# Why is minor key music more expressive?



## Kieran (Aug 24, 2010)

Also, why did the classical composers neglect the minor keys, where the Romantic composers saturated the minor-key market? 

What is it about the minor keys than turn music towards gloom, introspection, melancholia, tragedy? And are similar effects possible by staying only in the major key?

I'm not a musician, so these terms are like the squiggles in a gnostic manual to me. I read a lot about Mozart and Beethoven, but when it gets into this kind of talk, I understand that a work in a minor key can be more expressive - but not how or why.

Cheers! :tiphat:


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## Ravndal (Jun 8, 2012)

Because feelings like fear, melancholy, tragedy etc. is probably the strongest feelings we have


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## Guest (Nov 28, 2012)

Ravndal said:


> Because feelings like fear, melancholy, tragedy etc. is probably the strongest feelings we have


Yes, but that doesn't explain _why _minor key generates those feelings.


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## Wandering (Feb 27, 2012)

^ I don't see _this_ going anywhere, here we go....


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## Ramako (Apr 28, 2012)

It's to do with the overtones...

Certain intervals are 'more consonant' because they come first (e.g. the octave and the fifth). The unison is the most consonant interval possible.

In equal temperament, we approximate the major third (which comes after the fifth), and it is a tiny bit sharp. From these intervals (unison, fifth and major third) we derive the normal major triad. The minor triad is therefore a kind of artificial creation. The third is flattened away from where it would be in the natural overtones. While the major third may be sharp, the minor third is very flat. For this reason, the minor triad, and by extension minor keys, are less stable - because it is literally a 'less consonant' chord (this is why some pieces in the minor end in the major with the tierce de picardie etc. - because it makes the ending more stable). It is this lack of stability that lends the minor key more 'expressiveness', or at least the quality that may be interpreted as such. It is effectively more dissonant than the major.


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## Ravndal (Jun 8, 2012)

MacLeod said:


> Yes, but that doesn't explain _why _minor key generates those feelings.


No, but it explains why the romantic composers "saturated the minor key market "


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

Kieran said:


> What is it about the minor keys than turn music towards gloom, introspection, melancholia, tragedy? And are similar effects possible by staying only in the major key?


The "dissonance" is one reason, as stated above by *Ramako.*

Also, the minor keys have more chromatic possibilities: more chords can be built on "black notes," giving us more steps than the normal major 1-7, such as b6, b7 or raised 7, and b3. There are different versions of minor, which also add to the chromatic possibilities: Dorian minor, melodic minor, harmonic minor, natural (Aolian) minor, and Phrygian minor.

In earlier times, these were all known; maybe not used as much because music was generally less chromatic. There may have been tuning problems as well: some of the chromatic-step chords might have sounded unacceptably out-of-tune in the limited Mean-tone tunings, which were based around the imperative of creating better *major* thirds.

Going off of what *Ramako* said, to hear what "just" minor thirds sound like, listen to *Terry Riley's* _Shri Camel._


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## Kieran (Aug 24, 2010)

That's great, thanks for that! A lot of it is technical detail but I think Ramako's line below definitely helps:



Ramako said:


> It is this lack of stability that lends the minor key more 'expressiveness', or at least the quality that may be interpreted as such. It is effectively more dissonant than the major.


And millionrainbows telling me that there may have been tuning difficulties early on suggests the machinary wasn't in place for such things until after the classical period.

Thanks again! :tiphat:


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## Arsakes (Feb 20, 2012)

Because most of in-Major works looks happy and less expressive. 
But there is exceptions, like Brahms' symphony No.3 which is very motivating and looks sad.

I can count many A-minor concertos that are masterpiece and my favorites.


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## Xaltotun (Sep 3, 2010)

Apollo rules the major, and his point is to be NOT expressive; he is the Sun, a marble statue, a doric colonnade. He is a picture, perfection and harmony.

Dionysos rules the minor, and he is making faces all the time.


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## kv466 (May 18, 2011)

I always come back to this one but it's one of the most non-major sounding pieces I know.


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## Jord (Aug 13, 2012)

I think Ramako and millionrainbows may of already covered this point but the reason i think is that with major keys dissonances and clashes would sound horrible to me personally, whereas minor keys you can create dissonances and it works, it gives a really evil eerie feeling that makes us feel a certain way, so major key music to a lot of people may seem boring because we are constantly knowing what will come next, if it's strictly tonal major key music anyway, minor key pieces would bring new ideas to music and make us hear things differently


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## clavichorder (May 2, 2011)

Jord said:


> I think Ramako and millionrainbows may of already covered this point but the reason i think is that with major keys dissonances and clashes would sound horrible to me personally, whereas minor keys you can create dissonances and it works, it gives a really evil eerie feeling that makes us feel a certain way, so major key music to a lot of people may seem boring because we are constantly knowing what will come next, if it's strictly tonal major key music anyway, minor key pieces would bring new ideas to music and make us hear things differently


Not a fan of neoclassicism? Major key dissonance and metric complexity is often their game.


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## clavichorder (May 2, 2011)

Brahms 3rd symphony has to be one of the darkest works I can think of that is labeled as being in a major key. The pervasive feeling is one of unrest and a sort of manic desperation in the first movement. Incredibly ambiguous sound, that generally makes a pessimist like me go to the dark side. The finale is dark and mostly in F minor but ends on an F major chord that is somehow creepy based on its orchestration. Only a composer as brilliant and naturally dark as Brahms could pull something like this.

A lot of major key romantic music is infused with a manic energy. Tchaikovsky knows how to create a sense of overriding joy or unreal day dream like happiness(which always has an ominous tinge of darkness to it) in the major key as opposed to static stability or jolliness. Bruckner manages to Brucknerize any tonalities that fall under his jurisdiction, usually meaning that there is something unreal, grand, and even unsettling about it. Bruckner even could do a slow movement in a major key and make it not seem entirely healthy but very intense.


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## Jord (Aug 13, 2012)

clavichorder said:


> Not a fan of neoclassicism? Major key dissonance and metric complexity is often their game.


To be honest i'm not too sure, i just can't remember hearing any major works that sounded really dissonant that it stood out for me


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## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

Some people confuse the chromaticism and tonal instability of movements like the third of Bruckner's 9th (E major) or the first of Mahler's 9th (D major) with minor-key tonality. You can have minor-based music without any chromaticism, but then it's modal, rather than tonal (found more often in pop/rock than classical music). Otherwise, you have to make use of both the unsharpened and sharpened sixth and seventh of the scale to create a leading tone effect.

As for melancholy major-key music, what about Franz Schmidt's 4th Symphony in C major?


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

Mahlerian said:


> You can have minor-based music without any chromaticism, but then it's modal, rather than tonal (found more often in pop/rock than classical music). Otherwise, you have to make use of both the unsharpened and sharpened sixth and seventh of the scale to create a leading tone effect.


Chromaticism is not the only factor to consider in minor key instability, or its avoidance in earlier, less chromatic times. Also, modal music can be very tonal, with a key center and chord functions, depending on how strictly you wish to define "tonality" as opposed to "modal."

I see little use in differentiating dorian from aolean (the natural minor used in major/minor tonality) other than the raised 6th of dorian vs. the natural 6th of aolean, _except_ for when you _build chords_ on these: then IV in dorian becomes _major,_ not minor, which is a big _harmonic_ difference, but not _melodically_ significant.

Consider chord function: in C major, tonic, subdominant, and dominant are all major (consonant).

The modes of that _same_ C major scale are more dissonant as far as function: in dorian mode (D-E-F-G-A-B-C, no sharps or flats), the tonic chord is minor (D-F-A), the subdominant is major, and the dominant is minor. That's more dissonant, if not more chromatic.

It gets more dissonant in other modes: in phrygian mode (E-F-G-A-B-C-D), no sharps or flats, tonic is minor (E-G-B), subdominant is minor (A-C-E) and dominant is minor 7b5 (B-D-F-A).

In locrian mode (B-C-D-E-F-G-A), no sharps or flats, tonic is minor 7b5 (B-D-F), subdominant is minor (E-G-B), and dominant is (F-A-C).


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## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

millionrainbows said:


> Chromaticism is not the only factor to consider in minor key instability, or its avoidance in earlier, less chromatic times. Also, modal music can be very tonal, with a key center and chord functions, depending on how strictly you wish to define "tonality" as opposed to "modal."
> 
> I see little use in differentiating dorian from aolean (the natural minor used in major/minor tonality) other than the raised 6th of dorian vs. the natural 6th of aolean, _except_ for when you _build chords_ on these: then IV in dorian becomes _major,_ not minor, which is a big _harmonic_ difference, but not _melodically_ significant.
> 
> ...


Likewise, moving out a little farther, the dominant of dominant in a major key is either a minor chord or requires one tone to be sharpened, whereas in a minor key, it occurs naturally on the scale as a diminished triad, and would need two sharpened tones to be a true secondary dominant.

I recently read through Schoenberg's Harmonielehre, and I found it interesting how he relates secondary dominant chords to the church modes (i.e. V of V in major through the lydian), rather than the traditional explanations of temporary tonicisation.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

Mahlerian said:


> I recently read through Schoenberg's Harmonielehre, and I found it interesting how he relates secondary dominant chords to the church modes (i.e. V of V in major through the lydian), rather than the traditional explanations of temporary tonicisation.


Hmm...I'll pull my copy and look that up. I also think it's interesting how both he & Walter Piston treat the resolution of the vii chord, placing an imaginary "G" under it (G-B-D-F) and resolving it to C just like a dominant.

Also, Schoenberg mentions how lowering any tone of a diminished seventh chord turns it into a dominant.


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## Petwhac (Jun 9, 2010)

millionrainbows said:


> Also, Schoenberg mentions how lowering any tone of a diminished seventh chord turns it into a dominant.


Here in the UK the dim 7th is known as the Clapham Junction of harmony. That being the name of a main line train hub from which you can travel to many destinations. Lowering any one of the four tones sets you off in a different direction.

All aboard.....


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## wogandmush (Nov 28, 2012)

As for classical composers' tendency in favour of major keys, I think this is can be attributed to their use of tonal contrast to create drama. The more tonally stable the opening of a piece, the greater the impact when you reach the tonally unstable development.


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## Ramako (Apr 28, 2012)

wogandmush said:


> As for classical composers' tendency in favour of major keys, I think this is can be attributed to their use of tonal contrast to create drama. The more tonally stable the opening of a piece, the greater the impact when you reach the tonally unstable development.


Very interesting point!


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## LordBlackudder (Nov 13, 2010)

because sounds effect how we react instinctively. and the composer has control of the sounds.

like a blind man walking or the meaning of the ice cream van sound.

a child or woman screaming effects you and raises senses and adrenaline, heart rate, alertness.

people have labeled it minor and major.


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## etkearne (Sep 28, 2012)

I am pretty sure it has to do with the fact that there are multiple minor scales and all of them are utilized in Romantic Music, whereas only one or two variants of the major, Ionian mode, are used in that period. So you are given, like someone else said, the possibility of raising or lowering the sixth (harmonic-izing) the seventh (dominant-izing the tonic), and third. And that's just the Aeolian (natural minor), Harmonic Minor, and Melodic (Jazz Minor).

That would be my guess: more cadential possibilities emerge. More modulatory directions appear.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

etkearne said:


> That would be my guess: more cadential possibilities emerge. More modulatory directions appear.


I agree with that; the significance of a raised or lowered sixth is of little consequence melodically, but when we build chords It will have a significant harmonic impact, the difference between major and minor.


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## Lukecash12 (Sep 21, 2009)

Maybe it isn't? I don't think it is. Try looking at it like this: you have a friend who always comes to you with nothing but problems, who is always anxious and depressed, always cynical. IMO, that type of person isn't very mature.

But moving on into more relevant ground: certain things warrant a negative mood, and others don't. For me, mellodrama is only expressive in that it can be analogous and symbolic. Which is primarily why I prefer the Baroque.


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## Lukecash12 (Sep 21, 2009)

etkearne said:


> I am pretty sure it has to do with the fact that there are multiple minor scales and all of them are utilized in Romantic Music, whereas only one or two variants of the major, Ionian mode, are used in that period. So you are given, like someone else said, the possibility of raising or lowering the sixth (harmonic-izing) the seventh (dominant-izing the tonic), and third. And that's just the Aeolian (natural minor), Harmonic Minor, and Melodic (Jazz Minor).
> 
> That would be my guess: more cadential possibilities emerge. More modulatory directions appear.


But that is just Romantic music. I find modal exploration of the major keys to be just as effective. Perotin didn't need to use high drama to be just as inspirational and expressive as Romantic composers.


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## Guest (Dec 5, 2012)

I'm finding this confusing, perhaps because the OP asked four questions, and some responses haven't made clear which one they are answering. The one I've been looking for a response to is



> What is it about the minor keys than turn [that turns?] music towards gloom, introspection, melancholia, tragedy?


I presume that the answer to this is something to do with the way the brain is hard-wired to recognise certain sounds in certain ways?


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Maybe somebody else can chime in on this -- but it seems to me that in baroque music (especially Bach) the minor key was used without the sturm und drang associations we hear today. Just another choice for the music. Today we feel that the minor key has certain "characters" that we associate with sadness, drama, whatever. Maybe these association didn't exist until the early Viennese classical period.


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## wogandmush (Nov 28, 2012)

MacLeod said:


> I'm finding this confusing, perhaps because the OP asked four questions, and some responses haven't made clear which one they are answering. The one I've been looking for a response to is
> 
> What is it about the minor keys than turn [that turns?] music towards gloom, introspection, melancholia, tragedy?
> 
> I presume that the answer to this is something to do with the way the brain is hard-wired to recognise certain sounds in certain ways?


This question falls into the fairly young field of musical cognition. Some studies have found analogies between musical associations and how we express emotions in speech.

http://blogs.scientificamerican.com...sic-and-speech-share-a-code-for-c-2010-06-17/

http://ase.tufts.edu/psychology/music-cognition/emotion2009.html

Quite interesting, n'est pas? I don't know of any competing theories but this seems quite persuasive to me.


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## Lukecash12 (Sep 21, 2009)

KenOC said:


> Maybe somebody else can chime in on this -- but it seems to me that in baroque music (especially Bach) the minor key was used without the sturm und drang associations we hear today. Just another choice for the music. Today we feel that the minor key has certain "characters" that we associate with sadness, drama, whatever. Maybe these association didn't exist until the early Viennese classical period.


These certain "characters" existed in the tuning systems of the time. Oftentimes we forget that the intervals of each key signature sounded different back then. But there wasn't so much dramatic contrast before sturm und drang and the concert music of the Baroque Italians.

IMO, those associations were alive and well, and honestly appear more sophisticated than what we see in a lot of later music. Especially when you observe two opposing motifs. You can't get that when counterpoint isn't as prominent. Think of how chromatic Bach's Passion motif is (in the St. Matthew Passion), at the same time that a major key motif is being played against it. It's hard to find such mingled emotions like this in Romantic music.

This is another reason to listen to Baroque keyboard music on the harpsichord, for example, because a period tuning will probably be used.


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## Sonata (Aug 7, 2010)

For reasons unknown, whenever I am just "noodling" around on a keyboard for fun, my music always sounds moody and melancholy. My subconscious must be obsessed with minor key :lol:


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## willimek (Mar 31, 2013)

*Why do Minor Keys sound sad?*

If you want to answer the question, why minor chords sound sad, there is the problem, that some minor chords don't sound sad. The solution is the Theory of Musical Equilibration. It says, that music is not able to transmit emotions directly. Music can just convey processes of will, but the music listener fills this processes of will with emotions. Similar, when you watch a dramatic movie in television, the movie cannot transmit emotions directly, but processes of will. The spectator perceives the processes of will dyed with emotions - identifying with the protagonist. When you listen music you identify too, but with an anonymous will now.
If you perceive a major chord, you normally identify with the will "Yes, I want to...". If you perceive a minor chord, you identify normally with the will "I don't want any more...". If you play the minor chord softly, you connect the will "I don't want any more..." with a feeling of sadness. If you play the minor chord loudly, you connect the same will with a feeling of rage. You distinguish in the same way as you would distinguish, if someone would say the words "I don't want anymore..." the first time softly and the second time loudly. 
This operations of will in the music were unknown until the Theory of Musical Equilibration discovered them. And therefore many previous researches in psychology of music failed. If you want more information about music and emotions and get the answer, why music touches us emotionally, you can download the essay "Music and Emotions - Research on the Theory of Musical Equilibration" for free. You can get it on the link:
www.willimekmusic.de/music-and-emotions.pdf
Enjoy reading
Bernd Willimek


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## StlukesguildOhio (Dec 25, 2006)

It's not. That's like saying blue is more expressive than red.


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## Aramis (Mar 1, 2009)

StlukesguildOhio said:


> It's not. That's like saying blue is more expressive than red.


Rather the other way around, red being more garish and associated with passion, blood and stuff. In both cases, it's only superficial appearance of expression which might truely be found undernath as well as in colder colours/major keys.


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## shangoyal (Sep 22, 2013)

StlukesguildOhio said:


> It's not. That's like saying blue is more expressive than red.


Yes, it's the same as saying blue is more expressive than red. Are you saying blue and red are not different? Our blood is red, the sky is blue. Clearly different things, and that contributes to the different connotations we give to the two colours. Similarly with music.


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## Cosmos (Jun 28, 2013)

Why is minor key more expressive? Really, every key is very expressive, and it's up to the composer to make it moreso expressive. I.e. The slow movement of Mozart's Piano Concerto 21 is very expressive even though it's C major. 

The basic minor keys just sound sadder to our ears than major ones. Thus evoking more "negative" emotions of melancholy, gloom, sadness, tragedy, etc. Major keys can do this too, in the right hands. The 4th movement of Mahler's 5th is very sad, introspective, and fills the listener with a sense of longing (or at least for me it does), and it's in a major key.

Finally, I'm not sure why there's more use of minor keys in Romantic music over Classical music. Perhaps it's because the aristocrats and royalty who were funding composers did not darker works? Or maybe that's just a bad assumption on my part.


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## StlukesguildOhio (Dec 25, 2006)

Yes, it's the same as saying blue is more expressive than red. Are you saying blue and red are not different? Our blood is red, the sky is blue. Clearly different things, and that contributes to the different connotations we give to the two colours. Similarly with music.

Red and Blue are both deemed as "expressive" by the viewer. One is not "more expressive" than the other... although we, the audience, may feel they are expressive of different things.

Or is this:










... less expressive than this:










... or this?


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## shangoyal (Sep 22, 2013)

Yes, _at specific times_, one might be more expressive than the others to the viewer. Depends on the mood. I don't think we can say for _all times_ and _all places._


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## Silkenblack (Apr 12, 2013)

And then there is this dualist MO of the brain; rational and emotional.
There is more, though – a third room of mind.
Overlooked, neglected and under-nourished.
The instincts, which we are born with.


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## Copperears (Nov 10, 2013)

KenOC said:


> Maybe somebody else can chime in on this -- but it seems to me that in baroque music (especially Bach) the minor key was used without the sturm und drang associations we hear today. Just another choice for the music. Today we feel that the minor key has certain "characters" that we associate with sadness, drama, whatever. Maybe these association didn't exist until the early Viennese classical period.


Doesn't it have to do with early music (Gregorian Plain Chant period) associating dissonance with evil, and harmony with good?

Dissonance and complex harmonics don't in themselves have to mean "bad," but they are taken to be so. Although as has also been said, our audio neural systems are probably pre-programmed to associate more dissonant, noise-like sounds with danger, so that part may not just be cultural conditioning.

Metal takes all this and melodramatizes it by insisting on playing in the keys rejected by early Christianity, a bit literal-minded when it's not just in plain fun, which it mostly is.

Basically, it's all this guy's fault:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pepin_the_Short

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plainsong#History

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gregorian_chant#History






Hmm, this all makes me hungry for good Byzantine historical fiction, any recommendations?


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## BurningDesire (Jul 15, 2012)

StlukesguildOhio said:


> It's not. That's like saying blue is more expressive than red.


We actually agree on something.


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

Kieran said:


> What is it about the minor keys than turn music towards gloom, introspection, melancholia, tragedy? And are similar effects possible by staying only in the major key?


About this, I've read articles that say that when we speak we tend to use the minor third to communicate sadness. So it is possible that we associate negative emotions with minor keys for that reason (edit: I've read only now the post of Wogandmush, exactly).
About the expressivity, I agree with Millionrainbows and Etkearne when they say that minor keys have more harmonic possibilities (ok, there's also the harmonic major scale but I think it's very rarely used).


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## Kieran (Aug 24, 2010)

norman bates said:


> About this, I've read articles that say that when we speak we tend to use the minor third to communicate sadness. So it is possible that we associate negative emotions with minor keys for that reason (edit: I've read only now the post of Wogandmush, exactly).
> About the expressivity, I agree with Millionrainbows and Etkearne when they say that minor keys have more harmonic possibilities (ok, there's also the harmonic major scale but I think it's very rarely used).


That's interesting, Norman, thanks. All the replies here have been very informative and helpful for my understanding...


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

Kieran said:


> Also, why did the classical composers neglect the minor keys, where the Romantic composers saturated the minor-key market?


In the Baroque and Romantic Eras music was thought to have direct links to human emotion - in the Baroque the task of the composer was to evoke it in the manner of an orator, in the Romantic, to express it from within. In the Classical Era, on the other hand, the dominant aesthetic system was the imitative theory, according to which the purpose of the arts is to imitate important aspects of human experience. Music was considered the lowliest in the pantheon of the arts in this era because it putatively had no appreciable capacity for imitation ('Well, we can do cuckoos and babbling brooks and if we hit this drum really hard it sounds like a cannon; How's that?"). In short, music was thought to be a purely sensuous pleasure, a meaningless tickling of the ear, not much more elevated than a good meal or a warm bath. The link to emotion, or at least, strong emotion, was severed. This is why Haydn had to wear livery and had the social status of a cook for most of his life. Given this aesthetic theory, music in the minor mode stood out as only a heavier, less pleasant form of ear tickling, and was therefore discouraged and avoided. For example, when Haydn wrote several stormy symphonies in the minor mode during the 1770s, Prince Esterhazy requested that he stop doing so and instead write lighter, more pleasant music.



Kieran said:


> What is it about the minor keys than turn music towards gloom, introspection, melancholia, tragedy? And are similar effects possible by staying only in the major key?


One explanation that hasn't appeared yet in this thread is that the semitone intervals (half steps) in the minor mode exert more downward pressure than those in the major mode, and once the falling begins, there is more likelihood that the descent will continue in a natural way. In the minor mode, the flatted sixth degree has a strong tendency to fall to the fifth, which in turn wants to fall to the tonic. Likewise the third degree falling to the second has a natural tendency to fall all the way through to the tonic. The seventh scale degree in major, on the other hand, wants to rise to the tonic pitch. It is buoyant. A fall from the tonic down to the seventh degree is therefore not likely to become a continuing downward slide, since 7 naturally wants to go back up. Likewise, the third degree in major has more tendency to ascend than to descend. In sum: the minor mode has more gravity (downward pressure), the major mode is relatively buoyant. The metaphorical implications for emotion are obvious and natural; Eventually they became conventional as well.


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## Tristan (Jan 5, 2013)

I find music that has a mix of major and minor to be the most expressive, like "Le Jardin Feerique" by Ravel.


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## Guest (Dec 2, 2013)

StlukesguildOhio said:


> It's not. That's like saying blue is more expressive than red.


Sheesh. Be off the interwebs for a coupla days, and someone else gets in with your answer before you do.

Anyway, that's my answer. It's not. That's like saying blue is more expressive than red.

I'll only add, just to make it my own for reals, that I would also ask, "expressive of what?"


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## Guest (Dec 2, 2013)

norman bates said:


> About this, I've read articles that say that when we speak we tend to use the minor third to communicate sadness.


I've read articles that say blacks are genetically inferior to whites.

I've read articles that say that females are intellectually inferior to males.

There are lots of articles out there. Some of them worthwhile. Some of them not.


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## Aramis (Mar 1, 2009)

some guy said:


> I've read articles that say that females are intellectually inferior to males.


Haha! Such a stupid article, it had to be written by woman!


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

Copperears said:


> Hmm, this all makes me hungry for good Byzantine historical fiction, any recommendations?


Dorothy Dunnett; _The House of Niccolò_ ~ a series of eight books, very well researched, well written and very engaging.

Though it is set in the Renaissance, book II, _The Spring of the Ram_, is set largely in Trebizond in 1461.


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## Kieran (Aug 24, 2010)

Thanks Edward, great stuff!


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## Copperears (Nov 10, 2013)

PetrB said:


> Dorothy Dunnett; _The House of Niccolò_ ~ a series of eight books, very well researched, well written and very engaging.
> 
> Though it is set in the Renaissance, book II, _The Spring of the Ram_, is set largely in Trebizond in 1461.


Thanks! And yes, Edward and all, lots of excellent thought-provoking replies here.


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## samurai (Apr 22, 2011)

Is the question whether or not music written in minor keys is better able to convey feelings of sadness and despair more effectively than that done in major keys, or that it is--in general--more expressive? As some guy so aptly noted, "expressive of what?"


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

samurai said:


> Is the question whether or not music written in minor keys is better able to convey feelings of sadness and despair more effectively than that done in major keys, or that it is--in general--more expressive? As some guy so aptly noted, "expressive of what?"


Two pieces commonly associated with grief and sadness -- the Cavatina from Beethoven's Op. 130 Quartet and Barber's Adagio -- seem to be written mostly in the major.


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

some guy said:


> I've read articles that say blacks are genetically inferior to whites.
> 
> I've read articles that say that females are intellectually inferior to males.


well, probably not on Scientific American.

http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/observations/2010/06/17/music-and-speech-share-a-code-for-c-2010-06-17/

And I know that you resist the idea the music has anything to do with language, but SA is not exactly a magazine where you can find something without solid and serious studies.



Kieran said:


> That's interesting, Norman, thanks. All the replies here have been very informative and helpful for my understanding...


anyway, I'm not sure that the expression I would use is "more expressive". But with minor keys I think (if I'm correct, and I'm not sure) you have more harmonic choices, because there are more scales.


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## shangoyal (Sep 22, 2013)

Yes, with the recent examples from KenOC, the popular theory about minor scales sounds like hogwash to me now.


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

StlukesguildOhio said:


> It's not. That's like saying blue is more expressive than red.


Ah, but what if, in a given era, paintings in which reddish hues predominate were eight times as common as those in which blue is the pervasive hue? In such a case, might blue not attain a certain significance or expressive intensity by virtue of its relative rarity alone, as opposed to red, which would perhaps come to be seen as more or less neutral because it is everywhere? (That eight to one ratio is probably a good approximation of the relative frequency of large-genre instrumental works in the major mode versus those in the minor mode in the Classical Era.) Robert Hatten, in his _Musical Meaning in Beethoven_, made precisely this argument, claiming that, in the Classical Era, the minor mode is "marked" in the semiological sense whereas the major mode is "unmarked" or neutral. He believes that classical works in the minor mode are, therefore, marked as expressively "tragic," whereas those in the major mode are, by contrast, only neutral or non-tragic. I think he overstates the case by using the term tragic, but he has a good point nonetheless.


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## Guest (Dec 2, 2013)

norman bates said:


> And I know that you resist the idea the music has anything to do with language


I do not.

I think, for instance, that there are so many parallels that one could almost say that language is a kind of music. I do not think that music is a kind of language, however, as music has no grammar. And little or no denotation. Any argument for music being a language are based entirely on metaphors--on taking metaphors as literal. Well, metaphors are not literal. They are figurative.

Language literally does have many musical qualities. Music literally has few if any linguistic qualities.


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

some guy said:


> I do not.
> 
> I think, for instance, that there are so many parallels that one could almost say that language is a kind of music. I do not think that music is a kind of language, however, as music has no grammar. And little or no denotation. Any argument for music being a language are based entirely on metaphors--on taking metaphors as literal. Well, metaphors are not literal. They are figurative.
> 
> Language literally does have many musical qualities. Music literally has few if any linguistic qualities.


It seems to me that the fact that a minor third is something that we unconciously relate to sadness is something very similar to a grammar. There are other elements like the fact that our heart tend to accelerate or decelerate according to the speed of the music, causing relax or excitement, or that we associate high volumes with fear for instance (animals use high volumes when they want to intimidate). And yes, language has musical qualities because music as verbal language is communication exactly for those reasons.


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## Guest (Dec 3, 2013)

norman bates said:


> It seems to me that the fact that a minor third is something that we unconciously relate to sadness is something very similar to a grammar.


Then you simply do not know what grammar is.

And a minor third is not something I relate to sadness, unconsciously or not. So no "fact" there. Not for me, anyway. All sorts of things can make me sad, at different times. The end of Stravinsky's _Les Noces,_ for instance. Because the music is inherently sad or minor or anything? No. Because the music at the end is _at the end._ And I don't want the piece to be over yet.

And, for a different kind of sadness, every time Schubert modulates to a major key at the end of a piece.


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## dgee (Sep 26, 2013)

Barber Adagio is predominantly in B flat minor and sounds very minor key throughout - just whistle that start to yourself to catch the flat third and sixth. 

The general debate of expressiveness all sounds a bit sturm und drang period to me - post that time seems to me composers were perfectly happy being expressive (or not) in whatever key, tonality or lack thereof they chose


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

some guy said:


> Then you simply do not know what grammar is.
> 
> And a minor third is not something I relate to sadness, unconsciously or not.


We both know that you are (or behave like) you're the greatest exception in human history, if we're talking of reactions of music.  
But seriously, do you want to argue that (at least) in the western world usually people relate the minor third to sadness? Even the simple fact that there are a lot of threads on this argument like this one, what you think that it means?


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## Copperears (Nov 10, 2013)

I think it means there are a lot of musically illiterate people out there who take trained arbitrary cultural habits as absolutes.

You know, the way they used to think the earth was flat.....


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## mtmailey (Oct 21, 2011)

The minor/major stuff is lame to me to me is how the music sounds.UNDERSTAND IF THE MUSIC SOUNDS BAD IT WILL NOT DO WELL.


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## Aramis (Mar 1, 2009)

Copperears said:


> You know, the way they used to think the earth was flat.....


Earth is a flat. For us, humans, and many other species!


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## Roi N (Oct 22, 2013)

Minor isn't more expressive than Major. None of them are actually _meant_ to express anything. It's music, not poetry. The essence of music is to be understood - not to be interpreted.


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## albrecht (May 29, 2014)

I would say that it would depend on how they are used..


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