# Listening Group Week



## Polednice (Sep 13, 2009)

Hello there my gorgeous little minions, how is the classical music going?

In case you need some help (which you probably do because you're pathetic), some of us have collaborated on an idea for a talk classical listening group via Spotify. However, as not all of us use Spotify, this thread is open to general discussion as well should you have access to the pieces via different means. The more the merrier! (Well, the more the more arguments there'll be, more like ).

If you traverse the internet highway to this location, you'll find the original thread where this was conceived. If, however, you follow a different route to end up here, you can access the Spotify playlist that anyone can subscribe to and edit.

The idea is a fragile, premature infant with a bacterial infection at the moment, so it may not survive its first week, but we're aiming to have members add one piece each to the list each week for us to listen to. But as I said, so that everyone can be involved, here is the list so far:

*Kalevi Aho*: Symphony No. 12, 'Luosto' (2002/03) - John Storgards with the Chamber Orchestra of Lapland and Lahti Symphony Orchestra.

*Bruckner*: Symphony No. 7 (1881/85) - Wilhelm Furtwangler with the Berliner Philharmoniker.

*Dvorak*: 10 Biblical Songs, Op. 99 (1894) - Martina Jankova and Gerard Wyss (piano).

Discussion can be as much about the recordings themselves as about the compositions, but of course you can talk about any aspect you like!  Hopefully we'll get some discussion going over these three pieces through the coming week.


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## Xaltotun (Sep 3, 2010)

We need more music, everybody who has Spotify, please join!

Some of my initial musings on the pieces that we do have:

Kalevi Aho: Symphony #12 "Luosto". I've heard that this piece is supposed to be played in Finnish Lapland, in a specific place in the wilderness in the middle of nowhere. They even bring grand pianos there, I hear! Yeah, it sounds crazy but it seems to be true. I've been to Lapland only once, but I can tell you that this piece really sounds like Lapland. That stripped-down, bare but not barren atmosphere... emptiness and loneliness but not without life. Nature becomes harsh and meditative, like the music here. There's signs of human life as well: the drums at the beginning are clearly meant to represent a shaman's drum, and the chanting is typically Lappish as well. The "storm" section is delightfully traditional, evoking feelings of Beethoven's 6th and Strauss' Alpensinfonie.

Bruckner: Symphony #7. This was my own addition, and I humbly think it's one of the best records ever. Furtwängler really lights the piece up with his soulful, malleable pulse. Also, the sound quality is nowhere near as bad as on some other Furtwängler records. The strings in the first movement reach towards the invisible light, but fail to grasp it, and twitch in a mixture of holy rapture and utter despair. The second movement is a funeral to end all funerals, opening slowly like the spread of nuclear fallout. The cymbal crash is like a rude awakening in a buried coffin. The third movement heralds the riders of the apocalypse, like so many other Bruckner symphonies. Here, the Valkyries don't bring just their raw power but grace and nobility as well. But it's still fast enough to have the power element, too. The fourth movement might not be as impressive as the preceding three, but it ties the symphony together very nicely. Furtwängler really lives and breathes with the music. He plays slow when it's needed, fast when it's needed, sturdy when it's needed and fragile when it's needed. I understand that some might see that as self-indulgence, but to me it's just the opposite: respecting the music itself, the organic life that is hidden beyond the notes.

Dvorak: 10 Biblical Songs. Whoops, I thought that these were by Mussorgsky, all the time! I remember thinking "Yeah, these really have the crudeness and despair that is typical of Mussorgsky"! Terrible thing, imagination. I'll have to listen to these again, but with the image of the Czech gentleman in my mind


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## gridweb (Jun 19, 2011)

Polednice said:


> In case you need some help (which you probably do because you're pathetic)


I'm sorry, but I don't like the tone of your voice. Why are we pathetic?


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## Xaltotun (Sep 3, 2010)

Oh, don't worry, gridweb; I believe that what we have here is a mixture of classic British dry humor and an Internet rhetoric device. I.e. he didn't mean it, really. He's probably all soft and fluffy inside


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## Polednice (Sep 13, 2009)

gridweb said:


> I'm sorry, but I don't like the tone of your voice. Why are we pathetic?


See Xaltotun's response.


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## Klavierspieler (Jul 16, 2011)

gridweb said:


> I'm sorry, but I don't like the tone of your voice. Why are we pathetic?


Don't worry, this is a running joke on this forum, no offence (probably) intended.


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## gridweb (Jun 19, 2011)

Klavierspieler said:


> Don't worry, this is a running joke on this forum, no offence (probably) intended.


OK, I understand. No harm done.
Sorry for the fuss...


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## mmsbls (Mar 6, 2011)

I like this idea - sort of a book club for musical works. I don't use Spotify, but I suspect I'll be able to find all or almost all works on Naxos. I might have to eventually join Spotify if I can't find something or if I want to suggest a work (I already have a couple in mind).

I like the selection of the first week's works. They're not common so many people may not have heard them. I actually listened to Aho's 11th symphony and Bruckner's 7th for the first time last week (a bit of a coincidence). I eagerly look forward to this thread.


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## Xaltotun (Sep 3, 2010)

New listens, new additions and some musings:

Dvorak: 10 Biblical Songs. I know very little of lieder, but that's why it was fun to listen to something that I wouldn't normally listen to. Also, I'm unable to find anything quintessentially "Dvorakish" in these songs, but I'm not a Dvorak expert either. But the soprano sounds extremely good to my ears, what a silken, cold voice - and she doesn't overdo it. She treats these pieces with noble austerity. The overall atmosphere brings to my mind winter, wind, and barren, leafless trees. I'm also reminded of my newbieness because the closest musical thing that comes to my mind is the theme song from the film "Princess Mononoke"... 

All in all these were a pleasant surprise. They seem to form a dramatic cycle of some sort, too, because they seem to drift all the time into darker, bleaker atmosphere, until the last song, which feels triumphant. The classic Romantic journey from darkness to light, I can never resist that.

Rimsky-Korsakov: Scheherazade (Mariss Jansons/London Philharmonic Orchestra). Ah, the old favourite. I can understand Für Elise-hate, Eine Kleine Nachtmusik-hate and Bolero-hate... but if you really hate Scheherazade from the bottom of your heart, you are just a bad and mean person, as simple as that. This version is really well played, and it has lots of accelerandos and ritardandos. It has a massive, precise and a bit chilly atmosphere that reminds me of Karajan. Now I really like Karajan and his style when it's applied to a right piece, but I'm not sure if this one is it. At times it feels like an ascent to Mont Blanc rather than a sunny adventure in the Arabian Nights. Jansons accentuates the drama of the piece, which is always good. I guess I've just accustomed to hearing more soothing, lyrical and warm interpretations. 

Mussorgsky: Pictures at an Exhibition (Simon Rattle/Berliner Philharmoniker). The contributor of this piece has snipped the Promenade sections out of it, which I feel is a really bad move, sorry! The Promenades are an essential part of the dramatic structure of the piece, and it feels really awkward without them. Let's get to the sections themselves. I think that "The Gnome" is the greatest part here. Rattle brings out the daring and the grotesque quite successfully. "The Old Castle" and "Tuileries" are spot-on, too. "Bydlo" is good as well, but I might prefer a slightly slower tempo. "Ballet of the Unhatched Chicks" sounds a bit too controlled, not wild enough. "Samuel Goldberg and Schmuÿle" is where most recordings fail, and I feel this one fails as well. Schmuÿle should be wild and eccentric to provide contrast to the massive Samuel Goldberg, not just sad and flat. I guess Schmuÿle must be really hard to play, because it almost always fails. "Limoges", "Catacombs" and "Cum Mortuis" are good. "Baba-Yaga" is morbid enough, although it could be even more terrifying. "Bogatyr Gates" is hard to fail, and it's good here as well, although it could also be even more blazing and heavenly. All in all this is a good recording, and the sound is excellent. But it's the wilder, less controlled versions of "Pictures..." that are the best


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## Theophrastus (Aug 13, 2011)

I just joined spotify (the free version) but I cannot open that playlist. This may be because I'm over 40. Can anyone help?


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## jaimsilva (Jun 1, 2011)

Xaltotun said:


> Mussorgsky: Pictures at an Exhibition (Simon Rattle/Berliner Philharmoniker). The contributor of this piece has snipped the Promenade sections out of it, which I feel is a really bad move, sorry! The Promenades are an essential part of the dramatic structure of the piece, and it feels really awkward without them. Let's get to the sections themselves. ...


You'r right! Sorry for that guys! My mistake! Correction already done.


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## Aksel (Dec 3, 2010)

I will join soon. Promise. I just need to get my computer problems sorted out. Hopefully, I can participate later this week. Or next week. We'll have to see.


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## Pieck (Jan 12, 2011)

That's not fair, I cant have spotify because they are anti semetic Israel haters.


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## Polednice (Sep 13, 2009)

Some brief thoughts so far:

I took the opportunity of travelling over the past two days to listen to some of the playlist. First up, I was very impressed by the opening of *Kalevi Aho*'s Luosto symphony. I thought the drums were wonderfully imposing, and I simply adored the harmony in the brass that followed. Admittedly, though I don't know whether or not this is a bad thing, I felt the music was all rather 'dramatic' in the sense of it being able to accompany a dancified light-show... Anyway, given its fascinating connection with Lapland, I found myself trying my best to _not_ to think of Father Christmas! With the start of the second movement, I was thinking: "Oh, so this is probably evil Santa..."  But given some of the instrumentation, it was rather hard not to think of reindeer.  I still need to give it another concerted listen though, as, whether it was my fault or the music's, my attention wandered at times.

As for the *Dvorak* Biblical Songs, I decided to include them in the list because I wanted the opportunity to listen to them properly myself. A while ago, I heard the fifth song in an orchestral version on YouTube - probably divorced from the rest of the cycle - and thought that the main theme was delightful in a typical Dvorakian way; and I love Dvorak almost as much as I love Brahms. I agree with Xaltotun, however, that there is nothing _quintessentially_ 'Dvorak' about these songs as a whole - at least not in the sense of his later symphonies and tone poems - but they are still a marvellous collection from his mature period.

I shall go and digest some more of it before I write more.


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## Polednice (Sep 13, 2009)

I've just finished listening to the *Mussorgsky* (the orchestral version of _Pictures at an Exhibition_). Now, I absolutely love it as a piece - it has such fantastic and varied character, with some inspired thematic ideas - but I want to talk particularly about the recording here. For starters, I always prefer to listen to the piano version. There are a myriad of available recordings, but I own Leif Ove Andsnes's, both because I love him generally as a pianist and because he did a fascinating project on this piece called 'Pictures Reframed' with the artist Robin Rhode. But here we have the orchestral version in the hands of Simon Rattle, and I must say that I was _very_ disappointed. I have always thoroughly enjoyed the Rattle/Brahms combination, but the sound he brings to this music was really quite off-putting. The general orchestral sound I found quite dull, and the overall effect seemed one of pedantry on each image. I didn't feel like I was in a gallery, moving between curious images; I felt like a man was holding me by the back of my neck, forcing me to stare at each image in turn, desperately trying to take everything in, in slow, pain-staking detail. It just lumbered from one movement to the next with no connection. Anyway, enough of my bile! For the orchestral version, I would recommend Sylvain Cambreling and the SWR Symphony Orchestra.


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## Aksel (Dec 3, 2010)

I have officially subscribed. Now for even more multi-movement orchestral suites, I've added the ultra-folksy, edgy second suite of Geirr Tveitt's Hundrad hardingtonar.


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## Polednice (Sep 13, 2009)

Now that it's been a week, I've taken out my Dvorak and replaced it with something else - though it seems messy to make another thread and hope for everyone to rotate pieces on a tight time-scale, so perhaps we'll just stick with this thread and dip in and out as we like? Perhaps have a mod remove the "week #1" from the title..

Anyway, no matter what happens with our abysmal organisation, I have trashed the Biblical Songs, having sucked all the prettiness out of them, and have added _yet more_ Korsakov. We are indeed a bit Russian-Romantic heavy at the moment, but I couldn't help myself. I simply had to get you to listen to the suite from his opera _The Legend of the Invisible City of Kitezh_ because it has a great, soppy sentimental place in my heart - though I'm sure you'll all have heard it before anyway because you have such good taste!

Every time I hear just the first few bars, I wonder if I'll cry (I never too; I'm much too manly  ), and I think that this opera in general has a melodiousness completely on par with Schubert and Brahms (though dissimilar in style). If you want to listen to the whole thing, search for the Gergiev recording on Spotify.


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## Xaltotun (Sep 3, 2010)

Ah! I thought that the whole list would be emptied at the end of the cycle, and then we'd put in new additions. But it might be actually better this way - you just remove your own contributions and replace them - because people contribute stuff at different times of the week. So, you'll have a little bit more freedom to choose when your addition(s) has/have been in the list long enough, and replace them then.

I'll start listening to the new stuffs right away...


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## Guest (Aug 24, 2011)

*Bugger*, spot a fly is not available in this neck of the woods but would love to join in with this elite grope if a loud :cheers:


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## jaimsilva (Jun 1, 2011)

Have replaced "Sheherazade" and "Pictures at an exhibition" by Schumann's "Etudes symphoniques" played by the great Sviatoslav Richter.


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## Xaltotun (Sep 3, 2010)

Replaced Bruckner's Symphony #7/Furtwängler with Nielsen's Symphony #4 "Inextinguishable"/Vänskä. Listened to the wonderful new additions as well, will write a word or two about them soon enough...


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## Bix (Aug 12, 2010)

Could we extend the week to a fortnight, so I can get chance to listen to them (please do it for me, peeeeease). Work gets in the way, I think I need to give up work


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## Xaltotun (Sep 3, 2010)

I think that the forthnight idea is fine, it would give all of us more time, most of us have busy lives etc. Let's see what the others think?


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## Guest (Aug 25, 2011)

Xaltotun said:


> I think that the forthnight idea is fine, it would give all of us more time, most of us have busy lives etc. Let's see what the others think?


I agree with this and just to see if I have grasped the purpose correctly once a work is decided upon then any comments at all are posted i,e after listening to the said work, the only remaining thing is who decides which work? it can only be one work at a time :tiphat:


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## Xaltotun (Sep 3, 2010)

Here's how I think it goes. Hope I got it right.

If you want to LISTEN, listen as much as you like or as little as you like.
If you want to DISCUSS about the pieces in TalkClassical, discuss as much or as little as you like - but it might be a good idea to listen to the pieces before discussing them ,)
If you want to CONTRIBUTE pieces, choose a piece, any piece, of classical music (or a few pieces), and add them to the list, preferably at about the start of a new cycle (whether it's going to be one week or two). At the same time, delete your previous contribution(s) to keep the list fresh. A new cycle has just begun at this week's Monday.


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## Polednice (Sep 13, 2009)

Xaltotun has it explained well! And the fortnightly rule is fine by me.


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## Bix (Aug 12, 2010)

Fab, thanks people. I'll upload something when I get home.


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## Guest (Aug 25, 2011)

Now I understand, I had thought it would be the same as a book group where the group reads one book and then dissects and comments etc, but I am fine with this way of doing it, I will listen to Nielsen’s 4th to day

Just finished a hearing:
The version that I have is by the Royal Liverpool Philharmonic, Douglas Bostock rec 2000, for me the 2nd mov which was all wind instruments hit the right spot, being someone that used to fool around a bit on the Flute I connected with it, also the final mov, a battle of the percussion was very exciting, thoroughly enjoyed it.


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## Xaltotun (Sep 3, 2010)

Some comments:

Rimsky-Korsakov: Legend of the invisible city... / Igor Golovchin / Moscow Symphony Orchestra

This one goes straight to my personal Romantiikka/Venäjä Spotify list. I had never heard this one before! Dreamy and fairytale-like classic Rimsky that invites you to a world of wonder and magic. Wonderful orchestration too. This kind of music is extremely visual. I start to see images, shapes and physical movement, not something that usually happens with music. You can also hear that the players really understand this music, because everything seems to come into place. Not a note sounds wrong. Yeah, it sounds a bit sugary and "Disney", but what should one expect from Rimsky? It still sounds genuine, not artificial. It's wonderful. I love it!

Tveitt: Suite #2, "15 Mountain Songs" / Stavanger Symphony Orchestra

Hmm, these are not really "songs", but rather short orchestral pieces without vocal component. They invite us to witness the harsh, cold nature of Norwegian mountains. The orchestration is sparse and really evokes the feeling of wind-swept mountain majesty. As with Aho's Symphony #12 "Luosto", I'm again reminded of Beethoven's Symphony #6 and Strauss' Alpensinfonie. Some pieces seem to describe nature, while some describe the folk who live there, just like in the "Pastoral". The moods change often here, from bare and majestic to cosy and rural to whimsical and funny, even completely tongue-in-cheek. That's an accurate description of Nordic countryside (I have lived there)! I really like the juxtaposition of the serious and non-serious here, as well as the totally Northern atmosphere!

Schumann: Etudes Symphoniques, Opus 13 / Sviatoslav Richter.

While I greatly enjoy solo piano music, I still lack knowledge and exposure. That's why I'm not able to say much about these, except that I enjoyed them greatly. Richter's playing exudes both confidence and sensitivity, it always has both of those components. He never exaggerates, and never underwhelms. He's got things JUST RIGHT. These are certainly romantic and expressive pieces, but yet I feel a certain... inwardness about them. As if the composer was speaking eloquently to the public, but his mind was turned inwards. Sort of like being Rachmaninov and Satie at the same time. But man, that Richter guy can play. What a musical presence!

Nielsen: Symphony #4 "Inextinguishable" / Vänskä / BBC Scottish Symphony Orchestra

This was my own addition, and one of my favourite symphonies of all time. It's a powerhouse of energy, but the energy is sort of impersonal, primal energy of the Platonic shapes, instead of something very personal and human. There is something very classic and statuesque here, yet there is wild movement also. A sort of musical equivalent of Eisenstein's "Battleship Potemkin"? Or... you know that old statue, "Laocoon and his sons"? Well, imagine if it came alive and started writhing and struggling, all muscles strained to the limit. Then you could see the wild struggle for survival, but also wonder at the perfect, classic shapes and proportions. That's what it sounds like to me. This symphony (and Nielsen's music in general) is notoriously difficult to describe for me... here is yet another attempt!

This version has excellent playing - they understand the pulse and the dynamics of the work. However, when I compare it to my CD version (Finnish Radio Symphony Orchestra / Jukka-Pekka Saraste), the sounds seems a bit fuzzy, not as sharp. But that might just be the difference between Spotify and CD (I don't have the best sound quality version of Spotify).


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## jaimsilva (Jun 1, 2011)

*no more Soptify for me...*

Unfortunatly I have no more access to Spotify


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## Polednice (Sep 13, 2009)

jaimsilva said:


> Unfortunatly I have no more access to Spotify
> 
> View attachment 2432


That's strange!! So it was working fine before, and now they've pulled the plug? 

@Xaltotun: I'm really pleased that you liked the Korsakov I put in the list!  As I said, it has a sentimental place in my heart (though how could not for anyone after they hear those gorgeous themes?!), so it's always nice to see someone so pleased to have been introduced to it. As I said, the complete opera conducted by Gergiev is available on Spotify - I'm in no way an opera fan, but I loved listening to it.


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## Bix (Aug 12, 2010)

It seems that you can only listen to 20 hours worth of music and then it cuts you off, if you want to listen to more you have to pay for it. That may be the problem *jaimsilva*


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## jaimsilva (Jun 1, 2011)

Bix said:


> It seems that you can only listen to 20 hours worth of music and then it cuts you off, if you want to listen to more you have to pay for it. That may be the problem *jaimsilva*


As far as I know (now), the problem is that they (Spotify) have "arrengements" with Labels and artists organizations in some countries. Due to technical and legal issues, Spotify is available, for now, only in Sweden, Norway, Finland, the UK, the US, France, Spain and the Netherlands. 

Hope they launch the system in other countries soon.


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## Guest (Aug 28, 2011)

jaimsilva said:


> Unfortunatly I have no more access to Spotify
> 
> View attachment 2432


Don't worry, be happy. you can live without it as I and millions of others do


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## Polednice (Sep 13, 2009)

I haven't actually devoted any time to listening to new music recently, so I've been quiet on the playlist front. Having just rearranged it slightly (if you can't see your piece, it is there, I just put everything in alphabetical order because I'm obsessive like that!  ), I thought I'd have a quick stab at John Eliot Gardiner.

His Bach (I hear) is great.
His Mozart in most cases is admirable.
I _despise_ his Brahms. With a passion. With a fiery, burning vendetta that consumes me. I think he absolutely destroys Brahms's symphonies - they are, to my ears, the absolute worst recordings of these pieces. I realise that the work added to the playlist was the _Gesang der Geister uber den Wassern_ - and I will concede that Gardiner's approach to Brahms works much better when there are choral parts - but it's on a disc with his Symphony No. 2, and it's abominable.


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## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

Polednice said:


> They are, to my ears, the absolute worst recordings of these pieces. I realise that the work added to the playlist was the _Gesang der Geister uber den Wassern_ - and I will concede that Gardiner's approach to Brahms works much better when there are choral parts - but it's on a disc with his Symphony No. 2, and it's abominable.


Wow, you're the first person I've heard say that. How do you prefer Brahms, as in conductor/orchestra?


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## Polednice (Sep 13, 2009)

Manxfeeder said:


> Wow, you're the first person I've heard say that. How do you prefer Brahms, as in conductor/orchestra?


My main gripes with Gardiner are that I find he makes the music sound too light, and, in many instances, takes it much too fast. As far as a symphonies-recording comparison is concerned, I have always felt Bernard Haitink's with the LSO to be a cut above the rest.


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## GoneBaroque (Jun 16, 2011)

I am the guilty party who posted the "Gesang der Geister uber den Wassern". I heard it on the radio in this performance, they introduced it as a piece by Schubert. Why it wound up on a Brahms disc I have not idea. I would not consider Gardiner a good Brahms conductor.


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## Webernite (Sep 4, 2010)

I like Gardiner's Symphony No. 1 but he doesn't do so well with the other symphonies. His recording of the last movement of the Second Symphony is great, though.


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## Polednice (Sep 13, 2009)

Webernite said:


> I like Gardiner's Symphony No. 1 but he doesn't do so well with the other symphonies. His recording of the last movement of the Second Symphony is great, though.


I actually listened to that movement this evening and was surprised at how un-atrocious it was, though still not impressed. It was listening to his 4th that made me run away.


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## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

Polednice said:


> As far as a symphonies-recording comparison is concerned, I have always felt Bernard Haitink's with the LSO to be a cut above the rest.


Thanks. I haven't heard my ultimate recordings of Brahms' symphonies yet, so I'm always up for suggestions. I'll try to hear that one.


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## Webernite (Sep 4, 2010)

Polednice said:


> I actually listened to that movement this evening and was surprised at how un-atrocious it was, though still not impressed. It was listening to his 4th that made me run away.


On the whole, his approach is a bit extreme (too little vibrato) and the orchestra just doesn't play all that well, but I think the use of smaller orchestral forces is a step in the right direction with Brahms.


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## GoneBaroque (Jun 16, 2011)

I have deleted the Schubert choral piece conducted by Gardiner and have substituted The Glagolitic Mass by Leos Janacel palyed by the London Philharmonic Orchestra and Chorus conducted by Klaus Tennstedt. the soloists are Ameral Gunson, Shiela Armstrong, Robert Tear and William Shimmel from a BBC Legends CD. If you do not know this piece it is worth a listen, one of my favorites. If you do know it listen anyway, it is a fine performance and contains some of Robert Tears finest work. I await your comments.


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## Polednice (Sep 13, 2009)

I have been so distracted by tiredness that I forgot about all this! :O Good job we kept it formal 

I will try to give the Mass a listen soon.


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## GoneBaroque (Jun 16, 2011)

I should have noted that the text of the Glagolitic Mass is sung in what is called Church Slavonic, and I noticed that my not so nimble fingers misspelled the last name of the composer, it is of course Janacek. Sorry.


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