# Franz Schubert



## ChamberNut

What a talent!  Dies at age of 31, yet he leaves over 1,000 works. 

The last year of his life showed the growth and maturity of a composer who had no where to go but straight up to the highest stratosphere of excellence.

Unfortunately didn't leave more orchestral works, but Schubert left alot of masterpieces in the chamber repertoire, his solo piano pieces and of course, his lieder.


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## Ephemerid

"Nacht und Traume" is a beautiful favourite song of mine. I sang it in recital years ago-- though certainly not with the kind of truly _ s l o w _ tempo it ought to be (as say, Ian Bostridge's recording of it). I didn't have that kind of lung capacity! LOL

The "Erlking" is another great art-song, very dramatic and moving, especially when the singer does all the voices distinctively.


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## Ephemerid

Here's a great performance of the Erlking HERE and a translation of Goethe's text is on that page too. Take a listen!

And a bit of background on the story HERE (here's an excerpt):



> Erlking captures the Romantic "strangeness and wonder" of Goethe's ballad. Erlking is based upon the legend that whoever is touched by the king of the elves must die.
> 
> Schubert used a triplet pattern to set up the eerie atmosphere of the poem. The image of a galloping horse and great urgency is seen through this triplet pattern. The use of the minor key also contributes to the atmosphere.
> 
> . . .
> 
> Although only one singer is used, each of the four characters are portrayed differently. The narrator is in the middle range with less emotion. The father is sung in the low range and becomes a calming line. The son is in the high range with a great deal of dissonance, while the erlking is in the middle range, but using a major mode.
> 
> By changing the melody, harmony, rhythm, and accompaniment, Schubert was able to paint a picture of a child's terror by increasing the high range and clashing dissonance. The father's part has a more rounded vocal line, thus the calming effect. The erlking, or elf is seen as seductive by the use of smooth melodious phrases which at first are coaxing, then become insistent as the terror of the child increases.
> 
> The music follows the action of the narrative with a steady rise in tension and pitch that builds almost to the very end. As they draw closer to home, the constant triplet rhythm slows just as a rider and horse would do upon reaching the safety of home. Yet the last line: "In his arms the child" is drawn out by the use of a pause before the final two words: "was dead."


What I did not know before though was that Schubert was 18 when he wrote this!


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## Ephemerid

And the gorgeous Nacht und Traume HERE.


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## World Violist

When I think of Schubert, I immediately think of his string quintet (C major), especially that gorgeous cello line a little while into the first movement. That is one of my favorite quintets ever written, far better than the "Trout" piano quintet in my opinion - though that's excellent, too.


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## marie

Among his work, "Trout" is my most favorite. It is very fresh and makes me feel really happy whenever I hear it. It's heavenly beautiful. I love the flow and the light touch of the piano in the opening.


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## marval

We used to sing the words to The Trout at school, I have always like it after that.

To me it is very descriptive, I can just imagine the trout leaping about.

I like other Schubert too, but Trout was the first piece I got to know.


Margaret


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## David C Coleman

ChamberNut said:


> What a talent!  Dies at age of 31, yet he leaves over 1,000 works.
> 
> The last year of his life showed the growth and maturity of a composer who had no where to go but straight up to the highest stratosphere of excellence.
> 
> Unfortunately didn't leave more orchestral works, but Schubert left alot of masterpieces in the chamber repertoire, his solo piano pieces and of course, his lieder.


Yes indeed a tragedy that he died so early. had he lived another 20 or 30 years. we would indeed have been blessed with such an array of masterpieces..

I love his chamber music and, one of the greatest symphonies ever written "The Great C Major"..


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## BuddhaBandit

Interesting... I saw this thread while listening to Andsnes' and Bostridge's *Winterreise*. Bostridge really gives a quite a tortured performance.

I've always like Schubert because he was the most melodic of the Classical/Romantic transition figures. While you can enjoy Beethoven for his development of motives, Schubert always gets you humming a tune. This is likely why Schubert's lieder are much better than Ludwig Van's (to quote Alex from _A Clockwork Orange_).

While I love his chamber music and, to a lesser extent, his symphonies, I particularly enjoy his solo piano works. Both the *Impromptus* and the *Wanderer Fantasie* seem to perpetually appear in my CD player.


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## Bach

It strikes me that someone so young would only have such a large output if they were aware that their life will be cut short. I think Schubert and Mozart's premature death was something like the work of fate.


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## LindenLea

I love Schubert, that tubby little figure in round glasses with a shock of black hair, a very unromantic figure I'm sure! And yet where did he find those uniquely fluctuating harmonies that enrich the untiring flow of melody in his music? The image has grown of him as being a jolly little man, a simply child of nature, pouring out songs over the dinner table, scribbling them down on the back of a menu card. But what a genius he was!


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## Isola

Your post made me smile, Lindenlea. I _adore_ his piano works. I think he's one of the most underrated composers. Poor Schcubert. But we love him.


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## Zeniyama

Schubert's always been one of my all-time favourite composers. I often find myself listening to his works obsessively, which I will do with very few composers (Mussorgsky and Satie are the only others who come immediately to mind), and it often gets to the point where I lose track of time. He was definitely one of those geniuses the world only sees once in a very long time.


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## Artemis

Zeniyama said:


> Schubert's always been one of my all-time favourite composers. I often find myself listening to his works obsessively, which I will do with very few composers (Mussorgsky and Satie are the only others who come immediately to mind), and it often gets to the point where I lose track of time. He was definitely one of those geniuses the world only sees once in a very long time.


And yet not mentioned in your list of top 20 composers on another thread?


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## Zeniyama

Artemis said:


> And yet not mentioned in your list of top 20 composers on another thread?


Yeah, I did seem to miss him somehow... I think it was because, at the time, he just kind of slipped my mind for a moment, which doesn't say much about how much I love his music, but things like that do happen to me quite often.

I should go alter my list just a bit.


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## feronni

Sorry to jump off topic into your thread.

Don't know if any of you Schubert experts can help with this melody identification over on the identification forum -:

http://www.talkclassical.com/6549-help-id-melody-please.html

I only ask here because someone has suggested that it could be a Schubert Lied.

Thanks


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## TresPicos

Even though he's so famous, I still think Schubert is underrated, usually dismissed as too light or too sweet or too immature, and unjustly shoved away into the shadow of the "great" Beethoven. In my opinion, the "average" Schubert symphony surpasses the "average" Beethoven symphony, immature or not.


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## Artemis

feronni said:


> Sorry to jump off topic into your thread.
> 
> Don't know if any of you Schubert experts can help with this melody identification over on the identification forum -:
> 
> http://www.talkclassical.com/6549-help-id-melody-please.html
> 
> I only ask here because someone has suggested that it could be a Schubert Lied.
> 
> Thanks


It could be _An Emma_, D 113.


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## Artemis

TresPicos said:


> Even though he's so famous, I still think Schubert is underrated, usually dismissed as too light or too sweet or too immature, and unjustly shoved away into the shadow of the "great" Beethoven. In my opinion, the "average" Schubert symphony surpasses the "average" Beethoven symphony, immature or not.


I agree. I think that Schubert's "average" symphony, chamber piece, piano sonata, piano miniature, theatrical piece, sacred work, song cycle, song are all better than Beethoven's. And to say that he managed all this by the age of 31 is astonishing. There's never been a musical talent like him.


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## Mirror Image

TresPicos said:


> Even though he's so famous, I still think Schubert is underrated, usually dismissed as too light or too sweet or too immature, and unjustly shoved away into the shadow of the "great" Beethoven. In my opinion, the "average" Schubert symphony surpasses the "average" Beethoven symphony, immature or not.


I couldn't disagree more. You said Schubert is underrated? Are you kidding me? He's still being performed and the audience for his music is growing day by day. If anything, there's too much attention placed upon him.

I also disagree that the "average," whatever that means, Beethoven symphony is surpassed by an "average" Schubert symphony. Music isn't a competition, TresPicos. It's about personal preferences and I can almost guarantee you that Beethoven will win the argument no matter how many times you present it.

I'm not a big fan of either composer, because, in my opinion, I don't hear anything in their music that is as distinctive as say a Bruckner or Sibelius symphony, but without Beethoven's innovative way of phrasing, we would be lost. The same could be said about Schubert too. Without him, Mozart, Haydn, we wouldn't have had the great Beethoven.

Anyway, I don't think Schubert is underrated or unappreciated. His music sells out more concerts than Mahler or Nielsen. That's just a fact.


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## StlukesguildOhio

I am personally a great lover of Schubert's music. If he is or rather was underrated I think it has much to do with the fact that he did die so young and much of his best work was written outside of the large symphonic forms. I disagree that the average Schubert symphony surpasses the average Beethoven symphony. I think his 5th is particularly strong... but only the 8th and 9th can compare to Beethoven. Schubert's strongest contributions seem to have been chamber, solo works, and his lieder first and foremost. His masses are only now starting to gain some real recognition... and I would say to a great extent the same is true of his piano sonatas (although the Impromptus have long held a certain level of recognition). When I first began to collect classical music... back in the early 1980's... it was nearly impossible to find any of Schubert's lieder in most record stores... in spite of the great recordings made with Fischer-Dieskau, Ameling, Janet Baker, Kurt Moll, Hans Hotter, etc... I now probably have more CDs of Schubert's lieder than of any other composer's songs... which is probably as it should be. Still... getting to see a live performance of these is something of a challenge... although I was able to see the complete _Winterreise_ performed by Matthias Goerne at our local art museum of all places.


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## Sid James

Well, generally, Schubert is not an underrated composer but some of his less performed works can be described as that. Most classical listeners will have heard or perhaps even collected Symphonies 5, 8, 9, the _Trout Quintet_, _String Quartet 'Death & the Maiden_,' & others. But I was intruigued to hear a live radio broadcast from here in Sydney a few weeks ago in which they played his _Symphony No. 4_. Schubert composed many such works, which are great, but rarely get an outing in the concert halls today...

& I think that it would have been very interesting had he lived longer, say into the 1860's when composers like Brahms & Bruckner were beginning to emerge. I say this because I think he was one of the pioneering figures of the early Romantic period, even though he lived during the late classical era, his music (just like Beethoven's) had a huge impact on what composers did later in the C19th...


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## Artemis

BBC PROMS 2009

One of the high spots (for me at least) of this year's Proms ...

A performance of Schubert's Symphony No 9 in C ("Great") is about to begin on BBC Radio 3 by The Vienna Philharmonic under Franz Welser-Most at the Albert Hall, London. (8.20 pm)

Further details HERE


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## StlukesguildOhio

A performance of Schubert's Symphony No 9 in C ("Great") is about to begin on BBC Radio 3 by The Vienna Philharmonic under Franz Welser-Most at the Albert Hall, London. (8.20 pm)

So our home-town boy made good?


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## jurianbai

I have borrow in many of Schubert's chamber piece, apart from his string quartets and quintets. The piece like the three Piano Trios, Octet in F, Duo (sonata) for violin and piano and the fantasy for violin and piano in C D934, all have the potential to be my most favorite chamber piece of the romantic era. I wonder why less people noticed and referred his chamber music. 

Is there anyone can comment his works compared to the post-Beethoven big names, such as Brahms, Mendelssohn and Schumann, whose by geographical and output pretty much same as Schubert?


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## Conor71

jurianbai said:


> I have borrow in many of Schubert's chamber piece, apart from his string quartets and quintets. The piece like the three Piano Trios, Octet in F, Duo (sonata) for violin and piano and the fantasy for violin and piano in C D934, all have the potential to be my most favorite chamber piece of the romantic era. I wonder why less people noticed and referred his chamber music.


Yes, I love Schubert's chamber music as well and am also interested in his Piano works.
I have a few of his Symphonies and Winterreise which are also fine pieces but they dont enthuse me like the late string quartets or Piano trios do! .


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## elgar's ghost

Had he lived for another 30 years would this have had any bearing on the impact and influence of Mendelssohn and Schumann, does anyone think? I personally think he would have eventually dwarfed all of his contemporaries who in turn would have been driven to create even finer works in response to Schubert effortlessly upping the ante. 

I often wonder whether the icing on the cake would have been that elusive succesful opera which would have deservedly swelled his coffers. In time hopefully a piano concerto or two also would have followed.

Oh, boy - it was truly terrible to for him to die so soon and in those circumstances.


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## Violinnostalgics

It is indeed a pity for Schubert to die at such an early age. I admire his legacy as a 'sustainable' composer of the Romantic period. One of his piece, the 'Fantasiestuke op.73 for Cello or Clarinet' is one of my favourites.


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## Very Senior Member

Violinnostalgics said:


> It is indeed a pity for Schubert to die at such an early age. I admire his legacy as a 'sustainable' composer of the Romantic period. One of his piece, the 'Fantasiestuke op.73 for Cello or Clarinet' is one of my favourites.


I think you will find that Robert Schumann wrote that.


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## Air

Very Senior Member said:


> I think you will find that Robert Schumann wrote that.


A pity that Bobby generally doesn't get the same kind of credit.


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## Sid James

I was looking forward to seeing a live performance of Schubert's _Winterreise_ here in Sydney but it was canceled. However, in it's place there will be another song recital which I'm going to (my first full-on song recital!). They will perform Schubert's_ Shepherd on the Rock_ as well as songs by Mahler (Ruckert songs) and Britten (_A Charm of Lullabies_). Looking forward to that.

I also saw a live performance of the above mentioned _Symphony No. 4 "Tragic"_ by the Sydney-based Metropolitan Chamber Orchestra under Sarah Grace Williams. I think that this is a very fine symphony, in his earlier "classical" style, and the slow movement especially shows how a composer worth their salt can make a major key sound quite tragic and sad. It's great that some of his lesser-known works are getting a bit of an airing in the concert halls - this week I hope to go to a concert where they'll be playing his _Rondo Brilliante _for violin and strings which I haven't heard in recent memory. It's true, he does have his warhorses, but most of his large output is not very well known.

I also just heard a friend's cd of Pollini playing one of the late sonatas (I think it was D. 958). The slow movement had some anguish, the scherzo was light and Viennese, and there were these silences in the final movement that made me really sit up and take notice - very modern for an early C19th composer. We aim to listen to that whole 2 cd set over the coming weeks with the friend. I also want to get some of these works, and I saw a budget priced cd with Bolet playing two of the sonatas, which I might eventually get as I don't own any of these works myself...


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## StlukesguildOhio

Too bad the _Winterreise_ was canceled. Britten just ain't quite up to the level of compensation. I saw it live some few years ago performed by Matthias Goerne. The cycle is Schubert's masterpiece in my opinion and it is one of the works I have the most recordings of.


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## jurianbai

I just found that Schubert had a work called Konzertstück in D, for violin and orchestra, D.345 aka.. the Violin Concerto! Recommended recording?


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## GraemeG

It was 20 years ago, yet Maurizini Pollini's live performance in Salzburg of the G major sonata D894 is still seared on my memory.
Almost everything Schubert wrote after the age of 27 is a masterpiece.
The profound "Late Schubert" - what a concept! Those last 5 sonatas, the C major quintet, the B minor & C major symphonies - all this from a man barely 30.
Staggering. Age-for-age, Schubert beats everyone.
Had Beethoven died at Schubert's age, we'd barely have heard of him.
G


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## Air

Yes, I've always been fascinated by the direction Schubert was taking music during his last few years. I've always wondered, if he had been healthy and bound to live a couple (at least) more years, would his late sonatas, quintet, late song cycles, late symphonies, etc. still've sounded the way they do? Or was this a result of an epiphany that was revealed to him as he approached death?


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## HarpsichordConcerto

Air said:


> Yes, I've always been fascinated by the direction Schubert was taking music during his last few years. I've always wondered, if he had been healthy and bound to live a couple (at least) more years, would his late sonatas, quintet, late song cycles, late symphonies, etc. still've sounded the way they do? *Or was this a result of an epiphany that was revealed to him as he approached death?*


Interesting conjecture. Maybe. Perhaps he realised the syphilis that he contracted from sleeping with prostitute(s) was way too sinful.


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## TresPicos

Air said:


> Yes, I've always been fascinated by the direction Schubert was taking music during his last few years. I've always wondered, if he had been healthy and bound to live a couple (at least) more years, would his late sonatas, quintet, late song cycles, late symphonies, etc. still've sounded the way they do? Or was this a result of an epiphany that was revealed to him as he approached death?


At what point did he become aware that he was approaching death?

I believe that some of his late works would not have been written without that grim end in sight. But had he lived a few more years, maybe he would have found the time to write all those concertos that he denied us all.


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## Very Senior Member

Andre said:


> I also want to get some of these works, and I saw a budget priced cd with Bolet playing two of the sonatas, which I might eventually get as I don't own any of these works myself...


I'm surprised that you haven't already acquired Schubert's late sonatas. In fact, I would suggest you get all of of them from No 11 onwards. Nos 5 & 6 are very good too. I wouldn't recommend buying cheap ones, as you propose. Stick with the likes of Brendel and Richter, although Imogen Cooper has some excellent recordings. My favourite sonatas changes every now and then but currently it's No 15 (Reliquie) and No 17 (Gasteiner). There's an excellent recording of the latter by Dalberto.



jurianbai said:


> I just found that Schubert had a work called Konzertstück in D, for violin and orchestra, D.345 aka.. the Violin Concerto! Recommended recording?


Gidon Kremer/Chamber Orchestra of Europe. You might check out Kremer's recordings of Schubert violin sonatas too.



GraemeG said:


> Almost everything Schubert wrote after the age of 27 is a masterpiece.
> The profound "Late Schubert" - what a concept! Those last 5 sonatas, the C major quintet, the B minor & C major symphonies - all this from a man barely 30.


Schubert was 25 when he wrote the B minor symphony, and he probably began the C major at the same age. Among his many late works you could also have mentioned are Winterreise, Schwangesang, Mass No 6. Of course, he wrote lots of material before the age of 30 which are also masterpieces. Trouble is that most people don't get beyond a few of the best-known works before they feel they have "covered" Schubert.



TresPicos said:


> At what point did he become aware that he was approaching death?
> 
> I believe that some of his late works would not have been written without that grim end in sight


The suggestion that Schubert's late works are valedictory is not an opinion shared by all who have studied his life and works. For a start he probably didn't die of syphilis (which he certainly had) but of typhoid fever. Although exhausted and feeling very ill in the closing few months of his life, even a week before his eventual death he wasn't sure what was happening to him because he asked his brother (with whom he was living) that very question. He had also begun some lessons in counterpoint with Sechter late in 1828 (Schubert died in November that year), which is hardly the sort of thing one might expect him to undertake if his death was expected any time soon.


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## Ivan_cro

I love his solo piano works, I played few of them and I really enjoyed!
and I just HAVE TO listen to more of his works, I enjoyed in every single one I ever heard 
he was truly a genius


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## peeyaj

Schubert is my hero. I willingly give 10 years of my life for him, if I had the chance.


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## Il Pirata

I just watched my DVD of Brendel playing and explaining his D894 Sonata composed in 1826. Absolutely heavenly music, and inspired playing....

Ah RIP Franz Schubert!


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## PianoCoach

*Lead poisoning?*

I heard once that Schubert actually dies from lead poisoning. lead at that time was thought to cure syphilus. Does anyone know if this is true? I once heard that they did scientific studies on his bones and found the lead levels to be toxic. If so, terrible irony.


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## Edward Elgar

*Something I just read*

Schubert's explosive music is a feast for the ears. Combining cutting edge live electronics, sensors and crafted shards of sound, his work captures both the intimacy of acousmatic music and the viscerality of live improvisation.


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## Edward Elgar

PianoCoach said:


> I heard once that Schubert actually dies from lead poisoning. lead at that time was thought to cure syphilus. Does anyone know if this is true? I once heard that they did scientific studies on his bones and found the lead levels to be toxic. If so, terrible irony.


I think it was mercury poisoning. He was drinking mercury to cure his syphilus, but his cause of death was probably flu.


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## Sebastien Melmoth

'Lead poisoning?'

Schubert's final illness and death were almost certainly due to tertiary syphilis--(a specialist in venereal diseases attended his death-bed)--combined with mercury poisoning (to treat the syphilis).

Some lead was found in Beethoven's bones, and he too may have had syphilis; however lead preparations were used in powerding wigs and maintaining top-hats, so they are also possible sources.

Syphilis was a great scourge, and many of the greats contracted it. But doctors on signing death certificates almost always attributed death to other sources to save the deceased's reputation: 19th Century modesty.


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## toucan

In an article somewhere D.H. Lawrence attributes the rise of puritanism among christians during the Roman Empire to epidemics of veneral diseases - at a time when simple gonorrhea was less treatable - and therefore even scarier - than AIDS today.

The Rosamunde suite is fun - it resembles Haydn's Military Symphony and Weber's Konzertstuck for piano op 79.

Among songs well worth hearing there is *Standchen* D920 and *Der Gondelfahrer* D.809, with amazing choral parts, and also *Der Jungling an der Quelle* D300 - where the key is the name "Louise;" and *Das sie hier gewesen*, where the key (as emphasized by Schubert) is in the words "sie bliebe." The Sawallisch/EMI CD is recommended for the two former songs, Anne-Sofie Von Otter for the latter










For that premonition of eternity, the last piano sonata D.960, one couldn't over recommend the version by Vladimir Horowitz, on his 25th anaiversary album (1953 if my memory serves me well enough). A surprisingly classical approach (surprising considering Horowitz's fiery reputation), Balanced and harmonious, restrained, the emotivity nonetheless seeping spontaneously into the notes, without overemphasis by the pianist.


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## joen_cph

> For that premonition of eternity, the last piano sonata D.960, one couldn't over recommend the version by Vladimir Horowitz, on his 25th anaiversary album (1953 if my memory serves me well enough). A surprisingly classical approach (surprising considering Horowitz's fiery reputation), Balanced and harmonious, restrained, the emotivity nonetheless seeping spontaneously into the notes, without overemphasis by the pianist.


Yes ! Yes ! Well said !


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## emiellucifuge

There really is not much better than the 'great' symphony is there?


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## peeyaj

Herr Schubert's birthday is on January 29. It would be his 214th birthday...

I love you, my dear Franz. It's a pity you haven't live any longer.

Advanced happy birthday, my dear friend.


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## peeyaj

Happy birthday, Franz!


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## TresPicos

Happy 214th, Franz!


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## jurianbai

he's older than Dumbledore!


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## Rasa

Schubert, closing down Classicism, like a boss.


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## Huilunsoittaja

His birthday is today! I'm gonna celebrate somehow.


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## TresPicos

Huilunsoittaja said:


> His birthday is today! I'm gonna celebrate somehow.


So it seems. 

Happy 214th again, Franz!


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## World Violist

Happy birthday Schubert! It seems I've now got an excuse to sate my thirst for Schubert.


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## Art Rock

emiellucifuge said:


> There really is not much better than the 'great' symphony is there?


I beg to differ. For me the outstanding pieces in his repertoire (and he is a top 5 composer for me) are his unfinished symphony, his string quintet, Die Winterreise, the Octet, the impromptus and the string quartet Der Tod und das Maedchen. The 9th symphony does not do it for me - I even prefer 3,5 and 6 over it.


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## myaskovsky2002

*I love Schubert*

His music is wonderful, I prefer his piano works though.

Mikhail


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## peeyaj

I love Schubert..


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## Meaghan

I have been exploring Winterreise the last few days. I checked out a score from the library and have been playing it and singing it (only when no one is around to hear me ) and I am utterly bewitched. I'm even having dreams about it, which is a little disquieting. But it is such riveting music, even though I usually tend to roll my eyes a bit at the "Oh-woe-is-me" protagonists of German Romantic poetry. I just can't believe that I didn't hear this cycle for the first time until recently, or that I formed an opinion of Schubert without being familiar with it.


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## emiellucifuge

Art Rock said:


> I beg to differ. For me the outstanding pieces in his repertoire (and he is a top 5 composer for me) are his unfinished symphony, his string quintet, Die Winterreise, the Octet, the impromptus and the string quartet Der Tod und das Maedchen. The 9th symphony does not do it for me - I even prefer 3,5 and 6 over it.


Ah well!

The 9th does it for me and does it like no other.


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## peeyaj

Meaghan said:


> I have been exploring Winterreise the last few days. I checked out a score from the library and have been playing it and singing it (only when no one is around to hear me ) and I am utterly bewitched. I'm even having dreams about it, which is a little disquieting. But it is such riveting music, even though I usually tend to roll my eyes a bit at the "Oh-woe-is-me" protagonists of German Romantic poetry. I just can't believe that I didn't hear this cycle for the first time until recently, or that I formed an opinion of Schubert without being familiar with it.


Now, the magic of Schubert descend upon you..  Winterreise is the pinnacle of his art, the greatest song cycle ever written.. One of the highest expression of romantic idea, Winterreise is breathtaking. 

The last song, Hurdy-Gurdy Man still haunts me since I heard it years ago.


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## emphazis

I would suggest this wonderful recording of Schubert's Sonata for Arpeggione. http://www.talkclassical.com/13535-3-cello-sonatas-boccherini.html


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## Curiosity

TresPicos said:


> Even though he's so famous, I still think Schubert is underrated, usually dismissed as too light or too sweet or too immature, and unjustly shoved away into the shadow of the "great" Beethoven. In my opinion, the "average" Schubert symphony surpasses the "average" Beethoven symphony, immature or not.


I have to wonder why Schubert's fans are so adamant about comparing the man with Beethoven. I see this all the time on every classical forum I've frequented. Seems weird.... Personally I've yet to hear anything from the "great" Schubert that comes within a million miles of Beethoven's better works in terms of quality (I've listened to all of Schubert's most well-known compositions).


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## StlukesguildOhio

I have to wonder why Schubert's fans are so adamant about comparing the man with Beethoven. I see this all the time on every classical forum I've frequented. Seems weird.... Personally I've yet to hear anything from the "great" Schubert that comes within a million miles of Beethoven's better works in terms of quality (I've listened to all of Schubert's most well-known compositions).

Obviously a hearing impairment.


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## Polednice

Curiosity said:


> I have to wonder why Schubert's fans are so adamant about comparing the man with Beethoven. I see this all the time on every classical forum I've frequented. Seems weird.... Personally I've yet to hear anything from the "great" Schubert that comes within a million miles of Beethoven's better works in terms of quality (I've listened to all of Schubert's most well-known compositions).


The comparison is obviously because of the period in history that they both shared. In terms of quality, I think both composers perfected a similar level of technical mastery, it just depends on what kind of _style_ you want. If you want fragile lyrical beauty - something that really penetrates the soul - then Schubert will never let you down. If you want to bash yourself on the skull, cracking it like an egg, then Beethoven's your man.


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## Nix

His Cello Quintet is in that highest echelon of music, right with the late Beethoven quartets, Diabelli Variations and a few Symphonies (in my opinion). 

The last 2 string quartets, piano quintet, sonata arpeggione and Schoene Mullerin are also fantastic. I found die Winterreise to be a bit underwhelming (too much hype surrounding it before I listened perhaps), but still a gorgeous piece of music nonetheless. 

And I still have yet to explore the symphonies, piano sonatas, lieder, and choral works!


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## haydnfan

You've named my favorite chamber works, but I would also include the Swan Song cycle, the late piano sonatas and the unfinished symphony.


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## Couchie

Curiosity, I don't know who you are, but I want to know how you reach into my head and pull out my thoughts.

Hopefully we can bash John Cage together sometime. :tiphat:


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## CaptainAzure

'Trout' Piano Quintet and the 'Death and the Maiden' String Quartet destroy anything Beethoven composed for piano or strings.


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## Artemis

CaptainAzure said:


> Piano Quintet and the 'Death and the Maiden' String Quartet destroy anything Beethoven composed for piano or strings.


That's a very bold statement, but I agree with you.


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## Couchie

CaptainAzure said:


> 'Trout' Piano Quintet and the 'Death and the Maiden' String Quartet destroy anything Beethoven composed for piano or strings.


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## elgar's ghost

It's tantalising to wonder as to whether he had a couple of piano concertos in him had he lived longer.


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## violadude

Artemis said:


> That's a very bold statement, but I agree with you.


A bold statement indeed. However, I disagree.


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## 4'33"

BuddhaBandit said:


> Interesting... I saw this thread while listening to Andsnes' and Bostridge's *Winterreise*. Bostridge really gives a quite a tortured performance.
> 
> I've always like Schubert because he was the most melodic of the Classical/Romantic transition figures. While you can enjoy Beethoven for his development of motives, Schubert always gets you humming a tune. This is likely why Schubert's lieder are much better than Ludwig Van's (to quote Alex from _A Clockwork Orange_).
> 
> While I love his chamber music and, to a lesser extent, his symphonies, I particularly enjoy his solo piano works. Both the *Impromptus* and the *Wanderer Fantasie* seem to perpetually appear in my CD player.


Yeah, that "Ode to Joy" theme. So difficult to remember! Almost as abstract and difficult as the 2nd movement of Pathetique and the 2nd movement of the Emperor concerto! Thank god Schubert was around to write all those catchy melodies. If only Beethoven could have learned from Schubert how to write music that people love! lol...


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## 4'33"

CaptainAzure said:


> 'Trout' Piano Quintet and the 'Death and the Maiden' String Quartet destroy anything Beethoven composed for piano or strings.


Whew. I think I blacked out for a few seconds trying to imagine a world where that would be even remotely true. Although Schubert was a great tunesmith, you can always hear in his works his struggle to do something with the material. He runs out of gas in larger works - that's why he was the master of lieder and nothing else. Maybe he would have grown into a great composer had he lived longer, but he's really just a super talented one. Your passion for Schubert is great - but you make yourself look foolish with these kind of comparisons.


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## regressivetransphobe

4'33" said:


> Yeah, that "Ode to Joy" theme. So difficult to remember! Almost as abstract and difficult as the 2nd movement of Pathetique and the 2nd movement of the Emperor concerto! Thank god Schubert was around to write all those catchy melodies. If only Beethoven could have learned from Schubert how to write music that people love! lol...


It's almost as if generalizations exclude some material for the sake of making a point about more intangible qualities.


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## Artemis

4'33" said:


> ... Although Schubert was a great tunesmith, you can always hear in his works his struggle to do something with the material. He runs out of gas in larger works - that's why he was the master of lieder and nothing else. Maybe he would have grown into a great composer had he lived longer, but he's really just a super talented one.


I can see that I might have to revise my high opinion of Schubert in the light of this stunning revelation.

Oh, and pigs might fly ...


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## violadude

Wow, a few Beethoven fans around here who are quite passionate about their love of the omnipotent composer.

Don't get me wrong...I love Beethoven too. I would put him in my top 3 if not at the very top actually. But music didn't begin with him nor did it end after him.


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## violadude

4'33" said:


> Whew. I think I blacked out for a few seconds trying to imagine a world where that would be even remotely true. Although Schubert was a great tunesmith, you can always hear in his works his struggle to do something with the material. He runs out of gas in larger works - that's why he was the master of lieder and nothing else. Maybe he would have grown into a great composer had he lived longer, but he's really just a super talented one. Your passion for Schubert is great - but you make yourself look foolish with these kind of comparisons.


While I agree that I like Beethoven's late quartets better than any Schubert Quartets...I find your description of Schubert's music quite strange. Schubert was very well adapted to writing theme and variation movements (trout, death and the maiden) which, when you think about it, is a form that could really be renamed theme and development. The development being quite a bit more strict with theme and variation form of course...


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## jalex

violadude said:


> nor did it end after him.


Dunno about this. Everyone else still seems like a footnote to him


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## Artemis

jalex said:


> Dunno about this. Everyone else still seems like a footnote to him


 I'm not sure if you mean this seriously or whether it's more of a tongue-in-cheek comment

If it's a serious comment I would be completely astonished if you still hold this view after a few more years of listening to classical music. Whereas the appeal of Beethoven might loom large now - and I'm not doubting that his music often does appeal to noobs because of its romantic flavours, exciting sounds and strong dynamism etc - it is quite usual to find that one's interest in this style of music sooner or later gives way to other styles/composers, if not completely at least partially.

In related threads, several people on this forum have said they started out with Beethoven but then moved onto developing a liking for other composers. I've met people on some forums who went so far in this direction that they finished up hating Beethoven. Even if you don't go as far as that, I'm pretty sure that one day you will that Beethoven by no means had a monopoly of creative genius in the field of classical music. Other composers, both before and after Beethoven, have made some equally brilliant contributions to the art. The trick at an early age is not to become mesmerised by any one composer, but to be more open-minded.


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## jalex

Artemis said:


> I'm not sure if you mean this seriously or whether it's more of a tongue-in-cheek comment
> 
> If it's a serious comment I would be completely astonished if you still hold this view after a few more years of listening to classical music. Whereas the appeal of Beethoven might loom large now - and I'm not doubting that his music often does appeal to noobs because of its romantic flavours, exciting sounds and strong dynamism etc - it is quite usual to find that one's interest in this style of music sooner or later gives way to other styles/composers, if not completely at least partially.


Don't worry, I was joking. Though I genuinely do believe that no-one since him has reached his height of creative genius. Some have maybe come close. Also I consider Bach a better composer, and Mozart to be right up there with him.


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## violadude

Artemis said:


> I'm not sure if you mean this seriously or whether it's more of a tongue-in-cheek comment
> 
> If it's a serious comment I would be completely astonished if you still hold this view after a few more years of listening to classical music. Whereas the appeal of Beethoven might loom large now - and I'm not doubting that his music often does appeal to noobs because of its romantic flavours, exciting sounds and strong dynamism etc - it is quite usual to find that one's interest in this style of music sooner or later gives way to other styles/composers, if not completely at least partially.
> 
> In related threads, several people on this forum have said they started out with Beethoven but then moved onto developing a liking for other composers. I've met people on some forums who went so far in this direction that they finished up hating Beethoven. Even if you don't go as far as that, I'm pretty sure that one day you will that Beethoven by no means had a monopoly of creative genius in the field of classical music. Other composers, both before and after Beethoven, have made some equally brilliant contributions to the art. The trick at an early age is not to become mesmerised by any one composer, but to be more open-minded.


I don't quite agree with this either. I don't think Beethoven's music should be something you "graduate" from. I was just speaking to the tendency of some of his more "hardcore" fans of his on here to underplay/underrate the achievements of other composers by placing Beethoven on an unreachable god-like pedestal.


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## 4'33"

violadude said:


> I don't quite agree with this either. I don't think Beethoven's music should be something you "graduate" from. I was just speaking to the tendency of some of his more "hardcore" fans of his on here to underplay/underrate the achievements of other composers by placing Beethoven on an unreachable god-like pedestal.


Yeah, I can't stand when hardcore fans underplay/underrate the achievements of other composers, like this little gem that started it out:

"'Trout' Piano Quintet and the 'Death and the Maiden' String Quartet destroy anything Beethoven composed for piano or strings." posted by CaptainAzure.

The first composer I liked was Tchaikovsky. Burned through that in about a day. I've admired Beethoven's music for over 25 years, and I still find much to learn from it. There are endless layers in his music, and even though I've gone on to liking everything from Hildegard to Michael Torke, I still come back to B. If you think you can "graduate" from an artist the caliber of Beethoven then you truly do not understand art. There is a reason for the position he holds in Western culture -every bit of it earned by his massive genius and not hyped up by tales of childhood prodigy or by the speed in which he wrote his music.


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## regressivetransphobe

4'33" said:


> If you think you can "graduate" from an artist the caliber of Beethoven then you truly do not understand art. There is a reason for the position he holds in Western culture


Good citizen. Public and academic opinion must not be deviated from.


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## fartwriggler

Schubert has been CRIMINALLY underrated over the years-he has still yet to be spoken of in the same breath as Mozart or Ludwig Van....My all-time favourite composer- a master of melody and in command of an emotional palette that rivals that of the other two-capable of light,dancing melody like Mozart or plumbing Beethoven's stormy depths....


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## Artemis

fartwriggler said:


> Schubert has been CRIMINALLY underrated over the years-he has still yet to be spoken of in the same breath as Mozart or Ludwig Van....My all-time favourite composer- a master of melody and in command of an emotional palette that rivals that of the other two-capable of light,dancing melody like Mozart or plumbing Beethoven's stormy depths....


Things aren't that bad. You've joined the "party" here a bit late but in a poll of members earlier this year Schubert came out in 4th position after Beethoven, Mozart, Bach. That's a very good result for someone who died so young.


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## fartwriggler

Ha ha! maybe I got a little carried away-good to see he got in the top 4,but I still don't think he gets his due....


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## Polednice

With regards to a Beethoven and Schubert comparison, I think it ought to be said that while Schubert didn't write as many, and though he has a few weak ones, he achieved the same greatness in his piano sonatas.

Plus, if you consider the Wanderer Fantasy - which should be enough in itself! - as well as the Moments Musicaux, Impromptus, Duets _etc._, it's obvious that Schubert was a true master of piano music - not just lieder. I would think it's fair to say that Schubert trumps Beethoven on non-Sonata piano music.


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## StlukesguildOhio

Whew. I think I blacked out for a few seconds trying to imagine a world where that would be even remotely true. Although Schubert was a great tunesmith, you can always hear in his works his struggle to do something with the material. He runs out of gas in larger works - that's why he was the master of lieder and nothing else. Maybe he would have grown into a great composer had he lived longer, but he's really just a super talented one. Your passion for Schubert is great - but you make yourself look foolish with these kind of comparisons.

Or perhaps rather you make yourself look like the usual sophomoric fanboy by such statements.:tiphat:


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## haydnfan

I've been listening to Schubert's Piano Trio No. 2 ALOT lately. Taking advantage of nml to hear many different performances on top of the ones in my collection. I was inspired by Barry Lyndon, what a marvelous melody...

but I what love is that each movement has the same level of wonderful melody, and divides the line between charming salon music and powerful, bold serious art in a way that few pieces do.

btw my favorite moment is the return of the theme from the slow movement into the final movement. Not just for a taste of that beautiful melody again but the absolute feeling of rightness that perfect! this should happen right now feeling. It's better than the usual resolve to the home key at the end of the piece.

I love the interplay between the instruments. The violin and cello play together or off each other in this delicate interplay but they allow the piano to sing, and I swear the intimate gentle playing of the piano is what makes the work perfect!


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## Artemis

haydnfan said:


> I've been listening to Schubert's Piano Trio No. 2 ALOT lately. !


It's a fantastic work, as too is his Piano Trio No 1. Some people reckon that Beethoven's Archduke Trio is the very best piano trio, but in my humble opinion Schubert's Piano Trio Nos 1 and 2 are up there with it, or not far behind.

Of course, I suspect that this viewpoint may be disputed by Beethoven's "sophomoric fanboy" club, as SLG so aptly described it, or possibly by some of T-C's "adolescent music scholars" (as member trazom so aptly referred to them), but what do they know?

In my book, Schubert was not just the world's best ever song-writer, but also the creator of some of the finest piano solo and duet, chamber music, stage work music, orchestral music, and sacred music. Schubert was astonishingly good in all areas (opera excepted), and Beethovenians know this which is why some them choose to target Schubert (along with Mozart) in so many of their lame-looking and often feeble comparisons.


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## StlukesguildOhio

I've long loved his marvelous Impromptus:
















In this last example with it's shimmering sounds one can almost hear Chopin waiting in the wings.


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## HarpsichordConcerto

Which work did he ambitiously worked on and hoped for public success, that was a large scale piece, but never received the recognition he had hoped for?

_Alfonso und Estrella_, has anyone here heard of it? Care to admit "no"?


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## Artemis

HarpsichordConcerto said:


> Which work did he ambitiously worked on and hoped for public success, that was a large scale piece, but never received the recognition he had hoped for?
> 
> _Alfonso und Estrella_, has anyone here heard of it? Care to admit "no"?


I'm not sure what you are getting at, but yes of course I've heard of it.

For anyone who is interested, they can read up on the complete list of Schubert's works HERE

And for further information on the two main operas by Schubert that have survived, Alfonso und Estrella, and Fierrabras, they can follow these links.

As anyone who knows anything about Schubert will know, he had little or no luck with his several ventures into opera or other stage works, not because the music writing was poor, but because the libretti were not up to scratch and his various efforts never caught on in the competitive environment for this type of work at the time. Nevertheless, these operas listed above contain some very nice music. I have copies of all.

Schubert, of course, lived a largely bohemian lifestyle, away from the limelight. In his own lifetime he never achieved much success in anything he wrote outside a few songs. Nor did he go very far out of his way to seek fame. He was largely content to leave the "finances" to his friends, hardly ever glory-seeking, whilst he concentrated on what he did best, write music. Largely, that's all he lived for. He died virtually penniless.

Schubert created an astonishing amount of music, much of which never saw the light of day in his own lifetime. The big thing in the later 19th Century that so fascinated the music circles of the day was the piecemeal discovery of lots of works by Schubert that had been discovered accidentally by various composers and other researchers. Brahms spent a lot of time piecing together various works by Schubert some 50 years after the composer's death. Schubert became the ever-increasing darling of the music going public as these discoveries were made and given wider publicity.


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## StlukesguildOhio

Yes the music from Schubert's fragments and failed attempts at opera can be quite magnificent:











(Again... it seem Beethoven isn't the only composer whose work is chosen to speak in times of darkness)


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## HarpsichordConcerto

Artemis said:


> I'm not sure what you are getting at, but yes of course I've heard of it.


I was trying to promote Schubert's lesser known but still significant pieces of work. Many of the "fan club" members who make loud comments about Schubert, as we have read above, are often not aware of these pieces.

I have Harnoncourt's version of _Alfonso und Estrella_ on DVD. It's an interesting piece because many numbers oscillate a little from serious Romantic orchestral styled arias back to a more gentle leider like style that he was king of.

Another set of works I like to recommend are his masses. Quite exhilarating and often not far showing influences from Haydn's mastperieces. Orchestra of the Age of Enlightenment / Bruno Weil have done the whole set. Much recommended.


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## haydnfan

HarpsichordConcerto said:


> Another set of works I like to recommend are his masses. Quite exhilarating and often not far showing influences from Haydn's mastperieces. Orchestra of the Age of Enlightenment / Bruno Weil have done the whole set. Much recommended.


I have one of the cds from that set. Great performances, great music, need to acquire the rest of the set sometime!


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## Artemis

In my estimation, for Mass settings specifically, and for sacred music more generally, the three "gods" are Mozart, Haydn, Schubert. I'm speaking here of composers from the main Classical/early Romantic era. I do like Victoria as well, plus Palestrina, but I'll leave those much earlier composers to one side for this post.

Although technically very competent and highly regarded, I'm afraid that Beethoven's Missa Solemnis doesn't inspire me anything like as much as does the best on offer from the other three composers. Beethoven's Mass in C minor, Opus 86, is quite pedestrian in comparison with the Missa Solemnis. Apart from these two sacred works, I'm not sure that Beethoven wrote much else in this area. No, I can't think of anything else, in which case it's not a lot, is it? Perhaps it's yet further proof, if any were needed, that he really wasn't that comfortable writing for voice. Another thing for the Beethovenian "fanboys" to contemplate.

Mozart, Haydn and Schubert, by contrast, wrote a great deal of sacred/liturgical material. Confining attention to Schubert, his works are probably the least well-known among this trilogy. But I have to say that if I could take only one composer's set of sacred music to a desert island, and be stuck with that alone among sacred music for ever, it would be Schubert's.

For me, Schubert's best sacred works are: D 167 (Mass 2), D 452 (Mass 452), D 486 (Magnifcat), D 678 (Mass 5), D 950 (Mass 6), D 962 (Tantum Ergo), D 963 (Offertorium).

Among this group the jewel in the crown is D 950 (Mass 6). This work was drafted on a commission in mid 1828 (he died in November of that year). In this work Schubert incorporated gushing textures, some of his best melodic lines. The whole thing is rich in harmonic modulations and included his trademark repetitions. Also, Schubert employed fugal counterpoint in the Gloria, Credo, and Sanctus sections. Typical of Schubert's Mass settings, he did not write for the words '_I believe in one Catholic and Apostolic Church_' in the Credo, which exclusion landed him in bother with the Church and why these works were not officially sanctioned for formal liturgical use. Nobody knows why he excluded these words, except for the obvious possible explanation, but if that is so it is still a mystery. The work was a very late one in Schubert's life, any like several others from this era seemed to possess a super-virtuous quality.

Of the several version of D 950 in my possession, I like best the version by the Wolfgang Sawallisch/Sinfonieorchester Des Bayerischen Rundfunks/Helen Donath//Brigitte Fassbaender/Peter Schreier. I must have another look round to see if there is anything better on the market, but I would doubt it as this one ticks all the right boxes for me.


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## TrazomGangflow

Schubert your piano works are beautiful and varied. (not to mention your symphonic works) You are surely one of the greats of classical music.


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## jalex

Artemis said:


> Perhaps it's yet further proof, if any were needed, that he really wasn't that comfortable writing for voice. Another thing for the Beethovenian "fanboys" to contemplate.


Or maybe he just wasn't interested in writing lots for voice. The 'Missa Solemnis' is widely recognised as the most significant mass setting of it's time and as one of the greatest ever. Similarly his opera 'Fidelio', despite the stick I've seen it get sometimes on this forum, is from what I've read (I've never seen it) regarded as one of the finest operas of the period. He was of course very focused on producing fewer major works of an extremely high standard (9 symphonies to Mozart's 41 etc etc) and clearly lacked Mozart's skill of 'tossing out one masterpiece after another'. Being Beethoven he had to have a lofty grand libretto for his opera and he would likely have been uncooperative with theatre managers etc etc which might go some way towards explaining his small output in this department (apparently he'd been interested in writing an opera for some time). As for masses it seems likely to me that his interests were mainly elsewhere (I think you do discredit to the Mass in C major; it's far from his best work but it's still pretty damn good). And let's not forget the Choral Fantasy, another fine vocal work.

Whatever the case may be I've never noticed anything in his limited vocal writing to suggest any more discomfort writing for voice than he had writing for any other medium. And before you bring it up let's bear in mind that he didn't take the writing of lieder anywhere near as seriously as Schubert did.

On topic, I've only heard two of Schubert's masses but I thought they were excellent and they along with some others are sitting at the top of my Amazon 'to buy later' list


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## Artemis

jalex said:


> Or maybe he just wasn't interested in writing lots for voice. The 'Missa Solemnis' is widely recognised as the most significant mass setting of it's time and as one of the greatest ever. Similarly his opera 'Fidelio', despite the stick I've seen it get sometimes on this forum, is from what I've read (I've never seen it) regarded as one of the finest operas of the period.


I was merely pointing out that in my opinion Beethoven's strong suit was not writing for voice. By this I meant that works involving voice do not feature strongly in his overall output, compared with works for solo instruments, chamber, or orchestra.

I was also suggesting that he may have struggled to complete his major vocal works more than he evidently did other types of work, in order to achieve the high standards he set himself. As far as I'm aware, his one and only opera _Fidelio_ took him ages to complete. I believe that he threatened to abandon it altogether at one stage because he got fed up with for various reasons. He kept on changing the overture so that there were four versions produced before he selected one. In any event, it's not a highly rated opera among opera buffs, as far as I can detect. In the T-C list of top 200+ operas, it's at No 33, which is not startingly high by any stretch of the imagination.

His _Missa Solemnis_ may be rated highly in some quarters but it doesn't appeal much to me. It sounds more like a typical orchestral piece with choral pieces added, rather than a liturgical work as such. To me, it has none of the religious connotations that I associate with Masses generally, like those of Mozart, Haydn or Schubert for example.

Nor would it seem that this work appeals all that much to those T-C members who have been participating in the "project" to identify the top 200+ classical works. I see that the _Missa Solemnis_ is actually lowly placed in the No 194 spot. Even though I don't much care for it personally, this seems to me to be an unduly low ranking, but I had nothing whatsover to do with this position as I have kept well away from all that voting. Interestingly, Alwyn's Harp Concerto reaches a much higher position at No 134. Several other entries which are placed ahead of the _Missa Solemnis_ are equally puzzling.

Nor did any of Beethoven's vocal works achieve anything all that path-breaking in the innovation sense, unless you include the idea of adding a choral ending to his last symphony. I guess one might also say that _An die Ferne Geliebte, Op 98,_ is a song cycle but it's nothing like as far-reaching and novel as Schubert's corresponding work in the field of song-writing which was far more significant, revolutionary, and of longer-lasting interest.


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## jalex

Artemis said:


> In any event, it's not a highly rated opera among opera buffs, as far as I can detect. In the T-C list of top 200+ operas, it's at No 33, which is not startingly high by any stretch of the imagination.


Like I said I know it's talked down a lot here but whenever I see it's name mentioned in print, including a couple of books specifically about opera, it is always spoken of with equal respect to all Beethoven's other mid-period masterpieces; I was looking at a book charting the lives and works of the great and not-so-great composers a few days ago which referred to it as the best opera of the early 19th century (presumably until Wagner and Verdi started getting their respective acts together though I am not familiar with opera during the period at all). Not being capable of making my own judgement I would tend to side with authorities on the subject rather than the notoriously unreliable TC lists.



> Nor would it seem that this work appeals all that much to those T-C members who have been participating in the "project" to identify the top 200+ classical works. I see that the _Missa Solemnis_ is actually lowly placed in the No 194 spot. Even though I don't much care for it personally, this seems to me to be an unduly low ranking, but I had nothing whatsover to do with this position as I have kept well away from all that voting. Interestingly, Alwyn's Harp Concerto reaches a much higher position at No 134. Several other entries which are placed ahead of the _Missa Solemnis_ are equally puzzling.


Oh come on, that list is almost completely meaningless. Brahms' clarinet quintet at number 2? (Mozart's would probably be in my top ten, but seriously?) Saint-Saens Organ Symphony ahead of at least eighty works which are better than it including the Grosse Fuge? Only two late Beethoven string quartets, and _none_ by Bartok? Only three Mozart piano concertos (missing two of the best imo, along with symphony 39)? Webern appearing for the first time _after_ such names as Scelsi, Rodrigo, Suk and Gliere?



> Nor did any of Beethoven's vocal works achieve anything all that path-breaking in the innovation sense, unless you include the idea of adding a choral ending to his last symphony. I guess one might also say that _An die Ferne Geliebte, Op 98,_ is a song cycle but it's nothing like as far-reaching and novel as Schubert's corresponding work in the field of song-writing which was far more significant, revolutionary, and of longer-lasting interest.


Dunno about the opera but the Solemn Mass is stylistically the single most innovative mass I can think of in that no-one had ever composed one like that before and none ever did again.


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## Nix

jalex said:


> He was of course very focused on producing fewer major works of an extremely high standard (9 symphonies to Mozart's 41 etc etc) and clearly lacked Mozart's skill of 'tossing out one masterpiece after another'.


Not exactly true. Beethoven was still extremely prolific- he had 138 Opus No's, and 205 unpublished works. And the thing to keep in mind is that a Beethoven opus could contain several pieces (the opus 1 is 3 piano trios), while a Mozart Kochel number always refers to one piece, no matter the size. Furthermore, Beethoven was literally 'tossing out one masterpiece after another.' The 23rd Piano Sonata, Violin Concerto, Piano Concerto #4, String Quartets 7-9, Symphonies 4-6, Piano Trio's 5 and 6, the 3rd Cello Sonata and many more minor pieces were all written over the course of 3 years. The main difference is that Beethoven lived long enough to have a period where he didn't write a lot of music (around 1815-1820).

But of course Schubert was more prolific then the both of them, considering his age.


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## StlukesguildOhio

Like I said I know it's talked down a lot here but whenever I see it's name mentioned in print, including a couple of books specifically about opera, it is always spoken of with equal respect to all Beethoven's other mid-period masterpieces; I was looking at a book charting the lives and works of the great and not-so-great composers a few days ago which referred to it as the best opera of the early 19th century (presumably until Wagner and Verdi started getting their respective acts together though I am not familiar with opera during the period at all).

_Fidelio_ is far from ranking among the finest operas ever. The fact that it even ranked at 33 among the TC opera ranking probably owes far more to Beethoven fanatics than to any true objective valuation of the work. There are probably few opera aficionados anywhere near as familiar with any of the arias from _Fidelio_ than they are with those of any number of other composers. As for the libretto... by most critical opinions it rather sucks... certainly it has nothing on Mozart's librettos in spite of the fact that he was just tossing out one masterpiece after another without any concern for something like the libretto.

Beethoven's Fidelio was important in helping to develop the tradition of opera in German. Mozart's _Die Entführung aus dem Serail_ and _Die Zauberflöte_ helped to establish German opera as something to be taken seriously. _Fidelio_ stands along side Weber's operas in maintaining some legitimacy to the notion of German opera prior to the towering achievements of Wagner. Nevertheless... the finest operas of the time were certainly Italian: the _bel canto_ operas of Rossini, Bellini, Donizetti, Pacini, Mercadante, etc...

Seriously, for better of worse Beethoven continually struggled with any attempt to compose "upon demand." In this sense he is the true Romantic artist... spewing forth his emotions upon the page and never willing to accept anything less. None of his attempts at opera or other theatrical music, occasional music, songs, etc... forms in which he would need to subjugate his art to the wants of others... work in a collaborative manner... are among his better achievements. Neither _Fidelio_ nor his lieder can stand up to the operas or song cycles of any number of composers who are no where near as great a composer as Beethoven. Of course Schubert was no more... possibly even less... successful in the realm of opera. Of course this cannot be attributed to his lack of efforts or his lack of his talent for composing lyrical and dramatic music. Unfortunately, as a virtually unknown composer, Schubert never had access to anything approaching a quality libretto. Ultimately, he raised the lieder to an almost operatic level.

Dunno about the opera but the Solemn Mass is stylistically the single most innovative mass I can think of in that no-one had ever composed one like that before and none ever did again.

And this objective analysis is of course based upon a solid grasp of liturgical music from the Middle-Ages through the present.


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## Nix

StlukesguildOhio said:


> Neither _Fidelio_ nor his lieder can stand up to the operas or song cycles of any number of composers who are no where near as great a composer as Beethoven.


Hey now, _An Die Ferne Geliebte_ is no _Winterreise_ but it's still pretty darn good.


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## Artemis

jalex said:


> Dunno about the opera but the *Solemn Mass* is stylistically the single most innovative mass I can think of in that no-one had ever composed one like that before and none ever did again.


 What is so stylistically innovative about the _Missa Solemnis_? I'm not aware that it broke any new ground stylistically. It's Beethoven's biggest and most well-known sacred work by far, and is of very high quality, (even though I don't like it much), but what is so new about it stylistically?

If you are referring to its splitting up each of the main 5 main components of the mass (Kyrie, Gloria, Sanctus, Credo, Agnus Dei) into shorter independent musical movements, this was not new. Some of Zelenka's masses (e.g. _Missa Sanctissimae Trinitatis_ completed in 1736) had previously done this. Bach's _Mass in B_ Minor, completed in 1748 after an incredibly long gestation period, did the same sort of thing in terms of writing separately for further sub-divisions of the 5 main sections of the traditional mass.

Bach's Mass is also quite a bit longer than Beethoven's if that's what you mean by "innovative".

In terms of pomp and solemnity, it was by no means the first of its kind; for example, Mozart's _Mass in C minor_ (K 427), is another striking example of a major sacred work, generously scored, and, despite the fact that it is incomplete, is not a lot shorter than the Missa Solemnis. Mozart's Requiem is of course another magnificent work on a grand scale, elegantly and generously scored.

Several Haydn's later masses are based on a symphonic form (incorporating sonata form in some sections), like parts of the _Missa Solemnis_.

As for your suggestion that no-one ever composed anything like it afterwards, this can't be right. Schubert's _Mass 6_ (completed in 1828) is generously scored and is quite long too. Much more so than his previous masses, it is a choral mass, relegating the vocal soloists to three brief episodes, and provides an extremely active role for the orchestra. As I have said previously, this is one of my favourite Masses as it sounds right to me in every department.

Later on, Berlioz and Verdi wrote great monster requiem masses, yet still following the essential make-up of the Tridentine Mass, involving very sophisticated orchestration. Bruckner and Dvorak continued the tradition of writing of grand masses well into the late 19th century.

So I'm not clear what you are referring to.


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## lou

Last week I found an unopened set of this vinyl collection in a thrift store. I paid $5 for it. Judging from the price these sellers are charging on Amazon, I'm assuming it has not been released on CD?

It is "Schubert: The Complete Symphonies" Leopold Ludwig & The London Symphony Orchestra on Murray Hill Records.


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## violadude

Franz Schubert-

Pieces I have by Schubert

Die Winterisse
Der Swanengesang 
Death and the maiden string quartet
Quartettstaz

I know, I know, I have criminally low amount of Schubert. I love almost every piece I've heard by him. I think there are some songs in Schwanengesang that are a little boring but thats all I can think of. Two of his greatest strengths in my mind are his incredible gift for emotionally moving melodies and his ability to move between remote keys with great ease. Wintereisse, even with an overall cold and depressing tone, has such a wide range of emotions. Just about any emotion one can feel during the process of a break up or lost of a loved one is felt in this piece. It's quite incredible and one of the most relatable pieces of music out there. Death and the Maiden of course is very intense and moving from start to finish. Quartettstatz has some really great melodies in it. Anyway, ya, Schubert: Very gifted melodist, a strong talent in conveying deeply felt emotions and great at modulating to remote keys with graceful ease.


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## mtmailey

personally i like his music that is not songs better-i like his die schone mullerin


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## mtmailey

i like his symphonys,& string music the most like his string quintet in C it was like a hour long but it sounds great-the movement 3 is my favorite.


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## martijn

Why do threads about Mozart and Schubert always have to end with a discussion about Beethoven's superiority?


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## violadude

martijn said:


> Why do threads about Mozart and Schubert always have to end with a discussion about Beethoven's superiority?


mine didn't.


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## mtmailey

i would say the lack of knowledge of other composers- i heard a symphony by Dvorak his #9 that sounds better than Beethoven,even Schubert symphony #9 sounds better than Beethoven #9


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## martijn

And so why you have an image of Beethoven? I do agree with you though, the 9th symphony of Beethoven is the most overrated work ever. I love the scherzo with that timpani, but apart from that I'm not very fond of the work.

Anyway Schubert, what a delightful composer. He is always called the greatest melodist of all time, with which I can't agree. I still have to figure out which melodies are meant. But his music is always inspired, and his harmonies are absolutely crazy for his time. He is much more progressive than Beethoven in this respect.


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## mtmailey

Schubert symphonys are just fine to me so is his Rosamunde- his symphonys 8 & 9 sounds better than Beethoven symphonys BUT NOT THE NO 7.


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## jalex

Ignore [filler]


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## jalex

martijn said:


> And so why you have an image of Beethoven? I do agree with you though, the 9th symphony of Beethoven is the most overrated work ever. I love the scherzo with that timpani, but apart from that I'm not very fond of the work.


It's overrated because you don't like it? Or is there something else?


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## Igneous01

i have listened to all of schuberts string quartets, his unfinished symphony, his well known songs and lieders, and his piano trio and trout.

But what I really enjoy, and come to understand as a master of great potential, is his unfinished canata - Lazarus. So simple yet so elegant in writing. Its the most engaging work by far for me.


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## martijn

Well, jalex, I don't have the mathematical evidence that it is overrated, if that's what you mean. In my opinion, the 9th is overlong, pretentious, rather poorly orchestrated (compared to the orchestration of Beethoven himself, not to mention compared to the orchestration of, let's say, Mozart), and the last movement is a hysterical mess.


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## martijn

Nix said:


> Not exactly true. Beethoven was still extremely prolific- he had 138 Opus No's, and 205 unpublished works. And the thing to keep in mind is that a Beethoven opus could contain several pieces (the opus 1 is 3 piano trios), while a Mozart Kochel number always refers to one piece, no matter the size. Furthermore, Beethoven was literally 'tossing out one masterpiece after another.' The 23rd Piano Sonata, Violin Concerto, Piano Concerto #4, String Quartets 7-9, Symphonies 4-6, Piano Trio's 5 and 6, the 3rd Cello Sonata and many more minor pieces were all written over the course of 3 years. The main difference is that Beethoven lived long enough to have a period where he didn't write a lot of music (around 1815-1820).
> 
> But of course Schubert was more prolific then the both of them, considering his age.


I doubt if Schubert was more prolific than Mozart. One shouldn't think in terms of opus numbers. Schubert has written more individual pieces than Mozart, but Schubert's were in general shorter than Mozart. If you consider the total duration of their works, Schubert and Mozart probably turn out to be more or less equally prolific. But one should not forget then that much of what Schubert wrote were songs and works for piano, while Mozart was more versatile and in general wrote for greater ensembles.


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## jalex

martijn said:


> In my opinion, the 9th is overlong, pretentious


Fine, can't really argue with that if it's how you feel



> rather poorly orchestrated


Any specific passages in mind?



> and the last movement is a hysterical mess.


Could you be more specific? Do you mean structurally?


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## martijn

I think that if the 9th had been 25 minutes long, it wouldn't have been so popular. As I've argued here before, the general audience tends to think that the longer a work is, or the thicker a book, the greater it is.

For example, the first movement, I don't like the orchestration. I'm not an expert in orchestration, I should study it first to tell what it exactly is, but I still can _hear_ it. I'm glad that lately I read someone on internet who shared the same view on the orchestration of the 9th.

An example in the fourth movement, the vocal writing, Beethoven, as he acknowledged himself, wasn't able to write well for the voice. Some passages in the fourth movement are impossible in this respect. And Stravinksy once said that the 4th movement of the 9th was a failure, but that it was only logical, because he took a "german drinking song" as a theme to write variations on. I think he had a good point there.

But I love Beethoven a lot, don't worry.


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## jalex

martijn said:


> I think that if the 9th had been 25 minutes long, it wouldn't have been so popular. As I've argued here before, the general audience tends to think that the longer a work is, or the thicker a book, the greater it is.


No-one thinks Brian's Gothic is the greatest ever written, few Mahler fans think the third is his best. B's fifth, clocking in at just under 35 minutes in the classic Kleiber recording, is one of the most highly regarded symphonies not just of Beethoven but of anyone. I could go on. Beethoven aimed higher in the ninth than ever before and most people think he hit the mark. Longer works tend to be regarded as greater because they often show the composer aiming higher, trying to do more, and hence it shouldn't be surprising that when these attempts are successful the works end up being well thought of.



> For example, the first movement, I don't like the orchestration. I'm not an expert in orchestration, I should study it first to tell what it exactly is, but I still can _hear_ it. I'm glad that lately I read someone on internet who shared the same view on the orchestration of the 9th.


The entire movement? Or certain passages?



> An example in the fourth movement, the vocal writing, Beethoven, as he acknowledged himself, wasn't able to write well for the voice. Some passages in the fourth movement are impossible in this respect.


Didn't he acknowledge that he found it very difficult to write well for voices, not that he couldn't do it? His late works are peppered with ridiculous/impossible demands on performers (the held high soprano notes in the Missa Solemnis, the fast double bass passage in the 4th movement of the ninth) but this is I think more properly seen as an unwillingness to compromise artistic vision than as a lack of working knowledge of performers' abilities. Which will probably strike you as stubbornly stupid, but that's better than incompetence, right?



> And Stravinksy once said that the 4th movement of the 9th was a failure, but that it was only logical, because he took a "german drinking song" as a theme to write variations on. I think he had a good point there.


Wasn't it Schiller's poem which had been used as words to a drinking song? I am fairly certain the tune is original.



> But I love Beethoven a lot, don't worry.


Hey, I'm not worried


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## martijn

I still don't like, in general, these "great works". Personally, I find often that when an artist wants to aim higher, he fails. And I still think that for the general audience "the bigger is better" goes. You can find it everywhere in "greatest" lists, not just in classical music.


I don't know if it's the entire work, or entire first movement that doesn't please me in terms of orchestration, I should relisten to it, but I don't often listen to the 9th. If I remember well some tuttis in the first movement didn't sound too well in my ears.

I don't know how Beethoven put it exactly, but he admitted I believe that he didn't know if something he wrote could be sung. I don't like his vocal writing, it's often unnatural. Sometimes I've the feeling that every weird thing Beethoven did has to be regarded as audacious, uncompromising and innovative, while it also could be called unnatural, even on the edge of the incompetent. I think in Beethoven it's often both at the same time.

What Stravinsky probably meant, was that it sounded like a German drinking song, rather than it was derived from a folk tune. The melody is original as far I know.


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## Igneous01

i dont mean to interrupt, but why is there a beethoven debate about the 9th on the schubert thread?


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## jalex

Igneous01 said:


> i dont mean to interrupt, but why is there a beethoven debate about the 9th on the schubert thread?


Excellent question.

Here's some Schubert:


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## Igneous01

ah, my favorite quartet, and second favorite movement of it (2nd mov is my favorite)


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## Oskaar

I love schubert. And I love this forum. But I am quite new to classics, so dobt ask me intricate questions! hehe. If anyone in her want a spotify invite, I have several.


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## mtmailey

martijn said:


> Well, jalex, I don't have the mathematical evidence that it is overrated, if that's what you mean. In my opinion, the 9th is overlong, pretentious, rather poorly orchestrated (compared to the orchestration of Beethoven himself, not to mention compared to the orchestration of, let's say, Mozart), and the last movement is a hysterical mess.


 well the schubert 9th last movement i do not like the most but the first 3 movements are my favorites, also it sounds better than beethoven anyway plus to me it is long enough.


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## mtmailey

Igneous01 said:


> i dont mean to interrupt, but why is there a Beethoven debate about the 9th on the Schubert thread?


 well because i think people talk about Beethoven as if he is the greatest composer out there but that is their opinion anyway,his music sounds great but other composer have better music than him.


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## martijn

The irony was that I was opposing against discussions about Beethoven in a Schubert (or Mozart) thread. Which actually ended in a debate about Beethoven. 

Still, my question is open, could anybody convince me of the fact that Schubert is the greatest melodist of all composers, as he so often is called?


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## Guest

"The greatest melodist of all composers"? I don't know, but I suspect there are several composers who would be equal in this respect: Schubert/Mozart/Mendelssohn/Chopin/Tchaikovsky/Dvorak/Rachmaninov. For me, these composers all share "first place" in this regard - when I really think about it.


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## Webernite

PHP:




I actually think the greatest melodist was Schumann. But in any case, if martijn is asking for examples of Schubert's best melodies, here are a few:


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## martijn

I don't have a headphone here, so I have to ask what fragment three is. I'm familiar with the sonata in the second fragment, but by head I can't recall the melody. 

I won't deny that Schubert wrote some great melodies, of course not. But the greatest melodist, that I've never seen in him, and I know quite some works by him. Schumann is indeed a good example of a brilliant melodist. The same goes for Tchaikovsky and Mendelssohn, though people can be very snobbery about those composers. Bach, in a way, could be called one of the supreme melodists as well, but I wouldn't him place him at the top, because in my opinion a good melody should be based on the voice rather than being instrumental. In that respect I could name Mozart as well, though melody isn't as important for him as is often suggested.


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## martijn

ah I didn't see your post yet, CountenanceAnglaise, it's funny that we both mentioned Tchaikovsky and Mendelssohn. And I was also thinking of including Dvorak. About Rachmaninoff I'm not sure.

With Chopin I've the same feeling as with Schubert, for sure, a great melodist, but I'm more startled by his harmonies.


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## Guest

Martijn, I forgot Schumann - what WAS I thinking?! Yes, he's a magnificently melodic composer. I haven't heard the last example before, which was provided of the music of Schubert, so I can't help you with it. Startled by Chopin's harmonies? Yes, but he's a wonderful melodist. Think of that main theme in the piano in the 1st piano concerto. That section always brings me to my knees - same with Rachmaninov in his 1st and 2nd piano concertos.

Bach you say? Listen to Angela Hewitt. This sounds like melody to me, but it's definitely not melody in the 'conventional' romantic sense:






I'm not sure I really like her playing - it's a bit precious and avoids risk-taking!


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## martijn

Well, Webernite came up with Schumann. And he was right to do so. He was a great admirer of Schubert by the way.

Oh, I didn't deny that Chopin's melodies are gorgeous. There are many examples you could choose. Just, with Schubert and Chopin, while their melodies can be very beautiful, I'm more impressed with their harmonies. With Schumann on the other hand, while his harmonies may be very complex and innovative, I'm in general more impressed with his melodies. 

Bach? Well depends on how you define "melody". That's not so easy. For me, if choosing the best melodists, I would go for composers who wrote good melodies for the voice. With Bach it's different. You could choose many parts from Die Matthaüspassion or the mass in b minor, and find beautiful melodies there. But they are basically instrumental melodies. Like I wrote in the Mozart thread: Mozart writes for the voice, even when he writes for instruments. Play a Mozart aria on the piano, and it often sounds rather simplistic. But when sung it's like the biggest wonder in the world. Bach writes in a totally different way: the melodies are instrumental. That's probably why Bach would not often be named when it's about the greatest melodists. But his melodies are like beautiful little puzzles. Often, like Charles Rosen has concluded very well, they actually consist of two melodies at the same time.


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## Aramis

> Just, with Schubert and Chopin, while their melodies can be very beautiful, I'm more impressed with their harmonies.


In Chopin's music it's rather impossible to separate melody and harmony - one comes from another and if you will make list of his most remarkable melodies you will hardly find even few that would be the same without harmony among them.


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## martijn

Of course melody and harmony are always related to some extent, that's just how Western music from the common practice works. But that doesn't mean they are always equally interesting. A melody can be quite intricate, while the harmony may just switch between tonic and dominant. On the other hand, a harmonic progression may be very intricate, while there's hardly any melodic movement in it.


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## Oskaar

I love the rondo in B minor!


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## peeyaj

3 days and it would bo Schubert's birthday..


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## peeyaj

1 day and it will be his birthday!! Happy birthday, Franz!!


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## peeyaj

Happy Birthday!!!  Today is your 184th birthay.. )


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde

I can believe I missed it yesterday! I'm so sorry Franzl.


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde

But yer stuff's great!!!


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde

Actually I can't believe Schubert's 184th got more attention here than Philip Glass' 75th!


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## moody

Ephemerid said:


> Here's a great performance of the Erlking HERE and a translation of Goethe's text is on that page too. Take a listen!
> 
> And a bit of background on the story HERE (here's an excerpt):
> 
> What I did not know before though was that Schubert was 18 when he wrote this!


This lied started me off when I was nine, only one point Erlkoenig means king of the alders.


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## moody

martijn said:


> Well, jalex, I don't have the mathematical evidence that it is overrated, if that's what you mean. In my opinion, the 9th is overlong, pretentious, rather poorly orchestrated (compared to the orchestration of Beethoven himself, not to mention compared to the orchestration of, let's say, Mozart), and the last movement is a hysterical mess.


That's a bit harsh!


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## moody

Artemis said:


> I'm not sure if you mean this seriously or whether it's more of a tongue-in-cheek comment
> 
> If it's a serious comment I would be completely astonished if you still hold this view after a few more years of listening to classical music. Whereas the appeal of Beethoven might loom large now - and I'm not doubting that his music often does appeal to noobs because of its romantic flavours, exciting sounds and strong dynamism etc - it is quite usual to find that one's interest in this style of music sooner or later gives way to other styles/composers, if not completely at least partially.
> 
> In related threads, several people on this forum have said they started out with Beethoven but then moved onto developing a liking for other composers. I've met people on some forums who went so far in this direction that they finished up hating Beethoven. Even if you don't go as far as that, I'm pretty sure that one day you will that Beethoven by no means had a monopoly of creative genius in the field of classical music. Other composers, both before and after Beethoven, have made some equally brilliant contributions to the art. The trick at an early age is not to become mesmerised by any one composer, but to be more open-minded.


I don.t accept your remarks in any way at all , when do you think I might grow out of him--I mean I'm only 74. by the way I like any number of other composers. You must make the effort not to sound so condescending,it jars.


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## Muddy

Artemis, Beethoven is almost universally considered one of the top three composers or all time for a reason, and that reason is not because his music is noob friendly. To be grouped with Bach and Mozart is no small thing and the late quartets and piano sonatas are hardly noob music! I agree that musical tastes evolve over time, but it is just as likely that they can evolve towards Beethoven as away from him. That being said, this is a Schubert thread, and my esteem for that genius's music grows and grows. I am currently hooked on his string quintet and the great last piano sonata.


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## Eviticus

For those British fans of Schubert... 9 days of Schubert on Radio 3

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-16990281


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## fpschubert

Franz Schubert is my hero. To honor him, i made the website http://www.franzpeterschubert.com

I hope Schubert lovers like it.

Cheers


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde

fpschubert said:


> Franz Schubert is my hero. To honor him, i made the website http://www.franzpeterschubert.com
> 
> I hope Schubert lovers like it.
> 
> Cheers


Wow! I just visited your website and I love it! Very informative.


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## ncmtman

Schubert is my second-favorite composer of all-time, behind Mozart. lately, I have been listening to a lot of Schubert, though, as I have just started up an all-Schubert internet radio station called "Franz Schubert Radio". The station website is http://www.franzschubertradio.com. Feel free to give it a listen. I am open to suggestions, or even requests. I am endeavoring to play as many songs as I can. Currently, there are about 70 songs in the playlists, which includes most of the more well-known ones. The station broadcasts 24 / 7.


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## Moira

fpschubert said:


> Franz Schubert is my hero. To honor him, i made the website http://www.franzpeterschubert.com


Your website on Schubert is truly wonderful. Thank you for doing this, and for sharing it.


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## Pizzicato

I've only started listening to him recently. I love his music. I'm listening to his E Minor Overture right now.


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## peeyaj

Schubert is the man!!


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## Vaneyes

fpschubert said:


> Franz Schubert is my hero. To honor him, i made the website http://www.franzpeterschubert.com
> 
> I hope Schubert lovers like it.
> 
> Cheers


Your site's nicely constructed and easy to navigate. Congrats, and best of luck with hits.


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## Muddy

peeyaj said:


> Schubert is the man!!


Peeya, you love Schubert. Tonight I downloaded Die schone Mullerin, and a collection of Renee Fleming Schubert Lieder. I already own Winterreise. That is the extent of my Schubert lieder. Listening to Renee Fleming,I just teared up and I need more! What do I need to build my lieder collection? The more I listen to Schubert, the more I feel his early death was the greatest loss to music,ever. He wasn't Mozart. He was Schubert! Forgive me, I have had a few fine ales tonight. And I devote this evening to Schubert!


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## pjang23

Muddy said:


> Peeya, you love Schubert. Tonight I downloaded Die schone Mullerin, and a collection of Renee Fleming Schubert Lieder. I already own Winterreise. That is the extent of my Schubert lieder. Listening to Renee Fleming,I just teared up and I need more! What do I need to build my lieder collection? The more I listen to Schubert, the more I feel his early death was the greatest loss to music,ever. He wasn't Mozart. He was Schubert! Forgive me, I have had a few fine ales tonight. And I devote this evening to Schubert!


Some famous examples to get you started:
An die Musik -My personal favorite!
Nacht und Träume -As well as this one
Der Erlkönig
Gretchen am Spinnrade
Der Tod und das Mädchen -Source material for 2nd movement of String Quartet No.14
Der Wanderer -Source material for 2nd movement of Wanderer Fantasy
Die Forelle -Source material for 4th movement of Trout Quintet

Also check out the last song cycle Schwanengesang, which contains the famous Ständchen.


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## peeyaj

@Muddy

Topaz, one of the Schubertians here in TC posted a small selection of his favorite Schubert' Lieder here: http://www.talkclassical.com/1211-franz-schubert-composer-week.html

Here are they: 

1. Small Selection of Lieder:
Nahe Des Geliebten (D 162)
Erlkonig (D 328)
Litanei Auf Das Fest Allerseelan (D 343)
Lied eines Schiffers An Die Dioskuren (D 360)
An Die Musik (D 547)
Im Abendrot (D 799)
Nacht und Traume (D 827)
Die Junge Nonne (D 828)
Ellens Gesang III (Ave Maria) (D 839)
Im Fruhling (D 882)
Standchen (D 889)
An Silvia (D 891)
Das Lied Im Grunen (D 917)
Leise flehen meine (D 957/4)
Der hirt auf dem felsen (D 965

Special mention to his "Auf Dem Strom" for voice, piano and horn. It is gorgeousness itself.

One of my Schubert favorite is *Auf Dem Wasser Zu Singen * which was featured in the movie, Battle Royale. It is a great song.






@Pjang23

Thanks..  ^_^


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## Muddy

Thanks for the recomendations! Loving Schubert more and more!


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## Hausmusik

Mirror Image said:


> I'm not a big fan of either composer, because, in my opinion, I don't hear anything in their music that is as distinctive as say a Bruckner or Sibelius symphony, but without Beethoven's innovative way of phrasing, we would be lost. The same could be said about Schubert too. Without him...we wouldn't have had the great Beethoven.


Indeed: Schubert was a defining influence on Beethoven! Or, exactly the other way around! Or something like that.


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## peeyaj

Here's Schubert radio.. I listen to it everyday, 



> http://www.franzschubertradio.com/index.php


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## DrHieronymusFaust

peeyaj said:


> Here's Schubert radio.. I listen to it everyday,


Bookmarked.


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## Romantic Geek

Hausmusik said:


> Indeed: Schubert was a defining influence on Beethoven! Or, exactly the other way around! Or something like that.


Except...no.


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## lilmoz

His best pieces for me,it's the sonatas!


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## Muddy

Becoming obsessed with Schubert's Lieder! It really helps to have an English translation handy (if needed) The interplay between the singer and the piano is priceless. I never considered lieder that important before. Thought it was a trifle. No more.


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## mtmailey

Not to long ago i downloaded his symphony 7 which he did not complete and ordered his symphony 10 which was incomplete as well they both sounded great!!


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## BurningDesire

There's an awesome orchestration of Schubert's 6 German Dances, D. 820, which was done by Anton Webern. Its a very delicate, sensitive orchestration thats beautiful, and you really hear the personalities of both composers in it, as with Ravel's orchestration of Mussorgsky's Pictures at an Exhibition.


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## campy

I just acquired Karl Böhm's set of the symphonies with the Berliner Philharmoniker. So far I've only listened to the first two; Haven't found anything to complain about.


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## peeyaj

Listening to Schubert's Symphony no. 3.. what a lovely piece of work


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## ncmtman

Sorry, but I don't know where to post this question.... (I'll try here...)

Does anyone know of any recordings of Schubert's song "Brüder, schrecklich brennt die Träne", D.535. I cannot seem to find it anywhere. I'm looking for it either on CD, or as a MP3 file. Anyone know?


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## peeyaj

Tomorrow, November 19, is the 184th Death Anniversary of Franz Schubert. Your mark to the world will be forever, Franz.. )


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## KenOC

Only ten minutes left in the 19th here, but enough time to note that Franz Schubert died this day in 1828. A tragedy. R.I.P.


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## HarpsichordConcerto

One of the greatest of all composers, whose music will always be remembered.

Speaking of which, I am about to order a new recording of his complete symphonies, as performed by Les Musiciens du Louvre under Minkowski, just released. Should be quite an experience under Minkowski. I have high expectations of this new recording.


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## Kieran

Yeah, yesterday was Schubert's anniversary. I have a lot of Schubert music but I haven't spent so much deep time with it, which is my loss. I love his final piano sonata, his quintet, Wintereisse and Swansong. But really, the Unfinished and 9th symphs show that there were symphonies composed alongside Beethoven which were just as good, but different.

Death and the Maiden! Who couldn't love that fillum...  And Schubert's quartet isn't too bad either. He lived parallel with the Great Mogul, but was still able to function. It's such a shame for Schubert he wasn't appreciated in his day, but his day was too short, anyhow...


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## peeyaj

As any of you knew, I love and adore Schubert the most of all composers. I held his music in highest esteem, and I respect every aspect of the life he lead. Franz had been my companion on time that I'm sad, happy, distressed and every emotion that I felt. His music lifts my soul, and elevates my well -being. I cried for him. I smiled at his charming music. I sympathize with him. I felt a connection that I never felt before with other composers.

Every 19th of November, I listen to my favorite Schubert works:

1. String Quintet in C
2. Piano Sonata no. 21
3. Winterreise
4. String Quartet no. 15
5. Unfinished and Great C Major Symphonies
6. Selection of his Lieder

Franz, your mark to the world will never be erased. Thank you for the musical gifts that you gave upon us. I love you, my dear friend.

*"Here music has buried a treasure, but even fairer hopes.*

written on his tombstone


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## GGluek

John Harbison's piece "November 19, 1828" is a fascinating take on Schubert's death that has a kind of surreal quality that I find fun to listen to and absolutely original.


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## Sonata

I like Schubert a lot, but I don't feel like I'm quite as familliar with him as I should be. I need to spend some more time listening to his music. The Trout Quintet is one of my favorite pieces of chamber music.


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## Wandering

First time I'd heard The Trout Quintet was watching this Brit-com:


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## Vaneyes

Clovis said:


> First time I'd heard The Trout Quintet was watching this Brit-com (Waiting For God):


'Twas also featured on Faulty Towers.

Sidenote: This thread will mean more work for science. Likely merging it with Composer Guestbooks: Schubert.


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## jurianbai

It's high time for _TRaaaaaaang, trang-trang-trang-trang_.....






(hey,... that's another usefulness of electronic)


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## peeyaj

Happy Birthday, my dear Franz!!!


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## hreichgott

Dear Mr. Schubert,
Thanks for writing the Wanderer Fantasy. That was really great. I never get tired of it.
Now where is that Repeat button.
cheers, hreichgott


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## Novelette

hreichgott said:


> Dear Mr. Schubert,
> Thanks for writing the Wanderer Fantasy. That was really great. I never get tired of it.
> Now where is that Repeat button.
> cheers, hreichgott


I wish that I could like this post twice, Heather.  Wholeheartedly agreed!


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## peeyaj

hreichgott said:


> Dear Mr. Schubert,
> Thanks for writing the Wanderer Fantasy. That was really great. I never get tired of it.
> Now where is that Repeat button.
> cheers, hreichgott


 Thanks for your patronage..

Little Mushroom


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## WavesOfParadox

I recently discovered Schubert. He is now by far my favorite classical era composer.


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## peeyaj

WavesOfParadox said:


> I recently discovered Schubert. He is now by far my favorite classical era composer.


That's Great!! Welcome to the club


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## elgar's ghost

If there's anyone here who loves his piano sonatas, impromptus etc but has never delved into his piano works for four hands I strongly urge you to do so - the best of them are often on an equal footing to his work for solo piano and even the slighter marches and dances are worth investigating. Here are the more substantial ones:

Grand Duo sonata - D812
Divertissement a la Hongroise - D818
Divertissement a la Francaise - D823
Grande Marche Funebre - D859
Grande Marche Heroique - D885
Fantasia in f-minor - D940
Allegro in a-minor 'Lebenssturme' - D947
Rondo in A - D951


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## peeyaj

We must all worship Schubert.. :bows my head:


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## Novelette

Although you have all surely seen me sing the praises of Schumann, Schubert also has a place in my heart.

Listening to his orchestral works, I cannot help but be struck by the unbelievable inventiveness of his instrumentation: clean, balanced, exuding an unequaled mastery of timbre. What beautiful contrasts of dynamic in the 8th symphony. The turbulent episodes are irresistibly compelling and highly dramatic. Poor Schumann could have learned from this, for where does turbulence not shine most but surrounded by calm seas, so to speak?

Schubert, a composer who, despite his acclaim, remains underappreciated in huge swaths of his oeuvre [operas and masses, especially!].


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## Muddy

I love Schubert, and I believe that he is very much appreciated! He is not Bach. He is not Mozart. He is not Beethoven. But who is, save those three? Sometimes I get the feeling that hardcore Schubert fans will always believe that their hero is unappreciated until he somehow rises to the top. But he won't and never will.


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## DavidA

Muddy said:


> I love Schubert, and I believe that he is very much appreciated! He is not Bach. He is not Mozart. He is not Beethoven. But who is, save those three? Sometimes I get the feeling that hardcore Schubert fans will always believe that their hero is unappreciated until he somehow rises to the top. But he won't and never will.


Well, Schubert is right up at the top as far as I'm concerned. His genius was astonishing when you consider he died just after he really reached maturity as a composer. His late sonatas, quartets and songs are astonishing. Imagine what we might have if he had only lived as long as Mozart.


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## violadude

Lately, I've been working on a new listening project of mine and that is to go back and listen to all the standards of the repertoire that I have previously neglected due to my interest in more obscure composers and contemporary repertoire. So as part of that project I recently finished listening to all of Schubert's symphonies. Here are my quick thoughts:

First of all, I didn't listen to the 7th symphony because I heard there is almost nothing of it that is actually by Schubert, which sort of bothers me. Second of all, on a whole, I feel as though the symphony wasn't really Schubert's strength until the 5th symphony. All the symphonies before that are good, but not really above average for that time period I feel other than for the qualities that Schubert was already good at across the board (lyricism and quick natural sounding key changes for example). I could very possibly be missing something, but that is my analysis for now. Now onto the individual symphonies.

Symphony 1: This one was probably my least favorite. I enjoyed it well enough. I thought there were some balance issues in the first movement especially. I didn't really like that the intro came back as part of the recap. I think there is probably a way to do that successfully but this wasn't it, it ended up sort of breaking the flow of the music in my opinion. I also liked the 3rd movement quite a bit. It was fun. I actually don't really remember a whole lot else about this one to be honest but I remember thinking it was alright. 

Symphony 2: Improvement from #1. This one I felt has a lot of life in it. Especially in the first movement. That movement is very fun and has a lot of great effortless changes, in instrumentation, mood, key. The Minuet was really good in this one too. I either really like minuets or Schubert was really good at them, or both. I also love the way the finale starts with a V7 chord that quickly resolves to the home key. That's a fun stroke of creativity. Even though it's just a V7 chord, the way it is played so suddenly right at the beginning of a fast movement makes it sound more dissonant than it actually is at first. 

Symphony #3: Another enjoyable symphony. Some of the first movement sounds a bit banal though, especially rhythmically, but the theme I'm thinking of becomes more graceful later so maybe that was the point. There's no slow movement in this one. There is a fun allegretto as the second movement. The third movement is labeled minuet again, but the way it is so awkwardly accented (awkwardly in a good way) it is more like a landler than anything. That movement is interesting. The finale to this symphony is the funnest one yet and the highlight of this symphony to me. 

Symphony #4: By this time, I'm starting to hear Schubert get more mature as a symphonist. This one sounds more full to me than the previous three, but not quite as mature as the 5th yet. I'm guessing this piece got the nickname "tragic" from the introduction. Other than the intro there is nothing particularly tragic sounding about this symphony, no more than your average minor key classical symphony at least. Besides the ramped up maturity level in the writing, the thing that stuck out most in this one was the 3rd movement. Man was that a chromatic opening! I couldn't even tell what key I was in at first. It took me totally by surprise and I give Schubert mad props for that. This was also the first symphony in the cycle where I enjoyed the second movement a lot more than average. It was really beautiful. I really love that reaching closing theme of the exposition in the first movement too. 

Symphony #5- Well, most of what I had heard about this symphony previously was correct. Schubert has reached full maturity of symphonic writing at this point and this is, in my opinion, the first absolutely perfect classical symphony he wrote. The first movement just sounds like a breath of fresh air, especially if you're listening to the symphonies in order like I was and had just heard the murky-ish 4th symphony. I love how the symphony doesn't begin with strings. Everything is perfectly balanced, the themes are great. The orchestration is more subtle and delicate sounding than it had been in the previous symphonies, I'm not sure if the absence of the clarinet has anything to do with the delicate sound or not. The slow movement of this one might be my favorite of the whole cycle. Actually, I take that back, the slow movement of the 9th is my favorite of the whole cycle (we'll get there) but this one is a close second. The middle section with the amazing scoring for woodwinds vs. 1 violin over the backdrop of the other strings is just great. The third movement of this one actually stuck out the least to me this time compared to the other movements but it was still really good. I liked the trio of this one more than the main minuet. And then the 4th movement is of course good and has all of the previously stated qualities of the rest of the symphony.

Symphony #6: I enjoyed this one quite a bit as well. I LOVED the main theme of the first movement. It was so fun/funny with the raised 4th in the first phrase and the grace notes in the second phrase. I'm glad he scores this theme for woodwinds first, it is perfect for them. There are some parts of this first movement that actually reminds me of Tchaikovsky, I don't know if it is the orchestration, or harmony or what. The second movement is really good. I love the frantic activity of the middle section the most. As expected a fun third movement. I liked the fourth movement because it is not the frenzied and fast finale that I had come to expect from Schubert but a more calm and laid back melody which was a really nice change and really accentuated Schubert's great melodic skills.

Symphony #8: Unfortunately, this was the only symphony that I had actually heard before. If I had been listening to it for the very first time though, I would have been completely floored by how different it was from anything that had come before it. It's almost like a totally different composer. It's certainly the first Romantic symphony in the cycle. Anyway, the first movement is amazing. To me, it sounds like the gloomiest and mysterious thing that had ever been penned up to that point in time. I love the way he integrates that cello/bass introduction into the rest of the symphony. It works brilliantly and the climaxes in this movement are devastating. The other movement is really great too. I like how "momentous" it is compared to all the previous slow movements, if that makes sense. I also like how it builds to a lot of activity and then calms down. It actually has an arch to it rather than being more sectional like the previous slow movements.

Symphony #9: This was probably my favorite symphony. I didn't mind the length at all. This piece sounds very Beethovian to my ears. The slow introduction is the best and most beautiful slow intro in the cycle in my opinion. So amazingly scored, the instruments are intertwined perfectly. In fact, I think in general Schubert had come such a long way in terms of effective, above average scoring by the time this symphony had been written. Before, the scoring was just good but standard classical scoring that didn't really stick out much. Now it's infinitely more subtle, thought out and effective than it was compared to the first few symphonies. Anyway, the themes in the first movement are great, I especially like the minor key second theme. And these themes are also fleshed out in a much more complete way than they had previously been. The development is awesomely paced. The second movement is my favorite second movement of the cycle. I love the mood of it. All the things I said about the first movement probably apply to this one as well. I think I love this movement so much because it's one of those ones that has such a great blend of major/minor key touches, like it is bending the line between the two. It's pretty consistently on the verge of either one or the other, which is something Schubert does really well. The third movement is very above average in terms of quality in my opinion. Again, all the general things that apply to the other movements apply to this one as well. I especially like the part in the main Scherzo section, after the initial grumblings are introduced, and the violin theme is introduced with the grumblings as counterpoint in the woodwinds. This third movement is a lot meatier than the average third movement for sure, as a lot of times third movement are used as "breaks from the heavy duty stuff" but not this time. I suppose this is in trend with what Romantic symphonies came to be though. And then the finale is a great rollicking one which ends up sounding very victorious. Like battle horses victoriously marching in or something like that. And it manages to sound victorious without sounding cheesy or contrived, which I appreciate. I love the pure cacophony of this movement too  Not much else I can say about this movement other than what's already been said about the other movements.

So all in all, this is my ranking of the symphonies from favorite to least favorite:

9
8
5
6
4
2
3
1


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## mtmailey

SCHUBERT had a few incomplete symphonies that sound great namely the number 10 & 7 D.729 sounds great someone tried to complete the symphony 8 but it did not work.


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## MagneticGhost

DavidA said:


> Well, Schubert is right up at the top as far as I'm concerned. His genius was astonishing when you consider he died just after he really reached maturity as a composer. His late sonatas, quartets and songs are astonishing. Imagine what we might have if he had only lived as long as Mozart.


And imagine what we'd have if both of them had lived as long as Beethoven.
Fate dealt humanity a cruel hand to kill these musical geniuses off at such a young age.
But I sometimes wonder if somehow they both knew and compensated by composing a lifetimes work in less that half a lifetime.

Pointless conjecture I suppose. Could have been 100's of Schuberts who died before the age of 5. 
Just thankful that we have such a body of fine work to appreciate.


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## NightHawk

Domingo, Scotto, Milnes, Levine. 
Listened to Acts III and IV this morning. If there is a better cast, and overall performance out there, please let me know - this one always seems beyond perfect to me in every way.


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## Selby

Have been listening to D. 804, "Rosamunde" this morning. Such a lovely piece.

I have a few versions - today it was Emerson - anyone have a favorite recording?


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## Muddy

I recently purchased a nice set of Radu Lupu playing several of Schuberts sonatas and several other works. Love it! Anyone else love Lupu's Schubert?


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## Muddy

Thank you Franz Schubert for making me cry tonight. Your music sings. Why does music do this to me? It consumes me. Somewhere in music is the truth to everything, like when God picked up a box of crayons for the first time. The secrets of the universe may finally be discovered by science, but that day music will ask, "this is news?"


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## shangoyal

His music is like a piece of cloth that the composer weaved very slowly and diligently for a lifetime, never veering much from the initial plan because he insisted, "this is good, and I know it", and nobody else could see, but Schubert weaved away, and when it was complete everybody was like - "this is beautiful. when did it become beautiful?"


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## scratchgolf

I've enjoyed reading through these comments. I'm very excited to be amongst like minded individuals and I'm more excited to see so much love for Schubert. I've listened to "The Trout" every day for the last few weeks. It just gets better and better. Does anyone have a favorite version of his symphonies and piano quintets? I'm certainly in the market to own multiple versions and interpretations.


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## Vaneyes

scratchgolf said:


> I've enjoyed reading through these comments. I'm very excited to be amongst like minded individuals and I more excited to see so much love for Schubert. I've listened to* "The Trout"* every days for the last few weeks. It just gets better and better. Does anyone have a favorite version of his *symphonies and piano quintet*s? I'm certainly in the market to own multiple versions and interpretations.


VPO/Muti, Schiff/Posch/Hagen Qt. :tiphat:


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## Blake

Karl Bohm with the Berlin Philharmonic does a beautiful symphony cycle.


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## scratchgolf

Ty both. I'll check those out. My current versions are from Stockholm and The Colorado Quartet, respectively.


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## SiegendesLicht

Gentlemen, allow me to join your club of Schubert lovers. In my, for now small, collection I have more of him than of any other composer, except Wagner. The last additions were Schubert piano sonatas and after that a collection of Schubert lieder, performed by Dietrich Fischer-Dieskau und Gerald Moore - over 24 hours of pure bliss. 

Here are some of my favorite Schubert works:
1. The symphonies #8 and 9. 
2. The string quartets: "Death and the Maiden", "Rosamunde" and "Quartettsatz".
3. Piano sonatas: D459 "Fünf Klavierstücke", D958, D959 and D960.
4. Piano trios: both of them.
5. D872 "Deutsche Messe". *makes a mental note to check out his other sacred music too*.
6. And finally, innumerable lieder: "An die Musik", "Nacht und Träume", "Ganymed", "Im Frühling", "Der gute Hirt", "Du bist die Ruh", "Sehnsucht" (with words written by Schiller), "Litanei auf das Fest aller Seelen", "Der Wanderer", "Gute Nacht" from Winterreise, "Des Baches Wiegenlied". 

Schubert is incomparable when it comes to the more intimate, contemplative side of Romanticism. The slow movements of his piano sonatas have brought me to tears more than once. Such heavenly beauty... Vielen Dank, lieber Herr Schubert!


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## Antony

Mitchell said:


> Have been listening to D. 804, "Rosamunde" this morning. Such a lovely piece.
> 
> I have a few versions - today it was Emerson - anyone have a favorite recording?


Hi, 
Sorry to jump in the middle of your conversation.

Did you hear Elly Ameling sing this lieder? I absolutely love her.


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## scratchgolf

SiegendesLicht said:


> Gentlemen, allow me to join your club of Schubert lovers.


I say we get t-shirts made! I love reading about composers almost as much as I love listening to the gifts they've bestowed upon us. Schubert fascinates me. I'd love to get suggestions on any good books on his life. I think asking to hear op131 on his deathbed and requesting to be buried next to the maestro are the ultimate signs of respect. Respect that you just don't see in modern society.


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## Antony

It's too bad that Schubert isn't considered a giant in Classical Music. But does it matter? Schubert died but his masterworks still live with us...

He composed much more than Beethoven in a span of live much shorter.

Wonderful, wonderful 700 lieders. Without Schubert, who still remembers those charming poems? Schubert transformed them into songs and they become immortals. (I'm learning german with it btw).

My absolute favourite lieder is Der Hirt auf dem Felsen, D. 965, by Arlene Auger. 
But by listening and re-listening those lieders, I discover new beauties.


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## Blake

Schubert's a giant, for sure. He's your quintessential Romantic... he didn't just make the music, he lived the life. Read his story.


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## SiegendesLicht

Antony said:


> Wonderful, wonderful 700 lieders. Without Schubert, who still remembers those charming poems? Schubert transformed them into songs and they become immortals. (I'm learning german with it btw).


Viel Glück beim Deutschlernen!

I don't know about Arlene Auger, never having heard her so far, but D F-D's pronunciation on that huge lieder box set is wonderfully clear and could be used for learning the language indeed. And his singing is just so darn awesome!


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## Antony

SiegendesLicht said:


> Viel Glück beim Deutschlernen!
> 
> I don't know about Arlene Auger, never having heard her so far, but D F-D's pronunciation on that huge lieder box set is wonderfully clear and could be used for learning the language indeed. And his singing is just so darn awesome!


Herr SiegendesLicht!

Danke 

Yeah! The collection of DFD is a must-have for everyone who like lieders of Schubert. Do you know the new (re-edited) collection of Lieders by Hyperion? this one has many great voices. I am wondering if I ...go for it as I already have the DFD collection. It's awful! My friend has this new collection and he told me it's ..great!

Arlene Auger is not german but she teached in germany's music school. So I assume she speaks and sings german well enough.
Do you hear also Elisabeth Schwarzkopf? her An Sylvia is beautiful.


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## SiegendesLicht

Antony said:


> Do you hear also Elisabeth Schwarzkopf? her An Sylvia is beautiful.


No, I am still very much a newbie, and the only Schubert singers I own recordings of and have really listened to, are Fischer-Dieskau, Kurt Moll and Ian Bostridge. They are quite different, but wonderful, each in his own way.

Als, why do you call the D F-D collection awful? Or maybe you meant awesome?


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## neoshredder

Love his String Quartets and Symphonies.


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## Aramis

Alternative for DFD when it comes to linguistically transparent and natural performane of Schubert's lieder is Fritz Wunderlich. It won't be of any surprise if somebody will prefer him in musical aspects too. I certainly do. Then again, I'm not the greatest fan and connoisseur of this repertoire.


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## Winterreisender

Antony said:


> Do you know the new (re-edited) collection of Lieders by Hyperion?


I have this set and am indeed very satisfied with it. Many excellent and well-known singers appear, such as Peter Schreier and Janet Baker to name just two of my favourites. Ian Bostridge deals with die Schöne Müllerin most excellently as well. The songs are presented in chronological order, and that means that the singer changes from one song to the next. It therefore depends on whether you like this variety or whether you prefer remaining in the company of a single vocalist.

A slightly cheaper alternative would be the complete Naxos set: http://www.amazon.co.uk/Schubert-Co...06662&sr=8-1&keywords=complete+schubert+naxos . The performers are not so well known, but the songs are divided according to theme/category and vocalist, which makes for a slightly more listenable running order, in my opinion.


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## Antony

SiegendesLicht said:


> Als, why do you call the D F-D collection awful? Or maybe you meant awesome?


Well, it's awful because ...if I did not have the DFD collection, I would buy this new one without thinking a second. 
Now, what am I going to do? Buy the whole new collection (40 CDs) while I already have one at home ? 
The one at home is really great already with DFD. However, the new one is really tempting with: Janet Baker, Lucia Popp, Christine Schafer, Peter Schreier, Ian Bostridge, Elly Ameling, Margaret Price ...to name a few.

You understand the temptation of such great singers in one collection, herr SiegendesLicht!
That's why I say - It's awful -


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## Cadenza

Having approached the genre in my middle years, and from a perspective of one who digested the big chunks first, it seems to me Schubert *is* a giant. I didn't know much more than the biggest forces when I arrived, and I think I learned Schubert was one of them.

That said, the chamber works of the period just before his death is astoundingly beautiful and most poignant.


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## KenOC

Cadenza said:


> Having approached the genre in my middle years, and from a perspective of one who digested the big chunks first, it seems to me Schubert *is* a giant.


Schubert was most certainly a giant. His huge stature is sometimes forgotten because his friends called him "Schwammerl," meaning "little mushroom." Of course, they were being ironic!

Seriously, he seems to have been about 5' 1" tall.


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## DaDirkNL

I have been obsessed with Schubert for four months or so. All those masterpieces, Winterreise, Symphony 8 and 9, the String Quintet, the Trout Quintet, Schwanengesang, Die schöne Müllerin, etc. Will it ever end?


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## Blake

Yes, I'm sure everything ends. So, enjoy this beautiful, momentary experience... Schubert is great. Started getting into his piano sonatas recently.


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## TurnaboutVox

Schubert's late symphonies and his lieder taken as read as masterworks, his mature chamber music is also amongst the best ever written, and his mature piano works are sans pareil.

Three or four years ago I began to explore his early piano works, which are rather fragmentary. Much investigatory work to piece together e.g. early sonatas has been done by, amongst others, the pianist Martino Tirimo and I think the results are really rewarding.

I'm begnning to listen to Schubert's early chamber works now too. It all repays my attention.


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## hreichgott

DaDirkNL said:


> I have been obsessed with Schubert for four months or so. All those masterpieces, Winterreise, Symphony 8 and 9, the String Quintet, the Trout Quintet, Schwanengesang, Die schöne Müllerin, etc. Will it ever end?


Nope. Schubert wrote a LOT of lieder.


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## SimonNZ

Looking through the latest Yale University Press catalogue at work I see that after much anticipation Graham Johnson's reworking and expanding of his already extensive Schubert Lieder notes into a 3,000 page (!!) multi-volume set is finally on the way, due April:


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## MagneticGhost

SimonNZ said:


> Looking through the latest Yale University Press catalogue at work I see that after much anticipation Graham Johnson's reworking and expanding of his already extensive Schubert Lieder notes into a 3,000 page (!!) multi-volume set is finally on the way, due April:


That looks like a tasty accompaniment to my complete lieder boxset. But at a preorder price of £174 on Amazon, I think it will remain off the menu for the foreseeable.


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## Headphone Hermit

It is clearly less than Johnson's three volume set, but it costs an awful lot less too (and I find it gives me sufficient information for my purposes)


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## hreichgott

And now something free: a Schubert biography in two volumes
http://books.google.com/books?id=u0...a=X&ei=5qj9UuOFDuSMyQGs2oDACA&ved=0CDkQ6AEwAg
http://books.google.com/books?id=Jd...a=X&ei=5qj9UuOFDuSMyQGs2oDACA&ved=0CDEQ6AEwAQ

I'm sure some of the information is old, but there is lots of detail and excerpts from letters and so on. A fun read for Schubert fans.


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## scratchgolf

I've been on a Schubert Symphony binge for the past week or so. I've recently added a Bohm cycle to my collection and find his 9th to be breathtaking. In addition, I just purchased the Scottish Chamber Orchestra w/Charles Mackerras, Completed 7th, 8th, and 10th Symphonies. I've read mixed reviews but what's the worst that can happen? I'm quite excited, as the CD should arrive this week. Does anyone have positive or negative input on these realized versions?


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## schuberkovich

Does anyone else know Schubert's sonata in C D840 "Reliquie"? Only the 1st and 2nd movements are fully completed. I am in love with the first movement:




There is something very special about it.


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## DavidA

schuberkovich said:


> Does anyone else know Schubert's sonata in C D840 "Reliquie"? Only the 1st and 2nd movements are fully completed. I am in love with the first movement:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There is something very special about it.


Yes. Richter is mesmeric but the tempo is so slow!


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## Blancrocher

schuberkovich said:


> Does anyone else know Schubert's sonata in C D840 "Reliquie"? Only the 1st and 2nd movements are fully completed. I am in love with the first movement


You're in the best of company: D.F. Tovey thought that one of two "perfect" first movements in all of Schubert (along with the first movement of Symphony 8).

Such a passionate, amazing work--glad you're enjoying it.


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## TurnaboutVox

schuberkovich said:


> Does anyone else know Schubert's sonata in C D840 "Reliquie"? Only the 1st and 2nd movements are fully completed. I am in love with the first movement:
> 
> There is something very special about it.


Yes I agree, there is; I have the Kempff version you have posted above, and Brendel's, but also the interesting version by Gottlieb Wallisch who plays the usual Moderato and Andante movements but also the incomplete Menuetto: Allegretto and finale Rondo: Allegro.

Then there is Martino Tirimo's completion of the D. 840 sonata - actually his Schubert piano sonata set on EMI features his own completions of all but two of the incomplete and fragmented sonatas.

I had the pleasure of hearing him play this a few years ago.


----------



## Vaneyes

Schubert's 9th Symphony is graced by Service this week. My recommended recordings with power--Dresden/Tate (EMI), VPO/Muti (EMI, Brilliant Classics).:tiphat:

http://www.theguardian.com/music/to...ny-guide-schubert-ninth-the-great-tom-service


----------



## SimonNZ

A heads-up for anyone who may be interested:

Ian Bostridge has a book on the way devoted to analysing Schubert's Winterreise, from the point of view of both a scholar and as a performer:


----------



## fjf

scratchgolf said:


> I've been on a Schubert Symphony binge for the past week or so. I've recently added a Bohm cycle to my collection and find his 9th to be breathtaking. In addition, I just purchased the Scottish Chamber Orchestra w/Charles Mackerras, Completed 7th, 8th, and 10th Symphonies. I've read mixed reviews but what's the worst that can happen? I'm quite excited, as the CD should arrive this week. Does anyone have positive or negative input on these realized versions?


Böhm's 9th is magnificent!.


----------



## scratchgolf

fjf said:


> Böhm's 9th is magnificent!.


I only wish he took the repeats. Still, if I had only one more time to listen to the ninth, it would be Bohm's.


----------



## DiesIraeCX

scratchgolf said:


> I only wish he took the repeats. Still, if I had only one more time to listen to the ninth, it would be Bohm's.


May I ask which one? I'm seeing one with the Staatskapelle Dresden and another with the Berliner Philharmoniker.

I'd like to give it a listen.


----------



## scratchgolf

DiesIraeVIX said:


> May I ask which one? I'm seeing one with the Staatskapelle Dresden and another with the Berliner Philharmoniker.
> 
> I'd like to give it a listen.


His performance with Berlin is the highly regarded one, and much better of the two, in my opinion. The Dresden lacks in sound quality. 








^I swear by this recording, and packaged with the 8th, it's nearly perfect. From 4:15 to 4:30 seals the deal for me. Also, if you buy Bohm's Beethoven 6 (also definitive in my book) you get a Bohm Schubert 5 (also definitive in my book). My book likes Bohm.


----------



## DiesIraeCX

scratchgolf said:


> His performance with Berlin is the highly regarded one, and much better of the two, in my opinion. The Dresden lacks in sound quality.
> View attachment 56268
> 
> 
> ^I swear by this recording, and packaged with the 8th, it's nearly perfect. From 4:15 to 4:30 seals the deal for me. Also, if you buy Bohm's Beethoven 6 (also definitive in my book) you get a Bohm Schubert 5 (also definitive in my book). My book likes Bohm.


Thanks man, I'll keep that in mind, it's about time for another Schubert 9th recording. I own two, one by Josef Krips/London Symphony and Furtwangler/Berliner (I'm so-so on the Furtwangler recording). I adore the Krips recording but it's time for a change. 

The inclusion of the 8th "Unfinished" only sweetens the deal, even though I already have 3 recordings. lol 
- Casals/Marlboro Festival Orchestra (my favorite so far)
- Bernstein/NYPO 
- Maazel/Vienna Philharmonic

With regards to Beethoven's 6th. There's only two names that come up when discussing "definitive" versions of Beethoven's 6th, Bohm and Walter. I own the Walter, it's fantastic, so I recommend you give Walter's 6th a chance if you haven't already.


----------



## scratchgolf

May I also recommend Muti/Vienna for Schubert 9? It's my favorite with the repeats. Minkowski also does an interesting take with period instruments. Harnoncourt's S9 leaves me flat but his 8 is spot on.


----------



## Itullian

scratchgolf said:


> May I also recommend Muti/Vienna for Schubert 9? It's my favorite with the repeats. Minkowski also does an interesting take with period instruments. Harnoncourt's S9 leaves me flat but his 8 is spot on.


The way Muti slows down at the coda is awesome.


----------



## millionrainbows

I was reading some bio on him, and he had a hard time. It was a struggle getting recognition, and he worked at it. There was only a brief period in Vienna when he came anywhere close to solid success, then he got sick, and died...of syphilis. Damn, that guy suffered!


----------



## trazom

millionrainbows said:


> I was reading some bio on him, and he had a hard time. It was a struggle getting recognition, and he worked at it. There was only a brief period in Vienna when he came anywhere close to solid success, then he got sick, and died...of syphilis. Damn, that guy suffered!


And most of his pieces that actually were well known during his life were his lieder and piano duets/piano pieces for four hands.


----------



## BartokPizz

Blancrocher said:


> You're in the best of company: D.F. Tovey thought that [the first movement of the Reliquie sonata was] one of two "perfect" first movements in all of Schubert (along with the first movement of Symphony 8).
> 
> Such a passionate, amazing work--glad you're enjoying it.


Can somebody clue me in here? Schubert is possibly my favorite composer, and I love the last three sonatas more than just about any other works for piano. But the Reliquie has never rated very high for me. The slow movement has some things going for it I suppose, but the first movement always strikes me as particularly repetitive, harmonically and thematically uninteresting, and pointless. I struggle to hear anything here justifying the adjective "perfect." What am I missing?

Brendel is also a champion of this sonata, to judge from how often he has released recordings of it.


----------



## Mandryka

BartokPizz said:


> Can somebody clue me in here? Schubert is possibly my favorite composer, and I love the last three sonatas more than just about any other works for piano. But the Reliquie has never rated very high for me. The slow movement has some things going for it I suppose, but the first movement always strikes me as particularly repetitive, harmonically and thematically uninteresting, and pointless. I struggle to hear anything here justifying the adjective "perfect." What am I missing?
> 
> Brendel is also a champion of this sonata, to judge from how often he has released recordings of it.


I think repetition is a big big thing in Schubert, think of the 9th symphony. Whether it's a failing or not is unclear to me -- but it certainly was a major part of his style.

When you hear some music repeated, you have a memory of the first time. It's almost like you see a doppelgänger of the music, transformed maybe by context or by some slight variation. Maybe what Schubert was doing in his music was exploring music and memory. Maybe part of what he was doing was exploring metaphysical ideas about change over time, recognition and essential unity. There may be theological implications too -- it's God who keeps us whole despite the changes.

Da steht auch ein Mensch und starrt in die Höhe,
Und ringt die Hände, vor Schmerzensgewalt;
Mir graut es, wenn ich sein Antlitz sehe -
Der Mond zeigt mir meine eigne Gestalt.

Du Doppelgänger! du bleicher Geselle!
Was äffst du nach mein Liebesleid,
Das mich gequält auf dieser Stelle,
So manche Nacht, in alter Zeit?

One very powerful example of this is at the end of the second piano trio, when the music of the first movement returns.


----------



## BartokPizz

Mandryka,

In the Ninth Symphony as well as the String quintet and 887 Quartet and many other works, Schubert uses repetition in the way you describe, to create and sustain musical interest not through closely argued thematic development but through transformed contexts, instrumentation, tonalities. One has to be open to this characteristic of his music to be the Schubert fanatic I am.

In the Reliquie, however, I do not hear repetition used in a musically interesting manner. As I stated I find it harmonically and thematically empty, monotonous in texture, not just repetitive. So I am really intrigued to learn of the reason for others' enthusiasm for this specific work (not Schubert in general).


----------



## Mandryka

BartokPizz said:


> Mandryka,
> 
> In the Ninth Symphony as well as the String quintet and 887 Quartet and many other works, Schubert uses repetition in the way you describe, to create and sustain musical interest not through closely argued thematic development but through transformed contexts, instrumentation, tonalities. One has to be open to this characteristic of his music to be the Schubert fanatic I am.
> 
> In the Reliquie, however, I do not hear repetition used in a musically interesting manner. As I stated I find it harmonically and thematically empty, monotonous in texture, not just repetitive. So I am really intrigued to learn of the reason for others' enthusiasm for this specific work (not Schubert in general).


You may be right that there are problems in the music. I feel much the same about the variations in D850. For what it's worth Sviatislav Richter seems to me to bring enough variety of phrasing and touch to make both interesting. In 1961 for 840 and in Prague for 850.

I don't like Richter's live recording from the 1970s of 840 as much.

Kempff was also good if I remember right -- I think there's a mono recording.

I've heard very few performances of 840 in fact. Schnabel and Erdmann didn't play it as far as I know. Not Gilels nor Sofronitsky nor Yudina nor Sokolov. Even the better younger Schubert pianists, like Damerini and Lonquuich, have ignored it I think. Brendel, as you say, seemed to have been interested in it. Richter changed his conception of it so much between the two recordings it may be quite interesting to carefully compare them, see what exactly was going on.


----------



## BartokPizz

Mandryka, thank you for recommending the Richter recordings. I will give them a listen. I can only recall hearing Brendel and Jando in in this music. Perhaps an inspired performance can make the difference.


----------



## BartokPizz

scratchgolf said:


> His performance with Berlin is the highly regarded one, and much better of the two, in my opinion. The Dresden lacks in sound quality.
> 
> ^I swear by this recording, and packaged with the 8th, it's nearly perfect. From 4:15 to 4:30 seals the deal for me. Also, if you buy Bohm's Beethoven 6 (also definitive in my book) you get a Bohm Schubert 5 (also definitive in my book). My book likes Bohm.


I bought this complete cycle when it was on sale a couple of years ago but don't often play it, so I put on the Ninth at your suggestion. You are right: this is a wonderful performance! If I have any reservation, it is that the first movement starts off a little too subdued. I know Bohm does this deliberately, so as to be able to gain speed and excitement a few minutes in. I just want more grandeur from the opening horn melody. The final movement is outstanding: unflagging energy and drive.


----------



## aajj

My favorite recording of the 9th Symphony is Klemperer/Philharmonia Orchestra on EMI.


----------



## hpowders

My favorite recording of the Schubert Ninth always has and continues to be with Sir Georg Solti leading the Vienna Philharmonic.


----------



## scratchgolf

BartokPizz said:


> I bought this complete cycle when it was on sale a couple of years ago but don't often play it, so I put on the Ninth at your suggestion. You are right: this is a wonderful performance! If I have any reservation, it is that the first movement starts off a little too subdued. I know Bohm does this deliberately, so as to be able to gain speed and excitement a few minutes in. I just want more grandeur from the opening horn melody. The final movement is outstanding: unflagging energy and drive.


I'm glad you enjoyed it. Reading this made me want to listen myself, so here we go.


----------



## HaydnBearstheClock

I have Barenboim's reading of Schubert's 9th. While it's melodically very good, the symphony hasn't 'grabbed' me that much, I actually think some of his earlier ones (for eg. no. 3 & 4) to be more dynamic than the 9th. Maybe it's Barenboim's reading? Does anyone own the Sir Colin Davis reading? How is it?


----------



## hpowders

hpowders said:


> My favorite recording of the Schubert Ninth always has and continues to be with Sir Georg Solti leading the Vienna Philharmonic.


I listen to this perhaps three times a year. Schubert is not in my top 10.


----------



## scratchgolf

HaydnBearstheClock said:


> I have Barenboim's reading of Schubert's 9th. While it's melodically very good, the symphony hasn't 'grabbed' me that much, I actually think some of his earlier ones (for eg. no. 3 & 4) to be more dynamic than the 9th. Maybe it's Barenboim's reading? Does anyone own the Sir Colin Davis reading? How is it?


I also enjoy Barenboim's versions of Schubert and Beethoven but don't love any. He's sort of a Bohm-lite in my opinion. I've never heard the Davis and couldn't find it on Youtube just now. I did find it on Amazon but the sound clips are short and I'm hardly in the market for another version, at this time. I'd be interested to hear your take if you get your hands on it.


----------



## Blancrocher

An interesting and occasionally ingenious essay by Ian Bostridge about the end of Winterreise:

http://www.theguardian.com/books/2015/jan/03/ian-bostridge-wanderer-schuberts-winterreise

Bostridge has also published a 500-page book about the song cycle that I intend to read before too long: http://www.amazon.com/Schuberts-Winter-Journey-Anatomy-Obsession/dp/030796163X


----------



## Mandryka

Blancrocher said:


> An interesting and occasionally ingenious essay by Ian Bostridge about the end of Winterreise:
> 
> http://www.theguardian.com/books/2015/jan/03/ian-bostridge-wanderer-schuberts-winterreise
> 
> Bostridge has also published a 500-page book about the song cycle that I intend to read before too long: http://www.amazon.com/Schuberts-Winter-Journey-Anatomy-Obsession/dp/030796163X


Thanks, it's rare to see such an imagnative response to a piece of music. I shall certainly read the book.


----------



## Avey

If anything approaches his *Quintet in C*, then, well, *the Octet* would be that thing.

Agreed?


----------



## mtmailey

Avey said:


> If anything approaches his *Quintet in C*, then, well, *the Octet* would be that thing.
> 
> Agreed?


I think his quintet in c is no match for the octet i like the octet way less you know.


----------



## Ravndal

Happy birthday Schubert


----------



## HaydnBearstheClock

Ravndal said:


> Happy birthday Schubert


Excellent playing, thanks for sharing - and Happy Birthday to the great Schubert! May his music live eternally!


----------



## aajj

Schubert's birthday and he gets better with each passing year.


----------



## GioCar

These days I have been listening to the piano sonatas from these new recordings by Daniel Barenboim










and I am pleasantly surprised for what I've heard so far. 
It's growing little by little inside me.
Maybe this CD set could be one of the big surprises of 2015?


----------



## cristobal

Hello,

I am new here =)

Symphony No. 9 in C, D. 944 'Great' is one of my favorite, could some one point me to "similar" works?


----------



## elgar's ghost

cristobal said:


> Hello,
> 
> I am new here =)
> 
> Symphony No. 9 in C, D. 944 'Great' is one of my favorite, could some one point me to "similar" works?


Welcome to the madhouse. For a symphony that is from the same timeframe and a not too-dissimilar soundworld you might want to try the 3rd symphony of Louis Spohr, quite a dramatic work in places despite being only about half the length of Schubert's more 'widescreen' 9th.


----------



## Lt.Belle

My first conscience introduction with Schubert... Die Forelle
This is so beautifull i'm feeling the water and the fishes arround normally im terrified of them.
Totally in love gonna study this one so ill can sing it love lieder!


----------



## Albert7

Welcome Schubert to the world of Lord Lance. He has dubbed you now as Schubeart.


----------



## Blancrocher

A glowing review by Ian Bostridge of Graham Johnson's new 3-volume (3,000 page) reference work about Schubert's songs:

http://www.nybooks.com/articles/archives/2015/apr/02/magic-schuberts-songs/


----------



## MagneticGhost

I would love that set of books but too steep in price at £200.
I'd be happier with £100


----------



## almc

If you consider the effort and the volume of this, the price seems logical ... however, I would prefer to buy the 40 cds Hyperion box set, where Johnson has the pianist role ... there is a 400 pages booklet included, though it is just the lyrics translations, along with a basic life calendar of the composer ... the price is 150 pounds ...
http://www.hyperion-records.co.uk/dc.asp?dc=D_CDS44201/40


----------



## rob mchenry

Schubert great symphony has been my drug of choice for over 30 years. Was shocked to discover it was almost lost. Thanks Felix and Robert!


----------



## DavidA

rob mchenry said:


> Schubert great symphony has been my drug of choice for over 30 years. Was shocked to discover it was almost lost. Thanks Felix and Robert!


I believe we also owe Felix a certain St Matthew Passion.


----------



## KenOC

Felix also resurrected the T&F in D Minor as well as Beethoven's Violin Concerto and 4th Piano Concerto. All had been forgotten.


----------



## DavidA

KenOC said:


> Felix also resurrected the T&F in D Minor as well as Beethoven's Violin Concerto and 4th Piano Concerto. All had been forgotten.


Was the violin concerto in collaboration with Joachim?


----------



## KenOC

DavidA said:


> Was the violin concerto in collaboration with Joachim?


Yes it was. Joachim was then twelve years old. The revival was in 1844, 38 years after the concerto's completion.


----------



## Guest

Blancrocher said:


> A glowing review by Ian Bostridge of Graham Johnson's new 3-volume (3,000 page) reference work about Schubert's songs:
> http://www.nybooks.com/articles/archives/2015/apr/02/magic-schuberts-songs/


The opening line of the article gives us: _"Truly," Beethoven remarked in 1827, "in Schubert there dwells a divine spark."_ I would like (truly) to believe that Beethoven actually said that, but I have two issues with it. Firstly, the clunky _rendering_ of what Beethoven (may have) said; wouldn't it be more faithful to render it along the lines of "That Schubert fellow is really gifted"? Or is it a sort of 'transliteration' of 19th-century German?
Secondly, we know from Thayer/Forbes, Solomon _et al_ that Schindler is the source for the quote and therefore what credence can we give it?


----------



## KenOC

What Beethoven actually said: "That wretched Schubert character, everybody prefers his songs to mine. What's the matter with these damned Viennese???"


----------



## Guest

KenOC said:


> What Beethoven actually said: "That wretched Schubert character, everybody prefers his songs to mine. What's the matter with these damned Viennese???"


Nah, Ken, that's a clumsy and dated 40s rendering! What Ludwig actually said was this: "That fargin' mutha Schubert, everybody prefers his riffs to mine. WTF's up with these Vienna dudes?" In a _Rheinish_ accent, naturally.


----------



## Vaneyes

Impressions of Schubert songs.

http://www.theguardian.com/music/2016/jan/04/schubert-songs-a-mirror-to-real-life-wigmore-hall


----------



## clara s

a while ago, I listened to Schubert's piano trio 2

what a masterpiece

so rich in content, so clever in its structure...

the andante is still in my mind, extremely lyric and sad
with the cello accmpanying the piano

As Robert Schuman said for this, "spirited, masculine and dramatic".

Franz was really as much the son of Haydn and Mozart as the father of Schumann and Brahms, as they say


----------



## Abraham Lincoln

Happy birthday, little mushroom! 

(I nearly forgot about him... orz)


----------



## GioCar

I decided I have to listen to a bit more of his Lieder. I already have his main cycles (Mullerin, Winterreise, Schwanegesang) but I have almost no other CD with his songs, so I bought the BIG BOX (inspired by some former posts)










I found a good price on JPC (€ 150 + shipping).

Now I'm very tempted to buy the Johnson's book as well. An Italian bookstore sells it new for less than € 180...


----------



## hpowders

There is only one Schubert work I can listen to unconditionally and it's his last string quartet in G Major-as fine as any of Beethoven's greatest string quartets.


----------



## Blancrocher

hpowders said:


> There is only one Schubert work I can listen to unconditionally and it's his last string quartet in G Major-as fine as any of Beethoven's greatest string quartets.


Any recordings of it that you particularly covet, out of curiosity?


----------



## Abraham Lincoln




----------



## juliante

In my early days of appreciating orchestral music it was all about Mozart, Beethoven, Mendelssohn, Brahms etc. I gave Schubert's Great Symphony a listen but did not connect, i think i probably did not get past the 1st movement. (I am pleased to report that, some years later, my palate has expended significantly) Anyway, i finally got round to revisiting the 9th. What was i thinking of?? That second movement - would Beethoven not have been proud of that had he penned it?

Winterreisse, _that _string quintet and the 9th symphony. etc. Did anyone achieve such greatness in such a variety of disciplines by the age of 31?

Good work Franz, sorry you weren't around to enjoy well deserved reverence.


----------



## Blancrocher

For those interested, Vladimir Feltsman has a new recording of 12 Waltzes D924, and Piano Sonatas D960 and D664.









D.924





D.960: 

















D.664


----------



## hpowders

Blancrocher said:


> Any recordings of it that you particularly covet, out of curiosity?


Sorry, I took so long to get back to you. I need to hire a secretary. I am drowning in a sea of words!

Good performances of this work, IMHO, are by the Alban Berg Quartet, the Hagen Quartet and the Prazak Quartet.


----------



## PlaySalieri

juliante said:


> In my early days of appreciating orchestral music it was all about Mozart, Beethoven, Mendelssohn, Brahms etc. I gave Schubert's Great Symphony a listen but did not connect, i think i probably did not get past the 1st movement. (I am pleased to report that, some years later, my palate has expended significantly) Anyway, i finally got round to revisiting the 9th. What was i thinking of?? That second movement - would Beethoven not have been proud of that had he penned it?
> 
> Winterreisse, _that _string quintet and the 9th symphony. etc. Did anyone achieve such greatness in such a variety of disciplines by the age of 31?
> 
> Good work Franz, sorry you weren't around to enjoy well deserved reverence.


I am glad to say that as a Mozart devotee - I connected with Schubert from my very early days of Mozart mania. I still prefer Schubert's 9th to any Beethoven symphony and his great str quintet and last quartet trump Beethoven's best chamber works in my view. I have heard it said that Schubert was more influenced by Mozart than Beethoven - I certainly hear Mozart's spirit in much of Schubert's music.


----------



## PlaySalieri

hpowders said:


> Sorry, I took so long to get back to you. I need to hire a secretary. I am drowning in a sea of words!
> 
> Good performances of this work, IMHO, are by the Alban Berg Quartet, the Hagen Quartet and the Prazak Quartet.


The Tokyo Str Quartet have a great rec of his last qt.


----------



## PlaySalieri

juliante said:


> In my early days of appreciating orchestral music it was all about Mozart, Beethoven, Mendelssohn, Brahms etc. I gave Schubert's Great Symphony a listen but did not connect, i think i probably did not get past the 1st movement. (I am pleased to report that, some years later, my palate has expended significantly) Anyway, i finally got round to revisiting the 9th. What was i thinking of?? That second movement - would Beethoven not have been proud of that had he penned it?
> 
> Winterreisse, _that _string quintet and the 9th symphony. etc. *Did anyone achieve such greatness in such a variety of disciplines by the age of 31? *
> 
> Good work Franz, sorry you weren't around to enjoy well deserved reverence.


Yes - but just one - Mozart.


----------



## StlukesguildOhio

I became a Schubert devotee early on. Among the first recordings that I owned when I began to seriously explore Classical Music were the Serkin _Trout Quintet_:










the "Unfinished" by Bernstein:










& Brendel's Impromptus:










Schubert's lieder were virtually impossible to find outside of a major metropolitan area (being in German and likely considered quite esoteric at the time). I picked up my first Winterreise while on a trip to visit the museums and galleries in Chicago:










It always saddens me that Schubert is so grossly underestimated by some... often Beethoven fanboys. The wealth, range, and richness of his music is astounding... even if we ignore the fact that it was all composed by the time he was 31. There are few composers who surpassed his last two symphonies (IMO), his late quartets, late piano sonatas, the Trout Quintet, etc... No one rivals him as a composer of songs/lieder.

I would be hard-pressed to decide whose early death... Mozart's or Schubert's... was the greatest loss to music.


----------



## EdwardBast

stomanek said:


> I am glad to say that as a Mozart devotee - I connected with Schubert from my very early days of Mozart mania. I still prefer Schubert's 9th to any Beethoven symphony and his great str quintet and last quartet trump Beethoven's best chamber works in my view. I have heard it said that Schubert was more influenced by Mozart than Beethoven - I certainly hear Mozart's spirit in much of Schubert's music.


Depends on what period you are looking at. The Unfinished Symphony and the late sonatas show a clear influence of Beethoven.


----------



## PlaySalieri

StlukesguildOhio said:


> I became a Schubert devotee early on. Among the first recordings that I owned when I began to seriously explore Classical Music were the Serkin _Trout Quintet_:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> the "Unfinished" by Bernstein:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> & Brendel's Impromptus:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Schubert's lieder were virtually impossible to find outside of a major metropolitan area (being in German and likely considered quite esoteric at the time). I picked up my first Winterreise while on a trip to visit the museums and galleries in Chicago:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It always saddens me that Schubert is so grossly underestimated by some... often Beethoven fanboys. The wealth, range, and richness of his music is astounding... even if we ignore the fact that it was all composed by the time he was 31. There are few composers who surpassed his last two symphonies (IMO), his late quartets, late piano sonatas, the Trout Quintet, etc... No one rivals him as a composer of songs/lieder.
> 
> *I would be hard-pressed to decide whose early death... Mozart's or Schubert's... was the greatest loss to music.*


That would be an even draw. Think about what teh world would have lost if M had died at 31


----------



## KenOC

stomanek said:


> That would be an even draw. Think about what teh world would have lost if M had died at 31


A sobering thought, to be sure.


----------



## juliante

stomanek said:


> I am glad to say that as a Mozart devotee - I connected with Schubert from my very early days of Mozart mania. I still prefer Schubert's 9th to any Beethoven symphony and his great str quintet and last quartet trump Beethoven's best chamber works in my view. I have heard it said that Schubert was more influenced by Mozart than Beethoven - I certainly hear Mozart's spirit in much of Schubert's music.


I agree with all that - SQs (12), 13, 14 and 15 plus the quintet is a match for LvBs late quartets in my view - they just don't have the myth enshrouding them.


----------



## Pugg

My first love by Schubert: Sonata in A minor 'Arpeggione', D821 and the impromptus :tiphat:


----------



## PenaColada

This recording by the Alban Berg Quartett is amazing.


----------



## hpowders

stomanek said:


> The Tokyo Str Quartet have a great rec of his last qt.


Thanks. I haven't heard that version.


----------



## gellio

I've been mad for Schubert's 8th Symphony for years, but I haven't even scratched the surface of his works. All recommendations would be appreciated.


----------



## elgar's ghost

gellio said:


> I've been mad for Schubert's 8th Symphony for years, but I haven't even scratched the surface of his works. All recommendations would be appreciated.


I'd go with these, at least the repertoire if not the actual recordings.


----------



## Blancrocher

gellio said:


> I've been mad for Schubert's 8th Symphony for years, but I haven't even scratched the surface of his works. All recommendations would be appreciated.


Some personal favorites, with performers indicated if I have a strong preference:

Piano Sonata in A minor, D.784 (Lupu)





Piano Sonata in A minor, D.845

Piano Sonata in C, D.850 "Reliquie" (Richter)





Piano Sonata in G, D.894 (Richter) 





Last 3 Piano Sonatas

Fantasie in F minor (Emil and Elena Gilels/Richter and Benjamin Britten)









Impromptus and Moments musicaux

Piano Trios 1 & 2 (Beaux Arts Trio)









"Trout" Piano Quintet

String Quintet

String Quartet #15

Arpeggione Sonata

Winterreise

Die sch¨one Mullerin (Souzay)





There are hundreds of distinctive and memorable recordings of the lieder: listen widely, and follow the great singers.

Have fun!


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## gellio

Does anyone have the DG Edition box set. And thank you for the recs. Appreciated.


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## gellio

Oh my Lord, I am loving Schubert. I haven't been this excited since I discovered Mozart and Beethoven. I'm obsessed. Bought a ton of his works and a, loving them.


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## Pugg

gellio said:


> Does anyone have the DG Edition box set. And thank you for the recs. Appreciated.


Do you mean the lieder set by D-F-D ?


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## gellio

Pugg said:


> Do you mean the lieder set by D-F-D ?


No. Search "Schubert Edition" on Amazon. It's a new DG project. Got it yesterday. Made my way through the overtures - I loved every one.


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## Pugg

gellio said:


> No. Search "Schubert Edition" on Amazon. It's a new DG project. Got it yesterday. Made my way through the overtures - I loved every one.


I did just now, I saw three different ones


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## Vaneyes

Just buy The Trout, and be done.


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## Kjetil Heggelund

Anne Gastinel has a nice Schubert album  Arpeggione, violin sonatina and some lieder for cello & piano. It's on label naive & spotify


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## Headphone Hermit

gellio said:


> I've been mad for Schubert's 8th Symphony for years, but I haven't even scratched the surface of his works. All recommendations would be appreciated.


EMI did a 'Collector's Edition' box set of 50 CDs for about £60 (still available, I believe) which is a nice introduction - you get a lot of the well-known items but also some of the less well-known things. Its a useful introduction from which you can make further explorations of this wonderful composer's work


----------



## TurnaboutVox

Some of my favourites, restricting myself to works not mentioned by Blancrocher:


Notturno for piano trio in E flat major, D897
(Florestan Trio)

Octet in F, D. 803
(The Academy of Saint-Martin-in-the Fields)

String Quartet No.12 in C minor, D.703 - 'Quartettsatz'
String Quartet No.13 in A minor, D.804 - 'Rosamunde'
String Quartet No.14 in D minor, D.810 -'Death and the Maiden'
String Quartet No.15 in G, D.887 (listed by Blancrocher, but this is also a great version)
(Quartetto Italiano)

Piano Sonata No 6 in E minor, D566 / 506 (reconstructed)
(Gottlieb Wallisch)

Piano Sonata No. 13 in A, D. 664
(Sviatoslav Richter)

Piano Sonata No. 21 in B flat major, D. 960
(Wilhelm Kempff)


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## gellio

http://www.amazon.com/Schubert-Orch...ert edition&qid=1461981594&ref_=sr_1_1&sr=8-1


----------



## gellio

Artemis said:


> Other composers, both before and after Beethoven, have made some equally brilliant contributions to the art. The trick at an early age is not to become mesmerised by any one composer, but to be more open-minded.


Before: Bach and Mozart. After: Who? I can't think of one. The fact of the matter is Bach, Mozart and Beethoven are the three greatest composers we've ever seen. I don't know how anyone could argue otherwise. I got into the classical music with the Russians, then went to Mozart, then Beethoven, then many others including Bach. Like Mozart, I have loved Beethoven from day 1 (almost 20 years ago). Mozart is awe inspiring, Beethoven so passionate. Beethoven is miraculous. I no doubt will for ever love Beethoven and know many others who have loved him for years. I've just begun really diving into Schubert, and I haven't been this excited about a composer since Beethoven. That makes me so happy.


----------



## BoukeB

Just new in on this community. Schubert is the composer I always return to. I adore Beethoven and Mozart but also Verdi, Haydn, Rachmaninov, Schumann, Puccini, Bach. 
I saw just one mention of Lazarus in this thread I think. For me this was the revelation. I already knew 8 and 9 by heart, some Lieder and Piano Sonatas and few other works. But Lazarus created a whole new perception of Schuberts creations. It's unfinished but who cares? Jemina, Tochter der Auferstehung, O Barmherziger and Sanft und Still are incredible. I have the Sawallisch recording. The moment when the women and mens choir interlace and sing 'Das Der nun...' is of singular beauty.
Since then I have steadily acquainted myself with sonatas, trios, many Lieder, Dances, opera (Fierrabras has unique moments) etc.
Good to see I'm in good company!


----------



## Pugg

BoukeB said:


> Just new in on this community. Schubert is the composer I always return to. I adore Beethoven and Mozart but also Verdi, Haydn, Rachmaninov, Schumann, Puccini, Bach.
> I saw just one mention of Lazarus in this thread I think. For me this was the revelation. I already knew 8 and 9 by heart, some Lieder and Piano Sonatas and few other works. But Lazarus created a whole new perception of Schuberts creations. It's unfinished but who cares? Jemina, Tochter der Auferstehung, O Barmherziger and Sanft und Still are incredible. I have the Sawallisch recording. The moment when the women and mens choir interlace and sing 'Das Der nun...' is of singular beauty.
> Since then I have steadily acquainted myself with sonatas, trios, many Lieder, Dances, opera (Fierrabras has unique moments) etc.
> Good to see I'm in good company!


Welcome to TLC :tiphat:


----------



## Grotrian

Schubert -- perhaps the most natural melodist of all. He had a never ending supply. For me, only Mozart and Dvorak are his equal in this regard.


----------



## Animal the Drummer

Wouldn't disagree with any of those choices but, for sheer quality and consistency of melodic inspiration, I'd say Handel belongs up there with them.


----------



## BoukeB

Animal the Drummer said:


> Wouldn't disagree with any of those choices but, for sheer quality and consistency of melodic inspiration, I'd say Handel belongs up there with them.


What about the likes of Bach and Verdi? Have to admit that I know very little Dvorak or Handel (what a vast output!) so can't judge that from experience.


----------



## Animal the Drummer

Some of Bach's melodies are wonderful but, though I'm a huge fan of his music (he's second only to Mozart in my personal composers' pantheon), I wouldn't have picked out his melodic gift as the strongest card in his hand.

Verdi again penned some great melodies, but they don't speak to me as immediately as those of the other composers we've discussed. Not a value judgment, simply a personal reaction.


----------



## Lukecash12

Just now finished listening to the second movement of his _Der Tod und das Madchen_ quartet, which is one of my favorite single movements in his chamber oeuvre. Such a vibrant set of variations, harmonically simple (it just vacillates between b flat and e flat mostly, with small sections that deviate a bit) but studded with brilliant melodies and exquisite sensibilities when it comes to the thickness or sparseness of the chords.

One second it's funereal and the next it has your blood pumping vigorously. As soon as the first flighty variation kicks up I'm thinking "no one but Schubert".


----------



## Davila

Your 9th symphony made me believe in god


----------



## cheftimmyr

I'm interested in exploring Schubert and was wondering if any members had specific recommendations. I know that's a broad question given his array of works but from symphonic to chamber to lieder I want to delve into a variety.

Also, does anyone recommend the Harnoncourt Symphonic Cycle (released in 2015)? 

Thanks for suggestions!


----------



## TwoFlutesOneTrumpet

cheftimmyr said:


> I'm interested in exploring Schubert and was wondering if any members had specific recommendations. I know that's a broad question given his array of works but from symphonic to chamber to lieder I want to delve into a variety.
> 
> *Also, does anyone recommend the Harnoncourt Symphonic Cycle (released in 2015)? *
> 
> Thanks for suggestions!


I have his complete set with the Concertgebeaw Orchestra recorded in 1992, which I love. If that's the same as the 2015 release then yes highly recommended. Also very highly recommended is Claudio Abbado's set with the Chamber Orchestra of Europe


----------



## cheftimmyr

TwoFlutesOneTrumpet said:


> I have his complete set with the Concertgebeaw Orchestra recorded in 1992, which I love. If that's the same as the 2015 release then yes highly recommended. Also very highly recommended is Claudio Abbado's set with the Chamber Orchestra of Europe


The 2015 release references recordings with the BPO from 2003-2006; I'll look around for the '92 but that 2015 packaging is nice!


----------



## SiegendesLicht

cheftimmyr said:


> I'm interested in exploring Schubert and was wondering if any members had specific recommendations. I know that's a broad question given his array of works but from symphonic to chamber to lieder I want to delve into a variety.


If you are also interested in Schubert's piano sonatas (which are truly delightful) I would recommend the recording made by Wilhelm Kempff


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## Judith

Have the whole cycle of symphonies. Performed by Academy of St Martin in the Fields, conducted by Sir Neville Marriner.


----------



## Lenny

I hate to admit, but I just got the opportunity to listen to Schubert and Berio's Rendering. I guess I'm already the biggest Schubert fan in the town, but this... thing... what is this? where am I? Amazing, simply amazing.


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## hpowders

I had a new washing machine installed this morning and when the washing cycle ended, I was delighted that it played a little jingle-Schubert's Trout theme! Extraordinary!! I have new found respect for Samsung!!!


----------



## Lenny

hpowders said:


> I had a new washing machine installed this morning and when the washing cycle ended, I was delighted that it played a little jingle-Schubert's Trout theme! Extraordinary!! I have new found respect for Samsung!!!


Nice... Nice.... NICE!! I want that machine.


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## Bettina

hpowders said:


> I had a new washing machine installed this morning and when the washing cycle ended, I was delighted that it played a little jingle-Schubert's Trout theme! Extraordinary!! I have new found respect for Samsung!!!


Now you need to dry the clothes. Don't leave the laundry unfinished!


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## hpowders

Bettina said:


> Now you need to dry the clothes. Don't leave the laundry unfinished!


My dryer is "older". It plays an irregular rattling rhythm with a loud 1 second buzzer when finished.

The washer is First Class.

The dryer is Coach.


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## lextune

SiegendesLicht said:


> If you are also interested in Schubert's piano sonatas (which are truly delightful) I would recommend the recording made by Wilhelm Kempff
> 
> View attachment 87433


Yes. I recommend Kempff as well, wholeheartedly.


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## Vaneyes

Can we please get serious about Schubert.


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## Pugg

Vaneyes said:


> Can we please get serious about Schubert.


----------



## DavidA

U


cheftimmyr said:


> I'm interested in exploring Schubert and was wondering if any members had specific recommendations. I know that's a broad question given his array of works but from symphonic to chamber to lieder I want to delve into a variety.
> 
> Also, does anyone recommend the Harnoncourt Symphonic Cycle (released in 2015)?
> 
> Thanks for suggestions!


Some recommendations as starters - I'm not recommending full cycles:

Piano sonata D960 one of the most profound works for piano. So many great recordings but Kovacevich or Lupu are stunning
Wintereisse - Bostridge or Padmore is fine but if you can take the coughs try Schreier / Richter live. Mesmeric
Symphony 8 take Karajan (EMI) Beecham or Wand
String Quintet - Melos with Rostropovich
Death and the Maiden Quartet - Italian Quartet
Wanderer Fantasy - Richter or Pollini
Die Schone Mullerin - Bostridge or Schreier.
But the list is endless.


----------



## cheftimmyr

DavidA said:


> U
> 
> Some recommendations as starters - I'm not recommending full cycles:
> 
> Piano sonata D960 one of the most profound works for piano. So many great recordings but Kovacevich or Lupu are stunning
> Wintereisse - Bostridge or Padmore is fine but if you can take the coughs try Schreier / Richter live. Mesmeric
> Symphony 8 take Karajan (EMI) Beecham or Wand
> String Quintet - Melos with Rostropovich
> Death and the Maiden Quartet - Italian Quartet
> Wanderer Fantasy - Richter or Pollini
> Die Schone Mullerin - Bostridge or Schreier.
> But the list is endless.


Thanks David, will definitely explore. I am starting the Kempff tomorrow and have seen frequent req's for Lupu, Richter and Goldstone on other forums so I'm looking forward to gaining some familiarity.


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## JosefinaHW

Does anyone know if any of the orchestrated versions of Schubert Lieder performed by Matthias Goerne have been released on CD? I haven't found any so far.  At least I have a wonderful video of him performing this year with the Berlin Philharmonic and a performance conducted by Jaap van Zweeden in the late 90s, but I'd like to be able to play them in the car.


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## hpowders

Not a Schubert fan, but I warmly recommend his last string quartet, the G Major.


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## Pugg

JosefinaHW said:


> Does anyone know if any of the orchestrated versions of Schubert Lieder performed by Matthias Goerne have been released on CD? I haven't found any so far.  At least I have a wonderful video of him performing this year with the Berlin Philharmonic and a performance conducted by Jaap van Zweeden in the late 90s, but I'd like to be able to play them in the car.


I couldn't find them , so I am afraid I can't help you there.


----------



## Czech composer

I am definitely not expert on Schubert, but from that several works I am familiar with I have an impression, that Schubert must be one of the most "homophonic" or "un-polyphonic" composers.
I wonder if there are compositions, where he uses some sort of extended conrtapuntal technique?
Only one where he is close to counterpoint and which I am familiar with is Moment musical no.4. But it still sound
to me rather like melody with accompaniment and "figurated?" "deconstructed?" (don´t how it say in english) chords.


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## JosefinaHW

Thanksgiving for Franz Schubert on His Birthday

Christoph Prégardien and Michael Gees

https://postimage.org/


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## JosefinaHW

Matthias Goerne, Schubert _Lieder_

(This is still my favorite of all Schubert performances and YouTube videos of ANY kind)

https://postimage.org/


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## Pugg

Good on you!


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## JosefinaHW

Pugg said:


> Good on you!


??? Thanks for letting us know yesterday was Schubert's birthday!


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## jenspen

JosefinaHW said:


> ??? Thanks for letting us know yesterday was Schubert's birthday!


Yes, thank you. These days I have trouble remembering my own. But I did have a go at playing one of the Impromptus so I suppose I celebrated the great man's birthday unawares.


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## Bettina

Czech composer said:


> I am definitely not expert on Schubert, but from that several works I am familiar with I have an impression, that Schubert must be one of the most "homophonic" or "un-polyphonic" composers.
> I wonder if there are compositions, where he uses some sort of extended conrtapuntal technique?


Schubert's Wanderer Fantasy contains a fugal section. It's quite a violent and powerful fugue, almost Beethovenian! It starts at 18:10 in this video:


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## chromatic owl

Schubert's late masses are full of sophisticated counterpoint and extended fugal writing.


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## hpowders

Bettina said:


> Schubert's Wanderer Fantasy contains a fugal section. It's quite a violent and powerful fugue, almost Beethovenian! It starts at 18:10 in this video:


I'm not a Schubert fanatic but I do like this piece and love that fugue. So powerful, that my mind never _Wanders_.


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## Pugg

chromatic owl said:


> Schubert's late masses are full of sophisticated counterpoint and extended fugal writing.


They are wonderful, I like the Wolfgang Sawallisch set.


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## Pugg

*For Mr Schubert's birthday.*






Franz Schubert - Winterreise / Ian Bostridge and Julius Drake ( Entire )


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## JosefinaHW

Thank you for keeping up with these birthdays, Pugg! One of the greatest discoveries I made here on TC are Schubert's_ Lieder_! For me Schubert & Matthias Goerne are now forever inseparable. My favorite piece for the month of January is _Du bist die Ruh. A_mongst many other things Goerne's breath control and smooth dynamic range are breathtaking for me.


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## TennysonsHarp

Happy belated birthday to this greatest of geniuses. His ability to craft melodies of pure beauty is why he is my favorite composer. I leave this, my favorite of his lieder, as a tribute:


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## clavichorder

The 1st movement is the ascent of a mountain, the coda the triumph of the summit.


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## hpowders

One of the few Schubert works I love is one of the last things he ever composed, the Shepherd on the Rock (Der Hirt auf dem Felsen) for female voice, piano and clarinet obbligato.


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## Larkenfield

Why Schubert was a melodic genius and won't be forgotten...


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## flamencosketches

Larkenfield said:


> Why Schubert was a melodic genius and won't be forgotten...


My girlfriend and I have been learning this as a duet for four hands. Just about the most beautiful thing I can play, which isn't much.

Schubert is definitely one of the greatest melodists of all time and I often say he is my favorite composer. He's certainly the one I've had love for the longest. There's been many days in the past few months where his music is all I listen to.


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## JosefinaHW

This is so damn cool! An analysis of keys and modulations and the emotional reason for them in Schubert's _Erlkoni_g. Many thanks to Woodduck for introducing me to this professor at the University of the Arts in the city of Philadelphia! :kiss: (And another great big hug and kiss to everyone who has participated in the Decoding Beethoven thread--I am so incredibly grateful!)


----------



## flamencosketches

Schubert wrote so much damn music... I'll never hear it all.


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## DavidA

flamencosketches said:


> Schubert wrote so much damn music... I'll never hear it all.


Mozart wrote even more! Perhaps we should stick to Webern! :lol:


----------



## flamencosketches

:lol:

One of these days I'll get into Webern. And then back to Schubert the next.


----------



## Sid James

I've just finished reading a book which was hard to put down, Ed Vulliamy's _When Words Fail: A Life with Music, War and Peace_. Mr. Vulliamy is a journalist who was primarily a war correspondent. His lifelong passion for music led him to write this book, part autobiography and traversal of history. He covers many conflicts, both from his time and before, relating them to culture, politics and history. The book covers many different kinds of music, but in terms of classical the two composers Vulliamy focusses on are Schubert and Shostakovich. One can be seen as the beginning of the end of the Enlightenment, the other as the end of it.

Vulliamy starts the chapter on Schubert describing a performance of Winterreise. Its a sensitive description of each song on this journey from nothing into nothing, unremittingly bleak, filled with symbols of loneliness and death. He then relates this to the nihilistic outlook of the playwright Samuel Beckett, whose favourite composer was Schubert. Beckett considered Schubert a kindred spirit, a friend in suffering.

Schubert described Winterreise as "a cycle of horrific songs." Vulliamy says that the isolation lies more in Schubert's music than in the poems by Wilhelm Müller, "Schubert is not setting the poetry - he is realizing it." That makes me ask whether Schubert was to music as Stanislavsky was to acting?

The pianist at that performance was Paul Lewis, one of Schubert's foremost interpreters today. A protege of Alfred Brendel, Lewis came from a working class background and talks of his experiences as a young musician. He gives many interesting insights into Schubert, one of the most elusive of all composers, including the relationship between him and Beethoven:

_We're all supposed to think that the Viennese classical era produced one tradition of music. But no: Beethoven always seems to find a way through, even to triumph. Schubert never does. He never finds a solution. At least, not after 1822 when he was diagnosed with syphilis. Everything then changes in the music, it becomes so bleak. Beethoven takes you through the shadow of the valley, but there's resolution in the end. Schubert not so - he takes you on a journey, and he leaves you nowhere._

Lewis relates this to other works, including the late piano sonatas and 'Unfinished' Symphony. That work and the 'Reliquie' piano sonata, Vulliamy observes, share the same sense of tension found in Michelangelo's 'unfinished' statues of captives. They are trapped but struggle for eternity to be free from their existing forms.

Earlier in the book, Lewis talks about playing the Sonata in A minor D784 to a group of children who had never heard it before. The pianist was surprised by their reaction:

_It was a concert for seven-and-eight-year-olds, and I played a passage from the A Minor...the "syphilis sonata" as I call it, bleakest of all. Why am I playing them this? I wondered - but no going back, it's the last movement, a cry of distress. They weren't prepared: I said, "I'm just going to play this to you, tell me what you think it means." And I couldn't believe what they came up with - "He sounds scared of something","He's running away","He's remembering another time." It was exactly what I'd spent years discovering. They'd never heard Schubert, but knew what he was trying to say. They understood the emotion, they heard it._

Lewis is on the same page as Beckett was regarding Schubert, and indeed as Vulliamy is. To quote Lewis again:

_Beethoven is the most complete composer of all, because of this sense of resolution. But in my own life, I don't feel that I've arrived anywhere that is a culmination. I'm not sure there ever is such a place, and that is what makes Schubert the most human of all composers. The fact that there's no escape means it does not have to be as bleak as it appears. In real life, what do we escape from? Very little, and it's possible to come to terms with that._

Reading this connected with my own experience of Schubert. Some aspects of it are really hard to take - the anguish and bleakness that Lewis talked of in terms of the late works - but I also see how it relates to life in a more mundane sense. Even in his less confronting pieces, there is a sense of the fragility and transience of life. Although this would all very much come to the fore in the music of later generations, the sense of economy and subtlety of Schubert's utterances only serve to strengthen the impact of his ideas. He achieves profundity using melodies which in other hands would come across as merely banal.

The sense of doubt makes Schubert's music to be less of his time and more of our own time - one which Vulliamy traversed in his work, an era where certainty is but an illusion. Post-Holocaust, Post-Vietnam, Post-war on terror. So, if this is the end of the journey, where has it lead? Or is this yet another beginning to a better future? There's no answers to this, and therein lies the sense of including Schubert in this book that goes way beyond the confines of his small world and short life.


----------



## Larkenfield

Sid James said:


> I've just finished reading a book which was hard to put down, Ed Vulliamy's _When Words Fail: A Life with Music, War and Peace_. Mr. Vulliamy is a journalist who was primarily a war correspondent. His lifelong passion for music led him to write this book, part autobiography and traversal of history. He covers many conflicts, both from his time and before, relating them to culture, politics and history. The book covers many different kinds of music, but in terms of classical the two composers Vulliamy focusses on are Schubert and Shostakovich. One can be seen as the beginning of the end of the Enlightenment, the other as the end of it.
> 
> Vulliamy starts the chapter on Schubert describing a performance of Winterreise. Its a sensitive description of each song on this journey from nothing into nothing, unremittingly bleak, filled with symbols of loneliness and death. He then relates this to the nihilistic outlook of the playwright Samuel Beckett, whose favourite composer was Schubert. Beckett considered Schubert a kindred spirit, a friend in suffering.
> 
> Schubert described Winterreise as "a cycle of horrific songs." Vulliamy says that the isolation lies more in Schubert's music than in the poems by Wilhelm Müller, "Schubert is not setting the poetry - he is realizing it." That makes me ask whether Schubert was to music as Stanislavsky was to acting?
> 
> The pianist at that performance was Paul Lewis, one of Schubert's foremost interpreters today. A protege of Alfred Brendel, Lewis came from a working class background and talks of his experiences as a young musician. He gives many interesting insights into Schubert, one of the most elusive of all composers, including the relationship between him and Beethoven:
> 
> _We're all supposed to think that the Viennese classical era produced one tradition of music. But no: Beethoven always seems to find a way through, even to triumph. Schubert never does. He never finds a solution. At least, not after 1822 when he was diagnosed with syphilis. Everything then changes in the music, it becomes so bleak. Beethoven takes you through the shadow of the valley, but there's resolution in the end. Schubert not so - he takes you on a journey, and he leaves you nowhere._
> 
> Lewis relates this to other works, including the late piano sonatas and 'Unfinished' Symphony. That work and the 'Reliquie' piano sonata, Vulliamy observes, share the same sense of tension found in Michelangelo's 'unfinished' statues of captives. They are trapped but struggle for eternity to be free from their existing forms.
> 
> Earlier in the book, Lewis talks about playing the Sonata in A minor D784 to a group of children who had never heard it before. The pianist was surprised by their reaction:
> 
> _It was a concert for seven-and-eight-year-olds, and I played a passage from the A Minor...the "syphilis sonata" as I call it, bleakest of all. Why am I playing them this? I wondered - but no going back, it's the last movement, a cry of distress. They weren't prepared: I said, "I'm just going to play this to you, tell me what you think it means." And I couldn't believe what they came up with - "He sounds scared of something","He's running away","He's remembering another time." It was exactly what I'd spent years discovering. They'd never heard Schubert, but knew what he was trying to say. They understood the emotion, they heard it._
> 
> Lewis is on the same page as Beckett was regarding Schubert, and indeed as Vulliamy is. To quote Lewis again:
> 
> _Beethoven is the most complete composer of all, because of this sense of resolution. But in my own life, I don't feel that I've arrived anywhere that is a culmination. I'm not sure there ever is such a place, and that is what makes Schubert the most human of all composers. The fact that there's no escape means it does not have to be as bleak as it appears. In real life, what do we escape from? Very little, and it's possible to come to terms with that._
> 
> Reading this connected with my own experience of Schubert. Some aspects of it are really hard to take - the anguish and bleakness that Lewis talked of in terms of the late works - but I also see how it relates to life in a more mundane sense. Even in his less confronting pieces, there is a sense of the fragility and transience of life. Although this would all very much come to the fore in the music of later generations, the sense of economy and subtlety of Schubert's utterances only serve to strengthen the impact of his ideas. He achieves profundity using melodies which in other hands would come across as merely banal.
> 
> The sense of doubt makes Schubert's music to be less of his time and more of our own time - one which Vulliamy traversed in his work, an era where certainty is but an illusion. Post-Holocaust, Post-Vietnam, Post-war on terror. So, if this is the end of the journey, where has it lead? Or is this yet another beginning to a better future? There's no answers to this, and therein lies the sense of including Schubert in this book that goes way beyond the confines of his small world and short life.


 Bravo. Fascinating and well said.


----------



## Sid James

Larkenfield said:


> Bravo. Fascinating and well said.


Thank you, however real credit is due to Vulliamy for his incisive interviews and analysis. The whole book has not only been informative but in many respects confirmed aspects of my own approach to music.

I plan to do a similar write up on Shostakovich and put it on his thread here, but that will take time since three chapters are devoted to him. They cover the stories behind the 5th and 7th symphonies and also the operetta Moscow Cheryomushki. The chapter on the 7th is particularly interesting, since Vulliamy interviewed the surviving musicians from the Leningrad premiere, one of the key moments in music of the 20th century. Vulliamy scrapes away at the myths, controversies and ideologies in an attempt to come to the heart of the paradox which is Shostakovich.


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## KenOC

I'm not sure whether it has been mentioned in this thread, but Schubert has in recent years been the subject of a controversy involving his private life. It was discussed in the New York Times in *this article*.


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## Sid James

Schubert remains one of the most elusive of all famous composers. There's little primary evidence (such as letters) remaining and most of the recollections by those who knew him where recorded decades after his death. His sexuality is still an open question. Its likely he had casual sex with women of low class - for example Vulliamy mentions a chambermaid called Pepi Pockelhofer - and even prostitutes, a number of accounts describe him visiting seedy parts of Vienna. There is conjecture about possible homosexuality or bisexuality. Like Beethoven, he admired noble women who where unattainable such as Caroline Eszterhazy who was like a confidante to him.

Despite the uncertain details its clear that he wasn't interested in living a bourgeois lifestyle - marriage, children, a day job and so on. He loathed following his father's footsteps into teaching. He lived a life akin to the rock stars closer to our times, although he was only known to a small circle of friends and benefactors. His routine would be made up of composing during the day, performing at the gatherings known as Schubertiads in the evening and then socialising and drinking into the small hours. Periodically he would get cashed up with the sale of a set of songs and then blow it on parties. Its estimated that if he had kept a conservative budget, he could have lived comfortably like a lower level civil servant of the time.


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## Guest

That Schubert led an unconventional life-style compared with some great composers is hardly "news". It's well known that he lived a largely bohemian style of existence, did not crave for a big reputation, was unlucky in love, earned very little during his lifetime, was little known outside of his small group of friends upon whom he often relied upon for both financial and moral support, that he picked up syphyllis at around age 25, that he wrote music at odd times of the day sometimes going into a kind of trance. 

His sexuality is an uncertain area, but he did attempt a marriage to a young lady (who was not of noble birth), but this all went awry before the marriage took place. Some of the murkier speculations in this area don't interest me.

To leave things there is a pretty one-sided account of things, and to say the least hardly does justice to the man. He wrote a great deal of music of superlative quality, despite the several quite irritating comments to the contrary by a few people in another current thread. He revolutionised the genre of lieder, and made other worthy advances into the "romantic" era. In my estimation no other composer had the same high quality gifts of melody quite like Schubert's. Of all the great composers who died young, Schubert is the most outstanding in my view. This high opinion is shared by other classical music fans, as judged by the normally very high position achieved by Schubert in favourite composer polls.


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## KenOC

Some time ago, on the old Amazon forum, we had a long series of games looking for the top ten works in every decade. Beethoven took all ten places in the 1800s, and all but one place in the 1810s. And then, in the 1820s:

1 - Schubert: String Quintet in C major D.956 (1828)
2 - Schubert: "Winterreise" D.911 (1827)
3 - Beethoven: Symphony #9 in D minor Op.125 "Choral" (1824)
4 - Beethoven: Piano Sonata #32 in C minor, Op.111 (1821-22)
5 - Schubert: String Quartet #15 in G major D.887 (1826)
6 - Beethoven: String Quartet #14 in C-sharp minor Op.131 (1826)
7 - Beethoven: String Quartet #15 in A minor Op.132 (1825)
8 - Schubert: Symphony #9 in C major D.944 "Great" (1826)
9 - Beethoven: Piano Sonata #30 in E major Op.109 (1820)
10 - Schubert: Fantasia in F minor for piano four hands D.940 (1828)

I'd say any composer that can compete with late Beethoven on equal terms has got to be formidable indeed!

The entire set of decade games can be seen here.


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## flamencosketches

Must have been a controversial move putting Winterreise and the Quintet over Beethoven's 9th, but I would have done the same.


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## flamencosketches

Hearing Artur Schnabel play Schubert has been a major revelation. I feel like I'm hearing this music for the first time, somehow.






This is one I found particularly affecting.

Has anyone else been listening to Schubert lately? I've been listening to this Schnabel box set all day, but now I feel like listening to one of the symphonies...


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## Mandryka

flamencosketches said:


> Hearing Artur Schnabel play Schubert has been a major revelation. I feel like I'm hearing this music for the first time, somehow.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is one I found particularly affecting.
> 
> Has anyone else been listening to Schubert lately? I've been listening to this Schnabel box set all day, but now I feel like listening to one of the symphonies...


I will send you an interesting recording of Schubert 9 later.


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## flamencosketches

Please do, that sounds great. Of the few Schubert 9ths that I've heard, one that I really like is Blomstedt/Staatskapelle Dresden.


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## HerbertNorman

Each and every piece this man wrote touches me... So you could call me a real fan. Dietrich Fischer Dieskau singing the Lieder , at least the two song cycles "Winterreise" and "Die schöne Müllerin" , I still haven't heard anyone interpret it as good as he does.
The pianists interpretations... well for me Artur Schnabel and Alfred Brendel are the best I have heard


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## flamencosketches

I have been listening to a lot of Schubert lately, mostly the symphonies and the piano music. I've been falling in love with his music again after the better part of a year not listening to him much at all.


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## starthrower

flamencosketches said:


> I have been listening to a lot of Schubert lately, mostly the symphonies and the piano music. I've been falling in love with his music again after the better part of a year not listening to him much at all.


What Symphonies do you like other than the famous ones like 5, 8-9?


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## flamencosketches

starthrower said:


> What Symphonies do you like other than the famous ones like 5, 8-9?


3 and 4 (the "Tragic") are both great. Check out the Kleiber/Vienna recording of the 3rd symphony, if you can, it's awesome. I also recently realized that the 1st symphony is quite good too, in a Haydnesque way. 2 and 6 are both quite good too, but I don't have as much love for them. Check out the Roy Goodman/Hanover Band recordings if you can, they are really amazing, especially in the earlier symphonies. I've heard good things about the Harnoncourt/Concertgebouw cycle too. Schubert's symphonies, I think, benefit from at least somewhat of a HIP perspective.

My favorites remain 8 and 9, of course, especially 8, mostly for nostalgic reasons. Both are damn fine symphonies, to stand up to anyone's.

I want to get a CD of the Impromptus to complement the Schnabel I have, which is great, but slightly rough sound. I'm looking at Lupu, Perahia, and Kempff. Of the samples I heard I was most impressed with the Kempff... any opinions, anyone? I think the impromptus are the key to Schubert's piano music.


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## Mandryka

Schnabel’s very good in that music, it’s certainly one of his recordings I like the most, I can send you a good Japanese transfer if you want. It sounds fine to me. Of the ones you mentioned, I remember that there are some memorable things in Lupu, especially the second set.


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## Rogerx

flamencosketches said:


> I have been listening to a lot of Schubert lately, mostly the symphonies and the piano music. I've been falling in love with his music again after the better part of a year not listening to him much at all.


Have you ever tried the Mass section in his work?


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## HerbertNorman

flamencosketches said:


> I have been listening to a lot of Schubert lately, mostly the symphonies and the piano music. I've been falling in love with his music again after the better part of a year not listening to him much at all.


Listen to the song cycles again "Die Winterreise" or "Die Schöne Müllerin". I would recommend the Album of Dietrich Fischer Dieskau , accompanied by Alfred Brendel in 1986 (Winterreise) and "Die Schöne Müllerin" where he is accompanied by Brendel and Andras Schiff (Arthaus 2012)


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## Mozartino

Mi favorite work is "symphonies Complete" by Karajan.


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## flamencosketches

Mandryka said:


> Schnabel's very good in that music, it's certainly one of his recordings I like the most, I can send you a good Japanese transfer if you want. It sounds fine to me. Of the ones you mentioned, I remember that there are some memorable things in Lupu, especially the second set.


He is, no doubt, and I enjoy it a lot. I just sometimes want to hear something in more modern sound. I think the transfer I have is fine. It's a recording from later in his career, so it's not nearly as rough as the sound on some of his Beethoven sonatas recordings. Lupu sounds promising, but I know nothing of him as a pianist.

@Rogerx, no I have not heard any of his masses, but I just got a free Naxos download with Mass no.5 in A-flat major the other day. Need to check that out.


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## starthrower

I have the symphonies, and masses on Brilliant Classics. And the sonatas by Christian Zacharaias, and Impromtus by Maria Joao Pires.


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## Mandryka

flamencosketches said:


> He is, no doubt, and I enjoy it a lot. I just sometimes want to hear something in more modern sound. I think the transfer I have is fine. It's a recording from later in his career, so it's not nearly as rough as the sound on some of his Beethoven sonatas recordings. Lupu sounds promising, but I know nothing of him as a pianist.
> 
> @Rogerx, no I have not heard any of his masses, but I just got a free Naxos download with Mass no.5 in A-flat major the other day. Need to check that out.


Lupu's Schubert is refined and introspective, his impromptus recording is one of his better Schubert ones.


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## Allegro Con Brio

flamencosketches said:


> I want to get a CD of the Impromptus to complement the Schnabel I have, which is great, but slightly rough sound. I'm looking at Lupu, Perahia, and Kempff. Of the samples I heard I was most impressed with the Kempff... any opinions, anyone? I think the impromptus are the key to Schubert's piano music.


Lupu is indeed quite interesting, but I think he sort of lingers too much over these pieces in order to make them more "profound" than they are. I quite like what he does in his Brahms album, but that style isn't as convincing for me in Schubert. I like to hear Schubert played in a classical, balanced way that brings out the music's inherent radiant beauty. Have you heard Krystian Zimerman in anything before? He's one of my favorite pianists, but not everyone appreciates his playing because it can be so fussy and perfectionist. Every last detail of his interpretations is planned to the T. He's worth hearing in the Impromptus to see if he floats your boat or not (though my favorite work of his is his Debussy Preludes, Chopin Ballades, and Liszt Sonata; which I consider definitive readings of those works). Otherwise Brendel is my favorite "safe" pick for the Impromptus- I find him more convincing in these miniatures than in the sonatas where structure is more important.


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## flamencosketches

Allegro Con Brio said:


> Lupu is indeed quite interesting, but I think he sort of lingers too much over these pieces in order to make them more "profound" than they are. I quite like what he does in his Brahms album, but that style isn't as convincing for me in Schubert. I like to hear Schubert played in a classical, balanced way that brings out the music's inherent radiant beauty. Have you heard Krystian Zimerman in anything before? He's one of my favorite pianists, but not everyone appreciates his playing because it can be so fussy and perfectionist. Every last detail of his interpretations is planned to the T. He's worth hearing in the Impromptus to see if he floats your boat or not (though my favorite work of his is his Debussy Preludes, Chopin Ballades, and Liszt Sonata; which I consider definitive readings of those works). Otherwise Brendel is my favorite "safe" pick for the Impromptus- I find him more convincing in these miniatures than in the sonatas where structure is more important.


I like Zimerman's recording of the Grieg Piano Concerto, but I haven't heard much else. I'll check out his Schubert. Thanks. Interesting notes re: Lupu. I have heard others make similar points about Schubert's impromptus and their perceived depth.


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## Mandryka

Fun video here, watch his face! I've only ever seen him twice, both in the past 10 years, I don't remember such a show of body language!

In my experience, Joyce Hatto is always a good guide. Her Schubert impromptus, or some of them, were by Michel Delbarto, and I've just been listening to his D946 on Denon. The sound, just at the level of the sound, is amazing! It's like he's here in the room tickling the ivories just for me!


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## flamencosketches

Mandryka said:


> In my experience, Joyce Hatto is always a good guide. Her Schubert impromptus, or some of them, were by Michel Delbarto, and I've just been listening to his D946 on Denon. The sound, just at the level of the sound, is amazing! It's like he's here in the room tickling the ivories just for me!


Were these recordings ever reissued in the wake of Hatto's recordings being exposed as a fraud? That is still a mind boggling story to me.


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## Mandryka

Yes, 14 CDs in a big Brilliant box.

Re Hatto, I think that William Barrington-Coupe's taste in pianists often coincided with mine, and I've rarely been let down by his choices. When I was really exploring the piano repertoire this site was great fun -- I would always try to hear the original Hatto pianists

http://www.farhanmalik.com/hatto/main.html


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## flamencosketches

Mandryka said:


> Yes, 14 CDs in a big Brilliant box.
> 
> Re Hatto, I think that William Barrington-Coupe's taste in pianists often coincided with mine, and I've rarely been let down by his choices. When I was really exploring the piano repertoire this site was great fun -- I would always try to hear the original Hatto pianists
> 
> http://www.farhanmalik.com/hatto/main.html


This is all fascinating. What was wrong with that guy to where he thought this would be a good idea?

I'm sure you've read this:

https://www.theguardian.com/news/2006/jul/10/guardianobituaries.artsobituaries1

It's amazing the reception these fraudulent recordings have garnered.


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## Josquin13

I agree that there are discoveries to made in regards to the pianists that William Barrington-Coupe chosen to steal from, in order to create his wife's fake recording legacy. But he often adapted those recordings to his own taste (or possibly hers?) by changing the tempi (as well as to be evasive). So you're not always hearing the exact recording by the pianist, since it may be sped up or possibly slowed down by Barrington-Coupe.

Regardless, Michel Dalberto's whole Schubert cycle for Denon (Brilliant) is excellent, and his 8 Impromptus are well worth hearing (& owning), I agree.

(A wonderful "Hatto" discovery that I've made recently is Margit Rahkonen's Debussy Etudes. It has become one of my favorites, along with Michel Beroff's brilliant Denon recording. What's too bad is that in their embarrassment over the Hatto scandal, the British critics didn't defend their choices! For instance, they continue to pump Mitsuko Uchida's Debussy Etudes over & over again, rather than even mention Margit Rahkonen's, & I think they got it right with Rahkonen. Therefore, it's a pity that they dropped her like a hot potato, since I would have liked to have heard more Debussy from this fine pianist. However, when Finlandia folded, Rahkonen lost her recording contract, and she doesn't seem to have had much of a recording career after that. What a shame! It also plainly shows how heavy the British critic's bias is or can be towards UK or UK based musicians (not to mention that Rahkonen's Debussy Etudes are clearly not played by an elderly woman, technically speaking, but by a young, vibrant pianist, and Barrington-Coupe even sped them up!).

As for Schubert's 8 Impromptus, the two classic historical recordings are generally considered to be Edwin Fischer and Artur Schnabel's. Rudolf Serkin is worth hearing, too. After that, I've most liked the analogue recordings by Radu Lupu and Alfred Brendel's first Philips recording, which won a Penguin Rosette award (& deservedly so); as well as the digital era recordings by Maria João Pires (on Erato & DG), who's not afraid to bring out the darker, more uncomfortable elements in Schubert piano music, and Michel Dalberto. Perahia is good, too, but I don't prefer him in Schubert over Lupu, Brendel, Dalberto, or Pires. & the same is true for Zimerman, who doesn't find the emotional depth (or angst) in Schubert that both Lupu & Pires bring out, but chooses to stay more on the surface, which admittedly some listeners may feel more comfortable with & prefer. (I prefer Zimerman in Chopin & Mozart myself.) I also agree that Lupu's Schubert 8 Impromptus are among his finest recordings.

Edwin Fischer:




https://www.amazon.com/Schubert-Imp...bert+impromptus&qid=1579373231&s=music&sr=1-1

Radu Lupu:








https://www.amazon.com/Schubert-Imp...u+lupu+schubert&qid=1579373020&s=music&sr=1-2

Alfred Brendel:




https://www.amazon.com/Schubert-Imp...ert+impromptus&qid=1579373052&s=music&sr=1-10
https://www.amazon.com/Schubert-Com...bert+impromptus&qid=1579373052&s=music&sr=1-7

Maria João Pires:




https://www.amazon.com/Schubert-Imp...bert+impromptus&qid=1579373181&s=music&sr=1-1
https://www.amazon.com/Schubert-Imp...bert+impromptus&qid=1579373181&s=music&sr=1-2

If you're exploring period performances of Schubert's Symphonies, Bruno Weil's "Unfinished", with The Classical Band, might be of interest, at least, I liked it very much:

"Unfinished": 




Also, Jos van Immerseel's Schubert cycle is fascinating from the standpoint of the authentic Viennese horns that he took pains to track down and use: 



.


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## flamencosketches

^The Dalberto Schubert recordings are hard to find, it seems. I'll check out the Brendel you mention. Thanks.


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## Bourdon

I have both but my prefence is also the first Philips set

This is what you need

https://www.ebay.nl/itm/The-Art-Of-...884757?hash=item341114f215:g:OVgAAOSwPqtdVa8o

and you won't miss the impromptus

https://www.ebay.nl/itm/SCHUBERT-Th...701121?hash=item5932f05741:g:BmkAAOSwRkJdVsWX


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## Josquin13

flamencosketches said:


> ^The Dalberto Schubert recordings are hard to find, it seems. I'll check out the Brendel you mention. Thanks.


Yes, the complete box set reissue by Brilliant is (& seems to go in and out of print). But the various Denon volumes didn't used to be, the last I checked. (Btw, the set was once boxed by Denon in Japan, before they licensed it to Brilliant.) RCA Red Seal also reissued Dalberto's Impromptus in a 2 CD set--as an import: https://www.casals-classical.com/pr...wanderer-fantasy-etc-rca-82876-704672-2cd-set, and more recently the Signum dal Segno label has been reissuing the Denon catalogue, including Dalberto's Impromptus (however, it looks pricey, too, so I gather it's OOP already?). It seems to me that another label is likewise currently reissuing the old Denon catalogue, but I can't recall which one...?

By the way, Denon used to be a very good label for discovering new pianists back in the 1980s & early 90s--such as Kocsis, Schiff, Ranki, Pires, Thibaudet, Rouvier, Planes, Dalberto, Afanassiev, etc. It's a pity that they don't exist anymore, because whoever was in charge of contracting young pianists for that label knew what they were doing.

I have the Philips "The Art of Brendel" Schubert box that Bourdon mentions, and one of the individual Philips CDs, too. But I prefer the AMSI remasters in the Universal Eloquence Brendel Schubert box set, even though I suppose the differences are fairly marginal: https://www.amazon.com/Brendel-Spie...keywords=brendel+spielt&qid=1579380290&sr=8-3. I'd urge you to at least listen to 2 or 3 Impromptus as played by Brendel, Lupu, Pires, & Dalberto (and Fischer)--to compare them, because the interpretations are all so different, and you may not favor Brendel's Impromptus over Lupu's, for instance.


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## Janspe

I've been working on the first movement of the A minor sonata (D.784) for some time now. I'm not a professional pianist in any way, but I think I'm making good progress. However, it feels very difficult to approach such a piece - there are so many little moments that are so important and downright _impossible_ to get right, even if the technical challenges aren't so huge. It's really harrowing music, but there are also moments of incredible comfort and tenderness, and lyrical beauty. So far I haven't ventured beyond the first movement, I just don't know what to do with the music. I could never be a professional musician, I just feel so unable to say anything important with my playing or do justice to the music, even if the end result sounds fine in general. But sometimes, if very rarely, there are those moments when you play only for yourself and everything just _works_, somehow - that is one of the supreme joys of life!


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## Bourdon

Josquin13 said:


> Yes, the complete box set reissue by Brilliant is (& seems to go in and out of print). But the various Denon volumes didn't used to be, the last I checked. (Btw, the set was once boxed by Denon in Japan, before they licensed it to Brilliant.) RCA Red Seal also reissued Dalberto's Impromptus in a 2 CD set--as an import: https://www.casals-classical.com/pr...wanderer-fantasy-etc-rca-82876-704672-2cd-set, and more recently the Signum dal Segno label has been reissuing the Denon catalogue, including Dalberto's Impromptus (however, it looks pricey, too, so I gather it's OOP already?). It seems to me that another label is likewise currently reissuing the old Denon catalogue, but I can't recall which one...?
> 
> By the way, Denon used to be a very good label for discovering new pianists back in the 1980s & early 90s--such as Kocsis, Schiff, Ranki, Pires, Thibaudet, Rouvier, Planes, Dalberto, Afanassiev, etc. It's a pity that they don't exist anymore, because whoever was in charge of contracting young pianists for that label knew what they were doing.
> 
> I have the Philips "The Art of Brendel" Schubert box that Bourdon mentions, and one of the individual Philips CDs, too. But I prefer the AMSI remasters in the Universal Eloquence Brendel Schubert box set, even though I suppose the differences are fairly marginal: https://www.amazon.com/Brendel-Spie...keywords=brendel+spielt&qid=1579380290&sr=8-3. I'd urge you to at least listen to 2 or 3 Impromptus as played by Brendel, Lupu, Pires, & Dalberto (and Fischer)--to compare them, because the interpretations are all so different, and you may not favor Brendel's Impromptus over Lupu's, for instance.


I forgot the Eloquence edition wich is a no brainer when you look at the price.
I purchased this DVD wich was a television serie of three episodes.It is really a shame that it is so unknown.Unfortunately there are no subtitles and the spoken language is German.

*"I want to kiss the ground, penetrate ice and snow With my hot tears, Until I see the earth." ("The winter journey") The last days of Franz Schubert: "Fritz Lehner painted a picture of the composer beyond any Schubert kitsch and all the sweet clichés of musicians: he confronted the audience with a lonely, sexually ill young man who was a brilliant musician but was not particularly well equipped for life on earth. "(Jutta Zniva)" Notturno "¬- that is the title from a total of two cinema versions of the legendary three-part TV series "With my hot tears". At the director's request, this DVD shows the longer, two-part version, which Lehner believes is the last version, which was primarily intended for international festival use and has never been shown in Austria before. The titles of the two parts: "Love has song" and "Winterjourney".*










*With my hot tears is a German-Austrian television film about the life of the composer Franz Schubert. The first part was broadcast on ORF television for the first time on October 31, 1986.*


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## Allegro Con Brio

Just a (somewhat) unrelated note: I believe Schubert's Impromptu Op. 142, No. 3 to be one of the most perfect pieces of music known to mankind. Along with Mozart's Clarinet Quintet, it's the music I reach for first whenever I'm down, angry, or stressed. It has a sort of purifying affect on my mind that makes me wonder how music can be so innocent, simple, and inevitable; but still be so achingly beautiful. It's 8 minutes of unadorned bliss.


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## flamencosketches

Allegro Con Brio said:


> Just a (somewhat) unrelated note: I believe Schubert's Impromptu Op. 142, No. 3 to be one of the most perfect pieces of music known to mankind. Along with Mozart's Clarinet Quintet, it's the music I reach for first whenever I'm down, angry, or stressed. It has a sort of purifying affect on my mind that makes me wonder how music can be so innocent, simple, and inevitable; but still be so achingly beautiful. It's 8 minutes of unadorned bliss.


Wow, that's some lofty praise. I'll have to check it out again...

I ended up ordering Brendel's Philips Solo disc with the 8 impromptus. I found a copy for very cheap. Though I've been less than impressed with Brendel's Schubert in the past, I see him as such a masterful pianist when it comes to repertoire like Beethoven and Mozart that I'm willing to give his Schubert another shot. I still want to hear Kempff, Lupu, and Zimerman, argh... I will get to all of it in time.


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## Mandryka

Josquin13 said:


> I agree
> .


Yes the Debussy is good. Another one to seek out is Adam Skoumal's Schumann


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## Chatellerault

Josquin13 said:


> (...)
> 
> As for Schubert's 8 Impromptus, the two classic historical recordings are generally considered to be Edwin Fischer and Artur Schnabel's. Rudolf Serkin is worth hearing, too. After that, I've most liked the analogue recordings by Radu Lupu and Alfred Brendel's first Philips recording, which won a Penguin Rosette award (& deservedly so); as well as the digital era recordings by Maria João Pires (on Erato & DG), who's not afraid to bring out the darker, more uncomfortable elements in Schubert piano music, and Michel Dalberto. Perahia is good, too, but I don't prefer him in Schubert over Lupu, Brendel, Dalberto, or Pires. & the same is true for Zimerman, who doesn't find the emotional depth (or angst) in Schubert that both Lupu & Pires bring out, but chooses to stay more on the surface, which admittedly some listeners may feel more comfortable with & prefer. (I prefer Zimerman in Chopin & Mozart myself.) I also agree that Lupu's Schubert 8 Impromptus are among his finest recordings.


Thank you for the recommendations, I'll check them.

What about fortepiano recordings of the Impromptus? What to listen to first?

I admit I rarely like Schubert recorded on modern pianos, it happens more with this composer than with any other except perhaps Mozart's sonatas.

PS: If you have any recommendations for the Piano Trios with fortepianos, I'd be glad to read them.


----------



## Rogerx

Bourdon said:


> I forgot the Eloquence edition wich is a no brainer when you look at the price.
> I purchased this DVD wich was a television serie of three episodes.It is really a shame that it is so unknown.Unfortunately there are no subtitles and the spoken language is German.
> 
> *"I want to kiss the ground, penetrate ice and snow With my hot tears, Until I see the earth." ("The winter journey") The last days of Franz Schubert: "Fritz Lehner painted a picture of the composer beyond any Schubert kitsch and all the sweet clichés of musicians: he confronted the audience with a lonely, sexually ill young man who was a brilliant musician but was not particularly well equipped for life on earth. "(Jutta Zniva)" Notturno "¬- that is the title from a total of two cinema versions of the legendary three-part TV series "With my hot tears". At the director's request, this DVD shows the longer, two-part version, which Lehner believes is the last version, which was primarily intended for international festival use and has never been shown in Austria before. The titles of the two parts: "Love has song" and "Winterjourney".*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *With my hot tears is a German-Austrian television film about the life of the composer Franz Schubert. The first part was broadcast on ORF television for the first time on October 31, 1986.*


I ordered it once at JPC for only €7.99


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## flamencosketches

Chatellerault said:


> Thank you for the recommendations, I'll check them.
> 
> What about fortepiano recordings of the Impromptus? What to listen to first?
> 
> I admit I rarely like Schubert recorded on modern pianos, it happens more with this composer than with any other except perhaps Mozart's sonatas.
> 
> PS: If you have any recommendations for the Piano Trios with fortepianos, I'd be glad to read them.












This is an amazing recording. Jos Van Immerseel, Vera Beths, and Anner Bylsma take on the piano trios on period instruments. Definitely worthy of your time.


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## Bourdon

Rogerx said:


> I ordered it once at JPC for only €7.99


Mine is only two euros more,I hope that the DVD has a good quality,I heard some negative comments.One can also watch it on you tube but that is of very poor quality (VHS)
There are very little productions of this high standard made for television,my first choice would be "Jewel in the Crown" and this one dedicated to Schubert,it certainly deserves more attention.Why did they not add some subtitles to make it more accessible?


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## Rogerx

Bourdon said:


> Mine is only two euros more,I hope that the DVD has a good quality,I heard some negative comments.One can also watch it on you tube but that is of very poor quality (VHS)
> There are very little productions of this high standard made for television,my first choice would be "Jewel in the Crown" and this one dedicated to Schubert,it certainly deserves more attention.Why did they not add some subtitles to make it more accessible?


I vaguely remember is being not that great in contrast but that's all , will watch it soon.
As for the latter, typical German product.


----------



## flamencosketches

Who has recorded the best set of D958, D959, and D960? Key word here is set. Which pianist is most consistent across these three sonatas?


----------



## HerbertNorman

flamencosketches said:


> Who has recorded the best set of D958, D959, and D960? Key word here is set. Which pianist is most consistent across these three sonatas?


Alfred Brendel in my honest opinion , must say I was in two minds with the recording I have from Artur Schnabel...but my favourite is Brendel


----------



## Mandryka

flamencosketches said:


> Who has recorded the best set of D958, D959, and D960? Key word here is set. Which pianist is most consistent across these three sonatas?


Lonquich. This one


----------



## flamencosketches

Mandryka said:


> Lonquich. This one
> 
> View attachment 129196


Thanks, I shall check it out. I hadn't heard any Lonquich, but I realized after seeing your post that I had a few recordings of his in my library, playing Schumann on EMI. I listened to his Gesänge der Frühe this morning. He delivered a great performance of this odd work, I think.


----------



## Ras

*Schubert Impromptus*

David Fray only plays the four D. 899 Impromptus. I've only heard it once last night, but it sounded amazing. 
I'm not sure though if I should love or hate the "too good to be true" piano sound... Can a piano really sound like that?

Radu Lupu's has always been my favorite recording of Schubert's Impromptus.


----------



## Rogerx

flamencosketches said:


> Who has recorded the best set of D958, D959, and D960? Key word here is set. Which pianist is most consistent across these three sonatas?


If you still interested, here is the Sony number from a double Perahia disc.

5099708770624


----------



## flamencosketches

Rogerx said:


> If you still interested, here is the Sony number from a double Perahia disc.
> 
> 5099708770624


I was looking at that one. It does look great, I'll have to sample it some.


----------



## 89Koechel

Brendel is still a favorite of many, for good reasons. Don't forget Richard Goode (despite some limitations), and Sviatoslav Richter, in D. 958 & D. 960. Overall, though, it's still .... Schnabel!


----------



## Josquin13

Chatellerault said:


> Thank you for the recommendations, I'll check them.
> 
> What about fortepiano recordings of the Impromptus? What to listen to first?
> 
> I admit I rarely like Schubert recorded on modern pianos, it happens more with this composer than with any other except perhaps Mozart's sonatas.
> 
> PS: If you have any recommendations for the Piano Trios with fortepianos, I'd be glad to read them.


Chatellerrault, I'd be happy to make some recommendations,

Regarding the Impromptus played on a fortepiano, I can't recommend a 1st or 2nd choice, but I can steer you towards a handful of fortepiano recordings that are worth sampling and reading reviews for, in order to decide which you may like (as I expect some of the choice will inevitably come down to which fortepiano you respond most favorably to, considering that some fortepianos are more weathered by age than others...), among the following pianists: Andras Schiff (on ECM, but not his earlier Decca recording, where he played a modern piano), Alexei Lubimov, Jan Vermeulen, Andreas Staier, and Paul Badura-Skoda (on Astrée initially, but later re-released by Arcana in a box set), who, like Schiff, has also recorded the Impromptus on both a fortepiano and modern piano.

Lubimov: 



Vermeulen: 



Schiff: Schiff's recording is posted on You Tube, but not available in the US: https://www.amazon.com/Schubert-Son...rds=schubert+schiff+ecm&qid=1579552213&sr=8-1
Staier: 



Badura-Skoda:








etc.

Melvyn Tan and Lambert Orkis have also recorded the Impromptus on a fortepiano, but I don't know their recordings.

As for recommended period recordings of the piano trios, I'd suggest that you sample those by the following four period ensembles: (1) La Gaia Scienza, on the Winter & Winter label, and (2) the Mozartean Players (a favorite group of mine), on Harmonia Mundi--these are probably my two top picks; as well as (3) the Beths-Immerseel-Bylsma trio on Sony Vivarte, and (4) the Vermeulen-Busch-Springuel trio, on Etcetera, who are excellent, too. Jan Vermeulen has the advantage of playing on an original Nannette Streicher fortepiano from 1826, which is very rare to hear in Schubert, and I find it particularly fascinating in the piano trios (see link below).

--La Gaia Scienza: 




https://www.amazon.com/Complete-Pia...+gaia+s cienza&qid=1579551096&s=music&sr=1-1

--Mozartean Players: 




Here are the bargain reissues of these recordings:
https://www.amazon.com/Schubert-Pia...rtean +players&qid=1579551144&s=music&sr=1-2
https://www.amazon.com/Piano-Trio-N...rtean +players&qid=1579551144&s=music&sr=1-5

And links to the original HM releases:
https://www.amazon.com/Schubert-Not...rtean +players&qid=1579551144&s=music&sr=1-3
https://www.amazon.com/Schubert-Pia...rtean +players&qid=1579551144&s=music&sr=1-1

--Beths-Immerseel-Bylsma:
https://www.amazon.com/Schubert-Pia...trios+immerseel&qid=1579551043&s=music&sr=1-2
https://www.amazon.com/Schubert-Cha...no+trios+bylsma&qid=1579550732&s=music&sr=1-1

--Vermeulen-Busch-Springuel: 




https://www.amazon.com/Complete-For...r meulen&qid=1579551315&s=music&sr=8-1-fkmr1

Plus, I see that Krystian Bezuidenhout, Viktoria Mullova, & Pieter Wispelway have been playing Schubert's Op. 100 in concert: 



, so a recording may follow...

Hope that helps.

Bourdon,

Thanks for the recommendation of the Schubert film biography, Notturno. I'll definitely watch it. For those that are interested in seeing the film, it has been posted on You Tube, but doesn't have English subtitles, as pointed out:










Apparently, the DVD release is in mono, but the original 3 part release is in stereo, according to the poster on You Tube. So the following links may be preferable to my above links, though I'm not certain of that...?:

Parts 1, 2, 3: 




Other notable Schubert pianists that I neglected to mention in my previous post are Vladimir Ashkenazy, whose Schubert tends to get underrated, IMO (especially his Wanderer Fantasie, and D. 960), Wilhelm Kempff, Ingrid Haebler, Paul Badura-Skoda, Mitsuko Uchida, and Andras Schiff, who are all highly regarded for their Schubert playing.

Kempff: https://www.prestomusic.com/classical/products/7945848--wilhelm-kempff-plays-schubert
Haebler: https://www.prestomusic.com/classical/products/8033378--schubert-piano-sonatas-impromptus#tracklist
Ashkenazy, Wanderer Fantasie: 



Ashkenazy, D. 960: 




I'd also imagine that David Fray, who Ras mentions, is exceptional in the Impromptus, too, but I haven't heard his recording. Fray is one of my favorite pianists today (check out his Bach solo piano concerti on Virgin).

As for pianists that have recorded Schubert's last three piano sonatas as a "set", a number come to mind (though I've not heard Lonquich): Maurizio Pollini recorded them for DG, with D. 945, as a set (along with the Wanderer-Fantasie & D. 845, on separate albums). With Pollini, you get the usual perfection of note playing, and it's dazzling, but he doesn't offer the most penetrating interpretations of the music, in my opinion. As a result, I've liked his Schubert less with continued listening. Plus, Pollini tends to have a heavy piano touch for Schubert, which I don't care for.






There's also a Decca 2 for 1 discount set from Andras Schiff, which is good too, but again, not a top favorite of mine.

Which leaves three excellent sets: which I've liked in the following order: (1) Alfred Brendel's first Philips recordings--IMO, Brendel is at his best in D. 959 & 958, (2) Murray Perahia, on Sony--I'm not quite as keen on Perahia's Schubert as others, but it is very good, and (3) Claudio Arrau on Philips, who some have found rather ponderous & heavy in Schubert.

Jed Distler, at Classics today likes Leif Ove Andsnes' set on EMI, but I don't entirely agree, though I admit Andsnes is good in D. 960:





https://www.amazon.com/Schubert-Lat...ndsnes+schubert&qid=1579548578&s=music&sr=1-2.

There's also Paul Lewis's recording on Harmonia Mundi, which I've not heard.

Lastly, there's Valery Afanassiev on Denon. Generally, I have a high regard for Afanassiev's Schubert playing, but he can slow down more than is usual, and his deeply introspective interpretations won't be for everyone, especially those that see Schubert's music more in a more classical, lyrical vein, rather than in a romantic style, foreshadowing the piano works of Liszt: https://www.amazon.com/Schubert-Lat...fanassiev+denon&qid=1579634432&s=music&sr=1-1.

Critic Leslie Gerber writes,

"If you know your late Schubert piano sonatas, you can tell right away that there is something unusual about this set just by looking at the timings on the back of the box. No. 20 is split between the two discs, which is necessary because the set runs to almost 150 minutes. Reading Afanassiev's bizarre program notes, which frequently refer to his own literary works, further prepares you for these outrageous performances, in which nearly every movement is played more slowly than you've ever heard before. Afanassiev obviously has his own viewpoint on Schubert's music, which seems to be that it is neurotically introspective and that the lyrical qualities don't count for much. Few listeners will agree."

I agree that these are challenging performances, but I wouldn't be so dismissive of them.

Yet I have preferred Afanassiev's remarkable ECM Schubert D. 960 to his earlier Denon recording, and would strongly recommend it, as an alternative view of this music: https://www.amazon.com/Schubert-Pia...+afanassiev+ecm&qid=1579634750&s=music&sr=1-1

While not a set, I've also recently gotten to know Maria João Pires' DG recording of D. 960 and D. 845 and thought it was very special: https://www.amazon.com/Schubert-Pia...ds=schubert+maria+pires&qid=1579551953&sr=8-3. This is the finest Schubert piano CD I've heard over the past decade. & I don't think the critics appreciated her recording enough when it came out. Pires' 1980s Erato D. 960 is excellent, too, and there are interesting differences between her two interpretations.

Nor--seconding 89Koechel's post--would I want to be without Sviatoslav Richter's D. 958 & D. 960 on Eurodisc, and Schnabel's historical recordings. I'd also place Lazar Berman's D. 960 in their same league: 



. IMO, you could do worse than Richter's D. 958, Brendel's 1st Philips D. 959, and Schnabel, Berman, Pires DG (or Ashkenazy, or Richter), and Afanassiev ECM in D. 960.

So many fine pianists, so many choices...


----------



## flamencosketches

^I'll be exploring some of Vlad Ashkenazy's Schubert recordings on your good word, on the general excellency of Russian pianists in Schubert's great music, and in honor of his recent retirement.

...



> So many fine pianists, so many choices...


... indeed. I am still processing Richter, Uchida, Schnabel, and a more recent acquisition, Marta Deyanova, in various late Schubert sonatas. I am still curious to obtain a set of the three to see what a pianist can do with the trilogy as a cycle (as opposed to interpretations of individual sonatas). Perahia and Brendel seem to be the front runners here, frankly as much as I love Arrau, I would question his chops in Schubert.

Did Richter ever record D959?


----------



## Allegro Con Brio

Allegro Con Brio said:


> Lupu is indeed quite interesting, but I think he sort of lingers too much over these pieces in order to make them more "profound" than they are. I quite like what he does in his Brahms album, but that style isn't as convincing for me in Schubert. I like to hear Schubert played in a classical, balanced way that brings out the music's inherent radiant beauty. Have you heard Krystian Zimerman in anything before? He's one of my favorite pianists, but not everyone appreciates his playing because it can be so fussy and perfectionist. Every last detail of his interpretations is planned to the T. He's worth hearing in the Impromptus to see if he floats your boat or not (though my favorite work of his is his Debussy Preludes, Chopin Ballades, and Liszt Sonata; which I consider definitive readings of those works). Otherwise Brendel is my favorite "safe" pick for the Impromptus- I find him more convincing in these miniatures than in the sonatas where structure is more important.


I heard Lupu's Impromptus today and must say I've had a change of opinion. What I formerly viewed as "lingering in order to make them more profound than they are" I now see as a loving, scouring journey into the soul of Schubert, bringing out every last juicy morsel of goodness. There's still some questionable rubato, etc. at times but overall I must say this is, as of right now, my favorite Impromptus recording. I must admit that Schubert may not be Zimerman's strong suit, he's just too prim and proper for his own good in this music.

Flamencosketches, if you're still questing for a recording of the last three sonatas, I'd still recommend Kempff. He doesn't seem to be too popular here, but I really can't get enough of him. Brendel's playing in the sonatas I hear as uncreative. Schubert can come off sounding monotonous and repetitive if played without some imagination, and I don't find Brendel varies his touch and manner of phrasing enough to pull it off convincingly. Interestingly enough, I indeed don't think that Richter recorded D959- a real shame. However, if you're in search of a great compilation of truly wonderful playing, check this out if you don't already have it: https://www.amazon.com/Richter-Plays-Schubert-Live-Moscow/dp/B074511WM8. It has 11 sonatas, the Wanderer Fantasy, Impromptus, 3 Klavierstucke, other miniatures, some lieder, and an interesting recording of the D813 Variations for four hands with Benjamin Britten. Richter has, far and away, the most "musically profound" Schubert, and I very much enjoy hearing him when I'm in the mood. I would like to hear Uchida and Volodos as well- though I love Richter, I like hearing Schubert played classically like Mozart, and that's definitely the type of thing that Uchida specializes in.


----------



## 89Koechel

Josquin13 - Thanks for an EXCEPTIONAL post (from 16:31, today)!! You've mentioned many strengths, and weaknesses (such as the much-lauded Pollini, from the past). There are so-MANY who've tried and succeeded, and/or failed, in the past ... and we could probably expect somewhat-much of the same in the future. Some of Schubert's Sonatas require an encompassing of their length, but WITH a certain delicate touch, alongside of a delineation of their structure. The genius simply (it seems) spun these Sonatas OUT of his inspiration, and it's sure that it's a bit-difficult (these days or in the past) to CAPTURE all of the elements and transitions, into an interpretation that isn't stilted, nor overly-accented, etc. Thanks for mentioning someone who MIGHT be somewhat-forgotten, in the future - Schnabel. Certainly, there IS a tendency to forget the great musicians/composers of the past, as time wears on. Thanks, also, for mentioning musicians who specialize in "period instruments"; I've been looking for such recommendations, for a long time! .... Well, finally, if we could mention the Piano Trio, Op. 99 ... maybe a mention of Heifetz/Feuermann/Rubinstein might be in-ORDER, so to speak ... alongside of your and/or others' recommendations. All 3 of these fellows were at the TOP of their game, so to speak, and it's still a lamentable loss, that Feuermann died, so young, afterwards.


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## HerbertNorman

Josquin13 - Thanks for the valuable information! I will be checking this out soon !
I 've got Ashkenazy's recordings of the Russian composers such as Scriabin, Prokofiev, Shostakovich and Rachmaninoff ... but I've not listened to him playing the Germanic composers intensively...something I will be doing now ;-)
I don't know Maria João Pires that well ... I'm still "young"... thanks for the tips!


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## flamencosketches

Happy birthday to the master. What are we listening to today?

For me I've listened so far to the Wanderer Fantasy and the 9th symphony. When this ends I am thinking of putting on one of the piano sonatas or perhaps a song cycle.


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## Rogerx

Symphonies 8 and 9 / Fierrabras and later Schubert: Winterreise D911. :cheers:


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## flamencosketches

I listened to about half of Winterreise before work. I ought to finish it later.


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## HerbertNorman

I listened to "Die Schöne Müllerin" , sung by Dietrich Fischer-Dieskau , Gerald Moore , DG ... and naturally ... D.960 played by Radu Lupu , as some on this forum had recommended him ... I have to say I was quite impressed


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## KenOC

Schumann found the score of the Great C-major Symphony in a closet of Schubert's brother Ferdinand in 1838 and borrowed it. He passed it on to Mendelssohn, who performed it with the Leipzig Gewandhaus Orchestra in 1839. Robert wrote Clara:

"Today I have been in seventh heaven. If only you had been there! For I cannot describe it to you; all the instruments were like human voices, and immensely full of life and wit… and the length, the divine length, like a four-volume novel… I was utterly happy, with nothing left to wish for except that you were my wife and I could write such symphonies myself!"


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## flamencosketches

KenOC said:


> Schumann found the score of the Great C-major Symphony in a closet of Schubert's brother Ferdinand in 1838 and borrowed it. He passed it on to Mendelssohn, who performed it with the Leipzig Gewandhaus Orchestra in 1839. Robert wrote Clara:
> 
> "Today I have been in seventh heaven. If only you had been there! For I cannot describe it to you; all the instruments were like human voices, and immensely full of life and wit… and the length, the *divine length*, like a four-volume novel… I was utterly happy, with nothing left to wish for except that you were my wife and I could write such symphonies myself!"


Why was I thinking Wagner had coined this phrase...?


----------



## KenOC

flamencosketches said:


> Why was I thinking Wagner had coined this phrase...?


I think Wagner was that "slender Norse maiden" guy. :lol:


----------



## JoachimBlas26

I feel that the music of Schubert has an espectral aura, like if he knew that the dead was coming soon and he reflects that in the music, it gives me the feeling of an agonizing serenity. And he combines that serenity with the freshness of the youth. I think there's a stereotype that Schubert was a great melodist, but nothing more. Krenek pointed to the piano sonatas as giving "ample evidence that [Schubert] was much more than an easy-going tune-smith who did not know, and did not care, about the craft of composition." Each sonata then in print, according to Krenek, exhibited "a great wealth of technical finesse" and revealed Schubert as "far from satisfied with pouring his charming ideas into conventional moulds; on the contrary he was a thinking artist with a keen appetite for experimentation."

In my opinion the best composer after JSB, Mozart and Beethoven, maybe with Brahms.


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## golfer72

I count Schubert as one of my favorite composers for solo piano. Especially the sonatas. Dont listen to much of his orchestral or chamber works


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## JackRance

Gretchen am spinnrade
*BEST LIED EVER!!!*


----------



## Musicaterina

My favourite pieces of Schubert are the string quartets and above all the string quintet which is, in my opinion, the best string quintet written for a string quintet with two cellos by a German-speaking composer.


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## SixFootScowl

I got into Winterreise a couple years ago when I saw Joyce DiDonato sing it live. Just a few months ago I got into the symphonies. Wonderful music!


----------



## SixFootScowl

What say folks? Should I get a mod to take this whole segment on Winterreise and move it to a Winterreise thread?


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## Open Book

SixFootScowl said:


> What say folks? Should I get a mod to take this whole segment on Winterreise and move it to a Winterreise thread?


I don't mind.

...


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## SixFootScowl

Open Book said:


> I don't mind.
> 
> ...


Request submitted.


----------



## mmsbls

SixFootScowl said:


> Request submitted.


I have started a new thread on this question and moved relevant posts to that thread. Anyone interested in further discussing female voice for Winterreise is encouraged to continue the discussion there.


----------



## Rogerx

JackRance said:


> Gretchen am spinnrade
> *BEST LIED EVER!!!*


In your humble opinion I see.

Give me : Standchen D920 by the The Elizabethan Singers any day of the week.


----------



## Rogerx

However I cam to promote this :



Franz Schubert: With my hot tears

Only in German but a great movie/ documentary nevertheless .


----------



## hammeredklavier

Rogerx said:


> Franz Schubert: With my hot tears
> Only in German but a great movie/ documentary nevertheless .


also;


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## HerbertNorman

Rogerx said:


> However I cam to promote this :
> 
> 
> 
> Franz Schubert: With my hot tears
> 
> Only in German but a great movie/ documentary nevertheless .


Thanks for this tip ! I studied German, so no probs there


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## Rogerx

HerbertNorman said:


> Thanks for this tip ! I studied German, so no probs there


My pleasure, it's for sale at JPC.de and they have free shipping until Sunday evening.


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## Oortone

Rogerx said:


> However I cam to promote this :
> 
> ...
> 
> Franz Schubert: With my hot tears
> 
> Only in German but a great movie/ documentary nevertheless .


Doesn't look like it has any subtitles, that's a pity. So the movie is from '86 originally?
I have a vague recollection of a Schubert documentery series on Swedish television a long time ago. Might have been this one. But I didn't see it then.


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## Rogerx

Oortone said:


> Doesn't look like it has any subtitles, that's a pity. So the movie is from '86 originally?
> I have a vague recollection of a Schubert documentary series on Swedish television a long time ago. Might have been this one. But I didn't see it then.


No it has no subtitles and yes it's from '86 originally.



> Reviews
> "It is not a biography that is to be offered here, but a picture of the unhappy person Franz Schubert and a correcting of the wrong concept of a cozy Biedermeier." (Arbeiter-Zeitung: Vienna, October 31, 1986)


----------



## 89Koechel

Thanks, Rogerx and others, for finding and discussing this video. Well, I guess you guys are familiar-with another video from a LONG time ago (it's on YouTube) - Richard Tauber/tenor ... dressed as Schubert, singing the Schubert Serenade, from 1933. There's even a colorized (as well as black-and-white) version, there! The colorized version has better sonics/sound, also, without the distortions on the other upload. Tauber was truly "sui generis" - thanks again.


----------



## Mandryka

89Koechel said:


> Thanks, Rogerx and others, for finding and discussing this video. Well, I guess you guys are familiar-with another video from a LONG time ago (it's on YouTube) - Richard Tauber/tenor ... dressed as Schubert, singing the Schubert Serenade, from 1933. There's even a colorized (as well as black-and-white) version, there! The colorized version has better sonics/sound, also, without the distortions on the other upload. Tauber was truly "sui generis" - thanks again.







I think this one is kitsch, like Liberace. The way he keeps looking at the camera, the way he keeps raising his eyebrows and shaking his head and shoulders.


----------



## golfer72

JoachimBlas26 said:


> I feel that the music of Schubert has an espectral aura, like if he knew that the dead was coming soon and he reflects that in the music, it gives me the feeling of an agonizing serenity. And he combines that serenity with the freshness of the youth. I think there's a stereotype that Schubert was a great melodist, but nothing more. Krenek pointed to the piano sonatas as giving "ample evidence that [Schubert] was much more than an easy-going tune-smith who did not know, and did not care, about the craft of composition." Each sonata then in print, according to Krenek, exhibited "a great wealth of technical finesse" and revealed Schubert as "far from satisfied with pouring his charming ideas into conventional moulds; on the contrary he was a thinking artist with a keen appetite for experimentation."
> 
> In my opinion the best composer after JSB, Mozart and Beethoven, maybe with Brahms.


I just listened to the D894 Sonata yesterday. What an amazing work. 40 minutes and just chock full of interesting ideas. Its like a wellspring that keeps on giving.


----------



## Guest

hammeredklavier said:


> also;


This looks tawdry. And hagiographic. And, oh so politely spoken in English!!!! "My name is Schober; Frans von Schober". Spot the luminary!!

It's cheap making films about great composers, *whose music was always far more interesting than their lives*. The prurient fascination with Schubert's STD and possible bi-sexuality is very strange, to say the least of it, in an age when absolutely anything and everything goes.


----------



## Animal the Drummer

www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rfo61QYhTc8


----------



## Forster

Recommendations for a symphony boxed set, please?


----------



## Rogerx

*31-01- 1797 Franz Schubert, Austrian composer*




Franz Peter Schubert (German: 31 January 1797 - 19 November 1828)
was an Austrian composer of the late Classical period .


----------



## Rogerx

Forster said:


> Recommendations for a symphony boxed set, please?


There are plenty for sale. I am spimming Muti now , good buy, thers is the Claudio Abbado set / Otto Klemperer/
Günter Wand . That's is four to dive in, good luck .


----------



## Forster

^ Thanks - I went for the Abbado.


----------



## Merl

Forster said:


> Recommendations for a symphony boxed set, please?


Manacorda, Dausgaard, Zender, Menuhin (both), Blomstedt, Muti, Harnoncourt (both), Bruggen, Immerseel, Marriner..... Basically most apart from Barenboim's dull, stiff cycle and Goodman's poorly played effort.


----------



## Enthusiast

In addition to the above, the Kertesz set has excellent accounts of the two mature works and also has really good accounts of the earlier symphonies. Beecham's classic recordings of 3 and 5 should not be missed.


----------



## perempe

Is the opening theme of his 9th symphony a march?


----------



## Kreisler jr

I assume you mean the horn melody of the introduction? Not really, it's been called walking or even hiking (Wanderthema, wandern). And the main theme of the fast section is a bit too fast for a typical march, I'd say. The (not so) slow movement's main theme has more (moderate/slow) marching character.

If one listens to the famous military march (4 hand piano), it's not entirely different, but dissimilar enough, I think.


----------



## Stringitup

*The interesting music scene in the Vienna of Shubert's time.*

I once owned this wonderful recording. 



 of Die schöne Müllerin

The very nature of this seminal song cycle begs the notion, as I am certain all who cannot play the instrument will contest, that at least Shubert's guitar playing publisher had a hand in influencing the work. Certainly Shubert did not "crib" anything and Diabelli most likely was delighted when Shubert died at an early age as most music publishers are even to this day.

Indeed Shubert did own guitars, whether or not Diabelli gifted them or if Shubert actually played them is immaterial. The point is that at the time the guitar was considered a far better instrument to accompany the human voice than the piano. And for a very good reason, hauling around pianos to a soiree ain't exactly easy even today. Most likely Diabelli helped Shubert with these songs for his publishing house wealthy music publication and soiree subscription clientele. Only the most wealthy had the new fangled pianos but just about every household with a music room had guitars.

How easily we forget that things were different back then and Shubert was writing music as bread and butter. Even if the great Beethoven had dismissed the guitar as being a salon only instrument the influence of guitaristic wide spaced harmonies pervades most of the music of the period especially Die su. 
Then as pianos became cheap commodity items the piano dominated music teaching and composition and accompaniment for singers as a result classical song writing went into a decline.

At the time the greatest influence in salon music was a fellow by the name of Mauro Giuliani, perhaps the greatest guitar composer and performer in history. His technique and influence was extensive and I have little doubt that he met Shubert at one time and influenced some of Shubert's choices in wide spaced chord melodies for song accompaniments. Indeed the genius of Shubert was to find melody in every nook and cranny of a poem much more so than any other composer.

In conclusion it matters not whether Shubert actually used the guitar to compose anything, what does matter is that without the influence of a portable stringed instrument much of what Shubert conceived would have sounded pianistic not guitaristic. In the later works of Giuliani we again hear the influence of Shubert like harmony as well as the orchestral beauty of Rossini.

Shubert's publisher Diabelli was influenced heavily by Giuliani as was the entire Vienna music scene of the day. Diabelli convinced Giuliani to simplify his composition and even wrote simplified versions of both Shubert and other musicians pieces for subscription based sheet music sales.


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## SanAntone

> Diabelli most likely was delighted when Shubert died at an early age as most music publishers are even to this day.


 I stopped reading at this point ....


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## Mandryka

In the booklet Michael Struck-Schloen says that this is a new adaptation for guitar, made by Ragossnig and John Duarte. He suggests that existing reductions compromised the expressiveness of the music. He comments that the benefit of guitar is that it is both intimate and colourful, though whether it is a more apt instrument than a fortepiano is, IMO, debatable.


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## Mandryka

And listening to it I want to say how well Schreier had got to grips with this particular song cycle!


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## Stringitup

*Sorry you stopped reading*



SanAntone said:


> I stopped reading at this point ....


Yes I was indeed being a little snide in my assessment of the house of Diabelli. Certainly if it were not for the publishing industry in Vienna, the music of Shubert would not have existed in the first place or been passed down to us as we know it and Shubert would have faded into history as have a great many composers. Ask Beethoven about music publishers of the time though if you find it hard to believe that they were at times less than honorable in what they published. He had a very famous run in with the largest one of the time. But then again would anyone want to be the landlord with Beethoven as a tenant even in this day and age?

My point was that the lowly guitar made it possible for a great many up and coming less well off musicians to learn to read music at that time in history. And there is a world of songs published with guitar accompaniment from that period, some of which are very much worthy of today's bell canto singers who have voices that can sound wonderful in a salon setting with less powerful instruments in accompaniment.

What Diabelli thought about the passing of the greatest song writer in the history of Vienna is not the point, the fact that he published and encouraged Shubert and was a fairly good guitarist is just a fact of history. BTW Paganini was no slouch on the guitar even though he did not write that well for the instrument.

The work that John Duarte and Conrad Ragossnig did to adapt Shubert to guitar and voice will never be as important as the original piano and voice score. But in some of the Lieder particularly where the melody is doubled in the accompaniment like it is in Tränenregen, the work turns out to be a wonderful guitar solo that can be played by a guitarist with very little of the piano notes lost at all. It is one piece that I cannot put down when I pick it up and put it on my music stand.

Such is the magic of the harmonies and lyricism of Shubert. To me that is the only important factor in great music of any kind.


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## Stringitup

Mandryka said:


> In the booklet Michael Struck-Schloen says that this is a new adaptation for guitar, made by Ragossnig and John Duarte. He suggests that existing reductions compromised the expressiveness of the music. He comments that the benefit of guitar is that it is both intimate and colourful, though whether it is a more apt instrument than a fortepiano is, IMO, debatable.


Indeed John Duarte tried to be as faithful as possible to the original scores. Whereas the reductions done for guitar in the time of Shubert and after his death tended to be publications on subscription to less than apt guitarists and singers and even piano reductions for the masses of salon pianos of the period after the heyday of salon music in Vienna. 
Diabelli and his associates had to make some money to pay the music type setters and paper cost after all. Things are not that different in the few publishing houses left printing music today. Cheap anthologies that obscure and simplify the originals abound.


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## Stringitup

Mandryka said:


> And listening to it I want to say how well Schreier had got to grips with this particular song cycle!


Peter was great he always found a way to express a melody with clarity and depth. I wore out my recording in less than two months when I bought the original pressing of him singing with a great guitar version of this work in the background. Wish I could have heard it live though!


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## Forster

Merl said:


> Manacorda, Dausgaard, Zender, Menuhin (both), Blomstedt, Muti, Harnoncourt (both), Bruggen, Immerseel, Marriner..... Basically most apart from Barenboim's dull, stiff cycle and Goodman's poorly played effort.


I went for Abbado in the end.


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## Wigmar

ChamberNut said:


> What a talent!  Dies at age of 31, yet he leaves over 1,000 works.
> 
> The last year of his life showed the growth and maturity of a composer who had no where to go but straight up to the highest stratosphere of excellence.
> 
> Unfortunately didn't leave more orchestral works, but Schubert left alot of masterpieces in the chamber repertoire, his solo piano pieces and of course, his lieder.


As to Lieder, in classical singing lessons I have worked with some of them, the following ones are among my favourites:
'An die Musik' D 547
'An Silvia' D 891
'Im Frühling' D 686
'Der Jüngling an der Quelle' D 300
'Der Wanderer an den Mond' D 870
'Das Zügenglöcklein' D 871
'Die Sterne' D 939


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