# Avery Fisher Hall--Ugh



## Triplets

I just spent a nice weekend in New York. Among other things We attended the Philharmonic Concert. It was my first time in AF Hall. Usually we try to see something at Carnegie.
It was a nice Concert. The Brahms VCS with Lisa Batishevili (sp?), Haydn Symphony 103, and a curtain raiser by Christopher Rouse. The VC was particularly fine.
Seats were main floor, about 2/3 way back. Absolutely the worst acoustics that I have ever heard. The low strings in particular suffered as they congealed into mush. I think the Orchestra could save money by canning the Cellists and double basses because no one would notice their absence by listening.
I have heard the NYP on tour in Chicago and I know they are a great ensemble, but what a sink hole they have for a home!


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## hpowders

Triplets said:


> I just spent a nice weekend in New York. Among other things We attended the Philharmonic Concert. It was my first time in AF Hall. Usually we try to see something at Carnegie.
> It was a nice Concert. The Brahms VCS with Lisa Batishevili (sp?), Haydn Symphony 103, and a curtain raiser by Christopher Rouse. The VC was particularly fine.
> Seats were main floor, about 2/3 way back. Absolutely the worst acoustics that I have ever heard. The low strings in particular suffered as they congealed into mush. I think the Orchestra could save money by canning the Cellists and double basses because no one would notice their absence by listening.
> I have heard the NYP on tour in Chicago and I know they are a great ensemble, but what a sink hole they have for a home!


It's better than it was. I was there when it opened. A scandal! Not only was the sound completely dead but the musicians complained they couldn't hear each other!


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## Vaneyes

I've only had the experience of a rehearsal (NYPO/Masur-Mussorgsky/Dutilleux/Schubert) at AFH. Hall half full--seats 2/3 back. So, I can't opine about before and after.

Re AFH rec. experience with NYPO/Masur, the Vengerov Dvorak VC is heavily compressed, while the Dvorak "New World" is clear and well-balanced.


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## hpowders

I was a NY Philharmonic subscriber at Avery Fisher back when Boulez and Mehta were in charge of the NY Philharmonic and also attended Mostly Mozart performances every summer religiously there for years.

OMG!! What the heck have I done moving to Florida! 

I'll take that awful sound....gladly!


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## Aaconn

Was Avery Fisher designed as a concert hall or as a theater that has a concert shell?


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## Rackon

Aaconn said:


> Was Avery Fisher designed as a concert hall or as a theater that has a concert shell?


Designed as a concert hall. First time I was there for a concert in the '80s I thought the acoustics were shockingly bad - and that was after they'd been majorly tweaked!


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## Orfeo

And I am still not so sure why the deal to move the NYP back to Carnegie Hall collapsed.


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## hpowders

Perhaps because the NY Philharmonic signed a long term lease with Avery Fisher Hall? Also, Carnegie is booked many years in advance with visiting orchestras and recitalists from all over the world. It would be very difficult to rearrange the Carnegie schedule!! Also Carnegie could lose money on the deal.


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## Radames

Here's what wiki says about it. Looks like they may have ruined it by making it bigger.



> Architects hired the acoustical consulting division of Bolt, Beranek and Newman (BBN) to design the interior acoustics for the hall. Based on their experience designing and analyzing existing concert halls, BBN acousticians recommended that the hall be designed as a "shoebox" with narrowly spaced parallel sides (similar in shape to the acoustically acclaimed Symphony Hall, Boston), with seating for no more than 2,400 patrons. Lincoln Center initially agreed with the recommendation, and BBN provided a series of design specifications and recommendations. However, the New York Herald Tribune began a campaign to increase the seating capacity of the new hall and late in the design stage, the hall was expanded to accommodate the critics' desires, invalidating much of BBN's acoustical work.[5] BBN engineers told Lincoln Center management that the hall would sound different from their initial intent, but they could not predict what the changes would do.
> 
> Philharmonic Hall opened September 23, 1962, to mixed reviews. The concert, featuring Leonard Bernstein, the New York Philharmonic, and a host of operatic stars such as Eileen Farrell and Robert Merrill, was televised live on CBS. The opening week of concerts included performances by a specially invited list of guest orchestras (Boston, Philadelphia, and Cleveland), who were regularly appearing at Carnegie Hall each season, as well as the new hall's resident ensemble. Several reporters panned the hall, while at least two conductors praised the acoustics. (While the initial intention had been that Philharmonic Hall would replace Carnegie Hall, which could then be demolished, that scenario of events did not take place.)
> 
> Management made several attempts to remedy the acoustical problems of the new Philharmonic Hall, with little success, leading to plans in the 1970s for a substantial renovation project designed by noted acoustician Cyril Harris with project architect Philip Johnson. These renovations included demolishing the inside of the hall and rebuilding a new hall within the outer framework and facade. While initial reaction to the improvements was favorable, overall feelings about the new hall's sound soured, and the acoustics of Avery Fisher Hall continued to be problematic. One assessment of the acoustics of the hall from Robert C. Ehle stated:
> 
> "The seating capacity is large (around 2,600 seats) and the sidewalls are too far apart to provide early reflections to the center seats. The ceiling is high to increase reverberation time but the clouds are too high to reinforce early reflections adequately. The bass is weak because the very large stage does not adequately reinforce the low string instruments."[6]
> 
> In 1992, under the tenure of Kurt Masur with the New York Philharmonic, several solid maple wood concave surfaces were installed on the side walls and suspended from the ceiling of the stage to improve acoustics. The maple was specially selected to minimize its grain pattern. The new components are filled with fiberglass to deaden vibrations.[7]
> 
> The ongoing problems with the hall's acoustics eventually led the New York Philharmonic to consider a merger with Carnegie Hall in 2003, which would have returned the Philharmonic to Carnegie Hall for most of its concerts each season. However, both sides abandoned talks after only four months.[8][9][10]
> 
> Beginning in 2005 (and continuing in 2006), the Mostly Mozart Festival has experimented with extending the stage for the Mostly Mozart orchestra farther out into the seats from the main stage for the Festival's summer season.[11][12]


I still don't really get it though. Boston's seats 2600 and it sounds good everywhere except the back 10 rows on the floor. Why doesn't everyone just clone Boston's Symphony Hall?


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## Aaconn

It seems like the field of acoustic designing is still more of a mystery than a science, going off of previous designs that worked that were built years before the field existed.


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## hpowders

Yes. All the science needs a lot of luck to succeed.


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## Triplets

I am in Boston for a meeting and will try to get to a Concert before it's over. Best Hall I've heard is Orchestra Hall in Detroit which I narrowly prefer to Vienna Musikvrien and the Rudolfinum in Prague.


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## Radames

Triplets said:


> I am in Boston for a meeting and will try to get to a Concert before it's over. Best Hall I've heard is Orchestra Hall in Detroit which I narrowly prefer to Vienna Musikvrien and the Rudolfinum in Prague.


$9 rush tickets tonight!! I did the concert last Thursday -

Juanjo Mena, conductor
Frank Peter Zimmermann, violin

SIBELIUS Violin Concerto
SCHUBERT Symphony in C, The Great


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## Triplets

Radames said:


> $9 rush tickets tonight!! I did the concert last Thursday -
> 
> Juanjo Mena, conductor
> Frank Peter Zimmermann, violin
> 
> SIBELIUS Violin Concerto
> SCHUBERT Symphony in C, The Great


 $9? Damn, my my wife just made dinner plans for us tonite.


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## Radames

Triplets said:


> $9? Damn, my my wife just made dinner plans for us tonite.


Change them! Get some Indian food at Chuteny's just up the street from Symphony Hall. Rush ticket sales start at 5 pm.


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## Richannes Wrahms

Aaconn said:


> It seems like the field of acoustic designing is still more of a mystery than a science, going off of previous designs that worked that were built years before the field existed.


There are too many variables to consider, no wonder in these cases (far removed from the ideal situation) it ends up being as accurate as the weather forecast. People think we've got everything in the 'classical physics scale' figured it out but the reality is that both physicists and engineers still have plenty of problems to work through. Everything is an approximation.


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## rezimet

They are revamping and renaming Avery Fisher Hall in next few years. They had to buy our the name from the family of the donor. Hopefully acoustics will improve.


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## Ilarion

In a Concert Choir which I belonged to in 1982 we did a performance there - GAH, how I hate that soundstage! I heard a performance there not too long ago and it still sounds like s***.

Now, the Meyerson Symphony Center in Dallas is the finest imo, plus the organ is great, especially when they open the reverb chambers - A Cathedral-like bloom is the result...so very satisfying.


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## Robert Eckert

Here is a Carnigie Hall film extravaganza for comparison. I recommend using phones or ear buds.


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## Pugg

Robert Eckert said:


> Here is a Carnigie Hall film extravaganza for comparison. I recommend using phones or ear buds.


Thank you for this :tiphat:


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## R3PL4Y

Triplets said:


> I am in Boston for a meeting and will try to get to a Concert before it's over. Best Hall I've heard is Orchestra Hall in Detroit which I narrowly prefer to Vienna Musikvrien and the Rudolfinum in Prague.


I live just outside of Detroit, so I do my best to make it to just about every concert they have. It really is a great hall with great accoustics, even though my season tickets are in the second row from the back.


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## waldvogel

R3PL4Y said:


> I live just outside of Detroit, so I do my best to make it to just about every concert they have. It really is a great hall with great accoustics, even though my season tickets are in the second row from the back.


I subscribe to the DSO, and have tickets in the middle balcony. On a subscription, this comes to just under $20 a ticket - possibly the best entertainment deal in the classical world, unless they still have those heavily subsidized tickets in places like Prague and Budapest. I've sat in the good seats in Orchestra Hall, and frankly, it sounded just like my balcony seats.

Did you catch the performance of Mahler's 2nd back before Christmas? I was utterly blown away by it...


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## hpowders

I subscribed to the NY Philharmonic at Avery Fisher Hall for many years, luckily through the entire Boulez tenure and the sound was quite flat at first, but they kept tinkering with it (acoustical panels) and got it to fairly okay.

I also attended some orchestral and piano concerts at Carnegie Hall and didn't find the sound there much better.


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## R3PL4Y

waldvogel said:


> I subscribe to the DSO, and have tickets in the middle balcony. On a subscription, this comes to just under $20 a ticket - possibly the best entertainment deal in the classical world, unless they still have those heavily subsidized tickets in places like Prague and Budapest. I've sat in the good seats in Orchestra Hall, and frankly, it sounded just like my balcony seats.
> 
> Did you catch the performance of Mahler's 2nd back before Christmas? I was utterly blown away by it...


I did in fact see that one. I was really impressed with it, as it was my first time seeing a live performance of any Mahler. Fortunately, being a student, my soundcard allows me to get much better seats for free, so I have been doing this recently. I also had the opportunity to sit in on a rehearsal recently, and I got to sit in the second box on the right, and it was honestly not much different from the balcony.


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## kanishknishar

Now that Avery Fisher Hall has been renovated with a budget of 500 million dollars, how is the sound? Is it finally up to the mark?


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