# What are your favourite unexpected moments in music?



## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

What I mean is, sections of music which confound your expectations. Maybe someone has some examples of music which is made up entirely of unexpected moments.


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## MarkW (Feb 16, 2015)

Brahms is full of surprise moments that blow you away.

-- The first appearance of the second theme in the first movement of the g-minor piano quartet.

-- The meter change that begins the coda of the Violin Concerto's finale.

-- The trio of the B-flat piano concerto's scherzo.

to name three.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

MarkW said:


> Brahms is full of surprise moments that blow you away.
> 
> -- The first appearance of the second theme in the first movement of the g-minor piano quartet.
> 
> ...


It's a long long time since I last listened to any of these pieces, though I can imagine what you say is true because I remember the coda of the first movement of the first symphony being very surprising.

What I want to ask the forum is this. Do these surprising moments in Brahms clash with the coherence of the music? Are they a weakness or a strength, structurally, aesthetically?


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## mparta (Sep 29, 2020)

The false cadence at the end of the middle movement (ascending scale in the piano) of the Ravel G major piano concerto. First time I heard it, de Laroccha, felt like the top of my head was spinning off. Magic.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Here's an example of music which is made up entirely of unexpected moments, or so it seems to me. Does that make it bad?


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## MarkW (Feb 16, 2015)

Mandryka said:


> It's a long long time since I last listened to any of these pieces, though I can imagine what you say is true because I remember the coda of the first movement of the first symphony being very surprising.
> 
> What I want to ask the forum is this. Do these surprising moments in Brahms clash with the coherence of the music? Are they a weakness or a strength, structurally, aesthetically?


To my mind they are certainly an aesthetic strength. They are also characteristic (there's something like it in just about every major work -- almost a trademark.) They make your ears perk up and say "Wow!" without affecting the integrity of the work.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

MarkW said:


> To my mind they are certainly an aesthetic strength. They are also characteristic (there's something like it in just about every major work -- almost a trademark.) They make your ears perk up and say "Wow!" without affecting the integrity of the work.


Because there's so much integrity surrounding the discontinuity. I'd be interested in what you think of the Messiaen. In the second half of the twentieth century composers tried to maximise the discontinuity, and this gave them a challenge about coherence. I'm not sure what to say about Messiaen's response to that.

Another good example is Stockhausen, here. Stockhausen was mad about coherence and mad about discontinuity -- so it's interesting to see whether and how he squared the circle.


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## premont (May 7, 2015)

Mandryka said:


> What I mean is, sections of music which confound your expectations. Maybe someone has some examples of music which is made up entirely of unexpected moments.


The baroque Italian and North German keyboard toccatas are made up of several contrasting sections, which imply a certain degree of "unexpectedness".


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## MarkW (Feb 16, 2015)

Mandryka said:


> Because there's so much integrity surrounding the discontinuity. I'd be interested in what you think of the Messiaen. In the second half of the twentieth century composers tried to maximise the discontinuity, and this gave them a challenge about coherence. I'm not sure what to say about Messiaen's response to that.
> 
> Another good example is Stockhausen, here. Stockhausen was mad about coherence and mad about discontinuity -- so it's interesting to see whether and how he squared the circle.


I will admit to not having listened to Chronochromie in 50 years. I liked it when I heard it -- but was not a particularly sophisticated listener back then. I'll try to get to it and get back to you.


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## ORigel (May 7, 2020)

P.D.Q. Bach is full of them!


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## Allegro Con Brio (Jan 3, 2020)

No matter how many times I hear it and how much I expect it, I still can’t master the art of not physically flinching when I hear that last blastissimo orchestral chord of Mahler’s 6th. The first time I heard it I made the mistake of cranking the volume all the way up trying to hear the super-soft passage that preceded it. I think my heart almost leaped out of my chest.


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

Allegro Con Brio said:


> No matter how many times I hear it and how much I expect it, I still can't master the art of not physically flinching when I hear that last blastissimo orchestral chord of Mahler's 6th. The first time I heard it I made the mistake of cranking the volume all the way up trying to hear the super-soft passage that preceded it. I think my heart almost leaped out of my chest.


Ya, I'd say Mahler, in Symphony, takes the cake for most unexpected transitions. It's that rigidness in his music that makes it difficult for me to appreciate, at this time. I suspect it will grow on me with more listening, which I need to do.

:tiphat:


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## BrahmsWasAGreatMelodist (Jan 13, 2019)

Mandryka said:


> It's a long long time since I last listened to any of these pieces, though I can imagine what you say is true because I remember the coda of the first movement of the first symphony being very surprising.
> 
> *What I want to ask the forum is this. Do these surprising moments in Brahms clash with the coherence of the music? Are they a weakness or a strength, structurally, aesthetically?*


Great topic and great question Mandryka! It's something I've thought about (specifically regarding Brahms even).

I am sympathetic to the view that music which relies on the "element of surprise" for its own sake tends to be structurally deficient, just like music which is based off of sentimental outpourings (much of Tchaikovsky). However, to my mind, that does not mean that music which _surprises_ us as listeners is structurally deficient. There's a difference between music which surprises us and music which is built on surprise, and I think Brahms actually provides great insight into this distinction.

To provide a relatively concrete example, one thing which Brahms does frequently is that he uses syncopation in a way which distorts the usual "hierarchy" of beats in a measure, or at least makes it ambiguous. Maybe this isn't the best example, but since you mention the first symphony, listen to the end of the primary theme and the transition of the exposition from 3:10 to around 4:00






To me at least, the way Brahms plays with timing is full of surprises. But Brahms never changes the meter, nor compromises its integrity. To every push there's an equal and opposite pull. As you say there's "integrity surrounding the discontinuities". And Brahms doesn't just do this because he can; it serves as a perfect way of bridging the rigid beginning of the primary theme and the flowing secondary theme. So despite sounding surprising it is an aesthetic strength (an *essential* strength I would add) rather than a deficiency. I understand this isn't the best explanation and I'd be happy to go into more depth / specificity about what I mean an how similar concepts might apply to other kinds of "surprises" (especially Brahms).

Now, as to an example of "music which is made up entirely of unexpected moments":

I don't know whether you can call it music, but I've been enjoying this recently:






So maybe 4:33 then? But I think a lot of Cage could fit the bill.


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## BrahmsWasAGreatMelodist (Jan 13, 2019)

Gxdutigicihhgpic


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## MarkW (Feb 16, 2015)

Mandryka said:


> Because there's so much integrity surrounding the discontinuity. I'd be interested in what you think of the Messiaen. In the second half of the twentieth century composers tried to maximise the discontinuity, and this gave them a challenge about coherence. I'm not sure what to say about Messiaen's response to that.
> 
> Another good example is Stockhausen, here. Stockhausen was mad about coherence and mad about discontinuity -- so it's interesting to see whether and how he squared the circle.


Just listened to the Messiaen again and I still like it. Don't find it particularly random -- has a weird type of Messiaen-ish logic to it. But like Vingt Regards, or Turangalila, or the Quartet ..., you can't listen too many times without your brain turning to mush.
I personally find the first movement of the Mahler Second to be much more irritatingly disjoint.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

MarkW said:


> Just listened to the Messiaen again and I still like it. Don't find it particularly random -- has a weird type of Messiaen-ish logic to it.


Yes, but it's not obvious how it gets its coherence.

(Thanks for listening!)


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## SONNET CLV (May 31, 2014)

*What are your favourite unexpected moments in music?*

Over the years I've encountered quite a few of what might be termed "unexpected moments" in music. The problem with such moments is that once encountered they become moments of expectation when one again confronts the musical work that supplied them. Which, I suppose, is good reason to seek out new and unfamiliar music -- in the expectation of again encountering magical unexpected moments.

The one major work that to my ears consists of a series of "unexpected moments" (and delightfully to some degree still does for me, though I've heard it dozens upon dozens of times) is Stravinsky's _Rite of Spring_. The entire work unfolds layer after layer of unexpected music. Again, the work still surprises me after a half a century of repeated listens and study of the score, but if I could, I would cherish the opportunity to again hear it fresh for the first time. (I do recall that when I first heard the work I was not impressed and didn't much like it at all. Of course, I was young and ignorant about music and had little experience in listening beyond AM radio top-40 pop music play lists. And it took me some years to appreciate Stravinsky and the _Rite_.) I suspect I cherish unexpected moments, which is one reason _I_ seek out music new and unfamiliar.


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