# Muzio Clementi



## Nix

Thought the guy deserved his own thread. After all, this is the man who wrote the theme to _Marriage of Figaro_ Overture before Mozart did (Mozart would later bash Clementi's compositional talents). Not to mention that just about every beginner pianist learns at least one of his sonatinas.

So thoughts, opinions, favorite works?


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## ScipioAfricanus

I think it was the main theme of the Magic Flute Overture not Marriage of Figaro.
Clementi's preciousness lies in him being the basis for the post-mozart Beethoven.


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## Nix

ScipioAfricanus said:


> I think it was the main theme of the Magic Flute Overture not Marriage of Figaro.


Sorry, right you are.


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## hocket

I saw his gravestone in the cloisters of Westminster Abbey a few weeks ago.


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## beetzart

Hi, being a pianist I have found quite a pleasure in playing this chaps piano sonatas and sonatinas. I wondered what others thought of his works. They are deceptively difficult (for me anyway), but quite satisfying, although not as profound as Beethoven's.


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## Rasa

I played a sonata in G by him. It was less then stimulating to learn, but in the end... well I guess anything you play yourself becomes automatically interesting.

It was a good technical exercise, but the lack of thorough development, lack of great "moments" puts it below par with a Haydn sonata.


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## Delicious Manager

He wrote four very creditable symphonies which are quite Beethovenian in nature.


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## Rasa

Hmm, it does sound like Beethoven.
Maybe it's the orchestral colour that is similar to many of Beethoven's passages?

Really enjoying the 5th movement


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## Vaneyes

For some reason, Mozart couldn't stand this guy. I'm lukewarm, even with recordings from Horowitz, Demidenko, and Michelangeli.


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## Nix

F# sharp minor piano sonata is pretty awesome.


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## beetzart

Yeah, at face value he is just average but when you work through some of his sonatas there is some appeal there. Some nice touches, modulations, and some development sections are quite pleasing to play.


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## clavichorder

I apologize if there is already a Clementi thread.

A highly prolific composer, and consistently of high quality. He was the Haydn of the piano sonata. He out live Beethoven. There is a fusion of romanticism, classicism, and baroque in his late compositions that makes them true masterpieces.

Didonne Abandonata, his magnum opus sonata










He also wrote a few fantastic symphonies. Four late ones and two early ones. My favorites are the last of the late and the second of the early.

Another favorite sonata





He could really get down with the piano.

Any other clementi lovers or people interested in getting to know more other than the sonatinas out there?


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## Vaneyes

Supposedly, Mozart disliked Clementi. I've enjoyed some of his piano works played by Demidenko, Horowitz, and Michelangeli. I thought his symphonies were forgettable.


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## clavichorder

Vaneyes said:


> Supposedly, Mozart disliked Clementi. I've enjoyed some of his piano works played by Demidenko, Horowitz, and Michelangeli. I thought his symphonies were forgettable.


The most overrated Clementi sonata is the B flat one that everyone plays, its alright, but people need to stop focusing on that one. Now the F sharp minor, op 25, that's a work of art.

For a skeptic such as yourself, I'd recommend symphony op 18 no. 2 in D major. This symphony really has a punch to it. The later symphonies are highly contrapuntal, and somewhat academic in spots, and grander, but they are far better than what other composers of the time were doing and are truly unique, they deserve to be studied at the very least. The man knew what he was doing very well.

As for Mozart disliking Clementi, Chopin had little respect the music of Schumann, and Tchaikovksy little for Brahms. Mozart was particularly critical of Clementi's piano performance technique, since Clementi was the greatest virtuoso of the time in raw technique, but Mozart attacked him for a lack of musicality. He was originally a harpsichordist, whereas Mozart learned on a clavichord so it makes sense that he would be critical of a lack of sensitivity. But did you know that the theme from the B flat sonata of Clementi's was used later by Mozart in the overture to the Magic Flute? I always find that funny. Plus Mozart hated all Italians.


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## HarpsichordConcerto

clavichorder said:


> Plus Mozart hated all Italians.


Can you qualify that a little, please?

The record label _Brilliant Classics_ (i.e. budget priced) has been releasing a project of Clementi's complete piano sonatas played by Costantino Mastroprimiano on fortepiano, if anyone is interested to know.


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## Il_Penseroso

I've practiced some etudes from Gradus ad Parnassum and have found them more valuable than many other methods. I think it's still one of the best ways - for even professional pianists - to improve technique correctly. But not only for technical matters, I like Clementi's piano music even in his short and easy Sonatinas. Besides, I think there is not so important that Mozart didn't like Clementi or Debussy didn't like Beethoven and so on ... It's the Music and only the Music that is important, if it's a masterpiece or worthwhile, whether the composer is Mozart or Clementi, Beethoven or Debussy ...


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## KJohnson

Vaneyes said:


> Supposedly, Mozart disliked Clementi. I've enjoyed some of his piano works played by Demidenko, Horowitz, and Michelangeli. I thought his symphonies were forgettable.


 Michelangeli's recordings are really delightful! I agree.


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## clavichorder

Just listen to Clementi. Who cares what Mozart thought. Give him half the attention you give a modern composer and you'll get into him for sure. 

I'm going to get tired of arguing with people on here really fast, just listen to my links and try to ignore how annoying I am. Tell me what you think of the Clementi links I've provided if you would be so kind. And if they grab you just a little, keep listening to more Clementi and you'll get the Clementi bug just you can with any other great composer.


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## clavichorder

I suggest playing Clementi yourself. Get a book of sonatas.


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## clavichorder

Additionally, there is a channel with reliable recordings on youtube by Howard Shelley. The channel is something like Magicdondino. 

I'm curious about this Michelangeli recording, because I think Demidenko makes a virtuosic circus out of them and plays too fast and watery. Many of the works are like Beethoven condensed, with elements of Scarlatti, and generic classicism, thus there is more musically going on and they need to be played at a slower tempo with more drama and punch, less flower pianism. Horrowitz is often too sloppy with them.


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## haydnfan

clavichorder said:


> Plus Mozart hated all Italians.


That was just in the movie!  I like Clementi's piano works alright, but still prefer Haydn , Mozart, and Beethoven. But hey it's good to sometimes to listen to the lesser known composers.


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## clavichorder

A little bit watery and over technical 



, and an more routine early sonata. I suppose I'll check out the CD. He sounds great on the fortepiano but these recordings on youtube are not my favorite, fortepiano has so much capability for speed punch and these are a little too careful 



 that one is the same as my early one.


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## clavichorder

haydnfan said:


> That was just in the movie!  I like Clementi's piano works alright, but still prefer Haydn , Mozart, and Beethoven. But hey it's good to sometimes to listen to the lesser known composers.


See I want people to get it through their head that he deserves to be more than a lesser known composer. But I'm probably fighting a battle I can't win.


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## Nix

Mozart may have not liked Clementi but Beethoven did. In fact Beethoven preferred the piano works of Clementi to those of Mozart.


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## clavichorder

The one Clementi symphony I like the most is not on youtube. Email me if you would like a free recording, because this one is great. Its op 18 number 2 in D major, written in the 1780s. The first one of op 18 I'll admit, sounds like a fortepiano composer wrote it with the bass in the strings and it is a bit less accomplished. The later ones are so strange in that they are chalked full of counterpoint. This minuet is pretty interesting


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## clavichorder

He wrote those later ones in London. The english in their typically interesting choice of language, commending him for his "science" in these symphonies. I assume they were referring to all the counterpoint.


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## Romantic Geek

clavichorder said:


> I apologize if there is already a Clementi thread.
> 
> A highly prolific composer, and *consistently of high quality*. He was the Haydn of the piano sonata. He out live Beethoven. There is a fusion of romanticism, classicism, and baroque in his late compositions that makes them true masterpieces.
> 
> Didonne Abandonata, his magnum opus sonata
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> He also wrote a few fantastic symphonies. Four late ones and two early ones. My favorites are the last of the late and the second of the early.
> 
> Another favorite sonata
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> He could really get down with the piano.
> 
> Any other clementi lovers or people interested in getting to know more other than the sonatinas out there?


I would highly argue against this. Clementi was a composer of convention. He was great at that - but he's clearly second rate to Haydn, Mozart, and Beethoven.


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## clavichorder

I can see why this would seem controversial to some, to bracket Clementi with the three Viennese masters. But here is my long winded argument against fixation on these composers that attempts to give Clementi his due.

I find that his works were far more virtuosic and his themes more melodious and subtly developed than "generic" contemporaries. Listen to the F sharp minor sonata I've linked, this was written in the 1780s and the finale that I've linked has a development section that really goes a long ways off the home key and finds its way back. If you can find good recordings of the first and second movements, you may find them to be quite unconventional. I would go so far as to say they were brilliant gems for their time.

You can hear Clementi's influence on the virtuosic and atypical accompaniment style in Beethoven, this accompaniment that is often a little more subtle than an Alberti bass and the like found in Mozart and Haydn a little more frequently and the virtuosity are a few of the things that made him the father of the fortepiano. The later works of his reveal him to be a master of counterpoint, as you find canons all over his work. He is an interesting composer like Haydn, because his career lasts so long and assimilates so many new things over its duration. He starts of strong and ends off strong and different. I'll admit that his later symphonies that were never published, but only performed in London, are very formal and academic in some ways, but are not without their strong points. He has better works than those, and I particularly recommend the late sonatas around op 50 and there are certain standouts throughout his career. To refine my first statement, I believe that he is of consistently high craftsmanship, but his more original and brilliant pieces are maybe 1 in 6.

Ultimately all these descriptions are enough to technically set him apart from a "generic" composer of the time, if you aren't convinced of the more "musical" aspects. Many people would simply say Beethoven, Mozart, Haydn would qualify for that as you have said. Some would add CPE Bach. I would go so far to add two more sons of Bach(WF, and JC) and Clementi. Some might even add Hummel and some others, although I wouldn't since I find Hummel comparatively boring and less original(doesn't mean he should be ignored though), more so purely prolific and "conventional" as you said. I find Clementi to be exciting, melodic and original. I am a person who is always looking for more classical era material of high quality and Clementi has fit my bill.


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## Romantic Geek

clavichorder said:


> I can see why this would seem controversial to some, to bracket Clementi with the three Viennese masters. But here is my long winded argument against fixation on these composers that attempts to give Clementi his due.
> 
> I find that his works were far more virtuosic and his themes more melodious and subtly developed than "generic" contemporaries. Listen to the F sharp minor sonata I've linked, this was written in the 1780s and the finale that I've linked has a development section that really goes a long ways off the home key and finds its way back. If you can find good recordings of the first and second movements, you may find them to be quite unconventional. I would go so far as to say they were brilliant gems for their time.
> 
> You can hear Clementi's influence on the virtuosic and atypical accompaniment style in Beethoven, this accompaniment that is often a little more subtle than an Alberti bass and the like found in Mozart and Haydn a little more frequently and the virtuosity are a few of the things that made him the father of the fortepiano. The later works of his reveal him to be a master of counterpoint, as you find canons all over his work. He is an interesting composer like Haydn, because his career lasts so long and assimilates so many new things over its duration. He starts of strong and ends off strong and different. I'll admit that his later symphonies that were never published, but only performed in London, are very formal and academic in some ways, but are not without their strong points. He has better works than those, and I particularly recommend the late sonatas around op 50 and there are certain standouts throughout his career. To refine my first statement, I believe that he is of consistently high craftsmanship, but his more original and brilliant pieces are maybe 1 in 6.
> 
> Ultimately all these descriptions are enough to technically set him apart from a "generic" composer of the time, if you aren't convinced of the more "musical" aspects. Many people would simply say Beethoven, Mozart, Haydn would qualify for that as you have said. Some would add CPE Bach. I would go so far to add two more sons of Bach(WF, and JC) and Clementi. Some might even add Hummel and some others, although I wouldn't since I find Hummel comparatively boring and less original(doesn't mean he should be ignored though), more so purely prolific and "conventional" as you said. I find Clementi to be exciting, melodic and original. I am a person who is always looking for more classical era material of high quality and Clementi has fit my bill.


Believe in what you believe - Clementi is easy on the ear, but that doesn't always mean better. He's a dream for theorists like me who wish to show students perfect examples of conventional forms. But if you then move onto the music of Haydn, Mozart, or Beethoven, the complexity in their works will just confuse them further - because they were less "conventional." And the fact is, these composers are more important in their studies if they had to choose from a few classical composers.

I've never been one to really appreciate Clementi's music. But then again, I'm not the biggest fan of Mozart or Beethoven (as in, I like about half the works I encounter with them.)


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## clavichorder

Romantic Geek-as your name suggests you seem to like romantic music and following a few of your threads you like American romantic composers?(that last tid-bit isn't relevant to why I brought that up) Well, I'll wager you have not heard the last 3 Clementi Piano Sonatas op 50. But I'll also wager that you'd find these much more interesting to analyze, being a theorist, than his sonatinas or early sonatas. These are really not straightforward pieces. I will not argue about the sonatinas or many of his earlier sonatas, they are quite straighforward and quite clean, which is harder to do than most think, but nonetheless they are a bit "noodly" often, with many exceptions. These last three sonatas were written in 1820. With these works, I think you will change your mind about your blanket statement about Clementi being a composer of convention. I'm making the assumption that you are looking at the more well known works and possibly Gradus ad Parnassum etudes which are straightforward, or possibly that one b flat sonata that Horowitz plays.

So, do you play the piano and are you a good sight reader? Have a look at op. 50 sonatas, especially no 3 http://imslp.org/wiki/3_Piano_Sonatas,_Op.50_(Clementi,_Muzio). If you have an iTunes library, I have recordings of Howard Shelley playing them very well that I would love to send, and send me a PM with your email if you'd like me to do that. These works are his masterpieces for piano from what I know so far, they are full of counterpoint, and interesting dissonances, sometimes very quirky, and they are pretty intense. I honestly think that even a romantic listener would appreciate these works as they are solid transition works with elements of even baroque in them. You may not love them, but you might find them more interesting to analyze.


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## presto

Interesting thread, I’ve always felt Clementi was at his best writing Piano Sonatas.
I’ve got his orchestral works and they don’t seem as inspired as the Sonatas, even his C major Piano Concerto strikes me as being a rather tame affair.


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## Ukko

It probably does no good to point out that Clementi was Italian, and was only moderately (peripherally?) influenced by the Classical Period. His early works are at least as much 'Gallant' as Classical; later on he seems to have been influenced (by Moscheles?) to produce a kind of proto-Romantic music of pre-Lisztian restraint.

He was a highly intelligent composer/musician, who kept his heart within his chest. ABM often played three of the sonatas in his recitals; what's not to like?


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## science

Another thread: http://www.talkclassical.com/18730-muzio-clementi.html
And another: http://www.talkclassical.com/13164-muzio-clementi.html


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## lilmoz

he create some great piano works for pianos student(sonatine,etc)


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## IBMchicago

Isn't he the "father of modern piano technique?" He was thought to be the most virtuosic keyboardist in Europe, even during Mozart's peak. He made some attempts at symphony composition which aren't bad at all, but he was eclipsed by Haydn during his London visits.


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## zhen

by Haydn during his London visits.


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## beetzart

I have really got stuck into his sonatas and they really impress me. Admittedly some are short and fairly simple, more like practice pieces but with others you can really see where Beethoven got his inspiration from. The opus 50 of three sonatas show a fine body of work, arguably dare I say on par with some of Beethoven's.


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## science

Instantly among my favorite piano disks, and my absolute favorite from the classical era. Haydn and even Mozart do not compare, to me.


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## trazom

Nix said:


> (Mozart would later bash Clementi's compositional talents).


Mozart criticized his playing, not his compositional talents..


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## Miranna




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## hammeredklavier

Nix said:


> After all, this is the man who wrote the theme to _Marriage of Figaro_ Overture before Mozart did


I find it to be a rather generic Classical period gesture, found also in Mozart K.339/i


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