# One Ring To Rule Them All



## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

I have noticed that there are a few of us who seem to have this strange compulsion to seek out the definitive version of Wagner's Ring. My problem is this. What happens if and when we find it? Will it make all our previous acquisitions redundant? Will we need to listen to them again? Will we _*want *_to listen to them again? I now wonder what it is that I am actually looking for. I have many Ring Cycles some of which I have listened to more than once, some of which I have yet to listen to. Perhaps the definitive Ring is there but I actually now doubt that. I don't think it exists except in my mind.

What got me thinking was this. I was listening to the First Act of the 1949 Parsifal conducted by Moralt and it occurred to me that although I was enjoying the excellent singing there were many problems with the performance. The orchestra was extremely recessed, the chorus sounded thin, the balance was weird. But more importantly these things didn't bother me because I wasn't actually listening to the performance, I was listening to Wagner. In my mind's ear I was listening to what Wagner was trying to get across and not what this particular recording was telling me.

Now I kind of put this down to familiarity with Parsifal, and indeed all of Wagner's operas. In my listening lifetime of forty odd years I have probably listened to these operas more than anyone in Wagner's lifetime ever did. At the touch of a button I can have another Ring Cycle delivered to my doorstep or instantly downloaded for my instant gratification. Is this necessarily a good thing? I don't really know.

I suppose what I'm really asking is this. Why do I need another Ring Cycle when deep down I know that it is not going to give me any more pleasure than the first time I ever listened to this stupendous musical creation. I have heard many great Wotans, Siegfrieds, Hagens, Brunnhildes, et al. Admittedly rarely all in the same performance, but does that really matter?

Does anyone feel the same or am I missing something?

I know, so many questions but I am interested in what others think about the pursuit of the probably unattainable.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

The Ring is like Shakespeare. John Gielgud (sp) would not give the same interpretation as Ian McKellan. Who is to say which is better. I can tell you which one I hated: The god awful American Ring set in Appalachia. A travesty!! Other than that, there are many great Rings. Even an awful production with Flagstad and Melchior would be fabulous. Direction, staging, singers. All important parts of the recipe. It is why we keep coming back to it.


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

Seattleoperafan said:


> The Ring is like Shakespeare. John Gielgud (sp) would not give the same interpretation as Ian McKellan. Who is to say which is better. I can tell you which one I hated: The god awful American Ring set in Appalachia. A travesty!! Other than that, there are many great Rings. Even an awful production with Flagstad and Melchior would be fabulous. Direction, staging, singers. All important parts of the recipe. It is why we keep coming back to it.


I know why I keep coming back to it. I'm just not sure whether or not I need to come back to yet another interpretation of it when I have so many others, a lot of which are extremely satisfying.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

If you suspect you have enough versions and you still have enough money to ask whether you should buy the next one, pick up a copy of the Solti and give it to some enthusiastic youngster who has yet to discover its wonders. Don't go to your grave without having created at least one more Wagnerite.


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## Diminuendo (May 5, 2015)

Sorry, couldn't help myself  One can only wish Lee had read the whole book.


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

Woodduck said:


> If you suspect you have enough versions and you still have enough money to ask whether you should buy the next one, pick up a copy of the Solti and give it to some enthusiastic youngster who has yet to discover its wonders. Don't go to your grave without having created at least one more Wagnerite.


That's probably the one version I wouldn't give away. Might unload the Sawallisch though!


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## DarkAngel (Aug 11, 2010)

Barbebleu said:


> I suppose what I'm really asking is this.* Why do I need another Ring Cycle when deep down I know that it is not going to give me any more pleasure than the first time I ever listened to this stupendous musical creation*. I have heard many great Wotans, Siegfrieds, Hagens, Brunnhildes, et al. Admittedly rarely all in the same performance, but does that really matter?
> 
> Does anyone feel the same or am I missing something?
> 
> I know, so many questions but I am interested in what others think about the pursuit of the probably unattainable.


I collect many wagner performances not because I seek the ultimate version, no it is the process of hearing them all and learning something new from each one whether is was bad or godlike, you change and evolve your appreciation and understanding from all these experiences. Soon you notice the tiny details that before meant nothing but with experience now have an entirely more enjoyable and deeper meaning to you.....all the great singers and conductors in various combinations all provide an endless wealth of new perspectives, this is what gives me great pleasure.......

For the same reason I am here now at the forum, to learn other perspectives so I can enjoy the music more with others informed views and comments


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

DarkAngel said:


> I collect many wagner performances not because I seek the ultimate version, no it is the process of hearing them all and learning something new from each one whether is was bad or godlike, you change and evolve your appreciation and understanding from all these experiences. Soon you notice the tiny details that before meant nothing but with experience now have an entirely more enjoyable and deeper meaning to you.....all the great singers and conductors in various combinations all provide an endless wealth of new perspectives, this is what gives me great pleasure.......
> 
> For the same reason I am here now at the forum, to learn other perspectives so I can enjoy the music more with others informed views and comments


I don't really disagree with you but when I only had Solti (on vinyl) I listened to it many, many times and on each listening I discovered something new and wondrous. When I acquired my next cycle, also vinyl, it got the same treatment and the same revelations. Now I'm not sure whether it was the new interpretation that gave me more insight or the repeated listening to the same work. So my question is still - will yet another Ring reveal more or should I just listen more intently to the work itself to gain that understanding and reveal more detail. I listened to the Furtwangler La Scala ring again a couple of years ago when I got a digital copy. I hadn't listened to it for probably about fifteen years prior to that and I thoroughly enjoyed hearing it again. I was aware of things that I hadn't noticed before, or if I had, I hadn't remembered them, but again was this Furtwangler or familiarity with the work?


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## DarkAngel (Aug 11, 2010)

Barbie I still think you will learn more from hearing a variety of versions vs even the greatest one ever recorded many times......

It has to do with the way all humans learn things and gain insight, by experimentation and active exploration. We have to hear lesser works and mistakes so we know what is great and beautiful, the process of discovering what is good gives us understanding and insight so we can appreciate the artistry and skill when it all sounds right.........we enjoy the journey

That said I think you have a large enough sample base in your current collection 
(we all have our favorites we enjoy)


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## Sieglinde (Oct 25, 2009)

I collect Rings as much as possible, and so far the biggest problem is that in the last few decades, where we have video versions of, it's really hard to find even a decent Siegfried. Jerusalem does an okay job but doesn't have the raw power of the old legends, and most other Siegfrieds are either not fit for Wagner at all or have big but ugly voices and they shout instead of sing. The closest thing to perfection I have seen so far was Christian Franz - even though he isn't a Lorenz or Windgassen, he does know how to sing and when to take the lyrical route ( he does all four roles, and as a friend of mine put it, she really loved his soft, gentle Winterstürme, because "this is a love song, and after Hunding, the last thing Sieglinde needs is a yelling macho bear"). And he's a wizard on stage.

But still, a Siegfried who has the right voice, the right technique and the right looks... pretty much impossible. My dream Siegfried would look like Chris Hemsworth and sing like Set Svanholm.


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## silentio (Nov 10, 2014)

Sieglinde said:


> I collect Rings as much as possible, and so far the biggest problem is that in the last few decades, where we have video versions of, it's really hard to find even a decent Siegfried. Jerusalem does an okay job but doesn't have the raw power of the old legends, and most other Siegfrieds are either not fit for Wagner at all or have big but ugly voices and they shout instead of sing. The closest thing to perfection I have seen so far was Christian Franz - even though he isn't a Lorenz or Windgassen, he does know how to sing and when to take the lyrical route ( he does all four roles, and as a friend of mine put it, she really loved his soft, gentle Winterstürme, because "this is a love song, and after Hunding, the last thing Sieglinde needs is a yelling macho bear"). And he's a wizard on stage.
> 
> *But still, a Siegfried who has the right voice, the right technique and the right looks... pretty much impossible. My dream Siegfried would look like Chris Hemsworth and sing like Set Svanholm.*


I already found the Brunnhilde of my life.

She both sings wonderfully and looks sexy... But wait, no full recording, no footage available


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## amfortas (Jun 15, 2011)

Sieglinde said:


> . . . he does all four roles . . .


Which four roles?


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

Sieglinde said:


> My dream Siegfried would look like Chris Hemsworth and sing like Set Svanholm.


Sadly now you are more likely to get someone who looks like Set and sings like Chris!!


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

In fact, Svanholm himself looked quite the Nordic hero and was probably quite a package as Siegfried, visually and vocally. Melchior had the voice of a lion and looked like a big happy bear; if you could buy such a husky youngster (and why not? he's a god's grandson!), I'll bet he played the part to the hilt and that Flagstad didn't scare him one bit.

Siegfrieds have been getting punier ever since.


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## DarkAngel (Aug 11, 2010)

Sieglinde said:


> I collect Rings as much as possible, and *so far the biggest problem is that in the last few decades, where we have video versions of, it's really hard to find even a decent Siegfried*. Jerusalem does an okay job but doesn't have the raw power of the old legends, and most other Siegfrieds are either not fit for Wagner at all or have big but ugly voices and they shout instead of sing. The closest thing to perfection I have seen so far was Christian Franz - even though he isn't a Lorenz or Windgassen, he does know how to sing and when to take the lyrical route ( he does all four roles, and as a friend of mine put it, she really loved his soft, gentle Winterstürme, because "this is a love song, and after Hunding, the last thing Sieglinde needs is a yelling macho bear"). And he's a wizard on stage.
> 
> But still, a Siegfried who has the right voice, the right technique and the right looks... pretty much impossible. My dream Siegfried would look like Chris Hemsworth and sing like Set Svanholm.


Jonas Kaufmann is the best we are going to find today, his recent MET Ring video (the machine) Siegfried was the highlight of all singers involved I like him better than Jerusalem both singing and acting, the visual production itself varies from visually inspired to "no, no, noooooo"


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

I think I have all the Rings I need. I enjoy all the mainstream label releases plus the historic Bayreuth ones by Walhall and Myto. I like hearing the Bayreuth Rings.

I am currently collecting the Thielemann which I really enjoy.
Then the remastered Solti and I'm done.

Each one is its own listening experience because the Ring is so rich.


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## mountmccabe (May 1, 2013)

Jonas Kaufmann was Siegmund, of course.

When I saw the Machine in a later run Siegmund was Stuart Skelton, who is going to sing Tristan at the Met to open the new season.

The Siegfried I saw in that run was Stephen Gould, he was one of the singers who dropped out of the opening run of the opera when they recorded the DVD. I was happy with his Siegfried, but I was blown away by his Tristan at ROH. He currently seems to be on a run of Tristans, recently finishing in Hamburg, opening in a few days in Berlin, and singing the role at Bayreuth this summer.

He next sings Siegfried in in January in Dresden, under Christian Thielemann, with Nina Stemme.


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

DarkAngel said:


> Jonas Kaufmann is the best we are going to find today, his recent MET Ring video (the machine) Siegfried was the highlight of all singers involved I like him better than Jerusalem both singing and acting, the visual production itself varies from visually inspired to "no, no, noooooo"


Kaufmann didn't sing Siegfried in this production. He was Siegmund in Walkure only. I'm not sure he will ever tackle Siegfried.


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

Siegfried requires a superman.


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## DarkAngel (Aug 11, 2010)

mountmccabe said:


> Jonas Kaufmann was Siegmund, of course.





> Kaufmann didn't sing Siegfried in this production. He was Siegmund in Walkure only. I'm not sure he will ever tackle Siegfried.


What was I thinking..........Jay Hunter Morris was Siegfried, I take back all I said, we still are looking for great modern singer of the role 



I think Kaufmann will try perform the role someday, he has done Parsifal and Lohengrin already, these are often preludes for singers working up to Siegfried......Jess Thomas followed this path


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

DarkAngel said:


> What was I thinking..........Jay Hunter Morris was Siegfried, I take back all I said, we still are looking for great modern singer of the role
> 
> 
> 
> I think Kaufmann will try perform the role someday, he has done Parsifal and Lohengrin already, these are often preludes for singers working up to Siegfried......Jess Thomas followed this path


I'm not aware of Kaufmann speaking of Siegfried, but he is planning on Tristan. He's put it off because, he says, once you've sung the part everyone will want you to do it, you'll have no time for anything else, and your career will soon be over (it didn't hurt Melchior, but then he wasn't human). Siegfried is just as much a killer as Tristan.


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

What happened to Kaufmann's Meistersinger?


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## mountmccabe (May 1, 2013)

Itullian said:


> What happened to Kaufmann's Meistersinger?


A production at Bayerische Staatsoper with Jonas as Walther just opened with Kirill Petrenko conducting and Wolfgang Koch as Hans Sachs. Reviews have been very good.

They are streaming video of the production on July 31 on Bayerische Staatsoper TV. The production is by David Bösch; it sounds wonderfully thought out and well wrought. As can be gathered from those reviews, it is not a traditional one.


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## fridgebuzz (Dec 3, 2015)

Daniel Brenna was a mighty good Siegfried at last month's WNO Ring. Well, for these days.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

fridgebuzz said:


> Daniel Brenna was a mighty good Siegfried at last month's WNO Ring. Well, for these days.


Nice first post, welcome to Talk Classical


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

DarkAngel said:


> Jonas Kaufmann is the best we are going to find today, his recent MET Ring video (the machine) Siegfried was the highlight of all singers involved I like him better than Jerusalem both singing and acting, the visual production itself varies from visually inspired to "no, no, noooooo"


And he's got Eva-Maria Westbroek on his site :tiphat:


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

Itullian said:


> What happened to Kaufmann's Meistersinger?


I may be wrong but I think he sang Walther in a concert performance of Meistersinger at the Edinburgh Festival a few years ago.


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## kineno (Jan 24, 2015)

Barbebleu said:


> I may be wrong but I think he sang Walther in a concert performance of Meistersinger at the Edinburgh Festival a few years ago.


He did; I have a copy of the recording!


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## kineno (Jan 24, 2015)

Stefan Vinke is another of the best Siegfrieds around these days. He was enormously impressive in Siegfried, opposite Christine Goerke in Toronto this year, and I expect the results were similar in Houston a couple of months ago.


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## cheftimmyr (Oct 28, 2015)

kineno said:


> Stefan Vinke is another of the best Siegfrieds around these days. He was enormously impressive in Siegfried, opposite Christine Goerke in Toronto this year, and I expect the results were similar in Houston a couple of months ago.


I was in Houston for Siegfried but it was Jay Hunter Morris singing Siegfried... I found him adequate, not superb. It was my first live Wagner experience though, so that in and of itself was magical!


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## kineno (Jan 24, 2015)

Oh, you're right! My brain wasn't functioning when I wrote that Vinke also sang in Houston!


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

kineno said:


> Oh, you're right! My brain wasn't functioning when I wrote that Vinke also sang in Houston!


Happens to all of us from time to time


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## Reichstag aus LICHT (Oct 25, 2010)

kineno said:


> Stefan Vinke is another of the best Siegfrieds around these days.


I agree. Vinke was already good in the Covent Garden _Ring_ in 2012, and was even better when I saw him at Bayreuth last year (despite the wacky Frank Castorf production).


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## Steatopygous (Jul 5, 2015)

Vinke was Siegfried in Melbourne in 2013 and will take the same role when the production is given again in November this year. I didn't know anything bout him before that, and was blown away. He wasn't flawless - who is? - but by crikey he was good. Ringing top notes with marvellous power and accuracy. I saw it twice in 2013, and will see it twice this year too. The production itself is mixed, but unless you live in London, New York or Bayreuth you are not going to get too many opportunities to go to the Ring in your home town.


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## kineno (Jan 24, 2015)

Vinke was also very impressive in the Seattle Ring in 2013, which is available on cd.


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