# Are Bach's compositions the only thing that keeping the organ alive???



## Tarneem (Jan 3, 2022)

let's say that Bach never composed for the organ. would the organ become extinct or it becomes one of those obscure instruments like the recorder or lute??


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

The King of Instruments will never be obscure.


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## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

I believe some church services still use the organ, not for Bach either.


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

What about Jazz?


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## khoff999 (Oct 31, 2018)

Tarneem said:


> let's say that Bach never composed for the organ. would the organ become extinct or it becomes one of those obscure instruments like the recorder or lute??


 I assume you mean in classical music, because the organ is often used in rock, jazz, and blues.

I don't think that Bach never existing would have relegated classical organ to the dust bin. For instance, the French have had a continuous school of organ composers from the early Baroque era until at least the late 20th century (I am not sure if there are any significant French organ composers since Oliver Messiaen died 30 years ago). I can't think of a good reason why Bach's non-existence would have stopped that.


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## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

The amount of music written for organ other than by any Bach is staggering. The instrument has lost its supremacy and importance in the USA; very, very few churches use them nowadays whereas for generations it was THE church musical instrument without equal.There are few students of the instrument today in colleges. In my area we have a magnificent Wurlitzer installed at a pizza parlor where they have a lineup of organists and the thing is played nightly; and the place is packed! People love the sound of an organ and it's a shame that it has fallen in stature. At my church, we're extremely fortunate to have hired a young and superbly trained organist. He's so good, and plays such good music, that people stick around after mass just to hear. He plays little Bach, but Vierne, WIdor, Franck, Reger, Schmidt, Mendelssohn, Saint-Saens and others have been played. Wonderful.


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## arpeggio (Oct 4, 2012)

I think Viagra is more effective.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Tarneem said:


> let's say that Bach never composed for the organ. would the organ become extinct or it becomes one of those obscure instruments like the recorder or lute??



Well in Europe, in my experience organ concerts are very rarely dominated by Bach’s music. On record, I expect Bach’s organ music sells better than, let’s say, Reger’s or Mozart’s. And I believe that making an organ recording is difficult and, if you use a great church organ, quite expensive. I haven’t worked in the business but I expect Bach’s organ sales are subsidising the non-Bach organ products.


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## Monsalvat (11 mo ago)

Bach is essential for any organist, and he really dominates the repertoire. But there is lots of other music. French romantic organ music (composers including Vierne, Franck (technically Belgian), Widor, Dupré, Duruflé, Guilmant, Langlais) is really good too. And other North German organ music, such as Scheidt, Buxtehude, Tünder, etc. has some masterpieces. And there are others, like Sweelinck and Frescobaldi. So quite a diversity of styles and idioms apart from Bach.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

Captainnumber36 said:


> What about Jazz?


They don't play jazz on pipe organs.


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## Rogerx (Apr 27, 2018)

Tarneem said:


> let's say that Bach never composed for the organ. would the organ become extinct or it becomes one of those obscure instruments like the recorder or lute??


No, Olivier Latry - Michael Murray-Marie-Claire Alain did more then just Bach, if your a organ fan, 
dive in their recordings.


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## Philidor (11 mo ago)

Tarneem said:


> let's say that Bach never composed for the organ. would the organ become extinct or it becomes one of those obscure instruments like the recorder or lute??


I think that the recorder will still be played when all people denying the value and the beauty of its music are dead for centuries.

The organ has primarily a liturgical function. (If you want, you can explain this in the philosophical way: The organ is the only instrument that can a sustain a note for eternity ...)

However, churches and liturgy in West European context are in times of disruption. Nobody knows whether churches, liturgy will be the same (or nearly) 50 years later. 

Bach is of course one of the composers who is played most on the organ, and it is no problem (in Germany) to find several series of concerts presenting his full oeuvre for organ.

In Francem the situation is already different. Of course you get Bach there, but there is nuch more focus on French baroque composers such as Grigny, the Couperins, Clérambault, Daquin and others. Besides, you have lots of French compositions of excellent value (imho) in the second half of the 19th century, starting with Franck, followed by Tournemire, Widor, Vierne, Dupré, Duruflé, Alain and, maybe most important, Olivier Messiaen. 

The works of the latter are the most valuable compositions for organ after Bach in my opinion. Maybe they are not as easily accessible as Bach.

Whether the organ will become an obscure instrument or not will to great extent depend on the churches future.


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## Branko (3 mo ago)

Yes, I totally agree. A pipe organ is very much built for the building it lives in. It is carefully crafted with the acoustics and other aspects of the church or concert hall in mind. In a way one could say that the building becomes part of the instrument more so than with portable instruments, even pianos. And yes, an organ is built with eternity in mind. A beautiful thought. The materials, parts and designs reflect this. At the original build and at future renovations much thought and consideration is put into how original parts can be preserved and their life extended. The glue on wooden parts, for instance, can be dissolved, so that everything can be easily taken apart and put together again. The art and craft of organ building and maintenance is wonderful to behold, quite apart from the religious context of its use. It takes a whole team of craftsmen and master builders with a vast array of skills to bring one instrument to life and maintain it through the centuries. But the original team will not be around when the organ needs its next overhaul, and this is another reason why so much care is taken when it is originally built, but also in each subsequent renovation. Everything revolves around the idea that it must last and that it should be looked after in order to make it last - beyond one human life. It is very philosophical and quite humbling. So yes, for me an organ is an extremely precious instrument that is inextricably tied to the future of the building it lives in. 

In my mind, Bach and Messiaen stand out on recording. I realise there is far more than these two, but to this day I could never really relate to say Liszt or Reger on organ. Entirely my own problem and hopefully I will get there. So...pipe organ without Bach? Possible, of course, but at this point for me unthinkable.


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## BBSVK (10 mo ago)

Tarneem said:


> let's say that Bach never composed for the organ. would the organ become extinct or it becomes one of those obscure instruments like the recorder or lute??


The churches, at least in Europe, are often build with organ in it, or designed to accomodate it. It is an obvious instrument for the church services, regardless of Bach.


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## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

Also note that despite? Bach there was very little substantial organ music written in Germany between him and the late 19th century but this has never led to organs or organ music vanishing in daily/weekly practice. And since the 1920s/30s there has been a lot of interest in restoring organs and pre-Bachian composers on the one hand and on sometimes very modern new organ music (like Messiaen and following composers). It is a somewhat specialized niche that is in some ways independent of "standard" concert/opera subscription music/repertoire because it is obviously often focussed on specific instruments. But all the large churches/organs (and in Germany/Netherlands/Scandinavia they can be in smallish towns) have admirers, are usually kept in shape and there are enough employed organists (by churches or communities) to make organ music and culture rather independent from the rest of classical music or recordings, I think.


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## Nate Miller (Oct 24, 2016)

Where I live in south central Pennsylvania there is a local society (mostly Church organists) that puts on organ recitals once or twice a year. But in the eastern US, there are more Churches with full pipe organs around than there are out west of the Mississippi. I can see where someone could live in an area that is just devoid of real pipe organs and not be aware of all the modern compositions because they never get to see a live recital.

the thing is that organ recitals are different than a mainstream symphony or chamber ensemble. First, you have to go to where the organ is, which means you are going to have to see the inside of a Church. That doesn't bother me, but I'm sure there's folks that dont like doing that.

Also, in a Church, the organ isn't front and center. That would probably be the altar. In fact, alot of churches have the organ in the back, so when you go see an organ recital, if you just go sit down like it was a Sunday service, you wont be able to see much. I always like one of the pews on the far side up near the front. Its easier to turn and watch the organist play from up in the loft.

But the organ seems to be alive and well where I live. Several real pipe organs in the area, Many good players, and a local society that puts on recitals


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## Enthalpy (Apr 15, 2020)

Olivier Messiaen!

Anyway, organists compose and improvise, so they don't even need composers. As long as organs and organists exist, we'll have organ music.


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## RobertJTh (Sep 19, 2021)

Kreisler jr said:


> Also note that despite? Bach there was very little substantial organ music written in Germany between him and the late 19th century (...)


I consider Rheinberger at least the equal of the French romantic organ composers, and to me personally he's second only to Bach as a composer for the organ.


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## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

I don't think I have heard any solo organ music by Rheinberger (maybe one of the sonatas? I have heard a bunch of pieces for organ+ violin, I think) but it doesn't really contradict my point because Rheinberger's music is mostly late 19th century. Mendelssohn wrote of course some relevant organ pieces in the mid-19th century, and there is Reubke and Liszt, but it's not much and not that relevant either compared to other genres or to the period between Sweelinck and JS Bach.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

RobertJTh said:


> I consider Rheinberger at least the equal of the French romantic organ composers, and to me personally he's second only to Bach as a composer for the organ.


It does seem rather good, thanks.


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