# How some people can dislike Stravinsky's neoclassical period?



## aleazk (Sep 30, 2011)

Such masterpieces as these ones:

-Dumbarton Oaks:











-Symphonies of Wind Instruments






and others...


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## tdc (Jan 17, 2011)

Its my favorite Stravinsky period. (I personally don't think its coincidental you and I are huge fans of Ravel, and we love Stravinsky's neo-classical period.) There are a lot of similarities between Stravinsky's music of this time and the music of Ravel - modern colors, masterfully orchestrated and very 'clean' well-crafted sounding music. This style seems to be very 'deep' to me and goes beyond just expressing individual emotions, catharsis etc.

For fans of Stravinsky's neo-classical phase I'd highly recommend this recording:


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

The Symphonies Of Wind Instruments is a long time favorite. I'm not as familiar with Dumbarton Oaks. I have the Sony box, so I'll be investigating further.


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## violadude (May 2, 2011)

Of course it's because he stopped composing hardcore awesome stuff like the Rite of Spring to compose dinky classical/Baroque inspired, not as hardcore pieces!


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## aleazk (Sep 30, 2011)

violadude said:


> Of course it's because he stopped composing hardcore awesome stuff like the Rite of Spring to compose dinky classical/Baroque inspired, not as hardcore pieces!


maybe, but i find the two periods quite impressive. And complementary of each other for the life of a composer.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

violadude said:


> Of course it's because he stopped composing hardcore awesome stuff like the Rite of Spring to compose dinky classical/Baroque inspired, not as hardcore pieces!


Heh, heh! But Stravinsky was so clever and talented, it's hard not to like many of these neo-classical pieces. Still, those early ballets are very famous for good reason. There not dinky neo works!


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## aleazk (Sep 30, 2011)

starthrower said:


> Heh, heh! But Stravinsky was so clever and talented, it's hard not to like many of these neo-classical pieces. Still, those early ballets are very famous for good reason. There not dinky neo works!


i think people don't like his neoclassical works because of pure snobism, they think they are "cool" and modern because they don't like this more "no so hardcore" period. the hell with them... i like both periods.


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## violadude (May 2, 2011)

aleazk said:


> i think people don't like his neoclassiclasical works because of pure snobism, they think they are "cool" and modern because they don't like this more "no so hardcore" period.


I would think the exact opposite...that the hip modern people would be more inclined to enjoy his neoclassical period because it is in ways, more intellectually stimulating, less big and emotional (the Rite was sort of like a modern version of Rimsky-Korsokov after all) and less cliched and mainstream, more "underground" so to speak


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## aleazk (Sep 30, 2011)

violadude said:


> I would think the exact opposite...that the hip modern people would be more inclined to enjoy his neoclassical period because it is in ways, more intellectually stimulating, less big and emotional (the Rite was sort of like a modern version of Rimsky-Korsokov after all) and less cliched and mainstream, more "underground" so to speak


well, but the fact is that people don't like his neo period. and the reason of this, i think, its what i said.


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## violadude (May 2, 2011)

aleazk said:


> well, but the fact is that people don't like his neo period. and the reason of this, i think, its what i said.


I think maybe if he would have started out with the Neo-classical period it would have been fine. But the truth is, I think many people who hear get that "Rite of Spring adrenaline rush" get their hopes up for more Stravinsky and are disappointed when they hear most of his other music.

Just my personal opinion anyway. I really love his Neo period though. I consider his Violin concerto in my top 10 favorite.


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## aleazk (Sep 30, 2011)

tdc said:


> Its my favorite Stravinsky period. (I personally don't think its coincidental you and I are huge fans of Ravel, and we love Stravinsky's neo-classical period.) There are a lot of similarities between Stravinsky's music of this time and the music of Ravel - modern colors, masterfully orchestrated and very 'clean' well-crafted sounding music. This style seems to be very 'deep' to me and goes beyond just expressing individual emotions, catharsis etc.
> 
> For fans of Stravinsky's neo-classical phase I'd highly recommend this recording:


hey:










haha. regards. cheers for maurice and igor.


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## Chrythes (Oct 13, 2011)

I haven't listened much to Stravinsky, but the Dumbarton Oaks concerto was a favourite from the beginning.
I had Ravel and Debussy in mind as well when i first heard it, as it seemed to represent some kind of impressionism - as if the thin and small brush strokes were incorporated into music. 
His octet is also quite lovely.

Oh and his Violin Concerto in D is also lovely!


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## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

I should probably keep my mouth shut, but the neo phase doesn't particularly grab me. Nothing personal; I've studied what he's doing and can appreciate his art, but it just hasn't swept me into its arms as of this point. I do hope to develop an affinity for it eventually.


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## brianwalker (Dec 9, 2011)

Manxfeeder said:


> I should probably keep my mouth shut, but the neo phase doesn't particularly grab me. Nothing personal; I've studied what he's doing and can appreciate his art, but it just hasn't swept me into its arms as of this point. I do hope to develop an affinity for it eventually.












:tiphat:


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## Olias (Nov 18, 2010)

Stravinsky's Neoclassical period was a result of the way public attitudes towards life changed after the first world war. Nationalism and Expressionism were considered to be contributing factors to the mental attitudes that led to the war. As a result, Stravinsky, like many other composers, turned to a less overtly emotional style. However, Stravinsky's musical trademarks of layered ostinatos and rhythmic asymmetry are still present in his postwar music. Its the same Stravinsky speaking with a different musical accent.


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## aleazk (Sep 30, 2011)

Olias said:


> Stravinsky's Neoclassical period was a result of the way public attitudes towards life changed after the first world war. Nationalism and Expressionism were considered to be contributing factors to the mental attitudes that led to the war. As a result, Stravinsky, like many other composers, turned to a less overtly emotional style. _However, Stravinsky's musical trademarks of layered ostinatos and rhythmic asymmetry are still present in his postwar music. Its the same Stravinsky speaking with a different musical accent_.


yes, indeed. listen carefully the bass section of this, it has some resemblance to the rite of spring:






(from 8:00)


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## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

brianwalker said:


> :tiphat:


Those are delightful pieces. I especially like what Robert Craft does with the second one. Sometimes all it takes is the right performance to change my impression.


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

I have tried plenty of Stravinsky beyond the three early ballets (including the two examples in the first post), and they do not impress me that much. Neoclassicism in general does not do it for me. Nothing to do with snobbishness, just a matter of taste. My taste.


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## bassClef (Oct 29, 2006)

From around 5:10 to 5:45 is my favourite Stravinsky passage of all, Rite of Spring included.


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## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

Stravinsky's Neoclassical period was a result of the way public attitudes towards life changed after the first world war. Nationalism and Expressionism were considered to be contributing factors to the mental attitudes that led to the war. As a result, Stravinsky, like many other composers, turned to a less overtly emotional style.

/\ Interesting theory. No universal application (e.g. Rachmaninoff), but still attractive. Personally, I think the Rite was as far as he could send that wave up the beach, and he wished to avoid repeating himself. That he also wished to make a living is probably relevant.


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## NightHawk (Nov 3, 2011)

The Symphonies of Wind Instruments is a cold drink of pure mountain water - recently heard an ok performance of it and afterwards I was trying to figure out why I thought it was 'so so', and I finally decided it was because the silences that slice through the piece in many places were not not 'clean silences'. On the one hand some players in the wind group were confused about exact note lengths so the beginning of the silences were ragged - on the other hand, some players were rhythmically insecure and would anticipate the entrance 'after' the silence. The piece has to be pristine in every way.



starthrower said:


> The Symphonies Of Wind Instruments is a long time favorite. I'm not as familiar with Dumbarton Oaks. I have the Sony box, so I'll be investigating further.


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## NightHawk (Nov 3, 2011)

And for the record, Stravinsky's neo-classic works/period is my very favorite Stravinsky hands down.


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## violadude (May 2, 2011)

Has anyone heard Stravinsky's Ballet Orpheus? I am not sure how much I like the work as a whole, but I find the opening extremely beautiful.


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## violadude (May 2, 2011)

aleazk said:


> hey:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I so want to put a caption on this....

"Happy Holidays! 
Cheers,
Maurice and Igor


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## bassClef (Oct 29, 2006)

Jeu de Cartes is also rather wonderful. First Deal:





Then of course there's the sublime The Fairy's Kiss, based on Tchaikovsky themes:


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## kv466 (May 18, 2011)

_How some people can dislike Stravinsky's neoclassical period?_

Same way some claim to dislike Beethoven's Ninth Symphony or to not having even heard it before...as absurd as I find the latter, I reckon it's simply a matter of taste.


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## aleazk (Sep 30, 2011)

violadude said:


> I so want to put a caption on this....
> 
> "Happy Holidays!
> Cheers,
> Maurice and Igor


are you trying to suggest what i think you are trying to suggest?:devil:
you are evil, vd.


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## Richannes Wrahms (Jan 6, 2014)

I recall reading that Ravel was weirded out by Stravo's neoclassicism although he loved Les Noces which, incidentally, I fail to appreciate on many levels.


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## Ethereality (Apr 6, 2019)

aleazk said:


> i think people don't like his neoclassical works because of pure snobism, they think they are "cool" and modern because they don't like this more "no so hardcore" period. the hell with them... i like both periods.





violadude said:


> I would think the exact opposite... I think many people who hear get that "Rite of Spring adrenaline rush" get their hopes up for more Stravinsky and are disappointed when they hear most of his other music.


I agree with the 2nd one. Stravinsky's Rite of Spring is rated as #4 when the forum was asked for all their favorite pieces, so there's not much anti-Stravinsky snobbery here.


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## ORigel (May 7, 2020)

Also try his Septet, written at the cusp of his serial period. The first movement is neoclassical and recalls Dumbarton Oaks. The second and third movement use serial techniques.


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## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

I've read that some critics thought that Stravinsky stayed with neoclassicism for too long and that it had all become a little tired. As the culmination of his neoclassical period included the excellent _The Rake's Progress_ I for one am glad he did.


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## Coach G (Apr 22, 2020)

"How some people can dislike Stravinsky's neoclassical period?"

I did; only because I was so taken with _Rite of Spring_ that immediately after hearing it, I couldn't wait to get to the record store (yes,it was a long time ago), and get more Stravinsky; so when I came home with Stravinsky's _Violin Concerto_, I was completely mystified and disappointed. Where were the pulsating rhythms; the jagged edges; the wild percussion; the savage, mysterious, and colorful shadings? What I didn't know was that all the Stravinsky colors were still there, but also the same wonderful sense of craftsmanship that characterizes _Rite of Spring_.The same goes for Stravinsky's late, late work when he jumped on Arnold Schoenberg's serial bandwagon...

...and if you REALLY want something to remind you of _Rite of Spring_, there's always _Sensemaya_ by Silvestre Revueltas.


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## Torkelburger (Jan 14, 2014)

But I think that is the genius of Stravinsky. If he wrote Le Sacre over and over again, he may have been forgotten as a one hit wonder. All of his pieces are different. Every ballet he wrote was completely unique. Every symphony. His late period works are completely different from each other.

There are some neo-classical pieces he wrote that had pulsating rhythms, jagged edges, and savage, colorful shadings, etc. Like these:











Starting at 1:00 here






This piece is kind of a unique blend of several elements from previous ballets, creating something completely new. Has a couple wild moments, nothing as intense as Le Sacre, but wild nonetheless.


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## Ariasexta (Jul 3, 2010)

I had been refusing to even try Stvsky, but since a title is given, I tried on a video site.

Summary: the Dumb-oaks is reminiscent of Mozartian tonal texture of the symphonies, guess it is why his music is called neoclassicism. The opening is a bit engaging but the piece does not always stay in high level of quality throughout, a few passages in the midway repulse me a bit for being melodramatic like bad movie scores but later it would drag me up and sit me tight untill the end through this 16 minutes. I am not accustomed to this kind of roller-coaster up and down experience in music, I simply do not like it. But overall, better than anticipated.


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## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

I disliked his Symphony in C until today, when I this thread reminded I should revisit. I always liked his other works from this period.


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

Stravinsky is a fascinating composer,and a true genius....he composed successfully in so many different styles....his works are a treasure trove of invention and creativity....from "Le Sacre", to the Octet for winds, to Symphony in C, to Agon, there is an endless cornucopia of great, enjoyable music....he reminds me of Picasso in the graphic arts - so skilled at so many different styles and modes of expression....these artists constantly challenge the listener/viewer to hear and see with new senses every time they are exposed to a new work.


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## SeptimalTritone (Jul 7, 2014)

Richannes Wrahms said:


> I recall reading that Ravel was weirded out by Stravo's neoclassicism although he loved Les Noces which, incidentally, I fail to appreciate on many levels.


I used to think that Les Noces was just "meh" until I heard it with the Pokrovsky ensemble here 




In this performance, not only does the singing style capture that Russian folksy element, but more importantly the tempo ratios are correct. For example, the initial music in the first two minutes contrasts the solo bride's singing with the bridesmaid's chorus. Both are marked at 80bpm, but a lot of other performances take the bridesmaid's chorus relatively way too slowly. If you do it at the right tempo, it's awesome, particularly the rhythmic "tripping" as some of the measures of the bridesmaid's music are in 5/8 rather than 6/8.

The tempo, and therefore, the character and expression, has to be right. I love e.g. the rustic muscular aggressiveness at 4:55 in that performance, it almost has sexual undertones.

In general, classical music is played (a.) too slowly and (b.) not evenly and equally too slowly in different parts of a piece. The closer you perform to the tempo markings, the better. In Stravinsky's Les Noces, it matters, as it does in Beethoven's symphonies.


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## EmperorOfIceCream (Jan 3, 2020)

Some of it I find comically bad, like Les Noces. I know Boulez thinks it's an amazing achievement, but I just start laughing when I hear it. There are a lot of odd quirks in his neoclassical period besides the neoclassicism: he is obsessed with wind instruments and certain chords are overused. But I quite like the Violin Concerto, Orpheus, and the Mass. But his stuff from the early 50s I find to be the most moving—the Cantata and Agon are both beautiful. I used to hate the Cantata, but it has really grown on me and I find it beautiful in a simple, elegant way. Meanwhile, the octet leaves me cold.


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

EmperorOfIceCream said:


> ...... Meanwhile, the octet leaves me cold.


Interesting?? It's such a wonderful work, a little masterpiece....


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## JAS (Mar 6, 2013)

I have never really warmed to anything by him beyond Firebird (and The Fairy's Kiss).


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## Lisztian (Oct 10, 2011)

I enjoy every period but the neo-classical is probably my favourite. So much gorgeous and engrossing music.


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