# TC Composers' Competition



## Ramako

I couldn't find a thread for this before, at least not a recent one. So I thought I'd sound out an idea, even though I'm pretty new here.

Given that there are a lot of such things, I wondered whether it might not be a nice idea to have a competition for composers here, perhaps even on a regular basis (every year/month/week/second whatever ).

Everyone would write a piece, perhaps subject to some conditions we could come up with. For example a 'quartet' competition, or a 'sonata', or perhaps subject to structural or other conditions than instrumental (or none at all!). At least it seems sensible to perhaps place a time limit on the entries.

There are a few possible ways of judging it. My favoured suggestion would be posting the competing pieces on the main forum, and allowing everyone to vote in a poll. If anyone's interested.

Given the wide varieties of styles going, it could be sensible to do a 'modernish' one and a 'classicalish' one, since even here on TC the dinosaurs might outnumber the anti-dinosaurs, and it could be biased. Or maybe not.

The worst thing I can think of is that it might increase bad feeling as a result of professional rivalry  but of course that's unlikely because no-one really _loses_; they are just _misunderstood_ 

Anyway, whatever people think. I can understand that it takes time etc. - I know that well enough! I thought I'd put it up the flagpole and see if anyone salutes, as the (terrible) saying goes.


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## Crudblud

Would we be required to provide a score, or would it just be judged as actual music?


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## Ramako

Crudblud said:


> Would we be required to provide a score...?


Probably not: I wouldn't have thought it's necessary. Depends on the judging method and general consensus of course.


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## Crudblud

Okay. Did you have any idea as to what we might do for the first competition? I was thinking that maybe a solo piano piece would be a nice way to ease in to things, piano probably being the most universally loved instrument among members here.


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## contra7

This competition thing would be great!! Sign me in!


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## Ramako

Crudblud said:


> Okay. Did you have any idea as to what we might do for the first competition? I was thinking that maybe a solo piano piece would be a nice way to ease in to things, piano probably being the most universally loved instrument among members here.


I guess I was more concerned to see how many people were interested in this, to see if the idea was going to go ahead or had already suffered brain damage from hitting a brick wall.

But yes, a solo piano piece does sound like a good starting point.


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## Ramako

contra7 said:


> This competition thing would be great!! Sign me in!


Excellent!


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## Crudblud

Ramako said:


> I guess I was more concerned to see how many people were interested in this, to see if the idea was going to go ahead or had already suffered brain damage from hitting a brick wall.


Well I think it's a great idea, and I'm sure the majority of composers here would love to participate in friendly competitions, especially if they see it as a learning opportunity. Say none of us have written a string quartet and are then tasked with writing one, not only are we challenged to try new things but by listening and comparing other people's work with our own we can learn many different approaches to particular problems.


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## BurningDesire

I'm game for this too.


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## mmsbls

I'm not a composer and wouldn't participate, but I would be more likely to listen to members' music through a competition. My one suggestion would be to make the competition anonymous for the voting. Knowing the composer could influence people's reviews and choices.


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## jalex

I'd do this. I need some motivation to compose at the moment anyway.


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## Crudblud

mmsbls said:


> I'm not a composer and wouldn't participate, but I would be more likely to listen to members' music through a competition. My one suggestion would be to make the competition anonymous for the voting. Knowing the composer could influence people's reviews and choices.


That's a good call, especially with the all the recent bickering. Although I don't know how we would be able to avoid it.


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## nicecomposer

i'd love to do this. i used to enter contests on songfight, and it was always fun


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## jani

Do we have to write in certain't form?
If we chose a solo piano piece as the first composition can we Write a Rondo?Prelude? Polonaise? Sonata/sonatina if we want?
Or do we chose a form?


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## Ramako

mmsbls said:


> My one suggestion would be to make the competition anonymous for the voting. Knowing the composer could influence people's reviews and choices.


Agreed - thanks for the excellent idea



Crudblud said:


> Although I don't know how we would be able to avoid it.


Probably all the entries would have to be uploaded onto a single account of soundcloud/youtube. Either just everyone sends them to one person and he/she upload them, or we create a sort of communal account. The former sounds to me easier as someone not too great with techy stuff.



jani said:


> Do we have to write in certain't form?


Don't know



jani said:


> If we chose a solo piano piece as the first composition can we Write a Rondo?Prelude? Polonaise? Sonata/sonatina if we want?
> Or do we chose a form?


Ok. Well, assuming the solo piano first piece goes ahead, I would suggest being able to choose a form. It allows much greater freedom.


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## beetzart

Yeah, I'd be interested in this, count me in, please.


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## jani

Ramako said:


> Agreed - thanks for the excellent idea
> 
> Probably all the entries would have to be uploaded onto a single account of soundcloud/youtube. Either just everyone sends them to one person and he/she upload them, or we create a sort of communal account. The former sounds to me easier as someone not too great with techy stuff.
> 
> Don't know
> 
> Ok. Well, assuming the solo piano first piece goes ahead, I would suggest being able to choose a form. It allows much greater freedom.


Ok, i am in too! Would 2weeks-1 month would be a good time limit for a composition?


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## Ramako

OK it looks like this has enough support to go through !



jani said:


> Ok, i am in too! Would 2weeks-1 month would be a good time limit for a composition?


Roughly a two week time limit might be best? - no need to overdo it, but everyone has to have enough time.


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## Klavierspieler

Count me in. 

I do recommend using scores, though.


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## BurningDesire

Klavierspieler said:


> I do recommend using scores, though.


Why? I don't think everybody on the forum could read them, and we're trying to have it be anonymous for the voting.


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## jalex

BurningDesire said:


> Why? I don't think everybody on the forum could read them, and we're trying to have it be anonymous for the voting.


i think it's a good idea because MIDI often doesn't give great realisations, and following the score and using some imagination while listening makes up for that somewhat.


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## BurningDesire

jalex said:


> Because MIDI often doesn't give great realisations. Following the score and using some imagination while listening makes up for that somewhat.


MIDI piano doesn't sound that bad.


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## jalex

BurningDesire said:


> MIDI piano doesn't sound that bad.


Mmm. But MIDI realisations on the programme I use don't crescendo or decrescendo well, don't allow different dynamics for different voices on the same stave, don't realise ornaments etc. And if this does become a regular thing, I assume not all the works will be for piano. MIDI string quartets are vile, and god forbid we should ever try to write a work for voice(s)...


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## Ramako

Deadline of Friday August 31st?



Klavierspieler said:


> I do recommend using scores, though.


Clearly something requiring some thought, agreement and perhaps compromise



BurningDesire said:


> we're trying to have it be anonymous for the voting.


_If_ we use scores then they could be anonymous which would resolve that problem.



jalex said:


> Mmm. But MIDI realisations on the programme I use don't crescendo or decrescendo well, don't allow different dynamics for different voices on the same stave, don't realise ornaments etc.


I tend to write ornaments in if I want them to be heard, however the point that you raise generally is a good one. MIDI realizations tend to sound bad. I am very used to them, but often when I play my compositions to others they comment on the awful sounds (hopefully not referring to my writing ). However, there is no way around this that I can see for sounds and...



BurningDesire said:


> I don't think everybody on the forum could read them,


Many could, but of course we don't want to exclude those who might not. Really the issue is, though, if we want to make this a public voting scheme, then we can't expect members of the forum not involved to go through each entry looking at the score making a scholarly judgement. It is quite enough for them to have to listen to however many entries anyway. I am assuming we are using the method I suggested at the beginning of posting all the compositions on a thread (perhaps with a poll) and asking TC members to judge.

Some enthusiastic members, however, may want to judge by scores. But how? For conventional compositions this is fine (spotting parallel fifths, harmonic progressions etc.) but for more modern ones... I am not so sure it is helpful. I can't help noticing it is the more avant-garde members who are against scores. I think I am on their side here, but to tell the truth, I don't see how it makes much difference either way: I don't think they will be used particularly, and I don't see much harm in them. Of course they could be made available for other composers' interest afterwards...


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## jalex

I thought we meant use scores alongside MIDI? Posting scores could be optional of course. 'Scholarly judgement' I can't see being much of an issue; if I can't hear it it isn't important, if I can hear it then I don't need the score to help me find it. I'm not going to trawl through anyone's scores looking for consecutive fifths or unprepared dissonances.


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## BurningDesire

Ramako said:


> I can't help noticing it is the more avant-garde members who are against scores.


Actually most of my music isn't particularly "avant-garde" most of it is tonal, actually


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## Ramako

jalex said:


> I thought we meant use scores alongside MIDI? Posting scores could be optional of course.


I meant that, sorry if it didn't come across.



jalex said:


> if I can't hear it it isn't important, if I can hear it then I don't need the score to help me find it. I'm not going to trawl through anyone's scores looking for consecutive fifths or unprepared dissonances.


I'm struggling to see why we should post them in that case, since you more or less indicated they are unnecessary. On the other hand, I have yet to see a good reason articulated why they shouldn't be posted.

I don't have a strong opinion here. I am not sure about optional posting of scores, as it could lead to bias...


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## BurningDesire

Ramako said:


> I meant that, sorry if it didn't come across.
> 
> I'm struggling to see why we should post them in that case, since you more or less indicated they are unnecessary. On the other hand, I have yet to see a good reason articulated why they shouldn't be posted.
> 
> I don't have a strong opinion here. I am not sure about optional posting of scores, as it could lead to bias...


Well what if a composer doesn't compose using proper notational scores? I also think its kinda silly if people are digging through scores to look for parallel 5ths and 4ths and octaves (many times those are there on purpose, nowadays, and they don't really hurt a piece). I think the music should be judged as it is heard alone. That is what is most important.


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## Klavierspieler

How about we just make scores optional?


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## BurningDesire

Klavierspieler said:


> How about we just make scores optional?


It could lead to biases.


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## Crudblud

I'm pretty sure I'm the only composer (or music maker, if the following disqualifies me as a composer by whatever arbitrary definition we have decided on) here who can't read/write scores, and I have no problem admitting that nor being the only person to not submit one. If there is a bias against me because of that, it would not be the first time. And now I suppose people will be up in arms about this supposed deficiency, and probably quite a few would suggest that I am not qualified to enter such a competition. I don't mind either way.


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## aleazk

Crudblud said:


> I'm pretty sure I'm the only composer (or music maker, if the following disqualifies me as a composer by whatever arbitrary definition we have decided on) here who can't read/write scores, and I have no problem admitting that nor being the only person to not submit one. If there is a bias against me because of that, it would not be the first time. And now I suppose people will be up in arms about this supposed deficiency, and probably quite a few would suggest that I am not qualified to enter such a competition. I don't mind either way.


As BD says, the important thing is how the music sounds. Music is sound, not marks on a paper.


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## Crudblud

I quite agree, I'm just explaining that I don't mind if everyone but me posts a score. Assuming we do decide to make it optional.


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## nicecomposer

I can read and write music notation, but not very intuitively, and it's a pain. I would prefer scores being optional


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## jani

If you are gonna use a midi file i suggest that you download this VST, it sounds better than normal midi keyboard.
Here is a small sample how it sounds ( OFC you can mix the sound too)
This is just a sample so you can see how it sounds THIS IS NOT for the competition.




Here is the official preview vid.




Its 100% free and don't worry you don't get any computer germs or anything, i have downloaded lots of VST instruments from this guys website.
Here is a link for the download
http://www.dskmusic.com/dsk-akoustik-keyz


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## BurningDesire

Crudblud said:


> I'm pretty sure I'm the only composer (or music maker, if the following disqualifies me as a composer by whatever arbitrary definition we have decided on) here who can't read/write scores, and I have no problem admitting that nor being the only person to not submit one. If there is a bias against me because of that, it would not be the first time. And now I suppose people will be up in arms about this supposed deficiency, and probably quite a few would suggest that I am not qualified to enter such a competition. I don't mind either way.


Anybody who would discount you as a composer because of that is an idiot.


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## jani

I can provide a score but i don't see why would have to submit one, the only reason i can think for that is that we are having a " The most beautiful score" as a sub category.


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## Crudblud

BurningDesire said:


> Anybody who would discount you as a composer because of that is an idiot.


Yes, but I speak from experience.


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## BurningDesire

jani said:


> I can provide a score but i don't see why would have to submit one, the only reason i can think for that is that we are having a " The most beautiful score" as a sub category.


The score itself is somewhat of an art too. There are some scores that are just amazing to look at, particularly things like George Crumb's symbol scores (and even his regular ones, with all of his clever, inventive notation), and some of those Ars Nova pieces where the staff is drawn in a shape connected to the text of the music.


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## jani

BurningDesire said:


> The score itself is somewhat of an art too. There are some scores that are just amazing to look at, particularly things like George Crumb's symbol scores (and even his regular ones, with all of his clever, inventive notation), and some of those Ars Nova pieces where the staff is drawn in a shape connected to the text of the music.


Yea i know music looks beautiful on paper, i used to wrote music scores on my vocational schools art class , but if this is a composition competition the main thing should be the music.


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## Ramako

Given the above obviously scores are not compulsory. Whether optional or not remains to be seen.

Even if it is optional I probably won't be submitting a score.


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## TrazomGangflow

Great idea. I just wish I were a better composer.


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## Ramako

TrazomGangflow said:


> Great idea. I just wish I were a better composer.


You may win


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## Crudblud

And even if you don't win, you'll surely gain valuable experience with each competition.


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## juergen

Now the most important question: Will there be a prize to be won?


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## jalex

Scores were only suggested as a method of better allowing the music to be communicated, but if no-one wants to post them we can of course manage without them.


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## jalex

aleazk said:


> As BD says, the important thing is how the music sounds. Music is sound, not marks on a paper.


And how do you think the composer communicates the sound he wants to hear? A performer interprets his intentions from a score. A MIDI realisation is not a performance, and there is no interpreting going on beyond how the software is programmed to output sets of symbols.

I really think people got the wrong idea with the scores business. We didn't want them so we could gleefully put red marks next to everyone who accidentally wrote inappropriate parallel fifths (and as someone else pointed out, in many situations these are now perfectly acceptable anyway). They're communication aids.



Crudblud said:


> I'm pretty sure I'm the only composer (or music maker, if the following disqualifies me as a composer by whatever arbitrary definition we have decided on) here who can't read/write scores, and I have no problem admitting that nor being the only person to not submit one. If there is a bias against me because of that, it would not be the first time. And now I suppose people will be up in arms about this supposed deficiency, and probably quite a few would suggest that I am not qualified to enter such a competition. I don't mind either way.


Is there a particular reason you can't read or use musical notation? Does the music you usually write use non-standard notation, or something like that? Because it does strike as unusual that a composer would not make an effort to learn to write music; you call it a 'supposed deficiency' but I can only see it as a _real_ deficiency (not in a perjorative sense) since it must make keeping track of and organising ideas very difficult.


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## aleazk

jalex said:


> And how do you think the composer communicates the sound he wants to hear? A performer interprets his intentions from a score. A MIDI realisation is not a performance, and there is no interpreting going on beyond how the software is programmed to output sets of symbols.


lol, you speak like as if I had done some 'anti-score crusade'!. I have only said that, at the end, what counts is the sound when judging a composition. I'm not denying, under any circumstances, the utility of musical notation, which I use and recommend.


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## Crudblud

jalex said:


> Is there a particular reason you can't read or use musical notation? Does the music you usually write use non-standard notation, or something like that? Because it does strike as unusual that a composer would not make an effort to learn to write music; you call it a 'supposed deficiency' but I can only see it as a real deficiency (not in a perjorative sense) since it must make keeping track of and organising ideas very difficult.


I'll explain my history in terms of making music. My very first encounter with actually writing music was using a piece of software that could write in standard and tablature notations; as I had been playing guitar for a little while the tablature system of numbers for pitch and letters for "strings" (for non-string instruments it simply denoted the open note value) made sense to me, and I found I could write that way. Later on, a friend introduced me to piano roll notation with a piece of software called Reason, which was even easier, and it produced far more realistic sounds. More recently I've been using the same kind of notation in Cubase, but now I can create semi-realistic sounding music thanks to VST instruments, which is good enough for me. I also record music with my own instruments and am quite experienced in audio editing. More often than not, I simply use piano roll, but really it depends on what I'm making it for.

I should say that I have no pretence about being a composer of classical music, because that is what I'm not. I'm too stubborn and not practical enough for study, so I had to go about doing things my own way, and for better or worse that is how I continue to operate. If this is going to cause problems for people then I'd rather just bow out of the proceedings than be the cause of any vitriolic arguments, this place has been too warlike lately.


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## jalex

I can't see why it should cause problems, I was just curious.


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## Crudblud

Well, I wasn't referring to you specifically, I understand you were just asking. Mainly I'm just speaking from experience, my lack of formal education has caused arguments and strong criticism from more conservative types in the past, not here but certainly elsewhere.


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## Ramako

aleazk said:


> lol, you speak like as if I had done some 'anti-score crusade'!. I have only said that, at the end, what counts is the sound when judging a composition. I'm not denying, under any circumstances, the utility of musical notation, which I use and recommend.


In fairness there were a fair amount of anti-score remarks made - he is responding to them as an advocate of them being posted here which is fine. Still, I think a little bit too much emphasis has been laid on this question. I don't want to post mine because I don't want people staring at something which tells them what is about to happen in 10 seconds time.

There are a couple of questions to be answered, which are, however, much more important and a little more urgent.

1. First and foremost this is a piano piece. ANY OTHER RESTRICTIONS? I would propose none except perhaps a time limit of 5 minutes? (maybe more?)

2. Judging - I suppose we shall open a new thread upon which all the entries (with or without scores) are posted. Here I assume everyone shall be able to vote. If so, then shall we post it here or in the main section where people are more likely to look? Should it be done as a poll, or can people order them or put their favourite three or something? Also, should people taking part be able to vote?

3. Submissions - I propose that this is open to anyone and any submission subject to the conditions up until the deadline which for the time being stands at Friday 31st of August. So, how are they submitted?


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## Crudblud

Ordering or the favourite three might work best. I suspect we'd have to use them eventually anyway, with polls having the option limit and all.


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## nicecomposer

so what are the requirements


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## TrazomGangflow

Crudblud said:


> And even if you don't win, you'll surely gain valuable experience with each competition.


Very true. A competition will force me to compose in a timely manner and stop procrastinating. It will also help me improve my skills.


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## Ramako

nicecomposer said:


> so what are the requirements


A piano piece written and submitted in a method as yet unknown by the 31st August, probably in the region of 5 minutes, or a bit more or less. Perhaps less than 7 minutes (more than 2 or 3)?

Perhaps I should set up a Youtube account to put them up on?


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## jani

Ramako said:


> A piano piece written and submitted in a method as yet unknown by the 31st August, probably in the region of 5 minutes, or a bit more or less. Perhaps less than 7 minutes (more than 2 or 3)?
> 
> Perhaps I should set up a Youtube account to put them up on?


10 minute max would be good, i can't squeeze a piano sonata on 7 mins.


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## nicecomposer

So we don't have to write the piece in any particular form? 

It might be easier to create a group soundcloud account, since the upload times are much shorter.


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## Ramako

nicecomposer said:


> So we don't have to write the piece in any particular form?


no



jani said:


> 10 minute max would be good, i can't squeeze a piano sonata on 7 mins.


It doesn't have to be a full blown sonata, multi-movement and all. I guess you could go over 7 minutes, but remember you are writing for an audience which probably has time-constraints. They may not feel so kindly towards a longer work. But then again they may. So if you want a ten minute max, then that is probably alright if you feel a longer work suits your strengths better. I would say 5 minutes as a guideline is good however.


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## Ramako

I posted some questions up earlier, only some of which have been addressed.



Crudblud said:


> Ordering or the favourite three might work best. I suspect we'd have to use them eventually anyway, with polls having the option limit and all.


I agree. Not sure which though.

The submission question is the biggest problem:



nicecomposer said:


> It might be easier to create a group soundcloud account, since the upload times are much shorter.


Until recently soundcloud did not work on my browser. I don't know if this is might be a problem for other members. (my browser is/was awful). Is a group account possible? How does it work?

Also, if there are going to be future competitions, how are we going to decide what instrumentation/form/time etc. they are going to be in? It would be helpful to have some kind of order.


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## contra7

I've got one question! Ok, we have 10 minutes maximum limit for piece, but will there be a minimum limit (1-2 min, even 3)?

Edit: I'm asking this because I rather prefer shorter works when composing (and even when listening because concentration sometimes leaves me  )


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## Ramako

contra7 said:


> I've got one question! Ok, we have 10 minutes maximum limit for piece, but will there be a minimum limit (1-2 min, even 3)?
> 
> Edit: I'm asking this because I rather prefer shorter works when composing (and even when listening because concentration sometimes leaves me  )


For proper comparison to be made, I think a minimum of 2 minutes probably ought to be imposed. Just so that the entries aren't wildly different beasts


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## jani

I have a wild idea, if anyone doesn't have anything against it.
We should make a YT account for this competition and upload the music on that account.
If we do this like once a month or even once in two months, there is a possibility that we get some Subs/fan base.
And the members of this site could use it to spread their work etc...


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## Ramako

jani said:


> I have a wild idea, if anyone doesn't have anything against it.
> We should make a YT account for this competition and upload the music on that account.
> If we do this like once a month or even once in two months, there is a possibility that we get some Subs/fan base.
> And the members of this site could use it to spread their work etc...


I think that is a good idea. I like the idea of creating a collection of the pieces over time  Don't know about soundcloud comparison though...


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## Klavierspieler

jani said:


> I have a wild idea, if anyone doesn't have anything against it.
> We should make a YT account for this competition and upload the music on that account.
> If we do this like once a month or even once in two months, there is a possibility that we get some Subs/fan base.
> And the members of this site could use it to spread their work etc...


And we'll all get rich and famous!


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## jani

Klavierspieler said:


> And we'll all get rich and famous!


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## Ramako

Do you want to set up a Youtube account then jani, or shall I?

I think we shall need a password which is not accessable by anybody, but by every member submitting compositions. For this we'll need a list, and then we can distribute it accordingly.


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## jani

You can do it.


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## Ramako

jani said:


> You can do it.




ok though, I will


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## WavesOfParadox

I'm totally up for this!


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## Crudblud

So then, I guess we just need to work out what we're doing as regards voting.


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## nicecomposer

we could start a thread, and each person can say who they think should win 1st, 2nd, and 3rd. 1st, 2nd, and 3rd could be worth 3 points, 2 points, and 1 point, respectively, then we add up who got the most points.


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## Crudblud

I was thinking along those lines, good idea, I think. I think Ramako should perhaps have final say, it was his idea, after all.

And now where to post the thread. As Ramako has said, there's a distinct possibility that posting the thread here will not attract much attention from the outside.


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## Ramako

Crudblud said:


> I was thinking along those lines, good idea, I think. I think Ramako should perhaps have final say, it was his idea, after all.


Mwhahahahaha!!!! :devil:

EDIT: I assume you mean I sit here with excel or something and add up the scores, which I'm all up for 



Crudblud said:


> And now where to post the thread. As Ramako has said, there's a distinct possibility that posting the thread here will not attract much attention from the outside.


The problem is it sort of belongs here - after all it is about us composers. Posted in the normal place it might just get moved here. Perhaps I should ask the mods to let us post it in the main area?


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## Crudblud

Ramako said:


> The problem is it sort of belongs here - after all it is about us composers. Posted in the normal place it might just get moved here. Perhaps I should ask the mods to let us post it in the main area?


Good idea. If the answer is no, I suppose advertising the competition via signature might not be a bad idea.


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## TrazomGangflow

I am still confused about entry. Have we made a conclusion on how to enter our piece?


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## PetrB

Scores are expected in Comp Competitions for any work meant to be played by musicians from score, UNLESS the work is 'electronic' - i.e. audio assemblage, or a recorded 'set' improvisatory piece (EX: I've done, in the past, one suite for solo midi piano, a 'player piano' piece.)

Categories are often by instrumentation, and length (duration) is always also one of the qualifying parameters.

The 'classical' 'modern' distinction is / should be moot. Earnestly intended music is just that, regardless of 'style.' If you're writing in a style of classical model or neo-classical, tonal minimalist or anything else, those are merely the vocabulary of that piece.

Form, from what I have seen, has never been a part of any composition competition. Form is always up to the composer.

Format (concertino for solo instrument 'X') and a certain number of instruments, those instrumental forces sometimes specifically designated as to type and number, is most often part of the parameters for competitions.

Solo piano pieces are a good and 'simple' start. 
It was Milton Babbitt, of "Who cares if you listen?" notoriety, who also said, "Most of my students could not write a simple piano piece."

So - "A simple piano piece" might be a good enough challenge / category (the fact I've got a few 'simple' pedagogic piano pieces in the works at the moment having nothing whatsoever to do with this particular recommendation


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## Ramako

I have created a Youtube account. It took me ages because I put my birthday as 2006 first time, and it told me I was too young, and it was this evening before it would let me create an account . On the upside, I have been able to create an account where I could answer the "gender" question with "other" 

I will pm anyone who has posted on this thread who I thought might be interested this evening. You will have to reply to this with a confirmation or declination of participation - but this does not have to be done now. If you say you will take part I will send you the password and you will be able to log in - everyone will have to be responsible.

IF YOU DO NOT POST HERE OR PM ME YOU CANNOT TAKE PART.


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## Ramako

PetrB said:


> Scores are expected in Comp Competitions for any work meant to be played by musicians from score, UNLESS the work is 'electronic' - i.e. audio assemblage, or a recorded 'set' improvisatory piece (EX: I've done, in the past, one suite for solo midi piano, a 'player piano' piece.)


No scores, or optional ones here at the most.



PetrB said:


> The 'classical' 'modern' distinction is / should be moot. Earnestly intended music is just that, regardless of 'style.' If you're writing in a style of classical model or neo-classical, tonal minimalist or anything else, those are merely the vocabulary of that piece.
> 
> Format (concertino for solo instrument 'X') and a certain number of instruments, those instrumental forces sometimes specifically designated as to type and number, is most often part of the parameters for competitions.


Yes



PetrB said:


> So - "A simple piano piece" might be a good enough challenge / category (the fact I've got a few 'simple' pedagogic piano pieces in the works at the moment having nothing whatsoever to do with this particular recommendation


Crudblud :tiphat: suggested this at the beginning - not sure if you read it. Any piece is welcome, even if it is pre-written  but 'simple' is not part of the description. I myself intend to enter a fugue in 8-parts  (joking - I'm not, that would not be anonymous any longer )


----------



## BurningDesire

Don't really see why it would be a no. If we can have stupid crap like the "Top 50 Greatest of all Time" list, why not this?


----------



## Ramako

OK messages sent.

Now on the really nitty gritty adminy type stuff. Should I reply immediately with the password to everyone? Or should we wait until some specified date on which everyone can upload them? If the latter, when?

The former makes more sense I think, but whatever. I do think however that we must be careful about when we actually upload the pieces, regardless of passwords. If someone uploaded it tomorrow,say, and posted here saying "hooray finished" that would give the game away a little.


----------



## Crudblud

I don't know, a few days before the deadline?

Also, are we going to have the pieces for each competition in playlists?


----------



## Couchie

I want the password.


----------



## Ramako

Crudblud said:


> Also, are we going to have the pieces for each competition in playlists?


I suppose so yeah.

I'll keep the password to myself for the time being then, until closer to the deadline.


----------



## Ramako

Thanks to everyone who has replied to my message so far.

I thought a good time to give out the passwords would be Monday the 27th of August. That gives people a working week to submit, and the password could be changed on Saturday September the 1st perhaps to mark the deadline.

At some point - perhaps the Saturday? - we should make the thread where links to all the entries will be posted. Now there are one or two more things we need to clear up.

1. Uploading. When the password is distributed, everyone is free to make the submission whenever they like before the deadline up to and including Friday 31st of August.

2. Picture. I would suggest that everyone is free to choose whatever picture they like for their submission - but that it has to be a static one, and that it has to be the same one throughout, so that it doesn't influence anybody's choice. Also it of course shouldn't be a picture which would give away the identity of the composer (e.g. Caspar David Friedrich's wanderer for me).

3. Name. Well, either they should be called entry 1,2,3 etc. which would be boring, or again a name can be chosen which would not give away any identities, which could either be something suiting the piece, or "sonatina in ___" or whatever.

4. Description. I don't know much about Youtube as I pretend to live in the 18th century most of the time. However here identity is most likely to be given away in a description. I thought that we might come up with some pre-determined blurb about it being a TC competition etc. However some people may wish to write one or two notes about the piece. This could be done as well. Again I'm not sure.

5. Scores. We need a final decision on whether to make these optional or not.



Crudblud said:


> Also, are we going to have the pieces for each competition in playlists?


I think this is a good idea as well.


----------



## Crudblud

Maybe we should take optional scores to a vote?


----------



## WavesOfParadox

I never got the PM...


----------



## Klavierspieler

Crudblud said:


> Maybe we should take optional scores to a vote?


I'm starting to stop caring. I just realized that I'm too lazy to typeset anything.


----------



## Klavierspieler

Ramako said:


> 1. Uploading. When the password is distributed, everyone is free to make the submission whenever they like before the deadline up to and including Friday 31st of August.
> 
> 2. Picture. I would suggest that everyone is free to choose whatever picture they like for their submission - but that it has to be a static one, and that it has to be the same one throughout, so that it doesn't influence anybody's choice. Also it of course shouldn't be a picture which would give away the identity of the composer (e.g. Caspar David Friedrich's wanderer for me).


All sounds good to me.



> 3. Name. Well, either they should be called entry 1,2,3 etc. which would be boring, or again a name can be chosen which would not give away any identities, which could either be something suiting the piece, or "sonatina in ___" or whatever.


I strongly suggest the latter. The former could be confusing to some.



> 4. Description. I don't know much about Youtube as I pretend to live in the 18th century most of the time. However here identity is most likely to be given away in a description. I thought that we might come up with some pre-determined blurb about it being a TC competition etc. However some people may wish to write one or two notes about the piece. This could be done as well. Again I'm not sure.


No idea.



> 5. Scores. We need a final decision on whether to make these optional or not.


I don't care anymore.


----------



## Crudblud

Klavierspieler said:


> I'm starting to stop caring. I just realized that I'm too lazy to typeset anything.


That's the spirit!


----------



## Ramako

Crudblud said:


> Maybe we should take optional scores to a vote?


Good idea - how do we do it?

EDIT: If anyone does care and wants to have the ability to post a score up please say so. Simpler. Then we can vote if necessary.


----------



## Ramako

WavesOfParadox said:


> I never got the PM...


Sorry, about to send one.


----------



## Crudblud

Can anyone tell me how to make a video that is simply a still image and an audio track? I have very limited experience with video editing software, and none that I have tried so far seem to have this kind of functionality. I know we're still quite some time away from the entry date, but I would like to know now so that I'm not scrabbling around at the last minute.


----------



## BurningDesire

I'm making headway on my piece :3


----------



## jani

I just finished my piece.


----------



## Ramako

Crudblud said:


> Can anyone tell me how to make a video that is simply a still image and an audio track? I have very limited experience with video editing software, and none that I have tried so far seem to have this kind of functionality. I know we're still quite some time away from the entry date, but I would like to know now so that I'm not scrabbling around at the last minute.


If you try to post a sound file on Youtube, it doesn't allow you to, but then gives you some help on how to make a video file from a sound one on mac and windows. That's how I figured it.


----------



## Crudblud

Alright, thanks.


----------



## jani

I need to write a new piece, the piece that i wrote is full of ****!


----------



## Huilunsoittaja

Guess what I made my first decent composition, 1:35 long!

And by decent I mean I broke theory for aesthetic purposes.


----------



## PetrB

If it does not have a score it is 'an improvisation,' with which there is nothing wrong, but it is then an improvised piece, not, technically a composed piece. The most avant garde of composers are used to producing scores, though the scores themselves may be non-conventional notation.

If you want it to be a 'composition' contest, then scores. The one exception being there are often no scores for 'sound art' or electronically generated pieces. There is no need, the 'performance' being a set playback.

Two weeks is a ridiculously short time for anyone to compose anything, including 'just a short little piano piece.' The fact many members have very full academic / work obligations and are not 'just sitting at home with inspiration, a pen, and score paper' should be considered.

Naming a form is pretty much 'over': naming a length requirement, minimum - maximum running time, is common and expected. Instrument, instrumentation is also a common parameter of composition contests.

Whatever 'style' people are composing in 'classical' vs. something else -- if it is written now or lately -- _is contemporary_, and the music has to stand on its own in a competition, or it is not a real 'competition.'

I would naturally expect a score. I would hope enough people can at least play their funky spinet, upright piano (or some one's funky real piano) and record the piece on that vs. the bloodless flat-line dead quantize and tinny / rubbery sounds of midi piano, the cheesy squeaks of Garriton, etc.

But, people have what they have. I would think a recording of a piece on an acoustic instrument(s) would have a much greater edge over an equally good piece rendered in cheesy midi samples, and that is a very real factor to take into consideration.

It is likely there may need to be one competition to further demonstrate their ought to be some other 'fair' categorical divisions: the forum has neophyte conservatory students writing near model academic 'classical' music, amateurs whose works are much more fluent and 'advanced' than conservatory student work, and everything beyond, behind and in between. The variety of fare and variety of competence might be a wild flux of discrepancies, and scream a need for 'categorization' by level of ability.

Whatever comes of it, I am at the least curious and most looking forward to hear / see what others have made.


----------



## nicecomposer

are we supposed to have the password yet?


----------



## Klavierspieler

nicecomposer said:


> are we supposed to have the password yet?


No. Probably around the 28th from what I've heard.


----------



## Klavierspieler

PetrB said:


> If it does not have a score it is 'an improvisation,' with which there is nothing wrong, but it is then an improvised piece, not, technically a composed piece. The most avant garde of composers are used to producing scores, though the scores themselves may be non-conventional notation.
> 
> If you want it to be a 'composition' contest, then scores. The one exception being there are often no scores for 'sound art' or electronically generated pieces. There is no need, the 'performance' being a set playback.


This is true. However, this is a very informal thing. We aren't too worried about this.



> Two weeks is a ridiculously short time for anyone to compose anything, including 'just a short little piano piece.' The fact many members have very full academic / work obligations and are not 'just sitting at home with inspiration, a pen, and score paper' should be considered.


I don't see this. If I work for 15 minutes a day and produce ten bars of music, then at the end of the period I will have over a hundred bars, plenty for a short piano piece.



> Naming a form is pretty much 'over': naming a length requirement, minimum - maximum running time, is common and expected. Instrument, instrumentation is also a common parameter of composition contests.


I don't see why we couldn't pick a form, although we haven't for this round. As I said above, we're really just doing our own thing, whatever we reach a consensus on. We aren't worried about this being a formal 'competition'.



> I would hope enough people can at least play their funky spinet, upright piano (or some one's funky real piano) and record the piece on that vs. the bloodless flat-line dead quantize and tinny / rubbery sounds of midi piano, the cheesy squeaks of Garriton, etc.
> 
> But, people have what they have. I would think a recording of a piece on an acoustic instrument(s) would have a much greater edge over an equally good piece rendered in cheesy midi samples, and that is a very real factor to take into consideration.


This is something I was worried about. I had an idea, though. If anyone wants to, they can send their score to me and I will try to play it for them, provided it isn't too difficult.



> It is likely there may need to be one competition to further demonstrate their ought to be some other 'fair' categorical divisions: the forum has neophyte conservatory students writing near model academic 'classical' music, amateurs whose works are much more fluent and 'advanced' than conservatory student work, and everything beyond, behind and in between. The variety of fare and variety of competence might be a wild flux of discrepancies, and scream a need for 'categorization' by level of ability.


You're right, that could be a problem, but I'm not sure that there is enough participation to split us up. Do we want to just see how this round turns out and then categorize if we have to?



> Whatever comes of it, I am at the least curious and most looking forward to hear / see what others have made.


Thank you for your input! :tiphat:


----------



## BurningDesire

PetrB said:


> If it does not have a score it is 'an improvisation,' with which there is nothing wrong, but it is then an improvised piece, not, technically a composed piece. The most avant garde of composers are used to producing scores, though the scores themselves may be non-conventional notation.







The rest is pretty reasonable though. (Though I disagree on the stance against sampled and synthesized versions of acoustic instruments. I'd much rather hear a nice sampled piano than a crappy, out of tune, sounds like the soundboard is made of aluminum foil upright piano.)


----------



## Crudblud

PetrB said:


> I would naturally expect a score. I would hope enough people can at least play their funky spinet, upright piano (or some one's funky real piano) and record the piece on that vs. the bloodless flat-line dead quantize and tinny / rubbery sounds of midi piano, the cheesy squeaks of Garriton, etc.


Oh no! Guess I'll have to withdraw my entry just so I don't offend *you.*


----------



## chopinsky

Sounds like an interesting project. Perhaps the piece should have a limit in its length?


----------



## Crudblud

I believe there already is a limit, or more of a guideline, of five minutes.


----------



## Ramako

Sorry for what is bound to be a lengthy and time-consuming post.

^^^^^^
Quite so, Crudblud.



PetrB said:


> If it does not have a score it is 'an improvisation,' with which there is nothing wrong, but it is then an improvised piece, not, technically a composed piece. The most avant garde of composers are used to producing scores, though the scores themselves may be non-conventional notation.


@PetrB. Your opinions vis-a-vis scores are noted, however it is worth bearing in mind the method of _judgement_. We are not judging this via a set of hopefully intelligent and learned panel of judges, but rather setting the entries before all the members of TC in what will hopefully be a fun contest. Most members of TC are not going to take the time to look at scores even if they can read them.

By this method of judgement, certain matters are perhaps neglected, more academic ones, but the quality of the music as heard (which is surely more important) is as judged by the members of TC. What's more, there are several further points to consider: non-standard notation, which, being non-standard, few people will be able to read, making the posting of the score pointless: pedantic rule-spotting, some members are bound to find a parallel fifth and instantly ban the piece from their considerations. The most important point is that this is music as judged as _sound_, without caring a jot for what the score looks like. My score, in the process of composition, has many ugly marks written on it so that it will sound nicer when played as a midi file. I could hide them if I wanted, but that's beside the point.

On improvisation, if someone can improvise a piece better than someone else can compose it then bully for them, and they could easily write it down just afterwards anyway to make it 'proper'.



PetrB said:


> Two weeks is a ridiculously short time for anyone to compose anything, including 'just a short little piano piece.' The fact many members have very full academic / work obligations and are not 'just sitting at home with inspiration, a pen, and score paper' should be considered.


That is a reasonable point. I was thinking if this will be a monthly contest then obviously people will, in future, have a month to write the piece, provided we know what piece is to be submitted, for This is only a piano piece, and an introduction, so the time is shorter. It also gets things going in a time in which many people have holidays. Besides, it is an optional contest, but I for one am glad to write a piano piece, because it is a piano piece written, even if it is for this competition, and is thus another composition under my belt. Amateurs, professionals, and aspiring professionals alike can use the experience, fun and after all it is another composition written, whether it is for the contest or not.



PetrB said:


> Naming a form is pretty much 'over': naming a length requirement, minimum - maximum running time, is common and expected. Instrument, instrumentation is also a common parameter of composition contests.
> 
> Whatever 'style' people are composing in 'classical' vs. something else -- if it is written now or lately -- _is contemporary_, and the music has to stand on its own in a competition, or it is not a real 'competition.'


Great, but style isn't really an issue. As for form, whether using it is 'over', again it is not really an issue. Perhaps it may be in the future, in which case your opinions are noted.



PetrB said:


> I would naturally expect a score. I would hope enough people can at least play their funky spinet, upright piano (or some one's funky real piano) and record the piece on that vs. the bloodless flat-line dead quantize and tinny / rubbery sounds of midi piano, the cheesy squeaks of Garriton, etc.
> 
> But, people have what they have. I would think a recording of a piece on an acoustic instrument(s) would have a much greater edge over an equally good piece rendered in cheesy midi samples, and that is a very real factor to take into consideration.


The midi thing is an issue. However, if in future we do something for a full orchestra (just hypothetically), I think we may run into problems on this score (pun intended).



Klavierspieler said:


> This is something I was worried about. I had an idea, though. If anyone wants to, they can send their score to me and I will try to play it for them, provided it isn't too difficult.


Thanks for the kind offer Klavierspieler. This is something we're really going to need an agreement on, because as I've said, this only really applies to this round, and perhaps some others for very small forces, barring some exceptions. In some sense it makes sense to only allow computer-sounds, because someone on a real instrument will have a very real advantage. Even then, there are computer-sounds and computer-sounds. I do think there needs to be some consensus on this.



PetrB said:


> It is likely there may need to be one competition to further demonstrate their ought to be some other 'fair' categorical divisions: the forum has neophyte conservatory students writing near model academic 'classical' music, amateurs whose works are much more fluent and 'advanced' than conservatory student work, and everything beyond, behind and in between. The variety of fare and variety of competence might be a wild flux of discrepancies, and scream a need for 'categorization' by level of ability.


Perhaps this may be necessary, but I hope not. So far there are about 10 people interested, and subdividing this is going to be pointless. Still this is a good thought which we should bear in mind for the future.



PetrB said:


> Whatever comes of it, I am at the least curious and most looking forward to hear / see what others have made.


I am glad to hear it. I'm sorry if I seem negative above, it's just that this competition is really about having some fun, getting together and perhaps learning from others as well. I hope to see you doing some pro judging .

Now.

Lacking any opinions on the matter, it is probably best that we say there be no descriptions on the Youtube videos.

On the voting process, I think it would be a good idea if composers are not allowed to vote for their own works. This helps keep things honest and pleasant.

Unfortunately, I am unable to post the voting thread on Saturday. I am on holiday and have a limited amount of internet access, and posting a series of links to Youtube videos simply isn't going to work on it. I will be able to make it on Sunday 2nd of September/Monday the 3rd. So either I can make it then, or someone else can make it on the Friday/Saturday if they want to.

We are also going to need to decide what the rules for the next competition are going to be. It could be string quartet/orchestra/lied/solo instrument (non-keyboard, like violin) or many other things. I even thought we could try doing things like canons or fugues, although this causes more problems. This is not an urgent matter, but we also need to figure if we are going to pick these things by consensus or some other method.


----------



## Ramako

double post


----------



## jani

Are we gonna use that piano sound simulator i linked? It sounds way better than normal midi piano+ everyone can use it.


----------



## Crudblud

I already have a couple of sampled pianos, so I won't.


----------



## BurningDesire

The piano sound I have to work with isn't bad, so probably not.


----------



## Klavierspieler

The piano I have is very nice, so definitely not.


----------



## juergen

My piece is ready for upload now. I worked really hard on it. :guitar: I just need the account details for the upload.


----------



## jani

Can i post my piece on the 1st day of September, i am not even halfway yet.


----------



## Ramako

jani said:


> Can i post my piece on the 1st day of September, i am not even halfway yet.


Sure . Unless someone else wants to do the thread posting etc., which no one has volunteered yet, then the judging thread will be posted on the 2nd of September, meaning the 1st is open. Quite convenient.

BTW passwords will be coming just as soon as I can remember the username


----------



## Crudblud

Ramako said:


> BTW passwords will be coming just as soon as I can remember the username


I guess it's just as well that scores are optional, seeing how you forget to write things down.


----------



## Ramako

I made a new username...

TCcomposerscompetition2012


----------



## Ramako

Anyone who I haven't sent it to who I should, scream.

Anyone who I have sent it to who I shouldn't, sorry.


----------



## juergen

Thanks for the password. What do you think, should we upload our pieces from now on or would it be better to wait until the deadline? 
BTW: Youtube says that I can not upload. First a channel must be created. Do you do that?


----------



## Crudblud

Why not just call it TCComposers?

Edit: I did it. It's informative and simple. You can all now begin uploading your pieces.


----------



## Ramako

Crudblud said:


> Why not just call it TCComposers?


Because. pointless white text


----------



## Crudblud

Ramako said:


> Because. pointless white text


Oh, I meant the channel name, since for some reason we had to do that before we could upload pieces.

Anyway, three so far, I hope everyone is working hard!


----------



## jani

This might be a stupid question, but can i comment the pieces with my own personal YT account before we start voting?


----------



## Crudblud

I don't see why not.


----------



## Ramako

I pmd Krummhorn about posting it in the main forum. I await the response.

Unless no one objects, in the voting I think a 1st rank vote will give a piece 3 points, a 2nd 2 points, and a 3rd 1 point.

I wondered if there should be a restriction on the amount of time people have to vote, in order to come up with a final set of ranks? Perhaps 2 weeks, or a month?

Also, I thought perhaps we should give some thought to the next competition - so far this one seems to be going well. This time we did a short piano piece - I though I might create a list of all ideas to keep a tab on them. So far I have thought:

A string quartet
An orchestral piece
An unaccompanied piece for a non-keyboard instrument (like a violin, flute or something)
An accompanied piece for a non-keyboard instrument
and more adventurously -
A fugue and/or canon
A theme and variations (where a single theme is chosen and everyone writes a certain number of variations on it)
A choral movement on a set text (perhaps the Gloria or another mass movement as a well-known text for music, or something else).
A song for a set text, or an individually chosen text?

All thoughts welcome - we can decide whether or not they're usable later.


----------



## Crudblud

The voting system sounds fine to me. I think two weeks is probably enough voting time, but I'm not sure if we should see how much attention it gets first, it might be a good idea to say two weeks provisionally but extended if the voting is slow.

My personal favourite of those ideas is the song, though I understand it might be difficult for many to pull off. I also like the string quartet and orchestra ideas, and while I have no idea how to write a fugue, that sounds interesting too.


----------



## jani

Ramako said:


> I pmd Krummhorn about posting it in the main forum. I await the response.
> 
> Unless no one objects, in the voting I think a 1st rank vote will give a piece 3 points, a 2nd 2 points, and a 3rd 1 point.
> 
> I wondered if there should be a restriction on the amount of time people have to vote, in order to come up with a final set of ranks? Perhaps 2 weeks, or a month?
> 
> Also, I thought perhaps we should give some thought to the next competition - so far this one seems to be going well. This time we did a short piano piece - I though I might create a list of all ideas to keep a tab on them. So far I have thought:
> 
> A string quartet
> An orchestral piece
> An unaccompanied piece for a non-keyboard instrument (like a violin, flute or something)
> An accompanied piece for a non-keyboard instrument
> and more adventurously -
> A fugue and/or canon
> A theme and variations (where a single theme is chosen and everyone writes a certain number of variations on it)
> A choral movement on a set text (perhaps the Gloria or another mass movement as a well-known text for music, or something else).
> A song for a set text, or an individually chosen text?
> 
> All thoughts welcome - we can decide whether or not they're usable later.


That sounds good


----------



## BurningDesire

Crudblud said:


> The voting system sounds fine to me. I think two weeks is probably enough voting time, but I'm not sure if we should see how much attention it gets first, it might be a good idea to say two weeks provisionally but extended if the voting is slow.
> 
> My personal favourite of those ideas is the song, though I understand it might be difficult for many to pull off. I also like the string quartet and orchestra ideas, and while I have no idea how to write a fugue, that sounds interesting too.


A song would be fun  I have some ideas~


----------



## jani

Crudblud said:


> The voting system sounds fine to me. I think two weeks is probably enough voting time, but I'm not sure if we should see how much attention it gets first, it might be a good idea to say two weeks provisionally but extended if the voting is slow.
> 
> My personal favourite of those ideas is the song, though I understand it might be difficult for many to pull off. I also like the string quartet and orchestra ideas, and while I have no idea how to write a fugue, that sounds interesting too.


Check out this video


----------



## jani

One of our subjects could be a piece were we all use the same theme like, painting/movie scene or something like that.


----------



## TrazomGangflow

Problem uploading my piece. I used Windows Movie Maker to make a compatable video for Youtube but when I try to publish it (that is what I understand must be done. I am a first time Windows Movie Maker user so I have been reading countless tutorials for my problem and nothing has worked.) An error screen appears that says "YouTube Plug-in" at the top. In the box it says "Failed to upload categories from YouTube. Please Try again later." Help is greatly appreciated because I would like to submit my piece.


----------



## mleghorn

I like the idea. You can count me in.


----------



## Ramako

mleghorn said:


> I like the idea. You can count me in.


Um, do you have a piece? Because it's a short (5 minutesish, or 2-10) piano piece to be submitted before Sunday evening. If you can be ready by then tell me and I'll send you the password. Otherwise you can of course take part in the next round 

Talking of which the song idea seems be popular. Should it be a set text that everyone uses, or an individually chosen text? Any other thoughts?


----------



## Ramako

jani said:


> One of our subjects could be a piece were we all use the same theme like, painting/movie scene or something like that.


Good idea - added to the list!


----------



## Crudblud

Ramako said:


> Talking of which the song idea seems be popular. Should it be a set text that everyone uses, or an individually chosen text? Any other thoughts?


Also, is instrumentation going to be set? For example, will we be restricted to voice and piano or could we write an orchestral song or even something for unusual instrumentation?


----------



## Crudblud

TrazomGangflow said:


> Problem uploading my piece. I used Windows Movie Maker to make a compatable video for Youtube but when I try to publish it (that is what I understand must be done. I am a first time Windows Movie Maker user so I have been reading countless tutorials for my problem and nothing has worked.) An error screen appears that says "YouTube Plug-in" at the top. In the box it says "Failed to upload categories from YouTube. Please Try again later." Help is greatly appreciated because I would like to submit my piece.


What format are you using?


----------



## TrazomGangflow

Crudblud said:


> What format are you using?


The windows movie maker format was a non-YouTube compatable format and from all the tutorials that I read I had to publish it to convert it to wmv.


----------



## Crudblud

TrazomGangflow said:


> The windows movie maker format was a non-YouTube compatable format and from all the tutorials that I read I had to publish it to convert it to wmv.


Yeah, I'm guessing Movie Maker, like many other video and audio editing programs, saves projects rather than rendering a new video each time. Have you tried exporting to AVI? Guaranteed to work, if you haven't sorted it out already.


----------



## Klavierspieler

TrazomGangflow said:


> The windows movie maker format was a non-YouTube compatable format and from all the tutorials that I read I had to publish it to convert it to wmv.


See on the left where it says "Finish Movie" or something like that? Under that, click "save to computer." I think that that's the problem.


----------



## nicecomposer

so when do we vote on these. i thought there would be more entries


----------



## mmsbls

Could someone post the specific rules on voting? Do we vote for our top 3? Top 1? And yes, when does the voting start?


----------



## Crudblud

^Have neither of you actually read the thread?

Ramako is currently waiting for confirmation from Krummhorn, he messaged him recently to get permission to post it in the main forum in order to attract more interest from potential voters.

The voting works like this: voters pick their top three and order them according to their preference, the top spot gets three points, the second two, and the third one.


----------



## Ramako

Crudblud said:


> ^Have neither of you actually read the thread?
> 
> Ramako is currently waiting for confirmation from Krummhorn, he messaged him recently to get permission to post it in the main forum in order to attract more interest from potential voters.
> 
> The voting works like this: voters pick their top three and order them according to their preference, the top spot gets three points, the second two, and the third one.


Thanks again Crudblud.

If I don't get a reply by this evening I will put it on my sig and post it here. Voting rules and stuff will be explained there because everyone needs to know them.

Without naming anyone, there are a few yet to come. The problem with composers and deadlines seems to be perennial.

I hope everyone is excited


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## Ramako

Crudblud said:


> Also, is instrumentation going to be set? For example, will we be restricted to voice and piano or could we write an orchestral song or even something for unusual instrumentation?


I had assumed piano but I guess that might be restrictive. Still there is a big difference between a piano and an orchestra.

I would feel happier if we had heard from more people. Perhaps there is some way of trying to extract opinions from people? I am happy doing the song next but maybe we need to figure some way of making fair choices? Would making a group help? Or a new thread dedicated to the choice of instrumentation/whatever?


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## Crudblud

Personally, I was just asking because I enjoy trying unusual instrumentation.

And yes, I think making a group would help.


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## BurningDesire

Ramako said:


> I had assumed piano but I guess that might be restrictive. Still there is a big difference between a piano and an orchestra.
> 
> I would feel happier if we had heard from more people. Perhaps there is some way of trying to extract opinions from people? I am happy doing the song next but maybe we need to figure some way of making fair choices? Would making a group help? Or a new thread dedicated to the choice of instrumentation/whatever?


Perhaps a poll in the Composer forum? :3 With all the choices a variety of composition forms.


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## nicecomposer

We're using voices? Can anyone here even sing? I will have to use sample library choir voices *shudder*


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## Crudblud

Anyone with functioning vocal chords can sing. What you people need is a bit of the old DIY spirit.


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## Ramako

Crudblud said:


> Anyone with functioning vocal chords can sing. What you people need is a bit of the old DIY spirit.


Ummm. Yes....


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## Crudblud

Ramako said:


> Ummm. Yes....


*sigh* Then I suppose I'm on my own with that idea.


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## Ramako

http://www.talkclassical.com/21189-talkclassical-composers-competition-round.html#post351298


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## Ramako

Crudblud said:


> *sigh* Then I suppose I'm on my own with that idea.


It's not a bad idea - I actually quite like it truth be told. However I know I am an awful singer. Chances are others are too. We don't want to necessarily subject people to my singing.


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## Ramako

Also the Youtube page password has been changed. I'm sorry if this causes problems, as I have 11 people down as participating and there are 9 entries.


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## Ramako

Ok. To clear up the current one: we will need to know which piece is who's in two weeks when the winner and probably runners up shall be announced. Perhaps I should put all the pieces and their scores (points) down as well? I have so far been surprised - a couple of pieces I was next to sure of the authorship seem not to have been written by the people I thought, so I would hesitate guessing the rest. Perhaps everyone should pm me to tell me what they wrote?

Concerning the next competition there are a few things to clear up.

1) Instrumentation. Obviously a voice, but what accompaniment? My immediate reaction to the question is to say that we are limited to one voice, with either a piano or a chamber accompaniment - some small, limited number of instruments. However, some may feel that the accompaniment should be uniform?

2) Words. Should they be set, or everyone choose their own? Either way I suggest they are also written on the Youtube page description.

3) Sound. Here's the serious catch. Either we sing as Crudblud suggests, or we use MIDI (or equivalent) voices, which many would agree is not its strong point. Furthermore we cannot hear any words in a computer version which is a serious issue. On the other hand, some composers may be good singers, and others may not be, creating significant bias. More than that, the piece may stand or fall (perhaps more to the point) on the quality of voice rather than competition. This could be remedied in part I suppose if the song was in more of a comic style for those who are not such good singers.

4) Length? Songs are often under 5 minutes - perhaps this should be the guideline time limit again?


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## jani

Since we made a solo piece the next piece should have free instrumentation etc...
It would allow more freedom also it would bring out our personal styles more etc...


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## Ramako

I have created a new group for the competition. I have invited a few members, but please contact me as well if you think you ought to be in it. To clarify: it is for people who already have taken part in the competition, or intend to do so. It is mostly for the decision-making processes I think, and hopefully getting more competitors to voice their opinions on these matters.


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## aleazk

I don't think the song is a good idea because of the problems about how to record the voice part. Sincerely, I don't know how to sing, so I don't think I will be able to participate in that case, which would be a little unfair since we are judging compositional abilities only. 
I would recommend a piece for a soloist instrument (like flute, violin, voice if you know how to sing, etc) and small accompaniment (like piano, chamber ensemble, etc).


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## Ramako

aleazk said:


> I don't think the song is a good idea because of the problems about how to record the voice part. Sincerely, I don't know how to sing, so I don't think I will be able to participate in that case, which would be a little unfair since we are judging compositional abilities only.
> I would recommend a piece for a soloist instrument (like flute, violin, voice if you know how to sing, etc) and small accompaniment (like piano, chamber ensemble, etc).


I think that this discussion is best moved to the group. It helps keep a tab on the discussion.


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## Ramako

I have been asked the following question by pm



> so where and when do we post our scores?


The score question now returns.

I had an idea that perhaps after the judging is over and the final ranks assigned, and also the composers revealed, we should create a new thread specifically designed for the discussion of these pieces. That would keep the judging thread a little cleaner, and allow us to discuss our pieces in detail. The composers can post scores if they wish, and also I think explain in more detail what they were trying to achieve, how they went about what they did, what they have learned as well as comment and discuss other's works. I have already learnt a few things simply from the judging of my piece, and am thinking over and learning from some of the aspects of the other entries. This can be discussed in much greater detail and the new proposed thread would be the place to do it .


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## jani

if we want to get more views, we must post our vids as a video response to other videos.


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## Crudblud

jani said:


> if we want to get more views, we must post our vids as a video response to other videos.


Why do we need views from outside the site?


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## jani

Crudblud said:


> Why do we need views from outside the site?


We don't need them, but it wouldn't hurt.


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## Ramako

Well, speaking as someone a bit unsure, I suggest we leave it open - posting in response to other videos if we want. I don't see any disadvantages, not that I know anything.


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## Ramako

Round 2 of the TC Composers competition is a piece for solo instrument with accompaniment - 1 solo instrument and 5 accompanying ones entirely of your choice. The time limit is 7 minutes. Anyone interested should pm me or join our group.


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## etkearne

When will the next entries be able to be submitted. I just joined yesterday but I am excited to participate in the competitions of the future. Please fill me in on how things are done here as I am confused on the way you submit, when it is due, what the rules are, etc.

Thanks much in advance!

Evan Kearney


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## jani

Well the deadline for the next piece is 2nd of October, its a piece for solo+ 5 any instruments you want.

Also check out this thread!
http://www.talkclassical.com/groups...ion-d149-tc-composer-competition-round-2.html


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## Ramako

Hi etkearne and welcome to TC 

You should check out the group for specifics. Here is a run-through
http://www.talkclassical.com/groups/tc-composers-competition-d145-basic-rules.html

Most probably you will be too late to submit for this round, however if you are a very fast composer and will be ready in time then pm me and I will give you the password.

Also please feel free to participate in the discussions about the rules for each round, all new ideas are welcome. Mostly we are using instrumentation to limit things, however other good ideas are very welcome as they will make a change.


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## etkearne

Thanks very much for the information. I COULD compose a work by October 2 as I am a very fast composer, but I will just wait so I can see how it works and plays out. I am really looking forward to this.


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## Chrythes

I was wondering - what if you write a piece that is not entirely playable? 
Not deliberately (I hope we are all honest here!), but mistakes or not sufficient knowledge of the instruments that you are writing for? 
Shouldn't sending the scores to someone should be an necessity to check proof (I believe to someone who isn't participating, to maintain competence and honesty)?

Edit: Actually, is there a source where I can understand what are the possibilities of playability of the instruments of the string quartet?


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## etkearne

I would just look up the instrument ranges on Wikipedia (they have a very good and inclusive chart actually) and stick to those. And just use your head as to what the instrument can't do in terms of polyphony and extreme interval jumps at high tempo.


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## Ramako

Given that we have only had 3 entries so far I am going to delay the judging thread being made, and consequently the deadline backwards, provisionally up until tomorrow evening. I am sorry for those who have made the deadline, but 3 entries just seems to be stretching it too far on the thin side. We want more entries not less. There are perhaps issues that we need to deal with.


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## juergen

Yes, I also think that 5 entries should be a minimum. It makes no sense with only 3. I'm a bit surprized since many people seemed to be interested to participate at this round. Perhaps the monthly event of the competition does not work for long. So you should give at least one more week. Or maybe even two more weeks.


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## Ramako

Yes, I have been thinking that we probably need to change the monthly aspect of this as well. I received a good many people's replies saying that they were going to participate this round, a lot more than 3.

I'll wait for more people's opinions before actually doing anything I think.


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## jani

Ramako said:


> Yes, I have been thinking that we probably need to change the monthly aspect of this as well. I received a good many people's replies saying that they were going to participate this round, a lot more than 3.
> 
> I'll wait for more people's opinions before actually doing anything I think.


I have loads of quartets started, but i never finished them because i wasn't happy for them. Writing a string quartet that i like is veyr hard for me. I see what i can come up with this evening.


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## kitaro

Ramako said:


> Yes, I have been thinking that we probably need to change the monthly aspect of this as well. I received a good many people's replies saying that they were going to participate this round, a lot more than 3.
> 
> I'll wait for more people's opinions before actually doing anything I think.


I am interested to participate in your competition, if you can give two more weeks. Would you please tell me how does it work and when is the deadline?


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## Klavierspieler

Ramako said:


> Yes, I have been thinking that we probably need to change the monthly aspect of this as well. I received a good many people's replies saying that they were going to participate this round, a lot more than 3.
> 
> I'll wait for more people's opinions before actually doing anything I think.


I started something recently for string quartet. I think I can have it in a working state within a week.


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## BurningDesire

I'm sorry, I do have something, just been busy, I can post it soon though, probably later tonight.


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## Chopinator

I'd like to participate. Is it still solo + 5 other instruments?


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## Ramako

Chopinator said:


> I'd like to participate. Is it still solo + 5 other instruments?


string quartet now


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## Ramako

kitaro said:


> I am interested to participate in your competition, if you can give two more weeks. Would you please tell me how does it work and when is the deadline?


sorry I should have been clear. When I invited you to the group - there is a rules thread which you should read. That will explain all.


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## Ramako

Well it looks like the deadline should either be set for the end of this coming week, or the one after that.


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## kitaro

Ramako said:


> sorry I should have been clear. When I invited you to the group - there is a rules thread which you should read. That will explain all.


Thank you Ramako. I am not ready for this round. I will participate next round.


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## Klavierspieler

Sorry, I lied. I won't be able to do much of anything besides practice for the next week.


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## juergen

It looks that round 3 can be cancelled. Too bad. I have already withdrawn my piece (Culorile Romaniei).


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## Schubussy

Where can I hear any previous entries? I might give it a go in the future. I'll certainly lose but sounds fun anyway.


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## Lunasong

Round One
Round Two


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## etkearne

So...what is going on with the competition exactly? I posted my piece on YouTube before the due date. Is it cancelled now? That is a shame.


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## jani

etkearne said:


> So...what is going on with the competition exactly? I posted my piece on YouTube before the due date. Is it cancelled now? That is a shame.


We are gonna do Christmas music variations next time!
For example Variations on the theme of Jingle bells.
I suggest that the instrumentation should be 100% free.


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## Ramako

Ok, I have been trying to think of ingenious solutions, but all I can think of is this:

The problem is that we are demanding too much of our contributors too often. This means that people are unable to take part because they are expected to write a whole piece of music in only a month.

Therefore I suggest we change the competition to running every two months (approximately) and I suggest we make the rules less demanding - e.g. instead of a 5 min piece, a 2-3 min piece. Not everyone has that much time to spare, and not everyone writes very quickly. We want to encourage as much participation as possible.

Therefore for the next round specifically I suggest we make the rules a free variation of a Christmas theme with free instrumentation with a guideline length of about 2-3 mins. This is pretty much the existing idea.

I suggest we make the deadline 23rd of December (so that it doesn't actually get in the way of Christmas for anyone hopefully). I will send out the password well in advance. I suggest that the voting deadline should be at the end of the 12 days of Christmas, making this a very Christmasy event!

This also coincides with Christmas holidays for many people. Apologies are due from the TC competition as a whole but especially from me to those few who did submit pieces for round 3 which had to be cancelled. Let's hope we can have better participation in the future!

Any more ideas on increasing participation?


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## juergen

Out of curiosity: Is anybody else working on a piece for the next round of the competition (Christmas theme) or are we three (Ramako, jani and me) the only ones?


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## etkearne

I am unfortunately not going to partake in the Christmas round because I am not familiar with enough Christmas tunes to really get anywhere with it. If someone wants to suggest one for me to work with, I would be happy to give it a go, however.


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## Lunasong

^^You could walk into a store and pick the one they are currently playing on the PA system.

Or pick one of these.
http://www.talkclassical.com/22486-christmas-music.html


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## etkearne

If someone picks one for me, I will do it. But I seriously never listen to Christmas music (I like Christmas though - I am not Ebenezer Scrooge) so I would no know how to narrow it down. You guys know the songs better, so I will trust your judgement. I write neo-classical post-tonal type of music. See my SoundCloud for examples and try to match something for me.


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## Ramako

etkearne said:


> But I seriously never listen to Christmas music (I like Christmas though - I am not Ebenezer Scrooge)


Good clarification!

I will send out the emails near the beginning of December.

But seriously, there are millions of tunes to choose from. You _can_ choose some obscure one if you so wish, but really "We wish you a merry christmas", "Jingle Bells", "Silent Night", "Away in a Manger", "Hark the Herald Angels Sing" etc. etc. are great too. Also I suppose you could put more than one in.


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## etkearne

Ok. ----------- it is. I will start now!

Well this is supposed to be anonymous, so I edited out the name.


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## Ramako

etkearne said:


> Ok. ----------- it is. I will start now!
> 
> Well this is supposed to be anonymous, so I edited out the name.


Haha, yes indeed.


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## juergen

Ramako said:


> But seriously, there are millions of tunes to choose from. You _can_ choose some obscure one if you so wish, but really "We wish you a merry christmas", "Jingle Bells", "Silent Night", "Away in a Manger", "Hark the Herald Angels Sing" etc. etc. are great too. Also I suppose you could put more than one in.


Does it necessarily have to be a variation of an existing Christmas theme? How about composing a new original Christmas theme?


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## Ramako

juergen said:


> Does it necessarily have to be a variation of an existing Christmas theme? How about composing a new original Christmas theme?


I guess it doesn't matter too much as long as it is Christmasy!!!!!


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## etkearne

Alright, it is written. Hopefully you guys will like it. Are we putting them up yet?


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## juergen

etkearne said:


> Alright, it is written.


In one day? I'm very curious!


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## Ramako

etkearne said:


> Alright, it is written. Hopefully you guys will like it. Are we putting them up yet?


No no no! That's still ages away yet. I'll send out pms closer to the time, but you will be ready when it comes.


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## etkearne

Ok. That sounds good. And, yes, I got it done in one day. I don't have a regular job, so all I do is compose classical music all day long. And I am a fast-paced composer to boot.


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## Schubussy

I may have an entry, not sure yet though.


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## Ramako

Well, obviously I haven't made the round 4 thread. We have 4 entries.

Concerning this round, either it doesn't happen, or we leave it open for a few more submissions over the next few days. If the former, then I can make a thread and people can listen to and enjoy the seasonal music without the competitive aspect of it. For the latter, it is Christmas season, making it a little difficult, however I think people can muster up something. Perhaps they already have a piece written.


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## Schubussy

Had a pretty busy month, don't really have any time to do one in the next few days either sadly, being christmas and all. I'll make sure to enter the next round.


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## jani

etkearne said:


> Alright, it is written. Hopefully you guys will like it. Are we putting them up yet?


Day has 24 hours.
For me there is enough time for music but i have to sacrifice social activities.
I sleep 4-6h.
Work 8h + 2h for trips.
That equals 16h.
So you have 8h left for music/whatever you decide to do.


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## juergen

Ramako said:


> If the former, then I can make a thread and people can listen to and enjoy the seasonal music without the competitive aspect of it.


Probably the best. Anyway, Christmas is the celebration of love, not a celebration of competition. 

Merry Christmas!


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## Ramako

jani said:


> Day has 24 hours.
> For me there is enough time for music but i have to sacrifice social activities.
> *I sleep 4-6h.*
> Work 8h + 2h for trips.
> That equals 16h.
> So you have 8h left for music/whatever you decide to do.


I commend you for being able to live with that amount of sleep. I used to sleep about that amount every day for about a year, but then found that I couldn't cope and kept on falling asleep during the day etc. so gave up. I now sleep about 8hrs a day and I don't think about it as much.


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## etkearne

I wrote mine but simply don't have the time to convert it to a video. It has been "up" on my Soundcloud page for three weeks, however (in case you wanted to prove it was written before the deadline). Can I put a link up or something (or have until the day after Christmas to convert it to Youtube).


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## Ramako

If you could change it to video and upload it to Youtube, that would be great etkearne. Then we will have 5 pieces and that will be a decent number. I'll make the thread tomorrow. With 5 entries we could consider having it a competition, but I think the thread will lay an emphasis on people enjoying our Christmas offerings


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