# Favorite Massenet Opera?



## Queen of the Nerds (Dec 22, 2014)

After selecting your choice, please comment on what you chose and why!


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## Sloe (May 9, 2014)

Manon is the only Massenet opera I have heard.
Since I think opera sang in French sounds like they are singing through their noses I avoid French operas. I prefer them in translated versions or with non-French singers with heavy accents. I really don´t think this is a valid reason but that is how it is. And this is despite that I spend a lot of time during a period in trying to learn French. Then it was my non-interest in French culture that kept me going on since I did not become dissapointed in not learning enough.


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## schigolch (Jun 26, 2011)

Thaïs.................................


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## sharik (Jan 23, 2013)

i only seen Werther and Thais, but was disappointed by both.


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## sharik (Jan 23, 2013)

Sloe said:


> opera sang in French sounds like they are singing through their noses


that's such a technique... i for one actually like it.


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## Cesare Impalatore (Apr 16, 2015)

Sloe said:


> Manon is the only Massenet opera I have heard.
> Since I think opera sang in French sounds like they are singing through their noses I avoid French operas. I prefer them in translated versions or with non-French singers with heavy accents.


Really? I regard french opera tradition as second only to Italy's, french composers from baroque up to impressionism wrote some of the most heavenly music there is and developed their very own appropriately delicate school of singing which is kind of underrepresented in the collective memory of opera fans in my opinion. Truly great singers like Georges Thill, Georgette Frozier-Marot, Alain Vanzo, Andrée Esposito, Henri Legay etc. are barely known.

Just listen to Legay's gentle Chevalier des Grieux (together with Victoria de los Angeles):






My personal favourite Massenet opera is Werther, though. Goethe's novel _Die Leiden des jungen Werther_ was a crucial part of my tragically unhappy adolescent love, Massenet's bittersweet music being the ideal consolation:


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## Sloe (May 9, 2014)

Cesare Impalatore said:


> Really? I regard french opera tradition as second only to Italy's, french composers from baroque up to impressionism wrote some of the most heavenly music there is and developed their very own appropriately delicate school of singing which is kind of underrepresented in the collective memory of opera fans in my opinion. Truly great singers like Georges Thill, Georgette Frozier-Marot, Alain Vanzo, Andrée Esposito, Henri Legay etc. are barely known.
> ]


It is a flaw I have.


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## quack (Oct 13, 2011)

_Don Quichotte_ for me.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

I like them all, just as I love my parent equal .

So you don't have to choose


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## sospiro (Apr 3, 2010)

quack said:


> _Don Quichotte_ for me.


And me. Massenet was quite old when he wrote this and the story is so poignant.






PS quack - you didn't vote, or if you did it wasn't registered


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## MoonlightSonata (Mar 29, 2014)

I'm afraid I haven't heard any


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## AndyS (Dec 2, 2011)

I voted Esclarmonde, but I love Massenet.

Some of the music in Esclarmonde is a bit syrupy, but in the same way Puccini can be. Dame Joan is amazing in the recording


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## Figleaf (Jun 10, 2014)

I voted 'can't decide', because the operas have fared very differently when it comes to recordings. For example, Manon and Werther have quite a few excellent recordings devoted to them, whereas Le Mage has only been recorded once that I'm aware of, and in very recent times at that. French opera to me is inseparable from French singing, and for that reason I gravitate towards recordings made in the mid twentieth century or earlier, but even with the riches available to us from those times, there are some odd lacunae. The obvious example to me is 'Le Cid', which (performed idiomatically, as it is on the very early recordings) has never been the subject of a complete recording at all- except in modern times with international singers, and I really don't want to go there. Feast your eyes and ears on the pictures and sound clips of great French singers in Le Cid, from its premiere until the mid 20th century:

http://www.artlyriquefr.fr/oeuvres/Cid.html

Anyone in doubt about the greatness of French opera and French singing should click on that link. My favourite of the audio clips there, and in fact two of my favourite recordings of all time, are the love duet 'O jour de premiere tendresse' gorgeously sung by Agustarello Affre and Mathilde Comès, and 'C'est vous que l'on bénit' magisterially sung by Jean Noté: his best record in my opinion, and the imposing character of the King's music fits his grandeur of style and his resonant voice like a glove. Georges Thill's 'O noble lame' deserves a mention too, and Paul Aumonier's 'Il a fait noblement'... Nobody is singing through their noses on these records (Sloe, are you sure you're you're not confusing French opera singers with Edith Piaf or somebody? ) and also we can hear on those clips a more muscular type of male singer than the excellent lyric tenors Alain Vanzo and Henri Legay mentioned by Cesare Impalatore. (Affre is of course the best of the tenors in the Le Cid extracts above, but Thill and Alvarez also have distinguished voices and a manly style.) I think that the relative obscurity in modern times of Le Cid (and to a lesser extent Herodiade, which has fared slightly better on disc) possibly distorts modern listeners' perceptions of the character of Massenet's operas: Esclarmonde has been mentioned, having famously been revived for Joan Sutherland, but Massenet composed much that was grander and more virile in character, which is in danger of being ignored because of the unfashionability of French grand opera for much of the twentieth century and beyond, and because the Anglophone world thinks of French opera and French singing as something namby pamby and effeminate, and shuts out all evidence to the contrary. 

So, to answer the question properly, my favourite Massenet opera among those I've heard in full is Herodiade, which has some of the best music for tenor and baritone I've ever heard. Le Cid continues to fascinate me, as 'the one that got away'. 'Le Mage' I would like to hear more of; it's known to me only from the famous aria 'Ah parais', which is has been recorded by Affre and Escalais in stunning and very different interpretations. Werther I like, provided the hero is not portrayed as a wimp; the same goes for Des Grieux in Manon, though that is an opera I like less.

Some virile French singers of the LP era in Massenet:

Rene Bianco, 'Promesse de mon avenir' 




His vibrato bothers me a little, but what a lovely voice- in this music he's clearly in the tradition of such baritones as Henri Albers and Jean Lassalle, the role's creator, with their rich voices and relatively forthright style. If only there was a decent complete recording of Le Roi de Lahore!

Tony Poncet, 'Pourquoi me reveiller' 




The only Massenet music he recorded AFAIK... what a splendidly charismatic Werther he would have been, even if he doesn't sound like a melancholy poet who would die for love! At least we have Thill on the complete recording...


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## Figleaf (Jun 10, 2014)

sospiro said:


> And me. Massenet was quite old when he wrote this and the story is so poignant.
> 
> PS quack - you didn't vote, or if you did it wasn't registered


Sorry if this is a stupid question, but how do you see who voted for what?


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## sospiro (Apr 3, 2010)

Figleaf said:


> Sorry if this is a stupid question, but how do you see who voted for what?


You can't see who voted for what but you _can_ see what you voted for as it's in italics on your screen. There was only one vote for Don Quichotte and this was in italics so that vote must have been mine.

No question is stupid if you don't know the answer.


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## MAS (Apr 15, 2015)

Though I've seen Manon, Herodiade, Esclarmonde, Thais, Werther, Cendrillon, Le Cid, and Don Quichotte, I can't say I have a favorite Massenet *opera*, but I have favorite Massenet *arias*, which are "Pleurez, mes yeux," "O Souverain, o juge, o père," "Pourquoi me réveiller," and the Air des lettres." I was lucky to live in San Francisco during the in the 1970s, and 1980s, when Sutherland (Esclarmonde), Sills (Manon, Thais), Von Stade (Cendrillon), Domingo (Herodiade, with Renee Fleming, Le Cid, Werther), Carreras (Werher), sang here. Don Quichotte was done for Samuel Ramey in 1990. The one I saw the most was Werther, but I am not very fond of it, except for the two exceptional arias (Pourquoi me réveiller, and the Air des lettres).


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## Orfeo (Nov 14, 2013)

It's *Esclarmonde* for me, and fairly recently I must add, for I love *Heriodiade* almost to death when EMI issued its recording by the early, mid-1990s (Plasson, Studer, Heppner). But it's Esclarmonde that I return to more often than not. *Werther* is my next choice, followed by *Le Cid*.

*Therese* is also worth mentioning, because although it's short, and the best was clearly behind Massenet when he wrote it in 1906, this opera has quite a bit going for it and is often compelling, meaty stuff (the Tosca like ending after her "vive le roi" proclamation truly sticks to memory).


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## Figleaf (Jun 10, 2014)

Which recordings of Herodiade do members have, or recommend? I'm considering this one, with Ernest Blanc. I've only heard brief samples on Amazon, but Jean Brazzi may be a better John the Baptist than the anaemic, constantly aspirating Guy Fouché on the 1957 recording.










This is the one I already have, with an excellent Herod and Phanuel, but not such a good John:










There are also excerpts recorded in the 20s (?) with Ninon Vallin, René Verdière and Arthur Endrèze, but I don't think it's ever been on CD- if anyone knows otherwise I'd be very interested!


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## Orfeo (Nov 14, 2013)

Figleaf said:


> Which recordings of Herodiade do members have, or recommend? I'm considering this one, with Ernest Blanc. I've only heard brief samples on Amazon, but Jean Brazzi may be a better John the Baptist than the anaemic, constantly aspirating Guy Fouché on the 1957 recording.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Get this one:
http://www.amazon.com/Herodiade-Jul...d=1432234296&sr=1-1-spell&keywords=heriodiade

This album has a nice threatrical feel to it and the cast is very strong (aided by Plasson's decisive phrasings and strong contribution from the orchestra et chorus). And the version is complete, not cut, as in, for instance, Gergiev's San Francisco Opera production.


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## Figleaf (Jun 10, 2014)

Orfeo said:


> Get this one:
> http://www.amazon.com/Herodiade-Jul...d=1432234296&sr=1-1-spell&keywords=heriodiade
> 
> This album has a nice threatrical feel to it and the cast is very strong (aided by Plasson's decisive phrasings and strong contribution from the orchestra et chorus). And the version is complete, not cut, as in, for instance, Gergiev's San Francisco Opera production.


Thanks for the recommendation! I like José van Dam, but the other singers (Studer, Heppner) are just names to me at the moment. I have some trepidation about modern recordings and non- French singers (as I presume the cast on that recording are apart from van Dam) but I will certainly sample that recording before I buy the Lloyd Jones one.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

I voted for *Werther*. It was the first Massenet opera I ever saw (in a wonderful Glyndebourne Touring production) and I think the first one I had on LP (the Plasson recording with Kraus and Troyanos). Subsequently I got to see *Manon* on stage (with the delightful Valerie Masterson), and bought the still unrivaled De Los Angeles recording, conducted by Monteux.

Some time later I saw a terrific production of *Cherubin* with Susan Graham in the title role and a young Angela Gheorghiu making a memorable impression in the supporting role of Nina. I've heard recordings of *Le Roi de Lahore*, *Esclarmonde*, *Don Quichotte*, *Thais*, *Cendrillon and Le Jongleur de Notre Dame*, but none of these made as much impression on me as *Werther* and *Manon*, which I think is a better representation of Prevost than Puccini's opera. If I eventually come down in favour of *Werther*, it's because of the almost Wagnerian lushness of its dark score, though it's a tough call.


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## Orfeo (Nov 14, 2013)

Figleaf said:


> Thanks for the recommendation! I like José van Dam, but the other singers (Studer, Heppner) are just names to me at the moment. I have some trepidation about modern recordings and non- French singers (as I presume the cast on that recording are apart from van Dam) but I will certainly sample that recording before I buy the Lloyd Jones one.


You bet. I see what you mean re: trepidations with newer recordings vs. the older ones esp. when it comes to French operas. For instance, in the case of Werther, I came across people who sworn up and down Elie Cohen/Georges Thill/Ninon Vallin recording (Naxos) or even the Pretre/Nicolai Gedda/Victoria de los Angeles one (EMI) over Davis/Van Dam Philip one, which I greatly admire for a long time.

I guess that means I should give the other two a try (esp. Naxos).


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## Figleaf (Jun 10, 2014)

Orfeo said:


> You bet. I see what you mean re: trepidations with newer recordings vs. the older ones esp. when it comes to French operas. For instance, in the case of Werther, I came across people who sworn up and down Elie Cohen/Georges Thill/Ninon Vallin recording (Naxos) or even the Pretre/Nicolai Gedda/Victoria de los Angeles one (EMI) over Davis/Van Dam Philip one, which I greatly admire for a long time.
> 
> I guess that means I should give the other two a try (esp. Naxos).


Oh yes, definitely worth a listen! Actually Thill and Vallin aren't really early enough for me , I prefer Emile Scaramberg and Marie Delna respectively in the couple of arias they each recorded:



















But of course the Thill/ Vallin complete recording is a nice thing to have- Thill was a remarkable vocalist, even if I find his Werther a little blank and faceless. I haven't heard the Gedda/ de los Angeles version yet. And of course every so often there is a living, breathing singer who has the talent, and the affinity for the genre, to revive the 19th century French repertoire that we don't hear so often, like this recording of Bryan Hymel in 'Ne pouvent reprimer des elans de la foi' from Herodiade:






He's no Paul Franz (yet) but I'm watching him with interest!


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## Orfeo (Nov 14, 2013)

Figleaf said:


> Oh yes, definitely worth a listen! Actually Thill and Vallin aren't really early enough for me , I prefer Emile Scaramberg and Marie Delna respectively in the couple of arias they each recorded:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thank you kindly. I'll give them a listen.
:tiphat:


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## StlukesguildOhio (Dec 25, 2006)

I went with what I suppose is the obvious: _Manon_... although I also love _Thaïs_ and _Werther_. There are several others I have greatly enjoyed... although not listened to close enough to place them among these 3.


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## alan davis (Oct 16, 2013)

A vastly under recorded composer in my humble opinion. Probably my favourite is Thais but all his canon are wonderful lyrical works and you cann't go wrong with any.


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## Meyerbeer Smith (Mar 25, 2016)

I said I couldn't decide. Massenet is one of my inner pantheon; he ranks with Meyerbeer, Berlioz and Rossini. His gifts are the opposite of Rossini'; whereas Rossini's music is wonderful but the plot often a vehicle for the music, Massenet approaches the music from the text - content dictates form. So he reinvents himself with each score. 

The best, I think, are Manon, Thais, Esclarmonde, Ariane, Griselidis and Roma.

I said Roma, and I mean Roma. Although critics since have been snooty, this is a noble, powerful work. The scene in Act IV with the blind grandmother and all of Act V (which has a very fine ensemble) are remarkable theatre. This was a great success when it was furst performed. The recording you want is the St Etienne, NOT the Martina Franca. The St E recordings of Roi de Lahore and Cid are a revelation, easily superior to the commercial versions with Sutherland/Milnes and Domingo.

Ariane is a beautiful work, full of light and grace. The chorus onboard ship at the start of Act 2 is particularly beautiful. 

I used to hate Werther - like Parsifal and Butterfly, it was boring. That was because I heard the Colin Davis recording, with Carreras. I recently heard the Thill recording, and it's a great work. As @Figleaf says, the diffetence French singers - with the right style, who are native speakers - make is enormous.


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## Sloe (May 9, 2014)

SimonTemplar said:


> I used to hate Werther - like Parsifal and Butterfly, it was boring. That was because I heard the Colin Davis recording, with Carreras. I recently heard the Thill recording, and it's a great work. As @Figleaf says, the diffetence French singers - with the right style, who are native speakers - make is enormous.


Personally I think native French singers sound too nasal so I prefer to hear opera in French with singers that have foreign accents.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Sloe said:


> Personally I think native French singers sound too nasal so I prefer to hear opera in French with singers that have foreign accents.


I am so glad someone dare to say this, I have that feeling too.
Give me Renée Fleming Thais any given day.:clap:


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## Meyerbeer Smith (Mar 25, 2016)

Well, Sibyl Sanderson, who created Thaïs and Esclarmonde, was American. So an American Thaïs isn't unprecedented!


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Manon is one of my favorite operas. Thais has some great music and is very emotionally charged. Esclarmonde is a magnificently unified piece, but very, very, very few besides Sutherland could do it justice. I have only heard one aria from Le Cid sung by Heppner on Sirius, but it is one of the most thrilling tenor arias I've ever heard. I've heard bits of Herodiad and really liked it. Bizet wrote my favorite French opera, Carmen, but The Pearl Fishers is his only other hit and I am not nearly as fond of it. I think Massenet wrote more spectacular works overall than Bizet. Berlioz had some great operatic music, but his operas feel more like oratorios to me. Les Troyens is too much of a good thing.


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## Figleaf (Jun 10, 2014)

Sloe said:


> Personally I think native French singers sound too nasal so I prefer to hear opera in French with singers that have foreign accents.


You think Thill sounded nasal? 

International singers make everything sound the same. They should stick to bellowing Nessun Dorma into a stadium mike or Land of Hope and Glory at the Proms, for people who just want to be in the presence of celebrity and don't care about singing. They should certainly stay away from French opera.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

So far, none are favorites. I have tried Cendrillon and Manon. Musically Massenet does not appeal to me. Nor have I found a story that I really cared for. Rossini's La Cenerentola is a much nicer treatment of Cinderella IMO. Manon is very depressing, girl goes from bad to worse. No redeeming features that I can find. I got rid of Cendrillon, but will keep Manon because my copy had Beverly Sills.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Sloe said:


> Personally I think native French singers sound too nasal so I prefer to hear opera in French with singers that have foreign accents.


I don't wish to be rude, but that is one of the strangest statements I've ever heard.

Actually I've found it tends to be foreign singers who over-nasalise (if that is a word) the French language. French sung by French singers, or foreign singers with a true appreciation and understanding of the language, is a joy to hear. I've been listening to quite a few recordings of operas sung by French singers recently (the Plasson *Orphee aux Enfers*, the Dervaux *Dialogues des Carmelites*, for instance) and it is a joy to hear the French language sung so clearly and naturally.

I'd say the same for Alagna's Werther, and indeed for any of his French roles (French is his native language). Listen to Alagna singing Gounod's Romeo and then follow it up with Corelli to hear the difference. Quite aside from Corelli's execrable French, he slides and sobs his way through the role as if it were by Giordano. I find it unlistenable.


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## Meyerbeer Smith (Mar 25, 2016)

Florestan said:


> So far, none are favorites. I have tried Cendrillon and Manon. Musically Massenet does not appeal to me. Nor have I found a story that I really cared for. Rossini's La Cenerentola is a much nicer treatment of Cinderella IMO. Manon is very depressing, girl goes from bad to worse. No redeeming features that I can find. I got rid of Cendrillon, but will keep Manon because my copy had Beverly Sills.


Since Massenet reinvents himself with each score, there should be a Massenet you'd like.

Want exoticism? _Hérodiade, Le mage, Le roi de Lahore, Cléopâtre_

Wagnerian grand opera? _Esclarmonde_

Heroic French drama? _Le Cid_

Verismo? _La Navarraise, Thérèse, Sappho_

Psychological drama / religion / fin de siècle decadence? _Thaïs_

An intimate, naturalistic bourgeois tragedy? _Werther_

Mediaeval romance? _Amadis_

A mediaeval mystery play? _Le jongleur de Notre-Dame_

A mediaeval comedy (with devil)? _Grisélidis_

A mediaeval comedy (without devil)? _Panurge_

Neo-Gluckian classical tragedy? _Ariane, Roma_

Mozartean comedy / coming of age story? _Chérubin_


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

SimonTemplar said:


> Since Massenet reinvents himself with each score, there should be a Massenet you'd like.
> 
> Want exoticism? _Hérodiade, Le mage, Le roi de Lahore, Cléopâtre_
> 
> ...


I will have to check some of these out. Thanks for the detailed post.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Florestan said:


> I will have to check some of these out. Thanks for the detailed post.


Beverly Sills has a pretty good Thais :tiphat:


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Pugg said:


> Beverly Sills has a pretty good Thais :tiphat:


But not, I think, in the Fleming league. This is definitely a case where the most modern recording is also the best.


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## Meyerbeer Smith (Mar 25, 2016)

Florestan said:


> I will have to check some of these out. Thanks for the detailed post.


My pleasure! Stay tuned.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

SimonTemplar said:


> Since Massenet reinvents himself with each score, there should be a Massenet you'd like.
> 
> Want exoticism? _Hérodiade, Le mage, Le roi de Lahore, Cléopâtre_
> 
> ...


He certainly chose a wide range of subjects. Personally I find all the over the top exoticism in such as *Esclarmonde* and *Le Roi de Lahore* all a bit much to take. I had the Sutherland recordings on LP, but when I finally got rid of my LPs felt no great inclination to get them on CD. And, to be honest, I have similar problems with *Thais*. I have the Fleming recording, and it makes the very best case for the opera imaginable I think, but I do find all that quasi-religious hokum a bit ridiculous, for all that it has some gorgeous moments, not least her glorious aria _Dis-moi que je suis belle_, which Fleming sings divinely.

*Manon* I love because it so perfectly captures the spirit of the L'Abbe Prevost novel (far better in fact that the Puccini opera), and because it is so quintessentially French; *Werther* because Massenet so well understands Goethe's youthful Romanticism. I also like *Cendrillon*, with its magical gossamer score (much as I like and enjoy Rossini's *La Cenerentola*, it is Massenet who brings us closer to Perrault) and the wonderful high spirits of *Cherubin*.

Your list doesn't include *Don Quichotte* by the way, which has a marvelous role for a bass, and is well worth seeking out.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

SimonTemplar said:


> My pleasure! Stay tuned.


But I should not continue scoping out operas at this time, it is expensive as it leads to purchases. I just spend some $60 on opera CDs/DVDs in the past three days. But I am on a Beverly Sills binge and so likely will not be able to resist exploring Massenet's other operas that feature Bev.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

GregMitchell said:


> I don't wish to be rude, but that is one of the strangest statements I've ever heard.
> 
> Actually I've found it tends to be foreign singers who over-nasalise (if that is a word) the French language. French sung by French singers, or foreign singers with a true appreciation and understanding of the language, is a joy to hear. I've been listening to quite a few recordings of operas sung by French singers recently (the Plasson *Orphee aux Enfers*, the Dervaux *Dialogues des Carmelites*, for instance) and it is a joy to hear the French language sung so clearly and naturally.
> 
> I'd say the same for Alagna's Werther, and indeed for any of his French roles (French is his native language). Listen to Alagna singing Gounod's Romeo and then follow it up with Corelli to hear the difference. Quite aside from Corelli's execrable French, he slides and sobs his way through the role as if it were by Giordano. I find it unlistenable.


Corelli's Werthers (and his hysterical claque) at the Met ruined me for the opera for many years. It wasn't until I heard Callas singing Charlotte's "letter aria" that I gave the opera another chance and found that I wasn't disgusted by its lachrimosity. It still isn't a favorite - if I ever decide to shoot myself it won't be for love - but when it's done with taste and dignity I can almost like it.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Woodduck said:


> Corelli's Werthers (and his hysterical claque) at the Met ruined me for the opera for many years. It wasn't until I heard Callas singing Charlotte's "letter aria" that I gave the opera another chance and found that I wasn't disgusted by its lachrimosity. It still isn't a favorite - if I ever decide to shoot myself it won't be for love - but when it's done with taste and dignity I can almost like it.


I first saw it when I was in my early twenties, in a beautifully understated Glyndebourne Touring production by Sir Michael Redgrave, and have loved it ever since. Maybe its youthful angst accorded with my own emotions at the time, though I never attempted suicide over any of my unrequited early passions, which isn't to say I never contemplated it.

But, as you say, it is best done with taste and dignity, which is exactly what we get in Callas's recording of the Letter Scene. Her session on it in her Juilliard master class sessions is quite revelatory.


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## Sloe (May 9, 2014)

GregMitchell said:


> I don't wish to be rude, but that is one of the strangest statements I've ever heard.
> 
> Actually I've found it tends to be foreign singers who over-nasalise (if that is a word) the French language. French sung by French singers, or foreign singers with a true appreciation and understanding of the language, is a joy to hear. I've been listening to quite a few recordings of operas sung by French singers recently (the Plasson *Orphee aux Enfers*, the Dervaux *Dialogues des Carmelites*, for instance) and it is a joy to hear the French language sung so clearly and naturally.
> 
> I'd say the same for Alagna's Werther, and indeed for any of his French roles (French is his native language). Listen to Alagna singing Gounod's Romeo and then follow it up with Corelli to hear the difference. Quite aside from Corelli's execrable French, he slides and sobs his way through the role as if it were by Giordano. I find it unlistenable.


I am listening to an opera in French now sung by non french singers and I don´t hear any over-nasalising but I have heard some French recordings that sounds too much. Yes Alagna sounds fine unless you have proof that French was the language that was spoken in his home when he grew up which could be possible I don´t believe French is his native language. In my opinion the native language is the language your family speak to you in not your neighbours I doubt Alagna´s neighbours spoke French anyway considering were he comes from.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Sloe said:


> I am listening to an opera in French now sung by non french singers and I don´t hear any over-nasalising but I have heard some French recordings that sounds too much. Yes Alagna sounds fine unless you have proof that French was the language that was spoken in his home when he grew up which could be possible I don´t believe French is his native language. In my opinion the native language is the language your family speak to you in not your neighbours I doubt Alagna´s neighbours spoke French anyway considering were he comes from.


Alagna was born and raised in France, so therefore it is his native language. It's the language he would have spoken at school and with his friends. I am half Greek and have many Greek friends who were born here in the UK to Greek parents. The families speak both English and Greek at home, but all the children who were born here speak English like natives, usually with the accent of the part of England they were born in.

Alagna may have had Sicilian parents, but he was actually born just outside Paris. To all intents and purposes he is a French tenor.


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## Figleaf (Jun 10, 2014)

GregMitchell said:


> Alagna was born and raised in France, so therefore it is his native language. It's the language he would have spoken at school and with his friends. *I am half Greek and have many Greek friends who were born here in the UK to Greek parents. The families speak both English and Greek at home, but all the children who were born here speak English like natives, usually with the accent of the part of England they were born in.*


Good points. An example might be the Welsh tenor Tano Ferendinos.



GregMitchell said:


> Alagna may have had Sicilian parents, but he was actually born just outside Paris. To all intents and purposes he is a French tenor.


Sadly, with the decline of French singing as a distinct national style, I don't know that 'French tenor' has much meaning now- but I suppose that if anybody is one, it's Alagna. The hugely erudite and fastidiously accurate tenor expert François Nouvion lists Alagna among French speaking tenors (I think- his site was down just now) and that's good enough for me. Alagna certainly regards himself as part of the French tenor tradition, to judge from interviews I've read. One of my favourite 'Pourquoi me réveiller' recordings is Tony Poncet's, and I don't think anyone even knows which was his first language- conceivably Spanish, according to Sloe's definition of first language- yet his 'French tenor' credentials are never questioned. Perhaps Alagna's wouldn't be either, if he had similarly Frenchified his name!


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## schigolch (Jun 26, 2011)

Poncet was born in Spain, but he was living in France since he was a very small child, so he can be counted as French.

An example of a Spanish tenor, that was born and raised in Spain, but can be also considered as a French tenor, is Miguel Villabella. Let's listen to him:


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## Figleaf (Jun 10, 2014)

schigolch said:


> Poncet was born in Spain, but he was living in France since he was a very small child, so he can be counted as French.
> 
> An example of a Spanish tenor, that was born and raised in Spain, but can be also considered as a French tenor, is Miguel Villabella. Let's listen to him:


I look forward to hearing that soon (YouTube seems to be blocked on the WiFi connection that I'm on) but from memory, I wonder whether Villabella might be one of the nasal French singers Sloe is complaining about! An interesting artist though, and it's a good point that he spent his early life in Spain and yet is considered French. (Would Albert Lance be another good example, or is that pushing it?) As far as French pronunciation is concerned, I have read that Villabella always retained and sang with a slight Spanish accent, although my French is nowhere near good enough to detect slight accents!


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## Sloe (May 9, 2014)

Figleaf said:


> wonder whether Villabella might be one of the nasal French singers Sloe is complaining about!


I am not complaining I am only expressing my personal preferences.
And yes he is if someone hear him differently it is up to them.


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## Figleaf (Jun 10, 2014)

Sloe said:


> I am not complaining I am only expressing my personal preferences.
> And yes he is.


Sorry Sloe, I didn't mean to imply that you were being unreasonable. Expressing personal preferences is fine, obviously.  I'll give you Villabella, and David Devries, and even perhaps the much-lauded Edmond Clement, but they are just one strand of the French lyric tenor tradition and arguably not the possessors of first class voices in spite of being fine artists. There are other French tenors and other types of French tenor- I can't think of any of the heroic or spinto voices that sound nasal to me, and neither do all of the lyric tenors. I don't hear any displeasing nasality in the voice of Léopold Simoneau, to choose an example which everyone here is presumably familiar with.


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## Sloe (May 9, 2014)

Figleaf said:


> Sorry Sloe, I didn't mean to imply that you were being unreasonable. Expressing personal preferences is fine, obviously.  I'll give you Villabella, and David Devries, and even perhaps the much-lauded Edmond Clement, but they are just one strand of the French lyric tenor tradition and arguably not the possessors of first class voices in spite of being fine artists. There are other French tenors and other types of French tenor- I can't think of any of the heroic or spinto voices that sound nasal to me, and neither do all of the lyric tenors. I don't hear any displeasing nasality in the voice of Léopold Simoneau, to choose an example which everyone here is presumably familiar with.


Different ears and mind hear and percept different things. I can not say what others hear.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

SimonTemplar said:


> Since Massenet reinvents himself with each score, there should be a Massenet you'd like.
> ...


I did a quick look at the ones which were live linked on Wikipedia's Massenet Operas page. Of them, these two look interesting: Esclarmonde and Le Cid. Alas, no Beverly Sills for these.

Hey, why don't they use "Le Portrait de Manon" as a bonus disk to Manon? Kind of an epilogue. Might be fun.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Florestan said:


> I did a quick look at the ones which were live linked on Wikipedia's Massenet Operas page. Of them, these two look interesting: Esclarmonde and Le Cid. Alas, no Beverly Sills for these.
> 
> Hey, why don't they use "Le Portrait de Manon" as a bonus disk to Manon? Kind of an epilogue. Might be fun.


Esclarmonde is a masterpiece, Dame Joan has a superb recording.
As for Le Cid : Bumbry/ Domingo :tiphat:


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## Figleaf (Jun 10, 2014)

Pugg said:


> Esclarmonde is a masterpiece, Dame Joan has a superb recording.
> As for Le Cid : Bumbry/ Domingo :tiphat:


I believe Domingo is the only tenor to have recorded the role of Rodrigue complete- if anyone knows differently, I'd be interested to hear who the alternatives are!


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Figleaf said:


> I believe Domingo is the only tenor to have recorded the role of Rodrigue complete- if anyone knows differently, I'd be interested to hear who the alternatives are!


The only one (besides you Figleaf) who knows, will be Simon Templer, I guess


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## Figleaf (Jun 10, 2014)

Pugg said:


> The only one (besides you Figleaf) who knows, will be Simon Templer, I guess


Yes, where on earth does he find all this great obscure stuff... I guess we'll have to ask the man himself!


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## Meyerbeer Smith (Mar 25, 2016)

Figleaf said:


> I believe Domingo is the only tenor to have recorded the role of Rodrigue complete- if anyone knows differently, I'd be interested to hear who the alternatives are!


Merritt has - or nearly; the St Jacques scene is shortened. (http://listserv.bccls.org/cgi-bin/wa?A2=OPERA-L;rxybxw;19991029133325-0400E)

The best Rodrigue I've heard is Alagna. (I'm not counting Thill, because he didn't record the whole work.) The Marseille / Paris recordings have some cuts.


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## Meyerbeer Smith (Mar 25, 2016)

Figleaf said:


> Yes, where on earth does he find all this great obscure stuff... I guess we'll have to ask the man himself!


Online - YouTube; House of Opera (www.operapassion.com/); Premiereopera Italy (http://premiereopera.net/); Opera-club.net. (That last link seems to be down.)

For background info, www.artlyriquefr.fr (as Figleaf knows) and www.gallica.bnf.fr.

Carnets sur Sol's (http://operacritiques.free.fr/css/) posts on French opera have alerted me to a lot of good stuff. That's how I came across Paladilhe.

I also read a lot!


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

I haven't a favorite Massenet opera yet because I have only tried two (Cendrillon and Manon). Musically neither does it for me. The Cendrillon is too dark for me, much prefer Rossini's Cenerentola, bright and cherry. Manon is fine with Beverly Sills, but the story is rather depressing--a young life ruined.

However, remaining open minded about Massenet, I scoped out things and determined that Le Cid and Esclarmonde had good story lines and musically had something to offer. 

So I proudly announce I won a nice copy of the Domingo/Bumbry recording of Le Cid off Ebay for a very good price. Thanks for the encouragement!


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## Figleaf (Jun 10, 2014)

SimonTemplar said:


> Merritt has - or nearly; the St Jacques scene is shortened. (http://listserv.bccls.org/cgi-bin/wa?A2=OPERA-L;rxybxw;19991029133325-0400E)
> 
> The best Rodrigue I've heard is Alagna. (I'm not counting Thill, because he didn't record the whole work.) The Marseille / Paris recordings have some cuts.


Wow, thanks! I'd certainly be interested in those. I've been rather underwhelmed by Chris Merritt in the past, but from my viewpoint he has the advantages of a) not being Domingo and b) having Michele Command and Gabriel Bacquier as his co-stars. I assume Bacquier is le Roi- I wonder whether he gets to sing 'C'est vous que l'on benit', which is a lovely aria but which artlyriquefr says was not in the original edition. That site has Jean Noté's gorgeously sung recording, the first record of his I ever heard (on The Record of Singing volume 1). In fact, the amazing quality of singing in those sound files is the reason why I was nervous about buying a modern recording. My goodness, the style, the phrasing and the _sheer voice_ of those old French tenors- Affre, Thill, Franz, even Alvarez who is too baritonal for my taste- there's no way I could bear to hear this stunning music get the Three Tenors treatment!


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## Meyerbeer Smith (Mar 25, 2016)

And the basses! Here's Arthur Endrèze singing "Promesse de mon avenir" from _Le roi de Lahore_:

http://artlyriquefr.fr/son/Odeon 123021 - Endreze - Roi de Lahore.mp3


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## Figleaf (Jun 10, 2014)

SimonTemplar said:


> And the basses! Here's Arthur Endrèze singing "Promesse de mon avenir" from _Le roi de Lahore_:
> 
> http://artlyriquefr.fr/son/Odeon 123021 - Endreze - Roi de Lahore.mp3


That's really beautiful. Personally, I'm a big fan of Maurice Renaud: he's even more passionate and virile in this aria. What do you think of the Italian recording attributed to Antonio Cotogni? I think it sounds good enough to be the work of an eminent (if aged) singer, though the further back in time one goes, the harder it is to make useful comparisons between any given singer and his peers. It's a really interesting example of nineteenth century Italian singing with all its rhythmic freedom and finely nuanced phrasing- although I think Renaud has the perfect balance between declamation and lyricism.

'Cotogni' sings 'O casto fior':






Renaud:


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## Meyerbeer Smith (Mar 25, 2016)

Figleaf said:


> That's really beautiful. Personally, I'm a big fan of Maurice Renaud: he's even more passionate and virile in this aria. What do you think of the Italian recording attributed to Antonio Cotogni? I think it sounds good enough to be the work of an eminent (if aged) singer, though the further back in time one goes, the harder it is to make useful comparisons between any given singer and his peers. It's a really interesting example of nineteenth century Italian singing with all its rhythmic freedom and finely nuanced phrasing- although I think Renaud has the perfect balance between declamation and lyricism.
> 
> 'Cotogni' sings 'O casto fior':
> 
> ...


I prefer Endrèze! Have you heard him sing Hamlet?

It's hard for me to get an idea of Cotogni's singing. He sounds as though he's hitting a lot of flat notes, probably because of the technology - or, as you say, his age (77 - not the first flush of youth!). Still, it's amazing that there are recordings of singers who were active in the mid 19th century. There are recordings of de Reszke singing "O paradis", but it's almost completely unlistenable - like trying to hear through a storm at sea, in a howling gale!

Hmm! Wikipedia says 'O casto fior' is sung by Francesco Tamagno's brother Giovanni (b. 1850s???).

Still, what an impressive list of roles Cotogni sang - nearly 160. A lot of these operas and composers have vanished - who, for instance, are Amadei, Battista, Bevenuti, Bottesini, Cagnoni, Capocci, Centolani, Cohen, De Ferrari, Kashperov, Lenepveu and Pedrotti? It really suggests that what we know of Italian opera, even with Opera Rara's resurrection of bel canto composers, is only the tip of the iceberg.


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## Figleaf (Jun 10, 2014)

SimonTemplar said:


> I prefer Endrèze! Have you heard him sing Hamlet?
> 
> It's hard for me to get an idea of Cotogni's singing. He sounds as though he's hitting a lot of flat notes, probably because of the technology - or, as you say, his age (77 - not the first flush of youth!). Still, it's amazing that there are recordings of singers who were active in the mid 19th century. There are recordings of de Reszke singing "O paradis", but it's almost completely unlistenable - like trying to hear through a storm at sea, in a howling gale!
> 
> ...


While we're talking about the Mapleson cylinders, it's worth bearing in mind that not all of them sound equally bad. Alvarez's 'O noble lame' is not at all difficult fo listen to and it's a beautiful performance as well. I think we can tell quite a bit about de Reszke from the 'O paradis'- his excellent phrasing, the surprising amount on falsetto on the high notes- even if the acoustic of live recordings made with the wrong technology for live recordings don't really allow us to hear his voice the way it could have been heard in a good quality studio recording from the period. (And in the duet he is totally obliterated by Lucienne Breval- she might be nearer to the horn, but it's tempting to think that he didn't have a huge voice.) I was very disappointed in the sound quality of the Maplesons when I first heard them on the Symposium CD, but Marston has really improved the sound of that 'O paradis' on 'Meyerbeer on Record', where I'm guessing you heard it. Regarding that 'O casto fior' and its companion piece (a popular song in Italian) I think Symposium's bold attribution of them to Cotogni was based on a similarity in timbre to the voice heard on his one authenticated recording, the 'I mulattieri' with Marconi, as well as a certain amount of foolhardy optimism! No doubt the 'it's Cotogni' camp were dealt a blow by the rediscovery of the Tamagno 'Si, pel ciel' a few years ago, which is an amazing performance by the tenor and a relatively unimpressive one by the mystery baritone, whoever he was. Likewise the attribution to Tamagno's brother is fairly speculative, based on who was most likely to have been hanging out with the great tenor at his house. I just thought I'd put that 'O cast fior' out there, as an interesting record! Now I'll listen to some more Endreze and see if that Hamlet is on youtube.

Sorry for the thread drift...


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## Meyerbeer Smith (Mar 25, 2016)

GregMitchell said:


> He certainly chose a wide range of subjects. Personally I find all the over the top exoticism in such as *Esclarmonde* and *Le Roi de Lahore* all a bit much to take. I had the Sutherland recordings on LP, but when I finally got rid of my LPs felt no great inclination to get them on CD. And, to be honest, I have similar problems with *Thais*. I have the Fleming recording, and it makes the very best case for the opera imaginable I think, but I do find all that quasi-religious hokum a bit ridiculous, for all that it has some gorgeous moments, not least her glorious aria _Dis-moi que je suis belle_, which Fleming sings divinely.
> 
> *Manon* I love because it so perfectly captures the spirit of the L'Abbe Prevost novel (far better in fact that the Puccini opera), and because it is so quintessentially French; *Werther* because Massenet so well understands Goethe's youthful Romanticism. I also like *Cendrillon*, with its magical gossamer score (much as I like and enjoy Rossini's *La Cenerentola*, it is Massenet who brings us closer to Perrault) and the wonderful high spirits of *Cherubin*.
> 
> Your list doesn't include *Don Quichotte* by the way, which has a marvelous role for a bass, and is well worth seeking out.


I listened to _Don Quichotte_ on the weekend - and _Herodiade_ and _Le portrait de Manon_ and _Le jongleur_. _Don Q_ might be loosely plotted, but damme if it ain't affecting. I cried at the end of Act IV. Which I don't normally do with opera.


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