# Obscure key signatures and pieces composed in those particular and rare keys.



## Fugue Meister (Jul 5, 2014)

These are the keys composers usually avoid with some rare exception and thats what I'm interested in here... 

Keys like C# (that major folks) that Ravel used for "Gaspard de la unit" piano suite and seemingly because he was trying to write a piece that could boast the most difficult. Then there's keys like d# (again minor here, see how I do it) which I know Scriabin wrote an etude in but I can't name much else. 

Anyway what are some tonally wayward pieces you know and like that you could share with others who are keen to know the full range of tonality... 

Sometimes these rarer keys have some beautiful stuff.. I love Mozart's piano concerto no. 23 k. (488) but in particular it's because of the hauntingly exquisite adagio in f#, the only time Mozart ever ventured there.


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## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

Piano literature abounds in keys that would be considered odd in orchestral music. Part II of Mahler's Eighth Symphony begins in E-flat minor, and G-flat major is an important key in his Second Symphony (the entrance of the chorus).

A number of passages in Strauss's Salome are written in C# major, because C# minor is the primary key he uses to represent the protagonist.

One of Haydn's Symphonies is in the key of B major.


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## Kopachris (May 31, 2010)

F#, of course. Some instruments transpose weird for F# major, but it's been used in orchestral music a few times... Haydn's Farewell symphony, part of Strauss's Der Rosenkavalier. Messiaen really liked using it, though.


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## Fugue Meister (Jul 5, 2014)

I love F# Beethoven's op. 78, piano sonata 24... is one of my favorites, I also have another favorite that has that key, Shostakovich's 14th string quartet... a brilliant work from his late period. 

Oh and Mahlerian, I'd never really thought about B being really obscure but to honest I can't really think of too many things written in that key, thanks for bringing it up..


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## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

Fugue Meister said:


> I love F# Beethoven's op. 78, piano sonata 24... is one of my favorites, I also have another favorite that has that key, Shostakovich's 14th string quartet... a brilliant work from his late period.
> 
> Oh and Mahlerian, I'd never really thought about B being really obscure but to honest I can't really think of too many things written in that key, thanks for bringing it up..


B minor is relatively common in Baroque music (far less so in Classical era), but B major, with 5 sharps, is uncommon in most eras. The Firebird ends in B major as well.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Dvorak's Cello Concerto, B minor.

Tchaikovsky's Piano Concerto #1 B Flat minor.

Tchaikovsky's String Quartet #3 E flat minor.


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## Guest (Sep 7, 2014)

Fugue Meister said:


> These are the keys composers usually avoid with some rare exception and thats what I'm interested in here...
> Keys like C# (that major folks) that Ravel used for "Gaspard de la unit" piano suite and seemingly because he was trying to write a piece that could boast the most difficult. Then there's keys like d# (again minor here, see how I do it) which I know Scriabin wrote an etude in but I can't name much else.
> Anyway what are some tonally wayward pieces you know and like that you could share with others who are keen to know the full range of tonality...
> Sometimes these rarer keys have some beautiful stuff.. I love Mozart's piano concerto no. 23 k. (488) but in particular it's because of the hauntingly exquisite adagio in f#, the only time Mozart ever ventured there.


Well, to be frank with you FM, if you don't have perfect pitch I don't see what the issue could be (today) apart from mechanical manipulations. I'm sure MillionRainbows (MR) will interject at this point, but I'd like to sideline him (or her) for the moment.
As far as I know, key signatures were pretty much limited to tuning systems (we get that from MR), the instrument technology and the amateur vs. professional context of performance. Even so, that seems at odds with the amateur context of some Haydn string quartets that employ multiple sharps and flats, and subtleties relating to D#/E-flat, for example).
As a string player, and depending on the key of course, there is a difference between D# and E-flat, and even within a scale there is a semitonal difference between the third-to-fourth degree and the seventh-to-octave note. At least that is how I have always played my instrument. To put it very simplistically, a semitone ain't always a semitone.
All I can tell you as any orchestral player today is that we hate complicated key signatures.


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## GraemeG (Jun 30, 2009)

Venus from the Planets has its central section (where the violin solo starts) in F#.

There are some pretty weird key signatures in Schubert's Impromptus.
cheers,
GG


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## Celloissimo (Mar 29, 2013)

There's a brief section in The Well-Tempered Clavier that's in E#-Minor for some bizarre reason. It's enharmonic with F Minor, but I guess it was already in a sharp key signature.


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## spradlig (Jul 25, 2012)

I've mentioned this before on a different thread: the link

http://www.cisdur.de/e_index.html

lists classical works with key signatures that have 7 accidentals, plus two uses (not in actual music) of B# major, which has 5 double-sharps and two sharps. The only one of the pieces I'm familiar with is Korngold's Left Hand Piano Concerto. I was startled to discover that it was in C# major, since I'd never encountered such a key signature before at the beginning of a piece.


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## Chordalrock (Jan 21, 2014)

Mozart may not have written other complete movements in F sharp minor, but he certainly wrote passages in other pieces in that key.

Anyway, the most interesting use, before the 20th century, of key signatures that I've seen is in Dufay's and Caron's music: the mixed signature of open key and one flat (so, different keys for different voices), resulting in many false relations. Performers still often interpret these compositions wrong because they can't believe that these composers meant exactly what they wrote. (The Binchois Consort and the Huelgas Ensemble are at least two reliable interpreters.)


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## dgee (Sep 26, 2013)

^^^ slow mvmt of PC23 is in f# minor


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## violadude (May 2, 2011)

Korngold's Symphony is in F# Major. So is Scriabin's 4th piano sonata I think.


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## jpar3 (Mar 9, 2016)

Mozart avoided b minor. Only the keyboard adagio k 540 is in that key - a great little piece


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## athrun200 (Dec 13, 2016)

Fugue Meister said:


> These are the keys composers usually avoid with some rare exception and thats what I'm interested in here...
> 
> Keys like C# (that major folks) that Ravel used for "Gaspard de la unit" piano suite and seemingly because he was trying to write a piece that could boast the most difficult. Then there's keys like d# (again minor here, see how I do it) which I know Scriabin wrote an etude in but I can't name much else.
> 
> ...


Personally, I think the obscurity of a key signature depends on the instrument. C# major might be difficult for piano, but it is as easy as C major in chromatic harmonica. So I assume this post focuses on piano music.


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## isorhythm (Jan 2, 2015)

Kopachris said:


> F#, of course. Some instruments transpose weird for F# major, but it's been used in orchestral music a few times... Haydn's Farewell symphony, part of Strauss's Der Rosenkavalier. Messiaen really liked using it, though.


Jumping into this old thread to say that my very favorite Bach prelude and fugue is the F# major one from WTC book II.


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

Kopachris said:


> F#, of course.


one of best known: Korngold symphony in f-sharp major


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## atlanteanmuse (May 29, 2013)

It's just a small portion of a piece, but Chopin's Polonaise-Fantaisie Op. 61 actually goes into A# major for several bars (in the B major lento section) - with F-, C- and G- double sharps notated.


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## GraemeG (Jun 30, 2009)

And the slow movement of Strauss op11 Horn concerto has a rather alarming 7 flats at the start of every line. Just as well it's a friendly tempo.
Graeme


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## silentio (Nov 10, 2014)

For "very" sharp and "very" flat, I am fond of the brooding E-flat Minor and the ethereal F-sharp Major. These are my favorite pieces written in these keys:

*E-flat Minor:*











*F-sharp Major:*


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