# Feeling rather discouraged



## Sonata

So I mentioned taking a week break from the piano just before Christmas. I eased back into playing, starting with 10-15 minutes. Now one week later, I am hurting again. I have tried paying attention to good form and technique, yet here I am with my wrist and forearm still hurting. I've been told my wrists need to get strengthened, but lord how long should this be taking? 

Should I quit playing entirely until I get my instructor? 
Should I get hand weights and do other excercises to strengthen my muscles? Play ten minutes a day and no more?

I want this so much, I am so disappointed right now. My husband plays without an ounce of pain, so it's tremendously hard to see him happily playing when I am having trouble doing so (though I am still happy for him)


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## Sonata

So I called and got set up with a teacher next week for an introductory lesson. She isn't sure if she has room I her schedule to take me on, but at least I can have her evaluate to see if I am doing anything g terribly wrong. She said that it's not typical for the amount I am playing to be having this much soreness. We'll see if she can help.


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## Flamme

Im not a player so i cant help you technically but you have my moral support i know from some of my friends how hard can be piano playing...


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## PetrB

Patience. You are talking a kind of strength which is not 'bulk' and cannot be built up quickly -- it has to do with stamina as much, or more, than anything else. [Add: Building stamina is a long-term deal. End Add.]

Not that I recommend it, but I was the only one in my high school gym class, when it came around to the 'national physical standard' testing, who could come up with a finger-tip pushup. This, next to all the 'powerful' team Football (American) jocks... that strength was there, of course, from years of playing the piano hours a day, having started at age six.

Slow, steady, repetition, short sessions. A teacher can tell you how much is enough, and whether or not to do that several times or 'once' a day.

This is a Tortoise / Hare type of business: have faith, do as instructed, and you will accelerate toward your desired goal more quickly than 'doing it wrong,' which can actually inhibit / retard your progress. The slow and steady does NOT show 'instant results.' Often, you only realize the result after it has happened, that gotten to by an almost faith-based investment of 'just going on' until enough is built up, one day, it will just consciously 'feel different,' and, after the fact, you will realize 'that worked!'

It is very easy to zealously want to 'overplay' if you love it, and have just started. It is even more an odd place as an adult beginner, you know what 'advanced' and 'good' mean and are, and you are very eager to get there: a young child is delighted with each and every most simple of accomplishments

So 'own it.' "I am a base beginner and proud of it!" -- i.e. I'm going to play stuff children play, and be the best damned beginner I can be.

Patience (easy to preach -- your own to acquire.)

Accept, whatever your age, you are a beginner, because you can only start from where you are.

Chin up, then, please 

P.s. I am reminded to boringly harp away on recommending the Bartok MicroKosmos, Book I.


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## Head_case

Tut tut. 
Did you not buy two finger exercisers as I'd suggested before?? 










Your fingers will need several months to loosen up. Normal humans have very weak fingers for repetitive flexion and extension. You'll be amazed at how little strength you have when you use these.

PetrB is spot on about the slow building up of finger strength and deftness. Agility comes with strength so try playing slow romances and take the tempo at 60bpm


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## tdc

Doing breathing exercises and things like Yoga and/or Tai Chi I've found helpful for similar problems in the past. Trying to make sure you eat a healthy diet and get good nutrition for your body can also help a lot. Another important thing is trying to stay very relaxed when you play, and as already suggested don't try to do too much all at once - chip away at it. I am also learning piano at an older age so I have to take this advice myself too.

(and just picked up Bartok's Microkosmos Book I)


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## Head_case

> Normal humans have very weak fingers for repetitive flexion and extension


Didn't mean to sound superior...what I mean was ..there are normal humans and then there are flutists


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde

Whatever you do, don't ask Schumann for help with strengthening your wrists and fingers.


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## Ramako

I remember my piano teacher said that she had awful problems with hand pain (I think it might have been arthritis but I couldn't swear to that now) and she did something called the Alexander Technique which, if I understand correctly, effectively said that she had been playing the wrong way for years and years and that was the cause of her problems... I certainly haven't looked into it much myself, but it sorted out her problems at any rate...

When I was a little more zealous with my piano playing I used to play piano exercises especially designed to strengthen the fingers and such. Now I don't usually have many problems except with extended playing...

Anyway, best of luck with solving your problems


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## Head_case

> she did something called the Alexander Technique which, if I understand correctly, effectively said that she had been playing the wrong way for years and years and that was the cause of her problems...


Apparently it's an excellent cure for haemorrhoids.

http://www.zimbio.com/Hemroids/articles/MX0FHGvRVsU/Cure+Hemorrhoids+Naturally+48hours

I don't know if that is serious or not, but flutists use it to control the air column too. When the Alexander Technique is combined with the Bates Method (for correcting eyesight without using prescription lenses), the results are impressive.


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## Ravndal

stay away from octaves and chords of same size if you can. they will destroy your hand if you don't do them properly. and as i have said before, practice slow. the reason you are hurting, is probably because you play faster than you can. PetrB wrote "Patience", and he is absolutely right. Rest your fingers after every tone you are playing.


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## DavidA

My wife teaches the piano and she has quite a number of adults learning. One problem she has with them is that they always want to run before they can walk because they think as adults they should be learning faster. I would certainly advise you to get a teacher who can help you with how to sit on how to relax at the piano. Sometimes those symptoms you're experiencing can be because by a lack of relaxation. It may be though you just need to strengthen your muscles rather like an athlete does with his. There is some soreness initially but you work through it.


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## PetrB

Head_case said:


> Didn't mean to sound superior...what I mean was ..there are normal humans and then there are flutists


I beg pardon, there are normal humans and then there are performing musicians, ahem.

But kudos for you for taking on an instrument which requires more air and a stronger diaphragm than playing the tuba


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## Head_case

There is a really cool tuba player on the south bank of the river Thames in London. He plays a tuba as a street performer and adds a little lighter fluid to create a dancing flame which jigs in time with his music 

Tuba players are all hot air :lol:


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## Sonata

Thanks for the advice and encouragement everyone, I really appreciate it. I have to say, I think I have a pretty good mindset in terms of being an adult beginner, I'm not trying to rush anything and I'm comfortable with learning slowly. That's kind of why I know the piano is the instrument for me.....with the guitar I wanted to "skip steps" and didn't have the patience needed. I'm not rushing to play above my level.

I'm wearing a tennis elbow brace per my doctor's recommendation which I think is helping as long as I use it regularly. I'll start back with doing very short sessions and try to build on it using the above recommendations. Thanks!


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## sospiro

I was sorry to read about the problems you've been having and it must have been so disappointing. Hope the brace works & that you'll be able to start lessons again and without the pain.


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## Sonata

Would it be better for me to take a complete break for four or five days (again) to let my hands rest, or should I continue to play every day, just for very short periods?


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## Ravndal

Probably take a break. Should start exercise though. Like swimming or running.


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## Head_case

Another vote for taking a break before you break something else 

Maybe spend the time practicing with a metronome...or trying to read the bass clef?

As a flute player, I'm comfortable reading the higher ledger lines. When I pick up the bass recorder again, I get really messed up with reading the bass clef and transposing a fourth. I would like to read the bass clef with fluency so that I can just hammer anything out by sight reading. The only way to do that is with practice sadly....


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## Sonata

Ravndal said:


> Probably take a break. Should start exercise though. Like swimming or running.


Yeah, I agree. I'm working on getting back to my kickboxing class on a regular basis. And snowshoeing....plenty of snow for that!

So, update:
I'm needing a very take-charge approach to this to stay optimistic.

1) If I can get a lesson in the next two weeks, I am not going to play until I can see the instructor, that way I can start from scratch. If it will be longer than two weeks, I am going to rest a minimum of five days, up to ten if the pain hasn't fully resolved.

2) I will get back to exercising regularly, 2-3 days per week in the meantime for overall body health and mental well-being.

3) Continue to listen to lots of solo piano for inspiration, and continue to read up on musical theory, read my new Grieg Lyric Pieces sheet music for practice, etc.


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## Vaneyes

Sonata said:


> Yeah, I agree. I'm working on getting back to my kickboxing class on a regular basis. And snowshoeing....plenty of snow for that!
> 
> So, update:
> I'm needing a very take-charge approach to this to stay optimistic.
> 
> 1) If I can get a lesson in the next two weeks, I am not going to play until I can see the instructor, that way I can start from scratch. If it will be longer than two weeks, I am going to rest a minimum of five days, up to ten if the pain hasn't fully resolved.
> 
> 2) I will get back to exercising regularly, 2-3 days per week in the meantime for overall body health and mental well-being.
> 
> 3) Continue to listen to lots of solo piano for inspiration, and continue to read up on musical theory, read my new Grieg Lyric Pieces sheet music for practice, etc.


Sorry to hear of your difficulty. Resting to let things heal is a good thing. That's what I'm doing now, from excessive golf practice. Two weeks off for me. I'll start again next weekend.

Stretching and walking may be helpful during your down period. Once you get back to 75% to 80%, don't be tempted to push it. Still progress at a pace you can easily handle.

A couple of things you might consider for the future. These have helped me.

*Core exercises* can strengthen abdominal and back muscles. Some of these can be severe, so do not do those. The good related websites that I've seen, emphasize only what you can handle. Be selective in both action and repetition.

*Hands, fingers, wrists, and arm strengthening*, can be aided by squeezing a tennis or squash ball, squeezing spring-type hand-grips (pic below), and simple hand and arm lifts and rotations with 3 lb. hand-weights.

View attachment 11658


Note: Some hand-grips don't have enough spring in them. Get the ones you can easily squeeze. Too firm can damage your wrists.

Re weights, no more than 3 lb. weights are needed. It takes very little to build the limited strength which you need. Stay away from punch bags, or similar aggressive action.

Hope some of this is helpful. Get healthy, soldier!


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## kv466

Man, what a downer! I hate to hear about things like this because I know exactly what it's like to be right in the middle of a sweet groove or a killer lead and have your hands give out on you; and it sucks!

If you don't have a problem and are still just developing the muscles then I would say keep going...with caution, but keep at it. That really depends on you physically and medically, though. If you are like me and do have atrophies, I feel for you.

The Grip Master works really good at building strength, too, but nothing is as good as 'etudes' or simple exercises.










Nifty, little gadget.


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## Ravndal

im not sure kickboxing is the best alternative, it can be a load to your wrists. its important to find a exercise were you train your body, so you get blood circulation trough your hands, and doesn't stiffen up your wrists. like swimming.


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## Ravndal

Should check out the exercises here http://www.musictheory.net/


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## Sonata

You all are awesome, it's nice to have this support. I do enjoy swimming, so I'll get back to it. And it's really amazing the supplemental music eduation that can be found online!


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## Sonata

haven't found a teacher with availability yet


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## Ravndal

Head_case said:


> Tut tut.
> Did you not buy two finger exercisers as I'd suggested before??
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Your fingers will need several months to loosen up. Normal humans have very weak fingers for repetitive flexion and extension. You'll be amazed at how little strength you have when you use these.
> 
> PetrB is spot on about the slow building up of finger strength and deftness. Agility comes with strength so try playing slow romances and take the tempo at 60bpm


Haha. I actually ordered one of those because of you. Strange device. Might work though


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## PavelC

Sonata, I have just started playing the piano as well. And my first classes had nothing to do with playing or musical theory understanding. All the teacher did, was trying to explain to me how to relax and how one should feel when playing the piano, which is, as free as you can. There is an interview with Mr. Arrau where he says the same thing.

There are a group of exercises, I've been recommended by my teacher, that can make you understand how you should behave when playing:
Sit down on your bed with pillows beside you, and just through your hands on them, that is the relaxation that we are trying to achieve.


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## Bone

I have been dealing with a tooth that is poking out a bit and now causes extreme discomfort when I play. I have cut back on gigs and I probably practice less than 30 minutes a week. Feel your pain - hope things work out for you.


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## Zeke

Sonata, 

When I started piano lessons I got started with a bad teacher who assigned me pieces that were way above my level. I quit after my hands starting hurting when attempting one of these pieces he assigned me. I knew this was a bad sign so I quit, then found another teacher. Now after about 7 years I am playing much more advanced music. The difference is not that my fingers are "stronger" (fingers have very few muscles in them). The difference is that when I first was learning I didn't know how to move my arms/wrists/palms/fingers properly. I had very stiff hands and trying to do too much too fast can cause permanent damage apparently. Now much more difficult passages are so much easier for me. It is one thing to tell yourself to be relaxed, but it is another to actually have all parts of your arms/hands be relaxed. You may think you are relaxed, but it does take time and practice to use everything in a non-stressed manner.

If you are hurting perhaps you are attempting too much too soon.


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## Sonata

Zeke said:


> Sonata,
> 
> When I started piano lessons I got started with a bad teacher who assigned me pieces that were way above my level. I quit after my hands starting hurting when attempting one of these pieces he assigned me. I knew this was a bad sign so I quit, then found another teacher. Now after about 7 years I am playing much more advanced music. The difference is not that my fingers are "stronger" (fingers have very few muscles in them). The difference is that when I first was learning I didn't know how to move my arms/wrists/palms/fingers properly. I had very stiff hands and trying to do too much too fast can cause permanent damage apparently. Now much more difficult passages are so much easier for me. It is one thing to tell yourself to be relaxed, but it is another to actually have all parts of your arms/hands be relaxed. You may think you are relaxed, but it does take time and practice to use everything in a non-stressed manner.
> 
> *If you are hurting perhaps you are attempting too much too soon.*


It would seem that way wouldn't it? I started with extremely basic pieces, still pretty much do. Though 40 minutes at a time was probably too much for me. Though it appears there were other factors outside of the piano that caused some of the issues. I have eased back in and started with an instructor who is very aware of the pain, so we focus on warming up and minimizing discomfort.

Probably my biggest help has been accupuncture. And I hope to start physical therapy soon, but if my insurance doesn't cover it I think my own careful rehab has been somewhat effective.


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## Sonata

Bone said:


> I have been dealing with a tooth that is poking out a bit and now causes extreme discomfort when I play. I have cut back on gigs and I probably practice less than 30 minutes a week. Feel your pain - hope things work out for you.


How frustrating! I hope you have an improvement in your trouble soon.


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## Zeke

That's great. I also heard, although I violate it regularly, that you should take a break after every fifteen minutes. Good Luck!


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## Head_case

hey...really glad to hear you're still playing and persevering and the pain doesn.t grind things to a halt.

I started taking up the lute again and found that I am getting shoulder ache...fingerache...backache....and brain ache just trying to get my head around it. Its not that bad that it stops me but at times I think....."just another 5 minutes.." and carrying that 4kg monster really leaves me feeling the agony afterwards.

Without a teacher I have no idea if what I.m doing is right or wrong so I will have to camp out in an internet cafe during break and study more youtoob clips carefully....


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## Taggart

I started back about two and a half years ago. I think the thing that surprised my wife most was that I had to stop about every 20 mins because my hands couldn't take it.

The piano is an intensely physical instrument. It presents you with a rather weird challenge - you need to relax to be able to let the music flow but at the same time you need (some) tension in your fingers to get the keys to work.

There are all sorts of things to consider e.g. breathing - if you don't breathe rhythmically then it will throw you off beat; you need to be able to know where the keys are without looking; you need to be able to control your fingers.

Most of the good exercise books suggest that pain is inevitable but that you should relax, change the exercise, slow the pace down and not do too much.

Since you are teaching your fingers then it should be little and often until they learn where to go. Beginners only do one or two octaves of scales whereas once you get used to it, you will be aiming for three or four octaves.

The basic thing to do is persevere - you will suddenly find that what was impossible three months ago is now (apparently) quite simple.

Enjoy.


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