# Games and polls, why on earth?



## Kjetil Heggelund (Jan 4, 2016)

Is it possible to talk about music without comparing and judging?


----------



## Ethereality (Apr 6, 2019)

No. Okay that settles that. I dislike all these polls too, that's why there's such a thing as making other forums, but I don't feel it's our responsibility to monitor what threads get posted, but to simply click the forums you want to read. I imagine it's not hard to build a good recommendation algorithm with highlighted threads, maybe if you worked for Nokia or something, or to reinstate groups on the main page.

Why people like to judge music, perhaps it's one way to find similar aural perspectives to converse with in this musical desert! Or rather, we can keep track of pieces we want to return to or invest resources in. Not all music is created for everyone equally, and not all communication is words.

I personally make a poll when really wanting to gauge some information about something meaningful and its fan differences. I believe polls can be very important on the main forum but never excessively, nevertheless, I simply don't have to click them. Unless Beethoven is here then we don't need a dictator guiding us to proper discussion and truth (sarcasm.)


----------



## Chilham (Jun 18, 2020)

This thread should be a poll.


----------



## Ethereality (Apr 6, 2019)

Don't you think perhaps a poll is in order first? to really know if this thread should be a poll.


----------



## Kjetil Heggelund (Jan 4, 2016)

Wowie! That sucks.


----------



## Scherzi Cat (8 mo ago)

The Polls are popular, people like to participate in them. Polls are a good conversations starter. They give people a reason to listen to pieces that they may not have heard before, or have not listened to in a long while. They allow people to express their own opinion of something without participating in a verbal sense if they don't want to. I like the polls. Especially those by HansZimmer and Xisten267.


----------



## Kjetil Heggelund (Jan 4, 2016)

I usually steer clear of polls and games, so that fails if we are to be included all.


----------



## Scherzi Cat (8 mo ago)

Kjetil Heggelund said:


> I usually steer clear of polls and games, so that fails if we are to be included all.


i didn't say ALL people like to participate in them. But many people do. In the words of the great Ricky Nelson, "You can't please everyone, so you got to please yourself."


----------



## allaroundmusicenthusiast (Jun 3, 2020)

As someone who participates in most games, because they are harmless fun? I don't see nothing wrong with them, it's not like the results of the games are used for anything, and all kinds of threads can live together, so I don't really see what's the matter.


----------



## Kjetil Heggelund (Jan 4, 2016)

Scherzi Cat said:


> i didn't say ALL people like to participate in them. But many people do. In the words of the great Ricky Nelson, "You can't please everyone, so you got to please yourself."


Games and polls are overshadowing all other threads here. I can only suck it up in ideas for stupid threads.


----------



## Scherzi Cat (8 mo ago)

Democracy and community thrive together. I believe the polls are good for the overall membership of the forum. The polls were taken out of the general classical music discussion section and exiled to a section of their own a few years ago. They are back. I suspect for good reason. I actually lost interest in the forum during that period. You can judge that in any way that you like. I like the polls and I'm sure I have lots of company.


----------



## Xisten267 (Sep 2, 2018)

I think that polls and games (and also lists) are harmless, fun to participate and that they can be useful tools of musical exploration. I've learned a lot from participating of them. Also, in my opinion they provide interesting data about the preferences of TC members. I don't see why they shouldn't be done.


----------



## Taggart (Feb 14, 2013)

Kjetil Heggelund said:


> Games and polls are overshadowing all other threads here. I can only suck it up in ideas for stupid threads.


This is partly a result of the new software. On the old system, it was possible to filter new posts much more easily. Now you can filter by followed content and then save the filter in new posts











So, go through the site and follow the forums you like. This also brings them to the top of the forum list. Now check the new posts and add the filter. The games should be gone. Now save as default.

Hopefully, this should work.


----------



## SuperTonic (Jun 3, 2010)

Is it really that difficult to just ignore the threads you're not interested in? No one is making you click on them.


----------



## Taggart (Feb 14, 2013)

SuperTonic said:


> Is it really that difficult to just ignore the threads you're not interested in? No one is making you click on them.


It clutters up the new listings when you get four pages of new, and nearly three of them are polls / games. Far easier to filter and get just over a page all of which might be relevant to your interests.


----------



## fluteman (Dec 7, 2015)

Kjetil Heggelund said:


> Is it possible to talk about music without comparing and judging?


I sympathize with your frustration over this, but at least in America, it reflects the structure and marketing methods of the music industry, especially the popular music industry, where rankings and statistics are dominant factors in what gets produced, recorded, downloaded and sold.

Remember that Talk Classical is a for-profit site that is more profitable when it draws more traffic. The ranking and games make classical music more comfortable and less intimidating for listeners who are used to popular music, where ranking and statistics are fundamental parts of the scene and have been for a long time. That in turn makes these listeners more willing to join and post here.

True, some listeners are misled by all the ranking and statistics and attach more significance to them than they deserve. Remember the old saying: There are lies, [email protected] lies, and statistics. The great classical works have earned their status by becoming so permanently embedded in our culture and art that their influence is hard to avoid, even in provocative efforts to reject it. This is hard to capture accurately in simple statistics. But again, it's hard to argue with boosting the traffic that keeps this site afloat.


----------



## SuperTonic (Jun 3, 2010)

Taggart said:


> It clutters up the new listings when you get four pages of new, and nearly three of them are polls / games. Far easier to filter and get just over a page all of which might be relevant to your interests.


When I go to the new listings page there are generally only a handful of threads I'm actually interested in reading anyway. Sometimes there aren't any, in which case I'll do something else and check again later. I've never considered this a problem.


----------



## Kjetil Heggelund (Jan 4, 2016)

Hey! I made a thread that is something other than games and polls 😇 but of course there had to come some comparing and judging...Hakuna matata 🥰


----------



## Neo Romanza (May 7, 2013)

I personally don't care anything about the game threads and my own involvement would be a waste of time since I'm not in the right frame of mind to keep up with them. I don't think there's anything wrong with them and if many members here have the stamina that's required in order to play them, then go for it. I'm not in any position in telling someone how they spend their time on this forum (and elsewhere).

A simple solution is to just ignore the threads and post in the threads that are of interest to you. If you had a serious complaint, then you wouldn't have made a thread about it and, instead, would've contacted one of the moderators and if a solution couldn't be resolved there, then take it up with the site owner. Honestly, I don't see the games going anywhere considering they're high volume foot traffic for the site and one or two complaints isn't going to change the outcome which is there are many members who enjoy participating in these kinds of threads.


----------



## Animal the Drummer (Nov 14, 2015)

I don't go for the games myself, though I do take part in some of the polls, but IMO both have a place here as long as there are posters who derive enjoyment from them. Why else do any of us come here anyway?


----------



## Doublestring (Sep 3, 2014)

The only thing worse than poll threads are non-poll threads.


----------



## RobertJTh (Sep 19, 2021)

I only participate in those games to upvote dead krauts and make sure Dutilleux doesn't win everything.


----------



## golfer72 (Jan 27, 2018)

Some polls I'm interested in. Some I'm not. I dont click on those. Saying that they clog up the forum and it takes too long to wade through them doesnt make sense to me


----------



## Artran (Sep 16, 2016)

Kjetil Heggelund said:


> Is it possible to talk about music without comparing and judging?


It's very difficult. Even my 4 years old daughter tells me that she likes one song more than the other one. Judgement is part of human reasoning. Comparing and judging also lead to deeper understanding.

Now, polls are good as recommendation. If you don't know a composer you can be overwhelmed by his body of work. Polls can help people to navigate to the most consensually acclaimed works (which is no dogma, only a starting point).

Regarding games I can only speak for myself but for me it's an opportunity to discover new works and composers and to think more about music I'm listening. I also try to promote contemporary, renaissance and early baroque composers which are unjustly ignored.


----------



## Monsalvat (11 mo ago)

I don't personally care at all for the games, since there's no discussion involved. Polls (and the opera contests) do tend to generate good discussion. I learn a lot by listening to different recordings and trying to compare them in my head. It's useful for me to have some heuristics in mind when evaluating a recording. Without delving into specific examples, there are some recordings I keep in mind as benchmarks because they exemplify a particular trait, style, or characteristic of the music or interpretation, and learning from these helps me look for them in other recordings. When I post in the Current Listening thread, I often try to write down my thoughts about the recording, and whether I compare it to other recordings or not, they are usually somewhere in the back of my mind as I write my review. (The Current Listening thread itself has generated some controversy on this forum because, like the games, some don't believe it contributes to actual discussion; that is one reason I try to add a little more than just album covers to my posts there.)

It's natural to compare recordings. It doesn't always have to be binary "X is better than Y"; a more nuanced view on two good recordings might be "X focuses on the lyricism, while Y is more rhythmically driven" or "X generates a certain intensity, which Y's clearer, more precise recording lacks." Using Y as a benchmark helps to understand X, and also helps to articulate the differences between them. I don't actually partake in the polls either but I'm sympathetic to them because the thread attached to the poll is often a good source for discussion. Also there can be some good recommendations in those threads! 

I'm talking mostly about comparing recordings of the same work. Comparing different works to each other (irrespective of recordings) is another matter.


----------



## HerbertNorman (Jan 9, 2020)

I used to take part in the games more intensively, but I came to the conclusion that there is no point as the participants are mostly the same and their taste will dominate the outcome... I don't have the time to do them anymore either.
As for polls I think they can generate a decent discussion and I have found myself listening to a few pieces because of them being recommended by other members , whereas I hadn't listened to the pieces for some while.
I feel @Kjetil Heggelund when he indicates that he doesn't see a point to them as they only seem to serve as a judgement or a comparison of who likes what the best ... 
I am on here because I like to be involved in a forum of people who share a passion for music with me . I try not to judge them , at least not publicly on the forum. I have my opinions about the pieces that get talked about over and over and over again , but for which I do not share the same enthousiasm... Yet is my judgement going to change this feeling or make it go away ? I don't think so. It is more interesting for me to get to know why these people find this piece so enthralling and I don't. 
I listened to a symphony I couldn't get my head around for the umpteenth time a few weeks ago , conclusion: my taste must differ from some people in the TC community ... but is there anything wrong about that??? I don't think so


----------



## fluteman (Dec 7, 2015)

Monsalvat said:


> I don't personally care at all for the games, since there's no discussion involved. Polls (and the opera contests) do tend to generate good discussion. I learn a lot by listening to different recordings and trying to compare them in my head. It's useful for me to have some heuristics in mind when evaluating a recording. Without delving into specific examples, there are some recordings I keep in mind as benchmarks because they exemplify a particular trait, style, or characteristic of the music or interpretation, and learning from these helps me look for them in other recordings. When I post in the Current Listening thread, I often try to write down my thoughts about the recording, and whether I compare it to other recordings or not, they are usually somewhere in the back of my mind as I write my review. (The Current Listening thread itself has generated some controversy on this forum because, like the games, some don't believe it contributes to actual discussion; that is one reason I try to add a little more than just album covers to my posts there.)
> 
> It's natural to compare recordings. It doesn't always have to be binary "X is better than Y"; a more nuanced view on two good recordings might be "X focuses on the lyricism, while Y is more rhythmically driven" or "X generates a certain intensity, which Y's clearer, more precise recording lacks." Using Y as a benchmark helps to understand X, and also helps to articulate the differences between them. I don't actually partake in the polls either but I'm sympathetic to them because the thread attached to the poll is often a good source for discussion. Also there can be some good recommendations in those threads!
> 
> I'm talking mostly about comparing recordings of the same work. Comparing different works to each other (irrespective of recordings) is another matter.


Well said. A simple "I like X" at least may serve as a recommendation of something others may have been unaware of, whereas "I dislike Y" lacks even that benefit. I always try to back up anything I post about with at least a short explanation of why it's noteworthy, at least in my opinion. That is what is lacking in games and polls without discussion, and a major reason I don't participate in them.


----------



## wormcycle (Oct 14, 2020)

The games and polls is the reason why this forum is now entirely irrelevant


----------



## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

wormcycle said:


> The games and polls is the reason why this forum is now entirely irrelevant


That doesn't sound reasonable to me. There's a large diversity of thread themes here on TC, and all you have to do is click on the threads that interest you. If none interest you, you can always start your own threads.


----------



## Ravn (Jan 6, 2020)

IMO the game section is the best part of TC, and I believe I'm far from the only one feeling it that way. The games are a superb way of discovering new music, and especially when you have done a few games and start recognizing other members whose taste coincides with yours, it is easy to find new works by composers you have never heard of.


----------



## Neo Romanza (May 7, 2013)

wormcycle said:


> The games and polls is the reason why this forum is now entirely irrelevant


And yet you felt compelled to make this post? Talk Classical isn't irrelevant. Look at the number of members. Look at the forum's general statistics. The numbers speak for themselves. I was a long-time member of another forum and _that_ forum became irrelevant to me for several reasons, but one of the main ones was the dwindling membership. I used to be of the belief that less members would make everything easier to converse with others and get to know them, but now I've come to realization that this isn't the case at all. The more membership a forum has, the more it will flourish. If the games/polls bring new membership into the fold, then I'm for it. The more, the merrier.

There are a plethora of topics found on TC. Do a search in the site's archives (if it's a topic that hasn't been posted about in awhile) and make a contribution. With only 39 posts at this moment, I have to say the only way to get truly involved is by getting your hands dirty and getting out there by participating in the ongoing threads. We don't know what you're interested in or who your favorite composers are, so go over the 'Composer Guestbook' section of the forum and talk about one of your favorite composers and tell us why he's one of your favorites. Anyway, this is just an idea, but my point, more or less, is that I'd rather see you talk about about something that you have an enthusiasm for rather than pointing your finger at what you feel is hurting this forum, because telling us the forum is irrelevant isn't going to win you any favors, especially, again, if you look this forum's current statistics.


----------

