# Beethoven - Diabelli Variations



## DavidA

When in 1819 Diabelli presented his banal waltz to 50 composers asking for a variation each he cold have hardly thought he would get back in 1823 one of the greatest set of variations ever written from LvB.
It used to be a rarity on record but now there are plenty of recordings available. What would you recommend?


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## The3Bs

Indeed there are too many that will work for the many tastes of the listening population...

I like both Tatiana Nikolayeva and Sviatoslav Richter's recordings...


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## Mandryka

I last explored this music seriously in 2013 so I can't be much help, my tastes have probably changed (even more anti-virtuoso pianism than they were then!) and there must be lots of new insightful performances available. However this is the list I made



> *Top recordings
> 
> *Leonard Shure (Epic)
> Michael Oelbaum
> Rosen
> Kuerti
> Sokolov
> Pollini (live preferably)
> Anderszewski
> Horszowski
> Daria Rabotkina
> Bernard Roberts
> S Richter (Prague)
> Demidenko
> Nikolayeva 1979
> Brendel 2001
> Kovacevich (Onyx)
> Hans Petermandl
> Komen
> 
> *Need to revisit to get my head round*
> 
> Vieru
> Arrau (2 recordings)
> Cooper
> Gulda (2 recordings)
> Ciani
> Katchen
> R Serkin (live and.studio)
> Pludermacher
> Rangell
> Sheppard
> John Browning
> 
> *Fine but not special for me*
> 
> Schiff
> Lefébure
> Frith
> Lewis
> Ugorski
> 
> *Don't much want to hear again*
> 
> Schnabel
> Backhaus
> S Richter (1950s)
> Afanassiev
> Kinderman
> Korstick
> Richter-Haaser
> Brendel 1977
> Leonard Shure (audiofon)
> Yudina
> 
> *Haven't heard and want to hear*
> 
> Nikolayeva 1981
> Koroliov
> Kovacevich (Philips)
> John Browning
> Amadeus Webersinke


The only "work" I've done on this since 2013 is explore Arrau's second recording some more. I'm still not sure what to say about it.

Oh and one other thing. I heard it in concert for the first time a couple of years ago, Andersewski. It convinced me that this work demands a fabulous piano, a pianist who knows how to make the bass registers sing, and a state of the art recording played on the best equipment. Nothing less will do.


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## philoctetes

The3Bs said:


> I like both Tatiana Nikolayeva and Sviatoslav Richter's recordings...


Make that two votes for Nikolayeva, and another for Rudolph Serkin


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## Simplicissimus

I have no hesitation at all recommending John Browning’s 1965 recording on Sony (via RCA). It’s thoughtful yet Browning makes it fun, too. I also like Arrau’s stereo recording, Gulda’s, and Kovacevich’s. Browning and Arrau are the CDs I have in my collection.


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## The3Bs

Mandryka said:


> I last explored this music seriously in 2013 so I can't be much help, my tastes have probably changed (even more anti-virtuoso pianism than they were then!) and there must be lots of new insightful performances available. However this is the list I made
> 
> The only "work" I've done on this since 2013 is explore Arrau's second recording some more. I'm still not sure what to say about it.
> 
> Oh and one other thing. I heard it in concert for the first time a couple of years ago, Andersewski. It convinced me that this work demands a fabulous piano, a pianist who knows how to make the bass registers sing, and a state of the art recording played on the best equipment. Nothing less will do.


That is impressive for this music....
I like the Diabelli Variations but not in this extent....

You made me curious about a couple of recordings you mention, I think I will have a try at Sokolov, Anderszewski and Demidenko (I really like the sonority he gets out of the piano on the CD's I have).


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## Mandryka

Anyone care to explain what this music means? For example, what’s going on in the last variation? How did it make sense for Beethoven to finish it off with a variation like that, given what has happened before? He was punctilious about the order.


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## DavidA

Mandryka said:


> Anyone care to explain what this music means? For example, what's going on in the last variation? How did it make sense for Beethoven to finish it off with a variation like that, given what has happened before? He was punctilious about the order.


I think Beethoven knew how old epics end - quietly after the great fugue


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## Mandryka

DavidA said:


> I think Beethoven knew how old epics end - quietly after the great fugue


Ah that explains the rondo finale of op 130.


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## Enthusiast

Of the fifteen or so that I have heard I have noticed that I have most enjoyed and return to most often Anderszewski, Richter (Prague) and Staier. I have it in mind that I ought to include Arrau but will have to return to that one to check.


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## DavidA

Mandryka said:


> Ah that explains the rondo finale of op 130.


But he didn't think it was an infallible role obviously


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## Bulldog

My 2 favorites are Anderszewski and Sokolov.


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## DavidA

The first Kovacevich recording is superb. Still maybe the best overall recommendation.
Anderszewski is most interesting
Schnabel is classic
Richter is Richter
Serkin is amazing.
Frith is a very fine underrated recording
Anda is eccentric.


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## Mandryka

The Diabelli Variations attributed to Joyce Hatto were in fact by Stefan Vladar. Has anyone heard it?


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## UniversalTuringMachine

Mandryka said:


> The Diabelli Variations attributed to Joyce Hatto were in fact by Stefan Vladar. Has anyone heard it?


Is it the best thing ever?


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## Caroline

Alfred Brendel - he seems to have a 'sense of humor' in his playing in this work. Paul Lewis is a contemporary pianist recommended to me for these works over the past few months.


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## DavidA

Caroline said:


> Alfred Brendel - he seems to have a 'sense of humor' in his playing in this work. Paul Lewis is a contemporary pianist recommended to me for these works over the past few months.


I was introduced to the work when Brendel played it at the first Half of a Promenade concert. Most unusual! I was amazed at the work and later bought the first Brendel performance on Vox. A wonderful experience


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## Caroline

DavidA said:


> I was introduced to the work when Brendel played it at the first Half of a Promenade concert. Most unusual! I was amazed at the work and later bought the first Brendel performance on Vox. A wonderful experience


Lucky you! Would the Promenade be the famous Proms? How are the acoustics?

I enjoy many of Brendel's recordings of the Beethoven Sonatas - I think I have most of them. There is a CD or CDs that features recordings of all the variations created by the composers responding to Diabelli. Are you familiar with it? There is one by Jörg Demus (fortepiano) and I thinking of one by Schiff or Brautigam.

https://www.prestomusic.com/classical/products/8019379--diabelli-variations

The Archduke Rudolf was one of the composers who submitted compositions, maybe / likely with Beethoven's support?


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## Mandryka

In the 1990s I saw Brendel give a midnight concert with it in a little church in the Edinburgh festival, I remember a very good feeling in the audience. He had a thing about the Diabelli variations, there are many recordings, he played it all through his career, the earliest ones more virtuoso, the later ones deeper and more reflective. There was one I found, I listed it somewhere above, which seemed a good compromise to me. It’s the one Brendel himself chose for a release made in his honour when he retired. Worth hearing, though clearly not the last word.


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## Animal the Drummer

Caroline said:


> Alfred Brendel - he seems to have a 'sense of humor' in his playing in this work. Paul Lewis is a contemporary pianist recommended to me for these works over the past few months.


Interestingly Lewis was a pupil of Brendel's.


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## DavidA

Caroline said:


> Lucky you! Would the Promenade be the famous Proms? How are the acoustics?
> 
> I enjoy many of Brendel's recordings of the Beethoven Sonatas - I think I have most of them. There is a CD or CDs that features recordings of all the variations created by the composers responding to Diabelli. Are you familiar with it? There is one by Jörg Demus (fortepiano) and I thinking of one by Schiff or Brautigam.
> 
> https://www.prestomusic.com/classical/products/8019379--diabelli-variations
> 
> The Archduke Rudolf was one of the composers who submitted compositions, maybe / likely with Beethoven's support?


I must confess I wasn't actually there but heard it on our steam radio. I have been to the Oroms and the acoustics are a lot better than they were.


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## vincula

DavidA said:


> The first Kovacevich recording is superb. Still maybe the best overall recommendation.
> Anderszewski is most interesting
> Schnabel is classic
> Richter is Richter
> Serkin is amazing.
> Frith is a very fine underrated recording
> Anda is eccentric.


Which Serkin do you prefer, Live Prades '54, Marlboro '57 or London BBC '69?

Regards,

Vincula


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## DavidA

vincula said:


> Which Serkin do you prefer, Live Prades '54, Marlboro '57 or London BBC '69?
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Vincula


This one made for CBS









It's included in this set


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## CnC Bartok

^^^ That Serkin recording is my favourite too. One of the first recordings of the work that made it make sense for me.


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## Allegro Con Brio

Serkin is of course exciting and virtuosic, but I find his famous Diabellis somewhat on the "bangy" side - maybe it's the limitations of the recording, but the tone is a tad harsh for me, as if he was trying to toss off every variation as a flamethrowing showpiece rather than building the structure. I'm not normally a Brendel fan but I think his way with this towering work was pretty authoritative. I'll need to hear the Schnabel and Richter. And I really like the quirky Anderszewski:


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## flamencosketches

I just ordered the Arrau/Philips Diabellis. I must confess that I don't "get" this work. I blame my recordings—I have a really old Richter mono recording in mp3 form (part of a cheap compilation I got off Amazon) and Barenboim/Erato (probably quite fine in all reality, but I'm a bit allergic to Barenboim's playing—I greatly prefer him as a conductor).


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## Bigbang

flamencosketches said:


> I just ordered the Arrau/Philips Diabellis. I must confess that I don't "get" this work. I blame my recordings-I have a really old Richter mono recording in mp3 form (part of a cheap compilation I got off Amazon) and Barenboim/Erato (probably quite fine in all reality, but I'm a bit allergic to Barenboim's playing-I greatly prefer him as a conductor).


Well, Beethoven put some genius touches on another work but this does limit it attractiveness. I am not buying this "greatest" work for piano stuff. And you are in a forum like me where people put a spin on works that make one feel they are missing out.....no worries for me.


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## Bigbang

I do have Andreas Staier on forte piano...any comments


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## DavidA

Bigbang said:


> Well, Beethoven put some genius touches on another work but this does limit it attractiveness. I am not buying this "greatest" work for piano stuff. And you are in a forum like me where people put a spin on works that make one feel they are missing out.....no worries for me.


I think to say that Beethoven put a touch on another work is somewhat of an understatement. First it was not at work just are banal tune and second Beethoven did everything possible with it and appeared as though he could go on forever


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## DavidA

Bigbang said:


> I do have Andreas Staier on forte piano...any comments


I do not like the fortepiano on its own. Sounds like Winnefred Attwell improvising


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## DavidA

Allegro Con Brio said:


> Serkin is of course exciting and virtuosic, but I find his famous Diabellis somewhat on the "bangy" side - maybe it's the limitations of the recording, but the tone is a tad harsh for me, as if he was trying to toss off every variation as a flamethrowing showpiece rather than building the structure.]


There is of course the famous story of Serkin when he played his debut with Busch and was asked for an encore and played the Goldberg Variations as he couldn't think of anything else!


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## Bigbang

DavidA said:


> I think to say that Beethoven put a touch on another work is somewhat of an understatement. First it was not at work just are banal tune and second Beethoven did everything possible with it and appeared as though he could go on forever


You have any comments by Beethoven about this work? What he thought? I still think Diabelli variations appeal more in the past; I do not think the work will ever be as popular as his sonatas or other piano works.


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## Ich muss Caligari werden

DavidA said:


> I do not like the fortepiano on its own. Sounds like Winnefred Attwell improvising


LvB himself was not fond of the fortepiano: "It always will be an unsatisfactory instrument."


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## Mandryka

Bigbang said:


> You have any comments by Beethoven about this work? What he thought? I still think Diabelli variations appeal more in the past; I do not think the work will ever be as popular as his sonatas or other piano works.


That's an interesting idea. Why is that, do you think? Or are you just saying you don't like it as much as the other Beethoven piano material?


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## Ich muss Caligari werden

See Richard Brody's "Interpretive Extremes of Beethoven's Diabelli Variations" (_New Yorker_) inc. a live recording of Grete Sultan from '69 which, if nothing else, is a lotta fun! https://www.newyorker.com/culture/l...ve-extremes-of-beethovens-diabelli-variations

Years ago, I embraced William Kinderman's Hyperion recording (1994) in an effort to avoid extravagance, which this work seems to attract. No one knows more about the _Diabelli Variations_ than he, having written _the_ book on the subject, _Beethoven's Diabelli Variations, & CD_ (Studies in Musical Genesis and Structure).


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## Caroline

Animal the Drummer said:


> Interestingly Lewis was a pupil of Brendel's.


That is most interesting. I heard one of his performances on youtube (name escapes me).

I did come across a comment by Brendel in an interview with The Guardian in 2002 that he believes the primary job of the pianist is to respect the composer's wishes without showing off himself, or adding his own spin on the music: "I am responsible to the composer, and particularly to the piece". This is one of the things that makes him great.


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## Bigbang

Mandryka said:


> That's an interesting idea. Why is that, do you think? Or are you just saying you don't like it as much as the other Beethoven piano material?


Beethoven wrote it as a challenge with other composers who also had a hand in it. I am just saying that their perspective is from the past, and Beethoven wrote music that works well in the present. Remember, lot of music written is not really played now due to relevance to the present. I think D's V get attention because Beethoven wrote it.


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## Caroline

Ich muss Caligari werden said:


> LvB himself was not fond of the fortepiano: "It always will be an unsatisfactory instrument."


He drove development of the instrument and in 1828 Bosendoerfer released its first instrument. That being said, I don't _in general_ find the Graf by itself (and certainly the Broadwood) performed without accompaniment always enjoyable. 
'Magnificent Landscapes' - Penelope Crawford's performance of the last piano sonatas (109, 110 111) on a Graf is enjoyable (Musica Omnia label).

From a historical perspective, I think performances on period instruments are indispensable if one wants to know what audiences of the time might have heard and what Beethoven wrote for (can we say that)?

Certainly for his late SQs - when essentially completely deaf - he would describe some of them as for a 'later time.'

p.s. Kinderman is publishing a book this fall treating politics of B's' time.


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## Caroline

Ich muss Caligari werden said:


> LvB himself was not fond of the fortepiano: "It always will be an unsatisfactory instrument."


He drove development of the instrument and in 1828 Bosendoerfer released its first instrument. That being said, I don't _in general_ find the Graf by itself (and certainly the Broadwood) performed without accompaniment always enjoyable. 
'Magnificent Landscapes' - Penelope Crawford's performance of the last piano sonatas (109, 110 111) on a Graf is enjoyable (Musica Omnia label).

From a historical perspective, I think performances on period instruments are indispensable if one wants to know what audiences of the time might have heard and what Beethoven wrote for (can we say that)?

Certainly for his late SQs - when essentially completely deaf - he would describe some of them as for a 'later time.'

What do people think?


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## Caroline

Quite agree. Without B, the name Diabelli may not be in the lexicon.


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## Enthusiast

Bigbang said:


> I do have Andreas Staier on forte piano...any comments


I like it a lot. As always with Steier there is much to stimulate and surprise, qualities that the work thrives on. I also like Brautigam's Diabelli (in fact I very much enjoy most of his solo Beethoven). I don't for the live of me understand why so many listeners get upset with playing Beethoven on an instrument that he might have recognised and have found that it is often surprising how little we lose by playing even his more powerful and Romantic works on an appropriate forte piano. I suspect those who demur have probably not sampled very much of what is available.


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## DavidA

Bigbang said:


> Beethoven wrote it as a challenge with other composers who also had a hand in it. I am just saying that their perspective is from the past, and Beethoven wrote music that works well in the present. Remember, lot of music written is not really played now due to relevance to the present.* I think D's V get attention because Beethoven wrote it*.


Also because it is generally reckoned to be one of the greatest ever works for piano. Just a small point!


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## DavidA

Ich muss Caligari werden said:


> See Richard Brody's "Interpretive Extremes of Beethoven's Diabelli Variations" (_New Yorker_) inc. a live recording of Grete Sultan from '69 which, if nothing else, is a lotta fun! https://www.newyorker.com/culture/l...ve-extremes-of-beethovens-diabelli-variations
> 
> Years ago, I embraced William Kinderman's Hyperion recording (1994) in an effort to avoid extravagance, which this work seems to attract. *No one knows more about the Diabelli Variations than he*, having written _the_ book on the subject, _Beethoven's Diabelli Variations, & CD_ (Studies in Musical Genesis and Structure).


Really? Like these 'experts' who write on child rearing maybe?


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## DavidA

Caroline said:


> He drove development of the instrument and in 1828 Bosendoerfer released its first instrument. That being said, I don't _in general_ find the Graf by itself (and certainly the Broadwood) performed without accompaniment always enjoyable.
> 'Magnificent Landscapes' - Penelope Crawford's performance of the last piano sonatas (109, 110 111) on a Graf is enjoyable (Musica Omnia label).
> 
> From a historical perspective, I think performances on period instruments are indispensable if one wants to know what audiences of the time might have heard and what Beethoven wrote for (can we say that)?
> 
> *Certainly for his late SQs - when essentially completely deaf - he would describe some of them as for a 'later time.'*
> 
> What do people think?


Certainly the late piano works should only be played on a modern instrument as Beethoven would not have heard them anyway and the instrument he had in his head from the Hammerklavier onwards (and probably a lot earlier) would have far surpassed anything available to him at the time.


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## DavidA

Bigbang said:


> You have any comments by Beethoven about this work? What he thought? I still think Diabelli variations appeal more in the past; I do not think the work will ever be as popular as his sonatas or other piano works.


Beethoven thought Diabelli's waltz to be a 'cobbler's patch'. He initially dismissed it. Diabelli's verdict on Beethoven's variations:

"We present here to the world Variations of no ordinary type, but a great and important masterpiece worthy to be ranked with the imperishable creations of the old Classics-such a work as only Beethoven, the greatest living representative of true art-only Beethoven, and no other, can produce. The most original structures and ideas, the boldest musical idioms and harmonies are here exhausted; every pianoforte effect based on a solid technique is employed, and this work is the more interesting from the fact that it is elicited from a theme which no one would otherwise have supposed capable of a working-out of that character in which our exalted Master stands alone among his contemporaries. The splendid Fugues, Nos. 24 and 32, will astonish all friends and connoisseurs of serious style, as will Nos. 2, 6, 16, 17, 23, &c. the brilliant pianists; indeed all these variations, through the novelty of their ideas, care in working-out, and beauty in the most artful of their transitions, will entitle the work to a place beside Sebastian Bach's famous masterpiece in the same form. We are proud to have given occasion for this composition, and have, moreover, taken all possible pains with regard to the printing to combine elegance with the utmost accuracy."

History has actually agreed with the publisher. Martin Cooper wrote:

"The variety of treatment is almost without parallel, so that the work represents a book of advanced studies in Beethoven's manner of expression and his use of the keyboard, as well as a monumental work in its own right"

The music writer Donald Tovey called it "the greatest set of variations ever written" and pianist Alfred Brendel has described it as "the greatest of all piano works". It also comprises, in the words of Hans von Bülow, "a microcosm of Beethoven's art".

So whether you like it or not it has some pretty fearsome recommendations! :tiphat:


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## DavidA

Here is Brandel live:


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## Allegro Con Brio

I think it is a compendium of everything that had been done for the instrument up to that point in history - tremendous Bachian fugues! Paraphrase (or perhaps parody) of Mozart opera! Transcendental slow variations! Graceful Handelian dances! Virtuoso showpieces! I think Beethoven has both feet in the Romantic period here and the result is IMO one of the greatest things ever written for the piano. Sure, it's maybe a bit intellectual and challenging for the listener which is why it requires a great performance to "humanize" it. Listened to parts of Schnabel this morning. Sure, his technique in the studio wasn't up to par but he makes the variations seem like a coherent whole, and everything he does breathes humanity and spontaneity while not falling prey to self-indulgence. I think it is a Great Recording of the Century:


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## Mandryka

Bigbang said:


> Beethoven wrote it as a challenge with other composers who also had a hand in it. I am just saying that their perspective is from the past, and Beethoven wrote music that works well in the present. Remember, lot of music written is not really played now due to relevance to the present. I think D's V get attention because Beethoven wrote it.


Ah I see, I misunderstood you I think.


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## Mandryka

Allegro Con Brio said:


> I think it is a compendium of everything that had been done for the instrument up to that point in history - tremendous Bachian fugues! Paraphrase (or perhaps parody) of Mozart opera! Transcendental slow variations! Graceful Handelian dances! Virtuoso showpieces! I think Beethoven has both feet in the Romantic period here and the result is IMO one of the greatest things ever written for the piano. Sure, it's maybe a bit intellectual and challenging for the listener which is why it requires a great performance to "humanize" it. Listened to parts of Schnabel this morning. Sure, his technique in the studio wasn't up to par but he makes the variations seem like a coherent whole, and everything he does breathes humanity and spontaneity while not falling prey to self-indulgence. I think it is a Great Recording of the Century:


It just never seems to take off the page to me, it falls flat somehow.


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## Caroline

DavidA said:


> Certainly the late piano works should only be played on a modern instrument as Beethoven would not have heard them anyway and the instrument he had in his head from the Hammerklavier onwards (and probably a lot earlier) would have far surpassed anything available to him at the time.


He received the Broadwood when the Hammerklavier was nearly completed, and quite true, he wouldn't have heard much of the instrument either. He continously requested pianoforte manufacturers (including the Streichers) to modify their instruments in one way or another to make it easier for him to accommodate his deafness.

That being said, Beethoven never went completely deaf, as may be known or supposed by you and many/most others here. Although not specific to the Diabelli's - I came by new information about his deafness today.

New information is from an interview by The Guardian early this year of Theodore Albrecht of Kent State University.

Theodore Albrecht, who has translated and annotated Beethoven's Conversation Books (v3 published recently), spoke with The Guardian earlier this year and indicated that the composer still had hearing in his left ear until shortly before his death in 1827.

"Not only was Beethoven not completely deaf at the premiere of his Ninth Symphony in May 1824, he could hear, although increasingly faintly, for at least two years afterwards, probably through the last premiere that he would supervise, his String Quartet in B-flat, Op 130, in March 1826," Albrecht said.

There is quite a bit more in the article about this.


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## Caroline

Schnabel's recordings of the Sonatas are in the Library of Congress but not the Diabellis.

Michael Oelbaum's performance of the Diabelli variations are in the LOC. You can find them on YouTube and I tried to attach it below. If not - here is the link: 









It's quite good, the ads on YouTube are impossible, I am just going to have to purchase the recording.


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## Allegro Con Brio

Caroline said:


> Schnabel's recordings of the Sonatas are in the Library of Congress but not the Diabellis.
> 
> Michael Oelbaum's performance of the Diabelli variations are in the LOC. You can find them on YouTube and I tried to attach it below. If not - here is the link:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It's quite good, the ads on YouTube are impossible, I am just going to have to purchase the recording.


AdBlock works wonders for getting rid of ads on YouTube Wow, I've never even heard of Oelbaum. His recording must be something special; will have to check that out.


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## Xisten267

Caroline said:


> He received the Broadwood when the Hammerklavier was nearly completed, and quite true, he wouldn't have heard much of the instrument either. He continously requested pianoforte manufacturers (including the Streichers) to modify their instruments in one way or another to make it easier for him to accommodate his deafness.
> 
> *That being said, Beethoven never went completely deaf, as may be known or supposed by you and many/most others here. Although not specific to the Diabelli's - I came by new information about his deafness today.*
> 
> New information is from an interview by The Guardian early this year of Theodore Albrecht of Kent State University.
> 
> Theodore Albrecht, who has translated and annotated Beethoven's Conversation Books (v3 published recently), spoke with The Guardian earlier this year and indicated that the composer still had hearing in his left ear until shortly before his death in 1827.
> 
> "Not only was Beethoven not completely deaf at the premiere of his Ninth Symphony in May 1824, he could hear, although increasingly faintly, for at least two years afterwards, probably through the last premiere that he would supervise, his String Quartet in B-flat, Op 130, in March 1826," Albrecht said.
> 
> There is quite a bit more in the article about this.


According Swafford's Beethoven biography, a certain Sir George Smart visited the composer in 1825 and wrote that Beethoven "can hear a bit if one shouts next to his left ear". The composer's right ear was completely deaf by then. So, the composer was not 100% deaf, but almost that.


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## KenOC

Caroline said:


> Alfred Brendel - he seems to have a 'sense of humor' in his playing in this work. Paul Lewis is a contemporary pianist recommended to me for these works over the past few months.


I noticed this many years ago on my Brendel LP. Was it Brendel's first recording for Philips? Can't remember. But I do recall that, for the first time, the DV came across as quite a Falstaffian work, full of jokes and earthy humor. Since then, I've found that the reverence with which some pianists approach the work has a deadly effect.


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## Simplicissimus

KenOC said:


> I noticed this many years ago on my Brendel LP. Was it Brendel's first recording for Philips? Can't remember. But I do recall that, for the first time, the DV came across as quite a Falstaffian work, full of jokes and earthy humor. Since then, I've found that the reverence with which some pianists approach the work has a deadly effect.


Exactly, the DV to me has to be _fun_. Isn't it clear that the _Komponist_ intended it this way? This is a fun romp through the eras, and even a spoof on them. At the same time, we can appreciate the variations in a more serious way. I've already stated my recommended recording.


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## DavidA

Caroline said:


> He received the Broadwood when the Hammerklavier was nearly completed, and quite true, he wouldn't have heard much of the instrument either. He continously requested pianoforte manufacturers (including the Streichers) to modify their instruments in one way or another to make it easier for him to accommodate his deafness.
> 
> That being said, Beethoven never went completely deaf, as may be known or supposed by you and many/most others here. Although not specific to the Diabelli's - I came by new information about his deafness today.
> 
> New information is from an interview by The Guardian early this year of Theodore Albrecht of Kent State University.
> 
> Theodore Albrecht, who has translated and annotated Beethoven's Conversation Books (v3 published recently), spoke with The Guardian earlier this year and indicated that the composer still had hearing in his left ear until shortly before his death in 1827.
> 
> "Not only was Beethoven not completely deaf at the premiere of his Ninth Symphony in May 1824, he could hear, although increasingly faintly, for at least two years afterwards, probably through the last premiere that he would supervise, his String Quartet in B-flat, Op 130, in March 1826," Albrecht said.
> 
> There is quite a bit more in the article about this.


Interesting that Albrecht's article contradicts what most contemporary witnesses say about Beethoven and his deafness. Why did he have conversation books if he still had hearing in his left ear?


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## KenOC

DavidA said:


> Interesting that Albrecht's article contradicts what most contemporary witnesses say about Beethoven and his deafness. Why did he have conversation books if he still had hearing in his left ear?


I believe Beethoven's hearing varied from day to day. Some days he was functionally deaf. Other days (rare) he might dispense with the conversation books entirely, though hearing was still difficult.


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## DavidA

KenOC said:


> I believe Beethoven's hearing varied from day to day. Some days he was functionally deaf. Other days (rare) he might dispense with the conversation books entirely, though hearing was still difficult.


People often think this way who don't understand hearing loss. It doesn't just involve loss of sound but loss of clarity and distortion. So although Beethoven May have heard someone shouting in his ear it would have been highly distorted. And as for music he would not have been able to make out the notes. He may have heard a blurr of faint noise but not the notes themselves.


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## Enthusiast

DavidA said:


> Certainly the late piano works should only be played on a modern instrument as Beethoven would not have heard them anyway and the instrument he had in his head from the Hammerklavier onwards (and probably a lot earlier) would have far surpassed anything available to him at the time.


Change your "certainly" for "IMO" and your comment might seem less of a joke. Or perhaps you do actually know what piano Beethoven would have heard in his head. Do you think it was a Steinway or a Bosendorfer? And whichever it was do you think it sounded like our modern instruments or was it more like the kind of Steinway (or Bosendorfer) that was used in the late 19th century? Why not actually spend some time listening to the Hammerklavier or the Diabelli Variations on some different instruments? 
Meanwhile, why not actually listen to some recordings


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## Caroline

DavidA said:


> Interesting that Albrecht's article contradicts what most contemporary witnesses say about Beethoven and his deafness. Why did he have conversation books if he still had hearing in his left ear?


This is a very good question. From Beethoven's earliest admissions to friends of his deafness he indicated that loud noises were extremely painful so that is why he may have used the conversation books even if he could still hear even to a small extent.

Your point about contemporary witness reports on his hearing loss is also quite a good one. While I can't address hearing in particular - it is my undnestanding that during Beethoven's life a myth started to develop aroundn him in general.

He did not use the CB's for all of his conversations. For the first 'Heft' in Albrechts' v1 (Heft 1 covers a period of 5 days) - there are scant conversations - and several lists (shopping, household inventory - gray blankets, white sheet, floor covering, etc., etc. as well as things he wanted to remember or do (for example, 'Archduke's receipt') . I wonder if he would have liked post-its. 

Because he knew he could be overheard from speaking loudly - there are several instances where he wrote his side of the conversation, which is immensely interesting and valuable.

I have v1 and 2 of Albrechts' translations and it is interesting reading.


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## Enthusiast

There is a story (is it true?) of Beethoven attending the premiere of the Choral Symphony. It ended and the audience erupted into applause. Beethoven - who the orchestra had been warned not to to watch - continued conducting, not realising it was over. This does suggest that by that time he was profoundly deaf. It may also suggest he preferred slow speeds!


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## Caroline

DavidA said:


> People often think this way who don't understand hearing loss. It doesn't just involve loss of sound but loss of clarity and distortion. So although Beethoven May have heard someone shouting in his ear it would have been highly distorted. And as for music he would not have been able to make out the notes. He may have heard a blurr of faint noise but not the notes themselves.


Sorry - not able to figure out to quote both Ken's and David's comments. I understand this to be the case, Ken. The varied use of the CBs bears this out and Beethoven commented on it as well (in writing).

Loss of clarity and distortion one (often) overlooks. He documented that the could hear instruments but trouble with voices early as his deafness presented itself.

Tinnitis was of significant trouble to him 'my hears hum and buzz' day and night. To what extent he could hear in the final years of his life - we dont' really know - but this information may impact how people interpret his later works.


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## Caroline

KenOC said:


> I noticed this many years ago on my Brendel LP. Was it Brendel's first recording for Philips? Can't remember. But I do recall that, for the first time, the DV came across as quite a Falstaffian work, full of jokes and earthy humor. Since then, I've found that the reverence with which some pianists approach the work has a deadly effect.


While I don't _understand_ the humor in the piece per se (but I will get there!) - Beethoven did intend for it to have one. I haven't identified the musical puns in it (yet). Are there any variation #s that come to mind for this?

I have Brendel's digitally remastered 1964 version - released on a VOX label in 1995.


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## Caroline

Enthusiast said:


> There is a story (is it true?) of Beethoven attending the premiere of the Choral Symphony. It ended and the audience erupted into applause. Beethoven - who the orchestra had been warned not to to watch - continued conducting, not realising it was over. This does suggest that by that time he was profoundly deaf. It may also suggest he preferred slow speeds!


Another good question and maybe the stuff of legend. Beethoven did not conduct the 9th. He was in the 'wings' beating time. The name of the conductor I would have to look up. Whether myth or true, of the 2 sopranos turned him around so he could see the audience's applause. She was either Karoline Unger or Henriette Sontag.


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## Caroline

Thanks! I will investigate Adblock.


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## Enthusiast

As a result of this thread I finally decided to purchase the Brautigam recording on BIS. I already had all the sonatas and rate them very highly (in my top 5 with Annie Fischer, Kempff, Gilels and Kovacevich) but I still wasn't prepared for how good his Diabellis are. I urge those who might be interested to give them a hearing.


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## Caroline

Thank you for sharing this! I listened to the excerpts online - and it is dazzling. It's a fine instrument and the acoustics of the church may replicate what audiences actually heard. The church may be more like a ballroom than a concert hall...?

Do you prefer the period or modern piano for the Diabellis or the Sonatas?

Did you purchase a SACD or files?


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## Enthusiast

Most of the Diabellis I love are on piano but when a forte piano performance is good I enjoy them, too, and enjoy the special sound. Staier's recording was already one of my favourites and I feel unusually certain that the Brautigam will also become one! I got the SACD.


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## Caroline

Enthusiast said:


> Most of the Diabellis I love are on piano but when a forte piano performance is good I enjoy them, too, and enjoy the special sound. Staier's recording was already one of my favourites and I feel unusually certain that the Brautigam will also become one! I got the SACD.


Appreciate the tip on Staier. Althought not on Diabelli - it is Beethoven. I recently acquired from the Beethoven-haus one of their CDs (no SACDs it looks like - and no downloads) featuring Staier (Graf) on the Violin Sonatas and Piano Trios (double album). The Sonate No 7 is particularly lovely. The performances feature Beethoven's violin. I purchased this and another CD because they feature Beethoven's instruments (the other being the String Quartets).

The SQs sound quite different on his instruments. From a historical perspective it's something I couldn't pass up. As it just came in the mail I have only listened to it a few times.


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## Caroline

Enthusiast said:


> Most of the Diabellis I love are on piano but when a forte piano performance is good I enjoy them, too, and enjoy the special sound. Staier's recording was already one of my favourites and I feel unusually certain that the Brautigam will also become one! I got the SACD.


After waffling (anguishing?) between Brautigam and Staier I decided on the Staier - I will get the Brautigam Diabelli in the future. I am doing the hi-res downloads for these. The time to get media is taking a few weeks.


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## DavidA

Just listened to Pollini. Masterly playing.


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## mikeh375

DavidA said:


> Just lusted to Pollini. Masterly playing.


...you might want to re-spell that David....


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## DavidA

mikeh375 said:


> ...you might want to re-spell that David....


Thanks! This wretched predictive text first thing in the morning!


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## Barbebleu

Quite keen on the Charles Rosen myself.


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## DavidA

The Serkin version is absolutely riveting.


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## Oldhoosierdude

DavidA said:


> Just listened to Pollini. Masterly playing.





mikeh375 said:


> ...you might want to re-spell that David....


Don't ask.
Don't tell.


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## 444mil

My favourites: Anderszewski and Levit.

Kovacevich on Onyx does great on some variations. Have yet to hear his 1st recording.


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## perdido34

Craig Sheppard was recorded live in the Diabelli's, oddly coupled with Scriabin Sonata 5 and also with a Schubert Impromptu. The recording is very hard to find, but not to be missed. Levit is second in line for me.


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