# Your Beethoven Frankencycle



## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

It's often said that no single cycle of Beethoven's symphonies has the best performances of every one of them. If you agree, who would be in your ideal mix-and-match cycle? Here's mine, for today anyway. Yours?

1 - Gardiner
2 - Walter
3 - Klemperer
4 - Walter
5 - Liebowitz
6 - Walter
7 - C. Kleiber
8 - Gardiner
9 - Fricsay


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## DiesIraeCX (Jul 21, 2014)

1. Gardiner
2. Gardiner
3. Bernstein (Sony)
4. Immerseel
5. Kleiber
6. Walter
7. Kleiber
8. Gardiner
9. Karajan 1960s


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## bz3 (Oct 15, 2015)

1. Immerseel
2. Harnoncourt
3. Gardiner
4. Immerseel
5. Karajan
6. Chailly
7. Kleiber
8. Gardiner
9. Karajan


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Post withdrawn.


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## Boldertism (May 21, 2015)

1. Gardiner
2. Gardiner - alt. Wand
3. Gardiner - alt. Bohm, Bernstein NY
4. Gardiner
5. Karajan 80's - alt C. Kleiber, Bernstein NY, Gardiner
6. Muti - alt. Bohm
7. Gardiner - alt. von Dohnanyi/Cleveland, Karajan 60's
8. Gardiner
9. Muti - alt. Karajan 80's


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## ArtMusic (Jan 5, 2013)

Not in any particular order,

Hogwood
Gardiner
Harnoncourt
Roy Goodman
Norrington
Immerseel
Emmanuel Krivine
Gardiner


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Haitink/ Bernstein / Karajan.
In no particular order


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## Adair (Feb 9, 2016)

Furtwangler/Gardiner/Kleiber
How's that for a monster?


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## kartikeys (Mar 16, 2013)

I haven't listened to everybody so won't comment.
The list, however, is very useful for researchers and learners to 
see the differences between interpretations.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

1&2 Karajan 1963 ( special mention to Toscanini)
3 Karajan 1977 (Toscanini is volcanc but poor recording. Klemperer had a superb funeral march but first movement is too slow)
4 Karajan 1963 (Toscanini and Klemperer also get a mention)
5&7 C Kleiber ( with special mention to Klemperer 1955 in 7)
6 Karajan 1977 (with Klemperer and cluytens)
8 Karajan 1963
9 Karajan 1977


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

Klemperer....................


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## Chronochromie (May 17, 2014)

I'm more than satisfied with Gardiner's recordings for every single one. But then again, I haven't heard others in a while, so I'll try some of those suggested here.

Maybe I'll do a similar thread for Mahler's symphonies...


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## premont (May 7, 2015)

KenOC said:


> It's often said that no single cycle of Beethoven's symphonies has the best performances of every one of them. If you agree, who would be in your ideal mix-and-match cycle? Here's mine, for today anyway. Yours?
> 
> 1 - Gardiner
> 2 - Walter
> ...


It is impossible to answer this question in a so specific way, the competition is too great.

On a more general level:

Of the traditional readings I generally but not exclusively prefer Walter, Klemperer, Maag, Kletzki and Fricsay.
Of the HIP readings I generally prefer Hanover Band and Hogwood.
Of the more or less HIP-inspired readings Harnoncourt and Mackerras.


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## gardibolt (May 22, 2015)

My list (the first prerequisite being observation of all repeats, though not necessarily on the da capo of minuets and scherzi):

1 - Leibowitz if you want modern sound; Toscanini 1939 if you can tolerate historical sound
2 - Hogwood, AAM
3 - Bernstein New York 1964. Haitink's most recent recording is an acceptable substitute.
4 - Rattle Vienna 2002 if you want modern sound; Toscanini 1939 if you can tolerate historical sound
5 - Zander
6 - Dorati, London Symphony Orch
7 - Carlos Kleiber
8 - Hogwood AAM
9 - Leibowitz if you want modern sound; Toscanini 1952 if you can tolerate historical sound.


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## BlackAdderLXX (Apr 18, 2020)

I've actually been thinking about this because I need to free up space on my phone's SD card...

1. Harnoncourt/CoE
2. Harnoncourt/CoE
3. Honeck
4. Walter/Columbia
5. Kleiber
6. Walter/Columbia
7. Kleiber
8. Bernstein/NY
9. Bernstein/NY


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## Merl (Jul 28, 2016)

I knew you'd find this thread, Blackadder. I told you it was around. 

Oh go on, I'll play but I'm not repeating any conductor / orchestra in each set

1. Blunier / Beethoven Bonn
2. De Vriend / Netherlands
3. Weil / Tafelmusik
4. Stan the man / Saarbrucken
5. Markevitch / Lamoureux
6. Immersel / Anima Eterna
7. Honeck / Pittsburgh
8. Norrington / SWR
9. Tennstedt / LPO (live 1991 from the Memories set) 

OR

1. Hogwood / AAM
2. Chailly / Leipzig
3. Honeck / Pittsburgh
4. Wand / NDR
5. Karajan / BPO (63)
6. Kubelik / VPO
7. Lan Shui / Copenhagen
8. Markevitch / Lamoureux
9. Leinsdorf / BSO


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

1 - Toscanini, Reiner
2 - Solti, Walter/NYPO, Reiner/PittsSO
3 - Toscanini '49, Reiner, vonMatacic
4 - Solti, Mravinsky, Toscanini
5 - Reiner, Toscanini
6 - Reiner, Walter/ColSO, Szell
7 - Solti, Szell, Dorati
8 - Toscanini, Reiner, Szell
9 - Reiner


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## MarkW (Feb 16, 2015)

1 Toscanini
2 don't know enough to have a favorite
3 Toscanini 1949
4 Furtwangler or Bernstein
5 no favorite (seldom listen to it)
6 Karajan
7 Fricsay
8 Schmidt-Isserstedt
9 Munch


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## BlackAdderLXX (Apr 18, 2020)

Merl said:


> I knew you'd find this thread, Blackadder. I told you it was around.
> 
> Oh go on, I'll play but I'm not repeating any conductor / orchestra in each set
> 
> ...


Honeck 7th is that good? I first heard him on Eroica and I'm liking his style but have yet to hear his 7th.


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## Merl (Jul 28, 2016)

BlackAdderLXX said:


> Honeck 7th is that good? I first heard him on Eroica and I'm liking his style but have yet to hear his 7th.


Read the reviews. Theyre not wrong. It's even better than his Eroica.


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## Simplicissimus (Feb 3, 2020)

All in my CD collection:

1. Reiner/Chicago SO, 1961, RCA Living Stereo
2. Szell/Cleveland SO, 1964, Sony (via RCA)
3. Stokowski/London SO, RCA Red Seal
4. Walter/Columbia SO, 1958, CBS Masterworks
5. Ozawa/Chicago SO, 1968, RCA Red Seal
6. Munch/Boston SO, 1955, RCA Living Stereo
7. Szell/Cleveland SO, 1959, Sony (via RCA)
8. Hogwood/AAM, 1988, L'Oiseau-Lyre
9. Wand/NDR, 1986, RCA Red Seal


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## Ulfilas (Mar 5, 2020)

Here goes:

*Symphonies Nos. 1 & 6*
Minnesota Orchestra, Osmo Vänskä (BIS)

*Beethoven - Symphonies Nos. 2 & 7*
Minnesota Orchestra, Osmo Vänskä (BIS)

*Beethoven: Symphony No. 3 'Eroica' & Overtures*
Chamber Orchestra of Europe, Nikolaus Harnoncourt (Teldec)

*Beethoven: Symphonies Nos. 4 & 5*
Daniel Barenboim & Staatskapelle Berlin (Teldec)

*Beethoven - Symphony No. 8, Overtures*
Swedish Chamber Orchestra, Thomas Dausgaard (Simax)

*Beethoven: Symphony No. 9 in D minor, Op. 125 'Choral'*
Soile Isokoski (soprano), Rosemarie Lang (mezzo), Robert Gambill (tenor), René Pape (basss), Chor der Deutschen Staatsoper Berlin (chorus)
Staatskapelle Berlin, Daniel Barenboim (Teldec)


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## Brahmsianhorn (Feb 17, 2017)

Irrespective of sound quality:

1 Furtwängler 11/30/52 live
2 Furtwängler 1948
3 Furtwängler 1944
4 Furtwängler 1943
5 Furtwängler 11/25/47
6 Furtwängler 5/23/54
7 Furtwängler 1953
8 Furtwängler 1953
9 Furtwängler 3/22/42


Stereo sound:

1 Jochum
2 Beecham
3 Klemperer
4 Karajan 1962
5 Bernstein 1976 Amnesty Concert
6 Walter
7 Böhm
8 Karajan 1962
9 Fricsay


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## Axter (Jan 15, 2020)

1. Solti/CSO (70ies).
2. Karajan/BPO (60ies).
3. Solti/VPO (50ies).
4. Solti/CSO (70ies).
5. Solti/VPO (50ies).
6. Solti/CSO (70ies).
7. Bernstein/VPO.
8. Karajan/BPO (60ies).
9. Solti/CSO (70ies).



Disclaimer:
Solti/VPO was not a full cycle (only 3/5/7 in 50ies) but I can’t leave them out.
If insisting on full cycles, I would replace 3rd with Karajan/BPO (80ies) and 5th Solti/CSO (70ies).


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## Oldhoosierdude (May 29, 2016)

For #1,2,4,8 any of these: Szell, Barenboim 99, Blomstedt, Krips, Walter, Drahos, Leibowitz, Morris. 

#3 Drahos
#5 Szell
#6 Krips (Growing up I played it until the grooves wore out. It will always be my favorite.)

#7 Leibowitz (Chailly, eat your heart out)

#9 Fricsay. But someday I might change my mind and go with Szell or Drahos.


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## gvn (Dec 14, 2019)

A DVD Frankencycle:

1. Fruhbeck de Burgos
2. Fruhbeck de Burgos
3. Karajan 1984
4. Munch or Carlos Kleiber
5. Stokowski
6. Böhm
7. Kertesz (played in a single movement without breaks)
8. Monteux
9. Toscanini

Indeed on DVD one is virtually forced to construct a Frankencycle, since relatively few conductors were filmed in all 9 symphonies.

If Stokowski is disallowed on the reasonable grounds that, whatever he was conducting, it certainly wasn't Beethoven, then I suppose I'd choose Karajan 1982.


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## BachIsBest (Feb 17, 2018)

Brahmsianhorn said:


> Irrespective of sound quality:
> 
> 1 Furtwängler 11/30/52 live
> 2 Furtwängler 1948
> ...


Surely you mean 5/25/1947? As far as I know, Furtwängler only made two recordings of the 5th in 1947, one on May 25th and then another two days later on May 27th. The 25th one being his first postwar concert.


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## Brahmsianhorn (Feb 17, 2017)

BachIsBest said:


> Surely you mean 5/25/1947? As far as I know, Furtwängler only made two recordings of the 5th in 1947, one on May 25th and then another two days later on May 27th. The 25th one being his first postwar concert.


Yes, thanks. Typo.

The 5/27 is better recorded, available on DG. But the 5/25 is the more inspired, especially in the finale.


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## Gallus (Feb 8, 2018)

I can't claim to have listened to a great many, but my Beethoven symphonies playlist has these versions to it:

1: Gardiner
2: Gardiner
3: Szell
4: Walter
5: Kleiber
6: Bohm
7: Kleiber
8: Szell
9: Fricsay


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## musichal (Oct 17, 2020)

What I actually have on hand pretty much satisfies me. My selections were driven by budget, availability and mostly blind luck - and I feel I did okay.

I have the Karajan '77 cycle, plus the '85 9th.
I have the Krips, LSO cycle.
Szell, 3rd & 8th.
Zander, Philharmonia 5th & 7th.
Ferencsik, 3rd & 8th.
Dresden, Kegel 4th & 5th.
Philharmonic Promenade London, Boult 2nd, 5th, 6th & 7th.
Royal PO, Wordsworth 1st, 4th, 7th & 9th.

*Usually I stick with Karajan, Krips and Szell. Should I be including any of the others more often?*

When I was young and spun vinyl (health nixes the format now) I always liked Walter and Szell on CBS Masterworks - I keep watching for good deals on those.

No idea what my Frankenlist should be, given these choices except for the Karajan 9th.



BlackAdderLXX said:


> Honeck 7th is that good? I first heard him on Eroica and I'm liking his style but have yet to hear his 7th.





Merl said:


> Read the reviews. Theyre not wrong. It's even better than his Eroica.


Had unexpected windfall yesterday so I gifted myself both the 3rd and 7th, to arrive tomorrow. Now you're costing me money.


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## SearsPoncho (Sep 23, 2020)

I'll just list the ones I feel strongest about.

1) Toscanini/NBC
3) Hans Schmidt-Isserstedt/VPO
4) Karajan/BPO ('63)
5) C.Kleiber/VPO
6) Bohm/VPO
7) Karajan/BPO (63)
9) Ormandy/Philadelphia Orchestra

Honorable Mentions to these recordings:

2) Maazel/Cleveland Orchestra
2) Szell/Cleveland Orchestra
3) Klemperer/Philharmonia
5) Karajan/BPO ('63)
6) Szell/Cleveland Orchestra
7) Muti/Philadelphia Orchestra
8) Muti/Philadelphia Orchestra
9) Furtwangler (any recording he made of the 9th is a wild ride)
9) Karajan/BPO ('77)


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## Xisten267 (Sep 2, 2018)

My favorites at the moment are:

1. Gardiner/ORR
2. Gardiner/ORR
3. Bernstein/NYP
4. Karajan/BPO (60s)
5. Karajan/BPO (60s)
6. Walter/CSO
7. Kleiber/WPO (or Cassuto/NFP for the first movement)
8. Karajan/BPO (60s)
9. Toscanini/NBCSO (1952)


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## TwoFlutesOneTrumpet (Aug 31, 2011)

1. Wand/NDR
2. Wand/NDR
3. Guilini/LAPO
4. Wand/NDR
5. Wand/NDR
6. Bohm/VPO
7. de Vriend/NSO (Szell/Cleveland for the allegretto only)
8. Guilini/La Scala PO
9. Karajan/BSO (77)


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## Nipper (Jun 5, 2020)

*USA*

1 Toscanini / NBC
2 Vänskä / Minnesota
3 Honeck / Pittsburgh
4 Bernstein / NYPO *
5 Reiner / CSO
6 Walter / Columbia SO
7 Muti / Philadelphia
8 Szell / Cleveland
9 Leinsdorf / BSO

* If I could duplicate one conductor, I'd take Walter's 4th, move Lenny to the Eroica, and Honeck to the 7th.

*Germany*

1 Järvi / Bremen
2 Barenboim / Staatskapelle Berlin
3 Karajan / BPO 84
4 Skrowaczewski / SRSO
5 Wand / NDRSO
6 Blomstedt / Dresden
7 Norrington / Stuttgart
8 Chailly / Leipzig
9 Fricsay / BPO

*Vienna*

1 Furtwängler
2 Bernstein
3 Thielemann
4 Böhm
5 C. Kleiber
6 Monteux
7 Kubilek
8 Rattle
9 Schmidt-Isserstedt

*UK*

1 Leibowitz / RPO
2 Harnoncourt / COE
3 Klemperer / Philharmonia
4 Monteux / LSO
5 Karajan / Philharmonia
6 Mackerras / Liverpool
7 Dorati / LSO
8 Haitink /LSO
9 Jochum /LSO

*Overall*

1 Jochum / Concertgebow
2 Barenboim / Staatskapelle Berlin
3 Karajan / BPO 84
4 Blomstedt / Dresden
5 Wand / NDRSO
6 Walter / Columbia SO
7 Szell / Cleveland
8 Kletzki / CPO
9 Reiner / CSO

Well, that was a difficult task. Sorry, it looks like no French orchestras. And I wanted to select Cluytens' Pastoral, but I was already cheating with the BPO listed twice.


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## Holden4th (Jul 14, 2017)

OK, I'll play.

Where I've chosen an historical recording I've also listed a stereo alternative

1. Toscanini 12/51 and Leibowitz
2. Reiner 1945 and Cluytens 
3. Toscanini 12/49 and Bernstein NYPO
4. Walter Col SO
5. Karajan almost any of them, his approach didn't vary much. I do have fondness for his Philharmonia recording.
6. Walter Col SO or Cluytens - I find it very hard to separate them
7. Monteux LSO
8. Katsaris - Liszt Transcription. I've yet to find an orchestral version that really grabs me.
9. Fricsay. Someone mentioned Leibowitz and if it hadn't been his use of Ludwig Weber as the bass/baritone I'd have gone with that also.


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## Brahmsianhorn (Feb 17, 2017)

Different conductor for each:

1 Jochum/BPO
2 Beecham/RPO
3 Toscanini/NBC 1939
4 Böhm/VPO
5 Mackerras/RLPO
6 Klemperer/PO 
7 Bernstein/VPO
8 Van Kempen/BPO
9 Furtwängler/BPO 1942


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## Xisten267 (Sep 2, 2018)

Xisten267 said:


> My favorites at the moment are:
> 
> 1. Gardiner/ORR
> 2. Gardiner/ORR
> ...


Anyone has an opinion on the _*Pastoral*_* by Scholz*? It has been my first _Pastoral_, taken from my mother's CM collection, and I have great sympathy towards it, even being aware (now that I'm older) that it's a budget recording. Böhm, Walter and Klemperer may perhaps be more consistent overall, but this performance is still my favorite for the finale, a very relaxed, peaceful and tranquil _Allegretto_.


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

Xisten267 said:


> Anyone has an opinion on the _*Pastoral*_* by Scholz*? It has been my first _Pastoral_, taken from my mother's CM collection, and I have great sympathy towards it, even being aware (now that I'm older) that it's a budget recording. Böhm, Walter and Klemperer may perhaps be more consistent overall, but this performance is still my favorite for the finale, a very relaxed, peaceful and tranquil _Allegretto_.


Isn't Alfred Scholz the charlatan who illegally appropriated many recordings and released them using various faked orchestra and conductor names? I know that some of the so-called South German Philharmonic recordings of Bruckner have been identified as actually by Skrowaczewski and Gielen and the SW German Radio Orch.


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## Xisten267 (Sep 2, 2018)

Becca said:


> Isn't Alfred Scholz the charlatan who illegally appropriated many recordings and released them using various faked orchestra and conductor names? I know that some of the so-called South German Philharmonic recordings of Bruckner have been identified as actually by Skrowaczewski and Gielen and the SW German Radio Orch.


Yes, he is, and I already recognized this in my post. Unfortunately my mother has a collection of Scholz CDs and I don't know who are the true performers in it. And I like some performances in it, like this one.

Do you like this _Pastoral_? Do you know which recording is this?


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

I haven't listened to it, nor do I know any details about this recording, I was just reacting to recollection of Scholz.


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## Merl (Jul 28, 2016)

Xisten267 said:


> Yes, he is, and I already recognized this in my post. Unfortunately my mother has a collection of Scholz CDs and I don't know who are the true performers in it. And I like some performances in it, like this one.
> 
> Do you like this _Pastoral_? Do you know which recording is this?


It's likely you will never know the true performers. Unfortunately it's not as easy as saying "yes I like Scholz's Pastoral" as the conductor credits change from release to release. Some of the Pastorals on his cheapo releases are credited to him, some are credited to Bystrik Rezucha (real conductor) and some to other conductors. If you put pics of the front and back cover of the cd up or the timings for each movement I'll know if it's Rezucha (it's a spirited enough account but not especially well played), Nanut (real conductor), Scholz (unlikely) or a pseudonym like Duvier, Greenberg, etc.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

KenOC said:


> It's often said that no single cycle of Beethoven's symphonies has the best performances of every one of them. If you agree, who would be in your ideal mix-and-match cycle? Here's mine, for today anyway. Yours?
> 
> 1 - Gardiner
> 2 - Walter
> ...


Where is Ken? I miss you Ken! ❤


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## Xisten267 (Sep 2, 2018)

Merl said:


> It's likely you will never know the true performers. Unfortunately it's not as easy as saying "yes I like Scholz's Pastoral" as the conductor credits change from release to release. Some of the Pastorals on his cheapo releases are credited to him, some are credited to Bystrik Rezucha (real conductor) and some to other conductors. If you put pics of the front and back cover of the cd up *or the timings for each movement* I'll know if it's Rezucha (it's a spirited enough account but not especially well played), Nanut (real conductor), Scholz (unlikely) or a pseudonym like Duvier, Greenberg, etc.


1. Allegro ma non troppo - 10:35
2. Andante Mosso Molto - 13:29
3. Allegro - 5:13
4. Allegro - 3:46
5. Allegretto - 10:46


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## Merl (Jul 28, 2016)

Xisten267 said:


> 1. Allegro ma non troppo - 10:35
> 2. Andante Mosso Molto - 13:29
> 3. Allegro - 5:13
> 4. Allegro - 3:46
> 5. Allegretto - 10:46


That's the Rezucha & Slovak Philharmonic recording in another guise. Times are all about 5 seconds out either way but that's common on these cheapo releases. They change from release to release. Scholz often credited himself but it was doubtful it was him. Most of the ones he credited himself on were already issued as being by someone else. Charlatan. If it is a true digital (should be zero hiss) it will be an Eastern European recording from the early 80s (Slovakia, Slovenia orchestra) and you'll hear woodwinds will be tangy and more prominent. If it sounds analogue it will probably be an unlicensed / bootleg / stolen recording of the ORF by Horvat, Bamberg SO & Horvat or Swarowski, Vienna State Orchestra & Horvat, Melles or Swarowski and they'll be from the early to mid 70s. Woodwinds will be less defined and it will be heavier in sound.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

I guess if I wanted a Beethoven Frankencycle, I would go with this:








https://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/art/sinfonien-1-9/hnum/10307320


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## EvaBaron (Jan 3, 2022)

My list would be 

1- Chailly/GHOL: no one mentions him in this thread but this is an amazing recording that only came out in 2008. Toscanini (1939 or 1952) is just slightly behind Chailly partly because of sound quality. After that Abaddo (2001, Rome) and gardiner.

2- Szell/CleveSO: I have to admit this is the only recording i have listened to yet so this is definitively not set in stone.

3- Bernstein/NYPO: It isn't on Trout's list which baffles me because i have listened to most acclaimed recordings because usually my preferred recordings don't differ that much from the main crowd.

4- Kleiber/BavarianSO: Only Bernstein/NYPO and Toscanini (1939 or 1952) to my ears match the sheer excitement that kleiber brings to this piece, only Kleiber works out the details better than Bernstein and Toscanini IMO.

5- Kleiber/VPO: The recording has it's status for a reason however in the first movement i actually prefer Karajan 63'.

6- Böhm/VPO: Not really anything to say about this except that the storm absolutely slaps and in the first movement böhm makes you feel like you're in the countryside. 

7- Szell/CleveSO: Best allegretto ever!!! I actually prefer the famous Kleiber in the last 2 movements and Szell in the first 2 movements. Since the first 2 movements are more important to me because i like them more i chose Szell

8- Karajan/BPO 63': Karajan just brings a lot of warmth to this symphony which is IMO the highlight of his Beethoven cycles and not the 3rd, 5th or 9th. 

9- Fricsay/BPO 63': Beautifully paced and with a lot of musicality and great singers and orchestra. I don't think the opening to this symphony has been done better by anyone.


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