# Best Wagner House



## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

It's been mentioned in this forum before that the Met just doesn't seem to be able to do Wagner well. Why this should be, I can't imagine, since the guy in charge - James Levine - certainly made Wagner a centerpiece of his ambitions for the house. If he couldn't get it done, why not, and who could?

But the poll is: over the last five or ten years, which house do you think has had the best Wagner?

I won't be able to answer my own poll, since I haven't been to any of the choices, but even if it's only on the basis of recordings issued, I was wondering if you all have ideas about that.


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## sharik (Jan 23, 2013)

Wien of course.


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## suteetat (Feb 25, 2013)

The Met's weakness is probably the house itself. I think Met Orchestra and Levine certainly is very capable of producing top notch performance but asking a singer to sing Wagner in a gigantic hall is not easy. Have not heard any live performance in Bayreuth but of those I heard, I also think Vienna is the most likely candidate, superb orchestra and incredible acoustic and make the singer's life much easier. 
This is not a very objective test but I heard Andrea Rost the first time in Rigoletto at La Scala and did not think much of her. A couple of years later, she came to Chicago and I still was not overly impressed. When I went to Vienna and looked up the schedule at State Opera, She was there again in Rigoletto and I thought oh, no.... To my big surprise, she sounded so much better. May be the first two times, she had an off night, may be I was in a better mood in Vienna. But I think the acoustic at State Opera really made a big difference. Of the three houses, Vienna is also the smallest by quite a bit.


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## Glissando (Nov 25, 2011)

Bayreuth. The acoustics are unique - all of the hard surfaces creates a lot of reverberation. That's what creates that buzzing, electric glow that fills the hall. I've never been there, but have heard several recordings. Another aspect of the acoustics is that because the pit is covered, the singers don't have to exert as much effort to bellow over the orchestra. That gives them more ability to focus on their dramatic presentation. 

Finally, the quality of the acting that I've seen in the DVDs of Bayreuth performances has been top-notch. They only perform Wagner there, and they spend months preparing for the performances, getting every nuance right. 

Many modern opera houses produce dozens of different productions from year to year, whereas Bayreuth only focuses on Wagner's works. This means that they can do the best job of anyone. 

The performances of the Ring that I've seen from the Met have not been necessarily bad, but they are lackluster when you compare to Bayreuth.


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## suteetat (Feb 25, 2013)

Bayreuth should technically be the best house for Wagner for sure. The only reason I did not pick Bayreuth is because of the singers. It seems that many singers avoid Bayreuth for various reasons, some of them, perhaps, not so good reasons. Bayreuth pays less, it is a priviledge to sing there, long long rehearsal periods in which some singers prefer to spend their summer with their children when they are off school. Politics? When James Morris was the Wotan to have, he mentioned that he never sang at Bayreuth because earlier in his career, he turned down Bayreuth to sing Dutchman at Santa Fe so he could be with his wife who performed there. Since then, Bayreuth never extended an invitation to him again. Whatever the reason, it seems that all the CDs, DVDs, bluray from Bayreuth in the last 20 years, I have not seen one that I thought have the best possible lineup of singers that Vienna, New York, London etc etc could muster.


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## Glissando (Nov 25, 2011)

suteetat said:


> Bayreuth should technically be the best house for Wagner for sure. The only reason I did not pick Bayreuth is because of the singers. It seems that many singers avoid Bayreuth for various reasons, some of them, perhaps, not so good reasons. Bayreuth pays less, it is a priviledge to sing there, long long rehearsal periods in which some singers prefer to spend their summer with their children when they are off school. Politics? When James Morris was the Wotan to have, he mentioned that he never sang at Bayreuth because earlier in his career, he turned down Bayreuth to sing Dutchman at Santa Fe so he could be with his wife who performed there. Since then, Bayreuth never extended an invitation to him again. Whatever the reason, it seems that all the CDs, DVDs, bluray from Bayreuth in the last 20 years, I have not seen one that I thought have the best possible lineup of singers that Vienna, New York, London etc etc could muster.


Personally I feel that Morris' lackluster acting skills were a reason why the 1989 Met Ring feels unsuccessful to me. I'm a big fan of the '76 Boulez/Chereau Ring in part because the acting is excellent.

I'm not as familiar with the last 20 years, but from the DVDs I've seen from the '70s and '80s, it's no contest: I feel that the Bayreuth performances are consistently better than the Met performances, from the singing to the acting to the orchestra to the stage direction, etc. It just feels like a much more complete experience. However, in light of your experience, perhaps things have gone downhill since then.


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## Zabirilog (Mar 10, 2013)

Bayreuth, if they just could get proper singers there.


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## suteetat (Feb 25, 2013)

Glissando said:


> Personally I feel that Morris' lackluster acting skills were a reason why the 1989 Met Ring feels unsuccessful to me. I'm a big fan of the '76 Boulez/Chereau Ring in part because the acting is excellent.
> 
> I'm not as familiar with the last 20 years, but from the DVDs I've seen from the '70s and '80s, it's no contest: I feel that the Bayreuth performances are consistently better than the Met performances, from the singing to the acting to the orchestra to the stage direction, etc. It just feels like a much more complete experience. However, in light of your experience, perhaps things have gone downhill since then.


Totally agree with you there. Bayreuth recording from the 50's-60's seemed to have the top Wagner singers, if not the best possible, still a very starry top class singers. The line up now aday is just less impressive although there are still some very good singers who sing there regularly. I like Boulez's cycle mainly for Boulez although the singers weren't all that impressive in general.
Some people may prefer Tomlinson over Morris but his Wotan, especially in Haitink set and when I saw him in Chicago was really impressive. Barenboim's Ring cycle again was great mainly because of Barenboim. Anne Evans had a great idea and sang Brunnhilde well but her basic voice was not really a true Brunnhilde. Nadine Secunde was just so so as Sieglinde. Paul Elming was ok. Siegfried Jerusalem at the time was probably the best Siegfriend available but really, I think he is a much better Siegmund and Loge.
Still though, I would love to attend performance at Bayreuth one of these days if I can figure out how to get tickets


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## sharik (Jan 23, 2013)

Glissando said:


> Morris' lackluster acting skills were a reason why the 1989 Met Ring feels unsuccessful to me. I'm a big fan of the '76 Boulez/Chereau Ring in part because the acting is excellent


i've watched that Met Ring several times already and i find Morris one of the best Wotans, and as for acting - it's certainly not Bayreuth can show how to do it.


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

Zabirilog said:


> Bayreuth, if they just could get proper singers there.


Singers are the least of Bayreuth's problems. They need an overhaul in management, starting with the Wagners.


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## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

suteetat said:


> The Met's weakness is probably the house itself. I think Met Orchestra and Levine certainly is very capable of producing top notch performance but asking a singer to sing Wagner in a gigantic hall is not easy. Have not heard any live performance in Bayreuth but of those I heard, I also think Vienna is the most likely candidate, superb orchestra and incredible acoustic and make the singer's life much easier.
> This is not a very objective test but I heard Andrea Rost the first time in Rigoletto at La Scala and did not think much of her. A couple of years later, she came to Chicago and I still was not overly impressed. When I went to Vienna and looked up the schedule at State Opera, She was there again in Rigoletto and I thought oh, no.... To my big surprise, she sounded so much better. May be the first two times, she had an off night, may be I was in a better mood in Vienna. But I think the acoustic at State Opera really made a big difference. Of the three houses, Vienna is also the smallest by quite a bit.


Very thoughtful. I remember in Joe Volpe's book on his term as GM at the Met he mentioned that they really should tear it down and build a smaller house, and that would fix a lot of what's wrong at the Met - not filling the house, tickets too easy to get, singers have a hard time, have to sing too hard.

It seems to me though that the problem with building a new house is: Avery Fisher Hall. If they rebuild the Met smaller, and if it turns out that the acoustics are not right and cannot be fixed, they've destroyed a treasure. If they could bring themselves to copy Carnegie Hall precisely, though, think what that would do - improve the acoustics and give them a fabulous house. Ah well. If only I was running things, right? lol


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## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

Glissando said:


> Bayreuth. The acoustics are unique - all of the hard surfaces creates a lot of reverberation. That's what creates that buzzing, electric glow that fills the hall. I've never been there, but have heard several recordings. Another aspect of the acoustics is that because the pit is covered, the singers don't have to exert as much effort to bellow over the orchestra. That gives them more ability to focus on their dramatic presentation.
> 
> Finally, the quality of the acting that I've seen in the DVDs of Bayreuth performances has been top-notch. They only perform Wagner there, and they spend months preparing for the performances, getting every nuance right.
> 
> ...


Wouldn't it be nice to be able to take a year and go from one to the next and compare, eh? You've given me a lot to think about.


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## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

sharik said:


> ... and as for acting - it's certainly not Bayreuth can show how to do it.


Sorry, this didn't make sense to me. Could you rephrase that?


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## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

Couchie said:


> Singers are the least of Bayreuth's problems. They need an overhaul in management, starting with the Wagners.


What have you heard, that's wrong with their management? Or have you worked there yourself?


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## Zabirilog (Mar 10, 2013)

If someone just could say "Dear Katharina, could you please get Kaufmann, Pape, and Westbroek here?"


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## sharik (Jan 23, 2013)

guythegreg said:


> Sorry, this didn't make sense to me. Could you rephrase that?


German theatre acting sucks while that of the US is ok.


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## Ebab (Mar 9, 2013)

suteetat said:


> Still though, I would love to attend performance at Bayreuth one of these days if I can figure out how to get tickets


Just to be sure - you do know that "all" it takes is patience, even going through the regular channel. You need to order tickets every year - make sure you're always using the same reference ID that they're giving to you - and after some years (in my case: seven), your order will get through.


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## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

My god. I never heard it was so hard to get tickets there. Maybe we should start a new poll, hardest house to get tickets at, eh?


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## Ebab (Mar 9, 2013)

guythegreg said:


> My god. I never heard it was so hard to get tickets there.


Yes, they're notoriously hard to get, but Bayreuth is also notoriously obscure regarding how these tickets are being distributed (although an annual sum of currently 2.3 million Bavarian tax Euros goes into the festival). It's another of those things regarding Bayreuth that is peculiar.


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## suteetat (Feb 25, 2013)

guythegreg said:


> My god. I never heard it was so hard to get tickets there. Maybe we should start a new poll, hardest house to get tickets at, eh?


I heard average waiting list is closer to 10 years now if you go through normal channel. You apply for ticket every year, every year that you don't get ticket, you will get higher priority the next year and so on until you will eventually get one.
I heard a few years back that there are about 30,000 tickets available for the public and proximately 300,000 requests for ticket or something like that. Some tour companies, sponsors, Wagner societies will get certain number of tickets so that will be a shorter way of getting it.

Every year I had a thought that may be I should start applying for tickets but I have just not been able to get the motion started yet 

I met a few people who have some serious connections, board members of major festivals etc who kind of allude to the facts that they can get tickets there but before I had a chance to open my mouth to ask, they always said, it is not all that its cracked up to be, it is not the same as in the past etc etc don't bother, may be they just know what I want to ask next and tried to stop me from asking 

Yep Bayreuth is definitely the hardest tickets to get by far.



> Very thoughtful. I remember in Joe Volpe's book on his term as GM at the Met he mentioned that they really should tear it down and build a smaller house, and that would fix a lot of what's wrong at the Met - not filling the house, tickets too easy to get, singers have a hard time, have to sing too hard.


I think the Met was also thinking for years of adding smaller hall like a mini met which would be more suitable to some operas and singers. However, with less seats, the ticket price will have to be sky high or else it would not be financially viable. 
Opera houses in Europe are generally much smaller than the Met, Chicago or San Francisco so the experience will be quite different. I think the Met is a very well design hall and for its size, the acoustic is very good. Unfortunately a well made small hall will always have advantage over an oversize well designed hall, all else being equal.


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## Glissando (Nov 25, 2011)

sharik said:


> i've watched that Met Ring several times already and i find Morris one of the best Wotans, and as for acting - it's certainly not Bayreuth can show how to do it.


Many people agree with you, but it's all a matter of personal taste. I like Morris' voice a lot but I'm not compelled by him dramatically. Many others think the Boulez Ring is an abomination.


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

Actually the Wagner societies and tour groups have been cut off from their "privileged" access to tickets. The wait time is expected to be reduced to ~5 years.


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## suteetat (Feb 25, 2013)

Couchie said:


> Actually the Wagner societies and tour groups have been cut off from their "privileged" access to tickets. The wait time is expected to be reduced to ~5 years.


Good news. I have not looked into the process very much. Let say that when it is your turn to get the tickets, can you choose number of performances, which operas, which, dates during the season or do you put in specific dates and performance when you initially apply for that year?


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## Ebab (Mar 9, 2013)

suteetat said:


> Couchie said:
> 
> 
> > Actually the Wagner societies and tour groups have been cut off from their "privileged" access to tickets. The wait time is expected to be reduced to ~5 years.
> ...


My husband joined the _Gesellschaft der Freunde von Bayreuth_ (Bayreuth's largest sponsor) and received tickets through them already in the same year. Their membership fees are substantial.

And yes, the distribution practice has been changed in 2012, after major criticism and even investigations. It is now 65% instead of 40% of the tickets going through regular sales. The society mentioned above will still get their old quota though.



suteetat said:


> Let say that when it is your turn to get the tickets, can you choose number of performances, which operas, which, dates during the season or do you put in specific dates and performance when you initially apply for that year?


When ordering tickets, you request specific performances. If your order has been confirmed and it turns out you can't make that date, the ticket office will usually be ready to try and find another slot. But of course, there's no guarantee that it'll work. If you can't absolutely make it that year, you can also write to them; normally you will not lose your high priority and get another chance in the next year.

All that is strictly empirical of course.


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## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

Ebab said:


> My husband joined the _Gesellschaft der Freunde von Bayreuth_ (Bayreuth's largest sponsor) and received tickets through them already in the same year. Their membership fees are substantial.


Sounds like news that bears repeating!


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## SiegendesLicht (Mar 4, 2012)

I'd love to visit Bayreuth, but only after they take the rats and other suchlike stupid ideas out of it. It's not worth paying the price of a ticket plus hotel and travel expenses plus waiting for all that time to see a performance during which I will have to keep my eyes shut and just listen in. I can do the same with a CD at home just fine! However I do believe in the Bayreuthers' common sense and trust them to perform the necessary rodent-expelling operation one day. Until then maybe some day I will just take a train to that Bavarian town and walk the same streets that the Master once walked.


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

Der best Wagnerhaus is where Waltraud Meier is heard.


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## suteetat (Feb 25, 2013)

Couchie said:


> Der best Wagnerhaus is where Waltraud Meier is heard.


I heard Meier several times, unfortunately every time she showed up, she never sang Wagner 
I heard her as Carmen, Santuzza, Donna Elvira, Verdi's Requeim, in a concert where she sang Berlioz' La moret de Cleopatra.
The one time that I thought it would be something closest to what she would excelled at the most, Marie in Wozzeck, she cancelled! When will I ever get to hear her in Wagner


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

The Feestspielhaus in Bayreuth is a part of the 'instrument' / the intended acoustic circumstance, as planned for and determined by the composer. Any other venue, with the orchestra more front and center, not under the stage, not muffled, the hall not fully wood paneled (even the seats are wood, sans cushion, as part of the plan) is going to be far less than what is intended, and always 'problematic.'

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bayreuth_Festspielhaus


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

You must be in Europe as you neglected to mention Seattle. We do it every 4 years, people from all over the world come here to see it, it gets rave reviews, the latest Green Ring was about as traditional ( which I prefer) and beautiful as one could imagine, with top notch singers such as Stephanie Blythe, Ewa Podles, Jane Eaglen, and the Ring debut of the super handsome Southerner who is Siegfried in the Met Ring whose 3 names escape me. Asher Fisch has been conductor and is marvelous. A bonus is the marvelous acoustics of the house and the jawdropping beauty of Seattle in the summer. It will be put on this summer.Many consider it the best place to see The Ring in North America if not the world.


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## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

Seattleoperafan said:


> You must be in Europe as you neglected to mention Seattle.


Close - Brooklyn :lol:



> We do it every 4 years, people from all over the world come here to see it, it gets rave reviews, the latest Green Ring was about as traditional ( which I prefer) and beautiful as one could imagine, with top notch singers such as Stephanie Blythe, Ewa Podles, Jane Eaglen, and the Ring debut of the super handsome Southerner who is Siegfried in the Met Ring whose 3 names escape me. Asher Fisch has been conductor and is marvelous.


Sorry I left it out!



> ... the jawdropping beauty of Seattle in the summer.


Hmm ... I've been to Seattle in the summer a few times, I don't remember much that was beautiful ... now, the Olympic Peninsula is right there, and that's pretty awesome. And Mt. Rainier ... but both of those are some distance from Seattle. I'm from Spokane most recently, so that probably explains my prejudice ... we had a saying: in Spokane you can get anywhere in fifteen minutes ... in Seattle you can't get anywhere in fifteen minutes!

unfortunately there is NO OPERA to speak of in Spokane, so even if it's only half as good as advertised, you'd have to go to Seattle to get any worth seeing, however! I don't doubt they put on a pretty good show.


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## SiegendesLicht (Mar 4, 2012)

I've seen only parts of the Seattle Ring on YouTube, and it looks magical!


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## Ebab (Mar 9, 2013)

PetrB said:


> The Feestspielhaus in Bayreuth is a part of the 'instrument' / the intended acoustic circumstance, as planned for and determined by the composer. Any other venue, with the orchestra more front and center, not under the stage, not muffled, the hall not fully wood paneled (even the seats are wood, sans cushion, as part of the plan) is going to be far less than what is intended, and always 'problematic.'


The _Festspielhaus_ Bayreuth is indeed the ideal venue for Wagner's operas, for multiple, oft-described reasons. Created from an innovative, likewise simple (i.e. reduced to the necessary, no-frills) and brilliant conception, a little luck helped, too, so that it really turned out as imagined. A performance there, under these fortunate conditions, is a remarkable experience all by itself, and the difference compared to that of conventional opera houses cannot really be reproduced even by state-of-the-art audiovisual media.

I wouldn't go quite as far as to call performances of Wagner operas in other venues as 'problematic' per se. Only three of Wagner's operas premiered in the eventually realized _Festspielhaus_; and even after its completion, Wagner oversaw (or let oversee) various performances in other places. It can be done. And even the Bayreuth acoustics are not a "silver bullet". The eternal Wagnerian problem of loudness between singers and orchestra is, and has always been, a problem even in Bayreuth, and has to be solved (or rather approximated) every performance evening.


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## Chi_townPhilly (Apr 21, 2007)

guythegreg said:


> It's been mentioned in this forum before that the Met just doesn't seem to be able to do Wagner well.


Suppose it's safe to say they don't do Wagner _ideally_... but really, who does- or who ever _has?_

I guess it would be possible to come close to ideal Wagner by coursing one's way through a hybrid approach:

Musicians- Vienna
Singers- Met [at least, they would have the best chance 
of winning the bidding war involved in landing the best ones]
Staging- Seattle
Acoustics, Chorus- Bayreuth
Seating- Covent Garden


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## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

Chi_townPhilly said:


> Suppose it's safe to say they don't do Wagner _ideally_... but really, who does- or who ever _has?_
> 
> I guess it would be possible to come close to ideal Wagner by coursing one's way through a hybrid approach:
> 
> ...


Interesting! Also, it's interesting that you think the Met has been winning "bidding wars" over artists - since Joe Volpe's book and I think Molto Agitato as well both claim that singers get more money in Europe. Do you think that's not true? I mean, I assumed the top singers were getting something personal out of appearing at the Met - you know, like Maria Callas, grew up listening to the Met and dreamed of singing there, that kind of thing.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

guythegreg said:


> Close - Brooklyn :lol:
> 
> Sorry I left it out!
> 
> ...


Check out my brother's extensive website on the beauty of Seattle: dazzlingplaces.com. with thousands of photos of our best as well as lesser known attractions and gardens.


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## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

Woah! I poked around in your brother's site a bit ... looks like I missed a few things while I was there! I was wondering if nine acres was enough room to display 3500 cars, and it turns out that's about ten feet square per car, so yeah, plenty of room ... and the museum looks great too.


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## onmeds (Apr 23, 2013)

the Met is sound, structurally. But of course.
Yet for Wagner, it is -shall we say- Incomplete.
The acoustics are from a 1920's design construct
which limits the range of musical variance that
Wagner is known for. It flattens out, in a manner
of speaking. Try listening to Verdaccio's 'Ah Men'


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

Yeah the Met sucks. Even the COC is now billing itself as N.America's finest opera house.


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## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

Couchie said:


> Yeah the Met sucks. Even the COC is now billing itself as N.America's finest opera house.


No, no - the Met does not suck. They don't do Wagner as well as we might wish - but as StLukesGuild pointed out, Wagner isn't really as popular of a composer as his supporters are vocal, and there aren't any other composers that I know of that they have a similar problem with. The Met is the best or one of the best houses in the world, and I think they're in the middle of a kind of Golden Age of opera production.


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## Cavaradossi (Aug 2, 2012)

This is one I'm hesitant to vote on too, having only been to one of the above houses and for non-Wagner events only, but my answer would be: wherever Daniel Barenboim is conducting. So his opera home of late, La Scala, got my vote. 

The "wherever Daniel Barenboim is conducting" criteria includes the Met, by the way. I made it a point to catch his 2008 Tristan and Isolde there. That experience proved to me that, whatever the Met's Wagner shortcomings, it's not the orchestra or the house. Perhaps it's just the acoustics of the side boxes, but I recall the distinct sensation of the music physically rising from the orchestra pit and washing over us in wave after glorious wave.


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## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

Cavaradossi said:


> This is one I'm hesitant to vote on too, having only been to one of the above houses and for non-Wagner events only, but my answer would be: wherever Daniel Barenboim is conducting. So his opera home of late, La Scala, got my vote.
> 
> The "wherever Daniel Barenboim is conducting" criteria includes the Met, by the way. I made it a point to catch his 2008 Tristan and Isolde there. That experience proved to me that, whatever the Met's Wagner shortcomings, it's not the orchestra or the house. Perhaps it's just the acoustics of the side boxes, but I recall the distinct sensation of the music physically rising from the orchestra pit and washing over us in wave after glorious wave.


Hmm! So I just need to wait for them to get Barenboim back ... gosh, it could be a while.


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## Cavaradossi (Aug 2, 2012)

guythegreg said:


> Hmm! So I just need to wait for them to get Barenboim back ... gosh, it could be a while.


Yup, could be... seeing as how he debuted at Bayreuth in 1981 but it took the Met until 2008 to get him on the conductor's podium.


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