# Annual Ring cycle, a modest proposal



## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

An annual Ring cycle in the US? There's a catch -- it would use a digital orchestra. The idea is spawning some fairly vigorous controversy, even threats.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/06/12/a...opera-purists-take-and-play-offense.html?_r=0


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## Posie (Aug 18, 2013)

If by electronic, they mean synthesized, then EWW no.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Much nonsense has been written about this. The arguments are mainly economic in that it is impossible for a small company to put The Ring on with 100 orchestral musicians. The anti-side is driven by fear the unions have that if this catches on they'll be out of work. They have a point. But we must ask if it is right for threats and blackmail to be used to inhibit young singers. Of course not! 
Obviously no digital performance could do full justice to The Ring or any opera. But let's not be highbrow about it!


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## amfortas (Jun 15, 2011)

Yes, the threats go way too far. If they want to give the idea a try, more power to them. That said, I'm skeptical about the quality of such a doctored performance--can it really approach the expressiveness of a live orchestra?


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

"Mir schaudert das Herz, es schwindelt mein Hirn!" - Fricka

And a long, deep, agonized moan rises from the grave of Wilhelm Furtwangler.


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

KenOC said:


> An annual Ring cycle in the US? There's a catch -- it would use a digital orchestra. The idea is spawning some fairly vigorous controversy, even threats.
> 
> http://www.nytimes.com/2014/06/12/a...opera-purists-take-and-play-offense.html?_r=0


Tsk, Tsk, with ca. between two weeks to one month of rehearsal time, plus the performances, you are proposing putting a goodly number of union musicians out of a seriously good gig.

Instead, I propose a Ring Cycle annual contest -- digital orchestra, digital sets, digital costumes, digital singers. -- digital lump of gold, digital dwarves, digital fire, digital dragon, digital flood -- the whole damned digital everything, all approximately sixteen plus hours of it 

The mind boggles at the amount of required midi inputting alone....


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## peterb (Mar 7, 2014)

I think it's a brilliant way of kicking down the doors and making the art form more accessible, more affordable, and less pretentious. Would I go see that production? I don't know. It probably would depend on what else I had going on that week. Of course, I'd _rather_ see a 'real' production. But from the 50,000 foot perspective, anything that disrupts opera's self-harming addiction to its traditions is something that is healthy for the art form as a whole.


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## Don Fatale (Aug 31, 2009)

peterb, I couldn't have put it better. And similarly, more 2 day Rings should be considered. Wagner's music is truly great and giving more people a chance to enjoy it surely has to be good.


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## dgee (Sep 26, 2013)

KenOC said:


> An annual Ring cycle in the US? There's a catch -- it would use a digital orchestra. The idea is spawning some fairly vigorous controversy, even threats.
> 
> http://www.nytimes.com/2014/06/12/a...opera-purists-take-and-play-offense.html?_r=0


Why not just semi stage? Then you get the music (!!!!) without the half-pie boring crud staging that sucks up cost?

Seriously, why suck up cost on the least compelling thing about opera? Semi-staging is the way of the future - you can get operas done that skirt clutching opera house boards otherwise wouldn't countenance. We've had semi staged Parsifal, Bluebeard, Katya Kabanova and Cunning Little Vixen around my neck of the woods and all were wonderful and the profit calcs worked out (and, through my good grapevines, plans for L'enfant et les sortilege, Wozzeck and Pelleas other goodies a terminally provincial opera house wouldn't touch much to their detriment are in the works)


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## Don Fatale (Aug 31, 2009)

The single most important thing for a good night of opera is excellent singers. Whilst it's grand to have the total gasumpthingy, if I were to bring opera to new audiences, I'd start with the best singers I could lay my hands on.


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

If costs must be cut, replacing sets with virtual sets via projections could be _very_ effective, lending only an air of magic to the scene. Replacing instruments with virtual ones is to lessen the _visceral aural impact_ of a live performance far too much, I think. Current technologies, projections, laser toys, etc. creating the stage scenes could be truly spectacular (and inject a blast of fresh air into opera productions.)

I think it is safe to bet that all hands involved in building sets, maneuvering them (at union scale) comes to about or more than the amount for the full orchestra, and a 'magic' set would go much further to _enhance_ vs. detract.


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## Spectrum (Mar 12, 2009)

peterb said:


> I think it's a brilliant way of kicking down the doors and making the art form more accessible, more affordable, and less pretentious. Would I go see that production? I don't know. It probably would depend on what else I had going on that week. Of course, I'd _rather_ see a 'real' production. But from the 50,000 foot perspective, anything that disrupts opera's self-harming addiction to its traditions is something that is healthy for the art form as a whole.


I agree with this.

As a fan of technology, I wholeheartedly approve of the digital orchestra idea. Moreover, I feel confident that it is coming, whether the musicians like it or not. Sure, if the musicians' unions work hard at it, they can probably delay it for another decade, but they cannot halt the progress of technology forever.

I suppose musicians had similar qualms back when recorded music appeared on the market. This always happens. University lecturers likewise feared for their daily bread back when printed books became available. Their profession did not vanish. Neither will the profession of orchestra musicians.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

From the NYT: “The effort to bring Wagner’s Ring cycle to Connecticut with digital samples instead of a traditional orchestra has been postponed. Organizers announced Monday that they were canceling their first offering, a production of Das Rheingold planned for August, saying that several artists had withdrawn, citing threats to their careers.”


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

Alexander said:


> The single most important thing for a good night of opera is excellent singers. Whilst it's grand to have the total gasumpthingy, if I were to bring opera to new audiences, I'd start with the best singers I could lay my hands on.


Except it's Wagner and the orchestral playing is SUCH an important part of the pleasure.


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## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

> Originally Posted by Alexander
> 
> The single most important thing for a good night of opera is excellent singers. Whilst it's grand to have the total gasumpthingy, if I were to bring opera to new audiences, I'd start with the best singers I could lay my hands on.
> 
> mamascarlatti: Except it's Wagner and the orchestral playing is SUCH an important part of the pleasure.


I think that's a good point: I could see a Wagner opera with sub-optimal singers ; but never a Verdi opera with them--- because of the heady orchestrations Wagner brings to the table, of course.


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## Don Fatale (Aug 31, 2009)

I agree with the responses to my point, but I think the point about using a recorded orchestra is... 1) it's a good performance/recording, 2) the reproduction equipment is of high quality. From what I've read, the idea is that there are multiple speakers and careful positioning in order to create a superior sonic experience.

I temper these comments with my view that being in the presence of a great Wagnerian orchestra is pretty close to nirvana.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

mamascarlatti said:


> Except it's Wagner and the orchestral playing is SUCH an important part of the pleasure.


This is certainly true. That's why if you ever see the Ring at the Met, or Bayreuth, the conductor and orchestra usually get out-bravoed more than the singers, at the end, assuming it was a good job of course!


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Marschallin Blair said:


> I think that's a good point: I could see a Wagner opera with sub-optimal singers ; but never a Verdi opera with them--- because of the heady orchestrations Wagner brings to the table, of course.


Don't worry. The singers are bound to be sub-optimal. For Wagner, at least, there aren't enough of the other kind to go around, even in the major houses.

Sub-optimal singers and a virtual orchestra... Who really needs this? Isn't the _Ring_ hard enough to realize even under optimal conditions?


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

Opera must become digital and amplified or it will die. Die die die die die.


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## Morimur (Jan 23, 2014)

Couchie said:


> Opera must become digital and amplified or it will die. Die die die die die.


Can you expand?


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## Spectrum (Mar 12, 2009)

Woodduck said:


> Sub-optimal singers and a virtual orchestra... Who really needs this?


Who needs this? Companies and performers who dream of staging the Ring but don't have a huge budget. That's who.



Woodduck said:


> Isn't the _Ring_ hard enough to realize even under optimal conditions?


What is your point? That it should be forbidden to try to perform it under sub-optimal conditions?


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

Lope de Aguirre said:


> Can you expand?


We live in the digital era. Do you take horse and buggy to visit your aunt?


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## Morimur (Jan 23, 2014)

Couchie said:


> We live in the digital era. Do you take horse and buggy to visit your aunt?


Occasionally.xxxxxxxxxxx


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## dgee (Sep 26, 2013)

Sound aside, there is extremely limited ability to shape the performance for anyone involved. The conductor is reduced to providing cues for the stage, the singers are doing karaoke, the digital recording rules the day!! Why not just buy the rights to show some DVDs in HD sound?


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Spectrum said:


> Who needs this? Companies and performers who dream of staging the Ring but don't have a huge budget. That's who.
> 
> What is your point? That it should be forbidden to try to perform it under sub-optimal conditions?


Dreaming of doing something and being able to do it properly or competently are hardly the same thing. If I have just enough voice to sing Rodolfo, I don't insist on singing Otello just because I dream of doing so. This is less out of a fear of embarrassment than out of respect for Verdi.

Who spoke of forbidding? Those who feel the need to mangle or diminish great works of art are free to do it. They exercise that freedom all the time. And those who don't know the difference, or don't care, are free to patronize their efforts, and they exercise their freedom too.

Wagner's operas are extremely challenging to stage, sing, and conduct. It's almost inevitable that some aspect of a performance will be sub-optimal. It's just a matter of how much sub-optimalness one regards as tolerable, and at what point one thinks it violates the work in question. Perhaps your tolerance is greater than mine, though I would doubt that it's unlimited.

If a small opera company with a small budget using computer-generated music can do justice to _The Ring _, more power to them. I very much doubt it. In any case I'll wait for the reviews.


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## Spectrum (Mar 12, 2009)

Woodduck said:


> Dreaming of doing something and being able to do it properly or competently are hardly the same thing. If I have just enough voice to sing Rodolfo, I don't insist on singing Otello just because I dream of doing so. This is less out of a fear of embarrassment than out of respect for Verdi.
> 
> Who spoke of forbidding?


Who spoke of forbidding? Those musicians quoted in the article, who tried to prevent the digital Ring from being staged.

As far as I understand from your post, you are saying that you think a digital Ring would be bad, but you would not try to prevent it from happening if you could. Good.  Then I apologize for having accused you of it.


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