# Is there beauty in the ballets of Tchaikovsky?



## Xisten267 (Sep 2, 2018)

So, apart from enjoying the ballets of Tchaikovsky or not, or thinking that they are "great" or not, would you consider appropriate to associate words such as "beauty" and "beautiful" to them?

I'll let the definition of the word "beauty" to each member.


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## science (Oct 14, 2010)

I'd probably consider it appropriate to associate the word "beauty" with almost anything that isn't viscerally disgusting.


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## Ethereality (Apr 6, 2019)

I tend to delineate common composer strategies like these more strictly.

Bach, Brahms = Beautiful/Proportionate
Tchaikovsky = Emotional
Debussy, Ravel = Arousing
Mozart, Beethoven, Mahler = Diffusing/Relieving
Rimsky-Korsakov, Borodin = Ethereal

But whether there is beauty in Tchaikovsky: sure.


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## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

What a question. The score - all two and a half hours - is chock full of beautiful melodies, luscious harmonies, ear-tingling scoring. And when needed, some intentional ugliness for the witch.


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## Xisten267 (Sep 2, 2018)

Ethereality said:


> I tend to delineate common terms like these more strictly.
> 
> Bach, Brahms = Beautiful/Proportionate
> Tchaikovsky = Emotional
> ...


I like to see people talking about the musicians they enjoy, to me nobody knows better the interesting sensations that a composer's oeuvre can produce than a fan of such composer. So, considering this and that you're an ardent admirer of Nobuo Uematsu, I would like to ask, out of genuine curiosity: which qualitative terms would you use to describe his music?


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## Ethereality (Apr 6, 2019)

Uematsu = Charming


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## Roger Knox (Jul 19, 2017)

I think we're extraordinarily lucky to have the three beautiful ballet scores of Tchaikovsky. 

He brought his best dramatic romantic manner to Swan Lake. By the time he composed The Sleeping Beauty he could use for it his nineteenth century neoclassical style, which had been developed in such delightful works as the Variations on a Rococo Theme for Cello and Orchestra and the Serenade for Strings (later memorably choreographed by Balanchine). And from his prolific career he brought to The Nutcracker all the melodic and orchestral mastery one could wish for. 

Each work has its distinctive moods and style yet is recognizably Tchaikovsky. The beauty seems miraculous, yet behind it was a tremendous amount of work and sometimes bitter experience.


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## Sumantra (Feb 1, 2018)

Is there any doubt about that?


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## science (Oct 14, 2010)

Sumantra said:


> Is there any doubt about that?


I suspect we are participating in a thread that has a hidden agenda.


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## Rogerx (Apr 27, 2018)

I like them, do you like them also yourself? I prefer the Bonynge and Previn recordings .


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## Ethereality (Apr 6, 2019)

Ooh, can this be like a detective mystery game? I roleclaim as one of the suspects.


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## Roger Knox (Jul 19, 2017)

science said:


> I suspect we are participating in a thread that has a hidden agenda.


On no, something to do with the Black Swan?


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## JTS (Sep 26, 2021)

Anyone who can’t see a beauty in the ballets of Tchaikovsky must have a very strange idea of beauty. Perhaps they think that the Tate modern building is beautiful


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## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

There is Beauty but she is sleeping. 

Probably sedated for the brain scans.


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## Animal the Drummer (Nov 14, 2015)

There are a fair few composers whose music I would be more likely to listen to, but could anyone seriously answer this question in the negative?


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## joen_cph (Jan 17, 2010)

Kreisler jr said:


> There is Beauty but she is sleeping.
> (...)


Indeed, and she can be made to wake op. However, the word play works in English, French, Italian and Spanish, but not all languages (Dornröschen, Tornerose, Torneros, Doornroosje, Frumaosa etc.).


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## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

Believe it or not, I at first wanted to make a pun along these lines but I checked this and both the Russian and French titles that seem the most commonly used (and of course English) are literally "Sleeping Beauty", I abolished the idea.


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## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

I voted "I don't know". I guess we need mobile brain scanners for the dancers to make sure. I am pretty confident that I will not get a result if I put the score into an NMR scanner.


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## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

Animal the Drummer said:


> There are a fair few composers whose music I would be more likely to listen to, but could anyone seriously answer this question in the negative?


Pierre Boulez would have. Elliot Carter likely.


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## SONNET CLV (May 31, 2014)

I, of course, being a fan of death-metal/doom-drone/punk rock gothic/industrial anti-art dadaist/country music-hip-hop noise ballets (such as the classics _The Headcrackers_, _Swan Sewer_, and _Sleeping Ugly_) find nothing remotely "beautiful" in anything by Tchaikovsky ... which explains full well, I suspect, why no one has ever heard of Tchaikovsky or his ballets or ever has danced to them or watched them danced to or listened to suites comprised of their music, and, more profoundly, why no one has ever come up with a thread titled "Poll: Is there beauty in the ballets of Tchaikovsky?" at any time previously on the Talk Classical Forum. Why question the obvious?


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

There's beauty in Tchaikovsky ballets just as there is nutrition in cotton candy.


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## eljr (Aug 8, 2015)

science said:


> I suspect we are participating in a thread that has a hidden agenda.


We are. (as you know) The foolhardiness of the endeavor is rather revealing.


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## eljr (Aug 8, 2015)

Animal the Drummer said:


> There are a fair few composers whose music I would be more likely to listen to, but could anyone seriously answer this question in the negative?


Of course not, that is part of the game!


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## eljr (Aug 8, 2015)

Kreisler jr said:


> I voted "I don't know". I guess we need mobile brain scanners for the dancers to make sure. I am pretty confident that I will not get a result if I put the score into an NMR scanner.


Such a disdain for science here on a friendly music appreciation thread.


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## JTS (Sep 26, 2021)

mbhaub said:


> Pierre Boulez would have. Elliot Carter likely.


That is why sensible people will answer in the positive


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## joen_cph (Jan 17, 2010)

If you take the Nutcracker, I somehow feel there are some quasi-modernistic aspects pointing to later developments, say in Ravel, Stravinsky and the 1920s. Like in Saint-Saens Carnival: a 'mechanical' element, snapshot episodes, satire-like animal figures, varied/unconventional instrumentation etc. 

But it's not the prevailing Tchaikovsky view, probably.


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## fluteman (Dec 7, 2015)

Xisten267 said:


> So, apart from enjoying the ballets of Tchaikovsky or not, or thinking that they are "great" or not, would you consider appropriate to associate words such as "beauty" and "beautiful" to them?
> 
> I'll let the definition of the word "beauty" to each member.


Here's an especially beautiful version of Swan Lake:


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## SONNET CLV (May 31, 2014)

fluteman said:


> Here's an especially beautiful version of Swan Lake:


Hey guys! You're going to give metal a bad name, playing that ugly Tchaikovsky stuff. Swan droppings, all of it!


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## eljr (Aug 8, 2015)

fluteman said:


> Here's an especially beautiful version of Swan Lake:


Beautiful!

:tiphat:


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## Rogerx (Apr 27, 2018)

eljr said:


> Beautiful!
> 
> :tiphat:


Entertaining, I must say :lol:


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

SONNET CLV said:


> I...find nothing remotely "beautiful" in anything by Tchaikovsky ... which explains full well, I suspect, why no one has ever heard of Tchaikovsky or his ballets or ever has danced to them or watched them danced to or listened to suites comprised of their music, and, more profoundly, why no one has ever come up with a thread titled "Poll: Is there beauty in the ballets of Tchaikovsky?" at any time previously on the Talk Classical Forum.


I'm sure you are entirely right, and can only remark that I have spent many hours never having heard of Tchaikovsky or his ballets, and never having listened to them or seen them danced. I can only imagine that they are overflowing with completely forgettable melodies and incompetent orchestration, and I would guess that no respectable dance company would touch them with a ten foot pole, especially around Christmas, when they would undoubtedly ruin the company financially and spoil the holiday season for everyone else. Besides, who would want to hear anything but Carter, Babbitt or Wuorinen while the kids open their presents?


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## science (Oct 14, 2010)

Woodduck said:


> I'm sure you are entirely right, and can only remark that I have spent many hours never having heard of Tchaikovsky or his ballets, and never having listened to them or seen them danced. I can only imagine that they are overflowing with completely forgettable melodies and incompetent orchestration, and I would guess that no respectable dance company would touch them with a ten foot pole, especially around Christmas, when they would undoubtedly ruin the company financially and spoil the holiday season for everyone else. Besides, who would want to hear anything but Carter, Babbitt or Wuorinen while the kids open their presents?


Accompanying capitalist holiday rituals is the gold-standard of musical excellence.


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## tdc (Jan 17, 2011)

I think the answer is yes, but in places almost to the point of kitsch. I think maybe even Tchaikovsky thought so, at least in regards to _The Nutcracker_.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

science said:


> Accompanying capitalist holiday rituals is the gold-standard of musical excellence.


Sarcasm aside, Tchaikovsky's magical _Nutcracker_ was one of the few things that made Christmas tolerable for me, back when I could tolerate it at all.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

Woodduck said:


> Sarcasm aside, Tchaikovsky's magical _Nutcracker_ was one of the few things that made Christmas tolerable for me, back when I could tolerate it at all.


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## science (Oct 14, 2010)

Woodduck said:


> Sarcasm aside, Tchaikovsky's magical _Nutcracker_ was one of the few things that made Christmas tolerable for me, back when I could tolerate it at all.


I used to have annual discussions with my wife about whether Bach's Christmas Oratorio counted as holiday music. I promised her that she just needed time to build up an association between that music and the season, but I found out that I just needed a little extra rum in the eggnog.


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## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

science said:


> I just needed a little extra rum in the eggnog.


I prefer Maker's Mark in my eggnog, especially when I'm playing those insipid Christmas arrangements for the umpteenth time. Ho ho ho!


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## Ethereality (Apr 6, 2019)

I couldn't for the life of me put Tchaikovsky above someone like John Williams. Though I couldn't do that with Brahms or Schubert etc.


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## joen_cph (Jan 17, 2010)

It would be interesting to see, if you also hold that view in say 10 years from now ...


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## Ethereality (Apr 6, 2019)

Interestingly the first time I proclaimed this was 10 years ago... not sure why I remember that.

As a composer myself though I can't be objective. I have to like what I lack even though I may be better than them. It's probably a great skill their understanding of the more humanistic structures of incidental music, lucky to have all that experience.

Not like Williams' music is more complex than Tchaikovsky's or anything, like how Handel's is not that complex.

And I really hate film music. Except for Williams, Hisaishi and a few scores.


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## joen_cph (Jan 17, 2010)

Then it might be a rather stable priority.


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## Ethereality (Apr 6, 2019)

. .


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## tterrace (Nov 25, 2013)

Flawed poll. Missing fourth option:


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## eljr (Aug 8, 2015)

Woodduck said:


> Sarcasm aside, Tchaikovsky's magical _Nutcracker_ was one of the few things that made Christmas tolerable for me, back when I could tolerate it at all.


Would you like to talk about it? Feel free to PM me.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

eljr said:


> Would you like to talk about it? Feel free to PM me.


To discuss the beauty of Tchaikovsky's ballets in the context of Christmas with the mindset of _Cartesian rationalism_? You can do it publicly.



tterrace said:


> Flawed poll. Missing fourth option:


there could have been one more in addition to that, actually
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/O_RLY?


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## Rogerx (Apr 27, 2018)

tterrace said:


> Flawed poll. Missing fourth option:
> 
> View attachment 161199


Post of the day.:lol:


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## Xisten267 (Sep 2, 2018)

tterrace said:


> Flawed poll. Missing fourth option:
> 
> View attachment 161199


You're right, haha .

"Beauty" can, of course, be related to the Tchaikovsky ballets, it's one of the main qualities of them. Only a minority of people can't understand that.


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

Xisten267 said:


> You're right, haha .
> 
> "Beauty" can, of course, be related to the Tchaikovsky ballets, it's one of the main qualities of them. Only a minority of people can't understand that.


It's not that we don't "understand" the results of your poll. It's that we don't even look for beauty in Tchaikovsky or any other composer. We look for other things. Things that we think are more substantial and important than mere beauty which one can find in the music track to a Hallmark card commercial.

And, of course, also Tchaikovsky, for what it's worth.


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## Xisten267 (Sep 2, 2018)

SanAntone said:


> It's not that we don't "understand" the results of your poll. It's that we don't even look for beauty in Tchaikovsky or any other composer. We look for other things. Things that we think are more substantial and important than mere beauty which one can find in the music track to a Hallmark card commercial.
> 
> And, of course, also Tchaikovsky, for what it's worth.


The point has never been if you like Tchaikovsky or not, but if the word "beauty" could be used to describe his ballets. Look at post #1:



Xisten267 said:


> So, apart from enjoying the ballets of Tchaikovsky or not, or thinking that they are "great" or not, would you consider appropriate to associate words such as "beauty" and "beautiful" to them?


About 15% of the voters so far said that either there's no beauty in the ballets of Tchaikovsky or that they didn't know. I think that they are exceptions to the rule because they may be somewhat "blind" to the feeling of "beauty" in music. Most of us agree that "beauty" can be found in the three ballets, and this is so obvious to some people that they even make jokes about it.


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

Xisten267 said:


> The point has never been if you like Tchaikovsky or not, but if the word "beauty" could be used to describe his ballets. Look at post #1:
> 
> About 15% of the voters so far said that either there's no beauty in the ballets of Tchaikovsky or that they didn't know. I think that they are exceptions to the rule because they may be somewhat "blind" to the feeling of "beauty" in music. Most of us agree that "beauty" can be found in the three ballets, and this is so obvious to some people that they even make jokes about it.


My question to you is, "why is this question worth asking?" Of course a majority of people will agree that they think his ballets are beautiful (there's not much else there). But so what? Since when are superficial qualities like beauty something to focus on?

Why don't you have as your next poll, "Is candy sweet?" That question has the same amount of importance as this one.


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## Xisten267 (Sep 2, 2018)

SanAntone said:


> Of course a majority of people will agree that they think his ballets are beautiful (there's not much else there).
> 
> Why don't you have as your next poll, "Is candy sweet?".





SanAntone said:


> There's beauty in Tchaikovsky ballets just as there is nutrition in cotton candy.


Your position seems contradictory.



SanAntone said:


> My question to you is, "why is this question worth asking?" (...) But so what? Since when are superficial qualities like beauty something to focus on?
> 
> Why don't you have as your next poll, "Is candy sweet?" That question has the same amount of importance as this one.


I just turned a "little experiment" suggested by you for both of us into a poll with more participants (see below). Don't you think that your own experiment is worth being done?

Besides, again, why not?



SanAntone said:


> Let's try a little experiment: You post three YouTube clips of music you think is beautiful and I will do the same. Then we will offer our responses.
> 
> You first.





Xisten267 said:


> I won't post the YouTube links, but my three choices are Tchaikovsky's _Swan Lake_, _The Sleeping Beauty_ and _The Nutcracker_ nonetheless, and I just created a poll about these choices to see how the members of TC will react. I think that we will agree that they can be described as "beautiful". Let's see.


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## fluteman (Dec 7, 2015)

science said:


> I used to have annual discussions with my wife about whether Bach's Christmas Oratorio counted as holiday music. I promised her that she just needed time to build up an association between that music and the season, but I found out that I just needed a little extra rum in the eggnog.


Aha. I knew I would learn something worthwhile if I stayed with this thread. And I'm referring solely to the eggnog tip. If you think trying to convince one's wife to change her music listening habits is a good idea, I'm genuinely concerned for you.


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

Xisten267 said:


> Your position seems contradictory.


No, there's nutrition in cotton candy, just not valuable nutrition. I feel the same for beauty, it's not very valuable as aesthetic considerations go, IMO.



> I just turned a "little experiment" suggested by you for both of us into a poll with more participants (see below). Don't you think that your own experiment is worth being done?


It's not my experiment; I never suggested a poll about Tchaikovsky ballets. I asked you to post YouTube clips of beautiful music, which you declined, in order to show how our ideas of beauty in music would probably be different.



> Besides, again, why not?


Because it's obvious and an unenlightening question.


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## Xisten267 (Sep 2, 2018)

SanAntone said:


> I asked you to post YouTube clips of beautiful music, which you declined, in order to show how our ideas of beauty in music would probably be different.


...and I made this poll in order to show how the ideas of beauty in music converge instead of diverge in a group of people. As enlightening as your experiment, as you see.



SanAntone said:


> I feel the same for *beauty*, it's not very valuable as *aesthetic* considerations go, IMO.


You are aware that "aesthetic" can be defined (according to the dictionary) as "concerned with beauty or the appreciation of beauty", right? You're telling me that beauty is not valuable as considerations concerned with beauty go. Again, this seems contradictory.


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## Neo Romanza (May 7, 2013)

Beauty is subjective from one listener to another, but if you hear something as beautiful, then obviously that will be in the music. This thread is nothing in the world but a variation on the "Where is the beauty in music?"


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## fluteman (Dec 7, 2015)

SanAntone said:


> No, there's nutrition in cotton candy, just not valuable nutrition. I feel the same for beauty, it's not very valuable as aesthetic considerations go, IMO.


Lucky for you, the dictionary has a broad definition of "beauty": A combination of qualities the pleases the senses or the mind. Pleasure, in turn, is enjoyment, happiness or satisfaction. So, anything that gives you sensual or intellectual enjoyment, happiness or satisfaction qualifies as beautiful.

Classical music, including Tchaikovsky ballets, does that for me, though I too derive great satisfaction, both sensual and intellectual, from much other music. As far as polls are concerned, data for the US suggest the Classical & Opera genre is about the 10th most popular, well behind the top six, which are Rock, Pop, Country, R&B and Soul, Hip Hop and Easy Listening. So, at least in the US, considerably more people get enjoyment, happiness or satisfaction from those musical genres than from Classical and Opera music.

Those are the plain, hard facts. Now, I challenge anybody reading this to explain why anyone who is not in the music industry should give a @#$%.


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## mmsbls (Mar 6, 2011)

Xisten267 said:


> About 15% of the voters so far said that either there's no beauty in the ballets of Tchaikovsky or that they didn't know. I think that they are exceptions to the rule because they may be somewhat "blind" to the feeling of "beauty" in music. Most of us agree that "beauty" can be found in the three ballets, and this is so obvious to some people that they even make jokes about it.


Did you learn anything from the poll? In other words did the results or comments add anything to your prior views?


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## Xisten267 (Sep 2, 2018)

mmsbls said:


> Did you learn anything from the poll? In other words did the results or comments add anything to your prior views?


Yes, they reinforced my view. I think that the fundamental sensations associated with music (such as sadness, happiness, beauty etc.) can be intuitively perceived by most people, and the results of this poll so far suggest that I may be right, at least in what regards only this group of individuals.

Note that some people here seem to disagree with this premise, and hence the need to test it.


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## mmsbls (Mar 6, 2011)

Xisten267 said:


> Yes, they reinforced my view. I think that the fundamental sensations associated with music (such as sadness, happiness, beauty etc.) can be intuitively perceived by most people, and the results of this poll so far suggest that I may be right, at least in what regards only this group of individuals.
> 
> Note that some people here seem to disagree with my premise, and hence the need to test it.


Do you have an expectation of what the results would be if you gave this poll to people who don't listen to classical music (i.e. the vast majority of people in the world)? I would be interested to see results from polling two groups: 1) those from cultures that traditionally have valued classical music (e.g. europe, US, etc.) and 2) those from cultures that have not traditionally valued classical music (e.g. Africa, SE Asia, etc.).


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## fbjim (Mar 8, 2021)

fluteman said:


> Aha. I knew I would learn something worthwhile if I stayed with this thread. And I'm referring solely to the eggnog tip. If you think trying to convince one's wife to change her music listening habits is a good idea, I'm genuinely concerned for you.


I think the lesson that was learned was in fact that anything is enjoyable with a bit of rum.


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## Xisten267 (Sep 2, 2018)

mmsbls said:


> Do you have an expectation of what the results would be if you gave this poll to people who don't listen to classical music (i.e. the vast majority of people in the world)? I would be interested to see results from polling two groups: 1) those from cultures that traditionally have valued classical music (e.g. europe, US, etc.) and 2) those from cultures that have not traditionally valued classical music (e.g. Africa, SE Asia, etc.).


I think that it would be senseless to ask people about what they aren't familiarized with. Beauty can of course be found outside of classical music, so it would be better to make polls with other kinds of music for those who don't know it. But I believe that anyone in any part of the world, from any culture, who happens to enjoy CM, would have a high potential to agree that the word "beauty" can aptly be associated with the Tchaikovsky ballets, while not necessarily with other music such as, say, Stravinsky's _Rite of Spring_, or Schoenberg's _Pierrot Lunaire_.

Expression doesn't need to be soft and beautiful; it can be harsh and ugly.


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## mmsbls (Mar 6, 2011)

Xisten267 said:


> I think that it would be senseless to ask people about what they aren't familiarized with. Beauty can of course be found outside of classical music, so it would be better to make polls with other kinds of music for those who don't know it. But I believe that anyone in any part of the world, from any culture, who happens to enjoy CM, would have a high potential to agree that the word "beauty" can aptly be associated with the Tchaikovsky ballets, while not necessarily with other music such as, say, Stravinsky's _Rite of Spring_, or Schoenberg's _Pierrot Lunaire_.


If I understand you, you believe people's view of the beauty of musical works varies widely. A high percentage of those familiar with a particular genre will find some works beautiful (e.g. Tchaikovsky's ballets). A lower percentage will find other works beautiful. A still lower percentage will find other works beautiful (maybe Rite of Spring or Pierrot Lunaire) and so on. Those not familiar with a particular genre may not find works in that genre beautiful.

I think it would be quite fascinating to see polls of beauty (or general enjoyment) for given works across many cultures or people within a culture. If Tchaikovsky's ballets are not beautiful to a high percentage outside of those familiar with classical music, what accounts for that? I would guess that learning does. Those of us who listen to classical (or country, soul, rock, etc.,) have learned over time to enjoy the sounds of that music.

Some who have learned to enjoy classical music may not enjoy all classical music. I disliked Beethoven's Grosse Fuge until I learned to enjoy the sounds. Now it's one of my favorite quartets, and I find it beautiful (among other aspects). I found Berg's Violin Concerto random sounding and most definitely not beautiful until I learned to hear the sounds in a different manner. Now it is profoundly beautiful.

As best as I can tell, people learn to like particular music and find parfticular music beautiful while not really finding other types of music beautiful. It's certainly possible that more people who learn to like CPT music will find some works beautiful than other works. It would be interesting to understand why that is so (i.e. what about those works appeals to more people?), but I suspect that is something people won't understand for a long time.


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## fluteman (Dec 7, 2015)

mmsbls said:


> Do you have an expectation of what the results would be if you gave this poll to people who don't listen to classical music (i.e. the vast majority of people in the world)? I would be interested to see results from polling two groups: 1) those from cultures that traditionally have valued classical music (e.g. europe, US, etc.) and 2) those from cultures that have not traditionally valued classical music (e.g. Africa, SE Asia, etc.).


People from non-western cultures have their own classical music values and traditions. I don't know why this simple fact is so hard for some to wrap their minds around. Yes, there can be cultural convergence in both directions, as well as cultural divergence, and splintering into subcultures.

But even if one considers the US alone, Tchaikovsky has taken a hit since the 1960s. That was when two long-standing classical music network TV shows that started as radio programs, The Voice of Firestone and The Bell Telephone Hour, both were cancelled. Both programs featured plenty of Tchaikovsky. including ballet (see below). After that, there never was another regularly broadcast national classical music program, outside of public radio and television.


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## fluteman (Dec 7, 2015)

Xisten267 said:


> But I believe that anyone in any part of the world, from any culture, who happens to enjoy CM, would have a high potential to agree that the word "beauty" can aptly be associated with the Tchaikovsky ballets, while not necessarily with other music such as, say, Stravinsky's _Rite of Spring_, or Schoenberg's _Pierrot Lunaire_.
> [/URL].


I believe not. I believe The Firebird, Petrouchka and The Rite of Spring are spectacularly beautiful, exactly in the same way Tchaikovsky's ballets are, in fact very much from the same musical tradition in many ways. In fact, I know of no music more beautiful, however you choose to define beautiful, than those three ballets of Stravinsky. Debussy certainly thought they were beautiful.

If you want "ugliness" in the sense of the art of Lucien Freud, you can find it in Tchaikovsky's Sleeping Beauty in the evil and hideous Carabosse. Similarly, in the Firebird we find the fearsome Koschei. Yet those are two of the most beautiful works of art I know.

The distinction you are trying to make is not valid.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

Xisten267 said:


> But I believe that anyone in any part of the world, from any culture, who happens to enjoy CM, would have a high potential to agree that the word "beauty" can aptly be associated with the Tchaikovsky ballets, while not necessarily with other music such as, say, Stravinsky's _Rite of Spring_, or Schoenberg's _Pierrot Lunaire_.
> Expression doesn't need to be soft and beautiful; it can be harsh and ugly.


So you meant to say Tchaikovsky's ballets are _merely pleasant_ in comparison, with this thread?


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## eljr (Aug 8, 2015)

fluteman said:


> I believe The Firebird, Petrouchka and The Rite of Spring are spectacularly beautiful, exactly in the same way Tchaikovsky's ballets are...


The reason for this is because they are.


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## AaronSF (Sep 5, 2021)

I like Tchaikovsky's ballet music like I like candy...rarely and in small doses. I almost always regret it afterword.


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## Xisten267 (Sep 2, 2018)

AaronSF said:


> I like Tchaikovsky's ballet music like I like candy...rarely and in small doses. I almost always regret it afterword.


But do you experience "beauty", one of many possible sensations felt by the human brain, when eating candy? And when listening to the Tchaikovsky's ballets?



mmsbls said:


> I think it would be quite fascinating to see polls of beauty (or general enjoyment) for given works across many cultures or people within a culture. If Tchaikovsky's ballets are not beautiful to a high percentage outside of those familiar with classical music, what accounts for that? I would guess that learning does. Those of us who listen to classical (or country, soul, rock, etc.,) have learned over time to enjoy the sounds of that music.


I agree that it would be interesting for us to have more data on the subject. But I disagree that sensations in music are learned. They are felt. And I think that all a person needs to feel them is assimilate some pieces that portray them - only careful and repeated listening is needed in this process (if it's from a musical language uncommon to the said person, more time and effort may be necessary). I believe that a tribesman at Congo can probably tell that Giazotto's adagio is sad, that the Tchaikovsky's flower waltz is beautiful, etc. by listening to them a few times, even if he doesn't know what a C major scale or a sonata are.



hammeredklavier said:


> So you meant to say Tchaikovsky's ballets are _merely pleasant_ in comparison, with this thread?


No, I mean that most of the Tchaikovsky's ballets can portray a specific kind of sensation related to the word "beauty". Think in the flower waltz for example in terms of it's use of melody, harmony and orchestration (the main fundamental elements to portray "beauty" in music, I think).


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## Xisten267 (Sep 2, 2018)

Perhaps off-topic, but in my opinion "beauty" is also one of the main elements of Ravel's _Ma Mére l'Oye_. Shades of delicate and calm sensations that are very pleasurable to the aesthetic senses - that piece has a lot of it, I think.


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## haziz (Sep 15, 2017)

Is this even a question?


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## eljr (Aug 8, 2015)

Xisten267 said:


> I believe that a tribesman at Congo can probably tell that Giazotto's adagio is sad, that the Tchaikovsky's flower waltz is beautiful


Science shows this is the case and it does not take repeated listening.

There is some universality encoded in us.


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## tdc (Jan 17, 2011)

Xisten267 said:


> Perhaps off-topic, but in my opinion "beauty" is also one of the main elements of Ravel's _Ma Mére l'Oye_. Shades of delicate and calm sensations that are very pleasurable to the aesthetic senses - that piece has a lot of it, I think.


In the case of Ravel, the concept of 'beauty' was certainly a central aspect in his conception of music. The word 'beauty' can refer to different things, sometimes simple aesthetic beauty, sometimes something more complex and profound. There are people who find beauty in the macabre (for example do you find Ravel's _Gaspard de la nuit_ beautiful? What about Beethoven's _Grosse Fuge_)?

"Ravel's art strove neither for passion nor for truth, but rather toward a 'contemplation of beauty' from the satisfaction of the spirit through the joy of listening." - Arbie Orenstein


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## jegreenwood (Dec 25, 2015)

I find more beauty watching a ballet performance of Tchaikovsky than just listening to the music. For beauty in pure music, my first choice would be Schubert followed by Mozart.


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## Xisten267 (Sep 2, 2018)

tdc said:


> In the case of Ravel, the concept of 'beauty' was certainly a central aspect in his conception of music. The word 'beauty' can refer to different things, sometimes simple aesthetic beauty, sometimes something more complex and profound. There are people who find beauty in the macabre (for example do you find Ravel's _Gaspard de la nuit_ beautiful? What about Beethoven's _Grosse Fuge_)?
> 
> "Ravel's art strove neither for passion nor for truth, but rather toward a 'contemplation of beauty' from the satisfaction of the spirit through the joy of listening." - Arbie Orenstein


I don't know, maybe you're right.

_Gaspard de la nuit_ is a piece I'm not much familiarized with at the moment, so I don't know what to say about it. But the _Grosse Fuge_ is much more like a raw, harsh torrent of emotions to me than an emblem of "beauty". If I look for "beauty" in Beethoven, I'll go for other pieces such as the _Choral_ Fantasia or the _Pastoral_ symphony.


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## BachIsBest (Feb 17, 2018)

fluteman said:


> People from non-western cultures have their own classical music values and traditions. I don't know why this simple fact is so hard for some to wrap their minds around. Yes, there can be cultural convergence in both directions, as well as cultural divergence, and splintering into subcultures.


From Wikipedia: "Classical music most commonly refers to the formal musical tradition of the Western world, considered to be distinct from Western folk music or popular music traditions. It is often distinguished as Western classical music, as the term 'classical music' alone may also refer to music evidencing similar formal qualities in non-Western cultures."

You keep bringing this up, but the most common usage of classical music is to refer to a certain style of European music. Nobody here (as far as I know) has any challenges accepting that non-European cultures had their own, non-European music.


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## Rogerx (Apr 27, 2018)

haziz said:


> Is this even a question?


I keep coming back just to get a boost from your answer , post from the month .


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

The human brain is made for aesthetic judgments - wired to find things beautiful. The universe is made to afford the experience of beauty - filled with the sorts of qualities which the brain, a product of the selfsame universe, is built to perceive and appreciate. _Of __course_ there is beauty in the ballets of Tchaikovsky. It's unthinkable that there would not be. It would be hard to find a piece of music - a composition of sounds produced by the human brain for the purpose of pleasing itself - that contains nothing of beauty. Some pieces of music will be composed to incorporate and express more of the qualities that typically afford aesthetic pleasure than others; some pieces are better constructed, some are more sensuously stimulating, some are more viscerally exciting or arousing or conducive to serene contemplation, some show more evidence of thought and invention, some tap into subtler or more primal feelings...

Beauty is found in all these dimensions and more, in infinite combinations and degrees. Trying to decide how beautiful something is, is a futile exercise, because beauty is not a simple, measurable attribute of things but a potential things have, by virtue of many qualities, to give us an experience - an aesthetic experience - for which our brains are ready and waiting. The world contains not beauty but beauties, and different brains are ready and waiting to discover and react to different varieties of beauty, depending on both the constitution of the object and the capacities and contents of the brain that percieves the object. Those capacities and contents vary not only between brains but within the same brain from minute to minute, day to day, or year to year. The experience of beauty, like any experience, is not static - fortunately, or we would never have the wonderful and common experience of learning to see beauty where we did not before.

The question of whether there is beauty in Tchaikovsky's ballets is easily answered in the affirmative if we know what sorts of things human brains are wired to find beautiful. It isn't necessary to point out, either in affirmation or in refutation, that a certain proportion of the human population does or does not enjoy the ballets of Tchaikovsky. Tchaikovsky's creative imagination, powers of musical invention and technical mastery are beautiful things because they are kinds of things that the brain is made to respond to with aesthetic pleasure, whether or not a given brain is at any moment so attuned to them as to gain the rewards they can offer.


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## Luchesi (Mar 15, 2013)

Animal the Drummer said:


> There are a fair few composers whose music I would be more likely to listen to, but could anyone seriously answer this question in the negative?


Someone who has come around to find sugary sweet, predictable tonal works to be close to unbearable. I have two musician friends in that category. They commiserate about it with each other. heh
But they would probably agree that Pyotr Ilyich has many counterbalancing redeeming qualities, and they can abide all the sweetness in small doses.
You'd have to ask them, I don't want to bring it up..


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## AaronSF (Sep 5, 2021)

AaronSF said:


> I like Tchaikovsky's ballet music like I like candy...rarely and in small doses. I almost always regret it afterword.





Xisten267 said:


> But do you experience "beauty", one of many possible sensations felt by the human brain, when eating candy? And when listening to the Tchaikovsky's ballets?


No, I don't experience "beauty" when eating candy. It may be yummy, but that's not the same as beautiful. Sorry, but I find Tchaikovsky's ballet music cloying like candy. I can take it in small quantities, but too much of it makes me nauseous. Especially "Swan Lake." But _a chacun son gout._


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## Ethereality (Apr 6, 2019)

I don't find beauty in food, but sweetness is supposed to be the ultimate lingual sensation--and therefore I can empathize with those who don't like composers that overrely on that one sensation. Raw sugar isn't essential to any diet. In our societal evolution, sugar used to be a luxury. Now it's everywhere in cheap quantities and there are people who don't eat it at all.

My struggle moreso lies in determining the actual difference between a good unsweet piece, and a bad piece. Outside of tonality, good melodic part-writing, and its counterpoint and rhythm (its flavoring), how else would you determine a piece is good or bad?


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## 89Koechel (Nov 25, 2017)

AaronSF said:


> No, I don't experience "beauty" when eating candy. It may be yummy, but that's not the same as beautiful. Sorry, but I find Tchaikovsky's ballet music cloying like candy. I can take it in small quantities, but too much of it makes me nauseous. Especially "Swan Lake." But _a chacun son gout._


Hmm, Tchaikovsky as "cloying" ... interesting! Since EVERY composer of his day followed the usual, tonal/melodic traditions ... maybe he should've been "craggy", like Sibelius? ... or atonal, like Schoenberg? Delibes, Schubert and any, other composer who was in-the-vein, so to speak, in creating a ballet for musicians & dancers, would follow the ... let's say ... most-attractive path ... even if it includes a sweetness SHORT-OF cloying and/or sentimentality. Prokofiev (in Romeo & Juliet) started a less-sweet/more-unpredictable path, sure. Another Russian, the estimable Stravinsky, though, characterized his "Firebird" ballet Suite as "an audience lollipop". Well, the structural STRENGTHS of a Tchaikovsky ballet, or a Stravinsky one (and name others, anytime) are apparent and enduring, IMO.


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## jegreenwood (Dec 25, 2015)

89Koechel said:


> Hmm, Tchaikovsky as "cloying" ... interesting! Since EVERY composer of his day followed the usual, tonal/melodic traditions ... maybe he should've been "craggy", like Sibelius? ... or atonal, like Schoenberg? Delibes, Schubert and any, other composer who was in-the-vein, so to speak, in creating a ballet for musicians & dancers, would follow the ... let's say ... most-attractive path ... even if it includes a sweetness SHORT-OF cloying and/or sentimentality. Prokofiev (in Romeo & Juliet) started a less-sweet/more-unpredictable path, sure. Another Russian, the estimable *Stravinsky, though, characterized his "Firebird" ballet Suite as "an audience lollipop"*. Well, the structural STRENGTHS of a Tchaikovsky ballet, or a Stravinsky one (and name others, anytime) are apparent and enduring, IMO.


Are we discussing ballets or ballet suites? As far as I’m concerned a lot of the music in a Tchaikovsky ballet is boring - unless someone is dancing to it, which is the reason it was written. I agree that for the most part, the suites are collections of the most engaging tunes. But the suites are an afterthought. Ballet music is written to be seen, not just heard.


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## justekaia (Jan 2, 2022)

mbhaub said:


> Pierre Boulez would have. Elliot Carter likely.


Mao Tse-tung would probably also have answered in the negative. My Iranian neighbour who never listened to classical music in his entire lifetime would have answered in the negative. A guy like Boulez had lots of dislikes. The point is that Tchaikovsky's ballet music is incredibly beautiful. I am not a fan because music is more than just beauty. But then i cannot resist to listening to it once in a while.


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