# Schubert's Eighth Symphony Question



## gellio (Nov 7, 2013)

Hi All - 

I got the Schubert Edition 1 on DG a while back. His Eighth Symphony is my favorite work of Schubert's. The Schubert Edition includes Marriner's recording of a completed Eighth. Does anyone know how much of the Scherzo that Schubert completed and orchestrated. I read he completed and orchestrated the first two pages of the Scherzo. What would two pages quantify in track time. The first minute of the Scherzo is absolutely fantastic, making me more disappointed Schubert never completed it.


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## Larkenfield (Jun 5, 2017)

It was a pleasure to hear this truly immortal symphony again. It has continued to endure despite originally being only half completed... Two orchestrated pages of the Scherzo would probably only be about 13 bars of manuscript—not that much timewise... Of all the works Schubert left unfinished, this is the one I wish he'd completed—he had six years to do it. What he did complete is so compelling in its sense of dramatic suspense and I believe it shows his gift as an inspired melodic genius and how much a memorable lyric composition can carry a work along and still have dramatic contrast in these two completed movements. It's what some critics miss who are looking for the same type of development and counterpoint that Beethoven used with his own themes. But Schubert didn't need that when he was being swept along by what seems like a continual outpouring of notes with a passionate, overriding sense of inspiration. Just beautiful.


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## gellio (Nov 7, 2013)

That’s for your reply. The Marriner completion uses the Rosamunde Entr’Acte, and I can see why those that argue it is the finale, make that argument. The Scherzo is just fantastic. It is based off what he left and the piano score. It’s an interesting thought that this might be close-ish to what a completed 8th would be.

It’s interesting you bring up Beethoven. He, Mozart and Schubert are my favorite composers. Beethoven’s Sixth is my favorite Symphony, but a completed Schubert’s 8th would get it a run for its money. I just think the first two movements are so fantastic. Truly saddens me that it was completed, because it is everything you said and more.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

I have heard the completion and to be honest it didn't do much for me. Some works are better left as the composer left it unfinished. It is a staggering masterpiece as it stands


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## gellio (Nov 7, 2013)

DavidA said:


> I have heard the completion and to be honest it didn't do much for me. Some works are better left as the composer left it unfinished. It is a staggering masterpiece as it stands


I would agree, but it is interesting to hear what could have been. I certainly love the beginning of the Scherzo.


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## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

In general, I don't mind completions by others - we'd be so much poorer without a lot of them. But one exception I make is with the Unfinished. I have a cd of one, and sat through a performance of another several years ago. Neither is worthy of the attempt and are a blight on Schubert. And I really don't even like the symphony all that much.


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

mbhaub said:


> In general, I don't mind completions by others - we'd be so much poorer without a lot of them. But one exception I make is with the Unfinished. I have a cd of one, and sat through a performance of another several years ago. Neither is worthy of the attempt and are a blight on Schubert. And I really don't even like the symphony all that much.


My feelings exactly, well, except for the last sentence. I love the 8th as it is, perfect in its 2 movements.


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## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

While we're on it, has anyone else noticed a recent re-numbering of the Schubert's symphonies? I was listening to some Berlin Philharmonic concerts on their fabulous website and now the Unfinished is Number 7, and the once Great C Major Symphony no. 9 is now Number 8. I guess it makes sense, since we really never had a real 7th anyway. But with almost 200 years of everyone know the last two as 8 and 9, I wonder if its too late. I still see the Dvorak New World occasionally referred to has no. 5.


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## gellio (Nov 7, 2013)

mbhaub said:


> While we're on it, has anyone else noticed a recent re-numbering of the Schubert's symphonies? I was listening to some Berlin Philharmonic concerts on their fabulous website and now the Unfinished is Number 7, and the once Great C Major Symphony no. 9 is now Number 8. I guess it makes sense, since we really never had a real 7th anyway. But with almost 200 years of everyone know the last two as 8 and 9, I wonder if its too late. I still see the Dvorak New World occasionally referred to has no. 5.


I was just reading about this today, because I saw a Harnoncourt box set (with symphonies, masses and Alfonso). I was like, "What? He didn't do the 9th?" Then I saw the 7ths with "Unfinished" (in German after it) and thought what's that all about? I did some research. Some number the _Great_ no. 7 and the _Unfinished_ no. 8. That's weird to me, but that was based on a cataloguing of only completed works in 1897, so the 7th was given no number. Schubert fully sketched out his Seventh Symphony, so in my eyes the 8th will always be the _Unfinished_ and the 9th will always be the _Great_.


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## gellio (Nov 7, 2013)

Art Rock said:


> My feelings exactly, well, except for the last sentence. I love the 8th as it is, perfect in its 2 movements.


Yes, it was interesting to hear it, and I'll probably listen to the Scherzo from time to time, but the 8th is what it is and it's perfect because of it. I LOVE the symphony and am thankful for that.


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## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

Have not heard the scherzo but will listen. Its hard to imagine it being satisfactory. As others have said - the 2 mvts are such stunning music it ought to be left alone.


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

The approach to another of Schubert's unfinished symphonies (the so-called 10th) taken by Berio in his piece, Rendering, is perhaps a more meaningful approach to unfinished works, particularly when the sketches are so fragmentary. You get bits of Schubert interspersed with bit of Berio, making a convincing and living whole work. It makes me think of an English city with the spotlit ruins of a castle somewhere near the centre (I am thinking of Carlisle if anyone knows it) - the ruins of history are there but in a contemporary presentation.

Other than that I am happy with The Unfinished (the 8th or now the 7th) as it is and don't need it to be completed. I actually feel that Schubert found it a little overblown, a little too Gothic, and lost interest in it. I do love what we have of it but can be quite fussy about the performance: it can easily become boring.


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## SONNET CLV (May 31, 2014)

I remain one of those who loves the Schubert 8th, unfinished as it may well be, or not. To my own tastes, it seems complete. And that's how I've long felt Schubert thought of the work, which was why he never bothered to finish the last two movements.

I hear the symphony, in its two movements, as a reflection upon two worlds: this one, and that other one. Does any symphony start with a more forbidding opening passage than Schubert's 8th? That first movement, in its struggles and darkness, suggests an earthly life, especially one akin to what the sickly Schubert likely experienced. And, does any second symphonic movement open with such serenity as is found in the Schubert 8th "Andante con moto"? I am not a big believer in after-lifes (though I remain a staunch Dantean and even stauncher Schubertian!), but that afterworld that Schubert seems to be reflecting upon in his 8th Symphony second movement would well satisfy me in case I need a default position.

I will admit I have never been a great fan of the Schubert Ninth. I try this symphony in my listening sessions every so often, yet I have never been convinced that it is really "the Great" Schubertian symphony. I always fall back to the 8th, whose textural sound is so unlike that of the other Schubert symphonies. It seems an otherworldly work, almost in a class of its own.

I do recall having heard completions of that other unfinished Schubert symphony, the 7th. I have at least one recording in my current collection, on a vinyl LP in a Schubert box set. What I recall is that it had a sound that reminded me immediately of Bruckner. Whether that was Schubert's doing or the result of the score editor (I'll have to look up that work and perhaps give it a spin here, soon) I don't know, but I remember that I found the work intriguing and preferable to the "Great" Ninth.

Finally, I admit that my distaste for the Ninth disturbs me. My logic tells me, Schubert worshipper that I am, that it is a true shrine amongst musics. Yet, I still have not cracked into its mysteries, apparently. And, one of the things I enjoy most about Schubert's music is that it always presents mysteries. So, I remain annoyed at my own shortcomings with regard to the Ninth Symphony.

But the Eighth? The great _Unfinished_? The perfect symphony, to my ears! Complete as it could be!


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## Strange Magic (Sep 14, 2015)

SONNET CLV said:


> I will admit I have never been a great fan of the Schubert Ninth. I try this symphony in my listening sessions every so often, yet I have never been convinced that it is really "the Great" Schubertian symphony. I always fall back to the 8th, whose textural sound is so unlike that of the other Schubert symphonies. It seems an otherworldly work, almost in a class of its own.
> 
> Finally, I admit that my distaste for the Ninth disturbs me. My logic tells me, Schubert worshipper that I am, that it is a true shrine amongst musics. Yet, I still have not cracked into its mysteries, apparently. And, one of the things I enjoy most about Schubert's music is that it always presents mysteries. So, I remain annoyed at my own shortcomings with regard to the Ninth Symphony.


You are not alone. People have been long troubled by the C major symphony, beautiful as much of it is. The Gesellschaft der Musikfreunde shelved it as too long when Schubert submitted it. Herbert Von Karajan has been fingered as never having been able to "understand" the Ninth. The dour duo of critics Brockway and Weinstock, in _Men of Music_, call the C major Schubert's masterpiece, but not a Schubertian masterpiece. They go on: "The main themes throughout...are the stuff of which great music can be made, utterly beautiful in themselves and susceptible of infinite development. But alas! It was again on the rock of development that Schubert foundered. After proving conclusively that he could write page after page of great symphonic music, he seems to have unfocused his attention on the extremely difficult business at hand, and to have lapsed into a vein of irrelevant garrulousness. Thus, the C major concludes on a maundering, inconsequential note after a beginning as promising as any symphony ever had."

I love the C major as the skeleton or draft upon which a towering musical edifice could have been constructed, had Schubert had more in his toolkit. As I listen, full of appreciation for those wonderful main themes, yet a part of me asks Is This All There Is? So, in this sense, the Ninth represents Schubert's second Unfinished Symphony.


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## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

The moniker "The Great" is an unfortunate problem of translation from the German "Die Grosse" - yes, it translates as "great", but as in "great big". Large. Huge. That's the proper rendering into English. Sure, there are some people who feel it is a great, undeniable masterwork (I am not of that opinion) but it got the name because of it's inordinate length. At a time when most symphonies clocked in around 35-40 minutes, the near hour length of this symphony was responsible for its name.


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## Pyotr (Feb 26, 2013)

As musicologist Josquin13 opined in the "_Who wrote the best 9th symphony?_" thread, when a composer sat down to write his ninth symphony he was in the long shadow of you-know-who. I believe that this explains what Schubert was thinking - he saved his best and greatest for last and left the eighth unfinished so that he could get to his ninth.

I know, I know, it's doubtful that, at the time, Schubert knew that his symphony in C major was going to be labeled number nine, still, I do not think that it's a coincidence that Beethoven's ninth was first performed in May of 1824, and the following spring Schubert began on what he himself stated that he was preparing to write "a grand symphony, " whether he meant "long" or "great" doesn't matter, after what happened on May 7th 1824, he knew it had to be damn good. IMO the moniker "The Great" is not unfortunate, hey, if the shoe fits.

I didn't mean to hijack this thread and just want to add that the Schubert's eighth is one of my favorites too. It's moniker is, IMO, the unfortunate one, it's anything but "incomplete."


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## gellio (Nov 7, 2013)

I love the 9th. My favorites are definitely 8, 4, and 5, but the 9th is right up there.


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## 13hm13 (Oct 31, 2016)

Haven't heard this recording of 8th before, but it may be a new fave:






Performed by Charles Mackerras and the Orchestra of the Age of Enlightenment (1990).


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## jim prideaux (May 30, 2013)

mbhaub said:


> While we're on it, has anyone else noticed a recent re-numbering of the Schubert's symphonies? I was listening to some Berlin Philharmonic concerts on their fabulous website and now the Unfinished is Number 7, and the once Great C Major Symphony no. 9 is now Number 8. I guess it makes sense, since we really never had a real 7th anyway. But with almost 200 years of everyone know the last two as 8 and 9, I wonder if its too late. I still see the Dvorak New World occasionally referred to has no. 5.


Manacorda's relatively recent (and impressive)recording with the Kammerakademie Potsdam refers to the symphony as the 7th and the 'Great'as the 8th.


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## jim prideaux (May 30, 2013)

13hm13 said:


> Haven't heard this recording of 8th before, but it may be a new fave:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


listening right now to this recording as I have spent the last few days with different recordings of various Schubert symphonies......might well have to agree!


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## Open Book (Aug 14, 2018)

SONNET CLV said:


> I will admit I have never been a great fan of the Schubert Ninth. I try this symphony in my listening sessions every so often, yet I have never been convinced that it is really "the Great" Schubertian symphony.
> 
> Finally, I admit that my distaste for the Ninth disturbs me. My logic tells me, Schubert worshipper that I am, that it is a true shrine amongst musics. Yet, I still have not cracked into its mysteries, apparently. And, one of the things I enjoy most about Schubert's music is that it always presents mysteries. So, I remain annoyed at my own shortcomings with regard to the Ninth Symphony.


Ivan Fischer recently conducted Schubert's 9th with the Berlin Philharmonic. In his interview at intermission he remarked about the constant pulse it has in every movement, unlike any other symphony, tiring for musicians to play because it's relentless. To him that pulse, almost like in dance music, was the mark of a work that is meant to be lighter and have more of a populist appeal than previous symphonies. He compared it to music of Rossini. Not sure I agree, but an interesting take on it.


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