# Focus on singers' physical attributes: innocent fun, or distasteful?



## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

After a complaint from a member (to which I didn't react kindly at first, but now I apologize and will take it seriously), I thought I should consult the membership body (no pun intended... oh wait, let's be honest: pun intended) - especially the opera regulars since this tends to happen in this forum rather than in others - about the sort of light banter / joking references to sopranos and mezzo-sopranos in ways that highlight their looks and physical attributes (such as beautiful breasts) instead of their singing, as well as male singers for their pecs, etc. The word used by the member was "distasteful" in reference to such messages.

I'm one of the biggest culprits for this kind of content, as you all know (although when I joined, the "Lovely Sopranos" thread was in full activity already and shortly after that some of our female members started a similar thread for baritones and tenors - but nothing as aggressive as the infamous Alma Boob-O-Meter). 

If this is really bothering most of the members or at least a significant part of the members, I'd be willing to moderate my own behavior (although I wouldn't go as far as trying to curb peoples' behavior - I'll vote option E, obviously - but the poll will speak for itself and if there is strong dislike/hatred for this kind of thing, this should give pause to me and others who indulge in it). So here is a poll.

I'll include as poll options just A - Hate it, B - Dislike it, C - Neutral, D - Like it, E - Love it - but I want to also give each option a longer paragraph so here is what each option means:

A - I hate it. It is gross. We are for the most part grown people here who should stop this childish behavior and go back to discussing classical music, not to forget that we're setting a bad example to the younger members

B - I don't hate it but I dislike it and I'm bothered by it because it is silly and distasteful

C - I don't mind it either way. I'm neutral on this, and couldn't care less if this kind of content keeps happening or not

D - It's not that I go out of my way to endorse it but if people have fun with this kind of stuff, fine with me; mostly I even like it and react with a little chuckle.

E - I love it. It's innocent fun, and makes the board more lively, light, and entertaining. We all know that people don't really mean what they say and it's just for the humor. We do have other threads that are more serious so it's fine for serious and light content to co-exist like this.

I'll set the poll as anonymous so vote at will.

Comments are optional.


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## Aramis (Mar 1, 2009)

I don't have anything against the idea per se, I'm a little bit annoyed though because of it's wide range that made it present in a lot of various threads other than "loveliest soprano", all these _my Anna_ vs _your Rene_ jokes and other stuff based on "soprano's **** humour" is rather undesirable in my case and spoils the opera section for me, I'm vomiting Anna Netrebko.


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## emiellucifuge (May 26, 2009)

I dont have anything against it, but do feel it sometimes takes the focus away from the musical things. So neutral...


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

Aramis said:


> I don't have anything against the idea per se, I'm a little bit annoyed though because of it's wide range that made it present in a lot of various threads other than "loveliest soprano", all these _my Anna_ vs _your Rene_ jokes and other stuff based on "soprano's **** humour" is rather undesirable in my case and spoils the opera section for me, I'm vomiting Anna Netrebko.


Aramis! I can't say I'm not shocked with your vote! You of all people!

:lol:


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## sospiro (Apr 3, 2010)

I know the poll is anonymous but I choose to say how I've voted. And that is definitely 'E'.

I never take any of these discussions seriously & think they are harmless fun. I find the _Anna v every other soprano in the history of the world_ arguments hilarious & even occasionally dare to suggest there are others who are prettier & who can sing better.

I'll save you the trouble, Alma.


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## rgz (Mar 6, 2010)

sospiro said:


> I find the _Anna v every other soprano in the history of the world_ arguments hilarious & even occasionally dare to suggest there are others who are prettier & who can sing better.


When I get some time I'm going to do some analysis on the results of the top 100 poll. I think that Anna has more winning operas than any other soprano, which gives weight to Alma's argument, but that Ms. Dessay has won a higher percentage of her available operas and of course the all-important head-to-head in Manon and is therefore clearly superior


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## MAuer (Feb 6, 2011)

I went with "D," particularly since I've been known to post comments about el Guapo that express appreciation for more than just his gorgeous tenor voice. This seems to be pretty harmless stuff, and it isn't as though anyone's primary interest in any of these individuals is focused on their physical attributes rather than their vocal talent. To me, references to "boobs" are a long way from really offensive, vulgar terminology.


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## Sieglinde (Oct 25, 2009)

Depends on role. A big man can be a killer Wotan and a ridiculous Don Giovanni (there's a bass-baritone who I adore as Wotan but he's got an extremely ugly face and is kinda big. He was a great Leporello but switched to the Don. Bad.). I'm more tolerant for fat Brünnhildes (better than someone who's small but her voice is ALSO small, like a certain someone who ruined too many Rings) than fat Mimis (not at all). Fat tenors, NO. I've seen too many fat AND voiceless Siegfrieds. And they overact like hell.
I've seen a Radames (in a Scala dvd!) who was so big that his tiny Aida needed 5-6 steps just to be on his other side, and he was one of the biggest names. All he did was staying there like a column. Oh, sure he sang well, even if I never liked his voice colour, but Radames? Heroism? Badass warrior? (Admitting: he did maybe the most beautiful Nessun dormas on concerts.)

On the other hand, basses can be as big as they want. And Christian Franz is a special case, although he's not really fat just a bit chubby and looks like someone who plans mischief, but he can magically change into whatever he wants as soon as he steps on stage. That man is a wizard.


For the opposite side...

As long as they sing well, I'm happy with good-looking singers. But when they have no voice and/or have too big an ego, I'll despise them about the same level I do with Pattinson types. This especially applies to bitches who think they're the new Callas and tenors who look like Mr. Bean. Oh, and tenors who smoke on stage, think they're next Domingo and know only one style... forte.


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

I voted D too. Although the voices and music are supremely important in opera, I find the attractiveness or otherwise of the singers (especially in romantic roles) important, as well as whether they can act the part (actually the latter is essential to me). I'd feel sad if we felt too constrained to mention this.


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## Polednice (Sep 13, 2009)

Although it's anonymous, I'd just like to say that you ought to consider one of the Cs (me) as actually an E - I voted before I read the OP (dumb, I know), and, for the sake of this discussion, I'm actually much more an E.

Just as with our now well-loved 'like' button, I think it's all in good humour and taste to compliment (or drool over) a singer's body, so long as it doesn't descend into saying who's ugly (which I don't believe it ever has). As far as I've been aware, it's all been in good moderation too - dedicated threads can be ignored by those who dislike it, and threads on other matters that contain comments on the 'aesthetic pleasures' of singers have such comments as asides; not as an attempt to overrun the purpose of the thread.

If anything, we should have more threads on this because we're forgetting all the hot instrumentalists out there!


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## TxllxT (Mar 2, 2011)

D. From time to time we zap with our motorised satellite dish over Europe. Again and again I'm  with Italian television being run by such unattractive moderators (male *&* female)! So perhaps that's the reason why these Italians (Americo-Italians included) are so :clap::clap::clap::clap: with opera........


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## Aksel (Dec 3, 2010)

D. I find the _Anna v everyone else_ arguments rather amusing, and although I fear that the field of opera will become too body-focused, I don't see anything wrong with us talking about pretty sopranos and hunky tenors from time to time.


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## Aramis (Mar 1, 2009)

Did I mention that I'm also heavily annoyed with those appearance related nicknames - La Bellisima, El Guapo, forged by little groups of psycho-fans? When I see them I'm all like:


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## sabrina (Apr 26, 2011)

I am against any critique/bad things about opera singers physical appearance, per se. I also don't find it so necessary to keep talking about whatever/whose-ever boobs in an opera post. Sometimes it could be funny, but if this is repeated, it looses its innocence.
And I also don't find correct nicknames like La belissima, Draculete, El Guapo (I don't even know who is this handsome guy). 
I am OK with La Divina, though...now I am listening to her Armida (out of this world)


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## HarpsichordConcerto (Jan 1, 2010)

Me voted _Neutral_. It's a bit of fun for a discussion forum but I'm not too fussed by their looks. A beautiful soprano of course makes the scene much more interesting but I sure get mad if they can't sing and act the part, regardless of their looks.

Somehow, if their singing is magic, then they often look beautiful anyway.


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## Polednice (Sep 13, 2009)

HarpsichordConcerto said:


> Somehow, if their singing is magic, then they often look beautiful anyway.


Awww, how romantic!  I just have to have a man with a hairy chest!!


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

So far no haters, and a small majority for those who like it or love it over those who dislike it, but still, there is a significant number of dislikers. Too early to tell, this poll is still not even one day old, but if the trends continue, I'd interpret the result as a reason to moderate the behavior a little as a matter of respect for the 35% among us who dislike it - such as making it more focused on certain threads and less frequent/repetitive/out-of-contest, but the numbers so far wouldn't call for the complete extintion of the behavior.

Oh wait, changing the vote from Polednice as requested by the member, this would indeed give a different breakdown:

We'd have 30% of "likers" plus 20% of "lovers" with 15% "indifferent" and 35% "dislikers" which would be a little more favorable for the continuation of the behavior - but like I said, we'll see, we should let this poll run for longer before drawing conclusions.


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

Aramis said:


> Did I mention that I'm also heavily annoyed with those appearance related nicknames - La Bellisima, El Guapo, forged by little groups of psycho-fans?


OK, I definitely belong to a little group of psycho-fans, then.:lol:


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

Almaviva said:


> OK, I definitely belong to a little group of psycho-fans, then.:lol:


Cripes. First I'm mythical, (according to another thread, opera lovers are a myth), and now I'm psycho. What an interesting life I must be leading!:lol:


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## karenpat (Jan 16, 2009)

I don't see anything wrong as such with those threads..What annoys me sometimes is if the language becomes too graphic, but that is a matter of taste I suppose. I've posted in the gorgeous baritones/tenors thread several times and I think that thread qualifies as innocent fun.


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## StlukesguildOhio (Dec 25, 2006)

Me voted Neutral. It's a bit of fun for a discussion forum but I'm not too fussed by their looks. A beautiful soprano of course makes the scene much more interesting but I sure get mad if they can't sing and act the part, regardless of their looks.

Somehow, if their singing is magic, then they often look beautiful anyway.

It probably doesn't matter in listening to a recording... but I think that looks are indeed a key element in opera as seen live or in filmed performance. Perhaps this is even more true for myself as a visual artist, but I do think that the wrong look can interfere with theatrical illusion. This is as true of male singers as female. If the role is that of the young lover, the 45-year old overweight dude can surely undermine the whole. I don't see this as any different than my expectations of the female lead. Birgit Nilsson's recording of Salome may be unrivaled... but I can't watch her performance. I just can't picture this woman driving Herod mad with lust:






Beside... Teresa Stratas owns this role:


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## crmoorhead (Apr 6, 2011)

Lol, I think it adds a dimension of normality to the genre of opera. It's fun, light-hearted and truly reassuring to know that opera stars are subject to the same adoration as movie or pop stars. Beautiful sopranos add something to a perpormance because opera is a visual medium as well as an aural one. Of course, they had also better be able to sing well enough - we are a demanding audience!

Look at it from a historical perspective. Opera stars were the film stars of Verdi's day. The Italians of yesteryear are unlikely to have not been drawn to beautiful singers - why should we be above them? Its all part of the fire and passion that should be in the blood of all opera lovers!


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## Meaghan (Jul 31, 2010)

HarpsichordConcerto said:


> Somehow, if their singing is magic, then they often look beautiful anyway.


 I find this to be true of instrumentalists as well. Musical talent is just very attractive.


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

The percentage of members who dislike it has dropped to 28.5%.
Do also keep in mind that Polednice has changed his vote to E from the C that he initially entered by mistake (but my level of moderating powers doesn't allow me to edit results of a poll so unless a higher-placed moderator/administrator edits it, we'll have to live with the error and just mentally take note of it when interpreting the results).

I feel that some people by their responses are slightly missing the point. They are saying whether or not it is acceptable to focus on a singer's looks when one is watching opera. The question is more whether or not *expressing this kind of content *here in TalkClassical* is innocent fun or distasteful.*

We are all human beings (I think we are... there are no folks from outer space here, right?) therefore we are all subject to sexual attraction and to appreciation of physical beauty. I think it is rare to encounter a human being who doesn't like to look at another beautiful or sexy human being (of the opposite or same sex, depending on one's orientation). We are a sub-sample of human beings who also happen to like classical music (and opera as an art form here in this forum). This sub-sample doesn't get vaccinated against the general attraction human beings experience for sexy and physically beautiful people. We don't stop having a dose of sexuality just because we happen to love opera.

However different people have different moral standards, different senses of propriety, and will be more or less comfortable with expressing these feelings, or with witnessing someone else's expression of these feelings. The question is NOT "is it OK to find an opera singer beautiful/attractive?" The question is "is it OK to talk about it here in Talk Classical?"

I hope that the above clarifies the purpose of the poll.


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## rgz (Mar 6, 2010)

I voted B; w/r/t watching opera, it's always more enjoyable to see attractive people (of either sex) than unattractive. But, just personally, I feel that discussing tushes and **** is a bit objectifying and demeaning. It doesn't offend me, I just tend to think that it's a bit disrespectful.


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

rgz said:


> I voted B; w/r/t watching opera, it's always more enjoyable to see attractive people (of either sex) than unattractive. But, just personally, I feel that discussing tushes and **** is a bit objectifying and demeaning. It doesn't offend me, I just tend to think that it's a bit disrespectful.


Strange. You have discussed Natalie Dessay's body here.


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## rgz (Mar 6, 2010)

Almaviva said:


> Strange. You have discussed Natalie Dessay's body here.


I believe the only time I've mentioned her body (though I may be mistaken) was to express astonishment / envy that you'd seen a "wardrobe malfunction" of hers.


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

rgz said:


> I believe the only time I've mentioned her body (though I may be mistaken) was to express astonishment / envy that you'd seen a "wardrobe malfunction" of hers.


 Yes, that's the episode I was referring to.


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## sospiro (Apr 3, 2010)

Almaviva said:


> ... The question is NOT "is it OK to find an opera singer beautiful/attractive?" The question is "is it OK to talk about it here in Talk Classical?" ...


Maybe we could keep the threads 'loveliest soprano' & 'gorgeous baritones' just for talking about the singers' physical attributes and those members who think it's demeaning or offensive could steer clear of these threads?


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

sospiro said:


> Maybe we could keep the threads 'loveliest soprano' & 'gorgeous baritones' just for talking about the singers' physical attributes and those members who think it's demeaning or offensive could steer clear of these threads?


I'm hopeful that the final result of this poll will support my misbehavior so that I'll be able to talk about Anna's boobs EVERYWHERE!!!:devil::devil::devil:

(kidding. Like I said, I'm willing to curb my excesses if they bother too many members)


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## MattExcell (Jun 15, 2011)

As long as the language doesn't get too negative, then I don't see much problem with it. I agree with Stlukes that there are some singers (male and female) who may have outstanding voices, but you just can't picture their opposite number being out of their minds lusting after them.

At the end of the day opera stars are actors and nobody bats an eyelid at this kind of conversation about your Angelina Jolies, Rachel Anistons, etc

So yeah, more of Anna, please  (just not on every thread)


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

MattExcell said:


> As long as the language doesn't get too negative, then I don't see much problem with it. I agree with Stlukes that there are some singers (male and female) who may have outstanding voices, but you just can't picture their opposite number being out of their minds lusting after them.
> 
> At the end of the day opera stars are actors and nobody bats an eyelid at this kind of conversation about your Angelina Jolies, Rachel Anistons, etc
> 
> So yeah, more of Anna, please  (just not on every thread)


Haven't you voted? The totals didn't change.


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## BalloinMaschera (Apr 4, 2011)

I think it's fair to say that "innocent fun" is a non-sensical contradiction in itself, especially when physique is part of the equation.

It may be fun to some, but it ain't innocent.

as for "distasteful"... taste is (fortunately) not arguable...


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## sabrina (Apr 26, 2011)

Physical appearance has its importance as opera has both singing and acting, plus we have our own preferences. But, discussing too much about those phenotypes is a different thing. I even have my own stories about that. 
I was not happy seeing a very short guy (who happened to be Asian), playing Fiorello in one Il Barbiere I've watched live. But, when he started singing his short aria, my mouth dropped. He has an amazing voice. And not only that he can sing, but he was very good in acting his role. I ended up loving him! Who cared he was too short?
But, I also watched live, Puccini's Madama Butterfly, and the title role was sang by an average, fat, colored soprano. I really don't care of our skin color, but I'd rather have either a real (young) Asian singer or someone that can be made up to look like that. I could have swallowed that physical lack of matching if the singing was OK, not necessarily great. That was not the case. I did not even recognize Un bel di... It was a total failure!


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