# I need help from those familiar with Alban Berg



## Dimitri (Jun 27, 2013)

Hi everyone,

Recently I was arguing with a classical music fan--my premise was that everyone steals music. I challenged my friend to give me a composer she respected. She gave me Alban Berg. And I told her I would try to find instances of Berg stealing/quoting/drawing inspiration from/plagiarizing (whatever you want to call it) from other composers.

Can anybody help me out? 

Thanks in advance!


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

Berg quoted Bach's chorale "Es ist genung" in the second movement of his violin concerto.


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## aleazk (Sep 30, 2011)

Well, of course all composers are inspired by other composers. That's why we call classical music a "tradition". And, indeed, this can include the more or less explicit use of some elements found in those other composers. But I wouldn't be as radical as to call that stealing/plagiarizing. It's a very common thing in the arts, and even a necessity for the whole thing to keep moving!.
Berg was a member of the Second Viennese School and used Schoenberg's twelve tone technique (that already can count as some of the influences you are looking for). He also was inspired by Mahler. And that Romantic influence is immediatly recognizable, just listen to some Berg (like this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CvYClyyPGUk; I can almost smell Mahler in those strings!) and then some Webern (like this 



) and you will notice the difference.


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## Dimitri (Jun 27, 2013)

Thank you ComposerOfAvantGarde! That is exactly the type of thing I was looking for. @ aleazk: I agree that we shouldn't be so quick to wag our fingers at so-called "thieves"--I'm looking for an example to prove this very point to the person I was talking to


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## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

Alban Berg was so clever that had he wished he could have quoted anything by anyone but encrypt it so much that hardly anyone would notice.


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## joen_cph (Jan 17, 2010)

The last movement of the "Lyric Suite" has the Tristan Chord and quotes Zemlinsky´s "Lyrische Sinfonie" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lyric_Suite_(Berg) , http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tristan-Akkord)

Berg also arranged Strauss´ "Wein, Weib und Gesang" orchestral waltz for chamber ensemble.


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## Beethoven10 (Jun 2, 2013)

The Violin Concerto also includes a Carinthian folk-song style melody reminiscent of Mahler's use of Laendler etc.


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

"Stealing" has been a popular and traditional way of expressing what you speak of.

Currently, with more and more people aware of issues of plagiarism and copyright violations, _it is apt to be interpreted as plagiarism, which is taking the work of someone else and passing it off as one's own._

I would go out of your way to make it clear that classical composers take themes, tunes, even a famous chord progression, from other composers, but they work it enough that it goes far beyond either a wholesale copy inserted into a piece, or a mere arrangement. And that, I think is the most important thing to know when a composer uses a folk song, another composers theme, etc. It is a time honored tradition, as sets of variations "on a theme of" another composer.

The fact nothing is secretive or hidden about what the classical composers do, and how they do it, also helps to understand what is going on in that genre. I.e. they take it, use it, _but make it their own by doing enough that it is not merely a copy._

The Bach Chorale "es ist genung" and that Carpathian folk tune are fully integrated in the violin concerto, counterpointed with masses of Berg's own original material, and also varied. That is not wholesale stealing as much as it is "nice chorale, think I can work with that."

Another word could be hommage, a gesture of admiration and respect.


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## Dimitri (Jun 27, 2013)

^Well said!

Thanks everybody for the contributions!


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