# Best Bach Cantata set



## Amfibius

There seems to be no existing Bach cantata thread, so I thought I would start one.

I have been an avid collector of Bach's Cantatas for many years. Somebody described these as "the largest body of great music which is largely undiscovered by most music listeners", and I would have to emphatically agree. The problem is that there are so many of them - so only a few popular ones seem to get much air time. But trust me, some of the less popular ones are just as good!

I have the following complete Cantata works in my collection:

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Karl Richter Cantata Box Set (complete)









Harnoncourt / Koopman Cantata Box Set (complete)









John Eliot Gardiner Cantata set*

In addition to the above, I also have a smattering of CD's by Masaaki Suzuki, Karl Munchinger, and Helmuth Rilling.

The Suzuki can be safely dismissed. Rather bland and uninteresting, and the singing isn't very good.

My two favourites are the Richter and the Harnoncourt/Leonhardt. People who like HIP will not like Richter - his is a big orchestral sound, large choruses, powerful singers. He takes things in a slow, deliberate way which is decidedly last century - nobody conducts like that any more. But if you were to put away your biases - the music is stunningly effective. I would single out the choruses for praise - well sung, disciplined, textured, and inspired. Of all the versions, this one convinces you the most that the singers are all Christians who truly believe in what they are singing.

The best HIP version I own currently is the Harnoncourt/Leonhardt. I am not a sophisticated enough listener to tell who is conducting without looking at the liner notes, but the quality is pretty consistent throughout the set. The singing is equally as good as the Richter, but in a different way - whereas Richter is measured, disciplined, slow, and contemplative - the singers here are soulful, individual, romantic, and joyous. The boys choir is especially superb.

I have to give a big raspberry to the Gardiner for _not_ including a directory somewhere in the set. If you want to know where one particular Cantata is - you have to go online and look up a PDF.

I have to admit that I am still working my way through all 3 sets, even though I acquired the oldest one a few years ago.

What do people think of the Gardiner and the Rilling? I ask about the Gardiner - because he seems to be very highly rated yet I can't seem to get very involved. He seems rather bland and boring - he lacks a certain gravitas when needed (e.g. Wachet Auf), and the more joyous cantatas seem to be taken in a perfunctorily fast way without any hint of joy or celebration. Perhaps I am just not "getting" him.

As for the Rilling, I ask because I am eyeing a Rilling box set. So far, the few discs I have by him have been quite enjoyable.

Over to you, TC.


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## Manxfeeder

I might be in the minority here, but I have three Suzuki CDs and have also been disappointed; they are technically perfect but kind of sterile. I have two of Gardiner's pilgrimage CDs, and they have a perfunctory feeling about them. I have several of the Koopman series. I've been pretty happy with them, especially after Barbara Schlick left. I have one of the Harnoncourt CDs; I'll have to dig it out. 

I've pretty much settled for the Leusink set because it was affordable and the performances are energetic, although not top-tier. 

At this point, if there is a best set, I probably can't afford it anyway, so I'm resigned to be happy with what I have.


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## haydnfan

I think that Suzuki does a better job with the great works (passions, mass in b minor) than he does with the cantatas. Koopman has a cycle but is so expensive that I haven't even considered it.

Richter's recordings are good, but imo suffer from poor sound compared to the modern ones.

I think that the Harnoncourt/Leonhardt recordings are scrappy, enthusiastic but not polished enough and really proto-HIP instead of HIP. They try to put all of the pieces together but comes across as too rough hewn to me.

Now Leusink is also rough hewn but that's not my problem... my problem is that the soloists sound utterly bored. And while others think that Leusink cycle sounds passionate, it comes off as flat to me.

With Gardiner the early recordings have poor articulation and just sound incredibly bland and flat. I've heard that the later recordings are much better, but I have not heard any yet.

Rilling... I have not listened to yet. Someday.

What stands out to me are not complete cycles but the recordings of Herreweghe, Kuijken, and the newer Harnoncourt. Also there is a cd with Lorraine Hunt Lieberson that has some of the most heartfelt singing in any recording ever, buy this if you don't have it!










Bach wrote so many cantatas of variable quality from great to excellent to good to ok, that I don't recommend complete box sets except for Bach nuts (I'm now writing to the casual poster that's just looking in). What I would recommend are at least listening to the Ascension oratorios, bwv 82 and bwv 21. After that try the ratings guide, I think it's spot on, going from greatest to least and quit whenever you get bored:

http://www.classical.net/music/comp.lst/works/bachjs/rateindx.php


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## World Violist

I've tried out a few cycles of Bach's cantatas. I like Suzuki quite a lot, mostly because of the detail and space of the sound with the technical and musical perfection of the execution. If I want real personality, I'll go for Gardiner, since his set has that edge on it that I really like. With Gardiner, there are obviously minor technical gaffes (most of the set being one-offs with occasional patches from a couple hours' rehearsal prior in the space) but his vision is very consistent and very approachable. Even so, I'll come up with a movement that just doesn't click with me whatsoever.

I've heard a few of Richter's recordings...that isn't a full cycle, is it? I'd looked it up before and thought that it was about half of them. Anyway, I've heard his BWV 4, and it's stunning. Stayed in my head for days after. Gardiner is IMO more effective in the third movement "Den Tod..." because of his much slower tempo and differentiation between each verse based on the text, which I might add absolutely nobody else does.

That's about it. I've heard a few spare bits from the Harnoncourt/Leonhardt set, and I agree with those who call it a sort of rough-hewn proto-HIPsters. It's fine, from what little I've heard. But the main stumbling block for me is that they use boy singers, which aren't even historically correct since boys' voices broke far later in Bach's day, so they invariably would sound better then than now. What's the point of using boys if women and countertenors sound better anyway?

Koopman is a recent discovery for me, and I find it fascinating. It doesn't quite reach the heights of Gardiner, but it doesn't reach his lows either. He's very consistent, with characterful instrumentalists and singers. I'm interested in exploring this set further.

Whatever the case, I'm really happy I found Bach's cantatas in my teenage years, and I look forward to exploring them for the rest of my life, as I'm sure I can.


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## StlukesguildOhio

I largely agree with World Violist. I have yet to accumulate a single complete cycle, but I have about 6 or 7 of Suzuki's discs and I am very pleased with them. As WV suggests they have a clarity of space and an icy precision. I also have about 8 0r 9 sets of cantatas by Philippe Herreweghe which I find quite marvelous and include some excellent singers (Andreas Scholl comes immediately to mind). I can't speak much on Ton Koopman having only begun to listen to his Bach recordings on Spotify. What I have heard I find quite good... consistently polished... and I have found the same to be true of his Buxtehude recordings. With Gardiner I have about half of the new set recorded live in various venues around the world... and I also have 10 or 11 discs of his earlier recordings of the most famous cantatas. From what I have heard of any complete set, these have struck me as the most magnificent... consistently polished... yet muscular and lively... with some of the absolute best singers.

Beyond these... I have several dozen recordings of individual cantatas.

I have a couple recordings by Richter and while I enjoy the more "Romantic" approach to Bach from time to time, I don't think I could sit through the collected cantatas in such a form.

Among my favorite recordings I would include Monica Groop's performance of the alto cantatas:










As already mentioned, Lorraine Hunt Lieberson is a "must have":










As always, Anne Sofie von Otter is not to be missed:










Nor the marvelous voice of Thomas Quasthoff:










Hans Hotter is great for an unrivaled pathos and tragedy accompanied by the old-school full orchestra:










A grouping that has really impressed, however, in that of the Purcell Quartet on Chandos:










The list of the singers alone should be enough to make the Bach fanatic drool: Emma Kirkby, Michael Chance, Charles Daniels, etc...

And I have any number of other discs presenting various cantatas: Emma Fink, the EMI "two-fers" with Elly Ameling, Joan Sutherland, Dietrich Fischer-Dieskau, and Janet Baker, and several discs by Rifkin (quite good).

If I were to limit myself to a single whole set, I'd undoubtedly go with Gardiner... but luckilly, I don't need to so limit myself.


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## Guest

I'm going to third what WV and StLuke have said about the Suzuki set. I have 7 or so from that, and love them. Second in line would have to be those from Herreweghe. I have a smattering of recordings from Gardiner, Richter, and Koopman, which I generally like, but haven't knocked Suzuki out of the top spot for me.


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## HarpsichordConcerto

I think a lot of it, perhaps member Amfibius especially, come down to the type of interpretation one is looking for. Amfibius noted that Suzuki's and Gardiner's both sounded bland to him, but preferred the fuller sound of modern instruments and non-HIP. We're very lucky we have several choices to pick from. I have listened to some from Rilling's set and I think these were too heavy for me, as I prefer HIP (often wondering what these pieces could have sounded during Bach's church services, noting that many of these works were first performed in a church, with limited orchestral players and singers under his direction).

So, we're all looking for different angles when interpreting these masterpieces, even within practices. Suzuki sounds closest to me in spirit, as far as the first performances during a church service might have sounded, while Gardiner offers a more dramatic styled approach especially when it comes to instrumental and faster _da capo_ arias. The Koopman/Harnoncourt set, which I have been thinking whether or not to buy for a while now, don't often seem to have a consistency with HIP practice that we now expect, maybe because HIP have come a long way but still a very fine set from the many cantatas that I have listened to. Is the Gardiner set now complete? I thought he is still part way. Wait for the box.

Richter is the old school approach. Fascinating sounds, and remarkable for making these works sound Romantic-ish. I don't have any of these but enjoyed the few listens I had of some.


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## World Violist

HarpsichordConcerto said:


> Is the Gardiner set now complete? I thought he is still part way.


It's complete now, except there are some CDs that DG Arkiv released that SDG haven't got the rights to yet, but SDG is working on getting them for a complete integral set on their label.


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## HarpsichordConcerto

World Violist said:


> It's complete now, except there are some CDs that DG Arkiv released that SDG haven't got the rights to yet, but SDG is working on getting them for a complete integral set on their label.


Oooooo...!! I can almost imagine it now: the whole SDG set with the Arkiv Produktion re-packaged in a nice box with the booklets/notes, all ready for HarpsichordConcerto to click "Puchase" at the touch of a mouse button someday!! I hope SDG come to an agreement soon.


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## Amfibius

I will go and re-listen to my Suzuki discs this evening and see if my perception changes. HC you have a point - my preference for Bach leans towards a certain style - the less HIP it is, the better  You can shoot the philistine now!


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## haydnfan

I think I should relisten to some Suzuki cantatas as well! To defend Richter... he's not really romantic. If you hear those great Bach works performed by Klemperer, Jochum, Karajan etc... that is romantic. Richter specifically tried to use smaller forces and relative to the time, swift tempos, and avoided rubato. He put effort into performing Bach differently from his contemporaries in a way that he thought closer to how Bach would have been performed in his time.


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## World Violist

haydnfan said:


> I think I should relisten to some Suzuki cantatas as well! To defend Richter... he's not really romantic. If you hear those great Bach works performed by Klemperer, Jochum, Karajan etc... that is romantic. Richter specifically tried to use smaller forces and relative to the time, swift tempos, and avoided rubato. He put effort into performing Bach differently from his contemporaries in a way that he thought closer to how Bach would have been performed in his time.


And Richter is revered by many of the HIP conductors, Suzuki in particular. I read an article once about how Suzuki basically learned some Bach by listening to Richter when he was young. It's fascinating to listen for that sort of influence while listening to their recordings.


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## HarpsichordConcerto

The Richter set appears to be deleted? Wouldn't mind getting it. I just realised it is not a complete cantata cycle but a significant proportion nonetheless. I might be wrong. (The one with the portrait of Bach on the cover, as pictured by Amfibius in post #1).


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## Amfibius

Might be out of print, HC. Why don't you give Fish Records a ring and see if they can track down a copy for you? Mine was special order through my local CD shop (admittedly I did this a few years ago).


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## World Violist

I just decided to give a bit of the Harnoncourt/Leonhardt set a listen on its own terms, and I think my opinion of it just increased drastically. Listened to the first half or so of BWV 4. What strikes me about it is the sheer amount of spirit that _everyone involved_ go into this with. To be perfectly honest, I'm reminded of the Mahler recordings of around the 1950's and 60's. Not everything might be particularly correct, and there might be a fair amount of roughness, but they're doing the best they can, and mentally/spiritually, that's saying quite a lot. Might sound patronizing, but I'm not meaning it as such; that's just how I hear it.

So yeah, I'm taking this set a lot more seriously.


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## Itullian

For me it's Suzuki all 'round.
Rilling for the singing.


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## Bernard

Go to Classical Archives .com take a 14 day free trial and listen to all the different performers and make your own choice.
my first choice is Rilling, beautiful all around, to purchase I would buy the Leusink Version reasonable priced and actually finely done.


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## Handelian

Jus5 opening this again. There are some complete sets now very cheap at various places. Which one do you recommend?


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## Azol

Bach Cantatas
Budget Bach Cantatas

Check these two threads, some great recommendations there.

I have Rilling but would want Gardiner as an alternative. Both sets are availlable at cheap/moderate price ranges.


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