# Orchestral Aleatoric Music



## toybassoon (Oct 31, 2011)

Hello Music-Fans,

I have recently discovered aleatory music and am interested in understanding the capabilities of, specifically, orchestral 'chance' music. 

I have studied Lutoslowski's 2nd Symphony. I admired the simplicity of his notation, but didn't particulally enjoy the music. Can anybody suggest any orchestral aleatoric music to help me understand this strange and interesting style?

Peace out, 

tb


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## superhorn (Mar 23, 2010)

Carl Nielsen's 5th symphony , premiered in 1922 under the composer, has what may be the first use of aleatory effects in 20th century music. The snare drum,which has a prominent obbligato part in the first movement, is directed at the climax to improvise his part as he clashes with the rest of the orchestra in a titanic struggle between the two. 
The orchestra is in 3/4, but the snare drummer is playing in 4/4. It's an extraordinary 
moment, and all hell has broken out until the orchestra manages to overpower the snare drum, and the movement ends quietly with a clarinet solo as the snare drummer plays offstage,retreating .


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## Guest (Oct 31, 2011)

I would have said "Lutosławski's symphony no. 2," but you already mentioned that one. So try the third or the fourth, I guess. Or any of his shorter orchestra works. Mi-parti or Venetian Games or some such. They all have aleatoric bits in them.

Schnittke's Symphony no. 1 might qualify. It starts out with the orchestra playing sans conductor. After a few minutes, the conductor comes in and directs the rest of the piece. (Some of the conducted parts sound more aleatoric than the opening, too.)

Since aleatory is a technique, not a style, you will get vastly different results from different composers. Kagel sounds nothing like Xenakis. And you might as well know that there are two different approaches to the control/not control issue: indeterminacy, which is largely a U.S. phenomena started by Cage, and which involves less control on the composers' part; and aleatory, which is largely a European phenomena started by Boulez, and which involves sections of more or less performer freedom in an otherwise written out piece. In indeterminacy, you will sometimes have complete performer freedom and sometimes no performer freedom at all. Depends on where the composer decided to "give up" control. There's indeterminacy of performance, where the composer sets up a situation in which performers do things; and there's indeterminacy of composition, where the composer doesn't decide each note, but once the notes are set down (however they've been derived), then that's what the performer has to play.

Aleatory, as superhorn has suggested, is all about improvising within a set context, and in that regard is very much like cadenzas.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

Like Lutoslawski, Alan Hovhaness was also influenced by John Cage, he also incorporated controlled chance techniques into his symphonies & other orchestral works. Cage admired Hovhaness' music, he said it was like "inner singing," although it is very different from his own. Hovhaness' short orchestral piece with a prominent part for trumpet called _Return and Rebuild the Desolate Places_ has these chaotic parts that are good examples of how he used these techniques...


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## HarpsichordConcerto (Jan 1, 2010)

some guy said:


> ... aleatory, which is largely a European phenomena started by Boulez, and which involves sections of more or less performer freedom in an otherwise written out piece. In indeterminacy, you will sometimes have complete performer freedom and sometimes no performer freedom at all.


Does complete performer freedom even entail choice of instrument(s)?


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## violadude (May 2, 2011)

HarpsichordConcerto said:


> Does complete performer freedom even entail choice of instrument(s)?


Sometimes.


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