# Johanness Brahms' Lonely Hearts Club Band



## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

Many of you here are aware of my aversion, or rather, struggle with Brahms. well, I'm happy to announce that I have solved the conundrum.

I always felt an emotional detachment in Brahms, as if he were somehow 'missing' some essential human element in his music. Previously, I wrote this off as some sort of 'classical' orientation which was purposefully creating the detached result; that may be true to an extent.

Yet, his lyrical melodies, and the general tenor of the music belied a strong Romantic aspect, which always seemed to exist in spite of the seeming classical detachment. It was a music of paradox because of this; a music of contradictory impulses which always confounded me.

Now I see where Brahms was coming from, as a man and as a composer. I've not read any biography of him, but from what I have gleaned elsewhere in liner notes and discussions, he was a somewhat lonely man, a bachelor, and had an unrequited love for Schumann's wife. Previously, I wrote this off as some sort of repressed libido neurosis, and that may still figure into all of this.

Now, my conclusion is that Brahms had "exiled himself" into an ascetic mode of artistic expression. Perhaps due to his temperament, perhaps due to a series of unfortunate experiences, he eventually detached himself, and withdrew into his own subjective world of artistic expression.

Brahms was unlike Beethoven in this regard. With Beethoven, we see a man who is socially engaged, and even despite his emerging deafness, which is something that would create detachment of some degree in most, his work culminated in the glorious Ninth, with its Ode to Joy, and a sense of a great love for Humanity, regardless of its flaws and differences.

Not so with Brahms. I now see his music as music of exile and detachment, introspective rather than outgoing. The yearnings are still there, but will not flower and bloom into social realities. He has accepted his fate, and his music is an ongoing testament to an internalized set of emotional expression and his feeling of detachment. We are faced with a music of asceticism; it is glorious in its own ways, but is ultimately the expression of a man in exile, who puts into his music all of the unrequited love and social engagement that humans so universally and normally crave.

Now, when I hear Brahms, I can relate to this. And as John Lennon observed in "Nowhere Man," isn't he a bit like you and me?


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## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

millionrainbows said:


> It was a music of paradox because of this; a music of contradictory impulses which always confounded me.


I think that is a good statement of how Brahms affects me also, particularly with regard to his sacred music. He was an unbeliever, but he wrote sacred music which speaks to me deeply as a believer.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Manxfeeder said:


> I think that is a good statement of how Brahms affects me also, particularly with regard to his sacred music. He was an unbeliever, but he wrote sacred music which speaks to me deeply as a believer.


As a humanist I can agree whit you :tiphat:


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## Cosmos (Jun 28, 2013)

I feel like my appreciation of Brahms went in the same direction: I ignored him, thinking he was too "classical" and "emotionally empty". But once I recognized the introversive qualities, the music started to feel warmer to me. And I think this inward sensibility is the reason I feel Brahms does better with smaller ensembles, and why I put his chamber music above the rest of his output.


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## Gouldanian (Nov 19, 2015)

millionrainbows said:


> I always felt an emotional detachment in Brahms, as if he were somehow 'missing' some essential human element in his music.


I almost choked on my bagel...


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Gouldanian said:


> I almost choked on my bagel...


Yes, my sentiment entirely. The most mysterious fact about Brahms for me is that he evokes such contradictory responses from people. Half say he's too classical and half say he's too romantic. Half say he's too extrovert and half say he's too introvert.

WTF is going on? My feeling it has all to do with the performances people have heard.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

His music could reflect his life-long "sexual confusion" ultimately resulting in the sad, lonely late solo piano pieces.


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## Harold in Columbia (Jan 10, 2016)

millionrainbows said:


> And as John Lennon observed in "Nowhere Man," isn't he a bit like you and me?


Rubber Brahms?

One of the most illuminating things I've had the privilege of reading about the composer, from Rosen's _The Classical Style_: "...[J]ust as the Handelian fugue in Mozart served to match the high seriousness of a sacred ritual, the sonata- forms in the symphonies and chamber music of Mendelssohn and Schumann are essays in decorum and respect. In these works, sadly out of favor today, the evocation of the past is only incidental: the intent was to attain the prestige of the style imitated. The sense of the irrecoverable past, however, is omnipresent in the music of Brahms, resignedly eclectic, ambiguous without irony. The depth of his feeling of loss gave an intensity to Brahms' work that no other imitator of the classical tradition ever reached : he may be said to have made music out of his openly expressed regret that he was born too late."

I would add only that "resignedly" works for Brahms from the _German Requiem_ onward, but not earlier.


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## Harold in Columbia (Jan 10, 2016)

I'm going to show this thread to the next person who tells me that Jan Swafford's couldn't-be-more-fashionable-if-he-tried prurient pop psycho-biographies are harmless.


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## Dr Johnson (Jun 26, 2015)

Ever since I first heard Brahms' music I thought that there was a deep vein of melancholy running through it. I felt this before I knew anything about his personal life.


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## Gouldanian (Nov 19, 2015)

Dr Johnson said:


> Ever since I first heard Brahms' music I thought that there was a deep vein of melancholy running through it. I felt this before I knew anything about his personal life.


I relate to your sentiment entirely.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

Cosmos said:


> I feel like my appreciation of Brahms went in the same direction: I ignored him, thinking he was too "classical" and "emotionally empty". But once I recognized the introversive qualities, the music started to feel warmer to me. And I think this inward sensibility is the reason I feel Brahms does better with smaller ensembles, and why I put his chamber music above the rest of his output.


I agree totally. But then this leaves me with the question of his symphonies. What is their significance? I'm working on it.


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## Biwa (Aug 3, 2015)

Dr Johnson said:


> Ever since I first heard Brahms' music I thought that there was a deep vein of melancholy running through it. I felt this before I knew anything about his personal life.


His violin sonatas are my favorites of the genre. A beautiful, melancholic blend of romantic lyricism with classical discipline.


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## Ilarion (May 22, 2015)

I was surprised that nobody of the Tc braintrust had yet commented about Brahms shattered childhood, ergo he had to play piano in the cathouses down at the Hamburg wharves where randy sailors coming off a long ocean passage could meet up with women and "do the nasty" and poor Johannes had to witness all sorts of debauchery, and most likely some lady probably "felt him up" - Imagine a very young teenager from a modest home with strict parents and then when the father dies, Johannes needed to be pressed into employment. 

The poor lad was so confused by the sexual debauchery that he clammed up instead of saying anything and then left for Vienna when he could not take it anymore. Yes, Hamburg raped his eyes so badly that he wound up as a bachelor. Clara Schumann is another chapter in his life which made it even more difficult for him to relate to women since he was attracted to her because she was such a formidable pianist.............

And yes, Brahms is one of my book-end composers.


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## MarkW (Feb 16, 2015)

I have always liked Brahms, never considered that aspect of his music -- except his compulsive privacy, late lugubriousness, and obsession with obscuring the bar line -- but now that you put it in words, I can't disagree with most of what you say. Very perceptive.


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## Strange Magic (Sep 14, 2015)

Dr Johnson said:


> Ever since I first heard Brahms' music I thought that there was a deep vein of melancholy running through it. I felt this before I knew anything about his personal life.


Interesting that while Tchaikovsky and Brahms got on well together, they detested one another's music. I never detected full melancholy in Brahms' music; rather a rich, golden autumnal sense or mood, perhaps coming from the fact that he did a lot of composing in the country, amid field and forest. If anything, there is a certain Sibelian quality in Brahms' symphonies that prefigures Sibelius himself. But the concertos I find to be free of melancholia, rather reflecting often a delight both in being alive and also in the ability to create such wonderful music. Brahms' orchestral colors for me are dark charcoal grey, silver, brown, butterscotch, honey gold, and so very rich. A little black and blue in the first movement of the first piano concerto, maybe, and welcome, too. But the mood seemed to pass.


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## Dr Johnson (Jun 26, 2015)

Strange Magic said:


> Interesting that while Tchaikovsky and Brahms got on well together, they detested one another's music. I never detected full melancholy in Brahms' music; rather a rich, golden autumnal sense or mood, perhaps coming from the fact that he did a lot of composing in the country, amid field and forest. If anything, there is a certain Sibelian quality in Brahms' symphonies that prefigures Sibelius himself. But the concertos I find to be free of melancholia, rather reflecting often a delight both in being alive and also in the ability to create such wonderful music. Brahms' orchestral colors for me are dark charcoal grey, silver, butterscotch, honey gold, and so very rich. A little black and blue in the first movement of the first piano concerto, maybe, and welcome, too. But the mood seemed to pass.


To be fair, I did say "a deep vein of melancholy", rather than, e.g totally melancholic. 

Interesting about Brahms and Tchaikovsky.


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## Strange Magic (Sep 14, 2015)

Ilarion said:


> I was surprised that nobody of the Tc braintrust had yet commented about Brahms shattered childhood, ergo he had to play piano in the cathouses down at the Hamburg wharves where randy sailors coming off a long ocean passage could meet up with women and "do the nasty" and poor Johannes had to witness all sorts of debauchery, and most likely some lady probably "felt him up" - Imagine a very young teenager from a modest home with strict parents and then when the father dies, Johannes needed to be pressed into employment.
> 
> The poor lad was so confused by the sexual debauchery that he clammed up instead of saying anything and then left for Vienna when he could not take it anymore. Yes, Hamburg raped his eyes so badly that he wound up as a bachelor. Clara Schumann is another chapter in his life which made it even more difficult for him to relate to women since he was attracted to her because she was such a formidable pianist.............
> 
> And yes, Brahms is one of my book-end composers.


Actually, I did. In the thread on gay composers a few days back. Got the info from accounts in Harold Schonberg's book and from Brockway and Weinstock's also. No effect on my very long-held esteem for Johannes, one of my top faves.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

It's surprising to me, now that I have 'confessed' my reaction to Brahms, that many, if not all of the qualities, which were obstacles to me, now resolved, turn out to be the exact same qualities which long-time Brahms lovers have always known, and yet accept them for what they are. This must be more of a subjective phenomena than I realized, because we all seem to be hearing the same things in his music. Thanks for all the great input, and by all means, let us continue.


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## regenmusic (Oct 23, 2014)

Manxfeeder said:


> I think that is a good statement of how Brahms affects me also, particularly with regard to his sacred music. He was an unbeliever, but he wrote sacred music which speaks to me deeply as a believer.


Where do you get that Brahms was an unbeliever? He is the one relatively modern composer that gets championed as a great believer. There is a famous controversy regarding a musical biographer of sorts who wrote a book on the religious life of composers who wrote intensely on this. Perhaps someone else has the details.


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## regenmusic (Oct 23, 2014)

It probably would be a good idea to start a thread on Brahms' religious views if there is not one already.

Here is one backup of the opinion in my previous post:

https://books.google.com/books?id=_...AJ#v=onepage&q=brahms religious views&f=false


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## isorhythm (Jan 2, 2015)

regenmusic said:


> Where do you get that Brahms was an unbeliever? He is the one relatively modern composer that gets championed as a great believer. There is a famous controversy regarding a musical biographer of sorts who wrote a book on the religious life of composers who wrote intensely on this. Perhaps someone else has the details.


This is a silly anti-religion site, but it compiles the relevant details. I think Dvorak's letter is the most telling - it's hard to explain it any other way.

http://ffrf.org/outreach/item/18436-brahms-the-freethinker


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## Strange Magic (Sep 14, 2015)

regenmusic said:


> Where do you get that Brahms was an unbeliever? He is the one relatively modern composer that gets championed as a great believer. There is a famous controversy regarding a musical biographer of sorts who wrote a book on the religious life of composers who wrote intensely on this. Perhaps someone else has the details.


Brockway and Weinstock, in _Men of Music_, when commenting on Ein deutsches Requiem, observe that "No soul-lifting faith in the transcendental aspects of religion shines from it. Brahms had no such faith. At best, he had a homely respect for the Good Book. He repeatedly stated, for instance, that he had no belief in life after death."

On another plane entirely, B&W slyly quote George Bernard Shaw, who said that listening to the _Requiem_ was a sacrifice that should be asked of a man only once in his life. I have no comment.


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## regenmusic (Oct 23, 2014)

Harold in Columbia said:


> Rubber Brahms?
> 
> One of the most illuminating things I've had the privilege of reading about the composer, from Rosen's _The Classical Style_: "...[J]ust as the Handelian fugue in Mozart served to match the high seriousness of a sacred ritual, the sonata- forms in the symphonies and chamber music of Mendelssohn and Schumann are essays in decorum and respect. In these works, sadly out of favor today, the evocation of the past is only incidental: the intent was to attain the prestige of the style imitated. The sense of the irrecoverable past, however, is omnipresent in the music of Brahms, resignedly eclectic, ambiguous without irony. The depth of his feeling of loss gave an intensity to Brahms' work that no other imitator of the classical tradition ever reached : he may be said to have made music out of his openly expressed regret that he was born too late."
> 
> I would add only that "resignedly" works for Brahms from the _German Requiem_ onward, but not earlier.


Maybe if he was a great believer as some seem to ascertain by first hand analysis of Brahm's Bible and other more intimate analysis than a single letter to someone else, this lamenting aspect of his work is maybe his awareness that Christianity as major force in society was passing away. That's not farfetched. And if Schuman wanted his Bible near the end of his life, this religious aspect may have been in their friendship.


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## Harold in Columbia (Jan 10, 2016)

millionrainbows said:


> It's surprising to me, now that I have 'confessed' my reaction to Brahms, that many, if not all of the qualities, which were obstacles to me, now resolved, turn out to be the exact same qualities which long-time Brahms lovers have always known, and yet accept them for what they are.


It's an unpleasant truth that when I realize/admit to myself exactly what is bugging me about an artist, I often find that all my exquisite arguments demonstrating that they totally suck were actually just a cover-up for my inability to pin that down.


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## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

regenmusic said:


> Where do you get that Brahms was an unbeliever? He is the one relatively modern composer that gets championed as a great believer. There is a famous controversy regarding a musical biographer of sorts who wrote a book on the religious life of composers who wrote intensely on this. Perhaps someone else has the details.


This is from the article "Brahms the Freethinker" from the Freedom From Religion website about Dvorak's encounter with Brahms: "As the two of them talked," Swafford writes about one of their long conversations, "Brahms rambled on about his agnosticism, his growing interest in Schopenhauer, the philosopher of pessimism (Wagner's favorite). On the way back to his hotel with violinist Josef Suk, Dvorák was thoughtful and silent. Suddenly he exclaimed with real anguish, 'Such a man, such a fine soul--and he believes in nothing! He believes in nothing!'"

[Update: I just saw isorhythm citing the same article. Sorry for the redundancy.]


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## D Smith (Sep 13, 2014)

Mandryka said:


> Yes, my sentiment entirely. The most mysterious fact about Brahms for me is that he evokes such contradictory responses from people. Half say he's too classical and half say he's too romantic. Half say he's too extrovert and half say he's too introvert.


For me, like the three bowls of porridge, I have found Brahm's music neither too hot or cold, but just right. To call his music detached just mystifies me as it has always evoked the strongest emotional responses. But to each their own.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Heck, with the HUGE exception of his music, Brahms could be me. 

I recognize and empathize with what must have been torturing him, leading him to his inevitable senior years of lonliness. Been there. Done that. Minus the genius!


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

D Smith said:


> For me, like the three bowls of porridge, I have found Brahm's music neither too hot or cold, but just right. To call his music detached just mystifies me as it has always evoked the strongest emotional responses. But to each their own.


Yes well you're the third half.

This has always been the case with Brahms right from the start of his reception history. There are reviews of early performances saying he's too sentimental, others saying he's too cold. There's a great essay about it by Peter Gay called "Aimez-Vous Brahms?"

Re the discussion of religion, he wrote quite a bit of Christian music. I don't have a biography, but does anyone know why he wrote op 122? The religious stuff seems to me pretty heart-felt, but I'm an atheist so I guess I'm no real judge.

One aspect of Brahms which I'd like to know more about is whether he was influenced by early music, I know he was interested in Renaissance and early baroque. Froberger I think.


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## Xaltotun (Sep 3, 2010)

Millionrainbows, I feel your analysis is completely spot on. This was a man of great passions coupled with great inhibitions. He wants to be 'classical' but his passion rages and tries to tear him free from the shackles. Yet his inhibitions attack the passions and tie them up even tighter. He's like the Nordic god Loki, tied up with _his own_ entrails in an underground cavern, poison dripping on his face. He is indeed heroic; yet because of his scepticism in great ideas he doesn't think this heroism amounts to much in the end, and a final melancholy results. He will keep chaining himself, restraining his passions, and keeping his morals; yet he doesn't see this as a final victory, but a sour fate - the _only_ fate he is allowed to have, because he systematically denies all the other options.


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## Xaltotun (Sep 3, 2010)

And yes he hates Tchaikovsky for the reason that Tchaikovsky does exactly the thing he himself dreads above all else: talking about his emotions openly. Both have the same frustration, but Brahms veils his emotions about it. Tchaikovsky completely lacks the Brahmsian heroism of self-negation.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

Xaltotun said:


> And yes he hates Tchaikovsky for the reason that Tchaikovsky does exactly the thing he himself dreads above all else: talking about his emotions openly. Both have the same frustration, but Brahms veils his emotions about it. Tchaikovsky completely lacks the Brahmsian heroism of self-negation.


Hey, I'll use that one on my wife next time she accuses me of being closed-off emotionally!


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## Strange Magic (Sep 14, 2015)

Xaltotun said:


> Millionrainbows, I feel your analysis is completely spot on. This was a man of great passions coupled with great inhibitions. He wants to be 'classical' but his passion rages and tries to tear him free from the shackles. Yet his inhibitions attack the passions and tie them up even tighter. He's like the Nordic god Loki, tied up with _his own_ entrails in an underground cavern, poison dripping on his face. He is indeed heroic; yet because of his scepticism in great ideas he doesn't think this heroism amounts to much in the end, and a final melancholy results. He will keep chaining himself, restraining his passions, and keeping his morals; yet he doesn't see this as a final victory, but a sour fate - the _only_ fate he is allowed to have, because he systematically denies all the other options.


Wagner should have written an opera about Brahms!


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## Harold in Columbia (Jan 10, 2016)

Xaltotun said:


> And yes he hates Tchaikovsky for the reason that Tchaikovsky does exactly the thing he himself dreads above all else: talking about his emotions openly.


I think he hates Chaikovsky because Chaikovsky writes too many scales.


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## Dim7 (Apr 24, 2009)

He wrote two awesome intros (Piano Concerto No. 1 first movement, Symphony No. 1 first movement) and one awesome coda (Symphony no. 4 first movement). Other than that I find him quite dull and don't get the appeal.


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## tdc (Jan 17, 2011)

I find Brahms use of harmony and development quite profound, especially in the symphonies. I think its important to not get caught up in certain perceptions of the externalities, but to try and get to the inner content of the work which is very rich and unique and incredibly well-wrought. The outer surfaces can seem laborious or a little stiff at times, but that is not where the true reward of the music lies. In this sense I find Brahms 'deeper' than most composers.

All these thoughts about Brahms personal life and beliefs can be interesting but can only take one so far in my opinion and in the end I don't think they do the music justice. I think when a deep understanding of the music is reached it is known, but not really explainable, at least not in such simple ways. 

Was Brahms lonely? Sure, he was human.


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## Cosmos (Jun 28, 2013)

Dim7 said:


> He wrote two awesome intros (Piano Concerto No. 1 first movement, Symphony No. 1 first movement) and one awesome coda (Symphony no. 4 first movement). Other than that I find him quite dull and don't get the appeal.


_psst_, try the piano quartets!


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

As Brahms aged his music became 1. cataclysmic and full of impending doom-the fourth movement of his great Fourth Symphony, as well as 2. deeply introverted, lonely with an autumnal sadness, as his late solo piano pieces demonstrate, as well as in large portions of his two incredibly magnificent Clarinet Sonatas.

This was not a happy man near the end of his life. I completely understand him.


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## SONNET CLV (May 31, 2014)

Strange Magic said:


> Wagner should have written an opera about Brahms!


Wagner could have titled it _Die andere Meistersinger_, with thought of the very origin of the word meistersinger -- "master" "singer" or great music maker.

I confess to loving Brahms since I first heard the First Symphony, which when I first did hear it, by way of a radio broadcast when I was quite young, I had no idea who the composer of the piece was -- only that I loved the music. Eventually I came to hear it again, and again, and eventually learned it was the first symphony by a fellow named Brahms, into whose music I then began to delve more deeply, seeking out the other symphonies and whatever came my way. I have by now heard (and studied) much to most of what Brahms composed, and much of it dozens of times.

If there is a sense of melancholy in the music, I have always taken it to be music which laments that Brahms had to follow in the shadow of his idol, Beethoven. That he never quite escaped that looming presence, except, perhaps, with the Hungarian Dances which are derivative in a different sense, seems evident in that melancholic strain. Could Brahms, who admired Johann Strauss's waltzes, be one who is obsessed by melancholy? Probably not.

I have always found the three piano sonatas to be the story of Brahms's love for CS. The first seems a youth's assertion of that love, undaunted and pure (in a masterfully constructed sonata form). The second seems to verge into confusion, where the maddening obsession takes control over form, almost to a point of destruction. The third seems to be a point of reflection in a calmer state of being, having worked through the obsession and regained control; a state in which the fondness of memory triumphs but the vividness of the emotion will not destroy. I find it interesting that Brahms never returned to the piano sonata after the three youthful works. Could it be that this monument to his love for Clara would remain unencumbered by additional ventures into the form? Did he reserve the piano sonata for his love for her, for his memory of her, only? (The piano was Clara's instrument, after all.)

In any case, to my ears the Third Symphony is a warm, communal work. And so, I would venture, is the great _Ein deutsches Requiem_ which I would contend reveals that Brahms may not have been a sincere religionist but certainly did _believe_ in something worth believing in -- the glory of Mankind.

In fact, for those who side with the humanistic opinion that "man created God in his own image" and not the other way around, Brahms must truly be a pinnacle of _realistic_ belief.

(All of this just goes to show what sort of nonsense one can compose after coming home from a local bar at which a couple of guitar playing friends were entertaining the patrons with folk ballads and light rock from the sixties and seventies. To have listened to tunes by Blind Faith, Canned Heat, and Greg Trooper (among others) and then to reflect upon Brahms ....)

(Greg Trooper, by the way, composed the song titled "Don't Let It Go To Waste" which features the great lyric concerning a girl named Alice:
You start and won't stop laughing
When I try to hold you tight
I think you're as lonely as a Sunday morning
That's never had a Saturday night

Does anyone think those last two lines also describe Brahms?"

-- I have to stay away from bars!)


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## regenmusic (Oct 23, 2014)

SONNET CLV said:


> I have always found the three piano sonatas to be the story of Brahms's love for CS.


I thought Clara Schumann had an otherworldly beauty, as can be seen in this picture. Imagine what it would be like being in such a presence. Click on the image to get a larger view.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Xaltotun said:


> yet because of his [Brahms's] scepticism in great ideas


Why do you say this?



Xaltotun said:


> and a final melancholy results.


What do you think of his final piano piece, op 119/4? Melancholy?


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## Richannes Wrahms (Jan 6, 2014)

I have no idea why I like Brahms, but I do.


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## jegreenwood (Dec 25, 2015)

hpowders said:


> As Brahms aged his music became 1. cataclysmic and full of impending doom-the fourth movement of his great Fourth Symphony, as well as 2. deeply introverted, lonely with an autumnal sadness, as his late solo piano pieces demonstrate, as well as in large portions of his two incredibly magnificent Clarinet Sonatas.
> 
> This was not a happy man near the end of his life. I completely understand him.


I read the Swafford biography last fall in conjunction with a music appreciation course I took on Brahms. Clara Schumann was among the first (and longest lasting) of a number of women for whom Brahms had romantic yearnings, always unresolved in life, but often expressed through his music (sometimes cryptically through motifs).

I would distinguish between the Fourth Symphony and the Clarinet Sonatas. They were composed a decade apart. The Fourth Symphony comes at a time when Brahms is at the height of his artistic and commercial success - indeed it is probably the culmination. He was still to write the double concerto and a number of major chamber works (not least the revision of Op. 8, which together with the symphonies, was my pathway into his music) before he announced his "retirement" six years later. Of course he re-emerged not long after, inspired by the sound of Richard Muhlfeld's clarinet. The last works certainly have an autumnal quality, but it is one that I hear in much earlier works as well, such as the Deutsches Requiem and so many slow movements.

Brahms' very last years were unhappy ones. The death of Clara and his own illness were major factors, but so was his realization that music was turning in a different direction, and that there might not be anyone to follow in his path.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Richannes Wrahms said:


> I have no idea why I like Brahms, but I do.


Don't worry to much, there are loads out there with the same feelings :tiphat:


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

tdc said:


> I find Brahms use of harmony and development quite profound, especially in the symphonies. I think its important to not get caught up in certain perceptions of the externalities, but to try and get to the inner content of the work which is very rich and unique and incredibly well-wrought. The outer surfaces can seem laborious or a little stiff at times, but that is not where the true reward of the music lies. In this sense I find Brahms 'deeper' than most composers.
> 
> All these thoughts about Brahms personal life and beliefs can be interesting but can only take one so far in my opinion and in the end I don't think they do the music justice. I think when a deep understanding of the music is reached it is known, but not really explainable, at least not in such simple ways.
> 
> Was Brahms lonely? Sure, he was human.


That's a nice balanced response which includes the human aspects up to, but not beyond a certain point wher it interferes with perception of the music.

Yet, there is an old bluegrass saying, which was in a collection of old-time fiddlers: "When we listen to these bluegrass fiddlers, we are listening to *the man *as much as we are listening to the music."

And isn't this true in the case of Brahms? After all, it was the music which puzzled me at first, and it turned out that the music was largely a reflection of his emotional makeup; and once I understood this, the music seemed to fall into place very naturally.

So let's remember that there is more than one way to approach music, and sometimes the "extra-musical baggage" can actually aid us in this undertaking.

As far as the music itself, it is so well-crafted that there is plenty to keep us undistracted. Lately, I am listening for the rhythmic motives which seem to proliferate in the symphonic works. These are very interesting little mechanisms.

Like Harold said, the symphonic works seem to have a special purpose in Brahms' work, as opposed to the chamber works:

~


Harold in Columbia said:


> Rubber Brahms?
> 
> One of the most illuminating things I've had the privilege of reading about the composer, from Rosen's _The Classical Style_: "...[J]ust as the Handelian fugue in Mozart served to match the high seriousness of a sacred ritual, the sonata- forms in the symphonies and chamber music of Mendelssohn and Schumann are essays in decorum and respect. In these works, sadly out of favor today, the evocation of the past is only incidental: the intent was to attain the prestige of the style imitated. The sense of the irrecoverable past, however, is omnipresent in the music of Brahms, resignedly eclectic, ambiguous without irony. The depth of his feeling of loss gave an intensity to Brahms' work that no other imitator of the classical tradition ever reached : he may be said to have made music out of his openly expressed regret that he was born too late."
> 
> I would add only that "resignedly" works for Brahms from the _German Requiem_ onward, but not earlier.


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## Ilarion (May 22, 2015)

hpowders said:


> Heck, with the HUGE exception of his music, Brahms could be me.
> 
> I recognize and empathize with what must have been torturing him, leading him to his inevitable senior years of lonliness. Been there. Done that. Minus the genius!


Oh Bosh, hpowders - You are quite the intellectual here on Tc - Having read almost all your postings on Tc I can verify that you are quite intelligent...So knock off the self-deprecation, will ya? :tiphat::tiphat::tiphat:


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## Ilarion (May 22, 2015)

isorhythm said:


> This is a silly anti-religion site, but it compiles the relevant details. I think Dvorak's letter is the most telling - it's hard to explain it any other way.
> 
> http://ffrf.org/outreach/item/18436-brahms-the-freethinker


Isorhythm, You da Man - Thanx for the link:tiphat::clap::cheers:


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Harold in Columbia said:


> Rubber Brahms?
> 
> One of the most illuminating things I've had the privilege of reading about the composer, from Rosen's _The Classical Style_: "... his *openly expressed regret that he was born too late*."


Does Rosen site a reference for that? I have the book but I can't find the quote. What did Brahms actually say?

(Just a page number would do)


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

millionrainbows said:


> And isn't this true in the case of Brahms? After all, it was the music which puzzled me at first, and it turned out that the music was largely a reflection of his emotional makeup
> 
> ~


Be careful that you don't project _your _emotional response to a certain performance of the music onto the composer. "Oh yeah, that performance by XXX makes me feel all nostalgic and introspective, so Brahms was sad and nostalgic . . . "

You see, that's what I think you're doing all the time.


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## Harold in Columbia (Jan 10, 2016)

Mandryka said:


> Does Rosen site a reference for that? I have the book but I can't find the quote. What did Brahms actually say?


Rosen makes no citation there. I think he may be alluding to Brahms' allegedly saying that it would have been wonderful to live in Mozart's time, when composing music was easy, which he quotes in various forms elsewhere, but also without citation, and I can't find a citation anywhere else either, though it seems to me that I knew it before reading anything by Rosen.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Harold in Columbia said:


> Rosen makes no citation there. I think he may be alluding to Brahms' allegedly saying that it would have been wonderful to live in Mozart's time, when composing music was easy, which he quotes in various forms elsewhere, but also without citation, and I can't find a citation anywhere else either, though it seems to me that I knew it before reading anything by Rosen.


Yes well saying that it would be wonderful to have lived in Mozart's time doesn't imply regretting that you're born too late!


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## Harold in Columbia (Jan 10, 2016)

Mandryka said:


> Yes well saying that it would be wonderful to have lived in Mozart's time doesn't imply regretting that you're born too late!


It does when you mean "wonderful, as opposed to the misery of living in my own time, when composing music is hard."


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## Alydon (May 16, 2012)

I've only just got back into Brahms after a long absence by listening to the two piano concertos which I'm fairly unfamiliar with. Certainly, over a week's immersion in these works has given me a far greater appreciation of this composer than I had before. Of course, I've played quiet a bit of Brahms over the years but I've always viewed his work as burnished and autumnal, music which was full of regret and faded beauty and solid and well-made rather than earth-shattering. I now believe the two piano concertos alone put Brahms in the very highest bracket of inspiration and composition, and though he is a composer hard to get to know, it's certainly worth the wait.


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## Petwhac (Jun 9, 2010)

People are complex and have complex internal and external lives. We also compartmentalise many things in our lives. To take one known conflict in someone's life and find it permeating their art is a mistake. Where in Mozart's music do we find his reported scatological interests? 
I think Brahms was a classicist in the same way Ravel was. There is much passion and joy in Brahms for sure. Perhaps also some self consciousness.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Petwhac said:


> People are complex and have complex internal and external lives. We also compartmentalise many things in our lives. To take one known conflict in someone's life and find it permeating their art is a mistake. Where in Mozart's music do we find his reported scatological interests?
> I think Brahms was a classicist in the same way Ravel was. There is much passion and joy in Brahms for sure. Perhaps also some self consciousness.


Alas, half off them don't even realise it :tiphat:


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## JosefinaHW (Nov 21, 2015)

Ilarion said:


> Oh Bosh, hpowders - You are quite the intellectual here on Tc - Having read almost all your postings on Tc I can verify that you are quite intelligent...So knock off the self-deprecation, will ya? :tiphat::tiphat::tiphat:[/QUOTE
> 
> Glad you swooped in from the heavens--as you always do--and said this, Ilarion! HPowders, you have so much to be truly grateful for and so many wonderful friends here on TC! I think it would be wonderful to join you everyday for a cafe-au-lait!


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## Ilarion (May 22, 2015)

JosefinaHW said:


> Ilarion said:
> 
> 
> > Oh Bosh, hpowders - You are quite the intellectual here on Tc - Having read almost all your postings on Tc I can verify that you are quite intelligent...So knock off the self-deprecation, will ya? :tiphat::tiphat::tiphat:[/QUOTE
> ...


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## TxllxT (Mar 2, 2011)

Well, I do relate to Brahms' music but not to a 'lonely hearts club'- Brahms, (nor -Lennon, nor -Beatles). Somehow I like Brahms as a passer-by, not tête-à-tête... With someone like Tchaikovsky it is the other way around.


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## SONNET CLV (May 31, 2014)

regenmusic said:


> I thought Clara Schumann had an otherworldly beauty, as can be seen in this picture. Imagine what it would be like being in such a presence. Click on the image to get a larger view.
> 
> View attachment 82910


And she played a mean piano, too!


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## Strange Magic (Sep 14, 2015)

SONNET CLV said:


> And she played a mean piano, too!


Her piano concerto, while not brilliant, is a quite pleasant piece of music.


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## Andolink (Oct 29, 2012)

Ilarion said:


> JosefinaHW said:
> 
> 
> > When I find myself in the midst of really smart people here on Tc, I wince when they self-deprecate.
> ...


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

Mandryka said:


> Be careful that you don't project _your _emotional response to a certain performance of the music onto the composer. "Oh yeah, that performance by XXX makes me feel all nostalgic and introspective, so Brahms was sad and nostalgic . . . "
> 
> You see, that's what I think you're doing all the time.


I'm doing it all the time? Thanks for the 'diagnosis.' :lol:

Maybe there is a more positive answer; I'm empathizing with those universal qualities which are common to all humans, especially as they become older and wiser.

Just as hpowders said:


> Heck, with the HUGE exception of his music, Brahms could be me.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


And as I said earlier,


> ...many, if not all of the qualities, which were obstacles to me, now resolved, turn out to be the exact same qualities which long-time Brahms lovers have always known, and yet accept them for what they are. This must be more of a universal phenomena than I realized, because we all seem to be hearing the same things in his music...


Gee, mandryka, you make it sound as if these Brahms revelations of mine are some sort of neurosis.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

millionrainbows said:


> I'm doing it all the time? Thanks for the 'diagnosis.' :lol:
> 
> Maybe there is a more positive answer; I'm empathizing with those universal qualities which are common to all humans, especially as they become older and wiser.


Yesterday I found myself driving in Muswell Hill/Highgate, down some streets I hadn't seen for 20 years. Today I listened to Charles Trenet's setting of Paul Verlain's poem "Les sanglots longs." And I was struck both times how ideas like _autumnal _and _nostalgia_ are things unto themselves, and are not at all glossed by ideas like "sad." I learned a similar thing about _grief_ a few years ago.

Anyway maybe I was wrong. Maybe the more boisterous music in late Brahms is perfectly consistent with the idea that his music is expressive of autumnal nostalgia. I feel as though I know nothing about emotions . .

Returning more directly to your post, it was an error of logic that I was laying on you.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

Mandryka said:


> Yesterday I found myself driving in Muswell Hill/Highgate, down some streets I hadn't seen for 20 years. Today I listened to Charles Trenet's setting of Paul Verlain's poem "Les sanglots longs." And I was struck both times how ideas like _autumnal _and _nostalgia_ are things unto themselves, and are not at all glossed by ideas like "sad." I learned a similar thing about _grief_ a few years ago.
> 
> Anyway maybe I was wrong. Maybe the more boisterous music in late Brahms is perfectly consistent with the idea that his music is expressive of autumnal nostalgia. I feel as though I know nothing about emotions . .
> 
> Returning more directly to your post, it was an error of logic that I was laying on you.


Mandryka, you are just as right as you are wrong. I project stuff all the time. All I know is, I feel more connected to humanity the more I realize that they are just as flawed as I am. No, Brahms is not a super-hero, but just a man. But we all have a lot of beautiful things in us, if we can cultivate and nurture these, and Brahm's beautiful music is one way that helps. Wouldn't you have loved to actually talk to the man, sitting outside as evening falls?

Brahms was complicated, and so are emotions, and states of being. That Sunflower Sutra reminds me of the industrial West Texas town of around 1959, and the grime and diesel fumes were 'things unto themselves,' so I think I know. Muswell was part of WWII and so I can imagine the same sort of reality you speak of. Maybe we are using shorthand, conveniences...


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Ilarion said:


> Oh Bosh, hpowders - You are quite the intellectual here on Tc - Having read almost all your postings on Tc I can verify that you are quite intelligent...So knock off the self-deprecation, will ya? :tiphat::tiphat::tiphat:


Finally a post that I am at a loss of words to respond to. I'll take a shot at it anyway:

Thank you!!


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

JosefinaHW said:


> Ilarion said:
> 
> 
> > Oh Bosh, hpowders - You are quite the intellectual here on Tc - Having read almost all your postings on Tc I can verify that you are quite intelligent...So knock off the self-deprecation, will ya? :tiphat::tiphat::tiphat:[/QUOTE
> ...


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Ilarion said:


> JosefinaHW said:
> 
> 
> > Thank you, JosefinaHW. :tiphat: I am a commoner - When I find myself in the midst of really smart people here on Tc, I wince when they self-deprecate.
> ...


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## Steatopygous (Jul 5, 2015)

I've only got through two pages, but that's enough. I think there's a huge amount of over-psychologising going on, often on the most tenuous information or understanding. Just enjoy the magnificent music for what it is, or - if you feel no sympathy for it - don't listen. No composer appeals to everyone. 
If I can now be the one to project, I don't think Brahms would care very much. 
BTW, I quite enjoyed the Swafford biography. But it's the only one of his that I have read. What's the problem with it?


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## Xaltotun (Sep 3, 2010)

Mandryka said:


> Why do you say this?


Well, first of all, the famous Dvorak quote. "He believes in nothing!" etc. Second, that's the feeling that I get from his music. There's struggle, suffering, melancholy... very little triumph or exaltation. There's the _Triumphlied_ but I feel that it's an exception. Also, it's a response to a contemporary event that actually happened, not an exaltation of the _idea_ of Germanness as such. Third, from what I've read of Brahms, I have got the feeling of a stoic, a realist, and a sceptic.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

If Brahms had grown up in Russia, would he have become Tchaikovsky?


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Xaltotun said:


> Second, that's the feeling that I get from his music. There's struggle, suffering, melancholy... very little triumph or exaltation.


Interesting. It's years since I heard them but from memory the final movement of the 1st symphony, or even the 4th are a bit exalting aren't they?


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## Strange Magic (Sep 14, 2015)

My own impression of Brahms overall, taking into account both youthful stresses and the late, growing realization of increasing age and declining health and vigor, is that of a man rather content with his portion in life, conscious of his mastery of his craft and of his tastes, and capable of strong feelings of well-being and even of joy. At least I find these things reflected in his music.


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## Ilarion (May 22, 2015)

hpowders said:


> Ilarion said:
> 
> 
> > Ha! Ha! Another self-deprecator!
> ...


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## Ilarion (May 22, 2015)

hpowders said:


> If Brahms had grown up in Russia, would he have become Tchaikovsky?


My colleagues in the classical music world of Moscow and St. Petersburg are fanatical about Brahms music, even moreso than I am. As to another "Chaikovskii"...Methinks it is not possible. Brahms and Chaikovskii imo are unique in their tonal language - Yes, I'm painting with broad brushstrokes but they are in a class of their own.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Ilarion said:


> hpowders said:
> 
> 
> > Yes, I catch myself sometimes in the act of self deprecation - But when I read the consistent intelligent reflection emanating from your pen I can honestly say WOW! hpowders is one smart Tc colleague whom I cannot compete with...
> ...


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## Ilarion (May 22, 2015)

hpowders said:


> Ilarion said:
> 
> 
> > Oh, you compete very, very well! But not often enough!!
> ...


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Ilarion said:


> hpowders said:
> 
> 
> > Aw shucks, hpowders...A man like me has to recharge his batteries quite often to be able to keep up with your superluminal speed...I'm the proverbial Tortoise on this forum, I'll tell ya...
> ...


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## Ilarion (May 22, 2015)

hpowders said:


> Ilarion said:
> 
> 
> > We already have a Mr. Tortoise on this forum. Get in line.
> ...


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Ilarion said:


> hpowders said:
> 
> 
> > Ummm, the gentleman from South America doesn't count for slowness - He's just a sporadic "contributor"...
> ...


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

millionrainbows said:


> Many of you here are aware of my aversion, or rather, struggle with Brahms. well, I'm happy to announce that I have solved the conundrum.
> 
> I always felt an emotional detachment in Brahms, as if he were somehow 'missing' some essential human element in his music. Previously, I wrote this off as some sort of 'classical' orientation which was purposefully creating the detached result; that may be true to an extent.
> 
> ...


One thing for sure, you are not alone any more in your lonely hearts club


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

I must say millionrainbows, this is the greatest title for a TC thread that I have ever seen!


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## Ilarion (May 22, 2015)

hpowders said:


> Ilarion said:
> 
> 
> > He's my mirror image.
> ...


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## JosefinaHW (Nov 21, 2015)

hpowders said:


> JosefinaHW said:
> 
> 
> > Actually a TC get-together with actual eye-contact and vocal inflections and body language so we actually know what somebody means to communicate would be a splendid idea!! :tiphat:
> ...


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

JosefinaHW said:


> hpowders said:
> 
> 
> > HPowders: Re/ all that happiness .... you were speaking as a member of the band---I see said the blind woman------blush.
> ...


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## Ilarion (May 22, 2015)

hpowders said:


> JosefinaHW said:
> 
> 
> > I saw it being discussed on a Community Forum thread. I think it was 14 times in 6 years. I care about it because numbers rule my life.
> ...


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Ilarion said:


> hpowders said:
> 
> 
> > Mirror image - Please explain in what sense, ok?:tiphat:
> ...


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Ilarion said:


> hpowders said:
> 
> 
> > "Numbers rule my life"...
> ...


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

hpowders said:


> I must say millionrainbows, this is the greatest title for a TC thread that I have ever seen!


Oh, it's not that great; I misspelled "Johannes." But thank you, hpowders. I've enjoyed the discussion.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

millionrainbows said:


> Oh, it's not that great; I misspelled "Johannes." But thank you, hpowders. I've enjoyed the discussion.


Don't we all :tiphat:


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## Ilarion (May 22, 2015)

hpowders said:


> Ilarion said:
> 
> 
> > In organic chemistry, we call it geometric isomerism. That's the best I can explain it.
> ...


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## Ilarion (May 22, 2015)

hpowders said:


> Ilarion said:
> 
> 
> > No. I'm a Presbyterian.
> ...


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## TwoFlutesOneTrumpet (Aug 31, 2011)

I never had problems appreciating Brahms. From the first time I heard the opening of his 1st symphony some 20 years ago, he got my attention. Many years later and countless hours spent with his music, I count him among my very favorite composers. His music is as emotionally appealing to me as the music of any other composer.


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