# Things only performers would know



## Nix (Feb 20, 2010)

I thought it would be fun to start a thread where the instrumentalists can contribute information concerning composers and their pieces that only they would know from performing them. Insightful stuff and just fun facts. 

For example: 

In some of Dvorak's cello parts for ensemble writing, instead of putting the cello in tenor clef when it's in a high register, he puts it in treble an octave above what's intended. Cellists are expected to transpose down an octave when reading Dvorak's music in treble clef. Don't ask me why.


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## tdc (Jan 17, 2011)

In some of Rodrigo's guitar pieces there are parts that are pretty much impossible to play on a six-string guitar. There are also passages that exist, that may not be impossible to play, but I've never come across an interpretation where the performers play the passage exactly as it is notated. 

I think I wasn't aware of how much performers 'adjust' certain pieces over time, to make playable.


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## violadude (May 2, 2011)

The double, triple and quadruple stops that Hindemith writes for viola are devilishly awkward.


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## Aksel (Dec 3, 2010)

For some perverted, strange reason, the _tenor_ trombone parts in Shostakovitch's 5th symphony are written in the alto clef (a c-clef with the c on the middle line, a third below tenor clef).


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## Nix (Feb 20, 2010)

Prokofiev's 1st Symphony is just one giant awkward mess for all the players involved.

Also, cellists have to fake the 'storm' movement of Beethoven 6.


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## Polednice (Sep 13, 2009)

Brahms's piano music is hard.


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## Huilunsoittaja (Apr 6, 2010)

Nix said:


> Prokofiev's 1st Symphony is just one giant awkward mess for all the players involved.
> 
> Also, cellists have to fake the 'storm' movement of Beethoven 6.


 Yes, the flute part, . Because it's "classical" there can't be a piccolo, so the flutes are forced to play at their range's limit, hitting that high D many times, plus doing lots of fast 8th notes above the staff. But Prokofiev loved flute, so I'm good with that. 

Rimsky-Korsakov _kills _the tongues of flutists, not even Prokofiev or Stravinsky max out repeated articulation like he does. ex. Russian Easter Overture, Scheherezade. My tongue/jaw is quite sore after doing those excerpts.


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## TxllxT (Mar 2, 2011)

Every time a choir turns itself towards Verdi's music, everyone has to smile  at his abundant _ppp_ superscriptions.


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## altiste (Jun 11, 2008)

*Gorecki - Symphony No. 3*

Yeah, in the Symphony No. 3, Op. 36 of Gorecki, also known as the _Symphony of Sorrowful Songs_, someone should have told the composer while he was writing it that it's AGONY for a viola player to play long notes that quietly for that length of time....


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## notesetter (Mar 31, 2011)

In Ravel's 'Daphnis and Chloe' ballet, the first trombone is required to play an exposed, soft arpeggio starting on pedal B flat and ending on high D, a span of 3 octaves and a third. Upon performing this, I decided to swallow my pride and ask the second trombonist to play just the pedal, after which I picked up on the rest of the passage. The added security ensured a seamless line, and a lot less trepidation.

This same idea is used quite often by first players who regularly use an assistant, most notably the first horn.


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## Nix (Feb 20, 2010)

altiste said:


> Yeah, in the Symphony No. 3, Op. 36 of Gorecki, also known as the _Symphony of Sorrowful Songs_, someone should have told the composer while he was writing it that it's AGONY for a viola player to play long notes that quietly for that length of time....


Oh god, I have my fair share of _those_ pieces, though not the Gorecki. Mahler usually has a lot of held notes that can get really tiring, but the worst is Carmina Burana. Playing the same 4 notes over and over and over again is the worst feeling ever. Not just because it's tiring and uncomfortable but because it seems like it'll never end. Fortunately I lucked out after the second rehearsal and was offered to play the piano part.


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## superhorn (Mar 23, 2010)

Schumann's Konzertstuck for 4 horns and orchestra is a great piece, but it's so terrifyingly difficult it gves me the creeps just to think about it,as a former horn player.
The first horn part is the musical equivalent of walking tightrope without a net over hungry lions and tigers and a pool of sharks. 
It takes the horn way above its normal high register too often and Schumann must have been on something when he wrote it. It's the first important solo work for the then relatively new valved horn, and is absolutely unplayable on natural,that is,valveless horns.
Schumann was the first major composer to champion the valved horn as a solo instrument. He also wrote a piece for valved horn and piano (or cello) called Adagio and allegro, which is not as hard in terms of playing in the high register, but the horn player has almost nowhere to breathe for about 8 minutes, and you can almost asphyxiate trying to play it.
I've performed it live, but I'm not sure I would have the gunts to attempt the Konzertstuck.


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## Guest (Jun 28, 2011)

Polednice said:


> Brahms's piano music is hard.


Oh for goodness sake Polednice you can't just say that! the interesting thing is exactly 'How hard' on a scale of 1 to 2 compared to say Beethovens Flute Son.


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## Meaghan (Jul 31, 2010)

Polednice said:


> Brahms's piano music is hard.


And the beautiful second movement of his first clarinet sonata is unidiomatic.


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## Guest (Jun 28, 2011)

Ah, I love his Clarinet Sonatas a friend tells me they are very difficult to play


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## violadude (May 2, 2011)

Andante said:


> Ah, I love his Clarinet Sonatas a friend tells me they are very difficult to play


I don't know about the clarinet but they are difficult on the viola for sure.


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## Sofronitsky (Jun 12, 2011)

Oftentimes (in publishes like Schirmer) in piano music there are bad editors that carelessly write out fingering that makes the piece impossible to play at tempo. I became painfully aware of this when I started studying Chopin's Etude op. 25 no. 12


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## Meaghan (Jul 31, 2010)

Sofronitsky said:


> Oftentimes (in publishes like Schirmer) in piano music there are bad editors that carelessly write out fingering that makes the piece impossible to play at tempo. I became painfully aware of this when I started studying Chopin's Etude op. 25 no. 12


Silly editors. Beethoven does that too, I hear. (Though presumably his fingerings weren't impossible for _him_.)


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## Sofronitsky (Jun 12, 2011)

Meaghan said:


> Silly editors. Beethoven does that too, I hear. (Though presumably his fingerings weren't impossible for _him_.)


Hehe Emanuel Ax seems to think he was screwing with other pianists.


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## Meaghan (Jul 31, 2010)

Sofronitsky said:


> Hehe Emanuel Ax seems to think he was screwing with other pianists.


I was trying to remember where I heard that and who said it. Did you watch a Beethoven documentary?


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## Ravellian (Aug 17, 2009)

Mozart piano concerti are more difficult to pull off than any large-scale Russian piano concerto, because of the the way the part is written. In Mozart, you are very exposed; every note must be even and shaded perfectly; in a Rachmaninov concerto, you can miss half the notes and people won't care!!


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## Polednice (Sep 13, 2009)

You can only call yourself a concert pianist when you find the magic goblin which lives inside your piano. Oh my God, I am insanely tired right now...


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## samurai (Apr 22, 2011)

Polednice said:


> You can only call yourself a concert pianist when you find the magic goblin which lives inside your piano. Oh my God, I am insanely tired right now...


@Polednice, Get some rest and feel better; this place--and the goblin--will still be here when you wake up refreshed tomorrow! :lol:


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## Meaghan (Jul 31, 2010)

Ravellian said:


> Mozart piano concerti are more difficult to pull off than any large-scale Russian piano concerto, because of the the way the part is written. In Mozart, you are very exposed; every note must be even and shaded perfectly; in a Rachmaninov concerto, you can miss half the notes and people won't care!!


I think this is true of much classical music relative to lusher, showier romantic stuff. The Mozart Clarinet Concerto looks easy, but it's not.


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## Meaghan (Jul 31, 2010)

Polednice said:


> You can only call yourself a concert pianist when you find the magic goblin which lives inside your


Quotable. I must remember this one. Don't worry, I'll give you credit.


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## Stasou (Apr 23, 2011)

So apparently in the Rite of Spring, the cellists have a few seconds to tune lowest string down. I'm not a cellist but someone told me this. It may actually be Firebird.


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## Meaghan (Jul 31, 2010)

In Polovtsian Dances, the clarinetists have to switch back and forth between Bb and A clarinets a few times, sometimes with only a couple measures of rests in which to do so. The challenge is to avoid dropping a clarinet or chipping a reed while switching instruments as fast as you possibly can. Makes the piece all the more exciting.


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## Sofronitsky (Jun 12, 2011)

Ravellian said:


> Mozart piano concerti are more difficult to pull off than any large-scale Russian piano concerto, because of the the way the part is written. In Mozart, you are very exposed; every note must be even and shaded perfectly; in a *Rachmaninov concerto, you can miss half the notes and people won't care*!!


 I hope you spelled _Ligeti_ wrong. If someone missed half the notes of a Rachmaninoff concerto I would probably projectile vomit onto the stage.


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## Sofronitsky (Jun 12, 2011)

Meaghan said:


> I was trying to remember where I heard that and who said it. Did you watch a Beethoven documentary?


Yesss. It's one of the good Classical Music dvds on Netflix instant play(along with that Amateur Cliburn competition dvd and I guess I can count the faux oscar nominated Jacquline Du Pre movie). I must say that I was a little bored by some of the interviews, though.


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## KJohnson (Dec 31, 2010)

I think composers know these things too. They just want to make it tough for us, thinking we (musicians) are somehow impressed by unusually difficult music. ))


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## Aksel (Dec 3, 2010)

notesetter said:


> In Ravel's 'Daphnis and Chloe' ballet, the first trombone is required to play an exposed, soft arpeggio starting on pedal B flat and ending on high D, a span of 3 octaves and a third. Upon performing this, I decided to swallow my pride and ask the second trombonist to play just the pedal, after which I picked up on the rest of the passage. The added security ensured a seamless line, and a lot less trepidation.
> 
> This same idea is used quite often by first players who regularly use an assistant, most notably the first horn.


What? A three octave arpeggio on the trombone? I'm shocked, slightly amused and I want to play Daphnis et Chloe right now.


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## Huilunsoittaja (Apr 6, 2010)

You know you're a music nerd when...

You dream the music you listen to, or perform. Happens to me all the time.


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## superhorn (Mar 23, 2010)

Some years ago, a New York Times music critic reviewed a concert by the Bonn Beethovenhalle orchestra at Carnegie hall under its then music director Dennis Russell Davies. One of the works on the program was the Schumann Konzertstuck,played by members of the horn section.
The reviewer was trying to show his pious support of the period instrument movement 
and declared that he would have preferred to hear an "authentic" performance of the work on natural horns. We all associate natrual horns with the period instruments.
However, the reviewer was apparently ignorant of the fact that it was written as a showpiece for valved horns, and is absolutely unplayable without valves !
Trying to play it on natural horns would be rather like entering Ford model Ts in the Indianapolis 500 !


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## GoneBaroque (Jun 16, 2011)

Sounds like the NYT

Rob


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## notesetter (Mar 31, 2011)

Aksel said:


> What? A three octave arpeggio on the trombone? I'm shocked, slightly amused and I want to play Daphnis et Chloe right now.


Actually, it's not a true chordal arpeggio - it's the overtone series in first position:

Bb-Bb-F-Bb-D-F-Ab-Bb-C-D held, then back to Bb.


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

How to develop impeccable piano technique:
> Play Hanon's _The Virtuoso Pianist in Sixty Exercises_

How to lose all desire to develop impeccable piano technique:
> Play Hanon's _The Virtuoso Pianist in Sixty Exercises_


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## Guest (Jul 2, 2011)

Couchie said:


> How to develop impeccable piano technique:
> > Play Hanon's _The Virtuoso Pianist in Sixty Exercises_
> 
> How to lose all desire to develop impeccable piano technique:
> > Play Hanon's _The Virtuoso Pianist in Sixty Exercises_


Yes I agree and I do like this post ........... lots of empathy, infact I like this post a very much


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## Ravellian (Aug 17, 2009)

Couchie said:


> How to develop impeccable piano technique:
> > Play Hanon's _The Virtuoso Pianist in Sixty Exercises_
> 
> How to lose all desire to develop impeccable piano technique:
> > Play Hanon's _The Virtuoso Pianist in Sixty Exercises_


Haha! Yes, I used this book for about a year, around the time of my Milwaukee competition. Most of it's really unnecessary and excessively tedious. However, it is pedagogically useful in how it starts with basic hand positions without thumb crossing, then moves to thumb crossing, and finally to scales. That is a very effective way to learn how to play scales and runs effectively.


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

In some Ives solo piano music, there are times where there is a distribution of notes physically impossible for one pianist to play, no matter how large the player's hands. 

When asked about those, Ives instantly quipped, "Those are for the page-turner."


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