# Notating works.



## MarkW (Feb 16, 2015)

I have significant shortcomings as a CM appreciator. I don't play an instrument and can't read music to save my life. Given a score of a piece I know well, I can follow along without getting lost too many times, but give me a few measures of something I didn't already know, and I couldn't hum it at all recognizably. My only redeeming quality is a good ear.

Which is a way of introducing what to me is an intriguing topic: Writing music. I can more easily imagine someone musical composing -- but the act of that person writing it down astounds me. Is it second nature to a musical person? Or is it tedious? For instance, I think of initially writing down the Hammerklavier Sonata, to pick an extreme example. I know Beethoven took a scattered approach to composing, and spent a comparatively long time on his Late works, but I envision taking a month or more to write it down. But say, the "Appassionata" from his much more prolific Middle years. That's still a helluva lot of notes. How do composers do that without going crazy? Am I over-reacting?


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## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

I remember hearing on Sirius Radio about a sonata Beethoven wrote, not one of his most popular ones. They said he sketched it for 2 years. He wrote the rhythms first, and settled on pitches later. But I recall he was working also on other stuff in the meantime. Ravel admitted he found composing painful, and saying he composed drop by drop, and later found no joy in it. I wish I could find half the sources for stuff I've read and link it.


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## Allegro Con Brio (Jan 3, 2020)

I've always felt the same, and similarly too for all writers before typewriters. Tolstoy writing all 1,300 pages of _War and Peace_ by hand. Incredible.


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## SONNET CLV (May 31, 2014)

MarkW said:


> I have significant shortcomings as a CM appreciator. I don't play an instrument and can't read music to save my life. Given a score of a piece I know well, I can follow along without getting lost too many times, but give me a few measures of something I didn't already know, and I couldn't hum it at all recognizably. My only redeeming quality is a good ear.
> 
> ...


First of all, I'm sorry you have but one good ear. I can only imagine how redeeming you would be with two good ears. Alas …

Scribbling down notes can certainly be taxing. Of course, most of the "original scores" I've seen don't look quite like the well-printed published scores we're used to. I often wonder how anyone read the notes on those Beethoven manuscripts. Some composers did much better for clarity, certainly.

I once heard Itzhak Perlman remark (not directly to me, of course, but on a television interview) that Mozart wrote music "the way you or I would write a letter." Meaning, quickly and effortlessly.

I still suspect there was some chore element involved. I surmise that a lot of those running scales are a pain to notate. But you can try this: pick a piece of music that has a lot of notes and attempt, with the help of a piece of plain score paper, to duplicate the notation for a page or two, just to see how it feels. It may well make you appreciate composers more for the actual physical labor they put into their music. If you really want a challenge, take on a large symphony or opera someday; try notating that some afternoon when you feel particularly bored. You may well welcome the boredom.

Of course today there are several fine computer software programs for notation, vehicles such as Finale, Encore, and Sibelius. I've enjoyed using all three of these. It's especially fun when you can simply play your instrument into the machine and the notation for what you play pops up on a score sheet ready to print out. Schubert should have had such a tool.

I once read somewhere that someone did a study of Schubert's musical oeuvre and found it rather miraculous that the man could have actually written all of that music (jotting down notes on paper with a quill ink pen) in the short time of his life from when he began seriously composing till his early death, and had time at all to eat, sleep, or play music. This researcher had apparently computed the amount of real time it would take to complete all of Schubert's scores by hand and found it nearly equaled all of the time of the man's life. What most amazed this researcher though, was not that Schubert was actually capable of this particular miracle, but that nearly everything that the man did notate is a masterpiece!

I look over a booklet filled with Schubert's piano sonatas and am amazed that anyone could have hand notated all of that music. I suspect that most composer have strong hands, derived either from their instrumental playing or their score notating. Either way, the thought alone makes my own hand start to ache.


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## janxharris (May 24, 2010)

Phil loves classical said:


> I remember hearing on Sirius Radio about a sonata Beethoven wrote, not one of his most popular ones. They said he sketched it for 2 years. He wrote the rhythms first, and settled on pitches later. But I recall he was working also on other stuff in the meantime. Ravel admitted he found composing painful, and saying he composed drop by drop, and later found no joy in it. I wish I could find half the sources for stuff I've read and link it.


Ravel on the second movement of his Piano Concert in G major:

_"That flowing phrase! How I worked over it bar by bar! It nearly killed me!"_


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## Oldhoosierdude (May 29, 2016)

MarkW said:


> I have significant shortcomings as a CM appreciator. I don't play an instrument and can't read music to save my life. Given a score of a piece I know well, I can follow along without getting lost too many times, but give me a few measures of something I didn't already know, and I couldn't hum it at all recognizably. My only redeeming quality is a good ear.
> 
> Which is a way of introducing what to me is an intriguing topic: Writing music. I can more easily imagine someone musical composing -- but the act of that person writing it down astounds me. Is it second nature to a musical person? Or is it tedious? For instance, I think of initially writing down the Hammerklavier Sonata, to pick an extreme example. I know Beethoven took a scattered approach to composing, and spent a comparatively long time on his Late works, but I envision taking a month or more to write it down. But say, the "Appassionata" from his much more prolific Middle years. That's still a helluva lot of notes. How do composers do that without going crazy? Am I over-reacting?


Music writing amazes me also. The detail and technical skill is astound to me. I can't read music either and can't follow a score.

I write fiction and that seems like child's play compared to the enormity of music writing. I can say for me with fiction, it's the rewrite over and over that is so time consuming.


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## Fabulin (Jun 10, 2019)

"Very difficult, just in logistical terms"---John Williams, 1999

And that already assumes that one slams the dots and lines as quickly as possible, aesthetics be damned


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## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

Writing music is tedious. You can imagine in your head all these great ideas - then you're faced with actually having to write it down - sometimes that stops you cold. I find it challenging enough to write a work for orchestra that is only 3 to 5 minutes. I can imagine the daunting task of writing a 50 minute symphony or a 3 hour opera. It's very hard work - mentally and physically. Those few composers who could write at high speed (Mozart, Schubert, Bach, Mendelssohn, Raff) are to be respected. Of course in those days they didn't have to drive to work or watch Tiger King.

I use Finale, but I still do sketches and a short score with paper and pencil. The software is a godsend when it comes to the parts - that used to be the most horrible part of writing music. The chances of errors creeping in when you copied from the score to the part is very high. More than one work was sabotaged by badly copied parts. I do use a piano-like keyboard to input notes and that saves a lot of time, but even then there can be so much manual correcting if the rhythmic quantization is off even a bit. Writing music is not for the lazy or unmotivated. It's hard!


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## SONNET CLV (May 31, 2014)

mbhaub said:


> Writing music is tedious. You can imagine in your head all these great ideas - then you're faced with actually having to write it down - sometimes that stops you cold. …
> ... Writing music is not for the lazy or unmotivated. It's hard!


As a playwright I know that I've thrown away many more pages than I ever kept. Fortunately I've worked with a typewriter and later a computer word processor keyboard to put down my words. But the waste can would continually fill during a writing project. I suspect that composers threw away pages as well, which suggests that the music writing process is even more painful than we generally imagine it is. Imagine just having jotted down a series of scales, such as Tchaikovsky has in the third movement of his Sixth Symphony, and then discovering you've made a grave error on the page or simply had a new idea that needed inserted …. How many times did some of those great pages of music get revised before they were ready for the publisher/printer/performer?


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## MarkW (Feb 16, 2015)

SONNET CLV said:


> As a playwright I know that I've thrown away many more pages than I ever kept. Fortunately I've worked with a typewriter and later a computer word processor keyboard to put down my words. But the waste can would continually fill during a writing project. I suspect that composers threw away pages as well, which suggests that the music writing process is even more painful than we generally imagine it is. Imagine just having jotted down a series of scales, such as Tchaikovsky has in the third movement of his Sixth Symphony, and then discovering you've made a grave error on the page or simply had a new idea that needed inserted …. How many times did some of those great pages of music get revised before they were ready for the publisher/printer/performer?


I always found that learning to write on the typewriter back in the bad old days, aided my subsequent writing ability immensely. You had to be sure when you began a sentence where it was going -- because if it went bad halfway through, you had to pull the page out and retype from the beginning. People who learned on word processors/computers have it too easy!

(Many years ago, with the newly widespread use of PCs, the student newspaper of a college I worked for surveyed the faculty and asked if student papers were any better now. The consensus was that they weren't generally better, but they were longer! )


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## mikeh375 (Sep 7, 2017)

mbhaub said:


> ................. Writing music is not for the lazy or unmotivated. It's hard!


Amen to that mbhaub.
My last 2 pieces are 35mins and 31 mins in duration and the one I'm on now will come in around 25mins. I tend to do Sibelius work on a laptop with a touch screen and pen whilst slumming in the lounge. It's even more hard work if you are programming the piece with samples.


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## larold (Jul 20, 2017)

I was a writer most of my working years and wrote non-fiction that would for the most part be classified as technical writing. I also wrote and edited newsletters for government agencies and wrote ad copy for a daily newspaper. In college I had several beat reporter jobs in news and sports.

I've never composed music but there is crossover between the disciplines based on people I know that compose music. In my case I liked to compose the piece in my head first, or at least sketch the major details, and then translate it to a product.

The art of writing, however (and I suppose composing music) is rewriting. No first draft is ever ready for publication. It has to be the same with music.

Next time you watch "Amadeus" pay attention to the end where Wolfgang is dying and reciting pieces of the Requiem.


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## Luchesi (Mar 15, 2013)

I think that from a young age it helps so much if you were fascinated with arithmetic. Just integer relationships.

Are you riveted by 111,111,111 times 111,111,111 equals 12,345,678,987,654,321?

There are so many repeating groupings of notes in older music especially, and it's easy to reduce a score to something very manageable (melody and chords), and then you go back and arrange it so that it further sounds fluid to fit the emotion you're searching for. 'Very abstract, I know..


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## Ethereality (Apr 6, 2019)

Luchesi said:


> Are you riveted by 111,111,111 times 111,111,111 equals 12,345,678,987,654,321?


Hmm







I call it 111,111,111². It expands 111,111,111 into 2 modes with 1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1 harmonic variations on the scale sequence 12,345,678,987,654,321.

Lol.


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## Luchesi (Mar 15, 2013)

Ethereality said:


> Hmm
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks for inputting that. Arcane, and I hope you're not scaring away a young, budding composer. lol


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## Ethereality (Apr 6, 2019)

As long as you know it was just a joke. The mods have issued me a warning for posting that.


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

mikeh375 said:


> Amen to that mbhaub.
> My last 2 pieces are 35mins and 31 mins in duration and the one I'm on now will come in around 25mins. I tend to do Sibelius work on a laptop with a touch screen and pen whilst slumming in the lounge. It's even more hard work if you are programming the piece with samples.


The actual composing of a work is hard enough, but then there is the writing out of individual parts - which is a major, and potentially disastrous component of the whole process - at least it has been in the past. I've not used them, but computer programs must help a great deal.

While at school, I used to play in Sam Adler's orchestration classes for his composition students...these took place about once a month or so, and it gave the composition students a chance to hear their works in actual rehearsal/workshop format. We got paid a session fee for each orchestration class, which came in handy.

Adler's rules, however, were most strict -because he wanted to make a point with his students - accurate, correct orchestra parts were mandatory, but these were often frantically scribbled out at all hours of the preceding night/morning....with that in mind - the musicians performing the works were instructed to play EXACTLY what was written!! no corrections, even if there were obvious mistakes....accidentals, cancelled, or added, were a constant source of error....if it was obvious that the C was supposed to be C#, we were to play C as written, even tho we knew it was a mistake. incorrect number of beats per measure, wrong note values, etc. Adler delivered blistering rebukes to his students when obvious sloppy errors were exposed....
Extreme ranges were also encountered, and we were instructed to play exactly as written, regardless of playability - just do our best....
this resulted in some pretty funny scenes - for the bassoons, we might be frantically sticking paper cones in the bell to produce low As [or lower] - or screeching around in the stratosphere high Es, Fs etc....One time a guy wrote this insane high range lick for bassoons - chromatic passage, all up around screech G - G# -F# [top of treble staff] - rapid, chromatic !! My section partner and I simply took the reeds off the bocal and screamed out the ptiches [or something approximating them] on just the naked bassoon reed!! [Like P. Schickele's "LipMy Reeds"] - a raucous, crowing screech.......naturally, everybody was LTAO!! :lol::lol:
Adler gave us an "attaboy" for effort :tiphat: - then proceeded to rip the unfortunate student a new one...

Sam's whole point was to make sure his students presented accurate, playable parts to the orchestra...if parts are filled with errors at a professional orchestra rehearsal, the whole project may be scrapped - conductors are always battling the clock with rehearsal - they have "x" amount of time, and 3x, 4x amount of things to accomplish in that time....they simply haven't the time to sort out if the composer meant C or C#....if the 2nd violin part has only 3 1/2 beats in a 4/4 measure, if the oboes were really supposed to read alto clef, etc...it is difficult enough to get an orchestra to perform new works, it is disaster for the composer to present badly prepared, inaccurate parts filled with mistakes...the conductor will quickly lose patience, and the musicians will think the composer is a complete idiot. 
Therefore, Adler insisted that his reading session musicians play exactly what was written - it was a rather dramatic demonstration of what could go wrong if parts were not properly prepared...He didn't want his students going in front of the Philadelphia Orchestra with sloppy parts, loaded with errors....


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## Tallisman (May 7, 2017)

A lot of it comes from ear training. A lot of composition schools will drill you with a lot of intense solfege (especially in the old days), which would increase your ability to 'audiate'. Say a composer has a melody in their head they want to write down. If they don't have perfect pitch they may play the first note at the piano or another instrument, which gives them an initial reference, but with a highly trained ear, they would be able to know which intervals would follow and what such an interval would look like on the staff, and eventually this would be developed to such a high degree that they could translate fluently what they hear inside onto the paper. 

It probably also helps if you sight-read a LOT and have played a lot of music. They call it 'ear training' but it's really just brain training. Your ear doesn't somehow become better, it's just your brain's ability to audiate and to classify musical information becomes more refined.


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## mikeh375 (Sep 7, 2017)

Heck148 said:


> The actual composing of a work is hard enough, but then there is the writing out of individual parts - which is a major, and potentially disastrous component of the whole process - at least it has been in the past. I've not used them, but computer programs must help a great deal.
> 
> While at school, I used to play in Sam Adler's orchestration classes for his composition students...these took place about once a month or so, and it gave the composition students a chance to hear their works in actual rehearsal/workshop format. We got paid a session fee for each orchestration class, which came in handy.
> 
> ...


 A great way to learn, I had similar experiences at my Alma Mater. Professionally, I witnessed out of range notes during a session I was sitting in on and funnily enough, they where for the bassoon too. The composer was clueless and said that he could play the note on his keyboard and didn't understand why a low g wasn't playable. Unfortunately Adler's pedagogy is entirely absent when it comes to many computer composers. Samples are often "mapped" on the keyboard beyond practicality suggesting their use.
I never had a note queried in a session thanks to diligence, although once, we spent 5 minutes trying to decide how best to bow a phrase as my suggestion was not optimal for the expression. When the clock's ticking, there is no better preparation than Adler's approach because one is soon found out.

I must listen to some of Adler's music, I know his orchestration book almost inside out, including the CD's but not his work.


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## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

Tallisman said:


> A lot of it comes from ear training. A lot of composition schools will drill you with a lot of intense solfege (*especially in the old days*), which would increase your ability to 'audiate'.


That's truth! I have a nephew who decided as a senior in high school he wants to be a music teacher - never took private lessons, can't play piano, knows zilch about the standard repertoire - and doesn't care. His "ear training" is on a computer and it seems worthless. He can't look at a simple song and sing a tune or even tell if someone playing it is doing it correctly. His ability to read rhythms is stunningly bad. He has never had to analyze chords in a Bach chorale. And from a major university! I fear for his future students. But then as he says, he wants to teach music that matters: jazz, rock n roll, rap...


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

mikeh375 said:


> ...Unfortunately Adler's pedagogy is entirely absent when it comes to many computer composers. Samples are often "mapped" on the keyboard beyond practicality suggesting their use....... When the clock's ticking, there is no better preparation than Adler's approach because one is soon found out.


yes, it is unfortunate - as you say, when the clock is ticking, there simply isn't time to address basic mundane errors in scoring, or part copying....I've seen conductors just scrap the whole project on the spot when time-consuming errors of ignorance and sloppiness were constantly exposed.



> I must listen to some of Adler's music, I know his orchestration book almost inside out, including the CD's but not his work.


He's written some good music - we played lots of it, and he often conducted...good conductor, overall...a performance I emember especially was Beethoven Sym#5, which Adler conducted - it was some sort of protest concert given as opposition to the Vietnam fiasco, iirc...anyway - Sam conducted very much from a "composer's viewpoint" - he didn't concern himself with bowings, articulation, tone quality, etc - that he left to the musicians - he was most interested in highlighting various facets of the score, which was most illuminating - certain structural features, harmonic features - esp some dissonances, which he wanted brought out strongly...it was memorable, he really made sense of it as a composition...great orchestra, RochesterPO people, the best students, etc...


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

mbhaub said:


> His ability to read rhythms is stunningly bad. He has never had to analyze chords in a Bach chorale. And from a major university! I fear for his future students. But then as he says, he wants to teach music that matters: jazz, rock n roll, rap...


Had similar experience with an ex-boyfriend of my oldest daughter - wanted to be a rock star/session player on guitar - but totally devoid of any training or experience...nice guy, but never went anywhere, tho I hear he still f*rts around in music....many of these poor kids have no clue whatsoever regarding the demands, and qualifications required for a professional career...the professional session guys are top-notch, great players, great readers, great "fakers" [that's a compliment!!]....When I was in school, there were some amazing musicians who went on to stellar careers - Steve Gadd, Tony Levin, Chris Vadala, Gerry Niewood, etc....they could do it all....
I remember playing for touring musicials, dance companies, musicial reviews, etc, that were on the road. These were union gigs, and local musicians were hired to fill out the ensemble....once, the contractor screwed up, hired some guitarists, and a drummer, none of whom could read music!! they were rock musicians, who learned everything by rote....they were summarily fired from the job....ugly scene, for sure....


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