# Brahms and Clara Schumann



## Judith (Nov 11, 2015)

Think Brahms experiences in the seedy taverns when he was young made it difficult for him to form relationships when he became older!

An example is when Robert died, he still loved Clara but don't think he knew how to handle it!

What does anyone else think?


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## Guest (Oct 27, 2017)

Judith said:


> Think Brahms experiences in the seedy taverns when he was young made it difficult for him to form relationships when he became older!
> 
> An example is when Robert died, he still loved Clara but don't think he knew how to handle it!
> 
> What does anyone else think?


I recommend the excellent and comprehensive biography of Brahms by Jan Swafford. Very readable and the book clearly spells out the situation with the Schumann/Brahms relationship.


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## eugeneonagain (May 14, 2017)

What were Brahms's seedy experiences in taverns? Was he using prostitutes, perhaps caught an STI? I have to admit the little I know about this supposed great love triangle doesn't strike me as compelling, but I am willing to learn.


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## jegreenwood (Dec 25, 2015)

CountenanceAnglaise said:


> I recommend the excellent and comprehensive biography of Brahms by Jan Swafford. Very readable and the book clearly spells out the situation with the Schumann/Brahms relationship.


Second this. It goes into great detail of Brahms's relationship with Clara as well as with a number of other women over the course of his life.


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## Judith (Nov 11, 2015)

CountenanceAnglaise said:


> I recommend the excellent and comprehensive biography of Brahms by Jan Swafford. Very readable and the book clearly spells out the situation with the Schumann/Brahms relationship.


Will look for this book thank you. Reading Trio by Roman Desai which is a novel biography about the three!


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## Judith (Nov 11, 2015)

eugeneonagain said:


> What were Brahms's seedy experiences in taverns? Was he using prostitutes, perhaps caught an STI? I have to admit the little I know about this supposed great love triangle doesn't strike me as compelling, but I am willing to learn.


His father made him perform in music halls, taverns etc whilst he was young. There were girls in the establishments that were befriending him and showing him life including in one of them, the landlady. (If you know what I mean)! Result, didn't know any better around Women.


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## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

Brahms was a good-looking chap when he was younger - I'd be very surprised to learn that he didn't sow his wild oats somewhere along the line. I would guess that Clara stayed faithful to Robert's memory after he died and that there was nothing going on between her and Brahms when Schumann was alive despite the enormous pressure their marriage was often under - if it's the case that Clara remained loyal then I wouldn't have expected Brahms to be any less the gentleman, however ardent his feelings.


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## brianvds (May 1, 2013)

elgars ghost said:


> Brahms was a good-looking chap when he was younger - I'd be very surprised to learn that he didn't sow his wild oats somewhere along the line.


A lot of them slept around wildly in their youth - it's quite possible that some of them have living descendants that we don't know about.


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## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

brianvds said:


> A lot of them slept around wildly in their youth - it's quite possible that some of them have living descendants that we don't know about.


Plenty of Hugo Wolfcubs, for instance?


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## Guest (Oct 29, 2017)

I think Brahms had some psycho-sexual issues, for sure. He ran away from relationships with women his own age, sometimes right at the the critical juncture. He was infatuated with Clara Schumann when he first met her and this developed into a lifelong platonic love, but he was often cruel to her. His own mother had been many years older than his father and his interest in much older women probably arose, in part, from that and the fact that it seemed to offer an assurance of going no further. Later, of course, he became hopelessly infatuated with *Clara's daughter* Julie Schumann (who died in her early 20s). It's pathetic to read about such 'incestuous' longings from Brahms. And there's no evidence of Clara being anything but sympathetic when she discovered her friend's obsession!! I find that bizarre.

In the final analysis Brahms, like Beethoven before him, found 'no second self'. Both men were literally consumed by their art and found little room for anything else which would distract their attention. Infatuations and unrequited passions were part of their emotional landscape; I'm speculating that this was because the idea was more attractive to them than the reality. And when you live your life in the compositional realm of the aesthetic ideal it's very easy to see how that could be transmuted to female beauty and desirability.


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## Triplets (Sep 4, 2014)

The older Brahms was known to frequent Vienna's Brothels, where he was apparently known as "the Professor" to the girls he visited.
He apparently would recommend some of these ladies to his friends. This is all freely discussed in Swafford.


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## Guest (Oct 29, 2017)

Triplets said:


> The older Brahms was known to frequent Vienna's Brothels, where he was apparently known as "the Professor" to the girls he visited.
> He apparently would recommend some of these ladies to his friends. This is all freely discussed in Swafford.


Yes, I've read it. Such a pity that he brought himself so low!!


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Beethoven is thought by some to have visited prostitutes in his 40s with his friend Zmeskall. This idea was put forward in the 1950s by the Sterbas based on letters with what seemed to be code-words. It was supported more recently by Solomon. Others, such as Barry Cooper, are far from convinced.


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## Guest (Oct 29, 2017)

KenOC said:


> Beethoven is thought by some to have visited prostitutes in his 40s with his friend Zmeskall. This idea was put forward in the 1950s by the Sterbas based on letters with what seemed to be code-words. It was supported more recently by Solomon. Others, such as Barry Cooper, are far from convinced.


I'm sorry to say it all smacks horribly of misogyny. I think Brahms was definitely a misogynist!!


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## Triplets (Sep 4, 2014)

CountenanceAnglaise said:


> I'm sorry to say it all smacks horribly of misogyny. I think Brahms was definitely a misogynist!!


How so ? Does frequenting Prostitutes make a man a misogynist? Brahms apparently treated the women rather well and they were apparently fond of him.


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## Guest (Oct 30, 2017)

Triplets said:


> How so ? Does frequenting Prostitutes make a man a misogynist? Brahms apparently treated the women rather well and they were apparently fond of him.


You're kidding me, right? Read Swafford. He generally treated the women close to him rather shabbily and in a cavalier manner; that's putting it kindly. And he patronized Clara Schumann by telling her she should give up playing the piano in concerts and attend more to the home.


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## brianvds (May 1, 2013)

Triplets said:


> How so ? Does frequenting Prostitutes make a man a misogynist? Brahms apparently treated the women rather well and they were apparently fond of him.


Yup. Or rather, he may have been a misogynist, but making use of the services of prostitutes surely doesn't have anything to do with it. Neither does it mean he "brought himself low," as someone else argued. Only way it would mean that would be if he made use of their services and then refused to pay.


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## Guest (Oct 30, 2017)

brianvds said:


> Yup. Or rather, he may have been a misogynist, but making use of the services of prostitutes surely doesn't have anything to do with it. Neither does it mean he "brought himself low," as someone else argued. Only way it would mean that would be if he made use of their services and then refused to pay.


When you are one of the greatest cultural figures in Europe you are most certainly brought low frequenting prostitutes and not having a healthy relationship with a woman.


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## tdc (Jan 17, 2011)

CountenanceAnglaise said:


> When you are one of the greatest cultural figures in Europe you are most certainly brought low frequenting prostitutes and not having a healthy relationship with a woman.


Relationships require a lot of sacrifice, and a lot of that sacrifice is time. I think some composers knew they would be terrible in relationships because their first priority was music, therefore rather than put a woman through the hell of such a relationship they chose to live their life differently.

You may say Brahms would be better off in a healthy relationship, but a 'healthy relationship' would quite possibly negate much of his music, and perhaps the quality would suffer as well, it is hard to say.

There are some composers who have had seemingly healthy relationships (how much do we know about that?) but generally this involves one person making a lot of sacrifices and basically a dedication of their life towards the composer's music.


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## Guest (Oct 30, 2017)

tdc said:


> Relationships require a lot of sacrifice, and a lot of that sacrifice is time. I think some composers knew they would be terrible in relationships because their first priority was music, therefore rather than put a woman through the hell of such a relationship they chose to live their life differently.
> 
> You may say Brahms would be better off in a healthy relationship, but a 'healthy relationship' would quite possibly negate much of his music, and perhaps the quality would suffer as well, it is hard to say.
> 
> There are some composers who have had seemingly healthy relationships (how much do we know about that?) but generally this involves one person making a lot of sacrifices and basically a dedication of their life towards the composer's music.


What you've said is quite correct but I stand by what I said. Brahms had psycho-sexual hangups and attitudes towards women which were not 'mainstream'. It is sleazy when a person frequents prostitutes for most of their adult life and there's no getting around that. Beethoven probably did the same. Both men had difficulties in relationships with women, sadly, but Brahms was very chauvenistic, arguably misogynistic in the cruel way he treated women who loved him. I've been on this planet long enough to know that the man who likes women doesn't treat them this way.


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## Triplets (Sep 4, 2014)

CountenanceAnglaise said:


> You're kidding me, right? Read Swafford. He generally treated the women close to him rather shabbily and in a cavalier manner; that's putting it kindly. And he patronized Clara Schumann by telling her she should give up playing the piano in concerts and attend more to the home.


Ok, now you are referring to the women that were close to him, not the prostitutes that he frequented. Your earlier post implied that you thought he was a misogynist by virtue of the fact that he frequented prostitutes


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## Triplets (Sep 4, 2014)

CountenanceAnglaise said:


> I'm sorry to say it all smacks horribly of misogyny. I think Brahms was definitely a misogynist!!


 Brahms was a reasonably social person, but he had problems with all of the important relationships in his life, not just women.
He was fiercely opposed to the viciously Anti Semitic Politician (Hitler's self confessed role model) Karl Luger. Upon hearing that Luger had been elected by the Anti-Semitic Viennese as Mayor, Brahms famously declared "Now I shall get myself circumcised."
Yet Swafford and others document how Brahms once viciously turned on his erstwhile friend and fellow Composer Karl Goldmark
with an Anti Semitic tirade that ruined their friendship.
Brahms relationship with Joachim may have been the most significant relationship outside that of Clara Schumann that he made his adult life, but the two were estranged for years when Joachim became irrationally jealous of his wife and then wanted to divorce her. Brahms and everyone else thought that Frau Joachim was blameless and Brahms swore a deposition to that effect. (Is this the behavior of a misogynist?) He and Joachim didn't speak for years and Brahms famously changed the Cello Concerto that he wrote to a double concerto so as to introduce a part for the Violin to effect a reapproachment.
It is true that Brahms had trouble forming lasting attachments with women. The OP's question was whether this was due to his experiences with Prostitutes while supporting the family playing Piano in a whorehouse during his teenage years. I suspect that the OP and Swafford were right about this. Studies have shown that teenagers who are 'lucky' enough to have sexual relations with older women tend to have severe issues as Adults-frequent divorces, erectile dysfunction, the gamut.
Like many men, and probably like Beethoven, Brahms seemed to either idolize women on a pedestal and simultaneously crave the earthy seductress. Perhaps the various Schumann women and the others that he had engagements with could not simultaneously fit the bill, and how many women can do that? It's an unreasonable expectation to have.
Then if you are a man, and you have a demonstrated incapacity to form a lasting relationship with a woman because of these
attitudes, and you still have carnal desires that need to be satisfied, what to do? The choices are:
1) Leave the desires unsatisfied--the Bruckner approach. It probably helps to be fervently religious and a believer in order to endure that. Brahms was a pronounced Atheist who didn't think he was going to get the big Carnal payoff in the afterlife.
2) Attack women and satisfy your desires--the Harvey Weinstein approach. If he did this then I would agree that he was a misogynist.
3) Get a steady girlfriend--this would have been the best option, but the point of this thread is that Brahms, being the prickly, non marrying sort, found this kind of tiresome. Long term relationships were just something that he wasn't good at. Does that make him a misogynist? More of a social misfit, to my mind
4) Frequent Prostitutes. Now we know that Prostitution is not a victimless crime, but that perception has only recently come about. In Brahms time, it was regarded as a business transaction between two willing participants. We have no evidence that Brahms beat these women or made them perform some bestial act. By the standards of his time, he was somewhat of a gentleman here.

None of this is admirable stuff, but Brahms, who was excessively concerned with his posthumous reputation (rumored to have destroyed more than 2/3 of his creative output because it didn't meet his self critical standards), didn't seem to be to concerned about it, or how it might taint his legacy.
Did he tell Women that they should stay barefoot in the kitchen and make babies? Probably he did. Was he alone in that opinion in his world? One wishes that he could be the legacy of Alexander Borodin, who was known to be tremendously supportive of the Women's Rights movement. I somehow suspect that if he was transplanted into 21st Century Society, his opinions would have been different.


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## Judith (Nov 11, 2015)

Triplets said:


> Brahms was a reasonably social person, but he had problems with all of the important relationships in his life, not just women.
> He was fiercely opposed to the viciously Anti Semitic Politician (Hitler's self confessed role model) Karl Luger. Upon hearing that Luger had been elected by the Anti-Semitic Viennese as Mayor, Brahms famously declared "Now I shall get myself circumcised."
> Yet Swafford and others document how Brahms once viciously turned on his erstwhile friend and fellow Composer Karl Goldmark
> with an Anti Semitic tirade that ruined their friendship.
> ...


Interesting how he performed an antisemitic tirade against Karl Goldmark and yet Joseph Joachim was jewish!


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## tdc (Jan 17, 2011)

Triplets said:


> Brahms was a reasonably social person, but he had problems with all of the important relationships in his life, not just women.
> He was fiercely opposed to the viciously Anti Semitic Politician (Hitler's self confessed role model) Karl Luger. Upon hearing that Luger had been elected by the Anti-Semitic Viennese as Mayor, Brahms famously declared "Now I shall get myself circumcised."
> Yet Swafford and others document how Brahms once viciously turned on his erstwhile friend and fellow Composer Karl Goldmark
> with an Anti Semitic tirade that ruined their friendship.
> ...


Interesting thanks! Though I have read quotes on this forum apparently by Brahms recently that seem to indicate he was not an atheist. Do you have a quote to the contrary? Where Brahms states clearly and unequivocally that he was an atheist?


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## Triplets (Sep 4, 2014)

tdc said:


> Interesting thanks! Though I have read quotes on this forum apparently by Brahms recently that seem to indicate he was not an atheist. Do you have a quote to the contrary? Where Brahms states clearly and unequivocally that he was an atheist?


I gather you haven't read the Swafford biography, with the discussion of the genesis of The German Requiem, or his quotations of Dvorak after his initial meeting with Brahms


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## Triplets (Sep 4, 2014)

Judith said:


> Interesting how he performed an antisemitic tirade against Karl Goldmark and yet Joseph Joachim was jewish!


Although I think Joachim converted to becoming a RC .


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## brianvds (May 1, 2013)

CountenanceAnglaise said:


> When you are one of the greatest cultural figures in Europe you are most certainly brought low frequenting prostitutes and not having a healthy relationship with a woman.


Not in my opinion, but I guess this board isn't the place to argue about morality.


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## tdc (Jan 17, 2011)

Triplets said:


> I gather you haven't read the Swafford biography, with the discussion of the genesis of The German Requiem, or his quotations of Dvorak after his initial meeting with Brahms


I know about the Dvorak quote, but don't think it necessarily means Brahms was an atheist. I haven't read that biography but vaguely recall reading something suggesting Brahms was not religious but could compose the Requiem despite that. But again not being religious is not the same thing as being an atheist. Brahms has been quoted referring to getting his musical ideas from god, I think first hand quotes like that are more telling than second hand (ie- Dvorak). Therefore I still haven't come across a piece of evidence that convinces me he was an atheist.


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## brianvds (May 1, 2013)

tdc said:


> I know about the Dvorak quote, but don't think it necessarily means Brahms was an atheist. I haven't read that biography but vaguely recall reading something suggesting Brahms was not religious but could compose the Requiem despite that. But again not being religious is not the same thing as being an atheist. Brahms has been quoted referring to getting his musical ideas from god, I think first hand quotes like that are more telling than second hand (ie- Dvorak). Therefore I still haven't come across a piece of evidence that convinces me he was an atheist.


As I understand it, Brahms was rather skeptical about the notion of supernatural entities, but he was no enemy of religion either and valued Christian morals etc.

What does emerge from this thread is that he was in any event a bundle of contradictions, but then, so is everyone else. None of us are nearly as consistent in our beliefs and attitudes as we may think.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Also, people say and believe different things at different times of their lives, sometimes on different days of the week!


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## brianvds (May 1, 2013)

KenOC said:


> Also, people say and believe different things at different times of their lives, sometimes on different days of the week!


Yup. It takes Brahms a whole lifetime to live his life; it takes us just a week or two to read his biography. To him, contradicting at sixty the stuff he believed when he was twenty doesn't seem like a big deal, but for the reader he changed his mind in less than two weeks.

In any event, as I noted in a previous post, nobody is really ever quite internally consistent. The human mind consists of different modules, that work together but are also sometimes at odds.


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## Judith (Nov 11, 2015)

Triplets said:


> Although I think Joachim converted to becoming a RC .


A lot of people did because of antisemitism. E.g Mendelssohn!


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

brianvds said:


> Not in my opinion, but I guess this board isn't the place to argue about morality.


Sure it is! Sometimes frequenting prostitutes is the right choice. Like, for instance, if one is a reality TV celebrity or a movie mogul with more money than God and the choice is between assaulting women and paying for it! Arguably, Brahms was saving respectable women from bad relationships with his misogynistic self while making a number of prostitutes happy and prosperous. Everyone wins. That is a moral choice.


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## Brahmsianhorn (Feb 17, 2017)

Triplets said:


> Brahms was a reasonably social person, but he had problems with all of the important relationships in his life, not just women.
> He was fiercely opposed to the viciously Anti Semitic Politician (Hitler's self confessed role model) Karl Luger. Upon hearing that Luger had been elected by the Anti-Semitic Viennese as Mayor, Brahms famously declared "Now I shall get myself circumcised."
> Yet Swafford and others document how Brahms once viciously turned on his erstwhile friend and fellow Composer Karl Goldmark
> with an Anti Semitic tirade that ruined their friendship.
> ...


My opinion is that both Beethoven and Brahms desired long-term, happy love lives but were not suited for them. Thus they suffered their whole lives wanting what they could not have, as opposed to more "available" men. As you state, all men still have physical cravings, and for these men the only way to satisfy them was through prostitution. They were provided temporary relief of their longings but without the added responsibility that long-term love requires.


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## MarkW (Feb 16, 2015)

This speculation, lacking any way to substantiate, borders on the prurient and serves little purpose. Putting aside whatever Brahms' wants/needs were, we have no evidence that Clara acted other than the proper respectable widow -- whatever we may think of the value of that characterization.


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## brianvds (May 1, 2013)

Brahmsianhorn said:


> My opinion is that both Beethoven and Brahms desired long-term, happy love lives but were not suited for them. Thus they suffered their whole lives wanting what they could not have, as opposed to more "available" men. As you state, all men still have physical cravings, and for these men the only way to satisfy them was through prostitution. They were provided temporary relief of their longings but without the added responsibility that long-term love requires.


I get the impression prostitution was more socially accepted at the time anyway. Nowadays, if a celebrity composer got caught with prostitutes it would make for quite a scandal; at that time no one seems to have cared much.


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## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

brianvds said:


> I get the impression prostitution was more socially accepted at the time anyway. Nowadays, if a celebrity composer got caught with prostitutes it would make for quite a scandal; at that time no one seems to have cared much.


And back in Brahms's day there was presumably not much scope for being exposed either - no tabloid journalism as such, no being hounded by paparazzi and certainly no f*****g Facebook!


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## Triplets (Sep 4, 2014)

Judith said:


> A lot of people did because of antisemitism. E.g Mendelssohn!


Actually, Mendelssohn's father, a Banker, was the one that converted. His Grandfather, Moses Mendelssohn, was a seminal figure in Reform Judaism. Felix was raised as a Lutheran, wrote a great deal of music for use in the Lutheran Church, and of course the Reformation Symphony. 
A better example to make your point might have been Mahler


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## brianvds (May 1, 2013)

elgars ghost said:


> And back in Brahms's day there was presumably not much scope for being exposed either - no tabloid journalism as such, no being hounded by paparazzi and certainly no f*****g Facebook!


I feel sorry indeed for any tabloid journalist who dares to harass Brahms. Boy, would they get an ear full. 



Triplets said:


> Actually, Mendelssohn's father, a Banker, was the one that converted. His Grandfather, Moses Mendelssohn, was a seminal figure in Reform Judaism. Felix was raised as a Lutheran, wrote a great deal of music for use in the Lutheran Church, and of course the Reformation Symphony.
> A better example to make your point might have been Mahler


And Mahler was, religiously speaking, something of a don't-give-a-damnist, perhaps with pantheist leanings. At least in his day "converting" was still an option. We all know what happened eventually: you could no longer say "oops, I'm sorry, I'll believe the right things from now on."


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