# A question for composers



## obwan (Oct 24, 2011)

What do you do when, or better yet how do you prevent the following situation.

Your sitting down writting some simple melody or something, and your not sure if its just such a great tune or its actually a famous melody from some work you can't remember hearing, and thats why it sounds so good to you. 

How do you avoid 'accidentially' plagiarising without knowing it?


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## Guest (Feb 7, 2013)

a) Listen to lots and lots of music and remember what you've listened to.

b) Don't write simple melodies. Or something, either.

c) Write only things that would not exist had you not written them.


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## Novelette (Dec 12, 2012)

It depends, honestly. Sometimes I experiment with purely contrapuntal polyphony, that is, based on the principles of voice-leading and Roman School counterpoint. When writing in that manner, I've never found myself writing what has already been written.

In chordal music, I found that I did so only once, when I was 14. Since then, I've composed in accordance with the principles some guy just listed.


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## EddieRUKiddingVarese (Jan 8, 2013)

Transpose Transpose Transpose chromatic or scalar or even a mixture.............


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## tdc (Jan 17, 2011)

some guy said:


> c) Write only things that would not exist had you not written them.


In reality I don't think this approach has been very successful. Virtually all successful composers actually borrow, and 'steal' stuff all the time. Even Stravinsky knew this.


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## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

tdc said:


> In reality I don't think this approach has been very successful. Virtually all successful composers actually borrow, and 'steal' stuff all the time. Even Stravinsky knew this.


What do you mean by "even" Stravinsky? It was his normal _modus operandi_ to make all the use he wanted of others' material!


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## tdc (Jan 17, 2011)

Mahlerian said:


> What do you mean by "even" Stravinsky? It was his normal _modus operandi_ to make all the use he wanted of others' material!


I mean 'even Stravinsky' because he is often regarded as an innovative and fresh composer - not overly conservative. Yet even Stravinsky admitted to stealing music from others.


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

Mahlerian said:


> What do you mean by "even" Stravinsky? It was his normal _modus operandi_ to make all the use he wanted of others' material!


Ditto Bach, Mozart, just about anybody....

But, for 'checking' if that little riff is actually a few notes of Brahms, there is always the Barlow-Morgenstern index of musical themes, and this online extension, addition:
http://www.multimedialibrary.com/barlow/index.asp


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## BurningDesire (Jul 15, 2012)

I resent calling it "stealing". Musical quotation, whether intended or accidental, is a perfectly legitimate compositional technique. I don't like the insinuation that it is an evil action.


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## Ramako (Apr 28, 2012)

obwan said:


> How do you avoid 'accidentially' plagiarising without knowing it?





BurningDesire said:


> I resent calling it "stealing". Musical quotation, whether intended or accidental, is a perfectly legitimate compositional technique. I don't like the insinuation that it is an evil action.


I frequently 'plagiarise' (and not only because of my style). For example, I wrote a piece for a birthday recently and I based the main theme on 'Happy Birthday', but transformed it so that it wouldn't be recognisable. Until I made it obvious in the middle of the piece :devil:

So what if you use a theme which happens to be from the overture to an obscure early Mozart singspiel? It is such a little part of the composition. If you write yourself down into the composition, and concentrate on doing that as well as possible - not on trying to be different to other people - then all should be well.


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## tdc (Jan 17, 2011)

............


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## tdc (Jan 17, 2011)

BurningDesire said:


> I resent calling it "stealing". Musical quotation, whether intended or accidental, is a perfectly legitimate compositional technique. I don't like the insinuation that it is an evil action.


Yes, that is why I also put the quotations around the word "steal", I agree with you, and I don't in any way mean to insinuate it is an "evil" action in this context.

edit - I was using that word because it was used in the Stravinsky quote.


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## Petwhac (Jun 9, 2010)

The Stravinsky quote " A good composer doesn't borrow, he steals." To me means not plagiarism or imitation but taking an idea from someone else and_ making it your own_. Stravinsky used a lot of material derived from previous composers but it always ended up unmistakably Stravinsky. So strong was his musical personality.

I agree with some guy (shock and horror), an encyclopaedic knowledge is a good failsafe for avoiding plagiarism.


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## Guest (Feb 8, 2013)

Ramako said:


> I frequently 'plagiarise' (and not only because of my style). For example, I wrote a piece for a birthday recently and I based the main theme on 'Happy Birthday', but transformed it so that it wouldn't be recognisable. Until I made it obvious in the middle of the piece


Careful! You may owe someone some royalties. This is from Wikepdia:

"Happy Birthday to You", also known more simply as "Happy Birthday", is a song that is traditionally sung to celebrate the anniversary of a person's birth. According to the 1998 Guinness Book of World Records, "Happy Birthday to You" is the most recognized song in the English language, followed by "For He's a Jolly Good Fellow". The song's base lyrics have been translated into at least 18 languages.[1], p. 17 The melody of "Happy Birthday to You" comes from the song "Good Morning to All", which was written and composed by American siblings Patty Hill and Mildred J. Hill in 1893.[2][3] Patty was a kindergarten principal in Louisville, Kentucky, developing various teaching methods at what is now the Little Loomhouse;[4] Mildred was a pianist and composer.[1], p. 7 The sisters created "Good Morning to All" as a song that would be easy to be sung by young children.[1], p. 14

The combination of melody and lyrics in "Happy Birthday to You" first appeared in print in 1912, and probably existed even earlier.[1], pp. 31-32 None of these early appearances included credits or copyright notices. The Summy Company registered for copyright in 1935, crediting authors Preston Ware Orem and Mrs. R.R. Forman.[citation needed] In 1990, Warner Chappell purchased the company owning the copyright for $15 million, with the value of "Happy Birthday" estimated at $5 million.[5] Based on the 1935 copyright registration, Warner claims that the United States copyright will not expire until 2030, and that unauthorized public performances of the song are technically illegal unless royalties are paid to it. In one specific instance in February 2010, these royalties were said to amount to $700.[6] In the European Union, the copyright of the song will expire on December 31, 2016.[7] The actual American copyright status of "Happy Birthday to You" began to draw more attention with the passage of the Copyright Term Extension Act in 1998. When the U.S. Supreme Court upheld the Act in Eldred v. Ashcroft in 2003, Associate Justice Stephen Breyer specifically mentioned "Happy Birthday to You" in his dissenting opinion.[8] American law professor Robert Brauneis, who heavily researched the song, has expressed strong doubts that it is still under copyright.[1]


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## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

Jerome said:


> Careful! You may owe someone some royalties. This is from Wikepdia:


Not if only the tune was used. The tune is public domain. It's the lyrics that are under copyright.


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

Mahlerian said:


> Not if only the tune was used. The tune is public domain. It's the lyrics that are under copyright.


Both music and lyric are copyright, using notes and no text still means a liability, depending upon what you write and how you notate it.

Interesting, in the states anyway, the split of royalty on a song and its lyric: 
Composer 49% / Lyricist 51%.

I've always wondered who struck that deal, arrived at those percentages!


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