# Karajan's Sibelius ; DG or Warner?



## Ned Low (Jul 29, 2020)

Greetings friends or fellow Sibelians rather. :tiphat: I'm in love with Maestro's 5th with DG ;the slow movement used to make me cry back when i discovered it. I have his 4-7 with DG, violin concerto included as well. But, how is it compared to the the ones with Warner? Are they equally good? Please, if you've listened to both, share your thoughts with us.


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## joen_cph (Jan 17, 2010)

I have both sets. Some of the early Warner/Emi stuff is in mono, but not the later set. The repertoire is mainly the same, but the Warner includes Symphonies 1+2, En Saga, and Karelia. I definitely prefer DG, I like the sound better, and the music-making seems more engaged to me. Especially fine DGs are symphonies 4, 6 and 7, Tapiola, and the Violin Concerto.

You will however also see opinions contrary to mine.


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## RobertJTh (Sep 19, 2021)

Sibelius loved Karajan's performances - but then again, he loved everyone who played his music. Put one of his symphonies on your roster and you'd be BFF with the big old baldy.
That said, of all the vintage Sibelians (Beecham, Kajanus, Schneevoigt etc.) Karajan is the one who brought his music into the stereo age. So that alone makes it essential listening.

The DG cycle is a safe choice, in good sound, and in the complete set you also get great performances by Karajan's disciple Okko Kamu of symhonies 1, 2 and 3 (which deviate quite a lot from his mentor's style, and not in a bad way).
Yes, the older EMI set include Karajan's versions of symphonies 1 and 2 but the fact that he omitted 1, 2 and 3 from his DG cycle tells you something: he was never that great with the early symphonies, and he wasn't very interested in them either. Why? Hard to understand since early Sibelius has a lot of Tchaikovsky influences - and Karajan loved Tschaikovsky.


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## JTS (Sep 26, 2021)

RobertJTh said:


> Sibelius loved Karajan's performances - but then again, he loved everyone who played his music. Put one of his symphonies on your roster and you'd be BFF with the big old baldy.
> That said, of all the vintage Sibelians (Beecham, Kajanus, Schneevoigt etc.) Karajan is the one who brought his music into the stereo age. So that alone makes it essential listening.
> 
> The DG cycle is a safe choice, in good sound, and in the complete set you also get great performances by Karajan's disciple Okko Kamu of symhonies 1, 2 and 3 (which deviate quite a lot from his mentor's style, and not in a bad way).
> Yes, the older EMI set include Karajan's versions of symphonies 1 and 2 but *the fact that he omitted 1, 2 and 3 from his DG cycle tells you something: *he was never that great with the early symphonies, and he wasn't very interested in them either. Why? Hard to understand since early Sibelius has a lot of Tchaikovsky influences - and Karajan loved Tschaikovsky.


I don't think it actually tells us much at all as he recorded the EMI stereo 1--2 after the DG and he never recorded the 3rd anyway. Sibelius preferred Karajan's recordings to Beecham's apparently


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## joen_cph (Jan 17, 2010)

Sibelius was very old and frail in the 1950s. But he also praised Ormandy's recordings, that spread across decades, and who met Sibelius about 5 times or so, and gave him his recordings as gifts.


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## RobertJTh (Sep 19, 2021)

JTS said:


> I don't think it actually tells us much at all as he recorded the EMI stereo 1--2 after the DG and he never recorded the 3rd anyway. Sibelius preferred Karajan's recordings to Beecham's apparently


I was referring to the Philharmonia recordings that predate the Berlin DG's - but I wasn't aware he remade the 2nd after the partial DG cycle.
Strange that he never cared much for the 3rd. One would expect that this symphony, with its emphasis on string textures would fit the BPO like a glove.


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## Kiki (Aug 15, 2018)

This is Karajan's Sibelius symphony discography that I know/have. 

1952 #5 Philharmonia Orchestra (EMI)
1953 #4 Philharmonia Orchestra (EMI)
1955 #6 Philharmonia Orchestra (EMI)
1955 #7 Philharmonia Orchestra (EMI)
1957 Live #5 Berliner Philharmoniker (Sony)
1960 #2 Philharmonia Orchestra (EMI)
1960 #5 Philharmonia Orchestra (EMI)
1965 #4 Berliner Philharmoniker (DG)
1965 #5 Berliner Philharmoniker (DG)
1967 #6 Berliner Philharmoniker (DG)
1967 #7 Berliner Philharmoniker (DG)
1976 #4 Berliner Philharmoniker (EMI)
1976 #5 Berliner Philharmoniker (EMI)
1980 #2 Berliner Philharmoniker (EMI)
1980 #6 Berliner Philharmoniker (EMI)
1981 #1 Berliner Philharmoniker (EMI)

If you love his DG #5, and if you have not heard his live Sony #5, you may want to track it down, as he is often leaner and meaner in the concert hall! It is a bit different from his other 3 studio recordings of #5. Beware: Sound is poor.

I am not a big fan of Karajan's Sibelius, but I do think all three of his #4s are awesome and his #7s very good.

DG's sound is forward. The early EMI is good for its vintage. The later EMI is more natural and not as pushy as the DG.


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## Malx (Jun 18, 2017)

Simple answer - both.


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## MatthewWeflen (Jan 24, 2019)

Ned Low said:


> Greetings friends or fellow Sibelians rather. :tiphat: I'm in love with Maestro's 5th with DG ;the slow movement used to make me cry back when i discovered it. I have his 4-7 with DG, violin concerto included as well. But, how is it compared to the the ones with Warner? Are they equally good? Please, if you've listened to both, share your thoughts with us.


I have listened to both extensively. I've reviewed both on my Karajan Review thread. The DG reviews start here:
The Grand Karajan Review Thread

Here's where the EMI Sibelius starts:
The Grand Karajan Review Thread

Both are very worthy. If you want it boiled down to a word apiece, DG=Mystery EMI=Explosiveness.


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## Vasks (Dec 9, 2013)

I've owned these LPs for many decades and love them to death


1960 #5 Philharmonia Orchestra (EMI)

1967 #6 Berliner Philharmoniker (DG)
1967 #7 Berliner Philharmoniker (DG)


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## Neo Romanza (May 7, 2013)

The earlier DG recordings are where its at for me. The EMI ones are a bit too smoothed over for my tastes or, at least, my view of Sibelius' music. I prefer a bit more rawness in Sibelius.


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## Knorf (Jan 16, 2020)

I mainly know the Berliner Philharmoniker recordings for Karajan's Sibelius. I have heard some of the Philharmonia accounts, but they didn't offer enough of anything more I wanted to hear to prefer them; to me they rather seem like sketches before the real art is done. But I know some people really like them, and I can hear why. I don't know them well enough to offer as much detail, so I'll focus my comments on the Berliner recordings.

For me, Karajan's Sibelius is some of the best there ever was. It's a wash between DG and EMI; there are (mostly) plusses and (very few) minuses to either set. I will say, in my opinion as someone who has listened to both many, many times, that it is not accurate to say that the Berliner EMI cycle is "smoothed over" compared to the DG recordings.

In some ways, the EMI recordings are more polished in execution (tighter ensemble, better intonation, cleaner attacks and releases), but that is completely different from what is usually meant by "smoothed over," and it's not possible for me to see any of that as a negative. In any case, there are still all of the accents, big dynamic ranges, very soft softs and powerfully intense louds, etc., between the two. The musical peaks and valleys _are not_ "smoothed over" in any meaningful way I can hear. For recording quality, I'd give a slight edge to the EMI, which is slightly warmer and wider.

From the DG Karajan Sibelius, I have the most affection for No. 7, a superb, profoundly philosophical account (and there is no Seventh from EMI and Berlin.) The Fourth from that set is very close. They're all excellent, frankly, and I enjoy the Kamu contributions for Nos. 1-3.

The EMI set includes the only Karajan studio recording of No. 1, and it's electrifying, among my all-time favorites. The EMI Berliner Philharmoniker recording of No. 6 is my all-time favorite Sixth, and is closest to the most perfect Sibelius recording among all of those I've heard. It's almost like a miracle: an icy cold mountain stream on a beautifully warm summer day, adorned with bright wildflowers, but still a hint of danger, as is the case in all wild places no matter how idyllic.

For No. 5, it's a tough call for me between the Berliner DG and EMI. Frankly, I can't call it. They're both very good. For the Fourth, I retain a slight preference for the DG set; only Berglund for me is comparably good as Karajan in the Fourth, but there are many great choices for the Fifth.

The EMI Berlin Second is regrettably not especially recommendable. Simply put, it's just too slow in the outer movements, although the second movement is quite wonderful. The fourth loses momentum far too much for this recording to be recommendable from my point of view. Bernstein with New York, for one, is much to be preferred.

The EMI Berliner set also includes _En Saga_, and that is my all-time favorite performance of that piece, which is among my favorite of Sibelius's tone poems.

As always, YMMV.


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## SearsPoncho (Sep 23, 2020)

I'm a huge fan of the EMI 4th and 5th Karajan did with the Berlin Philharmonic in the mid-70s. It might actually be the recording I've listened to the most, and I'm referring to any recording of anything. I prefer it over the DG recordings from the 60's, although those are also 1st rate performances. Karajan's recording of Tapiola with the Berlin Phil is also awesome.


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## Knorf (Jan 16, 2020)

SearsPoncho said:


> Karajan's recording of Tapiola with the Berlin Phil is also awesome.


He gave us three great studio recordings of _Tapiola_. My favorite is probably the digital recording from 1984.


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## SearsPoncho (Sep 23, 2020)

Knorf said:


> He gave us three great studio recordings of _Tapiola_. My favorite is probably the digital recording from 1984.


Yep. That's the one.


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## FrankinUsa (Aug 3, 2021)

I will give a simple answer. The DG/Sibelius recordings. The entirety has been considered in reference status for decades. Then find some other recordings from other conductors for the works not in the DG box. One suggestion,Szell for symphony 2. Either the Concertgebuow or with Cleveland. I’ve never been a big fan of symphony 1. There is a Honeck/Pittsburgh/Exton that actually held my attention. For a complete set I have the Bloomstedt/San Francisco. Whether some of these are available is questionable considering the mismanagement in many classical recording labels. I think the Karajan was recently reissued (both CD and BluRay).


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## Bruckner Anton (Mar 10, 2016)

Karajan is one of my favorite Sibelius interpreters of all time. For me, his early stereo #2 #5 with PO on EMI and his 1960s sibelius symphonies with BPO on DG are must-haves, especially the DG performances which are clean, vivid, sonorous and well-balanced. The string playing by BPO are simply unparalleled. 

As for sound quality, his late recordings are more spacious and natural, but his 1960s DG recordings are good enough for critical listening for me (his earlier EMI recording might be a little vintage-sounded).

BTW, dont forget to take Karajan's 1960s recording of Sibelius violin concerto with Ferras on DG. It is probably the most satisfying recording of the piece I have heard (due to the close-miking of the recording, the soloist could sound a bit too loud and powerful, which is the only problem I could find).

One more thing, if you are looking for a Sibelius symphony cycle on EMI of great sound and performance, Berglund's 1970s version might be a good choice.


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## MatthewWeflen (Jan 24, 2019)

Bruckner Anton said:


> Karajan is one of my favorite Sibelius interpreters of all time. For me, his early stereo #2 #5 with PO on EMI and his 1960s sibelius symphonies with BPO on DG are must-haves, especially the DG performances which are clean, vivid, sonorous and well-balanced. The string playing by BPO are simply unparalleled.
> 
> As for sound quality, his late recordings are more spacious and natural, but his 1960s DG recordings are good enough for critical listening for me (his earlier EMI recording might be a little vintage-sounded).
> 
> ...


The Ferras recording is a part of the new DG "Complete Karajan Sibelius" set. It is spectacular indeed.

If I were to recommend an alternate complete cycle in great sound it would be Paavo Berglund/Helsinki Philharmonic on Warner. The whole thing is an insane $10 on Presto right now.


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