# What's great about Das Lied von der Erde?



## hiroica (Aug 31, 2015)

I love most of Mahler's symphonies, but have had a slightly more difficult time in cracking the geode of Das Lied. Just got tickets to see Dudamel and the LA Phil perform this as I'm hoping that see it live will reveal it to me a bit more. I know many Mahler fans swear by Das Lied so was just wondering what your guys thoughts are on what makes this piece so great.


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## MarkW (Feb 16, 2015)

That's a fairly impossible question to answer in words. it will either come to you sooner or later or it won't. Just go with an open mind and see what its effect on you is moment by moment. (I don't know what kind of Mahler conductor Dudamel is -- but Das Lied is pretty conductor proof.)


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## hiroica (Aug 31, 2015)

Fair enough. Most of my favorite music didn't hit me straight away and it took me time to appreciate it. Hoping that will happen with this one!


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## Larkenfield (Jun 5, 2017)

... perhaps because Mahler felt particularly deeply about recent events that were part of the background of _Das Lied_:

'Three disasters befell Mahler during the summer of 1907. Political maneuvering and antisemitism forced him to resign as Director of the Vienna Court Opera, his eldest daughter Maria died from scarlet fever and diphtheria, and Mahler himself was diagnosed with a congenital heart defect. "With one stroke," he wrote to his friend Bruno Walter, "I have lost everything I have gained in terms of who I thought I was, and have to learn my first steps again like a newborn".'


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

What _isn't_ great about it?

For me it has all of Mahler's best qualities and none of his worst. It's melodically inspired, orchestrally gorgeous, and deeply personal yet objective and fine-grained (perhaps constrained by the needs of the texts), without the busyness, prolixity and strained hyperexpressivity that in the symphonies can make you feel like a voyeur at a primal therapy session. At the end we're moved but not bludgeoned, devastated, or exhausted.


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## Oldhoosierdude (May 29, 2016)

I'm not that crazy about it either.


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## Biffo (Mar 7, 2016)

MarkW said:


> That's a fairly impossible question to answer in words. it will either come to you sooner or later or it won't. Just go with an open mind and see what its effect on you is moment by moment. (I don't know what kind of Mahler conductor Dudamel is -- but Das Lied is pretty conductor proof.)


I agree with MarkW except the bit about it being conductor proof. DLE was the first Mahler work I bought a recording of (Klemperer/Philharmonia/Wunderlich/Ludwig) and it gripped me immediately. That was in 1969 and I have never stopped loving it.


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

My personal favourite piece of music, period. Why? I can't explain. But if you don't love it, so be it. I think all of us have pieces that many people are crazy about, and that for us is just meh.


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## MarkW (Feb 16, 2015)

Biffo said:


> I agree with MarkW except the bit about it being conductor proof. DLE was the first Mahler work I bought a recording of (Klemperer/Philharmonia/Wunderlich/Ludwig) and it gripped me immediately. That was in 1969 and I have never stopped loving it.


Ditto about the Klemperer etc. recording. But it was 1970!


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## MarkW (Feb 16, 2015)

BTW: I downloaded the little oboe figuration that begins the last movement, and use it as a text alert on my phone. (Causing one friend to remark: "What kind of texts do you receive? It would be like Death coming to the door in "The Seventh Seal!")


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## larold (Jul 20, 2017)

<<What's great about Das Lied von der Erde? >>

I've asked myself that question since about 1985. I haven't found the answer yet.


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## vesteel (Feb 3, 2018)

Same with the 7th


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## jdec (Mar 23, 2013)

<<What's great about Das Lied von der Erde? >>

The songs, the music.


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## Sonata (Aug 7, 2010)

hiroica said:


> Fair enough. Most of my favorite music didn't hit me straight away and it took me time to appreciate it. Hoping that will happen with this one!


And if it doesn't that's ok too. Wagner's work has always been difficult for me. The Ring finally clicked and I'm thrilled it did. Tristan unde Isolde...well you I could have written your post about that one. And that's ok. Just because we all love classical music doesn't mean we all have to love the same pieces.


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## Radames (Feb 27, 2013)

I can't put it into words. All I can say is that it's gorgeous music. I heard Nezet-Seguin conduct it and he kept us from applauding at the end for 2 minutes.


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## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

Way back when, Jascha Horenstein did an interview that was attached to his recording of the 6th symphony. In the interview he said that the worst thing about dying would never to be able to hear Das Lied again. Well, at that time I didn't know the work and immediately went out and bought the Klemperer recording. I couldn't hear what was so great about it either - but I was too young and wasn't ready for it. Several years later I was driving at night from LA to Phoenix and a classical station was playing Das Lied - and then it connected; this was the most beautiful thing I'd ever heard. The closing pages are heartbreaking. It just took time, some life experience, and even digesting a lot of other music. Since then I've understood Horenstein's point totally, and it's one of my favorite works in the repertoire. Some of Mahler's music I will travel great distances to hear live: symphonies 2, 3, 6, 7 and Das Lied. It's also the focus of MahlerFest in Boulder this year, if anyone's going.


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## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

I think the texts which Mahler selected play a big part in making the work what it is - the ancient Chinese poems go through a whole gamut of emotions and Mahler rises to the challenge with the music complementing them perfectly, even down to the delicate 'Vienna meets the Orient' of the _Von der Jugend_ movement.


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

elgars ghost said:


> I think the texts which Mahler selected play a big part in making the work what it is - the ancient Chinese poems go through a whole gamut of emotions and Mahler rises to the challenge with the music complementing them perfectly, even down to the delicate 'Vienna meets the Orient' of the _Von der Jugend_ movement.


Agreed - the texts are really exquisite, very expressive, and Mahler's setting of these poems is superb beyond description...Mahler's amazing skills as an orchestrator are readily apparent....so much of this score is really in chamber music setting - with crystal clear textures, and wonderful combinations of sound.....this is very heavy duty stuff....I don't "casually listen" to DLvDE - this is music in which to let yourself be completely absorbed....Walter/NYPO/'60 and Reiner/CSO do it for me - great soloists and stellar orchestral work...


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## Boston Charlie (Dec 6, 2017)

Mahler's "Das Lied Von Der Erde" is one of my favorite pieces of music, certainly my favorite Mahler symphony, if you choose to even count it as a symphony. 

Mahler was a seeker, a Jew turned Christian, devout in neither; but always seeking the answer to life. As Leonard Bernstein points out, much of Mahler's music is a struggle to find reconciliation between his Jewish self and Christian self. As Mahler turns to Chinese philosophy in "Das Lied Von Der Erde" we see a Mahler who is somewhat broken but also at some sense of peace without the long drawn out ramblings that characterize the other symphonies here and there. I think that it's a peace that comes with age; that "Das Lied Von Der Erde" could not have been composed by a person who wasn't old enough to understand the mind-set that comes with middle age. 

Maybe I tend to read too much into these things, but I see a little of my own life experiences in Mahler's music. When I was younger I took immediately to the 1st, 2nd, 3rd and 4th symphonies, 5-9 not as much, and "Das Lied Von Der Erde" completely mystified me. Now at age 50, "Das Lied Von Der Erde" comes to fore as the symphony where Mahler's musical vision speaks to me the most.

While Wunderlich/Ludwig/Klemperer is considered to be the best recording of "Das Lied Von Der Erde" by the general consensus of fans and critics; I always liked Rene Kollo and Christa Ludwig with Leonard Bernstein and the Israel Philharmonic as a very heart felt version. The recording that Kollo and Ludwig made a couple of years later with Herbert Von Karajan and the Berlin Philharmonic is also a very fine version. If Karajan is not as emotionally simpatico with Mahler as is Bernstein, then he makes up for it by getting beautiful sounds from his Berlin musicians. 

The alternate Version of "Das Lied Von Der Erde" that features two male vocalists, tenor and baritone, is best exemplified by Fritz Wunderlich, Dietrich Fischer-Diskau with Josef Krips and the Vienna Symphony Orchestra.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Boston Charlie said:


> Mahler's "Das Lied Von Der Erde" is one of my favorite pieces of music, certainly my favorite Mahler symphony, if you choose to even count it as a symphony.


Mahler, at least, considered it a symphony, subtitling it: _Eine Symphonie für eine Tenor- und eine Alt- (oder Bariton-) Stimme und Orchester_.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

KenOC said:


> Mahler, at least, considered it a symphony, subtitling it: _Eine Symphonie für eine Tenor- und eine Alt- (oder Bariton-) Stimme und Orchester_.


Wasn't that the one he purposefully did not call a symphony as it would be his ninth and his death knell (as other composers died after their ninths)? Then when he wrote his 9th he said, this is not really my 9th, so thereby he cheated death--or so he thought.


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

KenOC said:


> Mahler, at least, considered it a symphony, subtitling it: _Eine Symphonie für eine Tenor- und eine Alt- (oder Bariton-) Stimme und Orchester_.


Mahler was trying to slip past the "#9 curse"...


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Heck148 said:


> Mahler was trying to slip past the "#9 curse"...


It's always seemed to me that Mahler figured Death was pretty stupid. He should have watched _The Seventh Seal_...


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## tdc (Jan 17, 2011)

Others have done a good job describing the work's strengths, I'll just add it is my favorite Mahler work and I would place it in the top ten greatest works of the 20th century.

(The movie _The Seventh Seal_ also makes my personal top ten greatest films list.)


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## jimsumner (Jul 7, 2013)

Woodduck said:


> What _isn't_ great about it?
> 
> For me it has all of Mahler's best qualities and none of his worst. It's melodically inspired, orchestrally gorgeous, and deeply personal yet objective and fine-grained (perhaps constrained by the needs of the texts), without the busyness, prolixity and strained hyperexpressivity that in the symphonies can make you feel like a voyeur at a primal therapy session. At the end we're moved but not bludgeoned, devastated, or exhausted.


I find the final movement (Der Abschied) to be some of the most emotionally gut-wrenching music ever written. I always find myself devastated at its conclusion.

But certainly not bludgeoned. A subtler art, perhaps, but just as exhausting. For me.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

Never seen the 7th seal, but ever notice (how could you not) how as a person passes through life they are slowly turning into a cadaver. Heavy drug and alcohol use can speed the process but we all are heading for cadaverdom.


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## Larkenfield (Jun 5, 2017)

"What's great about Das Lied von der Erde?"

It's Mahler's attempt to cheat Fate. 










It didn't work.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

OP: It's got everything! Earthiness. Sensuality. Sadness. Ecstasy. Inevitibility.

For me, Mahler's greatest composition.


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

jimsumner said:


> I find the final movement (Der Abschied) to be some of the most emotionally gut-wrenching music ever written. I always find myself devastated at its conclusion.
> But certainly not bludgeoned. A subtler art, perhaps, but just as exhausting. For me.


Yes, it is indeed gut-wrenching...it is an entire "tone poem", or musical experience in itself, separate from the other movements.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

> The alternate Version of "Das Lied Von Der Erde" that features two male vocalists, tenor and baritone, is best exemplified by Fritz Wunderlich, Dietrich Fischer-Diskau with Josef Krips and the Vienna Symphony Orchestra.


The newest one, Jonas Kaufmann singing all the parts.


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## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

Anyone here like the piano reduction? I think it's a good listen. I especially like the opening movement whereas in the standard version it can sound somewhat shrill. Perhaps some find that the piano and voice combination isn't weighty enough to sustain itself, especially for the duration of the final movement.


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## manyene (Feb 7, 2015)

The last movement: Mahler's wayfarer heading off for the mountains to seek peace, ad saying farewell. I think he speaks for many of us older listeners.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Mahler - Der Abschied, Christa Ludwig (1966)
OP, take 28 minutes and you know why.


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## manyene (Feb 7, 2015)

It last nearly half an hour, but that is always the quickest half hour that passes by when you concentrate on it.


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## manyene (Feb 7, 2015)

Another thought - it probably comes closest to Mahler's attempt to realise the whole world in his music. It begins with a nightmare and ends in a peaceful dream.


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## JeffD (May 8, 2017)

Woodduck said:


> without the busyness, prolixity and strained hyperexpressivity that in the symphonies can make you feel like a voyeur at a primal therapy session. At the end we're moved but not bludgeoned, devastated, or exhausted.


Genius allusions there. Wow. Accurate to my experience of Mahler first hearings.


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## Star (May 27, 2017)

Pugg said:


> The newest one, Jonas Kaufmann singing all the parts.


A totally ridiculous concept. Mahler's intention was for contrasting voices.


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## Star (May 27, 2017)

the sheer Jewishness of the music strikes list of chords in my soul, particularly the last movement. The best version is the Klemperer with Wunderlich and Ludwig, though Janet Baker us certainly worth a listen. And then there is Ferrier for a different experience


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## joen_cph (Jan 17, 2010)

hiroica said:


> I love most of Mahler's symphonies, but have had a slightly more difficult time in cracking the geode of Das Lied. Just got tickets to see Dudamel and the LA Phil perform this as I'm hoping that see it live will reveal it to me a bit more. I know many Mahler fans swear by Das Lied so was just wondering what your guys thoughts are on what makes this piece so great.


Maybe you just haven´t found the recording that makes it click for you. Taste in recordings of vocal music differ a lot, and it is such a rich work with that many orchestral details and sonorities, the result can appear quite varied. I´d try to focus on the last movement for start and find a soloist whose singing I like.

Some famous ones have been mentioned. Klemperer´s should appeal to almost all people; I personally prefer Bernstein with Kollo & Ludwig; it´s the Israel Philharmonic, whose playing I am normally not a fan of, but they are doing it well here.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Star said:


> A totally ridiculous concept. Mahler's intention was for contrasting voices.


Don't shoot me, I am just the messenger, but...did you hear it?


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

What's so great about "Das Lied von der Erde"?? 
Well, I can relate a personal experience that explains it for me - my beloved wife died in 2011, after a long battle with cancer….after grieving for a time, I decided, with some trepidation, that I would give DLvdE a listen…I mean, *really listen*, no distractions, no reading, no other tasking, just let the music absorb me and lead me where it will.

It was an amazing experience, esp the "Farewell/Abschied" mvt VI [Forester/Reiner]…difficult to describe, words really come up short - "bittersweet" gives a hint at it, but is much too shallow….it was simultaneously - uplifting, and crushing; most certainly "gut-wrenching". As I said, words are not adequate. I've probably experienced that sort of emotional intensity from music 3, maybe 4 other times in my life…for me, that's what "great music" can do.


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## manyene (Feb 7, 2015)

I'm sure it is just a coincidence that I find interesting that we've had fairly extensive discussions of two masterpieces, the final movement of the Das Lied here, and the Rachmaninov's Symphonic Dances on another thread. Both have much to say about the human condition, and never failed to move those familiar with them every time they are played.


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## wkasimer (Jun 5, 2017)

Pugg said:


> Don't shoot me, I am just the messenger, but...did you hear it?


I did - I thought that it was pretty poor. He has a baritonal sound, that makes him unsuited to the tenor songs, but his lower range is limited, which makes him unsuited to the baritone ones.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

It may have escaped the attention of some that there are two very clear allusions to the music of Wagner's swan song, _Parsifal,_ in _Das Lied._ The first is in "The Drunkard in Spring", where the melodic phrase set to the words "Der Lenz ist da" ("spring is here") is identical to one sung by Gurnemanz in Act 3 to the words "und Lenz ist da." The other reference is in the desolate orchestral interlude in the last movement of Das Lied, "Der Abschied," where we can recognize the repeated, agonized motif from Parsifal's Act 3 interlude. This occurs in the Mahler at around 50:00 in this performance: 



 The referenced passage in Wagner is at 3:46:30 here: 




That these correspondences are not coincidental is attested to by Mahler's own score of _Parsifal_, where he has marked in ink the phrase "und Lenz ist da." Mahler had attended a performance of the opera at Bayreuth in 1883, when he was 23, and afterward he wrote to a friend, "I can hardly describe my present state to you. When I came out of the Festspielhaus, completely spellbound, I understood that the greatest and most painful revelation had just been made to me, and that I would carry it unspoiled for the rest of my life."

It seems he did just that.


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

manyene said:


> I'm sure it is just a coincidence that I find interesting that we've had fairly extensive discussions of two masterpieces, the final movement of the Das Lied here, and the Rachmaninov's Symphonic Dances on another thread.


Sorry to disrupt your equation, but I don't consider anyrhing by Rachm'ff to be remotely on the same exalted level as Mahler's greatest works. That said, I very much hope that this thread stays on the OP topic....DLvdE...thanx.


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## Triplets (Sep 4, 2014)

MarkW said:


> That's a fairly impossible question to answer in words. )


In response to the OP, my choice of words would be "All of it"


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## JeffD (May 8, 2017)




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## manyene (Feb 7, 2015)

Heck148 said:


> Sorry to disrupt your equation, but I don't consider anyrhing by Rachm'ff to be remotely on the same exalted level as Mahler's greatest works. That said, I very much hope that this thread stays on the OP topic....DLvdE...thanx.


I think you need to listen to the last movement of the Symphonic Dances again.


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

manyene said:


> I think you need to listen to the last movement of the Symphonic Dances again.


No thanx...been there, heard that...Rach'y really doesn't do it for me...either performing, or listening....PagVars is ok, his best piece, IMO.
I don't want to trigger a huge discussion on this - but Mahler's late works feature some of the most sublime, inspired orchestration in the entire repertoire...along with his brilliant inspiration as a composer, Mahler was indeed a great master of the art of orchestration...Rachm'ff was not....let's let it go at that....


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