# Rock and Roll Violin?



## Nate Miller (Oct 24, 2016)

I'm looking for opinions on whether the violin is a viable instrument for rock and roll. Last week, I took my violin to a jam session. We were playing rock/fusion and urban beat grooves, all improvised. I played about 20 minutes, then switched to my guitar.

I'm trying to figure out how I want to use the violin in a rock setting. I'm forming my opinion, but I want to wait and hear from some of you first 

you see, the only real examples I can think of would be Mahavishnu Orchestra and James Blood Ulmer. I dont want to use bluegrass licks, because that's more southern rock. I dont want to do the string backgrounds you used to hear behind pop singers. I'm trying to approach it the same way I do the electric guitar

But is that realistic? Do you know of any rock bands that use a "lead violin player"?

Or does the violin not belong in rock and roll?

what do you think?


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

Kansas had a violinist on all their classic albums. The best ones are the first five from 1974-1977.

Frank Zappa employed a number of violinists over the years. Listen to Willie The Pimp with Sugarcane Harris. And Fifty Fifty with Jean Luc Ponty.

Another great band with violinist was the instrumental group, the Dixie Dregs. Despite the name they were not southern rock. It is a fusion of rock, classical, a bit of country and some Celtic influence. The compositions are excellent. Check out their albums, What If, Unsung Heroes, and Industry Standard. Mark O'Connor is the violinist on Industry Standard and he plays some brilliant solos.


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## Nate Miller (Oct 24, 2016)

thanks, there we go...I forgot about Jean Luc Ponty. I have him on some records, too, but not with Zappa. And also Steve Morse and the Dixie Dregs...I forgot about them. 

Part of what I'm trying to figure out is what constitutes an idomatic violin line in rock. Some guitar licks transfer to the violin pretty directly, but getting a "vocabulary" of idiomatic ideas is what I need to find by listening to some other players that do it


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

I don't know if there are any "pure" rock violinists? You might want to listen to Joe Deninzon. Although he fuses some different styles. And there's Papa John Creach. He's probably closer to old school rock. As you mentioned, many of the lines they play can be duplicated on guitar.


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## pianozach (May 21, 2018)

ELO (Electric Light Orchestra) as well.

*Violin Rock Artists*

The Silver Wizard Project. 4,765 listeners. ...
Jelonek. 95,057 listeners. ...
Regicide. 8,528 listeners. ...
Acoustic Asturias. 888 listeners. ...
Lindsey Stirling. 439,851 listeners. ...
KBB. 2,547 listeners. ...
Driven Like the Snow... driven like the snow... are a collective of acoustic musicians based in Tamworth, UK. ...
Aria Asia.


U2 used it in their song called “Sunday Bloody Sunday"
Bob Dylan used it in his protest song called “Hurricane"
Led Zeppelin used some violin solos in his song called “Kashmir"
You could also check out the *Wikipedia Rock Violinists* page. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rock_violin


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

Forgot about King Crimson with David Cross. The studio albums, Lark's Tongues In Aspic, Starless and Bible Black, and the 4 disc live set, The Great Deceiver.


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## Nate Miller (Oct 24, 2016)

there is another aspect to this question that I'd like to hear some opinions on....is violin really suited for rock?

There are amplification issues, and if you are playing with a real drum set, the cymbals wash out alot of the high frequencies and it can be hard to tell if you are even playing in tune. I've had that happen, but at this session we were using electronic drums and everybody was going through the board, so I had a better sonic environment.

Also, is the attack of the violin aggressive enough to hold its own against a hard driving rhythm section? The violin can have a very aggressive attack, but happens when you try and use any subtlety? If the only option is to saw away like you are trying to bring the roof down, that's probably not a good sign.

I'm kicking these ideas around because if I am trying to ram a square peg into a round hole, then maybe I'd be better off sticking to the violin repertoire and just take my guitar to the jam sessions. I have to take time to work on a rock style, so "Am I wasting my time" is a valid question. I've talked with the fellas, and surprisingly got positive feedback, but I think they are simply indulging a friend who wants to try something new,


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## Georgieva (7 mo ago)

(Wrong thread)


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## Georgieva (7 mo ago)

Wrong thread


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## Kjetil Heggelund (Jan 4, 2016)

The violinist here is a folkmusicplayer, but he ROCKS!!!


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## Georgieva (7 mo ago)

Wrong thread


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## Kjetil Heggelund (Jan 4, 2016)

Red alert!!!


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

Georgieva, why are you posting your classical selections in this thread?


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## Nate Miller (Oct 24, 2016)

Kjetil, Thanks for that clip. I always like hearing something sung in a language I can't understand. I guess that's why I always like British bands 😄 

but the thing that I saw was that he was playing an electric violin, which I think is nearly a necessity. I was using a mic, and I thought about how an electric violin would be better, even while I was still busy playing.

And you pointed out that he was a folk player, and the thing that I believe is that fiddle and violin are two different instruments. They look the same, but they are not the same. I'm a fiddle player that has graduated to violin. I think the difference is not just playing in higher positions, but the bowing is different. Fiddle players get a harsher tone and its all in the bow. I do think that fiddle playing in rock is viable. There's some mock-Irish metal bands that use Irish style fiddling, and of course bluegrass fiddle and southern rock go together like biscuits and gravy

but I think there's something else in that clip...the atmospheric ethereal vibe from the beginning of the track makes a much less cluttered ensemble sound that lets the violin speak. I was playing in a more danceable groove in my "experiment" so I really had to work to find my place in the texture. I thought that restrained what sort of things I could do alot more than a setting like that one in the clip


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## Merl (Jul 28, 2016)

Lots of violins in rock music over the years. Personally I love the sound of violins in rock.


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## Georgieva (7 mo ago)

starthrower said:


> Georgieva, why are you posting your classical selections in this thread?


Thank you for pointing it out. Unfortunately, I had some technical problems from browser, and I didn't notice. 
Apologies for inconvenience, all deleted.


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## Nate Miller (Oct 24, 2016)

Georgieva said:


> Thank you for pointing it out. Unfortunately, I had some technical problems from browser, and I didn't notice.
> Apologies for inconvenience, all deleted.



No! 😧 

It's ok, I like classical violin 

and I did say that maybe I'd be better off just playing repertoire and not worrying about working on a rock style, so I thought you might be helping me with going that route

I thought abut saying something earlier, that it was cool with me if you posted those, but I didn't. I should have, but I didn't


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## Nate Miller (Oct 24, 2016)

Merle, thanks for those. Charlie Daniels "Devil Went Down to Georgia" has probably the most famous violin part in the history of rock.

But in the Vagabonds track I heard the violin taking on the role on a synthesizer, and to good effect. I thought that was interesting because while I was playing during my "experiment" I would play high notes with the keyboard player and found that the violin can blend with certain synth sounds from the keyboard really well. In pop music there's pad lines that keyboards or horns play, and that could be an effective way to add to what's going on. 

and I think the Levellers track shows that fiddle style playing definitely works in rock


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

Not exactly rock but an amazing tune with some inspired playing.


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## regor (Nov 27, 2013)

I’m a sucker for violin in rock music. Here are a few of my favourites:
Two tracks that end with fabulous violin solos include Baba O’Riley by The Who and Out of the Blue by Roxy Music.
Bands that featured violin from my prog days include the already mentioned King Crimson, Curved Air and East of Eden.
Current bands featuring a violinist include Bent Knee, Pozi and Black Country, New Road.

There are lots of videos on YouTube and, if I knew how I would post links (but I’m too scared to try - I’m new here, you see!)
Looks like I've been lurking for a long time!


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## RandallPeterListens (Feb 9, 2012)

Best classified as a one-hit wonder, those of us of a certain age (_ahem_) can still fondly remember the effective use of the violin in "White Bird" by It's a Beautiful Day. But I'm not sure if the violinist was an integral part of the group.


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## jurianbai (Nov 23, 2008)

Paganini had "shredding" his violin in 18th century lol.

Violin certainly can make an awesome instrument in rock n rolls style.


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## NoCoPilot (Nov 9, 2020)

Nate Miller said:


> there is another aspect to this question that I'd like to hear some opinions on....is violin really suited for rock?


It CAN be, if played in a rock way. My problem with people like J.L. Ponty and Jerry Goodman and Allen Sloan is that they come to rock from a classical or country background, and don't really inhabit the violin as a rock instrument.

Violinists I would consider more rock-oriented:

Darryl Way: Wolf, Curved Air
Simon House: High Tide
Charlie Bisharat: Shadowfax
Michael White: The Fourth Way


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## Jay (Jul 21, 2014)

Jerry Goodman, the Flock
Richard Greene, Seatrain
Ric Grech, Family
Simon House, High Tide


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## khoff999 (Oct 31, 2018)

starthrower said:


> . And there's Papa John Creach.


I always liked his playing on Jefferson Starship's Dragonfly album.

Polish violinist Michal Urbaniak was popular in fusion era (1970s), although not quite as popular as Luc Ponty or Jerry Goodman when he was with Mahavishnu.


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## golfer72 (Jan 27, 2018)

Elton John's Madman Across the Water album used lots of violin and orchestral accompaniment. One of his best albums too. The song "Levon" is a good example as well as Indian Sunset


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## eljr (Aug 8, 2015)

Nate Miller said:


> I'm looking for opinions on whether the violin is a viable instrument for rock and roll.


I think the better question is, "is Rock and Roll viable any longer?"

I know I am way past my fill of the guitar and drums being near sole instruments of popular/rock music for 65 plus years. 
A waste of musical potential IMHO. 

Think of all the great music that was never created because of the dominance of the guitar.


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## bagpipers (Jun 29, 2013)

The only thing that comes to mind although this is on the borderline between country and Southern rock would be "Charlie Daniels" sort of rockabilly


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## Shaughnessy (Dec 31, 2020)

I have it cued up at the 1:25 mark - This is actually a fairly good representation of what "rock & roll violin" would sound like but for God's sake, stop playing the video right after he finishes his solo - seriously - and whatever you do, don't watch it from the beginning - the vocals - especially the accent - are the stuff of nightmares... Jaysus... The guy can play but whoever it was that told him that he could actually sing did him no favors...

The bow twirling, however, is definitely cool, but when you do it, do it less than half as many times as he does as it stops being "cool" and becomes "annoying" amazingly quickly...


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## Merl (Jul 28, 2016)

Oops. Redone.


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## Merl (Jul 28, 2016)

regor said:


> There are lots of videos on YouTube and, if I knew how I would post links (but I’m too scared to try - I’m new here, you see!)
> Looks like I've been lurking for a long time!


To post a video from YouTube, Regor, just press the 'share' button underneath the YouTube video. Lots of options will appear, one being a grey circle with 'copy link' in it. Press this and the link is copied. Then return to this thread and in your normal post either hold your finger down (if on a cellphone) or right-click (if on a computer) until the 'paste' appears. Click this and it will post your YouTube link. Finish the pst and the full YouTube link will appear in the thread. Trust me, its not that hard.


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## Shaughnessy (Dec 31, 2020)

Merl said:


> Underneath the YouTube video there's a button that says 'share". Click on it and one of the options is' copy link' (it's in a grey circle). Click on that and it copies the link to the video. Then in your next post right click (or keep your finger down) and you'll see 'paste'. Press it and the link is posted in the thread. As soon as you've finished your post the video will appear in the thread. Hope that helps, Regor.


Probably the easiest way is to just copy whatever is in the address bar at the top of the YouTube page and then paste it right into the post -

This Italian lass can really play... Jaysus...


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## HenryPenfold (Apr 29, 2018)

in 1978 (?) I walked into Small Wonder Records in Walthamstow (a 9 minute walk from the Assembly Halls that Barbirolli &al made many an iconic recording) and swapped my live double Lynyrd Skynyrd album for a concert ticket at the Rainbow (Theatre) for a band called UK that had my favourite drummer at the time and guitarist (Bill Bruford & Alan Holdsworth). Pete Stennet, the owner, had his finger in many pies and did deals like this. Any road up, Eddie Jobson, ex-Roxy Music &cetra, on keys and electric violin. Well no point in going on about these incredible musicians, just listen to this and decide yourself if you think the electric violin has a place in rock n roll.


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## regor (Nov 27, 2013)

Thanks Merl and Shaughnessy for the YouTube linking advice. I'll give it a go when I'm feeling brave.
This should be a video of Pozi:


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## Joachim Raff (Jan 31, 2020)

Going back to my 80's days and one of my favourite groups, DMR.


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## Joachim Raff (Jan 31, 2020)

Then going back to my 70's days, who cannot forget Jeff Lynne?


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## HenryPenfold (Apr 29, 2018)

Joachim Raff said:


> Going back to my 80's days and one of my favourite groups, DMR.


In the 1970s I nicked about 50 in total of those tomato ketchup dispensers, almost entirely from Wimpy. Haven't got a single one left, they ran out in the 1990s at chez-moi. I met Kevin Rowland in the late 1980s, quite a nice chap.

Edit: In the days when it was ok to be photographed with a Vauxhall Chevette in the background 🤣


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## Tristero (1 mo ago)

I present this


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## Nate Miller (Oct 24, 2016)

I got some feedback this weekend from some of the guys at the session where I played the violin. Surprisingly, they want me to bring it to some other sessions, but the piano player had a really good observation. He said I should approach it like I was playing a horn.

I thought that was brilliant because the violin is a melodic instrument, not a rhythm section instrument, so trying to translate my approach from electric guitar to a violin really didn't work out. Horns dont play the whole time. They sit out entire sections. When a horn or horn section is accompanying, there are stock "pad lines", particularly in R&B, then when it is time to solo, its daddy blow that horn.

so after thinking about all that for a bit, I put on Miles Davis Bitches Brew and listened again to how Miles does it

and I also now realize from listening to the clips you all posted that I should not shy away from being a fiddle player when I do this. I had played with people before in Old Time and grass sessions, and I didn't want to use "Fiddle" licks in the rock sessions .....but I was wrong. There is no doubt that fiddle style works. I think I just wanted to consider myself a violinist instead of the fiddle player that I was, but I think Popeye said it best when he said "I am what I am"


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

a violinist you should check out is Sugarcane Harris, who's considered a sort of Hendrix of the violin, and worked also with Frank Zappa






Nick Cave have worked for a long time with Warren Ellis, who's my favorite rock violinist. I love especially his stuff with his band The Dirty three, but that's quite difficult to classify just as rock or folk or jazz. But I highy recommend the album Ocean songs.







but altough he plays the viola, I think that John Cale could be a great inspiration, maybe you've heard already his work with the Velvet Underground


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

Pretty amazing to hear this incredible guitar solo played on the violin.


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## NoCoPilot (Nov 9, 2020)

Tristero said:


> I present this


See post #23

That Luvienne video is certainly rock. The boots seal it.


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## NoCoPilot (Nov 9, 2020)

starthrower said:


> Pretty amazing to hear this incredible guitar solo played in the violin.


Didn't Holdy play violin as well?


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

NoCoPilot said:


> Didn't Holdy play violin as well?


Yes, he did for a while but gave it up. He played one short solo on the I.O.U. album.


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

this is one of my favorite rock songs with a viola


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

These two are in the progressive rock vein. Far Corner features cello.


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