# Richard Strauss: Just how highly do you estimate him?



## julide (Jul 24, 2020)

Often accused of note spinning and being vulgar even R. Strauss called himself a second-rate composer. His Salome and Elektra have been undermined often on this forum as garish and vulgar. His tone poems have been called self indulgent. Do you agree with these sentiments or do you hold him as a great 20th century composer?


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## SONNET CLV (May 31, 2014)

julide said:


> Often accused of note spinning and being vulgar even R. Strauss called himself a second-rate composer. His Salome and Elektra have been undermined often on this forum as garish and vulgar. His tone poems have been called self indulgent. Do you agree with these sentiments or do you hold him as a great 20th century composer?


Though I love Mahler, I could never quite "get" Strauss. I recognize his genius as genuine, but I just don't relish in the melodic/harmonic "sounds" he makes. With a couple of exceptions, including those two "garish and vulgar" works (_Salome_ and _Elektra_) cited above. When I add to that the _Zarathustra_, the _Metamorphosen_, and the _Four Last Songs_, I've come nearly to the end of my list. Which is likely more my "bad" than his.

I will, however, on occasion, continue to "spin" works of his during my listening sessions. There remains much to explore.


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

He came in at #13 the last time I made a top 30. Arguably the last of the great romantics, his legacy is mainly in orchestral works (in particular the tone poems), operas and songs. Some of the highlights for me are his tone poems Don Juan and Don Quixote, the stunning Metamorphosen for orchestra, the opera Salome and his masterpiece, Vier letzte Lieder (Four Last Songs).


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## Fabulin (Jun 10, 2019)

Based on the reputation among his composer contemporaries and followers, one would expect him to maybe fit into the top 20 of all time, or, over time, right outside of it.

Quite close to his own idea of a "first rate second rate composer".


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

Strauss is in my top ten - the tone poems, operas, lieder, Metamorphosen, and the delightful oboe concerto.


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## larold (Jul 20, 2017)

He came in No. 12 in my survey between Verdi and Dvorak. The last of the great romantics and the last great opera writer before Britten. 

I don't think any composer matched his skill in developing lengthy arc-driven orchestral soundscapes like Also Sprach Zarathustra, Heldenleben, the Domestic and Alpine symphonies, and the Rosenkavalier suite. 

His Four Last Songs are, with Wagner's Wesendonck lieder, the pinnacle of late romantic song.

He also had a more delicate, Mozartean side he demonstrated in chamber music for winds and the Duet-Concertino for Clarinet and Bassoon with the two instruments mimicking opera voices. Strauss, like Tchaikovsky and scores of other composers, adored Mozart.


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## TwoFlutesOneTrumpet (Aug 31, 2011)

I agree with Richard Strauss' own assessment 

I rarely listen to his music. Every time I give it a try, I end up wanting to listen to something else.


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## SearsPoncho (Sep 23, 2020)

I have to agree with his own assessment as a second-rate composer. I put him in the camp of composers I do consider great because I can hear the talent and can see why others may like him and rate him highly, but he's just not my taste, that's all. Actually, I find his shock and awe operas, Salome and Elektra, to be among his most interesting works, and do not mind listening to them once in a blue moon. Despite all that, he wrote one work which I adore: The Four Last Songs.


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## Jacck (Dec 24, 2017)

I value him quite higly. I like almost everything I heard from him, including his early symphonies, his operas, his tone poems, his songs. Unlike others here, I like his melodies and his style.

and my favorite work by him is Frau ohne Schatten


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## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

As an opera composer he's first rate. As a symphonist he's decidedly third rate. His symphonic poems are interesting, but they're like Marvel comic movies: there's a lot of action but little real substance. There are some miracles in his writing: the Four Last Songs, Metamorphosen, even the Op. 4 serenade. I can do without the rest and rarely listen unless it's to demonstrate the surround sound setup. As a player, I find it uninteresting. Hard to play, but not always worth the effort.


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## Fabulin (Jun 10, 2019)

mbhaub said:


> His symphonic poems are interesting, but they're like Marvel comic movies: there's a lot of action but little real substance.


Ha! If only the dreck that Marvel comic movies are scored with was anywhere close to Strauss' level! One can dream...


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## Simplicissimus (Feb 3, 2020)

I got into the music of the early 20th Century when I was in my 20s (40 years ago) and it has since then been my favorite musical period. I am a fan of Mahler, Bartok, Janacek, Hindemith, Elgar, Vaughan Williams, Ives, Barber... and R. Strauss. Among the composers of this period, Strauss to me is indispensable. I love his tone poems, even the corny _Sinfonia Domestica_, and I enjoy his operas except for _Elektra_. Although the other late Romantic composers also employ the rich orchestral colors at which Strauss excelled, I find Strauss's melodic and rhythmic vocabularies truly distinctive. Strauss is a composer I like to listen to at least once a week, more than Mahler, whom I find too demanding for regular listening. I think I have at least one recording of just about all of Strauss's works in my CD collection, and I have up to five recordings of some of the tone poems and the _Vier letzte Lieder_. I'm not really concerned about the criticism of Strauss's "vulgarity" and that kind of thing. I'm pretty sure a lot of people would find me and my bourgeois domesticity vulgar, too.


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## Littlephrase (Nov 28, 2018)

The late masterpieces (the Four Last Songs and Metamorphosen) are indeed compositional miracles and doubtless my favorite works by Strauss. I really like some of the tone poems, _Tod und Verklärung_ and _Ein Heldenleben_ first among them. _Till Eulenspiegel_ is a blast, along with the quasi-concerto, quasi-symphonic poem, _Don Quixote_.

He was a great opera composer. His partnership with Hoffmannsthal was perhaps the finest composer/librettist combo since Mozart and Da Ponte.


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## Coach G (Apr 22, 2020)

Richard Strauss was an early favorite of mine. As a teenager in the 1980s, I would blast my old vinyl recording of _Also Sprach Zarathustra_ the way that other boys my age would blast heavy metal or rap music. I would also blast Stravinsky's _Rite of Spring_. I guess we all need a way to rebel against our parents and express our inner angst, during our teenage years, so when my parents told me to "Lower that music!", it was Strauss and Stravinsky instead of AC/DC or Run DMC.

In a way I continue to see _Zarathustra_ and _Rite_ as companion pieces. Each is loud and colorful. Each is a little more than a half-hour long. Each has been associated with primordial themes in cinema (_Zarathustra_ in _2001: A Space Odyssey_ and _Rite_ in Disney's _Fantasia_). Each came along around the turn of the twentieth century, and both were supposed to usher in a new age in sound; but while _Rite_ actually does bring something new to the table, _Zarathustra_ only does so on the surface and despite the dissonances and blaring horns, it belongs more-or-less to Late Romanticism.

Along this line, the _Alpine Symphony_ is also great fun, as is _Till Eulenspiegel_.

The irony is that after all the "Futuristic" dissonances in _Zarathustra_, and the scandalous operas, _Salome_ and _Elektra_, Strauss ended his very long career in 1949 with the lovely and beautiful _Four Last Songs_. So in the wake of Hiroshima, the dawn of the computer age, and in the heyday of the international serial movement; Strauss takes his last breath while providing the _Brave New World_ with one final burst of Romanticism. It's not even the Late Romanticism of Wagner and Mahler; but rather the really heart-felt and pretty High Romanticism that goes all the way back to Mendelssohn, Schubert, and Schumann.


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## MusicSybarite (Aug 17, 2017)

He's firmly in my top 10 or top 20. I can't live without his music, and I don't care for the dismissive comments he gets from many. Last year I heard all his operas and oh my goodness, my respect towards him grew hugely! I liked a lot Guntram, Feuersnot (despite being blatantly 'wagnerian'), Salome (one of my favorite operas ever, what an ending!), Elektra didn't impress me too much but I did like it, Ariadne auf Naxos contains some of the most sublime and lovely music Strauss could ever write, Die Frau ohne Schatten is of epic proportions, Die schweigsame Frau is so joyous. Die Liebe der Danae, Friedenstag and Capriccio gave me enormous pleasure too.


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## Eclectic Al (Apr 23, 2020)

Which do you prefer:
- Loads of work that are OK, but you wouldn't really ever reach for, or
- A few pieces you love?

I go for the latter, and Strauss is up there.


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## MatthewWeflen (Jan 24, 2019)

He's in my top 10 to be sure. I had him at #5 before, but thinking it over I would probably now bump Tchaikovsky and Haydn above him. So #7.


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## adriesba (Dec 30, 2019)

I don't agree with the negative sentiments towards Richard Strauss. He's one of my top five favorite composers. His music is very well orchestrated and gets the intended emotions across very thoroughly. His tone poems are among my favorite orchestral pieces, and _Elektra _is one of my favorite operas.


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## Pat Fairlea (Dec 9, 2015)

Littlephrase1913 said:


> The late masterpieces (the Four Last Songs and Metamorphosen) are indeed compositional miracles and doubtless my favorite works by Strauss. I really like some of the tone poems, _Tod und Verklärung_ and _Ein Heldenleben_ first among them. _Till Eulenspiegel_ is a blast, along with the quasi-concerto, quasi-symphonic poem, _Don Quixote_.
> 
> He was a great opera composer. His partnership with Hoffmannsthal was perhaps the finest composer/librettist combo since Mozart and Da Ponte.


Totally agree. Metamorphosen and Four Last Songs are superb, as if he finally allowed himself to be himself and to write what he meant, not necessarily what audiences wanted.


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

Wagner, Mahler, Shostakovich, Strauss, Bach. My particular Famous Five! One of them will be played at some point in the day.


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## MarkW (Feb 16, 2015)

Oh, about 5' 6" .


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## Allegro Con Brio (Jan 3, 2020)

Quite highly, probably a top 25 composer for me. Yes, he can be egotistical and overblown but I love to sit back and enjoy the luxurious orchestral wizardry and lyricism of his tone poems through good headphones. I think Don Quixote is one of the greatest translations of a literary work into music. But it is his late "Indian summer" works that most capture my heart - the sublime Four Last Songs, the delightful oboe concerto and Concertino Duet, and the elegaic Metamorphosen. My major blind spot of his is opera, where I've hardly even heard a second of anything he wrote in the genre. I think it's time for me to dig in.


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## Rogerx (Apr 27, 2018)

Top 15 material, Don Quixote/ Vier letzte Lieder as favorite


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## RogerWaters (Feb 13, 2017)

Last Four songs are his only great works for me. I find the Alpine Symphony completely boring, in particular. Thus Spake has some nice moments - would rank at the top of his tone poems.


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## gregorx (Jan 25, 2020)

I think Strauss was just okay, off to a good start then lost his mojo when he realized he didn't get what was going on in the music world around him. He was a Romantic stranded in the 20th Century. He basically disappeared until after the war then did a couple of good works. So I don't estimate him highly.


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## Eclectic Al (Apr 23, 2020)

gregorx said:


> I think Strauss was just okay, off to a good start then lost his mojo when he realized he didn't get what was going on in the music world around him. He was a Romantic stranded in the 20th Century. He basically disappeared until after the war then did a couple of good works. So I don't estimate him highly.


Yes and no. It seems to me that it is the "musical world" which went crazy, and Strauss retained a degree of sense. When he became confident enough to go his own way he produced his "couple of good works". Meanwhile the world went up Schoenberg's blind alley.


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## gvn (Dec 14, 2019)

Hoffmansthal (the person best qualified to reply to this question) regarded Strauss as a Mozart who mistakenly tried to turn himself into a Wagner. I think that's a shrewd assessment.

Like Mozart, Strauss had immense natural God-given talents of an unforced, intuitive kind. The quality of his early (pre-adult) work speaks for itself: the Serenade, the Suite, the First Horn Concerto, Zueignung, Allerseelen, etc.

Then around 1885 Strauss set himself the task of becoming the next Wagner. The standard of his work remained high, and highly professional--how could it have been otherwise? But it wasn't the work that one would have predicted from his teenage achievements.

The long operatic partnership with Hofmannsthal was clearly of immense benefit to both of them. Strauss wasn't the ideal composer for H, nor was H the ideal librettist for S (as their fascinating letters make plain). They seem constantly to be reaching out toward each other over a chasm (which one never feels with Verdi & Boito, or Bellini & Romani, or even Mozart & Da Ponte). But the talent on each side of the chasm is so great that I find the results inexhaustibly fascinating.

Ironically, in Strauss's very final years, after Hofmannsthal's death, he gradually shed much of his pseudo-Wagnerism and became the more Mozartian composer that H had so often vainly urged him to be. I'm thinking particularly of the Oboe Concerto, the Duet Concertino, the Second Horn Concerto, Metamorphosen, and the Four Last Songs. Those works seem to me a truer reflection of Strauss's natural talent, and a more genuine continuation of the work he had done in his teens, than most of the operas & orchestral works that came between.


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## MatthewWeflen (Jan 24, 2019)

He's in the bottom end of my top ten. I have to be in the mood, but when I'm in that mood, his music contains true greatness. I don't understand the knock of "vulgar."


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## musichal (Oct 17, 2020)

While he wouldn't make my top ten - nor top 25, I don't think - you can yet color me vulgar for loving _Also Sprach Zarathustra_ and finding it beautiful. I esteem Bach, Beethoven, Brahms and Beethoven more highly - and that is just the B's (and not all of _them_). I don't see that as a poor reflection of Strauss, but as a mark of the wealth of excellent composers we have at our fingertips in our post-2001 world.

Now if someone started a thread Top Ten Reasons That Top Ten Lists Are Flawed...


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## Ned Low (Jul 29, 2020)

Franz Liszt created symphonic peoms, Strauss became a supreme master of it. I've listened to his Salome, Elektra, Don Juan, Death and Transfiguration and Thus Spoke Zarathustra. All amazing. The only work that i don't like is Till Eulenspiegel. I've yet to listen to his other compositions. I have Karajan,Kempe,Reiner,Sinopoli,Böhm for his works.


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## Janspe (Nov 10, 2012)

I love Strauss very much indeed. I wouldn't necessarily call him a favourite of mine, but then again there are a lot of great composers who I see similarly.

I really, _really_ love the _Vier letzte Lieder_. There is no music on this planet that moves me more than those four songs. I mean it. Discovering those songs not only made me love Strauss' music much more than before, but actually fundamentally changed something within me - I know it sounds sentimental but I mean every word!

There are so many pieces by Strauss that I simply adore, especially in vocal music. I agree that he wrote many pieces that are perhaps less-than-in-inspired but I think this is true of many great composers. I certainly wouldn't want to be without _Also sprach Zarathustra_, _Tod und Verklärung_, _Ariadne auf Naxos_, _Elektra_, _Salome_, the horn concerti, the burleske for piano and orchestra... You name it! How about the songs? _Morgen_ is one of the most comforting things I have ever heard in my life. Quite often Strauss' music - at its most gentle and pondering - fills me with this warmth and love, and I think that is something that can and should be valued. Lots of wonderful music. I see no reason to underestimate Strauss and his output.


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