# Classical music "mythbusters"



## violadude (May 2, 2011)

Alright so this thread might be kind of fun. Post an untrue myth, reputation, or stereotype about a certain composer or certain style of music and then bust it with an example that proves otherwise, use youtube when possible. 

Since these myths might be fairly limited in number, I'd like it if you try to limit it to one myth per post and then let some other people take a shot at this before you post another one. But if you just can't resist then you can just ignore this suggestion haha.

The first myth I want to bust is a fairly obvious one, but I still hear it floating around quite a lot and thats the stereotype that Beethoven wasn't good at writing melodies.

There are tons of pieces by him that refute this myth, but the first one that comes immediately to my mind is the 2nd movement of his string quartet Op. 127 (in my opinion one of his most underrated string quartets). The melody is so so gorgeous and almost always brings me to tears when I listen to it.


----------



## Aramis (Mar 1, 2009)

<puts Jamie Hyneman's beret on>

Liszt - showman who cared only to present his enormous skills and virtuosity and led life of "rockstar".

This image is very popular and so untrue. Anyone who did read about his life know that only in his youth he led a life of celebrated virtuoso but already in his 20's he realized that it's not what he wants to be. Eventually he turned out to be someone with deep personality, very spiritual person with serious and wise views on art and life, full of compassion and sense of mission which shaped musical realities in XIXth century.


----------



## Weston (Jul 11, 2008)

There's the myth Beethoven himself perpetrated that he learned nothing from Haydn. I think he did. It doesn't get much more Beethovenian than this movement composed well before any of Beethoven's symphonies. All it needs is a few more abrupt dynamic changes and a little less restraint:
Haydn: Symphony No. 100, movement 2 Allegretto


----------



## violadude (May 2, 2011)

Weston said:


> There's the myth Beethoven himself perpetrated that he learned nothing from Haydn. I think he did. It doesn't get much more Beethovenian than this movement composed well before any of Beethoven's symphonies. All it needs is a few more abrupt dynamic changes and a little less restraint:
> Haydn: Symphony No. 100, movement 2 Allegretto


I agree completely. Beethoven is much closer in style to Haydn than he is to Mozart. Him and Haydn both tended to work with shorter thematic cells. The way they approached development is similar too in the way that they both sort of deconstructed their themes. Mozart's development sections generally focus more on swift harmonic changes than theme deconstruction.


----------



## Vazgen (May 24, 2011)

There's always the myth that Shostakovich lived in mortal terror of the Communist Party for most of his life, and included coded messages in his compositions denouncing Stalin and the Soviets. Except for a couple of incidents, Shostakovich was actually pretty cozy with the Politburo. He even joined the Party long after Stalin was dead.

-Vaz


----------



## World Violist (May 31, 2007)

Heifetz could never play a wrong note:


----------



## Whipsnade (Mar 17, 2011)

I don't think I've ever seen anyone play wrong notes so well!


----------



## World Violist (May 31, 2007)

Whipsnade said:


> I don't think I've ever seen anyone play wrong notes so well!


You know, they always say that execution is everything in comedy. I bet he practiced that.


----------



## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

One myth that annoys me is that composers were struggling for 1600 years until finally at the dawn of the Baroque they invented chords and glorious triadic harmony.


----------



## World Violist (May 31, 2007)

Manxfeeder said:


> One myth that annoys me is that composers were struggling for 1600 years until finally at the dawn of the Baroque they invented chords and glorious triadic harmony.


And then Liszt invented program music and Bruckner was a terrible composer who had no idea what he was doing.


----------



## Huilunsoittaja (Apr 6, 2010)

violadude said:


> The first myth I want to bust is a fairly obvious one, but I still hear it floating around quite a lot and thats the stereotype that Beethoven wasn't good at writing melodies.


Aaaaahaaaa!

I hadn't even viewed this thread before putting my post on the "Masterpieces you have a problem with" thread. Just a myth, huh? :tiphat:

Well, anyways, I was thinking that some myths about classical music include that plants grow better listening to classical music, and the Mozart effect. I think both are proven false. Unfortunate for the Mozart effect, seems like it would be true.


----------



## Huilunsoittaja (Apr 6, 2010)

Vazgen said:


> There's always the myth that Shostakovich lived in mortal terror of the Communist Party for most of his life, and included coded messages in his compositions denouncing Stalin and the Soviets. Except for a couple of incidents, Shostakovich was actually pretty cozy with the Politburo. He even joined the Party long after Stalin was dead.
> 
> -Vaz


Aaaaaahaaaa! (again)

Shostakovich was a Communist, by all accounts. But that doesn't mean he was a Stalinist. He still upheld the Socialist, idealistic values, and attempted to promote them in his music whenever he could. But, I think he was well aware of how frail his life was, and that any time he could die at the hands of Stalin, which pretty much everyone knew, silently. And yet, I don't care if he was Communist,  I don't listen to his music thinking about how good Communism _sounds_.


----------



## Air (Jul 19, 2008)

A few that have irked me in the past:

Polyphonic music is superior to homophonic music.

Complexity in music is equivalent to sophistication.

Mozart and Haydn's music lacks depth and emotion because it was originally written as background music for the Austro-German gentry.

Mozart lacks depth and emotion because he uses subtler dynamics and tempo changes compared to Beethoven and Mahler, who have true 'geist'.

Schumann was a poor orchestrator.

Wagner's music is best heard in 'bleeding chunks'.

4'33" is representative of John Cage's output as well as of contemporary music as a whole.


----------



## violadude (May 2, 2011)

Huilunsoittaja said:


> Aaaaahaaaa!
> 
> I hadn't even viewed this thread before putting my post on the "Masterpieces you have a problem with" thread. Just a myth, huh? :tiphat:
> 
> Well, anyways, I was thinking that some myths about classical music include that plants grow better listening to classical music, and the Mozart effect. I think both are proven false. Unfortunate for the Mozart effect, seems like it would be true.


Haha, did you listen to the example I gave?


----------



## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

Vazgen said:


> There's always the myth that Shostakovich lived in mortal terror of the Communist Party for most of his life, and included coded messages in his compositions denouncing Stalin and the Soviets. Except for a couple of incidents, Shostakovich was actually pretty cozy with the Politburo. He even joined the Party long after Stalin was dead.
> 
> -Vaz


DSCH was a nervous wreck from when he was first denounced in 1936 until probably well after Stalin's death as the demise of Uncle Joe didn't necessarily mean that things would automatically improve for him. I agree with the notion that one of the reasons that DSCH (and others like the poet Anna Akhmatova) avoided a fate worse than what he actually endured was due to his standing in the West - even Stalin couldn't be seen to be arbitrarily imprisoning or executing too many famous Soviet cultural icons so he was content to use the carrot and stick to keep him underfoot and play on his neuroses. Also, being 'cosy with the Politburo' was hardly a guarantee of safety if one takes into account the ultimate fate of most Politburo members of the time! It's a sad irony that whatever peace of mind DSCH eventually managed to find coincided with the gradual decline of his health. Stalin virtually destroyed Prokofiev with the carrot and stick - he very nearly broke Shostakovich, too.


----------



## Vazgen (May 24, 2011)

elgars ghost said:


> even Stalin couldn't be seen to be arbitrarily imprisoning or executing too many famous Soviet cultural icons so he was content to use the carrot and stick to keep him underfoot and play on his neuroses.


I seriously doubt Stalin had any such qualms.

DSCH was, as you said, denounced after the _Lady MacBeth of Mtemsk_ scandal, but except for a brief period of hot water in 1948 because of the Zhdanov decree, Shostakovich was in no real danger.

-Vaz


----------



## Nix (Feb 20, 2010)

Air said:


> Schumann was a poor orchestrator.


Schumann _was_ a poor orchestrator. He really only has one knockout orchestral piece and that's his piano concerto, whose orchestral writing is very uninvolved to leave room for his brilliant piano writing.

Myth: Mozart died poor and unappreciated. By the time of his death, Mozart was getting paid more for his operas then any other composer around, and was as appreciated as any composer of the day, in Vienna and especially Prague.


----------



## Weston (Jul 11, 2008)

Air said:


> 4'33" is representative of John Cage's output as well as of contemporary music as a whole.


Would that it were. I crave a performance of it on continuous loop every day.


----------



## pjang23 (Oct 8, 2009)

Weston said:


> Would that it were. I crave a performance of it on continuous loop every day.


It sure is one of the best-sounding of contemporary music.


----------



## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

Vazgen said:


> I seriously doubt Stalin had any such qualms.
> 
> DSCH was, as you said, denounced after the _Lady MacBeth of Mtemsk_ scandal, but except for a brief period of hot water in 1948 because of the Zhdanov decree, Shostakovich was in no real danger.
> 
> -Vaz


If that was the case the fact remains that Shostakovich still didn't KNOW that. Carrot and stick...


----------



## Vazgen (May 24, 2011)

elgars ghost said:


> If that was the case the fact remains that Shostakovich still didn't KNOW that. Carrot and stick...


No, I think the fact remains that people prefer the myth to the reality.

-Vaz


----------



## Delicious Manager (Jul 16, 2008)

Vazgen said:


> There's always the myth that Shostakovich lived in mortal terror of the Communist Party for most of his life, and included coded messages in his compositions denouncing Stalin and the Soviets. Except for a couple of incidents, Shostakovich was actually pretty cozy with the Politburo. He even joined the Party long after Stalin was dead.
> 
> -Vaz


I'm afraid your comments shows a fundamental lack of understanding about Shostakovich's circumstances. He resisted long and hard to join the Communist Party and was finally forced to in 1960 (people were 'forced' to do all kinds of things in the old USSR). This so depressed Shostakovich that he seriously contemplated suicide and composed the autobiographical 8th String Quartet as his own musical epitaph. The composer later thought better of his suicide (possibly driven my family responsibilities). I can hardly see how a person who kept a packed suitcase under his bed in case the KGB called on him (as it had done many times to various of Shostakovich's friends and colleagues) could be said to have been 'pretty cozy' with the Politburo. I think this insults the composer's obvious integrity (which he maintained at great risk to himself).

Easy to make such glib comments from the comfort of your free, western home.


----------



## Delicious Manager (Jul 16, 2008)

One myth I'd like to dispell is the one that Mozart was buried in a pauper's grave. He wasn't. In common with nearly everyone but royalty and the aristocracy in the 18th century, Mozart was buries in a mass grave. This was VERY common.


----------



## Vazgen (May 24, 2011)

Delicious Manager said:


> I'm afraid your comments shows a fundamental lack of understanding about Shostakovich's circumstances. He resisted long and hard to join the Communist Party and was finally forced to in 1960 (people were 'forced' to do all kinds of things in the old USSR).


Come now. Shostakovich wasn't forced to join. He did so because he wanted the plum job of Chairman of the Composer's Union. By all accounts, he felt bad about it afterward. Khruschev may have been a crafty bugger, but he was hardly the despot Stalin was.

I'm not trying to say the Soviets were nice to their artists and there was never any coercion or censorship. I'm saying there were artists who actually were oppressed, and Shostakovich got off light. Look up the name Meyerhold if you don't believe me.

Believe the self-serving mythology of Shostakovich and his hagiographers if you want. But the facts paint a much messier picture.

-Vaz


----------



## violadude (May 2, 2011)

One "myth" that I'd like to talk about is one that I used to buy into myself and that is besides the requiem, 40th symphony and 20th piano concerto, Mozart's music is too happy all the time. I think a lot of people that are new to classical music or just haven't listened to Mozart feel like this.

To refute this myth I would present Mozart's 27th Piano Concerto in B-flat. This is I believe his last piano concerto. To untrained ears this piece might just sound happy like any of his other pieces, but IMO Mozart is the master at subtle emotions. To my ear, rather than happy, I feel a sigh of contemplation in this concerto, as if he is looking back on his life so far and perhaps saying goodbye to the genre of the piano concerto. Not only that, but Mozart is also the master of subtle emotions that pass very quickly. For example, 1:11-1:15 is very sad sounding emotional music. 2:00-2:11 also sounds quite melancholy. The miracle of his music is that he can touch these "deeper" emotions so quickly, yet come in and out of them so naturally. In my opinion, he is definitely the most "emotional" purely classical composer. I make the distinction of purely classical composer because of Beethoven, who started as a classical composer, but didn't end as one.


----------



## Delicious Manager (Jul 16, 2008)

Don't forget the 'other' G minor symphony (No 25, K 183) or the Piano Concerto No 24, K 491 (C minor). You need to remember that, until Beethoven, composers were almost entirely 'servants' of their employers and had to produce the music required of them. In the most part, these people didn't want music that was too serious or demanding. That's why so much music of the Classical period is in major keys.


----------



## regressivetransphobe (May 16, 2011)

Question. Would Shostakovich's circumstances hypothetically being more unfortunate and precarious grant greater legitimacy to his music in your mind? If so, why?


----------



## violadude (May 2, 2011)

Delicious Manager said:


> Don't forget the 'other' G minor symphony (No 25, K 183) or the Piano Concerto No 24, K 491 (C minor). You need to remember that, until Beethoven, composers were almost entirely 'servants' of their employers and had to produce the music required of them. In the most part, these people didn't want music that was too serious or demanding. That's why so much music of the Classical period is in major keys.


I knew that about composers being servants to their employers. The fact still remains that Mozart's music is more subtly emotional than most classical composers managed to pull off.


----------



## Delicious Manager (Jul 16, 2008)

violadude said:


> I knew that about composers being servants to their employers. The fact still remains that Mozart's music is more subtly emotional than most classical composers managed to pull off.


Actually, I wasn't disagreeing with you; I liked your thoughtful post. I was just pointing-out for any readers who didn't realise it, that much of Mozart's music might seem 'happy all the time' because he couldn't just write what he liked.


----------



## violadude (May 2, 2011)

Gotcha'.


----------



## Delicious Manager (Jul 16, 2008)

regressivetransphobe said:


> Question. Would Shostakovich's circumstances hypothetically being more unfortunate and precarious grant greater legitimacy to his music in your mind? If so, why?


This is an interesting question that requires answering on several levels.

1) Shostakovich was a very uneven composer. At his best (eg Symphonies 8 & 10, String Quartets 9 &10, Violin Concerto No 1) he could be claimed to be a 'great' composer. At his worst (eg _The Song of the Forests_, Symphony No 12, _The Limpid Stream_) he produced vapid, shallow music. HOWEVER, were it not for the demands of 'the State' and the composer's need to occasionally ingratiate his musical self with the cloth-eared powers that be, he would almost certainly not have produced works like this.
2) Some works with a highly-charged political/programmatic content (eg the _Leningrad_ Symphony) have probably enjoyed more success than their musical quality alone might have afforded them.

It is difficult to divorce the socio-political circumstances of Shostakovich's life from his music - especially since the claims made in books and articles such as Solomon Volkov's _Testimony_, the veracity or otherwise of which is a whole other point of discussion.

So, I think that SOME of Shostakovich's works have gained greater legitimacy with some listeners simply because of the 'story' behind them. It is interesting, however, that most (but not all) of his very greatest pieces music don't carry such baggage.


----------



## Delicious Manager (Jul 16, 2008)

violadude said:


> Gotcha'.


Make the most of it!


----------



## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

One of the biggest is that Stravinsky's music to the Rite of Spring caused a riot.
In fact Nijinsky and Diaghilev deserve almost all of the credit for what is probably more accurately called a 'loud disagreement' in the audience. Nijinsky's choreography caused a strong negative reaction among the typical conservative ballet-goers, who then got into heated arguments with the more forward-thinking audience members (planted there specifically for this purpose by Diaghilev), this led to the music being mostly inaudible. Reviews at the time hardly mention the music, which would later be received very well a few months later in concert performance. Some scholars have suggested that it was Stravinsky himself who perpetrated this myth in the 20's after he published the score.


----------



## GoneBaroque (Jun 16, 2011)

Vazgen said:


> No, I think the fact remains that people prefer the myth to the reality.
> 
> -Vaz


True; Myths make better stories than reality, which is why they endure.

"If the facts do not fit the theory, the facts must be changed".

Rob


----------

