# Beethoven Bagatelles



## Chad (Jan 11, 2014)

I've been obsessing over Op.33 Bagatelles. However my general observation about all Beethovens' Bagatelles is that they are creative gems, spontaineous and 'in the moment' music. They must certainly were his springboard of ideas that lead to his larger formal works. I reject the notion that they were ideas that couldn't be developed into larger works. but rather they were complete in and of themselves in sculpting and creating a mood, fancy, feeling or visual effect for the audience. The Op 33 is currently my favorite but that could change next month.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

I think that op 119 is roughly from the same time period as op 33. Op 126 much later.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Yes. The Bagatelles are indeed creative gems. I have them as played on fortepiano. Love them!


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

I think this performance of op 126/3 by Gould is very fine. He recorded these bagatelles several times -- it's such a shame there's no reliable Gould discography


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## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

Mandryka said:


> I think that op 119 is roughly from the same time period as op 33. Op 126 much later.


My understanding is that op. 119 is a collection of pieces from the early 1790s and before, some of them modified for this collection. The Op. 126 bagatelles were composed as a group, which may be why they seem to reinforce each other when I hear them.


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

Ukko said:


> My understanding is that op. 119 is a collection of pieces from the early 1790s and before, some of them modified for this collection. The Op. 126 bagatelles were composed as a group, which may be why they seem to reinforce each other when I hear them.


The seven Bagatelles,Op.33 date from 1799-1802. Of the eleven Bagatelles Op.119, the first six date from 1822. The last five are earlier, perhaps composed in 1820. The six Bagatelles, Op.126, were probably composed in 1823.


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## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

moody said:


> The seven Bagatelles,Op.33 date from 1799-1802. Of the eleven Bagatelles Op.119, the first six date from 1822. The last five are earlier, perhaps composed in 1820. The six Bagatelles, Op.126, were probably composed in 1823.


We must have read different sources. When I inquired of the composer, he didn't reply.


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## Ingélou (Feb 10, 2013)

Probably in a bad mood that day...


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

Ukko said:


> We must have read different sources. When I inquired of the composer, he didn't reply.


My favourite recording is Denis Matthews on Vanguard and that's taken from the sleeve note--I don't carry the info in my head.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

moody said:


> The seven Bagatelles,Op.33 date from 1799-1802. Of the eleven Bagatelles Op.119, the first six date from 1822. The last five are earlier, perhaps composed in 1820. The six Bagatelles, Op.126, were probably composed in 1823.


It's always complicated though with Beethoven. One thing I once picked up in a discussion with someone is that the sketchbooks from 1790 have parts of op 119 in them, at least in some form.

Is there any discussion or commentary on what's in Beethoven's sketchbooks in English or French?


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

They are often written-off as trifles, but I have a respect for them after playing the G minor one as a learning piece. I think I'm talking about the "Seven" Bagatelles.


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

millionrainbows said:


> They are often written-off as trifles, but I have a respect for them after playing the G minor one as a learning piece. I think I'm talking about the "Seven" Bagatelles.


French ~ Bagatelle

Definition: trinket, small item; trifle

Je t'ai acheté une petite bagatelle - I bought you a little trinket.

Ça coûte la bagatelle de 10 euros - It costs a trifling/mere 10 euros.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

"Bagatelle" does sound like a French pastry.


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## hreichgott (Dec 31, 2012)

Beethoven did write bagatelles but he was incapable of writing trifles.


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

hreichgott said:


> Beethoven did write bagatelles but he was incapable of writing trifles.


... but not incapable of writing "small items."

Tchaikovsky's _The Seasons_ are the result of a commission from a monthly music journal, the job to produce one new piece to appear in installments over the course of twelve months. Tchaikovsky consistently forgot about this small and running by the calender task, and his servant had to remind the composer -- at the end of the month -- that another piece was due. 
Tchaikovsky then quickly wrote 'the next installment.' This netted twelve little pieces of moderate difficulty which concert artists find appealing enough that they take pleasure in performing and recording them.

Even if a gemstone is large, it is relatively "small." The Hope Diamond readily fits in the palm of even a small hand


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## Guest (Feb 17, 2014)

millionrainbows said:


> [...] They are often written-off as trifles [... )


Well *Rainbows*, that has probably something not a *million* miles away to do with the meaning of *bagatelle* in French: a *trifle*, a small thing, a knick-knack. Don't let the titles detract their value.
Interestingly (knowing Beethoven), the French expression *être porté sur la bagatelle* translates as "to be fond of the women, a bit of a philanderer". Now you know.


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## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

hreichgott said:


> Beethoven did write bagatelles but he was incapable of writing trifles.


Op. 126 and most of Op. 119 do not involve trifles. "Rage Over a Lost Penny" is a trifle.


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## GioCar (Oct 30, 2013)

From Don Giovanni (Mozart, Da Ponte).
Recitative Don Giovanni/Masetto, just before the aria "metà di voi qua vadano" act II

_(*Bagatelle!*) Bravissimo Masetto!_
_anch'io con voi m'unisco_
_per fargliela a quel birbo di padrone:_
_or senti un po' qual è la mia intenzione.
_
_( *What nonsense! * ) Well said, Masetto!
....
_

Of course Beethoven's Bagatelles are everything else but nonsense...


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## Chad (Jan 11, 2014)

All the Bagatelles of Beethoven speak to his improvisational ability, his sponaneity and his ability to record what he felt "in the moment" Forget about the stereotype of him laboring and struggling over larger more emotive works. they seem to contain more of aninsight into his creative self


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

I remember hearing Brendel performing a group of the late Bagatelles. It was a WOW! moment for me.


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## Chad (Jan 11, 2014)

Brendel might have the best Beethoven sensilbelities ever. My favorite interpreter


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

You know I rarely see ANYTHING written on TC involving the Beethoven Bagatelles. They are terrific little gems!!


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## Tchaikov6 (Mar 30, 2016)

hpowders said:


> You know I rarely see ANYTHING written on TC involving the Beethoven Bagatelles. They are terrific little gems!!


Yes, beautiful pieces, and much easier to play than most of the piano sonatas.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Tchaikov6 said:


> Yes, beautiful pieces, and much easier to play than most of the piano sonatas.


Some of them are difficult to play. Brendel is fine. I have someone doing them on fortepiano, but I can't think of her name.


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## Tchaikov6 (Mar 30, 2016)

hpowders said:


> *Some of them are difficult to play*. Brendel is fine. I have someone doing them on fortepiano, but I can't think of her name.


True, but nowhere near the difficult of Hammerklavier Sonata, 32nd, Appassionata, Waldstein, and others.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Tchaikov6 said:


> True, but nowhere near the difficult of Hammerklavier Sonata, 32nd, Appassionata, Waldstein, and others.


 One can't compare playing miniatures to full scale sonatas where an interpretive line must be kept across two to four movements.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Tchaikov6 said:


> Yes, beautiful pieces, and much easier to play than most of the piano sonatas.


100% agree, but I have list as long as my arm like this that I want to play.


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## ibrahim (Apr 29, 2017)

I'm not familiar with the opuses 33 & 119 but I have recently been listening to opus 126 -- LvB's last statement on the piano. These six pieces are certainly more "playful" in tone than the late sonatas but they're also intense. My fave so far is no.4.


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## brianvds (May 1, 2013)

ibrahim said:


> I'm not familiar with the opuses 33 & 119 but I have recently been listening to opus 126 -- LvB's last statement on the piano. These six pieces are certainly more "playful" in tone than the late sonatas but they're also intense. My fave so far is no.4.


Yup, my favorite too: that dreamy middle section is particularly magical.
Beethoven's bagatelles are to some extent his version of the Chopin preludes: whole musical worlds condensed into brief moments.


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## Larkenfield (Jun 5, 2017)

Op. 126 are my favorite Beethoven bagatelles... favorite Beethoven... especially when performed by Brendel, because each one sounds so quintessentially Beethoven to me at that time in his life. I can easily imagine that he wrote them with a twinkle in his eyes and that they should be performed that way with a certain sense of thoughtfulness and play rather than sounding labored, too serious or heavy. Gould's performance of the Andante is a little too slow and drawn out for me, as Beethoven marked it _Andante, Cantabile e grazioso_ ("Moderately slow, singing and graceful").


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## Highwayman (Jul 16, 2018)

As a dauntless Kempff advocate I must admit that Mr. Schnabel owns these Bagatelles, he is very much connected to these little marvelous gems I gather...


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Highwayman said:


> As a dauntless Kempff advocate I must admit that Mr. Schnabel owns these Bagatelles, he is very much connected to these little marvelous gems I gather...


There's a live op 126 by Kempff at Salzburg on Orfeo which I very much like.


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## Merl (Jul 28, 2016)

Chad said:


> Brendel might have the best Beethoven sensilbelities ever. My favorite interpreter


I have Osborne and Brendel in these and, whilst I love both, the Brendel is so beautifully played and recorded that its hard to beat. The Bagatelles are lovely little gems.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Some of the music is very physical, op 126/2 for example. It reminds me of The Rite of Spring.


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## CDs (May 2, 2016)

I look forward to hearing for the first time the Six Bagatelles op 126 by Yevgeny Sudbin.


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## ibrahim (Apr 29, 2017)

No. #6 is also sublime.


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## Rogerx (Apr 27, 2018)

CDs said:


> I look forward to hearing for the first time the Six Bagatelles op 126 by Yevgeny Sudbin.
> 
> View attachment 113790


Splendid idea going to spin it later


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