# The Dutch Republic & Baroque Music - What's Going On?



## classical yorkist (Jun 29, 2017)

Why were there so few high level Dutch composers in the Baroque period? They were going through a cultural & economic golden age from 1600-1700 yet I can only think of Sweelinck as a major composer. Am I missing something? I find the Renaissance composers from the Low Countries peerless, where did they go? Anyone have any recommendations or reasons why?


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## eugeneonagain (May 14, 2017)

Too busy making money out of imperialism via the VOC.

However.... I was reading something just recently about the trajectory of music between the mediaeval period on up to Bach and there is a discussion of the 'musical secrets' of the low countries and then the development of Bach in a totally different direction. I will try and find it.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

My feeling is that there was a lot of good music, but it's not well known, at least for keyboard stuff, composers like Peter Cornet and Abraham Kerckhoven.

From renaissance music there are also examples of very great Dutch composers who are too little known - Pipelare for example. Not to mention Jacob Obrecht.


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## eugeneonagain (May 14, 2017)

I have the impression that flute music (blokfluit and transverso) comprises the greatest output in the Netherlands.


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## classical yorkist (Jun 29, 2017)

It surprised me, given the cultural dominance in other areas of the 17th century, that Dutch music has such a low profile.


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## Tallisman (May 7, 2017)

It's a great mystery, really. It was perhaps the greatest economic and cultural renaissance the world has ever seen, which produced possibly the greatest painters of all time and numerous other cultural figures. Yet composers seem to be missing.

The only answer I can conjure up is that it was a time of relative secularisation, with money and imperialism taking precedence. Thus the fervent need to praise God with extreme pious endeavour (exemplified by Bach) was not as prevalent in the flat, contented, materially prosperous Holland.


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## classical yorkist (Jun 29, 2017)

Tallisman said:


> It's a great mystery, really. It was perhaps the greatest economic and cultural renaissance the world has ever seen, which produced possibly the greatest painters of all time and numerous other cultural figures. Yet composers seem to be missing.
> 
> The only answer I can conjure up is that it was a time of relative secularisation, with money and imperialism taking precedence. Thus the fervent need to praise God with extreme pious endeavour (exemplified by Bach) was not as prevalent in the flat, contented, materially prosperous Holland.


Ahh, this jogs my memory a little. Wasn't the Netherlands Calvinist? They were very strict about music, seeing it as unnecessary and decadent I think. Perhaps that explains a lack of Dutch music?


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## Taggart (Feb 14, 2013)

One theory is Calvinism.

Sweelinck is the best known of the Dutch composers. He was the son of an organist and trained by a Catholic organist. When Amsterdam went Calvinist the Catholics left and nobody knows how Sweelinck continued his training. The Calvinist style was controlled by the regulatve principle which meant that you could only use Bible forms in worship. The organist mainly played psalm tunes. Sweelinck was unusual because he was involved with the musical liturgies of three distinctly different traditions: Catholic, the Calvinist, and Lutheran. He was also friendly with Catholics like Peter Phillips. As in Scotland, the growth of Calvinism led to the decline of secular music.


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## eugeneonagain (May 14, 2017)

I'm not entirely convinced that merely the nature of 2nd/3rd wave reformation and Calvinism is responsible. The south of the Netherlands retained Catholicism, even though it was suppressed for long periods and dozens of prominent foreign Catholics lived without problem in essentially 'anti-catholic' regions. The period mentioned by the OP was a republic, so there was not the same sort of courtly life with private musicians and orchestras and money being thrown about by profligate monarchs. 

However, the focus here is only on official church and courtly music. Other avenues for musical expression existed and the churches did sponsor both organ building and concerts - no doubt to try and prevent people from attending bawdy inns where, incidentally, folk music would have been played. There were and are a huge number of grand organs in the churches here in the Netherlands. There is also the long tradition of musical bell playing on carillons. The Cathedral Church here in Utrecht still provides carillon concerts during the summer. One of the most famous musicians of the 17thC, the recorder and carillon player Jacob van Eyck, was paid for by the city authorities.

Generally people argue that the lack of court/church sponsorship is what led to no Dutch versions of Bach, or Haydn or Mozart, but after Bach not all musicians were sponsored by the official church or courts. Plenty received support from wealthy private patrons and there were enough of these in the Netherlands to allow for that. I'd also ask why some active composers came from places like Germany to the Netherlands if the conditions were so meagre? Also why great traditions of instrument-building flourished (particularly harpsichord and woodwind instrument building) if there was a suppressed musical life? 

Despite the official religious situation, there's no doubt that concert life still flourished among the aristocracy and wealthy citizens in the late 18th century and into the 19th because some famous composers included the Netherlands (mainly the Hague) in their European tours. 
Even though the oldest official conservatory, the one in the Hague was founded in 1826, there were similar musical organisations in most cities performing and surely teaching music in the master-apprentice fashion. So the possibility of developing skills existed.

As a modern counterpart I would compare the film industry here, which is also meagre, but has talent within it. That talent is most known for work in foreign film industries (like Hollywood).


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## brianvds (May 1, 2013)

Well, like the thread about the Black Death apparently not influencing music much, this is a very interesting one that I haven't thought of before. Once again I don't really know enough to say much. Seems to me that the distribution of musical genius doesn't make much sense anyway, so it's not just the Netherlands that's weird here. Lots of regions had sudden periods of enlightenment without necessarily starting to churn out great composers. 

Judged by such figures as Susato and Praetorius, from just before the period in question, it seems like there might have been quite a flowering of popular music. Trust the tolerant Dutch to allow such decadent stuff in their midst.


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## bioluminescentsquid (Jul 22, 2016)

I think people use "Calvinism" too much to explain what's going on in the Netherlands. 

Other Dutch composers I can think of
Dirk Janszoon Sweelinck (Son of the J.P. Sweelinck) 



Pieter Bustijn 



de Fresch 



Unico van Wasenaar 



Popma van Oevering 



Geraldus Havingha 



 (famous for being the organist who commissioned and defended the scandalous rebuild of the van Hagerbeer organ by Schnitger in Alkmaar)
Symbradus van Noordt 



Anthoni van Noordt 




I know the organist at the Martinikerk in Groningen around the time Schnitger rebuilt it (so late 17th century) also composed, but I don't remember his name.

Schenck was also Dutch, but I don't think he was very active before he moved to German-speaking areas. I could be wrong, though.
Reincken too.

The Netherlands was actually very active in music during the period; you can tell just from all the church records of organs, all the musicians involved in maintaining and assessing them, not to mention the amount of money used to build the organs themselves (e.g. Niewe Kerk, Oude Kerk, Haarlem, Alkmaar, Leiden Pieterskerk...) But I guess they didn't publish much; we have van Noordt's works only because he published them in the 1660's, while lots of works by comparable organists at the same time are lost. (e.g. the organist at the Niewe Kerk before van Noordt, Nicholas Lossy - no pun intended :lol: ) At the same time, some reputable music printers such as Estinne were active in the area. (although this was slightly later)

But although we don't have much music from organists at the time, we do have lots of other works - I think it's mainly because the Netherlands was such a mixing pot that the composers didn't have such a distinctive style as the Germans or French. Case in point, the music of S. van Noordt or Bustijn

Kerckhoven and Cornet are Flemish, not Dutch - I think more remains from the Flemish area (Simon Lohet, John Bull, Peter Phillips, etc.).


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## Larkenfield (Jun 5, 2017)

If one is willing to include the cultural area of the Dutch Republic with the Netherlands as a whole, there were _De Fresch, Groneman, Hurlebusch, Schickhardt and Solnitz._ Much of their music is delightful as lesser known Baroque treasures.


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## Casebearer (Jan 19, 2016)

eugeneonagain said:


> Too busy making money out of imperialism via the VOC.
> 
> However.... I was reading something just recently about the trajectory of music between the mediaeval period on up to Bach and there is a discussion of the 'musical secrets' of the low countries and then the development of Bach in a totally different direction. I will try and find it.


That would be interesting.


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## classical yorkist (Jun 29, 2017)

So it seems there is a fair amount of music out there it's just that it doesn't shout as loudly as other countries. I'd forgotten about Fesch, he's good. Should we include Locatelli?


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

bioluminescentsquid said:


> I think people use "Calvinism" too much to explain what's going on in the Netherlands.
> 
> Other Dutch composers I can think of
> Dirk Janszoon Sweelinck (Son of the J.P. Sweelinck)
> ...


Oh, sorry about Cornet and Kerckhoven. But I'd forgotten about Von Noordt, I have a recording dedicated to him by Leo van Doeselaar. I think the music is not at all bad. De Maque was Dutch I think, he's a good composer. It's just that like Reincken he left Holland early on in his musical career.


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## eugeneonagain (May 14, 2017)

Mandryka said:


> Oh, sorry about Cornet and Kerckhoven. But I'd forgotten about Von Noordt, I have a recording dedicated to him by Leo van Doeselaar. I think the music is not at all bad. De Maque was Dutch I think, he's a good composer. It's just that like Reincken he left Holland early on in his musical career.


Let's be clear though, hardly any (if any) of these composers has made a name for themselves outside of knowing circles, and that's the conundrum. For over 200 years the Netherlands has had a conservatory system, alongside, other music schools, teaching western classical music in much the same way as elsewhere. Many composers studied in Germany (as did quite a few British composers). The question for me is whether the dip in patronage or courtly musical life is ultimately responsible or not.

However, I'm putting a word in for Johan Wagenaar who was organist at the Cathedral here in Utrecht and was director of the Hague Conservatory. His piece for the church's carillon is still played from time-to-time. Someone on youtube has posted his symphonic works, which have a Mahler-ish feel.


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## bioluminescentsquid (Jul 22, 2016)

I think it would be pretty nice to make this a thread with obscure Dutch composers.
here's one: 




18th century organist of the Oude Kerk of Amsterdam; knew J.S. Bach personally.


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## bioluminescentsquid (Jul 22, 2016)

A beautiful little dance by G. Steenwick, organist at the Kampen Bovenkerk and tutor of Maria van Eyl, whose keyboard-notebook survives. Played on my 2nd favorite little organ, the 17th century Dutch organ in Midwolde.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Nice organ, and the piece also benefits from being cut short, I have heard it in harpsichord lasting about twice as long at least and it kind of wears out it's welcome.


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