# Water Music vs The Brandenburg Concertos



## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

Both are unbelievable works in my mind and some of the finest of the Baroque Era. 

Discuss.


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## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

The way I hear the two, the Water Music is about keeping a king afloat and the Brandenburgs are about tipping the boat.


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

Manxfeeder said:


> The way I hear the two, the Water Music is about keeping a king afloat and the Brandenburgs are about tipping the boat.


Haha, I can totally hear that! I'm listening to Water Music now.


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## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

I like the Brandenburgs way more than the Water Music. Period instruments are essential to bring out the colour IMO. Textures and harmony in Water Music is less interesting me.


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

Love them all...B"burgs, H2O music, Royal Fireworks....wonderful instrumrntal music from Baroque era, deservedly popular....always prefer modern instruments to bring out the full expressive sonorities inherent in these great works.


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

A tougher Handel-Bach stand off might be between the Opus 6 Concerti Grossi and the Brandenburgs. I would be hard pressed to call that one. But for me the Brandenburgs top Water Music, much as I like the latter.


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## Richard8655 (Feb 19, 2016)

Also tough call here, but Handel op. 6 for me. Would also add Handel’s op. 3 in the competition.


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## premont (May 7, 2015)

While Händel's opus 6 is relatively conventional music, the Brandenburgs are unprecedented.


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## MarkW (Feb 16, 2015)

Both are unbelievable works in my mind and some of the finest of the Baroque Era.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Love them both, B,B concertos having a slight advance.


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

For me, the Brandenburgs blow any Handel composition out of the water. And they're not even among my favourite Bach works.


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## KRoad (Jun 1, 2012)

Art Rock said:


> For me, the Brandenburgs blow any Handel composition out of the water. And they're not even among my favourite Bach works.


But let's be honest, Handel was first and foremost a composer of opera and later oratorio, for him the human voice was the ultimate instrument for his creativity. A better comparison, if indeed a comparison of any kind is ever worth anything, would be Handel's operas and oratorios compared with Bach's oratorios and cantatas - in which case I would say Handel by a long stretch! But then we are comparing music written for the church with that written for the theatre. Have you ever read the texts for Bach's religious cantatas? Many of them are simply reflections on our sin laden and pus riddled souls preparing for the life of rosey redemption in the hereafter. Turgid stuff I assure you and if you listen to too many too quickly - rather depressing (as is the music at times).

So I will go with Handel. In the vocal genres that he primarily wrote for, his arias consistently approach the sublime, time after time, (and he wrote something approaching 2000 of them in total) something Bach achieved less often. IMO.


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

KRoad said:


> But let's be honest, Handel was first and foremost a composer of opera and later oratorio, for him the human voice was the ultimate instrument for his creativity. A better comparison, if indeed a comparison of any kind is ever worth anything, would be Handel's operas and oratorios compared with Bach's oratorios and cantatas - in which case I would say Handel by a long stretch! But then we are comparing music written for the church with that written for the theatre. Have you ever read the texts for Bach's religious cantatas? Many of them are simply reflections on our sin laden and pus riddled souls preparing for the life of rosey redemption in the hereafter. Turgid stuff I assure you and if you listen to too many too quickly - rather depressing (as is the music at times).
> 
> So I will go with Handel. In the vocal genres that he primarily wrote for, his arias consistently approach the sublime, time after time, (and he wrote something approaching 2000 of them in total) something Bach achieved less often. IMO.


For me, Bach beats out Handel all the time, and that includes their respective vocal works. Maybe you get depressed too easily; Bach's religious works are very uplifting; Handel's operas are entertaining.


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## Genoveva (Nov 9, 2010)

Captainnumber36 said:


> Both are unbelievable works in my mind and some of the finest of the Baroque Era.
> 
> Discuss.


It is highly predictable that you would get a preponderance of replies in favour of the Brandenburgs over Water Music. You only have to look at the results of the relevant T-C poll in the "recommended works" section to see that Bach's work had a commanding lead over Handel's in this area.

My opinion is that both sets of work are obviously of very high quality works, but I rather prefer the BBs, and have a large collection by a number of different performers. Both sets of work are so well-known, and often performed especially on radio, that they have become almost in the same league as Vivaldi's 4 Seasons (overplayed). There are tons of other, less popular baroque material that I normally prefer to listen to, including a large amount of other works by Bach and Handel.

Incidentally, what this place seems to lack at the present time is a tub-thumping bonkers-about-Handel member(s). For a change, it would be nice to see a Handelian slogging it out with a Bachian, as I'm sure that many people must be bored with the usual Mozart v Beethoven squabbles. Such Handelian fans used to exist on this Forum in the distant past, but like so many other knowledgeable people they've all gone.


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## Richard8655 (Feb 19, 2016)

Good point, above. There are quite few of us die-hard Handelians here that do engage in these discussions. Recent polls have always shown Handel a close contender, but this is due to the preponderance of Bachians in the forum. Debating is interesting, but often breaks down to personal preference and interpretation of what is musically innovative or inventive (as seen in an interesting competing thread), not that this is the only criteria on what make a composer’s works great or greater than another’s.


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## KRoad (Jun 1, 2012)

Genoveva said:


> It is highly predictable that you would get a preponderance of replies in favour of the Brandenburgs over Water Music. You only have to look at the results of the relevant T-C poll in the "recommended works" section to see that Bach's work had a commanding lead over Handel's in this area.
> 
> My opinion is that both sets of work are obviously of very high quality works, but I rather prefer the BBs, and have a large collection by a number of different performers. Both sets of work are so well-known, and often performed especially on radio, that they have become almost in the same league as Vivaldi's 4 Seasons (overplayed). There are tons of other, less popular baroque material that I normally prefer to listen to, including a large amount of other works by Bach and Handel.
> 
> Incidentally, what this place seems to lack at the present time is a tub-thumping bonkers-about-Handel member(s). For a change, it would be nice to see a Handelian slogging it out with a Bachian, as I'm sure that many people must be bored with the usual Mozart v Beethoven squabbles. Such Handelian fans used to exist on this Forum in the distant past, but like so many other knowledgeable people they've all gone.


Well, I am a self-professed Handel fan as my previous posts on H. will confirm. I also of course enjoy Bach immensely - I just find his Cantata libretti God-awful (for the most part). To say one is _better_ than the other is silly. To _prefer _one to the other is another matter.


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## Genoveva (Nov 9, 2010)

Richard8655 said:


> Good point, above. There are quite few of us die-hard Handelians here that do engage in these discussions. Recent polls have always shown Handel a close contender, but this is due to the preponderance of Bachians in the forum. Debating is interesting, but often breaks down to personal preference and interpretation of what is musically innovative or inventive (as seen in an interesting competing thread), not that this is the only criteria on what make a composer's works great or greater than another's.


I'd far sooner see some interesting debates about the merits of different composers and their works by people who have some useful knowledge to share, even if they do become bit lively at times, rather than a load of brainless polls that test nobody's real knowledge, and which inform others even less. Still, I suppose even they are more interesting than discussions about whether or not one pees in one's shower, or deliberately aims to run over squirrels when driving.


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## Razumovskymas (Sep 20, 2016)

Genoveva said:


> Incidentally, what this place seems to lack at the present time is a tub-thumping bonkers-about-Handel member(s). For a change, it would be nice to see a Handelian slogging it out with a Bachian, as I'm sure that many people must be bored with the usual Mozart v Beethoven squabbles. Such Handelian fans used to exist on this Forum in the distant past, but like so many other knowledgeable people they've all gone.


J.S. Bach vs G.F. Händel


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

Genoveva said:


> I'd far sooner see some interesting debates about the merits of different composers and their works by people who have some useful knowledge to share, even if they do become bit lively at times, rather than a load of brainless polls that test nobody's real knowledge, and which inform others even less. Still, I suppose even they are more interesting than discussions about whether or not one pees in one's shower, or deliberately aims to run over squirrels when driving.


While I have made "vs." polls in the past, as I said to you in another thread, I do think listing criteria would give more guidance to the discussion and make it more interesting.


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