# Lineages in classical music



## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

*I'm talking of ways in which one composer passes on the baton, as if in a relay race, to other composers. It can be in terms of influence or teaching, or other things.*

Eg. Schoenberg's song cycle _Pierrot Lunaire _was, as Stravinksy called it, _the solar plexus of 20th century music_. In the immediate years following it's premieres in 1912 around Europe, a number of other works drawing on it's combination of telling a story, the surreal, high and low art, whimsy and macabre, cabaret, song with speech combined, were influenced by it. *This is Pierrot's immediate lineage in terms of direct influence *-

*Ravel* - _Trois Poemes de Stephane Mallarme _ (1913) & the later _Chansons Medecasses_ (1925-26)
*Stravinsky *- _The Soldier's Tale_ (1918)
*Walton* - _Facade_ (1923)

One can extend this to other genres, eg. works by Zemlinsky (_Lyric Symphony_), Berg (_Wozzeck_) and also Messiaen's song cycle (_Poemes pour Mi_) which all employed speech-song (_sprechstimme_) in the decades following.

& of course, after 1945, Schoenberg's seminal work still had influence on composers as diverse as Britten, Birtwistle and Maxwell-Davies (in various song-cycles especially).

*Another example is lineages in teaching *- eg. Widor taught Dupre who taught Messiaen (all big composers in France for organ). I think that actually both Widor and Dupre taught Messiaen, thus strengthening this _lineage_.

*Any of these or other types of lineages that come to mind for you?*


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## HarpsichordConcerto (Jan 1, 2010)

Interesting. I would say a fine example of "lineage" in teaching was the Bach family. JS taught his sons, and we couldn't imagine his sons could have had a better teacher. I think it was CPE Bach who said something to that effect that his father was the only music teacher he could have wished for. Then the "lineage", via JS's teachings, became influential: CPE was a very influential composer, and similarly JC Bach was extremely influential on the young Mozart and in my humble opinion, one of the finest composer of the very new galant idiom at the time who devoted himself to the new style. Fast forward a few more decades, Haydn passed the baton to young Beethoven, Hummel as their earlier large scale works were clearly Haydnesque.

Not sure if this was what you meant. Just a few thoughts.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

HarpsichordConcerto said:


> ...
> Not sure if this was what you meant. Just a few thoughts.


Yes, yours was a good example imo. I basically mean any case where knowledge is passed on. It can be in terms of teaching or influence, or working with another composer/musician (esp. long term), stuff of the sort.

Another one is, with three great conductors -

Serge Koussevitzky taught Leonard Bernstein, who taught Marin Alsop (a champion of Lenny's music, listen to her great recordings of his stuff on Naxos label).

Another one I though with some great composers of 20th century -

Zemlinsky briefly taught Schoenberg, who taught Webern, who taught K.A. Hartmann.


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## NightHawk (Nov 3, 2011)

Another one for your _Pierrot_ lineage - Lucas Foss's *13 Ways of Looking at a Blackbird (1978) for soprano and small ensemble* (poem by Wallace Stephens)



Sid James said:


> *
> Eg. Schoenberg's song cycle Pierrot Lunaire was, as Stravinksy called it, the solar plexus of 20th century music. In the immediate years following it's premieres in 1912 around Europe, a number of other works drawing on it's combination of telling a story, the surreal, high and low art, whimsy and macabre, cabaret, song with speech combined, were influenced by it. This is Pierrot's immediate lineage in terms of direct influence -
> 
> Ravel - Trois Poemes de Stephane Mallarme  (1913) & the later Chansons Medecasses (1925-26)
> ...


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

What first sprung to mind was a similar sense of thread:

Stravinsky's Petruchka, with its fundamental two major triads a tritone apart, spawns a whole vocabulary of bi-tonality and polytonality, which many a 20th century composer picked up, made unique contributions, but also a vocabulary which kept some composers happily busy and well productive for their entire career - done in one piece, which Stravinsky then moving right along to Le Sacre. - Shortly thereafter, Stravinsky's Pulcinella spawning 'neoclassical style' as we know it, once again, keeping other composers happily busy for a lifetime.

Another very clear line to me is that of Charles Ives < Elliott Carter < the later 'school of the new complexity.'

The stunning list of who's who of composers and musicians, all of whom studied under Nadia Boulanger (* = those I know of, about fifty of them.) Igor Stravinsky, too, while living in France, used to routinely bring her his finished scores for her to look over:

Douglas Allanbrook
José Antônio Rezende de Almeida Prado
Ruth Anderson
István Anhalt
*George Antheil
*Burt Bacharach -- who later studied with Darius Milhaud
*Daniel Barenboim
Leslie Bassett
Marion Bauer
John S. Beckett
*John Beckwith
*Robert Russell Bennett
*Arthur Berger
*Lennox Berkeley
Vanraj Bhatia
*İdil Biret
Diane Bish
*Easley Blackwood, Jr.
*Marc Blitzstein
Cecilia Clare Bocard
Peter Brewis
Mark Brunswick
Walter Buczynski
Donald Byrd
Oleg Caetani
William Earl Caplin
*Elliott Carter
Paul Chihara
John Chowning
Robert Cogan
Joel Cohen
David Conte
*Aaron Copland
Jean Coulthard
Noah Creshevsky
*Tan Crone
Maria Curcio
*Clifford Curzon
Gabriel Cusson
*Ingolf Dahl
Isabelle Delorme
Robert Nathaniel Dett
Liam Devlin
*David Diamond
John Woods Duke
Cecil Effinger
*Donald Erb
Julio Estrada
Yona Ettlinger
Scott Fields
*Irving Fine
*Ross Lee Finney
Arthur Frackenpohl
*Jean Françaix
*John Eliot Gardiner
Kenneth Gilbert
Egberto Gismonti
*Peggy Glanville-Hicks
*Philip Glass
Donald Grantham
Gerardo Guevara
Alexei Vasilievich Haieff
Adolphus Hailstork
Gerre Hancock
Donald Harris
*Roy Harris
Stephen Hicks
Peter Hill
H. Wiley Hitchcock
Joseph Horovitz
Mary Howe
Gordon Hughes
Susan Hurley
*Karel Husa
*Andrew Imbrie
*Grant Johannesen
Richard Johnston
*Quincy Jones
Maurice Journeau
Robert Kapilow
Vitezslava Kapralova
Harrison Kerr
Hidayat Inayat Khan
Noor Inayat Khan
Vilayat Inayat Khan
Wojciech Kilar
Jerry Kirkbride
*Ralph Kirkpatrick
Peter Paul Koprowski
Leo Kraft
Zygmunt Krauze
*Gail Kubik
John La Montaine
Philip Lasser
*Noël Lee
Denoe Leedy
*Michel Legrand
Robert D. Levin
Gilbert Levine
Anthony Lewis
*Dinu Lipatti
Normand Lockwood
Judith Malafronte
Marcelle de Manziarly
*Igor Markevitch
*Sylvia Marlowe
Roger Matton
*Nicholas Maw
Boyd McDonald
Joyce Mekeel
*Gian Carlo Menotti
Pierre Mercure
Krzysztof Meyer
Yvar Mikhashoff
Robert Moevs
Pierre Mollet
Errol Morris
*Douglas Moore
*Thea Musgrave
Zygmunt Mycielski
Emile Naoumoff
Ginette Neveu
David Ohanian
Albert Alan Owen
Thomas Pasatieri
Don Paterson
Michel Perrault
*Ástor Piazzolla
Julia Perry
*Daniel Pinkham
*Walter Piston
Marta Ptaszynska
Priaulx Rainier
Joe Raposo
Willard Rhodes
John Donald Robb
Robert Xavier Rodriguez
Bernard Rogers
Joseph Willard Roosevelt
*Carol Rosenberger
Laurence Rosenthal
Avi Schönfeld
Carl Schurtz
*Roger Sessions
*Harold Shapero
Allen Shawn
Robert Sherlaw Johnson
*Elie Siegmeister
Stanisław Skrowaczewski
William Sloane Coffin
Richard Stoker
*Soulima Stravinsky
Charles Strouse
Howard Swanson
Henryk Szeryng
Louise Talma
Nell Tangeman
*Virgil Thomson
Lester Trimble
David Tunley
*Geirr Tveitt
David Ward-Steinman
Elinor Remick Warren
*Beveridge Webster
Richard Westenburg
George Balch Wilson
Antoni Wit
Russell Woollen
Stavros Xarchakos
James Yannatos
Christopher Yavelow
Rolv Yttrehus
Francisco Zumaque

A similar list of the who's who of the second half of the 20th century were students of Messiaen, another composer who was also a brilliant teacher. From among his many students, both via the Paris Conservatoire years or private students, are:

Jean Barraqué
Easley Blackwood, Jr. 
William Bolcom 
Pierre Boulez
Quincy Jones
Marius Constant
Peter Maxwell Davies 
Alexander Goehr
Karel Goeyvaerts 
Gérard Grisey
Betsy Jolas 
Oliver Knussen
Yvonne Loriod 
Tristan Murail
Karlheinz Stockhausen
Mikis Theodorakis
Iannis Xenakis


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## Norse (May 10, 2010)

Saint-Saëns taught Fauré who taught Ravel. Though I'm not sure if this constitutes a particular 'lineage' other than a certain typically French refinement and 'coolness'.


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## tdc (Jan 17, 2011)

PetrB said:


> What first sprung to mind was a similar sense of thread:
> 
> Stravinsky's Petruchka, with its fundamental two major triads a tritone apart, spawns a whole vocabulary of bi-tonality and polytonality, which many a 20th century composer picked up, made unique contributions, but also a vocabulary which kept some composers happily busy and well productive for their entire career - done in one piece, which Stravinsky then moving right along to Le Sacre. - Shortly thereafter, Stravinsky's Pulcinella spawning 'neoclassical style' as we know it, once again, keeping other composers happily busy for a lifetime.


Really? I did not know the roots of the entire neo-classical style could be traced to this one work...as well as the two major chords a tri-tone apart. I'm just really surprised these two fundamental aspects of modern music could be nailed down to one composer like that. Surely other composers (ie - Debussy, Bartok, Ravel) may have had _some_ influence on these developments as well?


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## Jeremy Marchant (Mar 11, 2010)

Let's get back to the question.

And, before thinking of other lineages, let's pursue _Pierrot_.

It strikes me that Hans Werner Henze was especially influenced by the surreal, somewhat grotesque cabaret style that is one element of _Pierrot_. This showed up first in _Versuch über Schweine_ (_Essay on pigs_, 1968 (let's hear it for 1968!)) for voice and chamber ensemble including electric guitar, Hammond organ and plenty of percussion. Henze says the voice (which has a, for once, literally incredibly wide tessitura) "speaks, sings and recites in a Schoenbergian Sprechgesang".

This exciting work paved the way for the rather more prolix _Das langwierige Weg in der Wohnung der Natascha Ungeheuer _(_The tedious way to the home of Natascha Ungeheuer_) scored for the same soloist, piano quintet, brass group, free jazz ensemble, Hammond organ, percussion (Stomu Yamash'ta playing the wreckage of a car crash) and various voices on tape.

Both these works vary from _Pierrot _in one important way in that they are through-composed diatribes. Henze produced a rather more fully _Pierrot_-like composition in _Voices _(1973) - 22 extremely widely diverse settings of various texts for soprano, tenor and chamber orchestra. Less of the Sprechgesang here, but more of the ethos.

This music is apparently too obscure to deature either on YouTube or Spotify - so, sorry, no links.

And Peter Maxwell Davies's _Eight songs for a mad king_ (a work I regret I do not know) is surely another example of post-_Pierrot _writing.


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

tdc said:


> Really? I did not know the roots of the entire neo-classical style could be traced to this one work...as well as the two major chords a tri-tone apart. I'm just really surprised these two fundamental aspects of modern music could be nailed down to one composer like that. Surely other composers (ie - Debussy, Bartok, Ravel) may have had _some_ influence on these developments as well?


While no one works in a vacuum -- (there are both C.P.E. Bach and Haydn before the later and more 'exaggerated' Beethoven) -- there are works which so clearly put forward an also clear premise, that they can indeed be readily attributed as 'seminal.' The polychord of Petruchka is like that. Only afterwards did polytonality, certainly 'in the air' get as refined, well-defined and take off as a clear aesthetic and a 'school' of writing.

Debussy's occasionaly forays into the baroque suites format, ala les Clavecinistes Francais - such as Suite Bergamasque, comprise a tiny part of his entire output and were not his primary musical direction, nor an indicator of his style. Being a great composer, those are quite good, but they are also more an hommage / pastiche than an investigation of a new vein of writing. Ditto the Ravel "Tombeau de Couperin" - his one example, again an hommage rather than a whole new vein to investigate while that suite is nonetheless original and of high quality.

Stravinsky's Pulcinella was a re-write of Pergolesi (and as it turns out, others) which led him next to such works as Duo Concertante, the Serenede en La, that one rather baroque modeled piano sonata, Concerto in Eb Dumbarton Oaks, etc. These were more than one work which clearly defined an aesthetic, that fusion of new harmony, polyphony often, looking more to the baroque, really, than classical style forms. Pulcinella 'kicked off neoclassicism' in the overall time-line.

The others, the Debussy, the Ravel, are more 'one-offs' which really did not spur the musical world and other composers in new directions. [Prokofiev is a perfect example of another who 'dabbled in' but did not 'define' the style. The 'classical' symphony, lovely thing that it is, was a lark and a 'one-off.' His Cinderella Ballet, all gavottes, etc. was an 'atonement' of behavior after a chiding the musical police bureaucrats of the Soviet under Stalin -- Sergei was 'humbly towing the line.' Prokovief's Sonata for piano and flute is his one and only excursion into pandiatonicism, and again, he was not the innovator.]

It is not always the 'very first hint' which marks these things from the historic perspective, but the first which clearly defines, and that work, usually followed by others by the same composer which are further development of the style.


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## tdc (Jan 17, 2011)

^ Interesting lineages described there in the evolution of the neo-classical style of composition. I find it ironic that in ways Stravinsky is credited as being so innovative, yet virtually everything he did was already done before him. In certain ways I don't see him as so far removed from J.S. Bach - someone who as opposed to creating purely novel works tended to enhance and tie the loose strands together. Yet in other ways he _was_ very different - for example his chameleon-like ability to change. Stravinsky, like all great composers I think did know how to "steal" musically (and he more or less admitted this) perhaps his greatest genius may have been knowing what musical "bandwagon" to jump on at the right time.


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## Huilunsoittaja (Apr 6, 2010)

Musicians Lineages are really cool too. I have one for flute. 

I wrote up this small one a while back, doesn't have nearly as many flutists are there are or have been, but a few. The Numbers indicate generation.

FRENCH FLUTE TREE

1. (Master) Claude-Paul Taffanel___ Philippe Gaubert___ Henry Altès..... Heads of the French Flute School!!

2. Marcel Moyse___Georges Barrère, who went to AMERICA

3. Jean-Pierre Rampal___Trevor Wye (Eng.)

4. Michel Debost, now in AMERICA__William Bennett (Eng.)__James Galway (Eng.)__Emmanuel Pahud (Swi.)



AMERICAN FLUTE TREE (still related to French)


1. Georges Barrère (French)

2. William Kincaid, First Major American-Born Flutist/Teacher (Curtis)

3. Julius Baker(Curtis and Juliard)___WENT SEPARATE WAYS___Joseph Mariano (Eastman)

4. Jeanne Baxtresser (Carnegie Mellon)_____________________Bonita Boyd (Eastman)


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## Roberto (Jul 17, 2010)

One lineage that I find intriguing is: - Wagner - Late Romanticism - Bernard Herrmann - lots of Hollywood film music, though whether there are any direct teacher-pupil relationships in that line I'm not sure


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

tdc said:


> ^ Interesting lineages described there in the evolution of the neo-classical style of composition. I find it ironic that in ways Stravinsky is credited as being so innovative, yet virtually everything he did was already done before him. In certain ways I don't see him as so far removed from J.S. Bach - someone who as opposed to creating purely novel works tended to enhance and tie the loose strands together. Yet in other ways he _was_ very different - for example his chameleon-like ability to change. Stravinsky, like all great composers I think did know how to "steal" musically (and he more or less admitted this) perhaps his greatest genius may have been knowing what musical "bandwagon" to jump on at the right time.


He is often referred to as holding a position similar to Bach, i.e. summarizing the two hundred years of music which preceded his time - unlike Bach, he was hugely influential. I would not say he 'hopped on' any particular bandwagon as much as created it, and that, well it is anyone's guess if his personal hunches and interests took him in a musical direction which happened to be timed to take root in the general ethos of his own time. Some people seem to have their intuition on the pulse of their own times, without being a PR guy who senses 'where the market is.' I believe he was genuinely following his own intellectual interests. Pulcinella was the next Diaghilev commissioned ballet after Le Sacre. It is fairly certain Diaghilev expected something more in the line of stylish orchestrations. Stravinsky said he started composing by writing directly on the printed scores he was given, approaching it 'as if I were revising one of my own works.' -- it led him someplace. Another huge and tantalizing 'what if' is raised by the question 'what would "it" have been next' if Stravinsky had not been given that specific commission involving that music....


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## science (Oct 14, 2010)

Lineages in performers/teachers are interesting too. I haven't memorized any, but an example gleaned from wikipedia:

*Joshua Bell* studied under
Josef Gingold who studied under
*Eugene Ysaye* who studied under
*Henri Vieuxtemps* and *Henryk Wieniawski*;

Vieuxtemps studied under 
Charles Auguste de Bériot, who studied under 
Tiby, who was a student of 
Pugnani, who was a student of
*Tartini* who was the first person known to own a Stradivarius violin, and was supposedly inspired by 
*Veracini*.

There it ends, but that's not bad at all.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

Norse said:


> Saint-Saëns taught Fauré who taught Ravel. Though I'm not sure if this constitutes a particular 'lineage' other than a certain typically French refinement and 'coolness'.


Saint-Saens also taught Varese, who didn't like him much, so he moved on to Busoni. Busoni was also a big name teacher of his day, apart from Varese he taught many musicians, incl. Kurt Weill and Stepan Wolpe. Busoni was a progressive teacher, and a major pianist as well.



tdc said:


> ...Stravinsky, like all great composers I think did know how to "steal" musically (and he more or less admitted this) perhaps his greatest genius may have been knowing what musical "bandwagon" to jump on at the right time.


Yeah, but Stravinsky's innovations in rhythm and I think pulse (them both being related?) where really important developments (just as important as Schoenberg's developments with _atonality_, etc.). These kinds of things in the earlier three ballets - esp. the Rite - found their way into his later works, from neo-classical to serial. Whatever he did, his music has an individual stamp. But I don't want to linger too much on this.

Re neo-classicism, it had a precursor in the 19th century. Mendelssohn, bringing back to the public eye J.S. Bach's choral music, and also incorporating his techniques into his own music. Then later, guys like Bizet, Saint-Saens, Gounod, Grieg, Dvorak, Tchaikovsky and others composing works that could be described as prototype neo-classical.



Roberto said:


> One lineage that I find intriguing is: - Wagner - Late Romanticism - Bernard Herrmann - lots of Hollywood film music, though whether there are any direct teacher-pupil relationships in that line I'm not sure


Yes, I do hear things like that in Herrmann's music - esp. Mahler but also Berg. Wagner not directly, but so many composers after him where _touched_ by him, it must be said.


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## Roberto (Jul 17, 2010)

Sid James said:


> Yes, I do hear things like that in Herrmann's music - esp. Mahler but also Berg. Wagner not directly, but so many composers after him where _touched_ by him, it must be said.


Try listening to some of the famous bits of Tristan and then to 'Vertigo' - seems to me unmistakeable in places, and also brilliant. Yes Mahler too of course


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## StevenOBrien (Jun 27, 2011)

PetrB said:


> What first sprung to mind was a similar sense of thread:
> 
> Stravinsky's Petruchka, with its fundamental two major triads a tritone apart, spawns a whole vocabulary of bi-tonality and polytonality, which many a 20th century composer picked up, made unique contributions, but also a vocabulary which kept some composers happily busy and well productive for their entire career - done in one piece, which Stravinsky then moving right along to Le Sacre. - Shortly thereafter, Stravinsky's Pulcinella spawning 'neoclassical style' as we know it, once again, keeping other composers happily busy for a lifetime.
> 
> ...


And Nadia Boulanger was taught by Faure...

Boulanger > Faure > Saint-Saens > Liszt > Czerny > Hummel (also Beethoven, who was taught by Haydn) > Mozart > J.C. Bach > J.S. Bach


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