# Ives and Schoenberg



## Avey (Mar 5, 2013)

As of late, I have delved faithfully into *Ives'* work, and I cannot get all the _music_ out of my head.

So, with that perspective, I have been reading on him as well. I am interested in *Ives'* dissonant and atonal elements. I know, I know, many members here take issue with the latter term.

Nonetheless, was Ives' experimenting in atonal styles actually _novel_ during his time? Particularly, did Ives _beat_ *Schoenberg* to the whole "atonal" or whole-tone approach? (And I do not mean to belittle or sound naive with those labels; just trying to get my point across). Did they share similarities in structure or style? Are they entirely different?

Allegedly, Schoenberg was fond of Ives music -- or, at least, aware and appreciative of his works. I am not aware of any evidence Ives was similarly interested in Schoenberg's work. But who knows, because with all his quotes, clearly, Ives knew a _lot_ of music.


----------



## Cheyenne (Aug 6, 2012)

There were many independent experiments among different composers, were there not? Scriabin did the same.


----------



## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

Both were obviously pioneers, but I think Ives arrived at free atonality from a different perspective, experimenting with polytonality. And many have pointed out that Scriabin was probably a influence on Ives like in the Concord sonata. Scriabin was certainly very influential to those american ultramodernists, Ruth Crawford Seeger, Dane Rudhyar, Carl Ruggles, so I guess he would be a more apt comparison.


----------



## Guest (Oct 25, 2014)

Off topic and probably more appropriate for a PM, but Avey, I just now noticed that you are in Eugene. I was in Portland for seven years and in the last three of those came down to Eugene every summer to work the CD booth at the Bach festival. If you ever came by the booth, I was the guy with glasses, pony-tail, and a beard that got whiter with each passing year. That may have something to do with me being a year older with each passing year.


----------



## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

There has been some question of when Ives did what, but apparently he and Schoenberg and a few others began to write outside of the traditional major-minor tonal system at around the same time (first decade of the 20th century), although of course they were preceded in part by Debussy (whose use of the whole-tone scale is quite well-known), whom Ives did not like. I don't know what Ives would have thought of Schoenberg, though I am aware that Schoenberg admired Ives later in life when Ives was becoming known (Stravinsky did, too, to an extent).

There's also an apocryphal story that Mahler was ready and willing to conduct the score of Ives' Third Symphony before his untimely death, but I'm not sure there's any concrete evidence to prove that it happened.


----------



## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

Avey said:


> ...I am interested in *Ives'* dissonant and atonal elements. I know, I know, many members here take issue with the latter term.
> 
> Nonetheless, was Ives' experimenting in atonal styles actually _novel_ during his time? Particularly, did Ives _beat_ *Schoenberg* to the whole "atonal" or whole-tone approach? (And I do not mean to belittle or sound naive with those labels; just trying to get my point across). Did they share similarities in structure or style? Are they entirely different?


This video helped me understand Ives a lot more. Ives was not as systematic as Schoenberg was; Ives liked dissonance for dissonance's sake, because he liked the way it sounded.


----------



## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Ives: The only composer who could make dissonance into a sensual experience.


----------



## Couac Addict (Oct 16, 2013)

It wasn't novel in sense that it just suddenly appeared in music. You only have to listen to how chromaticism and modulations had changed between Mozart and Beethoven's Grosse Fuge. This influenced Liszt, Chopin and Schubert and Wagner's Tristan und Isolde took modulation to a new level. The 'Tristan chord' takes us to a different key each time it is played. This influenced Strauss who kept us guessing the key changes with Metamorphosen and Mahler would finish symphonies in a different key.

Schoenberg would disregard tonality and Debussy would blur traditional scales and harmony altogether. They are still there in Prélude à l’après-midi d’un faune but not routinely and not in the usual way.

My point being that music had been going down this path for some time. Each composer taking it a little further than his predecessor.


----------



## brotagonist (Jul 11, 2013)

I've heard and enjoyed nearly everything by Schoenberg and know almost nothing of Ives' work. I bought a set of his symphonies (Mehta) in 2013 and I liked the way it sounded. I am very keen on knowing more of his music!


----------



## JACE (Jul 18, 2014)

brotagonist said:


> I've heard and enjoyed nearly everything by Schoenberg and know almost nothing of Ives' work. I bought a set of his symphonies (Mehta) in 2013 and I liked the way it sounded. I am very keen on knowing more of his music!


Listen to Michael Tilson Thomas' recordings of the orchestral works (especially the Fourth Symphony and the Holidays Symphony). MTT's Ives is unsurpassed.


----------



## Bruce (Jan 2, 2013)

I believe Liszt wrote a Bagatelle without tonality quite a few years before either Ives or Schönberg were active. As others have mentioned, I think this was a perspective on musical composition that was being explored in various modes for many years. But I believe Schönberg was the first to systematize atonality as a method of composition.


----------



## violadude (May 2, 2011)

brotagonist said:


> I've heard and enjoyed nearly everything by Schoenberg and know almost nothing of Ives' work. I bought a set of his symphonies (Mehta) in 2013 and I liked the way it sounded. I am very keen on knowing more of his music!


I really love his song "General Booths Enters Heaven". Maybe you will too.


----------



## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

Bruce said:


> But I believe Schönberg was the first to systematize atonality as a method of composition.


No, Schoenberg didn't "systematize" anything.

He created a series of compositions that have been called atonal, and did not fit within traditional functional major-minor tonality, but otherwise are an extension of late-Romantic practice, both harmonically and in every other way.

The 12-tone method he developed in the succeeding decade and a half was not so much a systematization of this new style as a way to allow compositions within this style to retain coherence over longer periods of time.

Various composers have, inspired by this method, used their own modified versions of it, but the result always ends up reflecting the personality of the composer (unless, of course, they don't have much of one to begin with).


----------



## Bruce (Jan 2, 2013)

brotagonist said:


> I've heard and enjoyed nearly everything by Schoenberg and know almost nothing of Ives' work. I bought a set of his symphonies (Mehta) in 2013 and I liked the way it sounded. I am very keen on knowing more of his music!


You've got to hear his Circus Band, a short composition for band, chorus and baritone (who you can't really hear over the other performers). This is a fairly urbane performance; it could be a little more raucous, as I believe Ives intended it to be.


----------



## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

Mahlerian said:


> No, Schoenberg didn't "systematize" anything.
> 
> He created a series of compositions that have been called atonal, and did not fit within traditional functional major-minor tonality, but otherwise are an extension of late-Romantic practice, both harmonically and in every other way.
> 
> ...


There you go, nitpicking over the term "atonal." I see your frustration, and share it.

I think an even more basic problem is the term "classical" used to identify this forum, as we have seen on the "Is Pink Floyd Classical" thread an attempt to remove Milton Babbitt from under this umbrella term.


----------



## rrudolph (Sep 15, 2011)

millionrainbows said:


> I think an even more basic problem is the term "classical" used to identify this forum, as we have seen on the "Is Pink Floyd Classical" thread an attempt to remove Milton Babbitt from under this umbrella term.


If only Babbitt had written music for Pink Floyd (an interesting proposition, to be sure)--THEN we could consider him a truly classical composer!!


----------



## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

rrudolph said:


> If only Babbitt had written music for Pink Floyd (an interesting proposition, to be sure)--THEN we could consider him a truly classical composer!!


You know, hearing a Babbitt piece for rock band would probably be pretty nice. I like his works for classical guitar: Danci


----------



## rrudolph (Sep 15, 2011)

He did write a rather nice piece for jazz ensemble:


----------



## chalkpie (Oct 5, 2011)

To the OP - enjoy the Ives ride! He is still top 5 for me, but there are other cats I've come to like as much, but there is NO ONE like Ives. There is no school attached to his "style", although romanticism actually is the heart and soul of most of his compositions. 

MTT and James Sinclair are two of the best Ives interpreters IMO, at least on record. I'm still waiting for Sinclair to record Ives 4, but until then MTT's Chicago version on Sony is my go-to. Seeing this piece performed in 2004 at Avery Fisher with the NYP was life-altering. Dead center of the auditorium - what was great is that a lot of olde geezers escaped before the downbeat, so a ton of seats opened up. So I made my way from the side balcony to orchestra center. There is no piece like it.


----------



## chalkpie (Oct 5, 2011)

PS - there is also a reason I chose that album over there as my avatar :cheers:


----------



## JACE (Jul 18, 2014)

chalkpie said:


> I'm still waiting for Sinclair to record Ives 4, but until then MTT's Chicago version on Sony is my go-to. Seeing this piece performed in 2004 at Avery Fisher with the NYP was life-altering.


I had a similar experience going to see Ives' Fourth performed by MTT and the San Francisco Symphony.

The concert blew me away, completely wrecked me. It was easily the most moving concert experience that I've ever had.


----------

