# Handel's keyboard suites



## beetzart (Dec 30, 2009)

I have been listening to Handel's keyboard suites HWV 426-433 and there is something quite magical about them but I can't quite work out what it is. Are they better/on par with Bach's English or French suites? I honestly couldn't say but they are so sublime with the passacaglia in the penultimate suite in G minor being one of the high points.


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## Ras (Oct 6, 2017)

I like to hear them on piano. *Keith Jarett on ECM* is my first choice, but *Lisa Smirnova *on the same label is also good. When I hear them I think they are just as good as Bach's keyboard music, but then a few weeks after I catch myself forgetting about Handel and listening to Bach for the zillion'th time! Go figure! 
*Ragna Schirmer on Berlin Classics is also good. 
I dislike S. Richter and A. Gavrilov on EMI.*


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## beetzart (Dec 30, 2009)

The versions you dislike are the ones I have, there is too much background noise, shuffling sounds. I will though look into getting the piano recordings you mention. Like you I prefer the piano version of these suites.


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## Ras (Oct 6, 2017)

beetzart said:


> The versions you dislike are the ones I have, there is too much background noise, shuffling sounds. I will though look into getting the piano recordings you mention. Like you I prefer the piano version of these suites.


Yes, the bad sound on the EMI recordings with Richter and Gavrilov is the main reason I would suggest looking elsewhere.

I forgot something important though:

-* Jarett only plays 7 suites: HWV: 452, 447, 440, 433, 427, 429, 426

*- *Smirnova plays the 8 suites composed 1720

*- *Ragna Schirmer plays both the suites from 1720 and 1733 - Hwv: 426-441. *

I have all of this on cds but I think they are all on www.spotify.com


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## Bluecrab (Jun 24, 2014)

beetzart said:


> The versions you dislike are the ones I have, there is too much background noise, shuffling sounds.


Then you should listen to the Keith Jarrett ECM recording that Ras mentioned above (I have it too). You won't hear a better recording. ECM has long been well known for the superior technical quality of its recordings.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

beetzart said:


> I have been listening to Handel's keyboard suites HWV 426-433 and there is something quite magical about them but I can't quite work out what it is. Are they better/on par with Bach's English or French suites? I honestly couldn't say but they are so sublime with the passacaglia in the penultimate suite in G minor being one of the high points.


What do you think of Glenn Gould's recording?


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

On piano I think probably I’ve enjoyed Eric Heidsieck most, it looks as though they’re on YouTube.


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## premont (May 7, 2015)

Mandryka said:


> What do you think of Glenn Gould's recording?


Yes even Glenn Gould thought, that these suites were best suited for harpsichord.

Something for pianophiles to consider.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

premont said:


> Yes even Glenn Gould thought, that these suites were best suited for harpsichord.


I just think that what Gould does with the Handel suites is unlistenable, dreadful.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Here's one






There are two important composers that Leonhardt didn't record much of, Handel and Buxtehude. In the case of Handel we know that he didn't rate the music very highly; but why so little Buxtehude?

There's a comment on youtube which seems astonishing to me, I just don't understand how anyone could say it, and it's echoed by an idea in the initial post of this thread.



> Con obras como las "grandes suites de 1720" me cuesta entender a los que dicen que Handel no tiene la misma complejidad en la escritura clavecinistica que Bach.


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## premont (May 7, 2015)

Mandryka said:


> I just think that what Gould does with the Handel suites is unlistenable, dreadful.


I have disposed of the Gould/Händel CD long time ago, and my comment above was ironically meant.


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## premont (May 7, 2015)

Mandryka said:


> Here's one
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Maybe the pedal parts were generally too difficult for him.


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## premont (May 7, 2015)

Mandryka said:


> Here's one
> 
> There's a comment on youtube which seems astonishing to me, I just don't understand how anyone could say it, and it's echoed by an idea in the initial post of this thread.


Which comment do you think of?


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

premont said:


> Maybe the pedal parts were generally too difficult.


Oh yes, I remember now that he wasn't confident about pedal technique. In fact I have three pieces of Buxtehude by him, I don't know if they're manualiter pieces.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

premont said:


> Which comment do you think of?


The one in Spanish under that Leonhardt clip which is saying that Handel's suites are as complex as Bach's


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## premont (May 7, 2015)

beetzart said:


> I have been listening to Handel's keyboard suites HWV 426-433 and there is something quite magical about them but I can't quite work out what it is. *Are they better/on par with Bach's English or French suites? *.


This is an essentially uninteresting question, which only serves to confuse listeners.


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## premont (May 7, 2015)

Mandryka said:


> The one in Spanish under that Leonhardt clip which is saying that Handel's suites are as complex as Bach's


It must be someone without much musical knowledge. His second comment, that Leonhardt's Händel interpretation is more alive than his Bach interpretations is equally difficult to take seriously.



> Una maravilla Leonhardt, su Handel suena mas vivo y fresco que sus interpretaciones de Bach.﻿


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## BiscuityBoyle (Feb 5, 2018)

What's wrong with how Richter and Gavrilov play them though?

I really love the ninth suite in g minor HWV 439. Can't be played any better on the piano than here (although it's heavier on the sostenuto pedal than Vedernikov's acclaimed Bach recordings), the gigue is such a tour de force in velocity and precision


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## Eva Yojimbo (Jan 30, 2016)

Huge fan of Handel's Keyboard Suites. I amassed many recordings (probably over a dozen) when I went through my Handel obsession many years ago. Because it's been so long, it's difficult for me to rate/rank the sets I have. On piano, I remember really enjoying Danny Driver and Ragna Schirmer (latter recorded both suites). On Harpsichord there's even more good choices: Egarr and Nicholson for the first suite, Borgstede and Yates for both of them. Personally, I do prefer them to Bach's suites, but I generally enjoy Handel more than Bach in most genres.


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## David Phillips (Jun 26, 2017)

I agree that Ragna Schirmer's performances of the suites are definitely worth having.


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

I prefer the suites on harpsichord and have greatly enjoyed Dantone, Nicholson, Ross and Verlet. On piano, Richter is most appealing, and the sound doesn't bother me at all. As for Gould, I think well of his set.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Bulldog said:


> As for Gould, I think well of his set.


The placing of the voices sounds too out of sync to me -- as if there are two voices playing which aren't interacting much. If you're going to play with voices which aren't lined up like rows of soldiers, I think it must be quite difficult to make it work.

And the instrument sounds weird to me, the harmonies, much more so than Verlet who, I guess, is using the Colmar Ruckers tuned 1/4 comma mean-tone, I don't have the booklets so I can't easily find out about which harpsichord he or Verlet were using.

I wonder if there are any recordings of Gould playing Handel on piano. I believe that he was going to record them on piano but the plug was pulled. There are so many video recordings of Gould now available that there could well be some Handel on piano buried in there.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Last night I listened to Fou Ts'Ong play a Handel suite, romantic piano style, it's on spotify.

This is an old piano recording


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## premont (May 7, 2015)

Mandryka said:


> And the instrument sounds weird to me, the harmonies, much more so than Verlet who, I guess, is using the Colmar Ruckers tuned 1/4 comma mean-tone, I don't have the booklets so I can't easily find out about which harpsichord he or Verlet were using.
> 
> I wonder if there are any recordings of Gould playing Handel on piano. I believe that he was going to record them on piano but the plug was pulled. There are so many video recordings of Gould now available that there could well be some Handel on piano buried in there.


All I can find about Verlet's Händel suites is that the instrument was made by William Dowd. I think you are right about the 1/4 komma meantone.

Glenn Gould uses for Händel a revival instrument, as far as I recall a Wittmeyer, without doubt equally tuned..


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

For music as classically staid as Handel's, the keyboard suites MUST be played at fast tempo, showing facility. They are too harmonically predictable otherwise, for me. Of course, I have good ears and always listen to what music is doing harmonically. Richter satisfies this, and seems to be the permanent choice for me. I've run across two Richter-only editions, one on Yedang, and one on Testament. Being Russian recordings, these seem to appear in different licensing versions in the West. Then, there is the EMI edition, which is not all Richter.


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

millionrainbows said:


> For music as classically staid as Handel's, the keyboard suites MUST be played at fast tempo, showing facility. They are too harmonically predictable otherwise, for me. Of course, I have good ears and always listen to what music is doing harmonically.


I've not seen your ears, so I don't know if they look good or not. Any chance you will offer a photo of your ears; you seem to be very impressed with them.


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## BiscuityBoyle (Feb 5, 2018)

millionrainbows said:


> For music as classically staid as Handel's, the keyboard suites MUST be played at fast tempo, showing facility. They are too harmonically predictable otherwise, for me. Of course, I have good ears and always listen to what music is doing harmonically. Richter satisfies this


I must say that prescribing a tempo based on a composer's harmonic repertoire to strikes me as idiosyncratic... But check this comparison someone did, where Richter isn't the fastest.


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## Razumovskymas (Sep 20, 2016)

beetzart said:


> I have been listening to Handel's keyboard suites HWV 426-433 and there is something quite magical about them but I can't quite work out what it is. Are they better/on par with Bach's English or French suites? I honestly couldn't say but they are so sublime with the passacaglia in the penultimate suite in G minor being one of the high points.


Händels's suites aren't anywhere near the perfection of Bachs' keyboard work and that's what makes them actually better, more charming and more lovable!

At their best they overclass Bach in individuality and sheer joy and inspiration, at worst you could say some pieces are a bit messy and not wel constructed (just a feeling of mine).

I add to that that they gain sympathy in the knowledge that they're probably "in between" works, although that's NO EXCUSE FOR ANYTHING!

I have Lisa Smirnova's 8 grossen suiten and they're ok but I really mis a good recording without that awful reverb. I wish Gould recorded them all with his lovely recording style (on Steinway though). His harpsichord recordings are a nice addition of course.

But what's really worth while is Eva Maria Pollerus 8 suites on Harpsichord. She used the "embellished version by Gottlieb Muffat". We all know embellishments where rarely included in baroque scores. Well apparently this Mr Muffat made a score with all embellishments included and Oh boy!! If you think Baroque is over the top in it's own, well, listen to this!! I must warn you though, it can be addictive (for those who are into it) and I'm afraid listening to them too much on my headphones at high volume worsened my tinnitus at some point!!


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## Razumovskymas (Sep 20, 2016)

millionrainbows said:


> For music as classically staid as Handel's, the keyboard suites MUST be played at fast tempo, showing facility. They are too harmonically predictable otherwise, for me. Of course, I have good ears and always listen to what music is doing harmonically. Richter satisfies this, and seems to be the permanent choice for me. I've run across two Richter-only editions, one on Yedang, and one on Testament. Being Russian recordings, these seem to appear in different licensing versions in the West. Then, there is the EMI edition, which is not all Richter.


Millionrainbows, promotor of atonal music and the likes, being appreciative of Händel, what a nice surprise! :tiphat:


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

Razumovskymas said:


> Millionrainbows, promotor of atonal music and the likes, being appreciative of Händel, what a nice surprise! :tiphat:


I must be one of those "modernists" that they ran off! :lol:

My ears don't lie. Richter is brilliant.


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## Gallus (Feb 8, 2018)

Murray Perahia does a great recording of three of the suites on this album.


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## BiscuityBoyle (Feb 5, 2018)

millionrainbows said:


> Richter is brilliant.


Only idiots would argue with that. But if you insist they should be played at a fast tempo, listen to the comparison I linked to.


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