# Non "western" classical music....



## Selby (Nov 17, 2012)

Hello all.

I have not been able to find a thread on here about non "western" classical music. We could go with "world" classical music if you prefer. I am not particularly fond of either expression.

I would really like to begin delving deeper into the classical music histories of the world that did not stem from the European traditions. This is such a large and diverse world I am not sure even where to start.

I have been listening to Alim and Fargana Qasimov's recording Spiritual Music of Azerbeijan and enjoying it immensely - "deeply spiritual recordings of Azeri classical mugham and lyrical bardic songs."

Does any one have any resources they could point me to? Any particular recommendations of pieces, composers, or recordings?

There is so much to tackle; I would like to do it with some cultural sensitivity and not be blinded by any ethnocentrism that may be lurking within me.

This could be a very useful thread, I am totally open to renaming it (although not sure how - mods?) if others have similar interest.

regards,

M.


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## Head_case (Feb 5, 2010)

The search engine isn't very good is it.

There were threads about indian classical music sometime ago...the challenge is usually....when does nonwestern classical cross over into folk.

The distinction for classical music becomes rather arbitrary; however we recognise Smetana' Ma Vlast as folk influenced classical, rather than the other way around. Same for Bartok' and Myaskovsky and Lajtha's string quartets.

Hohvaness who was recently mentioned, is one example of a middle Asian origin composer (Azerbijian) who studird Guratic Indian music and derived his very idiom from this ethnic influence, rather than leaving it as influence alone.

Away from this trend, countless Japanese classical composers spring to mind...but I guess you were thinking of highly specialised forms of nonwestern music, independent of western equal temperament or traditions?

My past few years in China have opened me up to a stream of music I had never come across. This is one example:





You can find more of these contemporary classical compositions and performances on the threaded links.

Not saying its easy music, but there is a whole system of music devoted to this instrument, and similarly for the guzheng:






There is too much music out there for one person to like in one short lifetime. We can't listen to everything; we can choose carefully.


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## hello (Apr 5, 2013)

I can't get into Indian classical. A little too "exotic" for me I guess.


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## ahammel (Oct 10, 2012)

Head_case said:


> The search engine isn't very good is it.


Google's got you covered


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

If I had my way, I would call the _other_ classical music simply _Eastern classical musics_ (yes, plural, since there are strong differences from one culture to another) and be done with it. That eliminates both the negative _Non_ as well as the _Western_ - the term Non-Western always seems to me to be implied as the yardstick by which to measure the Eastern musics while simultaneously debasing those Eastern musics, which I find not only insular and jingoist, but if used as the yardstick is just as invalid (and useless) as trying to evaluate Wagner using Guillaume de Machaut as the yardstick.

Wikipedia has a moderately large article immediately after the sizable Western Classical Music entry. I think that each body of music is so vast, varied and covering so much time, that it is just too much to cover all at once without being cumbersome.

There have also been some well-argued yet to me Euro-Centric and silly arguments over the 'value' of those Eastern musics, much of them not at all about polyphony or development as thought of in the west. I don't see the point of such a "distinction" in evaluating great music from the East any more than I would advocate dumping all of the high development of Western music to be replaced by the Eastern musical premise or aesthetic or vice verso.

To not consider some of these musics, with traditions and development bringing the highest degree of refinement to that music, some of those with histories of greater antiquity than western musics, is I think either ignorant (as is unaware) or just close-minded.

P.s. PLEASE, not "World Music." That would have to include Yanni, for example


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## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

PetrB said:


> P.s. PLEASE, not "World Music." That would have to include Yanni, for example


He doesn't belong in that or any world, except the bargain used CD bin...

As for the OP, I have an interest in gagaku (and traditional Japanese folk musics as well) and gamelan. Indian music has never appealed to me very much, but I don't hold that against it in any way. It's a mistake, as PetrB says, to try to compare the Western classical tradition with other musical traditions, because largely, they're aiming for different goals entirely.


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## ScipioAfricanus (Jan 7, 2010)

Non Western Music is garbage. And that is being nice.


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## Ingélou (Feb 10, 2013)

I love the Indian music tailor-made for impatient Westerners like me (Ravi Shankar!) & I also like the Chinese & Japanese music I've sampled. Western Music from 1000 AD plus or minus also gives me the 'strange shivery' feeling. 
Like anyone whose 'heyday' was in the hippy 1970s, I have dabbled in the Eastern & Esoteric!


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## Unbennant (May 12, 2013)

I'm a big fan of Indian classical, I see someone has already mentioned it. It's true it's difficult to appreciate at first. We're not talking Ravi Shankar here!

BTW, why did OP enclose "western" in quotation marks? There IS such a thing, it's not imaginary.


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## science (Oct 14, 2010)

PetrB said:


> P.s. PLEASE, not "World Music." That would have to include Yanni, for example


Really? I'd've put him in "New Age."

"World Music" is an acceptable label to me, though I differentiate it into something like "World Classical and Folk" and "World Fusion or Crossover." The former category is for music that aspires to traditional authenticity, the latter for music that aspires to multiculturalism or modernity.

Labels aren't mutually exclusive of course. "World Fusion or Crossover" surely overlaps a lot with "New Age," though some New Age has really no "World" element at all. Like David Lanz, or Yuhki Kuramoto.

My experience of Yanni is limited to "Live at the Acropolis," but it seems entirely Western to me, so simply "New Age." And it seems ok.

By the way, for me none of these labels are terms of derision. In the classical music community, "New Age" comes awfully close to being one, but not for me. To me, they are two different (though somewhat overlapping) traditions, with classical music remaining focused in principle on performance and New Age being focused on recording, classical music focused on musical intellectualism, New Age focused on the creation of pleasant moods. That's my take on it anyway, so I personally feel there is nothing wrong with New Age musicians making music that doesn't even aspire to "classical" values. And, naturally, vice-versa. Of course the two communities scorn each other's values to some degree, but I try not to have values in these cases, and so be as free as possible from scorn.


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## brianvds (May 1, 2013)

Unbennant said:


> I'm a big fan of Indian classical, I see someone has already mentioned it. It's true it's difficult to appreciate at first. We're not talking Ravi Shankar here!


Heh, I thought Ravi Shankar IS Indian classical music. But then, I also rather like some of what the poor, maligned Yanni did...


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## science (Oct 14, 2010)

I've dipped my toes into the "traditional world music" a bit, and actually liked just about everything I've heard. Especially, the Nonesuch Explorer series is phenomenal. 

I've also dabbled in Indian classical music a bit, and I like it - it's certainly a clever, interesting tradition - but I sense that I'll need to put in some serious time when I turn to that music, and I'm not ready to do that yet, so I'm rather consciously holding off for now. I've been focused on classical music and jazz for perhaps a decade, and in perhaps another three or four years I anticipate feeling really good about my knowledge of those traditions and being ready to devote more attention to world music, theater music, and electronica. But I'm also hesitant because I've spent so, so much money on classical music and jazz, and I'm just not ready to let all that go yet and start over with other things. Shoot, I've got at least a dozen opera DVDs I haven't watched yet, and at least a couple dozen that I've only watched once. Speaking of all this, what the heck am I doing here? I've got stuff to do! I'd better get busy if I ever hope to get around to Indian classical music!


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## Unbennant (May 12, 2013)

brianvds said:


> Heh, I thought Ravi Shankar IS Indian classical music. But then, I also rather like some of what the poor, maligned Yanni did...


Yes, but like someone mentions above, Shankar has rather "western-friendly." I was thinking of vocal music, which sounds like this:






Don't suppose many would want to sit through that. I love this stuff, though.



ScipioAfricanus said:


> Non Western Music is garbage. And that is being nice.


How dare you, sir! he he he

By the way, a very interesting 6-minute feature on Indian classical music:

http://www.npr.org/2012/09/13/152687992/another-reason-to-skip-sleep-indian-classical-music


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## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

science said:


> My experience of Yanni is limited to "Live at the Acropolis," but it seems entirely Western to me, so simply "New Age." And it seems ok.
> 
> By the way, for me none of these labels are terms of derision. In the classical music community, "New Age" comes awfully close to being one, but not for me. To me, they are two different (though somewhat overlapping) traditions, with classical music remaining focused in principle on performance and New Age being focused on recording, classical music focused on musical intellectualism, New Age focused on the creation of pleasant moods. That's my take on it anyway, so I personally feel there is nothing wrong with New Age musicians making music that doesn't even aspire to "classical" values. And, naturally, vice-versa. Of course the two communities scorn each other's values to some degree, but I try not to have values in these cases, and so be as free as possible from scorn.


The I have problem with Yanni (and lots of New Age) is not that it's bland music, it's that it's bland music piled under mounds of self-important verbiage and pretentious nonsense, which makes it seem suspicious, like the "artists" involved know they're pandering.

I keep a collection of things I find on the internet that make me lose just a little bit more faith in humanity. This review has entered that list at an especially prominent position.
http://www.sputnikmusic.com/review/41622/Yanni-Truth-of-Touch/


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## Ingélou (Feb 10, 2013)

science said:


> Really? I'd've put him in "New Age."
> By the way, for me none of these labels are terms of derision. In the classical music community, "New Age" comes awfully close to being one, but not for me. To me, they are two different (though somewhat overlapping) traditions, with classical music remaining focused in principle on performance and New Age being focused on recording, classical music focused on musical intellectualism, New Age focused on the creation of pleasant moods. That's my take on it anyway, so I personally feel there is nothing wrong with New Age musicians making music that doesn't even aspire to "classical" values. And, naturally, vice-versa.


A very interesting post (in its entirety), science. For someone like me with little intensive knowledge of music - except possibly British & Irish traditional/folk - this is lucid & helpful. Just to add that 'New Age' is a useful style label - some folk fiddlers write or play traditional-style tunes with a New Age gloss or rhythm, and it's the easiest way to describe what they are doing.

As I type, I am listening to Unbennant's Indian vocal music & it's charming. I admit, I'd have to be doing something else (like typing!) in order to listen to it. I'd probably lose concentration if I just sat here, listening. But it's charming. However, the fact that I do like it so much makes me wonder ... it does sound a bit like the 'Indian film music' a university friend used to play to me!


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## Kieran (Aug 24, 2010)

Mahlerian said:


> I keep a collection of things I find on the internet that make me lose just a little bit more faith in humanity. This review has entered that list at an especially prominent position.
> http://www.sputnikmusic.com/review/41622/Yanni-Truth-of-Touch/


Seriously, what did I just read? That's awful! :lol:


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Mahlerian said:


> The I have problem with Yanni (and lots of New Age) is not that it's bland music, it's that it's bland music piled under mounds of self-important verbiage and pretentious nonsense, which makes it seem suspicious, like the "artists" involved know they're pandering.


And classical music is not "piled under mounds of self-important verbiage and pretentious nonsense"? Puhleeze! Yes, some of it's bland, too.

That said, perhaps I should be proud that I've never heard Yanni.


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## Kieran (Aug 24, 2010)

KenOC said:


> That said, perhaps I should be proud that I've never heard Yanni.


Maybe _glad _more than proud...


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## IBMchicago (May 16, 2012)

Not sure if this technically counts as classica,, but I did get into Qawwali around the time Nusrat Fateh Ali Khan died. The genre seems to have died with him and there is no great new artist who is nearly as popular as he, but the experience of listening to Qawwali is similar to that of hearing a Gospel choir.


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## Head_case (Feb 5, 2010)

Do "la mystère des voix bulgares" still count as Eastern classical (Thracean) music, as well as chants by the Shephardic Jews, or is world music now the in term for ....folk music marketed for thickwit eclectic wannabes in the west :lol:


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## brianvds (May 1, 2013)

Unbennant said:


> Yes, but like someone mentions above, Shankar has rather "western-friendly." I was thinking of vocal music, which sounds like this:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I rather like it, though the quality of the recording itself is a bit harsh. Doesn't sound all that fundamentally different from Shankar to me.


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## hello (Apr 5, 2013)

Unbennant said:


> Yes, but like someone mentions above, Shankar has rather "western-friendly." I was thinking of vocal music, which sounds like this:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I quite liked that. It reminds me of African traditional music, which I'm a fan of.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Recommended! Set aside half an hour...


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## hello (Apr 5, 2013)

It's kind of funny that indeterminate music was incredibly radical when it was introduced to WCM, but it's been practiced for centuries in ICM.


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## science (Oct 14, 2010)

Mahlerian said:


> The I have problem with Yanni (and lots of New Age) is not that it's bland music, it's that it's bland music piled under mounds of self-important verbiage and pretentious nonsense, which makes it seem suspicious, like the "artists" involved know they're pandering.
> 
> I keep a collection of things I find on the internet that make me lose just a little bit more faith in humanity. This review has entered that list at an especially prominent position.
> http://www.sputnikmusic.com/review/41622/Yanni-Truth-of-Touch/


It looks like a college freshman wrote that.


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## Selby (Nov 17, 2012)

Unbennant said:


> BTW, why did OP enclose "western" in quotation marks? There IS such a thing, it's not imaginary.


"Western culture, a term used very broadly to refer to a heritage of social norms, ethical values, traditional customs, belief systems, political systems, and specific artifacts and technologies that have some origin or association with Europe"

It would be pretty easy to challenge that it "IS such a thing." If you get down to inclusion and exclusion, I think you would find that what we know and refer to as "western" is fairly colloquial and would not stand-up to rigorous scrutiny.

Is it geographical? Is it cultural? Are we able to identify what "western" music is entirely in musical terms?

Alan Hovhaness was brought up earlier... He is from Armenia, does he count as "western"? Can Hovhaness' music be "western" if he is not? Vice a versa? Armenia is in the Caucasus region bordering Azerbaijan, where the Qasimovs are from in the OP. Their music clearly does not sound "western" to me, so what exactly is distinguishing it from Hovhaness?

Geographically Turkey is further west than Russia. Is Turkish classical music "western"? Why is it not when clearly Tchaikovsky, Prokofiev, Shost, and Scriabin are canonized in "western" classical music?

Where does Native American music fall? Folk? Is there really not a form of cultural imperialism at play as to when and why we categorize something as folk instead of classical?

I tried to be intentional in my wording in the OP, possibly to a fault. I wanted to create an atmosphere of respectful dialogue about different types of classical music while imposing as little of my cultural bias as possible.

Then again, my worldview is heavily influenced by theories of social constructionism, which is undoubtedly influencing this post, so maybe I just failed.

This is my meandering response as to why I put western in quotation marks... I do doubt there is consensus as to what it means and what qualifies, oh, and I don't like offending people.

regards,
M.


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## Taggart (Feb 14, 2013)

Interesting "fusion" piece from Africa is the Missa Luba:


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## Taggart (Feb 14, 2013)

Another interesting "fusion" piece, although slightly earlier is Hanacpachap cussicuinin a Quechua chant found in Juan Pérez Bocanegra "Ritual, formulario, e institución de curas" of 1631.


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## Ralfy (Jul 19, 2010)

I'm reminded of Britten's _Curlew River_:


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