# Help me like Mozart!



## BillT (Nov 3, 2013)

I love many composers but Mozart is not one of them. I have always found his music dry and unemotional, even when knowledgeable people explain to me how great it is.

I have been hoping for many years that I would have an epiphany at some point (as I have had for other composers) but that hasn't happened and there are quite a few candles on the birthday cake now. So I have decided to try to like Mozart, with a little success.

I started with the Piano Concerti as someone on this board suggested and I do like some (#23, #19). I have even found myself wanting to listen to them on occasion.

What should I try next (that is on YouTube)? I heard the Sinfonia Concertante was good. I heard some string quartets this morning at a lecture / concert (one concert of a two-year sequence here in SF) and I liked the D minor quartet K. 421 but the G Major K. 387 -- not so much. I fell asleep.

I am beginning to realize that expectations play a large role here. I am used to emotionally charged music like the Romantics or Bach. I'm trying to listen for the more subtle changes.

TC has been very helpful and I hope someone will find this an interesting topic! 

Thanks,

Bill


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## violadude (May 2, 2011)

Are you okay with operas? I suggest Mozart's operas not only because they are considered some of his greatest masterpieces, but the dramatic elements of opera might help you connect Mozart's music with emotions more readily.

How about Don Giovanni?






In case you don't know German, here are the words.

http://mrwolfgangamadeusmozart.blogspot.com/2010/07/don-giovanni-libretto-english.html


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

I suggest Mozart's two best sacred choral works - Requiem and Great Mass in C minor. Emotions run deep in these works.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Hey! Wet and emotional Mozart, where ya been Haydn???


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## Blake (Nov 6, 2013)

You don't have to like the Wolf... don't feel bad. Though he's done some amazing things that you don't see - like the quintets, piano concerti, late symphonies... but yea... don't feel bad.


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## Vinyl (Jan 22, 2014)

Great mass in C.


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## Judy with bow (Jan 26, 2014)

Mozart was never a favorite until I saw Amadeus. Since then I have been hooked on the Requiem.


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## Dustin (Mar 30, 2012)

These are all great recommendations but like you already mentioned yourself, make sure you hear the Sinfonia Concertante. I truly can't even comprehend how something so good could be composed.


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## dgee (Sep 26, 2013)

The 40 and 41 Symphonies are quite emotionally charged to my ears. Maybe the the 20 and 24 piano concertos (both in minor keys - glad to see you enjoyed 23 as its a pinnacle of sort imho). Don't go the operas unless opera is for you - how about the Requiem?

There'll probably be some dissenting voices, but I suggest looking into more historically informed newer recordings including period instrument performances - there's more drive and a racier style to my ears. Older recordings can be chocolate box pretty or a bit too steady to really give you a good sense of what's happening. Mozart didn't really get me in a big way until I started listening to HIPP recordings


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## hreichgott (Dec 31, 2012)

+1 to the recommendations of Symphony no. 40, Requiem and Mass in C minor.
Also the Piano Sonata K. 310 in A minor.


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## BillT (Nov 3, 2013)

dgee said:


> Mozart didn't really get me in a big way until I started listening to HIPP recordings


What is a "HIPP" recording? I have seen other TC'ers use this term.

I should have mentioned that I love the Requiem! It's the only Mozart piece that I love -- so far, anyway.


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## ahammel (Oct 10, 2012)

BillT said:


> What is a "HIPP" recording? I have seen other TC'ers use this term.


HIP = historically informed performance (typically involving period instruments and somebody's idea of what performance practices were like in the 18th century).

The piano concertos and the string quintets are his other important cycles, aside from the operas. Maybe give the G-minor quintet and the D-minor and C-minor concertos a spin (I find his minor key stuff appeals to beginners).


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## spradlig (Jul 25, 2012)

I used to not like Mozart either, but I do now.

I recommend the Sinfonia Concertante for violin and viola.

Also his sinfonia concertante for four winds and orchestra (K 297b). There is some doubt about whether he wrote it, but to me, it seems like such a masterpiece that I find it hard to believe anyone else did (I'm not an expert, but from what I've heard, he was a better composer than any of his contemporaries).

He wrote many great piano concertos. Unfortunately I don't know their numbers offhand. I think most of them are in a major key, but there is at least one great one that starts in a minor key.


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## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

Ha. Ha. Ha. I empathize COMPLETELY.

I was weened in my teens and twenties on Prokofiev, Shostakovich, Bax, Respighi, Wagner, Ravel, Berlioz, Debussy, Rozsa, Sibelius, Vaughan Williams, Liszt, Rachmaninov, Bruckner, Korngold, et-Romantic-alia, ad nauseam.

I NEVER thought I'd like Mozart.

---And then it just hit me in my mid-thirties like a ton of bricks. I was listening to the Mutter/Previn/Muller-Schott Mozart Piano Trio in E Major, K. 542. . . and I just thought the thing was the most delightful thing in the world.

And then it started: the operas, the piano sonatas, the symphonies, the masses-- I could never get enough; and still can't. Mozart's music was elusive for me; I think because my binary 'either-or,' 'this-or-that,' 'black-or-white' mind set was trying to equate everything that was 'good' with "Romantic period composers."

Have you heard Anne Sophie Mutter's Mozart? The Sinfonia concertante for Violin, Viola and Orchestra in E flat, K.364?-- This was, as you'd put it, an 'epiphanic' Mozart moment for me too. MUTTER'S performance of it especially, with all its aggressive beauty.


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## Weston (Jul 11, 2008)

Well, I am seeing 60 rapidly approaching and I must say, while I started out not liking Mozart at all, I've turned that around after decades of trying. Now he just manages not to have me going for the skip button, but barely so.

Have you tried A Musical Joke? It is what it says it is.

For some reason I have found this seldom mentioned Concerto for flute and harp in C, K. 299  more palatable than a lot of the warhorses. Maybe the harp sound makes it more interesting.

And of course I'm always pushing the Symphony No. 39, movement 3 if it's played at a fast enough tempo as it is here, starting around 20:44.

Still, I usually stick with Haydn and Kraus when I'm wanting music from this time period.


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## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

OK, if you can keep a secret... If you listen to K.475, and immediately follow it with a certain sonata, the meaning of life will be revealed to you. I can't tell you which sonata, because you have to earn the right to know the meaning of life - and you need to be strong to handle the knowledge, so bear that in mind.


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## StlukesguildOhio (Dec 25, 2006)

I love many composers but Mozart is not one of them. I have always found his music dry and unemotional...

Your primary problems include the assumption that:

*A. Emotion exists within the work of music.*- You, the audience bring an emotional response to the work of music. A given work by Beethoven or Mahler may strike you as profoundly moving... yet a teenager reveling in Justin Bieber and Lady Gaga may find absolutely notion moving whatsoever... but rather, may likely find the work simply "boring" or "irritating". Criticisms such as "boring", "too long", "too short", "lacking emotion" say more about the audience than the work of art

*B. The primary goal of music is to express emotions.*- The values and standards of Romanticism have dominated the thinking of art lovers for generations. Complaints concerning the "lack of emotions" in Mozart and Haydn in comparison to Beethoven, Wagner, Brahms, and Mahler are common fare on any number of classical music discussion sites. By the same token, many literature lovers embrace Romantic poets like Blake, Keats, Shelley, etc... yet struggle with Pope, Robert Herrick, Marvell, etc... I even see the same with regard to painting where Neo-Classicists like Ingres and J.L. David, as well as Rococo painters like Boucher, Watteau, and Fragonard are afforded far less admiration than Romantics like Goya, Turner, Delacroix and their heirs. The problem is that the artists of the 18th century had no desire to "wear their hearts on their sleeve". Public display of gushing emotions was considered crass. Wit, sophistication, humor, and elegance were more valued. Judging a work of art demands that the audience consider the intentions of the artist and the society and culture in which he or she worked... the goals, ideals, and standards that they aimed for. One might just as well criticize Modernist Matisse or Mark Rothko for their lack of the same mastery of human anatomy that was a central ideal/goal/standard of the High Renaissance.

*C. Tragedy, Sadness, Anxiety, and such are more "profound" than emotions such as Joy, Delight, Humor or playfulness.* In actuality, the ability to inspire Joy or Sadness are of equal merit. By no measure is Renoir's expression of joy or contentment or poetic delight in his portrait of Monet's Wife:










... inherently inferior to Goya's image of fear and horror, Saturn Devouring his Children:










Let's face it, both Renoir and Goya... like most all artists... were intelligent enough to realize that certain subjects, certain colors, certain uses of light result in conveying a certain emotional impact. If the ability to convey the depths of tragedy and loss were the standard of great art and the expression of joy or humor were far inferior, why would any artist waste his of her time painting flowers, or beautiful landscapes, or lovely women? It isn't the subject matter or content that matters... but rather the brilliance, originality, etc... of the artistic form through which this is achieved.

Returning to Mozart... there is no way that I or anyone else can help you like Mozart... no matter the strength or logic of their arguments, anymore than there is any way you can help me like liver and onions or lima beans by informing me as to the nutritional value of such.

Having said as much... I will suggest, that Mozart is one of those composers with such an incredibly diverse oeuvre that given time and experience you just may find yourself liking something by him. Coming from you base of the "emotionally charged" music of the Baroque, I would suggest you begin with works such as the Requiem, the Mass in C minor, Don Giovanni, the Ave Verum Corpus, the Serenade for Winds in C minor, K. 388, the Adagio and Fugue in C minor, the Masonic Funeral Music, etc...


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## Cosmos (Jun 28, 2013)

DON'T DO IT, IT'S A TRAP!!!!!!!

but seriously you should check out his Symphony 25 in g minor, Symphony 40 in g minor, and Symphony 41 in C Major. Also, check out his Requiem, his opera The Magic Flute, and his String Quintets


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## Headphone Hermit (Jan 8, 2014)

St Luke (above) makes valid points

there are some excellent suggestions made by previous contributors, but if after listening to them you find you are still unmoved, then let go for a little while but keep an open mind for the future (many of us had a block on a composer for a long time until eventually it clicked into place). Then again, it might never happen - just as in food, so we can all have different tastes (I can't stand spinnach, no matter what is done with it .... and I've tried hundreds of recipes so I'll pick something else from the menu and be happy that others like the stuff!)


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## Aramis (Mar 1, 2009)

> Help me like Mozart!


And how did Mozart help you?


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## Kieran (Aug 24, 2010)

Anything with a piano in it, more or less. And anything with the word "concerto" attached. Piano concertos are a must, doesn't matter where you start, they're all exclusive gems. The Sinfonia Concertante is the type of music I'd love to keep to myself alone and never have to share with a single soul - but it's already out there so what ya gonna do? Go for it! It's a gorgeous concerto for violin and viola, and others have recommended it in this thread, so you're getting in on the groundfloor on this one.

He has magnificent sonatas, but really, the three conversion works I'll mention, the ones to bring you in, are these:

*K466, piano concerto #20 *

This is the default setting for the genre. A dark foreboding work that never loses its actual beauty. It's been a companion of mine for more than 2 decades and again today it got a spin while I was cooking and it hasn't diminished by even a single note, nor has it stopped yielding up the goodies.

*K551, Symphony #41, The Jupiter*

The most formidable and enterprising symphonic work of the Classical era. This is orchestral music at its most advanced and accomplished, he has dialogues, jokes and stress fractures all within the space of a few bars. Famous for its 4th movement, the one where he introduces so many themes concurrently that I've seen experts scrap over the exact number of them. Is there 5? Or is there 7?

*K364, Sinfonia Concertante*

As mentioned above, the concerto for violin and viola. The blurb on the kerb suggests he composed this for himself (viola) and his father (violin) to play, just before he departed from Salzburg, as a sort of instrumental requiem for Wolfie's beloved mother. I don't know about that, but you could hear it that way, and many others, and get something profound from it.

There so much to enjoy in Mozart, music at its most joyous, moody and ethereal, and sometimes this all happens in the space of sixty seconds. Go for it, and enjoy!

:tiphat:


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## Morimur (Jan 23, 2014)

No one is obligated to like Mozart's music. However, one should at least acknowledge that the man was a genius, regardless of musical preference.


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## Guest (Jan 26, 2014)

BillT said:


> I love many composers but Mozart is not one of them. I have always found his music dry and unemotional, even when knowledgeable people explain to me how great it is.


Try these:

K 361 Serenade No 10 "gran partita"
K 364 Sinfonia Concertante for Violin & Viola 
K 452 Quintet for piano & winds
K 466 Piano Concerto No 20
K 516 String Quintet No 4 in G minor
K 550 Symphony No 40
K 551 Symphony No 41
K 581 Clarinet quintet
K 620 Clarinet concerto
K 626 Requiem

..

Honestly I think you will like these. They are absolutely wonderful works. Maybe start with K 551, the final movement of which is amazing. Possibly K 452 may take a little while to get used to it, but it's also a magnificent work.

I have never wavered in my immense admiration of of Mozart. His work is so polished and perfect. I sincerely hope you come come back and say you like him. Don't give up as it's worth the effort.

Would you like some recommendations regarding versions?


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## Vinyl (Jan 22, 2014)

Mozart is annoying. It's so easy to write him off for mass producing formula music (you just know that it's time for that cadential trill again), and then suddenly you hear someone sing Exsultate Jubilate or Et Incarnatus Est (Sylvia McNair, perhaps?) or you hear the slow movement of the 23rd for piano or perhaps simply that cheeky ending to the 5th vioin concerto, and he's back on top. With a margin. Annoying.


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

I can not. I can tell you that the height of classicism included the aesthetic of restraint, not outwardly or directly expressing yourself, one embodiment of that ideal is in this now well-known cliche maxim of "_*Tension in Repose*_," and at the same time the opposite of that is what Mozart was criticized for by his contemporary critics, i.e. "wearing his heart on his sleeve"... (he was also thought 'far too dissonant,' all those minor thirds, ya know.)

That in hand, without any need to revise yourself, but instead looking to detect and perceive far less dramatic or immediate (to you) 'expression' within Mozart's works.

Context is everything, always, and if you give some works time, a small thematic surprise after a long discourse within a piece may have you absolutely amazed at how it hits you 'emotionally.'

Best regards.


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## Guest (Jan 26, 2014)

Vinyl said:


> Mozart is annoying. It's so easy to write him off for mass producing formula music (you just know that it's time for that cadential trill again), and then suddenly you hear someone sing Exsultate Jubilate or Et Incarnatus Est (Sylvia McNair, perhaps?) or you hear the slow movement of the 23rd for piano or perhaps simply that cheeky ending to the 5th vioin concerto, and he's back on top. With a margin. Annoying.


This is not in the slightest degree an attempt to answer the OP. No one has asked for your negative opinion on Mozart. If you think that what you have described is typical of Mozart's music may I suggest that you are completely mistaken and you might try to broaden your exposure to a wider range of Mozart's music than what you may have heard only on elevators.


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## Vinyl (Jan 22, 2014)

I was trying to be funny. 
An obvious fail. 

I actually have quite a positive opinion on Mozart.


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## Kieran (Aug 24, 2010)

Vinyl said:


> Mozart is annoying. It's so easy to write him off for mass producing formula music (you just know that it's time for that cadential trill again), and then suddenly you hear someone sing Exsultate Jubilate or Et Incarnatus Est (Sylvia McNair, perhaps?) or you hear the slow movement of the 23rd for piano or perhaps simply that cheeky ending to the 5th vioin concerto, and he's back on top. With a margin. Annoying.


I don't even know what any of this means...


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## Vinyl (Jan 22, 2014)

Allow me to apologize, then. 
The four works I mentioned in my awful attemt at humour above are among the ones I feel are very safe to recommend. 
I don't *actually* find Mozart annoying.


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

Vinyl said:


> I was trying to be funny.
> An obvious fail.
> 
> I actually have quite a positive opinion on Mozart.


"I'm trying!"
"Yes... very."

It seems it proved more trying to folks than funny.


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## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

Vinyl said:


> I was trying to be funny.
> An obvious fail.
> 
> I actually have quite a positive opinion on Mozart.


You were successfully whimsical - to me. When body language is not available, whimsy is apt to be too subtle for some.


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## Kieran (Aug 24, 2010)

Vinyl said:


> I was trying to be funny.
> An obvious fail.
> 
> I actually have quite a positive opinion on Mozart.


Ah, apologies, vinyl, I didn't see this. Unfortunately your joke went _whooosh _over my head! :lol:


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

Kieran said:


> Ah, apologies, vinyl, I didn't see this. Unfortunately your joke went _whooosh _over my head! :lol:


Not helped by a post I thought was genuine, where someone did ask if anyone else found Mozart's cadential trills seriously annoying. Who gets hung up on cadential trills?


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## stevederekson (Jan 5, 2014)

I second the Great Mass in C.

The first movement (Kyrie) under Leonard Bernstein is very powerful.


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## Weston (Jul 11, 2008)

Vinyl said:


> Mozart is annoying. It's so easy to write him off for mass producing formula music (you just know that it's time for that cadential trill again), and then suddenly you hear someone sing Exsultate Jubilate or Et Incarnatus Est (Sylvia McNair, perhaps?) or you hear the slow movement of the 23rd for piano or perhaps simply that cheeky ending to the 5th vioin concerto, and he's back on top. With a margin. Annoying.


Must be a cultural thing. I understood the intent of this post perfectly.


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## trazom (Apr 13, 2009)

The Coronation mass is as good as the Requiem and C minor mass. I don't get why people group the 25th symphony with his last two, just because it's a minor key work. It doesn't even compare in quality to the Prague or 39th symphony, both of which are in the must-listen-to category.

Also, some of the violin sonatas are exceptional and have very uncharacteristic piano writing. like this one:


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

"Not being able to like Mozart" is just symptomatic of a much larger problem which must be adressed. There is a lot of work ahead. It won't be easy, but we are here for support.


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

millionrainbows said:


> "Not being able to like Mozart" is just symptomatic of a much larger problem which must be addressed. There is a lot of work ahead. It won't be easy, but we are here for support.


You mean that basic business of, "If you don't like Mozart, you don't get music?" :lol:


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## Weston (Jul 11, 2008)

I found another two cents in my pocket to contribute. Though I usually pay far less attention to the performer / interpreter of a piece than to the composer, I've found with Mozart interpretation makes a huge difference, especially to someone more familiar with Beethoven or the romantics, like me. Mitsuko Uchida for instance can make the most saccharine of Mozart pieces seem suddenly transcendent and sublime.


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## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

Weston said:


> I found another two cents in my pocket to contribute. Though I usually pay far less attention to the performer / interpreter of a piece than to the composer, I've found with Mozart interpretation makes a huge difference, especially to someone more familiar with Beethoven or the romantics, like me. Mitsuko Uchida for instance can make the most saccharine of Mozart pieces seem suddenly transcendent and sublime.


There is no possibility that you have it backwards? That Uchida is playing the music straight that other performers have made 'saccharine'?

Much of Mozart's piano music has suffered the same treatment that Chopin's has.?.


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## ahammel (Oct 10, 2012)

Weston said:


> I found another two cents in my pocket to contribute. Though I usually pay far less attention to the performer / interpreter of a piece than to the composer, I've found with Mozart interpretation makes a huge difference, especially to someone more familiar with Beethoven or the romantics, like me. Mitsuko Uchida for instance can make the most saccharine of Mozart pieces seem suddenly transcendent and sublime.


I generally find with Mozart that the best approach is a straightforward one.


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## Vinyl (Jan 22, 2014)

One more thing, and just so there's no misunderstanding: The following is a completely serious, honest attempt at helping the OP find some Mozart to enjoy: 

There is one short piece that Mozart wrote for the funeral of two of his fellow Freemasons, which is remarkably un-Mozart-like. 
The ensemble is odd, and in both sentiment and structure he deviates from much of his other works, and before I get too wordy here I believe I can say that it has a certain ahead-of-its-time thing going on. Chord progressions you're not used to from Mozart. Yet hauntingly beautiful. 

Maurerische Trauermusik, C minor, K477.


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## Berlioznestpasmort (Jan 24, 2014)

I think it's worthwhile to remember that not everyone thinks Mozart is the cat's meow. Glenn Gould was one of these and I have to say that I can sympathize. There is at times a facile quality about Mozart (perhaps it's that that spawned the likely apocryphal Emperor Joseph complaint that he writes "too many notes." However, what's facile for some is for others (most others) Mozart's great melodic facility. Personally, I gravitate to his later work (eg: the Linz, Jupiter, and Gm symphonies, and the Requiem). Try to see staged productions of the operas - remember they are part theater.


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## starry (Jun 2, 2009)

ahammel said:


> I generally find with Mozart that the best approach is a straightforward one.


Agreed. I was about to keep out of this thread, but I had to say that I am not pro-Ushida.


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## Vesteralen (Jul 14, 2011)

It would be nice if some of the suggestions above end up being of help to the OP in reaching his stated goal.

I remain cynical as always on these recommendation threads. We are all different. If someone recommended Mozart's Symphony #41, for example, as a first attempt to get me to like Mozart, I'd probably conclude the whole attempt was worthless. Great a piece of music as it no doubt is, I've never liked it. Why? I can't tell you. I have no idea.

I'd recommend the 39th, if I was of a mind to recommend anything. But, I'm totally prepared to accept the fact that another listener might be equally turned off by it as I am by the 41st.

I've always made my own musical journeys without advice from others. I say that, not to discourage people from asking for or offering advice, but just to encourage listeners not to give up, even if well-meant advice doesn't "do it" for them.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

I suggest the Adagio and Fugue in C minor (SONY remaster)*ASIN:* B00BRKZ066
It features Yo-Yo ma.
When listening to this piece, think *"darkness, ahh, darkness." *Try turning all the lights out and listening to it with a single candle. Realize that Mozart had a dark side, and that you do as well. Try to invoke this darkness in any way possible. Create the mood, and listen in a concentrated, reverential way, and realize that this music is a key, a catalyst, a doorway into the nether regions of the human soul.


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## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

*Klemperer's Choice of Singers for Die Zauberflote Makes Mozart All the More Alluring*









I'll say from the outset that I'm not a huge Klemperer fan; but I am a fan of silver-throated virtuosity-- so I bought this early-sixties incarnation of Die Zauberflote just to hear how ravashingl souding the singers would be.

I wasn't disappointed.

Lucia Popp (Queen of the Night), Gundula Janowitz (Pamina)-- predictably gorgeousl; and the harmonizing and blending of Elizabeth Schwarzkopf, Christa Ludwig, Marga Hoffgen (as the attendants to the Queen)?-- HEA-VEN.

Klemperer has slower tempi in this; but with THOSE singers?-- where you can really hear them open up and strut their stuff?-- It WORKS.

Love it. Love it. Love it.


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

ahammel said:


> I generally find with Mozart that the best approach is a straightforward one.


What composer's music worth anything at all needs any extramusical injections to make it work? LOL.


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## BillT (Nov 3, 2013)

trazom said:


> The Coronation mass is as good as the Requiem and C minor mass. I don't get why people group the 25th symphony with his last two, just because it's a minor key work. It doesn't even compare in quality to the Prague or 39th symphony, both of which are in the must-listen-to category.
> 
> Also, some of the violin sonatas are exceptional and have very uncharacteristic piano writing. like this one:


I REALLY like this!

@millionrainbows -- I have many problems. Some of them I address.

- Bill


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## Kieran (Aug 24, 2010)

It's Wolfie's birthday today. Any music you listen goes down better with a slice of birthday cake. Once you're sweetened, you'll never go back...


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## Berlioznestpasmort (Jan 24, 2014)

BillT's title to this thread would make an excellent book title (and book, possibly): _Help Me Like Mozart!_


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Help me like peanut butter. You don't like it, you don't like it.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Not sure how to take the thread title. Is it "Help, me like Mozart!" or possibly "Help me, like Mozart!"?


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

KenOC said:


> Not sure how to take the thread title. Is it "Help, me like Mozart!" or possibly "Help me, like Mozart!"?


Funny!

I may be crazy, but If I was asking the community for sincere help, I sure would make myself a lot more visible interacting and thanking those folks who took their time to offer sincere help and list some excellent Mozart compositions.

Different worlds we live in.


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## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

<Ahem!> Yes, decidedly: 'manners.'


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## mmsbls (Mar 6, 2011)

hpowders said:


> I may be crazy, but If I was asking the community for sincere help, I sure would make myself a lot more visible interacting and thanking those folks who took their time to offer sincere help and list some excellent Mozart compositions.


People respond in differing ways to threads (even their own) and posts. Please remember that it is against our Terms of Service to comment on other member's person or posting style on the forum (unless said comments are unmistakably positive).


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## Richannes Wrahms (Jan 6, 2014)

millionrainbows said:


> I suggest the Adagio and Fugue in C minor (SONY remaster)*ASIN:* B00BRKZ066
> It features Yo-Yo ma.
> When listening to this piece, think *"darkness, ahh, darkness." *Try turning all the lights out and listening to it with a single candle. Realize that Mozart had a dark side, and that you do as well. Try to invoke this darkness in any way possible. Create the mood, and listen in a concentrated, reverential way, and realize that this music is a key, a catalyst, a doorway into the nether regions of the human soul.


That's the piece that proves the irrelevance of Shostakovich.


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## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

Echoing from another post:

Che finezza!

The Allegro?-- de-LIGHT! The Theme and Variations?- so damned cute. And, yes, the pièce de résistance, the Adagio: E squisita!!!

-- If this doesn't help people like Mozart. . . well, what can I say?-- "Toujours perdrix"?-- or -- "Brain damaged, but it's only permanent."

Your diagnostic call.


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## Dustin (Mar 30, 2012)

KenOC said:


> Not sure how to take the thread title. Is it "Help, me like Mozart!" or possibly "Help me, like Mozart!"?


Neither. It's "Help me like, Mozart!"


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## Dustin (Mar 30, 2012)

BillT said:


> I REALLY like this!
> 
> @millionrainbows -- I have many problems. Some of them I address.
> 
> - Bill


If you like this, you HAVE to explore his other mature violin sonatas, of which there are quite a good number. There is some really spectacular music there. I once heard his violin sonata K 304 in E Minor at a recital for the first time and I was taken aback by it's darkness and genius.


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## Weston (Jul 11, 2008)

Vesteralen said:


> It would be nice if some of the suggestions above end up being of help to the OP in reaching his stated goal.
> 
> I remain cynical as always on these recommendation threads. We are all different. If someone recommended Mozart's Symphony #41, for example, as a first attempt to get me to like Mozart, I'd probably conclude the whole attempt was worthless. Great a piece of music as it no doubt is, I've never liked it. Why? I can't tell you. I have no idea.
> 
> ...


I couldn't agree more with the symphony 39 recommendation. I think No. 41 is too recognizable and many listeners might give an "Oh. _THAT!_" reaction. I also couldn't agree more with your entire post.


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## bigshot (Nov 22, 2011)

I can't help but feel sorry for people who have been over exposed to greatness.


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## Guest (Jan 28, 2014)

Vesteralen said:


> It would be nice if some of the suggestions above end up being of help to the OP in reaching his stated goal.
> 
> I remain cynical as always on these recommendation threads. We are all different. If someone recommended Mozart's Symphony #41, for example, as a first attempt to get me to like Mozart, I'd probably conclude the whole attempt was worthless. Great a piece of music as it no doubt is, I've never liked it. Why? I can't tell you. I have no idea.
> 
> ...


I couldn't agree more. I've never asked for any advice on any topic on any forum at any time, even when my knowledge was a good deal less than now. This is not to criticise those who do, or who find it useful to proceed in this way, as we're all wired up differently, and I'm sure their motives are good.

In my case I found other sources of information on composer best-buys to be much more useful, and once I was past a certain quite low threshold it became simple to find other material that I liked. I tend to like giving advice but I don't seek anything back from others, except intelligent comment. I do struggle at times wondering why I ever bother, given some of the misconceived and carping reactions I sometimes get. But I'm in between jobs right now and have a bit of spare time to utilise for my amusement here.

Perhaps oddly, I have given some recommendations above concerning Mozart which I chose only on the basis that they are among the standard "canon" in this area. I rarely bother listening to any of that kind of stuff any more, as I would far prefer to listen to some of his lesser-known piano solo or chamber works that rarely get mentioned, but I doubt that any of these would go down too well.

Just a little confession I thought I'd make, given your comments


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## starry (Jun 2, 2009)

Partita said:


> I couldn't agree more. I've never asked for any advice on any topic on any forum at any time, even when my knowledge was a good deal less than now.


I agree with recent posts and I have never asked for anything either, I like to do my own research. A quick search on google and anyone could find recommended Mozart works/recordings. Really I think you could easily put things in an overall recommendations thread, and there could also be an overall 'If you like something like x you will also like x' thread as well. Then instead of unnecessary individual threads they could all be combined together. Because you do get an awful lot of duplicate threads asking for stuff by people new here. Better that than having to have a beginners forum like other places?

And of course there's always the _Compilation of the TC Top Recommended Lists_ which is stickied, but people always ignore it.


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## Vinyl (Jan 22, 2014)

I am guilty of a "please help me" thread, in the opera section, and I can assure you the top list was not "ignored", but it has 273 items, and no discussions or explanations. It is simply a big list. It's only a little tiny bit better than nothing.
I don't have an opinion on how things should be arranged on this site - I am new here - but one reason for me to join was that it came up when googling for a way to make sense of opera, and people here seemed nice and helpful.


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## starry (Jun 2, 2009)

Recommendation threads don't tend to be discussion, it's more I like this, I don't like this. And the thing that someone might like the most might not even be mentioned, the only way to find what you like is to listen it seems to me, just dip into stuff.


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## MrTortoise (Dec 25, 2008)

Hi BillT, I love W.A. Mozart's music and hope that the many great suggestions in the thread lead you to a greater appreciation of his works. My 2 cents: check out the Piano Sonata in a minor K. 310. The perpetual motion roller coaster ride of the first movement and the middle section of the second movement are packed with emotion.






Don't feel any obligation to 'like' Mozart. We all have different tastes.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

Two words: Peter Maag.

I've always liked Glenn Gould's Mozart piano sonatas; and Robert Browning. The piano sonatas seem to me to be the most obvious way in.

After all, a piano is a piano, and a sonata is a sonata. This way, most of the "middlemen" have been cut out, and you are left with the succinct ideas which Mozart presents you with. That's the nitty gritty, you either like it or not. And what's not to like?

I will make an admission: way back in 1970, I did not yet understand Haydn or Mozart. When I began to try to play some easy Bach, I slowly began to see...but coming from a rock background, Haydn sonatinas seemed all too simplistic. I saw later that how they are played can really make the difference. Listen to Richter on the Handel suites for keyboard, and you'll know what I mean.


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## IBMchicago (May 16, 2012)

It's ok if you don't like Mozart. I don't enjoy the taste of raw, uncooked tomatoes, regardless of the numerous foodies and professional chefs that have attempted to convince me of the richness and depth of their flavor.

That said, I agree with St. Luke's point regarding perceptions of emotions in art/music. I will even take a step farther and state that, in my own opinion, it is much, much harder to express convincingly positive emotions (joy, contentment, wit) in music than negative ones (anxiety, heartbreak, suicidal thoughts) as joy can be just as multi-dimensional (and, possibly, harder for a human being to experience) as sadness – and only a complete artist can truly grasp this. So, it is for this reason that I enjoy Mozart so much. Mozart seems to capture nearly every profundity and concealed truth of positive temperament (far better than any other composer, save maybe Bach), which is precisely why his pieces can be so difficult to perform and why so many performers continue to express many new and unheard of ideas in his music. Typically, when I attempt to sway a beginner, I suggest the often written-off Eine Klein Nachtmusik...listen to the Romanze...the key of sunny, free C Major is displayed with all its hidden moods, colors and sentiments which, to me, is an utterly magical listening experience. And, for some real fun, try Concertos No. 9 and 21.


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## MrTortoise (Dec 25, 2008)

millionrainbows said:


> Two words: Peter Maag.
> 
> *I've always liked Glenn Gould's Mozart piano sonatas*; and Robert Browning. The piano sonatas seem to me to be the most obvious way in.
> 
> ...


I'm not sure that Glenn Gould liked his recordings of the Mozart Sonatas 

I enjoy many of Gould's recordings, however his Mozart sonatas always irritate me. He is so unsympathetic to the music, it sounds like typing exercises to me. However, I can see how his 'interpretations' can be a good entry point for those unfamiliar with the works. There is a clarity to the music, and the structure of the work is cast into the foreground. For an analytical listener, this can be a huge advantage. For those searching for emotion in Mozart, most likely will be a hindrance.

I've been listening to Christoph Eschenbach's Mozart sonata cycle recently and enjoying every moment.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

When I'm not listening to GG's Mozart, it's Robert Browning. Also, I recommend *Anthony Newman's *pianoforte (fortepiano) versions on Newport Classics.

With Newman, I hear the "emotion" referred to as playing with dramatic gesture. How emotional can a V-I be? Also, I see a lot of Mozart's keyboard music as demanding a lot of technical facility to make up for the classical style he was working in.


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## BillT (Nov 3, 2013)

I want to mind my manners, even if I may be brain-damaged, and thank those who offered suggestions on some pieces to listen to. I have made a list of about 20 works. No doubt it will take me quite some time to work through them -- and I probably won't get to all of them -- so forgive me if I don't post very often to say "I liked" or "I didn't like" this or that. It's all kind of personal, anyway. 

Please forgive me for not being more involved in the thread as it was developing -- I don't get to (or make time to) get on TC all that often -- but I do value it! 

I am initially going to start up on some String Quintets and piano works. 

Thanks again.

Bill


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

Vinyl said:


> I am guilty of a "please help me" thread, in the opera section, and I can assure you the top list was not "ignored", but it has 273 items, and no discussions or explanations. It is simply a big list. It's only a little tiny bit better than nothing.
> I don't have an opinion on how things should be arranged on this site - I am new here - but one reason for me to join was that it came up when googling for a way to make sense of opera, and people here seemed nice and helpful.


People are list-happy to the point of crazed. Now you know


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## eyeman (Oct 3, 2013)

ahammel said:


> HIP = historically informed performance (typically involving period instruments and somebody's idea of what performance practices were like in the 18th century).
> 
> The piano concertos and the string quintets are his other important cycles, aside from the operas. Maybe give the G-minor quintet and the D-minor and C-minor concertos a spin (I find his minor key stuff appeals to beginners).


I would love to explore some HIP's of Mozart's piano concertos. I don't really like the sound of modern piano playing in his pieces. I've had no success in finding his piano pieces done the way it sounded in his day and it's frustrating. Are there any good ones and if so would greatly appreciate some recommendations?!


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## mtmailey (Oct 21, 2011)

The best thing to do is to buy some CDS that shows his best works.Not all his music sounds great but his later music sounds better than the early ones.


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## starry (Jun 2, 2009)

mtmailey said:


> The best thing to do is to buy some CDS that shows his best works.Not all his music sounds great but his later music sounds better than the early ones.


Arguably some earlier things can be good, and some later things can be not so good. So I don't think there is an exact rule on this. The only way is to listen for yourself, as you find out what is good by also hearing what is not so good. That's another reason why such threads are of little value. Unless you're just looking to bluff your way which is I guess the choice of some.


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## eipi (Aug 5, 2013)

Sometimes you have to accept people, or composers, for who they are. So I would say--rather than listening to the Requiem or the 20th piano concerto or the 40th symphony or some other piece that sounds Romantic--listen again to the clarinet concerto or something even simpler like Mozart's 10th piano sonata with an open mind (and a glass of wine). Mozart was the king of elegance; nobody has ever been better. Thousands of people, including today's pop stars, have made more emotionally gripping music.


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## violadude (May 2, 2011)

eipi said:


> Thousands of people, including today's pop stars, have made more emotionally gripping music.


Erm, who might be these pop stars that write more emotionally gripping works than Mozart?


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## presto (Jun 17, 2011)

I started my love of classical music with Mozart and then branched out to other eras from there and I'm glad I did.
Because I've known people struggle with Mozart because they started out in the Romantic era and they feel Mozart sounds light weight and lacking in emotion by comparison.
Mozart has to be appreciated on his own terms.


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## dgee (Sep 26, 2013)

violadude said:


> Erm, who might be these pop stars that write more emotionally gripping works than Mozart?


There was no more! So if we are just equaling Mozart for "emotional gripping" then the following have done it for little ol me: Stevie Wonder, Curtis Mayfield, Burt Bacharach, Marvin Gaye, Allen Toussaint, Aretha Franklin, Barbara Lewis, Sam Cooke, Brian Wilson, Bobby Womack, Barry Gibb, Daryl Hall and John Oates, Joe Bataan, Roberta Flack, Victor Jara, Don Fagan and Walter Becker, Kate Bush, David Byrne, Valerie Simpson and Nick Ashcroft, Carole King, Willie Hutch, Caetono Veloso, Gilberto Gil and Serge Gainsbourg

Every one of them a bona fide pop star! I sense a pop binge comin on


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## Dustin (Mar 30, 2012)

presto said:


> I started my love of classical music with Mozart and then branched out to other eras from there and I'm glad I did.
> Because I've known people struggle with Mozart because they started out in the Romantic era and they feel Mozart sounds light weight and lacking in emotion by comparison.
> Mozart has to be appreciated on his own terms.


Your reasoning makes perfect sense but when I think about my personal experience, I didn't run across a problem with Mozart and I started with Chopin, one of the most romantic of all. Lucky for me.


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## Roi N (Oct 22, 2013)

The thing with Classical era composers is that they write 'pure music'. This means that music is expressed only by the virtue of its form, without the need of extra-musical associations. It means that when Haydn wrote a quartet, he did not think of a bird chirping and when Mozart wrote a symphony he did not think of a river flowing. They wrote music as an individual, expressing nothing but the music itself. Only when this is understood, can one find the true glory of the classical-era composers, Mozart along with them.
I recommend that you listen to one genre, from start to finish. This means that if you choose Symphonies (a wise choice!), start from No. 1 and end at the 41st, [without listening to No. 2, 3 and 37 (who aren't his)]. This way, you can appreciate the development of the form, thus enjoying Mozart more and more.
This should be done also for his Piano Concerti (start at 5, 1-4 are arrangments), Quartets (all of them), Sonatas and String Serenades. 
On a side-note, his divertimento for strings in D Major K.136 is absolutely wonderful!


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## Roi N (Oct 22, 2013)

violadude said:


> Erm, who might be these pop stars that write more emotionally gripping works than Mozart?


Though I agree that pop stars are in no way emotional, you must keep in mind that Mozart wrote 'pure music' - it was music for the music in it, not for the emotions.


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## Morimur (Jan 23, 2014)

That's a lot of POP! My teeth hurt.

Yes, Pop music can be emotional, often excessively so. This is why it appeals to teenagers. Of course, there are a few diamonds in the rough, but for the most part Pop music is terribly simplistic and repetitive. It can have a lot to say but painfully lacks the ability to express itself in a creative, sophisticated manner. And what's with all the whining? I am talking to you, Radiohead and clones; bedwetter music. If Pop music were an author it would be Danielle Steel. Personally I prefer Beckett. Alas, to each his own.


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## starry (Jun 2, 2009)

Or you can enjoy both.


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## BillT (Nov 3, 2013)

Thanks for your help. I think. now I am in worse trouble than before! I have been listening to this:











And I can't stop! it is *SO* beautiful! I go to bed at night with the strains in my head, and the music is *literally* the first thought I have when I wake up! How did I miss this before? Whoever suggested the PC's was brilliantly evil!

Now what do I do?

I have tried going to the Piano Sonatas, the Symphonies, other works but I just cannot get these out of my mind. I listen to nothing else.

Life is weird, and so am I.

- Bill


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## Guest (Jun 10, 2014)

K364, Sinfonia Concertante in E flat for Violin and Viola
K299, Concerto for Flute and Harp in C
K622, Concerto for Clarinet in A


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## QuietGuy (Mar 1, 2014)

Nothing more I can add here ...
I second Weston's suggestion for the Concerto for Flute and Harp (K.299). It's great stuff.
Also, I second dgee's suggestion for Symphony #41.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

I can't say I don't like Mozart and I do have a few CDs, but it's just that I don't have much desire to listen to his music, nor have I tryed to nurture such desire (too ingrossed in Beethoven I guess). However, the best Mozart I can recommend, and it is wonderful with a superb soprano such as Elly Ameling, is this one from my collection:


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Try Et Incarnatus est from Mozart's Great Mass in c minor.

Mozart had a love affair with the soprano voice as you will hear.

Here, the late great Arleen Auger sings it with the late, great Leonard Bernstein conducting in a very moving performance.


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## StlukesguildOhio (Dec 25, 2006)

presto- I started my love of classical music with Mozart and then branched out to other eras from there and I'm glad I did. Because I've known people struggle with Mozart because they started out in the Romantic era and they feel Mozart sounds light weight and lacking in emotion by comparison. Mozart has to be appreciated on his own terms.

Dustin- Your reasoning makes perfect sense but when I think about my personal experience, I didn't run across a problem with Mozart and I started with Chopin, one of the most romantic of all. Lucky for me.

Of course Chopin was one of the Romantics most indebted to/enamored of Mozart.

Personally, I started with the Baroque and moved forward into Mozart, Haydn, Beethoven, Schubert, Brahms. It took me a while to grasp the broader Romantic forms of Bruckner, Mahler, Wagner, etc...


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## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

> StlukesGuildOhio: Of course Chopin was one of the Romantics most indebted to/enamored of Mozart.
> 
> Personally, I started with the Baroque and moved forward into Mozart, Haydn, Beethoven, Schubert, Brahms. It took me a while to grasp the broader Romantic forms of Bruckner, Mahler, Wagner, etc...


Diametric _opposite _ evolutionary trajectory with me. Ha. Ha. Ha. Ha.


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## Blake (Nov 6, 2013)

StlukesguildOhio said:


> Of course Chopin was one of the Romantics most indebted to/enamored of Mozart.


Yea, Chopin had a very strong classicism in him. I think some over-estimate his sentiment. Yes he was a Romantic, and expressed some pretty strong emotions, but he was very precise and Classical as well. His favorite composers were Bach and Mozart, and he often overlooked the other Romantic composers of his day.


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## SONNET CLV (May 31, 2014)

My favorite Mozart remains the Oboe Quartet in F major, K. 370. What's not to love about that splendrous venture into the sublime?


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

eyeman said:


> I would love to explore some HIP's of Mozart's piano concertos. I don't really like the sound of modern piano playing in his pieces. I've had no success in finding his piano pieces done the way it sounded in his day and it's frustrating. Are there any good ones and if so would greatly appreciate some recommendations?!


Get Bilson/Gardiner or van Immerseel in HIP performances on fortepiano. Both terrific. It's the best way to listen to Mozart keyboard concertos.


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## trazom (Apr 13, 2009)

and this piece because it's so odd, but beautiful.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Everybody's different. The last time I looked, it was no crime not to like Mozart.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

Don't help me to like Mozart. I've got enough other good stuff to keep up with.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Abracadabra! You like Mozart!!!


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## Blake (Nov 6, 2013)

starthrower said:


> Don't help me to like Mozart. I've got enough other good stuff to keep up with.


Yea, I have about 24 albums and counting. He wrote too much good music.


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## sprigofflowers (Nov 23, 2014)

I am the same way BillT. His music feels more like it comes from a place of cold genius, rather than from the heart.


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## Blake (Nov 6, 2013)

sprigofflowers said:


> I am the same way BillT. His music feels more like it comes from a place of cold genius, rather than from the heart.


This kind of stuff makes me question my sobriety. I feel Wolfie's music is oozing with expressiveness.


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## poconoron (Oct 26, 2011)

sprigofflowers said:


> I am the same way BillT. His music feels more like it comes from a place of cold genius, rather than from the heart.


Try listening to:




or:


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

One can't persuade someone to like something they don't like. Sorry for the logic.


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## StlukesguildOhio (Dec 25, 2006)

Yea, I have about 24 albums and counting. He wrote too much good music.

24?! 

Gad!

I must have more than 24 recordings of his operas alone! :lol:


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## StlukesguildOhio (Dec 25, 2006)

I am the same way BillT. His music feels more like it comes from a place of cold genius, rather than from the heart.

That's because it does come from his genius... like all music. Emotion is what we, the listeners, bring to the music.


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## Blake (Nov 6, 2013)

StlukesguildOhio said:


> Yea, I have about 24 albums and counting. He wrote too much good music.
> 
> 24?!
> 
> ...


Hahaha, I'm feeling sane again.


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## SONNET CLV (May 31, 2014)

If you think you don't like Mozart, take a listen to the Oboe Quartet in F, K.370/368b, preferably in the version with Larry Adler on harmonica.






If you still don't like Mozart after that, you're lost.


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## Chronochromie (May 17, 2014)

Try the Great C minor Mass.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

SONNET CLV said:


> If you think you don't like Mozart, take a listen to the Oboe Quartet in F, K.370/368b, preferably in the version with Larry Adler on harmonica.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yes. If after a heavy exposure to Mozart, the person still doesn't like this composer, simply accept it. There's always Ligeti.


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## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

SONNET CLV said:


> If you still don't like Mozart after that, you're lost.


I have always loved Mozart. I adore his music in all genres and find it a necessary part of my classical music listening. I cannot imagine actually disliking his music.

But I think that comments like the above are distinctly unhelpful. Our understanding of and taste in music are related to our exposure and personal taste, and just saying that someone will automatically "get it" just by hearing something is not only wrong, it's offensive. No matter how self-apparently the music of Mozart may strike you or I as great, there will inevitably be others who struggle with it for one reason or another, and they do not deserve to be told that there's something wrong with them.


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## SarahNorthman (Nov 19, 2014)

violadude said:


> Are you okay with operas? I suggest Mozart's operas not only because they are considered some of his greatest masterpieces, but the dramatic elements of opera might help you connect Mozart's music with emotions more readily.
> 
> How about Don Giovanni?
> 
> ...


I second this. His operas are great. Don Giovanni just gives me shivers.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

For a "way in" for a subject who is blocked or resistant, I suggest some of the Mozart Fantasies played by Glenn Gould. And the Turkish Rondo from the sonata in A major.


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## trazom (Apr 13, 2009)

It looks like the original poster's problem was solved a while ago a few pages back there. Don't know what the point of necromancing this thread was...


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## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

PetrB said:


> "I'm trying!"
> "Yes... very."
> 
> It seems it proved more trying to folks than funny.


I'm not saying that the attempt at humor was successful when I say that the intent was obvious. Well, at least Vinyl and I thought it was obvious.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

trazom said:


> It looks like the original poster's problem was solved a while ago a few pages back there. Don't know what the point of necromancing this thread was...


Yeah...I'm _sick_ of zombies!


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## OwenK (Nov 24, 2014)

I attended a really good piano concert on Mozart recently. The program included Adagio in B Minor, Sonata K. 283, and Sonata K. 310. These pieces were selected to show Mozart's more emotional side. You might want to give them a try


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## StephenTC (Apr 24, 2014)

Good value is The Very Best of Daniel Barenboim: includes a good sampling from Mozart's various genres..
available via Amazon, Ebay iTunes etc..
the highly regarded Piano Concerto 23
the delightful Piano Trio K564
the most stirring rendition of the Finale of Symphony No 41 "Jupiter" I have ever heard
Don Giovanni, K. 527, Act I: Scena quarta: excerpts
Variations On 'Les hommes pieusement' 'Le rencontre imprévue' By Gluck, K. 455 

plus lots of wonderful stuff from other composers in various genres...


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## Albert7 (Nov 16, 2014)

I am probably the wrong person to ask because I tend to like everything that I hear.

Mozart for me represents elegance in thought and harmony, and divine inspiration in meditation. He could compose in virtually any genre with so much flexibility.

I can understand why someone may not like Mozart. Some could find him too much in melodic analysis and distant. And his operas aren't always emotionally involved in the same way like Puccini or Verdi. Mozart for me isn't a drama queen LOL.


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## fjf (Nov 4, 2014)

Noone can help the OP to like chocolat. Nor Mozart.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Help me like Castor Oil!


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## BillT (Nov 3, 2013)

SONNET CLV said:


> If you think you don't like Mozart, take a listen to the Oboe Quartet in F, K.370/368b, preferably in the version with Larry Adler on harmonica.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Ha ha ha! I tried your YouTube suggestion. I could listen for a solid 20 secs. Let's leave it at that.

There IS Mozart that I now DO like, some of the Piano Concerti, thank you to whomever suggested it! Since getting on to them, I have tried other Mozart, most of it fell flat to my ears. As someone said, I may be "blocked" or "resistant". I blame it on the fact that I "had" to play the French Horn concerto back in the day. I hated them then, and I hate them now. Just thinking of that piece makes me shiver (but not in the way Sarah Northman does.)

I will keep trying from time to time, focusing primarily on the piano pieces.

Thanks for the suggestions. And yes, thanks for necromancing the thread. It continues to be one of my issues in life. (I have many issues....)

- Bill


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## Chronochromie (May 17, 2014)

BillT said:


> Ha ha ha! I tried your YouTube suggestion. I could listen for a solid 20 secs. Let's leave it at that.
> 
> There IS Mozart that I now DO like, some of the Piano Concerti, thank you to whomever suggested it! Since getting on to them, I have tried other Mozart, most of it fell flat to my ears. As someone said, I may be "blocked" or "resistant". I blame it on the fact that I "had" to play the French Horn concerto back in the day. I hated them then, and I hate them now. Just thinking of that piece makes me shiver (but not in the way Sarah Northman does.)
> 
> ...


Curiously, the piano concertos are some of my least favorite Mozart. I found them cheesy and boring. But it's been a while, I should listen fo them again.


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## BillT (Nov 3, 2013)

trazom said:


> The Coronation mass is as good as the Requiem and C minor mass. I don't get why people group the 25th symphony with his last two, just because it's a minor key work. It doesn't even compare in quality to the Prague or 39th symphony, both of which are in the must-listen-to category.
> 
> Also, some of the violin sonatas are exceptional and have very uncharacteristic piano writing. like this one:


Just listened to that -- WOW! Who is that? I want to buy that one. Thanks for mentioning it!


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## spokanedaniel (Dec 23, 2014)

I'd have said if you want to try to learn to like a composer, just listen to their music. But obviously you are doing that. I have never heard a single note of Mozart that I didn't love. But with apologies for not having read all 9 pages of this thread, I'll say if it has not already been suggested, listed to Mozart's Requiem Mass. As choral music goes, IMO, only the Bach B Minor Mass is better.


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## StephenTC (Apr 24, 2014)

StephenTC said:


> Good value is The Very Best of Daniel Barenboim:...
> 
> the delightful Piano Trio K564..................
> 
> .


PS: just a warning that during the absolutely beautiful Andante of the Piano Trio K564, you can occasionally hear the Violin or Cello breathe through their nose - If you have ever come across this phenomenon before you know it can be a bit off-putting.


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## Guest (Dec 23, 2014)

Mozart is about perfection of balance and harmony. It is serious easy listening. It wipes away anxiety and powerful emotions in favor of inner peace and appreciation of the beauty and balance of the universe. 

I think of it this way, up until Mozart, composers strove to reflect the perfection of God's creation in music. That culminated in Mozart's perfect balance and harmony. Then Beethoven, moving music forward, took the direction of man's struggle in the universe. Since then music has moved in a direction away from balance and toward chaos. That is also, arguably, a reflection of the universe, just not the view of it that I like to take. 

BTW, the Sinfonia Concertante for Violin and Viola, K364, is my all time favorite piece of music.


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## ahammel (Oct 10, 2012)

StephenTC said:


> PS: just a warning that during the absolutely beautiful Andante of the Piano Trio K564, you can occasionally hear the Violin or Cello breathe through their nose - If you have ever come across this phenomenon before you know it can be a bit off-putting.


I don't think I've ever come across a chamber music recording without that phenomenon.


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## Guest (Dec 23, 2014)

ahammel said:


> I don't think I've ever come across a chamber music recording without that phenomenon.


Older recordings not so much, but with the crystal clear recording techniques of the last 20 years, almost all the time.

And I don't find if "off-putting" at all. To me it makes the music sound close, personal, and real.


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## spokanedaniel (Dec 23, 2014)

Jerome said:


> Mozart is about perfection of balance and harmony. It is serious easy listening. It wipes away anxiety and powerful emotions in favor of inner peace and appreciation of the beauty and balance of the universe.


Hmmm. I get seriously powerful emotions when I listen to Mozart's Requiem Mass.



Jerome said:


> I think of it this way, up until Mozart, composers strove to reflect the perfection of God's creation in music. That culminated in Mozart's perfect balance and harmony. Then Beethoven, moving music forward, took the direction of man's struggle in the universe. Since then music has moved in a direction away from balance and toward chaos. ...


I wonder if that's why I like post-Mozart music less and less as it gets later and later. I don't like chaotic music.


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## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

spokanedaniel said:


> I wonder if that's why I like post-Mozart music less and less as it gets later and later. I don't like chaotic music.


No, later music is not chaotic. It only seems that way if you're not accustomed to the style.


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## Guest (Dec 23, 2014)

Mahlerian said:


> No, later music is not chaotic. It only seems that way if you're not accustomed to the style.


I have heard that argument very often, and I agree with it on an intellectual level. But my gut tells me otherwise as I listen. I do like a lot of modern music. The Rite of Spring is amazing, and there is plenty of 20th century music that I listen to frequently. but the farther it gets from tonality the less it appeals to me. Tonality feels to me like a reflection of the natural tendency toward order - like gravity pulling things together. Atonality in it strictest form feels (to me) like it's struggling against that natural tendency, or possibly reflecting entropy which is a natural order in itself. But the outcome of entropy is the end of our universe. I love our little spot in time and space, however tentative, and Mozart helps me to feel like it's not in jeopardy yet.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

Jerome said:


> Mozart is about perfection of balance and harmony...Since then music has moved in a direction away from balance and toward chaos. That is also, arguably, a reflection of the universe, just not the view of it that I like to take.


Oh, I thought that Mozart, with his powdered wig, frilly clothes, and dainty style, exemplifies modern urban society perfectly.


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## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

I don't believe atonality exists. What is called atonality is simply an extension of tonality into a non-diatonic realm where chord function is no longer important.

Something like this doesn't sound the least bit chaotic to me.


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## Guest (Dec 23, 2014)

No it doesn't sound chaotic in pure definition of the word. It does sound to me as though it is purposely avoiding chordal relationships (or chord functions I suppose would be a more technical term). It's nice background music if I don't have to listen too closely to it. Cage's Sonatas and Interludes for Prepared Piano makes me feel similarly. I do play that occasionally. 

It seems to me that there is very little atonal music (or however you want to describe it) written for a large orchestra. Avoiding chord structure and function would make dense orchestration very difficult. What is your take on that, Mahlerian?


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## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

I feel very differently. The music requires my full attention and rewards it amply with subtle harmonic and melodic relationships. They just aren't the same ones of functional tonality.

Modernist composers do generally go for a more transparent (thinner) texture, but that doesn't preclude either the use of a large orchestra nor dense writing.


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

Listen with your heart........


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## spokanedaniel (Dec 23, 2014)

Mahlerian said:


> I don't believe atonality exists. What is called atonality is simply an extension of tonality into a non-diatonic realm where chord function is no longer important.


I don't know what any of that means, but I guess I like the diatonic realm and lots of chord function. (I have no musical education, but a strong sense of what I like. And Mozart is near the top of that. Perhaps only Bach at his best surpassed Mozart in my affection. But perhaps I have a brain defect because music I really like, especially if it's polyphonic and contrapuntal or syncopated (i.e baroque or early jazz) affects me on a visceral level that I don't observe in my friends when they listen to music they like.)


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## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

I love Mozart and Bach as well, and my reactions to music are far stronger than most people I know. But I also love later music, up to the present day (and find bebop enjoyable).

I'm not saying you have to enjoy things you don't like, but the music itself is not chaotic, though I understand why it might seem that way if you aren't used to the styles involved. I enjoy it for the same reasons and in the same way I enjoy earlier music. To me, it just sounds good, first and foremost.


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## Guest (Dec 24, 2014)

Mahlerian said:


> I feel very differently. The music requires my full attention and rewards it amply with subtle harmonic and melodic relationships. They just aren't the same ones of functional tonality.
> 
> Modernist composers do generally go for a more transparent (thinner) texture, but that doesn't preclude either the use of a large orchestra nor dense writing.


I finally got around to listening to this. I think I my quota for this kind of music is one per day. Like a lot of great 20th century music, it's a bit noisy at first. But I think it would grow on me after a few listens. I love the energy. There is definitely emotion there.

You talk of "modernist" music in describing what I call "atonal". To me there needs to be a distinction between what has been traditionally called the "Modern" era of classical music (i.e. Stravinsky, Bartok, Shostakovich), and the music of the 12-tone and second viennese schools. I understand there is a lot of gray area between them and Boulez would fall into that. But there is grayness between Classical and Romantic, and then between Romantic and Modern. Yet we still have a name to describe the music that epitomizes each style. "Modern" has been taken. So if not "Atonal" what? Or did I already say it - 12-tone or second viennese?


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## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

Jerome said:


> You talk of "modernist" music in describing what I call "atonal". To me there needs to be a distinction between what has been traditionally called the "Modern" era of classical music (i.e. Stravinsky, Bartok, Shostakovich), and the music of the 12-tone and second viennese schools. I understand there is a lot of gray area between them and Boulez would fall into that. But there is grayness between Classical and Romantic, and then between Romantic and Modern. Yet we still have a name to describe the music that epitomizes each style. "Modern" has been taken. So if not "Atonal" what? Or did I already say it - 12-tone or second viennese?


I don't think there's as much difference between the two as people imagine. After all, when Stravinsky did start using the 12-tone method, the music still sounds like Stravinsky and not Schoenberg or Webern. I would call them all modernist, personally.

That said, there are distinctions to be made between the impressionist-inspired primitivism of early Stravinsky, the chromatic modality of Bartok, the neoclassicism of middle Stravinsky and Les Six, and the music of Shostakovich, which combines elements of all of these. The style of the Second Viennese School is the extension of Germanic/Austrian Late Romanticism into the 20th century, and it's generally described as expressionist, mirroring the school of painting which included Marc, Kandinsky (with whom Schoenberg was friends for a while), and Schiele.


























But the word atonal is not generally used to denote a style, and the music of the Second Viennese School actually has very little in common with much else that is called atonal, like Cage or Xenakis, either in sound or technique.


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## Guest (Dec 24, 2014)

Mahlerian said:


> I don't think there's as much difference between the two as people imagine. After all, when Stravinsky did start using the 12-tone method, the music still sounds like Stravinsky and not Schoenberg or Webern. I would call them all modernist, personally.
> 
> That said, there are distinctions to be made between the impressionist-inspired primitivism of early Stravinsky, the chromatic modality of Bartok, the neoclassicism of middle Stravinsky and Les Six, and the music of Shostakovich, which combines elements of all of these. The style of the Second Viennese School is the extension of Germanic/Austrian Late Romanticism into the 20th century, and it's generally described as expressionist, mirroring the school of painting which included Marc, Kandinsky (with whom Schoenberg was friends for a while), and Schiele.
> 
> But the word atonal is not generally used to denote a style, and the music of the Second Viennese School actually has very little in common with much else that is called atonal, like Cage or Xenakis, either in sound or technique.


Thanks for the visual analogy. The Marc reminds me of a Stravinsky ballet, the Kandinsky of a Shostakovich concerto, and the Scheile of a Bartok quartet.

If you don't draw a distinction between Modern and Atonal, then I can no longer say I don't like "Modernist" music because I love so much of it from the early 20th century. With the lines erased, I have to take each composer individually and say, "I like Stravinsky but not Glass. I like Shostakovich but not Schoenberg.


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## ahammel (Oct 10, 2012)

Jerome said:


> Thanks for the visual analogy. The Marc reminds me of a Stravinsky ballet, the Kandinsky of a Shostakovich concerto, and the Scheile of a Bartok quartet.
> 
> If you don't draw a distinction between Modern and Atonal, then I can no longer say I don't like "Modernist" music because I love so much of it from the early 20th century. With the lines erased, I have to take each composer individually and say, "I like Stravinsky but not Glass. I like Shostakovich but not Schoenberg.


Post-Schoenberg, maybe?


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Vinyl said:


> Great mass in C.


One of my all time favorites.


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## StephenTC (Apr 24, 2014)

Try this:

When you go to this link, when it gets to 31:45 - close your eyes, outstretch you arms and welcome in the warmth and love that Wolfgang is sending you from 230+ years ago:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zK5295yEQMQ#t=1877

This one also at 15:50: it seems to be that descending figures in strings create that sense of warmth:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=If5fjJaCh6s#t=938

You could also take your walkman and try them out on a sunrise.


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