# Contemporary Music (21st-Century) Weekly Listening Thread



## 20centrfuge (Apr 13, 2007)

We invite everyone to participate in this listening thread focusing on contemporary music of the last 20 years! Each week TC members have the opportunity to present a "concert" of approximately 50 minutes of music for the TC community to hear and discuss.

On your assigned week please list your works, provide links to recordings, and feel free to include any other words or information. As space allows, latecomers are welcome to sign-up to present a concert.

Keep in mind that this thread is meant to be fun. We encourage a convivial atmosphere and ask that people be kind and realize that everyone comes from their own unique place of experience, knowledge, and musical taste.

In short, let's have fun!

And remember:* ALL MUSIC WAS ONCE NEW!!!!!!*


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## 20centrfuge (Apr 13, 2007)

*ROUND 1 PROGRAM (subject to change)*

November 22: (20centrfuge)
Chin, Unsuk: Concerto for Cello (2006-8, rev.2013) [28]
Kurtág, György: Poems (4) of Anna Akhmatova, for voice & orchestra (1997-2008) [12]
Burhans, Caleb: Magnificat (2013?) [6]

November 29: (Ravn)
Ratkje, Maja: Tale of Lead and Light, String Quartet No. 1 (2011) [10]
Moe, Ole-Henrik: Vent Litt Lenger (2008) [39]

December 6: (Knorf)
Shaw, Caroline: Entr'acte, for string orchestra (2011) [12]
Carter, Elliott: Horn Concerto (2007) [11]
Adams, John: Guide to Strange Places (2001) [24]

December 13: (calvinpv)
Poppe, Enno: Trauben, for piano trio (2004-2005) [11:30]
Poppe, Enno: Rundfunk, for nine synthesizers, 1st movement (2015-2018) [19]
Poppe, Enno: Schnur, for violin & orchestra (2019) [19:30]

December 20: (gregorx)
Thorvaldsdottir, Anna: Metacosmos (2017) [15]
Benjamin, George: Dance Figures, nine choreographic scenes for orchestra (2004) [15]
Saariaho, Kaija: Leino Songs (2007) [14]

TBD XL GROUP SELECTION (feel free to nominate an extra-large work until December 5, shortly after that we'll have a vote to determine which work(s) to listen to)
December 27-January 9:
_Current nominations:_
Neuwirth, Olga: Lost Highway (opera) (calvinpv)
Rihm, Wolfgang: Requiem-Strophen (Knorf)
Saunders, Rebecca: Yes (20centrfuge)
Soper, Kate: "philosophy-opera" IPSA DIXIT (2010-16) (Trout)

January 10: (EmperorOfIceCream)
Instances - Elliott Carter (2012) [7]
Epigram - Franck Bedrossian (2010-2018) [35]
Correspondances - Henri Dutilleux (2003) [18]

January 17: (Simon Moon)
Thomas, Augusta Read: "Prisms of Light" (2014) (22:28)
Tüür, Erkki-Sven: Violin Concerto No. 2, "Angel's Share" (2017/2018)(24:00)

January 24 (Trout):
Fujikura, Dai: Bassoon Concerto (2012) [25]
Widmann, Jörg: Viola Concerto (2015) [28]

January 31: (Mandryka)
TBD

February 7: (Kjetil Heggelund)
Lindberg, Magnus: Mano a Mano (solo guitar) (2004) [15]
Francesconi, Luca: Duende (violin concerto) (2014) [31]

February 14: (available)

February 21: (available)

February 28: (available)

February 28 will be the projected end of Round One. We can start a new round after that if there is interest. We'll leave February 14, 21, 28 for latecomers. If there are no takers we can use those weeks for another of the XL works.


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## 20centrfuge (Apr 13, 2007)

*November 22*

*Chin, Unsuk: Concerto for Cello (2006-8, rev.2013) [28]
Kurtág, György: Poems (4) of Anna Akhmatova, for voice & orchestra (1997-2008) [12]
Burhans, Caleb: Magnificat (2013?) [6]*

I believe Chin's stunning Cello Concerto will become standard repertoire. I love the interplay and relationship between the cello and the orchestra and also love that this work is both modern and quite accessible.

Kurtag's little suite of miniatures based on the poetry of Akhmatova is onion-like in exploring layers of meaning in the poetry and how the music portrays that meaning. I have attached translations of the poetry below. Based on my limited research I will at least comment on the 2nd movement. Akhmatova visited the older distinguished poet Alexandr Blok and the result was a rebuke on her career as a poet based on her gender:

Blok stated "for a woman to be a poet is not simply absurd, but also obscene." Akhmatova therefore does NOT express in her poem an amorous or even adulating account of Blok, but instead asserts herself as an equal. The poem is more focused on the setting of Blok's apartment than on Blok the person. "Better not look at them at all" expresses that she will not validate his sexist viewpoint.

Lastly I include as a little dessert a short religious work by Caleb Burhans. It is entirely tonal with only some minor unconventional glissandi in the choir. Even so, I find it to be a lovely, melancholy work.

*CHIN: CELLO CONCERTO*

More detailed program notes available here: https://www.cincinnatisymphony.org/about/watch-listen/program-notes/1920-Notes/schubert-the-great/

Movement 1





Movement 2





Movement 3





Movement 4





*KURTAG: POEMS OF AKHMATOVA*

Pushkin





Blok





Wailing Lament





Varonezh





Pushkin
Who knows what such fame is like! 
At what price did he buy the right, 
The possibility or the paradise 
To joke about it all so wisely and cunningly, 
To be mysteriously silent, 
And to call a foot a "footsie"?

For Alexandr Blok
I came to him as a guest.
Precisely at noon. Sunday.
In the large room there was quiet,
And beyond the window, frost

And a sun like raspberry
Over the bluish-grey smoke-tangles.
How the reticent master
Concentrates as he looks!

His eyes are of the kind that
Nobody can forget. I'd
Better look out, better
Not look at them at all.

But I remember our talk,
Smoky noon of a Sunday,
In the poet's high grey house
By the sea-gates of the Neva.

The Wailing Lament
Today is the name day of Our Lady of Smolensk,
Dark blue incense drifts over the grass, 
And the flowing of the Requiem 
Is no longer sorrowful, but radiant. 
And the rosy little widows lead 
Their boys and girls to the cemetery 
To visit father's grave. 
But the graveyard - a grove of nightingales, 
Grows silent from the sun's bright blaze. 
We have brought to the Intercessor of Smolensk, 
We have brought to the Holy Mother of God, 
In our hands in a silver coffin
Our sun, extinguished in torment -
Alexander, pure swan.

Voronezh
And the town is frozen solid in a vice,
Trees, walls, snow, beneath a glass.
Over crystal, on slippery tracks of ice,
the painted sleighs and I, together, pass.
And over St Peter's there are poplars, crows
there's a pale green dome there that glows,
dim in the sun-shrouded dust.
The field of heroes lingers in my thought,
Kulikovo's barbarian battleground.
The frozen poplars, like glasses for a toast,
clash now, more noisily, overhead.
As though it was our wedding, and the crowd
were drinking to our health and happiness.
But Fear and the Muse take turns to guard
the room where the exiled poet is banished,
and the night, marching at full pace,
of the coming dawn, has no knowledge.

*BURHANS: MAGNIFICAT*


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## Kjetil Heggelund (Jan 4, 2016)

Yes, we love! I just got started, but I've heard Chin & Kurtag before. With Unsuk Chin, I don't know if I hear any Korean tradition and I don't know anything about that. It's fantastic contemporary music and easy to understand why she is doing so well...Oh...Kurtag has 100 times more listeners on spotify 
...I also liked the Burhans piece! Sweet <3 Never heard of him before. Thank-you for the concert!


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## Bill Schuster (Oct 22, 2019)

This looks like great fun and a wonderful way to explore modern composers. I will definitely be checking these out. Thanks for putting in the effort here.


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## EmperorOfIceCream (Jan 3, 2020)

Chin Cello Concerto: I have heard this many times before, and I still love it. It's very creative and compelling. There are certain aspects which remind me of Tout un monde lointain (the muted horns, sudden flute runs, background percussion, opening line in Movement IV), and like Tout un monde lointain I think the texture is occasionally too sparse, but it's still great overall. The only weak spot I think is the first half of the last movement, but other than that it flows really well and the sonorities are fascinating. I have to see the score to know what she did with the percussion, beacause it's really clever. I agree that this will enter the repertoire. It's a beautiful, well-made concerto that's very direct while still being innovative.

Kurtag songs: I think the music really takes off in the last movement, and I think it fits the poems well, but overall I was left a little bored by this cycle. The accompaniment did not really seem to be a distinct agent from the singer, and to me it sort of all melded into an atmospheric, vaguely Second Viennese School, kind of piece.

Burhans Magnificat: Have never heard this composer before, but this was a really nice piece. The organ writing was simple in spots but effective, but it's the choral writing that was very interesting and moody. Very enjoyable.

Thanks to 20Centrfuge for the concert.


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## calvinpv (Apr 20, 2015)

I read today this interview by cellist Alban Gerhardt, who gave the world premiere of the Chin concerto. This guy is, shall we say, an interesting fella.

https://www.ryansuleiman.com/post/in-conversation-with-alban-gerhardt-cellist-unsuk-chin-s-cello-concerto


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## Kilgore Trout (Feb 26, 2014)

calvinpv said:


> I read today this interview by cellist Alban Gerhardt, who gave the world premiere of the Chin concerto. This guy is, shall we say, an interesting fella.


"You know Mieczislav Weinberg? [...] He's like Shostakovich for the Jewish people."

:lol:

"Fun to play? Actually, in terms of fun to play, there's nothing. It's fun to finish it."

:lol:

I would like to know who is that "Klaus Schäffer" Gerhardt talks about. Thank you for that interview, Gerhardt seems like a fun guy, and he has good tastes.


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## Knorf (Jan 16, 2020)

Great thread! Thanks for making this. I'm quite looking forward to it!


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## EmperorOfIceCream (Jan 3, 2020)

Ferneyhough wrote his string trio, and probably many other works by algorithm... :lol:


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## 20centrfuge (Apr 13, 2007)

I’m looking forward to Ravn’s post this weekend. Rain, fell free to start it a day early if you’d like.


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## Lilijana (Dec 17, 2019)

Hello there! May I join in? I know some music by friends of mine I would love to include on the list.


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## 20centrfuge (Apr 13, 2007)

Sure Lilijana, I’ll put you down for the February 14th spot.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

I think that Natalia Zagorinskaja has a lovely voice. The cycle is strange, the songs get longer and the non vocal component seems to become richer as the music moves along. But what I really wanted to say is that on the same CD I discovered a very interesting Beckett setting - What is the Word op 30b - which caught my attention rather more than the songs.


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## gregorx (Jan 25, 2020)

I've had the Chin Concerto in my collection for a couple of years and think it's very good. The style of orchestration and instrument selection you would expect from Chin, and that's what makes it a very interesting concerto. Not a whole lot of virtuoso type playing in this one which suits me. One of the improvements in modern and contemporary music, another being time; this one comes in under 28 minutes.

Hard to say if it would become part of the performing repertoire. The instrumentation is so sparse and bizarre, that no big symphony would schedule it. It will probably be a favorite of smaller ensemble groups. It makes sense that Alban Gerhardt would record this. I would think Yo-Yo Ma would be interested in it.

I liked the Kurtág song cycle. Although I have no idea what to make of Blok, the others are very good. Strange, unrecognizable percussion instrument was kind of annoying in the last song, but it is the best piece; the music really comes through in the last part.

Not a big fan of choral works, liturgical or secular, so Burhans' _Magnificat_ didn't do much for me. I think this type of choral music is beautiful, but it doesn't hold my interest for long. For me, choirs are used to much greater effect in orchestrated works, as a part of the orchestra. The first time I heard Feldman's _Rothko Chapel_, I couldn't figure out what "that instrument" was.


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## 20centrfuge (Apr 13, 2007)

November 29: (Ravn)
Ratkje, Maja: Tale of Lead and Light, String Quartet No. 1 (2011) [10]
Moe, Ole-Henrik: Vent Litt Lenger (2008) [39]


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## calvinpv (Apr 20, 2015)

Sorry for being late.

I found this little essay describing in more detail the possible connection to pansori and aniri recitative in the 1st movement of the Chin concerto (the program note 20centrfuge linked to only hints at this).

http://www.musicologynow.org/2018/04/global-perspectivesthe-story-of-unsuk.html

I've heard it a number of times before, but this is probably the first time where I could say I genuinely liked the piece, the first two movements in particular. Although, the second half of the final movement did feel a bit redundant after having heard something similar in the closing moments of the previous movement.

But I have to ask though. In the interview I posted earlier plus in a couple of other reviews I read, the Chin concerto is regarded as the best since the Dutilleux and Lutoslawski because of its handling of the cello, which can otherwise get drowned out by the orchestra. But is this really the reason why? For example, I gave a proper listen to Rihm's Styx und Lethe several weeks ago. Just as great as the Chin, in my opinion, but that cello hangs out in the lowest possible register for the first half of the piece ... and to a stunning effect at that, given the theme of the piece suggested by the title; also, the other instruments often play in the same range as the cello whenever it plays. I'm sure I could find other examples in the contemporary repertoire if I knew it as well as I should. In other words, I think you can find great concertos that disregard proper etiquette when it comes to using the cello's range.

For those of you who know the cello inside and out, what makes the Chin so special? I have no problems with it being called one of the best contemporary cello concertos; I think it's a great piece, but the critics must have something else in mind that I can't put my finger on.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

20centrfuge said:


> November 29: (Ravn)
> Ratkje, Maja: Tale of Lead and Light, String Quartet No. 1 (2011) [10]
> Moe, Ole-Henrik: Vent Litt Lenger (2008) [39]


I'm not hearing anything interesting in the Ratkje, I'm afraid. Maybe someone can help. The Moe quartet is new to me, if I have any ideas about it I'll say later.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

I enjoyed Olé’s Langer very much, visceral music, I especially appreciated the impact of the second half. I’ll try to hear the other two pieces later in the week.


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## Ravn (Jan 6, 2020)

Sorry for being late, I should have chosen another week since I have two exams this week.

Maja Ratkje and Ole Henrik Moe are two composers that I believe few have heard of - even in Norway they're both quite obscure. From Wikipedia

_[Maja] Ratkje studied composition at the Norwegian Academy of Music in Oslo under the tutorship of Lasse Thoresen, Olav Anton Thommessen and Asbjørn Schaathun, and got her diploma in 2000. During the summer of 1999, Ratkje studied at IRCAM and she has also studied individually with composers such as Louis Andriessen, Sofia Gubaidulina, Ivar Frounberg, Klaus Huber, Joji Yuasa and Kaija Saariaho._

Ole Henrik Moe doesn't have a Wikipedia article in English, but he is also a graduate from the Norwegian Academy of Music, where he studied with Kaare Sæther (whom I don't know anything about). He received the Arne Nordheim prize in 2006. I believe he is most known for his collaborations with Norwegian rock band Motorpsycho.

As I'm no musicologist, I won't try to put forth an analysis of the pieces I've chosen. I like both of them very much, especially Moe's "Vent litt lenger" (in English "Wait a little longer") which is the find of the year for me and for the time being my absolute favorite string quartet (even though the last movement is played as a quintet). In particular I like the power and the intensity of the last movement.

These two works are the only works of these composers I have on CD, and Idagio is not of much help with finding other pieces of them.

I hope you all enjoy them, and I look forward to reading your comments!

Moe - Vent litt lenger
















Ratkje - String quartet no. 1


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## 20centrfuge (Apr 13, 2007)

I've enjoyed both works. Ratkje seems like the 21st century's equivalent of Martinu. She's one I will start keeping track of.

The Moe piece is atmospheric and haunting. I've listened to it once and am in the process of listening a second time.

Thanks for the concert, Ravn.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Ratkje seems to me a much more interesting in improvisations than in composed music.


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## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

calvinpv said:


> But I have to ask though. In the interview I posted earlier plus in a couple of other reviews I read, the Chin concerto is regarded as the best since the Dutilleux and Lutoslawski because of its handling of the cello, which can otherwise get drowned out by the orchestra. But is this really the reason why? For example, I gave a proper listen to Rihm's Styx und Lethe several weeks ago. Just as great as the Chin, in my opinion, but that cello hangs out in the lowest possible register for the first half of the piece ... and to a stunning effect at that, given the theme of the piece suggested by the title; also, the other instruments often play in the same range as the cello whenever it plays. I'm sure I could find other examples in the contemporary repertoire if I knew it as well as I should. In other words, I think you can find great concertos that disregard proper etiquette when it comes to using the cello's range.
> 
> For those of you who know the cello inside and out, *what makes the Chin so special?* I have no problems with it being called one of the best contemporary cello concertos; I think it's a great piece, but the critics must have something else in mind that I can't put my finger on.


I suspect the answer would be subjective. It's pretty evocative. Strangely, the most striking moment that stood out to me early in the piece at 1:20-1:23, which was obviously an exclamation mark to what came earlier, had this use of the tritone in the cello melody, which ties into a double stop on the second note. I looked at the score and it was different! Also would have been less striking. It was a 7th instead, and a double stop on the second note all the way. Gerghardt seemed to improvise and deviate from the score. I didn't check other parts. So it was also that particular cellist, the only one who is associated with the work, that deserved a lot of credit to me.


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## Kilgore Trout (Feb 26, 2014)

Phil loves classical said:


> Strangely, the most striking moment that stood out to me early in the piece at 1:20-1:23, which was obviously an exclamation mark to what came earlier, had this use of the tritone in the cello melody, which ties into a double stop on the second note. I looked at the score and it was different! Also would have been less striking. It was a 7th instead, and a double stop on the second note all the way. Gerghardt seemed to improvise and deviate from the score. I didn't check other parts. So it was also that particular cellist, the only one who is associated with the work, that deserved a lot of credit to me.


Hum? Gerhardt plays exactly what is written in the score at the time stamp you indicate. If you want to pedantic, he attacks the double stop a second time when it should be tied all the way, but he does attack the F-Bb double stop just after the B. Or I don't get what you mean.


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## calvinpv (Apr 20, 2015)

I found this program note for the Ratkje:


"The backdrop for this commission was to complement music by the great Ludwig van Beethoven. Beethoven’s scores for string quartet are cornucopias of techniques and musicality. They were certainly not meant for pure entertainment. Ending up with Beethoven’s quartet Op. 59 No. 1 as a reference for this piece, I even used elements from this quartet in my own composition.

Beethoven’s position as a free artist has been of great importance to all following composers. This is of equal inspiration as his music. As a free artist, one has to reflect upon our own time, and not be afraid of allowing reality affect our work. When I was in the middle of writing this piece something horrible happened in my neighbourhood. A bomb exploded in Oslo and a killer shot teenagers on an island summer camp. My nation’s reputation as a peaceful country to live in was drastically and forever changed. It was hard to compose. Papers and online media were soon filled with horrible pictures from the events. The lead-coloured skies being a recurring sight.

The ambiguity in the title reflects both hope and dread. Beethoven’s light shines through, strong and full of life!"


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## calvinpv (Apr 20, 2015)

Kilgore Trout said:


> Hum? Gerhardt plays exactly what is written in the score at the time stamp you indicate. If you want to pedantic, he attacks the double stop a second time when it should be tied all the way, but he does attack the F-Bb double stop just after the B. Or I don't get what you mean.


I don't have the score so I don't know what's correct/incorrect (is there a place to read it online?), but this is what I hear as well, although that second double stop sounds like it went down a quarter-tone closer to F-A. Maybe Gerhardt missed the Bb or maybe he was setting up the tremolo with a step down first?

And iirc, the interview I posted last week had Gerhardt saying he prefers to leave the scores of a living composer alone; he has a rather deferential attitude to what the composer says and writes.


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## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

Kilgore Trout said:


> Hum? Gerhardt plays exactly what is written in the score at the time stamp you indicate. If you want to pedantic, he attacks the double stop a second time when it should be tied all the way, but he does attack the F-Bb double stop just after the B. Or I don't get what you mean.


Whoops hold on. I was counting up from the wrong line on the score, which was too faint. There were only a couple of notes changed. not the tritone.

Actual score:









As played:


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## Kilgore Trout (Feb 26, 2014)

I'm not sure where you got your score, but on the one available on the Boosey and Hawkes website, the first and fourth notes aren't Gb and a G like they appear to be (it's actually the bottom line that is missing), but Bb and a B.









Not that it really matters, but I thought it weird that Gerhardt would mess with the notes, especially so early in the piece.

For Calvinpv, the score is available here (you only need a free account): https://www.boosey.com/cr/perusals/score?id=1155


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## Knorf (Jan 16, 2020)

I've caught up with the first concert. Unsuk Chin's Cello Concerto is fantastic. I've known it for a few years, shortly after the DG disc was released, and enjoy it very much. I regard it as one of her best pieces, one where you finally get a strong sense of her mature style. Much of her earlier music is very good, but overtly Ligetian. That's not bad, just I appreciate her more recent stuff more because it has ventured much further. Anyway, gorgeous piece.

Kurtág is always great. Such fabulous imagination for color, such little crystalline explosions of expression and beauty. Terrific!

The Burhans was not to my taste. Such relentlessly banal and ugly music. I had to stop listening after only a couple minutes. Apologies.


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## Knorf (Jan 16, 2020)

Here's my program for Concert III. It's sort of three different takes on recent art music in America; of course three is not a sufficient number of points of view to cover the whole picture, but I wasn't trying to do that anyway. Enjoy!

*Caroline Shaw* is the youngest person ever to have won the Pulitzer Prize in Music, for her work for a cappella choir, _Partita for Eight Voices_. For this concert, I've selected her _*Entr'acte for String Orchestra*_. Originally for string quartet, the work owes its inspiration to the composer's having been moved and inspired by the minuet & trio movement from Joseph Haydn's String Quartet in F major, Op. 77 No. 2. I have yet still to discern a consistent musical personality in Shaw's work, but what I can say is that what she does is always striking, and never quite does what you expect.

*Caroline Shaw*: _Entr'acte for String Orchestra_ (2011)
Kaleidoscope Chamber Orchestra






Widely regarded as one of the greatest American composers ever, *Elliott Carter*'s storied career started in the 1940s and was going strong all the way until his death in 2012, just shy of his 104th birthday (Dec. 11, which is Friday this week.) What impressed me the most about Carter is that he never stopped challenging his creativity, never settled on one pattern for success, but always sought for new ideas and new ways to discover beauty. For me, his greatest music (which is saying A LOT) is mostly after 1990, when we was already in his 80s! Extraordinary. His *Horn Concerto* is an gloriously audacious example from his almost unbelievably fertile late, late period, and is perhaps my favorite Horn Concerto of all time.

*Elliott Carter*: Horn Concerto (2007)
Martin Owen
BBC Symphony Orchestra, Oliver Knussen






*John Adams* has had a huge, massively influential career in American music, and there's little to suggest any tendency towards its weakening. His solution has been similar to Carter's: never merely rest on previous success, but always seek the unknown, always be willing to challenge one's own creativity. This piece, _*Guide to Strange Places*_ feels to me like a microcosmic overview of his career up to its composition. It's gloriously unpredictable. Everytime you think Adams is going to give the audience the same old patterns (say, from the likes of _Shaker Loops_), he goes in totally different and unexpected direction. By the time the listener realize where they are, they can hardly understand how they got there. Strange places, indeed. But where else will one be more likely to be surprised by what one finds?

*John Adams*: _Guide to Strange Places_ (2001)
Netherlands Radio Philharmonic Orchestra, John Adams


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## gregorx (Jan 25, 2020)

I have to say that I really struggled with the piece by Ole-Henrik Moe. They did get some remarkable sounds out of their instruments, I'm just not sure what I'm listening to. _Lenger_ is remarkable. A string quartet, huh? Moe appears an interesting guy, this video is of a pretty good guitar workout by him and some other guy. I think Moe is a little extreme for me. I love that there are people out there doing this kind of stuff, but it's just not for me.

_Tale of Lead and Light_ is a pretty good string quartet. I can hear the above mentioned Beethoven influence. The first movement and the last were good, the middle seemed to get lost temporarily, but overall not bad. There really didn't seem anything holding it all together, which is maybe not necessary in an 11 minute piece. I checked out some of her other stuff and this was the most conventional piece I found.


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## 20centrfuge (Apr 13, 2007)

Knorf,

What an excellent concert! All three pieces are new to me. My initial reaction to the first few moments of the Shaw was "beautiful but conventional" but then it seemed to blossom in new ways and became a fresh creation.

The Carter piece was one I listened to a bunch. I like that it is a texturally transparent work and not too thick. I enjoyed it very much. Horn is an instrument that has to be handled the right way or it can sound woofy or tubby. He wrote beautifully for the horn and brought out its best qualities.

I have been a John Adams fan for a while and I thought about all the reasons why I like his music as I listened to this. There is something in his music that I feel echoes the anxiety and pace of our information, sound-byte, trafficky world. Yet his music is never pessimistic to me. There is always a beauty there. In addition his music conveys motion really well, it is pointillistic, like Georges Seurat, with dashes of sparkling color and syncopation. I know not all followers of contemporary music like him, I guess because his music is rooted in tonalism and has a consumer-friendly air about it.

Anyway, a great week of music. Thanks Knorf.


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## 20centrfuge (Apr 13, 2007)

*PLEASE VOTE ON THE WORK WE'LL LISTEN TO FOR THE 2 WEEKS OF DECEMBER 27-JANUARY 9:*

Rank these four in your order of preference by December 19. It is probable that we will be able to listen a second of these four before the end of February:

Neuwirth, Olga: Lost Highway (opera) [about 90 minutes]
Rihm, Wolfgang: Requiem-Strophen [about 80 minutes]
Saunders, Rebecca: Yes [about 75 minutes]
Soper, Kate: IPSA DIXIT [about 90 minutes]


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## gregorx (Jan 25, 2020)

1 Neuwirth, Olga: Lost Highway (opera) [about 90 minutes]
2 Saunders, Rebecca: Yes [about 75 minutes]
3 Rihm, Wolfgang: Requiem-Strophen [about 80 minutes]
4 Soper, Kate: IPSA DIXIT [about 90 minutes]


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## Kilgore Trout (Feb 26, 2014)

1. Soper, Kate: IPSA DIXIT [about 90 minutes]

.............

2. Neuwirth, Olga: Lost Highway (opera) [about 90 minutes]
3. Rihm, Wolfgang: Requiem-Strophen [about 80 minutes]
4. Saunders, Rebecca: Yes [about 75 minutes]


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Saunders



100000000 lines



Rihm 
Neuwirth
Soper


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## calvinpv (Apr 20, 2015)

Soper
Neuwirth
Saunders
Rihm


Of course, we could just listen to all of them...


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

calvinpv said:


> Soper
> Neuwirth
> Saunders
> Rihm
> ...


Not possible, the Soper is unlistenable. And so is the Rihm - third pressing Brahms. And the Neuwirth is an opera so that's out of the question without a video.


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## calvinpv (Apr 20, 2015)

Mandryka said:


> Not possible, the Soper is unlistenable. And so is the Rihm - third pressing Brahms. And the Neuwirth is an opera so that's out of the question without a video.


Well, I didn't mean we listen to all of them in one week, but over the course of a few weeks.

How is the Soper unlistenable? It uses similar extended techniques as the Saunders work.
For the Rihm, I've never heard it, so I can't comment.
As for the Neuwirth: true, there is no video. But there is the film which a great substitute. Just imagine the movie while you're listening to the opera.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

calvinpv said:


> How is the Soper unlistenable? .


It's annoying, too cheerful and lively!


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## Simon Moon (Oct 10, 2013)

I am a bit late, so I will pick it up on the picks of 12/6.

Caroline Shaw - Entr'acte, for string orchestra

This started out a bit bland for my tastes, but a bit haunting. But then became more interesting. I will listen to it a couple more times, as well as other pieces by her.

Elliott Carter - Horn Concerto

Not much I can say about Carter. One of my top 5 or 10 composers, and this piece is confirmation of that. This works on several levels. I am not even that much of a fan of horn as solo instrument in concertos, but Carter's composition makes up for that. 

John Adams - Guide to Strange Places 

Have never been a major Adams fan, and while this piece probably won't change my mind, I do like it more than most of his work.

This was fun!

I'll see if I can get caught up.


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## calvinpv (Apr 20, 2015)

Apologies for being late. This site was unbelievably slow for me all week until today.

The John Adams work was the most interesting of the three by far. I like some of his earlier works, but I find his more recent stuff sounding like the scores to a Disney film. So it's a surprise that I enjoyed Guide to Strange Places. Still sounded Disney-esque a bit, but I also heard a lot of Stravinsky for some reason, especially in the first several minutes with the locomotive rhythm in the strings and other instruments jumping in with an irregular spread of accents. Reminded me of the _Rite_.

I loved the orchestration in the Carter piece. As 20centrfuge says, very transparent, and I liked how each instrumental family acted was treated separately as different entities taking turns in a conversation, except for those occasional moments when everyone "was in agreement", so to speak, and played thunderous chord strikes in tutti. The horn solo, however, didn't move me. Maybe I just have a problem with extended brass solos (apologies to all the brass players out there: it's my problem, not yours), but I always find them to be a bit sluggish, even when they go fast. Oh well, I'll figure my problem out one day.

The Shaw piece felt too fragmented and the use of extended techniques felt a bit cheap, like they were being used as a replacement for any structural development. For example, about 2:30 minutes in, everyone starts lightly sliding their bow across the strings for a pitchless noise effect. It's to the same rhythm as before, so you wonder what's the point, since it's basically what came before minus the notes. But before you know it, the piece moves on to the next bright shiny object.


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## calvinpv (Apr 20, 2015)

Poppe, Enno: *Schweiß* (Sweat), for cello solo & bass flute, bass clarinet, violin & viola (2010) [4]
Poppe, Enno: *Schnur* (Line), for violin & orchestra (2019) [19:30]
Poppe, Enno: *Trauben* (Grapes), for piano trio (2004-2005) [11:30]
Poppe, Enno: *Rundfunk* (Radio), for nine electric keyboards & nine laptops, 1st movement (2015-2018) [19]

Is it okay if I added Schweiß to the concert as a little appetizer?

*The above is the recommended listening order*, from easiest to most difficult work ("difficult" doesn't mean the worst; I actually think Rundfunk is the best of the four. But if your ears aren't acclimated to Poppe's style, it's uh ... it's trippy, especially that magnificent ending).

Schnur score can be read here
Rundfunk score can be read here

This link here takes you the score publisher website. You'll see some links on the left-hand side to some program notes and interviews for Schnur and Rundfunk.

There are several other performances of Trauben on youtube, but I included just the commercial recording below.


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## calvinpv (Apr 20, 2015)

I didn't have time to read and write up a summary on the chosen works in particular, so I'll just explain why I'm really drawn to Enno Poppe's music in general (pronounced Eh-no Po-puh). For me, the best composers are not only those who write beautiful or exciting music but are also those who open my ears to completely new ways of organizing sound through new theoretical systems and can get successfully get my ears to hear that new organization by attuning them towards new types of aural cues, new types of attention-grabbing "hooks", etc. For me, Poppe is one of two or three current contemporary composers who fall in this category.

As to this second point, I know a lot people on TC have problems with composers who engage with overly obscure, needlessly academic organizational systems just to flex their math skills or their technical prowess. But for me, I have no problems with it whatsoever: I want to hear obscure ways of organizing music, I want to hear conventions broken, and I'm even okay with music that's mathematically dense. I have no problems with enjoying music on a purely intellectual level, to the extent I can do so (though, no doubt, what initially attracts me to exploring some avant-garde composers more than others is their non-intellectual content: Poppe's _Schnur_, for example, has a poignant solo violin whose glissandi allude to the exotic music of East Asia and the Middle East, and his _Rundfunk_ is basically one giant psychedelic acid trip).

However, I do have one condition: I should be able to _hear_ the systems in the music to some degree, and there should be a reason why the composer chose one system over another, meaning one system provides a unique aural experience that another could not. Two examples of what I mean:

•Some composers like Boulez will use a technique called "pitch multiplication", which is really an umbrella term for several techniques, such as taking the Cartesian product of two pitch-class sets, or transposing or even multiplying a pc set by the values of another set, or doing all these things to the interval structure of a pc set instead of the pc set itself, etc. Placing a pc set (for example, as a single chord) and its multiplied self right next to each other in the music gives the aural effect of the set suddenly exploding in height and in density. No doubt, a simple example and is probably most noticeable when the pitch sets are really small.

•In some of Xenakis's later works like Jonchaies, Tetora or À l'île de Gorée, he uses structures called sieves, which are rules for sifting out particular integers. These sieves usually produce patterns that recur periodically every nth integer, whatever that integer may be; for example, the major and minor scales can be rewritten as sieves whose interval patterns repeat every 12th integer. But to make things interesting, you can produce sieves that have no periodicity or have a periodicity that doesn't occur at the octave. This will produce "scales", so to speak, whose interval patterns change from octave to octave or have patterns that do repeat but are smaller/larger than an octave. I don't know how Xenakis uses sieves more generally, but I can really hear the non-repeating scales in the late harpsichord works when the harpsichord makes runs up and down a few octaves at a time. You feel disoriented because they all share the same tonic note - the note that begins each new octave. But from there, the scales diverge in their content. Xenakis is basically toying with your expectations.

There are certainly other examples, such as serialist music as a whole, Messiaen's use of additive rhythms, the use of ring modulation to create sum and difference tones (e.g. found in Poppe's _Rad_ and _Salz_ but also in Vivier's late music), Rădulescu's obsessive use of the natural harmonic series and the golden ratio, etc. There are even many examples having nothing to do with mathematical formalisms, such as Rihm's overpainting method and the looping aesthetics of minimalism. All of these produce unique psychological/phenomenological effects.

Anyways, back to Poppe. Poppe is known for using what are called Lindenmayer Systems, or L-Systems for short (see the end below), after having read Lindenmayer's book _The Algorithmic Beauty of Plants_ in the early nineties. I still haven't found an analysis of how Poppe uses them in specific works, and L-Systems are probably too complex for the ear to pick out without some outside help. But I have sort of an idea of how they could be used in music, and the incredibly rich aural experiences a composer can squeeze out of them, if the composer is careful (which I think Poppe is).

What I find interesting in his music:
•At a superficial level, I absolutely love his glissandi, which in my opinion are some of the best in the business. Apparently, they come from his love of traditional Korean music, though Poppe is by no means emulating traditional Korean musical practices. But what I love about them is how they resemble inflexions in speech: the sighing, the exclamations, the questioning, the imperatives, etc. Which seems particularly apropos since L-Systems produce strings of symbols, strings that, while not resembling coherent sentences from a linguist's perspective, can be translated into the musical equivalent of a sentence - what we call a musical "motif" or a "theme". Combine an L-System with these glissandi, and Poppe is making the musical equivalent of spoken dialogue. Or at least, it comes off that way.

•At a deeper level, Poppe's music really opens my mind to what constitutes a motif or theme more generally. First of all, they're not singular, homogenous entities but are already composite entities. A melody, for instance, is not just the particular sequence of notes we hum to ourselves but also includes a particular rhythm, a particular rising/falling motion, a particular register, particular embellishments or playing techniques, etc. But it's easy to forget about all of this because a lot of more traditional music will often repeat the melody verbatim or nearly so, giving the false impression that they can't be broken down further. L-Systems, on the other hand, make this all too apparent, since you can assign each element of a motif to a symbol, run these symbols through the L-System, and be surprised at all the different combinations of elements that are generated (most likely, you will never hear the original motif, but you may hear it partially). Or, you don't even have to create a motif ahead of time which you then break down with the L-Systems: you can just randomly choose some elements for your system and see what happens.

•This idea of a motif as a composite entity raises some interesting questions about identity and repetition in music. For example:

oTo prevent the free-for-all, chaotic madhouse that L-Systems are capable of producing, should some restrictions be placed on the motivic elements? Probably, if I had to answer. If I were a composer, I would use elements that are so distinct from one another that I can pick them out without following some formal diagram of the music (for example, instead of having a pair of sixteenths as one element and a triplet of sixteenths as another element, I would do a pair of sixteenths and a septuplet of 32nds). This probably explains why Poppe uses glissandi a lot: they have a very distinct sound. Of course, you don't want to completely rid of the chaos: chaos is part of the fun with these L-Systems.

oWhat counts as the repetition of a musical event? Repetition is important to consider because it's what establishes relationships between the elements. When two elements are juxtaposed side by side one time, you think it's accidental or unimportant. But if they're juxtaposed a second time, then your mind begins to combine them into a single entity and store that combination for later use, in the event it pops up again. And the more repetition, the greater weight you give it. L-Systems are great at raising issues about pattern recognition precisely because they undercut it so much. We hear tons of repeating juxtapositions in Poppe's music, but we are constantly asking ourselves how lasting these juxtapositions are and how far do they extend (i.e. are these juxtapositions made up of 2 elements, 3, 4, 5, …? The number is always changing). For example, the opening of _Trauben_ is a textbook case of this. Our mind is immediately attracted to a four-element event in both the violin and cello: 1. a glissando 2. from G to B 3. that is ascending 4. and is of short duration. But we soon realize how mistaken we were in assigning importance to this particular combination: the distance between each glissando begins to shorten to the point where they happen back-to-back, more notes get added to each glissando, G and B are no longer the start and stop points, etc. It's a fascinating aural experience, constantly alternating between states of identifying and mis-identifying a motif.

oThere are also some interesting questions about how to describe the musical forms of Poppe's works and what those questions mean for other types of music - in fact, there are too many questions about form, so I'll just end here by noting that you could credibly describe his music as both pieces of endless variation and pieces made up of a single unfolding gesture. You would think singularity and variation (which implies multiplicity) would be in opposition, but I think Poppe's music upends that dichotomy.

***In a nutshell, L-Systems are basically formal grammars that describe how to construct the appropriate strings (or words) to a given language, with a crucial difference being in the way the construction rules are applied. In the formal grammars looked at by Chomsky, for instance, you can only apply one rule at a time on a given string to produce a new string (or in mathematical logic, you produce new well-formed formulas by concatenating logical symbols to old well-formed formulas, one symbol at a time). But in L-Systems, you can apply as many construction rules as possible to a given string, including the possibility of applying the same rule more than once.

The downside of L-Systems is that the number of appropriate strings in a given language will be smaller than the number produced from other formal grammars because you can't control the order of applying the rules. But the upside is that the strings you do produce will grow really fast in size and will most likely develop some internal patterns; and, if you were to translate the strings into geometric shapes (using, for instance, the so-called "Turtle" interpretation), they will produce some interesting fractals like Koch curves as well as provide good models for many plants.

A very simple example: Take the L-System comprised of a 2-symbol alphabet {a, b}, the symbol "a" as the axiom, and the two productions rules a-->b, b-->ab (which read: "if you have a, replace it with b" and "if you have b, replace it with ab"). Starting with the axiom you get the sequence of strings:
a
b
ab
bab
abbab
bababbab
abbabbababbab
…
Since every symbol in the alphabet can be replaced through a rule, this sequence will never end. As for patterns, notice that every string is simply the previous two strings in the sequence concatenated together; also, if you were to take the sequence of string lengths, you'd get the Fibonacci sequence. Suffice it to say there are an infinite number of L-Systems to use and an infinite number of ways to translate them into music.

If you liked the Poppe concert, I'd check these out (all on youtube):

_Thema mit 840 Variationen_, for piano solo
_Rad_, for two electric pianos and two laptops
_Interzone_, multimedia work
_Wald_, for four string quartets
_Speicher_, for large ensemble (his masterpiece, in my opinion; score here, program note here)
The rest of _Rundfunk_

Finally, I did find some further reading material on Poppe, but it's in German and the second link is behind a paywall. Apologies for that. I'm just posting them here in case these aren't obstacles for you and you're interested. As an aside, these two journals -- MusikTexte and Musik-Konzepte -- appear to be *excellent* resources on contemporary music.
here
here


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## Kilgore Trout (Feb 26, 2014)

Mandryka said:


> It's [...] too cheerful and lively!


So it's good music for people who aren't dead inside?


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

I didn't know about L systems. One composer I am interested in is Bernhard Lang, and the monodology processes have something in common with whatever Poppe's doing in Runfunk I think. The way Poppe uses string instruments, like that cello in Schweiss, always makes me think of what Sciarrino does in things like the saxophone quartet - it's a human sound. This is another Poppe example which I was listening to a bit recently, because I'm interested in solo music for string instruments






That being said, my favourite recording from Poppe is this, his earlier music is the music I prefer


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Kilgore Trout said:


> So it's good music for people who aren't dead inside?


Yes you are certainly right


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## calvinpv (Apr 20, 2015)

Mandryka said:


> I didn't know about L systems. One composer I am interested in is Bernhard Lang, and the monodology processes have something in common with whatever Poppe's doing in Runfunk I think. The way Poppe uses string instruments, like that cello in Schweiss, always makes me think of what Sciarrino does in things like the saxophone quartet - it's a human sound. This is another Poppe example which I was listening to a bit recently, because I'm interested in solo music for string instruments


Here's Bernhard Lang's website, where you can read some of his writings. There might be something about L Systems, or at least some text mentioning it in passing. My guess is he knows about them and they would certainly explain how each loops get more complex with each repetition. Actually, now that you mention it, Rundfunk is a very Lang-ian work because every 45 seconds or so, the complexity levels seem to reset and the systems start over. But you should hear the second and third movements of Rundfunk, which I didn't include for the concert. They're a bit more typical Poppe.

Which Sciarrino work are you talking about?

Yeah, Haare is a pretty good work for a solo instrument. And I think it captures the essence of what Poppe is doing. I just hate that background static in that video.



> That being said, my favourite recording from Poppe is this, his earlier music is the music I prefer
> 
> View attachment 147407


I haven't heard that recording except I have Rad on another disc, the 2003 Donaueschingen set. Rad is such a good piece, I was seriously considering it for my concert, but I already had Rundfunk.

Have you heard Speicher? It's probably my favorite work of his. Here's a program note for it.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

This Sciarrino -- but it may be my imagination






And Quartet 9/ii -- it's not on youtube, but this is not far off






Thanks for the Lang website.


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## calvinpv (Apr 20, 2015)

Mandryka said:


> This Sciarrino -- but it may be my imagination
> 
> 
> 
> ...


By the way, there are two versions of Schweiss. The one I posted is for cello solo and four other instruments, but Poppe wrote an earlier version for cello and electric keyboard/electric organ. You can listen to that one here.

Also, I found this article, and though I can't read it because it's behind a paywall, the abstract mentions Alberto Posadas, Hanspeter Kyburz and Philippe Manoury as users of L Systems as well.

I'm listening to the Sciarrino sax quartet right now. It reminds me a little bit of Grisey's Solo pour deux and Billone's 1+1=1.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

calvinpv said:


> By the way, there are two versions of Schweiss. The one I posted is for cello solo and four other instruments, but Poppe wrote an earlier version for cello and electric keyboard/electric organ. You can listen to that one here.
> 
> Also, I found this article, and though I can't read it because it's behind a paywall, the abstract mentions Alberto Posadas, Hanspeter Kyburz and Philippe Manoury as users of L Systems as well (see here).
> 
> I'm listening to the Sciarrino sax quartet right now. It reminds me a little bit of Grisey's Solo pour deux and Billone's 1+1=1.


Do you understand French? If so, it's worth listening to Manoury's College de France lectures.


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## calvinpv (Apr 20, 2015)

Mandryka said:


> Do you understand French? If so, it's worth listening to Manoury's College de France lectures.


My reading skills are decent but it's been a few years since I had to listen to any French. Is this what you're talking about? This looks fantastic.


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## calvinpv (Apr 20, 2015)

Mandryka said:


> Do you understand French? If so, it's worth listening to Manoury's College de France lectures.


By the way, I recently found this youtube channel full of lectures held at IRCAM by the biggest names in contemporary music.
https://www.youtube.com/c/SplendidEducation/videos


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

These

https://www.college-de-france.fr/site/en-search/index.htm

A lot of it is about the details of composition, but as a listener it's interesting to get a bit more insight into how musicians think. You would get much more out of it I think.

(I assume you know Stockhausen's lectures on YouTube)


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## Simon Moon (Oct 10, 2013)

*Poppe, Enno: Schweiß (Sweat), for cello solo & bass flute, bass clarinet, violin & viola*

This piece was, for me, just ok. Maybe a bit too sparse for my tastes?

*Poppe, Enno: Schnur (Line), for violin & orchestra*

Now we're talking! Liked this a lot. Especially the last 6 minutes, or so. I will probably seek out a recording of this.

*Poppe, Enno: Trauben (Grapes), for piano trio*

Another winner for me. Loved the way the tension built.

*Poppe, Enno: Rundfunk (Radio), for nine electric keyboards & nine laptops, 1st movement*

I have tried many times to get into electronic classical music, but it has never clicked for me. I have nothing against electronic keyboards (most of the other genres of music I listen to have heavy use of them), but not in classical.

I will give this piece another attempt, but I do not have any hopes that this will be the one that sways me.

I'm enjoying the hell out of this thread!


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## calvinpv (Apr 20, 2015)

Simon Moon said:


> *Poppe, Enno: Schweiß (Sweat), for cello solo & bass flute, bass clarinet, violin & viola*
> 
> This piece was, for me, just ok. Maybe a bit too sparse for my tastes?
> 
> ...


That live performance of Schnur is the only one I know of. I don't think there's a commercial recording yet, but there probably will be one in the future, since it's one of Poppe's better known works.

As for not liking Rundfunk: do you like Ligeti's mass texture music (e.g. Lontano, Atmosphères, Lux aeterna) or Penderecki's early works? If you do, try to apply the same mindset for Rundfunk as you do for Ligeti and Penderecki. Rundfunk can also be thought of as a mass texture piece. When I enjoy these types of pieces, I don't focus on each instrument individually -- unless they momentarily have an interesting turn of phrase or coloring effect -- but rather imagine each contributing to a higher-order, multifaceted, constantly evolving sound entity. I wouldn't worry about issues of counterpoint and harmony because that forces your mind to treat each part separately, which brings in ideas of conflict and cacophony and therefore a miserable experience.

Also, this may sound counterintuitive, but I listen to Rundfunk with headphones. While that does make the music a lot louder, it does make it harder for the nine instruments to separate out into different voices before reaching my ears. Again, I like hearing Rundfunk as a mass texture piece.

My two cents.


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## Simon Moon (Oct 10, 2013)

calvinpv said:


> That live performance of Schnur is the only one I know of. I don't think there's a commercial recording yet, but there probably will be one in the future, since it's one of Poppe's better known works.
> 
> As for not liking Rundfunk: do you like Ligeti's mass texture music (e.g. Lontano, Atmosphères, Lux aeterna) or Penderecki's early works? If you do, try to apply the same mindset for Rundfunk as you do for Ligeti and Penderecki. Rundfunk can also be thought of as a mass texture piece. When I enjoy these types of pieces, I don't focus on each instrument individually -- unless they momentarily have an interesting turn of phrase or coloring effect -- but rather imagine each contributing to a higher-order, multifaceted, constantly evolving sound entity. I wouldn't worry about issues of counterpoint and harmony because that forces your mind to treat each part separately, which brings in ideas of conflict and cacophony and therefore a miserable experience.
> 
> ...


I do like Ligeti's and Penderecki's early works.

Thanks for the recommendation for an approach for listening to this piece.

I will give it another try with that in mind.


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## gregorx (Jan 25, 2020)

Shaw's _Entr'acte for String Orchestra_ repeats that catchy four note melody way too often for me. This is a motif in need of an L-system. The middle section was interesting, but then it was back to more of the same. I will check out other stuff by her when I get a chance.

I really haven't listen to enough Elliott Carter, so was glad to see his _Horn Concerto_ on the program. I think his string quartets are vey good and he did a piano concerto I like, but I haven't listened to much of his orchestral works. This one is pretty good, maybe a bit on the brassy side, but some interesting percussion. I know there is stuff out there by Carter that I will like a lot more than this.

John Adams has a pretty large body of work and I have to say I really haven't found a whole lot I like. He did a couple of string quartets which aren't bad and a good violin concerto. But a lot of his orchestral works have a - dare I say it - certain over-the-top quality about them. This one struck me pretty much the same way. A shorter version of _Turangalila Symphony_, another over the top work.


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## Knorf (Jan 16, 2020)

20centrfuge said:


> *PLEASE VOTE ON THE WORK WE'LL LISTEN TO FOR THE 2 WEEKS OF DECEMBER 27-JANUARY 9:*
> 
> Rank these four in your order of preference by December 19. It is probable that we will be able to listen a second of these four before the end of February:


1. Rihm, Wolfgang: Requiem-Strophen [about 80 minutes]
2. Saunders, Rebecca: Yes [about 75 minutes]
3. Neuwirth, Olga: Lost Highway (opera) [about 90 minutes]
4. Soper, Kate: IPSA DIXIT [about 90 minutes]


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Another fabulous bit of Poppe I was listening to last week and forgot about yesterday


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## calvinpv (Apr 20, 2015)

Mandryka said:


> Another fabulous bit of Poppe I was listening to last week and forgot about yesterday


Haven't heard this one yet. I'll check it out later. Apparently, this is the world premiere and was live streamed a few weeks ago, along with a revised version of Poppe's Prozession.

https://www.philharmonie.tv/veranstaltung/77/?play=true

Program notes:
https://www.ricordi.com/en-US/News/2020/12/Poppe-WP-of-Prozession-and-Blut.aspx


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## allaroundmusicenthusiast (Jun 3, 2020)

Loved Schnur by Poppe, am i wrong to call it a violin concerto? The glissandi are amazing and it is beautifully built. But loved even more the piano trio Trauben, what a buildup of tension and craziness, it is absolutely remarkable that it works while tearing everything apart and just going on and on relentlessly, amazing work. It reminded me a bit of Rihm's first fremde szene which at one point just hammers away at one chord and yet it can build up such tension too, it's a type of music making that really makes me feel great, joyous even. I had only listened to Speicher and from what I recall and what I wrote down i didn't like it at all, I recall there was a fair bit of jazz involved, and while I do love jazz I think that not many european composers do it justice, so I prefer to stay far away from european classical works that attempt to dip their toes in it. But now I have a different view of Poppe thanks to these works.
I'm going to go and listen to the whole of Rundfunk now, not just the first movement, will check back if I have anything to say!


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## Kilgore Trout (Feb 26, 2014)

_Poppe, Enno: Schweiß (Sweat), for cello solo & bass flute, bass clarinet, violin & viola_

I don't see the point of this piece.

_Poppe, Enno: Schnur (Line), for violin & orchestra_

I'm not sure Poppe's usage of glissandis adds much to Xenakis' music (especially the pieces where he used Brownian motions), and Poppe's music sometimes sounds like some watered down Xenakis with a post-modernist flavor, but the piece is well constructed. Good.

_Poppe, Enno: Trauben (Grapes), for piano trio_

Again, the piece's form is audible, and the playful beginning is amusing, but apart from that, I don't hear anything special. An average piece, nothing bad, nothing great.

_Poppe, Enno: Rundfunk (Radio), for nine electric keyboards & nine laptops, 1st movement_

Not for me.

I've changed my opinion of Poppe from "awful" to "might be good sometimes" so that is a win for calvinpv.


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## calvinpv (Apr 20, 2015)

allaroundmusicenthusiast said:


> Loved Schnur by Poppe, am i wrong to call it a violin concerto? The glissandi are amazing and it is beautifully built. But loved even more the piano trio Trauben, what a buildup of tension and craziness, it is absolutely remarkable that it works while tearing everything apart and just going on and on relentlessly, amazing work. It reminded me a bit of Rihm's first fremde szene which at one point just hammers away at one chord and yet it can build up such tension too, it's a type of music making that really makes me feel great, joyous even. I had only listened to Speicher and from what I recall and what I wrote down i didn't like it at all, I recall there was a fair bit of jazz involved, and while I do love jazz I think that not many european composers do it justice, so I prefer to stay far away from european classical works that attempt to dip their toes in it. But now I have a different view of Poppe thanks to these works.
> I'm going to go and listen to the whole of Rundfunk now, not just the first movement, will check back if I have anything to say!


Even Poppe calls Schnur a violin concerto, so you're good there.

Yeah, I can understand not liking the jazz elements in Speicher, though they don't bother me too much. Maybe check out Speicher V again. I don't recall there being jazz in that movement, but I do recall the buildup of tension being incredible.






If you like Rundfunk, check out Rad (German for Wheel). The ending is bat**** crazy. Only two electric pianos are playing, but two laptops are constantly retuning them with different scales -- about a 100 scales total, to be exact --, and many of these scales are fed into the pianos simultaneously.


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## allaroundmusicenthusiast (Jun 3, 2020)

calvinpv said:


> If you like Rundfunk, check out Rad (German for Wheel). The ending is bat**** crazy. Only two electric pianos are playing, but two laptops are constantly retuning them with different scales -- about a 100 scales total, to be exact --, and many of these scales are fed into the pianos simultaneously.


I'm sorry calvin, but I didn't like rundfunk at all (maybe the 3rd movement was ok), and I say that as someone who likes electronic music. I will give Speicher another chance, tho, and maybe Rad too.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Kilgore Trout said:


> _Poppe, Enno: Schweiß (Sweat), for cello solo & bass flute, bass clarinet, violin & viola_
> 
> I don't see the point of this piece.
> 
> [.


It is a love song and a study in cello glissandi and quiet expressive playing. The end, where all three instruments come in is magical I think.


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## calvinpv (Apr 20, 2015)

Mandryka said:


> It is a love song and a study in cello glissandi and quiet expressive playing. The end, where all three instruments come in is magical I think.


Yes, this is correct. A bunch of composers in 2010 wrote short love songs for the 25th anniversary of ensemble recherche. They can all be found on a CD from Wergo. From the liner notes:



> Enno Poppe's pieces are known for titles derived from "everyday life" such as Obst, Markt, Altbau, Knochen, Scherben, or Salz [Fruit, Market, Old Building, Bones, Shards, Salt]. His love song fits appropriately into this series, with the title Schweiß [Sweat] - an arrangement of an aria from his Robinson Crusoe opera Arbeit Nahrung Wohnung [Work Nourishment Lodging]. This solo for violoncello with ensemble definitely produces perspiration: the cello part is entirely played on the C string, the lowest and thickest of the instrument's four strings. With a few exceptions, everything is played with a single finger and the pitches reached through glissandi; everything is molto espressivo and ppp. The cellist is seconded over long stretches only by the bass flute and bass clarinet, joined just toward the end by a brief appearance of the violin and viola using practice mutes. The effect of this instrumental glissade is astonishing. One feels as if transported from a concert of contemporary music into the sound world of an Indian raga.


To be fair, though, an earlier version of the piece also appears _Schrank_ (Dresser), so love may not have been on his mind when he wrote it.


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## 20centrfuge (Apr 13, 2007)

So I am introduced to this composer. I find his music fascinating and am impressed with how original it sounds in a world where originality sometimes seems played out. Here are my thoughts on the pieces:

Poppe, Enno: Schweiß (Sweat), for cello solo & bass flute, bass clarinet, violin & viola
_a decent introduction to Poppe_

Poppe, Enno: Schnur (Line), for violin & orchestra
_Seems to be the most sophisticated and mature work of the grouping. I am on my second time through it and still coming to terms with what it is saying. I do have to say that I am impressed with the violinist for memorizing and giving such a committed performance of this work. I also enjoy the dialogue that the violin has with the ensemble and that it builds to a convincing climax before some resolving music takes us to the end._

Poppe, Enno: Trauben (Grapes), for piano trio
_I really enjoyed this piece. Overall, I found the piano part to be the key to understanding and following the music. I like the energy of the work and how at times it has a boisterous funkiness._

Poppe, Enno: Rundfunk (Radio), for nine electric keyboards & nine laptops, 1st movement
_I like this work, the electronic vibe and all._


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## 20centrfuge (Apr 13, 2007)

It's been challenging for me to rank these four works. I think I would likely enjoy the Rihm more than some of the others but I also feel like I am more versed in Rihm's music. Because of that I am ranking works that represent uncharted territory higher. If we could see the Neuwirth as an opera it would be a resoundingly obvious first choice for me, but even though we won't have the opera to see, I still think it would be a good work to tackle as a group.

1 Neuwirth, Olga: Lost Highway (opera) [about 90 minutes]
2 Saunders, Rebecca: Yes [about 75 minutes]
3 Soper, Kate: IPSA DIXIT [about 90 minutes]
4 Rihm, Wolfgang: Requiem-Strophen [about 80 minutes]


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## Kilgore Trout (Feb 26, 2014)

Mandryka said:


> It is a love song and a study in cello glissandi and quiet expressive playing. The end, where all three instruments come in is magical I think.


My remark wasn't a question.


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## allaroundmusicenthusiast (Jun 3, 2020)

I've already listened to Saunders' Yes and it didn't really click with me, still I could give it another chance perhaps since I really enjoy a lot of other works of hers. What I've heard from Neuwirth I didn't like, but I never gave Lost Highway a chance, then and I've never heard of Soper, so I guess my votes will go as follows:

1 Soper, Kate: IPSA DIXIT [about 90 minutes]
2 Rihm, Wolfgang: Requiem-Strophen [about 80 minutes]
3 Neuwirth, Olga: Lost Highway (opera) [about 90 minutes]
4 Saunders, Rebecca: Yes [about 75 minutes]


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Listened to another Poppe thing today - Part iii of Interzone. And I also listened to the second act of Stockhausen’s Freitag from Licht. Can’t help feel that those Stockhausen operas are a major aesthetic influence of a whole strand of current music - Lim, Barrett and . . . Poppe in Part 3 of Interzone. Expressive, serial, extended instrumental and electronic techniques and, most importantly, polyphonic.


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## gregorx (Jan 25, 2020)

Enno Poppe

I'm not much of a fan of the classic virtuoso violin concerto, but I don't think the composer did much for the violin in the dull first movement of _Schnur_ . Things picked up in the second with the orchestral parts being very good. Overall I think a good concerto but the style or technique employed by the violinist is to me far from the best use of the instrument that is capable of creating the most beautiful sounds in the orchestra. The piece is at it's best when the violin is taking a rest.

And _Schweiß_ didn't do much for the cello, although the back and forth with the bass clarinet is pretty good, had a kind of Asian folk music sound that I like. The piece gets points for its use of the bass clarinet, but other than that I thought it was just okay. Probably best that it is short in length.

Another slow start with _Trauben_ before it picked up about midway through, at which point ensued some serious sawing and the piano player went a little crazy. Pretty good from there on out with the last 2 or 3 minutes being about the most musical of the whole piece. The best work in the show.

_Rundfunk_ I gave a good chance but it did not have enough good in it for such a long piece.

Not sure I would want to go much further with this composer. His compositions are difficult and even though I find moments (even in R.), I don't think there's much for me to like with him. To me, his music lacks color.


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## 20centrfuge (Apr 13, 2007)

I’m looking forward to your concert this coming week gregorx.


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## 20centrfuge (Apr 13, 2007)

XL work voting was very, very close but the top 2 are Neuwirth and Soper. We’ll do Neuwirth at the end of December and Soper in February.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Is there anything to read in English or French about the structure of Enno Poppe's Speicher? I'm starting to get more seriously interested.



> Music, as an art form, is alive. Rules and laws of musical composition are there to be reflected, updated, substituted or disposed. It starts with the definition of its smallest element: a note. Up to how much pitch variation is a note with vibrato still a single note? There is a continuum of events between vibrato, portamento, glissando and microtonal deviations. Nothing of this is covered by our music theory. Moreover, there is a barely researched relationship between tone and intonation about which performing musicians intuitively know much more than composers do, with their tendency towards taxonomy. The Speicher Project is a complex structure of variations and repetitions. Across all dimensions the elements are always in the same coherent relation. The very first viola notes ("evolving variation") correlate exactly with the form on a small, middle and large scale. In order to move on and remain interesting, a musical piece, besides variety, needs something one can actually recognize. In that sense everything can be recognizable - an individual sound as much as a whole movement (as in a recapitulation). There is, therefore, no need to throw in idea after idea, but rather to create a network of derivations within music.


http://taleaensemble.org/enno-poppe-speicher/


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## calvinpv (Apr 20, 2015)

Mandryka said:


> Is there anything to read in English or French about the structure of Enno Poppe's Speicher? I'm starting to get more seriously interested.
> 
> http://taleaensemble.org/enno-poppe-speicher/


This:
https://issuu.com/londonsinfonietta/docs/poppe_pg_6-9

Speicher is a great piece. There's only one recording of it (on the 2013 Donaueschinger box set), but the fifth movement of that recording is significantly cut short for some reason. I don't know how they messed that up. So to hear the whole thing, I'd check out this playlist:
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLz6771rzo2PClKh_fuSQApYVDIu5ljOgQ

EDIT: If you can read German and are willing to dish out a few Euros, there's also this issue of the journal Musik-Konzepte dedicated to Poppe. One of the articles is about the second movement of Speicher and another article focuses on sum and difference tones in Poppe's music with the sixth movement of Speicher as a case study. 
https://etk-muenchen.de/search/Details.aspx?sid=09313311&sort=6&sname=MUSIK-KONZEPTE&page=1&ISBN=9783869165615#.X9-xCOlKjGL


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## calvinpv (Apr 20, 2015)

Mandryka said:


> Listened to another Poppe thing today - Part iii of Interzone. And I also listened to the second act of Stockhausen's Freitag from Licht. Can't help feel that those Stockhausen operas are a major aesthetic influence of a whole strand of current music - Lim, Barrett and . . . Poppe in Part 3 of Interzone. Expressive, serial, extended instrumental and electronic techniques and, most importantly, polyphonic.


And this post reminds me once again that I need to take a deep dive into Stockhausen. I've heard all the early works and a few works of the Klang cycle, but nothing in between. I think that will be a listening project for me next year: listening to every single work of his.

So I can't comment about Interzone's relationship to Licht. But one thing I'm beginning to pick up on as I read more and more about contemporary music is that Stockhausen the teacher (not just the composer) forms a central node in a giant tree of teacher/student relationships, and the period of Stockhausen's life that a composer studied under him will partly determine how that younger composer will create music. I think this is because Stockhausen would present his own works and musical theories in the classroom (apparently to the point of being accused of self-aggrandizement), and obviously Stockhausen's music was constantly evolving, so whatever ideas he was working on at a particular moment in time would be what the students would take from him. I couldn't give you any more specifics than this, but I have a hunch this is what happened. One of Enno Poppe's teachers is the composer Friedrich Goldmann. Goldmann studied with Stockhausen in 1959 (according to wikipedia), the year Stockhausen composed Zyklus, Carré and Refrain. I wonder if the ideas behind those three pieces made their way into Poppe's music via Goldmann's teachings, whatever those ideas may be?


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

calvinpv said:


> And this post reminds me once again that I need to take a deep dive into Stockhausen. I've heard all the early works and a few works of the Klang cycle, but nothing in between. I think that will be a listening project for me next year: listening to every single work of his.
> 
> So I can't comment about Interzone's relationship to Licht. But one thing I'm beginning to pick up on as I read more and more about contemporary music is that Stockhausen the teacher (not just the composer) forms a central node in a giant tree of teacher/student relationships, and the period of Stockhausen's life that a composer studied under him will partly determine how that younger composer will create music. I think this is because Stockhausen would present his own works and musical theories in the classroom (apparently to the point of being accused of self-aggrandizement), and obviously Stockhausen's music was constantly evolving, so whatever ideas he was working on at a particular moment in time would be what the students would take from him. I couldn't give you any more specifics than this, but I have a hunch this is what happened. One of Enno Poppe's teachers is the composer Friedrich Goldmann. Goldmann studied with Stockhausen in 1959 (according to wikipedia), the year Stockhausen composed Zyklus, Carré and Refrain. I wonder if the ideas behind those three pieces made their way into Poppe's music via Goldmann's teachings, whatever those ideas may be?


If you google Enno Poppe and Stockhausen you'll see some interesting things come up. Licht is where I'm at -- it's a curate's egg -- some of it doesn't work so well as audio at home, I guess like all opera, but some of it is just amazing music!


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## gregorx (Jan 25, 2020)

Anna Thorvaldsdottir,: _*Metacosmos *_(2017) [15']





George Benjamin: *Dance Figures, nine choreographic scenes for orchestra* (2004) [15']





Kaija Saariaho: _*Leino Songs *_(2007) [14']





Encore
Benjamin: _*Olicantus*_ [4']




Thorvaldsdottir: _*Aura*_ [6']





_______________________________________________________________

Thorvaldsdottir is Composer in Residence at the Iceland Symphony Orchestra. She's cranked out a fair amount of work in the last twenty years in all genres including choral works and a Chamber Opera. _Metacosmos_ is an orchestral work commissioned by the New York Philharmonic society and premiered by the NY Phil in 2018. I also included _*Aura*_ in the program, a percussion piece that I found on a CD this year. Further recommended listening is _Aeriality_ for orchestra (2011) and _Illumine_ (2016) for ensemble.

Benjamin is an English composer, conductor and teacher. His first work while he was still in school was premiered at The Proms in the early eighties, making him the youngest composer to ever have a work played at The Proms. He is completely new to me, having found him while looking for works for this thread. He passed the audition so I included him. His oeuvre is a little thin but I found some very good stuff by him including _Duet for piano and orchestra_ (2008) and _Into the Little Hill _(2006) a Chamber Opera for soprano and contralto. I also included his short piece *Olicantus* (2002) a piece written for a chamber ensemble of 15.

Saariaho is one of my favorite composers; I could have picked almost any of her 21st C. works. I do love high voice so I picked _Leino Songs_, a song cycle named after the librettist, Eino Leino. Other 21st. C. works worth a listen are orchestral works _Orion_ and _Circle Map_.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

calvinpv said:


> This:
> https://issuu.com/londonsinfonietta/docs/poppe_pg_6-9
> 
> Speicher is a great piece. There's only one recording of it (on the 2013 Donaueschinger box set), but the fifth movement of that recording is significantly cut short for some reason. I don't know how they messed that up. So to hear the whole thing, I'd check out this playlist:
> ...


Do you think that Poppe's way of composing Streicher has something in common with Stockhausen's way of composing Mantra? I mean highly structured, systematic, all things in a sense coming from a simple idea, all aspects of the composition -- timbre, tone, duration etc -- systematised. There are three lectures on Mantra by Stockhausen on youtube -- really impressive!


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## calvinpv (Apr 20, 2015)

Mandryka said:


> Do you think that Poppe's way of composing Streicher has something in common with Stockhausen's way of composing Mantra? I mean highly structured, systematic, all things in a sense coming from a simple idea, all aspects of the composition -- timbre, tone, duration etc -- systematised. There are three lectures on Mantra by Stockhausen on youtube -- really impressive!


I haven't seen those lectures, I've only read this summary about Mantra:
http://stockhausenspace.blogspot.com/2014/06/opus-32-mantra.html

I still have to read those journal articles on Speicher that I linked to above, so I don't know the connection between Mantra and Speicher. But reading that Mantra summary, I immediately thought of Philippe Manoury's Partita I, for viola and live electronics.
http://www.philippemanoury.com/?p=5025 (the structure of Partita I is briefly discussed a few paragraphs in)
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_kqEFdb_bGMbtzwA_4J9cdnDYFyNWuYEow
Manoury does something similar, albeit not as complicated. He opens the piece with the viola playing 8 unique textures in a row (which, combined, can be thought of as a melodic "formula" in Stockhausen's locution). The following 8 sections after the opening emphasize and develop one of the textures while the others are presented in less developed form (the order in which the textures are developed follows the original sequence).

And speaking of my post about Stockhausen above, I believe Mantra was *the* work that convinced Manoury to become a contemporary composer when he first heard it in the early seventies. Yet another example of Stockhausen's ubiquitous presence.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Manoury's _Le temps mode d'emploi_ seems obviously inspired by _Mantra_ - just speaking informally of course!


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

gregorx said:


> Anna Thorvaldsdottir,: _*Metacosmos *_(2017) [15']
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I loved the orchestral music in the Saariaho but not the voice of the singer. I'm sure it's just me, I'm right off that way of projecting. I'll give it another go when I've got more of an open mind.


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## allaroundmusicenthusiast (Jun 3, 2020)

Mandryka said:


> I loved the orchestral music in the Saariaho but not the voice of the singer. I'm sure it's just me, I'm right off that way of projecting. I'll give it another go when I've got more of an open mind.


I just heard the saariaho for the first time a couple of months ago and I totally agree with you, the singing does not really go well with the music, or it is not as good as the music, which I think is quite magical like most of saariaho's work.
The Thorvaldsdottir pieces did nothing for me, I'm afraid, quite boring music for my taste, nothing interesting apart from a few clashes of light and darkness in Aeriality (which I know is not part of this week's selection, but appaerently it's the composer's most famous work). 
On the other hand I really really liked the Benjaming piece. I also listened to Into the Little Hill which absolutely delighted me and amazed me. I have been putting off listening to Written on Skin for a while now, but after these encounters I'm ready to tackle it.


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## 20centrfuge (Apr 13, 2007)

I can't explain why Saariaho doesn't work for me since so many people love her work. It's just ok for me.

Benjamin is a fine composer. I generally feel like he hits the bulls eye and has a good balance of heart and brain. Though I will admit that sometimes his music feels a little over-worked. It can feel a little fussy. If I could I'd move the needle a little towards sounding "effortless" I would. A dash of Mozart as inspiration perhaps?

The Thorvaldsdottir work keeps you in suspense for about 3/4 of it until it hits the core music - the heart of the work. So there's a lot of a buildup. Unfortunately the climactic moment presents a fairly mundane melodic idea that, for me, fails to really deliver. On the other hand, I thought the orchestration worked well and the music kept me mentally involved, so that was a positive.

Still need to listen to the encores.


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## 20centrfuge (Apr 13, 2007)

*December 27-January 9: Group Selection

Neuwirth, Olga: Lost Highway (Opera)*

Please post anything to promote listening or discussion.


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## 20centrfuge (Apr 13, 2007)

from Wikipedia about the film: Lost Highway

"Lost Highway is a 1997 neo-noir film directed by David Lynch and co-written by Lynch and Barry Gifford. It stars Bill Pullman, Patricia Arquette, Balthazar Getty, and Robert Blake. The film follows a musician (Pullman) who begins receiving mysterious VHS tapes of him and his wife (Arquette) in their home, and who is suddenly convicted of murder, after which he inexplicably disappears and is replaced by a young mechanic (Getty) leading a different life.

Lost Highway was financed by the French production company Ciby 2000 and was largely shot in Los Angeles, where Lynch collaborated with frequent producer Mary Sweeney and cinematographer Peter Deming. Lynch has described the film as a "psychogenic fugue" rather than a conventionally logical story, while the film's surreal narrative structure has been likened to a Möbius strip. The film's soundtrack, which was produced by Trent Reznor, features an original score by Angelo Badalamenti and Barry Adamson, as well as contributions from artists including David Bowie, Marilyn Manson, Rammstein, Nine Inch Nails and The Smashing Pumpkins.

Upon release, Lost Highway received mixed reviews and grossed $3.7 million in North America after a modest three-week run. Most critics initially dismissed the film as incoherent, but it has since attracted a cult following and critical praise, as well as scholarly interest. Lost Highway is the first of three Lynch films set in Los Angeles, followed by Mulholland Drive in 2001 and Inland Empire in 2006. *In 2003, the film was adapted as an opera by the Austrian composer Olga Neuwirth."*


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## GucciManeIsTheNewWebern (Jul 29, 2020)

I've heard about that adaptation of Lost Highway before and the whole concept struck me as a bit odd. A David Lynch movie doesn't really seem like something that translates well to the stage, let alone an opera. Even though operas are 99% about the music to me and the plot is a sideshow for my tastes, I'm not sure how well you could pull off Lynch's unsettling surrealism in the context of an opera.


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## calvinpv (Apr 20, 2015)

*Lost Highway Playlist*

Unfortunately, there's no way to see the opera, only to hear it. But I would *highly* recommend you see the film if you haven't already. Just for the fact that it's a David Lynch film, and everyone's got to see at least one in their life (for their creative narrative structures, great sound design, and unsettling atmospheres). But I would also think it makes a good substitute for a staged operatic setting. EDIT: I see that you can rent the movie on youtube for a couple bucks.

Every scene of the opera is on youtube. However, there's no ready-made playlist available, so I just made one below. Sorry for the inconvenience.

1. Introduction
2. No Exit
3. You Don't Mind
4. Two Detectives are Coming Out
5. Interlude 1
6. We Have Met Before, Haven't We?
7. Andy, Who is that Guy?
8. Stay Here
9. Stay Put Killer
10. Who are you?
11. Your Son Has Experienced Some Sort of Trauma
12. Wonderful to See You, Pete
13. Come On, Let's Go
14. Hey! Didn't You See the Signs
15. There's no Smoking Here
16. You Recognize that Guy
17. I'm Leavin' the Car
18. Interlude 2
19. Hi, I'm Alice
20. I Want More
21. How You Doing, Pete?
22. Meet Me at the Starlight Motel
23. Have You Partied with Him
24. Alice is Waiting Nervously
25. Why Didn't You Just Leave?
26. There's a Man on the Phone
27. You Got Him
28. Did You Want to Talk to Me
29. We'll Have to Wait
30. You'll Never Have Me
31. Hello, Here I Am
32. Look at This
33. Renee
34. Dick Laurent is Dead

It might also be worth checking out the soundtrack to the film, since Lynch is always heavily involved in the sound design of his movies (and imo, he's very very good at it, especially in this film).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oHxkDIvbyGg&list=PLE4FQLcmWEPYHWr2gA1kJE5EvAEX7GQP9&index=1&ab_channel=Audiodrome

Here's a set of liner notes with libretto. Includes five short essays by Neuwirth herself, David Lynch, the philosopher Slavoj Zizek, Robert Höldrich from the IEM electronic music institute (where Neuwirth made the electronics component), and Stefan Drees (a musicologist?).
https://www.kairos-music.com/sites/default/files/downloads/0012542KAI.pdf

The last time I heard this was a few years ago before I saw the film, so it will be interesting for me to see where the differences lie in the music and how they contribute to the story.


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## GucciManeIsTheNewWebern (Jul 29, 2020)

^^^^ Thanks for putting this together! That probably took a good bit of time on your part. :tiphat:


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## calvinpv (Apr 20, 2015)

Right now, I'm going through the opera. Tonight, I got to the part where Pete first sees Alice as Mr. Eddy drops off his car at the shop (I'll listen to the second half tomorrow). My impressions so far is that the Pete part of the story is more amenable to a hearing on CD than the Fred part. And I think that's because the Pete part -- despite it being Fred's fantasy space and loaded with symbolism -- is, nevertheless, a more narrative driven segment of the story, filled with eccentric personalities, vibrant dialogue, and musical leitmotifs in the soundtrack. Even though I can't see what's happening, I can at least imagine it in my head since the music and dialogue alone gives me enough clues.

Not so with the Fred part of the story. In the film, there are very few set pieces and the dialogue is minimal and devoid of any inflection or emotion (which makes sense, because this part of the movie is reality without any of the fantasy that would make it lively), so you have to rely on subtle body language, camera angles, lighting, prop placements, background ambient noise, and key words in the dialogue to make sense of it. Body language, camera angles, lighting and props are all visual elements, so if I can't have access to those, then I'm at a loss for what Neuwirth is trying to do here. And according to the liner notes, Neuwirth is artfully projecting images onto a screen and interweaving them with the music, as sort of a visualization of the psychological state of the speaker, or as a difference in perspective from that of the speaker (think the Mystery Man and his camcorder), or as an extension of the physical space on the stage. Though I'm sure they enhance the Pete story and would be nice to see, I have a hunch they're absolutely crucial in the Fred parts. I still enjoy the music in these sections, but I just feel like I'm missing something.

Also, I'm sorry, but Neuwirth messed up that chilling scene at the party when Fred meets the Mystery Man. First, Neuwirth leaves out the bold part of this crucial line: "You invited me. *It's not my custom to go where I'm not wanted.*" (of course, she may have done something with the video projections to make up for it). And the mood of the scene is a bit too comical and upbeat.


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## calvinpv (Apr 20, 2015)

On the other hand, she absolutely nails Mr. Eddy's character. Probably better than Lynch, to be honest, though I think Lynch gives him the funnier lines. For practical reasons, Neuwirth replaces Mr. Eddy's temper tantrum over a speeding car with a temper tantrum over smoking, so the dialogue is different here. But Neuwirth perfectly captures that carnivalesque demeanor masking an underlying vigilante attitude towards upholding the Law. You can also hear fragments of Mr. Eddy's speech repeated by the live electronics, and the woodwinds/brass do a great job at doubling up on his way of speaking (I'm not sure what it signifies, but it's a nice effect).


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Very good scene here, just from the point of view of music. Fred is getting transformed into Pete.






This must be effective in the opera house just as a coup de theatre, with the music coming from all round the room.

But it's hard without the visuals. Can you imagine hearing Twin Peaks without seeing it? It would not be so good. Same here I think.


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## calvinpv (Apr 20, 2015)

Mandryka said:


> Very good scene here, just from the point of view of music. Fred is getting transformed into Pete.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I like the short punches in the brass starting around 3:30. For some reason, they remind me of the opening of Boulez's Répons.

I think what's nice about this transformation is that you can do pretty much anything with it visually. Lynch himself makes connections to the sex scene from the beginning with that soundtrack he uses (don't know how to describe it) and he shows the Mystery Man standing in the doorframe of the hut in the desert, as if signaling to Fred it's okay to enter the mysterious hut of libidinal desires and indulge a little in your fantasies. But then Lynch hides this interpretation with 1. a supernatural blue light (the blue light also appears in Mulholland Drive and obviously Twin Peaks is full of the "supernatural") and 2. Fred writhing in pain and blood on the ground from some supernatural force -- which I found kinda weird but also kinda funny at the same time. Lynch loves to throw humor into even the most tense moments.

Judging from the music alone, it sounds like Neuwirth is taking a slower and slightly more serious/formal approach -- the voice transformation in the video you posted lasts a full two minutes. I have no idea what she's doing visually, but I wonder if she plays with the lighting here like in the movie.


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## calvinpv (Apr 20, 2015)

calvinpv said:


> I like the short punches in the brass starting around 3:30. For some reason, they remind me of the opening of Boulez's Répons.
> 
> I think what's nice about this transformation is that you can do pretty much anything with it visually. Lynch himself makes connections to the sex scene from the beginning with that soundtrack he uses (don't know how to describe it) and he shows the Mystery Man standing in the doorframe of the hut in the desert, as if signaling to Fred it's okay to enter the mysterious hut of libidinal desires and indulge a little in your fantasies. But then Lynch hides this interpretation with 1. a supernatural blue light (the blue light also appears in Mulholland Drive and obviously Twin Peaks is full of the "supernatural") and 2. Fred writhing in pain and blood on the ground from some supernatural force -- which I found kinda weird but also kinda funny at the same time. Lynch loves to throw humor into even the most tense moments.
> 
> Judging from the music alone, it sounds like Neuwirth is taking a slower and slightly more serious/formal approach -- the voice transformation in the video you posted lasts a full two minutes. I have no idea what she's doing visually, but I wonder if she plays with the lighting here like in the movie.


And following up on this: I just got to the end of the opera, where supposedly Fred is transforming yet again into someone else as he escapes the police. It's interesting that in both transformations Neuwirth uses an identical filtering effect on Fred's voice to turn it into something more monstrous, and yet, the background music is substantially different.

In the film, the only thing that is the same between the two transformations is the physical alteration. In fact, if I remember correctly, the second transformation consists of only the physical change (with the camera bouncing around for effect) while the first transformation also includes phantasmagorical and supernatural elements as well. Though I guess you have to leave open the possibility that Lynch decided not to include those extra elements in the second instance because the movie was coming to an end and there was no need to explore further.

So I wonder if Neuwirth using the same voice filtering is indicative of that physical change. And that Neuwirth is deploying video projections for the psychological and supernatural elements.


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## calvinpv (Apr 20, 2015)

I also found the below scene interesting, when Alice explains to Pete her prior relations with Andy and Mr. Eddy in the porn business. Here, there's a narrator explaining what happens while in the film you get a playback of Alice's memories. Not only am I interested in why Neuwirth chose this route of explanation, but also I want to know who's doing the narrating. Unless it's prerecorded, I doubt Neuwirth wrote a separate role for a narrator who gets only two minutes of spotlight, so one of the other actors may be doing it, which is in itself pretty significant depending on the actor (the liner notes don't have a list of who's playing who). Fred or the Mystery Man would make the most sense.


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## gregorx (Jan 25, 2020)

I love the music in this opera, it completely captures the psychology of the film. The quick refence to the Badalamenti score with that low pitched chord in the opening, and the trumpet solo that goes off into Red Bats With Teeth territory are very cool. Start to finish, all the way through, I thought the music was good to spectacular. (I also listened to Neuwirth's Suite from _Lost Highway_ a couple of times.)

The choice of spoken dialogue is interesting, but I didn't like it. There is little point in attempting to actually tell a story here. Constance Hauman is a great soprano. Renee/Alice is a great part. When she (finally!) sang "you'll never have me", it was as chilling as the scene in the movie. So let her sing. The overly theatrical acting seems mandatory for a production based on a film noir, but it was more pastiche than noir. The detective with the vaguely English accent didn't help either. Mr. Eddy's two minute Sprechstimme death rattle aside, I wish there was more singing.

There are enough original screenplays from 20th C. films to keep opera in stories for the foreseeable future, and Lost Highway is an inspired choice. This appeals to me because I've got the movie, as well as the soundtrack, am a big fan, and am very familiar. I understand the concept here, I just wish Neuwirth had done it a little more straight up.


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## Simon Moon (Oct 10, 2013)

Neuwirth, Olga: Lost Highway (opera) (calvinpv)

I am not really an opera fan, but this one might change my mind. I am quite enjoying it. One of my local 'brick and mortar' record stores even has a used copy for cheap. I will probably pick it up on my next visit.

Rihm, Wolfgang: Requiem-Strophen (Knorf)

Along with opera, I have never been a big choral music fan, either. This one had some moments, but not quite enough to keep my interest.

Saunders, Rebecca: Yes (20centrfuge)

I quite liked this. But at over an hour, seems like a bit of a 'mission'.

I am a fan of some of her other pieces, "Fury" for example. 

Soper, Kate: "philosophy-opera" IPSA DIXIT (2010-16) (Trout)

Again, not an opera fan. But this one is also I find very good. It really doesn't come off like an opera, though. I might have to get a copy of this.


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## calvinpv (Apr 20, 2015)

Simon Moon said:


> Neuwirth, Olga: Lost Highway (opera) (calvinpv)
> 
> I am not really an opera fan, but this one might change my mind. I am quite enjoying it. One of my local 'brick and mortar' record stores even has a used copy for cheap. I will probably pick it up on my next visit.
> 
> ...


Not that it's a bad thing that you heard all four works. But we only had to listen to Lost Highway for the weeks of 12/27-1/9.


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## Portamento (Dec 8, 2016)

Would I be able to nominate a program or is it too late for that?


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## 20centrfuge (Apr 13, 2007)

We’ll make a spot for you Portamento


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## 20centrfuge (Apr 13, 2007)

SCHEDULE UPDATE. Please let me know if there are changes needed. We are also willing to add more weeks on the end if there are newcomers that want to participate.

For those of you that have signed up, please submit your program at least a few weeks in advance. Thanks!

January 10: (EmperorOfIceCream)
Instances - Elliott Carter (2012) [7]
Epigram - Franck Bedrossian (2010-2018) [35]
Correspondances - Henri Dutilleux (2003) [18]

January 17: (Simon Moon)
Thomas, Augusta Read: "Prisms of Light" (2014) (22:28)
Tüür, Erkki-Sven: Violin Concerto No. 2, "Angel's Share" (2017/2018) (24:00)

January 24: (Trout)
Fujikura, Dai: Bassoon Concerto (2012) [25]
Widmann, Jörg: Viola Concerto (2015) [28]

January 31: (Mandryka)
TBD

February 7: (Kjetil Heggelund)
Lindberg, Magnus: Mano a Mano (solo guitar) (2004) [15]
Francesconi, Luca: Duende (violin concerto) (2014) [31]

February 14: (Lilijana)
TBD

February 21: (Portamento)
TBD

February 28: GROUP SELECTION
Soper, Kate: "philosophy-opera" IPSA DIXIT (2010-16)


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## 20centrfuge (Apr 13, 2007)

I’m on my second time through this surreal opera. I found this about the opera on a guardian article:

“ The score involves live digital transformations for the ensemble and voices; the resulting sounds are projected around the auditorium. It includes quotations - from Kurt Weill and a Monteverdi madrigal - but otherwise the fine detail gets homogenised by the electronics, an aural emulsion that is generally just a neutral background to the speech and song.”

I like this idea of electronic sounds being projected around the auditorium. I bet it would be interesting to experience first hand.

A few other things strike me as I listen:
1) the relative lack of singing. Lots of speech and speech-song
2) the instrumentation is appropriate for the time and setting - heavy on winds including saxophone and also the use of electric guitar.
3) the ending is scary as hell


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## 20centrfuge (Apr 13, 2007)

Emperor of Ice Cream up next:

January 10:
Instances - Elliott Carter (2012) [7]
Epigram - Franck Bedrossian (2010-2018) [35]
Correspondances - Henri Dutilleux (2003) [18]


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Here's my line-up for the end of the month

Evan Johnson _Vo Mesurando_ 
Peter Ablinger _Piano and Record_
Stefan Prin _Generation Kill_

I think they're all on the web -- I'll find links later.


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## allaroundmusicenthusiast (Jun 3, 2020)

20centrfuge said:


> Emperor of Ice Cream up next:
> 
> January 10:
> Instances - Elliott Carter (2012) [7]
> ...


I've arrived before Emperor of Ice Cream apparently, but I'll post my thoughts anyway. Before I begin, of these pieces I have only listened to Correspondances before and I remember that I really enjoyed Hannigan's performance (I think she's an absolute genius), but I thought the music wasn't up to par.

I liked the beginning of the Carter piece, a nice show of colors that struck me as quite 2nd viennesse school. The winds are really the heart of this piece, and what keeps it interesting for me. 
It's an apt title "Instances" as this work seems like a juxtaposition of moments, colors, textures, timbres, that each get their time to shine in between some furious appearances by the whole orchestra. The intimate, almost chamber like moments (the Instances) are really good, I don't like the tutti very much, but a really interesting piece and my first foray (I think) into the music of Carter in the 2000's.

Epigram is the first piece I ever listened to by Bedrossian, I also have no idea who he is, but I can say that I liked the epicness of this work, it's bold, it's ambitious, and it's completely insane and it is not afraid of being all of those things. Is it good? I don't know, nor do I care, I enjoyed it for the most part, especially the first movement. 
Something interesting I found was that the singing sometimes was rather _unclassical_, if that makes any sense, even beyond the spoken parts, and that makes the piece sometimes sound like something a very experimental and out ther songwriter could have written, like Scott Walker to the extreme.

I'll return later to talk about my impressions of my 2nd listen of Correspondances


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

_Instances_, short pieces strung together. Nothing is developed. Like all those fragmentary compositions of the 20th century, Webern, Nono, Kurtag. I kind of felt that this music wasn't saying anything which hadn't been said in the last century. Yeah, there's no narrative thread, nothing makes progress, but it still coheres, been there, done that 1000 times before. Not unattractive though.


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## allaroundmusicenthusiast (Jun 3, 2020)

Mandryka, I think we drew similar conclusions from Instances. I think i liked it a bit more than you did, but it interests me what you say about "been there, done that 1000 times before". I agree, it's a well trodden path, but so is 99.99999999% of all music, especially tonal music and yet people cling to that, people still enjoy tonal music more than they will ever enjoy atonal, bi tonal or pantonal music or any kind of "experimental" music. I think it's good that composers strive to settle or establish a sound, wether it be a highly personal sound (like in the case of someone like Messiaen) or the sound of a school or wave, because this kind of music hasn't been around for long and in its short history it has managed to alienate people or turn them away, and despite that music is continously moving forward in directions which are increasingly off-putting, and at the same time it has splintered splinters into too many directions to be able to keep up with it. I don't think this is bad, this is very good for us that like change, new avenues, new sound worlds, new creations in general. I guess what i'm trying to say is that we shouldn't chastise Carter for going down his well trodden path and that of the composers that inspired him, because it's necessary to continue to write in that style, because society hasn't learned nor acquired everything this type of music has to offer.

Edit: I listened to Correspondances, enjoyed it a lot more than I did the first time, I liked it quite a lot, beautiful piece and my favorite of this bunch for sure.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

allaroundmusicenthusiast said:


> Mandryka, I think we drew similar conclusions from Instances. I think i liked it a bit more than you did, but it interests me what you say about "been there, done that 1000 times before". I agree, it's a well trodden path, but so is 99.99999999% of all music, especially tonal music and yet people cling to that, people still enjoy tonal music more than they will ever enjoy atonal, bi tonal or pantonal music or any kind of "experimental" music. I think it's good that composers strive to settle or establish a sound, wether it be a highly personal sound (like in the case of someone like Messiaen) or the sound of a school or wave, because this kind of music hasn't been around for long and in its short history it has managed to alienate people or turn them away, and despite that music is continously moving forward in directions which are increasingly off-putting, and at the same time it has splintered splinters into too many directions to be able to keep up with it. I don't think this is bad, this is very good for us that like change, new avenues, new sound worlds, new creations in general. I guess what i'm trying to say is that we shouldn't chastise Carter for going down his well trodden path and that of the composers that inspired him, because it's necessary to continue to write in that style, because society hasn't learned nor acquired everything this type of music has to offer.


Yes I know what you mean, it's just that personally I seem to have an insatiable appetite for the iconoclastic, the experimental, the fresh. Something like this Carter piece is just a well made exercise in style, a pleasant piece of sonic decoration.


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## allaroundmusicenthusiast (Jun 3, 2020)

Yes, I understand you perfectly, I have that same appetite. But I understand that the rest of the world does not, and I think it's better to listen to this type of exercises rather than another tonal work with nothing interesting going on, or a minimal(ist) dark brooding droney piece as there are so many in the contemporary musical landscape.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

The Bedrossian epigrams cycle is an example of excessive music, in this case it's an excess of colour, each sound is saturated with intense timbre. The result is outrageously expressive, like Strauss's Elektra and parts of Die Frau Ohne Schatten - anyone who likes the latter should like the first two of Bedrossian's epigrams. They are Straussian expressionism with electronics and extended instrumental techniques. In fact some of those effects even reminded me of what you hear in Strauss. Listening to them I was reminded of this famous cartoon









And then there's the third epigram.

This is a rather interesting piece of music IMO, Bedrossian finds his own voice there. I shall be returning to it tomorrow, it's special. In the meantime I need to think about it, digest it.


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## gregorx (Jan 25, 2020)

I've always thought Carter's string quartets first rate, but never really listened to much of his other stuff. As great as his sq's are, and as much chamber works as he did, it's surprising that he only did one work for string orchestra and one, our work here, for chamber orchestra. _Instances_ is nice enough and I do like it, but it seems a little tepid for what Carter did with his sq's. Not exactly breaking any new ground here.

The same can be said of _Correspondances_. Dutilleux is a favorite and his oeuvre is a little on the thin side, so this work is appreciated. Sad songs for soprano and orchestra is an unbeatable combination and this one doesn't disappoint. I like the orchestration; light on brass, heavy on winds, percussion and strings.

The Bedrossian piece is a little extreme, and not just compared to the two above works. Starting out with unexpected strange sounds at high volume, Epigram I didn't get off to a good start for me, but it settled down a bit. Epigram II sounded much better and III might be the best although I'll have to listen to it a few more times. There is some very interesting stuff going on in these three piece, but I'm not sure if it succeeds musically as any thing more than a performance piece, best appreciated live. The same with Lost Highway.

Of the extremely avant-garde composers we've listened to, Bedrossian I might like. I don't really have any desire to explore Poppe or Ole-Henrik Moe any further, but I did queue up some Bedrossian the other night. Just some casual listening, wasn't studying it or anything, but I might find some stuff of his I like. Reminds of Scelsi in places.


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## 20centrfuge (Apr 13, 2007)

Sorry, a little late, though anyone can keep the ball rolling!


January 17: (Simon Moon)
Thomas, Augusta Read: "Prisms of Light" (2014) (22:28)
Tüür, Erkki-Sven: Violin Concerto No. 2, "Angel's Share" (2017/2018) (24:00)


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## Doctor Fuse (Feb 3, 2021)

I have to perform a work by Thomas Ades soon. Really enjoyed his piece, Toys.


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## Kjetil Heggelund (Jan 4, 2016)

Has the thread been totally forgotten? I'm sorry I haven't kept up, but today is time for my suggested listening! Put on Francesconi and suddenly remembered this thread...Here are some notes I found online. (My own feelings on the piece is that it is evocative and engaging and has great forward momentum at times. Music that makes me think!)

The title refers to the demonic side of flamenco music, the dark spirit that can overtake rational control. When asked about the inexplicable in a pre-concert talk, Francesconi and Josefowicz shared a kind of nervous laugh. Mälkki looked away, as though glad she wasn't asked as well. Some things are best performed and not talked about.

"Duende" begins in the spirit world. Squealing in the upper harmonic reaches of the violin are echoed by barely audible squeaks in the orchestral violins, along with taps at the top registers of a distant piano and xylophone. Something spooky is scratching on the bedroom window in the middle of a dark, sleepless night.

Weird sounds throughout the orchestra sneak through the cracks, not into the room but your consciousness. Nothing is real and rarely will it be. For a half-hour and through five movements, Josefowicz plays possessed. She inhabits an entire stratosphere of hyperventilated harmonics. Her fingers scurry up and down the strings as though massless particles shot through the CERN accelerator.

The world does ultimately invade these distorted dark notes, once the orchestra takes on more body. An accordion occasionally injects what appears to be the memory of once-upon-a-time gypsies. A solo cadenza near the end of the concerto is too astonishing for words. It is no surprise to witness remarkable feats from Josefowicz. But this, which is maybe best described as a vision of a 22nd century Paganini, is news.

Mälkki, whose estimable job was to keep the balmy "Duende" spirits at bay, started the concert with the madness of the 19th century Paganini-inspired "Queen Mab" Scherzo from Berlioz's "Roméo et Juliette." She did not enforce expectable tidiness, but rather eeriness, brilliantly setting the scene for the fantastique of Francesconi as well as the psychedelic craziness of Berlioz's symphony, well aware that best and most surprising news needs, indeed, a kind of mystery.

[email protected]

by the way: Luca Francesoni is a super cool guy who sent me his guitar piece "Alborada" when I e-mailed him asking how & where I could purchase it.


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## Kjetil Heggelund (Jan 4, 2016)

Here is the one I listened to now.


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## Kjetil Heggelund (Jan 4, 2016)

...and here is the coming "contemporary classic" guitar solo with one of the most fantastic performers around


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## 20centrfuge (Apr 13, 2007)

My thanks to everyone who participated on this thread, and also my apologies for dropping the ball the last several weeks of the thread.

I hope there can continue to be discussion and sharing of new music on other threads.

Peace!


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## Simon Moon (Oct 10, 2013)

Yeah, I feel bad for letting it slip, also.

Real life got in the way for the last couple of months.

Should we reschedule dates that have passed? Or just continue with new works and dates?


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## calvinpv (Apr 20, 2015)

Unlike Simon Moon, I don't have an excuse, as I've been posting in other threads the past few weeks. So I'm going to pick up where I fell off the wagon, which is gregorx's concert (I did listen to the concert but didn't have time to write anything down, so I'm going to revisit it).

I don't know if others want to continue, but I'll post my thoughts here regardless. Also, I think I'll jump around to what I'm most interested in first, like the Bedrossian song cycle, which I've been meaning to hear.

I do think one reason I stopped participating is that I'm increasingly having difficulty jumping from composer to composer or from style to style when I listen to music; nowadays, I'm finding more enjoyment zooming in on a single style or composer for lengthy periods of time. It's probably why I did an all-Poppe concert for this thread. But that's a limitation of mine, and I don't want to impose that restriction on future listening threads; I'll just have to get used to this more scattered approach (and I used to listen this way, I don't know what changed in me).


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## Simon Moon (Oct 10, 2013)

I added links to the vids for my entries.

January 17: (Simon Moon)

Thomas, Augusta Read: "Prisms of Light" (2014) (22:28)






Tüür, Erkki-Sven: Violin Concerto No. 2, "Angel's Share" (2017/2018) (24:00)


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