# Favorite Villain



## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

Gosh, there are so many to choose from, aren't there? And each has his own particular, well, not quirk, but ... is it just me or do the villains seem so much better fleshed out than the heroes? - that makes him specially attractive. I almost feel like maybe I subconsciously collect operas for the villains ... 

... funny that some operas seem to have no villains at all (La Boheme, Amico Fritz, Traviata, Sonnambula) and some seem to have two or more (Don Carlo, Tales of Hoffmann, Macbeth, Lohengrin). And some have villains I just can't stand, like Madama Butterfly ... so I didn't include him in the list. So there, right?

Scarpia
Paolo
Baron Ochs
Lady Macbeth
Macbeth (an afterthought lol)
Ortrud
Telramund (again an afterthought)
Conte di Luna
Alberich
Pollione
Duke of Mantua
Don Alfonso
Montfort
Don Giovanni
Klingsor
Consilieur Lindorf/Dapertutto/Dr. Miracle
Dr. Bartolo
Don Jose
Comte Ory
Filippo Re
Il Grande Inquisitor
Belcore
Eugene Onegin
Nurse
Enrico

I think my favorites - sorry, can't pick just one - would have to be: Paolo. Ripati Giuro! Awesome scene. Lady Macbeth - is anything more priceless than that video of the grinning Shirley Verrett? And Ortrud - she NEVER gave up. Who lied? lol Wagner was a genius, I admit it.

Well, you know, it is possible that the whole opera of Lohengrin was a plot by God to get Lohengrin laid, right? Once you start asking WHY the lad was kidnapped, it all becomes clear ... :lol: defeated once again by the forces of evil!


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## Zabirilog (Mar 10, 2013)

Where's... Hagen? And Jago? 
But well well... Scarpia is very scary and bad, Klingsor is repulsive and the Grand inquisitor is a murderer. Bad characters, and interesting to sing, and especially act, I think.


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## Ritter (Apr 11, 2013)

I would consider Don Jose as a victim of Carmen rather than a villain.


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## ahammel (Oct 10, 2012)

guythegreg said:


> Well, you know, it is possible that the whole opera of Lohengrin was a plot by God to get Lohengrin laid, right?


I don't imagine that Lohengrin and Elsa had time to consummate their marriage, unless they did it right there in the church.

Ochs is one of the funniest characters I've ever seen in an opera.

The Queen of Night is another perennial favourite.


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## Sonata (Aug 7, 2010)

I haven't listened to a lot of opera yet, and less still with definite "Villians"
Don Giovanni is one of my favorites in terms of music, Scarpia for sheer "bad-guy ness"


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

Don Giovanni


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## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

... and speaking of villains, there was this lovely quote in the New York Times today:

"It was unclear what brought Mr. Ambrose to New York. He has a criminal history in Texas, Colorado and Kansas, the authorities said, but Monday’s arrest appeared to be his first in New York or New Jersey."

It begs for comment but I can't think what.


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## deggial (Jan 20, 2013)

out of that list my favourite is, unsurprisingly, Mr. Ory, although Ochs and Dr. Bartolo give him a good run for his money. But I've a really weak spot for religious quacks who obviously get it on with all the single (or not so single) ladies


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## Dongiovanni (Jul 30, 2012)

Scarpia is bad to the bone. And he has some gorgeous music.

Should count Almaviva be in the list ?


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## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

Zabirilog said:


> Where's... Hagen? And Jago?


Sorry, it wasn't intended to be a complete list ... I just got a little carried away with the range and timbre of the subject matter ...



> But well well... Scarpia is very scary and bad, Klingsor is repulsive and the Grand inquisitor is a murderer. Bad characters, and interesting to sing, and especially act, I think.


When you mentioned the Grand Inquisitor I suddenly remembered Eric Halfvarsson, from the Mattila/Hampson/Alagna DVD - oh my god! what a performance. And you're right, Klingsor is kind of spidery and repulsive.


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## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

Ritter said:


> I would consider Don Jose as a victim of Carmen rather than a villain.


lol well that's a point of view ... she had it coming, eh? that's what she gets for not seeing right to the core of his personality before becoming attracted to him, I guess ...


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## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

ahammel said:


> I don't imagine that Lohengrin and Elsa had time to consummate their marriage, unless they did it right there in the church.


No, that's the point I was making, God's plot to get Lohengrin laid was foiled by the forces of evil, who scotched the marriage at the last minute.



> Ochs is one of the funniest characters I've ever seen in an opera.
> 
> The Queen of Night is another perennial favourite.


See now, to me Ochs is just repulsive, maybe more repulsive than Klingsor because he's just a bit more realistic. I mean, I sure wouldn't castrate myself in the search for the Philosopher's Stone or whatever ... but if there were no consequences to rape, and if I'd been raised a little differently than I was ... I might have wound up there, where Ochs has found himself. Not a pleasant thought.

Thanks for reminding me about the Queen of the Night. Is she really a villain, though? I think the thrust of the opera is that she has her own ideas about how the world ought to go and is wrong of course, being a woman, but nonetheless has a right to her opinions. well, I could be misremembering it ...


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## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

Sonata said:


> I haven't listened to a lot of opera yet, and less still with definite "Villians"
> Don Giovanni is one of my favorites in terms of music, Scarpia for sheer "bad-guy ness"


Yeah, I'm not sure Don G isn't actually a comedy. I don't enjoy it myself, although I know many people do. And I know Scarpia is near the top of most people's lists for sheer badness. He's growing on me. He's pretty far down there.


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## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

deggial said:


> out of that list my favourite is, unsurprisingly, Mr. Ory, although Ochs and Dr. Bartolo give him a good run for his money. But I've a really weak spot for religious quacks who obviously get it on with all the single (or not so single) ladies


Oh I know. He's a bold one, ain't he? :lol:


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## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

Dongiovanni said:


> Scarpia is bad to the bone. And he has some gorgeous music.
> 
> Should count Almaviva be in the list ?


I don't know ... I considered and dismissed Almaviva as too weak for the competition. I mean, next to Lady Macbeth ... she would have had his balls for breakfast. With ketchup.


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## Gizmo (Mar 28, 2013)

My favorite is Scarpia.


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## ahammel (Oct 10, 2012)

guythegreg said:


> No, that's the point I was making, God's plot to get Lohengrin laid was foiled by the forces of evil, who scotched the marriage at the last minute.


Ah, sorry. Misread that.



guythegreg said:


> See now, to me Ochs is just repulsive, maybe more repulsive than Klingsor because he's just a bit more realistic. I mean, I sure wouldn't castrate myself in the search for the Philosopher's Stone or whatever ... but if there were no consequences to rape, and if I'd been raised a little differently than I was ... I might have wound up there, where Ochs has found himself. Not a pleasant thought.


Oh yeah, Ochs is a totally awful person. But the end-of-the-world chord when Octavian gives him a scratch on his arm? A horde of children he's never seen before chasing him around his hotel room singing 'Papa! Papa! Papa!' in tritones? That's comedy gold, right there.



guythegreg said:


> Thanks for reminding me about the Queen of the Night. Is she really a villain, though? I think the thrust of the opera is that she has her own ideas about how the world ought to go and is wrong of course, being a woman, but nonetheless has a right to her opinions. well, I could be misremembering it ...


As I recall it was more like "Boo! Hiss! Bad irrational, emotional woman! By the way, Freemasonry is awesome!"


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## MAuer (Feb 6, 2011)

Pizarro is my choice of a truly villainous villain, especially when he's sung by Fischer-Dieskau or Dietrich Henschel. Hagen is another one without any redeeming qualities.
I like di Luna, but for quite different reasons. First of all, he has that gorgeous aria to sing. Secondly, he's so inept at being a villain; all through the opera, everything he does blows up in his face one way or another.


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## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

MAuer said:


> Pizarro is my choice of a truly villainous villain, especially when he's sung by Fischer-Dieskau or Dietrich Henschel. Hagen is another one without any redeeming qualities.
> I like di Luna, but for quite different reasons. First of all, he has that gorgeous aria to sing. Secondly, he's so inept at being a villain; all through the opera, everything he does blows up in his face one way or another.


I forgot Pizarro but you're right, he's pretty vil. I haven't been able to enjoy the Ring enough yet to really know what Hagen did bad - who knows, maybe i'll see the Seattle Ring one day - or i should say, one week - and get blown away, and finally learn what it's all about!


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## Zabirilog (Mar 10, 2013)

Hagen is a very evil character. Even naughty to his own dad. 
//


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## SiegendesLicht (Mar 4, 2012)

I am not familiar with each one of them, but I like Hagen as a villain, especially that moment when he watches Siegfried and Gunther sail away to get Brünnhilde and sings:

_His own bride
he brings back to the Rhine;
but to me he brings - the Ring!_

in a dark, menacing tone. And then suddenly everything clicks into place and we understand just why Hagen had been so anxious to get Siegfried and Brünnhilde married to Gutrune and Gunter. And we also understand that Siegfried and Brünnhilde are in big trouble.


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## Xaltotun (Sep 3, 2010)

Hagen is cold, relentless... almost selfless in his evil, which is interesting. The character of Hagen is also brilliant in Friz Lang's _Nibelungen_ films. I haven't yet read the original _Nibelungenlied_, to my shame, but I expect Hagen to be one of the more interesting characters there, also.


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## deggial (Jan 20, 2013)

guythegreg said:


> Yeah, I'm not sure Don G isn't actually a comedy.


I always felt it was - a dark comedy. Even the Commendatore scene appears funny to me.

in fact, here's what wiki says:

_Da Ponte's libretto was billed like many of its time as dramma giocoso, a term that denotes a mixing of serious and comic action. Mozart entered the work into his catalogue as an "opera buffa". Although sometimes classified as comic, it blends comedy, melodrama and supernatural elements._


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

The really bad villains:
Iago
Scarpia
Able rich
Hagen
Don Pizarro (Fidelio)

The anti heroes:
Don Giovanni
Carmen


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

Claggart from Billy Budd is pretty horrible.


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## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

mamascarlatti said:


> Claggart from Billy Budd is pretty horrible.


Agreed - and Quint, for that matter. Away from Britten, I'd also add Pinkerton and the Duke of Mantua.


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

elgars ghost said:


> Agreed - and Quint, for that matter. .


And pretty much every relative that Owen Wingrave has, poor guy.



> Away from Britten, I'd also add Pinkerton and the Duke of Mantua


Eewww, they are both repulsive


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Actually, Wagner comes pretty high on any list of villains in opera.


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## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

ahammel said:


> ... the end-of-the-world chord when Octavian gives him a scratch on his arm? A horde of children he's never seen before chasing him around his hotel room singing 'Papa! Papa! Papa!' in tritones? That's comedy gold, right there.


Yes, I think you're right.



> As I recall it was more like "Boo! Hiss! Bad irrational, emotional woman! By the way, Freemasonry is awesome!"


LOL ... perfect. Thanks.


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## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

Zabirilog said:


> Hagen is a very evil character. Even naughty to his own dad.
> //


Wow - I love the guy already!


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## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

SiegendesLicht said:


> I am not familiar with each one of them, but I like Hagen as a villain, especially that moment when he watches Siegfried and Gunther sail away to get Brünnhilde and sings:
> 
> _His own bride
> he brings back to the Rhine;
> ...


Geez - you make a pretty good case, there. I am going to have to learn to love the Ring, ain't I?


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## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

Xaltotun said:


> Hagen is cold, relentless... almost selfless in his evil, which is interesting. The character of Hagen is also brilliant in Friz Lang's _Nibelungen_ films. I haven't yet read the original _Nibelungenlied_, to my shame, but I expect Hagen to be one of the more interesting characters there, also.


So many are picking on Hagen, I've really got to get to meet this guy!


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## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

deggial said:


> I always felt it was - a dark comedy. Even the Commendatore scene appears funny to me.
> 
> in fact, here's what wiki says:
> 
> _Da Ponte's libretto was billed like many of its time as dramma giocoso, a term that denotes a mixing of serious and comic action. Mozart entered the work into his catalogue as an "opera buffa". Although sometimes classified as comic, it blends comedy, melodrama and supernatural elements._


That's interesting - oddly enough, I've been thinking about the term comedy quite a bit lately - it seems to have been used fairly frequently to denote things we don't usually find funny these days, like complete catastrophes for individuals while life proceeds merrily along for all around them. Punch and Judy comedy. The kiddies laugh as Punch lands Judy a good one and she goes flying out the window. (I've never actually seen a P&J show so this is all pretty free fantasy, here.) lol but when Pagliacci says his immortal last words, "La commedia e finita" ... ah, I don't know. Forget I said it. But if some forward-thinking director were to put the show on in that spirit it might be what Mozart was really going for - or has someone already done that?


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## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

DavidA said:


> The really bad villains:
> Iago
> Scarpia
> Able rich
> ...


I think most of us agree with most of those choices. Iago, though ... wasn't his real crime demonstrating that Otello wasn't nearly as attached to Desdemona as he pretended? I'm just thinking of people I know who are in relationships - the relationships that seem the most secure are the ones in which both partners have built walls about the relationship, presumably to prevent exactly the sort of freewheeling "fun" that Iago - and too many people I've known - bring to the relationships of others. Iago I think represents a character we find at large in the world in general, in bits and pieces parceled out among the people we know, of simply truly not caring too much whether the people we meet succeed or fail. Handing out bricks on the sly, just to see if people can handle it.


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## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

DavidA said:


> Actually, Wagner comes pretty high on any list of villains in opera.


Oh well - if we're going to extend the list to real people, we'll have to include yourself and me. I prefer to keep the discussion to theater and its relationship to our lives, however - and Wagner himself doesn't enter in there. If you want to discuss Wagner's so-called evil you have plenty of other threads to choose from - not sure why they're tolerated here, since it's not a psychology or a history forum, but for some reason they are.


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## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

DavidA said:


> The really bad villains:
> Iago
> Scarpia
> Able rich
> ...


P.S. who's able rich?


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## ahammel (Oct 10, 2012)

guythegreg said:


> P.S. who's able rich?


Alberich + an uncultured autocorrect program, I reckon.


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

deggial said:


> out of that list my favourite is, unsurprisingly, Mr. Ory, although Ochs and Dr. Bartolo give him a good run for his money. But I've a really weak spot for religious quacks who obviously get it on with all the single (or not so single) ladies


You must be a republican,the man is Count Ory not Mister. Also he's not much of a baddie and ends up a good loser.


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

Yes,Pinkerton is a nasty piece of work.
Osmin--in charge of the harem--from "Die Entfuhrung" is a bad guy to our heroes but very amusing.
Kaspar--in league with the devil--in "Der Freischuetz" is a villain for sure.


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## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

Sportin' Life from Porgy & Bess is fairly unsavoury as well.


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## Zabirilog (Mar 10, 2013)

Yeah, Osmin is both amusing and bad. But the style how he's "bad", makes him funny


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## Ebab (Mar 9, 2013)

mamascarlatti said:


> Claggart from Billy Budd is pretty horrible.


Oh yes, the _tormented_ guys are the worst.

Judge Turpin in Sondheim's "Sweeney Todd" (not really an opera but close). Often they cut his "Johanna" number (not to be confused with Anthony's "Johanna"); it is _disturbing_.


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## onmeds (Apr 23, 2013)

Opera, as we know, is the gnarly outgrowth of religious thinking.
The mathematics of the music, oddly enough to the novice attendee, is not
hidden away, but on the surface of the 'attractive mechanism' that draws the
aficionado passionately to our discipline. The key word is discipline. We are
naughty. And the opera is a stern 'mummsie'. How very English of me, you
might say. Oh no! Not at all. Instead. . .how very Motown of me.


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## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

Ebab said:


> Oh yes, the _tormented_ guys are the worst.
> 
> Judge Turpin in Sondheim's "Sweeney Todd" (not really an opera but close). Often they cut his "Johanna" number (not to be confused with Anthony's "Johanna"); it is _disturbing_.


lol i thought SWEENEY was the villain, in that one ...


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## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

onmeds said:


> Opera, as we know, is the gnarly outgrowth of religious thinking.
> The mathematics of the music, oddly enough to the novice attendee, is not
> hidden away, but on the surface of the 'attractive mechanism' that draws the
> aficionado passionately to our discipline. The key word is discipline. We are
> ...


I love it ... the opera is a STERN MUMMSIE!! :lol:


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## Ebab (Mar 9, 2013)

guythegreg said:


> lol i thought SWEENEY was the villain, in that one ...


Well, Sweeney gets to be the throat-slicer, which I guess makes him a villain ... but quirky Mrs Lovett ("And I'm tellin' you, them pussycats is quick!") ain't such a saint either ... Mr Pirelli, always up to a lot of mischief ... Beadle Bamford, oh my ; but his boss Turpin seems to take the cake.

They all seem rather deformed, that's why we all seem to love the show!


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## deggial (Jan 20, 2013)

moody said:


> You must be a republican,the man is Count Ory not Mister. Also he's not much of a baddie and ends up a good loser.


heh, funny how political leanings show through.... anyway, he's terrible as far as ladies' virtue is concerned, don't underestimate him


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

I was thinking that we should include Mephistopheles from Boito's "Mefistofele"' He is frightening as he hurls down his challenge to the Heavenly Host but also the fact that he whistles,very loudly,through his teeth makes him fairly unusual.


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

deggial said:


> heh, funny how political leanings show through.... anyway, he's terrible as far as ladies' virtue is concerned, don't underestimate him


Don't forget than in England (and NZ) _republican _means someone who would rather have a republic than a monarchy. Hence refusing to call Comte Ory by his title - all titles would be abolished under a republic.


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## ahammel (Oct 10, 2012)

mamascarlatti said:


> Don't forget than in England (and NZ) _republican _means someone who would rather have a republic than a monarchy. Hence refusing to call Comte Ory by his title - all titles would be abolished under a republic.


Everywhere except the States, in fact (although the term is rare and liable to cause confusion here in Canuckistan).


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## deggial (Jan 20, 2013)

mamascarlatti said:


> Don't forget than in England (and NZ) _republican _means someone who would rather have a *republic than a monarchy*. Hence refusing to call Comte Ory by his title - all titles would be abolished under a republic.


I wouldn't say I _refused_  I was mostly being silly. But *that*'s the only kind of republican I am, that's for sure.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Listening to Hagen's watch from Götterdämmerung yesterday.
Yes, the villainy is quite extreme!


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

mamascarlatti said:


> Don't forget than in England (and NZ) _republican _means someone who would rather have a republic than a monarchy. Hence refusing to call Comte Ory by his title - all titles would be abolished under a republic.


I didn't realise that he might have thought of the Republican party---where is Boisvert anyway??


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## Badinerie (May 3, 2008)

Scarpia. The arch villain. An encyclopedia of evil
Herodias in Salome, what a perv!
Azucena in Trovatore...yep Baby burning is not cool!
Queen of the night. Magic Flute Mozars uberbitch...
Everyone in Electra! Especially Klytaemnestra, Momie dearest?
Bluebeard. Gets away with murder and more.


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## deggial (Jan 20, 2013)

moody said:


> where is Boisvert anyway??


think about it in English.


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## Hesoos (Jun 9, 2012)

My favourite villain is Rigoletto, a villain with heart. My second favourite is the duke of Mantua.


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## Hesoos (Jun 9, 2012)

Scarpia is not one of my favorites characters, but I agree, he is very bad, he tortures people an does very bad things, he is worse than Mefistofele-Mephistopheles (and that means worse than the devil!).


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## Ritter (Apr 11, 2013)

Why is Rigoletto a villain?


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

Ortrud, for sheer audacity of unrelenting evil.

1. Kidnaps and disables Elsa's brother just so she can accuse her of murdering her own brother.
2. Uses her own husband to her advantage so her claim is backed by his honour.
3. Even after Elsa is acquitted and she falls from grace she re-manipulates her husband without a second thought and sets in action "Plan B".
4. Uses her "outcast" status to her advantage to play off Elsa's compassion.
5. Proudly parades herself in her finest at Elsa's wedding to a shocked audience of people who hate her.
6. Demands Elsa worship at her feet at her own wedding.
7. Even after all of this, succeeds in manipulating and planting doubt in Elsa and in destroying Elsa & Lohengrin's marriage just hours after they say "I do".
9. No victory over her, although she does die in a fit of rage (high blood pressure I guess).


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

deggial said:


> think about it in English.


Is that Wood Green in North London,if so what's that got to do with the Republican party ?


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## deggial (Jan 20, 2013)

it is and it's got nothing to do with the neo-cons  crossed wires, perhaps?

on topic: Rigoletto is sort of an enabler, like Leporello.


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## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

moody said:


> I was thinking that we should include Mephistopheles from Boito's "Mefistofele"' He is frightening as he hurls down his challenge to the Heavenly Host but also the fact that he whistles,very loudly,through his teeth makes him fairly unusual.


Good one. Yes, excellent villain. Well, I've only ever seen the Sam Ramey dvd but it was excellent ...


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## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

Hesoos said:


> My favourite villain is Rigoletto, a villain with heart. My second favourite is the duke of Mantua.


I didn't think of that, but you're right ... Rig is definitely a villain! I guess he's too MUCH of a favorite, which is why i didn't think of him...


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## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

Couchie said:


> Ortrud, for sheer audacity of unrelenting evil.
> 
> 1. Kidnaps and disables Elsa's brother just so she can accuse her of murdering her own brother.
> 2. Uses her own husband to her advantage so her claim is backed by his honour.
> ...


In real life you're a district attorney, right? :lol: Yes, Ortrud is one of my favorites. I notice my own definition of favorite villain changes, though, depending on who I'm looking at - sometimes it's the villain I love the best and sometimes it's the villain that seems the most villainous ...


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## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

Ritter said:


> Why is Rigoletto a villain?


Rigoletto is a villain because he took a job insulting people for the Duke, and because he's really good at it. And because he tried to kill the Duke for seducing his daughter - I mean, she was carried off, but I think the general feeling is, when it came to an offer being made, she wasn't forced. Which makes murder a bit much as retaliation. And because his secret reason for wanting the Duke dead is that he's just too darn good with the ladies, which his deformed self can't stand!


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## MAuer (Feb 6, 2011)

moody said:


> Is that Wood Green in North London,if so what's that got to do with the Republican party ?


Maybe it's Greenwood, Indiana, a suburb of Indianapolis. :lol: Place is crawling with Republicans.


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## Zabirilog (Mar 10, 2013)

I don't think Rigoletto is a villain, he's just bored to the duke.  Well, there's no clear good in that story either, if Gilda's not counted.


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## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

Zabirilog said:


> I don't think Rigoletto is a villain, he's just bored to the duke.  Well, there's no clear good in that story either, if Gilda's not counted.


Bored to the duke? sorry, come again?


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## Ritter (Apr 11, 2013)

guythegreg said:


> Rigoletto is a villain because he took a job insulting people for the Duke, and because he's really good at it. And because he tried to kill the Duke for seducing his daughter - I mean, she was carried off, but I think the general feeling is, when it came to an offer being made, she wasn't forced. Which makes murder a bit much as retaliation. And because his secret reason for wanting the Duke dead is that he's just too darn good with the ladies, which his deformed self can't stand!


A person who makes fun of people to entertain the Duke is a buffoon, maybe the only way to earn a living if you are deformed at that age. And, it is a natural feeling to intend to punish a Duke or King if he kidnaps his daughter. The courtiers don't appreciate him either. For me he doesn't seem to be a villain, rather another victim of everyone who mock him.


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## Zabirilog (Mar 10, 2013)

guythegreg said:


> Bored to the duke? sorry, come again?


Well not bored, I just said it like that. :angel: Angry, would maybe be a better word, or?


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

deggial said:


> it is and it's got nothing to do with the neo-cons  crossed wires, perhaps?
> 
> on topic: Rigoletto is sort of an enabler, like Leporello.


I'm from North London as well.


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

Rubinstein's "The Demon" is a pretty bad guy/demon.
Boito also wrote "Neronne" {Nero),I guess we all know about him.
Auber's "Fra Diavolo" is a daring brigand but get his come -uppance at the end.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Ritter said:


> A person who makes fun of people to entertain the Duke is a buffoon, maybe the only way to earn a living if you are deformed at that age. And, it is a natural feeling to intend to punish a Duke or King if he kidnaps his daughter. The courtiers don't appreciate him either. For me he doesn't seem to be a villain, rather another victim of everyone who mock him.


The point of Verdi's opera is that (under the power of his music) we sympathise with rigolletto. Else it doesn't make sense. The Duke is the actual villain. We are left heartbroken that the poor guy has unwittinglt paid to have his beautiful daughter murdered while the heartless womaniser goes Scott free.


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## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

Well - but was it murder or was it suicide? She knew what would happen when she went through that door - not that that changes Rigoletto's villainy or lack thereof, i just thought it's an interesting question.


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

Nobody has mentioned Boris Godunov as yet and he was gruesome.
By the way I don't really see Sgt. Belcore as much of a baddie.


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## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

moody said:


> Nobody has mentioned Boris Godunov as yet and he was gruesome.
> By the way I don't really see Sgt. Belcore as much of a baddie.


Geez, you're right - I've been thinking about Boris fairly frequently lately for some reason too, so there's no excuse. And a child murderer, too. He was so remorseful though - I can't think he quite comes up to the standard of Ortrud, or Hagen, or Scarpia. Plus for some reason we always cut leaders a break, unless they're named Stalin or Mao, right?


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## sospiro (Apr 3, 2010)

moody said:


> I'm from North London as well.


Ah well that explains a lot


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

sospiro said:


> Ah well that explains a lot


Northerners abound on every side but we will fight them off.


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## Hesoos (Jun 9, 2012)

Ritter said:


> Why is Rigoletto a villain?


Rigoletto is a real villain without pity, he makes fun of the people who suffer only for amuse the duke and advises him to do bad things. 
Rigoletto mocks the husbands of the ladies to whom the Duke is paying attention, and advises the Duke to get rid of them by prison or death, because of that the noblemen resolve to take vengeance on Rigoletto. Rigoletto mocks Count Monterone, whose daughter the Duke had seduced and for this the curse begins. All the plot of the opera is about this curse, Rigoletto pays for being villain.

Rigoletto tells us in his recitative "Pari siamo!" ("We are alike!") how alike are the killer Sparafucile who kills men with his sword, and Rigoletto, who uses his tongue to stab his victims. Rigoletto is aware that he is a real villain, he doesn't like to be like that, but in his own words he himself is not to blame, but the Nature and the society.

Rigoletto hates all the people in the world except of his daughter. But I love this character because despite he is terribly ugly and evil, at the same time he has a big heart and he is a lovely father, and for this, he keeps in secret to his daughter his profession and all the bad things in the court of the duke.


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## OperaMaven (May 5, 2014)

Azucena? She's just a dozen bricks short of a load.

If you're paying very, very close attention, the bitter joke at the end of _Il Trovatore_ is on her too - and she knows it.


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## JCarmel (Feb 3, 2013)

Fafner, I think...particularly_ before _a meal.


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## Bellinilover (Jul 24, 2013)

I'm of the opinion that the Duke is the real villian in _Rigoletto_.

Anyway, my favorite villians are Jack Rance (_La fanciulla del West_), Count di Luna, and Eugene Onegin.

Edited to add: Oh, and I like Riccardo in _I Puritani_, too-- if he's even a villian (if he is, he's a pretty sentimental one).


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

Mefistofeles :devil:


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## Jobis (Jun 13, 2013)

I like Nerone from L'incoronazione. Poppea also, they're such an interesting pair of ne'er-do-wells!


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## Reedmeadow (Sep 2, 2014)

The sorceress and the witches from Dido and Aeneas are just sadistic. "Elissa bleeds tonight, and Carthage flames tomorrow!" Followed by evil hysterical laughter by the chorus. It's one of those awkward moments when your torn between joining in with the laughter or feel bad for the depressed and emotionally unstable queen.


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## ribonucleic (Aug 20, 2014)

Hands down, Hunding from _Die Walküre_.

He tells the hero: "I recognize you as an enemy of my family. So I'm going to kill you. But I don't have to do it until tomorrow. Feel free to spend the night in my house. While you're waiting to die, I'm going to retire for the evening and have sex with the woman you love but whom I own."

Now that's _style_.


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## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

ribonucleic said:


> Hands down, Hunding from _Die Walküre_.
> 
> He tells the hero: "I recognize you as an enemy of my family. So I'm going to kill you. But I don't have to do it until tomorrow. Feel free to spend the night in my house. While you're waiting to die, I'm going to retire for the evening and have sex with the woman you love but whom I own."
> 
> Now that's _style_.


At least Hunding's wife wasn't his own twin sister. :lol:


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

For me it's Iago far and away with Claggart bringing up the rear. The Don takes 3rd place.

Two favorite cads are: Pinkerton and Calaf (but they are not evil)

IMO: Eugene Onegin does NOT belong on the list. He was forced into his position and regretted it from the very beginning.


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## deggial (Jan 20, 2013)

Jobis said:


> I like Nerone from L'incoronazione. Poppea also, they're such an interesting pair of ne'er-do-wells!


it's also wicked that they win in the end! my favourite opera ending by far.


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## Couac Addict (Oct 16, 2013)

Maybe not my favourite but I do think that Tosca gets a bit boring after Scarpia dies. Nice one. You murdered the most interesting person in the entire opera...should've saved that for the finale.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

guythegreg said:


> *Scarpia*
> Paolo
> Baron Ochs
> Lady Macbeth
> ...


Of those listed I only know the ones I have indicated above in bold. I don't consider Dr. Bartolo or Belcore so much villians as just very pushy and selfish persons.

Scarpia is a true villian. So is Ortrud, though she seems more a witch than villian if there is a difference.

Telramund is a villian on the order of "Dr. Smith" of the TV series "Lost in Space."

I have not read the rest of the thread, so there may be some mentioned I am unaware of, but I would add these:

Hagen from Gotterdammerung

Don Pizarro from Fidelio.

Samiel and Caspar of Der Freischütz

But my favorite villian is probably Bowman as Tolomeo in Giulio Cesare (and the only instance where I like a countertenor because it adds to the creepiness of Tolomeo):


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

The Duke of Mantua from Rigoletto.


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## Macbeth (Sep 6, 2017)

Iago comes first to my mind (That _"Credo"_!!) together with other classics as Scarpia, the multi-part baritone in Hoffmann's Tales, and Mephistofele from Berlioz's _La Damnation de Faust_, all of them archetypal villians, but what about the ones that are half victims half villians like Otello or, does Medea count as a villian or a heroine? Or both?


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## Macbeth (Sep 6, 2017)

Florestan said:


> But my favorite villian is probably Bowman as Tolomeo in Giulio Cesare (and the only instance where I like a countertenor because it adds to the creepiness of Tolomeo):


I love this production, especially for Janet Baker. Now I see Bowman again, he reminds me a lot of the baddy from Mike Myers movies.


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## VitellioScarpia (Aug 27, 2017)

How about: 
Turandot
Lady Macbeth 
Abigaille
Manon Lescaut 
Despina


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## Bettina (Sep 29, 2016)

Don Giovanni! He's such a sexy character. I don't care if he dumps me afterwards; I'm not looking for a committed relationship anyway.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Scarpia in Tosca. The most evil opera villain ever. I always love it when Floria Tosca does him in, and then after, exclaims, (approximately) "And to think all of Rome trembled before him!" and yet comes back and places a crucifix on his lifeless body. Devastating!


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

hpowders said:


> Scarpia in Tosca. The most evil opera villain ever. I always love it when Floria Tosca does him in, and then after, exclaims, (approximately) "And to think all of Rome trembled before him!" and yet comes back and places a crucifix on his lifeless body. Devastating!


I also like how when she stabs him she proclaims, "This is the kiss of Tosca!" Then she asks him if he is choking on his own blood and then says, "Die! Die! Die!" Apparently he was dying too slowly.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Florestan said:


> I also like how when she stabs him she proclaims, "This is the kiss of Tosca!" Then she asks him if he is choking on his own blood and then says, "Die! Die! Die!" Apparently he was dying too slowly.







Raimondi, Domingo, Malfitano - Tosca Act 2 - Scarpia's Death


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Florestan said:


> I also like how when she stabs him she proclaims, "This is the kiss of Tosca!" Then she asks him if he is choking on his own blood and then says, "Die! Die! Die!" Apparently he was dying too slowly.


"Muori!.....Muori..... MUORI!!!" as only Maria Callas could do in the recording with Titto Gobbi. Incomparable!


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Bettina said:


> Don Giovanni! He's such a sexy character. I don't care if he dumps me afterwards; I'm not looking for a committed relationship anyway.


You could change your name to Zerlina. Use it as a vanity license plate and also place it on your mailbox...and hope for the best.

I realize how irresistible, unfaithful men can be.


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## ICHTHUS (Sep 28, 2017)

Iago in Otello
Pinkerton in Madame Butterfly is one character I despise. In my mind he is one of the top deceptively sweet villains


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## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

Klytemnestra, especially sung by Podles or Varnay


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## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

honorable mention: Azucena, Lady Macbeth, Abigaille, Attila, Mephistopheles, Don Giovanni, Sparafucile

basses and contraltos <3


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## Amara (Jan 12, 2012)

Tolomeo
Baron Ochs
Abigaille
Iago
Scarpia


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## Nocture In Blue (Jun 3, 2015)

Hagen is the scariest villain I can think of. And when Gottlob Frick sings him he's scarier than ever.


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## Sonata (Aug 7, 2010)

Bellinilover said:


> I'm of the opinion that the Duke is the real villian in _Rigoletto_.
> 
> Anyway, my favorite villians are Jack Rance (_La fanciulla del West_), Count di Luna, and Eugene Onegin.
> 
> Edited to add: Oh, and I like Riccardo in _I Puritani_, too-- if he's even a villian (if he is, he's a pretty sentimental one).


Some stories have more than one villian, and if it's a nuanced opera, different TYPES of villians. I agree that there is villany in Rigoletto's heart as he is party to abduction and wrongful execution. If you consider it, it's the same in real life.


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