# Bebop



## Aramis (Mar 1, 2009)

Im my opinion, the finest genre of jazz. Charles Mingus, Charlie Parker, John Coltrane - great, and revolutionary composers. Especially Mingus was very unusual and original man. His piece "Moanin'" amazes me every single time i hear it. So chaotic, and still, so powerful and touching. I guess he was a genius.


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## jhar26 (Jul 6, 2008)

Aramis said:


> Im my opinion, the finest genre of jazz. Charles Mingus, Charlie Parker, John Coltrane - great, and revolutionary composers. Especially Mingus was very unusual and original man. His piece "Moanin'" amazes me every single time i hear it. So chaotic, and still, so powerful and touching. I guess he was a genius.


Yes - I love 'em. And let's not forget Thelonious Monk and Miles Davis. But there were terrific jazz men from the swing era also - Count Basie, Benny Goodman and above all others Duke Ellington.


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## Guest (Mar 2, 2009)

Me to, agree with you both, for me the 50s were when I discovered Jazz, and it seems to have gone down hill from there on or is it me? I have lost touch a bit now, have you heard of a pianist Mike Nock ? I came across him on the Naxos Jazz label well worth a listen if you get the chance.


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## Aramis (Mar 1, 2009)

> Miles Davis


Davis made some records in bebop style, but at the long run he had nothing to do with it.



jhar26 said:


> But there were terrific jazz men from the swing era also - Count Basie, Benny Goodman and above all others Duke Ellington.


Yes, indeed, but I made this thread about bebop hoping that there is general topic about jazz somewhere around here.


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## PostMinimalist (May 14, 2008)

Moanin' is by Bobby Timons, not Mingus. And Mingus actually doesn't really qualify as a bebop composer even if he was very influentual as a player - one of the Quintet of the year (Parker, Gillespie, Powell, Raoch & Mingus). The great Bebop composers were Parker, Davis, Gillespie, Dexter Gordon, Wardel Grey, Elmo Hope and others. Mingus and Thelonious Monk as composers belong to the 'Post Bop' movement while Sonny Rollins and Charlie Rouse are considered exponents of 'Hard-Bop'. It's quite a thicket os styles but I agree with your statment that bebop is one of the finest forms of Jazz. 

Mike Nock is an Australian jazz pianist who stradles 'Bebop' and 'European' jazz styles sucsessfully. The Naxos jazz lable has some notable recordings such as the UMO Big Band from Finland and Zolar's 'Flying With Bird' CD.

FC


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## jhar26 (Jul 6, 2008)

Aramis said:


> Davis made some records in bebop style, but at the long run he had nothing to do with it.


Well, he played on quite a few of Charlie Parker's mid-40's records, so he was there at the very birth of it all. Not that his contributions to the creation of the genre were as important as those of Parker himself or Dizzy Gillespie's or Monk's but he was part of the scene when it all began. Besides, as you say he made some (very good) albums in the bebop and hardbop genre which justify him being listed in my modest opinion.


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## PostMinimalist (May 14, 2008)

Davis is central.
How can you say he had nothing to do with it?


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## jhar26 (Jul 6, 2008)

post-minimalist said:


> Mingus and Thelonious Monk as composers belong to the 'Post Bop' movement while Sonny Rollins and Charlie Rouse are considered exponents of 'Hard-Bop'.


Monk already recorded in 1947 although he was maybe more influenced by the blues than someone like Parker.


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## PostMinimalist (May 14, 2008)

Parker/Davis - Anthropology, Donna Lee, Aleucha, Now's the Time, Billie's Bounce. This alone is enough to place him at the scene!


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## PostMinimalist (May 14, 2008)

jhar26 said:


> Monk already recorded in 1947 although he was maybe more influenced by the blues than someone like Parker.


I would be hard pushed to say Monk was at all influneced by the Blues. His personal disonant style as a composer is a direct result of the interest in modern classical harmony in third stream jazz at the time. His piano playing on Bebop cuts resemble Bud Powel, Herbie Nichols and George Wallington. He is coming from Art Tatum and the Stride school rather than the blues.


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## jhar26 (Jul 6, 2008)

post-minimalist said:


> I would be hard pushed to say Monk was at all influneced by the Blues. His personal disonant style as a composer is a direct result of the interest in modern classical harmony in third stream jazz at the time. His piano playing on Bebop cuts resemble Bud Powel, Herbie Nichols and George Wallington. He is coming from Art Tatum and the Stride school rather than the blues.


Ok - I'm always willing to learn.


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## PostMinimalist (May 14, 2008)

No problem!

As a bop fan I will look for some links and post them up.


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## Herzeleide (Feb 25, 2008)

I love bop. I also love post- (or hard-) bop (as well as most jazz  ). Example of hard-bop at its best: listen to the live version of 'Four' by Miles Davis, from the album _Four & More_.


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## ecg_fa (Nov 10, 2008)

I love most forms of jazz, be bop included. I DO feel Monk had blues influence, though
I see the stride comparisons-- a form also 'informed by' blues, as much of jazz has been
throughout, & certainly before the 'freer' era after about 1965. I think Davis was 
formed by bebop & the 'freedom' of harmonic improv there (not to mention Louis Armstrong's trumpet style too), though he certainly changed, and developed his own style and diverse ways of approach. I think he's one of the few jazz artists who really spanned the bop to free eras and made big contributions in all. 

Ed


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## Guest (Mar 2, 2009)

post-minimalist said:


> Mike Nock is an Australian jazz pianist who stradles 'Bebop' and 'European' jazz styles sucsessfully. The Naxos jazz lable has some notable recordings such as the UMO Big Band from Finland and Zolar's 'Flying With Bird' CD.
> 
> FC


Mike Nock is a Kiwi


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## PostMinimalist (May 14, 2008)

Sorry about that! My apologies to the NZ guys on the forum.
Great player, though!


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## PostMinimalist (May 14, 2008)

If anyone is interested in seeing alot of bebop written out, you could do a lot worse than thw 'Charlie Parker Omnibook' which is published in all keys and in bass clef.
There are realitively few mistakes in this mammoth transcription feat!


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## Guest (Mar 3, 2009)

Last night I had a Jazz only night with my CDs, one that I played was Miles Davis [a remastered] "Bye Bye Blackbird" I noticed that he played right at the back of the beat *when solo,* a fraction slower and he would have been dragging He was the same all the way through the CD when solo, unfortunately the details of the ens were not on the CD book but the Piano, Drum and Bass sounded spot on the beat, I just never noticed this before? I suppose that was his style


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## PostMinimalist (May 14, 2008)

By the time Miles did Bye Bye Blackbird he had already gone through the'Cool School' with Gil Evans and if you listen to something like the 'Miles Ahead' with Gil's orchestrations you can hear this 'lazy' style clearly developing. It's a long way from the 'Birth of the Cool' Album he did with the Nonet a couple of years before but he had matured somuch in the interim period. 'Blackbird' comes after that. I think the band is Wynton Kelly Ron Carter (or Paul Chambers) bass Tony Williams Drums and John Coltrane tenor, but I'm not sure and I'm now off to look it up.


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## PostMinimalist (May 14, 2008)

Not bad for off the top of my head. Kelly, Chambers and Coltrane are there but it was Red Garland on Drums.

By the way, here's a link to the most informative site about Miles

http://www.plosin.com/milesAhead/

FC


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## Guest (Mar 5, 2009)

Thanks PM, I have just picked up a CD "The Trumpet Player" again no details with the CD just Jazz Pack 024 I suppose you cant expect too much for NZ$6.99, I'll try it to night


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## Bach (Jun 2, 2008)

Bebop is quality. 

Modern Jazz is great too though - Jazz fusion stuff. Laurence Cottle, Brecker Brothers. Outrageous.


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## JTech82 (Feb 6, 2009)

post-minimalist said:


> Not bad for off the top of my head. Kelly, Chambers and Coltrane are there but it was Red Garland on Drums.
> 
> By the way, here's a link to the most informative site about Miles
> 
> ...


Red Garland was a pianist, not a drummer. Wynton Kelly also played piano. Paul Chambers was a bassist.

In fact, the Miles Davis Quintet was the following back in the days of the later Prestige and early Columbia recordings:

Miles
Coltrane
Garland
Chambers
Philly Joe Jones

This group changed around the time of "Milestones" to add Cannonball Adderley on alto saxophone.

The group changed yet again for "Kind of Blue" and "Live At The Plaza":

Miles
Coltrane
Adderley
Bill Evans or Wynton Kelly (depending on the track)
Chambers
Jimmy Cobb

By the way, that website you provided is NOT the most informative site about Miles Davis. In fact, I'll go on to say that there aren't hardly any websites that are that informative when it comes to jazz or classical for that matter.

Jazz is something I know a ton about, because I lived and breathed it for 10 years before I even got into listening to classical music. I own around 5,000 jazz recordings.


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## Guest (Mar 6, 2009)

This is on in Wellington at the moment, unfortunately I can't make it, stay locked onto home page and a scroll of Artists appears including Mike Nock

http://www.jazzfestival.co.nz/


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## JTech82 (Feb 6, 2009)

If anyone knows jazz music around here, it's me. Just ask Bach.


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## PostMinimalist (May 14, 2008)

I stand corrected... (twice now, see Mike Nock). 

Miles' bands line-ups were never my strong point! 

@JTech82 We're you a player or a listener?

I play a bit myself and conduct big bands from time to time.
Recently I have arranged for and conducted the Greek National Rado Big Band and my trio Full Circle has just had its CD rereleased. ALthough now I'm getting back into classical playing.


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## PostMinimalist (May 14, 2008)

JTech82 said:


> If anyone knows jazz music around here, it's me. Just ask Bach.


Then you will be the guy to tell us about Monks influences.


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## JTech82 (Feb 6, 2009)

post-minimalist said:


> Then you will be the guy to tell us about Monks influences.


Monk was influenced mainly by stride piano like James P. Johnson, who actually lived not too far from Monk when his family moved to NYC. Another one of his influences, as was a lot of cats back in those days, was Duke Ellington.


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## JTech82 (Feb 6, 2009)

post-minimalist said:


> I stand corrected... (twice now, see Mike Nock).
> 
> Miles' bands line-ups were never my strong point!
> 
> ...


I'm an avid collector, listener, and semi-professional musician, though I would never rely on being a musician as a viable income.

Jazz was my first love in music and it still is, but I'm developing an equal affinity for classical music now.


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