# Should the second half of "In fernem Land" be cut?



## adriesba (Dec 30, 2019)

Been wondering about this for awhile. What do you all think? Is it necessary to the story? Does it slow the action down at a critical point, or is the idea of "delaying the action" a cliche that applies here? What exactly was Wagner's opinion on this matter? etc.


----------



## adriesba (Dec 30, 2019)

This site I found has Wagner and Liszt's letters to each other. This is helpful since it was these letters in which Wagner said to cut the second half of "In fernem Land". I was under the impression that Wagner wanted it cut because he thought Karl Beck basically could not do it justice, but it seems this is incorrect or an assumption. Wagner doesn't say anything like that. It seems he wanted it cut for some other reasoning.

If you search for the word "cut" in the first link, you can read Wagner's ideas on this cut.

http://www.gutenberg.org/cache/epub/3835/pg3835-images.html
http://www.gutenberg.org/cache/epub/4234/pg4234-images.html

Does anyone know if these pages are accurate?


----------



## annaw (May 4, 2019)

Gutenberg should definitely be accurate. They just release free ebooks and focus on older works for which U.S. copyright has expired. Sort of like free Kindle. An English translation of Wagner's _Mein Leben_ is also available there .


----------



## Azol (Jan 25, 2015)

For those not inclined to search through the (huge) body of the text, here is the quote:



> But now I have first of all a great wish to address to you:
> 
> Give the opera as it is; cut nothing!
> 
> ...


----------



## wkasimer (Jun 5, 2017)

adriesba said:


> Been wondering about this for awhile. What do you all think? Is it necessary to the story? Does it slow the action down at a critical point, or is the idea of "delaying the action" a cliche that applies here? What exactly was Wagner's opinion on this matter? etc.


A related question - has anyone ever heard that passage sung in performance? I've heard it included in couple of studio recordings (Leinsdorf with Konya, Barenboim with Seiffert), but I'm not aware of it ever being performed that way.


----------



## adriesba (Dec 30, 2019)

Azol said:


> For those not inclined to search through the (huge) body of the text, here is the quote:


Yes, that's one of the quotes.
There are other quotes about performing the work without cuts, such as:



> I desire that, with the exception of the second part of Lohengrin's tale, which I determined from the beginning to cut, my opera should be given as it is, without any omissions.
> 
> If cuts are made, the chain of comprehension will be torn asunder, and my style, which the public are only just beginning to take in, so far from being made more accessible, will be further removed from the public and the actors. To capitulate to the enemy is not to conquer; the enemy himself must surrender; and that enemy is the laziness and flabbiness of our actors, who must be forcibly driven to feel and think.


 ...


> If my "Lohengrin" can be preserved only by tearing its well-calculated and artistic context to pieces, in other words if it has to be cut owing to the laziness of the actors, I shall abandon opera altogether. Weimar in that case will have no more interest for me, and I shall have written my last opera.


He also talks about cuts in _Tannhäuser.

_It's interesting that he says he had the cut planned "from the beginning". I did not see Karl Beck mentioned in relation to the cut. Those who make that connection, I think are making assumptions or are misinformed.


----------



## adriesba (Dec 30, 2019)

wkasimer said:


> A related question - has anyone ever heard that passage sung in performance? I've heard it included in couple of studio recordings (Leinsdorf with Konya, Barenboim with Seiffert), but I'm not aware of it ever being performed that way.


From what I've read, it has been performed in opera houses, but rarely. I also thought I read that Bayreuth performed it once, but I'm not sure if that's the case.


----------



## wkasimer (Jun 5, 2017)

adriesba said:


> From what I've read, it has been performed in opera houses, but rarely. I also thought I read that Bayreuth performed it once, but I'm not sure if that's the case.


This version, by Franz Völker, was recorded at Bayreuth in 1936, but I don't know whether or not it's a live performance. The sound quality suggests that it's not live.


----------



## adriesba (Dec 30, 2019)

wkasimer said:


> This version, by Franz Völker, was recorded at Bayreuth in 1936, but I don't know whether or not it's a live performance. The sound quality suggests that it's not live.


Yes, that's the Bayreuth performance I was thinking of. Whether or not that was for an audience, I don't know. Also not sure if they ever performed the whole opera with the second verse.


----------



## annaw (May 4, 2019)

wkasimer said:


> This version, by Franz Völker, was recorded at Bayreuth in 1936, but I don't know whether or not it's a live performance. The sound quality suggests that it's not live.


An off-topic comment: Franz Völker's voice is so stunning!! How on earth haven't I discovered him earlier?!


----------



## wkasimer (Jun 5, 2017)

annaw said:


> An off-topic comment: Franz Völker's voice is so stunning!! How on earth haven't I discovered him earlier?!


Probably because a) a lot of people don't listen to recordings that old, b) those that do think that the only Wagnerian tenor of that era was Melchior, and c) his politics.

A truly great singer - it's a shame that his only complete recording, a Lohengrin from Berlin in 1942, shows a voice that had already worn out, even though he was only 43.


----------



## annaw (May 4, 2019)

wkasimer said:


> Probably because a) a lot of people don't listen to recordings that old, b) those that do think that the only Wagnerian tenor of that era was Melchior, and c) his politics.
> 
> *A truly great singer - it's a shame that his only complete recording, a Lohengrin from Berlin in 1942, shows a voice that had already worn out, even though he was only 43.*


That's fascinating! I've been trying to acquaint myself with the singers of the first half of the 20th century. There seemed to be many very great Wagnerian singers but it's more difficult due to lack of full recordings which are usually my main way how I get to know new singers. I do stumble upon some gems time to time when I use Youtube.

Which other great Wagnerian singers from that period would you recommend to listen to?


----------



## wkasimer (Jun 5, 2017)

annaw said:


> Which other great Wagnerian singers from that period would you recommend to listen to?


Sopranos - Leider, Flagstad, Rethberg, Germaine Lubin, and if you're willing to tolerate ancient sound, Johanna Gadski and Emmy Destinn.

Mezzos - Kerstin Thorborg, Karin Branzell, Margarete Klose, Ernestine Schumann-Heink.

Tenors - Melchior and Völker really dominate here, but earlier singers like Jacques Urlus and Hermann Jadlowker are worth hearing, and if you can stand the "wrong language", Cesar Vezzani, Giuseppe Borgatti, Georges Thill and Paul Franz. I think that Franz is perhaps the most underrated tenor of the 20th century.

Baritones: For the lighter roles, Gerhard Hüsch, Heinrich Schlusnus, Josef Schwarz, and Herbert Janssen; for the heavier bass-baritone roles, Hans Herman Nissen, Friedrich Schorr, Michael Bohnen.

Basses: Alexander Kipnis above all, Ludwig Hofmann, Ivar Andresen.

Those are off the top of my head, but there are plenty of others.


----------



## howlingfantods (Jul 27, 2015)

wkasimer said:


> This version, by Franz Völker, was recorded at Bayreuth in 1936, but I don't know whether or not it's a live performance. The sound quality suggests that it's not live.


That's the Tietjen studio performance. There's also excerpts from the live Furtwangler bayreuth performances from the same year available--I have the Archipel release with both, it's a terrific collection--both of the collections are pretty generous, around 30 minutes of the live Furtwangler and around 40 from the studio Tietjen. Both with Muller at something close to her peak too.


----------



## annaw (May 4, 2019)

wkasimer said:


> Sopranos - Leider, Flagstad, Rethberg, Germaine Lubin, and if you're willing to tolerate ancient sound, Johanna Gadski and Emmy Destinn.
> 
> Mezzos - Kerstin Thorborg, Karin Branzell, Margarete Klose, Ernestine Schumann-Heink.
> 
> ...


Thank you  ! I'll check them out!


----------



## adriesba (Dec 30, 2019)

No one mentioned if they think the second verse should stay in. Maybe it's generally agreed that it should be cut? Wagner seemed to insist it be cut anyway.


----------



## howlingfantods (Jul 27, 2015)

adriesba said:


> No one mentioned if they think the second verse should stay in. Maybe it's generally agreed that it should be cut? Wagner seemed to insist it be cut anyway.


i can't gauge it, it sounds jarring to me because i'm so used to it the other way. i think you need listeners a little newer to the work but still familiar with it to listen to it both ways to see what works better for them.


----------



## aussiebushman (Apr 21, 2018)

In my not-so-humble opinion, Volker was arguably one of the greatest tenors not just of that age and far more than just a Heldentenor. I was extremely lucky to get a copy of the Lebendige Vergangenheit pressing at a junk sale.

For more information and examples of this fine singer, see:
https://classicalmusicandmusicians.com/2020/04/24/franz-volker-heldentenor/

And a complete list of Volker's recording can be found here:
https://www.discogs.com/artist/819662-Franz-Völker?filter_anv=1&anv=Franz+Volker&type=Credits&page=2


----------



## aussiebushman (Apr 21, 2018)

annaw said:


> Thank you  ! I'll check them out!


Thank you - Annaw really knows his singers! Never before seen so many of my all-time favorites listed in a single post.


----------



## annaw (May 4, 2019)

aussiebushman said:


> Thank you - *Annaw really knows his singers*! Never before seen so many of my all-time favorites listed in a single post.


Or rather wkasimer knows .

Thanks for the interesting articles!


----------



## Spy Car (Nov 15, 2017)

aussiebushman said:


> In my not-so-humble opinion, Volker was arguably one of the greatest tenors not just of that age and far more than just a Heldentenor. I was extremely lucky to get a copy of the Lebendige Vergangenheit pressing at a junk sale.
> 
> For more information and examples of this fine singer, see:
> https://classicalmusicandmusicians.com/2020/04/24/franz-volker-heldentenor/
> ...


Thanks to you and @wkasimer I dug through my archives last night and listened to every bit of Franz Völker I could find (which was a more considerable about of material than I realized). Then furthered the exploration online, including a beautiful rendition of a favorite Schubert Leider "Du bist die Ruh."

Thanks for the recommendations. Worth losing sleep over.

Bill


----------



## aussiebushman (Apr 21, 2018)

At the risk of hijacking this thread, it is worth commenting on other singers that were mentioned in that post:

Gerhard Husch - a fine lieder singer. His earlier recording of Die Winterreise (I think it was the 1933 release) is pure magic. Alas. not so the recording he made much later in his life - that one is to be avoided

Heinrich Schlusnus - probably the most acclaimed lyric Baritone of the 1920's and 30's. The Earl King is notoriously hard to sing well, but this proves the excellence of the voice and his interpretation





Ivar Andressen - The power and majesty is incomparable. A review in 1929 argued that he was better than Kipness (debatable in my opinion) He was a brilliant Hagen




 (pity about the stupid ad at the start of this clip)

Friedrich Schorr - Capable of performing a vast range of material, he was also maybe the greatest Wotan of all time. Here is a complete list of recordings:
https://www.discogs.com/artist/838869-Friedrich-Schorr

This one brings tears to the eyes:


----------



## annaw (May 4, 2019)

aussiebushman said:


> At the risk of hijacking this thread, it is worth commenting on other singers that were mentioned in that post:
> 
> Gerhard Husch - a fine lieder singer. His earlier recording of Die Winterreise (I think it was the 1933 release) is pure magic. Alas. not so the recording he made much later in his life - that one is to be avoided
> 
> ...


Thanks! All the recommendations have been really eye-opening so far. I find it extremely fascinating to listen to the greats of the early 20th century.


----------



## aussiebushman (Apr 21, 2018)

You are most welcome. Again apologies for hijacking the original thread

Alan


----------



## wkasimer (Jun 5, 2017)

annaw said:


> Thanks! All the recommendations have been really eye-opening so far. I find it extremely fascinating to listen to the greats of the early 20th century.


You might consider acquiring a copy of John Steane's "The Grand Tradition":









Steane's book is essential - vastly more inclusive than my paltry list - but even so, Steane still only scratches the surface.


----------



## annaw (May 4, 2019)

^^^ Whoa, looks great! It would certainly be useful. I‘ll see if I can find it!


----------



## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

annaw said:


> Or rather wkasimer knows .
> 
> Thanks for the interesting articles!


Aussiebushman refers to you as a he. Is Aussie correct?:tiphat:

Btw the Steane is a fabulous book. Well worth tracking down as is Culshaw's book about the recording of the Decca ring, Ring Resounding as is the DVD , The Golden Ring. And down the rabbit hole we go.:lol:


----------



## annaw (May 4, 2019)

Barbebleu said:


> Aussiebushman refers to you as a he. Is Aussie correct?:tiphat:


Oh, yeah, I didn't bother to correct, though maybe I should have. It's "she" .



> Btw the Steane is a fabulous book. Well worth tracking down as is Culshaw's book about the recording of the Decca ring, Ring Resounding as is the DVD , The Golden Ring. And down the rabbit hole we go.:lol:


Yes, I have to add Culshaw to my reading list as well! That list keeps getting longer and longer :lol:.


----------



## superhorn (Mar 23, 2010)

Another once famous and much admired Wagner tenor was Max Lorenz ( 1901-1974 ) . Rene Kollo and Dietrich Fischer Dieskau have expressed their great admiration of him on a documentary about Lorenz which can be seen or Youtube . It's really interesting . Lorenz can be heard as Siegfried in Gotterdammerung in the 1950 La Scala Ring conducted by Furtwangler . He's quite impressive . 
I recommend this video .


----------



## aussiebushman (Apr 21, 2018)

Apologies to Annaw - I should have checked first.

Re Lorenz, yes he was superb despite being a rather dubious piece of work - caught in the act - and not the opera act either!





and




 (great performance - lousy recording quality)


----------



## wkasimer (Jun 5, 2017)

superhorn said:


> Another once famous and much admired Wagner tenor was Max Lorenz ( 1901-1974 ) .


Lorenz is an acquired taste that I have yet to acquire - a stylistic predecessor to tenors like Christian Franz and Lance Ryan.


----------



## howlingfantods (Jul 27, 2015)

wkasimer said:


> Lorenz is an acquired taste that I have yet to acquire - a stylistic predecessor to tenors like Christian Franz and Lance Ryan.


i'm a fan but i can definitely understand those who aren't. but his heger tristan is very special, especially the act 3, and i personally love his performance on the Scala Furtwangler Gotterdammerung. Very touching performance, although the voice is kind of worn.


----------



## wkasimer (Jun 5, 2017)

howlingfantods said:


> i'm a fan but i can definitely understand those who aren't. but his heger tristan is very special,


I bought a copy of this on eBay a few weeks ago, and while I still find Lorenz overemphatic and often unmusical, there's no denying that it's a real Tristan voice and an impressive performance.


----------



## adriesba (Dec 30, 2019)

This thread seems to have turned into Historic Wagner Recordings version 2.0. :lol:

I'm finding this interesting though.


----------



## annaw (May 4, 2019)

aussiebushman said:


> Apologies to Annaw - I should have checked first.
> 
> Re Lorenz, yes he was superb despite being a rather dubious piece of work - caught in the act - and not the opera act either!
> 
> ...


No worries  !

Lorenz certainly had a great Wagnerian voice. I haven't warmed up to his phrasing though. I should probably listen to his recordings a bit more and see if I'll get used to his style. The voice itself is wonderful.


----------



## wkasimer (Jun 5, 2017)

annaw said:


> Lorenz certainly had a great Wagnerian voice. I haven't warmed up to his phrasing though. I should probably listen to his recordings a bit more and see if I'll get used to his style. The voice itself is wonderful.


His best recordings are quite early, before 1935.


----------

