# Slowest Adagietto? (Mahler's 5th)



## flamencosketches (Jan 4, 2019)

I must confess, I'm a sucker for a slow Adagietto. I stumbled upon this video of a hack maestro, conducting digital instruments, by accident...:






... and somehow, I am intrigued. Obviously, this is perverse and, one might argue, not truly Mahler. But somehow I think the music actually holds up when suspended into zero gravity like this. It almost takes on a Feldmanian character of "stillness music".

Anyway, this is a very extreme and silly example. But surely there are some slow Adagiettos on record. I know Karajan/Berlin in their (in)famous recording of the 5th has an Adagietto that clocks in at nearly 12 minutes. It's beautiful. I don't like the rest of the recording much, but that's a damn fine Adagietto if you ask me. But who has done it even slower? I've heard the Vänskä/Minnesota is closer to 13 minutes! Has anyone ever beat that?

I hope this thread does not incite a serious flame war... for what it's worth, I like brisker Adagiettos, too. I heard Barshai/Junge Deutsche Philharmonia earlier and it was great. Under 9 minutes. But I am curious about this to see if anyone feels like I do...


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## Allegro Con Brio (Jan 3, 2020)

Here's a long list of timings from fastest to slowest, copied from this thread: Mahler would be fined for speeding In his own adagietto Looks like the slowest on record is practically a tie (5 second difference) between Tennstedt and Haitink, both of which clock in at slightly over 18 minutes!!!!! I personally cannot stand it when dragged out to such lengths, but to each their own of course. P.S. How did you like Barshai's 5th overall?



> Bruno Walter 7'35"
> 
> Boulez Londen 7'44"
> 
> ...


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## flamencosketches (Jan 4, 2019)

Allegro Con Brio said:


> Here's a long list of timings from fastest to slowest, copied from this thread: Mahler would be fined for speeding In his own adagietto Looks like the slowest on record is practically a tie (5 second difference) between Tennstedt and Haitink, both of which clock in at slightly over 18 minutes!!!!! I personally cannot stand it when dragged out to such lengths, but to each their own of course. P.S. How did you like Barshai's 5th overall?


I really liked it! Thanks for reminding me to check it out. I'm probably going to buy it digitally since I can't find any CD. I need to hear it on its own though, I had just listened to the Boulez this morning so it was on my mind all the while.

YESSS! An 18 minute Adagietto from Haitink! :lol: I must hear that. I can't seem to find it, though. Must be a live recording.

Kind of amazing that those two Boulez recordings vary so much.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

there was a thread related to the topic a few months ago:
Mahler would be fined for speeding In his own adagietto


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## rice (Mar 23, 2017)

flamencosketches said:


> I really liked it! Thanks for reminding me to check it out. I'm probably going to buy it digitally since I can't find any CD. I need to hear it on its own though, I had just listened to the Boulez this morning so it was on my mind all the while.
> 
> YESSS! An 18 minute Adagietto from Haitink! :lol: I must hear that. I can't seem to find it, though. Must be a live recording.
> 
> Kind of amazing that those two Boulez recordings vary so much.







Could be this one.


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## NLAdriaan (Feb 6, 2019)

rice said:


> Could be this one.


Glad you posted this one. I was hooked to the TV (and simultaneous radio, for better sound) during this Christmas Mahler series in the eighties.

This adagietto times at 11:06 on the CD issue, so it wasn't Haitink's slowest. But please take your time to watch this, as it contains a memorable and unique idea by the director. I still remember it after all this time and it really adds to the atmosphere of the adagietto. The adagietto starts at 51:30 in this video and around 59:00 you can see it coming. But please watch the full movement, as the director really adds poetry to this interpretation all the way through. And Haitink must have loved it too, as he makes a special heavenly appearance:angel:


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## Knorf (Jan 16, 2020)

Very slow tempos in the Adagietto can work, provided the conductor maintains a strong sense of melodic direction, and more importantly, keeps the inner rhythmic motion in action. Bernstein, for one, was remarkably good at this. Consider, for example, his last recording of Mahler 3, and the daringly slow last movement. Despite how slow it is, it's amazing for how well it keeps moving and maintains a hold on the listener's attention in an almost mesmerizing way. However, for me, this idea was not successful in Bernstein's last recording of Tchaikovsky 6. That just drags into the mud, in my opinion.

But it does seem to me, even if it sometimes works out, that a very slow Adagietto is clearly contrary to Mahler's original intent. It's supposed to be a love song, not a funerary dirge.


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## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

For me, only Walter, Boulez and Gilbert Kaplan get it right. No more than 8 minutes! You might find this interesting:

https://www.nytimes.com/1992/07/19/arts/classical-music-a-dirge-no-it-s-a-love-song.html


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## flamencosketches (Jan 4, 2019)

Knorf said:


> Very slow tempos in the Adagietto can work, provided the conductor maintains a strong sense of melodic direction, and more importantly, keeps the inner rhythmic motion in action. Bernstein, for one, was remarkably good at this. Consider, for example, his last recording of Mahler 3, and the daringly slow last movement. Despite how slow it is, it's amazing for how well it keeps moving and maintains a hold on the listener's attention in an almost mesmerizing way. However, for me, this idea was not successful in Bernstein's last recording of Tchaikovsky 6. That just drags into the mud, in my opinion.
> 
> But it does seem to me, even if it sometimes works out, that a very slow Adagietto is clearly contrary to Mahler's original intent. It's supposed to be a love song, not a funerary dirge.


I don't think that a slow Adagietto is by nature a funeral dirge, nor do I think there's anything wrong with a slow love song. In my perspective, Bernstein's is the recording which comes closest to capturing the Romantic love aspect of it all, and it's definitely on the slower side.


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## Knorf (Jan 16, 2020)

Bernstein's concept was definitely funerary dirge. He played it just so for memorial services/funerals for Koussevitzky and J.F.K.


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## larold (Jul 20, 2017)

My favorite Mahler 5 was Levine leading the Philadelphia Orchestra. His 12:38 adagietto was often criticized but I found it no hindrance.


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## Marc (Jun 15, 2007)

mbhaub said:


> For me, only Walter, Boulez and Gilbert Kaplan get it right. No more than 8 minutes! You might find this interesting:
> 
> https://www.nytimes.com/1992/07/19/arts/classical-music-a-dirge-no-it-s-a-love-song.html


Willem Mengelberg was also known for his very swift Adagietto (7 minutes and 9 seconds).
In fact, to my knowledge, he is known as the fastest in the discography. Mind you, Mahler himself was very fond of Mengelberg's approach to his music, and it is believed by some that Mengelberg's metronome markings were written down after discussing them with Mahler.
Therefore I wonder what the sources of the above list are. What recording would that be… Mengelberg conducting an extremely slow Adagietto of 14'13"?

Indeed, Gilbert Kaplan recorded the Adagietto once, and he also took less than 8 minutes (7'56"):
https://www.discogs.com/Gustav-Mahl...om-Symphony-No-5-From-Mahler-/release/8191910

Personally, I don't like it very slow. I love Haitink's 5th with the Berliner (Philips), but his slow Adagietto (13'56") leaves me rather cold.



Allegro Con Brio said:


> […] I personally cannot stand it when dragged out to such lengths, but to each their own of course. P.S. How did you like Barshai's 5th overall?


To me, Barshai's very intense 5th, with those young musicians, works extremely well.


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## flamencosketches (Jan 4, 2019)

Knorf said:


> Bernstein's concept was definitely funerary dirge. He played it just so for memorial services/funerals for Koussevitzky and J.F.K.


Maybe so, but I don't hear his recordings of it that way.


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## Knorf (Jan 16, 2020)

flamencosketches said:


> Maybe so, but I don't hear his recordings of it that way.


Fair enough. I mean, I _do_ very much enjoy Bernstein's Vienna Mahler 5 myself.


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## Marc (Jun 15, 2007)

flamencosketches said:


> Maybe so, but I don't hear his recordings of it that way.


It's funny actually. Despite their different approach i.c. tempi and such, I find both Bernstein (Wiener Phil) and Barshai very convincing. Not only in the Adagietto, but during the entire work. Probably my favourite recordings of Mahler 5 (of the ones I know of course).


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

The issue to me is not the speed per se, but that the slower it gets, the more it damages the balance of the second part (3-5) of the symphony.


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## Knorf (Jan 16, 2020)

Becca said:


> The issue to me is not the speed per se, but that the slower it gets, the more it damages the balance of the second part (3-5) of the symphony.


Yes, I agree with this.


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## flamencosketches (Jan 4, 2019)

You all may be right. I need to spend more time with a recording with a shorter Adagietto. I just bought the Barshai and will try and listen to it again ASAP, see what I think about the balance.


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## MarkW (Feb 16, 2015)

The thing with super-slow adagiettos is that orchestras have a helluva time trying to play it. Word gets out and such conductors tend to be unwelcome.


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## flamencosketches (Jan 4, 2019)

MarkW said:


> The thing with super-slow adagiettos is that orchestras have a helluva time trying to play it. Word gets out and such conductors tend to be unwelcome.


:lol: I hadn't thought about it that way. That's a real problem, beyond any aesthetic considerations.


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## Knorf (Jan 16, 2020)

MarkW said:


> The thing with super-slow adagiettos is that orchestras have a helluva time trying to play it. Word gets out and such conductors tend to be unwelcome.


We orchestral musicians will put up with quite a lot, but there's a bloody limit, there is!


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