# Pet Peeves



## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

I don't see it too much on this forum, I'm glad to say, but on other forums, and various Facebook group pages - we see it often:

Judging a major work by a single attribute, or one of relatively minor importance when considering an entire work - for example -

Someone exults over a Mahler #6 performance because the "hammer blows" sound great....the whole performance may be 2nd or 3rd rate - ineffective tempos, poor playing, no flow or drama, no concept - BUT - the two [or 3 ??!!] _hammer blows_ sound good!! Come on - that's 2 microseconds out of an entire hour and a half of music!!

Mahler seems to suffer most from this weird phenomenon:
another one - Symphony #4 - might be a wonderful performance - brilliant playing, effective conducting, beautiful solo work - BUT - the listener doesn't like it because the _soprano_ in mvt IV "doesn't sound youthful enough"!! Geezus - the orchestra is playing virtuoso stuff for 3/4 of an hour....sounds great, but performance is written off because of the soprano!!

Same with Sym #3 - the _children's chorus_ in mvt V doesn't please them!! a 90+ minute work - with all sorts of major solos, and challenges - downgraded because of one feature of a small movement??

Symphony #5 - again, huge work - so many challenges for the orchestra and conductor - may be absolutely superb performance - no, it gets written off because they don't like the _Adagietto_!! the shortest movement in the work, the prologue to the finale [it's not the main event, or the heart and soul of the symphony!!] - how about the solo trumpet, the solo horn?? No, all that gets discussed is the Adagietto...

Beethoven falls victim to this as well - similar to Mahler 4 - the orchestra plays major league stuff for c 50+ minutes before any voice is heard - major movements, powerful music!! yet the performance is written off because someone _doesn't like the tenor_??!! the whole performance may lack energy, be poorly conducted, lifeless playing, but it's "great" because they like the tenor....

As an orchestra musician, having played so many of these major works, I find this sort of thing rather discouraging....I'm glad people are at least listening to great music, and we all have our key preferences, but come on, people [not aimed at anyone on this forum] - broaden the view, look at the whole package....
Enough rant....just had to vent...thanx....


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## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

PP I find almost completely irrelevant for enjoyment/evaluation of a performance

- Mahler 6 hammer blows
- Bruckner 7 cymbal (or not) I could not care less
- Beethoven Waldstein octave glissandi in the coda of the rondo


PP I share because like with the "curate's egg" a spoiled bit ruins almost everything

- soprano in Mahler 4 because so many sound ugly or mannered or both
- tenor in Beethoven 9, and the other soloists to a smaller extent, the tenor has the most exposed solo with "Froh, wie seine Sonnen fliegen..."


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

Kreisler jr said:


> PP I find almost completely irrelevant for enjoyment/evaluation of a performance
> 
> - Mahler 6 hammer blows
> - Bruckner 7 cymbal (or not) I could not care less


Yes, I forgot the g^%$## d%^&* Cymbal in Bruckner 7/II - another perfect example....wimpy climax, stodgy, pedestrian trudge of a performance, but oh, they use the cymbals at the great payoff!!


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## SONNET CLV (May 31, 2014)

Which is why I simply avoid all music with hammer blows, cymbals, vocalists, or musical instruments. 

I can say: I haven't heard a bad performance of a certain John Cage work, and that suits me well.

If I have a peeve, it's that there are too many folks who disparage any comments made concerning a certain work by John Cage.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)




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## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

PP: an orchestra plays like their lives depend on it giving a thrilling performance...and the maestro gets the credit. And is usually quite happy to take all the credit, where sometimes he deserves very little.


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

If someone likes a performance and one aspect particularly sticks out in their mind enough to comment on it - I applaud their enthusiasm. What difference does it make to me how they respond to a Mahler symphony? They are listening to Mahler. It could be the beginning of a longer discussion about other aspects of the work.

Pet peeve: people who look down their nose at listeners whom they see as having inferior appreciation.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

I know Heck148 likes this passage from Beethoven 4th


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

mbhaub said:


> PP: an orchestra plays like their lives depend on it giving a thrilling performance...and the maestro gets the credit. And is usually quite happy to take all the credit, where sometimes he deserves very little.


I played a Sheherazade once where the conductor did this - NO solo bows for any of the principal soloists - clarinet, bassoon, oboe, horn, cello, etc - not even the Concertmaster!! who really did a fine job on the demanding solo....no bows!!
The orchestra board canned the guy - they were already getting fed up with his bs, this put the frosting on the cake...


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

SanAntone said:


> I applaud their enthusiasm....They are listening to Mahler.


Yes, at least they are listening, which is very good...I agree....


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

hammeredklavier said:


> I know Heck148 likes this passage from Beethoven 4th


right, but I don't judge a performance solely on the bassoon lick in mvt IV....


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## Knorf (Jan 16, 2020)

I've read a Hurwitz review where he panned a recording, gave it a low score, and literally his only coherent negative remark—which he took at least two long, discursive paragraphs to explain—was rambling about what he thought was the "totally wrong" choice of tam-tam model in the last movement.


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

Knorf said:


> I've read a Hurwitz review where he panned a recording, gave it a low score, and literally his only coherent negative remark-which he took at least two long, discursive paragraphs to explain-was rambling about what he thought was the "totally wrong" choice of tam-tam model in the last movement.


Right!! exactly what I'm talking about!! writes the whole thing off, because the tam-tam sound displeases him....


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## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

The tam tam fetish is crazy but DH had cultivated this already many years ago in his written reviews at ClassicsToday.

I think it really unfair on some CD covers when they name string soloists, e.g. in some Haydn symphony or even Brahms 1 (ii) or Brahms 2nd pc (iii) because there are short violin or cello soli, e.g. in the trios of Haydn's 95 and 97 but not the woodwind soloists with the many oboe and sometimes bassoon or flute solos in similar or the same pieces.


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## Olias (Nov 18, 2010)

Nothing personal to anyone here who might fall into this category, but my pet peeve is when people never seem to even consider the possibility that a newer recording could conceivably be better than something recorded 75 years ago. Their list of preferred recordings apparently cannot contain any names other than Toscanini, Furtwangler, Karajan, Klemperer, etc. NO OFFENSE to those conductors and their body of work. It's just whenever I see lists like this I want to throw up my hands and say "So NO ONE since 1934 has recorded a Beethoven symphony better (or at least equal)."

It's totally okay to like what you like, it just seems a bit close-minded to never consider more recent recordings as even a possibility. It's not a judgement on my part, just a pet peeve.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

Heck148 said:


> Judging a major work by a single attribute


Most of the time, in the threads like <Symphony 40 vs. Symphony 41: Mozart>, people talk of the fugal coda of Mozart's 41th as if it's the only thing they listen for. But there are other passages in the symphony that feel just as heart-wrenching to me.


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## 59540 (May 16, 2021)

Heck148 said:


> Same with Sym #3 - the children's chorus in mvt V doesn't please them!! a 90+ minute work - with all sorts of major solos, and challenges - downgraded because of one feature of a small movement??


Yeah, but wouldn't that throw some shade on the whole thing? If you got to the last movement flawlessly but in that last movement 4 or 5 violins had gone out of tune, it would still be a less-than-stellar performance regardless.


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## progmatist (Apr 3, 2021)

I read an Amazon review of the performance of Mahler's 2nd, with Neeme Jarvi conducting members of the New York Philharmonic, The Philadelphia Orchestra, New Jersey Symphony, Detroit Symphony, and Metropolitan Opera Orchestra. Because Mr. Jarvi made one wrong gesture, that ruined the entire performance for the reviewer, who gave it 1 star.


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## SONNET CLV (May 31, 2014)

Knorf said:


> I've read a Hurwitz review where he panned a recording, gave it a low score, and literally his only coherent negative remark-which he took at least two long, discursive paragraphs to explain-was rambling about what he thought was the "totally wrong" choice of tam-tam model in the last movement.


Let _this_ (below), hopefully, be the last word about tam-tams!


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## Chilham (Jun 18, 2020)

Olias said:


> Nothing personal to anyone here who might fall into this category, but my pet peeve is when people never seem to even consider the possibility that a newer recording could conceivably be better than something recorded 75 years ago. Their list of preferred recordings apparently cannot contain any names other than Toscanini, Furtwangler, Karajan, Klemperer, etc. NO OFFENSE to those conductors and their body of work. It's just whenever I see lists like this I want to throw up my hands and say "So NO ONE since 1934 has recorded a Beethoven symphony better (or at least equal)."
> 
> It's totally okay to like what you like, it just seems a bit close-minded to never consider more recent recordings as even a possibility. It's not a judgement on my part, just a pet peeve.


This. ..........................


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## Brahmsianhorn (Feb 17, 2017)

I think the phenomenon is more pronounced among those who seek the one “perfect” recording where nothing sounds wrong to their ears. At some point you realize that no such thing exists and to just appreciate each recording for what it offers.

There is the Bernstein Mahler 9 with the BPO where several members of the brass stopped playing at the climax of the Adagio. I read it was because someone in the audience had a heart attach and died. Anyways, Hurwitz of course dismissed the entire recording on that basis, but for me there is so much more to the performance that outweighs that one flub.


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

hammeredklavier said:


> Most of the time, in the threads like <Symphony 40 vs. Symphony 41: Mozart>, people talk of the fugal coda of Mozart's 41th as if it's the only thing they listen for. But there are other passages in the symphony that feel just as heart-wrenching to me.


Yes!! good example....I happen to really love the inner mvts of Mozart #41....the slow mvt Andante cantabile has such poignancy, it's beautiful...and the Menuetto is my favorite of any in this genre, the descending line is so special....


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

dissident said:


> Yeah, but wouldn't that throw some shade on the whole thing? If you got to the last movement flawlessly but in that last movement 4 or 5 violins had gone out of tune, it would still be a less-than-stellar performance regardless.


Well, yes, of course, everything counts....I have no issue with someone picking on a technical flaw...how important it is depends on the individual listener...my issue is more along the lines of-
re Mahler #3 - 
question: <<how did the huge first mvt come off, how is the big trombone solo, how's the posthorn solo in mvt 3, how did the finale go??>>
response: <<Huh?? what trombone solo?? what posthorn solo?? finale?? what's that??>>


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

Kreisler jr said:


> The tam tam fetish is crazy but DH had cultivated this already many years ago in his written reviews at ClassicsToday.
> 
> I think it really unfair on some CD covers when they name string soloists, e.g. in some Haydn symphony or even Brahms 1 (ii) or Brahms 2nd pc (iii) because there are short violin or cello soli, e.g. in the trios of Haydn's 95 and 97 but not the woodwind soloists with the many oboe and sometimes bassoon or flute solos in similar or the same pieces.


Agree completely - I'm glad to say, that finally, some labels are listing the orchestra members in the enclosed booklets...way, way past due....


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## 59540 (May 16, 2021)

Heck148 said:


> Well, yes, of course, everything counts....I have no issue with someone picking on a technical flaw...how important it is depends om the individual listener...my issue is more along the lines of-
> re Mahler #3 -
> question: <<how did the huge first mvt come off, how is the big trombone solo, how's the posthorn solo in mvt 3, how did the finale go??>>
> response: <<Huh?? what trombone solo?? what posthorn solo?? finale?? what's that??>>


Yeah I see what you mean. I think that kind of nitpicking is certainly prevalent in solo instrumental recordings and performances. I've been listening to some of those old Casals records and there is string squeak every now and then that would probably be mortifying to a modern player. But I think it just sounds natural.


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## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

I suppose some people would be annoyed that I dismiss almost any recording that corrupts a work by 1) making cuts, 2) re-orchestration, or 3) willfully violating the composer's explicit directions. And I confess that recordings that do any of those are way down on my list. Is that being petty? Well, maybe...I've been wallowing in and loving that 120-disk set of Ormandy mono Columbia recordings - what a treasure trove of mid-century performance practice. There hasn't been a dud yet in the whole set. And yet, looking back at it, Ormandy committed crimes 1, 2, and 3 regularly and with flair. Scheherazade - cut. 1812 - cut. He loved to add cymbal and tam tams: New World symphony, Romeo and Juliet, Prokofieff 7th. But despite his tampering the music making is astonishing; no wonder audiences loved him and record collectors snapped up his every offering. So my Pet Peeve may get a rest.


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## MarkW (Feb 16, 2015)

On the other hand, when I got rid of most of my LPs for the sake of keeping the house from exploding, I kept one disc for exactly one second of music! Ansermet's single Decca LP of excerpts from The Nutcracker contains one passage in the traditional suite (I forget which number, but you know it) with a familiar trumpet solo, consisting of two repetitions of a 5 or 6 measure line connected by a fast rising six-note run. I have never in my life heard so crystalline a fast trumpet run. Every note told, not a slur in sight!. I don't listen to it often, but every time I do, I marvel at that passage (and wonder who the OSR's principal trumpet at the time was).


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## golfer72 (Jan 27, 2018)

Heck148 said:


> I don't see it too much on this forum, I'm glad to say, but on other forums, and various Facebook group pages - we see it often:
> 
> Judging a major work by a single attribute, or one of relatively minor importance when considering an entire work - for example -
> 
> ...


Well said! Pretty much agree


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

MarkW said:


> On the other hand, when I got rid of most of my LPs for the sake of keeping the house from exploding, I kept one disc for exactly one second of music! Ansermet's single Decca LP of excerpts from The Nutcracker contains one passage in the traditional suite (I forget which number, but you know it) with a familiar trumpet solo, consisting of two repetitions of a 5 or 6 measure line connected by a fast rising six-note run. I have never in my life heard so crystalline a fast trumpet run. Every note told, not a slur in sight!. I don't listen to it often, but every time I do, I marvel at that passage (and wonder who the OSR's principal trumpet at the time was).


That's "Chocolate" the Spanish Dance....
I think it was Roger Delmotte....
Bud Herseth knocks it off with crystal clarity on Reiner's Suite selections....


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## MarkW (Feb 16, 2015)

Heck148 said:


> That's "Chocolate" the Spanish Dance....
> I think it was Roger Delmotte....
> Bud Herseth knocks it off with crystal clarity on Reiner's Suite selections....


Thanks! .


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## FrankinUsa (Aug 3, 2021)

Pet peeves,,,,,threads that are “trap.”


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

My pet peeve is when someone declares a recording or performance of a much recorded work to be "the best" - at least unless they give you the idea that they know many alternatives. Not only is there very unlikely to be such a thing as "the best" - and isn't the pleasure of listening to much recorded works in the infinite variety of truths and inspirations that interpreters can find in them? - but even if there were how would someone who only knows a few recordings know that they had heard it. And yet they mislead readers with dishonest advice.

It's silly, I know, but that has always irritated me.


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## 59540 (May 16, 2021)

Enthusiast said:


> My pet peeve is when someone declares a recording or performance of a much recorded work to be "the best" - at least unless they give you the idea that they know many alternatives. Not only is there very unlikely to be such a thing as "the best" - and isn't the pleasure of listening to much recorded works in the infinite variety of truths and inspirations that interpreters can find in them? - but even if there were how would someone who only knows a few recordings know that they had heard it. And yet they mislead readers with dishonest advice.
> 
> It's silly, I know, but that has always irritated me.


Well yeah, but I think it should be understood that, eg "Gould's 1955 GV recording is the best" is a matter of someone's opinion, and I don't share it ..but it doesn't bother me if someone does feel that way.


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

Enthusiast said:


> My pet peeve is when someone declares a recording or performance of a much recorded work to be "the best".....
> It's silly, I know, but that has always irritated me.


I think we all understand that "best" is a qualified judgement - as in - <<Recording XXXX is the "best" [that I've heard]>>

In the same vein - it always bugs me a little when someone declares that recording "such and such" is the _definitive recording_ of the work!! "definitive" except for all of the other good ones!!


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## Forster (Apr 22, 2021)

Enthusiast said:


> My pet peeve is when someone declares a recording or performance of a much recorded work to be "the best" - at least unless they give you the idea that they know many alternatives. Not only is there very unlikely to be such a thing as "the best" - and isn't the pleasure of listening to much recorded works in the infinite variety of truths and inspirations that interpreters can find in them? - but even if there were how would someone who only knows a few recordings know that they had heard it. And yet they mislead readers with dishonest advice.
> 
> It's silly, I know, but that has always irritated me.


Not silly, though I note some are trying to tell you otherwise.

A pet peeve doesn't have to be justified. It's an instinctive irritation, not necessarily a cogently argued complaint.


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## fluteman (Dec 7, 2015)

I know what you mean, but in the Mahler symphony examples you give, the only one I recall seeing with any frequency (and like you being slightly annoyed by) concerns the children's chorus near the end of the 3rd symphony. Critics seem to have some inexplicable need to find fault with it.

OTOH, there are certain things which, if not done well, can all but ruin the entire performance for me. One of these is the wordless chorus at the end of Neptune, the final movement of Holst's famous suite The Planets.


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## BachIsBest (Feb 17, 2018)

This very thing often bothers me. I know one poster discounted the entire Mahler 2nd Klemperer recorded in the studio because of the mistake in the cellos at the beginning of the first movement. Couldn't get over it. Ultimately, it doesn't affect me, and if a different recording of Mahler's 2nd floats one's proverbial boat, whatever, but it's just so baffling to me how one small moment being wrong could so dramatically affect one's whole enjoyment of the work.


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