# Handel Messiah



## DarkAngel (Aug 11, 2010)

This week I pulled out my huge pile of Messiah CD sets, getting ready for Christmas good time to see what people here like as thier favorite versions on CD........

Some conductors have had time to record multiple versions over long period of time with different singers, interesting to see the adapting of current trends. Anyway how about sharing your favorite version as well as a few comments why you like them so much

BTW I searched this forum and could find no previous discussions of this popular work......


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## Herkku (Apr 18, 2010)

To begin with, I have thought Messiah is an oratorio, but I don't mind it discussed it here. I read somewhere that Verdi's Requiem was his best opera! Not as a joke, either. There are so many recordings of Messiah to choose from...

First of all, almost anything goes as long as "He was despised" is not sung by a contratenor and the chorus doesn't sound like The Mormon Tabernacle Choir fifty years ago...

{As it happened, at my mother's funeral, Eeva-Liisa Saarinen sang "And He Will Feed His Flock" (and an aria from Bach's Magnificat). She was one of the leading mezzos in the old Finnish National Opera and I had just seen and heard her twice as La Cenerentola. When we discussed the kind of music that should be played, I happened to mentioned her to my sister, who immediately grasped the telephone and called her. And she answered yes! She was going to visit her parents on that particular weekend and it was along the way. In the small chapel, her voice was so magnificent that I completely forgot that this was a funeral, and my mother's at that.}

I think that the first recording of Messiah where I realized that the chorus can be crystal clear was conducted by Philippe Herreweghe. But, please, no contratenors in Messiah!


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## HarpsichordConcerto (Jan 1, 2010)

There was a discussion only two/three days ago in the _Current Listening_ thread.

http://www.talkclassical.com/1005-current-listening-452.html



HarpsichordConcerto said:


> Andre, there are plenty of excellent recordings of _The Messiah_, which I must admit, I have yet to experience a "bad" HIP recording of. The standard now on this masterpiece by HIP is consistently high that each version I own and have sampled seem to convince me that this masterpiece deserves all the attention that it commands when a record label releases one on CD.
> 
> I have (all are HIP):-
> 
> ...


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

Herkku said:


> I think that the first recording of Messiah where I realized that the chorus can be crystal clear was conducted by Philippe Herreweghe. *But, please, no contratenors in Messiah*!


He he, funny, I prefer my Messiahs with countertenors, and this preference came about specifically after hearing Scholl sing "He was despised".

Why are you so opposed to them, Herkku?


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## DarkAngel (Aug 11, 2010)

mamascarlatti said:


> He he, funny, *I prefer my Messiahs with countertenors*, and this preference came about specifically after hearing* Scholl* sing "He was despised".
> 
> Why are you so opposed to them, Herkku?


The cat is out of the bag already......I with you Mama S
My very favorite desert island Messiah *with countertenor Andreas Scholl*, listened again today



*A Messiah of sublime beauty, the soloists are a dream cast. *
The Harmonia Mundi recording is extremely fine with deep soundstage and rich full sound that blooms nicely. Christie is in no hurry and leads a somewhat relaxed but very spiritually inspired performance.

The two sopranos Schlick and Piau give us arias of rare beauty and heavenly tone.
Sandrine Piau's imaginative ornamenting is just superb, the florish that closes aria "daughter of zion" is worth the price by itself, wow

The tenor Mark Padmore has a golden clear tone that is very sympathetic to the alto of countertenor Andreas Scholl who seems to be from another world, really sounds like the voice of an angel so sweet and smoothly textured.......can't imagine Herkku being opposed to this vocal treatment


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## Aksel (Dec 3, 2010)

I also prefer the Messiah with countertenors. And my preference came after hearing/seeing Bejun Mehta sing "Oh, Thou that Tellest Good Tidings To Zion".
And I do recommend watching the Theater an der Wien staging of it a few years ago. There are clips of it floating around YouTube and apparently, a DVD has also been released.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

I've just been getting back to listening to this great work after a lapse of almost 20 years! Malcolm Sargent's 1959 account was the one that I heard first as a child (my mother bought a tape of highlights). I still love that big and grand sound of all the massed choirs, it lifts me up to the heavens. But recently, I have been able to hear the complete work on a friend's set, conducted by Gardiner. I also like the minimalist Dublin version, as done by the Scholars Baroque Ensemble on Naxos. So really, I don't have an absolute favourite version, but I am impressed when it is done by a larger orchestra and the massed choirs.

I am excited about going to see this work live this weekend, for the first time ever! It'll be a performance put on for charity by Radio Community Chest at Sydney town hall. I'm not sure what version of the six out there they will perform. I am planning to make this a yearly ritual, it's a nice way of rounding off the year. A friend is coming as well, and we'll have our last get together for the year after with dinner & drinks at a pub. So I think that this work has now taken on many positive conotations in my mind, associated with wrapping up the year and celebrating & reviewing a bit one's small achievements, etc...


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

Andre said:


> I've just been getting back to listening to this great work after a lapse of almost 20 years! Malcolm Sargent's 1959 account was the one that I heard first as a child (my mother bought a tape of highlights). I still love that big and grand sound of all the massed choirs, it lifts me up to the heavens. But recently, I have been able to hear the complete work on a friend's set, conducted by Gardiner. I also like the minimalist Dublin version, as done by the Scholars Baroque Ensemble on Naxos. So really, I don't have an absolute favourite version, but I am impressed when it is done by a larger orchestra and the massed choirs.
> 
> I am excited about going to see this work live this weekend, for the first time ever! It'll be a performance put on for charity by Radio Community Chest at Sydney town hall. I'm not sure what version of the six out there they will perform. I am planning to make this a yearly ritual, it's a nice way of rounding off the year. A friend is coming as well, and we'll have our last get together for the year after with dinner & drinks at a pub. So I think that this work has now taken on many positive conotations in my mind, associated with wrapping up the year and celebrating & reviewing a bit one's small achievements, etc...


Here in the United States many of the performances of this work this time of the year are sing-along performances which is great fun. Do you guys do it like this as well?


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## DarkAngel (Aug 11, 2010)

> Originally Posted by *HarpsichordConcerto*
> _Andre, there are plenty of excellent recordings of The Messiah, which I must admit, I have yet to experience a "bad" HIP recording of. The standard now on this masterpiece by HIP is consistently high that each version I own and have sampled seem to convince me that this masterpiece deserves all the attention that it commands when a record label releases one on CD._
> 
> _I have (all are HIP):-_
> ...


Have you heard the newer Sixteen/Christophers Messiah on Coro........
Most people seem to like this more than the older Hyperion release



The *Pinnock Archiv* used to be my very favorite version, as you say very solid with great sound. As time passed I now like a couple versions even more like the Christie/HM version above


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## Herkku (Apr 18, 2010)

> Why are you so opposed to them, Herkku?


I'm not. I love David Daniels's "Scherza infida!", but in this particular instance I prefer a female alto. At least I haven't heard a recording that would have had changed this.


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## DarkAngel (Aug 11, 2010)

> _(1) The *Academy of Ancient Music / Christopher Hogwood* (L'Oiseau-Lyre label, *note this is a different recording *to the one mentioned by StlukesguildOhio above. It was the first ever HIP recording). Solid musicology throughout. 1754 Foundling Hospital version. Soloists include Emma Kirkby._


Although this is not my very favorite version I cannot imagine ever being without it, I have had this for very long time. Emma Kirkby only has 2-3 arias with the majority of soprano work handled by Judith Nelson, but a great team here that never fails to impress.

The standout feature for me is the all male choir with boys handling alto section and older men filling in other sections, some very memorable choral tracks! Hogwood and AAM just sound glorious, what great string tone with Hugget, Mackintosh etc in group, Simon Preston on organ. There is a DVD also available.......

_














_


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## Rangstrom (Sep 24, 2010)

Keep 'em coming, I'm in the market for a new recording.

I have no musical talent, but my wife sings and plays the piano. For years she was first soprano in a chamber choir that did a lot of Bach and Handel. They had a dinner one year for the retiring conductor and at one point during dinner the chorus totally on a whim--no rehearsal, no scores, no instruments--broke into the Hallelujah chorus to serenade the man of honor. I was sitting in the middle (no I did not try to sing) and it was an incredible experience. I've had a soft spot for the Messiah ever since.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

Almaviva said:


> Here in the United States many of the performances of this work this time of the year are sing-along performances which is great fun. Do you guys do it like this as well?


I've never heard of any sing-along performances of _The Messiah _here Down Under. Yes, sounds like a bit of fun, but I'm more into being a "passive" observer of what goes on on stage rather than getting in there and contributing myself...


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## Guest (Dec 17, 2010)

DarkAngel said:


>


This is also my current favorite recording. I also have Gardiner on Phillips, Harnoncourt on Teldec, Pinnock on Archiv. All HIP recordings. Can't have too many.


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## DarkAngel (Aug 11, 2010)

Herkku said:


> I'm not. I love David Daniels's "Scherza infida!", but in this particular instance I prefer a female alto. At least I haven't heard a recording that would have had changed this.


This is only youtube I could find of Andreas Scholl singing Messiah aria with Barbara Schlick on the Christie HM version discussed above........(sound starts at 17 seconds)

Scholl

Whats not to like.......


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

Aksel said:


> I also prefer the Messiah with countertenors. And my preference came after hearing/seeing Bejun Mehta sing "Oh, Thou that Tellest Good Tidings To Zion".
> And I do recommend watching the Theater an der Wien staging of it a few years ago. There are clips of it floating around YouTube and apparently, a DVD has also been released.


Yes, I've got this and enjoyed it, Behjun mehta and Richard Croft particularly.


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## DarkAngel (Aug 11, 2010)

DarkAngel said:


> The two sopranos Schlick and Piau give us arias of rare beauty and heavenly tone.
> *Sandrine Piau's imaginative ornamenting is just superb, the florish that closes aria "daughter of zion" is worth the price by itself*, wow


Someone has kindly posted a youtube of this very aria, sample sound overloads at peak climaxes......
but you get the idea 

Sandrine Piau


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## DarkAngel (Aug 11, 2010)

The Rene Jacobs/HM version could have been one of my top 3-4 Messiahs, has many good things going on with with great clarified orchestral textures of smaller group, exciting dramatic sound with nice choral work, nice deluxe clamshell box and booklet......

The problem for me is one of the female soloists alto Patricia Bardon is just too matronly sounding fighting to hold back that vibrato, especially with the HIP overall sound is just not a good match and am surprised Rene jacobs choose her......the soprano sounds much better Kerstin Avemo and she is in perfect harmony vocally with overall work.

This is a countertenor version (as Herkku grimaces) using Lawrence Zazzo, but he is not in same league as Andreas Scholl for me, so for several reasons this is a tier below the very best versions for me like my reference Christie/HM


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## Herkku (Apr 18, 2010)

DarkAngel said:


> This is only youtube I could find of Andreas Scholl singing Messiah aria with Barbara Schlick on the Christie HM version discussed above


I have to admit that Scholl has a very beautiful voice. Perhaps I must change my opinion on this. But the contratenor must sound "funny"!


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## karenpat (Jan 16, 2009)

Besides the staged version under the baton of Spinosi - I'm nuts about it, I think it's brilliant and have mentioned it before in other threads - I like this version released last year I think.








This is also with a countertenor (Iestyn Davies) singing the alto part.


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## DarkAngel (Aug 11, 2010)

karenpat said:


> Besides the staged version under the baton of Spinosi - I'm nuts about it, I think it's brilliant and have mentioned it before in other threads - I like this version released last year I think.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I purchased that new Messiah last year after sampling everything I could find........*a winner for me also*.

The singers are unknown to me but deliver outstanding results, clarified transparent orchestral and vocal textures with great recorded sound on Hyperion label, and sold at reduced price level. No real obvious faults and although not my very favorite ranks close to the top for me in extremely competitive field of contenders


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## DarkAngel (Aug 11, 2010)

karenpat said:


> *Besides the staged version under the baton of Spinosi - I'm nuts about it*, I think it's brilliant and have mentioned it before in other threads - I like this version released last year I think.


What can you tell us about the *Spinosi DVD performance*..........

Mama S and Askel seem to also have it from post above perhaps they can tell us more.....


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## Aksel (Dec 3, 2010)

It's a staging of the Messiah where they've added some kind of plot. As far as I remember, it's centred around three families and I think there was a feud of some sort. But I don't remember. It's a long time since I've seen it. But it is actually quite wonderful.

Oh, and there is a girl who seems to sign all the singing. And the choreography of the chorus is hilarious at times. Especially "For Onto us a Child Is Born".


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

Aksel said:


> It's a staging of the Messiah where they've added some kind of plot. As far as I remember, it's centred around three families and I think there was a feud of some sort. But I don't remember. It's a long time since I've seen it. But it is actually quite wonderful.
> 
> Oh, and there is a girl who seems to sign all the singing. And the choreography of the chorus is hilarious at times. Especially "For Onto us a Child Is Born".


Wow, weird. I think this production will upset many, who have with the Messiah a more religious-like experience.


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## Aksel (Dec 3, 2010)

Almaviva said:


> Wow, weird. I think this production will upset many, who have with the Messiah a more religious-like experience.


Oh, it does. It has set the YouTube comments on faiah!
But at least the singing is superb.


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## david johnson (Jun 25, 2007)

Beecham on RCA...great fun and a terror to purists


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## DarkAngel (Aug 11, 2010)

KP has inspired me to again play the Layton/Hyperion Messiah and it is even better than I had remembered. I like it better than the Rene Jacobs/HM mentioned above and decided to compare it today the the award winning much raved (at Amazon) Dunedin Consort/Linn version

I understand why people like the great sounding (audiophile boutique Linn label release) Dunedin performance but I it lacks something for me.......live emotion.
Seems a bit rigid, like an analytically precise studio session, empirically it is all there but I am not engaged. Hard to sense this in isolation, but when you play the Layton version later in the day you see something is not quite there

The Layton seem like spontaneous free flowing live music making.....it is alive and joyous, heartbreaking, beautiful but without feeling controlled. I will have to elevate this further up the ranks to top 3 selection perhaps, at reduced price very highly recommended, modern Hyperion sound quality is very clear and I like all the soloists.

Alas Layton is another countertenor version, we are driving Herkku crazy


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

DarkAngel said:


> What can you tell us about the *Spinosi DVD performance*..........
> 
> Mama S and Askel seem to also have it from post above perhaps they can tell us more.....


Here is my review from the current watching thread:

_So, how do you stage the Messiah?

Well, if you are Claus Guth you invent a story about 3 men (and their families), one of whom takes his own life, and show the events leading up to the suicide - christenings, adultery, drunkenness - and the aftermath at the funeral and beyond. Emotions are underlined by the words in the different arias, the chorus comments on developments, and a mysterious sign language performer "says" things in a language that presumably no one in the audience understands, as if they did they wouldn't be able to listen to music.

It kind of works, and certainly makes you think about the meaning of what is being sung in a way that you might not at a concert performance. The cast is very fine, particularly Richard Croft (more in his element here than as Loge), Florian Boesch and Bejun Mehta.

An interesting experience and of course you can't go wrong with the music. _


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## DarkAngel (Aug 11, 2010)

Here is my CD collection of Messiahs......if you see one you want to discuss just let me know. The one next to Layton/Hyperion is a 1CD highlights of Suzuki/BIS.....the full version is insanely expensive

You already know my very favorite Messiah to date is the Christie/HM

Also intesting I have purged my collection of any version dating before 1980, after hearing the Hogwood AAM and a few others decided I cannot go back to the grand large modern orchestra versions










I did order the Sixteen Christophers/CORO I mentioned above since I liked the sound samples, that has been my only Messiah purchase this year......

The Minkowski performance is so extreme I just keep it around to remind me what the outer limits are


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

DarkAngel said:


> Here is my CD collection of Messiahs......if you see one you want to discuss just let me know. The one next to Layton/Hyperion is a 1CD highlights of Suzuki/BIS.....the full version is insanely expensive
> 
> You already know my very favorite Messiah to date is the Christie/HM
> 
> ...



This is nuts, man! May I suggest that you change your screen name to MM - for Messiah Maniac?:devil:


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## DarkAngel (Aug 11, 2010)

Almaviva said:


> This is nuts, man! May I suggest that you change your screen name to MM - for Messiah Maniac?:devil:


On the surface seems excessive..............

But collecting clasical CDs for 20+ years and buy 1 Messiah each year that is what you end up with :lol:

Even more excesive is my Mahler and Beethoven symphony sets, but we will not go there


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## HarpsichordConcerto (Jan 1, 2010)

DarkAngel, that's an impressive collection of _The Messiah_!

There are a few that have been on my "to buy" list. These are Paul McCreesh (I guess because McCreesh's _Saul, Solomon_ and _Theodora_ are first class, all of those I have), William Christie, and the Dunedin Consort/John Butt (apparently the original Dublin version).

I guess I should mention a sixth version that I have: it is an arrangement of the work by Mozart, sung in German when Mozart was asked to "modernise" it for a Classical Viennese audience.


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## DarkAngel (Aug 11, 2010)

HarpsichordConcerto said:


> There are a few that have been on my "to buy" list. These are Paul McCreesh (I guess because McCreesh's _Saul, Solomon_ and _Theodora_ are first class, all of those I have), William Christie, and the Dunedin Consort/John Butt (apparently the original Dublin version).


As you would expect *I say get the Christie/HM right away*..........

McCreesh is great for me I love that Messiah, but I must mention he takes some parts faster than some people will like..........especially if you are from the "old school" but not to the extremes of Minkowski who seems too fast by any measure

I also agree that McCreesh has fabulous portfolio of Handel work, those oratorios are stand outs for sure

The Dunedin Consort is loved by many but I expressed my reservations above.......


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## Poppin' Fresh (Oct 24, 2009)

This is the only version I have at the moment:










I enjoy it thoroughly, but will eventually pick up another. Probably either Trevor Pinnock's or Martin Pearlman's.


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## DarkAngel (Aug 11, 2010)

DarkAngel said:


> Have you heard the newer Sixteen/Christophers Messiah on Coro........
> Most people seem to like this more than the older Hyperion release


*I recently received the newer Sixteen - Christophers Messiah but quickly sold it off.......*

Too relaxed tempos for my taste, great polyphony from sixteen choir as you would expect but not competitive for me overall with very best versions. Tenor Mark Padmore can be heard to better effect in the great Christie/HM Messsiah for instance

A better version for me featuring the Sixteen choir is the budget 2CD release conducted by Ton Koopman


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## DarkAngel (Aug 11, 2010)

*My top 5 Messiahs in order of preference (if I could only have 5)*

1) Christie / HM 

2) Layton / Hyperion 

3) McCreesh / Archiv 

4) Pinnock / Archiv 

5) Hogwood / Lyre


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## Bret (Apr 7, 2011)

*Messiah - picking up the thread...*

I'm really sorry to have missed this thread earlier - I'm a HUGE fan of _Messiah_, and have several dozen recordings of it, both HIP and otherwise. While I appreciate the great energy and clarity which has been brought to the Messiah 'warhorse' in recent decades, there is much to appreciate in older _Messiah_s; - and if you're looking for something different, here's my list of top recordings:

1959 Malcolm Sargent
1964 Otto Klemperer
1966 Colin Davis
1974 Charles Mackerras
1976 Neville Marriner
1991 Hermann Max
1994 Stephen Cleobury
2004 Wolfgang Katschner
2008 Frieder Bernius
2008 Stephen Layton

HONORABLE MENTION:
1982 Neville Marriner
1989 Andrew Parrott
1996 Masaaki Suzuki
1998 Ivars Taurins (highlights)
2000 Diego Fasolis
2006 Edward Higginbottom
2010 Jeanette Sorrell

The early 1950s-era Scherchen _Messiah_s also have much to recommend them.

In regards to non-HIP performances, there are tonal and textual colors and emphasis brought out is some of the slower, grander performances, which cannot be found anywhere else - they have a nobility and richness to some of the passages that are revelatory.

And while I love many HIP performances, they have a tendency towards coldness, and brittleness - the first Harry Christopher/The Sixteen recording suffers from this, as well as many others. And while 'warmth' and 'feeling' may not be as highly-regarded among baroque enthusiasts as technical prowess, in my view, unless this work possesses both qualities, both proficiency and a deep understanding and respect for the text - _Messiah_ cannot have it's full power.


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## Moscow-Mahler (Jul 8, 2010)

Bret said:


> there is much to appreciate in older _Messiah_s; - and if you're looking for something different, here's my list of top recordings:
> 
> 1976 Neville Marriner


I have this one. The soloists are great, despite the soprano's pronounciation of "thee" as "dee". The perfomance are very beautiful and theatrical. I think it's one of the best recordings by Marriner (I must admit that I calmed down to some of his other recordings including Brandenburg Concerti).


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## MAuer (Feb 6, 2011)

Still my favorite of all _Messiah_ recordings I've heard:










Sir Malcolm Sargent and the Huddersfield Choral Society (and wonderful Richard Lewis as tenor soloist).


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

DarkAngel said:


> I understand why people like the great sounding (audiophile boutique Linn label release) Dunedin performance but I it lacks something for me.......live emotion.
> Seems a bit rigid, like an analytically precise studio session, empirically it is all there but I am not engaged. Hard to sense this in isolation, but when you play the Layton version later in the day you see something is not quite there


Is the Layton CD a Dublin version of Messiah? If not, that may be part of the problem in your comparison. The Dublin Messiah is different, not as ornate in my opinion, and I like it much better than the regular (London Messiah) for that reason. I recently ran across this Dublin version Messiah and from the clips on Amazon it sounds very good, perhaps better than the Dunedin Consort's.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

This one had raves. Anyone heard it?


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

GregMitchell said:


> View attachment 33139
> 
> 
> This one had raves. Anyone heard it?


It's mentioned in post number 27.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

GregMitchell said:


> This one had raves. Anyone heard it?


I have it and love it, prefer it over the London version. I think the Marriner Dublin Messiah I posted above may be just as good or better.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

I would add one more thing. There is something about the soprano on the Dunedin Consort's Dublin Messiah. Her voice is very beautiful, but not ornamented. She sounds to me somewhat like a treble on the Higgenbottom Messiah.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

DarkAngel said:


> Here is my CD collection of Messiahs......if you see one you want to discuss just let me know.


What's with Hogwood. There seem to be two sets, one with two disks and one with three disks, but the covers are the same. Is this just different packaging?

I have five of the Messiah sets from your photo (Row1:#2&#4, R2:#3, R3:#1, R4:#3).

Two I had and got rid of (R2:#1 & R3:#2, counter tenors). I have had several others (not in your photo) I got rid of also, mostly also for counter tenors. I do have Pinnock--had it and got rid of it, but got it again. The counter tenor has only a few parts and there is a contralto, who in my opinion sounds way better than the counter tenor.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Florestan said:


> What's with Hogwood. There seem to be two sets, one with two disks and one with three disks, but the covers are the same. Is this just different packaging?
> 
> I have five of the Messiah sets from your photo (Row1:#2, R2:#3, R3:#1, R4:#3).
> 
> Two I had and got rid of (R2:#1 & R3:#2, counter tenors). I have had several others (not in your photo) I got rid of also, mostly also for counter tenors. I do have Pinnock--had it and got rid of it, but got it again. The counter tenor has only a few parts and there is a contralto, who in my opinion sounds way better than the counter tenor.


I do think it's a later release, as it easily fits on 2 CD'S.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Bret said:


> I'm really sorry to have missed this thread earlier - I'm a HUGE fan of _Messiah_, and have several dozen recordings of it, both HIP and otherwise. While I appreciate the great energy and clarity which has been brought to the Messiah 'warhorse' in recent decades, there is much to appreciate in older _Messiah_s; - and if you're looking for something different, here's my list of top recordings:
> 
> 1959 Malcolm Sargent
> 1964 Otto Klemperer
> ...


This kind of posts always intrigued me, one post and never been seen again.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

Pugg said:


> I do think it's a later release, as it easily fits on 2 CD'S.


Yes, it looks as though they wanted to put each of the three parts on separate disks, a bit persnickety but it will do.


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## DarkAngel (Aug 11, 2010)

Florestan said:


> What's with Hogwood. There seem to be two sets, one with two disks and one with three disks, but the covers are the same. Is this just different packaging?


The 3rd disc is a 24/96 blu ray audio of entire performance, plus you get a deluxe hardbook cover with expanded pages










Hogwood was such a revelation when burst on the scence in 1980, literally launched an entire rethink of performance practice for these works, still commands great respect near the top in very crowded field

I see that you try to avoid the Messiah's with counter tenor, unfortunately that will remove some of the very best Messiah's from consideration.........one of my awe inspiring moments comes from the Christie version (perhaps my very favorite Messiah) where counter tenor (alto) Scholl sings "he was despised" this rendition comes from a place beyond this earth


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

DarkAngel said:


> The 3rd disc is a 24/96 blu ray audio of entire performance, plus you get a deluxe hardbook cover with expanded pages
> 
> Hogwood was such a revelation when burst on the scence in 1980, literally launched an entire rethink of performance practice for these works, still commands great respect near the top in very crowded field
> 
> I see that you try to avoid the Messiah's with counter tenor, unfortunately that will remove some of the very best Messiah's from consideration.........one of my awe inspiring moments comes from the Christie version (perhaps my very favorite Messiah) where counter tenor (alto) Scholl sings "he was despised" this rendition comes from a place beyond this earth


I did see that blu ray 3 disk set, but the set I ordered used is three disks with each part of the Messiah on a separate disk, so that means there are three configurations of packaging (not counting the highlights sets--ugh).

Hogwood has the boy trebles in the choir, which I think is all male, so even though he does not have counter tenor soloists, they must be in the choir--I think I can handle them there better.

Yes, I am afraid that I have a problem with that counter tenor thing. Its me. Well maybe it will change as I keep listing to Pinnock--yes there is one great set with counter tenor I don't miss out on, but thankfully there also is a contralto on it.


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## DarkAngel (Aug 11, 2010)

Florestan said:


> *Hogwood has the boy trebles in the choir, which I think is all male*, so even though he does not have counter tenor soloists, they must be in the choir--I think I can handle them there better.
> 
> Yes, I am afraid that I have a problem with that counter tenor thing. Its me. Well maybe it will change as I keep listing to Pinnock--yes there is one great set with counter tenor I don't miss out on, but thankfully there also is a contralto on it.


Speaking of all boys choir, have you heard the Higginbottom on Naxos label, *uses all male voices and boy choir! *Soprano parts handled by "treble" soloists from boys choir, also uses counter tenor with Iestyn Davies

Not my favorite version, but as an extreme style in one direction worth hearing and owning in larger collection.....


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

DarkAngel said:


> Speaking of all boys choir, have you heard the Higginbottom on Naxos label, *uses all male voices and boy choir! *Soprano parts handled by "treble" soloists from boys choir, also uses counter tenor with Iestyn Davies
> 
> Not my favorite version, but as an extreme style in one direction worth hearing and owning in larger collection.....


I had the Higgenbottom. It is a nice set. Gave it away because I did not like the Contralto and the trebles, though nice, were not worth keeping the whole set. But for someone who wants all the variations, this is a must set as I understand Handel did have all male performances of Messiah.


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

I am intrigued by the idea that Messiah is considered on this thread to be an opera! Is it not an oratorio?


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## Guest (Nov 27, 2016)

Barbebleu said:


> I am intrigued by the idea that Messiah is considered on this thread to be an opera! Is it not an oratorio?


It is an oratorio .


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Barbebleu said:


> I am intrigued by the idea that Messiah is considered on this thread to be an opera! Is it not an oratorio?


As Traverso said, but do not loose sleep over it, it's not that important.


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## DarkAngel (Aug 11, 2010)

The Handel English language oratorios are sometimes given opera like stage performances in modern times......


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

Traverso said:


> It is an oratorio .


I knew that. I probably should have indicated that my question was rhetorical. I was just curious as to why it was being discussed on the opera forum rather than the religious music one.


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

Pugg said:


> As Traverso said, but do not loose sleep over it, it's not that important.


Don't worry Pugg, nothing said on this forum ever makes me lose sleep.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Barbebleu said:


> Don't worry Pugg, nothing said on this forum ever makes me lose sleep.


That's the right attitude.:cheers:


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## gardibolt (May 22, 2015)

I have a fondness for both the Cleobury and the Higginbottom sets.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

gardibolt said:


> I have a fondness for both the Cleobury and the Higginbottom sets.


Which Cleobury? There are at least two different sets.


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## Guest (Nov 30, 2016)

Florestan said:


> Which Cleobury? There are at least two different sets.


I hope this one is meant.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

^  There are a half dozen or so different covers for that recording (previous post). Here is one:









But the other recording with different singers is this:


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

I found this handy list of Messiah sets with brief reviews on Amazon:
https://www.amazon.com/gp/richpub/listmania/fullview/RSMEWTU9ZPIQM


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## DarkAngel (Aug 11, 2010)

Florestan said:


> I found this handy list of Messiah sets with brief reviews on Amazon:
> https://www.amazon.com/gp/richpub/listmania/fullview/RSMEWTU9ZPIQM


Lists are fun to see what other people think, his top pick of Rene Jacobs definitely has vivid clear orchestration using a smaller group, but the group of singers as a whole would not make my top 5.....I especially am not impressed with alto (excessive vibrato) and counter tenor used, the small choral group is very nice however

The Pinnock/Archiv and especially Christie/HM still reign supreme, Andreas Scholl as counter tenor (for Christie) reaches such sublime heights of beauty and emotional pathos that all others compete for runner up, the two soprano leads for Christie have never been surpassed (must go back to Emma Kirkby to find a comparable rendition)

The newest version I have heard that takes it's place as an elite performance is the Layton Messiah and perhaps the Dunedin Consort.......I still check all the new ones waiting for another to surface


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

Right now I am very focused into this one as an excellent set:


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## DarkAngel (Aug 11, 2010)

^^^ That is a really great "hidden" Messiah that flys below the radar with unkown singers, I like everything about it and would rank it higher than the Rene Jacobs for instance...........


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

DarkAngel said:


> ^^^ That is a really great "hidden" Messiah that flys below the radar with unkown singers, I like everything about it and would rank it higher than the Rene Jacobs for instance...........


Thanks for confirming my read on this set. I picked it up at my local music store last year on a whim after checking out the four soloists' voices. The are going for a reasonable price online too and I just ordered one for $5 shipped in very good condition to give to a friend. It seems like the perfect Messiah to give as a gift to someone who does not have a Messiah set because it it not too ornate, yet beautifully sung.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

Two Messiah sets arrived in the mail this week.

I like this one a lot, but they left out two bits ("Unto Which of the Angles" and "Let all the Angels of God Worship Him").









This one does not work so well for me. There are two sopranos and one of them is great but the other sounds like a young girl. The tenor does not suit me either. Rest is pretty good though.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Just listening to McCreesh's Messiah. Fantastic with good soloists. Choice between this and Pinnock which I also have


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

Attended Messiah last night. Now listening to this one:


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

OK, HIPsters, this is the opera forum, and as we all know, Messiah ain't an opera. As we might also know, not every singer we enjoy in Baroque music makes a career in opera, or could make much of an effect in an opera written after 1790. On the other hand, there are great opera singers who can sing Baroque music splendidly. So let's have some fun - and possibly amazement - hearing what Jon Siegmund Florestan Tristan Vickers can do with "Ev'ry valley."






Now how many of your adenoidal British mini-tenors can set your pulses racing like Jon Boy? Jus' askin.'


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Woodduck said:


> OK, HIPsters, this is the opera forum, and as we all know, Messiah ain't an opera. As we might also know, not every singer we enjoy in Baroque music makes a career in opera, or could make much of an effect in an opera written after 1790. On the other hand, there are great opera singers who can sing Baroque music splendidly. So let's have some fun - and possibly amazement - hearing what Jon Siegmund Florestan Tristan Vickers can do with "Ev'ry valley."
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Vickers is great in Beecham's Messiah. I always put in on when HIP bores come!


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

Woodduck said:


> OK, HIPsters, this is the opera forum, and as we all know, Messiah ain't an opera.


This one is a bit operatic, given the soloists. And I am liking this one more and more as i keep listening to it.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

Listening to this one now, and not finding it to be one that I will spend a lot more time with.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

Right now my favorites include Westenburg, Pearlman, Bonynge, Solti, Somary, Wilberg, and McCreesh. Perhaps Davis too.


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## Rogerx (Apr 27, 2018)

Fritz Kobus said:


> Right now my favorites include Westenburg, Pearlman, Bonynge, Solti, Somary, Wilberg, and McCreesh. Perhaps Davis too.


Did you hear the Andrew Davis set with Kathleen Battle, Florence Quivar, John Aler & Samuel Ramey

Toronto Mendelssohn Choir & Toronto Symphony Orchestra yet?
I played it the other day, surprisingly fresh.


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## MAS (Apr 15, 2015)

Cleobury for the chorus - men and boys, transparent, with clear articulation, exquisite dynamic control and the heavenly trebles, unmatched by any choral sopranos I've ever heard. Listen to "All we like sheep," or "Unto us child is born." Cleobury's direction sounds just right to me - the English have Händel in their blood. And the soloists aren't chopped liver, either! The sound is fine.

There is also a CD version, for those who might find the DVD distracting.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Fritz Kobus said:


> This one is a bit operatic, given the soloists. And I am liking this one more and more as i keep listening to it.


There was a much older one (my first Messiah) with the Mormons, and the soloists included Eileen Farrell. I liked it at age 14, but don't know what I'd think now.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

This was my first ever *Messiah*, recorded just before the HIP movement got under way, but making a nod in that direction. I have a soft spot for it and Baker is absolutely superb, though I'm not so keen on Paul Esswood, who shares some of the alto arias with her.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Tsaraslondon said:


> This was my first ever *Messiah*, recorded just before the HIP movement got under way, but making a nod in that direction. I have a soft spot for it and Baker is absolutely superb, though I'm not so keen on Paul Esswood, who shares some of the alto arias with her.


This was my first Mesxiah I bought as a lad. BasilLam's edition which added ornamentation. It was really revolutionary at the time. I still have very fond memories of it but unfortunately it is now out of the catalogue and hasn't been in there for years. A funny thing when certain other versions far less good are still available


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

I'm quite HIP when it comes to Handel and this set is pretty much perfect IMO:









N.


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

Tsaraslondon said:


> This was my first ever *Messiah*, recorded just before the HIP movement got under way, but making a nod in that direction. I have a soft spot for it and Baker is absolutely superb, though I'm not so keen on Paul Esswood, who shares some of the alto arias with her.


Are Baker's arias on one of the EMI compilation box sets? (I'm not sure I need another complete Messiah, but would love to have Baker's recordings from it.)

N.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

The Conte said:


> Are Baker's arias on one of the EMI compilation box sets? (I'm not sure I need another complete Messiah, but would love to have Baker's recordings from it.)
> 
> N.


The rendering of 'He was despised' is a highlight.






Note although the conductor is wrongly said to be Leppard it is Mackerras


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## Reichstag aus LICHT (Oct 25, 2010)

The Conte said:


> I'm quite HIP when it comes to Handel and this set is pretty much perfect IMO:
> 
> View attachment 127940


Agreed. It's one of my favourite recordings.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

Rogerx said:


> Did you hear the Andrew Davis set with Kathleen Battle, Florence Quivar, John Aler & Samuel Ramey
> 
> Toronto Mendelssohn Choir & Toronto Symphony Orchestra yet?
> I played it the other day, surprisingly fresh.


Yes, that is the Davis I mentioned. I should have mentioned Andrew since the Sir Colin is the one normally meant when one says Davis. I see in the Amazon listings for "Messiah Davis CD" that there is an Andrew Davis and another one with different singers with Sir Andrew Davis, so I wonder how many Davis' there are who have recorded Messiah.


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## Rogerx (Apr 27, 2018)

Fritz Kobus said:


> Yes, that is the Davis I mentioned. I should have mentioned Andrew since the Sir Colin is the one normally meant when one says Davis. I see in the Amazon listings for "Messiah Davis CD" that there is an Andrew Davis and another one with different singers with Sir Andrew Davis, so I wonder how many Davis' there are who have recorded Messiah.


Okay, no problem. :tiphat:


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## Reichstag aus LICHT (Oct 25, 2010)

Fritz Kobus said:


> I wonder how many Davis' there are who have recorded Messiah.


This site might help 

http://messiah-guide.com/recordings.html

It's reviewed just about every commercial recording of _Messiah_ ever made, and is still being updated.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

Reichstag aus LICHT said:


> This site might help
> 
> http://messiah-guide.com/recordings.html
> 
> It's reviewed just about every commercial recording of _Messiah_ ever made, and is still being updated.


Oh yeah, ha ha, the site I had posted before.









So there are five recordings, three by Colin Davis, one by Andrew Davis and one by Sir Andrew Davis.


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

Fritz Kobus said:


> Oh yeah, ha ha, the site I had posted before.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Andrew Davis and Sir Andrew Davis are the same person (I think), just the second one is after he put himself in a position where he risked having his ear chopped off by the Queen!

N.


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## RockyIII (Jan 21, 2019)

These are my two current favorite Messiah recordings:

soloists Harper, Watts, Wakefield, and Shirley-Quirk
London Symphony Choir
London Symphony Orchestra
Sir Colin Davis, conductor
1966/1993

soloists Doyle, Davies, Clayton, and Foster-Williams
Polyphony
Britten Sinfonia
Stephen Layton, conductor
2009


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

The Conte said:


> Andrew Davis and Sir Andrew Davis are the same person (I think), just the second one is after he put himself in a position where he risked having his ear chopped off by the Queen!
> 
> N.


Of course. The CD without "Sir" was before the potential ear chop. New issues of that one then should include the Sir. So Andrew has two recordings and Colin has three.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

Listening to this one now:


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Just listening to Suzuki’s version on Spotify. Certainly very good.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

The Conte said:


> Are Baker's arias on one of the EMI compilation box sets? (I'm not sure I need another complete Messiah, but would love to have Baker's recordings from it.)
> 
> N.


_Oh, thou that tellest_ and _He was despised_ are both in the 20CD Great Recordings box. Her version of _He was despised_ is quite the best I've ever heard.


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## Reichstag aus LICHT (Oct 25, 2010)

Fritz Kobus said:


> Oh yeah, ha ha, the site I had posted before.


Sorry. I didn't realise/remember.


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

Tsaraslondon said:


> _Oh, thou that tellest_ and _He was despised_ are both in the 20CD Great Recordings box. Her version of _He was despised_ is quite the best I've ever heard.


A friend who got the 20 CD Great Recordings box gave me their copy of the smaller 'The beloved mezzo' set (there's too much music that isn't to my taste in the 20 CD set no matter who is singing it). The smaller set doesn't have _Oh, thou that tellest_, but does include _He was despised_ at least.

N.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

Reichstag aus LICHT said:


> Sorry. I didn't realise/remember.


Quite all right. I didn't remember either. Appreciate the reminder.


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## JimZipCode (Feb 16, 2021)

HarpsichordConcerto said:


> (2) The English Concert / Trevor Pinnock. Another solid version, with the long da capo version of Why do the nations. Soloists come out a bit stronger than Hogwood's.





DarkAngel said:


> The *Pinnock Archiv* used to be my very favorite version, as you say very solid with great sound.





DarkAngel said:


> Here is my CD collection of Messiahs ... if you see one you want to discuss just let me know.





SixFootScowl said:


> I do have Pinnock--had it and got rid of it, but got it again.


Reviving an old thread here - I have an extremely random question.

In the Pinnock recording of the Messiah, with the English Concert & Choir: does anyone know if the choir includes women? Or is it all male trebles?
(I know a couple of the soloists are women. I'm just asking about the chorus.)​


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## wkasimer (Jun 5, 2017)

JimZipCode said:


> Reviving an old thread here - I have an extremely random question.
> 
> In the Pinnock recording of the Messiah, with the English Concert & Choir: does anyone know if the choir includes women? Or is it all male trebles?
> (I know a couple of the soloists are women. I'm just asking about the chorus.)​


I just listened to it. The sopranos sound like women; the altos sound like countertenors.


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## JimZipCode (Feb 16, 2021)

wkasimer said:


> I just listened to it. The sopranos sound like women; the altos sound like countertenors.


_THAT_ makes sense. Explains why in some choral passages I think I hear women, and in others I think I hear only male trebles.

I looked at a web site today that listed their membership (at some point in time; not necessarily current, or when Messiah was recorded). The sopranos were all ladies names. The altos were a mix of men's & women's names.
https://www.bach-cantatas.com/Bio/English-Concert.htm​
Thanks!


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## mparta (Sep 29, 2020)

wkasimer said:


> I just listened to it. The sopranos sound like women; the altos sound like countertenors.


bad news for the altos of they're women. Stably bad news if they're men.


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## MAS (Apr 15, 2015)

I love the King's College version, which has an all male chorus. The soprano and alto parts are sung by young boys.t They are soooo good!


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## wkasimer (Jun 5, 2017)

MAS said:


> I love the King's College version, which has an all male chorus. The soprano and alto parts are sung by young boys.t They are soooo good!


I confess that I'm not a big fan of boys' choruses in Messiah, or of boy sopranos singing Handel and Bach in general, either as choristers or (especially) soloists.


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## JimZipCode (Feb 16, 2021)

wkasimer said:


> I confess that I'm not a big fan of boys' choruses in Messiah, or of boy sopranos singing Handel and Bach in general, either as choristers or ...


Same. I like the sound of women in the chorus. I sang with a local choir for a few years, including a Messiah concert (highlights) every December; I guess it's what I'm used to.

I _hear_ the so-called "purity" of boy sopranos. But it sounds thin to me; without body.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

I'm with you. I don't think I've ever heard a child's voice, male or female, that has much expressive potential. Of course we now have women doing Baroque music who seem to want to sound like children. "HIP" has some questionable practices.


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## JimZipCode (Feb 16, 2021)

wkasimer said:


> I just listened to it. The sopranos sound like women; the altos sound like countertenors.





JimZipCode said:


> _THAT_ makes sense. Explains why in some choral passages I think I hear women, and in others I think I hear only male trebles.
> 
> I looked at a web site today that listed their membership (at some point in time; not necessarily current, or when Messiah was recorded). The sopranos were all ladies names. The altos were a mix of men's & women's names.
> https://www.bach-cantatas.com/Bio/English-Concert.htm​
> Thanks!


Confirmed, if anyone is still interested. I found the booklet from the set. Here's the listing of chorus members:








The ten sopranos all have lady's names. The seven altos are a mix, 4 male names and 3 female names.
(I looked up Ahley Stafford, he's a countertenor.)


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