# Borrowings



## Handel (Apr 18, 2007)

Do you know any musical theme that one composer borrowed from another? It may have been rare during later periods but during baroque era, it was quite common...

Let's start with one:

Telemann's violin concerto from Tafelmusik (1739): 





Handel's Arrival of queen of Sheba from Solomon (1748):


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## Roni22 (Aug 22, 2007)

Regardless of the copyright acts that went into force at the beginning of the 18th century, *Beethoven* actively copied out material from *Mozart*'s scores, modified it in some ways in each case to various degrees, and presented it as his own music. From the countless examples, some are more controversial than others, and range from *themes* (melodies), which are unlikely to have been composed separately, to *whole sections of music* that are open for everyone to see in the drafts.

Some are documented, others aren't. Here are some of my observations:

'Moonlight' sonata:
the triplets and polyrhythm - from Don Giovanni (scene of Commendatore's death)
3rd mvt, 2nd subject - from Mozart's Sonata No. 1

The fifth symphony:
Main motif and some connecting phrases - from Piano Concerto No. 25
Third mvt - from Symphony No. 40

'Waldstein' sonata and Symphony No. 9
connecting themes taken from Rondo 'alla Turca'


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## Manuel (Feb 1, 2007)

Roni22 said:


> 'Waldstein' sonata and Symphony No. 9
> connecting themes taken from Rondo 'alla Turca'


Where?................


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## Roni22 (Aug 22, 2007)

I don't have the 9th score handy, but Waldstein is here.

*Thematic comparison*

Beethoven, Sonata No. 21, 1st mvt, bars 23-26.

Mozart, Sonata No. 11, 3rd mvt, the f-sharp minor theme.


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## toejamfootball (Jun 27, 2007)

Well, not exactly on topic but.. sometimes I play a melody that sub-consciously sounds like another melody I have heard. Not exactly the same but "Borrwed sub-consciously" I guess.. I am sure it has happened to others.


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## opus67 (Jan 30, 2007)

Roni22 said:


> 'Moonlight' sonata:
> the triplets and polyrhythm - from Don Giovanni (scene of Commendatore's death)
> 3rd mvt, 2nd subject - from Mozart's Sonata No. 1


While listening to the second movement of Mozart's PC No.21, recently, I thought I heard a bit of the 'Moonlight'.

(Putting it in the proper order, was the sonata No.14 by Beethoven based on elements from Mozart's concerto?)


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## Oneiros (Aug 28, 2006)

Ooh! Ooh! I know one!

Beethoven's _Diabelli_ Variations!

But I don't know who he borrowed them from.


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## Manuel (Feb 1, 2007)

phatic said:


> Ooh! Ooh! I know one!
> 
> Beethoven's _Diabelli_ Variations!
> 
> But I don't know who he borrowed them from.


Diabelli, of course.


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## Handel (Apr 18, 2007)

It exists a book about Bach's borrowings, both from other or from himself...

Carrell, Norman. Bach the Borrower. London: George Allen and Unwin Ltd., 1967.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

2:32 








14:07


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