# Iannis Xenakis



## Sid James

*Iannis Xenakis* (May 29, 1922 - February 4, 2001) was a Greek composer, music theorist and architect. He is commonly recognized as one of the most important post-war avant-garde composers. Xenakis pioneered the use of mathematical models such as applications of set theory, varied use of stochastic processes, game theory, etc., in music, and was also an important influence on the development of electronic music.

(From Wikipedia)

I've just heard a piece by Xenakis for string orchestra called _Shaar_, live in concert. The textures were rich, the sonorities amazing as he really pushed the instruments to their limit.

I haven't heard anything else by him, so I would be interested in the views and information about good recordings, etc. by people who are more familiar with him...


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## World Violist

One of his more famous pieces (I think...) is called "Metastasis." It's very strange and interesting to listen to, with a striking beginning: a group of strings start on a unison pitch, then one string starts a slow glissando away from the pitch, and then another instrument at a different rate of glissando, then another, etc. Then there is a central section, which I can't remember so clearly as it's been a long since I've listened to it (and that was for the first time). After the middle section, the musicians all go back to the disparate notes at the end of section "A" and glissando to the unison. Quite a striking bit of work, I must say. It's one of those rare avant-garde pieces that makes real sense.


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## PartisanRanger

You have me intrigued. I'm wondering how one could possibly incorporate game theory into music.


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## Guest

World Violist said:


> "Metastasis"... It's one of those rare avant-garde pieces that makes real sense.


Hahaha, good one World. (By the way, it's 2009 already. And avant-garde pieces that make sense aren't all _that_ rare!!)

Anyway, for Andre, Xenakis is one of those rare (!!) composers whose output is pretty consistently good. (_Shaar,_ by the way, just came up on another board, where the members savaged it pretty thoroughly. Heigh ho.)

I'm away from my collection at the moment, and I don't feel like going through the drudgery of calling up a list of his compositions to refresh my memory. So I'll just say that _Pithoprakta_ was a big favorite of ours back in the day. _Orient-Occident_ is very nice, along the lines of Varese's _Poeme electronique,_ but _Bohor_ is the truly radical early electroacoustic piece of his. An early electroacoustic minimal piece. (But don't think "repetition of small cells." That's only one kind of minimalism.) And _Kraanerg_'s a pretty big piece, in many ways.

For someone just starting out, I'd suggest a disc of early works, a disc of electroacoustic (electronic), and a disc of late works. Maybe a disc of chamber works, too. His characteristically dense sound is not the only characteristic of his music! Most important is how consistent he is. Means you're pretty safe buying just about anything of his.


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## World Violist

some guy said:


> Hahaha, good one World. (By the way, it's 2009 already. And avant-garde pieces that make sense aren't all _that_ rare!!)


Hey, I was just having some fun. Actually, this thread began a bit of an "avant-garde" phase with me for a bit; I've got some Xenakis and Ligeti lined up.


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## msegers

For those who have never heard the music of Xenakis -

_Pithoprakta_


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## Bartók

I think that the highlights of Xenakis's music is his work for percussion. Pieces like Psappha and Rebonds show off his highly innovative and intricate style of composing. This music sounds so unique, it is amazing to try to think what was going through his mind when he came up with it.


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## Jeremy Marchant

What I find fascinating is that Xenakis's compositions are highly rigorous, yet the soundworlds appear unconstrained, gutsy, violent, aggressive, and other startling adjectives. There's a primeval emotive force to many of his works.

I can only think of one other work by any one else that combines rigour with excitement so well.


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## Conor71

Just bought this Double-CD by this composer today as I am trying to add some more contemporary works to my listening:










Pretty cheap ($15 AUS!), will report back here when I have listened .


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## Poppin' Fresh

I have quite a large collection of his, I think he's amazing. My favorite Xenakis work is _La Legende d'Eer_, a staggering electronic piece structured on a slow build that has to be experienced all the way through to be believed. Gives me chills every time.

His percussion works are also great and definitely worth checking out.


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## Edward Elgar

I like his chamber works. There's so much going on it's hard to loose interest.


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## jurianbai

He was working with Le Corbusier as profesional architect, then become a composer, studied under Messiaen. Most of his works I've listened at youtube, like Metastatis, Orient Occident, Anaktoria etc. are all I hardly can define as music. It is of course a great creation as he got strong concept laying behind. But, *I will more interested to read a discussion about his works in this forum, rather than that 4'33".*


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## Conor71

Conor71 said:


> Just bought this Double-CD by this composer today as I am trying to add some more contemporary works to my listening:
> 
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> Pretty cheap ($15 AUS!), will report back here when I have listened .


I finally finished listening to the Xenakis chamber music set! - To be honest I found these discs pretty hard going and have concluded that this music might be a bit too austere for me at the moment!.
I have'nt given up on Xenakis and have checked out a few clips of his music on You-Tube to find some of his music which be more my cup of tea - I have ordered a new disc of Orchestral works which I think may be more to be liking and it will hopefully arrive soon :


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## Sid James

Just got this yesterday & have listened to it three times.










An amazing journey. Reflecting the subject matter of the Legend of Er (from Plato's Republic) where a guy dies, goes into the underworld - for want of a better term - and then wakes up again. Like the ancient Greeks' concept of this other world, which was kind of a combination of heaven and hell, this music has brutality as well as beauty. The music builds up in layers, from very basic materials (if you only listen to the first five minutes, you might think that it's minimalist). There's also a strong structural/architectural element in this music, reflecting not only Xenakis background as an architect, but also the fact that it was written for the opening of the Georges Pompidou arts centre in Paris in the late '70's. It's just amazing music, and one of my springboards into electronica by other composers...


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## emiellucifuge

So this thread has proved really useful for me, im just beginning to explore his works.



some guy said:


> For someone just starting out, I'd suggest a disc of early works, a disc of electroacoustic (electronic), and a disc of late works. Maybe a disc of chamber works, too. His characteristically dense sound is not the only characteristic of his music! Most important is how consistent he is. Means you're pretty safe buying just about anything of his.


What exactly do you recommend? Which early works etc..? And what would be a good selection of pieces that represent him in each of his 'phases'?

Thanks a lot.


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## Sid James

I have enjoyed quite a bit of the music of *Xenakis* since last posting on this thread just over a year ago.

I've got the same EMI chamber music set that Conor has talked about above, most of the works on it I really connect with. Another eye, or ear, opener was a concert here earlier this year of a couple of his percussion works, incl. the longest & most complex one called_ Pleaides_. It was awesome. I have little time here but I will return in due course to review the chamber disc as well as provide memories of that concert, I did take some notes on it which I will share here.

Let's get some reasonable discussion of Xenakis, one the most significant of all the post-1945 composers, rather than using him as a target or whipping boy to further various hard-core conservative agendas...


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## starthrower

I'll be getting around to the EMI set eventually. I have a bunch of the 2-CD compilations of 20th century composers. I just got the Penderecki set today, and I was blown away by the first three tracks I've listened to.

I'd be interested to know if there have been any decent Musique Concrete compilations available on CD? I'd really like to hear some works by several of the significant practitioners.


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## Guest

starthrower said:


> I'd be interested to know if there have been any decent Musique Concrete compilations available on CD? I'd really like to hear some works by several of the significant practitioners.


There have never been any compilations of works by several of the significant practitioners.

The BVHAAST set (http://wbk.home.xs4all.nl/BV_cat_list.html#acousmatrix), BVHAAST 0206 is pretty close. That's nine CDs for 62 euros.

There are dozens of compilations, but none of them contain works by more than one or two of the significant practitioners. (And no one's ever gonna agree on who those people are, anyway, are they?)

It probably wouldn't be too much of a pain for me to burn you a compilation CD. You'd only be getting the people I think are significant, you understand. I and maybe a few historians of electroacoustic music.

And if you really, genuinely want to limit it to musique concrete (no electronic, no computer, no live electronics), I can do that, though it won't be as interesting or comprehensive a collection. Still. That would have a certain historical value. And I'd try to make sure it had musical value, too. (That is, some early concrete pieces by Lachenmann, for instance, would not be on a compilation I would make, much as I love Lachenmann's instrumental music!)


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## starthrower

I'm not a purist, and I'd be interested in pieces with musical value as opposed to stuff that sounds like industrial noise. I suppose I'm looking for solid musical pieces that employ some of techniques involved including electronics.


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## violadude

starthrower said:


> I'm not a purist, and I'd be interested in pieces with musical value as opposed to stuff that sounds like industrial noise. I suppose I'm looking for solid musical pieces that employ some of techniques involved including electronics.


Are you looking for pieces that have acoustic and electronic instruments mixed together?


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## starthrower

violadude said:


> Are you looking for pieces that have acoustic and electronic instruments mixed together?


Not specifically, but it doesn't matter. I'll have to do some investigating and listening. There's a bunch of stuff uploaded at YouTube. To stay on the subject of Xenakis, I'm listening to Metastasis right now, and this sounds good!


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## violadude

starthrower said:


> Not specifically, but it doesn't matter. I'll have to do some investigating and listening. There's a bunch of stuff uploaded at YouTube. To stay on the subject of Xenakis, I'm listening to Metastasis right now, and this sounds good!


Well for electronics mixed with acoustic instruments I would suggest two composers
Jonathan Harvey and Alvin Curran. Those are two of my favorites.


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## kv466

I suggest Einstürzende Neubauten...excellent stuff!


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## HarpsichordConcerto

starthrower said:


> Not specifically, but it doesn't matter. I'll have to do some investigating and listening. There's a bunch of stuff uploaded at YouTube. To stay on the subject of Xenakis, I'm listening to Metastasis right now, and this sounds good!


_Metastasis_ to me, sounded more approachable. Quite pulsating. I had no trouble listening to it and picking up the soundscapes. See? Even HarpsichordConcerto can find some pieces of Xenakis that might be listenable and tolerable.

I hope you share with us more of your Xenakis discoveries. Member violadude is pretty good at giving us hints on these types of music.

This piece for saxophone quartet is not _too_ bad, relatively speaking. I think I prefer _Metastasis_.


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## starthrower

HarpsichordConcerto said:


> This piece for saxophone quartet is not _too_ bad, relatively speaking. I think I prefer _Metastasis_.
> 
> That was pretty darn interesting, thanks! I've only listened to jazz saxophone quartets in the past. I always enjoyed the written parts and the harmonies, but when everybody starts soloing at once with their honks and squeaks, I start to lose interest.


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## starthrower

violadude said:


> Well for electronics mixed with acoustic instruments I would suggest two composers
> Jonathan Harvey and Alvin Curran. Those are two of my favorites.


Can you recommend a piece or two by these composers?


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## violadude

HarpsichordConcerto said:


> _Metastasis_ to me, sounded more approachable. Quite pulsating. I had no trouble listening to it and picking up the soundscapes. See? Even HarpsichordConcerto can find some pieces of Xenakis that might be listenable and tolerable.
> 
> I hope you share with us more of your Xenakis discoveries. Member violadude is pretty good at giving us hints on these types of music.
> 
> This piece for saxophone quartet is not _too_ bad, relatively speaking. I think I prefer _Metastasis_.


Wow! Thanks HC! I really enjoyed that Xenakis piece. I had not heard of it before.


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## violadude

starthrower said:


> Can you recommend a piece or two by these composers?


For Jonathan Harvey, see if you like "Speakings" that is his most famous piece I believe. 





For Curran I might recommend Martime rights. Thats a pretty good piece. No good recordings on youtube though, unfortunately.


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## starthrower

Thanks, dude! I almost lost interest during the first third of the Harvey piece because it didn't seem to have much continuity. I'm glad I hung in there for the duration because things definitely begin to gel as the piece progresses and it feels like a success!


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## Sid James

It's good to have some informative discussion about Xenakis. I must say that on the other classical forum which I was on but left, Xenakis was given a really bad rap, his thread was polluted by idiots saying "his music is garbage" and things to that effect. I don't think this is particularly productive with any composer you don't like, although more balanced criticism informed by some real level of experience with the music is always interesting to read.

Okay, well one of the works I got on THIS album, recorded by our own Mark Cauvin, was Xenakis'_ *Theraps for double bass solo *_(composed 1970's). This work shows off the highest and lowest registers of the double bass (microtonality). It begins with low grinding sounds and then goes into these higher sounds (glissandi) and mix of high and low sounds (double stop harmonics), before returning to the low grinding sounds at the end. It has this curved, parabolic shape, going from low to high and back again, and the sounds in the middle part make me think of an aeroplane engine, it makes me think of flying. It makes me think of being borne aloft by a machine but also the landscape, nature, spreading out below me. Some of it reminds me of whale-song, even. I played it to a friend who thought it sounded like sirens, which is apt since Edgard Varese - who influenced Xenakis big time - used sirens in his instrumental works.

HERE is a somewhat cut version on youtube (7 mins), there is a longer version on there but the sound is not as good as this. Note: It is a good idea if you are wearing headphones listening to this to turn the volume to medium or low, because this type of microtonal music does go way beyond the normal octave (very high pitched sounds).

To conclude, Mr. Cauvin says of Xenakis' music in general in the cd notes, "Even with the predominant use of mathematical theories, which is a method for Xenakis to avoid putting emotion in his music, his music definitely displays beauty, power and character...It definitely isn't easy music, but being a world in itself, it is extremely rewarding."

& I'd add that this work is the standout work for me on that double disc set, although the other works on it are also very good, many styles of newer double bass music are covered, from experimental to traditional...


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## starthrower

Sid, that solo bass piece is pretty great! I don't think I've ever heard any double bass playing with that range of expression. I'm definitely going to pick up some of his chamber music. There's a two disc set on the Disques Montaigne label that features some other solo pieces, and chamber works written over a 35 year period.
http://www.amazon.com/Iannis-Xenaki...=sr_1_9?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1318830121&sr=1-9


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## Sid James

^^ Thanks for reading *starthrower*, glad you enjoyed it. I found _Theraps for solo double bass_ quite engaging on the first listen, I kind of "got" it straight away, as I said (but not all his works were as "easy" as that for me). Speaking of his chamber music, yes that's a good disc & there's quite a good deal of Xenakis on that Montaigne series (I've got the electronic work _La Legende de'Eer _on it). I will return in due course to discuss Xenakis' chamber music on the EMI disc posted by Conor earlier...


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## Guest

I agree with Starthrower - Xenakis is "industrial noise". We have enough of it already, thanks. The thing I most dislike is that it makes no call whatsoever to the emotions, existing merely as an objective statement of what is possible.


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## mmsbls

I have mixed feelings towards Xenakis. I have read several detailed discussions of how he created certain works (or parts of them). He often used science and math as a basis for the music. I gave a description of part of one such work, _Pithoprakta_, in this post. He used random numbers generated by computer to map a physical process (in this case the speeds of air molecules at specific temperatures) onto a musical piece. The procedure was fascinating, and the level of detail he invoked was surprising. Unfortunately, for me, the outcome was disappointing in that I did not _hear_ the effect he wanted in the music.

I think I'm interested in the process he has used because I'm a scientist and often use computers to map phenomena onto visual or numerical outputs. The thought of mapping onto musical outputs (pieces) was intriguing. Overall, the musical result of his mappings have generally left me completely lost - i.e. the music is not interesting or enjoyable to me and I don't see the value of the mapping. I admit that I have not spent significant time re-listening to his works so perhaps I would have more interest and hear more value if I had done so.


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## starthrower

^^^^^
I never said Xenakis is industrial noise. Obviously you haven't read my posts, because I've become very enthusiastic about his music most recently. As far as the emotional factor is concerned, this is highly subjective, and not necessarily criteria for good music, imo. There are plenty of cheap musical techniques that a composer can employ to elicit an emotional response. I enjoy adventurous music that possesses a vigorous boundary stretching quality, and Xenakis has it!

There's an awful lot of baroque music that isn't highly emotional, so employing your logical would mean that stuff is of no use as well. Why is J.S. Bach considered western music's greatest composer? Is it because people get emotional listening to his music? No! He's universally respected for his unequaled musical skill and inventiveness.


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## Guest

Apologies, Starthrower, I was looking at an earlier post and must have been mistaken. Yes, I agree a lot of music employs cliche to evoke emotion but the avant garde is emotionally sterile, in toto, in my opinion. If you are fascinated by it, good for you. I like the description of "industrial noise", however, and agree with whomever wrote that. I guess we'll have to disagree... I don't know about "cheap musical techniques" in relation to classical music - to me its too severe an art form to find much of this sort of stuff surviving for very long. A 'vigorous boundary-stretching quality' doesn't necessarily equate with good 'music' either. Sometimes this kind of approach simply becomes novelty for its own sake. I'm a subscriber to that idea.


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## starthrower

Yes, I accept your viewpoints as valid concerning some of the avant garde. In the end, I don't want to be preoccupied trying to analyze the technical aspects of music or the composers' motives. I just want to experience the joy of listening.


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## Guest

Yes, and I'll second that!! Thanks for your comments.


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## Sid James

mmsbls said:


> I have mixed feelings towards Xenakis...


I do too, same with as any composer, virtually. I don't put any of them on a pedestal like Gods. I connect with some of Xenakis' music & not others. The main "hits" have been his solo instrumental, choral, chamber (esp. percussion) and electronic musics. A kind of lukewarm area, or maybe even "miss" has been _Metastasis_, which I listened to a while back and didn't like. I thought it was too kind of dark and depressing. I will endeavour to listen to it again, but I must say I'm less into orchestral than esp. chamber. The smaller the better as far as I'm concerned, so it's my bias.



> ...I have read several detailed discussions of how he created certain works (or parts of them). He often used science and math as a basis for the music. ...


I have an acquaintance who studied Xenakis' scores and the algorithms/formulae underlying them when she was at uni. She said that he didn't strictly adhere to the dictates of mathematics, he applied artistic license. He was creative. She said some might say he got the formulas wrong, applied them "wrong," etc. It was a short conversation, so I can't really elaborate. But what I can say, having read some things Xenakis said about his own music, is that often he talked of nature. Eg. thunderstorms or weather conditions or being on an ocean, the waves, etc. I've read that it's kind of about his memories of Greece, stuff like that, but I don't know that much about that. In any case, I really do often get images from his music of nature. & like in _Theraps for double bass solo_, which I described above, it's a combination of the mechanical and natural that I hear in his music. So I like his music because it makes me use my imagination, his creativity brings that out in me, he can be rewarding listening if you like this kind of thing...


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## mmsbls

Sid James said:


> I have an acquaintance who studied Xenakis' scores and the algorithms/formulae underlying them when she was at uni. She said that he didn't strictly adhere to the dictates of mathematics, he applied artistic license. He was creative. She said some might say he got the formulas wrong, applied them "wrong," etc. It was a short conversation, so I can't really elaborate.


From the discussion of the one work, _Pithoprakta_, I saw nothing wrong with his methodology. I also read another paper that argued that he did get the science/math essentially correct in another work. But I think whether he got the math and science correct isn't really the issue. After all his works are music (inspired by math and science) not math and science themselves. I thought the idea of mapping parts of the real world onto music was interesting. Unfortunately, the result just didn't click for me. Maybe I'll go back another time and try his works again. Who knows? I just might find some works interesting enough to stick with them.


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## Sid James

^^ Well, if you're listening for a kind of structure, mathematical or otherwise, then I'd suggest _Theraps for double bass solo_, which I talked about above. It starts and ends with low grinding sounds and in between it soars very high (like a plane or bird?). Also, the electronic work _La Legende de'Eer _is worth hearing in full. A similar curved structure but somewhat more complex in between, and of course it's longer. The start and finished is high pitched but quiet sounds, and in between there are 5 or 6 crescendos, it's like a roller coaster ride in many ways. I talked about the story and concept of it above, but what Xenakis said about it is also apt, he said it's kind of like being on a huge ocean alone on a raft, experiencing all the changes in the weather. It's a very intense work, so I don't listen to it often. I have to be in "the zone" to do that, to hear it properly, to get the most out of it...


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## starthrower

I decided to order the EMI set. There are some other pieces I like that aren't on this set such as the saxophone quartet, and some of the other solo pieces. I was tempted to order the orchestral box, but after listening to some of the pieces in full at YouTube, I decided against it. Too much edgy string work that goes on and on for 12-15 minutes. The EMI set has the variety I'm looking for.


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## starthrower

Sid/Andre, I'll be waiting patiently for your review of the EMI set. Although I don't find the computer generated pieces all that interesting, I'm finding the choral work, Polla Ta Dhina more to my liking. 

The computer transcriptions don't utilize a broad enough musical vocabulary to keep me interested. An overuse of glissando and tremolo techniques I find rather tedious.


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## Sid James

I said I'd come back to discuss a concert of *Xenakis' percussion music* last year in more depth. It was a very memorable experience. I connected with the music on a kind of visceral "gut" level, it gave a kind of animalistic emotion.

The performers were* Synergy Percussion*, whose members are drawn from other ensembles, including our large symphony orchestras. They come together once a year to do a concert focussing on one or two composers. The previous year it was Steve Reich and Nigel Westlake, in 2011 it was Xenakis.

This concert took a long time in the making. It was a dream for decades of Artistic Director of the group, Timothy Constable, who addressed the audience. He said as a percussionist he had a love-hate relationship with Xenakis' music. Love because like his favourite composers, Xenakis constantly pushed boundaries and his music has this raw energy and the "blending of the banal and the transient." Hate because Xenakis' music is very complex, "he asks for the impossible," eg. these percussion works were written in a graph style notation, some parts having 13 different lines. I actually saw a large blow-up of the score in the foyer before the show, and it didn't look like a walk in the park to play, that's for sure!

The other thing was that special microtonal instruments, called saxens (I'm unsure of the exact spelling), had to be built. This was done by Tim Moore, who is a percussion instrument maker in Canberra, Australia's capital. So the whole thing took a good deal of time and money to make this concert a reality.

The program was made up of two works.

The first was called *Psappha*, composed in 1975. This was based on the syllabic rhythms in the poem of the same name by Greek poet Sappho (of 6th century BC). This work was originally written for one percussionist using a foot pedal, but as it was practically unplayable, here it was performed by four percussionists - one on small drums, another on medium drums, a bass drum player and a xylophone player.

_Psappha_ started with a duo on the smaller drums and went from that. There was a lot of variation in this 15 minute piece. Towards the end, the bass drummer was hitting the drum with such force, I thought she'd break the skin! There were these long silences between her hits, it reminded me of the "tenterhooks" finale of Sibelius' 5th symphony. This was quite suspenseful and exciting to watch and hear.

The main work on the bill was the final one,* Pleiades*, composed in 1978. This is a group or cluster of stars that formed a basis of stories of Greek mythology. The program notes say "today's six visible stars are the brightest of some 400 in the cluster, wreathed in a complex nebulae of dust and gas." Correspondingly, Xenakis' work is for six percussionists. It is in four movements, grouped by the elements of the percussion instruments - metal, skin, mallets and mixed (combined). It was about 45 minutes long.

The *first movement, metals (metaux), *was played on the six saxens, at the back of the stage. The sound was at a very high pitch, unbelievably loud, at some points all six players where hitting the same (or similar) pitch. It had gamelan like elements but it was at much higher pitch.

The *second movement, mallets (claviers), *was for these xylophone like instruments. They had mellower sound than the saxens and made me think of streams, water rippling over rocks. There was a gentle ebb and flow in this music, but towards the end it became more agitated and kind of mysterious and menacing. Right at the end, the last minute, there was this "rainbow" like sequence, going up and down the scale (which reminded me a lot of the rainbow bit in Messiaen's _Quartet for the End of Time _- not surprising since Messiaen did teach Xenakis for a number of years).

The* third movement **was all the instruments mixed and combined (melanges). *It was interesting to hear the blending of the different percussion instruments and see the six players move around the stage to play various instruments. This would have required a good amount of coordination in the rehearsals, let alone learning the score.

The *fourth and final movement *was for the *skins only (peaux). *This reminded me strongly of West AFrican drumming, and the music of Steve Reich. There were a lot of complex cross-rhythms here, and it was underpinned by the two "conductors" playing a big bass drum at one end of the stage and a medium bass drum at the other. These two guys directed the whole group while periodically hitting their big drums to give underlying rhythm, as well as playing two other smaller drums. Again, there was this ebb and flow effect, like waves breaking on a shore. There were a few bits that funnily enough reminded me of the opening drum roll in Grieg's piano concerto. The very end was like ordered chaos, very intense, that's how I'd best describe it.

The applause was long and many in the audience stood up to clap. A standing ovation, and I was standing as well, quite overblown and amazed at how deeply I connected with this quite complex music upon the first ever listen to these works. I wasn't the only one, by the looks of it. & there were a few faces known to me in the audience, a critic or composer or two, although I don't know them personally, just by sight.

All in all a great concert, and I thought I'd share it here...


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde

Actually I don't really know much Xenakis. What works do you guys recommend?


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## starthrower

I like Polla Ta Dhina for children's choir and orchestra. Honestly I'm not too enthusiastic about some of the pieces I've listened to. I have the 2 CD set on EMI, and I like disc two, but some of the other stuff doesn't sound very interesting to my ears. 

I have a few vocal pieces on the Pupils Of Messiaen CD. I think these are the most interesting pieces on the CD which also features a cappella works by Messiaen and Stockhausen.


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## Sid James

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> Actually I don't really know much Xenakis. What works do you guys recommend?


*Theraps for double bass solo* was a good start for me. I described it earlier on THIS thread.

*La Legende d'Eer* is a great electronic work, I described it a bit HERE.

The percussion works I described in my last post on this thread, the ones I heard live in concert, I would also firmly recommend those. Esp. the longer one, *Pleiades.*

As for THIS 2 cd set that starthrower and myself own, I have connected with a good deal of the works on it. I will come back here and review the works in depth when I get the chance.

My favourite works on this set are -

_*Herma*_ for piano solo - the music of different intensities brings waves crashing on the shore to mind for me.

_*Polla ta Dhina *_- quite visceral like a lot of his music, the softness of the children's voices, singing a kind of monotone, set off by the rich and colourful winds and percussions (agreed with starthrower on this).

*Nomos Alpha* for solo cello - a long work (about 20 minutes), it goes through the full gamut of contemporary cello technique. Some electronic like sounds coaxed from the instrument (as in the double bass work _Theraps _above, but the structure of this cello piece is not as straightforward)

*Akrata for 16 winds* - this has this minimalistic repetition, you don't know what will happen next though, there is plenty of variation within the repetition, but it's subtle and kind of psychological.


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## Crudblud

My Xenakis picks:

Kraanerg
Metastaseis
Keqrops
Aïs
Oresteïa
Pithoprakta
ST/4
Mists
Synaphaï
Pleïades
Evryali
La légende d'Eer
Roáï
Thalleïn
Polytope de Montréal
Concret PH
Ata
Nomos Alpha
N'shima

Hope I got all the accents right...


----------



## neoshredder

Just ordered his String Quartet's. Looking forward to adding to my Modern Music collection.


----------



## starthrower

I'm just dipping into the Timpani box set of his orchestral works. Some highly vigorous, aggressive, and dissonant music. 

It doesn't go good with your morning coffee, but sounds great played loud at night.


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## millionrainbows

Xenakis' mathematics-derived music, for the most part, produces very listenable results. There are a few instances, like certain of his electronic works and his sole work for organ, which strike me as very ultra-noisy, but these are the exceptions. I think one thing that many don't understand about Xenakis is that, although his works are based on mathematical concepts, the "musical ideas" are put there by him, in the way he uses the materials. He said that he saw music as "not a language, but as a combinatorial art," which makes sense.


----------



## Prodromides

My picks would be Echange and Antikhthon.


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## BurningDesire

I really love his sax quartet XAS, and his final work Omega. He also has a somewhat perplexing piece for cello and clarinet called Charisma, which has some really cool techniques and sounds, but honestly, the way its structured it sounds more like a demonstration of extended techniques for the two instruments, things which would be used in a more proper piece.


----------



## Sid James

millionrainbows said:


> Xenakis' mathematics-derived music, for the most part, produces very listenable results. There are a few instances, like certain of his electronic works and his sole work for organ, which strike me as very ultra-noisy, but these are the exceptions. I think one thing that many don't understand about Xenakis is that, although his works are based on mathematical concepts, the "musical ideas" are put there by him, in the way he uses the materials. He said that he saw music as "not a language, but as a combinatorial art," which makes sense.
> 
> ...


Well, I have been told that Xenakis did not apply mathematical formulas rigidly. If one is strict about it, apparently he got some applications of these formulas in his scores 'wrong.' In a mathematical sense, not in a musical sense. I'm no musician or mathematician but what I'm saying is that I'd guess that Xenakis applied a measure of artistic license when composing music - such as on the EMI cd you posted, which I have, and those where among the earliest works done with the 'help' of IBM computers - so he was not some scientist but a creative artist. It appears the boundaries between maths and music are fluid and flexible but I am more interested in the visceral 'gut' impact his music has on me, and some works on that cd - esp. Polla ta dinha, Akrata and Herma - definitely have that effect, and then some (I often find his music quite visual too).


----------



## millionrainbows

Sid James said:


> ...I have been told that Xenakis did not apply mathematical formulas rigidly...what I'm saying is that I'd guess that Xenakis applied a measure of artistic license when composing music...I am more interested in the visceral 'gut' impact his music has on me, and some works on that cd - esp. Polla ta dinha, Akrata and Herma - definitely have that effect, and then some (I often find his music quite visual too).


I agree, Sid, and I think that's a very healthy attitude for listening to Xenakis, or for that matter, _any_ music.

For myself, I want cerebral pleasure as well. I delight in naming intervals, hearing chord qualities (major/minor), and knowing what a modulation is; although I think these are also experienced intuitively, as pre-cognitive impressions. I actually get more pleasure out of Boulez after I've understood some things about his music, just as an opera lover would like a synopsis. It helps, and can be a real source of pleasure.

Let's not go the other direction and stereotype C-music listeners as pre-cognitive intuitives, groping our way through "gut" reactions and eschewing all things intellectual, or we will be no more esteemed than mere wine-tasters. _There is a world beyond the senses;_ I can *feel* it.


----------



## Sid James

^^Yeah well if you are a musician or know music theory (etc.) its a different ball game from me, I am not trained in music. I am just a listener.

I have posted this quote by XEnakis before on TC but I think its apt for this thread. I think I have not posted it on this thread (I hope?).

_Xenakis said "the listener must be gripped and - whether he likes it or not - drawn into the path of the sounds, without special training being necessary. The sensual shock must be just as forceful as when one hears a clap of thunder or looks into a bottomless abyss." _

That quote kind of helped me appreciate his music and connect with the emotions in it I was talking about. I think it demystified his music a bit for me. I think that anyone can access this type of music, even though its complex, the emotions it brings me are often immediate and I don't need to understand it, I just feel it.


----------



## BurningDesire

Sid James said:


> _Xenakis said "the listener must be gripped and - whether he likes it or not - drawn into the path of the sounds, without special training being necessary. The sensual shock must be just as forceful as when one hears a clap of thunder or looks into a bottomless abyss." _
> 
> That quote kind of helped me appreciate his music and connect with the emotions in it I was talking about. I think it demystified his music a bit for me. I think that anyone can access this type of music, even though its complex, the emotions it brings me are often immediate and I don't need to understand it, I just feel it.


That is a REALLY awesome quote  That goes up there with Varese's "The modern-day composer refuses to die." in my book :3


----------



## BurningDesire

<3 I love this


----------



## oogabooha

I've only heard Metastasis so far, but where should I go to next if I'm a new listener?


----------



## Crudblud

oogabooha said:


> I've only heard Metastasis so far, but where should I go to next if I'm a new listener?


Keqrops and Synaphai are good choices.


----------



## cjvinthechair

Really, really struggle with Xenakis ! Am trying this minute, thanks to recommendation on the thread, Polla Ta Dhina...thinking that anything for children's choir can't be too hideously obscure....well, just about !
'A l'ile de Goree' is the only other piece so far that I've managed to sit through. Any other thoughts welcome !


----------



## Crudblud

cjvinthechair said:


> Really, really struggle with Xenakis ! Am trying this minute, thanks to recommendation on the thread, Polla Ta Dhina...thinking that anything for children's choir can't be too hideously obscure....well, just about !
> 'A l'ile de Goree' is the only other piece so far that I've managed to sit through. Any other thoughts welcome !


Try these:











The first is solo piano, the second is more of a soundscape that takes ideas of space in to account. You won't get the full effect just from a stereo recording, but hopefully you'll be able to enjoy the atmosphere of the piece before long. Speaking of which, if you're struggling with Xenakis, it might be a good idea to approach his work as though it were an atmosphere rather than a composition (note that this approach may also help you with the Ligeti pieces you were struggling with). Of course, it could be that modern/contemporary music just isn't for you, nonetheless I respect you for wanting to give it a fair shot.


----------



## Noak

Love, love, love Xenakis. I can really recommend Edition RZ's Xenakis release. It's real great.


----------



## cjvinthechair

Crudblud said:


> Try these:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The first is solo piano, the second is more of a soundscape that takes ideas of space in to account. You won't get the full effect just from a stereo recording, but hopefully you'll be able to enjoy the atmosphere of the piece before long. Speaking of which, if you're struggling with Xenakis, it might be a good idea to approach his work as though it were an atmosphere rather than a composition (note that this approach may also help you with the Ligeti pieces you were struggling with). Of course, it could be that modern/contemporary music just isn't for you, nonetheless I respect you for wanting to give it a fair shot.


Many thanks for trying. Did listen, honest...OK not to all of it; but have to say I'm defeated. Like more 'modern' music than I used to - quite a few Americans, many Baltic etc., but it's not going to happen just yet with Xenakis, and as for Ligeti, well, I just revel in my ignorance of him & 'his kind' ! Sorry.


----------



## Crudblud

cjvinthechair said:


> Many thanks for trying. Did listen, honest...OK not to all of it; but have to say I'm defeated. Like more 'modern' music than I used to - quite a few Americans, many Baltic etc., but it's not going to happen just yet with Xenakis, and as for Ligeti, well, I just revel in my ignorance of him & 'his kind' ! Sorry.


Perhaps you will come back to it with a different perspective in the future, but the important thing is that you tried, and as I said before I respect you for doing so.


----------



## jani

http://www.formvote.com/discuss.php?postid=573590872996669
Formvote seems to love xenaksis

So what do you think about this piece?
I love it! 5
wow 3
Is that even music? 1
4 Comments


----------



## ComposerOfAvantGarde

S.709!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## pierrot

The last minute is Xenakis at it's most beautiful and (almost) tonal:


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## aleazk

Amazing piece!: _Keqrops_ (for piano and orchestra)


----------



## niv

After reading this thread all I have to say is...

Ok, you've got me pumped up. I want to get into xenakis!


----------



## neoshredder

niv said:


> After reading this thread all I have to say is...
> 
> Ok, you've got me pumped up. I want to get into xenakis!


After an hour, you will say I want to get away from Xenakis.


----------



## aleazk

niv said:


> After reading this thread all I have to say is...
> 
> Ok, you've got me pumped up. I want to get into xenakis!


You can try the piece I mentioned, _Keqrops_. I think it's one of the more "accessible". This version by Abbado is better:


----------



## niv

neoshredder said:


> After an hour, you will say I want to get away from Xenakis.


I guess I'm more patient, I'll think I can endure a lil more than an hour. Having listened quite a bit in youtube I have to say it's very abstract, but it seems the kind of music you need to give yourself time to savour.


----------



## ComposerOfAvantGarde

I've recently really gotten into Xenakis again, especially his orchestral works and especially "Ata."


----------



## Cheyenne

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> I've recently really gotten into Xenakis again, especially his orchestral works and especially "Ata."


I listened to that too recently. It's one of the ones in which he applied cellular automatons, apparently.


----------



## neoshredder

I think the next step in Modern music is to imitate the sound of chainsaws. That is if they haven't done that yet.


----------



## violadude

neoshredder said:


> I think the next step in Modern music is to imitate the sound of chainsaws. That is if they haven't done that yet.











..............................................


----------



## EricABQ

neoshredder said:


> I think the next step in Modern music is to imitate the sound of chainsaws. That is if they haven't done that yet.


Why would you need to imitate the sound of a chainsaw when you could just use an actual chainsaw?


----------



## Trout

Xenakis's works have enthralled me as of recent, especially his orchestral compositions such as _Keqrops_, _Jonchaies_, and _Pithoprakta_. The timbre that he managed to get from whatever ensemble he composed for is particularly astounding, like his frenetic _Tetras_ and his other works for string quartet. Even with just a solo instrument, as in _Kottos_ for solo cello, he seems to push the instrument to the limit of its capable sonorities and never ceases to hold my attention.

When I get the chance, I hope to listen to _Kraanerg_ in its entirety.


----------



## Neo Romanza

The only Xenakis I own is that Timpani box set of orchestral works which I haven't even listened to yet. Thanks for the reminder Trout.


----------



## neoshredder

EricABQ said:


> Why would you need to imitate the sound of a chainsaw when you could just use an actual chainsaw?


I should ask Xenakis that question.


----------



## Ondine

I started to get curious about Xenakis...


----------



## neoshredder

Ondine said:


> I started to get curious about Xenakis...


Try his string quartets first.


----------



## brotagonist

neoshredder said:


> Try his string quartets first.


Why?

I read a review of Shostakovich, an album of his concertos, I believe, and the reviewer went on and on about how you had to first listen to all of Mahler, then this, next that, and finally you would be ready to approach Shostakovich, but, Heaven forbid, don't start with the concertos. To have followed that 'advice' would have taken the listener on a roundabout journey of months or years before finally getting to hear the album of interest.


----------



## starthrower

neoshredder said:


> I think the next step in Modern music is to imitate the sound of chainsaws. That is if they haven't done that yet.


I think they should use them in operas. Sawing the diva in half while she hits some high notes!


----------



## ArtMusic

EricABQ said:


> Why would you need to imitate the sound of a chainsaw when you could just use an actual chainsaw?


Because it "pushes the boundaries, challenges the listener, it's new this, new that ..." etc. etc. But really, I doubt there is much in it.


----------



## aleazk

neoshredder said:


> I think the next step in Modern music is to imitate the sound of chainsaws. That is if they haven't done that yet.


I'm pretty sure some scandinavian deathmetal band has already done that.


----------



## Crudblud

ArtMusic said:


> Because it "pushes the boundaries, challenges the listener, it's new this, new that ..." etc. etc. But really, I doubt there is much in it.


There is potential in any sort of sound. How the sound is presented is what matters.


----------



## neoshredder

brotagonist said:


> Why?
> 
> I read a review of Shostakovich, an album of his concertos, I believe, and the reviewer went on and on about how you had to first listen to all of Mahler, then this, next that, and finally you would be ready to approach Shostakovich, but, Heaven forbid, don't start with the concertos. To have followed that 'advice' would have taken the listener on a roundabout journey of months or years before finally getting to hear the album of interest.


I am biased towards strings. I think String Quartets are one of Xenakis's strong points. A good example of that chainsaw sound as well.


----------



## ComposerOfAvantGarde

Neoshredder
Location: Houston, *Texas*



neoshredder said:


> I am biased towards strings. I think String Quartets are one of Xenakis's strong points. A good example of that *chainsaw* sound as well.




I hope this is a coincidence.


----------



## ComposerOfAvantGarde

Read a it more quit Xenakis today. Messiaen must have been such a good guy when he encouraged Xenakis to incorporate his astounding knowledge of mathematics etc. in his music, especially since many other of his composition teachers criticised him very negatively.


----------



## ComposerOfAvantGarde

More om the topic of Xenakis, my family around dinner time today went completely silent when I showed them "Ata" on YouTube, they were enraptured by the music and for a while the conversation revolved around Xenakis and how awesome his music is!


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## Garlic

You have a pretty amazing family. I don't think I could get away with playing Xenakis over dinner.


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde

Garlic said:


> You have a pretty amazing family. I don't think I could get away with playing Xenakis over dinner.


My mum, who is a non-musician (she did learn piano for two years as a teenager, but that's about it) is very enthusiastic about 20th and 21st century music. She actually knows more about Xenakis than I do which surprised me......well on the other hand I've never met someone who knows so much about everything! :lol:


----------



## ComposerOfAvantGarde

........................................


----------



## starthrower

I also have the Timpani orchestral box which I haven't explored all that deeply. I don't know if I'd put on some Xenakis for dinner music, but there's enough dissonance and edginess to cut my steak and broccoli.


----------



## Neo Romanza

brotagonist said:


> Why?
> 
> I read a review of Shostakovich, an album of his concertos, I believe, and the reviewer went on and on about how you had to first listen to all of Mahler, then this, next that, and finally you would be ready to approach Shostakovich, but, Heaven forbid, don't start with the concertos. To have followed that 'advice' would have taken the listener on a roundabout journey of months or years before finally getting to hear the album of interest.


Which is the very reason why I don't follow anyone when it concerns music. I listen to what I want, when I want, I don't need someone sitting in front of a computer telling me otherwise. I say if you're interested in something and you want to hear it then follow your own intuition and ignore all others. You'll certainly get more enjoyment out of music this way.


----------



## Vaneyes

neoshredder said:


> I should ask Xenakis that question.


Too late, you had your chance.


----------



## Vaneyes

Garlic said:


> You have a pretty amazing family. I don't think I could get away with playing Xenakis over dinner.


Solution. Try X at lunch, and Nono at dinner.


----------



## Cheyenne

Garlic said:


> You have a pretty amazing family. I don't think I could get away with playing Xenakis over dinner.


My mom has forbidden me to play 20th century music when she's around  She thinks most of it is too 'schizophrenic' and 'scary'.


----------



## Vaneyes

Cheyenne said:


> My mom has forbidden me to play 20th century music when she's around  She thinks most of it is too 'schizophrenic' and 'scary'.


And, The Devil's music. :devil:


----------



## niv

la legende d'eer to me is somewhat reminiscent of (posterior) psychedelic electronic music in parts. Anybody else got that feeling?


----------



## Rapide

I thought Xenakis did compose a piece, which to the majority on Earth, would sound like a chainsaw. But of course, it is music ...


----------



## aleazk

Rapide said:


> I thought Xenakis did compose a piece, which to the majority on Earth, would sound like a chainsaw. But of course, it is music ...


Oh, please, because to the majority of Earth this "does not" sound like a kid playing random notes at a keyboard...: 




And I love that piece, but if we are going to talk about what the majority of Earth thinks, we must be fair.
You know, the 50's are over. Today, someone saying something like "If a composer is not moving in the right direction, he will be killed, metaphorically speaking" is just a dogmatic id.iot...


----------



## ComposerOfAvantGarde

Cheyenne said:


> My mom has forbidden me to play 20th century music when she's around  She thinks most of it is too 'schizophrenic' and 'scary'.


It's better that it evokes some emotion/reaction than none at all. What is art for?


----------



## Mahlerian

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> Read a it more quit Xenakis today. Messiaen must have been such a good guy when he encouraged Xenakis to incorporate his astounding knowledge of mathematics etc. in his music, especially since many other of his composition teachers criticised him very negatively.


Messiaen was by all accounts a great teacher and a very kind person. He would offer strong criticism in his feedback if necessary, but only to get students to improve their work. He recognized some of his own blind spots, things that didn't coincide with his personal taste (Schoenberg, Carter, neoclassical Stravinsky, Jazz), and didn't try to get his students to compose as he did.


----------



## Prodromides

Have any fans of Xenakis read the series of books published by Pendragon Press (& edited by Sharon Kanach)?

I see book #2 in a local library ...










... and its got chapters within written by conductors like Arturo Tamayo and Michel Tabachnik.

This alone should intrigue listeners - especially ones acquainted with the volumes of CD albums on labels such as Timpani or _mode_.


----------



## Jobis

Much of Xenakis' music connects with me on a spiritual level.






Just gorgeous.


----------



## Morimur

On a Xenakis binge today. Love his work.


----------



## Morimur

aleazk said:


> I'm pretty sure some scandinavian deathmetal band has already done that.


Yes, they've done it -- artlessly.


----------



## Neuroticdog

Hey all...kinda a newbie to Xenakis but so far...what I've heard has blown my little mind. What follows is part 1 and part 2 of my Xenakis listening experience...hyperbole absolutely intended.

PART 1:

I just listened to the Xenakis piece "La Legende d'Eer" (Mode, DVD video 96/24 bit Hi-def) cranked on my 5.1 system (wife at work...phew) and here are my fragmented disjointed thoughts:

1-Can this be any more dense? No, it can't

2-This is some supernatural alien ****

3-There are snippits of this 47 minute piece that vaguely reminded me of Larks Tongues in Aspic (King Crimson), percussion wise

4-The layers of metaillic percussion, deep space drone, incessant jibbering of the above mentioned alien ****, full on rage in bedlam left me completely f'ed up, tongue tied and crucified.

5-I physically could not wipe the chesire cat grin off my face during the majority of this thing

6-The 5.1 mix makes little Stevie Wilson look like a ***** (and I love his work!!!!)

7-I'm seriously considering forceably ejecting my wife from the house so I can experience this face melter again along with the companion 5.1 DVD I picked up (Mode, Electronic Music Vol 2 with three more Xenakis pieces on it)

8-One more thing...woe betide any pathetic soul that happend to be walking down my street when this was in full onslaught.


PART 2:

Three pieces, they are Polytope De Cluny, Hibiki Hana Ma, Neg-Ale (soundtrack for the 8 minute film "Vasarely")

1-Hibiki Hana Ma is dense as all hell, sweeping gobs of orchstral swoops with taped outbursts of more orchestral paroxysms.

2-I thought I was ready by setting my volume on 11 before this piece started...it was a mistake.

3-That's because there was an eruption of subsonic bass noises that cracked my basements foundation---I swear..that really happened.

4-In my haste, I fumbled for the remote to adjust the volume and in doing so, it fell on the floor...at that point I was scared ******** that I woke my wife and she was going to come storming downstairs yelling at me to turn the goddam thing off...but she didnt. 

5-Piece 2, Polytope de Cluny. Kinda similar to La Legende d'Eer but stymied (a little) from out right chaos by the 7 verses I chanted before it started from the Necronomicon.

6-The old gods seemed benevolent by then and I was able to keep my wits about me...except for the slight drool emmanating from the left hand corner of my half opened mouth and the bovine perspiration that settled on my upper lip.

7-Lots of metal percussive sounds that all seemed to be segmented into groups coming from each of the 5 speakers. Little Stevie Wilson probably would not have been able to achieve this but Gerard Pape (Xenakis' associate) was able to.

8-I'm pretty sure that Gerard Pape has a deep understanding of what Xenakis was envisioning and I'm pretty sure that he is a genius.

9-The last piece, Neg-Ale acted like a cold glass of water doused my face. It was all acoustic and written for piccolo, horn, cello and percussion. It was quaint and...to be honest, disappointing. It was............normal, in a way. (Glad it was only 8 minutes).

best
Michael

p.s. Any opinions on Kraanerg? The Mode 5.1 disc of that is in the mail. I guess that means there will be a Part 3.


----------



## chalkpie

Kraanerg to my ears is one of the most radical and hardcore pieces of music I own. He mixes acoustic instruments with tape, but the skinny on that is the tape is actually an orchestra that was manipulated in many different ways. Sometimes it sounds like a warbled distorted mess and other times it has a more crystalline approach, but the interaction between the "real" and the "artificial" is where this piece is truly mindblowing and innovative. The piece is huge on texture and timbre, and the different range of frequencies at any given time were no doubt intentional and well-planned out by IX.

Its really hard to even describe what is happening but there are rhythmic figures and ideas that happen that make sense if you can follow what the f*** is actually happening. I really have no idea if this is true or not, but it seems like he is using micro or quarter tones in some of the pitches here, or it could be the tape has been altered to vary the pitch. Lots of brass (T-bones) and winds here as well. 

Its over 70 minutes of music that sets out on a mission to basically not give two *****, and ultimately its us (the listeners) that either can be lucky enough to ride along and witness this relentless and fascinating journey or you can get left in the dust quite easily if you give up. This isn't little Stevie Wilson singing about ravens and kids with ipods smoking weed in their bedrooms 

PS - just got back from the Crimson concert in NYC - WOW.


----------



## Mandryka

chalkpie said:


> Kraanerg to my ears is one of the most radical and hardcore pieces of music I own. He mixes acoustic instruments with tape, but the skinny on that is the tape is actually an orchestra that was manipulated in many different ways. Sometimes it sounds like a warbled distorted mess and other times it has a more crystalline approach, but the interaction between the "real" and the "artificial" is where this piece is truly mindblowing and innovative. The piece is huge on texture and timbre, and the different range of frequencies at any given time were no doubt intentional and well-planned out by IX.
> 
> Its really hard to even describe what is happening but there are rhythmic figures and ideas that happen that make sense if you can follow what the f*** is actually happening. I really have no idea if this is true or not, but it seems like he is using micro or quarter tones in some of the pitches here, or it could be the tape has been altered to vary the pitch. Lots of brass (T-bones) and winds here as well.
> 
> Its over 70 minutes of music that sets out on a mission to basically not give two *****, and ultimately its us (the listeners) that either can be lucky enough to ride along and witness this relentless and fascinating journey or you can get left in the dust quite easily if you give up. This isn't little Stevie Wilson singing about ravens and kids with ipods smoking weed in their bedrooms
> 
> PS - just got back from the Crimson concert in NYC - WOW.


Kraanerg is a piece I play a lot. It's always interesting from the point of view of textures but the first recording, the one thay Xenakis was involved in himself, goes a bit deeper I think. Somehow in that one there's a sense of inevitable organic flow.

Has anyone ever seen the Kraanerg dance?


----------



## Neuroticdog

Apparently there are bits of the Kraanerg dance on the Mode dvd that is coming but, based on reviews it's totally superfluous. Personally, I'm just interested in the music and the 5.1 mix (did Pape do it? Hope so!!!) and may not even watch the video portion. Although, I have to say the video portion for La Legende was quite dramatic, consisting of over 350 still shots of the installation that was built for this piece in Paris. The stills were then montaged together to create a sort of film that slowly morphed as the piece progressed...it actually worked for me.

Thanks for the insights on this piece...can't wait to hear it!

best
Michael


----------



## Exardesco

*Ouch*

Hi everyone. I'm pretty new to classical music and even newer to this forum. I've been listening to the snippets posted on this thread, In between the Chopin I currently have playing and I got to say, it is PAINFUL. Is this the point? Am I missing something here? Does anyone else feel this way?


----------



## Morimur

Exardesco said:


> Hi everyone. I'm pretty new to classical music and even newer to this forum. I've been listening to the snippets posted on this thread, In between the Chopin I currently have playing and I got to say, it is PAINFUL. Is this the point? Am I missing something here? Does anyone else feel this way?


You don't appreciate unconventional beauty.


----------



## SeptimalTritone

Be nice Morimur!!! Not everyone can be as bestially handsome as you 

Exardesco, I suggest you listen to Bartok (early 20th century composer) and then tackle Xenakis. Both composers have a primal, aggressive, and otherworldly spirit. Bartok is still rooted in melody whereas Xenakis is much more daring.

Perhaps you'll enjoy both composers string quartets? Bartok wrote 6 of them, and Xenakis wrote 4.


----------



## musicrom

Exardesco said:


> Hi everyone. I'm pretty new to classical music and even newer to this forum. I've been listening to the snippets posted on this thread, In between the Chopin I currently have playing and I got to say, it is PAINFUL. Is this the point? Am I missing something here? Does anyone else feel this way?


I'm pretty much in the same boat here. I've heard a fair amount of this kind of music, and I've grown to get used to it, but I still don't like it at all. I can occasionally trick myself into thinking some parts are pretty good, but in general, I'd rather be listening to something else.

(On the bright side, at least it makes the Chopin sound a lot better.  )


----------



## arpeggio

Exardesco said:


> Hi everyone. I'm pretty new to classical music and even newer to this forum. I've been listening to the snippets posted on this thread, In between the Chopin I currently have playing and I got to say, it is PAINFUL. Is this the point? Am I missing something here? Does anyone else feel this way?


Alypius kind of addressed this in a thread he started: http://www.talkclassical.com/34199-praise-20th-century-music.html#post726654

One of the major features about classical is the extreme diversity of styles, especially in the 20th Century. I do not get Xenakis either, so what? For some reasons I like his string quartets. Why? I do not know.

It is impossible to like and know everything. Just listen to what you enjoy and do not worry about the music you do not get. Do not like something because you feel that you have to like it. Trust you own ears not others.


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## Mahlerian

musicrom said:


> I've heard a fair amount of this kind of music


I'm not trying to be contrarian or anything, but I honestly don't have a clue what you mean by "this kind of music". To me, Xenakis seems more or less sui generis rather than like anyone else. The diversity of responses in this thread should be an indication that people, even people who might have similar tastes, react very differently.


----------



## tdc

_Polytope de Cluny_ is a wild Xenakis piece, I really enjoyed it. Its a shame someone took it down off youtube. Its a work I'll purchase when I get a better stereo system.


----------



## Crudblud

Exardesco said:


> Hi everyone. I'm pretty new to classical music and even newer to this forum. I've been listening to the snippets posted on this thread, In between the Chopin I currently have playing and I got to say, it is PAINFUL. Is this the point? Am I missing something here? Does anyone else feel this way?


Oh, I don't know about painful, I find _Keqrops_ quite soothing. The orchestral pieces are massive, not so much in length as in "sound mass" - without wishing to get too far away from the music as music, it's what I imagine floating through a heavily romanticised giant gas nebula must be like, only for your ears - with pieces like _Kraanerg_ which are so huge that I at least do feel like I am engulfed in sound. And of course, the chamber and solo pieces are different matters altogether, but that's perhaps a discussion for someone better acquainted with them than I am.


----------



## Exardesco

Morimur said:


> You don't appreciate unconventional beauty.


Or perhaps you suffer from unconventional Masochism?


----------



## Exardesco

SeptimalTritone said:


> Be nice Morimur!!! Not everyone can be as bestially handsome as you
> 
> Exardesco, I suggest you listen to Bartok (early 20th century composer) and then tackle Xenakis. Both composers have a primal, aggressive, and otherworldly spirit. Bartok is still rooted in melody whereas Xenakis is much more daring.
> 
> Perhaps you'll enjoy both composers string quartets? Bartok wrote 6 of them, and Xenakis wrote 4.


I took your advice. Got to be honest; I didn't listen to any entire pieces, but while I hear what your saying that they are a bit closer to what I myself consider music I still find them far from enjoyable. Oh well, perhaps some day.


----------



## Exardesco

Exardesco said:


> Or perhaps you suffer from unconventional Masochism?


Wow, that sounded rude without the wink, so


----------



## Exardesco

Crudblud said:


> Oh, I don't know about painful, I find _Keqrops_ quite soothing. The orchestral pieces are massive, not so much in length as in "sound mass" - without wishing to get too far away from the music as music, it's what I imagine floating through a heavily romanticised giant gas nebula must be like, only for your ears - with pieces like _Kraanerg_ which are so huge that I at least do feel like I am engulfed in sound. And of course, the chamber and solo pieces are different matters altogether, but that's perhaps a discussion for someone better acquainted with them than I am.


So what I seem to be understanding is that this is more of a sound experience than a musical one?


----------



## Morimur

Exardesco said:


> So what I seem to be understanding is that this is more of a sound experience than a musical one?


Even if that question had an objective answer, it wouldn't help your dislike for Xenakis. If you seek to appreciate and enjoy his work, consistent listening is essential.


----------



## Crudblud

Exardesco said:


> So what I seem to be understanding is that this is more of a sound experience than a musical one?


Well, I suppose that depends on your definition of "musical". For me, musical is that which contextualises sound (or vibrations, if you wish to be absolute) in time and space, a definition that applies to both Chopin and Xenakis. However, the differences between the music of one and that of the other are more to do with the times in which they were written than discrepancies of musicality.

I would suggest, rather than instant comparison of musics written over a century apart, that you follow a trail from Chopin to the modern and contemporary eras. Scriabin is a good place to start, he was strongly influenced by Chopin in his early piano sonatas and preludes, and following them through to his late career will provide a point of departure from where it is logical to move on to Debussy, early Messiaen (who would later be a teacher of Xenakis), and the composers of the Second Viennese School. From there you will find of particular relevance the music of Edgard Varèse, who, while allegedly not important to Xenakis, developed many ideas which appear to prefigure his music. I'm sure others might be able to suggest some reading material on the subject, but for my money you can't beat listening and making your own historical connections.


----------



## Exardesco

Crudblud said:


> Well, I suppose that depends on your definition of "musical". For me, musical is that which contextualises sound (or vibrations, if you wish to be absolute) in time and space, a definition that applies to both Chopin and Xenakis. However, the differences between the music of one and that of the other are more to do with the times in which they were written than discrepancies of musicality.
> 
> I would suggest, rather than instant comparison of musics written over a century apart, that you follow a trail from Chopin to the modern and contemporary eras. Scriabin is a good place to start, he was strongly influenced by Chopin in his early piano sonatas and preludes, and following them through to his late career will provide a point of departure from where it is logical to move on to Debussy, early Messiaen (who would later be a teacher of Xenakis), and the composers of the Second Viennese School. From there you will find of particular relevance the music of Edgard Varèse, who, while allegedly not important to Xenakis, developed many ideas which appear to prefigure his music. I'm sure others might be able to suggest some reading material on the subject, but for my money you can't beat listening and making your own historical connections.


Thank you for your comprehensive reply. On the strength of your suggestion I listened to Scriabin for the first time today, and happened to enjoy some of it quite a bit. I have yet to follow through on all of the composers whom you asserted were the logical line to Xenakis, but hope to do so in the near future.

As much as I agree with your comment that it is unfair to immediately transition between two composers hundreds of years apart, the fact that it was Xenakis whose music was rendered exceptionally unpleasant by Chopin and not vice versa, does speak to me. Bad taste in music? Perhaps. But nonetheless...


----------



## Crudblud

Exardesco said:


> Thank you for your comprehensive reply. On the strength of your suggestion I listened to Scriabin for the first time today, and happened to enjoy some of it quite a bit. I have yet to follow through on all of the composers whom you asserted were the logical line to Xenakis, but hope to do so in the near future.
> 
> As much as I agree with your comment that it is unfair to immediately transition between two composers hundreds of years apart, the fact that it was Xenakis whose music was rendered exceptionally unpleasant by Chopin and not vice versa, does speak to me. Bad taste in music? Perhaps. But nonetheless...


Well, take your time with those composers, and don't expect everything to make sense immediately. At the end of this particular journey, you may find you just don't like Xenakis, and that's fine, but I appreciate that you're giving my advice a fair chance. A slight correction, though, I didn't say it was the logical line to Xenakis but a logical line from Chopin to modern/contemporary classical - you may find that it helps you appreciate Xenakis better, and with any luck it will, but there are no guarantees. In any case, I hope you find it rewarding to work your way through the composers I listed.

Also, my reasons for suggesting the following of a trail from a comfortable starting position in the past to the present (or near enough) rather than leaping back and forth over great stretches of time, is that you increase your understanding by following history. Observing the changes between two points, seeing where the came from, and learning about the impact they had on the future can help greatly in understanding and appreciating things that may at first seem totally incomprehensible.


----------



## arpeggio

Crudblud said:


> Well, take your time with those composers, and don't expect everything to make sense immediately. At the end of this particular journey, you may find you just don't like Xenakis, and that's fine, but I appreciate that you're giving my advice a fair chance. A slight correction, though, I didn't say it was the logical line to Xenakis but a logical line from Chopin to modern/contemporary classical - you may find that it helps you appreciate Xenakis better, and with any luck it will, but there are no guarantees. In any case, I hope you find it rewarding to work your way through the composers I listed.
> 
> Also, my reasons for suggesting the following of a trail from a comfortable starting position in the past to the present (or near enough) rather than leaping back and forth over great stretches of time, is that you increase your understanding by following history. Observing the changes between two points, seeing where the came from, and learning about the impact they had on the future can help greatly in understanding and appreciating things that may at first seem totally incomprehensible.


I second the motion. I was working on a similar response. Yours is much better.


----------



## Exardesco

Crudblud said:


> Well, take your time with those composers, and don't expect everything to make sense immediately. At the end of this particular journey, you may find you just don't like Xenakis, and that's fine, but I appreciate that you're giving my advice a fair chance. A slight correction, though, I didn't say it was the logical line to Xenakis but a logical line from Chopin to modern/contemporary classical - you may find that it helps you appreciate Xenakis better, and with any luck it will, but there are no guarantees. In any case, I hope you find it rewarding to work your way through the composers I listed.
> 
> Also, my reasons for suggesting the following of a trail from a comfortable starting position in the past to the present (or near enough) rather than leaping back and forth over great stretches of time, is that you increase your understanding by following history. Observing the changes between two points, seeing where the came from, and learning about the impact they had on the future can help greatly in understanding and appreciating things that may at first seem totally incomprehensible.


Once again, I must thank you for taking the time to formulate such an informative (and obviously well informed) post. I was only superficially familiar with Debussy, and now, returning to him in an attempt to tackle his work more completely, I'm finding him quite nice as well. (Namely his Arabesques-would you be able to recommend something in a similar vein?) 
Anyway, it's art that's my forte, and I can completely understand the link made between Debussy and the impressionists. With the mindset of comparison between music and the visual arts would you consider contemporary classical music (such as Xenakis) to correspond to abstract expressionism or not?


----------



## tdc

Listening to _Mists_ for solo piano, I find this an intriguing and powerful piece that rises and falls in waves. To my ears this piece has a contrapuntal feel to it.






Also found this interesting interview, in which Xenakis claims his music was rejected by most serialists. He makes an interesting comment along the lines that it is dangerous when people claim to believe they know a kind of singular truth about music and try and force that on people. He compares the serialists at the time to fascists.


----------



## hreichgott

Neuroticdog said:


> Hey all...kinda a newbie to Xenakis but so far...what I've heard has blown my little mind. What follows is part 1 and part 2 of my Xenakis listening experience...hyperbole absolutely intended.
> 
> PART 1:
> 
> I just listened to the Xenakis piece "La Legende d'Eer" (Mode, DVD video 96/24 bit Hi-def) cranked on my 5.1 system (wife at work...phew) and here are my fragmented disjointed thoughts:
> 
> 1-Can this be any more dense? No, it can't
> 
> 2-This is some supernatural alien ****
> 
> 3-There are snippits of this 47 minute piece that vaguely reminded me of Larks Tongues in Aspic (King Crimson), percussion wise
> 
> 4-The layers of metaillic percussion, deep space drone, incessant jibbering of the above mentioned alien ****, full on rage in bedlam left me completely f'ed up, tongue tied and crucified.
> 
> 5-I physically could not wipe the chesire cat grin off my face during the majority of this thing
> 
> 6-The 5.1 mix makes little Stevie Wilson look like a ***** (and I love his work!!!!)
> 
> 7-I'm seriously considering forceably ejecting my wife from the house so I can experience this face melter again along with the companion 5.1 DVD I picked up (Mode, Electronic Music Vol 2 with three more Xenakis pieces on it)
> 
> 8-One more thing...woe betide any pathetic soul that happend to be walking down my street when this was in full onslaught.
> 
> PART 2:
> 
> Three pieces, they are Polytope De Cluny, Hibiki Hana Ma, Neg-Ale (soundtrack for the 8 minute film "Vasarely")
> 
> 1-Hibiki Hana Ma is dense as all hell, sweeping gobs of orchstral swoops with taped outbursts of more orchestral paroxysms.
> 
> 2-I thought I was ready by setting my volume on 11 before this piece started...it was a mistake.
> 
> 3-That's because there was an eruption of subsonic bass noises that cracked my basements foundation---I swear..that really happened.
> 
> 4-In my haste, I fumbled for the remote to adjust the volume and in doing so, it fell on the floor...at that point I was scared ******** that I woke my wife and she was going to come storming downstairs yelling at me to turn the goddam thing off...but she didnt.
> 
> 5-Piece 2, Polytope de Cluny. Kinda similar to La Legende d'Eer but stymied (a little) from out right chaos by the 7 verses I chanted before it started from the Necronomicon.
> 
> 6-The old gods seemed benevolent by then and I was able to keep my wits about me...except for the slight drool emmanating from the left hand corner of my half opened mouth and the bovine perspiration that settled on my upper lip.
> 
> 7-Lots of metal percussive sounds that all seemed to be segmented into groups coming from each of the 5 speakers. Little Stevie Wilson probably would not have been able to achieve this but Gerard Pape (Xenakis' associate) was able to.
> 
> 8-I'm pretty sure that Gerard Pape has a deep understanding of what Xenakis was envisioning and I'm pretty sure that he is a genius.
> 
> 9-The last piece, Neg-Ale acted like a cold glass of water doused my face. It was all acoustic and written for piccolo, horn, cello and percussion. It was quaint and...to be honest, disappointing. It was............normal, in a way. (Glad it was only 8 minutes).
> 
> best
> Michael
> 
> p.s. Any opinions on Kraanerg? The Mode 5.1 disc of that is in the mail. I guess that means there will be a Part 3.


What a great review!!


----------



## Crudblud

Exardesco said:


> Once again, I must thank you for taking the time to formulate such an informative (and obviously well informed) post. I was only superficially familiar with Debussy, and now, returning to him in an attempt to tackle his work more completely, I'm finding him quite nice as well. (Namely his Arabesques-would you be able to recommend something in a similar vein?)
> Anyway, it's art that's my forte, and I can completely understand the link made between Debussy and the impressionists. With the mindset of comparison between music and the visual arts would you consider contemporary classical music (such as Xenakis) to correspond to abstract expressionism or not?


I don't put much stock in the idea that music of a particular time reflects its artistic contemporaries, so I'm probably not the right person to ask. I've never heard of abstract expressionism in music, although the Second Viennese School (Schoenberg, Webern, and Berg chiefly) do have periods in their output which are collectively regarded as "expressionism". I'm not sure if this "movement" is considered to have ended when Schoenberg developed his 12-tone technique or not. Xenakis is most closely associated with the Darmstadt School (Boulez, Stockhausen, Berio etc.) although his music is quite far removed from what they were doing, which was primarily integral serialism (the 12-tone technique converted for other aspects of music such as rhythm, dynamic, articulation etc.).

P.S.: Other popular pieces from roughly the same era as the _Arabesques_ include _Prélude à l'après-midi d'un faune_, the _String Quartet in G minor_ and _Pelléas et Mélisande_. Perhaps not all that similar, but good music nonetheless.


----------



## Exardesco

Crudblud said:


> I don't put much stock in the idea that music of a particular time reflects its artistic contemporaries, so I'm probably not the right person to ask. I've never heard of abstract expressionism in music, although the Second Viennese School (Schoenberg, Webern, and Berg chiefly) do have periods in their output which are collectively regarded as "expressionism". I'm not sure if this "movement" is considered to have ended when Schoenberg developed his 12-tone technique or not. Xenakis is most closely associated with the Darmstadt School (Boulez, Stockhausen, Berio etc.) although his music is quite far removed from what they were doing, which was primarily integral serialism (the 12-tone technique converted for other aspects of music such as rhythm, dynamic, articulation etc.).
> 
> P.S.: Other popular pieces from roughly the same era as the _Arabesques_ include _Prélude à l'après-midi d'un faune_, the _String Quartet in G minor_ and _Pelléas et Mélisande_. Perhaps not all that similar, but good music nonetheless.


It seems to me that a large amount of research on 20th century music is in order. So much to learn! 
I feel kind of bad for somewhat derailing this thread so I guess I'll leave it here. 
(By the way I know and love Prélude à l'après-midi d'un faune; the string quartet, which I am enjoying currently, is new to me, as is Pelléas et Mélisande-which I look forward to sinking my teeth into when I have the two and a half hours time.) Thanks again.


----------



## Mahlerian

Abstract expressionism was primarily an American art movement of the mid 20th century. Expressionism was primarily a Germanic art movement of the early 20th century.

Schoenberg and his school may be related to expressionism:

















But abstract expressionism is quite different:









I've always connected Pollock more with Cage, in the way that they used controlled methods for not entirely predictable results.


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## neoshredder

Great music if you are in an experimental mood. Something out of the norm.


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## Exardesco

I was using the term abstract expressionism a bit abstractly, if you will. I was asking whether completely non-representational art had its equivalent in music. I should have been clearer.
Its quite a humorous thing, because amidst the futile arguments I used to have with people over the (possibly misperceived,) lack of virtue in abstract art, one of my principal cases was that the person I was arguing with generally conceded that if abstract art had its equal in music, (this is was before I became aware that it in fact, does) they would not consider listening to it. Well, what are you going to do; I suppose these things happen.


----------



## Mahlerian

Given that music is not representational to begin with, any such comparison would necessarily include a metaphor. I suppose the closest analogue would be a piece without a subject, that is, without any unifying theme or motif. Such pieces do of course exist.

Others have proposed tonality as an analogue for representation and "atonality" as an analogue for abstraction. Putting aside the fact that atonal is a mostly meaningless term, I see a better correlation between tonality and perspective.

Just as one has pre-tonal music, we have European painting and illustration before realistic perspective:









And impressionist music, like impressionist painting, played with tonal perspective by removing tonal function:









It goes without saying that expressionist painting, like expressionist music, distorted these perspectives as well.

Going to another comparison, both Schoenberg and Stravinsky have been compared to cubism in their approach:


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## Exardesco

I have to say, I am completely musically illiterate. I have a very vague mental definition of tonality vs. atonality, but what precisely, is pre-tonality? Is this a description of how music sounded before the renaissance? I am aware that no direct comparison can be made between music and art, specifically representational vs abstract, and moreover feel that realistic perspective is a very poor main indicator of the representational quality of a picture. 

"And impressionist music, like impressionist painting, played with tonal perspective by removing tonal function:"

I am finding it extremely difficult to understand you. Are you saying that impressionist painting in some way altered correct perspective? (And in our musical analogy tone? Could you try to explain this a bit more clearly?) I don't believe that is necessarily accurate. There was a definite decrease in realism (whose musical analogy would be, as you say, a theme or subject?), but this was due to their taking the (Rubens side) of the Poussin vs Rubens (line vs. color) debate to the extreme.
I'm not sure this even bears any relevance to the subject at hand nor am I sure I have understood you at all, in which case my professed ignorance is certainly to blame. My apologies for my long windedness (rambling?), and thanks for the continued elucidation.


----------



## Mahlerian

Putting it in the most basic way possible, tonality is having a piece of music be "in a key", such as C major or A minor. This kind of tonality developed in the baroque era, and pieces before then are not "in keys" in the same way (there are technical reasons for this, of course, but it all relates to the way harmony and melody are used).

Impressionist music is, likewise, not "in a key" in quite the same sense as music of the preceding eras, nor is much of the rest of 20th century music. It establishes which note (or notes) is felt as the center of a work through other means.

I'm sure you can tell how while there is depth in impressionist painting, it is not "realistic" depth of the kind seen in Academic art:









For an example of these developments, here are mass settings throughout the ages:




 (Medieval, before triadic harmony - Guillaume de Machaut)




 (Renaissance, triadic harmony in modal polyphony - Josquin des Prez)




 (Baroque, tonal harmony in counterpoint - Bach)




 (Classical, tonal harmony with more focus on single melodic lines - Mozart)




 (Romantic, tonal harmony with more use of notes outside of the base scale - Bruckner)




 (Modern, use of diatonic scale without requirements of tonal function - Stravinsky)




 (Modern, use of full chromatic scale with "tonal" leanings - Frank Martin)




 (Modern, use of full chromatic scale plus notes in-between - Ligeti)

By the last two, you can see that we've come much closer to Xenakis, and indeed, these two were the ones composed during his career.


----------



## Mandryka

Mahlerian said:


> Given that music is not representational to begin with, any such comparison would necessarily include a metaphor. I suppose the closest analogue would be a piece without a subject, that is, without any unifying theme or motif. Such pieces do of course exist.
> 
> *Others have proposed tonality as an analogue for representation and "atonality" as an analogue for abstraction. Putting aside the fact that atonal is a mostly meaningless term, I see a better correlation between tonality and perspective.
> *
> Just as one has pre-tonal music, we have European painting and illustration before realistic perspective:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And impressionist music, like impressionist painting, played with tonal perspective by removing tonal function:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It goes without saying that expressionist painting, like expressionist music, distorted these perspectives as well.
> 
> Going to another comparison, both Schoenberg and Stravinsky have been compared to cubism in their approach:


The bit I put in bold, can you direct me to something to read about that idea? (Remember, I don't have access to a university library.)

Added later - or is it the stuff about keys and perspective you put in some posts after?


----------



## Sid James

It's good that discussion about Xenakis has been revived here. It's been a while since I have heard his music, and I want to do that sometime soon.

In terms of the conversation above about the visual equivalents of his music, the obvious one is architecture, particularly buildings he designed. He composed his Legende de'eer for a specific building, the Diatope, and the piece was performed there when the Pompidou building in Paris opened. The work's structure, with these sounds being built up from nothing into several climaxes and then receding, mirrors the curvilinear shape of the building.

I see this as somewhat like other pieces composed for specific spaces, the Gabrieli brothers pieces for choirs and brass composed for churches in Venice (most notably, St Mark's) comes to mind.

I found this article about it, and the picture below of Distope comes from that:










In terms of visual art, there are connections to various things going on at the time. Xenakis worked with the architect Le Corbusier, who painted in a style called Orphism. I prefer his images to his buildings, although I see them more like graphic design than artworks, being integrated into his buildings:


----------



## Mahlerian

Mandryka said:


> The bit I put in bold, can you direct me to something to read about that idea? (Remember, I don't have access to a university library.)
> 
> Added later - or is it the stuff about keys and perspective you put in some posts after?


It's mostly my own personal idea. I'll admit my knowledge of art is rather superficial, but to me this analogy is more compelling than the one linking tonality and representation in art.


----------



## Exardesco

Mahlerian said:


> Putting it in the most basic way possible, tonality is having a piece of music be "in a key", such as C major or A minor. This kind of tonality developed in the baroque era, and pieces before then are not "in keys" in the same way (there are technical reasons for this, of course, but it all relates to the way harmony and melody are used).
> 
> Impressionist music is, likewise, not "in a key" in quite the same sense as music of the preceding eras, nor is much of the rest of 20th century music. It establishes which note (or notes) is felt as the center of a work through other means.
> 
> I'm sure you can tell how while there is depth in impressionist painting, it is not "realistic" depth of the kind seen in Academic art:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> For an example of these developments, here are mass settings throughout the ages:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (Medieval, before triadic harmony - Guillaume de Machaut)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (Renaissance, triadic harmony in modal polyphony - Josquin des Prez)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (Baroque, tonal harmony in counterpoint - Bach)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (Classical, tonal harmony with more focus on single melodic lines - Mozart)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (Romantic, tonal harmony with more use of notes outside of the base scale - Bruckner)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (Modern, use of diatonic scale without requirements of tonal function - Stravinsky)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (Modern, use of full chromatic scale with "tonal" leanings - Frank Martin)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (Modern, use of full chromatic scale plus notes in-between - Ligeti)
> 
> By the last two, you can see that we've come much closer to Xenakis, and indeed, these two were the ones composed during his career.


First of all, thank you for the clear and simple explanation, as well as the examples. About the painting, the excellent piece of neoclassicism you posted, does of course have more depth than most impressionist works, but this owes more to David's correct use of value and color, and clean edges, than it does to correct use of perspective. A line drawing, for example, can be accurate in perspective, and yet I doubt you would say that it has depth. In any case, I suppose I'm being needlessly argumentative over your usage of the term perspective, when you obviously meant it as a general indicator of the realism and three dimensionality of the picture. I really do appreciate your answer; might you recommend any books for a beginner on musical theory/history?


----------



## Mahlerian

Exardesco said:


> First of all, thank you for the clear and simple explanation, as well as the examples. About the painting, the excellent piece of neoclassicism you posted, does of course have more depth than most impressionist works, but this owes more to David's correct use of value and color, and clean edges, than it does to correct use of perspective. A line drawing, for example, can be accurate in perspective, and yet I doubt you would say that it has depth. In any case, I suppose I'm being needlessly argumentative over your usage of the term perspective, when you obviously meant it as a general indicator of the realism and three dimensionality of the picture. I really do appreciate your answer; might you recommend any books for a beginner on musical theory/history?


Musicologist Taruskin's History of Western Music is a very well-reviewed, if quite opinionated, tome (5 volumes, I think), though i haven't read it myself. Books like the "for dummies" series are, in spite of the name, usually pretty good, though they only cover the most basic of basics and you'd need to move on to something else after that.

Pianist and musicologist Charles Rosen wrote a pair of excellent books on the Classical and Romantic periods, but they require a bit of background in theory to get into (both use plenty of score examples).

For music of the 20th century, critic Alex Ross's "The Rest is Noise" is aimed at the average reader and tries to give an overview of the story of modern music, without very much recourse to theory. It's less valuable for trends after World War II, but up to then it's not too bad, and he still maintains a website where you can hear samples of the works under discussion in each chapter.


----------



## violadude

Mahlerian said:


> Books like the "for dummies" series are, in spite of the name, usually pretty good, though they only cover the most basic of basics and you'd need to move on to something else after that.


Just as an added pre-caution, I have read the "Classical Music for Dummies" book and while it does give a great overview of classical music history and I would probably recommend it for beginners, it also tries to be humorous and goofy in a way that may give an inaccurate portrayal of certain composers or styles. It's just something to be aware of. Honestly, any book that gives as shallow* an overview of music history as the "For Dummies" book is going to have some inaccuracies in it.

*In this context, I don't mean shallow as a derogative, just as a matter of fact.


----------



## Exardesco

Taruskin's History of Western Music it is then. 3856 pages! I will be ordering it shortly, and indeed am already salivating at the thought of such a tremendous amount of reading material, devoted to a single topic. Thanks again.


----------



## Exardesco

violadude said:


> Just as an added pre-caution, I have read the "Classical Music for Dummies" book and while it does give a great overview of classical music history and I would probably recommend it for beginners, it also tries to be humorous and goofy in a way that may give an inaccurate portrayal of certain composers or styles. It's just something to be aware of. Honestly, any book that gives as shallow* an overview of music history as the "For Dummies" book is going to have some inaccuracies in it.
> 
> *In this context, I don't mean shallow as a derogative, just as a matter of fact.


Personally, I would find it extremely degrading to even be caught reading a "for dummies" book on classical music.


----------



## Exardesco

Exardesco said:


> Personally, I would find it extremely degrading to even be caught reading a "for dummies" book on classical music.


On the other hand though, I just may need it....


----------



## Morimur

Exardesco said:


> Personally, I would find it extremely degrading to even be caught reading a "for dummies" book on classical music.


Not me! All ma wisdom be comin' from dem dummies books! Mmm Hmm...


----------



## violadude

Exardesco said:


> On the other hand though, I just may need it....


No need to be embarrassed. Everyone needs to start somewhere.


----------



## Exardesco

violadude said:


> No need to be embarrassed. Everyone needs to start somewhere.


Aww... what a sweet guy.


----------



## Sid James

I'd add to the things I said above that Le Corbusier's Chapel at Ronchamp is a good example of something mirroring the shapes in Xenakis' music. Its got that combination of curves and hard surfaces, the architectural style called Brutalism. I'm not a fan of classic Modernist architects like Le Corbusier or Mies van der Rohe, but that type of aesthetic in some ways reflects Xenakis' one in music.

He can also be very suggestive of natural images. Of _La Legende d'eer_, Xenakis said that "I was thinking of someone in the middle of an Ocean. The elements are all around him, sometimes raging, sometimes calm."

I often get this feeling of being immersed in nature with his music, I have talked of this before (probably on this thread, which I created and have added to over the years). In _Theraps for double bass solo _there is this feeling of being on high, perhaps in a plane or glider, of reaching the peak of the curve and coming down again. In_ Herma for solo piano _I get a sense of crashing waves in all those loud buildups of sound. In _La Legende d'eer _its more a sense of those continuous peaks and troughs I talked to before.

As with Gabrieli's works for St Marks, _La Legende d'eer _has this element of combining architecture with spectacle and ritual. At its permiere in the specially designed building, there was a light and mirror show which complemented the music. The building was a non-denominational chapel, but I think it was a temporary structure only.



tdc said:


> Listening to _Mists_ for solo piano, I find this an intriguing and powerful piece that rises and falls in waves. To my ears this piece has a contrapuntal feel to it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Also found this interesting interview, in which Xenakis claims his music was rejected by most serialists. He makes an interesting comment along the lines that it is dangerous when people claim to believe they know a kind of singular truth about music and try and force that on people. He compares the serialists at the time to fascists.


What you said about Xenakis' music is one of the things which I tend to get out of it too, that sense of shape.

In terms of that whole serialist hegemony or diktat issue, a number of composers weren't happy with it, especially those who where more interested in sonority than ordering things a la serialism. Other than Xenakis, composers like Varese, Sculthorpe and Partch said they simply weren't interested. I think that innovations in sonority where downplayed at the time, many composers felt they where caught between this tug of war between various agendas (another one was Cage's chance-based music, which had some quite extreme ideology as well, closer to anarchy).


----------



## Sid James

I've watched that Xenakis interview again to take notes and put some more detailed impressions here. I noticed how he speaks about his own ways of composing, and why he did it. His demeanour is very down to earth and he uses clear and understandable language. He doesn't make any universalist type guru or Messiah-like statements either.

In terms of the negative reception of an early premiere of his work at Donaueschingen by the serialists, that's where he talks of the fascist analogy. This quote goes to the heart of all ideological debates about music: _"Sometimes musicians think that they have the truth in what they are doing, and that all the other people who are doing something different are out of the truth, they are liars."_

He also remembers the crowds during the protests in Greece and also sounds of nature when he was camping, and relates these to the patterns in his music.

I understand how all this went against the grain of the posturing and ideology of the 1950's. One big thing is that he references things outside music, in terms of people and nature. He's also using mathematics in what he says was going against the grain of determinism of the main post-war trends.

I've had some deal of admiration for Xenakis on a personal level - mainly for what he and others went through during the Greek civil war, which seems largely forgotten now - but this interview has just made that impression stronger.


----------



## Exardesco

Exardesco said:


> On the other hand though, I just may need it....


Violadude likes this? I'm not sure whether I should be insulted by this or not


----------



## Igneous01

Has anyone ever recorded or played his later piano works? I've listened to Mists and Evryali on youtube, but looks like the performance was for a midi piano. Some sections of mists in particular look unfathomable to play.


----------



## Mahlerian

Igneous01 said:


> Has anyone ever recorded or played his later piano works? I've listened to Mists and Evryali on youtube, but looks like the performance was for a midi piano. Some sections of mists in particular look unfathomable to play.


Aki Takahashi has done a disc of his piano works, including Mists:


----------



## Morimur

It's a testament to Xenakis' skill and individuality as a composer that no one has ever remotely sounded like him.


----------



## Guest

Morimur said:


> It's a testament to Xenakis' skill and individuality as a composer that no one has ever remotely sounded like him.


And perhaps a testament to his natural talents in architecture?


----------



## Mandryka

nathanb said:


> And perhaps a testament to his natural talents in architecture?


Have you seen a building by Xenakis?


----------



## dgee

Mandryka said:


> Have you seen a building by Xenakis?


The Phillips Pavilion - one phenomenally HOTT building


----------



## KenOC

The Phillips Pavilion, project management by Xenakis. Especially for people who like Varese.


----------



## Morimur

I wonder why X is not often mentioned in 'greatest of 20th century' talks. Is his output not on par with Stravinsky's or Bartók's? His teacher, Messiaen often gets the same treatment.


----------



## Richannes Wrahms

Stravinsky and Bartók seem much more connected to the past than post-quatuor Messiaen and Xenakis, whose music is constructed very differently from that of any other classical composers.


----------



## Guest

Richannes Wrahms said:


> Stravinsky and Bartók seem much more connected to the past than post-quatuor Messiaen and Xenakis, whose music is constructed very differently from that of any other classical composers.


One Word: Varese


----------



## Richannes Wrahms

Yeah we keep forgetting that guy, I wonder why...


----------



## violadude

Richannes Wrahms said:


> Yeah we keep forgetting that guy, I wonder why...


Maybe cause he wrote so little. Just a guess.


----------



## Guest

violadude said:


> Maybe cause he wrote so little. Just a guess.


Hey now, just point out that Messiaen and Xenakis didn't exist in a vacuum..


----------



## violadude

nathanb said:


> Hey now, just point out that Messiaen and Xenakis didn't exist in a vacuum..


Of course. I wasn't suggesting that Varese's influence was negligible. It's just a possible reason why people always forget about him.


----------



## Guest

Like the OP, I am just enjoying Shaar; for large string orchestra. It's a quite incredible sound world.


----------



## dzc4627

Pithroptika is very good. Xenakis is unlike anything I have heard in music.


----------



## Guest

I'm thinking of buying a Xenakis CD (or even boxed set); probably orchestral works.

Anybody got any specific recommendations?

Two that have caught my eye>>>

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Alpha-Omega...e=UTF8&qid=1431605143&sr=1-2&keywords=xenakis









http://www.amazon.co.uk/Orchestral-...e=UTF8&qid=1431605282&sr=1-6&keywords=xenakis


----------



## hpowders

dogen said:


> I'm thinking of buying a Xenakis CD (or even boxed set); probably orchestral works.
> 
> Anybody got any specific recommendations?
> 
> Two that have caught my eye>>>
> 
> http://www.amazon.co.uk/Alpha-Omega...e=UTF8&qid=1431605143&sr=1-2&keywords=xenakis
> 
> View attachment 69660
> 
> 
> http://www.amazon.co.uk/Orchestral-...e=UTF8&qid=1431605282&sr=1-6&keywords=xenakis
> 
> View attachment 69661


If you do, let me know how you like his music. I've yet to dip my sensitive toe in that particular stream.


----------



## Guest

hpowders said:


> If you do, let me know how you like his music. I've yet to dip my sensitive toe in that particular stream.


Will do. 

I've put my toe in with an album from the public library and some rummaging around on t'interweb. What particularly grabbed me was his seeming ability to compose music for large ensembles that sounds so different from much else, yet using the same instruments. That's obviously not the be-all-and-end-all of "good music" nor is it a lot of people's cup of tea, but it certainly gets my attention, as someone who enjoys experimentation and envelope-pushing.

It's an orchestra; but not as we know it.


----------



## Morimur

dogen said:


> I'm thinking of buying a Xenakis CD (or even boxed set); probably orchestral works.
> 
> Anybody got any specific recommendations?
> 
> Two that have caught my eye>>>
> 
> http://www.amazon.co.uk/Alpha-Omega...e=UTF8&qid=1431605143&sr=1-2&keywords=xenakis
> 
> View attachment 69660
> 
> 
> http://www.amazon.co.uk/Orchestral-...e=UTF8&qid=1431605282&sr=1-6&keywords=xenakis
> 
> View attachment 69661


I got Alpha & Omega not long ago and I can tell you that it's worth your hard earned dollars. Excellent set.


----------



## Guest

Cheers. Thanks for the rec. :tiphat:


----------



## SilverSurfer

Xenakis' percussion music never stops giving surprises: On 2010, Daniel Ciampolini recorded an electro/acoustic version of Psappha besides Persephassa where he played the 6 roles, and now Kuniko Kate has done the same with Pléïades, as shown in this amazing promotional video:


----------



## SilverSurfer

And this review offers her groovy version of Rebonds B:

http://www.npr.org/sections/deceptivecadence/2015/04/14/398323829/the-hypnotic-groove-of-xenakis


----------



## brotagonist

dogen said:


> I'm thinking of buying a Xenakis CD (or even boxed set); probably orchestral works.
> 
> Anybody got any specific recommendations?
> 
> Two that have caught my eye>>>
> 
> http://www.amazon.co.uk/Alpha-Omega...e=UTF8&qid=1431605143&sr=1-2&keywords=xenakis
> 
> View attachment 69660
> 
> 
> http://www.amazon.co.uk/Orchestral-...e=UTF8&qid=1431605282&sr=1-6&keywords=xenakis
> 
> View attachment 69661


I had the same dilemma a few years ago, when trying to decide between exactly these two sets. I chose Tamayo/Luxembourg on Timpani, the lower one, because they are all highly acclaimed new recordings of the orchestral œuvre. The upper set, Alpha and Omega, in my opinion, is a great set for those who don't already have a lot of Xenakis works in their collections. It spans his entire career and offers gems from all the genres Xenakis was active in: chamber, orchestral, percussion, electronic, etc. In my case, this set would have duplicated a lot of stuff I already had and would not have gotten me a lot of the things I'd never heard, but was after collecting.

I would also suggest that you have a look at the excellent Xenakis series on Mode. I have about 4-5 of them already. These new recordings can help you collect even more works that are otherwise unavailable, in excellent new interpretations.


----------



## Guest

Ah, very helpful. I was actually also looking at the string music CDs as another notion.

















(Excellent covers too! Helps if your name begins with an X)


----------



## starthrower

brotagonist said:


> I had the same dilemma a few years ago, when trying to decide between exactly these two sets. I chose Tamayo/Luxembourg on Timpani, the lower one, because they are all highly acclaimed new recordings of the orchestral œuvre. The upper set, Alpha and Omega, in my opinion, is a great set for those who don't already have a lot of Xenakis works in their collections. It spans his entire career and offers gems from all the genres Xenakis was active in: chamber, orchestral, percussion, electronic, etc. In my case, this set would have duplicated a lot of stuff I already had and would not have gotten me a lot of the things I'd never heard, but was after collecting.
> 
> I would also suggest that you have a look at the excellent Xenakis series on Mode. I have about 4-5 of them already. These new recordings can help you collect even more works that are otherwise unavailable, in excellent new interpretations.


I also have the Timpani set, but I might have been happier with Alpha & Omega. The variety most likely would have a greater appeal for my listening habits. I don't play the Timpani set much.


----------



## brotagonist

starthrower said:


> I also have the Timpani set, but I might have been happier with Alpha & Omega. The variety most likely would have a greater appeal for my listening habits. I don't play the Timpani set much.


I've been a longtime fan of Xenakis-over 4 decades. I've got over a dozen albums already, most replacements for LPs I used to own, so I was really excited to have the opportunity to get some less known orchestral works and new recordings of many of my old favourites.


----------



## Guest

brotagonist said:


> I would also suggest that you have a look at the excellent Xenakis series on Mode. I have about 4-5 of them already. These new recordings can help you collect even more works that are otherwise unavailable, in excellent new interpretations.


I've just ordered the two Mode CDs I highlighted in my previous post.

:tiphat: for the heads-up!


----------



## Morimur

*New Xenakis Release*

*Iannis Xenakis: IX (Kuniko)*


----------



## Birdsong88

Xenakis is definitely one of the originals. if you are looking for a melody to hum along with, stay away. He composed music that pushed the instruments to their extreme. I have listened to his orchestral works, choral works, electronic works and works for the piano. Now onto his chamber works. Now where to begin?


----------



## ptr

Birdsong88 said:


> Xenakis is definitely one of the originals. if you are looking for a melody to hum along with, stay away. He composed music that pushed the instruments to their extreme. I have listened to his orchestral works, choral works, electronic works and works for the piano. Now onto his chamber works. Now where to begin?


Pleïades! His works for Percussion ensembles are ground braking (still!)

/ptr


----------



## Guest

Gosh! We're getting a positive tidal wave of praise for the more "contemporary" composers today! Bravo! May it continue! May I just add that I'm a big fan of *Beethoven*, too?


----------



## Guest

Birdsong88 said:


> Xenakis is definitely one of the originals. if you are looking for a melody to hum along with, stay away. He composed music that pushed the instruments to their extreme. I have listened to his orchestral works, choral works, electronic works and works for the piano. Now onto his chamber works. Now where to begin?


I've got the string quartet Mode label CD (JACK Quartet) which I could recommend wholeheartedly. No humming to be had.


----------



## Guest

TalkingHead said:


> Gosh! We're getting a positive tidal wave of positive praise for the more "contemporary" composers today! Bravo! May it continue! May I just add that I'm a big fan of *Beethoven*, too?


You can, but please join the back of the Disparagement Queue.


----------



## Guest

dogen said:


> You can, but please join the back of the Disparagement Queue.


Eh? I thought the "phoney war" was over, no?


----------



## Guest

TalkingHead said:


> Eh? I thought the "phoney war" was over, no?


Sorry, I must have missed that.

I'll pass the cookies round. :tiphat:


----------



## arpeggio

TalkingHead said:


> Gosh! We're getting a positive tidal wave of praise for the more "contemporary" composers today! Bravo! May it continue! May I just add that I'm a big fan of *Beethoven*, too?


It seems that this is one of the issues that drives the anti-modernists crazy. Not only do they not understand modern music but do not understand how it is possible to like Beethoven and Carter.


----------



## Guest

arpeggio said:


> It seems that this is one of the issues that drives the anti-modernists crazy. Not only do they not understand modern music but do not understand how it is possible to like Beethoven and Carter.


Does one need to be on one side of the fence or the other?

There is no fence!


----------



## ArtMusic

I haven't yet come across a piece by IX that I enjoy and after what I consider good listening efforts, I do not think his music have much offering. Maybe one day it might come back to me, I shall see.


----------



## Guest

ArtMusic said:


> I haven't yet come across a piece by IX that I enjoy and after what I consider good listening efforts, I do not think his music have much offering. Maybe one day it might come back to me, I shall see.


Fair enough, Art. Would you mind telling me what instrument you play? I might suggest an IX piece depending on your answer.


----------



## ArtMusic

TalkingHead said:


> Fair enough, Art. Would you mind telling me what instrument you play? I might suggest an IX piece depending on your answer.


I enjoy all if not nearly all standard orchestral instruments.


----------



## SeptimalTritone

Xenakis's Tetras is a good choice. For string quartet.


----------



## Guest

ArtMusic said:


> I enjoy all if not nearly all standard orchestral instruments.


I'll repeat my question: What instrument do you play?


----------



## Guest

SeptimalTritone said:


> Xenakis's Tetras is a good choice. For string quartet.


Thanks for that, Sept. Well worth the study.


----------



## ComposerOfAvantGarde

TalkingHead said:


> I'll repeat my question: What instrument do you play?


I think he might be saying 'enjoy' to mean that he has experience playing/enjoying playing all major orchestral instruments.


----------



## ComposerOfAvantGarde

I think some of his most exciting music is his orchestral music, _Ata_ might be a great place to start for ArtMusic, considering you like Stravinsky's Rite of Spring. It has the same kind of earthy, tribal brutality.


----------



## Dim7

TalkingHead said:


> I'll repeat my question: What instrument do you play?


Can Answering A Question With An Answer Unrelated To The Question Be A Music Instrument?


----------



## ArtMusic

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> I think some of his most exciting music is his orchestral music, _Ata_ might be a great place to start for ArtMusic, considering you like Stravinsky's Rite of Spring. It has the same kind of earthy, tribal brutality.


*Ata* sounds more musical and it reminded me of Bartok SQ techniques. Very dramatic sounds actually.


----------



## GioCar

A piece that I discovered quite recently and blown me away is "_Nuits"_ (1968) for 12 voices a cappella, from this CD set box (borrowed by a friend of mine)










I haven't seen it mentioned in the thread (the piece, not the CD set box) but it deserves to be considered among his most "moving" works, imo. What he's done with 12 human voices is just amazingly incredible.
I've read the piece is dedicated to political prisoners.


----------



## Xenakiboy

*A personal message to Iannis (even though he died)*

Ok Xenakis, my buddy. I've heard/or own almost everything you've written. You are my personal favorite composer, I've loved everything you've done (apart from the high frequency UPIC and Gendy experiments). Since I discovered your music many years ago, you've been everything I've wanted in music that other music lacked. Your theories and concepts are always in the back of my mind and I can happily say that I'm obsessed with your music (even though I do listen to many other composers).


----------



## Vaneyes

Jack Quartet tribute to *Xenakis*.

https://www.theguardian.com/music/2017/feb/27/jack-quartet-review-wigmore-hall-iannis-xenakis

http://seenandheard-international.com/2017/02/the-jack-quartet-launch-the-wigmore-halls-xenakis-day/

https://twitter.com/jackquartet?lang=en

Related: Recorded 2009, 2011.


----------



## Pugg

Xenakiboy said:


> Ok Xenakis, my buddy. I've heard/or own almost everything you've written. You are my personal favorite composer, I've loved everything you've done (apart from the high frequency UPIC and Gendy experiments). Since I discovered your music many years ago, you've been everything I've wanted in music that other music lacked. Your theories and concepts are always in the back of my mind and I can happily say that I'm obsessed with your music (even though I do listen to many other composers).


How are you doing, long time no see......


----------



## ST4

Pugg said:


> How are you doing, long time no see......


lol you replied to a comment from may last year 

How much Xenakis have you listened to Pugg? :tiphat:


----------



## ST4

It's a little rough in areas (performance wise) but a good video of one of my favorite chamber works, such a fun piece


----------



## Pugg

ST4 said:


> lol you replied to a comment from may last year
> 
> How much Xenakis have you listened to Pugg? :tiphat:


Greetings, my friend. We are all interested in the future, for that is where you and I are going to spend the rest of our lives.


----------



## KenOC

Pugg said:


> Greetings, my friend. We are all interested in the future, for that is where you and I are going to spend the rest of our lives.


You spend WAY too much time watching bad movies! :lol:


----------



## Pugg

KenOC said:


> You spend WAY too much time watching bad movies! :lol:


It's a quote I read somewhere.


----------



## ST4

Pugg said:


> It's a quote I read somewhere.


From a movie you need to see 

Btw, you should join in more over there Don Carlo, it'd be nice :tiphat:


----------



## Pugg

ST4 said:


> From a movie you need to see
> 
> Btw, you should join in more over there Don Carlo, it'd be nice :tiphat:


I not sure I follow you there.....


----------



## ST4

Pugg said:


> I not sure I follow you there.....


Yeah, you enjoy the current opera listening, no shame in that 

But it should be a party, a bunch of good ole friends hanging out :tiphat:

Btw, how much Xenakis have you heard?


----------



## Pugg

> Yeah, you enjoy the current opera listening, no shame in that


Are you on speed?



> ut it should be a party, a bunch of good ole friends hanging out :tiphat:


I am very selective in friends.



> Btw, how much Xenakis have you heard?


Enough to confess all thing I didn't do.

By the way, do you sleep like ever?


----------



## KenOC

Pugg said:


> It's a quote I read somewhere.


Just in case you're REALLY not kidding, it's from Criswell's introduction to Ed Wood's masterpiece, _Plan 9 from Outer Space_. Things only go downhill from there.


----------



## Pugg

KenOC said:


> Just in case you're REALLY not kidding, it's from Criswell's introduction to Ed Wood's masterpiece, _Plan 9 from Outer Space_. Things only go downhill from there.


Thank you KenOC, much appreciated.


----------



## ST4

Pugg said:


> Are you on speed?


Maybe yes, maybe no, sometimes maybe 



Pugg said:


> I am very selective in friends.


Don't be too careful or else you won't have any, no a nice way to live 



Pugg said:


> Enough to confess all thing I didn't do.
> 
> By the way, do you sleep like ever?


If you like Ravel/Debussy/Bartok you'll like the stuff he composed before he started going all radical '20th century icon' in the 50s. There's a few cool piano pieces and a very interesting piece for soprano + piano that sounds like nothing you would have heard from him. 

Do I ever sleep? I wish. Some days like a baby, other days no sleep at all, like last night. Worst sleep ever, the weather over here is TERRIBLE


----------



## Pugg

> Don't be too careful or else you won't have any, no a nice way to live


Don't worry, my real life comes first, happily married, nice house, good business and the most faithful friends one can want.
I wish you the same, you would sleep lots better.


----------



## ST4

Pugg said:


> Don't worry, my real life comes first, happily married, nice house, good business and the most faithful friends one can want.


I hope they are all treating you well, sounds lovely. What kind of business? :tiphat:



Pugg said:


> I wish you the same, you would sleep lots better.


Thank you Pugg


----------



## ST4

Another awesome work that I sense a lot of people properly haven't heard:


----------



## ST4

For Pugg (please listen once)


----------



## ST4

And Pugg, for some Ravel (you won't believe your ears)


----------



## David OByrne

Hello ST4, I saw your unlistenable thread and saw Xenakis mentioned (who I've only just heard about now), I just found this work and I really enjoy it






Thank you for introducing me ST4


----------



## David OByrne

ST4 said:


> And Pugg, for some Ravel (you won't believe your ears)


That is nice, very impressionistic?


----------



## ST4

David OByrne said:


> Hello ST4, I saw your unlistenable thread and saw Xenakis mentioned (who I've only just heard about now), I just found this work and I really enjoy it
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thank you for introducing me ST4


I love _Metastasis_ but it was only his first published work, highly innovative (nobody had done anything remotely like that before) but still far from his greatest works :tiphat:


----------



## Larkenfield

ST4 said:


> For Pugg (please listen once)


Liked this very much. At his best it's like Socrates and Aristotle listening to whatever he does from background of the ages. I like his Greek influenced music the best, not his violent generic noise.


----------



## ST4

Larkenfield said:


> not his violent generic noise.


You're free to elaborate, I'd love to hear why exactly you say this.

Regarding "Greek influenced music", here is a very simple breakdown of his career:

Early/withdrawn works:
*Bartok/Ravel injected pieces with obvious uses of Greek modes
*_Anastenaria Cycle_: A ritualistic post-Stravinsky/Orff theater work left incomplete, resulting in his game-changer: _Metastasis_

First period: 
*A series of over 20 works between (19)54 and 68, all exploring to different degrees architectural shapes and the musical manifestation physical laws (in select pieces)

Mature period:
*(19)68 to '87. Works developing an increasingly post-Stravinsky style. Rhythm becomes increasingly important, so does regular melodies here and there. Greek modes return, this period starts off with two significant works almost straight away "Oresteia" and "Kraanerg", both very special and unusual works of his.

Late Period:
*(19)87 to '97. 'Works become more and more fixated with slower tempos, even more obvious harmonies (think Messiaen) and a commonly more serene aesthetic. All culminating in his penultimate works "Sea Change" and "O-mega", both swansongs.

:tiphat:


----------



## ST4

Some recent videos:


----------



## ST4

There is this too, which gives an overview of the form and shapes in Pithoprakta:


----------



## Pugg

We've got your point


----------



## Portamento

Pugg said:


> We've got your point


This is a Xenakis thread. The _point_ is to appreciate said composer, and the YouTube videos are doing just that.


----------



## ST4

Portamento said:


> This is a Xenakis thread. The _point_ is to appreciate said composer, and the YouTube videos are doing just that.


Indeed, this thread is to discuss Xenakis :lol:


----------



## ST4

The very beautiful "Embellie" for solo viola :kiss:

I didn't even know there was a score video!


----------



## SONNET CLV

ST4 said:


> There is this too, which gives an overview of the form and shapes in Pithoprakta:


_Pithoprakta_ was the first Xenakis work I ever heard. I didn't even know what a score was at the time, but I knew I was in the presence of a master music maker when I heard the music. I've remained a Xenakis fan for well over half a century now, and I don't figure to lose my affection for the man's music. Listening to the _Pithoprakta_ now (via this graphical score) astounds me as to how fresh and "modern" it still is. (And I've just come off a listening session of new music from 2003 and 2004 on Donaueschinger Musiktage discs from col legno!) Great stuff!


----------



## millionrainbows

some guy said:


> I'm away from my collection at the moment, and I don't feel like going through the drudgery of calling up a list of his compositions to refresh my memory. So I'll just say that _Pithoprakta_ was a big favorite of ours back in the day. _Orient-Occident_ is very nice, along the lines of Varese's _Poeme electronique,_ but _Bohor_ is the truly radical early electroacoustic piece of his. An early electroacoustic minimal piece. (But don't think "repetition of small cells." That's only one kind of minimalism.) And _Kraanerg_'s a pretty big piece, in many ways.


Hey some guy, you got any suggestions that aren't based on old out-of-print vinyl?


----------



## Vasks

That Nonesuch LP that contains Bohor I and Orient-Occident is a favorite of mine. It's worth scouring the www to find it, millionrain.


----------



## ST4

Vasks said:


> That Nonesuch LP that contains Bohor I and Orient-Occident is a favorite of mine. It's worth scouring the www to find it, millionrain.


Oh god, I've listened to that electronic collection so many times :kiss::kiss:


----------



## ST4

SONNET CLV said:


> _Pithoprakta_ was the first Xenakis work I ever heard. I didn't even know what a score was at the time, but I knew I was in the presence of a master music maker when I heard the music. I've remained a Xenakis fan for well over half a century now, and I don't figure to lose my affection for the man's music. Listening to the _Pithoprakta_ now (via this graphical score) astounds me as to how fresh and "modern" it still is. (And I've just come off a listening session of new music from 2003 and 2004 on Donaueschinger Musiktage discs from col legno!) Great stuff!


As one commented said, the actual notated score is where the money is. The kinds of rhythms he has spread and reused in that work are incredible. Pithoprakta is an excellent example of how to integrate overlapping rhythms many times over without repeating.

It's hard to explain, you'd need to see the notation. I love this work, though as I've already stated in this thread, the mature, mid-late works are his best IMO :tiphat:


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## EddieRUKiddingVarese

Good stuff give me some more


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## ST4

For you Eddie, this awesome Piano Concerto you'll love: :cheers:


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## ST4

I got the score to that piano concerto too, such a fun read


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## hpowders

EddieRUKiddingVarese said:


> Good stuff give me some more


I have a great answer, but.....


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## ST4

Xenakiboy said:


> Ok Xenakis, my buddy. I've heard/or own almost everything you've written. You are my personal favorite composer, I've loved everything you've done (apart from the high frequency UPIC and Gendy experiments). Since I discovered your music many years ago, you've been everything I've wanted in music that other music lacked. Your theories and concepts are always in the back of my mind and I can happily say that I'm obsessed with your music (even though I do listen to many other composers).


I second this :tiphat:


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## ST4

hpowders said:


> I have a great answer, but.....


You fell asleep and forgot what you where going to type? :lol:


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## ST4

A "rare" Xenakis piece, this piece is really a rare occurrence in his catalog (the only other piece with such disparate uses of timbre and pitch, is Eonta). His early period is so fascinating:


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## ST4

More Xenakis for people to dig into, there are an endless well of amazing pieces:


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## ST4

I think many people would be really surprised if they heard a piece like "_A Hélène_" (for choir), considering most people have only heard the opening of Metastasis, switched it off and decided to banish him from their entire musical world :lol:


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## ST4

Here's a gift, one of the most beautiful quartets of all time <3 :kiss:


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## Capeditiea

bumpong this. since xenakis is amazing.


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## St Matthew

Capeditiea said:


> bumpong this. since xenakis is amazing.


I share your praise but also find it odd that he doesn't get enough attention on this forum, maybe TC is just caught by the anti-dissonance bug?


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## Capeditiea

*nods, here i am just now realizing i typoed bumping... :O

dissonance is where it is at.  it makes music more spectacular.


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## EddieRUKiddingVarese

Good to see St matt


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## millionrainbows

Now, Palimpsest (1979). This one has to do with scales that Xenakis devised. Excellent recording and performance, good liner notes.


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## millionrainbows

Recorded in 1965. Excellent piano player, and excellent brass. I wonder, any relation to the other Takahashi?


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## Janspe

I am pleased to report that I have finally started exploring the work of Xenakis (or should I say Ξενάκης, looks way cooler...) and it has been a great success so far! I have mainly concentrated on a select few orchestral works, but a few chamber and solo pieces have been caught in my radar as well. The most recent encounter was the orchestral work _Jonchaies _ which moved me very deeply. Xenakis' way of unleashing a lot of sound from the orchestra makes me feel euphoric, there's just so much power and energy in his works and it doesn't feel superficial at all.

I wonder how I should start approaching his music in a more organized way... I tend to do big "composer projects" during which I listen to everything that one single composer wrote, but I'm currently very busy with Bartók using that method and don't really have time for another one. Sometimes I hate my brain, why does all listening have to be so systematic!


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## starthrower

Sometimes it's good to go all out with one composer until interest wanes. I did that with Bach last month.

I'm not sure if there's an optimal way to listen to Xenakis? I was lucky to buy the orchestral set on the Timpani label when it was available.


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## flamencosketches

I almost wish I could listen like that, so my listening could have more focus (and, some might argue, more depth). But whenever I do, I burn myself out really quick on that composer's music. Frequently, the only thing I ever want to listen to is Mahler, but if I listen to too much of his music in one day, or one week, the "magic" starts to wear off. There are other composers that this applies to for me as well, but Mahler comes to mind because I am taking a self-imposed break due to recent over-listening. 

As for Xenakis, I feel like his music is something one must really immerse oneself into. I think his musical language is among the most ruggedly individualistic in all music. You can't just pick it up here and there and run with it.... can you? I don't know, I've never given his music a fair shot. I've heard bits and pieces and have never been impressed. I'm sure it's just a matter of it all "clicking", but meanwhile I have other "difficult" composers I'm working on getting into... one day...


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## millionrainbows

There's so much in Xenakis' music that is, while not fully 'indeterminate,' looser and more open to performance variations than orthodox classical, and that makes each new interpretation an adventure. The same thing with Ligeti and Cage.

Conversely, that's what makes works on tape by Stockhausen, Maderna, Xenakis, and others appealing: they are fixed, unchanging statements, and this gives them a certain orthodox charm.


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## starthrower

My wife put on disc one from the Timpani orchestral box this morning at 8:30 and I really enjoyed it. It's bold and adventurous music. I was surprised how much I enjoyed it at that hour of the morning. But I find it easy to enjoy the music of an artist with the convictions and determination of a man like Xenakis.


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## millionrainbows

starthrower said:


> My wife put on disc one from the Timpani orchestral box this morning at 8:30 and I really enjoyed it. It's bold and adventurous music. I was surprised how much I enjoyed it at that hour of the morning. But I find it easy to enjoy the music of an artist with the convictions and determination of a man like Xenakis.


That's my idea of domestic bliss.


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## flamencosketches

millionrainbows said:


> That's my idea of domestic bliss.


Agreed. You landed a good one, Star. :lol:


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## starthrower

flamencosketches said:


> Agreed. You landed a good one, Star. :lol:


She's the true avant garde warrior in our house and in life. I just sit around reading and listening to music.


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