# Project: Talk Classical list of most recommended operettas



## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

We have a thread like this and a list for operas, and have been excluding operettas. I though we could nominate operettas and then vote for in each order they should be listed.

Again, I remind new members that all that this and similar exercises want, is to merely establish the operettas that our members *most often* recommend. It doesn't mean these are the *best* or *most important* ones. We're humble people here. We like stuff, and recommend it to others. That's all. Every time we start one of these efforts, someone challenges it on bases that we can't say what is "best" etc. I repeat, we are not saying it. We're just making recommendations based on our members' tastes.

So, I'll start. I don't have a lot of exposure to operettas and don't know many. Of the few I know, I like these:

Johan Strauss II - Die Fledermaus
Johan Strauss II - Der Zigeunerbaron
Offenbach - Orphée aux Enfers
Offenbach - La Vie Parisienne
Offenbach - La Belle Hélène
Lehár - Die Lustige Witwe
Gilbert & Sullivan - The Pirates of Penzance 
Gilbert & Sullivan - H.M.S. Pinafore
Gilbert & Sullivan - The Mikado
Bernstein - Candide
Chabrier - L'Etoile (not strictly speaking an operetta, but for all practical purposes, it is one)
Auber - Haydée ou Le Secret (same case - I'm not sure if we should keep these here, or in our opera lists - I'd appreciate opinions on these last two regarding placement)


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

I really only like Offenbach so I don't think I can comment, Alma


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## HarpsichordConcerto (Jan 1, 2010)

This is not my department (as Handel and Mozart never wrote any operettas, as far as I know  ). The Offenbach pieces listed above I know, and a couple there by Strauss II.

Uncharted waters.


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## Il_Penseroso (Nov 20, 2010)

I like these two from the list above :

Die Fledermaus (Johan Strauss, jr)

and

Die lustige Witwe (Lehár)

There is one more of Lehár but i don't know it's been released on DVD or not :

Zigeunerliebe

I know Offenbach operettas just by reading teh scores and individual parts audio recordings. Has any of his works issued on visual media ?

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Of the other (viennese) operetta composers I could recommend Franz von Suppé (the most famous of his operettas is *Boccaccio* with it's very beautiful Waltz), Karl Joseph Millöcker (became famous mostly with *Der Bettelstudent* and less *Gasparone*) and also Carl Zeller (his most known operetta Der *Vogelhändler* has a beautiful and famous polka Grüss Euch Gott, alle miteinander !) but unfortunately the same problem (as Lehár) is with them and most of their works have remained obscured !


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## Aramis (Mar 1, 2009)

gruff German semi-fat conductor with drunken mug won the competition yesterday


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## Aksel (Dec 3, 2010)

I really only know La vie parisienne and Fledermaus, so I don't think I'll be able to contribute an awful lot.


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## MAuer (Feb 6, 2011)

I'm familiar with the two Strauss operettas listed ("_Die Fledermaus_" and "_Der Zigeunerbaron_"), as well as Lehar's "_Die __lustige Witwe_." I also rather like Lehar's "_Das Land des Lächelns_." But otherwise, I'm only acquainted with individual arias from some of the other German language works, so couldn't really recommend them.


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

Il_Penseroso said:


> II know Offenbach operettas just by reading teh scores and individual parts audio recordings. Has any of his works issued on visual media ?


Yes, all three that I have mentioned exist on commercial DVD (all of them with more than one version, _Orphée aux Enfers_ in three versions), as well as 3 more - _Les Brigands, Barbe Bleu_ (sung in German, released as _Ritter Blaubart_), and _La Grande-Duchesse de Gerolstein_. I also have a bootleg of_ La Périchole_ on DVD, still in my unwatched pile. Offenbach's operettas are quite good and I'd love to see a revival, he wrote almost 100!


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

Given low interest/exposure, it may be hard to rank them. We may just get a list of operettas that are recommended by at least 1 member, and just order them alphabetically. We may also be able to say that some are in a special category or Tier 1 with more recognition, support, and endorsement from our members.

I'd say that at least these three belong in this Tier 1 category (alphabetical order by composer):

Johan Strauss II - Die Fledermaus
Lehár - Die Lustige Witwe
Offenbach - Orphée aux Enfers

And then we'd list the others just by alphabetical order (by composer):

Auber - Haydée ou Le Secret 
Bernstein - Candide
Carl Zeller - Der Vogelhändler 
Chabrier - L'Étoile
Franz von Suppé - Boccaccio
Gilbert & Sullivan - H.M.S. Pinafore
Gilbert & Sullivan - The Mikado
Gilbert & Sullivan - The Pirates of Penzance 
Johan Strauss II - Der Zigeunerbaron
Karl Joseph Millöcker - Der Bettelstudent
Karl Joseph Millöcker - Gasparone
Lehár - Das Land des Lächelns
Lehár - Zigeunerliebe
Offenbach - La Vie Parisienne
Offenbach - La Belle Hélène

What do you guys think?
Any more suggestions for Tier 1?
Any others to include in the list of additional operettas beyond Tier 1?

Again, let's not just nominate the ones we know exist, but rather the ones we really do recommend. I don't want to merely compose a list of operettas, there's Wikipedia for this. I want a list of those operettas that at least one of our members considers to be good/pleasant/entertaining - whatever the reason.

@ Il Penseroso - I'm not just focusing on those that have been released on visual media. Just like our list of top 100 operas, during the voting we did consider operas that only had been released on audio media. This is not yet a list of most recommended DVDs/blu-rays for operettas, but merely a list of good operettas that are recommended by our members. So, CD-only is fair game. Do you have any more to add, given this piece of information?


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## Il_Penseroso (Nov 20, 2010)

Almaviva said:


> @ Il Penseroso - I'm not just focusing on those that have been released on visual media. Just like our list of top 100 operas, during the voting we did consider operas that only had been released on audio media. This is not yet a list of most recommended DVDs/blu-rays for operettas, but merely a list of good operettas that are recommended by our members. So, CD-only is fair game. Do you have any more to add, given this piece of information?


Ok ! then there are some more by Suppé and Millöcker, not as famous as those I named before but at least well known to operetta lovers (of course in Vienna they are better known !) :

Leichte Kavallerie (Suppé)

Fatinitza (Suppé)

Dichter und Bauer (Suppé)

Die schöne Galathee (Suppé)

note : Everyone is familiar with the overture Leichte Kavallerie, infact his better known overtures all have been recorded by H.V.Karajan and others ...

Der arme Jonathan (Millöcker)

Gräfin Dubarry (Millöcker)

another composer is Oscar Straus (no double S), contemporary with Lehár, was one of the last composers of the vienna opereatta generation. His most famous is *Der tapfere Soldat (The Cholatate Soldier)* based on a play by George Bernard Shaw. I have only listened to some fragments of this but it's absolutely a beautiful operetta.


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## Il_Penseroso (Nov 20, 2010)

@ Almaviva, I don't know but guess Anna Netrebko never participated in any of these opereattas (you know an opereatta could be a good circumstance for showing that especiall asset for Netrebko ! ) So do you really want to go on with this thread ?


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

Excellent idea, Il Penseroso! Since I already have a channel with Anna's staff (given the email exchange about the La Bellissima moniker) this is what I need to suggest!! I'm sure Anna is booked for the next four years or so, but she should consider doing an operetta at some point (a boob-a-licious one!).


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

Here is what we have so far:

Tier 1, widely endorsed operettas:

Johan Strauss II - Die Fledermaus
Lehár - Die Lustige Witwe
Offenbach - Orphée aux Enfers

Other recommended operettas - by alphabetical order (by composer):

Auber - Haydée ou Le Secret 
Bernstein - Candide
Carl Zeller - Der Vogelhändler 
Chabrier - L'Étoile
Franz von Suppé - Boccaccio
Gilbert & Sullivan - H.M.S. Pinafore
Gilbert & Sullivan - The Mikado
Gilbert & Sullivan - The Pirates of Penzance 
Johan Strauss II - Der Zigeunerbaron
Lehár - Das Land des Lächelns
Lehár - Der Graf von Luxemburg
Lehár - Zigeunerliebe
Millöcker - Der arme Jonathan
Millöcker - Der Bettelstudent
Millöcker - Gasparone
Millöcker - Gräfin Dubarry
Offenbach - La Belle Hélène
Offenbach - La Grande-Duchesse de Gérolstein
Offenbach - La Vie Parisienne
Straus, Oscar - Der tapfere Soldat
Suppé - Dichter und Bauer
Suppé - Die schöne Galathee
Suppé - Fatinitza
Suppé - Leichte Kavallerie

If you guys want to add to the list (please do), please copy and paste the list into your post and insert the new one by alphabetical order starting with the composer's name, it will make it easier for me, thanks.


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## sospiro (Apr 3, 2010)

I don't know enough to feel qualified to comment.


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

Offenbach - La Grande Duchesse de Gérolstein. Very funny.

There is also Lehár - Der Graf von Luxemburg which I've seen.


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## Chi_townPhilly (Apr 21, 2007)

_Boccaccio_ is a canny addition, but I'm afraid we stumbled a bit with _Poet & Peasant_, which is not operetta music but incidental music to a stage-play [c.f.: Grieg's _Peer Gynt_].

If we read differently on 'Wikipedia,' then Wikipedia is in error (again) and needs correction.

Let me add Romberg's "The Student Prince" and Victor Herbert's "Naughty Marietta" to our roster.


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## AmericanGesamtkunstwerk (May 9, 2011)

Schönberg & Boublil - Les Miserables
Schönberg & Boublil - Miss Saigon

terrible annoying commercial-broadway-musicaltheater-whathaveyou aside, I find the work here The Pinnacle of Vocally-Performed Narrative (besides Wagner of course, although this stuff is much more accessible/effective for the lamen than anything known as straight-up "Opera"). Not sure if this is technically an "operetta" but I figured close enough, if the doors are willing to be open. 
Also: more orchestrators and librettists than the core pair deserve credit here. Herbert Kretzmer is responsible for the exceptional english version of Les Miserables, there was also the guy who did the instrumentation (I believe an American conductor) though I forget the name. Saigon would have further credits as well.


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

AmericanGesamtkunstwerk said:


> Schönberg & Boublil - Les Miserables
> Schönberg & Boublil - Miss Saigon
> 
> terrible annoying commercial-broadway-musicaltheater-whathaveyou aside, I find the work here The Pinnacle of Vocally-Performed Narrative (besides Wagner of course, although this stuff is much more accessible/effective for the lamen than anything known as straight-up "Opera"). Not sure if this is technically an "operetta" but I figured close enough, if the doors are willing to be open.
> Also: more orchestrators and librettists than the core pair deserve credit here. Herbert Kretzmer is responsible for the exceptional english version of Les Miserables, there was also the guy who did the instrumentation (I believe an American conductor) though I forget the name. Saigon would have further credits as well.


No. Musicals are not operettas. To be an operetta you gotta have operatic singing. These musicals don't have it. If you want to open a thread for musicals in the non-classical music subforum, be my guest, but here we're talking classical music. Musicals are not classical music.

Please don't see this as any kind of elitism. It's just a matter of keeping things where they belong. This website does have a subforum for non-classical music, therefore, discussing musicals here in the Opera subforum is off-topic. I personally generally don't like musicals as a rule (with exceptions) but I have nothing against those who do; but they have no place in an opera/operetta forum.


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

Tier 1, widely endorsed operettas:

Johan Strauss II - Die Fledermaus
Lehár - Die Lustige Witwe
Offenbach - Orphée aux Enfers

Other recommended operettas - by alphabetical order (by composer):

Auber - Haydée ou Le Secret 
Bernstein - Candide
Carl Zeller - Der Vogelhändler 
Chabrier - L'Étoile
Franz von Suppé - Boccaccio
Gilbert & Sullivan - H.M.S. Pinafore
Gilbert & Sullivan - The Mikado
Gilbert & Sullivan - The Pirates of Penzance 
Herbert - Naughty Marietta
Johan Strauss II - Der Zigeunerbaron
Kálmán - Die Csárdásfürstin
Lehár - Das Land des Lächelns
Lehár - Der Graf von Luxemburg
Lehár - Zigeunerliebe
Millöcker - Der arme Jonathan
Millöcker - Der Bettelstudent
Millöcker - Gasparone
Millöcker - Gräfin Dubarry
Offenbach - La Belle Hélène
Offenbach - La Grande-Duchesse de Gérolstein
Offenbach - La Vie Parisienne
Romberg - The Student Prince
Straus, Oscar - Der tapfere Soldat
Suppé - Die schöne Galathee
Suppé - Fatinitza
Suppé - Leichte Kavallerie

If you guys want to add to the list (please do), please copy and paste the list into your post and insert the new one by alphabetical order starting with the composer's name, it will make it easier for me, thanks.


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## Il_Penseroso (Nov 20, 2010)

Chi_townPhilly said:


> _Boccaccio_ is a canny addition, but I'm afraid we stumbled a bit with _Poet & Peasant_, which is not operetta music but incidental music to a stage-play [c.f.: Grieg's _Peer Gynt_].
> 
> If we read differently on 'Wikipedia,' then Wikipedia is in error (again) and needs correction.


No, you're right. *Dichter und Bauer* (as you mentioned) is basically not an operetta but a musical comedy (I listed it because i was pointing at time to Suppe's most favorite - and recorded -overtures) but it's sometimes has been described as an 3 acts operetta. See here for example. So I don't know we can keep it in the list or remove it.


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

I don't know what to say about Dichter und Bauer which I don't know; like I said my exposure to the subgenre is small and I'll defer to you guys who seem to be quite the expert in the matter. Just tell me what your final conclusion is and we'll keep it in the list or remove it, whatever you say.


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## Il_Penseroso (Nov 20, 2010)

So, since I don't think we'll have any other recommender for "Dichter und Bauer" and there are more examples of Suppe's works, then better to remove it whether it's been called an operetta or a musical comedy. 
It's one of his early works which I wonder if any complete recording has been made yet and I've only heard the overture.


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

Il_Penseroso said:


> So, since I don't think we'll have any other recommender for "Dichter und Bauer" and there are more examples of Suppe's works, then better to remove it whether it's been called an operetta or a musical comedy.
> It's one of his early works which I wonder if any complete recording has been made yet and I've only heard the overture.


OK, done, thanks.


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## rgz (Mar 6, 2010)

Il_Penseroso said:


> I know Offenbach operettas just by reading teh scores and individual parts audio recordings. Has any of his works issued on visual media ?


I can not strongly enough recommend the Natalie Dessay "Orphee aux Enfers". In fact, I'll go so far as to say that it's my "desert island opera disc" -- if I could take only one dvd (and a solar powered dvd player) to a desert island, that'd be the one -- never mind the fact that it's not technically an opera! 
It has perhaps Ms. Dessay's funniest performance ever. Set design / stage direction by Laurent Pelly and it's absolutely fantastic. One knockout number after another -- literally and I mean literally every song is great. If it has any weaknesses it's that it's an all-French cast of mostly unknown singers, with only Dessay and her husband, Laurent Naouri, being of international quality. But honestly, they all acquit themselves very well, with Pluto's somewhat reedy voice (and distracting height; when Natalie Dessay towers over you, you're *tiny*) and the mediocre subtitles (a pet peeve of mine -- when the translator doesn't make an effort to preserve rhyme or meter I feel like the translation loses a lot, but I'm nitpicky about such things) being the only drawbacks.

I truly can't imagine anyone with even the slightest interest in the operatic form not cherishing this dvd.


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

rgz said:


> I can not strongly enough recommend the Natalie Dessay "Orphee aux Enfers". In fact, I'll go so far as to say that it's my "desert island opera disc" -- if I could take only one dvd (and a solar powered dvd player) to a desert island, that'd be the one -- never mind the fact that it's not technically an opera!
> It has perhaps Ms. Dessay's funniest performance ever. Set design / stage direction by Laurent Pelly and it's absolutely fantastic. One knockout number after another -- literally and I mean literally every song is great. If it has any weaknesses it's that it's an all-French cast of mostly unknown singers, with only Dessay and her husband, Laurent Naouri, being of international quality. But honestly, they all acquit themselves very well, with Pluto's somewhat reedy voice (and distracting height; when Natalie Dessay towers over you, you're *tiny*) and the mediocre subtitles (a pet peeve of mine -- when the translator doesn't make an effort to preserve rhyme or meter I feel like the translation loses a lot, but I'm nitpicky about such things) being the only drawbacks.
> 
> I truly can't imagine anyone with even the slightest interest in the operatic form not cherishing this dvd.


Yes, it is indeed a great DVD.


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

Should we add Kalman, The Gypsy Princess?


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## Il_Penseroso (Nov 20, 2010)

Almaviva said:


> Should we add Kalman, The Gypsy Princess?


I don't know about this to make any recommendation (but eager to know more about). I searched in google and found something about this hungarian composer. 
As I can see "The Gypsy Princess" is also released on CD. DVD as well?


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

Yes, it is on DVD. I've just rented it from Netflix, will be watching it today and will post a review.

Edit - I'm watching it. It's pleasant and worthy of inclusion in the list. I have edited the list above to include it. I've posted my review in the Opera on DVD and Blu-ray subforum, Operettas thread.


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## TxllxT (Mar 2, 2011)

Is Albert Lortzing 1801-1851 (Zar und Zimmerman, Der Wildschütz, Undine, Der Waffenschmied, Die Opernprobe) to be counted as an operette composer or a composer of comical operas?


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

I don't know...
This thread and the other one about notable operas is making me feel very ignorant...


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## Aramis (Mar 1, 2009)

Almaviva said:


> I don't know...
> This thread and the other one about notable operas is making me feel very ignorant...


Nothing wrong with being ignorant when it comes to operettas, it's like having no knowledge about discography of Akon.


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## Il_Penseroso (Nov 20, 2010)

TxllxT said:


> Is Albert Lortzing 1801-1851 (Zar und Zimmerman, Der Wildschütz, Undine, Der Waffenschmied, Die Opernprobe) to be counted as an operette composer or a composer of comical operas?


Does this help (from Wikipedia) ?

He is considered to be the main representative of the German Spieloper, a form similar to the French opéra comique, which grew out of the Singspiel.

Therfore they must be called operas, not operettas. I addition, I have a vocal score of Lortzing's Zar und Zimmerman and it's under the title "Oper in 3 Akten" (Opera in 3 Acts).


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## Il_Penseroso (Nov 20, 2010)

I think we should also find the best operetta title for that Netrebko's particular body-show, which would please Alma so much ! We'll offer the Bellissima (so-called by Alma, not me !) to sing and act it. So guys please help !


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

Almaviva said:


> I don't know...
> This thread and the other one about notable operas is making me feel very ignorant...


I just see the whole thing as more ways to part me and and my money.


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

mamascarlatti said:


> I just see the whole thing as more ways to part me and and my money.


Absolutely. I'm already thinking, how do I call myself an opera lover and there are so many notable ones that I don't know? Gotta buy them. Buy, buy, buy!

It's horrible.


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## Il_Penseroso (Nov 20, 2010)

Widely endorsed operettas:

Johan Strauss II - Die Fledermaus
Lehár - Die Lustige Witwe
Offenbach - Orphée aux Enfers

Other recommended operettas - by alphabetical order (by composer):

Auber - Haydée ou Le Secret 
Bernstein - Candide
Chabrier - L'Étoile
Gilbert & Sullivan - H.M.S. Pinafore
Gilbert & Sullivan - The Mikado
Gilbert & Sullivan - The Pirates of Penzance 
Herbert - Naughty Marietta
Kálmán - Die Csárdásfürstin
Lehár - Das Land des Lächelns
Lehár - Der Graf von Luxemburg
Lehár - Zigeunerliebe
*Messager - Monsieur Beaucaire*
*Messager - Véronique*
Millöcker - Der arme Jonathan
Millöcker - Der Bettelstudent
Millöcker - Gasparone
Millöcker - Gräfin Dubarry
Offenbach - La Belle Hélène
Offenbach - La Grande-Duchesse de Gérolstein
Offenbach - La Vie Parisienne
Romberg - The Student Prince
Straus, Oscar - Der tapfere Soldat
Strauss (Johann Strauss II) - Der Zigeunerbaron
Suppé - Boccaccio
Suppé - Die schöne Galathee
Suppé - Fatinitza
Suppé - Leichte Kavallerie
Zeller - Der Vogelhändler

These two beautiful works by french composer André Messager are sometimes described also as 'opéra comique', but basically they are 'opérettes'. There is another famous operetta by Messager called Les p'tites Michu, but I don't know it.

P.S. I'm sorry Alma, but I had to edit the list one more time, due to its last names disorder


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## Elgarian (Jul 30, 2008)

This is not my thing at all, so I have nothing to contribute, and yet, and yet .... is Reynaldo Hahn's _Ciboulette_ being overlooked?










Thing is: Hahn wrote a few utterly lovely songs, and on that basis (at a time when I was saturating myself in French opera, and beguiled by Hahn's songs) I bought a copy of the _Ciboulette_ recording above. But it came, disappointingly, without a libretto/translation and I never made any real headway with it. I think I only listened half-heartedly to the first act and moved on. But for all I know, it might be worthy of inclusion in the list. Does anyone else know it?


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

It's been sitting on my list of French operas to buy, but no, I don't know it yet. But if you think it is worth including, go ahead and do it. It won't hurt your passing reputation since you only half-saw it.


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## Elgarian (Jul 30, 2008)

Almaviva said:


> It's been sitting on my list of French operas to buy, but no, I don't know it yet. But if you think it is worth including, go ahead and do it. I won't hurt your passing reputation since you only half-saw it.


I'll see if I can find it and maybe give it another spin.

*STOP PRESS*
Guess what? EMI have actually put a pdf of the _Ciboulette_ libretto (with translation) on their website. This wasn't there when last I searched for it (ages ago) but it is now. Click on the link on this web page.


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

Great, thanks, Alan. I got from the same site the libretto for another one that I just bought and doesn't have it, Fra Diavolo. I was looking for the libretto and couldn't find it anywhere, never thought of looking for it on the EMI site, and it is there.


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## Elgarian (Jul 30, 2008)

I took _Ciboulette_ out into the garden with me this afternoon, with my freshly printed libretto. Found a spot of shade by the magnolia, and settled with a pot of coffee and a comfy chair.

Too comfy, alas. I fell asleep halfway through and woke when the music stopped at the end of CD1. It seems very pretty, and exceedingly French. There are some nice tunes, nicely sung. The plot is a bit of a nothing-much, but OK. If this is what most operettas are like, then I guess it needs adding to the list, but my preference I think is to absorb Hahn in small doses (individual songs) rather than at big stretches like this. My beef is basically with the whole concept of operetta, I think, rather than Hahn's particular implementation of the genre. It's like eating candy floss: nice and fluffy and sweet, but nothing to chew on; after a bit you just long for a big lump of chocolate to get your teeth into.


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

Elgarian said:


> I took _Ciboulette_ out into the garden with me this afternoon, with my freshly printed libretto. Found a spot of shade by the magnolia, and settled with a pot of coffee and a comfy chair.
> 
> Too comfy, alas. I fell asleep halfway through and woke when the music stopped at the end of CD1. It seems very pretty, and exceedingly French. There are some nice tunes, nicely sung. The plot is a bit of a nothing-much, but OK. If this is what most operettas are like, then I guess it needs adding to the list, but my preference I think is to absorb Hahn in small doses (individual songs) rather than at big stretches like this. My beef is basically with the whole concept of operetta, I think, rather than Hahn's particular implementation of the genre. It's like eating candy floss: nice and fluffy and sweet, but nothing to chew on; after a bit you just long for a big lump of chocolate to get your teeth into.


Yeah I agree with you, I'm not the biggest fan of the subgenre. I do believe that the three that we have listed as deserving a special status are all three very substantial and very pleasant and beautiful (Die Fledermaus, Die Lustige Witwe, and Orphée aux Enfers). These three are as good as many operas in my opinion. I like a few others that are on the list, but not as much as these three. About many others, however, I'm not as sure. Granted that I don't know that many operettas and maybe some of the others suggested by other members are just as good as the top three, but in general, I'm not greatly entertained by operettas.

Still, since we're trying to establish this site as a reference for opera, I thought we should still list the most recommended operettas (or may be we should say, the least bad operettas:devil.


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

Most current list:

Widely endorsed operettas:

Johan Strauss II - Die Fledermaus
Lehár - Die Lustige Witwe
Offenbach - Orphée aux Enfers

Other recommended operettas - by alphabetical order (by composer):

Auber - Haydée ou Le Secret 
Bernstein - Candide
Chabrier - L'Étoile
Gilbert & Sullivan - H.M.S. Pinafore
Gilbert & Sullivan - The Mikado
Gilbert & Sullivan - The Pirates of Penzance 
Hahn - Ciboulette
Herbert - Naughty Marietta
Kálmán - Die Csárdásfürstin
Lehár - Das Land des Lächelns
Lehár - Der Graf von Luxemburg
Lehár - Zigeunerliebe
Messager - Monsieur Beaucaire
Messager - Véronique
Millöcker - Der arme Jonathan
Millöcker - Der Bettelstudent
Millöcker - Gasparone
Millöcker - Gräfin Dubarry
Offenbach - La Belle Hélène
Offenbach - La Grande-Duchesse de Gérolstein
Offenbach - La Vie Parisienne
Romberg - The Student Prince
Straus, Oscar - Der tapfere Soldat
Strauss (Johann Strauss II) - Der Zigeunerbaron
Suppé - Boccaccio
Suppé - Die schöne Galathee
Suppé - Fatinitza
Suppé - Leichte Kavallerie
Zeller - Der Vogelhändler


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## Il_Penseroso (Nov 20, 2010)

Elgarian said:


> This is not my thing at all, so I have nothing to contribute, and yet, and yet .... is Reynaldo Hahn's _Ciboulette_ being overlooked?


I don't know this one you bought but he wrote a ballet music 'Le Dieu Bleu' for Diaghilev (danced by Nijinsky) which I so eagerly want to know and listen. Stravinsky mentioned it in his autobiography ... but after all Stravinsky admired all french 'opéra comique' composres.



Almaviva said:


> I'm not the biggest fan of the subgenre.
> ...
> Granted that I don't know that many operettas and maybe some of the others suggested by other members are just as good as the top three, but *in general, I'm not greatly entertained by operettas.*


Aaaah ! A final overview by Alma ! My dear, then why did you put me into a lot of trouble ? :lol:

Seriously, why most of the members here are in common on the stuff "We don't like the sub-genre" ? What's wrong with operettas ?



> I like a few others that are on the list, but not as much as these three. About many others, however, I'm not as sure.


Me too ! :lol:



> I thought we should still list the most recommended operettas (or may be we should say, the least bad operettas:devil.


:lol:


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

I don't like many of them because they lack the punch of true operas.
But some are fine.


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

Most current list:

Widely endorsed operettas:

Johan Strauss II - Die Fledermaus
Lehár - Die Lustige Witwe
Offenbach - Orphée aux Enfers

Other recommended operettas - by alphabetical order (by composer):

Auber - Haydée ou Le Secret 
*Auber - Fra Diavolo*
Bernstein - Candide
Chabrier - L'Étoile
Gilbert & Sullivan - H.M.S. Pinafore
Gilbert & Sullivan - The Mikado
Gilbert & Sullivan - The Pirates of Penzance 
Hahn - Ciboulette
Herbert - Naughty Marietta
Kálmán - Die Csárdásfürstin
Lehár - Das Land des Lächelns
Lehár - Der Graf von Luxemburg
Lehár - Zigeunerliebe
Messager - Monsieur Beaucaire
Messager - Véronique
Millöcker - Der arme Jonathan
Millöcker - Der Bettelstudent
Millöcker - Gasparone
Millöcker - Gräfin Dubarry
Offenbach - La Belle Hélène
Offenbach - La Grande-Duchesse de Gérolstein
Offenbach - La Vie Parisienne
*Offenbach - La Périchole*
*Offenbach - Barbe-Bleue*
Romberg - The Student Prince
Straus, Oscar - Der tapfere Soldat
Strauss (Johann Strauss II) - Der Zigeunerbaron
*Strauss (Johann Strauss II) - Simplicius*
Suppé - Boccaccio
Suppé - Die schöne Galathee
Suppé - Fatinitza
Suppé - Leichte Kavallerie
Zeller - Der Vogelhändler

I'm adding a couple more that I've seen ever since and weren't included before.


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## Elgarian (Jul 30, 2008)

At a secondhand bookfair at the weekend, I found this 2cd set of Chabrier's _L'Etoile_:










It only cost £5, and I liked the title, so I bought it, and this means I now own two operettas!! (The other is Hahn's _Ciboulette_.) Ooh!

Trouble is, now I ought to listen to it, didn't I? Shame - it'd be _so_ much easier if we could just buy them when they're bargains, and not have the bother of having to listen to them. Can't we put something in the rules to fix that?


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## sospiro (Apr 3, 2010)

Elgarian said:


> At a secondhand bookfair at the weekend, I found this 2cd set of Chabrier's _L'Etoile_:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You often find real bargains, you must have specially tuned antennae.



Elgarian said:


> Trouble is, now I ought to listen to it, didn't I? Shame - it'd be _so_ much easier if we could just buy them when they're bargains, and not have the bother of having to listen to them. Can't we put something in the rules to fix that?


Nah. Just start an un-listened-to pile.


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## Elgarian (Jul 30, 2008)

sospiro said:


> You often find real bargains, you must have specially tuned antennae.


Alas, neither supertuned nor supernatural: it's just that the dealer who sells the cheap opera sets turns up at different local bookfairs. Not possible to miss, actually!


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## Gualtier Malde (Nov 14, 2010)

Almaviva said:


> I don't like many of them because they lack the punch of true operas.


I know, I shouldn't take it personally, but this hurts me a little as someone who has a very soft spot for this music. Of course, operetta should be judged (if at all) on its own terms.

For example, it also wouldn't be fair to say that Wagner's Ring is pretentious garbage because the waltzes don't sparkle, the jokes aren't funny, and there is all this gratuitous violence.


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## amfortas (Jun 15, 2011)

Gualtier Malde said:


> For example, it also wouldn't be fair to say that Wagner's Ring is pretentious garbage because the waltzes don't sparkle, the jokes aren't funny, and there is all this gratuitous violence.


Try waltzing one time to Brünnhilde's Immolation, and then *tell* me it doesn't sparkle!


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## Gualtier Malde (Nov 14, 2010)

amfortas said:


> Try waltzing one time to Brünnhilde's Immolation, and then *tell* me it doesn't sparkle!


Well, it doesn't (not even close), but maybe that's a linguistic problem [sparkle = ... ?]. Also, I was trying to make a rather different point in my original post.


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## Aramis (Mar 1, 2009)

Gualtier Malde said:


> For example, it also wouldn't be fair to say that Wagner's Ring is pretentious garbage because the waltzes don't sparkle, the jokes aren't funny, and there is all this gratuitous violence.


I've missed something, where are ANY waltzes in Ring cycle?

Hmm... hmmm... now I recall, there was that popular excerpt called "Fafner's waltz", it went like this:

Monsieur Fafner, that's me,
my lovely ballroom bride,
let's go, let's dance, you'll see,
I'll soon conquer your pride!

Tra la la, li la li la la,
Through the ballroom, 
To my carriage!
Da ri la la li la la la!
To the bed, 
but not the marriage,
Tra li la di da!


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## amfortas (Jun 15, 2011)

amfortas said:


> Try waltzing one time to Brünnhilde's Immolation, and then *tell* me it doesn't sparkle!





Gualtier Malde said:


> Well, it doesn't (not even close), but maybe that's a linguistic problem [sparkle = ... ?]. Also, I was trying to make a rather different point in my original post.


I must remember to get my "wink" button fixed.


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## MattExcell (Jun 15, 2011)

Digging deep into the archives on this one, but I'm currently listening to bits of J. Straus II's "Eine Nacht in Venedig" and there's a lot of lovely music in it. It seems to be widely endorsed elsewhere as being his third best after Fledermaus and Zigeunerbaron.


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## huntsman (Jan 28, 2013)

Don't shoot me...

What about Lloyd-Webber? Would Phantom be considered an operetta?


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## MAuer (Feb 6, 2011)

MattExcell said:


> Digging deep into the archives on this one, but I'm currently listening to bits of J. Straus II's "Eine Nacht in Venedig" and there's a lot of lovely music in it. It seems to be widely endorsed elsewhere as being his third best after Fledermaus and Zigeunerbaron.


I'm only familiar with Caramello's aria,






but it sounds as though this operetta may be worth seeking out.


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

huntsman said:


> Don't shoot me...
> 
> What about Lloyd-Webber? Would Phantom be considered an operetta?


No, it's most definitely a musical, except for the bits he stole from Puccini's La Fanciulla del West.

and.....


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## Hoffmann (Jun 10, 2013)

Is that a Roy Liechtenstein? If so, not one that I know.


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

huntsman said:


> Don't shoot me...
> 
> What about Lloyd-Webber? Would Phantom be considered an operetta?


Not for one moment !


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## huntsman (Jan 28, 2013)

moody said:


> Not for one moment !


Do I detect doubt in your reply..?

Heh heh! Please clarify why it's a musical and not anything else?


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

One big difference is that phantom and other musicals use sophisticated amplification.

Opera is singing and orchestra unamplified, which leads to a very different style.


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## huntsman (Jan 28, 2013)

Makes sense...

So if it were performed sans power, viz 'unplugged' it would be an Opera? Operetta?

From Merriam Webster:
Definition of OPERA*1*
*:* a drama set to music and made up of vocal pieces with orchestral accompaniment and orchestral overtures and interludes;


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

huntsman said:


> Makes sense...
> 
> So if it were performed sans power, viz 'unplugged' it would be an Opera? Operetta?
> 
> ...


It's not an opera,never was an opera,but if you want to call it it an opera, an operetta or a hole in the wall go right ahead.


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

huntsman said:


> . . .
> I posed the question so I can learn something.


You were told that the wretched thing was neither opera nor operetta and whether you are knowledgeable about classical music or not I would have thought everyone knows that the man writes musicals---and I mean everyone.
Can you seriously tell me that you did not know this was a musical,have you looked at Amazon or any other recording supplier to see where Phantom is listed.
You were told by Mama Scarlatti who is well experienced in opera and who you can plainly see is a super-moderator here that musicals are done in a different style from opera. Have you never seen or seen parts of an opera or a musical, of course you have I'm sure.
One can only wonder why you persist with this line of "enquiry",got an agenda have you ?


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

Well, that escalated quickly while I was asleep.

Apart from the amplification, which radically affects the soundscape and means that singers can perform every night, dance while they are singing and so on (ask de Niese and Dessay how difficult it is to do that when unamplified), as they had to in Giulio Cesare

Defining the difference in words between an opera and a musical is difficult, although I have to say that I can hear the difference immediately because when I hear a musical I have an immediate urge to switch it off. I find most musicals have what sounds to my ear much simpler music, and in the case of Lloyd Weber intolerably schmaltzy. Cats and Phantom, shudder.

As soon as you make a generalisation about differences, we can find something to contradict it.

Opera consists of arias and recitative, or are through composed and musicals have spoken dialogue? Sorry, Magic flute and other singspiels have spoken dialogue, and Les Mis is through-composed.

Operas are tragic and musicals light-hearted - umm, no Les Mis versus L'Elisir D'Amore.

It boils down in my opinion to the difference in sound between the singing and the music. Just listen to opera singers having a go at musicals (eg Te Kanawa and Carreras having a go at West Side Story) and you'll hear they are different beasts.


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## tyroneslothrop (Sep 5, 2012)

mamascarlatti said:


> It boils down in my opinion to the difference in sound between the singing and the music. Just listen to opera singers having a go at musicals (eg Te Kanawa and Carreras having a go at West Side Story) and you'll hear they are different beasts.


Coincidentally, I was strolling after meeting and having lunch with Hoffmann today and we were chatting about exactly Te Kanawa and Carreras in West Side Story not 2 hours ago!

Here are some video recordings from _"The Making of West Side Story - Leonard Bernstein"_ (1985):









and my favorite of the "I Feel Pretty" song by DiDonato:


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## tyroneslothrop (Sep 5, 2012)

_(continued)_

Here are some recordings of the same two pieces from different professional Broadway singers (but not opera):




From 4:58 - 8:42:





When one listens to these side by side, the differences really hit home. _(That's why I personally never like Broadway / West End style musical theatre.)_


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## Hoffmann (Jun 10, 2013)

It's been a long time since I've listened to a musical (I keep switching them off..), so my memory may not be clear on this, but a significant difference seems to be that musicals do not require voices with much range - no chance of having to listen to a singer hit those unfamiliar high notes - because there are none. All middle range stuff and, a lot of it, Oh So Perky! 

With the exception of Sondheim, musicals are written for the average listener to enjoy without being challenged. And the singers, of course, have to be able to dance.


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## tyroneslothrop (Sep 5, 2012)

mamascarlatti said:


> I find most musicals have what sounds to my ear much simpler music, and in the case of Lloyd Weber intolerably schmaltzy. Cats and Phantom, shudder.


As mamascarlatti and I briefly discussed offline, when you have a very narrow tessitura, especially one which as Hoffman pointed out tends to be mid-range, then the music and song just sounds a lot simpler. All the complexities have been left out to make it hummable. It's not accidental that high schools today can put on musicals, yet I have yet to see a high school able to put on an operetta!

Now, I think there is a bit of cross-over. In particular, West Side Story was mentioned, and Bernstein composed another work, _Candide_, which is far more operetta than musical. If you compare the two, you'll see that Candide uses a much wider tessitura, with high notes which are definitely operatic, and so the vocal skills of the performers are exercised a lot more than their footwork as stressed in West Side Story. In WSS, the dancing is an integral--not incidental--part of the integrity of the overall work.


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## Yardrax (Apr 29, 2013)

With regards to the difference between Opera and Musicals, there's a really great episode of Omnibus with Leonard Bernstein titled 'American Musical Comedy' where Bernstein describes fusions between theater and music as being on a continuum from the variety show in which popular songs are sung without any connection between each other, and Verdi/Wagner style romantic Opera where there is a total integration of music and drama. In between it's a sliding scale. From comic opera and singspiel down to Operetta, classic Broadway musicals and so on. There are some problems with that description but it helps to conceptualise a bit why it's not so easy to give a certain set of characteristics which are universal to all Opera on one side and then another set for musicals.

Really though, if you want to know the difference, just listening is your best bet.


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## Hoffmann (Jun 10, 2013)

Yardrax, it has been a very, very long time since I have seen or heard reference to _Omnibus_. This was a favorite of my Dad's when I was a kid - when was it, early 1960s? I don't recall that it lasted very long - maybe it was overtaken by Bernstein's Young People's Concerts, I don't know. But, there really hasn't been anything like it since - even on PBS. I remember the anchor/moderator seated on a stool, midstage without sets, smoking a cigarette - all in black and white. Really good stuff.


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## Jobis (Jun 13, 2013)

mamascarlatti said:


> Well, that escalated quickly while I was asleep.
> 
> Apart from the amplification, which radically affects the soundscape and means that singers can perform every night, dance while they are singing and so on (ask de Niese and Dessay how difficult it is to do that when unamplified), as they had to in Giulio Cesare
> 
> ...


It still astounds me that musicals like 'cats and phantom' have a dedicated fanbase, but hey, plebs gonna pleb.


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## MAuer (Feb 6, 2011)

It seems to me that one difference between the German Singspiel and musicals may be the proportions of dialogue to music. The Singspiel is primarily music, with spoken dialogue taking the place of recitatives. Musicals -- at least those I recall from the '50s and '60s --seem to be mostly dialogue interrupted periodically by music.


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## tyroneslothrop (Sep 5, 2012)

MAuer said:


> It seems to me that one difference between the German Singspiel and musicals may be the proportions of dialogue to music. The Singspiel is primarily music, with spoken dialogue taking the place of recitatives. Musicals -- at least those I recall from the '50s and '60s --seem to be mostly dialogue interrupted periodically by music.


...except that as mamascarlatti pointed out, a lot of musicals are through-composed.


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

tyroneslothrop said:


> ...except that as mamascarlatti pointed out, a lot of musicals are through-composed.


Well, I suppose also there has been some evolution in musicals too - Mauer was talking about the ones from the 50s and 60s (which is pretty much where my exposure stopped, apart from Jesus Christ Superstar which I DO like much to my own surprise.)


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## MattExcell (Jun 15, 2011)

Almaviva said:


> Other recommended operettas - by alphabetical order (by composer):
> 
> Gilbert & Sullivan - H.M.S. Pinafore
> Gilbert & Sullivan - The Mikado
> Gilbert & Sullivan - The Pirates of Penzance


There are a load of good G&S missing from the list currently:

Gilbert & Sullivan - Trial by Jury
Gilbert & Sullivan - The Sorcerer
Gilbert & Sullivan - Patience
Gilbert & Sullivan - Iolanthe
Gilbert & Sullivan - Princess Ida
Gilbert & Sullivan - Ruddigore
Gilbert & Sullivan - The Yeoman of the Guard
Gilbert & Sullivan - The Gondoliers


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## MattExcell (Jun 15, 2011)

MAuer said:


> I'm only familiar with Caramello's aria, but it sounds as though this operetta may be worth seeking out.


The music is wonderful, but it's a useless libretto. Highlight for me is this quartet (that I recently had the pleasure of performing myself):


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## SteveSherman (Jan 9, 2014)

MattExcell said:


> There are a load of good G&S missing from the list currently:


Thank you, thank you, thank you! And I would assert that, at the very least, Iolanthe is the equal of the recommended works.

I've had the pleasure of singing a bass role in every one of the pieces Matt listed (my favorites are Private Willis and Sir Roderic Murgatroyd) and I can attest that nothing is more fun.

However I really don't think of the English comic opera as operetta. It is its own category. G&S attempted something very much like an operetta in their last collaboration, The Grand Duke, and fell flat. With the exception of The Prince of Monte Carlo's roulette song, it never will be missed.

Likewise some of Princess Ida (with its blank verse libretto) borders on grand opera and oratorio (Arac's Handel parody is a delight), but its atavistic view of women's education and Darwinian man are now simply an embarassment. A pity, really, as there is quite a lot of fine music in it.

I've often thought that Sullivan has much in common with Leonard Bernstein. Each had great ambitions to compose "serious" music, but they will both best be remembered for their works for the popular musical stage.


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## Johnmusic (Oct 4, 2017)

Most of Rossini, Bellini, Verdi, Donizetti. Puccini Richard Strauss and Wagner.


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