# "God, How Dark It Is Here"



## Xavier (Jun 7, 2012)

Here is an enjoyable commentary which describes the indefensible and most idiotic trend in opera today of moving away from an emphasis on the music, vocalists and conductors towards the self-involved director / production itself.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2009/jul/01/falstaff-opera-regieoper


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

Goodness gracious!


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## Xavier (Jun 7, 2012)

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> Goodness gracious!


Come again?

If you take away the music from an opera, but leave the staging, lighting, movement, costumes and so on, is what you have left an opera? Clearly not. If you remove everything apart from the music, is what you are left with an opera? The number of audio recordings and concert performances of operas would suggest that it is. The music is the one element which cannot be dispensed with, and Mr Wheatcroft is quite right to say that the music is the most important element.

Is it necessary always to follow slavishly the composer and librettist's original instructions? No, but any opera production must work with the music, not against it. Mr Wheatcroft's hugely enjoyable piece overstates its case, but his basic point is entirely valid - there are some producers, and as he says, Richard Jones is by no means the worst offender, who appear to be more interested in projecting some weird ideas of their own than serving the music.

There seems to be an unholy alliance between directors and opera critics which means that whatever nonsense is served up on the operatic stage has to be probed for deep significance instead of dismissed as the tosh it is.


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## StlukesguildOhio (Dec 25, 2006)

Regietheater... or rather Eurotrash productions seem based upon the notion that the artistic genius of the directors/producers is more important than that of the composer and librettist. Does this mean all productions must strictly adhere to the original productions in a purist manner. No... of course not. I have seen any number of lovely productions of operas given new life through a modern production:











The recent production of Galuppi's Baroque opera, _L'Olimpiade_ was clearly quite Minimalist. In some ways the staging might suggest Japanese aesthetic more than Baroque Venice... yet it never strays so far that we cannot sense the original intent of the composer.






But these productions still respect the original intentions of the composers and librettists.

But what is one to make of this:






The music is exquisite... but what the hell was the director thinking? Schreker's opera was set in Renaissance Italy. The protagonist was an Italian aristocrat and artist who also had a hunchback. Here he is re-imagined as a drag-queen dressed in a glittering pink disco ball gown and combat boots and he spend most of the overture applying the latest Mary Kay cosmetics?!

And it only gets worse... with more drag-queens and masked (yet topless) figures dressed in a cross between Mardi-Gras and the Venice Carnival and Cabaret/Goth-style.






*****


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## StlukesguildOhio (Dec 25, 2006)

But what is one to make when Verdi's _Un ballo en Maschera_ becomes:




























La damnation de Faust becomes a German Expressionist puppet show:










And the LA Opera's production of Wagner's Ring becomes a surreal mix of German Expressionism, the Cirque du Soleil, Saturday morning cartoons, Star Wars, TRON, and bobbleheads:










*****


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## StlukesguildOhio (Dec 25, 2006)

The $32M+ US production ended up millions in the red as audiences... for some unknown reason... didn't flock to see this dog, and the city of LA ended up having to foot a large portion of the bill. One can only hope that there is a lesson there to be learned about writing blank checks to idiot directors.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

Thanks for posting the article. I agreed with the gist of what Mr. Wheatcroft wrote. Stlukes also backs this up, opera can be done in a 'modern' way, but it has to make sense and not contradict the vision of the composer.

What Wheatcroft said here, it speaks to a mangling of one of my favourite operas,_ Fidelio_ -



> ...
> Some years ago Rodney Milnes, then opera critic of the Times, began a review wearily: "This is the production of Fidelio in which Florestan sings 'Gott, welch Dunkel hier!' in a pool of floodlights." ...


I've always imagined that scene to be in a dark prison, a dungeon. I've never seen the opera, only heard it on disc.

It speaks to a number of things. Poverty of invention is one. Not understanding the opera at hand is another. I mean the basics of the opera, it's plot, the historical context, the inspiration for it, etc. I was reading an interview with Elliott Carter saying classical music is for an elite, but today's elite is less educated than 100 years ago. We now have bankers, politicians, company heads, lawyers, intellectuals in every field outside music, but they only know about their narrow field of work to any great depth. I'm not talking of the members of this forum, I'm saying the opera audience. I think many of these people would not know of Schrecker, for example. Its not a problem, what I'm saying is if these are the conditions, the whole thing slides to the level we have now.

So extrapolating from that, I'd guess these star directors don't have much of a clue about opera, but they direct opera. Makes sense...NOT.

There are other factors as well. The fact that opera is a dead artform, so they have to 'sex it up' to make it current, which basically it's not. No need to 'sex up' a Beethoven symphony, or indeed one by say Stravinsky, as they speak for themselves. Now music theatre for most people is stage or Broadway musicals, the last thing they think of is opera.

Then there's the fact that there is no boundaries in taste anymore. They were planning, last time I checked, a musical based on_ American Psycho_, the horror novel. I asked, on the thread I made below, are there any limits to these kinds of things. Well, most people said there is no limit. So there you go, there is no limit. Its financially a 'blank cheque,' as it is morally and in other ways.

You can do what you want with anything nowadays, that seems to be the situation.

http://www.talkclassical.com/19246-things-you-think-inappropriate.html


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## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

StlukesguildOhio said:


> La damnation de Faust becomes a German Expressionist puppet show:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I dunno, those last two looked pretty interesting. I have to admit, the Ballo - were all your first three pics from the same production? - looked more like it would be good for a laugh than anything else.


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## Hesoos (Jun 9, 2012)

I'm scared of all the pictures in this thread


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## emiellucifuge (May 26, 2009)

Wow some of those photos look shocking! 

That being sad, I find a lot of this criticism rather hollow. A production doesnt necessarily have to conform to the way you 'imagined' the opera. Indeed, having Fidelio bathed in light while he sings 'how dark it is here' in itself seems like it could be a fascinating image.

I do believe the music and visual elements need to be consistent with eachother, but I find I am quite tolerant of 'regie' productions. In fact, I am thoroughly bored with productions that follow period and instruction to the letter... I dont feel they have much to offer a modern audience, and secondly Im sure many composers would have preferred their opera kept relevant to the time of performance, but this is a tricky claim...

What does annoy me is when directors bring associations into the performance which are completely out of line with the operas general 'geist'. This is what that LA Ring seems to do, but it is not what all modern stagings do and that is an important distinction.

As an example, I am very fond of the productions directed by the chief of the DNO, Pierre Audi. While his work isnt set in a traditional staging, it very closely follows the score and spirit of the work. In fact I would say that his stagings make them more powerful through his use of symbolism, colour and psychological elements. See here photos from the current Parsifal:







The final act after Parsifal has redeemed the brotherhood (in this case they all sink lifeless). The mirror from the second act is descending to fill the blue hole.

Here you see the mirror in the 2nd act, with Kundry and Parsifal:








In summation, I think updating productions is a good thing, but that there are too many directors who do not want to understand the work, and impose their own ideas onto it. I think this nuance is lacking in many discussions


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## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

I like that, right. Sometimes a new conception of an opera will capture the essentials and present them to you in more concentrated form. Like Willy Decker's Traviata. I mean, I wouldn't recommend the Netrebko/Villazon take on it, for reasons we won't go into here; but in the opera house it's a very direct blow.


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## Vesteralen (Jul 14, 2011)

I also think that slavish faithfulness to conventional staging can make opera even more boring that it already is.

On the other hand, when I watch an opera and the staging subtracts from rather than adds to my understanding and/or appreciation of the work, I may not be as bored, but I feel cheated and disrespected as a viewer.


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## superhorn (Mar 23, 2010)

As Mae West said , "Goodness has nothing to do with it !".


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## StlukesguildOhio (Dec 25, 2006)

I am quite tolerant of 'regie' productions. In fact, I am thoroughly bored with productions that follow period and instruction to the letter... I dont feel they have much to offer a modern audience...

So why not update the music as well with a little heavy metal and some hip-hop in order to bring in the crowd? Any given opera is a work of art... a product of the composer and librettist. It is their vision that is central. We don't find a conductor updating Beethoven's symphonies in order to make them more in line with his vision and desire to draw in the MTV crowd. We don't have editors rewriting Dickens or Tolstoy to make them resonate more with the fans of Harry Potter, Twilight, and Dan Brown. When I go to see _La Traviata_ or _Tristan und Isolde_ or _Le Nozze di Figaro_ it is the vision of Verdi, Wagner, and Mozart that I am interested in... not some third-rate German art school drop-out and hack director's "vision". I have no problem with new works of art that are essentially satires or Surreal re-imaginings of the art of the past... but then these should be clearly defined and marketed as such.

...and secondly Im sure many composers would have preferred their opera kept relevant to the time of performance, but this is a tricky claim...

Tricky indeed. And why are we to assume that the original opera as it stands is somehow no longer "relevant"? Are Shakespeare and Dickens also lacking in "relevance"? Does Michelangelo's Sistine need to be brought up to speed with the addition of Batman and the Avengers in Day-Glo colors?

What does annoy me is when directors bring associations into the performance which are completely out of line with the operas general 'geist'. This is what that LA Ring seems to do, but it is not what all modern stagings do and that is an important distinction.

I don't think this is in question. The examples I posted above are clearly "modern"... and yet respectful to the original intentions of the composer.


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## StlukesguildOhio (Dec 25, 2006)

I also think that slavish faithfulness to conventional staging can make opera even more boring that it already is.

If the opera is already "boring" (a value judgment on your part) why waste the time trying to sex it up? Why not simply write something new that isn't "boring"?


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## StlukesguildOhio (Dec 25, 2006)

It speaks to a number of things. Poverty of invention is one. Not understanding the opera at hand is another. I mean the basics of the opera, it's plot, the historical context, the inspiration for it, etc. I was reading an interview with Elliott Carter saying classical music is for an elite, but today's elite is less educated than 100 years ago. 

I think you miss the point, Sid. The "elite" is not an "elite" of class or wealth, but rather an "elite" by choice... an elective affinity... an audience who has made the conscious choice that this or that given art form is important to them, and as such are willing to invest the time and effort into the appreciation and understanding of this art form. Of course there still is a remnant of this notion that "classical music" or "fine art" are something reserved for the wealthy and the cultured... and there are those whose interest is more in attempting to appear cultured or sophisticated than in any actual pleasure derived from the work.

We now have bankers, politicians, company heads, lawyers, intellectuals in every field outside music, but they only know about their narrow field of work to any great depth.

And some of these may be generally interested (if not deeply passionate and knowledgeable about a given art form) while others are more interested in being seen and appearing cultured.

There are other factors as well. The fact that opera is a dead art-form...

How is that? As long as there are composers and other artists creating new operas... and as long as there is an audience passionate about opera, it is not a dead art-form.

No need to 'sex up' a Beethoven symphony, or indeed one by say Stravinsky, as they speak for themselves. 

And a Mozart opera or a Verdi opera or a Strauss opera don't speak for themselves. You could have fooled me... and the passionate fans who follow these.

Now music theatre for most people is stage or Broadway musicals, the last thing they think of is opera.

The fact that "most people"... or a far larger audience prefers a Broadway musical... or Lady Gaga to _Le Nozze di Figaro_, Twilight and Harry Potter to Dickens, Cervantes, and Shakespeare; or the latest Hollywood blockbuster film to an exhibition of paintings by Rembrandt in no way says anything about the "relevance" of these works. Is relevance measured solely in terms of audience share? If so... Mozart and Beethoven were never "relevant". It's not like the peasants and burghers of Vienna were crowding the seats to see _Don Giovanni_ or hear Beethoven's string quartets. And how many people of the time beyond the confines of Vienna ever even heard of these composers... in Norway or Argentina or Japan or Madagascar?


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

StlukesguildOhio said:


> ...
> I think you miss the point, Sid. The "elite" is not an "elite" of class or wealth, but rather an "elite" by choice... an elective affinity... an audience who has made the conscious choice that this or that given art form is important to them, and as such are willing to invest the time and effort into the appreciation and understanding of this art form. Of course there still is a remnant of this notion that "classical music" or "fine art" are something reserved for the wealthy and the cultured... and there are those whose interest is more in attempting to appear cultured or sophisticated than in any actual pleasure derived from the work.
> 
> ...
> And some of these may be generally interested (if not deeply passionate and knowledgeable about a given art form) while others are more interested in being seen and appearing cultured...


Well to reflect on what Elliott Carter said in that interview I was talking about. He said back in his day - early to mid 20th century - intellectuals in America where what I'd call 'real' intellectuals. He said he himself still has many first editions of books by writers of the time, like James Joyce. It was a common thing then. What do we have now? A lot of 'pseudo-intellectuals.' If they fill the opera houses for this stuff, what other conclusion can I make?

There is a scene in the film 'The Bucket List,' starring Jack Nicholson and Morgan Freeman that kind of talks to this. Nicholson plays a CEO of a private hospital. He's at a board meeting, a meeting of the board of directors of the company. He starts quoting from Goethe's_ Faust, _and asks does any of them know about Goethe. Not one person does! That's what I'm saying, that's what Fordist assembly line specialisation has led us to in 21st century. This is what they call 'progress' (or is it 'dumbing down?'). You be the judge.



> ...
> How is that? As long as there are composers and other artists creating new operas... and as long as there is an audience passionate about opera, it is not a dead art-form...


Well, Verdi's operas, the tunes from them, they were whistled in the streets back in his days. Of course, the connection to push for unification/independence of Italy. So opera was connected with the wide society. That's just one example, I can go on with more. Now what is opera? It's just a narcissistic gameshow for 'the elites' (however we define them). & I think this regietheater is a symptom of this. It's no longer relevant in even a small way for the wider society. Basically, to be crude, its disappeared up its own rear end.

I have no time to address the other things you said. Some I agree with, but on the whole I think that we are arguing only in detail. What you said before, the examples you gave, I agree with. Modern productions can be done in a sound way. But the idiotic examples you gave, such as making _Faust_ into the planet of the apes, that is ridiculous.


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

Oy vey iz mir.... :-/


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## Xavier (Jun 7, 2012)

This thread probably belongs here:

http://www.talkclassical.com/19990-several-problems-opera-opera.html


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## Xavier (Jun 7, 2012)

StlukesguildOhio said:


> So why not update the music as well with a little heavy metal and some hip-hop in order to bring in the crowd?




Unbelievably, this was done recently at the Brooklyn Philharmonic

_This season included the Beethoven Remix Project, which asked D.J.'s and musicians from around Brooklyn to propose new versions of the finale of the Eroica Symphony. The submissions were whittled down to five finalists: a varied, impressive lot, including a careening, surreal take from Andrew McLean and a menacing number from Boima Tucker, infused with tribal beats. _

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/06/11/a...monic-sets-out-on-ambitious-new-programs.html


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## quack (Oct 13, 2011)

"God, How Dark It Is Here". It is quite telling that someone would base their criticism of stagings on something like this. Does anyone really believe that Florestan, locked up unjustly with little hope of reprieve, is merely complaining about the ambiance of the place. He is being introspective and contemplating his fate, singing this in a floodlit stage would literally highlight that fact. Do the critics think the director of the opera was was blissfully ignorant or arrogantly dismissive of the libretto to disregard it and merely put the lights on for the sake of convenience.

I don't know the details of that staging but if it updated the setting to an oppressive 20th century regime then bright light seems very appropriate. Political prisoners aren't thrown into deep dark castle dungeons but more often oppressively bright, featureless cells to sap their will and strength. Beethoven wasn't writing an opera with a story from hundreds of years ago, his work was about events that might have happened in living memory and were probably still happening at the time. Why shouldn't modern staging reflect that and tell the story with as much immediacy rather than trying to construct a romanticised depiction of the past in the name of authenticity.

It is difficult to judge these productions from a few unusual pictures, a production obviously should be seen in its entirety to know if the occasional WTF moment actually works or not, just as an opera shouldn't be judged from a single aria.


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## StlukesguildOhio (Dec 25, 2006)

Now what is opera? It's just a narcissistic gameshow for 'the elites' (however we define them). & I think this regietheater is a symptom of this. It's no longer relevant in even a small way for the wider society.

How much more "relevant" to the wider society is the string quartet... or chamber music in general? Virtually the whole of atonal music... if not the whole of Modern/Contemporary "classical music"? If "relevance" is reduced to meaning a dominant market share then I fear the whole of art of any merit is already a lost cause.


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## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

quack said:


> "God, How Dark It Is Here". It is quite telling that someone would base their criticism of stagings on something like this. Does anyone really believe that Florestan, locked up unjustly with little hope of reprieve, is merely complaining about the ambiance of the place.


I admit it, when the opera house goes completely dark at this point in the opera, I feel more than slightly ridiculous. As you say, it's not about literal darkness, but about social darkness. Plus it's nice to be able to see the singer.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

quack said:


> "God, How Dark It Is Here". It is quite telling that someone would base their criticism of stagings on something like this. Does anyone really believe that Florestan, locked up unjustly with little hope of reprieve, is merely complaining about the ambiance of the place. ...*I don't know the details of that staging but if it updated the setting to an oppressive 20th century regime then bright light seems very appropriate.* Political prisoners aren't thrown into deep dark castle dungeons but more often oppressively bright, featureless cells to sap their will and strength ...


Well I see what you mean. Esp. re things like sleep deprivation, eg. putting people in cells with the lights on and waking them up all the time. Eventually, when people can't sleep, they go mad. So you've got a point about that, I admit.


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## MaestroViolinist (May 22, 2012)

Xavier said:


> Here is an enjoyable commentary which describes the indefensible and most idiotic trend in opera today of moving away from an emphasis on the music, vocalists and conductors towards the self-involved director / production itself.
> 
> http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2009/jul/01/falstaff-opera-regieoper


Why would anyone remove the music? It's mainly the music that creates the atmosphere.


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## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

StlukesguildOhio said:


> Regietheater... or rather Eurotrash productions seem based upon the notion that the artistic genius of the directors/producers is more important than that of the composer and librettist. Does this mean all productions must strictly adhere to the original productions in a purist manner. No... of course not. I have seen any number of lovely productions of operas given new life through a modern production:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


just got my headphones - what gorgeous music! I like your taste in music. Got to get some Rameau!


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

guythegreg said:


> just got my headphones - what gorgeous music! I like your taste in music. Got to get some Rameau!


That Indes Galantes DVD is one of my favourites.

For something that is equally fun in a rather wacky way there is also this:


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## MAuer (Feb 6, 2011)

guythegreg said:


> I admit it, when the opera house goes completely dark at this point in the opera, I feel more than slightly ridiculous. As you say, it's not about literal darkness, but about social darkness. Plus it's nice to be able to see the singer.


Actually, I think it's both. Beethoven (and originally Bouilly and Gaveaux) did intend for Florestan to be commenting upon the (literal) darkness and absence of life surrounding him. This is an unlit, subterranean dungeon; Leonore remarks about the cold when she enters it with Rocco. Of course, this was also a convenient way of explaining why she was shivering for quite a different reason, but in Ferdinando Paër's _Leonora_, also based on Bouilly's play, Florestano himself complains about the cold dampness of his prison. That said, Florestan's plaint is certainly also in reference to his social isolation.

I don't think anyone would want an extremely realistic interpretation of the scene. One can only imagine what a man incarcerated for two years without bathing or sanitary facilities would smell like!


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## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

MAuer said:


> I don't think anyone would want an extremely realistic interpretation of the scene. One can only imagine what a man incarcerated for two years without bathing or sanitary facilities would smell like!


lol you're right it would cut down on the audience's sympathy for the oppressed!


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## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

mamascarlatti said:


> That Indes Galantes DVD is one of my favourites.
> 
> For something that is equally fun in a rather wacky way there is also this:


EEK I'll never have enough money for all the opera I need ... sniff ...


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

guythegreg said:


> EEK I'll never have enough money for all the opera I need ... sniff ...


Les paladins - highlights: http://www.youtube.com/user/elias12186/videos?query=les+paladins

Les Indes Galantes - complete:


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## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

What wonderful music. Thanks, Natalie.


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## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

mamascarlatti said:


> Les paladins - highlights: http://www.youtube.com/user/elias12186/videos?query=les+paladins
> 
> Les Indes Galantes - complete:


And just so you know: I just ran out and bought Les Indes galantes AND Les Paladins, not to mention TWO Trovatores and the Roberto Alagna Lucie di Lammermoor which I've wanted forever ...


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

guythegreg said:


> And just so you know: I just ran out and bought Les Indes galantes AND Les Paladins,


Good for you. I think you won't regret them.



> not to mention TWO Trovatores and the Roberto Alagna Lucie di Lammermoor which I've wanted forever ...


But WHICH Trovatores?


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## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

the Mehta, with Domingo, Milnes and Price, and the von Karajan, with Corelli, Bastianini and Price.


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