# Discussion: The 2020 Talk Classical Top Recommended Opera CDs and DVDs



## Granate

Hello. It's been 4 years since this forum last agreeded on a top 100 Operatic works and voted on polls to choose their favourite and most reccomended recordings. On the ocassion of the 5 year anniversary in 2020, we could reopen a new process and poll.

There haven't been many audio operatic releases during this time, but members have changed significantly and many of the opera fans online weren't part of this forum by 2014 when it all started (2nd edition o be more precise). Although controversial things like Opera Depot and Youtube have helped to raise the concern about historical performances, the most significant change in the operatic market apart from composition has been the load of Opera DVDs and Blu-Rays that have been released. I think it's in order to make a new poll about our favourite recordings but I would also like that we all discuss our favourite compositions, sharing room with all our biases for composition eras.

I don't know how we should organise to choose the Top 100 opera. I'm in favour of opening a Game thread. I would love members like Art Rock, Bulldog and science to share their reccomendations for a process like this. I do remember that for the last poll of recordings, once we all had the top 100 compositions, we opened a thread where a moderator presented a work and members had like 5 days to post (not vote in a poll) their favourite recordings on CD and DVD (if they had an opinion, as they could pass). We could repeat that.

I want to open now that discussion, especially focused on the choice of the Top 100 Opera compositions. And to express a couple of points from my own opinion.


I volunteer myself to design, code and post the results of the Recordings poll, with wide pictures, harmonic typography, just limited by the Bulletin features. Most of the posts of the 2015 TC Winners have broken links.
I don't think we should do a rank of 100 operas from best to "worst", but rather just come up a list of the 100 TC favourite operas. The Order of voting and also results would only be conditioned by the date of premiere, from older to newer (we could also open a thread to clear any doubt about the dates and running order anyway).
I think we have more than enough with 12 months to get our new Winners thread. I would make the effort to include the ASINs of all the products or just warn that the winners are OOP.

*2011 Thread of 272 TCs Favourite operas*
There's a thread for the 101-272 rank inside, but I can't find the thread for the order of Top 100.


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## Art Rock

I think the typical games as introduced to TC by Bulldog are not very suited for establishing a top 100 operas. They might come in handy when we're talking about best recordings for each opera though.

For the top100 (even non-ranked), I think a conventional approach is more suited. Have each participant post their own preferences (10? 20? 30? ranked? not ranked?) and award points accordingly (still many options how to award the points, the one to be used should be clarified upfront). A drawback is of course, that this requires all participants to read the first post - which in my experience many fail to do. Simplest may therefore be to ask for non-ranked lists with a maximum number of X and award one point each to every opera mentioned. If people want to post shorter lists, they can.

One could also combine approaches... have the first 75 (for instance) determined via the method lined out above, and take the next 50 or so into a Bulldoggy game to determine which 25 will be included in the top 100 in that example.

One final note: my experience is whatever the subject is, some people will start stretching the boundaries. I'd advice you to be clear upfront what you would accept as an opera (e.g. operetta? musical?).


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## Art Rock

An alternative, which may be similar to what was actually used in the past: everyone posts say 20 favourite operas. Based on number of mentions, the first 10 operas are determined and qualify for the top100. A new round in the same way (except the already qualified works) yields the next 10. And so on.


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## SixFootScowl

I wonder if there should be a forum or sub forum specifically for TC rankings? A different thread for each opera. That would make it really easy for people like me who want to look up the rankings to not have to page through dozens of pages of listings to get to the opera of interest. So it would amount to a subforum of say 100 threads. And perhaps after the 100 threads are established (could be polls but would not include any new, upcoming operas), the moderators could lock the sub forum to new threads so we don't get extraneous discussion threads going.

I don't know, just a crazy thought. May work. May not.,


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## The Conte

Art Rock said:


> An alternative, which may be similar to what was actually used in the past: everyone posts say 20 favourite operas. Based on number of mentions, the first 10 operas are determined and qualify for the top100. A new round in the same way (except the already qualified works) yields the next 10. And so on.


I second this approach.

N.


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## Granate

Art Rock said:


> An alternative, which may be similar to what was actually used in the past: everyone posts say 20 favourite operas. Based on number of mentions, the first 10 operas are determined and qualify for the top100. A new round in the same way (except the already qualified works) yields the next 10. And so on.


This is a very good approach too, so if anyone makes the mistake not to read the first post, there isn't such a difference in the poll. I would argue that we go slowly over the course of 10 weeks. It could be a bit slow to do a weekly vote but it would be easier to remember to put a weekly vote instead of calculating 5 or 4 days. Depending on the time our members have.

Each member should think of their top opera recordings before beginning so they can cross out the ones that have passed to the top. No room for tactical vote.

[HR][/HR]
And my ranking is done: a top84 operas that I have seriously listened to. I would like to add FROSCH somewhere but it's like I'll watch soon _Ernani_ and _Luisa Miller_ beforehand for my challenges.


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## Meyerbeer Smith

What about everyone voting for [up to] their top 50 or 100? That'll yield more interesting results.


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## annaw

Dr. Shatterhand said:


> What about everyone voting for [up to] their top 50 or 100? That'll yield more interesting results.


I think that wouldn't be a very differentiating method as 50 or 100 is a huge number and the best operas would just get very similar scores (I suppose that even people who don't like Mozart or Wagner wouldn't leave one of their more famous operas out of top 100). So although that may differentiate 'not-so-good-operas' quite well, I'm not 100% sure whether it would be good for top 30 operas, but that's only my opinion.


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## nina foresti

Art Rock said:


> An alternative, which may be similar to what was actually used in the past: everyone posts say 20 favorite operas. Based on number of mentions, the first 10 operas are determined and qualify for the top 100. A new round in the same way (except the already qualified works) yields the next 10. And so on.


Pure and Simple.
I totally agree with this approach.


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## Granate

annaw said:


> I think that wouldn't be a very differentiating method as 50 or 100 is a huge number and the best operas would just get very similar scores (I suppose that even people who don't like Mozart or Wagner wouldn't leave one of their more famous operas out of top 100). So although that may differentiate 'not-so-good-operas' quite well, I'm not 100% sure whether it would be good for top 30 operas, but that's only my opinion.


I agree, If it was for a rank, I would award the best positions with exponential points instead of consecutive, like 60, 40, 30, 20, 15, 10, 8, 7...

But only if we were to go with the top 50 or 100 instead of the top 20 game Art Rock was proposing. I am more eager to try the AR one.


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## Amara

It makes sense to use the same voting and scoring process detailed in the 2015 thread. That way we can accurately see how tastes have changed and how operas have risen and fallen in rankings over the years.

Here are the original instructions from Faustian:

The 2015 TC Top 100+ Most Recommended Operas List

*Voting process:*

To those new to the voting process, we normally do a two-step voting process and build up the list 10 works at a time. This allows people to continually review works as the project goes along instead of voting for everything in one shot.

First round is the nomination round where people can nominate up to 10 works. The top 10 works from the nomination round become the next 10 works on the list, though their final ordering is determined by the second round.

Second round is the voting round, where people vote for their five favorites of the top 10 works from the first round. This is so that all voters can have input in the final order.

The scoring method is as follows:

*Nomination round:*

The points are determined by the ranking of each work as it was initially nominated. 15 points for the work in first, 14 for second, 13 for third, and so on with the tenth work receiving 6. This method is to weigh in both the ranking and the number of times the work was nominated. So, a nominated work that appears first on three lists would beat out a work that is nominated tenth on 7 different lists.

*Voting round:*

The scoring is quite similar for the voting round with the works receiving 7, 6, 5, 4, and 3 points in the respective rank that they are voted in. The last work in the voting round will receive 3 points no matter what, so if a vote has only 3 works listed, than the works will receive 5, 4, and 3 points, respective to their order. Again, the reason behind this method is to create a balance between the number of times the work is nominated and its rank.

*Honorable mentions:*

At the end of the project, we also like to keep a list of honorable mentions containing every work that was nominated but didn't make the final list. Hence in the very last nomination round we give people 20 votes instead of 10 to collect more recommendations. Even if some of your works do not make the final list, your input is valued.


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## Amara

Double posted by accident.


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## Bulldog

Are we going to be nominating/voting for works or recordings?

Wagner's Ring presents its usual problems. If it's considered one entry, it sure has an advantage over other operas.


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## Bulldog

Amara said:


> It makes sense to use the same voting and scoring process detailed in the 2015 thread. That way we can accurately see how tastes have changed and how operas have risen and fallen in rankings over the years.


I don't see how accuracy will be achieved given that there would be significant changes in the folks who participate.

My view is that it's best for Granate to do what he wants.


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## Granate

Bulldog said:


> Are we going to be nominating/voting for works or recordings?


We should do one after the other



Bulldog said:


> Wagner's Ring presents its usual problems. If it's considered one entry, it sure has an advantage over other operas.


I would also like to vote in separate pieces of the Ring. Problem is that many DVD releases are full Rings. ¿Why not a non-ranked post where we vote our favourite Ring and also be able to vote to our absolute favourite recordings of the individual operas?



Bulldog said:


> I don't see how accuracy will be achieved given that there would be significant changes in the folks who participate.


I still think many people online from 2014 are still alive here. During these years I haven't seen too many new members keen in Opera  But I'm way more interested in showing an updated picture of our Opera tastes (see, the weight of Baroque or 20th Century, or German vs French vs. Russian). Anyways, 2015 Winners won't be erased.



Bulldog said:


> My view is that it's best for Granate to do what he wants.





Amara said:


> *Voting process by Faustian:*
> 
> To those new to the voting process, we normally do a two-step voting process and build up the list 10 works at a time. This allows people to continually review works as the project goes along instead of voting for everything in one shot.
> 
> First round is the nomination round where people can nominate up to 10 works. The top 10 works from the nomination round become the next 10 works on the list, though their final ordering is determined by the second round.
> 
> Second round is the voting round, where people vote for their five favorites of the top 10 works from the first round. This is so that all voters can have input in the final order.
> 
> The scoring method is as follows:
> 
> *Nomination round:*
> 
> The points are determined by the ranking of each work as it was initially nominated. 15 points for the work in first, 14 for second, 13 for third, and so on with the tenth work receiving 6. This method is to weigh in both the ranking and the number of times the work was nominated. So, a nominated work that appears first on three lists would beat out a work that is nominated tenth on 7 different lists.
> 
> *Voting round:*
> 
> The scoring is quite similar for the voting round with the works receiving 7, 6, 5, 4, and 3 points in the respective rank that they are voted in. The last work in the voting round will receive 3 points no matter what, so if a vote has only 3 works listed, than the works will receive 5, 4, and 3 points, respective to their order. Again, the reason behind this method is to create a balance between the number of times the work is nominated and its rank.


I still need to analise this better, but I prefer the Art Rock proposition for nominating 20 works instead of 10 each round while every 10 most voted works are chosen. I'm good in this process with the consecutive ranking instead of exponential (I think that would be fairer in a single 100 vote). I think this two round process is really fine too (choosing 5 from the 10 most voted).

I would gladly start this someday, but I'd like to have every Opera fan in here informed and involved beforehand.

I may edit the post again. Thank you for the attention.


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## The Conte

Do the 100 operas we are going to vote our favourite recordings of have to be our 100 favourite operas? Could they be the ones we consider the most important operas and therefore those that it is worth voting for? My favourite operas may not have many recordings in some cases and so it may not be worth putting them to a vote.

If we were to nominate our 20 favourites and then the top 10 from everybody's nominations are chosen until we have 100 operas, does it matter what order they are in? I mean do we have to rank them from 1 (the favourite of favourites) to 100 being bottom of the list. In order to vote for our recordings we only need 100 operas and an order to go through them, but that could be any order. OR do we want a ranked list of our 100 favourite operas (which would be interesting in itself) AND then our favourite recordings of our favourite operas?

Do ask for further explanation if this isn't clear.

N.


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## Granate

The Conte said:


> Do the 100 operas we are going to vote our favourite recordings of have to be our 100 favourite operas? Could they be the ones we consider the most important operas and therefore those that it is worth voting for? My favourite operas may not have many recordings in some cases and so it may not be worth putting them to a vote.


I would vote for my favourite operas since I just don't know the rest of the repertoire. I have ranked in my list up to 88 different operas. I would only reccomend what I know about, but this is a good debate. I can't be in the "most musically important" side but I undertstand that a majority would vote that way. However, I would find it better to consider a reccomendation based on our tastes. There are indeed many works that I'll have to pass from because I don't know enough recordings.



The Conte said:


> If we were to nominate our 20 favourites and then the top 10 from everybody's nominations are chosen until we have 100 operas, does it matter what order they are in? I mean do we have to rank them from 1 (the favourite of favourites) to 100 being bottom of the list. In order to vote for our recordings we only need 100 operas and an order to go through them, but that could be any order.


In my first post I was in favour, because of scrolling and making search easier for readers, of ignoring the top 100 rank when we do our recordings reccomendations, so the running order of voting and final presentation would only consider the date of premiere.


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## The Conte

Granate said:


> In my first post I was in favour, because of scrolling and making search easier for readers, of ignoring the top 100 rank when we do our recordings reccomendations, so the running order of voting and final presentation would only consider the date of premiere.


Putting our favourite recordings for the operas in chronological order is a great idea!

N.


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## Granate

^^



Granate said:


> I want to open now that discussion, especially focused on the choice of the Top 100 Opera compositions. And to express a couple of points from my own opinion.
> 
> 
> I volunteer myself to design, code and post the results of the Recordings poll, with wide pictures, harmonic typography, just limited by the Bulletin features. Most of the posts of the 2015 TC Winners have broken links.
> I don't think we should do a rank of 100 operas from best to "worst", but *rather just come up a list of the 100 TC favourite operas.* The Order of voting and also results would only be conditioned by the date of premiere, from older to newer (we could also open a thread to clear any doubt about the dates and running order anyway).


Maybe I didn't make myself clear Conte. Here's the original post.


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## The Conte

Granate said:


> ^^
> 
> Maybe I didn't make myself clear Conte. Here's the original post.


No, it's totally clear, I'd just forgotten that and got sidetracked due to some of the other comments. So, when are we going to start nominating our 20 favourite operas for the list?

N.


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## Granate

^^

If I just had a week to be able to watch _Die Frau Ohne Schatten_... , plus Capriccio, etc. I wrongly thought all R. Strauss Operas were going to be like _Der Rosenkavalier_.

Will we rule out _Die Fledermaus_ again? And we should decide whether the Ring counts as one or 4 operas. Let's keep this thread up so more members can see it before doing anything.


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## Art Rock

Personally, I'd be in favour of keeping it to pure operas, no operettas and so on.

If we are going for a chronological list of 100 operas, rather than a (anyway dubious) ranking from 1-100, I'd be in favour of keeping the Ring as one entry, since there would be no unfair competitive advantage for combining the four.


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## The Conte

Art Rock said:


> Personally, I'd be in favour of keeping it to pure operas, no operettas and so on.
> 
> If we are going for a chronological list of 100 operas, rather than a (anyway dubious) ranking from 1-100, I'd be in favour of keeping the Ring as one entry, since there would be no unfair competitive advantage for combining the four.


Here's an idea, it's inconceivable that the Ring wouldn't be chosen, what about treating it as one opera for the 100 number, but when it comes to choosing our favourite recordings listing it as five separate entries so that we put forward our favourite complete cycles and then our favourite of each opera? Otherwise some very good stand alone recordings of the operas (e.g. Furtwangler's studio Walkure) won't have a chance in the running. The Ring also has to be considered as a complete entity as most people are interested in the work as a cycle to be taken as a whole. So strictly speaking we would be voting on 104 operas, but with 4 of them considered twice in two different modes (surely not a problem, though?)

N.


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## vivalagentenuova

Granate said:


> Will we rule out _Die Fledermaus_ again? And we should decide whether the Ring counts as one or 4 operas. Let's keep this thread up so more members can see it before doing anything.


Interesting questions. _Fledermaus_ wouldn't be too high on my list anyway, so I don't really have a personal stake. Still, I've been thinking about the grounds for excluding it, and it seems like we'd have to just make hard and fast genre distinction between opera and operetta. But then I think about, say, the _Magic Flute_ and what separates it from operettas, other than quality?

Anyway, the _Ring_ should definitely be treated as four separate operas if the final list is going to have any kind of order of preference. _Das Rheingold_, good as it is, would end up in a much lower spot on my list than _Siegfried_. I wouldn't like having to group them all. In any case, I would like to be able to pick and choose recordings for the different operas. If it's just chronological, I'm sure all four will be on the list anyway, so it's a moot point. At least the recordings part should still be split up as someone else said already. EDIT: Just saw The Conte already said a lot of that. Well, I second it!

I also think everybody should vote for their favorites only. I'm always much more interested in hearing what people actually like than what they think is generally considered important. One can find many lists that reflect the latter on the internet, but only we can make a list that reflects our preferences. In any case, I think the purpose of the recommendations would be to show new members like me and each other what we like, which will hopefully help fuel discussion. A list of operas we think are generally considered important seems less likely to fuel interesting discussions.


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## vivalagentenuova

Oh, and it just occurred to me: what about _Il trittico_? I think the same reasoning applies to it that applies to the Ring.


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## The Conte

vivalagentenuova said:


> Oh, and it just occurred to me: what about _Il trittico_? I think the same reasoning applies to it that applies to the Ring.


That's a good point, however are there that many recordings of the single operas? (Although some may want to mix and match from different sets of the complete triptych.)

N.


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## vivalagentenuova

> That's a good point, however are there that many recordings of the single operas? (Although some may want to mix and match from different sets of the complete triptych.)


I would certainly mix and match, and there actually are a number of recordings of the individual operas that are quite good, e.g., a one-off _Suor Angelica_ with Carteri in top form, a _Tabarro_ with an outstanding turn by Clara Petrella as Giorgetta etc..


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## Granate

I was going to review all the Trittico recordings soon, and many of them are spares. 

I think it's a fair point to save three slots to other operas rather than faving four entire slots for Wagner Operas we all know are going to be considered.

I wouldn't consider a contradiction to vote for a Ring in a single slot and let the Trittico operas compete against the others alone.


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## lluissineu

Good. I'll be ready to vote as son as my compatriot Granate kicks off The poll. I must warn that I listen Mainly to orchestral music and I know way more orchestral pieces than opera.

Please make sure before starting that all rules are understood.



I bet it Will be a race between Verdians and Wagnerians.


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## Granate

Qué tal Iluissineu. Long time no hear. I've been taking a gap year from Opera after the French and Russian feast. I spent the last year diving into symphonists, so I could know way more about opera but it is a bit tiresome. I even listened to my favourite Verdi _Macbeth_ out of the blue between Schubert works and I was unmoved.

We should keep debating the ideas here. I would just tell people that while we discuss the rules, that we come up with a top+100 of Operas and we spread the word to other members who'd like to participate. 2015's first round had lots of members involved, I don't know if they persisted because the thread has +50 pages.


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## lluissineu

Muy bien Granate. The activity I like The most in classical music is getting to know new artists and discovering orchestras (I travel for or five times every year to visit concert halls to listen to some of my favourite orchestras and conductors (London, Munich, Amsterdam, Leipzig, Berlin...), but I like The opera performances as well. 

I think Classical music lovers go through different stages. For instance, I'm now hooked on Beethoven piano sonatas, just because I was given The Paul Lewis recording.

Hope you enjoy this poll. You have a lot of work ahead. Good luck !!


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## The Conte

This has gone quiet. Granate, shouldn't we start nominating our 20 favourite operas so that the first series of ten can be worked out?

N.


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## Granate

He he... Now that I have watched _Die Frau Ohne Shatten,_ yes we could. I would need just five minutes to update my top and upscale some Verdi operas I have revisited now.

To create the post, I would need to check out the 2015 Faustian post and replace some things we talked about. I hope to be less busy by next week when I have finished my video. I had to make progress today. So 20 we agree on...

I may post the beginning today, yes. I would just not pay a lot of attention to the voting since I'm really busy at work. So far, I think the Original Poster must vote in the round before anyone else, instead of closing.

I'm seeing the voting process and it would be nice to start the nomination round from monday to friday and the final voting of the round on the weekend. But I should follow the California time zone so I don't leave them out before voting, huh?

[HR][/HR]
Hey. I finished the Edit of the Faustian post to start the voting process. But I'm settling the 20 top list instead of 10, scoring from 25 to 6 and letting people nominate the three operas of Il Trittico as one-act operas.


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## The Conte

Here's the voting thread in case others have missed it:

The 2020 TC Top 100+ Most Recommended Operas List

(This is to nominate our 100 favourite operas and then to vote on them to rank them in order.) Once we have a list of the 100 favourite operas of TC posters we will nominate our favourite recordings of each opera on CD and DVD.

N.


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## SixFootScowl

The Conte said:


> Here's the voting thread in case others have missed it:
> 
> The 2020 TC Top 100+ Most Recommended Operas List
> 
> (This is to nominate our 100 favourite operas and then to vote on them to rank them in order.) Once we have a list of the 100 favourite operas of TC posters we will nominate our favourite recordings of each opera on CD and DVD.
> 
> N.


One question. As you note in the linked thread that opera cycles (Ring) are to be treated as a single work:


> Cycles of Operas such as Richard Wagner's Der Ring des Nibelungen


So I am thinking that Donizetti's Three Queens is not a cycle and so each opera (Roberto Devereux, Anna Bolena, and Maria Stuarda) would be treated separately.


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## The Conte

Fritz Kobus said:


> One question. As you note in the linked thread that opera cycles (Ring) are to be treated as a single work:
> 
> So I am thinking that Donizetti's Three Queens is not a cycle and so each opera (Roberto Devereux, Anna Bolena, and Maria Stuarda) would be treated separately.


Also Cav and Pag should be treated separately as both 'cycles' have a number of recordings that aren't part of a cycle.

N.


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## SixFootScowl

The Conte said:


> Also Cav and Pag should be treated separately as both 'cycles' have a number of recordings that aren't part of a cycle.
> 
> N.


Yeah, For Donizetti's Queens there are only two CD sets that have all three packaged together (Sills and Gencer).


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## The Conte

Fritz Kobus said:


> Yeah, For Donizetti's Queens there are only two CD sets that have all three packaged together (Sills and Gencer).


The other issue is that one or more of the three might not make the list!

N.


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## SixFootScowl

The Conte said:


> The other issue is that one or more of the three might not make the list!
> 
> N.


Exactly as I am heavily biased towards Maria Stuarda. Can you guess one opera that likely will be on my top 20 list  Coming soon in the other thread.


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## howlingfantods

You may want to start a new post both here and in the recordings subforum letting people know to head over to the polls thread. I'm noticing most of the active posters here haven't voted yet, and I think most of the folks active in this forum don't browse the polls subforum much.

Also, you may want to consider putting the recording thread in the opera recordings subforum with a link from the polls thread--I think most of the serious opera fans here rarely leave the opera forum or opera recordings subforum. You'd probably get much more activity that way.


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## Granate

^^

I had posted a link to the thread in the Currently Listening Opera thread. But it's still one more week to go for them to vote. Should we also consider the mods? This is a pretty important poll.


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## Granate

*Recordings poll proposal*

It's still soon. I don't now if this was discussed in how to make opera polls funnier, but I wanted to discuss a way to vote for our favourite recordings.

In the 2015 poll, every member voted for a single recording on CD and a single recording on DVD. This resulted in some ties but also the feeling of leaving out many recordings we loved.

I suggest we use a voting system that can widen the reccomendations more. Giving points to one or two recordings, but with the chance to name two winners as long as they share the price. Only if we really mean it.

Situation A: only one recording I would like to vote for:

*Der Ring des Nibelungen:*

1) Solti WPO - 4p

Situation B: two recordings I reccomend, but one more than the other:

*Der Ring des Nibelungen:*

1) Solti WPO - 4p
2) Keilberth BFO 55 - 2p

Situation C: two recordings I reccomend on equal level, sharing points:

*Der Ring des Nibelungen:*

1) Solti WPO - 3p
1) Keilberth BFO 55 - 3p

These would be the only possibilities. I think it's much clearer than explaining rules literally

In case of draw, the recording with more first positions wins. But if there's still a draw, should it be resolved or left as it is? I would directly open an extra round for members who didn't vote for any of the two recordings to choose one. If there's still a draw with them, the first vote of the extra round decides the winner.


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## howlingfantods

I like the idea of just having a certain number of points per opera to allocate however you see fit--so I can split something more or less evenly, one several times more than another, or several recordings we like almost equally. There are certainly operas that I think have one outstanding recording, some that I think has several that I like almost equally.


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## Granate

^^

Would you then agree with another situation with three recordings instead of only two?

Situation D: three recordings I reccomend on equal level, sharing points:

*Der Ring des Nibelungen:*

1) Solti WPO - 2p
1) Keilberth BFO 55 - 2p
1) Karajan BPO - 2p

[HR][/HR]
Also, for each opera, the results could have more transparency. I'm talking about showing in short comments the number of people that voted and how many voted in style A, B C or D, so readers can tell better the opinion of the members if it was unanimous or balanced (or controversial if there's a near-tie and many members voted in style A or B).

I think by this way we wouldn't feel the need to vote by strategy, because our recommendations (those which don't win) would be less likely to remain in the dark flashed by the winner). I was even going to give up my vote to the Kna Bayreuth 52 _Parsifal_ as my favourite so the true 62 contender had more chance to stand against Karajan BPO (Kna won against Karajan just for one vote in 2015).


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## The Conte

howlingfantods said:


> I like the idea of just having a certain number of points per opera to allocate however you see fit--so I can split something more or less evenly, one several times more than another, or several recordings we like almost equally. There are certainly operas that I think have one outstanding recording, some that I think has several that I like almost equally.


I second this, perhaps having six points per opera, so you can put all your six points on one opera or choose two recordings you like equally three/three or four/two if you like one recording better than the other or three ranked recordings, three, two, one. or six you like equally! Six points gives lots of scope and it shouldn't be too much of a problem adding up the points for each recording.

N.


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## The Conte

Granate said:


> ^^
> 
> Would you then agree with another situation with three recordings instead of only two?
> 
> Situation D: three recordings I reccomend on equal level, sharing points:
> 
> *Der Ring des Nibelungen:*
> 
> 1) Solti WPO - 2p
> 1) Keilberth BFO 55 - 2p
> 1) Karajan BPO - 2p
> 
> [HR][/HR]
> Also, for each opera, the results could have more transparency. I'm talking about showing in short comments the number of people that voted and how many voted in style A, B C or D, so readers can tell better the opinion of the members if it was unanimous or balanced (or controversial if there's a near-tie and many members voted in style A or B).
> 
> I think by this way we wouldn't feel the need to vote by strategy, because our recommendations (those which don't win) would be less likely to remain in the dark flashed by the winner). I was even going to give up my vote to the Kna Bayreuth 52 _Parsifal_ as my favourite so the true 62 contender had more chance to stand against Karajan BPO (Kna won against Karajan just for one vote in 2015).


Each person has six points per opera to allocate as they see fit?

Great minds think alike!

N.


----------



## Granate

The Conte said:


> Each person has six points per opera to allocate as they see fit?
> 
> Great minds think alike!
> 
> N.


No, not exactly like that. My proposal is really explicit in the four situations: 4p; 4p+2p; 3p+3p; 2p+2p+2p. No other way possible, or that is what I understand from both howlingfantods and The Conte. But thank you for the appreciation.

I think this is an easier way than free allocation to state which kind of voting is yours. It's limited, but also ties would be less likely to happen. I think.

My reason for still allocating 4 points in situation A (only one favourite recording) is in order to:


make members decide if they want to go all the way with one or allow another possible contender to receive two extra points.
6 is a multiply of 2 and 3. For example, the amount of points of a Situation A vote (with 6 points) would be equal to three votes of the D kind or two votes of the C kind. Like, Situation C is the only possible way to get an odd number that could unbalance the result in favour of one or another recording.
It's not a situation of to each their own (like 5+1 or 4+1+1) but to make the voter give a direct statement in only four combinations.

Hey, but I'm happy to open this particular debate! Let's discuss (but I have to go to bed really soon; midnight in Europe)


----------



## The Conte

I'm still concerned that people on the opera forum aren't voting because the voting thread is in an entirely different part of TC.

Have you voted? Would you like to vote?

Perhaps a new thread in the opera forum would be a good idea?

N.


----------



## SixFootScowl

The Conte said:


> I'm still concerned that people on the opera forum aren't voting because the voting thread is in an entirely different part of TC.
> 
> Have you voted? Would you like to vote?
> 
> Perhaps a new thread in the opera forum would be a good idea?
> 
> N.


I think this is a good case for when a poll or voting thread should not be in the Classical Music Discussion Polls subforum. Perhaps see if the moderators will move it to the opera forum and then give it some more time so all can participate.


----------



## Tsaraslondon

The Conte said:


> I'm still concerned that people on the opera forum aren't voting because the voting thread is in an entirely different part of TC.
> 
> Have you voted? Would you like to vote?
> 
> Perhaps a new thread in the opera forum would be a good idea?
> 
> N.


I've seen it, along with all the other voting polls in the other part of the site, and I've resisted because

a) the voting procedure seems rather complicated. I've probably got it wrong but it doesn't seem to be quite a case of listing my 20 favourite operas. Admittedly I've only skimmed through the threads.

b) at the moment people seem to be voting for their top 20 and I'm not sure I could actually come up with 20 that easily. After my top two or three, it really becomes difficult as there are probably about fifty operas that I'd want to include.

c) is the vote just for one's favourite operas or does one have to take into consideration whether they are also important works? For instance, neither of Berg's operas are among my favourites, but I think they would have to be included in a list of great/important/influential operas. However I no longer have recordings of either and will probably never listen to or see them again.

d) even one of my top three operas (Norma) has a qualification. Unless Callas is singing it, it would end up a lot further down my list, so where would I place? When Callas is Norma it seems like the greatest opera in the world, but with anyone else it's just a good bel canto opera.

e) the last time we did this, there was a certain amount of acrimony surrounding certain people's choices and, quite frankly, I just don't want to get involved. I prefer a quiet life.


----------



## The Conte

Tsaraslondon said:


> I've seen it, along with all the other voting polls in the other part of the site, and I've resisted because
> 
> a) the voting procedure seems rather complicated. I've probably got it wrong but it doesn't seem to be quite a case of listing my 20 favourite operas. Admittedly I've only skimmed through the threads.


The point is for us jointly to choose our 100 favourite operas. We are starting by listing our favourite 20 operas (in order of preference) and the 10 most popular will be the first 10. Then we will list another 20 each out of which another 10 will be chosen. Once we have the 100 favourite TC operas we will vote on our favourite recordings of each opera.



Tsaraslondon said:


> b) at the moment people seem to be voting for their top 20 and I'm not sure I could actually come up with 20 that easily. After my top two or three, it really becomes difficult as there are probably about fifty operas that I'd want to include.


I'm in the same boat, but I'm not being too dogmatic about the order I am listing the operas in at the moment. I have prepared a list of my 100 favourites and will put forward titles from the list in a rough order of preference depending on which operas make each group of 10.



Tsaraslondon said:


> c) is the vote just for one's favourite operas or does one have to take into consideration whether they are also important works? For instance, neither of Berg's operas are among my favourites, but I think they would have to be included in a list of great/important/influential operas. However I no longer have recordings of either and will probably never listen to or see them again.


It's your favourite operas.



Tsaraslondon said:


> d) even one of my top three operas (Norma) has a qualification. Unless Callas is singing it, it would end up a lot further down my list, so where would I place? When Callas is Norma it seems like the greatest opera in the world, but with anyone else it's just a good bel canto opera.


I would suggest listing Norma in your top three as you will be voting on your favourite recordings at one point (if you take part).



Tsaraslondon said:


> e) the last time we did this, there was a certain amount of acrimony surrounding certain people's choices and, quite frankly, I just don't want to get involved. I prefer a quiet life.


That's understandable. I only started halfway through the process last time so I'm keen to take part in the whole exercise this time round.

N.


----------



## Woodduck

Tsaraslondon said:


> I've seen it, along with all the other voting polls in the other part of the site, and I've resisted because
> 
> a) the voting procedure seems rather complicated. I've probably got it wrong but it doesn't seem to be quite a case of listing my 20 favourite operas. Admittedly I've only skimmed through the threads.
> 
> b) at the moment people seem to be voting for their top 20 and I'm not sure I could actually come up with 20 that easily. After my top two or three, it really becomes difficult as there are probably about fifty operas that I'd want to include.
> 
> c) is the vote just for one's favourite operas or does one have to take into consideration whether they are also important works? For instance, neither of Berg's operas are among my favourites, but I think they would have to be included in a list of great/important/influential operas. However I no longer have recordings of either and will probably never listen to or see them again.
> 
> d) even one of my top three operas (Norma) has a qualification. Unless Callas is singing it, it would end up a lot further down my list, so where would I place? When Callas is Norma it seems like the greatest opera in the world, but with anyone else it's just a good bel canto opera.
> 
> e) the last time we did this, there was a certain amount of acrimony surrounding certain people's choices and, quite frankly, I just don't want to get involved. I prefer a quiet life.


I feel much the same. If I had to do nothing more than contribute a list of my 10, or maybe 15, favorite operas, I could probably manage to do so in approximate order of preference. If I had to list 20 I'd be making more arbitrary choices. And I suffer similarly fom the Callas problem, but to an even more extreme extent in that I'm fairly uninterested in most of her repertoire except when she's singing it. I guess I'd just have to pretend that she never existed! Given all that, I think I'll have to adhere to my usual custom of not participating in polls.


----------



## Granate

Fritz Kobus said:


> I think this is a good case for when a poll or voting thread should not be in the Classical Music Discussion Polls subforum. Perhaps see if the moderators will move it to the opera forum and then give it some more time so all can participate.


Fritz. I wasn't in this forum when the last poll took place. Also, there wasn't a sub-forum for polls back then. I've tried to gain attention to this poll in other popular opera threads but I have since received just two more votes.

Were involved members back in 2015 from more backgrounds in terms of eras? And how where they questioned about their voting that year? Was it really unconfortable? I would have published the possibility of a private voting if I was warned before this beforehand. But I would still accept those votes now, but one way or another, all results will be public.

This thread was opened more than one month ago in the Opera sub-forum where the poll would supposedly be moved. I haven't seen a really important interest from members usual to the Operatic threads and it has reflected in the poll too. I don't really think another way that Opera members would know about this poll unless moderators sent emails to all members announcing this (and it's the second time I mention this).


----------



## Art Rock

Granate said:


> ...unless moderators sent emails to all members announcing this (and it's the second time I mention this).


The mods do not read all threads. If you would like them to do it, you need to send them a message.


----------



## SixFootScowl

Granate said:


> Fritz. I wasn't in this forum when the last poll took place. Also, there wasn't a sub-forum for polls back then.


I just got my first go at opera in December 2014 and I don't think I was even aware of the opera poll that happened in 2015.

You definitely did a lot trying to get news of this current poll spread to others in the opera forum. I also contacted one member whom I was sure would vote, but I don't recall seeing anything from them and that was a week or so ago. They responded and thanked me but....

Not sure where we go with it from here, but if they don't want to participate in the opera selection, we simply move on. They may participate more when we put up our favorite recordings.


----------



## Bulldog

Granate said:


> This thread was opened more than one month ago in the Opera sub-forum where the poll would supposedly be moved. I haven't seen a really important interest from members usual to the Operatic threads and it has reflected in the poll too. I don't really think another way that Opera members would know about this poll unless moderators sent emails to all members announcing this (and it's the second time I mention this).


Opera members? We are all TC members, and I can't work up any consideration for members who only know what's going on in the Opera forum.


----------



## Tsaraslondon

Just one more question.

I think I read that operettas are excluded, which means no *Die Fledermaus* or *Die lustige Witwe*. It also means the majority of Offenbach's works should be excluded.

What about Handel's orotorios which are now regularly staged today, works such as *Semele* and *Hercules*, or Berlioz's *La Damnation de Faust*, which, though regularly staged today, was composed as a concert piece?


----------



## Granate

Sorry Bulldog. I think you are right. I just didn't have a nice friday and rushed into the keyboard the moment I came from work. We move on.



Tsaraslondon said:


> Just one more question.
> 
> I think I read that operettas are excluded, which means no *Die Fledermaus* or *Die lustige Witwe*. It also means the majority of Offenbach's works should be excluded.


In the rules of the thread, operettas are not excluded.



Granate said:


> *Requirements for works nominated:*
> 
> 
> The work must be part of the Operatic tradition. Musicals will not be considered.
> Operettas and one-act Operas are both allowed to be nominated.
> Cycles of Operas such as Richard Wagner's _Der Ring des Nibelungen_ and Karlheinz Stockhausen's _Licht_ are to be voted on as singular works, not by their individual operas. However, for this time, considering the musical and thematic difference between the three operas, and especially the number of spare recordings, Giacomo Puccini's _Il Trittico_ will be voted in three one-act Operas.
> A general consensus will determine any points of ambiguity.


Voting round for the 10 most recommended works has begun!


----------



## The Conte

Granate said:


> In the rules of the thread, operettas are not excluded.


Yes, that was my recollection. What about oratorios that are regularly staged? Are Semele, Hercules, Theodora and Damnation of Faust allowed?

N.


----------



## Granate

I have not crossed out one of the votes for _La Damnation de Faust,_ so... I would feel free to go on if those works are more or less into the Operatic circuit.


----------



## Tsaraslondon

I think I'm going to pass. I made a list of just over 100 operas I enjoy, but damned if I could put them in any sort of order, and not sure I even want to try. 

Then I visited the actual thread and I'm even more confused now as to what we are required to do, so am opting out. It looks as if you have your work cut out for you, Granate.


----------



## The Conte

Tsaraslondon said:


> I think I'm going to pass. I made a list of just over 100 operas I enjoy, *but damned if I could put them in any sort of order*, and not sure I even want to try.
> 
> Then I visited the actual thread and I'm even more confused now as to what we are required to do, so am opting out. It looks as if you have your work cut out for you, Granate.


I can put them in order, however the order can change wildly depending on my mood when I compile it! Other people will have to cope with my choosing Rigoletto in my top 20 one week and then replacing it with Macbeth the next!

I think it might have been more interesting to list our _200_ favourites as that gives greater scope for more unusual works to get through.

N.


----------



## Granate

Tsaraslondon said:


> Then I visited the actual thread and I'm even more confused now as to what we are required to do, so am opting out. It looks as if you have your work cut out for you, Granate.


??????????......

I'd rather not misunderstand this message. If you don't mind, please explain your point in public or in private. As you please. Other members would not like to vote in this poll and I see, but half of the rules are copied from the 2015 Poll discussed and executed by Faustian.


----------



## Tsaraslondon

Granate said:


> ??????????......
> 
> I'd rather not misunderstand this message. If you don't mind, please explain your point in public or in private. As you please. Other members would not like to vote in this poll and I see, but half of the rules are copied from the 2015 Poll discussed and executed by Faustian.


I'm sorry. I meant no disrepect to you at all. I just meant that collating all this will take a lot of work. I actually admire you for taking it on.


----------



## Byron

It looks like the new top 10 is going to be made up entirely of 4 composers. Mozart, Puccini, Verdi and Wagner. And Tosca over La bohème? Aida over La traviata? Bleh. I think I prefer both the 2010 and 2015 lists to be honest. :lol: There's not even 5 in this new bunch that I'm that crazy about to want to vote for. Sorry, I'm out. But good luck!


----------



## Granate

Ok, but please, keep nominating your 20 most recommended works in next nomination round on Monday. I personally think fans of other eras could be way more _pissed_ than you sound here, but either they they are not among us anymore, they don't know about the running poll or they are polite enough to accept the results as they come. Good luck to you too.


----------



## Duncan

Byron said:


> It looks like the new top 10 is going to be made up entirely of 4 composers. Mozart, Puccini, Verdi and Wagner. And Tosca over La bohème? Aida over La traviata? Bleh. I think I prefer both the 2010 and 2015 lists to be honest. :lol: There's not even 5 in this new bunch that I'm that crazy about to want to vote for. Sorry, I'm out. But good luck!


I would like to extend my personal thanks for your decision to bow out and vacate the premises forthwith as it will ensure that the thread will be that much less acrimonious and thus that much more enjoyable for those of us who feel that being open-minded and tolerant are actually virtues to be championed and not vices to be vilified.

- Duncan


----------



## SixFootScowl

Granate said:


> In the rules of the thread, operettas are not excluded.


Right, and so I nominated Lehar's Das Land des Lachelns.


----------



## Granate

Someone in the Poll thread proposed splitting the voting in various threads to make searching easier. I have no experience with that issue, but if members could consider it an improvement, I would give in. 

We could split the Poll in 5 different threads: 1-20, 21-40, 41-60, 61-80, and 81-100 and HM. Thus we continue with the current thread for the next week and we could have time to let one of the mods change the thread title to accomodate to the different stages.

Current title: The 2020 TC Top 100+ Most Recommended Operas List
New title: Top 1-20: 2020 TC MR Operas List

Is it reasonable?
How


----------



## Duncan

Granate said:


> Someone in the Poll thread proposed splitting the voting in various threads to make searching easier. I have no experience with that issue, but if members could consider it an improvement, I would give in.
> 
> We could split the Poll in 5 different threads: 1-20, 21-40, 41-60, 61-80, and 81-100 and HM. Thus we continue with the current thread for the next week and we could have time to let one of the mods change the thread title to accomodate to the different stages.
> 
> Current title: The 2020 TC Top 100+ Most Recommended Operas List
> New title: Top 1-20: 2020 TC MR Operas List
> 
> Is it reasonable?
> How


The 2020 TC Top 100+ Most Recommended Operas List - Numbers 1 - 20...

The 2020 TC Top 100+ Most Recommended Operas List - Numbers 21 - 40...

Etc.

When I saw this -



Granate said:


> New title: Top 1-20: 2020 TC MR Operas List


My first thought was - "Who's Mister Opera?" - :lol:


----------



## Granate

In the list of threads, it's faster to see the beginning than the end of a long thread title. Imagine you have several and can't see which one to click because the interface doesn't show the whole title if it's that long.


----------



## Josquin13

Is it too late to list my top 20 operas?


----------



## Duncan

Granate said:


> In the list of threads, it's faster to see the beginning than the end of a long thread title. Imagine you have several and can't see which one to click because the interface doesn't show the whole title if it's that long.


The thread title will show this in its entirety -

2020 TC Top 100+ Most Recommended Operas List - Numbers 1-20

or

2020 TC Top 100+ Most Recommended Operas List - Nos 1-20

or if you want the specific numbers listed first -

Nos 1-20 - 2020 TC Top 100+ Most Recommended Operas List

Nos 21-40 - 2020 TC Top 100+ Most Recommended Operas List

etc.

Your original suggestion still scans as if you've written "Mr. Opera's List"



Granate said:


> New title: Top 1-20: 2020 TC MR Operas List


----------



## Granate

Josquin13 said:


> Is it too late to list my top 20 operas?


Please, go to the *Poll thread.* Yes. It's late for Positions 1-10. But you can join in for 11 onwards!



Mollie John said:


> or if you want the specific numbers listed first -
> 
> Nos 1-20 - 2020 TC Top 100+ Most Recommended Operas List
> 
> Nos 21-40 - 2020 TC Top 100+ Most Recommended Operas List
> 
> etc.


Yes, this one.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA :lol:



Mollie John said:


> The thread title will show this in its entirety


My desktop interface cuts the titles. If I had to put "Most Recommended", "Operas" may be cut from sight. It's just an insanely long title to not make abbreviations.


----------



## Duncan

Granate said:


> Please, go to the *Poll thread.* Yes. It's late for Positions 1-10. But you can join in for 11 onwards!
> 
> Yes, this one.
> 
> HAHAHAHAHAHAHA :lol:
> 
> My desktop interface cuts the titles. If I had to put "Most Recommended", "Operas" may be cut from sight. It's just an insanely long title to not make abbreviations.


Consider dropping the word "Most" and see if it fits - it's extraneous when used with "Recommended"

Nos 1-20 - 2020 TC Top 100+ Recommended Operas List

Nos 21-40 - 2020 TC Top 100+ Recommended Operas List

If that still doesn't work consider dropping the "TC" -

Nos 1-20 - 2020 Top 100+ Recommended Operas List

Nos 21-40 - 2020 Top 100+ Recommended Operas List


----------



## SixFootScowl

*Reference this post* from this morning.

So, I am confused. First we gave lists of 10 top operas (or was it 20), but anyway, a first 10 were set, then we put in our next 10, but now we are doing 5. I don't think I know what is going on, but will follow suit and post my 5 favorites as instructed. You don't have to explain it to me because I may be beyond understanding. I don't normally don't play games much more complicated than UNO. :lol:


----------



## The Conte

Fritz Kobus said:


> *Reference this post* from this morning.
> 
> So, I am confused. First we gave lists of 10 top operas (or was it 20), but anyway, a first 10 were set, then we put in our next 10, but now we are doing 5. I don't think I know what is going on, but will follow suit and post my 5 favorites as instructed. You don't have to explain it to me because I may be beyond understanding. I don't normally don't play games much more complicated than UNO. :lol:


I'll try and explain. We are compiling our list of TC's favourite 100 operas, in units of ten at a time. So in each round we will end up with another ten operas on the list in order of preference. We have already done the first ten, we are now doing the next ten (so operas 11 - 20 on the final list).

Each round has two parts. In part one we nominate operas for the next ten slots by choosing our favourite 20 operas (that haven't already been chosen). The ten operas that have been nominated at the highest positions in those lists of 20 are then the ones chosen for the next ten slots. However, to give everyone a chance to say which order they should be placed in we have the voting round where everyone selects five of the ten nominated and puts them in order of preference.

Does that make sense?

N.


----------



## OperaChic

Well, it appears I've already missed the first couple rounds...unfortunately I don't check the forum often enough anymore to participate on a regular basis. Although at this juncture it may be a moot point, allow me to give my input anyways:

1) I rember that I voted in the last opera list we did, and from what I can remember there was quite a bit more participation on that project. A lot of that probably has to do with the structure of the message board itself; that poll was conducted on the main forum where there is a lot more traffic, while this new one has been relegated to the "Games" forum. Of course the less participants involved, the more the results will be skewed according to the tastes of a particular few. Not a bad thing per say, but probably not "representative" of the forum as a whole.

2) It seems to me that in order to increase the number of users participating in the project, and to create a list that reflects the broader tastes of the board, something like Art Rock's Composer ranking might serve as a useful template.

The problem with the kind of ranking thread currently underway is that users participate in some rounds, miss others, and there tends to be a steep drop off after the first batch of most popular operas has been ranked. Others just want to list their favorite operas once and then disappear: they might not feel qualified enough to vote for a bunch of operas they have never heard!

I think an attempt at being more inclusive would be ideal. A thread could be started in the opera forum that let users list their top 20 or 30 operas, or whatever: but to allow users with less listening experience to participate, allow lists of any size, up to the designated number. State that they can either do a "ranked" list or an "unranked" list where points would be distributed equally. And then put in the caveat that an opera would have to be voted by a certain number of users before it could be included on the list. Perhaps a 2 or 3 vote minimum. Let the thread run for an extended time so that as many users can submit a list as possible.

Now, the list might not be as _detailed_ as the 2015 list, and it might not be as long. But I think it would create a more accurate "top 50" opera list.

Anyways, water under the bridge now, but maybe something to consider for the future.


----------



## Art Rock

OperaChic said:


> 2) It seems to me that in order to increase the number of users participating in the project, and to create a list that reflects the broader tastes of the board, something like Art Rock's Composer ranking might serve as a useful template.


After the current exercise is finished, I could follow up on this suggestion. It would be interesting to compare the results.


----------



## SixFootScowl

The Conte said:


> I'll try and explain. We are compiling our list of TC's favourite 100 operas, in units of ten at a time. So in each round we will end up with another ten operas on the list in order of preference. We have already done the first ten, we are now doing the next ten (so operas 11 - 20 on the final list).
> 
> Each round has two parts. In part one we nominate operas for the next ten slots by choosing our favourite 20 operas (that haven't already been chosen). The ten operas that have been nominated at the highest positions in those lists of 20 are then the ones chosen for the next ten slots. However, to give everyone a chance to say which order they should be placed in we have the voting round where everyone selects five of the ten nominated and puts them in order of preference.
> 
> Does that make sense?
> 
> N.


I think I get it, but ultimately we need only put in our lists as requested and await the final result. Thanks.


----------



## Granate

Thank you Conte. The day was quite odd this saturday. No soon I had posted the results the laptop battery had died and one hour before Fritz Kobus' post I had left to the city centre to meet friends (which I rarely do).

I will now open a new thread for the Game of Positions 21-40. To OperaChic, I kindly invite them to take part in the new thread. I will try to open it in the CMD section this time. Remember that for the recordings poll it will only matter that the opera is in the Top 100 chosen, because results will be presented in premiere order and not opera rank.

*New thread in the CMD!*


----------



## Tsaraslondon

Well I thought I'd have a go, but I'm afraid I still can't decide on a second rung tope twenty as it were; fifty yes, but twenty is impossible. Nor can I begin to put them in any kind of order. I could probably choose a top five, but the rest of the operas I love are continually jostling for position, probably depending on how recetly I heard them.

A couple of things that strike me looking at the top ten, and of the voting so far in the second round:-

Am I the only person who loves Berlioz? *Les Troyens* strikes me as one of the greatest operas ever written and would be one of my top five, but nobody has even voted for any Berlioz yet.

I am suprised to see so much Puccini in the top 20. I don't think any of his operas would make it into mine, though one or two would doubtless be in my next 20.

No vote for *Falstaff* yet. Verdi's last opera is an astonishing act of genius. It pains me to see it so neglected.

But carry on. Though I might not be contributing, I'm finding the results quite fascinating.


----------



## Duncan

Tsaraslondon said:


> A couple of things that strike me looking at the top ten, and of the voting so far in the second round:-
> 
> Am I the only person who loves Berlioz? *Les Troyens* strikes me as one of the greatest operas ever written and would be one of my top five, but *nobody has even voted for any Berlioz yet*.
> 
> I am *suprised to see so much Puccini in the top 20*. I don't think any of his operas would make it into mine, though one or two would doubtless be in my next 20.
> 
> *No vote for* *Falstaff* yet. Verdi's last opera is an astonishing act of genius. It pains me to see it so neglected.
> 
> But carry on. Though I might not be contributing, I'm finding the results quite fascinating.


Not true - I've voted for "Les Troyens" at each of the three opportunities presented...

All that "Puccini in the top 20" is probably my fault as I've been stacking the deck in his favour - to Canadians he's the "the greatest composer of Italian opera after Verdi" - To each his own, eh?

Again not true - I've voted for "Falstaff" at each of the three opportunities presented...

Here's the latest ranking that I submitted today -

https://www.talkclassical.com/63865-nos-21-40-2020-a.html#post1740767

*1. Berlioz - Les Troyens*
2. Verdi - Il trovatore
3. Rossini - Il barbiere di Siviglia
4. Donizetti - Lucia di Lammermoor
5. Verdi - Rigoletto
*6. Verdi - Falstaff*
7. Verdi - Simon Boccanegra
*8. Berlioz - La damnation de Faust*
9. Donizetti - L'elisir d'amore
10. Rossini - La Cenerentola
11. Leoncavallo - Pagliacci
12. Bizet - Carmen
13. Puccini - Gianni Schicchi
14. Bellini - I puritani
15. Donizetti - La fille du régiment
16. Verdi - Un ballo in maschera
17. Donizetti - Don Pasquale
18. Verdi - Macbeth
19. Massenet - Manon
20. Gounod - Roméo et Juliette


----------



## Becca

Tsaraslondon said:


> Well I thought I'd have a go, but I'm afraid I still can't decide on a second rung tope twenty as it were; fifty yes, but twenty is impossible. Nor can I begin to put them in any kind of order. I could probably choose a top five, but the rest of the operas I love are continually jostling for position, probably depending on how recetly I heard them.
> ...
> But carry on. Though I might not be contributing, I'm finding the results quite fascinating.


I agree ... I was able to make a list of 20 but putting them into any sort of order is next to impossible so I don't expect to be contributing.


----------



## The Conte

Tsaraslondon said:


> Well I thought I'd have a go, but I'm afraid I still can't decide on a second rung tope twenty as it were; fifty yes, but twenty is impossible. Nor can I begin to put them in any kind of order. I could probably choose a top five, but the rest of the operas I love are continually jostling for position, probably depending on how recetly I heard them.
> 
> A couple of things that strike me looking at the top ten, and of the voting so far in the second round:-
> 
> Am I the only person who loves Berlioz? *Les Troyens* strikes me as one of the greatest operas ever written and would be one of my top five, but nobody has even voted for any Berlioz yet.
> 
> I am suprised to see so much Puccini in the top 20. I don't think any of his operas would make it into mine, though one or two would doubtless be in my next 20.
> 
> No vote for *Falstaff* yet. Verdi's last opera is an astonishing act of genius. It pains me to see it so neglected.
> 
> But carry on. Though I might not be contributing, I'm finding the results quite fascinating.


Troyens was nominated at least once, it just hasn't been nominated enough to get through. I agree that Troyens is a great opera, but would it be in my top twenty?

N.


----------



## Tsaraslondon

The Conte said:


> Troyens was nominated at least once, it just hasn't been nominated enough to get through. I agree that Troyens is a great opera, but would it be in my top twenty?
> 
> N.


Maybe not in yours, but definitely in mine. As I said, in my top five.


----------



## OperaChic

Tsaraslondon said:


> Well I thought I'd have a go, but I'm afraid I still can't decide on a second rung tope twenty as it were; fifty yes, but twenty is impossible. Nor can I begin to put them in any kind of order. I could probably choose a top five, but the rest of the operas I love are continually jostling for position, probably depending on how recetly I heard them.
> 
> A couple of things that strike me looking at the top ten, and of the voting so far in the second round:-
> 
> Am I the only person who loves Berlioz? *Les Troyens* strikes me as one of the greatest operas ever written and would be one of my top five, but nobody has even voted for any Berlioz yet.
> 
> I am suprised to see so much Puccini in the top 20. I don't think any of his operas would make it into mine, though one or two would doubtless be in my next 20.
> 
> No vote for *Falstaff* yet. Verdi's last opera is an astonishing act of genius. It pains me to see it so neglected.
> 
> But carry on. Though I might not be contributing, I'm finding the results quite fascinating.


Agreed on all counts. And its interesting that this is the third time this sort of opera list thing has been done on this forum, and Falstaff has done surprisingly poorly every time

Also surprised Meistersinger didn't make the top 20; musically and dramatically it is far more complex and sophisticated than the likes of Tannhauser, as good as that opera is.


----------



## Duncan

If ever I needed proof that no one actually reads my posts this page proves it without a shadow of a doubt...

No acknowledgement that "Les Troyens" was nominated three times...

No acknowledgement that "Falstaff" was nominated three times...

Perhaps I should switch back to "visible" ink from "invisible"...

*On holiday until Mid-January... Enjoy the game!

Joyeux Noël et Bonne Année !

- Duncan*


----------



## howlingfantods

Not to belabor the obvious, but if you wish the final list to be more reflective of your tastes, perhaps you should participate. If you refuse to participate, perhaps don't complain about the results.


----------



## Tsaraslondon

howlingfantods said:


> Not to belabor the obvious, but if you wish the final list to be more reflective of your tastes, perhaps you should participate. If you refuse to participate, perhaps don't complain about the results.


I wasn't complaining, I was commenting. There is no need to be so confrontational.


----------



## Tsaraslondon

Mollie John said:


> If ever I needed proof that no one actually reads my posts this page proves it without a shadow of a doubt...
> 
> No acknowledgement that "Les Troyens" was nominated three times...
> 
> No acknowledgement that "Falstaff" was nominated three times...
> 
> Perhaps I should switch back to "visible" ink from "invisible"...
> 
> *On holiday until Mid-January... Enjoy the game!
> 
> Joyeux Noël et Bonne Année !
> 
> - Duncan*


I read it and even checked. Your post was posted whilst I was writing my post and, up until then, nobody _in the 21-40 thread_ had voted for *Les Troyens*. I still can't see any more votes for it in that thread. *Falstaff* got votes _after_ my post and I can still only see two.

People are getting far too hot under the collar. Maybe I'd better just go back to posting in the "What are you listening to now" threads.


----------



## Bulldog

Mollie John said:


> If ever I needed proof that no one actually reads my posts this page proves it without a shadow of a doubt...


Maybe yes, maybe no. Just speaking for myself, I read hundreds of postings each day here at TC. There's no way I remember them all, perhaps only a small percentage.


----------



## DavidA

Tsaraslondon said:


> Well I thought I'd have a go, but I'm afraid I still can't decide on a second rung tope twenty as it were; fifty yes, but twenty is impossible. Nor can I begin to put them in any kind of order. I could probably choose a top five, but the rest of the operas I love are continually jostling for position, probably depending on how recetly I heard them.
> 
> A couple of things that strike me looking at the top ten, and of the voting so far in the second round:-
> 
> Am I the only person who loves Berlioz? *Les Troyens* strikes me as one of the greatest operas ever written and would be one of my top five, but nobody has even voted for any Berlioz yet.
> 
> I am suprised to see so much Puccini in the top 20. I don't think any of his operas would make it into mine, though one or two would doubtless be in my next 20.
> 
> *No vote for Falstaff yet. Verdi's last opera is an astonishing act of genius. *It pains me to see it so neglected.
> 
> But carry on. Though I might not be contributing, I'm finding the results quite fascinating.


As it's the greatest opera after Mozart it's quite astonishing.


----------



## Granate

I don't personally dig into comic opera, and I especially will avoid _Falstaff_ until I have nurtured myself with a very wide range of musical dramas. However, I was delighted to meet _L'Amour des trois Oranges._

Don't make me talk about _Les Troyens_ 

But I just limit myself to count the votes and give mine in the way it affects the result the least.


----------



## SixFootScowl

Tsaraslondon said:


> I read it and even checked. Your post was posted whilst I was writing my post and, up until then, nobody _in the 21-40 thread_ had voted for *Les Troyens*. I still can't see any more votes for it in that thread. *Falstaff* got votes _after_ my post and I can still only see two.
> 
> People are getting far too hot under the collar. Maybe I'd better just go back to posting in the "What are you listening to now" threads.


That gives me an idea. I suppose one who has that kind of free time could go through the What Opera Are You Listening To Know Thread and compile the frequency of each opera being posted in that thread. Might produce some interesting, albeit meaningless, results.


----------



## The Conte

I'm not really surprised by the results of the top twenty favourites so far. Mozart, Verdi, Puccini and Wagner are the backbone of the rep. I might have expected Falstaff to make it in the top twenty instead of Norma, although I much prefer the later work. It's difficult to predict the results because we are looking at _favourite_ opera rather than _greatest_ opera.

I wouldn't have expected Les Troyens to have made it into those (and it was already voted for in the first two rounds more than once), so it may make it into the top 100 - it would certainly make my list of 100 favourite operas (probably at around about the 60 mark).

N.


----------



## Tsaraslondon

The Conte said:


> I'm not really surprised by the results of the top twenty favourites so far. Mozart, Verdi, Puccini and Wagner are the backbone of the rep. I might have expected Falstaff to make it in the top twenty instead of Norma, although I much prefer the later work. It's difficult to predict the results because we are looking at _favourite_ opera rather than _greatest_ opera.
> 
> I wouldn't have expected Les Troyens to have made it into those (and it was already voted for in the first two rounds more than once), so it may make it into the top 100 - it would certainly make my list of 100 favourite operas (probably at around about the 60 mark).
> 
> N.


Must be just me then. With absolute conviction I'm keeping it in my top five. The others would be (well today at least)in no particular order. 
*Norma* (but only if Callas is singing it)
*Queen of Spades*
*Don Carlo*
*La Traviata* (again, probably only if Callas is singing it. Without her it's still one of my favourites but would drop down the rankings a bit.)


----------



## Granate

*List of Operas with one single nomination in 4th Nomination Round of the 2020 Poll*

As the poll advances, members, especially if we are so few, start to disagree about the operas they would nominate to the top. These are all the operas, ordered with the number of points, which was nominated by a single participant in the current 4th round of the poll.

025 - Bellini - Beatrice di Tenda
025 - Berlioz - Les troyens
025 - Glass - Einstein on the Beach 
024 - Rossini - Il turco in Italia
024 - Flotow - Martha
024 - Puccini - La Rondine
024 - Britten - Death in Venice 
023 - Monteverdi - L'Orfeo
023 - Monteverdi - L'incoronazione di Poppea
022 - Cavalli - La Calisto
021 - Berlioz - Benvenuto Cellini
021 - Boughton - The immortal hour 
021 - Saariaho - L'Amour de loin 
020 - Vivaldi - La fida ninfa
019 - d'Albert - Tiefland
019 - R. Strauss - Die Frau ohne Schatten
019 - Lehar - Land des Lächelns
018 - Pergolesi - La serva padrona
018 - Offenbach - Les Contes d'Hoffmann
018 - Puccini - Manon Lescaut 
018 - Korngold - Die Tote Stadt
018 - Ligeti - Le Grand Macabre
017 - Mozart - Idomeneo
017 - Messiaen - Saint François d'Assise 
016 - Cavalli - Eliogabalo
016 - Gluck - Iphigénie en Tauride 
016 - Donizetti - Anna Bolena
016 - Donizetti - La fille du régiment
016 - Mussorgsky - Khovanshchina
016 - Massenet - Werther
016 - Adams - Nixon in China 
015 - Vinci - Artaserse
015 - Verdi - Stiffelio 
015 - Rimsky-Korsakov - May Night
015 - Enescu - Oedipe
014 - Gounod - Roméo et Juliette
014 - Borodin - Prince Igor
014 - Rimsky-Korsakov - "Kitezh"
014 - Thomson - Four Saints in Three Acts
014 - Lachenmann - Das Mädchen mit den Schwefelhölzern
013 - Bellini - Il pirata
013 - Chausson - Le roi Arthus
013 - R. Strauss - Ariadne auf Naxos 
013 - R. Strauss - Daphne
013 - Glass - Akhnaten
012 - Paisiello - "Nina"
012 - Chabrier - Le roi malgré lui
012 - Delius - A Village Romeo and Juliet
012 - Penderecki - The Devils of Loudun
011 - Gluck - Alceste
011 - Prokofiev - The Love for Three Oranges
011 - Berg - Lulu
011 - Alwyn - Miss Julie
011 - Andriessen - Writing to Vermeer
011 - Stockhausen - Licht
010 - Vivaldi - Bajazed
010 - Rossini - Guillaume Tell
010 - Donizetti - Roberto Devereux
010 - Ravel - L'enfant et les sortilèges 
010 - Shostakovich - Lady Macbeth of Mtsensk
010 - Menotti - Amahl and the night visitors 
009 - Marschner - Der vampyr
009 - Glinka - Ruslan and Lyudmila
009 - Smetana - The Bartered Bride
009 - Charpentier - Louise
009 - Britten - The Turn of the Screw 
009 - Furrer - FAMA
008 - Handel - Alcina
008 - Verdi - Attila
008 - Kurtág - Fin de Partie
007 - Wagner - Rienzi
007 - Saint-Saëns - Henry VIII 
007 - Janacek - Katja Kabanova
007 - Neuwirth - Lost Highway
006 - Cherubini - Medea / Medée
006 - Prokofiev - War and Peace
006 - Britten - The rape of Lucretia
006 - Menotti - Help, Help, the Globolinks!
006 - Romitelli - An Index of Metals

Knowing these results, I wanted myself to erase some of the operas I had nominated and that are included in this list so others higher could improve. But before doing a tactical vote, I wanted to share this list with you so you could think about it for next week too.


----------



## The Conte

There are some superb operas in that list - Troyens, Death in Venice and Manon Lescaut just to name three. That is why I think going for our 200 top operas would be worth doing (and I think that was done last time round).

N.


----------



## nina foresti

My 5 choices from that list:
1. Gounod Romeo et Juliette
2.Puccini Manon Lescaut
3. Bellini Il pirata
4. Janacek Katya Kabanova
5. Massenet Werther


----------



## Granate

Hello members.

Nina. If you want, you can already nominate your 20 in the new Nomination poll for 41-50, and continue participating.

However, would you all like to pause the round or give much more time to vote only for this one? It's a tough week with Christmas eve and New Years, so it can be a bit difficult to keep up. What do you think?

*Link for the new thread of 41-60 Positions.* Nomination round 41-50 is open.


----------



## The Conte

Granate said:


> Hello members.
> 
> Nina. If you want, you can already nominate your 20 in the new Nomination poll for 41-50, and continue participating.
> 
> However, would you all like to pause the round or give much more time to vote only for this one? It's a tough week with Christmas eve and New Years, so it can be a bit difficult to keep up. What do you think?
> 
> *Link for the new thread of 41-60 Positions.* Nomination round 41-50 is open.


Erm, we don't seem to have any issues getting the week's nominations in during the fist two days of the allotted time, so I think we will be fine.

N.


----------



## nina foresti

Where do you click for the thread on the Nominations Poll? Where is it?


----------



## Granate

It is highlighted in blue here!



Granate said:


> *Link for the new thread of 41-60 Positions.*


----------



## nina foresti

So I can offer 10 from anything that is not on the top list on that page, right?
(I wonder why there just isn't a thread right here to click on to get me there.)


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## nina foresti

My grateful thanks Granate. I made a shortcut on my desk top.


----------



## SixFootScowl

I just realized if we are nominating for positions 41 - 60 should our lists be numbered accordingly. I and others have been posting our 41-60 lists numbered 1-20.

I see someone posted *a list of only 15 operas*, which leads to my next question: If at any time in the nomination rounds if I don't have 20 more favorite operas to nominate, can I post a shorter list, or will that throw everything off?


----------



## The Conte

Fritz Kobus said:


> I just realized if we are nominating for positions 41 - 60 should our lists be numbered accordingly. I and others have been posting our 41-60 lists numbered 1-20.


I see this could be confusing. The current active thread is for operas 41 - 60, however we are still choosing 10 at a time. So your 20 are nominations for positions 41 - 50. Once we have all nominated then the ten operas that score the most will be listed and then we pick our five from those. We will then have operas 41 - 50 in order of preference. Then we nominate another 20 for operas 51 - 60.

N.


----------



## SixFootScowl

The Conte said:


> I see this could be confusing. The current active thread is for operas 41 - 60, however we are still choosing 10 at a time. So your 20 are nominations for positions 41 - 50. Once we have all nominated then the ten operas that score the most will be listed and then we pick our five from those. We will then have operas 41 - 50 in order of preference. Then we nominate another 20 for operas 51 - 60.
> 
> N.


Excellent clarification. I still wonder what the lists of 5 pertain to.


----------



## The Conte

Fritz Kobus said:


> Excellent clarification. I still wonder what the lists of 5 pertain to.


They are to give everyone a chance to vote on the order of the ten operas chosen. First we choose the ten operas and then rank them in order.

N.


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## Granate

Merry Christmas to all. I cannot thank you enough for your Customer Support Service, Conte. Lots of love and opera.


----------



## Granate

*Recordings poll proposal 2*



Granate said:


> In the 2015 poll, every member voted for a single recording on CD and a single recording on DVD. This resulted in some ties but also the feeling of leaving out many recordings we loved.
> 
> I suggest we use a voting system that can widen the reccomendations more. Giving points to one or two recordings, but with the chance to name two winners as long as they share the price. Only if we really mean it.
> 
> Situation A: only one recording I would like to vote for:
> 
> *Der Ring des Nibelungen:*
> 
> 1) Solti WPO - 4p
> 
> Situation B: two recordings I reccomend, but one more than the other:
> 
> *Der Ring des Nibelungen:*
> 
> 1) Solti WPO - 4p
> 2) Keilberth BFO 55 - 2p
> 
> Situation C: two recordings I reccomend on equal level, sharing points:
> 
> *Der Ring des Nibelungen:*
> 
> 1) Solti WPO - 3p
> 1) Keilberth BFO 55 - 3p
> 
> Situation D: three recordings I reccomend on equal level, sharing points:
> 
> *Der Ring des Nibelungen:*
> 
> 1) Solti WPO - 2p
> 1) Keilberth BFO 55 - 2p
> 1) Karajan BPO - 2p
> 
> These would be the only possibilities. I think it's much clearer than explaining rules literally
> 
> In case of draw, the recording with more first positions wins. But if there's still a draw, should it be resolved or left as it is? I would directly open an extra round for members who didn't vote for any of the two recordings to choose one. If there's still a draw with them, the first vote of the extra round decides the winner.
> 
> Also, for each opera, the results could have more transparency. I'm talking about showing in short comments the number of people that voted and how many voted in style A, B C or D, so readers can tell better the opinion of the members if it was unanimous or balanced (or controversial if there's a near-tie and many members voted in style A or B).


Hello. Already in the second half of the Top 100 operas poll and I gave a thought to this and another thing Fritz Kobus mentioned but couldn't find here in the thread.

I would want you to consider again these proposed rules for the Opera Recordings Poll that will follow the current one. Anyways, Conte thought about giving each member a total of 6 points to allocate as we pleased for recordings of each opera. I would only limit the amount of points one can give to 4 per recording. That means that regardless of the number of recordings you nominate, one or three, each cannot get more than 4 points:

Votes allowed:

4
4+1+1
4+2
3+2+1
3+1+1+1
2+2+2
2+1+1+1+1
1+1+1+1+1+1

Votes not allowed:

6 turns to 4
5 turns to 4
5+1 turns to 4+2

Would you agree with this? Even if you find the above system too complicated, imagine everyone gives 6p votes to different recordings and we have a draw of two or three recordings. That was one thing I didn't like from the results of the 2015 poll.

[HR][/HR]
Fritz Kobus posted somewhere about allocating different threads for the Recordings Poll instead of a single one. But they proposed to create one thread for each opera (I thought it was abusive to make 100 different threads of a single use. Mods cannot really throw threads to the dust bin here).

I was thinking about it yesterday evening getting ready for New Years. I'll try to explain the system of Poll allocation step by step:


The Opera Poll delivers a list of 100 operas
We order the list in Composer Alphabetical order first (Adams to Wagner eg)
Order the groups of compositions by date of birth of the composer
Find the composer with most compositions inside the top 100.
For example, if that one is Wagner and has 10 operas in, The rough limit of operas to vote per thread is 10.
Then, I would propose myself a list of threads to allocate 10 operas each, grouped by composer.
It would look like this:


The 2020 Opera on CD and DVD poll: Monteverdi, Handel, Gluck
The 2020 Opera on CD and DVD poll: Mozart, Beethoven, Rossini
The 2020 Opera on CD and DVD poll: Bellini, Donizetti
The 2020 Opera on CD and DVD poll: Verdi
The 2020 Opera on CD and DVD poll: Wagner
The 2020 Opera on CD and DVD poll: Other great composers from 19th century
The 2020 Opera on CD and DVD poll: Puccini, Mascagni, Leoncavallo
The 2020 Opera on CD and DVD poll: R. Strauss, Berg, Britten
The 2020 Opera on CD and DVD poll: Other great composers from 20th century
Here, I want to ask about the speed of the thread polls, as we could choose to vote for 3 operas at the same time, do 5 or even all of them in 7 days each. It depends on how much time do you want to spend on the poll. Maybe you would like to be given more time before the poll to adress the operas you don't know so well and listen to enough recordings to send a vote.

Is everything clear? How much do you agree with this?

The last remark: I think we will all agree in doing a split vote for recordings of Cycle Operas like the _Ring_ and _Il Trittico_ if there are enough cycle recordings by labels, conductor and cast. Only if _Il Tabarro_ got in the top 100 in this Opera poll.

Like:

_Der Ring Des Nibelungen:_ nominate list for the best cyle on CD and DVD

_Das Rheingold:_ nominate list for the best recordings on CD
_Die Walküre:_ nominate list for the best recordings on CD
_Siegfried:_ nominate list for the best recordings on CD
_Götterdämmerung:_ nominate list for the best recordings on CD
_Il Trittico:_ nominate list for the best cycle on CD and DVD

_Il tabarro:_ nominate list for the best recordings on CD
_Suor Angelica:_ nominate list for the best recordings on CD
_Gianni Schichi:_ nominate list for the best recordings on CD


----------



## The Conte

I really like the points system. 6 points to allocate as you wish, but you can award no more than 4 points to one recording.

I don't see the need for new threads for nominating favourite recordings, why not just have one thread? Then at the end someone can do a thread with just the winners listed in it for future reference.

When it comes to the timing I think we should vote on one opera at a time, it's best to keep it as simple as possible. Perhaps 2-3 days per opera?

I agree about the cycle operas and what about Cav/Pag? That would make the results really interesting.

Since we are discussing how the next steps will work, last time we had the 200 favourite operas, does anyone think that we should go for that number again? With the 50 operas so far chosen and all the other ones nominated we must be over 200 so far and I think we risk some key works not making it into the top 100 which means there won't be a record of favourite recording of that opera. What do others think? (Or 150 favourites, perhaps?)

N.


----------



## Granate

The Conte said:


> When it comes to the timing I think we should vote on one opera at a time, it's best to keep it as simple as possible. Perhaps 2-3 days per opera?


I am afraid that someone misses out the days we are allowing the votes, just by accident.



The Conte said:


> I agree about the cycle operas and what about Cav/Pag? That would make the results really interesting.


Didn't think about it! True!



The Conte said:


> Since we are discussing how the next steps will work, last time we had the 200 favourite operas, does anyone think that we should go for that number again? With the 50 operas so far chosen and all the other ones nominated we must be over 200 so far and I think we risk some key works not making it into the top 100 which means there won't be a record of favourite recording of that opera. What do others think? (Or 150 favourites, perhaps?)


Even in the 2015 Top 100 there was a struggle to find several CDs or DVDs to compete against each other in some operas. One or two of the selected didn't really have a DVD out. I would stretch it to 150, but I'm not sure it is worth at all.


----------



## howlingfantods

looking back at the 2015 thread, it looks like people got some interesting discussion out of doing each opera one at a time, and I do think there's some benefit in going sequentially through the top to the bottom--people are more likely to be more familiar with the most highly recommended operas and to have a larger collection of alternate recordings, so the thread started out with a fair amount of momentum before petering out with infrequently listened to, performed, and recorded operas towards the end. 

I think by the time you get through the first 70 or 80, you get into some operas with very few recordings and very few strong opinions, so you might do something where you give people more days to vote for the first 30, then a little less time for the middle 40, then very little time for the bottom 30 or something.


----------



## Granate

Thank you. I was thinking people would be more interested in certain ages and composers than following the general taste. I would like to know other pieces like Adriana Lecouvreur or Andrea Chénier, or La Gioconda, from 19th century, but so far I'm going to stick with all Verdi, and I think I'll miss out very good pieces. I wasn't very charmed by Boito's _Mefistofele_ back then.


----------



## The Conte

Granate said:


> Even in the 2015 Top 100 there was a struggle to find several CDs or DVDs to compete against each other in some operas. One or two of the selected didn't really have a DVD out. I would stretch it to 150, but I'm not sure it is worth at all.


You are correct that there is no point having operas in the list that only have one recording on CD or DVD (and that unfortunately is an issue for contemporary works). However, there are easily seventy more operas that haven't made it into the list, but which many would consider part of the core rep. Ones that have only been nominated a few times if at all. Manon and Werther, Italiana in Algeri, Lucrezia Borgia, Coronation of Poppea, Ariodante, Capriccio, Rake's Progress, Billy Budd, Orpheus in the Underworld, Die Fledermauss and La Gioconda to name but a few. None of these are particular favourites of mine, but there are several recordings of each and it's worth voting on them IMO.

N.


----------



## SixFootScowl

The Conte said:


> You are correct that there is no point having operas in the list that only have one recording on CD or DVD (and that unfortunately is an issue for contemporary works).
> 
> N.


Well, I somewhat disagree. While true that there is no point picking a favorite recording if there is only one, I think that having the opera represented in the list is important from the aspect of its standing among the other operas. We may want to be careful even then of simply posting it and not voting since there may be non-commercial recordings out there, or are we not including those in this survey (OperaDepot, etc.).


----------



## The Conte

Fritz Kobus said:


> Well, I somewhat disagree. While true that there is no point picking a favorite recording if there is only one, I think that having the opera represented in the list is important from the aspect of its standing among the other operas. We may want to be careful even then of simply posting it and not voting since there may be non-commercial recordings out there, or are we not including those in this survey (OperaDepot, etc.).


True. That does support my point that 100 top operas to vote on is too few, though.

N.


----------



## The Conte

Just pinning this here for ease.

Latest nomination and voting threadl

N.


----------



## The Conte

New nominating and voting thread:

Here

N.


----------



## Granate

Thank you Conte. We need this thread now to discuss something.



Granate said:


> *Honourable mentions:*
> 
> At the end of the project, we also like to keep a list of honourable mentions containing every work that was nominated but didn't make the final list. Hence in the very last nomination round we give people 30 votes instead of 20 to collect more recommendations. Even if some of your works do not make the final list, your input is valued.
> 
> [HR][/HR]
> It is to be decided the method we are going to use precisely for the recommendations outside Top 100, since that the Recordings poll would count until 150.


The end of the poll is close and we need to decide what are we going to do with the other hundred outside the Top 10. I was thinking about respecting the top 30, but I seriously cannot think about other 30 operas I've heard of.

I don't know how are we going to order the Top 101-200. We are currently very few people (I would thank Trout to be here too)

In a list of 30 (35 to 6 points), the position of our rank would establish how high the opera is considered in the rank, even if it is voted by a single person. That means that if we really want an opera to be as close to the Top 100 as we can, we need to place it higher.

Conte was right to include 50 more operas in the top so they enter in the recordings poll. However, the current state of the polls is very poor. Some operas are passing to the top ten with just two nominations. Only 6 members have released their nomination lists from 81-90. And there were lots of draws in the top 10 selected and more below it.

I don't think we are now able to rank another 100 operas from 101-200. If anything, we should try to come up with the 50 first that should enter the recordings poll. I cannot find other way to order the operas than by premiere date, because most of them would count with a single vote.

So what about finishing the ranked Top 100 and just trying to do a list that draws between Top 101-150 and rest (151- etc.)? If there is a single or multiple tie around the 150, we would open another round to untie and decide which gets in.

I hope we could count with all the members that participated in the first round.


----------



## nina foresti

Good idea! I'm in.
(can you say "Falstaff"?)


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## Granate

nina foresti said:


> (can you say "Falstaff"?)


Erm.. not anymore, since it fortunalety will be in the top 100 around 81 and 90.



nina foresti said:


> Shock of shocks: _ Falstaff_ actually may not even be in the final? Insanity!


Why? It is going to be counted in for the recordings poll... I don't get it.


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## SixFootScowl

I am not so concerned with the order of the operas as the personal preferences for recordings on each opera, and my hope is we can have a sticky thread that is indexed (say put the top 100 or 200 operas) in a list (preferably alphabetically by composer) and have each opera title hot linked to the location in the thread where recordings are posted so one can easily look them up. The past listings of top operas are not easy to find in huge dozens-of-page-long threads, but I often look those listings up when pursuing a recording.


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## nina foresti

Granate said:


> Erm.. not anymore, since it fortunalety will be in the top 100 around 81 and 90.
> 
> Why? It is going to be counted in for the recordings poll... I don't get it.


I hope you are right. I DID say "may not". Frankly, it surprises me that this Verdi masterpiece came this far down in the polls.


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## The Conte

I agree with Fritz as I am more interested in the recordings poll, than I am in the order the top 150/200 operas come in. However, whilst I think our list of 100 favourites is superb (most of the key rep is there, whilst also including some rarer works that deserve to be much better known - e.g. Iolanta), there are still some well known operas that aren't likely to make it and of which there exist a number of recordings. I don't mind the method that is used to choose and rank the next operas (101-150 or 101-200), as long as we get a good list to pick our favourite recordings of.

One suggestion I would make is about the awarding of the six points when choosing favourites. We have said that no recording would be awarded more than four points, however that means that if you pick just one recording the maximum you can give it is four points and therefore you might as well pick a second recording and give it two points. Wouldn't it be better to allow five points to be awarded if you pick one and only one recording? Otherwise there is no point picking just one.

N.


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## Granate

It's not that my opinion about the points awarded is unchangeable. I say I'm waiting for more members to agree or disagree with us. In the way of likes or replies. 

Now I'm too focused in the price of the Walter Mozart recordings, excuse me :lol:

By the way, are you going to give your five in the Voting round? You are the only one remaining from the nom round...


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## Granate

Becca said:


> I find it truly mind-boggling that it there is still a question of it getting on the list!





nina foresti said:


> Actually, even if it does make it, to me it is still totally incredible that a work such as that wasn't chosen in the first 20.


*2015 Poll results*



> 51. Mascagni: Cavalleria Rusticana
> 52. Monteverdi: L'incoronazione di Poppea
> *53. Verdi: Falstaff*
> 54. Gluck: Orfeo ed Euridice
> 55. Leoncavallo: Pagliacci
> 56. Berlioz: Les Troyens
> 57. Weber: Der Freischütz
> 58. Rameau: Les Indes galantes
> 59. Ravel: L'enfant et les sortilèges
> 60. Messiaen: Saint François d'Assise


Always funny to watch those who don't dare to play a difficult rank game complain about the results of a poll they are not making the effort to contribute to. I thought they weren't even watching. _*Sue me*_


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## Tsaraslondon

Granate said:


> *2015 Poll results*
> 
> Always funny to watch those who don't dare to play a difficult rank game complain about the results of a poll they are not making the effort to contribute to. I thought they weren't even watching. _*Sue me*_


Not complaining, but watching with interest. I didn't participate because there are so many operas I love and find it hard to put them in any kind of order of preference.

All the same, I am astounded that *Falstaff* only made it to 53 and *Les Troyens* to 56!


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## OperaChic

Tsaraslondon said:


> Not complaining, but watching with interest. I didn't participate because there are so many operas I love and find it hard to put them in any kind of order of preference.
> 
> All the same, I am astounded that *Falstaff* only made it to 53 and *Les Troyens* to 56!


That was the 2015 ranking. On the current list Falstaff came in at an even lower 85, and Les Troyens at 67.


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## howlingfantods

Granate said:


> It's not that my opinion about the points awarded is unchangeable. I say I'm waiting for more members to agree or disagree with us. In the way of likes or replies.
> 
> Now I'm too focused in the price of the Walter Mozart recordings, excuse me :lol:
> 
> By the way, are you going to give your five in the Voting round? You are the only one remaining from the nom round...


I'm in favor of an open ended approach where we can allocate a set number of points however we like--there are some operas where I have a clear favorite that i'll want to give all my points to; some where I think there's two pretty evenly matched ones, or times when there's a clear favorite but another one I want to highlight as a strong second place, or times when I think there are 3 or 4 pretty evenly matched ones with different advantages and drawbacks.


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## The Conte

howlingfantods said:


> I'm in favor of an open ended approach where we can allocate a set number of points however we like--there are some operas where I have a clear favorite that i'll want to give all my points to; some where I think there's two pretty evenly matched ones, or times when there's a clear favorite but another one I want to highlight as a strong second place, or times when I think there are 3 or 4 pretty evenly matched ones with different advantages and drawbacks.


That's pretty much the version we have at the mo (six points to allocate as we wish), however with the proviso that you can't allocate more than four points to any one recording. That would mean that if you only choose one recording it only gets four points and two points are wasted. (Which is why I suggested allowing five points if you choose just one recording.)

N.


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## The Conte

Granate,

how do you suggest we decide on operas in position 101-150? Carry on nominating 20 each time and picking the highest ranking 10 (in other words continue as we are now) or having one big vote of 50 and seeing the 50 in the top positions?

N.


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## Tsaraslondon

OperaChic said:


> That was the 2015 ranking. On the current list Falstaff came in at an even lower 85, and Les Troyens at 67.


Even more astounded then!


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## Becca

Granate said:


> *2015 Poll results*
> 
> Always funny to watch those who don't dare to play a difficult rank game complain about the results of a poll they are not making the effort to contribute to. I thought they weren't even watching. _*Sue me*_


'Dare'? Difficult? Give me a break! Despite having made one contribution, I did make it quite clear why I wasn't going to participate, but that doesn't mean that I don't look or have an opinion about the results.


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## Tsaraslondon

Becca said:


> 'Dare'? Difficult? Give me a break! Despite having made one contribution, I did make it quite clear why I wasn't going to participate, but that doesn't mean that I don't look or have an opinion about the results.


There seem to be a few here who don't know the difference between comment and criticism.


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## Woodduck

When I see the lowly status on this poll of some of the operas I consider among the greatest, I don't know whether to regret not adding my two cents worth or to be glad I had no part in the scandal.



The latter, I think.


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## nina foresti

Simmer down, children.
It's purely a game -- for fun ... I think

This was fun even if I personally think some of the finest operas were left to the very end.
Everything is subjective and it's silly to criticize or take the game that seriously.
Life's short. Smile more.

I want to thank Granate for taking the time and having the patience to record all of the choices. That's a lot work.
Grazie!


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## The Conte

Woodduck said:


> When I see the lowly status on this poll of some of the operas I consider among the greatest, I don't know whether to regret not adding my two cents worth or to be glad I had no part in the scandal.
> 
> 
> 
> The latter, I think.


It was a poll of _favourite_ operas and I think the results were both fairly predictable and pleasantly surprising, seeing some lesser performed (yet deserving) works were included. Had it been a poll of _greatest_ operas I would have voted differently and both Troyens and Falstaff would have been higher up my list.

N.


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## OperaChic

The Conte said:


> It was a poll of _favourite_ operas and I think the results were both fairly predictable and pleasantly surprising, seeing some lesser performed (yet deserving) works were included. Had it been a poll of _greatest_ operas I would have voted differently and both Troyens and Falstaff would have been higher up my list.
> 
> N.


The last two polls were also based on personal preference, so the current results are anything but predictable. It just reflects the tastes of it's small sample size of participants.

Troyens, Falstaff, Cosi fan Tutte (which fell all the way to 59), Porgy and Bess (one of the true masterpieces and peaks of American classical music but has so far been omitted from the list) among others would be much higher up on my list no matter _what_ the voting crieria.


----------



## The Conte

OperaChic said:


> The last two polls were also based on personal preference, so the current results are anything but predictable. It just reflects the tastes of it's small sample size of participants.
> 
> Troyens, Falstaff, Cosi fan Tutte (which fell all the way to 59), Porgy and Bess (one of the true masterpieces and peaks of American classical music but has so far been omitted from the list) among others would be much higher up on my list no matter _what_ the voting crieria.


It's true to say that the last two polls gave more unexpected results and therefore, literally speaking, the results of none of the three are predictable. However, figuratively speaking (which is what I meant) the latest has far more frequently performed operas near the top and less rarities in the overall poll. (Although that may be just my impression.)

Whilst I find it difficult to comprehend why some operas aren't in the top 100 (more Rossini and Donizetti comedy) or how Pelleas made it so near the top, since the selection criteria is solely down to personal taste, that is it's own explanation. Chcun a son gout!

N.


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## nina foresti

Porgy & Bess!! Now what's WRONG with me? How could I forget this fine offering over many others on my list?
Brain failure!


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## Granate

I'll try to reply individually. I want to thank you for your support and patience, too.



The Conte said:


> Granate,
> 
> how do you suggest we decide on operas in position 101-150? Carry on nominating 20 each time and picking the highest ranking 10 (in other words continue as we are now) or having one big vote of 50 and seeing the 50 in the top positions?
> 
> N.


I had suggested that following the rules (Honourable mentions), we were all going to participate in a single Nomination round where we nominate with points (35-6) up to 30 different works (because it's another matter that we know 30 works apart from the 100 famous selected). I'm sure there will be lots of ties because I suppose we are all running out of ideas because we don't know that many operas. So the ties in points are ordered by premiere date.

Another proposition, different from the rule explained, is to continue the way we are doing our votes: that is, lists of 20 at each time, but no voting round and two nomination rounds per week. It would be a bit slower, but the rank would be a bit fairer with no draws by premiere date. Would you all be willing to make the effort?



howlingfantods said:


> I'm in favor of an open ended approach where we can allocate a set number of points however we like--there are some operas where I have a clear favorite that i'll want to give all my points to; some where I think there's two pretty evenly matched ones, or times when there's a clear favorite but another one I want to highlight as a strong second place, or times when I think there are 3 or 4 pretty evenly matched ones with different advantages and drawbacks.





The Conte said:


> That's pretty much the version we have at the mo (six points to allocate as we wish), however with the proviso that you can't allocate more than four points to any one recording. That would mean that if you only choose one recording it only gets four points and two points are wasted. (Which is why I suggested allowing five points if you choose just one recording.)
> 
> N.


Ok, I give up  My arguments haven't been successful. I still think that to provide a guide to the reader is important, but your position has been more supported so far.

*Simple rule:* 6 points available (integers!) for members to allocate up to 6 opera recordings.

I still suggest that we have a rule in case of tie between recordings, like an extra round to choose between one of the two or three winners, only available to those who didn't vote for those recordings. If that's not the case, the recording with the biggest number of max scores would untie. Still better than a nomination round.


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## StDior

Granate said:


> I had suggested that following the rules (Honourable mentions), we were all going to participate in a single Nomination round where we nominate with points (35-6) up to 30 different works (because it's another matter that we know 30 works apart from the 100 famous selected). I'm sure there will be lots of ties because I suppose we are all running out of ideas because we don't know that many operas. So the ties in points are ordered by premiere date.
> 
> Another proposition, different from the rule explained, is to continue the way we are doing our votes: that is, lists of 20 at each time, but no voting round and two nomination rounds per week. It would be a bit slower, but the rank would be a bit fairer with no draws by premiere date. Would you all be willing to make the effort?


I would choose the first method. Single nomination round for decide the order from 101 to 150. 
Some small modification recommendations: Instead of 30, 20 operas would be enough to nominate.
Even with 20 operas nomination, we could do not only a top150 but a top200 list. 
In case of tie, I would decide based on the positions of operas in the very first nomination round (which selected the Top10 at the begining of the project). At further tie, the decision would be based on the second nomination round positions and so on.
Anyway, however the majority decide, I participate further.


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## The Conte

Granate said:


> I had suggested that following the rules (Honourable mentions), we were all going to participate in a single Nomination round where we nominate with points (35-6) up to 30 different works (because it's another matter that we know 30 works apart from the 100 famous selected). I'm sure there will be lots of ties because I suppose we are all running out of ideas because we don't know that many operas. So the ties in points are ordered by premiere date.


I know plenty of operas (enough to make a list of 300!) And judging by the number of obscure works on people's lists I don't think I'm the only one. I DO agree with the idea of listing 30 favourites and then compiling numbers 101 - 150 from those lists, however, since some of the lists have some very obscure works I'm not sure how they will work when we choose recordings. Perhaps nominate 30 operas each for the next 101 - 120 places and then a further 30 for 121 - 140, then a final 20 for the final ten?

We could then have another 30 operas to make up a list of honorable mentions for positions 151 - 200 without going on to choose recordings for them.



Granate said:


> *Simple rule:* 6 points avoting round and two nomination rounds per week. It would be a bit slower, but the rank would be a bit fairer with no draws by premiere date. Would you all be willing to make the effort?vailable (integers!) for members to allocate up to 6 opera recordings.
> 
> I still suggest that we have a rule in case of tie between recordings, like an extra round to choose between one of the two or three winners, only available to those who didn't vote for those recordings. If that's not the case, the recording with the biggest number of max scores would untie. Still better than a nomination round.


I love this, although why not let a tie be a tie? In some cases there is more than one 'best' or favourite recording.

N.


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## The Conte

We now have our list of TC 100 favourite operas and it is an eclectic and interesting selection. 

Whilst I think most of the ones chosen are what I would have expected from the posters who took part, I am a little surprised that the following major works didn't make it into the top 100 (and may not make it into the top 150!)

Damnation de Faust
I Puritani
The Bartered Bride
L'incoronazione di Poppea
Don Pasquale
L'Italiana in Algeri

These aren't all favourites of mine, but are more commonly performed than some of the operas that made it onto the list. Then again, that has made it a fascinating exercise.

Granate, how are we going to proceed to nominate operas in positions 101 - 150?

N.


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## Granate

I'm feeling sick. Give me a little time to count your votes.

Ok. I counted Conte's votes for the voting round too. I think we were ok with the original plan: the single round of nominations. I think we have enough operas to get a top 200, but not much more. However, I'm in favour of opening an extra round to untie the ones with only one nomination vote.

When should it start, I don't know, I would thank a week of rest... I don't feel well.


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## SixFootScowl

Granate said:


> I'm feeling sick. Give me a little time to count your votes.
> 
> Ok. I counted Conte's votes for the voting round too. I think we were ok with the original plan: the single round of nominations. I think we have enough operas to get a top 200, but not much more. However, I'm in favour of opening an extra round to untie the ones with only one nomination vote.
> 
> When should it start, I don't know, I would thank a week of rest... I don't feel well.


I am all for your getting completely well before tackling a big task like this.


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## Art Rock

Get well first Granate. Far more important!


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## The Conte

Get well soon!

N.


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## nina foresti

Ditto! Ditto! Ditto!:tiphat:


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## Granate

Hey. How are you all. I recovered the following Tuesday, but it was really nice to have some time away from the forum and especially the poll. I was busier at work anyways. Next week should start the final nomination round as we talked. What should we do about the recordings poll? Soon or later?


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## HenryPenfold

Well, I missed the voting but I'll post my favourite top 20 operas in no particular order (apart from 1-5):

1) Der Ring Des Nibelungen - Wagner
2) Wozzeck - Berg 
3) Death In Venice - Britten
4) The Mask Of Orpheus - Birtwistle
5) A Midsummer Night's Dream - Britten
6) Punch & Judy - Birtwistle
7) Don Giovanni - Mozart
8) Pelleas Et Melisande - Debussy
9) Owen Wingrave - Britten
10) La Bohem - Puccini
11) Licht - Stockhausen
12) Akhnaten - Glass
13) Parsifal - Wagner
14) Tristan Und Isolde - Wagner
15) Saint François d'Assise - Messiaen
16) The Minotaur - Birtwistle
17) Peter Grimes - Britten
18) Billy Budd - Britten
19) Greek - Turnage
20) The Ice Break - Tippett


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## The Conte

Granate said:


> Hey. How are you all. I recovered the following Tuesday, but it was really nice to have some time away from the forum and especially the poll. I was busier at work anyways. Next week should start the final nomination round as we talked. What should we do about the recordings poll? Soon or later?


Once we have the final list of top 150/200+ operas, perhaps give it a week and then we can start voting for recordings.

N.


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## The Conte

When is the next nominating round starting? (The one where we put forward 30 candidates for positions 101 to 200.)

N.


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## The Conte

Nominations for positions 101 - 200 are happening here:

Nos 81-100+ - 2020 TC Top 100+ Recommended Operas List

N.


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## The Conte

Isn't time up for nominations for the top 200+ favourites?

N.


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## Granate

The Conte said:


> Isn't time up for nominations for the top 200+ favourites?
> 
> N.


Wow, even more? Ok... I now have the time to count the nominations of the Top 100+ while I listen to the ultra-expanded Don Carlos conducted by Bertrand de Billy in Vienna. Worth it for the orchestra alone.


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## The Conte

This seems to have been missed. Granate, no rush if you are busy, but is the list of 100+ favourite operas ready to be published?

N.


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## WildThing

I believe the reason for the 2015 remake list was to offer an oppurtunity for a broader spectrum and larger pool of voters, since the original list was compiled by about a dozen users in the opera forum. For whatever reason, this latest attempt just didn't gain much attention or interest, and the participation was quite low, especially towards the end where the list is basically reflecting the tastes of...5, 6 users?

The results have certainly been interesting to say the least, but I don't see any reason why it should replace either of the other lists as a stickied "recommendation" list. The first two lists are far more diverse and inclusive, especially in regards to baroque and 20th/21st century works.


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## The Conte

WildThing said:


> I believe the reason for the 2015 remake list was to offer an oppurtunity for a broader spectrum and larger pool of voters, since the original list was compiled by about a dozen users in the opera forum. For whatever reason, this latest attempt just didn't gain much attention or interest, and the participation was quite low, especially towards the end where the list is basically reflecting the tastes of...5, 6 users?
> 
> The results have certainly been interesting to say the least, but I don't see any reason why it should replace either of the other lists as a stickied "recommendation" list. The first two lists are far more diverse and inclusive, especially in regards to baroque and 20th/21st century works.


I'm not suggesting the list be stickied as a recommendation list (and it is a shame that it wasn't more popular), however the results should still be published and more people may take part when we get to the favourite recordings part of the exercise.

N.


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## howlingfantods

WildThing said:


> The results have certainly been interesting to say the least, but I don't see any reason why it should replace either of the other lists as a stickied "recommendation" list. The first two lists are far more diverse and inclusive, especially in regards to baroque and 20th/21st century works.


I guess I question whether being diverse and inclusive of more baroque and 20th/21st century works is necessarily better. If someone said they're interested in opera, and asked if I would recommend a night out watching, say, L'Amour de Loin (on both the prior lists iirc) or or L'amico Fritz (new this year), I'd say L'amico Fritz without a second's hesitation--it's full of great, memorable music and is a lot of fun, whereas L'Amour de Loin is extremely dull homework that Alex Ross is forcing you to do.

And in any case, the sort of person who would rather opt for L'Amour de Loin or Le Grande Macabre or Saint Francois d'Assise surely doesn't need a list like this to suggest those works.

But new opera fans who enjoy the core repertoire and is interested in some new suggestions may find the listings new to the list (Fedora, L'amico Fritz, Attila, Mazeppa) much more to their liking, and I'd say this year's list is generally more the kind of thing I might actually direct someone new'ish to opera to over the prior years' lists.


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## WildThing

howlingfantods said:


> I guess I question whether being diverse and inclusive of more baroque and 20th/21st century works is necessarily better. If someone said they're interested in opera, and asked if I would recommend a night out watching, say, L'Amour de Loin (on both the prior lists iirc) or or L'amico Fritz (new this year), I'd say L'amico Fritz without a second's hesitation--it's full of great, memorable music and is a lot of fun, whereas L'Amour de Loin is extremely dull homework that Alex Ross is forcing you to do.
> 
> And in any case, the sort of person who would rather opt for L'Amour de Loin or Le Grande Macabre or Saint Francois d'Assise surely doesn't need a list like this to suggest those works.
> 
> But new opera fans who enjoy the core repertoire and is interested in some new suggestions may find the listings new to the list (Fedora, L'amico Fritz, Attila, Mazeppa) much more to their liking, and I'd say this year's list is generally more the kind of thing I might actually direct someone new'ish to opera to over the prior years' lists.


You prefer L'amico Fritz, I actually much prefer L'Amour de Loin. Of course, given the fact that you were one of the handful of users whose tastes largely shaped the current list, its not surprising you prefer this one to the others :lol: I'm not even talking personal preferences. I'm not sure why someone who would prefer L'Amour de Loin or Le Grande Macabre wouldn't need this list, whereas someone who loves Cavalleria rusticana or Pagliacci or Tosca would need it to discover L'amico Fritz. Perhaps the person loves modern/contemporary classical music and wants to hear some opera that would be more in line with their tastes -- the previous lists gives them some idea where to turn. Therefore, I'm just saying as a "starter" list, in an attempt to expose someone relatively new to opera to the great works in the genre in its 400 year history, and recogniszing that there are plenty of people out there who prefer an opera by Monteverdi or Berg to one by Puccini or Verdi, the previous lists cover a broader spectrum of what is out there.


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## howlingfantods

WildThing said:


> I'm not even talking personal preferences. I'm not sure why someone who would prefer L'Amour de Loin or Le Grande Macabre wouldn't need this list, whereas someone who loves Cavalleria rusticana or Pagliacci or Tosca would need it to discover L'amico Fritz.


I think the argument I'm making is that people who would be interested in opera by Messiaen or Saariaho or Ligeti or Stockhausen are the sorts of people who are generally interested in Messiaen or Saariaho or Ligeti or Stuckhausen, not the sorts of people who are interested in opera as a whole, since opera as a whole is largely an artform that flourished from the 18th century through the first half of the 20th.

Or to put it another way, most people who listen to mostly Verdi and Mozart rarely want to put on a recording of Licht. But they may be open to listening to a recording of Mazeppa.


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## WildThing

howlingfantods said:


> I think the argument I'm making is that people who would be interested in opera by Messiaen or Saariaho or Ligeti or Stockhausen are the sorts of people who are generally interested in Messiaen or Saariaho or Ligeti or Stuckhausen, not the sorts of people who are interested in opera as a whole, since opera as a whole is largely an artform that flourished from the 18th century through the first half of the 20th.
> 
> Or to put it another way, most people who listen to mostly Verdi and Mozart rarely want to put on a recording of Licht. But they may be open to listening to a recording of Mazeppa.


And I guess the argument I'm making is someone who finds they don't particularly care for 19th and early 20th century opera, particularly 19th and early 20th century Italian opera, would most likely be turned off by the current list. Whereas the previous lists held plenty of pre-19th century and 20/21st century operas in much higher regard, allowing all sorts of listeners to find something to enjoy -- those who primarily listen to baroque music perhaps, or even those who *gasp* enjoy Ligeti and Sarriaho and might enjoy Nixon in China.


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## The Conte

There's another element here and that is the next stage where favourite recordings are choosen. How many recordings of Le grand macabre, L'amour de loin or Nixon in China are there to choose from?

N.


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## Granate

The Conte said:


> This seems to have been missed. Granate, no rush if you are busy, but is the list of 100+ favourite operas ready to be published?
> 
> N.


Well, after so many weeks of polls, I was so relieved to stop counting. I still need to untie a few operas but you know there will be a lot of ties.

Wildthing, it's not about you, but the reason for this Opera poll was to update the survey of tastes that members had in this forum. It could have been made a point about asking for musical reasons instead of "favourites", but oh, in one month before starting, none of those people cared, and when they want to complain about the Falstaff scandal it's too late and there's a lot of work done. This time the Recordings poll will use the new 150 list and should be published (rather than voted) by order of premiere.

You know I'm too ignorant to take part in any poll about works or composers. I simply don't know enough, but I think I have known enough different Operas to set a list of "favourites" and confront it with others.


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## howlingfantods

WildThing said:


> And I guess the argument I'm making is someone who finds they don't particularly care for 19th and early 20th century opera, particularly 19th and early 20th century Italian opera, would most likely be turned off by the current list. Whereas the previous lists held plenty of pre-19th century and 20/21st century operas in much higher regard, allowing all sorts of listeners to find something to enjoy -- those who primarily listen to baroque music perhaps, or even those who *gasp* enjoy Ligeti and Sarriaho and might enjoy Nixon in China.


No luck on Ligeti or Adams, but Sariaho did get in the list, just lower than in prior years. Stockhausen, Glass, Penderecki, Martinu, Weinberg, Nono etc, too along with a number of Baroque operas.

I've been thinking about this exchange and there's one thing I kept coming back to -- I don't believe there's an absolute value on "diversity" as you describe it, but I do think there's an absolute value from the perspective of those who are interested in maintaining an active and lively community here to promote the work of those like Granate and Science who put in the considerable effort in updating and organizing these lists. It would be a slap to the face to Granate, and all the people who participated, to say, "Wildthing doesn't like the results, so we can't pin this one like we did the last one".

And not to beat a dead horse here, but if you wanted different results, you could have always participated. I don't understand those who stand on the sidelines and jeer the results.


----------



## WildThing

howlingfantods said:


> No luck on Ligeti or Adams, but Sariaho did get in the list, just lower than in prior years. Stockhausen, Glass, Penderecki, Martinu, Weinberg, Nono etc, too along with a number of Baroque operas.
> 
> I've been thinking about this exchange and there's one thing I kept coming back to -- I don't believe there's an absolute value on "diversity" as you describe it, but I do think there's an absolute value from the perspective of those who are interested in maintaining an active and lively community here to promote the work of those like Granate and Science who put in the considerable effort in updating and organizing these lists. It would be a slap to the face to Granate, and all the people who participated, to say, "Wildthing doesn't like the results, so we can't pin this one like we did the last one".
> 
> And not to beat a dead horse here, but if you wanted different results, you could have always participated. I don't understand those who stand on the sidelines and jeer the results.


Again. This isn't about how much I like or dislike the list. In the end I stick by what I've said before regarding the previous lists I'm comparison to this one. But the bigger issue is there are just a handful a people involved in making this current list. I understand the sentiment in wanting to make a list that reflects the taste of the active membership of the board, and can sympathize with the work that goes into organzing it. But if hardly anyone participates, then it doesn't really do that.

There is no way to create a list that reflects the tastes of active users anyways, as people come and go so often we would have to make a new list every 6 months to accomplish that. There have been several other talkclassical recommended lists on everything from lieder to symphonies to piano trios. They were never meant to reflect the ever changing tastes of the board, and all those other lists have only been done once. This is the third time operas have been done, with the lowest voter turn out yet.

Give me a break with this "jeering and the results". This is a discussion thread to discuss and offer commentary. That's exactly what I'm doing.


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## howlingfantods

Hey Granate--did you send the results to a mod to create a thread to pin the results? looks like that's what happened for the 2015, yeah? and do you have any thoughts about when to start the recordings voting? Do you want any help with any part of that?


----------



## nina foresti

WildThing said:


> Again. This isn't about how much I like or dislike the list. In the end I stick by what I've said before regarding the previous lists I'm comparison to this one. But the bigger issue is there are just a handful a people involved in making this current list. I understand the sentiment in wanting to make a list that reflects the taste of the active membership of the board, and can sympathize with the work that goes into organzing it. But if hardly anyone participates, then it doesn't really do that.
> 
> There is no way to create a list that reflects the tastes of active users anyways, as people come and go so often we would have to make a new list every 6 months to accomplish that. There have been several other talkclassical recommended lists on everything from lieder to symphonies to piano trios. They were never meant to reflect the ever changing tastes of the board, and all those other lists have only been done once. This is the third time operas have been done, with the lowest voter turn out yet.
> 
> Give me a break with this "jeering and the results". This is a discussion thread to discuss and offer commentary. That's exactly what I'm doing.


You certainly make some very valid points Wild Thing but, speaking entirely for myself, you missed one factor that ticks the right square for me -- and that is, regardless of its authenticity, I found voting for one's favorites to be like a game -- a fun game -- and I'd participate again. Gives me lightness of being. Can't beat that!


----------



## Granate

Hello. I don't know if we can satisfied with the results of the 100-200 tier when it isn't closed because of a tie for the last place. But surely, I should send it to a mod.

About the Recordings round. Ok, the voting system seems to be clear, and the order of operas too, but I would ask you if you would like a faster process with a round of 5 operas each week, or would members be more motivated to vote for recordings of a single opera every three days? I would be in favour of this last one.

I would advise to create the list of recordings and Video performances you want to vote to before the beginning of the process. You could always change your list before the turn happens, or even send the vote to me privately if you're going to be away from the forum for some days.

I was talking about giving one month, like we could start this by April fools. Let me check out other posts here to remember the thread system.



Granate said:


> I think we will all agree in doing a split vote for recordings of Cycle Operas like the _Ring_ and _Il Trittico_ if there are enough cycle recordings by labels, conductor and cast. Only if _Il Tabarro_ got in the top 100 in this Opera poll.
> 
> Like:
> 
> _Der Ring Des Nibelungen:_ nominate list for the best cyle on CD and DVD
> 
> _Das Rheingold:_ nominate list for the best recordings on CD
> _Die Walküre:_ nominate list for the best recordings on CD
> _Siegfried:_ nominate list for the best recordings on CD
> _Götterdämmerung:_ nominate list for the best recordings on CD
> _Il Trittico:_ nominate list for the best cycle on CD and DVD
> 
> _Il tabarro:_ nominate list for the best recordings on CD
> _Suor Angelica:_ nominate list for the best recordings on CD
> _Gianni Schichi:_ nominate list for the best recordings on CD
> _CavPag:_ nominate list for the best cycle on CD and DVD
> 
> _Cavalleria Rusticana:_ nominate list for the best recordings on CD
> _Pagliacci:_ nominate list for the best recordings on CD


----------



## howlingfantods

Granate said:


> Hello. I don't know if we can satisfied with the results of the 100-200 tier when it isn't closed because of a tie for the last place. But surely, I should send it to a mod.


I think ending up with 203 is just fine, they ended up with 272 in 2010 after all.



> About the Recordings round. Ok, the voting system seems to be clear, and the order of operas too, but I would ask you if you would like a faster process with a round of 5 operas each week, or would members be more motivated to vote for recordings of a single opera every three days? I would be in favour of this last one.


I think 2 or 3 days per opera is a good idea, especially for the first 100. The second hundred might not need that much time--there are a few operas in the second hundred with several compelling competing recordings, but the majority of them have very few recorded versions.


----------



## The Conte

I agree with your suggestions Granate, three days to vote on each opera looks good.

N.


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## howlingfantods

I think I'd lean to 2 days over 3 come to think of it--200 days is a little over 6 months, which seems like a better timeframe than 300 days, about 10 months, to get through the voting for the first 100.


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## Granate

I need to save time to manage this: send the Opera list to the mods and begin to prepare the threads and start the poll soon. Don't sign off that I may fall ill from corona soon. I'm almost 25 and very healthy, so I'm not in danger.


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## Granate

Hello. I've been thinking for a while of just kicking off the *Recordings poll*. I still need to send to the mod the 200+ list. You know how I ended mentally about this. Yesterday and today it's like I'm having an argument with a "friend" and reflecting about my life again.

I would need to send all the boards and results to the new laptop since I'm using it more than the old one. I'm particularly not in a mood for Opera listening although from time to time I'm listening to my CD recordings. Today's Knappertsbusch Bayreuth 1955 _Höllander_.

Since we are mostly all in lockdown, should we think again about a faster pace since there are less posibilities we miss out? Also, it's like when it ends the quarantine, the last thing we want to do is to keep logging in and voting every day... What do you think?

I should combine this with Home-working and my final masters project which has kicked off too.

I'm definetely about 1 opera every two days, but I don't know if you think we should do 2.

About the first post, in which we would start voting for Wagner's Ring, we would we voting for two days for the entire Ring on CD and DVD, and then two for each of the single operas included on CD. That makes 10 days in which everyone would be welcome to enjoy and could place their votes within those ten days... Is it a good idea?


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## The Conte

I'm not working at the moment (although I do have some personal admin to do), but I still have time to vote as I'm not going out in the evenings. There may be others, however, who are having to work at the moment, so perhaps a two day time frame would be best?

N.


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## Rogerx

Granate said:


> Hello. I've been thinking for a while of just kicking off the *Recordings poll*. I still need to send to the mod the 200+ list. You know how I ended mentally about this. Yesterday and today it's like I'm having an argument with a "friend" and reflecting about my life again.
> 
> I would need to send all the boards and results to the new laptop since I'm using it more than the old one. I'm particularly not in a mood for Opera listening although from time to time I'm listening to my CD recordings. Today's Knappertsbusch Bayreuth 1955 _Höllander_.
> 
> Since we are mostly all in lockdown, should we think again about a faster pace since there are less posibilities we miss out? Also, it's like when it ends the quarantine, the last thing we want to do is to keep logging in and voting every day... What do you think?
> 
> I should combine this with Home-working and my final masters project which has kicked off too.
> 
> I'm definetely about 1 opera every two days, but I don't know if you think we should do 2.
> 
> About the first post, in which we would start voting for Wagner's Ring, we would we voting for two days for the entire Ring on CD and DVD, and then two for each of the single operas included on CD. That makes 10 days in which everyone would be welcome to enjoy and could place their votes within those ten days... Is it a good idea?


How simple can it be, if the participants in the voting round cast there vote every two days, those who did not , like myself, just stay out.


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## The Conte

Rogerx said:


> How simple can it be, if the participants in the voting round cast there vote every two days, those who did not , like myself, just stay out.


I don't think anyone should be excluded. Whether people voted for the 200+ favourite the operas to vote on or not, everyone can vote on their favourite recordings. There will also be people who don't want to take part, but that's fine too. I feel that whether to take part or not should be entirely voluntary and solely down to what each individual would like to do.

The only restrictions are that those who choose to take part have to follow the scoring rules.

N.


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## Rogerx

The Conte said:


> I don't think anyone should be excluded. Whether people voted for the 200+ favourite the operas to vote on or not, everyone can vote on their favourite recordings. There will also be people who don't want to take part, but that's fine too. I feel that whether to take part or not should be entirely voluntary and solely down to what each individual would like to do.
> 
> The only restrictions are that those who choose to take part have to follow the scoring rules.
> 
> N.


So from all the names I saw in the list there are hardly recording, you get a endless list on "unknown by me" or words like that.
For the well known we van see the outcome already. Just my two cents.


----------



## Granate

Rogerx said:


> How simple can it be, if the participants in the voting round cast there vote every two days, those who did not , like myself, just stay out.


Sorry, I don't really get it. We are all going to vote based on what we know and what we like. I'm also going to skip lots of operas I don't know well. I get the feeling you have lots of knowledge about DVD recordings. Among others, your contribution can be really helpful to the poll.



Rogerx said:


> So from all the names I saw in the list there are hardly recording, you get a endless list on "unknown by me" or words like that.
> For the well known we van see the outcome already. Just my two cents.


No, Roger, this time we are not expected to say we don't know an opera so the organiser (me) acknowledges it. I've also seen it in the previous 2015 poll and some go to the extent of insulting the work. I will flag any comment of this kind to the mods so they modify the post to delete or only include the voting. It's not the place to discussing works. Lots of threads have been place for it.


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## Granate

Double post..............


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## The Conte

Rogerx said:


> So from all the names I saw in the list there are hardly recording, you get a endless list on "unknown by me" or words like that.
> For the well known we van see the outcome already. Just my two cents.


Maybe I've misunderstood. I thought you meant that only those who voted for their 200+ favourites should be able to vote for their favourite recordings and that "those who did not , like myself, just stay out" and not vote for their favourite recordings of any of the operas! In other words not vote at all.

Perhaps you meant that those who wish to score recordings for a particular opera should and those who don't should just not post rather than saying "Don't know it", "Don't like it" etc. If this second one, then yes, I agree that makes sense.

N.


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## Granate

*Draft for Final process of the 2020 Opera on CD and DVD poll*

*Voting process:* idem for CDs and DVD


6 points available (integers!) for members to allocate up to 6 opera recordings or performances.
Please, don't post pictures, but text with Conductor - Orchestra, and date or performers if necessary
48h to deliver the votes in each Operatic work (new poll every 2 days)
Do not post if you pass from the work 
Votes in advance are accepted on DM. Please check the 2020 Opera Recommendations list (1-150) and send it to me.
*Number of threads:* New one every 10 operas 1-10, then a single one for positions 101-150

*Ties:* the recording with equal points but more members voting beats the other.

*Exceptions in the process:* 2-part voting rounds: complete cycle and spare operas

_Der Ring Des Nibelungen:_ nominate list for the best cyle on CD and DVD

_Das Rheingold:_ nominate list for the best recordings on CD
_Die Walküre:_ nominate list for the best recordings on CD
_Siegfried:_ nominate list for the best recordings on CD
_Götterdämmerung:_ nominate list for the best recordings on CD
_Il Trittico:_ nominate list for the best cycle on CD and DVD

_Il tabarro:_ nominate list for the best recordings on CD
_Suor Angelica:_ nominate list for the best recordings on CD
_Gianni Schichi:_ nominate list for the best recordings on CD
_Licht:_ nominate list for the best cycle on CD and DVD

*Example*

April 1st

*Wagner - Der Ring des Nibelungen on CD*

Solti WPO - 3p
Karajan BPO - 1p
Janowski SKD - 1p
Thielemann WStO - 1p
*Wagner - Der Ring des Nibelungen on DVD*

Haenchen De Nederlandse Opera - 4p
Levine Met 1991 - 1p
Barenboim Bayreuth 91-92 - 1p
April 3rd

*Wagner - Das Rheingold on CD*

Konwitschny ROH CG 1959 - 6p
April 5th

*Wagner - Die Walküre on CD*

Böhm Bayreuth Philips 1967 - 5p
Leinsdorf LSO - 1p
April 7th

*Wagner - Siegfried on CD*

Keilberth Bayreuth 1955 - 1p
Keilberth Bayreuth 1953 - 1p
Keilberth Bayreuth 1952 - 1p
Furtwängler Scala 50 - 1p
Sawallisch BaySO Warner EMI - 1p
Haitink Bayerischen Rundfunks - 1p
April 9th

*Wagner - Götterdämmerung on CD*

Solti WPO - 2p
Karajan BPO - 2p
Konwitschny ROH CG - 2p
April 11th

*Berlioz - Les Troyens on CD*

Nelson Strasbourg - 5p
Dutoit Montréal - 1p
*Berlioz - Les Troyens on DVD*

Pappano ROH CG - 3p
Gergiev Valencia - 3p


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## howlingfantods

Feels a little excessive to give the same amount of time for each of the operas in a cycle, like I could understand one voting round for the Ring, and then one more voting round for all the individual 4. But it's your party!


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## Granate

howlingfantods said:


> Feels a little excessive to give the same amount of time for each of the operas in a cycle, like I could understand one voting round for the Ring, and then one more voting round for all the individual 4. But it's your party!


Ok! Why not? It's *our* party! That's why I posted this draft to know how much would you agree.


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## SixFootScowl

Granate said:


> *Voting process:* idem for CDs and DVD
> Please, don't post pictures, but text with Conductor - Orchestra, and date or performers if necessary


I do like pictures, but it certainly can clog up the thread, and some years out many of them may be gone. However, I would recommend that when we post the performance, we can link it to a picture for those (like me) who love to look at pictures, and it may be that a particular release has better sound.


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## Granate

^^

If you mean the results of the Recording poll, I'll try to look myself or talk with the mods for a shared image account that holds all the covers of the recordings, uploaded by me. That way they shouldn't get down by the years.


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## nina foresti

This thread is all about favorite CD's and DVD's and not favorite Live recordings or live productions, correct?


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## Granate

nina foresti said:


> This thread is all about favorite CD's and DVD's and not favorite Live recordings or live productions, correct?


It's a good question, but I would inlude anything that has been marketed on CD or DVD. Maybe you mean about Live productions that we have attended. If there isn't anything taped on that that is DVD, Bluray or even video on demand and streamable, it shouldn't count.

Probably I should be more specific on that.










For example, I'm going to give either 4 or 5 points to this rarity. It is a live performance, but it has been released on CD and can be listened nowadays by anyone willing to pay the price or just stream by Spotify, Youtube or Tidal if it were.


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## The Conte

I think it should be anything that has been released _commercially_ on CD or DVD. I know there are some niche 'private' labels with a huge variety of live recordings available on CD-R for online order, but none of my top six choices of any opera would include any of those. Assuming others agree, of course.

N.


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## SixFootScowl

Granate said:


> ^^
> 
> If you mean the results of the Recording poll, I'll try to look myself or talk with the mods for a shared image account that holds all the covers of the recordings, uploaded by me. That way they shouldn't get down by the years.


Ah, good point. Rather than linking in the voting thread, we would only like pictures in the results thread. There it would be a good thing to include images in the posts. Often I visit those old results threads to see what is listed before buying a recording. It is nice to see images and not just text.


----------



## SixFootScowl

The Conte said:


> I think it should be anything that has been released _commercially_ on CD or DVD. I know there are some niche 'private' labels with a huge variety of live recordings available on CD-R for online order, but none of my top six choices of any opera would include any of those. Assuming others agree, of course.
> 
> N.


I like the idea of restricting it to commercial recordings. I guess they can be out of print, as long as some are on the used market. I have gotten some of the niche 'private' label recordings, but typically don't keep them in my regular listening rotations.


----------



## Granate

SixFootScowl said:


> I like the idea of restricting it to commercial recordings. I guess they can be out of print, as long as some are on the used market. I have gotten some of the niche 'private' label recordings, but typically don't keep them in my regular listening rotations.


I would say it's quite the opposite for me, keeping the stereo to have a good picture of the orchestral colour and detail, but often coming to the mono live recordings that present the work in a "natural" and often very dramatic portrait for me. Where do the Callas Live recordings stand in here?

Two examples: the Cologne Live Bellini Sonnambula with Maria Callas won the previous poll, and I often remember Pugg saying that he would not listen to any other Wagner Lohengrin than the Keilberth Bayreuth 1953 (even though it was also a commercial recording).


----------



## The Conte

Granate said:


> I would say it's quite the opposite for me, keeping the stereo to have a good picture of the orchestral colour and detail, but often coming to the mono live recordings that present the work in a "natural" and often very dramatic portrait for me. Where do the Callas Live recordings stand in here?
> 
> Two examples: the Cologne Live Bellini Sonnambula with Maria Callas won the previous poll, and I often remember Pugg saying that he would not listen to any other Wagner Lohengrin than the Keilberth Bayreuth 1953 (even though it was also a commercial recording).


Sorry Granate, the Maria Callas live recordings have all been issued commercially on pressed discs. What I mean by 'private' labels are the likes of Premiere opera or Opera Depot that release recordings on CD-R or similar (as well as download, of course). Andromeda, Myto and other small firms that release pressed CDs I count as commercial, so your Andromeda Forza would qualify.

N.


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## nina foresti

David Poleri -- a name from the past. How terrible that this handsome young tenor with a spectacular spinto voice had his life tragically cut short when his plane hit a mountain.


----------



## Granate

nina foresti said:


> David Poleri -- a name from the past. How terrible that this handsome young tenor with a spectacular spinto voice had his life tragically cut short when his plane hit a mountain.


That explains something. I think Walburga Wegner had some bad fame after other live performances in the 50s, but I wondered why didn't Poleri go further.

If Conte is right, then I didn't get the point of the SixFootScowl post, so anything that has been released on cd would count (for example that Davis Philips _Troyens_ that is still unissued after a very long time).


----------



## SixFootScowl

The Conte said:


> What I mean by 'private' labels are the likes of Premiere opera or Opera Depot that release recordings on CD-R or similar (as well as download, of course). Andromeda, Myto and other small firms that release pressed CDs I count as commercial, so your Andromeda Forza would qualify.
> 
> N.


The above is exactly what I was thinking when I made *my post.*


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## howlingfantods

I dunno, Operadepot seems like fair game--we certainly spend enough time talking about them. There are a couple of operas where I'd pick Operadepot recordings first, and those recordings are even more easily accessible for people reading the recommendations than some of the rarer out of print stuff I may also be recommending.


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## SixFootScowl

howlingfantods said:


> I dunno, Operadepot seems like fair game--we certainly spend enough time talking about them. There are a couple of operas where I'd pick Operadepot recordings first, and those recordings are even more easily accessible for people reading the recommendations than some of the rarer out of print stuff I may also be recommending.


I am fine with it. I don't want to rock any boats. The main thing is we do the voting and make a final list. There could be some great recordings in the Operadepot et.al. category, and it may be especially useful where there are precious few commercial recordings of a work available.


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## The Conte

This seems to have fallen under the radar. When are we going to start voting for our favourite recording of each of the top operas we voted on earlier this year?

N.


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## SixFootScowl

I can hardly wait, but wait I must for this and for a lot of normal societal activities. Oh well. Patience is a virtue they say.


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## The Conte

SixFootScowl said:


> I can hardly wait, but wait I must for this and for a lot of normal societal activities. Oh well. Patience is a virtue they say.


Why can't we do this whilst there is a lock down on?

N.


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## Granate

I've been getting busy with many things outside of this, especially my instagram. Also work. It's my fault. I've compromised myself to too many things. I need to find out the time to create the thread and let the voting begin. That means to put another schedule on myself since I'm designing templates to recommend a music album every day. Not to mention to start a new fitness life with a jump rope and make a change in my life.


----------



## Granate

*Commence?*

Hello Guys

I'm now trying to space out from things related to design and video. I'm not in an opera mood at all. A friend has even told me off about my compulsive buying of music. But probably it is time to start developing the Recordings Poll based on the Top 150 list. Because of being busy, I won't really count the results in a post inmediately but I must make sure all the votes are correct.

Tomorrow I'll put myself to create the excel files for counting the votes, plus my own list of votes based on my notes and writing the opening post and instructions for the poll.

Will you join me? First week should be dedicated to the Ring. 2 days for the Entire ring, and 2 days for each opera from it. Is it right? I need to check the conclusions we reached again haha.

*Starting next monday.*

Sorry, family is safe but I've had better times myself.


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## SixFootScowl

The Conte said:


> Why can't we do this whilst there is a lock down on?
> 
> N.


We can. It's up to the Granate. I know about being busy. I am working full-time at home and don't have time for much fun now, and it seems like even less time than I had before.


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## Granate

Ok. I made my voting list for Operas 1-20. It's been demanding.

The List of rules for the thread is also written down based on the discussion that happened here. Instead of 5 days for the ring and 2 for each Ring Opera, we should do 5 days for the 4 Ring Operas and 2 days for the Ring.

Is it better?


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## The Conte

Granate said:


> Ok. I made my voting list for Operas 1-20. It's been demanding.
> 
> The List of rules for the thread is also written down based on the discussion that happened here. Instead of 5 days for the ring and 2 for each Ring Opera, we should do 5 days for the 4 Ring Operas and 2 days for the Ring.
> 
> Is it better?


I don't mind, just make sure that the rules are clearly laid out in the first post for the poll. (As you have done before.)

N.


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## Granate

Visit this thread to start:

*Positions 1-10 Recordings Poll*


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## The Conte

We haven't had many votes for individual Ring operas, are much longer is the poll open, anymore takers?

N.


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## Granate

You guys are going to make me buy the Blue box edition of the Keilberth Bayreuth 1953 Ring! I had on eye the 1958 Siegfried and the 1957 Rheingold...


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## Tsaraslondon

I'm not voting because I haven't heard enough performances of the entire cycle to make it fair. I'm tempted by Keilberth now, only I've found three different cycles on Presto Music. 1952 on Dcouments, 1953 on Pan Classics and (much more expensive) 1955 in stereo on Testament. Which one is best as a cycle or is it better to mix and match?


----------



## annaw

Tsaraslondon said:


> I'm not voting because I haven't heard enough performances of the entire cycle to make it fair. I'm tempted by Keilberth now, only I've found three different cycles on Presto Music. 1952 on Dcouments, 1953 on Pan Classics and (much more expensive) 1955 in stereo on Testament. Which one is best as a cycle or is it better to mix and match?


I bought myself the 1953 because it's significantly cheaper than the 1955 but still with a very good sound quality. I really like its cast: a relatively young Hotter who's my favourite Wotan (and one of my favourite singers), Windgassen as Siegfried, Uhde as Gunther and I'm rather fond of Vinay/Resnik dark-voiced Wälsung pair. I cannot comment on the 1952 and 1955 recordings but I'm sure many others can .


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## The Conte

Tsaraslondon said:


> I'm not voting because I haven't heard enough performances of the entire cycle to make it fair. I'm tempted by Keilberth now, only I've found three different cycles on Presto Music. 1952 on Dcouments, 1953 on Pan Classics and (much more expensive) 1955 in stereo on Testament. Which one is best as a cycle or is it better to mix and match?


I don't know the 1952 Keilberth cycle, so can't comment on that one. I would say it depends on whether you prefer Varnay or Modl as Brunhilde. If you like Varnay then it's the 1955 one you want, if Modl then you can either get the 53 on Pan (blue cover) or get the 55 separates with the Walkure and Gotterdamerung from the second cycle with Modl. I think the 53 is a better all round performance (I prefer Malaniuk's Fricka over Von Milinkovic for example), however the 55 has better sound.

N.


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## Granate

Tsaraslondon said:


> I'm not voting because I haven't heard enough performances of the entire cycle to make it fair. I'm tempted by Keilberth now, only I've found three different cycles on Presto Music. 1952 on Dcouments, 1953 on Pan Classics and (much more expensive) 1955 in stereo on Testament. Which one is best as a cycle or is it better to mix and match?


Rating the 1950s Bayreuth Rings (first Production from Wieland Wagner) is often really hard. I did it and I still don't know which one should be considered a winner. Because they are very different from one another, and especially almost none has an ideal cast. Krauss 1953 and Keilberth 1953 should be considered the safest choices because of the quality of all performers, in their prime, saving the Brunnhildes, because both of them share equal rates of love and hate here. I love Mödl and she is especially commited in the Keilberth 1953, but others can't stand her and it's understandable. And I included, often havd a hard time admiring Astrid Varnay's tone. She's really good in both Keilberth 1952 and Krauss 1953, more erratic in the Knappertsbusch Rings later. And then, the Furtwängler RAI ring still suffers from very poor SQ.

Out of the 1952, I would really recommend the Götterdämmerung, since you mix Varnay as Brunnhilde and Mödl as Gutrune.

1955 is tough. I listened it along the true stereo recordings and it had a very hard time in comparison. I love the conducting and the way Hotter sings but Varnay in her very prime and in her best SQ had nothing to do against the best Nilssons or Altmeyer or the other Brunnhildes from Barenboim or Haitink, or Dernesch... It's as I say, a unique voice.

If you really got the 1955, it should be so you don't buy a single 1950s recording at all.

If you have the money and you like Mödl's Brunnhilde, get yourself the Pan Classics 1953 Keilberth Ring. Myto sells good spares of the 1952 ring.


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## The Conte

Granate said:


> 1955 is tough. I listened it along the true stereo recordings and it had a very hard time in comparison. I love the conducting and the way Hotter sings but Varnay in her very prime and in her best SQ had nothing to do against the best Nilssons or Altmeyer or the other Brunnhildes from Barenboim or Haitink, or Dernesch... It's as I say, a unique voice.


It's true that the stereo is primitive and in some respects I prefer the very clean sound on the 1957 and 58 mono cycles, however it is better than on Keilberth 53. Have you heard the second cycle Walkure and Gotterdamerung from 55?

N.


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## Granate

The Conte said:


> Have you heard the second cycle Walkure and Gotterdamerung from 55?


You know I love Mödl, but I haven't found those performances on Youtube.

I'm thinking about giving a second chance to the 1952 Götterdämmerung. And I've seen that the Bayreuth company apparently ran short on cast for that year. Uhde played the Rheingold Wotan and this Götter's Gunther. Mödl here plays the First norn and also Gutrune. And Ruth Siewert plays the Third norn and Waltraute too. And I could go on with all the performers who do another character in different operas that year.


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## Tsaraslondon

The Conte said:


> I don't know the 1952 Keilberth cycle, so can't comment on that one. I would say it depends on whether you prefer Varnay or Modl as Brunhilde. If you like Varnay then it's the 1955 one you want, if Modl then you can either get the 53 on Pan (blue cover) or get the 55 separates with the Walkure and Gotterdamerung from the second cycle with Modl. I think the 53 is a better all round performance (I prefer Malaniuk's Fricka over Von Milinkovic for example), however the 55 has better sound.
> 
> N.


I have the Karajan Ring and I actually really like it. I also really like Dernesch's Brünnhilde. I've heard the Solti (or most of it anyway) and I didn't like his way with the score. Somebody once referred to it as his "orgasm in every bar" approach and I know what they mean. I also don't much like the sound of Nilsson's voice, as recorded anyway, so that's another problem for me. Given my preferences, what would you suggest?

I'm admittiing here that I'm nowhere near as well up on Wagner's operas as I am on Italian and French opera. I've actually listened to far more different recordings of _Les Troyens_!


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## Granate

Tsaraslondon said:


> I'm admittiing here that I'm nowhere near as well up on Wagner's operas as I am on Italian and French opera. I've actually listened to far more different recordings of _Les Troyens_!


You will need to dig deep in mono territory if you want different but amazing Brunnhildes outside Birgit Nilsson. But in Stereo, the Boulez 1976 Ring is an outstanding document of conducting and singing. Operadepot still sells it on mp3 for $26 until the sale ends.

If you prefer to stay in stereo, the Karajan ring may be the one you "coo" in. It's controversial but amazing. I don't own it because I already own lots of Rings I love in stereo and mono.

Digging in Bayreuth 1950s rings will be very tedious although the singers and the SQ sometimes sound better than the Maria Callas studio recordings. I skipped the 1951 performances and started with 1952 (light sound, distant singers) Krauss 1953 (studio-like sound, fast conducting, impressive singers) Keilberth 1953 (same sound, balanced conducting, Martha Mödl in better condition than with Furtwängler), Furtwängler 1953 (poor sound quality, the most fascinating and cohesive conducting followed by Knappertsbusch), then the Knappertsbusch Rings 56-58, which we always seem to disagree over (I dislike pretty much of Varnay's 58 Brunnhilde and in 1957 she's much finer, SQ much better in 1958, 1957 best combination sound-conducting-singing in my opinion). From 1960 the Nilsson queendom begins.


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## Tsaraslondon

Granate said:


> You will need to dig deep in mono territory if you want different but amazing Brunnhildes outside Birgit Nilsson. But in Stereo, the Boulez 1976 Ring is an outstanding document of conducting and singing. Operadepot still sells it on mp3 for $26 until the sale ends.
> 
> If you prefer to stay in stereo, the Karajan ring may be the one you "coo" in. It's controversial but amazing. I don't own it because I already own lots of Rings I love in stereo and mono.
> 
> Digging in Bayreuth 1950s rings will be very tedious although the singers and the SQ sometimes sound better than the Maria Callas studio recordings. I skipped the 1951 performances and started with 1952 (light sound, distant singers) Krauss 1953 (studio-like sound, fast conducting, impressive singers) Keilberth 1953 (same sound, balanced conducting, Martha Mödl in better condition than with Furtwängler), Furtwängler 1953 (poor sound quality, the most fascinating and cohesive conducting followed by Knappertsbusch), then the Knappertsbusch Rings 56-58, which we always seem to disagree over (I dislike pretty much of Varnay's 58 Brunnhilde and in 1957 she's much finer, SQ much better in 1958, 1957 best combination sound-conducting-singing in my opinion). From 1960 the Nilsson queendom begins.


Well, as I said, I already have the Karajan. I remember seeing the Boulez/Chéreau when it was on TV here. That was in the days when the BBC still had a commitment to arts and opera. I really liked it, both the production, which was very controversial at the time, and the performances. Gwyneth Jones' voice might be an acquired taste but dramatically she was riveting.

Edited to add that I now remember I've also seen quite a lot of the Barenboim Ring on DVD, and I rather liked it. Maybe I am qualified to vote after all.


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## VitellioScarpia

Granate said:


> If you prefer to stay in stereo, the Karajan ring may be the one you "coo" in. It's controversial but amazing. I don't own it because I already own lots of Rings I love in stereo and mono.


Granate, you need the Karajan copy. Don't resist it! I read somewhere that the best way to deal with temptation is to yield to it! :devil:

Get the Blu-ray edition, it is absolutely a magnificent transcription...


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## howlingfantods

Tsaraslondon said:


> I have the Karajan Ring and I actually really like it. I also really like Dernesch's Brünnhilde. I've heard the Solti (or most of it anyway) and I didn't like his way with the score. Somebody once referred to it as his "orgasm in every bar" approach and I know what they mean. I also don't much like the sound of Nilsson's voice, as recorded anyway, so that's another problem for me. Given my preferences, what would you suggest?


Given your preferences, I'd recommend the Barenboim/Bayreuth. Lighter, prettier voices than many other recordings, fairly well sung throughout--I think a bit more consistently well-sung than Karajan's, although Karajan has better performers in a couple of roles. The first Janowski and the early 90s live Sawallisch might work for you too, but of those three cycles, I think the Barenboim is the most consistently good.


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## Tsaraslondon

Bumping this thread to remind people they can discuss the operas here. I'm sure Granate would prefer it if we stuck to just voting for our favourites in the actual thread and leave discussion and comment for here.

We're on *Tosca* at the moment. Will anyone challenge the De Sabata hegemony? I suppose everyone would expect me to choose it because of Callas, but actually what impresses me every time is De Sabata's conducting, which I think has never been equalled, even by Karajan, who admired it himself actually. His sense of rubato is just amazing. I'm always astonished by what he does with the long intro to Act III. The control he exerts over his forces is quite mind blowing.


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## Tsaraslondon

So we move on to nos 11-20 with La Traviata.

I'm willing to bet Callas gets the most votes. Unfortunately they are likely to be spread over at least three different recordings:-
La Scala 55
Lisbon 58
Covent Garden 58

I wouldn't want to be without any of them, but I've given all 6 of my votes to Covent Garden, because it sees to me that Callas has delved into the role more deeply than ever before and here has excellent support from the rest of the cast. Yes, she is in frailer voice than she was at La Scala in 1955 (she was reportedly suffering from a cold), but that is not inapt for the role of Violetta. It's also in better sound than the other two.

I reviewed it on my blog a couple of years back https://tsaraslondon.wordpress.com/2017/07/17/callass-covent-garden-traviata/


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## SixFootScowl

Regarding lack of votes on the favorites poll *as noted in this post*, i confess that I too feel unqualified to post favorites for many of these, but I think we are in the process ruining the fun. This is not meant to be a robust poll, just a fun poll to find out TC favorites, whether they are based on someone hearing and analyzing every recording of a particular opera or not. In my case I may have favorites for all the wrong reasons--just because. I held off on Lohengren for that reason, but I guess from here forward I am going to start posting for any opera I have at least one recording of and to which I enjoy listening.


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## annaw

SixFootScowl said:


> Regarding lack of votes on the favorites poll *as noted in this post*, i confess that I too feel unqualified to post favorites for many of these, but I think we are in the process ruining the fun. This is not meant to be a robust poll, just a fun poll to find out TC favorites, whether they are based on someone hearing and analyzing every recording of a particular opera or not. In my case I may have favorites for all the wrong reasons--just because. I held off on Lohengren for that reason, but I guess from here forward I am going to start posting for any opera I have at least one recording of and to which I enjoy listening.


I plan to join with this rebellious act  !


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## Granate

Azol said:


> The overall level of interest in these polls seems very low. The consistency of the results are going to questionable at best. I do not see these replacing previous ones that clearly represent recorded opera preferences of much wider audience.





The Conte said:


> Nobody has said they should replace the previous polls. I'm a huge fan of "obstruct the vote" when one is dealing with corrupt systems, but this isn't a corrupt system.
> 
> N.


I've been thinking about this for a long time, even when some years ago some members were really interested in doing this new poll but for some reason they vanished. This month I've been taking this participation rate as something personal. But on one side I did't see too scarce to count six votes in an opera and on the other side, I was focusing my life more on meeting friends in my city and hanging out, live the life of a 25 yo and just log in here to ask about Haydn symphony recordings and other stuff that I'm not sure about and look for advice. Because you have lots of knowledge. I myself I'm not one to share that knowledge I have about opera recordings, especially doing the effort of designing and writing articles in the fashion of Josquin13. I'm just doing this poll now for the few that do want to share their recommendations on opera recordings.

One thing that bugged me: even if I've read lots of Traviata reviews here, how come the Rescigno Covent Garden Performance receives so much praise by some of you? I listened to it and I liked it more than I expected, but I thought you were going to side either with La Scala or Lisbon.


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## annaw

Granate said:


> I've been thinking about this for a long time, even when some years ago some members were really interested in doing this new poll but for some reason they vanished. This month I've been taking this participation rate as something personal. But on one side I did't see too scarce to count six votes in an opera and on the other side, I was focusing my life more on meeting friends in my city and hanging out, live the life of a 25 yo and just log in here to ask about Haydn symphony recordings and other stuff that I'm not sure about and look for advice. Because you have lots of knowledge. I myself I'm not one to share that knowledge I have about opera recordings, especially doing the effort of designing and writing articles in the fashion of Josquin13. I'm just doing this poll now for the few that do want to share their recommendations on opera recordings.
> 
> One thing that bugged me: even if I've read lots of Traviata reviews here, how come the Rescigno Covent Garden Performance receives so much praise by some of you? I listened to it and I liked it more than I expected, but I thought you were going to side either with La Scala or Lisbon.


Granate, I think it's a great work you're doing! I'm frustrated myself that I feel my recommendation, due to my lack of experience, would not be trustworthy but I can say that when I got into opera 2 or so years ago, the previous TC poll helped me a lot! If I wanted to know more thorough opinions I just checked the respective thread of that specific opera. The thing is that people who are new to opera don't even know recordings which seem very mainstream for more experienced listeners. These famous recordings come through even if a few people are voting.


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## Andante Cantabile

Granate said:


> One thing that bugged me: even if I've read lots of Traviata reviews here, how come the Rescigno Covent Garden Performance receives so much praise by some of you? I listened to it and I liked it more than I expected, but I thought you were going to side either with La Scala or Lisbon.


The answer to your question has already been given by Tsaraslondon in post #226, which is also exactly my thoughts on the Rescigno Covent Garden performance.


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## Bulldog

Granate said:


> I've been thinking about this for a long time, even when some years ago some members were really interested in doing this new poll but for some reason they vanished. This month I've been taking this participation rate as something personal.


I've found that the more specialized games and projects have lower participation rates. On its own, opera is a specialized theme; throw in recordings as well, and it's highly specialized. For this particular project, only a strong opera enthusiast could possibly do a good job of voting; those who simply enjoy listening to an opera now and then can't possibly participate with confidence.


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## nina foresti

I feel so out of my league when it comes to listing all the important facts of a CD or DVD that I am embarrassed to participate.
So I am going to make a fool of myself but will list my favorite CD's and DVD's without much information:

Mefistofele DVD (Pirate): (Newark Opera, 1965??) Olivero/Hines
Don Carlo CD Live 1970: Corelli/Verrett/Gruberova/Ghiaurov/Talvela
Tosca CD: Callas/DiStefano/Gobbi
Madama Butterfly CD: Scotto/Bergonzi/Panerai
Adriana Lecouvreur CD: Olivero/Corelli/Simionato/Bastianini
La Boheme CD: Shicoff/Cotrubas
Eugene Onegin: CD: Hvorostovsky/Shicoff/Focile
Eugene Onegin DVD: Hvorostovsky/Fleming/Vargas
Carmen DVD: Alagna/Garanca
Otello DVD: Vickers/Scotto
Dialogues des Carmelites DVD: Ewing/Crespin/Norman
La fanciulla del west DVD 1970: Tebaldi/Konya/Colzani
Tosca DVD: Verrett/Pavarotti


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## howlingfantods

i'm finding myself disinterested because we're not allowed to explain or discuss. i'm not really interested in which records people vote for; i'm interested in hearing why. simply seeing a recording listed with a point value attached feels like a pretty sterile exercise.

a lesser but also annoying factor is not being allowed to vote for recordings from operadepot, operapassion and the like. seems arbitrary and strange that we can vote for recordings from myto or walhall or whatever but we're not allowed to vote for these others, especially when some of these other recordings are actually much more difficult to find.


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## Tsaraslondon

I have tried to instigate the odd discussion in this thread, but either nobody's very interested, or people aren't seeing the posts. I think it's probably right to keep the voting thread to just votes, otherwise it gets difficult to collate the data. This thread is the place to come for discussion so why is nobody using it?


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## annaw

howlingfantods said:


> i'm finding myself disinterested because we're not allowed to explain or discuss. i'm not really interested in which records people vote for;* i'm interested in hearing why*. simply seeing a recording listed with a point value attached feels like a pretty sterile exercise.
> 
> a lesser but also annoying factor is not being allowed to vote for recordings from operadepot, operapassion and the like. seems arbitrary and strange that we can vote for recordings from myto or walhall or whatever but we're not allowed to vote for these others, especially when some of these other recordings are actually much more difficult to find.


Yes! It would be super interesting to hear why people vote for the recordings they do!


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## howlingfantods

well, i guess i'll start to participate again, and comment what i want to comment, and vote for what i want to vote for. if that bums people out, i can stop again.


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## Granate

Thank you.

So you guys know about Pelléas et Mélisande? It was unknown to me, but when I discovered it in summer 2018 I thought it deserved that place among the best operas of the 2015 Poll.

I would often swing between the stereo feel of the Boulez Covent Garden recording or the All-Star cast of the Metropolitan 1960 performance. But since the Boulez is oop, I got myself the Jean Morel CD and it's now at home waiting for me.


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## howlingfantods

howlingfantods said:


> well, i guess i'll start to participate again, and comment what i want to comment, and vote for what i want to vote for. if that bums people out, i can stop again.


incidentally, in case people are curious what I would have voted for had i not skipped the last few:

Traviata would have been a split between the 1951 Callas/Valletti/Taddei/Di Fabritiis (awful sound, but what a performance and what a cast!) and the Solti (I like to keep some Gheorghiu in the mix, I like her too much to never listen to her, and her Traviata CD/Video and Tosca Video are probably her two best);

Don Carlo would have been the 1975 Salzburg with Domingo/Freni/Cappuccilli/Ludwig/Karajan on operadepot,

Hollander would have been mostly Solti (I like Bailey's dutchman more and more, and the rest of the cast is at least decent, a real rarity for this opera, and Solti's conducting isn't too bad) with maybe a point or two for Sinopoli (would be easily the greatest recording with a great supporting cast and my favorite conducting of this opera, if only Weikl wasn't such a weak Hollander). Sawallisch video.

Lohengrin would have been the Von Matacic and the Kubelik for audio, and the Abbado video with Domingo and Studer.


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## annaw

Granate said:


> Thank you.
> 
> So you guys know about Pelléas et Mélisande? It was unknown to me, but when I discovered it in summer 2018 I thought it deserved that place among the best operas of the 2015 Poll.
> 
> I would often swing between the stereo feel of the Boulez Covent Garden recording or the All-Star cast of the Metropolitan 1960 performance. But since the Boulez is oop, I got myself the Jean Morel CD and it's now at home waiting for me.


I discovered it about a year ago and it's a wonderful opera but I think I've heard only couple of recordings. I recall liking the Boulez as well though! I should get better acquainted with the opera, it's wonderful what a bad job Debussy did with trying to avoid Wagner's influences :lol:.


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## Tsaraslondon

Granate said:


> Thank you.
> 
> So you guys know about Pelléas et Mélisande? It was unknown to me, but when I discovered it in summer 2018 I thought it deserved that place among the best operas of the 2015 Poll.
> 
> I would often swing between the stereo feel of the Boulez Covent Garden recording or the All-Star cast of the Metropolitan 1960 performance. But since the Boulez is oop, I got myself the Jean Morel CD and it's now at home waiting for me.


When I first started collecting CDs, a friend of mine gave me a sort of starter pack from his own collection. His favourite opera was *Pelléas et Mélisande*. I think he bought every recording that ever came out. The Boulez was an early Japanese issue, (complete with Japanese libretto) which is where most CDs were coming from when the technology was new. He told me that it was the only recording he could bear to part with and that I would probably want to buy another, as others became available.

I found that, though it is excellently cast, the recording lacks atmosphere, a pervading chill hanging over the whole performance. I feel the same about most of Boulez's Debussy from this period. It's as if he has taken apart the nuts and bolts of the score and laid them out for admiring display, but, in so doing, has somehow removed its beating heart.


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## The Conte

Pelléas et Mélisande is my least favourite opera of the regular repertoire and I don't have a recording, so no vote from me.

N.


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## annaw

Meanwhile I realised I haven't listened to a single _Turandot_ which is very shameful but can I blame Wagner and his over 4 hour long operas for that crime :lol: ?


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## Tsaraslondon

Granate said:


> One thing that bugged me: even if I've read lots of Traviata reviews here, how come the Rescigno Covent Garden Performance receives so much praise by some of you? I listened to it and I liked it more than I expected, but I thought you were going to side either with La Scala or Lisbon.


I touched on my reasons in post #226, but let me lay out in more detail why so many of us continue to prefer Callas's Covent Garden performance to the others.

Violetta entered Callas's repertoire in 1951, when she was still a rather large lady, and it was the role she sang more than any other after Norma. It fast became a favourite role and that year alone she sang it in Florence, Cagliari. Mexico City, Sao Paulo, Rio de Janeiro, Begamo and Parma. According to Gobbi, who sang Germont in Sao Paulo with her, vocally it was a tour de force at that time, as can be heard from the recording of one of the Mexico performances. Gobbi has described that in his whole life he had never heard the coloratura sung with such corruscating brilliance and power. However, it wasn't yet the whole role, and, more than any other role, Violetta is the one which she constantly strove to refine to essentials.

The La Scala performances of 1955, and the collaboration with Visconti and Giuini, were the first major steps on this journey. The performances were meticulously prepared and the three of them would discuss details of interpretation for hours on end, much to the annoyance of Di Stefano, who was more used to turning up, told where to stand when and then give his usual performance. In fact, he ended up walking out in frustration after the opening night. There is no doubt the recording captures a great night in the theatre. The production itself was stunningly beautiful and the slimmed down Callas, looking fabulous in the gowns designed for her scored a triumph, though some members were scandalised by certain realistic details, such as Callas slowly undoing her hair whilst sitting by the fire as she sang _Ah fors' e lui_ and kicking off her shoes as she sang _Sempre libera_. Yes I know, that all seems pretty tame now, but people weren't so used to such naturalistic acting in opera in those days. Vocally, though the voice has thinned out a little since the 1951 Mexico performance, she is still in fine form. However I don't think she has yet probed as deeply into the role as she later would in Lisbon and London. Di Stefano, for all his objections in rehearsal, is a fine Alfredo, but Bastianini is disappointingly four square and monochromatic. A fine Verdian voice, yes, but there is no sense of give and take with Callas in the long Act II duet. It is remarkable that Callas makes as much effect as she does, given that there is absolutely nothing coming back from her partner. The recordng, though much improved in its Ars Vocalis representation, crumbles in places.

Lisbon and London are similar in many ways, spearated only by months. They are both fine performances, but I just feel that the London performance was one of those performances where everything came together, that indefinable something that turns a good performance into a great one. It takes you out of the opera house and turns what is after all a most artificial art form into something palpably real. As Violetta takes her last breath, you forget this is opera. It becomes real life. Rescigno is inspired to outdo himself and I prefer his way with the score to Ghione, who can be a bit four square. Zanasi is a more interesting and sympathetic Germont than Sereni, good though he is, and Valletti at least the equal of Kraus, which is high praise indeed. Callas was reportedly suffering from a cold and is not in her best voice. No matter, I think she achieves here a greater distillation of the drama than in any of her other recorded performances. Furthermore there is absolutely nothing studied about it. You feel that she is experiencing the music as it happens. There is a link to my review of the Covent Garden performance in post #226, which sets out in detail why I find this performance so satisfying.


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## Tsaraslondon

Oh dear! It looks as though there is little enthusiasm for the voting this time. Only three people voted in the *Pelléas* round. I'm sorry, Granate, this must be very disheartening to you as compiling the lists must have been quite a lot of work. This year's poll is hardly going to be representative though, I'm afraid.


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## annaw

Tsaraslondon said:


> Oh dear! It looks as though there is little enthusiasm for the voting this time. Only three people voted in the *Pelléas* round. I'm sorry, Granate, this must be very disheartening to you as compiling the lists must have been quite a lot of work. This year's poll is hardly going to be representative though, I'm afraid.


I wonder, is it because the TC's opera "community" has become smaller or is it just that people are not voting? Of course these two things can both be contributors to somewhat smaller participation rate compared to the previous poll.


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## SixFootScowl

Tsaraslondon said:


> Oh dear! It looks as though there is little enthusiasm for the voting this time. Only three people voted in the *Pelléas* round. I'm sorry, Granate, this must be very disheartening to you as compiling the lists must have been quite a lot of work. This year's poll is hardly going to be representative though, I'm afraid.


I don't know this opera, and believe that I once looked at the synopsis (maybe even listened to some sound clips) and did not feel interested in pursuing it.


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## howlingfantods

P&M isn't that popular, and not a lot of people know more than one or two recordings, so the lack of responses isn't that surprising to me. as long as people get a couple of different options, i think that's got some value.

it is a really really great opera though. i fell in love with it just a few years ago, when i got the Gui 1963 recording. it had never really clicked for me when listening to the Cluytens and the Karajan but it clicked for me in a big way with the Gui. I remember I stuck it in my iphone before i went on a vacation with my wife, and i ended up listening to it multiple times a day during that entire vacation, i couldn't stop listening to it.


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## SixFootScowl

howlingfantods said:


> P&M isn't that popular, and not a lot of people know more than one or two recordings, so the lack of responses isn't that surprising to me. as long as people get a couple of different options, i think that's got some value.
> 
> it is a really really great opera though. i fell in love with it just a few years ago, when i got the Gui 1963 recording. it had never really clicked for me when listening to the Cluytens and the Karajan but it clicked for me in a big way with the Gui. I remember I stuck it in my iphone before i went on a vacation with my wife, and i ended up listening to it multiple times a day during that entire vacation, i couldn't stop listening to it.


Now I feel like I have to give it another chance.


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## annaw

Thoughts on _Turandot_ recordings? I've been eyeing the Björling/Nilsson recording as I love Nilsson and Brjörling's voice was just a miracle but I'd be interested to hear the views of more experienced listeners.


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## howlingfantods

annaw said:


> Thoughts on _Turandot_ recordings? I've been eyeing the Björling/Nilsson recording as I love Nilsson and Brjörling's voice was just a miracle but I'd be interested to hear the views of more experienced listeners.


For me, Bjorling >>> all other italianate tenors of the modern recording era. He left relatively few full opera recordings with casts that are entirely to my tastes though, so the few that are are especially valuable to me; this Turandot is among those few, along with his Cav with Tebaldi and the Boheme and the Pag with VDLA.


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## annaw

howlingfantods said:


> For me, Bjorling >>> all other italianate tenors of the modern recording era. He left relatively few full opera recordings with casts that are entirely to my tastes though, so the few that are are especially valuable to me; this Turandot is among those few, along with his Cav with Tebaldi and the Boheme and the Pag with VDLA.


Thanks! I'll check these out and I share your love towards Björling! I adore his voice and that silver trumpet-ish sound - who could surpass him (at least in the modern recording era)!


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## VitellioScarpia

annaw said:


> Thoughts on _Turandot_ recordings? I've been eyeing the Björling/Nilsson recording as I love Nilsson and Brjörling's voice was just a miracle but I'd be interested to hear the views of more experienced listeners.


However much I love Björling, Calaf was not a role that he could have sung on stage. My preferred Calaf is actually Corelli, lisp notwithstanding, because he sounds like a real hero. I also think that Nilsson is more convincing in her second outing and Scotto tilts the weight for the 1966 recording. I think that that Sutherland-Pavarotti-Caballé confection succeeds because of the beauty of the singing and Sutherland's surprising veracity in portraying the unforgiving role. Best of all, I find the conducting by Mehta and the spectacular sound provided by Decca a big advantage. So, my recommendations Annaw are: (1) Nilsson-Corelli-Scotto-MolinariPradelli for a theatrical experience, and (2) Sutherland-Pavarotti-Caballé-Mehta for a stupendous recording. I am partial to Callas' recording despite all its flaws because of her humanizing of Turandot.

Another recording I find quite good is the overlooked Borkh-Del Monaco-Tebaldi-Erede on Decca. Erede rose to the occasion and provides a good orchestral performance, Borkh is a warmer sound than Nilsson, Del Monaco very much into the role with a fantastic instrument and no excesses, and Tebaldi beats her later outing as Liu. The sound in the restored Golden Age Blu-ray is demonstration quality in spite of having been recorded in 1955.


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## VitellioScarpia

Tsaraslondon said:


> I have tried to instigate the odd discussion in this thread, but either nobody's very interested, or people aren't seeing the posts. I think it's probably right to keep the voting thread to just votes, otherwise it gets difficult to collate the data. This thread is the place to come for discussion so why is nobody using it?


I have been careful with giving my opinions as there are some members who latch onto their point of view for dear life one's thoughts differ from theirs, and it degrades into being dismissed with a _holier than thou_ attitude, or accused of being stupid. This should be a place where we share our love for music and opera. I do not take lightly to have to either explain what "qualifies" me for an opinion, or being attacked for not sharing a view. It is fun to have different opinions because I learn from the views of others however much may I disagree with their choices. Some of us need to lighten up.


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## annaw

VitellioScarpia said:


> However much I love Björling, Calaf was not a role that he could have sung on stage. My preferred Calaf is actually Corelli, lisp notwithstanding, because he sounds like real hero. I also think that Nilsson is more convincing in her second outing and Scotto tilts the weight for the 1966 recording. I think that that Sutherland-Pavarotti-Caballé confection succeeds because of the beauty of the singing and Sutherland's surprising veracity in portraying the unforgiving role. Best of all, I find the conducting by Mehta and the spectacular sound provided by Decca. So, my recommendations Annaw are: (1) Nilsson-Corelli-Scotto-MolinariPradelli for a theatrical experience, and (2) Sutherland-Pavarotti-Caballé-Mehta for a stupendous recording. I am partial to Callas' recording despite all its flaws because of her humanizing of Turandot.
> 
> Another recording I find quite good is the overlooked Borkh-Del Monaco-Tebaldi-Erede on Decca. Erede rose to the occasion and provides a good orchestral performance, Borkh is a warmer sound than Nilsson, Del Monaco very much into the role with a fantastic instrument and no excesses, and Tebaldi beats her later outing as Liu. The sound in the restored Golden Age Blu-ray is demonstration quality in spite of having been recorded in 1955.


Thanks for insightful recommendations! I'll try to listen to all these + Björling/Nilsson and then see what I think  !


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## VitellioScarpia

SixFootScowl said:


> Now I feel like I have to give it another chance.


I recommend the DGG recording conducted by Abbado with Ewing, Le Roux, Courtis, Ludwig and the VPO. I really like Ewing and it is Abbado at his best.


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## howlingfantods

VitellioScarpia said:


> However much I love Björling, Calaf was not a role that he could have sung on stage.


That's an interesting assertion. I mean, he never did sing it on stage, but I wonder on what basis you think he couldn't have? He sang plenty of heavy italian roles on stage--Manrico, Dick Johnson, Radames, etc. The only major one he avoided due to apprehension about size that I know of is Otello, and he was considering preparing himself for that role at the time of his unfortunately early death.


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## Granate

I really like Björling's Calaf, even though I have other favourites, but his Studio recording is the most rounded for me. If only his Nessun Dorma wasn't engineered to sound only from the left speakers! Nilsson and Tebaldi are terrific, but from that era, Corelli and Di Stefano (in a great 1958 Scala recording) do stunning performances.


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## VitellioScarpia

howlingfantods said:


> That's an interesting assertion. I mean, he never did sing it on stage, but I wonder on what basis you think he couldn't have? He sang plenty of heavy italian roles on stage--Manrico, Dick Johnson, Radames, etc. The only major one he avoided due to apprehension about size that I know of is Otello, and he was considering preparing himself for that role at the time of his unfortunately early death.


I some descriptions on the recording and saw some recording session photographs (I do not have them) alluding to Björling being consistently placed closer to the microphones than Tebaldi, Tozzi and others (no mention specifically to Nilsson). You have a point that he sang Manrico in many places but the orchestration is lighter than Turandot's: Puccini's doubling of the vocal line in the orchestra helps singers that are larger voiced but works against those with lighter ones. Mind you, he sang beautifully and I love his role. I was only trying to represent my preference of Turandot's recordings based on those that I return

Björling sang _Fanciulla_ on stage early in his career (9 times) -- note that he also sang Fidelio (4 times)! and some other heavies but did not stay with them in his repertory as Manrico (67 outings) or Radamés (31); see the roles and years in this link..


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## annaw

VitellioScarpia said:


> *I some descriptions on the recording and saw some recording session photographs (I do not have them) alluding to Björling being consistently placed closer to the microphones than Tebaldi, Tozzi and others (no mention specifically to Nilsson).* You have a point that he sang Manrico in many places but the orchestration is lighter than Turandot's: Puccini's doubling of the vocal line in the orchestra helps singers that are larger voiced but works against those with lighter ones. Mind you, he sang beautifully and I love his role. I was only trying to represent my preference of Turandot's recordings based on those that I return
> 
> Björling sang _Fanciulla_ on stage early in his career (9 times) -- note that he also sang Fidelio (4 times)! and some other heavies but did not stay with them in his repertory as Manrico (67 outings) or Radamés (31); see the roles and years in this link..


Haha, now I remembered this :lol:.




 (from 0:21)


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## Tsaraslondon

I assumed the Mehta recording of *Turandot* would win by a mile, but it seems there are quite a few alternatives. I've never been a fan of Nilsson, even in this role), but I'm now thinking I should maybe get the EMI recording. Peter G. Davis, writing in _The Metropolitan Opera Guide to Recorded Opera_ thinks the performances of both Nilsson and Corelli are a bit studio-bound compared to what they achieved under Stokowski at the Met a few years earlier, and prefers Nilsson's earlier studio recording.

I've heard all three of them at one time or another, but can't remember which I liked most at the time. Comments anyone?


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## SixFootScowl

VitellioScarpia said:


> I recommend the DGG recording conducted by Abbado with Ewing, Le Roux, Courtis, Ludwig and the VPO. I really like Ewing and it is Abbado at his best.


Listened to clips. Beautiful musically. Still trying to digest the story. Is Not sure I like the story.


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## Granate

SixFootScowl said:


> Listened to clips. Beautiful musically. Still trying to digest the story. Is Not sure I like the story.


I played today the second half of the 1960 metropolitan performance with London, Victoria de los Ángeles and Uppmann, while cooking Risotto. It makes me wanna invade Poland. The chills


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## howlingfantods

SixFootScowl said:


> Listened to clips. Beautiful musically. Still trying to digest the story. Is Not sure I like the story.


It might help to think of it as a fairy tale story--Melisande as a water nymph, like Rusalka. The origins of the character is based on Melusine, a character from French folklore.

You don't have to read the story that way--the mythical origins of the character is implied and not explicitly spelled out, but it's very heavily implied.


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## annaw

howlingfantods said:


> It might help to think of it as a fairy tale story--Melisande as a water nymph, like Rusalka. The origins of the character is based on Melusine, a character from French folklore.
> 
> You don't have to read the story that way--the mythical origins of the character is implied and not explicitly spelled out, but it's very heavily implied.


Yes! I think studying the background often makes operas much more interesting to listen to. It is based on Maeterlinck's play, who was part of Symbolist movement like Oscar Wilde. The play seems to be extremely fascinating itself: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pelléas_and_Mélisande.


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## The Conte

Tsaraslondon said:


> I assumed the Mehta recording of *Turandot* would win by a mile, but it seems there are quite a few alternatives. I've never been a fan of Nilsson, even in this role), but I'm now thinking I should maybe get the EMI recording. Peter G. Davis, writing in _The Metropolitan Opera Guide to Recorded Opera_ thinks the performances of both Nilsson and Corelli are a bit studio-bound compared to what they achieved under Stokowski at the Met a few years earlier, and prefers Nilsson's earlier studio recording.
> 
> I've heard all three of them at one time or another, but can't remember which I liked most at the time. Comments anyone?


Possibly my favourite recording of Nilsson and Corelli in the opera is a live one from the Met with Freni as Liu. It's conducted by Mehta, but only really available in a big, pricey box set of Met live recordings. (I compared their live recordings of the opera a couple of months ago in a thread.) My second studio choice would be the Mehta studio recording which also has the benefit of superb sound, however Corelli and Nilsson are my preferred duo in those roles (even though I am not much of a Nilsson fan).

I didn't have the EMI Nilsson studio recording for a long time and when I first listened to it I was bowled over by how good it was. I much prefer Scotto over Tebaldi and I like Bjorling, but don't quite understand why others are such big fans of his.

N.


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## Granate

I also find the EMI recording really studio-bound. I prefer to listen to the 1961 Stokowski Met performance. Try it Tsaras!

I may like a lot the Leinsdorf recording because it came along the Diapason collection box set with Puccini Operas, in pristine stereo along a fantastic Decca _Bohème_ with Tebaldi and Bergonzi or the famous Gavazzeni _Madama Butterfly_ with VDLA, Gobbi and Di Stefano. That box also has an interesting_ Fanciulla,_ which is the opera we are voting now.

I thought I was going to love the Mehta studio recording in London with Neblett and Domingo, but I wasn't ready for the live performance in *La Scala* conducted by *Lorin Maazel* and stuningly sung by the often neglected Mara Zampieri. Domingo is even more ardent in this performance than the Studio recording. I would warn that the SQ of La Scala is a bit odd until you adjust.


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## annaw

Granate said:


> I thought I was going to love the Mehta studio recording in London with Neblett and Domingo, but I wasn't ready for the live performance in *La Scala* conducted by *Lorin Maazel* and stuningly sung by the often neglected Mara Zampieri. Domingo is even more ardent in this performance than the Studio recording. I would warn that the SQ of La Scala is a bit odd until you adjust.


What do you think of Capuana Rome 1958 _Faniculla_? Seems to be generally quite well-regarded but I'd be really interested to hear your thoughts. I haven't yet listened to it myself, although I've been wanting to, but I'm not sure whether Del Monaco with his somewhat problematic legato and slightly - what's the word? - brutal style is good fit for Puccini though he sometimes can be very expressive if he (or the conductor?) wants to (1955 _Norma_ comes to mind).

Thoughts from others are very welcome as well .


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## Tsaraslondon

Granate said:


> I also find the EMI recording really studio-bound. I prefer to listen to the 1961 Stokowski Met performance. Try it Tsaras!
> 
> I may like a lot the Leinsdorf recording because it came along the Diapason collection box set with Puccini Operas, in pristine stereo along a fantastic Decca _Bohème_ with Tebaldi and Bergonzi or the famous Gavazzeni _Madama Butterfly_ with VDLA, Gobbi and Di Stefano. That box also has an interesting_ Fanciulla,_ which is the opera we are voting now.
> 
> I thought I was going to love the Mehta studio recording in London with Neblett and Domingo, but I wasn't ready for the live performance in *La Scala* conducted by *Lorin Maazel* and stuningly sung by the often neglected Mara Zampieri. Domingo is even more ardent in this performance than the Studio recording. I would warn that the SQ of La Scala is a bit odd until you adjust.


I've gone for ROH Neblett and Domingo for both te CD and DVD, possibly because my preferences are coloured by me seeing them both in this production - a very memorable evening in the opera house.


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## VitellioScarpia

Tsaraslondon said:


> I've gone for ROH Neblett and Domingo for both te CD and DVD, possibly because my preferences are coloured by me seeing them both in this production - a very memorable evening in the opera house.


I like the Capuana with Tebaldi, Del Monaco and MacNeil studio recording better than the Mehta with Neblett, Domingo, Milnes because (1) Decca in 1958 offers much better sound than DGG in 1977 (I even got the Pentatone reissue on SACD and they could not fix it ), (2) Tebaldi and MacNeil are fantastic as Minnie and Rance, and Del Monaco is in great voice and less crude than usual (it has been said that Tebaldi brought the best of him). However, the DVD with Neblett, Domingo, Carroli and Santi trumps, in my book, either studio recording.

There's something in Zampieri's voice production that grates me and I do not like Pons, so to me the La Scala with Maazel is not competitive.


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## SixFootScowl

My biggest problem in this voting effort is that I have to do some work figuring out the orchestra and production dates. All my stuff is usually filed by opera and main singer or sometimes by opera and conductor. I get mixed up on orchestra names because they have variances and sometimes are in a foreign language. Anyway, maybe this post should have been in the Gripe of the Day thread instead. :lol:


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## howlingfantods

VitellioScarpia said:


> I like the Capuana with Tebaldi, Del Monaco and MacNeil studio recording better than the Mehta with Neblett, Domingo, Milnes because (1) Decca in 1958 offers much better sound than DGG in 1977 (I even got the Pentatone reissue on SACD and they could not fix it ), (2) Tebaldi and MacNeil are fantastic as Minnie and Rance, and Del Monaco is in great voice and less crude than usual (it has been said that Tebaldi brought the best of him). However, the DVD with Neblett, Domingo, Carroli and Santi trumps, in my book, either studio recording.
> 
> There's something in Zampieri's voice production that grates me and I do not like Pons, so to me the La Scala with Maazel is not competitive.


Agree with everything you said, except I think the DVD with Neblett actually exposes how much of a studio creation her audio recording is; I think she's pretty mediocre on video. I've yet to see a video of Fanciulla that I find enjoyable.


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## Tsaraslondon

howlingfantods said:


> Agree with everything you said, except I think the DVD with Neblett actually exposes how much of a studio creation her audio recording is; I think she's pretty mediocre on video. I've yet to see a video of Fanciulla that I find enjoyable.


Having actually seen her in the role at Covent Garden in that very same production, I can assure you Neblett's Minnie was a long way from being just a studio creation.


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## howlingfantods

Tsaraslondon said:


> Having actually seen her in the role at Covent Garden in that very same production, I can assure you Neblett's Minnie was a long way from being just a studio creation.


They picked a bad night to record that video, then.


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## VitellioScarpia

howlingfantods said:


> They picked a bad night to record that video, then.


Interesting. However, I find the recording so deplorable. I do not think that she sounds so mediocre in the video. Neblett was not a voice that I loved but I thought her credible in the video. Not in the recording... To each our own... :lol:


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## Granate

Today's discussion is Bellini's Norma! Too bad I know so little about Bel Canto. I planned to explore this genre by this time, but personal issues and some life decisions have postponed it indefinetely.

I'm now looking at the list of results from position 21 to 40 to make up my favourite recordings. Enjoy the debate!


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## annaw

Finally an opera I actually feel acquainted with. I went with 1955 Votto La Scala which has Callas' Norma, Del Monaco's Pollione and Simionato's Adalgisa. This was the first _Norma_ I listened to and it got me very hooked - no other recording I've listened to afterwards has managed to achieve such great dramatic effect as this one. Callas' lower register is stunning and gives Norma the commanding effect I really love but which no one else I've heard has managed to achieve. At the same time she conveys the devastated and vulnerable side of Norma very effectively as well. Del Monaco is a superb Pollione - I think this role fits him rather well. My second preference would be 1960 Serafin La Scala but I feel that Callas in her prime deserves the full points!

Callas is, in my opinion, THE Norma, Caballe is my second choice and then it's Sutherland. My main problem with Sutherland is her extremely _bel canto_ take and little focus on the drama. While I can sort of overlook it in _Norma_ because it's shorter, I wasn't able to do so in _I Puritani_... Her coloratura is stunning though and I really like her singing and vocal mastery but that's the reason she's not essentially my first choice.


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## The Conte

Norma stands or falls depending on who the soprano in the title role is. Therefore the dilemma is how many of Callas' recordings to vote for.

N.


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## Tsaraslondon

*Norma* really is a case of which of Callas's recordings to choose. She recorded it twice in the studio and quite a few of her live performances have been preserved too, the best ones being London, 1952, Rome 1955 and La Scala 1955. I gave all my points to Votto 1955 as it's the one I listen to most often, but I wouldn't want to be without any of the others.

I don't think any other singer has yet challenged Callas's hegemony in the role, but Caballé in Orange perhaps came closest and that is my DVD choice.


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## The Conte

Tsaraslondon said:


> *Norma* really is a case of which of Callas's recordings to choose. She recorded it twice in the studio and quite a few of her live performances have been preserved too, the best ones being London, 1952, Rome 1955 and La Scala 1955. I gave all my points to Votto 1955 as it's the one I listen to most often, but I wouldn't want to be without any of the others.
> 
> I don't think any other singer has yet challenged Callas's hegemony in the role, but Caballé in Orange perhaps came closest and that is my DVD choice.


Good choices. I felt that some considerations about sound quality had to be taken into account and so also voted for the second studio recording and a different DVD choice.

N.


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## nina foresti

annaw said:


> What do you think of Capuana Rome 1958 _Faniculla_? Seems to be generally quite well-regarded but I'd be really interested to hear your thoughts. I haven't yet listened to it myself, although I've been wanting to, but I'm not sure whether Del Monaco with his somewhat problematic legato and slightly - what's the word? - brutal style is good fit for Puccini though he sometimes can be very expressive if he (or the conductor?) wants to (1955 _Norma_ comes to mind).
> 
> Thoughts from others are very welcome as well .


Without a single doubt, the one that stands out above the rest for me is the Tebaldi/Konya/Colzani 1970 CD_ Fanciulla_. The Poker Scene alone is worth it. Never have I heard a more exciting, riveting scene, even without a drop of singing -- just the gnawing strains of the orchestra which tell the story perfectly. And when she shouts, "Tre assi e un paio" the audience explodes.

Puccini: La Fanciulla del West (The Girl of the Golden West) [New York -- March 14, 1970; Renata Tebaldi, Sandor Konya, Anselmo Colzani, Paul Plishka, Jan Behr]


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## Granate

That is a good question. How much do you enjoy the Serafin Stereo recording with Corelli and Ludwig? Is it impossible not to think of the 50s performances for you?

About the Capuana Decca recording of La Fanciulla in Santa Cecilia, in my comments from the challenge, I didn't think that Tebaldi and Monaco were vocally fit for those characters, plus the differences of the orchestration of Madama Butterfly to La Fanciulla were too obvious. The Santa Cecilia isn't such a big orchestra for the score and I found the playing muddy. I prefer the Tebaldi Decca Santa Cecilia recordings in a much more intimate setting like MB, Otello or La Bohème.


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## Tsaraslondon

Granate said:


> That is a good question. How much do you enjoy the Serafin Stereo recording with Corelli and Ludwig? Is it impossible not to think of the 50s performances for you?


The 1960 Serafin *Norma* was the first opera set I ever owned - a Christmas present to me from my brother. I was still a teenager and had recently become aware of Callas after hearing some of her earlier Cetra recordings. I don't remember being particularly aware of, or bothered by, the deterioration in her voice. I just loved it from day one and played it constantly. It was only later that I became aware of the 1950s performances. I still have a great deal of affection for the stereo set. Though I can now hear that the voice is less secure than it once was, there are some parts that are more movingly expressed than in any of her other recordings. Furthermore, I like the rest of the cast. Corelli is arguably the best Pollione on any of her sets and Ludwig turns out to be a much more successful Adalgisa than expected. I much prefer her to Stignani on the earlier studio set, and no alterations have to be made to the vocal line to accomodate her. Consequently I still prefer it to the 1954 set.

However I now much prefer the 1955 La Scala set, which sounds pretty good on Divina. It seems to me that it captures a perfect moment in time when the art and the voice are at their greatest equilibrium. The performance came at the end of possibly the most exciting and successful year in Callas's career. The weight loss had liberated her as an actress and the vocal deterioraton had yet to take hold. It was the year of the Visconti productions of *La Traviata* and *La Sonnambula*, the Zeffirelli *Il Turco in Italia*, the Berlin *Lucia di Lammermoor* under Karajan, studio recordings of *Madama Butterfly* *Aida* and *Rigoletto*, and her second feted season in Chicago (*Il Trovatore* with Bjørling, *I Puritani* and *Madama Butterfly*).

I also prefer the La Scala performance to the Rome radio performance of the same year, mostly because we get Simionato instead of Stignani, and because on stage as opposed to on the concert platform, Callas is even more moving. This is without doubt the greatest performance of the opera I have ever heard.


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## VitellioScarpia

Regarding the Callas' Normas, I believe that we make choices based on details among great interpretations be the 1952 (ROH), 1954 (EMI), 1955 (RAI), 1955 (Scala) or even the 1960 (EMI). I personally like the "fatter" voice of Callas in 1952 to the 1955 one but as I said it is mostly a matter of taste. I believe that Norma needs a "majesty" that is less apparent in the later outings. 

On the DVD side, I think that for a great modern Norma performance, the Met production from 2017 with Radvanovsky, Di Donato, Calleja and Rose is excellent. La Rad can stand proudly against many Normas and nothing to envy them. Her only "problem" is that she is not Callas, who could?  I love her because she does not try to imitate others and shows a great commitment to the role. Di Donato is also a fantastic Adalgisa. I am partial to Calleja as a singer since I find his voice quite beautiful and harking back to the sounds of bygone eras...


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## Tsaraslondon

Elsehwere we have been discussing the relative merits of the Beecham and Karajan Bohèmes and here we are now voting, so some people's choices are not going to be a surprise. I prefer both Beecham and Votto (a seriously underrated recording, in my opinion) to Karajan, so have allocated each three points. Karajan would be mu third choice.

My video choice might seem a bit of a surprise, but, though you will hear it better sung elsewhere, on screend this works very well. The updating to the 50s does not upset the balance of the work at all and all the singers are believably young and excellent actors. Luhrmann directs Act II like a musical, full of high spirits and fun, but doesn't lose any of the works big emotional moments. This is one of those performances that adds up to far more than the sum of its parts.


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## VitellioScarpia

Following on my voting for Bohème and again based on my discussions in other threads about Bohème, I prefer the Callas, Di Stefano, Votto recording. In spite of the fact that Callas did not sing the role on stage, her performance is amazingly musical. Phrases that are glossed over by many other singers mean a lot with her without sounding artificial to me. Di Stefano is a passionate Rodolfo and blends magnificently with Callas. They have real chemistry. My second choice is the first Tebaldi Decca, more spontaneous than the second and it sound to me like a real performance.

On DVD, I am partial to the first Live from the Met telecast in 1977 with Pavarotti and Scotto. They both had chemistry in that performance, they made me care for both of them because they cared for one another. Scotto is a special singer to me. As an example, watch and listen to _Ma quando vien lo sgelo_ starting at 3:08 -- note also Pavarotti's reaction -- and her return to "reality" at 4:08. 



As Rodolfo, Pavarotti is more engaged in the role like I have never seen him, in prime voice and musicality. I love this performance because without going over the top it has deep emotion and understanding which I find all the more touching.


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## nina foresti

For me there is no possible doubt that this DVD wins the crown. Shicoff and Cotrubas have a chemistry between them that is palpable. The sincerity of the singers who never overact, as in so many last act *Bohemes*, but rather show a true inner performance that is rare in opera.


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## Granate

Spent the last half an hour interrupting my Haydn listenings to experience three Mi chiamamo Mimì by Callas, Tebaldi and Freni. Addictive. Goosebumps everytime.


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## The Conte

Granate said:


> Spent the last half an hour interrupting my Haydn listenings to experience three Mi chiamamo Mimì by Callas, Tebaldi and Freni. Addictive. Goosebumps everytime.


But who won? (And why no De los Angeles?)

N.


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## Granate

If you want, you are free to discuss your favourite Forzas del Destino. My taste for this opera relies more on the conducting than the singing, and that's why I really casted those two votes. I think I already made my points in *this post* long ago, and I wouldn't like things to get ugly again.

Too bad to leave out the three great Tebaldi recordings and live performances (Santa Cecilia Decca 1955 with Del Monaco and F. M-P; Scala 1955 with Di Stefano and Votto; and Metropolitan 1960 with Tucker and Schippers, one or two performances after the death of Leonard Warren).


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## Tsaraslondon

Granate and I have crossed swords on this before, but I think Callas's Leonora one of her greatest recordings, and one that is often underrated. And I am not alone.



> [She has] an unparalleled musical sensibility and imagination, subtle changes of tonal weight through the wonderfully shaped set-pieces, and a grasp of the musico-dramatic picture which is unique.


 Lord Harewood in _Opera on Record_.



> Hers is an electrifying performance, providing a focus for an opera normally regarded as diffuse. Though there are classic examples of Callas's raw tone on top ntes, they are insignificant next to the wealth of phrasing which sets a totally new and individual stamp on even the most familiar passages.


 Penguin Guide.



> As Leonora, Maria Callas sets before us in the first five minutes a figure of tragic dimensions. Her initial utterance Oh angoscia! is half weariness, and Ah, padre mio! reveals in a phrase her love for her father. At the end of her first aria. we have a complete outline of the character: lost, intrepid, addicted to a dream of love. In addition to this, she reveals, upon arrival at the monastery, an element of desperate spiritual solitude and a radiant simplicity of faith in La vergine degli angeli. In Act IV, Pace, pace sounds once again the note of unanswerable longing, and finally she dramatises the acceptance of the peace of death at the end. Of course, this is what Verdi put into his score, but how often do we hear it laid out so vividly, in all its mysterious complexity, in performance? There are, it should be said, a few wobbly top notes, but generally the voice is rich, steady, and infintely present.


 London Green in _The Metropolitan Guide to Recorded Opera_.



> [The role] requires a lot more vocal dexterity than it usually gets.
> 
> Listen to the aria Me pellegrina ed orfana and note how Callas marks the semi-quaver rests at Ti lascia ahime whilst still maintaining her impeccable legato, observing the downward portamento on the word sorte, the whole phrase sung in a single sweep. As usual the music is rendered with uncanny accuracy, as it is when she brilliantly articulates dotted notes in the cabaletta of the following duet with Alvaro (only too noticeable when Tucker comes galumphing after her, aspirating and puffing in an attempt to keep up).
> 
> But, as usual with Callas, she goes beyond accurate observation of the score to reveal the meaning behind the notes. Her very first words (oh angoscia) tell us of the conflict in Leonora's heart, her voice suffused with melancholy. Other sopranos may have given us a more beautifully poised sustained pianissimo top Bb in Pace pace, or drawn a firmer line in La vergine degli angeli, and those for whom such vocal niceties are paramount should probably look elsewhere...
> 
> Central to the role, and the opera, is the monastery scene, starting with the glorious Madre, pietosa vergine and finishing with La vergine degli angeli. This whole section, with Rossi-Lemeni a wonderfully sympathetic, if woolly-voiced Padre Guardiano, is a locus classicus of Callas's art, her voice responsive to every conflicting emotion in Leonora's heart, her darkly plangent tone absolutely perfect for the character. I doubt you will ever hear it more movingly or truthfully conveyed.


 My own blog.

Admittedly the rest of the cast is not on her exalted level, but they are more than adequate. Tucker can be a bit lacrymose and tends to aspirate and puff, but there is the compensation of the voice itself, Rossi-Lemeni's tone is a bit woolly, but he is a dramatically involved Guardiano, Nicolai is fine as Preziosilla and there is a superb cameo from Renato Capecchi as Melitone. The most questionable element is Tagliabue's over-the-hill Carlo, but he is never less than adequate. Serafin's conducting is another element that I think has been severely underrated, dramatically incisive (just listen to those stabbing chords when Leonora is mortally wounded in the last act) and sweepingly lyrical in the best Italian tradition.


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## VitellioScarpia

I am also very partial to the Serafin, Callas recording of La Forza del Destino. Their partnership in this recording is amazing and the meaning they extract from every note, every comma is a pleasure. Callas is still holding to some of her fat voice (except for the less secure high notes) but a voice full of tears and desperation without sounding teary or weak. She was blazing with a desperate sound and Serafin supports her all the way. There are so many examples but listen how Serafin launches the "simple" accompaniment to _Madre pietosa vergine_ at the beginning of the convent scene (Act 2, Scene 2); or how in Act 4, Scene 2 she cries at _*Che* l'amo ancor_ in the _Pace, pace_. This is one of the operas that Callas and Serafin ruined for me as everyone else seems to come short to these two. Unfortunately for me, it was the first Forza I ever owned so I have put much work to enjoy others!

My second CD choice is to bring attention to a hidden gem. This is Suliotis' live in San Carlo in early 1966 in prime voice and blazing with power and steadiness. This is the only live recording that fully shows the impact that she could make in the theater early on (by late 1966 her La Scala Nabucco was already showing some decline). She dominates the proceedings and it is FUN.

For the DVD option, I love the Tebaldi, Corelli, Bastianini, Christoff, Dominguez RAI telecast. I don't care that the Guardiano looks funny, or that some of the staging moves, etc. etc. This is what great singing is all about, and Tebaldi is more engaged than in her estimable Decca recording. (It may surprise that an inveterate Callas admirer can also love and admire Tebaldi. I always did.) Everyone is magnificent.


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## Granate

Yeah, I watched that Napoli production and acting then was kind of old fashioned :lol: Remembering Tebaldi affectedly touching her forehead with her hand in Act III, followed by such a caricaturesque Padre Guardiano by Boris Christoff, so minced compare to his huge voice...

Singing is great to be honest.

Rogerx often watches the Scala performance conducted by Giuseppe Patané and sung by Caballé, Carreras, Cappuccilli and Ghiaurov. What do you think of it? I've never watched it unfortunately.


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## howlingfantods

callas's voice is still in decent shape for her EMI recording (minus a couple of painful notes) and i do enjoy her performance, but the 1958 tebaldi performance is very special--the most musical performance i've heard of the role. 

tebaldi's costars deliver a vastly better performance than callas's -- corelli+bastianini >>>>>>> tucker+taglaibue, and considering that the men have as many highlight moments and as much stage time as leonore--maybe more in alvaro's case--i consider the tenor/baritone performances to be equally important. in fact maybe my favorite bit of this opera is the act 4 duet, le minacce i fieri accenti. corelli/bastianini deliver what i think is the most beautiful version i've heard, although bergonzi/cappuccilli give them a run for their money on the 1969 gardelli recording.

i've always found it odd that some people appear to judge opera recordings almost solely by the performance of the soprano--it is sort of justifiable in some very soprano-heavy operas like traviata i suppose, but i find it unhelpful for more heavily ensemble operas like forza or trovatore.

forza is an odd opera--it contains some of verdi's most beautiful music and some of his worst, most tedious and banal and frankly embarrassing. i found it odd that this placed higher in the top 200 voting than rigoletto, trovatore, and ballo. and even though macbeth and simon are pretty uneven, i'd place them above forza as well.


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## VitellioScarpia

howlingfantods said:


> callas's voice is still in decent shape for her EMI recording (minus a couple of painful notes) and i do enjoy her performance, but the 1958 tebaldi performance is very special--the most musical performance i've heard of the role.
> 
> tebaldi's costars deliver a vastly better performance than callas's -- corelli+bastianini >>>>>>> tucker+taglaibue, and considering that the men have as many highlight moments and as much stage time as leonore--maybe more in alvaro's case--i consider the tenor/baritone performances to be equally important. in fact maybe my favorite bit of this opera is the act 4 duet, le minacce i fieri accenti. corelli/bastianini deliver what i think is the most beautiful version i've heard, although bergonzi/cappuccilli give them a run for their money on the 1969 gardelli recording.
> 
> i've always found it odd that some people appear to judge opera recordings almost solely by the performance of the soprano--it is sort of justifiable in some very soprano-heavy operas like traviata i suppose, but i find it unhelpful for more heavily ensemble operas like forza or trovatore.
> 
> forza is an odd opera--it contains some of verdi's most beautiful music and some of his worst, most tedious and banal and frankly embarrassing. i found it odd that this placed higher in the top 200 voting than rigoletto, trovatore, and ballo. and even though macbeth and simon are pretty uneven, i'd place them above forza as well.


All good observations, but for me La Forza centers around Leonora as the character driving whole story. The setting of events with Leonora in Act I, the failed escape, the dishonoring of the Calatrava house because her love for a _mestizo_, the curse that follows all of them till the end. Alvaro and Carlos become friends in Act 3 (the battle of Velletri) only to separate because of Carlo's discovery that he is his sister's lover. Her presence is everywhere in the opera (as it is the Marquis), even turning into Alvaro's redeemer in the finale in that fantastic trio that closes the opera. Thus, a remarkable Leonora lifts for me the whole opera even if the others are not in the same exalted state. Ergo, my preference for Callas' recording in spite of Tagliabue who is the weakest link. Just my $0.02. I need a blazing Leonora to lift the whole opera.


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## howlingfantods

1. i think tebaldi in 58 is the equal of callas in 54, maybe better.
2. being the character plot device that powers the opera doesn't mean that that character's casting is the most important. is the girl from Arles the most important casting in "L'Arlesienne"? (this is a joke obviously)


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## VitellioScarpia

howlingfantods said:


> 1. i think tebaldi in 58 is the equal of callas in 54, maybe better.
> 2. being the character plot device that powers the opera doesn't mean that that character's casting is the most important. is the girl from Arles the most important casting in "L'Arlesienne"? (this is a joke obviously)


Good for you. Enjoy.


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## Granate

howlingfantods said:


> forza is an odd opera--it contains some of verdi's most beautiful music and some of his worst, most tedious and banal and frankly embarrassing. i found it odd that this placed higher in the top 200 voting than rigoletto, trovatore, and ballo. and even though macbeth and simon are pretty uneven, i'd place them above forza as well.


Kudos to all you said. But I wanted to comment on this. I also found Verdi's Music in Forza sometimes uneven or unpleasant, but that was before watching and following a live performance of it, precisely the Napoli 1958 one. I followed along the libretto and rest of characters, especially Fra Melitone. You know that La Forza del Destino is taken from a Romantic stage play called Don Álvaro o la Fuerza del Sino, which I read when I was really young in Spanish. I loved it, I loved the tragic and romatic feeling of Álvaro and especially how Leonora was portrayed in the Abbey scene and how the events happen between Álvaro and Don Carlo (because it's summed up in the Opera), just to find the revised Opera ending oddly dull (Alvaro commits suicide in very sharp and picturesque cliffs in the play).

When I watched that production, I recognised many Spanish elements I found familiar, but also found how Verdi had translated musically the contrast between the peasant world and the nobility, and within the nobility, the different tunes between Álvaro and Leonora, And the Father and Don Carlo. I now appreciate all of them.

It happens to me that the more acquainted I am with Verdi's Macbeth (I mean, to imagine the scenes and the lines), the more I enjoy it, the more I'm able to see how Cossotto draws Milnes into madness and how the Macbetto changes vocally through the opera.

This should be the time to discuss about Mussorgsky's Boris Godunov. I've been busy with work and checking sneakers to buy on sale. Since I won't be able to spend money on CDs for a very long time.

Sorry!


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## SixFootScowl

Voting on Boris Godunov is problematical because there are two operas: 1869 and 1872. Wish they were separately polled.


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## VitellioScarpia

howlingfantods said:


> 1. i think tebaldi in 58 is the equal of callas in 54, maybe better.
> 2. being the character plot device that powers the opera doesn't mean that that character's casting is the most important. is the girl from Arles the most important casting in "L'Arlesienne"? (this is a joke obviously)


L'Arlesienne is not an opera but L'Arlesiana is...


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## Tsaraslondon

SixFootScowl said:


> Voting on Boris Godunov is problematical because there are two operas: 1869 and 1872. Wish they were separately polled.


More than two versions really, when you take into consideration Rimsky-Korsakov's version, which was the one normally performed for many years. I know it's now been discredited, but I do rather like Karajan's VPO version, so allocated it two of my points.


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## Granate

There are so many great things that this opera has left in recordings. I prefer by a mile the 1872 2nd Orchestration over Rimsky, and it's too bad I'm leaving out the stereo recording made by Jerzy Semkow and the Polish team along a great team of singers (Gedda repeating the role). But EMI had in their vaults for years what for me is the second greatest recording of the opera, undoubtedly the best sung, the RK version performed in Paris sung by Christoff and Gedda, and a great cast despite the shortage of basses. Sound Quality is fantastic too.

The Gergiev 1872 recording in Amsterdam (with the Mariinsky forces that would later record great Russian operas for the Philips label) takes the cake in my opinion. One of my favourite acquisitions on CD, powerfully played and recorded, with great but not legendary singing, Vladimir Galusin playing an arresting Dimitrij, a powerful yet lyrical tenor who would be the star of Mariinski's RK Sadko. Which scene the opera ends with does not bother me too much, as long as I have the recordings that I most cherish.










Just for the conducting, even if it uses the RK orchestration, this is one of the recordings I look forward to listen from the original tapes, and I don't think the Alto transfer is enough (Marc Ermler, Bolshoi Theatre, Nesterenko, Atlantov, Obratzova).

And have you heard the Bavarian studio recording with Hotter, Hopf and Mödl in German? It never made much for me.










The Kubelík 1958 Covent Garden often looks tempting, but SQ is really trashy.


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## SixFootScowl

Tsaraslondon said:


> More than two versions really, when you take into consideration Rimsky-Korsakov's version, which was the one normally performed for many years. I know it's now been discredited, but I do rather like Karajan's VPO version, so allocated it two of my points.


Wasn't there yet even one more version/orchestration? Stokowski maybe?


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## SixFootScowl

My main issue with the 1872 is the loss of the St. Basil scene and the inclusion of Kromy Forest scene. I love St. Basil and hate Kromy. I do like the Poiish Scene, so a conflated version is best where everything is included, then I just delete the Kromy part. However, I sitll hold the original 1869 in Mussorgsky's orchestration the highest. I don't think Rimsky ever touched the 1869, so maybe there is only Mussorgsky's orchestration of that one and AFAIK only the two recordings, Gergiev and the recent Nagano set..


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## Tsaraslondon

SixFootScowl said:


> Wasn't there yet even one more version/orchestration? Stokowski maybe?


I don't know about Stokoswki, but there is a Shostakovich version.


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## SixFootScowl

Tsaraslondon said:


> I don't know about Stokoswki, but there is a Shostakovich version.


Okay. Now I remember it was Pictures at an Exhibition that Stowkowski did an orchestration of.

But a Shostakovich orchestrated Boris could be interesting.


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## annaw

Any opinions on Keilberth 1955 and Kna 1955 _Dutchman_s? It was somewhat hard to choose but, in the end, I think I still favour Keilberth's a bit over Kna's recording. Mainly because of more quick conducting which in my opinion fits the opera better. It's a pity Keilberth's recording doesn't have Windgassen's Erik though...


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## The Conte

annaw said:


> Any opinions on Keilberth 1955 and Kna 1955 _Dutchman_s? It was somewhat hard to choose but, in the end, I think I still favour Keilberth's a bit over Kna's recording. Mainly because of more quick conducting which in my opinion fits the opera better. It's a pity Keilberth's recording doesn't have Windgassen's Erik though...


It's a very close call. I remember listening to the recordings back to back and I found Kna's version more dramatic despite the more leisurely speeds. I was impressed at how he didn't lose sight of the drama in his reading. (Keilberth's is also superb, but I didn't want two recordings with such similar casts as the opera isn't a favourite of mine.)

N.


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## annaw

The Conte said:


> It's a very close call. I remember listening to the recordings back to back and I found Kna's version more dramatic despite the more leisurely speeds. I was impressed at how he didn't lose sight of the drama in his reading. (Keilberth's is also superb, but I didn't want two recordings with such similar casts as the opera isn't a favourite of mine.)
> 
> N.


Yes, certainly both have their merits  ! I really love Kna's conducting in general but I recall finding Keilberth's _Holländer[/I ]more appealing. Maybe I should give Kna's another listen though. I just remembered, Hotter's Met recording is wonderful as well. Despite some shortcomings in the casting of minor roles, young Varnay and Hotter are a thrilling combination! Hmm, maybe I should give it one point..._


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## Granate

Now we've got Rigoletto!

I think we may all agree that the Serafin Gobbi Callas Di Stefano record is going to win by a landslide. But I changed my vote last minute and replaced my two points for the great Giulini recording in Vienna with the Sinopoli Santa Cecilia recording with a surprisingly fine cast in Bruson, Gruverova and Shicoff, not to mention the terrific Sound and Playing quality. I'd love to get it on CD.


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## Tsaraslondon

Granate said:


> Now we've got Rigoletto!
> 
> I think we may all agree that the Serafin Gobbi Callas Di Stefano record is going to win by a landslide. But I changed my vote last minute and replaced my two points for the great Giulini recording in Vienna with the Sinopoli Santa Cecilia recording with a surprisingly fine cast in Bruson, Gruverova and Shicoff, not to mention the terrific Sound and Playing quality. I'd love to get it on CD.


I've always considered the Giulini my stereo alternate to the Serafin, but I've never actually heard this one. I do like Bruson, but then, generally, I prefer Cotrubas to Gruberova. Maybe I should give it a try though.


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## The Conte

Rigoletto is an easy one for me. I'm not that familiar with the DVD versions of the opera, so no vote there from me. However, the Serafin wins hands down. I can only contemplate performances of the opera where the title role is acted. If your Cortigiani, vil razza has not one iota of torment, I'm not interested and beautiful Verdian phrasing and italianate lyric singing aren't enough to cut the mustard here.

That's why there are only three Rigolettos on disc that do anything for me: Gobbi, Milnes and Tibbett. Every other baritone I've heard in the opera is a let down for me. I've never understood the attraction of the Sinopoli recording. Bruson (like Cappuccilli) sings the part with technical ease, style and great beauty, but he doesn't come across as the rough, wronged jester. Shicoff is good, but when you have Di Stefano, Pavarotti and even Domingo in other versions there is stiff competition there. Gruberova is lovely, of course, but there is so much more to this character and she is always second to Sutherland in my book.

N.


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## Granate

It's the second time I post about this. I really recommend the Rudel Philharmonia Recording just to hear my favourite version of Milnes' Rigoletto. I don't enjoy Sutherland or Pavarotti a lot.










I love the way Sinopoli conducts too. I'd love to get it since I already own the Serafin and the Giulini with the libretto (Domingo playing a character that we would later know he didn't need to fake up, ).

What I regret is not exploring other Historical Rigoletto performances from the same era around the Serafin recording. How much do you like the live Callas performance? And others from the 50s?


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## The Conte

Granate said:


> It's the second time I post about this. I really recommend the Rudel Philharmonia Recording just to hear my favourite version of Milnes' Rigoletto. I don't enjoy Sutherland or Pavarotti a lot.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I love the way Sinopoli conducts too. I'd love to get it since I already own the Serafin and the Giulini with the libretto (Domingo playing a character that we would later know he didn't need to fake up, ).
> 
> What I regret is not exploring other Historical Rigoletto performances from the same era around the Serafin recording. How much do you like the live Callas performance? And others from the 50s?


I only know the Callas live (a rough and ready performance with Callas not having the insights we hear in the studio recording, Campolonghi doesn't come close to Gobbi's achievement and Mugnai was a routinier that I wouldn't mention in the same breath with Serafin) and the Cetra with Taddei. The Cetra is good, but it doesn't reach the height of later recordings, I find Pagliughi underwhelming. She had a pretty voice and good technique, but she was at the end of her career here and her singing can be dull and without colour.

I don't know the Milnes/Sills/Kraus set, but I don't like Sills and prefer Pavarotti over Kraus. I should search it out on YouTube, though.

N.


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## Granate

Is this link enough? It will have ads just like spotify. Like, click on the channel, search albums. I found the complete recording there split like a Spotify album.


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## Tsaraslondon

Granate said:


> It's the second time I post about this. I really recommend the Rudel Philharmonia Recording just to hear my favourite version of Milnes' Rigoletto. I don't enjoy Sutherland or Pavarotti a lot.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I love the way Sinopoli conducts too. I'd love to get it since I already own the Serafin and the Giulini with the libretto (Domingo playing a character that we would later know he didn't need to fake up, ).
> 
> What I regret is not exploring other Historical Rigoletto performances from the same era around the Serafin recording. How much do you like the live Callas performance? And others from the 50s?


The live Callas is a bit of a mess of a performance and sounds under-rehearsed. That said, though Callas doesn't probe as deeply as she does in the studio recording (no doubt partly due to her less than ideal surroundings and having to play with the hammy Rigoletto of Campolonghi), she is in terrific voice and still creates a real flesh and blood character. She was not happy with her performance of the role and never again sang it on stage, which is a great pity.

I reviewed the set on my blog here.


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## Granate

I can't believe none of us can think of a single DVD edition for Rigoletto.


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## Tsaraslondon

Granate said:


> I can't believe none of us can think of a single DVD edition for Rigoletto.


I've just thought of one I like.

Jonathan Miller's ENO production (in English). It seems to be available on Amazon UK. Is it too late to add it?


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## Tsaraslondon

When it comes to *Il Trovatore*, I think Karajan's La Scala recording is almost as much of a classic as the De Sabata *Tosca* or the Serafin *Rigoletto*, my reasons for which I outline in my much fuller review on my blog https://tsaraslondon.wordpress.com/2017/01/08/il-trovatore/. Leonora was musically one of Callas's greatest achievements. Splendid performances from Barbieri, Panerai and Zaccaria and Di Stefano, though he doesn't really have the necessary weight, almost convinces he has. As for Karajan's conducting, it is superb, rhythmically alert and thrillingly dramatic.

The Giulini is a very different performance, much more measured and thoughtful, but I like Fassbaender's unconventional Azucena, Plowright's plangently beautiful Leonora and Domingo's golden toned Manrico, so I gave it one of my points.


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## howlingfantods

i don't think the weight is the problem with di stefano--bjorling is essentially the same vocal weight but i think bjorling works like gangbusters as manrico but di stefano's performance disqualifies the karajan recording for me. 

the problem for me is his vocal character. he has a laughing, youthful and light-humored sound that works great for roles like riccardo/gustavo, pinkerton, alfredo, etc, but I find him absurd in more heroic or dramatic roles like manrico or canio. even his cavaradossi is only decent to me, i like the de sabata tosca for everything besides di stefano.

i think panerai and zaccaria are pretty good but I'm a little bemused by the praise i see sometimes for their performances on this record. basically i like the women on this recording and karajan's conducting, and the sound is very good mono. but the men take this out of the running for me. obviously others disagree since this recording looks like the clear winner in the voting.


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## The Conte

When it comes to the Verdi and his 'triologia popolare' each one is a showcase for a different voice type which provides the title for each opera respectively.

Rigoletto and Traviata are baritone and soprano vehicles respectively and whilst Trov is more of an ensemble work, the title role is still all important. On repeated listenings I've come to the conclusion that the centre of the piece is the Manrico/Azucena duet and those two roles are the most important in the opera. That's why I'm surprised there haven't been as many votes as I would have expected for either of the Corelli/Simionato versions.

Whilst I think that the Karajan with Callas is a superb achievement and would get my vote for second place among the studio recordings, I much prefer her live performance from La Scala in 1953 (and I was considering giving some votes to it). Stignani is a vividly dramatic Azucena (more emotionally involved than Barbieri in the studio) and whilst I prefer the individual tones of Di Stefano and Panerai, Penno and Tagliabue are on superb form. I usually prefer Karajan over Votto, but on this occasion Votto has more fire, it being a live performance and that's very important in what is one of Verdi's most melodramatic works.

N.


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## howlingfantods

The Conte said:


> Rigoletto and Traviata are baritone and soprano vehicles respectively and whilst Trov is more of an ensemble work, the title role is still all important. On repeated listenings I've come to the conclusion that the centre of the piece is the Manrico/Azucena duet and those two roles are the most important in the opera.


Yes, and their relationship is the most interesting and important. in some ways, this opera tends to be disregarded because people focus i think overmuch on the romantic triangle part of the plot. to me, trov is like a gender swapped rigoletto, with the mother-son relationship swapped for the father-daughter relationship. similar plot mechanics too--the parent's love leading them to actions that result in the deaths of their beloved children.


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## annaw

howlingfantods said:


> Yes, and their relationship is the most interesting and important. in some ways, this opera tends to be disregarded because people focus i think overmuch on the romantic triangle part of the plot. to me, trov is like a gender swapped rigoletto, with the mother-son relationship swapped for the father-daughter relationship. similar plot mechanics too--the parent's love leading them to actions that result in the deaths of their beloved children.


Doesn't Azucena plot to kill Manrico though? The first part of the opera she tries to get Manrico kill di Luna but understands that that's not going to happen. Then the second part of the opera she's trying to get di Luna kill Manrico which succeeds because Manrico... uh... doesn't escape. Maybe I'm reading into the plot more than I'm supposed to. After all, I recall Karajan saying something like (rephrased) "no one understands what's actually going on in that opera, I don't and the singers don't" :lol:. (He then went on explaining that he understood the opera through Jungian psychoanalysis though...)


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## Tsaraslondon

The Conte said:


> I usually prefer Karajan over Votto, but on this occasion Votto has more fire, it being a live performance and that's very important in what is one of Verdi's most melodramatic works.
> 
> N.


This is one of those rare occasions when we disagree. I hear plenty of fire in Karajan's studio version, here coupled to fantastic precision and detail. I honestly think it one of his greatest studio opera recordings. To my ears, Votto is, as he always is, workmanlike and safe; not bad, just not terribly interesting.


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## howlingfantods

annaw said:


> Doesn't Azucena plot to kill Manrico though? The first part of the opera she tries to get Manrico kill di Luna but understands that that's not going to happen. Then the second part of the opera she's trying to get di Luna kill Manrico which succeeds because Manrico... uh... doesn't escape. Maybe I'm reading into the plot more than I'm supposed to.


that's a reading of the opera that has never even occurred to me before. i'm not sure she's even trying to get manrico to kill di luna except in the sense that they're captains of opposing armies fighting a war for the throne so of course they are mortal enemies. of course she does want di luna dead as revenge for her mother, and she rebukes manrico for not killing him at their duel when he had di luna defenseless, but it's as much concern for manrico's well being as desire for revenge.

and i don't think there's anything in the opera that supports a theory that she's trying to get di luna to kill manrico--she tries to stop di luna when she wakes from her sleep and sees manrico is gone. i think we are supposed to take manrico and azucena's duet longing to go back to the mountains in peace together as utterly sincere.


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## Granate

200 years before Furry logic, there was... Trovatore logic.

The more I listen to the opera, the better I understand the musical intentions of Verdi to portray the drama and the climaxes, especially liking the whole first and fourth acts.

The Moscow Scala performance with Bergonzi has helped me to enjoy his darkest and most maniac vocal performance applied to Manrico, a kind of man me and many people would consider today as toxic masculinity. Tucci is again a great soprano for Leonora, more than serviceable. A young Cappuccilli achieves an edgy Luna and Simionato swings as Azucena from average to greatness.

My favourite Corelli performance is the Opera Di Roma Tour in Berlin, but as I reviewed many weeks ago, the Luna and Azucena are dimmer and more boring than one would expect. His Manrico is probably too perfect to appreciate. In the extra dramatic edge, it was Bergonzi who surprised me rather than Corelli.

This doesn't prevent me from being perplexed with the Scala Karajan recording.

[HR][/HR]

Next up is dunnowhichverismocomposer's Pagliacci. I just listened to Karajan's Scala recording many years ago. I would like to explore it in the future.


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## The Conte

I can't see how Azucena tries to get Di Luna to kill Manrico (although is the idea that she lets herself get captured by Di Luna so she can be used as bait?) From the libretto Azucena seems more like a passive agent awaiting her fate, rather than one that has any sort of control over events. One could question her assertion that she is near Di Luna's camp in act three to look for Manrico and the opera raises a number of questions. What was Azucena's mother doing near Garzia (the present Di Luna's brother), casting a horoscope or a spell? How compos mentis is Azucena? She seems to be suffering from the trauma of her mother's death, but how much of what she tells Manrico is confusion and how much does she actively want revenge? She seems more like a fatalist to me that instinctively feels that the Di Lunas will get their comeuppance at some point and all she has to do is wait, rather than someone who is actively steering the drama.

N.


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## annaw

The Conte said:


> I can't see how Azucena tries to get Di Luna to kill Manrico (*although is the idea that she lets herself get captured by Di Luna so she can be used as bait?*) From the libretto Azucena seems more like a passive agent awaiting her fate, rather than one that has any sort of control over events. One could question her assertion that she is near Di Luna's camp in act three to look for Manrico and the opera raises a number of questions. What was Azucena's mother doing near Garzia (the present Di Luna's brother), casting a horoscope or a spell? How compos mentis is Azucena? She seems to be suffering from the trauma of her mother's death, but how much of what she tells Manrico is confusion and how much does she actively want revenge? She seems more like a fatalist to me that instinctively feels that the Di Lunas will get their comeuppance at some point and all she has to do is wait, rather than someone who is actively steering the drama.
> 
> N.


Yes, that's the impression I've had. There's literally no reason why she should wander around there. I think it's the ending that has given me such feeling though. Depending on the singer, some Azucenas tend to be triumphant rather than sad. "Sei vendicata, o madre!" - the death of one brother seemed to be necessary for avenging her mother's death. But as I said, I might be reading something into the opera I'm not supposed to .

That's why I feel she tried to get Manrico kill Di Luna though:

Ah, if fate should drive you
to fight with that wretch again,
then follow, my son, like a God,
follow then what I tell you to do:
Strike, plunge up to its hilt
that blade in the wicked man's heart!


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## The Conte

annaw said:


> Yes, that's the impression I've had. There's literally no reason why she should wander around there. I think it's the ending that has given me such feeling though. Depending on the singer, some Azucenas tend to be triumphant rather than sad. "Sei vendicata, o madre!" - the death of one brother seemed to be necessary for avenging her mother's death. But as I said, I might be reading something into the opera I'm not supposed to .
> 
> That's why I feel she tried to get Manrico kill Di Luna though:
> 
> Ah, if fate should drive you
> to fight with that wretch again,
> then follow, my son, like a God,
> follow then what I tell you to do:
> Strike, plunge up to its hilt
> that blade in the wicked man's heart!


This works as a theory and I quite like it. One of the problems of Trovatore is that we never find out who is telling the truth, it's very much he said vs. she said. (See my question about what Azucena's mother was doing by the baby above.) The key question here is whether Azucena is telling the truth about looking for Manrico when she is spotted near Di Luna's camp. That explains why she has left her Biscay mountains, but why is she rooting around Di Luna's camp? She possibly thinks Manrico will turn up there sooner or later. Her story seems equally plausible and not quite at the same time!

The other reading of the character is that she has an intuition that she will be avenged and so she only has to wait for it to happen. Whether she has been the active agent for bringing it about or she is patiently awaiting for the inevitable I think it makes complete sense for her to be jubilant at the end of the opera when fate delivers its judgement.

N.


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## annaw

The Conte said:


> This works as a theory and I quite like it. One of the problems of Trovatore is that we never find out who is telling the truth, it's very much he said vs. she said. (See my question about what Azucena's mother was doing by the baby above.) The key question here is whether Azucena is telling the truth about looking for Manrico when she is spotted near Di Luna's camp. That explains why she has left her Biscay mountains, but why is she rooting around Di Luna's camp? She possibly thinks Manrico will turn up there sooner or later. Her story seems equally plausible and not quite at the same time!
> 
> The other reading of the character is that she has an intuition that she will be avenged and so she only has to wait for it to happen. Whether she has been the active agent for bringing it about or she is patiently awaiting for the inevitable I think it makes complete sense for her to be jubilant at the end of the opera when fate delivers its judgement.
> 
> N.


Yes, I haven't thought about the second interpretation though it seems plausible as well! As you say, it's a sort of word against word type of plot where we have no idea who's telling the truth and who in the classic sense is good and who's bad. As you know, I feel somewhat sympathetic towards Di Luna, and thus my plot interpretation might be somewhat biased. I wonder how didn't Manrico realise that he's Di Luna's brother though....


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## Granate

annaw said:


> I wonder how didn't Manrico realise that he's Di Luna's brother though....


Watching the endings of Act I and Act II like: affected Manrico about to end Luna, and Oh, no, something invisible is making him regret it, what could it be? This is one of those works where, like DavidA, I have to turn the suspension of disbelief on.

I find Piave's Ernani much more credible and relatable.






About Azucena's supposed plot, I've always wondered if, in this scene, Azucena would be the ball, Susie is Manrico, and the car is Luna, or Susie is Luna and the car is Manrico's death.


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## annaw

Granate said:


> Watching the endings of Act I and Act II like: affected Manrico about to end Luna, and Oh, no, something invisible is making him regret it, what could it be? This is one of those works where, like DavidA, I have to turn the suspension of disbelief on.
> 
> I find Piave's Ernani much more credible and relatable.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> About Azucena's supposed plot, I've always wondered if, in this scene, Azucena would be the ball, Susie is Manrico, and the car is Luna, or Susie is Luna and the car is Manrico's death.


Oh my goodness, that video is like _Il Trovatore_'s plot in a nutshell :lol: !


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## The Conte

annaw said:


> Yes, I haven't thought about the second interpretation though it seems plausible as well! As you say, it's a sort of word against word type of plot where we have no idea who's telling the truth and who in the classic sense is good and who's bad. As you know, I feel somewhat sympathetic towards Di Luna, and thus my plot interpretation might be somewhat biased. I wonder how didn't Manrico realise that he's Di Luna's brother though....


Quite! There are far too many Chekhov's guns pointing to the fact in the plot that the end doesn't quite have the shock factor that it could have. (Perhaps the intention is that the audience works it out?) Firstly Ferrando tells us that the old Di Luna had an intuition that his son hadn't in fact died. Then Azucena pretty much gives the game away (only to go back on it), plus you have Manrico's strange act of mercy on his rival. Manrico and Di Luna are obviously the last to know...

N.


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## Granate

Simon Boccanegra is one of my favourite Verdi Operas, and this recording, even more than the famous Abbado in La Scala, gets my five points. A surprising tour de force. There are three performances of this production, being the August 9th premiere my favourite. Because the Spotify album of this performance is all messed up, I created a playlist with the tracks in due order.

I also incredibly like the studio recording with Christoff, VDLA and Gobbi, if only the Adorno had a first-rate voice to balance everything. I'm also really happy with the conducting of this set surprisingly. Legend says it was recorded in stereo but only mono copies have survived to digital era.


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## Tsaraslondon

Reflections on some of my recent choices.

*Pagliacci* is not a favourite of mine. Went for the Serafin because of the unbeatable combination of Callas and Gobbi. Callas, singing an uncharacteristic role that she never sang on stage, is a far more interesting Nedda than we usually hear and Gobbi is brilliantly malevolent as her nemesis. Panerai as Silvio and Monti as Beppe are luxury casting indeed and Serafin conducts with his usual understanding of the needs of the work. A shade light-voiced for the role, Di Stefano is a very effective Canio, singing brilliantly off the words, his diction, as usual, exemplary. I like the Zeffirelli film too, which seems to elaborate on the subtext hinted at in the Callas recording; a young woman trapped in a loveless, childless marriage to a man much older than herself. Stratas and Domingo are both excellent in it.

For *Barbiere* I still enjoy most of all the Callas/Gobbi/Galliera recording. I know it's not complete and the edition used wouldn't bear scrutiny today, but the performance is infectiously high spirited in a way we rarely hear nowadays. For all that it was recorded in the studio, it has the feel of a live performance and the whole cast seem to be enjoying themselves immensely. Brilliantly cast too, right down to Gabriela Carturan's cameo as Berta.

When it comes to *Boccanegra*, the Abbado is rightly considered a classic. Orchestrally and sonically it is superb and the cast could hardly be bettered, with Cappuccilli giving what I think is his finest performance on disc. Ghiaurov, Freni and Carreras are all at the top of their game and what luxury to have Van Dam as Paulo. That said, I would not want to be without the performances of Gobbi, Christoff and Victoria De Los Angeles on the Santini, even if sound and conducting cannot really compete with the Abbado.


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## howlingfantods

picking a pagliacci because of the nedda and tonio makes about as much sense to me as picking a traviata based on the alfredo and germont. 

perhaps not caring about the lead character or restricting yourself to a recording choice with a frankly terrible canio because of your strong soprano preference leads into why you don't care for the opera that much? i'd dislike pagliacci if i only listened to the serafin too.


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## Tsaraslondon

howlingfantods said:


> picking a pagliacci because of the nedda and tonio makes about as much sense to me as picking a traviata based on the alfredo and germont.
> 
> perhaps not caring about the lead character or restricting yourself to a recording choice with a frankly terrible canio because of your strong soprano preference leads into why you don't care for the opera that much? i'd dislike pagliacci if i only listened to the serafin too.


You do love to be combative, don't you?

As it happens I don't think Di Stefano is terrible, far from it. I've listened to plenty of other recordings and seen the opera on stage. It's just not a favourite opera of mine. It has nothing to do with who's singing it. The Serafin has an excellent cast _all round_, even down to Monti's Beppe. I might have my doubts about his Elvino (which he recorded in the studio with both Callas and Sutherland) he amounts to luxury casting as Beppe.

In any case, is Canio the lead character? The title is *Pagliacci*, as in clowns plural and it could be argued that Tonio, who opens (and should close) the opera is equally as important. As for Canio himself, I much prefer a tenor who doesn't shy away from the fact that he is a bit of a bully. I don't see him as some misunderstood, tragic hero figure. Di Stefano sounds as if he could be a bit violent at home, which I think is right. What a shame Vickers never recorded it.


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## howlingfantods

Tsaraslondon said:


> In any case, is Canio the lead character? The title is *Pagliacci*, as in clowns plural and it could be argued that Tonio, who opens (and should close) the opera is equally as important.


I'll quote an expert, who said "Pagliacci is really the tenor's opera, and one can imagine the role would have held little interest for (Callas) on stage"

https://www.talkclassical.com/33051-new-maria-callas-box-55.html#post811641


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## The Conte

As far as Pagliacci is concerned, I find the most interesting character is Tonio and Gobbi's interpretation of that role was so individual and remarkable, I find it difficult to recommend others in that role. Fortunately he is in two superb studio recordings, the Serafin with Callas and Di Stefano (a wonderful trio for the opera) and with my favourite Canio, Corelli. Therefore I choose both of those. There is also the Bjorling recording with Merrill and De los Angeles, which would come third in my rankings. However, the sound lets it down and Gobbi, Corelli and Callas (although not in the same recording) easily surpass the cast in the Cellini set. Often recordings have to be chosen in terms of which has the most impressive cast _overall_ and that can be difficult. It would all be much easier if we could mix and match singers to produce something akin to Immortal Performance's Dream Ring.

N.


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## Tsaraslondon

howlingfantods said:


> I'll quote an expert, who said "Pagliacci is really the tenor's opera, and one can imagine the role would have held little interest for (Callas) on stage"
> 
> https://www.talkclassical.com/33051-new-maria-callas-box-55.html#post811641


Well even experts (thank you for the compliment, by the way) can change their minds or see things from a different perspective and, _on reflection_, I'd say Tonio is of equal importance and Gobbi is superb. Fortunately I happen to also like the other singers on the Serafin recording, which is why it remains my first choice.

I'm guessing you were suggesting I chose it because Callas is the Nedda. Partly true, no doubt, as she makes more of Nedda than most, but she is not the only reason. I honestly think the Serafin is very hard to beat.


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## Tsaraslondon

I did a little more thinking about the assertion, made once by myself admittedly, that *Pagliacci* is a tenor vehicle and concluded that it doesn't really stand up. The title is _Clowns_ plural and it seems to me that the characters of Tonio and Nedda are equally important. Maybe our perception is coloured by the fact that Canio gets the one big hit aria from the opera.

The opera starts with a long introductory aria by Tonio. This is followed by the first scene, comprising two choruses and two short arias for Canio. The second scene starts with Nedda's aria followed by two duets for Nedda, one with Tonio and one with Silvio and another short scene between Tonio and Nedda, followed by one between Canio and Nedda. From the beginning of Nedda's aria to the beginning of Canio's _Vesti la giubba_ lasts over twenty minutes, quite the longest section in the score.A short scene leads into Canio's famous _Vesti la giubba_ (also quite short).

After the intermezzo, the second act starts with another chorus. We then have the "play within a play" between Beppe as Arlecchino, Nedda as Colombina and Tonio as Taddeo before Canio (as Pagliaccio) makes his entrance. Admittedly from there to the end (less than ten minutes) the opera belongs to Canio, but it is (or should be) Tonio who has the last line, and the last laugh. It strikes me that it is more of an ensemble piece than a tenor vehicle. No matter how good the tenor, if the rest of the cast is below par the opera won't survive.

I shouldn't really have to defend my choice of the Serafin recordng as a first choice, but seeing as Howlingfantods appears to be suggesting I chose it just because Callas is the Nedda, let me disabuse him. First off I competely disagree with his assertion that Di Stefano is "frankly terrible". There are others I might prefer in the role, though really only Corelli springs to mind. Vickers would no doubt be even better but he didn't record it, though it was in his repertoire. Di Stefano is, _in my opinion_, a very creditable Canio and furthermore is surrounded by one of the best all round casts on disc, especially Gobbi's Tonio, which manages to be both malevolent and pathetic. Callas is also superb, her Nedda a far cry from the soubrettishly minxish Neddas usually cast in the role. I doubt the central second scene of act one, which comprises Nedda's arias and her two duets (with Tonio and Silvio) has ever been better done, and here one should mention Panerai who is a suitably ardent Silvio, making their love duet the erotic thing it should be. To make our cup runneth over, we have Nicola Monti, who sings Elvino on both Callas's and Sutherlands first recording of *La Sonnambula* as a near perfect Beppe. Serafin conducts the work as well as anyone and better than many. If only it had been stereo.

In a perfect world, maybe the Canio would have been Corelli, but I'll take Di Stefano for the all round excellence of the rest of his cast.

Choosing a recording of *La Traviata* based on the excellence of its Alfredo or Germont, or *Norma* based on a preference for its Adalgisa or Pollione might seem eccentric. Choosing a recording of *Pagliacci* based on the excellence of the whole cast is not.


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## howlingfantods

no offense, but seems to me like you come up with whatever arguments are necessary to justify why the Callas recording is the best, in every situation where Callas has recorded something. Macbeth is really about Lady Macbeth notwithstanding the title because she has the most memorable arias so it doesn't matter than outside of Callas, that recording of Macbeth is a total dud, Pagliacci is really about Tonio despite Canio having all the memorable parts and the title is "Clowns" not "Canio", and look how good Gobbi and the entire cast (meaning Callas) is. 

not that I have a problem with folks having favorites and choosing to always pick whatever record di stefano is in, or whatever record carreras is in, or whatever. but this approach of arguing from conclusions strike me as a lot of wasted effort. Why not just say "I like Callas enough to vote for her no matter how good or bad her surroundings"? when others say things along these lines, I always think it's cute and sweet that people love an individual artist enough to be that committed, but when you spin out these elaborate arguments that try to justify how your aesthetic rules somehow perfectly aligns to always liking Callas's records, it just seems sort of disingenuous to me.


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## Woodduck

howlingfantods said:


> no offense, but seems to me like you come up with whatever arguments are necessary to justify why the Callas recording is the best, in every situation where Callas has recorded something. Macbeth is really about Lady Macbeth notwithstanding the title because she has the most memorable arias so it doesn't matter than outside of Callas, that recording of Macbeth is a total dud, Pagliacci is really about Tonio despite Canio having all the memorable parts and the title is "Clowns" not "Canio", and look how good Gobbi and the entire cast (meaning Callas) is.
> 
> not that I have a problem with folks having favorites and choosing to always pick whatever record di stefano is in, or whatever record carreras is in, or whatever. but this approach of arguing from conclusions strike me as a lot of wasted effort. Why not just say "I like Callas enough to vote for her no matter how good or bad her surroundings"? when others say things along these lines, I always think it's cute and sweet that people love an individual artist enough to be that committed, but when you spin out these elaborate arguments that try to justify how your aesthetic rules somehow perfectly aligns to always liking Callas's records, it just seems sort of disingenuous to me.


This is really insulting. If someone takes the time and trouble to state in a thoughtful manner a number of legitimate reasons for favoring a recording, no one has any business accusing him of dishonesty.

I'm not qualified to offer a favorite _Pagliacci_ here for the simple reason that I haven't listened to most of the available recordings. But I did find the EMI/Serafin to be a very strong performance with a great ensemble cast. I can't agree that Di Stefano is "terrible," even if he lacks the ideal weight; he's vocally solid, and dramatically sincere and involved. We would be fortunate to have him around to sing Canio today. It's been a good while since my last listen, but I recall the rest of the singers as superb in their parts, and thanks to them and Serafin the drama gets its full due.

You may be scornful of Tsaraslondon's tendency to prefer recordings featuring Callas in leading roles, but Callas WAS Callas, and her roles WERE leading roles, and she WAS capable of galvanizing performances in which she took part, turning even otherwise routine productions into major artistic events. Fortunately many of her recordings also feature some of the other major singers of the time, singers (such as Gobbi, Di Stefano, Barbieri and Panerai) who may be equaled or sometimes surpassed by those on other recordings, but who gave of their best in productions where Callas was setting a high artistic standard, perhaps in part _because_ she was. I see nothing odd in preferring, for example, her recordings of _Lucia di Lammermoor, I Puritani, Madama Butterfly, Medea, Norma, Macbeth, Carmen,_ or _Tosca,_ whether all the singers involved are ideal or not. And in both _Cavalleria Rusticana_ and _Pagliacci_ under Serafin, no apologies are necessary for any of the participants. I found the performances first-class, and Tsaraslondon's appraisals perfectly apt.


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## Granate

Hello, It is time to chat about our favourite Verdi Macbeth recordings and it's too bad I don't have enough time to talk about the great achievements of the Muti studio recording or the Vittorio Gui Florence performance in 1951 with Astrid Varnay as the star



















And this last one was a gripping performance. Amazing Sound quality. Metternich is gripping. Callas might be your favourite singer but Varnay (in Italian too) and Mödl (just in German) would truly challenge her status of owner of the role.

If you are reading this too, Wooduck, just to let you know that I'd love to reply to your question about "Spanish" Verdi operas, but I'm really busy this month to develop my argument. I'll try to do it in August.


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## Tsaraslondon

A word about the sound of the De Sabata *Macbeth*. The only good thing about the EMI release is that it came with full libretto and notes. Sonically it is just appalling. The Myto and Warner releases are in a different class altogether.

Though the opera, and the play, are called *Macbeth*, the drama is propelled by Lady Macbeth and I make no apologies for preferring performances with a strong Lady, hence my preference for Callas and Verrett. De Sabata is also another reason to commend the 1952 La Scala performance, his conception of the score symphonic in scope, gripping in the drama. Mascherini is, I suppose, the weak link in the cast, but he is at least adequate, and sometimes more than that. No apologies need to be made for Tajo and Penno. This is a thrilling performance and deserves its reputation.

For a studio performance I continue to prefer Abbado. Verrett is in better voice here than in her second recording and her Lady Macbeth is almost the equal of Callas. Cappuccilli, if less inspired than he was in Abbado's *Simon Boccanegra*, is still a superb Macbeth, and Ghiaurov and Domingo are luxury casting as Banquo and MacDuff.


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## The Conte

When it comes to Macbeth I'm in the 'needs a superb Macbeth, _then_ a superb Lady' camp. Whilst Callas is my favourite Lady, her Macbeth, Mascherini presents the character as a total enigma. I want to hear the complex thoughts of this study in a mental breakdown that leads to existential despair. Usually I would turn to Gobbi for Verdi baritone roles, but his recording is a live one that catches him on an off night with Amy Shuard, who isn't bad as the Lady, but isn't exceptional either. I find Cappuccilli technically accomplished and stylish, but there's a lack of characterisation in his interpretation. I have listened to the Abbado a number of times as it is so well regarded, but I've been bored every time and have to listen to a bit of the Muti to get me back in the mood.

Milnes is probably my favourite Macbeth (best heard live with Christa Ludwig's exciting Lady), but on some days I prefer Fischer Dieskau. I understand that some will find his version inauthentic, but how Italianate is Verdi's approach to this dark tale? Is there not something akin to Schubert's lyricism and Sturm und Drang drama? Others will complain that Fischer Dieskau's approach is overly intellectual, with too much focus on colouring particular parts of the text and the delivery of the words, rather than a more natural, lyrical approach. I can see what they are talking about, yet, Fischer Dieskau _does_ sound desperate and neurotic and perhaps that fulfills Verdi's writing better than a more naturally italianate vocal line. (After all he famously wanted an ugly voice for his Lady.) That brings us to Souliotis in serious vocal decline in the same set (I believe this was her last studio recording). Her lack of a fully supported, coordinated sound makes for difficult listening, but she uses the many flaws in her singing to miraculous dramatic effect. She could no longer sing a decent Norma or Anna Bolena at this point and this is probably the only role that would have suited her with her vocal problems. If Ghiaurov and Domingo are luxury casting, then pay extra to upgrade to super luxury with Ghiaurov and Pavarotti. It's an excellent set all round.

I've already mentioned Milnes coupled with Ludwig and I also like the Muti with him and Cossotto (although she is more than acceptable she isn't as great as the singers I've already mentioned). If I were to rank the sets I have in order, it would be as follows:

1) Gardelli (Fischer Dieskau/Souliotis) All round pretty much perfect for me.
2) Bohm (Milnes/Ludwig) Another superb pairing of the two main roles.
3) De Sabata (Mascherini/Callas) The best Lady on disc, but with one of the worst Macbeths
4) Muti (Milnes/Cossotto) Very much a runners up set and perhaps its main feature is Muti's excitingly dramatic conducting (even if it has a touch of vulgarity in the process).

Others:
Molinari Prandelli (Gobbi/Shuard) Of interest to Gobbi fans, but both the principals in the pairing are disappointing.
Matheson (Glossop/Hunter) Worth hearing the original version of the opera, but wouldn't be a contender if it were the usual revised version.

N.


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## Tsaraslondon

The Conte said:


> When it comes to Macbeth I'm in the 'needs a superb Macbeth, _then_ a superb Lady' camp. Whilst Callas is my favourite Lady, her Macbeth, Mascherini presents the character as a total enigma. I want to hear the complex thoughts of this study in a mental breakdown that leads to existential despair. Usually I would turn to Gobbi for Verdi baritone roles, but his recording is a live one that catches him on an off night with Amy Shuard, who isn't bad as the Lady, but isn't exceptional either. I find Cappuccilli technically accomplished and stylish, but there's a lack of characterisation in his interpretation. I have listened to the Abbado a number of times as it is so well regarded, but I've been bored every time and have to listen to a bit of the Muti to get me back in the mood.
> 
> Milnes is probably my favourite Macbeth (best heard live with Christa Ludwig's exciting Lady), but on some days I prefer Fischer Dieskau. I understand that some will find his version inauthentic, but how Italianate is Verdi's approach to this dark tale? Is there not something akin to Schubert's lyricism and Sturm und Drang drama? Others will complain that Fischer Dieskau's approach is overly intellectual, with too much focus on colouring particular parts of the text and the delivery of the words, rather than a more natural, lyrical approach. I can see what they are talking about, yet, Fischer Dieskau _does_ sound desperate and neurotic and perhaps that fulfills Verdi's writing better than a more naturally italianate vocal line. (After all he famously wanted an ugly voice for his Lady.) That brings us to Souliotis in serious vocal decline in the same set (I believe this was her last studio recording). Her lack of a fully supported, coordinated sound makes for difficult listening, but she uses the many flaws in her singing to miraculous dramatic effect. She could no longer sing a decent Norma or Anna Bolena at this point and this is probably the only role that would have suited her with her vocal problems. If Ghiaurov and Domingo are luxury casting, then pay extra to upgrade to super luxury with Ghiaurov and Pavarotti. It's an excellent set all round.
> 
> I've already mentioned Milnes coupled with Ludwig and I also like the Muti with him and Cossotto (although she is more than acceptable she isn't as great as the singers I've already mentioned). If I were to rank the sets I have in order, it would be as follows:
> 
> 1) Gardelli (Fischer Dieskau/Souliotis) All round pretty much perfect for me.
> 2) Bohm (Milnes/Ludwig) Another superb pairing of the two main roles.
> 3) De Sabata (Mascherini/Callas) The best Lady on disc, but with one of the worst Macbeths
> 4) Muti (Milnes/Cossotto) Very much a runners up set and perhaps its main feature is Muti's excitingly dramatic conducting (even if it has a touch of vulgarity in the process).
> 
> Others:
> Molinari Prandelli (Gobbi/Shuard) Of interest to Gobbi fans, but both the principals in the pairing are disappointing.
> Matheson (Glossop/Hunter) Worth hearing the original version of the opera, but wouldn't be a contender if it were the usual revised version.
> 
> N.


I think we've had this discussion before, and this is one of those rare occasions when we disagree. I used to have the Gardelli on LP. I bought it because I liked Souliotis and couldn't believe that her voice would have deteriorated as much as people said it had. I was wrong. You only have to hear her earlier recital recording of _Vieni, t'affretta_ to hear the disintegration. I am aware of course of Verdi's requirements for the role but all I could hear was a voice in big trouble. Mind you she is a paragon compared to Nadja Michael, who plays Lady Macbeth on the most recent recording by Fabio Biondi. Have you heard it?

Fischer-Dieskau I liked a lot more and I do take your point, but ultimately I prefer a more Italianate voice. Illogical I know, as I have no problem with Schwarzkopf as Alice or in the Requiem. Conducting and the rest of the cast are excellent, though Gardelli is not so revelatory as De Sabata.

I've also always preferred the Abbado to the Muti too, if only by a whisker. They both came out around the same time, but Verrett's much more interesting Lady tips the balance in Abbado's favour, for me anyway.


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## Tsaraslondon

For those who say I only chose the Prêtre recording of *Carmen* because of Callas, I'd say, absolutely. I find her Carmen a characterisation of endless fascination, which never seems quite the same from one listen to another. It challenged preconceptions of what or who Carmen is and no doubt did so even more when the set was first released back in 1964.

I suppose I should care more about the fact that it uses the now discredited version with the Guiraud recitatives replacing the spoken dialogue, but I'm less concerned with textual matters than some and I really don't mind the recitatives. In any case, I'd much prefer that to having actors speaking the dialogue in a totally different acoustic, as they do on Karajan's second recording.

Callas had apparently been Beecham's first choice for the role of Carmen when he came to record the opera five years earlier. According to Walter Legge,



> One morning in the fifties T.B. telephoned me and began rather pompously: "I am informed that you are the only person on whose musical judgement a certain Madame Callas relies implicitly. I am recording Carmen in Paris next year for EMI. Do you believe the lady could sing the title role to my satisfaction? And if so, will she place at my disposal the time I request for rehearsals and recording?" I told him that if she agreed to do it he would have every reason to be satisfied. I talked over the project with her, stressing that even for her there was an added nimbus of recording with Beecham. She declined with more than habitual grace: "I don't think my French is good enough yet and I won't take the risk fo some damn' fool critic saying that I've lost my top - which I haven't - and that now I'm only a mezzo."


 _On and Off the Record, A Memoir of Walter Legge_

We can only imagine what a Callas/Beecham *Carmen* would have been like and there is no denying that Callas's voice was in better shape back in 1959 when the Beecham set was recorded. I do like the Beecham recording, but, love De Los Angeles as I do, I just can't bellieve that this Carmen would ever have pulled a knife on a fellow worker. As usual, she is wonderfully musical, seductively coquettish but just not dangerous, and danger is exactly what you get from Callas's Carmen. _Dangereuse et belle_, as Micaëla calls her.

Back in the 1960s, people still tried to play down Carmen's predatory nature, pointing out that, unlike in the book, her one transgression was to leave Don José for Escamillo, but really this makes no sense whatsoever. She is, as Callas once said in interview, a sort of female Don Giovanni, using sex as a way to exert her power over men. She refuses to be subugated to any one man and rather than give up her freedom she stares death in the face and so meets her end at the hands of a violently possessive man who would rather see her die than in the arms of another. If he'd been like any of her other lovers, no doubt she'd have lived to tell the tale. Was Carmen ever in love with Don José? I doubt it. He was a challenge, nothing more, and she tires of him the minute she has him in her thrall. If Zuniga hadn't come back when he did, she'd have sent him packing back to the barracks and that would have been the end of that.

Like everything she did, Callas's Carmen is all of a piece, with no obvious high spots and she pays as much attention to a simple aside, like her ironic only half serious avowal of love for José (_Je suis amouresue ... Amoureuse à perdre l'esprit_) as she does to the Habanéra, for instance. There are some sour top notes, to be sure, but the voice was entirely apt for the role at this stage in her career.

There are other reasons to enjoy this recording, though. It is a mostly French affair, with a French orchestra, chorus, conductor and supporting cast. Prêtre's conducting is swift, fleet, maybe lacking a little of Beecham's elgance and flair, but nonetheless very effective. The Micaëla of Andréa Guiot is very good indeed, no wilting milksop, but a plucky young woman who holds her own with the soldiers in the first act with barely suppressed amusement. Escamillo is perhaps the least well drawn of the principal characters. After all his main function is to propel the drama and provide some local colour. Robert Massard seems fine to me as do the rest of the cast.

Many have complained that Gedda is too lightweight for this Carmen, and I do find myself wondering about, say, a Callas/Vickers coupling. That said, Vickers wasn't quite as comfortable with the French language as Gedda, whose diction is exemplary. In any case, I think Gedda's José works well in context. He is certainly more forceful here than he is in the Beecham recording and rises well to the challenge of the final duet where he brilliantly conveys José's manic passion, a man who has sunk so low he no longer cares what will happen to him.

Of the other *Carmen* recordings I know, the Beecham would probably be my second choice, even if De Los Angeles doesn't quite fulfil my idea of the central role. Troyanos on the Solti and Berganza on the Abbado are both a little unmemorable, a little anonymous; Baltsa on the second Karajan certainly sounds dangerous but she rather overdoes it at the expense of any charm. I quite like Price's unconventional Carmen on Karajan's first recording, but she is saddled with Corelli's execrable French and his lack of French style. Vickers's French isn't much better, to be honest, though his sense of style is better, but his Carmen, Grace Bumbry, is also rather dull and penny plain. On the other hand, I have enjoyed both Domingo's and Carreras's José, but not the compete recordings they are on. I haven't heard the Gheorghiu/Alagna recording.

If anyone is interested, there is a fuller review of the Callas *Carmen* on my blog https://tsaraslondon.wordpress.com/2017/01/06/the-callas-carmen/.


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## Granate

I remember doing my Carmen challenge. One of the most exhausting I have ever had, only to relisten to the Pretre recording at the end and accepting that I owned the best Carmen from the very beginning. I agree that her performance is unparallelled but I would also say that Gedda's Don José sounds much stronger in the Pretre recording than the Beecham one. So, more points to the favourite. 

That doesn't prevent me from... opening the discussion to other great historical Carmens even if I don't think they even grasp what Callas did in those sessions. I'm thinking about Simionato, Rise Stevens, Callas allumni Agnes Baltsa, Leontyne Price or Marilyn Horne.

I hold a lot of interest in the Bernstein recording, and also the Reiner in Mono. Orfeo recently released a Karajan Salzburg Carmen with Bumbry and Vickers, but I was really disappointed and bored about the playing and singing.

My favourite Domingo Don José is the Kleiber performance taped in the Wiener Staatsoper. I still haven't fully listened to the Maazel recording for the film.


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## Woodduck

Tsaraslondon said:


> For those who say I only chose the Prêtre recording of *Carmen* because of Callas, I'd say, absolutely. I find her Carmen a characterisation of endless fascination, which never seems quite the same from one listen to another. It challenged preconceptions of what or who Carmen is and no doubt did so even more when the set was first released back in 1964.


During my first year in college - 1967, I believe - I was given the privilege of recommending recordings for the music department's library, and I suggested, among other operas, the Callas/Pretre _Carmen_ and the Callas/De Sabata _Tosca,_ having heard neither of them but basing my recommendations on previous hearings of a few Callas recordings and on reviews in the then popular High Fidelity and Stereo Review magazines. Both recordings fulfilled expectations, and I eagerly shared listening sessions with other students. I'm really not sure whether I listened again to the _Carmen_ in my post-college years until just a few years ago - that would constitute a hiatus of at least forty years - but when I did I was absolutely floored by the sheer inventiveness of Callas's characterization. Line after line of music and text emerged freshly illuminated through inflections of phrasing and vocal color which sounded as natural as they were original.

It's possible to disagree with Callas's conception of Carmen; she projects an intelligence, even a sophistication, that some might find a bit too cerebral and calculated, and they might prefer a more elemental, spontaneous, or lighthearted gypsy girl. The role certainly accommodates more than one approach. But the Callas Carmen is unique and undeniably potent, and as a creative response to text and music it must surely leave all others in the dust. What floors me is the extraordinary fact that she had never sung the role before, and never sang it again, claiming that she didn't identify with a woman who uses men. Of course she also said that she didn't care for the role of Tosca, and yet managed to give us a portrayal against which all others since are measured.

_Carmen_ isn't a favorite opera of mine; in spirit it occupies a peculiar territory between operetta and tragedy, and the fate of its protagonists doesn't move me at all. But whatever it is, it's unquestionably superb music, and as she did with a number of operas in which I have only marginal interest, Callas makes Bizet's faux-Spanish entertainment something subtler and more fascinating for me than it seems intrinsically to be. Hers is the only recording of the work I'm likely ever to own, and the one I'd recommend, as I did half a century ago, that everyone have in their library.


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## The Conte

Granate said:


> I remember doing my Carmen challenge. One of the most exhausting I have ever had, only to relisten to the Pretre recording at the end and accepting that I owned the best Carmen from the very beginning. I agree that her performance is unparallelled but I would also say that Gedda's Don José sounds much stronger in the Pretre recording than the Beecham one. So, more points to the favourite.
> 
> That doesn't prevent me from... opening the discussion to other great historical Carmens even if I don't think they even grasp what Callas did in those sessions. I'm thinking about Simionato, Rise Stevens, Callas allumni Agnes Baltsa, Leontyne Price or Marilyn Horne.
> 
> I hold a lot of interest in the Bernstein recording, and also the Reiner in Mono. Orfeo recently released a Karajan Salzburg Carmen with Bumbry and Vickers, but I was really disappointed and bored about the playing and singing.
> 
> My favourite Domingo Don José is the Kleiber performance taped in the Wiener Staatsoper. I still haven't fully listened to the Maazel recording for the film.


Some here may remember that I undertook a listening survey whilst studying the different versions of the opera (not a simple task). I came to the conclusion that the two different versions were almost two different operas and that is why I have split my votes for the CD versions. There are so many recordings of the opera, there are quite a few I like, despite it not being a favourite of mine. I prefer Corelli singing the role in Italian than in French, although it is a curiosity. De los Angeles, Simionato and Gheorghiu are other favourites in the title role.

I agree that Gedda is better in his second set, Callas is supreme in the international opera house version (with sung recitatives) and I really like Pretre's taut take on the work. For the Opera Comique version with dialogue and lighter in style (it's not in the score per se, but was the traditional performing style at the theatre the work was written for). Jobin couldn't be more different from Callas, her lighter mezzo voice is witty, frothy and very French. Carmen compared the role to Don Giovanni as mentioned above and Carmen could be termed a _drama giocoso_ (although Mozart considered Giovanni to be of the _buffa_ type). Both a serious or a lighter approach are appropriate and the mix of serious elements with lighter moments makes the work both a reference to earlier theatre and a precursor to 20th century lyric theatre.

N.


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## Granate

I haven't studied Bel Canto in depth yet, but Lucia di Lammermoor can count as the opera I've listened the most in a particular bunch of recordings. I often don't know whether to go for the Karajan in Berlin or the Serafin in Florence. Lately I've preferred Panerai's Enrico to Gobbi's. The stereo reference for me, so far, is the bonynge Covent Garden recording. I don't know if I should get it if it's so cheap now.

Is the new Warner release for the Berlin Lucia the best transfer? I remember listening to the performance when that edition had not come out.


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## Tsaraslondon

Granate said:


> Is the new Warner release for the Berlin Lucia the best transfer? I remember listening to the performance when that edition had not come out.


The Warner is very good indeed and a lot better than EMI's old effort. That said, I'm reliably informed that Divina is the best transfer. It's on my shopping list.


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## Tsaraslondon

I gave all my points to the Karajan Berlin recording because it's invariably the one I listen to when I want to listen to the opera. I do listen to Callas's studio recordings occasionally, even the second one, for which I still have a good deal of affection, as it was the recording that introduced me to the opera, but the Berlin performance is one of Callas's greatest nights in the theatre.

It's a great shame the La Scala performances of 1954 were not captured complete, because she was in even better voice for those. The sound on the bits we do have is pretty awful too.

I'm not really bothered with other versions, not even Sutherland, though if I were to choose one I'd go with the live Covent Garden performance of 1959 under Serafin.


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## The Conte

Granate said:


> I haven't studied Bel Canto in depth yet, but Lucia di Lammermoor can count as the opera I've listened the most in a particular bunch of recordings. I often don't know whether to go for the Karajan in Berlin or the Serafin in Florence. Lately I've preferred Panerai's Enrico to Gobbi's. The stereo reference for me, so far, is the bonynge Covent Garden recording. I don't know if I should get it if it's so cheap now.
> 
> Is the new Warner release for the Berlin Lucia the best transfer? I remember listening to the performance when that edition had not come out.


I prefer the Warner over the Divina, but many Divina fans disagree with me.

I too find it difficult to decide between the 1953 studio and the Berlin live Lucia. I went for the 53 this time round. All the recordings with Callas are drastically cut and so I need to choose a back up favourite and whilst the Bonynge is superbly cast in great sound, I find Studer more expressive than Sutherland and it's a reliable complete recording in stereo.

N.


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## vivalagentenuova

The 1939 Tansini _Lucia_ is a lovely record, with Malipiero displaying some true bel canto tenor singing. The balance between his warm, beautiful head voice and powerful chest voice is an absolute delight. It's a Gigli/Schipa sound, the and the last singer I can think of with it is Tagliavini. Giuseppe Manacchini as Enrico is a surprise. I had never heard of him, but he's truly excellent.

The first complete recording was 1929, with Mercedes Caspir (who is generally good, but occasionally a little shrill on top), the always great Enzo de Muro Lomanto, the underrated Enrico Molinari, and Salvatore Baccaloni. Quite a cast.

For more modern recordings, I probably like the Schippers, with Moffo, Bergonzi, Sereni, but I'm ambivalent about 2 out of 3 of those singers.


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## howlingfantods

ymmv but for me, the 1953 lucia is easily the most easily recommendable callas recording, even more so than her celebrated tosca.


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## The Conte

howlingfantods said:


> ymmv but for me, the 1953 lucia is easily the most easily recommendable callas recording, even more so than her celebrated tosca.


Controversial! However, I can see your point. You have the same trio of singers but with Serafin instead of De Sabata. I've said recently that the Rigoletto with the same four main artists is another 'better than the famous Tosca'.

N.


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## Granate

Ad then there's me who would like a double dose of caffeine for Tosca and would prefer the Covent Garden 1964, no matter how good the De Sabata is.

Can't anyone think about a DVD recording for Lucia? I'm about to request Rogerx to give their entire list of DVD recordings for the 200 operas.


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## The Conte

Granate said:


> Ad then there's me who would like a double dose of caffeine for Tosca and would prefer the Covent Garden 1964, no matter how good the De Sabata is.
> 
> Can't anyone think about a DVD recording for Lucia? I'm about to request Rogerx to give their entire list of DVD recordings for the 200 operas.


I am a huge fan of the 1964 Tosca as well, it's more electrically dramatic than the earlier studio recording and both Callas and Gobbi sing their parts with additional interpretative insight.

N.


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## vivalagentenuova

The only video performance I can recommend for _Lucia_ is only available on VHS from the the Bel Canto Society. It stars Nelly Corradi, Mario Filippeschi, Afro Poli, and Italo Tajo. It's also on YouTube.


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## Revitalized Classics

Tsaraslondon said:


> You do love to be combative, don't you?
> 
> As it happens I don't think Di Stefano is terrible, far from it. I've listened to plenty of other recordings and seen the opera on stage. It's just not a favourite opera of mine. It has nothing to do with who's singing it. The Serafin has an excellent cast _all round_, even down to Monti's Beppe. I might have my doubts about his Elvino (which he recorded in the studio with both Callas and Sutherland) he amounts to luxury casting as Beppe.
> 
> In any case, is Canio the lead character? The title is *Pagliacci*, as in clowns plural and it could be argued that Tonio, who opens (and should close) the opera is equally as important. As for Canio himself, I much prefer a tenor who doesn't shy away from the fact that he is a bit of a bully. I don't see him as some misunderstood, tragic hero figure. Di Stefano sounds as if he could be a bit violent at home, which I think is right. *What a shame Vickers never recorded it*.


As a reminder, Vickers recorded a film version with Karajan which might be of interest. 











Syncronization is not great, being mimed, but the soundtrack compares well with the Bergonzi/Carlyle/Taddei version.


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## Revitalized Classics

Granate said:


> Ad then there's me who would like a double dose of caffeine for Tosca and would prefer the Covent Garden 1964, no matter how good the De Sabata is.
> 
> Can't anyone think about a DVD recording for Lucia? I'm about to request Rogerx to give their entire list of DVD recordings for the 200 operas.


For Lucia I'd have thought 
Joan Sutherland/ Alfredo Kraus/ Pablo Elvira with Richard Bonynge at the Met


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## Granate

Revitalized Classics said:


> For Lucia I'd have thought
> Joan Sutherland/ Alfredo Kraus/ Pablo Elvira with Richard Bonynge at the Met


You can still vote for this in the poll thread if you recommend it. Even if you can't think of CDs.

If you have been reading the BS Poll thread, we are mentioned as a poll with "more traditional tastes" but less representative because of the low number of members. I was really interested in bringing this poll because of the knowledge we could pour on the DVD area, just to vote for the same recordings than in 2011 when many had not been reissued.

Are there many opera members from the 2011 and 2015 Opera polls that had enough with them and didn't just want to take part in this?


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## howlingfantods

The Conte said:


> Controversial!


Is it? i have no idea, feels like a pretty easy conclusion to me, callas was at her vocal peak 1953 and earlier, and her studio recordings are in much better sound than her live recordings of that pre-1953 era. for me, she's very good in verismo but unmatched in bel canto, lucia is a fun, popular opera, and her studio traviata was kind of a dud. i bought the first studio lucia after i had the live 1955, and i remember being surprised about much better callas sounds.


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## Revitalized Classics

Granate said:


> You can still vote for this in the poll thread if you recommend it. Even if you can't think of CDs.
> 
> If you have been reading the BS Poll thread, we are mentioned as a poll with "more traditional tastes" but less representative because of the low number of members. I was really interested in bringing this poll because of the knowledge we could pour on the DVD area, just to vote for the same recordings than in 2011 when many had not been reissued.
> 
> Are there many opera members from the 2011 and 2015 Opera polls that had enough with them and didn't just want to take part in this?


Thanks Granate, the poll thread had sort of passed me by 
In the end, I can't recommended the DVD before any of my CD choices but it is still one of the best DVD versions if anyone is interested...


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## Granate

Revitalized Classics said:


> Thanks Granate, the poll thread had sort of passed me by
> In the end, I can't recommended the DVD before any of my CD choices but it is still one of the best DVD versions if anyone is interested...


You should read the rules one more time. CDs and DVDs are separate votings.


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## Revitalized Classics

Granate said:


> You should read the rules one more time. CDs and DVDs are separate votings.


Whoopsie :lol:

...I've added a few DVDs, thanks


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## Granate

wkasimer said:


> I know that this isn't really a discussion thread, but I'm curious about this choice. I've never heard it, due to the thought of listening to Otto Wiener for four hours....


Even if I don't lose my mind for Wiener's Sachs or the Sound quality of the recording, the singers are superb: Traxel's Walther, Stolze's David, Grummer's Eva, Schärtel's Magdalena, Hotter's Pogner and Blackenheim's Beckmesser.

This was my reply to the Meistersinger round we have today and tomorrow. Do you enjoy this opera? Just a little bit? I honestly don't but I needed to listen to every +4h of more than 40 recordings to call myself a true Wagnerite entitled to post in the HWR Thread.


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## Tsaraslondon

Granate said:


> This was my reply to the Meistersinger round we have today and tomorrow. Do you enjoy this opera? Just a little bit? I honestly don't but I needed to listen to every +4h of more than 40 recordings to call myself a true Wagnerite entitled to post in the HWR Thread.


I admire your dedication!

I admit it's not a favourite of mine and my choices (Karajan/Bayreuth and Kempe 1957 studio) are not based on anywhere near so many recordings. I don't know how many others I've listened to, but it's nowhere near 40!


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## annaw

Granate said:


> This was my reply to the Meistersinger round we have today and tomorrow. Do you enjoy this opera? Just a little bit? I honestly don't but I needed to listen to every +4h of more than 40 recordings to call myself a true Wagnerite entitled to post in the HWR Thread.


This is crazy but very admirable! However, I really hope that this isn't the requirement for calling oneself a Wagnerite :lol:. I actually really enjoy the opera and for some reason always have. It unveils an entirely different side of Wagner and has a very witty libretto which has some wonderful wordplay. He also shows his very good understanding of melodies and tunes. It's so crazy to what extent he went with the whole meistersinger thing and, as far as I know, actually used the original meistersinger melodies. Those small details only make Wagner's operas more precious!


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## wkasimer

Granate said:


> Even if I don't lose my mind for Wiener's Sachs or the Sound quality of the recording, the singers are superb: Traxel's Walther, Stolze's David, Grummer's Eva, Schärtel's Magdalena, Hotter's Pogner and Blackenheim's Beckmesser.


Thanks - it's on Spotify, so I'm giving it a listen right now.



> This was my reply to the Meistersinger round we have today and tomorrow. Do you enjoy this opera? Just a little bit? I honestly don't but I needed to listen to every +4h of more than 40 recordings to call myself a true Wagnerite entitled to post in the HWR Thread.


Meistersinger is one of my absolute favorite operas, and I think that I've heard virtually every available recording (and countless broadcasts) - except for the 1958 Bayreuth.


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## Granate

I do think that, unlike Parsifal, Die Meistersinger has been gifted with fantastic performances by several different casts, orchestras and conductors. On Stereo, apart from the Kubelík and Bóhm I have voted for, the Karajan Dresden and the Barenboim Bayreuth are very remarkable too, on mono, I've recently liked a lot the Metropolitan Reiner performance from 1953 with VDLA as Eva. Then there's the Rosbaud in Milan, another Reiner in Vienna, the Knappertsbusch Bayreuth 1960... Jochum in the Bavarian State Opera with Hans Hotter...


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## wkasimer

Granate said:


> I do think that, unlike Parsifal, Die Meistersinger has been gifted with fantastic performances by several different casts, orchestras and conductors.


I agree with you about Meistersinger, but I think that Parsifal has done even better in terms of recordings of quality.


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## vivalagentenuova

As with _Die Walkure_, _Meistersinger_ has a partial recording that, were it complete, would easily leave all others in the dust, imo. Bohm's 1938 Act III with Hans Hermann Nissen, Margarete Teschemacher, and Torsten Ralf, among other greats, is simply fabulous.


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## wkasimer

vivalagentenuova said:


> As with _Die Walkure_, _Meistersinger_ has a partial recording that, were it complete, would easily leave all others in the dust, imo. Bohm's 1938 Act III with Hans Hermann Nissen, Margarete Teschemacher, and Torsten Ralf, among other greats, is simply fabulous.


I listened to this the other day, and completely agree. Another great performance that's complete but in execrable sound is Salzburg 1937, conducted by Toscanini, with Nissen and Reining.


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## howlingfantods

kind of a fun pairing is to listen to the beecham/hotter/grummer act 1 and 2 (heavily cut) from covent garden followed by the bohm/nissen/teschemacher dresden act 3. they don't match artistically or sonically but it's nice to listen to these chunks in something approximating a full recording.


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## vivalagentenuova

howlingfantods said:


> kind of a fun pairing is to listen to the beecham/hotter/grummer act 1 and 2 (heavily cut) from covent garden followed by the bohm/nissen/teschemacher dresden act 3. they don't match artistically or sonically but it's nice to listen to these chunks in something approximating a full recording.


I use the 1957 Solti/Flagstad Act III of _Walkure_ to complete the Walter/Melchior/Lehmann sets. It's quite satisfactory. (Then I use that to replace the Moralt _Walkure_ in the whole cycle, as I don't like Braun and the sound is not good.) It's still kind of weird to me to have single act recordings, as such a thing makes no sense with the operas I started listening to opera with. All of _La boheme_ is about the same length or shorter than that Bohm recording!


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## Tsaraslondon

I seem to be the only person who likes the 1951 Karajan *Meistersinger*. I just listened to it again yesterday and it strikes me as being a very fine performance indeed and extremely well cast.

For *Cavalleria Rusticana* it has to be Callas in top vocal form with the suitably caddish Turiddu of Di Stefano. Panerai is a terrific Alfio and even the Lola of Anna Maria Canali makes an impression, the short exchange between Lola and Santuzza dripping with barely suppressed rancour. Serafin is a bit leisurely in the choruses but intensely dramatic elsewhere.

We are lucky to have this set as Callas was a last minute replacement for a mezzo (Stignani?) who was having problems with her top notes. The only thing that really lets it down is the sound, which tends to overload at climaxes. It wasn't produced by Walter Legge and was made in the Basilica di Sant'Eufemia rather than at La Scala, where the contemporaneous and much better De Sabata *Tosca* was recorded, so maybe that had something to do with it. Mind you the Serafin *I Puritani* was also recorded at the Basilica and that is also much better.

That leaves room for a stereo choice and I went for the Levine with Domingo and Scotto. As ever, Scotto is a most musical and intelligent singer who, like Callas, pays heed to the composers every marking without resorting to the over expressive tricks of so many _verismo_ singers. Domingo is in great voice, though he misses something of Di Stefano's thuggishness.


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## The Conte

Tsaraslondon said:


> I seem to be the only person who likes the 1951 Karajan *Meistersinger*. I just listened to it again yesterday and it strikes me as being a very fine performance indeed and extremely well cast.
> 
> For *Cavalleria Rusticana* it has to be Callas in top vocal form with the suitably caddish Turiddu of Di Stefano. Panerai is a terrific Alfio and even the Lola of Anna Maria Canali makes an impression, the short exchange between Lola and Santuzza dripping with barely suppressed rancour. Serafin is a bit leisurely in the choruses but intensely dramatic elsewhere.
> 
> We are lucky to have this set as Callas was a last minute replacement for a mezzo (Stignani?) who was having problems with her top notes. The only thing that really lets it down is the sound, which tends to overload at climaxes. It wasn't produced by Walter Legge and was made in the Basilica di Sant'Eufemia rather than at La Scala, where the contemporaneous and much better De Sabata *Tosca* was recorded, so maybe that had something to do with it. Mind you the Serafin *I Puritani* was also recorded at the Basilica and that is also much better.
> 
> That leaves room for a stereo choice and I went for the Levine with Domingo and Scotto. As ever, Scotto is a most musical and intelligent singer who, like Callas, pays heed to the composers every marking without resorting to the over expressive tricks of so many _verismo_ singers. Domingo is in great voice, though he missed something of Di Stefano's thuggishness.


I agree with you 100%! As far as Meistersinger is concerned, it's an opera that I like less the more I listen to it. I also tend to think of the recordings I know based on the sopranos in them! (Schwarzkopf, De los Angeles, Grummer, Janowitz and Studer.) There are many very good recordings of the opera and whilst the Karajan 51 is one of them, there is a lot of competition (For a Bayreuth recording I'd go with Kna's with Grummer over it). Sawallisch is possibly the best for those in modern sound (the singers in the Barenboim aren't particularly interesting, although musically it's superb). The Kubelik, however, is justly famous and is better than any other I have heard by a hair's breadth. I don't know the Kempe with Grummer very well and I should listen to it some time, but as I've said, it's not an opera I actually like that much.

N.


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## Tsaraslondon

The Conte said:


> but as I've said, it's not an opera I actually like that much.
> 
> N.


Nor I, but I found I was liking it a lot more than usual yesterday.


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## annaw

I see we've moved on to _Cavalleria rusticana_. I started listening to the opera during the pandemic while I was working. It was conveniently short but I am still quite amazed how cohesive the plot is despite that, especially considering that Mascagni was still relatively young when he wrote it. I love the orchestral writing and the choruses which seem to play a very important part in the whole opera. I think that the whole experience is enhanced by an insightful interpretations which Callas in Serafin's recording undoubtedly provides. I personally really love Di Stefano's lyric and somewhat carefree Italian voice which fits such characters as Turiddu very well. Panerai is also a very nice addition.

The first _Cavalleria_ I listened to was Erede's recording with Björling, Tebaldi and Bastianini. I'm particularly fond of Björling and Bastianini and I find Tebaldi's voice to be immensely beautiful and rich. Thus vocally this performance is a real killer and in a very good sound. The combination of Björling's ringing top, Tebaldi's great vocal beauty and Bastianini's magnificent dark instrument is wonderful. I know that the conducting has been criticised but I think I was so focused on the singing that I didn't really notice... It certainly wasn't something catastrophic that would keep me from enjoying the singing.

I gave a point for Karajan's recording as well. It is vocally very good but not as great as Serafin or Erede. However, it is conducting-wise the most marvellous _Cavalleria_ I've heard but it's in a rather typical Karajan sound which I'm very fond of but not everyone is. He managed to put a lot of focus on Mascagni's marvellous orchestral and choral writing and his ability to keep the constant orchestral flow is simply beautiful.


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## vivalagentenuova

Mascaagni's own recording with Bruna Rasa, Gigli, Bechi, and Simionato is surely a top contender. The role of Santuzza cannot be better sung than by Bruna Rasa. She is fierce, tortured, and has a powerful, beautiful voice. Her rendition of "Voi lo sapete" also has the best, most intense "io piaaaaaaaaAAAAngo" I've heard, which is very important, in fact essential, to a great recording of this opera. I do think Mascagni takes some music a little slower than I would like, but the tempo also brings out some details and my reaction to it depends on my mood. All the voices are rock solid, and there's not a moment when one thinks, "If only they hadn't cast X...." It's a very important musical document, but more importantly it's great opera. Also, the beautifully spoken intro by Mascagni is a bonus.

For DVD the best version I know of is conducted by Karajan with Gianfranco Cecchele, Fiorenza Cossotto, and Giangiacomo Guelfi. The filming style is kind of weird, and I would have preferred something more traditional. It's watchable, just oddly claustrophobic, which I suppose does make some sense with the themes of the opera. It comes on DVD with a good _Pagliacci_ that has Vickers in the title role and Karajan conducting and directing.


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## The Conte

I agree with pretty much all the comments above about the various Cav recordings. (There are so many good ones of this opera.) Simionato's early Cetra recording has a lot of Italian flair and passion. I second those who like Levine's fine stereo edition and Mascagni's second recording, both are superb. I found it very difficult to pick just one recording even though the Serafin set has a perfection very much of its own. In the end I plumped for an over the top live recording with Simionato, Corelli and Guelfi that must have been a fantastic night in the theatre.

N.


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## ManateeFL

I see a lot of mentions of Levine's Cav recording with Domingo and Scotto, but I'm curious to hear opinions about Sinopoli's with Domingo and Balsta since that's the version I own...


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## wkasimer

Tsaraslondon said:


> I seem to be the only person who likes the 1951 Karajan *Meistersinger*. I just listened to it again yesterday and it strikes me as being a very fine performance indeed and extremely well cast.


You're hardly alone - many people like this recording, and I suspect that those of us who don't are decidedly in the minority.

As much as I enjoy Karajan's conducting, I find the cast problematic. I won't repeat my general aversion to Schwarzkopf, although this early recording finds her somewhat less insufferable than usual. Edelmann sings well enough, but is a very one-dimensional Sachs. The major culprit is Hopf, whose beefy, baritonal instrument is entirely unsuited to Walther. Back when I started collecting 50 or so years ago, this set probably ranked fairly high because of the small number of available recordings, most of which were perceived as having some egregious casting flaw. But since then, there have been several recordings with superior casts, mostly in better sound, not to mention the reissue a number of historic sets.


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## Tsaraslondon

wkasimer said:


> You're hardly alone - many people like this recording, and I suspect that those of us who don't are decidedly in the minority.
> 
> As much as I enjoy Karajan's conducting, I find the cast problematic. I won't repeat my general aversion to Schwarzkopf, although this early recording finds her somewhat less insufferable than usual. Edelmann sings well enough, but is a very one-dimensional Sachs. The major culprit is Hopf, whose beefy, baritonal instrument is entirely unsuited to Walther. Back when I started collecting 50 or so years ago, this set probably ranked fairly high because of the small number of available recordings, most of which were perceived as having some egregious casting flaw. But since then, there have been several recordings with superior casts, mostly in better sound, not to mention the reissue a number of historic sets.


Whereas for me Schwarzkopf is one of my main reasons for liking the set, but then I'm quite happy to "suffer" her in virtually everything she recorded - and I have most of her recordings. This was apparently Edelmann's first Sachs and later he was more inside the role. I do like the actual sound of his voice though. I would agree with you about Hopf though and the final Prize Song isn't really the wonderful culmination it should be.


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## Granate

Apparently very few people voted for Bluebeard's castle. Probably they didn't notice. I've never been satisfied with a single recording, or either the finale in the Solti production.

But now it's time for one of the most famous and demanding operas: Strauss' _Salome._ I have not studied this opera as much as the following _Elektra,_ but allow me to post here my favourite version of the _Dance of the Seven Veils._ Enjoy the view.






This was the first time in my life I heard about Salome, when I was just a kid. Oh, the nostalgia.


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## Tsaraslondon

*Salome* for me is Welitsch. She was coached in the role by Strauss himself and I don't think any other singer on disc has quite managed to convey the character's combination of innocence and depravity as well as she did. There are two complete performances from the Met, but she is in much fresher voice on the first from 1949. By 1952 the voice has lost its gorgeous sheen and indeed she was diagnosed with nodules the following year. She never recovered her former glory, though she remained active on the operatic stage for quite some time, taking on character roles instead. As a supplement, I'd also want the 1944 recording of the closing scene conducted by Lovro von Matacic.

Of course these performances are distinctly lo-fi, so I'd also want a more modern recording and for that I turned to Karajan with a youthful Behrens, whose voice at that time had a lovely silvery quality on top. It's also brilliantly cast from top to bottom with some famous names even amongst the Jews and Nazarenes. Karajan was always at his best in the music of Strauss and orchestrally this is superb.

Two choices for DVD as well. Stratas is the epitome of the young spoiled princess in the Friedrich film and Ewing (stripping completely in her dance) is equally convincing in her then husband Peter Hall's production at Covent Garden.


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## The Conte

I feel a bit of a charlatan voting on Salome as I'm not as familiar with the respective recordings as I should be. In any case I have voted for the CD and the DVD that are my favourites at the moment.

I need to listen to the Solti and the Karajan versions again.

N.

P.S. I love the Wellitsch studio recording of the final scene, I must investigate her live recording from 1949.


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## Tsaraslondon

The Conte said:


> I feel a bit of a charlatan voting on Salome as I'm not as familiar with the respective recordings as I should be. In any case I have voted for the CD and the DVD that are my favourites at the moment.
> 
> I need to listen to the Solti and the Karajan versions again.
> 
> N.
> 
> P.S. I love the Wellitsch studio recording of the final scene, I must investigate her live recording from 1949.


There are actually two Welistch studio recordings of the Final Scene: 1944 under Lovro von Matacic and 1949 under Reiner. The 1944 has the voice at its absolute peak, with Welitsch fresh from studying the part with Strauss. It is definitely the one to have,


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## Tsaraslondon

When it comes to *Elektra* I feel the same way as The Conte did about *Salome*. Still, I voted for the Sawallisch as I listened to it recently and really enjoyed it, a lot more than the other recording I knew well, which was the Solti. In a piece which is usually too overwrought for my tastes, Sawallisch finds much more that is lyrically beautiful, and I am reminded I also prefer his recordings of *Capriccio* and *Arabella* to all others.


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## Granate

Tsaraslondon said:


> You can now go to the theatre again in Spain? Still no sign of theatres and concert halls opening again over here in the UK. Even some of the big, popular shows have closed for good.


I said theatre in the American sense. I used to say "cinema" often, but here we talked about theatres as both places.

Yes, both are open, with reduced audience. We paid 5€ each for an entrance to watch the film.

I feel bad about that. One of my friends in the UK works at a threatre and I haven't checked up on him for a long time.






Look at this kind of semi-staged concert in Teatro Real in Madrid.


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## Granate

_Elektra_ is the Strauss Opera that I have studied the most, much more than Salome. It's the first opera I have watched live, in Valencia, although Irene Theorin had much better performances in the past.

The number of great recordings is strikingly good for me. I loved at first the Dresden Böhm studio recording, but I moved from the faulty studio sound to more lively performances like the Mitropoulos in Salzburg and the Böhm in Vienna 1965. I've never warmed up to the famous Karajan Salzburg Elektra. I think Astrid Varnay did much better in early 50s, like the Metropolitan 1952 performance with Fritz Reiner and my lovely Walburga Wegner. The Böhm with Nilsson-Rysanek-Resnik-Wächter is almost an unbeatable cast, but the sheer stereo recording in Vienna by Solti and Decca takes the plunge.

I've listened to the Montreal tour performance with a very similar cast and it's quite good too. My favourite Orest will still be DFD.


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## Tsaraslondon

Granate said:


> I said theatre in the American sense. I used to say "cinema" often, but here we talked about theatres as both places.
> 
> Yes, both are open, with reduced audience. We paid 5€ each for an entrance to watch the film.
> 
> I feel bad about that. One of my friends in the UK works at a threatre and I haven't checked up on him for a long time.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Look at this kind of semi-staged concert in Teatro Real in Madrid.


It's a very difficult time for the industry. I am more or less retired but I still have friends working in the industry and my niece, who is a musician has had all her gigs cancelled. Most performing artists are going to have to find work elsewhere, if that's even possible.


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## The Conte

Tsaraslondon said:


> When it comes to *Elektra* I feel the same way as The Conte did about *Salome*. Still, I voted for the Sawallisch as I listened to it recently and really enjoyed it, a lot more than the other recording I knew well, which was the Solti. In a piece which is usually too overwrought for my tastes, Sawallisch finds much more that is lyrically beautiful, and I am reminded I also prefer his recordings of *Capriccio* and *Arabella* to all others.


The Sawallisch recording was a revelation for me and I have only had it for a couple of years. I should have bought it sooner as a Studer fan, but I never bothered as I had the Abbado recording on DVD with Studer and Marton in. I ended up buying the Sawallisch after having found it on YouTube and listened to it. It is far more nuanced than the famous Solti set and yet isn't any the less exciting. I listened to both recordings today (expecting to prefer the Solti) and whilst the Solti is superb, visceral and barbaric, its unrelenting aggressiveness does get wearing about half way through. I also prefer the singers in the more recent recording, with Marton portraying the heroine in a much softer and more feminine way than is often heard. The Solti is justly famous as it is superb, however the Sawallisch won hands down.

N.


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## Granate

Only 3 people voting for elektra!  It's supposedly a famous opera.

Even if I'm now challenging the Symphonies (starting by mono recordings), this is the time for Eugene Onegin. I was really pleased to watch the latest Met production on cinemas and I was inside the work a lot. But getting to know many more operas, and especially Prokofiev's _War and Peace,_ I've stopped being attracted to this work. I still don't get the love for the old mono Melodiya recording with Vishnevskaya singing Tatjana. The more sound quality I enjoy in this work the better, which both the Dresden and Covent Garden recordings bring for me.


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## Tsaraslondon

The main thing that sways me towards the Khaikin for *Eugene Onegin* is the conducting. No other conductor gets it quite so right, which is one of the reasons it's admired so much by musicians. A conductor friend of mine once asked me which recording I recommended and I suggested the Bychkov and the Khaikin. He listened to them both and rang to tell me that when he heard the Khaikin he felt he heard exacty what he had imagined but had never heard in any other recording. I think Khaikin's conducting is as near perfect as, say, De Sabata's in *Tosca*. His pacing and understanding of the drama is absolute.

His cast isn't bad either and it captures Vishneskaya at her youthful best, before the voice became too squally. Had this recording had the currency the De Sabata *Tosca* has had over the years, I feel sure it would have achieved the same classic status.


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## The Conte

I know that I will be the only one to choose it, however I have to choose my favourite. Whilst I like the conducting on the Khaikin, there is still something about it that has never completely convinced me (and none of the stereo recordings has either). I have a great fondness for the Solti (he can be brash and thoughtless in the pit on many recordings, but his approach to this score works for me here). The casting isn't as good as it could be on that set, though. There is a very fine live recording from Vienna with Freni and Dvorsky that is recommendable as well. 

However, there is one recording where not only does the conducting encompass the unusual subtle passion of the work, but there are singers that both suit their parts and interpret them appropriately. That's the completely underrated Orlov with Kruglikova, Ivanov, Kozlovsky, Mayaskova and Reizen as a luxury Gremin. Ivanov is possibly my favourite Russian baritone with a sonorous, expressive tone. Kruglikova is somewhat old fashioned, but is more maidenly than Vishnevskaya's steely assay of the role. Many prefer Lemeshev over Kozlovsky, but both were superb Lenskys and Mayaskava deserves to be much better known. This recording should be heard by all fans of Russian opera even if just to hear a different approach to the work.

N.


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## VitellioScarpia

My favorite video recording is the Met 2007 with Gergiev conducting, and the trio of Hvorovstosky, Fleming, and Vargas. I saw the production live and they all made you love the characters. The production live was beautifully stylized and brought one's focus onto the characters and their painful interactions. Vocally all of them were at their very best and most expressive. It was amazing to hear the flood of voices and orchestra coming over us. There was a magic moment of silence at the end of the performance I attended before the whole theater exploded cheering. The audio recording is so good that it has also become my reference "audio" recording.

I love the Orlov recording because, as noted by The Count (_io sono soltanto un barone_), the conducting and the singing present the opera perfectly. I cannot take leave without noting that having Mark Reizen as Gremin is luxury casting.


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## wkasimer

The Conte said:


> Many prefer Lemeshev over Kozlovsky, but both were superb Lenskys and Mayaskava deserves to be much better known.


Both Lemeshev and Kozlovsky recorded the role earlier in their careers (Lemeshev in '36, Kozlovsky in '37), when both (particularly Lemeshev) were in fresher voice. I don't think that either is suitable as a reference version due to sonic limitations and casting issues, but fans of either singer should seek them out. Lemeshev in particular had a much more beautiful instrument before suffering severe lung disease during WW2.


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## SixFootScowl

Now I am curious about this apparently obscure Barenboim Onegin recording. Will have to check out the sound clips at Presto.


howlingfantods said:


> audio
> barenboim/mattei/samuil - 2 pts
> melik-pashaev/orlov/nortsov/kruglikova - 2 pts
> khaikin/belov/vishnevskaya - 2 pts
> 
> the barenboim is unfortunately part of a large box set (the 50 years Grosses Festspielhaus Salzburg 25 disk set--generally available for around $50 to $70) but can be purchased digitally at presto separately from the full set for around $20.


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## The Conte

VitellioScarpia said:


> My favorite video recording is the Met 2007 with Gergiev conducting, and the trio of Hvorovstosky, Fleming, and Vargas. I saw the production live and they all made you love the characters. The production live was beautifully stylized and brought one's focus onto the characters and their painful interactions. Vocally all of them were at their very best and most expressive. It was amazing to hear the flood of voices and orchestra coming over us. There was a magic moment of silence at the end of the performance I attended before the whole theater exploded cheering. The audio recording is so good that it has also become my reference "audio" recording.
> 
> I love the Orlov recording because, as noted by The Count (_io sono soltanto un barone_), the conducting and the singing present the opera perfectly. I cannot take leave without noting that having Mark Reizen as Gremin is luxury casting.


I had no idea there were other Orlov Onegin fans out there!

N.


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## howlingfantods

SixFootScowl said:


> Now I am curious about this apparently obscure Barenboim Onegin recording. Will have to check out the sound clips at Presto.


i don't do the streaming thing so i have no idea if box sets like this are on them, so i don't know if this can be easily streamed.

there are a couple of other great opera recordings included in the set though--the live 1960 karajan rosenkavalier with della casa, jurinac and guden, the fricsay idomeneo with kmentt, grummer, lorengar and haefliger, the rizzi traviata with netrebko and villazon. there's a good levine missa solemnis and the bernstein mahler 8 from his second cycle. but a lot of these have been issued individually by DG over the years so it's likely many collectors will already have a lot of what's here.


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## VitellioScarpia

The Conte said:


> I had no idea there were other Orlov Onegin fans out there!
> 
> N.


Strange world...


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## The Conte

Will it or won't it?

(The Klemperer win the Fidelio vote, I mean.)

I've gone with Bernstein, although I also like the lean, classical approach of Fricsay. Janowitz doesn't get much love around here, but I'm a fan.

N.


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## SixFootScowl

The Conte said:


> Will it or won't it?
> 
> (The Klemperer win the Fidelio vote, I mean.)
> 
> I've gone with Bernstein, although I also like the lean, classical approach of Fricsay. Janowitz doesn't get much love around here, but I'm a fan.
> 
> N.


Problem for me is that the Bernstein CD set is studio and I can't listen to it when the soundtrack from the DVD is so much better, more alive, more real.


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## Granate

The Conte said:


> *CD*
> 
> 6p Bernstein WSO (Janowitz/Kollo)
> 
> *DVD*
> 
> 6p Bernstein WSO (Janowitz/Kollo)
> 
> N.





SixFootScowl said:


> DVD
> 
> 6p Bernstein WSO (Janowitz/Kollo)












I was freaking out. Do you really check the orchestra you are naming? Recording is Wiener Philharmoniker, not the Wiener Symphoniker (today I saw the new Philippe Jordan Brahms cycle with the orchestra *yawns*)

*My review and favourite Fidelio recordings*

No surprise that my favourite Beethoven performers are Furtwängler and Klemperer. Never enjoyed the Karajan Studio. There is also a Salzburg recording from 1957 that he conducted released by Orfeo. I don't know if it's worth it.


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## Tsaraslondon

Klemperer will probably win, but I'm sticking with my Karajan recording, which I first bought shortly after seeng Dernesch as Leonore with Scottish Opera. I will never forget the experience of hearing that voice in the theatre and there was no doubt she was in a different class from the other singers, her entry into the canon quartet in Act I piercing the gloom of the dungeon set like a shaft of sunlight. Some people say they can hear the strain the role must have put on her (she did after all retrain after a few years and come back as a mezzo) but I think they are being wise after the event. She sounds radiant to me in the Karajan recording, and the rest of his cast is superb too. 

When I started to replace my LPs with CDs I bowed to popular opinion and bought the Klemperer recording but I was profoundly disappointed and felt it lacked the intensity and incisive drama of the Karajan, which remains my benchmark. I feel it is generally forgotten and severely underrated. I eventually bought the Karajan again in CD and ditched the Klemperer.


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## The Conte

Granate said:


> I was freaking out. Do you really check the orchestra you are naming? Recording is Wiener Philharmoniker, not the Wiener Symphoniker (today I saw the new Philippe Jordan Brahms cycle with the orchestra *yawns*)
> 
> *My review and favourite Fidelio recordings*
> 
> No surprise that my favourite Beethoven performers are Furtwängler and Klemperer. Never enjoyed the Karajan Studio. There is also a Salzburg recording from 1957 that he conducted released by Orfeo. I don't know if it's worth it.


Sorry, yes, that's the one, it was a lapsus on my part.

N.


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## SixFootScowl

The Conte said:


> Sorry, yes, that's the one, it was a lapsus on my part.
> 
> N.


And I just copied you.


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## Granate

It's time for Bellini's Sonnambula!

Should we award SixFootScowl the amount of 18 points to draw between his favourite recordings since he owns and knows so much?

I was going to vote for the studio Scala recording with Antonino Votto, because the famous aria sounded the best there from all the recordings I had heard from Callas.

I can't find the Jacques Cousteau clip that had that aria, that we discussed in this forum years ago and led me to know this opera.
Do you know it?


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## Tsaraslondon

We should always remember that Bellini wrote *La Sonnambula* for Giuditta Pasta, the same singer he wrote *Norma* for. It was years later that the roles were allocated to different types of soprano; large voiced dramatic sopranos, who often couldn't cope with the coloratura demands for *Norma* and light voiced doll-like coloraturas for Amina, who just made the opera into a coloratura showpiece. Callas, with the help of Visconti and Bernstein, gave the opera back its human dimension.

She first sang the role in Visconti's picture-book production at La Scala in 1955, a night on which she was assuredly crowned _la regina della Scala_, a performance mercifully preserved in sound and one I review on my blog https://tsaraslondon.wordpress.com/2017/12/01/la-sonnambula-la-scala-1955/.

The production was revived for her in 1957, but this time was conducted by Votto and had the rather underwhelming Monti replacing Valletti. The studio recording was made at the same time and is more representative of the revival. Though it obviously enjoys the best sound of all the Callas recordings, Votto is a bit uninspired. The Cologne performance, taped shortly afterwards is much more exciting and the sound isn't bad at all. I marginally prefer the Bernstein but the Cologne does have that stunning cadenza in the last act, where Callas arpeggios up to a _forte_ Eb _in alt_ before effecting a _diminuendo_ on it then cascading down a perfect string of pearls scale, a feat unheard by any other singer.


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## The Conte

Tsaraslondon said:


> We should always remember that Bellini wrote *La Sonnambula* for Giuditta Pasta, the same singer he wrote *Norma* for. It was years later that the roles were allocated to different types of soprano; large voiced dramatic sopranos, who often couldn't cope with the coloratura demands for *Norma* and light voiced doll-like coloraturas for Amina, who just made the opera into a coloratura showpiece. Callas, with the help of Visconti and Bernstein, gave the opera back its human dimension.
> 
> She first sang the role in Visconti's picture-book production at La Scala in 1955, a night on which she was assuredly crowned _la regina della Scala_, a performance mercifully preserved in sound and one I review on my blog https://tsaraslondon.wordpress.com/2017/12/01/la-sonnambula-la-scala-1955/.
> 
> The production was revived for her in 1957, but this time was conducted by Votto and had the rather underwhelming Monti replacing Valletti. The studio recording was made at the same time and is more representative of the revival. Though it obviously enjoys the best sound of all the Callas recordings, Votto is a bit uninspired. The Cologne performance, taped shortly afterwards is much more exciting and the sound isn't bad at all. I marginally prefer the Bernstein but the Cologne does have that stunning cadenza in the last act, where Callas arpeggios up to a _forte_ Eb _in alt_ before effecting a _diminuendo_ on it then cascading down a perfect string of pearls scale, a feat unheard by any other singer.


It would be interesting to look up all the operas that were written for Pasta. Off the top of my head I remember that Donizetti wrote Anna Bolena for her. Going by descriptions of her she seemed to have been a mezzo with an upwards extension, which would also be a valid description of Callas. Anyway, I love the Bernstein Sonnambula, but due to the cuts and sound I will have to also choose a second recording.

N.


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## SixFootScowl

Granate said:


> It's time for Bellini's Sonnambula!
> 
> Should we award SixFootScowl the amount of 18 points to draw between his favourite recordings since he owns and knows so much?


Well I think I have all the commercial CD releases, 25 of them to be exact. But there are two that I really hone in on, and so I will only post those two, as otherwise I dilute the scores.

As for knowing so much about La Sonnambula recordings, maybe I do, but I am not sure it is worth much to anyone here at TC. :lol:

For DVDs I am struggling how to present it. I don't want to spend a lot of time digging out the dates and orchestras for six DVDS, so will simply put the conductor and the two main characters (Amina and Elvino).

My bigger problem is how to rate them if I have five DVDs tolist and only six points, but want some of the DVDs more heavily weighted than others. Can I split points? LIke 1.5 p?


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## Granate

SixFootScowl said:


> My bigger problem is how to rate them if I have five DVDs tolist and only six points, but want some of the DVDs more heavily weighted than others. Can I split points? LIke 1.5 p?


No, only integers. You will have to award 2p to one of them. Thank you for your contribution.


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## SixFootScowl

Granate said:


> No, only integers. You will have to award 2p to one of them. Thank you for your contribution.


Or throw in a 6th DVD.


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## SixFootScowl

I only posted 4 DVDs, but if I had enough points to spread around (the 18 Granate suggested a few posts back) I'd do it something like this:

DVD

5p - Oren, 2004, Maggio Musicale Fiorentino (Eva Mei, Jose Bros)
4p - Ferro, 2013, Staatsorchester Stuttgart (Ana Durlovski, Luciano Botelho)
3p - Ferro, 2012, Teatro La Fenice (Jessica Pratt, Shalva Mukeria)
3p - Bartoletti, 1956, Milano della Televisione Italiana (Anna Moffo, Danilo Vega)
2p - Pido, 2009, MET (Dessay, Florez)
1p - Benini, 2008, Teatro Lirico di Cagliari (Gutierrez, Sirogusa)

They are all good and I wish there were more available commercially.


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## Tsaraslondon

We're on to *Suor Angelica* and Scotto is an easy winner for me. If you are happy to take at face value the opera's sweetly religious theme and miracle ending, then the De Los Angeles version (my second choice) certainly fits the bill. If, however, you see the final "miracle" as the crazed hallucination of a mind somewhat unhinged from the word go, a recording that turns the opera into a psychologically complex study of life in a cloistered, unnatural environment, with more than a hint of the atmosphere of Powell and Pressburger's brilliant *Black Narcissus*, then Scotto is your girl. Maazel's grip on the score is more tautly dramatic than Serafin's, Horne is formidable as the Zia Principessa and we even get Cotrubas in the minor role of Sister Genovieffa. The Met DVD with Scotto is equally intense, though I'm not sure if it's still available. Here are the final few minutes. I defy anyone not to be moved.


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## VitellioScarpia

What people miss in Suor Angelica is that Puccini and Forzano (the librettist) actually challenged the orthodox assessment of suicide in christianity and in particular, Catholicism. This opera is not just a saccharine tale about a poor girl who just commits suicide because of the pain suffered at the hand of an aristocratic family seeking our piety. Angelica commits suicide as an _act of faith_ instead of the canonical interpretation of being a _loss of faith_, which at the center of the "sin" of the refusal of the gift of salvation. Forzano and Puccini actually make Angelica's suicide an "acceptance" of the gift of salvation. I believe that a performance without the miracle can impoverish the intent of the authors unless contextualized well.

I saw the performance by Mme. Scotto without the miracle and instead as a personal vision. It was impressive as she carried the scene convincingly because of her dramatic powers and committed performance. Scotto succeeds in transmitting her faith on salvation, and later doubting it as she remembers the literal interpretation of the action she took. She regains her faith in the last few minutes of her life. It is an impressive performance.

However, later I saw the miracle fully represented in the 2007 Trittico at the Met and the experience was shattering as it forced us to accept the full significance of the piece. The Met did the ending beautifully with a child appearing as the doors of the chapel opened up, bathing him in golden light, and raising his hands to help Angelica to have a "good death." Levine brought an eery orchestral color by emphasizing the percussion (triangles and cymbals) which gave the music an ancient, almost primitive sound. When the last notes faded, a lady sitting besides me turned and said "Oh God, that was something." It was a remarkable experience. I needed the full intermission to compose myself.


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## The Conte

I'm going to be partisan and choose Vicky simply because I adore her, especially in Puccini.

N.


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## SixFootScowl

Backing up a couple operas here. In the Sonnambula voting several people included "Votto/La Scala/Cologne 1957." Is it this recording:










I think that must be it, but was confused because on the back it says "alla Scala di Milano" which is not Cologne. But I see two lines below that it says "Koln" which must be Cologne, so presumably an orchestra from Milan traveled to Cologne?


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## Andante Cantabile

SixFootScowl said:


> I think that must be it, but was confused because on the back it says "alla Scala di Milano" which is not Cologne. But I see two lines below that it says "Koln" which must be Cologne, so presumably an orchestra from Milan traveled to Cologne?


The La Scala Company, including the chorus and orchestra, conductor Antonino Votto and a group of artists travelled to Cologne in early July 1957. Apart from _Sonnambula_ with Callas, _Forza_ with Di Stefano and Gencer was also in the tour program.


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## Tsaraslondon

A word about the Karajan/Philharmonia *Der Rosenkavalier*, which is my first and only CD choice for the opera. It sounds amazing in the latest Warner pressing, so much better than any of the other remasterings I've heard. Worth every penny of the extra outlay. Truly!


----------



## vivalagentenuova

This is my favorite recording. Amazing singing, especially from Kern, von Milinkovic, and Weber.


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## Granate

There are so many votes in the _Rosenkavalier_ poll that I thought that I had to release the new voting round today!


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## The Conte

I'm going to struggle with Contes, there are so many different versions and I'm not sure any is entirely satisfactory.

N.


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## SixFootScowl

The Conte said:


> I'm going to struggle with Contes, there are so many different versions and I'm not sure any is entirely satisfactory.
> 
> N.


I won't vote. It is not my favorite opera, and I only have to sets: Gruberova and Sills.


----------



## Tsaraslondon

The Conte said:


> I'm going to struggle with Contes, there are so many different versions and I'm not sure any is entirely satisfactory.
> 
> N.


I think you may be more qualified than most. I seem to remember you did a fairly exhaustive comparison of the various sets and editions not so very long ago.

I haven't heard them all, but, of those that I have, I like the live Levine from Salzburg and the Bonynge, which use substantially the same edition I think.


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## The Conte

Tsaraslondon said:


> I think you may be more qualified than most. I seem to remember you did a fairly exhaustive comparison of the various sets and editions not so very long ago.
> 
> I haven't heard them all, but, of those that I have, I like the live Levine from Salzburg and the Bonynge, which use substantially the same edition I think.


The best overall is probably the Nagano, however my favourite performing edition is the Tate. I was thinking of voting for more than one, but in the end I just went for the Tate (although I would recommend the Nagano for others). I've gone with my personal favourite.

N.


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## Tsaraslondon

*Peter Grimes* has been extraordinarily lucky, both on disc and on DVD. Britten's own 1958 recording with Pears in the role he created at the premiere in 1945 is rightly considered a classic and should be in any collection. But it is not the only way to perform the opera and Vickers's towering performance provides a complete contrast. I find both of them absolutely riveting. That said, I would not want to be without Langridge's wonderful performance of the title role on the Hickox recording, which is sonically quite superb.

We are also spoiled for choice on DVD. I chose the two I know best; Vickers in Elijah Moshinsky's brilliant Covent Garden production, on which Davis's audio only version is based and, because I saw it in the theatre, Langridge's terrific performance for the ENO.


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## Granate

Great comment Tsaraslondon. I should dig in the 20th century when I have researched Bel Canto and Mozart first. I still don't know if life will reward me with a "surprise" before that happens.

Even if I voted for several recordings of _Les Contes d'Hoffmann_ and I'm especially attracted to the Dresden by Tate, the only good recording widely available today is the Nagano in Lyon. Universal should reissue the other three. Besides that, it isn't an opera I usually remember.

Edit: I lied. EMI is selling the GROTC Cluytens stereo recording for a bargain price. If only it was nearly as good as the Gounod _Faust_...


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## The Conte

Tsaraslondon said:


> *Peter Grimes* has been extraordinarily lucky, both on disc and on DVD. Britten's own 1958 recording with Pears in the role he created at the premiere in 1945 is rightly considered a classic and should be in any collection. But it is not the only way to perform the opera and Vickers's towering performance provides a complete contrast. I find both of them absolutely riveting. That said, I would not want to be without Langridge's wonderful performance of the title role on the Hickox recording, which is sonically quite superb.
> 
> We are also spoiled for choice on DVD. I chose the two I know best; Vickers in Elijah Moshinsky's brilliant Covent Garden production, on which Davis's audio only version is based and, because I saw it in the theatre, Langridge's terrific performance for the ENO.


Great points. Pears and Langridge are my go to Grimes and so I will choose one CD and one DVD of each. I've only heard the Vickers set once and I should revisit it.

N.


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## Tsaraslondon

The Conte said:


> Great points. Pears and Langridge are my go to Grimes and so I will choose one CD and one DVD of each. I've only heard the Vickers set once and I should revisit it.
> 
> N.


Vickers is a force to be reckoned with and quite different from either Pears or Langridge. I find it impossible to choose between him, Pears and Langridge. I'd say that the other roles on both the Britten and Davis recordings are slightly better than in the Hickox, especially Heather Harper's Ellen, but all three recordings are superb.

I see that only I and The Conte have voted on Grimes so far. Does nobody else love this opera? After all, it's pretty much a repertoire piece these days, performed all over the world and arguably the greatest opera written after WWII.


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## Tsaraslondon

*Dialogues des Carmélites* (please note, plural not singular) has not had so many recordings as *Peter Grimes*, though it is performed more often than it once was these days. However the two I know are both excellent.

The Dervaux boasts more or less the same cast as at its premiere, with Denise Duval at her considerable best in a role which was written with her in mind. Though it dates from 1958 it was unfortunately recorded in mono so the sound can't hope to compare with the more recent Nagano, which happily is also an excellent performance.

One really needs both.


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## The Conte

Tsaraslondon said:


> *Dialogues des Carmélites* (please note, plural not singular) has not had so many recordings as *Peter Grimes*, though it is performed more often than it once was these days. However the two I know are both excellent.
> 
> The Dervaux boasts more or less the same cast as at its premiere, with Denise Duval at her considerable best in a role which was written with her in mind. Though it dates from 1958 it was unfortunately recorded in mono so the sound can't hope to compare with the more recent Nagano, which happily is also an excellent performance.
> 
> One really needs both.


You're going to bankrupt me! (I've wondered about that original recording of Carmelites.) I'm not going to vote for a CD as I don't know the Dervaux, but there is a DVD that I will vote for.

N.


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## The Conte

I am the first to pick a DVD of Carmelites and my choice is often overlooked. I bought it because I didn't like the Muti version (despite liking the production and having seen it twice) and I wish they had filmed the premiere of the production with the sympathetic Blanche of Leontina Vaduva.

This DVD was a total revelation:








The conducting is urgent and no note is wasted in this performance, however it is the dramatic engagement of the singers (not really any big names in the cast) that makes this such a superb performance of a great piece.

N.


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## Tsaraslondon

Incidentally, Granate, I hate to be pedantic (again) but it's Francis Poulenc, not François.


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## Granate

Thank you. Fixed.

_Carmélites_ was one French opera I tried to watch on DVD. However, the score was so modern and the acting so similar to a classic 1950s film that I stopped and passed to the Russian repertoire. I didn't enjoy it.

I do love the Organ concerto.


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## The Conte

Granate said:


> Thank you. Fixed.
> 
> _Carmélites_ was one French opera I tried to watch on DVD. However, the score was so modern and the acting so similar to a classic 1950s film that I stopped and passed to the Russian repertoire. I didn't enjoy it.
> 
> I do love the Organ concerto.


Persevere, it's a wonderful opera. Perhaps start with the Nagano CD and follow with the libretto. It's modern, but not the usual crash, bang, wallop!

N.


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## SixFootScowl

The Conte said:


> I am the first to pick a DVD of Carmelites and my choice is often overlooked. I bought it because I didn't like the Muti version (despite liking the production and having seen it twice) and I wish they had filmed the premiere of the production with the sympathetic Blanche of Leontina Vaduva.
> 
> This DVD was a total revelation:
> View attachment 141673
> 
> 
> The conducting is urgent and no note is wasted in this performance, however it is the dramatic engagement of the singers (not really any big names in the cast) that makes this such a superb performance of a great piece.
> 
> N.


A shame the cheapest copy online is $28 (checked Amazon, Ebay, and not listing on PrestoClassical).


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## SixFootScowl

I happen to be watching a very nice production of the Carmelites I got from premiereoperaintl.com. It has English subtitles but there is an annoying noise that is pretty much continuous throughout. I am over an hour into it and like it a lot. It is the Canadian Opera. Toronto, 87. Carol Vaness, Harolyn Blackwell, Maureen Forrester, Janet Stubbs; Conductor: Jean Fournet.


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## Granate

*My favourite Manon Lescaut*










Manon: Magda Olivero
Des Grieux: Plácido Domingo
Lescaut: Giulio Fioravanti
Geronte: Alfredo Mariotti

*Coro e Orchestra dell'Arena di Verona
Nello Santi*

July 30th 1970

_Live recording in mono, with stage noise from the chorus. I really admire the performance. Domingo's Des Frieux is epic, his best performance. Great finale. Like La Boheme but without poetry and extreme anguish. This is a tearjerker. Manon by Olivero is a showstopper in Act III. Fine secondary cast._

I may have Bartoletti, Serafin and Sinopoli (wow Freni is strong) in high positions. But I think this is the best recording I've listened to.


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## Tsaraslondon

*Manon Lescaut* is not a favourite opera of mine, nor is it a favourite Callas recording as I've always thought she sounded tired after the rigours of recording *Turandot* only a few days earlier. There are some fearsome squalls on top notes which no doubt explain why release of the recording was delayed for almost two years.

That said I've listened to quite a few other recordings recently - Sinopoli, Chailly, Levine - and most of the time I just longed to be back with Serafin and Callas who captures to perfection the duality in Manon's nature - her youthful impetuosity, her capacity for love _and_ the materialism that leads to her demise. She is the only Manon on disc who also accurately executes the difficult _fioriture_ in Act II, which are skated over by most singers. Freni is good (better with Sinopoli than with Levine, where she sounds too old) but doesn't plumb the depths in the last act the way Callas does, and Te Kanwa is just rather bland.

It is also one of Di Stefano's best assumptions on disc and he and Serafin work up quite a storm in Act III. He sounds completely at the end of his tether in _Guardate, pazzo son_, making the Commandate's "Populate America if you must" response completely understandable.

I always think it a shame Scotto didn't get to record the opera round about the time of her re-emergence on the record scene in the 1970s, but at least we have the DVD of her superb Met performance with Domingo.

The Perlea has Bjoerling in fine voice, but Albanese also sounds too old and, _pace_ Granate, I think Olivero does too on the reording he chose (she was 60 after all).


----------



## Revitalized Classics

Granate said:


> Manon: Magda Olivero
> Des Grieux: Plácido Domingo
> Lescaut: Giulio Fioravanti
> Geronte: Alfredo Mariotti
> 
> *Coro e Orchestra dell'Arena di Verona
> Nello Santi*
> 
> July 30th 1970
> 
> _Live recording in mono, with stage noise from the chorus. I really admire the performance. Domingo's Des Frieux is epic, his best performance. Great finale. Like La Boheme but without poetry and extreme anguish. This is a tearjerker. Manon by Olivero is a showstopper in Act III. Fine secondary cast._
> 
> I may have Bartoletti, Serafin and Sinopoli (wow Freni is strong) in high positions. But I think this is the best recording I've listened to.


I enjoy the Santi set, if you like Olivero she is also recorded in stereo with Tucker in Caracas


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## VitellioScarpia

In spite of the stage noises typical of live recordings, the Levine 1980 Met telecast is my preferred audio recording of Manon Lescaut aside from being my DVD preference. There is exquisite vocal interplay between Scotto and Domingo whenever they sing together, Elvira offers luscious sounds as Lescaut and her duets with Manon, however, short quite effective as the duets with Capecchi. Scotto's live musicality, phrasing and her wonderful enunciation place her in my book even above the mighty Callas. I have not heard anyone sing the duet with Lescaut in Act II with more passion, making the words _a me mi rendi, i baci tuoi cocenti_ show how much she desires Des Grieux maintaining a perfect balance of youthful passion and elegance. The last Act which can become long in lesser hands is pure magic with both of them. (BTW, who could cry on stage like Domingo and not sound like laughter?)


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## vivalagentenuova

I'm partial to the Tebaldi/Del Monaco studio recording under Molinari-Pradelli, as well as the studio recording with Clara Petrella and Vasco Campagnano.

For live recordings, the 1951 Mexico City recording with Clara Petrella and Mario Del Monaco is impossible to beat. Beware, though, it is veris_issimo_. But if you are into Italian Tenor Sobs and raging soprano chest voice, it's an incomparable experience.


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## Tsaraslondon

For the more commonly heard 1869 *Faust* I retain my affection for the Cluytens which, to my mind, is the only recording in decent stereo sound to retain a semblance of French style, though I accept Christoff's mangled French can be an acquired taste. De Los Angeles remains my favourite Margeurite and Gedda is a stylish Faust.

However I also really like Christophe Rousset's recent recording of the 1859 Théatre Lyrique version of the opera, which differs quite a lot from the version we are more used to and is therefore not strictly competitive. An excellent cast in which Bernheim's Faust really stands out.


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## wkasimer

Tsaraslondon said:


> For the more commonly heard 1869 *Faust* I retain my affection for the Cluytens which, to my mind, is the only recording in decent stereo sound to retain a semblance of French style, though I accept Christoff's mangled French can be an acquired taste. De Los Angeles remains my favourite Margeurite and Gedda is a stylish Faust.


To be honest, I don't hear much of the French style in either Cluytens recording, unless it's from one of the Valentins, Borthayre or Blanc. Christoff is appalling, and the sound isn't very good on either set. The Plasson at least has good sound, a French conductor and orchestra, and a Francophone Mephisto.


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## Tsaraslondon

wkasimer said:


> To be honest, I don't hear much of the French style in either Cluytens recording, unless it's from one of the Valentins, Borthayre or Blanc. Christoff is appalling, and the sound isn't very good on either set. The Plasson at least has good sound, a French conductor and orchestra, and a Francophone Mephisto.


Not even from Gedda who, to my mind, always excels in French opera. I'll take him over Leech any day, just as I find De Los Angeles much more characterful _and_ beautiful than Studer. Christoff is a stumbling block, I'll grant you, but I'll put up with him for the rest.

The new Rousset is almost a different opera but it's very good. Have you heard it?


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## wkasimer

Tsaraslondon said:


> Not even from Gedda who, to my mind, always excels in French opera. I'll take him over Leech any day, just as I find De Los Angeles much more characterful _and_ beautiful than Studer. Christoff is a stumbling block, I'll grant you, but I'll put up with him for the rest.


I guess it depends on priorities. For me, Christoff is so awful that VdlA and Gedda hardly matter. As for Gedda, his French is good, but he's no Alain Vanzo or Leopold Simoneau.



> The new Rousset is almost a different opera but it's very good. Have you heard it?


Not yet, but I see that it's on Spotify...


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## Tsaraslondon

wkasimer said:


> I guess it depends on priorities. For me, Christoff is so awful that VdlA and Gedda hardly matter. As for Gedda, his French is good, but he's no Alain Vanzo or Leopold Simoneau.


I'm tempted to say, and Leech is no Gedda! :devil:



wkasimer said:


> Not yet, but I see that it's on Spotify...


Don't hesitate then. The tenor, Benjamin Bernheim is particularly good. Méphisto emerges as almost a completely different character in the 1859 version, the role having been written for a light character bass-baritone, a type of voice rather specific to the Opéra-Comique and the Théatre Lyrique.


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## Revitalized Classics

I picked the 1959 recording conducted by Morel at the Met, principally because of Bjorling.

As far as recordings of individual arias...
My preference for Faust is Jussi Bjorling so it is nice to have this video





Callas spoils me for pretty much everyone else





Andre Pernet is a singer I greatly enjoy as Mefistofele









Ernest Blanc as Valentin


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## Tsaraslondon

Revitalized Classics said:


> I picked the 1959 recording conducted by Morel at the Met, principally because of Bjorling.
> 
> As far as recordings of individual arias...
> My preference for Faust is Jussi Bjorling so it is nice to have this video
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Callas spoils me for pretty much everyone else
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Andre Pernet is a singer I greatly enjoy as Mefistofele
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ernest Blanc as Valentin


Great choices all. Bjoerling has always been _hors concours_ in this aria (I particularly treasure his 1939 recording).

Callas is the surprise amongst these, especially as it's quite a late recording (1963) but, a watery final top B aside, she sings quite exquisitely, finding a lightness of touch that one might have thought was beyond her by this time. In the Ballade she meticulously differentiates between Marguerite's thoughts and the strophic song she sings, carefully placing Marguerite's simplicity before us. Her innocent rapture when she opens the casket of jewels is brilliantly caught. There is charm here (a trait which often eluded her in the past) and femininity, the text clearly enunciated, the runs deftly executed. A wonderful performance.


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## Tsaraslondon

*La Cenerentola* is one of those operas that seems quite difficult to get right, though the Ponnelle film manages it pretty well and Von Stade is by far my favourite Cenerentola - ideal both vocally and physically.

For an audio version I've split my vote between Marriner, which is stylishly played and conducted and has Baltsa as possibly too strong a Cenerentola (you sometimes feel she would have just told the sisters where to get off) and Zedda with the young DiDonato who strikes me as the best Cenerentola of recent years.


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## wkasimer

Tsaraslondon said:


> Don't hesitate then. The tenor, Benjamin Bernheim is particularly good. Méphisto emerges as almost a completely different character in the 1859 version, the role having been written for a light character bass-baritone, a type of voice rather specific to the Opéra-Comique and the Théatre Lyrique.


Bernheim is particularly impressive - he actually sounds a bit like Leech did before he blew his voice out singing repertoire too heavy. I'm somewhat less impressed with Foster-Williams' devil, not because of the lack of bass weight (after all, van Dam is my favorite modern exponent of the role) - I just don't think that it's much of a voice. And while it's a very, very different opera in Rousset's version, it's a pleasure to hear a bunch of genuine Francophones.


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## SixFootScowl

La Cenerentola! Oh what to do. I only have 5 versions on CD, so it will be hard to say what is best. Abbado with Berganza is definitely an excellent set, but someone just posted the DiDonato NAXOS set that I am sampling right now, so......


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## The Conte

I will obviously have to watch the Ponelle film of Cenerentola again. I know it is good, but I wasn't sure it was quite that good.

I think Angelica is one of Rossini's most difficult roles to get the character right. She is totally different to his other creations. I prefer a plain, simple approach that brings out the simple goodness of the character. The two singers that manage that for me are Berganza on CD and Ann Murray in a production from Salzburg. Bartoli and DiDonato have plenty of character, but I find their conceptions overdone (that's not to say there aren't plenty of things to enjoy in their sets. I have Bartoli on CD and DiDonato on Blu ray). Von Stade is much better than either of those two and I enjoy the Ponelle film, but the Salzburg production has a naturalness and underplayed vibe that makes it superior for me.

N.


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## Tsaraslondon

Dame Janet Baker was not yet 30 when she made her first recording of *Dido and Aeneas* and it has remained a mainstay of the catalogue ever since. Modern instruments back then of course, but conductors like Anthony Lewis and Thurston Dart, who plays harpsichord continuo on the recording, were at the forefront of the early music revival. Baker's wonderfully sung and intensely moving portrayal of Dido spoils me for all others.

That said, I would also want a slightly more HIP performance as well and for that I turn to McGegan, who has in Lorraine Hunt Lieberson a Dido in the Baker mould. The opera stands or falls on its Dido and these are my two favourite recordings.


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## vivalagentenuova

I've only ever heard Flagstad's Dido and it was so good that I've never felt the need to hear another one.


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## Tsaraslondon

Oh dear! It seems I was the only person to vote for *Dido and Aeneas*. Are we all now running out of steam?

*Gianni Schicchi* will no doubt get a few more votes. Gobbi is _hors concours_ as far as I'm concerned and I prefer the rather more characterful earlier recording under Santini, which also has De Los Angeles as the most perfect Lauretta you could ever imagine.


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## The Conte

I've been busy the last couple of days and so didn't vote on Dido. Whilst I like Baker's Dido, I find it difficult to listen to the opera in non HIP performances. I have the lament in one of the Baker box sets. The only Dido I have is the Rene Jacobs recording, which is superb, but I don't know any others except for the Harnoncourt and so I didn't feel it was fair to vote in the end.

Now when it comes to Schichi I second the comment above. I listened to a few recordings of the opera a few months ago as I was considering getting another Trittico set and the Gobbi/De los Angeles just can't be beaten. Not only for their contribution, but the whole ensemble work together to make this recording a huge treat.

N.


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## Tsaraslondon

There aren't many recordings of Mascagni's charming *L'amico Fritz* and I expect the Gavazzeni with Pavarotti and Freni to win, but no recording of the lovely Cherry Duet has ever quite matched this wonderful recording by Tito Schipa and Mafalda Favero. Pure magic.


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## Andante Cantabile

Tsaraslondon said:


> There aren't many recordings of Mascagni's charming *L'amico Fritz* and I expect the Gavazzeni with Pavarotti and Freni to win, but no recording of the lovely Cherry Duet has ever quite matched this wonderful recording by Tito Schipa and Mafalda Favero. Pure magic.


The 1939 RAI Turin/Cetra version with Ferruccio Tagliavini and the young Magda Olivero IMO at least matches Schipa & Favero's classic one:


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## Granate

Can anyone think of a DVD version for this opera? I may lure into small Italian opera composers before turning to Bel Canto. And Mascagni and Leoncavallo are two of them.


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## Andante Cantabile

Granate said:


> Can anyone think of a DVD version for this opera? I may lure into small Italian opera composers before turning to Bel Canto. And Mascagni and Leoncavallo are two of them.


The only result yielded by search on Amazon US and UK is this (if a DVD version were to be recommended, it has to be easily available for purchase):

https://www.amazon.com/Mascagni-The...amico+fritz&qid=1598957017&s=movies-tv&sr=1-1

Unfortunately I haven't heard/seen it. You might wish to read the reviews first before deciding whether to get it.


----------



## Andante Cantabile

Granate said:


> Can anyone think of a DVD version for this opera? I may lure into small Italian opera composers before turning to Bel Canto. And Mascagni and Leoncavallo are two of them.


Alternatively, a 2016 Venice performance offered by Premiere Opera on made-to-order DVD:

https://premiereoperaintl.com/dvd13672lamicofritzmascagni.aspx


----------



## Revitalized Classics

I really enjoy the recording of L'Amico Fritz with Giacomo Aragall, Maria Chiara and Giuseppe Taddei conducted by Arena. Trouble is that it is hard to find a copy. If it was remastered and released commercially it might enjoy more attention.

Aragall & Chiara





Aragall





Chiara recorded the aria commercially


----------



## SixFootScowl

Augastine said:


> The only result yielded by search on Amazon US and UK is this (if a DVD version were to be recommended, it has to be easily available for purchase):
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/Mascagni-The...amico+fritz&qid=1598957017&s=movies-tv&sr=1-1
> 
> Unfortunately I haven't heard/seen it. You might wish to read the reviews first before deciding whether to get it.


I have that DVD and like it a lot. Sad there are no others available.

However, there is this production on You Tube with English subtitles:


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## SixFootScowl

I have six sets of L'amico Fritz on CD. Sound quality and my preferences in voices lead me to the Veronesi set with Gheorghiu and Alagna. I know the Pavarotti / Freni set is wonderful, but I just never took to Pavarotti for some reason. I have another Freni set with a different tenor. I will have to listen to all the sets now.


----------



## MAS

SixFootScowl said:


> I have six sets of L'amico Fritz on CD. Sound quality and my preferences in voices lead me to the Veronesi set with Gheorghiu and Alagna. I know the Pavarotti / Freni set is wonderful, but I just never took to Pavarotti for some reason. I have another Freni set with a different tenor. I will have to listen to all the sets now.


Sweet punishment?


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## Tsaraslondon

Augastine said:


> The 1939 RAI Turin/Cetra version with Ferruccio Tagliavini and the young Magda Olivero IMO at least matches Schipa & Favero's classic one:


Agreed. This is also quite magical. Thank you for sharing.


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## The Conte

I think the Gavazzeni is a clear winner. I also like the Alagna/Gheorghiu set, but the bittersweet Tuscan melancholy in the piece is best portrayed by Gavazzeni and Pavarotti is as proud as Freni is innocently beguiling. I also like the way that Fritz develops in Pavarotti's hands. I have also heard the old Cetra recording with Tagliavini and that is a good recording, but not essential IMO.

N.


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## Granate

Roméo et Juliette is a composition that I usually like better for the singing than the orchestral music. In this case, I turn to very obscure recordings from the Metropolitan Opera 1947 season (Björling & Sayao) and the incomplete Radio Lyrique recording (Alain Vanzo & Huguette Rivière).

You know I'm not a fan of the general work of the Alagna-Gheorghiu couple. There are still good stereo recordings, but I wanted to promote the outstanding singing of these two old performances.

I think the Mackerras Covent Garden DVD has referential singing and staging, but really unpleasant filming. Too many close-ups to a shaved Alagna who doesn't look the part (who would?) instead of wide shots of the grand theatrical staging.


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## Tsaraslondon

Most of my points for *Roméo et Juliette* go to the uncut Plasson version with Alagna and Gheorghiu as the eponymous pair. This strikes me as even better than his earlier version on which Kraus, though styish as ever, is beginning to sound too old for Romeo. Alagna, in one his best recorded roles, sounds much younger and of course his French is impeccable. I've also given a point to the Cooper for Bjørling's wonderful Romeo, but, as the performance lacks Juliette's big Act IV aria (in which Gheorghiu is particularly fine), it can't be considered a top choice. Sayão is a charming Juliette, but I doubt she would have had enough voice for it.

I saw Alagna and Vaduva in the opera at Covent Garden, a memorable occasion which we are fortunate to have on DVD. _Pace_ Granate, Alagna looked perfectly fine from the auditorium.


----------



## Granate

Tsaraslondon said:


> _Pace_ Granate, Alagna looked perfectly fine from the auditorium.


But he wasn't singing 20cm away from you! Instead that was the normal shot he had in the video! *ugh*.

I have to admit that DavidA is _sometimes_ right. But I blame it to bad filming and not really bad acting.


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## The Conte

I agree with Tsaraslondon's points and went for the same CD and DVD selection minus the Cooper. 

The other set that I like (although it is heresy to say it) is the Corelli/Freni. Freni's hugely sympathetic Juliette is often overlooked due to Corelli's oversung Romeo. Whilst he doesn't give the polished, francophone performance that Alagna gives and the set has cuts (which is why I didn't select it for the poll), his French isn't as bad as on his Carmen and Faust recordings and it is worth hearing for these two glorious voices. However, its flaws meant I couldn't even give it a low mark of points and the second Plasson is the clear winner.

N.


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## The Conte

Elisir is proving an interesting poll. That's totally expected on my part as there are so many wonderful recordings. Whilst I don't think their voices are a perfect match for the characters, I have a fondness for the Sutherland/Pavarotti set, which has vintage Decca sound and Bonynge conducts with a sense of fun. However, there are many great recordings. I particularly like the Cetra studio recording with a near ideal cast featuring Valletti and Bruscantini. (There is a superb Don Pasquale with a similar cast.) Then there is the Serafin recording, the Freni with Gedda and the Domingo and Carreras sets have their admirers. I also wouldn't be surprised if someone votes for Alagna's earlier recording as well. Of complete recordings the one that all round beats the others for me is the Pido' and the DVD presents the opera with the usual cuts and the same cast.

N.


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## SixFootScowl

I don't have a problem picking the CD for Elisir, but the DVDs are tough. Might have to post several DVDs.


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## Tsaraslondon

I've always had a great fondness for the Pritchard *L'Elisir d'Amore*, emanating, as it does, from an extremely successful production at Covent Garden. Cotrubas is a charmingly effervescent Adina, and Geraint Evans is wonderfully characterful as Dulcamara, if a little dry of voice by this time. Wixell preens brilliantly as Belcore and Domingo almost lightens his voice well, almost convincing us he is well cast as Elvino. That said, I wish the role had been given to Carreras, who sang it at Covent Garden and who is the reason I picked the Scimone as my third choice. Ricciarelli is, like Sutherland, a bit po-faced as Adina, and I prefer both Cotrubas and Devia on the Viotti, which has an excellent Elvino in the young Alagna.

Of others mentioned, the Pido reminds me that I saw Gheorghiu as Adina at Covent Garden round about the same time. She struck me as being too sophisticated for the role and I seem to remember feeling the same way when I heard the recording. The Molinari-Pradelli with Freni and Gedda is quite nice, but this was quite early for Freni and I don't think she had yet learned to project character and personality solely through sound.

As the Conte said, there are quite a few good recordings of this opera. *Don Pasquale* hasn't been quite so lucky on disc.


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## Granate

I just remember listening to this work only once because Pavarotti starred on it and I quite laughed listening to one of the scenes, I think that there's a doctor. You know, Italian. 

:lol:


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## Revitalized Classics

The Conte said:


> Elisir is proving an interesting poll. That's totally expected on my part as there are so many wonderful recordings. Whilst I don't think their voices are a perfect match for the characters, I have a fondness for the Sutherland/Pavarotti set, which has vintage Decca sound and Bonynge conducts with a sense of fun. However, there are many great recordings. *I particularly like the Cetra studio recording with a near ideal cast featuring Valletti and Bruscantini. (There is a superb Don Pasquale with a similar cast.) Then there is the Serafin recording*, the Freni with Gedda and the Domingo and Carreras sets have their admirers. I also wouldn't be surprised if someone votes for Alagna's earlier recording as well. Of complete recordings the one that all round beats the others for me is the Pido' and the DVD presents the opera with the usual cuts and the same cast.
> 
> N.


A funny thing happened today when I was re-listening to various recordings for this poll. I thought I'd sample the Noni/Valletti/Bruscantini set and I was listening to different bits and pieces for a while, thoroughly enjoying myself and thinking the sound was surprisingly good, when I recognised the voice of Giuseppe Taddei as Dulcamara... after searching around it turns out that the Urania set I was enjoying was actually the Serafin set mis-labelled. The cover looks like this - it is on Spotify and various sites







I have been listening to the _real_ Noni/ Valletti set and while I did enjoy it, I actually preferred the Serafin set which is now my preference along with the Gueden/di Stefano set


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## Revitalized Classics

Granate said:


> I just remember listening to this work only once because Pavarotti starred on it and I quite laughed listening to one of the scenes, I think that there's a doctor. You know, Italian.
> 
> :lol:


One of the first times I heard the music was a video of the funny duet with Pavarotti and Taddei


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## Revitalized Classics

Tsaraslondon said:


> I've always had a great fondness for the Pritchard *L'Elisir d'Amore*, emanating, as it does, from an extremely successful production at Covent Garden. *Cotrubas is a charmingly effervescent Adina*, and Geraint Evans is wonderfully characterful as Dulcamara, if a little dry of voice by this time. Wixell preens brilliantly as Belcore and Domingo almost lightens his voice well, almost convincing us he is well cast as Elvino.* That said, I wish the role had been given to Carreras, who sang it at Covent Garden and who is the reason I picked the Scimone as my third choice*. Ricciarelli is, like Sutherland, a bit po-faced as Adina, and I prefer both Cotrubas and Devia on the Viotti, which has an excellent Elvino in the young Alagna.
> 
> Of others mentioned, the Pido reminds me that I saw Gheorghiu as Adina at Covent Garden round about the same time. She struck me as being too sophisticated for the role and I seem to remember feeling the same way when I heard the recording. The Molinari-Pradelli with Freni and Gedda is quite nice, but this was quite early for Freni and I don't think she had yet learned to project character and personality solely through sound.
> 
> As the Conte said, there are quite a few good recordings of this opera. *Don Pasquale* hasn't been quite so lucky on disc.


There are rather intriguing videos on Youtube from Vienna with both Cotrubas and Carreras from 1982: would love to see an official release of these on DVD/Bluray. This version is not even listed on Operadis for Elisir https://www.operadis-opera-discography.org.uk/CLDOELIS.HTM or Operaclass for Jose Carreras http://www.operaclass.com/catalogo/cantante.asp?idioma=en&idCantante=820&idCat=oc









Rather confusingly, the same channel posted this scene with Carreras and Wachter, despite Wachter not being listed as Dulcamara in that run of performances with Cotrubas and Carreras: it was Giuseppe Taddei according to https://archiv.wiener-staatsoper.at/search/person/487/work/48/role/105


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## Tsaraslondon

*Un Ballo in Maschera* is one of my favourite operas and I never can decide which of Callas's two sets I prefer, the studio with Gobbi or the live one with Bastianini. Fortunately with our present voting system I don't have to choose. Callas and Di Stefano are excellent on both, but I find it very hard to turn my back on Gobbi's Renato. Bastianini is also superb, but Gobbi just breaks my heart. Simionato and Barbieri come out about even, but Gavazzeni's much more propulsive conducting might just tio the balance in favour of the live one.

I did a comparative review of the two recordings on my blog some time ago https://tsaraslondon.wordpress.com/2017/03/24/callass-two-recordings-of-un-ballo-in-maschera/


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## The Conte

I find the Callas live recording beats the studio version hands down. Yes, I prefer Gobbi over Bastianini, but only by a hair's breadth and Simionato is on a whole different level to Barbieri, as is Gavazzeni over Votto. Then there's the fact that Callas and Di Stefano are much more committed live than in the studio.

That said, the studio version is still better than any of the other options (although the Price one is very strong).

N.


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## Granate

I'm of the opposite opinion. The Gavazzeni performance is second behind the Votto studio. They are very similar to me. 

In my challenge, I listened to Votto after Gavazzeni. I preferred the slower conducting, I found Callas in slightly better vocal conditions in studio and even if Bastianini is generally a star in the production, Gobbi is a grower, especially in Act II. 

I also wanted to cast a vote for my stereo choice, which is the Solti recording in Rome with Nilsson and Bergonzi.


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## Tsaraslondon

Gardelli's 1965 set was the first truly recommendable studio recording of *Nabucco* and the performances of the two principals have not been bettered since. Souliotis is thrilling as Abigaille, if a little reckless, and indeed her rapid decline soon followed. She is not in such fabulous form in any of her subsequent recordings. Gobbi was past his best by the time he recorded this, but he brings a wealth of colour and depth to the role and is easily the most moving Nabucco on disc. Gardelli, always excellent in eary Verdi, conducts with great flair.

The Naples performance of 1949 is arguably even more thrilling and would get all my votes were it not for the atrocious sound. Callas never sang the role again, but she is stupendous, executing all the coloratura with stunning accuracy and massive force, top notes (including a huge top Eb in the duet with Nabucco) flashing out like laser beams. I doubt anyone has ever sung the role better. Bechi may not be as maginative as Gobbi, but he is in fine voice and Gui has the full measure of the score. If only it were in better sound.


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## The Conte

I think I may give all my points to the Gardelli set. The only slight drawback is that the sound doesn't have the depth of the studio recordings that came after (and this is a chorus opera, after all).

The other studio contender is the Muti set, but Manguerra is a cipher compared with Gobbi's heartrending personification of the humbled king and Scotto comes in behind Souliotis and Callas.

There are two live performances worth having. The Callas from Naples is a must for her superlative Abigaille (never equaled, let alone surpassed). Unfortunately both the sound and the rest of the cast are below par. The other one is the excitingly vulgar Souliotis/Guelfi performance at La Scala under Gavazzeni (you also get Ghiaurov's Zaccaria as a bonus). This isn't for the fainthearted (anything you can bawl, I can shout louder!)

N.


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## Granate

I didn't see the Sinopoli Deutshce Opera recording getting no more votes apart from me. Have you listened to it? How come do you only vote for the Gui in Naples and Gardelli in the Wiener Opern Orchester?

I have listened to that couple and I do find good things in the Naples performance. One is Callas and the other is the historical Viva Italia after the Va pensiero. It's a thrilling moment like I have never lived in any other Verdi performance. They had just finished WW2. The country was in shambles. I was really moved. It's a recording that must be heard even if you don't like the opera. I'm not very fond of the rest of the cast.

The Gardelli *fake Vienna Orchestra* recording for Decca had my appreciation when I listened to the opera first in 2017. When I wanted to buy a recording, I hesitated between the Gardelli and Sinopoli. I found an offer for the Sinopoli and I later had regrets. Until the week I challenged all recordings of this opera and found that even if the effort is not extraordinary, the Sinopoli recording came first. I was really disappointed with the Gardelli performance in terms of lousy orchestral playing (very poor despite the Vienesse accent), Gobbi not being in a good fit for Nabucco and Souliotis not convincing me a lot for Abigaille.


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## Tsaraslondon

Granate said:


> I didn't see the Sinopoli Deutshce Opera recording getting no more votes apart from me. Have you listened to it? How come do you only vote for the Gui in Naples and Gardelli in the Wiener Opern Orchester?
> 
> I have listened to that couple and I do find good things in the Naples performance. One is Callas and the other is the historical Viva Italia after the Va pensiero. It's a thrilling moment like I have never lived in any other Verdi performance. They had just finished WW2. The country was in shambles. I was really moved. It's a recording that must be heard even if you don't like the opera. I'm not very fond of the rest of the cast.
> 
> The Gardelli *fake Vienna Orchestra* recording for Decca had my appreciation when I listened to the opera first in 2017. When I wanted to buy a recording, I hesitated between the Gardelli and Sinopoli. I found an offer for the Sinopoli and I later had regrets. Until the week I challenged all recordings of this opera and found that even if the effort is not extraordinary, the Sinopoli recording came first. I was really disappointed with the Gardelli performance in terms of lousy orchestral playing (very poor despite the Vienesse accent), Gobbi not being in a good fit for Nabucco and Souliotis not convincing me a lot for Abigaille.


In what way is Gobbi not a good fit for Nabucco? And why does Souliotis not convince you as Abigaille? It's always struck me that, at that moment in time, she was perfect for the role - even if ultimately it wrecked her voice.


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## Granate

You got me. I'm sorry. The memory I had of that recording was much worse than the actual notes I wrote about it. It was second in my challenge but my disappointment was huge.



> C+ Not warmer so far but there is more gloss in the playing of the overture. This is too slow. Sinopoli wins this for conducting and the Muti PO for playing, so far. This barely sounds Viennese. The Chorus is a bit offputting too. I'm not finding Zaccaria strong either. Nice Ismaele, maybe a bit thin, needing more thickness. Souliotis fixes everything, but she sounds quite soft too. Abigaille shows ease in the voice. Sound effect only in the right ear. With speakers it's ok, but with headphones it's terrible. I really dislike this playing. Gobbi is in excellent state for Nabucco, except some sharps that lack weight. Beautiful Abigaille but I can't forget Dimitrova. Act II is an improvement for every part of the cast, even the orchestra. Vieni o Levita is glorious. Amazing Nabucco, without forgetting Cappuccilli. Nothing changes and this should just be a honourable mention. Great at times but I wish Decca had taken it more seriously.


I've been really pricky on the internet lately. I'm moving out, finishing my project, the deadline could be postponed...


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## The Conte

The problem I have with the Sinopoli set is that it is too smooth. Nabucco is a foot stomping crowd pleaser with a certain amount of _musica da banda_. Whilst there is a case for taking a more refined approach than most often heard (I wonder what Serafin would have done with it), Sinopoli is too polite in his set. Muti and Gardelli were early Verdi specialists and there needs to be _some_ vulgar swagger to it.

Furthermore Capuccilli isn't the right choice for Nabucco. Yes, it's nicely done, but it's too plain and subtle. Gobbi is the only baritone I've heard who fully embraces the pathos of Nabucco's humiliation and turnaround and the roughness is totally in line with the barbaric nature of the character.

N.


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## Revitalized Classics

I voted for Gardelli's set but I cannot say that _Nabucco_ has fared as well as many other Verdi operas on record: _Macbeth_, despite making similar demands, has been much luckier I think.

Gobbi is characterful which puts him ahead of Cappuccilli for me and in the absence of studio versions by Bechi, Taddei or Bastianini I'm pretty happy with his performance.

Gobbi recorded Nabucco's aria in 1955





As well as the complete opera in 1965, 





I think these samples are pretty representative of his singing at those points in his career - in the later recording the timbre of his voice is a bit drier but conversely better recorded in stereo.

I really enjoy Souliotis in this recording of the opera. I can't say that her singing is as thought-through and eloquent as Scotto and particularly Callas but it is a glamourous performance.

I'm again reminded that I really wish that we had a Gobbi/Callas/Bergonzi _Macbeth_ or _Nabucco_ even late in their careers instead of that second studio _Tosca_ but there you go...





I noticed in a chronology of Gobbi's career a 1954 performance which was _not_ recorded and rather sums up the sort of cast I wish _had_ recorded the opera at some point in the '50s:

12/16/54: Nabucco: Firenze, Teatro Comunale, Tullio Serafin conducts 
Nabucodonosor Tito Gobbi
Abigaille Anita Cerquetti
Zaccaria Boris Christoff
Ismaele Franco Albanese
Fenena Miriam Pirazzini
Il gran sacerdote di Belo Paolo Washington
Abdallo Brenno Ristori
Anna Elvira Galassi

Trouble is that if you have this sort of cast you might be tempted to record a more popular work like _Aida_.

Among more recent versions I would like to hear a recording I have read about: Zancanaro and Dimitrova with Muti live at La Scala in 1986 but it is hard to find.


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## The Conte

Revitalized Classics said:


> I voted for Gardelli's set but I cannot say that _Nabucco_ has fared as well as many other Verdi operas on record: _Macbeth_, despite making similar demands, has been much luckier I think.


I think it's swings and roundabouts (but then I am not a fan of Cappuccilli in either opera). We have Callas live in both and Souliotis in the studio. We don't have a good Gobbi Macbeth as he was ill at the time of his live recording and there isn't a studio one, of course. Muti provides a good backup in both cases. Where Macbeth wins over Nabucco is that there is both a studio and live version with Milnes.



Revitalized Classics said:


> I'm again reminded that I really wish that we had a Gobbi/Callas/Bergonzi _Macbeth_ or _Nabucco_ even late in their careers instead of that second studio _Tosca_ but there you go...
> 
> I noticed in a chronology of Gobbi's career a 1954 performance which was _not_ recorded and rather sums up the sort of cast I wish _had_ recorded the opera at some point in the '50s:
> 
> 12/16/54: Nabucco: Firenze, Teatro Comunale, Tullio Serafin conducts
> Nabucodonosor Tito Gobbi
> Abigaille Anita Cerquetti
> Zaccaria Boris Christoff
> Ismaele Franco Albanese
> Fenena Miriam Pirazzini
> Il gran sacerdote di Belo Paolo Washington
> Abdallo Brenno Ristori
> Anna Elvira Galassi
> 
> Trouble is that if you have this sort of cast you might be tempted to record a more popular work like _Aida_.
> 
> Among more recent versions I would like to hear a recording I have read about: Zancanaro and Dimitrova with Muti live at La Scala in 1986 but it is hard to find.


I think most of us would like there to have been a Callas/Gobbi Macbeth and Nabucco (however Callas wouldn't have approved it or possibly undertaken it that late, unfortunately). That Nabucco cast with Gobbi looks superb (you would need a better tenor if you were going to record Aida, though). It's interesting that Callas never recorded with Christoff (despite singing and being recorded with him live on a few occasions).

N.


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## Revitalized Classics

The Conte said:


> I think it's swings and roundabouts (but then I am not a fan of Cappuccilli in either opera). We have Callas live in both and Souliotis in the studio. We don't have a good Gobbi Macbeth as he was ill at the time of his live recording and there isn't a studio one, of course. Muti provides a good backup in both cases. Where Macbeth wins over Nabucco is that there is both a studio and live version with Milnes.
> 
> I think most of us would like there to have been a Callas/Gobbi Macbeth and Nabucco (however Callas wouldn't have approved it or possibly undertaken it that late, unfortunately). That Nabucco cast with Gobbi looks superb (you would need a better tenor if you were going to record Aida, though). *It's interesting that Callas never recorded with Christoff (despite singing and being recorded with him live on a few occasions).*
> 
> N.


Checking out the La Scala archives (http://www.teatroallascala.org/archivio) there was quite a long gap during Callas' time when Christoff did not even appear at La Scala: Feb 1954 (Faust) - Dec 1958 (Mose).

Christoff instead seems to have been, like Gobbi, more at home at the Rome Opera where he was a feature into the 1970s.

I'd have preferred him to Rossi-Lemeni in some of those roles with Callas including _Forza del Destino_, _Norma_ and _Anna Bolena_.

Would have been something of a dream team to combine the recordings of Aida from 1955:
Callas, Bjorling, Gobbi, Barbieri and Christoff.


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## Andante Cantabile

The Conte said:


> ......It's interesting that Callas never recorded with Christoff (despite singing and being recorded with him live on a few occasions).
> N.


Callas and Christoff sang together on 12 occasions according to Callas' Performance Annals compiled by Frank Hamilton. The 12 included some important performances in Callas' career, such as the 1947-48 _Tristan und Isolde_ at La Fenice Venice, the career breakthrough _I Puritani_ again at La Fenice in January 1949, the 20-21 Nov 1950 Rome RAI broadcast of _Parsifal_, the 1951 Maggio Musicale Fiorentino _Vespri siciliani_ and the world premiere of Haydn's _Orfeo ed Euridice_ also at the 1951 MMF, her formal debut as a member of the La Scala Company in _Vespri siciliani_ in Dec 1951. For unknown reasons she didn't seem to get on with Christoff and their working relationship ended extremely unpleasantly in the January 1955 Rome _Medea_, after which she never sang with him again. Here's the account given in Bob Rideout's biography of Christoff in "Opera Voices" (https://bob-opera.weebly.com):



> In early January 1955 Boris sang both Galitzky and Konchak at the Rome Opera and began rehearsals for "Medea" with Maria Callas. Callas, when told that Boris would be Creonte, protested that she should have known earlier, claiming veto rights over casting until shown her contract. Christoff protested cuts in the score, stating that he was left with one third of the role, and that he would not sing unless the cuts were restored. He furthermore asserted that the Meneghinis were behind it. Meneghini, for his part, hired a claque to disrupt Christoff''s scenes, and on the first night, 22 January, a large number of people did exactly that at the end of Creonte's invocation. There were fights in the balcony and police had to be called to the upper reaches of the theater to restore some semblance of order. Maria was protested at the end of "Deh tuoi Figli" and again, there was a delay. At the end of act two, as Maria approached the proscenium for a solo curtain call, Boris blocked her way and refused to allow her passage. "Either we all go out together, or no one goes out". The applause was frantic and interminable but no one appeared on the stage. Finally, the theater's manager explained to a large group of onlookers and reporters " Oh it's nothing serious. Just a Greco-Bulgarian war". Callas ultimately retreated to her dressing room. They completed the engagement and never sang together again.


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## Tsaraslondon

Augastine said:


> Callas and Christoff sang together on 12 occasions according to Callas' Performance Annals compiled by Frank Hamilton. The 12 included some important performances in Callas' career, such as the 1947-48 _Tristan und Isolde_ at La Fenice Venice, the career breakthrough _I Puritani_ again at La Fenice in January 1949, the 20-21 Nov 1950 Rome RAI broadcast of _Parsifal_, the 1951 Maggio Musicale Fiorentino _Vespri siciliani_ and the world premiere of Haydn's _Orfeo ed Euridice_ also at the 1951 MMF, her formal debut as a member of the La Scala Company in _Vespri siciliani_ in Dec 1951. For unknown reasons she didn't seem to get on with Christoff and their working relationship ended extremely unpleasantly in the January 1955 Rome _Medea_, after which she never sang with him again. Here's the account given in Bob Rideout's biography of Christoff in "Opera Voices" (https://bob-opera.weebly.com):


Well Christoff was known to have quite an ego. In any case, of all operas *Medea* is about the protagonist. Callas should have been able to take a solo curtain call.

I don't know if there are any stories of Christoff's generosity to colleagues, but there are of Callas's. Teresa Berganza, Jon Vickers and Giulietta Simionato always spoke highly of her. Tito Gobbi too, even after a minor altercation they had over curtain calls in Chicago, a situation easily resolved when Gobbi, rather than create an atmosphere, decided to confront her in her dressing room. They remained friends ever after.


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## Andante Cantabile

Tsaraslondon said:


> Well Christoff was known to have quite an ego. In any case, of all operas *Medea* is about the protagonist. Callas should have been able to take a solo curtain call.


I agree with RC that Christoff would have been preferable to Rossi-Lemeni in the 1954 EMI _Norma_ and _Forza _and the 1957 prima of the Visconti _Anna Bolena_. Just too bad they didn't get on. In any case, we still have valuable souvenirs of them singing together:

-the 1950 Rome RAI _Parsifal_

-the 1951 MMF _Vespri siciliani_, which is expected to be a contender in the future voting on _Vespri
_
-the 1953 Trieste _Norma_


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## The Conte

Augastine said:


> Callas and Christoff sang together on 12 occasions according to Callas' Performance Annals compiled by Frank Hamilton. The 12 included some important performances in Callas' career, such as the 1947-48 _Tristan und Isolde_ at La Fenice Venice, the career breakthrough _I Puritani_ again at La Fenice in January 1949, the 20-21 Nov 1950 Rome RAI broadcast of _Parsifal_, the 1951 Maggio Musicale Fiorentino _Vespri siciliani_ and the world premiere of Haydn's _Orfeo ed Euridice_ also at the 1951 MMF, her formal debut as a member of the La Scala Company in _Vespri siciliani_ in Dec 1951. For unknown reasons she didn't seem to get on with Christoff and their working relationship ended extremely unpleasantly in the January 1955 Rome _Medea_, after which she never sang with him again. Here's the account given in Bob Rideout's biography of Christoff in "Opera Voices" (https://bob-opera.weebly.com):


I find it interesting that Callas thought she had veto of the casting and had to be shown her contract to disprove it. Who negotiated her contract? Meneghini. Had he told her that she had a veto when she didn't? This would certainly fit in with latter statements Callas made about how she was unhappy with his management of her career.

I also find the accusation that the Meneghinis employed a claque interesting. This was something that Callas often denied and it didn't fit in with her character. Perhaps Christoff was mistaken, or perhaps Meneghini paid them without Callas' knowledge.

N.


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## Andante Cantabile

The Conte said:


> I find it interesting that Callas thought she had veto of the casting and had to be shown her contract to disprove it. Who negotiated her contract? Meneghini. Had he told her that she had a veto when she didn't? This would certainly fit in with latter statements Callas made about how she was unhappy with his management of her career.
> 
> I also find the accusation that the Meneghinis employed a claque interesting. This was something that Callas often denied and it didn't fit in with her character. Perhaps Christoff was mistaken, or perhaps Meneghini paid them without Callas' knowledge.
> 
> N.


Callas was simply too focused on the music to have any concern about whatever sort of behind-the-scenes manoeuvring. Meneghini was the one who did all the dirty work, perhaps many times without her knowledge. That probably explains why her marriage with Meneghini turned sour and she came to resent him bitterly for the way he managed her career and dealt with opera managements.


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## The Conte

The more I think about it, the more this anti Christoff claque story doesn't make sense. Why would someone playing Medea hire a claque to demonstrate against one of the other singers? A good Medea doesn't have anything to fear from the other singers and Callas was a great Medea.

N.


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## The Conte

The more I think about it, the more this anti Christoff claque story doesn't make sense. Why would someone playing Medea hire a claque to demonstrate against one of the other singers? A good Medea doesn't have anything to fear from the other singers and Callas was a great Medea.

N.


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## Tsaraslondon

After the discussion of the relative merits of Dimitrova and Souliotis as Abigaille I thought I'd listen to Abigaille's bits on the Sinopoli recording. I wondered if perhaps my memory of her performance was faulty, but, no, I was right. She might have the power but she doesn't have the technique and her execution of the notes is at best vague, especially compared to Callas, but also compared to Souliotis and Scotto. Only Callas has a real trill, but Scotto at least attempts the rising set of trills in _Salgo gia_ and Souliotis makes a nod in their direction. Dimitrova doesn't even bother with them. Furthermore, both Souliotis and Scotto are much more fleet in the florid sections of the score. Also they are both better in the Bellinian cantilena of _Anch'io dischiuso un giorno_. If I were to place the four sopranos in any order, Callas is miles ahead, followed by Souliotis with Scotto close behind. Dimitrova trails in fourth place.

Interestingly, of the four sopranos only Callas had the technique and power to sing both Abigaille and Turandot (Turandot was one of the roles she had sung most often in 1949). Neither Souliotis or Scotto attempted Turandot whereas it was a Dimitrova speciality and she is much more comfortable in the role, no doubt because the role requires power rather than flexibility.


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## Revitalized Classics

Tsaraslondon said:


> After the discussion of the relative merits of Dimitrova and Souliotis as Abigaille I thought I'd listen to Abigaille's bits on the Sinopoli recording. I wondered if perhaps my memory of her performance was faulty, but, no, I was right. She might have the power but she doesn't have the technique and her execution of the notes is at best vague, especially compared to Callas, but also compared to Souliotis and Scotto. Only Callas has a real trill, but Scotto at least attempts the rising set of trills in _Salgo gia_ and Souliotis makes a nod in their direction. Dimitrova doesn't even bother with them. Furthermore, both Souliotis and Scotto are much more fleet in the florid sections of the score. Also they are both better in the Bellinian cantilena of _Anch'io dischiuso un giorno_. If I were to place the four sopranos in any order, Callas is miles ahead, followed by Souliotis with Scotto close behind. Dimitrova trails in fourth place.
> 
> *Interestingly, of the four sopranos only Callas had the technique and power to sing both Abigaille and Turandot (Turandot was one of the roles she had sung most often in 1949). Neither Souliotis or Scotto attempted Turandot whereas it was a Dimitrova speciality and she is much more comfortable in the role, no doubt because the role requires power rather than flexibility.*




Thanks for your post. I've subsequently been checking around for singers who sang both Abigaille and Turandot. As you might expect they are not particularly numerous to start with, so far the list I've found includes:

Grace Bumbry, Maria Callas, Elizabeth Connell, Ghena Dimitrova, Marisa Galvany, Maria Guleghina, Angeles Gulin, Rita Hunter, Berit Lindholm, Emma Renzi, Leonie Rysanek, Liane Synek and Pauline Tinsley.

I don't think any of the rest challenge Callas' hegemony and the relative suitability of some of these singers for these parts is often up for debate.

I did, however, enjoy hearing some interesting recordings even if they are not necessarily world-beating: I thought I would share a few...

Rita Hunter in Nabucco (Donna che sei)





Leonie Rysanek in Turandot (In questa reggia)





Liane Synek in Nabucco (Prode guerrier) in German





Pauline Tinsley in Nabucco (Anch'io disciuso)


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## The Conte

I'm intrigued by the mention of a Gergiev Iolanta on DVD and from the Met. I had no idea that such a thing existed. Who are the singers and where is it available from?

N.


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## Tsaraslondon

I've only just listened to *Iolanta* (the Gergiev recording) for the first time and really enjoyed it. Still, I won't be voting as it's the only set I've heard so can't compare with any others. I must say I'm very surprised to find it polled so high and above the much more regularly performed *Queen of Spades*.


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## Tsaraslondon

Revitalized Classics said:


> [/B]
> 
> Thanks for your post. I've subsequently been checking around for singers who sang both Abigaille and Turandot. As you might expect they are not particularly numerous to start with, so far the list I've found includes:
> 
> Grace Bumbry, Maria Callas, Elizabeth Connell, Ghena Dimitrova, Marisa Galvany, Maria Guleghina, Angeles Gulin, Rita Hunter, Berit Lindholm, Emma Renzi, Leonie Rysanek, Liane Synek and Pauline Tinsley.
> 
> I don't think any of the rest challenge Callas' hegemony and the relative suitability of some of these singers for these parts is often up for debate.
> 
> I did, however, enjoy hearing some interesting recordings even if they are not necessarily world-beating: I thought I would share a few...
> 
> Rita Hunter in Nabucco (Donna che sei)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Leonie Rysanek in Turandot (In questa reggia)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Liane Synek in Nabucco (Prode guerrier) in German
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Pauline Tinsley in Nabucco (Anch'io disciuso)


Pauline Tinsley is very impressive here. I remember she had quite a following here in the UK.


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## The Conte

Tsaraslondon said:


> Pauline Tinsley is very impressive here. I remember she had quite a following here in the UK.


Quite a few years ago I went to a small event about the life and career of Pauline Tinsley where she was interviewed and she related an anecdote about when she was introduced to Souliotis. (It was backstage at one of Souliotis' performances - probably Nabucco). Pauline Tinsley was introduced as 'the English Abigaille'. Souliotis waved this away with a divaesque sweep and said something along the lines of, I don't really like singing, I just need the money because I like fast cars! No nonsense, Northern lass Tinsley wasn't impressed!

N.


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## Tsaraslondon

I'm guessing Gluck's *Orfeo ed Euridice* will garner few votes. It always seems to me that the opera is respected more tha it's loved. It also exists in a bewildering range of different editions.

I've gone for the Leppard with the incomparable Janet Baker as Orfeo, which sticks to the hybrid version, which incorporates Vienna, Paris and Berlioz and was the most usually performed version back then. I've also gone for a fairly new recording (2017) of the shorter original Vienna version, which is wonderfully conducted and has Iestyn Davies as a superb Orfeo.

I've also gone for the Glyndebourne DVD, which is a wonderful memento of Dame Janet's last appearances on the operatic stage.


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## The Conte

Orfeo/Orphee is a toughie! There are three versions of the work not including the hybrids and there are a wealth of good recordings since the period music explosion.

I have decided to limit myself to two versions, one of the original Italian (where Jacobs is hard to beat) and one of the Berlioz French revision. Of this latter version the main contenders are Runnicles and Gardiner and Runnicles is more incisive and has a more 'operatic' cast, which is what I want in a 19th century rewrite. My least favourite of the three different main versions is the Paris 1774 edition with a tenor, but the recording I have of that one is the Florez.

N.


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## SixFootScowl

But isn't the voting on the Gluck version? Or did Berlioz translate it?

But it looks like I have two versions Orfeo and Orphee.


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## The Conte

SixFootScowl said:


> But isn't the voting on the Gluck version? Or did Berlioz translate it?
> 
> But it looks like I have two versions Orfeo and Orphee.


The Berlioz is an arrangement of the Gluck (although it may feature an aria Berlioz wrote rather than Gluck).

Which is your Orphee and does it have a mezzo or a tenor in?

N.


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## Tsaraslondon

The Conte said:


> The Berlioz is an arrangement of the Gluck (although it may feature an aria Berlioz wrote rather than Gluck).
> 
> Which is your Orphee and does it have a mezzo or a tenor in?
> 
> N.


There's also a hybrid version, which is the one used in the Leppard and Solti recordings, which combines elements of all three versions.


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## SixFootScowl

The Conte said:


> The Berlioz is an arrangement of the Gluck (although it may feature an aria Berlioz wrote rather than Gluck).
> 
> Which is your Orphee and does it have a mezzo or a tenor in?
> 
> N.


Runnicles with Jennifer Larmore!


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## SixFootScowl

Tsaraslondon said:


> There's also a hybrid version, which is the one used in the Leppard and Solti recordings, which combines elements of all three versions.


I have Orfeo, Solti with Horne. That must be the hybrid. Now I will mark it as such.

Also have Orfeo with Forrester, Tourangeau, and Bumbry.


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## The Conte

SixFootScowl said:


> Runnicles with Jennifer Larmore!


That's the Berlioz version.

N.


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## Granate

I would love to discuss the recordings I love in one of my favourite Russian operas, Pique Dame. But today I still have to develop my video for the final proyect. I think I had written a small paragraph about my favourite recording but never posted it here.

In fact, it isn't. It's just notes and I'm now too busy to develop them. I have seen in that Pique Dame challenge (all recordings you could think of), that the Shuraitis Bavarian Opera, the Rostropovich ONF and the Jansons Bavarian Radio were almost tied. They would be my choices for the opera, but since the Shuraitis live performance released by Orfeo is much less known and has my favourite Herman (Atlantov) supported by a great cast, I would rather give my six points to it. Please, try it.


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## The Conte

Pique Dame is easy (or at least I think there is a clear winner).

N.


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## Tsaraslondon

One of my favourite operas too. It's good to see that it now finally seems to be getting the recognition it deserves.

I went for the old 1952 Melik-Pashayev, for Nelep's superb Hermann and Pavel Lisitisan's Yeletsky, but Somlenskaya isn't at all bad as Lisa. For a more modern recording, I'm happy with Gergiev's Kirov account, which has the added bonus of the superb Irina Arkhipova as the Countess. Rostropvich conducts a splendid version of the score but his account is let down by an inadequate Hermann and a Lisa who is squally and harsh toned. Vishnevskaya, whom I love as Tatyana in the Khaikin recording and as Katerina in Rostropovich's superb *Lady Macbeth of Mtsensk*, is way past her best and no ammount of intelligent phrasing can make up for the ugly sounds. People who know me will know I usually put expression ahead of beauty of tone, but here the one doesn't compensate the other.

You could argue that Marusin is similarly afflicted on the Glyndebourne DVD, but he is such a fantastic actor that I get lost in the performance as a whole. Superb performances too from Felicity Palmer, Nancy Gustavsson and Sergei Leiferkus and a brilliant production by Graham Vick with Andrew Davis in the pit.


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## Tsaraslondon

I have loved Böhm's 1962 *Così fan tutte* almost as long as I can remember and no other recording has quite pleased me in the same way. Schwarzkopf and Ludwig blend their voices perfectly and yet are brilliantly contrasted, Ludwig wonderfully flighty and Schwarzkopf majestically imperious until she is conquered by Kraus's ardent Ferrando, her moment of weakness superbly caught in a heart wrenching _Per pieta_ which leads into an intensely erotic _Fra gli'amplessi_.

I also have a soft spot for two of Colin Davis's performances, a live one from Covent Garden with Te Kanawa, Baltsa, Stuart Burrows and Thomas Allen (mostly because I saw it myself) and his earlier studio recording with Caballé and Janet Baker in a rare and extremely successful foray into comedy, but finally settled on giving all my points to the Böhm, which has a perfection in ensemble that is rarely achieved.


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## The Conte

I too have not found a recording that surpasses the 1962 Bohm. The only rival in my book would be a HIP version that offers something different in the way of orchestral texture. The Jacobs set is superb. The voices aren't as distinctive as those on the Bohm, but they blend wonderfully and the woman's voices combine to cover the lyricism of the music. However, the Bohm has it by a whisker.

N.


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## Granate

Sorry for being late. Number 60 is the position that Berg's gripping Opera Wozzeck achieved in the 2020 Opera poll, but had many more lovers in the 2015 edition. For some reason they didn't show up here. I agree with many people that it is a much easier opera to see than to just listen to. I watched a very fine Bavarian State Opera production last year on livestream, but coming to the point of listening to a single audio performace was an impossible task for me.










Even if I didn't still finish listening to this live performance, I liked what I heard here. There's also an Italian translation sung by Titto Gobbi, but many more are in original German and could be better as well. Hard for me to take.


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## Tsaraslondon

I used to have the Boulez recording on LP but I don't think I listened to it more than once or twice and felt no compunction to get a copy when I switched to CD. Not at all my cup of tea.


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## DavidA

Granate said:


> Sorry for being late. Number 60 is the position that Berg's gripping Opera Wozzeck achieved in the 2020 Opera poll, but had many more lovers in the 2015 edition. For some reason they didn't show up here. I agree with many people that it is a much easier opera to see than to just listen to. I watched a very fine Bavarian State Opera production last year on livestream, but coming to the point of listening to a single audio performace was an impossible task for me.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Even if I didn't still finish listening to this live performance, I liked what I heard here. There's also an Italian translation sung by Titto Gobbi, but many more are in original German and could be better as well. Hard for me to take.


Must confess it is neither easy to see nor to listen to. Last time I saw it I wAnted to put a gun to my head! There is enough in the world to depress us without that


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## The Conte

I love Wozzeck in performance, definitely one to see for me. However, it's not one I listen to. I have a recording with Gobbi in Italian as I wanted to hear his take on it, but it's not an opera I really listen to.

I will vote on a DVD choice, though.

N.


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## Granate

DavidA said:


> Must confess it is neither easy to see nor to listen to. Last time I saw it I wAnted to put a gun to my head! There is enough in the world to depress us without that


I admit I enjoyed watching _Wozzeck_ much more than _FROSCH._ The shorter the better.

When should we start pulling votes for two or three operas? Around 75?

Already did the list of my votes for positions 61-80 and I'm voting for 10 operas only. What about you?


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## Tsaraslondon

Granate said:


> I admit I enjoyed watching _Wozzeck_ much more than _FROSCH._ The shorter the better.
> 
> When should we start pulling votes for two or three operas? Around 75?
> 
> Already did the list of my votes for positions 61-80 and I'm voting for 10 operas only. What about you?


It's a difficult call. I have a feeling there are quite a few operas lower down in the list that will garner quite a few more votes than those above them.


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## Tsaraslondon

I'm not a big fan of *Adriana Lecouvreur*. Personally I think it's a load of old homum, but it does have some good tunes and a great part for a _verista_, not to mention good roles for tenor, mezzo-soprano and baritone (nobody quite eclipses Gobbi's heart wrenching recital version of Michonnet's _Ecco il monologo_ though).

Olivero had the composer's seal of approval and was very famous for the role, so it is only right that one of her live recordings (too bad she didn't make a studio one) be among my choices, and the Naples perfromance has the added benefit of Corelli, Simionato and Bastianini.

However, I've given more of my points to the much more comfortably recorded studio Levine, on which Scotto gives one of her greatest performances for the gramophone, at least the equal of Olivero, and in some ways slightly more refined. Domingo and Milnes are at least the equal of Corelli and Bastianini but the brash Obraztsova is easily outclassed by Simionato.


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## The Conte

I quite like Adriana and I find this difficult. My first choice is the live Naples recording, not just the greatest Adriana, but also one of the great recordings opera recordings of all time. However, I also need a studio choice due to the sound on the Rossi version. The Levine is superb, but I also like the old Cetra under Simonetto. The singers aren't big names, but they understand Cilea and Italian style. In the end the more recent set in stereo under Levine was the one I plumped for.

I'm surprised nobody else has voted for a DVD. Freni was perfect for this rep and I am surprised she didn't record it with Pavarotti. (Christa Ludwig may have made an interesting Principessa, perhaps.) In any case, the Freni live performance is a triumph!

N.


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## Granate

There are many lovers of Titto Gobbi for "Il Tabarro" by Puccini. It's an interesting work but I've never been very attracted to it. I think there are a handful of better recordings than the EMI conducted by Bellezza, especially because of the cast.

I would have been excited if EMI had signed Callas and Di Stefano to perform it.


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## Tsaraslondon

I like the opera and its bleak depiction of life on a barge in the Seine and I'm also one of those who loves Gobbi's Michele, which has never been bettered, a peformance of never ending fascination and complexity. It's amazing he can convey so much in such a short space of time. The rest of the cast is hardly up to his level, and Mas and Prandelli are not in the same class as those on other sets (Callas and Di Stefano are a tempting prospect, as Granate wickedly advocates) but Mas does sort of suggest an older woman, which works quite well in this context. Objectively, I suppose the Maazel should have been my first choice, but I find it impossible to be objective in the face of Gobbi's superb Michele, a performance to set beside his Scarpia and his Rigoletto.

That makes the Maazel my second choice. It has has the ever musical and imaginative Scotto as Giorgetta and Domingo in fine form as Luigi. Wixell is good, but not the equal of Gobbi or Milnes, who is on my other choice, the Leinsdorf. My only problem with this set is that Price, at the opposite extreme from Mas, sounds almost too glamorous and gorgeous as Giorgetta. Maazel has a tighter grasp on the score than Leinsdorf too.

Still, all three of these recordings are worthy of the piece and the Gardelli (the most successful of the three operas in his *Trittico*) isn't far behind.


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## vivalagentenuova

As a huge fan of this opera, my favorite set is Petrella/Scarlini/Reali on Preiser. Petrella is phenomenal, and uses her registers to full effect. Honestly I can't imagine a voice more suited to the role, except of course the original Giorgetta, Claudia Muzio, whose performance I would walk 10,000 miles to hear. Scarlini I have heard of nowhere else, but he does a good job. To me the role is best suited to a lyric tenor with a lot steel in the sound. The first Luigi, Crimi, seems ideal. Reali I am of two minds about. He has a rich sound, but it seems oddly off center sometimes or close to wobbly. It's not my favorite assumption of the role, though he has good moments. The original Michele was Luigi (!) Montesanto, a magnificent baritone who surely gave an incredible performance opposite Muzio. Sigh.

Other good recordings I know of are an RAI film broadcast with Petrella, Picchi, and Tagliabue, which is excellent but not available on any format I'm aware of other than YT. The Tebaldi/Del Monaco/Merrill set should be amazing, but is quite disappointing. The sound doesn't favor any of their voices, Merrill doesn't put much into his interpretation, and Gardelli's conducting is not very good (by contrast he did a wonderful job with the _Suor Angelica_ on that set). Gobbi is the only really successful part of the EMI set. There's also a shortened version of the opera where Gobbi hosts and explains his character, which is very worth watching, if only to listen to Gobbi's mellifluous speaking voice. His physical acting is excellent too.

The Pappano set has the pretty shrill Guleghina and the by this point unpleasant Schicoff, but the orchestra sounds amazing and the conducting is excellent. Guelfi as Michele is the best of the three, though hardly a Montesanto or even a Gobbi. The sound is really infinitely better than the earlier sets, and you can finally hear all the wonderful orchestral details. If only the singing were on the same level.

There's also a German language set conducted by Clemens Krauss, with Ahlersmeyer, Anders, and Ranczak. Usually I don't mind translations, but the actual rhythm of the Italian is so integral to the music and the craft of the drama in this opera that it is a huge negative. Krauss takes the music pretty slowly, which works sometimes and not at all other times. It sounds like a first attempt at the opera. The singers are pretty good.


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## The Conte

Tsaraslondon said:


> I like the opera and its bleak depiction of life on a barge in the Seine and I'm also one of those who loves Gobbi's Michele, which has never been bettered, a peformance of never ending fascination and complexity. It's amazing he can convey so much in such a short space of time. The rest of the cast is hardly up to his level, and Mas and Prandelli are not in the same class as those on other sets (Callas and Di Stefano are a tempting prospect, as Granate wickedly advocates) but Mas does sort of suggest an older woman, which works quite well in this context. Objectively, I suppose the Maazel should have been my first choice, but I find it impossible to be objective in the face of Gobbi's superb Michele, a performance to set beside his Scarpia and his Rigoletto.
> 
> That makes the Maazel my second choice. It has has the ever musical and imaginative Scotto as Giorgetta and Domingo in fine form as Luigi. Wixell is good, but not the equal of Gobbi or Milnes, who is on my other choice, the Leinsdorf. My only problem with this set is that Price, at the opposite extreme from Mas, sounds almost too glamorous and gorgeous as Giorgetta. Maazel has a tighter grasp on the score than Leinsdorf too.
> 
> Still, all three of these recordings are worthy of the piece and the Gardelli (the most successful of the three operas in his *Trittico*) isn't far behind.


There's much that I agree with here. Gobbi's Michele is such a superb achievement that the Bellezza is the winner too for me. Milnes in the Leinsdorf would be my second choice in that role, with Domingo possibly my favourite Luigi, however Price and Leinsdorf let that version down. I like Scotto, but there are always other singers I prefer in her roles. She had a perfectly balanced combination of vocal beauty, intelligent interpretation and emotional input, without excelling at either. That means that I tend to prefer either sopranos with more vocal or dramatic gifts. In this case I can't get enough of Freni's lush, rich lyrical warmth. Her 1994 set is often criticised for being recorded too late, however, the Tabarro with Pons and Giacomini is the prize of the three operas. Pons is no Milnes (let alone Gobbi), but Giacomini and Freni sound more involved and in love than any other duo in recordings of the opera. Their encounters have a sincerity that others lack.

It's a highly controversial choice, I know!

N.


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## wkasimer

Tsaraslondon said:


> I have loved Böhm's 1962 *Così fan tutte* almost as long as I can remember and no other recording has quite pleased me in the same way.


Given my aversion to Böhm in Mozart, and Schwarzkopf in virtually everything, it's no surprise that I find this recording unappealing. And as much as I admire Alfredo Kraus elsewhere, he's no Mozartean.

I didn't vote on Cosi - I don't like to vote on operas when I've only heard a handful of recordings, but I do love the Jacobs recording on Harmonia Mundi. And while it's not a popular choice, I much prefer Karajan's monaural set - even with Schwarzkopf - to the Böhm.


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## MAS

I love *Cosi Fan Tutte* very much. I "grew up" with the Böhm recording, so that's in my mind's ear as the ideal recording. I grew to love the Lombard recording for the lovely trio, Kiri Te Kanawa, Frederica Von Stade, and Teresa Stratas as the modern alternative. You can't beat those voices!


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## Revitalized Classics

Granate said:


> There are many lovers of Titto Gobbi for "Il Tabarro" by Puccini. It's an interesting work but I've never been very attracted to it. I think there are a handful of better recordings than the EMI conducted by Bellezza, especially because of the cast.
> 
> I would have been excited if EMI had signed Callas and Di Stefano to perform it.


Gobbi is terrific and a Gobbi/Callas/Di Stefano Trittico would have been really interesting.

By the way, there is a very early recording of Di Stefano in this opera from 1945 which is worth hearing for his sake despite bad sound









As much as I love Gobbi's singing, I am actually pretty hooked on Bastianini in this opera


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## The Conte

I listened to the Cetra 1957 recording yesterday and Petrella is very good (much better than Mas), I also liked Scarlini and Reali and the recording overall is very good, despite the conducting dragging in places. The main drawback is the sound which is primitive mono and is easily beaten by EMI's studios two years earlier. I much prefer Petrella over Mas, but I would love to have heard Gavazzi (another of those Cetra sopranos with a reliable technique and enough artistry to make her performances worth hearing) who I prefer over Petrella in general. (Although, as I already mentioned up thread, wouldn't it have been wonderful to be at the premiere!)

N.


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## Granate

I wished I listened to Rusalka more. I like Dvorak but this opera is not something I'm ever eager to return to. I think that the Mackerras Fleming recording is essential, gloriously sung. But I wanted to draw a point for the Vienna State Opera Neumann performance because it's a good one and provides a different but also rich interpretation.






This is the Mexican production that I watched. Decent singing and the staging and dressing is more traditional than say, the Opera de Paris with Fleming.


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## Tsaraslondon

I think the opera is gorgeous and I agree that Mackerras's 1992 recording pretty much sweeps the board, with Fleming ravishing the ear in one of her best recorded performances. That said I do have a lingering affection for the authentically 1982 Supraphon recording under Neumann, with Benackova a lovely Rusalka.


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## The Conte

Tsaraslondon said:


> I think the opera is gorgeous and I agree that Mackerras's 1992 recording pretty much sweeps the board, with Fleming ravishing the ear in one of her best recorded performances. That said I do have a lingering affection for the authentically 1982 Supraphon recording under Neumann, with Benackova a lovely Rusalka.


You took the thoughts right out of my mind!

I'm not a Fleming fan, but just last night I was telling a friend what I considered her essential recordings are (those are the exceptions where I enjoy her). They are Rusalka, Thais and Ghosts of Versailles!

N.


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## Tsaraslondon

So we come to *Die Frau ohne Schatten* and I'm guessing the main contenders will be Sawallisch and Solti. I've just been listening to the Solti and his cast is very fine, probably the best ever assembled for this opera. Orchestral playing is superb too. That said I prefer Sawallisch's way with the opera, even if his cast is not so good. It's a tough call, but I have 4 points to Sawallisch and 2 to Solti.

The opera is growing on me a bit, but it's still one I wouldn't want to listen to too often.


----------



## The Conte

Jenufa poses a problem. The recordings made before the Mackerras aren't of Janacek's score, but an edited version by Kovarovic. The Mackerras is the best recording of the original version and so is essential. However, I prefer the Jilek performance on Supraphon. Apart from feeling more authentically Czech, it is more dramatic and interesting than the more famous Decca set. Benackova is the perfect Jenufa (who I think should have a vulnerability about her that I don't get from Soderstrom) and Kniplova's Kostelnicka is among the best in the role.

I'm not really a Silja person and so that rules the Glyndebourne DVD out for me (it also wears its age badly). Instead I've gone for the Loy production from Berlin with Kaune and Larmore in the key roles. This is a bright, fresh production that tells the story intelligently and is overall well sung and conducted.

N.


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## Tsaraslondon

*Thais* is easy. The Fleming recording completely outclasses all that went before, with Fleming simply superb in the title role. Of the other recordings I know, Doria is too fluttery, Moffo practically voiceless and Sills thin toned and way past her best.

The first thing I ever heard from the opera was Leontyne Price's glorious rendition of "Dis-moi que je suis belle" but I think Fleming might even top that. That said I have serious reservations about the opera itself, an over-sentimental dose of quasi religiosity churned out to please the public. Massenet, who was not a religious man, said himself that his one reason for composing it andothers in a similar vein was the financial rewards their popularity brought him. There are enough good tunes to keep me interested but I really can't take it seriously.


----------



## Granate

In terms of performance, I might prefer the Metropolitan DVD performance to the earlier Abel Bordeaux CD. Hampson marks the best Athanael rendition in this later New York performance rather than the earlier.

I wish I could like a bit of the Maazel London recording, but the orchestra and him are the only ones worth mentioning. The three stars underperform. I would understand that in the case of Sills and Gedda, but it's Sherrill Milnes who annoys me: vocally dull and in horrible French around the same year he recorded a legendary Rigoletto for the same label.

About the notable _Jenufa_ opera. Have you listened to the Gregor Prague recording with a complete Czech cast? I prefer the playing and the singing a good deal compared to the Mackerras in Vienna. I would understand that you might still prefer the Mackerras, but I just want to know if you bothered to ever try the Gregor EMI recording.

Oh, ok. Which ommisions are present in Mackerras and not in the previous ones like Gregor?


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## The Conte

Granate said:


> In terms of performance, I might prefer the Metropolitan DVD performance to the earlier Abel Bordeaux CD. Hampson marks the best Athanael rendition in this later New York performance rather than the earlier.
> 
> I wish I could like a bit of the Maazel London recording, but the orchestra and him are the only ones worth mentioning. The three stars underperform. I would understand that in the case of Sills and Gedda, but it's Sherrill Milnes who annoys me: vocally dull and in horrible French around the same year he recorded a legendary Rigoletto for the same label.
> 
> About the notable _Jenufa_ opera. Have you listened to the Gregor Prague recording with a complete Czech cast? I prefer the playing and the singing a good deal compared to the Mackerras in Vienna. I would understand that you might still prefer the Mackerras, but I just want to know if you bothered to ever try the Gregor EMI recording.
> 
> Oh, ok. Which ommisions are present in Mackerras and not in the previous ones like Gregor?


I don't think the difference with the Mackerras is that it has extra music, but it's the instrumentation which is different. (Janacek's original was smoothed over in the revision as his originality of style was thought to be 'bad' composing!) I have listened to the Gregor in comparison to the Jilek and I preferred the later due to Benackova and Kniplova being perfect for their respective roles and it is just as authentically Czech as the EMI one.

N.


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## The Conte

Tsaraslondon said:


> *Thais* is easy. The Fleming recording completely outclasses all that went before, with Fleming simply superb in the title role. Of the other recordings I know, Doria is too fluttery, Moffo practically voiceless and Sills thin toned and way past her best.
> 
> The first thing I ever heard from the opera was Leontyne Price's glorious rendition of "Dis-moi que je suis belle" but I think Fleming might even top that. That said I have serious reservations about the opera itself, an over-sentimental dose of quasi religiosity churned out to please the public. Massenet, who was not a religious man, said himself that his one reason for composing it andothers in a similar vein was the financial rewards their popularity brought him. There are enough good tunes to keep me interested but I really can't take it seriously.


Much I agree with here. I much prefer listening to the opera than seeing it as the action moves quite slowly and not much happens. I can save time in the voting by just copying and pasting your response!

N.


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## SixFootScowl

Well, there are a lot of operas coming up that I have no interest in for one reason or another, but where is the list of operas so I can see when another one I am interested in is coming up. That would give me something to look forward to besides my daily dose of dark chocolate candy bar, double chocolate chip cookies, and chocolate ice cream (spaced out through the day of course).


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## Tsaraslondon

SixFootScowl said:


> Well, there are a lot of operas coming up that I have no interest in for one reason or another, but where is the list of operas so I can see when another one I am interested in is coming up. That would give me something to look forward to besides my daily dose of dark chocolate candy bar, double chocolate chip cookies, and chocolate ice cream (spaced out through the day of course).


The TC Top 200 Recommended Operas (2020 Version)

It's a pinned post on the opera forum just below Miscellaneous Opera related Chat


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## SixFootScowl

Tsaraslondon said:


> The TC Top 200 Recommended Operas (2020 Version)
> 
> It's a pinned post on the opera forum just below Miscellaneous Opera related Chat


Thanks. My mother would have said to me, "If it was a dog it would have bit you."


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## VitellioScarpia

Interesting to notice that there were no posts favoring recordings of _Thais_ prior to Fleming's Met (DVD) and studio Bordeaux (CD) forays. I want to bring to this group the recording made by Radio France in 1959 with Andrée Esposito and Robert Massard in mono. Massard is a much better Athanael than Hampson who cannot begin to approach the french style of singing, nor offer attractive vocalism. Esposito is a lighter Thais than Fleming but, as opposed to today's _coloraturas_ and _leggieros_, she sports a credible chest voice and uses it tastefully and effectively. Her sounds are not as luscious as Fleming's but it is an attractive sound and character. I think that the recording merits a spin by this group.

Traveling back, I wish the Decca and the Met had recorded either Gerald Finley or Peter Mattei along with Fleming. There's a 2007 broadcast of Thais with Fleming and Finley conducted by Eschenbach from Paris which is superb (I recorded it off the air on a lucky evening). I do not know if it has been published. Hampson did a one-two punch by ruining (for me) both Thais recordings with his opaque singing and one-fits-all-tortured male characters. I guess that Mr. Hampson's art eludes me completely: I find his voice hard, tired sounding, and his _kunst_ makes me feel "lectured" by the _ artiste_.


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## Tsaraslondon

When do we get to vote on *Les Troyens*?


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## Granate

Apologies to all. I've been 20 hours without opening the laptop. I had to wake up at 7:30 on a Saturday to go to my friend's house for a shooting that we have finished at 7pm. I had to work out and then cook dinner. Then washing up I remembered that I should have opened the new round. I was going to do it yesterday night but I forgot.

I'll open it already and pull the usual two days. I haven't stopped doing things the whole week.


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## The Conte

Granate said:


> Apologies to all. I've been 20 hours without opening the laptop. I had to wake up at 7:30 on a Saturday to go to my friend's house for a *shooting* that we have finished at 7pm. I had to work out and then cook dinner. Then washing up I remembered that I should have opened the new round. I was going to do it yesterday night but I forgot.
> 
> I'll open it already and pull the usual two days. I haven't stopped doing things the whole week.


 Please tell me this refers to filming? (Or are you a contract killer!?)

N.


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## Granate

Yes Conte, a photo shoot. Thank you bang bang.


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## Tsaraslondon

So finally we come to one of my absolute favourite operas (it pains me to see it so low down the list).

I've loved the first Colin Davis recording as long as I've known the opera and, though many thought the second recording with the LSO topped it, I retain my affection for the first, not least for Vickers as Aeneas and Veasey as Dido. Ultimately I might wish that Janet Baker had been engaged for the recording, but on her own terms Veasey is still very fine. It hardly needs be said that Davis understand the score like no other. Until, that is, Nelson came along. Nelson too had conducted the opera many times before making his recording and his cast is, all round, probably better than Davis's, with no real weaknesses. 

Therefore I have split my points between the two recordings. If the Nelson should now be considered the prime recommendtation, I could never be without the first Davis.

I would also never be without Janet Baker's recording of the final scenes under Alexander Gibson. Every inch the queen, she is regal but intensely human and shatteringly moving. Anyone who loves this opera needs her recording as a supplement.


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## The Conte

Troyens is one of those operas (like Tristan) that I admire more than I enjoy. I'm not sure why, but for years the only recording I had heard was the Dutoit and whilst it isn't bad, it's probably the least appealing of the studio sets. Davis and Nelson have a much better understanding of Berlioz. Of the two Davis ones, I prefer the more recent with the LSO as I don't like Lindholm and Vickers oversings on the studio recording. (I am a huge fan of Vickers and so I was surprised by his lack of style to my ear.) Fortunately we have the Nelson version that is perfection in my book and so I have voted for that one.

On DVD I went for the Pappano. There is an old Met DVD with Domingo, Troyanos and Norman in her element, but I was slightly underwhelmed by Domingo and Troyanos. There's nothing wrong with them, but I feel they could have given more. The ROH film with Hymel, Antonacci and Westbroek captures three good singers who have upped their game and who all suit their roles to a T. The production by McVicar is fresh and imaginative without any of the hackneyed tropes of contemporary opera directing.

I can only second the point above about Baker in her recording of key arias from the opera, it's an essential accompaniment to any complete recording of the work.

N.


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## Tsaraslondon

The Conte said:


> Of the two Davis ones, I prefer the more recent with the LSO as I don't like Lindholm and Vickers oversings on the studio recording. (I am a huge fan of Vickers and so I was surprised by his lack of style to my ear.) Fortunately we have the Nelson version that is perfection in my book and so I have voted for that one.


As you know, we had one of our rare disagreements aboutVickers's Aeneas and he is one of the main reasons I ultimately prefer Davis's first version to his second. I also much prefer Veasey to De Young, whose voice develops a distracting vibrato when under pressure. Veasey is a good deal firmer and of course had quite a bit of stage experience of the role, having sung it so many times at Covent Garden. Lindholm is a bit of a problem on the first, but, though not as good as Lang on the second, I don't think she is as bad as people make out. All in all I prefer the cast of the first recording, though both have their weaknesses.



The Conte said:


> I can only second the point above about Baker in her recording of key arias from the opera, it's an essential accompaniment to any complete recording of the work.
> 
> N.


I have a live Davis performance from Covent Garden at which Baker deputises for Veasey, who was ill. Baker was singing the role of Didon with Scottish Opera at the time, but they were performing it in English and she had no time to learn in in French, so she sings in English whilst the rest of the cast sing in French. It is otherwise substantially the same cast as the studio recording, but Silja is the Cassandre. Regardless of the language it is a thrilling performance and makes one doubly regretful that Baker was not on the studio recording.

A couple more performances of interest.

There is a Met relay with Lorraine Hunt Lieberson in the Baker class as Didon. Unfortunately Levine proves not to be a good Berlioz conductor and the rest of the cast is not as good as it promises to be.

Prêtre isn't much of a Berlioz conductor either, which is a shame because he conducts a live radio performance from Rome. It is heavily cut, but has Horne as Cassandre, Verrett as Didon and Gedda as Enée. What a shame they didn't record it under happier circumstances.


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## Tsaraslondon

Despite singing the opera in English, Baker has always been my go to Maria Stuarda and I went for the earlier of her two recordings, which was issued by Ponto, though I think it's now available on Opera Depot. Rosalind Plworight is excellent on the second recording, but I think Pauine Tinsley is even better and Baker is in slightly fresher voice. The great confrontation scene is absolutely thrilling with Baker evincing an almost Callas-like intensity when she denounces Elisabeth as a harlot. On the other hand the sound is better on the second and, to quote *The Beggar's Opera*,

"How happy could I be with either
Were t'other dear charmer away."

However, as I can have the Baker/Plowright on DVD, I made the earlier version my first choice on CD.

My second choise is the La Scala performance with Caballé most affecting as Maria and Verrett almost stealing the honours as Elisabetta.

None of the studio performances, as far as I'm concerned, are on the same level, though Pavarotti makes an excellent Leicester on the Sutherland.


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## The Conte

Fascinating choices for Stuarda. (I would have expected the Sutherland to win due to it being a studio recording.)

Like many others the Caballe live one is my favourite, but I like Sutherland and Pavarotti and it's good to hear it in glorious Decca sound, so I had to include both. None of the other recordings quite convince me with many Stuardas being underpowered. I also don't think there is a satisfactory version on DVD.

N.


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## The Conte

Lady Macbeth is very much a DVD opera for me so I am not sure whether to vote on that category or not. I'm not going to vote for a CD choice.

N.


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## Tsaraslondon

After all Granate's hard work, I am sorry that the 2020 Poll has elicited so few votes, even in operas that might be considered quite popular, so I am ssuming not many will vote for *Billy Budd*.

I came quite late to this wonderful opera, thinking I would not enjoy an opera with no female voices. I was so wrong. My first version was Britten's own, which still stands up very well with Pears repeating the role he created, but quite a few other versions have appeared since then and all of them have something to offer. Indeed I was at one of the performances when the Harding version was recorded in 2007 and it was a superb performance.

However, ultimately I've decided to give all my points to the Hickox, which has stunning Chandos sound and a cast that could hardly be bettered. I definitely prefer Langridge's De Vere to Bostridge's occasionally effete interpretation.

I haven't seen any of the DVD versions, but there are quite a few tempting prospects.


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## The Conte

Billy Budd has done well on disc and DVD and I will definitely be voting. Which DVD to choose though, the excellent ENO or the superb Glyndebourne?

N.


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## Tsaraslondon

The Conte said:


> Billy Budd has done well on disc and DVD and I will definitely be voting. Which DVD to choose though, the excellent ENO or the superb Glyndebourne?
> 
> N.


I haven't seen either, but the Glyndebourne tempts me because of Langridge and Thomas Allen.


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## Tsaraslondon

I don't often listen to *Andrea Chénier* as it's not a great favourite of mine. I think I've only seen it once, in a rather splended production from Covent Garden with Carreras and Rosalind Plowright, which was immensely enjoyable. It definitely works well in the theatre. I've opted for the Levine as representing the best all round option. I've no doubt Corelli will score highly but I didn't much like his studio effort and I haven't heard the live ones (I see there's a performance from Vienna with Tebaldi and Bastianini, which could be worth seeking out).

The live 1955 La Scala performance under Votto is very exciting but the sound is execrable and I've never heard a decent version. Del Monaco, who decided he was too ill to sing Manrico, sounds absolutely fine to me and the audience go wild after all his solos. In fact the audience is a palpable presence throughout, even giving the Madelon of Lucia Danieli a rousing reception. Callas is good but wasted really in a role she learned in a few days, having of course been originally engaged to sing Leonora in *Il Trovatore*. She never sang it again.


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## The Conte

Tsaraslondon said:


> I haven't seen either, but the Glyndebourne tempts me because of Langridge and Thomas Allen.


There must be more than one Glyndebourne one. I was thinking of the latest one with Imbrailo in.

Then I became too busy to vote!

N.


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## The Conte

Tsaraslondon said:


> I don't often listen to *Andrea Chénier* as it's not a great favourite of mine. I think I've only seen it once, in a rather splended production from Covent Garden with Carreras and Rosalind Plowright, which was immensely enjoyable. It definitely works well in the theatre. I've opted for the Levine as representing the best all round option. I've no doubt Corelli will score highly but I didn't much like his studio effort and I haven't heard the live ones (I see there's a performance from Vienna with Tebaldi and Bastianini, which could be worth seeking out).
> 
> The live 1955 La Scala performance under Votto is very exciting but the sound is execrable and I've never heard a decent version. Del Monaco, who decided he was too ill to sing Manrico, sounds absolutely fine to me and the audience go wild after all his solos. In fact the audience is a palpable presence throughout, even giving the Madelon of Lucia Danieli a rousing reception. Callas is good but wasted really in a role she learned in a few days, having of course been originally engaged to sing Leonora in *Il Trovatore*. She never sang it again.


This echoes my own feelings. The Vienna set with possibly the best all round trio of principals is indeed well worth seeking out. In fact I gave it two points whilst awarding the Levine 4.

N.


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## Tsaraslondon

The Conte said:


> There must be more than one Glyndebourne one. I was thinking of the latest one with Imbrailo in.
> 
> Then I became too busy to vote!
> 
> N.


Sorry I meant the ENO one. That's Thomas Allen and Langridge.


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## The Conte

Tsaraslondon said:


> Sorry I meant the ENO one. That's Thomas Allen and Langridge.


That makes sense and it's a wonderful performance. The Glyndebourne one was also of a very high standard, it's great that the opera has been served so well on CD and DVD.

N.


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## Tsaraslondon

I'm afraid I've never seen or heard *Khovanschina* so won't be able to vote. The only recording I can find on Spotify is Gergiev, whilst the iTunes store only lists Abbado. Not easy to find then.


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## The Conte

Tsaraslondon said:


> I'm afraid I've never seen or heard *Khovanschina* so won't be able to vote. The only recording I can find on Spotify is Gergiev, whilst the iTunes store only lists Abbado. Not easy to find then.


It's well worth a listen (although nowhere near as memorable as Godunov). It's not one of my favourites and I find it hard to choose between the Gergiev and Abbado both on CD and DVD.

N.


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## Tsaraslondon

The Conte said:


> It's well worth a listen (although nowhere near as memorable as Godunov). It's not one of my favourites and I find it hard to choose between the Gergiev and Abbado both on CD and DVD.
> 
> N.


Presto Classical does't have either recording listed, nor any other. After a time when so many titles were being reissued, at least as downloads, it seems more and more of the classical back catalogue is being deleted.


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## Granate

Tsaraslondon said:


> I'm afraid I've never seen or heard *Khovanschina* so won't be able to vote. The only recording I can find on Spotify is Gergiev, whilst the iTunes store only lists Abbado. Not easy to find then.


I've found in my browser many more recordings of the opera. Furthermore, two years ago, or more, I wrote an essay about the discography of this great opera (in my opinion) that I never bothered to post here. I'll do it inmediately on another thread and vote.

I was going to draw 3 points each for Khaikin Bolshoi and Gergiev Mariinsky, but if no one can think about a better choice, I'll place one more point for Khaikin.

*Mussorgsky's Khovanshchina challenge*


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## SixFootScowl

I have three CD recordings (Tchakarov, Gergiev, and Leskovich), but have hardly listened to them, and one DVD in my unwatched pile, so am unqualified to vote.


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## mparta

Wow, lots of chat without anything to do with what we'd like to share.
Can we just start with 10 and go from there?


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## mparta

Or maybe I missed it somehow? I guess the recent Khovanschina posts are the thread.
Even having been at this for a few decades now with quite a few performances and piles and piles.. and you get it, lps and cds, the list does evolve, sometimes related to the real performances, sometimes to recorded jewels that I've missed.
The Monteverdi anniversary of a couple of years ago, with Gardiner's performance of the three operas, led me to try to reevaluate, and I ended up with a new favorite, which won't be to everyone's taste.
Monteverdi, Il Ritorno d'Ulisse, the Leppard/Von Stade/Stilwell. Not really HIP to say the least, and containing what I guess must be an interpolation that is usually omitted (a completion of the scene in which Penelope replies to the boys return to describe his encounter with Helen and that Ulisses is alive). That scene is some of the most gorgeous and moving singing by Von Stade that I know. Life changing.
And rather than 10, right now, just a new encounter with a piece that suffered from non-HIP performance, by which I mean Verdi singers in Rossini, Barbiere di Siviglia. Much enthusiasm for the Naxos with Vargas an incredible Almaviva, good Ganassi and Frontale, until....
the new Naxos arrived, a Paris DVD production with singers new to me and Le Cercle de L'Harmonie. World beating freshness in the singing. This will play for days.
Hope this doesn't ruin the intention of the posts but it's a start of favorites.


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## Granate

mparta said:


> Wow, lots of chat without anything to do with what we'd like to share.
> Can we just start with 10 and go from there?


Hello mparta and welcome to Talk Classical. This is the discussion thread about a poll that was planned more than one year ago, and it's currently in the second half of the last phase (voting favourite recordings of each opera). Yo are late for the Most recommended Opera poll, but you could still take part in this recordings poll. Or we could discuss if we could open another chance for members to vote recordings from all operas, seeing the low participation rate of this poll.


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## Tsaraslondon

Saint-Saëns's most famous opera has not been particularly well served on disc and I'm not sure if there is an out and out winner. I assume many will go for the Chung, but I'm afraid I just don't like Meier's Dalila. The Prêtre has Vickers, who is thrilling but somewhat idiosyncratic, but here again I don't much like the matronly Dalila of Rita Gorr. Anyway, I can have Vickers on video with Verrett, who is my favourite Dalila.

At various times I have owned the Patanè with Ludwig and King, the Prêtre and the later Davis with Cura and Borodina, but ultimately I have come down in favour of Davis's earlier recording. Carreras is a bit past his best and the role is no doubt a notch too big for him, but there is no doubting his sincerity and involvement and Baltsa is my favourite of all the Dalilas on CD, sounding both dangerous and seductive. Estes has had a fair amount of criticism, but his powerful bass sounds just right to me.

As and adjunct I would always also want by me Callas's singing of Dalila's three arias, as close as we are ever likely to get to an ideal.


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## Tsaraslondon

I saw *La Fille du Régiment* in July of 2019 at the Royal Opera House, Covent Garden in the same production I chose as my favourite DVD version of the opera and it was a thoroughly enjoyable evening in the theatre. Javier Camarena, who played Tonio, was absolutely amazing in _Ah, mes amis_ and was forced to encore the aria, meaning that during the course of the evening he sang eighteen top Cs! Sabine Devieilhe was vocally stunning and also a superb actress.

Today I've been listening to the recording with Kraus and Anderson and, enjoyable though it is, it isn't really a patch on the Sutherland recording, which is easily a top choice for the opera. If I were being picky I'd want Sutherland's diction to be clearer (what a joy it was to hear Devieilhe's way with the text) and Pavarotti to have better French pronunciation, but the singing of both of them is pretty stunning.


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## mparta

I heard Camarena last year in I Puritani, really lovely, and Devielhe in Rameau, spectacular.
I do think that goes to the odd argument that all singing is the same. Not true, wouldn't want to hear Melchior in I Puritani or Camarena sing Tannhauser (hilarious, yes? lol)
I loved Sutherland when I first came to her recordings for the beauty of the voice (indisputable) and the facility (matched now by quite a few) and range. The range in particular gets to a theater issue, which is that her voice was beautiful and BIG and still moved. Not a combination to be had often, if ever with that quality. But I have lost my taste for the mush and it actually makes me lose interest in her. 
Interesting that she could do it when she wanted. Of all the odd things, I think her Turandot is a knockout and has one of those special moments, when she spits fire with "La speranza che delude sempre!" Whoa!!


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## The Conte

I'm really pleasantly surprised by the range of recordings chosen for Fille. I had thought it would be a straight no contest with Sutherland/Pavarotti and Dessay/Florez sweeping the board.

N.


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## SixFootScowl

The Conte said:


> I'm really pleasantly surprised by the range of recordings chosen for Fille. I had thought it would be a straight no contest with Sutherland/Pavarotti and Dessay/Florez sweeping the board.
> 
> N.


I had to include the Dessay/Florez because Florez does so nicely with those hi Cs and Dessay is the perfect tomboy daughter of the regiment. But I do love the Devia set and Tonio in that video reminds me visually of Neil Young for some reason. Then the Sills, sung-in-English video is totally awesome.


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## Granate

I'm happy to see no one complained about the poll being late. This is not the same situation as the Lockdown or the same process as the Opera Poll. You can vote for _Giulio Cesare_ for the next two days. Apologies.


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## Tsaraslondon

There are quite a few good recordings of Handel's *Giulio Cesare* so choice is quite difficult. In the end, reluctantly putting aside the Jacobs, I gave equal points to Minkowski, Petrou and Mackerras's English language version with Janet Baker and Valerie Masterson.

That sumptuous production (oh those were the days at the ENO) is one of my choices for a DVD version, the other being the splendid Glyndebourne version with Sarah Connolly and Danielle de Niesse.

There is also an excellent disc of excerpts with Sutherland and Horne, even if it's style recalls another era. It is now available coupled to Sutherland's recording of *Alcina*.


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## The Conte

There _are_ quite a few good recordings of Giulio Cesare and a number of viable options on DVD especially. Whilst I prefer a mezzo in the title role, Scholl has made the role his own and is best heard in his earlier performance when he was fresher of voice. The production is more sympathetic (although full of many a hackneyed trope) than the one from Salzburg. You also get the superb Inger Dam Jensen as Cleopatra (possibly my favourite performance of that role).

When it comes to CD Jacobs is still my goto set. Baker is peerless in Handel, but her version being in English counts against it being a favourite for me. Larmore isn't as stylish, but her virtuoso singing does have all the swagger of this Roman hero and so she too is in a class of her own.

N.


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## Tsaraslondon

The 1984 Covent Garden porduction of *I Capuleti e i Montecchi* was such a massive success that EMI made a last minute decision to make a recording. This meant that it was something of a rush job and the sound on that set is not particularly good, which is why I made it my second choice. The singing from Baltsa and Gruberova is excellent, though and Muti's conducting exciting but warmly Italianate as well.

My all time favourite recording however remains the Patanè. I often find Sills' voice too pallid and I do think it's much too light for roles like the Donizetti Tudor Queens, and certainly for Norma, but she suits the girlish character of Giuietta. Furthermore her musicality and dramatic commitment means that she creates a most sympathetic character. Baker was an unexpected choice for Romeo but an inspired one. We may not necessarily associate Baker with _bel canto_ opera but one of her first international successes was singing the role of Smeton in a concert performance of *Anna Bolena* at Carnegie Hall and *Maria Stuarda*, one of her greatest roles, was one of the roles she chose to perform in the year she retired from the operatic stage (she would continue performing as a recital artist for another ten years).


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## Tsaraslondon

There seem to be great deal more unofficial recordings of Verdi's *Ernani*, but, as it's not one of my favourite early Verdis, I haven't heard any of them, only the three commercially released recordings - the early Cetra, the Schippers and the Muti which was recorded by EMI at live performances at La Scala. None of these quite fulfils the need for four great singers, but I choose the Schippers for Price's gorgeously sung Elvira and Bergonzi's stylish Ernani. The lower voices aren't quite in their class, but are more than adequate.

I don't know if Ponselle, Caruso, Ruffo and Pinza ever sang the opera together, but it really need voices like theirs.


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## mparta

With regard to I Capuletti...I've been listening to quite a bit of Donizetti and Beliini lately, which runs into the Beverly Sills question.
Some wonderful singing but often gives me the sense that the voice is somehow not right, especially when I have an alternative performance from any more Italianate singer, which generally means Callas and Scotto, occasionally Caballe. I find Gruberova's voice to be colorless, not as unattractive as June Anderson, for instance, but without inherent vibrancy. Well used but the tone (not the pitch) is flat.
That said.... Sills' Bellini and Donizetti heroines disc, the old one (Capitol?) has what I hear as one of the single greatest performances of any piece of music, her Giulietta Eccomi in lieta vesta/O Quante Volte. She spins a slow ascending roulade towards the end that embodies the lyric (sospir) in a way few other performances of anything do (Callas Gioir from Sempre Libera).
By the way, I learned from a Caballe recital at La Scala that Quante Volte is a remake, much altered, of an aria from Adelson e Salvini (?), not a work I've encountered. Caballe is exquisite in a different fashion than Sills.


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## Tsaraslondon

mparta said:


> With regard to I Capuletti...I've been listening to quite a bit of Donizetti and Beliini lately, which runs into the Beverly Sills question.
> Some wonderful singing but often gives me the sense that the voice is somehow not right, especially when I have an alternative performance from any more Italianate singer, which generally means Callas and Scotto, occasionally Caballe. I find Gruberova's voice to be colorless, not as unattractive as June Anderson, for instance, but without inherent vibrancy. Well used but the tone (not the pitch) is flat.
> That said.... Sills' Bellini and Donizetti heroines disc, the old one (Capitol?) has what I hear as one of the single greatest performances of any piece of music, her Giulietta Eccomi in lieta vesta/O Quante Volte. She spins a slow ascending roulade towards the end that embodies the lyric (sospir) in a way few other performances of anything do (Callas Gioir from Sempre Libera).
> By the way, I learned from a Caballe recital at La Scala that Quante Volte is a remake, much altered, of an aria from Adelson e Salvini (?), not a work I've encountered. Caballe is exquisite in a different fashion than Sills.


I tend to feel the same way you do about both Gruberova and Sills but, paradoxically, I like them both as Giulietta. I'm just listening to the Muti set of *I Capuleti e i Montecchi* at the moment and Gruberova sings with a range of colour I'm not usually used to from her. Hong, on the Runnicles recording, is the voice that sounds colourless to me. I remember that old Sills recital and I also recall that Giulietta's aria was the finest thing on it. By the time of the Patanè complete recording the voice had thinned out a bit, but it's still an excellent performance.

As a footnote, a friend of mine who saw Baltsa and Gruberova at Covent Garden said they were both thrilling in the house. However he went to the revival of the production the following year, which starred Ricciarelli and Troyanos and said he thought it even finer. Some years later I heard Ricciarelli in a concert with orchestra at the Barbican, at which she sang _bel canto_ arias in the first half and _verismo_ in the second. I always thought she was more suited to _bel canto_ and indeed Giulietta's _Quante volte_ was the highlight of the evening, a performance so exquisite that she encored it at the end of the evening. I can well believe she would have been wonderful in the role on stage.


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## The Conte

Tsaraslondon said:


> I don't know if Ponselle, Caruso, Ruffo and Pinza ever sang the opera together, but it really need voices like theirs.


Caruso died on 2 August 1921 and Elvira in Ernani didn't enter into Ponselle's rep until 8 December that year, so they didn't get to sing it together. Ernani was sung by Martinelli and he sang the title role in most of her performances (although Jagel sang the part in her final two performances). However, there was one performance on 17 December 1928 with Martinelli, Ponselle, Ruffo and Pinza conducted by Vincenzo Bellezza (most of Ponselle's performances in this opera were with Giuseppe Danise and Jose Mardones in the baritone and bass parts).

When it comes to recordings of the opera I've listened to most of them at one time or another. The Cetra is ok, but lacks truly great voices that are needed to make the piece work (the music and libretto aren't enough on their own). The Muti is good, but Freni (a soprano I'm very fond of and seem to like more than most here) is totally miscast. Bruson gives the performance of his life, though. That leaves the Schippers which I think is a very good studio version and it's complete. I choose to supplement that set with a live performance from the Met with a near ideal cast: Corelli, Price, Sereni and Siepi. The sound is good and there are cuts, but between them I feel that they give us a decent listening experience as far as this opera is concerned.

N.


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## The Conte

mparta said:


> By the way, I learned from a Caballe recital at La Scala that Quante Volte is a remake, much altered, of an aria from Adelson e Salvini (?), not a work I've encountered. Caballe is exquisite in a different fashion than Sills.


Yes, it is. Bellini reused much of his music from his first two operas, I imagine much in the same way that Rossini salvaged what he could from works he knew wouldn't last the test of time. That said, if you like Bel Canto and Bellini I can thoroughly Adelson, especially as there is a superb recording on Opera Rara.

I generally agree with the comments about Sills and Gruberova, however, I find Sills lack of anything that can be described as italianate rules her out. Perhaps Manon was her greatest role? I find Gruberova more convincing and the recording with Baltsa is a must (its one drawback is the sound). The Muti is the most dramatic of the main contenders (not surprising since it is a live performance), however, the Runnicles is full of drama and therefore it's my favourite of the studio offerings. I think the role of Romeo is key and I like a full bodied sound in the part. Larmore takes the gold medal when it comes to having the big, full, heroic sound needed and fulfilling its dramatic requirements.

N.


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## Tsaraslondon

The Conte said:


> Yes, it is. Bellini reused much of his music from his first two operas, I imagine much in the same way that Rossini salvaged what he could from works he knew wouldn't last the test of time. That said, if you like Bel Canto and Bellini I can thoroughly Adelson, especially as there is a superb recording on Opera Rara.
> 
> I generally agree with the comments about Sills and Gruberova, however, I find Sills lack of anything that can be described as italianate rules her out. Perhaps Manon was her greatest role? I find Gruberova more convincing and the recording with Baltsa is a must (its one drawback is the sound). The Muti is the most dramatic of the main contenders (not surprising since it is a live performance), however, the Runnicles is full of drama and therefore it's my favourite of the studio offerings. I think the role of Romeo is key and I like a full bodied sound in the part. Larmore takes the gold medal when it comes to having the big, full, heroic sound needed and fulfilling its dramatic requirements.
> 
> N.


I'm not sure I'd agree. I think Baltsa's voice quite big enough (it certainly sounded huge in the theatre) and, though I didn't hear her as Romeo, I did hear her as Carmen, Eboli, Dorabella and Adalgisa, as well as in the Verdi Requiem and the voice was pretty big. I only heard Larmore once, in a concert performances of some rare _bel canto_ opera (I can't remember which now) and I don't remember her voice being quite so penetrative as Baltsa's. Baltsa is dramatically thrilling too.

That said, I also like Baker, who sings with all her customary intelligence and musicality. Baker did not have a particularly large voice, but I never had any problem hearing her. We forget that her concert repertoire was quite large, taking in the Verdi Requiem, Schoeberg's _Gurrelieder_ and choral and orchestral works by Brahms, Wagner, Berlioz, Elgar and Mahler, as well as Handel of course.

You and I have different reactions to Larmore. I find her competent but she rarely gives me the wow factor, nor is it a voice I think I'd recognise easily in a blind test.


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## The Conte

Tsaraslondon said:


> I'm not sure I'd agree. I think Baltsa's voice quite big enough (it certainly sounded huge in the theatre) and, though I didn't hear her as Romeo, I did hear her as Carmen, Eboli, Dorabella and Adalgisa, as well as in the Verdi Requiem and the voice was pretty big. I only heard Larmore once, in a concert performances of some rare _bel canto_ opera (I can't remember which now) and I don't remember her voice being quite so penetrative as Baltsa's. Baltsa is dramatically thrilling too.
> 
> That said, I also like Baker, who sings with all her customary intelligence and musicality. Baker did not have a particularly large voice, but I never had any problem hearing her. We forget that her concert repertoire was quite large, taking in the Verdi Requiem, Schoeberg's _Gurrelieder_ and choral and orchestral works by Brahms, Wagner, Berlioz, Elgar and Mahler, as well as Handel of course.
> 
> You and I have different reactions to Larmore. I find her competent but she rarely gives me the wow factor, nor is it a voice I think I'd recognise easily in a blind test.


I've seen Larmore about three times (once as a very witty Rosina in Barber) and I'm definitely a fan (and it's a voice I recognise after a couple of minutes of listening). I never heard Baltsa live, but you can tell it penetrated in the opera house. It's not so much how the voices carry but the richness of the sound, how full it is. Larmore's darker tone is more sutied to Romeo in my mind and I find her as dramatic as Baltsa in that role. (I like them both and have a lot of their recordings, even where their rep coincided). Larmore recorded more rarities and Baltsa more Verdi, other than that both their Romeo's are essential and I find it hard to pick a winner. I would go with Larmore due to the more 'manly' colour of her voice, but I can see how others would pick Baltsa.

N.


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## Tsaraslondon

*Werther* is one of my favourite operas, which I've loved since I saw a Glyndebourne Touring Production when I was a student back in the earlt 1970s

Choice is difficult though, not because there are few recordings, but because there are so many good ones and my favourite singers for the two leads are on different sets.

Back in 2015 I did a short comparative review of five different recordings, taking into account the two leads, the conductor and the recorded sound. The five were Cohen, Prêtre, Davis, Plasson and Pappano, with Pappano coming out (just) the winner. https://www.talkclassical.com/37486-discussion-thread-accompany-most-28.html#post939701

I see no reason to change my views now, but the present points system allows me to give points to some of the others too. I still think the Pappano is best all round, but I wouldn't want to be without Prêtre (mostly because of De Los Angeles), Davis (mostly for Von Stade) or Cohen (which only loses out because of the ancient sound). Thill may take the honours as Werther, but Alagna isn't far behind and I honestly think this one of his best recordings. My favourite Charlottes are Von Stade and De Los Angeles, whilst the best conducted sets are Cohen, Davis and Pappano.

In this mini survey, Plasson lost out, mainly beause Kraus, wonderfully stylish though he is, is now sounding his age and Troyanos is just too doom laden from the beginning. I didn't bother too much with Barenboim because Obraztsova is an impossible Charlotte. She sounds as if Azucena had strayed into the wrong opera.


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## Tsaraslondon

Seems like this project is running out of steam, which is a shame. I hope we don't stop now though as there are quite a few favourites of mine in the next ten.

I see I'm the only person to vote for Monteverdi's *L'Orfeo*. I once had the Jürgens version on LP, but I must say I much prefer the starrily cast Haïm version I have now. I know some early music specialists don't like it, but I think it really brings the work to life, making it a dramatic representation rather than a museum piece.


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## Granate

If I'm not making comments in operas I like like Ernani or Werther (to certain extent) it's because I'm in no mood for opera listen lately. I'm reluctant to start Bel Canto Opera challenges or the remaining ones from Verismo or late 19th in Italian.

However, since they are so musical and I've already collected very good symphony and divertimenti recordings, I'm thinking of turning to Mozart Opera challenges if the Brahms and Schumann combo turns out too difficult to manage with office work and workout.

Next thread, since there are fewer pages, will comprise positions 81-100, and the final thread should carry the other 50 remaining to be voted. I'm quite satisfied with the turnout of some operas, which are somehow the same that got a high mark in the 2015 poll. Either the present members who voted that time decided to ignore this one or many of the 2020 recording poll didn't vote in the opera poll and viceversa. I'll do my list and create the next thread for tomorrow, though I don't know if we have a bank holiday out of November 1st.


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## The Conte

I'm not an Orfeo type of person and only have a CD of excerpts, so I'm not qualified to vote on this one. I'll be back in with the next few operas.

N.


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## Tsaraslondon

I've always preferred Massenet's take on L'Abbé Prévost's novel to Puccini's, as it seems to me to capture much more the spirit of the novel and, for my money, Monteux's classic recording of *Manon* with De Los Angeles has never been bettered. There is something just so intrinsically right about its atmosphere, which captures a style of authentically French performance now unfortunately lost to us. There have been other excellent recordings since, not least the Rudel with Sills in one of her best roles, the Plasson with Cotrubas and Kraus and the Pappano, with Gheorghiu and Alagna, which is no doubt more polished in many respects, but none of them captures so well the _Frenchness_ (for want of a better word) of the opera. The only non-French element is Manon herself, and De Los Angeles articulates the text with a naturalness and clarity of a native. Furthermore her characterisation is all of a piece and she has naturally what others strive to find, the charm and sweetness that make us forgive her transgressions. She is simply the most adorable Manon on disc, and, just as Callas has done for so many roles, she spoils me for all others. Somehow I always hear her inflections in my mind's ear, whichever recording I am listening to. For that reason, and for Monteux's perfect realisation of the score, and although I enjoy those other versions listed above, all my points go to the Monteux.


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## mparta

There's a very good live on Myto with Jeanette Pilou (very good, not perfect) and Giacomo (Jaime) Aragall, who is breathtaking (when he's not a little flat).
I love Sills Manon, that is the role for which her voice was made.


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## Tsaraslondon

*Anna Bolena* is easy for me. The live 1957 La Scala performance with Callas was the one that put the opera back on the map and is an incredible testament to Callas's greatness. Yes, I know it's heavily cut, but that doesn't bother me too much in Donizetti and most of the music cut was for Percy who, it has to be said, behaves rather like a whining schoolboy throughout. In the words of Richard Fairman, writing in _Opera on Record, Volume 3_, Callas


> alone, of latter-day artists, has the power to grasp the emotional crux of every line and put it across.


 It is a performane of extraordinary concentration and power and everyone who loves _bel canto_ opera should hear it. Vocally, she is in splendid form even at the top of the voice and interpolates a firm, ringing top D at the end of the first act.

If I had to recommend a more complete studio set then I'd probably go for Varviso with Souliotis, but her voice has already deteriorated quite a lot since the fabulous Abigaille she recorded three years earlier. She has something of the grandeur the role requires, but her singing has become gusty, she has no trill and her coloratura is often smudged or imprecise. Sills is too slight of voice and Sutherland caught too late. Callas is in another world altogether and fortunately she has in Simionato a superb Giovanna too.

As a word of warning, please avoid the Warner transfer, which is just a reissue of the awful EMI one. Divina is best, but Myto is also good.


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## The Conte

Anna Bolena is the exact type of situation where having six points comes into its own. There is only one totally complete recording of the opera and when one hears the countless repeats and bars of filler even in recits that slow the work down and rob it of dramatic impetus, it's easy to see why that is. It's probably why the two Decca studio recordings have a small amount of sensible cuts in (and Bonynge and Varviso make slightly different decisions about that). Both those studio recordings are ruled out by Bolenas past their best.

That leaves three live recordings and no single one of them is an outright first choice. Top of the pile, though, is the excellent Scala account with Callas. Alas it's so cut to shreds that they disfigure the work and so I couldn't quite give it all of the six points, despite it being a superb performance from all concerned. Full of drama and verve, it must have been one of those nights in the theatre everyone remembered for years after. Whilst the opera needs cutting in performance (it was Donizetti's first important work, but he hadn't yet learned what works and more importantly what doesn't) there are far too many incisions here. However, this is the best performance of the opera by a mile. The other downside is the less than ideal sound and so I gave it four points.

The other two live performances feature Souliotis (with a very starry ensemble featuring Domingo, Horne and Baker) and Theodossiou in a Bergamo festival performance from 2001 and therefore we have very good sound for a live recording. The Souliotis has dull sound and whilst it opens many of the cuts used in 1957 it isn't anywhere near as complete as her studio recording. She is in significantly better voice caught a couple of years before that recording too. However, whereas she was a superb Abigaille and Lady Macbeth, she didn't have the technique to be a totally convincing Bolena or Norma. Theodossiou isn't always easy on the ear, but she is fully committed to expressing the drama in the situations this Tudor queen finds herself in. The two other things that make this a second choice and the winner of two points from me is the completeness of the text and the wonderfully musical, taut and meaningful conducting from Severini.

N.


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## Tsaraslondon

Oh how it pains me to see Verdi's late, great masterpiece coming so low in the TC rankings. Musically *Falstaff* is just about as perfect as any opera can be, brimful with so many delectable tunes that they've gone almost before you grasp them. This might be the reason for its lack of popularity. You need to listen to it several times before it reveals its magic. The intricate ensembles are amazing, showing Verdi in complete control of his resources.

No other recording has ever quite supplanted the 1956 Karajan recording, with the Philharmonia Orchestra in top form, for me anyway. It has occasionally been criticised for a lack of spontaneity, but I'm afraid I just don't hear it. For me it bubbles with high spirits and bonhomie and the whole cast cannot be faulted. I've read criticisms that Gobbi voice doesn't sound "fat" enough and that Schwarzkopf is more Frau Flut than Alice, but I don't hear that either. Gobbi's portrayal is so full of detail and Schwarzkopf so wonderfully full of high spirits that I find them both perfect casting, as are the rest of the cast.

One of the classics of the gramophone.


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## The Conte

Tsaraslondon said:


> Oh how it pains me to see Verdi's late, great masterpiece coming so low in the TC rankings. Musically *Falstaff* is just about as perfect as any opera can be, brimful with so many delectable tunes that they've gone almost before you grasp them. This might be the reason for its lack of popularity. You need to listen to it several times before it reveals its magic. The intricate ensembles are amazing, showing Verdi in complete control of his resources.
> 
> No other recording has ever quite supplanted the 1956 Karajan recording, with the Philharmonia Orchestra in top form, for me anyway. It has occasionally been criticised for a lack of spontaneity, but I'm afraid I just don't hear it. For me it bubbles with high spirits and bonhomie and the whole cast cannot be faulted. I've read criticisms that Gobbi voice doesn't sound "fat" enough and that Schwarzkopf is more Frau Flut than Alice, but I don't hear that either. Gobbi's portrayal is so full of detail and Schwarzkopf so wonderfully full of high spirits that I find them both perfect casting, as are the rest of the cast.
> 
> One of the classics of the gramophone.


I agree 100%. I hadn't heard those criticisms of it before and I'm flabbergasted! A baritone I admire who certainly doesn't sound 'fat' enough is Fischer-Dieskau, however Gobbi has the part down to a T (much as he had Puccini's great comic creation Gianni Schichi). I think Schwarzkopf was inspired casting here and Panerai and Barbiere haven't been beaten in their roles. I also like the Abbado recording with Terfel as a modern alternative, which is beautifully conducted and being in modern stereo has possibly the best sound of any of them. However the Karajan is by far the best of the crop.

N.


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## Revitalized Classics

I enjoy the 1956 Karajan studio set, but I prefer the live recording from the Salzburg Festival performance in '57







It has many of the virtues of the studio set.

If we compare Panerai in the studio and live the next year, the latter is, to me, the more extroverted and inspired performance helped by vivid sound.
Studio, 1956




Live, 1957





Regarding Gobbi sounding 'fat' enough, it is possibly exaggerated because of his proximity to Taddei and Warren.
Live, 1957




Live 1949




Live, 1953


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## mparta

I've mentioned this before, but there's a Scotto Anna Bolena from Dallas (preferred to the same year from Philadelphis) in which she sings the paint off the walls. Now given some sounds she made later in her career, that may raise alarms, but this is magnificent singing with a pretty good tenor (Grilli), a very good bass (Flagello) and good grief, TATIANA TROYANOS. Get this, you will be knocked out. Of course the sound is challenging and I can't vouch for the structure of the opera, but I enjoy it when I listen to it. It took me years to come to this piece and the Callas didn't do it. I am unreasonably put of by the Smeaton from La Scala (really awful) and Simionato doesn't do it for me in that performance either. 
I really have the great moments for Anna firmly entrenched in my ear with Scotto, that's a great compliment.
I have the Theodossiou DVD, watched once, I like her but the others not up to snuff, deserves another try.
Never heard Souliotis, probably YouTube that.
The Scotto live is very inexpensive from house of opera. Dallas, 1975. Get it.


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## mparta

Agree about how good the von Karajan studio is, never heard the live.
This is one of the masterpieces of western civilization. Meaningful, spectacular music, a piece that welds Shakespeare, Boito's adaptation, Verdi's masterpiece (along with Otello) to make for a real monument.
I've heard it 3 times (I think) in performance, it's a hard piece to hurt, just built so perfectly. Muti's performance with the La Scala cast years ago in Bussetto (?), little royal theatre, good, concert performance in Chicago, and yes i've heard it 4 times, a Met performance with Plishka moons ago and a just a few years ago with Ambrogio Maestri, the one with him in the riding outfit. All wonderful.
Funny to note that the normally tyrannical and precise Muti came to grief in the same concerted section in both performances. He seems to not have learned where to hit the beat to keep the singers out of trouble. And looked very perplexed when it happened.
Who could not think this work is a masterpiece?


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## Tsaraslondon

We're on to *Fedora*, which means I'll have to pass. I've seen it once (with Carreras and an aging Freni) and it didn't make much of an impression on me.

I tried the Decca studio recording, but even Olivero isn't able to rescue it. Mind you Del Monaco screaming his head off (_Amor ti vieta_ is really nasty) didn't help. I can't comment on any other recordings because I haven't heard any and, it has to be admitted, I don't really have the inclination to try.


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## mparta

In reply to a previous post on Thais, wow, that's a real hit on Hampson. And I agree completely. Self-regarding singing which term could be used for Fleming also.
Once I heard Robert Massard there was no room for anyone else. Sad that the version with Doria is the (I think original) without some significant music for Athanael.
Milnes sings it well, but the sound is a little brighter and I prefer Massard.


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## Tsaraslondon

mparta said:


> In reply to a previous post on Thais, wow, that's a real hit on Hampson. And I agree completely. Self-regarding singing which term could be used for Fleming also.
> Once I heard Robert Massard there was no room for anyone else. Sad that the version with Doria is the (I think original) without some significant music for Athanael.
> Milnes sings it well, but the sound is a little brighter and I prefer Massard.


Here we disagree. I'm not a big fan of *Thaïs* but I think Fleming is superb in this opera. One of the best things she's ever done on disc, and a marked improvement on Doria, Moffo and Sills.


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## The Conte

*Fedora*

One of the most fascinating aspects of this forum are the various differences in personal taste between members. There seem to be quite a few people who are big fans of Massenet, whereas I only have a passing liking for some of his work and most of his operas sound like general 19th century filler to my ears. I would much rather listen to bel canto and even prefer good Pacini to rare Massenet or Gounod. That's partly because I prefer early 19th century music to later. However, I am also a bigger fan of verismo than most here and Fedora is one of my favourites. It's short length and through composed score with only one 'stand alone' aria make it similar to Janacek (although the style of the music and psychological depth in Janacek are lacking).

I have four recordings (Gheorgiu/Domingo, Olivero/Del Monaco and a further two live performances with Olivero). For those who want beautiful singing the Domingo/Gheorgiu will be in order, whereas I prefer the dramatic intensity of the Olivero studio version. Perhaps the most successful recording is the live Olivero/Di Stefano where she is even more over the top than in the studio and he is more stylish than Del Monaco, however, this is verismo, it's meant to be over the top. I'm quite happy to leave my good taste at the door and be swept away by the cheap emotions of the piece.

There are a few choices on DVD, but Freni and Domingo late in their careers have the stage experience to pull out our emotions and bring the work to life. Gavazzeni (again late in his career, his last recording?) conducts from La Scala, what more could you want?

N.


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## Viardots

mparta said:


> ...a Scotto Anna Bolena from Dallas, 1975.


This Dallas _Anna Bolena _with Scotto has actually been uploaded to YouTube. The links are provided below for others to sample first, rather than jumping straight into ordering custom-made CDR from House of Opera, which could take a while:

Part 1:





Part 2:


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## Tsaraslondon

There appear to be more recordings of *Attila* than I thought but I only know the Gardelli and Muti recordings. In any case it's not an opera I like enough to want multiple versions of. I have the Gardelli, but there really isn't much to chose between it and the Muti. Deutekom is the weak link on the Gardelli, the voice really too pallid for this role. However I prefer the male singers on the Gardelli to their counterparts on the Muti, so will stick with this one.


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## mparta

On the Dallas/Scotto Anna Bolena from YouTube:
Just listened to the the last aria, Coppia Iniqua.
Wow, spectacular characterful singing. I listened to the very pale Damrau as Elvira/Puritani last night, not a patch on this for passion. Scotto spits out the words and makes them burn!!
Thanks, whoever recommended this!!
Oh, yea, I did. Well you all owe me.:tiphat:


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## The Conte

Tsaraslondon said:


> There appear to be more recordings of *Attila* than I thought but I only know the Gardelli and Muti recordings. In any case it's not an opera I like enough to would want multiple versions of. I have the Gardelli, but there really isn't much to chose between it and the Muti. Deutekom is the weak link on the Gardelli, the voice really too pallid for this role. However I prefer the male singers on the Gardelli to their counterparts on the Muti, so will stick with this one.


I agree here, however my liking for Studer, a slight preference for Ramey over Raimondi and Muti being totally in his element makes the EMI the winner for me. I really like the opera and have recently purchased a cheap copy of the Gardelli (so as to have the libretto as the Muti is included without one in a box set of Verdi operas I bought last year) and I also have the Furlanetto recording which is a disappointment. I also have the Muti on DVD with a slightly different cast.

N.


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## The Conte

As I have said in my Dido reviews, I'm not that keen on 17th century opera. I've never heard a single note of Ulisse, so it's a pass from me.

N.


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## Tsaraslondon

I like Monteverdi, but I'm very suprised to find *Ulisse* polling so much higher than what must surely be Monteverdi's most performed opera, *L'Incoronazione di Poppea*, which trails behind at number 125.

For both operas I choose La Venexiana under Claudio Cavina, whose performances are wonderfully alive and dramatic.

Despite Leppard's anachronistic orchestrations, I also have a great affection for the 1973 Glyndebourne version, in which Janet Baker is a superb Penelope, so make that my DVD choice.


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## The Conte

Tsaraslondon said:


> I like Monteverdi, but I'm very suprised to find *Ulisse* polling so much higher than what must surely be Monteverdi's most performed opera, *L'Incoronazione di Poppea*, which trails behind at number 125.


I can only agree, Poppea is my favourite Monteverdi and it's an opera I very much enjoy in performance, but just don't ever wish to listen to.

N.


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## Tsaraslondon

I have the Järvi recording of *Mazeppa*, but it's the only one I've ever heard, so don't feel I can contribute. I haven't heard it in quite a while. I should probably get it down off the shelves again.


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## The Conte

I really like Vespri Siciliani. I know it is uneven and Verdi was still finding his feet in the five act French format. (To be fair he still needed a bit of time to get Don Carlos right.) However, the result is a lengthy, padded out Verdi drama fest and the good parts of the score are very good indeed. Let's face it, the libretto is what really lets it down. There's practically no plot, just the mapping out of a revenge and the ending feels bodged and too sudden.

There's only one obvious studio choice (the Levine), but there is a less starry alternative for those wanting the French version (which despite being the original sounds like a translation in places). The one drawback with the RCA/Levine is that I would have preferred Caballe rather than Arroyo and she was singing it around that time.

There are also a number of live recordings, but the only one I have is the Callas. She is superb and Christoff gives us a fine Procida. However, the rest of the cast is a let down (especially the tenor Kokolis Bardi) and so I don't feel I can give this set any points.

I also like the Muti recording, but that too has some weaker cast members and so it only makes it in the DVD category.

N.


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## The Conte

Here's an interesting 'what if?' What if the Pappano Trovatore sessions had been used to record a french language Vepres? That would have been right up Alagna's street. Gheorgiu was always very good in the studio and Hampson would have been a fine Monforte. D'Arcangelo might have been a good surprise Procida (or Furlanetto). What do you think?

N.


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## Tsaraslondon

The Conte said:


> I really like Vespri Siciliani. I know it is uneven and Verdi was still finding his feet in the five act French format. (To be fair he still needed a bit of time to get Don Carlos right.) However, the result is a lengthy, padded out Verdi drama fest and the good parts of the score are very good indeed. Let's face it, the libretto is what really lets it down. There's practically no plot, just the mapping out of a revenge and the ending feels bodged and too sudden.
> 
> There's only one obvious studio choice (the Levine), but there is a less starry alternative for those wanting the French version (which despite being the original sounds like a translation in places). The one drawback with the RCA/Levine is that I would have preferred Caballe rather than Arroyo and she was singing it around that time.
> 
> There are also a number of live recordings, but the only one I have is the Callas. She is superb and Christoff gives us a fine Procida. However, the rest of the cast is a let down (especially the tenor Kokolis Bardi) and so I don't feel I can give this set any points.
> 
> I also like the Muti recording, but that too has some weaker cast members and so it only makes it in the DVD category.
> 
> N.


I am pretty sure that Caballé was the original choice but bowed out because of illness and Arroyo was a last minute replacement. Arroyo has a fine instrument, though her coloratura is a bit sketchy, but she lacks personality and individuality. Still, we would be very happy to hear such a Verdi soprano today.

For all its problems, I've stll granted the Kleiber three stars as Callas is in fabulous form and it's good to hear what a real _soprano dramatico d'agilita_ does with the role.


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## Tsaraslondon

The Conte said:


> Here's an interesting 'what if?' What if the Pappano Trovatore sessions had been used to record a french language Vepres? That would have been right up Alagna's street. Gheorgiu was always very good in the studio and Hampson would have been a fine Monforte. D'Arcangelo might have been a good surprise Procida (or Furlanetto). What do you think?
> 
> N.


I've often thought exactly that myself. It's one of the big holes in the Verdi catalogue and the old BBC recording, which I think was eventually issued by Opera Rara, doesn't really plug the gap.


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## The Conte

Tsaraslondon said:


> I've often thought exactly that myself. It's one of the big holes in the Verdi catalogue and the old BBC recording, which I think was eventually issued by Opera Rara, doesn't really plug the gap.


I much prefer the Italian version, but in some places the French is better. My theory is that Verdi was getting to grips with setting French to music and was still creating melodic shapes that were more italianate then french in style. This doesn't seem to have been as much a problem for Donizetti and Rossini, but then their style of opera wasn't as mature as Verdi's, it was almost just a case of writing a tune that fitted and could be hummed!

The reason I mention that Trovatore is because we didn't really need another recording of it and whilst the cast is very good, it doesn't quite come together as a coherent, dramatic whole and they have all been surpassed by various singers of the fifties/sixties. However, it was the perfect opportunity to fill in a gap in the catalogue. That said, a label will always go for a known title rather than a rarer work and I guess Alagna and Pappano wanted to get Trovatore down.

N.


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## Tsaraslondon

For *Lucrezia Borgia* I've gone for Caballé's sensational debut in New York, which takes fire in a way that the studio one doesn't. Admittedly Berbié's Orsini is not in the Verrett class, but the men (Vanzo and Paskalis) are at least as good as their studio counterparts and Caballé outdoes herself. Indeed, along with the Orange *Norma*, I'd say this was one of her best recordings. I don't know what's wrong with the studio version, but it's just a bit flat and, well, studio bound.

The transfer I have of the Carnegie Hall performance is on Standing Room Only and includes excerpts from a performance of *Roberto Devereux* also from Carnegie Hall, but later that year.


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## The Conte

Tsaraslondon said:


> For *Lucrezia Borgia* I've gone for Caballé's sensational debut in New York, which takes fire in a way that the studio one doesn't. Admittedly Berbié's Orsini is not in the Verrett class, but the men (Vanzo and Paskalis) are at least as good as their studio counterparts and Caballé outdoes herself. Indeed, along with the Orange *Norma*, I'd say this was one of her best recordings. I don't know what's wrong with the studio version, but it's just a bit flat and, well, studio bound.
> 
> The transfer I have of the Carnegie Hall performance is on Standing Room Only and includes excerpts from a performance of *Roberto Devereux* also from Carnegie Hall, but later that year.


I've only heard excerpts from that recording. I shall investigate further...

I've always liked the studio recording, but also have Sutherland's for the alternative versions of some of the music. Perhaps I will vote for the Caballe on CD and Sutherland on DVD (It's late Sutherland and Krauss, but it's still Sutherland and Krauss).

N.


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## The Conte

Prince Igor is easy as far as I'm concerned. It's the Gergiev (which restores a large part of the opera and it finally makes sense) both on CD and DVD. I guess the competition would be either the Bolshoi version on Melodiya or the Christoff on EMI, but neither matches the Gergiev.

N.


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## Tsaraslondon

Can't contribute this time as, somewhat unbelievably, I've never seen or heard *Prince Igor* all the way through. I only know the ubiquitous Polovtsian Dances and Vladimir's Cavatina, as sung by Bjoerling.

The Gergiev is on Spotify, so will try and listen over the next few days.


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## Granate

I heard Prince Igor, the Gergiev performance, in two sits. I listened to the Semkov recording and thought the work wasn't worth any second more.


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## Woodduck

Tsaraslondon said:


> Can't contribute this time as, somewhat unbelievably, I've never seen or heard *Prince Igor* all the way through.


Hahaha. Neither have I. I got part way through the Met's broadcast of a while back, but I had no libretto and the music didn't hold me. The opera was never completed, was it? Maybe there's just no such thing as "all the way through."

The overture and Polovtsian dances are beautiful, anyway.


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## Tsaraslondon

I prefer *Stiffelio* to *Aroldo*, but Verdi wrote some great new music for *Aroldo*, not least Mina's _Salvami to gran Dio_ in Act I and her cabaletta in Act II, which replaces the rather conventional one in *Stiffelio*, so I would ideally want both, but I think *Stiffelio* is the more dramatically cohesive piece and te final scene in the church is one of my favourite moments in the score. Carreras, having already recorded the opera for Gardelli, had a huge success in the role at Covent Garden and it is good that his portrayal has been captured both on disc and on video. Sass is an occasionally squally but dramatically exciting Lina on the recording and Malfitano very effective in the excellent Covent Garde stage production.

Here's Callas singing _Salvami to gran Dio_. It's 1964, so the voice is under pressure, but her command of Verdian style is undiminished.






For *Aroldo * I opt for the Queler with Cecchele and Caballé, though it seems to be quite hard to get hold of now.


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## The Conte

Tsaraslondon said:


> I prefer *Stiffelio* to *Aroldo*, but Verdi wrote some great new music for *Aroldo*, not least Mina's _Salvami to gran Dio_ in Act I and her cabaletta in Act II, which replaces the rather conventional one in *Stiffelio*, so I would ideally want both, but I think *Stiffelio* is the more dramatically cohesive piece and te final scene in the church is one of my favourite moments in the score. Carreras, having already recorded the opera for Gardelli, had a huge success in the role at Covent Garden and it is good that his portrayal has been captured both on disc and on video. Sass is an occasionally squally but dramatically exciting Lina on the recording and Malfitano very effective in the excellent Covent Garde stage production.
> 
> Here's Callas singing _Salvami to gran Dio_. It's 1964, so the voice is under pressure, but her command of Verdian style is undiminished.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> For *Aroldo * I opt for the Queler with Cecchele and Caballé, though it seems to be quite hard to get hold of now.


I agree!

(Glad I waited before voting as now I can just copy and paste!)

N.


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## Tsaraslondon

For me *La Gioconda* is Callas, but I find it impossible to choose between the 1952 and 1959 recordings, so give them three points each. Callas didn't sing the role of Gioconda that often but it plays an important part in her career. It was the role of her Italian debut in Verona and was the first time she worked with Serafin, who became her mentor afterwards. She also met Meneghini whilst rehearsing for the Verona performances. After those performances in Verona she revisited the opera in 1952, singing it again in Verona, at La Scala and for the Cetra recording, then never again until the 1959 recording, for which she is in surprisingly god voice, the top of the voice in much better control than it was for the *Manon Lescaut* of 1957. Indeed she manages the pitfalls of _Enzo adorato, ah come t'amo_, with its _piano_ top B better here than she did in 1952, though she cannot float the note as do Caballé and Milanov. There is an irresistible almost animalistic power to her singing in 1952, but the 1959 is perhaps more smoothly sung and more subtly inflected. I love them both.

As to the rest. Swings and roundabouts. The stereo sound of the La Scala set is much better than the mono Cetra; Ferraro (1959) is a good deal better in Ponchielli than he was in Bellini (the Carnegie Hall concert performance of *Il Pirata*) and also a lot better than the whiney Poggi (1952), though one wishes Corelli had been engaged. Barbieri (1952) ia a more positive presence than Cossotto (1959). Not a great deal to choose between Silveri and Cappuccilli, Neri and Vinco. Votto is excellent in both and these two recordings represent some of his finest work on disc.

Some of the other recordings are better cast all round, but, for me anyway, Callas put such a stamp on the title role that I find it hard to listen to any other without hearing her unique accents in my mind's ear.

Interestingly, when Tebaldi was preparing to record the role, the record producer (Culshaw?) suggested she listen to Milanov's recording. When he went to visit her, he found her listening to the Callas. "But why didn't you tell me Maria's was best?" she asked him. I think it still is.


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## Andante Cantabile

Here's what *John Steane* wrote about Callas' rendition of "Suicidio" in the 1952 Cetra/Turin and the 1959 EMI/Milan recordings in a survey of various recordings of the aria (No. 15 in the 'Aria' series) in *OPERA NOW, May/June 2005*:



> 'Ultima voce del mio destin': she is the only one who catches, as though it were personal, the fatalism and mystery. And she does it in the earlier recording, the 1952 Cetra set, not in the 1959 EMI. The later one is 'corrected': for instance, she no longer hammers home every syllable for the rising 'dentro l'avel' with quite that expenditure of the iron chest-voice. But it's the earlier recording that she most lives the aria from moment to moment."


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## The Conte

Gioconda is a difficult one for me. One (at least) of the two Callas versions is essential, but then there are some superb other versions as well. For complete in modern sound there's the Caballe/Pavarotti/Baltsa/Milnes/Ghiaurov (what a cast!) and then I am incredibly fond of the one with Cerquetti/Simionato/Del Monaco/Bastianini/Siepi and that's before we get to the live ones with Corelli...

N.


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## Tsaraslondon

Augastine said:


> Here's what *John Steane* wrote about Callas' rendition of "Suicidio" in the 1952 Cetra/Turin and the 1959 EMI/Milan recordings in a survey of various recordings of the aria (No. 15 in the 'Aria' series) in *OPERA NOW, May/June 2005*:


In _The Grand Tradition_, Steane compares performances of the aria by Bonisegna, Destinn, Austral, Ponselle, Milanov, Cerquetti and Callas, declaring that Callas and Ponselle "stand head and shoulders above the others".



> Only two emerge as fully satisfying, however, and one has again to acknowledge how rare great operatic singing is...There are some faults in the Ponselle, it is true. The tempo is rather fast, 'domando al ciel di dormir questa' is not sung as a single phrase, and she does not observe the portamenti marked in the last bars. Callas has none of these deficiencies, and hers I take to be the other great performance among these records, for in spite of the unsteadiness (it is realtively slight), the singing is extremely beautiful, and the interpretation creative, intense and memorable.


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## Andante Cantabile

Tsaraslondon said:


> In _The Grand Tradition_, Steane compares performances of the aria by Bonisegna, Destinn, Austral, Ponselle, Milanov, Cerquetti and Callas, declaring that Callas and Ponselle "stand head and shoulders above the others".


Steane made similar comment about Callas and Ponselle in his OPERA NOW article. I must say my perspective on the comparison between Callas' two versions of 'Suicidio' is somewhat different from Steane's. Each has its own strengths. In the 1952 one, she is clearly intent on milking all dramatic juice out of every moment in the aria and the approach is certainly full of impact. By 1959, she had clearly re-thought seriously about her approach: rather than highlighting the particular impact of each and every moment in the aria, she integrates them into a coherent whole and furthermore she integrates the aria with the dramatic structure and ebb and flow of the rest of Act 4 better than she did in 1952.


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## Tsaraslondon

Incidentally, we sill soon have reached the 100th opera in the 2020 list. Do we carry on or not? There are quite a few operas going forward which I either don't know or which have only one recording. On the other hand, there are also some more popular operas with quite a few recordings to their credit (*I Puritani*, *Luisa Miller*, *Medea*, *Semiramide*, *L'Italiana in Algeri*, *La Clemenza di Tito*, *Il Turco in Italia*, *L'Incoronazine di Poppea *, *Don Pasquale*, *La Damnation de Faust* to name just a few). Quite how Rutland Boughton's *The Immortal Hour* ended up rating higher than *Don Pasquale* and *La Rondine* (both operas that are still performed quite regularly) is beyond me. Strauss's *Capriccio*, which is hardly a rarity, didn't even make the top 200.


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## The Conte

Tsaraslondon said:


> Strauss's *Capriccio*, which is hardly a rarity, didn't even make the top 200.


That doesn't surprise me in the least, which turns people off more though, the words or the music? :devil:

N.


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## Granate

Tsaraslondon said:


> Incidentally, we sill soon have reached the 100th opera in the 2020 list. Do we carry on or not?


I think that only Conte and I had talked about it. We were going to carry on until 150. I was proposing that this time it was a week-long vote for operas in positions 101-150.


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## The Conte

Granate said:


> I think that only Conte and I had talked about it. We were going to carry on until 150. I was proposing that this time it was a week-long vote for operas in positions 101-150.


A week may be too long, however I think we should continue voting, there are several options for Puritani (and the others Greg has mentioned).

N.


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## MarioDelMonacoViva

The Conte said:


> Gioconda is a difficult one for me. One (at least) of the two Callas versions is essential, but then there are some superb other versions as well. For complete in modern sound there's the Caballe/Pavarotti/Baltsa/Milnes/Ghiaurov (what a cast!) and then I am incredibly fond of the one with Cerquetti/Simionato/Del Monaco/Bastianini/Siepi and that's before we get to the live ones with Corelli...
> 
> N.


For me I prefer the earlier version, not just because Callas is in better voice and I like prefer her earlier assumption of the role, but because I simply cannot stand Cossotto's Laura and find Barbieri's thrilling. Neri's Alvise is also worth having.

I too adore the Gavazzeni recording. It's probably the most well-rounded recording, with great singing in all 6 major roles. Whilst I think there is a great deal going for the Caballe recording, I do not think it was a role that really suited her, and Pavarotti's voice is too small for Enzo. Ghiaurov is probably my favourite of the cast - I think he might be my favourite Alvise.

The Tebaldi recording, conducted by Gardelli and with Bergonzi, Horne, Merrill and Ghiuselev is, for the most part, good, but Tebaldi's voice is not what it was in the 50s, and I don't think she's nearly as involved enough to compensate. Bergonzi phrases beautifully, though I think Enzo is simply too heavy for him. Horne is completely miscast (the role should have really been given to Dominguez who sings La Cieca), but Ghiuselev and especially Merrill are magnificent.


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## MarioDelMonacoViva

The Conte said:


> A week may be too long, however I think we should continue voting, there are several options for Puritani (and the others Greg has mentioned).
> 
> N.


There's only one option for Puritani - Callas


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## MarioDelMonacoViva

Tsaraslondon said:


> Incidentally, we sill soon have reached the 100th opera in the 2020 list. Do we carry on or not? There are quite a few operas going forward which I either don't know or which have only one recording. On the other hand, there are also some more popular operas with quite a few recordings to their credit (*I Puritani*, *Luisa Miller*, *Medea*, *Semiramide*, *L'Italiana in Algeri*, *La Clemenza di Tito*, *Il Turco in Italia*, *L'Incoronazine di Poppea *, *Don Pasquale*, *La Damnation de Faust* to name just a few). Quite how Rutland Boughton's *The Immortal Hour* ended up rating higher than *Don Pasquale* and *La Rondine* (both operas that are still performed quite regularly) is beyond me. Strauss's *Capriccio*, which is hardly a rarity, didn't even make the top 200.


A number of those seem pretty clear cut to me, especially L'Incoronazione di Poppea and Don Pasquale.


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## Tsaraslondon

We've come to Délibes's *Lakmé*, once quite popular but rarely staged today. I'm guessing quite a few will have come to the opera via Bonyge's recording with Sutherland, as indeed did I. However there is very little authentically French about it, aside from Vanzo's elegant Gérald. What language Sutherland is singing in is anyone's guess. I doubt she even knew herself.

The Lombard is in a different world altogether and Lakmé might just be Mady Mesplé's best recorded role. Her bright, light, very French soprano, with its fast flicker vibrato is perfect for the role, her diction just about perfect and her intonation and coloratura crystal clear. She also makes a great deal more of the character than Sutherand. Charles Burles is at least the equal of Vanzo and Soyer is a superb Nilakantha.

I also enjoy the more recent Plasson recording, though Kunde cedes points to both Burles and Vanzo, who both sing with more elegance. Kunde can sound effortful and his legato is less than ideal. Van Dam is possibly a little past his best, but is an authoratative Nilakantha. On the other hand Dessay is close to her best as Lakmé, making the famous Bell Song into a true narrative rather than just a vehicle for vocal display. The voice is very lovely, but just lacks that last ounce of individuality we get from Mesplé. Both Plasson and Lombard conduct tauter performances than Bonynge.

The Bell Song was once something of a Callas showpiece and, as it was her birthday yesterday, let us listen now to her singing it (in Italian) in concert in 1952.


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## The Conte

MarioDelMonacoViva said:


> There's only one option for Puritani - Callas


I agree with your sentiment, however there are a number of other recordings in existence. The downside is that the Callas is horrendously cut (far worse than most of her other recordings) and therefore I will probably also award points to the Sutherland. Some may prefer the early Sutherland (and that's without considering the Caballe or the live recordings).

Some of the operas we've considered only have one studio recording and so there hasn't been much choice to vote from in the first place there.

N.


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## The Conte

MarioDelMonacoViva said:


> A number of those seem pretty clear cut to me, especially L'Incoronazione di Poppea and Don Pasquale.


I expect to see quite a few different Don Pasquales voted for, perhaps I am wrong.

N.


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## Tsaraslondon

The Conte said:


> I expect to see quite a few different Don Pasquales voted for, perhaps I am wrong.
> 
> N.


Agreed. I'm not sure if there is an outright winner for *Don Pasquale*. I continue to prefer the old Sabajno recording, with Schipa as Ernesto, but it's far from perfect.


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## Handelian

Tsaraslondon said:


> Agreed. I'm not sure if there is an outright winner for *Don Pasquale*. I continue to prefer the old Sabajno recording, with Schipa as Ernesto, but it's far from perfect.


On DVD this one is brilliant


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## Tsaraslondon

Not a massive fan of *Die Entführung aus dem Serail*. The Osmin/Blondchen/Pedrillo antics get on my nerves a bit, but I do listen to the Jochum recording occasionally, if only to hear Wunderlich's peerless Belmonte. Köth sounds more like a Blonde than a Costanze to me, and I do prefer a larger voice for this role, but she's better than I remembered and I'd put up with a lot worse for Wunderlich. Interesting to note that the opera didn't have its La Scala premiere until 1952, when Costanze was sung by no other than Maria Callas, who brilliantly demonstrated her Mozartian credentials in a concert performance (in Italian) in 1954.


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## Tsaraslondon

Britten's *Death in Venice* was the last opera he ever wrote, his last love song to his life partner Peter Pears. Unfortunately he was too ill to conduct either the premiere or the recording, though he oversaw Steuart Bedford who conducted both. The opera is quite ascetic and I find it a rather hard nut to crack, though Britten achieves some gorgeous effects with the gamelan percussion section.

Pears's assumption is I think essential but the Hickox is one of his most successful Britten recordings so I'd always like that one too.

On DVD Deborah Warner's superb ENO production looks splendid even on the small screen and is well worth investigating.


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## Tsaraslondon

For *Poliuto* Corelli is required listening, so the live 1960 La Scala performance gets my vote. Callas is in somewhat tentative voice, but still has that indefinable way of filling Paolina's music with significance. Batianini and Zaccaria fill out a stellar cast and Votto conducts and urgently dramatic performance, wich I find more thrilling than the Caetani. This too is live (from a concert performance) but enjoys much better sound, hence my reasons for including it as a recommendation. Carreras is no Corelli, but sings with his usual involvement and sensitivity, and Ricciarelli makes a lovely, feminine Paolina, if without Callas's peculiar way of illuminating the score. Nobody sings those descending scale passages in _Ah, fuggi da morte_ quite like her.


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## Granate

Granate said:


> I think that only Conte and I had talked about it. We were going to carry on until 150. I was proposing that this time it was a week-long vote for operas in positions 101-150.


So, from tomorrow it will be time to wrap it up. Do we keep this plan? I don't honestly want to keep trying to post every two mornings a new layout with a single opera. It's the same system, but just up to 50 operas in a single post over a week, same voting rules.


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## Tsaraslondon

Granate said:


> So, from tomorrow it will be time to wrap it up. Do we keep this plan? I don't honestly want to keep trying to post every two mornings a new layout with a single opera. It's the same system, but just up to 50 operas in a single post over a week, same voting rules.


I don't think a week will provide any more votes, but I'd like to continue, if only because there are quite a few operas coming up that have multiple recordings (as well as some that have only one or none!). Can any one tell me how *Die Fledermaus* ended up down in position 168, below such works as Cavalli's *Eldogabalo*, Menotti's *Help! Help! the Globolinks!* and Telemann's *Germanicus*? Are any of the people who voted for these obscure pieces actually voting in the recording poll? Somehow I think not.


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## The Conte

I agree that we should continue voting and perhaps we could have something like up to 50 operas per week.

N.


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## Granate

I don't think the new round will provide more votes either. But I just want to end this. It's been a pain to do it for so long.



Tsaraslondon said:


> Are any of the people who voted for these obscure pieces actually voting in the recording poll? Somehow I think not.


I don't think they have either. Many I remember voting then didn't show up here.


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## Tsaraslondon

It's such a shame when there are operas in the second hundred that are performed quite frequently and also have quite a few recordings to their credit, such as *Luisa Miller* (111), *La Damnation de Faust* (147), *Don Pasquale* (146) and *Die Fledermaus* (168).

And just look at positions 191 -200

191 - Halévy - La juive
192 - Dvorak - Dimitrij
193 - Rachmaninoff - Aleko
194 - R. Strauss - Arabella
195 - Britten - Albert Herring
196 - Stravinsky - The Rake's progress
197 - Weinberg - The Passenger
198 - Prokofiev - Betrothal in a Monastery
199 - Britten - The Turn of the Screw
200 - Purcell - The fairy-queen (16p)

At least three of these operas (*Arabella*, *The Rake's Progress* and *The Turn of the Screw*) play to packed houses in opera houses all over the world, and have had quite a few recordings. Their position in the poll is in no way a reflection of their popularity.


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## Granate

Hello. Thank you for taking part of this long journey through the Opera repertoire on 2020. The polls are now closed and I'll start counting the points from today. After that, there's a long way of coding the layout of the posts to send them to the admin as the final guide of this year.


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## Tsaraslondon

Thank you, Granate, for going to all this trouble. Given the response, you might think that it wasn't really worth the effort, but for the few of us who did join it, it has been an enjoyable journey and I look forward to seeing the results. 

One thing it has done is made me re-listen to recordings I hadn't heard in a while, listen to ones I've never heard and even try some operas I hadn'r heard before. Thank you.


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## The Conte

I can only second the comment above, it's been wonderful participating fully in this exercise. It's always a joy to give recordings that I'm not as familiar with a new listen and to find new favourites.

Thanks,

N.


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## Tsaraslondon

A word about *Luisa Miller*, which, in my view, came much lower in the poll than it warrants. I'm obviously not alone either as it has had quite a few recordings, dating back to the first on Cetra in 1951. However three of its comercial recordings stand out and I never can decide which of the three is best which is ahy I gave them all two points each.
Maag is by far the most interesing conductor, Cleva just routine and Maazel tends to draw attention to himself in the wrong way, so Maag wins here, but after that it becomes harder to separate them. All thre tenors give splendid performances and I find it really hard to state a preference for any of them. Domingo is possibly just a mite more involved, possibly because the recording was based on very successful performances at Covent Garden given around the same time, but its very close. Same with the baritones. Milnes is probably my favourite but MacNeil gives one of his best performances for the gramophone and Bruson is also very fine. The basses in all three sets are fine. The Federicas? Well here Cleva scores with Verrett. Obraztsova (Maazel) oversings where Reynolds (Maag) makes hardly any impression at all.

Which leaves us with the three sopranos and I find it impossible to choose a favourite. They all have different strengths and weaknesses, but they are all excellent. Caballé is probably the most vocally entitled, but can sometimes sound too much the _grande dame_ for this essentially simple character. Moffo also gives us one of her best recorded performances, more inside the role than she often was, and technically more accomplished than Ricciarelli, who, however, gives us the most affecting Luisa of the three.

As I said, I find it impossible to separate them, and declare it a draw.


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## The Conte

Tsaraslondon said:


> A word about *Luisa Miller*, which, in my view, came much lower in the poll than it warrants. I'm obviously not alone either as it has had quite a few recordings, dating back to the first on Cetra in 1951. However three of its comercial recordings stand out and I never can decide which of the three is best which is ahy I gave them all two points each.
> Maag is by far the most interesing conductor, Cleva just routine and Maazel tends to draw attention to himself in the wrong way, so Maag wins here, but after that it becomes harder to separate them. All thre tenors give splendid performances and I find it really hard to state a preference for any of them. Domingo is possibly just a mite more involved, possibly because the recording was based on very successful performances at Covent Garden given around the same time, but its very close. Same with the baritones. Milnes is probably my favourite but MacNeil gives one of his best performances for the gramophone and Bruson is also very fine. The basses in all three sets are fine. The Federicas? Well here Cleva scores with Verrett. Obraztsova (Maazel) oversings where Reynolds (Maag) makes hardly any impression at all.
> 
> Which leaves us with the three sopranos and I find it impossible to choose a favourite. They all have different strengths and weaknesses, but they are all excellent. Caballé is probably the most vocally entitled, but can sometimes sound too much the _grande dame_ for this essentially simple character. Moffo also gives us one of her best recorded performances, more inside the role than she often was, and technically more accomplished than Ricciarelli, who, however, gives us the most affecting Luisa of the three.
> 
> As I said, I find it impossible to separate them, and declare it a draw.


I agree with your comments. The reason why the Pavarotti/Caballe/Milnes set wins for me is because those I prefer those singers far more than their counterparts on the other recordings. It's very much a 'favourite' recording rather than the 'greatest' recording of the work.

N.


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## Granate

Counting the votes. 

First 16 operas in.


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