# Frank Zappa - similar contemporary composers



## FPwtc (Dec 3, 2014)

Happy new year!

I have been listening to some of FZ's classical work and really enjoy it. While I know he was influenced by Edgard Varèse, Stravinsky and Bartok I have not been able to find much information about composers contemporaneous with his career who he admire in the classical world?

Can anyone recommend any composers making modern classical that he admired or any composers that make similar music to Frank's own classical compositions?


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

on Freak out he wrote _"these people have contributed materially in many ways to make our music what it is. Please do not hold it against them_" and then he mentioned a lot of different persons and between them there are some classical composers:

Maurice Ravel
Arnold Schoenberg
Alois Haba
Leo Ornstein
Cecil Forsyth
Mauricio Kagel
Vincent Persichetti
Luigi Nono
Pierre Boulez
Anton Webern
Igor Stravinsky
Edgar Varese
Karlheinz Stockhausen
Charles Ives
Roger Sessions
Bulent Arel
John Tasker Howard
Silvestre Revueltas
Jack Tillar

I remember he was also influenced by Nicolas Slonimsky and his thesaurus


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## rrudolph (Sep 15, 2011)

You may find this interesting:

http://www.allmusic.com/album/frank-zappas-classical-selection-mw0002100982


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## Crudblud (Dec 29, 2011)

Among 20th century composers, in addition to those you listed, he had kind things to say about Webern, Boulez, Carter, Lachenmann, Xenakis, Ravel, Partch, Nancarrow, and Takemitsu. Worth noting that it was in fact the Ensemble Modern performing Lachenmann that convinced Zappa to use them for the Yellow Shark tour. He has also mentioned finding some works of Stockhausen (_Zeitmaße_) and Messiaen (_Chronochromie_) interesting, though was not overly positive about them in general. He also praised Penderecki's _Die Teufel von Loudon._

Outside the 20th century, he seems to have had a fondness for Wagner, Chopin, and Purcell.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

He made this Synclavier tribute to his namesake, Francesco Zappa.


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## Morimur (Jan 23, 2014)

Crudblud said:


> Among 20th century composers, in addition to those you listed, he had kind things to say about Webern, Boulez, Carter, Lachenmann, Xenakis, Ravel, Partch, Nancarrow, and Takemitsu. Worth noting that it was in fact the Ensemble Modern performing Lachenmann that convinced Zappa to use them for the Yellow Shark tour. He has also mentioned finding some works of Stockhausen (_Zeitmaße_) and Messiaen (_Chronochromie_) interesting, though was not overly positive about them in general. He also praised Penderecki's _Die Teufel von Loudon._
> 
> Outside the 20th century, he seems to have had a fondness for Wagner, Chopin, and Purcell.


I wonder if Messiaen and Stockhausen were even aware of his existence.


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## Crudblud (Dec 29, 2011)

Morimur said:


> I wonder if Messiaen and Stockhausen were even aware of his existence.


Does it matter if someone is aware of someone else who said something about them and/or their work once?


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## Albert7 (Nov 16, 2014)

Anyone can recommend a good album to start listening to Zappa? I know nothing of his works.


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## Crudblud (Dec 29, 2011)

albertfallickwang said:


> Anyone can recommend a good album to start listening to Zappa? I know nothing of his works.


If you're looking for orchestra and chamber compositions _The Yellow Shark _is the best place to start, moving from there to _The Perfect Stranger_, _LSO Vols. I & II_, and _Civilization Phaze III_. For a more general overview, _Läther_ will suit your needs.


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## Morimur (Jan 23, 2014)

Crudblud said:


> Does it matter if someone is aware of someone else who said something about them and/or their work once?


I am merely curious, Crudblud -- no need to be so defensive.


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## Crudblud (Dec 29, 2011)

Morimur said:


> I am merely curious, Crudblud -- no need to be so defensive.


It looks like we got off on the wrong foot here. I read your post as a defensive one, and given the history of sneering at Zappa on this forum it didn't seem unlikely, but most of that happened before you came here. No harm done.

In any case, there is a clip of Stockhausen talking in a Zappa documentary, in which he makes some dismissive comments about the Synclavier, a MIDI computer/synthesiser which Zappa used extensively in his later years, but no comments on his compositions themselves. They apparently also met briefly and exchanged hellos, though I believe that was before Zappa became famous. As for Messiaen, it's doubtful.


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

Crudblud said:


> It looks like we got off on the wrong foot here. I read your post as a defensive one, and given the history of sneering at Zappa on this forum it didn't seem unlikely, but most of that happened before you came here. No harm done.
> 
> In any case, there is a clip of Stockhausen talking in a Zappa documentary, in which he makes some dismissive comments about the Synclavier, a MIDI computer/synthesiser which Zappa used extensively in his later years, but no comments on his compositions themselves. They apparently also met briefly and exchanged hellos, though I believe that was before Zappa became famous. As for Messiaen, it's doubtful.


The era of the mid to late 1960's and early 1970's (brief though that is) was one of a remarkable openness where many people who would normally be more 'insulated' within a community of one type or common interest were not only open to other types, but many were eagerly wanting to know what alternate people, what artists in genres other than their own, were up to, and 'what those people were about.' It is not at all unlikely that Messiaen, for example, at least had _heard_ about Zappa.

Pierre Boulez met Paul Simon at a private party in Manhattan. Simon related how Boulez got Simon's name wrong, and for the rest of the evening when they spoke, Boulez addressed Simon as "Al." -- ergo, the Paul Simon song,_ "You can call me Al."_
"The names in the song came from an incident at a party that Simon went to with his then-wife Peggy Harper. French composer and conductor Pierre Boulez, who was attending the same party, mistakenly referred to Paul as "Al" and to Peggy as "Betty", inspiring Simon to write a song." ~ Wikipedia

So, via happenstance or by desire, there were plenty of "Odd Bedfellows" in the era when Zappa was highly active in his career.

...as refreshingly delightful, say, as learning that in post WWII Hollywood, Arnold Schoenberg and George Gershwin were pals, and tennis enthusiasts both, they were also regular tennis partners.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

albertfallickwang said:


> Anyone can recommend a good album to start listening to Zappa? I know nothing of his works.


Here's a favorite of mine. It's a beautiful piece
from the Studio Tan CD.






I also love the original Bogus Pomp, from the Orchestral Favorites album.
There's a longer arrangement on the London Symphony CD, but I like
this one.






Sad Jane is a favorite from the London Symphony album.
Here's a different performance recorded live. Of course
the sound on the studio CD is much better.


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## Heliogabo (Dec 29, 2014)

Here's a young Zappa playing a... bicycle. Pure genius. Enjoy!


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

FPwtc said:


> Can anyone recommend any composers making modern classical that he admired or any composers that make similar music to Frank's own classical compositions?


I suggest listening to Alfred Schnittke's Symphony No. 1. It's got everything in it but the kitchen sink, and it's a wild ride. Of course Zappa liked to do this kind of thing too, and he was great at it. And I also read somewhere that Schnittke was aware of Zappa early on, and he heard some of the music and was a fan of what FZ was doing.


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## ahammel (Oct 10, 2012)

PetrB said:


> Pierre Boulez met Paul Simon at a private party in Manhattan. Simon related how Boulez got Simon's name wrong, and for the rest of the evening when they spoke, Boulez addressed Simon as "Al." -- ergo, the Paul Simon song,_ "You can call me Al."_


That's hilarious.


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## Heliogabo (Dec 29, 2014)

Check out the piece at minute 12:00


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## FPwtc (Dec 3, 2014)

Excellent starting point thanks!


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## FPwtc (Dec 3, 2014)

My absolute fav is Roxy & Elsewhere. It is alive album but mainly new music. It is one of his best bands and the music is a bit of everything that made him great from jazz freakouts to weird comedy (although none of his classical stuff). For his more jazzy stuff Hot Rats is a great starting point and is generally seen as the album non Zappa fans actually enjoy. It is mainly instrumental but it depends how much you like guitar riffing. The thing is he has so many albums that you can buy one and like it and then hate the next one.

For his more rocking (but still challenging stuff) get One Size Fits All. I also really like his big band jazz album called The Grand Wazoo. For his weirder stuff Uncle Meat is a series of short avant guard compositions over a double album. It looked a bit daunting at first but is actually surprisingly tuneful and is a good bridge into his classical work. As Grudblud says Yellow Shark is the best for his classical work, fiery performances and a great listen.



albertfallickwang said:


> Anyone can recommend a good album to start listening to Zappa? I know nothing of his works.


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## FPwtc (Dec 3, 2014)

I'm surprised he liked Purcell, there is a good interview I found where he says he hates classical music that was created at the behest of church or nobility, see below.

DM: So the theory that the church or the nobility helped make the Renaissance happen, or the classical period, is not true in your mind?
I think it probably held back some of the greatest composers, because you had no choice. If you wanted to write, you had to write at the behest of somebody who had more money than you. It's like dealit~ with radio-station programmers and the guy who puts your video on MTV It has to be exactly this, or it goes nowhere. So, here's a guy with 11 kids to feed, what's he going to do? Give the Prince what he wants: sings " Hallelujah Chorus":] "Hallelujah. Hallelujah." [Imitates a prince:] "Oh, yeah, I like that. I can understand that."

http://home.online.no/~corneliu/mother2.htm


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## Crudblud (Dec 29, 2011)

FPwtc said:


> I'm surprised he liked Purcell, there is a good interview I found where he says he hates classical music that was created at the behest of church or nobility, see below.


He has also said in another interview, for MTV in 1984, that he takes tapes of "Bulgarian folk music, Chopin, Purcell, Webern, Stravinsky, Howlin' Wolf" with him on tour to listen to while he's on the plane. From my research over the years, it's pretty clear to see that Zappa's tastes changed a lot and frequently throughout his life. I imagine him as the kind of person who gets bored with most stuff once he's absorbed a certain amount of it, that's probably why his interests were so varied and his career had such an unpredictable arc to it.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

Heliogabo said:


> Here's a young Zappa playing a... bicycle. Pure genius. Enjoy!


A little-known tidbit, which I've never seen anyone mention in print, or ever:

On the album *We're Only In It For The Money,* on the closing track *The Chrome-Plated Megaphone of Destiny,* the "bicyle" can be heard, closely-miked and magnificent, at 4:38.


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## rrudolph (Sep 15, 2011)

Forgot to mention that FZ also really liked the music of Conlon Nancarrow; although I have no corroborating evidence, I'm pretty sure I can hear a fairly substantial Nancarrow influence in some of the Synclavier compositions.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

rrudolph said:


> Forgot to mention that FZ also really liked the music of Conlon Nancarrow; although I have no corroborating evidence, I'm pretty sure I can hear a fairly substantial Nancarrow influence in some of the Synclavier compositions.


Yeah, I think the main reason he liked Nancarrow was the rhythmic complexity of the player-piano works.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

Crudblud said:


> He has also said in another interview, for MTV in 1984, that he takes tapes of "Bulgarian folk music, Chopin, Purcell, Webern, Stravinsky, Howlin' Wolf" with him on tour to listen to while he's on the plane. From my research over the years, it's pretty clear to see that Zappa's tastes changed a lot and frequently throughout his life. I imagine him as the kind of person who gets bored with most stuff once he's absorbed a certain amount of it, that's probably why his interests were so varied and his career had such an unpredictable arc to it.


He also said he liked sea shanties, and used to listen to them with Don Van Vliet (Captain Beefheart).

There was a TV documentary that showed him recording some Tuvan throat-singers.


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## Crudblud (Dec 29, 2011)

millionrainbows said:


> He also said he liked sea shanties, and used to listen to them with Don Van Vliet (Captain Beefheart).
> 
> There was a TV documentary that showed him recording some Tuvan throat-singers.


Huun Huur Tu. Featured on _Dio Fa_ from Act II of _Civilization Phaze III_. They also perform at Zappa's home with The Chieftains, Johnny Guitar Watson, and some Zappa alumni on a home movie from the early '90s leaked under the title _Salad Party_.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

Crudblud said:


> Huun Huur Tu. Featured on _Dio Fa_ from Act II of _Civilization Phaze III_. They also perform at Zappa's home with The Chieftains, Johnny Guitar Watson, and some Zappa alumni on a home movie from the early '90s leaked under the title _Salad Party_.


Wow, you're up on Zappa! I freaked out when I heard a piece from Civilization Phaze III, originally done with samples, performed with real acoustic instruments by that Renaissance ensemble.


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## Crudblud (Dec 29, 2011)

millionrainbows said:


> Wow, you're up on Zappa! I freaked out when I heard a piece from Civilization Phaze III, originally done with samples, performed with real acoustic instruments by that Renaissance ensemble.


Well, I am (very slowly) writing a book on the guy and his work, if I didn't do my research I'd be worse than the people who've already written books about him.

I'm not aware of a Renaissance ensemble performing his works, you might be thinking of Ensemble Ambrosius, the Baroque ensemble? Their Zappa arrangements are very good, but I have not come across any selections from CPIII in their repertoire, they do have some fine recordings of pieces from _Jazz From Hell_, however. The Yellow Shark orchestra, Ensemble Modern, recorded Ali N. Askin's arrangement of _Put a Motor in Yourself_, which is excellent, on their 2003 release _Greggery Peccary and Other Persuasions_.

As an aside, back in 2008 I was fortunate enough to visit the Huddersfield Contemporary Music Festival for the last two nights. The first of these was an all-Zappa concert arranged and performed by the Ascolta Ensemble, which featured an as yet unreleased Synclavier piece called _Theme from Uncle Sam_, performed as a hybrid of live acoustic and electric instruments plus a tape, which played the "impossible" sections. It's a shame to think there's probably a bunch of substantial and ready-to-go Synclavier works that might never get released on disc.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

Crudblud said:


> ...The Yellow Shark orchestra, Ensemble Modern, recorded Ali N. Askin's arrangement of _Put a Motor in Yourself_, which is excellent, on their 2003 release _Greggery Peccary and Other Persuasions_.


That must be the one I'm thinking of, with the plucked-string arpeggios of those impossible chords. Never heard anything like it, speaking harmonically.


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## Crudblud (Dec 29, 2011)

millionrainbows said:


> That must be the one I'm thinking of, with the plucked-string arpeggios of those impossible chords. Never heard anything like it, speaking harmonically.


This one?






It's a great recording. Askin was of course working under Zappa's supervision when he made those arrangements, and it shows in how pitch perfect the piece is captured, yet it is rather a different beast to the Synclavier original.

By the way, you might find this interesting as a fellow fan of Zappa's Synclavier works.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

Crudblud said:


> This one?...It's a great recording. Askin was of course working under Zappa's supervision when he made those arrangements, and it shows in how pitch perfect the piece is captured, yet it is rather a different beast to the Synclavier original.


No, that's not it. I'll have to go home and dig it up. I'll post on it tomorrow. Thanks for that link.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

Crud, the piece I referred to is *A Pig with Wings,* which is indeed on the Ensemble Modern CD. It's a great CD.


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## EddieRUKiddingVarese (Jan 8, 2013)

Crudblud said:


> This one?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Cool nice to hear, reminds me that I must listen to Civilization Phaze III again............


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

I just got this on the FZ for President CD. Not sure what inspired this collection of material? A few synclacier pieces, and some live material from 1988, and 1969. A budget priced CD clocking in at around 45 minutes or so.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

starthrower said:


> Here's a favorite of mine. It's a beautiful piece
> from the Studio Tan CD.
> 
> 
> ...


Don't know what happened to those links? Here's new uploads.


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## EddieRUKiddingVarese (Jan 8, 2013)

Cool thanks, I've got Vol 2 LSO on vinyl but have not got Vol 1- have been looking but not come across it yet in 2nd hand shops.


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## Casebearer (Jan 19, 2016)

EddieRUKiddingVarese said:


> Cool nice to hear, reminds me that I must listen to Civilization Phaze III again............


You should! It's the most interesting stuff he ever made in my opinion.


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