# What's music's role in this global economic downturn?



## UniverseInfinite (May 16, 2009)

Dear members, first of all, do you feel an economic downturn around you?

Secondly, if you say yes, then how do you feel about it?

Thirdly, what role could music play in good time and bad time of your life time?


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## vavaving (Apr 20, 2009)

There are some ongoing recordings of complete works which may not be realized if sales are not expected to sustain them. Therefore, music's role is that of scarce availability. However, this is not a new phenomenon is it?


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## Tapkaara (Apr 18, 2006)

Sure, one can feel the economic downturn here in San Diego. But we are hardly unique down here, are we? I'm sure every single person in this forum has either seen it in their community or perhaps some of us have been touched personally by it.

What is music's role? It's a spirit lifter, to be sure! I need music all the time anyway, but in dark times, I guess I need it even more.


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## Weston (Jul 11, 2008)

The darkest times in the US economy, namely The Depression of the 1930's, saw a boom in the movie industry. People needed to escape their grim realty. 

Maybe something like this will happen with entertainment these days as well, though a part of me doubts it will impact classical music as much as other forms of entertainment.


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## Mirror Image (Apr 20, 2009)

In Georgia, the economy is in really bad shape. I don't even think we've seen the "bottom" of all this yet. All we can do is just go day-by-day and hope things get better. That's all we can do.

What is music's role in the economic downturn? The same as was when things were going good: it's an escape for people. When you put on say Bartok or Dvorak the last thing on most people's mind is their financial situations at this point. It takes their minds off of everything and allows people to enjoy themselves for a change. There will always be people who listen for enjoyment as we all should, but there are people, like us, who listen very carefully and it becomes much more than a mere escape. It becomes apart of us, but what's important is it takes people away from their lives and it gets people to not think about the economy so much.


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## Conservationist (Apr 5, 2007)

Weston said:


> Maybe something like this will happen with entertainment these days as well, though a part of me doubts it will impact classical music as much as other forms of entertainment.


Soap operas are booming.

I think art is escapism that through metaphor shows us what we want out of life.

It is basically a prober, provoker and askers of values-related questions.

_Ancient Airs and Dances_ asks me: ancient Roman virtue, or maybe another plastic cheeseburger with a side order of World of Warcraft, if we can invade Venezuela and take over their web servers?


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## vavaving (Apr 20, 2009)

Escapism is a trap. Music is more of an enhancement.


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## starry (Jun 2, 2009)

vavaving said:


> There are some ongoing recordings of complete works which may not be realized if sales are not expected to sustain them. Therefore, music's role is that of scarce availability. However, this is not a new phenomenon is it?


Scarce availability? More music is now available than has ever been available in the whole history of mankind. There's more music to hear than anyone could possibly listen to even through several lifetimes probably.

And anyway music and art in general will surely exist whatever economic system is used and whatever the state of that system. Only the form in which it takes could change. I doubt the main function of art changes according to economics, it is still there to entertain, stimulate, challenge and express what people think and feel. It helps makes order and sense of the world around them and their place in it.


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## vavaving (Apr 20, 2009)

starry said:


> Scarce availability? More music is now available than has ever been available in the whole history of mankind. There's more music to hear than anyone could possibly listen to even through several lifetimes probably.


That may be the big picture from space, but I have noticed a real slow down in the production of sets and series. Anyway, classical recordings go out of print all the time, which qualifies as scarce availability. There may be a lot of recorded media out there but how much of it is original and available? Not that much of what I seek.


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## Mirror Image (Apr 20, 2009)

vavaving said:


> That may be the big picture from space, but I have noticed a real slow down in the production of sets and series. Anyway, classical recordings go out of print all the time, which qualifies as scarce availability. There may be a lot of recorded media out there but how much of it is original and available? Not that much of what I seek.


You think classical goes out-of-print quickly try looking for some hard to find jazz recordings.


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## Conservationist (Apr 5, 2007)

Mirror Image said:


> You think classical goes out-of-print quickly try looking for some hard to find jazz recordings.


Jazz luckily has some awesome bootleg repeater labels in, say, Italy.


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## Mirror Image (Apr 20, 2009)

Conservationist said:


> Jazz luckily has some awesome bootleg repeater labels in, say, Italy.


I'm sure they do. The Europeans love jazz music.


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## Mongoose (Jun 4, 2009)

The downturn in classical music began long before the current crisis. When I started buying classical records,some 40 plus years ago,the music review magazines were full of pictures showing singers and orchestras recording some great opera or choral work,and later,sitting in the control room,towels around their necks,in rapt attention. Much money was spent on such productions,and the reccrd companies spent hours and hours trying to get everything just so to pander to the artistes whims. Read John Culshaw 'Ring Resounding' or 'Putting the Record Straight' to see what I mean.
These days such things no longer exist,and the magic has gone out of producing. Live recordings,compiled from different performances are now the norm,but are'nt the audiences silent! Are they told to be quiet,or do the engineers use highly directional microphones?
As regards the effect which good music can have in times of hardship and stress. I get much relief from great music,and its healing qualities have helped me during some of the worst times of my life. But too much is as much as too little,and our modern world is crammed full of noise,some of which is termed 'music'. During the 2nd world war,many folks who had no exposure to serious music were introduced to it by conductors such as Sargent,Weldon,Wood,etc,and discovered its healing powers. After the war,when the lp record was released,these same people became users,and many embraced the new hi-fi ranges of equipment. Hence the boom in matters audio,which is now sadly a memory as more people use the lo-fi I-Pod and other portable media. I wander from the original point.
Good music,be it classical,jazz,rock,MOR,can touch the soul and uplift and comfort,and this will always be the case no matter what.
Mongoose.


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## starry (Jun 2, 2009)

Conservationist said:


> Jazz luckily has some awesome bootleg repeater labels in, say, Italy.


Exactly, people will find ways to make things available (whatever someone's attempt to control the distribution of something). You can't unrecord a recording or unmake a record. There's alot of popular music totally unavailable on cd which I've been able to hear on the internet for example. Of course classical music does have a smaller audience but still some people do digitize come of their collection, they might make recordings of rare pieces off the radio etc. It's not just companies making things available now in this democratized and globalized world of the internet



Mongoose said:


> The downturn in classical music began long before the current crisis.
> 
> As regards the effect which good music can have in times of hardship and stress. I get much relief from great music,and its healing qualities have helped me during some of the worst times of my life.


Of course music and art in general can help an individual's circumstances, connect them to their inner selves and humanity in times in which they feel uninvolved or apart (this may not be to do with economics but all kinds of other factors as well).


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## Conservationist (Apr 5, 2007)

starry said:


> Exactly, people will find ways to make things available (whatever someone's attempt to control the distribution of something). You can't unrecord a recording or unmake a record. There's alot of popular music totally unavailable on cd which I've been able to hear on the internet for example.


And this is also the core of the MP3 issue: if it can be pressed and played, it's going to be copied. Personally, I think allegiance to art is more important than legal rights, in many cases. We owe it to the artist to get the music out. If we do that successfully, they will be able to capitalize on it more later -- as will the original label, if they think for a moment.



> Of course classical music does have a smaller audience but still some people do digitize come of their collection, they might make recordings of rare pieces off the radio etc. It's not just companies making things available now in this democratized and globalized world of the internet


I wonder if classical music really does have a smaller audience. I think it's more a matter of fewer CDs sold because fewer classical works exist, and those that the normal person will enjoy are relatively few, but it seems to me they sell quite well. It may not compete with rock, pop and hip-hop in raw sales but in number of people it may well do so.



> Of course music and art in general can help an individual's circumstances, connect them to their inner selves and humanity in times in which they feel uninvolved or apart (this may not be to do with economics but all kinds of other factors as well).


Music can bring us to realize what we actually want. It can make us contemplate, relish an idea or discard another, or just want more adventure. All are good things.


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## starry (Jun 2, 2009)

Conservationist said:


> I wonder if classical music really does have a smaller audience. I think it's more a matter of fewer CDs sold because fewer classical works exist, and those that the normal person will enjoy are relatively few, but it seems to me they sell quite well. It may not compete with rock, pop and hip-hop in raw sales but in number of people it may well do so.


By smaller audience I meant I suppose that as the twentieth century went on more and more music was produced in all kinds of different styles, the competition increased. Classical music seemed to get squeezed out of the media eye. Obviously as far as popular melodies go pop music has become dominant, new famous melodies don't come from classical music. And even with more experimental music various new styles/sounds have been created so that classical music might not even seem at the forefront of the avant-garde either. Instead it ends up being seen as what I'll call 'museum music', music in a style from another time preserved in the present. That means it ends up being for a specialist audience, rather than for those looking at the present mainstream or where music might be going in the future.

Ironically with the growth of the recording industry and the spread of the internet classical music is probably more available to more people than ever before on a global scale, but this is largely for nothing because of the other factors. So what will classical music's role be in the future? Has it just been displaced by music with different instruments and styles? Will it morph into or mix with some other musical styles so it is more relevant to more people or will another classical advanced music almost seem to replace it? Music just like other areas always develops, not just according to fashion but according to the new technology available and the desire to express a different age in a new appropriate way. It could be quite a few years before the dust settles on the musical chaos, this seems like a transitional period. Hopefully it will be in my lifetime.


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## Edward Elgar (Mar 22, 2006)

If you look at trends in history, during recession, contemporary composers make their music sound more popular so as to make a living through the hard times. A lot of popular music came out of the 1929 Wall St Crash so composers could make ends meet. The resession today isn't nearly as bad so composers may continue their endevour of experimentalism, but a change in musical style caused by the economic climate would undoubtably be exiting. (Some would argue welcome!)


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## Mirror Image (Apr 20, 2009)

Edward Elgar said:


> The resession today isn't nearly as bad.


The recession today isn't nearly as bad? Are you kidding me? The United States is in terrible shape probably the worst it's been since the Great Depression. The U. S. market hasn't even seen the bottom of this economic meltdown yet nor has your country or the rest of the world.

It may not be as bad in large U. S. cities like New York City, Chicago, Los Angeles, etc., but in the rural parts of the country this recession has hit them hard. I have especially seen this in the small town I live in.

I do think, however, that the U. S. retail market will crumble. What you will see hopefully is the emergence of a lot more "Mom and Pop" stores come back. The greedy corporations have had their day for too long now.


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## emiellucifuge (May 26, 2009)

Im afraid in most of europe I have not seen any visible effects, only in Spain the construction market has gone very bad, there are many building projects left unfinished and standing abandoned.


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## bdelykleon (May 21, 2009)

emiellucifuge said:


> Im afraid in most of europe I have not seen any visible effects, only in Spain the construction market has gone very bad, there are many building projects left unfinished and standing abandoned.


Neither down here in South America, actually there's much talk about global recession, but comparing to what were our economies, 10, 20 years ago, it is something like heaven these days. When I was a kid, Brazil had a 100% inflation a *month*, controlled prices, imports and credit, and consequently shortages of almost every basic need. What looks like a major American and English crisis is a fairly common and everyday issue to most third world countries...


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## UniverseInfinite (May 16, 2009)

emiellucifuge said:


> Im afraid in most of europe I have not seen any visible effects


emiellucifuge meant Spain specifically, right? 
Wow, UniverseInfinite is kind of surprised that there hasn't been "any visible effects" in Europe -- the whole "geographical and arbitrary Europe"!

If there is really no "visible effects" yet, then this surely means deeper and deeper depression is going to come... Folks, tighten up your seatbelt for an amazing ride...



bdelykleon said:


> Neither down here in South America


Hoho, "neither down there in South America", wow... Same thing, hahaha, folks, tighten up your seatbelt for a thrill ride...


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## Zuo17 (Jul 8, 2009)

I think that there are also important areas that are suffering too. Look at the local symphony orchestra: _People hardly attend concerts anymore._ If you look into the generation of today, we're so tech-savvy. It's going to be recordings Vs. live performances. Nowadays, it's so easy to download(illegally) music off the internet, rather than buying a CD. I'd think Orchestras are suffering right now due to reduced pay for its musicians or even laying off members. I remember here recently of how bad the Honolulu symphony has been doing financially....but it's slowly getting better.
Another area is the fine arts department in schools(K-12). _Think about it._ Leaving a legacy is important, and it is so important that the next generation gets exposed to music and love it. I continually hear of _"school budgets that got cut"_, and fine arts is a prime target to get cut off of a school's agenda. _Mr. Holland's Opus_ is a movie I suggest you should watch, as it provides a clear picture of the agenda of fine arts in school and what direction music could take.

Until again,
Zach


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## Mirror Image (Apr 20, 2009)

Zuo17 said:


> I think that there are also important areas that are suffering too. Look at the local symphony orchestra: _People hardly attend concerts anymore._ If you look into the generation of today, we're so tech-savvy. It's going to be recordings Vs. live performances. Nowadays, it's so easy to download(illegally) music off the internet, rather than buying a CD. I'd think Orchestras are suffering right now due to reduced pay for its musicians or even laying off members. I remember here recently of how bad the Honolulu symphony has been doing financially....but it's slowly getting better.
> Another area is the fine arts department in schools(K-12). _Think about it._ Leaving a legacy is important, and it is so important that the next generation gets exposed to music and love it. I continually hear of _"school budgets that got cut"_, and fine arts is a prime target to get cut off of a school's agenda. _Mr. Holland's Opus_ is a movie I suggest you should watch, as it provides a clear picture of the agenda of fine arts in school and what direction music could take.
> 
> Until again,
> Zach


I don't go to live concerts, because the cost to see the Atlanta Symphony Orchestra play is really ridiculous. Plus, they never play anything that I can't pull out of my CD collection and hear anytime I want. If they play something unusual that's perhaps out of the concert repertoire like Bax or Langgaard, then I'm all for that, I would definitely love to see that.


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## Conservationist (Apr 5, 2007)

starry said:


> By smaller audience I meant I suppose that as the twentieth century went on more and more music was produced in all kinds of different styles, the competition increased. Classical music seemed to get squeezed out of the media eye.


That's very true. But lots of people seem to still be enjoying it, and unlike pop music listeners, the majority of them listen their whole lives. Your average pop music listener stops being a music consumer at age 28 or so.

I think MP3 piracy is great because it destroys pop music. Those who are going to listen to transient music are going to download it for the two weeks it's "new" and then move on. The result is that while pop music suffers, music with a longer-term fanbase thrives.

It's musical natural selection.


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## Conservationist (Apr 5, 2007)

UniverseInfinite said:


> UniverseInfinite is kind of surprised that there hasn't been "any visible effects" in Europe -- the whole "geographical and arbitrary Europe"!


I don't think Europe is "arbitrary."


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