# Schubert or Schumann(s)?



## k1hodgman (Sep 8, 2015)

Schumann(s) to include his Wife, Clara.

Who do you prefer for Art Songs and Piano compositions? Why?


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

Schubert, and it's not even close. I can't explain why, it is just a matter of how I react.


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## k1hodgman (Sep 8, 2015)

I'm a Voice Major student, and one of the first pieces I was given is Schumann's _Du bist wie eine blume_. It's beautiful in it's simplicity, but I'm * really* hoping for some Schubert as well.


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## Reza (Jan 6, 2015)

I prefer Schubert for Art Songs and Schumann for Piano Compositions. And i don't know why


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## k1hodgman (Sep 8, 2015)

Welcome new member.  I'm inclined to agree based on what I've heard so far, but that may change. They're tied personally so far in my book.


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## Gustav Mahler (Dec 3, 2014)

It's hard to decide between to giants.
I find Schumann more romantic than Schubert.
They both have a kind of suffering apparent in their music-Schubert from lack of recognition (He was not well known in his own time at all), And Schumann had Manic-Depression, Which caused swinging mood, And of course we all know that he tried to commit suicide and was send by his own request to an asylum until his death.
I just play both Schubert and Schumann now-The 21th sonata and Dichterliebe and Kinderszenen respectively.
Well, The 21th sonata by Schubert is one of the greatest sonatas ever written-The lyrical theme, Which has a song-like quality to it, So fluid, So soothing-What a wonderful melody. 
On the other hand we have Schumann-
The dichterliebe, Which reflects Schumann with his mood changes-The gain and happiness, The loss and depression, And the acceptance, Finishing with the most beautiful Arpeges on the piano in the history of music-I have tears in my eyes imagining it.

So how do they compare? Scubert's melodies are smooth, Beautiful and natural. But he doesn't sting my heart as Schumann does. It is beautiful, But just not as romantic as Schumann, And i am a person who lives of romanticism.

Anyway, I can't say that anyone is better. They are both giants.


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## SiegendesLicht (Mar 4, 2012)

For piano - Schubert. For lieder - both.


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## DaveM (Jun 29, 2015)

I find it impossible to compare or express preferences between composers who are, IMO, from two different eras. Schubert to me was from the Classical era. Schumann was from the early beginning of the Romantic era. Their compositions are distinctively different.

Schubert had been dead for 3 years before Schumann started writing even his earliest compositions. And as far as Clara is concerned, she was 9 years old when Schubert died.

I love the music of both these composers for different reasons. They were musical geniuses from their own eras. One thing they did have in common was tragically early death.


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## Weston (Jul 11, 2008)

I don't know enough about art song, but Schubert for piano. I love Schumann's piano concerto, but his solo piano music, while I enjoy it, leaves me scratching my head sometimes.


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## Morimur (Jan 23, 2014)

Schubert—that's a no brainer. He outclasses Schumann everywhere.


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## Epilogue (Sep 20, 2015)

Objectively, Schubert's songs are greater than anything by Schumann. Though if we compare everything _except_ the forms in which they were at their respective very greatest - that is, Schubert's songs and Schumann's piano pieces - I would say the competition is pretty even.

Subjectively, Schumann everywhere, every time.


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## scratchgolf (Nov 15, 2013)

One is my favorite composer and the other top 10 for sure. I love Schumann but the only place he's better is Concertos


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## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

I prefer Schubert in both categories but Schumann at his best runs him close.


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## isorhythm (Jan 2, 2015)

Weston said:


> I don't know enough about art song, but Schubert for piano. I love Schumann's piano concerto, *but his solo piano music, while I enjoy it, leaves me scratching my head sometimes.*


Man, me too. Lots of people who would know say it's among the greatest piano music ever, and I don't get it at all.


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## D Smith (Sep 13, 2014)

Lieder - Schubert. Piano - a tie. This is based solely on what I listen to of theirs in these categories.


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

It seems as if I'm just following the crowd! Schubert is my choice in every genre I know of. I haven't heard their operas.


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## Richannes Wrahms (Jan 6, 2014)

Schumann is on the way out and probably the more 'great revival' attempts there are the worse he comes out.


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## Epilogue (Sep 20, 2015)

Maybe there's some planet on which Schumann is "on the way out" (160 years - that's a _long_ exit). Here on Earth, he and Chopin, even more than Liszt, co-own the post-Schubert, pre-Debussy piano repertory, and of course he's the single greatest song composer ever whose name isn't "Schubert."

And since I just realized that I only half answered the original question in my last post: Objectively their piano works are about even - though somewhat difficult to compare, with Schubert specializing in the sonata, Schumann in the cycle (one relatively easy point of comparison is Schubert's _Wanderer_ fantasy to Schumann's fantasy in C major, which I would say is close, with the edge going maybe to the latter). Personally I prefer Schumann.


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## isorhythm (Jan 2, 2015)

Richannes Wrahms said:


> Schumann is on the way out and probably the more 'great revival' attempts there are the worse he comes out.


What makes you say this?


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## Richannes Wrahms (Jan 6, 2014)

I guess its mostly intuition, perhaps inspired by the several times something in the lines of 'Schumann is underappreciated' I've heard before a concert but not after it. Same with Gluck and von Weber, the heroes of 19th century opera composers, where are they now? I guess I should find out the numbers and do the math, not that I come here to do that.


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

I think they are both wonderful composers, but Schumann's the one whose music I connect with more intensely.


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## DaveM (Jun 29, 2015)

Richannes Wrahms said:


> I guess its mostly intuition, perhaps inspired by the several times something in the lines of 'Schumann is underappreciated' I've heard before a concert but not after it. Same with Gluck and von Weber, the heroes of 19th century opera composers, where are they now? I guess I should find out the numbers and do the math, not that I come here to do that.


"Schumann is on the way out..."

Pretty extreme comment to make based on 'intuition'.


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## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

Richannes Wrahms said:


> I guess its mostly intuition, perhaps inspired by the several times something in the lines of 'Schumann is underappreciated' I've heard before a concert but not after it. Same with Gluck and von Weber, the heroes of 19th century opera composers, where are they now? I guess I should find out the numbers and do the math, not that I come here to do that.


Upcoming performances of:
Schumann - 334
Gluck - 13
Weber - 57, including several productions of Der Freischutz


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## Richannes Wrahms (Jan 6, 2014)

From the same source 

Schumann: 

2010 - 953 (anniversary)
2012 - 545

Do they publish the complete thing?


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## Epilogue (Sep 20, 2015)

Richannes Wrahms said:


> Same with Gluck and von Weber, the heroes of 19th century opera composers, where are they now?


Well, Weber's big hit is only 15-20 years older than most of Schumann's. So, again, if the implication is that Robert is going away any day now, just like Carl, there's a point at which you have to admit that the analogy isn't working.

Actually, that point's probably already rather far in the past. Anybody remember when performances of _Der Freischütz_ were last common? Because I feel like it's been a while - probably more than 20 years.



Mahlerian said:


> Upcoming performances of:
> Schumann - 334
> Gluck - 13
> Weber - 57, including several productions of Der Freischutz


The really interesting story here, maybe, is the yet another indicator that, in spite of 165 years of critical hatred, Mendelssohn still refuses to disappear. (Upcoming performances: 300)


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

Robert Schumann said:


> Er hat Töne für die feinsten Empfindungen, Gedanken, ja Begebenheiten und Lebenszustände. So tausendgestaltig sich des Menschen Dichten und Trachten bricht, so vielfach die Schubertsche Musik.




..................


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## helenora (Sep 13, 2015)

Schubert for sure ...even though I love Schumann's Lieder and piano music as well, but I agree with Schumann "die Schubertsche Musik ist sehr vielfach"


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## MoonlightSonata (Mar 29, 2014)

I love the music of both, but Schubert gets my vote.


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## Musicophile (May 29, 2015)

I like Schumann's symphonies, concertos and some of his piano music. But overall, Schubert is much higher on my personal ranking, and this although I barely listen to his symphonies. But his chamber music, piano music and Lieder are out of this world.


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## isorhythm (Jan 2, 2015)

As far as I can tell Schumann is as canonical as anyone, and it would take a truly massive shift in taste for that to change.

He's one of the three Rosen focused on in _The Romantic Generation_ (along with Chopin and Berlioz), and Bernstein's chosen representative of early Romanticism in his Harvard lectures, to give a couple examples.

Pianists also seem to love him - and I mean the kind of pianists who specialize in Bach and modern stuff. Schumann has cred.

I still don't really understand why though.


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## Blake (Nov 6, 2013)

Schumann. Raw, unexpected... many moments of surprising, yet familiar joy. Kind of like a van Gogh.


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

Blake said:


> Schumann. Raw, unexpected... many moments of surprising, yet familiar joy. Kind of like a van Gogh.


Kind of like a Jackson Pollock too in terms of the emotional impact of their works. (And I love Pollock)

But maybe you are referring to the crazy things both Van Gogh and Schumann did to themselves?


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## Blake (Nov 6, 2013)

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> Kind of like a Jackson Pollock too in terms of the emotional impact of their works. (And I love Pollock)
> 
> But maybe you are referring to the crazy things both Van Gogh and Schumann did to themselves?


I get plenty of moments in Schumann's work that feel like an obvious abandon of accepted form for the sake of what's really felt... much of what van Gogh would do.

Of course, the comparisons aren't always savvy. But there are times when one reminds me of the other.


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## Blake (Nov 6, 2013)

Add on... Pollock has done so in more extreme ways than I would normally associate with Schumann.

But then again, the time span between them means quite a bit...


Well, actually... the more I think about it... the more I realize how confused I am.


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## Richannes Wrahms (Jan 6, 2014)

Didn't the other Romantics thought he was something like the divinely chosen successor to Beethoven?


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

Richannes Wrahms said:


> Didn't the other Romantics thought he was something like the divinely chosen successor to Beethoven?


Is this like some kind of crazy cult?

I'm gonna call them the Krazy Komposer Kult, or KKK for short.


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## Epilogue (Sep 20, 2015)

Jackson Pollock is Elliott Carter.

Vincent van Gogh is Henri Duparc.

Robert Schumann is Honore Daumier.


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

Epilogue said:


> Jackson Pollock is Elliott Carter.


I would be surprised if Jackson Pollock ever had an extensive colour/shape cataloguing and planning system to create action piantings as Carter had an extensive chord cataloguing system and carefully planned metrical structures for his compositions....


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## violadude (May 2, 2011)

At this moment, I am much more partial towards Schumann. Schubert is great, but there are many things about his style that puzzle me, such as his stubborn unwillingness to move the bass for such long stretches of time. It works in some cases, but is annoying in others, imo.

Also, Schumann's piano music seems a lot more pianistically imaginative. Schubert's writing is still very much based in relatively rigid classical keyboard idioms.


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## Epilogue (Sep 20, 2015)

@ComposerOfAvantGarde

Hey, if you take a lot of trouble to plan exactly how you're going to splash things all over the place before you do it, and it still comes out sounding like things splashed all over the place, it's not _my_ problem.

Anyway, I think Pollock's keenest admirers find that there was very much a method to his attempted madness.


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## violadude (May 2, 2011)

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> I would be surprised if Jackson Pollock ever had an extensive colour/shape cataloguing and planning system to create action piantings as Carter had an extensive chord cataloguing system and carefully planned metrical structures for his compositions....


Agreed, I would think John Cage is a more apt comparison.


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## Epilogue (Sep 20, 2015)

John Cage is way too quiet to be Jackson Pollock.

John Cage is Robert Rauschenberg, maybe.


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## violadude (May 2, 2011)

Epilogue said:


> John Cage is way too quiet to be Jackson Pollock.
> 
> John Cage is Robert Rauschenberg, maybe.


I was basing my comparison on technique rather than the specific affect that technique produces.


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## Blake (Nov 6, 2013)

Composers matched with painters. This is a cool blend.


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

Epilogue said:


> John Cage is way too quiet to be Jackson Pollock.


You're making my sides hurt as I remember listening to Roaratorio for the first time. 'Quiet' would be hardly be an adequate descriptor :lol:

For Cage, I think we need a collage artist who used and reused existing objects to create bizarre pictures. Rauschenberg is pretty good on one hand....


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Composers and painters? Here's Schumann in his later years, wondering what that sound is.


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