# Why Did Haydn Stop Writing Symphonies?



## Triplets (Sep 4, 2014)

I’ve never read a biography of Haydn, and most of my biographical knowledge of him derives from reading notes from lps and CDs. I’ve been listening to a lot of Haydn the last few years, primarily the Sturm und Drang works, because I had previously been unfamiliar with them, and they are marvelous. Yesterday I listened to the Drum Roll and London Symphonies (103&104) for the first time in a while and was just so mesmerized by them that I started wondering why, since he lived another decade or so and continued to Compose, he didn’t produce any thing else in a genre that he absolutely mastered


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## Tallisman (May 7, 2017)

104 not enough for you? :lol:


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## Logos (Nov 3, 2012)

Short answer based on my limited understanding: After writing his final symphonies, Haydn focused on composing his two large Oratorios--_The Creation_ and _The Seasons_. Then his health began to decline, making it difficult to compose large scale works; so that while Haydn lived another decade, more than half of that time was spent enduring serious illnesses.

From Encyclopedia Britannica: _"The Seasons broke my back," Haydn is reported to have said; and indeed, apart from the last two masses of 1801 and 1802, he undertook no more large-scale works. During the last years of his life, he was apparently incapable of further work._


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## Euler (Dec 3, 2017)

Two factors were his reduced attachment to the Esterhaza palace, and his life-changing trips to London.

Haydn's employer Nikolaus I of Esterhazy died in 1790, and the new prince no longer took residence at the Esterhaza palace, instead holidaying there late summers. So Haydn was no longer in charge of his own orchestra, nor expected to regularly compose symphonic and chamber music and operas for his noble patron. His main Esterhazy duty in the late 18th, early 19th century was to compose a mass each year for Princess Maria's name day in September.

In 1791 during his first London trip, Haydn saw an insanely huge performance of Handel's Messiah (some claim 1000 performers!) which blew him away. This was in the aftermath of the centenary celebrations of Handel's birth--his oratorios were performed regularly in England from the mid-1780s, and with rapidly ballooning forces. Haydn was struck not just by the grandeur and visceral power of the music but by the enduring fame Handel was afforded in an adopted land. His impresario Salomon, who lived in England, gave Haydn the libretto of The Creation at the end of his second London trip, so he was all set to channel his full powers into something magnificent and eternal. Those London trips changed Haydn in other ways--he was now rich and flattered by broad adulation.

Following the London symphonies Haydn lived primarily in Vienna and wrote The Creation, The Seasons, the last five piano trios, the Op. 76 & Op. 77 quartets, the trumpet concerto, the six great late masses--a fantastically rich output. After Harmoniemesse (late 1802) he didn't compose much due to ill health.

So essentially he was busy writing other things for about 7 years--primarily sacred music--and was debilitated for a further 7 years.



Tallisman said:


> 104 not enough for you? :lol:


My thoughts exactly! And Haydn wrote even more than 104 symphonies, despite so-called #104 being his last


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## Triplets (Sep 4, 2014)

Tallisman said:


> 104 not enough for you? :lol:


I was waiting to see if someone would say that:lol:
It's just that he quit the genre at the top of his game


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## Triplets (Sep 4, 2014)

Thanks, Euler and Logos, you’v broadened my knowledge quite a bit


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## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

Many think it was the culmination of his symphonic output. He was also paid a lot for it, and may have felt he had nothing more to say.


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

I’ll just add that I love his symphonies.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

As others have put it so well, he was old and ill. The two oratorios where a mammoth undertaking, and Haydn said The Seasons gave him the finishing blow. I read about a touching anecdote about the aged Haydn who became ill during a performance of his music. His former pupil, the young Beethoven, helped him out of the hall to his carriage.

Haydn's late pieces, even the London symphonies alone, are amongst the most innovative in Western music. Along with late Mozart he anticipated in embryonic form so many innovations to follow, not the least Beethoven's. He was the most widely respected living composer at the time. His reputation took a bit of a dip during the 19th century but was ripe for revival in the 20th, particularly with renewed interest on the period during the time Neo-Classicism came into vogue (but Baroque composers like Bach benefited from that also). The old wig was again seen as hip, in more ways than one.


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## Eusebius12 (Mar 22, 2010)

Boredom.

Did Beethoven quit writing symphonies at the top of his game? Perhaps he did, he just wasn't as preoccupied with writing them as Haydn seems to have been. Haydn was incidentally 'plagued' with composition, themes would intrude into his mind regardless of his nominal activity. Beethoven did leave some sketches for a 10th symphony.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Prince Lobkowitz commissioned a set of six string quartets from Haydn. About the same time he commissioned a similar set from Beethoven.

Haydn composed only two of his six, published as Op. 77. A bit later he tried for a third, but could only manage two movements (his Op. 103). This is generally seen as a sign of his advancing debility.

Beethoven, meanwhile, completed all six, his Op. 18.

Near the end of his creative life, Haydn wrote in 1802: “Often, … when my powers both of body and mind were failing and I felt it a hard matter to persevere … a secret feeling within me whispered, ‘There are but few contented and happy men here below; everywhere grief and care prevail; perhaps your labors may one day be the source from which the weary and worn … may derive a few moments' rest and refreshment.’ What a powerful motive for pressing onward!”


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## Clairvoyance Enough (Jul 25, 2014)

I wish I could swear by all 104 symphonies like some other of his fanboys, but my taste in Haydn is similar to my taste in Handel in that I enjoy about 10 or 20 percent of his work several magnitudes more than the other 80 or 90 percent. I've been spent on Beethoven and Mozart for several years now, but I've been listening to Haydn just as long and I'm still not even a little bit tired of his op. 76 or London set. 

Sometimes Haydn hits this sweet spot where he's just as rowdy and exciting as Beethoven rhythmically but without being so long-winded, but also as melodic as Mozart but with a more fluid sense of forward motion and development beyond the exposition, and the older he got the more often he hit this spot for me. If we could alter history I would be just as excited to hear an extra 10 years of restored-health mature Haydn as full-life Mozart. Or if someone discovered a secret set of scores in his basement called "The Mature Sturm and Drang Symphonies." *drooling*


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## Triplets (Sep 4, 2014)

Sid James said:


> As others have put it so well, he was old and ill. The two oratorios where a mammoth undertaking, and Haydn said The Seasons gave him the finishing blow. I read about a touching anecdote about the aged Haydn who became ill during a performance of his music. His former pupil, the young Beethoven, helped him out of the hall to his carriage.
> 
> Haydn's late pieces, even the London symphonies alone, are amongst the most innovative in Western music. Along with late Mozart he anticipated in embryonic form so many innovations to follow, not the least Beethoven's. He was the most widely respected living composer at the time. His reputation took a bit of a dip during the 19th century but was ripe for revival in the 20th, particularly with renewed interest on the period during the time Neo-Classicism came into vogue (but Baroque composers like Bach benefited from that also). The old wig was again seen as hip, in more ways than one.


I agree with everything here. I do think that Haydn's best mediums to work in were Symphonies, Quartets, and Oratorios. Mozart was much ahead of him in Opera and Concertos and other forms of Chamber Music, such as Piano Trios and works with wind Instruments and Strings. Beethoven seemed equally adept at any genre that he tried. Any thoughts on way Haydn didn't hit the same creative peaks in Concertos or Operas that he did elsewhere?


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## Haydn70 (Jan 8, 2017)

Triplets said:


> I agree with everything here. I do think that Haydn's best mediums to work in were Symphonies, Quartets, and Oratorios. Mozart was much ahead of him in Opera and Concertos and other forms of Chamber Music, such as Piano Trios and works with wind Instruments and Strings. Beethoven seemed equally adept at any genre that he tried. Any thoughts on way Haydn didn't hit the same creative peaks in Concertos or Operas that he did elsewhere?


Haydn composed three concertos that are indisputably masterpieces which can stand next to any concerto of Mozart: the two cello concertos and the trumpet concerto.


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## Triplets (Sep 4, 2014)

ArsMusica said:


> Haydn composed three concertos that are indisputably masterpieces which can stand next to any concerto of Mozart: the two cello concertos and the trumpet concerto.


 Those are great pieces, but if I had to line them up against the best Mozart Concertos, such as the PC K.466, I find them just a notch below. Ymmv. I was thinking more of Haydn's Piano and Violin Concertos, which, while pleasant enough, don't span the heights that Haydn attained elsewhere, nor do they much to push the boundaries of their respective forms, which compared to the groundbreaking manner that Haydn had with the Symphony and the Quartet.


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## Logos (Nov 3, 2012)

Triplets said:


> Beethoven seemed equally adept at any genre that he tried.


What about Beethoven's awkward struggles with his single opera (Fidelio), and his often unnatural vocal writing? Cherubini, whom Beethoven greatly respected, went so far as to send him a textbook on how to write for voices. I can't think of any composer besides Mozart who so completely mastered all the major genres of composition.


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## GraemeG (Jun 30, 2009)

Well, once _Eroica_ was in the public domain, what was Haydn going to do? I don't know if Haydn ever heard (or saw the score), but in the absence of a specific commission, why would he then write another symphony?
Graeme


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Haydn wrote his last music two or three years before the Eroica premièred. He was out of the game by that time.

BTW there's no evidence he ever heard the symphony, the scene in that movie notwithstanding.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

Triplets said:


> I agree with everything here. I do think that Haydn's best mediums to work in were Symphonies, Quartets, and Oratorios. Mozart was much ahead of him in Opera and Concertos and other forms of Chamber Music, such as Piano Trios and works with wind Instruments and Strings. Beethoven seemed equally adept at any genre that he tried. Any thoughts on way Haydn didn't hit the same creative peaks in Concertos or Operas that he did elsewhere?


Haydn said that he would give up writing piano concertos, having heard Mozart's works in that genre. I like Piano Concerto in D (also often played on harpsichord) but I think Mozart's do go way beyond what Haydn had there. Haydn's cello concertos though are widely considered amongst the best for the instrument before those by Schumann, Dvorak, Saint-Saens and so on. The second cello concerto is by consensus only attributed to him, albeit strongly so.

I think that Haydn's piano trios are excellent, although I am not experienced with Mozart's to make any comparisons. Same with opera although its hard to questions Mozart's genius there. It may be that Haydn merely composed opera to fulfil his duties as Eszterhaza, and not been too passionate about it as Mozart obviously was (although I am guessing here). I would say that having left Eszterhaza he continued to put his best efforts into the symphonies, so it may be that this was his real passion. Undoubtedly it was also a pragmatic decision, since the two London sets where specifically composed for his travels there, which was the equivalent of a concert tour today.

In his autobiography, Antal Dorati said that when he went over the scores of all Haydn's symphonies, there wasn't a single one which didn't have some feature that was highly creative or innovative for the time. I think the consensus is the same regarding his string quartets.



GraemeG said:


> Well, once _Eroica_ was in the public domain, what was Haydn going to do? I don't know if Haydn ever heard (or saw the score), but in the absence of a specific commission, why would he then write another symphony?
> Graeme


He did hear either one or both of Beethoven's first two symphonies (I can't remember) and didn't like what he heard. It seems that even early Beethoven pushed Haydn's boundaries, but at the same time he acknowledged him as his best student.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

I also had heard that Mozart's piano concertos prompted Haydn to write other types of works. Perhaps by coincidence, his three most highly-regarded concertos, one for trumpet and two for cello, are in genres where Mozart left us no examples. However, the Kochel listing does show a trumpet concerto, now lost. I doubt Haydn even knew about that.


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## Triplets (Sep 4, 2014)

Logos said:


> What about Beethoven's awkward struggles with his single opera (Fidelio), and his often unnatural vocal writing? Cherubini, whom Beethoven greatly respected, went so far as to send him a textbook on how to write for voices. I can't think of any composer besides Mozart who so completely mastered all the major genres of composition.


Beethoven struggled with other forms as well, such as Quartets, but he came to master them. Fidelio is vintage Beethoven, if not his best champagne. He is one of the few Composers to have a presence in both the Concert Hall and the Opera House


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## Eusebius12 (Mar 22, 2010)

Logos said:


> I can't think of any composer besides Mozart who so completely mastered all the major genres of composition.


Bach. Given that his passions are more or less religious operas. Also Beethoven's operatic writing is non-conventional, but still far greater than the bel canto Italians. Cherubini was in any case a rather narrow mind (some of whose musical creations are still worth listening to. I do admire his choral works. His instrumental works, less so. Too conventional for my taste. Here is where the rule book perhaps stymies the creative art).


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## Eusebius12 (Mar 22, 2010)

Triplets said:


> I agree with everything here. I do think that Haydn's best mediums to work in


I had no idea he was interested in the occult


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## Eusebius12 (Mar 22, 2010)

ArsMusica said:


> Haydn composed three concertos that are indisputably masterpieces which can stand next to any concerto of Mozart: the two cello concertos and the trumpet concerto.


Well, if I dispute it is it still indisputable? These works of Haydn are very good, but not of the depth and grandeur of Mozart's piano concertos #23,24,25 or the clarinet concerto. They are really middle of the road Mozart to be honest. This is not even a criticism of them (this is in fact high praise)


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## Eusebius12 (Mar 22, 2010)

Sid James said:


> I think that Haydn's piano trios are excellent, although I am not experienced with Mozart's to make any comparisons. Same with opera although its hard to questions Mozart's genius there.


Mozart's piano trios are genius works. Haydn's are sometimes rudimentary, although as with all his work he will produce a really high quality movement to spice some more workmanlike stuff. Also there is a lot of doubling of parts for the poor cello. Haydn's operas are more than worth hearing. They are in no way inferior to the general quality of his oeuvre.


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## Triplets (Sep 4, 2014)

Eusebius12 said:


> Mozart's piano trios are genius works. Haydn's are sometimes rudimentary, although as with all his work he will produce a really high quality movement to spice some more workmanlike stuff. Also there is a lot of doubling of parts for the poor cello. Haydn's operas are more than worth hearing. They are in no way inferior to the general quality of his oeuvre.


Haydn's Piano Trios are essentially Violin and Piano Sonatas. The cello does nothing more than reinforce the bass line of the keyboard. Mozart gave independent lines to the Cello.


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## Eusebius12 (Mar 22, 2010)

Triplets said:


> Haydn's Piano Trios are essentially Violin and Piano Sonatas. The cello does nothing more than reinforce the bass line of the keyboard. Mozart gave independent lines to the Cello.


Yes I believed that that was so, but I haven't examined all of them so I didn't speak in complete generalities. The cello parts in these works are frankly discouraging and probably optional without loss.


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## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

In a way I'm glad Haydn didn't write any more symphonies - as he was reaching the end of the road it perhaps seemed more fitting that what energy and inspiration he had left should be mostly devoted to liturgical music, especially as these were uncertain times when Austria was often embroiled in conflict with France. And he didn't disappoint - collectively those final six masses and two oratorios are a tremendous achievement.


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

Logos said:


> What about Beethoven's awkward struggles with his single opera (Fidelio), and his often unnatural vocal writing? Cherubini, whom Beethoven greatly respected, went so far as to send him a textbook on how to write for voices. *I can't think of any composer besides Mozart who so completely mastered all the major genres of composition.*


Serge Prokofiev, Dmitri Shostakovich.


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## Euler (Dec 3, 2017)

Eusebius12 said:


> Yes I believed that that was so, but I haven't examined all of them so I didn't speak in complete generalities. The cello parts in these works are frankly discouraging and probably optional without loss.


Yup, Nikolaus II commissioned a sonata in 1803 when Haydn was frail and he simply sent the Jacob's Dream trio score without the cello part. The cello was partly boosting the fortepiano's weak bass and is less 'necessary' with modern pianos...nonetheless the texture gains a lot with three instruments I think. And the cello _is_ allowed occasional independence.
Anyhoo, how do you rate Haydn's piano trios compared to his sonatas? Some of the later trios are gorgeous and quite sophisticated IMO.


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## Eusebius12 (Mar 22, 2010)

Euler said:


> Yup, Nikolaus II commissioned a sonata in 1803 when Haydn was frail and he simply sent the Jacob's Dream trio score without the cello part. The cello was partly boosting the fortepiano's weak bass and is less 'necessary' with modern pianos...nonetheless the texture gains a lot with three instruments I think. And the cello _is_ allowed occasional independence.
> Anyhoo, how do you rate Haydn's piano trios compared to his sonatas? Some of the later trios are gorgeous and quite sophisticated IMO.


There are many fine trios, but I never studied them like I have the sonatas. Musically they are interesting as with all Haydn's work. Mozart's are underperformed for some reason, they are more consistent than Haydn's, but then Haydn's cover more ground stylistically. Haydn was always receptive to new ideas and willing to expand his style, which says a lot about the man. I've heard the trio that ends with the gypsy rondo (bit lazy at the moment  ) quite often, but as you say some of the later trios are superior.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

I enjoy Haydn's trios and have the lot of them. Heard the Gypsy Rondo trio in the car today, on the radio! Turned it on during the slow movement, which I couldn't place. When the finale began, it was clear enough.


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## larold (Jul 20, 2017)

_ Did Beethoven quit writing symphonies at the top of his game? Perhaps he did, he just wasn't as preoccupied with writing them as Haydn seems to have been. _

Haydn wrote music for his employer at Esterhazy as a condition of employment. Three were regular concerts at the palace and Haydn was expected tp compose new music for them.

He often wrote a new symphony every week some seasons -- similar to the way J.S. Bach wrote a new cantata every week for church performance. They did this not so much out of inspiration as perspiration and a way to make a living.

Until the end of Haydn's life, when the government gave him a lifetime annuity, he traveled to London and wrote the final 12 symphonies and the great oratorios, he was a workhorse composer. His life was the opposite of Beethoven, who usually had rich benefactors paying for him to compose with no performance requirements like Haydn had.

Haydn was one of the last great composers in the old system where the composer was the slave to royalty. Beethoven bucked this trend, essentially abolished it. In the 19th century composers either worked for commissions or were poor. In the 20th century they mainly worked for universities or conservatories.


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## Euler (Dec 3, 2017)

larold said:


> He often wrote a new symphony every week some seasons -- similar to the way J.S. Bach wrote a new cantata every week for church performance.


Haydn never wrote more than 6 symphonies in a calendar year. His most onerous duty at Esterhaza involved staging hundreds of operas, writing his own and composing background music for stage plays. The demand for instrumental music centred around Nikolaus's baryton fetish. Haydn wrote 126 baryton trios and sometimes produced 4 sets of 6 in a single year. Their workmanlike nature is very much at odds with the fecundity of mind heard in the symphonies.



larold said:


> His life was the opposite of Beethoven, who usually had rich benefactors paying for him to compose with no performance requirements like Haydn had.
> 
> Haydn was one of the last great composers in the old system where the composer was the slave to royalty. Beethoven bucked this trend, essentially abolished it.


After 1779, Nikolaus allowed Haydn to publish his compositions, and Haydn was famous enough to command a decent fee. His letters depict a hustling businessman who often sold the same piece to several publishers.


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## DuncanW (Aug 19, 2018)

Possibly covered elsewhere, but did anyone write more symphonies than Haydn?


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

DuncanW said:


> Possibly covered elsewhere, but did anyone write more symphonies than Haydn?


Leif Segerstam, a well-known conductor, has written 319 symphonies as of April 2018.


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## Eusebius12 (Mar 22, 2010)

Johann Melchior Molter appears to have written 'over 140'


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## Guest (Aug 29, 2018)

larold said:


> _ Did Beethoven quit writing symphonies at the top of his game? Perhaps he did, he just wasn't as preoccupied with writing them as Haydn seems to have been. _
> 
> *Haydn wrote music for his employer at Esterhazy as a condition of employment*. Three were regular concerts at the palace and Haydn was expected tp compose new music for them.
> 
> ...


Well, obviously, he wrote music as a condition of employment - it's what he was employed to do.

The oratorios were not written in London.


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## EddieRUKiddingVarese (Jan 8, 2013)

He ran out of Quills......................


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## Eusebius12 (Mar 22, 2010)

KenOC said:


> Leif Segerstam, a well-known conductor, has written 319 symphonies as of April 2018.


Were any of them any good


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Haydn??? 104 symphonies is more than Godunov for me!!!


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## Eusebius12 (Mar 22, 2010)

Can't you handel such a long liszt? Apparently there's a few still haydn out there. He really piston Mozart, although William Grant Still had the advantage of being somewhat blacher. To be franck, I've made a meale out of this.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Meanwhile, there are a few fine Bachs Sets of the measly 104 symphonies.

An Amazon output, in my opiñion!!!


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## Tallisman (May 7, 2017)

Busy writing his masterpieces: The Creation and the Seasons. And thank God he was.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Haydn wrote the London symphonies on lucrative commission. He most likely was never offered a great motivation like that ever again to compose a new set of symphonies.


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