# Are Bax Symphonies distinct enough from each other?



## golfer72 (Jan 27, 2018)

Would like opinions on the following for those familiar with the Symphonies of Arnold Bax. If you were placed into a Bax Symphony at random how long would you have to listen to figure out which Symphony it was? I like Bax but sometimes feel his Symphonies are too much alike as opposed to say Beethoven who i feel you would quickly be able to identify which Symphony it was. Maybe i just dont know them well enough. Interested in members thoughts on this.


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## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

You have a good point. They do sound a lot alike.


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## gvn (Dec 14, 2019)

Yes, a very interesting point, and by no means limited to Bax!

Throughout music history, some composers have been restlessly determined to find new worlds to conquer every day, whereas other composers have treated each composition as a fresh attempt on the same citadel as its predecessors. Hence all the jokes about Vivaldi composing the same concerto 500 times, Palestrina composing the same Mass 100 times, Bruckner composing the same symphony 9 times, etc. (Nor is the phenomenon limited to music. There are equivalent jokes about Jane Austen writing the same novel 6 times, Cézanne painting the same still life X hundred times, etc.)

Sheer bliss, for those who feel that attempts on that particular citadel are always enjoyable; sheer boredom, for those who don't!



golfer72 said:


> Maybe i just dont know them well enough.


I think familiarity _does_ make a difference. No matter how strong the family resemblance between a composer's symphonies, their individual characteristics inevitably become more noticeable with repeated hearings.

50 years ago I couldn't have recognized any Bruckner symphony (except the scherzo of the 4th, which I knew from childhood). Now I look back at my old self with blank astonishment that anyone could possibly mistake any Bruckner symphony for any other. On reflection, I'd say the same about Bax. (But it has taken longer, because I haven't heard them as often as Bruckner's.) Not so sure about Vivaldi, though!


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## arpeggio (Oct 4, 2012)

My feeling is that Bax is a composer who wrote one symphony with twenty-one movements and I love every one of them.


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## gvn (Dec 14, 2019)

Ah! Found it. I knew I'd seen it somewhere on the internet. Here is a sketch by Richard R. Adams of the distinctive characters of Bax's various symphonies:



> Far from being carbon copies, each symphony clearly stands out from the others. A superficial description of each symphony might go as follows: the First Symphony is a bitter lament; the Second Symphony is violently catastrophic; the Third Symphony is beautiful and otherworldly; the Fourth Symphony is an ecstatic celebration of love; the Fifth Symphony is legendary and northern in mood; the Sixth Symphony is a summation of all that has come before and the Seventh is nostalgic and resigned. The first four symphonies are richly colored and lush while the last three symphonies are lean and even terse.... The Sixth is, along with the Seventh, the most formally satisfying of Bax's symphonies but the Second is unquestionably Bax's most personal and harrowing score.


As Adams says, this is only a "superficial description"; every phrase in it would presumably need adjustment & qualification, and music can't adequately be described in words anyhow. But some of his comments might possibly be some help in sorting out one bit of Bax from the next bit.


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## golfer72 (Jan 27, 2018)

gvn said:


> Yes, a very interesting point, and by no means limited to Bax!
> 
> Throughout music history, some composers have been restlessly determined to find new worlds to conquer every day, whereas other composers have treated each composition as a fresh attempt on the same citadel as its predecessors. Hence all the jokes about Vivaldi composing the same concerto 500 times, Palestrina composing the same Mass 100 times, Bruckner composing the same symphony 9 times, etc. (Nor is the phenomenon limited to music. There are equivalent jokes about Jane Austen writing the same novel 6 times, Cézanne painting the same still life X hundred times, etc.)
> 
> ...


Great response! Thanks


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## golfer72 (Jan 27, 2018)

Great responses so far! Thanks and i hope there are more coming


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## Ich muss Caligari werden (Jul 15, 2020)

I can strongly recommend Ian Lace's discerning review of them, on the Sir Arnold Bax Website, despite the author's antipathy toward paragraph indentations! Includes insights from prominent conductors.

http://arnoldbax.com/the-bax-symphonies-revisited-an-article-by-ian-lace/


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## amfortas (Jun 15, 2011)

The Chandos collection of the complete symphonies includes an hour-long interview with conductor Vernon Handley, in which he discusses each work. I can't recall now whether it left me feeling they were distinct from one another.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

If you love Bax you probably find his works different enough. If you don't, you probably don't. Having been away from Bax for years now, I have to admit that his music all sort of melts together in memory into a sort of superrich sauce, but I'm not sure whether you could transfer movements from one symphony to another and get away with it, as you could with a lot of 18th-century works or, maybe, some Bruckner scherzos.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

golfer72 said:


> Maybe i just dont know them well enough. Interested in members thoughts on this.


I'd say that's the most likely reason. But unlike Sibelius, and Nielsen who have a similar number of symphonies, I can't seem to retain much of Bax's works even though I own the Bryden Thomson set and have listened to the symphonies a number of times. I finally tried a different conductor by purchasing No.6 on Naxos. I'll have to give that CD a couple more spins to see if I have better luck with any content retention.


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## golfer72 (Jan 27, 2018)

Thanks everyone for their insight and suggestions. I have some things to investigate now. Much appreciated


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

"All Bach's last movements are like the running of a sewing machine." -Arnold Bax


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## golfer72 (Jan 27, 2018)

Hmmm interesting !


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## Vasks (Dec 9, 2013)

For many years I had only one Bax symphony (#6). More recently I have a complete set. I'm sure I could within a minute tell you if it's #6 or not. 

But if it's not, I would not be able to differentiate which one of the othes it is. 

Bottom line. Get to know one at a time intimately and you'll be able to distinguish.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

*"AbsolutelyBaxing"*

We should learn from AbsolutelyBaching's example. He's amazing:



AbsolutelyBaching said:


> hammeredklavier said:
> 
> 
> > 50 randomly selected excerpts from Bach cantatas:
> ...


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## John Lenin (Feb 4, 2021)

No... but neither are the symphonies of many minor and major composers. Many Haydn symphonies sound pretty similar... but Bax's problem with his symphonies was failing to give any of them 'a clear individual voice'. He was too episodic.... he failled to develop ideas as say Sibelius did. Bax simply moved on to the next tune.


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