# The Brahms 4, the Dvorak last 4 or the Schumann 4.......



## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

Who's 4 symphonies are your favorites?
And what are your favorite sets of the 4?
Have fun?


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

Let's spin the Artrockometer...

5/6 Brahms 1 
5/6 Brahms 2
6/6 Brahms 3
6/6 Brahms 4
22 points

4/6 Dvorak 6
5/6 Dvorak 7
5/6 Dvorak 8
6/6 Dvorak 9
20 points

4/6 Schumann 1
3/6 Schumann 2
5/6 Schumann 3
3/6 Schumann 4
15 points

I don't have multiple sets (not my thing in general).


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## MatthewWeflen (Jan 24, 2019)

Although I enjoy all three, Brahms is the clear favorite for me in terms of orchestration, depth of feeling, and complexity.

A boring answer reflecting conventional wisdom, perhaps. But it also means that there are many more top-shelf recordings to choose from.


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## Eclectic Al (Apr 23, 2020)

This is surely no contest. Brahms.


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## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

Clearly Dvorak. I think he was the best orchestrator of the 3, and had the nicest melodies.


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## Eclectic Al (Apr 23, 2020)

Phil loves classical said:


> Clearly Dvorak. I think he was the best orchestrator of the 3, and had the nicest melodies.


Well, at least we agree that it's clearly not Schumann.


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

Art Rock said:


> Let's spin the Artrockometer...
> 
> 4/6 Schumann 1
> 3/6 Schumann 2
> ...


Ahh but *which* Schumann 4th, 1841 or 1851?


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

The one that Karajan recorded in 1972.


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## haziz (Sep 15, 2017)

I like both Dvorak and Brahms, but would give the edge to Dvorak. Schumann is not even close.

In terms of sets, I like Kertesz, Rowicki, Kubelik, Pesek, Neumann, Ivan Fischer, Szell, and I am probably forgetting a couple of others, but have a soft spot for the Kertesz set.


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## haziz (Sep 15, 2017)

I also consider Dvorak's 5th symphony (modern numbering) to be a masterpiece, and at the same level as his "last four".


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

Brahms by a wide margin over Schumann and huge margin over Dvorak whose symphonies never registered with me.


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## Brahmsian Colors (Sep 16, 2016)

1) The Brahms Four. 

Favorite sets in no preferred order (don't feel like shaving hairs):

Walter/Columbia Symphony
Klemperer/Philharmonia 
Jochum/London Philharmonic
Jochum/Berlin Philharmonic (mono)
Van Beinum/Amsterdam (Royal) Concertgebouw (numbers 1 and 4 in stereo; numbers 2 and 3 in mono)


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

Tough question - i like/love them all....
Probably give the nod to Brahms but Dvorak is right in there with him..Schumann is very fine, also.


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## HenryPenfold (Apr 29, 2018)

Voted Schumann - head and shoulders over Dvorak and brahms


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

Voted Brahms, Dvorak 8 & 9 are the only two I've been able to enjoy. And I like Szell's Schumann No.2


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## RogerWaters (Feb 13, 2017)

Brahms by a long mile


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## Bruckner Anton (Mar 10, 2016)

They are not even close. Just take a look at BBC Music Magazine's poll of the greatest symphonies. They asked 151 conductors (including best-known ones such as Rattle, Ashkenazy, Mehta, Dutoit, Harding, Pappano, Zinman, Wit and Skrowaczewski) to list 3 greatest symphonies and here are the numbers of votes for the pieces you mentioned:

Brahms 4: 16 votes
Brahms 1: 14
Brahms 3: 12
Brahms 2: 8

Schumann 2: 5
Schumann 3: 1
Schumann 4: 0
Schumann 1: 0

Dvorak 9: 4
Dvorak 7: 3
Dvorak 8: 0
Dvorak 6: 0


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

RogerWaters said:


> Brahms by a long mile


suffers under the Curse of Craftsmanship.


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## SONNET CLV (May 31, 2014)

Eclectic Al said:


> This is surely no contest. Brahms.


Eclectic Al speaks for me on this issue.

Thanks, --Al. Saves me some typing.


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## Eclectic Al (Apr 23, 2020)

If the competition was broader I am afraid I would have Schubert well ahead of Dvorak and Schumann. The Unfinished and Great symphonies would do the job on their own, and 5 is almost up there. I also like most of the others quite a lot.

Then there's Mendelssohn: 1, 3, 4 and 5 would put him ahead of Dvorak and Schumann for me (ignoring the oddity of number 2).

Then there's Tchaikovsky, if you extend the net a bit wider. 4, 5, 6 and Manfred would put him ahead of Dvorak and Schumann in my book (although I not been able to get much out of 1-3).

I suppose I'd have Brahms in a different league altogether, and then you've got another group (Schubert, Mendelssohn, Tchaikovsky) before you even get to Dvorak. Schumann is then lagging behind having been lapped a few times by the others.


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## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

I like all 12 pieces, but Brahms easily wins for me as well. They are both the most ambitious and the most successful in that ambition. Dvorak's are nice (and I agree that 5 and 6 are underrated, even 7 and 8 compared to #9) and tuneful but in no way on that level. 
Schumann is a different era, 30-40 years earlier and while I think his symphonies are often underrated, they are not as ambitious and sometimes flawed. The first is very good but rather modest, the 4th for me the most convincing while the 2nd has a great slow movement and scherzo but the overall dramaturgy and especially the finale I do not find at all successful. Similarly, I find the "Rhenish" a mixed bag with the interesting an original "Cologne Cathedral" movement, sweeping first movement and nice folksy scherzo but trite mvmts. 3 and 5 and not so convincing "program" (it's not even a program but whatever poetic guiding idea). It would be hard for me to rate them vs. Dvorak as they are so different.


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

I suppose the Brahms 4 are the greatest but I didn't want to vote as that would involve voting down the Schumann 4 ... which are different and special. I could live with voting down Dvorak in favour of Brahms even though I love the Dvorak last 4 too. As for favourite recordings 

- there are many for Brahms: Sanderling (either set); Abbado and Walter but there are many others I greatly enjoy, too.
- for Schumann: Holliger and Sawallisch but there are a good few others that I have some time for.
- Dvorak means Kertesz and probably Belohlavek but with special mention for Kubelik in 8 ... and again there are others that I enjoy a lot as well.


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## Olias (Nov 18, 2010)

Dvorak by a mile for me, but then I prefer his melodic writing as opposed to the more motivic writing of Brahms. I don't maintain that Dvorak's work are "better", just that I like them more.

Preferred recordings:

6

https://www.amazon.com/Symphonies-B...eywords=Dvorak+anguelov&qid=1625062790&sr=8-1

7

https://www.amazon.com/Dvorak-Symph...&keywords=Dvorak+Levine&qid=1625062748&sr=8-1

8 and 9

https://www.amazon.com/Dvořák-Symph...ywords=Dvorak+Mackerras&qid=1625062696&sr=8-1

Great Cycle:
https://www.amazon.com/Complete-Sym...keywords=Dvorak+suitner&qid=1625062893&sr=8-1

Very underrated cycle:
https://www.amazon.com/Dvořák-Symph...cedc9&pd_rd_wg=dVi7V&pd_rd_i=B000639Y94&psc=1


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## Eclectic Al (Apr 23, 2020)

Olias said:


> Dvorak by a mile for me


I guess the clue is in the avatar


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## Wilhelm Theophilus (Aug 8, 2020)

Brahms is winning by far, but would Dvorak's 9th be the best symphony out of the 12?


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## Eclectic Al (Apr 23, 2020)

Wilhelm Theophilus said:


> Brahms is winning by far, but would Dvorak's 9th be the best symphony out of the 12?


Nope. The best 2 are Brahms 3 and 4 - not sure in which order. Then you have Brahms 1 and 2. Then, as you note, you get Dvorak 9.


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## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

Dvorak's 9th is not even the best of Dvorak's symphonies...

But I am surprised that none of the conductors had a high opinion of Schumann 1 and 4 (I used to have the impression that they were by far the most respected) and Dvorak 8. This is the "lightest" of his last 3-4 but the most original and "Dvorakian" in some ways, I think, my favorite is the more Brahmsian 7th, though.


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## haziz (Sep 15, 2017)

Wilhelm Theophilus said:


> Brahms is winning by far, but would Dvorak's 9th be the best symphony out of the 12?


I voted for Dvorak in this poll, but for me the 9th symphony is not his greatest. I would actually put 5-8 ahead of it, yes including his fifth symphony. I love his ninth symphony, it is just that at least to me it is not his greatest.


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## AClockworkOrange (May 24, 2012)

I was split between the Schumann and Brahms and in the end went with Brahms by a whisker. The Brahms works are remarkably strong and consistent in quality, with the Second being my favourite at the moment. As Sawallisch did for Schumann, Klemperer’s Philharmonia recordings made a powerful impression on me in particular (amongst a number of others).

Robert Schumann was a close second, the margin being quite narrow. Aside from the works being incredibly enjoyable, Wolfgang Sawallisch’s Dresden Cycle has left an incredibly powerful impression and is one of my go-to examples of a benchmark recording. It comes in second of the choices here purely out of personal preference as opposed to any objective claims of quality. 

I enjoy Dvorak’s Symphonies but I find the 9th overdone and the Largo really grates on my nerves thanks to a certain old Bread (Warburtons or Hovis I believe) advertisement. Also, as much as I enjoy Dvorak’s work (and I really do, more so the tone poems, Rusalka, Chamber Works and some of the earlier Symphonies), in comparison to both Brahms and Schumann’s bodies of four Symphonies, I personally couldn’t place him higher for my tastes in the works suggested in the question.


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## fbjim (Mar 8, 2021)

I think the 9th is kind of like Carmen where it can be difficult to get past the familiarity of the work to actually see how amazing it is melodically. Such is the curse of great melodists. That said, his 8th is my favorite by a good margin- nobody else could have written that symphony.


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## Merl (Jul 28, 2016)

I love em all but it's Dvorak for me, a truly underrated composer.


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## Animal the Drummer (Nov 14, 2015)

Leaving aside more technical criteria since the question specifies "favourite", it's Dvorak for me too.


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## Eclectic Al (Apr 23, 2020)

fbjim said:


> I think the 9th is kind of like Carmen where it can be difficult to get past the familiarity of the work to actually see how amazing it is melodically. Such is the curse of great melodists. That said, his 8th is my favorite by a good margin- nobody else could have written that symphony.


Yes. On the 9th, I try to pretend it's not so familiar, and then I think it is his best. The curse of over-familiarity is strong in this one.


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## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

I must be at least as overfamiliar with Mozart's g minor (both), Beethoven's 5th or Schubert's b minor symphonies and as I don't think my (still enthusiastic after >30 years) judgment is clouded by overfamiliarity in these cases, I don't think it must be clouded in cases like Dvorak's 9th or Tchaikovsky's 5th where I am not quite as enthusiastic as 30 years ago.


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## BrahmsWasAGreatMelodist (Jan 13, 2019)

Why is Dvorak 9 so highly regarded here? His 7th and 8th are both much better.


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## dko22 (Jun 22, 2021)

Find it a bit unfair to exclude Dvorak’s first five as there is almost as much fine music as the last four. With the whole cycle, Dvorak wins easily— with the last 4 he merely shades it over Brahms. I enjoy the Schumann but they’re not in the same class. I’ve seen the list of conductors’ choices which strikes me as saying what they were expected to say.


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## dko22 (Jun 22, 2021)

BrahmsWasAGreatMelodist said:


> Why is Dvorak 9 so highly regarded here? His 7th and 8th are both much better.


Yes and no. I've seen a reputable analysis of no. 9 saying not only that it's the weakest but also that last movement is the weakest of the four. I find it the strongest, having the sort of fresh wild intensity bordering almost on hysteria which is also seen in the first movement of 8 and is probably the composer's greatest strength. Of the slow movements, I do agree (for once) with convention which says that 7 is the greatest.


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

BrahmsWasAGreatMelodist said:


> Why is Dvorak 9 so highly regarded here? His 7th and 8th are both much better.


I like #6...wonderful piece.


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## Brahmsian Colors (Sep 16, 2016)

I like the attractive melodies of the Eighth over any of the other Dvorak Symphonies.


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

Brahmsian Colors said:


> I like the attractive melodies of the Eighth over any of the other Dvorak Symphonies.


Yes, Dvorak is definitely one of the greatest tunesmiths...he could spin a beautiful melody....the Slavonic Dances are a veritable cornucopia of great melodies....


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## ORigel (May 7, 2020)

1) Brahms
2) Dvorak
.
.
3) Schumann


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## Aries (Nov 29, 2012)

I don't understand the hype for Brahms.

It is Dvorak for me. I probably prefer the two opening movements of his 8th and 9th over the 8 complete symphonies of Brahms and Schumann.


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## ORigel (May 7, 2020)

BrahmsWasAGreatMelodist said:


> Why is Dvorak 9 so highly regarded here? His 7th and 8th are both much better.


Because it has the best melodies. But it's overplayed and overly popular.


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## tdc (Jan 17, 2011)

Brahms, and then Schumann. Dvorak's music to my ears is pretty and has nice surface effects, but lacks depth.


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## Wilhelm Theophilus (Aug 8, 2020)

Aries said:


> I don't understand the hype for Brahms.


.......Same here


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## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

^ I used to feel that way, still do somewhat. Brahms is not what I felt how music should sound when I was discovering Romantic music. I still can't take him seriously, but it can be stimulating. In something like from 3:10 - 3:25 here I feel he's creating his own drama by working himself up unnecessarily in order to rein himself in again.


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## Animal the Drummer (Nov 14, 2015)

I have to strongly disagree! This happens to be my favourite Brahms symphony and would have got my vote if it had been in the poll instead of no.4, which I admire but have never quite learned to love.


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

It might be helpful to read the first post....


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## Olias (Nov 18, 2010)

If anyone is interested, here are detailed video walkthroughs of both Dvorak's 8th and 9th (still working on the 7th). Whether someone likes the works or not is up to the listener's preference of course, but any debate regarding the quality of writing can be resolved by a detailed analysis of the music. None of the works listed in the OP are "weak". I think it's just fashionable sometimes for people trying to prove to others how savvy they are in their knowledge of repertoire to criticize works that have mass public appeal (aka the NWS). The NWS is fantastic, so is the 8th, 7th, 6th, 5th, and Brahms, and Schumann. This is the top 1% of the repertoire for a good reason.


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## Wilhelm Theophilus (Aug 8, 2020)

Phil loves classical said:


> ^ I used to feel that way, still do somewhat. Brahms is not what I felt how music should sound when I was discovering Romantic music. I still can't take him seriously, but it can be stimulating. In something like from 3:10 - 3:25 here I feel he's creating his own drama by working himself up unnecessarily in order to rein himself in again.


I like the 2nd PC but I don't think its one of the best PC's ever and I don't like the VC.


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## Aries (Nov 29, 2012)

Phil loves classical said:


> ^ I used to feel that way, still do somewhat. Brahms is not what I felt how music should sound when I was discovering Romantic music. I still can't take him seriously, but it can be stimulating. In something like from 3:10 - 3:25 here I feel he's creating his own drama by working himself up unnecessarily in order to rein himself in again.


Most drama in Brahms symphonies feels like pseudo drama. The occasional pseodo-dramatic staccatos are very weird. I can feel by the way he treats the material that something exciting will be very rare to happen. And excitement was probably not even desired by Brahms because he wrote that for the niminy-piminy vienna high society. I think there is a lack of expression, content and depth.


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## Animal the Drummer (Nov 14, 2015)

Art Rock said:


> It might be helpful to read the first post....


Oops. Yes indeed.


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## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

Phil loves classical said:


> ^ I used to feel that way, still do somewhat. Brahms is not what I felt how music should sound when I was discovering Romantic music.


How should (romantic) music sound like? 
I was not immediately enthused by the sound of Brahms when I heard his orchestral music for the first time (coming as a newbie teenager from Haydn, Mozart, Beethoven, Dvorak 9, Tchaikovsky). It sounded a bit like "trying hard and never really breaking free" got used to it pretty quickly, though, and there was also the fact that virtually none of the romantics sounded like I felt romantic music should sound like at 17. 
Bruckner was way too brassy, far more irritating than Brahms, Wagner was a "wall of sound". I found even Schubert's 9th too much brass (but this was mostly the fault of that late 60s Karajan recording that was my first). 
Closest was probably something like Mendelssohn's "Scottish", even better would have been something like the Freischütz Ouverture but there was no complete symphony like that (least of all Weber's far earlier symphonies but I got to know these much later). So overall Brahms was not too bad and I was quite bowled over by the first two (I think) chamber pieces of his I encountered, namely the B major trio and the piano quintet (and a bit later the clarinet pieces).



> I still can't take him seriously, but it can be stimulating.


What do you mean with "not take seriously"? I can (with difficulty) understand not being fond of Brahms' music, but don't most people think it is rather TOO serious?


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## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

Animal the Drummer said:


> I have to strongly disagree! This happens to be my favourite Brahms symphony and would have got my vote if it had been in the poll instead of no.4, which I admire but have never quite learned to love.


The 3rd's also my favourite Brahms symphony. I'm just nitpicking something that appears to me in a certain light. I don't listen to his music for dramatic content anymore, and I tend to enjoy his music more that way.


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## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

I love Brahms but that 3rd movement from the 3rd (that became famous via that movie "Aimez-vous Brahms?" is probably my least favorite symphonic movement of the composer


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

Aries said:


> Most drama in Brahms symphonies feels like pseudo drama.






You don't think he's "pouring his heart out" at this moment?



Aries said:


> The occasional pseodo-dramatic staccatos are very weird.


They're what I would call "Brahmsian elegance", his "sad smiles".


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## Botschaft (Aug 4, 2017)

Aries said:


> I don't understand the hype for Brahms.


It's called good taste.


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## Aries (Nov 29, 2012)

hammeredklavier said:


> You don't think he's "pouring his heart out" at this moment?


I think this is rather an exaggeration. It is still rather controlled instead of letting the music run and develop.

Often there is a nice idea, but Brahms immediately returns to something mediocre.
For example here: 



Or here: 




Brahmas seems to mediate always between his musical material, instead of giving themes room to spread, letting contrasts exist and making a story. Maybe Hanslick looked sharply at Brahms every 30 seconds and Brahms said "Ok, I keep contenance".

I think I like his Finales overall somewhat more. For example this is just good:


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## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

I took the canon at the end of the first mvmt. of Brahms's 4th as something like the iron inevitability of fate; it's a great and very effective passage. Hanslick was irritated by the difficulty and density of the 4th (albeit in the private piano pre-premiere), Brahms was at this time certainly long past pleasing critics if he ever cared much about them. His virtual critics were Bach, Mozart, Beethoven, Mendelssohn, Schumann etc., the cloud of witnesses of Serious German Music.


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## Radames (Feb 27, 2013)

Poor Schumann. I think he is very underrated. I like his 2nd and 3rd better than Brahms 2nd and 3rd.


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## Subutai (Feb 28, 2021)

To make this more interesting, surely you could have sneaked in Tchaikovsky's last 4 (4, Manfred, 5 & 6) and perhaps Schubert (5,6, 8 & 9)? If the criteria is solid 4 symphonies in a row?

As it stands, Brahms, Dvorak.


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## Eclectic Al (Apr 23, 2020)

Subutai said:


> To make this more interesting, surely you could have sneaked in Tchaikovsky's last 4 (4, Manfred, 5 & 6) and perhaps Schubert (5,6, 8 & 9)? If the criteria is solid 4 symphonies in a row?
> 
> As it stands, Brahms, Dvorak.


Absolutely agreed. I noted earlier that in that case I would be Brahms, Schubert, Tchaikovsky, Dvorak, Schumann.
Although if the differences were quantified it would be more like:

Brahms>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Schubert,Tchaikovsky>>>>>>>Dvorak>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Schumann


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## haziz (Sep 15, 2017)

Subutai said:


> To make this more interesting, surely you could have sneaked in Tchaikovsky's last 4 (4, Manfred, 5 & 6) and perhaps Schubert (5,6, 8 & 9)? If the criteria is solid 4 symphonies in a row?
> 
> As it stands, Brahms, Dvorak.


Funny that you shoe-horned Manfred in the midst, although that may have been the order of composition. Tchaikovsky, together with Beethoven, is my favorite composer, and I would rank him ahead of Dvorak and way ahead of Brahms. I love Tchaikovsky's numbered symphonies, and think of symphonies number 1-3 as being just as masterful as 4-6. His one symphonic work that I never understood and appreciated is Manfred! I sometimes feel guilty for not liking a work by my favorite composer! My absolute favorite symphonies by Tchaikovsky are 2, and 4-6, in addition to the concertos and ballets, although Nos. 1 and 3 are superb as well.


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## BlackAdderLXX (Apr 18, 2020)

I think Dvorak might be my favorite composer, but I'd take the Brahms symphonies over his and definitely over Schumann.


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## Radames (Feb 27, 2013)

haziz said:


> Funny that you shoe-horned Manfred in the midst, although that may have been the order of composition. Tchaikovsky, together with Beethoven, is my favorite composer, and I would rank him ahead of Dvorak and way ahead of Brahms. I love Tchaikovsky's numbered symphonies, and think of symphonies number 1-3 as being just as masterful as 4-6. His one symphonic work that I never understood and appreciated is Manfred! I sometimes feel guilty for not liking a work by my favorite composer! My absolute favorite symphonies by Tchaikovsky are 2, and 4-6, in addition to the concertos and ballets, although Nos. 1 and 3 are superb as well.


Tchaikovsky's 3rd is popular with the public when heard. It got a big ovation at SPAC and in Ottawa when it was played. Musicians don't seem to like it so much. I think it's great fun!


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

Aries said:


> Most drama in Brahms symphonies feels like pseudo drama. The occasional pseodo-dramatic staccatos are very weird. I can feel by the way he treats the material that something exciting will be very rare to happen. And excitement was probably not even desired by Brahms because he wrote that for the niminy-piminy vienna high society. I think there is a lack of expression, content and depth.


You mean this sort?:




 (38:12)
I still think that when he does it in Op.98/i, it feels "appropriate".


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## chu42 (Aug 14, 2018)

Schumann is my favorite composer and I do like his symphonies, but I would have to go with Brahms.


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

Radames said:


> Tchaikovsky's 3rd is popular with the public when heard. It got a big ovation at SPAC and in Ottawa when it was played. Musicians don't seem to like it so much. I think it's great fun!


Tchaik #3 is a wonderful piece....great fun to play....i much prefer PIT's first 3 symphonies to #s 4 and 5....they deserve much more program time.


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## Taplow (Aug 13, 2017)

It seems I'm going with the majority on this one.


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## Livly_Station (Jan 8, 2014)

Love the Schumann's symphony, but easy Brahms here.


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## BrahmsWasAGreatMelodist (Jan 13, 2019)

Eclectic Al said:


> Absolutely agreed. I noted earlier that in that case I would be Brahms, Schubert, Tchaikovsky, Dvorak, Schumann.
> Although if the differences were quantified it would be more like:
> 
> Brahms>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Schubert,Tchaikovsky>>>>>>>Dvorak>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Schumann


Which recordings of the Schumann symphonies have you heard? I think modern orchestras generally don't do them justice.


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## Ethereality (Apr 6, 2019)

Which of these symphonies (or their movements) are considered as rococo style? In a different consideration, among my favorites I can always seem to visualize all the notes moving around, away and together, similar to a complex Bach movement, like one of those piano roll videos. But the movements always have a solid rhythmic form. So not quite Brandenburg 3, but not quite Bruckner 3.

Beethoven 3 sounds the most rococo of his symphonies, then there's Brahms 3-1 and 4-1.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

Ethereality said:


> Which of these symphonies (or their movements) are considered as rococo style?
> Beethoven 3 sounds the most rococo of his symphonies, then there's Brahms 3-1 and 4-1.


It depends what you mean by rococo. Are you the kind who thinks Prokofiev's 2nd is more rococo than his 1st?


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## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

I went for the Brahms 4 - even though I am not really bothered about no 2 and no 3 - the first and fourth symphonies are marginally better for me, than Dvorak's 7th and 9th (not bothered about the 8th). I like all of Schumann's symphonies but dont think the best of them is as good as any of the 4 just cited.


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## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

Rococo is not commonly used for style description in music. If at all, it roughly corresponds to some strains of late baroque ("gallant") and early classical style but usually people do not use the term Rococo (unlike in visual arts). Even if one wanted to use Rococo for some aspects of some ca. 1740-80 music, the earliest Beethoven symphonies would be long afterwards. 
Schumann, Brahms and Dvorak are 100-150 years later than 1740, the question which one of them would be "the most rococo" is like asking if Courbet or Manet would be "Rococo painters.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

Kreisler jr said:


> Rococo is not commonly used for style description in music.


Right, but I sometimes feel people on this forum take Ethereality's "jokes" too seriously.


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## Ethereality (Apr 6, 2019)

Phil loves classical said:


> ^ I used to feel that way, still do somewhat. Brahms is not what I felt how music should sound when I was discovering Romantic music. I still can't take him seriously, but it can be stimulating. In something like from 3:10 - 3:25 here I feel he's creating his own drama by working himself up unnecessarily in order to rein himself in again.


Ah, that's how Brahms goes. Less organic than Beethoven, more experimental perhaps.

I agree his best is probably the 1st and perhaps the 4th. Dvorak's 9th while acclaimed on this forum, I actually prefer something more like Scheherazade as being more symphonic and inspired. The 9th feels kind of kitschy in comparison.



Kreisler jr said:


> Schumann, Brahms and Dvorak are 100-150 years later than 1740, the question which one of them would be "the most rococo" is like asking if Courbet or Manet would be "Rococo painters."


I think there are definitely degrees of comparison to the musical form, terms are not so black and white, like what IS Classical? vrs what is not.


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## Malx (Jun 18, 2017)

I can't choose one over the others but currently these are my favourite sets of the four symphonies.

Brahms - Berglund, COE.
Schumann - Holliger, WDR SO Köln.
Dvořák - Kubelik, Berlin PO.


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## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

Rococo is rarely used in music.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rococo#Music

If you mean which of the 19th century symphonies mentioned is most "classical", say most "regular" or Mozart-like that's also not easy to answer. Both for Schumann and Brahms the model is Beethoven above all, for Dvorak also Brahms (the Dvorak 6th first mvmt must be a homage to Brahms' 2nd and Dvorak's 7th also feels rather Brahmsian). 
I'd say the most "classicist" of the pieces in question are Schumann's 1st (IMO clearly influenced by Beethoven's 4th and Schubert's Great C major) and Brahms' 2nd although in the latter this concerns mostly mvmts 3 and 4. The finale's theme does sound a bit like Haydn and the 3rd movement might be more rococo-like (albeit looking back from later) than any actual Mozart menuet.


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## Ethereality (Apr 6, 2019)

Kreisler jr said:


> I'd say the most "classicist" of the pieces in question are Schumann's 1st (IMO clearly influenced by Beethoven's 4th and Schubert's Great C major) and Brahms' 2nd although in the latter this concerns mostly mvmts 3 and 4. The finale's theme does sound a bit like Haydn and the 3rd movement might be more rococo-like (albeit looking back from later) than any actual Mozart menuet.


Thanks for the suggestions! Fyi I don't adopt musical categories, as any term is a descriptor of surrounding music arising from or influencing the style. Classical refers to the music of Stravinsky or Gesualdo, or 'music of the Classical era', while Rococo styling can be noticed quite easily in early Romantic works. I agree with the article where as Gluck pushed away from this form, so Wagner did ever more, but 'Classical era' is probably not a term that helps distinguish this styling difference from the strict Romantic forms which developed out of rococo.


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## Judith (Nov 11, 2015)

Not so familiar with Dvorak but love both Brahms & Schumann no 4 but voted Schumann!


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## Aries (Nov 29, 2012)

Ethereality said:


> Thanks for the suggestions! Fyi I don't adopt musical categories, as any term is a descriptor of surrounding music arising from or influencing the style. Classical refers to the music of Stravinsky or Gesualdo, or 'music of the Classical era', while Rococo styling can be noticed quite easily in early Romantic works. I agree with the article where as Gluck pushed away from this form, so Wagner did ever more, but 'Classical era' is probably not a term that helps distinguish this styling difference from the strict Romantic forms which developed out of rococo.


The term "rococo" needs a definition. Outside of music is basically a style that keeps the ornamentation of Baroque but introduces asymmetry and a theatrical expression. Did Wagner move away from such a style compared to the early romantic style? Some Wagner pieces fit this description well imo, for example the Ouvertüre to Die Meistersinger von Nürnberg or the Ride of the Valkyries.


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## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

I don't know if this is meant seriously but "Rococo" is as I pointed out, rarely used in music and if then for music of the late baroque/gallant style or early classical (i.e. classical in the narrower sense of "Viennese classicism"). 
It has absolutely nothing to do with any post-1800 music. With the doubtful exception of pieces using some nostalgic reminiscences like Tchaikovsky's "Rococo variations" or "Mozartiana" or maybe Grieg's Holberg suite or that 3rd movement of Brahms' 2nd symphony.


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## Ethereality (Apr 6, 2019)

_It has absolutely nothing to do with any post-1800 music. _

It does, as some 19th cent. music didn't greatly depart from rococo forms and stylings. But whether or not people use the term doesn't entail that rococo stylings can't be recognized in music of the 1800s. So you don't have to use the term, but to say it's not there, is a bit of a stretch. It would be as if saying Mozart never existed, from where would composers draw their influence?


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## Kjetil Heggelund (Jan 4, 2016)

Wish it was multiple choice or all of the above


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## Terrapin (Apr 15, 2011)

I voted Brahms but also love Dvorak and enjoy the Schumann set. I would rank the 12 as follows:
1. Brahms 1
2. Dvorak 9
3. Brahms 2
4. Dvorak 8
5. Brahms 3
6. Brahms 4
7. Dvorak 7
8. Dvorak 6
9. Schumann 2
10. Schumann 1
11. Schumann 3
12. Schumann 4


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## Joek Baron (Oct 28, 2021)

i have never heard any symphony except for the last part of his 9th (i know, not a very humble introduction), this is maybe too much to ask but could you tell me your favourite recording per symphony? if you're interested i have only listened to the Kubelik and the saccani version of the 9th (last part)


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## Joek Baron (Oct 28, 2021)

i absolutely love brahms' 4th, and i treasure carlos kleiber's recording but i truly wish that carlos kleiber made a full cycle, he didn't so my question is if you could tell me your favorite recordings per symphony, thank you in advance


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## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

Carlos Kleiber conducted Brahms' 2nd but I have not heard it and I am not sure about availability, it was on video or laserdisc in the late 1980s. There should also be some live Brahms 4th around in addition to the DG studio as Kleiber's only orchestral program in the last few concerts he gave was, I believe, always the same: Coriolan Ouverture, Mozart's 33rd symphony, Brahms' 4th.


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## HerbertNorman (Jan 9, 2020)

I enjoy Dvorak , I enjoy Brahms and I enjoy Schumann... end of


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