# Glenn Gould - How Mozart Became a Bad Composer



## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

At around 22:20 of the video, Gould calls Mozart's early sonatas, concertos, symphonies incredible in their inventiveness, and says that he loves them. I don't think Gould really "hated" Mozart as some people today claim. It seems that he only didn't like what he perceived as "mannerisms and banality" in late Mozart, contrary to the claims of some people who try to make it seem like he hated Mozart's entire oeuvre.
In this respect, he's kind of like the critic David C F Wright, who said "there is probably no greater composer than Beethoven", but still had certain reservations for his late works.






Likewise in other composers, he had strong personal opinions on what he liked or disliked :

"I personally think that a lot of of the fugues in the Well tempered clavier are better off without their attending preludes and vice-versa." 




"I don't ever expect to persuade you of the pomposity of the fifth symphony, or the banality of the violin concerto or the empty rhetoric of the Appassionata sonata" 




"'a monstrosity,' the harmony 'wanders all over the lot'" (on Bach's chromatic fantasie)





"For me, the 'Grosse Fuge' is not only the greatest work Beethoven ever wrote but just about the most astonishing piece in musical literature."


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Let's face it, Gould was a nutcase. He lost too many opportunities of keeping his mouth shut. Sadly he made a complete fool of himself by much of what he said. His comments on the Appassionata are a case in point as is his performance. If he didn't like it he shouldn't have played it.


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## trazom (Apr 13, 2009)

Interesting self-refutation: Gould lauds the superiority of Mozart's early works and then cites as one of his favorite pieces an example of that, a late sonata written around the time of Mozart's Linz symphony.


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## Xisten267 (Sep 2, 2018)

hammeredklavier said:


> At around 22:20 of the video, Gould calls Mozart's early sonatas, concertos, symphonies incredible in their inventiveness, and says that he loves them. I don't think Gould really "hated" Mozart as some people today claim. It seems that he only didn't like what he perceived as "mannerisms and banality" in late Mozart, contrary to the claims of some people who try to make it seem like he hated Mozart's entire oeuvre.


I didn't see the video, but considering what you wrote and Gould's famous (and awful) comment that "Mozart died too late rather than too early", I suppose the he must have been a hater of the composer's late music.


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## Clairvoyance Enough (Jul 25, 2014)

While I've never agreed overall with Gould on late Mozart, I relate to some of his descriptions here. I do find myself getting bored with what seems like bland noodling over repetitive, predictable sequencs at several points in the piano concertos, in a style that does, as he points out, seem like a simulation of stalling techniques for improvisers. Having read this forum for several years now, some of his criticisms are not uncommon even on here. Like most I think he goes too far implying that the concertos are outright mediocre, but I also think the jist of his opinion is well explained and not totally rare. I entirely disagree with his opinion on the Appassionata, but it's not hard for me to imagine why someone would dislike it for the reasons he gives. I feel that way about most of his infamous takes.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

Allerius said:


> I didn't see the video, but considering what you wrote and Gould's famous (and awful) comment that "Mozart died too late rather than too early", I suppose the he must have been a hater of the composer's late music.


Sure. But Gould said he liked Mozart's fugues (in the second video I posted). By the way he talks in that video, I don't think Gould was aware of Mozart's contrapuntal works from his Salzburg period. I'm not sure what he would have thought of them, had he knew them.





*VIII. Pignus [24:04]*


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

Clairvoyance Enough said:


> While I've never agreed overall with Gould on late Mozart, I relate to some of his descriptions here. I do find myself getting bored with what seems like bland noodling over repetitive, predictable sequencs at several points in the piano concertos, in a style that does, as he points out, seem like a simulation of stalling techniques for improvisers.


Yeah, I heard that Mozart wrote his piano concertos whenever he couldn't get good librettos for writing an opera, and they're essentially "operas without words", (they're like "pot-boilers" in some ways, written for use in his own subscription concerts. In some parts of K.537, for example, he didn't even write out the solo part in full). But Gould also said (in the second video I posted) that he admired the "angularity" and "sternness" (which I interpret as "chromaticism" and "contrapuntal prowess") of K.426/K.546. Btw, I think that a lot of Mozart enthusiasts tend to only appreciate his more well-known stuff like piano concertos and neglect his more obscure, underrated stuff.


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## trazom (Apr 13, 2009)

hammeredklavier said:


> Yeah, I heard that Mozart wrote his piano concertos whenever he couldn't get good librettos for writing an opera, and they're essentially "operas without words", (they're like *"pot-boilers"* in some ways, written for use in his own subscription concerts.


A "pot-boiler" connotes something that is deliberately written at a substandard level to achieve mass appeal, ie, hackwork.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

trazom said:


> A "pot-boiler" connotes something that is deliberately written at a substandard level to achieve mass appeal, ie, hackwork.


Well if Mozart's sublime later piano concertos are 'pot boilers' what does that make the rest of classical music?


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## consuono (Mar 27, 2020)

I think the last 10 or 12 piano concertos are absolutely glorious masterpieces, regardless of what Gould or anyone else says. Heck, the ones that preceded that last 10 or 12 may be also. I just haven't paid enough attention to them. I don't really hate Mozart's piano sonatas; I just think they're a weaker segment of his whole output. Had he lived longer he may have paid more attention to that form. But also I think it's clear that Mozart's solo piano music is a harbinger of Chopin's (another composer Gould didn't like).


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## consuono (Mar 27, 2020)

PS...I think Gould was right about the Appasionata sonata. That was apparently one of Beethoven's favorites but it's one of my least favorite among his sonatas. On the other hand why did Gould record it if he didn't like it? Trolling? :lol: That's what a lot of Gould's opinions sound like. Just being deliberately provocative.
(edit)...further PPS:
About this:


> "'a monstrosity,' the harmony 'wanders all over the lot'" (on Bach's chromatic fantasie)


Just spitballing here, but maybe that's what Bach had in mind?



> "For me, the 'Grosse Fuge' is not only the greatest work Beethoven ever wrote but just about the most astonishing piece in musical literature."


 I disagree. I could never get the Grosse Fuge. I'm sure that structurally it's a marvel, but on the practical level to me it's a lot of intermittent galloping patterns that go on for too long.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

consuono said:


> I don't really hate Mozart's piano sonatas; I just think they're a weaker segment of his whole output. Had he lived longer he may have paid more attention to that form. But also I think it's clear that Mozart's solo piano music is a harbinger of Chopin's (another composer Gould didn't like).


I think Mozart would have put more effort into creating miscellaneous keyboard pieces, (ones like K.511, K.540, K.608) even if he lived longer. I just can't imagine Mozart writing ambitious 40-minute long sonatas with big gestures like later composers would. Long ago, I read from the notes of the recording of Brendel's performance of Mozart K.511, K.265, K.396, etc that it wasn't until Beethoven composers started to seriously take the piano sonata genre as a 'vehicle for experiment'. 
But still I like the direction Mozart was heading towards with his piano sonatas in his late years. Especially K.533 and its glorious contrapuntal first movement, and the slow movement, which, as I said, points toward Wagner. 
I also like the use of dissonance in this:

*[ 0:54 ]
[ 3:33 ]
[ 7:42 ]*


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## consuono (Mar 27, 2020)

^ Yeah, no matter how many times I hear it or play it I always find the A minor Rondo amazing.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

consuono said:


> PS...I think Gould was right about the Appasionata sonata. That was apparently one of Beethoven's favorites but it's one of my least favorite among his sonatas. On the other hand why did Gould record it if he didn't like it? Trolling? :lol: That's what a lot of Gould's opinions sound like. Just being deliberately provocative.
> (edit)...further PPS:
> About this:
> Just spitballing here, but maybe that's what Bach had in mind?
> ...


If you listen to Gould's terrible performance of the appassionato sonata I'm not surprised you don't like it. Go to Richter


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

consuono said:


> it's a lot of intermittent galloping patterns that go on for too long.


Grosse fuge is pretty epic though, with clearly delineating sections of pain, uncertainty, joy, and final consolation. It also reminds me little bits of the 9th symphony scherzo, and the serioso quartet 1st movement, which I think are also epic.


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