# Wagner and the theme of redemption?



## Joris (Jan 13, 2013)

Since Wagner is known to have redemption as a theme in his operas, I was wondering, and if anyone can help me with this i would be eternally grateful: are there any references in the music itself, so detached from the act(ion) of drama, that denote this redemption?

There's a musical motif named _Erlösung durch Liebe_ in one of his work as far as i know

Thanks a real lot, with love from the Netherlands


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## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

Joris said:


> Since Wagner is known to have redemption as a theme in his operas, I was wondering, and if anyone can help me with this i would be eternally grateful: are there any references in the music itself, so detached from the act(ion) of drama, that denote this redemption?
> 
> There's a musical motif named _Erlösung durch Liebe_ in one of his work as far as i know
> 
> Thanks a real lot, with love from the Netherlands


One thing to keep in mind is that for Wagner, the music and the drama were a single entity. The music describes and backs up the on-stage action, and connects it with the libretto. So, everything in the drama is reflected in the music. Also, while a number of "thematic catalogues" were published giving names to the various motifs, Wagner preferred not to do this, and the usage of some of the leitmotivs he used was more ambiguous than clear.

The motif you're referring to is from the Ring cycle, but I don't remember which one it is specifically. It's bound to be featured in the final immolation scene of Gotterdammerung, though. Similar themes (in the literary, not musical, sense) can be found in his other operas, though, including Der Fliegende Hollander and Tristan und Isolde, so it was definitely a preoccupation of his.


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## emiellucifuge (May 26, 2009)

The redemption through love motif in the ring appears twice: At the very end, and in Die Walkure when Sieglinde discovers she is pregant.
http://www.well.com/user/woodman/singthing/ring/Sounds/redemption.au


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## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

emiellucifuge said:


> The redemption through love motif in the ring appears twice: At the very end, and in Die Walkure when Sieglinde discovers she is pregant.
> http://www.well.com/user/woodman/singthing/ring/Sounds/redemption.au


Oh, I remember that one now.


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## emiellucifuge (May 26, 2009)

The same can be found in a little song Richard wrote for one of Cosima's birthdays:
http://thewagnerblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/Kinder2.pdf

Redemption through love is not really a good name for it though...


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## Joris (Jan 13, 2013)

Thanks, in his treatise Oper und Drama he wrote _Die Musik ist die erlösende und verwirklichende neue Sprache, _

So I shouldn't see this detached from the drama, or why would Wagner see music as redeeming?


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## Joris (Jan 13, 2013)

Here's the thing, Wagner said stuff like this more than once:

"music can never, in any union into which it might enter, cease to be the highest, most redemptive art" (Wagner 1888: vol. 5, 191)

But how is music _itself_ redeeming, what redeeming characteristics does it have? Can anybody perhaps help me with explaining this a little (then I will look up some more literature myself).
Thanks a real lot


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## emiellucifuge (May 26, 2009)

Ah, well if that is what you mean then you are looking at it the wrong way.

If you really want to know why music is redemptive then you must read this book:








But here is a quick overview:
http://users.belgacom.net/wagnerlibrary/articles/ney48218.htm


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## Joris (Jan 13, 2013)

Thanks a real lot for those links  That's very helpful
I feel kinda stupid now, but when I read that Wagner said 'music is the redeeming art', I thought i could see it separate or something


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