# Solo Piano Master: Beethoven v Hummel v Schubert v Clementi



## beetzart (Dec 30, 2009)

Is this even a fair fight?  Some of Schubert's works for the piano are monumental. Just been listening to his three Klavierstukes D946 and they are amazing. If you throw in the impromptus and the moments music then you have a strong case against Beethoven.

I put Hummel and Clementi in there as counterweights. Both would have had an extremely impressive and more well known catalogue if the other two hadn't been born!


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## clavichorder (May 2, 2011)

I've been amazing myself with Schubert's piano music for this last half year. I agree that it's interesting to compare the styles of these composers that overlapped each other and share stylistic similarities. Hummel's piano sonatas are quite nice, and Clementi's later 1795 to 1820s sonatas are also interesting and can withstand comparison to the likes of Beethoven and Schubert, if not the equal in depth, scope, and intensity. If you are looking for more in this vein, Ries is worth exploring. Field also wrote some early sonatas that are really sweet, and then there are the Weber and Czerny. It's a nice era for piano music even outside the meat and potatoes staple of Beethoven and the stunning sublimity of Schubert. Countless opportunities for appreciating the sonata form.


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## DaveM (Jun 29, 2015)

Much as I like Schubert, I don't think there's a strong case against Beethoven's 32 sonatas. However, if Schubert had lived another 20 plus years...


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## clavichorder (May 2, 2011)

DaveM said:


> Much as I like Schubert, I don't think there's a strong case against Beethoven's 32 sonatas. However, if Schubert had lived another 20 plus years...


If Schubert had lived a mere ten years longer, there stands a chance of him being as household a name as Bach, Mozart, and Beethoven.


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## DaveM (Jun 29, 2015)

clavichorder said:


> If Schubert had lived a mere ten years longer, there stands a chance of him being as household a name as Bach, Mozart, and Beethoven.


Yes, could be. His output was already astoundingly advanced at the young age he passed away.


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## Flavius (Oct 7, 2017)

Fayrfax: Missa Tecum principium; Maria plena virtute. The Cardinall's Musick/ Carwood, Skinner (Gaudeamus)


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

Flavius said:


> Fayrfax: Missa Tecum principium; Maria plena virtute. The Cardinall's Musick/ Carwood, Skinner (Gaudeamus)


It must be a clue.


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## clavichorder (May 2, 2011)

DaveM said:


> Yes, could be. His output was already astoundingly advanced at the young age he passed away.


And maybe the poor guy would have lived to enjoy some amount of fame too...


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

Beethoven  :tiphat:


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Flavius said:


> Fayrfax: Missa Tecum principium; Maria plena virtute. The Cardinall's Musick/ Carwood, Skinner (Gaudeamus)


Please enlighten us?????


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## beetzart (Dec 30, 2009)

The beauty of Schubert is his experimentation and rapid modulations. It is almost as if he composes a passage and then thinks to himself 'Now what would that sound like if I added a flat here and a double sharp there?' and it sounded incredible even moreso to him when nothing like it has been composed before. So I believe his originality is right up there with Beethoven and like others have suggested he would probably have been the greatest of them all had he lived a decade or two longer.


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## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

Hummel and Clementi against each other - but who would care.

dont put 4 stone weaklings in with heavyweights


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## Animal the Drummer (Nov 14, 2015)

clavichorder said:


> If Schubert had lived a mere ten years longer, there stands a chance of him being as household a name as Bach, Mozart, and Beethoven.


In quite a few households I suspect he already is.


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## beetzart (Dec 30, 2009)

stomanek said:


> Hummel and Clementi against each other - but who would care.
> 
> dont put 4 stone weaklings in with heavyweights


Says the person with a depiction of Salieri as an avatar, now he was a weakling compared to Hummel and Clementi.


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## eugeneonagain (May 14, 2017)

Clementi is probably rather underrated. His music is both fun to play (the easier works) and great to listen to (the ones I can't play). I like to listen to Wim Winters playing Clementi on his marvellous clavichord at his 'authentic sound' youtube channel. He brings out a different side to it.


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## DaveM (Jun 29, 2015)

beetzart said:


> ...So I believe his originality is right up there with Beethoven and like others have suggested he would probably have been the greatest of them all had he lived a decade or two longer.


I think people were suggesting that he might have been right up there with the greatest, not _the_ greatest.


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## DaveM (Jun 29, 2015)

eugeneonagain said:


> Clementi is probably rather underrated. His music is both fun to play (the easier works) and great to listen to (the ones I can't play). I like to listen to Wim Winters playing Clementi on his marvellous clavichord at his 'authentic sound' youtube channel. He brings out a different side to it.


There are some gems in his massive piano output. A favorite of mine is the Sonata Op32 No2 Adagio wherein Clementi finds his inner Bach.


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## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

eugeneonagain said:


> Clementi is probably rather underrated. His music is both fun to play (the easier works) and great to listen to (the ones I can't play). I like to listen to Wim Winters playing Clementi on his marvellous clavichord at his 'authentic sound' youtube channel. He brings out a different side to it.


Now I usually agree with your posts - but here we differ.

i have listened to many of Clementi's sonatas and though initially they appear attractive - once you try to fathom then out musically - they are really quite superficial.

name me a top clementi sonata to change my mind


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## beetzart (Dec 30, 2009)

stomanek said:


> Now I usually agree with your posts - but here we differ.
> 
> i have listened to many of Clementi's sonatas and though initially they appear attractive - once you try to fathom then out musically - they are really quite superficial.
> 
> name me a top clementi sonata to change my mind


His Opus 50 collection of 3 sonatas. My favourite is the No.2 in D minor. Although No. 3 in G minor sonata has an interesting opening movement.


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## beetzart (Dec 30, 2009)

Schubert's Wanderer Fantasy is something else. Is it on par with Beethoven's Hammerclaiver Sonata?


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## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

beetzart said:


> His Opus 50 collection of 3 sonatas. My favourite is the No.2 in D minor. Although No. 3 in G minor sonata has an interesting opening movement.


I think it was you who trumped up Clementi on here before and led me to a futile half hour on you tube.

ok - well I'll try the d minor when I can.


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## beetzart (Dec 30, 2009)

stomanek said:


> I think it was you who trumped up Clementi on here before and led me to a futile half hour on you tube.
> 
> ok - well I'll try the d minor when I can.


Haha, sorry. You can take a horse to water but...you get what I mean.


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## eugeneonagain (May 14, 2017)

stomanek said:


> Now I usually agree with your posts - but here we differ.
> 
> i have listened to many of Clementi's sonatas and though initially they appear attractive - once you try to fathom then out musically - they are really quite superficial.
> 
> name me a top clementi sonata to change my mind


Above all else I'm not trying to make you go and listen to Clementi if you really don't like his music. I'm thinking of it from my own past _musique pour plaisir_ perspective when I first started learning piano. I don't know if you play, but playing pieces always gives me a better appreciation of them than just listening.

As a young teen I got a lot of pleasure out of playing Clementi's sonatinas op.36. I can't quite understand how you could enjoy Mozart's piano works and yet not enjoy these because they have a lot in common (as do the Beethoven sonatinas), leaving aside the personal opinions about 'who is greatest' or 'a genius'. The C major one was famously the model for Satie's 'Sonatine Bureaucratique' and in fact I discern more influence from Clementi on Satie's so-called 'humoristic' period of 1908-1919.

What do you mean by 'superficial'?

Anyway, apart from those sonatinas I also like the sonata posted below. If you don't like it or any others, then I supose you just don't like Clementi's music and really that's okay. You don't have to like it.


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## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

eugeneonagain said:


> Above all else I'm not trying to make you go and listen to Clementi if you really don't like his music. I'm thinking of it from my own past _musique pour plaisir_ perspective when I first started learning piano. I don't know if you play, but playing pieces always gives me a better appreciation of them than just listening.
> 
> As a young teen I got a lot of pleasure out of playing Clementi's sonatinas op.36. I can't quite understand how you could enjoy Mozart's piano works and yet not enjoy these because they have a lot in common (as do the Beethoven sonatinas), leaving aside the personal opinions about 'who is greatest' or 'a genius'. The C major one was famously the model for Satie's 'Sonatine Bureaucratique' and in fact I discern more influence from Clementi on Satie's so-called 'humoristic' period of 1908-1919.
> 
> ...


I haven't explored in great depth - I listened to maybe 30 minutes or so of 2 sonatas but I felt Clementi, though capable of inventing fine ideas, explored and developed them poorly. 
No I dont play - I will re-appraise my opinion and get back to you.


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## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

beetzart said:


> Schubert's Wanderer Fantasy is something else. Is it on par with Beethoven's Hammerclaiver Sonata?


I agree with you there - love the Wanderer - prefer it to the hammerclavier.


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

I prefer Beethoven's Hammerklavier to Schubert's Wanderer. I'd find it hard to answer the question if the Wanderer was switched with Schubert's D.894 or D. 959.


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## beetzart (Dec 30, 2009)

I believe Beethoven used to carry Clementi piano sonata scores around with him, and Clementi's influence on early Beethoven piano music was possibly greater than that of Haydn and Mozart. I might be wrong but I think Clementi was the 1st composer to add introductions to his piano sonatas. Haydn and Mozart didn't do this but I would hazard a guess that Clementi may have had some influence in Beethoven's Pathetique sonata. Later on Clementi became Beethoven's chief publisher in London and the two were good friends.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

eugeneonagain said:


> ...Anyway, apart from those sonatinas I also like the sonata posted below. If you don't like it or any others, then I supose you just don't like Clementi's music and really that's okay. You don't have to like it.


I enjoyed the Op. 40 No. 2, thanks! Maybe a little busy... Anyway, it sounds like Beethoven may have gotten the idea for the closing of his Appassionata from Clementi's finale. 

Beethoven is supposed to have said, "Whoever studies Clementi thoroughly has simultaneously also learned Mozart and other authors; inversely, however, this is not the case." (As reported by Schindler anyway.)


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## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

KenOC said:


> I enjoyed the Op. 40 No. 2, thanks! Maybe a little busy... Anyway, it sounds like Beethoven may have gotten the idea for the closing of his Appassionata from Clementi's finale.
> 
> Beethoven is supposed to have said, "Whoever studies Clementi thoroughly has simultaneously also learned Mozart and other authors; inversely, however, this is not the case." (As reported by Schindler anyway.)


Great composers have made many strange statements over the years - Beethoven himself dismissed Cosi fan Tutte as an opera because of its subject matter - overlooking the glories of the music - it is now one of the gems of the modern repertoire.

Mozart studied J C Bach and held him in high esteem - now his music is hardly played, deservedly so in my view.


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

stomanek said:


> Mozart studied J C Bach and held him in high esteem - now his music is hardly played, deservedly so in my view.


I listen to JC Bach played on recordings, and there are plenty of them to choose from. Put the hit on Clementi if you want, but JC deserves better.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

stomanek said:


> Great composers have made many strange statements over the years - Beethoven himself dismissed Cosi fan Tutte as an opera because of its subject matter - overlooking the glories of the music - it is now one of the gems of the modern repertoire.
> 
> Mozart studied J C Bach and held him in high esteem - now his music is hardly played, deservedly so in my view.


Beethoven also said, " 'Don Juan' still has the complete Italian cut; besides our sacred art ought never permit itself to be degraded to the level of a foil for so scandalous a subject."

BTW he had a soft spot for CPE Bach, esp. the keyboard works.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

beetzart said:


> Schubert's Wanderer Fantasy is something else. Is it on par with Beethoven's Hammerclaiver Sonata?


No not quite but it is a terrific piece of music


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## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

Bulldog said:


> I listen to JC Bach played on recordings, and there are plenty of them to choose from. Put the hit on Clementi if you want, but JC deserves better.


perhaps you are right - but when there is mozart/beet/schubert/bach js to listen to - it's not easy to find a place for clemeni jc bach et al


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## beetzart (Dec 30, 2009)

All four composers listed are amazing creatures really. How good would Clementi be if he lived today, say? Wasn't he the finest pianist in Europe at one point. Also don't' forget his Gradus ad Parnassum. 100 pieces and quite an incredible collection of music, sadly very underrated. And that's just Clementi. I accept that Beethoven's 32 piano sonatas are probably the greatest body of solo piano music known to humanity, maybe even the greatest body of music ever. Sadly, only a tiny portion of the world listen to it. Hummel was a beast in his day. He wrote an incredible Fantasy for piano in E flat major Op, 18. And Schubert, well I would just want to give him a big hug.


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## DaveM (Jun 29, 2015)

Hummel was somewhat of a enigma for his period writing concertos or other relatively major works for oboe, trumpet, flute, mandolin and less heard combinations such as concerto for violin & piano and the work below for trio of piano, cello and flute. Overall, I think Hummel has been underrated and unfairly ignored over the years though more of his works are available than in the years when I searched, in vain, for them in the vinyl record stacks at the Hollywood Tower Records Classical Annex.

My one gripe with him is that, for someone who lived 10 years beyond Beethoven, too many of his works appear influenced by Mozart. Still, the wonderful following work is more in keeping with the early Romantic period. Note the beautiful recapitulation starting at 1:50.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

DaveM said:


> ...My one gripe with him is that, for someone who lived 10 years beyond Beethoven, too many of his works appear influenced by Mozart. Still, the wonderful following work is more in keeping with the early Romantic period. Note the beautiful recapitulation starting at 1:50.


Excellent piece. The set of variations in the 2nd movement is very reminiscent of a set of flute variations by Beethoven, his Op. 107 No. 7. The theme is the Russian folk song "Minka," which it seems is actually Ukrainian. To make it easy to compare:

Hummel's variations from Op. 87

Beethoven's variations from Op. 107


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## eugeneonagain (May 14, 2017)

Honestly, two piano chords into that video and some twit coughs!


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## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

beetzart said:


> All four composers listed are amazing creatures really. How good would Clementi be if he lived today, say? Wasn't he the finest pianist in Europe at one point. Also don't' forget his Gradus ad Parnassum. 100 pieces and quite an incredible collection of music, sadly very underrated. And that's just Clementi. I accept that Beethoven's 32 piano sonatas are probably the greatest body of solo piano music known to humanity, maybe even the greatest body of music ever. Sadly, only a tiny portion of the world listen to it. Hummel was a beast in his day. He wrote an incredible Fantasy for piano in E flat major Op, 18. And Schubert, well I would just want to give him a big hug.


There are many composers from the 16th/17th/18th/19th centuries who were mega composers in their day but virtually unknown now. Clementi at least supplies students with millions of notes to perfect their techniques. It can be interesting to dip occasionally into the past and try out these forgotten heroes - but from my experience - it soon becomes clear whey their music is diregarded, competant though much of it is - but today with so much competition from the canon of masters it's not surprising.


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## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

eugeneonagain said:


> Honestly, two piano chords into that video and some twit coughs!


an executtable offence in my opinion - people would soon stop coughing in concerts if there were dire consequences.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

I bought the disc of Hummel piano concertos played by Hough and honestly they are not that interesting. They are not bad but why listen to them when there are better works to listen to?


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

DavidA said:


> I bought the disc of Hummel piano concertos played by Hough and honestly they are not that interesting. They are not bad but why listen to them when there are better works to listen to?


Because they're good to listen to? "The best is enemy of the good."


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## beetzart (Dec 30, 2009)

stomanek said:


> There are many composers from the 16th/17th/18th/19th centuries who were mega composers in their day but virtually unknown now. Clementi at least supplies students with millions of notes to perfect their techniques. It can be interesting to dip occasionally into the past and try out these forgotten heroes - but from my experience - it soon becomes clear whey their music is diregarded, competant though much of it is - but today with so much competition from the canon of masters it's not surprising.


I agree with you there. You only have to scratch the surface of IMSLP to see the vast amount of lesser known composers that existed. Take JL Dussek for example or Vorisek. Both wrote some beautiful piano music that has just been overlooked because they couldn't compete with Beethoven and Schubert. Yet their music has been recorded and is plentiful on Amazon so there are people out there who care about a multitude of hardly known composers, it is then just a knack or luck to find ones that impress you. It makes me wonder if the likes of Naxos record a sizable amount of music at a loss. I guess the more popular composers help fund the JB Cramers of the musical world.


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## Alydon (May 16, 2012)

I don't think the other three composers can touch Beethoven's output for the keyboard and that also goes for most other composers as well. Schubert is the only real contender here and marvellous as some of his piano music is I only gained a fuller understanding of his status keyboard-wise when I purchased Andreas Schiff's complete set of the sonatas. What struck me when listening through Schubert's sonatas was the fact he was quite inconsistent, especially in the earlier sonatas and on top of that you have a few unfinished pieces and the impression that on that particular day Schubert was exactly inspired. Out of Schubert's piano sonatas only six or seven would count as masterpieces as do the other sets of piano music, but Beethovens output, sonatas and 99% of variations, bagatelles etc. are all considered works of the upmost quality.
I have always enjoyed Clementi and most of his later sonatas are very worthy and have touches of genius, but the early sonatas and sonatinas have always been thought of as practice pieces for piano students. Hummel's music has far greater depth in my opinion and certainly in his day was considered one of the greatest musicians in Europe.


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## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

eugeneonagain said:


> Above all else I'm not trying to make you go and listen to Clementi if you really don't like his music. I'm thinking of it from my own past _musique pour plaisir_ perspective when I first started learning piano. I don't know if you play, but playing pieces always gives me a better appreciation of them than just listening.
> 
> As a young teen I got a lot of pleasure out of playing Clementi's sonatinas op.36. I can't quite understand how you could enjoy Mozart's piano works and yet not enjoy these because they have a lot in common (as do the Beethoven sonatinas), leaving aside the personal opinions about 'who is greatest' or 'a genius'. The C major one was famously the model for Satie's 'Sonatine Bureaucratique' and in fact I discern more influence from Clementi on Satie's so-called 'humoristic' period of 1908-1919.
> 
> ...


When did Clementi compose the op 40 sonatas? It sounds like one of the Beethoven sonatas but I cant recall which one. If you are telling me that this sonata was composed before Beethoven got going with his great works - then that is impressive as there are some stylistic features here that I thought originated with Beethoven.

But ultimately there is a quality deficit on his ideas, melody, structure, that I think will keep him more or less in obscurity.


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## eugeneonagain (May 14, 2017)

The op.40 is from 1802; at least that is its publication year.


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## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

eugeneonagain said:


> The op.40 is from 1802; at least that is its publication year.


and Beethoven's pathetique was published in 1799.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

stomanek said:


> and Beethoven's pathetique was published in 1799.


Might add that Beethoven was considered a major composer by 1799, and the Pathetique was a big hit. I doubt there's any way that another composer for the piano around that time wouldn't have been familiar with it.


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## eugeneonagain (May 14, 2017)

stomanek said:


> and Beethoven's pathetique was published in 1799.


What is the actual issue here though? I know this is another 'someone vs someone else' thread, but it doesn't need to be a battle to the death. Enjoying Clementi doesn't entail continuously making comparisons with Beethoven.

Beethoven kept copies of Clementi's sonatas and other piano works for personal use and thought highly of his works.

However, as people seem to like competitions here's something for you. Clementi's Sonata in B-flat major. As you're an admirer of Mr W.A. Mozart its opening movement may be of interest to you...preceding Wolfgang by a decade.


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## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

eugeneonagain said:


> What is the actual issue here though? I know this is another 'someone vs someone else' thread, but it doesn't need to be a battle to the death. Enjoying Clementi doesn't entail continuously making comparisons with Beethoven.
> 
> Beethoven kept copies of Clementi's sonatas and other piano works for personal use and thought highly of his works.
> 
> However, as people seem to like competitions here's something for you. Clementi's Sonata in B-flat major. As you're an admirer of Mr W.A. Mozart its opening movement may be of interest to you...preceding Wolfgang by a decade.


The issue - probably my stubborn belief - along with Mozart himself - that Clementi was no talent. Having heard the op 40 no 2 I would probably be better off listening to sonatas that were composed before Clementi fell under the influence of Beethoven.

Thanks for your recommendations.


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## beetzart (Dec 30, 2009)

Have you ever listened to Clementi's Gradus ad Parnassum? Acquired taste maybe but certainly interesting with a lot of variety.

Here's the first two pieces of the set:


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