# Making Sense of Mahler's 6th



## ViatorDei

I've long loved Mahler's 6th. Recently, however, I've been pondering what significance Mahler might have had for it. I suppose I particularly would like to know

1) how programmatic the symphony is

and 2) what is the overall significance of the work?

Re: 1 - I just listened twice to Mitropoulos' astounding NYP 1955 performance of the fourth movement. 




I know this is program music because of the whole "hammer blows of fate" discussion... but is there a section by section story that is being told by the music? Is it is open for interpretation or has Mahler indicated somewhere a set program of which I am not aware?

I took the liberty to take notes on what I felt the music was conveying... (times are approximate and for the Mitropoulos recording which are kind of useless for the youtube video since they aren't separated by track)

M6.4 - Entering the nightmarish underworld…hell… dark, infernal land
-church bells-heroic theme
-shudders… mocking the heroic theme… darker…
-"determination theme". Grim and set determination to overcome. Solemn determination. Rising like a star…
-Bleak shattering despair…
-Rising determination… set to the task.
-The hero's determination reasserts itself, despite the formidable foe
-Despair reasserts itself with more vigor
-The Struggle begins… with a danse macabre-mocking, sarcastic…
-Hero begins the martial struggle.
-back and forth they go…
7:55: Heroic respite… reinforcement. Re-attack with more vigor
Enters the foggy darkness… descending lower. Past the guards. Entering the heart of enemy territory.
9:53 - Spots his terrible destination
Church bell… recalls his determination, purpose.
All the romantic heroism his pure heart has… so earnest and valiant. Noble and pure. Goes forth, so fair.
-Charges
12:30 First hammer blow… wounds the hero
12:55-despite the wound rallies again… rises. Light.
13:40-Struggle again…stakes higher. More forceful engagement.
14:15-More ghastly danse macabre. Heroic battling. Martial, 'agonic' confrontation.
16:05-Last respite. Rallying force… determination.. to give it his all… turn the tide.
16:55-Another dizzying wound… still lives, but dazed. But keenly aware of the strength of his foe.
17:54-Darkness and despair surround… The seemingly unstoppable power of the dark enemy.
Hell's iron dominion…
19:07-Church bells…as in a dream… his purpose and dream. 
19:42- Remembers his mission. Realizes almost certain defeat. Yet does not cower. A certain desperation in his resolve now. Determination to fight to the bitter end whatever the outcome. 
21:30-Ardently valiant. 
21:58-The foe arises and the struggle ensues… The wounded hero fights on with all he has.
23:42-The last charge… realizes the enemy's unrelenting strength… 
24:30-Makes his last testament of resolve. Love. Sacrifice. Knows he goes to certain death. 
25:20-Forsakes all fear of death.
25:36-Rises to meet his end
25:55-IS OVERWHELMED BY THE ENEMY AND TAKEN
26:30-Funeral… threnody… defeat…the underworld has swallowed the hero. A dirge. 
Stupor… silence…
28:13: Riveting, terrible, tragic defeat. Hellish cry of finality.

Anyways, my point is about the program.

Regarding 2) Just how tragic is the "Tragic" symphony? It ends on a pretty darn bleak note. Did Mahler really intend to say that evil and darkness have the final victory?

I've been thinking about it and find the fact that he removed the third hammer blow very significant. (I find the whole "superstition" theory about Mahler trying to avoid a third tragedy in his own life a bit sensationalist and unconvincing). Correct me if I'm wrong, but could Mahler perhaps continue the story of the 6th with the 7th? He did write the 2nd and 4th movements of the 7th at the same time as the 6th. I wonder if the 7th is something like the hero's journey through the underworld after his fall at the end of the 6th. It is a journey through the night to the dawn of the 5th movement.

Anyways, all input is very welcome. I would love to be enlightened about this great symphony.


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## Becca

http://www.talkclassical.com/blogs/mahlerian/1327-understanding-mahlers-sixth-symphony.html


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## ViatorDei

Sheesh... I was searching all the threads for about a half an hour today just so this wouldn't happen. Didn't occur to me to check the blogs. Thanks. =)


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## ViatorDei

Well, I read Mahlerian's blog posts. He mentions that Mahler did not leave an explicit program, but his posts don't really address the second question. They are more technical than philosophical in their analysis.


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## violadude

ViatorDei said:


> Regarding 2) Just how tragic is the "Tragic" symphony? It ends on a pretty darn bleak note. Did Mahler really intend to say that evil and darkness have the final victory?
> 
> Anyways, all input is very welcome. I would love to be enlightened about this great symphony.


In this case, the term "tragic" is used in the classical Greek sense, as in a hero whose inevitable fate is one of downfall. It's not just a description for something bad that happened as we sometimes use it today.


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## Woodduck

violadude said:


> In this case, the term "tragic" is used in the classical Greek sense, as in a hero whose inevitable fate is one of downfall. It's not just a description for something bad that happened as we sometimes use it today.


"Tragedy" is one of those words that's used casually and liberally while its full original sense is forgotten. Thanks for pointing that out.

It isn't as if Mahler's hammer blows happened when he was out walking past a construction site and some builders accidentally dropped their tools on his head. That's what the 5 o'clock news would call a "tragic incident."


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## helenora

Woodduck said:


> "Tragedy" is one of those words that's used casually and liberally while its full original sense is forgotten. Thanks for pointing that out.
> 
> It isn't as if Mahler's hammer blows happened when he was out walking past a construction site and some builders accidentally dropped their tools on his head. That's what the 5 o'clock news would call a "tragic incident."


this reminded me of "Educating Rita" movie, the same topic was discussed


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## ViatorDei

Regarding tragedy, I certainly agree about taking the title "Tragic" in its classical Greek sense. Even so, I wonder what Mahler means with the symphony. Is he saying that no matter how brave, valiant, innocent, virtuous, etc. the hero is, ultimately fate is inexorable and will overtake him? Is Mahler somehow disillusioned with the Romantic ideal here? Or is this precisely the Romantic pathos for a tragedy like this one? One fact has always stuck out at me: that Mahler after playing through the piece on the piano for Alma was trembling and in tears. And even conducted the premier badly because of how deeply disturbing he found the music he wrote. 

He also said that the work contains riddles that will only be solved by an audience that has digested his first five symphonies... what on earth does that mean too?


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## EdwardBast

Before settling on a programmatic interpretation it might be appropriate to consider Mahler's thoughts on program music. According to Timothy David Freeze, who wrote a dissertation on the Third Symphony: "[Mahler] considered the whole enterprise of writing music to a program the biggest aberration musically and artistically:[quoting Mahler] 'One who does that is no artist! … [It is a] superficial, erroneous undertaking in which the composer chooses a limited, clearly defined sequence and follows it programmatically, step-for-step'." He attributed this way of working to Strauss, and in his correspondence with Arthur Seidl he wrote: "You are right, that my music arrives at a program as the final, ideal clarification, whereas for Strauss the program is an assigned task." Freeze concludes that Mahler's programs "were hapless attempts to capture in words meanings that were essentially musical."

Mahler's programmatic thoughts seem to have been provisional in at least two senses. One is as an aid to the audience. In 1902, after he had discarded the movement titles for the Third Symphony, Mahler wrote: "At the time, those titles were my attempt to give non-musicians a handle and signpost for the intellectual and, more importantly, the emotional content of the individual movements and their relationship to one another and to the work as a whole." The other provisional sense is that Mahler sometimes seemed to use these programmatic conceptions as ways of clarifying his musical structures to himself as he was refining and perfecting them.

I too believe the Sixth has great human meaning and significance, but I don't think trying to derive a literalistic program is a fruitful path. Arguably, the strokes of Fate return because in a work so thematically unified as the Sixth, that idea is so prominent and distinctive that a true sense of closure required its dramatic return.

As a side note: It is clear Mahler's final thought was that the scherzo should be the third movement, not the second. Mahlerian favors the other arrangement for reasons of his own but I think it clearly works better with it third.


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## Guest

EdwardBast said:


> It is clear Mahler's final thought was that the scherzo should be the third movement, not the second. Mahlerian favors the other arrangement for reasons of his own but I think it clearly works better with it third.


So do I. As for the problem of listening as if it's a programmed work, the acceleration, blow and rebuilding is certainly very distinctive and if I'm in the wrong mood, strikes me as corny. The 7th symphony seems to return to some of these ideas, so I've temporarily abandoned listening to it (Rattle/BPO Proms live) and returned to the 3rd (Haitink/LSO Proms live) which seems less laboured (despite its length).

The andante, however, is gorgeous, and needs no story for it to be so.


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## Triplets

I personally agree that Scherzo/Andante is the preferred order, but I would dispute that Mahler's preferences were 'clear' here; if they were unambiguous there would not be present day Debate.
As to the ultimate 'meaning' of the work I should away from claiming there is a literal one. I do think that one should also look beyond the personal context and consider that the Political context as well. The forces that resulted in World War I were in play then, and the Viennese in particular knew that their world was due to change in a not to be desired manner. Much of the literature and journalism of the time is filled with this general sense of dread. I have always heard the opening of I as the March of an Army.
I suspect both the World situation and his personal life both influenced the composer.


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