# Lets be clear about grade exams in the UK



## Jaws

Grade exams were originally designed to be taken by children to show that they have learned their lessons properly. 

In terms of musical education they are equivalent to exams that children and young people take at school. Grade 8 could be compared to an A level. 

What I find is that some adults don't understand what these exams are and they seem to think that passing a grade gives them some sort of measure of standard in instrument playing in general. This is not the case. The standard that a grade exam gives can only measured in comparison to another grade exam, so for example grade 5 is better than grade 4 but not as good as grade 6. That is it, nothing else. The reason for this is because what a grade exam tests is much too narrow to give any sort of level of playing standard except in comparison to another grade exam.

In the music world no one is interested in which grade you have passed. What they are interested in is can you play a piece of music in a group? Grades do not test ensemble playing so having passed grade 8 on the violin does not mean that you could play 2nd violin in a string quartet. 

Grade 8 is an elementary exam. It isn't the highest standard that you can get to, it is the beginning of learning not the end. If you tell someone that you have passed grade 8, what you are actually saying is that you are an elementary player who is at the beginning of learning to play an instrument. 

I would like teachers of adult learners to explain properly what these exams actually are and also what they are not. There is actually no point at all in an adult taking any of these exams because if you are paying for your lessons you know whether you have done enough practice or not you don't need to pay someone else to tell you that you have or have not learned your lessons properly. These exams really are children's exams, they are just like spelling tests.


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## dgee

Jaws said:


> In the music world no one is interested in which grade you have passed. What they are interested in is can you play a piece of music in a group?


I'm not opposed to grade exams per se - they gave me a bit of motivation as a kid and were useful performance opportunities. And I enjoyed the ear training and tests. But they are what they are

What I've quoted from you is exactly right and the key point - Will anyone hire you? Do peple want to listen to you play? That's the test as an adult


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## Majed Al Shamsi

My grade 1 exam is in mid-June. The level of my anticipation has been substantially diminished. Thanks.


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## PetrB

My first jury exams were in high school, at an arts academy. There would have been no such thing if I had continued through high school while taking apart private lessons.

That was long ago, when in the United States, at least, there were no 'grade programs' for anyone other than end of semester jury exams in college music departments and conservatories.

These grade levels are, as stated in the OP, a basic set of graded levels for beginners, with quite a variable in not repertoire, but performance standard when it comes to the higher levels. Student A could be playing that eighth level exam with enough technical and musical aplomb to successfully audition for and be accepted into a university or conservatory music program, student B could be playing the same repertoire, get a high mark, and not be anywhere near a hope of successfully auditioning for upper level music major programs. One student then, could be extra talented, served well by the teachers, having worked through the grade system, but that success is not at all accounted for by that grade system or its rankings. Another _with the same level and same grade_ could be radically less of a player!
_There is nothing very reliable about the results of a grade system which has such latitudes._

The fact one is paying for lessons and then must also pay an additional exam fee seems more like a racket than a good pedagogic industry... The fact the student taking grade level study is not required to take any exams is more than interesting and very telling. (The student can also go through all the levels of lessons and take just the last level exam

The fact that a student wishing to audition for placement as a performance major in a university or conservatory has no need -- none -- of any 'grade level' study or exam credits is also quite telling.

I have no idea where the myth sprung up that one needs certified grade level lessons, certified teachers of grade level lessons, and grade level exams as some requisite for admission into college and conservatory level higher training.

If I am reading things right, that highest grade level is possibly less or at least no mare than the level I was at when I auditioned for a music camp in fifth grade middle school -- the meaning of which is that the 'official' grade level programs in the U.K., and similar in the United States (where they exist in some states, but not in others) are very loosely 'relative,' and that they don't mean very much at all.

In days of yore, teachers used to have their students play for each other, either in a seminar sort of dynamic or a recital in their home or a simple hired hall. Performing for others is a valuable experience, and good practice for taking exams later if they are a required part of the program you are in.

I can see no sense whatsoever in taking exams which 'mean nothing' in the way of applied qualifications and cost an additional fee, to boot! Sounds very much like you are buying a badge of non-merit to hang on the wall.

The few English professional musicians I know, who have numerous high diplomas from conservatories and a lot of later professional experience, put little or no credence in the English music lesson grade level system.


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## Jaws

Majed Al Shamsi said:


> My grade 1 exam is in mid-June. The level of my anticipation has been substantially diminished. Thanks.


I am sorry about that but this is why I posted this here, because you shouldn't really be interested in taking these exams and your teacher should have explained about them properly. In case you are still in any doubt about this, the certificate you get for passing this exam is roughly the equivalent of getting a badge for cooking or some other activity in brownies or cubs of the guides and scout movement. Brownies and cubs are the clubs for young children. This is why I really don't think that these exams are suitable for adults.

Many years ago when I was teaching musical instruments to young children I took grade 1 on a euphonium that I borrowed from one of the schools I visited. I had to stick up the holes in some of the piping with tape to stop the leaks and then took grade 1, 2 weeks later. I now use this exam as a joke. It makes my friends laugh because it is such a ridiculously low standard for an adult to be interested in taking an exam in. So my advice would be to take your grade 1, but then don't tell any other adult that you have passed it or even taken it as you might not like their reactions. Saying you have taken grade 1 also tells everyone that you are a very low standard beginner.

My general advice to adults is do not waste your time and money on these exams. All they do is make money for the exam boards.

People who are paying for lessons who have teachers who suggest these exams really need to ask themselves why their teacher is suggesting something that means nothing when you have passed it.


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## Jaws

*Diploma exams in the UK*

So back to the diplomas. I read somewhere that DipABRSM, ATCL and ALCM are being advertised as being the level that a music student would have reached by the end of their first year. You have to read this carefully it doesn't say that it is the standard required to pass the diploma only at the end of their first year, in other words passing one of these diplomas doesn't mean that you are an equal standard to someone at the end of their first year at a music college or conservatoire, because most people going to a conservatoire reach that standard when they are about 16 and still at school. As you can see they will have reached the standard by the end of their first year, they had reached it when they STARTED the first year as well. The same applies for all the other diplomas as well. None of them are equal to the standards reached at the end of the years at music conservatoires.

The ONLY way to reach a standard that might be expected at the end of the first year at a music conservatoire is to attend the conservatoire and pass the performance exam at the end of the 1st year.

Professional orchestral players in the UK do not bother with any of the diplomas. The standard is just much too low to be worth the time and money to pass these exams. So if someone tries to tell you that they are good enough to play professionally because they have passed one of these exams this simply isn't true, they are not good enough. The only way someone can be "professional standard" is if they are earning their income entirely from playing.

It is also the case that someone who advertises themselves as an instrumental teacher and their highest and only music qualification is a diploma like FRSM or FTCL etc, they simply do not know enough to teach. Diplomas are not professional exams in terms of professional qualifications in music because they don't qualify you to do anything. Always look for someone who has a music degree as well as any diplomas. Or someone who has extensive experience of playing professionally.

Remember there are no exams for professional playing. This is decided by whether someone can pass an audition or not.


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## Jaws

What i wanted to add is something that I realised from another thread and that is this. 

If you do not want to be compared in standard to children who take grade 8 at primary school, do NOT take children's music exams, stick with adult music education that doesn't have an exam system. Adult music education in the UK does not have an exam system. The children's system of music education has grade exams. If you as an adult take children's exams you WILL be compared to a child player, if not by me someone somewhere will do it.


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## Majed Al Shamsi

Jaws said:


> So my advice would be to take your grade 1, but then don't tell any other adult that you have passed it or even taken it as you might not like their reactions.


Well then, what's the point? :lol:

I don't find it insulting to be compared to children when it comes to a matter of which my knowledge is as little as theirs. My teacher's other student, who's about 10, is a lot better than I am at sight-reading, for instance.

But I get your point. You don't get your money's worth. You can teach yourself everything that is required for the exam, and as long as you know you can do it, there's no need for a certificate.

Another reason why I'm not really looking forward to it is that I'm more interested in theory and composing than I am in playing. My current plan is to take the grade 1 exam (since I already paid for a slot) and then give my undivided attention to theory and musical composition.


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## Jaws

*UK grade exams explained for the benefit of people who don't do them.*

For the benefit of people who live in countries that don't do UK grade exams I thought I would explain what they are. The grades are numbered 1 to 8 and mostly only cover learning fingerings. The pieces that are used to test candidates have a larger range of notes and fingerings at the higher end grades 6, 7 and 8 than at the lower grade 1, 2 and 3.  The standard of playing required to pass the higher grades is extremely elementary. For example you don't even need to be able to make a pleasant sound on the instrument, basically all you have to do is to get your fingers around the notes. Because they are mostly a fingering exercise, and because there is no time limit on how long you have to learn the pieces it is quite possible to be able to pass the highest grade simply by working through all of the other grades one after another. What this means is that there are a number of adults and children who can ONLY play the pieces set for exams and nothing else.

It is also quite possible to have passed grade 8 and not be able to play really simple ensemble music. An example of this was an adult who had passed grade 8 but was less able to play ensemble music than other adult starters who had only been playing for a few months.

There is a wide difference in how well or not so well people can play and still pass the exam.

When you buy the music for a grade exam there is the option to also buy a CD with examples of the pieces played on it and also the piano accompaniment part. What this leads to is a number of people who simply copy what is on the CD and play the music by ear. It is also possible to pass these exams without being able to read a note of music. There is a sight reading test for one board that if you fail this test you can still pass the exam.

So it is quite possible to pass these exams without being able to read a note of music, without being able to count beats and without knowing how to play rhythm or work out rhythms. You can do it all by learning fingerings and copying what is on the CD. There is no need to understand anything about the music that you are playing.

The standard of playing required to pass is also extremely low which is why it is now not unusual for children at primary school age 10 or 11 to pass grade 8 some of them get distinctions and some of them take the exam on fractional size violins.

The exams cannot be used for anything as they are not standards in general music education only standards in relation to other grade exams.

There are a lot of misconceptions about these exams. For example you do not need to have passed grade 8 to get accepted for a place to study music at university it is quite possible for someone from the UK to be accepted on a university music course without passing grade 8 as long as they meet the standard of playing that would allow them to pass grade 8 if they had taken it. Not taking the grade exam does not mean that they will not be considered for a place, and as most places are decided by audition not having taken grade 8 doesn't make a difference. It is quite possible for someone to have passed grade 8 and not be offered a place at university to study music if they fail the audition.

There is another misconception about these exams. In the UK there are levels for exams. Grade 8 is in the same level as an A level. This does not mean that it is the same academic level as an A level. The levels were worked out on the average time it takes someone to study for the exams, not on the level of knowledge required. I personally think that grade 8 is in the wrong level and should be in the same level as GCSEs or lower. Many people can pass grade 8, 2 years after starting to learn an instrument. One person I know did it 6 months after starting and passed to win a bet. In one school that I know of children take up the flute practice for 2 years, take grade 8 and then give up. The reason that they do this is because they can get points towards their university places because the grade is in the same level as an A level. However universities are learning that this is happening and many no longer accept points earned from grade exams.

The best comparison for what you get from passing one of these exams is something like a badge for learning to swim a certain distance in a pool or a badge for an activity in the guides and scout movement. Children are quite happy to collect the certificates a bit like stamps or some other card collections. Really this is all you can do because in terms of exams grades don't give any form of qualification they are exams that don't lead to anything apart from another grade exam.

I have a very good friend who works a lot with adult beginners who is trying desperately to educate adults as to why it is a complete waste of time and money for adults to take these exams. They aren't even good practice in performance because you don't have to play the pieces very well to pass the exam, and now many people do performances that consist of playing to one person in a small room?


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## Jaws

*Using exams as motivation to practice.*

Unless you are playing an instrument to help you not to get dementia, using exams for motivation to practice means that you haven't really understood about learning an instrument.

You have to enjoy practicing. The practice time is where you solve problems. The best way to solve problems is to play studies that address the problems that you are trying to solve. The least useful way to solve problems is to play pieces.

Anyone who can't motivate themselves to practice is actually doing the wrong hobby and it is only worth continuing if you understand that you are not going to improve very much by playing the same pieces over and over again as pieces do not solve problems. You learn the technique in order to play pieces not the other way round.


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## TurnaboutVox

I am intrigued as to what has upset you so much about this topic (3 threads (edit: 4 threads!) started in a few hours, plus comments on others).

The contributor who posted of her pleasure in passing a first music exam is surely entitled to feel pleasure in that, and if that would be more appropriate for a child, why should her 'inner child' not experience some child-like joy?


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## dgee

I see on another thread you LTCL on horn. Me too! with help from my teacher I developed a nice recital programme and played it quite well (given my age, of course) in the exam room and in some other venues too. And then I learned a lot doing the theory component. A bit later I went to tertiary study and had some sort of music career for a while. The exams were what they were - I quite enjoyed them and learnt a lot. Of course, I was mainly keen on playing in ensembles (youth, amateur and semi-pro) and this aspect drove me in other ways

I think exams can definitely be part of a rounded music education. I find your views on them a bit severe - especially when you think about how kids learn and the different motivations people might have for playing. But yeah - spill on why you hate them so much. I don't see them used as much of a signpost of ability by adults. And, y'know, if adults are crowing about their grade 6 piano to win friends and influence then they might be the losers here!


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## Jaws

TurnaboutVox said:


> I am intrigued as to what has upset you so much about this topic (3 threads started an a few hours, plus comments on others).
> 
> The contributor who posted of her pleasure in passing a first music exam is surely entitled to feel pleasure in that, and if that would be more appropriate for a child, why should her 'inner child' not experience some child-like joy?


I would like adult beginners to be taken more seriously by teachers and music colleges and universities. People who tell everyone about their grade exams just reinforce the idea that adult beginners are so stupid that they don't realise what standards in music actually are, and this makes it difficult for talented adult beginners to be taken seriously.

I can't decide whether the grade problem in adult music education is caused by terrible teaching, using the grade syllabus to teach adults, this can happen because teachers believe that adults are not worth teaching properly because they are happy with taking these low standard exams, or just a general lack of good adult music education.

The other thing is that there is no achievement in passing these grade exams as they are such a low standard that any adult given enough time to practice the pieces would be able to take and pass them.

Lots of adults confuse their own problems with passing grade exams with difficult of the exam. Grade 3 is a really really easy music exam very small children can pass it. You don't need to be able to do very much. Just because someone finds something difficult doesn't mean that it is.

The point about playing a musical instrument is that it should be fun. So much fun that you enjoy playing it and want to improve so that you can have more fun playing more exiting music. I can't imagine why anyone would be happy playing easy arrangements of pieces or pieces written for young children that are on an exam syllabus when there are plenty of original compositions that they can learn that are not on any exam syllabus. So I am back to what I still think and that is that most adult beginners do not understand what grade exams are. I think that this is very sad. What I am trying to do is to stop adult musicians making themselves look like fools.


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## Majed Al Shamsi

I just don't see what difference age makes.
If you've never played the piano, does it really make that big a difference how old you are?

Let's make this a bit more interesting.
I'm an adult (EDIT: Though many would disagree :lol. What would you have me learn for a high standard grade 1 exam?


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## Jaws

Majed Al Shamsi said:


> I just don't see what difference age makes.
> If you've never played the piano, does it really make that big a difference how old you are?
> 
> Let's make this a bit more interesting.
> I'm an adult (EDIT: Though many would disagree :lol. What would you have me learn for a high standard grade 1 exam?


There isn't a high standard grade 1 exam. You are going to learn pieces that are suitable for a 6 year old child. So things called for example something like The March of the Teddy Bears, or the Dolls Song. I mean honestly would you really want to do this if you could find something more interesting to do? Grade 1 is designed to be taken by small children so the pieces have to appeal to this age range. The dynamic range will be very small and you won't be expected to be very accurate. You can expect silly little tunes or really really simplified arrangements of classical music pieces things like Ode to Joy an arrangement of the theme in the last movement of Beethoven's 9th Symphony. The arrangements will be so simplified that they will be almost impossible to recognise from the original, and unfortunately unlike the 6 year old children you will probably know the original and will be able to make a comparison. You would be much better to practice scales, fingering exercises and studies.


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## Majed Al Shamsi

I know there isn't a high standard grade 1 exam, at least according to you.
That's why I asked you, what would you have people learn in a high standard grade 1 exam.
Anyway, scales, fingering exercises and a bit of theory is included in my grade 1 exam, so it's really not that bad.


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## dgee

You can play anything to a high standard! Start with accuracy and rhythm then try to make a nice sound. Achieve this consistently in your pieces and scales. You will have learnt a lot!


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## PetrB

Jaws said:


> There isn't a high standard grade 1 exam. You are going to learn pieces that are suitable for a 6 year old child.


You are absolutely correct. If you are sixty, and taking your first lessons at an instrument, you are the most basic of beginners. What you overlook is that most sixty year-olds (or adults) who begin basic lessons _are highly aware they are beginners._

As for what one studies as a beginner, speak for yourself!

My first piano lessons were from 'real books,' without illustrations or dumbed-down explanations of technique or approach. I started with Bartok's _MicroKosmos, Book I,_ and a Schirmer anthology of _Beginner's Bach_ (selections from the Anna Magdalena notebook as well as a movement from an English suite, pieces by some of Bach's sons, etc.) Along with these, also within that first year, were pieces from Schumann's _Album fur die Jungend_, and some pieces from Octavio Pinto's _Scenas Infantis_, 20th century character pieces written for his concert pianist wife.

Nowhere in sight was anything like '_March of the Teddy Bears_,' or a piece called 'Butterflies' with configurations to get me to use a particular fundamental technical motion. In brief, _my introduction and first lessons were anything but "dumbed down," and I was six years old._

From that base, I see no reason to teach adults in any less straightforward a manner (and I did teach adult beginners for years). If you would rather crusade against horrid and condescending teaching of first instrumental lessons to students of any age, I might throw in my signature on that petition 

If you had read any of the TC member's posts about their adventure of picking up the violin in later life, their lessons, and exams, you would know that poster is not at all deluded about what that level exam 'means,' but merely set a goal for herself as a hobby player, and decided to sign up for a deadline with a little external pressure that comes along with that. You are misreading the entire event, person, etc. and imho wildly over-reacting.

You also have to realize that the 'grade system' is pretty much an English thing, with only a few of the American States having anything like, exams and all. Canada has a grade system, and what I have heard of it it may be more exacting per level than the English system. The issue is not universal to the English speaking world


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## TurnaboutVox

Well, this forum is used by musicians and non-musicians alike, and its membership includes people who have come (back) to playing a musical instrument later in life. I can imagine such a person (I can imagine myself) gaining huge pleasure from mastering a relatively simple task (learning to use a computer or play an instrument or pass an elementary exam intended primarily for children) whilst being fully aware of an 'adult' part of themselves looking on indulgently at their 'childlike' self. I guess one of the joys of this forum is that one can admit to enjoying passing an exam for children, or never having heard of Mozart (choose your own equivalent), without being made to feel a fool.



Jaws said:


> So I am back to what I still think and that is that most adult beginners do not understand what grade exams are. I think that this is very sad. What I am trying to do is to stop adult musicians making themselves look like fools.


The OP you were responding to in another thread can look after herself, but I doubt she feels a fool, and she doesn't look a fool in my eyes.

I was suggesting that you might reflect on why her pleasure had upset you so much; that is, to look under the surface a little.


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## Jaws

PetrB said:


> You are absolutely correct. If you are sixty, and taking your first lessons at an instrument, you are the most basic of beginners. What you overlook is that most sixty year-olds (or adults) who begin basic lessons _are highly aware they are beginners._
> 
> As for what you study, speak for yourself! My first piano lessons were from 'real books,' without illustrations or dumbed-down explanations of technique or approach. I started with Bartok _MicroKosmos_ and a Schirmer anthology of _Beginner's Bach_ (selections from the Anna Magdalena notebook as well as a movement from an English suite, pieces by some of Bach's sons, etc.) Along with these, also in first year, were Schumann's _Album fur die Jungend_, some pieces from Octavio Pinto's _Scenas Infantis_, 20th century character pieces written for his concert pianist wife, etc. Nowhere in sight was anything like '_March of the Teddy Bears_,' or a piece called 'Butterflies' with configurations to get me to use a particular fundamental technical motion. In brief, my _introduction and first lessons were anything but "dumbed down," and I was six years old._
> 
> From that base, I see no reason to teach adults in any less straightforward a manner. If you want to rather crusade against horrid and condescending teaching of first instrumental lessons to students of any age, I might throw in my signature in support of that
> 
> If you had read any of the TC member's posts about their adventure of picking up the violin in later life, their lessons, and exams, you would know that poster is not at all deluded about what that level exam 'means,' but merely set a goal for herself as a hobby player, and decided to sign up for a deadline with a little external pressure that comes along with that. You are misreading the entire event, person, etc. and imho wildly over-reacting.


You have really got what I am trying to do. I am trying to stop " horrid and condescending teaching of first instrumental music lessons." Grade exams come under patronising and condescending teaching when they are used with adults.


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## Jaws

TurnaboutVox said:


> Well, this forum is used by musicians and non-musicians alike, and its membership includes people who have come (back) to playing a musical instrument later in life. I can imagine such a person (I can imagine myself) gaining huge pleasure from mastering a relatively simple task (learning to use a computer or play an instrument or pass an elementary exam intended primarily for children) whilst being fully aware of an 'adult' part of themselves looking on indulgently at their 'childlike' self. I guess one of the joys of this forum is that one can admit to enjoying passing an exam for children, or never having heard of Mozart (choose your own equivalent), without being made to feel a fool.
> 
> The OP you were responding to in another thread can look after herself, but I doubt she feels a fool, and she doesn't look a fool in my eyes.
> 
> I was suggesting that you might reflect on why her pleasure had upset you so much; that is, to look under the surface a little.


The subject of this grade 3 exam upsets me because I spend a lot of time educating adults about grade exams. So every time an adult mentions a grade exam I feel that in terms of adult education it is a huge step backwards, and it contributes to the way that adult beginners are patronised and not taken seriously. I am trying to raise the standards in adult musical instrument education and this sort of thing just makes it really difficult to get adult learners taken seriously.


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## PetrB

It may take a stretch of the imagination, _or actually being much older_ and _finally_ signing up for those lessons in ________ and later satisfactorily coming up with what is required, even in the first semester of the most beginning level, to understand for the doer it is not just a small achievement but it is also a rightly smug _*"I finally got around to doing this after thinking about it for years, I'm having a blast, and I did well enough to call it 'progress.'"*_

Maybe you will have to wait to have anything like that happen in your personal life to realize there is no false or weird glee that one has passed a 'first level exam' while one is well past the age of six, in whatever the discipline.


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## mmsbls

I think what confuses many people on TC is why anyone would imagine a forum member would ridicule someone for simply announcing an achievement. Good for her. She passed grade 3. Congratulations are in order. So it's not equivalent to auditioning and getting a job in the New York Philharmonic. She just wants to play violin better. 

Incidentally, both my children took Karate lessons for many years. They were young at the time, but many adults took the identical lessons. They also took the identical tests to proceed to higher belts. As far as I could tell the adults were just as pleased at passing the tests as the children were. And of course, they should have been. It was a real achievement that anyone should be proud of.


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## dgee

Jaws said:


> The subject of this grade 3 exam upsets me because I spend a lot of time educating adults about grade exams. So every time an adult mentions a grade exam I feel that in terms of adult education it is a huge step backwards, and it contributes to the way that adult beginners are patronised and not taken seriously. I am trying to raise the standards in adult musical instrument education and this sort of thing just makes it really difficult to get adult learners taken seriously.


So, what happens for adult beginners in your perfect world? Must they reach a certain level before they are allowed to perform? Should they be presented with a technical workbook with years' worth of exercises and etudes and told they need to master these before they can perform a piece without making a fool of themselves?

I don't know many adult beginners, but it generally seems to me that they are learning music for fun. It usually fits in around around family and work and social life. Some intermediate goals (rather than complete mastery or equivalent) can be quite important to ensure time and focus for practice and to give a sense of progress. These might be recitals, auditions or even exams.

Question for you - can an adult playing to a beginner standard perform at all without making a fool of themselves? I think they can and they should be encouraged to. An exam might be the right forum for some

BTW - here is the syllabus for Grade 3 Violin: http://shop.abrsm.org/shop/syllabus/abrsm-violin-2012-2015-grade-3/12406/146/3

I'm wagerin you could make a pleasant albeit short performance out of a selection those pieces. And you do ear-training and sight reading (and scales) as well - good impetus for brushing up on this stuff too

Look - I'm no cheer-leader for exams, but I don't see that they're the evil for adults you make it out to be. Bottom-line probably is - an exam can be what you make it regardless of age!


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## PetrB

I'm certain there is no 'guarantee' that having the highest grade level will grant automatic admission to a university music program or a conservatory as a performance major. I doubt it would prepare the student to pass theory tests which would allow them to skip harmony or ear training 101 at university level, either.

What they sound like, at best, is good 'conservatory level prep.' College level applications require some CV, plus a live audition and theory placement testing. Whether that CV has on it grade level certificates or not, the application process and admissions policy I think are 'apart' from being in any way dependent upon official grade levels and the certificates from that program.

Not knowing the English system, it is still difficult to imagine that a high grade level grants automatic entry / acceptance as university or conservatory music majors: ergo, it seems quite certain there are young musicians who have done another training independent of the grade system who also gain admittance sans grade level certificates.

It would be interesting to see a statistic re: how many with the top grade level who apply to university as music major or a conservatory are accepted and how many are not. I wonder if such a statistic is available, and if not, then _why_ not


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## Jaws

PetrB said:


> I'm certain there is no 'guarantee' that having the highest grade level will grant automatic admission to a university music program or a conservatory as a performance major. I doubt it would prepare the student to pass theory tests which would allow them to skip harmony or ear training 101 at university level, either.
> 
> What they sound like, at best, is good 'conservatory level prep.' College level applications require some CV, plus a live audition and theory placement testing. Whether that CV has on it grade level certificates or not, the application process and admissions policy I think are 'apart' from being in any way dependent upon official grade levels and the certificates from that program.
> 
> Not knowing the English system, it is still difficult to imagine that a high grade level grants automatic entry / acceptance as university or conservatory music majors: ergo, it seems quite certain there are young musicians who have done another training independent of the grade system who also gain admittance sans grade level certificates.
> 
> It would be interesting to see a statistic re: how many with the top grade level who apply to university as music major or a conservatory are accepted and how many are not. I wonder if such a statistic is available, and if not, then _why_ not


You have to separate university from conservatoire here. Conservatoires are not at all interested in which grades people have passes because the typical conservatoire student will be a fast learner, so they usually take grade 8 after about 2 years of learning the instrument and will have got a top mark in it by the time they are 14. For violin they have usually got a top mark in grade 8 by the age of 11, so you can see that at 18 these students have reached a standard of playing that is no way reflected by their grade exam passes. That is why the audition is the only means of entry.

For university it does tend to depend on the university and the level of difficulty of the degree and the type of course. So for example if you are wanting to study an academic music course which doesn't include performance you may be asked to have passed grade 8 or have reached the standard required to pass grade 8.

However if you are wanting to do a performance degree at a top university you will be required to audition. So whether you have passed grade 8 or not won't make any difference to you being accepted if you can't pass the audition.

Here in the UK there is a huge difference between the standards required for the top universities and the bottom ones, both in terms of A levels and playing standards. However many university courses do require students to play in ensembles and grade exams do not test ensemble playing and they don't prepare someone play in ensembles. So if you go to a low level university and get in having only done grades, you won't pass the course.


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## Jaws

I have just remembered something else about grades. It is extremely difficult to fail grades 1 to 5. The reasons for this include, why fail a 9 year old taking an exam that is like a spelling test? As long as they can show that they have spent some time preparing for the exam, they will pass. The only failures come from people who show that they have made absolutely no attempt to prepare. Another reason is why would the exam board fail someone who they hope will pay to take other grades? 

After hearing some really terrible oboe players who have passed grade 8, I have a theory that some people are passed in grade 8 so that no other examiner will have to be subjected to the terrible noise they make.


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## Jaws

dgee said:


> So, what happens for adult beginners in your perfect world? Must they reach a certain level before they are allowed to perform? Should they be presented with a technical workbook with years' worth of exercises and etudes and told they need to master these before they can perform a piece without making a fool of themselves?
> 
> I don't know many adult beginners, but it generally seems to me that they are learning music for fun. It usually fits in around around family and work and social life. Some intermediate goals (rather than complete mastery or equivalent) can be quite important to ensure time and focus for practice and to give a sense of progress. These might be recitals, auditions or even exams.
> 
> Question for you - can an adult playing to a beginner standard perform at all without making a fool of themselves? I think they can and they should be encouraged to. An exam might be the right forum for some
> 
> BTW - here is the syllabus for Grade 3 Violin: http://shop.abrsm.org/shop/syllabus/abrsm-violin-2012-2015-grade-3/12406/146/3
> 
> I'm wagerin you could make a pleasant albeit short performance out of a selection those pieces. And you do ear-training and sight reading (and scales) as well - good impetus for brushing up on this stuff too
> 
> Look - I'm no cheer-leader for exams, but I don't see that they're the evil for adults you make it out to be. Bottom-line probably is - an exam can be what you make it regardless of age!


This is another misconception that adults have about grade exams. A grade exam isn't a performance in the normal idea of a performance. Most people do not pay their audience to listen to them. In a grade exam you pay the examiner to listen to you play. It is also the case that most performances do not consist of playing to one person in a small room who when you have finished playing says something like thank you and now can we move onto the sight reading.

In fact if you look at the ABRSM forum you will find that people on there organise performance sessions where they play to each other in order to have a go at performing. The people who use the forum are keen on grade exams but even they do not class them as performances.

They aren't evil for adults they are just a complete waste of time and money. In my experience when they are explained properly to adult learners, people don't want to bother with them.

If you are doing a grade exam you have to remember that the cost includes not only the music for the exam and the entry fee, it also includes all of the lessons that are paid for preparing for it. So to take grade 3 can cost around £400. For less than this you could go on a weekend residential course for beginner string players. Have a go at playing with other people, make new friends, play in a small concert at the end of the course and generally make a lot more progress for your time and money spent.

What you get for your grade exam time and money spent is a bit of paper that says you have got enough marks in the opinion of one person to get the certificate. Nothing else. They don't tell you anything about how well you play, how far you have got, whether you sound nice to listen to, whether you are using the correct techniques for the instrument, whether you can count, or even play well enough with a piano if the pianist is not someone who you have paid to play for you in the exam and cover up your mistakes.

The standard required to pass is extremely low. The exam board wants you to pay to take more exams so they are going to pass as many people as they can. The whole point of grade exams is to make money for the exam board. If you want to help them do that then that is fine, but don't mistake that for something that gives standards in music because grade exams don't do that. Don't mistake them for chances to perform because they aren't that either.


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## Couac Addict

Quite right. I went to conservatoire and can't recall ever being asked about grades/exams. From memory, they were quite interested in my ensemble work which prompted the audition etc.


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## Winterreisender

I rather agree with the OP. When I was in school, I got to Grade 8 piano. It wasn't that hard really; you just have to memorise three pieces and a few other exercises. If I recall, the amount of sight-reading and improvisation was minimal. On the back of this "qualification" (as well as a music A Level, which is even more of a joke) I went to study music at a pretty decent university but dropped out after 2 days, having realised that this music "education" had taught me nothing (and that I generally suck at piano, lol). But even for kids, I question the value of the grade system as it currently is. I feel as if our education system in general places too much emphasis on passing exams and not enough emphasis on getting to grips with the wider subject.


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## mmsbls

Several threads have been merged into one since they all essentially discussed the same topic. In addition some comments and post have been deleted due to either inappropriate comments or quoting of those comments.


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## Jaws

dgee said:


> So, what happens for adult beginners in your perfect world? Must they reach a certain level before they are allowed to perform? Should they be presented with a technical workbook with years' worth of exercises and etudes and told they need to master these before they can perform a piece without making a fool of themselves?
> 
> I don't know many adult beginners, but it generally seems to me that they are learning music for fun. It usually fits in around around family and work and social life. Some intermediate goals (rather than complete mastery or equivalent) can be quite important to ensure time and focus for practice and to give a sense of progress. These might be recitals, auditions or even exams.
> 
> Question for you - can an adult playing to a beginner standard perform at all without making a fool of themselves? I think they can and they should be encouraged to. An exam might be the right forum for some
> 
> BTW - here is the syllabus for Grade 3 Violin: http://shop.abrsm.org/shop/syllabus/abrsm-violin-2012-2015-grade-3/12406/146/3
> 
> I'm wagerin you could make a pleasant albeit short performance out of a selection those pieces. And you do ear-training and sight reading (and scales) as well - good impetus for brushing up on this stuff too
> 
> Look - I'm no cheer-leader for exams, but I don't see that they're the evil for adults you make it out to be. Bottom-line probably is - an exam can be what you make it regardless of age!


Thanks for the syllabus for grade 3 it is actually worse than I thought it would be. Fiddle Time Sprinters is the kind of book that has little pictures of children playing and the like. There is such a huge repertoire for violin, you would think that they could find more original pieces than they have?


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## senza sordino

Exams in school tell is how well a student does on an exam, not how smart they are. The same with a music exam, they tell us how well someone does on a music exam, not how musical they are. 

That doesn't mean exams are pointless, they're a tool in a larger tool box of evaluation. Yes, it's often the only too we use, so if all you have is a hammer every problem looks like a nail. Hammers are important for solving one problem. Exams are good to evaluate one aspect of intelligence or musical ability. 

Adult beginners know they're beginners so they know to expect tunes for kids. But there are alternatives. My beginner book for violin had simplified versions of Brahms 1st symphony, The Firebird, Beethoven's 7th and his violin concerto. That was exciting. 

I took two exams 15 years ago, as an adult. Grade 4 and grade 6. Here in Canada we have ten grades plus performers ARCT and teachers ARCT. At each level, the repertoire gets larger and you have a choice of what to play on the exam. I chose what I wanted to play, some Vivaldi. Adults don't have to play Children's Tunes. 

When hiring for an orchestra there will be an audition just like any job interview. The employer wants to hear you play or speak, not just look at your grades from some exam. 

The exam is a snapshot in time. They are not the alpha and omega of ability.


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## senza sordino

double post was submitted


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## Jaws

senza sordino said:


> Exams in school tell is how well a student does on an exam, not how smart they are. The same with a music exam, they tell us how well someone does on a music exam, not how musical they are.
> 
> That doesn't mean exams are pointless, they're a tool in a larger tool box of evaluation. Yes, it's often the only too we use, so if all you have is a hammer every problem looks like a nail. Hammers are important for solving one problem. Exams are good to evaluate one aspect of intelligence or musical ability.
> 
> Adult beginners know they're beginners so they know to expect tunes for kids. But there are alternatives. My beginner book for violin had simplified versions of Brahms 1st symphony, The Firebird, Beethoven's 7th and his violin concerto. That was exciting.
> 
> I took two exams 15 years ago, as an adult. Grade 4 and grade 6. Here in Canada we have ten grades plus performers ARCT and teachers ARCT. At each level, the repertoire gets larger and you have a choice of what to play on the exam. I chose what I wanted to play, some Vivaldi. Adults don't have to play Children's Tunes.
> 
> When hiring for an orchestra there will be an audition just like any job interview. The employer wants to hear you play or speak, not just look at your grades from some exam.
> 
> The exam is a snapshot in time. They are not the alpha and omega of ability.


I suspect though that the Canadian system is much better than the UK one from what I have seen of it. I will ask you a question and we can see. For grade 4, one that you took. Here in the UK the difference between the bottom level required to pass and the top level mark can be equivalent to an extra grade or two. So it would be quite possible for someone who got a distinction in grade 4 to have got a pass in grade 5 or a merit in grade 5 or even a pass in grade 6 depending on the examiner. What this means is that there isn't actually a standard within each actual grade, so they aren't actually measuring anything. So for instance if someone says that they have passed grade 4 you can't actually work out from that what they can or can't do. Is this the same for the exams in Canada or do the ones that you have give an indication of how someone plays?


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## hreichgott

Here in the US we have the Music Development Program which is affiliated with the Royal Conservatory of Toronto. The Grade 10 repertoire is about the right minimum level for college/conservatory admissions, playing in front of a judge is good practice for auditions, and the judge gives you many pages of handwritten feedback on your playing. I think Grade 10 would be good practice for someone preparing for music school auditions. Without bothering with the earlier grades of course. Obviously a "pass" doesn't mean you'd automatically get in to any school... but a fail would be a useful warning sign that more work is needed before trying a real audition. Plus any chance to be evaluated in detail by a knowledgeable person who isn't one's own teacher or one's mom is a good thing. 

But these exams aren't used by very many people here. I didn't even know they existed until I had been teaching for several years.


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## Jaws

hreichgott said:


> Here in the US we have the Music Development Program which is affiliated with the Royal Conservatory of Toronto. The Grade 10 repertoire is about the right minimum level for college/conservatory admissions, playing in front of a judge is good practice for auditions, and the judge gives you many pages of handwritten feedback on your playing. I think Grade 10 would be good practice for someone preparing for music school auditions. Without bothering with the earlier grades of course. Obviously a "pass" doesn't mean you'd automatically get in to any school... but a fail would be a useful warning sign that more work is needed before trying a real audition. Plus any chance to be evaluated in detail by a knowledgeable person who isn't one's own teacher or one's mom is a good thing.
> 
> But these exams aren't used by very many people here. I didn't even know they existed until I had been teaching for several years.


Does the judge examine the instrument that they themselves play or are an expert in?

I ask this because in the UK any grade can be examined by someone who doesn't play the instrument they are examining. So for example a tuba player marking a grade 8 flute exam. This is why they don't help for auditions either because the remarks at the end can be just the opinion of the examiner and not the actual truth of what has been played. In an audition you get at least one person on a panel who plays the instrument of the person auditioning.

What can tend to happen in the exams in the UK is that a cellist marking a cello exam will be more lenient or more strict than they would be marking a trombone exam. So your exam marks depend as much on the examiner as on how well you play. It also follows that if the examiner doesn't play the instrument they are examining the comments which are usually about a short paragraph of comments can be more or less specific.

You wouldn't ever get a several pages of comments. Usually the comments for all the tests will fit onto one side of a sheet of A4 paper. The lower end grade exams only last about 10 minutes. The top one grade 8 is I think about 20 minutes.

How long are the Canadian affiliated ones?


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## hreichgott

I don't really have a lot of information here. I assume piano is adjudicated by a pianist. I don't know about orchestral instruments.
Length depends on what pieces you choose. I would think you'd need at least a half hour to play a good Grade 10 program. The diploma levels have a maximum time limit, 60 or 75 minutes.
You seem to have a lot of detailed info on this system you dislike so much...


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## Jaws

hreichgott said:


> I don't really have a lot of information here. I assume piano is adjudicated by a pianist. I don't know about orchestral instruments.
> Length depends on what pieces you choose. I would think you'd need at least a half hour to play a good Grade 10 program. The diploma levels have a maximum time limit, 60 or 75 minutes.
> You seem to have a lot of detailed info on this system you dislike so much...


I know a lot of music teachers who teach children.


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## senza sordino

Jaws said:


> I suspect though that the Canadian system is much better than the UK one from what I have seen of it. I will ask you a question and we can see. For grade 4, one that you took. Here in the UK the difference between the bottom level required to pass and the top level mark can be equivalent to an extra grade or two. So it would be quite possible for someone who got a distinction in grade 4 to have got a pass in grade 5 or a merit in grade 5 or even a pass in grade 6 depending on the examiner. What this means is that there isn't actually a standard within each actual grade, so they aren't actually measuring anything. So for instance if someone says that they have passed grade 4 you can't actually work out from that what they can or can't do. Is this the same for the exams in Canada or do the ones that you have give an indication of how someone plays?


I got lots of feedback on my exam, quite useful. The feedback was more useful than simply stating 76%. I didn't do so well, I can't memorize, and I'd only been playing 8 months before my grade 4 exam. I took the grade 6 ten months later. And no more, and no interest now. I like the music, but I don't like scales, hearing tests, rhythm tests etc.

Yes, I expect someone who passes with distinction could have done the next level. But so what. You can skip grades, I did. Just pick one you can do. There is also nothing preventing you from choosing a level too high and failing. There is nothing that prevents you from failing one level and taking an exam at the next level later. There is no prerequisite per se. Take every exam of beginner through advanced, or only take the last -your choice. This isn't school where you must pass grade 9 math to take math 10.

I don't know the Canadian system very well, and I don't know the UK system at all, so I can't pass judgement or compare. I would like to see a repertoire list for the advance level in the UK system (violin)


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## Taggart

From the ABRSM site for grade 8:

THREE PIECES: one chosen by the candidate from each of the three Lists, A, B and C:

LIST A
1 J. S. Bach Allegro assai: 3rd movt from Concerto in E, BWV 1042 (violin to play in tuttis) (Peters EP 4593 or Henle 670)
2 J. S. Bach Allemanda or Giga: 1st or 4th movt from Partita No. 2 in D minor for Solo Violin, BWV 1004. 
Bach Three Sonatas and Three Partitas for Solo Violin, BWV 1001–1006 (Bärenreiter BA 5116) 
3 Beethoven Rondo–Allegro ma non troppo: 4th movt from Sonata in F, Op. 24 (‘Spring’). No. 5 from Beethoven Sonatas for Piano and Violin, Vol. 1 (Henle 7 )
4 Haydn Finale–Presto: 3rd movt from Concerto in C, Hob. VIIa/1 (Peters EP 4322)
5 Mozart Molto allegro: 1st movt from Sonata in A, K. 526. No. 15 from Mozart Sonatas for Piano and Violin, Vol. 3 (Henle 79) or Mozart Complete Works for Piano and Violin, Vol. 2 (Bärenreiter BA 5762)
6 J. B. G. Neruda Allegro moderato: 1st movt from Sonata in A minor. No. 3 from Bohemian Violin Sonatas, Vol. 1 (Henle 334)
7 Vivaldi Danza pastorale: 3rd movt from Concerto in E, ‘La Primavera’ (Spring), Op. 8 No. 1, RV 269 (violin to play in tuttis). Vivaldi The Four Seasons (Bärenreiter BA 6994a) (or published separately: Peters EP 9055a) 

LIST B 
1 Brahms Andante tranquillo: 2nd movt from Sonata in A, Op. 100 (Wiener Urtext UT 50012)
2 Bruch Nos 5, 6 and 7: from Schwedische Tänze, Op. 63, Vol. 1 (Simrock EE3110)
3 C. Dancla Resignation, Op. 59. Singing Violin, Book 3, arr. Doleżal (PWM 8575)
4 Grieg Allegretto quasi andantino: 2nd movt from Sonata in F, Op. 8 (Peters EP 1340)
5 Janáček Dumka. Janáček Works for Violin and Piano (Bärenreiter BA 9508)
6 Schumann Rasch und mit Feuer: No. 3 from Fantasiestücke, Op. 73 (with repeats) (Henle 421 or Peters EP 2366b) 
7 Schumann Allegretto: 2nd movt from Sonata in A minor, Op. 105. Schumann Sonatas for Piano and Violin, Op. 105, 121 (Peters EP 2367) or Schumann Sonatas for Violin and Piano, Vol. 1 (Wiener Urtext UT 50237)

LIST C
1 Alwyn Allegro e grazioso: 1st movt from Sonatina (Stainer & Bell H471)
2 Debussy Allegro vivo: 1st movt from Sonata (Henle 410 or Durand )
3 Hindemith Langsam–Sehr lebhaft: 2nd movt from Sonata in E (Schott ED 2455)
4 Kodály Adagio (Editio Musica Budapest Z.768) 
5 Kreutzer Étude No. 30 in Bb: from 42 Études ou Caprices (Peters EP 284) 
6 Sibelius No. 4: from Danses champêtres, Op. 106 (published separately: Hansen WH19410) 
7 John Williams Remembrances: from Three Pieces from Schindler’s List (observing printed cadenza) (MCA)


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## Jaws

Taggart said:


> From the ABRSM site for grade 8:
> 
> THREE PIECES: one chosen by the candidate from each of the three Lists, A, B and C:
> 
> LIST A
> 1 J. S. Bach Allegro assai: 3rd movt from Concerto in E, BWV 1042 (violin to play in tuttis) (Peters EP 4593 or Henle 670)
> 2 J. S. Bach Allemanda or Giga: 1st or 4th movt from Partita No. 2 in D minor for Solo Violin, BWV 1004.
> Bach Three Sonatas and Three Partitas for Solo Violin, BWV 1001-1006 (Bärenreiter BA 5116)
> 3 Beethoven Rondo-Allegro ma non troppo: 4th movt from Sonata in F, Op. 24 ('Spring'). No. 5 from Beethoven Sonatas for Piano and Violin, Vol. 1 (Henle 7 )
> 4 Haydn Finale-Presto: 3rd movt from Concerto in C, Hob. VIIa/1 (Peters EP 4322)
> 5 Mozart Molto allegro: 1st movt from Sonata in A, K. 526. No. 15 from Mozart Sonatas for Piano and Violin, Vol. 3 (Henle 79) or Mozart Complete Works for Piano and Violin, Vol. 2 (Bärenreiter BA 5762)
> 6 J. B. G. Neruda Allegro moderato: 1st movt from Sonata in A minor. No. 3 from Bohemian Violin Sonatas, Vol. 1 (Henle 334)
> 7 Vivaldi Danza pastorale: 3rd movt from Concerto in E, 'La Primavera' (Spring), Op. 8 No. 1, RV 269 (violin to play in tuttis). Vivaldi The Four Seasons (Bärenreiter BA 6994a) (or published separately: Peters EP 9055a)
> 
> LIST B
> 1 Brahms Andante tranquillo: 2nd movt from Sonata in A, Op. 100 (Wiener Urtext UT 50012)
> 2 Bruch Nos 5, 6 and 7: from Schwedische Tänze, Op. 63, Vol. 1 (Simrock EE3110)
> 3 C. Dancla Resignation, Op. 59. Singing Violin, Book 3, arr. Doleżal (PWM 8575)
> 4 Grieg Allegretto quasi andantino: 2nd movt from Sonata in F, Op. 8 (Peters EP 1340)
> 5 Janáček Dumka. Janáček Works for Violin and Piano (Bärenreiter BA 9508)
> 6 Schumann Rasch und mit Feuer: No. 3 from Fantasiestücke, Op. 73 (with repeats) (Henle 421 or Peters EP 2366b)
> 7 Schumann Allegretto: 2nd movt from Sonata in A minor, Op. 105. Schumann Sonatas for Piano and Violin, Op. 105, 121 (Peters EP 2367) or Schumann Sonatas for Violin and Piano, Vol. 1 (Wiener Urtext UT 50237)
> 
> LIST C
> 1 Alwyn Allegro e grazioso: 1st movt from Sonatina (Stainer & Bell H471)
> 2 Debussy Allegro vivo: 1st movt from Sonata (Henle 410 or Durand )
> 3 Hindemith Langsam-Sehr lebhaft: 2nd movt from Sonata in E (Schott ED 2455)
> 4 Kodály Adagio (Editio Musica Budapest Z.768)
> 5 Kreutzer Étude No. 30 in Bb: from 42 Études ou Caprices (Peters EP 284)
> 6 Sibelius No. 4: from Danses champêtres, Op. 106 (published separately: Hansen WH19410)
> 7 John Williams Remembrances: from Three Pieces from Schindler's List (observing printed cadenza) (MCA)


The fees for this exam are £85. For that you get to play to someone who most likely does not play the violin and can't tell if you have a good violin technique or not. A piece of A4 size paper with their opinion on how you played the pieces and a certificate. 
You don't actually have to be able to play the pieces. By this I mean if you can get your fingers in the right place and put in a few dynamics and play at the right sort of speed and mostly in tune you will pass. You wouldn't need to play is as well as you might for a school concert. My personal feeling is that £85 is a lot for someone's personal idea of how you play. You could do just as well by playing for a friend and asking them what they thought of it.


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## Taggart

I only popped on here to supply senza sordino with a list.



Jaws said:


> You don't actually have to be able to play the pieces. By this I mean if you can get your fingers in the right place and put in a few dynamics and play at the right sort of speed and mostly in tune you will pass.


Interestingly, you miss out tonality - "sufficiently reliable intonation to maintain tonality" and "adequate tonal awareness". You also miss out musicality - "some realisation of musical shape and/or detail" and "some musical involvement". Also it's not just speed, it's also having "a generally stable pulse" and "overall rhythmic accuracy". Much of this can be judged by anybody with a good ear and sense of tonality and rhythm and musical awareness. It's _*not *_about violin technique as such. They're not meant to be teachers. They are marking on the quality of musical result. (All quotes from the ABRSM mark scheme)

OK most candidates aiming to be musicians will be looking for something like a "good" distinction - which will mean excellent tone and vibrato, first class musicianship, excellent rhythmic sense. Not only that, you have the aural tests and the sight reading which will be quite demanding. For example: "to identify the cadence at the end of a continuing phrase as perfect, imperfect, interrupted or 
plagal"; then "to identify the three chords (including their positions) forming the above cadential progression".

You also seem not to have taken into account the difficulty of the pieces.


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## Ingélou

Jaws said:


> Thanks for the syllabus for grade 3 it is actually worse than I thought it would be. Fiddle Time Sprinters is the kind of book that has little pictures of children playing and the like. There is such a huge repertoire for violin, you would think that they could find more original pieces than they have?


You have picked out 'Fiddle Time Sprinters', but this is merely _*a convenient source*_ for one of the additional pieces that Grade 3 candidates can choose, the Hornpipe from Handel's Water Music - hardly a juvenile piece. And if some adults are so fey that they can't cope with a few children's graphics, they're at liberty to choose another piece from the main menu.

I am going to reproduce here part of my reply to one of your posts from my Teaching Styles thread (Strings Forum) to make the point that the Music Boards are well aware that it's not only children who take Grade 3 violin. They provide a varied repertoire to choose from, organised chronologically, and almost none of them are children's tunes.

Reproducing my post:

*In my grade 3 exam, I chose to play La Rotta, a medieval dance - Carolan's Air, by the blind Irish harper - and Puttin' on the Ritz by Irving Berlin. None of these are children's works.

Other works on offer included Traumerei, meant for children but often appreciated by adults, a Corelli Gavotte, a Mozart piece, the Witches' Dance by Paganini, and Jardanyl's Hungarian Dance. In the supplementary music, you could also pick a tango - hardly kids' material.

Music exams are not just about performance, though a large part of the marks is given for that. It is also about scales and arpeggios, recognising major and minor keys, recognising time signatures, being able to reproduce musical phrases, and sight reading. None of these are skills unsuited for adults.

In preparing for the exam, I significantly improved my timing and my sightreading, both of which were deficient. I had not improved them in two years of constant practising and playing, but a few weeks of exam focus did the trick. Such is human psychology. 

*
In music, as in every subject, exams have their limitations. But they also have their uses in providing a focus, structured material, the opportunity to learn *about* music as well as to play it, and to mature psychologically by coping with the exam system.

Naturally taking exams is no substitute for playing music with other musicians - but whoever said it was?


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## Jaws

Taggart said:


> I only popped on here to supply senza sordino with a list.
> 
> Interestingly, you miss out tonality - "sufficiently reliable intonation to maintain tonality" and "adequate tonal awareness". You also miss out musicality - "some realisation of musical shape and/or detail" and "some musical involvement". Also it's not just speed, it's also having "a generally stable pulse" and "overall rhythmic accuracy". Much of this can be judged by anybody with a good ear and sense of tonality and rhythm and musical awareness. It's _*not *_about violin technique as such. They're not meant to be teachers. They are marking on the quality of musical result. (All quotes from the ABRSM mark scheme)
> 
> OK most candidates aiming to be musicians will be looking for something like a "good" distinction - which will mean excellent tone and vibrato, first class musicianship, excellent rhythmic sense. Not only that, you have the aural tests and the sight reading which will be quite demanding. For example: "to identify the cadence at the end of a continuing phrase as perfect, imperfect, interrupted or
> plagal"; then "to identify the three chords (including their positions) forming the above cadential progression".
> 
> You also seem not to have taken into account the difficulty of the pieces.


Yes I agree with you this is what the syllabus says about the exams, and it seems very good from an adult point of view when you read this, but it isn't what happens in practice. You can pass grade 8 by only copying by ear what you hear on their CD that you can buy with the music. You don't need to be able to work out rhythms or keep a beat, you only need to be able to copy accurately. I have come across lots of examples of people who have passed grade 8 who can't count and some of them sound as if they started playing less than a year ago. Some of them can only play exam pieces because "normal" music doesn't come with a CD for you to copy.

I am not sure what you mean by difficulty. I find all pieces equally difficult. I would find a piece of music on the grade 3 oboe syllabus at least as difficult as one on the grade 8 syllabus. The difficult part of a piece of music is making it sound interesting by playing a good interpretation and trying to get as close to what the composer intended to communicate as possible. So fingerings are the easiest bit, you just learn that by a bit of repetition. Doing the interpretation is much harder. Slow pieces are much harder than fast pieces. The shorter the notes and the faster the speed the easier the piece. Probably one of the most difficult pieces would be something like a hymn tune, or the melody line of a Bach chorale. I don't see a anything like a Bach chorale on the grade 8 music list, so what do you mean by difficulty?


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## Jaws

Ingélou said:


> You have picked out 'Fiddle Time Sprinters', but this is merely _*a convenient source*_ for one of the additional pieces that Grade 3 candidates can choose, the Hornpipe from Handel's Water Music - hardly a juvenile piece. And if some adults are so fey that they can't cope with a few children's graphics, they're at liberty to choose another piece from the main menu.
> 
> I am going to reproduce here part of my reply to one of your posts from my Teaching Styles thread (Strings Forum) to make the point that the Music Boards are well aware that it's not only children who take Grade 3 violin. They provide a varied repertoire to choose from, organised chronologically, and almost none of them are children's tunes.
> 
> Reproducing my post:
> 
> *In my grade 3 exam, I chose to play La Rotta, a medieval dance - Carolan's Air, by the blind Irish harper - and Puttin' on the Ritz by Irving Berlin. None of these are children's works.
> 
> Other works on offer included Traumerei, meant for children but often appreciated by adults, a Corelli Gavotte, a Mozart piece, the Witches' Dance by Paganini, and Jardanyl's Hungarian Dance. In the supplementary music, you could also pick a tango - hardly kids' material.
> 
> Music exams are not just about performance, though a large part of the marks is given for that. It is also about scales and arpeggios, recognising major and minor keys, recognising time signatures, being able to reproduce musical phrases, and sight reading. None of these are skills unsuited for adults.
> 
> In preparing for the exam, I significantly improved my timing and my sightreading, both of which were deficient. I had not improved them in two years of constant practising and playing, but a few weeks of exam focus did the trick. Such is human psychology.
> 
> *
> In music, as in every subject, exams have their limitations. But they also have their uses in providing a focus, structured material, the opportunity to learn *about* music as well as to play it, and to mature psychologically by coping with the exam system.
> 
> Naturally taking exams is no substitute for playing music with other musicians - but whoever said it was?


The problem is that what it says in the syllabus and what actually happens when someone takes an exam are completely different.

You could have passed grade 3 by buying the CD that goes with the music and learning it all by ear. People do this. So when someone says that they have passed grade 3 there is no way that anyone can tell whether they have learned the pieces from the music or simply by copying by ear what is on the CD. From an adult point of view I think most people would be surprised that you can pass an exam just by copying but you can. People pass grade 8 like this. The result is adults who can only play exam pieces because they can't read music or work out rhythms unless they have heard the music on a CD first and can copy it. This is the main reason why I don't advise adults to take these exams, because I am sure that you will agree that someone who can only copy is going to have a very limited experience of music, and no one can use the exam result as any form of qualification. At about £400 to take grade 8 this seems to me to be an expensive non qualification. (The £400 includes the exam fees, the cost of the music the cost of paying an accompanist and the cost of the lessons to prepare for the exam.)

There is another problem as well. ABRSM grade exams require you to learn scales and arpeggios from memory. Many music college professors regard learning scales by memory as a waste of time. The reason for this is that scales and arpeggios are aids to keys within pieces of music that you are reading. I agree if you are playing jazz or folk music then being able to play them by ear is useful, however you often find that people who can read them can also play them by ear. The problems start if someone learns them by fingering patterns on the fingerboard without relation to key or written note but just by "this finger follows this finger and then I change position here." A good friend of mine who studied at the Guildhall College of Music and Drama has been pointing out to the associated board for years that if you put a fast metronome marking at the beginning of the scales you will soon find out who has learned them by reading the patterns and who is working them out as they go along. The AB's reason for having people learn them by memory is that it is the only way that you can tell if someone has learned them properly. This is not a musical reason. The most important thing is to read them because this gives you the eye to hand coordination needed for good sight reading. Good sight reading helps someone to learn new pieces faster if they are learning them from the sheet music, and so increases the amount of repertoire you can learn. Lots of music is made up of scale and arpeggio patterns but unless you read scales and arpeggios when you play them you don't get the instant "in through the eye and out through the finger without thinking about it" that is needed for good sight reading.

Because you can get a similar mark for grade 3 whether you have learned the music properly from the sheet music or whether you have learned the repertoire simply by copying and can only play exam pieces, is why grades are not standards in music except in relation to each other.

However I am pleased that you found that taking this exam was useful to you.


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## Ingélou

@Jaws, you make these statements but I see no logical reason why I should prefer *your merely anecdotal assertions* to the literature of the exam boards (staffed by musicians & music scholars) - the advice of my two teachers - my own experience and common sense - and any number of threads on the two musicians' forums that I belong to. After all, I don't know these friends of yours - or how good they are - or how knowledgeable.

There are con-merchants in every walk of life, so sure, there may be a few people who 'wing' a pass in exams & can't read music. But in general the sight reading would give them away, and they certainly wouldn't get *very good* marks. And most people who enter for music exams can read music. You do seem to have some rum acquaintances.

Most music experts think that learning to play scales and arpeggios *without* music makes for more sound learning, as far as both brains and muscles are concerned. It's not as if a player couldn't recognise a scale when it's written out for him or her - that's how most of us learned them the first time we played them! Knowing scales intimately without music certainly helps *me* better to understand the fingering of keys, their character, and techniques I can use when sight-reading.

You obviously live in a musical environment that is decidedly unusual. Fine. But don't try to force what suits *you* on the rest of the musical adults of Britain. We can make up our own minds based on the testimony of experts, logic, experience, common sense, and our own wishes. That's what being an adult means. Nor do we need your instruction about musical technique and your idiosyncratic assertions about expression or difficulty. What reason can you give that we should follow *your *advice rather than the musical experts we read or learn from in real life?

You don't think exams are much cop, and you're entitled to your opinion. But you appear to be making the same points about exams over and over again. I note that a large proportion of the posts you've made & the threads that you've started since joining TC are on this very same topic. But making your points in the same way ten or eleven times does not make them any more convincing, imo.

Taggart came on to this thread to answer a question that senza sordino asked about the grade 8 syllabus. I came on because I noticed that you'd picked out *one* of the supplementary sources for the grade 3 syllabus and argued from the fact that the book contained some children's graphics that *the whole of the syllabus* was childish. I pointed out that in fact *all the pieces are respected parts of the adult repertoire*.

By picking out one minor detail, was your post intended to mislead - or what? 

We have expressed our point of view pretty fully - that exams are not the be-all and end-all, but that they can be useful. So we see no need to come on this thread again. Best just to get on with playing, studying & listening, or posting on threads where a more interesting interplay of opinion takes place.

But we wish you well in your own musical life.


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## Jaws

Ingélou said:


> @Jaws, you make these assertions but I see no logical reason why I should prefer *your merely anecdotal assertions* to the literature of the exam boards, the advice of my two teachers, my own experience and common sense, and any number of threads on the two musicians' forums that I belong to. After all, I don't know these friends of yours - or how good they are - or how knowledgeable.
> 
> There are con-merchants in every walk of life, so sure, there may be a few people who 'wing' a pass in exams & can't read music. But in general the sight reading would give them away, and they certainly wouldn't get *very good* marks. And most people who enter for music exams can read music. You do seem to have some rum acquaintances.
> 
> Most music experts think that learning to play scales and arpeggios *without* music makes for more sound learning, as far as both brains and muscles are concerned. It's not as if a player couldn't recognise a scale when it's written out for him or her - that's how most of us learned them the first time we played them! Knowing scales intimately without music certainly helps *me* better to understand the fingering of keys, their character, and techniques I can use when sight-reading.
> 
> You obviously live in a musical environment that is decidedly unusual. Fine. But don't try to force what suits *you* on the rest of the musical adults of Britain. We can make up our own minds based on the testimony of experts, logic, experience, common sense, and our own wishes. That's what being an adult means. Nor do we need your instruction about musical technique and your bald assertions about expression or difficulty. What reason can you give that we should follow *your *advice rather than the musical experts we read or learn from in real life?
> 
> You don't think exams are much cop, and you're entitled to your opinion. But you appear to be making the same points about exams over and over again. Making your points in the same way six or seven times does not make them any more convincing, imo.
> 
> Taggart came on to this thread to answer a question that senza sordino asked about the grade 8 syllabus. I came on because I noticed that you'd picked out *one* of the supplementary sources for the grade 3 syllabus and argued from the fact that the book contained some children's graphics that *the whole of the syllabus* was childish. I pointed out that *all the pieces are respected parts of the adult repertoire*. Was your post intended to mislead then - or what?
> 
> We have no need to come on this thread again & I don't suppose that we will. But we wish you well.


Well I am not going to argue with you.

You could be right about the unusual environment. Many of my friends are professional musicians, peripatetic teachers, ex peripatetic teachers, experienced amateur players who have been playing baroque instruments and modern instruments in chamber music , orchestral music , amateur opera performances, musicals, and orchestras accompanying choir arrangements as well as military musicians who play either in voluntary bands or professional military bands. I am an ex peripatetic teacher, and have played in professional orchestras when young.

I am not known in grade music forums because I now only work and play with adults who play for fun.


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## senza sordino

Taggart

Thank-you for the list you provided above. One thing that I noticed is that the Canadian RCM list for the equivalent grade is larger. More choice perhaps. In the Canadian exam rules it says you can substitute with prior approval. 

I noticed Schindler's List in the syllabus. I should look for this music to play for myself.


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## Ingélou

I think the Canadian rule is a very good idea. At grade 8, I think you should be able to choose something of your own, maybe even be required to, much as in English A-level exams you could submit an extended essay on the writer of your choice. It's good to be able to go deeper into something you love, and in the case of music to show how you'd interpret a much-admired piece of music. The prior approval would weed out anything grossly unsuitable.

Taggart has told me that Trinity, the 'other' music board in the UK, may do something of the sort - he's to look into it. 
(How nice to have one's own personal researcher! )


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## PetrB

All I care to say is apart from the cost of lessons, whether it is _an additional_ £85 to take a lower level exam or £400 to take the higher level exam, and since those certificates _get you nothing which cannot also be had by merely taking lessons and auditioning (with a distinguished grade 8, you will still have to audition and take theory placement exams to gain entry into the higher level music education programs of uni or conservatory),_ I think that money better spent on more lessons vs. exams.

Exams were an inclusive part of the deal when I attended an arts prep school, later conservatory, and later university -- they included jurors, three at least, none of them your private instrumental teacher.

At the lower level of private studies, if your teacher does not / cannot arrange for you to play at least for their other students, creating that performance / jury performing under tension situation, check you themselves on scales, the theory you have learned, all as inclusive as a part of the lessons and inclusive as to the cost of lessons, something is a bit rotten in the state of music grade levels.


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## Taggart

Trinity Syllabus

Three pieces are to be played, at least one from each group, to form a balanced programme. Instead 
of one item, candidates may offer their own composition (see page 10).


Group A

The following pieces are contained in the book Violin Grade 8 Pieces 2010–2015 published by Trinity:

Albinoni Allegro (1st movement from Concerto in A)
de Falla Danza ritual del fuego (from El amor brujo)
Schubert Allegro moderato (1st movement from Sonata in A, op. posth. 162 D. 574)
Yates Movements

The following alternative pieces are also available:

J S Bach Concerto in A minor, BWV 1041, 1st movt Bärenreiter BA5189-90
J S Bach Concerto in E, BWV 1042, 3rd movt: Allegro assai Bärenreiter BA518990/Faber
J S Bach Partita no. 3 in E, BWV 1006, 3rd movt: Gavotte en Rondo 
(from Three Sonatas and Three Partitas for Solo Violin BWV 1001–1006) Bärenreiter
Beethoven Sonata in G, op. 30 no. 3, 1st movt: Allegro assai Henle HN8/MDS
Brahms Hungarian Dance no. 7 in G (from Romantic Violinist) Boosey M060102042
Mozart Concerto no. 3 in G, KV 216, 1st movt: Allegro Bärenreiter BA4865-90
Mozart Sonata in A, K. 526, 1st movt: Molto allegro 
(from Sonatas for Violin & Piano vol. 3) Henle HN79/MDS
Persichetti Capriccio (from Serenade no. 4) Elkan–Vogel/UMP
J Tákacs Vivace Hongarese 
(from Sonata for Violin & Piano op. 6) Doblinger 03 282/MDS

Group B

The following pieces are contained in the book Violin Grade 8 Pieces 2010–2015 published by Trinity:

Hindson The Big 5–0*
Lalo Guitare op. 28
Previn Song (from Tango, Song and Dance)
Sibelius Mazurka (no. 1 from Five Violin Pieces op. 81)
Tartini Affettuoso (1st movement from Sonata in G minor, op. 1 no. 10)

The following alternative pieces are also available:

Bartók arr. Székely Romanian Folk Dances nos. 1, 2, 5 and 6 Universal UE8474/MDS
Copland Nocturne Boosey 19766
Fiorillo Study no. 28 (from 36 Studies ed. Galamian) IMC/MDS
Granados arr. Kreisler Dance Espagnole Schott BSS31140/MDS
Kodály Adagio Edition Musica Budapest/MDS
Svendsen Romanze op. 26 Peters EP9016
Williams Remembrances MCA/Hal Leonard HL849954 (from Three Pieces from Schindler’s List)

*Denotes unaccompanied repertoire.

So not exactly a replacement but a DIY exercise. The main comment is "The technical and musical demand must be comparable to the listed pieces at the same level." At grade 8 the piece would run for about five minutes. Also note the comment about a balanced programme.


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## Ingélou

@PetrB, :tiphat: I agree that the format should be improved. Your 'jury' sounds a good idea, but in the UK, the system is very 'packaged'. I suppose it's a matter of logistics. I also agree that exams don't 'prove' anything for someone who wants to join an orchestra or be a performer. 

But exam-taking in general is linked to the way we organise our society. Employers like certificates because it says that candidates have reached a certain level. I suppose having a grade 8 would count if you wanted a job in a music shop, say. In an ideal world we wouldn't take these shortcuts to finding out how good someone is, but we don't live in one, and bits of paper seem to count for a lot.

An example - when I returned to the violin, I decided, after a few months, to buy a better instrument. I thought I'd ask our local luthier to find me one, so I went to the shop, but he was out. The manager of the shop tried to interest me in a £2000 early twentieth century ex-orchestral French violin. It was twice what I wanted to pay, but he was persuasive. Then the luthier came in & I talked to him about buying this French violin; he was discouraging - 'What grade have you reached?' he asked, and I muttered that I hadn't taken any exams & wasn't thinking of doing so. 

I can't see at all why he asked the question, but he did. However, I was very happy with the new instrument he ordered for me, and I saved £1000. 

Apologies to Jaws for coming on the thread again - it obviously has a siren-like attraction, as it's one of the first things I did today on my birthday!


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## PetrB

Ingélou said:


> @PetrB, :tiphat: I agree that the format should be improved. Your 'jury' sounds a good idea, but in the UK, the system is very 'packaged'. I suppose it's a matter of logistics.


I cheerfully disagree, having lived abroad for ca. eleven years, there is an inherent tendency in Europe to job-protect and corner markets, a left over from the guilds. Some of this does protect the consumer, i.e. you aren't prone to fall in with some joejane who has just hung up their shingle and knows beans about what they claim to teach, while a lot of the rest is keeping a lot of (imo rather unnecessary) extras in good employ. To an extent, that is the business making 'regulations' which are entirely self-serving to those who practice within the business.

I would not be surprised if the next step is a 'guild law' that anyone hanging up their shingle with good credentials and experience but without the 'grade level teaching certificate' are either fined are barred from teaching -- such do these systems tend to run.

Are all the teacher evil, not doing their job and merely on the take? Of course not. But a lot of people are paid to shuffle unnecessary administrative papers, paid to travel to exam sites and paid well to listen to and adjudicate all those exams, those 'unnecessary' exams 

Across the pond, anyway, and in those places where there are not yet established the 'grade level' system for lower level training, the way the system works is not exactly what us Yanks would call _free enterprise_

With all due respects and best regards.


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## Ingélou

Well, I can't 'like' your post, as I too cheerfully disagree  - but I do respect it!

PS - responding to your point below, and not wanting to cumber Jaws' thread  :

I am not sure where this 'exam fee of £400' idea comes from. I think Jaws was adding the cost of lessons and materials to the exam fee. But I only count the exam entrance fee of about £40 as an expense; all subjects in this country have an exam entrance fee. The sheet music, scales & sight-reading books have all been really useful, and the lessons I'm paying for not to collect bits of paper but because I want to learn with an excellent teacher. I don't see materials & lessons as being an unjustifiable expense for anyone as they help the learning process.

Exams in general, and music exams also, are flawed and too much emphasis is placed on them. But it is still useful to have a system of checking and accreditation. Some such system usually exists in a society, whether Mandarin China, or the payment of teachers by results system in Victorian Britain. Both were flawed systems; but better than buying commissions or having livings in the church saved for you by wealthy patrons. A meritocracy is better than an oligarchy of powerful families, imo.

Music exams are narrow and short. But I'd add that in the UK, exams in all other subjects have been regularly shaken up, & it's led to grade inflation (now being curbed) & to people being uncertain about standards across subjects and about what an exam pass actually means. This has led in some cases to universities and employers setting their own tests. Changes coming thick & fast & impelled by political initiatives can be resented by teachers & parents.

The music boards are more independent. So music exams have remained ossified but well-respected generally. They may need reform but in so many subjects the baby has been thrown out with the bathwater. And in the subjects which have been shaken up, there is even more paper shuffling & additional advisers. I am not prepared to label the music professionals of my country as engaging in some sort of racket. Nor am I ready to say that there's anything wrong with human beings who like to have a tangible & recognisable sign that they've made progress.

And so - *I politely disagree.*
I should have made that my sole post on this thread really. Still...


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## PetrB

Ingélou said:


> Well, I can't 'like' your post, as I too cheerfully disagree  - but I do respect it!


An £85 to £400 exam fee may seem normal in your neck of the woods. Here, in my neck of the woods, it _screams_ "PADDING."


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## Couac Addict

In France, there's 3 cycles (grades). Each takes about 4 years or so. For exams, you play one piece and a pass moves you to the next cycle.

Like everywhere else there's no national grading standard. There's no relationship between schools due to the subjective nature of the exam and students vary from school to school. Which is why no orchestra cares about it. The exam isn't pointless but it is only there to prevent you from attempting something too difficult.

I think what the OP is saying is that students are mislead into believing that passing 3 cycles/8 grades etc are what orchestras look for when hiring. They aren't. They want to know how well you play in an ensemble.

For orchestra auditions over here (we don't do the open audition thing), you send some audio and they'll whittle it down to about 3 and call them in for an audition. The winner gets a "trial run" with the orchestra for an agreed period of time. When that period is finished, the musicians and conductor each vote for you to stay or leave.


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