# Let's talk DAS RHEINGOLD .......



## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

I love this complex, musically revolutionary prelude to Wagner's Ring.

There are many analogies, psychological situations and ideas contained in there and I'd like to explore them.

I's like to discuss them here.
For example the opening prelude and snatching of the gold have been likened to the Creation of the world, and the fall of mankind.

What are your thoughts on this, And what other analogies and/or meanings do you see in this work, in characters or situations or whatever you perceive.

Also, what are the situations that allude to the dramas ahead.

If this goes well, we can do the other 3 dramas as well.
I think this can be very interesting.
I hope you do too. 

I look forward to your thoughts on this amazing work.
Thanks :tiphat:


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## lextune (Nov 25, 2016)

In The Art-Work of the Future; the three primeval sisters' Dance, Music and Poetry form a single unity, until they are ripped apart by the "development" of Art. 
Woglinde, Wellgunde, and Floßhilde, can be seen to represent them, and their loss of the gold is them being torn apart. In that way the entire Der Ring des Nibelungen, is a journey towards their (and Art's) return to unity, (Gesamtkunstwerk).


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Itullian said:


> I love this complex, musically revolutionary prelude to Wagner's Ring.
> 
> There are many analogies, psychological situations and ideas contained in there and I'd like to explore them.
> 
> ...


It has a rather long second scene. It's worth trying to see Kupfer's first production for Bayreuth, not so much for the singers or orchestra but more for the production.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

lextune said:


> In The Art-Work of the Future; the three primeval sisters' Dance, Music and Poetry form a single unity, until they are ripped apart by the "development" of Art.
> Woglinde, Wellgunde, and Floßhilde, can be seen to represent them, and their loss of the gold is them being torn apart. In that way the entire Der Ring des Nibelungen, is a journey towards their (and Art's) return to unity, (Gesamtkunstwerk).


Very fanciful, lextune. It must have come to you in a dream. Unfortunately, the little nixies function as one body with three heads. And there's no dancing in the _Ring,_ unless you conflate "Dance" with "Acting."


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## lextune (Nov 25, 2016)

Obviously there is no dance in The Ring, so it does raise some interesting questions about Wagner's Gesamtkunstwerk...

First we can look at what Wagner has to say about it:

"The arts of Dance, of Music (the word translates better to 'Tone'), and Poetry: thus call themselves the three primeval sisters whom we see at once entwine their measures wherever the conditions necessary for artistic manifestation have arisen. By their nature they are inseparable. They are so closely interlaced with one another, of fairest love and inclination, so mutually bound up in each other's life, of body and of spirit: that each of the three partners, unlinked from the united chain and bereft thus of her own life and motion, can only carry on an artificially inbreathed and borrowed life."

I actually really like your idea of conflating the art of Dance to include the dance that Acting (when done well), can sometimes be. 
I think many Wagner lovers might be surprised, if they haven't read Wagner's stage directions before, just how much movement he specifically calls for throughout the cycle.

Certain scenes are absolutely filled with stage directions. The opening scene of Das Rheingold is one. Just a quick glance at the first few pages and one can often find Wagner asking for different movements from line to line

_(circling the central rock with a graceful swimming motion)
(from above)
(diving down through the waves to the rocky ledge)
(They playfully try to catch one another)
(darting swiftly upward)
(he clambers up to the top of the ledge with goblin-like agility)
(he tries to put his arms around her)
(descending a little closer towards him)_

On and on and on, but you get the point.

And hyper specific directions about how characters are looking into one another's eyes etc. etc.

Not to get too far off topic here, but I have also found people often have no idea how many emotional states Wagner specifically asks for in his directions, and not just straightforward emotions like "happily" or "sadly", things that can easily be construed by the text, but complex, interior, thoughts that inform emotion. Again, often line by line....

_(hastily)
(confidingly)
(ardently)
(guardedly)
(muted)_

Surely there is a director who could mold all this into a production that one might feel confident referring to as a "Dance"

....or perhaps not.


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

The Barenboim La Scala Ring has dancers flitting all over during the performance.
Just fyi.
I find it ludicrous though.


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## lextune (Nov 25, 2016)

But I am not thinking of actual dancing. Just thought out movement, that is determined, or delineated, in a way as to inspire the thought of dance. An hour into the opera I want to suddenly realize...
"The way they move it almost seems like a ballet."


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Wieland Wagner, in the midst of his minimalist revolution, once tartly said, "Wagner's music is not ballet music." It _is_ full of very graphic suggestions of stage action, though, and it's nice when a thoughtful composer's intentions are divined by a musically sensitive director and not blatantly ignored or contradicted as we tend to see now.

The "Gesamtkunstwerk" idea emerged in the throes of youthful theorizing, which Wagner seemed to require to get his creative juices flowing (later he would settle for caressing rose-scented silk fabric). In practice, he soon discovered that opera is a predominantly musical art and that music has to be its dominant expressive medium, the language in which the unspeakable is spoken. Of all his operas _Das Rheingold_ comes closest to giving words and music equal weight, but theory is drowned in the love-night of Siegmund and Sieglinde and never revives. It was _Tristan_ above all that turned the tide for Wagner, and instead of further talk of reuniting the orphaned arts he gave us _Die Meistersinger,_ a celebration of music. In the end he even thought about writing symphonies.


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

^^^Great post, as always Woodduck!!:tiphat:


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## mountmccabe (May 1, 2013)

I see, in the structure of _Das Rheingold_, the entire Ring. I think this structure is also strongly repeated in _Götterdämmerung_.

All three entities here (the whole Ring, _Das Rheingold_, and _Götterdämmerung_) are in four parts. The first is different and has a different focus. In part two it moves on to the heart of the matter and works to get us on board with really feeling what is going to drive the rest of the drama. I think the relationships between the third part of each are a little more complex, and far more interesting for that. Then there's part four, where the initial conflicts are resolved, such as they are, but complications we have realized along the way linger.

Both _Das Rheingold_ and _Götterdämmerung_ open on mythical beings, the daughters of the Rhine, and the daughters of Erda. They both lose what has been their focus, their power. In Rheingold this is due to the approach of Alberich, who will continue to cause trouble. Our initial view of the Norns is replaced by Brünnhilde and Siegfried, and it is their conflict (and contradiction of their loving words here) which will drive _Götterdämmerung_.

As scene 1 of _Das Rheingold_ introduces Alberich, opera one of the Ring introduces our first protagonist/antagonist, Wotan. The cycle can only partially be considered his story, as he is in decline for the rest of it. His careful planning and shaping of Siegmund and Sieglinde goes awry as does his favorite Valkyrie. He is left to be an observer, and his spear is destroyed by the upstart Siegfried. He is not present in the last opera, merely referred to as brooding and waiting for death.

Wotan is introduced in scene 2 of _Das Rheingold_, and similarly in the Ring as a whole we are introduced to our next major protagonist, Brünnhilde, in the second opera, _Die Walküre_. (We also meet Hagen, full antagonist, in act 1 (aka the second part) of _Götterdämmerung_). That second scene and second opera are much more personal affairs than the surrounding scenes or operas. The conflicts largely work on the family drama scale, providing a strong grounding for the fantasy setting. We see a similar situation in act 1 of _Götterdämmerung_, which deals with siblings with Hagen, Gunther, and Gutrune, the chosen siblinghood of blood brothers Siegfried and Gunther, and finally Brünnhilde and Waltraute.

Then there's the third part of each drama: Scene 3 of Rheingold, Siegfried of the Ring cycle, and act 2 of _Götterdämmerung_. These are, in each instance, when we move on from the gods. Of course in Rheingold we will return to Fricka and her siblings, but for now we descend into Nibelheim, and the stage is swarmed with Nibelungs. Only Mime and Alberich get voices, but we hear the anvils of the workers. Act 2 of _Götterdämmerung_ is when the stage is filled with the Gibichungs at Hagen's call. The house is also filled with their voices; we finally get a giant chorus. The gods are now truly gone; it is the time of the humans. This is paralleled in Siegfried in the opera of his name. He is human; he was born of two human parents. Over the course of the opera he defeats the old guard: a giant in Fafner, a Nibelung in Mime, and a god in Wotan. The stage is not filled with people (or at least should not be, in my opinion), because the changeover is represented by Siegfried's actions.

In Scene 4 of Rheingold, Wotan yields the ring. His consolation prize is that he gets to enter Valhalla. The cycle as a whole ends with our second protagonist, Brünnhilde, sacrificing herself and giving up the ring to cleanse it and return it to the Rheintöchter. And our antagonist for _Götterdämmerung_, Hagen, similarly chases after the ring, losing himself in the process.

These operas were structured very carefully, very deliberately. It's not entirely clean, but that helps it feel more realistic, more interesting, and with greater depth.

_Das Rheingold_ ends as it begins, with the singing of the Rheintöchter. The Ring cycle as a whole ends as it begins with the singing of the Rheintöchter. Act 3 of _Götterdämmerung_ ends as it begins with the singing of the Rheintöchter.


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## lextune (Nov 25, 2016)




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