# Greatest “single” piece of music?



## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

An amusement: What’s the greatest “single” piece of music ever written? Must be one movement or equivalent – no multi-movement symphonies, concertos, suites, or whatever. WTC, Chopin’s Etudes, and the like are out. One movement of a larger piece is OK.

I know what my answer is. What’s yours?


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## DaveM (Jun 29, 2015)

KenOC said:


> An amusement: What's the greatest "single" piece of music ever written? Must be one movement or equivalent - no multi-movement symphonies, concertos, suites, or whatever. WTC, Chopin's Etudes, and the like are out. One movement of a larger piece is OK.
> 
> I know what my answer is. What's yours?


No fair asking such a profound question after 9pm when my brain ceases to function. However, though I may change my mind in the future, I usually return to Beethoven to answer questions like this. At the moment, my answer is the Piano Sonata #32 Arietta.

(Btw, according to some posts in a current thread, there is no such thing as 'the greatest'. )

Edit: Sorry for picking your answer


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## senza sordino (Oct 20, 2013)

Bach Chaconne for solo violin in Dm

(This thread is now closed)


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## Jacck (Dec 24, 2017)

this question is impossible to answer in any serious manner, since I find myself unable to compare the greatest works and what I consider greatest changes in time. I would go with Bach at the moment, been listening to many of his organ works and I would go with one of those - *Toccata and Fugue in D minor*, *Passacaglia and Fugue in C minor*, *Fantasia and Fugue in G minor*, *Toccata, Adagio & Fugue in C Major* etc or *Die Grosse Fugue by Beethoven*. Other choices I could consider would be *The Daybreak from Daphne and Chloe by Ravel* or some *movement from Beethoven symphonies* or *Wagner - Ride of the Valkyries*.


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

Interesting question, because when I think of it, most of my favourite works (which I consider "greatest") are all multi-movement compositions. Fortunately, I found one:

Barber: Knoxville summer of 1915


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## SONNET CLV (May 31, 2014)

KenOC said:


> An amusement: What's the greatest "single" piece of music ever written? Must be one movement or equivalent - no multi-movement symphonies, concertos, suites, or whatever. WTC, Chopin's Etudes, and the like are out. One movement of a larger piece is OK.
> 
> I know what my answer is. What's yours?


Well, we're certainly in agreement about one thing. I know what my answer is, too!


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## Gallus (Feb 8, 2018)

K.231 of course.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Gallus said:


> K.231 of course.


I will take your suggestion as being a jest.


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## Prat (Jun 15, 2018)

Gallus said:


> K.231 of course.


This is good

Prat


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## beetzart (Dec 30, 2009)

I can't see beyond Bach's chaconne either, but Nimrod is a damn fine piece of music for a close 2nd place.


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## joen_cph (Jan 17, 2010)

There are many modern concertos to choose from too. One of them would probably be my candidate then, based on the rule of one movement only.


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## steph01 (Dec 21, 2016)

Moteverdi's 1610 Vespers


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## Guest (Jun 15, 2018)

It hasn't been composed yet. When it has, I think we will all know what it is.


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## joen_cph (Jan 17, 2010)

steph01 said:


> Moteverdi's 1610 Vespers


But it definitely has several movements ...


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## Eva Yojimbo (Jan 30, 2016)

My top 5 would probably be:

-Wagner's Liebestod (though I wonder how much of its effect is tied to the overture and unresolved motif)
-Mozart's Jupiter Finale
-Mahler's 2nd Symphony Finale
-Beethoven's Heiliger Dankgesang... from String Quartet 15
-Mozart's Commendatore Scene

These all happen to be movements that never fail to move me to tears and/or give me full-body chills. Choosing between them would be like choosing between my fingers. 

Honorable mentions: 

-Mozart's Clarinet Concerto - Adagio
-Mozart's Piano Concerto 23 - Adagio
-Beethoven's Grosse Fugue
-Beethoven's Hammerklavier Sonata - Adagio sostenuto
-Schubert's 21st Piano Sonata - Molto Moderato (or Andante sostenuto for that matter)
-Bach's Passacaglia and Fugue in C minor
-Brahms 4th Symphony Finale


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

For me it needs to be something that is meant to be played on its own as a complete work so it can be a part of a set but not - not for me at any rate - part of a whole work. I therefore need to nominate a big work with only one movement - Sibelius 7 would do quite well - or to choose something of a miniature. Perhaps something like Chopin's 4th Ballade In F Minor (Op.52) or his 8th Nocturne in D flat (Op.27 No.2) or one of the Scherzos (probably the first)? Or how about Ravel's Tzigane?

I'm not there yet. This might take me a while if I am to come up with a candidate for the greatest piece of music!


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## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

Remember that space satellite, Pioneer, from 40 years ago? They put a golden record on it with a lot of music. Hope they chose the best.


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## Eva Yojimbo (Jan 30, 2016)

One I can't believe I forgot: Liszt's Sonata in Bm -- all the better for being a standalone work. I was rather obsessed with it for a time.


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## DaveM (Jun 29, 2015)

mbhaub said:


> Remember that space satellite, Pioneer, from 40 years ago? They put a golden record on it with a lot of music. Hope they chose the best.


If any advanced aliens come across it, they'll likely be saying 'Analog sound from a needle in a vinyl groove? What a primitive species!'


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## MarkW (Feb 16, 2015)

Overture to Figaro.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

To be fair, it has to be 4'33"


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## Ludwig Von Chumpsky (Apr 19, 2018)

Sorry but you guys have all given the wrong answer. The correct answer is Samuel Barber's Adagio for Strings.


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## helenora (Sep 13, 2015)

J.S. Bach Kyrie from Mass


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## Larkenfield (Jun 5, 2017)

mbhaub said:


> Remember that space satellite, Pioneer, from 40 years ago? They put a golden record on it with a lot of music. Hope they chose the best.


The Voyager golden record (excerpts).


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## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

For me the one movement piece is Debussy's Prelude to Afternoon...


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## arpeggio (Oct 4, 2012)

I do not understand that there can be only one.


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## Thomyum2 (Apr 18, 2018)

arpeggio said:


> I do not understand that there can be only one.


Agreed - how could there be? It's sort of like the saying that you can't step into the same river twice. What was great to me last year may not be the same as what is great to me today. Greatness is never the same from moment to moment, and never so narrow that only one could capture it all.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

My initial answer was either Bach’s Chaconne or Beethoven’s Arietta from the Op. 111 sonata. But then I thought, both are essentially theme and variation forms, which are really a bunch of short pieces strung together. So maybe neither really qualifies!

As for Bach’s organ works, most are pretty clearly in two movements, or even three (the Toccata, Adagio and Fugue) or even many more (the Passacaglia and Fugue).


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## Prat (Jun 15, 2018)

For me its Prelude to Afternoon of a sexually aroused Gas Mask


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## Gordontrek (Jun 22, 2012)

mbhaub said:


> Remember that space satellite, Pioneer, from 40 years ago? They put a golden record on it with a lot of music. Hope they chose the best.


I believe that was the Voyager 1 probe. It had on it a piece I would definitely nominate for this, the first movement of Bach's Brandenburg Concerto No. 2. I don't think I've ever heard a more perfect piece of music from any era. Even after I listen to the best music of the 19th and 20th centuries I keep going back to it. It really shows why J.S. Bach was chosen to represent Earth's art music to any potential alien life in the cosmos.

Other pieces I would nominate (and some of these might seem strange choices):
Bach- Badinerie from BWV 1067 
Debussy- Prelude to the Afternoon of a Faun
Beethoven- Symphony 5, first movement
Brahms- Symphony 1, 3rd movement (yes, 3rd)
Mozart- Symphony 40, 1st movement
Strauss- Till Eulenspiegel (probably my most controversial pick, but I have my reasons...)


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## Eva Yojimbo (Jan 30, 2016)

arpeggio said:


> I do not understand that there can be only one.


You'd make a bad Highlander.


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## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

Gordontrek said:


> I believe that was the Voyager 1 probe. It had on it a piece I would definitely nominate for this, the first movement of Bach's Brandenburg Concerto No. 2. I don't think I've ever heard a more perfect piece of music from any era. Even after I listen to the best music of the 19th and 20th centuries I keep going back to it. It really shows why J.S. Bach was chosen to represent Earth's art music to any potential alien life in the cosmos.
> 
> Other pieces I would nominate (and some of these might seem strange choices):
> Bach- Badinerie from BWV 1067
> ...


Yes, Voyager. Thank you for the correction. Of course, hopefully Star Trek The Motion Picture won't come true!


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## st Omer (Sep 23, 2015)

Right now Brahms' intermezzo op 118 no 2.

Here is what I posted several months back on another thread that sums up my feelings about the piece.

<It is almost universally accepted that much of Brahms' music is autumnal. At the age of 67 I am starting to feel a bit autumnal particularly being a great grandfather. One of Brahms' compositions that best captures the autumnal feel is his op. 118 no. 2 Intermezzo. This is probably my favorite piano miniature by anybody. It may be small in terms of length but that piece tells me more about Brahms than his large scale works most of which rank among the best by anybody in my estimation.

When I hear that piece I feel a connection to Brahms. It isn't anything I can explain intellectually and it is more than just an emotional response. I often have emotional responses to pop music I heard over 50 years ago that evoke memories of past events and friendships of youth. I get choked up hearing the pop hit of 1963 "Sukiyaki", but that is a story for another time and place. What I experience with Brahms' intermezzo is much different and much more profound. Perhaps I am feeling a lifetime of my own experiences both good and bad, the disappointments, the small triumphs, time lost, what to do with the time left to me. Maybe that is what Brahms was communicating in the piece. Maybe that is what was communicated to him and then he composed the music. >


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## Room2201974 (Jan 23, 2018)

st Omer said:


> Right now Brahms' intermezzo op 118 no 2.
> 
> Here is what I posted several months back on another thread that sums up my feelings about the piece.
> 
> <It is almost universally accepted that much of Brahms' music is autumnal. At the age of 67 I am starting to feel a bit autumnal particularly being a great grandfather. One of Brahms' compositions that best captures the autumnal feel is his op. 118 no. 2 Intermezzo. This is probably my favorite piano miniature by anybody. It may be small in terms of length but that piece tells me more about Brahms than his large scale works most of which rank among the best by anybody in my estimation.


The close canon in the middle section is some of the most beautiful writing that I know.


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## Judith (Nov 11, 2015)

What about Rachmaninov "Vocalise"? Lovely piece.


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## Doctuses (Jun 11, 2018)

maybe the "forever contemporary" Große Fuge Op. 133 for me.


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## Joe B (Aug 10, 2017)

Art Rock named Barber's "Knoxville: Summer of 1915". I would have picked the same.

But, I'll throw in William Grant Still's "Mother and Child". An absolutely beautiful piece of music:


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## Mozart555 (Jun 17, 2018)

In my opinion the 6th movement of Mahler's 3rd. You can listen to it here at 1:16:54





:


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

THIS!


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## Guest (Jun 18, 2018)

Fritz Kobus said:


> THIS!


This is good, but I don't think it's by any means the most interesting part of the Ring. There are some wonderfully tense moments between characters, important foreshadowing represented musically, highly emotive and evocative music in the first act of Walküre alone, which imo is the best single act that Wagner wrote.

Harry Kupfer's production of Siegfried is one the best looking, though.


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## EddieRUKiddingVarese (Jan 8, 2013)




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## janxharris (May 24, 2010)

senza sordino said:


> Bach Chaconne for solo violin in Dm
> 
> (This thread is now closed)


I'd never heard this piece till this thread and have been playing it over the last few days. It certain has something about it.


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## janxharris (May 24, 2010)

For me, Sibelius's seventh symphony remains a staggering achievement. Interesting that a friend of mine described it as: 'dull...uninspiring'.

De gustibus non est disputandum.


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## DeepR (Apr 13, 2012)

I second Mozart 41 mov. 4, Chopin Ballade 4 and Sibelius 7 and add Scriabin's Poem of Ecstasy.


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## janxharris (May 24, 2010)

DeepR said:


> I second Mozart 41 mov. 4, Chopin Ballade 4 and Sibelius 7 and add Scriabin's Poem of Ecstasy.


Will check out the Chopin and Scriabin.


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## janxharris (May 24, 2010)

I would also add: The Rite of Spring (part I), Also Sprach Zarathustra, Schostakovich's 5th (mvt I) and The Lark Ascending.


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## Clairvoyance Enough (Jul 25, 2014)

To shoot for a semi-objective criteria, I'll just go by the piece I was able to listen to the most times before I got tired of it - the first contrapunctus of The Art of Fugue. It usually takes around 3-4 minutes to play but I find it denser and more inexhaustible than most symphonic movements, even some of my favorites. I've been listening to it regularly for 5+ years and have never stopped finding new moments to fall in love with. 

I was so in love with it at one point that I actually started to understand Glenn Gould's dislike of Mozart and his relative "simplicity". I've never agreed with him on that, but trying to transition from the extremely concentrated counterpoint of Bach to everyone else, not just Mozart, was difficult at first. Everything just sounded so diluted and watery by comparison.


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## Jacck (Dec 24, 2017)

Clairvoyance Enough said:


> I was so in love with it at one point that I actually started to understand Glenn Gould's dislike of Mozart and his relative "simplicity". I've never agreed with him on that, but trying to transition from the extremely concentrated counterpoint of Bach to everyone else, not just Mozart, was difficult at first. Everything just sounded so diluted and watery by comparison.


Bach is Bach. Everyone who came after him sounds diluted, because the art of counterpoint was lost and so the musical complexity. I had a dislike for Mozart too, but it seems that lately I have been finally starting to warm up to his music. But he is no match to Bach. Bach wrote so much fantastic music. And I have not even yet listened to even a fraction of it! (a program for a lifetime). I could pick this as the "greatest" piece


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## janxharris (May 24, 2010)

Jacck said:


> Bach is Bach. Everyone who came after him sounds diluted, because the art of counterpoint was lost and so the musical complexity. I had a dislike for Mozart too, but it seems that lately I have been finally starting to warm up to his music. But he is no match to Bach. Bach wrote so much fantastic music. And I have not even yet listened to even a fraction of it! (a program for a lifetime). I could pick this as the "greatest" piece


Have always loved the Bach Double Violin Concerto.

I strongly disagree with:



> Everyone who came after him sounds diluted, because the art of counterpoint was lost and so the musical complexity.


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## Jacck (Dec 24, 2017)

janxharris said:


> Have always loved the Bach Double Violin Concerto.
> I strongly disagree with: Everyone who came after him sounds diluted, because the art of counterpoint was lost and so the musical complexity


Whenever I listen to some Bach and try to listen to Beethoven afterwards, Beethoven seems simplistic in comparison. Mendelssohn had some fine counterpoint and Hindemith tried it in the 20th century (that is why I like him). Listen for example to the Sherzo of Mendelssohns Octet. Pretty complex stuff too


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## janxharris (May 24, 2010)

Jacck said:


> Whenever I listen to some Bach and try to listen to Beethoven afterwards, Beethoven seems simplistic in comparison. Mendelssohn had some fine counterpoint and Hindemith tried it in the 20th century (that is why I like him). Listen for example to the Sherzo of Mendelssohns Octet. Pretty complex stuff too


The Mendelssohn is very good. Has echoes of Mozart somewhere in there.
Regarding Beethoven - you may be right that he did not include counterpoint of Bachian complexity (though what about the scherzo of 5th sy?), but counterpoint can seem rather academic unless it expresses more than just the notes themselves.

How do respond to the counterpoint Sibelius employs here:


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## Jacck (Dec 24, 2017)

janxharris said:


> but counterpoint can seem rather academic unless it expresses more than just the notes themselves.


it gives the music a feeling of depth. You can follow one melodic line, or the other, and observe how they interact and create harmony. I do not know what is the experience of others with counterpoint, but with me it is like with this cube
https://static1.squarespace.com/sta...5545bf21de6b914ff1/1460674722450/?format=300w
if you watch the cube long enough, you will notice how your perception shifts from convex to concave
Similar with the conterpoint, at one time I perceive one melodic thread, at other time the perception shifts and I perceive another melodic thread and if I give it my full attention, I am sometimes able to perceive all at once. 
Sibelius is great. Do you know that he suffered from synesthesia and his music is a translation of his visual impressions?


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## janxharris (May 24, 2010)

Jacck said:


> it gives the music a feeling of depth. You can follow one melodic line, or the other, and observe how they interact and create harmony. I do not know what is the experience of others with counterpoint, but with me it is like with this cube
> https://static1.squarespace.com/sta...5545bf21de6b914ff1/1460674722450/?format=300w
> if you watch the cube long enough, you will notice how your perception shifts from convex to concave
> Similar with the conterpoint, at one time I perceive one melodic thread, at other time the perception shifts and I perceive another melodic thread and if I give it my full attention, I am sometimes able to perceive all at once.
> Sibelius is great. Do you know that he suffered from synesthesia and his music is a translation of his visual impressions?


I guess it depends on the counterpoint. I get an incredible feeling of grandeur from this:






Excuse the bum notes....


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## Jacck (Dec 24, 2017)

janxharris said:


> I guess it depends on the counterpoint. I get an incredible feeling of grandeur from this:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I like Beethoven too, but for me, the number one guy is Bach. I guess each one of us have their favorites among the holy trinity.


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## isorhythm (Jan 2, 2015)

Tallis' _Spem in alium_. Surprised it hadn't come up yet.

Sticking with single-movement works, other candidates include too many 16th century motets and songs by Schubert to choose from. Lots of good stuff in the twentieth century too including Sibelius' Seventh Symphony, Ligeti's _Clocks and Clouds_ and Reich's _Music for 18 Musicians_.

Mozart's _Ave verum corpus_, Kyrie in D minor, Rondo in A minor and Adagio in B minor are also favorites of mine.


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## Logos (Nov 3, 2012)

In terms of influence, the 1st movement of Beethoven's 9th is probably the most important work in the history of music. 

Sir Donald Tovey: "Of all single works of art, — of all passages in a work of art, the first subject of the first movement of Beethoven's Ninth Symphony has had the deepest and widest influence on later music."

Brahms, Liszt, Berlioz, and Wagner were more influenced by this symphony than any other single work. Almost the whole of 19th century orchestral music lived in its shadow.


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## Judith (Nov 11, 2015)

janxharris said:


> For me, Sibelius's seventh symphony remains a staggering achievement. Interesting that a friend of mine described it as: 'dull...uninspiring'.
> 
> De gustibus non est disputandum.


Sibelius Symphony no 7 has beautiful melodies and definitely not dull.


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## janxharris (May 24, 2010)

Jacck said:


> I like Beethoven too, but for me, the number one guy is Bach. I guess each one of us have their favorites among the holy trinity.


For me the piece is spoilt because of the over familiarity of some of the chord progressions (in many of Vivaldi's works). Even so, I appreciate the suggestion.


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## janxharris (May 24, 2010)

Judith said:


> Sibelius Symphony no 7 has beautiful melodies and definitely not dull.


Indeed - I just thought it worth posting how such a great (imho) work can sound to others. I think it's good to keep oneself grounded even if one thinks a piece is beyond criticism.


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## Judith (Nov 11, 2015)

janxharris said:


> Indeed - I just thought it worth posting how such a great (imho) work can sound to others. I think it's good to keep oneself grounded even if one thinks a piece is beyond criticism.


Only became familiar with it recently as one of my "Twitter" friends kept posting about it and so I became curious


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## Alkan (Jun 30, 2018)

I saw the thread title and immediately decided to vote for Bach's preludes and fugues... only to see my vote ruled out in the very first post. However I do agree with those who mentioned the Chaconne. (I actually prefer to hear the piano treatment as conceived by Busoni.) Also, these are worth consideration:

Brahms Violin Concerto, mvt 1

Chopin Fantasy Fm


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## Tallisman (May 7, 2017)

Adagio from Bruckner's 7th. Almost everything else is a ditty in comparison. It towers far above for me. I'd have trouble doing a top 3, and I'd view it as not a particularly meaningful exercise, but this single top choice is easy.


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## Strange Magic (Sep 14, 2015)

I'm not good at "greatest", but Ravel's _Concerto for the Left Hand_, a one-movement work according to Ravel (or in two "bonded" movements--how strong is the glue?) has always struck me as a "perfect" piece of music--not one false or unnecessary note. The beginning, as some vast musical shape rises up out of the primordial murmuring, is magnificent. It is then followed by a whole series of inspired themes and passages, including a lovely slow "movement", and ends in a thunderous recapitulation. It blew my mind when I first heard it, umpteen years ago, and its effect remains undimmed by time.


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## Fredx2098 (Jun 24, 2018)

One of the reasons I adore Feldman is because most of his works are extremely long, cohesive, deliberate, and usually one single movement without a break, including the 5-6-hour long String Quartet No. 2.

I could give a long list of his pieces that I find extremely moving, but I think the most important to me are Piano, Violin, Viola, Cello and For Philip Guston.


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## nikola (Sep 7, 2012)

Almost impossible to decide. Considering classical music, this is my top 20 starting with #20. The list can change order tomorrow. I'm sure I also forgot some great pieces.

20. Edvard Grieg - Solveig's Song

19. Wagner - Lohengrin (Prelude)

18. Franz Liszt - Hungarian Rhapsody No.2

17. Vivaldi - Concerto for lute or guitar RV 93 - II.largo

16. Gershwin - Rhapsody in Blue (this is the best version ever)

15. Mozart - Eine Kleine Nachtmusik, K 525 Allegro

14. Richard Strauss - Also Sprach Zarathustra, Op. 30 I. Einleitung

13. Samuel Barber - Adagio for Strings

12. Chopin - Mazurka, Op. 17 No. 4

11. Bach - Toccata and Fugue in D Minor

10. Franz Schubert - Symphony No.8 "Unfinished" D 759

9. Beethoven - "Moonlight" Sonata op 27 #2 Mov 3

8. Mozart - Symphony #40 in G Minor, K 550 - 1. Molto Allegro

7. Dvorak - Symphony No. 9 "From the New World" - 3rd movement

6. Bach - Air ("on the G string")

5. Beethoven -5th Symphony, 1st movement: Allegro Con Brío

4. Wagner: Tristan und Isolde. Liebstod

3. Beethoven - Moonlight Sonata 1st movement

2. Gustav Mahler - Adagietto from Symphony no. 5

1. It's a surprise


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## soni (Jul 3, 2018)

Fredx2098 said:


> One of the reasons I adore Feldman is because most of his works are extremely long, cohesive, deliberate, and usually one single movement without a break, including the 5-6-hour long String Quartet No. 2.
> 
> I could give a long list of his pieces that I find extremely moving, but I think the most important to me are Piano, Violin, Viola, Cello and For Philip Guston.


I just went to a live performance of For Philip Guston about a week ago! Stunning piece, though the Second Quartet is even better!


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## Guest (Jul 3, 2018)

soni said:


> I just went to a live performance of For Philip Guston about a week ago! Stunning piece, though the Second Quartet is even better!


Wow I am jealous! For Philip Guston is my favourite work of his...........I wish I could see that live. Or anything by him, really.


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## Rambler (Oct 20, 2017)

Mahler's Ninth - first movement. This might not win in the popularity stakes but it seems to me a highly satisfying whilst profoundly disturbing composition. The symphony and it's harmonies seem to be on the point of cracking up!


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

I'll go with the last movement of Mahler's 4th symphony; the last movement of his 2nd symphony is a close second.


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## Fredx2098 (Jun 24, 2018)

soni said:


> I just went to a live performance of For Philip Guston about a week ago! Stunning piece, though the Second Quartet is even better!


So jealous.... I actually saw String Quartet No. 2 live right in the front row. It was an otherworldly experience. I love the piece, but it isn't my favorite by him. One of the things that draws me to his music are the unique ensembles he uses, and a string quartet is pretty normal. It seemed like an amazing concept though for a string quartet unlike any other string quartet ever made.


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## mathisdermaler (Mar 29, 2017)

Bruckner 8 mvt 1 is untouchable for me.


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## mathisdermaler (Mar 29, 2017)

soni said:


> I just went to a live performance of For Philip Guston about a week ago! Stunning piece, though the Second Quartet is even better!


If you dont mind, could you give us a "phenomenological" account of your experience? I've read some things about Feldman's compositional techniques but less about the experience of actually listening to his music as he intended it to be heard. You enjoyed the experience, but did you ever feel tired or bored throughout the 5 hour performance (or was it abridged)? Were there any intermissions? Did other people seem to be enjoying themselves? How many coughs per minute?

I'm so curious. I've never heard an entire long piece by Morton Feldman at home, let alone in a concert hall, but I do love the first 30 minutes of For Philip Guston.


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## Guest (Jul 8, 2018)

Berceuse, Dolly Suite, Fauré


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## Fredx2098 (Jun 24, 2018)

mathisdermaler said:


> If you dont mind, could you give us a "phenomenological" account of your experience? I've read some things about Feldman's compositional techniques but less about the experience of actually listening to his music as he intended it to be heard. You enjoyed the experience, but did you ever feel tired or bored throughout the 5 hour performance (or was it abridged)? Were there any intermissions? Did other people seem to be enjoying themselves? How many coughs per minute?
> 
> I'm so curious. I've never heard an entire long piece by Morton Feldman at home, let alone in a concert hall, but I do love the first 30 minutes of For Philip Guston.


I've seen String Quartet No. 2 performed live, right in the front row. It was about 5 hours. I was focused on the music the entire time, and I was not bored for a single moment (I was tired, but I have chronic fatigue and a myriad of health issues so I wouldn't count it). I had to use the restroom once during the performance, and it's the greatest regret of my life. There were a few coughs but they were as quiet as possible. I had to clear my throat a few times. It wasn't a recording and wasn't recorded so it wasn't much of an issue.

I find his music to be sublimely calm yet complex and dissonant. Speaking just from my own perspective, if I concentrate intently on the music and never allow my mind to wander, it puts me in a trance-like state. The music isn't repetitive or random, but you can only hear that if you really focus on it.


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## mathisdermaler (Mar 29, 2017)

Fredx2098 said:


> I've seen String Quartet No. 2 performed live, right in the front row. It was about 5 hours. I was focused on the music the entire time, and I was not bored for a single moment (I was tired, but I have chronic fatigue and a myriad of health issues so I wouldn't count it). I had to use the restroom once during the performance, and it's the greatest regret of my life. There were a few coughs but they were as quiet as possible. I had to clear my throat a few times. It wasn't a recording and wasn't recorded so it wasn't much of an issue.
> 
> I find his music to be sublimely calm yet complex and dissonant. Speaking just from my own perspective, if I concentrate intently on the music and never allow my mind to wander, it puts me in a trance-like state. The music isn't repetitive or random, but you can only hear that if you really focus on it.


Thanks. Im so happy for you and even more excited about Feldman's music now. I don't think I've given it the concentration it deserves to fully appreciate. Im gonna go listen to that SQ


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## janxharris (May 24, 2010)

Fredx2098 said:


> I've seen String Quartet No. 2 performed live, right in the front row. It was about 5 hours. I was focused on the music the entire time, and I was not bored for a single moment (I was tired, but I have chronic fatigue and a myriad of health issues so I wouldn't count it). I had to use the restroom once during the performance, and it's the greatest regret of my life. There were a few coughs but they were as quiet as possible. I had to clear my throat a few times. It wasn't a recording and wasn't recorded so it wasn't much of an issue.
> 
> I find his music to be sublimely calm yet complex and dissonant. Speaking just from my own perspective, if I concentrate intently on the music and never allow my mind to wander, it puts me in a trance-like state. The music isn't repetitive or random, but you can only hear that if you really focus on it.


Do you find his music therapeutic in some way? - you mention health issues.


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## Fredx2098 (Jun 24, 2018)

janxharris said:


> Do you find his music therapeutic in some way? - you mention health issues.


I do. I have extremely intense chronic pain in all of my joints, as well as generalized anxiety and depression. His music seems analogous to my constant state of pain, anxiety, and depression, not that his music expresses those things. I find his music very soothing and comforting even though there is a lot of dissonance. That isn't the sole reason I like his music though. It's not merely because of that fanciful analogy. I also enjoy intense and boisterous music, and everything in between.


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## janxharris (May 24, 2010)

Fredx2098 said:


> I do. I have extremely intense chronic pain in all of my joints, as well as generalized anxiety and depression. His music seems analogous to my constant state of pain, anxiety, and depression, not that his music expresses those things. I find his music very soothing and comforting even though there is a lot of dissonance. That isn't the sole reason I like his music though. It's not merely because of that fanciful analogy. I also enjoy intense and boisterous music, and everything in between.


Sorry to hear about your suffering.

There has been much discussion regarding the subjective nature of aesthetics - perhaps your experience upholds this to some extent. Would you say that you experience the obverse of music therapy if you hear certain styles - that your condition becomes aggravated?


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## Fredx2098 (Jun 24, 2018)

janxharris said:


> Sorry to hear about your suffering.
> 
> There has been much discussion regarding the subjective nature of aesthetics - perhaps your experience upholds this to some extent. Would you say that you experience the obverse of music therapy if you hear certain styles - that your condition becomes aggravated?


In regards to intense atonal music, it often sounds cathartic rather than aggravating. Furthermore, I also like extremely intense metal and harsh noise music and stuff like that for possibly similar reasons. The worst reaction I have to music is annoyance caused by things like commercial pop.


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## janxharris (May 24, 2010)

Fredx2098 said:


> In regards to intense atonal music, it often sounds cathartic rather than aggravating. Furthermore, I also like extremely intense metal and harsh noise music and stuff like that for possibly similar reasons. The worst reaction I have to music is annoyance caused by things like commercial pop.


Very interesting. 
Just listening to _For Philip Guston_...

Impossible question, but do you think your reaction to Feldman would have been very different without your condition?


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## Fredx2098 (Jun 24, 2018)

janxharris said:


> Very interesting.
> Just listening to _For Philip Guston_...
> 
> Impossible question, but do you think your reaction to Feldman would have been very different without your condition?


Definitely a tough question, but I don't think so. My health problems only started developing 7 or 8 years ago when I was 12 or 13, and I had already developed a taste for abnormal things, or in other words a modernist mindset. I think art should strive to be unique, and Feldman is very unique.


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## janxharris (May 24, 2010)

Fredx2098 said:


> I think art should strive to be unique....


I've always thought that definition (ie quality of distinctness) is possibly an object way of rating a piece of music. It does appear though that we don't all agree on what constitutes a cliché.


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## DaveM (Jun 29, 2015)

Fredx2098 said:


> I do. I have extremely intense chronic pain in all of my joints, as well as generalized anxiety and depression. His music seems analogous to my constant state of pain, anxiety, and depression...


It troubles me to hear this. I hope it's been possible for this to be evaluated. There are so many relatively new treatments for these symptoms.


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## Fredx2098 (Jun 24, 2018)

DaveM said:


> It troubles me to hear this. I hope it's been possible for this to be evaluated. There are so many relatively new treatments for these symptoms.


I've been seeking treatment ever since the symptoms started, and so far nothing has really helped in a substantial way and it just keeps getting worse and worse over the years. I've been diagnose with fibromyalgia, so I've tried an assortment of anti-depressants that are allegedly supposed to help sometimes, and they didn't didn't do anything at all. The only things that have any kind of noticeable effect are the accursed opioids and benzodiazepines, and those cause just as many problems as they "help". I've been trying memantine lately and that seems to have some potential. I'm going to be getting some ketamine treatments soon. It's supposed to shut off my nerve responses and hopefully bring them back in a less hyperactive way.

I didn't mean to start a pity party about myself though, I just wanted to make a point that we all have different backgrounds that may influence our tastes in the arts. I don't think anyone's taste is wrong, and I think we can all get along if we realize that we each have different opinions and that none of them are more correct than any other.

Thank you for your sympathy though. I have a tough time in life, but I'm very passionate about music. One of my opinions is that the amount a person suffers shouldn't be a factor of the value of that person. For example, I disagree with the adage that a person should feel lucky about their life because other people have it worse. It certainly doesn't help me that there are starving children in Africa, and it doesn't help someone with anxiety and depression that I have those things on top of chronic pain.


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## DaveM (Jun 29, 2015)

Fredx2098 said:


> I've been seeking treatment ever since the symptoms started, and so far nothing has really helped in a substantial way and it just keeps getting worse and worse over the years. I've been diagnose with fibromyalgia, so I've tried an assortment of anti-depressants that are allegedly supposed to help sometimes, and they didn't didn't do anything at all. The only things that have any kind of noticeable effect are the accursed opioids and benzodiazepines, and those cause just as many problems as they "help". I've been trying memantine lately and that seems to have some potential. I'm going to be getting some ketamine treatments soon. It's supposed to shut off my nerve responses and hopefully bring them back in a less hyperactive way.
> 
> I didn't mean to start a pity party about myself though, I just wanted to make a point that we all have different backgrounds that may influence our tastes in the arts. I don't think anyone's taste is wrong, and I think we can all get along if we realize that we each have different opinions and that none of them are more correct than any other.
> 
> Thank you for your sympathy though. I have a tough time in life, but I'm very passionate about music. One of my opinions is that the amount a person suffers shouldn't be a factor of the value of that person. For example, I disagree with the adage that a person should feel lucky about their life because other people have it worse. It certainly doesn't help me that there are starving children in Africa, and it doesn't help someone with anxiety and depression that I have those things on top of chronic pain.


I'm sure you've likely tried pregabalin (Lyrica), but thought I'd mention it anyway. I hope the ketamine helps -it has interesting effects in much smaller doses than those used for anesthesia.

Btw, I will say that for someone who has these difficult challenges with the medications that go with it, you express yourself very clearly and intelligently.


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## Fredx2098 (Jun 24, 2018)

DaveM said:


> I'm sure you've likely tried pregabalin (Lyrica), but thought I'd mention it anyway. I hope the ketamine helps -it has interesting effects in much smaller doses than those used for anesthesia.
> 
> Btw, I will say that for someone who has these difficult challenges with the medications that go with it, you express yourself very clearly and intelligently.


Lyrica and Cymbalta are some of the things I've tried that have had no effect. I have high hopes that the ketamine will at least provide some temporary relief if it's not the cure-all.

And thanks, if I let my condition take over my life, I'd just be a bedridden vegetable, though even my most "restful" state is just as torturous as anything else. I've learned to be very stoic and to not let the way I feel affect my rationality. Since wallowing in my discomfort isn't helpful, I do my best to follow my musical passion and to expand my knowledge of fields which I'm most interested in.


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## Strange Magic (Sep 14, 2015)

Fred, has Lyme Disease been ruled out?


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## Fredx2098 (Jun 24, 2018)

Strange Magic said:


> Fred, has Lyme Disease been ruled out?


I've had an abundance of tests performed, including Lyme disease I believe. Everything always comes back negative, though maybe repeated tests would be beneficial if the markers hadn't appeared yet. There was a recent test developed to more objectively diagnose people with fibromyalgia, because apparently there's a chemical that is consistently absent in people diagnosed with the disease, and that's the first test that has come back positive, though I'm not sure how much of a breakthrough that is.


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## Kevin Pearson (Aug 14, 2009)

For me, the greatest single piece ever to have been written would have to be the first movement of Beethoven's Symphony No. 5. It's intense, engaging, passionate and dramatic. Probably the most, or one of the most, memorable pieces ever written. Even those who are not classical music fans know the piece even if they can't name who wrote it and what piece it is. What Beethoven was able to do with that four-note motif is just amazing. Now, that does not mean that it's my favorite piece of all time because it's not. I just see it as the single greatest piece because of it's cohesive structure and wide-ranging impact for 200 years.


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