# The Klemperer/Barenboim Beethoven Piano Concertos



## Boldertism (May 21, 2015)

What do you think of the Klemperer/Barenboim Beethoven Piano Concertos set and how would you rate it compared to other sets such as Szell/Fleisher or Haitink/Perahia?


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## Epilogue (Sep 20, 2015)

Well, Barenboim's about as boring a pianist as Szell and Haitink are conductors, but pianists are more important, so I guess that makes his version worse.


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

The Barenboim/Klemperer is the one complete concerto set that I own and I wouldn't be without it. The combination of a very young Barenboim with the 'grand old man' makes for a fascinating combination and brings out the best in both. I can't speak to how it compares to the other two that you mention but I do feel that it is far more interesting than the Szell/Gilels and I don't think that you would go wrong with it especially if you like the Klemperer's Beethoven symphonies from the 1950s or his Fidelio or Missa Solemnis.


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## Boldertism (May 21, 2015)

Epilogue said:


> Well, Barenboim's about as boring a pianist as Szell and Haitink are conductors, but pianists are more important, so I guess that makes his version worse.


Do you have a favorite set of these Concertos?


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## Epilogue (Sep 20, 2015)

Not really. Hearing them on a modern piano bugs me, but none of the performances I've heard on a fortepiano are all that great. (Though as I mentioned in another thread yesterday, I find the Schoonderwoerd/Cristofori recordings interesting.)

If I had to live with one for the rest of my life, Horowitz for 5 (Reiner conducting the RCA band) and Kempff with van Kempen conducting the Berlin Phil for 4, which are the ones that really matter.


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## Steatopygous (Jul 5, 2015)

Epilogue said:


> Well, Barenboim's about as boring a pianist as Szell and Haitink are conductors, but pianists are more important, so I guess that makes his version worse.


My goodness! Heresy! I've just come in from the backyard erecting the stake. 
Barenboim/Klemperer are not my favourite set, but they are in many ways very fine and reflect a particular view of the concertos that deserves a hearing. 
As for Szell being boring, he's certainly in my all-time top 10. I wonder what you are hearing, or perhaps not hearing, that others judge so differently?


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## Blancrocher (Jul 6, 2013)

Steatopygous said:


> As for Szell being boring, he's certainly in my all-time top 10. I wonder what you are hearing, or perhaps not hearing, that others judge so differently?


If I were to generalize about Szell's style, I'd say he was generally precise, classical, and detail-oriented, giving him the impression of being less passionate than other great Beethoven conductors. It's just those qualities that make his set of symphonies my favorite, though it's easy for me to imagine others having different preferences.

His piano concertos with Fleisher are great (and I prefer them over the others mentioned in this thread), the one drawback being inferior recorded sound in most cases. One exception is this remastering of the 3rd and 4th, one of my (many :lol desert island disks:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...rd_t=36701&pf_rd_p=2253014322&pf_rd_i=desktop


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## realdealblues (Mar 3, 2010)

You could do worse, but you could do far better. Barenboim lacks imagination and excitement and as much as I love Klemperer he's a little too sombre and sober in the Piano Concertos. Words like "Ponderous" and "Over-exaggerated" come to mind when I think of the Barenboim/Klemperer collaboration.

Fleisher/Szell is my first choice for a set. It has been for many years and will more than likely continue to be because it simply is that good. Fleisher has all the character, imagination and excitement you could ever want to hear and Szell provides his tight, razor sharp accompaniment that fills everything out perfectly.

Perahia/Haitink is also very good for a more modern cycle. Perahia has excellent touch and tone but doesn't quite reach the levels of excitement and energy as Fleisher in the Emperor Concerto. All in all a very good set though.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

Epilogue said:


> Not really. Hearing them on a modern piano bugs me, but none of the performances I've heard on a fortepiano are all that great.


Have you considered Norrington with Melvyn Tan? I just ordered it after checking out about a half dozen sets. I like the way it sounds, but I am far from a qualified listener. If you can get past the ugly cover art, it may be worthwhile, or there may be other editions with better cover art (but without the gem, Choral Fantasy).


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## Epilogue (Sep 20, 2015)

I've been avoiding it because Norrington never does anything for me, but I suppose I should listen. I forgot: I find Robert Levin's recordings to be quite good (and one would expect). Gardiner isn't exactly my first choice for a Beethoven conductor - isn't exactly my first choice for an anything conductor, though he's certainly the master of his kind of Bach, as far as that kind goes - but hey, compared to Norrington, he's the second coming of Felix Weingartner.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Is there any pianist/conductor more over-rated than Daniel Barenboim?
I have yet to hear one performance with his name attached as either a pianist or conductor that moves me.


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## Brahmsian Colors (Sep 16, 2016)

Score another point for the Fleisher/Szell Beethoven Concertos. From the time they started appearing in the late 1950s/early 1960s, I've never heard a better played, more satisfying set of performances.

I only wanted to add there is another pianist whose Beethoven Concerto accounts I also rate very highly, and that is Serkin. I am speaking particularly about his original Columbia recordings (now on Sony) of Nos. 1,2 and 4 with Ormandy/Philadelphia Orchestra and Nos. 3 and 5 with Bernstein/New York Philharmonic, not his later complete set recorded with Ozawa and the Boston Symphony for Telarc. The two pianists display different styles, but each is superb in his own right.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Nothing wrong with Perahia / Haitink .


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## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

I'd have to say, after Fleischer and Perahia, I haven't felt compelled to look much farther, so I can't comment on Barenboim. I'm just chiming in to add another vote for Melvyn Tan with Norrington. I agree with the assessment of Norrington; his Beethoven cycle is pretty much to be avoided. But the concerto set works, if you're looking for an adventure into a new sound.


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## jegreenwood (Dec 25, 2015)

realdealblues said:


> You could do worse, but you could do far better. Barenboim lacks imagination and excitement and as much as I love Klemperer he's a little too sombre and sober in the Piano Concertos. Words like "Ponderous" and "Over-exaggerated" come to mind when I think of the Barenboim/Klemperer collaboration.
> 
> Fleisher/Szell is my first choice for a set. It has been for many years and will more than likely continue to be because it simply is that good. Fleisher has all the character, imagination and excitement you could ever want to hear and Szell provides his tight, razor sharp accompaniment that fills everything out perfectly.
> 
> Perahia/Haitink is also very good for a more modern cycle. Perahia has excellent touch and tone but doesn't quite reach the levels of excitement and energy as Fleisher in the Emperor Concerto. All in all a very good set though.


Count me as another vote for Fleisher/Szell. Possibly another instance of imprint versions, but these have really stuck with me over the years. I (relatively) recently got the Perahia/Haitink cycle as part of the big Perahia box. I've given some of the concertos a listen, but haven't really reached a conclusion. As for Barenboim/Klemperer, I agree "ponderous" comes to mind (and this from a fan of Klemperer's Beethoven Symphony cycle).


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## Animal the Drummer (Nov 14, 2015)

Manxfeeder said:


> I'd have to say, after Fleischer and Perahia, I haven't felt compelled to look much farther, so I can't comment on Barenboim. I'm just chiming in to add another vote for Melvyn Tan with Norrington. I agree with the assessment of Norrington; his Beethoven cycle is pretty much to be avoided. But the concerto set works, if you're looking for an adventure into a new sound.


Interesting. I've had a similar experience with Rattle, of whose musicmaking I am decidedly not a fan as a rule, but whose set of the Beethoven concertos with Alfred Brendel and the Vienna Philharmonic is an exception to that rule.

My first choice would be Szell and Fleisher though.


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

...post deleted...


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## DaveM (Jun 29, 2015)

IMO, Barenboim is one of the great Beethoven piano music interpreters. In addition to his Klemperer version, I also like Fleisher/Szell which has especially good acoustics.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Of course! Leon Fleisher was a terrific Beethoven pianist (as well as Brahms). 

Daniel Barenboim doesn't deserve to be in the same room as Fleisher, IMO.


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## DaveM (Jun 29, 2015)

hpowders said:


> Of course! Leon Fleisher was a terrific Beethoven pianist (as well as Brahms).
> 
> Daniel Barenboim doesn't deserve to be in the same room as Fleisher, IMO.


Apparently, Fleisher seems to disagree since he played the Brahms 1st with Barenboim conducting the Berlin Staatsoper Orchestra.


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## arnerich (Aug 19, 2016)

I like Barenboim's conducting. He's a fine pianist for sure but I've never been fond of his playing.

I like Evgeny Kissin's Beethoven concertos btw, the 2nd movement of the 4th is a highlight.


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## Bettina (Sep 29, 2016)

I dislike Barenboim's approach to Beethoven, in the piano sonatas as well as the concertos. He tends to flatten out Beethoven's contrapuntal textures into a single melody with accompaniment. For example, in his performance of Op. 78, he overemphasizes the top notes of the opening chords, and fails to bring out the chromatic intricacies of the inner voices:


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

DaveM said:


> Apparently, Fleisher seems to disagree since he played the Brahms 1st with Barenboim conducting the Berlin Staatsoper Orchestra.


Probably late in he is career after his injury, when he was no longer marketable after being retired for so long.

Desperate pianists do desperate things!


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## Oortone (Mar 27, 2013)

Bettina said:


> I dislike Barenboim's approach to Beethoven, in the piano sonatas as well as the concertos. *He tends to flatten out Beethoven's contrapuntal textures into a single melody with accompaniment.* For example, in his performance of Op. 78, he overemphasizes the top notes of the opening chords, and fails to bring out the chromatic intricacies of the inner voices:


Precisely, I feel the same. And he does the same with Bach, it's quite terrible. I avoid him.


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## larold (Jul 20, 2017)

It ranks among the better (now considered) historic versions from the big band era. It was notable for Barenboim's youth juxtaposed against Klemperer's maturity. People don't play it this way anymore.


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## JTS (Sep 26, 2021)

I always found this set a very interesting juxterposition between youth and age. Better than having somebody just rattle them off


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## SONNET CLV (May 31, 2014)

The Klemperer/Barenboim Beethoven Piano Concertos is the set I most often turn to when accessing the master's piano concerti. I have a couple of copies of this set, one which I've carried around in the ol' Jeep as a play-in-the-vehicle favorite. It has never disappointed me.

But seldom, too, has Barenboim. Least not in his music making.



Epilogue said:


> Well, Barenboim's about as boring a pianist as Szell and Haitink are conductors, but pianists are more important, so I guess that makes his version worse.


Just yesterday I re-visited Book 1 of Barenboim's Warner Classics box set of the J.S. Bach _The Well-Tempered Clavier_. I was immediately struck on the opening Prelude in C by the _magic_ in Barenboim's rendition. I listened to the entire Part 1, and plan to soon revisit Part 2. This is a collection to cherish. Nothing boring there at all. Rather, revelatory!









I'll leave Szell and Haitink to speak for themselves, which they do quite eloquently in their many splendid recordings.


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

Those recordings are fascinating. I have never managed to enjoy them but I can hear the brilliant chemistry - sparks fly! - between the young pianist and ancient conductor. It always makes me feel "I ought to be able to break through to enjoying these" but, try as I might, it never happens for me. The young Barenboim made another concerto recording (the Brahms concertos) with another old conductor (Barbirolli) and there you get the young-old chemistry and performances that are real successes.

Meanwhile, reading so many criticisms (and inappropriate comparisons) of Barenboim in this thread has me baffled. He is not a performer I follow closely but his career is filled with glories. As a young man he made many really good chamber music recordings with his young clique and as he has aged he has done so many interesting and compelling things, often not my favourite performances but strikingly good for all that. And some of what he has done has been truly exceptional. As a conductor his Elgar is stunning, for example.


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## premont (May 7, 2015)

JTS said:


> I always found this set a very interesting juxterposition between youth and age. Better than having somebody just rattle them off


Yes indeed.

But the Testament release of concertos 3, 4 (and probably 5 which I haven't heard) with the Philharmonia / Klemperer and Claudio Arrau as soloist is IMO much more successful than the recordings with Barenboim. The rapport between Arrau and Klemperer seems so much better.


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## Rogerx (Apr 27, 2018)

I still have them on Vinyl ( unplayable because they are worn out)


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## JTS (Sep 26, 2021)

Rogerx said:


> I still have them on Vinyl ( unplayable because they are worn out)


Saw them CD disgustingly cheap at a secondhand shop the other day


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## Rogerx (Apr 27, 2018)

JTS said:


> Saw them CD disgustingly cheap at a secondhand shop the other day


I have them on CD, just a trip down memory lane made me do this.


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