# Beethoven symphonies on period instruments?



## JSBach85

I am not a big fan of music composed on Classical/Romantic period but still I like Beethoven symphonies. I would be interested in recordings played on period instruments, maybe Gardiner or Hogwood, those conductors I am familiar with. I am seeking for opinions, thanks.


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## Merl

Krivine. Excellent set. The 9th (as usual) sounds a bit under powered on period instruments but is still a decent performance but 1-4 and 6&7 are excellent performances.


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## Merl

Oops double post... Sorry. Delete plrase


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## Granate

No idea until January. I like Gardiner quite a lot.


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## Heck148

Merl said:


> The 9th (as usual) sounds a bit under powered on period instruments


They all sound under powered on period instruments.


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## Triplets

I've heard the Gardiner set and the Krivine sets but own the Hogwood. Beethoven for me is a fairly indestructible and "conductor proof" composer. It would take real hatchet job of a recording to make me stop listening and I can usually find something recommendable about any recording, although I have clear favorites. On period instruments Hogwood for whatever reason just floated my boat a bit more. Perhaps it is because it was one of the first HIPP cycle, and some of the rawness of the playing still come through, or it could just be that Hogwood responds a lot better to Beethoven than he did to Mozart, which I find him to be somewhat of a routiner. Hogwood's Haydn is excellent as well.


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## Mandryka

JSBach85 said:


> I am not a big fan of music composed on Classical/Romantic period but still I like Beethoven symphonies. I would be interested in recordings played on period instruments, maybe Gardiner or Hogwood, those conductors I am familiar with. I am seeking for opinions, thanks.











..............


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## KenOC

Heck148 said:


> They all sound under powered on period instruments.


To me, the smaller ensemble doesn't reduce the power of these symphonies. The first movement of Gardiner's 5th, for instance, is positively terrifying.

Overall, Gardiner's set is still my favorite symphony cycle, HIP or non-HIP. I prefer other conductors in some symphonies, but as an integral cycle, Gardiner is my go-to.


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## gardibolt

Gardiner and Hogwood have the merit of including all of the repeats indicated by the composer, which almost none of the non-HIP conductors do (I think Abbado includes them all or nearly all). Gardiner's rendition is a bit more lively than Hogwood's and slightly better sound. I like having them both but if I had to pick one it'd probably be Gardiner. I don't find him underpowered in the least.


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## Bulldog

Gardiner is also my favorite HIP Beethoven. As for degree of power, I think Gardiner is sufficiently powerful; don't forget there's a volume control on all audio equipment.


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## Granate

Parla said:


> Generally speaking, if the repeat is a totally identical part of a segment of the score, it is up to the performer (hence to the listener?) to decide whether it has to be omitted. If it looks as an identical part but, actually, there are some differences (even the slightest and normally unnoticed ones), the repeats have to be performed. Besides, if the composer clearly indicates that the repeats have to be performed (for whatever obvious or not reason), they should be performed.
> 
> If you wish, you may try an experiment with two 99% identical repeats in a well known work. Take the second and last movements of Schubert's "Trout" Quintet. The movements are constructed on two totally symmetrical and identical segments. The only difference is few transpositions passing practically unnoticed. So far, these "repeats" are considered as integral part of the work and they never omitted. So, you may listen to these two movements with and without the repeats, so you may see whether they are needed or not or to what extent.


From the Gramophone forum...

Interesting... but why would the repeats be so important for a listener? In my first compared listen of Beethoven symphonies I don't remember even thinking about performers not following carefully the repeats.


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## Judith

Wasn't there a TV programme on BBC a while ago with Gardiner about Beethovens 5th symphony performed on period instruments?


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## Heck148

KenOC said:


> To me, the smaller ensemble doesn't reduce the power of these symphonies.


it's not just the smaller ensemble - it's the instruments themselves just don't produce the desired sonority....I actually like Beethoven, Mozart, Haydn played with smaller string sections, and modern instruments....you get the best of both worlds - the clarity of texture, the detail, and you also get the huge dynamic range, the powerful sonority.


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## wkasimer

My favorite HIP sets are Krivine's and Immerseel's. And while I don't believe that it's technically HIP, Paavo Jarvi's cycle is also excellent and heavily HIP influenced.


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## Becca

I have been impressed with Jos Van Immerseel and Anima Eterna even though I am not normally an HIP-ite in that repertoire. Having said that, I skipped his 9th.

P.S. I don't know about a program with Gardiner doing the 5th but there certainly is a video of the performance.


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## Merl

I've got all the HIP sets and the only place many of them fall down is the 9th. For me, it needs to explode outta the traps and hit me hard. That's how it plays for me. So, for the 9th only, I much prefer big-band Beethoven with plenty of guts and noisy timpani in that first movement. The speed doesn't matter to me (unless it's excruciatingly slow). I just need some 'umph'. The least successful of the HIP sets at achieving this is Herreweghe (awful 9th). Others sound sufficient in the 9th and are excellent sets (Immerseel, Krivine, Goodman) but only Gardiner and Hogwood seem to grasp the power aspect of the start of the 9th. Overall, of the HIP sets, I find Gardiner's cycle the most consistent but Immerseel's 6th and Krivine's 4th are just terrific.


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## JSBach85

Thank you for your recommendations. After listening some symphonies of Gardiner on youtube I think I will go with Gardiner. It is an amazing experience and pleasure to listen such works in an adequate tempo and with the excellent conducting of Gardiner. I have also been interested in classical/romantic works played on period instruments and I clearly rather prefer this performance practice over modern instruments.


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## JSBach85

What is your favourite "Eroica" (symphony No.3) recording in period instruments?

I am considering getting this one:

Le Concert des Nations / Jordi Savall


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## wkasimer

JSBach85 said:


> What is your favourite "Eroica" (symphony No.3) recording in period instruments?
> 
> I am considering getting this one:
> 
> Le Concert des Nations / Jordi Savall


Not only is this my favorite HIP Eroica, but it's also my favorite HIP recording of any Beethoven Symphony, and probably my favorite Eroica, regardless of HIP-ness.


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## KenOC

There’s a recording of the Eroica by Daniel Grossman and the Ensemble 28 – the exact 28 instruments that first played the symphony at Lobkowitz’s palace in 1805. HIP redux! It’s quite good actually. Used to be you could get it on iTunes, but I haven’t checked.


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## SixFootScowl

There is always this one:









or the delux set that includes the overtures and Missa Solemnis









some say it is a strange cycle mainly I think because the microphone setup was not done right or something like that.


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## Ras

JSBach85 said:


> What is your favourite "Eroica" (symphony No.3) recording in period instruments?]


*Frans Brüggen's live recording from Rotterdam, 2011 on the Glossa label* is my favorite period recording of the Eroica - It's big - it's mean - it's slow - it's a beast -- it's Beethoven!







Unfortunately the rest of the symphonies in that Bruggen box aren't very exciting.

You can hear it on Spotify:


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## Guest

I have and adore Immersaal. For a long time I've been mulling Hogwood's set and Bruggen's Philips set. Close to the barrier on both, but not over the top yet. I listened to the Gardiner samples and it sounded so conventional, as if Szell found himself in front of the PI orchestra. (Why does your horn look so funny, sir? Is your proper one under repair? I hope it's fixed in time for the concert!)


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## Josquin13

The Eroica performance by Daniel Grossmann and Ensemble 28 (that KenOC mentions) is interesting. I'd add that it's actually recorded in the same venue where Beethoven conducted the work's premiere--with the same number of players that Beethoven used, 28, as Ken points out. Which makes the symphony sound lighter and more nimble (& transparent) than is usual. When I first heard this performance, I was reminded of Mendelssohn, & thought, "Oh, so that's what Mendelssohn was hearing as a boy...". Before that experience, I don't think I'd quite realized just how strongly influenced the young Mendelssohn was by Beethoven (& the Eroica).

My one problem with the Grossmann performance, however, is that he takes the funeral march faster than Beethoven's metronome markings--bringing it in at a speedy 11:11 (in comparison, Bruggen brings it in at 13:10 on his first studio recording--which is closer to the markings, I believe). It doesn't feel right to me. I wouldn't be surprised if this is the fastest Funeral march on record. So I'd suggest that you sample the movement first. Otherwise, it's a very good performance.

Along with the 3rd & 4th movements of the 5th & the 4th movement of the 9th, I consider the 1st movement of the Eroica to be among the most difficult, trickiest, & problematic movements in all of Beethoven's Nine to conduct well. & for me, most conductors come up short in this movement. In the past, I've liked Eroica recordings from Bernstein in NY, Scherchen, Van Kampen, Chailly, Toscanini, Matacic, Reiner, & Van Beinum (live), and to a slightly lesser extent, Jochum Concertgebouw, Masur Leipzig first cycle, Manze, Leibowitz, & Harnoncourt COE:






















The only period performances I've liked are Bruggen's Eroica in his first Philips studio cycle:https://www.amazon.com/Beethoven-Sy...=1536772031&s=Music&sr=1-1-catcorr&ref=sr_1_1 & https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B075ZV92ZZ/ref=dm_ws_sp_ps_dp, and Immerseel's with Anima Eterna:



. If I were pressed to mention another, Savall's Eroica is good too (I've not heard the Hanover Band). There's also the Eroica that Gardiner conducts in the film "Eroica", which listeners seem to prefer to his studio version on Archiv, & I agree it's better: 



. However, this tends to be a symphony that the period boys don't do well with, IMO, along with the 4th, 5th, & 9th, where they likewise mostly all fall short (while conversely, they all shine in the Handel influenced 7th, especially Immerseel). So, if you want HIP, I'd probably recommend listening to Chailly, Harnoncourt, or Manze, & maybe Leibowitz & Nelson instead--that is, on modern instruments (with the possible exceptions being Bruggen 1, Immerseel, and maybe Savall on period instruments).

My two cents.


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## Triplets

JSBach85 said:


> What is your favourite "Eroica" (symphony No.3) recording in period instruments?
> 
> I am considering getting this one:
> 
> Le Concert des Nations / Jordi Savall


I own that. Very enjoyable but a bit to lightweight for me. The Eroica should kick you in the gut, and not gently rub your shoulders


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## Merl

This is an sbsolutely barnstorming Eroica from a good but flawed set.









Otherwise the Eroica is blessed with many very good (or better) HIP performances. Savall is superb, Lan Shui is just as excellent, Immerserl is impressive. On modern instruments, but in HIP stylee, Norrington's second crack st the Eroica on Hannsler is fantastic and finally Haselbock in his Resound Beethoven series is good but Bruggen does it better than Haselbock. Dausgaard is one of my favourites at the moment. Outstanding Eroica.


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## Merl

If you want a slightly historical option on 'modern' instruments, played at a a breakneck pace, then try any of Scherchen's recordings. His live Milano set is not the greatest sound but it's thrilling stuff and must be the quickest Eroica ever. His Westminster studio Eroica is thrilling too but has way better sound and is played at a (slightly) slower pace but still comes in as one of the fastest recorded. The final movement is frenetic.


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