# What do you think of Barenboim's Bruckner Symphony cycle?



## Guest

I recently downloaded the whole set of Barenboim and i have heard his rendition of the fifth symphony and i must say it was quite magnificent!

What is your opinion? Is it great or bad?

Also could someone be kind enough to tell me the most expansive version of all of Bruckner's symphonies?

/karajan


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## joen_cph

I suppose it´s the Teldec recordings, not the old DG set, which I haven´t heard. I have found several of the Teldec symphony recordings to be great - 5, 4 & 7 in particular. The degree of polish in the performances vary unusually much in that set IMO, I would think the amount of rehearsel time too.


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## Guest

It is WarnerClassics and the orchestra playing is Berlin Philharmoniker


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## joen_cph

Yes, that is the Teldec.


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## Bone

Teldec set is very good - not many better 5's or 9's out there. I do have a problem with 4: the horn playing in the first movement at the conclusion is some of the most crass noise I've ever heard on a recording. I think the soloist warbled on a note and then just decided to trash the performance.


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## Guest

But otherwise are the other 7 symphonies top-notch?


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## Guest

Bone said:


> Teldec set is very good - not many better 5's or 9's out there. I do have a problem with 4: the horn playing in the first movement at the conclusion is some of the most crass noise I've ever heard on a recording. *I think the soloist warbled on a note and then just decided to trash the performance*.


I know what you mean! It's all gone perfectly, then you fluff some passage that was under your fingers no problem ... aagh, you feel like throwing your instrument on the floor and stomping on it. OK to do so in rehearsal, not live before a paying public. Just about OK in a recording session, but don't expect to get any further stand-in jobs.


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## joen_cph

I wouldn´t say top-notch IMO, but opinions vary immensely in these matters ... There aren´t any complete Bruckner sets where you´ll find the consistently best recording of the symphonies. I like Barenboim´s brisk, engaged and fluent tempi though, but at times there needs to be more coordination. In the 9th I prefer more ebb-and-flow effects than his reading there (which is more clear and steady than it is the rule with him) as heard for instance in Jochum/DG or, to a less extent, Jochum/EMI. For an alternative, very broad reading, Karajan/EMI is an interesting 4th.

My own preferences are

00 - Inbal,Frankfurt
0 - Inbal,Frankfurt
1 - Abbado,VPO; Inbal,Frankfurt; Tintner
2 - Inbal, Frankfurt; Skrowaczewski; Simone Young (because of the rare original version): I don´t get Giulini/EMI.
3 - Inbal/Frankfurt;Celibidache/DG (very different from his EMI), Skrowaczewski. Kubelik,BayrRSO is the rare 2nd version of the work, but otherwise not very interesting. 
4 - Barenboim,BPO; Karajan/EMI; Celibidache/DG (very different from his EMI version); Abendroth; Suitner; Konwitschny; Inbal,Frankfurt, mainly interesting because it´s a quite different version of the symphony. I don´t get Böhm.
5 - Barenboim/BPO; Welser-Möst/EMI; Abendroth
6 - Blomstedt/Decca; Celibidache/EMI; Skrowaczewski
7 - Karajan/EMI; Barenboim,BPO; Inbal,Frankfurt; D´Avalos/ASV; Blomstedt,Gewandhaus
8 - Haitink, CtGeb 1981; Furtwängler 1944; Wand; Inbal,Frankfurt is interesting mostly because it´s the original version of the symphony.
9 - Jochum/DG; Furtwängler 1944

I haven´t heard enough of Wand´s recordings to fully know about them, but it´s an impressive set, not at least his various 8th´s.


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## Xaltotun

Oh, I love Barenboim's Teldec set to death! Some additional bonuses it has are a recording of the hard to find choral piece "Helgoland", and the fact that all the symphonies are on their respective discs, no swapping.


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## Bone

joen_cph said:


> I wouldn´t say top-notch IMO, but opinions vary immensely in these matters ... There aren´t any complete Bruckner sets where you´ll find the consistently best recording of the symphonies. I like Barenboim´s brisk, engaged and fluent tempi though, but at times there needs to be more coordination. In the 9th I prefer more ebb-and-flow effects than his reading there (which is more clear and steady than it is the rule with him) as heard for instance in Jochum/DG or, to a less extent, Jochum/EMI. For an alternative, very broad reading, Karajan/EMI is an interesting 4th.
> 
> My own preferences are
> 
> 00 - Inbal,Frankfurt
> 0 - Inbal,Frankfurt
> 1 - Abbado,VPO; Inbal,Frankfurt; Tintner
> 2 - Inbal, Frankfurt; Skrowaczewski; Simone Young (because of the rare original version): I don´t get Giulini/EMI.
> 3 - Inbal/Frankfurt;Celibidache/DG (very different from his EMI), Skrowaczewski. Kubelik,BayrRSO is the rare 2nd version of the work, but otherwise not very interesting.
> 4 - Barenboim,BPO; Karajan/EMI; Celibidache/DG (very different from his EMI version); Abendroth; Suitner; Konwitschny; Inbal,Frankfurt, mainly interesting because it´s a quite different version of the symphony. I don´t get Böhm.
> 5 - Barenboim/BPO; Welser-Möst/EMI; Abendroth
> 6 - Blomstedt/Decca; Celibidache/EMI; Skrowaczewski
> 7 - Karajan/EMI; Barenboim,BPO; Inbal,Frankfurt; D´Avalos/ASV; Blomstedt,Gewandhaus
> 8 - Haitink, CtGeb 1981; Furtwängler 1944; Wand; Inbal,Frankfurt is interesting mostly because it´s the original version of the symphony.
> 9 - Jochum/DG; Furtwängler 1944
> 
> I haven´t heard enough of Wand´s recordings to fully know about them, but it´s an impressive set, not at least his various 8th´s.


Love the Inbal recordings! Appreciate your depth of knowledge in Bruckner and I look forward to hearing your recommendations soon.

I do hope you'll give HvK 8 / VPO another listen. I look forward to hearing Haitink's 8 (another vastly underrated Brucknerian). Have you heard the Abbado or Blomstedt 4's?


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## joen_cph

> I do hope you'll give HvK 8 / VPO another listen. I look forward to hearing Haitink's 8 (another vastly underrated Brucknerian). Have you heard the *Abbado or Blomstedt 4's*?


I don´t recall hearing them, but I´ve somewhat settled with my collection & listening to Anton has been a bit on a stand-still recently, though I appreciate him a lot as one of the definitely most important and enjoyable composers. The HvK 8th didn´t make it to my "parnassus", but has a lot of recommendations by others of course. Haitink did several 8ths, the 81 is superb. The Inbal 3rd should be heard by everyone interested in the composer


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## Copperears

joen_cph said:


> I don´t recall hearing them, but I´ve somewhat settled with my collection & listening to Anton has been a bit on a stand-still recently, though I appreciate him a lot as one of the definitely most important and enjoyable composers. The HvK 8th didn´t make it to my "parnassus", but has a lot of recommendations by others of course. Haitink did several 8ths, the 81 is superb. The Inbal 3rd should be heard by everyone interested in the composer


I decided to be wayward and pick up the Barenboim/Chicago Symphony set; have always liked Barenboim's conducting, and the Chicago Symphony's sound. No-one else seems to like it, either, which I find encouraging. 

So far, so good; he brings life and clarity to these works in equal balance, without being overly Teutonic in approach. More musical, less monumental.


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## dieter

karajan said:


> I recently downloaded the whole set of Barenboim and i have heard his rendition of the fifth symphony and i must say it was quite magnificent!
> 
> What is your opinion? Is it great or bad?
> 
> Also could someone be kind enough to tell me the most expansive version of all of Bruckner's symphonies?
> 
> /karajan


Ach du lieber. You ought to know Herbert!


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## dieter

Bone said:


> Teldec set is very good - not many better 5's or 9's out there. I do have a problem with 4: the horn playing in the first movement at the conclusion is some of the most crass noise I've ever heard on a recording. I think the soloist warbled on a note and then just decided to trash the performance.


Beastly horn player, absolutely beastly!


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## dieter

joen_cph said:


> I wouldn´t say top-notch IMO, but opinions vary immensely in these matters ... There aren´t any complete Bruckner sets where you´ll find the consistently best recording of the symphonies. I like Barenboim´s brisk, engaged and fluent tempi though, but at times there needs to be more coordination. In the 9th I prefer more ebb-and-flow effects than his reading there (which is more clear and steady than it is the rule with him) as heard for instance in Jochum/DG or, to a less extent, Jochum/EMI. For an alternative, very broad reading, Karajan/EMI is an interesting 4th.
> 
> My own preferences are
> 
> 00 - Inbal,Frankfurt
> 0 - Inbal,Frankfurt
> 1 - Abbado,VPO; Inbal,Frankfurt; Tintner
> 2 - Inbal, Frankfurt; Skrowaczewski; Simone Young (because of the rare original version): I don´t get Giulini/EMI.
> 3 - Inbal/Frankfurt;Celibidache/DG (very different from his EMI), Skrowaczewski. Kubelik,BayrRSO is the rare 2nd version of the work, but otherwise not very interesting.
> 4 - Barenboim,BPO; Karajan/EMI; Celibidache/DG (very different from his EMI version); Abendroth; Suitner; Konwitschny; Inbal,Frankfurt, mainly interesting because it´s a quite different version of the symphony. I don´t get Böhm.
> 5 - Barenboim/BPO; Welser-Möst/EMI; Abendroth
> 6 - Blomstedt/Decca; Celibidache/EMI; Skrowaczewski
> 7 - Karajan/EMI; Barenboim,BPO; Inbal,Frankfurt; D´Avalos/ASV; Blomstedt,Gewandhaus
> 8 - Haitink, CtGeb 1981; Furtwängler 1944; Wand; Inbal,Frankfurt is interesting mostly because it´s the original version of the symphony.
> 9 - Jochum/DG; Furtwängler 1944
> 
> I haven´t heard enough of Wand´s recordings to fully know about them, but it´s an impressive set, not at least his various 8th´s.


I bow to you: this is a wonderful list. I have just about all these recordings - apart from the Abendroths,D'avalos, Blomstedt Leipzig - I have the Dresden -, Young and the EMI Karajans. I really do love the Giulini 2nd and it's a symphony I rate very, very highly, so it's not an off the cuff assessment, and though I find Bohm generally unexciting I DO like that VPO 4th.
If you can , try to hear Sanderlings 4 on Profil. His Gewandhaus 3 is also great, as is is Bavarian 7.
Best regards.


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## dieter

dieter said:


> I bow to you: this is a wonderful list. I have just about all these recordings - apart from the Abendroths,D'avalos, Blomstedt Leipzig - I have the Dresden -, Young and the EMI Karajans. I really do love the Giulini 2nd and it's a symphony I rate very, very highly, so it's not an off the cuff assessment, and though I find Bohm generally unexciting I DO like that VPO 4th.
> If you can , try to hear Sanderlings 4 on Profil. His Gewandhaus 3 is also great, as is is Bavarian 7.
> Best regards.


Also, in the main, I don't get Haitink's Bruckner. I really respect him as a musician and human being but as much as I've tried, his music making doesn't speak to me. As they say in the navy, Sailor Vee.


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## joen_cph

dieter said:


> I bow to you: this is a wonderful list. I have just about all these recordings - apart from the Abendroths,D'avalos, Blomstedt Leipzig - I have the Dresden -, Young and the EMI Karajans. I really do love the Giulini 2nd and it's a symphony I rate very, very highly, so it's not an off the cuff assessment, and though I find Bohm generally unexciting I DO like that VPO 4th.
> If you can , try to hear Sanderlings 4 on Profil. His Gewandhaus 3 is also great, as is is Bavarian 7.
> Best regards.


Abendroth is highly original and extremely lively in Bruckner. That Haitink 8th is massive and overwhelming.

Concerning my reservations about Giulini, it could be that I only have a perhaps not totally satisfying LP. I´ll take it up again.

As for Sanderling, I haven´t heard any of his Bruckner, not much of Rögner´s either except the 9th (Rögner did some fine Mahler, such as his 3rd, but poor Janacek). Should I find it, I´ll check it out, though I´ve already acquired a few more Bruckner recordings than when I wrote the list above.


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## billeames

I like the Jochum set DG the best. I did not like Barenboim Berlin 6th, I have not heard many of his. I love the Beinum 5-8 Philips label. Haitink 8th on RCGO Love Abbado 4, 5. I have not heard the rest. Also good is Jochum EMI/Warner, Karajan DG, and mostly Haitink Philips. Karajan 8th BPO and VPO are great. 

The Barenboim DG set is satisfactory. 

Bill


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## Pugg

billeames said:


> I like the Jochum set DG the best. I did not like Barenboim Berlin 6th, I have not heard many of his. I love the Beinum 5-8 Philips label. Haitink 8th on RCGO Love Abbado 4, 5. I have not heard the rest. Also good is Jochum EMI/Warner, Karajan DG, and mostly Haitink Philips. Karajan 8th BPO and VPO are great.
> 
> The Barenboim DG set is satisfactory.
> 
> Bill


I prefer the Warner set if you don't mind, the 6 Th is out of this world :tiphat:


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## hoodjem

I checked out the Barenboim-Berlin Phil (Warner) set from our local library.
Did not like it at all.

It sounded as if he had deconstructed each symphony into its constituent parts, but forgot to put them back together.
No sense of architectural unity--just lots of little episodes that were strung out one after another, but made no sense as a whole.


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## Skakner

Barenboim's first cycle with Chicago sounds better to my ears (than his Berlin cycle).


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## Heck148

Skakner said:


> Barenboim's first cycle with Chicago sounds better to my ears (than his Berlin cycle).


For sure!! The Barenboim/CSO set on DG is superior, along with Solti/CSO, the best set I've heard....Superbly recorded by DG, great orchestral execution....


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## Knorf

Barenboim's Bruckner inevitably has incredible moments in all of his cycles, but he also inevitably sounds like he loses the plot, with all of his egregious tempo fussiness.


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## Merl

Heck148 said:


> For sure!! The Barenboim/CSO set on DG is superior, along with Solti/CSO, the best set I've heard....Superbly recorded by DG, great orchestral execution....


I'm with you on this Heck. I have these two (below) and the Chicago set is much better. The Warner set isn't 'bad' by any stretches and has some quality moments but it doesn't sound as organic, raw or unfussy as the Chicago set, which contains some great playing (the brass sounds special) and he doesn't pull tempo much. Its always been one of my favourite Bruckner sets even though every symphony is not perfect but when Barenboim does get it right he nails it.


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## Kiki

I have only one Barenboim cycle, the SKB set. Beautifully and sensitively phrased, but it sounds episodic in many places. Not really my cup of tea. Reading what you guys have said, the Berlin set seems similar in concept, but the Chicago set is much less idiosyncratic, would you say? I'm just curious.


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## Knorf

Kiki said:


> I have only one Barenboim cycle, the SKB set. Beautifully and sensitively phrased, but it sounds episodic in many places. Not really my cup of tea. Reading what you guys have said, the Berlin set seems similar in concept, but the Chicago set is much less idiosyncratic, would you say? I'm just curious.


For my money, Barenboim's Bruckner _always_ sounds fussy and episodic, but I think I'd agree less so in the CSO box.


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## Merl

Kiki said:


> I have only one Barenboim cycle, the SKB set. Beautifully and sensitively phrased, but it sounds episodic in many places. Not really my cup of tea. Reading what you guys have said, the Berlin set seems similar in concept, but the Chicago set is much less idiosyncratic, would you say? I'm just curious.


Yep, I'd agree. It's much more of a seat of the pants ride. I like Barenboim's Bruckner but where his BPO set can occasionally be fussier his Chicago set is bolder and feels spontaneous.


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