# What has Beethoven said about the Mozart Piano Sonatas?



## clavichorder (May 2, 2011)

I'm curious if anyone knows anything about what Beethoven's personal relationship was with the Mozart Piano sonatas. Any quotes or other type of sources you know of? Bonus points if you have one about a specific Mozart piano sonata.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Beethoven was obviously a huge fan of Mozart, but I've never seen anything he said about Mozart's piano sonatas. Nor Haydn's either.


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## clavichorder (May 2, 2011)

I'm just curious, because I know he admired Clementi's sonatas. I wonder who inspired his sonatas the most. I would be surprised if Mozart's weren't a big inspiration, even though I find them to be perhaps the most different in their piano sonata writing.

I'm also curious to know if there are any instances of him having publicly performed Mozart sonatas.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

I can hear CPE Bach's influence in some of the early sonatas, but not so much Mozart's or even Haydn's. I've read that Clementi was an influence, but don't know about that. Curious about other opinions.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Not sure about the sonatas. But I know Beethoven was the soloist at a Mozart memorial concert. He played the concerto K466. Wish there had been a recording device invented!


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

DavidA said:


> Not sure about the sonatas. But I know Beethoven was the soloist at a Mozart memorial concert. He played the concerto K466. Wish there had been a recording device invented!


Beethoven loved the K466. He wrote the cadenzas that are still the most often used.


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## HaydnBearstheClock (Jul 6, 2013)

KenOC said:


> Beethoven loved the K466. He wrote the cadenzas that are still the most often used.


Actually, I think Beethoven was quite influenced by Haydn's later sonatas, 59-62. Beethoven also dedicated a set of sonatas to Haydn. I can't provide information on his opinions on Mozart's sonatas, though.


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## Winterreisender (Jul 13, 2013)

I don't know what Beethoven said about the Mozart sonatas, but I think Beethoven's Pathetique Sonata bears some resemblance to Mozart's C Minor (K 457) Sonata.

paritcularly at 12:04...


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## quack (Oct 13, 2011)

Anton Felix Schindler writes in Beethoven's biography:



> He had nothing by Haydn or Cherubini; of Mozart's music he had a part of the score of Don Giovanni and many sonatas. Almost all of Clementi's sonatas were at hand. He had the greatest admiration for these sonatas, considering them the most beautiful, the most pianistic of works, both for their lovely, pleasing, original melodies and for their consistent, easily followed form of each movement. Beethoven had but little liking for Mozart's piano music, and the musical education of his beloved nephew was confined for many years to the playing of Clementi's sonatas.


It's interesting to hear Beethoven played K466. With the gradual development of the piano in that era I would think that keyboard works were likely to go "out of date" more quickly than violin music for instance. Were his sonatas the betamax of the romantic era.


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## starry (Jun 2, 2009)

Isn't Schindler often accused of making up things?  That paragraph itself sounds a contradiction, it says Beethoven had many of his sonatas and then says Beethoven had little liking for them.


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## Dustin (Mar 30, 2012)

Winterreisender said:


> I don't know what Beethoven said about the Mozart sonatas, but I think Beethoven's Pathetique Sonata bears some resemblance to Mozart's C Minor (K 457) Sonata.
> 
> paritcularly at 12:04...


I agree! First time I heard this sonata by Mozart, I was shocked to think how similar it is to a sliver of Beethoven's Pathetique slow movement. I just looked it up and on the Mitsuko Uchida version I have it's from 3:20 to 3:29 of the second movement of Mozart's 14th Piano Sonata that Beethoven seems to have ripped almost note for note to form the first 5 or 10 seconds of his ultra-famous Pathetique 2nd movement. I don't fault him for it though, seeing as how much other incredible music he composed.


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## ericdxx (Jul 7, 2013)

starry said:


> Isn't Schindler often accused of making up things?  That paragraph itself sounds a contradiction, it says Beethoven had many of his sonatas and then says Beethoven had little liking for them.


I'm baffled
This is a direct quote from Beethoven "I like them but they're not bipolar enough for me"


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## Duunlap (Oct 10, 2013)

Where can I find information in that?


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

starry said:


> Isn't Schindler often accused of making up things?  That paragraph itself sounds a contradiction, it says Beethoven had many of his sonatas and then says Beethoven had little liking for them.


Schindler turns out to be an "unreliable" source on Beethoven. In fact, he forged whole pages in the conversation books and seems to have invented many things in his biography. Beethoven biographies in the second half of the 20th century are exceedingly cautious in using anything he wrote (Thayer accepted it all uncritically back in the old days).

A pity, since he seemed such a nice guy in "Immortal Beloved."


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## Minona (Mar 25, 2013)

It's funny you should write this. I don't have any reference, but I did read that Beethoven wasn't that impressed with most of Mozart's sonatas and regarded Clementi as more interesting. But Beethoven adored Mozart's piano concerti, and actually I think Mozart had the edge on all composers in this form. I do prefer Beethoven's piano sonatas to Mozart's, not sure about Clementi but I've been meaning to have a listen for years.


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

quack said:


> It's interesting to hear Beethoven played K466.


He did not just play it once, he played it a number of times, wrote cadenzas for it (still in use) and was near-obsessed with it. Of course, whether he was conscious of it or not, there is the seminal work which more than points to romanticism (a work which was a major milestone when it was first performed, the middle movement titled "Romanza").


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## IBMchicago (May 16, 2012)

quack said:


> Anton Felix Schindler writes in Beethoven's biography:
> 
> _He had nothing by Haydn or Cherubini; of Mozart's music he had a part of the score of Don Giovanni and many sonatas. Almost all of Clementi's sonatas were at hand. He had the greatest admiration for these sonatas, considering them the most beautiful, the most pianistic of works, both for their lovely, pleasing, original melodies and for their consistent, easily followed form of each movement. Beethoven had but little liking for Mozart's piano music, and the musical education of his beloved nephew was confined for many years to the playing of Clementi's sonatas._


All Clementi and no Mozart? Well, that explains why his nephew hated practicing piano and tried to end his own life.


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## trazom (Apr 13, 2009)

Is there any actual evidence that Beethoven was 'less than impressed' with Mozart's piano music than the word of notoriously unstable Schindler? I know he borrowed from the c-minor fantasy and piano sonata in the same key.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

trazom said:


> Is there any actual evidence that Beethoven was 'less than impressed' with Mozart's piano music than the word of notoriously unstable Schindler? I know he borrowed from the c-minor fantasy and piano sonata in the same key.


Aside from Schindler...well, enough said. Beethoven certainly admired Mozart's piano concertos. I've never seen a reference of anything he said about the piano music in general. But there may have been an affinity, since both were considered the greatest improvisers of their times.

Beethoven did refer to Mozart's playing at one point, calling it "choppy." I'm not sure where he might have heard Mozart play.


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## HaydnBearstheClock (Jul 6, 2013)

I personally don't think it would detract from Mozart's sonatas if Beethoven thought of them less. Beethoven's taste was his own, as are your own. Beethoven has claimed to 'dislike' Haydn's music, but it doesn't mean I have to adopt his opinion. Sure, he was a great musician, but each great composer had their own way of being excellent. Haydn's and Beethoven's were just different ways of making excellent music.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

HaydnBearstheClock said:


> Beethoven has claimed to 'dislike' Haydn's music, but it doesn't mean I have to adopt his opinion.


Again, the only criticism of Haydn by Beethoven that I know of was of Haydn the teacher, not Haydn the composer. He also got quite steamed when Haydn suggested that he not publish his Op. 1 #3 C-minor piano trio. But Haydn's music?

Here's a page on "Beethoven the Critic" that collects most of his recorded comments on other composers. Beware -- some Schindler stuff is in there.

https://sites.google.com/site/kenocstuff/beethoven-s-words/8-beethoven-the-critic


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## HaydnBearstheClock (Jul 6, 2013)

KenOC said:


> Again, the only criticism of Haydn by Beethoven that I know of was of Haydn the teacher, not Haydn the composer. He also got quite steamed when Haydn suggested that he not publish his Op. 1 #3 C-minor piano trio. But Haydn's music?
> 
> Here's a page on "Beethoven the Critic" that collects most of his recorded comments on other composers. Beware -- some Schindler stuff is in there.
> 
> https://sites.google.com/site/kenocstuff/beethoven-s-words/8-beethoven-the-critic


Was Haydn still alive when Beethoven called Cherubini his greatest contemporary?


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

HaydnBearstheClock said:


> Was Haydn still alive when Beethoven called Cherubini his greatest contemporary?


I don't have a date on that quote, but all his quotes about Cherubini that I know of and that are dated (and they were all positive) were from his later life, well after Haydn's death. I don't think Beethoven would have considered Haydn a "contemporary" after about 1802, even though Haydn lived for several years after that.


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## IBMchicago (May 16, 2012)

I once read that Beethoven was just bitter over Haydn's criticism of his early piano trios and later asserted that he had learned nothing from his teacher (which seems untrue given that Haydn is definitely there in some of Beethoven's string quartets and symphonies). Regarding Mozart, I'm not familiar with any exact quotes Beethoven had on the sonatas (other than the dubious one provided by Schindler). His 3rd piano concerto is very obviously inspired by Mozart 24th (a piece that Beethoven revered). I've also heard that Beethoven disliked Cosi for its seeming lack of moral content.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

IBMchicago said:


> I once read that Beethoven was just bitter over Haydn's criticism of his early piano trios and later asserted that he had learned nothing from his teacher (which seems untrue given that Haydn is definitely there in some of Beethoven's string quartets and symphonies).


There are differing stories about what Haydn said of Beethoven's trio (Op. 1 #3). Most claim that he advised B not to publish it, as it was too "advanced" for the audience. But it's hard to see how that could have POd Beethoven so much. Re "learning nothing from Haydn," I'd guess he was referring specifically to Haydn's teaching (which is said to have been rather hit-and-miss).

In any event, B ordered all of Haydn's published clavier works from Hartel in 1809 -- hardly a sign of disdain. And he had a picture of Haydn's birthplace hung prominently in his apartment in later years. "See, my dear Hummel, the birthplace of Haydn. I received it as a gift today, and it gives me great pleasure. A mean peasant hut, in which so great a man was born!"


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## HaydnBearstheClock (Jul 6, 2013)

Personally, Haydn saying something like Beethoven's composition being too advanced seems a bit strange to me, since Haydn himself often broke conventional rules. Definitely a strange anecdote, I wonder what 'really' happened there. Was Haydn afraid that the quality of Beethoven's trio would 'outshine' his, or was he really concerned about Beethoven's success as a young musician? There was also an anecdote where Haydn demanded Beethoven's patron to pay him more, since his salary was insufficient. Definitely a mystery.


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## IBMchicago (May 16, 2012)

I think Haydn considered B's work too advanced for the public's "long" ears (borrowing the term from Leo Mo), and was probably providing words of wisdom for a young student eager to make a name for himself. It doesn't seem that Haydn was one to feel insecure about being outdone by a younger composer. He easily acknowledged Mozart's musical genius, and would likely do the same for Beethoven.

I'm not familiar with the patron story --was haydn requesting that the patron pay Haydn more, or Beethoven more? If the former, then it's not unusual for older employees to want equal-to-higher pay than younger employees and happens all the time today. If the latter, well, then that's yet another of numerous examples of Haydn's kindness and generosity.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

IBMchicago said:


> I think Haydn considered B's work too advanced for the public's "long" ears (borrowing the term from Leo Mo), and was probably providing words of wisdom for a young student eager to make a name for himself. It doesn't seem that Haydn was one to feel insecure about being outdone by a younger composer. He easily acknowledged Mozart's musical genius, and would likely do the same for Beethoven.


Two passages, possibly relevant, from "Beethoven, A Character Study" (George Alexander Fischer, 1905):

"Haydn was then at the height of his fame, courted and admired by all, and his patience was sorely tried by the insolence of his fiery young pupil. He nicknamed Beethoven the Grand Mogul, and did not have much good to say of him to others. The pittance which he received for these lessons was no inducement to him, as he was in receipt of an income much beyond his requirements. The time given up to these lessons could have been better employed in composing."

And "When Haydn returned from London and heard these Trios, the master criticised one of them and advised him not to publish it. Beethoven thought this particular one the best of the three, and others concur with him in this opinion. Shortly after, he published his opus 2, consisting of three sonatas dedicated to Haydn, besides variations and smaller pieces."

However, I believe the dedication of the Op. 2 sonatas was simply "To Joseph Haydn," without the flowery praise then common in such dedications, especially to teachers. In 1795 Vienna, this may well have been equivalent to a slap in the face.


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## HaydnBearstheClock (Jul 6, 2013)

IBMchicago said:


> I think Haydn considered B's work too advanced for the public's "long" ears (borrowing the term from Leo Mo), and was probably providing words of wisdom for a young student eager to make a name for himself. It doesn't seem that Haydn was one to feel insecure about being outdone by a younger composer. He easily acknowledged Mozart's musical genius, and would likely do the same for Beethoven.
> 
> I'm not familiar with the patron story --was haydn requesting that the patron pay Haydn more, or Beethoven more? If the former, then it's not unusual for older employees to want equal-to-higher pay than younger employees and happens all the time today. If the latter, well, then that's yet another of numerous examples of Haydn's kindness and generosity.


From what I've read, it was Haydn requesting more pay for Beethoven. KenOC, the source you were examining seems to be highly biased against Haydn in light of Haydn's letter to Beethoven's patron, in which he wrote that Beethoven is soon to be the next greatest musician in Europe and that he deserves more pay. Haydn also sent him some compositions which Beethoven composed, but apparently the patron didn't agree to raise the pay, saying that he'd already seen these compositions before.

Which sources can be trusted? It seems that much manipulation has been done here, either to benefit Haydn's or Beethoven's perspectives.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

HaydnBearstheClock said:


> From what I've read, it was Haydn requesting more pay for Beethoven. KenOC, the source you were examining seems to be highly biased against Haydn in light of Haydn's letter to Beethoven's patron, in which he wrote that Beethoven is soon to be the next greatest musician in Europe and that he deserves more pay. Haydn also sent him some compositions which Beethoven composed, but apparently the patron didn't agree to raise the pay, saying that he'd already seen these compositions before.


The story you refer to concerns a 1793 letter sent to the Elector Maximilian Franz back in Bonn, who was then supplying an allowance to Beethoven to allow him to study with Haydn in Vienna. To support the continuance of this allowance, Haydn sent the Elector several of B's works, and his letter said "...Beethoven will in time become one of the greatest music artists in Europe, and I will be proud to call myself his teacher."

The story had a bad ending that didn't reflect well on Beethoven. The Elector wrote back, "...this music, with the exception of the fugue, was composed and performed here in Bonn before he departed on his second journey to Vienna...I very much doubt that he has made any important progress in composition and in the development of his music taste during his present stay, and I fear that, as in the case of his first journey to Vienna, he will bring back nothing but debts."

This is from Cooper, who argues that the Elector must have been, on the whole, mistaken. The allowance (50 florins each quarter) was continued, at least for a while. Beethoven also received another 50 florins a quarter that the Elector had ordered be sent to him rather than to his father, who was incapacitated by alcoholism. I assume, though, that Beethoven had to provide for his mother and brothers out of this.

Added: I've never seen it addressed, but if Haydn believed the Elector's return letter, he might have been very unhappy with Beethoven for making him look more like an inattentive fool than an effective teacher.


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## BillT (Nov 3, 2013)

Winterreisender said:


> I don't know what Beethoven said about the Mozart sonatas, but I think Beethoven's Pathetique Sonata bears some resemblance to Mozart's C Minor (K 457) Sonata.
> 
> paritcularly at 12:04...


This is very nice; I actually liked it even though it was Mozart. I am either getting older, or better.

- Bill


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## beetzart (Dec 30, 2009)

Perhaps we don't realise how important Clementi is in the progress of music, and with regards to his influence on Beethoven.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

beetzart said:


> Perhaps we don't realise how important Clementi is in the progress of music, and with regards to his influence on Beethoven.


Beethoven: "Whoever studies Clementi thoroughly has simultaneously also learned Mozart and other authors; inversely, however, this is not the case." This is reported by Schindler, so take it for whatever it's worth.


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