# Chopin Ballades



## DTut

Just got back from the mid-term university students piano recitals. One of them played the Ballade #1 in G min. I was floored! What an awesome piece. Good melodies and plenty of fireworks. Can't wait to get the other four. 

Dave


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## Ravellian

Yes, the first ballade is the most famous and probably the greatest of Chopin's four ballades. Lots of drama, lots of expressive freedom for the pianist. This recording by Zimerman is probably my favorite:






The 2nd and 3rd are smaller in structure, but the 2nd has one of the loveliest opening melodies in all of keyboard music.


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## Rasa

Zimmerman is a l0rde of the klavier!


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## TRendfrey

I very much so like Chopin, and this rendition of his first ballade is simply brilliant.


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## Orange Soda King

Chopin's Ballades are great works, and they are very difficult to play.

I played... well, wrestled with... the second ballade for a while:





The fourth is the most expansive, you should give it a listen!


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## DTut

OSK, outstanding playing. Believe me, I believe you that the Ballades are very difficult! I'll listen to the fourth one tonight.


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## Niklav

OSK
For how long had you preparing this? I would suggest a little slower tempo in the Andantino part, and pay attention to your dynamics at the Presto Con Fuoco part.


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## Rasa

Niklav said:


> OSK
> For how long had you preparing this? I would suggest a little slower tempo in the Andantino part, and pay attention to your dynamics at the Presto Con Fuoco part.


Could we hear your interpretation for reference?


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## Niklav

What's wrong with you people??? Whenever someone makes a suggestion of how a piece should be played, I ALWAYS see replies of that content "why don't you show us yourself??", "PLAY it like this if you can", this has got to STOP!! PLEASE!!! I JUST made a suggestion of how this Ballade should be according to MY OPINION. It DOESN'T mean that this is the only RIGHT way!! So PLEASE!!


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## Rasa

y u so mad though?


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## Niklav

Rasa said:


> y u so mad though?


'Cause i'm just sick of that. No, you can't hear my interpretation, because I won't upload a video of my playing just to prove that my suggestions are right.


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## Ukko

*They gotta know the intent*



Niklav said:


> What's wrong with you people??? Whenever someone makes a suggestion of how a piece should be played, I ALWAYS see replies of that content "why don't you show us yourself??", "PLAY it like this if you can", this has got to STOP!! PLEASE!!! I JUST made a suggestion of how this Ballade should be according to MY OPINION. It DOESN'T mean that this is the only RIGHT way!! So PLEASE!!





Rasa said:


> y u so mad though?


I sympathize with _Niklav._ Simple suggestions-without-malice are often taken as criticism when they are offered in plain language. In general, plain language on any subject needs a lead-in, sometimes even among friends. in emoticon code it's:

 >> 

:tiphat:


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## Orange Soda King

Come on guys, it's okay for someone to offer criticism/suggestions. For tempo, there are many arguments about what "Andantino" means, especially during that time. As for dynamics, you're probably right, although the compressing microphone of the video camera does me no favors. That is an old recording and I have not played it recently, but whenever I do, I will keep dynamic and tempo concerns in mind.


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## Niklav

Orange Soda King said:


> Come on guys, it's okay for someone to offer criticism/suggestions. For tempo, there are many arguments about what "Andantino" means, especially during that time. As for dynamics, you're probably right, although the compressing microphone of the video camera does me no favors. That is an old recording and I have not played it recently, but whenever I do, I will keep dynamic and tempo concerns in mind.


This interpretation of this huge pianist is in my opinion the perfect interpretation.


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## Orange Soda King

Niklav said:


> This interpretation of this huge pianist is in my opinion the perfect interpretation.


I see why you like the Andantino section slower. I don't remember the Andantino argument right off the top of my head, but I just remember some thinking over time it "sped up" whereas others think it "slowed down." Oh well. Pogorelich was a great pianist, sad about his playing now... I didn't really listen to recordings for reference when learning this, actually.


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## Nix

I've always found the 1st Ballade to be rather 2 dimensional. Much prefer the preludes, etudes and nocturnes.


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## Aramis

The last part of 1st ballade is one of most stunning explosions of burning passion I've ever heard, it's essence of romantic expression, romantic in original meaning of this word sadly forgotten and replaced with sentimental tunes of Rachmaninow as definition of romanticism. No offence towards Rachmaninow.

My favourite recording of it after Zimerman is by Helene Grimaud.


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## teccomin

Aramis said:


> The last part of 1st ballade is one of most stunning explosions of burning passion I've ever heard, it's essence of romantic expression, romantic in original meaning of this word sadly forgotten and replaced with sentimental tunes of Rachmaninow as definition of romanticism. No offence towards Rachmaninow.
> 
> My favourite recording of it after Zimerman is by Helene Grimaud.


Try the last part of 3rd ballade, I personally find it to be more explosive with passion


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## Vaneyes

Another vote for the 3rd.


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## Lukecash12

Big surprise: Sofronitsky's recordings of the second and fourth are definitely my favorite Ballade recordings.


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## Orange Soda King

Lukecash12 said:


> Big surprise: Sofronitsky's recordings of the second and fourth are definitely my favorite Ballade recordings.


I need to listen to those, then!


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## Lukecash12

Sorry it took me so long to get back to you, SodaKing, but here are the recordings (and I meant the third not the second):
















Those are of him playing the 1st, 3rd, and 4th ballades.


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## Lukecash12

The way he uses rubato so judiciously but appropriately, the tenuto in the right hand melody, and his expertise in voicing matched with his exquisite control of dynamics, make him my favorite interpreter of the Ballades.


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## Aramis

Not bad interpretations but personally I don't find them so great that I would stand the terrible recording quality and piano timbre a'la wild west saloon for their sake.


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## Il_Penseroso

Sofronitsky's interpretations are very good ones, but rather more personal than the standards of today's playing style can easily agree.

Here, Istvan Szekely, hungarian pianist. I like his playing :


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## Sofronitsky

Lukecash12 said:


> The way he uses rubato so judiciously but appropriately, the tenuto in the right hand melody, and his expertise in voicing matched with his exquisite control of dynamics, make him my favorite interpreter of the Ballades.


 Leaving out his unsurpassed tone, you have just described why he is my favorite for everything.


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## Il_Penseroso

Sofronitsky said:


> Leaving out his unsurpassed tone, you have just described why he is my favorite for everything.


He was a superb pianist of the golden age piano playing tradition ... a tradition which is not acceptable by today's academic educated pianists, but personally I prefer an artist with a deep and emotional sense of melody, a lyrical taste ! This is what the most concert pianists of today have forgotten. Just listen to Martha Argerich or the younger Boris Berezovsky : having incredible technique of course, maybe more than someone like Sofronitsky, but after all ...harsh, harsh ... yes, always harsh sounds !


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## Sofronitsky

Il_Penseroso said:


> He was a superb pianist of the golden age piano playing tradition ... a tradition which is not acceptable by today's academic educated pianists, but personally I prefer an artist with a deep and emotional sense of melody, a lyrical taste ! This is what the most concert pianists of today have forgotten. Just listen to Martha Argerich or the younger Boris Berezovsky : having incredible technique of course, maybe more than someone like Sofronitsky, but after all ...harsh, harsh ... yes, always harsh sounds !


 To be quite honest, my first choice for listening to a new work would always be Richter. Once I've come to know a work, however, I am always most interested in interpretations by Sofronitsky. Sofronitsky adds color and personal meaning to his playing. It makes me think of a quote on Rachmaninoff, another pianist I love alot "He ennobled everything that he played".


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## Couchie

I love the terrible contrary motion chromatic octave scale ending the first Ballad. I broke a piano string (the G2) playing it, almost fell off my stool from the resulting explosion. It costed hundreds of dollars to replace. Worth it.


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## Lukecash12

Il_Penseroso said:


> He was a superb pianist of the golden age piano playing tradition ... a tradition which is not acceptable by today's academic educated pianists, but personally I prefer an artist with a deep and emotional sense of melody, a lyrical taste ! This is what the most concert pianists of today have forgotten. Just listen to Martha Argerich or the younger Boris Berezovsky : having incredible technique of course, maybe more than someone like Sofronitsky, but after all ...harsh, harsh ... yes, always harsh sounds !


I don't understand: You mean to say that they find themselves more sophisticated? I don't think they have superior technique, because they don't appreciate the science of striking a key exactly the way you want to strike it, quite as much as a V.S.O.P.


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## Il_Penseroso

Lukecash12 said:


> I don't understand: You mean to say that they find themselves more sophisticated? I don't think they have superior technique, because they don't appreciate the science of striking a key exactly the way you want to strike it, quite as much as a V.S.O.P.


Don't undersatnd this abbreviation V.S.O.P. but not so important, It's basically a matter of taste, I didn't say anything about their technique, but yes, after all, I've found someone like De Pachmann, in spite of his wrong notes, yet more poetical and expressive than Berezovsky in spite of his (no doubt) terrific technique !


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## Lukecash12

Il_Penseroso said:


> Don't undersatnd this abbreviation V.S.O.P. but not so important, It's basically a matter of taste, I didn't say anything about their technique, but yes, after all, I've found someone like De Pachmann, in spite of his wrong notes, yet more poetical and expressive than Berezovsky in spite of his (no doubt) terrific technique !


While I do have my tastes, it's demonstrable to me that a V.S.O.P. (very superior older pianist) from before the modern era, would have come out of a pedagogue that had a massive array of techniques that they taught their students. That is, as opposed to pianists like Kissin or Berezovsky who don't have the wrist technique, or discernment between the purposes of flat fingered vs curled, in order to finely distinguish between voices, and between specific dynamic markings. I could care less how "impressive" their tempi are, when they apparently can't render to us the voices of a piece better than a V.S.O.P.'s student who is practicing counterpoint grade 4. There's also something really wrong when a pianist as critically acclaimed as Berezovsky plays Balakirev's Islamey and he doesn't pedal clearly enough to render the mid section.

So yes, a lot of today's hotshots (I don't mean to generalize, other than to key in to the current day's standards) can dispense with a few niceties. It shouldn't be hard to discern between pianists like Kissin and Lang Lang, and pianists like Lev Oberin, Grigory Ginzburg, Emil von Sauer, Alfred Cortot, Ronald Smith, etc.

When you think of technical difficulty, do you think of a speed wall, or do you think of a litmus like no lateral movement of the wrists when playing a difficult three part invention or a piano concerto like Saint Saens' third? No offense meant. I just wanted to level with you what it is that distinguishes a pedagogue, see where you're at with that.


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## Il_Penseroso

Lukecash12 said:


> While I do have my tastes ...


And your tastes are to be respectable, with pleasure of course ... I just wonder how a personal point of view could make such reactions as the ones of (pardon me, but) yours :



> You mean to say that they find themselves more sophisticated ?





> ... I don't think they have superior technique, because they don't appreciate the science of striking a key exactly the way you want to strike it





> ... I just wanted to level with you what it is that distinguishes a pedagogue, see where you're at with that.


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## elgar's ghost

Niklav said:


> 'Cause i'm just sick of that. No, you can't hear my interpretation, because I won't upload a video of my playing just to prove that my suggestions are right.


Ouch - tetchy... No question were dealing with a real musician here. :devil:


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## Ukko

elgars ghost said:


> Ouch - tetchy... No question were dealing with a real musician here. :devil:


Just in case _Niklav_ is more familiar with the American idiom than the British... 'tetchy' probably means 'touchy', not mildly insane.


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## Lukecash12

> And your tastes are to be respectable, with pleasure of course ... I just wonder how a personal point of view could make such reactions as the ones of (pardon me, but) yours :


Hmmm... I wasn't expressing my tastes to you at all. I was expressing that Berezovsky and other modern pianists like him do not, in fact, display great techniques. They play fast, and often improperly so, that's all.


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## kv466

Lukecash12 said:


> Hmmm...They play fast, and often improperly so, that's all.


I don't even know who you're talking about while I guess it's about Chopin Ballades in which case I'd refer to either A.R. or E.W. but just the same...I like this quote because...

...there is simply no such thing as 'improperly' in music!...even when written by a 'genius', music should be taken as what it is...notes written on a page...if you take the composer's exact demands to heart, you are taking what he/she felt at that precise moment and nothing more into consideration...if there is nothing more one can do to improve upon or change a scripted music from the past,...there is really nothing that this said person should really be wasting anyone's time with...music is free and music is alive...to incarcerate a gorgeous piece of someone's soul into some scribbled text is simply a way of keeping history...it's not in any way a means of preserving a real human being's intent, or exclamation!...maybe they were wrong...this is the soul reason why I find so many at odds with my favorite versions of things: because the composer did not write it as such. Sad.


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## Lukecash12

kv466 said:


> I don't even know who you're talking about while I guess it's about Chopin Ballades in which case I'd refer to either A.R. or E.W. but just the same...I like this quote because...
> 
> ...there is simply no such thing as 'improperly' in music!...even when written by a 'genius', music should be taken as what it is...notes written on a page...if you take the composer's exact demands to heart, you are taking what he/she felt at that precise moment and nothing more into consideration...if there is nothing more one can do to improve upon or change a scripted music from the past,...there is really nothing that this said person should really be wasting anyone's time with...music is free and music is alive...to incarcerate a gorgeous piece of someone's soul into some scribbled text is simply a way of keeping history...it's not in any way a means of preserving a real human being's intent, or exclamation!...maybe they were wrong...this is the soul reason why I find so many at odds with my favorite versions of things: because the composer did not write it as such. Sad.


Ah, that's a great big discussion that deserves it's own thread. If you've noticed my passion recently, you might tell that I would approach the issue with an appreciation for history.

As for how this is relevant to the thread, all that I meant to articulate was that I preferred a V.S.O.P.'s interpretation of Chopin's Ballades. Then I was told this:



> He was a superb pianist of the golden age piano playing tradition ... a tradition which is not acceptable by today's academic educated pianists, but personally I prefer an artist with a deep and emotional sense of melody, a lyrical taste ! This is what the most concert pianists of today have forgotten. Just listen to Martha Argerich or the younger Boris Berezovsky : having incredible technique of course, maybe more than someone like Sofronitsky, but after all ...harsh, harsh ... yes, always harsh sounds !


I felt compelled to point out that these hotshots today don't have the technique they are made out to have.


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## Il_Penseroso

Lukecash12 said:


> Hmmm... I wasn't expressing my tastes to you at all. I was expressing that Berezovsky and other modern pianists like him do not, in fact, display great techniques. They play fast, and often improperly so, that's all.





> I felt compelled to point out that these hotshots today don't have the technique they are made out to have.


You didn't get my word ... ok, never mind !


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## Adie

This video includes Ballade No4 and interesting comment


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## teej

In my opinion Rubinsten's performances of the Ballades are second to none. I am completely addicted to them, particularly number 4...simply divine.


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## Lukecash12

Pogorelich's recordings of the Ballades are genius:


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