# A Question of Influence



## Roger Knox (Jul 19, 2017)

I've often wondered if posting on TalkClassical has any effect upon others' appreciation of a composer or work. I think now that if a recommendation leads one person to check out a composer or listen to a musical composition, then it is a success. If the person lets me know with a "like" or brief message, then I am happy whatever their opinion of the composer or music is. Of course I hope it's positive! Influence is reciprocal, and a favourable interaction can lead to further connections.

Whether more influence is possible, especially beyond the reach of TalkClassical, is probably out of my hands anyway. I keep thinking about people bombarding the London Proms with posts in capital letters, _demanding_ that they play Composer X or Piece Y. Ain't gonna happen that way. We can be grandiose in our expectations! For example with unheralded composers the effect of advocacy is hit or miss. That doesn't mean we shouldn't try. But I think with the majority of cases little will happen, especially right now. So we're back to interactions with one or a few people, which is fine with me.


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## ORigel (May 7, 2020)

I look to TalkClassical for recommendations about recordings and works. Science's project, the Talk Classical community's favorite and most highly recommended works, is the best list of its kind that I've seen.


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## Ethereality (Apr 6, 2019)

Science's project will always be deservedly popular, as he's always working hard! But there was also this major 2020 Talk Classical Survey that used a different rating mechanism to select favorite works.


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## SONNET CLV (May 31, 2014)

I know that I've encountered many a first time listen or recommendations of otherwise unknown pieces on this very site. It has proved valuable to me. And you can quote me on that, since I have it on very stable authority. (Well...maybe not _that_ stable.)


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## Axter (Jan 15, 2020)

I like the recommendation of various less mainstream recordings here. They are truly eye-openers.


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## annaw (May 4, 2019)

My musical taste has been surprisingly substantially influenced by TC. I have discovered an innumerous number of wonderful works and lesser known composers through TC recommendations. I started listening to opera partly because the opera subforum seemed to have waaay too much fun. Even my preferences regarding conducting and playing styles have been shaped by some TC users. I also appreciate chamber music significantly more than I did a few years ago thanks to people here. So, yeah, I think TC can have quite a huge impact.


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## Guest002 (Feb 19, 2020)

Another vote for being enriched by Talkclassical. The 'Current Listening' threads often turn up composers I've never heard of: I dabble, I get hooked, I feel I benefited in a big way. Specific examples: Vagn Holmboe, Witold Lutosławski, Veljo Tormnis, James MacMillan, but there are others. Not bad for eight months!


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## Winterreisender (Jul 13, 2013)

I would also just observe that talkclassical has pretty good google presence and usually several hundred 'guests' online. When I was discovering classical music, I would type things into google like "best Bruckner symphony" and usually a thread on this forum would be among the top results. I wonder how many lurkers are influenced by things they have read on here, even if they never sign up or post.


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## Roger Knox (Jul 19, 2017)

That's a really good point! I'll come back to the "influence" factor some other time. I'm glad that you all have found the recommendations on TC helpful, as I do -- it's an amazing source. 

As one who has made recommendations sometimes, may I repeat what I said in the OP, that a reciprocal process where the receiver sends feedback to the recommender can have benefits. Currently I'm leading the thread "Unheralded French orchestral composers of the late romantic era" and I'd appreciate comments of any sort -- the thread is doing poorly compared to previous ones I've led, don't know why.


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## Fabulin (Jun 10, 2019)

References and motivation to check out unknown works or revisit those I was ambivalent about the first time - that's the best thing, possibly. The second best thing is discussions where people reference things that are only somewhere in print, and not yet online.


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## Roger Knox (Jul 19, 2017)

ORigel said:


> I look to TalkClassical for recommendations about recordings and works. Science's project, the Talk Classical community's favorite and most highly recommended works, is the best list of its kind that I've seen.


_From looking at Science's project:_ It is very well thought-out and carried-out way of rating compositions in terms of listener preferences of the cohort that participates. If I understand it correctly, the project illustrates Influence Through Contributing, where simply doing ratings affects the end results. The ratings are valid because of sound methodology and correct execution. In addition participants can contribute by nominating additional composers for inclusion. These actions contribute to the potential Group Influence of the Talk Classical Community.

The idea of influence that I have been considering is Reciprocal Influence. At its simplest this is the influence of individuals on each other. Person A recommends something to Person B, who listens to and offers some level of feedback to Person A. The process can be repeated with either person initiating.

One more possibility is Consultation Influence. Someone is recognized as having more experience or education in a particular field. Whether this applies to a thread or to a much larger portion of the site, Consultation Influence is very common and it can extend beyond the borders of Talk Classical if accessed by search engines as described by Winterreisender.

At this point I'll stop so that people can consider the advantages and disadvantages of each: Influence Through Contributing, Reciprocal Influence, and Consultation Influence.


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## Roger Knox (Jul 19, 2017)

Discussion of influence on Talk Classical may bring us to areas best handled by the moderators. As members we need to check the Terms of Service, observe the boundaries, and set our own boundaries too. If one has an area of particular strength, it shouldn't be used to dominate and silence others. What above I am calling Consultation Influence assumes only a temporary role, not a permanent pulpit. Sometimes, if you take the risk of adopting such a role you get back more than you give. And sometimes you make a fool of yourself -- live and learn!


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## zxxyxxz (Apr 14, 2020)

Another user here with their musical life being positvely enriched by talkclassical!

Both as a lurker through google search when starting out my journey listening to opera to being an actual member and being inspired to revisit works I previously didn't like because of other posters enthusiasm. To mixed results but that's just personal taste.


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## musichal (Oct 17, 2020)

I joined recently specifically due to the discussions and lists I found while browser-searching for CM recommendations. It was obvious to me that many here are more knowledgeable than I about compositions and composers - exactly what I sought. I have already purchased thirty, or so, recordings (CDs) based on recs here. Yes, I'd call that influence. Much appreciated, too.


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

Roger Knox said:


> _From looking at Science's project:_ It is very well thought-out and carried-out way of rating compositions in terms of listener preferences of the cohort that participates. If I understand it correctly, the project illustrates Influence Through Contributing, where simply doing ratings affects the end results. The ratings are valid because of sound methodology and correct execution. In addition participants can contribute by nominating additional composers for inclusion. These actions contribute to the potential Group Influence of the Talk Classical Community.
> 
> The idea of influence that I have been considering is Reciprocal Influence. At its simplest this is the influence of individuals on each other. Person A recommends something to Person B, who listens to and offers some level of feedback to Person A. The process can be repeated with either person initiating.
> 
> ...


I ignore the TC lists, and consider the project by "science" to be odd to say the least. First, they represent a tiny sample size and are self-selected which often skews the results in an overly conservative direction. Second, I am against lists of recommended recordings since I firmly believe in the *long term process of individual discovery*.


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## Guest (Nov 5, 2020)

Roger Knox said:


> I've often wondered if posting on TalkClassical has any effect upon others' appreciation of a composer or work...


The value is in that, many times, one thing leads to another, in particular when it leads to surfing YouTube links. Unfortunately, click bait titles of the form "Composer X is Really Bad and No Good" seem to have some of the best sets of links, probably because people who love Composer X just want to talk about Composer X. (Overall, though, click-bait posters don't create the core goodness of this site. An ongoing high density of click-bait would be the beginning of the end. See the broken window fallacy, en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parable_of_the_broken_window.)

Most people probably won't tell you when they benefit from your posts. As to likes, I don't do them, because I'm still revolting against other sites which revolve around crowd-smackdown voting, clicking triangles up, clicking triangles down.

Ultimately, you can't know to what degree you've helped, unless you tie into Facebook style spy-metrics. I'd think there needs to be something in posting for ourselves. Writing up posts can help us formulate our own ideas, or motivate us.



Roger Knox said:


> Currently I'm leading the thread "Unheralded French orchestral composers of the late romantic era" and I'd appreciate comments of any sort -- the thread is doing poorly compared to previous ones I've led, don't know why.


Learn from the click-bait masters. Try _"French orchestral composers of the late romantic era were stupendously unromantic"_.

You can ignore the comments about click bait, though I can possibly spin it here as on topic. I had a thread in mind, something like _"The Conundrum of the Value of Click Bait like 'Schumann is a bad composer'"_.

People who have advanced knowledge relative to the norm aren't many times going to have things to say that other people relate to. The value of people with advanced knowledge hanging around is that they're there when advanced topics come up. Maybe everything in between is filler. Like a prolific composer's lesser pieces. The bulk of the library is there as support and for comparison.


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## zxxyxxz (Apr 14, 2020)

SanAntone said:


> I ignore the TC lists, and consider the project by "science" to be odd to say the least. First, they represent a tiny sample size and are self-selected which often skews the results in an overly conservative direction. Second, I am against lists of recommended recordings since I firmly believe in the *long term process of individual discovery*.


I think lists and recommendations are a great place to start if you are new to a genre/work but I do agree that everyone's tastes are different and exploring recordings and work is part of the fun.


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## Roger Knox (Jul 19, 2017)

GezzMontC said:


> The value is in that, many times, one thing leads to another, in particular when it leads to surfing YouTube links. Unfortunately, click bait titles of the form "Composer X is Really Bad and No Good" seem to have some of the best sets of links, probably because people who love Composer X just want to talk about Composer X. ... Ultimately, you can't know to what degree you've helped, unless you tie into Facebook style spy-metrics. I'd think there needs to be something in posting for ourselves. *Writing up posts can help us formulate our own ideas, or motivate us.*


I think that's a very astute comment. Your other remarks are helpful for me too. I like to explore compositions in an organized way and write about them, using my background in musical composition and analysis but staying grounded! As for recordings, there are many people on TalkClassical who are more knowledgeable and discerning than me. And some of my comments above about influence and music ranking projects now strike me as premature at best so they're going back into the cellar.


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## pianozach (May 21, 2018)

Roger Knox said:


> I've often wondered if posting on TalkClassical has any effect upon others' appreciation of a composer or work. I think now that if a recommendation leads one person to check out a composer or listen to a musical composition, then it is a success. If the person lets me know with a "like" or brief message, then I am happy whatever their opinion of the composer or music is. Of course I hope it's positive! Influence is reciprocal, and a favourable interaction can lead to further connections.
> 
> Whether more influence is possible, especially beyond the reach of TalkClassical, is probably out of my hands anyway. I keep thinking about people bombarding the London Proms with posts in capital letters, _demanding_ that they play Composer X or Piece Y. Ain't gonna happen that way. We can be grandiose in our expectations! For example with unheralded composers the effect of advocacy is hit or miss. That doesn't mean we shouldn't try. But I think with the majority of cases little will happen, especially right now. So we're back to interactions with one or a few people, which is fine with me.


I've heard a lot of music I'd never have found on my own. Learned a bit about some musical works.


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## consuono (Mar 27, 2020)

I've come to appreciate the recordings of Rosalyn Tureck, the compositional skill of John Williams and the clavier concerti of Bach from reading some of the comments here, so yeah posts here can have an influence. On the other hand I've grown a lot more sour on "modern music" and its fans, so that influence can cut both ways.


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

There are some whose opinions are so consistently opposite of mine, that when I see that they _do not like_ something, I seek it out immediately, and what they rave about I make a mental note to avoid.

So, a reverse influence is more often the case.


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