# Beethoven's Ninth Rant - Fourth Movement Tempos



## RonP (Aug 31, 2012)

I saw the Baltimore Symphony perform Beethoven's Ninth Symphony last Saturday and I was pleased with the performance right up to the intro to the "Ode to Joy" by the cellos and basses (occurs about 4-5 minutes into the movement). IMO, Alsop did it way too fast. And I have a recording of Karajan playing it at the same tempo. However, I've seen videos of Bernstein playing it a bit slower which seems to me a better tempo since it allows the notes to "breathe" a bit more.

I looked at the cello and bass score yesterday and it reads 80 bpm. My bass instructor looked at the same score and played it for me. It was slower than the BSO rendition and she commented that many orchestras are now playing that part faster.

Has anyone else encountered this issue?


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## Aramis (Mar 1, 2009)

> Beethoven's Ninth Rant


Ah, the famous Rant No. 9 in F major


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## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

Aramis said:


> Ah, the famous Rant No. 9 in F major


You have mischaracterized the Rants. They are all in minor keys. The emotional 'colorings' are the significant differentiators, ranging from yellow through orange, and shades of red that in the 9th reach a frequency discernible only as black.

[I realize you know all this, _Aramis_, but posts to TC are openly accessible and so should be as accurate as we can make them.]


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## Headphone Hermit (Jan 8, 2014)

Wasn't it Beecham who claimed that audiences generally don't care so long as the orchestra start together and finish together?

Did the audience show approval or disapproval?


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## science (Oct 14, 2010)

I think I'd like it slower myself but you never know till you've heard it a variety of ways.


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

RonP said:


> issue?










...........................................


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## Couac Addict (Oct 16, 2013)

If only Ludwig's markings displayed 80bpm instead of all that Italian nonsense...then it wouldn't be a problem


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## realdealblues (Mar 3, 2010)

I've heard both quick and slow versions that are equally convincing. 

Overall, I judge Beethoven symphonies based upon the "flow" of the entire symphony. How natural that "flow" feels based on how the tempos are taken and phrased throughout the entire work, not just on individual movements. 

If a quicker tempo feels more natural based on what I heard throughout the earlier movements in the symphony then so be it. Riccardo Chailly is a controversial pick lately it seems because he's on the quicker side, but when I listen to his 9th, the overall flow, feeling, phrasing, etc that progresses from one movement to another sounds completely natural to me. So I like it.

At the same time, if a slower tempo feels more natural based on what I have heard in the preceding movements to create an overall natural flow to the work, then that works for me to. Ferenc Fricsay is a prime example of perfect flow that feels natural based on the entire work, not just a per movement basis and his 9th works for me, just as well as Chailly's 9th.

They both "feel" correct and natural to me based on the whole vision and recording of the work. So I like both, I care less about intended or specific tempos and more about the work feeling cohesive and like the movements "belong" together.


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## RonP (Aug 31, 2012)

Based on your comment and what i've read of the score, Alsop was too fast on the fourth movement compared to the rest. I guessed her second movement at about 120 bpm and the score showed 116, so it was ballpark.


Thanks for the leads on Chailly and Fricsay. I'll give them a listen.


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## SONNET CLV (May 31, 2014)

RonP said:


> I saw the Baltimore Symphony perform Beethoven's Ninth Symphony last Saturday and I was pleased with the performance right up to the intro to the "Ode to Joy" by the cellos and basses (occurs about 4-5 minutes into the movement). *IMO, Alsop did it way too fast.*


Maybe she had another engagement to get to and had to hurry?


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## RonP (Aug 31, 2012)

I'm going hear the Philadelphia Orchestra perform Beethoven's 9th at the end of the month, so I'll see if I can make any comparisons.


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## scratchgolf (Nov 15, 2013)

I also highly recommend the Fricsay, and after seeing your posts I think it may be exactly what you looking for. Although there is a source document, this symphony seems to have evolved through time with trends and repetitions taking priority over the composer's intentions. When a popular conductor like Karajan, who was criticized and praised for polishing and refining many works, starts being emulated then many conductors may follow suit. I had a very similar experience to yours in Dallas under van Zweden. I wasn't sure if I was hearing Beethoven's 9th or Karajan's 9th. 

Still, I often turned to Karajan or Bernstein for B9, choosing recording quality over more preferred tempos, as with Furtwangler and Toscanini. Mind you, I'm not claiming they are closer to the composer's intention. I know that's been done. They just have versions which feel "right" to me. In the Fricsay, I've found the best of both. I'm also anxious to hear of your experience in Philly. This is a Symphony I will be attending quite frequently in the near future.


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## RonP (Aug 31, 2012)

I found this version from the 2012 Proms. Forward to about 50:00 and you'll get an idea of the tempo I like. Whether or not it's the right tempo can be debated, but it seems a bit closer to what I understood from my instructor:


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## scratchgolf (Nov 15, 2013)

RonP said:


> I found this version from the 2012 Proms. Forward to about 50:00 and you'll get an idea of the tempo I like. Whether or not it's the right tempo can be debated, but it seems a bit closer to what I understood from my instructor:


Barenboim typically utilizes tempos I find highly enjoyable. The Proms has many great live performances on YouTube. I highly recommend Beethoven's 6th from the same season. I also find the female flutist and bassoon player quite pleasing to the eyes, which doesn't hurt the viewing experience one bit.

Also, judging from your 50:00 mark, Fricsay may in fact be your man. I own the first version at the below link. 
http://www.amazon.com/s?rh=n:163856...ords=fricsay+beethoven&ie=UTF8&qid=1402501083


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

Couac Addict said:


> If only Ludwig's markings displayed 80bpm instead of all that Italian nonsense...then it wouldn't be a problem


You would think so, but when Beethoven did get his hands on a metronome, I believe many of the tempi he wrote were untenable and clearly misleading. Perhaps someone else knows the details of his misadventures with modern technology?


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

EdwardBast said:


> You would think so, but when Beethoven did get his hands on a metronome, I believe many of the tempi he wrote were untenable and clearly misleading. Perhaps someone else knows the details of his misadventures with modern technology?


This has been investigated and, except for some apparent mis-transcriptions by his nephew (perhaps because of Ludwig's terrible handwriting) nothing can be pinned down. I'm convinced that some of his indicated orchestral tempi are fast due to his failing memory of hall resonance. In doing some experiments, I found that pieces played back in my head were always faster than any recordings I have...


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## Classicaltalk (Dec 14, 2015)

Yes I experienced a conductor who wanted it played at 110 - 120 if we could manage it. Sounded like crap to me - just get the notes out but no time for playing music. There is also a lot of literature that suggests Beethoven's metronome was not at the same tempo of modern metronomes and many suggest that Beethoven's 80 might have been actually slower. And think of the instruments in 1800 when widely available gut core metal wrap was not available until the 1830's. Pure gut string basses playing that faster?

I am of the mind much of classical music is too fast. Bernstein slowed down most symphonies as he became older. The tempo indications of Mozart, c1988: CIP t.p. (Jean-Pierre Marty) - is a thick tome that makes the argument that most of Mozart is played too fast.

Speed requires great skill and young graduates often have that skill but speed does not make for great musicality. Young musicians are like athletes and I think they often have a jock-like competitive nature. That however does not make the music better because it can be played faster. The conductor, I experienced, who wanted to play the 9th too fast was a young conductor.

Played the 35th of Mozart and the final movement presto for Bass is impossible. The section was freaking out and I said I was only playing every other note in the tough passages (the conductor took it at a break neck speed). Firstly in Mozart's time basses were tuned differently and secondly I don't think it was actually played that fast. I spoke with a retired musician from a professional symphony and I asked how did they handle that movement and the answer immediately came back remove a bunch of the passing notes. By the time of the dress the rest of the section was on side with every other note. Bass is a special case of course as the instrument in today's configuration did not exist for much of the repertoire.


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