# Q for German Speakers



## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

I've noticed that in Rosenkavalier when the Marschallin is addressing Octavian, as well as in Wozzeck when the Hauptmann is addressing Wozzeck, it's common to use "er" instead of "Sie" or "du". What's the meaning of this? (I mean, I know er means "he" - I'm wondering what it implies that both the Marschallin and the Hauptmann would commonly say "he does this" when they mean "you do this".) Any ideas?


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## Andreas (Apr 27, 2012)

"Er" signifies a (somewhat polite) way of addressing someone of a lower social standing. It might be used when "du" would be either too personal (since it's used among friends or equals) or too impolite, and when "Sie" would be too respectful or distanced. "Er" indicates a kind of half-distance. Given that the Marschallin and Octavian are lovers, or bedfellows, her use of "er" seems to imply that she's keeping a certain (emotional) distance between them.


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

Andreas said:


> "Er" signifies a (somewhat polite) way of addressing someone of a lower social standing. It might be used when "du" would be either too personal (since it's used among friends or equals) or too impolite, and when "Sie" would be too respectful or distanced. "Er" indicates a kind of half-distance. Given that the Marschallin and Octavian are lovers, or bedfellows, her use of "er" seems to imply that she's keeping a certain (emotional) distance between them.


Would that still ever be used nowadays or is it archaic?


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## deggial (Jan 20, 2013)

Is Octavian not also of lower social standing? he's a count, she's a princess of sorts. Just curious, as I'm quite vague on these degrees of nobility.


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## Andreas (Apr 27, 2012)

mamascarlatti said:


> Would that still ever be used nowadays or is it archaic?


It was used perhaps until the early 20th century, but it's become totally archaic since.


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## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

Very informative! Thanks Andreas.


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

Andreas said:


> It was used perhaps until the early 20th century, but it's become totally archaic since.


Thanks! I am reasonably fluent in (current) German, and this use was totally new to me.


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## Ebab (Mar 9, 2013)

deggial said:


> Is Octavian not also of lower social standing? he's a count, she's a princess of sorts. Just curious, as I'm quite vague on these degrees of nobility.


I would agree with what Andreas has indicated: the Marschallin is keeping Octavian at a certain emotional distance. I'm not sure whether von Hofmannsthal is trying to reconstruct the precise forms of address according to Baroque etiquette (_complicated_, to say the least), or trying to communicate that emotional message to his contemporary audience (I would rather assume the latter).


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