# Manual Transmission Poll



## SixFootScowl

Just wondering what the folks on TC think of manual transmissions. I got my first one at the age of 17 when my grandfather gave me his '63 Chevy with column shift and non-syncronized first gear. Then I bought a '77 F100 column shift, an '84 F150 floor shift, a '95 F150 floor shift, and finally an now driving an '01 Ford Ranger floor shift. That's 38 years of stick shifting. But I have driven a lot in automatics because my wife has an automatic. At least her car ('99 Plymouth Voyager) has a nice simple 3-speed automatic that functions well. She had a 2005 Mercury Mountaineer that had a horrible automatic (and horrible HVAC that was way too complicated). 

But for me, shifting the gears makes me feel like I am part of the machine, keeps me involved, and is a whole lot of fun. I'll use an automatic to get from point A to point B, but with a manual, I am inclined to take back roads and extra excursions, just for the fun of it, when I have the extra time which is rare.


----------



## Bulldog

Manual transmissions for me. As Florestan said, it's fun and keeps one alert. Folks who have only driven automatics don't know what they're missing. Also, going automatic is a lazy way to drive.


----------



## ptr

Automatics takes the fun out of driving! Manual for me!

/ptr


----------



## Couchie

The only problem with automatics is that they're not automatic enough. Still waiting for Google to save me from having to perform such tediousness as using the pedals and steering.


----------



## SixFootScowl

Couchie said:


> The only problem with automatics is that they're not automatic enough. Still waiting for Google to save me from having to perform such tediousness as using the pedals and steering.


They already have that. It's call mass transit.


----------



## elgar's ghost

Erm....I can't drive! When I was a boy in the 60s I always thought the Ford Zodiac Mk. III which were used as taxis in Worcester looked cool, especially in the taxi company's black livery.


----------



## Guest

Most folk in the UK drive manual.


----------



## GreenMamba

Stick for me. I joke that I don't know how to drive automatic. I get P, R, N, D, but anything more and I'm lost.


----------



## SixFootScowl

I forgot to mention that I like my manual transmissions driving the rear wheels.

Then there are the pseudo manuals where they give you a gate, but I drove one once and quickly went back to full automatic. There is nothing quite like the good old fashioned clutch disc and pressure plate set-up.


----------



## SixFootScowl

GreenMamba said:


> Stick for me. I joke that I don't know how to drive automatic. I get P, R, N, D, but anything more and I'm lost.


I think the rest of it goes like this (for me anyway): P R N D U L L

But not to make this an anti automatic thread. I do appreciate that some prefer automatics and don't think they should have to drive a stick--but try it at least. If they phase out manuals in the U.S. I might have to move to the UK. When I was a kid (1960s/70s) manual transmissions were pretty abundant and the term "standard transmission" still made sense because it was the standard equipment on many vehicles.


----------



## Ukko

In _normal_ vehicles I prefer a stick-on-the-floor manual trans. My Prius C is so computerized that the infinitely variable auto trans makes perfect sense.


----------



## SixFootScowl

Ukko said:


> In _normal_ vehicles I prefer a stick-on-the-floor manual trans. My Prius C is so computerized that the infinitely variable auto trans makes perfect sense.


Yeah, the Prius is a whole different animal.

I do like the floor shift, but had a couple column shifts and really have fond memories of column shifting. Also fun to confuse people who don't know about manual transmissions when you give them a ride. Used to call them Three-On-The-Tree and when the linkage got loose after many miles we call it Find-Em-Or-Grind-Em.










Here is my '77 column shifted F100. It had full mechanical clutch linkage with a rod (not a cable). You can see the rod going through the floor behind and between the clutch and brake pedals in the first shot. Yeah that is an image of Jimi Hendrix hanging from the mirror. Also love the way dashboards were designed so you could store tons of junk on the dash. Bottom photo is cruising on the highway so the lever is back and down, really can't see it. That's my sister driving.


----------



## Kivimees

Yes, memories:


----------



## Jos

I'd love to join the stick-is-best club. Your argument about being involved, the active driving, all true. I thouroughly enjoyed hammering our little Alfa Romeo through the Alps or getting very silly with my poor mans Porsche 924. Our familycars, Volvo and Mercedes estates, all manual shifters and rearwheeldrives. Great cars, all of them, yeah stick rules.......

But then we got this RangeRover, V8 with a silky smooth automatic box. Whooohaaa, sorry guys, I'm joining the sissyboycamp of fully automated lazy driving :lol: ........unless I can convince my wife that this classic '87 Porsche 911 is not idiotic with 3 kids and 2 dogs. Afraid I'm going to fail......


----------



## SixFootScowl

Jos said:


> Afraid I'm going to fail......


Then you will have to get your fail shirt


----------



## Weston

My bicycle has 24 gear combinations and I have to shift them manually, but I like the feeling of being in control.


----------



## Ukko

Weston said:


> My bicycle has 24 gear combinations and I have to shift them manually, but I like the feeling of being in control.


Hah. My memory being what it is, that would guarantee I was _not_ in control.


----------



## Wood

Florestan said:


> Just wondering what the folks on TC think of manual transmissions.


My favourite gearbox has a boot operated shifter with neutral finder. Made by Albion in the 1930s.


----------



## Weston

I first learned to drive a manual transmission (or straight shift as we call them in my part of the world) in a fuel truck for private aircraft. I would practice out on the ramp on the late shift when no one was looking because driving a manual was a prerequisite for being hired. There are few things as terrifying as starting out herky-jerky with 2000 lbs of 100 octane aircraft fuel sloshing back and forth at your back adding its weight to the vehicle's jerking. Fortunately it only took me a few nights to get the hang of it and my ruse was never discovered. 

I've had a few manual transmission cars and they're fun in their own way. But these days I prefer not to have the headache of a motorized vehicle at all. I've been on time for work for several years now since I abandoned the finicky high maintenance noisy smelly things.


----------



## SixFootScowl

Weston said:


> My bicycle has 24 gear combinations and I have to shift them manually, but I like the feeling of being in control.


I like gearshifting on bicycles. I have the levers with the positive stops for each gear. I usually stay on the same front cog and just manipulate the rear cogs.


----------



## KenOC

I've had several manuals and of course quite a few motorcycles, which were all manual. But where I live now you're often finding yourself in stop-and-go traffic for long periods of time. I'm afraid than manual transmissions just get too tiresome then. The newer auto transmissions (as on my current car) can handily be shifted up and down (without clutch) but I seldom do that, being of advanced age and no longer quite such a sporty person. Staid and boring is my ticket.


----------



## Becca

Florestan said:


> I forgot to mention that I like my manual transmissions driving the rear wheels.
> 
> Then there are the pseudo manuals where they give you a gate, but I drove one once and quickly went back to full automatic. There is nothing quite like the good old fashioned clutch disc and pressure plate set-up.


...except when the throwout bearing goes poof, taking the rest of the clutch assembly with it and leaving me with a $2500 repair bill. I loved my 1995 5 speed manual, front wheel drive Volvo 850 for 173K miles but ended up replacing it with a 1996 automatic transmission 850 - the first car that I have ever had with an automatic.


----------



## Manxfeeder

I prefer a stick. My present car is an automatic, and I take a route to work that goes down steep hills so I can at least downshift.


----------



## hpowders

My next car will have a ZF 8 speed automatic. If you drive a 911 or Cayman, the stick is the way to go.


----------



## StlukesguildOhio

Only 3.9% of new cars sold in the US have manual transmissions according the recent numbers online. I drove a stick for several years just out of college... the car was about $2000 cheaper than a comparable automatic... because so few people can actually drive a stick. Dealing with constant stop-and-go rush hour traffic I'll stick with the automatic.


----------



## Becca

StlukesguildOhio said:


> Only 3.9% of new cars sold in the US have manual transmissions according the recent numbers online.


Yes, and one is reminded of that when you hear the valet parking guy mutter 'oh sh**' when he gets into the car.


----------



## SixFootScowl

Becca said:


> ...except when the throwout bearing goes poof, taking the rest of the clutch assembly with it and leaving me with a $2500 repair bill. I loved my 1995 5 speed manual, front wheel drive Volvo 850 for 173K miles but ended up replacing it with a 1996 automatic transmission 850 - the first car that I have ever had with an automatic.


My throwout bearing went poof but only took out the slave cylinder. We replaced the clutch anyway because it was nearing the end of it's useful life and didn't want to tear it down in another year. Total cost $615 parts and labor (slave, throwout, pressure plate, clutch disc, and pilot bearing). That must be the difference between a Ford and a Volvo.


----------



## Becca

Florestan said:


> My throwout bearing went poof but only took out the slave cylinder. We replaced the clutch anyway because it was nearing the end of it's useful life and didn't want to tear it down in another year. Total cost $615 parts and labor (slave, throwout, pressure plate, clutch disc, and pilot bearing). That must be the difference between a Ford and a Volvo.


...and that the Volvo is a transverse mount front wheel drive


----------



## geralmar

The only reason I bought a manual was so my mother wouldn't ask to borrow my car.


----------



## ArtMusic

Manual transmission is a thing of the past.


----------



## hpowders

StlukesguildOhio said:


> Only 3.9% of new cars sold in the US have manual transmissions according the recent numbers online. I drove a stick for several years just out of college... the car was about $2000 cheaper than a comparable automatic... because so few people can actually drive a stick. Dealing with constant stop-and-go rush hour traffic I'll stick with the automatic.


Those 3.9% are enthusiasts who drive a Porsche 911 Cayman or Boxster, various BMW's and Mazda Miatas. For them a MT is the only way to go.


----------



## geralmar

I owned a Mustang with an automatic transmission. I felt like an idiot.


----------



## Guest

I've never owned anything other than a manual. My father-in-law's car was an auto - I drove that a few times, but struggled to keep my unemployed foot out of the way!


----------



## Jos

hpowders said:


> Those 3.9% are enthusiasts who drive a Porsche 911 Cayman or Boxster, various BMW's and Mazda Miatas. For them a MT is the only way to go.


Don't these modern Porsches have these "flipper"shifters, small levers at the steeringwheel, formula1-style, for ultrafast shifting through the gears operated by servo's or such ? Still manual, but not the old-school real men meaning of the concept.


----------



## GreenMamba

hpowders said:


> Those 3.9% are enthusiasts who drive a Porsche 911 Cayman or Boxster, various BMW's and Mazda Miatas. For them a MT is the only way to go.


And then there's me and my Chevy Cruze stick shift.


----------



## Guest

I used to drive my boss' automatic occasionally. It sounded like it was changing gear all the time. I felt like shouting "Who's driving this car, you or me????!!!"

Hated it.


----------



## Jos

Anyone here ever tried the Citroen 2cv manual box? Our first car, convertible and all, but with very outlandish gearshifting.
The ultimate care to separate the boys from the men...:lol:


----------



## ptr

Jos said:


> Anyone here ever tried the Citroen 2cv manual box? Our first car, convertible and all, but with very outlandish gearshifting.
> The ultimate care to separate the boys from the men...:lol:


Brings back memories, My second car was a medium blue 2CV, had it for two months, my mum had me sell it after I rolled it over in the 90 degree bend on the dirt road up to the house where I grew up, that suspension was/is very treacherous going to fast in to steep corners on narrow roads with "deep" side trenches... (First car was my grand dad's hand me down Morris Minor, third one was a Maroon second hand 1971 Volvo 164!) 

/ptr


----------



## Vlad

I answered manual, but I have an automatic. There was no "If I had a choice it would me manual" option! I'm not sure why, but I think it's related to the same reason I write with a fountain pen and wear a mechanical watch.


----------



## JohnnyRotten

Manual transmission, every time! How else can I optimize my escapes from the filth? Automatic transmission is for the old biddies and lazy fat geezers.


----------



## SixFootScowl

Vlad said:


> I answered manual, but I have an automatic. There was no "If I had a choice it would me manual" option! I'm not sure why, but I think it's related to the same reason I write with a fountain pen and wear a mechanical watch.


That is a great option I should have included, but it was outside my thought process because there are a few things in life I refuse to give in on and one is a manual transmission. So I do have a choice because I am not going to let anybody stop me. A lot of guys will give up the stick and get a kid hauling automatic van, we'll we have that but I also retain my stick.

In some cases I guess if there is not enough money to afford more than one car you are stuck, but I have 4 vehicles at my house (not counting the motorhome) and the worst cost is insurance. All four vehicles total purchase cost (one is my son's S10 pickup--also a manual!), is $13,800. Yes, for the cost of one new, stripped down economy car I got 4 cars: 1997 Ford Escort with 36,000 original miles (no work needed, mint condition), 2001 S10 pickup (no work needed), 2001 Ranger pickup (had to spend a few hundred on brakes when I got it), and the 1999 Plymouth Voyager (needed about $1700 of work for brakes and a radiator, and some other misc stuff).

I do like mechanical watches (but stopped wearing watches since I have a cell phone) but am not fond of fountain pens since click top ball points are so much more convenient.


----------



## JohnnyRotten

I just love pushing that engine to the max (music to my ears!) instead of some *****-foot mechanism kicking in when I don't want it!


----------



## SixFootScowl

JohnnyRotten said:


> I just love pushing that engine to the max (music to my ears!) instead of some *****-foot mechanism kicking in when I don't want it!


Yes, exactly! I have had some automatics that were relatively well behaved, but others that were very finicky and would go all over the place gear wise. Like the 3.0 Aerostar. I would simply want to give it a little more pedal but not necessarily downshift, but it would downshift. Or if I did want it to downshift and hit it harder it might go down two gears and scream.

Also love the sound of the engine with a nice performance muffler (Dynomax Super Turbo is great). Music to my ears, but it always strikes me as wrong when I hear some automatics take off and they rev like a banshee just to roll out from a stop (just sounds very unnatural spinning all that juice). Or will shift into second just as the guy gets to a stop sign.

I love to run the manual Ranger out to 5000 and then hit second so hard the whole truck lurches. I have hit the rev limiter somewhere just above 6000. I has a curb weight about 3100 pounds and a 2.3L DOHC 16-valve 4-banger. Really screams.


----------



## Krummhorn

I learned how to drive on a manual transmission. That's what most of the cars were in those days - automatics were an option and one would have to pay extra for that. 

It was a 1956 Rambler station wagon - three on the tree - no power steering, no power brakes, no power anything. Even the windshield wipers worked off vacuum pressure from the engine. 

Every car I have owned throughout the years has been manual shift. 

Today I drive a stick - 5 speed manual - 2004 VW Jetta, GLS with the 1.8L turbo (gas). I am the one in total control of how the car performs on acceleration or slowing down by downshifting.


----------



## Rangstrom

Always a stick--currently a BMW 335 all-wheel drive with 6 speed. Just a lovely car to drive, but my next car will most likely be an automatic as manuals are getting harder to find (latest car is a custom build) and the manuals are taking a hit on resale/trade-in. Significant arthritis in the left knee doesn't help either.


----------



## SixFootScowl

Becca said:


> ...and that the Volvo is a transverse mount front wheel drive


That thought crossed my mind later. Glad you pointed it out.


----------



## georgedelorean

Off all the cars I've ever had, only two have been automatics: the '85 Century, and the '97 Taurus. The '93 Escort, '07 Focus, and my current '92 Escort are manuals.


----------



## david johnson

I learned manual on a 280Z. I have loved it ever since then. Other manuals I've had - some Ford Escorts and a BWM.


----------



## SixFootScowl

david johnson said:


> *I learned manual on a 280Z. * I have loved it ever since then. Other manuals I've had - some Ford Escorts and a BWM.


280Z is a very sporty car. As I recall it has a performance inline six. I used to salivate over those as well as many other cars, but always had mostly pickup trucks because I like to crawl under them easily for maintenance, and they are better in 10-inches of snow because they don't get hung up on the floorpan. The answer, of course, is a pickup for winter and a sporty car (or muscle car) for summer.


----------



## Azol

Rangstrom said:


> Always a stick--currently a BMW 335 all-wheel drive with 6 speed. Just a lovely car to drive, but my next car will most likely be an automatic as manuals are getting harder to find (latest car is a custom build) and the manuals are taking a hit on resale/trade-in. Significant arthritis in the left knee doesn't help either.


I like manual, but my left knee does not - true story.


----------



## SixFootScowl

Azol said:


> I like manual, but my left knee does not - true story.


Now that is a solid case for knee-replacement surgery if I ever saw one.


----------



## Strange Magic

Every car I've owned has been a manual. My wife also is a manual driver. The manual transmission, by putting so much flexibility into the hands of the driver, makes driving an activity, a capability, that can give quite a bit of pleasure on an open roadway. Plus it saves one's brakes, especially when combined with keeping a sensible distance behind the car ahead--on average, looking at brake lights on cars ahead of me, I brake once for every ten brakings of the driver ahead. And broken automatic transmissions keep a whole industry in business--who ever heard of a modern manual transmission going bad? A new clutch needed maybe, but never a new transmission.


----------



## ldiat

many years ago i was driving a '56 or so Fiat. turn the key and pull up on handle which stared the car. every once in a while had to push it a little to "align the brushes" to start. but the next thing i had to double clutch the gears. r 1-2-3. going up a steep hill? mayb 25mph. 
Any one drive a car with the gear shift on the column? on the steering column?


----------



## ldiat

Strange Magic said:


> Every car I've owned has been a manual. My wife also is a manual driver. The manual transmission, by putting so much flexibility into the hands of the driver, makes driving an activity, a capability, that can give quite a bit of pleasure on an open roadway. Plus it saves one's brakes, especially when combined with keeping a sensible distance behind the car ahead--on average, looking at brake lights on cars ahead of me, I brake once for every ten brakings of the driver ahead. And broken automatic transmissions keep a whole industry in business--who ever heard of a modern manual transmission going bad? A new clutch needed maybe, but never a new transmission.


i like driving a manual tranny.....but do it in pittsburgh 1 foot on the gas 1 foot on the brake 1 foot on the clutch. sitting on a hill


----------



## SixFootScowl

ldiat said:


> i like driving a manual tranny.....but do it in pittsburgh 1 foot on the gas 1 foot on the brake 1 foot on the clutch. sitting on a hill


You just have to be quick. But if the hill is extreme, I suppose it could be trouble. Wouldn't it be easier in that case to hold the parking brake and release it when you have the clutch coming into engagement?


----------



## SixFootScowl

ldiat said:


> many years ago i was driving a '56 or so Fiat. turn the key and pull up on handle which stared the car. every once in a while had to push it a little to "align the brushes" to start. but the next thing i had to double clutch the gears. r 1-2-3. going up a steep hill? mayb 25mph.
> Any one drive a car with the gear shift on the column? on the steering column?


My 1964 Chevy Biscayne inline six had a 3-speed, column-shifted manual. That was my learner. Had the car only for about 6 months then got a 1977 F100 new with the same 3-speed column shift. We used to call them Three on the Tree.

Three on the Tree: Find 'em and Grind 'em, which was especially true after the linkage got really worn. You would have to fenagle the lever to get from first to second by pushing up towards reverse then dropping slightly and pushing it to second. Got so bad the linkage would sometime jam. Then had to go under the hood and pry it apart. Never thought to have it repaired. Back then spare change was for cigarettes, beer and gasoline, not repairs.


----------



## EdwardBast

ldiat said:


> i like driving a manual tranny.....but do it in pittsburgh 1 foot on the gas 1 foot on the brake 1 foot on the clutch. sitting on a hill


I learned to drive stick in Pittsburgh. Yes, that is an adventure, but afterward everywhere else is easy. Manual transmission is much better for dealing with snow. Much more control.


----------



## EddieRUKiddingVarese

I've got one of each 6 speed auto Holden captiva and the famous Hillman Hunter with a 4 on the floor


----------



## T Son of Ander

I love manual transmission. Most of the cars and trucks I've had were manual, though I have had a couple automatics. I prefer manual, but I don't make it a prerequisite.


----------



## Strange Magic

ldiat said:


> i like driving a manual tranny.....but do it in pittsburgh 1 foot on the gas 1 foot on the brake 1 foot on the clutch. sitting on a hill


This is where the manual Subaru shines. The Hill Holder does just that on an uphill slope, holding the car in position so you can take that foot off the brake. Wonderful invention!

Another benefit of the manual transmission is to make a sporty little tiger out of a sluggish wimpy nothing. My wife's car is a 2005 Scion xA, which are sold 90% as an automatic, in which case the car can't get out of its own way. But with the 5-speed manual, that little 1.5 liter Scion is a great road car for twisting country roads--a real treat to drive!


----------



## KenOC

I remember in Seattle, trying to start up a steep hill downtown when the light changed. Unfortunately, my rear tires were on a wet steel plate (Seattle, remember?) and did nothing but spin and actually let me slip backwards. There was another car behind right on my tail, waiting. Most aggravating!

That aside, a lot of my driving now is in slow-and-go traffic, miles of it. A manual can get very wearisome! I don't really want to feel "at one with my car" in a traffic jam.


----------



## Strange Magic

KenOC said:


> I remember in Seattle, trying to start up a steep hill downtown when the light changed. Unfortunately, my rear tires were on a wet steel plate (Seattle, remember?) and did nothing but spin and actually let me slip backwards. There was another car behind right on my tail, waiting. Most aggravating!
> 
> That aside, a lot of my driving now is in slow-and-go traffic, miles of it. A manual can get very wearisome! I don't really want to feel "at one with my car" in a traffic jam.


You're right, Ken; stop-and-go traffic reveals the downside of the manual transmission. But it makes the moment of bursting free on the homeward commute almost orgasmic as you work up through the pattern to reach cruising speed. I used to commute to and from Philly, 50 miles each way, but the both the local and state police left the commuters alone, especially on the drive out of town on the way home, and one could reach and cruise at some serious velocity without being hassled.


----------



## Totenfeier

Vlad said:


> I answered manual, but I have an automatic. There was no "If I had a choice it would me manual" option! I'm not sure why, but I think it's related to the same reason I write with a fountain pen and wear a mechanical watch.


Pretty much this with me, as well. I'm beginning to think, as I suspect many of you are, that each new "safety" feature added to modern cars is simply one more excuse for the nut behind the wheel to pay less and less attention to the matter at hand - the actual act of actually _driving_, _focusing_ on it, and _enjoying_ the _experience_, rather than using one hand to text about the awesome latte you're drinking with the other.


----------



## Kjetil Heggelund

Just got a "new" car and it has automatic gear. Not used to that but it's very easy.


----------



## ldiat

Florestan said:


> You just have to be quick. But if the hill is extreme, I suppose it could be trouble. Wouldn't it be easier in that case to hold the parking brake and release it when you have the clutch coming into engagement?


yes have to b quick!


----------



## Klassik

I love automatic transmissions. I have a long commute. I like to keep my right arm fresh for much more enjoyable activities than shifting!

Speaking of knobs and levers, one thing that annoys me about modern automatic transmissions are these non-intuitive gear selectors. Some have mono-stable levers or knobs for shifting that give the user little idea what gear they are in. Even some of these non-monostable shifters are pretty goofy and not ergonomic. Many of the cars that have these have uselessly huge center consoles for FWD cars anyway so there's no argument that there's not room on them for a shifter. Even if that was the case, a column-mounted shifter would be better. Fortunately, I was able to find a new car last year that maintains a normal shift lever.

My current car actually has a CVT automatic. I know these get a lot of grief, but I like it (though we'll see how reliable it is). It's very smooth, quiet, and it's never stuck in between gears like some automatics. Like any good automatic, it'll downshift/change ratios quickly if the accelerator is pressed hard enough. It'll actually simulate shift points if the throttle is inputted aggressively. The fact that I get 40-45 mpg consistently on my highway commute in a midsize family sedan that is not at all underpowered is another big benefit.


----------



## EddieRUKiddingVarese

^ Jeez, your getting much better milage than me, I'm doing 11.7L/100Km 20.1 mpg, even on Highway......

Maybe i should lift the foot a bit I guess


----------



## Klassik

EddieRUKiddingVarese said:


> ^ Jeez, your getting much better milage than me, I'm doing 11.7L/100Km 20.1 mpg, even on Highway......
> 
> Maybe i should lift the foot a bit I guess


Perhaps, but then again, I'm not being chased by Tasmanian devils!


----------



## SixFootScowl

EddieRUKiddingVarese said:


> ^ Jeez, your getting much better milage than me, I'm doing 11.7L/100Km 20.1 mpg, even on Highway......
> 
> *Maybe i should lift the foot a bit I guess*


I have the same problem. Foot always into it. I get about 24-25 mpg that way, where a guy I know who has the same truck and drives very moderately gets around 29 mpg. I am familiar with the rev limiter on mine (around 5800 rpm). The other guy says he rarely sees over 3500. But really, the powerband on this 2.3L DOHC 16-valve inline four just starts at 3500.


----------



## EddieRUKiddingVarese

Florestan said:


> I have the same problem. Foot always into it. I get about 24-25 mpg that way, where a guy I know who has the same truck and drives very moderately gets around 29 mpg. I am familiar with the rev limiter on mine (around 5800 rpm). The other guy says he rarely sees over 3500. But really, the powerband on this 2.3L DOHC 16-valve inline four just starts at 3500.


Mines a 3.0ltr V6 SIDI petrol thing branded and made here by Holden (GM division) but think its really a Buick/ Chev thingy and will rev to about 6500 before limiter kicks


----------



## Dan Ante

After a life time of cars I can honestly say that I would not go back to the old fashioned ‘stick and clutch’ its auto trans for me every time at the present I have a coupe and a roadster both auto.


----------



## Krummhorn

My main beef with drivers with automatic transmissions is that they continually ride their brakes when going downhill, even though they have the full capability to 'downshift' and use engine braking to help control the speed. 

My other complaint with some auto trans drivers are those that brake with the left foot and leave their foot on the pedal, activating the brake lights ... those behind them don't know if they are stopping or accelerating!

As said before I'll always prefer manual ... where I am in complete control of things.


----------



## EddieRUKiddingVarese

Krummhorn said:


> My main beef with drivers with automatic transmissions is that they continually ride their brakes when going downhill, even though they have the full capability to 'downshift' and use engine braking to help control the speed.
> 
> My other complaint with some auto trans drivers are those that brake with the left foot and leave their foot on the pedal, activating the brake lights ... those behind them don't know if they are stopping or accelerating!
> 
> As said before I'll always prefer manual ... where I am in complete control of things.


"My other complaint with some auto trans drivers are those that brake with the left foot and leave their foot on the pedal, activating the brake lights ... those behind them don't know if they are stopping or accelerating!"

you can do that with a manual to you know


----------



## Dan Ante

ALL modern, quality auto transmissions have auto engine braking on over run/downhill it is usually activated by touching the brake pedal lightly just once.


----------



## Klassik

Krummhorn said:


> My main beef with drivers with automatic transmissions is that they continually ride their brakes when going downhill, even though they have the full capability to 'downshift' and use engine braking to help control the speed.
> 
> *My other complaint with some auto trans drivers are those that brake with the left foot and leave their foot on the pedal, activating the brake lights ... those behind them don't know if they are stopping or accelerating!*
> 
> As said before I'll always prefer manual ... where I am in complete control of things.


This sounds like user error to me. User error perhaps caused by living near too many retirees.

A good automatic transmission allows the driver to have control over things when needed by reacting appropriately to throttle inputs. On some cars, not particularly good ones I would say, the automatic transmissions want to hold high gear no matter what. I wouldn't want one of these cars (these cars are probably terrible in other areas as well), but there are many cars with automatic transmissions that behave logically.

I once put some miles on a car that had a shiftable automatic transmission. Once the novelty wore off, I never used the manual shift option. The automatic transmission did a fine job on it's own (which was pretty remarkable given how much of a POS the rest of the car was).

I can understand the appeal of manual transmissions on older, more underpowered cars. These days, however, even a base model Camry has more than 200hp. Sports cars from not too long ago would be jealous. In the past, many cars had very unreliable automatic transmissions (Ford/Mazda, Chrysler, and Hondas in particular had troublesome automatics). I'm sure some cars still have troublesome automatics (the automated manuals from current Ford and Honda/Acura models have poor reputations AFAIK), but I'm sure many other models have reliable automatics that will only need routine maintenance. Speaking of which, one thing about some automatics that I don't like is that some models do not have drain plugs for ATF. This makes maintenance for owners of higher mileage cars a real pain.


----------



## Strange Magic

If you like to drive; if you enjoy the interaction among yourself, the machine, and the road and traffic conditions; if you are pleased by coming up with just the correct balance of accelerator, gear, and brake to adjust to the ever-changing patterns on a curving country road, there is simply no substitute for the vehicle with a manual transmission. If driving is merely a necessary chore, then automatic is the way to go.


----------



## SixFootScowl

I have had to drive many automatic transmission vehicles because my wife prefers that and I drive when we go anywhere together. Of them all, the worst was a 2005 Mercury Mountaineer, but that was a design flaw that left it hang in neutral sometimes when you floored it (very dangerous too), and second worst was a 1992 Aerostar that would flip flop between gears. The very best is her current car, a 1999 Plymouth Voyager 2.4L with 3 speed auto. Probably what makes this auto so nice is that it is very simple (only one electronic control--the torque converter lock up). Still, it would be way more fun to drive with a manual.


----------



## Klassik

It should be noted that many sports car manufacturers, like Ferrari, are not even offering manual transmissions on their latest models. Instead, they have dual-clutch automated transmissions. These can be shifted with paddles.

http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2016/10/ferrari-officially-abandons-manual-gearbox/


----------



## SixFootScowl

Klassik said:


> It should be noted that many sports car manufacturers, like Ferrari, are not even offering manual transmissions on their latest models. Instead, they have dual-clutch automated transmissions. These can be shifted with paddles.
> 
> http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2016/10/ferrari-officially-abandons-manual-gearbox/


I briefly drove a couple cars with paddles and it is boring. Also, the paddles were not responsive. There was enough of a delay to make it aggravating. I quickly just left it in drive.


----------



## Klassik

Florestan said:


> I briefly drove a couple cars with paddles and it is boring. Also, the paddles were not responsive. There was enough of a delay to make it aggravating. I quickly just left it in drive.


Paddle shifters on most cars with traditional automatics or CVTs are gimmicks. They are, as you say, slow to react. The paddles are often not even positioned correctly to use them in a turn. Perhaps I'm sure on a Ferrari with a DCT automatic, however, they are much quicker and precise. That said, I think the reason why the sports car makers are going with automatics is because they can shift much quicker than a human could.


----------



## Jos

the paddle shifters on our Audi A6 quattro are very slow indeed. Much quicker to just slam down that throttle for the kick down to come in once.....or twice :devil:

Looking for some sturdy 4x4, not made by landrover, for a trip to the northern light. Maybe a Ford F series or a Toyota Landcruiser or such. Preferably with manual gearbox.


----------



## Dan Ante

I had Jag and MG sport cars for years all with std manual G Boxes they did the job OK apart from what was in those days considered normal run of the mill maintenance such as clutch replacements and hydraulic problems i.e. master and slave cylinders etc and at the time were better than the automatic boxes available (Borg Warner) 
I have also had a couple of Ford Falcons with auto trans they were par for the day, but things have changed over the last 15 years and the transmissions in decent cars are far superior, the average driver of a manual can select the gear of choice when and if he/she pleases but this does not mean they are in more control of the vehicle and of course you can also do this in an automatic plus you can select std or sports mode and as I said before you have engine braking, I could go on and on but the best thing to do if you think manuals are better is to go and try a good quality car (auto) for a drive.


----------



## Guest

I wouldn't have a manual transmission under any circumstances, but I understand the need to have one in countries where it snows because of the better traction. We just bought one of these new 6 months ago and it only has a little stalk on the steering column the size of a windscreen washer control. The car has 9 gears, and is turbo and diesel. Panoramic sunroof not a good idea here where the summers are furious (Australia), so that's a disappointment. The electronics are driving us mad!! It is this car and colour, except our interior is black leather:


----------



## Taggart

Never seen the point of an automatic. Fuel is too expensive here to waste on all the extra weight and mechanical uncertainty.

I learnt to drive in Durham (England) where the average gradient is about 1 in 8. On a snowy day, even with the brakes on, the car would slide back. Once you got used to that, hills were no problem.


----------



## Guest

Drove sticks for 23 years straight but pushing the clutch started to affect my back. I decided when I junked my last stick after 17 years to get a hybrid so I bought a Prius which doesn't come in a stick even if I wanted it. It's hybrids or electric from now on.


----------



## SixFootScowl

Dan Ante said:


> ... I could go on and on but the best thing to do if you think manuals are better is to go and try a good quality car (auto) for a drive.


I don't know if they are better. That depends on the driver's desires. But they are more fun. And I like things simpler. I don't even want power windows or power locks. And if you ask me to drive a late model car, I likely will decline because the controls would be so foreign to me.

Here is my dream transmission (love that Muncie Rock Crusher gear whine):


----------



## KenOC

Depending on the kind of car you drive, you may not need a transmission at all.


----------



## Klassik

Taggart said:


> Never seen the point of an automatic. Fuel is too expensive here to waste on all the extra weight and mechanical uncertainty.


It's a myth these days that manuals always get better fuel economy than an automatic. I looked up a car that I know has a manual option (they're becoming rare here in the US), a 2017 Nissan Sentra with the base 1.8l engine. This is a common, basic car in the US. The 6-spd manual gets 27mpg city/35mpg highway. The CVT automatic model gets 29mpg city/37 highway. It wouldn't surprise me if a CVT weighs less than a manual, there's not really much to them.

If fuel savings is what you want, an automatic may be the way to go now even with regular gasoline cars. They do cost more to buy new, but the depreciation will be higher for a run of the mill manual car. Manual cars can be so hard to sell in fact that many dealers do not even order manuals even if the manufacturer offers them. Perhaps it's better for a manual driver to buy a used car where the depreciation loss is already gone.


----------



## SixFootScowl

Klassik said:


> I love automatic transmissions. I have a long commute. I like to keep my right arm fresh for much more enjoyable activities than shifting!


Not much effort to move the right arm for shifting. And with hydraulic actuated clutches it is not much effort on the leg either. Have you ever driven a manual transmission car? If so, for very long?


----------



## SixFootScowl

Klassik said:


> If fuel savings is what you want, an automatic may be the way to go now even with regular gasoline cars.


I don't dispute this, but if fuel savings is what *I* want, I'll take the bus. :lol:


----------



## EddieRUKiddingVarese

Taggart said:


> Never seen the point of an automatic. Fuel is too expensive here to waste on all the extra weight and mechanical uncertainty.
> 
> I learnt to drive in Durham (England) where the average gradient is about 1 in 8. On a snowy day, even with the brakes on, the car would slide back. Once you got used to that, hills were no problem.


Good God man does your car have soild rubber tyres too :lol:


----------



## Dan Ante

Florestan said:


> I don't know if they are better. That depends on the driver's desires. But they are more fun. And I like things simpler. I don't even want power windows or power locks. And if you ask me to drive a late model car, I likely will decline because the controls would be so foreign to me.
> 
> Here is my dream transmission (love that Muncie Rock Crusher gear whine):


I have heard a Churchill Tank make less noise :lol: no, really if you want simple how about a Horse ans Cart.
(this is a joke and should not be seen as some sort of attack on yourself, I thought I should make that clear as some people take offence so easily not that I think you are one of those people,_ stop digging Dan_.


----------



## SixFootScowl

Dan Ante said:


> I have heard a Churchill Tank make less noise :lol: no, really if you want simple how about a Horse ans Cart.
> (this is a joke and should not be seen as some sort of attack on yourself, I thought I should make that clear as some people take offence so easily not that I think you are one of those people,_ stop digging Dan_.


My son will only drive a manual also. At one time his signature was,

"I'll give up my manual transmission when they pry the shifter from my cold dead fingers."

But he would love to trade it in for a horse and buggy. Actually he would like both horse and manual (not combined).

But before you go back to horse and cart, there is the crash box (non-synchronized) manual box that required a lot of double clutching and rev matching. Now there is a "real man's" transmission, eh? No, I don't want to go to that, but if I found a good deal on a Model A Ford in retirement, I just might give it a go.

I did have a non-syncronized first gear on my first manual, a '64 Chevy column shifted 3-speed. Only a challenge coming in to a red light that changes green when you are not quite stopped but too slow to pull out in 2nd.


----------



## Klassik

Florestan said:


> Not much effort to move the right arm for shifting. And with hydraulic actuated clutches it is not much effort on the leg either. Have you ever driven a manual transmission car? If so, for very long?


Keep in mind that my commute is current ~2.5 hours due to road closures caused by the Houston flooding. ~2.5 hours each way! Much of it is in heavy traffic. It won't be nearly this bad forever (hopefully), but I'm sticking with the ease of an automatic.


----------



## SixFootScowl

Klassik said:


> Keep in mind that my commute is current *~2.5 hours due to road closures caused by the Houston flooding*. ~2.5 hours each way! Much of it is in heavy traffic. It won't be nearly this bad forever (hopefully), but I'm sticking with the ease of an automatic.


Ouch, but nonetheless you (and especially we) have much to be thankful for being spared the full brunt of that disaster. At least I do hope you were outside the zone of flooding.


----------



## Klassik

EddieRUKiddingVarese said:


> Good God man does your car have soild rubber tyres too :lol:


Screw automation! Manual chokes for everyone! Come to think of it, who needs engines? Fred Flintsone's car got around just fine with his feet and solid stone tires! Big gas savings, too!


----------



## Dan Ante

I remember in the late 60s having to make a 3 1/2 journey one way once a month in my XK150 and I was completely stuffed at the end, to day even after a 7 hr journey in a modern car you arrive relatively fresh.


----------



## Klassik

Florestan said:


> Ouch, but nonetheless you (and especially we) have much to be thankful for being spared the full brunt of that disaster. At least I do hope you were outside the zone of flooding.


None of my property got damaged, but the floods were knocking on my front door even though I don't live in a flood zone. It was up on my patio, but it started to recede before it got another 2-3" higher and into my house. Many others were not so fortunate though. Some roads and houses are still under water even though it has not rained in a week.


----------



## Strange Magic

Klassik said:


> It should be noted that many sports car manufacturers, like Ferrari, are not even offering manual transmissions on their latest models. Instead, they have dual-clutch automated transmissions. These can be shifted with paddles.
> 
> http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2016/10/ferrari-officially-abandons-manual-gearbox/


In an era when Porsche makes and sells SUVs, it's no wonder that sports car manufacturers are selling cars with automatic transmissions. The people buying such cars today are wealthy aging boomers who want to look cool and sporty--maybe wearing driving gloves--but they either haven't a clue about driving a car with a stick on a great road (having a Caddy as their primary vehicle), or are now too inert to so exert themselves. I am very likely older than any of them, but far younger in spirit .


----------



## EddieRUKiddingVarese

Strange Magic said:


> In an era when Porsche makes and sells SUVs, it's no wonder that sports car manufacturers are selling cars with automatic transmissions. The people buying such cars today are wealthy aging boomers who want to look cool and sporty--maybe wearing driving gloves--but they either haven't a clue about driving a car with a stick on a great road (having a Caddy as their primary vehicle), or are now too inert to so exert themselves. I am very likely older than any of them, but far younger in spirit .


"The people buying such cars today are wealthy aging boomers who want to look cool and sporty--maybe wearing driving gloves:"

Must be very different in US, here in Oz the only ones like that wearing gloves would be retirees driving MGB's restored to within an each of their lives


----------



## Klassik

Strange Magic said:


> In an era when Porsche makes and sells SUVs, it's no wonder that sports car manufacturers are selling cars with automatic transmissions. *The people buying such cars today are wealthy aging boomers who want to look cool and sporty--maybe wearing driving gloves--*but they either haven't a clue about driving a car with a stick on a great road (having a Caddy as their primary vehicle), or are now too inert to so exert themselves. I am very likely older than any of them, but far younger in spirit .


Probably more like the Sheikhs and the wealthy Chinese. I think Ferrari is making an SUV too. The Sheikhs and the wealthy Chinese probably have their chauffeurs drive them around in their Porsche and Ferrari SUVs!


----------



## SixFootScowl

Klassik said:


> Screw automation! Manual chokes for everyone! Come to think of it, who needs engines? Fred Flintsone's car got around just fine with his feet and solid stone tires! Big gas savings, too!


When the automatic choke went out on my 1977 F100 I found a convenient kit for a manual choke and installed it.


----------



## Klassik

Florestan said:


> When the automatic choke went out on my 1977 F100 I found a convenient kit for a manual choke and installed it.


Surely you think fuel injection was a worthy invention, right? :lol:

I guess we all have our hang ups. My car has automatic headlights, but I almost never run the headlights in "Auto" mode. I like to have control over my lights. Don't ask me, I'm sure the Auto mode works fine!


----------



## Dan Ante

Strange Magic said:


> In an era when Porsche makes and sells SUVs, it's no wonder that sports car manufacturers are selling cars with automatic transmissions. The people buying such cars today are wealthy aging boomers who want to look cool and sporty--maybe wearing driving gloves--but they either haven't a clue about driving a car with a stick on a great road (having a Caddy as their primary vehicle), or are now too inert to so exert themselves. I am very likely older than any of them, but far younger in spirit .


Maybe in America your comments would be correct but for most countries the dream of having a decent sports car comes at retirement that is when you can afford to splash out a bit and enjoy the rest of your life and the vast majority of these people will certainly have plenty of experience with manual trans in fact they probably cut their teeth on them and the fast country roads with tight bends, and yes for those with a roadster, gloves, silk scarf and a cap are essential.
Inert ?? no you will find them at the Golf Club and Tennis Club


----------



## SixFootScowl

Klassik said:


> *Surely you think fuel injection was a worthy invention, right? * :lol:
> 
> I guess we all have our hang ups. My car has automatic headlights, but I almost never run the headlights in "Auto" mode. I like to have control over my lights. Don't ask me, I'm sure the Auto mode works fine!


My son has the auto headlights and keeps it in manual mode.

Yes, I do like fuel injection because it allows for a lot more power by having long runners without concern for fuel precipitating out within them. But I also have fond memories of carburators. Unfortunately if I get a carburated vehicle now, only 1 in 1000 mechanics in the US would know how to tune it.


----------



## Dan Ante

Florestan said:


> Unfortunately if I get a carburated vehicle now, only 1 in 1000 mechanics in the US would know how to tune it.


You are spot on there, the mechanics today are mainly just operators of diagnostic equipment which tells them which bit to replace not many can actually strip and repair.


----------



## Strange Magic

Dan Ante said:


> Maybe in America your comments would be correct but for most countries the dream of having a decent sports car comes at retirement that is when you can afford to splash out a bit and enjoy the rest of your life and the vast majority of these people will certainly have plenty of experience with manual trans in fact they probably cut their teeth on them and the fast country roads with tight bends, and yes for those with a roadster, gloves, silk scarf and a cap are essential.
> Inert ?? no you will find them at the Golf Club and Tennis Club


But are they driving cars with manual transmissions now? Or do these newly-acquired sports cars mark the Beginning of one's personal End?


----------



## hpowders

Taggart said:


> Never seen the point of an automatic. Fuel is too expensive here to waste on all the extra weight and mechanical uncertainty.
> 
> I learnt to drive in Durham (England) where the average gradient is about 1 in 8. On a snowy day, even with the brakes on, the car would slide back. Once you got used to that, hills were no problem.


Spoken like a true European.


----------



## Dr Johnson

hpowders said:


> Spoken like a true European.


Have you driven on UK roads?

https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems/48212/the-rolling-english-road


----------



## Guest

Strange Magic said:


> But are they driving cars with manual transmissions now? Or do these newly-acquired sports cars mark the Beginning of one's personal End?


Most definitely a 'personal end', if you consider 60 - with a projected life expectancy of 25 years - to be 'the end'. I want to go out in comfort and style. And I live in a country where travel between major capital cities is many hundreds of kilometers - if you want to drive. And the *vast* majority of Australians with luxury SUVs have young families.


----------



## Dan Ante

Strange Magic said:


> But are they driving cars with manual transmissions now? Or do these newly-acquired sports cars mark the Beginning of one's personal End?


I am sorry but I don't see the connection, personally I would not go back to manual trans if I have a choice but having driven manuals since the age of 18 I am perfectly capable of handling them as would all people of my age. 
Some retired people may have cars at home with manual trans which they drive it's a matter of choice.


----------



## hpowders

Dr Johnson said:


> Have you driven on UK roads?
> 
> https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems/48212/the-rolling-english-road


No. Only just outside of Copenhagen.


----------



## EddieRUKiddingVarese

Strange Magic said:


> But are they driving cars with manual transmissions now? Or do these newly-acquired sports cars mark the Beginning of one's personal End?


There newly acquired sports cars typically look like this










or even this


----------



## EddieRUKiddingVarese

and sometime this


----------



## Guest

Dan Ante said:


> I am sorry but I don't see the connection, personally I would not go back to manual trans if I have a choice but having driven manuals since the age of 18 I am perfectly capable of handling them as would all people of my age.
> Some retired people may have cars at home with manual trans which they drive it's a matter of choice.


Try driving in Sydney (population 5 million) with a manual car; it does your head in!!!


----------



## Guest

EddieRUKiddingVarese said:


> and sometime this


I used to go out with a fellow (briefly) in the 1970s who had a Falcon GTHO - with those bonnet clips on the outside. It had a huge V8 engine and he was involved working in the pits at weekend race meets. He was too alpha male for me!!! And he hated females having an opinion!!:lol: Another boyfriend had an MGB, white. I was meant to adorn his sports car, but open my mouth and speak? No way!! Finally, I went for a Rambler Ambassador (auto) and its owner wore beautiful 3 piece suits and took me to all the fancy restaurants. A regular Adonis but he had a darker side; he built 'hot rods' on the side in a little garage not far from his home. That hot rod came between us (cough)!! Last I heard he was married, depressed, on 'stress leave', his house flooded by an inundation in Sydney (I same him interviewed on TV showing the inundation at Narrabeen Lakes) but owning an 'entry level' Mercedes. Definitely not manual, though.


----------



## Strange Magic

Dan Ante said:


> I am sorry but I don't see the connection, personally I would not go back to manual trans if I have a choice but having driven manuals since the age of 18 I am perfectly capable of handling them as would all people of my age.
> Some retired people may have cars at home with manual trans which they drive it's a matter of choice.


Of course it's a matter of choice. But my point is that if one enjoys or has enjoyed driving a capable car on inviting curving country roads--hilly, twisty--taking full advantage of the control that a manual transmission offers, then it represents a retreat, nay, even a spiritual death, to abandon that sense of accomplishment and settle instead for a slushomatic. I should think that NZ ought to be a manual trans driver's Nirvana, but I guess it does come down to the personality and goals of the driver.

Unlike NZ, I think fewer and fewer Americans know how to drive a stick today. Too busy texting, anyway.


----------



## Dan Ante

CountenanceAnglaise said:


> Try driving in Sydney (population 5 million) with a manual car; it does your head in!!!


I can well imagine but I have driven in London and that was not so hot.


----------



## EddieRUKiddingVarese

Or from Marseille to Venice (Mestre) which I did a couple of years ago - on the wrong side of the road but wisely I picked an auto for that one.


----------



## Dan Ante

Strange Magic said:


> Of course it's a matter of choice. But my point is that if one enjoys or has enjoyed driving a capable car on inviting curving country roads--hilly, twisty--taking full advantage of the control that a manual transmission offers, then it represents a retreat, nay, even a spiritual death, to abandon that sense of accomplishment and settle instead for a slushomatic. I should think that NZ ought to be a manual trans driver's Nirvana, but I guess it does come down to the personality and goals of the driver.
> 
> Unlike NZ, I think fewer and fewer Americans know how to drive a stick today. Too busy texting, anyway.


More control, yes I have heard that trotted out in the past but less so in recent years if it is your preference I have no problem with it but just how does driving a manual give you more control on curving country roads that are hilly and twisty? I belong to a car club and the model cars that I drive are available with manual boxes and I have driven them in all sorts of situations and I do not feel in more control, have you driven a modernish auto car with a decent transmission? :tiphat:


----------



## Strange Magic

Dan Ante said:


> More control, yes I have heard that trotted out in the past but less so in recent years if it is your preference I have no problem with it but just how does driving a manual give you more control on curving country roads that are hilly and twisty? I belong to a car club and the model cars that I drive are available with manual boxes and I have driven them in all sorts of situations and I do not feel in more control, have you driven a modernish auto car with a decent transmission? :tiphat:


What this comes down to is whether you feel you are enjoying your drive in your automatic equipped car the same as or more than I am enjoying my drive in my stick equipped car. This undoubtedly depends on what cars we're driving, what our past experience is, how strongly do we respond to the pleasure of such driving, etc., etc. All I can tell you is that it is very satisfying to plan exactly what gear I will be in to deal with that abruptly-arriving hill, curve, road surface, etc. as i pilot my car, master of my steed.


----------



## SixFootScowl

I would rather drive my beater 2001 Ford Ranger 5-speed manual than a hot sports car equipped with an automatic.

In fact, I'd be quite happy to have my '64 Chevy Biscayne inline six with the 3-speed column-shifted manual back (restored of course as it was rotted out and the seat mount dropped through the floor pan). I accidentally set the drivers seat on fire in that car and had to use an old couch cushion on the springs for a seat, but that is a different story for some other thread.


----------



## Krummhorn

Here in the states, back in the 60's, the automatic transmission was optional equipment and came at a hefty price to boot. 

The family Studebaker's were manual, Dad's F-150 truck was stick with a granny gear (top speed in granny gear was 5 mph), family Rambler station wagon was manual, three on the tree, and with manual overdrive. 

Engines were normally aspirated and had carburetors with manual chokes . . . when the battery died we could always push start them - three people pushing it down the street and the driver inside popping the clutch at the right moment which turned over the engine and started it. Ahh, the good ol' days. 


nowadays there are cars with a push button that don't required the turn of a key.


----------



## Dan Ante

Strange Magic said:


> What this comes down to is whether you feel you are enjoying your drive in your automatic equipped car the same as or more than I am enjoying my drive in my stick equipped car. This undoubtedly depends on what cars we're driving, what our past experience is, how strongly do we respond to the pleasure of such driving, etc., etc. All I can tell you is that it is very satisfying to plan exactly what gear I will be in to deal with that abruptly-arriving hill, curve, road surface, etc. as i pilot my car, master of my steed.


I think we are of a simular age and I won't argue against your driving enjoyment the point that I am trying to put forward is that in every day driving the driver does not have more control with a manual as against an auto. The modern auto has engine braking and you can over ride the auto and use as a manual if you want to plus sports mode alternative on most boxes you just have hydraulic drive instead of mechanical.
I well remember a motor bike I had it was my pride and joy, a Vincent Rapid, this had a crash box as did all motor bikes plus a centrifugal clutch which took a bit of practice to use, and manual ign advance, what a happy youth. 
Remember: 
Once upon a time you had to advance and retard the ign by hand, 
Do you have less control now that this is done automatically???

And heaven forbid we even have power assisted steering and braking.
Does this mean you have less control???
I argue that it does not take control away.


----------



## SixFootScowl

I would love to have and drive this. If you don't want to watch the whole video, at least watch him run through the column shift gears one time starting here.


----------



## Strange Magic

Dan, it's agreed then: you're happy; I'm happy. Let's just get out there and Drive!


----------



## Klassik

Dan Ante said:


> The modern auto has engine braking and you can over ride the auto and use as a manual if you want to plus sports mode alternative on most boxes you just have hydraulic drive instead of mechanical.


My CVT does not have a manual mode (though, believe it or not, some cars with CVTs have paddle "shifters"), but it does have a sport mode position on the shifter. Oddly enough, my butt dyno tells me that the sport mode is actually slower than the normal drive mode. It feels like it just holds the RPMs higher outside of the engine's peak torque range. I guess it makes the engine sound faster though! :lol:

In normal drive mode, the CVT operates the way you'd expect a CVT to operate when being driven normally. If you step hard on the throttle, however, it'll actually simulate shifts. I don't know if this is done for performance reasons or if it does that to keep the engine from making droning noises at high RPMs like the older CVTs, but it reacts very quickly and gets the job done. Just because things are done automatically does not mean the driver cannot influence the behavior of an automatic through proper throttle usage.



> And heaven forbid we even have power assisted steering and braking.
> Does this mean you have less control???
> I argue that it does not take control away.


It's easy to say that you don't need a particular feature until you get used to it. I didn't have a car with ABS early on. I figured that I didn't need it. I knew how to keep my brakes from locking. I eventually got a car with ABS and realized that, when operating the brake pedal properly, ABS can modulate the brakes so much quicker than I possibly could manually. I wouldn't want a car without ABS now especially here in Houston where it rains a lot. It's a great safety feature. Unfortunately, some people may use driver aids as an excuse to drive more carelessly.


----------



## EddieRUKiddingVarese




----------



## Dan Ante

Strange Magic said:


> Dan, it's agreed then: you're happy; I'm happy. Let's just get out there and Drive!


Absolutely sir................


----------



## Dan Ante

Klassik said:


> My CVT does not have a manual mode (though, believe it or not, some cars with CVTs have paddle "shifters"), but it does have a sport mode position on the shifter. Oddly enough, my butt dyno tells me that the sport mode is actually slower than the normal drive mode. It feels like it just holds the RPMs higher outside of the engine's peak torque range. I guess it makes the engine sound faster though! :lol:
> 
> In normal drive mode, the CVT operates the way you'd expect a CVT to operate when being driven normally. If you step hard on the throttle, however, it'll actually simulate shifts. I don't know if this is done for performance reasons or if it does that to keep the engine from making droning noises at high RPMs like the older CVTs, but it reacts very quickly and gets the job done. Just because things are done automatically does not mean the driver cannot influence the behavior of an automatic through proper throttle usage.
> 
> It's easy to say that you don't need a particular feature until you get used to it. I didn't have a car with ABS early on. I figured that I didn't need it. I knew how to keep my brakes from locking. I eventually got a car with ABS and realized that, when operating the brake pedal properly, ABS can modulate the brakes so much quicker than I possibly could manually. I wouldn't want a car without ABS now especially here in Houston where it rains a lot. It's a great safety feature. Unfortunately, some people may use driver aids as an excuse to drive more carelessly.


I have "Steptronic" transmission you simply move the gear lever to the left (RHD Car) and move it up or down to select a higher or lower gear it is foolproof in that if you try to move down a gear from 5 to 4 and you are already doing nearly peak revs it will not change so that you do not over rev and blow the engine. I very seldom use this mode or sports mode. It also has the normal "kickdown" that all autos have I do use this a lot to zip past trucks etc.


----------



## Guest

Taggart said:


> Never seen the point of an automatic. Fuel is too expensive here to waste on all the extra weight and mechanical uncertainty.


We are addicted to luxury European cars; the cost of fuel is something we don't worry about!! In Australia top quality Diesel is approx. $1.25 per *litre*. And there's no 'mechanical uncertainty', let me assure you! We had a family car show today; my son's fiance in her father's brand new Range Rover and my sister in her new BMW Coupe 4.something or other. And my son in his fiance's Mercedes C250 (which daddy bought for her!). Life's good!!!


----------



## EddieRUKiddingVarese

CountenanceAnglaise said:


> We are addicted to luxury European cars; the cost of fuel is something we don't worry about!! In Australia top quality Diesel is approx. $1.25 per *litre*. And there's no 'mechanical uncertainty', let me assure you! We had a family car show today; my son's fiance in her father's brand new Range Rover and my sister in her new BMW Coupe 4.something or other. And my son in his fiance's Mercedes C250 (which daddy bought for her!). Life's good!!!


Show off, I spent the weekendout driving in my Hillman Hunter Safari Wagon which was nice until some idiot started doing burnouts at the lights right behind me- so being Eddie I wound down the window (remember how to do that) and shouted obscenities at the idiot who proceeded screeming off thru the intersection in front of us sideways........ think it was a stolen car I certainly would not want to drive his car after that and this all took place in the usually quiet country city of Ballarat which does have a speed etc problem and I'm not taking about going fast


----------



## Guest

I've always loved cars and talking about cars - good ones!! And it's ironic that I've found myself surrounded by luxury vehicles in our family and soon-to-be family. The fiance's mother drives a Bentley!! (Is that even how you spell 'fiance'!?) My other sister owns a Lexus AWD, but I wouldn't have one of these!! One look at that cheap carpet (which looks like fake grass, only black) at the dealers and I said, "eeeew; absolutely no thanks". 

I've had my share of lemons over the years, including a Ford Falcon 4.1 wagon (1984) with a Borg Warner automatic gearbox which needed endless replacement! After that it was Volvo sedans, but their AWD these days are bulky, heavy and fuel-hungry. It's great to be high up off the road but it's difficult getting into the back seat of ours without a step-ladder. I wish we'd known you could have a suspension system as an optional extra which lowers the car when stationary. The Range Rover has that and its demonstration yesterday was impressive. But our car has a suspension system which lowers when travelling at high speed with the push of a button, but it's pretty difficult alighting from a car at 120kph!!!! I've not tried it yet but I imagine a couple of people would like to see me go for it!!

In an earlier post I mentioned the cars I went out with (!) in my young days but I forgot the German staff car, which was a Mercedes. I went on a blind date with one in the early 70s and, apart from choking on diesel fumes which liberally filled the cabin, I thought it was fun. Its owner, not so much!! In my youth 2 of my 3 sisters and I used to measure a boy's suitability by the car he drove!! I had one boyfriend who drove a bomb with the steering wheel which would come off when he negotiated our cul-de-sac!! And he had to get out of the car and under the bonnet while the car was going in order to change from first gear to the next. Imagine the hilarity. He was a lovely friend with a wonderful sense of humour, but my sisters shook their heads disapprovingly. Then there was the Simca Ronde ("what were you thinking???") and the ubiquitous VW beetle - a dreadful car. Then a series of Fords after that and then my husband - who had no car but he did have a house!!!! I've often thought of writing a short story about all this funny experiences. One of the aforementioned sisters is now an avowed Lefty and she drives a Ute with a van in tow!! It went over a cliff in Queensland 2 years ago with the van hooked up; fortunately they were not killed. But wouldn't you think she and her 'environmentally friendly' husband would go for a 'safe' option now? She thinks she has; they both ride bikes all through Europe, Australian, NZ and the UK.


----------



## Becca

Kudos to the person who recognizes this ... the transmission in the first car I ever drove (way before it was legal for me to do so!)


----------



## Dan Ante

I remember my first speeding tickets in NZ when I worked at a certain dealer 1st was in a Bentely next in a Rolls followed up by a Jag about 12 months later, I had to go to court for the last one and when I came out I found I had collected a parking ticket.

*@Becca* the pic says Daimler Fifteen........


----------



## Becca

Dan Ante said:


> I remember my first speeding tickets in NZ when I worked at a certain dealer 1st was in a Bentely next in a Rolls followed up by a Jag about 12 months later, I had to go to court for the last one and when I came out I found I had collected a parking ticket.
> 
> *@Becca* the pic says Daimler Fifteen........


Yes ... but the transmission, which is what the OP is about.


----------



## Becca

Dan Ante said:


> I remember my first speeding tickets in NZ when I worked at a certain dealer 1st was in a Bentely next in a Rolls followed up by a Jag about 12 months later, I had to go to court for the last one and when I came out I found I had collected a parking ticket.
> 
> *@Becca* the pic says Daimler Fifteen........


When I was about to go to University, my father took me to a used car dealer to get my first car. He used one of his company cars ... a 1936 Rolls Royce Towncar, the type with the partition between the driver and the rest. Needless to say we got a lot of attention when we arrived at the dealer's lot. How come he had a Rolls as a company car ... well actually he had 3 ... a '35, '36 & '37 ... the guy who owned the company liked to collect vintage cars!


----------



## Dan Ante

Becca said:


> Yes ... but the transmission, which is what the OP is about.


Oh OK It looks like a pre selector I have never driven one of those hmmmm you must be very very old almost ancient perhaps


----------



## Guest

Becca said:


> When I was about to go to University, my father took me to a used car dealer to get my first car. He used one of his company cars ... a 1936 Rolls Royce Towncar, the type with the partition between the driver and the rest. Needless to say we got a lot of attention when we arrived at the dealer's lot. How come he had a Rolls as a company car ... well actually he had 3 ... a '35, '36 & '37 ... the guy who owned the company liked to collect vintage cars!


In the 1970s I worked in television for the Australian Broadcasting Corporation. We had early starts as I was in film production and we used taxis to be ferried to and from. This particular week there was a train strike in Sydney and all the taxis were occupied so the ABC went to a hire-car company and they sent up a Rolls Royce to pick me up. We lived 25km out of the city and in a little street of four houses. They all came outside when they saw the Rolls Royce, with a driver wearing gloves! I was in jeans and a T-shirt for a filming assignment and I asked if the driver would take my husband into the city to his office. How we both laughed at the two of us sitting in the RR!! I joked to the driver, "send a Mercedes tomorrow please". That's exactly what happened!!! What outrageous profligacy from the national broadcaster, on the public teat and not caring about it for a second!!!


----------



## EddieRUKiddingVarese

I was hoping it was a Morgan and the fan belt shrunk and got shorten


----------



## hpowders

Klassik said:


> Keep in mind that my commute is current ~2.5 hours due to road closures caused by the Houston flooding. ~2.5 hours each way! Much of it is in heavy traffic. It won't be nearly this bad forever (hopefully), but I'm sticking with the ease of an automatic.


Manual gives me a lot of control. I'm very happy with manual.


----------



## Dan Ante

hpowders said:


> Manual gives me a lot of control


Such as??? ......


----------



## hpowders

Dan Ante said:


> Such as??? ......


Always comes through for me in the clutch.

If I had a male son, instead of three neutered dogs, I would name him Manual.

Pardon me while I shift to a more comfortable position.


----------



## SixFootScowl

> Originally Posted by hpowders View Post
> Manual gives me a lot of control





Dan Ante said:


> Such as??? ......


Total control instead of pseudo control through electronics.

Today I was talking to a guy who has a 2012 Mustang. I asked if he has a manual and he said it is an automatic. I asked him why not a manual and he said the automatic shifts faster and is easier in bumper-to-bumper traffic. Well, it is clear that he and I see things differently. I don't really care if the automatic shifts faster, i am in it for the fun factor. And I will deal with bumper to bumper traffic. It is not that bad. Actually it gives you plenty of opportunity to play with the clutch vs just straighout out freeway cruising.


----------



## Strange Magic

^^^^"Total Control" is the term indeed. I often find it useful to shift from 3rd directly into 5th with my manual, as road/traffic conditions warrant. And like Florestan, I am in it for the fun (and mastery) factor. I know how to do it, and I do it well .


----------



## georgedelorean

After initially commenting on this topic, I didn't expect it to get rolling as it has. It's fascinating how people here are so friendly and open to talk about stuff like this. Another reason why I like it here.


----------



## Dan Ante

It is strange how some people think they are in control......of the Car or the marriage or indeed life itself, as a wise man once said man makes plans and God laughs.


----------



## Strange Magic

I am in control of my car. The other person???.... Maybe texting or otherwise impaired. Keeping a substantial distance behind the car ahead, and watching also what the car ahead of the car ahead is doing, is a factor. Mirror use also. Situational awareness: part of the fun of driving. We do the best we can.


----------



## SixFootScowl

It also goes beyond a matter of controlling the gears. I often thought, what if I had to have an automatic? I could have a full manual valve body installed in the transmission. Then there would be no choice to drive it automatically. However, that proposition would get tiresome fast (as did paddle shifters). There is little joy to shifting gears without working the clutch. I think, perhaps, the clutch part is the greater component of driving a traditional manual transmission vehicle. The clutch, especially, makes it so you become a part of the machine.

As for control, I am in control of my vehicle as long as I am in control of it. Either manual or automatic, if an ice road sends me into a spin, or another driver crashes into it, I temporarily lose control.


----------



## EddieRUKiddingVarese

In my manual car - which I would call Manuel(a hand built 57 Morgan from Florence- cause she has the machine), I would always play this tune while I was in full manual control... Oh and I almost forgot, I would take good care of the fan belt too!


----------



## hpowders

Klassik said:


> It should be noted that many sports car manufacturers, like Ferrari, are not even offering manual transmissions on their latest models. Instead, they have dual-clutch automated transmissions. These can be shifted with paddles.
> 
> http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2016/10/ferrari-officially-abandons-manual-gearbox/


I had a VW GTI with dual-clutch. It shifted great in normal driving, faster than a human could do, but stop and go on the highway was jerky. Now I have a 228i coupe with ZF 8 speed automatic, which I don't like as well as the VW dual-clutch, but in stop and go, no contest-no jerking with the ZF.


----------



## Klassik

hpowders said:


> I had a VW GTI with dual-clutch. It shifted great in normal driving, faster than a human could do, but stop and go on the highway was jerky. Now I have a 228i coupe with ZF 8 speed automatic, which I don't like as well as the VW dual-clutch, but in stop and go, no contest-no jerking with the ZF.


Jerkiness is a common complaint with dual-clutch transmissions (and, oddly enough, a common complaint against fans of certain German opera composers ). There are many frustrated Ford Focus and Acura owners who are unhappy with their dual-clutch transmissions due to the jerkiness. They do shift quickly (quicker than a human), but I think many others might prefer the smoothness of a traditional automatic or a CVT. Dual-clutch transmissions certainly serve a useful role in performance cars, but they might not (yet) be ideal for most cars where comfort is expected.


----------



## hpowders

Klassik said:


> Jerkiness is a common complaint with dual-clutch transmissions (and, oddly enough, a common complaint against fans of certain German opera composers ). There are many frustrated Ford Focus and Acura owners who are unhappy with their dual-clutch transmissions due to the jerkiness. They do shift quickly (quicker than a human), but I think many others might prefer the smoothness of a traditional automatic or a CVT. Dual-clutch transmissions certainly serve a useful role in performance cars, but they might not (yet) be ideal for most cars where comfort is expected.


I agree with you. I read CVT transmissions have a "rubber band" effect. I've never driven a car with a CVT transmission. Can you explain what that effect is like on shifting?


----------



## Klassik

hpowders said:


> I agree with you. I read CVT transmissions have a "rubber band" effect. I've never driven a car with a CVT transmission. Can you explain what that effect is like on shifting?


There is no shifting sensation with a CVT, but some CVTs do simulate shift points (mine only simulates shift points when being accelerated hard). I have driven some older CVTs though where the transmission will hold the RPMs high when accelerating (since it does not shift). This can cause the engine to drone. The feeling is worse on cars with unrefined engines or low torque. On mine, it really does not do that since it'll simulate a shift point if the RPMs get too high.

I think it takes some drivers a while to adjust to the fact that most CVTs will not shift/simulate a shift point. For me, however, there was no adjustment period even with the older style CVTs. Although CVTs will have an odd feeling every now and then, they are very smooth and make for a pleasant driving experience most of the time.


----------



## hpowders

Klassik said:


> There is no shifting sensation with a CVT, but some CVTs do simulate shift points (mine only simulates shift points when being accelerated hard). I have driven some older CVTs though where the transmission will hold the RPMs high when accelerating (since it does not shift). This can cause the engine to drone. The feeling is worse on cars with unrefined engines or low torque. On mine, it really does not do that since it'll simulate a shift point if the RPMs get too high.
> 
> I think it takes some drivers a while to adjust to the fact that most CVTs will not shift/simulate a shift point. For me, however, there was no adjustment period even with the older style CVTs. Although CVTs will have an odd feeling every now and then, they are very smooth and make for a pleasant driving experience most of the time.


The new 2017 Honda CRV got good reviews, but it was mentioned that under hard acceleration, the engine got very loud. It only comes with CVT.

Thanks for explaining it.


----------



## EddieRUKiddingVarese

hpowders said:


> The new 2017 Honda CRV got good reviews, but it was mentioned that under hard acceleration, the engine got very loud. It only comes with CVT.
> 
> Thanks for explaining it.


I'll stick with my manual Morgan called Manuel


----------



## Guest

EddieRUKiddingVarese said:


> I'll stick with my manual Morgan called Manuel


What a thoroughly pleasant individual you always are, EddieRUKiddingVarese!! (I was just laughing with my husband at breakfast at your username!)


----------



## Dan Ante

EddieRUKiddingVarese said:


> I'll stick with my manual Morgan called Manuel


So that's what you look like Eddie, for heavens sake man get a shave and while you are at it get rid of that ridiculous moustache...mumble grumble fumble stumble,/.


----------



## EddieRUKiddingVarese

^I'm so glad your liking it so much


----------



## Dan Ante

I tried to 'like' your post but some one has pinched the button...


----------



## EddieRUKiddingVarese

thanks, I noticed we are missing something


----------



## hpowders

I didn't notice because I'm very hard to please. I don't like anything.


----------



## EddieRUKiddingVarese

.......Not even Wagner .................


----------



## Dan Ante

EddieRUKiddingVarese said:


> .......Not even Wagner .................


Join the club :lol:


----------



## SixFootScowl

hpowders said:


> i didn't notice because i'm very hard to please. I don't like anything.


_____________________like!


----------



## SixFootScowl

eddierukiddingvarese said:


> .......not even wagner .................


______________________like!


----------



## Strange Magic

Dan Ante said:


> So that's what you look like Eddie, for heavens sake man get a shave and while you are at it get rid of that ridiculous moustache...mumble grumble fumble stumble,/.


I think Eddie's appearance is fawlty.


----------



## EddieRUKiddingVarese

Yeah, thats me on top of a tower serving drinks to hpowders


----------



## Dan Ante

Strange Magic said:


> I think Eddie's appearance is fawlty.


You noticed, I hope he doesn't start thrashing his car with a small branch


----------



## EddieRUKiddingVarese

No, that's the other one


----------



## hpowders

Dan Ante said:


> Join the club :lol:


Where? How? How much? Bitcoin?


----------



## hpowders

EddieRUKiddingVarese said:


> Yeah, thats me on top of a tower serving drinks to hpowders


Please put the iPad down and get me my Beefeaters. Obviously multi-tasking isn't your thing. I'll never come to this watering hole ever again!









These dudes all drive manuals.


----------



## hpowders

Florestan said:


> _____________________like!


I prefer this. Easy to do. Cost efficient for the management.


----------



## hpowders

Speaking of "manual", I am manually attempting to restore the "top posters on TC" listing.

Using my formula, I come out on top. I ran it through my IBM mainframe three times. Same result.

This formula eliminates the fluff posts.


----------

