# Conversation with my sister...



## violadude (May 2, 2011)

Alright, so, me and my sister don't see eye to eye at all when it comes to music. We're like the exact opposite of each other in that regard. But just a few minutes ago we were having a conversation about it.

So I was explaining to her some things about the music I listen to and she asked me "do you really think that much about the music you're listening to?" And I said ya and explained to her why, so then I asked her what she listens to in music.

So she said she listened to the tone of the piece, and the lyrics. So I asked her, are the lyrics necessary for you to enjoy it? And she said no I guess not but I do tend to get bored when there isn't any.

So I wondered if she would like some lieder...because most of that music is all about tone and lyrics, and some of it can be pretty uncomplicated.

So I asked her if the lyrics were in a different language but you knew what they meant beforehand, would you then like it?

So she said yes she probably would because she likes this song,





So I thought, alright then Ill give this a try. So I read the lyrics to "Gute Nacht" the first song in Schubert's Die Winteriesse song cycle, and then let her listen to it.

aannnddd she wasn't too impressed.

So I have a few questions for you all that arose in my mind from this conversation.

1). Why are we drawn to (generally) more intelligent, and more thoughtfully put together music than a lot of other people? Why don't we just listen to tone and lyrics like my sister? It can't be because we're more intelligent because my sister is quite a smart person, in fact she's probably smarter than me in a lot of other things.

2). This is something I really don't understand. To me the Schubert is so much more emotional and passionate than the song she gave me (which to me, frankly, while it was kind of pretty, it was also pretty mellow, dull and boring) and I know for a fact my sister likes emotion in her music...so what was stopping her from liking the Schubert? but allowing her to like the other song? It can't be because of complexity...instrumentation? perhaps?

3). Fans of popular music will always say that they like emotional music, but then when they listen to classical music, which is, how I hear it, the most emotional music of all in many cases, it falls short with them. Why is that? Why can't fans of only popular types of music pick up on the emotion and drama in classical music?

I ask these things, not because I expect everyone to have the same musical tastes, but because I'm curious why. I'm curious why her tastes seem paradoxical to me (liking tone and lyrics in music but not liking Schubert).


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## sospiro (Apr 3, 2010)

What a fascinating subject.

I don't think it has anything to do with intelligence (or lack of). It's a visceral reaction which you have no control over. But you may have sown a seed in your sister's consciousness & after a few days she could listen again & love the Schubert.


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## pjang23 (Oct 8, 2009)

I think it's because in a pop song, the emotional content comes primarily through the meaning of the words/lyrics, whereas in a classical piece, meaning is conveyed through sound.

Take this Schubert song for example.

The lyrics are not the single most important element, and the piano plays just as important a role as the singer. The piano creates the atmosphere of the song and imitates the babbling of a brook, which responds to the singer's pleas. The piano brings the poetry to life by expressing what the voice alone cannot express.

I think the reason she doesn't enjoy the Schubert song is simply because a different kind of listening is involved.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

violadude said:


> 1). Why are we drawn to (generally) more intelligent, and more thoughtfully put together music than a lot of other people? Why don't we just listen to tone and lyrics like my sister?


I think it's similar with listeners of any music, they will listen out for different things. It depends on individual factors. & some people want to push themselves to appreciate things more deeply, others don't want to do that, they're not interested in that very much.



> ...It can't be because we're more intelligent because my sister is quite a smart person, in fact she's probably smarter than me in a lot of other things.


I don't think it's necessarily intelligence. By today's standards, a lot of artistic creators of the past would not be seen as very intelligent, just good at what they did. Guys like Leonardo da Vinci were adept in many areas, but I don't think a lot of artists of different types could adapt themselves to so many things. So it's about developing interests, some people have a wider aptitude than others. I don't know the reason why though, I don't know if it can be boiled down to anything. Maybe "talent" which is a vague term at best.



> 2). This is something I really don't understand. To me the Schubert is so much more emotional and passionate than the song she gave me (which to me, frankly, while it was kind of pretty, it was also pretty mellow, dull and boring) and I know for a fact my sister likes emotion in her music...so what was stopping her from liking the Schubert? but allowing her to like the other song? It can't be because of complexity...instrumentation? perhaps?


Well, maybe also because the Schubert song is like 200 years old? Many people like the music of today, esp. the popular music. Some people also don't like dark or depressing music, or at least too deep. In terms of complexity, a lot of non-classical music is also quite complex, but probably not the mainstream/commercialised things. Quite a number of songwriters in the past had classical training - eg. Burt Bacharach, Dave Brubeck, Gil Evans. I think they did quite complex things, I'm sure at least some of what's coming out today from these kinds of quarters is also quite complex.



> 3). Fans of popular music will always say that they like emotional music, but then when they listen to classical music, which is, how I hear it, the most emotional music of all in many cases, it falls short with them. Why is that? Why can't fans of only popular types of music pick up on the emotion and drama in classical music?


I think that fans of popular music can and do like some classical music, esp. the vocal or dance music. Astor Piazzolla is a case in point. Many people who thought they'd hated classical music love this guy's music to the max. They even didn't know that it is classical, that he was fully classically trained - with no less than Nadia Boulanger & Alberto Ginastera - etc.



> I ask these things, not because I expect everyone to have the same musical tastes, but because I'm curious why. I'm curious why her tastes seem paradoxical to me (liking tone and lyrics in music but not liking Schubert).


I'd skip Schubert, it's basically too old, and try out some Piazzolla with her - maybe a song or a tango or two of his. If she likes that, she'll be listening to a lot of the history of classical - eg. Bachian counterpoint, many modern techniques that he absorbed, also aspects of Jazz, chamber music as well as his native tango dance music, of course. See how that goes with her if you get the chance?...


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## violadude (May 2, 2011)

Sid James said:


> I think it's similar with listeners of any music, they will listen out for different things. It depends on individual factors. & some people want to push themselves to appreciate things more deeply, others don't want to do that, they're not interested in that very much.
> 
> I don't think it's necessarily intelligence. By today's standards, a lot of artistic creators of the past would not be seen as very intelligent, just good at what they did. Guys like Leonardo da Vinci were adept in many areas, but I don't think a lot of artists of different types could adapt themselves to so many things. So it's about developing interests, some people have a wider aptitude than others. I don't know the reason why though, I don't know if it can be boiled down to anything. Maybe "talent" which is a vague term at best.
> 
> ...


Yes, I will try Piazzolla with her.

I'm wondering though, why is Schubert too old for her but not too old for you or me? Do you think it's purely just taste? Or does it have another more specific reason do you think? Maybe I'm grasping at straws here.


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## regressivetransphobe (May 16, 2011)

> I'm wondering though, why is Schubert too old for her but not too old for you or me? Do you think it's purely just taste?


Also experience. She's probably used to a much more modern, commercial idiom. Everything new to you requires some re-adjustment of your cognitive faculties, and if you don't really want to care, you won't. Not to put your sister down, but I really doubt you will get anything out of music discussion with her.


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## violadude (May 2, 2011)

regressivetransphobe said:


> Also experience. She's probably used to a much more modern, commercial idiom. Everything new to you requires some re-adjustment of your cognitive faculties, and if you don't really want to care, you won't. Not to put your sister down, but I really doubt you will get anything out of music discussion with her.


That's true. When I first started listening to Prog. Rock just recently, I was a little iffy at first because it was not what I was used to...but I stuck with it because I thought that a lot of what I was hearing sounded pretty cool in general. Now I like some of it quite a bit.

Could it have to do with certain images the music brings up with her too? I know there are some music that I'm not fond of because of that. With some rock music I really like the instrumentals that are in the song, but once the voices come in, it reminds me of a bunch of teenagers trying too hard to be cool and it kind of ruins it for me I guess.


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## regressivetransphobe (May 16, 2011)

Yes, absolutely. Music is all about association in a lot of ways.



> With some rock music I really like the instrumentals that are in the song, but once the voices come it, it reminds me of a bunch of teenagers trying too hard to be cool and it kind of ruins it for me I guess.


Try Swans.


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## violadude (May 2, 2011)

regressivetransphobe said:


> Yes, absolutely. Music is all about association in a lot of ways.
> 
> Try Swans.


I will, indeed


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

violadude said:


> Yes, I will try Piazzolla with her.


Would be interesting to see what she thinks. I'd doubt that his _Libertango_ would go down badly with her, but it is true that it's not vocal, it's instrumental. Some of his songs that are quite popular are _Chiquilin de bachin _(The Bachin Lad), _Balada para un loco _(The Ballad of a madman) & _Yo soy Maria_(I am Maria).



> ...I'm wondering though, why is Schubert too old for her but not too old for you or me? Do you think it's purely just taste? Or does it have another more specific reason do you think? Maybe I'm grasping at straws here.


I don't know, but I think what member *pjang23* wrote above, about how the pianist is also kind of a protagonist not just a neutral accompanist, may be of relevance here. Some of the finest writers of artsong until this day employ this type of concept that Schubert largely laid down, in that the piano part is just as significant as the vocal part. Maybe that sounds kind of too "full on" to some people, esp. compared to a fair amount today's mainstream pop, where the instrumentals sound to be little more than some basic chords and rhythms...


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## violadude (May 2, 2011)

regressivetransphobe said:


> Yes, absolutely. Music is all about association in a lot of ways.
> 
> Try Swans.


Just listened to "Children of God" and "I'll cry for you." I liked it a lot! Thanks for the suggestion, Regressivetransphobe!


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

She likely finds the Schubert stuffy and pretentious. Our egalitarian, consumerist-populist democratic societies breed this reaction to works that flirt with the highest levels of human achievement. The same reaction is incurred by _Remembrance of Things Past_, and _Relativity: The Special and General Theory_. All of these are obvious slaps in the face to the silly mantra of egalitarianism, and people would rather cast them aside with meaningless labels like "pretentious" rather than confront the reality of their own mediocrity and lack of worth. We could also get into the religious side of it, which teaches that there's no higher human achievement that praying and attending church picnics (as King Solomon eloquently put it, _"Vanity of vanities, all is vanity"_), but that would probably ensure the quick closure of this thread.


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## violadude (May 2, 2011)

Sid James said:


> Would be interesting to see what she thinks. I'd doubt that his _Libertango_ would go down badly with her, but it is true that it's not vocal, it's instrumental. Some of his songs that are quite popular are _Chiquilin de bachin _(The Bachin Lad), _Balada para un loco _(The Ballad of a madman) & _Yo soy Maria_(I am Maria).
> 
> I don't know, but I think what member *pjang23* wrote above, about how the pianist is also kind of a protagonist not just a neutral accompanist, may be of relevance here. Some of the finest writers of artsong until this day employ this type of concept that Schubert largely laid down, in that the piano part is just as significant as the vocal part. Maybe that sounds kind of too "full on" to some people, esp. compared to a fair amount today's mainstream pop, where the instrumentals sound to be little more than some basic chords and rhythms...


Thanks for the suggestions with Piazzolla! I'll try those out.

Hmm those are interesting comments about the piano, both from Sid and Pjang. The thing is though, the song "Gute Nacht" has a pretty simple piano part as well, which is why I picked it.






Do you think it might be the harmonies? Most mainstream songs only have I, V, IV, VI chords. Maybe the sound of diminished chords and the other harmonic progressions found in Schubert aren't something she (or other people who only listen to pop.) can relate to?


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## Curiosity (Jul 10, 2011)

It's just not catchy enough, probably. Classical lieder have very unconventional and complex harmonic characteristics by the standards of commercial music. Furthermore, most people who've been fed on a steady diet of over-the-top melodramatic sappy pop songs find even the more sentimental CM composers (like Schubert) cold and emotionless. If the emotions aren't blatantly conveyed (basically shoved down the listeners throat), they aren't there at all for the majority of people.

Unfortunately, even most intelligent individuals have very superficial taste when it comes to music. I've observed this far too frequently.


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## regressivetransphobe (May 16, 2011)

Couchie said:


> We could also get into the religious side of it,


Hmm, let's not.


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## Meaghan (Jul 31, 2010)

violadude said:


> Do you think it might be the harmonies? Most mainstream songs only have I, V, IV, VI chords. Maybe the sound of diminished chords and the other harmonic progressions found in Schubert aren't something she (or other people who only listen to pop.) can relate to?


Ha, maybe! Try some Vivaldi concertos on her. But then, those don't have words.

My brother (age 16) and I have also been trying to find musical common ground. He likes film music mainly, so at least I don't have the "no lyrics" problem to contend with when trying to find classical music for him. I make him CDs with stuff I think he might like and I'm not very good at predicting which pieces on the CDs will be the ones he always skips over and which will be the ones he ends up listening to all the time. So far, he loves Finlandia, the last movement of Sibelius 5, the last movement of Mahler 1, and bits and pieces of Rite of Spring. But whenever I go "oh, he likes stuff like _that_" and give him stuff I think is similar, I usually end up being wrong.

The point of all this being that other people's taste can be difficult to explain/predict.


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## violadude (May 2, 2011)

Meaghan said:


> Ha, maybe! Try some Vivaldi concertos on her. But then, those don't have words.
> 
> My brother (age 16) and I have also been trying to find musical common ground. He likes film music mainly, so at least I don't have the "no lyrics" problem to contend with when trying to find classical music for him. I make him CDs with stuff I think he might like and I'm not very good at predicting which pieces on the CDs will be the ones he always skips over and which will be the ones he ends up listening to all the time. So far, he loves Finlandia, the last movement of Sibelius 5, the last movement of Mahler 1, and bits and pieces of Rite of Spring. But whenever I go "oh, he likes stuff like _that_" and give him stuff I think is similar, I usually end up being wrong.
> 
> The point of all this being that other people's taste can be difficult to explain/predict.


Hey what a coincidence! My sister is 16 as well. We should both collaborate on plotting a scheme to get these dang teenage kids listening to better music. :devil:


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## Curiosity (Jul 10, 2011)

Film music is all about the "surface excitement", so to speak, which is what most people gravitate towards musically because they don't want to exert the time and effort needed to appreciate something with altogether more depth. Though if they knew how rewarding it could be they may have different feelings on the matter...


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## violadude (May 2, 2011)

Curiosity said:


> It's just not catchy enough, probably. Classical lieder have very unconventional and complex harmonic characteristics by the standards of commercial music. Furthermore, most people who've been fed on a steady diet of over-the-top melodramatic sappy pop songs find even the more sentimental CM composers (like Schubert) cold and emotionless. *If the emotions aren't blatantly conveyed (basically shoved down the listeners throat), they aren't there at all for the majority of people.*
> 
> Unfortunately, even most intelligent individuals have very superficial taste when it comes to music. I've observed this far too frequently.


That's interesting, because to me, the Schubert song I gave her IS blatant with its emotions.


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## Curiosity (Jul 10, 2011)

I would say the same, but f.e. I've shown a bunch of classical vocal compositions to my sisters and female friends and they've all had the same response. "It leaves me cold", "it's not emotional" etc... the same kind of people who go crazy for "Time to Say Goodbye" with Andrea Bocelli and Sarah Brightman. Go figure...


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## Meaghan (Jul 31, 2010)

violadude said:


> That's interesting, because to me, the Schubert song I gave her IS blatant with its emotions.


Yeah, but in German.

(Btw, you made me want to listen to Gute Nacht just by mentioning it, and I just did. And now I will again. And then I will probably listen to the rest of Winterreise and not be able to sleep.)


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## violadude (May 2, 2011)

Meaghan said:


> Yeah, but in German.
> 
> (Btw, you made me want to listen to Gute Nacht just by mentioning it, and I just did. And now I will again. And then I will probably listen to the rest of Winterreise and not be able to sleep.)


That's interesting, so you think difference in language has something to do with it? Even though I read her the translation beforehand and she knew what the song was about?


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## Curiosity (Jul 10, 2011)

You can test that theory with some John Dowland.


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## violadude (May 2, 2011)

Curiosity said:


> You can test that theory with some John Dowland.


I will do that! Beautiful piece btw!


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## Amfibius (Jul 19, 2006)

OK, I have the reverse problem. My two best friends like progressive rock and jazz. They have both told me that there is as much depth of feeling and range of emotion as there is in Classical. Both guys are very intelligent and very well educated, and both have exquisite taste in other things (food, wine, art, literature) - so we are not dealing with a couple of nincompoops. But to my ears the music sounds obvious and superficial. It is like comparing Jim Carrey to Sir Humphrey Appleby. 

I have tried for many years to understand what they were going on about but in the end, I gave up. I just don't like their music, maybe because I don't have the ears for it - and they don't like mine. I am happy to go on their word that their music speaks to them in a way that my music doesn't - just like their music does not speak to me in the way that mine does. That is fair enough, I think.


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## regressivetransphobe (May 16, 2011)

violadude said:


> Hey what a coincidence! My sister is 16 as well.


Here's your problem. Just talk to her in like five years.


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## violadude (May 2, 2011)

regressivetransphobe said:


> Here's your problem. Just talk to her in like five years.


:lol::lol::lol::lol:


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## Artemis (Dec 8, 2007)

A few somewhat disconnected thoughts:

I think possibly that _Winterreise_ might be a touch too heavy (in the dramatic sense) for someone who is completely fresh to classical music art song, even of this extremely high calibre.

I'm a believer in the expression "_you can lead to a horse to water you can't make it drink_", and this applies as much to classical music as to anything else. (No disrespect to your sister intended here; it's the way the expression goes I'm afraid).

It could be that the "way in" to classical music for some people is not via art song at all, but by sampling other classical music genres and developing their initial taste for it there, e.g. a symphony, an overture, a piano sonata, an opera aria, or whatever. Once the individual has accepted that they do like some classical music, it's then a case of building up their interest from there, but from such a first step it could take years before they might feel tackling something like a complete song cycle such as _Winterreise_.

There are hundreds of individual songs by Schubert which may be more attractive to a complete beginnner than _Winterreise_. Below is a small selection of some of the better known songs that might trigger an interest. I hope the links work, but if not it should be very easy to find others that do. I trust that you will explain that these songs comprise a combination of voice and piano in equal measure, that what's especially great about them is that they were written by a man who was exceptionally gifted not just in song-writing but in several other musical genres.

_*An Sylvia*_ - 




_*An die Musik*_ - 




_*Die Junge Nonne*_ - 




_*Im fruhling*_ - http://www.nme.com/nme-video/youtube/id/MHmzzu4FAnM/search/fischer-dieskau

_*Der Hirt auf dem Felsen*_ - 




_*Standchen*_ -


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## graaf (Dec 12, 2009)

Couchie said:


> She likely finds the Schubert stuffy and pretentious. Our egalitarian, consumerist-populist democratic societies breed this reaction to works that flirt with the highest levels of human achievement. The same reaction is incurred by _Remembrance of Things Past_, and _Relativity: The Special and General Theory_. All of these are obvious slaps in the face to the silly mantra of egalitarianism, and people would rather cast them aside with meaningless labels like "pretentious" rather than confront the reality of their own mediocrity and *lack of worth*. We could also get into the religious side of it, which teaches that there's no higher human achievement that praying and attending church picnics (as King Solomon eloquently put it, _"Vanity of vanities, all is vanity"_), but that would probably ensure the quick closure of this thread.


Excuse me? Lack of what? 
Guys, guys, guys... Some music requires attention, some doesn't. The one that requires attention (thus, effort) is more rewarding, the other one is less rewarding (yet another example of old principle that you get out of something what you put in it). All the pseudo-intellectual bulls**t that accompanies classical music way too often is real vanity.


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## HarpsichordConcerto (Jan 1, 2010)

violadude said:


> I ask these things, not because I expect everyone to have the same musical tastes, but because I'm curious why. I'm curious why her tastes seem paradoxical to me (liking tone and lyrics in music but not liking Schubert).


I don't know the complete answer to this fascinating question but from my experience through "empirical observation" with many folks that I know who enjoy classical music indicate that some aspect of their childhood tended to, not always, but tended to point them into enjoying classical music later in life. That could be as simple as having some piano lessons or growing up in a family exposed to classical music in some way. I don't know what differences between you and your sister's might be, but in my case, it was neither of those two cases, but I recall watching TV and hearing many "pretty tunes" that I noticed (this was say, during early primary school days) and these "pretty tunes" often stuck in my mind. As I grew older and bothered to investigate more about these "pretty tunes" regarding who wrote these/what these pieces were/instruments involved etc. the rest was ... HarpsichordConcerto in the making!

P.S.
Unfortunately, none of those intuitively "pretty tunes" as I recall were ever of the avant-garde farty types. In fact, it would be just as fascinating to ask if there are any non-teenage kids who might enjoy that sort of music.


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## Polednice (Sep 13, 2009)

pjang23 said:


> I think it's because in a pop song, the emotional content comes primarily through the meaning of the words/lyrics, whereas in a classical piece, meaning is conveyed through sound.


I'd disagree with that actually. I think a large amount of the emotion in a pop song comes through the sound, but the reason that people find it preferable is because the sound is _easy_. The chord progressions are simple, unimaginative, cheap - but they are tried and tested to reach right to the heart of sentimentality. Of course Schubert is incredibly emotional, but, even in his accessible music, the progression of sound is still more complex.


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## Polednice (Sep 13, 2009)

Oh and, if you want to stick with Schubert, I'd have suggested the opening, Das Wandern, from Die Schone Mullerin, would have been an easier introduction.


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## Klavierspieler (Jul 16, 2011)

You made your mistake in showing her Schubert; give her Schumann.

Just kidding. I think that different people just like different things. Just because I don't care for Brahms, you wouldn't tell me that I was missing out on the most complex and emotional music written (well, Polednice would, but _most_ of you wouldn't).


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## sospiro (Apr 3, 2010)

Have you thought about an opera aria? There are several tunes which she will probably know but may not realise they were from opera. Verdi wrote some catchy tunes 

One of the most famous


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## Vesteralen (Jul 14, 2011)

My own personal case might or might not be typical, but I needed something extramusical to get me past the speedbump that the idiom of classical music presented to me. In my case, it was the love of a particular instrument (French Horn) that got me listening to classical music in the first place, and even with that, there was a lot of resistance in my mind to overcome. The language of classical music was not only foreign to me, it was a bit off-putting. Repeated exposure to it was necessary for me to begin hearing what there was to hear in it. But, without that something else that was pushing me to keep listening to it, I may never have gotten to the point of enjoying it. If someone had just come up to me and said, "listen to this", I don't think I would have gotten it either.


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## Polednice (Sep 13, 2009)

Klavierspieler said:


> You made your mistake in showing her Schubert; give her Schumann.
> 
> Just kidding. I think that different people just like different things. Just because I don't care for Brahms, you wouldn't tell me that I was missing out on the most complex and emotional music written (well, Polednice would, but _most_ of you wouldn't).


Hahaha! I was thinking of saying just that! But then you disarmed me with your anticipatory comment... swine.


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## Vesteralen (Jul 14, 2011)

Klavierspieler said:


> You made your mistake in showing her Schubert; give her Schumann.
> 
> Just kidding. I think that different people just like different things. Just because I don't care for Brahms, you wouldn't tell me that I was missing out on the most complex and emotional music written (well, Polednice would, but _most_ of you wouldn't).


I think I might tell you that, too.


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## violadude (May 2, 2011)

HarpsichordConcerto said:


> I don't know the complete answer to this fascinating question but from my experience through "empirical observation" with many folks that I know who enjoy classical music indicate that some aspect of their childhood tended to, not always, but tended to point them into enjoying classical music later in life. That could be as simple as having some piano lessons or growing up in a family exposed to classical music in some way. I don't know what differences between you and your sister's might be, but in my case, it was neither of those two cases, but I recall watching TV and hearing many "pretty tunes" that I noticed (this was say, during early primary school days) and these "pretty tunes" often stuck in my mind. As I grew older and bothered to investigate more about these "pretty tunes" regarding who wrote these/what these pieces were/instruments involved etc. the rest was ... HarpsichordConcerto in the making!
> 
> P.S.
> Unfortunately, none of those intuitively "pretty tunes" as I recall were ever of the avant-garde farty types. In fact, it would be just as fascinating to ask if there are any non-teenage kids who might enjoy that sort of music.


That's interesting that you say that. Now that you mention it, I was born with a birth defect that made me have to spend my first 6 weeks in the hospital, and during that time my mom came and played me a cassette that had some Faure and Debussy among other things. I'm pretty sure my sister didn't get the same treatment as an infant.


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## HarpsichordConcerto (Jan 1, 2010)

violadude said:


> That's interesting that you say that. Now that you mention it, I was born with a birth defect that made me have to spend my first 6 weeks in the hospital, and during that time my mom came and played me a cassette that had some Faure and Debussy among other things. I'm pretty sure my sister didn't get the same treatment as an infant.


I see. That's very interesting. I wouldn't underestimate the possibility that might have had on you!


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## ElQ (Sep 12, 2011)

A lot of people have basically mentioned this (enjoyment of music vs. # of times listened to it):










The first graph is classical music, the second pop music.

I really think this is the most important part of why people don't get into classical music more often. I know next to nothing about music theory and I've never played an instrument; I would rate myself in the bottom 25th percentile of musical sense genetics. But I am now extremely into classical music--it is just a source of a huge amount of pleasure, way more than I ever got from non-classical music. And the way I got into it, for the most part, was trusting that listening to pieces multiple times increases how much you enjoy them and opens up this world of 100X better music.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

Artemis said:


> ...I'm a believer in the expression "_you can lead to a horse to water you can't make it drink_", and this applies as much to classical music as to anything else....


I agree with this quite a lot.

& as some above suggested, some people latch on to certain things (eg. HC said he liked the tunes on TV, Vesteralen said s/he liked the french horn). In terms of my mother's family, she had several siblings, but she was the only one of them to get into classical. She had exposure to it in school, one of her teachers played a vinyl record of Mozart's_ Eine kleine Nachtmusik _& the rest was history for my mother. Later on, she was given a present by a family member who had done some travelling & got a recording of Bartok's_ Piano Concerto #2_. My mother loved it from first listen, yet many people back in those days thought his music was just pure noise. Of course, we have an advantage over that generation in terms of attitudes now being more flexible than in previous times. If we say we're listening to Bartok, we're more likely to be accused of being "old hat," than listening to unintelligible gobbledigook. Times have changed.

Anyway, it's difficult to explain why two people from the same family/generation like different types of music. It would be interesting to do a study on this, but I think that there are many factors here which are not easy to quantify. As more experienced listeners, we also refine our tastes as we go along. For the absolute beginner, it's often a case of having an "aha" moment when something really grabs you out of the blue. Once that happens, it may well be that you're kind of hooked for life (but that moment has to happen, for some people it may not occur)...


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## HerlockSholmes (Sep 4, 2011)

I've started listening to classical music for only about 8 months or so. Before that, I considered most of it to be very repellant. Now it's the only thing I listen to. So, I think I might be able to answer this question by analyzing my older self. Let's see . . .
The first classical piece that I liked, and which drew me into classical music as a result, was the first movement of Beethoven's Moonlight Sonata. At the time, it didn't sound repelling at all. Why? Most likely because it wasn't challenging or difficult to listen to. It was the same basic homophonic music that I was always acquainted with. This is exactly why it's so popular among people who don't listen to classical.
It took a long time for me to get adjusted to other classical pieces, which sounded very strange and unfamiliar to me at first. Frankly, the same thing is happening to me _right now_ when I listen to composers like Stravinsky. I dislike his music and I find it very repelling, but I'm certain that this is only because it's currently unfamiliar to me, and it simply takes time to get used to something so different.
I'm 17 by the way, so it's not a difference of age or maturity or any of that. In my opinion, it's simply about familiarity. So to get back to the main point, Schubert probably sounds very strange and unfamiliar to your sister right now. Whether her opinion will change or not really depends on the amount of time it will take for her to get bored of the pop music she listens to.


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## graaf (Dec 12, 2009)

HerlockSholmes said:


> I've started listening to classical music for only about 8 months or so. Before that, I considered most of it to be very repellant. Now it's the only thing I listen to. So, I think I might be able to answer this question by analyzing my older self. Let's see . . .
> The first classical piece that I liked, and which drew me into classical music as a result, was the first movement of Beethoven's Moonlight Sonata. At the time, it didn't sound repelling at all. Why? Most likely because it wasn't challenging or difficult to listen to. It was the same basic homophonic music that I was always acquainted with. This is exactly why it's so popular among people who don't listen to classical.
> It took a long time for me to get adjusted to other classical pieces, which sounded very strange and unfamiliar to me at first. Frankly, the same thing is happening to me _right now_ when I listen to composers like Stravinsky. I dislike his music and I find it very repelling, but I'm certain that this is only because it's currently unfamiliar to me, and it simply takes time to get used to something so different.
> I'm 17 by the way, so it's not a difference of age or maturity or any of that. In my opinion, it's simply about familiarity. So to get back to the main point, Schubert probably sounds very strange and unfamiliar to your sister right now. Whether her opinion will change or not really depends on the amount of time it will take for her to get bored of the pop music she listens to.


Plain and simple explanation that, I think, can be applied to most of us who didn't listen to CM since we were toddlers or so (didn't get it at very early age by our parents, so didn't grow up with it), and came to CM from some other genres that didn't even require much attention, let alone getting accustomed.
BTW, I was about 16 when I started to listen to CM and can completely relate to what you're saying.


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## Artemis (Dec 8, 2007)

HerlockSholmes said:


> I've started listening to classical music for only about 8 months or so. Before that, I considered most of it to be very repellant. Now it's the only thing I listen to. So, I think I might be able to answer this question by analyzing my older self. Let's see . . .
> The first classical piece that I liked, and which drew me into classical music as a result, was the first movement of Beethoven's Moonlight Sonata. At the time, it didn't sound repelling at all. Why? Most likely because it wasn't challenging or difficult to listen to. It was the same basic homophonic music that I was always acquainted with. This is exactly why it's so popular among people who don't listen to classical.
> It took a long time for me to get adjusted to other classical pieces, which sounded very strange and unfamiliar to me at first. Frankly, the same thing is happening to me _right now_ when I listen to composers like Stravinsky. I dislike his music and I find it very repelling, but I'm certain that this is only because it's currently unfamiliar to me, and it simply takes time to get used to something so different.
> I'm 17 by the way, so it's not a difference of age or maturity or any of that. In my opinion, it's simply about familiarity. So to get back to the main point, Schubert probably sounds very strange and unfamiliar to your sister right now. Whether her opinion will change or not really depends on the amount of time it will take for her to get bored of the pop music she listens to.


 One of the best posts I've read for a long time. It makes a lot of sense. Well done.


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## Theophrastus (Aug 13, 2011)

regressivetransphobe said:


> Also experience. She's probably used to a much more modern, commercial idiom. Everything new to you requires some re-adjustment of your cognitive faculties, and if you don't really want to care, you won't. Not to put your sister down, but I really doubt you will get anything out of music discussion with her.


I think you may have nailed it. Perception is learned and it takes time. The first time looking down a microscope a lot of people only see blur, or so I gather. You have to learn how to see with it.

Edit

And having just read HerlockSholmes's post, I think that expands and explicates this nicely.

But if I may immediately turn around and contradict myself - it is also true that some 'difficult' music can be immediately appealing to children. I took an instant liking to the Rite of Spring when I heard it as a young child.... Which is partly why I object so strongly to the awful 'children's classics' discs I've heard, with classical pieces played in a supposedly kid-friendly way. It's just condescension. Condescending to children is never justified.


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## Vesteralen (Jul 14, 2011)

Another thing I can say from my own experience is - if you have any friends who are OCD with collecting tendencies, try classical music out on them. Classical music is *made* for collectors. Everything's numbered. First you have stuff like: Symphony No. 1, Symphony No. 2...then you go to Piano Concerto No. 1, Piano Concerto No. 2...Violin Sonata No. 1, Violin Sonata No. 2...and even if a composer isn't into those, he/she probably has Opus numbers of one sort or another.

(My wife gets upset that everything has a number. She always wants them to have names. So, when she asks me the name of something, instead of saying "Symphony No. 4", I just say, "Let's call it 'George'".  )


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## Polednice (Sep 13, 2009)

Vesteralen said:


> (My wife gets upset that everything has a number. She always wants them to have names. So, when she asks me the name of something, instead of saying "Symphony No. 4", I just say, "Let's call it 'George'".  )


I've spoken to quite a few people who have the strange idea that a piece of music without a name must therefore be unmemorable. I remember one person saying: "If I asked you about Brahms's Symphony No. 3 or whatever, would you even know how it goes?"


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## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

Quote Originally Posted by Couchie 
"We could also get into the religious side of it,"



regressivetransphobe said:


> Hmm, let's not.


Considering that a lot of Renaissance music is notably religious, and 'classified as classical', _Couchie_'s allusion probably needs s a lot of qualifying anyway.


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## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

Polednice said:


> I've spoken to quite a few people who have the strange idea that a piece of music without a name must therefore be unmemorable. I remember one person saying: "If I asked you about Brahms's Symphony No. 3 or whatever, would you even know how it goes?"


You need to supply names for these people. "The Incontrovertible" is good, and you can use it over and over.


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## Amfibius (Jul 19, 2006)

Polednice said:


> I've spoken to quite a few people who have the strange idea that a piece of music without a name must therefore be unmemorable. I remember one person saying: "If I asked you about Brahms's Symphony No. 3 or whatever, would you even know how it goes?"


Which are the better known Beethoven Piano Sonatas? The ones with names?  Now be honest ... if I asked you which No. the _Waldstein_ was ... would you be able to answer without looking it up?


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## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

Amfibius said:


> Which are the better known Beethoven Piano Sonatas? The ones with names?  Now be honest ... if I asked you which No. the _Waldstein_ was ... would you be able to answer without looking it up?


Yes. Beethoven is much more 'trackable' by Opus number than by, for instance, sonata number. the names are pretty much useless.


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## Polednice (Sep 13, 2009)

Amfibius said:


> Which are the better known Beethoven Piano Sonatas? The ones with names?  Now be honest ... if I asked you which No. the _Waldstein_ was ... would you be able to answer without looking it up?


Yes, I would be able to answer that question, but then it is my favourite Beethoven Sonata. 

I wasn't talking about the pieces being generally known though - what was implied by the question I cited was that, if the Waldstein was instead called Piano Sonata No. 21 and someone said: "How does Beethoven's 21st Sonata begin?" that I would be completely clueless and unable to hum it because there are just so many numbers and unspecific names that we can't make the necessary associations. I'm describing it in an awfully long-winded way, but I'm tired.


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## Ravellian (Aug 17, 2009)

Why was Curiosity banned? For saying that Schubert lieder are not of "high worth"? 

And by the way, _Winterreise_ is a very dreary and depressing song cycle, probably not the best thing to help people get hooked on classical. _Die schone Mullerin_ less so, but it might be harder for a female to appreciate considering the old-fashioned and cliche love story...

The concerto is a very fun and accessible genre I would recommend to all beginner classical listeners, see if she likes examples by Mozart, Beethoven and Rachmaninov. Also perhaps show her some works of female composers like C. Schumann, Tailleferre and Tower?


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## regressivetransphobe (May 16, 2011)

Ravellian said:


> Why was Curiosity banned? For saying that Schubert lieder are not of "high worth"?


I'm curious too, for my own sake.


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## violadude (May 2, 2011)

Ravellian said:


> Why was Curiosity banned? For saying that Schubert lieder are not of "high worth"?
> 
> And by the way, _Winterreise_ is a very dreary and depressing song cycle, probably not the best thing to help people get hooked on classical. _Die schone Mullerin_ less so, but it might be harder for a female to appreciate considering the old-fashioned and cliche love story...
> 
> The concerto is a very fun and accessible genre I would recommend to all beginner classical listeners, see if she likes examples by Mozart, Beethoven and Rachmaninov. Also perhaps show her some works of female composers like C. Schumann, Tailleferre and Tower?


My sister likes depressing stuff, so thats why I chose Wintereisse.


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## Polednice (Sep 13, 2009)

violadude said:


> My sister likes depressing stuff, so thats why I chose Wintereisse.


I find that all pop music depresses me. Even if it's in a major key; even if it's about bright, happy, world-loving things, something about the sound of it - harmonies? instruments? rhythm? - just makes me feel sad. Perhaps I just associate with some horrific repressed childhood memories.


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## kv466 (May 18, 2011)

Polednice said:


> I find that all pop music depresses me. Even if it's in a major key; even if it's about bright, happy, world-loving things, something about the sound of it - harmonies? instruments? rhythm? - just makes me feel sad. Perhaps I just associate with some horrific repressed childhood memories.


Interesting. It produces the exact opposite reaction in me for the very same reason, only not repressed.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

Polednice said:


> I find that all pop music depresses me...


Isn't that too much of a blanket statement? It's basically like saying "I find that all classical music elevates me." I use elevate in terms of making you feel happy, not like "elevator music!" Anyway, this "analysis" of what you wrote there is coming from me & I'm far from a fan of pop music, I don't like it much at all. I do listen to non-classical things but mainly those things that are not so commercial, eg. some middle of the road "mainstream," but not the huge big seller mass marketed things...


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## Polednice (Sep 13, 2009)

Sid James said:


> Isn't that too much of a blanket statement?


It is a blanket statement, but I promise you that I deliver it with honesty! I say it because I have (usually passively) heard pop music of a wide variety through friends and family, and, in every instance, it just gives me a horrible emotional sensation in my gut, like a cloud is just descending on my mood. I can't explain it - it's entirely ridiculous of my brain to respond in that way! - but there you go. It's the truth.


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## Ravellian (Aug 17, 2009)

violadude said:


> My sister likes depressing stuff, so thats why I chose Wintereisse.


Winterreise also isn't the most accessible piece in the world. The melodies aren't particularly pretty except for the first song, there's a lot of unusual harmonic/thematic material, etc. I found it difficult to listen to upon first hearing. If she likes depressing stuff, why not Tchaikovsky or Chopin? (Chopin's Ballade No. 1, Tchaikovsky's 6th symphony, etc)


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## Lenfer (Aug 15, 2011)

Classical Music has always been a minority pursuit it's the same with opera and ballet. I do not know why one enjoys one type of music over another. I am not sure that I would enjoy a world where everyone listend to classical music, the most likely scenario would be that I'd still never be able to hear music I liked on the radio.

I think your wrong to say that "*we are we drawn to (generally) more intelligent, and more thoughtfully put together music*" in my opinion any intellectual or artistic merit that a piece of music may or may not have is bestoed by the listener.

For example to some *George Orwell's* Animal Farm may mirror the *Bolshevik* rise to power in Russia and subsequent power struggles that ensued, others may think it's just a story with talking pigs. Lots people would pay good money for a *Jackson Pollock* I would not...

My first love has always been classical music but from time to time I will sing or hum some other music in the bath/shower strangley enough it tends to be mostly French or sometimes Italian.

I would like to ask a small favour *Violadude* in future would you please issue a warning before posting a link to any *Carla Bruni* related material. 

I am not a fan of Madam *Bruni * at all and that video was quite a shock to the system. I am against capital punishment but when ever I see her on the news I wish they would bring back the guillotine just for her and *Sarkozy* and maybe the royal faimly. 










*Jackson Pollock's* "No. 5, 1948" sold in 2006 for $140 million... 

Very interesting topic *Violadude* thank you indeed. :tiphat:


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