# Music and Hearing Loss



## Polednice (Sep 13, 2009)

I watched an extremely interesting TED video this morning about cochlear implants and their limits with music perception. When it comes to restoring lost senses, medicine is the furthest ahead with hearing, and yet there are some astounding limitations to restoring the ability to perceive music even though we can restore the ability to perceive language extremely well. Here's a quick run-down of the best points before the video:

1) Pitch perception with a cochlear implant can be off by up to _2 octaves_!
2) People with a cochlear implant can't tell the difference between instruments as different as a trumpet and violin.
3) Brain imaging shows that there is very little brain activity in patients with these implants when hearing music in comparison to controls.
4) Go to 10:13 in the video for an example of normal music (Usher  ) followed by an attempt to demonstrate what it sounds like to a patient. Patients say they both sound the same.


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## violadude (May 2, 2011)

Ahh!! Polednice! You are always bringing up scary/worrisome/depressing threads! >.<


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## Polednice (Sep 13, 2009)

violadude said:


> Ahh!! Polednice! You are always bringing up scary/worrisome/depressing threads! >.<


Hahahahaha, how is it scary?! It's fascinating!


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## Chi_townPhilly (Apr 21, 2007)

I have this on first-hand testimony from someone who HAS received a "state-of-the-art" cochlear implant:

He reports that he retains the ability to enjoy music with which he's already familiar, as his subconscious somehow compensates for the sounds that aren't properly transmitted, but are well-known in his memory. However, he testifies to NO enjoyment from hearing anything not previously known, as it comes across as an ill-pitched, soupy mush.

So- no new music exploration for HIM.


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## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

Chi_townPhilly said:


> I have this on first-hand testimony from someone who HAS received a "state-of-the-art" cochlear implant:
> 
> He reports that he retains the ability to enjoy music with which he's already familiar, as his subconscious somehow compensates for the sounds that aren't properly transmitted, but are well-known in his memory. However, he testifies to NO enjoyment from hearing anything not previously known, as it comes across as an ill-pitched, soupy mush.
> 
> So- no new music exploration for HIM.


Ah, so. Here's to constant evolution in 'state of the art'!


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## kv466 (May 18, 2011)

What a downer. I was just thinking about hearing loss a few days ago when I got a call to substitute a drummer for a band I normally play bass with. I never realized one of the guitarists puts their amp just behind the drummer's left ear and it being a small playing area in a not huge bar I had to make due. It wasn't even that loud but it was constant and made my snare drum barely loud when it is usually quite loud. I wish bars and clubs would want to hear Andean Folk Music or something along those lines of music that is not so loud.

Don't get me wrong. When I start to 'dance' behind the kit it is not only when the other players are reaching a high level of playing and we're all locked in but also when the volumes are all correct and I am able to play fluidly without having to compensate for someone being to low. I know loud volumes are required for some of the fun I like to have; I just wish ear plugs didn't make things sound so unnatural.


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## Guest (Dec 17, 2011)

Chi_townPhilly said:


> I have this on first-hand testimony from someone who HAS received a "state-of-the-art" cochlear implant:
> 
> He reports that he retains the ability to enjoy music with which he's already familiar... [H]e testifies to NO enjoyment from hearing anything not previously known, as it comes across as an ill-pitched, soupy mush.


You mean we've been trying all this time to try to understand how it could be that some people don't like new music, trying to help them grasp its beauties by changing their preconceptions about it, by encouraging them to become more familiar with it, and all along it's all been just a matter of cochlear implants??

Gosh!!


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

some guy said:


> You mean we've been trying all this time to try to understand how it could be that some people don't like new music, trying to help them grasp it's beauties by changing their preconceptions about it, by encouraging them to become more familiar with it, and all along it's all been just a matter of cochlear implants??
> 
> Gosh!!


Or maybe it's ill pitched soupy mush.


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## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

moody said:


> Or maybe it's ill pitched soupy mush.


Hah.  "ill-pitched" is just barely vague enough to be considered; "soupy mush" doesn't describe any of it I've heard.

[That "ill-pitched" could apply to some 'old' music'. Some early HIP recordings seemed to be performed by musicians who had not quite mastered their instruments.]


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

About 20 years ago I was diagnosed with high frequency hearing loss in my left ear. I attributed it to hard rock music in 6x9 oval speakers in a standard cab pickup truck. With the speakers in the doors the left ear gets hit pretty hard. Also, driving from 1976 to 1999 without air conditioning probably didn't help because of the highway and wind noise with a wide open window every summer. But the good news for me is that I apparently have not damaged my hearing much since then. Just had a hearing test and here are the results (Not bad for age 59 I guess):


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Gentlemen! Gentlemen! I believe this topic deserves a fair hearing!!!!


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Florestan said:


> About 20 years ago I was diagnosed with high frequency hearing loss in my left ear. I attributed it to hard rock music in 6x9 oval speakers in a standard cab pickup truck. With the speakers in the doors the left ear gets hit pretty hard. Also, driving from 1976 to 1999 without air conditioning probably didn't help because of the highway and wind noise with a wide open window every summer. But the good news for me is that I apparently have not damaged my hearing much since then. Just had a hearing test and here are the results (Not bad for age 59 I guess):


I think it's fantastic Florestan.


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## brianvds (May 1, 2013)

Polednice said:


> When it comes to restoring lost senses, medicine is the furthest ahead with hearing, and yet there are some astounding limitations to restoring the ability to perceive music even though we can restore the ability to perceive language extremely well.


Jeez, if I were to go deaf, I'd much rather have my ability to hear music restored than my ability perceive language. Who the hell cares what people say anyway?


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## Bettina (Sep 29, 2016)

brianvds said:


> Jeez, if I were to go deaf, I'd much rather have my ability to hear music restored than my ability perceive language. Who the hell cares what people say anyway?


I agree. For language, you can always use something like Beethoven's "conversation books." Or you can just text back and forth instead of talking to people. Nowadays, that's what most of us do anyway!


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## James Mann (Sep 6, 2016)

My hearing has dissipated a little over the last 30 years sorry to say. I did have a work related injury back then which I wouldn't like to speak of in detail.
I also did several building jobs back then which didn't help my hearing, regulations weren't as good back then


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Bettina said:


> I agree. For language, you can always use something like Beethoven's "conversation books."  Or you can just text back and forth instead of talking to people. Nowadays, that's what most of us do anyway!


It wouldn't be a problem for many of us going to all those remote tropical islands accompanied by all our favorite CDs.


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## Krummhorn (Feb 18, 2007)

I too experienced hearing loss over the years. Eventually I had to get hearing aids - bought a pair of top of the line Bernofon's (made in Switzerland) which have settings for various listening scenarios, one of which is music. I can once again hear the high notes of the organ and hear a clarity in sound that I had not heard in a long time. 

Unfortunately (at least in the US) Medicare (retiree insurance plan) does not offer any help to pay for these things - so I had to pay a hefty sum out of my own pocket ($7,500 USD in 2013) but it was well worth it. 

These aids have 4 settings: 1) normal, 2) conversation (eliminates background noise), 3) music, 4) car and road noise suppression when traveling. 

My wife appreciates being heard again, too


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

Two more downers on loud music:

* Loud music damages the nerves in the brain
Loud music on headphones has the same effect on nerves as multiple sclerosis and causes hearing loss.*

*Prolonged exposure to loud noise alters how the brain processes speech, potentially increasing the difficulty in distinguishing speech sounds, according to neuroscientists at The University of Texas at Dallas*.


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## MarkW (Feb 16, 2015)

I still do not understand (and have never understood) the need for pop music to be played at deafening volumes. And no one has been able to explain it to me. I dislike live rock concerts to the point of hate, because they're so loud you can't hear the music! Having someone stand behind me, hitting me in the head with a large rubber mallet is preferable.


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## NoCoPilot (Nov 9, 2020)

I stopped going to rock concerts about 40 years ago because the prevailing practice is to amplify everything beyond the pain threshold. Ear plugs are a requirement, which is crazy! A couple of times I have actually approached the house mixing board and complained to the guy mixing sound. Sometimes they're receptive to my pleas. Usually they, uh, turn a deaf ear.....

Good sound in rock concerts is rarer than hens teeth. Whenever I experience it I make sure to thank the mixer and the venue manager.

I remember once in the late '70s I walked by a venue at the state fair where George Thorogood was playing. Even outside, with doors closed, thirty feet away, it was loud to the point of physical pain.

My dad and I used to do some woodworking together. I ALWAYS wear hearing protection when operating an electric saw. My dad asked why, once. I replied, "Well, I have a SUBSTANTIAL investment in my music collection."


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## Botschaft (Aug 4, 2017)

I’m just glad that hair loss doesn’t affect music perception.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

Botschaft said:


> I'm just glad that hair loss doesn't affect music perception.


Only if the sound echos off the top of your head. :lol:


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

NoCoPilot said:


> I stopped going to rock concerts about 40 years ago because the prevailing practice is to amplify everything beyond the pain threshold. Ear plugs are a requirement, which is crazy! A couple of times I have actually approached the house mixing board and complained to the guy mixing sound. Sometimes they're receptive to my pleas. Usually they, uh, turn a deaf ear.....
> 
> Good sound in rock concerts is rarer than hens teeth. Whenever I experience it I make sure to thank the mixer and the venue manager.
> 
> ...


Once sat in risers in front of the speaker bank at a Ted Nugent concert (circa 1980). Was too loud even with ear plugs!


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## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

It's not just rock concerts. I've been to some outdoor classical concerts where the amplification is atrociously bad and too loud. Horrible way to present great music. Besides, if I wanted to listen to an amplifier I would have stayed home with my NAD system and be quite happy - and_* I *_control the volume.


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## Fabulin (Jun 10, 2019)

Don't wake Ludwig up yet.


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## adriesba (Dec 30, 2019)

This thread was started some nine years ago. My goodness, I really hope the situation with hearing restoration has improved or will improve!


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## Luchesi (Mar 15, 2013)

To me, the worse things are; 

Even when no annoyance or pain is felt you might be damaging your hearing (the crucial hairs). Think about our natural conditions thousands of years ago (comparatively quiet). 

No loss will be experienced until a threshold of damage is reached (maybe starting about 50 years of age as natural aging hearing loss contributes to your problem). Rapid loss after the threshold is reached.

Maybe new technology will help these young people when they reach ‘middle' age. I'll meet quite young people (in their 20s) who don't know how loud music is (in restaurants) because they've already been 'desensitized'. They talk loudly too, like old folks..


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## Doctor Fuse (Feb 3, 2021)

About a decade ago, when I was the union delegate for my orchestra, there was an interesting presentation at the annual conference.

It was given by an audiologist, and the topic at hand was hearing loss in orchestral musicians.

The main study cited was a recent German one, which had the interesting conclusion that among the German orchestral musician subjects, those who disliked the music more than those who liked it, suffered much greater levels of hearing loss.

It makes you think that mood and stress levels must affect the pliability or rigidity of our ear cells, which are really fragile when tense, I understand.

Stay loose, my friends!


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## Luchesi (Mar 15, 2013)

Doctor Fuse said:


> About a decade ago, when I was the union delegate for my orchestra, there was an interesting presentation at the annual conference.
> 
> It was given by an audiologist, and the topic at hand was hearing loss in orchestral musicians.
> 
> ...


Welcome to the forum.

I've never thought about players who might dislike the music they're paid to play. But I guess it's to be expected. They work a long time to get hired and then they're obligated to rehearse and play some works which are uninspiring, to say the least.


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