# The TC Early Music Listening Group



## Allegro Con Brio

Welcome to the TC Early Music Listening Group! The goal of this group is to get to know, appreciate, and love the music of the pre-Baroque period. We have spent the last week gathering many nominations from around 20 participants, and these works extend from the early 1100s to around 1620. We have a great variety of composers, works, and styles to dive into, and I can't wait for all the amazing discussion that will ensue! Each week a different composer will be featured, along with the works that were nominated by the participants. Each participant will get the chance, if they so desire, to introduce and guide us through their chosen work, and provide a recommended album/recording. This leads me into the only "rule" that will be expected in this thread (besides, of course, the mandatory TC terms of service) - *Please focus attention towards the music itself, not performance practice.* There is certainly no problem with discussing recordings, but the purpose of this group is to immerse ourselves in the music and not to run into any side conversations that may deter relative newbies to early music (like myself) from participating. All good? Alright! Below is the listening order for reference, then see the next post for the introduction to our first selection.

05/31-06/07: Dunstable, John (1390-1450) - Selected mass movements and motets [Allegro Con Brio]
06/07-06/14: Tallis, Thomas (1505-1585) - Spem in alium [caracalla]
06/14-06/21: Anonymous (12th century) - Le Chant des Templiers (Chant of the Templars) [Mandryka]
06/21-06/28: Gombert, Nicholas (1495-1560) - 8 Magnificats* [isorhythm]
06/28-07/05: Gautier de Coincy (1177-1236) - Les Miracles de Nostre-Dame [Portamento]
07/05-07/12: Palestrina, Giovanni Pierluigi (1525-1594): Missa Papae Marcelli [mmsbls] and Missa Aeterna Christi Munera [sbmonty]
07/12-07/19: Lassus, Orlande (1532-1594) - Lagrime di San Pietro [Kjetil Heggelund]
07/19-07/26: Hildegard of Bingen (1098-1179) - O Euchari; other hymns and sequences [Shosty]

07/26-08/02: Hasprois, Johannes Symonis (died 1428) - Puisque je suis Fumeux [Highwayman]
08/02-08/09: Taverner, John (1490-1545) - Western Wynde Mass [Simplicissimus]
08/09-08/16: Anonymous (15th century) - Codex Faenza (Codex Bonadies) [Jacck)
08/16-08/23: Ciconia, Johannes (1370-1412) - Una Panthera [premont]
08/23-08/30: Hygons, Richard (1435-1509) - Salve regina [RICK RIEKERT]
08/30-09/06: Byrd, William (1540-1623) - Infelix ego [sbmonty] and Mass for Four Voices [Art Rock]
09/06-09/13: Josquin Des Prez (1455-1521) - Absalom fili mi [EdwardBast] and Missa pange lingua [Knorf]
09/13-09/20: Machaut, Guillaume (1300-1377) - Messe de Nostre Dame [SanAntone], Puis Qu'en Oubli [ORigel], and Le Remède de Fortune [Room2201974]

09/20-09/27: Brumel, Antoine (1460-1512) - Missa et ecce terrae motus (Earthquake Mass) [Allegro Con Brio]
09/27-10/04: Dufay, Guillaume (1397-1474) - Nuper rosarum flores and Missa Ecca ancilla Domini [science]; Resvellies vous [EdwardBast]
10/04-10/11: Anonymous (13th century Spain) - Codex Las Huelgas [Shosty]
10/11-10/18: Isaac, Heinrich (1450-1517) - Missa Virgo Prudentissima [mmsbls]
10/18-10/25: Ockeghem, Johannes (1425-1497) - Missa prolationum [Kjetil Heggelund]
10/25-11/01: Walther von der Vogelweide (1170-1230) - Under den linden [Portamento]
11/01-11/08: Victoria, Tomás Luis (1548-1611) - Magnificat primi toni [caracalla] and Officium Defunctorum (Requiem of 1603) [Art Rock]

11/08-11/15: Fayrfax, Robert (1464-1521) - Missa Tecum Principium [Mandryka]
11/15-11/22: Anonymous (12th century) - Dum esset Salvator in monde (from Codex Calixtinus) [RICK RIEKERT]
11/22-11/29: Solage (late 14th century) - Fumeux Fume par Fumée [Highwayman]
11/29-12/06: Anonymous (approx. 12th century) - Codex Buranus (Carmina Burana) [Jacck]
12/06-12/13: Cornago, Johannes (c. 1400-after 1475) - Missa de la mapa mundi [Simplicissimus]
12/13-12/20: Pérotin (12th century) - Sederunt principes [Knorf]
12/20-12/27: Anonymous (approx. 1400, Spain) - Llibre Vermell de Montserrat [premont]


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## Allegro Con Brio

*05/31-06/07*

*FEATURED COMPOSER: John Dunstable (1390-1450)*

Selected works (submitted by: Allegro Con Brio): Naxos album "Sweet Harmony" performed by Tonus Peregrinus, available on all streaming services OR find it on this YouTube playlist: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_kCD0VS65Xv98ubtKJUr5pY1gjgqgs3mNI

We are getting things rolling by focusing on a composer who I have _very_ recently come to know (and by that I mean two weeks ago). This is 15th century British composer John Dunstable (often spelled "Dunstaple", not sure which one is more commonly accepted, though Wikipedia uses the latter). I first heard his name by listening to Joshua Weilerstein's fantastic Sticky Notes podcast episode on the history of medieval music in 60 minutes (which I highly recommend for those who want to take a deeper dive into early music!) In it, Weilerstein mentions Dunstable as being sort of what Beethoven was for bridging Classicism and Romanticism, or Monteverdi in between the Renaissance and the Baroque - a "transitional composer" who largely retained the musical language of the simpler medieval style while making bold steps to move towards the richer harmony, polyphony and multiple lines of the Renaissance. According to Wiki  he was instrumental in developing a distinctively "English" style of composition called the _contenance angloise_, which utilized fuller, richer harmonies than his predecessors.

Today he does not seem to be brought up very often in discussions of early music, but even regardless of his historical influence I find it hard to believe that his gorgeous music could be neglected. And really, we're just here to listen to the music! And what music it is. When I initially heard the linked album a couple weeks ago, I was mightily impressed at the apparent simplicity of the music - its endearing melodies, its full-bodied harmonies, its gracefully-woven lines...and how affecting it was for me. I thought it would be a great starting point since the individual voices are all easy to follow with no highly intricate counterpoint, and I thought that relative refreshing simplicity would appeal to lots of folks who might be trepidated about the apparent complexity and mystery of early music.

As I've repeatedly said, I really am no expert on this stuff. I simply report my personal experiences and invite others to share in them! If anyone who is more "seasoned" than I wishes to share any further information and thoughts on Dunstable that might assist us in our listening this week, please do! But for now, I recommend simply listening through the album (no piece is longer than about 7 minutes); starting with the 2 1/2 minute polished gem of a motet _Quam pulchra es_, then moving on to the other motets and individual mass movements at your own pace. If you can't commit to listening to the entire album, no sweat Just do what you can and share your thoughts. If I come across any more information or have any other perceptions to share throughout the week I will certainly do so, but for now, have fun and let the lively discussion begin!

P.S. What do we think about obtaining translations for many of these works? I am actually semi-fluent in Latin (yeah, definitely the most practical language to know) but I have a feeling that many might appreciate knowing what is being sung, as this could potentially help contribute to understanding of how the composer represents the text. Does anyone know of a good site or resource for translations, if there is such an interest?


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## SanAntone

I will try to attach the CD booklet. I've never done this before and don't know if it will work.


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## Art Rock

Listening right now, and downloaded the booklet without problem. Thanks!


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## Art Rock

Well, we're off to a good start. I only have CDs of a limited number of composers from the early music time frame - probably not more than about a dozen, and Dunstable is not one of them. There's a beautiful flow to this music, and the fact that it is _a capella_ helps as well - even an organ would just degrade the atmosphere of these pieces. I lack musical background to make detailed comments, but I can say that this is 70 minutes I enjoyed - more than many CDs I do have from this era. This CD goes on the shortlist as a desirable one for the future. Thanks for bringing it to my attention.


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## Allegro Con Brio

Thanks for the booklet, SanAntone! Some nice information in there to serve as a listening guide. 

Of the pieces on this album I think I am most arrested currently by the second and third tracks; Kyrie JD 1 and Gloria a 4 JD 11. The ravishing lines just seem to go on infinitely, wrapped in heavenly harmonies and luscious textures. I agree with Art Rock that there is a beautiful flow to this music, and like him I can’t explain exactly what it is, but everything just seems so easily and naturally integrated. So beautiful!

I’m naturally a literary-minded person, so I’ve often thought about the style of early music in terms of poetry; how the composers used creative manipulation of rhythm, prosody, timbre, and the relationships between sung words to convincingly set the text. There is certainly a lot to think about listening to this music, but a lot of it is just registered subconsciously for me as I absorb the whole product. I think Dunstable represents that sort of sensitive, poetic beauty that I look for in early music.


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## Mandryka

Here's the text of the mass ordinary in Latin and English

http://www.kitbraz.com/tchr/hist/med/mass_ordinary_text.html

I just listened to the third track of the Tonus Pregrinus CD, a Credo setting. At _Crucifixus etiam pro nobis_ there's a caesura in the performance. And after the music becomes extremely rapt, as if Dunstable in the hands of Tonus Pregrinus is using the counterpoint to create a sense of the mystery of the crucifixion and resurrection. Is he expressing the meaning of the credo in music? Is that what renaissance polyphony is about?


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## Mandryka

Allegro Con Brio said:


> I agree with Art Rock that there is a beautiful flow to this music, and like him I can't explain exactly what it is, but everything just seems so easily and naturally integrated. So beautiful!
> 
> .


I think the music is liquid, in many directions: flow and counterflow. And it does seem to be naturally integrated as you say. This creates a sense of order. And sometimes, maybe the Credo I just talked about from _Crucifixus etiam pro nobis_ onwards is an example, it becomes more than that: it becomes a vertiginous psycho-acoustic event.


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## Allegro Con Brio

A nice little biography of Dunstable from AllMusic for those seeking a little background to aid their listening:

_Dunstable's name suggests he may have been born in the town of Dunstable in Bedfordshire, England. Sources from his time, including a possible signature of his own, spell his name "Dunstaple." The birthdate of 1390 is surmised from the appearance of his earliest known datable works, the motets Veni sancte spiritus and Preco preheminencie, heard during the celebrations that followed in the wake of English King Henry V's victories in the Battle of Agincourt. These pieces were repeated at Canterbury Cathedral for the King and the Holy Roman Emperor Sigismund in 1416; this is the only connection that can be drawn between Dunstable and canterbury. This could suggest canterbury composer Leonel Power, author of the Old Hall Manuscript, knew Dunstable, and Power may have been Dunstable's teacher. The work of Dunstable and Power is so similar that in several instances contemporary manuscript copies bear attributions to both composers for the same pieces.

Dunstable disappears from the historical record until 1427, when it is established that he was then in France in the service of Henry V's younger brother John of Lancaster, Duke of Bedford. Dunstable is also shown to be in the retinue of the notorious dowager Queen, Joan of Navarre, from 1428. The historical record relating to Dunstable's service to the Plantagenets is unclear, but this may mean that Dunstable traveled quite frequently between England and France, in service of both courts. During his travels abroad Dunstable may have become acquainted with his greatest admirers, the Franco-Flemish composers Guilliaume Dufay and Gilles Binchois. Fifteenth century treatises acknowledge the impact made by English music on French musicians during this period. This reflects the concurrent political situation as well, as much of the territory of France, including Paris itself, lay in English hands from 1420 to 1450, the final phase of the Hundred Years War. Dunstable benefited directly from this situation when the Duke of Bedford died in 1435, as Bedford awarded to Dunstable generous land grants in Normandy. Queen Joan remembered him a handsome annuity at her death in 1437. Dunstable was also an astronomer of considerable acclaim in his day, and astronomical charts believed to be in his own hand yet survive. However, all of his music is only known in copies made by other scribes. Most of Dunstable's music is preserved in sources located in Italy and Germany, rather than England, where just a scant remainder of contemporary examples remains.

Only a tiny fraction of Dunstable's work is of the secular variety, and of these the most widely circulated piece, O Rosa bella, is now known to be the work of Dunstable's younger contemporary John Bedyngham. Although Dunstable's musical output is primarily sacred, there is no evidence to suggest that he held any post as a cleric. When Dunstable died in 1453, he was both wealthy and famous, and his reputation as a composer survived well into the first part of the sixteenth century. Another presumed associate of Dunstable's, John Wheathampstead, abbot of Saint Albans, composed two epitaphs to Dunstable's memory, one of which reads "with (Dunstable) as judge, Urania learned how to unfold the secrets of Heaven. This man was your glory, O Music; who had dispersed your sweet art through the world. The 'star' transmigrates to the stars; may the citizens of Heaven receive him as one of their own."_


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## RICK RIEKERT

Mandryka said:


> I just listened to the third track of the Tonus Pregrinus CD, a Credo setting. At _Crucifixus etiam pro nobis_ there's a caesura in the performance. And after the music becomes extremely rapt, as if Dunstable in the hands of Tonus Pregrinus is using the counterpoint to create a sense of the mystery of the crucifixion and resurrection. Is he expressing the meaning of the credo in music? Is that what renaissance polyphony is about?


Music serving as a vehicle to get across the meaning of the text seems to have been an idea already current in Dunstable's day. Singers were expected to express the text clearly and to respond to the rhetorical opportunities offered by text and music. Vincenzo Calmeta, a court poet and composer who was born around the time of Dunstable's death, expressed the ideal in his _Vita del facondo poeta volgare Serafino Aquilano_ when he praised those musicans "as of the highest judgment who...put all their effort into expressing the words well, when they are of substance, and who make the music accompany them in such a way that the words are the masters, accompanied by servants so as to appear more honorable; not creating the affects and the meanings from the music, but rather creating the music from the meanings and the affects…"

Thomas More's _Utopia_ of 1516 conveys a similar attitude: "Their musike…dothe so resemble and expresse naturall affections, the sound and tune is so applied and made agreable to the thinge, that whether it bee a prayer, or els a dytty of gladnes, of patience, of trouble, of mournynge, or of anger: the fassion of the melodye dothe so represente the meaning of the thing, that it doth wonderfullye move, stirre, pearce, and enflame the hearers myndes."


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## Mandryka

Thanks.

In Machaut's prologue he writes



> Je, Nature, par qui tout est fourmé
> Quanqu'a ça jus et seur terre et en mer, [5]
> Vien ci a toy, Guillaume, qui fourmé [6]
> T'ay a part, pour faire par toy fourmer
> Nouviaus dis amoureus plaisans.
> Pour ce te bail ci trois de mes enfans
> Qui t'en donront la pratique,
> Et, se tu n'ies d'euls trois bien congnoissans, [7]
> Nommé sont Scens, Retorique et Musique.
> 
> Par Scens aras ton engin enfourmé [8]
> De tout ce que tu vorras confourmer ; [9]
> Retorique n'ara riens enfermé
> Que ne t'en voit en metre et en rimer ; [10]
> Et Musique te donra chans, [11]
> Tant que vorras, divers et deduisans. [12]
> Einsi ti fait seront frique, [13]
> N'a ce faire ne pues estre faillans, [14]
> Car tu as Scens, Retorique et Musique


I can't find a translation of this anywhere but it's pretty obvious that he's saying that three things are the motor, the engine, of his art -- Scens, Retorique et Musique. Of course what he meant by that is a much bigger question than I can answer.

What on earth is _scens_? But I wonder if this has something to do with expressiveness.


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## Room2201974

One of the problems we will encounter in this thread is that there is so little known about many of the early music composers. For the life of me I have not been able to ascertain the dates of composition for the Dunstaple works we are listening to. Anyone have a clue?

The only thing I can come up with is that _Quam Pulchra Es_ must be an earlier composition than the Mass due to the use of the Landini Cadence.

A translation for _Quam Pulchra Es_:

He:

"How beautiful and fair you are, my beloved,
most sweet in your delights.
Your stature is like a palm-tree,
and your breasts are like fruit.
Your head is like Mount Carmel
and your neck is like a tower of ivory.

She:

Come, my beloved, let us go into the fields
and see if the blossoms have born fruit,
and if the pomegranates have flowered.
There will I give my breasts to you.

Alleluia."

Alleluia indeed!


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## RICK RIEKERT

Mandryka said:


> What on earth is _scens_? But I wonder if this has something to do with expressiveness.


Even the noted scholar William Calin seems unable to puzzle out exactly what Machaut had in mind by the nebulous term _Scens_ (inspiration? the faculty of reason which plans and controls artistic creation? the art of composition?). Another authority, Jacqueline Cerquiglini, has 'clarified' the meaning of _Scens_ as "a kind of guiding intelligence that regards above all the formal, proportional structure."


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## jegreenwood

I first came across Dunstable's name in Burkholder's "A History of Western Music," where he is described as the preeminent English composer of the first half of the 15th century. I was somewhat surprised to find that my modest - but not that modest - Early Music collection contained absolutely nothing by him. A good chance to correct that.


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## Mandryka

Room2201974 said:


> One of the problems we will encounter in this thread is that there is so little known about many of the early music composers. For the life of me I have not been able to ascertain the dates of composition for the Dunstaple works we are listening to. Anyone have a clue?
> 
> The only thing I can come up with is that _Quam Pulchra Es_ must be an earlier composition than the Mass due to the use of the Landini Cadence.
> 
> A translation for _Quam Pulchra Es_:
> 
> He:
> 
> "How beautiful and fair you are, my beloved,
> most sweet in your delights.
> Your stature is like a palm-tree,
> and your breasts are like fruit.
> Your head is like Mount Carmel
> and your neck is like a tower of ivory.
> 
> She:
> 
> Come, my beloved, let us go into the fields
> and see if the blossoms have born fruit,
> and if the pomegranates have flowered.
> There will I give my breasts to you.
> 
> Alleluia."
> 
> Alleluia indeed!


Unless Landini didn't invent the Landini cadence, I don't mean to be even more trollish than usual, but I know that dating these pieces is a minefield.


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## Mandryka

RICK RIEKERT said:


> Even the noted scholar William Calin seems unable to puzzle out exactly what Machaut had in mind by the nebulous term _Scens_ (inspiration? the faculty of reason which plans and controls artistic creation? the art of composition?). Another authority, Jacqueline Cerquiglini, has 'clarified' the meaning of _Scens_ as "a kind of guiding intelligence that regards above all the formal, proportional structure."


Sounds a bit like phronesis in Aristotle, though there it's a concept from the philosophy of action.


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## Room2201974

Mandryka said:


> Unless Landini didn't invent the Landini cadence, I don't mean to be even more trollish than usual, but I know that dating these pieces is a minefield.


Well of course he didn't invent it and I didn't suggest he did. The cadence was well known to Machaut and De Vitry and others of the period. It was used well into the 15th century before dying out. Compared to the cadences in Dunstaple's Mass examples it seems archaic....a vestige of an earlier era.


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## Mandryka

Room2201974 said:


> .a vestige of an earlier era.


Just thought of this when I saw that phrase, a bit irrelevant really, but this is well worth hearing









It ends with Dunstable and people of his ilk, you hear the changes over the 150 years.


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## RICK RIEKERT

Mandryka said:


> Sounds a bit like phronesis in Aristotle, though there it's a concept from the philosophy of action.


If we go Greek, _nous_ might be a closer approximation. Sens as one of Nature's gifts seems to be a specific kind of intelligence which facilitates and may even make possible the acquisition of the skills of retorique (the art of versification) and musique. When referring to the five senses it can also mean the _sens commun_, which brings sense impressions into order, enabling _entendement_, or understanding of what they represent.


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## Jacck

I listened to the Sweet Harmony 2 times and quite liked it, especially the parts with the high angelic voice, for example Sanctus (Da gaudiorum premia) , JD 18. I am unable to say much more than that the music is quite beautiful, since I am not an expert. Though I understand a bit Latin too. I had 2 years in Gymnasium and 2 semesters in med school, and once I even knew all the correct Latin declinations


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## Jacck

here are also motets from Dunstable


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## sbmonty

I've been listening off and on since Saturday. Absolutely lovely works. I am very new to this type of music, so am looking forward to reading all these informed thoughts as we go forward. Unfortunately I won't be able to contribute much, but I've begun reading "Music from the Earliest Notations to the Sixteenth Century" by R. Taruskin, as this thread has made me quite curious. 

"Just thought of this when I saw that phrase, a bit irrelevant really, but this is well worth hearing 
It ends with Dunstable and people of his ilk, you hear the changes over the 150 years."

If it doesn't disrupt the thread, then suggestions of specific favourite cds of Early Music, such as Mandryka kindly offered, would be very helpful as we move along.


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## Duncan

Time constraints prevent participation but I can provide the following information which may help one to acquire the knowledge needed to place this music in perspective -

This is the Lumen Learning "*Music Appreciation*" link which provides a detailed overview of music in general -

https://courses.lumenlearning.com/musicappreciation_with_theory/

This is the link which leads directly to Lumen Learning's "*Overview of Medieval Music*" -

https://courses.lumenlearning.com/musicappreciation_with_theory/chapter/overview-of-medieval-music/

And the link which leads directly to the "*The Renaissance*" -

https://courses.lumenlearning.com/musicappreciation_with_theory/chapter/overview-of-the-renaissance/

This next grouping of links extends the concepts further -

*"Medieval music: a quick guide to the middle ages" -
*
https://earlymusicmuse.com/medievalmusic/

*"Performing medieval music. Part 1: Instrumentation" -
*
https://earlymusicmuse.com/performingmedievalmusic1of3/

*"Performing medieval music. Part 2: Turning monophony into polyphony"*

https://earlymusicmuse.com/performingmedievalmusic2of3/

*"Performing medieval music. Part 3: The medieval style" *

https://earlymusicmuse.com/performingmedievalmusic3of3/

This is a review of the album currently being featured -

http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2006/Feb06/Dunstable_Harmony_8557341.htm

This is a second review of the album currently being featured -

http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2005/Nov05/Dunstable_Motets_8557341.htm

If you wish to pursue this composer further -









Link to complete album -

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLBjflpgWIEVze6Xnz7UQt5vUYLRFNF6Ek

Works

Dunstaple: Agnus Dei
Dunstaple: Alma Redemptoris Mater
Dunstaple: Credo & Sanctus Da gaudiorum premia
Dunstaple: Credo super 'Da gaudiorum premia'
Dunstaple: Gaude virgo salutata
Dunstaple: Preco Preheminencie
Dunstaple: Quam pulchra es
Dunstaple: Salve Regina misericordie
Dunstaple: Salve scema sanctitatis
Dunstaple: Veni Sancte Spiritus
Ockeghem: Alma Redemptoris Mater









Link to complete album -

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_mBW5LB4g9MATCyJzvsvVTiMDb23q36EUo

Composers

Dunstaple, John (c.1390-1453)
Ockeghem, Johannes (c.1430-c.1495)
Power, Leonel (c.1375-1445)

Works

Dunstaple: Agnus Dei
Dunstaple: Alma Redemptoris Mater
Dunstaple: Credo super 'Da gaudiorum premia'
Dunstaple: Gaude virgo salutata
Dunstaple: Preco Preheminencie
Dunstaple: Quam pulchra es
Dunstaple: Salve Regina misericordie
Dunstaple: Salve scema sanctitatis
Dunstaple: Veni Sancte Spiritus
Ockeghem: Alma Redemptoris Mater
Power, L: Agnus Dei, OH141
Power, L: Ave regina cælorum
Power, L: Beata viscera
Power, L: Credo
Power, L: Gloria
Power, L: Ibo michi ad montem
Power, L: Missa 'Alma redemptoris mater'
Power, L: Quam pulchra es
Power, L: Salve Regina
Power, L: Sanctus

If I had the time I could explain the Machaut Prologue reference which is actually a "conversation" between Machaut and "Lady Nature" who offers her three children _Scens, Rhétorique,_ and _Musique_ to assist him in his creative endeavours but that will have to wait for some time that is not "now"... The quote used in one of the posts above is actually in Old French (Medieval) which led to Middle French (Renaissance) which evolved into Modern (Standard) French which then devolved into _le français québécois_ - if you just laughed at that last line it made the creation of this post worthwhile...

*Question of the week - *

Who's more responsible for what you've actually been listening to with this selection - John Dunstable or Antony Pitts?

Extra credit bonus question - Why?


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## Allegro Con Brio

^Wonderful info, thanks so much Duncan! And that is a very intriguing question - there seems to be a common consensus that this music is beautiful, flowing, even angelic (which is what appealed to me in the first place) but in all fairness the only interpretations of the music I have ever heard have been by Tonus Peregrinus. I know that the focus of the group should be mainly on the music itself, but I do think it’s only fair to see if the recordings we’ve been hearing are really bringing us the “essence” of Dunstable or just an individual interpretation. I’ll do some more listening this afternoon! 

BTW I like the idea of having “discussion questions” with the selections; I should have thought of that before submitting this one.


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## Mandryka

Todd McComb's website is invaluable for exploring early music. Here's the page on Dunstable

http://www.medieval.org/emfaq/composers/dunstaple.html

It's interesting to see that comment about people thinking that Dunstable invented counterpoint, because I was just thinking that he doesn't seem to write much by way of imitative counterpoint - are there any Dunstable fugues?


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## RICK RIEKERT

McComb writes, "Based on comments from Tinctoris and other contemporary authors, Dunstaple was mistakenly believed by later Renaissance writers to have invented counterpoint!"

This statement seems to suggest that Tinctoris himself claimed that Dunstable had invented counterpoint, but in fact he merely stated that it has been claimed that counterpoint originated among the English, among whom Dunstable at that time was the foremost musician. Tinctoris, the author of _Liber de arte contrapuncti_, was probably aware that counterpoint existed before the time of Dunstable.

The twelfth-century archdeacon Giraldus Cambensis (Gerald of Wales) had written an account of three-part singing among the Welsh people, now assumed to be heterophony, which probably gave rise to the mistaken notion that counterpoint was invented in England(!?), although Gerald clearly indicates that the practice of this three-part singing, which he does not say was in thirds, may well have come from Scandinavia.


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## Mandryka

sbmonty said:


> "Just thought of this when I saw that phrase, a bit irrelevant really, but this is well worth hearing
> It ends with Dunstable and people of his ilk, you hear the changes over the 150 years."
> 
> If it doesn't disrupt the thread, then suggestions of specific favourite cds of Early Music, such as Mandryka kindly offered, would be very helpful as we move along.











I listened to this today, all early English music and a handful of pieces by Dunstable. These are not the most searching interpretations, but there is a USP: De Caelis is all women, I very much like that, I prefer high registers to low. I think it gives a new perspective to the music, more homogeneous than other, more conventional, ensembles, which again I like.


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## caracalla

I've always wanted to like Dunstable - obviously he's important - but until now, he made very little impression on me. Nor could I hear why the much vaunted 'contenance Angloise' was such a big deal, something I just put down to lacking 15thC Franco-Burgundian ears. I could read about it, of course, but as Antony Pitts says at the end of his notes: "technical descriptions... can hardly explain just how superlatively amazing this music is".

And that it is. Tonus Peregrinus take a very different approach from the Hilliard Ensemble, whose early-80s recordings have long been treated as the benchmark, and it's one that has allowed me to engage enthusiastically with this music for the first time. Like Mandryka, I usually favour higher registers (also trebles/sopranos over counter-tenors), and they dominate several tracks here. I'm especially taken with the Credo (JD 17) from the Missa Da gaudiorum premia, which I compared with both the Hilliards' effort and a recent release from the Binchois Consort before deciding to download. A marvellous piece I can no longer do without. Insofar as there's a 'standard' presentation operating for Dunstable's music, then Pitts seems to be the one who diverges furthest from it, and I for one am very pleased that he does. 

As for Duncan's question - who is more responsible for what we've been listening to, Dunstable or Pitts? - that's something I'm not qualified to answer. What I do know is that I've long been accustomed to EM as a composer-performer joint venture, because the different interpretations can diverge so widely that it sometimes determines whether I can appreciate the music at all. Anyway, team Dunstable-Pitts certainly gets my thumbs-up.

As a footnote, others keen on 'Da gaudiorum premia' might care to know that the Binchois Consort has a reconstruction of the Kyrie to go with the Credo and Sanctus. Apparently fragments of the Gloria are also extant, but as yet that's just too bitty to attempt a similar exercise.


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## Mandryka

The danger with this sort of music in performance is that it becomes sugary. My favourite Dunstable is probably from Gothic Voices: Beata Dei Genitrix ( Sprirts of England and France vol 5) Speciosa Facta Es (The Service of Venus and Mars) and Beata Mater (Mary Star of the Sea) 

I like Kirkman very much too. 


People who aren’t allergic to early music sung like Schubert should definitely try Pro Cantione Antiqua, in the Old Hall Manuscript recording.

The high voices in the Tonus Peregrinus performances seem to me to make the harmonies more exciting to hear, more scrunchy sounding. They also give the impression to me of singing responsively - they’re like that in all their recordings.


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## Allegro Con Brio

I did do a brief comparison of a couple of the movements on the Tonus Peregrinus album with the Hilliard Ensemble, and really liked Tonus better for what I heard as fuller-bodied and more expressive singing. But I’m no expert in what to look for in interpretations of early music.

Glad to see that everyone seems to be enjoying this music! I think at the very least, even if many of us like myself lack the requisite expertise for an in-depth discussion of the music, just having these selections to guide our listening is extremely helpful.


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## MrMeatScience

I've been slowly making my way through the Naxos Dunstable record, and I have to say, I enjoyed it much more than I've enjoyed the majority of the EM I've listened to. Maybe it's Dunstable, maybe it's Pitts, but either way, I'm into it. I'd still be quite hesitant to say I "get it," but it's a good start on the path. The _Veni_ at the end of the record was a real highlight for me. I've also gone back to the first volume of the Taruskin and started reading it again; it'll make a nice companion through this journey.


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## mmsbls

Over the past 6 months or so I've listened to vastly more Renaissance music than ever before. While I always generally enjoyed the music, I've come to truly love many works now. I had heard and enjoyed some Dunstable before including the beautiful Veni Sancte Spiritus, and I thoroughly enjoyed these works. I keep a long list of works to hear, and the list includes some Dunstable by the Hilliard Ensemble. I expect I'll listen to some of those works to see if I have a preference. I've marked this CD as one to purchase. Thanks for the suggestion.


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## science

The discussion here has been absolutely inspiring. I've too often lamented the lack of respect that medieval and Renaissance much gets here without even trying to do anything effective about it, so big props to Allegro Con Brio, and I also just want to thank you all for doing this, whether you're more on the sharing knowledge side of things or on the trying new music side. Hopefully we'll be spreading the gospel of "early music" far and wide. 

I'll give Dunstaple another listen asap (I have the Hilliard recording and I think I have something on Naxos but I need to check that).


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## Simplicissimus

I was getting dribs and drabs of Dunstable from my streaming service and the Web, but quickly decided to buy the Tonus Peregrinus “Sweet Harmony” CD on Amazon. Luckily, it’s one of those orders that arrives after only two days, so I have been listening to it for the past 48 hours. Really happy to be experiencing this music.

My longstanding acquaintance with EM has centered on instrumental and more secular music, you know, like what you hear at Renaissance fairs with motley folks capering around drunkenly. Terpsichore, that kind of thing, and then Buxtehude, Byrd, and Telemann, so later (actually early or core Baroque) stuff. This Music for Holy Mass is fascinating to me because it is simultaneously familiar and Strange. I detect the polyphony and complex harmony realized in vocal lines which I am accustomed to hearing (and playing) in instrumental ensembles of recorders, crumhorns, shawms, viola da gambas, etc.; and interestingly, Dunstable’s music strikes me as more experimental and adventurous than the later instrumental stuff, which can be quite mannered and predictable. The other familiar part is the Latin Mass, which is a form of the rite in which I participate as often as I can. I have known the Latin Gloria, Credo, Sanctus, etc. for many years, but in divine worship they are ordinarily sung by a cantor leading the congregation or just recited. Of course there are the great Baroque masses like Bach’s and later ones like Fauré’s that use the same Latin texts, but the intimacy and spiritual intensity of Dunstable’s Gloria and Credo a 4... wow. The liner blurb calls this music “heartwarming,” which sounds clichéed but here I find it an apt description.


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## Allegro Con Brio

*June 7 - June 14: Thomas Tallis (1505-1585) - Spem in alium*

Nominated by: caracalla

I will give Caracalla the chance to introduce this work as he wishes, but I will just kick us off this week by saying this is possibly my favorite work composed before 1650, and it never fails to astonish the socks off me every time I hear it. Really looking forward to hearing perspectives on this one. Also, since this is such a popular work, Trout has done a recommended recordings list which may be of some help to guide your listening:

1. Phillips (cond.), Tallis Scholars (1985)
2. Cave (cond.), Magnificat	(1997)
3. Summerly (cond.), Oxford Camerata (2005)
4. Van Nevel (cond.), Huelgas Ensemble (1994)
5. Christophers (cond.), The Sixteen (1989)
6. Parrott (cond.), Taverner Consort & Choir	(1987)
7. Hill (cond.), Winchester Cathedral Choir, Vocal Arts Choir, Winchester College Chapel Choir	(1989)
8. Wulstan (cond.), The Clerkes of Oxenford	(1973)
9. Christophers (cond.), The Sixteen, The Symphony of Harmony and Invention (2003)


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## Shosty

Sorry I'm a bit late here. I listened to the Naxos Dunstable recording a few days ago, which was the first time I listened to anything by him and I'm glad I have now. Of the music itself I particularly liked Gloria a 4 JD 11, Gloria JD 15, Sanctus JD 6 and Credo in unum Deum, and I know I shouldn't be talking about recordings, but I found it a bit difficult to connect with this particular recording, then I read a couple of reviews about it and found out that Pitts and Tonus Peregrinus play some of the works here with slower tempos than usual (or than other ensembles) which might be why it was difficult for me to get through the album in one sitting. Still, I'm grateful to have been introduced to Dunstable and will explore his music further, probably played by other ensembles though.

I listened to Spem in alium (for the first time) yesterday without knowing it was going to be this week's work, and I was floored by it. I know it's a bit of a cliche but the only word I can think of to describe this music is 'sublime'.


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## Knorf

_Spem in alium_ is a very cool piece. I really hope to hear it live someday. Tallis is awesome, and hearing his music makes me miss the days of singing in a choir. I never got to sing this one, but I did get to sing his _Lamentations of Jeremiah_ a few times.

One thing I like to use _Spem in alium_ for is in teaching counterpoint, to illustrate how greater complexity in one domain (e.g. counterpoint) requires decreased complexity in another (e.g. harmony.)


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## hammeredklavier




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## caracalla

SPEM IN ALIUM (Thomas Tallis)

Text is as follows:

Spem in alium nunquam habui
Praeter in te, Deus Israel
Qui irasceris et propitius eris
et omnia peccata hominum
in tribulatione dimittis
Domine Deus
Creator caeli et terrae
respice humilitatem nostram

I have never put my hope in any other
but in Thee, God of Israel
who canst show both wrath and graciousness,
and who absolves all the sins
of man in suffering
Lord God,
Creator of Heaven and Earth
Regard our humility

The text is adapted from a passage in the Book of Judith (considered apocryphal by Protestants), and had been used as a Matins response in the English Sarum rite, abolished by statute in 1559. To have used it in a liturgical setting in the 1570s would have been illegal, indeed considered sedition (as open defiance of the crown's supremacy over the church). However such texts were not proscribed, and there was no objection to setting them to music for performance in secular contexts. Tallis's Catholicism was no secret, but he was always careful to keep within the rules.

There's a mass of information about Spem online - the best short introduction is probably the Wikipedia entry. I will also post some notes by Philip Legge, editor of the full (40vv) score currently in use, who discusses in more detail how the music achieves its extraordinary effects.

Just a note here about recordings. The best known is by the Tallis Scholars (from 1985), which is also their best-selling album. In 2012, this suddenly surged to the top of the UK classical charts and held that position for several weeks, following a plug in EL James' 'Fifty Shades of Grey' (where Spem features as the backdrop to some kinky sex). I happen to think their version still has the edge over its rivals, but haven't linked to it as Spotify outrageously chops it up into four separate tracks. Happily, it can be found (intact) with ease on YouTube as, I think, can most of the others. Hill's (on Hyperion) is one exception - which is a pity, as imho it's the best of the small group using trebles rather than sopranos for the top line.

Most of the versions noted by ACB above (and indeed several others) are not wildly dissimilar. Unlike the situation still prevailing for many earlier periods, performers and audiences seem to have reached a broad consensus of what Late Renaissance music ought to sound like (even if it didn't), and most people operate within these ballpark parameters. Of course, there are still differences (and consequent preferences), but not to a notably greater extent than obtains for later music. 

I will single out two, for special reasons. The latest effort (2003) by Harry Christophers and The Sixteen was recorded in the round in SACD, and might well appeal to those with surround-sound playback. This is similar to the TS version, just a smidgeon faster. Of more general interest, their album also includes 'Sing and Glorify' - the version of Spem used in 1610 and 1616 for the Prince of Wales investitures. Then there's Mark Brown's 2000 version with Pro Cantione Antiqua. This gives much more prominence to the lower voices (the Tallis Scholars & others are sometimes criticised for being too toppy), and is also much slower than usual - running to nearly 14 mins. At that pace, I find it drags, but it does give listeners more opportunity to hear the intricate counterpoint at work.


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## caracalla

Notes by Philip Legge:

Musically, the motet is a tour de force on many levels, not least for Tallis’ masterful exploitation of his choirs’ spatial distribution. If the choirs are arranged in circular fashion sequentially by number, then the music “rotates” through the opening points of imitation on Spem in alium nunquam habui (choirs I to IV) and Præter in te, Deus Israel (choirs V to VIII). After a short interjection from choirs III and IV (which functions antiphonally as "decani" to the "cantoris" of choirs VII and VIII) Tallis completes the circle with the entry of the ﬁnal bass voice of Choir VIII; shortly afterwards, at the fourtieth breve of the work, all forty voices enter in the ﬁrst of a series of massive welters of sound, which has been described as "polyphonic detailism". The next imitative section which follows at qui irasceris et propitius eris reverses the direction of rotation as new voices enter against varied countersubjects in the parts already established.

Tallis also manages to combine the exchanges between choirs in four different antiphonal arrangements, by amalgamating the singers in four groups of two choirs (as hinted at above), so antiphony can pass back between both "north" and "south", but also between "east" and "west"), but also as two groups of four choirs (ie one massive 20-voice choir against another) which can be arranged in two different ways (north and west versus east and south, or north and east versus south and west).

After the most intricate chordal passage so disposed between the various choirs, Tallis contrives the entire choir of 40 voices to enter as one after a pause, "upon a magical change of harmony". With the words respice humilitatem nostram Tallis ends with the most strikingly unhumble polyphonic passage yet heard, framed by the strong harmonic rhythms of the ensemble. The view that this might be Tallis' opus magnum is intriguingly suggested by Hugh Keyte's observation of a possible numerological signiﬁcance in the work's duration being exactly 69 long notes: in the Latin alphabet, TALLIS adds up to 69.


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## Duncan

*The Tallis Scholars sing Thomas Tallis*

*Link to complete 2-CD set with 3 Bonus Selections (74 in total) - *

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_ktQTj-7QFhjJfDiUSAGJLBHTe22WSuXKM

Works

Tallis: A new commandment
Tallis: Absterge Domine
Tallis: Ave Dei patris filia
Tallis: Blessed are those that be undefiled
Tallis: Christ Rising Again
Tallis: Gaude gloriosa Dei mater
Tallis: Hear the voice and prayer
Tallis: If ye love me
Tallis: In manus tuas
Tallis: Lamentations of Jeremiah I
Tallis: Lamentations of Jeremiah I & II
Tallis: Lamentations of Jeremiah II
Tallis: Loquebantur variis linguis
Tallis: Magnificat for 4 voices
Tallis: Miserere nostri, motet for 7 voices, P. 207
Tallis: O Lord, give thy holy spirit
Tallis: O Lord, in thee is all my trust
Tallis: O sacrum convivium
Tallis: Purge me, O Lord
Tallis: Remember not, O Lord God
Tallis: Salvator mundi, salva nos 1 & 2
Tallis: Salve intemerata
Tallis: Sancte Deus
Tallis: Spem in alium for eight five-part choirs '40-part Motet'
Tallis: Tunes for Archbishop Parker's Psalter
Tallis: Verily, verily I say unto you


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## Allegro Con Brio

The first version of this that I heard was the one by the King’s Singers, which features overdubbing of five/six voices singing all the parts separately. I think this method lets you hear the counterpoint clearer than any “in-person” version, but it does sound a bit artificial. I just remember listening to the Tallis Scholars recording for the first time and being shocked at how “muddled” and almost labored it sounded. Not that it’s a bad performance, but it can’t be easy to sing this in a real setting - with so much going on, paying attention to the part you’re supposed to be singing, not to mention conducting, is quite a challenge! The Summerly/Oxford Camerata, I found, was far far too slow. 

And a random thought I often have while listening to it: Is this the most complex counterpoint ever composed?


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## sbmonty

My first listen. Stunningly beautiful. This must be almost overwhelming to hear live. Thanks for the suggestion!


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## Duncan

sbmonty said:


> My first listen. Stunningly beautiful. This must be almost overwhelming to hear live. Thanks for the suggestion!


*This is a link to the complete album listed by sbmonty -*

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_kISfkII2_uBHfDYoYnTL0yzsk8eUnQPx8

These reviews can add a great deal to one's attempt to fully appreciate the disc (and the music) above -

http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2005/Sep05/Tallis_spem_6110111.htm

http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2005/June05/Tallis_Spem_8557770.htm

http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2005/Sep05/tallis_spemJQ_8557770.htm


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## mmsbls

Ever since I first heard Spem in alium I've viewed it as one of my favorite works of any era. I seem to never tire of hearing the many voices meld together in wondrous counterpoint. When the full force of the 40 voices rings out, my whole being seems lifted up to an exalted musical space. 

I would love to sit inside a circle of performers singing the work. There was a travelling exhibit by Janet Cardiff called The Forty Part Motet which consisted of forty high-fidelity speakers positioned on stands in a large oval playing Spem in a continuous loop. I never did hear it, and unfortunately, I'm not sure if it will ever be exhibited again. 

I have the Tallis Scholars and I Fagiolini performing the work, and I've heard The Sixteen. Both the Tallis Scholars and The Sixteen sound wonderful. Incidentally the I Fagiolini recording of Spem is an extra thrown in on the CD, Striggio: Mass in 40 Parts. The Striggio work is the only other 40 voice work I'm aware of. In my opinion it's not at the same level as Spem in alium, but it's also a beautiful work.


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## Art Rock

Last week I came across the Dutch book that was my bible during my first years of getting into classical music in the mid 80s: _XYZ der muziek_ (XYZ of music) by Dutch musicologist Casper Höweler, a 700+ pages with encyclopaedia type entries about composers, compositions, instruments and so on, last updated in the sixties. I was curious what he had to say about Tallis. Nothing. No entry about this composer. Apparently renaissance music was not very hot then either.

I'm pretty sure that I have two Tallis CDs on Naxos, including the one shown earlier in the thread. I just need to find it in the many boxes of yet to catalog CDs (I'm at composers starting with R at the moment in my alphabetical effort).


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## RICK RIEKERT

When we hear this magnificent work it's hard to understand the disapproval and almost complete incomprehension with which _Spem in alium_ was met in England just a few decades prior to it being universally hailed there as a masterpiece. Prior to the nineteenth century _Spem in alium_ was considered to be little more than an historical curiosity. After a series of inept performances in the 1830s and 40s the piece was decried and laid to rest and not performed again until 1879, this time by a very highly regarded choir which had rehearsed the piece eighty times under the supervision of the renown conductor Sir Henry David Leslie. Despite the care and extensive preparation, the work was dismissed by the mainstream musical press as "the mistake of a barbarous age"; "about as interesting and valuable as a set of Chinese concentric balls or a table made of a million bits of wood."; an example of the "musical pedantries which existed in the early days of art"; "in performance, perhaps more astonishing than pleasing to modern ears"; even Tallis' skill at writing in forty parts was downplayed and the result said to be "as interesting as any other ingenious, if not particularly useful, application of labour and patience." O, the fickle finger of taste!


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## science

I'll confess something. The first time I heard _Spem in Alium_ was about 26 years ago now, in the arrangement for string quartet on Kronos Quartet's _Black Angels_ album. That album was essentially my introduction to classical music!

Now I've also played it for a lot of young people, and that wide-eyed response the first time they hear Crumb's _Black Angels_ is one of the ways I know I'm a good teacher!

I don't know how many years it was -- probably at least a decade -- before I heard _Spem in Alium_ as a choral work. I had some advantages coming to it because I was very interested in religious choral music, especially Byzantine and Russian chant, and I initially approached it as a liturgical work, imagining it sung in a traditional church: probably a large gothic church in the middle of the night, the icons barely lit by candles (no electric light of course), no pews, and not many people present. It would have been a very intimate experience of startling beauty, and the Latin prayer itself is a very fine example of what spirituality can be. (The sad truth is that I don't know if it was ever performed the way I imagined it! But I hope it was just for the sake of the few people who would've experienced that.)

It's a work that can grow on you over time, especially if you get a good stereo version so that the different groups of voices are easier to hear. It's so rich in little sweet details that pop out after repeated listenings.

I have lost my faith since that time, and generally I don't miss it, but music and spirituality this beautiful really does something to me.


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## Knorf

Allegro Con Brio said:


> And a random thought I often have while listening to it: Is this the most complex counterpoint ever composed?


I'd argue, no. As grand as it is, and stunningly conceived and executed, the complexity of imitation and other devices in the counterpoint is actually quite straightforward and simple, a nearly inevitable result of using so many voices. It's also harmonically quite static for the same reason. I'd argue you'll find more complexity in something like the first chorus of Bach's Cantata BWV 4, _Christ lag in Todesbanden_, which is mind-boggling.

And there are 20th c. examples, like György Ligeti's Requiem (twenty vocal lines plus the orchestra) or even his _Lux aeterna_, which are incredible.

Don't take this as my casting aspersions on Tallis. _Spem in alium_ is quite a remarkable achievement, and more importantly a glorious and sublime piece of music.


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## Jacck

I hope I am not mistaken, but I think I read somewhere (by that I mean comments under youtube videos and sources like that), that the Spem in Allium was composed as an English reaction to the masses of Alessandro Striggio for 40 and 60 voices. That Striggio visited England to perform his mass there, and that the English were highly impressed and said, that they are going to compose something even grander. 





edit later: actually, wikipedia confirms it
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spem_in_alium

PS: on a purely personal note, I think Striggio is the winner


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## hammeredklavier

Knorf said:


> I'd argue, no. As grand as it is, and stunningly conceived and executed, the complexity of imitation and other devices in the counterpoint is actually quite straightforward and simple, a nearly inevitable result of using so many voices. It's also harmonically quite static for the same reason. I'd argue you'll find more complexity in something like the first chorus of Bach's Cantata BWV 4, _Christ lag in Todesbanden_, which is mind-boggling.


I have to agree with this. "complexity of counterpoint" depends on many factors other than the "number of voices"- such as "rhythmic independence of the voices", or "number of subjects (in a fugue or canon)", or "usage of contrapuntal devices" (inversion, stretto, invertible counterpoint, augmentation, etc). Composers tend to simplify texture if there are too many voices to work with.


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## Mandryka

What is the recording of Spem in Alium with the smallest number of singers? Parrott?


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## Mandryka

Here's Janet Cardiff's sound installation of Spem in Alium


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## Art Rock

Found the right storage box, and listened to the piece just now (Naxos CD). It's probably over 10 years ago that I last played it, and I could not remember too much. It's an amazing piece from a conceptual point of view, for sure. It might work live for me, but from CD (well, at least from this CD) I find it not as attractive as I had hoped (not bad, but not higher than 3/6). I'll give a different version on YT a chance later this week.

EDIT: I actually like the other works by Tallis on this CD better....


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## caracalla

RICK RIEKERT said:


> Prior to the nineteenth century _Spem in alium_ was considered to be little more than an historical curiosity.


Yes, but at least that kept its nose above water while so much other EM was lost and completely forgotten for centuries. Obviously it helped that some of Tallis's simpler English hymns, responses etc remained in liturgical use (such as the tune later used by VW), so the composer wasn't just a name. Spem itself was in some demand as a study in musical engineering - there are several MS copies spanning the 17th & 18th centuries, and many more references from people interested in music who knew of 'the song of forty parts' even if they'd never seen the score. In his 'General History of Music' (1776-89) Burney discusses Spem at some length, describing it as "this stupendous, though perhaps Gothic, specimen of human labour and intellect".

Burney didn't intend 'Gothic' as a compliment. But the term was catnip for Romantics, so I don't suppose it's altogether surprising that people brought up on Scott and Byron should have attempted a revival in the 1830s & 40s (a subsidiary motive may have been to settle longstanding disputes about whether the thing was performable at all). Still, Spem didn't finally get published until 1888, and I'm very interested to learn that there had been efforts to breathe life back into it so much earlier than that. We get so used to the idea of the EM revival as a recent phenomenon, it's easy to forget that its antecedents actually go back a very long way.

As for press reactions to late-19thC performances, I don't doubt that they faithfully reflect public opinion at that time - and such sentiments were fully shared by the young Elgar. But Elgar was reacting to what he saw as a very unhealthy level of interest in EM (and particularly 16thC polyphony) that had by then taken hold in the music faculties of Oxford & Cambridge. It would be very interesting to know what (if any) linkage this had to the Aesthetic and 2nd-wave Pre-Raphaelite movements, which were then dominating the visual arts and also provoking strong reactions (as decadent and 'unmanly'). And of course Oscar Wilde, Aubrey Beardsley and all that were waiting just around the corner to blow up in the 1890s. There was a bit of a culture war going on in late-Victorian England.


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## premont

Mandryka said:


> What is the recording of Spem in Alium with the smallest number of singers? Parrott?


Nevel's is OVPP.


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## Mandryka

premont said:


> Nevel's is OVPP.


Both of them? (40 Voices and Utopia Triumphans)


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## RICK RIEKERT

caracalla said:


> Burney didn't intend 'Gothic' as a compliment. But the term was catnip for Romantics, so I don't suppose it's altogether surprising that people brought up on Scott and Byron should have attempted a revival in the 1830s & 40s (a subsidiary motive may have been to settle longstanding disputes about whether the thing was performable at all).
> 
> As for press reactions to late-19thC performances, I don't doubt that they faithfully reflect public opinion at that time - and such sentiments were fully shared by the young Elgar. But Elgar was reacting to what he saw as a very unhealthy level of interest in EM (and particularly 16thC polyphony) that had by then taken hold in the music faculties of Oxford & Cambridge.It would be very interesting to know what (if any) linkage this had to the Aesthetic and 2nd-wave Pre-Raphaelite movements, which were then dominating the visual arts and also provoking strong reactions (as decadent and 'unmanly'). And of course Oscar Wilde, Aubrey Beardsley and all that were waiting just around the corner to blow up in the 1890s. There was a bit of a culture war going on in late-Victorian England.


Two men were especially responsible for the revival of 'early music', especially Thomas Tallis's, in Great Britain in the 1830s and 40s. Sir John Leman Rogers, who joined the London Madrigal Society in 1819, and fellow society member Thomas Oliphant. _Spem in alium_ was performed twice at the anniversary dinner of the Madrigal Society in 1836 and, in collaboration with organist James Turle, Rogers organized a series of 'Tallis Days' at Westminster Abbey in the 1840s which were immensely popular. The contribution of these men to the revival of 'early music' is largely forgotten and wholly underestimated.

To your point about Romantic catnip, an account of the 1841 'Tallis Day' celebration certainly gives a more favorable assessment of Tallis's 'gothic specimen' than Burney would have done. It lists the qualities of Tallis' work and draws explicit parallels between the musical and architectural revivals: "The characteristics of Tallis's work...are vastness, gloomy grandeur, and ponderous solemnity, achieved by the most elaborate combinations and harmonies - features which to us continually associate it with the gothic in architecture, its groinings and tracery; and listened to in this most sacred of all holy places, the performance presents as near an approach to the sublime, as to minds in general is comprehensible."

The spirit of rediscovering the past in all cultural fields, including Tudor Church Music, was a sort of mini-Renaissance that began in England around 1880 and was indeed spearheaded by the pre-Raphaelites. In the embryonic field of 'early music' the spirit of rediscovery was personified by Arnold Dolmetsch, who moved to London in 1880. Under the influence of William Morris's Arts and Crafts movement, Dolmetsch's interest extended to recreating historical instruments himself and establishing workshops for that purpose in Boston and Paris.


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## premont

Mandryka said:


> Both of them? (40 Voices and Utopia Triumphans)


i can only say for sure as to Utopia Triumphans, since I wasn't aware that the work is included on 40 voices, which BTW I don't own. But I would be surprised if a larger ensemble was used for this.


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## Mandryka

I had a listen to Philip Cave do it today, it clearly is very fine performance and it clearly is a very fine bit of music. There’s something about the music which isn’t me. It is too sweet and consonant, too rich and luscious, I need a bit more pimento and lemon juice, this is all chocolate and blancmange. I’ve always had a problem with music from the first half of the c16 - Tallis, Gombert, Willaert - the post Josquin generation. Not for want of trying either.


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## caracalla

RICK RIEKERT said:


> The contribution of these men to the revival of 'early music' is largely forgotten and wholly underestimated.


Well, it's certainly news to me and I'm very grateful to you for this information. They seem to have put some real elbow into it too, so one has to wonder why it didn't 'take' at that time. I mean the Gothic Revival in architecture was very firmly in the driving seat by then (the decision to rebuild the Palace of Westminster in GR was made in 1836), and in the decorative arts neo-classicism was exhausted and rapidly giving way to a wide variety of competing revivals. In the fine arts, the Pre-Raphaelites (the name says it all) kicked off in 1848. On the face of it, the times might have seemed highly propitious for a powerful and sustained EM revival - rather more so than the tail-end of the 20thC.

I'd be interested to know what the attitude of the permanent choral establishments (ie, the cathedral and college choirs) was to all this in the 19thC. They later played a very important role in getting Renaissance music off the ground in the 1960s & 70s.


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## Allegro Con Brio

What other works by Tallis are essential? Listening to Lamentations right now by Oxford Camerata - very dark and beautiful.


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## Mandryka

Allegro Con Brio said:


> What other works by Tallis are essential? Listening to Lamentations right now by Oxford Camerata - very dark and beautiful.


This


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## Mandryka

Allegro Con Brio said:


> And a random thought I often have while listening to it: Is this the most complex counterpoint ever composed?


It isn't particularly complex counterpoint. I mean it's got 40 parts, for 8 choirs of 5 each. But they're often singing together. Just go to any piece towards the end of AoF and you'll find more complex counterpoint.


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## Allegro Con Brio

Mandryka said:


> It isn't particularly complex counterpoint. I mean it's got 40 parts, for 8 choirs of 5 each. But they're often singing together. Just go to any piece towards the end of AoF and you'll find more complex counterpoint.


Yeah, I think that or Ricercar a 6 from Musical Offering would probably have that distinction. Out of curiosity I heard the Striggio piece that Tallis based Spem upon and noticed that Striggio seems to rely a lot more on voices singing together than Tallis does, but this tends to make the textures fuller and richer. I think Tallis's piece is more delicate and subtle, though still very powerful.


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## Mandryka

Allegro Con Brio said:


> Yeah, I think that or Ricercar a 6 from Musical Offering would probably have that distinction. Out of curiosity I heard the Striggio piece that Tallis based Spem upon and noticed that Striggio seems to rely a lot more on voices singing together than Tallis does, but this tends to make the textures fuller and richer. I think Tallis's piece is more delicate and subtle, though still very powerful.


I haven't got to the end of the Striggio, it'll have to wait till I'm in the mood for it.


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## EdwardBast

Mandryka said:


> Unless Landini didn't invent the Landini cadence, I don't mean to be even more trollish than usual, but I know that dating these pieces is a minefield.





Room2201974 said:


> Well of course he didn't invent it and I didn't suggest he did. The cadence was well known to Machaut and De Vitry and others of the period. It was used well into the 15th century before dying out. Compared to the cadences in Dunstaple's Mass examples it seems archaic....a vestige of an earlier era.


I missed the kick-off of the thread, so I'm clarifying a few things in earlier posts.

The term Landini cadence is avoided these days because Landini didn't invent it and it was common property. The term currently used is _under third cadence_. The main characteristic is that instead of "ti" going directly to "do" to end a phrase, it first drops to "la." Thus: ti-la-do in the melody. Here is the very end of Dunstable's _Quam pulchra es_, an example of the under third cadence in action. The last three notes of the top line (B-A-C) are the defining feature. The line drops to A ("la,"), which is the interval of a third under the final pitch, C.


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## RICK RIEKERT

Allegro Con Brio said:


> What other works by Tallis are essential? Listening to Lamentations right now by Oxford Camerata - very dark and beautiful.


The exquisite motet _In ieiunio et fletu_ written near the end of his life shows Tallis at his most harmonically inventive. It is highly chromatic with a number of extremely exotic chord progressions and is written at a very low pitch (though it is often transposed up a major 6th) giving it a sombre coloring similar to the Lamentations. It's a brilliant example of matching music to text.


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## Simplicissimus

This _Spem in alium_ experience has been interesting, and I thank caracalla and Allegro Con Brio for the notes and discography information, which gave me a big and needed boost into the work. Although I have learned a lot about this work and Tallis this past week, I only have some shallow and obvious observations to share.

The essential thing about the work for me is that it is basically an octet with harmonic and contrapuntal characteristics of vocal and instrumental pieces for eight voices from this period. I know that it's in fact much more complex than that because of what's going on internally within each of the eight choirs in addition to the eight choir "voices." But after listening to it a few times, I accepted that I could not penetrate the chordal aspects of the individual choirs. Perhaps I could in a live performance where I could read lips and get spatial differentiation, but in all of the recordings (stereo only, I didn't experience a surround sound recording) I was really dealing with eight voices in terms of the harmonies and counterpoint; I perceived the music as consisting basically of eight pitches constructing chords and counterpoint and rhythms. But what makes this music different from an actual octet is that the timbre of the choirs, with their five voices, is much different from the timbre of individual voices or instruments, so this huge vocal work has an unusual and very impressive sonority. In a sense it seems to have been ahead of its time, as creation of very complex sonorities didn't really take off (I might be wrong here) until orchestras got large during the Classical period and beyond, and orchestration techniques involved doubling, etc., in order to achieve interesting sonorities. All this is perhaps to state the obvious, but I had to do quite a lot of listening and thinking in order to arrive at this understanding.

Via my streaming service, I was able to listen to the Tallis Scholars, Oxford Camerata, and the Pro Cantione Antiqua. I appreciated the Pro Cantione Antiqua's lower voices as well as their slow tempi, which really didn't drag for me. That said, the faster versions with more prominent higher voices also worked well, except that I found the Oxford Camerata shrill at times.

What an adventure. I hope I can experience _Spem in alium_ performed live someday. I'd say that it's on my bucket list, but I'm too old to have a bucket list, I only have a long f*ckit list.


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## caracalla

Simplicissimus said:


> I know that it's in fact much more complex than that because of what's going on internally within each of the eight choirs in addition to the eight choir "voices." But after listening to it a few times, I accepted that I could not penetrate the chordal aspects of the individual choirs.


Seems like you could use a visit to Janet Cardiff's '40-part Motet' installation (vide Mandryka's #53). As each speaker caries one individually-miked voice, and they're placed in groups of 5 as per performance, stepping back a couple of paces should allow listeners to concentrate on the production of specific choirs.

I'd be keen to see/hear this myself. She says it's already been exhibited in fifty different locations worldwide, so that's not an unreasonable hope. I gather it's also become part of the permanent collection at MoMA in New York, though I don't suppose it's always on display there.


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## Allegro Con Brio

*June 14-June 21: Anonymous (12th century) - Le Chant des Templiers (Chant of the Templars)*

Nominated by: Mandryka

Here is a link to the YouTube playlist of the album that Mandryka has chosen for this week. It can also be found on all streaming services. I'm sure we'll get lots of great background information from Mandryka, but here's the Wikipedia article about the Knights Templar, which may make for useful background reading about the Catholic military order that created this music. I'm excited to dive into this; totally new territory for me!


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## Mandryka

The Templars was a medieval international army of Christian religious zealots. The songs on this Peres CD all come from a manuscript which was found in their HQ in Jerusalem. It is nearly 1000 years old. This is the sort of thing









No written records exist which describe what this music is meant to sound like.

There are groups of singers and instrumentalists in Europe and the Near East which are very ancient, with musicians alive today who know how to make music in ways which which go way back. The way they form sounds, the way they sing together, they way they make phrases and decorate a phrase, the way they form a pulse and make it all flow -- all these things are passed from generation to generation orally. Marcel Peres used their skills to make sense of the manuscript, to turn it into music.

One thing we do know is this: when people used to sing this music in Medieval times, they would sway from one leg to the other to keep the beat. This means, I think, that the music wasn't just sung: this is music for movement. You may enjoy dancing to the singing in a similar way as you listen - I do!

To introduce the manuscript, I've chosen a setting of the _Kyrie_. We all know that the _Kyrie _comes at the start of a mass, but it had another function: you would sing it before soldiers went to fight in battle, presumably to fill them with righteous fighting spirit. When I listen to this Kyrie, that's how I imagine it!






And no introduction of this manuscript would be complete without the extraordinary _Salve Regina_. This is a prayer in three parts, the second is a poetic reference to the miracle of the incarnation -- God becoming man in the womb of Mary. It is quite a different feeling from the belligerent Kyrie, and I think the drone and rapt singing creates a sense of mystery, appropriately.






Hail, holy Queen, Mother of Mercy,
Hail our life, our sweetness and our hope.
To thee do we cry,
Poor banished children of Eve;
To thee do we send up our sighs,
Mourning and weeping in this valley of tears.

Turn then, most gracious advocate,
Thine eyes of mercy toward us;
And after this our exile,
Show unto us the blessed fruit of thy womb, Jesus.
O clement, O loving,
O sweet Virgin Mary.

Pray for us, O holy Mother of God,
that we may be made worthy of the promises of Christ.


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## caracalla

That Salve Regina is incredible.

I don't know how much of this I can take at one sitting, but am greatly looking forward to exploring this disc over the coming week.


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## premont

Despite the sensational layout of the Spem in Alium (composed for eight five-part choirs) I hear it as a rather minimalistic and static piece of music using the same music again and again without much variation and without noticeable complex counterpoint or harmonic daringness. Most of the time we hear sequences of closely related triads either broken or chordwise (Contenance Angloise?). But it must be added, that a phonographic reproduction cannot do the piece full justice, because it is next to impossible to perceive the antiphony, which may be the main impact of the piece. This would be easier in a church with some degree of damping acoustics. But this is not a piece of music I shall return to that often. On the other hand I have acquired Parrott's Tallis twofer intending to learn more about Tallis' sacred music.


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## Art Rock

_Anonymous (12th century) - Le Chant des Templiers (Chant of the Templars)
_
Completely new to me. I listened to the two recommended YouTube excerpts - well, the Kyrie complete and the first half of the Salve Regina. This is simply not music for me. So be it.


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## RICK RIEKERT

caracalla said:


> That Salve Regina is incredible.


And no wonder. The Knights Templar were always dedicated to honoring the Divine Feminine principle, as the spiritual feminine aspect of God. In the Temple Rule, the Templar Clergy are described as serving by "the authority of Our Lady of God [Damedieu]" (Rule 64). The great Christian mystic and Templar Patron Saint Bernard de Clairvaux, in his speech _In Praise of the New Knighthood_ (ca. 1136 AD), highlighted the prominent and central role of the Divine Feminine principle in Templar spirituality, and declared that the Templar Order is dedicated to serving as sovereign Protectors and Restorers of the Feminine face of God:

"O Virgin of [God], you were fallen and there was none to raise you up. Arise now and shake off the dust, O Virgin, captive daughter of [God]. … You will no longer be referred to as the forsaken one… All these [Templar Knights] are gathered together and come to you. Here is the help sent to you from the Holy One! … You will suck the milk of the nations and be nourished at the breasts of their sovereignty."

Saint Bernard de Clairvaux also instructed the Templars on the proper manner of singing these ancient and early medieval chants: "I exhort you… to conduct yourselves in the presence of the Lord with ardour [energy]… making your voices resound with manliness in order that they may be possessed by the moving of the Holy Spirit."


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## Mandryka

https://drive.google.com/file/d/12Wy6R1RI4RYmBsTALWOY-HfndwEc_Oe0/view?usp=sharing

The link above should take you to the _Salve Regina_ sung without Byzantine inflections, from an old LP _Musique Sacrée des Templiers_ sung by Groupe Grégorien De La Chorale Ste Cécile D' Embourg









San Antone -- where are you? -- this is for you!


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## Simplicissimus

RICK RIEKERT said:


> And no wonder. The Knights Templar were always dedicated to honoring the Divine Feminine principle, as the spiritual feminine aspect of God. In the Temple Rule, the Templar Clergy are described as serving by "the authority of Our Lady of God [Damedieu]" (Rule 64). The great Christian mystic and Templar Patron Saint Bernard de Clairvaux, in his speech _In Praise of the New Knighthood_ (ca. 1136 AD), highlighted the prominent and central role of the Divine Feminine principle in Templar spirituality, and declared that the Templar Order is dedicated to serving as sovereign Protectors and Restorers of the Feminine face of God:
> 
> "O Virgin of [God], you were fallen and there was none to raise you up. Arise now and shake off the dust, O Virgin, captive daughter of [God]. … You will no longer be referred to as the forsaken one… All these [Templar Knights] are gathered together and come to you. Here is the help sent to you from the Holy One! … You will suck the milk of the nations and be nourished at the breasts of their sovereignty."
> 
> Saint Bernard de Clairvaux also instructed the Templars on the proper manner of singing these ancient and early medieval chants: "I exhort you… to conduct yourselves in the presence of the Lord with ardour [energy]… making your voices resound with manliness in order that they may be possessed by the moving of the Holy Spirit."


That's some pretty unorthodox Christian theology you've got there, equating the Blessed Virgin Mary with God. I rather suspect that the Knights Templar practiced devotion to the BVM according to the catholic, and enforced, understanding of her role in salvation history promulgated by the Council of Nicaea. Your view of the Divine Feminine principle doesn't offend me or anything like that. I just doubt that it animated the music at hand. Veneration of the BVM certainly did.


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## premont

Mandryka said:


> One thing we do know is this: when people used to sing this music in Medieval times, they would sway from one leg to the other to keep the beat. This means, I think, that the music wasn't just sung: this is music for movement. You may enjoy dancing to the singing in a similar way as you listen - I do!


Well, I can understand this so far it's about the music from the Notre Dame school, but not here - at least not in the way Pérès interpretes the music.

The sheet music is impossible to get hold of and I do not have access to the booklet of this recording. Do you by any chance know whether the parallel organum here is indicated in the score or added by Pérès?


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## Mandryka

premont said:


> Well, I can understand this so far it's about the music from the Notre Dame school, but not here - at least not in the way Pérès interpretes the music.
> 
> The sheet music is impossible to get hold of and I do not have access to the booklet of this recording. Do you by any chance know whether the parallel organum here is indicated in the score or added by Pérès?


Here's the booklet

https://drive.google.com/file/d/17TITFtS-p7qQ1Ps7kxYsxOY7HU6OQieV/view?usp=sharing

I too looked for Pérès's performing edition and came up with nothing, indeed the only image I could find of the manuscript was the one I posted. I can ask one of the singers on the recording (Dominique Gatté.)

Parallel Organum was sometimes specifically indicated, the image below of an 11th century manuscript is an example (Ms 86 Bibliothèque municipale d'Avranche), but somehow I have the impression that it's the exception rather than the rule to see it notated, even though people think the practice was widespread in France from very early times.


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## Mandryka

I'd be very interested to know whether people prefer Peres's _Salve Regina_ to the Groupe Grégorien De La Chorale Ste Cécile D' Embourg -- just as a musical experience.


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## premont

Mandryka said:


> Here's the booklet
> 
> https://drive.google.com/file/d/17TITFtS-p7qQ1Ps7kxYsxOY7HU6OQieV/view?usp=sharing
> 
> I too looked for Pérès's performing edition and came up with nothing, indeed the only image I could find of the manuscript was the one I posted. I can ask one of the singers on the recording (Dominique Gatté.)
> 
> Parallel Organum was sometimes specifically indicated, the image below of an 11th century manuscript is an example (Ms 86 Bibliothèque municipale d'Avranche), but somehow I have the impression that it's the exception rather than the rule to see it notated, even though people think the practice was widespread in France from very early times.
> 
> View attachment 137909


Thanks very much.


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## Allegro Con Brio

Wow, listening to this Chant of the Templars makes me feel utterly transported. This is music that seems like it’s coming from another realm. Austere, elemental, visceral. But I hesitate to call it beautiful, or music that I genuinely enjoy. I think it will take a lot more work for me to get to the point where I will actively enjoy listening to this, but for now I find it utterly fascinating, mainly for the extreme importance of rhythm.


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## Simplicissimus

Allegro Con Brio said:


> Wow, listening to this Chant of the Templars makes me feel utterly transported. This is music that seems like it's coming from another realm. Austere, elemental, visceral. But I hesitate to call it beautiful, or music that I genuinely enjoy. I think it will take a lot more work for me to get to the point where I will actively enjoy listening to this, but for now I find it utterly fascinating, mainly for the extreme importance of rhythm.


Yes, rhythm. @Mandryka also commented on the probability that the performers swayed or somehow moved. It seems we have here an example of the elemental connection between music and dance. This connection gradually weakened with Western art music, but in my forays into world music it is often very noticeable. Fascinating.


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## Mandryka

Allegro Con Brio said:


> I find it utterly fascinating, mainly for the extreme importance of rhythm.


Have you noticed how, in the Peres performance of the Kyrie, when there are singers singing together, they don't sing the same pitch quite, they make some very subtle scrunchy harmonies?


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## Mandryka

Simplicissimus said:


> Yes, rhythm. @Mandryka also commented on the probability that the performers swayed or somehow moved. It seems we have here an example of the elemental connection between music and dance. This connection gradually weakened with Western art music, but in my forays into world music it is often very noticeable. Fascinating.


It would be nice to see a production of the kyrie with movement like this


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## Jacck

at some moments, the templars' chants reminded me of the Hobbit soundtrack by Howard Shore (the vocal parts of the soundtrack). It is an OK music, I can imagine myself listening to it from time to time. Though I find the CD "Chants de l'Église de Rome" by Peres more interesting musically. Those are Roman chants from the 8th century and sound byzantine.


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## Allegro Con Brio

Mandryka said:


> Have you noticed how, in the Peres performance of the Kyrie, when there are singers singing together, they don't sing the same pitch quite, they make some very subtle scrunchy harmonies?


Yes, I did actually notice that. I wonder what the historical justification may be for it.


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## Mandryka

Allegro Con Brio said:


> Yes, I did actually notice that. I wonder what the historical justification may be for it.


None. It's an ancient Byzantine practice but who can say if it goes back to the 12 century? I think Pérès just thought it was worth trying it out as an experiment, especially given that the manuscript was found in Jerusalem. In my opinion the results are quite interesting to hear, so an experiment worth doing.


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## Allegro Con Brio

I would be interested to know more about how Peres, and anyone who attempts to perform music this early, deals with making a performable product from such rough, elemental notation. It almost seems like composing your own piece based off the barest of starting points. Or am I mistaken?


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## caracalla

Mandryka said:


> I'd be very interested to know whether people prefer Peres's _Salve Regina_ to the Groupe Grégorien De La Chorale Ste Cécile D' Embourg -- just as a musical experience.


OK, I've now listened to the Chorale Ste Cécile d'Embourg doing the Salve Regina.

To cut to the chase, I didn't like it. I've given it two hearings, but can't say I've found it in any way interesting, or beautiful, or evocative, or anything else I might hope to find in a piece of music. It isn't rebarbative, just wholly unarresting, and sounds to me like they're simply singing the score into the aural record for academic reference purposes. If so, that's an entirely valid thing to do, but afaiac it's not nearly enough to make the music come alive for general listeners. At any event, if I'd happened on this in the usual way, I know I'd have quickly moved on without a backward glance - something which happens all too often with mediaeval chant.

That would have been a mistake in this case, as I think Pérès & EO have managed to transform this SR into something rather special. Whether I'd have found it so if I weren't already acclimatised (or inured!) to their approach, I don't know, but in any case I find it highly effective - "austere, elemental, visceral" as ACB says, and above all "music that seems like it's coming from another realm". For me, that's important. For all their distance in time, people like Tallis and Palestrina belong to the same modern world we do. This stuff does not, and I want to hear that alien quality. If they have to go to Constantinople or Coptic Egypt to get it, that's fine by me - and I'm certainly open to other experiments along these lines. However it's done, I suspect heavy intervention will always be required to produce convincing results in music of this vintage.

Convincing and enjoyable are not synonyms. Imho the Salve Regina is definitely the stand-out here. Terrific stuff. I also like the Honor virtus (drone again), and am making reasonable progress with Media vita. Some of the others, I think, may be quite a slog.

Thanks for linking to the booklet btw. I couldn't find it - or the info I wanted from it - anywhere. The HM site has some excuse, as their disc is a reissue from another label, but I think EO could and should be a lot more informative on theirs.


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## Mandryka

caracalla said:


> For all their distance in time, people like Tallis and Palestrina belong to the same modern world we do.


That's disputable. I know that much recent reception performs their music in a quasi baroque style but there may be other ways. Have a listen to this performance of a Palestrina song


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## 20centrfuge

I listened to most of the Dunstable works a few times with mixed results. Some parts I enjoyed and sometimes I was bored. I think early listening is a different type of listening than what I am used to. I have to learn to not treat it like contemporary classical music. It does seem important to understand the different occasions the music was written for - secular, religious, celebratory, dance, etc.

The Spem in Allium work by Tallis is one I have heard before and genuinely like.

This work - the Chant des Templiers is interesting-ish. I'll listen more and try to learn about it.

I hope you all are ok with me being a Neanderthal listener in this thread. I will dabble and do what I can here and there. I am sure some works I will learn to really like and some will miss me entirely.


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## caracalla

I think its only disputable if we're willing to throw away the Middle Ages (and therefore also the Renaissance) as major historical concepts, which in general terms I'm not. 

That said, I concede that music fits the broader pattern rather badly. There's no such thing, really, as 'Renaissance music' - the term can only mean 'music of the Renaissance period', because music was entirely peripheral to the main cultural drama. Others could and did go back to Antiquity in their efforts to reboot Western civilisation, but the musicians were stuck with their mediaeval heritage. As there was no radical disconnect with the past, people like Schmelzer are free to speculate about mediaeval practices carrying forward.

It's true that the current presentation of Late Renaissance music is merely a convention and wide open to challenge. Sooner or later, I have no doubt that it will be superseded - though not, I fervently hope, by Graindelavoix if that's their idea of Palestrina. I note the video hails from 2011, so their approach doesn't appear to have caught on. Even so, it's a pity their site carries only hostile criticism of this exercise in English. I'd be intrigued to know what their supporters had to say, but they write in Dutch.


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## Mandryka

caracalla said:


> I think its only disputable if we're willing to throw away the Middle Ages (and therefore also the Renaissance) as major historical concepts, which in general terms I'm not.
> 
> That said, I concede that music fits the broader pattern rather badly. There's no such thing, really, as 'Renaissance music' - the term can only mean 'music of the Renaissance period', because music was entirely peripheral to the main cultural drama. Others could and did go back to Antiquity in their efforts to reboot Western civilisation, but the musicians were stuck with their mediaeval heritage. As there was no radical disconnect with the past, people like Schmelzer are free to speculate about mediaeval practices carrying forward.
> 
> It's true that the current presentation of Late Renaissance music is merely a convention and wide open to challenge. Sooner or later, I have no doubt that it will be superseded - though not, I fervently hope, by Graindelavoix if that's their idea of Palestrina. I note the video hails from 2011, so their approach doesn't appear to have caught on. Even so, it's a pity their site carries only hostile criticism of this exercise in English. I'd be intrigued to know what their supporters had to say, but they write in Dutch.


Yes well I know nothing about Palestrina so I can't comment!


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## Allegro Con Brio

For this week, Isorhythm has nominated Gombert’s 8 Magnificats, but that’s a lot of music for one week. I PM’d him to see if there were a couple individual works from the set that would be best for the group to focus on. If I don’t hear back, would anyone else who’s knowledgeable about these works be willing to suggest which ones would be most worthy of our time? Or just have everyone explore at their own pace?


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## Mandryka

Yes I can make some comments about the Gombert if necessary.


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## Marc

Mandryka said:


> […]
> One thing we do know is this: when people used to sing this music in Medieval times, they would sway from one leg to the other to keep the beat. This means, I think, that the music wasn't just sung: this is music for movement. You may enjoy dancing to the singing in a similar way as you listen - I do!
> […]


Swaying from one leg to another also helps to keep your breath low.
Long time ago I sang in a choir and I took some singing lessons. I was struggling with breathing too high. So my teacher put me on some kind of wooden 'half moon' to make me sway and it helped an awful lot. I sang like an angel, no kidding. But she said: "you should still practice though to keep your breath low, because we can't take this thing to a concert." I asked her: "swaying from one leg to another, would that help?" "Yes, it would, but it might look too silly too." I did sway from time to time though, even though the conductor wasn't very happy with it. It did not help as much as that wooden thing, but it surely brought some extra space and relaxation to body and breathing.


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## Jacck

here are the magnificats
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_kVaVLFcBgLSR_q2ycA82oFnO3W6HiMa0Q
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_ndrwvxIgBV5YRxvcPLu8JFc6IGHD8W-v0


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## Simplicissimus

Jacck said:


> here are the magnificats
> https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_kVaVLFcBgLSR_q2ycA82oFnO3W6HiMa0Q
> https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_ndrwvxIgBV5YRxvcPLu8JFc6IGHD8W-v0


I have these recordings through my streaming service (Amazon HD). It's two CDs by Peter Phillips/Tallis Scholars, four magnificats each, which were released in 2002 on the Gimell label. I looked up the recording information on discogs and didn't find recording dates, but the venue was the Church of Saint Peter and Saint Paul, Salle, Norfolk, England. The ambience is moderately reverberative and sounds pleasant to me. I note from the discogs credits that the soprano voices are women (I guess they would have been boys in Gombert's time), and the altos are a mixture of females and males (countertenors). I've started listening to these recordings and they strike me as excellent performances with great sound. I'm hearing the highly imitative counterpoint and _musica ficta_ chords that I have read about in relation to Gombert's style. Much more to experience, enjoy, and learn in the course of the coming week!


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## Mandryka

Simplicissimus said:


> I have these recordings through my streaming service (Amazon HD). It's two CDs by Peter Phillips/Tallis Scholars, four magnificats each, which were released in 2002 on the Gimell label. I looked up the recording information on discogs and didn't find recording dates, but the venue was the Church of Saint Peter and Saint Paul, Salle, Norfolk, England. The ambience is moderately reverberative and sounds pleasant to me. I note from the discogs credits that the soprano voices are women (I guess they would have been boys in Gombert's time), and the altos are a mixture of females and males (countertenors). I've started listening to these recordings and they strike me as excellent performances with great sound. I'm hearing the highly imitative counterpoint and _musica ficta_ chords that I have read about in relation to Gombert's style. Much more to experience, enjoy, and learn in the course of the coming week!


If you have amazon streaming, maybe see what you make of the very contrasting, less vigorous, approach to a couple of these magnificats on this CD by Bo Holten.









And a third highly contrasting approach is on the magnificat in this CD









Other notable recordings of magnificats exist, from Henry's Eight and a sweet rich sounding performance of one from Huelgas Ensemble.

None of these are recommedations, just a shot at a discography of the music.


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## Allegro Con Brio

06/21-06/28: Featured Composer - Nicolas Gombert (1495-1560)

Nominated Work: 8 Magnificats _(submitted by: isorhythm)_

I think we can just work through these compositions at our own pace.

Wiki on Gombert: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicolas_Gombert

A composer I haven't heard a note of music from, so excited to dive in.


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## Knorf

Nicolas Gombert was an amazing composer, with an even more amazing story. The tale is devastating, horrific, but ultimately transcendent. Are people here broadly familiar with it? Here are the highlights, such as they are:

Gombert had a tremendous early to mid career in the court of Charles V. He was _magister puerorum_ ("master of the boys") for the royal chapel, and unofficially one of the court composers.
In 1540, he was tried and convicted for sexual contact with one of the choir boys, and sentenced to the galleys. Yes, _those_ Spanish galleys. Most people so convicted die there.
Somehow, he managed to keep composing. These details are unclear, the how and the why of rowing in the galleys and still finding moments to write music. 
Sometime in 1547, Gombert was officially pardoned. The story is that is was these _Magnificat_ settings that moved Charles V into signing off on setting Gombert free. 
From some of the preserved correspondence, it is a plausible narrative that Gombert was genuinely repentant.
Gombert lived out his life in peace, gradually faded into obscurity, certainly was never allowed to interact with boys again, and died in 1561.
As far as his music goes, his style is quite distinctive, for the bold dissonances and cross relations, the densely woven counterpoint, and an ear for choral balance that favored low voices in close spacing.


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## Art Rock

Gombert... I had heard the name before, but to my knowledge, I never heard any of his works. I just listened to the first two Magnificats via the Youtube links provided. Not my cup of tea, I'm afraid. A bit too fragmented, and after two of them, I had no appetite for more. Soit.


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## Mandryka

For me the challenge of the music isn’t the fragmentation, they’re no more fragmented than something like Kreisleriana in fact, or Bartok’s 6th quartet. There are major challenges though: 

1. Relief. I know the chanted verses break it up, but the polyphonic verses sound a bit dense at times. In fact there is often a caesura somewhere and the style changes after, but you have to be alert enough to notice and appreciate. 

2. Expressiveness. I think there’s a tendency to take the music so quick that it doesn’t sound very expressive, it sounds a bit like a vigorous, academic, well-made canon, albeit bold harmonically (but let’s not exaggerate - Gombert is no Gesualdo or De Wert - he’s very much in Josquin’s wake.) The people who take it slowly can make it sound much more interesting (this is Bo Holten’s strength, Peter Philips’s weakness, IMO. Bo Holten has his own weaknesses and Philips has many redeeming features.) 

3. Variety amongst the polyphonic verses. In fact, each polyphonic verse has a different number of voices, and the last verse is often like fireworks. but you have to be alert enough to notice. 


4. Variety among the magnificats. I’m not sure about this myself - like Chopin mazurkas or Ockeghem’s Missae Cuiusvis Toni, they can all sound a bit the same.

A lot of the above applies to many composers’ polyphonic music from the first half of the 16th century - Willaert, Manchicourt. 

These magnificats were allegedly very influential on keyboard music, and indeed listening to them today I couldn’t help think of Titelouze.


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## Jacck

this is quite a beautiful motet from Gombert

Nicolas Gombert: In Te Domine Speravi - Motet for 6 voices





and his mass Missa Quam pulchra is quite beautiful too





(personally like it more than the magnificats)


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## science

Just throwing this out -- the rich counterpoint of Gombert's _Magnificats_ might have been one of the factors that led to the famous myth about Palestrina saving polyphonic liturgical music.


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## Jacck

I wonder what is the right way to listen to these polyphonic works. Either you can try to follow one voice, or let you attention wander from one voice to the other (which one grabs your attention) or you can somehow try to perceive it as a whole, without concentration on a single voice. I think these works are meant to be listened to in "surround sound" of a church.


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## Knorf

Jacck said:


> I wonder what is the right way to listen to these polyphonic works. Either you can try to follow one voice, or let you attention wander from one voice to the other (which one grabs your attention) or you can somehow try to perceive it as a whole, without concentration on a single voice. I think these works are meant to be listened to in "surround sound" of a church.


There is no right way. Listen as you will. Try everything you mention.

Well, hang on. The closest to the best way would be to sing one of the parts with a choir!


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## isorhythm

Hi everyone - work got unexpectedly busier for me soon after I asked to participate in this thread, but I've been listening along as I've been able and have enjoyed the other nominations thoroughly.

I would suggest focusing on the Tallis Scholars' recording of Magnificats 1-4, which is available on streaming services.

I'm no kind of scholar so I'll leave a link to the liner notes here: https://www.hyperion-records.co.uk/dc.asp?dc=D_CDGIM037

I don't think there's a "right way" to listen to this or any other polyphonic music. I personally never try to focus on individual lines or anything like that. What distinguishes these pieces from contemporary pieces for me is the sense of uninterrupted flow and intensity in each polyphonic section - I suppose that's what necessitates the chant verses, for relief.


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## Mandryka

Jacck said:


> I wonder what is the right way to listen to these polyphonic works.


0. Find the text of a Magnificat and a translation in a language you understand.

1. Take one Magnificat.

2. If you're listening to the Peter Philips, definitely cut the chant at the top and the tail, but keep the other chant if you like -- it's up to you.

3. Listen to a polyphonic verse following the text -- ask yourself: is there a caesura? How is it marked -- by a pause, by a specially strong cadence or what? Is there a good reason in the text for putting the caesura there? Does the style of the music change before and after the caesura? Is it more or less melismatic? More or less syllabic? How many voices are there? Is there any interesting relation between the text and the music? Is this at all expressive of meanings in the text?

4. Repeat for the other polyphonic sections -- all the time comparing and contrasting with what you have previously discovered.

5. STOP. Have a drink. Do it again. Keep telling yourself: no-one said this was going to be easy.


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## Mandryka

The Magnificat


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## mmsbls

I love Gombert's Magnificats. I understand that some may view the added voices as muddling the sound, but I generally enjoy added voices and find the those voices wonderful, if done well. I'm not sure if I prefer one or more Magnificats over others. I generally listen to 4 at a time (one CD) and love them all.


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## RICK RIEKERT

I've been listening to Gombert's _Magnificat tertii et octavi toni_. It's a splendid piece that's remarkable for its expanding texture. While remaining true to convention by setting each even verse polyphonically, Gombert adds a voice part as each subsequent polyphonic verse unfolds. The second verse, the first polyphonic verse, is set for three voices and by the final polyphonic verse Gombert's setting expands to include eight voices. I expect it's Gombert's way of bringing the work to a stunning climax on the final Magnificat verse, similar to the Agnus Dei of the Ordinary of the Mass.


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## Mandryka

Deleted because I confused 3/8 tone with 8 tone!


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## Allegro Con Brio

Mandryka said:


> I think there's a tendency to take the music so quick that it doesn't sound very expressive, it sounds a bit like a vigorous, academic, well-made canon, albeit bold harmonically (but let's not exaggerate - Gombert is no Gesualdo or De Wert - he's very much in Josquin's wake.) The people who take it slowly can make it sound much more interesting (this is Bo Holten's strength, Peter Philips's weakness, IMO. Bo Holten has his own weaknesses and Philips has many redeeming features.)


My impression as well. The polyphony is very beautiful and impressive, but I feel that the Tallis Scholars sound perhaps a bit too mechanical and academic on their 1-4 disc. I haven't heard any other performances yet, but something tells me this music might reward different performance approaches.


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## Simplicissimus

Allegro Con Brio said:


> My impression as well. The polyphony is very beautiful and impressive, but I feel that the Tallis Scholars sound perhaps a bit too mechanical and academic on their 1-4 disc. I haven't heard any other performances yet, but something tells me this music might reward different performance approaches.


Interesting and possibly key observations by ACB and Mandryka. I've been listening happily to the Tallis Scholars, whose albums I'm streaming, but there are bits and pieces of other performances on Youtube that I need to check out now. To be continued.


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## Mandryka

Allegro Con Brio said:


> My impression as well. The polyphony is very beautiful and impressive, but I feel that the Tallis Scholars sound perhaps a bit too mechanical and academic on their 1-4 disc. I haven't heard any other performances yet, but something tells me this music might reward different performance approaches.


I have no idea how tempo is determined in this sort of music.


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## Allegro Con Brio

I find Oxford Camerata's reading of Magnificat 1 to be quite a bit more engaging than the Tallis Scholars:


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## premont

Jacck said:


> I wonder what is the right way to listen to these polyphonic works. Either you can try to follow one voice, or let you attention wander from one voice to the other (which one grabs your attention) or you can somehow try to perceive it as a whole, without concentration on a single voice. I think these works are meant to be listened to in "surround sound" of a church.


The question is whether one should listen in an analytical way or in a more intuitive way. One is free to choose. It may be interesting sometimes to listen in an analytical way to get to know a work better from within, but as to me I enjoy the music the most when I submerge into it and listen in a purely intuitive way.


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## classical yorkist

premont said:


> The question is whether one should listen in an analytical way or in a more intuitive way. One is free to choose. It may be interesting sometimes to listen in an analytical way to get to know a work better from within, but as to me I enjoy the music the most when I submerge into it and listen in a purely intuitive way.


As a music lover who struggles and struggles to understand and comprehend any element of music theory all my listening is emotional rather than analytical. The only time this varies is when I engage with the works on a sociological level, contextualising them with their time. I used to worry that I was missing out by not being able to 'understand' a work but now it doesn't really bother me. An emotional response is just as valid as a technical one. I suspect the majority of the audience had only emotional responses to the music.


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## caracalla

Allegro Con Brio said:


> I find Oxford Camerata's reading of Magnificat 1 to be quite a bit more engaging than the Tallis Scholars


I think so. Moreover, Summerly has some cracking motets and other pieces to go with it, notably Musae Iovis (the lament for Josquin) - all beautifully done. If there's anything out there with the potential to 'popularise' Gombert, this disc is probably the one.

In general, I'm finding these Magnificats pretty heavy going - between the first and last verses, which I usually find more compelling, my concentration wanders. I don't know exactly what the problem is, but suspect the relentless density of polyphonic texture and restricted tessituras have a lot to do with it. Be that as it may, the emotional charge of some kind I want from music of any era just isn't forthcoming. Reading Philips' notes (and Summerly's for that matter), it's clear that people who know their Renaissance polyphony backwards have the highest admiration for these pieces, and the cognoscenti in Gombert's own day seem to have shared this view. Nevertheless, I suspect that what we have here is advanced Gombert for connoisseurs, and that for me to get much more out of it would require a great deal of work.

After sampling alternative performances (sometimes just fragments, as accessible), I think the only approach I prefer to the TS - or would be likely to - is Summerly's, but it's not a game changer. There are several other things on his disc I find a lot more appealing. Earlier Gombert with a little more daylight (and desire to please?) is not a problem, indeed often enchanting, and I'm glad to have made several new discoveries in the course of this exercise.


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## Mandryka

Like it or not, there’s no denying that this is a very impressive cycle contrapuntally. De Rore and Willaert both left single magnificats, but they’re nowhere near as impressive as any of the eight Gombert settings from any point of view - and the importance of the Gombert cycle in the history of music is significant. Titelouze was born about the time that Gombert died - his magnificat cycle is possibly impressive as Gombert’s, possibly not, and, like Gombert’s, repays repeated listening. What I’m basically saying is, give it time, there’s a knack of listening to this sort of counterpoint which needs to be cultivated if the music is to be appreciated. We’ve lost touch with the poetry of these old songs. I’m very glad that this music was chosen because revisiting it, I’ve come to terms with it more.


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## Allegro Con Brio

caracalla said:


> I think so. Moreover, Summerly has some cracking motets and other pieces to go with it, notably Musae Iovis (the lament for Josquin) - all beautifully done. If there's anything out there with the potential to 'popularise' Gombert, this disc is probably the one.
> 
> In general, I'm finding these Magnificats pretty heavy going - between the first and last verses, which I usually find more compelling, my concentration wanders. I don't know exactly what the problem is, but suspect the relentless density of polyphonic texture and restricted tessituras have a lot to do with it. Be that as it may, the emotional charge of some kind I want from music of any era just isn't forthcoming. Reading Philips' notes (and Summerly's for that matter), it's clear that people who know their Renaissance polyphony backwards have the highest admiration for these pieces, and the cognoscenti in Gombert's own day seem to have shared this view. Nevertheless, I suspect that what we have here is advanced Gombert for connoisseurs, and that for me to get much more out of it would require a great deal of work.
> 
> After sampling alternative performances (sometimes just fragments, as accessible), I think the only approach I prefer to the TS - or would be likely to - is Summerly's, but it's not a game changer. There are several other things on his disc I find a lot more appealing. Earlier Gombert with a little more daylight (and desire to please?) is not a problem, indeed often enchanting, and I'm glad to have made several new discoveries in the course of this exercise.


Totally agreed. Listening to this right now from the Summerly album, and holy cow, is it beautiful. The Magnificats just seem a tad academic for me right now in my early stages of early music appreciation.


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## Simplicissimus

Allegro Con Brio said:


> I find Oxford Camerata's reading of Magnificat 1 to be quite a bit more engaging than the Tallis Scholars:


Really glad to hear this performance for comparison. I'm noticing the entry points (or moments) for the polyphonic voices and how these depend upon the tempo (if that makes sense). This seems to be a major aspect of the expressiveness of the interpretation of the music in performance. I find the Tallis Scholars more to my taste than the Oxford Camerata, but sound quality is involved, as I'm gettin the former in CD-quality streaming and the latter via YT. I like the vocal timbre of the TS in the higher parts better. The imitative nature of the polyphony is more pronounced to me with the TS. The OC seems less strictly imitative. I think that very fine scholarship and exacting performance standards underlie both ensembles' recordings. What a treat!


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## caracalla

Mandryka said:


> What I'm basically saying is, give it time, there's a knack of listening to this sort of counterpoint which needs to be cultivated if the music is to be appreciated. We've lost touch with the poetry of these old songs.


I'll let it lie for a bit and come back to it. I find with music I'm not getting that persevering past a certain point is rarely productive, while starting afresh after a break sometimes works wonders. With luck, the subconscious may persuade it to be more co-operative in the interim.


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## Mandryka

caracalla said:


> I'll let it lie for a bit and come back to it. I find with music I'm not getting that persevering past a certain point is rarely productive, while starting afresh after a break sometimes works wonders. With luck, the subconscious may persuade it to be more co-operative in the interim.


It took me about 10 years


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## Allegro Con Brio

*06/28-07/05: Featured Composer - Gautier de Coincy (1177-1236) *

_Nominated Work - Les Miracles de Nostre-Dame (submitted by: Portamento)_

From Wiki:

_Gautier de Coincy (1177-1236) was a French abbot, poet and musical arranger, chiefly known for his devotion to the Virgin Mary.

While he served as prior of Vic-sur-Aisne he compiled Les Miracles de Nostre-Dame (known in English as The Miracles of Notre Dame or The Miracles of Our Lady) in which he set poems in praise of the Virgin Mary to popular melodies and songs of his day. It is a reverential but humorous work, full of love for the cult of the Virgin Mary, which at that time also received attention from Saint Bernard of Clairvaux who was the leading medieval proponent of veneration of the Virgin as a counterbalance to the more rigorous Christian scholasticism, then the dominating spiritual force.

Unlike Clairvaux's more sombre tomes, de Coincy's book (whilst sharing much of the same ideological bedrock) tends more towards the indulgent or soft-hearted. Many of the songs de Coincy wrote were set to popular ballads then in vogue at the royal court, or borrowed the tune of pastoral or romantic ditties. The Miracles of Our Lady is one of the most popular works of Marianist literature from the period and it encapsulates a very particular set of Christian values, which saw in the Virgin Mary the most benevolent and humanistic aspect of salvation, intercession and mercy. Many of the songs are concerned with the key elements of the Virgin's earthly life - her conception, her birth, her childhood, her youth in the Temple, the events recorded in the Biblical gospels and her Dormition; the poems and stories are generally more concerned with her modern-day miracles._

Portamento had mentioned that he was working on a guide to medieval music that he would hopefully share with us but I haven't seen him around lately; I hope he will pop into this thread sometime and provide some of his insights.


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## Simplicissimus

^ Fascinating subject! However, I'm coming up empty wrt streaming or Youtube recordings of _Les Miracles de Nostre Dame_. I do find some other work by de Coincy performed by Philip Picket and the New London Consort. What to do...


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## Allegro Con Brio

Found it!






On Primephonic (my streaming service) one version shows up from Andrew Lawrence-King and the Harp Consort on Harmonia Mundi.


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## Simplicissimus

Allegro Con Brio said:


> Found it!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On Primephonic (my streaming service) one version shows up from Andrew Lawrence-King and the Harp Consort on Harmonia Mundi.


I can't get that on my service, but they were selling the Andrew Lawrence-King CD on Amazon. Now unavailable. It got five five-star reviews. Lawrence-King, whose work I've not yet sampled, seems to be a major talent.


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## Mandryka

There's only one performance of one one song that comes to mind as being my sort of music, otherwise when I think of Gauthier de Coincy in performance I think of childish jaunty rhythms, annoying rigid pulse, boring instrumental sections and banal harmonies. The track is by Brigitte Lesne here






Brief comparison with other versions of the same song is interesting, because it reveals what an outlier Lesne is. Other versions are terrible, I mean really terrible. The worst being Pickett!


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## RICK RIEKERT

Ensemble Alegria has given _Les Miracles_ a go:


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## Art Rock

_Gautier de Coincy
_
Listening to the YouTube provided by Allegro con Brio. Nice combination of voice and instruments. Don't have time to listen further right now, but the first six minutes got me interested. Will try to slot in the complete work later this week.


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## Allegro Con Brio

This is interesting. Very interesting. I generally don’t like instrumental accompaniment in early music, but I think it works OK here. The purely instrumental movements sound like something modern film composers would write to accompany stereotypical medieval scenes from old England. The rhythms of the vocal movements keep me engaged, but I guess the lack of true polyphonic richness in music this early can sometimes bore me - not, of course, the fault of the composer since only the most rudimentary polyphony was used at the time. Like the Chant of the Templars, I find my attention waning as it just sounds unnecessarily repetitive and extended and the melodies formulaic. But it’s great music to know and hear.


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## Jacck

I quite like it and prefer the Ensemble Alegria version. 
*" in which he set poems in praise of the Virgin Mary to popular melodies and songs of his day"*
yes, the music does not sound to be religous. It is more like medieval pop music, is less serious, more playful.


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## Allegro Con Brio

^Yup. Repetitive, formulaic, catchy...but it really is kind of fun! I can easily imagine a bunch of minstrels walking down streets, strumming their lutes, singing joyfully along to these songs, even though they probably wouldn’t be singing music with these types of themes.


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## Mandryka

Jacck said:


> *" in which he set poems in praise of the Virgin Mary to popular melodies and songs of his day"*


Preexisting troubadour songs, maybe « secular » would be a better word than « popular » - with its connotations of popularity.



Jacck said:


> yes, the music does not sound to be religous.


To me some of it, in Pickett for example, sounds like some teenage Christian scouts and guides singing on a camp holiday. It also remindeded me of a French song from the movie « Les bronzés font du ski » called _Darladirladada_, it's probably on YouTube.



Jacck said:


> . It is more like medieval pop music, is less serious, more playful.


I wonder how much of that is interpretation and how much is something which reflects the constraints in the score and what we understand about how it was performed in the day.

There's something to know about the reception history of early music. In the 1960s an academic bunch of musicians calling themselves Gothic Voices made a recording of music by Hildegard for the label Hyperion. Amazingly, to everyone's surprise, it became a real hit: taxi drivers were singing along to it on the radio, that sort of thing. And when the record labels grocked that there was a popular market for medieval music, they pumped money into making recordings. The result was that people tried to make their recordings as catchy and as foot tappingly regular as po$$ible, to make it $afe and ea$y to hear.

That being said, I have no idea whether this is something relevant to Ensemble Alegria. And I've never seen the sources for Gauthier De Coincy.


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## Simplicissimus

I don’t know if anyone else hears de Coincy this way, but it seems to me like a bridge between religious polyphonic vocal music that has little rhythm, and the really toe-tapping and rhythmically robust Renaissance instrumental music of Praetorius et al., via use of existing troubadour repertoire. I’ve been finding it interesting but not for more than about ten minutes at a time. As others have commented, it doesn’t have much variety. I’m very happy to have experienced it as I’d never heard of de Coincy before.


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## Art Rock

Simplicissimus said:


> I've been finding it interesting but not for more than about ten minutes at a time. As others have commented, it doesn't have much variety.


Agreed. I tried to listen to the whole piece earlier today, but the initial enthusiasm decreased until I shut it down after 15 minutes.


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## premont

Without wanting to discuss the recordings too much, I find most of them tiring to listen to. This is not music to listen to but "Gebrauchsmusik". The only one I can listen to till the end is the Alla Francesca recording, which is rather refined with instruments improvising around the monodic songs. But even this begins at some point to make me yawn.


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## aioriacont

Byrd's John Passion is just....a.....bleeping.....prayer! No music at all. He is a genius, but what the bleep happened here?


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## caracalla

This past week I've listened to four discs devoted to Coincy (Alla Francesca's, Pickett's, Lawence-King's and Ensemble Alegria's), as well as various other bits and pieces. 

There were only two tracks I want to hear again. Alla Francesca's 'Entendez tuit ensemble' outstays its welcome slightly, but is otherwise thoroughly agreeable and to my ears sounds convincing. The other is the short instrumental number 'Efforcier m'estuet ma voiz', as rendered by LK & Co. In both cases, I can believe that 13thC music might possibly have sounded something like this. More importantly, I can listen to these pieces with enjoyment in the year 2020.

Two tracks is a meagre enough haul. However, a hit rate of that order is pretty much what I've come to expect when listening to secular (and quasi-secular) music of this period. The critics invariably go into raptures (I notice that Pickett's effort, of all things, has managed to bag a Penguin Guide rosette), but I'm far from persuaded that any of the current practitioners have hit on a successful formula for presenting this music.

What are we actually listening to anyway? Mandryka suggested comparing recorded versions of 'Entendez tuit ensemble'. It's well worth doing, because that piece has a lot of them, and they reveal just how chaotic current performance practice is. Obviously, only one - at best - of these wildly varied approaches can be right, or even on the right track, in terms of recreating what this music originally sounded like. More likely, none of them is. My point is that there's no need to pay undue respect on historical grounds to music that is (and must be) so largely a speculative modern fabrication. Those of us who react badly to what's currently on offer can hope that some new outfit will eventually turn up to transform the situation. It's happened before in other areas of the mediaeval repertory.


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## Mandryka

aioriacont said:


> Byrd's John Passion is just....a.....bleeping.....prayer! No music at all. He is a genius, but what the bleep happened here?


Here are the notes on it from Andrew Carwood's recording



> The most significant amount of this recording is taken up with the setting of the passion narrative according to St John designed for performance on Good Friday afternoon. Here there is no doubt. The sentences grouped as Turbarum voces make no sense on their own, being the responses of the crowd as the Passion story unfolds. Gospels, of course, are always chanted during solemn Mass and although Good Friday does not have a Mass (to underline the complete desolation and misery of the day) it does have a Gospel. When the idea of more than one singer being involved in performance became common is unsure but certainly by the fifteenth century there are three distinct roles - Chronista, who narrates the Passion (using a middle voice), Christus, singing all of the words of Jesus (in a lower voice) and Synagoga, or people, who sang not only the words of Pilate and Peter but also those of the crowd (in the highest voice). There is a tradition of setting the Passion in England, and one by Richard Davy survives as early as from the late 15th century (an anonymous four-part version is also copied into the mid 16th-century Gyffard partbooks). Byrd's setting is closer to that of Tomas Luis da Victoria published in his Officium Hebdomadae Sanctae of 1585 and famous throughout the Continent at this time. In the Gyffard version all of the synagoga parts are set to polyphony whereas Byrd, like Victoria, sets only the words of the crowd or turba. The plainchant is here taken from Cantos ecclesiasticus passionis domini nostri Jesu Christi ... (Rome, apud Alexandrum Gardanum, 1586) which is printed in The Byrd Edition (Stainer & Bell), vol. 6b, edited by Philip Brett.


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## mmsbls

I'd never heard of de Coincy. I had a similar reaction to many others in that the music sounded formulaic and repetitive. I listened to the Alla Francesca version. There is a song starting a bit before the 6' mark without instruments. I found that by far my favorite. I have not listened to much music from before roughly 1300 so I don't have much of a sense of what is out there and how much variation there is.


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## Mandryka

caracalla said:


> The other is the short instrumental number 'Efforcier m'estuet ma voiz', as rendered by LK & Co. In both cases,.


The Harp Consort one is not my sort of music, but this is more like it


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## Mandryka

mmsbls said:


> I'd never heard of de Coincy. I had a similar reaction to many others in that the music sounded formulaic and repetitive. I listened to the Alla Francesca version. There is a song starting a bit before the 6' mark without instruments. I found that by far my favorite. .


That's called _Entendez tuit ensemble_. My favourite too!


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## Kjetil Heggelund

My first encounter with Gautier de Coincy is the opus 111 recording. I think I read someone here didn't find the music to sound religious and I agree. Maybe it's the female voices? To me it sounds more lighthearted than the (often heavy) monks singing. I thought religion in the middle ages was god-fearing and pretty superstitious  I haven't heard too much music from this time, but it seems a bit different from the few pieces I've heard. Now there's even a man singing...By the way, I don't trust the authenticity of the instruments presented...
I imagine that the music here is more from a tradition of vernacular music than from religious practice. How do they know what to play?
The opus 111 album is from 1995 with these guys:
Emmanuel Bonnardot (voice, fiddle, rebec, jingles), Pierre Hamon (flute, bagpipes, double pipe, bamboo flute, three-holed flute, six-holed flute, frame drum, voice), Brigitte Lesne (voice, harp, hurdy-gurdy, small cymbals, frame drum), Catherine Sergent (voice)

I've heard half the recording. Maybe I'm longing for something that sounds from a different age and don't quite feel it here. The recording is great and I can't complain. Maybe it's just too pretty?


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## Allegro Con Brio

07/05-07/12: Featured Composer - Giovanni Pierluigi da Palestrina (1525-1594)

_Nominated Works: Missa Papae Marcelli [submitted by mmsbls] and Missa Aeterna Christi Munera [submitted by sbmonty]_

I'd assume most of us have heard Missa Papae Marcelli at least once, as it is possibly _the_ most popular pre-1600 work. But there's a lot more to Palestrina as I've discovered, and I find his music incredibly beautiful and ethereal. Never heard the Missa Aeterna Christi Munera, and I'm looking forward to exploring it.

Here is a great essay about the Missa Papae Marcelli, including an exploration of the infamous "myth" behind it. Also, Trout's list is a good guide for recordings:

1. Phillips (cond.), Tallis Scholars (1980)
2. Phillips (cond.), Tallis Scholars (1994, live in Rome)
3. Summerly (cond.), Oxford Camerata (1994)
4. Hill (cond.), Westminster Cathedral Choir (1987)
5. Preston (cond.), Westminster Abbey Choir (1986)
6. Turner (cond.), Pro Cantione Antiqua (1978)
7. Christophers (cond.), The Sixteen (1990)
8. Keene (cond.), Voices of Ascension (1996)
9. Da Col (cond.), Odhecaton (2010)


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## Mandryka

Mandryka said:


> The Harp Consort one is not my sort of music, but this is more like it


On second thoughts maybe not  This Coincy man is very disappointing!


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## caracalla

Mandryka said:


> On second thoughts maybe not  This Coincy man is very disappointing!


It's listenable enough, but to me it sounds like modern new-agey stuff (not that I'm knocking it for that; I find some new age music appealing). If I heard it out of the blue, I don't think it would occur to me to associate it with the Middle Ages. I could only guess at the derivation - traditional French, probably, but not that old.

As for Coincy, I'll give him the benefit of the doubt. For years I blamed Machaut for Alfred Deller and don't want to make that mistake again. He may yet scrub up well enough.


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## vincula

This is a real gem.









Rejoice :angel:!

Regards,

Vincula


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## Mandryka

For Missa Pappae Marcelli, this is one I like , because I like the way the voices harmonise.


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## Simplicissimus

Palestrina: As popular as it is, I have to admit to being unfamiliar with the _Missa Papae Marcelli_. Therefore, I will concentrate on it and listen to three or four versions. On my streaming service I find the Oxford Camerata, Pro Cantione Antiqua, Choir of Westminster Abbey, and a few others. I'll start with these first three. These past few pieces we've examined have certainly showed me that interpretations can be very different, and that I get essential insight into the music by experiencing various versions.


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## Allegro Con Brio

Any luck with finding recordings of _Missa Aeterna Christi Munera?_ Only one complete version shows up on my service (Primephonic), a poorly recorded one from Ildebrando Mura and a very lengthily-named Italian ensemble on the Tactus label. Here's a much better one from Oxford Camerata:






And a great write-up from AllMusic:

_This late mass presents Palestrina at the height of his creative powers. Scored for four voices, with the usual addition of an extra voice (in this case a second tenor) for the final movement, this brief, concise mass is characterized throughout by the simplicity and clarity of the vocal writing, as well as the fluency and charm of its melodic lines. The purity, delicacy, and balance of the part-writing have been likened to that of a string quartet.

Aeterna Christi munera is of the "paraphrase" type, meaning that a short phrase of plainsong (such as a hymn or an antiphon from the Catholic liturgy) provides the melodic basis on which the work is constructed. Motifs) are extracted from this melody and used as points of imitation throughout the mass. Moreover, the structure of the hymn verse (ABCA) is reflected in the structure of individual mass movements as well. The shorter movements (Kyrie, Sanctus, Benedictus, Agnus Dei) use imitation, where a melodic fragment is repeated by all the voices in succession, to develop the motifs borrowed from the paraphrased hymn-tune into a complex, florid counterpoint. A simpler homophonic texture prevails in the longer movements (Gloria, Credo), as was typical of Palestrina's late works.

Palestrina also distances himself from his Franco-Flemish predecessors by his suave, flowing melodies, which contrast sharply with the more angular melodic contours favored by earlier composers. As well, the mass shows unending melodic inventiveness: themes are transformed and renewed from one movement to the next, providing the work with a sense of unity imbued with freshness. Palestrina makes good use of the sense of architectural balance acquired from the earlier composer Josquin, using repetition and reprise to structure the movements, for example, structuring the tripartite Kyrie with cadences in F, C, and F again. The mass contains a few examples of the technique of word-painting. Particularly striking are his use of the low register to represent death at the words "Crucifixus" and "vivos et mortuos," while a dance-like triple rhythm animates the "Et spiritum"; more subtly, Palestrina expands the second motif of the hymn-tune into a very expressive melody which recurs with every allusion to the Saviour._


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## caracalla

Allegro Con Brio said:


> Any luck with finding recordings of _Missa Aeterna Christi Munera?_


As far as I can tell without searching a dozen different ways, Spotify offers: Oxford Camerata (Summerly), Ildebrando Mura, Pro Cantione Antiqua (Brown) and Schola Cantorum Budapestiensis.

All these can also be found on YT. One which can't is Westminster Cathedral Choir (O'Donnell), though this is available for sampling and purchase as a CD or download. People should beware of a YT post purporting to be this, or at least using its cover art, which is actually PCA. It uses counter-tenors for the top line, whereas WCC has trebles, as might be expected.

I think the only version coupling these two masses is Summerly's, so I presume that's what sbmonty had in mind.


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## Mandryka

Re Aeterna Christi Mudera, there's an interesting document on this recording and there's one by the great James O'Donnell as noted above (which I haven't heard yet)


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## Allegro Con Brio

Surprised Palestrina hasn’t generated more discussion this week. Would anyone care to elaborate more on the famous “myth” behind Missa Papae Marcelli, that he saved the course of Western music from the banning of polyphony from the church? I’ve read up on a bit, but would be curious to hear what those who are more knowledgeable than I think about it. I’ll spent tomorrow doing some more listening, I’ve slacked off a bit this week.


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## Mandryka

Allegro Con Brio said:


> Surprised Palestrina hasn't generated more discussion this week..


The music is nice and sweet, there are tunes.


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## Allegro Con Brio

Mandryka said:


> The music is nice and sweet, there are tunes.


The Tallis Scholars in their famous 1980 recording certainly perform it in a "nice and sweet" way, but I wonder if there are other ways that it can go. I can almost find that recording soporific, even though it is meditative in a certain way.


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## Mandryka

Allegro Con Brio said:


> The Tallis Scholars in their famous 1980 recording certainly perform it in a "nice and sweet" way, but I wonder if there are other ways that it can go. I can almost find that recording soporific, even though it is meditative in a certain way.


New York Polyphony.

Peter Philips's recording is transposed up, its sound is very homogeneous, he often gets them to sing two on a part, he does not use _musica ficta_ at all as far as I can hear, so everything is very consonant, and he sees it almost as a piece for soprano, the other voices playing a secondary role. He did have an amazing soprano singer at the time though, Tessa Bonner. But it's not good enough. New York Polyphony is the one for me.


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## Art Rock

I'm skipping this week because of other listening targets. Anyway, I have the Naxos CD with these two works, and I recall them as good to listen to, but not outstanding.


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## RICK RIEKERT

For those of us who want to hear a fuller sound in Palestrina without preciosity or undue loss of clarity there is the uplifting performance by the legendary Regensburger Domspatzen, aka the "singing sparrows", directed by Roland Büchner. The Regensburg cathedral choir was founded in the year 975 and as you will hear is still going strong. The entire performance of _Missa Papae Marcelli_ is available on YouTube.


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## Allegro Con Brio

I think Missa Aeterna is the work I like best out of these two, but I can't exactly tell you why. Early music is a tough thing to describe in words, as I've found out! I think it's fair to say that Palestrina is my favorite early music composer I've explored so far; there is such an unpretentiousness about the music that contributes to its ethereality. However, my favorite Palestrina composition I'm familiar with is _Canticum Canticōrum_, a setting of the biblical Song of Songs. It's incredibly sensuous!


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## caracalla

I've often wondered why _Missa Papae Marcelli_ gets recorded so frequently, while more interesting masses by Palestrina receive far less attention. I could understand if it were hyped as 'the piece that saved Western music', but no one is actually that shameless. I can only presume it's because MPM is very widely taught in courses on Renaissance polyphony, so a reasonable base level of sales is usually anticipated from academia.

Be that as it may, it's always struck me as one of Palestrina's middling efforts. Quite a lot of his stuff sounds very beautiful on first listen, if you're in the mood, but also tends towards blandness and forgettability. I find this applies particularly to the text-heavy movements (Gloria and Credo), where the clarity issue was most acute. This is when you're supposed to be paying close attention to the words, and the accompanying music is not supposed to be either obscuring them or distracting you. In the text-light movements, post-Trent composers were much freer to concentrate on their other task, which was to put (or maintain) worshippers in a suitably numinous frame of mind for religious observance - ie, to stimulate a particular set of emotional responses. I don't know how all this pans out for true believers, but for a gate-crasher like me (ie, someone who is at this party for the music, not the religion) it follows that the Kyrie, Sanctus-Benedictus and Agnus Dei are usually the most effective and appealing sections of the mass in this period.

That applies here, I think, and especially to the Agnus Dei. The second part comes reasonably close to top Palestrina in my book, but only if it's done right (ie, by the much-maligned Tallis Scholars, vintage 1980). I'd say the Agnus is also the highlight of _Aeterna Christi munera_, a fairly routine production much appreciated by modern choirs as easy to sing. There's nothing wrong with it, but pace AllMusic, I can't agree this is anywhere near Palestrina at his most compelling.

Never mind, there's now a ton of Palestrina on record, and in a wide range of performance flavours to suit every palate. People who respond well to P, but also find he starts to pall quite quickly, are best advised to explore his motets and other shorter pieces. These exist in abundance, and often reveal a more versatile composer than might come across from the masses alone. As for the latter, there's no disgrace in cherry-picking. Mass settings for liturgical use were not designed as continuous concert pieces, and no one should feel duty-bound to listen to them like that.


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## Mandryka

caracalla said:


> more interesting masses by Palestrina receive far less attention.


Which ones?

qdqaiolwjfwaolfcn


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## Mandryka

RICK RIEKERT said:


> For those of us who want to hear a fuller sound in Palestrina without preciosity or undue loss of clarity there is the uplifting performance by the legendary Regensburger Domspatzen, aka the "singing sparrows", directed by Roland Büchner. The Regensburg cathedral choir was founded in the year 975 and as you will hear is still going strong. The entire performance of _Missa Papae Marcelli_ is available on YouTube.


Thanks but no thanks, it's not for me. Personally I'd be more interested in some more very small scale vibrato free men only recordings of Palestrina masses.


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## Simplicissimus

I've listened to recordings of the _Missa Papae Marcelli_ by the Tallis Scholars, Oxford Camerata, Regensburger Domspatzen, Choir of Westminster Abbey, and Pro Cantione Antiqua. I did not perceive great differences among these versions, maybe because the work is so well documented and studied compared to some of the other early music we've examined.

Having read about Palestrina and this work in particular, I heard for myself how intelligible the sung words are in this polyphony compared to the more imitative and complex varieties. I can understand how some listeners find it comparatively bland, but I think it is ingenious and engaging. I think the Miserere in particular is justly famous. My favorite performance of this, and of the work as a whole, is the Choir of Westminster Abbey. One might criticize it as too "nice," but I don't consider the work to be so profound as to rule out simple niceness. That said, I also admire the more muscular and male-voice dominated performance of the Pro Cantione Antiqua.

Palestrina, and this Mass as his most famous, represented a lacuna in my early music knowledge. I feel like I know and understand it pretty well now, and I imagine I'll come back to it from time to time.


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## Knorf

I think the _Missa Papae Marcelli_ is justified in its fame as well. It's marvelous in its clarity and sense of proportion, and considerably more complex than one realizes until you study it in depth.


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## Allegro Con Brio

*July 12-July 19: Featured Composer - Orlande de Lassus (1532-1594)*

_Nominated Work: Lagrime di San Pietro [submitted by: Kjetil Heggelund]_

This is our first encounter in this group with the madrigal genre, which I am completely and totally unfamiliar with. According to Wiki:

_The Lagrime sets 20 poems by the Italian poet Luigi Tansillo (1510-1568) depicting the stages of grief experienced by St. Peter after his denial of Christ, and his memory of Christ's admonition (Matthew 26:69-75). The settings by Lassus are for seven voices, and numerical symbolism plays a part throughout: the seven voices represent the seven sorrows of the Virgin Mary; in addition many of the madrigals are in seven sections. The total number of pieces in the set, 21, represents seven times the number of members of the trinity._


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## caracalla

Mandryka said:


> Which ones?


Among the better known, I would say Assumpta est Maria and Tu es Petrus for a start. Also quite a few relative obscurities, such as Te Deum laudamus, O magnum mysterium and Fratres ego - in all, there's nearly a dozen I find more engaging than MPM. That number could grow, as plenty of these masses still haven't been recorded at all.

The Palestrina album I'd be most unwilling to part with is 'Veni Sponsa Christi' by George Guest and St John's College, Cambridge. It's quite long in the tooth now, but aside from the mass of the title (which I'd also take over MPM), nearly all the motets, canticles &c which accompany it are winners. I'm hopelessly biased, as this is the disc which got me interested in EM, but I do wish Guest had recorded a lot more Palestrina than he did.


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## Mandryka

caracalla said:


> Among the better known, I would say Assumpta est Maria and Tu es Petrus for a start. Also quite a few relative obscurities, such as Te Deum laudamus, O magnum mysterium and Fratres ego - in all, there's nearly a dozen I find more engaging than MPM. That number could grow, as plenty of these masses still haven't been recorded at all.
> 
> The Palestrina album I'd be most unwilling to part with is 'Veni Sponsa Christi' by George Guest and St John's College, Cambridge. It's quite long in the tooth now, but aside from the mass of the title (which I'd also take over MPM), nearly all the motets, canticles &c which accompany it are winners. I'm hopelessly biased, as this is the disc which got me interested in EM, but I do wish Guest had recorded a lot more Palestrina than he did.


Thanks, I found a recording of M. Assumpta est Maria by Herreweghe which I've started to explore. I have to say that so far I'm more of a Lassus person than a Palestrina person. And I notice that Orlande de Lassus / Roland de Lassus / Orlando di Lasso / Orlandus Lassus /Orlande de Lattre/ Roland de Lattre, the man with more names than anyone else in music, is on the menu for next week!


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## Mandryka

Allegro Con Brio said:


> *July 12-July 19: Featured Composer - Orlande de Lassus (1532-1594)*
> 
> _Nominated Work: Lagrime di San Pietro [submitted by: Kjetil Heggelund]_
> 
> This is our first encounter in this group with the madrigal genre, which I am completely and totally unfamiliar with. According to Wiki:
> 
> _The Lagrime sets 20 poems by the Italian poet Luigi Tansillo (1510-1568) depicting the stages of grief experienced by St. Peter after his denial of Christ, and his memory of Christ's admonition (Matthew 26:69-75). The settings by Lassus are for seven voices, and numerical symbolism plays a part throughout: the seven voices represent the seven sorrows of the Virgin Mary; in addition many of the madrigals are in seven sections. The total number of pieces in the set, 21, represents seven times the number of members of the trinity._


I saw this about eighteen months ago in a production with dance by Peter Sellars, I thought it was fabulous, both the staging and the music. Here's the man himself introducing it.


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## caracalla

Mandryka said:


> I saw this about eighteen months ago in a production with dance by Peter Sellars, I thought it was fabulous, both the staging and the music. Here's the man himself introducing it.


For a moment I thought you meant Peter Sellers! Goodness me, though, this Sellars guy knows how to talk about music to non-specialists. Maybe a bit histrionic in places, but that's easily forgiven - a wonderful introduction to this week's offering.

Somebody should hire him to do the musical equivalent of Kenneth Clark's _Civilisation_ series.


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## Simplicissimus

Not finding the _Lagrime di San Pietro_ on my service, but there's at least one YT live performance:


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## Mandryka

caracalla said:


> Somebody should hire him to do the musical equivalent of Kenneth Clark's _Civilisation_ series.


He's clearly a very musical person. For example, that comment at the start about Ligeti's polyphony is informed. I've seen quite a few of his things and, whether you like the productions or not I think one thing is undeniable: he inspires his performers to really give of their best.


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## Mandryka

Simplicissimus said:


> Not finding the _Lagrime di San Pietro_ on my service, but there's at least one YT live performance:


Sound isn't so good, this may be more enjoyable






and here's the text and translation

https://www.naxosmusiclibrary.com/sharedfiles/booklets/NEC/booklet-8.553311.pdf


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## Allegro Con Brio

I’m liking what I’m hearing so far. Perhaps more harmonically interesting and less “soothing” than Palestrina. The singing on the Herreweghe/Ensemble Vocal European recording is ravishing, even though I’m sure it’s “prettified” as is often a complaint directed towards Herreweghe. 

Simplicissimus, which streaming service do you use? Primephonic comes up with 7 recordings of the complete work.


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## Simplicissimus

Allegro Con Brio said:


> I'm liking what I'm hearing so far. Perhaps more harmonically interesting and less "soothing" than Palestrina. The singing on the Herreweghe/Ensemble Vocal European recording is ravishing, even though I'm sure it's "prettified" as is often a complaint directed towards Herreweghe.
> 
> Simplicissimus, which streaming service do you use? Primephonic comes up with 7 recordings of the complete work.


I use Amazon Music HD. Primephonic seems great! So, is this a vocal work for seven voices (SSAATTB) with optional instruments? I'm wondering how people feel about adding instruments to this kind of music. I'm reading that it was quite a common practice in the 1500s. To me, it makes the music sound more Renaissance and less Medieval, but that's probably just me.


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## Mandryka

Simplicissimus said:


> . To me, it makes the music sound more Renaissance and less Medieval, but that's probably just me.


This is late renaissance music.



Simplicissimus said:


> So, is this a vocal work for seven voices (SSAATTB) with optional instruments?


I think it's for voices. Paul Van Nevel and Livio Picotti have both tried using some instruments in the music, see what you think of the results.


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## caracalla

This isn't a genre I'm familiar with - most of the madrigals I know and enjoy are secular and usually a bit later (Monteverdi et al). I have to say I found the Lagrime pretty hard-going at first, which didn't altogether surprise me - guilt-ridden yearning for death really isn't my thing. OK, granted, there's an awful of vocal music which would be in trouble if art couldn't override the subject matter. Unfortunately, I didn't find that it did in this case until I switched from a capella renditions to Picotti's Capella Ducale Venetia. Here they're quite beautifully done, I think, and although as yet I've listened only once all though, they've convinced me that these are pieces I need to get to know better. The instrumental accompaniment is quite subtle, never overwhelms or distracts from the vocal lines. Less so is that with Van Nevel and the Huelgas Ensemble, where the sound is at times very opulent, almost Venetian. This isn't offered on Spotify - I've only lately found them on YouTube and have yet to make up my mind about their approach.


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## Knorf

Roland di Lassus's _Lagrime di San Pietro_ was going to be my own suggestion until I had noticed someone else had already mentioned it! It's an extraordinary composition, not easy listening by any means, and its texts are difficult, but in its expansive concept fairly invites comparison to Bach's _Die Kunst der Fuge_ or _Das Musikalische Opfer_.

Musically speaking, it's a _tour de force_ of the highest achievement in modal counterpoint. Seven voice parts, all independent, all expressive and of high melodic interest in themselves, the parts are often in strict imitation and in every traditional church mode except for VIII, hypomixolydian. Note, don't expect to hear the character of the modes the way we think of tonal keys. Contrapuntal modal compositions wander all over the place, without the sense of key hierarchy or harmonic progression we associate with tonality. However, the richness and variety of the counterpoint are plain to anyone.

The texts by Tansillo, as noted, are brutal: basically Peter flagellating himself over and over for his failures at being a friend, follower, and apostle of Christ. The texts are mainly focused in the famous Biblical story of Peter's denial of Christ during the trial.



Luigi Tansillo said:


> The eyes of the Lord were like
> a quick tongue, and Peter's eyes
> like ears yearning to hear his voice.
> "Prouder," he seemed to say, "are your eyes
> than the godless hands that will crucify me;
> nor have I felt a blow that struck me as hard,
> among the many that did strike me,
> as the one that came out of your mouth.
> 
> I found none faithful, no friend
> among the many that I chose to be called mine:
> but you, for whom my love was so intense,
> are more deceitful and ungrateful than any.
> Each of them hurt me by leaving me:
> but you denied me, and now you stand
> there with that godless bunch enjoying my pain,
> and seem to share in their delight."


_Brutal_.

It's well-known that Lassus worked on this music in the last years of his life, and died merely weeks after writing it. Why? What was our dear Orlando on about? This stanza has a clue:



> To how many, happy in their youth,
> did waiting for you bring terrible torments?
> If they had been allowed to die once old age
> caught up with them, they'd have been happy,
> because there is no mortal state that brings
> perennial happiness, nor endless torment.
> Thence, life, I am right to be pained by you,
> for you stay with me when I no longer want you!


Lassus through Tansillo, reflecting on his life with regret and painful memory, knowing his end was near; in a word, it's about catharsis.


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## Mandryka

Here's the BBC Building a Library programme about it

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/p04lrgx7


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## Allegro Con Brio

I still need to listen more to the Lassus and contribute some more of my thoughts, but for now let's get the next week's composer up...

*July 19-July 26: FEATURED COMPOSER - Hildegard of Bingen (1098-1179)*

_Nominated Works: Various hymns and sequences, including "O Euchari in leta via" [submitted by: Shosty]_

My educated guess is that Shosty was referring to this Summerly album which begins with "O Euchari."


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## caracalla

I hadn't realised they'd reviewed Lagrime on 'Building a Library' - always worth listening to, but music of this vintage is seldom on their radar. No great surprise they plumped for Gallicantus. I was hoping to hear their take on Van Nevel (presumably negative), but despite their claims to comprehensiveness this never got a mention - too old, or just OP at the time?


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## Shosty

Sorry I haven't been active here, I've had a very hectic month (or two). Anyway, Hildegard of Bingen (also known as Saint Hildegard) was a benedictine abbess and all around polymath who composed a good deal of mostly religious music. The recording ACB mentioned was exactly what I had in mind, and other than the (in my opinion) sublime O Euchari, all the other works are very worth listening to as well. And if you're interested, Hildegard's liturgical drama Ordo Virtutum is wonderful too (Wiki notes it as probably the oldest surviving morality play).

A little bit about her from Encyclopedia Britannica:


> A talented poet and composer, Hildegard collected 77 of her lyric poems, each with a musical setting composed by her, in Symphonia armonie celestium revelationum. Her numerous other writings included lives of saints; two treatises on medicine and natural history, reflecting a quality of scientific observation rare at that period; and extensive correspondence, in which are to be found further prophecies and allegorical treatises. She also for amusement contrived her own language. She traveled widely throughout Germany, evangelizing to large groups of people about her visions and religious insights.











Youtube playlist of the Summerly, Oxford Camerata album here.


Ordo Virtutum:





And finally an early music ensemble called Sequentia recorded her complete works, which was published by Deutsche Harmonia Mundi, and all of which can be found on Idagio and Spotify if you search for "Hildegard sequentia".


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## Art Rock

Shosty said:


> And finally an early music ensemble called Sequentia recorded her complete works, which was published by Deutsche Harmonia Mundi, and all of which can be found on Idagio and Spotify if you search for "Hildegard sequentia".


I have and love that set. I find her music works both for concentrated listening and as background.


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## Shosty

Art Rock said:


> I have and love that set. I find her music works both for concentrated listening and as background.


I'm listening to the Symphoniae album from the set (streaming) right now, and it's wonderful.


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## Simplicissimus

Allegro Con Brio said:


> I still need to listen more to the Lassus and contribute some more of my thoughts, but for now let's get the next week's composer up...
> 
> *July 19-July 26: FEATURED COMPOSER - Hildegard of Bingen (1098-1179)*
> 
> _Nominated Works: Various hymns and sequences, including "O Euchari in leta via" [submitted by: Shosty]_
> 
> My educated guess is that Shosty was referring to this Summerly album which begins with "O Euchari."


I also need to listen to Lassus some more, but I feel like @Knorf nailed the analysis of the work so I am satisfied for the moment. On a superficial level, I have to say I enjoyed _Lagrime di San Pietro_ more with instrumental accompaniment - it sort of took the edge off the emotional brutality - but in both versions I listened to (with and without instruments) I found the SSAATTB arrangement really interesting and engaging.

On to Hildegard von Bingen, who happens to be my daughter's Catholic confirmation name saint.


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## Allegro Con Brio

My final thoughts on the Lagrime: this is really superb, richly composed music. Like I said I wasn’t at all familiar with the madrigal genre so it was nice to be introduced to their function and their potential for expressing deep emotion (really surprisingly modern in expression). Of course there are numerous complexities that I would need to revisit in order to savor, but for now I’m glad to become acquainted with the music and will definitely bookmark it for revisiting.

On to Hildegard! I have always been a great admirer of her beautiful, hauntingly humble melodies. Right off the bat I would like to know whether there are any recordings that mix things up by using male voices instead of just women (the latter is, of course, how they were originally sung in the convent). That would be intriguing to hear.


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## Mandryka

Allegro Con Brio said:


> Right off the bat I would like to know whether there are any recordings that mix things up by using male voices instead of just women (the latter is, of course, how they were originally sung in the convent). That would be intriguing to hear.


Try Oxford Camerata, Gothic Voices, Sequentia, Ensemble Organum


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## Mandryka

Hildegard's music, with its unfeasibly wide ambitus, $ell$, $o there are lot$ of recording$.

There's a tremendously free and inspired rendition of Hildegard's _O ecclesia occuli tui_ on this CD









While we're on Hildegard, let me recommend Jan Garbarek's arrangement of _O Ignis Spiritus_ here









Marie Louise Hinrichs made a recording of her own piano transcriptions of Hildegard music, together with some evocative piano pieces by George Gurdjieff on this CD - not for me but people who like piano seem to love it for some reason.









Marcel Pérès recorded some chants attributed to Hildegard which for me has really repayed repeated listening. The seriousness of this music is more my cup of tea.









For _Ordo Virtutum,_ I tried to listen to all the available recordings of it about six months ago, and I remember being really impressed by the humble, restrained, sober style of this one - it's a DVD, I haven't seen the images but I have ripped the sound - if anyone wants it they can PM me


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## RICK RIEKERT

The Hildegurls, a quartet of contemporary composers based in New York, created and performed an unconventional electronic-music adaptation of _Ordo Virtutum_. Dividing the work into four acts, each Hildegurl applied her individual sensibility to one of the sections, preserving Hildegard's melodies and the Latin text but reinterpreting the music through modern ears -- and with modern technology. Although the women are singers and instrumentalists who perform _Ordo Virtutum_, trading roles as they go, the aural backdrop to the 75-minute piece is mostly their own computer-generated soundtracks using a combination of recorded samples and both electric and acoustic instruments.

The Hildegurls were skeptical of the authenticity of the approach to recreating this music by groups such as Sequentia, which liberated them to approach the same material in a radically different way.


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## Allegro Con Brio

The Hildegard album I had been previously familiar with is called "The Origin of Fire" by the Anonymous 4 womens' vocal group. It's worth checking out, as the pieces are beautifully sung and it includes some other anonymous pieces from roughly the same period. I've heard great things about the Gothic Voices in this music, but as it's a Hyperion album I was only able to hear these samples provided by the label, which sound excellent:






I do like the music a lot, but let's be honest - there's only so long you can listen to single, homophonic lines without letting your mind wander.


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## Portamento

Sorry for disappearing off the face of the earth for a bit! I'll try to catch up as much as I can for the various listening threads in the next few weeks.



Allegro Con Brio said:


> I've heard great things about the Gothic Voices in this music, but as it's a Hyperion album I was only able to hear these samples provided by the label, which sound excellent:


This album is a verifiable classic. Released in 1982, it has been hugely influential and basically transformed Hildegard into the cult figure she is today. Highly recommended.


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## caracalla

People who want to hear a complete track by Kirkby/Gothic Voices can do a Google search on 'listentothis hildegard kirkby'. This will bring up a link to her rendition of 'Columba aspexit'.


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## Portamento

caracalla said:


> People who want to hear a complete track by Kirkby/Gothic Voices can do a Google search on 'listentothis hildegard kirkby'. This will bring up a link to her rendition of 'Columba aspexit'.


You can also PM me. 

Shh...


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## Jacck

tbh, I find Hildegarde somewhat boring to listen to. It is interesting for about 10 minutes, but then I lose interest, because it is very monotonous.


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## caracalla

Jacck said:


> It is interesting for about 10 minutes, but then I lose interest, because it is very monotonous.


I sympathise, but then very few of her pieces exceed 10 minutes, and most are considerably shorter than that. We tend to listen to a succession of them back-to-back because that's the way the music is usually packaged on disc, but it's an artificial construct and none of Hildegard's doing.

I think this applies to rather a lot of EM. We subject it to strains it was not designed to withstand.


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## Mandryka

Jacck said:


> tbh, I find Hildegarde somewhat boring to listen to. It is interesting for about 10 minutes, but then I lose interest, because it is very monotonous.


Singing repetitive monophonic music is very hard to pull off, especially for an audience which doesn't understand the language being used, an audience which has a limited affinity with the religious significance of the songs. Hildegard became popular partly because of the way the music soars, the wide ambitus - it give it a familiar virtuoso quality, like coloratura singing in bel canto.


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## Allegro Con Brio

Since Highwayman's two nominations are both from the 14th century Chantilly Codex and both have "smoke" in their title, I've decided to combine them into one week...

*July 26-August 2: FEATURED COMPOSERS - Johannes Symonis Hasprois (died 1428) and Solage (late 14th century)*

Nominated Works: Hasprois - Puisque je suis Fumeux and Solage - Fumeux Fume par Fumée (both from Chantilly Codex)

Here are YouTube performances of these two short compositions:











Both these works are from the *Chantilly Codex*, a collection of French secular songs dating from approximately 1350-1400 in the _ars subtilior_ ("subtle art") style; you can read the Wiki for more information on this style. I am not at all familiar with early secular music, so this will be interesting! Not vouching for the accuracy of this, but the description on the YouTube of the Hasprois says this:

_An example of French Ars Subtilior composition, from ~1400AD in the Avignon region. Notice how the song sounds almost like jazz. It is part of the Chantilly Codex, which contains many interesting and beautiful compositions from the era. The title translates to "Since I am smokey," I think. Because tobacco had not yet been introduced to Europe, it is believed that the topic of this, and other ars subtilior compositions, was smoking hashish or opium._

 No one could possibly make the accusation that this medieval music is stuffy and elitist! What a quirky discovery; thanks to Highwayman for submitting these works on this most unusual theme.


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## Allegro Con Brio

Woah! Listening to the Hasprois. I don’t think this is like anything in the Western classical tradition that I’ve ever heard. It really does sound like jazz!


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## Knorf

Allegro Con Brio said:


> Woah! Listening to the Hasprois. I don't think this is like anything in the Western classical tradition that I've ever heard. It really does sound like jazz!


In no way is this an exaggeration!


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## Allegro Con Brio

I think this crazy music deserves some discussion! Not to keep pushing (at this point I’m fine if the listening schedule just serves as a guide for our own exploration and minimal discussion ensues), but I’d be curious to hear some thoughts on this stuff. I would play the first 30 seconds of the Hasprois to anyone and dare them to guess that it’s not a jazz saxophone improvisation. The Solage perhaps sounds more “conventional” in comparison but still fascinating to hear. The use of hocket (if I’m not mistaken?) rhythms gives it a real swing. Medieval stoner songs are fun


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## Art Rock

Both new names for me. The first part of the Hasprois is extraordinary indeed. I'm not crazy about the sung part though, but it;s short enough not to get bothered by it. A very interesting suggestion. I'll try to listen to the Solage later today.


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## Mandryka

_Puisque je suis fumeux_ probably means "Because I'm moody" not "Because I smoke"! That Van Nevel performance is a 20th century aberration, the intro sounds jazzy because it is jazzy, Hasprois must be turning in his grave.

The manuscript shows it's for two, it doesn't show how they relate. Hilliard Ensemble did it with two singers, on a CD they made for The Bodleian called _Sweet Love, Sweet Hope._


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## RICK RIEKERT

Mandryka said:


> _Puisque je suis fumeux_ probably means "Because I'm moody" not "Because I smoke"!


Quite right, old man. In the late middle ages, a person who was _fumeux_ had a number of qualities. He was moody, excitable, garrulous, irascible, vague, a pontificator, melancholy, and immoderate in drinking habits, which exacerbated the other qualities. These meanings are metaphoric, deriving from _fumosus_, meaning 'smokey', but they also have a physiological basis, related to the concept of humours. To have called someone _fumeux_ would have been to imply, among other things, that his bodily vapours, or humours, were out of balance.


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## Simplicissimus

It sounds to me like the instruments in the Hasprois are shawm and viola da gamba, and I think some of the jazziness comes from these instruments. I'm thinking John Coltrane and Charles Mingus! When I imagine the parts played on recorders, it sounds much more conventional. Also, the attacks and jazz-like arpeggios by the shawm make it sound jazzy. I'm not sure how authentic the performance practice is, but I sure do like it!

The Solage, too, would be very performable on recorders and crumhorns. If I imagine it that way, it sounds to me like a precursor of Praetorius's _Terpsichore_, especially rhythmically. It's very fine sung; I love this performance.


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## premont

Simplicissimus said:


> It sounds to me like the instruments in the Hasprois are shawm and viola da gamba, and I think some of the jazziness comes from these instruments. I'm thinking John Coltrane and Charles Mingus! When I imagine the parts played on recorders, it sounds much more conventional. Also, the attacks and jazz-like arpeggios by the shawm make it sound jazzy. I'm not sure how authentic the performance practice is, but I sure do like it!


It has been taken from this CD:

http://www.medieval.org/emfaq/cds/na021.htm

so it's Collver on corno muto (kind of cornetto, zink in German) and Kammen or Cook vielle.


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## Art Rock

Art Rock said:


> I'll try to listen to the Solage later today.


I tried just now, gave up after 30 seconds. Something in the way the voices blend together that I can't handle.


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## premont

Art Rock said:


> I tried just now, gave up after 30 seconds. Something in the way the voices blend together that I can't handle.


What abolut this (from the CD I posted above) with Collver alto, Kammen and Cook vielles.


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## Art Rock

premont said:


> What about this (from the CD I posted above) with Collver alto, Kammen and Cook vielles.


It starts better but after about a minute I get similar problems. Probably just me.


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## Simplicissimus

premont said:


> It has been taken from this CD:
> 
> http://www.medieval.org/emfaq/cds/na021.htm
> 
> so it's Collver on corno mute (kind of cornetto, zink in German) and Kammen or Cook vielle.


Oh, it's a cornetto muto (stiller Zink)! Yes, I'd forgotten about that instrument. Many years ago I tried to play one that our collegium musicum director had procured somewhere. He wanted to get the recorder players to take it up. Although the fingerings were easy for me, I discovered in short order that it's extremely difficult to achieve a good tone if you're not a brass player who's used to embouchure. None of us was, so we couldn't incorporate the thing into the ensemble. I really like it in this piece of music.


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## Mandryka

Those who like a jazzy druggy sound should try this


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## Allegro Con Brio

^Only available for Premium members


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## Allegro Con Brio

August 2 - August 9: FEATURED COMPOSER - John Taverner (1490-1545)

Nominated Work: Western Wynde Mass [submitted by: Simplicissimus]


Two recordings from the Tallis Scholars and the Choir of New College Oxford show up on my streaming. According to Wiki, Taverner blazed new ground by basing his mass off a secular tune with these original lyrics (later composers John Sheppard and Christopher Tye also wrote masses on this theme):

_Westron wynde, when wilt thou blow,
The small raine down can raine.
Cryst, if my love were in my armes
And I in my bedde again!_


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## Mandryka

The Tallis Scholars recording is one of the things I enjoy most from them. He had some fabulous singers - Tessa Bonner, Charles Daniels, Rufus Muller. And he takes a reflective small scale approach which suites me well. Andrew Parrot also made a recording, also worth hearing.


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## Art Rock

Unless someone has a better idea, I'll be listening to this one:


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## RICK RIEKERT

There is a remarkable recording by Paul Hillier's group, Ars Nova Copenhagen. They introduce the Mass with Taverner's gorgeous freestanding piece for 4 voices, _Kyrie Leroy_. The Mass is interspersed by four (non-Christmas) carols from the Fayrfax Manuscript on the subject of Christ's Passion. The group produce a relaxed, stylish, and beautifully blended sound avoiding the dominance of the upper voices.


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## Simplicissimus

Of course I'm excited to start the week of John Taverner's _Western Wynde Mass!_ Thanks to ACB for kicking it off.

I'm working off of two CDs in my collection: The Tallis Scholars (Dir. Peter Phillips) on Gimwll, issued 1995 and recorded 1993 at the Church of Saint Peter and Saint Paul, Salle, Norfolk; and a 2015 recording (released 2016) by Andrew Parrott and the Taverner Choir and Players on the Avie label. (ACB mentioned the former and Mandryka the latter.) I consider these two gems of my early music collection.

The two recordings have interesting differences, which I plan to describe in a later post. For now, I'll just say that the former is based on Peter Phillips's conviction that Taverner intended the Mass to have a dominant tenor part, whereas Parrott's interpretation is not tied to the tenor.

Peter Phillips wrote detailed liner notes for his recording. Besides the significance of the tenor voice, he notes the "vocal spacing" of the composition, referring, I think, to the clarity and transparency of the parts within the polyphony tradition. ACB mentioned the significance of this Mass as being possibly the first to be based on a secular melody. In the Tallis Scholars recording, the melody is demonstrated in the first CD track by a solo tenor voice with the lyrics ACB provided. Interestingly, in the Andrew Parrott recording, the melody is demonstrated by solo recorder.

More anon.


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## Mandryka

RICK RIEKERT said:


> There is a remarkable recording by Paul Hillier's group, Ars Nova Copenhagen. They introduce the Mass with Taverner's gorgeous freestanding piece for 4 voices, _Kyrie Leroy_. The Mass is interspersed by four (non-Christmas) carols from the Fayrfax Manuscript on the subject of Christ's Passion. The group produce a relaxed, stylish, and beautifully blended sound avoiding the dominance of the upper voices.


Am I wrong to think that this was a large scale celebratory mass, written for a big cathedral choir of boys? Like James O'Donnell's recording with the Westminster Abbey choir. I like what O'Donnell does very much.

In fact none of the performances I've heard make the upper voices dominate, though clearly Tessa Bonner's voice is very striking.


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## Allegro Con Brio

I unfortunately found this mass pretty bland and unmemorable in the Tallis Scholars recording, but I haven't been a great fan of theirs; it always sounds like they're intentionally "undersinging" to make it sound tender and precious, and the recorded sound wasn't great. BUT right now I am listening to Taverner's _Kyrie Leroy_ that opens the Hillier/Ars Nova Copenhagen album that Rick recommended above and it's stunningly gorgeous. Ready to move on to other listening objectives for this afternoon, but I will make sure to continue with Hillier's recording of the _Western Wynde Mass_ tomorrow.


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## Simplicissimus

Allegro Con Brio said:


> I unfortunately found this mass pretty bland and unmemorable in the Tallis Scholars recording, but I haven't been a great fan of theirs; it always sounds like they're intentionally "undersinging" to make it sound tender and precious, and the recorded sound wasn't great. BUT right now I am listening to Taverner's _Kyrie Leroy_ that opens the Hillier/Ars Nova Copenhagen album that Rick recommended above and it's stunningly gorgeous. Ready to move on to other listening objectives for this afternoon, but I will make sure to continue with Hillier's recording of the _Western Wynde Mass_ tomorrow.


The Tallis Scholars CD also contains the _Leroy Kyrie_ And the _Missa Gloria Tibi Trinitas_. I will check out the Hillier recordings. Irrespective of performance issues, I'm wondering what everyone thinks about the _Western Wynde Mass_'s calling card secular tune and how it is repeatedly quoted throughout the Mass. What's immediately interesting to me is that the tune is to my ears so unlike catchy, memorable folk tunes. It is complex and haunting. I don't have the sheet music, but long ago I more or less figured out how to play it on recorder, which of course tends to make it memorable and recognizable for me.


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## Room2201974

Hmmmm! From around 1340 to around 1500 a question you could ask of a composer was: "So what did you do between Landini cadences?


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## Jacck

I listened to the Taverner's Western Wynde Mass and enjoyed it. That is unfortunately all I can say


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## Allegro Con Brio

August 9 - August 16: Anonymous (15th century) - Codex Faenza (Codex Bonadies) 

[submitted by: Jacck)

Really looking forward to this one! According to Wiki this is the earliest extant keyboard music in history, along with some vocal pieces. I think this will be a nice little break from all those masses, etc.

I do not see any recordings of the _entire_ codex (which contains a massive amount of music) on streaming, but I'm guessing the one to hear is the Naxos album from Ensemble Unicorn that can be heard on this YouTube playlist, though the keyboard pieces are arranged for chamber ensemble here. I will make sure to post any keyboard versions that I come across.


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## Jacck

I have listened to two versions, the already mentioned Unicorn Ensemble, and

Essemble Organum




first are the usual masses, the second half contains only instrumental music, which is interesting


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## RICK RIEKERT

From the way the figuration is "broken" it appears that much of the Faenza Codex keyboard music was intended for the virginal. Here is a good example played by fabulous Corina Marti of the remarkably varied and free intabulations found in the Faenza Codex. It also demonstrates a high level of virtuosity that was unmatched until the later intabulations of the Buxheim Organ Book.


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## Simplicissimus

Listening to the Ensemble Unicorn. Love it!


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## Mandryka

RICK RIEKERT said:


> From the way the figuration is "broken" it appears that much of the Faenza Codex keyboard music was intended for the virginal. Here is a good example played by fabulous Corina Marti of the remarkably varied and free intabulations found in the Faenza Codex. It also demonstrates a high level of virtuosity that was unmatched until the later intabulations of the Buxheim Organ Book.


This is very good, thanks for posting it.

I've been listening to this over the past week -- it may be on youtube -- I love it. It is iconoclastic.


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## Jacck

an organ interpretation


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## Allegro Con Brio

My general impression of this music so far is that it is historically fascinating for being some of the earliest instrumental music that we have, but not very conducive to pleasurable listening for me. However, I am amazed at how “non-Western” some of it sounds, almost like primitive chant rituals. Very intriguing stuff.


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## JAS

Of course, we must ask ourselves how much we understand about these notes on the page, and how best or most accurately to bring them into the final product of a performance.


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## science

JAS said:


> Of course, we must ask ourselves how much we understand about these notes on the page, and how best or most accurately to bring them into the final product of a performance.


This is an issue with almost any music -- but the older we go back, the worse it gets. I have a lot of respect for the performers who take up the challenge because of course they figure out everything they can, and then they make their best guesses, and no one's going to agree about whether the guesses were right. So the musicians can know in advance that a lot of critics are going to carp about their performances not being historically accurate. It's just an easy thing for anyone to say because it's always going to be true.

All the same, I really appreciate their work and talent.


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## Mandryka

Allegro Con Brio said:


> My general impression of this music so far is that it is historically fascinating for being some of the earliest instrumental music that we have, but not very conducive to pleasurable listening for me. However, I am amazed at how "non-Western" some of it sounds, almost like primitive chant rituals. Very intriguing stuff.


Why are you focusing on the instrumental music? It only makes up a small part of the manuscript. My advice to you is to find that Mala Punica CD I posted a picture of.


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## Jacck

JAS said:


> Of course, we must ask ourselves how much we understand about these notes on the page, and how best or most accurately to bring them into the final product of a performance.


wikipedia says that the intabulations are the most accurate information about historical music that we have
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intabulation
_"Intabulations are an important source of information for historically informed performance because they show ornaments as they would have been played on various instruments, and they are a huge clue as to the actual performance of musica ficta, since tablature shows where a musician places their fingers, which is less up to interpretation than certain staff notations"_


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## JAS

science said:


> This is an issue with almost any music -- but the older we go back, the worse it gets. I have a lot of respect for the performers who take up the challenge because of course they figure out everything they can, and then they make their best guesses, and no one's going to agree about whether the guesses were right. So the musicians can know in advance that a lot of critics are going to carp about their performances not being historically accurate. It's just an easy thing for anyone to say because it's always going to be true.
> 
> All the same, I really appreciate their work and talent.


It is always going to be true that it is not _perfectly_ accurate. It is not necessarily true that it is not _essentially_ accurate. The question I raise is one of degree. I too appreciate the work and talent that is required in bringing this music to life again, but in having such an appreciation, we should not dismiss the actual nature of the challenge. (What may be a little strange is to make a statement that we all agree is true, and yet to be criticized for saying it, merely because it may be obvious.)

The nature of the problem is well demonstrated by the history of attempts to decipher the Mayan language. For many years, the field was dominated by acknowledged experts who made pronouncements and fended off disagreement only eventually to be shown to have been wrong all along, and the disagreements correct after all. Once the erroneous assumptions were overturned, actual translations began to pour out, which is what verified the newer approaches. (I am not sure that there is an equivalent means of verification for the music, although some elements may also hold there. One of the ways that scholars deduce what ancient Egyptian sounded like is based on a knowledge of what modern descendants of the language sound like today, and how languages tend to evolve over time. This music should fit in an historical context, like a piece of a jigsaw puzzle. If it stands out as too radically different, there is probably something wrong with the piece, or it is being fit into the wrong puzzle.)


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## Mandryka

Jacck said:


> _"Intabulations . . . are a huge clue as to the actual performance of musica ficta_


_

I'd like to hear more about that! I'm sceptical._


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## premont

Jacck;1899761
[URL said:


> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intabulation[/URL]
> _"Intabulations are an important source of information for historically informed performance because they show ornaments as they would have been played on various instruments, and they are a huge clue as to the actual performance of musica ficta, since tablature shows where a musician places their fingers, which is less up to interpretation than certain staff notations"_


A photo copy af the Faenza codex can be found at IMSLP. I can't see how this kind of intabulation tells anything about musica ficta, so far there are no accidentals. The claim about ornamentation is more obviously true IMO.


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## Allegro Con Brio

Mandryka said:


> Why are you focusing on the instrumental music? It only makes up a small part of the manuscript. My advice to you is to find that Mala Punica CD I posted a picture of.


Will do, thanks. I guess I just wanted a little break from all the vocal music.


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## RICK RIEKERT

Mandryka said:


> I'd like to hear more about that! I'm sceptical.


The crucial importance of intabulations is largely due to the specific information in notating accidentals that only tablature can provide. Whereas vocal sources do not notate many of the sharps and flats to be sung, and theorists offer advice that is either conflicting or too general, tablature notation shows exact finger placement on the instrument. Assuming that these tablatures are faithful to the intentions of the composer, intabulations are the most revealing sources for knowing how flexibly musica ficta was employed in performance. And even when they appear not to support the model - and two intabulations of the same piece will occasionally disagree on details of chromatic alteration - they prove that we cannot really speak of a "fixed" performance tradition in Renaissance music. Different traditions of interpreting the pitch-content of a single work appear not only to have been tolerated during the Renaissance but to have been expected. In short, to quote Robert Toft, "the intabulations ... when coupled with the theoretical guidelines, provide the truest reflection of contemporary practices that we can hope to obtain".


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## premont

RICK RIEKERT said:


> The crucial importance of intabulations is largely due to the specific information in notating accidentals that only tablature can provide. Whereas vocal sources do not notate many of the sharps and flats to be sung, and theorists offer advice that is either conflicting or too general, tablature notation shows exact finger placement on the instrument. Assuming that these tablatures are faithful to the intentions of the composer, intabulations are the most revealing sources for knowing how flexibly musica ficta was employed in performance. And even when they appear not to support the model - and two intabulations of the same piece will occasionally disagree on details of chromatic alteration - they prove that we cannot really speak of a "fixed" performance tradition in Renaissance music. Different traditions of interpreting the pitch-content of a single work appear not only to have been tolerated during the Renaissance but to have been expected. In short, to quote Robert Toft, "the intabulations ... when coupled with the theoretical guidelines, provide the truest reflection of contemporary practices that we can hope to obtain".


This is too much generalising. Would you mind to look at the Codex Faenza intabulations and tell in which way the accidentals are displayed?


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## RICK RIEKERT

premont said:


> This is too much generalising. Would you mind to look at the Codex Faenza intabulations and tell in which way the accidentals are displayed?


Sorry to disappoint. The question was about intabulations and the performance of musica ficta. If you want specifics I suggest you do your own homework.


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## premont

RICK RIEKERT said:


> Sorry to disappoint. The question was about intabulations and the performance of musica ficta. If you want specifics I suggest you do your own homework.


Well, the generalisation you offered makes no sense concerning Codex Faenza. I have - already before my earlier post - looked through several of the intabulations from that manuscript, and there is absolutely no way the musica ficta can be deduced from the score. Since our departure point is Codex Faenza, I wonder what your intentions were, since you seem unwilling and maybe unable to eleborate the question.


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## RICK RIEKERT

premont said:


> Since our departure point is Codex Faenza, I wonder what your intentions were, since you seem unwilling and maybe unable to eleborate the question.


Sir, you _may_ wonder.


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## Simplicissimus

This discussion of intabulations vis a vis realization of accidentals and ornaments is really interesting, and apparently contentious. In my experience as a recorder, crumhorn, and traverso player, I and the other Renaissance/Baroque wind players relied on the ensemble director to demonstrate for us (on the harpsichord) how to play the accidentals and ornaments, with the accidentals being specific to passages in a given piece of music and the ornaments usually being of several standard types (trill, mordent, etc.) but sometimes more complex or specific -- all according to the director's instructions. I remember one time one of the other musicians asked the director how he knew how to realize the accidentals and ornaments. This struck me as a surprising but very apt question; somehow I hadn't thought about it before. The director said, "It's from tablature manuscripts. I studied those when I was in grad school and got a general idea about how musica ficta works." None of us could read tablature at all and we didn't have any tablature scores, so we just imitated the director's harpsichord renditions and sometimes scribbled a few notes on the (staffed) score to help us remember. But we usually rehearsed enough that we were synched up fine. When we didn't rehearse enough before a performance, the accidentals and ornaments tended to get out of sync and it sounded really terrible.


----------



## caracalla

I find I tire of this stuff rather quickly, and am not surprised - the secular music of the Middle Ages (as opposed to that of the Renaissance) just doesn't do it for me and never has. Still, there are occasional exceptions to the rule, with all such gratefully received. I've found that first number on the Ensemble Unicorn disc ('Biance flour') absolutely haunting and a most welcome discovery.


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## premont

I wonder if some of you confuse intabulation with tabulature.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tablature
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intabulation

*Tabulature* is a shorthand musical notation, there are different kinds of tabulature, organ tabulature, lute tabulature et.c. The earliest preserved tabulatures are from about 1450.

*Intabulation* means an arrangement of a piece, mostly vocal, for keyboard or fretted string instruments. Intabulations may be written in tabulature but not always. The Codex Faenza intabulations are not written in tabulature, what can be seen from the photo copy available at at IMSLP. For that reason the Codex Faenza doesn't give any clue as to musica ficta, and it is irrelevant to mention this in the context of Codex Faenza.


----------



## Allegro Con Brio

*August 16 - August 23: FEATURED COMPOSER - Johannes Ciconia (1370-1412)*

_Nominated Work: Una Panthera [submitted by: premont]_

There looks to be plenty of recordings on YouTube of this short piece for your listening pleasure. There are also some nice-looking compilations of Ciconia's music on my streaming, including a set of his complete works by Diabolus in Musica/La Morra on the Ricercar label:


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## Allegro Con Brio

Una Panthera is an attractive little piece with some interesting rhythms. Some of the other Ciconia pieces on that Diabolus in Musica are quite nice too.

I don’t know how to describe my reactions to early music very well. Maybe from now on I will just listen to the selections and stop trying to explain what I hear.

Is this medieval music, Renaissance music, or transitional?


----------



## premont

Allegro Con Brio said:


> I don't know how to describe my reactions to early music very well. Maybe from now on I will just listen to the selections and stop trying to explain what I hear.


A very sensible way, which I find the most rewarding in the long run.



Allegro Con Brio said:


> Is this medieval music, Renaissance music, or transitional?


A few of Ciconias works are written in the Subtilior style, and the other works are written in a more flowing Italian influenced style e.g. Una Panthera, foreshadowing Dufay and his gang. Ciconia who's active life took place in the last quarter of the 14th and the first 14 years of the 15th century must therefore be seen as a kind of transitional figure between late medieval and early renaissance.


----------



## Kjetil Heggelund

First I heard the above version with flute and lute and maybe some other instruments, then the recording by Huelgas ensemble with brass instruments. The music reminds me of motets by Machaut which are probably half a century earlier. I have already fallen in love with Graindelavoix in their early music recordings, especially Machaut, and wish they sang this. They have real attitude and a somewhat raw way of singing that gives the music more bite! There are similar chord progressions that resolve "chromatically to fifth chords" in endings here and that tells me it's medieval music. That progression probably has a name...I think Dufay did that too, but he's early renaissance...


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## Mandryka

Kjetil Heggelund said:


> . I have already fallen in love with Graindelavoix in their early music recordings, especially Machaut, and wish they sang this. They have real attitude and a somewhat raw way of singing that gives the music more bite!.


If you can see what you think of these two


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## Mandryka

Allegro Con Brio said:


> Una Panthera is an attractive little piece with some interesting rhythms. Some of the other Ciconia pieces on that Diabolus in Musica are quite nice too.


I don't think (but I'm not sure) that it's Diabolus in Musica, I think it's La Morra.


----------



## Kjetil Heggelund

Mandryka said:


> If you can see what you think of these two
> 
> View attachment 141753
> 
> 
> View attachment 141754


Listening to the Orlando Consort sing Ciconia now. I'm sure I've heard about these guys before. They seem less intense than Graindelavoix. Ciconia is a new composer for me, but I know I can listen to him all day  Similar to Machaut in my ears.


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## SanAntone

I prefer *Alla Francesca*'s recording of "Una panthera" along with the previously mentioned *Diabolus in Musica* to Huelgas Ensemble's version.






But prefer the work to be sung; the Orlando Consort is a good suggestion.


----------



## Mandryka

Kjetil Heggelund said:


> Listening to the Orlando Consort sing Ciconia now. I'm sure I've heard about these guys before. They seem less intense than Graindelavoix. Ciconia is a new composer for me, but I know I can listen to him all day  Similar to Machaut in my ears.


As far as I know there's only one song by Graindelavoix by Ciconia, this. The CD is well worth trying






(Youtubes are a problem on my computer -- this CD


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## Mandryka

SanAntone said:


> I prefer *Alla Francesca*'s recording of "Una panthera" along with the previously mentioned *Diabolus in Musica* to Huelgas Ensemble's version.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> But prefer the work to be sung; the Orlando Consort is a good suggestion.


Don't you like brass?


----------



## Mandryka

Kjetil Heggelund said:


> Listening to the Orlando Consort sing Ciconia now. I'm sure I've heard about these guys before. They seem less intense than Graindelavoix. Ciconia is a new composer for me, but I know I can listen to him all day  Similar to Machaut in my ears.


What Orlando Consort does is sing Panthera with someone humming along rather than use an instrument. They use vocalise. Graindelavoix do the same in _Le ray au soleyl_. It's by no means a widespread practice in this sort of music.


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## SanAntone

Mandryka said:


> Don't you like brass?


Well, compared to the other two recordings, I don't like the brass as much. It sounds a bit too "crude", for lack of a better word. And on second thought, I do not prefer the Orlando Consort's version. So, I'm back to liking the Alla Francesca & Diabolus in Musica the best.

But, since I've never focused on Ciconia that much, and certainly not this work - I've enjoyed listening to all of the recordings.


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## Mandryka

SanAntone said:


> Well, compared to the other two recordings, I don't like the brass as much. It sounds a bit too "crude", for lack of a better word.


I know exactly what you mean there!

One thing I really love in that Nevel set is Con lagreme bagnandome.


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## Knorf

Finally getting to Johannes Ciconia's _Una panthera_. Ciconia is not a composer I was previously acquainted with, as far as I remember. His style to me most strongly suggests the late Medieval period; as noted he was part of the _ars subtilior_ with it's florid melodic style and remarkable (for the time) rhythmic complexity. But anyway, if this had been a listening test for, say, a graduate-level school of music entrance exam, I would have said late Medieval era, and would have been exceedingly proud if I had remembered _ars subtilior_, and even more so if I had spelled it correctly.

For some cheap investigating, I read the composer's entry on Wikipedia (I know, but it can point you in interesting directions). I was chuffed to find the following quotation from musicologist Daniel Albright, who spoke of the _ars subtilior_ movement's "autonomous delight in extending the kingdom of sound." Great description!

I'm certainly intrigued sufficiently to look for more of Ciconia and related work by other similar composers. I admit that for me, the _ars subtilior_ was mainly something I learned about in music history when I was undergraduate, and not really something I have in my head to any notable degree. But this means: here's some new repertory to explore!

I'm enjoying this thread, and as expected I am learning a most satisfying amount of music previously unknown to me.


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## Simplicissimus

I've been listening via streaming to the _Una Panthera_ madrigal sung by the Ensemble Ars Nova Project, on their "Homage to Johannes Ciconia" album (1992, Telarc). As ACB said, nice rhythms, bopping right along. I wonder whether there is a recorder ensemble version of this piece. I think it would work very well. There are lots of YT recordings of this madrigal, so I'm going to start working my way through them.


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## premont

Simplicissimus said:


> I've been listening via streaming to the _Una Panthera_ madrigal sung by the Ensemble Ars Nova Project, on their "Homage to Johannes Ciconia" album (1992, Telarc). As ACB said, nice rhythms, bopping right along. I wonder whether there is a recorder ensemble version of this piece. I think it would work very well. There are lots of YT recordings of this madrigal, so I'm going to start working my way through them.


There are at least three recorder versions on youtube, all of them very fine.

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=ciconia+una+panthera


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## premont

I am happy to see, that Ciconia has gained new followers.


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## Allegro Con Brio

*August 23 - August 30: Richard Hygons (1435-1509) - Salve regina*

_Submitted by: RICK RIEKERT_

Apparently we only have two extant works from Hygons, with this approx. 12-minute piece being of particular interest to scholars. It is from the Eton Choirbook, "one of very few collections of Latin liturgical music to survive the Reformation," Hygons being one of the earliest composers represented within. Here is the piece:


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## Mandryka

Allegro Con Brio said:


> *August 23 - August 30: Richard Hygons (1435-1509) - Salve regina*
> 
> _Submitted by: RICK RIEKERT_
> 
> Apparently we only have two extant works from Hygons, with this approx. 12-minute piece being of particular interest to scholars. It is from the Eton Choirbook, "one of very few collections of Latin liturgical music to survive the Reformation," Hygons being one of the earliest composers represented within. Here is the piece:


It's an extremely fine bit of music, very well sung on that recording by Pomerium.


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## Kjetil Heggelund

This is why I call vocal music from the renaissance for "angel music"


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## SanAntone

Mandryka said:


> It's an extremely fine bit of music, very well sung on that recording by Pomerium.


Yes, I prefer Pomerium to Harry Chrisophers/The Sixteen's recording. As far as I can tell, those might be the only two.

New composer, new work for me. I've never delved deeply into English Renaissance music beyond Byrd, Dunstable, and Tallis.


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## RICK RIEKERT

Like most other large-scale works from late-fifteenth-century England, those in the Eton Choirbook alternate trios and duos for single voices with great waves of sound for the full choir. The statutes for Eton College drawn up by Henry VI in 1443 specified that its chapel was to have a large choir that would sing an elaborate Marian antiphon-such as the _Salve regina_-every day in the evening. After the War of the Roses, the original choir of sixteen boys and ten adults was reduced in size to ten choirboys and seven adults, evidently the size intended for the music preserved in the Eton Choirbook, which was compiled in the years around 1495-1500.

The Virgin Mary was considered a "dragon-slayer" in the fifteenth century, for by her Immaculate Conception and purity she helped undo the evil Eve had contracted from the snake in the Garden. According to Anne Walters Robertson, Hygons's _Salve regina _places the "Caput" melody in the tenor voice as a means of recalling Mary's dragon-slaying prowess.

There isn't much information online about Hygons' mighty motet, so here is an abstract of Robertson's lengthy essay on the Caput masses and Hygons' _Salve regina_: "God's dramatic curse of Adam, Eve, and the serpent, as recorded in Genesis 3:14-15, contains a theological ambiguity that played out in the visual arts, literature, and, as this article contends, music of the fifteenth and sixteenth centuries. Translations of this passage leave in doubt whether a male, a female, or both, will defeat sin by crushing Satan's head ("caput"). This issue lies at the heart of the three Caput masses by an anonymous Englishman, Johannes Ockeghem, and Jacob Obrecht, and the Caput Motet for the Virgin by Richard Hygons from the Eton Choirbook. Fifteenth-century discussions of the roles of Christ and Mary in confronting sin, often called the "head of the dragon," help unravel the meaning of these works. The Caput masses are Christ-focused and emphasize the Savior or one of his surrogates suppressing the beast's head, as seen in illumination, rubric, and canon found in the masses. Folklorically based rituals and concepts of liturgical time are similarly built around the idea of the temporary reign of the Devil, who is ultimately trodden down by Christ. Hygons's motet appears after celebration of the Immaculate Conception was authorized in the late fifteenth century. This feast proclaimed Mary's conquest of sin through her own trampling on the dragon; the motet stresses Marian elements of the Caput theology, especially the contrast between the Virgin's spotlessness and Eve's corruption. Features of the Caput tradition mirror topics discussed in astrological and astronomical treatises and suggest that the composer of the original Caput Mass may also have been an astronomer. The disappearance of the Caput tradition signals its lasting influence through its progeny, which rise up in yet another renowned family of polyphonic masses. Together, the Caput masses and motet encompass the multifaceted doctrine of Redemption from the late middle ages under one highly symbolic Caput rubric."


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## Knorf

Did anyone post this rock & roll version of the Ciconia? It includes a fascinating instrument, the viola d'amore a chiavi:


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## caracalla

This is a wonderful performance by Pomerium, though I find that The Sixteen's rendition is also growing on me. I think this is all we have at present. I had hoped to find Hygons' SR among the 5 CDs of Eton Choirbook music put out in recent years by Stephen Darlington and Christ Church Cathedral, but no dice. They recorded half the 50-odd pieces considered performable, including 9 premieres, but I gather there are still a dozen which have never been committed to disc by anyone.


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## Ariasexta

Songs and motets by Heinrich Isaac(1450-1517)
Arnold Van Bruck(1500-1554)
Jacobus Vaet(1529-1567)
Jacob Regnart (1540-1599)
Orlando di Lasso(1532-1594)
From an australian label of very high sound quality, ABC Classics. The performance is also by an australian ensemble, which is as good as the best european choral ensembles. Highly recommended for starters or amateurs of Renaissance vocal music.


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## Mandryka

Knorf said:


> Did anyone post this rock & roll version of the Ciconia? It includes a fascinating instrument, the viola d'amore a chiavi:


You can hear they've got a background in free improvisation, it's maybe the best of it's kind I've ever heard, thanks.


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## premont

Mandryka said:


> You can hear they've got a background in free improvisation, it's maybe the best of it's kind I've ever heard, thanks.


This version, Seligmann solo, isn't that bad either:


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## science

I really like the Hygons. I hadn't paid much attention to it, so thanks for drawing attention to it.

Whenever it's time to do another work from the Eton Choirbook, Browne's _O Maria Salvatoris mater_ is also very nice.


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## Mandryka

Here's a great favourite of mine from the Eton Choirbook, a magnificat by William, Monk of Stratford


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## Allegro Con Brio

*August 30 - September 6: FEATURED COMPOSER - William Byrd (1540-1623)*

_Nominated works: Infelix ego [submitted by sbmonty] and Mass for Four Voices [submitted by Art Rock]_

The extent that Byrd is "early music" is debatable, but regardless he is certainly one of my favorite pre-Baroque composers. His music is warm, rich, and thoroughly attractive - perhaps not particularly "challenging" but very beautiful. Recorded performances abound of these works though I'm certainly partial to the classic album of the Masses for Three, Four, and Five Voices by the Choir of Kings College Cambridge.


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## Allegro Con Brio

Listening to Infelix Ego right now from Herreweghe/Collegium Vocale Gent. So beautiful, almost too beautiful for a piece titled, “I am unhappy!” As far as Mass for Four Voices, I could listen to it all day. For some reason Byrd (along with Josquin and some Ockeghem) is the only pre-Baroque music that I can easily sustain attention for long periods of time.


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## Allegro Con Brio

*September 6 - September 13: FEATURED COMPOSER - Josquin Des Prez (1455-1521)*

_Nominated works: Absalon fili mi [submitted by EdwardBast] and Missa pange lingua [submitted by Knorf]_

Josquin hardly needs an introduction. Here's the YouTube with score for _Absalon fili mi._ Missa Pange Lingua has many recordings and is possibly my favorite Renaissance work.


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## Knorf

I know. I basically picked the Beethoven 5 of Renaissance Masses... But I love it, admittely just like everyone. 

Or it's a bit like saying "I love this beautiful lake!" Yep. Join the club. 

Doesn't make it less good, though.


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## Jacck

I listened to the Missa pange lingua. It was OK, but I wouldnt go as far as to say it is my favorite renaissance work. I will try to relisten to it later when I am in a different mood, perhaps I will appreciate it more later.


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## EdwardBast

*Josquin: Absalon fili mi*

I nominated Josquin's motet _Absalon fili mi_ for this week's listening. Here is some background on the work.

The four voice motet _Absalon film mi_ was probably composed around 1497 when Josquin was working and living in Cambrai. It's thought to have been written in memory of Juan Borgia, a son of Pope Alexander VI (Rodrigo Borgia) who had been murdered that year and whose body was dumped in the Tiber. Josquin had worked in the Papal Choir for at least eight years (1485-94) and might still have been attached to the service of the pope at the time. Certainly his position in Cambrai was due to the action of Alexander.

The short text of the motet translates as:

Absalon my son
Would that I might die for you
My son Absalon
Let me live no longer
But descend into hell weeping.

The motet is most famous for the settings of the final line (a section setting the two final lines is repeated), which illustrates the descent into hell in a particularly vivid way. The overall mode of the work is transposed Mixolydian with the final on B-flat. If one expressed the harmonic motion of this passage in modern terms (with capital letters representing major triads and lower case representing minor triads), the chord progression would be:

Bb-g-Eb-c-Ab-f-Db-Gb-F-Bb

This systematic descent into the distant terrain of Db and Gb is thoroughly remarkable for the era, more natural for the harmony of Brahms than for the language of a Renaissance composer. Most of the accidentals creating these remote harmonies are not actually present in the score. They occur as _music ficta_, notes trained singers would automatically add by altering the notated pitches (in this case by flatting them) in order to avoid dissonances that would otherwise occur. Another unusual feature is the low B-flat in the bass on the final note. Because of this extended use of _music ficta_ and the vivid text painting created by the unusual progression and range, this motet is considered an example of _musica reservata_, a contemporary term for, among other things, works characterized by arcane practices and expression likely only to be appreciated by connoisseurs.

Here are two performances, the first with a score and more than one voice to a part. When following the score on youtube, note the accidentals (flat, sharp, and natural signs) above the score. Though these accidentals aren't notated in the score, the work would have been performed with them. The second performance is by the Hiliard Ensemble (weirdly transposed upward a tritone? The transposition irks me).:











Here's some general biographical data on Josquin and his career:


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## EdwardBast

Note, the term musica ficta in the above was edited by auto-correct to read music ficta ;(


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## Mandryka

There's an interesting Absalon on this CD, for two voices and lute.









Graindelavoix give it quite a rich instrumentation, and sing it in a very responsive and lively way. They attribute it to Pierre de la Rue.


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## Mandryka

Graindelavoix have never recorded all the Missa Pange Lingue, but they have done the Sanctus in a concert, and it is wonderful! You'll have to dig into the YouTube to find it, I can let people have the file for each track of the concert if they send me a PM






For the whole mass, I've started to listen to the OVPP recording here


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## Jacck

Mandryka said:


> View attachment 142694


an interesting cover: a histological preparation? It looks like skin


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## EdwardBast

Mandryka said:


> There's an interesting Absalon on this CD, for two voices and lute.
> Graindelavoix give it quite a rich instrumentation, and sing it in a very responsive and lively way. They attribute it to Pierre de la Rue.


Do they say on what basis they attribute it to de la Rue? I've hear that attribution before, but stylistically it is perfect Josquin.


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## Mandryka

EdwardBast said:


> Do they say on what basis they attribute it to de la Rue? I've hear that attribution before, but stylistically it is perfect Josquin.


They cite Honey Meconi, "Another look at Absalon", in Tijdschrift van de Vereniging voor Nederlandse Muziekgeschiedenis, 48, 1998, pp. 3-29.

By the way they also attribute De profundis clamavi to Nicolas Champion, citing Patrick Macey, "Josquin and Champion: conflicting attributions for the Psalm Motet De profundis clamavi", in Uno gentile et subtile ingenio, in Studies in Renaissance music in honour of Bonnie J Blackburn, Turnhout, 2009, pp. 453-468 .


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## Mandryka

Mandryka said:


> For the whole mass, I've started to listen to the OVPP recording here
> 
> View attachment 142694


This is quite an interesting thing to hear - well worth exploring even if you end up rejecting it. One voice to a part, à cappella, high part taken by a woman.


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## EdwardBast

Mandryka said:


> They cite Honey Meconi, "Another look at Absalon", in Tijdschrift van de Vereniging voor Nederlandse Muziekgeschiedenis, 48, 1998, pp. 3-29.
> 
> By the way they also attribute De profundis clamavi to Nicolas Champion, citing Patrick Macey, "Josquin and Champion: conflicting attributions for the Psalm Motet De profundis clamavi", in Uno gentile et subtile ingenio, in Studies in Renaissance music in honour of Bonnie J Blackburn, Turnhout, 2009, pp. 453-468 .


Thanks!

Until I see the essay, I'm wondering if this is based on a mistaken identification of someone living in Italy under the name de la Rue who was thought to be our Pietr van der straaten but it turned out wasn't.


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## RICK RIEKERT

In the attached essay (pages 3-12), musicologist Jill Anderson provides a useful summary of the arguments for and against the attribution of _Absalon_ to Josquin.

https://soundideas.pugetsound.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1208&context=summer_research


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## EdwardBast

RICK RIEKERT said:


> In the attached essay (pages 3-12), musicologist Jill Anderson provides a useful summary of the arguments for and against the attribution of _Absalon_ to Josquin.
> 
> https://soundideas.pugetsound.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1208&context=summer_research


Thanks Rick. I've read both this article and the Honey Meconi one suggested by Mandryka. Both are extremely weak in the area of stylistic analysis. To be sure they address text setting, range of voices, and metric signs, but barely a mention is made of the structure. What strikes me as particularly Josquin about Absalon is the way points of imitation are constructed, the sequence in which they're presented, and the way they alternate with other forms of imitation. To wit, Absalon begins with two strict points of imitation:

bar#
1-9 - First point of imitation S, A, T, B.
10-15 - Point Two, A, B, S, T

This is thoroughly typical for Josquin and, as Meconi notes, only occurs in two motets by de la Rue. Following this we find paired imitation (with a modulation), one of Josquin's most common methods of varying the texture after the first strict points of imitation. See his Ave Maria for a similar example. This is followed by counterpoint in freer imitation:

16-25 - paired imitation with modulation to F
26-36 -freer counterpoint with hints of imitation (on Absalon fili mi)

Another nearly complete point of imitation occurs beginning in m. 37 followed by more paired imitation to end the first part of the motet.

In general, this is all typical of Josquin's style and, according to Meconi, quite unusual for de la Rue. I'm inclined to agree with Anderson's conclusion: If the motet is misattributed, there is a whole line of more likely suspects than de la Rue based on style.


----------



## caracalla

Mandryka said:


> This is quite an interesting thing to hear - well worth exploring even if you end up rejecting it. One voice to a part, à cappella, high part taken by a woman.


Machaut Machine is news to me, I must say. However for the most part I was quite taken with this treatment of MPL, and looked into them further as I thought their approach might suit me in the mediaeval repertory. Unfortunately, I can't find any reference to them after 2017, when they seem to have been still quite active. Now defunct?


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## EdwardBast

What the above discussion of attribution in Josquin is teaching me is that I might be suffering from "big name syndrome." In #293 I talked about features that were typical of Josquin — but now it occurs to me that I really don't know how typical these features are for all the less-known figures that were Josquin's contemporaries. Live and learn.


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## Mandryka

Bjorn Schmelzer uses the word _ghostwriters _for Pierre de la Rue and Nicolas Champion, he calls them Josquin's ghostwriters.

As far as Machaut Machine is concerned, they have a couple of recordings on Bandcamp

https://machautmachine.bandcamp.com/


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## EdwardBast

Mandryka said:


> Bjorn Schmelzer uses the word _ghostwriters _for Pierre de la Rue and Nicolas Champion, he calls them Josquin's ghostwriters.
> https://machautmachine.bandcamp.com/


Ghostwriters is off target though. The relationship is more like van Meegerin and Vermeer, except the culpability is all on the publishers' side in this case. Publishers knew which name would sell.


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## SanAntone

Some of the attribution problems were not due to publishers wishing to cash in on a big name, such as Josquin, but errors in dating the lifetimes of composers, re: *Loyset Compère*.

_Once believed to have learned from Josquin des Prez, Compère is now known to have been older than Josquin by perhaps a decade, and scholars believe that Compère may have pioneered some of the techniques and styles that both composers share. _


----------



## Allegro Con Brio

S*September 13 - September 20: FEATURED COMPOSER - Guillaume de Machaut (1300-1377)*

_Nominated Works: Messe de Nostre Dame [submitted by SanAntone], Puis Qu'en Oubli [submitted by ORigel], and Le Remède de Fortune [submitted by Room2201974]_

I'm a big Machaut fan. I find him interesting because he was one of the most renowned poets of his day and I find his music to be a remarkable fusion of sound and poetry. Messe de Nostre Dame has several recordings and is maybe the most popular medieval composition, while the very short "Puis Qu'en Oubli" is linked below. But I'm most intrigued by "La Remède de fortune," an hour-long narrative setting of original love poetry. I don't expect I'll find the time or commitment to listen to it all, but I'll try. Here's an interesting article I found on it, and here's a YouTube playlist of the complete work.


----------



## SanAntone

Another version of La Remède de fortune is by Marc Mauilon:






_Messe de Nostre Dame_ has received many recordings, but there are only a few of them that I think are first rate. Of course my criteria is specific: 1) all male group; 2) no instruments; 3) should include the full liturgical sections, and 4) a conservative treatment of _musica ficta_ (how accidentals are added to the music).

With this criteria in mind, these recordings are the ones I prefer:

*Andrew Parrott*, Taverner Consort






*Antoine Guerber*, Diabolus in Musica






*Mary Berry*, Schola Gregoriana of Cambridge

View attachment 142990


*Dominique Vellard*, Ensemble Gilles Binchois
(this video is from a live performance, but there is a studio recording available)






View attachment 142991


And there is this excellent box set of most of Machaut's sacred music by Ensemble Gilles Binchois

View attachment 142992


*Rebecca Stewart* has also recorded a fine Messe de Nostre Dame, as well as some lesser known groups. I"ve mangaed to assemble most, if not all, of the recordings of this work. But I do not like the early recordings, i.e. prior to Andrew Parrott since they incorporate elements which later scholarship has determined to be ahistorical and unidiomatic.


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## Mandryka

How nice to be reminded of puisqu’on oublie, from Le voir dit. It has been a pleasure to listen again to Orlando Consort doing it, it is IMO very successful poetically: interesting harmonies, strange and medieval feeling, not at all sentimental or kooky. 

Mauillon and Hamon’s Le Remède de Fortune which Sanantonio pointed out is a real challenge - there are some very long numbers in there. I’m not sure what to make of it.


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## Mandryka

Let me draw people's attention to Heinz Holliger's complainte, based on the complainte in Machaut's Remède here


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## Mandryka

Allegro Con Brio said:


> S* But I'm most intrigued by "La Remède de fortune," an hour-long narrative setting of original love poetry. I don't expect I'll find the time or commitment to listen to it all, but I'll try. *


*

There are only seven songs in Remede, so from that point of view it's not so long. They are

Qui n'aroit autre deport
Tels rit au main 
Joye, plaisance
En amer a douce vie 
Dame de qui toute ma joye vient 
Dame a vous sans retollir
Dame mon cuer en vous remaint

It's well worth investigating the songs individually because some of the more magical performances are on compilation recordings. For example, there's an astonishingly intense Dame à vous sans retollir on this pioneering recording made by amateurs







*


----------



## SanAntone

Mandryka said:


> There are only seven songs in Remede, so from that point of view it's not so long. They are
> 
> _Qui n'aroit autre deport
> Tels rit au main
> Joye, plaisance
> En amer a douce vie
> Dame de qui toute ma joye vient
> Dame a vous sans retollir
> Dame mon cuer en vous remaint_
> 
> It's well worth investigating the songs individually because some of the more magical performances are on compilation recordings. For example, there's an astonishingly intense _Dame à vous sans retollir_ on this pioneering recording made by amateurs
> 
> View attachment 143012


I am not sure your description is accurate.

"The Remede is a dit or narrative poem of over 4000 octosyllabic lines, telling the story of a young and inexperienced lover and his attempt to learn how to be happy, to live and love well, despite the reversals dished out by Fortune and her wheel. Interspersed into the highly didactic story are seven lyric poems, set to music, which present a catalogue of exemplary forms arranged from old to new, from the traditional, virtuoso lai, a comically extended complainte, and chanson royal-forms inherited from the previous century-to the newer forms of the so-called seconde rhétorique, the ballade and related baladelle, the virelai, and the rondeau (here labelled rondelet). " (Blue Heron program notes)

I think it is fair to say that done, as Machaut wrote it, it is a long work. It is not confined to those seven songs but has narrative poetry interspersed.


----------



## Mandryka

SanAntone said:


> I am not sure your description is accurate.
> 
> "The Remede is a dit or narrative poem of over 4000 octosyllabic lines, telling the story of a young and inexperienced lover and his attempt to learn how to be happy, to live and love well, despite the reversals dished out by Fortune and her wheel. Interspersed into the highly didactic story are seven lyric poems, set to music, which present a catalogue of exemplary forms arranged from old to new, from the traditional, virtuoso lai, a comically extended complainte, and chanson royal-forms inherited from the previous century-to the newer forms of the so-called seconde rhétorique, the ballade and related baladelle, the virelai, and the rondeau (here labelled rondelet). " (Blue Heron program notes)
> 
> I think it is fair to say that done, as Machaut wrote it, it is a long work. It is not confined to those seven songs but has narrative poetry interspersed.


Note the difference between

1. There are only seven songs in Remède (Remède is a thing and it contains exactly seven songs _inter alia_.)

And

2. Remède is only seven songs. (If anything is in Remède it is one of seven songs, if it's not one of those songs, it's not part of Remède.)

In logic we used to call this the _scope_ of the quantifier. It's really hard to disambiguate in natural language, that's why mathematicians use formal languages.


----------



## SanAntone

Mandryka said:


> Note the difference between
> 
> 1. There are only seven songs in Remède
> 
> And
> 
> 2. Remède is only seven songs.
> 
> In logic we used to call this the _scope_ of the quantifier.


Except after saying it only had seven songs, you concluded, "it's not so long." In fact, it is an hour and a half.


----------



## Mandryka

That’s because Mauillon takes 44 minutes for Tels rit au main. The one I like most takes 2 minutes and 44 seconds. Does he explain himself in the booklet? I’ll see if I can find it later.


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## SanAntone

Mandryka said:


> That's because Mauillon takes 44 minutes for Tel rit au main. The one I like most takes 2 minutes and 44 seconds.


You most likely heard an abridged version. It is hard to perform 4,000 lines of poetry (spoken or sung) without taking some time.

I am a fan of Mauilon's recording and treasure it for being the only complete version available (that I know of).


----------



## Mandryka

SanAntone said:


> You most likely heard an abridged version. It is hard to perform 4,000 lines of poetry (spoken or sung) without taking some time.
> 
> I am a fan of Mauilon's recording and treasure it for being the only complete version available (that I know of).


Yes the 44 minutes includes some spoken word and some instrumental passages. He's very professional.


----------



## SanAntone

Mandryka said:


> Yes the 44 minutes includes some spoken word and some instrumental passages. He's very professional.


"ome spoken word" makes up the majority of work. That's what Machaut wrote and how he intended it to be performed.

*Here* is a link to the work.

Of course, these days attention spans have shrunk compared to the audience of Machaut's day.


----------



## Mandryka

SanAntone said:


> Of course, these days attention spans have shrunk compared to the audience of Machaut's day.


Not really, operas sell out, not to mention long form Schubert, Beethoven etc. The problem is not in the elapsed time, it's in finding a way of presenting the Remede in a way which makes come off the page. I would like to hear an ensemble tackle it who have really investigated story telling -- Sequentia for example.


----------



## Mandryka

Mandryka said:


> Does he explain himself in the booklet? I'll see if I can find it later.


Nothing interesting in there, apart from the text.


----------



## SanAntone

Mandryka said:


> Not really, operas sell out, not to mention long form Schubert, Beethoven etc. The problem is not in the elapsed time, it's in finding a way of presenting the Remede in a way which makes come off the page. I would like to hear an ensemble tackle it who have really investigated story telling -- Sequentia for example.


I guess we will have to agree to disagree since I think *Marc Mauilon* performs L_e Remede de Fortune_ wonderfully. I would be skeptical of a mid-sized ensemble taking it on. My understanding of what we know, this kind of work was most likely to have been performed by a single individual, accompanied by some sort of stringed instrument, and possibly a flute of some sort, maybe a drum - but not much more. Pretty much exactly as Mauilon did it.

I would not enjoy Sequentia doing it since they are a female group, and the poetry would be unsuitable for them, not to mention to high voices.


----------



## Mandryka

SanAntone said:


> I would not enjoy Sequentia doing it since they are a female group.


No.

Have a listen to something like these if you can


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## SanAntone

Mandryka said:


> No.
> 
> Have a listen to something like these if you can
> 
> View attachment 143022
> 
> 
> View attachment 143023


I only knew of their Hildegard recordings and assumed they were all female. Those two recordings don't appear on Spotify, but there are some others with them singing as a mixed group.


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## Mandryka

SanAntone said:


> I only knew of their Hildegard recordings and assumed they were all female. Those two recordings don't appear on Spotify, but there are some others with them singing as a mixed group.


They seem to chop and change their approach. Women take some songs, men take others. I mentioned them because they've been involved in ethnographic work in Iceland looking at traditional story telling, they say that what they've learned has helped them to find a way of presenting story based early music. I saw them once, doing a show based on Beowulf music. Like Christopher Page, Benjamin Bagby is an expert in early harp practice. Worth looking at their website to get a feel for what they're about.


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## cheregi

Just popping in here to express my appreciation for this thread and the many excellent recommendations and insights from knowledgeable members - just from the last few pages I count Machaut Machine and Rebecca Stewart's Messe de Nostre Dame as really exciting finds I never would have gotten to on my own.


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## Mandryka

cheregi said:


> Just popping in here to express my appreciation for this thread and the many excellent recommendations and insights from knowledgeable members - just from the last few pages I count Machaut Machine and Rebecca Stewart's Messe de Nostre Dame as really exciting finds I never would have gotten to on my own.


There's a short review of Rebecca Stewart's Machaut mass here, Day 4, 29 August

http://www.musica-dei-donum.org/concert_reviews/HFOMU2005.html

It's a great shame it hasn't become commercially available. I can let anyone who wants it have it.


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## Kjetil Heggelund

I just discovered Ensemble Organum and Marcel Pérès! Listening to "Le chant de templiers" now. Nice and dark and somber to my ears with cool ornaments! I read that all their recordings are the result of several researchers working together.


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## Allegro Con Brio

*09/20-09/27: FEATURED COMPOSER - Antoine Brumel (1460-1512)*

_Nominated work: Missa et ecce terrae motus (Earthquake Mass)_ [submitted by Allegro Con Brio]

Oops, totally forgot I was up this week. In all honesty I remember loving this work but can't recall any specific details about it. I'll see if I can sneak in a listen within the next day and write my perceptions. Otherwise I'll leave it up to anyone else who wants to provide some information. For now I'll quote a review of the recording from Dominique Visse on Harmonia Mundi from Classics Today, not a website I frequent at all but I thought this described the work well:

_Antoine Brumel's Missa "Et ecce terrae motus" (otherwise known as the "earthquake" mass) was justly famous during the composer's lifetime and remains one of the true marvels of Renaissance choral writing, with its unusual scoring for 12 voices and for its carefully constructed melodic detailing against astonishingly long stretches of slowly-moving blocks of harmony. Although this work has absolutely nothing to do with earthquakes (its cantus firmus is taken from the Easter antiphon "And behold, there was a great earthquake"), if you want to be pleasantly, unforgettably "shaken", just listen to this disc's final eight minutes-the last part of the Agnus Dei. Nothing in all Renaissance music can surpass this for its sheer emotional power and impressive command of musical forces. And frankly, no composer before or since has so effectively sustained a text-based idea (Sibelius achieved a similar, orchestral result with the conclusion of his Second symphony), the closest being William Byrd or Vaughan Williams in their respective masses. You'll know what I mean when you experience Brumel's Agnus Dei, with its seemingly endless cascade of richly colored, dense-textured harmony, topped with swirling whirlpools of melodies, flavored with the reedy timbres of a choir of sackbutts and exclaimed by the very fine voices of Dominique Visse's Ensemble Clément Janequin.
_


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## Mandryka

I have a concert recoding of this mass by Cut Circle in Maastricht in 2014 - anyone who wants it can have it, PM me. The music is a bit too flamboyant, extravert and large scale to interest me at the moment, but I’ll give it another go.


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## Allegro Con Brio

I’ve been listening to the recording from Christopher Jackson and the Ancient Music Studio of Montreal. The polyphony is incredible and the dramatic expression captivating. This is easily one of my favorite compositions that I have heard before 1600. I find that some other pieces we’ve done can lull me into an indifferent stupor but this grips me by the throat. I guess I need music to be “flamboyant” in order to interest me However I’m not all that impressed by the singing on that recording so I should check out the Tallis Scholars version, even though I feel like they “prettify” and smooth over most things they do.


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## Simplicissimus

Hooray, I have Brumel’s “Earthquake Mass” on my streaming service - Peter Phillips and the Tallis Scholars. Looking forward to getting into it this week. I want to get back to early music after a couple of weeks listening to almost everything but.


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## caracalla

It's rather stupendous, isn't it? I have to agree with Classics Today that the Agnus Dei is particularly impressive and affecting, though I'm not at all convinced that the 'reedy sackbutts' in the Visse version help in this regard. Possibly if they were less prominent. As things are, I find they distract and think the music is more effectively presented a cappella.

They tell us this mass was composed in 1497 or thereabouts. If I hadn't known that, I'd have assumed it was much later. At any rate, if it's true that Lassus revived it 70 years later for a state occasion (in which case it was presumably intended to impress), he must have been confident that Late Renaissance taste would have no difficulty with it.


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## SanAntone

I don't like early sacred music to incorporate instruments, other than the organ, and that only sparingly. It is not appropriate for the period and destroys the texture and ensemble sound, IMO.

However, this recording by the *Tallis Scholars* led by *Peter Phillips* offers a very good recording of the work.

View attachment 143497


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## Mandryka

I can't handle this mass, but I just found this one which seems like it's more my cup of tea


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## Kjetil Heggelund

Alright Brumel, Brummel, Brommel, Brunel, Brunello! I'm glad I looked at this thread and discovered this composer and especially this mass


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## premont

Mandryka said:


> I have a concert recoding of this mass by Cut Circle in Maastricht in 2014 - anyone who wants it can have it, PM me. The music is a bit too flamboyant, extravert and large scale to interest me at the moment, but I'll give it another go.


I have listened to van Nevel's recording, which i own, but I was for some reason somewhat underwhelmed.


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## Allegro Con Brio

Aacck! So sorry I forgot to post the new week's composer...life's been a beast lately...

*September 27 - October 4: FEATURED COMPOSER - Guillaume Dufay (1397-1474)*

_Nominated works: Nuper rosarum flores, Missa Ecca ancilla Domini [science]; Resvellies vous [EdwardBast]_


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## Mandryka

For Réveillés vous, La Reverdie is the only recording I know which uses a low voice, and I very much like the voice. 

For the mass, Dominique Vellard (Ensemble Giles Binchois) takes it rather slowly and presents it liturgically. It loses nothing in grandeur. Their singing is fluid and blended, and the result is beautiful. Pomerium recorded it on LP, but my transfer is so poor I can’t relax with the performance enough to appreciate it. Cut Circle released it recently, an extrovert approach which left me a bit cold last time I heard it. 

For Nuper Rosarum, if I’m remembering right this was a motet written for a celebratory occasion, the opening of of a cathedral. Cantica Symphonium do it with brass and that suits me.


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## RICK RIEKERT

I've been enjoying the vigorously luminous recording of the _Missa Ecce ancilla Domini_ by the Boston Church of the Advent Choir.


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## caracalla

I didn't know this mass, and find it a bit underwhelming compared with either Se la face ay pale or L'homme armé. Nuper rosarum is splendid though; well worthy of the Duomo in Florence. I'm giving the palm to Van Nevel for this one, not least because it's good to hear instruments accompanying to such happy effect. More often that not I wish them away, but not here.


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## Mandryka

caracalla said:


> I didn't know this mass, and find it a bit underwhelming


Yes I've sometimes thought the same. Dominique Vellard's approach is more lyrical, more introspective, less driven forward, and I think it helps.


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## Jacck

I am following the thread and listening to all the composers, although I have not much to contribute in terms of valuable comments. I just finished listening to the Missae Resvellies Vous (Kees Boeke) and found it one of the more enjoyable pieces that I discovered here.


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## Allegro Con Brio

*October 4 - October 11: Anonymous (13th century Spain) - Codex Las Huelgas [submitted by Shosty]
*

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Las_Huelgas_Codex


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## Ariasexta

Organ music is always an necessary lesson for all early music amateurs, it is the starting point of western music. Listening to Sweelinck, Johann Praetorius, Scheidemann`s organ music now. Vocal intabulations for keyboard are one of my favorite genres in music, generally I prefer harpsichord over organ because I need to turn up a little sound volume to feel the whole beauty of organ, but close neighborhood has made it impossible. If you listen to organ music, never shy of listening in louder than usual sound, it deserves.


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## Mandryka

Allegro Con Brio said:


> *October 4 - October 11: Anonymous (13th century Spain) - Codex Las Huelgas [submitted by Shosty]
> *
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Las_Huelgas_Codex


This is a big manuscript, with a lot of simple monophonic music and some music for two voices, maybe more. It was found in a convent with a big choir and for that reason it's often sung by women.

When listening, one very important thing is the selection on the CD. Many CDs for me are OK for the first handful of songs but then outstay their welcome because the music chosen isn't interesting enough in its own right, isn't performed in an interesting way, or is too similar. The way it's presented it can feel as though you're listening to some Christian scouts round the camp fire, with a little school band playing naive interludes.

Top tier recording for me is this one









And these also are not unrewarding







.














The area around Avignon was a real musical hot spot at the time, because of the wealth of the Avignon papacy. Dominique Vellard has produced a second recording of music from the region which is an excellent complement for the one pictured above - this one


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## Allegro Con Brio

*October 11 - October 18: FEATURED COMPOSER - Heinrich Isaac (1450-1517)*

_Nominated work: Missa Virgo Prudentissima [submitted by mmsbls]_

"Isaac was one of the most prolific composers of the time, producing an extraordinarily diverse output, including almost all the forms and styles current at the time; only Lassus, at the end of the 16th century, had a wider overall range. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heinrich_Isaac


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## Allegro Con Brio

Just chiming in to say that I think this Isaac mass is one of the best pieces we've done in this thread. The Karl-Ludwig Nies/Capella Cathedralis München recording is overwhelming.


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## Jacck

yes, it is great mass. It has been known to me and I have propagated it here on TC in the past. Isaac is a wonderful composer


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## Allegro Con Brio

*October 18 - October 25: FEATURED COMPOSER - Johannes Ockeghem (1425-1497 *

_Featured Work: Missa prolationum [submitted by Kjetil Heggelund]_

Ockeghem never fails to please, and the Missa Prolationum always amazes me with its beauty. Nice to have another chance to listen to it this week.


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## SanAntone

There's three recordings on Spotify:

*Musica Ficta* (Naxos)
*The Sound and the Fury* (Fra Bernardo)
*The Hilliard Ensemble* (Erato)

Musica Ficta sounds a bit too bland for my taste.
TSatF is almost exaggerated, although with character.
The Hilliard is pleasant and restrained, but not without enough inflection to avoid tedium. Ultimately may be the one that I will not tire of.

The work itself is varied in texture with sections in two voices alternating with fuller polyphony - which is nice.


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## Simplicissimus

I’m going to go with the Hilliard Ensemble here. This missa is new to me. I like all of Ockeghem I’ve ever heard so this should be a great listening experience this week.


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## Mandryka

Can someone please explain to me what prolation is? What was Ockeghem exploring in this mass?


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## KenOC

Still illegal in some states, I believe.


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## premont

Mandryka said:


> Can someone please explain to me what prolation is? What was Ockeghem exploring in this mass?


I don't know if this helps:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prolation


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## Kjetil Heggelund

I have suspected that prolationum in this mass has to do with some compositional techniques like diminution and augmentation of note values. It is very strictly built up of Ockeghems version of canons, where one voice has the theme in longer note values and sometimes inversion or backwards. It all adds up to what I call "angel music"


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## Jacck

https://www.lexico.com/en/definition/prolation


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## Kjetil Heggelund

I took the liberty to copy from oxfordmusiconline.com...don't tell, hope I'm not in trouble...ah I can "search, view, retrieve, and display portions of restricted content"

...the Missa prolationum may well be the most extraordinary contrapuntal achievement of the 15th century; using all four of Philippe de Vitry's prolations simultaneously, it presents a series of canons whose interval of imitation expands from the unison progressively through to the octave in accordance with a complex combination of verbal instructions, rests and mensural signs. Surprisingly, the result is a graceful, euphonious composition that gives the listener no hint of the intricate technical problems it embodies.

...four levels of note value were given names: modus ('mode' or 'mood') for the long-breve relationship, tempus ('time') for breve-semibreve, prolatio ('prolation') for semibreve-minim. Each of these relationships might be binary or ternary. The various relationships of mode, time and prolation came to be termed 'mensurations'. The four combinations of tempus and prolatio were attributed to Vitry as the 'quatre prolacions'.

It's pretty well composed this mass! The top 2 voices have the same theme in different note values and so do the bottom 2. And on it goes...


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## Ariasexta

I have been thinking, the Pythagorean diatonic system could be a product of human voice temperament, it is why there will always be some irregularities in tuning systems for classical instruments. Human voice in a sense is the perfect musical instrument. 

Marin Mersenne once said that the bass viol is one of the best musical instruments in imitating human voice, I think all musical instruments imitate human voice, including the organs, which could be an imitation of ancient greek choral music. Have you noticed that the organ are the imitation of the choir. Also, originally, the invention of the keyboard instruments by the greeks might have been for the purpose of accompanying the vocal choirs even human voices in other settings, so, there must have been polyphonic music in ancient Greece and we can have much confidence that the keyboard instruments were invented principally for the purpose of playing polyphonic music in accompaniment and imitation of choral music, since nothing plays better the polyphonic music better than keyboard instruments except for choirs of human voices.


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## Ariasexta

The invention of keyboard instruments was the organ, why not untill the middle of 18th century piano came into existence? why people contented with harpsichords and small clavichords, this is a hint. JS Bach noted that pianos play countrapoints badly. So, the organ and the harpsichord were meant to play the counterpoints, which are the byproduct of polyphonic music. So, the ancient greeks must have developped almost mature polyphonic music in their times. But due to war and other reasons, their musical art was lost untill the Medieval age. The invention of the organ is the proof, circumstantial but still worthy of consideration.


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## Mandryka

Missa Prolationem. Is it based on a chant tune? I think it’s one of Ockeghem’s most sensual, most beautiful, achievements.


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## Mandryka

Jacck said:


> https://www.lexico.com/en/definition/prolation


Interesting that it means this _inter alia _


> 2The sending out or emission of the divine Word or Logos.


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## Kjetil Heggelund

Mandryka said:


> Missa Prolationem. Is it based on a chant tune? I think it's one of Ockeghem's most sensual, most beautiful, achievements.


I checked out my favorite music site again..."The small group of masses that were apparently freely composed includes the compositions made famous over the centuries by the recurring discussions of fascinated theorists. Each is unique in its own way and without clear historical precedent; consequently their place in the development of the genre, individually and collectively, is difficult to determine."
...Ockeghem's purpose in writing such a pair of masses (+Missa cuiusvis toni) may have been didactic as well as musical. Taken together, they constitute a practical exemplification of the modal and mensural doctrine of 15th-century theory, a musical counterpart to treatises such as those written by Tinctoris. If the (much more modest) canonic chanson, Prenez sur moi, is seen in a similar light as a thorough-going exercise in solmization, the three compositions cover in a comprehensive and engaging way the fundamentals of music as taught at the time: hexachordal and modal systems, notation, mensural usage and of course composition (Perkins, 1990).

That's what they said about that, no chant.  I find the Missa Prolationum very fascinating and it sounds pure and beautiful.


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## Mandryka

What is strange is how for me Prolationem is immediately attractive but, despite years of trying, I just can't enjoy Cuiusvis Toni.

Re the song Prenez sur moi, don't miss out on the extraordinary a cappella rendition from Clemencic - so complex and fast it's almost chaotic! The poem is very good, it reminds me of Shakespeare's sonnet _The expense of spirit is a waste of shame. _

https://chansonniers.pwch.dk/CH/CH033.html


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## Allegro Con Brio

*October 25 - November 1: FEATURED COMPOSER - Walther von der Vogelweide (1170-1230)*

_Nominated work: Under den linden [submitted by Portamento]_

Wiki tells us that this man was quite the prestigious poet:

_Walther von der Vogelweide (c. 1170 - c. 1230) was a Minnesänger, who composed and performed love-songs and political songs ("Sprüche") in Middle High German. Walther has been described as greatest German lyrical poet before Goethe;[1] his hundred or so love-songs are widely regarded as the pinnacle of Minnesang, the medieval German love lyric, and his innovations breathed new life into the tradition of courtly love. He is also the first political poet writing in German, with a considerable body of encomium, satire, invective, and moralising.

Little is known about his life, but he was a travelling singer who performed for patrons at various princely courts in Germany. He is particularly associated with the Babenberg court in Vienna. Later in life he was given a small fief by the future Holy Roman Emperor, Frederick II.

His work was widely celebrated in his time and in succeeding generations-for the Meistersingers he was a songwriter to emulate-and this is reflected in the exceptional preservation of his work in 32 manuscripts from all parts of the High German area. The largest single collection is found in the Codex Manesse, which includes around 90% of his known songs. However, most Minnesang manuscripts preserve only the texts, and only a handful of Walther's melodies survive.
_

Apparently _Under den Linden_ is a sort of love poem - here is another article with the translation.


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## Mandryka

This is an impressive recording









And here's Andrea von Ramm with one of his most well known songs


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## Allegro Con Brio

*November 1 - November 8: FEATURED COMPOSER - Tomás Luis de Victoria (1548-1611)*

_Nominated Works: Magnificat primi toni [submitted by caracalla] and Officium Defunctorum (Requiem of 1603) [submitted by Art Rock]_

_Victoria is the most significant composer of the Counter-Reformation in Spain, and one of the best-regarded composers of sacred music in the late Renaissance, a genre to which he devoted himself exclusively. Victoria's music reflected his intricate personality, and expressed the passion of Spanish mysticism and religion. Victoria was praised by Padre Martini for his melodic phrases and his joyful inventions. His works have undergone a revival in the 20th century, with numerous recent recordings. Many commentators hear in his music a mystical intensity and direct emotional appeal, qualities considered by some to be lacking in the arguably more rhythmically and harmonically placid music of Palestrina. There are quite a few differences in their compositional styles, such as treatment of melody and quarter-note dissonances._ - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tomás_Luis_de_Victoria


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## caracalla

Sponsored by the Spanish crown, Victoria travelled to Rome as a teenager in 1565 and remained there for over 20 years. It is not known whether he actually studied under Palestrina, but his music was inevitably immersed in the Palestrinian style which dominated the city and was rapidly establishing itself as the Counter-Reformation standard. Nevertheless, the expressiveness of his Roman compositions (or many of them) already strays quite markedly from the classical restraint championed by Palestrina and his closest Italian followers. These High Renaissance ideals, already outmoded in other arts, persisted in music throughout the Mannerist period (and beyond), and for some critics Victoria's greater expressiveness represents a younger generation chafing at the bit and already starting to anticipate the Baroque. Others lay far more emphasis on his Spanish upbringing; the religious fervour of Counter-Reformation Spain being a commonplace among other Europeans of the period, Catholic as well as Protestant.

At any event, the trend towards greater emotional intensity and occasional drama continued following Victoria's return to Spain in 1587, although his production declined. Both these pieces (the Magnificat dates from 1600) belong to this last phase of his career. Victoria composed the Officium defunctorum for the funeral of his patroness, the Dowager Empress Maria (widow of Maximilian II and sister of Philip II) in 1603, and then ceased writing music altogether (at least on a large scale and with a view to publication). His musical activities in his final years were largely confined to serving as organist at the convent in Madrid where Maria had established her household, and he died in relative obscurity.


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## Allegro Con Brio

*November 8 - November 15: FEATURED OPUS - The Eton Choirbook*

Nominated Works:



Mandryka said:


> Robert Fayrfax (1464-1521) - Missa Tecum Principium





Mandryka said:


> Here's a great favourite of mine from the Eton Choirbook, a magnificat by William, Monk of Stratford





science said:


> Whenever it's time to do another work from the Eton Choirbook, Browne's O Maria Salvatoris mater is also very nice.


I've decided to make this a general week for exploring the famous Eton Choirbook. I really enjoyed the piece from Richard Hygons from it that we did earlier so I think this is a good opportunity for some deeper listening.


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## caracalla

This discussion could be livelier. To toss something into the void, I think that while we're very fortunate that the Eton Choirbook has survived, it also manages to rub in how much we're missing from a period that may well have been a match for the Tudor 'Golden Age'. I'm sure that Browne, in particular, would be a very big cheese if more of his music had survived, yet without the EC we would hardly be aware he had even existed. All his pieces are well worth hearing, but I'm particularly taken by the extraordinary 'O regina mundi clara', for lower (at least alto down) voices.


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## Allegro Con Brio

caracalla said:


> This discussion could be livelier.


Unfortunately, it seems as if this thread has dwindled down to practically nothing. Guess I'm just running it to guide my own personal listening goals now As I mentioned earlier in the thread I find it exceedingly difficult to capture my thoughts about early music in writing and I think several others feel that way too.


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## Kjetil Heggelund

I didn't realize we moved on! The thread drowns in all the others. I might have said something about Victoria if I knew it was time, but it is a bit difficult. When I get into late renaissance, I go for Lassus and Victoria, so I probably compare the other composers to them, but it's hard to say why I prefer them to others. I enjoy most early music I hear and I listen in periods of intensity and lately it has been another style of music. (I just had to hear that Mozart piano concerto box with Brautigam a few times...)


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## SanAntone

I am a huge fan of Early Music but often don't contribute to this thread for the following reason:

It is a guided discussion instead of an open-ended thread Re: Early Music. 

I may be alone in this but I prefer open-ended discussions since they offer an opportunity to highlight a variety of examples of Early Music and often promote more interaction among interested people.


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## Grimalkin

Man, really intersting infos, ill definetely download some from here


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## Allegro Con Brio

SanAntone said:


> I am a huge fan of Early Music but often don't contribute to this thread for the following reason:
> 
> It is a guided discussion instead of an open-ended thread Re: Early Music.
> 
> I may be alone in this but I prefer open-ended discussions since they offer an opportunity to highlight a variety of examples of Early Music and often promote more interaction among interested people.


Ah, gotcha. Yeah, the intention here was to provide a place for those who were new to early music to gain knowledge. It's certainly helped me in that regard, and there may be some who are listening along still, but as I mentioned above it's just hard to capture perceptions in words. The thread For Love of Early Music is probably more the open-ended one you're looking for.


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## SanAntone

Allegro Con Brio said:


> Ah, gotcha. Yeah, the intention here was to provide a place for those who were new to early music to gain knowledge. It's certainly helped me in that regard, and there may be some who are listening along still, but as I mentioned above it's just hard to capture perceptions in words. The thread For Love of Early Music is probably more the open-ended one you're looking for.


Okay - didn't know about the other thread. I'll check it out, thanks. I didn't mean to slam this thread - it is useful to focus on specific works. I have been and will continue to check to see what's under discussion.


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## Allegro Con Brio

Wow, the Fayrfax mass is very beautiful and ethereal. Great choice, Mandryka.


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## Allegro Con Brio

*November 15 - November 22: Anonymous (12th century) - Codex Calixtinus*

_Featured Work: Dum esset Salvator in monte [submitted by RICK RIEKERT]_

_[Codex Calixtinus] was intended as an anthology of background detail and advice for pilgrims following the Way of St. James to the shrine of the apostle Saint James the Great, located in the cathedral of Santiago de Compostela, Galicia (Spain). The collection includes sermons, reports of miracles and liturgical texts associated with Saint James, and a set of polyphonic musical pieces. In it are also found descriptions of the route, works of art to be seen along the way, and the customs of the local people._ -https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codex_Calixtinus


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## Jacck

I like it a lot, it is not the first time I heard it. I reminds me of the Roman chants or the templier chants that Mandryka posted earlier.


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## Mandryka

This is one I like






It's taken from this CD









Benjamin Bagby, who was a founder member of Sequentia and figured on that performance, wrote an interesting essay about medieval music today. Well worth a read

https://sequentia.org/writings/medieval_song.html


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## Mandryka

Jacck said:


> I like it a lot, it is not the first time I heard it. I reminds me of the Roman chants or the templier chants that Mandryka posted earlier.


In the recording which that is taken from, Peres wrote a note in which he said the following interesting thing



> This music is not easy to perform, even for specialists. One has to bear in mind information from various different fields: palaeography, metric (of the text end of the music), vocal and ritual aesthetics, the material conditions of performance (positioning of the singers, within the church and in relation to each other) - and also have a clear vision of the different relationships that could be built up between the vocal gesture and what was written down All of these are elements that, in the last analysis, can only be transmitted orally. Oral tradition died out almost completely among Catholics after the great reforms of the early twentieth century. A hundred years later, musicians seeking to revive this music still have difficulty in breaking free from the aesthetic canons established at that time, which brought about a radical change in the rhythmic and vocal approach to church singing. Where rhythm is concerned it was decreed (completely denying the evidence of history and tradi-tion) that plainchant could not have a regular beat, the latter being a sign of materiality, which was incompatible with the spiritual nature of such music. Formulated over a century ago, this sophism is still rife among performers of Gregorian 'chant today. As for the voices, all the vocal gestures that are used to express the interpreter's vitality - timbre, energy in the phona-tion, ornamentation (to bring out the dynamism of the phrase) - were deliberately dismissed from religious singing, suspected of expressing a non-spiritual materiality, conveying the singers' possible pride. Even today most musicians who perform medie-val music are still bound to those conceptions, without realising their origin.
> 
> Our work consisted in reviving the living traditions of religious singing with the aim of establishing the broken link between 'musical archaeology' (i.e. what we know from resear-ch) and the act of singing as it still exists, in Western Europe, in a few isolated places generally little known to the media. For singing is much more than just a combination of words and music. It is above all an act in which sound becomes an expression of memory - memory of a body immersed in the movement of on ancestral gesture.
> 
> Marcel Peres


Hats off to Peres for daring to make it so long.


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## Mandryka

sv.mnxszkcbszfc,klzsnv,klxsd vz,lxsd v


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## GucciManeIsTheNewWebern

How much instrumental early music survives? I've scoured this thread and the other one but I haven't found any, sadly.


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## Jacck

GucciManeIsTheNewWebern said:


> How much instrumental early music survives? I've scoured this thread and the other one but I haven't found any, sadly.


then you havent looked too well
The TC Early Music Listening Group


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## Allegro Con Brio

GucciManeIsTheNewWebern said:


> How much instrumental early music survives? I've scoured this thread and the other one but I haven't found any, sadly.


We did Codex Faenza a couple months ago, which contains some of the earliest recorded keyboard music. De Coincy's Miracles de Nostre-Dame also had some interesting instrumental pieces.


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## Mandryka

There are loads of instrumental transcriptions of vocal music, many of them going back to the renaissance, but that aside these recordings are good to explore













.






.


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## science

Allegro Con Brio said:


> Wow, the Fayrfax mass is very beautiful and ethereal. Great choice, Mandryka.


I had not heard this before.


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## Mandryka

science said:


> I had not heard this before.











Here are my notes about the above CD

The mass _Tecum Principium_ in this recording is unbelievably contemplative. For someone with my tastes, it's just what I want from music, it's a magical piece of work. David Skinner in his essay for the CD says that the mass harks back to Ludford's style, but I feel that it takes off more than anything Ludford ever wrote. But it takes off in an inward direction, inside your soul rather than out towards the sun.

The piece ends with a Marian hymn (or something, Marian anyway -- passion almost). Andrew Carwood wrote a note about it for the CD where he highlights how the text is structured around memory, recollection, contemplation. I've put some of his phrases in bold.



> A NOTE ON Maria plena virtute
> 
> So great was the devotion to Our Lady in pre-Reformation England that many texts were written in her honour, for Mary is the great allegory of the Church. She was present when the Church was born, that is when Christ died. Through her sorrow, as expressed in the Stations of the Cross for example, those in prayer can relate to the pain of the Passion and Crucifixion. She makes understandable the mystery of redemption through Christ's death and focuses human feeling in an accessible way. Votive antiphons produced in early Tudor England had various forms, but the setting Maria plena virtute seems exceptional. It is closer to a *private musing *on the matter of the Passion rather than a formal prayer to the Virgin. It begins in a predictable way with an invocation to Mary, but, after the opening trio and duet, moves swiftly to the Passion narrative, with a *gentle swaying back and forth from narrative and personal interjection* rather like the chorus in a play. Whilst contemplating the forgiveness for which he
> so longs, the penitent is *reminded *of Christ's forgiveness on the Cross and so begins the first reference to St Luke's Gospel (23, w. 39-43). Then the focus is widened as the writer moves to the scene at the foot of the Cross when Christ commits the care of his mother to the beloved disciple (St John 19, w. 25-7). Here again the writer *casts his mind back to* the words from St Mark concerning the son of Man who comes not to be served but to serve (St Mark 10, v. 44). Then a jolt back to the present and St John, however not simply 'I thirst' as in the gospel narrative, but 'Sitio salutem genuis' (I thirst for the salvation of Man), which once again is the cue for *personal musing *before a movement to Matthew (27, v. 46) and back to John (19, v. 30). There is further drawing on scripture at the mention of the sword piercing Mary's heart (St Luke 2, v. 35) and the mission of Joseph of Arimathea and Nicodemus (St John 19, vv. 38-42). The end of the work returns the attention to Mary and a glimmer of light given by the words 'regina caeli' (a Paschaltide reference to the Virgin). It is difficult to ascribe any particular season to votive antiphons, yet Maria plena virtute, with its concen-tration on the gospel passion narratives and its ironic reference to 'regina caeli', seems ideally suited to Holy Week. This is an *intensely personal devotion *to which Fayrfax has responded in a *most personal style*. There is little melismatic writing compared with his contempo-raries; indeed the syllabic word setting in places seems more reminiscent of the Continent than England. 'Ora pro me', *pleads *the writer (not the usual 'ora pro nobis'), to which Fayrfax responds with remarkable melodic and harmonic subtlety and with such care over the word setting, the like of which would not be a regular feature in English church music until later in the century. © 1995 Andrew Carwood


And this interiority is absolutely reflected in the performance style.

This is a revealing and coherent recording.


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## Allegro Con Brio

*22 November - 29 November: FEATURED COMPOSER - Johannes Cornago (c. 1400-after 1475) *

_Nominated Work: Missa de la mapa mundi [submitted by Simplicissimus]_

_Almost nothing is known of Cornago's origins. He may be the Juan Carnago of Calahorra, La Rioja, Spain, who solicited Pope Martin V for prebends in various parishes between 1420 and 1429. It is certain that he is the Cornago, a Franciscan, who graduated from the University of Paris in 1449. Then from 1453 he was in Naples serving in the royal chapel of Alfonso V of Aragon. After the death of Alfonso he continued to serve in the chapel under his son Fernando I of Naples. Cornago was the leading songwriter at the Aragonese court in Naples.[1] Later in 1475 he transferred to the chapel of Fernando the Catholic who had returned to Spain._ - Wikipedia

Looks this is an example of a mass being based off a secular song (similar to the Taverner Western Wynde Mass that we did earlier). Doesn't look like there are any complete recordings on YouTube, but here's the Kyrie and Gloria, albeit from different recordings:


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## Simplicissimus

Cornago, _Missa de la mapa mundi_. This is my cue to get back into this listening group! Let me add a couple of notes about this work from the liner notes of the 1999 Harmonia Mundi album featuring Paul Hillier and His Majestie's Clerkes shown above.

This work is especially notable as being a relatively early example of a polyphonic setting of the Mass Ordinary built over a secular song, placing it in the category with Dufay's _Missa Se la face ay pale_ and only a few other Masses written before the last quarter of the 15th century. As ACB mentions above, Taverner's _Western Wynde Mass_ also belongs to this category (a type of Ars nova and Renaissance music in which I am particularly interested, whence my nomination of both of these selections). The song is known only from this Mass (unlike _The Western Wynde_, which is known independently). In this Mass, it underpins all five movements, sounding in the lowest voice. [Credit to Howard Mayer Brown, musicologist at the University of Chicago, for most of this commentary.]

Cornago was a Spaniard who served in the court of the Kingdom of Naples, Sicily, and Aragon. (Naples and Sicily were Spanish possessions on the Italian peninsula in the 15th century.) There was cross-fertilization of Italian and Spanish culture as a consequence of the geographical proximity of Italian and Spanish territories at this time. Cornago seems to be considered representative of the transition from Ars nova to Renaissance composition, showing both Spanish and Italian characteristics.

I got into the _Missa de la mapa mundi_ by accident through wanting to collect the secular Spanish music from the Codex Columbina that is paired with the _Missa _on the album that I acquired. I have been a fan of the Newberry Consort since its founding in 1982 and attend their performances whenever I can. What happened with this album was that Paul Hillier got together with the Chicago-based ensemble His Majestie's Clerkes and recorded the _Missa_ during same period (November 13-16 1991) at the Madonna de la Strada Chapel at Loyola University - Chicago when the Newberry Consort was recording the secular Spanish music. Both Hillier and the Newberry Consort record for Harmonia Mundi, so the label paired the performances for the CD that was released in 1999.


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## NoCoPilot

Looking for recommendations.

I love Renaissance dance music... especially *instrumental* dance music... especially if it features *hand percussion* and *gnarly period instruments* like shawms, sackbuts, crumhorns, hurdy-gurdys, and the like.

Some of my favorites:


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## NoCoPilot




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## NoCoPilot

Also, on a completely different subject -- since so much of the music posted above has been choral music, what I would call Gregorian Chant or Chant-like music --

My all-time favorite chant ensemble is *The Choir of the Monks of the Abbey of Saint Pierre de Solesmes*, Dom Joseph Gajard O.S.B. dir. They did a number of LPs in the late-'50s/early-'60s, mostly in mono, which have seen only very limited re-release.














No other chant recordings I've heard have approached the contemplative hypnotic unison singing of this ensemble.


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## caracalla

Simplicissimus said:


> There was cross-fertilization of Italian and Spanish culture as a consequence of the geographical proximity of Italian and Spanish territories at this time.


Yes indeed, and it persisted for a good long while. The Aragonese (later Spanish) vice-regal court at Naples was an important musical centre which consistently employed both Spaniards and Italians, with the latter hailing from regions both within and outside the orbit of Spanish rule. One of my most enjoyable exploration projects this year has been the Spanish Baroque, and I've often been struck by the quality of 'fusion' Italo-Spanish music coming out of Naples. By this time, of course, Italy was at the centre (and often forefront) of international musical developments, while Spain was increasingly going its own way, but it's striking just how successfully many Italian composers managed to adapt themselves to the idiosyncratic Spanish taste. Scarlatti and Boccherini had many 17thC forerunners.

Anyway, it's been very interesting to revisit this environment as it stood at an earlier period. After a couple of listens, I can't say I'm hugely taken with the Mass (apart from the Kyrie), but suspect this is a performance rather a composition issue. As yet, we're hardly spoiled for choice, but I will keep an eye out for new takes - the rapid growth of the Spanish EM scene means we probably won't need to wait too long. To remind me, I've downloaded Cornago's rather splendid canción 'Qu'es mi vida, preguntays?' from the Hillier/Springfels disc.


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## Allegro Con Brio

*29 November - 6 December: Anonymous (approx. 12th century) - Codex Buranus (Carmina Burana) [submitted by Jacck]*

This is a huge (almost 4 hours on one YouTube recording) collection of medieval secular songs that probably rewards random sampling more than anything else. Here's an interesting article about the collection and here's Wiki.  Personally I think these poems are pretty fun to read, though I haven't heard any of the original musical settings. They definitely represent a more bawdy, "fun-loving" side of the Middle Ages that isn't often represented. I remember having to translate "O Fortuna" as a Latin student and thinking that it was a fascinating mixture of dark grimness and light satire.


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## NoCoPilot

Allegro Con Brio said:


> *29 November - 6 December: Anonymous (approx. 12th century) - Codex Buranus (Carmina Burana) [submitted by Jacck]*
> 
> This is a huge (almost 4 hours on one YouTube recording) collection of medieval secular songs that probably rewards random sampling more than anything else. Here's an interesting article about the collection and here's Wiki.  Personally I think these poems are pretty fun to read, though I haven't heard any of the original musical settings. They definitely represent a more bawdy, "fun-loving" side of the Middle Ages that isn't often represented. I remember having to translate "O Fortuna" as a Latin student and thinking that it was a fascinating mixture of dark grimness and light satire.


Coincidentally, I just downloaded this yesterday:









There are three further volumes. The music is described as "bawdy songs" but, not understanding Latin I'll have to take their word for it.


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## Mandryka

NoCoPilot said:


> Coincidentally, I just downloaded this yesterday:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There are three further volumes.


I remember particularly enjoying Volume 3 of that old Clemencic set, but they're all quite fun.



NoCoPilot said:


> The music is described as "bawdy songs" but, not understanding Latin I'll have to take their word for it.


Don't forget that there's a sacred component too the manuscript, a sort of church play, rather good. Marcel Peres and Thomas Binkley both recorded it.


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## Mandryka

Allegro Con Brio said:


> * They definitely represent a more bawdy, "fun-loving" side of the Middle Ages that isn't often represented.*


*

Too often IMO. There are tons of drum and fun recordings of medieval music. Steer well clear I say.



Allegro Con Brio said:



Personally I think these poems are pretty fun to read,

Click to expand...

You may want to get hold of a copy of David Parlett's book.*


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## Jacck

I heard the whole Codex Buranus several times over and I am quite familiar with the music now. There are different songs, from typical tavern music to more spiritual songs. You can find translations online, for example

Tempus est iocundum





https://lyricstranslate.com/en/tempus-est-iocundum-codex-buranus-179-weath.html


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## Allegro Con Brio

Mandryka said:


> Too often IMO. There are tons of drum and fun recordings of medieval music. Steer well clear I say.
> 
> I was thinking more of the scholarly stereotype of medieval times as "dark," "pietistic," and "backwards." These Golliard poems are about the exact opposite of that!


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## Allegro Con Brio

*6 December - 13 December: FEATURED COMPOSER - Pérotin (12th century)*

_Nominated Work: Sederunt principes [submitted by Knorf]_

_Perotinus Magnus (fl. c. 1200), (Pérotin the Great, Magister Perotinus) was a composer from around the late 12th century, associated with the Notre Dame school of polyphony in Paris and the ars antiqua musical style. The title Magister Perotinus means that he was licensed to teach. The only information on his life with any degree of certainty comes from an anonymous English student at Notre Dame known as Anonymous IV. It is assumed that he was French and named Pérotin, a diminutive of Peter, but attempts to match him with persons in other documents remain speculative._ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pérotin#Pérotin's_musical_forms_and_style

Perotin makes for interesting listening. It's almost like a sort of super-archaic minimalism; very small changes to the main tune over a consistent foundation. But unlike minimalism, I find it relaxing.


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## Mandryka

Here's a rather different approach from the one in the youtube above. I wonder how they can make a decision about the speed of a thing like this.


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## Allegro Con Brio

We've reached the last week of this group, folks...

*13 December - 20 December: Anonymous (approx. 1400, Spain) - Llibre Vermell de Montserrat [submitted by premont]*

_The purpose of the compilation is made clear by its anonymous compiler himself: "The pilgrims wish to sing and dance while they keep their watch at night in the church of the Blessed Mary of Montserrat, and also in the light of day; and in the church no songs should be sung unless they are chaste and pious, for that reason these songs that appear here have been written. And these should be used modestly, and take care that no one who keeps watch in prayer and contemplation is disturbed."

The songs, therefore, were written for the pilgrims to have something appropriately "chaste and pious" to sing and dance to (round-dance). The songs are in Catalan, in Occitan and in Latin. While the collection was written near the end of the 14th century, much of the music in the collection appears from its style to originate earlier; the motet Imperayritz de la ciutat joyosa contains two different texts that can be sung simultaneously, a style that would have been old-fashioned when the manuscript was compiled.

The songs have many of the characteristics of folk songs as well as hymns. Some are monophonic, while others are set in two to four parts of usually non-imitative polyphony. The monodic songs can be sung as two- or threefold canons. The relative simplicity, the dance rhythm, and the strong melodies of the songs have given the music collected in the Red Book a lasting appeal, and these songs are some of the most frequently recorded pieces of early music.:_ //en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Llibre_Vermell_de_Montserrat

This looks like the only complete YouTube version, performed by Jordi Savall/Hesperion XX:


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## Allegro Con Brio

...And, that's a wrap, folks. Yeah, the discussion in the group was pretty much dead after the first couple months, but at least for me this has been an illuminating experience as I expanded my knowledge of music that I had previously ignored or been indifferent to. Thanks to everyone who has contributed to the thread, and to those who have been listening along even if they haven't commented. For the latter group, I don't blame you - I routinely found it very difficult to put my thoughts about this music into words beyond a simple "I liked/didn't like it."

What were your favorite discoveries from this thread? Besides the more popular ones that I already knew (Josquin, Machaut, Ockeghem, etc.) my favorites were the Lassus _Lagrime di San Pietro_, the Isaac and Fayrfax masses, and some of the other Eton Choirbook pieces. I did find a lot of these works to be more academic curiosities than music I genuinely enjoy (especially the big medieval codices) but I learned much and increased my admiration of pre-Baroque music, and in the long run, that's all that matters, right?

Thanks again, everyone!


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## caracalla

Allegro Con Brio said:


> ...And, that's a wrap, folks.


Thank you kindly for the time you've put into hosting this exercise. I agree it's a pity that early enthusiasm wasn't sustained, but perhaps for many people the idea of early music is more appealing than early music itself.

For myself, I've found it a very useful exercise. At any event, I've managed to push my listening comfort zone back from the Late Renaissance well into the 15th century, even to some extent as far back as Dunstable. He was a figure I hadn't previously cared for at all, but the interpretations of Antony Pitts and Tonus Peregrinus have put paid to that. Although I have a lot of work still to do on 15thC (and even early 16thC) music, this landscape has certainly come into much sharper focus and routes for further exploration seem clear enough.

Unfortunately, I can't claim any great progress with the Middle Ages proper, which I've always found a tough nut. I must have listened to a lot more mediaeval music in recent months than for many years past, but still haven't been able to do more than establish a few more friendly outposts in what remains stubbornly alien territory. It doesn't help that it still seems to be the Wild West in terms of performance practice, and that most existing approaches leave me cold, but at least I've identified a handful of outfits (like La Reverdie and Anonymous 4) whose discographies I'm willing to explore further in due course. A degree of perseverence is in order so long there are gems like the Templars' Salve Regina waiting to be unearthed, but I could wish the rewards thicker on the ground!


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## cheregi

Allegro Con Brio said:


> ...And, that's a wrap, folks.


I am among those who have been really enjoying keeping up with this discussion (at least for the last few pages which have happened since I joined talkclassical), without ever really feeling like I had something worthwhile or new to say. Thanks so much for making this happen! I listened to a lot of recordings I never would have heard about otherwise, and appreciated everyone's differing opinions.


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## inglis

Great to see this thread, 
if late.
Thanks so much all.

Are there any other forum discussions on early music that people know about?

I so love the early polyphony of Notre Dame chant
John


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