# Best and Worst Recordings: Bernstein



## Brahmsianhorn (Feb 17, 2017)

Thought I'd go ahead and start this thread

His Best:














































Bernstein's Sibelius 5th blew me out of the water the first time I heard it. It was the first recording that warmed me up to the piece, and that is always a good barometer of what makes a recording great.

Naturally, Bernstein has a special authority in American music. I am also quite fond of his Mozart, especially the symphonies and the choral works. His Mass in C minor, a work I have performed before, is the best available IMO.

Going to have to think about the worst. Most everything Bernstein does is at least interesting if not a first choice. And naturally, his worst recordings would be ones I would not keep or even purchase in the first place.


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

Good nominations, B - 
esp Sibelius 5, Copland 3 [II], and Gershwin...hiis Sibelius 1,3 and 7 are also top-notch...
I always like his NYPO Ives #2 _ from 60s....never heard the remake...

I'd add, ottomh:

forgot to add:

*Shostakovich Sym #7, Sym #1 ChicagoSO/DG from 6/88* - #7 = one of the greatest recordings of ANY symphony, ever...
Schuman Sym#3  from '60
Shostakovich #5/NYPO from '59...
Stravinsky - Le Sacre/NYPO '58
Firebird Suite/NYPO '57
Hindemith Sym In Eb/NYPO '67

Mahler Sym #3/NYPO [II] on DG
Mahler Sym #7/NYPO [I} from 60s

I'm sure I'll think of some more - excellent Haydn Paris syms, American repertoire - Copland, Diamond, Harris, etc..._


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## Brahmsianhorn (Feb 17, 2017)

Heck148 said:


> Shostakovich #5/NYPO from '59...


Oh yes, another great one! Definitely towards the top of any list of LB recordings.

All his Mahler is top notch (though not IMO quite the level achieved by Barbirolli, Horenstein, Walter, and Klemperer). My favorites are his 60s 3rd, 70s 8th (one of the few recordings of the mercurial work I really like), and 80s 6th. His digital 1st and 5th also are essential listening. For some reason I have never warmed up to his 7th, though I know most swear by the 60s recording.


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## MatthewWeflen (Jan 24, 2019)

I am not as versed in Bernstein's discography, but I do have several recordings I admire deeply and one or two that I despise.

*The Best:

*








Bernstein is the foremost Copland authority to my mind. His sensitive, dramatic style really lends itself to Appalachian Spring, and his lyricality and sense of fun perfectly complements Rodeo and Billy The Kid.









Bernstein was one of Mahler's early champions, and his 5th and 6th were voted best in the Mahler People's Edition released by DG/Universal. It's hard to disagree.

*The Worst:*









"Polymorphously Perverse" is the phrase that comes to mind when I think about the tempii in LB's late studio VPO Beethoven cycle. The 5th is an abomination, that I know he has directed far better elsewhere. This recording is just wretched.


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## Guest (Jul 22, 2019)

For compactness, Best and Worst in one recording.










Tempo bizarrely slow, but can't stop myself from listening to it.


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## Alfacharger (Dec 6, 2013)

My take. Along with the DG recording of Ives' Second as best....










Worst, Elgar's Enigma with the lugubrious "Nimrod" variation...


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## flamencosketches (Jan 4, 2019)

Shostakovich 5th NYPO. All of his NYPO Mahler recordings are amazing. I especially like the 2nd and 4th. I need to hear some of his DG Mahler...


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## D Smith (Sep 13, 2014)

I'll just add his Schumann with Vienna to the best list.


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

I can't think of anything by Lenny that I don't like.
His Beethoven, Brahms, Schumann, Mahler, Haydn, it's endless.


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## Alfacharger (Dec 6, 2013)

Another my Bernstein favorites is his recording of Vaughan Williams 4th.


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## MarkW (Feb 16, 2015)

Best _and _worst: the early '60s Brahms Second Symphony. It's interpretively gorgeous, sonically terrible. The dust jacket makes a big deal that it was the first recording made in the then new Philharmonic Hall, whose acoustics were historically, laughably, bad. You could hear them worsening movement by movement. I still like the performance, however.


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

MatthewWeflen said:


> I am not as versed in Bernstein's discography, but I do have several recordings I admire deeply and one or two that I despise.
> 
> *The Best:
> 
> ...


Bernstein really excelled with Copland's music, and American music in general...he completely understood the rhythm, the "jazzy" touch, the brashness, the boldness and harmonic structure of so much of the music.


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

MarkW said:


> Best _and _worst: the early '60s Brahms Second Symphony.


Yes, that's a really good one!! Big, bold, brash....funny, it sounds, in approach and execution, much like the great live Brahms 2 from the NYPO conducted by Reiner in 3/60....<<bells up, balls out>>, all the way...

OTOH - I've never cared for his Brahms 4 with NYPO - bad day for everyone?? simply not happening for me...


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

Alfacharger said:


> My take. Along with the DG recording of Ives' Second as best....


The DG Schuman and Harris are fine accounts - but his earlier efforts with NYPO are even better, from the early 60s...the Schuman ['60] is cosmic, one of those "at the edge", right to the limit performances...matched only by the great Slatkin/CSO performance [2/86]...great performance of Harris ['61] as well...


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## flamencosketches (Jan 4, 2019)

Worth mentioning, I think. Beethoven Piano Concerto No.3 with Glenn Gould, Columbia Symphony Orchestra.


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## Brahmsianhorn (Feb 17, 2017)

MatthewWeflen said:


> I am not as versed in Bernstein's discography, but I do have several recordings I admire deeply and one or two that I despise.
> 
> *The Best:
> 
> ...


That circa 1960 Copland recording may be his most acclaimed of all, and rightfully so. An excellent introduction to American music.

I cannot agree with you about the VPO Beethoven cycle. I consider it on the whole to be one of the best ever made. The 6th and 7th outshine any of Karajan's versions, the former for its warmth and the latter for its rhythmic vitality. The 5th is the low point of the cycle, but more for the execution than the approach. It simply lacks the requisite commitment and energy. His 1976 Amnesty concert with the BRSO hits it out of the park. He understood the work in a way that outclasses even Kleiber and Karajan IMO.

Another that must be added to the greatest pile:










The worst Bernstein recording that comes to my mind is this one, one of my favorite works where I just think Lenny misfires from the opening chords. The whole thing sounds disfigured and lacks flow, like he was trying too hard to make sense of the score rather than just letting it happen naturally.


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## Guest (Jul 23, 2019)

^^^ On the Brahms we agree...


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## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

When I look over his recorded legacy, isn't it utterly astonishing how wide his repertoire was? And how well he did practically all of it? From Haydn on to Beethoven, Schumann, Brahms, Dvorak, Mahler...Tchaikovsky, Rimsky-Korsakov, Shostakovich, Prokofiev...then Americans Copland, Harris, Ives...he did everything so well. Maybe the greatest all-round conductor of all time? It's really hard to name his greatest, so why bother. His worst is no easier, but I have to say I found this Tchaikovsky 6th awful - he treats it more like Mahler than the Russian master. The first Columbia recording was so much better.


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## Gallus (Feb 8, 2018)

Two of my favourite Bernstein recordings:










Some of the most joyful, delightful, _fun_ music ever made, in my opinion.










And this one has a haunting violin concerto by Hindemith, one of the most underrated out there.


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

Brahmsianhorn said:


> Another that must be added to the greatest pile:


Yup!!definitely - I added it p.s. to my original response....one of the best recordings of ANY symphony ever made....


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## Hiawatha (Mar 13, 2013)

This is also good for Hindemith:

https://www.prestomusic.com/classic...emith-mathis-der-maler-other-orchestral-works

I like Bernstein's own symphonies.

Many don't.


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## Brahmsianhorn (Feb 17, 2017)

Baron Scarpia said:


> ^^^ On the Brahms we agree...


Just listened to it again and it's just as awful as I remembered. I have no idea what he was thinking. It is almost like a parody of out-of-control lugubriousness. Everything milked to the extreme and no sense of pulse.

The rest of his VPO Brahms is pretty good. The second is the least tampered with and is very successful. The first has a few odd gear shifts, but it still works. He brings out the angst of the work better than most. And the 4th is pretty good but for me is spoiled by some gear shifts that just disrupt it a bit too much, I think in the final movement if memory serves.


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## Brahmsianhorn (Feb 17, 2017)

Bernstein's greatest Mahler recording may well be one available on DVD as opposed to CD, this VPO 9th recorded in the Berlin Philharmonie in 1971. It's a riveting visual as well as aural document of the greatness of this man in the music of the composer he revered and championed above all others.


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

Wow, I love that Vienna Brahms 3. I just listened to it and was overwhelmed.
I guess I just resonate with Lenny.


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## Brahmsianhorn (Feb 17, 2017)

Itullian said:


> Wow, I love that Vienna Brahms 3. I just listened to it and was overwhelmed.
> I guess I just resonate with Lenny.


Usually I do too just not on that one. It's one of my absolute favorite symphonies. I like the versions by Furtwangler, Van Beinum, Abbado, Jochum, Cantelli, and Kempe. Lenny's is just too deliberate for me. I need to hear some semblance of a pulse! 

Listening now to his earlier NYPO recording and it's a night and day difference. Hard to believe it's the same conductor.


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## CnC Bartok (Jun 5, 2017)

I am not the biggest fan of Lenny, although my attitude towards him has softened in recent years. That said, I still find other people's Mahler more appealing. Same for Sibelius, and those later DGG recordings are ahem.... eccentric, shall we say...

Two pieces i reckon he does as well as anyone, if not better. Firstly, the CBS Sibelius Pohjola's Daughter is the best out there. His Nielsen Fifth seriously takes some beating too.


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## Merl (Jul 28, 2016)

As with Karajan there were highs and lows.

*The Highs:*

One of the finest New World recordings {before he did that awful remake with the Israelis). Vibrant, urgent and dynamic. 








Arguably the best thing Bernstein did with the VPO. Great balances and lovely playing. 








*The Lows:*

Awful. A clusterf#ck from start to finish.








One of my most hated Beethoven cycles. It may be beautifully played but it's often broad, schmaltzy and nowhere near as good as his New York cycle. Yuch.


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

I am anxiously awaiting the new remaster of that set.
Actually, I find Gardiner and his ilk ridiculous.
Vive les diference! :cheers:


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Towards the end of his life, Lenny had a habit of trying to wring the last drops of emotion out of music and while that might have been OK as a one-off it doesn't bare public performance, as in his Mahler 9th from Amsterdam. His performance with the BPO is much better. However, there are some absolute gems such as the Falstaff with D F-D which is brilliantly conducted.









Everyone should hear this - it is a joy despite D F-D's controversial Falstaff


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## CnC Bartok (Jun 5, 2017)

^^^^ And if you don't like that Falstaff, you can always give the cover to an optometrist, perfect for determining one's prescription.


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## Kiki (Aug 15, 2018)

Two more candidates for the best and the worst of Lenny fused into one -

A monumental Pathétique that doesn't sound like the Pathétique.









A brilliantly swinging Ravel concerto with Lenny conducting from the piano that is equally sluggish.


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## Olias (Nov 18, 2010)

Its a DVD as opposed to CD but LB's 1978 production of Fidelio is a great recording.


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

I'm a big Lennie fan although I find his late recordings to be a mix of the truly awful and the marvelous. One of his most infamous recordings in his Enigma Variations but I'm afraid to say I actually enjoy it! I also like all of his late Sibelius recordings even though I can hear than some of them are really indulgent. But I can't take his second (last) Mahler 9 or his late Beethoven recordings.


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## Merl (Jul 28, 2016)

Another 2 good / 2 bad:

Good - Lenny's excellent Grand Canyon Suite and titanic Mahler 1st.
















Bad- his turgid (but historically important but still turgid) Beethoven 'Freedom' 9th (and to think i used to like that snooze-fest) and his Sibelius 1st with the VPO. Sloppy, oppulent, over-indulgent mush.


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## Brahmsianhorn (Feb 17, 2017)

Question for you Merl: Do you automatically reject a recording if it is not the tempo you like, or do you listen though first before coming to a conclusion?

I wonder because I find late Lenny to be hit or miss. Sometimes his indulgences work, and sometimes they do not. I happen for example to like both his DG Beethoven 9ths, the 1979 VPO one more except for a poor-sounding soprano. In fact I rate the VPO version above all the Karajans.


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## Merl (Jul 28, 2016)

Brahmsianhorn said:


> Question for you Merl: Do you automatically reject a recording if it is not the tempo you like, or do you listen though first before coming to a conclusion?
> 
> I wonder because I find late Lenny to be hit or miss. Sometimes his indulgences work, and sometimes they do not. I happen for example to like both his DG Beethoven 9ths, the 1979 VPO one more except for a poor-sounding soprano. In fact I rate the VPO version above all the Karajans.


Far from it, Bhs.Like you said, his late recordings i find to be very hit or miss but one of the worst things about the bad ones is he distended them so they sounded 'wrong' (for want of a better word). For example listen to his shoddy Dvorak 9 remake and then listen to the original in NY. One is crisp, vibrant and exciting and the other is a fatbusinesssman eating the last profiteroles. I usually prefer his new york recordings as they were often more inspired and unexaggerated but thats not always the case. Unlike some i love his late Schumann and even like his Tchaikovsky but comparing his late Brahms to his NY and his Beethoven in Vienna to his NY I just cant take to them.I dont mind slow at all. I have lots of slow Beethoven - Klempererer, Sanderling, Asahina, etc but when its dragged from pillar to post and exaggerated it does my head in.


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## Brahmsianhorn (Feb 17, 2017)

The VPO Brahms cycle is a perfect example of what I'm talking about. I love the 1st but hate the 3rd. Part of the issue is probably due to the nature of the works. The 1st is very heroic and Beethovian. Bernstein swings for the fences, and I find his to be one of the few that really succeeds in communicating the emotional angst inherent in the music. By comparison, Karajan's 1964 recording is one where everything sounds right, but it is too genial. There is no sense of struggle. But the 3rd is a different story. This is a more simple work by its nature. For me Bernstein's VPO interpretation imposes interpretive "meaning" upon the music where it is not really called for.


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## Merl (Jul 28, 2016)

Brahmsianhorn said:


> The VPO Brahms cycle is a perfect example of what I'm talking about. I love the 1st but hate the 3rd. Part of the issue is probably due to the nature of the works. The 1st is very heroic and Beethovian. Bernstein swings for the fences, and I find his to be one of the few that really succeeds in communicating the emotional angst inherent in the music. By comparison, Karajan's 1964 recording is one where everything sounds right, but it is too genial. There is no sense of struggle. But the 3rd is a different story. This is a more simple work by its nature. For me Bernstein's VPO interpretation imposes interpretive "meaning" upon the music where it is not really called for.


Yeah, the nature of the work is important. For example in Bernstein's first Mahler cycle the 4th is really enjoyable. Yes the soloist isn't the best but she sounds good to me. The DG remake using a boy treble sounds plain wrong and ruins what is otherwise a good performance.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

I'd like to get hold of the Sibelius set on Sony. I have the Falstaff recording as well as the Ives no.2, and the William Schuman disc all of which I enjoy in addition the the Mahler Symphonies on Sony and DG. And the Sony Beethoven cycle. And I'm also a fan of his own classical compositions for both labels. Although I prefer the DG recording of Kaddish.


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## Bwv 1080 (Dec 31, 2018)

Lenny has the best recording of Stravinky’s Mass

As for worst, anything with his own compositions


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## Rogerx (Apr 27, 2018)

This was a mistake, goodness me, why did they ever made it.


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

Bwv 1080 said:


> Lenny has the best recording of Stravinky's Mass


Thank you for reminding me, Bwv, except I hear it the other way. Lenny's Stravinsky Mass is (for me) by far the worst performance of that beautiful and austere work that I have ever heard. I really really dislike it and feel it is one of the worst things he ever did. I feel he didn't get the work at all.


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## jegreenwood (Dec 25, 2015)

Here's a bad one. I didn't even have to buy this album - merely watch the complete documentary from which this is excerpted.






How do you cast a Spaniard (who cannot lose his accent) as a tough Polish-American opposing a Puerto Rican street gang?

I treasure the original cast album, though. And his Haydn with the Philharmonic is the best non-HIP Haydn I've heard.


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## Kiki (Aug 15, 2018)

jegreenwood said:


> Here's a bad one. I didn't even have to buy this album - merely watch the complete documentary from which this is excerpted.
> 
> ...
> 
> ...


I have this on LP and digital. :lol: I think the non-operatic singers are great.  But yeah, I agree nothing beats the original cast album.

IMO, in general Lenny played his own music well. His various outings of the On the Waterfront suite, the West Side Story Symphonic Dances, and Facsimile (my soft spot), etc. all sound pretty good to me.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

jegreenwood said:


> Here's a bad one. I didn't even have to buy this album - merely watch the complete documentary from which this is excerpted.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I have heard the choice was originally Jerry Hadley who would have been fine. The problem is the whole thing was over-inflated. None of the voices sounded right. It is a musical not an opera.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Rogerx said:


> This was a mistake, goodness me, why did they ever made it.


Simply dire. The only really great opera recording he made in the studio was Falstaff. The Carmen is weird with all sorts of eccentric tempi and the Tristan is so slow it almost stops.


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## flamencosketches (Jan 4, 2019)

I would like to see similar threads made about the following conductors: Boulez, Klemperer, Haitink. I’d make one myself but I’m nowhere near knowledgeable enough about any of them


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## Rogerx (Apr 27, 2018)

DavidA said:


> Simply dire. The only really great opera recording he made in the studio was Falstaff. The Carmen is weird with all sorts of eccentric tempi and the Tristan is so slow it almost stops.


From time to time I do spin his Carmen recording, I know controversial but it's good for me.


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## NLAdriaan (Feb 6, 2019)

flamencosketches said:


> I would like to see similar threads made about the following conductors: Boulez, Klemperer, Haitink. I'd make one myself but I'm nowhere near knowledgeable enough about any of them


Knowledge is no criterium, as we all love to exchange opinions here and we have plenty of opinions on anything. I do have experiences with Boulez and Haitink, not so much with Klemperer, but there are enough Klemperites around:tiphat:


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## NLAdriaan (Feb 6, 2019)

DavidA said:


> I have heard the choice was originally Jerry Hadley who would have been fine. The problem is the whole thing was over-inflated. None of the voices sounded right. It is a musical not an opera.


Strange that Bernstein couldn't get the right atmosphere in this recording. Maybe the whole idea of DG issuing this, was a misconception. But maybe, Bernstein couldn't get things loose. EMI has a strong tradition with this kind of music with John McGlinn and one of my favourite Rattle recordings is Porgy & Bess.

It seems no one dared to touch Westside Story after Bernsteins own (mis)take, the original recording conducted by Johnny Green with Rita Moreno remains favourite.


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## geralmar (Feb 15, 2013)

I've never seen a decent review of this exuberant, joyous performance; so I guess this is neither best nor worst-- just my favorite. (Plus my favorite album cover).


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## jegreenwood (Dec 25, 2015)

DavidA said:


> I have heard the choice was originally Jerry Hadley who would have been fine. The problem is the whole thing was over-inflated. None of the voices sounded right. It is a musical not an opera.


Hadley did the studio "Candide." The recording is not great, but it's better than WSS. I like it because it contains the fullest version of the complete score (I believe - the score, indeed, every aspect of "Candide," was constantly evolving). I have the original Broadway cast as well.


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## MatthewWeflen (Jan 24, 2019)

Merl said:


> As with Karajan there were highs and lows.
> 
> *The Highs:*
> 
> ...


I would like to second this post, especially the Schumann. It's exceptional. It has all the expressiveness of Bernstein with none of the schmaltz.


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## Orfeo (Nov 14, 2013)

I'll nominate these recordings as among the best, or the most gripping Bernstein had to offer.


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

starthrower said:


> I'd like to get hold of the Sibelius set on Sony.


Lenny/NYPO/Sony complete Sibelius symphonies is a great set...one of the few complete sets that i recommend without hesitation...


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

jegreenwood said:


> Here's a bad one. I didn't even have to buy this album - merely watch the complete documentary from which this is excerpted.


I quite enjoy Bernstein's own recording of WSS....the video is fascinating as well...watching a great conductor work in the recording studio is most interesting. Admittedly, the engagement of mature opera voices to portray Maria and Tony is less than terrific - esp Carreras who is seriously miscast as Tony - his accent is almost comical, and his behavior during the recording sessions less than professional, imo...
However, the energy, the big ensemble pieces, the Dance numbers are quite spectacular, with a great orchestra of NY free-lancers.
Yes, and things were pretty loose once they got going - "America" was done on one take!! Bernstein told the girls that the first run-thru was just for balances, cues, etc...so just relax and have fun...and do they ever!! the "Puerto Rican" girls really whoop it up, really brash and flamboyant...the orchestra picks up immediately on the energy, and it's off to the races....at the end John McClure tells Lenny <<That's it, that's a take!!>> just one percussion cue to dub in because the percussionist didn't switch instruments quite fast enough...this take is great on video..
I do love the original cast recording, great leads, but I wouldn't want to be without Bernstein's own version either....another quite good version is on Naxos - Schermerhorn/Nashville SO....a fine effort overall, the orchestra work isn't quite up to the NYers, but the vocals are good, with good recording balances as a rule....


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## Azol (Jan 25, 2015)

Definitely Tristan - his greatest and his worst in a sense, failing to please the most Wagner fans out there 
I am sooo in the "greatest" minority... guess I am not a Wagner fan in this case


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Orfeo said:


>


Had this Mahler 9th but it had a fault so took its back. I was grateful as the performance of the last movement is impossibly self indulgent imo. The BPO reading is better


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## Orfeo (Nov 14, 2013)

DavidA said:


> Had this Mahler 9th but it had a fault so took its back. I was grateful as the performance of the last movement is impossibly self indulgent imo. The BPO reading is better


I would agree that Bernstein's view of the work was highly personal. But taking this recording into context, we have to remember that Bernstein himself was wrestling with the matter of mortality, as he was entering his final year. What I hear is an artist relating to another in the issue of life and death, and not afraid at the very least to share that with us.

Indulgent? Not necessarily.
Honest and sincere? Absolutely.


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## Orfeo (Nov 14, 2013)

I'll nominate another recording as among the best, or the most gripping Bernstein had to offer.


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## Brahmsianhorn (Feb 17, 2017)

Orfeo said:


> I would agree that Bernstein's view of the work was highly personal. But taking this recording into context, we have to remember that Bernstein himself was wrestling with the matter of mortality, as he was entering his final year. What I hear is an artist relating to another in the issue of life and death, and not afraid at the very least to share that with us.
> 
> Indulgent? Not necessarily.
> Honest and sincere? Absolutely.


Why am I more moved by "self indulgent" conductors than I am by ice cold conductors? Why do I prefer conductors who are open and vulnerable over those who are too proud and vain to open their eyes? I guess there must be something wrong with me.


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

_"Nothing great is achieved without passion, but underneath the passion there should always be that large impersonal survey which sets limits to actions that our passions inspire."_ - Bertrand Russell

While I agree about the open & vulnerable part, my take is that Bernstein didn't understand that limits concept.


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## Orfeo (Nov 14, 2013)

Brahmsianhorn said:


> Why am I more moved by "self indulgent" conductors than I am by ice cold conductors? Why do I prefer conductors who are open and vulnerable over those who are too proud and vain to open their eyes? I guess there must be something wrong with me.


I think the self-indulgent matter/criticism is being overused (or overplayed) to be honest. What we have in Bernstein is this great of an artist who paints a picture on the podium based on what and how he understands in the music, its creator, its genesis and history, and its meaning. Music that is not purely abstract allows that level of freedom, and Mahler's music is not abstract (nor is the music, of say, Wagner, Nielsen, Tchaikovsky, Bax). While Bernstein's personal approach to Mahler's music is clearly his own, the music remains identifiably (for lack of a better word perhaps) Mahler. The meaning of music is simply too wide and nuanced.

I too prefer artists who inject their own artistry into the music they play. It adds layers of our understanding and ultimately our appreciation of that particular work at hand.


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## Azol (Jan 25, 2015)

Orfeo said:


> I'll nominate another recording as among the best, or the most gripping Bernstein had to offer.


You should do the next step, believe me!


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## Orfeo (Nov 14, 2013)

Azol said:


> You should do the next step, believe me!
> 
> View attachment 121789


Thank you Azol.
I'll check it out.
:tiphat:


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## Brahmsianhorn (Feb 17, 2017)

Becca said:


> _"Nothing great is achieved without passion, but underneath the passion there should always be that large impersonal survey which sets limits to actions that our passions inspire."_ - Bertrand Russell
> 
> While I agree about the open & vulnerable part, my take is that Bernstein didn't understand that limits concept.


I actually agree with you here, and this is why Lenny often misfires. His Mozart Requiem is a perfect example. Emotional and dramatic, but also lacking any discipline so that the whole architecture falls.

You need a balance between emotion and structure, and this is where Furtwangler excelled above all others IMO.


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## Brahmsianhorn (Feb 17, 2017)

Orfeo said:


> I think the self-indulgent matter/criticism is being overused (or overplayed) to be honest. What we have in Bernstein is this great of an artist who paints a picture on the podium based on what and how he understands in the music, its creator, its genesis and history, and its meaning. Music that is not purely abstract allows that level of freedom, and Mahler's music is not abstract (nor is the music, of say, Wagner, Nielsen, Tchaikovsky, Bax). While Bernstein's personal approach to Mahler's music is clearly his own, the music remains identifiably (for lack of a better word perhaps) Mahler. The meaning of music is simply too wide and nuanced.
> 
> I too prefer artists who inject their own artistry into the music they play. It adds layers of our understanding and ultimately our appreciation of that particular work at hand.


The task of the conductor is to individually connect with a work, to understand why it was written, and then pass that connection on to the audience. It is NOT simple regurgitation of written instructions. It is a mental, emotional, and spiritual task. Barenboim called it, "thinking with your heart and feeling with your brain."


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## Orfeo (Nov 14, 2013)

Brahmsianhorn said:


> The task of the conductor is to individually connect with a work, to understand why it was written, and then pass that connection on to the audience. It is NOT simple regurgitation of written instructions. It is a mental, emotional, and spiritual task. *Barenboim called it, "thinking with your heart and feeling with your brain*."


Achieving that right balance, in essence.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Becca said:


> _"Nothing great is achieved without passion, but underneath the passion there should always be that large impersonal survey which sets limits to actions that our passions inspire."_ - Bertrand Russell
> 
> While I agree about the open & vulnerable part, my take is that Bernstein didn't understand that limits concept.


Frankly I often wonder at the subliminal nonsense inherent in the saying of people like Russell.


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

DavidA said:


> Frankly I often wonder at the subliminal nonsense inherent in the saying of people like Russell.


Frankly I don't doubt it and am not surprised.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

DavidA said:


> Frankly I often wonder at the subliminal nonsense inherent in the saying of people like Russell.


Frankly I'm past wondering at the overt nonsense inherent in the maligning of their intellectual betters by people who can't get attention any other way.


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## wkasimer (Jun 5, 2017)

DavidA said:


> Simply dire. The only really great opera recording he made in the studio was Falstaff. The Carmen is weird with all sorts of eccentric tempi and the Tristan is so slow it almost stops.


Whenever I listen to Bernstein's T&I, it sounds as though he's only interested in what's happening in the orchestra, and trying to ignore the singing. Given the singers in the title roles, I can't say that I blame him.

His recording of Rosenkavalier isn't bad - but it'd be a lot better without Gwyneth Jones in the title role.


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## Kollwitz (Jun 10, 2018)

Best:
Mahler 1 with the Concertgebouw. Just brimming with vitality and really revelling in the 'vulgar' aspects which is what I think Mahler would've wanted, in addition to the beautiful and atmospheric opening.

Worst:
Brahms 4 with the VPO. Too slow and overblown for me. Beautifully played and interesting, but just feels overly dramatic and lacking momentum (even though I have a soft spot for Giulini's VPO recording). Appreciate that this is an entirely subjective view and that it's not a bad recording as such. I prefer the talk Bernstein gave about it to his recording.


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

Brahmsianhorn said:


> Why am I more moved by "self indulgent" conductors than I am by ice cold conductors? Why do I prefer conductors who are open and vulnerable over those who are too proud and vain to open their eyes? I guess there must be something wrong with me.


The word indulgent is often misused I think. Indulgent must be more than just a performer going his/her own way with a piece of music or being very emotional ("heart of shirtsleeve"). Indulgent and self-indulgent must involve damaging the music in some way. I do think Lennie's later Mahler 9 is definitely self-indulgent.


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

Woodduck said:


> Frankly I'm past wondering at the overt nonsense inherent in the maligning of their intellectual betters by people who can't get attention any other way.


Russell's work is in the public domain and we can all have views on it, surely? Dr Johnson's observation that we can recognise a well made table without being skilled in carpentry seems to apply?


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## Brahmsianhorn (Feb 17, 2017)

I don’t think self indulgence is about emotion. Toscanini for example could be very emotion. It’s more a question of discipline. You become self indulgent when you are so wrapped up in your thoughts that you lose touch with whether or not they make sense to anyone else.


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## Guest (Jul 27, 2019)

It is a fallacy that a performance which conveys emotion is performed by a performer experiencing emotion. It can be, but it is not a requirement. Generally, it is theater. If a 20 member violin section is executing a phrase with "emotion" it is because the conductor instructed them to play it that way.


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## joen_cph (Jan 17, 2010)

Like others, I haven't heard any poor or terrible Bernstein recordings, but I seem to agree with #4 in the sense that I skipped the LvB 9 symphonies with VPO.

And the list of good or interesting ones is very long.


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## larold (Jul 20, 2017)

Only thing I have of Bernstein's now is Berlioz's Harold In Italy with Donald MacInnes on the viola -- and most of the reason I have it is the coupling -- Respighi's Pines of Rome and Bach's Toccata and Fugue in D minor from Stokowski. I like the Berlioz too.

I won't say I dislike Bernstein but I haven't kept a single other recording of his I've ever owned. There have probably been a couple hundred of them.

The last thing of his I heard that I liked was a selection from Beethoven's Fidelio I heard on a New York Philharmonic broadcast on my local NPR station a few years back. When I looked at and listened to the recording it came from I didn't like it, though.

Some of the Bernstein recordings I recall enjoying most were:

-- Brahms Symphonies 2 and 3, New York
-- Schumann Symphonies 1-4, Vienna
-- Tchaikovsky Symphony 4, New York, 1958

I no longer have any of these, however, either because I no longer listen to the music or have other recordings I prefer. It's easier for me to recall the stuff I didn't like.

I thought all his Mahler way overdone for my liking, too slow, too monolithic, too everything, and it got worse in these regards the more times he recorded them. Same with that famous Shostakovich "Lenngrad" symphony everyone talks about. 

Last Stravinsky of his I owned was recorded so close is was insufferable. I had his Beethoven symphonies from Vienna and thought the musicmaking too fussy for me. I didn't care much for any of his highly-regarded recordings of American composers, either, almost always preferring one of Ormandy, Fennell or Hanson.

I understand his fame and know people that say they adore him but I guess he just isn't my guy. I tried him repeatedly over many decades in lots of different music and almost nothing stuck.


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## Brahmsianhorn (Feb 17, 2017)

Baron Scarpia said:


> It is a fallacy that a performance which conveys emotion is performed by a performer experiencing emotion. It can be, but it is not a requirement. Generally, it is theater. If a 20 member violin section is executing a phrase with "emotion" it is because the conductor instructed them to play it that way.


As a performer going on several decades I know for a fact this is 100% false


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## flamencosketches (Jan 4, 2019)

To those who have heard both... what do you think is the greater achievement: Bernstein's NYPO Mahler cycle for Columbia/Sony, or his later DG cycle? I have and love his earlier cycle (the NYPO/Sony), but lately I have been curious and sampling bits of the DG cycle and it sounds great too. Of course, this is probably the obsessive collector virus speaking to me, and a higher priority right now is getting other conductors' and orchestras' accounts of Mahler's symphonies. But I wonder if both cycles are worth having. 

Does anyone rate any of his DG Mahler recordings among his greatest recordings? Among his worst...?


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

Baron Scarpia said:


> It is a fallacy that a performance which conveys emotion is performed by a performer experiencing emotion. It can be, but it is not a requirement. Generally, it is theater. If a 20 member violin section is executing a phrase with "emotion" it is because the conductor instructed them to play it that way.


Hmmm....if a section plays with "emotion" it might be in spite of the conductor. professional musicians will play expressively because that is what they are paid to do. a conductor may inspire musicians, or he may stifle them as well.


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

flamencosketches said:


> To those who have heard both... what do you think is the greater achievement: Bernstein's NYPO Mahler cycle for Columbia/Sony, or his later DG cycle? I have and love his earlier cycle (the NYPO/Sony), but lately I have been curious and sampling bits of the DG cycle and it sounds great too. Of course, this is probably the obsessive collector virus speaking to me, and a higher priority right now is getting other conductors' and orchestras' accounts of Mahler's symphonies. But I wonder if both cycles are worth having.
> 
> Does anyone rate any of his DG Mahler recordings among his greatest recordings? Among his worst...?


his DG Mahler #3 with NYPO is very excellent...i prefer it to his earlier effort


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## Brahmsianhorn (Feb 17, 2017)

I am firmly in the DG camp, except for the 2nd and 3rd where I like the tauter playing of the earlier versions. The DG 1st, 5th, 6th, 7th, and 8th are among the best ever recorded. Most people seem to prefer the earlier 6 and 7, but the later versions for me find Lenny more unbridled. The DG 8th was taken from a live 70s Salzburg performance. To me this is an example where Lenny makes music where others try to achieve effects, namely Solti.


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## flamencosketches (Jan 4, 2019)

Brahmsianhorn said:


> I am firmly in the DG camp, except for the 2nd and 3rd where I like the tauter playing of the earlier versions. The DG 1st, 5th, 6th, 7th, and 8th are among the best ever recorded. Most people seem to prefer the earlier 6 and 7, but the later versions for me find Lenny more unbridled. The DG 8th was taken from a live 70s Salzburg performance. To me this is an example where Lenny makes music where others try to achieve effects, namely Solti.


So I take it you don't fall into the "Lenny's Mahler is over-the-top emotional/sentimental" camp...? This seems to be the major criticism of the DG recordings. I certainly don't fall into that camp either.


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

^ At least 5 and 6 among the DG recordings are great accounts (and greatly preferable to the good earlier NYPO recordings). I must try out the 8th. It is a work that you have to be in the mood for and, although I have it, I have only listened to it once.


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## Brahmsianhorn (Feb 17, 2017)

flamencosketches said:


> So I take it you don't fall into the "Lenny's Mahler is over-the-top emotional/sentimental" camp...? This seems to be the major criticism of the DG recordings. I certainly don't fall into that camp either.


Lol, I find much of his 60s Mahler to be tame compared to the likes of Horenstein, Barbirolli, Scherchen, and Mitropoulos. The people who give Bernstein flack for being over the top are usually fans of the modern clinical robot style.


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

^ I'm not sure I've come across a style that fits that description.


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## flamencosketches (Jan 4, 2019)

Enthusiast said:


> ^ I'm not sure I've come across a style that fits that description.


I can't say I have either. I don't think it's possible to play Mahler in a "clinical/robotic" manner, just given the nature of the music. A conductor would certainly have to deviate pretty far from the score in any case!


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

"clinical robot style" might be associated with conductors like Leinsdorf, or N. Jarvi, at least for me....pedestrian run-thrus.....


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## Brahmsianhorn (Feb 17, 2017)

Heck148 said:


> pedestrian run-thrus.....


That is what I was referring to. Of course everyone has a different definition of what constitutes a run through. In my experience the greater the variety to which I am exposed, the higher the bar goes. I am not a fan of simple, precise regurgitations of the score, no matter how well-played they are. Some people may be thrilled by orchestral brilliance and execution without anything added from the standpoint of interpretation. I am not, and I am 100% certain Mahler would not have either judging by the accounts of his conducting philosophy.


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

^ OK, yes, pedestrian run-throughs are terrible and can come on occasion from many conductors who are also, on a different day, capable of the miraculous. But I sense that you are suggesting that some "major Mahler conductors" routinely give us such uninspired work and, although there are some whose Mahler doesn't work well for me, I am wondering who you have in mind? Clearly (from what you have said earlier) the hyper-emotional ones are not guilty (I greatly like the ones you have named, too) but are you thinking Chailly? Or Abbado? Haitink? Boulez? Gielen? Jansons? Put is as "I hate pedestrian Mahler" and the whole world will agree. But it may or may not be that when you name some guilty parties that many will feel "oh he's not pedestrian at all - in fact, to me, his best work is deeply satisfying and filled with insight".


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## Brahmsianhorn (Feb 17, 2017)

Enthusiast said:


> but are you thinking Chailly? Or Abbado? Haitink? Boulez? Gielen? Jansons?


Yes, all of those, except maybe some Abbado

Some modern Mahler recordings that come to mind which I do NOT find pedestrian:

Rattle 2
Barenboim 7
Shipway 5


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

Brahmsianhorn said:


> I am not a fan of simple, precise regurgitations of the score, no matter how well-played they are.


same here....a mechanically, technically perfect rendition of a musical work that is devoid of expression has dubious musical value...a technically flawed performance, that is played with great expression may be of great musical value....for me, the ideal is a combination of both - superb technical performance combined with outstanding expressive content.


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## Brahmsianhorn (Feb 17, 2017)

Expressiveness is great, but the ultimate goal is a masterly understanding of the architecture, narrative, and flow of a work, so that the entire hour or so of the work's duration is captivating and engrossing as only the greatest conductors know how to do. That is the whole point of interpretation and why a mere technician cannot pass muster.

Incidentally, while Haitink is never revelatory, I do like a few of his recordings for their naturalness, even if they are never top choices. The key is always whether the impact of the score comes through and to what degree.


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## flamencosketches (Jan 4, 2019)

I can’t speak for his recordings of the symphonies, but Haitink’s Das Lied von der Erde (RCO, Baker, King) is excellent. I’ve heard very few, but it is my top choice. Certainly nothing pedestrian about it to my ears.


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

Brahmsianhorn said:


> Expressiveness is great, but the ultimate goal is a masterly understanding of the architecture, narrative, and flow of a work,


Yes, I'm using expressiveness in a quite broad definition - this includes not just the phrasing, and individual lines, but it also requires an understanding of the overall structure and dramatic flow of a work...the rising, falling action, the climaxes, the penultimate points, resolutions, etc, etc....this is where the conductor's input is most crucial.
you could have an extremely well-played rendition, where individual phrasing is very expressively done, but the whole performance lacks flow, direction, conclusion.


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## Brahmsianhorn (Feb 17, 2017)

Heck148 said:


> where individual phrasing is very expressively done, but the whole performance lacks flow, direction, conclusion.


And that describes, IMO, Bernstein's Brahms 3rd and Mozart Requiem. But then you come across his Mahler 6th, and it all works.


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## Merl (Jul 28, 2016)

Brahmsianhorn said:


> Yes, all of those, except maybe some Abbado
> 
> Some *modern Mahler recordings* that come to mind which I do NOT find pedestrian:
> 
> Rattle 2


Modern? That's 32 years old! :lol: This is the 21st century, Bhs.


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

Brahmsianhorn said:


> And that describes, IMO, Bernstein's Brahms 3rd and Mozart Requiem. But then you come across his Mahler 6th, and it all works.


Lenny got it right, much of the time....his Sibelius 5 is a perfect example....he's plugged right into the structure and the dramatic flow...


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## Brahmsianhorn (Feb 17, 2017)

Heck148 said:


> Lenny got it right, much of the time....his Sibelius 5 is a perfect example....he's plugged right into the structure and the dramatic flow...


Yup. That's why I listed it first in my OP.

For some reason I've never been crazy about his famous NYPO Rite of Spring. I don't know why. I like Dorati, Markevitch, Stravinsky, Boulez...but Bernstein's doesn't thrill me. Maybe it's not direct and to the point enough.


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

Brahmsianhorn said:


> For some reason I've never been crazy about his famous NYPO Rite of Spring. I don't know why..... Maybe it's not direct and to the point enough.


Hmm...it's probably the first "classical" concert music record I fell in love with....still rank it right up at the top - [with Solti, Boulez, Mehta] ....it's really violent and carnivorous, balls out, bells up, the NYPO wild men of the 1950s in full cry....supposedly, when they recorded it, Bernstein and CBS just pulled it out of the hat, the orchestra didn't know it was on the recording docket...they just tore into it...


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## Brahmsianhorn (Feb 17, 2017)

Heck148 said:


> Hmm...it's probably the first "classical" concert music record I fell in love with....still rank it right up at the top - [with Solti, Boulez, Mehta] ....it's really violent and carnivorous, balls out, bells up, the NYPO wild men of the 1950s in full cry....supposedly, when they recorded it, Bernstein and CBS just pulled it out of the hat, the orchestra didn't know it was on the recording docket...they just tore into it...


I hear all of that, and yet for some reason it doesn't affect me as much as it seems it should. Maybe it's that Bernstein's approach is just so naked and obvious that the feeling of anticipation of one phrase to the next isn't there for me. My favorite version is Stokowski/Phil '29. Now there I feel a real jolt with the mood shifts. It feels spontaneous, as if they are just discovering the music, which of course they were!


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

Brahmsianhorn said:


> Yes, all of those, except maybe some Abbado
> 
> Some modern Mahler recordings that come to mind which I do NOT find pedestrian:
> 
> ...


Thanks. Wow, you dismiss a lot that I certainly don't hear as pedestrian at all. And, where Jansons and Gielen at least are concerned, I can't even guess at where you are coming from. But taste is such a strange thing. I hadn't realised that Barenboim had done a Mahler 7 and will look that one out for a listen. Thank you for that recommendation. I know Shipway's 5. It is a good one but there are many for that symphony (some of which you seem to hear as pedestrian!). Rattle's 2 - do you mean the old CBSO one? If so it is one I struggled with for years (way back in the day when there were not so many to choose from) and never heard what the critics liked about it. I think it is one that I _would _call pedestrian, at least in comparison with the many amazing recordings available.


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## Dimace (Oct 19, 2018)

One very BAD recording, I can this moment remember, is* R. Strauss's Salome from 1947*, with Maria Cebotari as Salome and Marko Rothmüller as Jokanaan. (Vienna State Opera, Clemens Krauss) The crazy with this Live Performance is that ALL the participants are SUPER! (so said the history...) Despite this, the sound quality (Legato) is so awful, you can not listen more than 10 min. without the danger to lose your ears or to brake your expensive HIFI equipment. Yes it is an AAD, but such production is an offense to the listener.


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## Brahmsianhorn (Feb 17, 2017)

^
Is this a parody? Not sure if real. Needless to say, no one listens to 1947 recordings to enhance the enjoyment of their expensive hifi equipment. They listen for a window into great artists of the past.

Re Rattle's CBSO 2nd, it is not my favorite, but I can also see why the critics liked it. It is not what I would call pedestrian.


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

^ No, I was being genuine and (I thought) responsively friendly. Perhaps I am misunderstanding your post. Why a parody? Do you just not believe that some of us really rate the Mahler of Gielen and Jansons as highly as some of your older heroes (most of whom I also value very highly)? Surely, you have noticed that our tastes on this forum differ widely. I hadn't taken you for one who rejects others' tastes as unfounded or wrong (even if they are different from yours) but please forgive my interrupting you, if you are.


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## Brahmsianhorn (Feb 17, 2017)

Enthusiast said:


> ^ No, I was being genuine and (I thought) responsively friendly. Perhaps I am misunderstanding your post. Why a parody? Do you just not believe that some of us really rate the Mahler of Gielen and Jansons as highly as some of your older heroes (most of whom I also value very highly)? Surely, you have noticed that our tastes on this forum differ widely. I hadn't taken you for one who rejects others' tastes as unfounded or wrong (even if they are different from yours) but please forgive my interrupting you, if you are.


Wasn't responding to your post

I asked if it was a parody because who gets a historical recording and then complains how it sounds on his hifi system?


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

^ Ha. Fair enough .. but your post also included a response about Rattle's Mahler (which presumably was addressed to me). No worries.


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## Brahmsianhorn (Feb 17, 2017)

Enthusiast said:


> but your post also included a response about Rattle's Mahler (which presumably was addressed to me). No worries.


Yes, I was too lazy to make a second post responding to yours


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Woodduck said:


> Frankly I'm past wondering at the overt nonsense inherent in the maligning of their intellectual betters by people who can't get attention any other way.


Please speak for yourself!


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Enthusiast said:


> Russell's work is in the public domain and we can all have views on it, surely? Dr Johnson's observation that we can recognise a well made table without being skilled in carpentry seems to apply?


Exactly! And we should all be allowed views on it. Just like a Russell was allowed his views.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

DavidA said:


> Please speak for yourself!


I always do.

BTW, everyone else left Mr. Russell behind a week ago. May he rest in peace.


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## Brahmsianhorn (Feb 17, 2017)

Listened again to the Bernstein Rite today. Orchestra plays as if their lives depend on it. The acoustic is not great (wasn't it a hotel ballroom?). And I still find Bernstein's interpretation a little on the bland side, even though the execution is very committed and exciting.

By contrast, I also listened to the 1951 Monteux/BSO and was blown away, unexpectedly so as I had always heard this version is less than exciting. To the contrary, I thought Monteux knew exactly when and how to make the contrasts in a way I have not heard outside of Stokowski. Fitting perhaps as these were the first to record the piece along with the composer himself in 1929.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Brahmsianhorn said:


> Listened again to the Bernstein Rite today. Orchestra plays as if their lives depend on it. The acoustic is not great (wasn't it a hotel ballroom?). And I still find Bernstein's interpretation *a little on the bland side*, even though the execution is very committed and exciting.
> 
> By contrast, I also listened to the 1951 Monteux/BSO and was blown away, unexpectedly so as I had always heard this version is less than exciting. To the contrary, I thought Monteux knew exactly when and how to make the contrasts in a way I have not heard outside of Stokowski. Fitting perhaps as these were the first to record the piece along with the composer himself in 1929.


'a little on the bland side' with the orchestra playing is their lives depended on it. Isn't there a little hint of a contradiction here?


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## Brahmsianhorn (Feb 17, 2017)

DavidA said:


> 'a little on the bland side' with the orchestra playing is their lives depended on it. Isn't there a little hint of a contradiction here?


Not at all. Interpretation and execution are two entirely different things. In this case the conductor was exhorting the utmost commitment from his players. But the actual interpretive task - deciding how the work should go - was in my estimation not as revelatory as with others, including even IMO your beloved Karajan. I found Bernstein's interpretation rather straight-laced actually. But the orchestra sure did play lights out, and he gets credit for that.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Brahmsianhorn said:


> Not at all. Interpretation and execution are two entirely different things. In this case the conductor was exhorting the utmost commitment from his players. But the actual interpretive task - deciding how the work should go - was in my estimation not as revelatory as with others, including even IMO your beloved Karajan. I found Bernstein's interpretation rather straight-laced actually. But the orchestra sure did play lights out, and he gets credit for that.


You have tried to cover up your contradiction most cleverly but unsuccessfully. But how did Karajan suddenly get dragged into this? Or is it compulsory he makes an appearance?:lol:


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## Brahmsianhorn (Feb 17, 2017)

DavidA said:


> You have tried to cover up your contradiction most cleverly but unsuccessfully. But how did Karajan suddenly get dragged into this? Or is it compulsory he makes an appearance?:lol:


It was not a contradiction, and I explained it very well. I said exactly what I meant about Bernstein's Rite. What did you not understand?

I like Karajan's '76 interpretation. I thought it added something my appreciation of the score. Has nothing to do with whether or not the BPO played well, which they in fact did.


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

Brahmsianhorn said:


> ...And I still find Bernstein's interpretation a little on the bland side,


 amazing...."bland" is probably the last adjective I'd apply to Bernstein's NYPO "Le Sacre"...wild, free-wheeling, carnivorous - yes....bland?? not to me, no way...

Check out "Spring Rounds" 4 meas. after #53 [Dover score] - the descending 2 eighth note figure, which repeats 2x more - Bernstein draws that beat out, stretches it, with a huge, shmeary glissando into the big gong/timp/bass drum shots...it's wonderful - like some sort of primordial, savage, animal outcry....certainly not "bland"...

Lenny's pacing and sense of flow and drama are exquisite.


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## Brahmsianhorn (Feb 17, 2017)

^
Again, for some reason it just didn't do much for me and I've given it several spins. It certainly does not sound free-wheeling to me in the way that Stokowski '29 does. It sounds like everything has been carefully thought out.

In general with Lenny, I detect more spontanaeity in his later DG recordings.


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## flamencosketches (Jan 4, 2019)

Brahmsianhorn said:


> In general with Lenny, I detect more spontanaeity in his later DG recordings.


I wonder if you'll find many who agree with you here. From what I can tell, his DG recordings, especially with the Vienna Philharmonic, seem to be much more on the calculated side than do his NYPO Columbia recordings. Of course, I'm no expert and have not heard as much Bernstein as you have.


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## Brahmsianhorn (Feb 17, 2017)

flamencosketches said:


> I wonder if you'll find many who agree with you here. From what I can tell, his DG recordings, especially with the Vienna Philharmonic, seem to be much more on the calculated side than do his NYPO Columbia recordings. Of course, I'm no expert and have not heard as much Bernstein as you have.


What I hear is more conventionality in his younger days. He became more what people would call "self-indulgent" later on. He was willing to take greater departures from the norm, with mixed results.


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## 89Koechel (Nov 25, 2017)

Brahmsian - ("... more conventionality in his younger days.") - Um, maybe so, but that "conventionality" produced some GREAT results, from Copland, Roy Harris, Ives, Nielsen, etc. to Mahler, and others. He even succeeded as a composer, in "West Side Story" - to me, not a score of "conventionality" (except, maybe, in form), but one of remarkable improvisation, originality, and a "feel" (so to speak) for the spirit of ol' New York, at the time.


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

Brahmsianhorn said:


> ^
> Again, for some reason it just didn't do much for me and I've given it several spins. It certainly does not sound free-wheeling to me in the way that Stokowski '29 does. It sounds like everything has been carefully thought out.
> 
> In general with Lenny, I detect more spontanaeity in his later DG recordings.


Stoki's is a fine, well-played effort, but it's hardly free-wheeling....Stoki was not at all comfortable with asymmetric meters. he always struggled with them..he tended to just conduct in straight 4/4, and let the orchestra find their way thru.[Loren Glickman, NY Freelance bassoonist, contractor]....Bernstein was quite comfortable and loose with these rhythms...Monteux sounds meticulous and careful to me, very well conducted, playing not really first rate..stiff, reserved....


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

flamencosketches said:


> I wonder if you'll find many who agree with you here. From what I can tell, his DG recordings, especially with the Vienna Philharmonic, seem to be much more on the calculated side than do his NYPO Columbia recordings. Of course, I'm no expert and have not heard as much Bernstein as you have.


I find his DG VPO recordings more...self-indulgent....for lack of a better term....he seemed to get into some weird distortions, expansions in some [not all!!] of his later efforts. I generally prefer his earlier recordings...they're more spontaneous, more of the "wild man Lenny" mode.


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## Guest (Jul 31, 2019)

Heck148 said:


> Stoki's is a fine, well-played effort, but it's hardly free-wheeling....Stoki was not at all comfortable with asymmetric meters. he always struggled with them..he tended to just conduct in straight 4/4, and let the orchestra find their way thru.[Loren Glickman, NY Freelance bassoonist, contractor]....Bernstein was quite comfortable and loose with these rhythms...Monteux sounds meticulous and careful to me, very well conducted, playing not really first rate..stiff, reserved....


I'm not sure which Monteux recording you are referring to, I think there was more than one. I tend to like his Paris Conservatorie recording. He wasn't on board with the contest on who could make the 'Sacre' more brutal. There is some nicely colorful playing in his recording, even if it wasn't the most technically impressive.


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

with Monteux, the rhythmic accuracy and phrasing is always immaculate. he totally understood structure and musical flow...
i don't think I've ever heard a poorly conducted performance by Monteux.


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## Brahmsianhorn (Feb 17, 2017)

So I have been listening and comparing Rites the past few days. I listened to the Bernstein 4 times, determined to figure out what it is I am missing in a recording that has received so much adulation. To my surprise, the 4th time was the charm, and there is no doubt that listening to the CD on my stereo as opposed to with headphones or in the car made all the difference in the world. Details in the orchestral color and the full dynamic range came out, to the point where I found myself exclaiming "Wow!" as Stravinsky reportedly did. What previously seemed like a deliberate performance that didn't do anything interesting - it is less impulsive or elastic in terms of base tempo compared to many - seemed now like a well thought-out, powerful experience with a mix of nuance and thundering excitement. Bernstein was of course a rhythmic genius, and he was a master at the motor rhythms in the score.

So this now moves into my upper pantheon of Rites with Monteux '51, Stokowski '29, and both Dorati's (followed closely by Boulez '69, Stravinsky '60, and Markevitch '59).

I do wonder, my CD version is the Bernstein Royal Edition, which also contains his superb Petrushka. Is there a difference in the transfers? My previous hearings were an online version with a different cover. I'm asking because it sounded like a completely different recording on my stereo. Amazing dynamic range, presence, beauty and detail.

This is the online transfer I heard previously:


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## Brahmsianhorn (Feb 17, 2017)

A quick perusal on Amazon confirms that the online version I heard of Bernstein's Rite is indeed a recently remastered version. Listening to the previous Bernstein Royal Edition last night, I am reminded of the old adage, "If it ain't broke, don't fix it!"

The biggest thing that jumped out to me last night was that I at last heard a wide dynamic range, from the quietest piano to a sudden burst of sound.


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## flamencosketches (Jan 4, 2019)

Congratulations for being open minded. Some people will stick to their guns and miss out on great music as a result. I will have to check out that Bernstein recording.


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## Brahmsianhorn (Feb 17, 2017)

flamencosketches said:


> Congratulations for being open minded. Some people will stick to their guns and miss out on great music as a result. I will have to check out that Bernstein recording.


For me the whole point of discussion is to broaden my knowledge. Trying to "be right" is a useless endeavor.

But you can even see in my earlier posts I was actually frustrated at not understanding why I see nothing in this recording when so many swear by it. Finally had the "ah hah" moment last night, to my surprise!


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## Brahmsianhorn (Feb 17, 2017)

Lol, just listened again in my car at lunch and had the same flat response as before, that it’s a little lead footed and doesn’t excite me. No question that for me at least this recording needs to be heard on speakers where I can detect the details of sound quality and range.


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

Brahmsianhorn said:


> A quick perusal on Amazon confirms that the online version I heard of Bernstein's Rite is indeed a recently remastered version. Listening to the previous Bernstein Royal Edition last night, I am reminded of the old adage, "If it ain't broke, don't fix it!"
> 
> The biggest thing that jumped out to me last night was that I at last heard a wide dynamic range, from the quietest piano to a sudden burst of sound.


My CD version is the Royal Edition one...it has plenty of sonic wallop - plus, they edited out a mistake or two that existed on the LP - one obvious trumpet error in "Dancing Out of the Earth [final section of Part I] - the guy played on a rest....there's a horn clinker that got fixed as well.


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## flamencosketches (Jan 4, 2019)

These Beethoven recordings with the New York Philharmonic are just great. I'm just recovering from a long Beethoven hiatus in which I was so sick of his music I didn't want to hear any of it, especially the symphonies and the 5th most of all. I'm listening to the 5th on this disc now and I have to say, this is a wonderful version. Despite the somewhat slow first movement (not too below average, I just prefer faster), Bernstein injects a lot of life into this music. The pulse may not be as even as, say, Karajan, but Lenny's sense of pacing here is brilliant. I think this CD would make for an excellent introduction to Beethoven for someone very new to classical music. I may even have to find a friend to give this to as a gift, for that reason. (The 4th symphony here is equally monumental). I definitely must hear more of Lenny's Beethoven. I'm going to sample both more of the NYPO/Sony cycle as well as the controversial Vienna Philharmonic cycle on DG.

I can feel a serious Bernstein kick coming on. I just picked up another CD of his today, the "Bernstein Century" with Copland's Appalachian Spring. This might be the first time I've bought a disc of Copland's music. I am not a fan of his, but I trust Bernstein with his music.

Just wanted to bump this great thread for the edification of anyone who may have missed it before, and to share my enthusiasm for this CD.

One last nomination for the "greatest" pile:









A riveting performance of the Kindertotenlieder. Probably my favorite.


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