# Merl's Beethoven Symphony Cycle Reviews Pt14



## Merl (Jul 28, 2016)

The enforced COVID lockdown has given me the chance to catch up on another set of Beethoven cycles so here is Part 14 of my cycle reviews, a little earlier than expected.

Rating are as always:

C Satisfactory cycle. Ok, but nothing to shout about
B- Good cycle but flawed (see decriptions in thread).
B Good standard. A decent library set or better.
B+ Very good set. Some very impressive performances. Well worth investing in.
A- Excellent set just missing a little something to take it to the top of the pile but all performances very good or better.
A* Wow! Currently the cream of the crop out there in LvB Cycleland. Buy, borrow or listen, now!

*Dorati / RPO*









I'll start this survey with the rarest cycle here (and one of the rarest around). In the mid 70s Dorait laid down this cycle for Mercury. It's never made it to CD (apart from one savvy punter who ripped these direct from LP and released them in a short run in Japan - and that's where I got my LP rip from). The set itself is rather disjointed, cuased by Dorati's insistence on short takes and the RPO's technical level at the time that was not at its peak. Dorati only shows a few glimpses of what made his LSO Beethoven recordings so good but these do not bear comparison with those. However, it's not all bad and there are very good performances of the 2nd (great finale) and 4th symphonies but this level of perfomance is not maintained. Here and there there are interesting artistic flourishes - the timpani rolls at the start of the 8th and Dorati's enjoyable embellishments in the finale of the 7th spring to mind - but the rest of the set is uneven. The 5th may be the best performance here and Dorati and the RPO pull it off well but a pallid 6th, dull 9th, limp Eroica, average 1st and heavy-handed 8th spoil the set. It's not as bad as all that but listen to his LSO 7th and then this 7th and you'll hear a lack of urgency, some scrappy intonation, badly mixed woodwinds and string-heaviness across the piece. Incidentally this cycle is now officially listed as 'lost' but may still be knocking around somewhere (last reports are that it could be in Hannover) but does anyone care? Obviously not enough to find them!

_Grade - C_

*Haselbock / Wiener Akademie*









On initial inspection Haselbock's vision of playing the Beethoven symphonies in the "theatres and concert halls of their premieres, performed on the instruments from the time of their origin" may seem a bit pretentious but these performances are far from it. Performing with smaller forces, in smaller venues with reverberant acoustics may have also have given the recording engineers kittens too but largely the sound on these discs is excellent. The performances are similarly impressive too. The recordings of the 1st and 2nd symphonies are an absolute joy, the 4th is another superb performance with a thrilling finale and the 7th is a triumph with a knockout first movement, , beautiful 2nd movement, relaxed presto and finale that is brisk and ultimately thrilling. Please don't get the impression that Haselbock is a speed merchant either. He conducts a deliberate and relaxed 6th with a great storm in which the woodwinds are a delight and a broad Eroica that is well-conceived but lacks Savall and Weil's drive. The 8th is good but the best here is a wonderful 5th that is thoroughly refreshing and may be one of the finest I've heard in a long time.The only performance that doesn't convince me here is the 9th, which I find to be a tad cumbersome, blended and lacks drive in the first two movements. It does end in a blaze of fury, with the choir caught very well, but it's not enough to rescue it for me. Make no bones about it, these are impressive performances and an excellent set with interesting fillers galore. Recommended enthusiastically.

_Grade A-_

*Suitner / Staatskapelle Berlin*









Suitner's Berlin cycle on Denon was one of the first to be recorded in the digital age and one I had to revisit after not listening to it in many years. Suitner was a decent conductor (listen to his Dvorak cycle for evidence of his skill) and this set only confirms that. This time I'll start with the negatives. The 4th is a chuggy, mid-tempo affair that is far too serious, the 5th only really gets going in the finale, the 8th is forceful when needed but lacks some joy and the 7th is a mixed bag (starting off promisingly before petering out a little. Elsewhere it's all good stuff. The Pastoral is a mid-paced very Bohm-ish reading that is gloriously realised and played and wouldn't sound amiss in Karajan's 63 cycle.THe 2nd symphony gets a great performance and Suitner's players really bring out the joy in the score. The 1st is lively and alert and the Eroica gets better as it goes along (the scherzo is delightful). However, *THE* performance here is the 9th. Never heard it? Do yourself a favour and pick it up! This is a powerhouse performance, karajan-esque in realisation and brilliantly played and recorded. Yes, it really is that good. Listen how Suitner makes that 2nd movement bounce at a surprisingly brisk pace and you'll hear what I mean, The adagio is lilting and beautiful and the whole account is taken a step up by a finale that has very good singing, fiery passion, depth and grunt in spades. This one really is one of the best in the catalogue! Suitner is defintely at his best in the quicker movements and really comes to life as the speeds increase across the set.

_Grade - B+_

*Tilson Thomas / English Chamber Orchestra*









This recently re-released set from Sony (Tilson Thomas conducts Beethoven) is a strange one. Recorded in the mid-80s it came and went without much fuss and that's partly because it's not a wholly succesful set. It's not a bad one, it's just not substantial enough! Tilson Thomas' decision to record with a chamber orchestra was a brave one at the time and he could possibly have pulled it off he'd put his foot on the gas a bit more. Like another Sony set (Giulini) this one is just too damned graceful at times. There's some lovely playing, sweet textures and inner detail in the 4th, a dainty HIP-ish but dull 6th and a lovely 7th that has some nice touches but ends in a robotic finale that is far too slow to carry any forward momentum. THe 1st and 2nd are pleasant but a little too chamber-like to keep your interest and the 5th is very boring indeed. Surprisingly, for such small forces, the 9th comes off as one of the best performances here. Like his San Francisco 9th it starts slowly but improves immeasurably towards the end and the finale is well-sung and well-sprung. I also rate the Eroica from this set highly as it's got way more heft than the rest of the set, is more briskly paced and has an urgency that many of these performances lack. I would urge you to listen to his far superior recordings in San Francisco (2nd, 5th, 7th and 9th) for much better LvB performances. The 7th and 9th from that part cycle are particularly impressive and really show what he can do with more substantial forces and a fleeter foot. As for this set, I'd say steer clear.

_Grade - C_

*Chung / Tokyo PO*









Another rare one (and one I've had for many years but rarely listened to). Myung Whun-Chung's live Tokyo cycle is a very surprising one. Speeds are generally brisk and some performances here are truly excellent. The 5th rightly brings the house down (in front of an enthusiastic audience) because it's powerful, sprightly, intense and brilliantly executed and is one I'll be revisiting again in the near future. Things go just as well in a bouyant and highly-charged 7th, decent 8th, enjoyable 4th and, particularly, a thoroughly engaging Eroica. Both the early symphonies are well-performed too. The account of the 6th may be more contentious as it's certainly not be for those that like a delicate amble through the countryside but I rather liked Chung's hob-nail boots stomp through the first movement and he gives the whole symphony a radical make-over with bold playing and a storm with umph. As I said, not everyone will like that but I do. It all sounds too good to be true? Well, sadly, their is one elephant in the room that needs addressing - the 9th! I've said it before about the 'Japanese way' of playing the 9th - as always slow, ponderous, wayyy too serious and never with the fleetness of even someone like Suitner (especially in the 2nd movement) this account drags. Please, please, please can just ONE Japanese orchestra play the 9th without all the bombast, turgid speeds and exactly the same way? Not only that but it was as though the guy who recorded the other 8 symphonies (and did an excellent job, btw) suddenly went on holiday and left it to someone without a single clue. This recording of the 9th is excessively bassy, bloated and frankly bloody awful. Don't let me put you off though because this is a very, very good set only soiled by that disastrous 9th. My advice is to get this set (if you ever see it for far less than the silly prices on the internet) throw that 9th disc in the bin and instead replace it with Chung's terrific Seoul live PO 9th. With that change this set would frankly be in the very top tier then.

_Grade - B+ / A-_

So another set of cycles reviewed and as always please feel free to add your own thoughts. A few of these surprised me as I hadn't listened to them in some time. What do you think?

Older reviews are linked below.....
Merl's Beethoven Symphony Cycles Pt13
Merl's Beethoven Symphony Cycle Reviews Pt12
Merl's Beethoven Syphony Cycle Reviews Pt11
Merl's Beethoven Symphony Cycle Reviews Pt10
Merl's Beethoven Symphony Cycle Reviews Pt9
Merl's Beethoven Symphony Cycle Reviews Pt8
Merl's Beethoven Symphony Cycle Reviews Pt7
Merl's Beethoven Symphony Cycle Reviews Pt6
Merl's Beethoven Symphony Cycle Reviews Pt5
Merl's Beethoven Symphony Cycle Reviews Pt4
Merl's Beethoven Symphony Cycle Reviews Pt3
Merl's Beethoven Symphony Cycle Review Pt2
Merl's Beethoven Symphony Cycle Reviews Pt1


----------



## Kiki (Aug 15, 2018)

Congratulations, Merl, for another great round of reviews!

I'm quite taken by Haselböck's cycle for its warmth, details and unforced momentum. For me No. 4 is the finest. At the other end of the spectrum, No. 9 sounds a bit matter-of-fact at places, and its rounded recording does not help either. The recording quality of the rest is good in general. The instruments were captured vividly in most symphonies, but I am disappointed by the annoyingly large number of clicks and screeches throughout the set. That's my biggest complaint. But performance-wise, it has now become one of my favourite cycles.

Have to admit I'm feeling very intrigued by your positive review of Myung-Whun Chung's Tokyo cycle. (I know very little of his work, but his unorthodox Mahler 9 and a sublime Daphnis et Chloé have cast a strong impression on me.) The Tokyo set is not on Spotify, but Chung’s Seoul No. 5 and No. 9 are. I don’t find them brisk in tempi in fact, but they do flow along fluently, and the singing seems very good. Oh well the Tokyo set is out-of-print. I’ll see if a cheap copy will pop up in Japan, but that probably would need to wait until after the global logistics has returned to normal.


----------



## Merl (Jul 28, 2016)

Kiki said:


> Congratulations, Merl, for another great round of reviews!
> 
> I'm quite taken by Haselböck's cycle for its warmth, details and unforced momentum. For me No. 4 is the finest. At the other end of the spectrum, No. 9 sounds a bit matter-of-fact at places, and its rounded recording does not help either. The recording quality of the rest is good in general. The instruments were captured vividly in most symphonies, but I am disappointed by the annoyingly large number of clicks and screeches throughout the set. That's my biggest complaint. But performance-wise, it has now become one of my favourite cycles.
> 
> Have to admit I'm feeling very intrigued by your positive review of Myung-Whun Chung's Tokyo cycle. (I know very little of his work, but his unorthodox Mahler 9 and a sublime Daphnis et Chloé have cast a strong impression on me.) The Tokyo set is not on Spotify, but Chung's Seoul No. 5 and No. 9 are. I don't find them brisk in tempi in fact, but they do flow along fluently, and the singing seems very good. Oh well the Tokyo set is out-of-print. I'll see if a cheap copy will pop up in Japan, but that probably would need to wait until after the global logistics has returned to normal.


I didn't say all of Chung's set or other recordings of his are brisk, just that some of the performances in his set are a little brisker than normal. For example his Eroica, from his cycle, is moderate speed but his 5th is much zipper. His Pastoral is mid-paced but the 7th is speedier. His Seoul 5th and 9th are far from brisk (both are moderate and the the 5th is fairly slow in places). I don't like Chung's Seoul 5th at all (it's boring) but it's nothing like the one from his cycle. The Seoul 9th is similarly far from brisk but its a decent, well-recorded performance and much better than the horrid one from the set so that's why I advised to swap them. As I said, I have a problem with many Japanese / Asian conductors and orchestras playing the 9th in that they all play it at moderate pace (or slower). I've heard quite a lot of the NHK Chronicles sets of 9ths from the 60s,70s and 80s, for example, and there's not one brisker recording in the lot. People often rave about the Wand 9th from those sets but it's just the same....slowwwwww first movement, tardy 2nd, broad adagio and accelerating finale. Formulaic. Le yawn.


----------



## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

Thanks for the updates. Always interesting. Too bad about the Dorati. I remember his televised Beethoven cycle from nearly 40 years with the Detroit Symphony. On PBS. Too bad those were never released as cds.


----------



## Merl (Jul 28, 2016)

mbhaub said:


> Thanks for the updates. Always interesting. Too bad about the Dorati. I remember his televised Beethoven cycle from nearly 40 years with the Detroit Symphony. On PBS. Too bad those were never released as cds.


I know, I'd love that set. If you ever come across them send me a PM. I know that WTVS still have them but I just wish they'd let us all access them. The saddest thing about the Dorati RPO set is it could have been so much better. Lets face it, he inspired a fairly shabby LSO to great accounts of the 5th, 6th and 7th symphonies. Maybe he just couldnt get the same enthusiasm with the RPO. Who knows? One theory was that the set was a contractual obligation so his heart wasnt in it.


----------



## DaddyGeorge (Mar 16, 2020)

I have read all your Beethoven Symphony cycles reviews with real interest and are very inspiring for me. Especially for recordings I don't know yet. Of course sometimes I do not quite agree, but very often I see it similarly, I just could not formulate it so nicely... I'm especially glad that you liked Haselböck's recording, which is also my favorite. Thanks!


----------



## Merl (Jul 28, 2016)

DaddyGeorge said:


> I have read all your Beethoven Symphony cycles reviews with real interest and are very inspiring for me. Especially for recordings I don't know yet. Of course sometimes I do not quite agree, but very often I see it similarly, I just could not formulate it so nicely... I'm especially glad that you liked Haselböck's recording, which is also my favorite. Thanks!


Thanks DG. I just wish he'd done a more exciting 9th. Otherwise there's nothing negative to say about Haselbock. Even the most sceptical will be impressed by his vision.


----------



## Bigbang (Jun 2, 2019)

I have been listening to Suitner's cycle and have been (suit)ably impressed. I think music like Beethoven affects me when I encounter it before hearing other works. For me it feels more intimate and conveys itself well. Btw, the overtures on my discs were well done, very good attacks and verve overall.

The last movement in second symphony I especially like. 
Eroica: works for me, seem to be top tier performance
4th: Did not care much for it (in car) but will replay later
5th: Not bad but I always think hard to mess it up (he takes repeats in 3rd movement and 4)
6th: I like this and I own many good ones
7th: I could not get too much out of this, but I get this feeling a lot in the 7th symphony.
8th: Maybe the weakest performance of the cycle for me
9th: I remember saying to myself long ago that this was not too good of a performance. Then I played it last week and thought, hey, this is good, first movement has that drive I like in the movement, and the singing is good, placed well. 

Funny thing is that I read reviews from the past. Some reviewers remember sneering at the cycle because of where it came from. Comments like " they sound like they were forced to show up to get a paycheck" to working in brick and mortar store and thinking this cannot be any good. Later, they go back and think this is really good.

I also put on rene leibowitz eroica--had to stop listening to it (given raves reviews for budget label) as it is what it seems--a budget label for the times. Very fast pace and ok but still no feeling is generated when I listen and Janos Ferencsik Eroica I stopped in the first movement due to poor playing, at least to my ears. At no time did I feel this way about Otmar Suitner cycle even on the weakest parts in my opinion or perception.

Plan on revisiting Joseph Krips cycle. The sound is not great but if I remember not bad interpretations. Did not see in your reviews.

Thanks for the review on Suitner.


----------



## Merl (Jul 28, 2016)

Bigbang said:


> I also put on rene leibowitz eroica--had to stop listening to it (given raves reviews for budget label) as it is what it seems--a budget label for the times. Very fast pace and ok but still no feeling is generated when I listen.......
> 
> .......Plan on revisiting Joseph Krips cycle. The sound is not great but if I remember not bad interpretations. Did not see in your reviews.
> 
> Thanks for the review on Suitner.


Granate didn't review the Krips or Leibowitz cycles due to their lack of availablity on CD at the time. The Krips cycle has been put out a number of times on CD over the years but they were all poor reproductions with flabby sound. The last time it appeared (correct me if I'm wrong) was on the Madacy label and the 1960 set was fully remastered from the 35mm film that was originally licensed to Everest and issued in a tin can ('Krips in a Can'). Perhaps those two are a pair of cycles I should revisit on my next round-up. I have the Krips tin can remasters but haven't played them in a long while. I do remember them being a little quicker than I expected in some movements and very 'big band' Beethoven. Most people are familiar with Leibowitz's brisk cycle and it was availavle incredibly cheaply as a 320k download on Amazon a few years back. This is what I said about both in Granate's original thread in response to his comment about not including them, however bear in mind that I hadn't heard the remasters of the Krips set at the time.



Merl said:


> Leibowitz has always been a good, solid no-frills set with quicker tempi than those that followed but no real stand-out performance. The Krips set sounds very dated.....


I'll go through my sets later and see if both are worth reviewing, considering that many know the Leibowitz recordings well. Incidentally the Krips tin can set is still available.


----------



## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

These reviews are interesting but I must confess I’ve got so many Beethoven Symphony cycles that with performances available on Spotify I’m not going to invest in anymore simply because I don’t think anybody is got anything particularly more to say that is particularly interesting and worth buying. It is amazing the number of sets that were made during the heyday of LP when it seems everybody and everybody was making a set of the Beethoven symphonies. I just wonder how many of them ever made a profit. There are many worthy sets around but not for repeated listening. It was interesting that even Karajan’s last set did not arouse much enthusiasm, not because it was bad, but because it simply did not add much to what he had recorded already


----------



## Merl (Jul 28, 2016)

DavidA said:


> ...It is amazing the number of sets that were made during the heyday of LP when it seems everybody and everybody was making a set of the Beethoven symphonies. I just wonder how many of them ever made a profit.


Lol, probably very few of them made a profit, DavidA, but, like you said, I think for many conductors and labels the LvB cycle was seen as a right of passage, especially in the 60s, 70s and 80s. Apart from Karajan and a few others, I'll guess that only a few of these sets likely broke even and most are just curios. However, that's not the reason for reviewing them. I admit to a fanatical relationship with Beethoven's symphonies and I just like to pass on my thoughts on these lesser known or rarer sets, some of which had no or very few reviews, even though only some are worthy of greater praise. As far as having something extra to say, of that last batch I think the Haselbock set does add something new (it's only just been completed too) but understand that for most people they are happy with what they have. If any of these reviews help someone choose a new set then I'm happy I've at least tried to contribute to that. I'd guess that for most normal people around 2-4 sets is as far as they'd go but for someone as obsessive as me I wont be happy till I've heard the lot. Maybe I need a new hobby.......:lol:


----------



## Bigbang (Jun 2, 2019)

Merl said:


> Granate didn't review the Krips or Leibowitz cycles due to their lack of availablity on CD at the time. The Krips cycle has been put out a number of times on CD over the years but they were all poor reproductions with flabby sound. The last time it appeared (correct me if I'm wrong) was on the Madacy label and the 1960 set was fully remastered from the 35mm film that was originally licensed to Everest and issued in a tin can ('Krips in a Can'). Perhaps those two are a pair of cycles I should revisit on my next round-up. I have the Krips tin can remasters but haven't played them in a long while. I do remember them being a little quicker than I expected in some movements and very 'big band' Beethoven. Most people are familiar with Leibowitz's brisk cycle and it was availavle incredibly cheaply as a 320k download on Amazon a few years back. This is what I said about both in Granate's original thread in response to his comment about not including them, however bear in mind that I hadn't heard the remasters of the Krips set at the time.
> 
> I'll go through my sets later and see if both are worth reviewing, considering that many know the Leibowitz recordings well. Incidentally the Krips tin can set is still available.


All up to you. I am listening to Krips 8th--label is biscol, probably same as tin can. Best way to describe sound is it sounds like Beethoven has a cold :lol:, music is there but just not the same as modern recordings. Given the historical recordings I do not think it matters much if bought for nothing. I bought all my cycles second hand and Krips was 50 cent per cd. For some reason I like the "old" days and seldom look for new recordings. I like this Krip cycle because I am interested in hearing it so something is working. There is this guy on amazon who says he has 10 cycles of Beethoven, and so many 9th, and yet he claims the Krips 9th is best he has heard. Well, when I find mine somewhere in the house I will see how it stacks up to my 10 plus 9th I own. As I listen to Krips 8th now I am hearing a performance that is not driven too hard, a nice touch to this work.


----------



## Bigbang (Jun 2, 2019)

DavidA said:


> These reviews are interesting but I must confess I've got so many Beethoven Symphony cycles that with performances available on Spotify I'm not going to invest in anymore simply because I don't think anybody is got anything particularly more to say that is particularly interesting and worth buying. It is amazing the number of sets that were made during the heyday of LP when it seems everybody and everybody was making a set of the Beethoven symphonies. I just wonder how many of them ever made a profit. There are many worthy sets around but not for repeated listening. It was interesting that even Karajan's last set did not arouse much enthusiasm, not because it was bad, but because it simply did not add much to what he had recorded already


I agree. I own all 3 Karajan 9th. I think the last is more relaxed and I heard complaints on the choral on his last one but all in all, top tier performances. I own individual Karajan Beethoven (5+6)(7+8) but I have never felt I should put out when I can stream a performance when I want. As I mentioned in previous post I am more interested in past performances of the old days than the new ones that come up...I mean, can they possibly put that same feeling into the cycle from bygone era? I have listened to some and I will admit Merl has me checking on some of the "A" list but given I feel I own the best of all the individual symphonies, I am content.


----------



## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

I have checked back with this round of reviews to see if it covered the Haselbock / Wiener Akademie recordings that I have been listening to recently. What a wonderful set it is (I'm so glad Merl agrees). Firstly, it is the first HIP set I have heard that does full justice to these works. It is one I suspect even the HIP-unconvinced will warm to as it is so well played, as it doesn't set out to demonstrate a concept (like Gardiner's) or play the music faster than ever before (like Norrington's first set?) and it presents these works as symphonies of great power and inspiration (qualities that Krivine and van Immerseel could quite manage). But, for all that, it is perhaps more radical than any of them. Secondly, it is as good as any set - whether HIP or historical or "conventional" - in giving us very exciting, beautiful and involving (as appropriate) Beethoven that is really well played. I can imagine recommending it as a sole set and each of the performances (I've heard all but the 9th) as among the top 3 or 4 for each symphony.


----------



## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

Thanks, Merl! I am still gearing up for an evening session with No.9 from one of your earlier recs, Skrowaczewski. I got sidetracked with two months of jazz listening. That image of ol' Ludwig on the Haselbock cover is appropriate for this Covid lockdown. B looks like he lost 30 lbs after a month long battle with the virus.


----------



## chlupatyrichard (9 d ago)

mbhaub said:


> Thanks for the updates. Always interesting. Too bad about the Dorati. I remember his televised Beethoven cycle from nearly 40 years with the Detroit Symphony. On PBS. Too bad those were never released as cds.


Hi there MBHaub

These Detroit live performances have in fact been brought out by the Doráti Society, both as DVDs and CDs, plus downloads.


----------

