# The OCD thread - why are there so few perfect performances?!



## tempo (Nov 8, 2012)

Seems to me that there is no such thing as a truly ''perfect'' performance/recording.

It's worse with works that are difficult to get right and/or hard to play but 100% flawless recordings seem to be non-existent.

There's always a problem with audience coughs, slightly fluffed or imperfect notes, weird humming (e.g. from the conductor), very heavy breathing (e.g. from the soloist), strange tempo decisions made by the conductor or SOMETHING.

I have two questions for you all:

1) Does the above bother you?!
2) Are there any recordings that are, in your view, truly flawless?!


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## Ingélou (Feb 10, 2013)

I personally don't mind the odd imperfection. It anchors it to the human sphere, and to time and place.
It's analogous to the Eastern prayer rug, where knots etc are left deliberately, as there can be no perfection outside heaven. If you look at an acknowledged beauty, eg Greta Garbo, she will not be 'perfect'; too much regularity can seem lacking in character. 

I don't know of any recordings, or anything at all in this world that is flawless.


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

Ingenue said:


> I personally don't mind the odd imperfection. It anchors it to the human sphere, and to time and place.
> It's analogous to the Eastern prayer rug, where knots etc are left deliberately, as there can be no perfection outside heaven. If you look at an acknowledged beauty, eg Greta Garbo, she will not be 'perfect'; too much regularity can seem lacking in character.
> 
> I don't know of any recordings, or anything at all in this world that is flawless.


Greta Garbo ? Whippersnappers are not likely to know her.


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## ptr (Jan 22, 2013)

moody said:


> Greta Garbo ? Whippersnappers are not likely to know her.


She was great! Still gives me wet dreams! 

I'm not bothered by imperfections, I rather think that the imperfection of a live performance is what brings greatness and life to the music. Most modern recordings are over edited to make them note perfect almost to sound like a MIDI-file and thuslly miss out on that extra dimension of the imperfect human being!

I don't understand why anyone would want flawless?

/ptr


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## science (Oct 14, 2010)

I don't believe "perfect" makes any sense to talk about because there are no platonic forms, but excepting audience noise problems in live recordings (which is only rarely a problem), I find nearly all recordings or performances from about 1960 on to be pretty darned good. If DG, EMI, BIS, Nonesuch, Sony, Hyperion, Chandos, Decca or some big name like that put their name on the label, I've almost never found a real problem. Granted, there are differences in tempi or how close the recording is or whatever, but I experience those differences as differences rather than flaws. 

And of course it's not live music, so you're not going to get a really good recording in that sense - I think this makes the biggest difference on polychoral music or something like Spem in Alium, where the harmonies are really rich and the spatial dimensions just cannot be captured. To a degree that happens with anything. 

The one thing that I can't account for, though, is simple pleasure / preference. For one totally arbitrary, subjective reason or other, sometimes some particular recording does it for me and none others do. I think of Aaron Rosand's recording of Bruch's first violin concerto, which is just exquisite for me, and all others disappoint because to me, for no very good reason except that is just how I like it, the way Rosand plays it is just right. If not for Rosand's recording, in fact, I doubt I'd be a big fan of that work. But there aren't many examples like this either.


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## tempo (Nov 8, 2012)

Listen closely and you'll find fluffed brass, squeaky woodwind or coughing - or all of the above - in most performances.


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## science (Oct 14, 2010)

tempo said:


> Listen closely and you'll find fluffed brass, squeaky woodwind or coughing - or all of the above - in most performances.


What do you think of Celibidache?


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## Weston (Jul 11, 2008)

I think our more advanced recording technology has made this more of a problem. I don't remember hearing these things so much way back in the days of vinyl. All the sharp intakes of breath by the 1st violinist were masked by the record's surface noise.

I do get bothered by those little gasps right before a movement starts in a string quartet. I find it a bit too intimate. I don't want the violinist breathing in my ear (unless she is Erika Tóth of the Kodaly Quartet). I am also distracted by the clicky clacky sound of oboe keys, especially in baroque music. This too never used to be a problem. Maybe it is the current popularity of using period instruments? I don't know.


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## tempo (Nov 8, 2012)

Weston said:


> I think our more advanced recording technology has made this more of a problem. I don't remember hearing these things so much way back in the days of vinyl. All the sharp intakes of breath by the 1st violinist were masked by the record's surface noise.
> 
> I do get bothered by those little gasps right before a movement starts in a string quartet. I find it a bit too intimate. I don't want the violinist breathing in my ear (unless she is Erika Tóth of the Kodaly Quartet). I am also distracted by the clicky clacky sound of oboe keys, especially in baroque music. This too never used to be a problem. Maybe it is the current popularity of using period instruments? I don't know.


I think the causes you mention there (higher definition and period instruments) both contribute to this, as does a chamber - rather than full scale - orchestra.

If I get halfway through a movement I love and there's a slightly imperfectly executed brass note it really spoils it for me.


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## Taggart (Feb 14, 2013)

science said:


> And of course it's not live music, so you're not going to get a really good recording in that sense - I think this makes the biggest difference on polychoral music or something like Spem in Alium, where the harmonies are really rich and the spatial dimensions just cannot be captured. To a degree that happens with anything.


I think that's a good argument for a surround sound system. When we get HIP versions of polychoral works using choirs in different areas of a church (and it's usually a church) then the only way you're really going to capture the sound is a full on surround system recording.

Different area, I'm used to folk performers tapping their feet to keep time. It's not usually intrusive. The best story I remember is of the late great Tom Anderson recording the Shetland Fiddle Orchestra and finding that he kept getting somebody tapping their foot. He kept on until he realised that *he* was the one doing it.

Can't avoid the Star Trek (TNG) reference. When Data's "mother" turns up in Inheritance, one of the ways that Data spots that she is an android is that when they play together in performance her performance is identical to her rehearsal - all the tempi, all the pitches, all the intonations - and that is only possible for an artificial life form.


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## cwarchc (Apr 28, 2012)

How can each individual define perfection to their ears?
Only you can perceive what you hear?


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## deggial (Jan 20, 2013)

cwarchc said:


> How can each individual define perfection to their ears?


easily, by feeling like a pig in **** when hearing it  but there will be a bunch of people who will disagree with your definition of perfection.


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

Perfection, for humans, is the ideal and perfectly unattainable goal.

It is then only a matter of degrees as to how close to perfection something is.

Taking people out of the equation, coughs, etc. also takes live performance out of the equation. That might be a tic peculiar to you, but has always been 'part of the deal' until recording, multiple takes spliced together, and later, digital editing, came to be.

There is now, after several generations of people quite used to recordings, an expectation that conditions will be the same in live performances as they were in the recording studio, including the engineering vs. sitting in any particular venue with its individual acoustic properties, etc. How great a false expectation that is cannot be overstated.

Add that there is not an exact or one-and-only way for performers to completely 'get' what the score intends, tempi which are at best a range of 'between this speed up to / down to that speed' which are all 'legitimate' for, say, Allegro, and you are asking far too much, expecting the impossible.

It is 'perfect' when it meets all your sensory / intellectual criteria, but your perfect could be either far greater and / or less than the criteria of the performers, or other listeners.

General agreement aside, each and every one of us is on our own here.

To me, once there is 'perfection,' there is no need for another performance of the work, ever. Over and done with. I'm grateful for the impossibility of perfection, because it means there will be continued performances, different takes, and the works remain alive and well.

There will never be, in my humble estimation, a 'truly flawless' performance or recording. Some get what any might feel is 'close:' since they aren't perfect, people will try and try again.


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

science said:


> What do you think of Celibidache?


Lol, generally, 'One sort of perfection.'


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## quack (Oct 13, 2011)

Because few can agree what "perfect" is, and "too perfect" is a common criticism as well.


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

science said:


> What do you think of Celibidache?


He and Stokowski were so electrifying that their concerts left you shattered and they were an example of why live is superior to recorded. Incidentally their orchestras didn't make much in the way of mistakes.
Generally give me live performances of all music,this is when the performers catch fire--I can quote you example after example.
By the way,who cares about fluffed notes they should not distract you and if they do you are not into the performance.


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## science (Oct 14, 2010)

I mention Celibidache because his recordings are an extreme example of what we might experience as bugs in fact being features.


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## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

science said:


> I mention Celibidache because his recordings are an extreme example of what we might experience as bugs in fact being features.


Hah. I had some difficulty with that; persisted in reading it to refer to the experiences of bugs. Couldn't get from there to 'features'. A few days ago a ladybug landed on an LP I was playing, and got stuck under the cartridge... somehow that seemed relevant to this issue.


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

deggial said:


> easily, by feeling like a pig in **** when hearing it  but there will be a bunch of people who will disagree with your definition of perfection.


Reminds me of the one about, 
"How you get two oboists to agree on intonation?"
"Shoot one of them."


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

moody said:


> He and Stokowski were so electrifying that their concerts left you shattered and they were an example of why live is superior to recorded. Incidentally their orchestras didn't make much in the way of mistakes.
> Generally give me live performances of all music,this is when the performers catch fire--I can quote you example after example.
> By the way,who cares about fluffed notes they should not distract you and if they do you are not into the performance.


A mistake in one live performance goes by, passes, and is over.

On a recording, upon subsequent hearings, one develops a memory of _exactly where that mistake is_, and it becomes intrusive. Rather like Looking at Liszt and dwelling on the warts instead of the face they are on... but on a recording, I think that negative affect nearly unavoidable after several listens.


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

PetrB said:


> A mistake in one live performance goes by, passes, and is over.
> 
> On a recording, upon subsequent hearings, one develops a memory of _exactly where that mistake is_, and it becomes intrusive. Rather like Looking at Liszt and dwelling on the warts instead of the face they are on... but on a recording, I think that negative affect nearly unavoidable after several listens.


May be this is a case of a trained musician talking,I'm not sure that I notice unless really blatant.
In any case there are certain live recordings that are not replacable so one has to grit the teeth and put up with it.


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## Borodin (Apr 8, 2013)

Perfect performance? I don't know how to wrap my mind around that idea! I search performances to find single clips that I like, and I'm often puzzled by those showing a strong preference toward a whole piece. I can't say I've ever liked a whole piece. I have favorite phrases of music, gems in the midst of dirt.


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

Borodin said:


> Perfect performance? I don't know how to wrap my mind around that idea! I search performances to find single clips that I like, and I'm often puzzled by those showing a strong preference toward a whole piece. I can't say I've ever liked a whole piece. I have favorite phrases of music, gems in the midst of dirt.


I really can't imagine what to say in answer to this,so it would be wise to say nought.


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## Ingélou (Feb 10, 2013)

PetrB said:


> A mistake in one live performance goes by, passes, and is over.
> 
> On a recording, upon subsequent hearings, one develops a memory of _exactly where that mistake is_, and it becomes intrusive. Rather like Looking at Liszt and dwelling on the warts instead of the face they are on... but on a recording, I think that negative affect nearly unavoidable after several listens.


I can see that, but there's a further stage. My violin teacher sends me mp3s where he plays the piece I'm going to practise. It starts with the chuggly noise of the machine being put on. Then there's the sound of him taking a deep breath. Then his gorgeous rendition.
At first the opening noises annoy me. Then I get so used to them that I hardly notice them - or if I do, I find I've grown quite fond of them, they are so much part of the piece...
Reminds me of St Therese of Lisieux. She would get annoyed by the nun behind her clicking her rosary beads. Instead of trying to ignore the noise, she turned it in her mind into beautiful music!


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## Volve (Apr 14, 2013)

I think the flaws in a performance/recording are something that contribute to making something perfect. Music is a very human thing, and it all depends on individual taste, so the mere definition of "perfect" cannot be decided. For me, the perfect recording/performance is the one that gets to you every time you listen to it. The one that you can relate to every time you listen.


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## tempo (Nov 8, 2012)

Certain works seem to be quite problematic - I have several recordings of Mozart's Gran Partita and Beethoven's Ninth and there's almost always a fluff in the adagios of each, e.g. the execution of the brass somewhere along the way.

In terms of audience noise, Mackerras' Beethoven cycle with the SCO/SPO (particularly the 3rd movement of the Ninth) is a shocker. Coughs left, right and centre. It annoys me precisely because it's such a good cycle other than that.


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## tempo (Nov 8, 2012)

I think constant coughing is one of the most annoying things. One or two coughs is ok, but when it happens regularly it starts to get really irritating and you start wondering why the individual responsible didn't do the decent thing and leave.


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## Volve (Apr 14, 2013)

Aye, constant coughing has to be the most annoying thing there can be during music. When i went to the movie theater to watch some of the MET'S live transmissions this year, i know that wasn't exactly live opera, but i expected the other people there to be polite and respect others. Oh, was i wrong. People going in with popcorn, beers, coughing, chatting constantly, going on the phone. I was horrified. This nearly ruined my very first Parsifal.


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## tempo (Nov 8, 2012)

And of course sneezing as well! Sorry, but if you've got a cough/sneeze that you CAN'T control - you should be polite enough to leave a concert hall.


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## Volve (Apr 14, 2013)

Yup. That's basic common sense, it saddens me how many people aren't aware of this.


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## tempo (Nov 8, 2012)

Volve said:


> Yup. That's basic common sense, it saddens me how many people aren't aware of this.


Particularly if you know the concert is being broadcast and/or recorded for release. You are being inconsiderate towards even more people then.


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## tempo (Nov 8, 2012)

Why do orchestras use period brass when they know it's far harder to make such instruments sound good? Surely they should proceed with more caution there?!


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## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

tempo said:


> Why do orchestras use period brass when they know it's far harder to make such instruments sound good? Surely they should proceed with more caution there?!


Thanks; excellent bit of humor there.


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## clavichorder (May 2, 2011)

I don't know, but I have serious obsessional issues(OCD?) so this thread caught my attention...

Regarding perfect performances, its not the most important thing in my book.


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

tempo said:


> I think constant coughing is one of the most annoying things. One or two coughs is ok, but when it happens regularly it starts to get really irritating and you start wondering why the individual responsible didn't do the decent thing and leave.


They should be decent enough not to come in the first place.


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## kv466 (May 18, 2011)




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## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

"An error occurred. Please try again later." Beautiful performance while it lasted.


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## Taggart (Feb 14, 2013)

tempo said:


> Why do orchestras use period brass when they know it's far harder to make such instruments sound good? Surely they should proceed with more caution there?!


Because they want to be HIP!


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## GiulioCesare (Apr 9, 2013)

I went to a performance once while going through a pretty bad cold. I had a very sore throat and anticipating what was coming, I stocked up on mints and cough drops and honey sweets and all such stuff. 

I managed to make it through the evening without coughing noticeably loud (I did have to hrrrgrg hrrgrg to myself a couple of times), but boy, I did not enjoy that symphony. I was so concerned about not coughing that I was just not there.


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## Op.123 (Mar 25, 2013)

Lots of the recordings these days are much better than older times because of multi tracking. In classical/symphonic music or concertos sound barriers are placed between sections of the orchestra. the different sections listen to each-other via headphones and after the recording is finished they can layer the tracks and can make some small volume adjustment and things like that to the different sections.


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