# Was BWV 565 actually written by J.S. Bach?



## Tristan (Jan 5, 2013)

I'm sure this has been discussed before, but hearing this piece twice yesterday (it retains a Halloween theme for many) made me think of the age-old question about it: did Bach actually write the Toccata and Fugue in D minor, BWV 565? Was it perhaps originally written for violin as some claim?

There is something unusual about the piece, especially the toccata, and I can't quite put my finger on it. 

I'm sure some of our users who know more about musicology could weigh in. 

Whoever wrote it, it's an excellent piece regardless.


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## premont (May 7, 2015)

There are many theories about this, but nobody has got the answer. The motoric drive and the originality is not unlike many other early Bach works, and even if it originated in an original work for violin - probably only the fugue - it may well have been Bach who also wrote the original, he arranged many other of his own violin works for keyboard. It is also difficult to name another composer, who might have written it. So I consider it a genuine Bach work until proven otherwise.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Like Premont, I'll agree that Bach didn't write it when somebody tells me, convincingly, who did. Right now, I have no idea who except Bach _could _have written it.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Does anyone know how it got to be attributed to Bach? I'm assuming there's no manuscript in Bach's hand.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Easiest just to say, look in Wiki.


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## jdec (Mar 23, 2013)

The complete fugue is for me "Bach-genius" level. I doubt someone else from the time composed it.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

I note this post on this website



Myriadi said:


> A section in one of Pachelbel's organ fantasias is note-for-note similar to a section in the beginning of the fugue of BWV 565. We (my friends and me) have long decided that at least the fugue of BWV 565 was not written by Bach - somebody liked that bit of Pachelbel and tried to make a fugue out of it, only it wasn't very suitable, so they had to take a lot of drastic measures, and that's how the many oddities of said fugue originated.


I think, but I'm not sure, that he's talking about the Fantasia POP 111


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## premont (May 7, 2015)

Mandryka said:


> I note this post on this website
> 
> Quote from Myriadi: _A section in one of Pachelbel's organ fantasias is note-for-note similar to a section in the beginning of the fugue of BWV 565. We (my friends and me) have long decided that at least the fugue of BWV 565 was not written by Bach - somebody liked that bit of Pachelbel and tried to make a fugue out of it, only it wasn't very suitable, so they had to take a lot of drastic measures, and that's how the many oddities of said fugue originated._


The possible use of material from Pachelbel does not exclude Bach, who also used material from other composers in his younger years.



Mandryka said:


> I think, but I'm not sure, that he's talking about the Fantasia POP 111


Maybe we could ask Myriadi to be more specific in this case.


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## premont (May 7, 2015)

Just having listened to POP 111 twice I did not find any conspicuous similarity with the BWV 565.


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## isorhythm (Jan 2, 2015)

I don't have an opinion on this one way or another, but if you think ONLY BACH could possibly have written this piece you need to listen to more German Baroque music!

It's good, not one of Bach's best assuming it's his.


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## jdec (Mar 23, 2013)

isorhythm said:


> I don't have an opinion on this one way or another, but if you think ONLY BACH could possibly have written this piece you need to listen to more German Baroque music!
> 
> It's good, not one of Bach's best assuming it's his.


Well, if you know more German baroque music than some of us, then just give us your best guesses on who could possibly have written BWV 565 other than Bach. :tiphat:


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## premont (May 7, 2015)

isorhythm said:


> I don't have an opinion on this one way or another, but if you think ONLY BACH could possibly have written this piece you need to listen to more German Baroque music!


I have heard most of the existing recordings of German Baroque organ music, so more listening would not change my mind.



isorhythm said:


> It's good, not one of Bach's best assuming it's his.


Probably nobody thinks it is one of Bach's best works.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

This is something I found on the wikipedia discussion associated with the piece

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:...ve_1#This_could_not_be_written_by_anyone_else.



> Musicologist Peter Williams outlined a number of unusual stylistic anomolies present in BWV 565. These included a series of unique and rare techniques which were not commonly used in Bach's time period, including the following:
> 
> Parralel octaves throughout the opening
> True subdominant answers in the fugue
> ...


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## Tristan (Jan 5, 2013)

I don't think I ever realized it was one of Bach's earlier works. 

But you know, it's those "anomalies" that make it so unique and so interesting to me.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

It's rather poetic that the one popular Bach organ piece, the iconic Bach organ piece, has a disputable/disputed attribution -- like something out of a novel by Umberto Eco. I think we should all shut up about it and relish the irony of the situation.


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