# ABC Classic FM top 100 symphonies (follow-up post)



## Fsharpmajor (Dec 14, 2008)

Andre posted about this when the event was being held. The list has since appeared in Wikipedia; I ran across it by accident. Here's the link:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classic_100_Symphony_(ABC)


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## Tapkaara (Apr 18, 2006)

That is such a hilarious list. I can't stop laughing.


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## rojo (May 26, 2006)

I gather that the list doesn't resemble your own, Tapkaara? lol


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## TresPicos (Mar 21, 2009)

I was actually a bit surprised by the outcome. I didn't expect that:

- Beethoven's 7th would beat his 5th (I disapprove)
- Beethoven's Pastoral symphony would beat his 5th (I approve)
- Beethoven would have 5 of the top 10 spots (I strongly disapprove)
- Mozart wouldn't make the top 10 (undecided)
- Beethoven would have 8 of his symphonies on the top 100 (I strongly disapprove)
- the Beethoven symphony that wouldn't make it would be his 1st, which is one of his best (I disapprove)
- Beethoven's 2nd or 8th symphonies would make the top 100 (I strongly disapprove)
- Schubert's 9th would be on the top 10 but not his 8th (I approve)
- Saint-Saëns would make the top 10 (undecided)
- Mahler would have the greatest number of symphonies on the list (undecided)
- Sibelius would have all his symphonies on the list (undecided)
- Dvorak would win (undecided)


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## Tapkaara (Apr 18, 2006)

rojo said:


> I gather that the list doesn't resemble your own, Tapkaara? lol


Well, I don't have a list. (I generally don't believe in them.) But you are right: if I did have one, this would not be what it looked like.

There are some weird additions and rankings here. Obviously compiled by people who don't know much about classical music. (They probably think the Saint-Saens Organ Symphony is a "song.")


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## Artemis (Dec 8, 2007)

Tapkaara said:


> Obviously compiled by people who don't know much about classical music.


It's merely a list of favourite symphonies of the listeners of Australia's ABC Classic FM radio station, as far as I know.


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## Tapkaara (Apr 18, 2006)

Artemis said:


> It's merely a list of favourite symphonies of the listeners of Australia's ABC Classic FM radio station, as far as I know.


Well, if it's a list of "favorite" symphonies, I can be more forgiving. But if it's another quaint attempt at scientifically catagorizing the "greatest" symphonies, it's a failed list of a failed concept.


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## Artemis (Dec 8, 2007)

Tapkaara said:


> Well, if it's a list of "favorite" symphonies, I can be more forgiving. But if it's another quaint attempt at scientifically catagorizing the "greatest" symphonies, it's a failed list of a failed concept.


It's simply the result of a vote. This topic was discussed in more detail on a couple of previous threads. The really shocking thing is that Haydn scored so poorly.


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## Lukecash12 (Sep 21, 2009)

Wow, no mention of Scriabin at all, and Haydn actually got 100 when Glass got 99! Even if Glass might seem great to some folks, is he better than the godfather of the symphony? Haydn did write over *100*. Balderdash, I say!


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## Artemis (Dec 8, 2007)

Lukecash12 said:


> Wow, no mention of Scriabin at all, and Haydn actually got 100 when Glass got 99! Even if Glass might seem great to some folks, is he better than the godfather of the symphony? Haydn did write over *100*. Balderdash, I say!


Here's one of the previous threads and my comments on the results:

http://www.talkclassical.com/5861-top-100-symphonies-predict.html#post72595


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## MusicalOffering (Sep 11, 2009)

1: Dvorak (like the ninth, but no)
2: Beethoven 9 (another nine, a very nice piece, still undecided to whether it deserves the second spot)
3: Beethoven 6 (like it, but the 3:d by LvB would have suited the third placing better)
4: Saint-Saens (A nice piece but not a big fan of late romantic compositions in general)
5: Beethoven 7 (Another nice Beethoven composition but not no 5 in the world if you ask me).

I must say that I was rather surprised to see that LvB:s 9:th didn't make the first spot, it was also quite interesting to note that the fifth didn't even make the top five. As usuall, people tend to overlook the classic period pieces, it's not until at 12:th place that we find a pure classic composition (not counting Schubert). If you ask me, Mozart's 41:st should definatly be in the top 10, use of contrapunt in symphonic works are among the most rewarding experiences in music.


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## Lukecash12 (Sep 21, 2009)

Whatever happened to Avante Garde music!? But I know I'm beating a dead horse...


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## scytheavatar (Aug 27, 2009)

You guys need to get off your high horse and stop moaning just because your favorite underrated symphony isn't as high as you will like it. You can moan about whether or not Dvorak's 9th deserve to top the list while the "superior" Dvořák 8th is at 32th, or about whether the Beethoven 3th should be higher, but overall it's a pretty cookie cutter and predictable list. This is a popularity contest, and the top symphonies in the list are all popular. The only real surprise to me is how high Beethoven's 7th is, I always though that it was not as popular as his 3 5 6 and 9. Beethoven having 5 of the top 10 spots is not a surprise at all when you consider how big his name is; if you do a list of the top piano sonatas he's going to dominate too. Mozart is never going to get into the top 10 when his symphonies are shorter and not as grand as the ones in the top 10. For someone considered on the same level as Mozart and Beethoven Haydn has always been underrated and overlooked, seen as a shallow composer by some, so I am not sure why some of you guys expect him to do better.


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## Tapkaara (Apr 18, 2006)

scytheavatar said:


> You guys need to get off your high horse and stop moaning just because your favorite underrated symphony isn't as high as you will like it. You can moan about whether or not Dvorak's 9th deserve to top the list while the "superior" Dvořák 8th is at 32th, or about whether the Beethoven 3th should be higher, but overall it's a pretty cookie cutter and predictable list. This is a popularity contest, and the top symphonies in the list are all popular. The only real surprise to me is how high Beethoven's 7th is, I always though that it was not as popular as his 3 5 6 and 9. Beethoven having 5 of the top 10 spots is not a surprise at all when you consider how big his name is; if you do a list of the top piano sonatas he's going to dominate too. Mozart is never going to get into the top 10 when his symphonies are shorter and not as grand as the ones in the top 10. For someone considered on the same level as Mozart and Beethoven Haydn has always been underrated and overlooked, seen as a shallow composer by some, so I am not sure why some of you guys expect him to do better.


Who's on their high horse moaning?


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## scytheavatar (Aug 27, 2009)

Tapkaara said:


> Who's on their high horse moaning?


I am not moaning, but I am surprised that people find the results in the list surprising, because it's pretty much a very accurate list of the most popular symphonies out there. Of course popular =/= quality, but what else were you expecting?


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## rojo (May 26, 2006)

Tapkaara said:


> Well, I don't have a list. (I generally don't believe in them.) But you are right: if I did have one, this would not be what it looked like.
> 
> There are some weird additions and rankings here. Obviously compiled by people who don't know much about classical music. (They probably think the Saint-Saens Organ Symphony is a "song.")


Which additions do you find weird?

Btw, perhaps the list was just a strategy to garner ratings for the station. Or maybe it was just so listeners could actively participate in something that usually is passive; listening to the radio. Or maybe it was just for a bit of fun. Who knows.


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## Cortision (Aug 4, 2009)

The merits of a popularity contest for symphonies may be questioned, but I don't think you can argue about introducing more music to more people, which is what this countdown achieved. All 100 symphonies were broadcast in full over the radio, and introduced me, at least, to music I had not heard before. Those of you who have a wider knowledge may find it tiresome, but consider those of us who are yet to fully explore even much of the standards. And look at the bright side - if it seems like a silly list (and almost everyone is bound to think so, considering the wide variety of taste), you can always smile to yourself in a superior way and reflect that you have had a greater opportunity to hear good music than almost anyone else in history!


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## Tapkaara (Apr 18, 2006)

scytheavatar said:


> it's pretty much a very accurate list of the most popular symphonies out there.


On what are you basing the supposed accuracy of this list?


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## Tapkaara (Apr 18, 2006)

rojo said:


> Which additions do you find weird?
> 
> Btw, perhaps the list was just a strategy to garner ratings for the station. Or maybe it was just so listeners could actively participate in something that usually is passive; listening to the radio. Or maybe it was just for a bit of fun. Who knows.


Oh, I could run up and down the list with my opinions of what should be higher, included or not included but I'm not going to go into that. Again, this is not a list of the "greatest" symphonies; it's a list of listeners' favorites of this particular station. I am surprised, I suppose, that Dvorak beats everyone else to number one, and Saint-Saens is number three. Yes, both are popular composers, but their high ranking (especially the Saint-Saens) is just kind of weird. (I'd have thought Beethoven or Mozart would have been number one, but Dvorak??) To me, anyway, it's odd.

I dunno. These lists are put together for fun and are fodder for conversation, as is certainly the case here. They get us talking, and I suppose that's the ultimate point.


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## scytheavatar (Aug 27, 2009)

Tapkaara said:


> On what are you basing the supposed accuracy of this list?


Let me return that question to you: on what are you questioning the popularity of Dvorak's 9th, which has always been overplayed, probably worse than Beethoven's 9th and is a certain contender for most popular symphony ever? Maybe the Organ symphony is a surprise at 4th, but it has always been popular too so I am not sure why it's "wierd" for it to be at 4th. And surely Mozart's Jupiter has never been as popular as the Beethoven symphonies, Dvorak's 9th or the Pathétique?


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## Chi_townPhilly (Apr 21, 2007)

Four of my "fave-10" on in the top 10 of _this_ list.

A while back, we had a "favorite 10 symphonies" thread- I could probably use that thread to create a 'shadow-list,' and see how it compares with the one under discussion.

I don't dislike Saint-Säens' _Organ Symphony_- but on my list, it would struggle for a podium-finish among _Gallic_ symphonies (Fantastique, Franck D Minor...).

My favorite Haydn symphony is #95-- but, hampered by the lack of a neat-o nickname, it doesn't crack the list here.


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## Artemis (Dec 8, 2007)

It may be interesting to compare the Australian results with those from the UK's _Classic FM_ (CFM) annual poll of listeners' favourites. The _Classic FM_ poll covers all genres of classical music, not just symphonies, and very probably it is based on a much larger listening population than the Australian ABC poll.

The CFM poll lists 300 works in total. Confining attention to the results for the top 100 works there are 13 symphonies which are ranked as follows. The number in brackets is the position in the top 100, e.g. Beethoven's Pastoral Symphony was the highest ranked symphony and was in 5th place overall:1. Beethoven 6 (5)​2. Beethoven 9 (9)​3. Saint-Saens 3 (14)​4. Rachmaninov 2 (21)​5. Beethoven 7 (22)​6. Dvorak 9 (24)​7. Beethoven 5 (35)​8. Mahler 5 (45)​9. Tchaikovsky 6 (48)​10. Tchaikovsky 5 (52)​11. Beethoven 3 (61)​12. Sibelius 5 (65)​13. Widor 5 (74)
​I would draw out the following main features:

i. Symphonies account for only 13% of the total listings among the top 100. However, overall, symphonies tend to be rather higher placed than would be suggested by a random process.

ii. Beethoven predominates with 5 of the 13 symphonies.

iii. Again, as in the ABC poll, Dvorak's _New World_ and Saint-Saens _Organ Symphony_ are included in high positions.

iv. Tchaikovsky achieves 2 places, which is broadly consistent with other measures of popularity (e.g. the total of recordings currently list, eg on ArkivMusik).

v. Strangely there is no Mozart symphony listed. This seems strange given other ratings which suggest that Mozart's 39-41 are very popular.

vi. It is also strange that neither of Schubert's masterpieces (9 & 8) is listed. I see that Schubert 9 just scraped into ABC's top 10.

vii. The real oddity is Widor 5.


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## scytheavatar (Aug 27, 2009)

One thing I do find to be surprising is how lowly Brahms's symphonies are rated. From the way classical music fans rave about his music I would have expected his symphonies to do better.

Wow, I just realized that they counted Das Lied von der Erde as a symphony, which meant poor old Mahler 7th has to be the one to be left out.


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## Fsharpmajor (Dec 14, 2008)

There were two things on the list that surprised me, namely Shostakovich's 4th and Tchaikovsky's Manfred symphony. I didn't think either of those were very popular, but it seems I was wrong.


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## Tapkaara (Apr 18, 2006)

scytheavatar said:


> Let me return that question to you: on what are you questioning the popularity of Dvorak's 9th, which has always been overplayed, probably worse than Beethoven's 9th and is a certain contender for most popular symphony ever? Maybe the Organ symphony is a surprise at 4th, but it has always been popular too so I am not sure why it's "wierd" for it to be at 4th. And surely Mozart's Jupiter has never been as popular as the Beethoven symphonies, Dvorak's 9th or the Pathétique?


I am not questioning the popularity of Dvorak's 9th. I am merely saying that I am surprised that it ranks as the most popular on this list. Not surprised that it's on the list. Wouldn't be surprised if it were somewhere in the top 10. But number one? I am just feeling ample amounts of person surprise, that's all, and that hardly equates to me saying this list is inaccurate. You, however, have said this is an accurate list of the popularity of these symphonies, and thus turning the question back on to me makes little (dare I say no) sense because I never made any claims to its accuracy as you have.

So, my question still stands: on what are you basing the accuracy of this list?

If it makes it easier for you, I'll go ahead and explain on what I am basing my surprise.

These classical internet forums are a great place to gather information from (mostly) learned people. These "greatest symphonies" and "greatest symphonist" lists are widespread in these forums. Unless my memory fails me, the top 5 spots usually go to Beethoven, Mozart or Haydn (or others.) Perhaps Dvorak even makes it into the top 5. Certainly Dvorak 9 is often brought up, but I don't recall Dvorak ever beating Beethoven, for example. And that Saint-Saens Organ symphony that has so triumphantly made it to number 3 on this Australian list. I have never seen such a thing in any of the classical forum lists, and I am hardly surprised: Saint-Saes, I'm afraid, as a symphonist, does not belong in any top 10 list as far as I'm concerned; he is nowhere in the same league as Beethoven, Brahms, Tchaikovsky, Shostakovich, or even Dvorak.

But you see, my comments here are all based on personal experience or personal opinion.

So if Dvorak makes number one of this list, he is obviously very popular in Australia. Since this list is a popularity contest, I have no issue with the people picking their general favorite. I may be surprised that they picked him, but it's who they've picked, and that's that!


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## Artemis (Dec 8, 2007)

Tapkaara said:


> And that Saint-Saens Organ symphony that has so triumphantly made it to number 3 on this Australian list. I have never seen such a thing in any of the classical forum lists, and I am hardly surprised: Saint-Saes, I'm afraid, as a symphonist, does not belong in any top 10 list as far as I'm concerned; he is nowhere in the same league as Beethoven, Brahms, Tchaikovsky, Shostakovich, or even Dvorak.


Saint-Saens Organ Symphony is in the No 4 slot in the Australian ABC poll, and at the No 3 spot in the UK's CFM poll (see my previous post in this thread). So, the Australian result for this symphony is by no means unique at the popular, grass-roots level. I bet it's popular in France too.


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## Artemis (Dec 8, 2007)

According to  Netherlands Radio 4  earlier this year, Saint-Saens Organ Symphony is in the No 8 spot among symphonies in their top 400 classical works.


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## Tapkaara (Apr 18, 2006)

Artemis said:


> According to  Netherlands Radio 4  earlier this year, Saint-Saens Organ Symphony is in the No 8 spot among symphonies in their top 400 classical works.


Interesting that it is so popularin these different polls. No one ever talks about it here, nor other places I've been or with other people I have known. I guess I should not be so shocked that Saint-Saens 3 tops these lists, since it apparently has so much universal love.

Very interesting.


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## Artemis (Dec 8, 2007)

It shows how popular tastes vary around the world. Works that may be considered as hopeless cases in one country could be hot favourites in another. It would appear to be the case however that Saint-Saens Organ Symphony has fairly widespread popular appeal, albeit probably not in the North American market. 

Another factor is that there could be a big difference in tastes between the audiences of radio stations and people who venture onto Music Boards like T-C. I would suggest, for example, that what relatively little interest there is in contemporary/avante garde music on Music Boards is vastly greater than is shown in this area by the classical music public at large, which is basically not interested in any of it except possibly a tiny few minimalist works.


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## starry (Jun 2, 2009)

scytheavatar said:


> You guys need to get off your high horse and stop moaning just because your favorite underrated symphony isn't as high as you will like it. You can moan about whether or not Dvorak's 9th deserve to top the list while the "superior" Dvořák 8th is at 32th, or about whether the Beethoven 3th should be higher, but overall it's a pretty cookie cutter and predictable list. This is a popularity contest, and the top symphonies in the list are all popular. The only real surprise to me is how high Beethoven's 7th is, I always though that it was not as popular as his 3 5 6 and 9. Beethoven having 5 of the top 10 spots is not a surprise at all when you consider how big his name is; if you do a list of the top piano sonatas he's going to dominate too. Mozart is never going to get into the top 10 when his symphonies are shorter and not as grand as the ones in the top 10. For someone considered on the same level as Mozart and Beethoven Haydn has always been underrated and overlooked, seen as a shallow composer by some, so I am not sure why some of you guys expect him to do better.


DVorak's 9th has been deservedly his most popular symphony. Some people may feel it is overplayed but it has some of his best tunes and possibly his greatest slow movement. Beethoven's 7th is very popular it's had over a million hits on youtube.



Artemis said:


> It shows how popular tastes vary around the world. Works that may be considered as hopeless cases in one country could be hot favourites in another. It would appear to be the case however that Saint-Saens Organ Symphony has fairly widespread popular appeal, albeit probably not in the North American market.


I think this will be changing now. In the past no doubt people were restricted partly in what they could hear by what was programed for concerts or what records were released in their own country. Now with the internet people have more control over what they can hear and cannot have their tastes dictated to by others quite so easily.


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## starry (Jun 2, 2009)

TresPicos said:


> I was actually a bit surprised by the outcome. I didn't expect that:
> 
> 1- Beethoven's 7th would beat his 5th (I disapprove)
> 2- Beethoven's Pastoral symphony would beat his 5th (I approve)
> ...


On your points, I agree and disagree with you.

1-I agree with you
2-I agree
3-I agree
4-I disapprove of the list and am not undecided.
5-I agree
6-I agree
7-I agree
8- I think both deserve top 100
9-I disapprove
10-I disapprove
11-I approve of the list (maybe), the third may be the least essential nice though it is. The first's last movement is not wholly successful.
12-Doesn't matter, how can you say one symphony is the greatest? Symphonies are very different to each other. It's good, I wouldn't say the greatest.


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## Saturnus (Nov 7, 2006)

Tapkaara said:


> That is such a hilarious list. I can't stop laughing.


Agree, the only choices that make sense are #1 & #100. I don't know of any symphony that has gotten as many non-classical listeners seriously involved in classical music as Dvorak 9.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

I think it's an ok list, with works spanning many styles. It can serve as a good guide for someone wanting to get into classical music.

I was able to listen to some of the broadcasts, and made some re-discoveries, eg. it was the first time I had heard Mahler's _Symphony of a Thousand _in 20 years.

By the way, there have been three other ABC Classic FM top 100's:

Chamber 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classic_100_chamber_(ABC)

Concerto
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classic_100_concerto_(ABC)

Piano
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classic_100_piano_(ABC)

Do people have any ideas as to what should be next? I suppose it has to be something popular and practical for radio. I'm thinking top 100 opera arias. Definitely not top 100 organ!


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## Air (Jul 19, 2008)

Andre said:


> I think it's an ok list, with works spanning many styles. It can serve as a good guide for someone wanting to get into classical music.
> 
> I was able to listen to some of the broadcasts, and made some re-discoveries, eg. it was the first time I had heard Mahler's _Symphony of a Thousand _in 20 years.
> 
> ...


Andre, that piano list is puke. NO late Beethoven sonatas, NO Prokofiev, Medtner, Scriabin, Bartok, or Alkan AT ALL.

If Moonlight Sonata is 1st, Clair de Lune is 3rd, Gymnopedie No. 1 is 4th, Fur Elise is 15th, Jesu Joy of Man's Desiring is 24th, and 4'33" is 40th then you know this list has major problems.

(Not to mention that CHOPSTICKS is 7th.)


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

Yeah, Air, I agree that these lists have their limits (& major flaws). I wasn't advocating them, just putting them out there for people to see. I suppose it boils down to the radio station wanting to draw in it's listeners, who are encouraged to vote their favourites. But I suppose they can't please everyone...


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## MusicalOffering (Sep 11, 2009)

What?! Only one Bach composition on the entire chamber music list, and at 96:th place as well? To regard the Musical Offering so low is to disregard Bach in general. I thought Bach were a popular composer, but it would seem as if the only thing people listen to knowadays is romantic composers.


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## starry (Jun 2, 2009)

MusicalOffering said:


> What?! Only one Bach composition on the entire chamber music list, and at 96:th place as well? To regard the Musical Offering so low is to disregard Bach in general. I thought Bach were a popular composer, but it would seem as if the only thing people listen to knowadays is romantic composers.


The further away something gets the less respected it tends to be perhaps. The baroque and classical periods are not openly copied by music much nowadays while the 'romantic' stye is, because of that I think it may be harder for some to get into what they see as the more formal style of earlier music.


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## scytheavatar (Aug 27, 2009)

MusicalOffering said:


> What?! Only one Bach composition on the entire chamber music list, and at 96:th place as well? To regard the Musical Offering so low is to disregard Bach in general. I thought Bach were a popular composer, but it would seem as if the only thing people listen to knowadays is romantic composers.


I am not sure if The Musical Offering, or any Baroque era music for that matter, can be considered a chamber music piece. It's more like a proto-chamber music piece and lacks the chamber music nature that was created by Haydn.


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## Mr Dull (Mar 14, 2009)

This thread has been of great interest in the way it highlights the difference between the forum users and the radio listeners. 
I don't know what ABC classic FM is like but Classic FM in the UK is very much focused popular classics (See the thread about classical music is not relaxing for an example). To be very condescending it is aimed at people who like the pretty music. Users of this forum are interested in the music, listen to widely varied types of classical music and pay attention to it. 
Its not surprising listeners polls focus on well known and easily accessible music because that's what they are fed and expect to hear. 
On a lighter note the Saint-Saens was turned into a pop hit years ago when someone added words and turned it into a duet. This could be why it has inserted itself into the popular consciousness?


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## Argus (Oct 16, 2009)

MusicalOffering said:


> What?! Only one Bach composition on the entire chamber music list, and at 96:th place as well? To regard the Musical Offering so low is to disregard Bach in general. I thought Bach were a popular composer, but it would seem as if the only thing people listen to knowadays is romantic composers.


Bach is probably as popular now as he ever was, in terms of the amount of people that listen to and enjoy his music. I hear a Bach piece on the radio most days and I don't listen to the radio that much, only in the car or if I know beforhand a good programme is on. The same goes for other baroque composers especially Handel, Vivaldi, Scarlatti and Purcell. Radio 3 has been airing Handel operas in the afternoon every week for a few months now and I remember hearing a Domenico Scarlatti harpsichord sonata nearly every morning for about a month a while ago. Not to mention classical composers like Haydn and Mozart. The main reason I can see for the Romantic styles popularity is that much golden age film music is in that style.

In regards to the list, I see nothing wrong with it apart from it being pointless. At least it generates discussions about classial music.


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## jhar26 (Jul 6, 2008)

Fsharpmajor said:


> Andre posted about this when the event was being held. The list has since appeared in Wikipedia; I ran across it by accident. Here's the link:
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classic_100_Symphony_(ABC)


It's not a bad list. Everyone will argue that this symphony should be ranked lower and another one should be higher, while some shouldn't be on there, and why is symphony No.5 from Giovanni Adagiovich not included, and so on...you always get that. But for someone who knows nothing about classical music and wants to check out some symphonies this list is a pretty good starting point.


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## GraemeG (Jun 30, 2009)

Tapkaara said:


> I am not questioning the popularity of Dvorak's 9th. I am merely saying that I am surprised that it ranks as the most popular on this list. Not surprised that it's on the list. Wouldn't be surprised if it were somewhere in the top 10. But number one? I am just feeling ample amounts of person surprise, that's all, and that hardly equates to me saying this list is inaccurate. You, however, have said this is an accurate list of the popularity of these symphonies, and thus turning the question back on to me makes little (dare I say no) sense because I never made any claims to its accuracy as you have.
> 
> So, my question still stands: on what are you basing the accuracy of this list?
> 
> ...


You are contradicting yourself a lot here! You accept it's a popular list, but can't understand why it differs from those complied by experts rating works on 'greatness'? Really?
1) It's a popularity contest, that's all. Listeners were surveyed; the list is the result. No-one's pretenting that it's a list composed on any sort of merit other than poppularity. Your entire paragraph "These classical internet forums ..." is irrelevant. The 'greatest' doesn't come into it.
2) Dvorak's 9th is carried to the top on the strength of the adagio. Surely you reaslise that? I wouldn't be surprised if some of the people voting for it had never heard the other movements before. But I could be a snob in that regard. 
3) Saint-Seans 3 - interesting to see it occupied a similar (symphonic) place in the UK survey - is probably picked up by the fact of the finale's big tune being used in the film 'Babe' (pig-sheepdog triumphs over the odds, remember?) This was a locally made movie, and a very big hit (did well worldwide too).
4) ABC-FM (Classic-FM) in Australia is NOT a commercial station. It's the "serious-music" arm of ABC Radio, which is Australia's version of the BBC or NPR. The presenters are mostly musicians, very erudite, very professional. Morning and Drive-time programmes tend to be bits and pieces, but the station still does lots of live concert broadcasts of Australian symphony orchestras, sponsor live chamber concerts from their own studios, broadcasts *complete* operas (yes, even Wagner); in short, while a bit more beginner-friendly than, say, 20 years ago, it is not 'dumbed-down, hooked-on-classics-for-the-masses' affair.
5) They've run plenty of Top-100s before: the initial one was an "open" event (in 2000, or 2002?), they then did "100 Opera Moments", 100 Piano, 100 Mozart, 100 Chamber, 100 Concerto, now 100 Symphony. Always just "your favourite". During the broadcasts they're at pains to point out that the list has no scientific validity, it's just a bit of fun, and gets people interested and listening. Full lists of all past events are on their website.

Popularity is relatively easy to predict. When they were playing Mahler 3 (ranked 39th) I sat down and correctly predicted the remaining 38 works. I also put them in what I thought the sequence would be, and across all 38 works, I was out by an (absolute) average of 5 places. I picked seven of the top 10, and 17 of the top 20. All you need is a sense of the popular, and a memory of what's been stolen / borrowed / a surprise(Gorecki) over the last 20 years, and -bingo- there's your list!
cheers,
Graeme


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## TresPicos (Mar 21, 2009)

Andre said:


> I think it's an ok list, with works spanning many styles. It can serve as a good guide for someone wanting to get into classical music.
> 
> I was able to listen to some of the broadcasts, and made some re-discoveries, eg. it was the first time I had heard Mahler's _Symphony of a Thousand _in 20 years.
> 
> ...


While I do like to see Schubert beat Beethoven, I must say that dear Franz does not deserve four out of the top five spots on the "100 chamber" list.


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## Fsharpmajor (Dec 14, 2008)

Andre said:


> Do people have any ideas as to what should be next? I suppose it has to be something popular and practical for radio. I'm thinking top 100 opera arias. Definitely not top 100 organ!


How about top 100 minimalist works? That would be interesting....


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## Tapkaara (Apr 18, 2006)

GraemeG said:


> You are contradicting yourself a lot here!


Poppycock!


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## Chi_townPhilly (Apr 21, 2007)

Mr Dull said:


> This thread has been of great interest in the way it highlights the difference between the forum users and the radio listeners.


To further highlight the variance, I thought I'd run a comparison between this list and a composite list based on this thread.

Now, in _that_ thread, someone earlier attempted some methodology concerning weighting (see here). Now, I think that the weighting applied there is based on conceptual imprecision- I can't support a system that values one's favorite symphony _ten times_ more than one's tenth-favorite symphony. I think a more sensible weighting would be c. a 2% reduction with each step.

I'll be back in touch, to let you know how it all worked out.


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## Lukecash12 (Sep 21, 2009)

Chi_town/Philly said:


> To further highlight the variance, I thought I'd run a comparison between this list and a composite list based on this thread.
> 
> Now, in _that_ thread, someone earlier attempted some methodology concerning weighting (see here). Now, I think that the weighting applied there is based on conceptual imprecision- I can't support a system that values one's favorite symphony _ten times_ more than one's tenth-favorite symphony. I think a more sensible weighting would be c. a 2% reduction with each step.
> 
> I'll be back in touch, to let you know how it all worked out.


Thank you for the clear thinking. That sounds like an interesting list to look at. Sadly, I probably won't find Scriabin, Janacek, Lyapunov, Sorabji, Pierne, or Kuhnau up there


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