# Regards on Wagner



## Levanda (Feb 3, 2014)

Is Wagner representing elitism. For the moment I don't have much opinion on him, I love his music and operas maybe just little too much screaming and sorry to say I can't warm up with his music that much as with Tchaikovsky's music.
So why Wagner don't representing working class or I am missing something?

Levanda


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## SiegendesLicht (Mar 4, 2012)

He represents those that have a living and loving soul in them, that is all.


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## Aramis (Mar 1, 2009)

> I can't warm up with his music that much as with Tchaikovsky's music


Tchaikovsky criticised and couldn't warm up to Wagner's opera himself, although I don't think it had anything to do with soviet propaganda terms of elitism and working class.


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## Levanda (Feb 3, 2014)

I would wish to politicised on music, the only question why is not appeal for ordinary class is that mean to elitism, I remember I read somewhere Tolstoy went to see Wagners operas he gave harsh criticism on his music. As myself I would like to understand more about him because I am beginner. 
Thanks in advance 
Levanda


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## Levanda (Feb 3, 2014)

Pardon my English "I would wish to politicised on music", *I do not wish to politicised on music.*


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Aramis said:


> Tchaikovsky criticised and couldn't warm up to Wagner's opera himself, although I don't think it had anything to do with soviet propaganda terms of elitism and working class.


Tchaikovsky on Wagner: "[He has] extraordinary gifts", but is a "symphonist" lost on the opera stage where "the music loses all power of expression." "Maybe the Ring is a great composition, but I have never heard anything so boring and so drawn out as this."


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## Aramis (Mar 1, 2009)

KenOC said:


> Tchaikovsky on Wagner: "[He has] extraordinary gifts", but is a "symphonist" lost on the opera stage where "the music loses all power of expression." "Maybe the Ring is a great composition, but I have never heard anything so boring and so drawn out as this."


Or:

_What a Don Quixote this Wagner is! Why does he wear himself out in this way, chasing after something impossible, when right under his very nose he has a tremendous gift, from which, if he were to give himself up to it fully and submit to its natural thrust, he would be able to draw forth a whole ocean of musical beauty?! In my view Wagner is a symphonist by nature. This man is endowed with a talent of genius, but he is being ruined by his tendency; his inspiration is paralyzed by the theory which he devised, and which at all costs he is determined to put into practice_

I particularly agree with this opinion.

More of Tchaikovsky on Wagner here:

http://wiki.tchaikovsky-research.net/wiki/Richard_Wagner


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Tchaikovsky apparently is a lot smarter than I previously gave him credit for.


Last I looked, it's no crime to love Tchaikovsky's music and be lukewarm to Wagner's or vice versa.

Like what you like. Avoid what you don't. You cannot force yourself to like something you don't.


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

I'm working class and I love Wagner.
Yes, it takes a longer attention span, but the rewards are great.
There are no more beautiful melodies and passages in all opera.
And the orchestration is so amazing I always hear new things.
The sweep and scale are amazing.
Each act is like a symphonic movement.
And the beauty is radiant.
Love Wagner.

Also, I think there was jealousy involved with these other composers.
And there are some here that just don't like opera.


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## StlukesguildOhio (Dec 25, 2006)

Wagner was no more or a champion for worker's rights than was Tchaikovsky. The audience for both was rather limited to the wealthier classes. We live in a time when classical music, fine art, and literature are accessible to anyone willing to put forth the effort.


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## StlukesguildOhio (Dec 25, 2006)

What a Don Quixote this Wagner is! Why does he wear himself out in this way, chasing after something impossible, when right under his very nose he has a tremendous gift, from which, if he were to give himself up to it fully and submit to its natural thrust, he would be able to draw forth a whole ocean of musical beauty?! In my view Wagner is a symphonist by nature. This man is endowed with a talent of genius, but he is being ruined by his tendency; his inspiration is paralyzed by the theory which he devised, and which at all costs he is determined to put into practice

And perhaps Tchaikovsky should have listened to his own advice... in reverse... for certainly his operas are among his finest creations.


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

Levanda said:


> Pardon my English "I would wish to politicised on music", *I do not wish to politicised on music.*


The moment you isolate one class in relation to classical music or one composer as a topic, you have *politicized* classical music


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

PetrB said:


> The moment you isolate one class in relation to classical music or one composer as a topic, you have *politicized* classical music


Music has always been politicized. What we say here hardly matters. Our favorite composers have had their target markets, usually defined by economic class. This is not surprising nor, I think, news.


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

Yeah, but "a lot of that" is over. Working class folk who can and do manage to come up with $140 for a pop music concert could also manage to come up with $140 for a seat at the Opera, and some do.


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## sharik (Jan 23, 2013)

Levanda said:


> why Wagner don't representing working class or I am missing something?


he does, to some extent, in _Die Meistersinger Von Nurenberg_.


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## waldvogel (Jul 10, 2011)

Up until 1848 Wagner had the prestigious and relatively well-paying job of director of the Royal Saxon Opera in Dresden. He premiered The Flying Dutchman and Tannhauser there - kind of the perfect job for him. But Wagner, possibly influenced by the writings of Karl Marx, was deeply involved in the aborted 1848 revolution in Saxony, which temporarily set up a democratic government there until the Prussian army restored the king in 1849. At this point Wagner and his democratic allies were hunted down as traitors - some of them were executed, while Wagner managed to escape to Switzerland. He was exiled there for many years, and was only allowed to re-enter Bavaria (but not most of Germany, which was run by Prussia) due to the fact that king Ludwig II was crazy about his music. At some point in the 1860's Wagner was pardoned throughout the German Confederation.

Getting involved in a revolution to depose an autocratic monarch and set up a democratic government, at possible risk to your life and livelihood... if that doesn't count as "supporting the working class" I don't know what does!


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

Wagner: big, expansive, romantic, emotional, wandering. See also Bruckner.

Brahms: classical, concise, logical, his polar opposite. Why, then, don't I have more Wagner? It must be that screaming.


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## superhorn (Mar 23, 2010)

Here's some irony - Tchaikovsky was something of an anti-semite himself . But nobody rejects his
works because of this . Of course , he never published a pamphlet called "Judaism in music ", either .


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## FleshRobot (Jan 27, 2014)

superhorn said:


> Here's some irony - Tchaikovsky was something of an anti-semite himself .


What's your evidence for saying that?

"And it is against this graceful composer , who is always so appealing for audiences, that Wagner aims his poisoned arrows in his critical writings, reproaching him with particular doggedness for belonging to the Jewish race! Indeed, this highly gifted Jew should have felt so ashamed of himself for having, with such insidious malice, delighted mankind with his instrumental works instead of lulling it to sleep with German conscientiousness, as Wagner has managed to do with his long, difficult, loud and frequently unbearably boring operas!"

- Tchaikovsky, about Mendelssohn. Doesn't sound anti-semite to me.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Tchaikovsky defended Mendelssohn against the poisonous writings of Wagner and had close Jewish friends. On the other hand, he wrote in a letter regarding the railway station he passed on his way from Clarens to Kamenka in 1878: "A mass of dirty Yids with that poisonous atmosphere which accompanies them everywhere." (David Brown, part II of his biography, p. 272)

http://tinyurl.com/mltcwrt


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

Wagner is Tchaikovsky for adults.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

Levanda said:


> Is Wagner representing elitism. For the moment I don't have much opinion on him, I love his music and operas maybe just little too much screaming and sorry to say I can't warm up with his music that much as with Tchaikovsky's music.
> So why Wagner don't representing working class or I am missing something?
> 
> Levanda


Wagner didn't like the elites, and I think Waldvogel gave a very detailed answer with his post. It might be ironic how he ended up being funded by a monarch, but I guess so what? Hypocrisy and opportunism in the music world is not uncommon.

But what I'd add is that Wagner set up Bayreuth so that every member of the audience got the same view of the stage. Previously, in the design of the old court opera houses of the ancien regime, the monarch got the best view at the back (slap bang in the middle) of the horseshoe, everyone else got an inferior view. Who you where in the scheme of things in the neo-feudal class structure that still existed in Europe until the early 20th century - whether aristocracy or landed gentry or part of the rising business class - decided where you sat, and the type of view you got. Some people could only see the singer's legs and the orchestra in the pit! It is said that in Vienna, tickets to see opera and the philharmonic are still somewhat affected by this class structure today, the best tickets remain in the hands of the elites, whose 'bloodlines' go centuries back.

Experts on the matter, on opera or Wagner, can correct me if they think what I'm saying is suspect. But I read this in a book focusing on the history of Mitteleuropa.

BTW I am not a No. 1 Wagner fan, far from it, its just that he hated the elites, he absolutely loathed them. He was creating a temple of culture at Bayreuth, and with something as seemingly mundane as seating arrangements he wanted to do away with the old ways. It's got more to do with the Romans and Greeks, how they built ampitheatres in ancient times, less to do with centres of opera like Vienna and Munich in the 19th century (where Wagner had strong cliques against him, as far as I understand it).

Whether his music comes across to you as elitist is another issue. I find him long winded, basically beyond my powers of endurance. I acknowedge him as one of the great composers - easily among the greatest of his time - and also as one of the most influential. But Wagner's not my cup of tea and I wish he'd done more in the smaller forms (I like _Wesendonck Lieder _and _Siegfried Idyll _a lot, I wouldn't complain if we had more works from Herr Wagner like those!).


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Sid James said:


> Wagner didn't like the elites, and I think Waldvogel gave a very detailed answer with his post. It might be ironic how he ended up being funded by a monarch, but I guess so what? Hypocrisy and opportunism in the music world is not uncommon.
> 
> But what I'd add is that Wagner set up Bayreuth so that every member of the audience got the same view of the stage. Previously, in the design of the old court opera houses of the ancien regime, the monarch got the best view at the back (slap bang in the middle) of the horseshoe, everyone else got an inferior view. Who you where in the scheme of things in the neo-feudal class structure that still existed in Europe until the early 20th century - whether aristocracy or landed gentry or part of the rising business class - decided where you sat, and the type of view you got. Some people could only see the singer's legs and the orchestra in the pit! It is said that in Vienna, tickets to see opera and the philharmonic are still somewhat affected by this class structure today, the best tickets remain in the hands of the elites, whose 'bloodlines' go centuries back.
> 
> .


Wagner may have disliked the elites in theory but was quite prepared to have King Ludwig as his patron! His principles didn't actually go that far when someone showed him hard cash! In that he had something in common with Beethoven.
Yes, Wagner did envisage his music for ordinary people. Hence it is ironic that Bayreuth is uncommonly expensive - way put of the rang of most ordinary folk. And that a Wagner's disciples have tended to set themselves up as a sort of musical elite of 'high art'.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Couchie said:


> Wagner is Tchaikovsky for adults.


An elitist statement in itself!


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

DavidA said:


> Wagner may have disliked the elites in theory but was quite prepared to have King Ludwig as his patron! His principles didn't actually go that far *when someone showed him hard cash!* In that he had something in common with Beethoven.
> Yes, Wagner did envisage his music for ordinary people. *Hence it is ironic that Bayreuth is uncommonly expensive - *way put of the rang of most ordinary folk. And that a Wagner's disciples have tended to set themselves up as a sort of musical elite of 'high art'.


Of course you take money given by the rich. What does that prove? zilcho.
The tickets are high because of demand.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Itullian said:


> Of course you take money given by the rich. What does that prove? zilcho.
> The tickets are high because of demand.


I believe it was Knappersbusch who remarked to Wieland Wagner, as they opened the 1951 festival, "Would your grandfather have approved of this?" He was indicating the well heeled people (who could afford the tickets) attending the festival. Wagner would no doubt have disapproved in theory but would have been delighted at the readings on the cash registers!
I can remember myself trying to get tickets for the Flying Dutchman at Covent Garden as a student, but being absolutely priced out of the market. Opera is a rich man's sport!
Why it's now a good thing that cinemas are taking broadcasts from opera houses and screening them. I'm hoping to see Don Giovanni from ROH tonight if we're not snowed in!


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

DavidA said:


> I believe it was Knappersbusch who remarked to Wieland Wagner, as they opened the 1951 festival, "Would your grandfather have approved of this?" He was indicating the well heeled people (who could afford the tickets) attending the festival.* Wagner would no doubt have disapproved in theory *but would have been *delighted at the readings on the cash registers!*


You're correct, he would have disapproved.
Other composers don't like profits?


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## GioCar (Oct 30, 2013)

DavidA said:


> Wagner may have disliked the elites in theory but was quite prepared to have King Ludwig as his patron! His principles didn't actually go that far when someone showed him hard cash!
> /QUOTE]
> 
> Wagner was almost starving in Paris when he was young.
> ...


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## Chordalrock (Jan 21, 2014)

Aramis said:


> Or:
> 
> _What a Don Quixote this Wagner is! Why does he wear himself out in this way, chasing after something impossible, when right under his very nose he has a tremendous gift, from which, if he were to give himself up to it fully and submit to its natural thrust, he would be able to draw forth a whole ocean of musical beauty?! In my view Wagner is a symphonist by nature. This man is endowed with a talent of genius, but he is being ruined by his tendency; his inspiration is paralyzed by the theory which he devised, and which at all costs he is determined to put into practice_
> 
> ...


Wagner himself said he was unable to come up with interesting music if he tried to compose symphonies, and that he needed the stories, characters, and events of opera to flare his imagination. Composing this great music in some purer context was absolutely impossible for him, and I don't personally even see how you could create symphonies out of that material. But then I often feel Romantic symphonies would work better as operas.


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## Xaltotun (Sep 3, 2010)

Wagner is not only a working class hero, he's _the_ working class hero.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Yeah and I'm the Queen of Sheba.


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## SiegendesLicht (Mar 4, 2012)

Does it really make such a great difference, what he thought about the working class and the elites? I mean, we are not a bunch of commies who judge every person based on his "proletarian origins", are we? His _art_ is elite alright, but it is an elitism of the spirit, of deep thought and understanding of the human soul, and great talent. Now it is available pretty much to everyone, but the majority of people of any class, from the working to the elite, do not want it and do not care for it.

On the other hand, I may be mistaken, but it seems that the modern elites, whereas they used to be a major source of support for the arts in the past, are slowly losing that role too.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

GioCar said:


> DavidA said:
> 
> 
> > Wagner may have disliked the elites in theory but was quite prepared to have King Ludwig as his patron! His principles didn't actually go that far when someone showed him hard cash!
> ...


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Xaltotun said:


> Wagner is not only a working class hero, he's _the_ working class hero.


A working class hero with a fetish for silks!


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Itullian said:


> You're correct, he would have disapproved.
> Other composers don't like profits?


I don't think we can name too many who turned away the profits! They took the money with great regret, of course, that it was a slur on their art. But they did laugh their way to the bank!


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## GioCar (Oct 30, 2013)

DavidA said:


> I have no problem with him accepting money. But it doesn't give you much moral ground then to criticise elitism when you accept money from them!


Well, agreed, maybe not a Prince of Morals but a human being for sure. Don't we say 'Don't bite the hand that feeds you'?


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## GioCar (Oct 30, 2013)

Xaltotun said:


> Wagner is not only a working class hero, he's _the_ working class hero.


:lol:

That was another German guy. K.M. maybe?


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

DavidA said:


> Wagner may have disliked the elites in theory but was quite prepared to have King Ludwig as his patron! His principles didn't actually go that far when someone showed him hard cash! In that he had something in common with Beethoven.
> Yes, Wagner did envisage his music for ordinary people. Hence it is ironic that Bayreuth is uncommonly expensive - way put of the rang of most ordinary folk. And that a Wagner's disciples have tended to set themselves up as a sort of musical elite of 'high art'.


Yes, well I suppose making opera into a thing for 'the people' would have to wait until technology developed, such as the HD cinema screenings you referred to in your next post. Wagner was against the elites but yes, like Beethoven and Mozart whose operas also questioned and acted as critiques upon the political systems of their era (_Fidelio _and _Don Giovanni _in particular), this meant little to the average person in the street. Wagner's _Rienzi _is the closest in opera we have of some sort of political statement by him, in terms of this hero leading a struggle for the people and then paying the ultimate price for it. It has connotations with what was happening during those failed revolutions of the 19th century, as well of course the totalitarian regimes that came in the 20th century.

Even unification of Italy and Germany didn't really do much to change the existing power structures there. In Italy, yeah we had people whistling Verdi's tunes, but then don't forget how after unification there was a virtual civil war between the North and South of the country, the latter (a bit like the USA) had many people who saw unification as an agenda from the more industrialised North to dominate the largely agricultural South. In Germany unification didn't come all easy either, it was certainly not like some Hollywood epic, Bismarck the chancellor of 'Blood and Iron' waged three bloody wars to attain it.

A lot of what happened in classical music was a result of change on the streets, it didn't do much to spearhead it, it was basically a commentary on the whole thing as entertainment for the elites. So its a paradox, and Wagner is just one paradox in the paradoxical world of opera, and classical music in general.

I don't know what Wagner would have thought of what happened in the 20th century, the ancien regime he so despised - but used at the same time - being forcibly replaced by totalitarian regimes. These did indeed coopt his and other's music for purposes of national unification, but in reality its was for more sinister reasons as it turned out. I don't want to wade into the merry go round that we've had on this forum millions of times - about Wagner's anti-Semitism - but I'm just trying to put what I know about his politics into context.

But ultimately he is a composer of his time, an innovator. What I do admire is his audacity, his determination against many odds to succeed. One poster above mentioned his early life, which was far from easy, this is true. He was a visionary, I will give him at least that, even though I'm not that much enamoured of his music. Criticism applied about double standards can be applied to many, maybe even most composers, the big thing with him is that he is controversial for his politics. But nowadays I just focus on his music, if I am listening to it, I do the same as with any other composer. It must be said that Wagner is one composer that demands the listener's undivided attention.


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

Daniel Barenboim, "I hate Wagner. But I hate him on my knees."
I think I have that quote right.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Itullian said:


> Daniel Barenboim, "I hate Wagner. But I hate him on my knees."
> I think I have that quote right.


Typical Barenboim! Of course this is the view of many Wagner worshippers. But they need to get it into their heads that this might have been a musical genius but he was a man with more flaws than most - a man who was a pretty hateful individual. The same can be said of Beethoven and many others of the great composers. They may have been great in one area but they certainly left a lot to be desired in most other areas of their lives!


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

DavidA said:


> Typical Barenboim! Of course this is the view of many Wagner worshippers.* But they need to get it into their heads *that this might have been a musical genius but he was a man with more flaws than most - a man who was a pretty hateful individual. *The same can be said of Beethoven and many others of the great composers.* They may have been great in one area but they certainly left a lot to be desired in most other areas of their lives!


Worshippers?
I think we know that.

It's his music we love.
The same with Ludwig and the rest.


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## Levanda (Feb 3, 2014)

Well I gave myself more time on Wagner, I was watched opera Die Meistersinger, I did liked music and the story line ok,. From beginning it reminded me X Factor which I am not fan of that at all. At the end of performance it went little too shabby on national identity performance, I felt little strange about this one. For myself it would better listening his music than operas, to me his operas just too complicated, maybe even too distracted? Or I should give more time on classical music.
Having my views on Wagner, what enormous legacy he left for us, after his death his music and operas still so popular. I did not put his works down even opposite I want to hear more his music. Thank you.

Levanda


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Levanda said:


> Well I gave myself more time on Wagner, I was watched opera Die Meistersinger,
> Levanda


To watch Meistersinger you need to devote plenty of time! Far too long in spite of some glorious music. Wagner could have cut an hour off it without doing it too much harm. Verdi got it better with Falstaff. He shimmers and dances his way through a genius of a libretto which is, to me, far more exhilarating than Wagner's ponderous 'comedy'.


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

DavidA said:


> To watch Meistersinger you need to devote plenty of time! Far too long in spite of some glorious music. Wagner could have cut an hour off it without doing it too much harm. Verdi got it better with Falstaff. He shimmers and dances his way through a genius of a libretto which is, to me, far more exhilarating than Wagner's ponderous 'comedy'.


Don't touch a hair of that beautiful score.
Meistersinger is one of the great creations in all opera.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Let's see. Get rid of that damn overture. They play it at a lot of pop concerts anyway. Eliminate two of Sachs big monologues. Unnecessary verbiage. We know he's too old for the girl. Streamline the singing contest. Get rid of the hail Sachs chorus near the end. He feels bad enough, losing the girl. Hail Sach's ain't gonna cheer him up any.

So we could do this in maybe 2 hours, 15 minutes and everybody's happy! Especially me!

Hey Wagner!! Keep it pithy!!!!


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## GioCar (Oct 30, 2013)

^^^^^ Sacrilege!!


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

GioCar said:


> ^^^^^ Sacrilege!!


Bring on the Wagner police!!!! 

Tell my family what happened to me!!! :lol:


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## GioCar (Oct 30, 2013)

hpowders said:


> Bring on the Wagner police!!!!
> 
> I'll take Verdi every time!!


No problem for me... just don't touch Otello or Falstaff...


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## SiegendesLicht (Mar 4, 2012)

Of course I understand that opera appreciation is pretty much a matter of taste, but I am starting to think, whoever has a problem with Die Meistersinger and Hans Sachs, should examine himself for repressed xenophobic attitudes


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Itullian said:


> Don't touch a hair of that beautiful score.
> Meistersinger is one of the great creations in all opera.


Just that Falstaff, Figaro et al, are even better!


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

SiegendesLicht said:


> Of course I understand that opera appreciation is pretty much a matter of taste, but I am starting to think, whoever has a problem with Die Meistersinger and Hans Sachs, should examine himself for repressed xenophobic attitudes


Well, one can at least say that in Meistersinger the xenophobia is certainly not repressed!


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

hpowders said:


> Let's see. Get rid of that damn overture. They play it at a lot of pop concerts anyway. Eliminate two of Sachs big monologues. Unnecessary verbiage. We know he's too old for the girl. Streamline the singing contest. Get rid of the hail Sachs chorus near the end. He feels bad enough, losing the girl. Hail Sach's ain't gonna cheer him up any.
> 
> So we could do this in maybe 2 hours, 15 minutes and everybody's happy! Especially me!
> 
> Hey Wagner!! Keep it pithy!!!!


One other thing. Get rid of the overweight, middle-aged gentlemen who play Walther. All fine fellows I'm sure with great voices. But I keep thinking I've wandered onto Falstaff.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Interesting reading contemporary critical reaction to the Mastersinger premiere:
"yes Richard Wagner's is superior to Beethoven in so far as he is a poet; and yes he is superior to Schiller in as far as he is a musician."


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## Chi_townPhilly (Apr 21, 2007)

Itullian said:


> Don't touch a hair of that beautiful score.
> Meistersinger is one of the great creations in all opera.


Re: _Meistersinger_-


> ... there's not a single note or bar too many, and absolutely nothing at all you might wish to be different. That's the criterion of a great masterpiece. I think I love _'Die Meistersinger'_ more than anything else which Wagner wrote. It's such a positive, life-giving piece. *Georg Solti*


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

DavidA said:


> Just that Falstaff, Figaro et al, are even better!


Absolutely correct. Figaro is better. So is Don Giovanni, Cosi Fan Tutte, The Magic Flute, etc;

But I realize there are folks who prefer Wagner.

Room enough in this world for Mozart lovers and Wagner lovers.


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

Fine, you guys go see Cosi,
I'm going to Meistersinger.

Wagner influenced Verdi, not the other way around.


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## Yardrax (Apr 29, 2013)

hpowders said:


> Room enough in this world for Mozart lovers and Wagner lovers.


What about those, admittedly peculiar, individuals among us who love both?


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

Chi_townPhilly said:


> Re: _Meistersinger_-


Think Solti knows something these Wagner critics here don't?


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Yardrax said:


> What about those, admittedly peculiar, individuals among us who love both?


You get priority seating on the plane and 2 bags of peanuts.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Itullian said:


> Think Solti knows something these Wagner critics here don't?


As Solti made his reputation and his fortune conducting Wagner, why should he say anything else.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Itullian said:


> Fine, you guys go see Cosi,
> I'm going to Meistersinger.
> 
> Wagner influenced Verdi, not the other way around.


Granted, but Verdi did it better!


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Yardrax said:


> What about those, admittedly peculiar, individuals among us who love both?


No reason! Thankfully it is not an either / or situation. I have all the works mentioned on my shelves.


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## GioCar (Oct 30, 2013)

DavidA said:


> No reason! Thankfully it is not an either / or situation. I have all the works mentioned on my shelves.


Whew! I was fearing a poll Wagner vs Mozart...


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

77% to 23%. Just saved us all some time.


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

Can't say I would have any time for the opera world if it didn't produce Wagner.


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## Guest (Feb 14, 2014)

I am puzzled why a composer's political credentials or personal weaknesses are of such a big interest to some people. 

I suppose if some famous composer happened to have a predilection for wife-beating, the occasional murder, doing bank jobs, and possibly engaging frequently in drunk & disorderly behaviour, this kind of behaviour might affect some peoples' consciences, but it stretches the point to worry over much over their purely socialist credentials as a qualifier for liking or not their musical achievements.

Outside the confines of some music Boards, most people I come into contact with really couldn't care less about such matters.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Partita said:


> I am puzzled why a composer's political credentials or personal weaknesses are of such a big interest to some people.
> 
> I suppose if some famous composer happened to have a predilection for wife-beating, the occasional murder, doing bank jobs, and possibly engaging frequently in drunk & disorderly behaviour, this kind of behaviour might affect some peoples' consciences, but it stretches the point to worry over much over their purely socialist credentials as a qualifier for liking or not their musical achievements.
> 
> Outside the confines of some music Boards, most people I come into contact with really couldn't care less about such matters.


People discuss it further because Wagner put himself out there by writing down his philosophies, some of which are perfectly hateful to thinking people. He was opinionated so people have their opinions of him. And whereas people have romanced over the gross character weaknesses of some composers (eg Beethoven), Wagner's association (rightly or wrongly) with certain repugnant philosophies of the twentieth century makes people view him in a far more critical light. Perhaps if dear old Richard hadn't have sounded off so much he might have been a romantic hero in the mould of a Beethoven.


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## Guest (Feb 14, 2014)

DavidA said:


> People discuss it further because Wagner put himself out there by writing down his philosophies, some of which are perfectly hateful to thinking people. He was opinionated so people have their opinions of him. And whereas people have romanced over the gross character weaknesses of some composers (eg Beethoven), Wagner's association (rightly or wrongly) with certain repugnant philosophies of the twentieth century makes people view him in a far more critical light. Perhaps if dear old Richard hadn't have sounded off so much he might have been a romantic hero in the mould of a Beethoven.


But this thread is supposed to be about Wagner's socialist credentials in terms of his interest in supporting the working classes, not his other views which you connect with "certain repugnant philosophies of the twentieth century". I only referred to Wagner's "socialist credentials". I cannot see why you have brought this other apparently irrelevant issue into this discussion.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Yet Daniel Barenboim is able to put that hateful rhetoric aside and champions The Ring.


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## SiegendesLicht (Mar 4, 2012)

Partita said:


> I am puzzled why a composer's political credentials or personal weaknesses are of such a big interest to some people.


Some people enjoy a feeling of imaginary moral superiority.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Some folks just don't like long operas with complicated ridiculous plots.
Not a crime.


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

DavidA said:


> Granted, but Verdi did it better!


Says you.
I don't compare master works.


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

hpowders said:


> Some folks just don't like long operas with complicated ridiculous plots.
> Not a crime.


And some just don't like opera.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

DavidA said:


> Granted, but Verdi did it better!


Verdi abided by my cardinal rule, be it posting or musical composition:

Keep it pithy!


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

And of course that rules.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Partita said:


> But this thread is supposed to be about Wagner's socialist credentials in terms of his interest in supporting the working classes, .


Wagner's socialist values included taking the filthy lucre of King Ludwig. A bit like another great 'instinctive socialist' John Lennon who said that money should be abolished but who had an extraordinary capacity for collecting it.


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## Guest (Feb 15, 2014)

DavidA said:


> Wagner's socialist values included taking the filthy lucre of King Ludwig. A bit like another great 'instinctive socialist' John Lennon who said that money should be abolished but who had an extraordinary capacity for collecting it.


Some people clearly get worked up about such issues, but I suspect the majority don't. I'm one of the latter. As far as I am concerned, discussions of this nature are inappropriate on this part of the Board. All that happens is one group of people venting their spleen against another, with hardly any useful musical content at all. I'd clear all this kind stuff off this part of the Board. It would be no worse off for it, and probably a lot better.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Some folks can separate the man from the music. Others can't.
There are still folks who refuse to drive German cars.
That's the way it is.
Make up your own mind.


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