# Is Rattle/Berlin Sibelius Symphonies cycle worth it?



## Waehnen

Is the Sibelius Symphonies cycle by Simon Rattle and the Berling Philharmonic on Deutsche Grammophon worth it?

I am interested but I have sooooo many Sibelius recordings. 

Does anyone know the set?

I have complete sets at least by: Neeme Järvi (DGG), Berglund (all three!), Ashkenazy, Maazel, Saraste, Vänskä, Karajan (minus the 3rd), Blomstedt, Bernstein, Barbirolli and Sir Colin Davis (2 sets).

Do I need yet another one?


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## Azol

Why not Segerstam instead of Rattle? Just an idea for you...


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## HenryPenfold

Waehnen said:


> Is the Sibelius Symphonies cycle by Simon Rattle and the Berling Philharmonic on Deutsche Grammophon worth it?
> 
> I am interested but I have sooooo many Sibelius recordings.
> 
> Does anyone know the set?
> 
> I have complete sets at least by: Neeme Järvi (DGG), Berglund (all three!), Ashkenazy, Maazel, Saraste, Vänskä, Karajan (minus the 3rd), Blomstedt, Bernstein, Barbirolli and Sir Colin Davis (2 sets).
> 
> Do I need yet another one?


I bought the set a while back, largely because it was at a knock-down price. I was unimpressed on the first listen. The second listen did nothing to change my view. I've listened to selected symphonies from it here and there, but it does little for me. Hard to say why. Bland, perhaps. I think his CBSO cycle is better. Even though it was cheap, I think I wasted my money. But your experience might be different. Can it not be tested out first via streaming?

P.S. If you want another cycle, given the ones you have already, I'd suggest Oramo.
P.P.S. It seems quite expensive at the moment. According to my Amazon account, I paid £11.25 for it on 4th April 2014.


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## Waehnen

Thank you Azol and Henry! I will skip this one. The reviews have been rather mixed and of all the symphonies I have version that I consider perfect. So maybe I will skip it this time. It is a skill I need to learn after all.


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## Josquin13

I didn't overly care for Rattle's Berlin Sibelius myself, & the idea of buying it instead of either cycle by Segerstam makes no sense to me; even though I'm not always 100% on board with Segerstam's Sibelius, either, finding that he can sometimes slow down too much for me in the symphonies (& especially on his 2nd Ondine set, as I'm one of the few that prefer his earlier Danish NSO cycle, overall). Nevertheless, Segerstam can be a great Sibelius conductor, such as with his two recordings of the 7th Symphony, Kullervo, and in many of the shorter works, such as The Tempest Suites 1 & 2, which Segerstam does brilliantly. I'd also choose the cycles by Oramo, Gibson in Scotland (or Uppsala, which he left incomplete at his death, with only 1 & 2 getting done, but they're great!), and Kamu on BIS over Rattle's, as well--among those not listed in your collection; even though I thought Kamu's cycle was somewhat hit & miss, with his 4th being the highlight of the set, for me. The current 'in progress' live cycle from Owain Arwel Hughes is looking excellent, too, so far. But in comparison to the best Sibelius out there, I thought Rattle's Berlin Sibelius was relatively clueless. I don't think he understands this music as deeply as certain other conductors, despite the reputation that he carved out for himself in Sibelius early in his career.





In the case of the 7th Symphony, Segerstam's second recording with the Helsinki Philharmonic on Ondine (linked below) is tauter and more forward driven than his earlier recording with the Danish National Symphony Orchestra on Chandos (in the previous link):









--Segerstam's Kullervo: 




--Kamu's exceptional 4th on BIS (& I'm also a fan of Kamu's earlier DG recordings--his Symphonies 1-3 and the Lemminkäinen Suite, & maybe even more so): 




--Gibson's 'swan song' Uppsala CO 1st & 2nd: 




Another cycle not on your list that I'd strongly consider before Rattle's is Eugene Ormandy's incomplete cycle in Philadelphia: 



. Some have liked Sixten Ehrling's cycle, too, but I've not heard it.


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## Triplets

They are available on Qobuz to stream so the OP can always make their own decision.
As for myself, my shelves don’t need another Sibelius cycle at this time


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## Waehnen

Josquin13 said:


> I didn't overly care for Rattle's Berlin Sibelius myself, & the idea of buying it instead of either cycle by Segerstam makes no sense to me; even though I'm not always 100% on board with Segerstam's Sibelius, either, finding that he can sometimes slow down too much for me in the symphonies (& especially on his 2nd Ondine set, as I'm one of the few that prefer his earlier Danish NSO cycle, overall). Nevertheless, Segerstam can be a great Sibelius conductor, such as with his two recordings of the 7th Symphony, Kullervo, and in many of the shorter works, such as The Tempest Suites 1 & 2, which Segerstam does brilliantly. I'd also choose the cycles by Oramo, Gibson in Scotland (or Uppsala, which he left incomplete at his death, with only 1 & 2 getting done, but they're great!), and Kamu on BIS over Rattle's, as well--among those not listed in your collection; even though I thought Kamu's cycle was somewhat hit & miss, with his 4th being the highlight of the set, for me. The current 'in progress' live cycle from Owain Arwel Hughes is looking excellent, too, so far. But in comparison to the best Sibelius out there, I thought Rattle's Berlin Sibelius was relatively clueless. I don't think he understands this music very deeply, despite the reputation that he carved out for himself in Sibelius early in his career.
> 
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> --Segerstam's Kullervo:
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> --Kamu's exceptional 4th on BIS (& I'm also a fan of Kamu's earlier DG recordings, maybe even more so):
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> --Gibson's 'swan song' Uppsala CO 1st & 2nd:
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> 
> Another cycle not on your list that I'd strongly consider before Rattle's is Eugene Ormandy's incomplete cycle in Philadelphia:
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> . Some have liked Sixten Ehrling's cycle, too, but I've not heard it.


Thanks, Josquin! I must admit that none of the Segerstam Sibelius I have heard has convinced me so far. If Esa-Pekka Salonen were to make a cycle, I would buy it the moment it came out. Otherwise... I think I have enough cycles. Now that I think of it and actually read the list I wrote. 

At the moment I am most thrilled about the Neeme Järvi Sibelius cycle for Deutsche Grammophon. Are you familiar with it?

Järvi always does the one thing I require of a good conductor: the orchestral balance must be good and the details must serve the whole. I cannot bear performances where either the woodwinds or the brass dominate the soundscape. A balance between the orchestral groups must be achieved. Järvi always does this. And he never fails at the overall architecture although I may disagree with some details. He is a great musician. His interpretations may not always be the most profound I have heard, but everything is deeply musical and works. I appreciate that, a lot. I am touched by Neeme´s musicality, even.


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## Allegro Con Brio

I just don't think the BPO's big, thick sound is very appropriate for Sibelius. I find it sounds too much like Brahms under Rattle, and while Karajan obviously loved the music and conducted it well, I just don't think the sound worlds he created were very Sibelian. For Sibelius I favor a compromise between the lean, stripped sound of the Finnish orchestras and the big-boned Romantic style. For me, the sets that satisfy that criterion include Gibson/RSNO, Collins/LSO, and Berglund/Bournemouth. Also check out Rozhdostvensky if you haven't already—it sounds like quite literally nothing else on record, like an orchestra consisting of mad, grizzled, slightly inebriated Norsemen—but it's awesome!


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## Merl

I have both Rattle cycles and although the Berlin set is an improvement on his earlier cycle it still doesn't impress me much. As Henry said, I'd go for Oramo, who does it much better, instead.


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## Kiki

Waehnen said:


> Is the Sibelius Symphonies cycle by Simon Rattle and the Berling Philharmonic on Deutsche Grammophon worth it?
> 
> I am interested but I have sooooo many Sibelius recordings.
> 
> Does anyone know the set?
> 
> I have complete sets at least by: Neeme Järvi (DGG), Berglund (all three!), Ashkenazy, Maazel, Saraste, Vänskä, Karajan (minus the 3rd), Blomstedt, Bernstein, Barbirolli and Sir Colin Davis (2 sets).
> 
> Do I need yet another one?


I have the Rattle/Berlin box set. It's released by Berliner Philharmoniker Recordings, not Deutsche Grammophon. What has impressed me about it, is how beautiful the playing is. Simply amazing. Other than that... in fact this cycle is not bad, but there is little else that's worth shouting about.

Which Saraste set have you got? IMO the RCA is grand but safe. On the other hand, the Finlandia live cycle is a lot more on the edge.

I second about the Rozhdestvensky. It's simply different. And Crazy at times.

And the Anthony Collins. Poor sound but the character of the music is one of the most idiomatically played.

Free oneself from sets - some individual symphonies from Kajanus, Mravinsky, Monteux, Berglund, Toscanini are IMO must-haves.


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## CnC Bartok

Waehnen said:


> Is the Sibelius Symphonies cycle by Simon Rattle and the Berling Philharmonic on Deutsche Grammophon worth it?
> 
> I am interested but I have sooooo many Sibelius recordings.
> 
> Does anyone know the set?
> 
> I have complete sets at least by: Neeme Järvi (DGG), Berglund (all three!), Ashkenazy, Maazel, Saraste, Vänskä, Karajan (minus the 3rd), Blomstedt, Bernstein, Barbirolli and Sir Colin Davis (2 sets).
> 
> Do I need yet another one?


You need the old Collins set! And Okko Kamu on BIS too!


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## Waehnen

CnC Bartok said:


> You need the old Collins set! And Okko Kamu on BIS too!


Do not tempt me, dear friends! Sibelius cycles are my weakness!


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## RobertJTh

Waehnen said:


> Do not tempt me, dear friends! Sibelius cycles are my weakness!


Can I tempt you with Sanderling? Or good old Abravanel?


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## CnC Bartok

Ok, I did this a few months back for my Bruckner cycle collection, and so thought I would do the same for Sibelius. 

Five stars for the best, stars in brackets for various provisos such as poor sound, some eccentricities...

Please enjoy/ignore/get righteously outraged as you see fit!

Lahti SO/Vanska (BIS) ****
Minnesota O/Vanska (BIS) **(*)
Chamber Orchestra of Europe/Berglund (Finlandia) ***(**)
Bournemouth SO/Berglund (EMI) ****(*)
Helsinki PO/Berglund (EMI) *****
Vienna PO/Maazel (Decca) ****
CBSO/Rattle (EMI) **(*)
London SO/Collins (Decca) ****(*)
Lahti SO/Kamu (BIS) *****
Boston SO/Davis (Philips) ****
London SO/Davis (RCA) ***
London SO/Davis (LSO Live) **
Gothenburg SO/Jarvi (BIS) ****
Gothenburg SO/Jarvi (DGG) ***
Philharmonia O/Ashkenazy (Decca) ***(*)
Scottish NO/Gibson (Chandos) ****(*)
NYPO/Bernstein (Sony) ***
Halle O/Barbirolli (EMI) ***
San Francisco SO/Blomstedt (Decca) **
Helsinki PO/Segerstam (Ondine) ****
Finnish Radio SO/Saraste (RCA) ***
BBC PO/Storgards (Chandos) *
Iceland SO/Sakari (Naxos) ***
Pittsburgh SO/Lorin Maazel (Sony) *
Slovak PO/Leaper (Naxos) ***

Incomplete or in bits and bobs...:
Karajan (DGG) and (EMI) ***
Beecham (EMI) ***(**)
Ormandy (Sony) ***
Historical incl. Kajanus, Koussevitzky, Schneevoigt (***)
Berglund in London, 2,5,6,7. *****


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## Azol

Nice, I ordered Helsinki/Berglund several days ago... This music is in their blood. Going to love the set!


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## mbhaub

CnC Bartok said:


> San Francisco SO/Blomstedt (Decca) **
> Pittsburgh SO/Lorin Maazel (Sony) *


How different people perceive recordings is wildly hard to pin down, isn't it? These two in particular I think your rating is way off. The Blomstedt I would give *****. It's terrific: great playing, great conducting, and fine sound. The Maazel I would give ****. Tempos are more relaxed than some people may like, but the orchestral playing, the attention to detail, and the sound are all first rate. Even Hurwitz says it's the best 4th out there. Plus you get an excellent violin concerto - at least in one of the boxed releases. If I could have only one Sibelius set, either one would be fine. There is no perfect set from anyone, and that sure includes Rattle. Great music can withstand a wide range of interpretive views


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## Waehnen

mbhaub said:


> How different people perceive recordings is wildly hard to pin down, isn't it? These two in particular I think your rating is way off. The Blomstedt I would give *****. It's terrific: great playing, great conducting, and fine sound. The Maazel I would give ****. Tempos are more relaxed than some people may like, but the orchestral playing, the attention to detail, and the sound are all first rate. Even Hurwitz says it's the best 4th out there. Plus you get an excellent violin concerto - at least in one of the boxed releases. If I could have only one Sibelius set, either one would be fine. There is no perfect set from anyone, and that sure includes Rattle. Great music can withstand a wide range of interpretive views


I also adore the Blomstedt cycle. Almost as good as Neeme Järvi (DGG). Whereas I am a fan of Berglund/Bournemouth but not Berglund/Helsinki.

It sure is interesting how opinions differ.


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## vincula

Waehnen said:


> I also adore the Blomstedt cycle. Almost as good as Neeme Järvi (DGG). Whereas I am a fan of Berglund/Bournemouth but not Berglund/Helsinki.
> 
> It sure is interesting how opinions differ.


If you dig Berglund/Bournemouth (which I do too), you may want to check out Berglund/Chamber Orchestra of Europe too.

Regards,

Vincula


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## Waehnen

vincula said:


> If you dig Berglund/Bournemouth (which I do too), you may want to check out Berglund/Chamber Orchestra of Europe too.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Vincula


Yes, Berglund/COE is excellent especially in symphonies 3, 4, 6 and 7. The transparent chamber music approach however does not work as well in the more big sounding symphonies: 1, 2 and 5.


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## vincula

Probably so, that's why I own several cycles. If only one could do... Rattle won't be added to my collection any time soon though.

Regards,

Vincula


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## Waehnen

vincula said:


> Probably so, that's why I own several cycles. If only one could do... Rattle won't be added to my collection any time soon though.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Vincula


I have been considering creating a thread where people could post their favourite recorded version of each symphony. So far I haven´t been able to choose myself, so there is no such a thread yet!


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## CnC Bartok

mbhaub said:


> How different people perceive recordings is wildly hard to pin down, isn't it? These two in particular I think your rating is way off. The Blomstedt I would give *****. It's terrific: great playing, great conducting, and fine sound. The Maazel I would give ****. Tempos are more relaxed than some people may like, but the orchestral playing, the attention to detail, and the sound are all first rate. Even Hurwitz says it's the best 4th out there. Plus you get an excellent violin concerto - at least in one of the boxed releases. If I could have only one Sibelius set, either one would be fine. There is no perfect set from anyone, and that sure includes Rattle. Great music can withstand a wide range of interpretive views


I'm certainly not going to apologise, but I take your points on board. It's all personal choice anyway. I have probably not been fair on some cycles, but much of that could we ll be to do with when I heard them. I see little difference between Jarvi's BIS and DGG cycles, but prefer the former as it was the one I got to know first. The second cycle doesn't really add much, but had I heard it without knowing the BIS, I am sure I would like it more. And I am sure the same could well have happened with Davis, thrice; with Vanska (Minnesota is good, but what does it do that Lahti doesn't? Not much. Would I recommend to someone who doesn't insist on 20+ cycles? Yes I would!). And sorry, but Maazel did these works far better on Decca with the Vienna PO than in Pittsburgh.
I'm suspecting I should give Blomstedt another listen. It is a beautifully played cycle, lots of detail, either from the engineers or from Herbert, not sure who to commend there! But every time I have returned to any of them, they seem "safe". I do very much doubt I would feel the same if I listened "blind", but I can't be the only person who hears things that just aren't there....!


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## Merl

Waehnen said:


> I have been considering creating a thread where people could post their favourite recorded version of each symphony. So far I haven´t been able to choose myself, so there is no such a thread yet!


There's lots of old threads about recommended Sibelius recordings. Here's a few......

Best Recordings of Each Sibelius Symphony?
Sibelius - recommended symphony recordings please!
Favorite Sibelius Recordings


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## KevinW

I would rather expect Sir Simon Rattle doing the Sibelius cycle with the LSO and compare it with Sir Colin Davis LSO recordings.


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## Animal the Drummer

You do know Rattle is no longer chief conductor of the LSO, do you? He's with the Bavarian Radio Symphony Orch.now.


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## CnC Bartok

^^^^^ Not moving to Bavaria until 2023, as I understand!


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## Animal the Drummer

Oh, fair enough. Thanks for the info.


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## Waehnen

After warming up to Rattle’s Mahler, eventually I could not prevent myself from buying the Sibelius cycle. Only listened to 3rd, 6th and 7th yet but all are brilliant. Rattle and the Berlin does this music differently to anyone else. The energy level is high, musicianship is excellent, everything sounds good and the balance of the orchestra is perfect.

Now I have the very opposite versions of each symphony in every direction and think that I can settle here, eventually. 

On the Sibelius map, The Rattle/Berlin is the technical and aesthetic perfection in experienced musicality. I needed these versions, too.


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## Knorf

Waehnen said:


> On the Sibelius map, The Rattle/Berlin is the technical and aesthetic perfection in experienced musicality. I needed these versions, too.


And there you have it. Nothing wrong with this!


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## hoodjem

My favorite Sibelius cycles are the Vanska Lahti (BIS) and the Barbirolli Halle (EMI/Warner) sets.

Second favorites are Davis Boston (Phi) and Maazel Vienna (Dec/Lon) cycles, beautiful playing on both.


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