# Antonio Salieri



## Nix

Is anyone familiar with his works? Considering that at one time he was the "composer of his day" it seems odd that he's mostly only remembered because of the movie Amadeus. 

Right now I'm listening to the only CD I have of him- a selection of his overtures, which I'm not really using to pass judgement on him overall (after all, with the exception of Egmont and Fidelio, all of Beethoven's overtures are forgettable). So far the only thing that has stood out beyond mediocrity is his overture to "La Secchia Rapita"- which is mildly engaging. 

So if anyone can share any insight into is work, I'd be happy to hear it.


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## jhar26

I have a cd of concertos and a dvd of his opera "Tarare." Both are enjoyable, but neither one is in the league of Mozart. That probably sounds more negative than is my intention. Let's just say that it's the difference between a talented craftsman and a genius.


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## Jaime77

(after all, with the exception of Egmont and Fidelio, all of Beethoven's overtures are forgettable)

overtures 'the creatures of prometheus', 'leonore III' and my personal favourite... Coriolan. I haven't forgotten these gems


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## Aramis

His Twenty-six variations on 'La Follia di Spagna' is enjoyable orchestral work.


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## Il Seraglio

I tried listening to his Sinfonia Venezia with as open a mind as possible, but his music doesn't even appear to be in the same league as J.C. Bach, Cimarosa or Dittersdorf, let alone Mozart, Gluck or Haydn. Pretty much all of these people, even the ones who are not fully fledged geniuses are at least talented tunesmiths where Salieri's music lacks melody.

He must have been a talented musician to have been the man who tutored Franz Liszt. Maybe his music has hidden depths or maybe his real talents lay in being a mentor.


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## Nix

hmm... so no hidden masterpieces? ah well. And my apologies Jaime, I should have added an "in my opinion" after that.


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## nefigah

Hmm, so when _Amadeus_ had him dub himself "The Patron Saint of Mediocrity," it wasn't far from the truth, eh? Not hearing much love in this thread


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## Lukecash12

I just so happen to have a play list of his music: http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=E0B0EEF93B1E47D0


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## handlebar

I own a Capriccio CD of his piano concertos and it is well done IMHO. He really deserves to be heard more often.

Jim


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## HarpsichordConcerto

Missed this thread. Salieri's music is listenable on occasions. Amongst several of his works, I have two of his operas.

_La Grotta di Trofonio _ (on period instruments)









_Les Danaides_ (on period instruments)









Two concertos for fortepiano. Interesting works but no way near the perfected Classical piano concertos of Mozart.


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## Il Seraglio

Lukecash12 said:


> I just so happen to have a play list of his music: http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=E0B0EEF93B1E47D0


Ah, thanks for this. That Triple Concerto in D Major is really not bad actually.


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## Lukecash12

Il Seraglio said:


> Ah, thanks for this. That Triple Concerto in D Major is really not bad actually.


No problem. His _La Follia di Spagna_ variations are amongst my favorite classical works.


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## WJM

Salieri composed some very enojable pieces, like Sinfonia Veneziana - simple as it is, but it was the first Salieri work I've heard, and I loved it; Variations on La folia; some of his overtures, the only full opera of his I've heard was Axur Re d'Ormus, and it also was the first opera I've ever heard in full, actually; and the finale of Europa Riconosciuta  is one of those melodies that sometimes turn on in my head and I neither can nor want to turn it off. Piano concerto in B is nice too. Requiem in C minor is great piece in my opinion, I think it's my favorite of Salieri's works.


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## Novelette

His Concerto for Flute and Oboe in C is a wonderful work, too!


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## KenOC

Lukecash12 said:


> No problem. His _La Follia di Spagna_ variations are amongst my favorite classical works.


Interesting fact: This set of Salieri variations is the first known example of standalone and purely orchestral theme and variations (_i.e_., not featuring a solo instrument). Some printed authorities give that distinction to Brahms's Haydn Variations, but Salieri was there first!


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## peeyaj

I like Saliere. He's the the teacher of Schubert, Beethoven and Liszt.


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## EddieRUKiddingVarese

Presently listening to his Triple Concerto D major- Pleasant enough


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## Albert7

Very cool composer... the movie Amadeus was pretty off I think.


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## PlaySalieri

There's a disc of the London Mozart players doing some Salieri symphonies - some reviewers on amazon rave about it - has anyone heard these works? 
I just listened to one of his 2 piano concertos on youtube - cant say I was impressed - pleasant enough but not worth listening to again.


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## Aramis

stomanek said:


> There's a disc of the London Mozart players doing some Salieri symphonies - some reviewers on amazon rave about it - has anyone heard these works?


They are rather pleasant shorties, recommended for those who like to explore classicism outside Viennese Classics.


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## Sloe

Albert7 said:


> Very cool composer... the movie Amadeus was pretty off I think.


If Mozart was like he was in that film I would be as frustrated as Salieri too.


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## MonagFam

Why was he essentially portrayed as a villain in the movie?


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## Stirling

Because there needed to be one.


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## Antony

nefigah said:


> Hmm, so when _Amadeus_ had him dub himself "The Patron Saint of Mediocrity," it wasn't far from the truth, eh? Not hearing much love in this thread


Even his music is not famous, and he was the villain in the movie, He was friend of Mozart, teacher of some pupils who become later great names : Beethoven, Schubert and Liszt. He must be proud of them
How many teachers can claim to have such great pupils?

When I Think to live side by side with those genius....and learn from them, teach them and attend their -first- ..I envy him, Saliery and his -supposed- mediocrity .


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## Sloe

Antony said:


> Even his music is not famous, and he was the villain in the movie, He was friend of Mozart, teacher of some pupils who become later great names : Beethoven, Schubert and Liszt. He must be proud of them
> How many teachers can claim to have such great pupils?
> 
> When I Think to live side by side with those genius....and learn from them, teach them and attend their -first- ..I envy him, Saliery and his -supposed- mediocrity .


He have been dead for nearly 200 years and his music is still played and listened to regularly today.
I would say that is rather good.


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## EdwardBast

MonagFam said:


> Why was he essentially portrayed as a villain in the movie?


One reason is because the screenplay writer for Amadeus ripped off the play _Mozart and Salieri_ by Alexander Pushkin, borrowing whole paragraphs of dialogue, as well as some major plot points - without crediting the author - and that is how Pushkin wrote it.


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## PlaySalieri

Sloe said:


> He have been dead for nearly 200 years and his music is still played and listened to regularly today.
> I would say that is rather good.


I wonder if it would be listened to at all if it were not for a certain film which brought him into the public eye.


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## MonagFam

EdwardBast said:


> One reason is because the screenplay writer for Amadeus ripped off the play _Mozart and Salieri_ by Alexander Pushkin, borrowing whole paragraphs of dialogue, as well as some major plot points - without crediting the author - and that is how Pushkin wrote it.


Thanks. So what was Pushkin's motivation?


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## Sloe

stomanek said:


> I wonder if it would be listened to at all if it were not for a certain film which brought him into the public eye.


Here is a recording from 1982:


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## EdwardBast

MonagFam said:


> Thanks. So what was Pushkin's motivation?


The joy of slandering the innocent? Starting a rumor that would go on for centuries? Seriously, I think he probably wanted to explore the relationship of an unexceptional artist to a genius. That whole bit from Amadeus where Salieri asks God why he gave the divine spark to Mozart comes pretty much directly from Pushkin.

You could just read Pushkin if you are curious. Two other of his short plays, Boris Godunov and The Miserly Knight, have some importance for music history because of their operatic settings by Musorgsky and Rachmaninoff respectively. And I know someone must have composed an opera based on Mozart and Salieri as well.


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## Sloe

EdwardBast said:


> The joy of slandering the innocent? Starting a rumor that would go on for centuries? Seriously, I think he probably wanted to explore the relationship of an unexceptional artist to a genius. That whole bit from Amadeus where Salieri asks God why he gave the divine spark to Mozart comes pretty much directly from Pushkin.
> 
> You could just read Pushkin if you are curious. Two other of his short plays, Boris Godunov and The Miserly Knight, have some importance for music history because of their operatic settings by Musorgsky and Rachmaninoff respectively. And I know someone must have composed an opera based on Mozart and Salieri as well.


Someone have.






https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mozart_and_Salieri_(opera)


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## Abraham Lincoln

I really feel bad for him, to be honest. All those years spent working his face off for the glory of music only to wind up being portrayed in the media as a jealous hate-filled hate sink in the years and years to come. It's horribly unfair. Just what did he ever do to deserve this?


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## Dim7

Abraham Lincoln said:


> I really feel bad for him, to be honest. All those years spent working his face off for the glory of music only to wind up being portrayed in the media as a jealous hate-filled hate sink in the years and years to come. It's horribly unfair. Just what did he ever do to deserve this?


I don't know - the other alternative would have been to be forgotten entirely.


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## Abraham Lincoln

Dim7 said:


> I don't know - the other alternative would have been to be forgotten entirely.


That's what hipsters are for!


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## Guest

Let us not forget that Bach was forgotten in the years after his death. Only a few dedicated composers and conductors kept his memory alive. We're quite lucky to even have the Brandenburg Concertos. They were forgotten and not published until around 1849 or so. Bach had high hopes for these pieces but the Margrave of Brandenburg didn't care for them. Although considered Bach's greatest work, no one on Bach's time, including Bach, ever heard them performed in public. In fact, as a composer, Bach was virtually unknown in his day. He was famous as an organist.

Mahler was apparently known better as a conductor in his time than as a composer. If a critics had slagged Mahler's compositions or Bach's when people first started playing them, they might still be forgotten. There is luck, not just skill, involved. Salieri didn't quite have luck on his side.

Mozart was so highly regarded in his time that they buried him in an unmarked grave.

Scott Joplin was entirely forgotten after his death in 1917 and was remembered only because of the movie "The Sting" which still causes many to think he wrote his pieces in the 1930s! In the 30s, only a few dedicated jazz musicians had any idea who he was.

Let us not forget artists as Van Gogh who couldn't give his paintings away and is probably the most forged artist today. Once, some museum tried to assemble a bunch of Van Goghs from different galleries for an exhibit and were somewhat nonplussed to receive several "originals" of the same painting! Vermeer wasn't well known until after his death. Now considered one of the greatest of the Dutch painters.

Francis Barraud painted hundreds of pictures and did illustrations for countless books and magazines but is only remembered for one work:


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## Sloe

Victor Redseal said:


> Mozart was so highly regarded in his time that they buried him in an unmarked grave.
> 
> Let us not forget artists as Van Gogh who couldn't give his paintings away and is probably the most forged artist today. Once, some museum tried to assemble a bunch of Van Goghs from different galleries for an exhibit and were somewhat nonplussed to receive several "originals" of the same painting!


The reason why Mozart was burried in an unmarked grave was becauce everyone who did not belong to the nobility was burried in unmarked graves in Wienna at that time.
Van Gogh became well known nearly right after his death.

Considering that he was a bad composer yes he was not as good as Mozart but is that necessary to be a good composer? So what if there were a few better composers.


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## Guest

Everybody is better than somebody and worse than somebody else. Even if people agree Stravinsky was a better composer that Prokofiev (and i'm not saying he was or wasn't), does that mean Prokofiev deserves to be forgotten?

As for Mozart, you would have thought some wealthy patron would have thought enough of him to erect some kind of memorial but doesn't appear to be the case.


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## PlaySalieri

Victor Redseal said:


> Let us not forget that Bach was forgotten in the years after his death. Only a few dedicated composers and conductors kept his memory alive. We're quite lucky to even have the Brandenburg Concertos. They were forgotten and not published until around 1849 or so. Bach had high hopes for these pieces but the Margrave of Brandenburg didn't care for them. Although considered Bach's greatest work, no one on Bach's time, including Bach, ever heard them performed in public. In fact, as a composer, Bach was virtually unknown in his day. He was famous as an organist.
> 
> Mahler was apparently known better as a conductor in his time than as a composer. If a critics had slagged Mahler's compositions or Bach's when people first started playing them, they might still be forgotten. There is luck, not just skill, involved. Salieri didn't quite have luck on his side.
> 
> Mozart was so highly regarded in his time that they buried him in an unmarked grave.
> 
> Scott Joplin was entirely forgotten after his death in 1917 and was remembered only because of the movie "The Sting" which still causes many to think he wrote his pieces in the 1930s! In the 30s, only a few dedicated jazz musicians had any idea who he was.
> 
> Let us not forget artists as Van Gogh who couldn't give his paintings away and is probably the most forged artist today. Once, some museum tried to assemble a bunch of Van Goghs from different galleries for an exhibit and were somewhat nonplussed to receive several "originals" of the same painting! Vermeer wasn't well known until after his death. Now considered one of the greatest of the Dutch painters.
> 
> Francis Barraud painted hundreds of pictures and did illustrations for countless books and magazines but is only remembered for one work:


Some good points - but Salieri is unlikely to be accepted into the composer's hall of fame - there has been ample time in the last 250 years for the public and scholarship to decide whether or not to listen to him. There is also a lot of interest and many new recordings of obscure composers and repertoire and while many new names pop up - not one of them has really made the headlines - there are no major champions of Salieri's work - in the way that Mahler and R Strauss (2 major figures in their time) championed the work of Mozart ( and later Beecham, Busch and many others ). Apart from Bach - there are really no major new names in the top 10 accepted greatest composers who have come to prominence in the last 100 years and there probably will not be any change in that as the decades go by.

I have listened to quite a bit of Salieri in the last week or so - want to give him a chance - his music is not without merit - some of it rises above the ordinary at times and the orchestral work is pleasant to listen to. But it's just not special enough and it is hard to imagine how he was so well regarded in his era - a musical charlatan perhaps who knew how to conduct himself at court and was hence given opportunities his abilities did not merit. Perhaps - then not much has changed. Today, the musical conservatoires are run by mediocrities by themselves for themselves - some real talents are marginalised while many are given openings just because they are favourites of or related to those in power.

Fortunately - all those ******** who wanted to silence Mozart at the time are now well dead and buried - nobody is going to gain anything by keeping *him* silent - and posterity has dealt fitting justice to senor Salieri and his cronies.


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## Mahlerian

Victor Redseal said:


> Mahler was apparently known better as a conductor in his time than as a composer. If a critics had slagged Mahler's compositions or Bach's when people first started playing them, they might still be forgotten.


Contemporary critics _did_ slag Mahler's compositions, and mercilessly. He was mocked for everything you can imagine, up to and including his being Jewish, but also incomprehensibility, noisiness, cacophony, tunelessness, screeching, atonality, and all the rest.

One obituary writer claimed that his compositions would clearly not survive him.


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## Guest

As I said, there's luck involved. You can tear someone down all day and people still like them or you can praise them to high heaven and they still can't catch a break.


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## Guest

From Wiki:

However, even with Mozart and Salieri being rivals for certain jobs, there is very little evidence that the relationship between the two composers was at all acrimonious beyond this, especially after 1785 or so when Mozart had become established in Vienna. Rather, they appeared to usually see each other as friends and colleagues and supported each other's work. For example, when Salieri was appointed Kapellmeister in 1788 he revived Figaro instead of bringing out a new opera of his own; and when he went to the coronation festivities for Leopold II in 1790 he had no fewer than three Mozart masses in his luggage. Salieri and Mozart even composed a cantata for voice and piano together, called Per la ricuperata salute di Ophelia, which celebrated the return to stage of the singer Nancy Storace. This work has been lost, although it had been printed by Artaria in 1785. Mozart's Davide penitente (1785), his Piano Concerto KV 482 (1785), the Clarinet Quintet (1789) and the 40th Symphony (1788) had been premiered on the suggestion of Salieri, who supposedly conducted a performance of it in 1791. In his last surviving letter from 14 October 1791, Mozart tells his wife that he collected Salieri and Caterina Cavalieri in his carriage and drove them both to the opera; about Salieri's attendance at his opera The Magic Flute, speaking enthusiastically: "He heard and saw with all his attention, and from the overture to the last choir there was not a piece that didn't elicit a 'Bravo!' or 'Bello!' out of him [...]."[42]

Salieri, along with Mozart's protégé J. N. Hummel, educated Mozart's younger son Franz Xaver Mozart, who was born in the year his father died.


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## PlaySalieri

Victor Redseal said:


> From Wiki:
> 
> However, even with Mozart and Salieri being rivals for certain jobs, there is very little evidence that the relationship between the two composers was at all acrimonious beyond this, especially after 1785 or so when Mozart had become established in Vienna. Rather, they appeared to usually see each other as friends and colleagues and supported each other's work. For example, when Salieri was appointed Kapellmeister in 1788 he revived Figaro instead of bringing out a new opera of his own; and when he went to the coronation festivities for Leopold II in 1790 he had no fewer than three Mozart masses in his luggage. Salieri and Mozart even composed a cantata for voice and piano together, called Per la ricuperata salute di Ophelia, which celebrated the return to stage of the singer Nancy Storace. This work has been lost, although it had been printed by Artaria in 1785. Mozart's Davide penitente (1785), his Piano Concerto KV 482 (1785), the Clarinet Quintet (1789) and the 40th Symphony (1788) had been premiered on the suggestion of Salieri, who supposedly conducted a performance of it in 1791. In his last surviving letter from 14 October 1791, Mozart tells his wife that he collected Salieri and Caterina Cavalieri in his carriage and drove them both to the opera; about Salieri's attendance at his opera The Magic Flute, speaking enthusiastically: "He heard and saw with all his attention, and from the overture to the last choir there was not a piece that didn't elicit a 'Bravo!' or 'Bello!' out of him [...]."[42]
> 
> Salieri, along with Mozart's protégé J. N. Hummel, educated Mozart's younger son Franz Xaver Mozart, who was born in the year his father died.


I know - they were not enemies it seems.


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## PlaySalieri

Victor Redseal said:


> As I said, there's luck involved. You can tear someone down all day and people still like them or you can praise them to high heaven and they still can't catch a break.


time and posterity has a way of levelling


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## Guest

It also takes someone to preserve your work. Someone saved a copy of the Brandenburg Concertos--a single copy. If they hadn't, we wouldn't have it today. It's a shame no one saved the Mozart-Salieri collaboration. It may still be around somewhere--in the attics of old money maybe.


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## Guest

I've got a CD of 2 Salieri piano concertos. Know what? They're just fine for what they are. Is there a problem (in any shape or form) about that? If there is, bring it on.


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## PlaySalieri

TalkingHead said:


> I've got a CD of 2 Salieri piano concertos. Know what? They're just fine for what they are. Is there a problem (in any shape or form) about that? If there is, bring it on.


and I have a copy of stephen king's IT

know what - that's fine for what it is too

if there's any problem with that bring it on


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## PlaySalieri

Victor Redseal said:


> From Wiki:
> 
> However, even with Mozart and Salieri being rivals for certain jobs, there is very little evidence that the relationship between the two composers was at all acrimonious beyond this, especially after 1785 or so when Mozart had become established in Vienna. Rather, they appeared to usually see each other as friends and colleagues and supported each other's work. For example, when Salieri was appointed Kapellmeister in 1788 he revived Figaro instead of bringing out a new opera of his own; and when he went to the coronation festivities for Leopold II in 1790 he had no fewer than three Mozart masses in his luggage. Salieri and Mozart even composed a cantata for voice and piano together, called Per la ricuperata salute di Ophelia, which celebrated the return to stage of the singer Nancy Storace. This work has been lost, although it had been printed by Artaria in 1785. Mozart's Davide penitente (1785), his Piano Concerto KV 482 (1785), the Clarinet Quintet (1789) and the 40th Symphony (1788) had been premiered on the suggestion of Salieri, who supposedly conducted a performance of it in 1791. In his last surviving letter from 14 October 1791, Mozart tells his wife that he collected Salieri and Caterina Cavalieri in his carriage and drove them both to the opera; about Salieri's attendance at his opera The Magic Flute, speaking enthusiastically: "He heard and saw with all his attention, and from the overture to the last choir there was not a piece that didn't elicit a 'Bravo!' or 'Bello!' out of him [...]."[42]
> 
> Salieri, along with Mozart's protégé J. N. Hummel, educated Mozart's younger son Franz Xaver Mozart, who was born in the year his father died.


You have to read between the lines with much of this.
It must have been quite a humiliation for M to put on an opera at Schikanaders music hall - not sure if Salieri would have done it. so he shouted bravo to all the arias - dont take that at face value - he may have been revelling in Mozart's humiliation.
Salieri was an opera composer - he did not compose church music generally - and having Mozart's masses in his luggage may have simply been a practicality - he may have been asked to bring some Mozart masses - you dont know. sy no 40 - Mozart was already dead and out of the way. It may have been a courtesy to Constanze and S may have seen some value in doing her a good turn or two. Composers who collaborate and not necessarily well disposed to each other - we dont know the exact reasons behind this joint effort which is lost. Goodness knows how it could have worked in a practical sense.
Leopold clearly believed that Salieri was in league against his son and he must have had reasons for this belief. Emperor Joseph was a big Mozart fan - and yet did little to help him - which seems very odd indeed.


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## Guest

stomanek said:


> You have to read between the lines with much of this.
> It must have been quite a humiliation for M to put on an opera at Schikanaders music hall - not sure if Salieri would have done it. so he shouted bravo to all the arias - dont take that at face value - he may have been revelling in Mozart's humiliation.


I doubt it. More likely, Mozart was turning to comedic operas either because he admired Salieri's (who was probably the most famous of the comedic opera composers in Vienna) or Salieri advised him to try it out and was pleased that Mozart took him up on it.



> Salieri was an opera composer - he did not compose church music generally - and having Mozart's masses in his luggage may have simply been a practicality - he may have been asked to bring some Mozart masses - you dont know.


Neither do you.



> sy no 40 - Mozart was already dead and out of the way. It may have been a courtesy to Constanze and S may have seen some value in doing her a good turn or two. Composers who collaborate and not necessarily well disposed to each other - we dont know the exact reasons behind this joint effort which is lost. Goodness knows how it could have worked in a practical sense.


Probably because the singer in question knew and admired both men and asked them to work together to provide her with something to perform. Clearly, if both men hated each other, it never would have happened. Just Mozart's own descriptions of Salieri's enjoyment of his work would indicate that Mozart held him in some regard--if not as a composer then as a teacher (and the very fact that he taught Mozart's son would bear this out)--and that Salieri's approval meant something to him. And surely Salieri saw the value of the music that Mozart was making. Earlier, there would have been some rivalry because there's a limited number of gigs and both wanted them--that's natural--but it seems that as Salieri grew older and his own compositions grew more sparse, he saw Mozart as the light of Vienna musically.



> Leopold clearly believed that Salieri was in league against his son and he must have had reasons for this belief. Emperor Joseph was a big Mozart fan - and yet did little to help him - which seems very odd indeed.


Mozart's own letters complaining about Salieri was all Leopold needed to read. And there likely was truth in it when Mozart was a young upstart and Salieri recognized him as serious competition. But after Salieri's own compositional powers began to dissipate, it was also clear that he knew Mozart was the best in town and that his music would keep people talking about Vienna. There came that point from the mid 1780s to Mozart's death where both men needed each other and it likely took on a kind of teacher-student relationship.


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## PlaySalieri

*I doubt it. More likely, Mozart was turning to comedic operas either because he admired Salieri's (who was probably the most famous of the comedic opera composers in Vienna) or Salieri advised him to try it out and was pleased that Mozart took him up on it.*

But Mozart was established as a comic opera composer already. Salieri never wrote a singspiel in his life as far as I know so how M writing the M flute was inspired or advised by Salieri goodness how you work that one out.


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## PlaySalieri

*There came that point from the mid 1780s to Mozart's death where both men needed each other and it likely took on a kind of teacher-student relationship. *

must be the strangest statement I have ever read on these forums


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## Guest

stomanek said:


> But Mozart was established as a comic opera composer already. Salieri never wrote a singspiel in his life as far as I know so how M writing the M flute was inspired or advised by Salieri goodness how you work that one out.


I don't know how much advice Salieri may have given Mozart concerning the Magic Flute but I would think that Mozart at least told Salieri that he influenced it and that wouldn't have been a lie because Salieri was highly influential in Vienna. Salieri composed two singspiel operas (_Der Rauchfangkehrer_ from 1781 was quite successful). Indeed, in Vienna, he was actually considered a German composer in spite of his Italian pedigree. But, regardless, he was THE comedic opera composer of his era. His very first opera was comedic which he wrote at age 20. In fact, Salieri was highly influential in the development of opera in Vienna and enjoyed greater success and recognition in his lifetime than did Mozart. That Mozart would not have respected and studied him is a bit of a reach. John A. Rice in his book, _Antonio Salieri and Viennese Opera_ stated that Mozart's opera _Die Entführung_ that debuted the year after _Der Rauchfangkehrer_ "simultaneously paid tribute and parodied Salieri's concertante effects..." and I would be surprised if Salieri didn't know that. Maybe Salieri was miffed at first but later decided there was really no reason to be because it indicated that Mozart knew whose operas to study. Yes, I'm just speculating but speculating is all we can do at this point.

You also said earlier that Salieri didn't write church music. Here are a few pieces I found just doing a casual search:
















One of his earliest surviving pieces is _Mass in C Major_.


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## Guest

stomanek said:


> *There came that point from the mid 1780s to Mozart's death where both men needed each other and it likely took on a kind of teacher-student relationship. *
> 
> must be the strangest statement I have ever read on these forums


Why? Mozart sought Salieri's approval and that would only be because he looked up to him. Many of his works debuted at the insistence of Salieri, who was kapellmeister after all. Mozart was nearing his death in these years and maybe didn't have the energy he once did and so Salieri would have been doing him a favor in that regard. On the other hand, as kapellmeister, Salieri's job was to provide good music for occasions and he might have been grateful to Mozart for providing some since Salieri's output appeared to have started dwindling. Maybe Salieri saw Mozart as a suitable replacement as kapellmeister whenever it became necessary for Salieri to step down. The fact that both needed the other would explain the very basis of their friendship during Mozart's last years.


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## PlaySalieri

Victor Redseal said:


> Why? Mozart sought Salieri's approval and that would only be because he looked up to him. Many of his works debuted at the insistence of Salieri, who was kapellmeister after all. Mozart was nearing his death in these years and maybe didn't have the energy he once did and so Salieri would have been doing him a favor in that regard. On the other hand, as kapellmeister, Salieri's job was to provide good music for occasions and he might have been grateful to Mozart for providing some since Salieri's output appeared to have started dwindling. Maybe Salieri saw Mozart as a suitable replacement as kapellmeister whenever it became necessary for Salieri to step down. The fact that both needed the other would explain the very basis of their friendship during Mozart's last years.


you are basing a lot of this on the fact Mozart has a carriage take Salieri to the perf of his opera. I think you overestimate at any rate the part played by salieri in Mozart's life and art.
Salieri was an institution figure and yes M may have played up to him at times but only in the hope that he may finally land a lucrative court position and not because he highly esteemed his ability. He respected the ability of the haydn brothers - we know that from his letters - but not Salieri though he did use ideas from whatever source he found valuable - so Salieri's operas may have provided him with one or two ideas particularly if Salieri's style was in fashion.

It's all irrelevent really - Salieri is a footnote in Mozart's career and that his his premiere role in the history of music.


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## KenOC

Mozart and Salieri...didn't Mozart say all Italians were charlatans? Can't find the quote right now.

Here it is. "Clementi is a charlatan, like all Italians."


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## Guest

KenOC said:


> Mozart and Salieri...didn't Mozart say all Italians were charlatans? Can't find the quote right now.
> 
> Here it is. "Clementi is a charlatan, like all Italians."


But Salieri was considered in Vienna to be a German composer. From Wiki:

Ironically, Salieri's music was much more in the tradition of Gluck and Gassmann than of the Italians like Paisiello or Cimarosa. In 1772, Empress Maria Theresa commented on her preference of Italian composers over Germans like Gassmann, Salieri or Gluck. While Italian by birth, Salieri had lived in imperial Vienna for almost 60 years and was regarded by such people as the music critic Friedrich Rochlitz as a German composer.[39]

At any rate, there did seem to be a bond between Salieri and Mozart according to New Grove:

_Mozart was interred in a common grave, in accordance with contemporary Viennese custom, at the St. Marx Cemetery outside the city on 7 December. If, as later reports say, no mourners attended, that too is consistent with Viennese burial customs at the time; later Jahn (1856) wrote that Salieri, Süssmayr, van Swieten and two other musicians were present._

One thing that worked against Salieri, I believe, was that he lived long after his music stopped and so became a kind of forgotten man. Mozart died young and near the height of his fame. "The Magic Flute" was highly popular shortly after it debuted so that when he died, there was a mad rush on his music. By the time poor Salieri died, no one really cared. His flame had gone out long before and his pieces now dated and rarely played, if ever.


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## PlaySalieri

Victor Redseal said:


> But Salieri was considered in Vienna to be a German composer. From Wiki:
> 
> Ironically, Salieri's music was much more in the tradition of Gluck and Gassmann than of the Italians like Paisiello or Cimarosa. In 1772, Empress Maria Theresa commented on her preference of Italian composers over Germans like Gassmann, Salieri or Gluck. While Italian by birth, Salieri had lived in imperial Vienna for almost 60 years and was regarded by such people as the music critic Friedrich Rochlitz as a German composer.[39]
> 
> At any rate, there did seem to be a bond between Salieri and Mozart according to New Grove:
> 
> _Mozart was interred in a common grave, in accordance with contemporary Viennese custom, at the St. Marx Cemetery outside the city on 7 December. If, as later reports say, no mourners attended, that too is consistent with Viennese burial customs at the time; later Jahn (1856) wrote that Salieri, Süssmayr, van Swieten and two other musicians were present._
> 
> *One thing that worked against Salieri, I believe, was that he lived long after his music stopped and so became a kind of forgotten man. Mozart died young and near the height of his fame. "The Magic Flute" was highly popular shortly after it debuted so that when he died, there was a mad rush on his music. By the time poor Salieri died, no one really cared. His flame had gone out long before and his pieces now dated and rarely played, if ever.*


Yes but with the exception of some of his operas - and the so called advances of the romantic movement in the musical world - most of Mozart's music was forgotten - just like Salieri. 
A bit later towards the end of the century - the tide began to turn - and figures like Brahms, Wagner, Tchaikovsky Mahler and R Strauss declared him a supreme composer.
Since the end of Salieri's heyday nobody of any note, as far as I know - has shown much enthusiasm for Salieri - and that's really nothing to do with bad luck but I am glad to see some of his compositions appearing on CD and performances on youtube and I genuinely hope it will continue to be so.


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## PlaySalieri

BTW I am touched that Salieri was at Mozart's funeral - if indeed that source can be relied upon it is indeed touching.


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## vesteel

I really really love his opera overtures. this is one of my favorites:


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## francesco

Too much Hollywood, that trama it's totally fake


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## Dimace

View attachment 109149


I have listened this one. Somehow simple but not bad at all. (there are three or four recordings of this opera. The EMI's is the best. I like also this one:

View attachment 109150


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## vesteel

Little fun fact: One of the things that made Berlioz study music was because of Salieri's Les Danaides. I think he quoted a bit of that opera in his Les Troyens


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## Dimace

vesteel said:


> Little fun fact: One of the things that made Berlioz study music was because of Salieri's Les Danaides. I think he quoted a bit of that opera in his Les Troyens


Don't forget the Gluck and the Boieldieu. From Gluck he has taken the basics for his symphonies. From his fellow Frenchman those for his operas. (thanks for the info. I didn't about Salieri's influence...)


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## Durendal

I have a CD of opera overtures by him. They're very nice, typical of the era. Not incredibly memorable however.


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## PlaySalieri

Durendal said:


> I have a CD of opera overtures by him. They're very nice, typical of the era. Not incredibly memorable however.


What you have stated is true of the vast majority of music from the 18thC classical era. It's virtually all nice and typical.

But also not memorable.

Why it is that most listeners seem to have found Salieri operas more to their taste than Mozart's obviously superior works is just baffling. On another thread we have been comparing Le Nozze to Il Barbiere and even Rossini fans more or less acknowledge that Nozze is in a different league. And barbiere is in a far higher league than Salieri. Yet Nozze played just 9 times in its first run at the Burghtheatre while Salieri's operas were the toast of Vienna. Even Da Ponte only worked with Mozart when Salieri rebuffed him - as he did with the Cosi libretto - Da Ponte first went to Salieri and then Mozart. So we have Salieri to thank for Cosi - cheers Antonio!


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## Meyerbeer Smith

Dimace said:


> View attachment 109149
> 
> 
> I have listened this one. Somehow simple but not bad at all. (there are three or four recordings of this opera. The EMI's is the best. I like also this one:
> 
> View attachment 109150


Yes, _Les Danaïdes_ is terrific - and worthy of Berlioz's admiration! It's not quite Gluck (what, really, is?), but it's a gripping opera, with an appalling choice between father and lover for the heroine; either decision will lead to death for someone.

The score is bold and imaginative, from the stormy, turbulent, string-heavy overture to the tableau of the Danaides in Hell. The young Berlioz was blown away, and one can hear echoes of the final scene in _La damnation de Faust_. In between, there are massive choruses, great arias for the soprano, and a handful for her father and her lover.

It's not Mozart, but it's a triumph in a genre Mozart never tackled.

If this is mediocrity, let's have more of it.

And David LeMarrec (http://operacritiques.free.fr/css/) is doing a series on _Tarare_.


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