# How Well Do Orchestra Players Know the Music?



## MarkW (Feb 16, 2015)

Sometimes as we sit there listening to this wonderful wash of sound, we can forget how fragmentary a piece can be to an individual player or section -- often winds -- who play a phrase or several notes, and then count measures and come in again. As orchestras have grown since Classical times, and the stage acoustics of bigger halls can be problematic, it begs the question: How well do individual players know the music they contribute to and what the effect of their contribution is? And -- especially for a new work -- does it matter? Just a question.

[Aside: In an earlier life I worked for a college arts center, whose concert hall had superb stage acoustics. After a concert by a visiting orchestra who played Mozart and Brahms with divisi violins, one of the first violinists proclaimed, maybe jokingly, "I just heard the second violins for the first time!"]


----------



## Vasks (Dec 9, 2013)

We here at TC have a number of fine orchestra players to respond, but I thought you'd find my view of parts as a composer perhaps interesting. 

I compose band & orchestral pieces in full score from start to finish (no piano or reduce orchestra sketches). The one thing I try to do, as the piece progresses, is sense which instruments have not been used in a while so I can start anticipating a place coming up where they can contribute. And once the piece is finished I then create parts, and at that time I am surprised sometimes at how little some instrument's participation was. Therefore, sometimes I go back and figure how I can give them a little more to do by re-scoring.


----------



## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

This is my experience: you can tell immediately who knows the music either from playing it before or self study and those who don't know what's going on. I've played some pieces so many times that I don't bother counting rests or wait for a cue - I just know when to play and how my part fits in. The rookies are counting nervously, seemingly lost and don't see the big picture. 

Then there are young players who simply do not know the classical repertoire. They've spent too much time listening to pop music and have no idea how to play the classics. I still get irritated as hell when at the start of a rehearsal, the newly hired principal bassoonist turned to me and said, "is this any good? I've never heard of it." We were about to play the Beethoven 7th. She had no clue how the extensive and important bassoon solos were. She never bothered to listen to a recording, much less look at a score. So no, there are too many players today who simply don't know the repertoire. Oh, they can play all the complex etudes and multiphonics - but their musical knowledge is nil. One bassoonist I know of tells students bluntly, that if you have any hopes of playing in a major orchestra, put away the pop/rock/hip hop and immerse yourself in the standard repertoire. As a player you must know how your part fits in.

And yes, the hall matters greatly. I've played in great halls where you can hear everything - great experience. And I've played in bad halls, one without shells, ones that are dead and you can barely hear what's around you. Playing outside is terrible - you hear yourself and that's about it. Many conductors of the past were quite adamant: if you want a great orchestra they must rehearse and play in a superb hall. It's part of what makes Cleveland, Chicago, Detroit, Boston, Philadelphia and others so fine and why they play like one person. It's tragic that there are some great orchestras rehearse in crappy places and play in there, too. London is the music capital of the world, yet the Barbican, Festival Hall and Albert Hall all suffer from godawful acoustics.


----------



## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

Can't be much from the cymbals in this work. That is really Bernard Hermann conducting the LSO.


----------



## Lisztian (Oct 10, 2011)

mbhaub said:


> It's tragic that there are some great orchestras rehearse in crappy places and play in there, too. London is the music capital of the world, yet the Barbican, Festival Hall and Albert Hall all suffer from godawful acoustics.


Indeed, and that's the situation over here too. I remember being so excited the first time I went to hear a concert at the Sydney Opera House, and how disappointed I was and have been with the acoustics. They are the worst of any major hall in the country, yet it's the most iconic venue...Because it's so iconic I imagine it's where a lot of people go to hear CM live for the first time, and I can also imagine them being underwhelmed without realising what the problem is, thinking it's always like that.

I remember seeing Brahms 2nd PC and Sibelius Symphony No. 7 -two of my all time favourite works- there in the same concert, and it was boring compared to seeing works I'm only moderately fond of in the excellent town hall in Auckland.


----------



## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

Longtime orchestra musicians know the standard repertoire very thoroughly....you plug right into the flow, you know what is coming, what other instruments you're playing with, - you are essentially perceiving three different time "zones"....what has happened in the recent past, what is coming up immediately, and most important - what is happening precisely in the present..
Orchestra playing is like big "chamber music" playing....and the best conductors, encourage, insist on it....musicians must listen to each other- match each other in phrasing, intonation, dynamics....inaccuracies are generally corrected instantly...sometimes, additional attention is necessary - checking intonation on a particular note, agreeing on note lengths, dynamics, etc...
Experienced orchestra musicians also know how to adjust dynamics to the actual situation- sometimes piano/pianissimo must be enhanced, volume-wise to project thru....conductors do not always quiet the accompaniment adequately....
The standard repertoire is very familiar to longtime orchestra musicians, at times, too familiar....that's why it is so important to perform new works, unfamiliar repertoire, fresh challenges....it is most enjoyable and refreshing for the musicians to explore new music....
.


----------



## GucciManeIsTheNewWebern (Jul 29, 2020)

I've often wondered this myself, as to how many members know the intricacies of the score while others are just playing the notes on the page and are indifferent to how their part fits in or what's really going on. Like Heck148 said above there's obviously the seasoned veterans who know the repertoire intimately and even beyond the standard repertoire from being professional musicians for so many years, but it would be naïve to think that everyone in every professional orchestra worldwide has an undying passion for classical music, instead just being good at their instrument, milking it for all its worth by studying at conservatory, then playing all the notes on the page to go cash a check. There's probably way more people like mhbaub's bassoon girl than there should be.


----------



## Fabulin (Jun 10, 2019)

GucciManeIsTheNewWebern said:


> instead just being good at their instrument, milking it for all its worth by studying at conservatory, then playing all the notes on the page to go cash a check.


I never would have thought that making it to becoming a musician in a good orchestra can be a simple cash-grab scheme.

I know many classically-trained musicians though, who have little interest in classical repertoire music besides that for their own instrument, or who consider anything other than playing their own instrument to be a musical chore.


----------



## GucciManeIsTheNewWebern (Jul 29, 2020)

Fabulin said:


> I never would have thought that making it to becoming a musician in a good orchestra can be a simple cash-grab scheme.
> 
> I know many classically-trained musicians though, who have little interest in classical repertoire music besides that for their own instrument, or who consider anything other than playing their own instrument to be a musical chore.


Yeah, maybe I should have phrased that a bit differently since becoming a full-time musician is definitely _not_ a great strategy to get rich quick! :lol:

For those mentioned on your second line, there's definitely nothing wrong with how they choose to spend their time and live their lives, but it does make you scratch your head just a bit, doesn't it?


----------



## larold (Jul 20, 2017)

Even though veterans know the music well I've never seen anyone play without a score as conductors or soloists sometimes do -- or attempt to do. I haven't played in years but I still sing and even when the music is very familiar, such as the choruses from Handel's Messiah, I still have to rely on a score.


----------



## GucciManeIsTheNewWebern (Jul 29, 2020)

larold said:


> Even though veterans know the music well I've never seen anyone play without a score as conductors or soloists sometimes do -- or attempt to do. I haven't played in years but I still sing and even when the music is very familiar, such as the choruses from Handel's Messiah, I still have to rely on a score.


That is something that always amazes me. It's a remarkable skill in itself. Opera singers have to have 2+ hours of music totally memorized, as do concerto soloists (though not for that same time span). Just having a whole part of such a long piece of music including the exact timing of every entrance, note rest, is incredible.


----------



## Axter (Jan 15, 2020)

I think its fair to say after so many New Year’s Concerts, the VPO can play the Danube Waltz by heart now. :lol:


----------



## Fabulin (Jun 10, 2019)

Axter said:


> I think its fair to say after so many New Year's Concerts, the VPO can play the Danube Waltz by heart now. :lol:


That is, if their hearts are in it anymore...


----------



## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

Fabulin said:


> That is, if their hearts are in it anymore...


Ha!! That's the mark of a professional- someone who can sound totally convincing and expressive, even if their heart IS NOT in it!! Maybe they've got a cold, or indigestion, very tired, just got a nasty note from the IRS. they don't like the music....any sort of distraction ....if you're a pro, you do your best, always, prepare well, Know what you are doing, do your best to play expressively and accurately...

I have to say, it can be "disconcerting" [sorry;-)] when dealing with conservatory students or beginning pros that don't know the music....head buried in the music, no idea what's going on around them, little awareness of where their part fits in....simply put - are you in the foreground (solo, soli), middle ground (counter melody, inside accompanying line), or background (harmonic notes, no melodic input)?? A nice solo comes along, and they have no clue that it is exposed, answers another instrument, introduces a new idea....it drives conductors nuts, as mbhaub has already stated....


----------



## Fabulin (Jun 10, 2019)

Heck148 said:


> Ha!! That's the mark of a professional- someone who can sound totally convincing and expressive, even if their heart IS NOT in it!! Maybe they've got a cold, or indigestion, very tired, just got a nasty note from the IRS. they don't like the music....any sort of distraction ....if you're a pro, you do your best, always, prepare well, Know what you are doing, do your best to play expressively and accurately...


Yeah, I was joking. There is that old adage that a professional is someone who does their best work even when they least feel like working.


----------



## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

Fabulin said:


> Yeah, I was joking. There is that old adage that a professional is someone who does their best work even when they least feel like working.


Exactly....the term "automatic pilot" will sometimes apply...


----------



## Axter (Jan 15, 2020)

Fabulin said:


> That is, if their hearts are in it anymore...


Yes, agree. A good conductor has to give them the necessary push from time to time.


----------



## Open Book (Aug 14, 2018)

mbhaub said:


> Then there are young players who simply do not know the classical repertoire. They've spent too much time listening to pop music and have no idea how to play the classics. I still get irritated as hell when at the start of a rehearsal, the newly hired principal bassoonist turned to me and said, "is this any good? I've never heard of it." We were about to play the Beethoven 7th. She had no clue how the extensive and important bassoon solos were. She never bothered to listen to a recording, much less look at a score. So no, there are too many players today who simply don't know the repertoire. Oh, they can play all the complex etudes and multiphonics - but their musical knowledge is nil. One bassoonist I know of tells students bluntly, that if you have any hopes of playing in a major orchestra, put away the pop/rock/hip hop and immerse yourself in the standard repertoire. As a player you must know how your part fits in.


You have written about this bassoonist before and I was astonished when I read it the first time. I thought people chose something like bassoon _because _it's an instrument associated with classical music, which they already had a love for. Of course they probably start lessons when they are young at the bidding of parents, but if they stick with it I thought surely it's because they want to play great music like the bassoon parts in Beethoven's 7th symphony.

What has this musician been playing all her life on her bassoon, just exercises? Aren't even those pieces written in the musical language of classical, many written in the past, so that they should whet the students' appetite for more of the same, only better? I would have thought the chance to finally play a Beethoven symphony in an orchestra among another proficient musicians would be what leads the bassoonist on, what motivates her.

Instead, what a shock -- "Is this [the Beethoven] any good?"

And a principal needs to show leadership in their section as well, don't they? I would have thought that means having some depth.


----------



## Open Book (Aug 14, 2018)

GucciManeIsTheNewWebern said:


> That is something that always amazes me. It's a remarkable skill in itself. Opera singers have to have 2+ hours of music totally memorized, as do concerto soloists (though not for that same time span). Just having a whole part of such a long piece of music including the exact timing of every entrance, note rest, is incredible.


Do opera singers have prompters, as stage actors do? No, this wouldn't work. They have to be in synch with many other musicians.


----------



## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

Open Book said:


> ....
> And a principal needs to show leadership in their section as well, don't they? I would have thought that means having some depth.


Yes, absolutely...section leadership is a major duty of the principal.


----------



## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

That's the problem with auditions - they can play all the technically difficult stuff but it doesn't measure their leadership. Some big orchestras have a trial period to see if they have it, but smaller orchestras don't have that luxury.


----------



## mikeh375 (Sep 7, 2017)

speaking of players who's heart wasn't in it....
I wrote the score for Father Christmas, an animation film on the books by Raymond Briggs. Come the session, we recorded a Xmas song that was very jolly and jingley belly. The lead trumpet plays the theme at one point and although I didn't know at the time, the lead trumpeters wife had recently died. I have nothing but praise for him as he performed admirably for the whole score. One can only imagine the mixed emotions that must have jarred against the jollity at times.


----------



## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

As they say: the show must go on. Professionals must have tough hides and be able to put aside personal problems and feelings to succeed. Not everyone can do it, and hats off to those who have that mettle.


----------



## Open Book (Aug 14, 2018)

mbhaub said:


> That's the problem with auditions - they can play all the technically difficult stuff but it doesn't measure their leadership. Some big orchestras have a trial period to see if they have it, but smaller orchestras don't have that luxury.


The passages they play in auditions, they are from the orchestral pieces that the orchestra will play and not just etudes, right? Besides technical facility, the orchestra must be looking for feeling and style. Are the musicians informed what pieces they will be asked to play prior to their audition so they can prepare?

If you have scant familiarity with classical music at all, playing with feeling and the correct style seems impossible. That bassoonist must have fantastic technique for them to have hired her.

I would have a hard time respecting a principal who was ignorant of the basic repertory. Still, people can learn. There are stories of opera singers who had no experience with opera until someone told them they had a great voice and could have a successful operatic career.


----------



## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

Open Book said:


> The passages they play in auditions, they are from the orchestral pieces that the orchestra will play and not just etudes, right? Besides technical facility, the orchestra must be looking for feeling and style. Are the musicians informed what pieces they will be asked to play prior to their audition so they can prepare?
> 
> If you have scant familiarity with classical music at all, playing with feeling and the correct style seems impossible. That bassoonist must have fantastic technique for them to have hired her.
> 
> I would have a hard time respecting a principal who was ignorant of the basic repertory. Still, people can learn. There are stories of opera singers who had no experience with opera until someone told them they had a great voice and could have a successful operatic career.


Several questions here....yes, audition candidates know in advance exactly what they may be asked to play (that is a whole topic in itself)...audition material will be a standard concerto, and then orchestral excerpts, no etudes.
Audition procedures have changed greatly over the years...presently, in large orchestras, applicants are screened, then play for an audition committee...those who advance thru semi-finals will then play for the music director....the "rules"of the game at present = for screening, Preliminary round, play everything extremely accurately. Precise rhythm, intonation, technique...."color everything inside the lines". Don't take chances..don't offend anyone....on later rounds, for conductor, expression, style are to be applied....
Smaller orchestras do not use this extended process as a rule, they still do it the "old way"....one audition for conductor, plus orchestra principals, etc...Past audition process was very different [pluses and minuses for both]....
There are many ways of becoming familiar with the orchestral repertoire...certainly the abundance of recordings is huge resource....


----------



## Knorf (Jan 16, 2020)

I'll share an anecdote pertinent to this topic. When I was in graduate school, for my Master of Music degree in composition, it happened that I won principal in the top orchestra. That semester on the program was Verdi's Requiem, which, if you know that monument of sacred choral-orchestral music, has a huge bassoon solo in the middle of the _Dies irae_ movement, introducing and then joining the vocal soloists essentially as an equal.

At the time, I lived with three other graduate students in music, one of whom played as a section cellist also in the top orchestra. After an early rehearsal, I was looking for feedback about how my solo was going, so I asked him what he thought. He said, "You have a solo? Sorry, I didn't notice. I'm just focusing on my own part." 

One of the things that disappointed me hugely is that many professional classical musicians don't actually love listening to classical music. I've known people who've won auditions and have top careers who never listen to recordings other than their own, or go to concerts unless there's someone they want to schmooze up to. This includes some university school of music instructors and professors. Honestly, it breaks my heart.

But then there are professional orchestral musicians who will know the full orchestra score better than the conductor. I've been one of those more than once (however, in rehearsal you keep it to yourself.) One of the real dirty secrets of classical music is that rarely is the conductor the best musician on the stage of an orchestra concert. The best conductors though know this quite well.

You certainly won't succeed in a career as an orchestral musician without knowing your own part really, really well, and at least nominally how it fits in with everything else. But beyond that, you can't generalize. Some professional musicians collect recordings and attend concerts obsessively like we all do who post here, but many do not and don't see the point.

ETA: the Verdi performances went great, and I received a solo bow each performamce (I think there were two) and much praise and applause. Good memories!


----------



## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

It's true that often the best musician on stage is not the conductor....and the best conductors relish the fact, and are most happy to capitalize on their good fortune of having such skilled performers to work with....lame conductors seem to resent it, and are almost defensive about it...
I had this experience personally, and it was most illuminating.....I played Hanson Sym #2 "Romantic" at Eastman with Hanson conducting...it was a very special experience...
One orchestra I was with scheduled Hanson #2....I told the conductor of my experience, he loved it, asked all sorts of questions about it, how he conducted this, that, what kind of sound he wanted here, there, tempo, dynamics, etc, etc...when interviewed for the paper he proudly explained that one of his orchestra members had performed with the composer conducting, and what a positive input it was..I thought we gave a very good presentation of the work.

Not long after, a different orchestra I played with programmed Hanson 2, different conductor....this guy had no interest in my experience performing the work, never asked a single question, and actually seemed to resent the fact that an orchestra musician might have experience and ability that exceeded his own...he was actually almost defensive... I stopped asking questions or making suggestions....the performance was hopelessly wimpy, pedestrian, and lacking in any "cajones" whatsoever....


----------



## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

The big solo in Verdi Requiem "Quid sum miser..." presented 2 very different and difficult situations for me...the first few times I played the work, it all came off great, no problems. I was happy, soloists were happy, conductor pleased. 
Then came the weird 2ble header!!
Same conductor of Hanson notoriety decided to lead a performance of Verdi with a small (as in dinky) community chorus....in rehearsal, we come to the bassoon solo...this guy is going glacially slow, way, way,WAY too slow...it will never work....he insists....rehearsal with soloists, glacially slow, the soloists stop, protest, a huge argument explodes on stage between soloists and conductor!! "We can't sing it that slow, wth are you doing??" He insists, it is a totally unresolved mess....the soloists all come up to me "it has to go faster, you know the tempo. Please, help us out" (oh brother - rock/hard place)
Concert time, I play at a slightly slower than normal tempo...I ignore the conductor, lay it down well, the soloists come in, sing comfortably. It goes very well...intermission, the soloists come up to me, they are ecstatic!! "Oh, Thank you, wonderful, best we've ever done it"...I walk down the hall, conductor verbally assails me, yelling, bellowing, furious!! I've never seen anything like it....I still owe the sob a smash in the mouth for that one!! Needless to say, I soon ceased my affiliation with that group..that Verdi takes the prize as sh*ttiest performance in which I've ever participated.

Weirdness #2 - not long after, I'm playing Verdi Requiem with another group.....this conductor is just as crazy - except he wants to go at supersonic speed thru the quid sum miser solo...I mean, it's almost a scherzo - 6/8 in fast 2!! It's supposed to be in 6. 8th note = 100...again, at rehearsal, he starts off at breakneck speed, soloist comes in at slower, correct tempo, she doesn't follow him....big argument on stage...soloists are adamant... too fast....at concert, he takes off at warp 11, I play it slower, soloists are with me, but conductor is constantly trying to push the tempo ahead....I hold steady, we get thru it, but it was really awful..very ragged, hurried....nerve-wracking to play. A real struggle...
Sometimes, the conductors should just get out of the way, and let the performers take care of business....


----------



## Vasks (Dec 9, 2013)

I've told this story a few times, but probably never here. 

I was attending a lecture by Dale Clevenger, 1st horn of Chicago Symphony. Along the way he admitted that if the guest conductor was not that good, that the players would do what he/she asked of them in rehearsal, but if they felt that certain things by the conductor were wrong-headed, they would play them "their way" in concert.


----------



## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

Vasks said:


> I've told this story a few times, but probably never here.
> 
> I was attending a lecture by Dale Clevenger, 1st horn of Chicago Symphony. Along the way he admitted that if the guest conductor was not that good, that the players would do what he/she asked of them in rehearsal, but if they felt that certain things by the conductor were wrong-headed, they would play them "their way" in concert.


That goes on all the time....the musicians know what to do, they know the music...


----------



## Fabulin (Jun 10, 2019)

Recently a member of the Wiener Philharmoniker said on the British radio that if they don't like a guest conductor, they will play exactly as the conductor directs; if they do like the conductor, they will play with their signature Vienna sound.


----------



## Open Book (Aug 14, 2018)

Knorf said:


> One of the things that disappointed me hugely is that many professional classical musicians don't actually love listening to classical music. I've known people who've won auditions and have top careers who never listen to recordings other than their own, or go to concerts unless there's someone they want to schmooze up to. This includes some university school of music instructors and professors. Honestly, it breaks my heart.


That is a bit disappointing. But it's a job. Some people enjoy doing work-related things even in their spare time. Other people want to completely get away from work in their spare time.

Whether they are professionals or not, I think there are a lot of musicians or musically literate people who attend classical concerts. Without them the audience would be much smaller.


----------



## Open Book (Aug 14, 2018)

Another question from a non-musician. Each musician of the orchestra or ensemble has only his own music in front of him, correct? Does the conductor have every section's music in front of him? If so, he must be turning pages quite often.


----------



## Posauner (Nov 8, 2020)

Open Book said:


> Another question from a non-musician. Each musician of the orchestra or ensemble has only his own music in front of him, correct? Does the conductor have every section's music in front of him? If so, he must be turning pages quite often.


Yes on both counts. Each musician has a part specific to their own instrument. Sometimes there will be cues for other instrument parts to help with keeping track of where you are in the piece. The conductor has a full score with every instrument's part.


----------



## Knorf (Jan 16, 2020)

Posauner said:


> Yes on both counts. Each musician has a part specific to their own instrument. Sometimes there will be cues for other instrument parts to help with keeping track of where you are in the piece. The conductor has a full score with every instrument's part.


This is correct. Although, it's pretty common for musicians to bring study scores along to rehearsals, to follow along when other sections are being rehearsed or to check details too minor to bring to the attention of the conductor.



Open Book said:


> Whether they are professionals or not, I think there are a lot of musicians or musically literate people who attend classical concerts. Without them the audience would be much smaller.


Absolutely true. But I think if professional musicians stopped attending concerts, it would make a much smaller dent than you might expect.


----------



## Posauner (Nov 8, 2020)

Knorf said:


> This is correct. Although, it's pretty common for musicians to bring study scores along to rehearsals, to follow along when other sections are being rehearsed or to check details to minor to bring to the attention of the conductor.


Yes, and I am one of those. It did lead to being asked to conduct a rehearsal when the conductor had a last minute emergency. It was quite nerve wracking, but a fun experience, and made me glad I had studied the score as well as I had!


----------

