# Would the world be better off without agriculture?



## EddieRUKiddingVarese (Jan 8, 2013)

Before the invention of agriculture, people lived by hunting and fishing and picking berries and mushrooms. Being nomads, they had no place to keep a lot of stuff in, so they gathered less of it and consequently consumed not very much resources. Their inhabitations were mobile and temporary, doing very little permanent harm to nature. They also had no reason to dry swamps or cut down forests. Whereas agriculture ruined everything, distances man from nature and soon enabled capitalism.

I say eat dirt but watch out for the worms they don't taste so good ..........


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## EddieRUKiddingVarese (Jan 8, 2013)

I hate living in relative comfort in an industrialised society I would much prefer to go back to higher mortality rates, constant starvation even with great amounts of manual labour, and a low chance to even survive winter in the colder climes, wouldn't be so bad here in Oz- nice and warm but might get thirsty.:lol:


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## Dim7 (Apr 24, 2009)

http://www.talkclassical.com/groups/anatopic-anachronism-d994-stone-age.html


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## Judith (Nov 11, 2015)

Where I live in Leeds UK, it was agricultural until the 1800s when the Industrial Revolution started and woollen mills were being built. Leeds population then grew.


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## Ingélou (Feb 10, 2013)

No, the world would not be better off. There are too many people now to live by hunting and gathering. And the lives of those hunter-gatherers was short and uncertain, with little chance to achieve anything beyond survival, so while - who knows - their music may have been ethereal it was also ephemeral.


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## Kivimees (Feb 16, 2013)

Try to find time to listen to classical music while hunting/gathering.


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## senza sordino (Oct 20, 2013)

Once farming began, the climate was pushed away from the cycles of glacial and interglacial periods. We humans have modified more than 50% of the Earth's land surface. But we're not going back to picking wild berries and killing woolly mammoths. We created this situation, and only we can fix it (or not) - there is no Planet B.


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## Belowpar (Jan 14, 2015)

"Whatsoever therefore is consequent to a time of Warre, where every man is Enemy to every man; the same is consequent to the time, wherein men live without other security, than what their own strength, and their own invention shall furnish them withall. In such condition, there is no place for Industry; because the fruit thereof is uncertain; and consequently no Culture of the Earth; no Navigation, nor use of the commodities that may be imported by Sea; no commodious Building; no Instruments of moving, and removing such things as require much force; no Knowledge of the face of the Earth; no account of Time; no Arts; no Letters; no Society; and which is worst of all, continuall feare, and danger of violent death; And the life of man, solitary, poore, nasty, brutish, and short."


Thomas Hobbes


You are welcome to borrow my time machine, as soon as it arrives from the future.


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## znapschatz (Feb 28, 2016)

EddieRUKiddingVarese said:


> Before the invention of agriculture, people lived by hunting and fishing and picking berries and mushrooms. Being nomads, they had no place to keep a lot of stuff in, so they gathered less of it and consequently consumed not very much resources. Their inhabitations were mobile and temporary, doing very little permanent harm to nature. They also had no reason to dry swamps or cut down forests. Whereas agriculture ruined everything, distances man from nature and soon enabled capitalism.
> 
> I say eat dirt but watch out for the worms they don't taste so good ..........


But as populations grew, areas were stripped faster than replenished and they were forced to find new ones, maximizing what resources they could utilize. Agriculture was inevitable.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Population and agriculture…from an article in The Guardian: "Humanity has moved a step closer to wiping out our closest evolutionary relatives, with four of the six great ape species now listed internationally as critically endangered."

The eastern gorilla, western gorilla, Bornean orangutan, and Sumatran orangutan are all classed as critically endangered, one step above extinction. Illegal hunting in Africa is the greatest impact there, probably due to Africa's doubling of population in the last 20 years, and habitat loss through deforestation for palm oil production is killing off the orangutans in Indonesia.

Chimpanzees and bonobos, the other two great ape species, are classified as endangered.

https://www.theguardian.com/environ...llegal-hunting-iucn-red-list?CMP=share_btn_tw


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## isorhythm (Jan 2, 2015)

No agriculture, no cities, probably no writing, certainly no classical music.


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## joen_cph (Jan 17, 2010)

Yeah, those were the days...

("the quest for fire", 1981 movie)


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## Totenfeier (Mar 11, 2016)

isorhythm said:


> No agriculture, no cities, probably no writing, certainly no classical music.


That's it. No symbolic communication of any kind (you need to keep agricultural records, and you _absolutely_ need classical music records!)

Hunting/gathering only works with a limited population. Whether the human population _should_ be limited is a different philosophical question.


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## TxllxT (Mar 2, 2011)

Kivimees said:


> Try to find time to listen to classical music while hunting/gathering.


How many pots with pickles did you gather already for the coming winter season?


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## EddieRUKiddingVarese (Jan 8, 2013)

Totenfeier said:


> That's it. No symbolic communication of any kind (you need to keep agricultural records, and you _absolutely_ need classical music records!)
> 
> Hunting/gathering only works with a limited population. Whether the human population _should_ be limited is a different philosophical question.


Oh I forgot, you can keep your "I" playerer thingy, what ever there called (so you can keep your classical stuff- might need some solar panels too) and I will keep my record player- might have to get and old wind up thou


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## EddieRUKiddingVarese (Jan 8, 2013)

TxllxT said:


> How many pots with pickles did you gather already for the coming winter season?


I'm in Oz so will have no trouble keeping warm, the Australian indigenous population managed for 40,000 years without agriculture quite well in fact until the English turned up one day...............


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## EddieRUKiddingVarese (Jan 8, 2013)

joen_cph said:


> View attachment 88573
> 
> 
> Yeah, those were the days...
> ...


I liked the Ringo Starr version


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## Guest (Sep 8, 2016)

No agriculture > No industrial revolution > No capitalism > No Thatcher.

I'll take it.


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## EddieRUKiddingVarese (Jan 8, 2013)

dogen said:


> No agriculture > No industrial revolution > No capitalism > No Thatcher.
> 
> I'll take it.


What a good thought - you know we have a saying in OZ from the time Capt Cook turned up in 1788- he chased a cook all around Australia, ended up in France and lost his pants and found them in Tasmania!


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## Ingélou (Feb 10, 2013)

dogen said:


> No agriculture > No industrial revolution > No capitalism > No Thatcher.
> 
> I'll take it.


Yes, but....> no computer > no knowledge of dogen spreading throughout the world.


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## EddieRUKiddingVarese (Jan 8, 2013)

Ingélou said:


> Yes, but....> no computer > no knowledge of dogen spreading throughout the world.


You never know what he might be capable of using sticks............. call it esticks or isticks (probably already copyrighted)


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

I'm all for agriculture, but let's get rid of Monsanto.


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## Kivimees (Feb 16, 2013)

TxllxT said:


> How many pots with pickles did you gather already for the coming winter season?


I finally gave away about 30 kg of cucumbers to city folks.


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## EddieRUKiddingVarese (Jan 8, 2013)

I'm lonely being the only yes vote or is that loonly - don't answer unless you want to..............


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## Ingélou (Feb 10, 2013)

EddieRUKiddingVarese said:


> You never know what he might be capable of using sticks............. call it esticks or isticks (probably already copyrighted)


Of course, you're right - I'd forgotten how gifted dogen is at smoke signals. :tiphat:


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## Guest (Sep 9, 2016)

One plus of not having agriculture is you'd never get stuck behind a tractor.


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## EddieRUKiddingVarese (Jan 8, 2013)

Now your talking


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## Belowpar (Jan 14, 2015)

dogen said:


> No agriculture > No industrial revolution > No capitalism > No Thatcher.
> 
> I'll take it.


I hope this is humour. It's 26 years since she was PM.

My turn to try some humour

Did you used to write Socialist Workers headlines in the 80's, and Corbyn's speech yesterday?

It's time to get over it. IN 100 years she'l be forgotten and people will study the changes that happened to society as the industrial age waned and the computer changed everything about the way we live and work.

In 10 years someone will start a thread on TC. Would the World be better off without computers?

(PS my politics are not what I think you think they are. I hope your politics are not what I've been thinking they are.)


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

Kivimees said:


> Try to find time to listen to classical music while hunting/gathering.


My neighbors do it all the time, out there in their deer-blinds with ear-buds - although they are more likely listening to country.


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## EddieRUKiddingVarese (Jan 8, 2013)

Belowpar said:


> I hope this is humour. It's 26 years since she was PM.
> 
> My turn to try some humour
> 
> ...


So the new question is now Would the World be better off without computers?


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## Vaneyes (May 11, 2010)

"I'm ready, trespasser."


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## EddieRUKiddingVarese (Jan 8, 2013)

Yeah what ever happened to the "The Good Life" Felicity Kendal was a bit of alright- give me that sort of agriculture any day 
that should get some more yes votes??


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## EddieRUKiddingVarese (Jan 8, 2013)

You know its not so bad here - I posted this (below) on another forum and the thread got closed down - go figure. Maybe they had an unwritten rule banning 1970's Oz comedy shows!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## ArtMusic (Jan 5, 2013)

Maybe when we can efficiently harness the power of the sun in our galaxy and turn it to another nearby planet to grow more food, we then no longer need to grow them on earth.


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## Johnnie Burgess (Aug 30, 2015)

ArtMusic said:


> Maybe when we can efficiently harness the power of the sun in our galaxy and turn it to another nearby planet to grow more food, we then no longer need to grow them on earth.


It would also need water for the food to grow. And some kind of shelter to be warm enough to grow.


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## ArtMusic (Jan 5, 2013)

Johnnie Burgess said:


> It would also need water for the food to grow. And some kind of shelter to be warm enough to grow.


All the energy needed to grow a crop, including water and shelter, are derived from the Sun.


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## Johnnie Burgess (Aug 30, 2015)

ArtMusic said:


> All the energy needed to grow a crop, including water and shelter, are derived from the Sun.


But no planet near us has been found with liquid water. Nor do any have an atmosphere with oxygen so who would harvest the food?


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## Johnnie Burgess (Aug 30, 2015)

ArtMusic said:


> All the energy needed to grow a crop, including water and shelter, are derived from the Sun.


But no planet near us has been found with liquid water. Nor do any have an atmosphere with oxygen so who would harvest the food?


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## ArtMusic (Jan 5, 2013)

Johnnie Burgess said:


> But no planet near us has been found with liquid water. Nor do any have an atmosphere with oxygen so who would harvest the food?


I don't know the answer to that. What I meant was it may be possible with huge amounts of energy derived efficiently from the sun, to construct and to maintain a large green house in Mars, say.


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## Johnnie Burgess (Aug 30, 2015)

ArtMusic said:


> I don't know the answer to that. What I meant was it may be possible with huge amounts of energy derived efficiently from the sun, to construct and to maintain a large green house in Mars, say.


But would you send people to build the greenhouse or use robots? Plus with the distance between us and Mars there could be no rescue missions if something goes wrong.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

ArtMusic said:


> All the energy needed to grow a crop, including water and shelter, are derived from the Sun.


Very arguable. In fact, nobody knows where the considerable amount of water on earth came from. Current thinking is that it was from collisions with watery or icy asteroids (a guess at best), but that doesn't explain where the asteroids' water came from.


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## Kivimees (Feb 16, 2013)

Belowpar said:


> IN 100 years she'l be forgotten and people will study the changes that happened to society as the industrial age waned ...


"And, you know, there is no such thing as society. " - Margaret Thatcher


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## ArtMusic (Jan 5, 2013)

Johnnie Burgess said:


> But would you send people to build the greenhouse or use robots? Plus with the distance between us and Mars there could be no rescue missions if something goes wrong.


The state of technology would be that no humans would need to do the harvesting if we are at the state where the sun's energy would be converted into all energy required to grow and harvest back to Earth. This literally includes all steps of the production. Yes, it's wishful thinking perhaps. The sun however, is just one near infinite ball of energy burning away.


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## Kjetil Heggelund (Jan 4, 2016)

Since I voted yes, does that mean I would have no beer?? :O


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## Gordontrek (Jun 22, 2012)

Gotta say, you learn something new every day. I had no idea there was even a debate about this until I saw this thread. A bit of research told me that agriculture is being blamed for the advent of war, poverty, famine, and crime. Post hoc ergo propter hoc. 
I live a stone's throw away from a farm. Literally, I could stand in my front yard and throw a stone into it. You mean that those old leather-skinned guys in overalls and big green John Deere tractors are making people fight each other and beg on the streets? I'd love to know how that works. 
On the bright side, if agriculture didn't exist, I wouldn't be getting stuck behind a tractor going 15 mph on my way to work/school. Country dwellers will know what I'm talking about.


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## Kivimees (Feb 16, 2013)

Gordontrek said:


> I live a stone's throw away from a farm. Literally, I could stand in my front yard and throw a stone into it.


Please don't throw stones into farms. Farmers have it hard enough without people throwing stones into their fields. :lol:


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## Xaltotun (Sep 3, 2010)

Agriculture is all right, but it needs _culture_ to control, guide and restrict itself.


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## kartikeys (Mar 16, 2013)

Not without agriculture... but with a liking for labour, for 
the outside world, and less dependent on machines. No 
matter how much we progress, we are not meant for many 
things we do. We think adaptation happens quickly, it doesn't 
and we are instruments of the slowness of evolution.


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## EddieRUKiddingVarese (Jan 8, 2013)

Kjetil Heggelund said:


> Since I voted yes, does that mean I would have no beer?? :O


Afraid so, Although I'm currently working on developing a Paleo Beer just in case Donald Trump wins office.............


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