# John Cage Anniversary



## bigshot (Nov 22, 2011)

This has been posted to several groups recently, but I haven't seen it here yet...

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/daniel-asia/the-put-on-of-the-century_b_2403915.html


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## BurningDesire (Jul 15, 2012)

What an idiot.


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## arpeggio (Oct 4, 2012)

*So what*



bigshot said:


> This has been posted to several groups recently, but I haven't seen it here yet...
> 
> http://www.huffingtonpost.com/daniel-asia/the-put-on-of-the-century_b_2403915.html


I have seen it. One of the most effective critics of the article was a gentleman who admitted that he disliked Cage.

As a member of the "If you like it, listen too it; if you dislike it, don't" school of music appreciation the article made no sense to me.

Asia's music is still OK. You should give it a try. If you like it, listen to it.

I think I recall that Tchaikovsky hated Brahms?


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## BurningDesire (Jul 15, 2012)

I might add that I call the writer of that article an idiot not because I disagree with the opinions of his article (though I do). I call him an idiot because of things he claims which are just plain wrong, inexcusably so for an academic, and especially for the absurd claim that John Cage will fall into deep obscurity in a few years time. Any absolute claim about the future, as if it is guaranteed to happen, is absurd and stupid.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

BurningDesire said:


> What an idiot.


_I am relieved that you were referring to Daniel Asia. 
A lazy and unimaginative idiot at that; Cage is such an easy target._


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

Another Cage hater - how original.


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## joen_cph (Jan 17, 2010)

The writer seems to base his views on hearing the _Sonatas and Interludes_ only. I don´t agree with his characterization of them as dull and without dynamics - the Etcetera recording for instance proves otherwise and manages to render all their colours IMO.

But: which 5 other works - for instance - deserve to become classics/core repertoire in the concert halls of the future, being it chamber music, piano solo recitals, orchestral or vocal ? It would be interesting to hear what people think about that.


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

Prepared piano concerto
His other prepared piano works
The seasons
Dream
In a landscape


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## joen_cph (Jan 17, 2010)

As far as I remember these are piano works, maybe one of them orchestrated (not the concerto of course) ?


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

In a Landscape for piano or harp.
The seasons for piano and orchestra.
Dream, for piano or viola and ensemble of 4 violas.


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## joen_cph (Jan 17, 2010)

Aha. 

(that´s about the most intelligent I can say right now - but I own some of them ;-). 
Needless to say I´m not his biggest fan.).


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## bigshot (Nov 22, 2011)

I liked the comparison to wind chimes.


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## BurningDesire (Jul 15, 2012)

Sonatas and Interludes I think could be considered one of Cage's best works. It is beautiful, and versatile. I have listened to it in its entirety multiple times, as well as its individual parts, and both ways it works considerably well. They span diverse (and complex) emotional states, but Cage unifies them effectively. The use of silence is beautiful and quite effective. The melodies in it... range from cute and innocent to just heartbreakingly beautiful. Sonata I and XVI have had me in tears. The rhythms are fun and engaging. If I had any complaint about the piece, it would be that I'm not a fan of Cage's calligraphic handwriting in the score. I haven't attempted to learn the piece, but I have studied its score, and his handwriting makes it difficult to read, I wish they had printed a more legible score for the published versions (or did he want it to be a tad confusing, maybe an early chance element? )

I generally prefer Cage's works prior to indeterminacy, because I really like hearing the artist in their music in general, and I think Cage's personal expressions were beautiful. Some of his chance works I find to be beautiful (Music of Changes), and many have alot of charm in a way, and do express Cage's sense of humor and his imagination in the many different ways he utilized chance (I particularly like pieces like Inlets, Child of Tree, and Water Walk, in that regard, or his various radio pieces), but in his late period, my favorite piece would probably be something like Souvenir, for pipe organ, which is a return to his earlier, more personal approach, or in pieces like Cheap Imitation, another later work which is personal in many ways. I love his ideas too, that all sound is perfectly valid as music, that we can use any sounds in any manner in this wonderful artform. I have my disagreements with some things, but that is beside the point. Cage was a great musical philosopher, but to claim that is his only worthwhile contribution is absurd. He developed new techniques for composing, and he wrote many pieces I find considerably beautiful, he challenged ideas about art in ways that make you really think about art and where you stand on the subject.

He, along with other 20th Century composers opened up the doors for many different ways of thinking about and approaching the subject of music. And he wrote beautiful music.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

Art Rock said:


> Another Cage hater - how original.


Yep, and I'd add that since the writer obviously knows that its uber cliche (passe?) territory to talk about 4'33" & all the blah blah blah about that, he aims his gun at the Sonatas and Interludes.

If he had aimed his gun at 4'33" I might have agreed with some of it, but I don't think the same thing about Cage's actual music. I went to a all Cage concert last year commemorating his anniversary and I enjoyed his music (they did not play the silent sonata).

But the writer of this article kind of ends up concluding with the same dichotomy - if you don't like one thing, go for another: "So, if you want the real thing, forgo Cage for Stravinsky." People are free to do that but I'm happy to listen to either these composers, given what my needs as a listener are at the time.

& other composers where experimenting with chance and other things like that earlier than Cage. Percy Grainger was in the early 20th century. Maybe he's lucky to not get the 'credit' for innovating in this area. Cage got all the mudballs thrown at him, yes Cage is an easy target, let's blame him ONLY. Nobody else would think or do such things, of course. Chance, indeterminacy or some sort of freedom concerning these things never existed in music before or after Cage (yeah, right, pull the other leg).

In any case, CAge influenced quite a few composers - Lutoslawski, Penderecki, Sculthorpe, Hovhaness to name a few. They refined and synthesised some of his ideas into their music - should they be a target for this writer as well?


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## Rapide (Oct 11, 2011)

Cage will be only remotely remembered. He wrote some fine pieces but too often and unfortunately overshadowed by his experimental and conceptual pieces, which for his legacy, I do not think does him much justice. And it won't be too difficult for other contemporary composers to crush Cage's small legacy, for example Boulez.


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

One way to get yourself a little publicity where none would otherwise naturally occur is to attach yourself to the coattails of those who are truly and justly famous.... notable anniversaries are a good opportunity to which to attach yourself if that is your goal.

This is this author's moment in the sun, dragging in the dust on the coattails of Stravinsky and Cage. I imagine he thinks he is actually in the sunshine for a second or two, via yet another blog on the _oh-this-so-legitimizes-me-because-I-exist-in-virtual-font-on-a-screen_ medium.

...an unnamed mote of dust, illuminated in a shaft of light from the stars, for a relative nano-second.

Yay.

The real legacy of Cage is by through working with sound he turned, directly or indirectly, everyone's empirical ears back towards their minds, forcing thought about 'what we hear, and why we hear it as _____.' He is parallel to Schoenberg that way, though I think Schoenberg left us more "listenable" pieces on a more traditional 'music to listen to' plane.

The strength of effect Cage had on musical thinking very much changed the musical landscape, and 'how to think about music' for more than a little trendy and and fashionable moment.... hat's off to Mr. Cage, then.

... and who was that little bit of squeaking noise professor of music from that school in the American southwest? uh....


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

> Cage, by necessity, gives up on what is commonly called pitch relations. In his world, all sounds are equal, thus depriving the listener of any hierarchical relationship, and the sense of consonance and dissonance that is created within that environment. The pitch world created is placid and flaccid.


The author must be a fascist.


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> The author must be a fascist.


I wouldn't give him that much weight, COAG!

I can almost guarantee this mini-mite of a fellow was having himself one really smug chortle when he penned...
"The pitch world created is _placid and flaccid_." \
That moment might've been the best part of his last 12 months, a peak performance moment wherein he was just delighted with himself over that ever so zippy phrase.

It was Stravinsky who said, "The best comment on a piece of music is another piece of music."

Somehow, "The best comment on a piece of music is on an author published blog" just don't got the same ring to it, ya know?


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## arpeggio (Oct 4, 2012)

*Kinder Cage Article*

To counter balance the Asia editorial I found the following article: https://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/Page?pageName=pages/listen/winter2012_cage.jsp


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## Guest (Jan 17, 2013)

Delightful!

Thanks so much for this, arpeggio!!:tiphat:


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## Huilunsoittaja (Apr 6, 2010)

arpeggio said:


> To counter balance the Asia editorial I found the following article: https://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/Page?pageName=pages/listen/winter2012_cage.jsp


Yes, thank you for sharing this. It was an honest description of his beliefs, and reading stuff like this really enlightens me. Instead of making passing judgments, I can take his own ideas and words and now be able to explain why I must be at odds with him. That's how I want to conduct philosophical discussion. Not that I'm planning to on this thread, I'm just staying what it means to me.


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## arpeggio (Oct 4, 2012)

*Is Cage As Much Theater As It Is Music?*

A friend of mine, who is a aficionado of Cage, made an interesting observation to me. If _4' 33"_ was a play by Samuel Becket where an actor walks on a stage a stares at a piano, would we be having this discussion? The quandary with Cage is that some of his works are just as much theater as they are music.

A significant body of his works are associated with the choreography of his long time partner Merce Cunningham. At the Philadelphia Museum of Art they had an exhibit entitled "Dancing around the Bride: Cage, Cunningham, Johns, Rauschenberg, and Duchamp". When my wife and I visited the exhibit there was a dance recital featuring the works of Cunningham. The music of Cage seem to fit the his choreography. Now a derogatory individual may make the argument that this proves that Cage's music is unable to stand on its own. That may be true, but I can not image that choreography working with _Swan Lake_.

This reminds me of a point I heard at a panal discussion on modern music. In _2001_, when Bowman goes through the star gate, do we want to hear Ligeti or the Beach Boys singing "Let's go surfing through the star gate."

No matter what one may think, Cage's music did fulfill a certain role in its time. With Cage, Cunningham found a composer to creat the right music to accompany his dancers.


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## rrudolph (Sep 15, 2011)

bigshot said:


> This has been posted to several groups recently, but I haven't seen it here yet...
> 
> http://www.huffingtonpost.com/daniel-asia/the-put-on-of-the-century_b_2403915.html


A surprising and disappointing diatribe from someone who should know better.


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