# Your feelings about ballet?



## Weston (Jul 11, 2008)

After expanding my horizons with opera, I thought I'd go out on a limb and look into another art form, ballet. I have a number of ballets in my music collection, but have never actually seen one performed by dancers and whatnot. In my culture this sort of thing has often been viewed as a bit effete, but as an illustrator I think I could see how the grace of the human form could conceivably enhance the music.

What do you think of this art form? A lot of composers seemed to favor it. Does actually watching a bunch of tutus swirling about enhance the music in any way? Is there some kind of story or program depicted that we 21st century folks can relate to? 

And are there worthwhile DVD's available? I might be more interested something very modern I think if there is such a thing. Also is there any appeal of the entire ballet as opposed to the various suites composers produce for purely orchestral concerts?

I know, that was a lot of questions.


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## Polednice (Sep 13, 2009)

I haven't seen that many ballets myself. The first I ever saw (which was just a couple of years ago), was an ENO production of Tchaikovsky's _Sleeping Beauty_. The immersion in the whole fantasy was brilliant, with some truly excellent staging and costumes, and, Tchaikovsky's superb dramatism being what it is, I felt transported right from the opening bars. Having said that, however, it doesn't strike me that there's anything to be achieved in ballet that couldn't equally be achieved in opera, and, while certain physical feats are truly stunning, I don't think I'd find repeated exposure that interesting.

So, for me at least, attending a ballet would just be so I could hear the entire work, as it's not often (ever?) that concert programmes will have more than sizeable extracts. I could take or leave the dancing.


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## itywltmt (May 29, 2011)

My youngest daughter is heavily involved in dance (ballet, jazz, lyrical, tap, etc, etc) and I have more than my fair share of exposure to the art form,

Enough to know that limiting yourself to ballet is doing a disservice to other "choreographic" works.

I personally am more of a fan of the late 19th/early 20th century music, and so the whole set of ballets written for Diaghilev's Ballets Russes is a good place to start... These will reveal many of Stravinsky's most famous ballets (Firebird, Petrouchka and The Rite of Spring), Falla's Three Cornered Hat, Ravel's Daphnis et Chloe, and many more.


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## Huilunsoittaja (Apr 6, 2010)

I freakin' love ballet!!!! I don't like watching it that much, it creeps me out, but I just _adore_ the music!

Russians are the bomb when it comes to ballet music: Tchaikovsky, Glazunov, Gliere, Prokofiev, Shostakovich, Khatchaturian.


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## StlukesguildOhio (Dec 25, 2006)

I have a number of ballets... especially by the great Russian composers: Tchaikovsky, Stravinsky, Prokofiev, etc... I don't own any ballet DVDs nor have I ever seen a ballet in full... but excerpts from any number of ballets (or French operas that employed ballet/dance) have led me to think that indeed these would bring a new experience to the music... perhaps not unlike seeing opera in person as opposed to merely listening to the music.

A few excerpts that have piqued my interest:


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

I have a general (or basic) knowledge of the ballet area, but what I've heard I like a lot. I also like ballet music from operas. My favourites are probably the Russian guys, I like their flair for colour and sense of drama. But I'm pretty flexible, eg. recently I've been listening to Stanford's massive _Requiem_ on Naxos, and the filler on the 2 disc set is a suite from one of his operas, which includes two ballet items (absolutely love them, especially how he gives the double basses a huge "star turn"). Things like Schubert's ballet music from _Rosamunde_ are also firm favourites.

As for the watching aspect, I did see some ballet on television, and I liked the relaxing/entertainment aspect. One from "left field" that really grabbed me was an Aboriginal dance company's production, here in Australia, of Stravinsky's "Rite of Spring." It was as if this work, concieved by a white guy imagining the life of the "savages" had been taken back by one of the (if not the) oldest continuous cultures on the planet. They did it well, certain scenes/body movements still stick in my mind strongly. Another one was a Australian production of a reworking of Berlioz's viola concerto "Harold in Italy" into a ballet (I also saw this on tv). I was like in my early teens, and one of the lead dancers, I think she played a kind of sphinx, she had bare breasts, so no prizes for guessing what aspect of this production my mind (or eyes!) were on all the way through this piece :lol: ...


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## Pieck (Jan 12, 2011)

Huilunsoittaja said:


> I freakin' love ballet!!!! I don't like watching it that much, it creeps me out, but I just _adore_ the music!
> 
> Russians are the bomb when it comes to ballet music: Tchaikovsky, Glazunov, Gliere, Prokofiev, Shostakovich, Khatchaturian.


Arent you forgeting someone, starting with an 'S' ending with 'travinsky'?


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

Pieck said:


> Arent you forgeting someone, starting with an 'S' ending with 'travinsky'?


Well I think we all know that member Huilunsoittaja isn't crazy about Mr Stravinsky. I don't have a problem with that, to be honest. Huilunsoittaja's passion & depth of appreciation for the other Russian guys - & not only their ballet works, but many other things they did - kind of makes up for her relative disinterest in Igor's stuff. Indeed, I admire Huilunsoittaja going so deep into an aspect of the repertoire which, even in my almost 30 years of listening on & off to classical, have only scratched the surface of...


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## regressivetransphobe (May 16, 2011)

I like the music; I don't really care about the dancing anorexics.


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## Meaghan (Jul 31, 2010)

I am an avid ballet-goer and admire dance as an art form very highly. And I don't just admire the amazing gymnastic feats ballet dancers perform--seeing that as the only appeal of ballet seems to me a bit like treating flashy virtuosity as the only appeal of musical performance. Really excellent dancers are capable of being as subtle and emotionally expressive with their bodies as the best musicians are with their instruments or voices, which is why I love watching ballet. I do prefer 20th century and contemporary choreography, though--very classical ballet tends to bore me, and I also have a hard time sitting through the popular Tchaikovsky/Balanchine narrative ballets. And I think watching ballet can enhance one's enjoyment of the music in sort of a similar way to watching opera instead of just listening to it. A time I remember this really happening for me was when I saw a recently choreographed version of Ravel's _Bolero_ by Niccolo Fonte. For me, the dance gave greater meaning to a piece I had found rather empty before.


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## Huilunsoittaja (Apr 6, 2010)

Pieck said:


> Arent you forgeting someone, starting with an 'S' ending with 'travinsky'?


Oh yeah...
Stravinsky 
Well, I really do like Firebird, but that's about it.


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## Weston (Jul 11, 2008)

Huilunsoittaja said:


> I freakin' love ballet!!!! I don't like watching it that much, it creeps me out, but I just _adore_ the music!


I know what you mean, but some of the examples posted here could change my mind -- about the being creeped out I mean.



StlukesguildOhio said:


> A few excerpts that have piqued my interest:


 ! Still scandalous!

I have seen the Rameau many times and I think that's what got me interested in this subject, though I've thought of it as an opera. I love that drummer guy. His facial expressions are so tongue in cheek. And my, isn't that baritone a lucky guy?

Another piece that has got me interested in the idea of dance and production to accompany the music is this bizarre feat, musically and acrobatically, from a Zappa production, though the video is kind of crummy. As some will consider this crossover, purists should skip over it:






The Delibes piece is like watching an opera without all the embarrassing bellyaching, and this is what I was hoping for. Nice stage productions.



Meaghan said:


> . . . Really excellent dancers are capable of being as subtle and emotionally expressive with their bodies as the best musicians are with their instruments or voices, which is why I love watching ballet.


This too is what I was hoping for (my link above notwithstanding).


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## science (Oct 14, 2010)

I don't know ballet, but I recently watched Adam's Giselle and enjoyed it in an entirely natural, non-ironic, non-elite, non-intellectual way. It was just 90 minutes of interesting, intelligent, pretty entertainment.


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## Aramis (Mar 1, 2009)

Ballet is great artform with unique possibilities and laughing at it part of this anti-snobistic snobism when geezers want to look like natural and non-snobbish fellows that don't get fooled by stupidity of high culture and can't stand opera, or even more - the ballet. "Does actually watching a bunch of tutus swirling about enhance the music in any way?" - och, no, absolutely, there is no way that visual spectacle with dancers and choreography of highest quality could anyhow enhance the music and experience it offers.

I also have a DVD to recommend:


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## Pieck (Jan 12, 2011)

Aramis said:


>


The only DVD ballet I got, I enjoyed watching it, although I'm too lazy to dedicate to it that amount of time (it's applied on opera too).


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## karenpat (Jan 16, 2009)

I grew up with Tchaikovsky's ballet suites and my sisters and I all took ballet lessons at one point (pun not intended). I think ballet and modern dance can be very interesting, but I think that with the possible exception of Tchaikovsky (and perhaps Prokofiev's Romeo and Juliet) it would always make more sense to watch the ballet rather than just listen to the music.


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## Huilunsoittaja (Apr 6, 2010)

StlukesguildOhio said:


>


HOHOHO!  That was worse than I even imagined it. Surely the premiere in 1919 was nothing like that! Way to go wearing costumes that make it look like they're not wearing anything! :devil:

Well, this further hardens me against Stravinsky.

This is what I prefer, to watch even:




About a girl with a little more honor!! :angel:


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## Vaneyes (May 11, 2010)

Ballet gives me happy feet.


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

Huilunsoittaja said:


> HOHOHO!  That was worse than I even imagined it. Surely the premiere in 1919 was nothing like that! Way to go wearing costumes that make it look like they're not wearing anything! :devil:
> 
> Well, this further hardens me against Stravinsky.


Hehe, here's how it would have looked at the premiere (actually premiered in 1913):






And here's the most scandalous contemporary performance to date (Forget _look_ like they're not wearing anything... WARNING: Full Nudity!)






My how society has progressed! 
However Preljocaj's performance blows me away as one of the most brutally powerful things I've ever seen... I bet it's what Stravinsky truly dreamed of when he wrote it.


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## Huilunsoittaja (Apr 6, 2010)

DAHHHH!  Enough of that devilish stuff! Accursed art! It's about Devil worship, and the music serves the same purpose! 

Can I even put into words anymore how angry Stravinsky makes me??? Sure, he can play the innocent martyr for modern music, but he's no martyr to me!


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## Tapkaara (Apr 18, 2006)

Huilunsoittaja said:


> DAHHHH!  Enough of that devilish stuff! Accursed art! It's about Devil worship, and the music serves the same purpose!
> 
> Can I even put into words anymore how angry Stravinsky makes me??? Sure, he can play the innocent martyr for modern music, but he's no martyr to me!


Devil worship?


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## Tapkaara (Apr 18, 2006)

Some of my favorite music comes from ballet. The pieces written for Les Ballets Russes is usually pretty good stuff. I don't care about the dancing at all. In a way, I think of the music from ballets as extended tone poems because it's program music telling a story.


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## Weston (Jul 11, 2008)

Couchie said:


> However Preljocaj's performance blows me away as one of the most brutally powerful things I've ever seen... I bet it's what Stravinsky truly dreamed of when he wrote it.


Hmmm - I didn't think the dancer was _literally_ supposed to dance herself to death. I found this a little uncomfortable to watch -- not because of the nudity but because of her exhaustion. It looked real.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

@ Tapkaara -

Agreed 110 per cent. I see little boundaries between various genres of music, or even so-called "eras" (but that's another story). If the way you kind of "take in" a ballet is by approaching it as a tone poem, then that's very good, actually shows a kind of critical thinking, thought processing, lateral thinking, these things. My maybe "oddball" opinion is that there are few boundaries between various types of music, there are only barriers in people's minds which stop them from appreciating more things in a natural, individual way...

BTW - Welcome back to the forum! Good to see you back here...


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## Tapkaara (Apr 18, 2006)

Andre said:


> @ Tapkaara -
> 
> Agreed 110 per cent. I see little boundaries between various genres of music, or even so-called "eras" (but that's another story). If the way you kind of "take in" a ballet is by approaching it as a tone poem, then that's very good, actually shows a kind of critical thinking, thought processing, lateral thinking, these things. My maybe "oddball" opinion is that there are few boundaries between various types of music, there are only barriers in people's minds which stop them from appreciating more things in a natural, individual way...
> 
> BTW - Welcome back to the forum! Good to see you back here...


Thank you Andre!


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## regressivetransphobe (May 16, 2011)

Huilunsoittaja said:


> DAHHHH!  Enough of that devilish stuff! Accursed art! It's about Devil worship, and the music serves the same purpose!
> 
> Can I even put into words anymore how angry Stravinsky makes me??? Sure, he can play the innocent martyr for modern music, but he's no martyr to me!


This is funny satire, thanks for the laugh


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## Huilunsoittaja (Apr 6, 2010)

Tapkaara said:


> Devil worship?


Well, firstly, any religion that requires human sacrifice is satanic worship, and secondly, worshiping a fertility god(s) is actually worshiping a real demonic force. I cannot tolerate that whatsoever, even in art. It sickens me.

@ regressivetransphobe : Satire? actually, I meant it.  I guess I was just sounding like any of those critics who caused that riot at the premiere (1913, my mistake), which wasn't really right to do in itself. But what if they were even a little right?


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## Tapkaara (Apr 18, 2006)

Huilunsoittaja said:


> Well, firstly, any religion that requires human sacrifice is satanic worship, and secondly, worshiping a fertility god(s) is actually worshiping a real demonic force. I cannot tolerate that whatsoever, even in art. It sickens me.
> 
> @ regressivetransphobe : Satire? actually, I meant it.  I guess I was just sounding like any of those critics who caused that riot at the premiere (1913, my mistake), which wasn't really right to do in itself. But what if they were even a little right?


I suppose A Night on Bald Mountain must REALLY not be one of your favorites?


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## Huilunsoittaja (Apr 6, 2010)

Tapkaara said:


> I suppose A Night on Bald Mountain must REALLY not be one of your favorites?


Well, it's one thing to depict demons or ghosts, another thing to worship them.
If you challenge me any farther I'm gonna run out of defenses.


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## regressivetransphobe (May 16, 2011)

Maybe this will be more up your alley.


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## Meaghan (Jul 31, 2010)

Couchie said:


> Hehe, here's how it would have looked at the premiere (actually premiered in 1913):


Thanks for posting this! I've seen a couple different productions of the _Rite_, but never the original choreography. The people wearing the beekeeper hoods and the bears (wolves?) are rather creepy. Neat!


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## Tapkaara (Apr 18, 2006)

Huilunsoittaja said:


> Well, it's one thing to depict demons or ghosts, another thing to worship them.
> If you challenge me any farther I'm gonna run out of defenses.


I don't want to get too off-topic here, but I find this interesting. NOBM DOES depict worship as it is a depiction on a witches' sabbath. And it would certainly be more Satanic/demonic than Le Sacre.

And if you are a Sibelius fan (as I recall you are), what are your opinions of his depictions of pagan Kalevala stories?


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## StlukesguildOhio (Dec 25, 2006)

Richard Strauss' _Salome _must set you into convulsions.:lol:


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## Huilunsoittaja (Apr 6, 2010)

Tapkaara said:


> I don't want to get too off-topic here, but I find this interesting. NOBM DOES depict worship as it is a depiction on a witches' sabbath. And it would certainly be more Satanic/demonic than Le Sacre.
> 
> And if you are a Sibelius fan (as I recall you are), what are your opinions of his depictions of pagan Kalevala stories?


Minor Sibelius fan. Yeah I know!  That's not so bad though. I (use to) read a lot of books about druids and stuff like that.

But the Kalevala is hardly anything compared to this, this is completely different. It's really terrifying, if you know what it's about:





For you all Rite of Spring Fans, here's something of the same vein, although not ballet.


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## Chris (Jun 1, 2010)

I don't think I will ever go to a ballet, but should something as alluring as this come along I will be tempted. Listen to the start of Part 4 if you're not convinced.


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## Aksel (Dec 3, 2010)

Weston said:


> Hmmm - I didn't think the dancer was _literally_ supposed to dance herself to death. I found this a little uncomfortable to watch -- not because of the nudity but because of her exhaustion. It looked real.


I don't think it's supposed to be very comfortable to watch. It's as close you'll ever get to snuff ballet.


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## Argus (Oct 16, 2009)

If I like the music on its own, then watching people (especially fit women) dance while I listen to it can't make it any worse. I can always close my eyes and just listen.

I'm not sure the exact difference between ballet and just dance, but I watched a production last night called Zero Degrees. It was a collabaration between Akram Khan and Sidi Larbi Cherkaoui, with music by Nitin Sawhney and sets by Anthony Gormley. I liked it. The music was for violin, cello, Indian vocals and percussion, and that worked on its own, but it was also interspersed with monologues and dialogue between the performers. I'd also seen Sidi Larbi in another production called Sutra which featured Shoalin monks and that was quite good, with a very similar feel to the other one, as well as Akram Khan joining ballerina Sylvie Guillem in something called Sacred Monsters which also featured a lot of Indian influenced music with harmonium and tabla, again mixed in with speech from the exhausted dancers.

As for proper old school ballet, The Rite is at the top of the pile.

Even The Fall like ballet:


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## Meaghan (Jul 31, 2010)

Argus said:


> I'm not sure the exact difference between ballet and just dance...


From my recent trips to the ballet, it seems to me that line is becoming as blurry as the one between classical and non-classical music. I approve.


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

Huilunsoittaja said:


> DAHHHH!  Enough of that devilish stuff! Accursed art! It's about Devil worship, and the music serves the same purpose!
> 
> Can I even put into words anymore how angry Stravinsky makes me??? Sure, he can play the innocent martyr for modern music, but he's no martyr to me!


I'm always mystified when people conflate paganism and satanism... paganism centers around the veneration of nature and its goddesses, it has nothing to do with any kind of "devil worship". And if you recall, the centrepiece of Christianity is human sacrifice, with a very long history of animal blood sacrifices.


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## Huilunsoittaja (Apr 6, 2010)

Couchie said:


> And if you recall, the centrepiece of Christianity is human sacrifice, with a very long history of animal blood sacrifices.


I was wishing someone wouldn't bring that up. :lol:

That can be the start of a long long discussion on it, but it would hurl this thread into one of those potentially "lively" arguments.

I'll just say one thing. First, the Death and Resurrection of Jesus Christ was a singular event. No human could possibly have achieved what he did, because a "sacrifice" worthy of God would be a perfect person, and no person is perfect. Thus, a death to _spiritually _save a person will never happen again in this metanarrative.


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## Pieck (Jan 12, 2011)

Huilunsoittaja said:


> I was wishing someone wouldn't bring that up. :lol:
> 
> That can be the start of a long long discussion on it, but it would hurl this thread into one of those potentially "lively" arguments.
> 
> I'll just say one thing. First, the Death and Resurrection of Jesus Christ was a singular event. No human could possibly have achieved what he did, because a "sacrifice" worthy of God would be a perfect person, and no person is perfect. Thus, a death to _spiritually _save a person will never happen again in this metanarrative.


I have a very strong urge to question all this ressurection and god stuff but wont because it'll be a total hijack, although it seems that the disscusion is not really in its original subject.


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## Huilunsoittaja (Apr 6, 2010)

Pieck said:


> I have a very strong urge to question all this ressurection and god stuff but wont because it'll be a total hijack, although it seems that the disscusion is not really in its original subject.


Exactly.

PM me if you want.

And now... back to topic...
A lovely winter landscape before your very eyes! (is a ballet)




Has a really foolish ending here, but it goes on in the original.


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## Weston (Jul 11, 2008)

Chris said:


> I don't think I will ever go to a ballet, but should something as alluring as this come along I will be tempted. Listen to the start of Part 4 if you're not convinced.


These are amazing! I only wish the singing were not so distracting. But yes, that's exactly the sort of thing I love to see.



Argus said:


> Even The Fall like ballet:


Frustrating! I kept wanting the camera to go back to the stunning blond guitarist (purely out of technical curiosity of course.  ) A little web browsing "netted" me that she may be Brix Smith who also has/had her own band. I'll have to check these out.


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## Ravellian (Aug 17, 2009)

All I can say is: I saw a Met production of The Sleeping Beauty and it was *AMAZING.* The combination of attractive music, special effects, and stunning choreography really did it for me. I've also _seen_ parts of Rite of Spring and how the dancers make their quirky moves to the music. I think you need all the elements together to get the full effect.


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## HarpsichordConcerto (Jan 1, 2010)

I don't mind ballet as a single piece of (usually) large scale Romantic work. I have a few of the big name ballets but it's a genre I'm not too familiar with. The staging/visuals is important to me when it comes to ballet, perhaps even more so than opera.


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## Air (Jul 19, 2008)

HarpsichordConcerto said:


> The staging/visuals is important to me when it comes to ballet, perhaps even more so than opera.


It's the exact opposite for me. In ballet I can often feel the movements of the music and the dancers but for opera it's the singers themselves and their acting that bring the story to life. Operatic storylines are generally much more complex and detail oriented than ballet ones. The only opera that I enjoy listening to equally or more so than watching is probably Tristan und Isolde, while I can enjoy as a non-staged orchestral work countless number of ballets such as the Rite, the Wooden Prince, Chout, Petrouchka, Uirapuru, and Jeux.


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## Argus (Oct 16, 2009)

Weston said:


> Frustrating! I kept wanting the camera to go back to the stunning blond guitarist (purely out of technical curiosity of course.  ) A little web browsing "netted" me that she may be Brix Smith who also has/had her own band. I'll have to check these out.


She's occasionally on TV over here talking about fashion and music.

She was also married to Mark E Smith, who must be considered a role model for punching above ones weight. Look at him with his current wife (who's also in the band):


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## Chris (Jun 1, 2010)

Argus said:


> Look at him with *his current wife*


Nice expression 

I heard of someone who kept his spouse on her toes by introducing her at parties with the words 'I'd like you to meet my first wife'


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