# Ralph Vaughan Williams



## Bach

A composer who truly exalts the beauty of the earth. The magnificence of the city (A London Symphony) to the vast inspiration of ancient landscapes (Symphony No. 3 'Pastoral', Symphony No. 5)

Anyone who thinks Elgar is the best English composer obviously hasn't heard any Vaughan-Williams - The definition of beauty in music. Elgar sounds like old ladies music in comparison.


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## Elgarian

I agree entirely about the magnificence of RVW, though if you really think Elgar sounds like 'old ladies' music' by comparison, then I wonder if you've listened to his wildly beautiful _Introduction and Allegro for Strings_, the cello concerto, the string quartet, the piano quintet, the violin sonata, _Sea Pictures_, and my goodness, the most soul-wrenching, tragically inspiring, and most unforgivably neglected piece of music I know - _The Spirit of England_.

However, back to RVW, who is indeed the prime mover when it comes to the inspiration of ancient landscapes. I get a bit worried about the bleakness in some of his music though, which sometimes seems to verge on the nihilistic. This doesn't really come through so much in the 2nd, 3rd and 5th symphonies (which you pick out from the others), but these days I tend to find the 4th and the 6th, for instance, a bit too bleak for comfort. However, I've just bought the Boult box set of the symphonies, so that'll give me an incentive to revisit them all again.

In terms of the evocation of 'ancient landscape', though, the first RVW piece that springs to mind is the _Fantasia on a Theme by Thomas Tallis_. The only piece I could bear to compare with that in terms of sheer English deep-rooted landscapeness is (old ladies permitting, of course) Elgar's _Introduction and Allegro for Strings._


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## zigzag

Re RVW, bleakness and nihilism: I heard Tony Palmer being interviewed on radio recently about his documentary, "O thou transcendent". *Here's* some background info reprinted on the RVW Society website.


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## Elgarian

zigzag said:


> Re RVW, bleakness and nihilism: I heard Tony Palmer being interviewed on radio recently about his documentary, "O thou transcendent".


I've seen the Tony Palmer documentary. To be honest, I think he over-eggs the pudding a bit. He pushes the pendulum right over to the 'bleak and despairing' side, with so many terrible and horrific war images (not all of them contemporary with VW) as to make his film quite distressing to watch. I suspect the truth lies somewhere in between these extremes. Like most of us, RVW had his ups and downs, and I think that's reflected in the music. In other words, he isn't the mystic pastoralist of the 5th symphony, nor the bleak pessimist of the 6th, but both of those, and more.


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## Weston

Vaughan-Williams is probably my favorite 20th century composer. I love the Tallis Fantasia.

Weirdly I also love the Sinfonia Antartica. That music sounds COLD! There is something about a lone soprano just voicing a wordless theme in the background, theremin style, that I have always found compelling. Many other works less talked about are comforting to me because of their very Englishness for lack of a better word (even though I am an American). The tuba and oboe concertos, In the Fen Country, the English Folk Suite, and the Partita for double string orchestra all fit in this latter category for me. I am not sensing much of the aforementioned bleakness to be honest.

Now - if only someone could explain to an American how "Ralph" rhymes with "waif."


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## Bach

I don't know The Spirit of England but all the other pieces I'm reasonably familiar with. I'm seeing the Sea Pictures at the Proms on the 4th!

I stand by RVW composing the most beautiful English music whilst Elgar composed some pleasant English music and Tippett composed some clever English music.


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## Elgarian

Weston said:


> I am not sensing much of the aforementioned bleakness to be honest.


I didn't get the bleakness either, until I listened to the 4th and 6th symphonies. Having then picked it up, as it were, I found I started to hear echoes of it in the other works. The 3rd symphony, for instance, no longer seems quite the innocent pastoral that I thought it was was when I first heard it many years ago. In the second movement there's a sort of 'last post' feeling, as if the beauty of the land now can't be contemplated without remembering the war dead. And the soprano's singing in the 3rd symphony, which once I thought was unearthly and mystical (as in the _Sinfonia Antarctica_, that both you and I enjoy being chilled by), now sounds more like a lament. I suppose what this amounts to is that I think RVW's music is richer, and darker, and even more profound than I thought it was, say 30 years ago.


> Now - if only someone could explain to an American how "Ralph" rhymes with "waif."


Well, I'm English, and I was hoping someone could explain it to _me_ ...

*@Bach*


> I stand by RVW composing the most beautiful English music whilst Elgar composed some pleasant English music


I'm wholeheartedly in agreement with your admiration of RVW (though I'd say there was more than just beauty to be discovered in his work), but why not let the jury stay out on Elgar, for now? It sounds to me as if something just hasn't clicked in that department, yet. I understand that he only sounds 'pleasant' to you, but honestly, there is enormous depth there to be uncovered. If at some stage (now may not be the time) you want to try _The Spirit of England_, then may I recommend the Alexander Gibson version with Teresa Cahill as soloist? (For me, Gibson & Cahill seem to express the profound meaning of the work in a way that the other two available versions don't.) It won't break the bank (though I think you won't like the _Coronation Ode _which comes along as part of the package), which is just as well, since the chances of hearing it performed in concert are surely slim:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Elgar-Choral-Works/dp/B000000A9N/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1220213548&sr=1-1


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## bexterlee

I'm a RVW fan of the highest order.

In fact I'm on a mission to get the London Symphony Orchestra recording conducted by Richard Hickox the Golden Disc award at this year's Gramophone Awards. It's a worthy winner but it get the recognition it deserves it needs all our votes, as the final decision is made by the public. If you have minute maybe you would follow the link and place your vote!


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## Elgarian

bexterlee said:


> In fact I'm on a mission to get the London Symphony Orchestra recording conducted by Richard Hickox the Golden Disc award at this year's Gramophone Awards. It's a worthy winner but it get the recognition it deserves it needs all our votes, as the final decision is made by the public. If you have minute maybe you would follow the link and place your vote!


I placed my vote for the Hickox London Symphony, and had no difficulty deciding, since it was the only one of the five available choices that I know!


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## Lark Ascending

Vaughan Williams is the reason I am a fan of classical music. My favourite pieces are The Lark Ascending, Norfolk Rhapsody No 1 and the Pastoral Symphony.


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## Elgarian

What hasn't been mentioned yet (and I'm surprised at myself for not doing so) is his Phantasy Quintet, not only because it's so utterly and unmistakably Vaughan Williams, but because the third movement is surely one of the loveliest, gentlest, most pastoral, and most deliciously melodic 3 minutes' worth of music that I know.


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## ChamberNut

Elgarian said:


> What hasn't been mentioned yet (and I'm surprised at myself for not doing so) is his *Phantasy Quintet*, not only because it's so utterly and unmistakably Vaughan Williams, but because the third movement is surely one of the loveliest, gentlest, most pastoral, and most deliciously melodic 3 minutes' worth of music that I know.


Indeed it is Elgarian. I love the string quartets as well, especially SQ # 2.

I have the Maggini Quartet/Naxos recording.


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## Elgarian

ChamberNut said:


> I have the Maggini Quartet/Naxos recording.


Yes, that's the version I have, too - and what an amazing bargain it is. As you say, the quartets are very fine, but they're more rugged, with a harder edge, and so require more concentrated commitment, whereas the phantasy quintet would win the heart of a listener straight away, I think. Well, so it is for me, at any rate.


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## themusicismymaster

Best English composer?Purcell,anyone?But RVW is indeed among the best.


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## Weston

themusicismymaster said:


> Best English composer?Purcell,anyone?But RVW is indeed among the best.


John Dowland gets my vote for best English composer with Vaughan-Williams or Holst running a close second -- and those only because I must consider Handel German.

Purcell? Well I love his Funeral Music for Queen Mary, but I can't honestly say I could pick his style out if included in a half hour of other baroque composers.

Elgar I'm going to need help in getting into I'm afraid. I do not know where to begin, as I seem to be unable to focus on the Enigma Variations.


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## Elgarian

Weston said:


> Elgar I'm going to need help in getting into I'm afraid. I do not know where to begin, as I seem to be unable to focus on the Enigma Variations.


I'm not sure exactly why, but I've always mentally linked Elgar's _Introduction and Allegro for Strings_ with RVW's _Tallis Fantasia_. You could never mistake one for the other, but they do seem to share a similar wild wind-blown English (veering towards the mystical) 'rawness'. If you're already an RVW fan, then you might find the _Introduction and Allegro_ to be an easier way into Elgar than the_ Enigma Variations_.


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## themusicismymaster

My personal favourite of Elgar's is the cello concerto.

The best English composers in MY humble opinion are as followsurcell,followed by Elgar,followed by Holst,followed by RVW,*It's all a matter of taste.*


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## Kuhlau

I can't believe that for someone like me who adores British classical music, I came to Vaughan Williams' symphonies only this year. It began with the sublime Fifth (which, as an aside, is given possibly its finest performance on record by the late, great Bryden Thomson with the LSO on Chandos): a symphony which now ranks among the most beautiful I've heard in my 17 years of listening to classical music.

As for the Fantasia on a Theme by Thomas Tallis, this must be one of the very greatest works ever written for strings by any composer from any country. I have a happy memory of the first time my wife heard it performed live. It was at the Royal Albert Hall in London during the 2005 BBC Proms season. She was so spellbound by it that it's since become a work which has special significance for our relationship.

FK


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## Weston

Kuhlau said:


> As for the Fantasia on a Theme by Thomas Tallis, this must be one of the very greatest works ever written for strings by any composer from any country. I have a happy memory of the first time my wife heard it performed live. It was at the Royal Albert Hall in London during the 2005 BBC Proms season. She was so spellbound by it that it's since become a work which has special significance for our relationship.
> 
> FK


You too? I feel vindicated. In another thread somewhere (?) I described a very similar experience of my own with the Tallis Fantasia. It conveys to me that same ongoing sense of wonder one feels when in the throes of a beautiful relationship.


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## Kuhlau

I first heard the Tallis Fantasia in 1997, on the day that Princess Diana of Wales was killed. A national, commercial radio station (Classic FM) was playing only sombre music as a tribute, and it was quite late in the evening. Listening to the work, I had a small epiphany. I realised that classical music was an essential part of my life. From pretty much that moment on, I've listened to very little else.

Incidentally, one of the very best recordings of this work that I've heard - and I've heard many - is Sir Andrew Davis' with the BBC Symphony Orchestra on Teldec. It's bettered only by his later recording at Gloucestershire Cathedral (where the work was premiered), but this isn't commercially available. When you hear this latter version, you fully appreciate why Vaughan Williams wrote it for the architectural spaces within the cathedral.

FK


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## Ciel_Rouge

I found a magnificent rendition of Sinfonia Antarctica (No. 7).






However, it is on vinyl and I am wondering if it is available on a CD as well. And if not, what performances would you recommend?


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## Elgarian

Ciel_Rouge said:


> However, it is on vinyl and I am wondering if it is available on a CD as well.


You're in luck! It's on a 2CD EMI Classics set (along with other Barbirolli/RVW/Elgar recordings from that period (in Mono I presume). It's still in print, and available from Amazon uk here:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Barbirolli-Conducts-Elgar-Vaughan-Williams/dp/B000023YEK/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1226443694&sr=1-1


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## LindenLea

It will come as no surprise looking at my username and avatar to learn that Ralph Vaughan Williams is my favourite composer of all. I have a burning passion for British music, Elgar, Bax, Stamford, Britten, Walton, Holst, Parry, Finzi, Delius, Howells, many others. But for me none of these great men compares with the marvellous RVW. 

I think the one thing which places him as a truly unique figure in musical terms, and perhaps the most prominent aspect of Vaughan William's compositional style, is his use of English folk-song. He was a passionate collector and arranger of folk-songs, and although he rarely used folk-songs directly in his orchestral compositions, his melodies and harmonies often betray the influence of extensive folk-song study. 

Somebody once said rather unkindly (I think it may have been Bernard Levin, or at least somebody equally arrogant and obnoxious) that RVW's music is 'cow-pat music', or music for sitting in the English countryside staring over a hedge into a field of cow-pats, or something equally ignorant. Well to me that is the equivalent of describing Constable's or Gainsborough's paintings a 'cow pat art' ... or Capability Browns gardens and estates as 'cow pat landscape architecture' and it entirely misses the point. The fact that much of RVW's music transports its listeners into some rural idyllic setting is the entire point of it's existence, and RVW knew that all too well.

Vaughan William's style comes across to me as really a synthesis of Brahmsian discipline, Ravelian texture and orchestral colour, and English folk-song elements. But despite all these seemingly disparate influences, his music is totally unique. He was a master of all genres, orchestral, opera, choral, ballet, concerto, vocal, organ, even film scores, every genre in fact with the possible exception of chamber music, and uniquely for his day he was able to write in a rich post-Romantic vein as well as create intricate symphonic structures to equal anything produced by the Modernists in terms of their complexity (such as the Fourth, Fifth, and Sixth symphonies). Plus, his work to my ears represents something rarely found in 20th century art - music that appeals at both an emotional and also at an intellectual level.

His greatest works? Well the 9 symphonies for me stand as his greatest achievements, he was the pre-eminent British symphonist that we have ever had. I could not very easily name my one favourite RVW work anymore than I can easily chose which dessert to have when a trolley loaded with cream cakes comes to my table at a restaurant!! Though there is I imagine a special place in the heart of all lovers of RVW for the Tallis Fantasia, the Lark Ascending, the Songs of Travel, the Serenade to Music, Greensleeves, and of course ‘Linden Lea’!!


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## Weston

Today at work I listened to the Romance for harmonica, strings & piano in D flat major. This piece was way under my radar because it's rarely mentioned. Allmusic.com doesn't have any info for it other than to say it's included on four albums. 

The piece made me sit up and take notice, probably because of the unusual instrument combination. If I had heard it without knowing, I probably would have guess RVW due to the string sonorities. It's all there - a great piece. It elevated my mood. 

I found myself wondering how one decides to write for harmonica. Did he just know a virtuoso harmonica player? The liner notes probably explain, but the Cd is buried somewhere.


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## Guest

Weston said:


> Now - if only someone could explain to an American how "Ralph" rhymes with "waif."


It was probably a typo 'Raiph' in fact he is still called Raif by some.

I to am an admirer of RWV, one of our (NZ) better composers 'Douglas Lilburn' studied under RVW and his style is very similar.


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## LindenLea

Weston said:


> Today at work I listened to the Romance for harmonica, strings & piano in D flat major. This piece was way under my radar because it's rarely mentioned. Allmusic.com doesn't have any info for it other than to say it's included on four albums.
> 
> The piece made me sit up and take notice, probably because of the unusual instrument combination. If I had heard it without knowing, I probably would have guess RVW due to the string sonorities. It's all there - a great piece. It elevated my mood.
> 
> I found myself wondering how one decides to write for harmonica. Did he just know a virtuoso harmonica player? The liner notes probably explain, but the Cd is buried somewhere.


Yes, this is a wonderful RVW curiosity and another example of how no musical/compositional challenge ever phased him. He also a few years later wrote a concerto for orchestra and bass tuba. In fact in the last decade of his life he took to experimenting with what could well be considered as "unusual" instruments; in the 7th, 8th and 9th symphonies he included a wind machine, tuned gongs, and a flugelhorn respectively.

But the Romance for harmonica, strings and piano in D flat major was actually a gift for the American expatriot Larry Adler. Adler was an extaordinary musician, there is (apparently) an arrangement he did for harmonica and orchestra of Ravel's 'Bolero', though I won't believe it until I've actually heard it!! But Malcolm Arnold and Darius Milhaud also composed works specifically for Adler. Adler did I think record the RVW romance, though the recording I have is by Tommy Reilly with the Academy of St. Martin's in the Fields under Neville Marriner (Chandos CHAN6545)


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## Habib

*RVW Partita for double string orchestra*

Has anyone heard Vaughan Williams' Partita for Double String Orchestra? I think its one of his most underrated works. As a string orchestra work, it defininitely ranks alongside Britten's Variations on a Theme of Frank Bridge. It includes a tribute to the marching bands of old England (the movement "Homage to Henry Hall"). I have it on a Belart disc which also has the London Symphony, a reissue of Adrian Boult originally recorded in the 50's.

I also have to mention the Epilogue, final movement of Symphony No. 6. It is one of the great pieces of the C20th. The eery sounds never rise above pianissimo, so you have to turn your system right up to listen to it. I have it on another Belart/Boult recording which also contains Symphony No. 4 (these are probably no longer available, at least not in Australia). A bonus track on this disc is a speech by the composer himself, who was present during the recording session.


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## jamzky

Hi Habib, yes RVW's string writing is so layered I really like that. Symphony no. 6 is underrated, I agree. It is one of the great 6's. I never adored Beethoven's Pastoral but Mahler and Sibelius 6 are also brilliant. I wonder does anyone recommend a great recording of RVW's Pastoral, No. 3 ? I have the Boult but I wanted a more recent recording.


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## Habib

jamzky said:


> I wonder does anyone recommend a great recording of RVW's Pastoral, No. 3 ? I have the Boult but I wanted a more recent recording.


Naxos has all his symphonies available seperately and probably as a set also.


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## PostMinimalist

Habib said:


> Has anyone heard Vaughan Williams' Partita for Double String Orchestra? I think its one of his most underrated works. As a string orchestra work, it defininitely ranks alongside Britten's Variations on a Theme of Frank Bridge. It includes a tribute to the marching bands of old England (the movement "Homage to Henry Hall"). I have it on a Belart disc which also has the London Symphony, a reissue of Adrian Boult originally recorded in the 50's.


Yes it's a marvelous work but I don't tink it's really up there with the 'Bridge Variations'.
I have it on a more recent recording with the Liverpool Philharmonic and Vernon Handley.

Of course I love RVW and his musical offspring, the most underrated of which must be Herbert Howells.

I think Elgarian's connection between 'Tallis Fantasy' and Elgar's 'I&A' is to be found in the stroies surrounding Howells's 'epiphany at the 1910 Glousceter Three choirs festival where both pieces were (I think) premiered. Howells is said to have wandered the streets till dawn in a daze with his friend Ivor Gurney after hearing this performance. 
Ring any bells?


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## Elgarian

post-minimalist said:


> I think Elgarian's connection between 'Tallis Fantasy' and Elgar's 'I&A' is to be found in the stroies surrounding Howells's 'epiphany at the 1910 Glousceter Three choirs festival where both pieces were (I think) premiered. Howells is said to have wandered the streets till dawn in a daze with his friend Ivor Gurney after hearing this performance.
> Ring any bells?


That's an interesting story, which I didn't know, but which is very believable. Back in the days of vinyl LPs, one of my very first LP purchases was a recording of the _Enigma Variations_ with the _Tallis Fantasia_ tagged on at the end, and they complemented each other wonderfully well, when listened to in sequence. When I discovered the _Intro & Allegro_ soon afterwards, it clicked immediately into place alongside the _Tallis F_ as Elgar's equivalent, deep-rooted expression of English pastoralism, and I've never been able to dissociate them ever since (not that I'd want to).


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## PostMinimalist

Of original score pages of The Tallis Fantasy, Hubert Foss wrote the following:

"They hold the faith of England, in its soil and its tradition, firmly believed yet expressed in no articled details. There is a quite ecstasy, then along side of it comes a kind of blind persistence, a faithful pigrimage towards the unseen light"

Nice one Hube!


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## PostMinimalist

For probably the best recorded performance of 'I&A' and 'Tallis' on one CD try to find - 'Sir John Barbirolli Conducts English String Music"


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## Elgarian

post-minimalist said:


> Of original score pages of The Tallis Fantasy, Hubert Foss wrote the following:
> 
> "They hold the faith of England, in its soil and its tradition, firmly believed yet expressed in no articled details. There is a quite ecstasy, then along side of it comes a kind of blind persistence, a faithful pigrimage towards the unseen light"


I didn't know this either, so thank you. It comes very, very close to describing that-which-cannot-be-described.


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## Weston

post-minimalist said:


> Of course I love RVW and his musical offspring, the most underrated of which must be Herbert Howells.


I never knew Howells was a student of Vaughan-Williams style. That explains why I find his _Penguinski_ so riveting. I can't even find the work mentioned in the allmusic listings, but it's on a Chandos Cd along with two piano concertos conducted by Richard Hickox - the only Cd I have of Howell's music. I hope to remedy that soon. It's a terrific CD.


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## PostMinimalist

Isn't that a great CD! Howard Shelly plays brilliantly on both concertos. I love these two pieces but one parallel which has escaped notice until now in that between the Cm concerto and the Puccini opera 'Edgar'. There is so much in common orchestrally between these two works that it is hard to assume Howells had no knowledge of the Puccini score. Since you have the concerto CD it remains for you to find a 'Highlights from Edgar' type CD and make a comparison. A good second Howells CD to get is also Chandos with Richard Hickox (who died in November) conducting the Music for Strings, pure magic if you ask me, and a fitting legacy for Hickox!
FC


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## JTech82

I like some of his works. They're really beautiful, but I don't like his symphonies to well. I need to give him another shot, because "The Lark Ascending," "Oboe Concerto," "Five Variants of Dives And Lazarus" are all beautiful works, but I will just have to give his symphonies another listen.

I just bought the Adrian Boult box set on EMI. I look forward to hearing it. 8 discs....wow!


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## Elgarian

JTech82 said:


> I just bought the Adrian Boult box set on EMI. I look forward to hearing it.


That's another great box you've bought, there. With that and the Barbirolli/Elgar box, rainy days won't be a problem for you for some time to come.

May I recommend starting with the _5th_ symphony? It's more accessible than the others, I think, and is full of the kind of Vaughan-Williams-pastoral flavour that you like already.


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## Elgarian

*Vaughan Williams and Robin Hood*

I've been revisiting my childhood, watching the old black and white episodes of The Adventures of Robin Hood, with Richard Greene. The most obvious tune associated with this is the famous Da-dum-di-diddle-da-dum-dah-daaah, played at the beginning while an arrow flies from Robin's bow into a tree. But also there's a lot of use of background music, much of which seems broadly derivative from that. I noticed yesterday though, that one particular sequence of four notes seemed curiously familiar, generating a kind of 'English pastoral' mood. I'm not a musician, but perhaps my crude attempt to give these four notes will be good enough:










They are, I believe, the same notes that form part of a recurring sequence in the first movement of Vaughan Williams's 5th symphony. Am I right? I doubt if there was any actual plagiarism - rather, that there's something about that sequence that instantly makes us think about English woodland and folk tale - and I expect RVW and the Robin Hood musicians picked it up independently. I suppose so, at any rate.

There you are: a snippet of no importance, except as a bit of flimsy chat.


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## Guest

*Elgarian,* Congratulations on your inclusion of some musical notation, ever since I joined this forum I have asked for this kind of thing to be included in posts as a means of explaining things, nothing too complicated as to be beyond the understanding of most of us, I had given up hope, well done.


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## Elgarian

Andante said:


> *Elgarian,* Congratulations on your inclusion of some musical notation, ever since I joined this forum I have asked for this kind of thing to be included in posts as a means of explaining things, nothing too complicated as to be beyond the understanding of most of us, I had given up hope, well done.


Delighted to satisfy that desire - there was no fear of my producing anything complicated: I'm a bungling incompetent when it comes to musical notation, and those four notes were painfully hacked out only with the assistance of Anvil Studio.


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## Eftos

the lark ascending leaves me clueless: where should i go from here?
this is peak konsonant composing. how on earth will you 'improve' this without ruining it?


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## Elgarian

Eftos said:


> the lark ascending leaves me clueless: where should i go from here?
> this is peak konsonant composing. how on earth will you 'improve' this without ruining it?


I'm not sure I fully understand your post, I'm afraid. When you say _The Lark Ascending_ leaves you clueless, do you mean that you don't know what to try next? If so, then try _Fantasia on a Theme of Thomas Tallis_, which is one of his greatest short works. Well, one of his greatest works of any size, I think.



> this is peak konsonant composing. how on earth will you 'improve' this without ruining it?


I'm not sure I understand this either, but I think you mean 'how can any music be better than this?' If that's what you mean, then perhaps, in its way, it can't. But I think we can get music as good - but different. The _Thomas Tallis Fantasia_ is one example.


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## JTech82

Elgarian said:


> That's another great box you've bought, there. With that and the Barbirolli/Elgar box, rainy days won't be a problem for you for some time to come.
> 
> May I recommend starting with the _5th_ symphony? It's more accessible than the others, I think, and is full of the kind of Vaughan-Williams-pastoral flavour that you like already.


Yeah, thanks Elgarian. You know what? I like this whole box set. I think everything is really good. I have not been disappointed yet. By the way, the 5th Symphony was fantastic, but I love his London Symphony as well.

The more I listen to Vaughan Williams the more I appreciate how great he truly was. A very remarkable composer.

I haven't listened to the Elgar yet, but I KNOW it's good, because I love Elgar. John Barbirolli is just the icing on the cake.


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## Elgarian

JTech82 said:


> Yeah, thanks Elgarian. You know what? I like this whole box set. I think everything is really good. I have not been disappointed yet. By the way, the 5th Symphony was fantastic, but I love his London Symphony as well.


I think that Boult box is tremendous - I don't know whether a 'real musician' would agree with me that Boult is the greatest interpreter of Vaughan Williams, but for me, he is. He seems to get to the spiritual heart of the music. (The Haitink box set, for instance, though critically acclaimed, seems to me to miss something in its character which I can't define, but which seems essential.) I agree with you that the London symphony is also very great, and I'm also very fond of the Third symphony. Check out the recent recording by Richard Hickox of the original version of the London, if you haven't done so already:










It's available, with a lot more info about it, here.


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## PostMinimalist

A gyreat CD! Did you notice the Richard Hickox obituary I posted a few weeks ago?
A great CD but a great loss.
FC


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## Elgarian

post-minimalist said:


> A gyreat CD! Did you notice the Richard Hickox obituary I posted a few weeks ago?
> A great CD but a great loss.
> FC


Not sure how or why, but I missed your obituary, Fergus, I'm sorry to say. I'll seek it out. I agree completely about the shocking loss.


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## PostMinimalist

Here's the thread.
http://www.talkclassical.com/4412-richard-hickox-great-loss.html
Cheers
F


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## Elgarian

Thanks Fergus, and thanks for starting that thread, too. I've added a note to it.


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## JTech82

Elgarian said:


> I think that Boult box is tremendous - I don't know whether a 'real musician' would agree with me that Boult is the greatest interpreter of Vaughan Williams, but for me, he is. He seems to get to the spiritual heart of the music. (The Haitink box set, for instance, though critically acclaimed, seems to me to miss something in its character which I can't define, but which seems essential.) I agree with you that the London symphony is also very great, and I'm also very fond of the Third symphony. Check out the recent recording by Richard Hickox of the original version of the London, if you haven't done so already:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It's available, with a lot more info about it, here.


I've already heard this one and it's GREAT! RIP Richard Hickox. He was such a unique conductor. He really knew how to bring the best out in his orchestras. His vast knowledge of the English classical repertoire was impressive.

The London Symphony CD, which was included in the Chandos 30th Anniversary box set I got last week, is simply outstanding. I still prefer the Boult on EMI, but Hickox really did a fantastic job with this reading.


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## Elgarian

JTech82 said:


> The London Symphony CD, which was included in the Chandos 30th Anniversary box set I got last week, is simply outstanding. I still prefer the Boult on EMI, but Hickox really did a fantastic job with this reading.


I entirely agree. I think it's fabulous that Hickox was able to do this - not because I think the original London is better than the final London, but because we now have _both_, and can choose, and compare, and mull it all over, and listen again, and generally have a good old revel in all these facets of London Symphonyness.

The possible controversy over doing this (I mean, resurrecting a version that RVW had discarded) reminds me a bit of the fuss about the completion of Elgar's third symphony. We all know the score (no pun intended). We know the difference between a composer's intentions, and a later intervention by another, and can allow for that. It seems to me the highest respect one can show to a composer to be so fascinated by his music as to want to hear not just his last thoughts about a piece, but also his first.


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## JTech82

Elgarian said:


> I entirely agree. I think it's fabulous that Hickox was able to do this - not because I think the original London is better than the final London, but because we now have _both_, and can choose, and compare, and mull it all over, and listen again, and generally have a good old revel in all these facets of London Symphonyness.
> 
> The possible controversy over doing this (I mean, resurrecting a version that RVW had discarded) reminds me a bit of the fuss about the completion of Elgar's third symphony. We all know the score (no pun intended). We know the difference between a composer's intentions, and a later intervention by another, and can allow for that. It seems to me the highest respect one can show to a composer to be so fascinated by his music as to want to hear not just his last thoughts about a piece, but also his first.


I think that's very true about a composer's first and last thoughts. I think both are important. Sometimes the first ideas we have are the better ones, but then again, they may have many errors. Look at Ravel, for example, he was notorious for revising ad nauseum, but I think the reason many of them revise pieces is manly because of orchestration and in Vaughan Williams case, I can see how he was very careful about the overall dynamics of the orchestra and the instruments and the way it all worked together.


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## Mirror Image

Bach said:


> A composer who truly exalts the beauty of the earth. The magnificence of the city (A London Symphony) to the vast inspiration of ancient landscapes (Symphony No. 3 'Pastoral', Symphony No. 5)
> 
> Anyone who thinks Elgar is the best English composer obviously hasn't heard any Vaughan-Williams - The definition of beauty in music. Elgar sounds like old ladies music in comparison.


I agree, but I don't agree with the dismissive attitude towards Elgar. Both are very different composers who felt different emotions and tried to achieve very different ideas. Elgar if you listen to enough of his music is actually a thoroughly enjoyable experience. I sense a very unsettling quality about his music. He has very interesting mood swings in his music like those found in his symphonies.

Vaughan Williams, on the other hand, was a very versatile composer, not that Elgar wasn't, but RVW experimented with a lot of different ideas from absorbing ideas from Thomas Tallis, to using English folk tunes, and to finally interjecting his music with modern overtones. He wasn't afraid to use dissonance, which is a very bold move for any composer to make, but he used this disharmony as an orchestral "effect," which gives it a very sinister quality, especially in symphonies 4, 6, 7, 8, and 9. He could scare the hell out of you when the time warranted it. He wasn't merely a one-trick pony.


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## Guest

Elgar can be an acquired taste for some whereas RVW is much easier to get along with


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## Mirror Image

Andante said:


> Elgar can be an acquired taste for some whereas RVW is much easier to get along with


 Well it depends on what you mean by easier to get along with. RVW wrote some pretty challenging pieces like the afore mentioned symphonies. I respect that modern streak of his more now. Andre has got me kind of warmed up to that side of him.

That said, everything is an acquired taste isn't it? I don't like serialism, but there's a lot of people who do. I don't enjoy Mozart and he's universally acknowledged as a composer that's accessible, but isn't for me for some odd reason. Perhaps he's too accessible for me? I don't know, but whatever the case may be, it all comes down to personal taste for anything.


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## Guest

I said an acquired taste for *some*, and yes RVW is very melodic and lyrical, perhaps with a touch of the melancholic. In both of our local music groups the music of RVW would be far more popular than Elgar's, please note I am not saying one is better that the other, that is not for me to say.


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## Mirror Image

Andante said:


> I said an acquired taste for *some*, and yes RVW is very melodic and lyrical, perhaps with a touch of the melancholic. In both of our local music groups the music of RVW would be far more popular than Elgar's, please note I am not saying one is better that the other, that is not for me to say.


Well sure, I understand what you're saying. I love both Elgar and RVW for different reasons.


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## Guest

Can I ask MI, Do you consider the 2nd sym as challenging ?? Or the 5th or the 6th or the Flos Campe suite. as I find them so easy compared to say Elgars 1st Sym which even now I play very rarely


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## Mirror Image

Andante said:


> Can I ask MI, Do you consider the 2nd sym as challenging ?? Or the 5th or the 6th or the Flos Campe suite. as I find them so easy compared to say Elgars 1st Sym which even now I play very rarely


I don't find RVW's 1st, 2nd, 3rd, or 5th challenging at all. I just find the 4th, 6th, 7th, 8th, and 9th challenging, because they came as a shock when I first heard them. Now, I enjoy them all, but my point is that RVW intermingled modern ideas into these symphonies and they just don't fall on the ear as easily as his the 1st, 2nd, 3rd, and 5th.

I don't listen to Elgar much, because in all honesty I personally don't enjoy his music as much as RVW's or Bax or even Howells.

To be even more honest, I haven't heard a RVW piece I didn't like, cf course, I like some more than others, but he was a remarkable consistent composer.


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## Elgarian

Mirror Image said:


> Vaughan Williams ... gives it a very sinister quality, especially in symphonies 4, 6, 7, 8, and 9. He could scare the hell out of you when the time warranted it.


Yes, I go along with this. I don't find RVW 'easy' at all. Both composers have their 'easy' work (one can point to 'Wasps' on the one hand, or 'Chanson de Matin' on the other), but, like MI, I find a lot more scary stuff in RVW than in Elgar - the cadenza of the violin concerto is about as scary as Elgar ever gets, and even that isn't scary in the same way. To some extent that's almost inevitable: Elgar is essentially a composer with a 19th century outlook - RVW, born a very important 15 years later, is of the 20th.

But speaking more generally, although 'challenging' is a quality possessed by _some_ great works of art, it's not a _necessary_ attribute of greatness. Duchamp's art isn't more worthy of respect than Constable's, merely because it's more challenging. (Although, having said that, in fairness I should acknowledge that in its day, Constable's art was perceived as challenging!)


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## Marco01

Some of my favourite RVW pieces include:

* Five variants of Dives and Lazarus
* The Lark Ascending
* Sinfonia Antarctica

And of course ...

* Thomas Tallis Fantasia

I still have much of his work to discover.

Elgar and RVW really are qutie different, so comparing the two wuold not be comparing like for like. However, both their music has a lot to offer.


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## Mirror Image

Marco01 said:


> Some of my favourite RVW pieces include:
> 
> * Five variants of Dives and Lazarus
> * The Lark Ascending
> * Sinfonia Antarctica
> 
> And of course ...
> 
> * Thomas Tallis Fantasia
> 
> I still have much of his work to discover.
> 
> Elgar and RVW really are qutie different, so comparing the two wuold not be comparing like for like. However, both their music has a lot to offer.


Besides "Sinfonia Antarctica," you should definitely check out all of his symphonies. He also wrote some great concertos.


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## Mirror Image

Elgarian said:


> But speaking more generally, although 'challenging' is a quality possessed by _some_ great works of art, it's not a _necessary_ attribute of greatness. Duchamp's art isn't more worthy of respect than Constable's, merely because it's more challenging. (Although, having said that, in fairness I should acknowledge that in its day, Constable's art was perceived as challenging!)


Yes, I agree just because something is more "challenging" doesn't mean it's better than a work that is less challenging.

Elgar just wrote great music, regardless of it's accessibility.


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## Guest

OK, just for the sake of argument "What is Great music" ?? What makes a piece of music great??
The most popular are sometimes scorned for being "just popular" Beethoven 5, P Son 14, Bolero etc


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## Mirror Image

Andante said:


> OK, just for the sake of argument "What is Great music" ?? What makes a piece of music great??
> The most popular are sometimes scorned for being "just popular" Beethoven 5, P Son 14, Bolero etc


I think you know as well as I do that music is subjective. I'm merely just saying that, in my opinion, Elgar wrote great music regardless if it's challenging or not.

By the way, I HATE "Bolero" whether it's popular or not. In fact, Ravel dispised it too and with good reason.


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## Sid James

I for one really prefer RVW's more 'challenging' symphonies because they are more experimental & interesting.

The monothematic _4th_, with it's outright anger & tension. _Antartica_ with it's interesting use of percussion and that haunting chorus with the soprano solo gliding over it. I also like how there's a narrator in it as well. The radiant _8th_, which has it's first movement marked as 'variations without a theme.' & the 9th, the hardest one to crack, is kind of mystical and epic.

I'm not a big fan of the others, although I do listen to them sometimes. I particularly think that the _London_ is just a rehash of Ravel with some cockney tunes & chimes of Big Ben thrown in. & the 6th, although it has that eery & haunting last movement, lacks cohesion for me.

But, though I am not a musician, I think that his writing for string orchestra surpasses by a long shot the orchestration of his symphonies. The symphonies appear less polished when compared to the efforts of, say, Walton or Bax...


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## Mirror Image

Andre said:


> I for one really prefer RVW's more 'challenging' symphonies because they are more experimental & interesting.
> 
> The monothematic _4th_, with it's outright anger & tension. _Antartica_ with it's interesting use of percussion and that haunting chorus with the soprano solo gliding over it. I also like how there's a narrator in it as well. The radiant _8th_, which has it's first movement marked as 'variations without a theme.' & the 9th, the hardest one to crack, is kind of mystical and epic.
> 
> I'm not a big fan of the others, although I do listen to them sometimes. I particularly think that the _London_ is just a rehash of Ravel with some cockney tunes & chimes of Big Ben thrown in. & the 6th, although it has that eery & haunting last movement, lacks cohesion for me.
> 
> But, though I am not a musician, I think that his writing for string orchestra surpasses by a long shot the orchestration of his symphonies. The symphonies appear less polished when compared to the efforts of, say, Walton or Bax...


You make some interesting points, especially since Vaughan Williams studied with Ravel for about 3 or 4 months.  But regardless of orchestration, I still find much enjoyment in his symphonic output.

Anyway, yes Andre, I'm coming around to enjoying those more dissonant symphonies of his, but the thing is I just can't except them for some reason. I guess because it is RVW being experimental and trying something different. For me, though I just think RVW's true gift is in his lyricism in conjunction with those gorgeous harmonies and melodies. This is where he truly shines in my opinion.

I do agree, however, that his orchestration in the symphonies isn't top-notch, but this alone doesn't distract from the music. I'm such a Ravel nut, so you know how particular I am about orchestration, but RVW is an important composer with a lot of great things to say musically.


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## Guest

Mirror Image said:


> I think you know as well as I do that music is subjective.


 All Art is subjective, how can it be anything else?


> By the way, I HATE "Bolero" whether it's popular or not. In fact, Ravel dispised it too and with good reason.


 I know you hate it but what is the good reason that Ravel dispised it??

While I can sympathise with your views of the Bolero I can't understand them.
Ravel was very interested in clocks and mechanical toys. This could account for the rigged meter of the Bolero and It was also one of the last pieces he composed perhaps it just had to be "It was a commission"
I personally think it is quite an amazing thing, it gathers everything together for one great climax yet the timing never changes yet to the uninitiated it races faster and faster* purely musical illusion* with virtually no development, and almost no modulation. Is its popularity the reason you hate it??


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## Mirror Image

Andante said:


> All Art is subjective, how can it be anything else?
> I know you hate it but what is the good reason that Ravel dispised it??
> 
> While I can sympathise with your views of the Bolero I can't understand them.
> Ravel was very interested in clocks and mechanical toys. This could account for the rigged meter of the Bolero and It was also one of the last pieces he composed perhaps it just had to be "It was a commission"
> 
> I personally think it is quite an amazing thing, it gathers everything together for one great climax yet the timing never changes yet to the uninitiated it races faster and faster* purely musical illusion* with virtually no development, and almost no modulation. Is its popularity the reason you hate it??


Here is what Ravel said about Bolero:

_"It constitutes an experiment in a very special and limited direction, and should not be suspected of aiming at achieving anything different from, or anything more than, it actually does achieve. Before its first performance, I issued a warning to the effect that what I had written was a piece lasting seventeen minutes and consisting wholly of "orchestral tissue without music" - of one very long, gradual crescendo. There are no contrasts, and practically no invention except the plan and the manner of execution."_

He clearly didn't like the piece. My honest assessment of this, which can be found in Ravel's composer guestbook also, is that he composed this piece begrudgely. Anyway, it's a long story I don't feel like launching into tonight. Just go to the Ravel guestbook and read what I wrote.


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## Guest

Mirror Image said:


> Anyway, it's a long story I don't feel like launching into tonight. Just go to the Ravel guestbook and read what I wrote.


In that case I can't really be bothered either


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## Mirror Image

Andante said:


> In that case I can't really be bothered either


Okay Andante here's what happened:

Ravel was commissioned by Ida Rubenstein to compose a ballet. Ravel's original thought was to just orchestrate some pieces from Albeniz's "Iberia." What had happen was another composer was already asigned the task of orchestrating these pieces and due to copyright laws he was unable to do it. This left Ravel is a unique situation and it took him a little while to figure out what he wanted to do, so he just decided to compose a new piece of music, which originally was titled "Fandango," but he changed the name to "Bolero," because of the Spanish dance this composition depicts.

I honestly feel that Ravel was scrambling around at the last minute trying to come up with this piece. The only reason why he did it was for his friend Rubenstein and obviously the money. "Bolero" was also composed at a time of great illness. As you may or may not know, Ravel was involved in an automobile accident that rendered him with brain damage, but he didn't know it at the time. His mind became much and much worse after "Bolero" was composed.


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## Guest

Mirror Image said:


> Okay Andante here's what happened:
> 
> ...................................................
> His mind became much and much worse after "Bolero" was composed.


I am not doubting the history, it is easily available if you want to google it, 
sometimes composers are their own toughest critics! 
I really came to appreciate it after hearing it performed at a concert, it just has to be the most exciting crescendo that I can think of.


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## Mirror Image

Andante said:


> I am not doubting the history, it is easily available if you want to google it,
> sometimes composers are their own toughest critics!
> I really came to appreciate it after hearing it performed at a concert, it just has to be the most exciting crescendo that I can think of.


 You're welcome? 

Well in my opinion it wasn't the best demonstration of his musical ability, he wrote much better music I think than "Bolero."

But this is just my opinion.


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## Guest

Mirror Image said:


> You're welcome?


 now I'm confused


> Well in my opinion it wasn't the best demonstration of his musical ability, he wrote much better music I think than "Bolero."
> 
> But this is just my opinion.


I have not claimed it was any thing like his best, However perhaps we should let it rest


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## Mirror Image

Andante said:


> now I'm confused


Usually, people say thank you to somebody who takes the time to explain something to them. I don't care if you knew this or not. A simple thank you goes a long way.



Andante said:


> I have not claimed it was any thing like his best, However perhaps we should let it rest


I didn't say you said or thought it was his best.  Don't put words into my mouth, Andante.

Anyway, agreed we should just let it rest.

Back to Vaughan Williams...


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## Guest

One Vaughn Williams work that is well worth hearing is “The Pilgrims Progress” The version that I have was taped from a CD quite a few years ago, it is by the City of London Sinfonia with the Corydon Singers, Matthew Best, and Sir John Gielgud as narrator what an interesting voice and such wonderful diction, he is missed by many.


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## Mirror Image

Andante said:


> One Vaughn Williams work that is well worth hearing is "The Pilgrims Progress" The version that I have was taped from a CD quite a few years ago, it is by the City of London Sinfonia with the Corydon Singers, Matthew Best, and Sir John Gielgud as narrator what an interesting voice and such wonderful diction, he is missed by many.


Andante, you like Malcolm Arnold?


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## Guest

He is a composer that I have heard many times on the Proms but I do not have any CDs


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## Mirror Image

Andante said:


> He is a composer that I have heard many times on the Proms but I do not have any CDs


So is that a yes or no?


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## Guest

No its not!


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## Mirror Image

Andante said:


> No its not!


From what you've heard, do you like his music? Yes or no.


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## Jaime77

There are good recordings of Arnold on Naxos - excuse me butting in, some of the best. I went on a Naxos spree yesterday and nearly did 'the Arnold thing' but opted to explore Nielsen instead. I must try him some time. I imagine it to be pastoral romanticism. But I thought Walton was like that and RVW and they are so much more.


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## Mirror Image

jaibyrne said:


> There are good recordings of Arnold on Naxos - excuse me butting in, some of the best. I went on a Naxos spree yesterday and nearly did 'the Arnold thing' but opted to explore Nielsen instead. I must try him some time. I imagine it to be pastoral romanticism. But I thought Walton was like that and RVW and they are so much more.


Arnold is hardly a Romantic. Perhaps there are shades of it here or there, but he's a Modernist to the core. He was very much influenced by jazz music, in fact, it was Louis Armstrong that got him interested in playing the trumpet. He was known as an excellent player, won a scholarship to study music, he played as the principal trumpet player in the London Philharmonic Orchestra in the '40s.

"Pastoral Romanticism" doesn't really describe Walton at all. Walton was a Neo-Classicist. RVW did compose some very pastoral sounding music, but he also wrote some more modern pieces as well. Quite shocking actually to go from say "The Lark Ascending" to "Symphony No. 4."


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## Bach

The question is though: Is Arnold a good composer? In England, the train of thought is that he is very much considered a 'utilitarian' composer - someone who fulfilled commissions from exam boards and not much else.

Does he lack creativity? Are his compositions utilitarian/written as commercially viable products and not for the love of art?


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## Jaime77

Arnold is modern? In what sense? The Jazz influence? I am curious as to how tonal he is. 
I don't think I could agree that Walton is neoclassical, Mirror Image. His first symphony, violin, viola and cello concertos are surely more accurately described as post-romantic or late romantic, I mean it is all very expressive, moving and lush music. Anyway, these damn labels are all misleading. 
I only heard Arnold's film music - it just reminded me on the reference to 'commercially viable'.


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## YsayeOp.27#6

Mirror Image said:


> Arnold is hardly a Romantic.


So you know Arnold now. It's nice to see how much you have been learning lately.


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## Mirror Image

Bach said:


> The question is though: Is Arnold a good composer? In England, the train of thought is that he is very much considered a 'utilitarian' composer - someone who fulfilled commissions from exam boards and not much else.
> 
> Does he lack creativity? Are his compositions utilitarian/written as commercially viable products and not for the love of art?


Yes, Arnold is a good composer. I like him. Granted, he like so many other composers, have written film music, not that there's anything wrong with that, but I think any listen to his symphonies and concerti will reveal he there was much more to Arnold than the film composer or the composer trying to make some money. I admire his music very much.


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## Mirror Image

jaibyrne said:


> Arnold is modern? In what sense? The Jazz influence? I am curious as to how tonal he is.
> I don't think I could agree that Walton is neoclassical, Mirror Image. His first symphony, violin, viola and cello concertos are surely more accurately described as post-romantic or late romantic, I mean it is all very expressive, moving and lush music. Anyway, these damn labels are all misleading.
> I only heard Arnold's film music - it just reminded me on the reference to 'commercially viable'.


Walton was clearly influenced by Stravinsky and you can hear such an influence in much of his work like his ballets, Variations on a Theme by Hindemith, his concerti, his choral works. The influence is there and it comes out through his music. Labels ARE misleading, but it doesn't take a genius to start adding up these composers' influences. Something that is expressive, moving, and lush doesn't qualify it to be a work of Romanticism. You should know that. His music, like that of Prokofiev, Stravinsky, Poulenc, Hindemith is full of rhythmic complexity, which sometimes are the only means that drive a piece of his music. Perhaps he's not a pure Neo-Classical composer, but he surely isn't a late-Romantic composer.

Arnold isn't a Modernist in the sense that he composed pieces for two triangles, sitar, and a piece of barb wire....lol, but he's Modern in the harmonies and his approach to the structure of the music. Anyway, I guess it could be said that Arnold doesn't ally himself with any "schools" of classical music, so this makes his music even the more difficult to categorize. Music historians still don't know how to categorize him.


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## Guest

Mirror Image said:


> From what you've heard, do you like his music? Yes or no.


The music that I have heard of Arnold leaves no strong impression upon me, he is not played often on our radio or at Concerts  I thought this thread was about RVW?


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## Sid James

I suppose seeing RVW's _Tallis Fantasia _live in concert this weekend made me see how he uses small groups of instruments within the larger chamber orchestra. I think that this is definitely a much better work than _Dives & Lazarus_, where the repetition of a single idea gets really tedious. I think that other composers would have been more judicious, and not published a piece which is of such low musical value. But that's the problems I have with RVW. He turned out some really worthwhile music, like the intense _Symphony No. 4_, but also alot of works in which he just repeats himself endlessly. So I warn especially classical music beginners to become familiar with RVW's works, say by listening to them on radio or reading up about them, before they invest their hard earned cash in recordings of his works. Probably the best thing is to see him done live, which is perhaps more rewarding than hearing some of his music on disc. But that's just my conclusion after doing that myself.


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## Guest

Andre said:


> So I warn especially classical music beginners to become familiar with RVW's works, say by listening to them on radio or reading up about them, before they invest their hard earned cash in recordings of his works..


I do agree with you, but I have always researched each work and of course heard it on the Radio well before making a purchase of any work by any composer, and have done so for many years, my policy has been to get the best available at the time


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## Mirror Image

Andre said:


> I suppose seeing RVW's _Tallis Fantasia _live in concert this weekend made me see how he uses small groups of instruments within the larger chamber orchestra. I think that this is definitely a much better work than _Dives & Lazarus_, where the repetition of a single idea gets really tedious. I think that other composers would have been more judicious, and not published a piece which is of such low musical value. But that's the problems I have with RVW. He turned out some really worthwhile music, like the intense _Symphony No. 4_, but also alot of works in which he just repeats himself endlessly. So I warn especially classical music beginners to become familiar with RVW's works, say by listening to them on radio or reading up about them, before they invest their hard earned cash in recordings of his works. Probably the best thing is to see him done live, which is perhaps more rewarding than hearing some of his music on disc. But that's just my conclusion after doing that myself.


Before I even got into RVW, I researched his music quite extensively. When I first heard him, I really wasn't that impressed with his music. I heard some of his smaller orchestral pieces "The Lark Ascending," "Five Variants of Dives and Lazarus," "Fantastia on a Theme by Thomas Tallis," "In The Fen Country," and a few others. Then I bought Sir Adrian Boult's RVW symphony cycle on EMI. I was blown away by these performances and I still am to this day. It's my favorite RVW cycle. I love all of his symphonies, but what was interesting about this set was it had two pretty rare RVW pieces like "Concerto for Two Pianos" and "Job: A Masque For Dancing." I was not expecting much from these pieces, but I really enjoyed them. A lot more than I did his other orchestral works.

It has only been in recent months that I've become a fan of his works. I spent more time listening to him, trying to absorb his music, and I'm glad I did, because I would have completely written him off if I hadn't stuck with his music. I guess this is a testament to the power of his music and that gorgeous lyricism that is found within it that keeps me coming back.


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## Bach

I've got that set, MI, and I think I may have told you before - but I don't like it. Previn is far better.


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## Mirror Image

Bach said:


> I've got that set, MI, and I think I may have told you before - but I don't like it. Previn is far better.


Really? You've heard this whole set? All 8-discs?










The Previn is decent, but I'm not crazy about the sound quality nor am I that impressed with his conducting anyway and yes, I've heard the whole set. 

Aside from the Boult, I like the Handley, Thomson, and Sir Andrew Davis sets as well.


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## Sid James

Yeah, I can probably tolerate any RVW if it's conducted by Boult. I have some in mono & early stereo, definitely not as good sound quality as DDD, but the intensity of Boult's interpretation wins me over, despite the fact that RVW is far from being my favourite composer. By the way, I think his best string orchestra work is the _Partita for Double String Orchestra_. Some good counterpoint in it, contrasting moods, and it's fairly coherent & not hotch potch, which you don't always get with this composer...


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## Mirror Image

Andre said:


> Yeah, I can probably tolerate any RVW if it's conducted by Boult. I have some in mono & early stereo, definitely not as good sound quality as DDD, but the intensity of Boult's interpretation wins me over, despite the fact that RVW is far from being my favourite composer. By the way, I think his best string orchestra work is the _Partita for Double String Orchestra_. Some good counterpoint in it, contrasting moods, and it's fairly coherent & not hotch potch, which you don't always get with this composer...


Hotch potch? What pieces are "hotch potch" to you? Every composer has pieces that may not be up to par with your "high standards," but I think RVW composed more winning compositions than duds.

I disagree with you about sound quality: ADD, in my opinion, sounds a lot better than DDD recordings. Why? The orchestra are warmer and richer. Go listen to a Philips late 70s and early 80s recordings and tell me that they don't sound fantastic.


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## Sid James

I'm not saying they're duds exactly, otherwise why would I still be listening to them occassionally after many years? I'd say some of the symphonies in particular are less coherent, because he throws in styles of various composers randomly. In many of them, I can hear elements of everything from Ravel to Beethoven, Brahms, Busoni, Mahler, Holst, you name it? That's why I think his best symphony is the Fourth, as it is pretty coherent, unified by a single theme & idea that is quite individual. In that work, he expressed directly what he wanted to, rather than beguiling the listener with all these different impressions of other composer's styles...

As to sound quality (this would be an interesting topic in itself), I prefer DDD as it seems more detailed, but I have an equal number of ADD & DDD recordings, I'm not really fussy about which I buy. For chamber or instrumental works, I definitely prefer DDD. I can tolerate even Mono if the performance is electrifying, I can ignore the low quality. I have a very good friend who only buys DDD because he thinks it's the best, but I think he's missing out on some classic pre-DDD performances...


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## Mirror Image

Andre said:


> I'm not saying they're duds exactly, otherwise why would I still be listening to them occassionally after many years? I'd say some of the symphonies in particular are less coherent, because he throws in styles of various composers randomly. In many of them, I can hear elements of everything from Ravel to Beethoven, Brahms, Busoni, Mahler, Holst, you name it? That's why I think his best symphony is the Fourth, as it is pretty coherent, unified by a single theme & idea that is quite individual. In that work, he expressed directly what he wanted to, rather than beguiling the listener with all these different impressions of other composer's styles...
> 
> As to sound quality (this would be an interesting topic in itself), I prefer DDD as it seems more detailed, but I have an equal number of ADD & DDD recordings, I'm not really fussy about which I buy. For chamber or instrumental works, I definitely prefer DDD. I can tolerate even Mono if the performance is electrifying, I can ignore the low quality. I have a very good friend who only buys DDD because he thinks it's the best, but I think he's missing out on some classic pre-DDD performances...


 Andre, are you telling me that RVW didn't know he what he was doing when he wrote say "A Pastoral Symphony"? Are you telling me he didn't know what he wanted to express in that symphony? I think you're, again, clutching at straws for an excuse as to criticize his music. If you don't feel any kind of emotion at all, then you're not going enjoy RVW's works.

As for being influenced by other composers, what composer hasn't been influenced by the past or present composers of his/her time? My goodness you make it sound like RVW should be taken out back and whipped for showing an influence here or there of a composer.

I think it's sad that you can do nothing but criticize this influential composer based on some silly assertions that don't really add up to much.

I think this is were I draw the line and send you on your way...

Here is what "A Pastoral Symphony" is about:

Vaughan Williams' third symphony is not 'pastoral' in the same sense as Beethoven's Sixth; it is instead an encapsulation of his experiences in the First World War, when he served in the ambulance unit.

However the work is not full of military marches and martial drums, but instead looks beyond the war to a more contemplative and transcendent kind of elegy.

The emotional core of the symphony is its third movement, the climax of which, according to Michael Kennedy, seems to represent the composer's reaction to the loss of his friends before and during the war.

The last movement begins and ends with a wordless song by a solo soprano, leading the music up to an other-worldly plane.

[Article taken from Philharmonia's website]

Have a look around this website: http://www.rvwsociety.com/aboutsociety.html you might just learn something you didn't know.


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## Sid James

I am familiar with the story behind the _Pastoral Symphony_. There's very little development, thematic or otherwise, in works like the _Pastoral Symphony_. _Sinfonia Antarctica _is a bit more rewarding, but only because he uses the percussion section & chorus with some flair, even though thematically nothing much happens. Then there's the other extreme were too much is happening & the result is mish mash like _Symphony No. 6_. A war theme in the first movement , the menace of the second echoing _Mars _in Holst's _The Planets_, a Mahlerian third, then a huge rip off of what Busoni (& Tchaikovsky) had done decades before in the final movement.

I can enjoy these works, but if you listen perceptively, you'll realise that they're not very coherent, the orchestration doesn't match, say Busoni, Ravel or Puccini, who obviously influenced him, and there is very little in the way of thematic development. It doesn't matter if you are influenced by many other composers or types of music, but it's how you integrate them into your own style that makes the difference between a work being good or a masterpiece. Take Szymanowski's String Quartets, which I have been listening to lately. There are alot of influences there, from Beethoven, to Ravel & Bartok. But it's how he combines & absorbs those skillfully that makes these works coherent, unified & unique. The same cannot be said of many of RVW's works, IMO...


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## Mirror Image

Andre said:


> I am familiar with the story behind the Pastoral Symphony. There's very little development, thematic or otherwise, in works like the Pastoral Symphony. Sinfonia Antarctica is a bit more rewarding, but only because he uses the percussion section & chorus with some flair, even though thematically nothing much happens. Then there's the other extreme were too much is happening & the result is mish mash like Symphony No. 6. A war theme in the first movement , the menace of the second echoing Mars in Holst's The Planets, a Mahlerian third, then a huge rip off of what Busoni (& Tchaikovsky) had done decades before in the final movement.
> 
> I can enjoy these works, but if you listen perceptively, you'll realise that they're not very coherent, the orchestration doesn't match, say Busoni, Ravel or Puccini, who obviously influenced him, and there is very little in the way of thematic development. It doesn't matter if you are influenced by many other composers or types of music, but it's how you integrate them into your own style that makes the difference between a work being good or a masterpiece. Take Szymanowski's String Quartets, which I have been listening to lately. There are alot of influences there, from Beethoven, to Ravel & Bartok. But it's how he combines & absorbs those skillfully that makes these works coherent, unified & unique. The same cannot be said of many of RVW's works, IMO...


Clutching at straws again I see. Keep it up.

I urge you to look at this website: http://www.rvwsociety.com/aboutsociety.html

Perhaps read more about him and try to learn something about his music, instead of pointing out what it's flaws are. Do you think you could do this?

RVW is internationally recognized and there's a reason for this don't you think? I mean it's not like his music faded in obscurity. Music critics, fans of classical music, and everyday people enjoy his music and I think this is a huge feat for any composer. He's still being talked about today, which is a lot more than I can say of some other composers like....well you know who.


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## Sid James

What's the story behind the _Pastoral Symphony_ got to do with this argument? I bought up some good examples of how some of RVW's works lack stylistic & thematic coherence. I'm not clutching at straws at all, but presenting a logical argument based on my perception of RVW after listening to his music for a decade (not on something I've read). You're the one who is meandering down another path entirely. What for? Just admit that RVW had a tendency to repeat himself & was not as original as those composers I mentioned above...


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## Mirror Image

I agree with what Bach, the original poster of this thread, said about RVW (except for the part about Elgar):

*A composer who truly exalts the beauty of the earth. The magnificence of the city (A London Symphony) to the vast inspiration of ancient landscapes (Symphony No. 3 'Pastoral', Symphony No. 5)

Anyone who thinks Elgar is the best English composer obviously hasn't heard any Vaughan-Williams - The definition of beauty in music. Elgar sounds like old ladies music in comparison.*


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## Sid James

So too the popularity of Mantovani or Andre Rieu (or Johann Strauss), it doesn't make them the greatest composers, arrangers or performers. You said this yourself, music is not a popularity contest. Anyway, I agree with bdelykleon said on the other thread, a few weeks back, RVW may be popular in the Anglo-Saxon world, but look beyond that, say in continental Europe, Latin America or Asia & he's a nonentity. He can hold his own against some other British composers in Britain or maybe the USA (but definitely not Britten internationally), but as far as Europe is concerned, they'd rather hear music that is a more individual interpretation of the human condition, such as their own Bruckner, Verdi or say Ravel.


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## Jim

I agree with you totally about the Antarctica Symphony - he captures the bleakness and vastness of the region - coldness going on forever - the danger and inability to get out of the lonliness and incessant cold - wonderful composition this one.


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## Mirror Image

Jim said:


> I agree with you totally about the Antarctica Symphony - he captures the bleakness and vastness of the region - coldness going on forever - the danger and inability to get out of the lonliness and incessant cold - wonderful composition this one.


Yes, it's a great piece of music. No question about it, but it's not one of my favorite RVW pieces.


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## Jim

So what are your favourite RVW pieces then?


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## maestro267

I got a recording of some RVW music for chorus and orchestra. So far, I've only listened to 'Toward the Unknown Region', which is absolutely fantastic! It sounds like it could be a companion piece to 'A Sea Symphony'.

As for my favourite RVW piece, it would probably have to be 'A Sea Symphony'. Just so many unforgettable passages, such as the point in the fourth movement where the women sing, unaccompanied, 'Wherefore, unsatisfied soul...'. Incredible moment!


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## Bach

Just bought the complete RVW with Andre Previn and the LSO - best recordings of his symphonies I've ever heard.


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## Mirror Image

Bach said:


> Just bought the complete RVW with Andre Previn and the LSO - best recordings of his symphonies I've ever heard.


That's a very good set, but I think I enjoy Thomson's and Handley's readings better. Handley is wildly emotional while Thomson gives an emotional performance as well, but with much more introspection.

Let me add that I own all the RVW symphony cycles with the exception of Boult on Decca, which many of the recordings are in mono, which I'm not a big fan of.

I'm curious, which other RVW cycles have you heard, Bach?


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## Bach

The only other one I own is the Boult - i'm not overkeen on the sound quality. Doesn't do RVW's orchestration any favours..


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## Mirror Image

Bach said:


> The only other one I own is the Boult - i'm not overkeen on the sound quality. Doesn't do RVW's orchestration any favours..


I think the Boult on EMI sounds great. It's so much better than the set on Decca.


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## Weston

A question for the thread. I hope it wasn't answered already, but it's a long thread to wade through. I just listened to a 1969 recording of _Wasps _conducted by Constantin Silvestri / Bournemouth Symphony Orchestra and it's a great rendition, but I see its complete name is _The Wasps - Aristophanic Suite: Overture_. Does this mean there's a complete Aristophanic Suite somewhere I can look for?


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## Mirror Image

Weston said:


> A question for the thread. I hope it wasn't answered already, but it's a long thread to wade through. I just listened to a 1969 recording of _Wasps _conducted by Constantin Silvestri / Bournemouth Symphony Orchestra and it's a great rendition, but I see its complete name is _The Wasps - Aristophanic Suite: Overture_. Does this mean there's a complete Aristophanic Suite somewhere I can look for?


To my knowledge the full score of "The Wasps" hasn't been recorded. The only form I've seen it is the suite. Check this out:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Wasps_(Vaughan_Williams)


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## Mirror Image

I was watching the DVD documentary of RVW the other day and this was one of the most pathetic excuses for a documentary I've ever seen. Has anyone seen "O Thou Transcendent"? The problem I have with this film is 1) the incompetence of the director, 2) the incompetence of the editor and producer, 3) absolutely no substance, 4) the lack of any kind of real timeline that starts with RVW's birth all the way up to his death, and 5) the people who were interviewed throughout made absolutely no sense. I speak English and I need an English translator to even understand what the hell these people were saying.

Bottomline: STAY AWAY FROM THIS FILM!!!!


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## Sid James

If you want to watch a good documentary about RVW, or about any number of famous composers, I'd recommend _*Classical Destinations*_, hosted by Simon Callow. Parts 1 & 2 of the television series are now on DVD. They were actually produced by an Australian company, SBS, & include members of the Australian Chamber Orchestra playing the composer's works. Across the two series, there are episodes which feature one or two composers each. There's a very good episode in series 2 about RVW & Holst. I'll probably post a separate thread about this to inform people. It's an excellent series, the cinematography of where the composers lived & worked is stunning, and they are very informative. It's worth buying these on DVD, as you're sure to enjoy them for years to come...


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## Mirror Image

Andre said:


> If you want to watch a good documentary about RVW, or about any number of famous composers, I'd recommend _*Classical Destinations*_, hosted by Simon Callow. Parts 1 & 2 of the television series are now on DVD. They were actually produced by an Australian company, SBS, & include members of the Australian Chamber Orchestra playing the composer's works. Across the two series, there are episodes which feature one or two composers each. There's a very good episode in series 2 about RVW & Holst. I'll probably post a separate thread about this to inform people. It's an excellent series, the cinematography of where the composers lived & worked is stunning, and they are very informative. It's worth buying these on DVD, as you're sure to enjoy them for years to come...


I don't know about this series Andre. How much depth are there to the histories of the composers who are featured? In the the episode that features RVW and Holst, how much history is actually revealed, how much depth is there to their respective history, and does it follow a logical order or sequence of events?

I saw a trailer for the series. I wasn't too impressed.


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## Sid James

Well, it's as much depth as you'd get from a 40 minute or so episode, which was originally shown on television. Of course, this is not at the level of an academic dissertation, it's far more general than that. But basically, it tells of the area where each composer grew up, their main activities as composers (eg. in the case of RVW, collecting British folk music), and some of the times they lived through (like the two world wars for RVW). I actually think it's not only good on an information level, but also as entertainment. & at the end of each episode, you get a performance of one of the composer's pieces, in the case of the RVW/Holst episode, it's an excerpt from the latter's _St. Paul's Suite_. I personally like this series, as I said, the scenes are amazing (you can probably tell I'm an armchair traveller), and Simon Callow does a good job at narrating. I hope that (partially at least) answers your question...


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## Mirror Image

Andre said:


> Well, it's as much depth as you'd get from a 40 minute or so episode, which was originally shown on television. Of course, this is not at the level of an academic dissertation, it's far more general than that. But basically, it tells of the area where each composer grew up, their main activities as composers (eg. in the case of RVW, collecting British folk music), and some of the times they lived through (like the two world wars for RVW). I actually think it's not only good on an information level, but also as entertainment. & at the end of each episode, you get a performance of one of the composer's pieces, in the case of the RVW/Holst episode, it's an excerpt from the latter's _St. Paul's Suite_. I personally like this series, as I said, the scenes are amazing (you can probably tell I'm an armchair traveller), and Simon Callow does a good job at narrating. I hope that (partially at least) answers your question...


I'm looking more for depth or things that go beyond books or websites. I mean anybody can look at Wikipedia or get out an Oxford book of classical and read about all the composer's histories.

I enjoy traveling and things about traveling, but I take music quite seriously and I'm just not sure how much value I would get from the series. That's really my biggest concern more than anything. Will I walk away from this series with more knowledge? That's the question.

Thanks for mentioning the series, but I'll probably just rent it instead of buying it.


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## Sid James

I just again watched the Holst/RVW episode of _Classical Destinations _on the weekend & I think it's a good general introduction to these guy's music. Some interesting facts I learnt was that Holst was just about to give up music completely before he composed _The Planets_, and that his friend RVW actually recommended him to the teaching post at St Paul's school. Actually, I didn't even know that the two were friends, and went on the folk collecting journeys across the UK together (& they both came from the Cotswolds area). They also both took (some) part in WW1. Holst also established a choral festival in an English town whose name I can't remember, which is still held annually today.

As for RVW, it mentioned that he edited an edition of the English Hymn book, which included music by many composers who would inspire him (eg. Tallis). He was also a committed Socialist who didn't accept a knighthood but did compose music for two royal coronations (_'The Old 100th' _for Queen Elizabeth II).

I really prefer the music of Holst to RVW, but it was interesting to watch this documentary, see the places were they grew up, and some of the landscapes which they journeyed across, towns they visited, churches, etc.


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## Mirror Image

Andre said:


> I just again watched the Holst/RVW episode of _Classical Destinations _on the weekend & I think it's a good general introduction to these guy's music. Some interesting facts I learnt was that Holst was just about to give up music completely before he composed _The Planets_, and that his friend RVW actually recommended him to the teaching post at St Paul's school. Actually, I didn't even know that the two were friends, and went on the folk collecting journeys across the UK together (& they both came from the Cotswolds area). They also both took (some) part in WW1. Holst also established a choral festival in an English town whose name I can't remember, which is still held annually today.
> 
> As for RVW, it mentioned that he edited an edition of the English Hymn book, which included music by many composers who would inspire him (eg. Tallis). He was also a committed Socialist who didn't accept a knighthood but did compose music for two royal coronations (_'The Old 100th' _for Queen Elizabeth II).
> 
> I really prefer the music of Holst to RVW, but it was interesting to watch this documentary, see the places were they grew up, and some of the landscapes which they journeyed across, towns they visited, churches, etc.


I knew all of this.


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## Sid James

Well, as I said, the series (_Classical Destinations_) is not merely factual, but visual. It's really a feast for the senses. Even some people I know, who I lent the DVD's to, really enjoyed them, even though they aren't classical fans.


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## Mirror Image

Andre said:


> Well, as I said, the series (_Classical Destinations_) is not merely factual, but visual. It's really a feast for the senses. Even some people I know, who I lent the DVD's to, really enjoyed them, even though they aren't classical fans.


It sounds like a pretty cool DVD series. I'll have to see if my library has it (yes that's right you heard me --- THE LIBRARY). Since it was a PBS series, I'm sure they'll have it.


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## Weston

I did enjoy "O Thou Transcendent" probably because, even though he is one of my favorites, I knew next to nothing about RVW other than his witnessing some horrors during WWI.

I agree it is disjointed, but it did inform me a little about his personality through the interviews of those who remembered him. I was especially astonished at the parts about his 2nd wife who was much younger (and rather attractive) and the stories of ladies always hanging around him at gatherings. I would not have suspected him of this kind of charisma for some reason.

Still I feel I don't know much more about the man after viewing it.


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## Cortision

I have just heard for the first time The Sea Symphony, and thought it sounded great. I've not heard anything quite like it before.


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## Mirror Image

Weston said:


> I did enjoy "O Thou Transcendent" probably because, even though he is one of my favorites, I knew next to nothing about RVW other than his witnessing some horrors during WWI.
> 
> I agree it is disjointed, but it did inform me a little about his personality through the interviews of those who remembered him. I was especially astonished at the parts about his 2nd wife who was much younger (and rather attractive) and the stories of ladies always hanging around him at gatherings. I would not have suspected him of this kind of charisma for some reason.
> 
> Still I feel I don't know much more about the man after viewing it.


I still know very little about him and this film was 2 hrs. and 40 minutes!!!!

Anyway, the reason films like this don't work are because composers are enigmatic people. They keep to themselves a lot and RVW was definitely this way. He was also self-contradictory, especially when talking with conductors or other people about his music. He was an admirable man though. A very giving person.


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## JAKE WYB

I found it hard to watch simply because it looked amatuerish and unrefined in its camera work - and the huge amounts of old people though very interesting in their direct links didnt seem to be enlightening. A much more enlightening production was Stephen Johnsons radio documentary - cant remeber what it was called - sometimes radio is better for that sort of thing.


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## starry

Tallis Fantasia is good, Lark Ascending nice. But why do some say the symphonies are among the greatest of the last century? There are some nice textures at times but is that really enough? Overhype again maybe.


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## Sid James

starry said:


> Tallis Fantasia is good, Lark Ascending nice. But why do some say the symphonies are among the greatest of the last century? There are some nice textures at times but is that really enough? Overhype again maybe.


I agree. I think that most of his symphonies are are a mish-mash of styles, and sometimes lack real coherence. Look at the _London Symphony_, parts of it remind me of Puccini, Ravel, the final movement a march similar to Brahms. & the _Symphony No. 6_ has elements of Mahler (the scherzo), uncomfortably sitting next to Busoni (the slow final movement). For me, the lack of unity is a big drawback in these works.

IMO, the most satisfying work in his whole output is the _Symphony No. 4_. I've probably said it before, but I like it's directness (it's monothematic), he doesn't beat around the bush here. Parts of the orchestration remind me of Bartok, but it's still a convincing work. Probably too intense for some people, but I'd rather have this than his nice pictures of rural England which really just don't grab me at all...


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## StlukesguildOhio

Of course, Andre, your prejudice for Modernism over late Romanticism is obvious. The fact that you personally don't like Vaughan-Williams' (or anyone else's) more pastoral works is in no way a valid criticism of the same. Personally, I quite like Vaughan-William's symphonies... the more pastoral... and the more brash. They are two different sides to the composer's vision. No, they are not on the level of Brahms or Mahler's or Bruckner's symphonies... but few composers rise to that level. I'm personally more attracted to Delius at present. I've recently listened to Vaughan-William's Sea Symphony and Delius Sea Drift, both of which are symphonic/choral/vocal works constructed around the theme of the sea and the poetry of Whitman. I personally found Delius work to be much stronger. But I'm not certain that personal preference amounts to a statement of fact.


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## Cortision

StlukesguildOhio said:


> Of course, Andre, your prejudice for Modernism over late Romanticism is obvious. The fact that you personally don't like Vaughan-Williams' (or anyone else's) more pastoral works is in no way a valid criticism of the same. .


Well, to be fair, he was stating his _opinion_ and gave his reason for it - which he is quite entilted to do.

Myself, I have just recently become familiar with with Fantasia on a theme of Thomas Tallis, which to my ears is a beautiful work yet not sugary in any way. I wonder what it must be like to be able to write music like that...


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## StlukesguildOhio

Well, to be fair, he was stating his opinion and gave his reason for it - which he is quite entilted to do

I'm not questioning his right to a personal opinion. We all have them. I'm simply noting that if it is well-known that I am less than sympathetic to the classical era, for example, any statements I might make about Haydn or Mozart being overrated should probably be taken with a grain of salt. My own personal tastes are quite broad, ranging from medieval to contemporary work... but considering my opinion upon atonal music I'm probably not going to offer a fully objective opinion of Schoenberg.


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## Weston

Do people really say Vaughan-Williams' symphonies are the greatest of the last century? I don't recall hearing that very often. They are certainly enjoyable for me, but I am not sure I would rank them with Shostakovich, Rachmaninoff, or Nielsen. My favorite of Vaughan-Williams' is the 7th, _Sinfonia Antartica_, and it is a symphony in name only in my opinion. For me it is really a soundtrack suite.


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## Sid James

Weston said:


> Do people really say Vaughan-Williams' symphonies are the greatest of the last century? I don't recall hearing that very often. They are certainly enjoyable for me, but I am not sure I would rank them with Shostakovich, Rachmaninoff, or Nielsen. My favorite of Vaughan-Williams' is the 7th, _Sinfonia Antartica_, and it is a symphony in name only in my opinion. For me it is really a soundtrack suite.


The books I've read say that RVW produced the best symphonies composed by a British composer in the C20th. My knowledge of this area is not great, but as I've said before, I think that Bax's cycle is much finer for it's overall cohesion. There's also more thematic development in the symphonies by him that I've heard. Rubbra is also another C20th British symphonist who is much overlooked, but I haven't heard any of his symphonies to make a comparison with RVW. I think that Walton would have been one of the best British symphonists, but unfortunately, he only produced two symphonies. But in terms of quality they are said to be very fine indeed (I've only heard the first). I think it's ridiculous how, looking at this rich and diverse repertoire, you hardly get any other British symphonies on the airwaves apart from RVW (at least here in Sydney, anyway). I've heard RVW's 5th symphony enough times, and I'm sick of it. How about some more varied programming of the other composers?

I agree with you that the other composers you mentioned composed much better symphonies than RVW. & yes, _Sinfonia Antartica _does render the frozen wastes of that continent perfectly, pity there is not much thematic development in it. As I said, the only RVW symphony that I think is a masterpiece is the 4th. That's my opinion, take it or leave it, people...


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## StlukesguildOhio

I agree that overplay by the radio stations can turn us against ever wanting to hear a particular piece again. Then again... I rarely ever listen to the radio and never watch TV so the media has little or no impact upon me. Ralph Vaughan Williams may have risen to the status of the most popular modern British composer... perhaps not unlike Aaron Copland in the US... but I personally don't find him to be a stand-alone figure. As I stated earlier, I prefer Delius, but I also like Bax (although I am more familiar with his tone poems than any symphonies), Walton, Cyril Scott, Elgar, and Bantock. Almost certainly I'd go with Britten as the greatest modern British composer. Still I quite like RVW's symphonies... including the Sea Symphony, the London Symphony, the more pastoral symphonies 3 and 5, but also the more strident 4, etc... I think that being prejudiced against the more "pastoral" or less strident approaches to music is no different than the prejudice against the more experimental and challenging. I find that I can gain pleasure from Vaughan-William's 3rd and 5th or Rachmaninoff's works or Chopin's nocturnes just as well as I might gain the same from Bartok's string quartets or Shostakovitch's outrageous opera, _The Nose_. It all depends upon the mood I am in.


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## starry

I also like to think I have varied taste. I agree that Delius is probably better than Vaughan Williams, and I think Bax's 3rd and in particular Elgar's 1st (one of my favourite symphonies) are better than any of Vaughan William's symphonies. Other less well known one's like Hugh Wood's symphony from 1982 I may like more too. But rather than just looking nationalistically at it (which is too limited a view imo) I'm not sure that Vaughan William's place among 20th century symphonists or composers in general even should be among the first tier. I'm not sayng he is a bad composer, as I have said I think the Tallis Fantasia is a *great* piece. There are probably quite a few other composers in that century who produced a handful of exceptional pieces but they are very largely unknown.

Incidentally those who like the Tallis Fantasia may wish to listen to renaissance music as well as that was the inspiration for his piece.


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## Sid James

I'm glad we have had a reasoned, calm debate about this. I remember having a similar discussion with the now departed Mirror Image, and he basically abused me for daring to voice my opinion.

I agree with Starry, who suggests that RVW was stronger when writing for chamber orchestra. That's why pieces like the _Tallis Fantasia _are so effective. I had the benefit of seeing it played live in August, and it was fascinating to see the interaction between various groups of players, the focus on different soloists constantly changes in that piece. My favourite work in this genre by him is the _Partita for Double String Orchestra_. But I can't stand the endless repetition of _Five Variants of Dives & Lazarus,_ to me it seems just tedious & boring.

For me, the biggest drawback in RVW's symphonies is the lack of stylistic cohesion. Sure, everyone has influences, but it's how you combine them & absorb them in your own style that makes a piece truly unique. I think that in this regard, RVW was hit and miss, and so often just returned to the mysticism-pastoral idyll stereotypes that just seem like tired cliches to me. But I know many people enjoy say his _Symphony No. 5_, and it's a good piece, but I actually like the_ 4th _(I know I'm repeating myself here), in which he seemed to make a unique statement about the world...


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## starry

I can't say I really like the 4th either. It does have plenty of energy but I just haven't found the ideas in it that memorable. That opinion's based on hearing Vaughan William's own recording of it.

I think people are very impressed by the volume of output from a composer often as well. And 9 symphonies links nicely with others like Beethoven etc. But I don't think volume means that much for most composers, what should matter more is quality over quantity. The days when you had an exceptionally gifted composer who was also very prolific were long ago imo.


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## Guest

I have a mixed bag (no complete sets) of RVW by different composers, Orchestras and Composers which I thought were very good on the whole but, I just d/l in 'FLAC' the complete symphonies, Sir Adrian Boult on EMI 8CD set Quite honestly they are in a class by themselves IMHO. The audio is not 100% but the playing and interpretation are fantastic, I have now gone from a "I like him" to "I adore him". In the symphonies I am enthralled with # 6, 7, 8, 9, What have I missed all these years


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## starry

I'm been listening to the Boult recordings. I still don't really like 9. But 8 I like more, it's the first movement that I still have problems with.


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## Romantic Geek

starry said:


> Incidentally those who like the Tallis Fantasia may wish to listen to renaissance music as well as that was the inspiration for his piece.


You mean the 47 second chorale fragment that it was based off of?

No, I find that most of us that like the Tallis Fantasia is the new approach to a traditional fragment. The harmony. The orchestration. Bleeding that 47 second fragment for every musical idea it's worth.


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## starry

Romantic Geek said:


> You mean the 47 second chorale fragment that it was based off of?
> 
> No, I find that most of us that like the Tallis Fantasia is the new approach to a traditional fragment. The harmony. The orchestration. Bleeding that 47 second fragment for every musical idea it's worth.


I was just meaning the meditative sound of renaissance choral music or indeed the Elizabethan fantasia, that was the inspiration for Vaughan Williams in that piece I assume. I wasn't thinking of any specific piece. Wikipedia suggests such music was an inspiration for the piece.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fantasia_on_a_Theme_of_Thomas_Tallis


----------



## Romantic Geek

starry said:


> I was just meaning the meditative sound of renaissance choral music or indeed the Elizabethan fantasia, that was the inspiration for Vaughan Williams in that piece I assume. I wasn't thinking of any specific piece. Wikipedia suggests such music was an inspiration for the piece.
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fantasia_on_a_Theme_of_Thomas_Tallis


But it's based on an actual song...I hope you do realize that.


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## starry

Romantic Geek said:


> But it's based on an actual song...I hope you do realize that.


Renaissance music does seem to have interested Vaughan Williams in general. Of course there will have been other influences on his music as well. I haven't heard the original piece that relates to the Tallis Fantasia yet so I was just talking in general terms.


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## Romantic Geek

starry said:


> Renaissance music does seem to have interested Vaughan Williams in general. Of course there will have been other influences on his music as well. I haven't heard the original piece that relates to the Tallis Fantasia yet so I was just talking in general terms.


Based off of "Why Fum'th The Night"


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## StlukesguildOhio

A composer who truly exalts the beauty of the earth. The magnificence of the city (A London Symphony) to the vast inspiration of ancient landscapes (Symphony No. 3 'Pastoral', Symphony No. 5)

Anyone who thinks Elgar is the best English composer obviously hasn't heard any Vaughan-Williams - The definition of beauty in music. Elgar sounds like old ladies music in comparison. 

Elgar's great choral works are certainly not music for little old ladies. Personally, I lean more toward Delius than either Elgar or Vaughan-Williams... although I quite enjoy them all.


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## Serenade

My avatar shows my favourite piece of all time, but that's not to say there isn't a huge repertoire of Vaughan-Williams that I adore. I can try to list a few from memory but I'm sure I'll forget some!

The Serenade to Music
Tallis Fantasia
Fantasia on Christmas Carols
Five Mystical Songs
Piano Quintet in C Minor
Nocturne and Scherzo
Flos Campi
The Lark Ascending
English Folk Song Suite
Phantasy Quintet
A Sea Symphony
Fantasia on Greensleeves
Linden Lea
On Wenlock Edge
Suite de Ballet No. 1
Romance and Pastorale

...need I go on! He's just the best to me, full stop.


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## starry

StlukesguildOhio said:


> A composer who truly exalts the beauty of the earth. The magnificence of the city (A London Symphony) to the vast inspiration of ancient landscapes (Symphony No. 3 'Pastoral', Symphony No. 5)
> 
> Anyone who thinks Elgar is the best English composer obviously hasn't heard any Vaughan-Williams - The definition of beauty in music. Elgar sounds like old ladies music in comparison.
> 
> Elgar's great choral works are certainly not music for little old ladies. Personally, I lean more toward Delius than either Elgar or Vaughan-Williams... although I quite enjoy them all.


Elgar is actually quite a passionate composer, more so probably than some others mentioned there.


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## Guest

Jess said:


> My avatar shows my favourite piece of all time, but that's not to say there isn't a huge repertoire of Vaughan-Williams that I adore. I can try to list a few from memory but I'm sure I'll forget some!
> 
> The Serenade to Music
> Tallis Fantasia
> Fantasia on Christmas Carols
> Five Mystical Songs
> Piano Quintet in C Minor
> Nocturne and Scherzo
> Flos Campi
> The Lark Ascending
> English Folk Song Suite
> Phantasy Quintet
> A Sea Symphony
> Fantasia on Greensleeves
> Linden Lea
> On Wenlock Edge
> Suite de Ballet No. 1
> Romance and Pastorale
> 
> ...need I go on! He's just the best to me, full stop.


Only one symphony?? what are you thinking of


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## Serenade

Andante said:


> Only one symphony?? what are you thinking of


I don't know them as well as his other stuff. I have the Boult boxed set though, I better get them on my MP3 for the way to work and do some listening!


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## Guest

Try the 7th "sinfonia antartica" a real gutsy one


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## Serenade

Andante said:


> Try the 7th "sinfonia antartica" a real gutsy one


Thanks, I will!


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## Guest

I have recently become a huge Vaughan Williams fan (and just to let some of you know, Vaughan Williams is unhyphenated). Like many, I was introduced to his music through the Tallis Fantasia which is undoubtedly beautiful. I now own the complete symphonies, concertos, and other string works. I will also soon own some of his chamber music. I absolutely love his approach to harmony. His symphonic slow movements (especially from nos. 2 & 5) are some of my favorites out there. I also find it interesting that he was taught by two supreme Brahmsians, Stanford and Parry. Maybe that's why I'm so drawn to his music


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## Falstaft

Andre said:


> I can enjoy these works, but if you listen perceptively, you'll realise that they're not very coherent, the orchestration doesn't match, say Busoni, Ravel or Puccini, who obviously influenced him, and there is very little in the way of thematic development.


Forgive me for this bit of advocacy on behalf of one of my most treasured composers here, Andre. I mean to detract nothing from your fair-minded and thorough assessment of his works - at best, maybe a few of the following observations may change your mind about RVW's style of coherence. 

I do agree that RVW takes a rather different approach to formal coherence than other symphonists, but I don't see any of his symphonies (or other large scale mature works) mis-mash, carefree melodism, or awkward rambling. If the model to be desired is his 4th, with its very classical layout and extreme motivic economy (actually 2 motifs by my reckoning -the adjusted BACH cell and the stacked 4ths), then all his others will surely disappoint. But clearly he has thematic-development chops when he wants to employ them, it wasn't an issue of lack of skill.

In fact, I'd argue that the 5th and 6th also have some quite advanced thematic work happening in them - though not necessarily through the most traditional means. For example, the modal clash between C and D and the resultant ambiguous relationship to F# is setup instantly in the 5th as a sort of "question" which is returned to, inspected at from different angles, and ultimately resolved (provisionally in 1st mvt, where it's shown to be a kind of disguised plagal motion in G-major, and more definitively in 4th). It's not telegraphed, but very much at play. Also, a rather pregnant semitonal relationship is emerges in the dev. section of the 1st movement as well, which rears its head in the scherzo, clouds the otherwise sublime "Romanza" mvt, and is liquidated in the final passacaglia. There is a great affinity to Sibelius' procedures here, part of the reason I think the two composers admired each-other.

A similar, if not more ingenuous cyclical "issue" motivates a large amount of the business of the 6th -- here the vacillation between F-maj and E-min, once again "posed" right at the onset, but this time not resolved, but left dangling in a very eerie way at the last movement's conclusion (it directs large parts of the harmonic motion of the 2nd mvt too, IIRC). Not thematic development in the normal sense, though for my money it's a lot more profound a means of unifying a symphony than making sure subject area 1 is busted up and reassembled in the right way before the recap, or something even more prosaic. (Incidentally, I think the better comparison here is to the fugal movement of Bartok's _Music for S,C, and _P; quiet haziness may link it to Tchaik or Busoni, but I think the masterful counterpoint and emotional greyness points more to the Hungarian than anyone else.

Now it's certainly true that other symphonies of his lack the developmental energy of other major C19-20 composers. And, with the case of Nos. 1,3, and 7, I think that's half the point; especially with 3, RVW was trying something very different, which was to create a kind of static or textural alternative to the enforced dynamism of the Germanic tradition, which he found anathema. The Ravel connection, which you rightfully mention, goes even deeper I think -- _The Pastoral_ seems most akin to his _Tombeau de Couperin_, both as kinds of quiet, withdrawn elegies to the fallen of WWI, though with moments where the facade of composer slips away just so slightly, and you see how anguished these musical tombstones really are.

The long emotional arc of the _London Symphony_ can be enormously powerful if one goes in with the right attitude, granting that it clearly prefers melody over developing variation (even more so in the original version). As for Nos. 8 and 9 -- they're so idiosyncratic I'm not sure where to begin!

It strikes me that, like Mahler (whom I'm sure RVW was *no* fan of), RVWs symphonies are very distinct individuals that would suffer no movement mismatching. Whether this is an adequate grounds for labeling them "coherent" I don't know, though VW's style shines through all of them strongly enough that I don't think he was just "trying out something new" each time he set out on a new symphony. For example:



Elgarian said:


> I noticed yesterday though, that one particular sequence of four notes seemed curiously familiar, generating a kind of 'English pastoral' mood...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> They are, I believe, the same notes that form part of a recurring sequence in the first movement of Vaughan Williams's 5th symphony. Am I right?


Very nice! I can't claim to know the specific provenance of this little melody, but I can say that it recurs in more than one RVW composition. It's central to the final movement of his Pastoral (think of that unison string climax, or the general motivic makeup of the soprano vocalise) as well as what you pointed out in the 5th; I'm also fairly certain it pops up in the monger-calls within the London symphony somewhere. The oboe opening of his _Flos Campi_ is basically the same idea, as is the sailor material from the first movement of the Antarctica. I could come up with some more examples with more time. There other RVW "signature" turns of phrase and harmony that repeatedly crop up in varying guises in his output, much like Faure, Berg or Shostakovich. Discovering them is one of the many joys of spending time with his music


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## Rondo

Does anyone know of a re-mastered Williams/Boult SET in which all of the performances do not sound as if I'm listening to music in sepia tone? I have the 3rd and 5th on EMI and they sound terrific, but what I've heard from the set I've found (same label) the quality isn't as good.


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## jives11

I think Boult recorded the complete VW symphonies a number of times, originally for DECCA. Those are wonderful, but the recordings are older and thinner sounding. I think the Boult EMI recordings were in the late 60's so would expect the EMI sound to be pretty good. I have them, though I tend to listen to the later Handley EMI recordings. Vernon Handley was a protege of Sir Adrian Boult, but I think in most cases he bests his old boss to my ears - Elgar 2 a case in point.

BTW There is a very good recording of the VW Symphony 8 by Barbirolli with the Hallé Orchestra . It's been out on EMI Phoenixa , though was originally a Pye recording from 1957. As I recall Pye actually used the Mercury team to record this, so the recording is the real Mercury living presence sound . I see it's now available on Dutton - even better news, coupled with a recording of the 2nd symphony
http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2002/apr02/RVW28.htm


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## Nix

Falstaft said:


> Very nice! I can't claim to know the specific provenance of this little melody, but I can say that it recurs in more than one RVW composition. It's central to the final movement of his Pastoral (think of that unison string climax, or the general motivic makeup of the soprano vocalise) as well as what you pointed out in the 5th; I'm also fairly certain it pops up in the monger-calls within the London symphony somewhere. The oboe opening of his _Flos Campi_ is basically the same idea, as is the sailor material from the first movement of the Antarctica. I could come up with some more examples with more time. There other RVW "signature" turns of phrase and harmony that repeatedly crop up in varying guises in his output, much like Faure, Berg or Shostakovich. Discovering them is one of the many joys of spending time with his music


A similar motif also opens "In Fen Country" one of his very first compositions.


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## maestro267

All of his symphonies are quite different from each other, yet you can still tell that they were composed by Vaughan Williams. One of the great British symphony cycles, imo.


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## Huilunsoittaja

Vaughan-Williams has some French Impressionist influence, does he not? His piece "In the Fen Country" is actually subtitled "Symphonic Impression," not "Symphonic Poem" or whatever.


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## ahansen_cello

Vaughan Williams is, by far, my favorite composer. A few years ago I did a research project (back in my college days) and discovered a little known piece of RVW's written for cello and orchestra. 'The Fantasia on Sussex Folk Tunes' is now one of my favorite pieces (especially after playing it!) Julian Lloyd Webber has the only recording available of it, and it's on youtube. You can listen to it here.


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## Roberto

> All Art is subjective, how can it be anything else?


Re this and related comments above, I just cannot accept this as an adequate statement.

It is like saying that morality is subjective.

It is one of the things that is wrong with the age in which we live, that so many people think that the judgement of art can be merely subjective. There are aesthetic rules and skills... there is good and bad....

If this were not so, what chaos would be the result


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## Bix

Elgarian said:


> What hasn't been mentioned yet (and I'm surprised at myself for not doing so) is his Phantasy Quintet, not only because it's so utterly and unmistakably Vaughan Williams, but because the third movement is surely one of the loveliest, gentlest, most pastoral, and most deliciously melodic 3 minutes' worth of music that I know.


ah the Alla Sarabanda lento - i love your description


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## jurianbai

ok, need to bump this composer up.
base on observation, he was least talk about.

I recommend his "Academica" Violin concerto.


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## Guest

I'm planning on learning his Piano Concerto for a competition in November. It's a great piece that nobody knows (including my teacher).


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## suffolkcoastal

Good luck with it Jeff. It is a fiendishly difficult piece to pull off. There are a couple of good recordings, especially the one by Piers Lane. It was performed at the 2008 proms by Ashley Wash who sadly crucified it and the orchestral accompaniment was poor too, his recording is a bit better but not up to scratch IMO. I wouldn't be afraid to let the emotions flow in the central section of the Romanza and make sure the piano figuration at the opening of the Toccata really drives the music forward. Busoni is the model for a lot of the piano writing, particularly his Bach transcriptions which RVW loved. Bartok was also a great admirer of the concerto.


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## Vaneyes

Cheers to the Piers Lane RVW PC mention. Available inexpensively, with good couplings. :tiphat:

View attachment 4545


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## Tero

I'm a Sibelius fan. Since RVW was at least in favor of Sibelius, looked into his works. Not exactly the same reaction as Sibelius for me, but it is certainly the same century. Have picked up BBC orchestra symphony box. Six is working well for me. Prviously I had only a 2CD set.


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## Jeremy Marchant

Not a huge fan - _Job _is by far my favourite of his works.

I've sung his G minor mass and _Towards the unknown region._
The mass is the epitome of dullness and _Towards_... manages to take Whitman's ecstatic vision of heaven and turns it into a sort of Edwardian gentleman's tea party with cucumber sandwiches.


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## Tero

Jeremy Marchant said:


> Not a huge fan - _Job _is by far my favourite of his works.
> 
> I've sung his G minor mass and _Towards the unknown region._
> The mass is the epitome of dullness and _Towards_... manages to take Whitman's ecstatic vision of heaven and turns it into a sort of Edwardian gentleman's tea party with cucumber sandwiches.


Do you do CD reviews? Please do, that was special. Try Amazon reviews.


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## Jeremy Marchant

Tero said:


> Do you do CD reviews? Please do, that was special. Try Amazon reviews.


Thank you. I write for _Fanfare _- reviews and interviews. I'm currently writing up an interview with Mari Takano, the Japanese composer.


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## Ravndal

Never heard anything of this guy before. But... this music is extremely beautiful! Listening to "Fantasia On Greensleeves".


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## Guest

Ravndal said:


> Never heard anything of this guy before. But... this music is extremely beautiful! Listening to "Fantasia On Greensleeves".


Any newcomers to RVW should invariably start with the Fantasia on a Theme by Thomas Tallis and The Lark Ascending. The Second and Fifth Symphonies should follow.


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## samurai

@ Jeff N. Exactly what I was going to recommend to our fellow member for a nice intro to Ralph Vaughan Williams; even as I type this, I am listening to his evocative *London Symphony *to be followed by the *Pastoral {Symphony No.3}. *His *Symphony No.5* is a favorite of mine as well. I also believe that no exposure to his work is complete without experiencing *Fantasia on a Theme by Thomas Tallis*.


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## Guest

Tero said:


> I'm a Sibelius fan. Since RVW was at least in favor of Sibelius, looked into his works. Not exactly the same reaction as Sibelius for me, but it is certainly the same century. Have picked up BBC orchestra symphony box. Six is working well for me. Prviously I had only a 2CD set.


His 6th is a favorite of mine but a hard one to start your RVW adventure with, keep with him it will pay dividend in the end. :tiphat:


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## Ravndal

Thanks guys


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## DrKilroy

Vaughan Williams is one of my favourite composers.  I recently discovered his symphonies and Sinfonia antartica and The Sea Symphony are my favourites. 

Best regards, Dr


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## Vesteralen

DrKilroy said:


> Vaughan Williams is one of my favourite composers.  I recently discovered his symphonies and Sinfonia antartica and The Sea Symphony are my favourites.
> 
> Best regards, Dr


"A Sea Symphony" is a lot more rewarding than it might appear at first.

I was reminded of its emotional impact recently when watching the film "O Thou Transcendent". The Sea Symphony excerpts in this documentary were extremely moving.


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## DrKilroy

Thank you for writing. 

I have listened to A Sea Symphony quite many times recently as I spend a lot of time at my granny's house, where A Sean Symphony CD is the only one available, when it comes to RVW symphonies. I like the first movement the most, definitely. It is quite long, but not dragging, plus it has many epic, beautiful or uplifting moments. Apart from the introduction, the "Today A Rude Brief Recitative" section is one of my favourites - it reminds me of a busy English haven. I also like the scherzo, though the diversity of moods is lesser. I have not fully explored the second movement yet, but I am on a good way.  The last movement is incomprehensible for me at the moment - it is very long and I do not find the musical material memorable enough. However, I will try to find something I like in it.  Perhaps I need more sessions of listening in case of such longer pieces.

Best regards, Dr


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## Vaneyes

It's been a while, so I better go post a RVW symphonic mini-fest on the listening thread-- Nos. 3 & 4 w. Previn (RCA), 5 w. Handley (EMI), 6 & 9 w. A. Davis (Teldec).


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## Wandering

I remember listening to a vinyl of his 7th symph. _Antarctica_ way back as a teen. I remember it being rather dull to a young impatient listener, there is a huge climatic moment in the work that I found very striking. Simply haven't heard much of the composer unfortunately.

I know he'd made some snide comments of Mahler.

I really enjoy his usage of English folk, or atleast what I've heard of it. The Lark Ascending is breath-taking. The film score to the recent 'War Horse' sort of screams Vaughn Williams. I need to check more of this composer out. So much music, so little time.


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## techniquest

> I remember listening to a vinyl of his 7th symph. Antarctica way back as a teen. I remember it being rather dull to a young impatient listener, there is a huge climatic moment in the work that I found very striking. Simply haven't heard much of the composer unfortunately.


Dull...Dull? I remember that the Sinfonia Antartica was one of the most important pieces that were the soundtrack to my teenage years (I know, it was a rather odd time of my life...). I would recommend anyone to give it a listen - it is evocative and in so many ways. That big climactic moment in the work would, I bet, be during the 3rd movement ("Landscape") with the whopping great tam-tam crash and the full organ & orchestra chords - it's best _by far_ in the Handley / RLivPO recording. on EMI/CfP.


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## moody

Jeremy Marchant said:


> Not a huge fan - _Job _is by far my favourite of his works.
> 
> I've sung his G minor mass and _Towards the unknown region._
> The mass is the epitome of dullness and _Towards_... manages to take Whitman's ecstatic vision of heaven and turns it into a sort of Edwardian gentleman's tea party with cucumber sandwiches.


Remind me not to read Fanfare if this is an example of your work.


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## Wandering

techniquest said:


> Dull...Dull? I remember that the Sinfonia Antartica was one of the most important pieces that were the soundtrack to my teenage years (I know, it was a rather odd time of my life...). I would recommend anyone to give it a listen - it is evocative and in so many ways. That big climactic moment in the work would, I bet, be during the 3rd movement ("Landscape") with the whopping great tam-tam crash and the full organ & orchestra chords - it's best _by far_ in the Handley / RLivPO recording. on EMI/CfP.


Thanks for giving me the where-abouts of that moment I'd mentioned, I'll look it up via youtube.


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## techniquest

Here you are. The big bit starts at 8:25 - Enjoy


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## Castleman

Vaughan Williams has been my favorite composer all my adult life.
My first exposure was the ever-popular Fantasia on a Theme.
I've delved into most (all?) of his string work and all the pastoral-type symphonies.
I've played his music hundreds if not thousands of times and still enjoy it as much today as the very first time - if not more!


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## Neo Romanza

Castleman said:


> Vaughan Williams has been my favorite composer all my adult life.
> My first exposure was the ever-popular Fantasia on a Theme.
> I've delved into most (all?) of his string work and all the pastoral-type symphonies.
> I've played his music hundreds if not thousands of times and still enjoy it as much today as the very first time - if not more!


What's your opinion of _Symphonies 4 & 6_? For me, these are absolutely astonishing works. They also reveal a _different_ Vaughan Williams than we're accustomed to hearing.


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## Guest

If I may, #6 is a fantastic work and a long time favourite of mine


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## starthrower

The oboe concerto by Maurice Bourgue on the Nimbus label is superb!


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## Blake

I can dig on some Ralphy. Beautiful, beautiful music.


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## poptart

Just a heads up for all you RVW fans, this BBC documentary is well worth a watch:


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## Vaneyes

Thanks, poptart. I trust Foxy's in it. :tiphat:

View attachment 29308
1942


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## Castleman

Neo Romanza said:


> What's your opinion of _Symphonies 4 & 6_? For me, these are absolutely astonishing works. They also reveal a _different_ Vaughan Williams than we're accustomed to hearing.


So sorry for not getting back to you sooner - looks like I haven't been around here lately.
Anyway, 4 and 6 were never my favs. I've always listened to the more pastoral symphonies (and 7, which although not pastoral, is quite haunting.)
I really do need to give 4 & 6 a good listen though.


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## Cheyenne

Six is my favorite of his symphonies - I really recommend it.

I recently listened to his song cycle _Songs of Travel_: wonderful! The piano version is preferable but the orchestrated version, part of which was done by Vaughan Williams himself and part of which was done by his assistant, Roy Douglas , is also worth a listen. Incidentally, here is an interview with Roy Douglas in which he comments on Vaughan Williams and his illegible writing:






Roy Douglas was born in 1907 and is still alive!


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## MagneticGhost

Now here's a thing of beauty. SimonNZ recommended this to me. A beautiful collection of Vaughan Williams' Choral Music inc some rarities. Well worth adding to your RVW collection.


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## Berlioznestpasmort

What a delight to find in this thread such love for VW (as Bax called him - very funny, as he was a large man). Mostly love, in any case! Yet surprisingly little mention of his _Serenade to Music _ (other than the seemingly departed "Serenade" whose favorite music it was and so she adopted it as her avatar, and I believe one other mention in someone's VW's Greatest Hits). It was sufficiently wonderful to make Rachmaninoff weep at its premiere. And so it has me, occasionally. What does our noble assembly think of it and what is your preferred recording? I'm partial to the Corydon Singers on Hyperion (1990), but would be glad to be "set straight."


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## Marschallin Blair

. . . and what a delight to find in this thread someone who gives a damn enough to mention the Serenade to Music by name!















Cheers, Berlioznestpasmort.

I incline to the Handley on EMI (coupled with the Sinfonia Antarctica; and what a deal THAT is) and the Hickox on Chandos. Apples and screwdrivers, but both beautifully performed, sung, and recorded.


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## Marschallin Blair

poptart said:


> Just a heads up for all you RVW fans, this BBC documentary is well worth a watch:


Bless you. I already have it.


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## MagneticGhost

I love the Serenade to Music. That Vernon Handley pairing with Sinfonia Antartica has been absolutely played to death in my collection.


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## Berlioznestpasmort

Oh good. Some purchases are going to be made. Thank you!


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## Marschallin Blair

starthrower said:


> The oboe concerto by Maurice Bourgue on the Nimbus label is superb!


Gigantic howling blockhead curses of blonde-moment oversight!!!!-- THANKS!! I have to hear it. That label has good sounding recordings; like with the three William Mathias symphonies and of course the Delius Florida Suite.

Merci beau coup.


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## Marschallin Blair

MagneticGhost said:


> I love the Serenade to Music. That Vernon Handley pairing with Sinfonia Antartica has been absolutely played to death in my collection.


You RULE.  That disc is so much fun: ultimate adventure with the Sinfonia Antarctica and halcyonic bliss with the Serenade to Music. What a deal! And for a pittance.


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## Marschallin Blair

Vaneyes said:


> Thanks, poptart. I trust Foxy's in it. :tiphat:
> 
> View attachment 29308
> 1942


Yeah! Foxy!-- I've always loved that picture.


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## Marschallin Blair

The blond hard drive is starting to work, sputtering along: <Speak, Memory!>. . . I forgot to mention; 'honorably' mention-- the great, absolutely FANTASTIC Boult/LPO "Serenade to Music":


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## Berlioznestpasmort

Marschallin Blair said:


> The blond hard drive is starting to work, sputtering along: <Speak, Memory!>. . . I forgot to mention; 'honorably' mention-- the great, absolutely FANTASTIC Boult/LPO "Serenade to Music":
> 
> NOW, I'm excited! Thanks.


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## Marschallin Blair

MagneticGhost said:


> I love the Serenade to Music. That Vernon Handley pairing with Sinfonia Antartica has been absolutely played to death in my collection.











I love EMI's choice of Alison Hargan for the soprano in the first cut; I love Handley's pacing and his handling of the horns in the "Landscape" movement. Tremendous landscape painting; epic adventure.


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## neoshredder

Just getting into his Symphonies. Already a fan of his Orchestral Works. Now listening to Symphony 1. 
http://www.amazon.com/Vaughan-Willi...1&keywords=Vaughan+WIlliams+Symphonies+Previn


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## DrKilroy

Good luck! I hope the First won't put you down, though. It is the most imperfect of the nine, but still, it doesn't prevent it from being a favourite of many. As far as I am concerned, the symphony has many great moments throughout, but it requires repeated listenings to appreciate it as a whole. The finale will still strike you as lenghty, however. 

Best regards, Dr


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## neoshredder

Yeah a complete vocal symphony. Or even a choir symphony. Wasn't expecting that.


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## samurai

neoshredder said:


> Yeah a complete vocal symphony. Or even a choir symphony. Wasn't expecting that.


Please sample his *Seventh {"Sinfonia Antartica"}*--if you haven't already--as it has "wordless" vocals, much as Nielsen's *Third {"Sinfonia espansiva"}. *They are quite haunting and beautiful, and, for someone like myself who doesn't really like choral music, just right.


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## Haydn man

Marschallin Blair said:


> View attachment 34991
> 
> 
> I love EMI's choice of Alison Hargan for the soprano in the first cut; I love Handley's pacing and his handling of the horns in the "Landscape" movement. Tremendous landscape painting; epic adventure.


Handley was a superb conductor with VW and the recordings you mention are top notch and have given me much pleasure


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## Vaneyes

*RVW* and *Ravel* friendship.

http://www.theguardian.com/music/to...-vaughan-williams-friendship-radio3-ravel-day


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## tahnak

Heard it for the second time today. It is solemn and marvellous


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## Avey

I heard _Flos Campi_ for the first time today. What a majestic piece. I am honestly embarassed that I have never heard the piece before. Absolutely fantastic, and another example of *R.V.W.*'s celestial and nostalgic tone.

I also appreciate the preceding post with _Dives and Lazarus_, which is equally mesmerizing, and moving immediately into my collection.


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## chalkpie

I've been diving into my Boult EMI set over the past week or so. REALLY starting to love the 8th, especially the 3rd movement. The 9th is also coming to life for me. I am spinning the London Symph with Haitink/London Phil as I type, great sound - although I think the Boult speaks to me more. Serenade to Music is also glorious.


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## Vaneyes

R.I.P. Hayley Cropper, and hello to "The Lark".

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...1490//A//ns_mchannel=rss//A//ns_campaign=1490


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## senza sordino

Possibly already posted within this thread, but can anyone recommend a symphony cycle of RVW? I don't know his symphonies well, 2 and 3 only marginally well. I'd like to get to know the RVW symphonies better.


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## Vaneyes

senza sordino said:


> Possibly already posted within this thread, but *can anyone recommend a symphony cycle of RVW?* I don't know his symphonies well, 2 and 3 only marginally well. I'd like to get to know the RVW symphonies better.


For fine performances and updated sound. :tiphat:

View attachment 40205


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## chalkpie

senza sordino said:


> Possibly already posted within this thread, but can anyone recommend a symphony cycle of RVW? I don't know his symphonies well, 2 and 3 only marginally well. I'd like to get to know the RVW symphonies better.


Funny, *JUST* ordered this set about 3 minutes ago from a store on ebay. $45.50 with shipping/30 CD's:









This set includes the Vernon Handley/Royal Liverpool Philharmonic set of symphonies. I'm sure folks who own this (hopefully) will chime in on specifics, but the repuation of Handley is that he gets ultra-high marks in both the performance and sonics department. I'm thinking easily a Top 5 contender for definitive RVW Symphony recordings. I've heard a few complete listens on YT and they sounded killer. Really can't wait to sink my teeth into this set as a whole - riding a huge RVW wave right now. Just did a huge Sibeliusfest, now it's Ralph's turn.

Now I do own Boult II (EMI/analog stereo) and Haitink/London Philharmonic (EMI/digital). Gun to my head - shoot me - because I couldn't/wouldn't part with either. Total apples/oranges, but both diamonds. Boult has the nostalgic/historic/warm/passionate/etc vibe happening and the Haitink has the deeper/better playing/sonics/modern/etc feel, so they both sell me on different things. Both of these readings teach me different things about what Ralph wrote on those pages. I honestly feel content with these 2 versions, but being as O/CD as I am, I will probably seek out Boult I (mono), Previn, and maybe the Bakels/Daniels (Naxos) someday :cheers:

In any event, I'm not sure which era floats your boat, but largely I am a 20th Century guy (in most cases) and these symphonies I would easily place alongside my other favorites which I consider to be the masterpieces of the genre: Mahler, Shostakovich, Sibelius, Ives, Lutoslawski, Neilsen, Bruckner, Schnittke, Prokofiev, W Schuman, Copland, etc. VERY special compositions that have just about every style imaginable, even delving into heavy dissonance. I guarantee if you spin each one about 5 times, you will be hooked. Enjoy and let us know.


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## Guest

I like Boult on EMI, but it's also fun to have the original version of No. 2 (believe it's Hickox/Chandos, could be wrong).


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## DrKilroy

Boult is the standard version usually, but I am happy owning only the Handley set. It is hard to be specific as I am extremely satisfied with these recordings. You could probably find a better Sea Symphony, though (not that this one is bad). The Sinfonia antartica must be hard to beat, however.


Best regards, Dr


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## Avey

Is everyone aware of RVW's _Suite for Viola_? Not sure if I was slow to get a hold of this piece.

I don't know how I stumbled upon it, but it quickly became one of my favorite works of his. It's all RVW-like wrapped in a chamber setting, headed by the viola, which, admittedly, suits his nostalgic, folk sound. Quite melancholic, though cathartic - like much of his work.


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## Cosmos

I just listened to his third symphony...wow where has this guy been living my whole life? 

I wasn't too fond of his sea symphony and my interest decreased. Obviously I need to reevaluate.

Now I want to go and listen to all his symphonies. Any performance recommendations?


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## satoru

senza sordino said:


> Possibly already posted within this thread, but can anyone recommend a symphony cycle of RVW? I don't know his symphonies well, 2 and 3 only marginally well. I'd like to get to know the RVW symphonies better.


 Sorry for bringing up an old post. Boult, who performed recorded the cycle twice, first with Decca and then with EMI. Decca recordings are mostly in mono (8th and 9th are in stereo), but many people think it's one of the best. The composer himself supervised the recording session (except the 9th). Believe it or not, you can buy this cycle (MP3 version) for $5.99 from Amazon (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B006N38TMY/ref=oh_aui_d_detailpage_o03_?ie=UTF8&psc=1). All of the tracks (except one) matched to tracks on iTunes, so I know for sure these are Decca Boult recordings. EMI series is also highly praised.

For modern recordings, Hickox on Chandos are quite good, but alas, it's missing a couple of symphonies. Previn recorded the whole cycle with LSO on RCA, which are recommended, too. Others I own are Handley, Haitink, and Bryden Thomson. Among these, I like Thomson cycle.

I have an feeling that all of the cycles clear minimum quality threshold, and won't be a waste of money. Could it be the power of RVW's music?


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## revdrdave

Cosmos said:


> I just listened to his third symphony...wow where has this guy been living my whole life?
> 
> I wasn't too fond of his sea symphony and my interest decreased. Obviously I need to reevaluate.
> 
> Now I want to go and listen to all his symphonies. Any performance recommendations?


Yes--be sure to hear Barbirolli and the Philharmonia (EMI) in the Fifth (every other performance I've heard takes the piece, especially the transformative closing pages, too fast) and the Hickox/LSO (Chandos) performance of the original version of the Second, which has everything to love about the revised version only more of it. Glorious stuff.


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## Richannes Wrahms

Cosmos said:


> I just listened to his third symphony...wow where has this guy been living my whole life?
> 
> I wasn't too fond of his sea symphony and my interest decreased. Obviously I need to reevaluate.
> 
> Now I want to go and listen to all his symphonies. Any performance recommendations?


I think the third is one of his best, along with the fourth and eighth. The more popular fifth would be better if it were loyal to the 'zen' aesthetic of the beginning (like Mahler's 9th is).


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## Plumjam

Absolutely love VW. I think he's particularly resonant if, like me, you live in the English countryside.

Here's a video I made a while back, of one of his most beautiful pieces. Third movement (Romanza) of his 5th Symphony. The visual theme is a roughly chronological tribute to Great Britain:


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## Vaneyes

Cosmos said:


> I just listened to his third symphony...wow where has this guy been living my whole life?
> 
> I wasn't too fond of his sea symphony and my interest decreased. Obviously I need to reevaluate.
> 
> Now I want to go and listen to all his symphonies. Any performance recommendations?


I'm also lukewarm on some of the symphonies, such as 1, 2, 7, 8. But there's plenty left to enjoy. 

For a symphonic set that exudes fine performance and sound, I recommend BBCSO/A. Davis (Warner, 1990 - '96). The included extras are equally well-produced. Such as, "Job", and "Tallis", "Lark", with Tasmin Little accompanying.:tiphat:


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## Vaneyes

Timely, Tom Service expounding on RVW's 3rd. Of his recommended recs. Previn's suits me the best.:tiphat:

http://www.theguardian.com/music/to...hony-guide-vaughan-williams-pastoral-symphony


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## Dirge

Ralph VAUGHAN WILLIAMS: _Merciless Beauty_ (1921)
:: Langridge, Endellion String Quartet (minus violist) [EMI]

These three little pieces for voice and string trio (two violins & cello) are settings of rondels once attributed to Chaucer but now believed to be mis-attributed to Chaucer. (This work should not be confused with _Pierrot lunaire_, settings of rondels also not by Chaucer.) "Those strange cold Chaucer Rondels," as Simona Pakenham describes them, are indeed strange and cold, especially by Vaughan Williams standards, but they are beautifully strange and cold. The first two songs are expressive in a flowing but lyrically undulating sort of way that puts everything on the singer's phrasing agility and way with words-there's no cover for a less-than-excellent singer to hide behind here. The string writing of the rhythmically pointed and upbeat final song makes me think ahead to the Quodlibet from John Cage's String Quartet in Four Parts (1950), and the work as a whole may have inspired Julián Orbón's nifty _Tres cantigas del rey_ (1960), a sort of neo-Spanish Renaissance counterpart to _Merciless Beauty_.

There are not too many recordings of these relatively unpopular songs, but that's of no consequence so long as the Philip Langridge recording is available. Langridge is in superb form throughout, making even the likes of Ian Partridge and Mark Ainsley sound a bit out of kilter by comparison, and the members of the Endellion String Quartet complement him perfectly.


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## Avey

Quick, favorite symphony?

The Fifth. _Duuhhhh_.

Britten was *wrong*.


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## MoonlightSonata

Vaneyes said:


> I'm also lukewarm on some of the symphonies, such as 1, 2, 7, 8. But there's plenty left to enjoy.
> 
> For a symphonic set that exudes fine performance and sound, I recommend BBCSO/A. Davis (Warner, 1990 - '96). The included extras are equally well-produced. Such as, "Job", and "Tallis", "Lark", with Tasmin Little accompanying.:tiphat:


I _need_ to get that...


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## starthrower

^^^
Had him mixed up with Sir Colin Davis.


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## brotagonist

Vaneyes said: "I'm also lukewarm on some of the symphonies, such as 1, 2, 7, 8. But there's plenty left to enjoy. "

That is settling  I just listened to A Sea Symphony (aka Symphony 1, all 70 minutes of it) and I found it rather bland. We had the London Symphony (aka #2) a few months back on SS and I wasn't much taken with it, either. Yet, I was quite positive on Symphonia antartica (#7, likely because of the lavish use of percussion, that reminded me of Messiaen) and I have a recording of Symphony 5 that I vascillate on, but tend to the positive. I read the #4 (and #6?) is more dissonant, so I would probably be more drawn to it. Also, it is said that #9 was not well received when it came out, but has since been declared his masterwork (I suspect I could like that one, then, too). I guess I'll have to give those a listen


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## Becca

brotagonist said:


> I read the #4 (and #6?) is more dissonant, so I would probably be more drawn to it. Also, it is said that #9 was not well received when it came out, but has since been declared his masterwork (I suspect I could like that one, then, too). I guess I'll have to give those a listen


I wouldn't use the word 'dissonant' for the 4th but it is definitely more angry than the 2nd, 3rd and 5th, perhaps discordant comes a bit closer to it. The 6th seems to pick up where the 4th left off but has one of the most unusual last movements in that the dynamic never rises about a _pp_. The 8th is an interesting work and (to me at least) seems have the same place in the RVW symphonies as does Beethoven's 8th, i.e. a bit playful, particularly in the orchestration. Given your comments about the 7th, you will probably like it because the 4th movement, according to RVW, 'commandeers all the available hitting instruments which can make definite notes.'


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## Dim7

I'm pretty sure "discordant" and "dissonant" are synonyms...


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## Strange Magic

Odd that V-W was sent off to study for a while under Ravel; evidently neither man could figure out what they might have in common.


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## Mahlerian

Strange Magic said:


> Odd that V-W was sent off to study for a while under Ravel; evidently neither man could figure out what they might have in common.


A propensity towards the mixolydian mode?


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## Dim7

Avoidance of leading tones (might be wrong about that), diatonic modality in general?


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## Strange Magic

Supposedly to pick up pointers on orchestration, according to one source. Another says that, after advising V-W to write a small minuet in the style of Mozart, and being rebuked for the suggestion, Ravel instead then steered his pupil away from "the heavy contrapuntal Teutonic manner".


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## brotagonist

I just finished listening to RVW' Symphony 9 (both Boult and Handley) and am presently hearing Symphony 8 (Manze). The later symphonies definitely appeal to me more


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## Richannes Wrahms

I think the 9th is grossly overorchestrated, and the inspiration there is rather uneven.


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## brotagonist

I think it might be my favourite, so far. I am presently listening to #4, which is quite appealing, too. #8 seemed rather light and nebulous, on first listening. Still, I think I am getting a much more positive impression. I still need to hear #3, #6 and relisten to #7, which I liked, but heard many months ago.


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## Becca

brotagonist said:


> I think it might be my favourite, so far. I am presently listening to #4, which is quite appealing, too. #8 seemed rather light and nebulous, on first listening. Still, I think I am getting a much more positive impression. I still need to hear #3, #6 and relisten to #7, which I liked, but heard many months ago.


Give the original 1913 version of the 2nd a try, there is at least 20 minutes of music that RVW deleted in his revisions. Yes the end result is structurally tighter but at the loss of some fascinating music, particularly in the slow movement.


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## Strange Magic

Mahlerian said:


> A propensity towards the mixolydian mode?


As an aside, Respighi's _Concerto in Modo Misolidio_, for piano and orchestra is an interesting work, but one needing severe pruning in my opinion. It might make, with such editing, a fine piece of some 20 minutes duration.


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## Pat Fairlea

I would be interested to hear what people think about this composer, so often written off as 'rustic' and 'quintessentially English'. 

I find VW's music richly complex, atmospheric, and far more diverse than he is often said to be. Sometimes his experimentation went off in odd directions (Tuba Concerto, Romance for Harmonica...) and he was never at his best writing for the piano. But for voice and for orchestra, especially string orchestra, VW wrote some of the 20th century's most lasting works. 

That's my view, anyway. What do you all think?


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## Kivimees

Pat Fairlea said:


> I would be interested to hear what people think about this composer, so often written off as 'rustic' and 'quintessentially English'.


I would tend to praise RVW for being 'rustic' and 'quintessentially English'. :tiphat:


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## Becca

Pat Fairlea said:


> I would be interested to hear what people think about this composer, so often written off as 'rustic' and 'quintessentially English'.
> 
> I find VW's music richly complex, atmospheric, and far more diverse than he is often said to be. Sometimes his experimentation went off in odd directions (Tuba Concerto, Romance for Harmonica...) and he was never at his best writing for the piano. But for voice and for orchestra, especially string orchestra, VW wrote some of the 20th century's most lasting works.
> 
> That's my view, anyway. What do you all think?


And then there are his operas. While _Sir John in Love_ may not reach the level of Verdi's _Falstaff_, it is an absolute delight from start to finish and one of those works where you walk away with about half a dozen tunes rattling through your brain!


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## Vaneyes

Pat Fairlea said:


> I would be interested to hear what people think about this composer, so often written off as 'rustic' and 'quintessentially English'.
> 
> I find VW's music richly complex, atmospheric, and far more diverse than he is often said to be. Sometimes his experimentation went off in odd directions (Tuba Concerto, Romance for Harmonica...) and he was never at his best writing for the piano. But for voice and for orchestra, especially string orchestra, VW wrote some of the 20th century's most lasting works.
> 
> That's my view, anyway. What do you all think?


I'm in the small minority preferring his piano concerto, orchestral poems, and chamber. Other than No. 9, his symphonies tend to get lost or stay too long. Cheers! :tiphat:


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## Pat Fairlea

Hugh the Drover? Saw it done once on a too-small stage. The village dance scene was an essay in near-disaster as one singer after another teetered on the edge.


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## Avey

Vaneyes said:


> ...Other than No. 9, his symphonies tend to get lost or stay too long. ...


...well then ...

I am going to hang out with VW in the tavern until he leaves. Or hike for the day in the hills. Or sit _and watch a cow_. I prefer that over worrying about what else I have to do.


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## flamencosketches

Well, I love the Tallis Fantasia, like Lark Ascending. Where to go from here? I'm considering going for Haitink's recording of the 5th symphony.


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## Steerpike

Pat Fairlea said:


> I would be interested to hear what people think about this composer, so often written off as 'rustic' and 'quintessentially English'.
> 
> I find VW's music richly complex, atmospheric, and far more diverse than he is often said to be. Sometimes his experimentation went off in odd directions (Tuba Concerto, Romance for Harmonica...) and he was never at his best writing for the piano. But for voice and for orchestra, especially string orchestra, VW wrote some of the 20th century's most lasting works.
> 
> That's my view, anyway. What do you all think?


I think his reputation for being 'rustic' probably comes from some of his shorter orchestral works, many of which took inspiration from English folk tunes (of which he was an avid collector).

England was often portrayed as 'the land without music' in the latter part of the 19th century, and such English composers as there were tended to be too much influenced by what was happening overseas, and particularly by Austrian and German music. Vaughan Williams made it his mission to find a voice for English music, so he would be very happy to be described as 'quintessentially English': it would be evidence that he had succeeded.

There is a huge range to his work, typified by the variety to be found in his symphonic output. He remains, in my view, England's greatest composer.


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## CnC Bartok

Steerpike said:


> There is a huge range to his work, typified by the variety to be found in his symphonic output. He remains, in my view, England's greatest composer.


Couldn't agree more!


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## flamencosketches

Listened to a bit of the 4th symphony on break at work... this composer was something special for sure. I think I'm going to get Haitink's CD of the 5th symphony.


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## paulbest

Bach said:


> A composer who truly exalts the beauty of the earth. The magnificence of the city (A London Symphony) to the vast inspiration of ancient landscapes (Symphony No. 3 'Pastoral', Symphony No. 5)
> 
> Anyone who thinks Elgar is the best English composer obviously hasn't heard any Vaughan-Williams - The definition of beauty in music. Elgar sounds like old ladies music in comparison.


England has only 1 true great composer, RVW. And no others. 
I love his 4,5,6 syms others as well. I hate his ever popular lark Ascending. man I can't stand that work. 
Theme on Thomas Tallis is stunning. I place RVW among my select few great composers in history. 
Britten does have a opera, Billy Bud that has high points. But RVW is englands greatest , no others even close.


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## paulbest

I think the finest complete set,,and I am sure many here would agree, is the Bryden Thomson/Chandos
Note the regular prices(no bargain selloffs),,,as no one is willing to part with this set.

https://www.amazon.com/Vaughan-Will...ix=vaughan+williams+symphonies,aps,148&sr=8-2


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## flamencosketches

I listened to his 3rd "Pastoral" symphony earlier, André Previn with the LSO. Really enjoyed it, especially the scherzo and the last movement with the soprano soloist. His music requires some serious patience, I'll say that much. But it feels like the kind of music that rewards effort. Definitely not the boring composer I'd prejudged him to be.


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## paulbest

flamencosketches said:


> Listened to a bit of the 4th symphony on break at work... this composer was something special for sure. I think I'm going to get Haitink's CD of the 5th symphony.


The 5th is a great sym. Also fond of 4,6. All RVW syms hold some *quintessential English spirit*, as mentioned above ina post. Indeed RVW is far and away englands master craftsman. 
On the 5th, one of the finest is the Barbirolli/Philharmonia, others I know would not argue. There are others perhaps who also love Boult's London SO recording. I've compared the 2 decades ago, the Barbirolli had the edge,. As I mentioned Thomson 's is also a must hear.


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## paulbest

Zemlinsky's Lyric Sym opening few minutes and the RVW connection. Both were composing 1910-1915. Can anyone help with understanding of this connection, who is borrowing from who. 

I mean it if it Zemlinsky, , he's just ripped a entire passage from one of RVW early syms. 
Which I have no issues with, at all. Not like say Hovhaness and Langgaard stealing way too much from either Sibelius/and/or RVW. 
Who borrow, without any payback of interest (pun intended)


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## Pat Fairlea

Steerpike said:


> I think his reputation for being 'rustic' probably comes from some of his shorter orchestral works, many of which took inspiration from English folk tunes (of which he was an avid collector).
> 
> England was often portrayed as 'the land without music' in the latter part of the 19th century, and such English composers as there were tended to be too much influenced by what was happening overseas, and particularly by Austrian and German music. Vaughan Williams made it his mission to find a voice for English music, so he would be very happy to be described as 'quintessentially English': it would be evidence that he had succeeded.
> 
> There is a huge range to his work, typified by the variety to be found in his symphonic output. He remains, in my view, England's greatest composer.


Interesting, isn't it? RVW made such use of English folk music forms and harmonies, yet a case can be made for him as an internationalist, certainly in his general outlook on life. He was never parochial - compare Elgar, for example - and bears consideration as one of the great European symphonists, alongside Sibelius, whom he much admired, and Mahler.
Note, too, that a couple of the other great developers of English folk music were Grainger, who was Australian, and Delius, who lived much of his adult years in the Caribbean and France. Not sure what, if anything, that proves!


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## flamencosketches

What are some great complete cycles of Vaughan Williams' symphonies? I have only heard a couple and I would like to have all 9 on disc. 

Two I'm looking at are Previn/LSO and Haitink/LPO. I have heard the 3rd and 5th respectively from these conductors and both really impressed me, but especially the Previn. Are there others I should be taking into consideration?


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## Becca

Even despite my opinion of complete sets ... definitely Vernon Handley and the Royal Liverpool Philharmonic.

An ideal 'set':

#1 - Mark Elder / Halle
#2 - the 1913 version in the only recording by Hickox / LSO
#2 - the official 1933/36 - either Barbirolli / Halle or Handley / RLPO
#3 - either Handley / RLPO or Previn / LSO
#4 - Berglund / RPO
#5 - Handley / RLPO
#6 - Barbirolli / Bavarian RSO
#7 - Handley / RLPO
#8 - Barbirolli / Halle (the studio recording originally on Mercury, not the one done at the premiere)
#9 - A. Davis / Bergen PO


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## CnC Bartok

I would very strongly echo the recommendation of Handley as the best cycle out there. There are a couple of weak links in Previn's set, and Haitink takes a different view of the composer that is illuminating but not the last word.

It seems we Brits have maintained a near monopoly on RVW. Boult is excellent in both of his cycles, Hickox close to perfect in his recordings. Andrew Davis too is no slouch! I'm claiming Previn as our own too...

Something to be proud of, but at the same time symptomatic of the idea RVW "doesn't travel well...", which is a real shame.


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## flamencosketches

Thanks. I am not familiar with Vernon Handley. I’ll have to give him a chance. Looks like the set can be had relatively cheaply too. 

My mind was blown when I realized Previn wasn’t English. I think most would agree with you that he’s an honorary Brit at least. Anyway, if what you say is true then that’s too bad. I think his interpretation lines up with the music itself so well in his Pastoral symphony, it’s amazing.

Is there any love for Leonard Slatkin’s RVW cycle. He’s one American that I often hear mentioned as a good interpreter of RVW.


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## Templeton

flamencosketches said:


> What are some great complete cycles of Vaughan Williams' symphonies? I have only heard a couple and I would like to have all 9 on disc.
> 
> Two I'm looking at are Previn/LSO and Haitink/LPO. I have heard the 3rd and 5th respectively from these conductors and both really impressed me, but especially the Previn. Are there others I should be taking into consideration?


I have both and much prefer the Previn cycle, although Haitink is fine too. Handley is great and another more recent one is Sir Mark Elder and the Hallé Orchestra. The recording quality for the latter is excellent. Barbirolli was, in my humble opinion, Britain's greatest conductor and you cannot go wrong with any of his Vaughan Williams recordings, although I don't think a full Barbirolli cycle is available. Don't ignore the Richard Hickox and the LSO recording of Vaughan Williams's original, extended version of his second 'London' symphony either.

If you go for the Previn cycle, you won't be disappointed and overall, it is probably my favourite.


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## Guest

I had a clear out of RVW symphonies several months ago and am left with:

#1 - Mark Elder/Halle

#2 - Richard Hickox/LSO (1933 version)
#2 - Vernon Handley/Royal Liverpool PO (1933 version)

#3 - Andrew Manze/Royal Liverpool PO 
#3 - Mark Elder/Halle

#4 - Paavo Berglund/Royal PO

#5 - Richard Hickox/LSO 
#5 - John Barbirolli/Philharmonia

#6 - John Barbirolli/Bavarian RSO
#6 - Adrian Boult/BBC SO 
#6 - Andrew Manze/Royal Liverpool PO

#7 - Bernard Haitinck/London PO

#8 - Andrew Davis/BBC SO 
#8 - Mark Elder/Halle
#8 - John Baribrolli/Halle

#9 - Andrew Manze/Royal Liverpool PO 
#9 - Vernon Handley/Royal Liverpool PO


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## Guest

flamencosketches said:


> My mind was blown when I realized *Previn* wasn't English. I think most would agree with you that he's an honorary Brit at least. Anyway, if what you say is true then that's too bad. I think his interpretation lines up with the music itself so well in his Pastoral symphony, it's amazing.


I always thought of him as an American. He was born in Germany but lived in the USA most of his life, where he held some prominent positions among several USA orchestras. He came to England often and was principal conductor of the LSO.

He was a composer, jazz artist, and a very good classical pianist. He was married 5 times, including to Mia Farrow and Anne Sophie Mutter. He died earlier this year.

He was popular in British TV. He was sometimes a guest on the "Morecambe and Wise " tv show, in a comedy role. These were two very famous British comedians. They used to refer to him as "Mr Andrew Preview". The following gives an idea of the kind of sketch he did with them, performing the Grieg Piano Concerto (sort of!):


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## Guest

Pat Fairlea said:


> Interesting, isn't it? RVW made such use of English folk music forms and harmonies, yet a case can be made for him as an internationalist, certainly in his general outlook on life. He was never parochial - compare Elgar, for example - and bears consideration as one of the great European symphonists, alongside Sibelius, whom he much admired, and Mahler.
> Note, too, that a couple of the other great developers of English folk music were Grainger, who was Australian, and Delius, who lived much of his adult years in the Caribbean and France. Not sure what, if anything, that proves!


I'm fond of Vaughan Williams and certainly rate him highly, not just among English composers but internationally. It's his symphonies that I find the most interesting part of his output. He wrote a lot of other music that I enjoy too.

On the whole, however, I prefer Elgar. It used to be the other way round but gradually over the years I have swung round in favour of Elgar as my overall best English composer of modern times. The two composers are not directly comparable since Elgar was born some 15 years before Vaughan Williams, and died 24 years earlier. This meant that he was probably slightly more constrained in the style he could easily adopt, especially as it occurred during the late Victorian era and early part of the Edwardian when he was especially active.

I know, of course, that that Elgar has a reputation for writing a lot of pompous-sounding music pampering to glory of the British Empire and all that, but it must be recalled that at his peak (which lasted for quite a few years in the late 19th and early 20th C up to around 1920) he was a very famous and highly regarded figure on the English classical music scene. Associated with this high fame was that he was often called upon to write music for various State occasions, which obviously had to fit the "bill" in terms of likely acceptance.

Despite this, I think that Elgar wrote some really good music across most genres, including a lot of his work commissioned for State occasions. I realise that much of this work hasn't caught on in other parts of the world, which is a pity as I think it deserves to be better known. I especially like his main oratorios: The Dream Of Gerontius, The Apostles, The Kingdom. His violin and cello concertos are both excellent. Lots else besides especially the two Symphonies, Enigma Variations, Falstaff, and various choral works like Sea Pictures and The Spirit Of England. I also like most of his chamber music in preference to RVW's. I think that Elgar's orchestration skills were outstanding, and he wrote some really great tunes making him one of the best melodists.


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## Enthusiast

Barbirolli did a great 2 (final version). The Hickox 4 is very good. For complete sets Previn or Handley. I think Previn's approach is more nuanced while Handley tends to be matter-of-fact and none the worse for that. His performances are so often proof that you don't need to try to make the music more than it is - and with VW the effect can be to blow away the English mist.


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## flamencosketches

I just ordered the Previn. I was not super impressed with what I heard of Handley, but surely I will revisit it in the future. I love all I've heard of Previn's set so far. As a bonus, it was super cheap at just over $20. I completely failed at trying to resist purchasing music for the time being, but... worth it, I say, if I gain a new favorite composer out of it.


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## mikeh375

Partita said:


> ...........
> 
> .....Despite this, I think that Elgar wrote some really good music across most genres, including a lot of his work commissioned for State occasions. I realise that much of this work hasn't caught on in other parts of the world, which is a pity as I think it deserves to be better known. * I especially like his main oratorios: The Dream Of Gerontius, The Apostles, The Kingdom*........


Yes Partita, me too. The oratorios are absolutely fantastic and two of them are rarely heard. The Apostles and The Kingdom rank higher than Dream of G in my book with some haunting motifs throughout used in a Wagner-like vein. One thinks of the almost eerie Holy Spirit chords and the modulating Prayer of Christ harmony as outstanding examples that have such an emotive power (and I'm not even religious!).
Elgar was one of the greatest of orchestrators. One only has to look through his work to see wonderful colour in the music, all beautifully balanced. Years ago I picked up a hard bound score to The Apostles , full conductor size for a third of the price because the cover was attached upside down to the pages within...result.


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## chill782002

I went for a walk a few days ago and came upon this. I must admit I have a bit of a soft spot for Ralph, nice to see that he's still remembered.


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## flamencosketches

chill782002 said:


> I went for a walk a few days ago and came upon this. I must admit I have a bit of a soft spot for Ralph, nice to see that he's still remembered.
> 
> View attachment 137197


That's amazing. You Brits are lucky. A lot of history under your feet.


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## Guest

I've not read all the pages in this thread - a very sane and polite one, it seems to me. I wonder if that says something about the status of RVW that tempers don't fray (as they do among LvB and WAM fans and detractors). Or is it an age thing, that RVW tends to appeal to an older audience?

Whatever.

I'm only just starting to listen to his symphonies (other than the soundtrack to _Scott of the Antartic_ - a quintessentially British story and movie if ever there was one) and I'm hearing echoes of Shostakovich in Symphony No 6. Anyone else hear it?


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## Pat Fairlea

MacLeod said:


> I've not read all the pages in this thread - a very sane and polite one, it seems to me. I wonder if that says something about the status of RVW that tempers don't fray (as they do among LvB and WAM fans and detractors). Or is it an age thing, that RVW tends to appeal to an older audience? .......?


I personally doubt that RVW particularly appeals to an older audience. I was captivated by his music in my teens, listening to that quiet, bleak Epilogue to his 6th symphony in tears, and smiling at the fun he obviously had with his 8th. 
A piece of advice often given to aspiring poets is "Show, don't tell". To my mind, RVW usually does that, opening up a landscape to the listener who is then invited to put their own reading onto it. Sibelius did that, too, whereas Wagner and, to a degree, Mahler were inclined to 'tell' too didactically for my tastes. 
Whether this ramble makes sense to anyone else is up to you. I have shown you what I think, not told you.


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## Rogerx

Ralph Vaughan Williams * 1872- composer


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## Janspe

I listened to Previn's recording of _A Sea Symphony_ tonight and I was totally moved by the piece. What a stunning opening for a series of nine symphonies - it might be the one that has moved me the most of his symphonies so far!


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## Gargamel

Pat Fairlea said:


> A piece of advice often given to aspiring poets is "Show, don't tell". To my mind, RVW usually does that, opening up a landscape to the listener who is then invited to put their own reading onto it. Sibelius did that, too, whereas Wagner and, to a degree, Mahler were inclined to 'tell' too didactically for my tastes.


You might have also sometimes heard "Tell, don't show." But what the hell has this to do with music?


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## Becca

Janspe said:


> I listened to Previn's recording of _A Sea Symphony_ tonight and I was totally moved by the piece. What a stunning opening for a series of nine symphonies - it might be the one that has moved me the most of his symphonies so far!


I find it intriguing to consider the major early works by a number of composers who were active in the late 19th & early 20th century...

Mahler - Das Klagende Lied
Sibelius - Kullervo
Schoenberg - Gurrelieder
Vaughan Williams - Sea Symphony

All big orchestral/chorus/soloist works - and they all scaled back (some) after that.


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## Manxfeeder

Could I get some input from you VW fans? I have the complete cycles by Haitink, Davis, and Thomson. I noticed that Supraphon has the Previn cycle in an inexpensive download. Is Previn so good that I need to add it to what I already have, or am I good with with I have?


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## Becca

Cycles are for the ***  While all of your above mentioned conductors are good, if I were forced to pick one then it would be Vernon Handley. Having said that, picking and choosing amongst available versions will get you some very special performances, the following being at the top of my lists...

1 - Halle/Elder
2 - LSO/Hickox - 1913 version
5 - RLPO/Handley
6 - BRSO/Barbirolli
8 - Halle/Barbirolli


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## CnC Bartok

Manxfeeder said:


> Could I get some input from you VW fans? I have the complete cycles by Haitink, Davis, and Thomson. I noticed that Supraphon has the Previn cycle in an inexpensive download. Is Previn so good that I need to add it to what I already have, or am I good with with I have?


Yes, to both of your questions!!

I don't know Bryden Thomson's cycle, but have heard good things about it, and I think Andrew Davis is under-rated in these works, a very noble set as far as I am concerned. Haitink is - for me anyway - an essential addendum. It's not very "English", but it's much better than some at emphasising the stereotypical symphonic aspects of these errrr.. symphonies!

In my humble opinion, the big three cycles (ignoring Richard Hickox, who sadly died before completing what would have been the best) are either of the Boults, Vernon Handley, and Andre Previn. If you can cope with a disappointingly bland No.4, Previn is brilliant throughout, especially in Nos 2 and 5, and the final two. Oh and his Antartica has the dulcet tones of Ralph Richardson reading the inter-movement words, which I like!

Actually, I am currently collecting the Martyn Brabbins recordings on Hyperion. Anyone been doing the same? So far, so good, I'd venture to say....


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## 89Koechel

Well, thanks to Janspe, Manx, Becca ... and esp., Cnc Bartok for REVIVING this thread. Geez, but I see NO mention of Sir Adrian Boult, whether in the complete, VW symphonic cycle (and I don't think Adrian B recorded EVERY Symphony, unless someone says otherwise). Also, there WAS a most-remarkable Symphony #4, recorded/played by V-W, himself, in 1937. It has EVERY element, expressed, in it's slashing dynamics, and somnolent slow movement, and it all holds-together. Extraordinary.


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## Josquin13

I agree with everything that CnCb said above. Haitink is excellent in this music, but yes, his Vaughan Williams doesn't sound very "English"--which makes for an interesting alternative set. I most wouldn't want to be without the Sir Adrian Boult and Andre Previn symphony cycles myself. (& yes, Boult recorded all 9 Symphonies, twice, 89Koechel--first, in the 1950s & early 60s, and secondly, between 1967-71 for HMV/EMI, with the London Philharmonic & New Philharmonia Orchestras.) Bryden Thomson is excellent, too, and would be my top pick among digital era cycles, as well as for the rest of his RVW series on Chandos (though I've not heard the more recent Elder, Manze, or Brabbins symphony cycles). But, for me, Boult will always be THE conductor for pre-WW2 British composers, and the standard by which other recordings of Vaughan Williams' music should be measured. So I'd add Boult before I added Previn (although I have them both, and yes, I wouldn't want to be without Sir Ralph Richardson's wonderful narration in the Sinfonia "Antartica", either--on Previn's recording, which compliments Boult's interpretation well. By the way, Haitink is also at his best in the Sinfonia "Antartica", IMO).

https://www.amazon.com/Vaughan-Will...W2BFF530PKQ&psc=1&refRID=75582BQZMW2BFF530PKQ
https://www.amazon.com/Vaughan-Will...W2BFF530PKQ&psc=1&refRID=75582BQZMW2BFF530PKQ

https://www.amazon.com/André-Previn...W2BFF530PKQ&psc=1&refRID=75582BQZMW2BFF530PKQ

In addition, I like Boult in other music by Vaughan Williams, as well--especially in his "Serenade to Music": 



 , which I've never heard equaled, and The Lark Ascending (with violinist Hugh Bean): 



, Fantasia on a Theme by Thomas Tallis:



, In Fen Country: 



, and Norfolk Rhapsody No. 1: 



, etc.:

Which makes this recording is an essential RVW disc, in my view: https://www.amazon.com/Vaughan-Will...RF52JZ9FVGX&psc=1&refRID=2KQ4VBWWJRF52JZ9FVGX.


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## CnC Bartok

Well, if you think highly of Adrian Boult, this box is what you might see as "somewhat essential":









And while Sir Adrian himself may have the look of a dour English country squire, if anyone thinks this is how he conducts, you have another thing coming!! This box contains his second symphony cycle (plus a radio-sounding 6th from the very early 50s), and although there might be a bit more abandon in the earlier mono "set" - recorded before No.9 was composed, a Ninth was done for Everest a week or so after the composer died - there is a strigine wisdom to the later performances.

As an example, I have to admit it took me a while to get to properly understand the Pastoral Symphony, and a combination of hearing Hickox's stupendous yet analytical performance on Chandos, and the WWI centenary of course, helped there, but as far as I am concerned, Boult is difficult to beat in this work. No ladles of pathos, but numbing all the same. And of course all the extras in this box are essential, josquin13 above sends you to a release that is included in the big box!

It's all the extras that are making Brabbins' cycle all the more attractive. There are some less known pieces being included, pieces I either did not know, or hadn't bothered with, and these are very good to have. Hickox was doing much the same (and I think is still the only Norfolk Rhapsody 2 recording out there?)


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## Azol

With the above sets on hand, next step is getting Vernon Handley.


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## Dan Ante

Pat Fairlea said:


> I personally doubt that RVW particularly appeals to an older audience. I was captivated by his music in my teens, listening to that quiet, bleak Epilogue to his 6th symphony in tears, and smiling at the fun he obviously had with his 8th.


Well I am knocking on a bit and he gets my vote I abso blooming lute ly like him. I think you should make a poll out of it Mr Pat.


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## CnC Bartok

Dan Ante said:


> Well I am knocking on a bit and he gets my vote I abso blooming lute ly like him. I think you should make a poll out of it Mr Pat.


As you're a Kiwi (I assume), this might be the most appropriate place to ask if you are familiar with the three symphonies (plus symphonic poems) of Douglas Lilburn? He seems to be regularly compared to RVW, which I sort of understand, but he's very much his own man too...


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## trbl0001

When he's good, he's great (Tallis Fantasia, Flos Campi, Serenade to Music, etc) but I bought a box set of the symphonies some years back and found that there were more that I didn't like than I did. 3rd and 5th symphonies great though - there was a recent concert of 5th with Simon Rattle from the Proms, may still be on BBC iplayer.


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## Becca

CnC Bartok said:


> As you're a Kiwi (I assume), this might be the most appropriate place to ask if you are familiar with the three symphonies (plus symphonic poems) of Douglas Lilburn? He seems to be regularly compared to RVW, which I sort of understand, but he's very much his own man too...


While Douglas Lilburn did study with RVW in the 30's, I find his early and mid-carer music far more redolent of Sibelius. Some of his later works have little similarity to either.


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## Eclectic Al

One thing that has surprised (and gratified) me since I have played on Talk Classical is the love for RVW.

I personally am (and always have been) a great fan of his, but I always felt a little bit guilty, as there seemed to be a tendency among those who considered themselves to be knowledgeable to look down on him. This created a sense that because I liked his music it suggested that I was not one of the classical music cognoscenti, and that I should really up my game and get into Harrison Birtwistle. I guess I'm just not sophisticated, and I'll just have to put up with that, while I listen to RVW's Symphony 5 one more time.


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## Dan Ante

CnC Bartok said:


> As you're a Kiwi (I assume), this might be the most appropriate place to ask if you are familiar with the three symphonies (plus symphonic poems) of Douglas Lilburn? He seems to be regularly compared to RVW, which I sort of understand, but he's very much his own man too...


Yes I have a reasonable selection of RvW including the Sym set by the LSO, Sir Adrian Boult which include some of the Sym Poems, as far as Lilburn is concerned I like his early works… nuf said.


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## Janspe

Eclectic Al said:


> I personally am (and always have been) a great fan of his, but I always felt a little bit guilty, as there seemed to be a tendency among those who considered themselves to be knowledgeable to look down on him.


Something I've noticed is that a lot of people looking down on Vaughan Williams' output are often quite unaware of the scope of the music the man composed. There really is a lot of stuff that is totally unknown. In addition, a lot orchestras - outside the UK anyway - don't really have a _tradition_ surrounding Vaughan Williams. Take the orchestras in my city Helsinki, for example: Vaughan Williams is an incredibly rare sight in programmes. When the symphonies, let alone other orchestral works, are not played with any regularity, the music never enters the general audience's consciousness. I heard the _London Symphony_ a few years ago and it was like a breath of fresh air, even if it's not even a favourite of mine among VW's symphonies. I would've heard the 8th last season actually, but a certain virus made that impossible...


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## CnC Bartok

Janspe said:


> Something I've noticed is that a lot of people looking down on Vaughan Williams' output are often quite unaware of the scope of the music the man composed. There really is a lot of stuff that is totally unknown. In addition, a lot orchestras - outside the UK anyway - don't really have a _tradition_ surrounding Vaughan Williams. Take the orchestras in my city Helsinki, for example: Vaughan Williams is an incredibly rare sight in programmes. When the symphonies, let alone other orchestral works, are not played with any regularity, the music never enters the general audience's consciousness. I heard the _London Symphony_ a few years ago and it was like a breath of fresh air, even if it's not even a favourite of mine among VW's symphonies. I would've heard the 8th last season actually, but a certain virus made that impossible...


There is indeed a huge range in his work, known and less well so, and if anyone can see a similarity of mood between, say the Fifth Symphony and the two violent ones either side is doing better than me! But - and this is the important thing for me - they all "sound like Vaughan Williams". He is a very distinctive composer, even if his forte was not pushing the boundaries of musical expression. Nor was the composer I tend to compare him to - Janacek (and sometimes Bartok) - as both of them were just so "themselves" that few composers after them really followed their lead; there's no real "Janacek school" out in Bohemia/Moravia any more than there is a legion of English composers following in the RVW tradition..

Banging on about Brabbins and his cycle, but he is being quite brave and introducing the occasional lesser-known pieces as fillers. Worth having. But no, he's not likely to get them rushing into the concert halls, and that's probably not just a Helsinki issue...

...then again, here in the UK, we adopted Sibelius very early on, it's about time you Finns repaid the compliment. :tiphat:


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## HerbertNorman

trbl0001 said:


> When he's good, he's great (Tallis Fantasia, Flos Campi, Serenade to Music, etc) but I bought a box set of the symphonies some years back and found that there were more that I didn't like than I did. 3rd and 5th symphonies great though - there was a recent concert of 5th with Simon Rattle from the Proms, may still be on BBC iplayer.


I have to agree with you. I was listening to his Tallis fantasia and Oboe concerto , then the 3d symphony... which I thought was ok , but then I listened to the 4th and wasn't impressed
I have the same feeling about RVW , some of his work appeals to me ... some does completely not .


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## trbl0001

No, I didn't like the 4th. To be honest, in the time I had that box set I don't think I even listened to all the later ones. Mainly prefer his shorter pieces, like the Oboe Concerto.


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## Pat Fairlea

trbl0001 said:


> No, I didn't like the 4th. To be honest, in the time I had that box set I don't think I even listened to all the later ones. Mainly prefer his shorter pieces, like the Oboe Concerto.


Give the 8th Symphony another try. It's not one of his most widely praised and it has some touches of ingenuity and humour that I really enjoy.


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## 89Koechel

Very good, CnC ... and maybe, to be honest, even the originality of Ralph V-W is NOT the same of one who came "after him", so to speak - Sir Wm. Walton. These, two, originilities of British composers/compositions still have their PLACE ... and those, two, places are irreplaceable, after all - eh? Would anyone like to DENY this assertion?


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## 89Koechel

Very good, Pat Fairlea! ... Yes, let's give the 8th Symphony another "try", or even more! Mr. Ralph V-W was NOTED for his specific humour, itself ... and his ingenuity ,,, even within the "realm" of British composers, of the best, is fairly-well known, by now ... maybe.


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## Dirge

Ralph VAUGHAN WILLIAMS: _*Job ~ A Masque for Dancing*_ (1927-30)
:: Boult/BBC SO [HMV '46] ~ 43½ minutes





_Job_, a ballet masquerading as a masque for dancing, is in nine scenes based on a set of engravings illustrating the _Book of Job_ (1823-26) by the English poet, artist, and mystic William Blake. The nine scenes encompass 17 or 18 musical sections that reflect as many facets of RVW's compositional persona. From a dramatic standpoint, the music tends to fall into three categories: "the heavenly, the earthly, and the infernal." The composer's interest in early music comes through in the use of olden dance forms-saraband, minuet, pavane, galliard-and by way of the neo-Renaissance spirit of some of the writing, the familiar whiff of the _Tallis Fantasia_ in the air. The pastoral writing for which RVW is famous/infamous is well represented, of course, most conspicuously in "Elihu's Dance of Youth and Beauty," which features a violin solo reminiscent of that in _The Lark Ascending_. The more dissonant/brutal and decidedly modern aspects of his later symphonies, Four through Nine, are presaged/debuted here. Whether closely related or contrasting in character, the various sections work together in a complementary way that furthers the dramatic narrative and conjures up a satisfying sense of continuity and belonging together.

As for the title … RVW was so turned off by the trappings, as he perceived them, of modern ballet that he rejected the name "ballet" (even though _Job_ is a ballet) and dubbed the work a "masque" (even though _Job_ is not a masque). The dancing called for is apparently more akin to mime than to traditional ballet, so _Job_ is perhaps better thought of as a mime (with music) for dancing. The score calls for an orchestra too large for the orchestra pit of a theatre-an apparent response to the proposed work being rejected by Diaghilev for Ballets Russes-so RVW was presumably happy to have the work performed as a concert work. Constant Lambert re-scored _Job_ for theatre use.

The October 2000 issue of the _Journal of the RVW Society_ focuses on _Job_ and provides a boatload of information about the work, along with a survey of most of the recordings of the work available at the time: https://rvwsociety.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/rvw_journal_19.pdf

Of the ten recordings that I know, I strongly gravitate towards Boult's first two offerings for their "circle-squaring combination of stately grandeur and near-explosive emotional power" (as one critic summed up Boult's way with _Job_) …

Boult's 1946 HMV recording with the BBC SO, the premiere recording of the work, has an urgency and palpable sense of occasion about it that separates it from the pack, including Boult's various other recordings. The pace is unlingering but always purposeful, never unduly fast, phrasing is as natural/idiomatic/"English" as it could be, and the playing has an elemental energy and ruggedness about it that makes modern accounts sound unengagingly suave and gentle. The slower, quieter music is unaffected yet poignant and affecting, and the faster, more dynamic music has great gusto and visceral impact. I know the recording only via a good-sounding private LP transfer and haven't heard the Dutton or EMI/Warner commercial transfers from 78s.

Boult's 1954 Decca follow-up with the LPO is a more austere and deliberate affair that's a bit thin in texture, grey in color, and distressed in tone-exacerbated by the somewhat dry and constricted recorded sound. If Boult doesn't play up the orchestral showcase aspect of _Job_, it's out of necessity, as the LPO wasn't a showcase orchestra at the time. As if to make up for it, Boult and the boys rely on unflagging focus & concentration to generate and sustain a great deal of tension and build cumulative impact to the bitter end; indeed, no performance puts the work's dramatic narrative across with more grim determination. While such an approach is right up my alley, it doesn't seem to be up anyone else's alley, so this recording isn't a good general recommendation.

None of the stereo recordings win me over, including Boult's, but if forced to choose one I'd go with Boult/LSO [EMI '70]: it's beautifully played and vividly recorded in vintage EMI stereo, but the performance sounds a bit pat and content with itself compared to Boult's first two outings. That said, it and the slower and more luxurious/indulgent Handley/LPO [EMI/CfP '83] seem to be the most popular and generally recommended recordings of _Job_ judging from reviews and listener comments and the like. Boult/LPO [Everest '58] and Boult/LPO [Intaglio, live '72] strike me as a cut or two below the other Boult offerings, and the Everest recording is so artificial sounding that I have trouble listening to it.


----------



## Merl

I love VW"s quartets and Phantasy Quintet. I think they're some of my favourite VW works. They're all available on one Naxos disc, too, at an absolute steal of a price on the secondhand market.


----------



## HenryPenfold

Dirge said:


> Ralph VAUGHAN WILLIAMS: _*Job ~ A Masque for Dancing*_ (1927-30)
> :: Boult/BBC SO [HMV '46] ~ 43½ minutes
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _Job_, a ballet masquerading as a masque for dancing, is in nine scenes based on a set of engravings illustrating the _Book of Job_ (1823-26) by the English poet, artist, and mystic William Blake. The nine scenes encompass 17 or 18 musical sections that reflect as many facets of RVW's compositional persona. From a dramatic standpoint, the music tends to fall into three categories: "the heavenly, the earthly, and the infernal." The composer's interest in early music comes through in the use of olden dance forms-saraband, minuet, pavane, galliard-and by way of the neo-Renaissance spirit of some of the writing, the familiar whiff of the _Tallis Fantasia_ in the air. The pastoral writing for which RVW is famous/infamous is well represented, of course, most conspicuously in "Elihu's Dance of Youth and Beauty," which features a violin solo reminiscent of that in _The Lark Ascending_. The more dissonant/brutal and decidedly modern aspects of his later symphonies, Four through Nine, are presaged/debuted here. Whether closely related or contrasting in character, the various sections work together in a complementary way that furthers the dramatic narrative and conjures up a satisfying sense of continuity and belonging together.
> 
> As for the title … RVW was so turned off by the trappings, as he perceived them, of modern ballet that he rejected the name "ballet" (even though _Job_ is a ballet) and dubbed the work a "masque" (even though _Job_ is not a masque). The dancing called for is apparently more akin to mime than to traditional ballet, so _Job_ is perhaps better thought of as a mime (with music) for dancing. The score calls for an orchestra too large for the orchestra pit of a theatre-an apparent response to the proposed work being rejected by Diaghilev for Ballets Russes-so RVW was presumably happy to have the work performed as a concert work. Constant Lambert re-scored _Job_ for theatre use.
> 
> The October 2000 issue of the _Journal of the RVW Society_ focuses on _Job_ and provides a boatload of information about the work, along with a survey of most of the recordings of the work available at the time: https://rvwsociety.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/rvw_journal_19.pdf
> 
> Of the ten recordings that I know, I strongly gravitate towards Boult's first two offerings for their "circle-squaring combination of stately grandeur and near-explosive emotional power" (as one critic summed up Boult's way with _Job_) …
> 
> Boult's 1946 HMV recording with the BBC SO, the premiere recording of the work, has an urgency and palpable sense of occasion about it that separates it from the pack, including Boult's various other recordings. The pace is unlingering but always purposeful, never unduly fast, phrasing is as natural/idiomatic/"English" as it could be, and the playing has an elemental energy and ruggedness about it that makes modern accounts sound unengagingly suave and gentle. The slower, quieter music is unaffected yet poignant and affecting, and the faster, more dynamic music has great gusto and visceral impact. I know the recording only via a good-sounding private LP transfer and haven't heard the Dutton or EMI/Warner commercial transfers from 78s.
> 
> Boult's 1954 Decca follow-up with the LPO is a more austere and deliberate affair that's a bit thin in texture, grey in color, and distressed in tone-exacerbated by the somewhat dry and constricted recorded sound. If Boult doesn't play up the orchestral showcase aspect of _Job_, it's out of necessity, as the LPO wasn't a showcase orchestra at the time. As if to make up for it, Boult and the boys rely on unflagging focus & concentration to generate and sustain a great deal of tension and build cumulative impact to the bitter end; indeed, no performance puts the work's dramatic narrative across with more grim determination. While such an approach is right up my alley, it doesn't seem to be up anyone else's alley, so this recording isn't a good general recommendation.
> 
> None of the stereo recordings win me over, including Boult's, but if forced to choose one I'd go with Boult/LSO [EMI '70]: it's beautifully played and vividly recorded in vintage EMI stereo, but the performance sounds a bit pat and content with itself compared to Boult's first two outings. That said, it and the slower and more luxurious/indulgent Handley/LPO [EMI/CfP '83] seem to be the most popular and generally recommended recordings of _Job_ judging from reviews and listener comments and the like. Boult/LPO [Everest '58] and Boult/LPO [Intaglio, live '72] strike me as a cut or two below the other Boult offerings, and the Everest recording is so artificial sounding that I have trouble listening to it.


Thank you so much for this very interesting and discerning post. I think I take Job for granted. A deeper listening is required, on my part. I have several recordings including the Boult and Handley. Lloyd-Jones and Andrew Davis are also in my collection. I'm not sure why, but Job has never properly resinated with me, despite many respected advocates.


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## vincula

Merl said:


> I love VW"s quartets and Phantasy Quintet. I think they're some of my favourite VW works. They're all available on one Naxos disc, too, at an absolute steal of a price on the secondhand market.
> 
> View attachment 150754


This album kept me awake last night. I'm listening to the String Qt. no.2 right now on Spotify. Cracking album and lovely playing from the Maggini Quartet. I cherished their rendition of Britten string quartets and they do a sterling job here too. Thanks so much for the recommendation. I'll purchased the album whenever it pops up at a bargain price somewhere.

I've learnt a lot about RVW going through this thread already. I hadn't paid so much attention to him beyond a few pieces. His symphonies still don't do it for me yet. Maybe at a later stage. One never knows.

Regards,

Vincula


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## Dirge

HenryPenfold said:


> Thank you so much for this very interesting and discerning post. I think I take Job for granted. A deeper listening is required, on my part. I have several recordings including the Boult and Handley. Lloyd-Jones and Andrew Davis are also in my collection. I'm not sure why, but Job has never properly resinated with me, despite many respected advocates.


I was indifferent to _Job_ for most of my listening life, but then it unexpectedly "clicked"/"resonated" with me some years back and has been a favorite ever since. I'd been listening to symphonies nos. 3, 4, 5 & 6 a fair amount at the time of my conversion, and that seems to have softened up my brain enough to make me susceptible to _Job_'s charms.


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## HenryPenfold

Dirge said:


> I was indifferent to _Job_ for most of my listening life, but then it unexpectedly "clicked"/"resonated" with me some years back and has been a favorite ever since. I'd been listening to symphonies nos. 3, 4, 5 & 6 a fair amount at the time of my conversion, and that seems to have softened up my brain enough to make me susceptible to _Job_'s charms.


I'd been focusing on 3, 4, 5 & 6 for many years and what clicked for me therefrom was symphony no.9, which has been for a while now, my favourite RVW composition. I fear Job may still be in the distance.


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## golfer72

Interesting discussion. I recently listened to Sym 3 which i liked and am working on Sym 1 now. I also have 4 and 2 which ill work on after the Sea Symphony.


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## golfer72

chill782002 said:


> I went for a walk a few days ago and came upon this. I must admit I have a bit of a soft spot for Ralph, nice to see that he's still remembered.
> 
> View attachment 137197


Thats cool coming across that!


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## Pat Fairlea

Merl said:


> I love VW"s quartets and Phantasy Quintet. I think they're some of my favourite VW works. They're all available on one Naxos disc, too, at an absolute steal of a price on the secondhand market.
> 
> View attachment 150754


Hear, hear! Not only is this a budget CD with three of RVW's finest chamber works, but they are very good performances too. Lovely to hear the viola being given a chance to sing.


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## Becca

I didn't even know about the existence of this performance of the London Symphony (1913 version) until very recently...


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## Animal the Drummer

My childhood piano teacher knew VW. He once happened upon the great man sitting on a bench outside Worcester Cathedral, where my teacher was assistant organist for many years, during the Three Choirs Festival while an orchestral concert including the Beethoven Violin Concerto was being performed inside. VW couldn't abide Beethoven's music, so my teacher's enquiry about why he wasn't at the concert was met with a loud harrumph and the declaration that "I'd rather run three miles than listen to THAT!".


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## Haydn70

Animal the Drummer said:


> My childhood piano teacher knew VW. He once happened upon the great man sitting on a bench outside Worcester Cathedral, where my teacher was assistant organist for many years, during the Three Choirs Festival while an orchestral concert including the Beethoven Violin Concerto was being performed inside. VW couldn't abide Beethoven's music, so my teacher's enquiry about why he wasn't at the concert was met with a loud harrumph and the declaration that "I'd rather run three miles than listen to THAT!".


A quote from Schonberg's _The Lives of the Great Composers_: "Temperamentally he [Vaughan Williams] was never able to identity with the German school. 'To this day the Beethoven idiom repels me,' he wrote as an old man, adding, 'but I hope I have at last learnt to see the greatness that lies behind the idiom that I dislike, and at the same time to see an occasional weakness behind the Bach idiom which I love.'"


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## Animal the Drummer

Indeed. He wrote an extended essay about the virtues of the Choral Symphony. though he would never have subjected himself to hearing a performance of it.


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## Haydn70

Animal the Drummer said:


> Indeed. He wrote an extended essay about the virtues of the Choral Symphony. though he would never have subjected himself to hearing a performance of it.


I never knew that...very interesting!

What is a bit strange, considering he didn't like 19th century German music, is that he went to Berlin and had a few lessons with Max Bruch.

During the winter of 1907-08 he had three months of intensive study with Ravel who declared Vaughan Williams to be "my only pupil who does not write my music". Vaughan Williams said that Ravel had helped him escape from "the heavy contrapuntal Teutonic manner".


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## Eclectic Al

Haydn70 said:


> I never knew that...very interesting!
> 
> What is a bit strange, considering he didn't like 19th century German music, is that he went to Berlin and had a few lessons with Max Bruch.
> 
> During the winter of 1907-08 he had three months of intensive study with Ravel who declared Vaughan Williams to be "my only pupil who does not write my music". Vaughan Williams said that Ravel had helped him escape from "the heavy contrapuntal Teutonic manner".


I'm a big fan of RVW, and he doesn't of course sound Teutonic!

However, I have recently been having a go at listening to Parry and Stanford. I am enjoying them immensely, despite (or because of ?) German influences. To be honest, how could you compose in the 19th century and not be somewhat humbled by the German giants. I'm getting German influence, but not a heavy contrapuntal Teutonic manner. I don't think the former has to imply the latter. I've never found Mendelssohn at all heavy (indeed, "light" is what springs to mind), although I do struggle a bit with Schumann's orchestral output.

Coming to Elgar, although he has all those "music of the British Empire" associations, I have always felt that works like his Second Symphony and Violin Concerto are slap bang in the European romantic tradition, and not some sort of English offshoot. (And they are none the worse for that - masterpieces.)

Still love RVW, but I'm also happy to listen to things that are a bit teutonic, even if written by British composers.


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## Becca

...and then there's Granville Bantock, not quite sure how to place him (somewhat Elgarian, but??) ... but I really like his symphonies, etc.


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## vincula

Enjoying RVW's oboe concerto right now. The tuba one will follow as soon as I drink more coffee...

I can hear Barbirolli has a special empathy with RVW's music. This album really makes both shine. I find surprisingly many jazzy lines in this concerto, especially in the 1st mov. Perhaps my ageing "jazz-corrupted" ears are to blame :lol:









Regards,

Vincula


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## Azol

Today I finally was able to put my hands on ever-elusive Slatkin boxset and I can say it fully lives up to my best expectations. A Sea Symphony is a powerhouse you must hear to believe. Organ and percussion is captured gloriously here and in Sinfonia Antartica, making the overall impression truly spectacular. The first movement of RVW 4 is brutal! Musicians of Philharmonia Orchestra play as if their lives depend on it.
Gosh, I am running out of words, I sampled thing around this boxset and can't wait to dive deep into it. I dare to say Slatkin will get more spins than Thomson and Handley combined.


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## PeterAccettola

Along with his better know works there is also a really fine CD of "Six Studies in English Folk Song", with David Jalbert on piano and Denise Djokic paying cello.
I think you will really enjoy listening to these.


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