# End of a debate!



## Daniel

Folks!

It is time again to remind you on our forum rules, especially the following part:

_*Guidelines for General Behavior*_
_Be polite to your fellow members. If you disagree with them, please state your opinion in a »civil« and respectful manner._
_Do not post comments about other members person or »posting style« on the forum (unless said comments are unmistakably positive). Argue opinions all you like but do not get personal and never resort to »ad homs«._

The close past has shown us again how dishonourable some opinions can be texted.
I will NOT name any individuals now, because this post shall set an end to this debate.
This is not the place to accuse or point at members and give them any "fault".

IF ANY MEMBER WILL TAKE UP THIS MATTER AGAIN SHE OR HE WILL BE IMMEDIATELY PERMANENTELY BANNED WITHOUT ANY WARNING. IT IS NOT ALLOWED TO ARGUE ABOUT THIS DECISION. IT IS FINAL, FOR THE SAKE OF ALL MEMBERS.

Do you know, how much time we all spend into this affair again? It is not worth to waste your and our time in a childish and immature discussion.

Kind regards,
Daniel


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## Manuel

> I will NOT name any individuals now, because this post shall set an end to this debate.


And what if someone who is doing this doesn't realize he (or she) is actually doing it? An apparent persistence in the forbidden _style_, that could be mistakenly read as bad intentioned, perhaps is nothing more than the ignorance of parameters that set a "civilized chat".
On the other hand, there's not an equal distribution of power here: you mods have it, and we regular posters not. So it's you (as group) who are setting those parameters.
It has been confirmed recently that not all posts are _appreciated _the same way, neither everything is read or understood equally by all members here. What looked like an enthusiast comment for someone was hiding defamatory and hideous intentions for others. So, giving names (a thoughtful black list of TC members) would actually be the best procedure at this instance; as those who are not listed will know which direction their posting style should take (nevermind the collateral style homogenization).


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## opus67

Manuel said:


> So, giving names (a thoughtful black list of TC members) would actually be the best procedure at this instance; as those who are not listed will know which direction their posting style should take (nevermind the collateral style homogenization).


I suggest that those members be notified by PM and given warnings, if needed.


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## Guest

Daniel said:


> The close past has shown us again ...


I think also that you could have reacted more quickly. The forum needs perhaps an other moderator, as it is now flourishing (  ) ...


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## Daniel

Dear Manuel,

there will be no "black list".


Dear Alnitak,

A new moderator, perhaps. I am sorry, that the reaction came needed some time, but Krummhorn and I really did so as soon as possible.
Please be aware, that we both have offline-lives as well, we simply cannot appear immediately if some reports a post or a hot debate is flaming.
Do you know how much time we spent into reading all those threads, PMs, reported posts? How much time it costed to answer them, to sort out and to find a proper solution for everyone? It is a place "between the seats". I don't complain, but I hope you respect my point as well (probably, as I can see on your smiling Smiley).

Daniel


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## Manuel

> Do you know how much time we spent into reading all those threads, PMs, reported posts?


Well... what you were reading in those threads were our interventions there. In other words, we wrote that. (I know you were asking Alnitak, but I'll answer myself). We do know how much time it takes.

On the other hand, I accept we don't have to deal with PMs and reports, so apparently our things-to-do list is lighter. But
what you didn't mention is that the proper solution involved removing some of those posts we had carefully elaborated. Even though I'm completely aware of the fact that deciding which posts should be harvested and which ones should remain demands time and consideration, I don't think it can take more time than elaborating them (which is, undoubtedly, what we did from this side).


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## Krummhorn

It's not as simple as deleting every single reported post willy-nilly. If we did that, this forum would more holes in it than swiss* cheese. There would be absolutely no continuity in the threads and posts and topics of discussion could be lost. 

When a member reports a post, we receive a notification via email. As Daniel stated above, we aren't always going to be able to drop everything else in our personal lives and jump straight away into the forum pages. Once we do login to the forum, we are then in the 'investigative mode' ... looking at the situation(s) from a 3rd person view - totally impartial - and then we must evaluate what is best for the forum. Daniel and I also act in accordance with each other on some issues, which can add to the total response time. 

A good analogy of this process is when a multiple car accident occurs. The drivers have all determined who hit who and who is at fault, but when the constables arrive, they do not just start writing tickets ... no, they have to investigate the entire issue at hand. 

We will make every effort possible to quickly handle things that go awry here - but please remember that we are only human.

*For the record, no offense meant to any of our members here who are of Swiss heritage!


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## Frasier

As you (moderators) know, I find moderation here to be heavy-handed and draconian at times. Certainly more school-masterly than anywhere else. So it might be better to take on a couple more moderators to keep up the same standard and perhaps catch problems sooner.

After all, one cannot expect just two guys to give up what amounts to a LOT of time, day in, day out, to keep track of what's going on.

There is only one rule of importance, because it overrides all the others:


> "The owners of Talk Classical reserve the right to remove, edit, move or close any thread _*for any reason*_."


So, when you post, you do so in recognition of that right.

E.F


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## Guest

Daniel said:


> Dear Alnitak, etc...


Of course, I respect your point.

But, when you say that :

_Krummhorn and you really react as soon as possible […], you both have offline-lives as well, and simply cannot appear immediately; […] and spend so much time into reading all those threads, PMs, and reported posts, to answer them, to sort out and to find a proper solution for everyone…_

I understand that you rather agree with us to appoint a new moderator… 

Am I wrong?


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## Chi_townPhilly

I think the point that needs to be made is...

rather than add to the moderation team, wouldn't it be better adopt the kind of comportment that lightens the load of the moderators?? The way we can do this is to keep in mind the following four key items:

1. Avoid inciting interpersonal confrontations. _That_ shows disrespect for fellow posters.
2. Don't make pejorative comments about a fellow member's posting style.
3. Don't get personal.
4. Don't resort to _ad hominem_ attacks. (Probably best to apply this to all of one's topic matter, not just fellow posters). 

Certain topics which violate none of the above have nonetheless proven to be "high-maintenance" for the moderation team. I (however belatedly) now completely understand the choice of the moderators to keep such topics closed.

I believe the aforementioned covers about 90+% of "problem posts." As I've said elsewhere, one might find the path narrow, but it's really rather well-marked.


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## Krummhorn

Another point: if you don't like a particular thread topic, then just leave it alone and don't respond. Eventually, with no further posts, it will descend to the bottom of the pages here and be forgotten. Sometimes this is the best road to take. There is enough anger in the world today ... maybe we can find some peace within these cyber walls.

And last, but not least: We (and I include myself) are all GUESTS here of Frederik Magle, who has so graciously allowed us to have this discussion forum place. Frederik is the one keeping the lights on here - and we owe him a lot of gratitude and respect.


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## Chi_townPhilly

Krummhorn said:


> And last, but not least: We (and I include myself) are all GUESTS here of Frederik Magle, who has so graciously allowed us to have this discussion forum place. Frederik is the one keeping the lights on here - and we owe him a lot of gratitude and respect.


"Then, Frederik/let your escort, lion-hearted/be summoned to receive a General's blessing!" Excerpt from Gilbert & Sullivan's "The Pirates of Penzance"  

With tensions being as they are, I just thought it was time for a little comic relief.

Thanks again, guys.


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## opus67

Krummhorn said:


> Another point: if you don't like a particular thread topic, then just leave it alone and don't respond. Eventually, with no further posts, it will descend to the bottom of the pages here and be forgotten. Sometimes this is the best road to take. There is enough anger in the world today ... maybe we can find some peace within these cyber walls.


Hear, hear.


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## Guest

Well, I have missed all the fun, *DAMN DAMN *and *DAMN*
As all posters will know it is so easy to give and receive offence from the written word you just have to be careful with what you commit to print. 
We had members resign from the site well before we had moderators and for reasons known only to themselves so don't blame the moderators.
Any hint of ad hom must be dealt with straight away and IMHO a PM is the way to go, if that has no effect then a ban must be considered, as the site becomes more populated the need for moderators will increase, it is a fact of life, so, lets get on with it and not be bitchy.


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## Violin_Frenzy

Possibly the funniest thing I have ever read...


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## Guest

Violin_Frenzy said:


> Possibly the funniest thing I have ever read...


 What is??????


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## D Minor

Daniel said:


> I am convinced that our decisions were the right ones, and I want to affirm, that we apply all our time here for a most suitable and encouraging platform for music and to guarantee a polite, comfortable and familiar atmosphere in respect and open minds.


Certainly, Daniel.

But, are you also convinced that your decisions are the right ones when you change the meaning of posts?


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## Daniel

I have never changed the meanings of posts. Posts only have been removed or have been partly deleted, if they had violated the rules. If some of those posts somehow remain out of context afterwards, it has nothing to do with this necessary moderation for itself; or the author should let us know if she/he wants the whole post being deleted in this cases. That's all...


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## D Minor

Probably, you did not. But what about Krummhorn? BTW, I understand that you can make mistakes: “Errare humanum est”, don’t you think so?


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## Krummhorn

Hello D Minor,

When a posting is in violation of the forum rules (ad homs, etc) I edit out only what is absolutely necessary. I have never have altered a post deliberately just to change its meaning. We will leave intact as much as possible sometimes having to resort to entering "[edited]" into a sentence where we have removed an offending word or phrase.

Daniel and I are obligated to the forum owner, Frederik Magle, to protect his best interests. He is, after all, the one person keeping the lights on here. If we were doing something wrong in our moderating, Frederik would certainly let us know about it ... and believe me, he does keep a watchful eye on his forums.

Kh


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## D Minor

Like dictators, I guess you do like to have the final word. - Why not?

In any case, this thread (or you) is supposed to put an end to the debate, right?


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## Daniel

_Indeed: We put an end to this debate. This thread is closed._


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