# The hardest piano work



## Crystal

I'm curious about the hardest piano work. Please tell me and I can try it, to know my skills.


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## Animal the Drummer

"Mazeppa" from Liszt's "Transcendental Etudes" must be high on the list. I once heard Trifonov play the whole set live and even he had trouble with this one.


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## Holden4th

I've heard that the Beethoven symphony transcriptions by Liszt are well up there for technical difficulty....and while we're talking Liszt there is the Rhapsodie Espagnole. Just looking at the sheet music makes my eyes water....


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## Bettina

I'd add Balakirev's Islamey to the list too.


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## S P Summers

Charles Valentin-Alkan - "12 Etudes in All the Minor Keys", Op.39 is one of the most technically demanding, large scale piano works ever written. Far surpasses the Liszt Transcendental Etudes in difficulty.

Speaking of Liszt, his solo piano transcriptions of the 9 Beethoven symphonies are (at least) equal in difficulty to Alkan's Op.39. My favorite recording of the complete set is by Cyprien Katsaris. Konstantin Sherbakov's recording is excellent as well.

Almost everything that Alkan wrote for the piano could be included in the most difficult piano repertoire, actually. My favorite Alkan interpreter is Jack Gibbons: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLAB78B05E76DBE0BC

By the way, we cannot have a thread like this without mentioning the music of Leopold Godowsky. I won't ramble about GODowsky, but his "Passacaglia", "Piano Sonata in E Minor", and "Studies after Frederic Chopin" are also large scale works that require superhuman virtuosity.

So far we have:
-Alkan- 12 Etudes in All the Minor Keys, Op.39
-Liszt- Solo Piano Transcriptions of the 9 Beethoven Symphonies
-Godowsky- Passacaglia
-Godowsky- Piano Sonata in E Minor
-Godowsky- Studies after Frederic Chopin

I would add:
-M.Moszkowski- Piano Concerto in E Major, Op.59
-F.Busoni- Piano Concerto in C Major, Op.39
-M.Ravel- Gaspard de la nuit
-M.Ravel- Miroirs ("Alborada del gracioso" in particular)
-Any Alkan piece, really

...There are others, but those are the pieces that immediately come to mind for me.


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## Pugg

Did you ever try the Liszt: Piano Sonata in B minor Crystal ?


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## hpowders

Crystal said:


> I'm curious about the hardest piano work. Please tell me and I can try it, to know my skills.


Sure. Try Debussy's L'isle Joyeuse.


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## chill782002

Crystal said:


> I'm curious about the hardest piano work. Please tell me and I can try it, to know my skills.


You must be a far better pianist than I am if you can even consider trying to play the more difficult works in the piano repertoire.

That said (and these are just off the top of my head, I'm sure others can think of even more difficult pieces):

Alkan - Le Chemin de Fer
Balakirev - Islamey
Beethoven - Sonata 29 ("Hammerklavier")
Prokofiev - Toccata
Ravel - Gaspard de la Nuit
Scriabin - Sonata 5


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## S P Summers

Maybe you should check out Schumann's "Symphonic Etudes, Op.13". I obviously don't know how skilled you are as a pianist, but if you've never attempted the music of Alkan, Godowsky, etc; you should be able to handle something like Schumann's Op.13 before attempting some of the most difficult piano repertoire in history.


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## lextune

There is no "hardest work".

Every hand is different.

Every pianist has different strengths and weaknesses.

I might find several of Chopin's Etudes to be incredibly difficult, while finding others to be simplicity itself...
...while you find the exact opposite to be true.

Every piece mentioned in this thread is extremely difficult to play well. 

But if you asked for the "easiest pieces to play" I would contend that they are all difficult to play well as well. Chopin's E minor Prelude is a great example. Any young piano student can pluck out the notes, but I can tell virtually all I need to know about any professional pianist by hearing them play it. It makes interpretive demands at the highest level. 

That distinction aside. Of course there is a class of piano music that makes extreme technical demands, on top of the requisite interpretive demands , like all the ones mentioned in this thread, any one of them could be the "most difficult" that any random pianist ever attempts.

***

All that said, for me personally as a pianist, Ives' Piano Sonata No. 2, Concord, Mass., is the most difficult piece I have put serious time into. 
I have also visited Alkan's Minor Key Etudes' on several occasions, and they deserve mention; I know them quite well, but the Ives was harder in more ways...


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## Holden4th

lextune said:


> There is no "hardest work".
> 
> Every hand is different.
> 
> Every pianist has different strengths and weaknesses.
> 
> I might find several of Chopin's Etudes to be incredibly difficult, while finding others to be simplicity itself...
> ...while you find the exact opposite to be true.
> 
> Every piece mentioned in this thread is extremely difficult to play well.
> 
> But if you asked for the "easiest pieces to play" I would contend that they are all difficult to play well as well. Chopin's E minor Prelude is a great example. Any young piano student can pluck out the notes, but I can tell virtually all I need to know about any professional pianist by hearing them play it. It makes interpretive demands at the highest level.
> 
> That distinction aside. Of course there is a class of piano music that makes extreme technical demands, on top of the requisite interpretive demands , like all the ones mentioned in this thread, any one of them could be the "most difficult" that any random pianist ever attempts.
> 
> ***
> 
> All that said, for me personally as a pianist, Ives' Piano Sonata No. 2, Concord, Mass., is the most difficult piece I have put serious time into.
> I have also visited Alkan's Minor Key Etudes' on several occasions, and they deserve mention; I know them quite well, but the Ives was harder in more ways...


Excellent post and I totally agree with the Op 28/4 as a way of gauging a pianist. Op 28/6 & 7 are similar. The hardest Chopin piece to get right interpretatively IMO is the Berceuse.


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## Roger Knox

Crystal said:


> Please tell me and I can try it, to know my skills.


I don't know what your level is now, but taking on the most difficullt pieces without proper preparation can cause permanent damege to your arms. I have seen this happen to people more than once. Never play the Schumann Toccata, op. 7.


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## prokofiev

Crystal said:


> I'm curious about the hardest piano work. Please tell me and I can try it, to know my skills.


I think it goes without saying that you shouldn't try any of these pieces unless you want tendonitis (applies to most of the pieces suggested here)- there's so much technique you need to learn for these. Like I've heard of beginners trying to play the liszt hungarian rhapsodies and injuring their hands as a result

Anways, the hardest solo piano pieces in the standard repertoire I can think of are

Beethoven Hammerklavier
Liszt Sonata Bmol
Liszt Don Juan, Norma, etc
Liszt TE#5
Schumann tocatta
Ravel Gaspard de la nuit
Scriabin sonata 5
Rachmaninoff Sonata #2
Bartok piano sonata
Barber piano sonata
Mussorsky pictures at an exhibition
Stravinsky petroucka/firebird suite
Balakriev Islamy
Brahms paganini variations
pretty much everything by Alkan


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## Lisztian

I honestly have no idea, but as far as Liszt goes I was interested in Leslie Howard's perspective as per his most difficult works (from having played every note Liszt ever wrote for solo piano):

"Among his original works, and allowing for the fact that his greatest technical demands always proceed from an intrinsically musical need, the Scherzo and March tests an enormous variety of skills. Among the transcriptions, I'd nominate the finale of Beethoven's Ninth, and, from the fantasies, those on Don Giovanni (with the fuller text), Figaro/Don Giovanni(original version, not the Busoni), Les Huguenots and I puritani."

All this being said, difficulty is extremely subjective.

I also think the "pretty much anything by Alkan" comments are unfair: the guy wrote a lot of technically accessible music.


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## hpowders

Hardest?

Try playing a Mozart adagio or andante from piano concertos 20-27 or the andante from the piano sonata in F Major K 533.

Anyone graduating from Curtis or Juilliard can play Liszt Transcendental Etudes or Chopin Etudes like a mechanical robot, not missing a note.

The real virtuosity? A Mozart slow movement played in an emotionally satisfying manner that moves someone. Most difficult thing in music.


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## DavidA

Ravel - Gaspard de la Nuit - is apparently among the most difficult technically.


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## DavidA

hpowders said:


> Hardest?
> 
> Try playing a Mozart adagio or andante from piano concertos 20-27 or the andante from the piano sonata in F Major K 533.
> 
> Anyone graduating from Curtis or Juilliard can play Liszt Transcendental Etudes or Chopin Etudes like a mechanical robot, not missing a note.
> 
> The real virtuosity? A Mozart slow movement played in an emotionally satisfying manner that moves someone. Most difficult thing in music.


"The sonatas of Mozart are unique; they are too easy for children, and too difficult for artists."
― Artur Schnabel

"In Mozart's keyboard works everything is exposed. There are relatively few notes and each of them counts. Not only that you find the right key, but that you give each key the right nuance, the right inflection. If you are not careful you fall into a trap. This is also why these pieces are relatively rarely performed. I think that most players shy away from them. They either don't see the complications and think the pieces are too easy, or they do see the complications and find them too difficult."
Alfred Brendel


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## Pugg

Mussorgsky: Pictures at an Exhibition 
Don't be fooled by the opening, try to get this piece under your belt


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## DavidA

Pugg said:


> Mussorgsky: Pictures at an Exhibition
> Don't be fooled by the opening, try to get this piece under your belt


I must confess I have never got past the opening so my belt is rather narrow!


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## Pugg

DavidA said:


> I must confess I have never got past the opening so my belt is rather narrow!


There is no problem listening to it, playing it is a very different matter .


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## Larry

Ravel's Alborada del Gracioso and Balakirev's Islamay are two pieces I have some experience with. I truly believe that Islamay was intended as a ballet piece for orchestra. It is basically two melodies repeated umpteen times in different keys. Modulations by orchestra are easy but difficult on piano. It not so much challenges you as wears you out though it is very challenging. I slogged about half way through and realized that the rest was just more of the same. Too much work for too little reward.
Alborada is a wonderful piece of music. I think the technical difficulty comes in the fact that Ravel crams all ten fingers into a small space. He must have had long slender hands as he also expects an octave and a third reach. It is a page turner. Every page presents a new challenge and offers a new reward. 
When contemplating such a challenge ask yourself: 1. Do I have the physical capabilities for this particular piece? Guys with wide hands and fingers probably are not suited for Ravel. 2. Can I dedicate 2 to 4 hours of practice per day for several weeks or months? 3. Is my piano up to the task? There was a sticky spot in Alborada which I could not play cleanly on my Knabe, and just conceded that I wasn't capable, until I wandered into a piano store that was selling some hand made Swedish piano for a ridiculous price. I sat down and played through the sticky spot without difficulty. The piano played like a dream. 
Yo Yo Ma plays licks on his cello that we can only dream of. Partly because he is good, partly because his cello is worth about $10,000,000.


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## Animal the Drummer

It's quite possible that Ravel wasn't up to the demands of his own most difficult piano pieces. Though a good pianist he was not a virtuoso. Nor would he have been alone in this - Schubert for example is said to have found parts of the "Wanderer" Fantasy to be beyond him.


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## Larry

Aha! I've never seen a picture of Ravel's hands. He was short and thin which would explain the tight fingerings, but I can't believe that he could reach an octave and a third.


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## tdc

Yes there is a recording of Ravel playing Sad Birds from Miroirs on youtube demonstrating he was a good player, but I think he left his most difficult works to others such as Ricardo Vines. I doubt he could stretch an octave and a third but then neither could Alicia De Larrocha, but virtuosos with smaller hands have tricks they use and ways around that. 

I think mastering a piece like Alborado would take more than 2 to 4 hours of practice a day for most. I think the majority of performers who play that kind of repertoire are more like in the 6 to 8 hour a day range (there are some exceptions).


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## Il_Penseroso

Godowsky's 53 Studies after Chopin('s Etudes). Incredibly technical demanding!


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## Il_Penseroso

tdc said:


> Yes there is a recording of Ravel playing Sad Birds from Miroirs on youtube demonstrating he was a good player, but I think he left his most difficult works to others such as Ricardo Vines. I doubt he could stretch an octave and a third but then neither could Alicia De Larrocha, but virtuosos with smaller hands have tricks they use and ways around that.
> 
> I think mastering a piece like Alborado would take more than 2 to 4 hours of practice a day for most. I think the majority of performers who play that kind of repertoire are more like in the 6 to 8 hour a day range (there are some exceptions).


It has been said that it was actually Robert Casadesus who played Toccata (from Le tombeau de Couperin) and Le gibet (from Gaspard de lu nuit) for Duo-Art Piano Roll System in London on 30 June 1922. Gaby Casadesus, the widow of the eminent pianist later confirmed this and explained that Ravel, with his quite small hands, did not have enough reach to handle those two works.

https://www.maurice-ravel.net/pianorolls.htm


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## tdc

Il_Penseroso said:


> It has been said that it was actually Robert Casadesus who played Toccata (from Le tombeau de Couperin) and Le gibet (from Gaspard de lu nuit) for Duo-Art Piano Roll System in London on 30 June 1922. Gaby Casadesus, the widow of the eminent pianist later confirmed this and explained that Ravel, with his quite small hands, did not have enough reach to handle those two works.
> 
> https://www.maurice-ravel.net/pianorolls.htm


Interesting thanks for the information. Here is the recording of Ravel performing _Oiseaux tristes_ from _Miroirs_. If the article you linked to is correct this recording actually took place in 1922 and not 1912 as stated in the information under the video.


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## arnerich

In my opinion it would be Beethoven's Hammerklavier sonata. It's not only extremely difficult to perform technically but a challenge to interpret.


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## Aurelian

I have followed the score to Scriabin's _Vers la Flamme_, and I do not know how that is playable.


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## ClassicalMaestro

What about Bach Well-Tempered works, and the Goldberg Variations very difficult


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## insomniclassicac

Just a few incredibly-challenging piano works not yet mentioned:

Dukas - Piano Sonata in E-flat Minor
Liszt - Rondeau fantastique sur un thème espagnol "El Contrabandista" S. 252
Melcer‑Szczwinski - Piano Concerto No.2 in C-minor 
Méreaux, Étude Op. 63 No. 24


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## ClassicalMaestro

The piece you learn to play for the first time.


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## agoukass

Godowsky: 53 Studies on Chopin Etudes; Wein, Weib, und Gesang Paraphrase 
Liszt: Scherzo und Marsch; Paraphrase on Themes from Bellini's Norma
Beethoven: Hammerklavier Sonata; Diabelli Variations
Alkan: Concerto for Solo Piano (from 12 Etudes in the Minor Keys) 
Brahms: Variations on a Theme by Paganini, Op. 35 (Books I and II)
Bach-Brahms: Chaconne in D minor for the Left Hand 
Henselt: Etude Op. 2 No. 6 "If I were a bird" (Rachmaninoff played this every morning before he got down to practicing)
Rachmaninoff: Piano Sonata No. 2 (original version); Etudes Tableaux, Opp. 33 & 39; Piano Concerto No. 3 in D minor


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## BiscuityBoyle

Prokofiev's Piano Concerto No. 2, it sounds like he set out to write the ultimate virtuoso piano part, at least the first movement. 

Bartok Piano Concerto No. 2 is also brutal.


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## chu42

Alkan is being overrated in difficulty here. As someone with experience with his etudes, many of his pieces are playable and not harder than Liszt.

But with that being said- his repertoire does contain several of the most technically ridiculous pieces ever put on paper, far surpassing anything Liszt and Chopin ever wrote.

-Concerto for Solo Piano: The first movement alone has more bars than the entirety of the Hammerklavier- add the other movements and it's a forty technical nightmare at a breakneck pace.
-Le Preux: The Concerto has several decent recordings, some even live. Le Preux doesn't even have one- read the sheet music and you'll see why. The numerous jumps from beginning to end are ridiculous and missing one is all too easy, making this a deadly piece for live performance. It's not complicated stuff but the sheer insanity of the accuracy required makes this piece possibly the most technically demanding ever written. Oh, it's also twenty pages long- performed in six minutes. If you thought the Schumann Toccata was insane- check this out.

Some other notably difficult pieces in his repertoire include:
-Le Chemin de Fer
-Scherzo Focoso
-Comme le Vent
-Symphony for Solo Piano
-Trois Grandes Etudes (left hand only)

These are all of the highest tier level in technical difficulty. I recommend you guys check them out, even if they aren't particularly interesting in musicality I guarantee the brilliance of the technique will blow you away.

So yes, Alkan is ridiculous but to say "almost anything by Alkan" could be here is just false. L'Festin de Aesop, one of his most celebrated etudes, isn't more difficult than Brahm's Paganini variations. His set of four sonatas (actually very musical pieces) is maximum Liszt difficulty but not harder.

Other pieces I'd consider to be the most difficult:

-Amédée Meraux's Bravura (and other such similar pieces by him)
-Godowsky Passacaglia (his etudes, especially No.36 in G-Sharp, are also something)
-Busoni Contrapuntistica
-Beethoven Hammerklavier: The Hammerklavier 4th movement still reigns supreme in terms of counterpoint, the first movement is fairly demanding on all edges, and the third is almost impossible to play without becoming boring.
-Brahm's Paganini Variations could be a contender due to the span of technique and the mental/physical endurance required.
-Liszt's Scherzo Fantastique, Schumann's Tocatta, and Ravel's Scarbo both also seem to be very demanding. Most difficult? Not sure about that.
-If we get into the contemporary this list would not be complete without Sorabji. His Opus Clavicembalisticum is over four hours long and unperformed in a sitting, due to the consistent technical brilliance required for the entierty of said four hours. His Symphonic Variations for Piano are twice that length and obvious unperformed. This is due to it's obvious stamina requirements and the fact that nobody wants to sit down and listen to avant-garde virtuosity for nine hours straight. Nine. Hours. You thought the Hammerklavier was a big piece? Try playing an almost entirely atonal composition for nine hours. I'd go insane.
-Charles Ives: To get all the right notes in the relentlessly difficult Concord Sonata is one thing- but getting it to sound like anything other than a bunch of banging is another. It's 45 minutes of Ives eccentricities to wrap your head around.
-Rzewski, Boulez, and Xenakis all have composed a variety of horrendous "music" for piano. I'm not a fan for the most part (Ives, as nightmarish as he seems, is much more easy on the ears) but they deserve mention especially in terms of rhythmic difficulty.

To the people posting Prokofiev and such- these pieces are simply on a different level than any Prokofiev, as difficult as Prokofiev seems.

Also, question about Cziffra. I've only seen the sheet music and not played it, of course it looks very tough but does anybody know if it's actually as ridiculous as it looks? I'd put down the Cziffra Tristch-Tratsch and the Danube as contenders but I'm not sure. At the very least, his pieces have some massive jumps.


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## Dimace

The most difficult piano pieces ever composed are Beethovens Sonatas and Concertos. With practice you can tame technical difficulties. Interpretation difficulties many times demand a life time. I have listened many good Gaspards and Islameys but only very few Apassionatas…


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## ahinton

So it took 35 posts before the name of Sorabji was even mentioned, which surprises me not a little!

However, that sinlge reference so far includes "_Opus Clavicembalisticum_ is over four hours long and unperformed in a sitting"; I do not know what this means, because the piece has so far received no less than 23 complete public performances - one by the composer (the première), one by Hiroaki Ooi, two by John Ogdon, three by Daan Vandewalle, six by Geoffrey Dougls Madge and ten by Jonathan Powell. Sorabji's second longest piano work, his _Sequentia Cyclica super Dies Iræ_, is almost twice the length of _Opus Clavicembalisticum_ - it runs to 500 minutes - but even this has to date received five complete performances, all at the hands of Jonathan Powell, commencing with the première in 2010 (curiously in the same city as Opus Clavicembalisticum was premièred almost 80 years earlier - Glasgow); Jonathan has also recorded it but this recording - a 7-CD boxed set - awaits release. The longest public performance of a Sorabji work ever to have been given is not for piano; it is his Organ Symphony No. 2 which, in Kevin Bowyer's première (also in 2010 in Glasgow), took 540 minutes, but Kevin, who plans to perform it again next year, believes that this can be tightened up to less than 8 hours. The technical demands of both of these works are at the outer edges of possibility but that's not precluded their performances.


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## david johnson

I find lifting the piano to be the hardest work...


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## ahinton

david johnson said:


> I find lifting the piano to be the hardest work...


Then why not leave that to someone else? (especially when the instrument is a Bösendorfer 290 or Rubenstein)...


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## MelodicMi88

I’m delighted to see soon respondents have brought out for topic of DIFFERENT kinds of difficult or hard to perform aspects of piano repertoire. There’s also the question of WHY do you want to work on a difficult to play piece of music . Do you feel compelled to expand your technique two physically handle the instrument ? Are you seeking and interpretive challenge ? Personally I find all of Chopin’s Etudes make commands both interpretively and technically — especially interpretively I can’t be played through mechanically and of course Chopin’s superlative musical content will be there But they hold so very much of the best of Chopin’s deeply felt musical content! The scope of interpretive input Is so lacking in many performances of this set


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## Larkenfield

Crystal said:


> I'm curious about the hardest piano work. Please tell me and I can try it, to know my skills.


That's easy. Satie's _Vexations_ bears the inscription: "In order to play the theme 840 times in succession, it would be advisable to prepare oneself beforehand, and in the deepest silence, by serious immobilities." Playing it is a matter of high concentration and an iron will rather than simply having swift fingers.


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## rbacce

This one seems almost impossible to me:


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## Jhawn55

Beethoven Piano Sonata Opus 111. There’s nothing like it.


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## Jhawn55

You are correct. Virtuosity and being able to play musically aren’t necessarily the same thing.


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## Jhawn55

So true. One of the piano professors at my music school did this. This can happen to the most experienced players.


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## DavidA

ahinton said:


> So it took 35 posts before the name of Sorabji was even mentioned, which surprises me not a little!
> 
> However, that sinlge reference so far includes "_Opus Clavicembalisticum_ is over four hours long and unperformed in a sitting"; I do not know what this means, because the piece has so far received no less than 23 complete public performances - one by the composer (the première), one by Hiroaki Ooi, two by John Ogdon, three by Daan Vandewalle, six by Geoffrey Dougls Madge and ten by Jonathan Powell. Sorabji's second longest piano work, his _Sequentia Cyclica super Dies Iræ_, is almost twice the length of _Opus Clavicembalisticum_ - it runs to 500 minutes - but even this has to date received five complete performances, all at the hands of Jonathan Powell, commencing with the première in 2010 (curiously in the same city as Opus Clavicembalisticum was premièred almost 80 years earlier - Glasgow); Jonathan has also recorded it but this recording - a 7-CD boxed set - awaits release. The longest public performance of a Sorabji work ever to have been given is not for piano; it is his Organ Symphony No. 2 which, in Kevin Bowyer's première (also in 2010 in Glasgow), took 540 minutes, but Kevin, who plans to perform it again next year, believes that this can be tightened up to less than 8 hours. The technical demands of both of these works are at the outer edges of possibility but that's not precluded their performances.


I know Ogdon sight read the piece when he first got it, straight through. Of course anyone can write music which is difficult to play. Whether it is worth listening for that time to is another matter


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## ahinton

DavidA said:


> I know Ogdon sight read the piece when he first got it, straight through. Of course anyone can write music which is difficult to play. Whether it is worth listening for that time to is another matter


...and a matter on which the opinion of those who have done so - especially those who have done so more than once - is the one that counts!


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## joen_cph

There's also Sorabji's _100 Transcendental Etudes_, currently being recorded by Ullen for BIS. The cycle will probably amount to around 6 CDs.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transcendental_Studies_(Sorabji)
http://www.sorabji-archive.co.uk/recordings/CD.php?cdid=40

And Michael Finnissy's works in general (concertos, solo pieces, _36 Verdi Transcriptions_, _The History of Photography_ ... )
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Finnissy


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## ahinton

joen_cph said:


> There's also Sorabji's _100 Transcendental Etudes_, currently being recorded by Ullen for BIS. The cycle will probably amount to around 6 CDs.
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transcendental_Studies_(Sorabji)
> http://www.sorabji-archive.co.uk/recordings/CD.php?cdid=40


It will be 7 CDs of which five have already been out for some time.


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## joen_cph

The remaining nos 84-100 are estimated to around 90 minutes, not 80 as I thought at first. They'll probably supplement with some further pieces.


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## Schoenberg

Holden4th said:


> I've heard that the Beethoven symphony transcriptions by Liszt are well up there for technical difficulty....and while we're talking Liszt there is the Rhapsodie Espagnole. Just looking at the sheet music makes my eyes water....


Liszt's transcriptions may be difficult, but I wouldn't consider them anywhere near the most difficult piano works.
(Perhaps that's just because of my larger than average hands, though. And perhaps because I have only tried the 5th, 6th, 7th, and 9th.)


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## JasonHolloway

The piano work is difficult if you don't know the techniques of playing the instrument. Once you become a master in piano then none of the tunes are hard and you can also play the tunes like Liszt without any confusions.


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## nobilmente

Animal the Drummer said:


> "Mazeppa" from Liszt's "Transcendental Etudes" must be high on the list. I once heard Trifonov play the whole set live and even he had trouble with this one.


From that set, I think _Feux Follets_ is trickier.


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## ahinton

nobilmente said:


> From that set, I think _Feux Follets_ is trickier.


I agree! - especially if, as in these performances (all by the same pianist and the last in an unsympathetic acoustic), the delicacy implicit in the title remains to the fore despite the requisite precision of phrasing and articulation:


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## TapeMeasureTobias

I'm rather surprised at the diversity of opinion in this thread; I thought that everybody would say either Ravel's Gaspard de la Nuit or Balakirev's Islamey.


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## flamencosketches

TapeMeasureTobias said:


> I'm rather surprised at the diversity of opinion in this thread; I thought that everybody would say either Ravel's Gaspard de la Nuit or Balakirev's Islamey.


Gaspard is DAMN hard. Balakirev's Islamey was probably the hardest ever when it was written, but I think it's been topped.

Anyway, for something MUCH harder than those two:






Insanity....


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## agoukass

I don't know if anyone has mentioned this yet, but Ronald Stevenson's Passcaglia on DSCH is one of the most difficult pieces in the repertoire since it requires tremendous stamina (1.5 hours of nonstop playing) and virtuosity from the performer.


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## flamencosketches

agoukass said:


> I don't know if anyone has mentioned this yet, but Ronald Stevenson's Passcaglia on DSCH is one of the most difficult pieces in the repertoire since it requires tremendous stamina (1.5 hours of nonstop playing) and virtuosity from the performer.


Someone mentioned that in another thread today... I listened to a bit of it. Kind of blew my mind. One would have to be pretty crazy to write a piece of music like that...


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## chu42

To clear things up, the difficulty list for the top 100 ought to look something like this:

Sorabji- Symphonic Variations/Symphonies for Piano
Sorabji- Opus Clavicembalisticum
Finissy- A History of Photography in Music
Sorabji- Piano Concerto
Sorabji- Piano Sonatas
Martino- Pianississimo
Finnissy- Piano Concerto No.4
Ligeti- Piano Concerto
Rautavaara- Piano Concerto No.1
Stockhausen- Klavierstücke 1-X
Busoni- Piano Concerto
Alkan- Concerto for Solo Piano
Xenakis- Synaphai	
Carter- Piano Concerto
Messiaen- Vingt Regards sur l’Enfant-Jésus
Hamelin- Etudes
Ferneyhough- Lemma-Icon-Epigram
Liszt- Études d'exécution transcendante d'après Paganini
Barber- Piano Concerto
Ligeti- Etudes
Alkan- Le Preux
Xenakis- Mist
Busoni- Fantasia contrappuntistica
Bolcom- Twelve New Etudes
Feinberg- Piano Sonatas
Finnissy- English Country Tunes
Bartok- Piano Concerto No.2
Szymanowski- Etudes Op.33 
Stevenson- Passacaglia
Ginastera- Piano Concerto No.1
Alkan- Trois Grandes Études
Meraux- “Bravura” Etude
Hamelin- Etudes
Boulez- Piano Sonatas
Hamelin- Variations on a Theme by Paganini
Penderecki- Piano Concerto
Messiaen- Oiseaux Exotique
Chopin-Godowsky- Studies on Chopin
Schoenberg- Piano Concerto
Villa-Lobos- Rudepoema
Mereaux- Etude No.45
Beethoven-Liszt- Symphonies
Prokofiev- Piano Concerto No.2
Beethoven- Hammerklavier Sonata
Ives- Concord Sonata
Rachmaninov- Piano Concerto No.3
Liszt- Grandes études de Paganini
Vine- Sonata No.1
Ornstein- Danse Sauvage
Berlioz-Liszt- Symphonie Fantastique
Alkan- Scherzo Focoso
Mozart-Liszt- Reminiscences de Don Juan
Brahms- Variations on a Theme of Paganini
Godowsky- Passacaglia
Ravel- Gaspard de la nuit
Liszt- Transcendental Etudes 
Prokofiev- Piano Sonatas
Chopin-Rosenthal- Minute Waltz
Lutoslawski- Two Studies
Alkan- Comme Le Vent
Crumb- Makrokosmos I/II
Brahms- Concerto No.2
Alkan- Grand Sonata
Balakirev- Islamey
Wagner-Liszt- Tannhauser Transcription 
Babbitt- Piano Concerto
Liszt- Grande Fantaisie de Bravoure sur la Clochette de Paganini
Prokofiev- Piano Concerto No.3
Sciarrino- Piano Sonatas
Rachmaninov- Rhapsody on a Theme of Paganini
Liszt- Sonata in B Minor
Strauss- Burleske
Scriabin- Piano Sonatas
Stravinsky- Trois mouvements de Petrouchka
Alkan- Le Festin d'esope
Ravel- Piano Concerto for the Left Hand
Rossini-Cziffra- William Tell Overture
Liszt- Rondo Fantastique
Godowsky- Etudes
Rachmaninov- Piano Sonatas
Alkan- Symphony for Solo Piano
Mozart-Volodos- Turkish March
Kapustin- Piano Concerto No.6
Rachmaninov- Scherzo from Midsummer’s Night Dream
Prokofiev- Toccata
Rachmaninov- Etudes Tableaux
Tchaikovsky- Piano Concerto No.1
Franck- Violin Sonata
Khachaturian-Cziffra- Sabre Dance
Chopin- Piano Sonatas
Chopin- Etudes Op.10, Op.25
Franck- Symphonic Variations
Schumann- Toccata
Liszt- Reminiscences de Norma
Moszkowski- Piano Concerto No.2
Albeniz- Iberia
Schubert- Wanderer Fantasy
Ravel- Toccata
Ginastera- Toccata
Scriabin- Vers la Flamme
Alkan- Etudes Op.35
Kapustin- Preludes and Fugues


----------



## caters

Hardest? Try Chopin's "Octave" etude. Not only are there lots of octaves, but you have to play them legato.


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## ahinton

chu42 said:


> To clear things up, the difficulty list for the top 100 ought to look something like this:
> 
> Sorabji- Symphonic Variations/Symphonies for Piano
> Sorabji- Opus Clavicembalisticum
> Finissy- A History of Photography in Music
> Sorabji- Piano Concerto
> Sorabji- Piano Sonatas
> Martino- Pianississimo
> Finnissy- Piano Concerto No.4
> Ligeti- Piano Concerto
> Rautavaara- Piano Concerto No.1
> Stockhausen- Klavierstücke 1-X
> Busoni- Piano Concerto
> Alkan- Concerto for Solo Piano
> Xenakis- Synaphai
> Carter- Piano Concerto
> Messiaen- Vingt Regards sur l'Enfant-Jésus
> Hamelin- Etudes
> Ferneyhough- Lemma-Icon-Epigram
> Liszt- Études d'exécution transcendante d'après Paganini
> Barber- Piano Concerto
> Ligeti- Etudes
> Alkan- Le Preux
> Xenakis- Mist
> Busoni- Fantasia contrappuntistica
> Bolcom- Twelve New Etudes
> Feinberg- Piano Sonatas
> Finnissy- English Country Tunes
> Bartok- Piano Concerto No.2
> Szymanowski- Etudes Op.33
> Stevenson- Passacaglia
> Ginastera- Piano Concerto No.1
> Alkan- Trois Grandes Études
> Meraux- "Bravura" Etude
> Hamelin- Etudes
> Boulez- Piano Sonatas
> Hamelin- Variations on a Theme by Paganini
> Penderecki- Piano Concerto
> Messiaen- Oiseaux Exotique
> Chopin-Godowsky- Studies on Chopin
> Schoenberg- Piano Concerto
> Villa-Lobos- Rudepoema
> Mereaux- Etude No.45
> Beethoven-Liszt- Symphonies
> Prokofiev- Piano Concerto No.2
> Beethoven- Hammerklavier Sonata
> Ives- Concord Sonata
> Rachmaninov- Piano Concerto No.3
> Liszt- Grandes études de Paganini
> Vine- Sonata No.1
> Ornstein- Danse Sauvage
> Berlioz-Liszt- Symphonie Fantastique
> Alkan- Scherzo Focoso
> Mozart-Liszt- Reminiscences de Don Juan
> Brahms- Variations on a Theme of Paganini
> Godowsky- Passacaglia
> Ravel- Gaspard de la nuit
> Liszt- Transcendental Etudes
> Prokofiev- Piano Sonatas
> Chopin-Rosenthal- Minute Waltz
> Lutoslawski- Two Studies
> Alkan- Comme Le Vent
> Crumb- Makrokosmos I/II
> Brahms- Concerto No.2
> Alkan- Grand Sonata
> Balakirev- Islamey
> Wagner-Liszt- Tannhauser Transcription
> Babbitt- Piano Concerto
> Liszt- Grande Fantaisie de Bravoure sur la Clochette de Paganini
> Prokofiev- Piano Concerto No.3
> Sciarrino- Piano Sonatas
> Rachmaninov- Rhapsody on a Theme of Paganini
> Liszt- Sonata in B Minor
> Strauss- Burleske
> Scriabin- Piano Sonatas
> Stravinsky- Trois mouvements de Petrouchka
> Alkan- Le Festin d'esope
> Ravel- Piano Concerto for the Left Hand
> Rossini-Cziffra- William Tell Overture
> Liszt- Rondo Fantastique
> Godowsky- Etudes
> Rachmaninov- Piano Sonatas
> Alkan- Symphony for Solo Piano
> Mozart-Volodos- Turkish March
> Kapustin- Piano Concerto No.6
> Rachmaninov- Scherzo from Midsummer's Night Dream
> Prokofiev- Toccata
> Rachmaninov- Etudes Tableaux
> Tchaikovsky- Piano Concerto No.1
> Franck- Violin Sonata
> Khachaturian-Cziffra- Sabre Dance
> Chopin- Piano Sonatas
> Chopin- Etudes Op.10, Op.25
> Franck- Symphonic Variations
> Schumann- Toccata
> Liszt- Reminiscences de Norma
> Moszkowski- Piano Concerto No.2
> Albeniz- Iberia
> Schubert- Wanderer Fantasy
> Ravel- Toccata
> Ginastera- Toccata
> Scriabin- Vers la Flamme
> Alkan- Etudes Op.35
> Kapustin- Preludes and Fugues


I take you to mean this in no particular order of difficulty, otherwise Szymanowski's studies wold not be above the Chopin/Godowsky ones!

Just a few small corrections:

Finnissy has two "n"s and his 5½ hour piano works is A history of photography in sound.
Sorabji wrote eight works for piano and orchestra titled "concerto"; do you mean the published one (i.e. no. 5)?
"Meraux" should read "Méreaux"
What do you have in mind by your reference to "Godowsky- Etudes", as the Chopin/Godowsky ones are already mentioned further up your list?

From what I've been told, (although it's hardly for me to say), the list might perhaps be extended to 101 to include my own Étude en forme de Chopin...


----------



## chu42

ahinton said:


> I take you to mean this in no particular order of difficulty, otherwise Szymanowski's studies wold not be above the Chopin/Godowsky ones!
> 
> Just a few small corrections:
> 
> Finnissy has two "n"s and his 5½ hour piano works is A history of photography in sound.
> Sorabji wrote eight works for piano and orchestra titled "concerto"; do you mean the published one (i.e. no. 5)?
> "Meraux" should read "Méreaux"
> What do you have in mind by your reference to "Godowsky- Etudes", as the Chopin/Godowsky ones are already mentioned further up your list?
> 
> From what I've been told, (although it's hardly for me to say), the list might perhaps be extended to 101 to include my own Étude en forme de Chopin...


Very rough, old, edition of my list that has since been updated and reformed. Nearly pointless list anyhow. I do try to include more variety over accuracy, because God knows that this list could consist entirely of Sorabji and the like.

Still rough, order very approximate. Just a bunch of difficult pieces that might prove interesting, I guess. I made this list in the first place because too many people were plugging La Campanella as the most difficult piece.

Sorabji- Symphonic Variations/Symphonies for Piano
Sorabji- Opus Clavicembalisticum
Finissy- A History of Photography in Music
Sorabji- Piano Concerto
Sorabji- Piano Sonatas
Martino- Pianississimo
Finnissy- Piano Concerto No.4
Ligeti- Piano Concerto
Rautavaara- Piano Concerto No.1
Stockhausen- Klavierstücke 1-X
Busoni- Piano Concerto
Alkan- Etudes Op.39
Xenakis- Synaphai	
Carter- Piano Concerto
Messiaen- Vingt Regards sur l'Enfant-Jésus
Alkan- Trois Grandes Études
Chopin-Godowsky- Studies on Chopin
Ferneyhough- Lemma-Icon-Epigram
Barber- Piano Concerto
Ligeti- Etudes
Xenakis- Mist
Busoni- Fantasia contrappuntistica
Reger- Bach Variations
Bolcom- Twelve New Etudes
Feinberg- Piano Sonatas
Finnissy- English Country Tunes
Bartok- Piano Concerto No.2
Ginastera- Piano Concerto No.1
Hamelin- Etudes
Boulez- Piano Sonatas
Penderecki- Piano Concerto
Szymanowski- Etudes Op.33 
Messiaen- Oiseaux Exotique
Schoenberg- Piano Concerto
Villa-Lobos- Rudepoema
Méreaux- Etude No.45
Beethoven-Liszt- Symphonies
Prokofiev- Piano Concerto No.2
Beethoven- Hammerklavier Sonata
Ives- Concord Sonata
Rachmaninov- Piano Concerto No.3
Liszt- Transcendental études on Paganini
Vine- Sonata No.1
Berlioz-Liszt- Symphonie Fantastique
Alkan- Scherzo Focoso
Mozart-Liszt- Reminiscences de Don Juan
Brahms- Variations on a Theme of Paganini
Godowsky- Passacaglia
Ravel- Gaspard de la nuit
Liszt- Transcendental Etudes 
Prokofiev- Piano Sonatas
Lutoslawski- Two Studies
Crumb- Makrokosmos I/II
Brahms- Concerto No.2
Alkan- Grand Sonata
Balakirev- Islamey
Wagner-Liszt- Tannhauser Transcription 
Prokofiev- Piano Concerto No.3
Sciarrino- Piano Sonatas
Rachmaninov- Rhapsody on a Theme of Paganini
Liszt- Sonata in B Minor
Strauss- Burleske
Scriabin- Piano Sonatas
Stravinsky- Trois mouvements de Petrouchka
Alkan- Le Festin d'esope
Ravel- Piano Concerto for the Left Hand
Alkan- Le Preux
Liszt- Rondo Fantastique
Tchaikovsky- Piano Concerto No.1
Godowsky- Etudes
Rachmaninov- Piano Sonatas
Rachmaninov- Scherzo from Midsummer's Night Dream
Rachmaninov- Etudes Tableaux
Franck- Violin Sonata
Khachaturian-Cziffra- Sabre Dance
Chopin- Piano Sonatas
Chopin- Etudes Op.10, Op.25
Franck- Symphonic Variations
Schumann- Toccata
Liszt- Reminiscences de Norma
Moszkowski- Piano Concerto No.2
Rossini-Cziffra- William Tell Overture
Albeniz- Iberia
Schubert- Wanderer Fantasy
Ginastera- Toccata
Scriabin- Vers la Flamme
Alkan- Etudes Op.35
Kapustin- Preludes and Fugues


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## Phil loves classical

rbacce said:


> This one seems almost impossible to me:


For a pro pianist this is not that difficult. The hardest part is to ignore the extraneous markings, they are just for show or a musical political agenda. I thought it was funny how he even specified something at 1/2 sustain and another at 3/4.


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## chu42

Phil loves classical said:


> For a pro pianist this is not that difficult. The hardest part is to ignore the extraneous markings, they are just for show or a musical political agenda. I thought it was funny how he even specified something at 1/2 sustain and another at 3/4.


The problem is that if we take it at face value then it is likely one of the most difficult pieces. Overall, I don't have a high opinion of Ferneyhough, I think he's somewhat better than Finnissy but he's not nearly as good as his forerunners Sorabji and Charles Ives.






Honestly, nothing needs to be more difficult than this, unless you can make it as beautiful.


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## Larkenfield

Phil loves classical said:


> For a pro pianist this is not that difficult. The hardest part is to ignore the extraneous markings, they are just for show or a musical political agenda. I thought it was funny how he even specified something at 1/2 sustain and another at 3/4.


 How do you know it's not that difficult? And who have you talked with about it? How many pianists that you know have even tried it? This manuscript is all over the place and it's a mess to get through just by looking at it. Not that difficult. Whatever its musical value may be, it's a technical nightmare and would require weeks or even months to perfect. Ask them how weeks or months it took to learn... and that includes the thousand and one details written into the manuscript that are obviously meant to be played and not ignored. Let's give any pianist tremendous credit for tackling something this technically harrowing.


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## Phil loves classical

Larkenfield said:


> How do you know it's not that difficult? And who have you talked with about it? How many pianists that you know have even tried it? This manuscript is all over the place and it's a mess to get through just by looking at it. Not that difficult. Whatever its musical value may be, it's a technical nightmare and would require weeks or even months to perfect. Ask them how weeks or months it took to learn... and that includes the thousand and one details written into the manuscript that are obviously meant to be played and not ignored. Let's give any pianist tremendous credit for tackling something this technically harrowing.


A lot of markings are unneccessary, and could be cleaned up if he wanted to. He is really making it more seem difficult than it is, compared to other difficult pieces, of course. It is really not much different than this. As in the recent thread in music theory, Ferneyhough doesn't expect it to be followed to the letter (in fact it wouldn't make sense to).


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## Phil loves classical

Larkenfield said:


> How do you know it's not that difficult? And who have you talked with about it? How many pianists that you know have even tried it? This manuscript is all over the place and it's a mess to get through just by looking at it. Not that difficult. Whatever its musical value may be, it's a technical nightmare and would require weeks or even months to perfect. Ask them how weeks or months it took to learn... and that includes the thousand and one details written into the manuscript that are obviously meant to be played and not ignored. Let's give any pianist tremendous credit for tackling something this technically harrowing.


A lot of markings are unneccessary, and could be cleaned up if he wanted to. He is really making it seem more difficult than it is, compared to other difficult pieces, of course. It is really not much different than this, which is much less conventional in density and rhythm and require more awkward hand positions. The Ferneyhough flows more easily. As in the recent thread in music theory, Ferneyhough doesn't expect it to be followed to the letter (in fact it wouldn't make sense to).


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## joen_cph

Besides the incredible set of 100 Sorabji etudes, Skalkottas' 32 Piano Pieces and some of Wuorinen's works (Concerto 3 etc) also have a reputation for being exceedingly difficult. 
Didn't know that Beethoven/Liszt Symphonies were, thought they were more for household use. But I guess there's a lot of voices ...

And Nørgård's brilliant Concerto in Due Tempi ...


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## Phil loves classical

Here is a performance of both Music of Changes and the Ferneyhough I've just found. See what I mean about the awkward hand positions of the Cage?


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## chu42

If we were to limit the selection to pre-Modernism and Serialism then the most difficult piece may very well be Alkan's Op.76 Trois Grandes Etudes, particularly the second piece in the set. Otherwise, we have Busoni's mammoth Concerto and Reger's Bach variations, plus some Liszt monstrosities. What's great about these works is that they don't sacrifice musicality for difficulty like many pieces of New Complexity are apt to do.

Alkan's Introduction, Variations and Finale: 22 minutes of hell for the right hand that is well thought out, creative, and elegant- much more than can be said about many other pieces of Alkan.


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## TwoFlutesOneTrumpet

No one has mentioned a Bach fugue. A couple from the WTC come to mind. Surely a fugue in 4 (or even 3) parts would be extremely difficult.


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## chu42

Bach himself had more difficult fugues in the Art of Fugue, and while all his fugues are not easy, other composers have had far more difficult fugues:

Busoni Fantasia Contrappuntistica- Fuga III is nearly impossible.





Reger Variations and Fugue on a theme of Bach:





Sorabji has some very dense fugues here and there, and of course Beethoven has the Hammerklavier 4th movement.


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## Bwv 1080

Ian Pace wrote of Richard Barrett's Tract:
http://www.musicweb-international.com/SandH/2001/Feb01/pace1.htm

_As for the greatest challenge, beyond any doubt that is provided by Tract. It's one of the hardest piano pieces ever written, in a way I would describe as 'transcendental' - meaning a difficulty that lies on the very fringes of possibility. There are a number of such 'transcendental' pieces that come to mind: Xenakis Evryali, and some of the piano parts in works such as Eonta, Synaphai and Keqrops, several works of Michael Finnissy such as English Country Tunes, all.fall.down, some of the Verdi Transcriptions and the Piano Concerto No. 4, Clarence Barlow's Çogluotobüsisletmesi, Walter Zimmermann's Wüstenwanderung (which I have recorded for Metier). A few other pieces skirt the border of this category: the beginning of Stockhausen's Klavierstück X, Bussotti's Pour Clavier. All the other pieces pose great pianistic challenges, but not in that league of difficulty._


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## hammeredklavier

TwoFlutesOneTrumpet said:


> No one has mentioned a Bach fugue. A couple from the WTC come to mind. Surely a fugue in 4 (or even 3) parts would be extremely difficult.


In terms of technicality and physical demand on the player, WTC is not that hard compared to the ones in chu42's list


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## chu42

joen_cph said:


> Besides the incredible set of 100 Sorabji etudes, Skalkottas' 32 Piano Pieces and some of Wuorinen's works (Concerto 3 etc) also have a reputation for being exceedingly difficult.
> Didn't know that Beethoven/Liszt Symphonies were, thought they were more for household use. But I guess there's a lot of voices ...
> 
> And Nørgård's brilliant Concerto in Due Tempi ...


As far as Classical/Romantic music goes, the Liszt Beethoven symphonies are horrific. So many different things to voice (distinguish between the singers and the orchestra) and technical hazards throughout.

This section in particular has some ridiculous challenges:






Now keep in mind that the work itself is over 70 minutes of this kind of stuff...

And Symphony No.7 is no walk in the park either. Just listen to the voicing.


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## chrismaninoff

I think that if you want to classify technical challenge overall, you have to come up with metrics for difficulty. For instance, some that I can think of would be:

Endurance required - some of the hardest pieces by this metric being Mazeppa, Chopin Op. 10 no. 2, Schubert's "Erlkonig," Tchaik 
Difficulty reading/understanding the score - serialist music, Xenakis, Ferneyhough
Complexity and speed of muscle movements required - Liszt's Feux Follets, Ravel's Scarbo, Islamey, Rach 3rd Concerto
Level of precision required - Chopin Concerti, etudes
Unfamiliarity of muscle movements required - Schoenberg "Pierrot Lunaire," Xenakis
Interpretive/emotional difficulties - Mozart, late Brahms and Beethoven, etc. 

I think that we can discount interpretive difficulties on a thread like this, since we are wondering which pieces are the most difficult to simply sit down and perform all the way through at tempo in such a way that we aren't worried about the performer making it through. 

If this sounds good to you, I think that we then need to establish which pieces rank overall highest on the maximum number of metrics. So for instance Liszt's Mazeppa might be a 10 in terms of endurance, a 6 in difficulty of score reading, an 8 in terms of complex muscle coordination, a 5 in terms of precision required, and a 4 in terms of unfamiliarity of technical challenges. This might rate high compared to most things, but to me Feux Follets would rank higher because although it is easier from an endurance standpoint, it is not so easy given the complexity of some of the figurations. 

Of course, depending on the specific pianist, some challenges are much less of a hurdle than others. For instance, I myself have good technique and something like Mazeppa is not too scary to approach. But give me some 40-minute serialist monstrosity to prepare, and even if the technical challenges aren't so bad, my comparative lack of familiarity with reading those chords, melodic ideas and so on will mean a longer prep time.


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## Phil loves classical

chrismaninoff said:


> I think that if you want to classify technical challenge overall, you have to come up with metrics for difficulty. For instance, some that I can think of would be:
> 
> Endurance required - some of the hardest pieces by this metric being Mazeppa, Chopin Op. 10 no. 2, Schubert's "Erlkonig," Tchaik
> Difficulty reading/understanding the score - serialist music, Xenakis, Ferneyhough
> Complexity and speed of muscle movements required - Liszt's Feux Follets, Ravel's Scarbo, Islamey, Rach 3rd Concerto
> Level of precision required - Chopin Concerti, etudes
> Unfamiliarity of muscle movements required - Schoenberg "Pierrot Lunaire," Xenakis
> Interpretive/emotional difficulties - Mozart, late Brahms and Beethoven, etc.
> 
> I think that we can discount interpretive difficulties on a thread like this, since we are wondering which pieces are the most difficult to simply sit down and perform all the way through at tempo in such a way that we aren't worried about the performer making it through.
> 
> If this sounds good to you, I think that we then need to establish which pieces rank overall highest on the maximum number of metrics. So for instance Liszt's Mazeppa might be a 10 in terms of endurance, a 6 in difficulty of score reading, an 8 in terms of complex muscle coordination, a 5 in terms of precision required, and a 4 in terms of unfamiliarity of technical challenges. This might rate high compared to most things, but to me Feux Follets would rank higher because although it is easier from an endurance standpoint, it is not so easy given the complexity of some of the figurations.
> 
> Of course, depending on the specific pianist, some challenges are much less of a hurdle than others. For instance, I myself have good technique and something like Mazeppa is not too scary to approach. But give me some 40-minute serialist monstrosity to prepare, and even if the technical challenges aren't so bad, my comparative lack of familiarity with reading those chords, melodic ideas and so on will mean a longer prep time.


I have a couple of short scores I wrote I was wondering about a few parts if they were playable (I'd imagine so, but maybe not). Could I personal message you? Nothing serious, just out of curiousity.


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## consuono

rbacce said:


> This one seems almost impossible to me:


With stuff like that I don't know how you know if you've hit a wrong note. The composer probably wouldn't even be able to tell.

Not strictly piano music, but my vote would be for the Goldberg Variations. Extreme precision required, and no hiding behind the sustain pedal. Bach will find you out. Mozart, too.


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## DavidA

I was listening to the BBC record review the other day and someone had made a recording of a work by Sorabji which went on for several hours. Providing great difficulties for the pianist and the listener. I just wonder who is mad enough to listen to this sort of wildly uninspiring stuff let alone play it.


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## Allegro Con Brio

According to pure technical demands it would almost certainly have to be something by Sorabji or Liszt, Alkan’s Concerto or Symphony for solo piano, or Balakirev’s Islamey (Balakirev actually set out to write the hardest piano work in existence). Last year I was in a piano competition where I thought I performed well and had a chance at a high score. Then, the winners were announced. The ones who took home the prize played Islamey and Liszt’s Hungarian Rhapsody No. 12 - two of the most cruelly demanding works in the repertoire. It was then that I realized I didn’t have a fighting chance in the professional music world and that I'm content to hopelessly mangle Beethoven’s Pathetique for my own enjoyment from now on


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## Sequentia

DavidA said:


> I was listening to the BBC record review the other day and someone had made a recording of a work by Sorabji which went on for several hours. Providing great difficulties for the pianist and the listener. I just wonder who is mad enough to listen to this sort of wildly uninspiring stuff let alone play it.


And how do you figure it is "uninspiring", since you are (presumably) unwilling to listen to it? Just curious...


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## ahinton

DavidA said:


> I was listening to the BBC record review the other day and someone had made a recording of a work by Sorabji which went on for several hours. Providing great difficulties for the pianist and the listener. I just wonder who is mad enough to listen to this sort of wildly uninspiring stuff let alone play it.


Since you ask, here are some in terms of listeners, for starters:
https://www.piano-classics.com/articles/s/sorabji-sequentia-cyclica/
https://www.officialcharts.com/charts/specialist-classical-chart/
https://www.amazon.es/gp/bestsellers/music/661544031/ref=pd_zg_hrsr_music
https://artmusiclounge.wordpress.com/ 
https://rp-online.de/kultur/kaikhos...equentia-cyclica-super-dies-irae_aid-48483529
https://www.prestomusic.com/classic...-selections-boxed-set-selections-january-2020

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1215445237109116929https://www.deutschlandfunk.de/klas...uschungen.2825.de.html?dram:article_id=473231
http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2020/Apr/Sorabji_sequentia_PCL10206.htm
https://www.gramophone.co.uk/review/sorabji-sequentia-cyclica
http://www.artalinna.com/?p=13069
https://www.limelightmagazine.com.au/reviews/sorabji-sequentia-cyclica-jonathan-powell/

As for those who play it, this particular work has so far been taken up by just one pianist, the one who has recorded it and given several performances of it, but I don't see that as any kind of value judgement. Perhaps you might be advised to do some homework before making statements such as you have here.


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## ahinton

Sequentia said:


> And how do you figure it is "uninspiring", since you are (presumably) unwilling to listen to it? Just curious...


Presenting personal opinions based upon questionable qualifications as though incontrovertible fact is sadly quite a common practice in certain quarters, DavidA's post here being as effective an illustration as any, I imagine...


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## consuono

ahinton said:


> Presenting personal opinions based upon questionable qualifications as though incontrovertible fact is sadly quite a common practice in certain quarters, DavidA's post here being as effective an illustration as any, I imagine...


It's the subjective nature of musical judgement and the nature of online discussion boards. I likewise don't find Sorabji's music to be very "inspiring", and yes I've listened to some of it. If I have to have further qualifications then...sorry. If you like his work, that's fine.


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## ahinton

consuono said:


> It's the subjective nature of musical judgement and the nature of online discussion boards. I likewise don't find Sorabji's music to be very "inspiring", and yes I've listened to some of it. If I have to have further qualifications then...sorry. If you like his work, that's fine.


Your response is entirely different in that you're clarifying that Sorabji's music, to some of which you've listened, doesn't appeal to you and so it is quit clear that what you're writing is a personal opinion that does not pretend to be anything other than that.

DavidA, on the other hand, wrote
"I just wonder who is mad enough to listen to this sort of wildly uninspiring stuff let alone play it".
From this, the music's alleged "uninspiring" quality and the question as to who would be "mad enough" to listen to it or to play it is presented as fact rather than personal opinion (other than the fact that his sentence commences with "I"; it is also obvious to anyone who has read of listened to a review of the recording who has played it.

Had he instead written something along the lines of "this music doesn't appeal to me and I imagine that it might appeal to limited numbers of listeners and even more limited numbers of performers with predilections for lengthy, complex piano writing" that would have been different.

As of today, two more reviews have come my way. One is at
http://www.sequenza21.com/2020/05/jonathan-powell-plays-sorabji-cd-review/
and the other is from _International Piano_ magazine for which I cannot find the URL but whose text reads

"*Sorabji Sequentia Cyclica Jonathan Powell (pf) Piano Classics PCL10206 - 7 CDs*

Born in the north-east London suburb of Chingford, Kaikhosru Shapurji Sorabji (1892-1988) was one of the most quixotic yet visionary composers of the 20th century.

Sorabji was little performed in his own lifetime, partly due to his own directive: he was distressed by inadequate interpretations, though his complex and often lengthy scores place heavy demands on performers. He eventually allowed his piano music to be played by Yonty Solomon and John Ogdon.

Comprising 27 variations on the _Dies Irae_ and Requiem Mass plainchants and lasting eight-and-a-half-hours, _Sequentia Cyclica_ is Sorabji's longest solo piano work _[it isn't, actually; it's his second longest!]_. In the annals of pianistic gigantism, it's exceeded only by his unrecorded Symphonic Variations for Piano and Orchestra _[his Symphonic Variations for piano solo, actually - which is his longest work]_, and works by Fred Rzewski and Jacob Mashak.

Sorabji was inspired by Late Romantic modernism, especially Busoni and the perfumed exoticism of Szymanowski. He dedicated _Sequentia Cyclica_ to Busoni disciple Egon Petri. The music's structures are Baroque, but its tonality is both free and complex. Impressionistic colour is especially apparent in such movements as _Hispanica_ (XV) with its ornate Latin rhythms, and the delightful pastiche _Quasi Debussy_ (XIX). The score is overloaded with ornamentation and calls for extreme virtuosity, yet in this remarkable new recording by Jonathan Powell, it seems to express a deep mysticism. It's tempting to argue, given the composer's background, that Sorabji transferred something of the meditative aesthetic of Indian ragas to the Western classical piano.

Anyone who plays Sorabji has to be an aficionado because of the challenges involved. Powell certainly qualifies for this description. In addition to performances of _Opus Clavicembalisticum_ - by comparison, at five hours _[no - around 4¼, actually]_, almost a repertoire work - Powell has given several public performances of _Sequentia Cyclica_. He is a passionate, immensely able advocate, and never allows Sorabji's gigantism to tip over into excess or hysteria.

Having recently reviewed a Morton Feldman collection featuring the 90-minute _Triadic Memories_, and 70-minute _For Bunita Marcus_ (see _IP_ April, page 77), it's interesting to compare the effect of these heavenly lengths. Feldman generates a distinctive aesthetic from his use of extended timeframes, but I'm not certain the same is true of Sorabji. Powell has been rightly commended for his pacing and control of dynamics, but it would be an unusual listener who could relate that control to the work's totality."

So, in terms of listener appeal, the work itself and Jonathan Powell's remarkable playing of it have certainly attracted that in large measure, as evidence by the critical notices above and by the reception with which it has met in his performances in Glasgow (WP), Ghent, Maastricht, Seattle, New York City, Denver and Chicago.


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## chu42

consuono said:


> It's the subjective nature of musical judgement and the nature of online discussion boards. I likewise don't find Sorabji's music to be very "inspiring", and yes I've listened to some of it. If I have to have further qualifications then...sorry. If you like his work, that's fine.


User ahinton not only likes his work, he was a close acquaintance of Sorabji for many years and the sole preserver of his work! You are talking to the wrong (or right) person when it comes to an argument over Sorabji's musical value.

By the way, if you're having trouble with Sorabji's big stuff you ought to start small with his smaller setpieces which are quite nice.


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## ahinton

chu42 said:


> User ahinton not only likes his work, he was a close acquaintance of Sorabji for many years and the sole preserver of his work! You are talking to the wrong (or right) person when it comes to an argument over Sorabji's musical value.
> 
> By the way, if you're having trouble with Sorabji's big stuff you ought to start small with his smaller setpieces which are quite nice.


There are new corrected typeset editions of the above two works as well as more than 70 other Sorabji scores, all detailed on www.sorabji-archive.co.uk and available by writing to [email protected] .


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## Turangalîla

It's really hard to measure the "most difficult" work as (as has been discussed), there are so many possible metrics to go by. However I am of the opinion that if you combine all of those metrics, the most difficult piece in the repertoire after all these years is still the Hammerklavier sonata.


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## Open Lane

La campanella by Liszt is up there!


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## Rogerx

Liszt: Fantasy on Hungarian Folk-tunes, S123 and Krakowiak - Concert Rondo in F, Op. 14 springing to mind immediately.


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## DavidA

ahinton said:


> Presenting personal opinions based upon questionable qualifications as though incontrovertible fact is sadly quite a common practice in certain quarters, DavidA's post here being as effective an illustration as any, I imagine...


May I ask what qualifications one has to make to find a work uninspiring? Or what research one has to do beyond hearing some of it and finding it particularly tedious? It is an incontrovertible fact that I find it uninspiring.. you may not. But it is a fact I do.


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## ahinton

DavidA said:


> May I ask what qualifications one has to make to find a work uninspiring? Or what research one has to do beyond hearing some of it and finding it particularly tedious? It is an incontrovertible fact that I find it uninspiring.. you may not. But it is a fact I do.


That you do may be a fact - and I have no issues with that; that the work on which you state that you hold such a view is uninspiring is not, however, a fact- it is a personal opinion, to which of course you are perfectly entitled, as long as it is not presented as though a fact capable of recognition by anyone else.


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