# Do you feel superior as a listener after having many years of classical listening?



## peeyaj (Nov 17, 2010)

So, this guy asked me "How many CD's <insert composer starting with B here> do you have? I said probably "a couple". Then, he said 'Oh well, I have 300 CD's of <insert composer starting with B here> and I have listened for him for many years. I also have 100 CD's of <insert composer starting with T and W here> and spent the last 30 years of my life listening to their collective works. So you're criticism of<insert composer starting with B here> is not valid because * after all you haven't explored ALL of his music* and you are still "newbie" on this kind of thing."

Do you agree with this guy? Do you feel superior as a listener after having many years of classical listening? And after collecting tons of CD's of your favorite composer... Do you think its healthy.


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## brianwalker (Dec 9, 2011)

Do you feel superior to the guy who's never listened to Schubert?


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## Jared (Jul 9, 2012)

I can only tell you how I feel.... 

1) The more I learn, the less I realise I know. 
2) The more I listen, the fewer the opportunities there are for me to approach a piece with fresh ears and few pre-conceptions.

There are certain advantages to being a newbie in the Classical Music field... take full advantage of them while you still have that status and, 'let no man despise thy youth'.


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## Very Senior Member (Jul 16, 2009)

It partly depends on who composer "B" is in the OP. If it’s Beethoven or Brahms or Bach and you said you had two CDs only of their music, and then proceeded to criticise their work by saying that you prefer Schubert, then it’s hardly surprising you got pulled up.

I also doubt that the guy you are referring to insisted that it’s necessary to own all of the works of Beethoven (or Brahms or Bach), or that one has to spend 30 years listening to it, before one can consider oneself no longer to be a “newbie”. I reckon you probably exaggerated that bit just to make the guy look like a pedantic snob.

People who go around concentrating their favourable comments on one particular composer, and knocking several others in the process, can be a frightful bore. Older, more experienced listeners have probably been through the same or similar fads and favourites earlier in their careers, and realise that one's favourites can and do change. You don’t tend to find older members going on and on about any single composer. In general they tend to take a much more rounded view of things, even to the extent of accepting that their current favourites may one day be replaced by others they haven't yet caught onto. 

In the above I include myself. Looking back, I cringe with embarrassment at some of the stupid things I once said both against and in favour of certain composers in my youth, which is now many years ago. I used to favour certain composers and dislike others, and I often said so often in a very confident way. I once considered, for example, that Beethoven was unquestionably the best without any close competition, and that Brahms was pretty useless in comparison. I realise all that is rubbish now, and I got it wrong. 

To answer your question directly, on the whole more experience is better than less. Of course it is. In general I would be more sympathetic to what this guy told you than the opposite viewpoint that experience is not essential or is unimportant in forming reliable views on the best in classical music (or anything else for that matter).


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## HarpsichordConcerto (Jan 1, 2010)

peeyaj said:


> Do you agree with this guy? Do you feel superior as a listener after having many years of classical listening? And after collecting tons of CD's of your favorite composer... Do you think its healthy.


Your choice of words is interesting. I don't feel "superior" but I do feel I have more listening experience, and more assured of my preferences. And I do appreciate the opinion of one who has more listening experience of a particular composer/genre/period than a newbie when I am seeking factual and informed opinion about those. Likewise, the opinion of a member or two whom I have come across here at TC who declared he had about 10 classical CDs and Mozart's music is lightweight frivolity is about as worthy as ... leave it to your imagination.

In real life, I have consistently learnt most about music appreciation from experience listeners and people who studied music qualified to teach.


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## peeyaj (Nov 17, 2010)

I forgot to tell that the op is just a hypothetical scenario. It just that it happened somewhat similarly to my friend in a literature forum. He criticized Kafka after reading ''The Castle'' and some guy chastised him, saying that all of his life, he studied Kafka (and many writers) and his criticisms is wrong.

This thread applies to classical music. 

@brianwalker

You got back! Tchaikovsky is on the 16th place on the greatest composers thread. You must be happy. 

I would say to that guy, ''You surely missing some beautiful music, man. Listen to some Trout''.


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## science (Oct 14, 2010)

He ought to have criticized _The Castle_ rather than Kafka, it that really is the only work by Kafka that he knows, and he'd probably better read it five or six times first to make sure he's not missing anything.

In general, a failure to appreciate a "classic" work of art - whether it's painting, sculpture, musical composition, literature, whatever - is a failure on our part, not the artist's.

There are works that I've heard at least a dozen times each, but don't really find them compelling. What can I say? *I cannot say that they're not so good - I cannot honestly say such a thing until I understand why other people like them so much - and in particular, not until I acquire the expert knowledge needed to analyze the scores in detail, and then do so.*

Meanwhile, all I can say is, I don't get them yet.

Same could go with literature, but there I personally am on much surer footing because I actually do the close analysis. I do know a lot more about literature than most people do, I am a better reader than most people. I pick up on allusions, themes, symbols, etc. much better than most people - and I notice mixed metaphors and so on much better than most people. And unless the book is manifestly awful, I usually read it at least three times before passing a judgment. Of course were I among literary critics or professors I would probably just listen, and if I said anything it would be in the form of a question.


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

How many CDs does this guy own of a composer whose last name is spelt *L-i-g-e-t-i?* I'm sure this imaginary person is just a showoff.

I only have eight CDs of music by *Ligeti* and one of them is of his first string quartet along with music of Bartók and Kurtág. I have heard a fair bit of his overall output and I have studies his music and really analysed some of his music and I can say that I know a good deal about his style and technique.


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## Sonata (Aug 7, 2010)

Nope. I listen for my own pleasure, that is all.


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

Sonata said:


> Nope. I listen for my own pleasure, that is all.


I listen for pleasure, knowledge and inspiration. 

But by no means do I believe that how many CDs you own of any certain composer would reflect on how much you know about their music.


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## Head_case (Feb 5, 2010)

peeyaj said:


> Do you agree with this guy? Do you feel superior as a listener after having many years of classical listening? And after collecting tons of CD's of your favorite composer... Do you think its healthy.


Of course noooo..... Hard not to look down on him because he's not listening to original vinyl LPs.


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## powerbooks (Jun 30, 2012)

I don't use the word "superior", but I do feel I know more about a certain composers or certain music works after I listen to them more than dozens of time or compared more than dozens of performances. I don't feel I listened enough music of all composers (that to me is an impossible), but I do feel I am specialized in a range of topics about my favorites composers and can get into details about the music performance and how to appreciate them.

I used to read and trust the music reviews a lot. Nowadays, my own instinct becomes more trustworthy. One example: Just after the Japanese earthquake and nuclear disaster last year, Suzuki and Bach Collegium did Bach Mass in b in a scheduled concert (a coincident). It was a beautiful, moving performance with some silence and important speeches before the concert along with donation, etc. But I felt the music was played too plain, or lack of drama. The small chorus sounds dry and lack of impact for such great music. The soloists were especially thin for such pieces like "Domine Deus" or "Et in unum Dominum". Couple days later, they repeated this concert in Carnegie Hall, and I read the NYT and found surprisingly similar review as if I wrote it!  (Not saying all reviews are right, but the more you listen, the more you can be a better judge.)

So, yes, you do feel yourself getting better in appreciating good music, after many years of classical listening and collections!


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## Andreas (Apr 27, 2012)

peeyaj said:


> So, this guy asked me "How many CD's <insert composer starting with B here> do you have? I said probably "a couple". Then, he said 'Oh well, I have 300 CD's of <insert composer starting with B here> and I have listened for him for many years. I also have 100 CD's of <insert composer starting with T and W here> and spent the last 30 years of my life listening to their collective works. So you're criticism of<insert composer starting with B here> is not valid because * after all you haven't explored ALL of his music* and you are still "newbie" on this kind of thing."


First, I wouldn't spend much time talking to such a person, because they obviously must have some personality issue if they feel it's necessary to talk down to other people like that.

Having said that, if you've been listening to something for 30 years, you probably have thought about it more, maybe even more deeply, than someone who's only been listening to it for 3 years.

And people who are relatively new to something shouldn't act as if they've got it all figured out just because they some best-of compiliations.

I'm sure it's possible to exhaust a composer's works, intellectually and spiritually. And there are surely many, many scholars out there who have dedicated their lives to music and know about it as much as one possibly can. But if that only leads you to look down on others, I'd say: what a shame.

Of course one tends to become overly self-confident with growing knowledge. Personally, I often think of how Gould once analyzed a Bach fugue, and then I'm reminded again of how little I actually know and understand.


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## myaskovsky2002 (Oct 3, 2010)

It depends

Martin


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## mmsbls (Mar 6, 2011)

science said:


> There are works that I've heard at least a dozen times each, but don't really find them compelling. What can I say? *I cannot say that they're not so good - I cannot honestly say such a thing until I understand why other people like them so much* - and in particular, not until I acquire the expert knowledge needed to analyze the scores in detail, and then do so.


The bolded words contain great wisdom in music and all things.



science said:


> Of course were I among literary critics or professors I would probably just listen, and if I said anything it would be in the form of a question.


Whenever I'm around people with expertise, I consider it a privilege to learn from them. I don't necessarily believe everything I hear from them, but I greatly value the time and effort they've expended in learning what they know. They almost certainly have insights that would take me a long time to acquire.

When I am the one who has more knowledge about a topic, I am excited to be able to pass some of what I know on to others. Someone who is more knowledgeable in music then another should obviously not appear superior or condescending but rather should express their views so the other can be exposed to those ideas. What the other does with that information is up to them.


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## superhorn (Mar 23, 2010)

I don't feel "superior" to people who are new to classical music . In fact, in some ways, I actually envy them, because they're new to it, and they're experiencing the thrill of discovery . It's hard to feel that excited when you're hearing the Beethoven 5th , the Schubert unfinished or the Dvorak New World symphony for the zillionth time . 
I started getting into classical music back in the late 60s, when I was just 13 or so , and I remember how exciting it was to get to know the symphonies of Bruckner and Mahler, Nielsen., Sibelius, Prokofiev,Shostakovich, the first six of Dvorak,, the operas of Wagner, Richard Strauss, Berg, Janacek, Mussorgsky etc, the symphonic poems of Richard Strauss , and so many other great works by so many different great composers . 
And I'm still hearing things for the first time, because the recorded repertoire has made such a staggeringly wide variety of little-known classical works available ot the public . Classical music fans can now hear music by composers hardly any one had ever heard of before , including the most experienced and knowledgable listeners .
Music which you would have amost zero chance of ever hearing oive in the concert hall or the opera house .
For example, Havergal Brian, Zdenek Fibich, Charles Koechlin, Franz Schmidt, Alexander von Zemlinsky,
Arnold Bax, Arthur Bliss, Hugo Alvfen, Wilhelm Stenhammar, Josef Suk, Anton Rubinstein, George Whitefield Chadwick, John Foulds, Mily Balakirev, Franz Berwald, Othmar Schoeck, Hans Pfitzner, Albert Rouseel,
Voncent D'Indy, Nikolai Myaskovsky, Sergei Taneyev, Stanislaw Moniuszko, Roiccardo Zandonai,
Roberto Gerhard , Jon Leifs, Unno Klami, and so many others .


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

peeyaj said:


> So, this guy asked me "How many CD's <insert composer starting with B here> do you have? I said probably "a couple". Then, he said 'Oh well, I have 300 CD's of <insert composer starting with B here> and I have listened for him for many years. I also have 100 CD's of <insert composer starting with T and W here> and spent the last 30 years of my life listening to their collective works. So you're criticism of<insert composer starting with B here> is not valid because * after all you haven't explored ALL of his music* and you are still "newbie" on this kind of thing."


I've heard that talk before.



> ...
> Do you agree with this guy? Do you feel superior as a listener after having many years of classical listening? And after collecting tons of CD's of your favorite composer... Do you think its healthy.


No I don't agree. I think its far more effective for me to talk about why I like a composer or a piece if I want to 'convert' others to do the same. Its better to tone down any sense of superiority or an agenda (or ego, etc.).

I have listened to very few cd's of Schnittke and Henze, but when I did, and posted them on current listening, others like the now departed Oskaar, went and listened to/explored these composers. Its all about Oskaar's interests, in that example, his 'agenda', not mine, not how many cd's I own of Henze or whoever.

So the bottom line is to stop asking questions like from a witness for the prosecution as in a bloody court house. Just talk about why you like something and others may well jump on the bandwagon. That's what I've found works for me and gets me interested in composers I don't know or don't know well. This forum has been esp. helpful for me getting exposure to American composers, esp. since many of them aren't that well known in Australia (but things are changing in that regard, at least with 'big name' American composers).

So better to stay positive rather than be judge and jury. It's not a courthouse for goodness sakes!


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## Sandy (Dec 23, 2009)

I feel sorry for anyone who has missed the music of Schubert. Over my many years of music, I would take time to read up and listen to one composer at a time. My time for Schubert was in my high school senior.


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