hummel for the minor king of that period. Hummel's ok, some fantastic works, but lazy in others.


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## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

I don't recall reading about it, so maybe I'm out in left field somewhere, but Clementi may have been a precursor of Chopin in the championing-the-piano category. He did his best to improve the instrument, and he composed good things that a talented amateur could play on it. That's not the tack Chopin took, but the piano-can-be-great focus is there.

On yet another tack, Beethoven composed stuff that challenged piano builders; a significant contribution to the cause, though he wasn't so much a piano-nut as the other two.


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## beetzart (Dec 30, 2009)

Hilltroll72 said:


> I don't recall reading about it, so maybe I'm out in left field somewhere, but Clementi may have been a precursor of Chopin in the championing-the-piano category. He did his best to improve the instrument, and he composed good things that a talented amateur could play on it. That's not the tack Chopin took, but the piano-can-be-great focus is there.
> 
> On yet another tack, Beethoven composed stuff that challenged piano builders; a significant contribution to the cause, though he wasn't so much a piano-nut as the other two.


I agree with the comment about Chopin, I read it somewhere too. The final 20 or so studies of the Gradus actually sound more like Alkan then Chopin. Obviously Clementi come first, so I wonder if Alkan was influenced in any way.


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## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

beetzart said:


> I think I worded my initial post wrong, sorry. I wouldn't say that Clementi is better then Mozart, mainly because Clementi didn't produce much beyond piano works. His symphonies are nice but don't come close to Mozart's. I was just hinting at how original Clementi is is some of his works, ie Gradus and op 40 and op 50 piano sonatas. They are very progressive , full of emotion, tender (no really, some parts of the Gradus reduce me to tears), bombastic, virtuosic, yet very playable for an amatuer musician. It is as if Clementi is giving us something that is quite doable, but to the non-musician appears to be incredible, or at least impressive.
> 
> I suppose I would say that Clementi's piano sonatas are more satisfying to play, personally. I think they were written with a forward thinking mind, when he discovered what the piano is capable of. Now, Mozart's sonatas are very good, but as someone said here a few days ago, they were written for parties, or get togethers, or something like that. Now let's be honest, WAM could probably smash together a full sonata in an afternoon.
> 
> Conclusion, I think Clementi deserves more credit, too much goes to Hummel for the minor king of that period. Hummel's ok, some fantastic works, but lazy in others.


It's hard to imagine, based on what I have heard - Clementi has composed anything as deep as the fantasy in c minor k475, or the sonata in the same key or the A minor sonata - to name a few and not to mention the great piano concertos.


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## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

stomanek said:


> It's hard to imagine, based on what I have heard - Clementi has composed anything as deep as the fantasy in c minor k475, or the sonata in the same key or the A minor sonata - to name a few and not to mention the great piano concertos.


The 'deep' thing has a strong subjective component. I too am 'drawn deep into' the K.475/K.457 coupling, but there are other factors in the relative worth sweepstakes, eh? Whether you and I are drawn into some of Mozart, and skip along the surface of Clementi, is only marginally relevant.

If I had to vote, I'd choose Mozart - but only if I could winnow out what I deem second-rate from both of them, and go by what is left.


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## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

Hilltroll72 said:


> The 'deep' thing has a strong subjective component. I too am 'drawn deep into' the K.475/K.457 coupling, but there are other factors in the relative worth sweepstakes, eh? Whether you and I are drawn into some of Mozart, and skip along the surface of Clementi, is only marginally relevant.
> 
> If I had to vote, I'd choose Mozart - but only if I could winnow out what I deem second-rate from both of them, and go by what is left.


Yes of course- though the master pianists past and present seem to more or less ignore Clementi -not that that is any indication of his relative worth - still - it is interesting. You understand that my listening time is limited - so I don't have time to listen to Clementi and other classical (dare I say) lesser masters especially when the musical establishment passes them over - I tend to assume that this has a good reason behind it and therefore I am selective with listening. I don't even know all Mozart's sonatas and I give rare chances to unknown composers (to me) such as Clementi - I heard some sonatas - thought them unimpressive - so that was his chance! Gone. I just don't have time to keep trying out a composer to find if he merits further listening. I move on quickly as there is much repertoire and many composers. Recommendations are a good source though - I would not know Micheal haydn's superb requiem were it not for a thread on this site praising it to the skies. Also Mozart's K222 was a great discovery - recommended by cofAG for which I am grateful.


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## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

Beethoven, Michelangeli, Horowitz - they didn't ignore Clementi. There are CDs of recitals by ABM and Horowitz containing Clementi. I don't know how easily available those CDs are, but they are worth looking for. Even if you don't dig the Clementi... .


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## beetzart (Dec 30, 2009)

These are quite impressive.


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