# Chopin's Nocturnes



## science (Oct 14, 2010)

Chopin's Nocturnes have been some of the most beloved and popular works in the piano's repertoire. At the moment, they are on the 11th tier of the the Talk Classical community's favorite and most highly recommended works.

Wikipedia's article about them has a little information--just enough to serve as a listening guide. The best source for recording recommendations is probably Trout's blog post on this work:



> Condensed Listing:
> 1.	Rubinstein	(1965)
> 2.	Moravec	(1966)
> 3.	Arrau	(1978)
> ...


Here is another TC thread exclusively dedicated to recommending recordings of the Nocturnes.

*Anyway, the main questions are: Do you like these works? What do you like about them? Do you have any reservations about them?*

And of course, what are your favorite recordings?


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## brianvds (May 1, 2013)

I used to love them, but haven't listened to them in ages. It appears they did not withstand repeated listening very well. Then again, maybe it's time I gave them another go and see if they still do something for me.


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## Larkenfield (Jun 5, 2017)

_Do you like these works? What do you like about them? Do you have any reservations about them?_

Of course. I consider them quintessentially Chopin like his Preludes and Etudes in their exquisite refinement, poetry, imagination, magic, and harmonic genius. My only reservations are when they are played with insufficient intensity or over-sentimentalized.


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

Arrau and Moravec are my go-to recordings. What I don't like are versions that deny the wealth of nocturnal environments.


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## flamencosketches (Jan 4, 2019)

I'm listening to them right now, Rubinstein. I'm a big fan but it has to be the right kind of night. 

Who else should I check out on these? Some other Chopin players I'm a fan of are Argerich and Pollini, but I haven't heard either of them play the nocturnes.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

No I don’t like them at all, I think they’re very hard to get off the page. You can see what goes on with them by the remark above - I like them at night, that sort of thing. They can become mood music, music to let wash over you. They’re often treated in a way which makes them a bit sickeningly sweet too. 

My feeling is that what’s neeeded is someone who’ll rethink them from scratch to find the uniqueness of each - a musician who can use colours and attacks to make some variety. I know that in the later nocturnes at least, the relation between the voices becomes more interesting, so it needs someone who’ll not treat it as a singing top line and secondary left hand accompaniment. And I’d be interested to see what exploring the sort of tunings that Chopin was using will do to the music, that could make all the difference. As always a proper Chopin piano is a good idea. 

Of the few I care to hear, I’ll mention op 27/1 because in some performances there seems a sort of disturbing emotional/psychological quality which I find fascinating. And also op 62/1, which has a curious counterpoint.


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## Brahmsianhorn (Feb 17, 2017)

Rubinstein's final set is still my favorite for the full 19 - so natural and unforced - but everyone should at least once hear these individual recordings:


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## science (Oct 14, 2010)

Some of the comments already made, and some I've seen elsewhere, might seem dismissive to many people. Is the sweetness of these works, or their short length, or (dare we admit) their popularity holding them back in some of our esteems?


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Brahmsianhorn said:


> Rubinstein's final set is still my favorite for the full 19 - so natural and unforced - but everyone should at least once hear these individual recordings:


Transcendental. I wanted to stop breathing. The Friedman recording has always been a touchstone of great pianism for me - the independence of the inner voices must be heard to be believed - but this is my first encounter with the Solomon. The Op. 27 No. 2 is one of the most familiar of the Nocturnes and I thought I'd heard enough of it, but the hypnotic stillness with which Solomon endows it is so potent that it felt absolutely fresh to me.

Where's that guy who was complaining about the piano being too percussive and not sustaining notes, or something?


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## Mifek (Jul 28, 2018)

science said:


> Do you like these works?


I love them.



science said:


> What do you like about them?


Firstly, they strongly appeal to my feelings. 
Secondly, they do this in an unobtrusive way (if played the way I like it).
Thirdly, every time I listen to them I discover something new.



science said:


> Do you have any reservations about them?


Many (or I would even say *most*) interpretations I've heard seem boring to me.*
Also, as already mentioned by Mandryka, one needs to be in a very specific mood (and in a proper environment) to fully appreciate their beauty.

* - this doesn't apply to op. 9 no. 2, the most "popular" nocturne that is frequently over-sentimentalized, yet this somehow doesn't make it boring (at least not to my ears).



science said:


> And of course, what are your favorite recordings?


Definitely Arrau, followed by Rubinstein (1965).


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## Pat Fairlea (Dec 9, 2015)

I love Chopin's Nocturnes and hear something new in them almost every time I listen.

Performances? Engerer for melodic charm, Arrau for seeking out the depths, Pollini for a delicate balance between the two.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Just looking at Woodduck's reaction to those youtube performances, I wonder if this music isn't a victim of the recording industry -- where there's a tendency to have one or two CDs full of them. The music really is not a cycle at all, and listening to 60 minutes worth at once may not be the best way to enjoy them. They're best done in small doses.


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## Larkenfield (Jun 5, 2017)

science said:


> Some of the comments already made, and some I've seen elsewhere might seem dismissive to many people. Is the sweetness of these works, or their short length, or (dare we admit) their popularity holding them back in some of our esteems?


Those who truly love and understand this great composer do not nickel and dime him to death with petty criticism. They don't nitpick him to death and say, "well, if only his piano was tuned differently," "if only he could write a fugue like Bach," "if only he could do this," "if only he could do that" I might like him… and they completely miss out on his exquisite poetry, his ability to tell a story, his incredible variety of moods, the masculine virility of his polonaise, the variety of moods of his preludes, his melodic and harmonic genius in his nocturnes that even Mozart might have admired. If they did, they'd mention it and they rarely if ever do, so it must be escaping them and there's a noticeable blind spot that continues to exist.

, I believe he's simply too enigmatic for everyone to appreciate, too refined, too exquisitely subtle for some listeners to grasp, and yet they keep being drawn back to him over and over again. Nevertheless, it really doesn't matter. Chopin is already in the Hall of Fame for composers and virtuosos in his safe comfortable suite somewhere on Olympus and he's not about to be dislodged by the complainers who think they understand him.

Chopin never wrote every Nocturne to be heard back to back, but there still have been some superb collections, and here is one of my favorites:


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## Dimace (Oct 19, 2018)

*I adore them! *

Brigitte (above), Jan (Smeterlin) and Claudio (Arrau) have played to my favorite recordings. Friedman also is super human. I suggest also Garrick (Ohlsson) who has the most detailed approach to these monumental works.


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

Love them. I have the Ashkenazy double CD, which apparently does not have a good reputation, but I like it.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Dimace said:


> *I adore them! *
> 
> Brigitte (above), Jan (Smeterlin) and Claudio (Arrau) have played to my favorite recordings. Friedman also is super human. I suggest also Garrick (Ohlsson) who has the most detailed approach to these monumental works.


I had three recordings of the complete Nocturnes: the Moravec, the Rubinstein, and the Ohlsson. All superb. But when I decided to reduce my CD collection to manageable proportions and culled a great many duplications of repertoire, I decided that it was Ohlsson's Nocturnes I had to keep. My impression over the years has been that he is a Chopinist second to none.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Woodduck said:


> I had three recordings of the complete Nocturnes: the Moravec, the Rubinstein, and the Ohlsson. All superb. But when I decided to reduce my CD collection to manageable proportions and culled a great many duplications of repertoire, I decided that it was Ohlsson's Nocturnes I had to keep. My impression over the years has been that he is a Chopinist second to none.


I've never heard Ohlsson. One I think is worth hearing is Maria Tipos.


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## DeepR (Apr 13, 2012)

Yes, I like them. Almost as much as my favorite Preludes, Etudes and Ballades.

Rubinstein, not among my favorite pianists, but for these pieces he's perfect.
My favorites are probably 27/1, 48/1, 62/1 and 72/1. 
Just listened to 62/1, my god, that last part is too beautiful......
Lisitsa, while not a fan, she does a very fine 48/1.





Let's not forget that other composers have made some great piano nocturnes as well. Some favorites are Stanchinsky, Debussy, Scriabin (left hand), Respighi, Liszt (Liebestraum). 
The obscure Stanchinsky:


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## Bwv 1080 (Dec 31, 2018)

There is no better recording than Moravec's

and the period instrument recording with Bart van Oort is also good


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Bwv 1080 said:


> There is no better recording than Moravec's


In terms of sound engineering and probably technique too this is quite plausible for his second complete nocturnes.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Mandryka said:


> Just looking at Woodduck's reaction to those youtube performances, I wonder if this music isn't a victim of the recording industry -- where there's a tendency to have one or two CDs full of them. The music really is not a cycle at all, and listening to 60 minutes worth at once may not be the best way to enjoy them. They're best done in small doses.


I find this a problem with a lot of music. Recordings are unlike concerts: when you put on a CD of music you like, you're given an anthology of the composer's works in that form, and you listen with diminishing returns. Chopin and other Romantic composers cultivated a jeweler's art, and what you want is a gem set against a field of black velvet, not a caseful of bling.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Woodduck said:


> I find this a problem with a lot of music. Recordings are unlike concerts: when you put on a CD of music you like, you're given an anthology of the composer's works in that form, and you listen with diminishing returns. Chopin and other Romantic composers cultivated a jeweler's art, and what you want is a gem set against a field of black velvet, not a caseful of bling.


Yes. This is a problem in general I think in life. I'm very interested in garden design and I've often found myself advising people. What they often want is big, in your face, bright flowers now! They're rarely interested in cultivaing little jewels which they may discover and relish on a walk through their private landscape.


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## DeepR (Apr 13, 2012)

DeepR said:


> Just listened to 62/1, my god, that last part is too beautiful......


Horowitz' piano and tone make it best, to me. He's not perfect, but Horowitz always makes something unique out of it.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

DeepR said:


> Horowitz' piano and tone make it best, to me. He's not perfect, but Horowitz always makes something unique out of it.


I once heard a recording of him playing op 55/1 -- I've got it here, a 1968 TV concert -- which I thought was exceptional


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## BrahmsWasAGreatMelodist (Jan 13, 2019)

I want to like them a lot more than I do right now. Most of them are probably among my least favorite Chopin pieces (which are still not bad). At first I thought it had to do with compositions themselves, but now I realize it's probably just because I've heard too many pianists completely butcher them in every way imaginable.

I really should give them a fresh start. Thanks for the suggested recordings everyone.


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## science (Oct 14, 2010)

Mandryka said:


> Yes. This is a problem in general I think in life. I'm very interested in garden design and I've often found myself advising people. What they often want is big, in your face, bright flowers now! They're rarely interested in cultivaing little jewels which they may discover and relish on a walk through their private landscape.


Do you think this is related to why you don't like these works?


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

science said:


> Do you think this is related to why you don't like these works?


No, I don't think so. I'm not very keen on music which functions through melody, where the main interest is from melody. The way they're often played that's how they come across - just a nice and easy tune. I don't think they're all like that - some can be given a sort of drama, and some even are interesting polyphonically and harmonically, and my suspicion is that the right sort of pianist on the right sort of instrument, a proper Chopin piano, would be able to bring out more of this in the music, revealing them to be more "grown up" than they first appear. So I live in hope. One performer who gives me hope, a performer who finds a great delicacy, subtlety in the music, who makes the music as elusive as a poem by Mallarmé, is Dang Thai Son, here









His piano is so even and polished - I wonder if it was over restored.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Anyone here heard John Khouri's recording, is it interesting, revealing?

View attachment 111726


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## David Pinnegar (Jan 16, 2019)

It's potentially worth looking also at the Adolfo Barabino recordings of Chopin's Nocturnes. The Amazon listing gives a 5 Star review and if anyone can be inhabited by the ghost of Chopin it's he.

Best wishes

David Pinnegar


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## Dimace (Oct 19, 2018)

Woodduck said:


> I had three recordings of the complete Nocturnes: the Moravec, the Rubinstein, and the Ohlsson. All superb. But when I decided to reduce my CD collection to manageable proportions and culled a great many duplications of repertoire, I decided that it was Ohlsson's Nocturnes I had to keep. *My impression over the years has been that he is a Chopinist second to none.*


You are very close to the truth, my dearest! Ohlsson is nowadays the Buda of Chopin. If I want to perform something I cheat from him. He is also a GREAT teacher. (Take a look at his master classes. They are amazing.)


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

He's done an interesting thing, Ohlsson, he's recorded exactly the same music on a modern piano and a real Chopin piano. Here's some more info, I've only listened to one thing on the two recordings, op 62/1

http://en.chopin.nifc.pl/institute/events/archives/date/1811/id/4823


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## Larkenfield (Jun 5, 2017)

Excellent! Well said, especially of Chopin's influence on Wagner through his son-in-law Liszt, not nearly mentioned enough for who believe that Wagner was only a critic:






Garrick on an amazing, beautiful, ET (equal temperament) tuned modern Steinway without the need to demand eccentricities in the way of an antiquated instrument or an unequal tuning for the music to work...The sound is gorgeous and his playing extraordinary:






I feel it's very true that Chopin speaks directly to the heart, and if one isn't able get him on that level without complicating everything with all kinds of mischaracterizations and distortions-that direct, basic level of understanding-then they probably never will. Some have struggled with this for years and have apparently made no headway, even complaining about the importance of melody in his works, what he's quite often most known for and appreciated in his works around the world and in the history of music. That's like trying to appreciate him through the wrong end of a telescope.


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## Dimace (Oct 19, 2018)

This wonderful essence of mysterious and unknown, exotic flowers combined with the greatness of the absolute chopinean sound, blows my mind and drives me to the true heaven. This video should be forbidden! Who will dare, after this phenomenal performance to play this Scherzo?


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## Larkenfield (Jun 5, 2017)

Mandryka said:


> Anyone here heard John Khouri's recording, is it interesting, revealing?
> 
> View attachment 111726


John Khouri as an interpreter is playing on a wretched instrument that Chopin probably wouldn't have been inspired to play in 20 lifetimes. Chopin was a progressive and interested in the development of the piano in terms of its beauty and sonority-and an instrument such as this has no integrity of sonority in and of itself, especially in the clanging metallic bass tones and the awful restricted treble register that sounds more plucked than struck. Or hasn't anyone noticed?

Broadwood piano of 1832 or not, there are not enough words in the thesaurus to describe its current dilapidated condition, its ugly unrefined, unaesthetic, clangorous, primitive sound as if Chopin might have possibly sounded this way in his lifetime. On a new Broadwood - yes. But this one is almost 200 years old and it shows.

Evidently, Mr. Khouri is oblivious or immune to the intolerably banging, raucous cacophony-how he stands or tolerates it I have no idea. I have yet to hear Chopin played on an historic instrument that I could imagine he might have wanted to play on himself, though there's probably one out there somewhere that's at least halfway decent.

Some look to the past to get into the spirit of playing Chopin or imagine what he might have sounded like, but I believe he would have looked to the future and been thrilled by the beauty and sonority of the modern grand. He might have also been capable of having a _larger_ sonority of sound if he'd wanted one, and just imagine all the subtleties and shadings he could have created with the fully perfected _una corda_ pedal. That would be mind-boggling rather than mind-numbing.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Larkenfield said:


> John Khouri is a very fine interpreter playing on an unsonorous instrument that Chopin probably wouldn't have been inspired to play in 20 lifetimes. Chopin was a progressive and interested in the development of the piano in terms of its beauty and sonority-and an instrument such as this has no integrity of sonority in and of itself, especially in the clanging metallic bass tones and the awful, restricted treble register that sounds more plucked than struck. Or hasn't anyone noticed what clearly seems to be obvious?
> 
> Broadwood piano of 1832 or not, there are not enough words in the thesaurus to describe its current dilapidated condition, its ugly unrefined, unaesthetic, clangorous, primitive sound as if Chopin might have authentically sounded this way in his lifetime. On a new Broadway - yes. But this one is almost 200 years old and it shows.
> 
> Evidently, the sincerely fine pianist Mr. Khouri is oblivious or immune to the raucous cacophony. I have yet to hear Chopin played on an historic instrument that I could imagine he might have wanted to play on himself, though there's probably one out there somewhere that's at least halfway decent. Some look to the past to get into the spirit of playing Chopin or imagine what he might have sounded like, but I believe he would have looked to the future and been thrilled by the beauty and sonority of the modern grand piano. He might have also been capable of having a _larger_ sonority of sound if he'd wanted one, and just imagine all that he could have done with a fully perfected una corda pedal.


This is a dreadful, twangy piano, its treble sounds like steel on glass, and Khouri's excessive pedaling and banging are insensitive and painful. I've never before heard this Ballade sound like an assault - whether on pianos, music, or nerves, I'm not sure. Probably all three. HIP gone berserk.


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## Dimace (Oct 19, 2018)

I found Mr. Khouri's approach interesting and somehow romantic. I would like to had this recording in my collection but I wouldn't like to listen it. The reason: When we have P or less, the sound is ok. From fP and above the sound is terrible, because of the instrument limitations. John is trying very hard, to say the truth with this work. If I was in his position, (heavier hands) the result should be something between atrocity and monstrosity. I think we have something here is better to be avoided. Never the less I will buy this one. Thanks a lot, both of you, dear friends!


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## Ras (Oct 6, 2017)

*"I started out on Burgundy but soon hit the harder stuff!"*

Chopin's "Nocturnes" was some of the first classical music I got into - and he was certainly the first romantic composer I got into. He and Brahms are the only romantic composers that make my list of all time favorite composers.

Chopin's "Nocturnes" have a strong emotional impact on me - they fill me with a profound feeling that beauty exists and that that beauty is worth taking seriously.

The first recording I got was *Claudio Arrau's Phillips/Decca* on a 2 cd-set which also included the four (underrated!) Chopin Impromptus. I still count Arrau among my favorite recordings. But *Daniel Barenboim's DG* recording have joined him and also *Ivan Moravec(1965 Elektra/Nonesuch)* and *A. Rubinstein's 1960's RCA recording.*

Rubinstein is actually quite "sober" - where Barenboim gets romantic emotion out of everything - and listening to Moravec is like falling in love with a young beautiful woman wearing silken underwear…

I hope Pietro De Maria will record the Nocturnes, because his (new to me) album with Chopin's Impromptus and Ballades is so good.


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## Gallus (Feb 8, 2018)

Brahmsianhorn said:


> Rubinstein's final set is still my favorite for the full 19 - so natural and unforced - but everyone should at least once hear these individual recordings:


I had to listen to the videos in this post since they are my two favourite nocturnes and was going to mention them before I opened this thread. 55/2 is rich and bittersweet like a piece of dark chocolate, that meandering melody yearning for transcendence in the quiet knowledge that it all might be futile; 27/2 feels to me like a dream when one knows one is awake, and seducing a beautiful woman in it with all the storm and stress involved, but enveloped in the dream. Chopin's harmonies in that piece are utterly, utterly extraordinary. But yeah, lovely interpretations. Friedman's rubato is quite something, they don't play 'em like that anymore...


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Dimace said:


> I found Mr. Khouri's approach interesting and somehow romantic. I would like to had this recording in my collection but I wouldn't like to listen it. The reason: When we have P or less, the sound is ok. From fP and above the sound is terrible, because of the instrument limitations. John is trying very hard, to say the truth with this work. If I was in his position, (heavier hands) the result should be something between atrocity and monstrosity. I think we have something here is better to be avoided. Never the less I will buy this one. Thanks a lot, both of you, dear friends!


Khouri is absolutely unforgettable at the start of the first scherzo, I guarantee you you will never want to hear any other recording of the first scherzo after you've heard it. The scherzo recording is a good example to prove how wrong it is to play Chopin on modern pianos, or indeed on over-restored fortepianos. Khouri's piano has been well restored I think.

He must be using a different piano for the ballade (which I haven't heard -- the music is not part of my world, if you know what I mean), because Woodduck's comments don't line up with what I'm hearing at all, neither do yours.

I want very much to hear what he does with the nocturnes, even though the music hasn't ever much caught my imagination so far, apart from one or two. The problem is the elevated price he's asking for the recording, $1.20 for a nocturne on poor mp3 -- I really am not interested in hearing him or anyone else play John Field.


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## science (Oct 14, 2010)

Another conversational direction: which of Chopin's nocturnes are your favorites? (Bonus: includes quantification, albeit unscientific.)


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Can I ask the Chopinists to download his op 62/1 please? I did so just now and I think he has things to say. It's only $1 -- I'll buy it off you if you don't like it

for 1c


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## David Pinnegar (Jan 16, 2019)

Woodduck said:


> This is a dreadful, twangy piano, its treble sounds like steel on glass, and Khouri's excessive pedaling and banging are insensitive and painful. I've never before heard this Ballade sound like an assault - whether on pianos, music, or nerves, I'm not sure. Probably all three. HIP gone berserk.


Yes - this is quite the most horrible recording I've heard. I'm very much an advocate of attempting to find the origin, through instruments and through tuning, but that's no longer an instrument in a playing state.

There's something not right about the treble octave strings. Either dampers aren't properly adjusted or the bridge has lost connecting attachment to the soundboard. This is a common problem with original instruments and must be corrected before recordings are made.

Recently I've had the privilege of recording an 1802 Stodart instrument tuned to meantone as an experiment, an 1859 Broadwood Iron Concert Grand and this weekend may well be recording an 1819 Broadwood of the same model as Beethoven's. And that sound is not really suitable for Chopin. There may be a possibility of recording an 1854 Emerich Betsy experimentally tuned to a temperament someone's asked me to try for Chopin. The latter instrument however has leather hammers and is one of the last of fortepianos, and again the sound isn't the Chopin sound.

The instrument must contribute to the spirit of the music, not the music having to survive the instrument.

Best wishes

David Pinnegar


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

David Pinnegar said:


> Yes - this is quite the most horrible recording I've heard. I'm very much an advocate of attempting to find the origin, through instruments and through tuning, but that's no longer an instrument in a playing state.
> 
> There's something not right about the treble octave strings. Either dampers aren't properly adjusted or the bridge has lost connecting attachment to the soundboard. This is a common problem with original instruments and must be corrected before recordings are made.
> 
> ...


Don't just leave it like that! Please say more about what the spirit of the music is, as it is I don't know whether what you're saying is perceptive or not.


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## science (Oct 14, 2010)

Mandryka said:


> I don't know whether what you're saying is perceptive or not.


If you ever have this problem with one of my posts, please be assured that what I'm saying does not aspire to rise to your standard of perceptiveness.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

science said:


> If you ever have this problem with one of my posts, please be assured that what I'm saying does not aspire to rise to your standard of perceptiveness.


That's a bit snide isn't it? I mean, the guy says something, I don't know how to tell whether it's true or not, what am I supposed to do?


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## science (Oct 14, 2010)

Mandryka said:


> That's a bit snide isn't it? I mean, the guy says something, I don't know how to tell whether it's true or not, what am I supposed to do?


Snide? I don't understand.

The point is, I know a lot less about music than David Pinnegar. If he's not good enough, I'm not either!


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

science said:


> Snide? I don't understand.
> 
> The point is, I know a lot less about music than David Pinnegar. If he's not good enough, I'm not either!


I guess I'm just asking him to share his thoughts a bit more, an idea like « spirit of the music » or whatever it was he said, is something which demands clarification in my opinion. I mean, it doesn't wear its meaning on its sleeve, I'd say.


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## science (Oct 14, 2010)

Mandryka said:


> I guess I'm just asking him to share his thoughts a bit more, an idea like « spirit of the music » or whatever it was he said, is something which demands clarification in my opinion. I mean, it doesn't wear its meaning on its sleeve, I'd say.


You're saying something completely different now.

But anyway, we're all judging each other all the time, aren't we? I guess we might as well be honest about it.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

science said:


> You're saying something completely different now.


No i don't think so, but maybe I expressed myself badly, I don't know - the important thing for me is to understand what was actually being meant, being said. It may be perceptive about the music, or it may just be an expression of preferences and prejudices.

There is something difficult, _heavy_, about the fact that the discussion is in writing and public and not in the moment. I don't see that's it's avoidable.


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## Larkenfield (Jun 5, 2017)

I enjoyed Mr Khouri’s Chopin interpretation otherwise.


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## DeepR (Apr 13, 2012)

Larkenfield said:


>


My goodness, I once had an electronic keyboard with a "honky tonk" piano sound that sounded exactly like this. That's just awful.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Larkenfield said:


> I enjoyed Mr Khouri's Chopin interpretation otherwise.


You see, I don't know the ballade, but in the op 62/1 which enthused me, I don't think that you can separate the instrument from the interpretation. The instrument, with all its asperities, both inspires the interpretation and indeed is probably necessary for it. It's as if playing Chopin on a piano like that is an experiment . . .


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## David Pinnegar (Jan 16, 2019)

Nocturne Op9 No1 with pedalling as originally written - 





Here's what Chopin might sound like on an 1819 Broadwood possibly with too lightweight guage strings in the treble to have reduced tension on the instrument




and it's not the sort of sound suitable for Chopin. Just because an instrument is old doesn't mean that it's what the composer heard or intended to be heard.

Best wishes

David Pinnegar


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## Larkenfield (Jun 5, 2017)

David Pinnegar said:


> Nocturne Op9 No1 with pedalling as originally written -
> 
> 
> 
> ...


David, I enjoyed hearing the first Broadwood with its fine quality of sound and rather nice sense of intimacy. I enjoyed the subtle pedaling too. But I would indeed suspect that Chopin would not have found the sound of Broadwood #2 acceptable, though I suspect that it sounded far better in its day. Neither one, though, I think Chopin would prefer over his beloved Pleyel with its more diaphanous and harplike sound. Must have been magical to hear in its day with the master playing it like a magician. In any event, thanks for sharing these examples. I do feel that they capture something of Chopin's time and era when the piano was coming into its own and I can appreciate why some are so fascinated by these vintage pianos. It's my favorite solo instrument. Best wishes. -Lark


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## David Pinnegar (Jan 16, 2019)

Larkenfield said:


> David, I enjoyed hearing the first Broadwood with its fine quality of sound and rather nice sense of intimacy.


If it's the Nocturne Op 9 No 1 it's on an 1885 Bechstein.

It's been a great privilege that this pianist has been staying with us for two weeks in the last month and together we've been on a journey of tuning and instrument exploration. My knowledge of music is limited but the pianist is an amazing teacher of musicianship.

He referred to the second recording on the 1819 Broadwood as an abomination of Chopin sound. I think it's an interesting sound but the treble is strung more like a harpsichord and a tension analysis calculated by pitch vs length of string vs gauge of wire revealed the strings to be 10kg each less than other contemporary Broadwoods. As the same model as Beethoven's this model is well studied and documented and I've got to consider restringing half the instrument and finding the funds to do so, and considering whether the instrument can withstand the extra tension.

In the course of the coming week I'll be putting on recordings of Beethoven's Tempest on an 1802 Stodart (already on YouTube) tuned to Meantone, the whole Tempest on this 1819 instrument, and by comparison the first movement and some Chopin on an 1859 Broadwood Iron Concert Grand and the Tempest and a sample of Chopin on an 1854 Emerich Betsy http://emerichbetsy.com Fortepiano, one of the last with leather hammers. The latter tonally is wonderful for Beethoven, Schubert and Brahms but not for Chopin, and we tested a suggested temperament for Chopin which whether the temperament, my tuning or the reaction of the instrument in tuning, was less than happy.

The Betsy has been restrung, https://jungleboffin.com/mp4/jill-crossland-unequal-tempered-fortepiano/ having been a concert on the old strings.

Relating to Chopin and in comparison to the sound, I'll post the Chopin examples here but discussion about other aspects of the instruments should be on another thread.

The Tempest on the 1819 was interesting but underwhelming. In contrast, in rehearsal for the Chopin 2nd Sonata which follows the Beethoven here




the resonances of the instrument tuned to Kellner temperament, a variation of Kirnberger with 7 perfect fifths, worked very magically but due to the restricted keyboard the performance was given on the Bechstein. The performer is also a pupil of the local masterclasses https://www.google.com/search?q=adolfo+barabino+masterclass

Best wishes

David Pinnegar


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

David Pinnegar said:


> . . . and it's not the sort of sound suitable for Chopin. Just because an instrument is old doesn't mean that it's what the composer heard or intended to be heard.
> 
> Best wishes
> 
> David Pinnegar


That way of thinking would _a priori_ exclude all the modern pianos.

(re Beethoven, have you heard Tom Beghin's experiments with the Beethoven "Hearing Machine"?


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## David Pinnegar (Jan 16, 2019)

Mandryka said:


> That way of thinking would _a priori_ exclude all the modern pianos.


;-) Yes - other than my friend having demonstrated the Nocturne on the Bechstein, in the spirit of the modern piano although 1885, but using originally marked pedalling and an unequal temperament and hopefully succeeding in conveying the Chopin spirit.

When the playing is really sympathetic to the original and the tuning of the vibrations is arguably near to the spirit of the original then perhaps the modern piano can be coaxed. I understand fully where you're coming from in this comment, however, and aren't at prejudiced against experiment. However, we have some landmarks.

I think here the objection to the 1819 Broadwood as currently strung is that the treble isn't doing justice to Chopin and it's more harpsichordish in stringency. I was fortunate enough to go to the sale of the Finchcocks Richard Burnett collection, https://auctions.dreweatts.com/auction-024/auctionDetails/176, and the sale of the Colt Collection https://www.the-saleroom.com/en-gb/...filter?archiveSearch=True&page=1&pageSize=240, and with this pianist were able to explore all the instruments and of which the Finchcocks instruments were specifically tuned for view.

The Stodart was the nearest thing to the harpsichord in tone and in that respect in 1802 already old fashioned compared to the Broadwoods of the time. The Richard Burnett book "Company of Pianos" is well worth getting together with the accompanying CD. https://www.abebooks.co.uk/book-search/title/company-pianos/author/richard-burnett/ By the time we get to the 1820s in piano tone, with the Clementis and Collards the tone is recognisably more piano-like with somewhat less stringent upper harmonics that give the harpsichord some bite. And here we move more into the Chopin era. Waiting for funding to be restrung and refelted is an 1873 Cottage Grand Broadwood which still has the bichord stringing in the middle register, just as those of 40 years before. My pianist friend insists that this instrument is the Chopin sound and with which I don't disagree.

Last week we were fortunate to be able to visit the Burnett's core collection, http://www.finchcocks.co.uk/collection.html a dozen or so instruments from earliest to an Erard of the 1860s. From this unique collection it's possible to examine closely the sort of instrument that fits the Chopin writing and from experience of which I'm none too keen on the Khouri Broadwood recording. It's not representative of the quality of instrument that should be exemplifying the contemporary sound.

Here's an experiment on an 1854 Viennese fortepiano also not suitable for Chopin but ideal for Beethoven, Brahms and Schubert




The tuning is experimental, details having been sent by a friend, and the instrument incompatible with tuning to a tuning meter calibrated by cents without access to aural checks.

In due course I'll put together the recording of the Nocturne on the 1859 Concert Broadwood tuned in Equal and Unequal temperament (Kirnberger III). On recording the difference isn't greatly apparent but live there is a lot of difference and improvement given tonally and musically by the temperament.

With the heritage of such collections made in the 2nd half of the 20th century, preserved and restored we're able to have specific landmarks and benchmarks with which to measure the success of random instruments one encounters, and to provide the foundations of serious study and direction.

There might be aspects of the out of place instruments for the repertoire that we enjoy, and we can admire the musicianship involved on overcoming their limitations, but they don't necessarily go to the heart of the music. My pianist friend remarked upon my asking him to play the Nocturne on Betsy that he'd do it but it couldn't be a performance, merely a collection of notes. When I hear the expertise of his playing on the Bechstein recording above, putting in place pedalling unknown to most modern performers, and experience of one of his pupils 



his opinion I believe is one who I can safely follow.

Best wishes

David Pinnegar


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## DeepR (Apr 13, 2012)

Millions of World of Warcraft players have heard a part of Chopin's Op. 27 No. 1 without realizing it.
Starts @ 1:02


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## David Pinnegar (Jan 16, 2019)

Nocturne Op72 recorded in equal and unequal temperament






Best wishes

David Pinnegar


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## Larkenfield (Jun 5, 2017)

David Pinnegar said:


> Nocturne Op72 recorded in equal and unequal temperament
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The difference between the two temperaments is remarkable, with the uneven being more consonant and restorative with less frequency "beats" between the intervals. I wish all music could be heard in the unequal, or what I would call the "natural" temperament, but it's simply not practical on the piano in the modern world with the frequent retunings that would be required when playing works in unrelated keys and the avoidance of certain keys with "wolf" tones, except perhaps with a judicious choice of works to be played in certain keys. I think the use of the unequal temperament would require that the pianist be a tuner too, and how many have the interest or the willingness to do that? And one would be constantly dependent on the piano tuner. But the sound of the unequal temperament is really astonishing and such a relief from the compromises of the equal temperament where the purity of the major and minor thirds are just not as satisfying. I believe that all music is basically designed to be played in pure intervals, and the equal temperament scale is certainly not that, though with string instruments it's always perfectly possible and that's their great advantage. This is also a piano that I believe Chopin would have found perfectly acceptable and pleasing. It really has a lovely tone with very rich, somewhat dark overtones. I've been enjoying the examples you've posted.


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## Pat Fairlea (Dec 9, 2015)

David Pinnegar said:


> Nocturne Op72 recorded inr equal and unequal temperament
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thank you David for all of these fascinating examples, and all of you knowledgeable CM posters for your discussion.


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## David Pinnegar (Jan 16, 2019)

Larkenfield said:


> The difference between the two temperaments is remarkable, with the uneven being more consonant and restorative with less frequency "beats" between the intervals. I wish all music could be heard in the unequal, or what I would call the "natural" temperament, but it's simply not practical on the piano in the modern world with the frequent retunings that would be required when playing works in unrelated keys and the avoidance of certain keys with "wolf" tones,


Thanks so much for your observations, and Pat too. But actually this business about retunings is a common myth relating only to Meantone (see the Beethoven Tempest thread with an interesting recording there on the 1802 Stodart). Unequal temperaments were divided into two camps. Ones such as Pythagorean and Meantone which contained a "Wolf" fifth usually between Ab and Eb or sometimes I believe B to F# and others which were known as circulating temperaments in which all keys were equally playable.

Normally I tune to Kellner temperament as a suggested possibility for that for which Bach composed and here to Kirnberger III which also uses 7 perfect fifths but is stronger than Kellner. So this recording 



 in Kirnberger was such an experiment being one step stronger than the Bechstein recording above - 



 which uses Kellner. The secret of these temperaments is that the bass can be harmonically tuned so that many notes of the scale are tied to the 3rd and 4th harmonics of the lower strings, or the 6th and 8th. This results in no beats for many notes giving keys that are calmer, and against which other notes sing.

An example of this, and delightfully Chopin Nocturnes - 




(This was a modern Grotien Steinweg)

I believe that there was in later Victorian times a convenience of robbing our music of such beauty. Keys such as F#, Db, Ab and B required great delicacy in playing, as we here from this pianist. Were some yob to come along and play chopsticks upon a piano so tuned on the prize family entertainment centre in the corner of the living room as was the Victorian status symbol, tuned like this the instrument would be ridiculed and the brand rubbished.

Instead it was convenient for an equal temperament to be adopted and drummed into the factories' tuners - evenly progressing thirds as we go up the scale . . . with the result that the instrument glistens in sound and shimmers . . . and then we say "What an amazing instrument - it must be a XXXXXX" (brand name). So we worshipped the brands as seen emblazoned on the sides of some instruments in concert halls. Yuck. So we were seduced into worshipping the instrument rather than its ability to convey the emotion.

This is why on 6th May 2019 friends are organising a seminar on restoring the emotion to music through temperament and tuning at Hammerwood Park, East Grinstead. Perhaps I'll start a thread about this. But many of these temperaments can be used universally for modern pianos without retuning at all, and significantly enhancing the tonal beauty of the modern instrument.

Sadly the performer here




does not have the finesse of my pianist friend, typical of the modern competition winner, but this is a very long concert length Kawai which before I tuned it was hideously sharp in tonality and has been significantly tamed by the tuning, which is suitable for the whole repertoire from Bach right through to the modern composers.

Here's the same piece played by a masterclass pupil of my friend




on the 1885 Bechstein.

https://jungleboffin.com/mp4/jong-gyung-park-unequal-temperament/ is complete concert one of my first tunings of the Bechstein to Kellner temperament and I've been most privileged by the toleration and friendship of many musicians willing to perform as a test of what then seemed a niche eccentricity. But that concert proved suitability of the unequal temperament soundscape even to the performance of 20th century repertoire. Even Prokofiev and Berg. Debussy particularly revels in the harmonically lush pastures that such tunings provide.

Candidates for all-purpose tunings in all keys include
7th Comma Serkin temperament
6th Comma Meantone - said to be favoured by Mozart although I think his music calls for stronger - might be known as Silbermann
Neidhardt 1724 (I haven't tried any of the above. Tunings take hours and repeated retunings for experiment on instruments aren't good for the tuning plank)
Vallotti - not strong enough spice for me. Uses 6 perfect 5ths.
Kellner which I favour. It's vital not to use stretching of octaves in the middle, tenor and treble three octaves, and tune harmonically below Tenor C. One can tweak Tenor C# a beat or two sharp so as to avoid the very wide C# to treble F being unpleasant.
Kirnberger III as we've experimented with in recordings above in this thread and in the Beethoven Tempest thread.

Both Kellner and Kirnberger use 7 perfect 5ths. And they cause perfect thirds in the home keys to be nearly pure or really pure, so providing multiple points of contact in resonance between the scale and the lower strings. This is part of the secret of long sustaining pedal passages marked by both Chopin and Beethoven, as the tuning removes the clashings.

I'd love to be tuning the Steinway in the Studio of Radio 3. I think the emotional draw of classical music would then start to snowball back an understanding and enthusiasm that's rightly placed.

Best wishes

David Pinnegar


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## Guest (Jan 21, 2019)

The Nocturnes are extremely poetic but do not represent a musical unit, which forces the listener to pick and choose.That being said they belong to Chopin's masterpieces and I prefer Nelson Freire's interpretation. Pollini who is one of the greatest pianists of all time also delivers an outstanding version. A third option would be Fliter who is one of the best Chopin's interpreters alive.


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## David Pinnegar (Jan 16, 2019)

Today I've had a day of enforced rest and have been looking at Chopin's letters, about which I might start a thread of their own but although "not news" something one takes from these is a style of great sensitivity.

A helpful example I found today among the Hammerwood recordings from a recording of the 1905 baby Broadwood outside and a friend commenting he could not believe the recording to be that piano, let alone outside. . . . a recording of some Chopin demonstrating an important technique - emphasis by deliberate de-emphasis in places where many modern pianists would be declamatory (in terms of Michael Moran's critique of Chopin Competition entrants http://www.michael-moran.com/2015/10/17th-international-fryderyk-chopin.html)

In the hope that this forum is read by aspiring pianists and students it's possibly worth quoting Moran here:



> Unlike so many of you I have grave doubts about the direction Chopin interpretation is taking today and over recent years. Perhaps I have simply read too many historical sources surrounding this music, its gestation and performance when I wrote the chapter for my Polish book A Country in the Moon.
> 
> It seems to me that the Chopin aesthetic, the quality referred to by the great Polish pianist Raoul Koczalski as 'lyrical impressionism' has been, except in the rarest cases, almost completely abandoned or at the very least significantly distorted. Chopin is being forced into our own mass market twenty-first century aesthetic with a certain grim inevitability and this is not without significant spiritual loss. Assembly-line Chopin.
> 
> ...


It's in that spirit that whilst my friend might not be Pollini, Friere or Fliter, his performance is meaningful at least to me and in the spirit of what we read from Moran, who clearly has discernment.






Please forgive the tuning of this recording. It had been the hottest day of the year and the change of temperature caused the bass to go out of tune hideously, but I believe the performance and the music puts that defect in the shade, forgive the pun.

The instrument had started the recital in tune . . .





For any interested in the technicalities of the recording, which includes sounds of birds, even a bee or fly passing the microphone and from memory in the 2nd Sonata, the microphone seen in the video took the direct piano sound for imperceptible reinforcement through a pair of Lowther TP1 speakers. The Tascam DR-40 sound recorder was further back capturing the sound as heard by the audience.

Best wishes

David Pinnegar


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## Larkenfield (Jun 5, 2017)

I think it should be mentioned that at one point Chopin admired the way Liszt played some of his music. Matters of interpretation will always vary and it should be mentioned that Chopin was capable of a great outpouring of energy, in fact a torrential expression of energy, and too docile of an impressionistic approach may not be appropriate or work. But I think there are pianists too rough and grruff and one has to be selective about it. I like what Pollini played here on this extremely difficult étude and I think he's using a dynamic force that's just about right:


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## Larkenfield (Jun 5, 2017)

Lovely spirit of interpretation on an instrument that Chpopin might have greatly enjoyed. I enjoyed his feel for the music.


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## DeepR (Apr 13, 2012)

Larkenfield said:


> I think it should be mentioned that at one point Chopin admired the way Liszt played some of his music. Matters of interpretation will always vary and it should be mentioned that Chopin was capable of a great outpouring of energy, in fact a torrential expression of energy, and too docile of an impressionistic approach may not be appropriate or work. But I think there are pianists too rough and grruff and one has to be selective about it. I like what Pollini played here on this extremely difficult étude and I think he's using a dynamic force that's just about right:


Evgeny Kissin plays a mean live version of the Op. 25 No. 11, with very strong dynamics in the left hand. Which I don't mind myself, in this piece it works.


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## RICK RIEKERT (Oct 9, 2017)

Larkenfield said:


> I think it should be mentioned that at one point Chopin admired the way Liszt played some of his music.


After hearing Liszt play one of his (Chopin's) etudes Chopin wrote to Ferdinand Hiller that he wished Liszt would teach him to play his etudes in the manner in which Liszt played them!


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

marc bollansee said:


> The Nocturnes are extremely poetic but do not represent a musical unit, which forces the listener to pick and choose.


No need to pick and choose. Assuming I'm listening to a recorded set of the Nocturnes, I listen to all of them in one setting.


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## RockyIII (Jan 21, 2019)

I enjoy listening to Chopin's Nocturnes. I like the recording by Maria João Pires, Deutsche Grammophon, 1996.

Rocky


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Here's one


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## flamencosketches (Jan 4, 2019)

I've really been enjoying Ivan Moravec's cycle of the Nocturnes lately, which I understand is very popular but somewhat controversial. Definitely a very interpretive set, and I would guess strict adherence to the score was not really a major concern of his. I mostly appreciate his lightness of touch which really brings out the night time tenderness of the Nocturnes, and sometimes that's all I want to hear. For other times, I always have Rubinstein and Samson François. Rubinstein's Nocturnes are what got me hooked on Chopin to start with.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

flamencosketches said:


> I've really been enjoying Ivan Moravec's cycle of the Nocturnes lately, which I understand is very popular but somewhat controversial. Definitely a very interpretive set, and I would guess strict adherence to the score was not really a major concern of his. I mostly appreciate his lightness of touch which really brings out the night time tenderness of the Nocturnes, and sometimes that's all I want to hear. For other times, I always have Rubinstein and Samson François. Rubinstein's Nocturnes are what got me hooked on Chopin to start with.


Are these different?















There are two sets of nocturnes by him, I'm sure.


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## Clouds Weep Snowflakes (Feb 24, 2019)

I think Barenboim is a great pianist, and this one isn't an exception; for some reason, I just love piano music, and Chopin wrote mostly for the piano, so it's only nature I got my hand for the 21 nocturnes by Barenboim on CDs; as the name suggests, I think they make great music for these quiet nights when everybody else are asleep-with earphones of course!


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## flamencosketches (Jan 4, 2019)

I'm not sure to be honest, but I'm talking about the set originally released in 1965. I have a reissue from a Czech label called Supraphon. I know it's been released other times, I think the second one you posted at least is the same recording that I have. 

I've never listened to Barenboim, piano playing or conducting. Some of my favorite players of Chopin are Martha Argerich, Artur Rubinstein, Samson François, Vladimir Ashkenazy, and now Ivan Moravec. I love hearing his music in new interpretations. There's a hundred different ways to play any one of his pieces.

Definitely great late night headphones music!


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## ccar (Mar 3, 2017)

flamencosketches said:


> I'm not sure to be honest, but I'm talking about the set originally released in 1965. I have a reissue from a Czech label called Supraphon. I know it's been released other times, I think the second one you posted at least is the same recording that I have.


AFAIK, commercially Moravec recorded the Nocturnes only once and in studio - in April (New York) and November (Vienna) 1965. This same recording had a few different releases (and remasterings) in LP and CD over the years - Connoisseur Society / Elektra-Nonesuch / Erato / Supraphon. Curiously, it seems he used a Steinway in N. York and a Bosendorfer in Vienna.

Anyway, Moravec was a fantastic artist and he left us one of the most interesting readings of the Nocturnes.


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## flamencosketches (Jan 4, 2019)

Thank you for clarifying. Indeed, it's probably my favorite complete set of the Nocturnes other than perhaps Rubinstein's, which was my first and will remain sentimentally valuable. 

To veer off topic a little bit, Moravec is also very good in both Mozart and Debussy. One of my favorites in the later Mozart concertos.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Yes I think there is only one recording with two transfers. Two recordings of the Preludes if I remember right.


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## ccar (Mar 3, 2017)

Mandryka said:


> Two recordings of the Preludes if I remember right.


Yes, Moravec did a first studio recording of the complete Preludes in 1965 (New York - Connoisseur Society) and a second one in 1976 (Prague - Supraphon). There is another 2000 live recording (released by Hanssler) with a few Preludes (no.17 to 24) and a youtube upload with what seems to be another 2000 live take of the complete set in Toulouse.


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## NLAdriaan (Feb 6, 2019)

Mandryka said:


> Just looking at Woodduck's reaction to those youtube performances, I wonder if this music isn't a victim of the recording industry -- where there's a tendency to have one or two CDs full of them. *The music really is not a cycle at all*, and listening to 60 minutes worth at once may not be the best way to enjoy them. *They're best done in small doses*.


I would think that this argument goes for a lot of music, but surely for Chopin's Nocturnes. Chopin's Nocturnes were composed throughout his active career. They merely have their name in common. Listening to one separate nocturne reveals the quality of these pieces. Listening to the series changes the music into a sentimental musical wallpaper.

The name Nocturne perhaps added a sentimental value and indeed some of these pieces got very popular, as Chopin's oeuvre in general. It is also tempting to play Chopin in a sentimental mood, because the audience will swoon by it. So, Chopin became more of a guilty pleasure of the 'serious' music-fan. I must admit that this at least goes for me.

I think Chopin's Nocturnes are underrated.

As to releasing complete music sets, the music industry may be blamed, but I think it is the clientele (us) who just wants to have complete collections. A piano recital with a selection of various composers by the pianist, doesn't sell as easy as a complete set. So, pianists are forced to record entire cycles, also if there is no musical logic behind it. I only know of Richter who just ignored marketing and played what he liked, almost never a full cycle.

As to favoured Nocturnes recordings, I have complete sets by Rubinstein (more poetic) and Pollini (more authorative), quite complementary and both to me as good as it gets. My Barenboim selection is not in the same league. I just checked my recital discs, much of them with Chopin, but very rarely nocturnes.


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## NLAdriaan (Feb 6, 2019)

Mandryka said:


> ... One performer who gives me hope, a performer who finds a great delicacy, subtlety in the music, who makes the music as elusive as a poem by Mallarmé, is Dang Thai Son, here
> 
> View attachment 111725


Interesting story on Dang Thai Son, likely the only Vietnamese pianist to ever appear (well, not often enough) on the international stage:

https://montrealgazette.com/entertainment/a-pianist-who-is-famous-for-not-being-famous

Interesting, as Son actually won the 1980 Warsaw Chopin Concours, the one where Pogorelich was eliminated and Argerich resigned. Here you see that becoming a famous pianist not only has to do with real quality, also with marketing.


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## Larkenfield (Jun 5, 2017)

Aargh. I cannot take this man's rubato... and he starts off at a hesitant glacial pace. Chopin wrote this posthumously discovered Nocturne when he was obviously young and he's being played here like an old man. I didn't care for Pletnev's Schumann either with his tempo fluctuations. It's too bad because he can sometimes be brilliant.

Brigitte Engerer's Nocturnes aren't mentioned nearly enough:


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## Eva Yojimbo (Jan 30, 2016)

Arrau is my reference if I want to hear this music taken seriously. Ohlsson's very fine as well. Most do indeed tend to turn these pieces into pretty, "musical wallpaper," but I believe there's more to them then that.


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## jegreenwood (Dec 25, 2015)

Mandryka said:


> Just looking at Woodduck's reaction to those youtube performances, I wonder if this music isn't a victim of the recording industry -- where there's a tendency to have one or two CDs full of them. The music really is not a cycle at all, and listening to 60 minutes worth at once may not be the best way to enjoy them. They're best done in small doses.


In the early days of CDs, Philips released a single disc selection of Arrau's Chopin on its Silverline label. The sequencing really clicked for me. I am away from home for a few weeks, but I can provide the track listing when I get back. Or maybe you can find it on the net.


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## larold (Jul 20, 2017)

_Some of the comments already made, and some I've seen elsewhere, might seem dismissive to many people. Is the sweetness of these works, or their short length, or (dare we admit) their popularity holding them back in some of our esteems? _

I can only speak for myself; a lot of Chopin's miniatures, when played in groups, seem to have a diminishing value to me. They are great when they begin but, because they are so alike, the glory wears off easily. I find this trying to listen to any group of Chopin's works -- a whole album full -- with the possible exception of the four ballades.

I would add I have the same issue trying to listen to a whole record of Bach preludes and fugues or trying to hear all Beethoven's bagatelles in one hearing.

In comparison to food I see Chopin's nocturnes as less than a side dish, something more akin to a flavoring or relish. For me a little goes a long way but more easily becomes too much.

It's probably no surprise my favorite Chopin "collection" is the score to the film The Pianist.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

I listened to Moravec's op 48/1 today, the studio recording from the big set, the asperities in the music, the transitions, have been rather smoothed over.


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## flamencosketches (Jan 4, 2019)

Whose interpretation would you recommend that keeps these "asperities" intact? I'm not familiar with enough different interpretations to make any calls there.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

On a modern piano, you might try Vitalij Margulis in the c minor nocturne.


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## Larkenfield (Jun 5, 2017)

Mandryka said:


>


Nice to hear Moravec's performance again! It seems to get better with repeated listenings. He has such a refined and sensitive touch, never heavyhanded. You have to wait on him a little bit but his rubato is not all over creation. He's patient and does not rush. He's not in a hurry at the beginning. Then he begins to build and add intensity. I believe this is the greatest Nocturne Chopin wrote. It starts quietly with a sense of reserve, then develops into a torrential outpouring of emotions. This is the Romantic era at its best because it's intimate and personal as if he's having an animated conversation with someone special, perhaps with Madame Sand when life was meaningful between them. It's brilliant... and by the time it's over it's as if he's completely exhausted himself emotionally.


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## Larkenfield (Jun 5, 2017)

Valentina Litsitsa Op. 48/1 Nocturne performance that is perhaps slightly more emotionally straightforward than Moravec's and with a more robust touch, perhaps more tragic in feel as well:






The richness of Chopin's harmonic voicings is incredible.


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## flamencosketches (Jan 4, 2019)

Mandryka said:


> On a modern piano, you might try Vitalij Margulis in the c minor nocturne.


Not familiar... but s/he has a name which is eerily similar to a famous mantra from the series Game of Thrones :lol: Will definitely look up that performance.


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## Eva Yojimbo (Jan 30, 2016)

Larkenfield said:


> Valentina Litsitsa Op. 48/1 Nocturne performance that is perhaps slightly more emotionally straightforward than Moravec's and with a more robust touch, perhaps more tragic in feel as well:


Wow, never knew watching a pair of hands could be so hypnotic! That would be beautiful without the sound! I'm a pretty big fan of Lisitsa as a pianist, but I like her better in fiery, virtuosic showpieces more than slower, more poetic pieces. Not a bad performance by any means, but it wouldn't make my short-list.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

flamencosketches said:


> Not familiar... but s/he has a name which is eerily similar to a famous mantra from the series Game of Thrones :lol: Will definitely look up that performance.


Here


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## flamencosketches (Jan 4, 2019)

I found and listened to that very video not long after I had made that comment. Looks like this pianist's recordings are not so easy to find (out of print?), so it was lucky finding that on Youtube. 

I can see what you mean. In this recording, the pianist does seem to highlight the dissonances somewhat compared to Moravec's. I still prefer Moravec's ultra-light touch, and don't find that it saps a great deal of depth from the work, just presents it in a different light. Though of course my preferences are known to change, and there is a time and place for both styles.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Yes, I mean I just wanted to have a shot at stating what’s going on in Moravec’s vision of that nocturne, and indeed in Margulis’s. 

I started to think about it because someone here, maybe on this thread, posted to say that they thought the nocturnes suffered because of their sweetness. When I read it I said to myself that that sounds wrong, that in fact the nocturnes potentially contain some turbulent sounding music, and that it’s just that there’s a tradition to iron out this turbulence, for better or for worse.

Margulis studied with Cortot, I don’t know if the nocturnes CD is still in print. Cortot’s nocturnes recordings are also rather turbulent at times, well worth hearing, but if I remember correctly no op 48/1. 

Others who present a radically different vision from Moravec in the C minor nocturne are Sofronitsky and Gilles.


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## flamencosketches (Jan 4, 2019)

Interesting! My overall favorites in Chopin would have to be Rubinstein on one hand, and then on the other, Cortot himself and his student Samson François. I haven't heard Cortot or Francois play (all of) the Nocturnes, which are far from my favorites among Chopin's works, but I can only imagine both are great. 

By the same token, I'm not sure Moravec's light touch would be so applicable to the Preludes, Etudes, or Polonaises.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

flamencosketches said:


> Interesting! My overall favorites in Chopin would have to be Rubinstein on one hand, and then on the other, Cortot himself and his student Samson François. I haven't heard Cortot or Francois play (all of) the Nocturnes, which are far from my favorites among Chopin's works, but I can only imagine both are great.
> 
> By the same token, I'm not sure Moravec's light touch would be so applicable to the Preludes, Etudes, or Polonaises.


The second recording of the preludes that Moravec made is rather successful I think.


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## flamencosketches (Jan 4, 2019)

I'm not familiar with either recording, but being a fan of his I'm sure I will get around to it eventually. It took me until the past couple weeks to give his Nocturnes a shot. As far as the Preludes, I think Cortot's recordings from 1926 will be hard to top, and I also will always have a soft spot for Argerich, whose CD of the 24 Preludes was the first Chopin I think I ever heard (intentionally, anyway).


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Here's one worth hearing, a glimpse into what could be done with the music, though clearly the performance leaves a lot to be desired. For all its imperfections if this was the only op 48/1 I had, I'd be satisfied.


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## ccar (Mar 3, 2017)

Mandryka said:


> Margulis studied with Cortot, I don't know if the nocturnes CD is still in print.


I don't know of any association with Cortot but Vitalij Margulis certainly deserves to be much more widely known. He was born in Chakrov (Ukraine) in 1928 and studied first with his father and then at the St. Petersburg Conservatory with Samarij Sawshinskij, where he also became a piano teacher in 1958. In 1974 he immigrated to Germany and was professor at Freiburg Musikhochschule until 1994, when he moved to Los Angeles as piano professor at the California University, until he died in 2011. He left us a few memorable recordings (particularly with Chopin, Scriabin, Bach and Beethoven) that can easily testify his musical genius. I believe you just need to try Chopin's op. 48 no.1 or the opening of the sonata no.2 to recognize Vitalij Margulis as one of the greatest interpreters of all time.


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## Larkenfield (Jun 5, 2017)

I believe that Chopin would not have cared for the lack of a greater steadiness of tempo in the left hand of both Hofman and Margulis. It takes away from some of this great nocturne's intensity, passion, and emotional power. It does not need to be interpreted this way because it's like gilding the Lilly with an exaggerated sense of emotional expression. Chopin already put the emotion into music and it does not need to be over-interpreted with an exaggerated rubato in both hands but played more straightforward.


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## AeolianStrains (Apr 4, 2018)

Larkenfield said:


> Chopin already put the emotion into music and it does not need to be over-interpreted with an exaggerated rubato in both hands but played more straightforward.


This is why I love Rubinstein so much.


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## PuerAzaelis (Jul 28, 2021)

Learning so much from this forum so glad I discovered it!

Listening to this now, and loving it:


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## mparta (Sep 29, 2020)

Mandryka said:


> Yes, I mean I just wanted to have a shot at stating what's going on in Moravec's vision of that nocturne, and indeed in Margulis's.
> 
> I started to think about it because someone here, maybe on this thread, posted to say that they thought the nocturnes suffered because of their sweetness.
> 
> ...


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

mparta said:


> I don't find the Nocturnes "sweet". They are bitter, erotic, exotic, the most beautiful barcarolle (short of Chopin's barcarolle)


Even "sinister". To me this sounds as if it depicts a story by Edgar Allen Poe (who was born an year before, and died in the same year as Chopin);


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## JohnP (May 27, 2014)

Ivan Moravec's account has been one of my most beloved recordings for decades--since it was published. I've enjoyed Rubinstein and Arrau, but if not for Moravec I don't think this music would move me so deeply.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

For me Moravec is too self conscious in this music.


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## cheregi (Jul 16, 2020)

Chopin's reputation as 'salon music', as too delicate to take really seriously, and his, compared to his contemporaries, reluctance to signal 'intellectualness/artfulness/seriousness' via complex counterpoint both endear him to me quite a bit. I love Edoardo Torbianelli's very HIP Chopin, only two nocturnes but I would love to hear more, it's hard to go back to other Chopin after this for me. Dang Thai Son comes close, maybe - who else?


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## Brahmsianhorn (Feb 17, 2017)

Mandryka said:


> For me Moravec is too self conscious in this music.


And I thought I was the only one who reacted that way to the Moravec. It's been some 25 years, but I remember thinking it sounded mannered and so brought it back to the store.


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

Rubenstein is my current favored rendition of the cycle.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Rubinstein IMO is particularly good in political Chopin. So yes, in a nocturne like op 48/1 -- with all that canon fire in the central section, and that victory anthem at the end, I think he is exceptional. This is the one I like -- not the later ones.

2 Nocturnes, Op. 48: No. 1 in C Minor - YouTube


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

I just listened to the three Rubinstein recordings of op 48/1 and I have to say, I think that decline is the only word -- the thing becomes more and more mannered, and as it happens, slower and slower.

Ordered here by date ascending. I'd be interested to know whether others agree and whether the piano mavens think this is typical of his "development"


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

Only the third video is showing, Mandryka.


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## abrygida (5 mo ago)

My favorite

F.Chopin - Nocturne No.2 in E Flat Major (Op.9/2)





F.Chopin - Nocturne No.20 in C Sharp Minor (Op.Posth.)





F.Chopin - Nocturnes No.21 & No.15 (Fantasia)


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## Rogerx (Apr 27, 2018)

I rediscovered Abbey Simon, stunning playing.


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

There's an album of assorted Nocturnes Roge recorded that seems promising. They are a mix, not just Chopin's works.


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

Rogerx said:


> I rediscovered Abbey Simon, stunning playing.



I love his tone, but it's too fast for me.


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## Chopinist (2 mo ago)

Chopin's nocturnes are amazing, personally, my favourite nocturne is his Op.55 No.1 and his Op.27 No.2. Though the overall structure and elegance of his nocturnes are perfected, I believe some of his _lesser_ famous nocturnes can be a little repetitive and somewhat dull. But even with the fact that his nocturnes get boring sometimes, I can still confidently say that he is the undisputed king of the nocturne category. if you listen to his better nocturnes, you can hear the elegance, despair, calmness, and melodic perfection inside. I hope future generations will not forget about this genius.


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## Rogerx (Apr 27, 2018)

Chopinist said:


> Chopin's nocturnes are amazing, personally, my favourite nocturne is his Op.55 No.1 and his Op.27 No.2. Though the overall structure and elegance of his nocturnes are perfected, I believe some of his _lesser_ famous nocturnes can be a little repetitive and somewhat dull. But even with the fact that his nocturnes get boring sometimes, I can still confidently say that he is the undisputed king of the nocturne category. if you listen to his better nocturnes, you can hear the elegance, despair, calmness, and melodic perfection inside. I hope future generations will not forget about this genius.


I completely agree with you, however there will always be people with other taste. 
Great post by the way and welcome to the site.


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## verandai (Dec 10, 2021)

In my opinion the Chopin Nocturnes are part of the most beautiful music for solo piano.

My favourite Nocturne is Op. 48 No. 1 (C minor), but of course that's my personal taste. The middle part can be a little dull (depending on how it's played), but it definetly belongs there (wouldn't be the same without it).

I tried to write my own piece similar to a Chopin Nocturne. Of course there are some small harmonic changes which aren't exactly idiomatic, but I wanted to also add my own style. As it's only a humble imitation, I've named it "Noctine" (small Nocturne):

Youtube-Video of Noctine


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