# Bernstein's Beethoven or Karajan's Beethoven?



## BenG (Aug 28, 2018)

There is a lot of debate here about this subject. I personally prefer Bernstein for the 9th, 7th, and 3rd and Karajan for 5, 6 and 8. 
What do you think?


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

It depends on which recordings, of course, I generally prefer Karajan. In fact the Karajan 77 ninth can possibly be the greatest ever of this symphony. The Bernstein NYPO set is fresher than his later recordings. For the Missa Solemnis I have both but would go to Karajan for his fabulous soloists. Fidelio again while Bernstein is interesting with Janowitz, Karajan's with Denresch and Vickers would be my all time choice.


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## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

Karajan 1963 over Bernstein any time. And HvK made a great set in glorious mono that puts to rest any question of why he was considered so incredible. And much to my surprise, you can have it for $6 from Arkivmusic unless it's a mistake on their website.


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## Oldhoosierdude (May 29, 2016)

duplicate sorry


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## Oldhoosierdude (May 29, 2016)

mbhaub said:


> Karajan 1963 over Bernstein any time. And HvK made a great set in glorious mono that puts to rest any question of why he was considered so incredible. And much to my surprise, you can have it for $6 from Arkivmusic unless it's a mistake on their website.
> View attachment 113329


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## Brahmsianhorn (Feb 17, 2017)

1 - Bernstein VPO
2 - Karajan ‘62
3 - Karajan ‘84
4 - Karajan ‘62
5 - Bernstein ‘76 Amnesty concert
6 - Bernstein VPO
7 - Bernstein VPO
8 - Karajan ‘62
9 - Bernstein VPO


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## wkasimer (Jun 5, 2017)

Oldhoosierdude said:


> Whatever that was it is gone now.


Still on this page:

http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/listPage.jsp?list_id=5281&page_size=100


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## Brahmsianhorn (Feb 17, 2017)

DavidA said:


> In fact the Karajan 77 ninth can possibly be the greatest ever of this symphony.


If you are talking about the first three movements I could agree, at least among stereo accounts. The problem is whereas Karajan relishes the ferocity of the beginning movements and the tranquility of the adagio, the final movement's emotions of freedom and joy seem to have always eluded him. Everything is kept under tight control, and even the sound of the choir is recessed. The choral Ode to Joy statement is a letdown in his versions, which is a fatal flaw for any 9th. Bernstein's VPO account is a better overall rendition of the work from beginning to end, even though the soprano has a raw tone. (I do credit Karajan for his soloists)


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## MatthewWeflen (Jan 24, 2019)

Bernstein's VPO cycle puts me to sleep, it is so plodding. Karajan's 1977 is my favorite, though of course 1963 is good as well. They strike a nice middle ground between the Klemperer/Bernstein snooze parade and the Gardiner/Chailly hurry-sick tick-tock readings.


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## WildThing (Feb 21, 2017)

Neither one are among my absolute favorites in Beethoven. I only have Karajan's 1963 cycle and Bernstein's 1964 NYPO Eroica and his Missa Solemnis with the Concertgebouw.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Brahmsianhorn said:


> If you are talking about the first three movements I could agree, at least among stereo accounts. The problem is whereas Karajan relishes the ferocity of the beginning movements and the tranquility of the adagio, the final movement's emotions of freedom and joy seem to have always eluded him. Everything is kept under tight control, and even the sound of the choir is recessed. The choral Ode to Joy statement is a letdown in his versions, which is a fatal flaw for any 9th. Bernstein's VPO account is a better overall rendition of the work from beginning to end, even though the soprano has a raw tone. (I do credit Karajan for his soloists)


I don't agree at all. The last movement is exceedingly well - 'drunk with fire' as Schiller's ode says. I cannot see this point of 'tight control' - surely that is the conductor's job otherwise things turn flabby. Reiner also keeps everything under tight control in his thrilling account of the ninth.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

mbhaub said:


> Karajan 1963 over Bernstein any time. And HvK made a great set in glorious mono that puts to rest any question of why he was considered so incredible. And much to my surprise, you can have it for $6 from Arkivmusic unless it's a mistake on their website.
> View attachment 113329


Well worth investigating although the 63 cycle is generally better apart from a superb Pastoral from this set


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## Brahmsian Colors (Sep 16, 2016)

By set: 1963 Karajan


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## WildThing (Feb 21, 2017)

Aye, I forgot I have Bernstein in the 3rd and 5th Piano Concertos with Rudolf Serkin. Scintillating recordings!


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

WildThing said:


> Neither one are among my absolute favorites in Beethoven.


same here....Bernstein can be good, tho - Sym #7, #3 Eroica, Leonore #3....


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

Bernstein 100% for me.
Karajan is too slick and cold for my taste.


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## Brahmsianhorn (Feb 17, 2017)

DavidA said:


> I cannot see this point of 'tight control' - surely that is the conductor's job otherwise things turn flabby.


He keeps a lid on the emotions, especially in 1963. But even in 1977, when the choir enters with the Ode to Joy theme the energy seems to actually drop as opposed to increase like it should.

Believe me, I have listened to this recording many a time over the decades ready to dub it the "go-to" stereo 9th only to be let down by the choral finale. I have to recommend Fricsay and Bernstein VPO above this version. I even recommend the 1972 Bohm above it, which still provides the requisite feeling and energy despite slower tempos.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Brahmsianhorn said:


> He keeps a lid on the emotions, especially in 1963. But even in 1977, when the choir enters with the Ode to Joy theme the energy seems to actually drop as opposed to increase like it should.
> 
> Believe me, I have listened to this recording many a time over the decades ready to dub it the "go-to" stereo 9th only to be let down by the choral finale. I have to recommend Fricsay and Bernstein VPO above this version. I even recommend the 1972 Bohm above it, which still provides the requisite feeling and energy despite slower tempos.


Not at all. I have to disagree completely. I have also listened to this recording many times (and his others too and many other recordings) and it is electrifying. I'm afraid we must see things very differently. I just looked up the 'rough guide' to music and it says 'there is a real sense of individual talent making common cause to exhilarating effect.' So I am not alone in my view.


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## Brahmsianhorn (Feb 17, 2017)

DavidA said:


> Not at all. I have to disagree completely. I have also listened to this recording many times (and his others too and many other recordings) and it is electrifying. I'm afraid we must see things very differently. I just looked up the 'rough guide' to music and it says 'there is a real sense of individual talent making common cause to exhilarating effect.' So I am not alone in my view.


Well, I just looked it up on Amazon and their reviewer states exactly what I just said about the choral finale being a disappointment, so mine is not a lone opinion either:

_In the finale, as in his 1963 recording, *he seems to prefer a very light, backward-balanced choral sound that will not appeal to those who believe that Beethoven meant the words to be heard*. That reservation aside, this performance can be recommended as typical of Karajan and the Berlin Philharmonic Orchestra in top form_. --David Hurwitz



Brahmsianhorn said:


> If you are talking about the first three movements I could agree, at least among stereo accounts. The problem is whereas Karajan relishes the ferocity of the beginning movements and the tranquility of the adagio, *the final movement's emotions of freedom and joy seem to have always eluded him. Everything is kept under tight control, and even the sound of the choir is recessed.* The choral Ode to Joy statement is a letdown in his versions, which is a fatal flaw for any 9th. Bernstein's VPO account is a better overall rendition of the work from beginning to end, even though the soprano has a raw tone. (I do credit Karajan for his soloists)


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Brahmsianhorn said:


> Well, I just looked it up on Amazon and their reviewer states exactly what I just said about the choral finale being a disappointment, so mine is not a lone opinion either:
> 
> _In the finale, as in his 1963 recording, he seems to prefer a very light, backward-balanced choral sound that will not appeal to those who believe that Beethoven meant the words to be heard. That reservation aside, this performance can be recommended as typical of Karajan and the Berlin Philharmonic Orchestra in top form_. --David Hurwitz


Interesting how critics differ over the same recording. Actually someone else remarked how he daringly blended together orchestra and chorus to give the effect Beethoven might have intended. Here's another which says, 'Karajan created a stunning sound: modern then, timeless today.' No wonder we differ.
Never mind, friend, you stick to what you like and I'll stick to what pleases me. Agree to differ! :tiphat:


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## Brahmsianhorn (Feb 17, 2017)

DavidA said:


> Actually someone else remarked how he daringly blended together orchestra and chorus to give the effect Beethoven might have intended.


This comment seems to agree with the observation that the chorus sound is relatively light but paints that as a positive. Are you saying that is what you prefer?

I will mention a recording where the opposite is the case: Solti with the CSO has a very strong, present chorus where every word is distinct. That is more my cup of tea.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Brahmsianhorn said:


> This comment seems to agree with the observation that the chorus sound is relatively light but paints that as a positive. Are you saying that is what you prefer?
> 
> I will mention a recording where the opposite is the case: Solti with the CSO has a very strong, present chorus where every word is distinct. That is more my cup of tea.


Just saying that imo the 1977 9th is perhaps the finest ever recorded. It has been described as 'legendary' by some commentators.I can't see your point that the chorus is 'light'. Not on my equipment anyway. It blends with the orchestra which is the effect one would get in the concert hall where you can hear what's going on in the orchestra. I can also hear the words fine on my equipment.

Must confess to my mind Solti is not a great Beethoven conductor but each to his own.


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## Brahmsianhorn (Feb 17, 2017)

DavidA said:


> Just saying that imo the 1977 9th is perhaps the finest ever recorded. It has been described as 'legendary' by some commentators.I can't see your point that the chorus is ';light'. Not on my equipment anyway. Must confess to my mind Solti is not a great Beethoven conductor but each to hi own.


And as I stated I agree with you as to the first three movements but am let down by the choral finale. I am being very specific in my comments. You are being very general. Do you base your opinion on listening or on the opinions of others?

Solti's chops as a Beethovenian have nothing to do with my point about the CSO chorus, which is magnificent in both his recordings. It is strange to me that you are so assertive about your opinions when sometimes you have not even heard the recordings being mentioned.


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## S P Summers (Dec 23, 2016)

Definitely Karajan. Bernstein is terrible.


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## Martyn Harper (Jan 27, 2016)

Karajan - my favourite interpreter of Beethoven’s symphonies.


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

I just picked up a copy of Berstein with Wiener Phil. doing the 3rd, we'll see if I like it.


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## Xisten267 (Sep 2, 2018)

Captainnumber36 said:


> I just picked up a copy of Berstein with Wiener Phil. doing the 3rd, we'll see if I like it.


Too slow and lacking fire in my opinion. The "true" Bernstein recording of the Eroica for me is the one below, with the New York Philharmonic:


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

Allerius said:


> Too slow and lacking fire in my opinion. The "true" Bernstein recording of the Eroica for me is the one below, with the New York Philharmonic:


I'll put it on and report back after I finish up Beethoven's Piano Concertos 1 and 3.


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

Allerius said:


> Too slow and lacking fire in my opinion. The "true" Bernstein recording of the Eroica for me is the one below, with the New York Philharmonic:


I just started it up, it's more majestic slowed down like this I feel.


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

...kind of like Brendel's take on Beethoven's Piano Sonatas. Very Un-Beethoven in spirit, but quite a nice change imo!


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## Olias (Nov 18, 2010)

I prefer Bernstein/Wiener but I enjoy it the most when I can watch the video footage. I just love watching LB enjoy life.

Personally though I prefer the Mackerras/Royal Liverpool Phil cycle over all others.


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

Olias said:


> I prefer Bernstein/Wiener but I enjoy it the most when I can watch the video footage. I just love watching LB enjoy life.
> 
> Personally though I prefer the Mackerras/Royal Liverpool Phil cycle over all others.


LB/Wiener have a Complete Cycle?


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## Olias (Nov 18, 2010)

Captainnumber36 said:


> LB/Wiener have a Complete Cycle?


https://www.amazon.com/Beethoven-Sy...coding=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=SHSBDP33SGQ1N6A8GK33


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

Olias, do you hear what I'm saying when I compare this Eroica to Brendel's takes on Beethoven's PS? More refined, less madness? I enjoy that quality, but I also enjoy intense versions, probably how Beethoven would have performed it.


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## SARDiver (Jan 6, 2014)

I like Karajan's Beethoven cycle the best. Szell a close second.


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## Olias (Nov 18, 2010)

Captainnumber36 said:


> Olias, do you hear what I'm saying when I compare this Eroica to Brendel's takes on Beethoven's PS? More refined, less madness? I enjoy that quality, but I also enjoy intense versions, probably how Beethoven would have performed it.


Absolutely. Its why I have so many versions I enjoy. Mackerras literally FLIES with the 1st movement of the Eroica and its very exciting, but sometimes I like a more majestic approach. Its all "horses for courses".


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Brahmsianhorn said:


> And as I stated I agree with you as to the first three movements but am let down by the choral finale. I am being very specific in my comments. You are being very general. Do you base your opinion on listening or on the opinions of others?
> 
> Solti's chops as a Beethovenian have nothing to do with my point about the CSO chorus, which is magnificent in both his recordings. It is strange to me that you are so assertive about your opinions when sometimes you have not even heard the recordings being mentioned.


Based on my own listening of course. Why do you imply otherwise? I think you might be insulted if I said the same to you? And here's another thing when you say I haven't heard Solti's Beethoven. Amazing you know better than me what I have listened to and what I haven't. You appear to think you have the right to say anything. Of course I have heard Solti's Beethoven. I have some of it. Of course I have heard his ninth. I heard it when it first came out and I've heard it since. I did not also make any remark about the CSO chorus as you appear to assume. Please do not assume when you make your statements.


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## Reichstag aus LICHT (Oct 25, 2010)

SARDiver said:


> I like Karajan's Beethoven cycle the best.


Which one? (They're all pretty darned good, mind you, including the mono cycle with the Philharmonia.)


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## Moriarty (Feb 8, 2019)

Karajan, without a doubt.


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## LAS (Dec 12, 2014)

Is it possible to get a recording of Bernstein's last performance of the 5th at Tanglewood? I heard it on NPR and it was just mind-blowing. I did some investigation and think I found that it is not available to the public. Does NPR ever let go of its recordings?


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## S P Summers (Dec 23, 2016)

Reichstag aus LICHT said:


> Which one? (They're all pretty darned good, mind you, including the mono cycle with the Philharmonia.)


I like the Karajan/EMI recordings from the early 1950's (for symphonies #1 - #8)

9th- 1963 Karajan/DG recording.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Reichstag aus LICHT said:


> Which one? (They're all pretty darned good, mind you, including the mono cycle with the Philharmonia.)


I'm listening to the 1963 cycle and it is really tremendously exciting. They all have good points but of course in a single cycle no conductor is likely to come up trumps with every one. I'd substitute the 50s or 77 6th for the 63 6th but otherwise 63 stands up pretty well.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Moriarty said:


> Karajan, without a doubt.


His films look a bit corny now but they were cutting edge when they first appeared. Terrific perfraomnce of ninth


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## Machiavel (Apr 12, 2010)

Karajan all the way. Never cared for Bernstein overly emotional, sentimental approach whatever the works might be even his Mahler... I think he did way more to explain us about music than be a conductor. I finf him second-rate conductor, a good step below most great known conductors


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## Merl (Jul 28, 2016)

Karajan by a country mile. The 63 and 77 cycles are superb, the 80s cycle is way better remastered to remove the glassy sound and uneven balances, the 77 live Japan set is enjoyable and the Philharmonia set is good too. Bernstein's NYPO set is lively but poorly played and the VPO set is slow, dreary and schmaltzy. Of the 100+ cycles I have that set is as close to the bottom of the pile as you can get (with Fedoseyev, Kegel, Polizzi and a few others). Love Bernstein in other cycles but Beethoven symphonies were not his forte. Strangely his Beethoven Overtures were always really good.


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## wkasimer (Jun 5, 2017)

Merl said:


> Karajan by a country mile. The 63 and 77 cycles are superb, the 80s cycle is way better remastered to remove the glassy sound and uneven balances, the 77 live Japan set is enjoyable and the Philharmonia set is good too. Bernstein's NYPO set is lively but poorly played and the VPO set is slow, dreary and schmaltzy. Of the 100+ cycles I have that set is as close to the bottom of the pile as you can get (with Fedoseyev, Kegel, Polizzi and a few others). Love Bernstein in other cycles but Beethoven symphonies were not his forte. Strangely his Beethoven Overtures were always really good.


While I haven't heard Bernstein's Beethoven in a while, and certainly prefer Karajan's, I have a somewhat higher opinion of both of Bernstein's sets. IIRC, the Eroica with the NYPhil is particularly good.


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## Merl (Jul 28, 2016)

wkasimer said:


> While I haven't heard Bernstein's Beethoven in a while, and certainly prefer Karajan's, I have a somewhat higher opinion of both of Bernstein's sets. IIRC, the Eroica with the NYPhil is particularly good.


I agree about the Eroica but the rest of the New York cycle is rough (even for someone who loves Mackerras' first rough RLPO set). I'm not saying the NY set is bad (it's not) but with better playing it could have been far better.


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## flamencosketches (Jan 4, 2019)

I'm not a fan at all of Bernstein's Beethoven IMO, and after seeing that video of him talking about what a poor composer Beethoven is in every respect but form (a bit of truth in it, but clearly hyperbolic) I have started to believe that he just doesn't "get" Beethoven. I realize how ludicrous that sounds coming from an amateur like me about Bernstein of all people, but it really comes off like that in what I've heard of his recordings. 

Karajan's Beethoven I love. I understand that he is not exactly well regarded here, but I think even some of his detractors would admit that he's at his best in Beethoven. I have the '77 set. My favorites are the Eroica, the 7th and 8th, and the 1st is the best I've heard of it. The whole thing is beautiful though. It's my go to, the only other set I have in my collection is Krips and London and I prefer Karajan/Berlin 9 times out of 10.


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## MatthewWeflen (Jan 24, 2019)

flamencosketches said:


> I'm not a fan at all of Bernstein's Beethoven IMO, and after seeing that video of him talking about what a poor composer Beethoven is in every respect but form (a bit of truth in it, but clearly hyperbolic) I have started to believe that he just doesn't "get" Beethoven. I realize how ludicrous that sounds coming from an amateur like me about Bernstein of all people, but it really comes off like that in what I've heard of his recordings.
> 
> Karajan's Beethoven I love. I understand that he is not exactly well regarded here, but I think even some of his detractors would admit that he's at his best in Beethoven. I have the '77 set. My favorites are the Eroica, the 7th and 8th, and the 1st is the best I've heard of it. The whole thing is beautiful though. It's my go to, the only other set I have in my collection is Krips and London and I prefer Karajan/Berlin 9 times out of 10.


I love Karajan 77, and that is my desert island cycle as well. If you haven't yet, you should check out the Dolby Atmos Blu-Ray Audio that was recently released.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Listening to the 63 set of Iarajan I am again impressed with the power and freshness of the music making. Interesting that in the 1977 set there are quite a number of differences. The 1977 Eroica is much faster. So much for those who say that HvK conducted everything the same. The one performance that is a decided improvement on 1963 is the pastoral symphony, which is given a fabulous performance in 1977


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## MatthewWeflen (Jan 24, 2019)

DavidA said:


> Listening to the 63 set of Iarajan I am again impressed with the power and freshness of the music making. Interesting that in the 1977 set there are quite a number of differences. The 1977 Eroica is much faster. So much for those who say that HvK conducted everything the same. The one performance that is a decided improvement on 1963 is the pastoral symphony, which is given a fabulous performance in 1977


 There are subtle improvements throughout, mainly in terms of tempii (faster) and in terms of instrument miking (especially timpani, and especially in 3, 7, and 9). The symphonies that improve most as a whole are 6 and 9.


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## Triplets (Sep 4, 2014)

LB was a great Conductor but Beethoven wasn't his strong suit. Karajan's Beethoven is excellent. I never understood detractors that described it as "Chocolate Beethoven".


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

I attempted another listen to my 1963 Karajan box, Symphony No. 7, and had a revelation: the music seemed to "jump" out of the speakers, with very forceful dynamics. It seemed almost aggressive in its gesture. Then I surmised that this was _Karajan._

His personality was apparently so strong and forceful that he was able to bring this out in the Berlin musicians. I suspect that he was not a "lax" conductor, and may have even yelled and intimidated the orchestra; at any rate, the orchestra seems to be under his total control at every second.

This, I think, is the appeal of Karajan. It was his personality first and foremost, and the sense of unrelenting forcefulness, like the acceleration of a fast sports car.

Also, check out this conducting gesture, from the 1963 booklet:


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

millionrainbows said:


> I attempted another listen to my 1963 Karajan box, Symphony No. 7, and had a revelation: the music seemed to "jump" out of the speakers, with *very forceful dynamics*. It seemed almost aggressive in its gesture. Then I surmised that this was _Karajan._
> 
> His personality was apparently so strong and forceful that he was able to bring this out in the Berlin musicians. I suspect that he was not a "lax" conductor, and *may have even yelled and intimidated the orchestra;* at any rate, the orchestra seems to be under his total control at every second.
> 
> ...


Interesting that we've had a guy who says the opposite over and over again! :lol:

I'm not going there as I don't want to start that up again, but just to point out that apparently Karajan never yelled at his musicians - he believed in control, of course, but he said that if you yelled at musicians or lost your temper it made them more nervous and they played worse. Someone said, "he has endless patience" in getting what he wanted.


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## MatthewWeflen (Jan 24, 2019)

DavidA said:


> Interesting that we've had a guy who says the opposite over and over again! :lol:
> 
> I'm not going there as I don't want to start that up again, but just to point out that apparently Karajan never yelled at his musicians - he believed in control, of course, but he said that if you yelled at musicians or lost your temper it made them more nervous and they played worse. Someone said, "he has endless patience" in getting what he wanted.


Yeah, I have not read any anecdotes nor seen any footage of Karajan yelling at musicians. Every account I've read stressed his formality in front of the group, contrasted with his warm personal correspondence outside of the group.


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## joen_cph (Jan 17, 2010)

I prefer Karajan 63 and Bernstein/NYPO, and dislike Karajan/DDD and Bernstein/VPO (skipped it);

as for Karajan/mono I skipped it too, and the '77 is now stored a bit away from the rest of the collection.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

MatthewWeflen said:


> Yeah, I have not read any anecdotes nor seen any footage of Karajan yelling at musicians. Every account I've read stressed his formality in front of the group, contrasted with his warm personal correspondence outside of the group.


Funny, I can easily imagine him screaming _"Achtung!"_ or _"Schnell! Schnell!"_


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

millionrainbows said:


> Funny, I can easily imagine him screaming _"Achtung!"_ or _"Schnell! Schnell!"_


No he wasn't the sergeant major type. Wrong personality type!


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## MatthewWeflen (Jan 24, 2019)

millionrainbows said:


> Funny, I can easily imagine him screaming _"Achtung!"_ or _"Schnell! Schnell!"_


I just don't understand what you're driving at here. It must be too subtle (and germane) a point for me to grasp. Perhaps you should repeat it again?


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## amfortas (Jun 15, 2011)

MatthewWeflen said:


> I just don't understand what you're driving at here. It must be too subtle (and germane) a point for me to grasp. Perhaps you should repeat it again?


I fear it was less subtle than you imagine.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

amfortas said:


> I fear it was less subtle than you imagine.


Not really! :lol:


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## MatthewWeflen (Jan 24, 2019)

amfortas said:


> I fear it was less subtle than you imagine.











Perhaps _my_ statement was too subtle...


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## amfortas (Jun 15, 2011)

MatthewWeflen said:


> View attachment 114042
> 
> 
> Perhaps _my_ statement was too subtle...


No, you were fine. Not one of my more astute moments.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

I'm sorry, Karajan fans. It was an attempt at humor.


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## amfortas (Jun 15, 2011)

millionrainbows said:


> I'm sorry, Karajan fans. It was an attempt at humor.


We've all learned something today: Never attempt humor.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

amfortas said:


> We've all learned something today: Never attempt humor.


...So I was visiting Karajan's grave with a friend who lived nearby. Something there smelled funny, so I asked him about it.

"Don't worry. That's just Herbert, deconducting."

Oh wait, that's not the way it's supposed to go...


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## Brahmsianhorn (Feb 17, 2017)

millionrainbows said:


> This, I think, is the appeal of Karajan. It was his personality first and foremost, and the sense of unrelenting forcefulness, like the acceleration of a fast sports car.


And you just summarized why Karajan does NOT appeal to me. Maybe for a listen or two, but not the recordings I return to frequently. That would be another list of conductors headed by Furtwängler.

Unrelenting forcefulness...for some people that is how they roll. Hence the appeal of Karajan I suppose.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

KenOC said:


> ...So I was visiting Karajan's grave with a friend who lived nearby. Something there smelled funny, so I asked him about it.
> 
> "Don't worry. That's just Herbert, deconducting."
> 
> Oh wait, that's not the way it's supposed to go...


When I heard it it was Bach decomposing.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

millionrainbows said:


> I'm sorry, Karajan fans. It was an attempt at humor.


When you have to tell people that you know it was a damp squib! :lol:


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## Hermastersvoice (Oct 15, 2018)

Klemperer. Klemperer, all the way. For the inevitability of the interpretations, for the relentless manner of the music, for the persuasive argument. Questions such as too forceful or too soft, become meaningless when the music is stripped to its bare essentials, to its core.


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