# Krysztof Penderecki



## Sid James

Born in 1933, Penderecki is one of the most significant Polish composers of his generation.

He graduated from music studies at Krakow University in 1958, and took up a teaching post at the Academy of Music there.

His early work shows influences of serialism, Boulez and Stravinsky. Notable examples of works from this period are _*Threnody to the Victims of Hiroshima *_and the *St. Luke Passion*.

In the mid-1970s, when he was working at the Yale School of Music, Penderecki's style began to change. It became more tonal and romantic sounding. Some saw this change of heart as rather opportunistic, but Penderecki said that avant-garde experimentation had led him to a dead end, it was not satisfying as simply an end in itself, so he returned to more traditional forms of expression.

A good example of this is the _*Polish Requiem *_(1980-84), part of which, the _Lacrimosa_, was commissioned in 1980 by the Solidarity Movement. Other examples are his _*Violin and Cello Concertos*_.

His music has also been used in a number of international films since the 1970s.

Today, Penderecki's reputation is secure. He is well-recognised both at home and abroad, with many awards to his credit.

I am only familiar with 3 of his works (on a Naxos CD): *Psalms of David *(1958), _*Dies Irae *_(1967) & _*Symphony No. 8 'Songs of Transcience'*_(2004-5, rev. 2008). The first two are more modernistic, stark and edgy. _Dies Irae _was written for the opening of Auschwitz as a museum & memorial to the Holocaust, so it is suitably dark. The forces required for the _Symphony No. 8_ is similar to some of Mahler's song cycles, and it's text if from German poets, but the orchestration sounds more textured & modern.

I wouldn't say he's my favourite contemporary composer, but his work is interesting to listen to, particularly comparing works from the earlier, avant-garde period, with the current tonal/romantic phase.


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## Lisztfreak

I have a CD of his music, the Cello Concerto No.2, Partita and Stabat Mater are on it. I kind of like the Cello Concerto, although it is too avant-garde for me. Stabat Mater is also not so hard to endure. However, I simply cannot stomach the Partita. Sorry.

Two years ago Penderecki visited Zagreb (the capital of Croatia, very near my town) during the Zagreb Musical Biennale, so I went to his concert. He conducted his 'Adagio' Symphony and the Concerto Grosso for Three Cellos and Orchestra. It was a very interesting experience. An opportunity to enjoy sheer sounds and sound-blocks. And now I will also be able to say I've seen Penderecki live! In some 50 years, perhaps it will be an interesting anecdote for those who will have heard about him.

Otherwise, he's to unpleasant to the ears for my taste.


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## ecg_fa

Penderecki is one of my favorite contemporary composers. He has very distinct 
style periods-- his earlier stuff is generally much more 'atonalistic' and related to serialism.
More recently his work is much more tonic and melodic, if very distinctive still-- his early operas like Paradise Lost or Devils of Loudon are very interesting too. I like the cello concerto mentioned, also the Thremody, as well as the Symphonies numbers 2, 3 & 7 (that's called '7 Gates of Jerusalem') & others I'm forgetting. Some interesting recordings by Antoni Wit & others. KP is also a very fine conductor-- I've heard him on two occasions conduct 
here on the West Coast USA.

Ed


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## Lisztfreak

His Threnody, although extremely brutal to the ears, is still brilliant - how could a piece expressing the horror of unthinkable nuclear destruction be nice-sounding? So, even though I prefer nice sounds, I find this piece a masterpiece. That's why Expressionism, too, is true art - you cannot 'talk' about ugly things in a pretty manner.


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## Tapkaara

St. Luke Passion is a very grating work. It contains some of the most jarring sounds in classical music. It's also not half bad.

As many in this forum should know by now, I'm not big on the avant-garde in music. But this work I can stomach, somehow, and it really does give you goosebumps in parts.

The Threnody I am less enthusiastic about, and, in my very humble estimation, is over-rated.

My favorite f the Polish "avant-garde" is Wojciech Kilar, by the way.


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## JTech82

I'm not particular fond his work at all. I think he's just another composer who got caught up with what everybody else was composing and not looking deep inside of his own soul. He may have turned to more tonal works, but he composed way too many sour apples.


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## JoeGreen

Listening to Penderecki's Threnody to the Victims of Hiroshima in a darkened room always sends chills down my spine.


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## Weston

Penderecki is one the very few contemporary avant garde composers I find interesting, another being Ligeti. Is it a coincidnece that both have been used in soundtrakcs of films by Stanley Kubrick. Is this why I like them - the exposure?

I don't think so. I have been exposed to others, Xenakis, Varese, Wuorinen, and I have not really grasped them.

Pendercki's music does connect to me somehow - though it often scares the bejahoobathizzle out of me.


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## Sid James

Well I thought I'd bump up this thread, since we haven't discussed Penderecki for a long time here now.

I have recently bought a Naxos cd of his chamber music, most of it composed in the 1990's. I think this music has that night-time feeling to it, Penderecki seems to render dark moods pretty well. The highlights of the disc are the _Sextet _(2000) for clarinet, horn, violin, viola, cello & piano and the _Clarinet Quartet _(1990's). The former has some of Shostakovich's biting sarcasm & Schnittke's moodiness, while the latter especially explores similar moods found in Bartok's own night musics. This might not be the most progressive chamber music being written nowadays, but it's very engaging nonetheless...


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## Fsharpmajor

Andre said:


> I am only familiar with 3 of his works (on a Naxos CD): *Psalms of David *(1958), _*Dies Irae *_(1967) & _*Symphony No. 8 'Songs of Transcience'*_(2004-5, rev. 2008).


I recently bought that CD but haven't listened to it yet. I'll post again when I've heard it.

I have the Naxos one with the _Threnody_, a symphony that I don't care for, and _Fluorescences_, which I do like.

The _Threnody_, whatever else one might say about it, gets high marks for doing what it says on the label.


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## Sid James

Fsharpmajor said:


> I recently bought that CD but haven't listened to it yet. I'll post again when I've heard it...


I'd be interested in your opinion of that disc. It has a good selection of his choral works, contrasting the recent, more conservative _Symphony No. 8_ with the earlier avant-garde works. I think it's quite a good cd, but it took me a while to warm to it, as is my general tendency with Penderecki for some reason...


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## Sid James

I've just bought a 2 disc set on EMI of some of Penderecki's earlier avant-garde efforts, eg. _Anaklasis, Threnody, Cello Concerto, Partita, Symphony No. 1_. These are probably some of the best examples of texture music. He knew how to render orchestral colour in interesting ways, for example, in his innovative use of percussion (one of the works has the piano strings stroked by jazz brushes). This is pretty intense music, but there is a great deal of beauty amongst the forcefullness. A great place to start is the colourful _Symphony No. 1_, which begins with the sounds of a whip.

Listening to these works, I can understand why Penderecki departed in the '70's from composing music like this. He had explored texture & colour fully, pushing instruments to the limit. So it's understandable why he turned to a more Romantic idiom since that time. Penderecki is a multi-faceted composer, who I think composed some very interesting music. It's interesting to contrast his earlier music with what he has composed since. Obviously, there are many differences between these two approaches, but there are also commonalities - eg. Penderecki still likes to render the darker moods, although he is now writing in a more accessible, tonal style...


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## StlukesguildOhio

Music, for me, is such a sensory/sensual experience that it can be difficult to listen to the more jarring forms. I have mixed feelings about Penderecki. I find that the work can be quite powerful... harrowing at times... and I appreciate it more than the formal experimentation of Schoenberg or John Cage... but it also hits me a bit like the film _Schindler's List_... which I will admit is magnificent... but not something I wish to experience often.


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## kg4fxg

*Andre*

Thanks for the post, I have no Penderecki in my collection

Tears and sorrow expressed as I miss another wonderful composer. How could I be so irresponsible not to purchase some of his compositions? I am a fool, and my ignore has over shadowed me. Repentance is the best option as I look through my vast library of books to learn more....

Oh, Krysztof - please forgive me.


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## Aramis

I've just noticed that you write "Krysztof". I guess it's mistake. The correct form is Kr*z*ysztof, trust me, I wear this name myself.


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## Sid James

*Kg4fxg*, it's never too late to get into the music of a composer unfamiliar to you like Penderecki. If you want to buy something that's inexpensive, but still of a good quality, I'd recommend some of the many cd's Naxos have put out, covering a whide range of Penderecki's output, from his earlier to later works, in all genres (choral, orchestral, chamber).

*Aramis*, the mispelling was my mistake, I didn't spell his name correctly in the title of this thread. Glad that you have corrected it, but there is nothing I can do about it now. But anyway, I'm just beginning to appreciate the excellent composers Poland has produced, particularly in the C20th. Szymanowski, Lutoslawski, Gorecki & Penderecki...


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## emiellucifuge

I may not be a fan of pieces such as the Threnody but some things like his 3rd symphony are amazingly original and even catchy which is quite a trait for a contemporary composer.

I was walking through an art gallery next to the central park in Bergen, Norway and imagine my surprise when I saw a huge canvas of those too-familiar black and white photos of Penderecki and Cage.


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## Sid James

I like his texture music, like the _Threnody, Cello Concerto No. 1, Symphony No. 1, Partita_, etc. But one has to take it in small doses, it's really too intense to listen to a whole cd of that in one sitting. Most of his music which I've heard is pretty dark (even anguished at times). I've only heard his 1st & 8th symphonies so far, I like them quite a bit, so I plan to acquire some more of these in the future, as well as his _Violin Concertos_.


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## Aramis

Today, his new work called "Preludium for a Peace" had it's premiere. It was written for today's 70th anniversary of WWII break out. Anyone heard it?


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## Jeremy Marchant

Personally I find Penderecki's sell out to traditional romantic writing very disappointing. The _Dies irae_, _Threnody_, _St Luke Passion_, _Polymorphia _and the other early works are fresh, innovative, new, ground-breaking etc. And, yes, these are desirable attributes in a composer, in my book.

It is interesting he couldn't sustain this level of creativity and vision and sank back. Not an argument for the conservatives in favour of derivative, backward looking writing, however. Roberto Gerhard went in precisely the opposite direction. Compare his ballet _Don Quixote_ with the, late, fourth symphony. The latter is like early Penderecki without the angst.


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## Sid James

I agree that his earlier works were groundbreaking and probably more interesting than the more recent post-romantic ones. He seemed to have 'texture music' pinned down, which we now tend to associate with the 1960's & specifically Penderecki. At the same time, it's hard to imagine him going on in this style, maybe because of the popularity of other composers like Gorecki & Part, who were more tonal. In any case, in the 1980's everything old was new again, maybe it's the decade we want to forget, but things had come full circle in a way, retro was in again. So maybe these trends were part of the reason Penderecki changed his style so radically, did a 180 degree about turn & embraced romanticism...


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## jurianbai

Picked from discount segment, I hope it is good. Anna Sophie Mutter - Penderecki Violin Concerto no.2 + Bartok Sonata no.2


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## StlukesguildOhio

I don't buy the Romantic/Modernist notion that anything less than continual novelty amounts to an artistic "selling out"... as if novelty were the sole measure of art. From what I gleaned from the recordings (and liner notes) of Penderecki that I have... including his earlier works, Penderecki has been accused of being a reactionary and "turning his back on musical progress" (music has a "progress"? And is this in one proper and acknowledged direction only?) since 1962 and the appearance of his _Stabat Mater_. What critics of Penderecki have ignored is the fact that working within the conformist environment of Post-Stalinist Poland, any overt expression of religion... especially that of a devout Catholic... was a huge challenge to the atheistic state... quite daring... and brave on his part.

Personally I find the conservative/progressive argument to be nonsense and truly a non-issue. It amounts to little more than a suggestion of "What I like is inherently superior to that ridiculous Modernist noise or that boring conservative schmaltz that I don't like... and nothing outside of my preferred side of the conservative/progressive divide has any real merit." By all measures J.S. Bach was dismissed as an outdated conservative late in his career... yet he seems to have held up for some untold reason. Rather than challenge the accepted forms of the time, most of Bach's work takes existing forms to an unprecedented level of complexity and expressiveness... and the result resonates with me and many others far more than the more "progressive" music of the time that was leading the way toward "Classicism" and away from the Baroque.

At a time in which John Cage, Xenakis, Ligeti, and Philip Glass are already "ancient history" I reject the notion that the only possible direction for music of any value is to progress even beyond this... to an absolute cacophony that rejects any hint of what went before. I suggested that the conservative/progressive dichotomy is a non-issue because I find that there is much of great value on either side of the divide... and a great many composers... including Penderecki... freely move back and forth from elements that are more Modernist and jarring to elements that are more "conservative" or rooted in older traditions... and ultimately it is a question of how good the music is. Musicians are free to build upon the whole history of music... Romantic, Classical, Baroque, Medieval, Modernist... and not just the music of the immediate past. If anything is conservative it is the idea that art/music may only be achieved by building upon the immediate past... that art/music is like the fashion industry... forever seeking out the next novelty... the artist's reputation wholly dependent upon his or her ability to surprise or shock an audience increasingly numbed by shocks and surprises.

Returning to Penderecki, of what I have heard of his work, I am especially struck by his choral work, _Utrenja_ (1971) which is seen as forming something of a triptych with the _St. Luke Passion_ and _Polish Requiem_. The work is based upon the Orthodox liturgy of Holy Saturday including the lamentation of Christ's death and the Entombment through the Resurrection. The first part is quite harrowing at times. Choral passages seem disemboweled... devolving into swarms of shouted gestures reaching its apex in the harrowing sound of the sopranos. Part two... focused upon the Resurrection... suggests the textures of Messiaen at times, and in other instances builds upon the traditional Orthodox chant... simple... deep... and accompanied by bells. The work strikes me not only as one of Penderecki's strongest, but one of the most moving and powerful works I have heard by a living composer.


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## jurianbai

hey that's a long and depth background info on this composer, thanks for writing. I'm not knowing him yet, in fact I haven't listen to the CD, my player still occupied by LOST season 3. 

I bought it because it's on sale, usuall price is S$ 22.


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## Sid James

I'm interested in hearing Penderecki's _Utrenja_, mentioned above. The fact that it has bells makes me want to hear it more - I love bells in classical music! So far, I have only heard a few of his choral works. _Canticum Canticorum Solomonis _ is quite a spooky, eerie work, with some quite dramatic effects. _Dies Irae _(the so-called _Auschwitz Oratorio_), sometimes sends chills up my spine, the choir gives out shrieks as if you were hearing the people being murdered in a gas chamber. It was (appropriately) premiered at Auschwitz. _Symphony No. 8 'Songs of Transience' _is a song-cycle in the vein of Mahler. Although written in 2005, it could almost have been written a hundred years before, especially if you take away some of the slight "texture music" effects.

I like Penderecki's music, but so far, I have not heard anything by him that is not "dark." I think he does that pretty well, but sometimes, I wish he were a bit less that way and maybe more subtle, like say the Frenchmen Messiaen & Dutilleux. I was listening to some Lutoslawski last night, and his music also engages me more than Penderecki's. I think that Lutoslawski's music has more subtlety, intimacy and colour, whereas Penderecki has a propensity to use pretty dark colours and more grand gestures to get his point across. Of course, this is generalising, but it's only my personal opinion, nothing more. Nonetheless, I would love to see a work done live by Penderecki - there's always a lot going on in his music, it can be very engaging in many ways...


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## KJohnson

*Krzysztof Penderecki*

One of the most important modern composers, in my opinion. I've been particularly intrigued by this solo piece:






Takes a long attention span to really enjoy this but its worth the effort. Interesting use of the silence and sound relationship.


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## KJohnson

I worked really hard to embed the video... Sorry. It's just a photo anyway, but it would be nice to know how to embed. The code from YouTube doesn't work. It just stays there as text.


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## mmsbls

Here's the Penderecki youtube video. The work is called Cadenza and it is for solo violin.






@KJohnson: to insert a video (for example, from youtube) copy the internet address (URL) of the youtube page where the video appears. Just above the text box in your message you will see several icons. There is one that looks like an envelope and two to the right of that is one that I guess looks like a film strip. If you put your cursor on that, it should say "Insert Video". Click on it and paste the URL of the video into the popup box. When you are finished, your message should have brackets are the word "video" both before and after the URL.


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## tdc

Another thread on Penderecki here - http://www.talkclassical.com/4937-krysztof-penderecki.html

Definetely a great composer!


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## KJohnson

Thank you very much for that!

Penderecki is still alive but his influence on many other composers is quite obvious. I think some time after his death his status will be considerably elevated. (I understand that this sort of futurism is an essentially useless business.)


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## haydnfan

Penderecki is one of my favorite composers. I like his chamber music and his symphonies in particular.


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## Head_case

His symphonic works move me more than his chamber music. His string quartets in particular leave me wondering what the point was, although I have that kind of feeling after listening to Lutoslawski too. 

Not so with his Polish contemporaries - Tadeusz Baird; Kryzstof Meyer, Slowinski, Lason, Knapik etc. Listening to all these composers' seminal string quartets, mostly premiered in the Warsaw festival ... I get the impression Penderecki's string quartets are grossly over-representation. Or perhaps, all others in Poland are grossly under-represented. 

Hmm. It's only an impression in any case.


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## haydnfan

You know what? I don't think I've heard his string quartets! I have this cd, and I love it (sextet, clarinet quartet, a piece for solo cello):










They do feel more abstract than his symphonies though, yup.


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## Truvianni

I think his music was interesting in the film “The Shining” yet I find it very similar to Stravinsky’s music whose music of the two I prefer.


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## haydnfan

Penderecki's music is completely different from Stravinsky. Stravinsky's music has gone through several stages, perhaps the most well known is his neoclassical style, which you don't hear at all in Penderecki, who started writing microtonal music and then changed into writing neotonal works using tonal clusters.


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## taduy

"Seven gates of Jelusalem " s truly the great symphony of 21th century , it was so vast , sublime and... so mysterious what i felt . As well as all of the symphonies of him , always be seductive melodies , the mysterious spirit what myself can't explain . But only his symphonies I interrest , the other kind of his works : concerto , string quartet , requiem.....so inaccessible to me


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## starthrower

I'm going to have to get a copy of the first symphony. The EMI set is a great value, but as Sid has mentioned, there's an awful lot of darkness. I'm leaning towards the Naxos disc featuring nos. 1 & 5.


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## Sid James

Good to get this thread moving again. I think that it's hard to reach middle ground in the debate as outlined above. On one side of the ring, *Jeremy Marchant *arguing for the experimental Penderecki and on the other *stlukesguildohio *arguing for the more traditional Penderecki. I'm quite on the fence with this, I have both types of his works on disc, I have not got anything more than what I talked about throughout this thread.

In some ways, Penderecki is like our own Australian veteran composer Peter Sculthorpe. Sculthorpe went through an earlier avant-garde phase culminating with his series of four _Sun Music _pieces for orchestra, written during the 1960's. Sculthorpe says that at the time, he and Penderecki were using similar effects & were making similar if not the same technical innovations with string writing & playing, but they didn't know about what eachother was doing at the time. Like Penderecki, Sculthorpe has since moved away from that experimental style which was heavily focused on rhythm and orchestral colour, to a style which embraces melody in a more traditional way. In any case, I think there is continuity between Sculthorpe's two main phases, as he has always been concerned with imaging the Australian continent in his music, whatever techniques he's using, etc...


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## Delicious Manager

I have to say I agree with Jeremy Marchant over Penderecki's inexplicable back-pedal into neo-Romanticism in the late 1970s. I had help-up Penderecki as being one of the most interesting and innovative of composers in the second half of the 20th century. Then he descended into this rather derivative style that I have little time for. It's not that I object to 'modern' composers writing in a conservative idiom; it's just that I find most of the music very boring. There are some more interesting works (such as the Sextet), but mostly I find them a pale reflection of the great composer that once was.


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## Jeremy Marchant

Delicious Manager puts my own thoughts very well.

I think what gets me is that noone would (seriously) write a novel in the style of Jane Austen, still less in a mannered pastiche of Jane Austen, so why is it believed plausible to write music in a laboured pastiche of C19 Romantic composers? Michael Torke is another one that irritates in this way.

It's instructive to compare Penderecki with his pupil Paul Patterson. In his youth, Patterson wrote unashamedly with the modernism espoused by his teacher. I've sung in his _Kyrie _for large chorus and piano and it is very effective (particularly the bit where three sopranos have to congregate around the piano and scream into it). He "calmed down" later, but works like the _Mass of the Sea_ (which I've also sung in) still adopt a distinctive C20 style: it is tonal, but Patterson is his own man and his music has integrity.

I feel that, at worst, Penderecki is being artistically dishonest, however emotionally honest he may be.


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## Rapide

Delicious Manager said:


> I have to say I agree with Jeremy Marchant over Penderecki's inexplicable back-pedal into neo-Romanticism in the late 1970s. I had help-up Penderecki as being one of the most interesting and innovative of composers in the second half of the 20th century. Then he descended into this rather derivative style that I have little time for. It's not that I object to 'modern' composers writing in a conservative idiom; it's just that I find most of the music very boring. There are some more interesting works (such as the Sextet), but mostly I find them a pale reflection of the great composer that once was.


Yeah i could agree with that. It's weird that Penderecki flipped back to this more conservative style. I don't know if he was being dishonest and or just trying to spread into broader appeal.


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## starthrower

I listened to the St. Luke Passion for the first time today. Wow! A massive work, and some of the strangest choral music I've ever heard. Is there a definitive recording of this work? I have the Largo CD borrowed from the library.


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## violadude

Krysztof Penderecki

Pieces I have by Penderecki

Anaklasis for strings and Percussion
Threnody for the victims of Hiroshima
Fonogrammi
De Natura Sonoris 1 and 2
Capriccio for violin and orchestra
Canticum Canticorum Salomnis
The Dream of Jacob
St. Luke Passion
Symphony 1-5
Violin sonatas 1 and 2
Miniatures for violin and piano
Cadenza for solo viola
Violin Concertos 1 and 2

I am in agreement with the general consensus of Penderecki fans that his earlier works are more attractive than his later works. His early works explore some *amazing* textures and sound worlds. Him along with Xenakis were some of the best at doing this imo, with Ligeti not too far behind. I couldn't even believe orchestras could make the sound that they did before I heard some of these pieces. One thing I like about these early pieces is especially that his "sound experiments" have a great structure. They always have a great arch, leading to an awesome climax and then settling down. There are various takes on this basic structure among these early works and the structure and careful thought-out way his sound experiment pieces are laid out give something really solid to hold onto. His earlier works were pretty attractive to me at first. I still like them every now and then, but the more I listened to his later works, the more I feel like he recycles material in a not so un-obvious way faaarr too often. Just my opinion.


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## tdc

starthrower said:


> I listened to the St. Luke Passion for the first time today. Wow! A massive work, and some of the strangest choral music I've ever heard. Is there a definitive recording of this work? I have the Largo CD borrowed from the library.


I'm not sure about definitive, but the Naxos recording with Antoni Wit is very good.


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## violadude

tdc said:


> I'm not sure about definitive, but the Naxos recording with Antoni Wit is very good.


Thats the one I have. Naxos has a great abundance of Penderecki pieces recorded. Just make sure you don't rely on their recording of the Hiroshima Threnody. It is such a bad recording, especially compared to the one on Matrix.


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## starthrower

I have the EMI set of recordings conducted by Penderecki. A great first purchase of his earlier works! I've heard the Naxos Threnody is rather tame, but the other pieces on that disc sound pretty interesting.


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## violadude

starthrower said:


> I have the EMI set of recordings conducted by Penderecki. A great first purchase of his earlier works! I've heard the Naxos Threnody is rather tame, but the other pieces on that disc sound pretty interesting.


Ya thats the one I have. The EMI one with Penderecki conducting, it is really good. I have the Naxos recording too and it is really tame (and lame) compared to the one on the former disc.


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## starthrower

What do you consider to be his most interesting symphonies? I only have the first one on the EMI set.


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## violadude

starthrower said:


> What do you consider to be his most interesting symphonies? I only have the first one on the EMI set.


Oh, maybe we don't have the same EMI set, mine doesnt have the first symphony on it. Anyway, his first symphony is the only one in his avant-garde style, the rest, starting with number 2 are in his neo-romantic style. Which means that most of his symphonies starting with 2 mostly sound like a mix of Bruckner, Mahler, Shostakovich, and a few others. To me the most interesting is 1 and 3 but I dont know if you dig his neo-romantic style or not.


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## starthrower

OK, judging from your list you must have the single Matrix CD. I have that one combined with another on a more recent 2-CD issue. But anyway, I'd like to pick up the Naxos CD w/ No.3, and Fluorescences even if the Threnody is lame. What the heck, it's cheap enough.


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## tdc

starthrower said:


> OK, judging from your list you must have the single Matrix CD. I have that one combined with another on a more recent 2-CD issue. But anyway, I'd like to pick up the Naxos CD w/ No.3, and Fluorescences even if the Threnody is lame. What the heck, it's cheap enough.


Its a great disc IMO another top notch Naxos recording. I didn't notice the Threnody being that bad on it, though admittedly that is not my favorite Penderecki work.


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## starthrower

Yeah, calling it lame is not really fair. It's just a different interpretation. Maybe not as intense as the composer's recording.


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## Vaneyes

Penderecki, for me, is in hybernation at the moment. Some CDs were culled, the symphonies and choral being the least favorite.

Current collection:

Cello Concertos, Viola Concerto arr, - Noras (Elatus)
Violin Concertos - Kulka & Yun (Naxos)
Violin Concerto 2 - Mutter (DG)
Orchestral incl. Sym. 1 - Penderecki (EMI Double Forte)
Sextet, Clarinet Quartet, etc. - Lagerspetz et al (Naxos)
Violin Sonatas, etc.Bieler & Tichman (Naxos)


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## Sid James

starthrower said:


> What do you consider to be his most interesting symphonies? I only have the first one on the EMI set.


The Naxos disc I described on my first post on this thread is pretty good, as it has the 8th symphony (conservative/neo-romantic song-cycle symphony combo, a la Mahler or Shostakovich, but with some lashes of stuff from Penderecki's old Avant-Garde toolkit) as well as the earlier and more experimental _Psalms of David _and_ Dies Irae _(or _Auschwitz Oratorio_). I've enjoyed this disc ever since quite a bit. There are these jabbing piano rhythms in the_ Psalms _are very 1960's, similar to Jerry Goldsmith's classic soundtrack to _The Planet of the Apes_, while the _Dies Irae_ is virtually sh*tting your pants stuff, if you pardon my expression there, very creepy to say the least, a bit like Ligeti's _Requiem_...


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## starthrower

Yeah, Penderecki writes some pretty weird choral music. I'm still not sure if I like the St Luke Passion? I wonder if Pope John Paul II ever heard this stuff? It's hard to find the time to sit still for 75 minutes and really listen closely. I've only done this one time, and there are definitely some very interesting moments in this piece. 

As for the Ligeti Requiem, I've only listened to it online and it didn't really grab me. I bought the Teldec box last year, but unfortunately it was missing disc 4 w/ the requiem, so I had to return it. I then bought the DG Clear Or Cloudy box, and I'm glad I did. There's a ton of great stuff on this set including several chamber works not included on the Teldec set.


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## Sid James

starthrower said:


> Yeah, Penderecki writes some pretty weird choral music...


Yes, it is wierd, he innovated there (new effects/techniques) & it's also quite hard to perform, so I'd guess that's kind of why his music doesn't get done live often, at least down here.



> ...As for the Ligeti Requiem, I've only listened to it online and it didn't really grab me...There's a ton of great stuff on this set including several chamber works not included on the Teldec set.


I like Ligeti, but he can be kind of full-on & very dark (like some of Penderecki, I think they have quite a few things in common). Last year I heard a performance live of his _Six Bagatelles for Wind Quintet _and it's a very good work, interesting textures in that, as well as quite a bit of humour. I like his other chamber works as well, but nowadays I've kind of gone off atonal/experimental things, or at least eased off on them compared to before...


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## HarpsichordConcerto

I have a CD of some of his chamber music. A Naxos CD featuring his clarinet quartet and a sextet. Considering when these pieces were composed, they sounded far more Romantic than I expected. And that's probably a good thing if he wants to have broader appeal these days.


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## starthrower

I like the Six Bagatelles For Wind Quintet. In fact, no. 3 made me think of a famous Zappa instrumental called G-Spot Tornado. Zappa was a fan, so maybe he was familiar with the piece.


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## starthrower

HarpsichordConcerto said:


> I have a CD of some of his chamber music. A Naxos CD featuring his clarinet quartet and a sextet. Considering when these pieces were composed, they sounded far more Romantic than I expected. And that's probably a good thing if he wants to have broader appeal these days.


I just picked up this CD. So far I've only listened to the sextet, and I think it's a great piece! Penderecki's writing sounds very inspired here. A little while back I bought another Naxos CD w/ his 3rd symphony among other works, but other than Fluorescences, the other performances sounded rather lackluster. I was a bit disappointed with the symphony, which wasn't as interesting and inspired as I had expected.


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde

HarpsichordConcerto said:


> I have a CD of some of his chamber music. A Naxos CD featuring his clarinet quartet and a sextet. Considering when these pieces were composed, they sounded far more Romantic than I expected. And that's probably a good thing if he wants to have broader appeal these days.


Some of his operas are described as "post romantic." I am more of a fan of his 60s stuff. Post romantic, not for me.


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## maestro267

I'm really getting into Penderecki's music now. Currently I have Utrenja, Credo, the 600th anniversary Cantata, the Viola Concerto and 2nd Cello Concerto, and I've just ordered the Te Deum, with other works including Polymorphia. All from the Antoni Wit/Naxos cycle.


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## Neo Romanza

Has anyone been collecting the Penderecki Dux Special Editions? Man, these are fantastic!!!


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## Vaneyes

Neo Romanza said:


> Has anyone been collecting the Penderecki Dux Special Editions? Man, these are fantastic!!!


Haven't heard. How do the same works compare with Wit's?


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## Neo Romanza

Vaneyes said:


> Haven't heard. How do the same works compare with Wit's?


I really can't answer this as I haven't heard many of Wit's performances. As for the few recordings I've heard in this Dux series, they seem pretty authoritative as the man himself is conducting with the exception of one of the recordings in the series (the one with _Symphony No. 2 'Christmas Eve'_ which is conducted by Wojciech Czepiel). I think these recordings contain a lot of depth in feeling and really capture the essence of the music. The playing is also top-notch.


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## Trout

I really like some of his music especially the Cello Concerto No. 1 and the Dies Irae. A lot of his music strikes me as intense and eerie while still remaining fairly cohesive. I should definitely look more into this composer in works such as Utrenja, Cello Concerto No. 2, and the symphonies.


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## Neo Romanza

Trout said:


> I really like some of his music especially the Cello Concerto No. 1 and the Dies Irae. A lot of his music strikes me as intense and eerie while still remaining fairly cohesive. I should definitely look more into this composer in works such as Utrenja, Cello Concerto No. 2, and the symphonies.


His music is intense no doubt. I don't listen to his music all the time, but I like being able to pull whatever work I want from my collection and listen to it at any given time. Really a fascinating composer who started off very much in the in-vogue avant-garde of the time but gradually breaking those shackles and composing in a more Neo-Romantic type of expression.


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## KenOC

Just to kick this thread alive -- I am totally unfamiliar with Penderecki. Now listening to his Symphony No. 3 (composer conducting) and find it fascinating. Oddly, I hear echoes of Shostakovich in it! A common Mahler influence? I look forward to listening to his other works.


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## Delicious Manager

KenOC said:


> Just to kick this thread alive -- I am totally unfamiliar with Penderecki. Now listening to his Symphony No. 3 (composer conducting) and find it fascinating. Oddly, I hear echoes of Shostakovich in it! A common Mahler influence? I look forward to listening to his other works.


This is a half-baked, watered-down version of a composer who used to be one of the most original voices in 20th-century European music. I can listen to only a few of Penderecki's works from the post-1976 period, preferring the vibrant, colourful and challenging music of the late 1950s, 1960s and early 1970s.


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## starthrower

I have the Naxos CD w/ no. 3, and I find it rather dull. The Threnody performance on this disc is also rather tame. But it's worth keeping for Fluorescences. The EMI 2 CD set with his early works is the one to hear, imo. EMI also has excellent sets by fellow Polish composers, Lutoslawki, and Szymanowski.


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## starthrower

Penderecki speaks very good English in this film.


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## Sid James

KenOC said:


> Just to kick this thread alive -- I am totally unfamiliar with Penderecki. Now listening to his Symphony No. 3 (composer conducting) and find it fascinating. Oddly, I hear echoes of Shostakovich in it! A common Mahler influence? I look forward to listening to his other works.


You might enjoy the Naxos disc of Penderecki's chamber music that I described earlier on this thread here. I agree with Starthrower's opinion of Penderecki's _Symphony #3_, I didn't really dig it, but his _Symphony #8_ - with vocals, also in his tonal/Neo-Romantic phase - does hit the mark for me. I talked of that and also the other two choral works on it in my opening post, and here.

I've got the EMI double cd set whose cover Starthrower posted earlier, works conducted by the composer. _Symphony #1_ on it, his only symphony in that earlier texture/noise phase, is quite amazing even if for its unique sonorities (and he uses an arch form, so it does have structure underneath all the effects). The other works on the set that grabbed me are the two famous ones - _Threnody_ and _Anaklasis_ - as well as the brutalistic _Cello Concerto #1_, the spooky choral piece on it _Canticum Canticorum Salomonis_, as well as _Emanationen for two string orchestras_.

Some of the things I talked about look as if they're on youtube.


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## starthrower

Giving no.8 a listen on Andre's recommendation.






Part 2


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## starthrower

Update: Holy crap! This is an awesome work! But the Naxos CD seems like it's about 14 minutes shorter than Penderecki's performance. I think I'm gonna get the Dux CD.


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## hpowders

Hey Kris. Sorry, but I really don't know what all the fuss is about. Shostakovich did this stuff a lot better.

Sorry!
hpowders


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## satoru

Hi fellow Penderecki lovers,

May I share a Penderecki story? It's from a professional horn player (who came to train our university student orchestra). 

Back in early 70s, Penderecki conducted a premier of his own work in Japan. As typical of his style of the day, the piece was full of dissonance, as if the keyboard was hit by both arms. While rehearsing, in the middle of the piece where full orchestra was playing, Penderecki stopped the orchestra and said "3rd horn, your note is too high". Our trainer was playing the 4th horn. As the stack of notes were so heavy, no one in horn section believed what Penderecki said. They took it as a bluff. The rehearsal went on, and again at the same spot, Penderecki stopped the orchestra and said the same thing, "3rd horn, your note is too high". The horn players still didn't believe it. After stopping the orchestra for the third time, Penderecki went to the piano and hit a cord, saying "this is the cord here". Then he played a single note saying "3rd horn, this is your note". He waved the 3rd horn to play his note, and lo and behold, the note played by 3rd horn was too high, indeed. After this, the full orchestra paid much more attention to what Penderecki said. Our trainer then told us: "Even though the cord Penderecki uses in his pieces are full of dissonance, he stacks the notes to get certain sound with a reason and a purpose, and he has ears to discriminate one to another when the sound is not right." 

After hearing this story, the way I listen to any piece of music changed, as I tried to understand composer's intention at every moment of music. 

I hope you enjoy this episode as much as I do!

Best,


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## elgar's ghost

For what it's worth, I like Penderecki's output whatever the era. Because he ended up eschewing what avant-garde/modernist elements there were in his earlier work some accuse him of copping out, playing it safe and retreading the same ground. Similar accusations were levelled in varying degrees at the likes of Hindemith, Weill and Antheil decades before. Maybe they're right, but I still enjoy Penderecki's later music and I certainly don't find it dull and/or lacking in depth.


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## deprofundis

By the way guys have you heard st luke passion and is orchestral work vol 2 these are the only material by Penderecki that i dont own yet.


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## starthrower

St Luke Passion is an awesome work! I recommend picking up a used copy of the out of print Argo CD. It's a great recording!


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## starthrower

I would love to get my hands on a copy of this album!


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## Guest

I like this recording of the Piano Concerto (original version) and the Concerto Grosso for 3 Cellos.


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## 38157

Penderecki is ******* sick (to use my city's vernacular), or to use his mother tongue, bardzo Krzysztof kocham. I'd very much like to go see him conduct some of his music (particularly his 1st and 3rd symphonies and Polish Requiem).


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## deprofundis

Penderecki orchestral work vol.1 is one of my favorite, among is recording, im looking for something similar or heavier for that mather, im a big fan of the fourth movement passacaglia-allegro moderato.Are there composer in the same league or better if i dig this symphony no.3 , what about new composer?or obscure composer no one heard of yet.


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## SilverSurfer

Hello, deprofundis, have you heard Fausto Romitelli?
GioCar has opened his Guestbook recently, and he's on fire: 2013 (he had been 50) and 2014 (10 years of his dead, at 41, then) have seen/heard his works all over the world.
In that thread you can find Dead city radio (1rst part of the intended triptich Audiodrome, which he could not complete), a kind of brutal de-construction of Strauss' Alpine.


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## Blancrocher

I enjoyed this video, in which Penderecki speaks of his past and present work as a composer, especially since I'm not very familiar with much of his oeuvre:






I especially liked it when he denied that he and his Polish contemporaries formed a "school" of any kind. When he met with them, he says, they never discussed music. "The artists i knew from the past...were lonely. Me too."

Near the end, he mentions his 2nd Violin Concerto "Metamorphosen," which he dedicated to Anne-Sophie Mutter, so I gave a first listen to this lovely, virtuosic piece:






I think I'll get the Mutter album soon!

*p.s.* I wasn't quite following what he was saying about working with pop musicians, but this is the event referred to:

http://drownedinsound.com/in_depth/4145325-open-er-2012--pendereckis-violin-revolution-in-poland


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## deprofundis

I whant to hear yah on two of Penderecki works, i kinda like Te deum but in a similar vein but i had a hard time trying to appreciated Dies irae + aus den psalmen davids, to be honnest i kinda hate dies irae its an uneasy lisening, dont know why.
So you guys are familiar whit these?


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## rsikora

You guys know of any composers similar to Penderecki? I'm looking for orchestral and/or choral music really really big giant clusters! My favorite works by Penderecki are:

Dies Irae, Kosmogonia, Cantata, De Natura Sonoris, Fluorescences, and Utrenja.


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## starthrower




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## starthrower




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## rsikora

Thanks so much for responses. I really liked the one by Roberto Gerhard. I'm going to look more into this fellow. 

Shout out to the mathematician and architect Xenakis. Metastasis is really fun!

Also, a shout out to another one of my favorite composers, Edgard Varese. That chord at the end of Ameriques has got to be the most intense chord in the history of music. I have been trying to find out what that chord is and how Varese wad able to come up with it.

I will listen to these pieces more in depth soon.

Thank you again!


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## starthrower

rsikora said:


> Thanks so much for responses. I really liked the one by Roberto Gerhard. I'm going to look more into this fellow. Thank you again!


You're welcome! I have the Chandos CDs represented on this YouTube page.
https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=gerhard+epithalamian


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## flamencosketches

A fascinating composer, probably one of the most significant alive.

He wrote a killer string quartet:






... and on the other side of the equation, his violin concerto written for Anne-Sophie Mutter is also very good.

Trying to decide where to go from here with his music. I think a CD with the famous Threnody and other orchestral works is in order.


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## starthrower

This is the recording I have on a VoxBox 2 disc set of Varese/Penderecki/Ligeti.


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## Janspe

Listening through the concertos and symphonies currently. So far I've done:

- Cello Concertos #1 & #2
- Violin Concertos #1 & #2
- Viola Concerto
- Flute Concerto
- Symphonies 1-6

I still feel pretty much lost with Penderecki. A lot of this stuff is really fascinating, but I'm just not seeing the bigger picture. Like, a lot of the concertos sound so similar to my ears, it feels like Penderecki has these same figurations running through all of his pieces. The material doesn't excite me enough, and I can't really put my finger on it as to why! Earlier, radical Penderecki is pretty cool but then again there are countless avant-garde composers whose output is more to my liking.

I'm still really happy to be exploring this composer, and I consider him an imporant and great artist, but maybe it's time to admit that his music just _isn't for me_. This doesn't happen very often - usually the more I engage with a composer, the more I start appreciating their personal idiom. So this has been a very intersting experience.

Does anyone share my experience?


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## flamencosketches

Janspe said:


> Listening through the concertos and symphonies currently. So far I've done:
> 
> - Cello Concertos #1 & #2
> - Violin Concertos #1 & #2
> - Viola Concerto
> - Flute Concerto
> - Symphonies 1-6
> 
> I still feel pretty much lost with Penderecki. A lot of this stuff is really fascinating, but I'm just not seeing the bigger picture. Like, a lot of the concertos sound so similar to my ears, it feels like Penderecki has these same figurations running through all of his pieces. The material doesn't excite me enough, and I can't really put my finger on it as to why! Earlier, radical Penderecki is pretty cool but then again there are countless avant-garde composers whose output is more to my liking.
> 
> I'm still really happy to be exploring this composer, and I consider him an imporant and great artist, but maybe it's time to admit that his music just _isn't for me_. This doesn't happen very often - usually the more I engage with a composer, the more I start appreciating their personal idiom. So this has been a very intersting experience.
> 
> Does anyone share my experience?


Try the Capriccio for Violin & Orchestra. I suspect it may be more to your liking.


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## Allegro Con Brio

Yesterday I heard the St. Luke Passion for the first time (at least parts of it). Terrifying music, really - the darkest, most anguished setting of the Passion story I've ever encountered. I found it lacked cohesion, but it certainly was captivating with the extended instrumental and vocal effects and the a capella movements - more of a reflective, meditative atmosphere than a big drama. I also loved how it ended on a huge tonal chord after almost an hour and a half of instability, as if providing a glimmer of light for the hope ahead. Overall, I would not hesitate to call it a masterpiece of 20th century choral music. A composer I have noted to check out further down the road.


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## flamencosketches

Allegro Con Brio said:


> Yesterday I heard the St. Luke Passion for the first time (at least parts of it). Terrifying music, really - the darkest, most anguished setting of the Passion story I've ever encountered. I found it lacked cohesion, but it certainly was captivating with the extended instrumental and vocal effects and the a capella movements - more of a reflective, meditative atmosphere than a big drama. I also loved how it ended on a huge tonal chord after almost an hour and a half of instability, as if providing a glimmer of light for the hope ahead. Overall, I would not hesitate to call it a masterpiece of 20th century choral music. A composer I have noted to check out further down the road.


I just got it on disc last week but haven't heard the whole thing yet. Like the music or not, I think it's important that there exists a Passion setting that is as dark and pained as this music. I reckon Passions are often too beautiful for the ultimate darkness of the story being told. But then again I'm neither a composer nor a theologian.


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## Alex Stadnicki

Janspe said:


> Listening through the concertos and symphonies currently. So far I've done:
> 
> - Cello Concertos #1 & #2
> - Violin Concertos #1 & #2
> - Viola Concerto
> - Flute Concerto
> - Symphonies 1-6
> 
> I still feel pretty much lost with Penderecki. A lot of this stuff is really fascinating, but I'm just not seeing the bigger picture. Like, a lot of the concertos sound so similar to my ears, it feels like Penderecki has these same figurations running through all of his pieces. The material doesn't excite me enough, and I can't really put my finger on it as to why! Earlier, radical Penderecki is pretty cool but then again there are countless avant-garde composers whose output is more to my liking.
> 
> I'm still really happy to be exploring this composer, and I consider him an imporant and great artist, but maybe it's time to admit that his music just _isn't for me_. This doesn't happen very often - usually the more I engage with a composer, the more I start appreciating their personal idiom. So this has been a very intersting experience.
> 
> Does anyone share my experience?


I recommend you a Credo. Beautiful, honest, touching music. It's a very traditional, neoromantic oratorio but I hope you like it. Wit on Naxos is best recording of this monumental piece.


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## MusicSybarite

Let's not forget Utrenja. Quite original music. Very appropriate to hear it in Halloween, for example.


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## Flutter

MusicSybarite said:


> Let's not forget Utrenja. Quite original music. Very appropriate to hear it in Halloween, for example.


Yes it's an amazing piece. But thematically it's literally an Easter work, it's about the crucifixion of Jesus (as per Christianity).

I love love love the dissonance in that work :tiphat:


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## Joe B

flamencosketches said:


> I just got it on disc last week but haven't heard the whole thing yet. Like the music or not, *I think it's important that there exists a Passion setting that is as dark and pained as this music*. I reckon Passions are often too beautiful for the ultimate darkness of the story being told. But then again I'm neither a composer nor a theologian.


You should give a listen to Eriks Esenvalds "St Luke Passion": dark, pained and beautiful.


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## MusicSybarite

Flutter said:


> Yes it's an amazing piece. But thematically it's literally an Easter work, it's about the crucifixion of Jesus (as per Christianity).
> 
> I love love love the dissonance in that work :tiphat:


Indeed! I just said that because of its utterly scary nature!


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## flamencosketches

Joe B said:


> You should give a listen to Eriks Esenvalds "St Luke Passion": dark, pained and beautiful.


Thanks, I will!


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## Guest

I love his 3rd Symphony--it's so intense!


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## Flutter

I've got his 7th symphony on at the moment, it's so epic!


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## CnC Bartok

I have just ordered his Sixth Symphony. It doesn't seem to be available here in the UK, so have ordered it from the other side of The Pond. This probably means it will arrive in October  but I suppoe there are valid reasons for this...conducted by Wojciech Rajski, whose Beethoven Symphony cycle is excellent, btw! Stephan Genz as baritone, so I am expecting good things.

Interesting that a "lack of cohesion" has been mentioned about Penderecki's music. I think his style is as much about instances and clumps, sounds and dissonances as anything else, so the "narrative" is - it's there, of course! - often difficult to pick out.


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## anahit

So sad that he passed away. Rest in peace, Master!


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## Gallus

The Credo is so good...


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## CnC Bartok

The belated Sixth Symphony is really beautiful, by the way. A 21st century Lied von der Erde?


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## Guest

My physician and friend (from Poland) used to walk his dog with Penderecki in Krakow or Warsaw (cannot remember which). That was some decades ago, of course, since he's been in Australia since 2000.

Just saying!!


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## arapinho1

St. Luke Passion is so good


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## starthrower

The last disc I listened to which is on my keeper pile.


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## Neo Romanza

On Penderecki's passing: to say we lost a master last year, would be an understatement. I'm just relieved that his music has finally clicked with me. I'm completely onboard with both the early, avant-garde works and his turn to a more Neo-Romantic style. Honestly, it still sounds like him no matter the style it is written in and this is a testament to his unique and unmistakable approach.

I'm also thankful that he finished his 6th symphony, which has been on many of his fans' minds for quite some time I'd imagine. Will he finish it? Will he take it to his grave with him? What we got is a marvelous work that isn't far removed from the tradition of other song-symphonies like Mahler's _Das Lied von der Erde_ or Zemlinsky's _Lyrische Symphonie_. I found the inclusion of the erhu to be a beautiful touch.


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## catface

I have exactly one disc of his music in my collection (although I definitely intend to add many others!), and that is a piece that hasn't been discussed yet in this thread: the Magnificat. It sits at a sort of transitional point in Penderecki's development, and I think it's worth observing that his turn from avant-garde to neo-romantic styles was not a sudden break. There was no dramatic silence a la Part, and I think Neo Romanza is absolutely correct to observe the profound continuity in the whole body of work. I get the impression of a principled artist who followed his craft wherever it carried him, even when that meant sacrificing a style that he had success in. He reminds me of Derain and especially Diebenkorn in that way, although the character of their work couldn't be farther apart.

Anyway, has anyone heard the Magnificat? I think it's pretty good, although perhaps not his best. Like the Passion it resolves ultimately on a satisfying tonal chord, only you have to wait about half as long to get there!


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## Neo Romanza

catface said:


> I have exactly one disc of his music in my collection (although I definitely intend to add many others!), and that is a piece that hasn't been discussed yet in this thread: the Magnificat. It sits at a sort of transitional point in Penderecki's development, and I think it's worth observing that his turn from avant-garde to neo-romantic styles was not a sudden break. There was no dramatic silence a la Part, and I think Neo Romanza is absolutely correct to observe the profound continuity in the whole body of work. I get the impression of a principled artist who followed his craft wherever it carried him, even when that meant sacrificing a style that he had success in. He reminds me of Derain and especially Diebenkorn in that way, although the character of their work couldn't be farther apart.
> 
> Anyway, has anyone heard the Magnificat? I think it's pretty good, although perhaps not his best. Like the Passion it resolves ultimately on a satisfying tonal chord, only you have to wait about half as long to get there!


Interesting perspective and I largely agree. All of these large choral works are worth listening to many times, because as you rightfully pointed out they are quite vast in their scope. Works like the _St. Luke Passion_ (his huge early success for him), _Utrenja_, _Polish Requiem_, _Credo_, _Te Deum_ and the _Magnificat_ are stunning in their expressive range and contain many outstanding moments. What are some of your other favorite Penderecki works?


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## catface

Up to this point I was mostly familiar with his choral output, but recently I've really enjoyed listening to more of his instrumental work. I'm fond of his second symphony and his later chamber music, and especially his concerti. Currently I'm waiting for his cello concerto to arrive in the mail, and what impressed me about it online was his many uses of percussion -- this is a more appealing aspect of his style to me than the micropolyphony. Unfortunately for me, I prefer to buy and listen to my classical music on LP, so my choices are really limited for composers as late as Penderecki. I'm still waiting for classical labels to jump on board the vinyl revival bandwagon!


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## Neo Romanza

catface said:


> Up to this point I was mostly familiar with his choral output, but recently I've really enjoyed listening to more of his instrumental work. I'm fond of his second symphony and his later chamber music, and especially his concerti. Currently I'm waiting for his cello concerto to arrive in the mail, and what impressed me about it online was his many uses of percussion -- this is a more appealing aspect of his style to me than the micropolyphony. Unfortunately for me, I prefer to buy and listen to my classical music on LP, so my choices are really limited for composers as late as Penderecki. I'm still waiting for classical labels to jump on board the vinyl revival bandwagon!


I will tell you that I have yet to hear a work from Penderecki that I disliked. A remarkably consistent composer and one that is actually full of surprises, too. A lot of listeners think he's a composer of ominous-sounding or "scary" music, but this not only does his music a disservice, but it does the listener one as well. Anyway, hopefully, you'll find more Penderecki on LP, but I do urge you to get into CDs, because this is really where you'll be able to hear a lot of music, especially late 20th Century music. The CD is the best thing to happen for classical music, IMHO.

Edit:

I'm also fond of his _Christmas Symphony_. A remarkable work that gets better and better as time wears on it seems. For the first-time, I listened to his _Seven Gates of Jerusalem, "Symphony No. 7"_ last night and thoroughly enjoyed it. A marvelous work. I haven't heard his _Symphony No. 8 "Lieder der Vergänglichkeit"_ either, so I plan on listening to this work at some point today. I have two recordings of it: Penderecki conducted performance on Dux and Wit's on Naxos. I'm not sure which one I'll listen to as I'm sure they're both good.


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## catface

Maybe someday I'll supplement my collection with CDs (the selection is incomparable), but I do have a practical reason for preferring LPs: I have a horrible character flaw that causes me to skip around tracks on a CD, but with vinyl the temptation isn't there and I am much more able to listen to a long piece all the way through.

I agree that Penderecki is a composer who seems never to disappoint. I'm always interested in innovative approaches to the traditional forms, and as a Catholic I'm always keen to explore modern creative expressions from my coreligionists. I've thought of Penderecki as a sort of Dark Messiaen in the past, but as you point out, the more you listen the more variety you find in his tone.


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## Neo Romanza

catface said:


> Maybe someday I'll supplement my collection with CDs (the selection is incomparable), but I do have a practical reason for preferring LPs: I have a horrible character flaw that causes me to skip around tracks on a CD, but with vinyl the temptation isn't there and I am much more able to listen to a long piece all the way through.
> 
> I agree that Penderecki is a composer who seems never to disappoint. I'm always interested in innovative approaches to the traditional forms, and as a Catholic I'm always keen to explore modern creative expressions from my coreligionists. I've thought of Penderecki as a sort of Dark Messiaen in the past, but as you point out, the more you listen the more variety you find in his tone.


A suggestion: if you treat CDs like you would LPs, then maybe the compulsion to skip tracks wouldn't be an issue.  Of the choral works that you've heard, which one is your favorite? Right now, for me, it would be _St. Luke Passion_ and this is only because I'm coming from a fresh listen to it. I listened to the outstanding Kent Nagano performance on BIS several nights ago. I know you don't do CDs, but you've got to check out this performance:


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## catface

I'll definitely see about tracking down that performance! Since I own the Magnificat, that's definitely the work I've spent the most time with, but I'm also a fan of the Te Deum, the Polish Requiem, and Paradise Lost from what I've heard (which is not the entire work in any of these cases. I suppose "mostly familiar" in this case is as opposed to my familiarity with his instrumental work, and not really and truly familiar). I've heard the Luke Passion a long time ago (I believe I played it once on my university radio station during a long daytime slot -- I made lots of questionable programming decisions like that), but it's been high on my list of significant religious works from the 20th century to listen to. It seems like the other end of the Eastern Bloc Passion Setting Spectrum from Part's St. John.


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## Neo Romanza

catface said:


> I'll definitely see about tracking down that performance! Since I own the Magnificat, that's definitely the work I've spent the most time with, but I'm also a fan of the Te Deum, the Polish Requiem, and Paradise Lost from what I've heard (which is not the entire work in any of these cases. I suppose "mostly familiar" in this case is as opposed to my familiarity with his instrumental work, and not really and truly familiar). I've heard the Luke Passion a long time ago (I believe I played it once on my university radio station during a long daytime slot -- I made lots of questionable programming decisions like that), but it's been high on my list of significant religious works from the 20th century to listen to. It seems like the other end of the Eastern Bloc Passion Setting Spectrum from Part's St. John.


Don't worry I'd make a lot of questionable choices as well if I worked a radio station. I'd probably be fired within an hour of getting hired.  I'd play something like Boulez or Scelsi and basically scare the hell out of everyone! But I'm sure the avant-garde listeners would love it. Anyway, I kind of developed a strange like/dislike for Arvo Pärt. I love his 3rd symphony, _Stabat Mater_, _Tabula Rasa_, _In Memoriam Benjamin Britten_, _Fratres_ and the _Te Deum_, but that's about it. I could be forgetting some works, but it seems when that whole tintinnabuli style he developed was in full swing is when I really enjoyed his music, but it seems that he hasn't done really much of anything worthwhile since the creation of this style. Anyway, I'm getting away from Penderecki. Yes, the _Magnificat_ is great, but I only own one performance of it and it's with Antoni Wit on Naxos. I still haven't heard the _Te Deum_ or _Credo_, but I'm hoping to get around to it soon.


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## Neo Romanza

Janspe said:


> Listening through the concertos and symphonies currently. So far I've done:
> 
> - Cello Concertos #1 & #2
> - Violin Concertos #1 & #2
> - Viola Concerto
> - Flute Concerto
> - Symphonies 1-6
> 
> I still feel pretty much lost with Penderecki. A lot of this stuff is really fascinating, but I'm just not seeing the bigger picture. Like, a lot of the concertos sound so similar to my ears, it feels like Penderecki has these same figurations running through all of his pieces. The material doesn't excite me enough, and I can't really put my finger on it as to why! Earlier, radical Penderecki is pretty cool but then again there are countless avant-garde composers whose output is more to my liking.
> 
> I'm still really happy to be exploring this composer, and I consider him an imporant and great artist, but maybe it's time to admit that his music just _isn't for me_. This doesn't happen very often - usually the more I engage with a composer, the more I start appreciating their personal idiom. So this has been a very intersting experience.
> 
> Does anyone share my experience?


I certainly shared your experience at first. I went for quite some time disliking anything I've heard from him. In fact, here was one of my early criticisms that I wrote (not on this forum):

I know this post will warrant a 'thanks for stopping by' reply, but I have a confession to make: I have yet to hear a Penderecki work I enjoy. Unlike many composers of his generation, I find it difficult to get through one of his works without constantly thinking "What's the point?" This isn't music like Takemitsu or Sculthorpe where I can get lost in their 'soundscapes' nor is this a composer like Hartmann or Lutoslawski where I can hear the past in their music and/or some kind of link to the great tradition that keeps it 'grounded' so to speak. Penderecki just feels like a composer that has been going through the motions for decades with the exception of his early, more experimental works. I mean he ranks up there with Pettersson as coming across as grandstanding with no platform to stand on. I understand misery (probably better than I should), but this shouldn't be your only resource as a composer. To sum up, I believe Penderecki is a one-trick pony that has really worn out that one trick decades ago.

All IMHO of course and it's okay to tell me I'm ignorant and I need to clean my ears out. I've heard it all before.

[Post dated August 2015]

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Of course, nowadays I'm whistling quite a different tune. Since this post I had made in 2015, I have listened to A LOT of his music from the early avant-garde works to his turn to Neo-Romanticism. Let me say that I now love so much of what I've heard. While I do think his music is of a darker hue that even in this kind of sound-world, there is actually quite a bit of variety --- more than I initially thought. Give a listen to his _Symphony No. 8, "Lieder der Vergänglichkeit"_ and then listen to the _Seven Gates of Jerusalem, "Symphony No. 7"_. There is quite a difference in these works and the same could be said of his _St. Luke Passion_ and the _Polish Requiem_. I think it's all a matter of developing an understanding of the composer's musical language. I mean there's so much of Messiaen that you could level the whole "everything sounds alike" criticism to, but anyone who knows this composer's music well knows this isn't true. You may just not like Penderecki's style, but I have to suggest that you keep listening and maybe something more positive will happen for you.


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