# Debunking classical music myths/misconceptions



## nefigah (Aug 23, 2008)

Recently, there was a swell thread here about the common viewpoint that all classical music is "relaxing." Similarly, the other day I lent some music to a friend of mine as he was going on a long car trip. His comment? "Classical music is too repetitive." Boy, did that one baffle me a bit... out of all the genres to call repetitive! I didn't take the issue much further with him, but it got me thinking about how I would respond.

Are you aware of any other widely-held generalizations about classical music that you don't hold to be correct? How would you address them?


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## Chi_townPhilly (Apr 21, 2007)

I think there's a certain tendency on the part of some to take that which they find incomprehensible or indiscernable and conclude that it has a patina of sameness about it. It's the same kind of thinking that's applied by folks who say "all you (people from another ethnic group) look alike to me." Ultimately, it's more of a comment on their paucity of perceptive powers than a relevant statement on the subject of their perception.

As for the "debunking of classical music myths," I think the vast majority of people on this board are capable of some extensive "myth-busting"-- but receiving the "good news" of Classical Music requires a somewhat open mind and willingness to listen. Or, as the ol' parental unit(s) used to say "there are none so blind as those who WILL not see."

An anecdote from my college years... I had a roommate- and he and his friends were listening to the Dave Brubeck Quartet's _Time Out_ (which is actually a damn fine jazz album, but moving right along) and they were raving about the unconventional meters as though they had just discovered the philosopher's stone. Well, I submitted for their consideration an excerpt from Stravinsky's _Rite of Spring_... you know, the one where, when written in its original form, the time-signature changed _every measure_. No doubt I made my point that more extreme metric invention predated the likes of Brubeck by close to half-a-century... but I don't think I made any 'Stravinsky converts'- at least not that day...


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## Yagan Kiely (Feb 6, 2008)

Apparently, all classical music is slow also.


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## Yagan Kiely (Feb 6, 2008)

> An anecdote from my college years... I had a roommate- and he and his friends were listening to the Dave Brubeck Quartet's _Time Out_ (which is actually a damn fine jazz album, but moving right along) and they were raving about the unconventional meters as though they had just discovered the philosopher's stone. Well, I submitted for their consideration an excerpt from Stravinsky's _Rite of Spring_... you know, the one where, when written in its original form, the time-signature changed _every measure_. No doubt I made my point that more extreme metric invention predated the likes of Brubeck by close to half-a-century... but I don't think I made any 'Stravinsky converts'- at least not that day...


I jazz lecturer at my uni thought that big band invented the idea of having soloists and small sections of the band (orchestra) play alone rather than everything always playing at the same time.


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## Weston (Jul 11, 2008)

I once went to a junior high school production of "Oklahoma!" The program book stated that in the early 1940's Richard Rodgers and Oscar Hammerstein invented the idea of putting music together with a play to make musical theater.

This was written by a music teacher.

Also, last week a coworker stated that classical music is all stodgy and serious - translated to mean pretentious and snooty. I regreted not having a copy of Mozart's _Ein Musikalischer Spaß_ on hand.


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## jhar26 (Jul 6, 2008)

I think that the biggest problem is that many think that it's too complicated for them to enjoy it. They may respect it but think it's beyond them - or expect that it would be beyond them if they tried, and so they don't think it's worth the effort.

Another prejudice that I've heard quite a few times is that classical music is establishment music and music for the rich. They basically think it's music for snobs while popular music genres such as rock, folk, jazz, blues, country, and so on is the music for the common man.


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## Guest (Dec 14, 2008)

Yagan Kiely said:


> I jazz lecturer at my uni thought that big band invented the idea of having soloists and small sections of the band (orchestra) play alone rather than everything always playing at the same time.
> [/SIZE]


Re you comments on unconvential meters,
As some one that has loved both Classical and Jazz for more years than I like to think about I can only agree that the Dave Brubeck Qt was a very fine combo they did experiment with 5/4 7/4 and other meters even using both in the same piece, if I remember correctly they were the first to make it popular in the Jazz world


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## Tapkaara (Apr 18, 2006)

Classical music is elevator music, it's for smart people, elitist snobs, it's dry, very serious, devoid of any carnal pleasure, and one must listen while sporting a look of haughty disdain. I always wear my tuxedo when I listen to classical, even at home.


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## Rondo (Jul 11, 2007)

> ... even at home.


At _home?_? You listen to classical music leisurely at _home_? 

Certainly, you should be aware of the mores of the classical music community which state that classical music should only be heard in waiting rooms, telephone recordings, restaurants, or at formal social gatherings. Playing classical music for your own enjoyment undermines the sanctity of classical music.

Of course, all this doesn't really help to debunk the myth that all classical enthusiasts are elitists. And whomever still believes classical music is "devoid of any carnal pleasure" hasn't heard any Stravinsky, or many others for that matter. Please tell me that you thought of that one just from off the top of your head.


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## PostMinimalist (May 14, 2008)

Ah, myths... Double bassist play all the notes in fast passages!!
Brass players don't drink.. at all!!!
String players don't knit on the bus on tour (even the guys!) 

Apocryphal tales
1. A coloured Contra bassonist (an excellent player called Gordon Laing) was playing in an orchestra directed by George Hurst (if I remember correctly) who was disgusted to see him reading a news paper while his instrument rested upright on it's stand towering above the woodwind section. He had 500 odd bars rest before he had to play and felt justified in bringing a paper to the rehearsal. George Hurst stopped the orchestra when he saw the paper and addressed the Contra player, "Contra-bassoon, could you please put that thing away, I don't want to see it again!?" The Contra player responded by folding the paper, puting it to one side, he then took the contrabassoon from the stand and layed it down flat on the ground, and finally picked up the paper again and unfurling it completely went on reading!
True! I was there!


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## Elgarian (Jul 30, 2008)

I once read a discussion of Bob Dylan's music (I can't remember for sure, but I think by Greil Marcus) which offered an idea - a kind of mental image, really - that I've found helpful ever since. It goes like this: the artist presents his work in a special kind of box, for us to contemplate. In order to appreciate properly what he's doing, we have to find some way of climbing inside the box with him. If we stay outside the box, we may get fragmentary glimmers of insight, but we'll never really appreciate what's going on.

The comments about classical music being 'relaxing', or 'repetitive' are made by people who are outside the box. There's no way of countering such comments really, because the business isn't a matter of argument - it's a matter of perception. Once you're inside the box, you don't need to be persuaded. You see it for yourself.

The reason I find the concept so useful is because it makes it possible to have an imaginative grasp of where all those comparable statements are coming from: statements such as "anyone can do that" (about abstract painting); "it's just a lot of unpleasant sounds" (about atonal music); or, indeed, "he can't sing" (about Bob Dylan).


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## PostMinimalist (May 14, 2008)

More Myths
The front desk of cellos in the Scottish Camber Orchestra was at one time two lads well known for their drinking abilities. There was a vacancy in the section and they had to give trials to some applicalnts which meant sitting at the front desk for a concert or two while the usual second palyer sat back in the section. There was one girl who was quite inoccent and of course the principle cellist got to the bar before the gig but didn't manage to get to the toilet before going on stage. The result was that he pissed himself onastage ifrint of this girl! He was so embarassed about the situation and he asked his mate to try to explain what happened. The second played immediately struck up a conversation with the girl about the first palyer and how good he was. Then he added that he gets very nervous on stage and sometimes he sweats rather a lot, at which point everybody else pissed themselves... laughing!


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## Guest (Dec 16, 2008)

Tapkaara said:


> Classical music is elevator music, it's for smart people, elitist snobs, it's dry, very serious, devoid of any carnal pleasure, and one must listen while sporting a look of haughty disdain. I always wear my tuxedo when I listen to classical, even at home.


I must admit that some is better suited to the elevator [W.A.M]? but smart people don't use elevators, `The rest of your post makes no sense


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## jimmosk (Dec 11, 2008)

nefigah, I'm certain your friend's impression that classical music is "too repetitious" is really about the length of pieces -- "twenty minutes ago this piece had a piano stomping around with an orchestra playing under it, and it _still_ has a piano in the foreground accompanied by an orchestra!" And it's quite true that if your experience of music is that a song lasts four minutes and then stops (or fades out), a concerto or a symphony is this unbelievably extended thing. Maybe some Slavonic Dances or lieder would be a good gateway drug...

-J

-- 
Jim Moskowitz 
The Unknown Composers Page: http://kith.org/jimmosk/TOC.html 
My latest list of unusual classical CDs for auction: http://tinyurl.com/527t7


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## Guest (Dec 16, 2008)

*Tapkaara * _* Devoid of carnal pleasure ???*_ 










*What do you want "Porn"??*


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## Tapkaara (Apr 18, 2006)

Hahaha...is that cover FOR REAL???

Carmina Burana is relaxing classical music that always helps me smooth out my day. It's so pretty and relaxing.


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## Guest (Dec 16, 2008)

Tapkaara said:


> Hahaha...is that cover FOR REAL???


It is genuine = Philips 422 363-2 Rec 1989 
Cover= illustration Silvan Steelbrink, Art direction: George Cramer, I am not sure what he was directing  probably the name of an"Art House"


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## SPR (Nov 12, 2008)

Its shameless really. Debauchery and scantily clad women everywhere... frankly, I am considerably offended.

(this disgusting scene from my Takacs quartet disc...)


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## Guest (Dec 16, 2008)

Perhaps we will get severely reprimanded by KH. or he will come up with something better


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## Rondo (Jul 11, 2007)

I have seen lots of classical CD covers like those, there's nothing that odd about them. And, the truth is, the pictures often relate to the history of the piece being played--they aren't _just _sales gimmicks. If it seems juxtaposed to you, then there's probably something you don't know about the piece in question.


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## Krummhorn (Feb 18, 2007)

No reprimands from me, Andante ... sent me looking for something to offer, but most of my CD covers have organs on them ... pipe organs, that is.


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## Guest (Dec 16, 2008)

Rondo said:


> I have seen lots of classical CD covers like those, there's nothing that odd about them. And, the truth is, the pictures often relate to the history of the piece being played--they aren't _just _sales gimmicks. If it seems juxtaposed to you, then there's probably something you don't know about the piece in question.


*Come on *it a bit of humour, we are fooling and fiddleing just as Elgar used to


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## Tapkaara (Apr 18, 2006)

Thank God for the occasional classical album cover that is actually interesting to look at. SO many classical recordings come with such bland, uninspired cover art. Maybe this ties into the spirit of this thread...

If someone is in the store and they see a recording for Beethoven's 5th Symphony, and the cover has a picture of a flower on it and it says in block letters: Beethoven, Symphony no. 5...does it really look all that exciting?

Boring covers suggest, I think, that the music therein must also be boring. If the cover looks like inoffensive wallpaper, then the music must be inoffensive elevator music. Just meant to be barely tasteful, and nothing more.

Maybe if there were more half-naked people on classical covers, they'd sell more. and more people would become acquianted with the music! Just a thought!

I think it's a GREAT and honest cover for Carmina Burana. It really has something to do with the music, and it makes a great visual to ponder while listening to those somewhat-bawdy Latin/old German lyrcis.


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## Weston (Jul 11, 2008)

Speaking of Carmina Burana - that's another classical myth. That "O Fortuna" was the soundtrack for _The Omen_. People must think it sounds evil because there's chanting . . .

It has been used in a number of movies however, including _The Doors_, and _Excaliber_, just not _The Omen_.


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## Weston (Jul 11, 2008)

Tapkaara said:


> Boring covers suggest, I think, that the music therein must also be boring. If the cover looks like inoffensive wallpaper, then the music must be inoffensive elevator music. Just meant to be barely tasteful, and nothing more.


I never thought of it that way before. You're absolutely right. I like the occasional impressionist paintings on the covers, but usually they have nothing whatsoever to do with the music. I would love to be an art director for a classical music label -- though I wouldn't necessarily try to make it all carnal like pop diva covers.

Someone should start a great classical album cover thread if there isn't one already.


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## SPR (Nov 12, 2008)

Rondo said:


> I have seen lots of classical CD covers like those, there's nothing that odd about them. And, the truth is, the pictures often relate to the history of the piece being played--they aren't _just _sales gimmicks. If it seems juxtaposed to you, then there's probably something you don't know about the piece in question.


(sigh) 

I think these posts, certainly mine... were not *entirely* serious. All in fun.


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## SPR (Nov 12, 2008)

Tapkaara said:


> ...Boring covers suggest, I think, that the music therein must also be boring. If the cover looks like inoffensive wallpaper, then the music must be inoffensive elevator music. Just meant to be barely tasteful, and nothing more.
> ...


Ever heard the phrase, you cant judge a book by its cover?

My Beethoven quartets do indeed look like wallpaper. Grosse Fuge: elevator music? I should think not.  









Lets get back to the thread at hand however and move the album art discussion elsewhere, shall we?


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## Rondo (Jul 11, 2007)

I know,...just trying to rationalize it all, I guess. If albums had no art to show online, I wonder if sales would actually drop?



SPR said:


> Lets get back to the thread at hand however and move the album art discussion elsewhere, shall we?


I was about to mention that. I think the point has been made here. "Interesting" album covers would be a great thread topic.


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## Guest (Dec 17, 2008)

_*Advertising is one of the most powerful tools, just look at Nature*_
I have a lot of early CDs with covers taken from all the old masters etc. 
*Weston*,Re CD cover thread, I have often thought the same regarding some of the old covers


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## Tapkaara (Apr 18, 2006)

http://www.talkclassical.com/4068-great-classical-album-covers.html#post34163

I created an album cover thread at the link above.


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## Yagan Kiely (Feb 6, 2008)

Lol: "Seiji Ozawa"

*cough*Maria Ozawa*cough*

Does anyone else understand the funnys of that or.... am I the only one who parades estranged vicissitudes of /b/?

APOLOGIES RULES 1 & 2!!!


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## phoenixshade (Dec 9, 2008)

> am I the only one who parades estranged vicissitudes of /b/?


You are not alone.


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## Christi (Nov 21, 2008)

nefigah said:


> Recently, there was a swell thread here about the common viewpoint that all classical music is "relaxing."


I agree w/ you


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## Freddie von Rost (Dec 3, 2013)

jhar26 said:


> I think that the biggest problem is that many think that it's too complicated for them to enjoy it. They may respect it but think it's beyond them - or expect that it would be beyond them if they tried, and so they don't think it's worth the effort.
> 
> Another prejudice that I've heard quite a few times is that classical music is establishment music and music for the rich. They basically think it's music for snobs while popular music genres such as rock, folk, jazz, blues, country, and so on is the music for the common man.


Agree totally. I hate it when people state that classical music is only for posh people/intellectuals/snobs. Very much a Brit habit. Also, do not get me started on the: I hate classical music, but have you ever listened to classical music, no but I hate classical music, morons.

My head will probably explode.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Freddie von Rost said:


> I hate it when people state that classical music is only for posh people/intellectuals/snobs.


Really, my good fellow, I *must* disagree. It would seem obvious to all of us, I think, that classical music is superior to other forms of the art. And by extension, those with the discernment to listen to it are superior as well. Of course you may disagree -- after all, good men differ. But...really!


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

KenOC said:


> Really, my good fellow, I *must* disagree. It would seem obvious to all of us, I think, that classical music is superior to other forms of the art. And by extension, those with the discernment to listen to it are superior as well. Of course you may disagree -- after all, good men differ. But...really!


Ironically, I was contemplating putting in this counter de-bunk while, it seems, you were making the above post.

"It is for everybody."
DE-BUNK: _Just not so, then or now._ Ditto Jazz of the less 'soft' variety, vs some of the more mainstream ala Brubeck, or what people now believe is soft jazz but is really pop mush, like the inimitable Kenny G.

DE-BUNK You do NOT need at least one college level course in music appreciation, nor any sort of understanding of Sonata Allegro form, or to know exactly what is the procedure of a fugue, to enjoy listening to any of it.


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## Cosmos (Jun 28, 2013)

"Classical is good study music" sure if you pay no attention to it. With that logic, it doesn't matter what music you listen to
"Classical music makes you smarter" eh no it doesn't
"Classical's too boring" That's your opinion. I personally find a lot of pop boring
"Classical has no beat" Really. Think about what you're suggesting


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

Cosmos said:


> "*Classical is good study music" sure if you pay no attention to it. With that logic, it doesn't matter what music you listen to.*
> "Classical music makes you smarter" eh no it doesn't
> "Classical's too boring" That's your opinion. I personally find a lot of pop boring
> "*Classical has no beat" Really. Think about what you're suggesting*


Oooooh, you're really good!

Thanks


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

Freddie von Rost said:


> Agree totally. I hate it when people state that classical music is only for posh people/intellectuals/snobs. Very much a Brit habit. Also, do not get me started on the: I hate classical music, but have you ever listened to classical music, no but I hate classical music, morons.
> 
> My head will probably explode.


Whar generalising, It's not a Brit habit and there are plenty of snobs in the States and probably everywhere.


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

moody said:


> Whar generalising, It's not a Brit habit and there are plenty of snobs in the states and probably everywhere.


Having lived in Europe, Being American, having read numerous posts from Americans, Brits, and Australians on TC which comment on the social 'split' or issues surrounding classical music on this forum, I can _somewhat_ safely generalize it is _more_ of an Anglo / former Anglo colony - culture thing more than it is a European thing.

(I won't guess at the general social attitude of non-western countries.)


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

PetrB said:


> Having lived in Europe, Being American, having read numerous posts from from Americans, Brits, and Australians on TC which comment on the social 'split' or issues surrounding classical music on this forum, I can _somewhat_ safely generalize it is an Anglo / former Anglo colony - culture thing more than it is a European thing.
> 
> (I won't guess at the general social attitude of non-western countries.)


Good to see you up and about.
There is a great paucity of good material here at present and I get a sense of barrel scraping in the air.


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

moody said:


> Good to see you up and about.
> There is a great paucity of good material here at present and I get a sense of barrel scraping in the air.


Well, pal, someone has to post something strong enough to get your dander up -- wouldn't want you to go off because of lack of adrenaline, now.

Barrel scraping.... hmmm. Several barrels, different heights and diameters, a number of skilled scrapers, and I think we've got the potential for a good piece of music.


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

PetrB said:


> Well, pal, someone has to post something strong enough to get your dander up -- wouldn't want you to go off because of lack of adrenaline, now.
> 
> Barrel scraping.... hmmm. Several barrels, different heights and diameters, a number of skilled scrapers, and I think we've got the potential for a good piece of music.


I was just saying that I'm in a state almost of hibernation as it's all so boring here at present.
I suppose it must be seasonal thing--mind you, you are in there but then you'll answer most anything won't you---as a platform to spread the word to all the lost souls around us.


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## Piwikiwi (Apr 1, 2011)

PetrB said:


> Ironically, I was contemplating putting in this counter de-bunk while, it seems, you were making the above post.
> 
> "It is for everybody."
> DE-BUNK: _Just not so, then or now._ Ditto Jazz of the less 'soft' variety, vs some of the more mainstream ala Brubeck, or what people now believe is soft jazz but is really pop mush, like the inimitable Kenny G.
> ...


Why wouldn't you want to learn more about the music you love so much?


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

Piwikiwi said:


> Why wouldn't you want to learn more about the music you love so much?


You missed the point entirely -- some poor intimidated souls attracted to classical think they need to know all about it prior to being able to access and enjoy it, and some folk already 'in the know' are the perpetrators of that myth.


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## Piwikiwi (Apr 1, 2011)

PetrB said:


> You missed the point entirely -- some poor intimidated souls attracted to classical think they need to know all about it prior to being able to access and enjoy it, and some folk already 'in the know' are the perpetrators of that myth.


I got your point but my apologies if I didn't make that clear. It just seems that you are very vocal that you don't need any understanding of music to appreciate it.


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

Piwikiwi said:


> I got your point but my apologies if I didn't make that clear. *It just seems that you are very vocal that you don't need any understanding of music to appreciate it.*


I am, because you don't need a college course or beyond to enjoy it _or to appreciate it_.

Want to more specifically be able to follow and appreciate more of what you're hearing? Then study up a bit, of course 

Music is an art of the senses, all you need to enjoy it is a fairly intact sense of hearing.


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## starry (Jun 2, 2009)

Piwikiwi said:


> Why wouldn't you want to learn more about the music you love so much?


The best way to learn about music is by listening to as much of it as possible.


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## Freddie von Rost (Dec 3, 2013)

moody said:


> What generalising, It's not a Brit habit and there are plenty of snobs in the States and probably everywhere.


It is too. We will just have to agree to disagree.


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## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

Classical music myth #1: Classical music died in the year 19XX.


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## aleazk (Sep 30, 2011)

Mahlerian said:


> Classical music myth #1: Classical music died in the year 19XX.


General myth #1: things like art, history, science, philosophy, etc., "die"...


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## Copperears (Nov 10, 2013)

I'd held off listening to R. Strauss tone poems for a long while, as they are quite addictive.

I never realized until tonight that Don Quixote op.35 features at one point an attack of zombie killer sheep.

How is that supposed to be relaxing?! Plus then there's this drunk waltz..... 

And this is his early stuff!

And then later on, a love song to a sheep, and then it just gets crazier from there on out! The Dies Irae procession of monks in the distance, who scare off the zombie sheep.... the Don's special pleading for his mission.... The nice long quiet passage suddenly interrupted by death-metal chugging strokes.... Mr. Quixote, clearly on magic mushrooms. It all ends peacefully, at least after the argument between the drunken Quixote and the dance band..... quite a lot packed in there! Oh and of course a huge windstorm, forgot about that.


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

Freddie von Rost said:


> It is too. We will just have to agree to disagree.


I don't agree to disagree about anything,I look for proof.
Having spent 68 years listening to music all over the place and having for some time spent seven months of the year in the States I think that there are certainly more musical snobs there. Go along to the opera, say in Dallas, and watch the parade and the flaunting of huge wealth with no real knowledge.
If you glance again at PetrB's post no. 40 above, you will see that the former Anglo colony is actually the USA and he's been around a bit and ,as he'll tell you, he is a real musician.


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## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

moody said:


> I don't agree to disagree about anything,I look for proof.
> Having spent 68 years listening to music all over the place and having for some time spent seven months of the year in the States I think that there are certainly more musical snobs there. Go along to the opera, say in Dallas, and watch the parade and the flaunting of huge wealth with no real knowledge.
> If you glance again at PetrB's post no. 40 above, you will see that the former Anglo colony is actually the USA and he's been around a bit and ,as he'll tell you, he is a real musician.


But _moody_, Dallas is full of Texans, many of whom follow the admonition "If you got it, flaunt it." We used to have opera houses in Vermont too. I remember going to one to see/hear a touring group from the WWVA Jamboree.


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

Mahlerian said:


> Classical music myth #1: Classical music died in the year 19XX.


Oh, yeah -- the one that is so patently absurd that I forgot it, but, Oh, Yeah!


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

Ukko said:


> But _moody_, Dallas is full of Texans, many of whom follow the admonition "If you got it, flaunt it." We used to have opera houses in Vermont too. I remember going to one to see/hear a touring group from the WWVA Jamboree.


Ladies, Gentlemen and Tenors: Britain is / was a very class bound society: its former colonies, U.S. of America and Australia, were a titch reactionary in going out of their way to be a more populist, or at least far less a class-bound society.

Whether in Merry Olde England or these other places, class system in place or removed, people still react to that class structure and act out (remove a system, create a void.)

"High Culture" is often thought to be one bailiwick the upper crusts inhabit, so that playground is going to be a conscious destination goal for some, and there you will hear all sorts of put-downs and one-upsmanship flying around the field 

It is the especial nature of the _arriviste_ to put down neophytes and those who have not yet, in their estimation, also arrived -- _they are actually compelled to do so in order to distance themselves from the very in-the-face reminders of who they were not so very long ago._ ... and there is plenty of that around and about higher culture in both Britain, Australia, and the good ole U.S. of A.


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

PetrB said:


> Ladies, Gentlemen and Tenors: Britain is / was a very class bound society: its former colonies, U.S. of America and Australia, were a titch reactionary in going out of their way to be a more populist, or at least far less class-bound society.
> 
> Whether in Merry Olde England or these other places, class system in place or removed, people still react to that class structure and act out (remove a system, create a void. "High Culture" is often thought to be one bailiwick the upper crusts inhabit, so that playground is going to have all sorts of put-downs and one-upsmanship flying around the field
> 
> It is the especial nature of the _arriviste_ to put down neophytes and those who have not yet, in their estimation, also arrived -- _they are actually compelled to do so in order to distance themselves from the very in-the-face reminders of who they were not so very long ago._ ... and there is plenty that around and about higher culture in both Britain and the good ole U.S. of A.


Exactly,all I am trying to say is that the UK holds no monopoly in this. But there is a difference and you have hit upon it,the types in Dallas think they have to go to the opera to prove they've "arrived".
Whereas the posh snobs in the UK actually prefer to be fairly scruffy in dress, as long as they are from the upper class, The noveau riche are similar to the Dallas crowd.
But let me get one thing straight ,I love Dallas and was treated so well there and was given great hospitality at all times.
We are talking about music snobs who are a disease throughout the western world probably. Don't have experience of Australia .


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## mikey (Nov 26, 2013)

There's no doubt that it needs and image change - I remember watching Vienna Phil play a Haydn symphony and start chuckling quietly to myself (hell, it's Haydn!) and had many a glare from the surrounding audience.
But I also think that as people's attention spans grow shorter and we get lazier (in general), people find it hard to concentrate on solely listening to a piece of music. Oddly enough, I think this applies less to films and plays...maybe it's the visual aspect missing, maybe it's coz music is so geared towards dancing nowadays and people can just turn to autopilot, I don't know. But what really pisses me off is how so called musicians are being bred through TV shows.
A bit of a ramble on slightly different topics, but whatever...


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

moody said:


> Exactly,all I am trying to say is that the UK holds no monopoly in this. But there is a difference and you have hit upon it,the types in Dallas think they have to go to the opera to prove they've "arrived".
> Whereas the posh snobs in the UK actually prefer to be fairly scruffy in dress, as long as they are from the upper class, The noveau riche are similar to the Dallas crowd.
> But let me get one thing straight ,I love Dallas and was treated so well there and was given great hospitality at all times.
> We are talking about music snobs who are a disease throughout the western world probably. Don't have experience of Australia .


Funny, i.e. Upper Crust in England are known to "dress down," including never wearing a new garment out until it is somewhat broken in -- considered gauche, I guess, to make a deal of its being new or showing that off. So, observant those U.K. arrivistes and copiers are, then, to also go in outfits a bit dowdy or shabby-chic.


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## science (Oct 14, 2010)

PetrB said:


> Funny, i.e. Upper Crust in England are known to "dress down," including never wearing a new garment out until it is somewhat broken in -- considered gauche, I guess, to make a deal of its being new or showing that off. So, observant those U.K. arrivistes and copiers are, then, to also go in outfits a bit dowdy or shabby-chic.


I don't know how common this view was, but at least among the upper crust of New York City in the late 19th century (c. 1870 to c. 1890), it was considered improper for a lady to wear a dress that was less than a year old. They didn't try to make the dress look old or anything, they just stored it for a year and then wore it. There was a sense that new fashions were always a bit scandalous, so a lady had to be a bit behind the times to be above reproach. But I suspect that part of it was also an attempt to distinguish old money (who followed these rules) from new money (who didn't).


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## Copperears (Nov 10, 2013)

Then on the other hand, there's this:





And in one of the more recent comments:

_Amazing voice! But .. there is no 'short cut' to singing opera. If you are familiar with it you will already know this, and hear the faults between the real thing and his faux/ memorized version. He can still make a career as a singing 'entertainer' with-out training, but stay away from opera and classics, where the audience expects perfection. For me, I really enjoy listening to him, and that's all that is important!_

The combination begs the question, for me: does he get "faulted" for not being a professional opera singer, or praised for having the enthusiasm for singing the music he does? And, who's to judge what really matters? 18 million hits, that's 18 million people who've at least gotten a taste of that aria (which is it, btw?).

In any event it continues to lead to the consideration of how classical music can continue to be of interest to future generations, what is retained, what is lost, what matters, what doesn't. A certain amount of stuffiness and snobbery in the ongoing sports game of "who's best, what record's best, which composer's best, etc. etc." really doesn't help, as far as I'm concerned.


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## Igneous01 (Jan 27, 2011)

Before I bought Bach's St Mathews passion on cd (my first classical purchase years ago) I had the conception that classical music sounds like Haydn and Mozart, very upbeat and pristine, and that the genre carried with it only 1 kind of sound (like most other genres do). The biggest wake up for me was when I realized there was so much depth to the genre, and that I could find music by composers that I would actually enjoy. 

It was amazing to realize that I didn't have to like Beethoven's symphonies to love his quartets and piano sonatas, 3 very distinct sounds from a single person. 


I think a lot of the myth about classical is that there is no 'choice', that, similar to other genres, it only has 1 distinctive sound, and if you dont like it, you wont find anything there.

I've had a lot people stunned when I played Schuberts Death and the Maiden, and Beethovens Op. 131, they had no idea that classical could sound like this! People thought it was all about relaxing with Mozart and Haydn with plump and pristine rhythms and melodies. They didn't know there was some 'dirt' to the music, or at least, the expression of sometimes dark and vulgar emotions, and even vulnerability and humility. 

I think if people knew these things, they would have very different opinions on the matter.


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

Copperears said:


> And, who's to judge what really matters? 18 million hits, that's 18 million people who've at least gotten a taste of that aria (which is it, btw?).


Puccini's O mio babbino caro (Gianni Schicchi).


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

So many people making life hard for themselves. I don't recognise most of these descriptions or similar comments on other threads. Nobody ever got at me about classical music even when I was very young,I met people who didn't want to know and laughed it off as a minority thing--which it is--but I found that people from every walk of life were fans.


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## mstar (Aug 14, 2013)

nefigah said:


> Recently, there was a swell thread here about the common viewpoint that all classical music is "relaxing." Similarly, the other day I lent some music to a friend of mine as he was going on a long car trip. His comment? "Classical music is too repetitive." Boy, did that one baffle me a bit... out of all the genres to call repetitive! I didn't take the issue much further with him, but it got me thinking about how I would respond.
> 
> Are you aware of any other widely-held generalizations about classical music that you don't hold to be correct? How would you address them?


"Classical music is all the same."

Yes, Ligeti is just Tchaikovsky.


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

Igneous01 said:


> I had the conception that classical music sounds like Haydn and Mozart, very upbeat and pristine, and that the genre carried with it only 1 kind of sound (like most other genres do).


That "classical" might be thought of by the uninitiated to have the sameness of a particular pop genre never would have occurred to me. Thanks!


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## SiegendesLicht (Mar 4, 2012)

Concerning musical snobbery: sometimes the attitude which may be perceived as snobbish on the outside, comes not from snobbery at all, but from a good taste and a discriminating mind, fostered by love of classical music. When you get to know real art and real beauty, the "latest hits" that make up the musical diet of many people, come across as the mediocre, talentless rubbish they really are, whose only value is in the background music for the "show" and in the producers' wallets. But then you have to explain just _why_ you feel uncomfortable in a cafe blasting the latest hits at full strength, or why you would rather that the person giving you a ride home switched off the radio, since it is Friday night, you are eagerly awaiting an opera feast at home and don't want all those beats swirling in your head. And that is when you come across as snobbish. But the only thing you are guilty of, in reality, is the ability to tell trash from diamonds.


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## Copperears (Nov 10, 2013)

Or, actually, you might really just *be* a stuffy snob, as illiterate about what you call "trash" as those who consider classical music elevator music are about classical. Maybe even more so.

My experience with people who like classical music is that both things are usually true.

Which is why I'm glad I never spent my life stuck in the sarcophagus in the museum.


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## Blake (Nov 6, 2013)

Thankfully, I'm well versed in many forms of music. And most people would have no idea how much I love Classical music if I didn't mention it. It's a bore to try and explain your position to people you know aren't really open to it... when they just want to be nosey because minding their own business is an elusive concept. 

If you want to talk Rock n' Roll, Blues, Jazz, Metal, World, Electronica... I dig that too. Just don't come to me about people like Lady Gaga or Lil Wayne. Sorry, I have no energy to give to that... and I would probably purposely make you wish you hadn't tried. 
:tiphat:


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## Copperears (Nov 10, 2013)

I simply take Socrates' stance: nothing human is alien to me. :tiphat:

I've lived a far fuller life than anyone I know or can even imagine as a result, so no complaints here; I just feel sad for people with their blinders on, and will not be trapped by their prejudices or small-mindedness.


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## Blake (Nov 6, 2013)

Yea, I still have my youth... and my angst can get the best of me sometimes. S'all good.


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## mikey (Nov 26, 2013)

Igneous01 said:


> Before I bought Bach's St Mathews passion on cd (my first classical purchase years ago) I had the conception that classical music sounds like Haydn and Mozart, very upbeat and pristine, and that the genre carried with it only 1 kind of sound (like most other genres do). The biggest wake up for me was when I realized there was so much depth to the genre, and that I could find music by composers that I would actually enjoy.
> 
> It was amazing to realize that I didn't have to like Beethoven's symphonies to love his quartets and piano sonatas, 3 very distinct sounds from a single person.
> 
> ...


I assume (or hope) you're making a gross generalization coz although Haydn and Mozart don't attain the sheer volume or brashness or Beethoven, they are certainly not always 'upbeat and pristine'. Take Mozart's Adagio in bmin or the finale from Haydn's Seven Last Words.


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## senza sordino (Oct 20, 2013)

I listen to classical music at work, I teach at a high school. Many think I listen to relax after a day with teenagers. Shostakovich Symphonies 5, 7, 8 10 is anything but relaxing. 

The myth is that classical music is nice and relaxing.


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

Copperears said:


> Then on the other hand, there's this:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


18 million people heard a snippet of a Puccini aria, and that snippet, even, cut to shreds as it was, was not at all the real deal. The most real deal present in that link is the successful use of unpaid personnel who sometimes, for the Television Network, pay off in spades in what is called (it is on the video) "A great Television Moment." -- _"What a moment!"_

Moment it was, the sentimental engineering and manipulation of both moment, contestant, and audience on the part of the jury, on the fly once they realized what they had in hand, was astonishing and profoundly deft.

18 million people exposed to a severely cut to ribbons snippet of Puccini, and that not the real thing at all.

You tell me the "value" of that.


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## starry (Jun 2, 2009)

It's that ability to compose for a whole lot of different instruments and combinations of them that must be one of the main things that sets many classical composers apart from most popular music people (much as I love popular music). You can get great diversity in popular music but I think you need to listen to more people and more styles to get a fuller picture.


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## arpeggio (Oct 4, 2012)

*Record collections*

There are some who think that by having a large record library it qualifies them as an expert on classical music. Even is a person has a hundred recordings of Beethoven's _Fifth Symphony_, he will never hear it the same way as Klemperer does.


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

arpeggio said:


> There are some who think that by having a large record library it qualifies them as an expert on classical music. Even is a person has a hundred recordings of Beethoven's _Fifth Symphony_, he will never hear it the same way as Klemperer does.


All music was written for an audience and certainly not for experts .You get to be an expert as an audience member by listening to records, the radio and attending concerts. Do you really think that everyone should study music before giving an opinion ?
I can't play an instrument or read music, but I bet I know more than most people about music through sheer long experience.
Why would someone want to hear it the way Klemperer did, perhaps you would explain the whole point behind your comments ?


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## LordBlackudder (Nov 13, 2010)

people will listen to any old crap if it gets them girlfriends, social life, religion or charity related.

i suppose being passive and easily led is good for survival.


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## Blake (Nov 6, 2013)

I don't have friends and I don't want any. :tiphat:


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## Copperears (Nov 10, 2013)

PetrB said:


> 18 million people heard a snippet of a Puccini aria, and that snippet, even, cut to shreds as it was, was not at all the real deal. The most real deal present in that link is the successful use of unpaid personnel who sometimes, for the Television Network, pay off in spades in what is called (it is on the video) "A great Television Moment." -- _"What a moment!"_
> 
> Moment it was, the sentimental engineering and manipulation of both moment, contestant, and audience on the part of the jury, on the fly once they realized what they had in hand, was astonishing and profoundly deft.
> 
> ...


It's not Leonard Bernstein conducting a free concert in Central Park, NYC, for sure. I'd be happy to share your cynicism.

But, I had my B-vitamins this morning and still think that even chopped-up Puccini for a few moments on YouTube will catch enough attention to lead to at least _some_ of the 18 million people who watched it to wonder about opera for the first time in their lives.

And in that way, it is always invaluable. Plus, whether canned scheme or honest passion, there's at least the model of someone with personal aspirations to do something other than fulfill the stereotyped life of a debt slave to some major corporation in an office somewhere.

If it's just to generate more cannon fodder for the corporate media vampire industry to feed on, yes; this is pernicious. But even the most pernicious of things can get out of control and go to unexpected places, as history has repeatedly shown (and otherwise, road to Peoria paved with good intentions, etc.).


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## Copperears (Nov 10, 2013)

Vesuvius said:


> I don't have friends and I don't want any. :tiphat:


Friends are usually a waste of time, unless the whole point of your life is lawn care.


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## HaydnBearstheClock (Jul 6, 2013)

Vesuvius said:


> I don't have friends and I don't want any. :tiphat:


That surprises me, I always like your comments on TC .


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

LordBlackudder said:


> people will listen to any old crap if it gets them girlfriends, social life, religion or charity related.
> 
> i suppose being passive and easily led is good for survival.


You're right of course, a lot of Germans thought like that in the thirties.


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## science (Oct 14, 2010)

moody said:


> All music was written for an audience and certainly not for experts .You get to be an expert as an audience member by listening to records, the radio and attending concerts. Do you really think that everyone should study music before giving an opinion ?
> I can't play an instrument or read music, but I bet I know more than most people about music through sheer long experience.
> Why would someone want to hear it the way Klemperer did, perhaps you would explain the whole point behind your comments ?


I'm not sure this is right, especially since WWII "classical" music has often been written for academic audiences - just as most, say, history texts are written for other historians, or most science papers written for other researchers in the same discipline, or most literary fiction written to impress literature professors. Those experts exist to serve as gateways through which claims must pass to the rest of us, prejudged for our benefit. Whether this makes as much sense in the arts as it does in more objective disciplines is a question I dare not ask.

Fortunately, we live in the postmodern era with the consciousness that every author is a dead author, and the text is ours now, not his. We occupy it freely, paying no rent. So even if a composer intended to write music that was above trash-people like me, 
I feel perfectly free to enjoy it in spite of the composer's intention. (This is the attitude I take toward the other cultural gatekeepers, which is easy because fragile bubbles are the easiest to pop, and fun because the biggest ones make the most noise when they're pricked.)

But more seriously, I am grateful to the experts for a lot of the work they do - even if people like me don't grant them as much authority as they believe they deserve, and perhaps that makes them resentful of our presumption, it's still really convenient for me that someone spends their life looking for connections between Stravinsky and Charlie Parker's music, or trying to figure out why Britten and Shostakovich were more popular than Dutilleux and Ligeti for a generation after WWII. They can do all that work, come to some fantastic conclusion, declare it as pithily as possible, so that I can nod wisely and know a bit more than I otherwise would.


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## Blake (Nov 6, 2013)

Copperears said:


> Friends are usually a waste of time, unless the whole point of your life is lawn care.


Haha, that's hilarious as I do landscaping and lawn care. The irony.



HaydnBearstheClock said:


> That surprises me, I always like your comments on TC .


Thanks, brother. I've had plenty of friends, but honestly it was more of a hassle than anything else.


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## dgee (Sep 26, 2013)

This notion of music being written for an audience seems emphatically wrong to me (don't flatter yourselves, audience!). Music is written because composers want to express themselves. Even in the case of commissions or patronage it seems the first and foremost concern is one of expression. 

Boring claim re contemporary writing for an academic audience needs singling out also - just composers writing because they want to express! Just because it doesn't delight you, doesn't mean it's not meant for you - just means you're not interested in that sort of expression

And there will be heaps of exceptions, I'm sure, but I think expression rather than audience delight must be your starting point in terms of what a composer is doing and why


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

science said:


> I'm not sure this is right, especially since WWII "classical" music has often been written for academic audiences - just as most, say, history texts are written for other historians, or most science papers written for other researchers in the same discipline, or most literary fiction written to impress literature professors. Those experts exist to serve as gateways through which claims must pass to the rest of us, prejudged for our benefit. Whether this makes as much sense in the arts as it does in more objective disciplines is a question I dare not ask.
> 
> Fortunately, we live in the postmodern era with the consciousness that every author is a dead author, and the text is ours now, not his. We occupy it freely, paying no rent. So even if a composer intended to write music that was above trash-people like me,
> I feel perfectly free to enjoy it in spite of the composer's intention. (This is the attitude I take toward the other cultural gatekeepers, which is easy because fragile bubbles are the easiest to pop, and fun because the biggest ones make the most noise when they're pricked.)
> ...


I don't buy that,how would these composers make a living if it were true. Though to be fair I didn't take music written since WWII
into account because I don't listen to it.
Arpeggio's comment was that some people think that they are experts because they have a large record collection.
We have to draw a line here between technical experts such as Academy professors and experts on music as an experience. If you read my post again you will see that I am attacking this concept, I'm sure that he's an expert on an instrument of some sort.


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## arpeggio (Oct 4, 2012)

*No Way*



moody said:


> All music was written for an audience and certainly not for experts .You get to be an expert as an audience member by listening to records, the radio and attending concerts. Do you really think that everyone should study music before giving an opinion ?
> I can't play an instrument or read music, but I bet I know more than most people about music through sheer long experience.
> Why would someone want to hear it the way Temperer did, perhaps you would explain the whole point behind your comments ?


Moody,

You are an intelligent person. You know perfectly well the point I was trying to make. You dislike it and are trying to provoke a fight. Well I am not biting.


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

arpeggio said:


> There are some who think that by having a large record library it qualifies them as an expert on classical music. Even is a person has a hundred recordings of Beethoven's _Fifth Symphony_, he will never hear it the same way as Klemperer does.


A large record library is a good thing. There's no need to minimize its virtues.


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## ejsledge (Dec 6, 2013)

Some classical music is (very) repetitive. Stravinsky said the Antonio Vivaldi wrote the same concerto grosso 1000 times. After listening or playing it - it rings true to an extent. JS Back certainly wrote no repetitive music, unless you consider his ingenious sequences repetitive. Once at a concert, I asked someone what they thought about an early Mozart Symphony on the program - and they said it was too "predictable" or something like that. I'm sure Mozart would roll over in his grave if he suspected that anyone would view his music like that! All the great composers strive mightily to avoid being "predictable" - but after 2 or 3 hundred years of listening to some of the great masterpieces - you do ask yourself on occasion - "could this have been done differently??"


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

arpeggio said:


> Moody,
> 
> You are an intelligent person. You know perfectly well the point I was trying to make. You dislike it and are trying to provoke a fight. Well I am not biting.


As surprising as it may seem I don't know what you secretly mean,I thought you meant what you said.
As for provoking a fight I'm not in the least interested.
Perhaps you would like to explain or leave it as a mystery.


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## ejsledge (Dec 6, 2013)

and it could have. But one must make choices. Beethoven absolutely refused to make changes in the Missa Solemnis after singers and players complained about the difficulties. I, for one, am glad he refused !


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## ejsledge (Dec 6, 2013)

I think most artists try to compose something, whether it be visual, language or musical art - to the best of their ability and with a need to express something for themselves - as well as for others (but that is secondary). If it's true and well done, it will communicate - in some instances joy, sadness, serenity, tension (tension-release is the engine of a lot of music!) and even fear and terror (the Storm in Beethoven's Pastoral Symphony and other tone poems). The last thing any of them want to do is to satisfy any "academics" !


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## Wood (Feb 21, 2013)

arpeggio said:


> There are some who think that by having a large record library it qualifies them as an expert on classical music. Even is a person has a hundred recordings of Beethoven's _Fifth Symphony_, he will never hear it the same way as Klemperer does.


Yes, I would expect, in general, someone who listens widely to classical music to be more of an expert than one who doesn't.

Klemperer never heard classical music in the way that I hear it. How is this relevant?


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## apricissimus (May 15, 2013)

Wood said:


> Yes, I would expect, in general, someone who listens widely to classical music to be more of an expert than one who doesn't.
> 
> Klemperer never heard classical music in the way that I hear it. How is this relevant?


I think people like Klemperer are probably more sensitive and insightful when it comes to hearing music... which is perhaps one reason why they're well-known conductors.

I do think that some people are better at listening to music than others. Me, I'm just an amateur. If I made it my life's work, I'd get better at it, but it's also probably true that I don't have the same kind of innate talent that the best musicians in the world do.


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

Copperears said:


> It's not Leonard Bernstein conducting a free concert in Central Park, NYC, for sure. I'd be happy to share your cynicism.
> 
> But, I had my B-vitamins this morning and still think that even chopped-up Puccini for a few moments on YouTube will catch enough attention to lead to at least _some_ of the 18 million people who watched it to wonder about opera for the first time in their lives.
> 
> ...


*But that is the very purpose of those talent shows, they, and "reality TV" being some of the least expensive most profitable fare any network can put up. In your argument for you just defined, clearly, the mechanism which brought us that scissored up snippet of Puccini.*

The 'maybe this brought one person to classical' argument is a great PR rationale, proven by studies to not be at all valid. A popera performance brings in neophytes who will continue to consume popera. The rest is science fiction or Pollyanna-like wishful thinking, and that is not "cynical" but a matter of facts.

ADD; to buy in, at all, to this highly engineered "television moment," is playing into the hands of the very non-entity corporate beastie and all its ills, that wicked thing with which you seem to not want to play any part or support in any way. I find that very ironic


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## science (Oct 14, 2010)

I don't know why we can't just let the popera fans enjoy their music without bestowing our condescension upon them so liberally. Even if it really isn't objectively as good as the music we like, we can at least leave them to it without trying to instil a sense of our superiority in them. All the latter does is make them resent us and our music. Perhaps that's ok if our goal is to make ourselves even more elite by excluding more people, but at any rate that's not my goal.


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

science said:


> I don't know why we can't just let the popera fans enjoy their music without bestowing our condescension upon them so liberally. Even if it really isn't objectively as good as the music we like, we can at least leave them to it without trying to instil a sense of our superiority in them. All the latter does is make them resent us and our music. Perhaps that's ok if our goal is to make ourselves even more elite by excluding more people, but at any rate that's not my goal.


I'm rather tired of one way politically correct streets myself  If "they" stop insisting it is opera, that TV talent show presentations of a snippet of this or that aria, cut to shreds and sung in a quasi pop style, etc. are an invitation to one of 18 million people to come visit the real classical building, I would have no reason to say anything about it.

What you propose is the roll over, play dead, or better -- die, and let the invader take over your home sort of mentality, and I'm having none of that, thanks.


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

Wood said:


> Yes, I would expect, in general, someone who listens widely to classical music to be more of an expert than one who doesn't.
> 
> Klemperer never heard classical music in the way that I hear it. How is this relevant?


Without denigrating either experience, let's remind everyone that the term Expert is derived from Experience, and then ask all to consider how expert the frequent plane passenger is compared to the professional pilot.


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## science (Oct 14, 2010)

PetrB said:


> I'm rather tired of one way politically correct streets myself  If "they" stop insisting it is opera, that TV talent show presentations of a snippet of this or that aria, cut to shreds and sung in a quasi pop style, etc. are an invitation to one of 18 million people to come visit the real classical building, I would have no reason to say anything about it.
> 
> What you propose is the roll over, play dead, or better -- die, and let the invader take over your home sort of mentality, and I'm having none of that, thanks.


This war isn't taking place the real world. You're defending ground that no one is attacking. What's really going on is you're trying to put people in their place - you want to make sure they know how superior you are. You're probably also trying to make classical music and opera more intimidating or at least impressive. It's not about political correctness or musical quality or anything else except relative status.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

science said:


> ...you want to make sure they know how superior you are.


Science, a lot o' that going on. As usual. No prob if it's accompanied by a sense of humor (but it seldom is, alas).


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

......................................................................................


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

science said:


> This war isn't taking place the real world.


I think the only place there is a war here is between your ears.

Right. Let's discuss art.

O.K. Green is Purple, there are no distinctions.

Your turn. Go.


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## science (Oct 14, 2010)

PetrB said:


> I think the only place there is a war here is between your ears.
> 
> Right. Let's discuss art.
> 
> ...


Insisting that it's opera? You show me that happening. I don't see the big movement trying to get a Josh Groban concert treated as an opera, or a CD of his treated as a recording of an opera. In fact, almost the opposite.

The thing isn't that the other side is saying that "green is purple." They're saying, "we like green and we're fine with that even though it's not purple," and you're insisting on them acknowledging that purple is better no matter what they like. The "better" is brazenly explicitly in your diction - "snippet," "cut to shreds," "real." You may even sincerely believe your intentions are so cleverly masked, but that's pretty easy to spot. You're not attempting value-neutral description that only accidentally if at all denigrates the green. You're denigrating it on purpose to defend the privileged social position of purple - which by and large the green fans acknowledge explicitly though perhaps too apathetically for your satisfaction.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Getting back to the original topic about debunking myths. One myth I would like to debunk is that put out by critics who raved about how marvellous Chailly's Beethoven symphonies were. I bought them on that basis but they have been one of my worst ever purchass. Despite the brilliant recording and superb orchestral laying, every note to me seems rushed of its feet, I thought it just might be slippered old-age me but notices Richard Osborne talks about an 'unseemly blur' in the eigth symphony. I'll be interested to notice whether the ecstasy that greeted this set stands the test of time.


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## Wood (Feb 21, 2013)

PetrB said:


> Without denigrating either experience, let's remind everyone that the term Expert is derived from Experience, and then ask all to consider how expert the frequent plane passenger is compared to the professional pilot.


Yes. Actually, my post was rubbish.


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

PetrB said:


> Without denigrating either experience, let's remind everyone that the term Expert is derived from Experience, and then ask all to consider how expert the frequent plane passenger is compared to the professional pilot.


You miss the point,the frequent plane passenger is an expert at being a passenger.


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## Wood (Feb 21, 2013)

Wood said:


> Yes. Actually, my post was rubbish.


In fact, this post was rubbish. My previous post was fine.

I think.


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## science (Oct 14, 2010)

I wonder if it's possible to simultaneously maintain the value of knowledge and the validity of each listener's subjectivity?

If not, it's too hot in here for me and I'll have to flee the flames!* But if we can bring together those principles comfortably, I'll keep chilling.

*My ever-intrusive auto-correct initially rendered "flames" as "females." Rest assured women of the world, I'll not be fleeing females any time soon. At least not human females. Females of the big cat species, I will flee. Considering this POV I suppose human females are actually the exception to my intention to flee females in general.


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## Pantheon (Jun 9, 2013)

A few things I heard recently :

"There's no art in opera it's just wailing" ... No comment.
"Wagner is Nazi music" Wagner: 1813-1883; Nazism: 1933-.. get my point ? 
"Classical music is depressing" ... A bit of a limited opinion.
"How can you like that? It's long and you can never remember the titles of the pieces" Many rock pieces exceed 10-20 minutes, and I can remember opus numbers just fine thank you. And seriously are "Sonata" or "Prelude" that hard to remember ?


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## Copperears (Nov 10, 2013)

PetrB said:


> *But that is the very purpose of those talent shows, they, and "reality TV" being some of the least expensive most profitable fare any network can put up. In your argument you just defined, clearly, the mechanism which brought us that scissored up snippet of Puccini.*
> 
> The 'maybe this brought one person to classical' argument is a great PR rationale, proven by studies to not be at all valid. A popera performance brings in neophytes who will continue to consume popera. The rest is science fiction or Pollyanna-like wishful thinking, and that is not "cynical" but a matter of facts.
> 
> ADD; to buy in, at all, to this highly engineered "television moment," is playing into the hands of the very non-entity corporate beastie and all its ills, that wicked thing with which you seem to not want to play any part or support in any way. I find that very ironic


The only way to get through a dark tunnel is to continue forward until you come out on the other side, as Kurosawa makes so vividly clear in his best film, "Dreams."

I do not listen to popera, give me Gorguts any day of the week instead. And I'm such a snob ("the human species?! Pfeh! Gimme a break! You gotta be kidding!") I don't have a unicorn in the race, so, it's all just silliness to me.

Corporations will do their thing and rapidly unravel themselves in the process, anything they do without impedance will just all the more rapidly speed them on their way.  not worth wasting a thought on.


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## Copperears (Nov 10, 2013)

Vesuvius said:


> Haha, that's hilarious as I do landscaping and lawn care. The irony.


Well I'll be happy to chat with you here about Hindemith, but the moment you start talking about Zoysia and weed killer, pardon me if I go into an immediate standing coma in response. ut:


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## apricissimus (May 15, 2013)

moody said:


> You miss the point,the frequent plane passenger is an expert at being a passenger.


Listening and understanding music was an essential part of Klemperer's skill set too. And to be able to do his work, he needed to be an especially acute listener. The skills an audience brings to bear on a piece of music is a subset of the skills a conductor or other professional musician has. And the conductor has many other skills besides.


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## agglerithm (Dec 7, 2013)

In a different internet forum we were discussing the relative strengths of popular vs. classical music. One poster said he was going to give us all a "history lesson" and proclaimed that all classical music was written as background music for parties. He added that the party-goers were probably annoyed at having to listen to it. 

In reply, I told him I was completely unaware of this "fact" and asked for some sort of citation supporting his claims. That citation was never provided, of course. In the meantime, I mentioned the fact that it was likely that what he considered the best popular music of all time has at one time or another been used as background music at a party.


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

agglerithm said:


> In a different internet forum we were discussing the relative strengths of popular vs. classical music. One poster said he was going to give us all a "history lesson" and proclaimed that all classical music was written as background music for parties. He added that the party-goers were probably annoyed at having to listen to it.
> 
> In reply, I told him I was completely unaware of this "fact" and asked for some sort of citation supporting his claims. That citation was never provided, of course. In the meantime, I mentioned the fact that it was likely that what he considered the best popular music of all time has at one time or another been used as background music at a party.


LOL. I won't compile one, but there were plenty of orders for "Tafelmusik" (table music, i.e. background music for the dining hall / room) for those composers of yore who were essentially part of the household staff. "incidental music," that is. Too, the nature of any piece called a Divertimento identifies itself as less than serious art music to sit and contemplate.


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## agglerithm (Dec 7, 2013)

Sure...in fact, I can think of an example of music written specifically to put someone to sleep (the Goldberg Variations).


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

agglerithm said:


> Sure...in fact, I can think of an example of music written specifically to put someone to sleep (the Goldberg Variations).


Well, not exactly. According to the usual story, the Count commissioned the variations so that his musician, Goldberg, could play them to help him pass the hours when he couldn't sleep -- not as a soporific. But in fact, it's likely that the whole story is myth anyway.


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## DrKilroy (Sep 29, 2012)

agglerithm said:


> an example of music written specifically to put someone to sleep (the Goldberg Variations).


This is another myth, I believe.



PetrB said:


> LOL. I won't compile one, but there were plenty of orders for "Tafelmusik" (tsble music, i.e. background music for the dining hall / room) for those composers of yore who were essentially part of the household staff. "incidental music," that is. Too, the nature of any piece called a Divertimento identifies itself as less than serious art music to sit and contemplate.


Sure, but this trend practically died out with the "salon" composers at the end of the Romantic era. It is hilarious that someone considered The Rite of Spring or Stockhausen appropriate for background music for a party. 

Warning - my strange thoughts below!

When I listen to Kchachaturian's Sabre Dance, I always imagine a reception at the Buckingham Palace with the Queen. The wild pig served as the main course suddenly comes alive and starts to run away. The Queen and Prince Philip are terrified. A man with a red bandana on his head (named Joe) runs after the pig with a big axe, destroying all of the furniture. You have to try imagining it, too.



Best regards, Dr


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

The notion that instrumental / absolute "music tells a story" is endemic, and nearly always taken literally vs. the analogy it is meant to be.

The notion that composers directly "express their feelings," and that those emotions are tied in to whatever circumstance was most immediately proximate in time to the time they wrote a particular piece is also 'popular,' and nearly impossible to prove, if not "just not right"


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## SimonNZ (Jul 12, 2012)

Copperears said:


> The only way to get through a dark tunnel is to continue forward until you come out on the other side, as Kurosawa makes so vividly clear in *his best film, "Dreams."
> *


Yikes! I think I disagree more with that than most other things on this thread! But each to their own, of course...


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## ejsledge (Dec 6, 2013)

Here's a misconception about the muted string instrument (violin, viola, cello, bass - although I've never seen a bass mute and the viola has a muted sound to begin with...). What top-ranked classical composers of the late 18th century, i.e., Haydn, Mozart and Beethoven - used the muted string sound. You would think all three - but it was only Mozart - in symphony and string quartets. Neither Haydn nor Beethoven ever used the muted string sound.


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## dgee (Sep 26, 2013)

Dunno bud - there's definitely muted strings in the second movement of the Beethoven Violin Concerto.


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## HaydnBearstheClock (Jul 6, 2013)

ejsledge said:


> Here's a misconception about the muted string instrument (violin, viola, cello, bass - although I've never seen a bass mute and the viola has a muted sound to begin with...). What top-ranked classical composers of the late 18th century, i.e., Haydn, Mozart and Beethoven - used the muted string sound. You would think all three - but it was only Mozart - in symphony and string quartets. Neither Haydn nor Beethoven ever used the muted string sound.


I'm pretty sure that a lot of Haydn quartets use that sound, too.


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## senza sordino (Oct 20, 2013)

As I mentioned in the current listening thread, and I thought I'd repeat it here, because it's relevant here also.

That jazz music invented syncopation. You can find it all the time in classical music, syncopation has been around for a long time. I played Waltz of the Snowflakes from the Nutcracker Friday night, at the beginning we play a series of half notes in three quarter time.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Yogi Berra on syncopation: "That's when the note that you should hear now happens either before or after you hear it. In Jazz, you don't hear notes when they happen because that would be some other type of music. Other types of music can be Jazz, but only if they're the same as something different from those other kinds."


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## arpeggio (Oct 4, 2012)

*Klemperer*



apricissimus said:


> Listening and understanding music was an essential part of Klemperer's skill set too. And to be able to do his work, he needed to be an especially acute listener. The skills an audience brings to bear on a piece of music is a subset of the skills a conductor or other professional musician has. And the conductor has many other skills besides.


I will the first to admit that I am a weak writer. 'apricissimus' did an excellant job of clarifying my initial post about Klemperer. He did a much better job than I did in my intial post. :tiphat:


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

apricissimus said:


> Listening and understanding music was an essential part of Klemperer's skill set too. And to be able to do his work, he needed to be an especially acute listener. The skills an audience brings to bear on a piece of music is a subset of the skills a conductor or other professional musician has. And the conductor has many other skills besides.


I don't understand what point you're trying to put over.


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## apricissimus (May 15, 2013)

moody said:


> I don't understand what point you're trying to put over.


That's okay. :tiphat:


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## brianvds (May 1, 2013)

ejsledge said:


> Here's a misconception about the muted string instrument (violin, viola, cello, bass - although I've never seen a bass mute and the viola has a muted sound to begin with...). What top-ranked classical composers of the late 18th century, i.e., Haydn, Mozart and Beethoven - used the muted string sound. You would think all three - but it was only Mozart - in symphony and string quartets. Neither Haydn nor Beethoven ever used the muted string sound.


I wouldn't know. At least on recordings, I cannot really clearly hear any difference between muted strings and string just playing softly; if they didn't tell me Mozart used muted strings in the Jupiter symphony, I would never have known about it.


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## ejsledge (Dec 6, 2013)

Tapkaara said:


> Hahaha...is that cover FOR REAL???
> 
> Carmina Burana is relaxing classical music that always helps me smooth out my day. It's so pretty and relaxing.


Try relaxing to the final dance in the Rite of Spring! If you can do that - you might be stone deaf !


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## ejsledge (Dec 6, 2013)

Yes, in the slow movement only.


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## ejsledge (Dec 6, 2013)

The strings are muted in the slow movement of the Jupiter Symphony. Gives that far away sound...


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## ejsledge (Dec 6, 2013)

Huh? I'll check that out. Could be, come to think of it. But there are no muted strings in any of the string quartets or symphonies.


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## ejsledge (Dec 6, 2013)

I don't know of any Haydn quartets - do you know any specifically?


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## ejsledge (Dec 6, 2013)

Piwikiwi said:


> I got your point but my apologies if I didn't make that clear. It just seems that you are very vocal that you don't need any understanding of music to appreciate it.


That's true. You don't need any "understanding", which might be: knowledge of music theory, medodic memory, pitch discrimination. All you need is the brain, which makes sense of sound that it encounters.


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## ejsledge (Dec 6, 2013)

Hey, you're right ! I just checked the score - muted in the middle (slow) movement. I never played that, so I might have remembered that particular spot for muted strings.


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## ejsledge (Dec 6, 2013)

ejsledge said:


> Some classical music is (very) repetitive. Stravinsky said the Antonio Vivaldi wrote the same concerto grosso 1000 times. After listening or playing it - it rings true to an extent. JS Back certainly wrote no repetitive music, unless you consider his ingenious sequences repetitive. Once at a concert, I asked someone what they thought about an early Mozart Symphony on the program - and they said it was too "predictable" or something like that. I'm sure Mozart would roll over in his grave if he suspected that anyone would view his music like that! All the great composers strive mightily to avoid being "predictable" - but after 2 or 3 hundred years of listening to some of the great masterpieces - you do ask yourself on occasion - "could this have been done differently??"


I'll answer my own question here: the other day I happened to hear (one of three) Beethoven's Leonore Overtures - Beethoven wrote three versions of this: Leonore #1, #2 and #3. Essentially the same piece with the same musical material, but three versions. Now, that goes to show that: yes it could have been done differently and was done differently in this case. Leonore #3 is the most well-known and most played one - but is it the "best" one? Maybe the good doctor (B) answered that by composing the three versions, or maybe he did not...which is it?


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

ejsledge said:


> Leonore #3 is the most well-known and most played one - but is it the "best" one? Maybe the good doctor (B) answered that by composing the three versions, or maybe he did not...which is it?


Short history: Beethoven wrote Leonore #2 for the original 1805 version of his opera "Leonore." He the revised the opera and wrote Leonore #3 for the 1806 performances of the new version. Leonore #1 was the last of the three, written in 1808 for a planned revival of the opera which didn't take place.

The problem seems to have been to balance the overture with the opera. He wrote a totally new overture on a smaller scale for the 1814 revival of the opera, further revised and now renamed "Fidelio." Today the Leonore #3 is often played prior to the final act and recapitulates its action in advance, although that wasn't Beethoven's idea.

For my money, the Leonore #3 is the finest concert overture ever written. But then the Fidelio Overture ain't chopped liver.


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