# Share Classical Music Opinions that Are Not Generalizations



## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

I am certainly victim to this too, but trying to make generalizations when it comes to Art is a bit silly. We should focus our discussions on detailed analysis of specific works by specific composers rather than try to reach a conclusion on who IS the best composer, or like my recent thread in the way it has gone, comparing Mozart and Haydn in trying to decide who WAS wittier and more clever.

This is what I was trying to say with that thread, and will be the first opinion to be discussed here, based on what I've heard from Mozart so far (several works), I find him to be irresistibly clever in his knack for melody and when using the word wit, I meant to acknowledge his incredibly sophisticated musical mind. I had no intention of comparing him to make the thread a competition between Haydn and Mozart.

Discuss intelligently, I must learn too!

:tiphat:


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

I felt this concept was important enough to warrant its own thread.


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## BrahmsWasAGreatMelodist (Jan 13, 2019)

People on this forum have a tendency to want to compare and rank music, or at least to categorize certain composers/pieces into archetypal tropes, and doing so requires using generalizations and gnomic abstractions. (Some) people's defensiveness about their own taste certainly doesn't help, either. It's funny how whenever you (earnestly) ask people for specifics (e.g. on their negative opinions about a famous composer or piece of music), they'll just deflect the question rather than providing any reasoning to their subjective claims. That being said, some models can be useful even if all are wrong.


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

BrahmsWasAGreatMelodist said:


> People on this forum have a tendency to want to compare and rank music, or at least to categorize certain composers/pieces into archetypal tropes, and doing so requires using generalizations and gnomic abstractions. (Some) people's defensiveness about their own taste certainly doesn't help, either. It's funny how whenever you (earnestly) ask people for specifics (e.g. on their negative opinions about a famous composer or piece of music), they'll just deflect the question rather than providing any reasoning to their subjective claims. That being said, some models can be useful even if all are wrong.


The way we use language today is such a barrier to articulating ideas. People need to dig deeper! Is it even necessary to categorize in Music?


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## Haydn70 (Jan 8, 2017)

Captainnumber36 said:


> I am certainly victim to this too, but* trying to make generalizations when it comes to Art is a bit silly.* We should focus our discussions on detailed analysis of specific works by specific composers rather than try to reach a conclusion on who IS the best composer, or like my recent thread in the way it has gone, comparing Mozart and Haydn in trying to decide who WAS wittier and more clever.
> 
> This is what I was trying to say with that thread, and will be the first opinion to be discussed here, based on what I've heard from Mozart so far (several works), I find him to be irresistibly clever in his knack for melody and when using the word wit, I meant to acknowledge his incredibly sophisticated musical mind. I had no intention of comparing him to make the thread a competition between Haydn and Mozart.
> 
> ...


Can you please explain why?


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

ArsMusica said:


> Can you please explain why?


It attempts to generate concepts which try to explain too much and we lose a lot of valuable meaning in that process. For example, saying Bach, Mozart & Beethoven are the top three composers is silly to me b/c this is simply subjective evaluation and makes Art a competition, when it isn't. Bach might be the master of writing fugues, but for what reasons? Maybe Bach was the best in a lot of genres in his time, but again, for what reasons, academically speaking, and does that really make him the best overall composer, or just the best at achieving the genres that were popular in his time? There may have been a far lesser known, local, musician that was doing something radically different that we know nothing about.

Do you see the point I'm trying to make, do you see it as valid?


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

Why can't we just discuss the art and what we appreciate/dislike about it instead of making claims about superiority and the like? I believe we can have competitions, to see who achieves the criteria the best that the judges are looking for, but that doesn't make them the best pianist at the chosen work for the competition; it just means he/she played it the best in the way the competition was looking for.


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## DBLee (Jan 8, 2018)

Captainnumber36 said:


> It attempts to generate concepts which try to explain too much and we lose a lot of valuable meaning in that process.


I don't know Captain...you seem to be generalizing generalizations. :tiphat:


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

DBLee said:


> I don't know Captain...you seem to be generalizing generalizations. :tiphat:


Maybe, genres are a pretty good example of positive use of generalizations imo.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

I don't see why general statements are automatically undesirable. It's virtually impossible to talk about any subject without placing individual things into broader categories and making general statements about those categories. Even in science we place species into genera.

The problem is not generalizing, but overgeneralizing. Is it overgeneralizing to say that Beethoven's symphonies are greater than Czerny's? Not if we give reasons for our judgment. In the process of giving reasons we can hope to become more perceptive and discriminating. To refrain from generalizing is to act as if there are trees but no forest.


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

Woodduck said:


> I don't see why general statements are automatically undesirable. It's virtually impossible to talk about any subject without placing individual things into broader categories and making general statements about those categories. Even in science we place species into genera.
> 
> The problem is not generalizing, but overgeneralizing. Is it overgeneralizing to say that Beethoven's symphonies are greater than Czerny's? Not if we give reasons for our judgment. In the process of giving reasons we can hope to become more perceptive and discriminating. To refrain from generalizing is to act as if there are trees but no forest.


Well put...........


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

In the real world, generalisations about races, genders, ages and so on are at the heart of offensive "-isms" and in justifying discrimination. It is obvious how such generalisations are both offensive and seriously erroneous and also that discrimination against certain groups of people by others groups of people is unacceptable. But taste in art _is _about discrimination.

I guess it is OK to use broad generalisations to say subjective things like "I don't like pop music/classical music/baroque music/piano music" but I feel there remains a need to be open to examples from the catagory that don't fit your opinion. To make a statement that those things are (objectively) "bad" and, perhaps, to claim that this is because of this or that reason, is surely risky and dishonest unless you really know a lot of the category that you are criticising - and why would you if you hate it?

So, I guess what I am saying is that if you are going to use a generalisation you need to be prepared to back them up with the detail. And the trouble comes when generalisations on a forum like this are a resort of the ignorant and are used to talk about something that the speaker has only very limited knowledge about. That is at best laziness.


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## Reichstag aus LICHT (Oct 25, 2010)

Captainnumber36 said:


> Maybe, genres are a pretty good example of positive use of generalizations imo.


"Genrelizations", perhaps


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## MarkW (Feb 16, 2015)

Okay. The c-sharp in the cellos in the seventh measure of the Eroica Symphony is an absolute moment of genius.


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