# Three Gs and an E flat



## JeffD (May 8, 2017)

Such a simple theme carried out in just about every motif of that damned symphony.

Are there other examples of a complex pieces based on a similarly very short rhythmic or melodic theme?

Point me in the direction!


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## arnerich (Aug 19, 2016)

The first movement of Beethoven's sixth symphony comes to mind, so does the sorcerer's apprentice by Dukas.

I've utilized that kind of motivic development in my own compositions. My 2nd Sonata-Fantasie for piano is built mostly from a whole step up, a perfect fourth down and whole step back and forth below that.


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## brianvds (May 1, 2013)

JeffD said:


> Such a simple theme carried out in just about every motif of that damned symphony.
> 
> Are there other examples of a complex pieces based on a similarly very short rhythmic or melodic theme?
> 
> Point me in the direction!


One of the things that make B's music so fascinating is how such simple motifs will occur over and over in a movement, without getting boring. Take those soft tympani taps at the beginning of the violin concerto. That's about as simple an idea as you get, and that little motif just keeps on recurring over and over and over. I don't know how many times; one should really go count them.

Perhaps that is why even his extended movements tend to hang together so well, and never give the impression of just rambling on and on.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Such examples abound in music of that period. I've read that Mozart wrote all his piano concertos using just 12 notes and their octaves! Amazing, for sure.


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## SuperTonic (Jun 3, 2010)

Shostakovich's use of the DSCH motive which appears in several of his works. Most prominently in the 8th String Quartet, where it appears frequently in all 5 movements.

Also, in Dvorak's New World Symphony, the "long short short long" rhythm that makes up the first main theme of the first movement appears in all of the other movements as well.


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## Omicron9 (Oct 13, 2016)

The opening of Bartok's first string quartet begins with a simple two-note theme. On this theme, he proceeds to build vast, complex, beautiful structures. One of my favorites, along with his complete output for string quartet.

-09


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## Gordontrek (Jun 22, 2012)

The B-A-C-H motif comes to mind. Used by Bach himself, of course, and by many others in later years.


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## Botschaft (Aug 4, 2017)




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## Ingélou (Feb 10, 2013)

Holst's 'Saturn - The Bringer of Old Age' comes to mind.

*'Saturn, the Bringer of Old Age, was Holst's favorite. A slow, repeated two-note pattern sounded first by flutes and harps reminds the listener of relentless time. Yet the pattern is not plodding; Holst adds emphasis to each pulse by setting them on the off-beats of two and four in the 4/4 meter. The inexorable procession leads to a broad climax with clanging bells reminiscent of a tolling clock or church chime. Yet peace is made with time: the movement subsides in quiet harmony with the now-distant bell.'*

quoted from: http://www.redwoodsymphony.org/history/prognotes.aspx?ID=133

I think it's *very effective* - 
a) aesthetically and thematically
and 
b) practically: my oldest brother (aged 16) bought Sir Adrian Boult's LP after hearing Jupiter & Mars played on Children's Favourites on the radio, but didn't like the other pieces. Specifically, he said -* 'Saturn, the bringer of old age? It makes you old, listening to it!'* He sold it on to me, and I enjoyed playing it throughout my teens.


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## Vasks (Dec 9, 2013)

The last movement of Schubert's Symphony #9 has a motif of four soft repeated notes that by the end are played powerfully.


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## MarkW (Feb 16, 2015)

Gordontrek said:


> The B-A-C-H motif comes to mind. Used by Bach himself, of course, and by many others in later years.


Which has to be the world's ugliest theme.


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## MarkW (Feb 16, 2015)

Brahms and Mahler are full of obsessively used and transformed motives. Note how little basic material is used in the 30-minute
Der Abschied movement in Das Lied von der Erde.

Liszt's b-minor Sonata.

Wagner's endless use of the same leitmotives in The Ring.


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## CypressWillow (Apr 2, 2013)

Schumann, Carnaval, subtitled Little Themes on Four Notes - ASCH and variations.


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## CypressWillow (Apr 2, 2013)

JeffD said:


> Such a simple theme carried out in just about every motif of that damned symphony.
> 
> Are there other examples of a complex pieces based on a similarly very short rhythmic or melodic theme?
> 
> Point me in the direction!


Great idea for a thread, by the way. Thanks for this.


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## manyene (Feb 7, 2015)

The four note main theme of the Jupiter symphony finale - used several times by Mozart in other works.


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## eugeneonagain (May 14, 2017)

arnerich said:


> The first movement of Beethoven's sixth symphony comes to mind, so does the sorcerer's apprentice by Dukas.
> 
> I've utilized that kind of motivic development in my own compositions. My 2nd Sonata-Fantasie for piano is built mostly from a whole step up, a perfect fourth down and whole step back and forth below that.


I just listened through this. It's great. It's no slur on your own style to say that it has a touch of Scriabin about it.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Vasks said:


> The last movement of Schubert's Symphony #9 has a motif of four soft repeated notes that by the end are played powerfully.


One of my favorites. The four repeated notes start out as the first part of the subsidiary theme (I think) and are utterly trivial and inoffensive. At first. By the end of the movement, they're like the hammer-blows of the Gods. This is why Schubert is a great composer and others -- well -- aren't.

Unfortunately, the falling four-note arpeggio that closes the movement always calls to mind the childhood singing phrase, "My dog has fleas." Kind of damages the dignity of the occasion. Herr Schubert really should have been more careful about that.


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## R3PL4Y (Jan 21, 2016)

Vaughan Williams' fourth symphony is based on a four note theme. William Walton even called it "the greatest symphony since beethoven." Another one that is a little different is Parsifal; essentially all of the music and motives are derived from the opening motif.


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## beetzart (Dec 30, 2009)

The simple motif that Franck opens his 1st Piano trio in F sharp minor with reoccurs throughout the entire piece, or at least the first two movements.


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## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

The Sibelius 2nd symphony is a stunning bit of composition. The opening theme in the strings is used throughout the rest of work. All of the themes are derived from that simple theme. Studying the score in detail reveals just how organic and unified the symphony is - maybe that's why it's so satisfying to hear.

Another work that bears study is Franz Schmidt's magnificent 4th symphony. It opens with a haunting trumpet solo. Then the rest of the symphony is derived from that theme - not a short motto like Beethoven, but a long, melodic theme. Mind boggling how he unifies it all.


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## manyene (Feb 7, 2015)

mbhaub said:


> Another work that bears study is Franz Schmidt's magnificent 4th symphony. It opens with a haunting trumpet solo. Then the rest of the symphony is derived from that theme - not a short motto like Beethoven, but a long, melodic theme. Mind boggling how he unifies it all.


A work that should be better known: a very fitting culmination of the late German-Austrian Romantic tradition.


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