# I have a problem. Or do I...



## LarryShone (Aug 29, 2014)

You see the thing is it seems the people on this forum have far superior knowledge of classical music than me. Oh I'm no 'newbie'. I was favouring classical music back when I was a schoolkid in short trousers, and I have studied the lives of the various composers ever since. I think I have a decent knowledge of music and its history but I can not discern between a work conducted by Solti and the same work under Blomstedt for example. You all seem so knowledgeable compared to me. Also I cannot stomach opera or any kind of singing in that style. (I do like choral music however)
Is it because I'm working class and many seem middle class? I doubt it.
Classical music does tend to get associated with the hoy palloy or 'old people', yet I cant help loving it. I'm not particularly well educated, but I'm not stupid either. I love all kinds of music (well, most anyway) and have a fascination with musical instruments and music history.

So please don't castigate me for not liking opera or not being able to stomach Wagner. Its just not my thing.
Just the way I'm put together I guess. It's strange really, I am the only member in my (large) family that really likes classical. I grew up pretty much a loner and music became my friend. Years later I got my older sister into classical and persuaded her to buy an LP of Holst Planets Suite.

I have tried to listen to opera but I cant get past the warbling voice, it irritates me. And yet I admire the people involved. Callas was a legend in her field and so was Pavarotti (I can actually listen to Nessum Dorma).


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## joen_cph (Jan 17, 2010)

Your taste might change or not, but that´s OK, of course. I never liked Verdi, except from a few works, & I overall don´t like Callas, in spite of 30 years of interest in classical music. I don´t think this will change, but who knows ... 

People of course tend to comment on subjects they have at least some knowledge on and affection for, another bunch then being absent ;-). 

That said, singers are extremely different in their approach to music and the character of their voice, and this means that a singer can change one´s perception of a piece - or a genre - a lot.


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## arpeggio (Oct 4, 2012)

joen_cph said:


> Your taste might change or not, but that´s OK, of course. I never liked Verdi, except from a few works, & I overall don´t like Callas, in spite of 30 years of interest in classical music. I don´t think this will change, but who knows ...
> 
> People of course tend to comment on subjects they have at least some knowledge on and affection for, another bunch then being absent ;-).
> 
> That said, singers are extremely different in their approach to music and the character of their voice, and this means that a singer can change one´s perception of a piece - or a genre - a lot.


I'm with 'joen_cph' on this.

Classical music has such a rich diverse tradition it is impossible to know and like everything. The fact that a person may not understand Verdi or Mozart or Stockhausen means nothing. Listen to what you enjoy and do not worry about the music you do not get.


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## Bruce (Jan 2, 2013)

I wouldn't worry. I can't distinguish between different conductors, either, except in very rare cases. Some people will have rather narrow tastes, but will often acquire a much deeper appreciation of what they like. Others may have wide ranging tastes, and yet not quite feel as deeply as you do about certain works. To each his own certainly applies in this case, and doesn't mean anything regarding intelligence, experience, class, upbringing, or any other characteristic of an individual. 

If you're interested in learning more about different genres and/or works, I found what has worked best for me is simply listening to as much as I could. Like you, I never cared much for opera, but I always thought I was missing something. The way I learned to like it was by putting on operas and listening to them while doing some other activity which left enough mental concentration to attend at least partly to the opera, like putting together a jigsaw puzzle. I'd spend maybe a half hour a day doing this, and found that after a while I began to hear things in opera which I enjoyed, and gradually developed a taste for it. I also remember when I was much younger, I never cared for modern music. (And at that time, even the piano music of Alexander Scriabin sounded modern to my ears.) So I just started listening to as much as I could, and gradually acquired a taste for it. So it seems to me that simple exposure to a certain style or genre begins to develop patterns of listening which allow one to begin to appreciate different art forms. 

That said, however, what matters is what you like. Music is to be enjoyed--as much an emotional response as an intellectual one, if not more. If certain music doesn't resonate with you, there's not much point in spending a whole lot of time with it that could be spent enjoying something.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

LarryShone said:


> You see the thing is it seems the people on this forum have far superior knowledge of classical music than me. Oh I'm no 'newbie'. I was favouring classical music back when I was a schoolkid in short trousers, and I have studied the lives of the various composers ever since. I think I have a decent knowledge of music and its history but I can not discern between a work conducted by Solti and the same work under Blomstedt for example. You all seem so knowledgeable compared to me. Also I cannot stomach opera or any kind of singing in that style. (I do like choral music however)
> Is it because I'm working class and many seem middle class? I doubt it.
> Classical music does tend to get associated with the hoy palloy or 'old people', yet I cant help loving it. I'm not particularly well educated, but I'm not stupid either. I love all kinds of music (well, most anyway) and have a fascination with musical instruments and music history.
> 
> ...


The more you listen; the more you love, when music becomes a real passion, the better you will get at being able to discern good performances from mediocre. It takes time. It will come. Stay with it!!


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## LarryShone (Aug 29, 2014)

Thanks guys. I have a problem relating to certain composers, Bartok being one, Boulez another. To me it's like rap; I don't see it as music. There's something missing from it. I keep trying to like Bartok but it never works. And really I should stop trying.


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## brotagonist (Jul 11, 2013)

No, OP, I don't think you have a problem (with your understanding and appreciation of classical music).

Lots of listeners here can't distinguish between one conductor and another. We recognize differences in tempo, idiosyncrasies or whatever, but to really know a conductor's style is difficult for a non-performer, I think. Even to be able to recognize a piece as being of a certain composer stumps many of us, although the styles of the composers start to become identifiable with committed listening.

Opera does not appear to appeal to the majority of TCers. Most of us have listened some, but the minority are operaphiles. I found that listening to art songs (Lieder, chansons) helped me get over the odd singing style. I still find it nearly impossible to understand more than the occasional word, but it is not as unapproachable as it initially seemed. Still, opera is somewhat a world of its own, I think.

Part of the problem is that most people seem to turn to classical music because it is instrumental music... absolute music (sure, there are programmatic works, but, without knowledge of or attention to the program, it's 'meaning' is vague and indeterminate). This is what makes (instrumental) classical music timeless: its message is purely musical and not literal. I am referring to the meaning of the music, not to the style of the period in which it was composed: baroque, classical, romantic, etc. Opera, however, has a set storyline that gives it a plot and places it in time. If you don't like that story, then it has limited potential to appeal to you.

I don't associate classical music with the aged. Most older people (in these parts) are more likely to like Hank Williams or Frank Sinatra or the Beatles or Chubby Checker than they are to like classical music. Rather, I think liking classical music is a passion of the musically (self-)educated, as it takes some interest and commitment to really get a lot out of it.


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## LarryShone (Aug 29, 2014)

Thank you brotagonist. That makes perfect sense! Im glad I'm not the only one that doesnt get opera!


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

LarryShone said:


> Thanks guys. I have a problem relating to certain composers, Bartok being one, Boulez another. To me it's like rap; I don't see it as music. There's something missing from it. I keep trying to like Bartok but it never works. And really I should stop trying.


Have you listened to Bartok's Concerto for Orchestra? His Third Piano Concerto? If not, try those works. They are much more traditionally euphonious than most of the others. If those appeal to you, I suspect you might find yourself drawn into some of the rougher ones as well. On the other hand, if you hate those, you should probably give up.

As for classically trained vocalists, that is a tough one. I had a similar aversion. What changed things for me was finding songs and operas for which I found the musical characterization or the words compelling. Essentially, I put up with the annoying bellowing and warbling because of the other factors and eventually found I didn't mind the style as much any more.

To answer your more direct question: It's only a problem if you think you are missing something.


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## Fugue Meister (Jul 5, 2014)

LarryShone said:


> Thanks guys. I have a problem relating to certain composers, Bartok being one, Boulez another. To me it's like rap; I don't see it as music. There's something missing from it. I keep trying to like Bartok but it never works. And really I should stop trying.


What Bartok have you tried or keep trying?, that might be a problem right there... If you haven't heard his piano concertos maybe give them a try the 3rd in particular has more of a "romantic" era flair to it.


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## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

TC actually has a lot of younger people; our second biggest demographic in polls is often 21-30. Many of them are music students (performance or composition), some others are just really big enthusiasts.

As for the music you don't like, of course you're allowed to have any taste or opinion you like. If others are arguing with you, remember it's really not about you personally, as much as it might feel like it at times. I don't ever want someone to feel pressured into thinking that they "should" like something; that's a way to more easily generate hatred and disaffection than love and appreciation.

Regarding the operatic voice, I developed a taste for it pretty quickly after I got into Mahler, although I had loved Beethoven's Ninth for a long time and considered the singing part and parcel of the whole thing. It's an acquired taste for many partially because it sounds so different from other types of singing that we're more used to.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

LarryShone said:


> Thanks guys. I have a problem relating to certain composers, Bartok being one, Boulez another. To me it's like rap; I don't see it as music. There's something missing from it. I keep trying to like Bartok but it never works. And really I should stop trying.


I really think what you raise here is difficult. You see, Bartok and Boulez wrote music, I'm sure of it, and if you can't see it as music, that's a limitation. The danger is that you cut yourself off from the modern, and that's . . . really terrible.


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## LarryShone (Aug 29, 2014)

I do like some modern. Takemitsu, Taverner and Part for example. But a lot of 'modern classical' is inaccessible to me.


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## bigshot (Nov 22, 2011)

Taste comes with experience. So does discernment. As long as you keep listening and keep thinking and keep an open mind to music you haven't listened to in the past, you'll keep growing. Stop doing any one of those things and your musical journey will stop dead.


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## LarryShone (Aug 29, 2014)

Im currently ripping a disk containing Wagner's Siegried Idyll, as well as Faure's Requiem. Requiems I can deal with. Also I like Gorecki symphony 3 with Dawn Upshaw.


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## SONNET CLV (May 31, 2014)

LarryShone said:


> You see the thing is it seems the people on this forum have far superior knowledge of classical music than me. Oh I'm no 'newbie'. I was favouring classical music back when I was a schoolkid in short trousers, and I have studied the lives of the various composers ever since. I think I have a decent knowledge of music and its history *but I can not discern between a work conducted by Solti and the same work under Blomstedt for example*. You all seem so knowledgeable compared to me.


Well ... I guess I'll let you in on the secret.

There really is only _one _conductor, but he uses different names because of legal issues. We who have far superior knowledge of classical music simply go along with the ruse so as to not make waves. Classical music performers have enough problems to deal with nowadays, what with the likes of hip-hop music and Justin Bieber to contend with.


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## LarryShone (Aug 29, 2014)

Ha ha good one Sonnet!
But I used the conductor just as an example at random. I dont know if I could discern a good piano performance from a bad one. Beethoven piano sonatas for example, Peter Katin vs Alfred Brendel. I doubt I could judge who did a better job of interpreting the work!


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## Haydn man (Jan 25, 2014)

Carry on enjoying what you like because that is exactly what most of us do.
I find that as I keep trying new works then my tastes are steadily expanding and my enjoyment growing. But like you I struggle with Opera, for me it less the voices and more the plot/dialogue that I find ridiculous. I realise that this is a personal thing and keep trying operatic works from time to time as my wife likes opera.


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## Giordano (Aug 10, 2014)

I actually used to enjoy opera performances. Now I don't. I still like (some) opera music, and I still like a few singers.... Generally, I think the style of opera singing is what most people are not able to appreciate. Whatever the reasons are, I don't think it's a good idea to force anything on yourself. 

I would say that... you should live and learn... and actively and diligently pursue your interests, whatever they are. That's the quickest way of gaining a deeper understanding of art. IMO...


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

LarryShone said:


> I have tried to listen to opera but I cant get past the warbling voice, it irritates me.


My uncle could not stand the warbling voice of female singers, so he told me a good opera is Boris Godunov because it had little of that in it.

Some voices warble more than others. In La Cenerentola Theresa Berganza does not warble much at all compared to Cecilia Bertoli. I don't think there is any warbling voices in the 1978 Bernstein Fidelio opera either. Fidelio is said to be an opera even someone who does not like opera can like.

Anyway, for what it is worth to you.


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## LarryShone (Aug 29, 2014)

Its not just opera I struggle with. I cant listen to Beethoven's 9th because of the voice part (is it Lieder?)
Anything like that is a no no for me.


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

LarryShone said:


> Thanks guys. I have a problem relating to certain composers, Bartok being one, Boulez another. To me it's like rap; I don't see it as music. There's something missing from it. I keep trying to like Bartok but it never works. And really I should stop trying.


You're so right about the last part. You may change, your listening habits adjust, and _later, much_ you may find something in those composers you just never heard before... but to keep aggressively and repeatedly listening to them now does no good, and probably only further confirms your hypothesis 'there is something missing,' (while there is nothing missing, but there is nothing missing in some late romantic fare -- but for me, there is a lot missing there  That shows how individual _preferences_ are even among people who are deep in classical from early childhood.

The pith of it: You like classical, you're here, and you are blessedly free of pretentions about 'knowing.' "Learned" or just an ardent fan of classical, you're free to like and not like what you do.

There are tons of entries with real information, great arguments for or against certain composers or pieces, and other threads which are nothing but a string of 'opinions.'

I'd use the site as you see fit and to your own ends. You can learn things of interest to you; people might just change your mind about some music; you will stumble across numerous suggestions of music you've never heard of that just might please you -- more to add to what you enjoy.

Oh... and welcome!


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## LarryShone (Aug 29, 2014)

Thanks Petr (is that name a reference to Tchaikovsky? )


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## CypressWillow (Apr 2, 2013)

I'm also not a huge fan of opera in general. But when the Queen of the Night commands her daughter to murder her (the daughter's) own father it sends chills up and down my spine every time. How could an aria be so horrifying in its words and yet so unbelievably beautiful in music? How can the words and music fit together so brilliantly? Diana Damrau's performance here is electrifying, wouldn't you agree? The seductive menace she projects is utterly mesmerizing. Who knew she was also a great actress? And the staging, the costumes and makeup - it all comes together so strikingly.






Wow!


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## Rangstrom (Sep 24, 2010)

Works that I like/get right off tend to lose their luster, for me, very quickly. I enjoy putting in the time and getting to know different types of music (opera is big with me), different performance styles (Solti versus von Karajan, e. g.) and different composers. All it really takes is a willingness to listen with open ears. Not that everything is equally enjoyable. Like most (all?) here, there are certain composers and performers that do not speak to me. Part of the fun is learning who resonates and who doesn't.

As an aside, you are misusing "hoi polloi".


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## GGluek (Dec 11, 2011)

Larry --

Don't ever apologize. No two classical music people agree about everything, and some don't agree about anything. Also, tastes change over time .. or not. Just go with the flow.


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## SONNET CLV (May 31, 2014)

GGluek said:


> Larry --
> 
> Don't ever apologize. No two classical music people agree about everything, and some don't agree about anything. Also, tastes change over time .. or not. Just go with the flow.


Heck, Larry. I don't even agree with _myself _half of the time. And the other half of the time I don't understand the argument well enough to know if I should agree _or_ disagree!


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## Bruce (Jan 2, 2013)

LarryShone said:


> Im currently ripping a disk containing Wagner's Siegried Idyll, as well as Faure's Requiem. Requiems I can deal with. Also I like Gorecki symphony 3 with Dawn Upshaw.


Those are certainly good places to start. Fauré's Requiem is an exceptionally beautiful example of the genre. You may also want to give the Saint-Saëns Requiem a spin. Not as pleasant throughout as the Fauré, but it has some really great music in it.

Another work which has some beautiful vocal work is Händel's Israel in Egypt. It does have some solo singing, but a lot of it is choral, and may be to your tastes.

I'll second the opinions of others here regarding Bartok: his Concerto for Orchestra and his Third Piano Concerto are both very accessible works. Boulez leaves me rather cold, too; I continue to try, but have not found any of his music which I enjoy. But there is a tremendous variation in modern musical styles. For quite a while, the style of the Darmstadt School (which Boulez was deeply involved in) dominated musical composition. However, for quite a while now, many more tonally based works have been written. Check out some of the minimalist composers, such as John Adams (his Harmonium is also vocal, and a beautiful work), or some of the symphonies of Philip Glass. And there are countless other examples of differing musical styles written within the last couple of decades which eschew the more traditional atonal and almost anti-melodic works, and adopt more accessible melodic and harmonic materials. Lots to explore! And that's one of the things that makes listening so rewarding.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

Don't worry too much about what you don't know, LarryShone. Focus on what you do know and build on it. You're not alone, there are classical listeners out there like you. I for one am similar that in my aim is to focus on the music itself rather than listen to all of the different performances. Everyone will have a different focus. In terms of opera as well, you aren't alone there, instrumental music (especially orchestral) eclipses it in terms of popularity of the classical genres overall. I am not saying this to make some agenda, in any case I love chamber music, and orchestral music eclipses that as well.

Even the most revered and talented musicians will tell you that nobody knows everything about music. If a person gives you that impression, they may well be covering up their own feelings of insecurity or need to win an argument (or something like those, so projecting themeslves more than anything else). This has certainly been the case on this forum at times in the past, but my impression is that now it is far less common than before. I would like to think this forum is about sharing knowledge, or just talking about music and other topics of interest, rather than some sort of competition.


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## Bruce (Jan 2, 2013)

LarryShone said:


> Its not just opera I struggle with. I cant listen to Beethoven's 9th because of the voice part (is it Lieder?)
> Anything like that is a no no for me.


For a long time, Beethoven's 9th was problematic for me as well. 90% of the symphony was great, but that part in the last movement with the solo singing just grated on my nerves. I still don't think Beethoven wove the various solo lines together as well as he did in other works, at least for a couple of bars, but the grand chorus singing more than balanced that out for me. I think in my case it was just a matter of getting used to it.

No, it's not quite Lieder. Lieder is just the German word for songs. Wolf, Schumann and Schubert are the most notable examples of German Lieder. Though I have grown to appreciate this type of music, I still don't care much for Schumann's and Schubert's songs. I much prefer the French composers in this genre, like Fauré and Gounod.


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## senza sordino (Oct 20, 2013)

We all have our likes and dislikes, there is no need to apologize. 

I like to attend opera, but I'm not keen on listening to it at home without video. I'm not keen on German lieder and I don't listen to much choral music or requiems. I do have a couple of opera greatest hits I occasionally listen to. These are my problems, no one else's. 

You can listen to whatever you want, like what you want. Just don't tell me what I should like. I won't tell you what you should like. Problems arise when we tell each other what the other should like.


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

LarryShone said:


> Thanks Petr (is that name a reference to Tchaikovsky? )


No! [One of my least favorite composers -- _and we're off and running in the personal preferences department, lol._]

It is a legitimate Slavic spelling, though, but an adopted form from when I was very young. Once people saw it in print, they tended to not so readily call me 'Pete.'

Now, many many moons later, I'll answer to just about anything as long as it is not mean-spirited or abusive


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## mmsbls (Mar 6, 2011)

Many classical music lovers did not like certain styles or eras of classical music at one point and later came to greatly enjoy them. I myself did not like opera or lieder (but like you I did like choral works). I also did not like Bartok and Boulez. Now I like quite a few operas and much lieder. I also like many works by Bartok and some by Boulez. Just continue to enjoy what you can and listen to what you wish. If you decide to keep trying things you have not enjoyed in the past, like so many others you may find yourself opening up to the new works and enjoying some or even many. If not, that's fine. The wonderful thing is that there's so much classical music to enjoy.


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## Triplets (Sep 4, 2014)

LarryShone said:


> You see the thing is it seems the people on this forum have far superior knowledge of classical music than me. Oh I'm no 'newbie'. I was favouring classical music back when I was a schoolkid in short trousers, and I have studied the lives of the various composers ever since. I think I have a decent knowledge of music and its history but I can not discern between a work conducted by Solti and the same work under Blomstedt for example. You all seem so knowledgeable compared to me. Also I cannot stomach opera or any kind of singing in that style. (I do like choral music however)
> Is it because I'm working class and many seem middle class? I doubt it.
> Classical music does tend to get associated with the hoy palloy or 'old people', yet I cant help loving it. I'm not particularly well educated, but I'm not stupid either. I love all kinds of music (well, most anyway) and have a fascination with musical instruments and music history.
> 
> ...


I'm not much of an Opera fan either. It isn't for lack of trying.
I don't care about your Social Class. Money is no guarantee of taste. There are plenty of stupid rich people.
You have no reason to feel inferior. Let your ears be the judge of what you like or don't like.
Music is supposed to be fun to listen to. Quit worrying.


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## bigshot (Nov 22, 2011)

I love Opera and Ballet, but they are theater music, not concert music. You can't multitask or background opera. It's more like a movie than a record. You have to watch it and follow the story and characters. If you listen to it as pure music, it seems monochromatic. If you watch it as theater, it comes alive and does things with music that concert music can't.


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## aleazk (Sep 30, 2011)

LarryShone said:


> So please don't castigate me for not liking opera or not being able to stomach Wagner. Its just not my thing.


Most people here really don't care (and I say this in a positive way) if you don't share their tastes 100%. I don't think we have 'fanatics' here.

But we do have people (myself included) that will vehemently defend certain styles, composers, etc., when they feel these things are being attacked gratuitously and unfairly.

If you perceived hostility, that's probably because you wrote things like "Ugh. Was the man tone deaf?" in reference to Bartok (a highly esteemed composer here, as well as musical modernism in general). People is reacting to that, not to your dislike of the composer.

My advice: if you don't like or get some style or composer, and you want to express that, think twice the way in you are going to say it. If you think Bartok was 'tone deaf' and that you have the right to say it, then say it. But be prepared to take responsibility for what you say and also remember that other people also has the right to think your opinion is the one that is 'tone deaf'... On the other hand, if you don't want to get involved in that kind of polemics, simply say that you don't like or get Bartok. Are you 'betraying' your beliefs because you didn't add the 'tone deaf' part? I don't think so, in my town it's simply called _tact_... Of course sometimes it's good to express yourself plainly about your beliefs. But when you are not in familiar territory (both concerning the topic and the people around you), I don't think that's the most recommendable way to proceed.

But to each his own. Do whatever you want.


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## LarryShone (Aug 29, 2014)

bigshot said:


> I love Opera and Ballet, but they are theater music, not concert music. You can't multitask or background opera. It's more like a movie than a record. You have to watch it and follow the story and characters. If you listen to it as pure music, it seems monochromatic. If you watch it as theater, it comes alive and does things with music that concert music can't.


That's kind of how I feel about opera and live rock music. Its a performance thing, as much to be seen as listened to. I find a live rock or pop album to be pointless!


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## bigshot (Nov 22, 2011)

I just got a blu-ray that has almost 1000 minutes of standard definition video on it of piano recitals from the golden age... Gould, Brendel, Michelangeli, Arrau, etc. Watching it has totally changed my outlook on these performers. For instance, I always found Brendel's Beethoven Piano Sonatas kind of bland. But I watched the video of him playing Hammerklavier at a live performance, and he leaps off his seat and attacks the piano! Seeing how a pianist prepared for a difficult passage, emotes or dives in with intense concentration is as much a part of the experience as the sound.

This may be more true of soloists than orchestral music though. I have seen some videos of orchestral music that sounds great but really isn't much to look at.


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## LarryShone (Aug 29, 2014)

I like the sound of that blu ray Bigshot.


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## bigshot (Nov 22, 2011)

http://www.talkclassical.com/33962-amazing-blu-ray-folks.html (It's actually region free)


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## LarryShone (Aug 29, 2014)

There is no region B. There's regions 1,2 and 3 (my partner worked at Blockbuster for 13 years)


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## Guest (Sep 10, 2014)

bigshot said:


> I love Opera and Ballet, but they are theater music, not concert music. You can't multitask or background opera. It's more like a movie than a record. You have to watch it and follow the story and characters. If you listen to it as pure music, it seems monochromatic. If you watch it as theater, it comes alive and does things with music that concert music can't.


Thats why I Always listen to operas or lieder with the libretto in my hands,it helps me a lot and the rewarding is great.


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## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

LarryShone said:


> There is no region B. There's regions 1,2 and 3 (my partner worked at Blockbuster for 13 years)


Blu-ray is divided into regions by letter, whereas DVDs are by number. The distribution is different as well.


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## LarryShone (Aug 29, 2014)

Must be different in the states


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

> I love Opera and Ballet, but they are theater music, not concert music. You can't multitask or background opera. It's more like a movie than a record. You have to watch it and follow the story and characters. If you listen to it as pure music, it seems monochromatic. If you watch it as theater, it comes alive and does things with music that concert music can't.


I get a DVD and watch with the English subtitles, then I get a CD. After watching the DVD several times I can pretty much know where I am in the opera when listening to the CD.


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## GiulioCesare (Apr 9, 2013)

LarryShone said:


> I do like some modern. Takemitsu, Taverner and Part for example. But a lot of 'modern classical' is inaccessible to me.


I'm in the minority here, but I do not consider those composers to be modern. Postmodern, if you like, but not of the same period as Bartók, Schönberg or Stravinsky.


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## LarryShone (Aug 29, 2014)

Theyre modern in as much as they're not classical or romantic. I don't go for those labels like post modern. That just means the future.


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

LarryShone said:


> Theyre modern in as much as they're not classical or romantic. I don't go for those labels like post modern. That just means the future.


matter of fact, and since these are in place you should know them -- too many people seem to be at least a little prone to 'do the Humpty-Dumpty' and have words mean 'whatever I mean it to mean.'

In music history, these are the two eras after the Romantic era:
Modern: 1890 - 1975.
Contemporary: 1975 - present.

As those names are, since they're already about as dull and unimaginative as could be, there is no need to add the even duller 'post-modern' to the mix 

Best regards.


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## Blake (Nov 6, 2013)

Oh, you know... Post-Modern - music that's already made for the future, so we don't have to worry about getting any new artists.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

My main problem with dying is what if the greatest composer who ever lived will be born 100 years from now, pushing Bach, Mozart and Beethoven way, way, way out of the way? And I get to miss all that.

Heck, I coulda also been born in 1600 and never knew anything about Bach, Mozart and Beethoven and all that was to follow.

So, not too bad!


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## LarryShone (Aug 29, 2014)

hpowders said:


> My main problem with dying is what if the greatest composer who ever lived will be born 100 years from now, pushing Bach, Mozart and Beethoven way, way, way out of the way? And I get to miss all that.


I seriously doubt thats ever going to happen. Music is only going to get worse. 100 years from now classical music will be history, an anomaly.


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

LarryShone said:


> I seriously doubt thats ever going to happen. Music is only going to get worse. 100 years from now classical music will be history, an anomaly.


Can you see into the future? I can't, and I have no idea what's going to be happening 100 years from now. Oh wait, I do know one thing - I won't be around to watch it.


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## violadude (May 2, 2011)

Bulldog said:


> Can you see into the future? I can't, and I have no idea what's going to be happening 100 years from now. Oh wait, I do know one thing - I won't be around to watch it.


Maybe not, but technology is progressing pretty quickly


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## GiulioCesare (Apr 9, 2013)

I hold the name "contemporary" to be much more problematic than "postmodern". Postmodern is just the period after the modern period. If we were to use "contemporary" to define the current era, we'd need another word for "music being composed at this moment in time" once a new period comes along.

Of course, defining musical periods clearly is difficult, it's all very subjective, and all those caveats that I feel the need to spit out.


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## LarryShone (Aug 29, 2014)

violadude said:


> Maybe not, but technology is progressing pretty quickly


And the way things are going on in the world I doubt we'll make it to another century! Shame, I'd really like to see the beginnings of Star Trek coming true!


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## Giordano (Aug 10, 2014)

I think the universe is quite a bit more complex than human "civilization." The human race will survive, and hopefully those who remain will carry the memories of the highest human achievements. Music will thrive and great music will make its way into future human civilizations. It would be refreshing to remove the label "classical" and do away with worship and contests. In my opinion, obviously...


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

Vesuvius said:


> Oh, you know... Post-Modern - music that's already made for the future, so we don't have to worry about getting any new artists.


"Music that is made for the future" is a virtual impossibility.


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## violadude (May 2, 2011)

LarryShone said:


> And the way things are going on in the world I doubt we'll make it to another century! Shame, I'd really like to see the beginnings of Star Trek coming true!


Well, we'll just see I guess.


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

GiulioCesare said:


> I hold the name "contemporary" to be much more problematic than "postmodern". Postmodern is just the period after the modern period. If we were to use "contemporary" to define the current era, we'd need another word for "music being composed at this moment in time" once a new period comes along.
> 
> Of course, defining musical periods clearly is difficult, it's all very subjective, and all those caveats that I feel the need to spit out.


If I did not say it directly, I think "Modern" and "Contemporary" as labels for two musical eras are about the lamest, and really really seriously bad choices insofar as the conventional meaning of each word.

At some future date, I can easily imagine historians and the rest of the academic musical community coming up with different names for each the Modern and Contemporary eras -- and it is to be hoped they will!

Post-Modern is literally 'after Modern,' -- as dull as 'contemporary' in the historic context, and that much less imaginative, and imo, precious and / or pretentious.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

PetrB said:


> "Music that is made for the future" is a virtual impossibility.


Probably true. Although Beethoven once said (of the Kreutzer Sonata, I think) "This is not music for you but for a future age." Still, he read his reviews religiously. Maybe he was just mouthing off.

Later on, the music of Liszt and Wagner was sometimes referred to as "music of the future," often derisively.


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## Blake (Nov 6, 2013)

PetrB said:


> "Music that is made for the future" is a virtual impossibility.


Did you not feel the satire (hopefully not sarcasm) dripping from my bones? I was referring to those who like to continuously label things to keep them in a handy satchel to refer to... for security reasons... You know.


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## SeptimalTritone (Jul 7, 2014)

hpowders said:


> My main problem with dying is what if the greatest composer who ever lived will be born 100 years from now, pushing Bach, Mozart and Beethoven way, way, way out of the way? And I get to miss all that.


This already happened with Messiaen, so no worries dude


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## Guest (Sep 13, 2014)

I'm sure if you give Wagner's The Ring a few careful listens you'll come around.

Das Rheingold: 2 hrs 31 mins 13 secs
Die Walkure: 3 hrs 48 mins 44 secs
Siegfried: 3 hrs 59 mins 45 secs
Gotterdammerung: 4 hrs 25 mins 31 secs

Total: 14 hrs 45 mins 13 secs

Admit it - you probably waste that much time in a week. Why not spend it listening to Wagner?


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## LarryShone (Aug 29, 2014)

BPS said:


> I'm sure if you give Wagner's The Ring a few careful listens you'll come around.
> 
> Das Rheingold: 2 hrs 31 mins 13 secs
> Die Walkure: 3 hrs 48 mins 44 secs
> ...


It would be a great form of torture! Forget the thumbscrews just make me listen to opera!


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

Unfortunately you ain't worth **** until you can stomach Wagner, insofar as these things are concerned. Everybody thinks so. I always thought people should be allowed to not like Wagner but most will not permit that (I didn't make the world as it is, I just live in it). Just an FYI. At least listen to a few ring cycles before you attempt to engage another person in discussion in Classical Music. When the discussion turns to Wagner, you don't want to be the social disgrace without any Ring cycles under his belt. Might as well tell them you drown kittens for fun. Just sayin'.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

Couchie said:


> Unfortunately you ain't worth **** until you can stomach Wagner, insofar as these things are concerned. Everybody thinks so. I always thought people should be allowed to not like Wagner but most will not permit that (I didn't make the world as it is, I just live in it). Just an FYI. At least listen to a few ring cycles before you attempt to engage another person in discussion in Classical Music. When the discussion turns to Wagner, you don't want to be the social disgrace without any Ring cycles under his belt. Might as well tell them you drown kittens for fun. Just sayin'.


Wagner was one of my first forays into classical back when I was a teen infused with rock music. I liked Wagner overtures because they are hard driving like rock music. But now I pretty much never listen to Wagner.


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## Blake (Nov 6, 2013)

I haven't given Wagner much time in my day. Haven't heard one Ring cycle. I feel no lack of such. Too many other artists impressing the hell out of me at this moment. Maybe some day.


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## bigshot (Nov 22, 2011)

There are dozens and dozens of different roads to go down with classical music. You just pick one and start off. It's no fun to go down all the roads at once. Better to save some for five or ten years down the line.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

BPS said:


> I'm sure if you give Wagner's The Ring a few careful listens you'll come around.
> 
> Das Rheingold: 2 hrs 31 mins 13 secs
> Die Walkure: 3 hrs 48 mins 44 secs
> ...


It's music's equivalent of climbing the Eiger, and that's why I realise I had Wagner thrown in my face in my early years on the forum.

These days the Wagner fad here has diminished, now you're more likely to have Fernyhough used for that purpose. In any case, its usually part of some agenda, and the thing 'thrown' always changes. I have no interest in the current hot topics on TC, whether its Wagner, contemporary classical music, or whether listening to composer X is better than listening to composer Y. Its not about a problem so much as about competing ideas and opinions.

If a person feels they have a problem, they can rectify it themselves with no pressure. If there is a need to change and go in certain directions, it will ultimately have to come from within the individual. Sharing ideas in a more open way is part of this.


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