# The 4'33" version you have been waiting for



## david johnson (Jun 25, 2007)




----------



## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

Wrong sub-forum.....................


----------



## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

Kicked it one level higher.


----------



## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

I remember Eddy posting this. My favourite version of 4'33". I like how the bassist puts his earplugs on.


----------



## fbjim (Mar 8, 2021)

Clearly not classical music. This is a rock version.


----------



## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

Well, I'm not moving it again.


----------



## fbjim (Mar 8, 2021)

Art Rock said:


> Well, I'm not moving it again.


Anarchy has descended. This is now classical. I mean it even says so at the top






Actually I think this has more HIP-inspired tempos than that version by the French guy that gets played on the radio


----------



## Bwv 1080 (Dec 31, 2018)

Sorry, but 4'33" jokes are strictly forbidden under the Forum rules, unfortunately this thread will have to be shut down with lifetime bans on all who posted here:



> Forum Rules
> 
> Members may not post/blog any messages or insert any images, nor insert URL links to any images or text that are obscene, vulgar, sexually-oriented, hateful, threatening, or otherwise in violation of any laws. Before posting any image, please be certain that you have the express written permission of the copyright owner(s) and have provided a copy of such to the forum staff.
> 
> Members may not post jokes relating to the John Cage piece 4'33". Guitarist members may not play _Stairway to Heaven_. Members may not advertise nor insert ….


https://www.talkclassical.com/faq.php?faq=policies#faq_rules


----------



## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

I like the ambient sound. The piece isn't about silence; it's about hearing what you don't normally listen for.


----------



## fbjim (Mar 8, 2021)

Manxfeeder said:


> I like the ambient sound. The piece isn't about silence; it's about hearing what you don't normally listen for.


Much like Gurrelieder, Mahler 8, or the Ring, 4'33'' is at its best in a festival atmosphere.


----------



## SuperTonic (Jun 3, 2010)

I predict that this will become their most requested cover.


----------



## progmatist (Apr 3, 2021)

I remember how in the early 80s, it was pretty cool when Richie Blackmore's Rainbow did a cover of the Ode To Joy movement of Beethoven's 9th. Fast forward 4 decades, and rock/metal versions of classical pieces are quaint and cheesy....at best.


----------



## SONNET CLV (May 31, 2014)

Just when I thought I've heard it all (especially with reference to Cage's 4'33"), there is this.

I admit, I've never been a fan of "death metal". But on the strength of that performance ... well, I'm reconsidering my opinion.

I do, however, think this band could work a bit on the very beginning of the piece. Something there sounded just a bit off from how I remember the score.


----------



## Merl (Jul 28, 2016)

SONNET CLV said:


> Just when I thought I've heard it all (especially with reference to Cage's 4'33"), there is this.
> 
> I admit, I've never been a fan of "death metal". But on the strength of that performance ... well, I'm reconsidering my opinion.
> 
> I do, however, think this band could work a bit on the very beginning of the piece. Something there sounded just a bit off from how I remember the score.


Jeez, SONNET. Give the guys a break! Surely they're allowed a bit of artistic license.


----------



## janxharris (May 24, 2010)

Interestingly this is Dead Territory's most popular video, by far...and their second most popular is their _original_ version of the piece.


----------



## Forster (Apr 22, 2021)

Never mind the music, what about the crime against sartorial elegance...the socks and sandals combo.


----------



## SONNET CLV (May 31, 2014)

SONNET CLV said:


> Just when I thought I've heard it all ...
> 
> I do, however, think this band could work a bit on the very beginning of the piece. Something there sounded just a bit off from how I remember the score.





Merl said:


> Jeez, SONNET. Give the guys a break! Surely they're allowed a bit of artistic license.


If you read my posts you'll already know I'm all for artistic license and even lie-sense. But you may have hit the nail on the head, albeit quite silently, with that comment "Give the guys a break!" As I recall, the Cage work is divided into three separate movements. Maybe that's what's disturbing me. Maybe the guys should give the piece a break. Or two. I caught no sense of breaks during the performance. Rather, the whole thing flowed together as if a single movement were being performed. I mean, listen carefully. You'll hear it. It's right there. So obvious.

Hey, there's artistic license and then just plain artistic ignoring of the written score. Okay, maybe these guys are young and adventurous as improvisors, I'll give them that. And I am certainly no expert in the mechanics and practices of death metal performance. But I fear that if I meddle too much into this sort of music, it may well prove the death of me. So I dare not be one to death meddle.

Sorry if anything I said offended anyone. Rather, why don't we just shut our mouths and listen to the music. Ahh! That's so much more soundful.


----------



## SONNET CLV (May 31, 2014)

janxharris said:


> Interestingly this is Dead Territory's most popular video, by far...and their second most popular is their _original_ version of the piece.


Interesting, certainly. So, what does this say about the band's _music_ on its other videos? Perhaps what _isn't_ said proves more significant. 
This seems a perfect Cageian metaphor.


----------



## SONNET CLV (May 31, 2014)

Forster said:


> Never mind the music, what about the crime against sartorial elegance...the socks and sandals combo.


Obviously, some folks simply have no fashion sense.

(And I say this to you, Forster, while I recline comfortably, my socks and sandals intact -- on my feet where they belong.)


----------



## janxharris (May 24, 2010)

SONNET CLV said:


> Interesting, certainly. So, what does this say about the band's _music_ on its other videos? Perhaps what _isn't_ said proves more significant.
> This seems a perfect Cageian metaphor.


I assume that the piece's controversy drives traffic...and most comments are attempts at jokes.


----------



## fluteman (Dec 7, 2015)

SONNET CLV said:


> Interesting, certainly. So, what does this say about the band's _music_ on its other videos? Perhaps what _isn't_ said proves more significant.
> This seems a perfect Cageian metaphor.


I like Dead Territory's improvised drumroll introduction. It's funny that even with 4'33", one can debate about the composer's original intent, how closely to follow the score, use of different instrumentation / arrangements, etc. I guess that shows that 4'33" really is music.


----------



## fbjim (Mar 8, 2021)

fluteman said:


> I like Dead Territory's improvised drumroll introduction. It's funny that even with 4'33", one can debate about the composer's original intent, how closely to follow the score, use of different instrumentation / arrangements, etc. I guess that shows that 4'33" really is music.


It is not classical, though. Cultural conventions define genre and art, and this is clearly not presented as a classical music performance. This is clearly death metal.

Now if it's an orchestra in a concert hall, that's classical.


----------



## fluteman (Dec 7, 2015)

fbjim said:


> It is not classical, though. Cultural conventions define genre and art, and this is clearly not presented as a classical music performance. This is clearly death metal.
> 
> Now if it's an orchestra in a concert hall, that's classical.


I don't disagree with you, although I've pontificated here at length on my view of how to define classical music. Ultimately, the long-term verdict of history will determine if this Dead Territory performance or any other 'death metal' qualifies as 'classical'. I think it's unlikely, but I do think the long-term verdict of history in general will differ markedly from the conclusions of many posters here. Edit: When it comes to modern and contemporary music in general, that is.


----------



## Bwv 1080 (Dec 31, 2018)

John Cage would have appreciated this, not 4'33" of silence but at 0'03", it's the shortest song recorded


----------



## Shaughnessy (Dec 31, 2020)

Deleted post... came to my senses in the nick of time...

Saw that "Temporary Ban" marching right down Michigan Avenue...


----------



## SONNET CLV (May 31, 2014)

Bwv 1080 said:


> John Cage would have appreciated this, not 4'33" of silence but at 0'03", it's the shortest song recorded


The Red Krayola might put up a challenge. I have in my collection the original 1968 album that features "Listen to This".






The remastered version (2011 Sonic Boom Remaster), which I've only heard on line, is somewhat of an improvement, sonically, I'd say:






Too bad I don't have the remastered version on an album ... yet.

The album, _God Bless The Red Krayola And All Who Sail With It_, lists the song as 0:04, but that includes the spoken introduction and run-in time.

In any case, with the John Cage piece we are given more time to savor the music. Not quite the time, granted, that Mahler provides for a typical symphony, or Morton Feldman with a string quartet, but adequate enough to contextualize the listening experience. Trusting the 0:04 timing for "Listen to This" one has to hear it at least 69 times to equal the duration of the Cage piece 4'33". I've listened to "Listen to This" quite a number of times -- dozens, at least -- but probably have not yet hit the Cage threshold.


----------



## SONNET CLV (May 31, 2014)

fbjim said:


> It is not classical, though. Cultural conventions define genre and art, and this is clearly not presented as a classical music performance. This is clearly death metal.
> 
> Now if it's an orchestra in a concert hall, that's classical.


So, if Dead Territory performs this piece in a concert hall, what does _that_ make the music?


----------



## science (Oct 14, 2010)

I did not thing this would be the one I was waiting for, but it is. 

Honestly, it's better than it sounds.


----------



## fbjim (Mar 8, 2021)

SONNET CLV said:


> So, if Dead Territory performs this piece in a concert hall, what does _that_ make the music?


One of those dumb crossover things like that Metallica album with the orchestra in it?


----------



## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

Forster said:


> Never mind the music, what about the crime against sartorial elegance...the socks and sandals combo.


As if the revolting looking guitar isn't bad enough. Why can't death metal guitarists play something classic like a Les Paul rather than those vile pointy things with flames or skulls lacquered all over them?


----------



## SONNET CLV (May 31, 2014)

science said:


> ...
> 
> Honestly, it's better than it sounds.


Of course, the _soundness_ of that opinion is open to debate. Which is why I prefer to remain silent on the matter.


----------



## Bwv 1080 (Dec 31, 2018)

elgars ghost said:


> As if the revolting looking guitar isn't bad enough. Why can't death metal guitarists play something classic like a Les Paul rather than those vile pointy things with flames or skulls lacquered all over them?


here you go


----------



## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

Bwv 1080 said:


> here you go


Thank you. I'm glad good taste in hardware can prevail even within a music world for which I have virtually no affinity. :tiphat:


----------



## SONNET CLV (May 31, 2014)

elgars ghost said:


> As if the revolting looking guitar isn't bad enough. Why can't death metal guitarists play something classic like a Les Paul rather than those vile pointy things with flames or skulls lacquered all over them?


Such "guitars" are great for distracting one's attention from _what_ is being played to _what_ is being played, that first "what" being the music and that second "what" being the instrument. And you can hear the audience mumbling things like "Hey man, that ax is cool," or "Wow! Skull music, brother. It goes from that guitar skull right into my skull." No need for conversation about melody or harmony or lyrics or musical form ....

Which reminds me that perhaps I should paint a skull or two on my Yamaha NTX3 Acoustic-Electric Classical Guitar before I attempt to play anything for anyone. Maybe the distraction effect will work for me.


----------



## fbjim (Mar 8, 2021)

elgars ghost said:


> As if the revolting looking guitar isn't bad enough. Why can't death metal guitarists play something classic like a Les Paul rather than those vile pointy things with flames or skulls lacquered all over them?


For the same reason ballet dancers wear spectacular outfits-aesthetics are important in musical performance!


----------



## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)




----------



## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

^ Skip to 13:30 through to the end to get the basic argument. I think it may be the most reasonable assessment I've heard.


----------



## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

The work pales (in terms of "extra-musical" complexities) in comparison with Schulhoff's In Futurum, which predates Cage's 4'33" by 33 years 




specific instructions for hand postures to the performer:









daringly complex use of notation:


----------



## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

Phil loves classical said:


> ^ Skip to 13:30 through to the end to get the basic argument. I think it may be the most reasonable assessment I've heard.


Yes. People have gotten hung up on whether 4'33" is "music," i.e. what it is not, instead of appreciating it for what it _is_: as the speaker said, a profound work of performance or conceptual art.


----------



## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

hammeredklavier said:


> The work pales (in terms of "extra-musical" complexities) in comparison with Schulhoff's In Futurum, which predates Cage's 4'33" by 33 years
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I've read about this - any recordings? On CD, I mean...


----------



## Shaughnessy (Dec 31, 2020)

If you ever find yourself visiting YouTube - 

type in "Hitler's opinion on John Cage's 4'33'' in the search bar - 

Warning: Contains Adult Content.


----------

