# Joan Sutherland didn't sing with emotion? hmmm........



## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

may not be as histrionic as the current market for opera tends to look for (in fact, I'll extend that to the entertainment industry in general), but imo, there is plenty of emotion and passion in many of Sutherland's recordings.


----------



## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

Missing that emotion however was her very last appearance at the Met as Leonora in _Il trovatore _with Pavarotti and Nucci and her husband Bonynge in the pit. She generated some strange rhythms in the Miserere and even her "D'amor sull' ali rosee" had some strange rhythms that seemed to be fighting Bonynge's take. I could almost hear them arguing on the way over:
Bonynge: "Don't take that passage slow. I don't want you to do that!"
Sutherland: "Hmmm. We'll see!"


----------



## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

nina foresti said:


> Missing that emotion however was her very last appearance at the Met as Leonora in _Il trovatore _with Pavarotti and Nucci and her husband Bonynge in the pit. She generated some strange rhythms in the Miserere and even her "D'amor sull' ali rosee" had some strange rhythms that seemed to be fighting Bonynge's take. I could almost hear them arguing on the way over:
> Bonynge: "Don't take that passage slow. I don't want you to do that!"
> Sutherland: "Hmmm. We'll see!"


she was probably tired of him...ahem...swallowing too many swords


----------



## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Sutherland was not without feeling. She merely lacked the fullness, color and bite in her midrange and chest voice to convey much of it in vocal terms, or the clarity of diction to use the sounds of words expressively. From that perspective I find her "Libera me" from the Verdi Requiem to be a bit of miscasting. The intent is clearly there, but the voice really isn't (although the orchestra-heavy engineering of that recording doesn't help her). Ths is music for an Aida, not an Amina.

I've never understood those who contend that Sutherland could have been an Isolde or Brunnhilde. I think her career choices were for the most part the right ones for her voice.


----------



## Steatopygous (Jul 5, 2015)

Woodduck said:


> Sutherland was not without feeling. She merely lacked the fullness, color and bite in her midrange and chest voice to convey much of it in vocal terms, or the clarity of diction to use the sounds of words expressively. From that perspective I find her "Libera me" from the Verdi Requiem to be a bit of miscasting. The intent is clearly there, but the voice really isn't (although the orchestra-heavy engineering of that recording doesn't help her). Ths is music for an Aida, not an Amina.
> 
> I've never understood those who contend that Sutherland could have been an Isolde or Brunnhilde. I think her career choices were for the most part the right ones for her voice.


I certainly agree about clarity of diction, but not about fullness, colour or bite. She was a fabulous soprano, with extraordinary power and range for someone with such astounding coloratura skills.
She was a fine Wagnerian soprano (as the Woodbird :lol


----------



## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

I will only comment that Joan Sutherland does nothing for me. I had a double disc set of her arias and got rid of it. I retain the La Fille du Regiment with her and Pavarotti mainly because there is no better recording on CD (If only I could get a soundtrack for the Mariella Devia La Fille du Regiment I would get rid of the other one). Not that Sutherland is not great, but she just does not fit my tastes. (I do love Mariella Devia's voice even though many say she does not sing with emotion, but with cold, precise technical ability. Yet I feel she does show great emotion in the La Fille du Regiment DVD.)


----------



## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Steatopygous said:


> I certainly agree about clarity of diction, but not about fullness, colour or bite. She was a fabulous soprano, with extraordinary power and range for someone with such astounding coloratura skills.
> She was a fine Wagnerian soprano (as the Woodbird :lol


The part of that I agree with is "for someone with such astounding coloratura skills." It's a large voice, certainly, but there's very little richness, incisiveness or expressive capacity in the lower third of it. Put her beside two other large-voiced singers with superb coloratura skills - Ponselle and Callas - to hear what's missing. Those ladies could fulfill the big dramatic parts that Sutherland was wise to avoid. Even Caballe had a better low voice.

Actually I prefer a lighter-voiced Woodbird. I'm picky about birds.


----------



## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Woodduck said:


> From that perspective I find her "Libera me" from the Verdi Requiem to be a bit of miscasting. The intent is clearly there, but the voice really isn't (although the orchestra-heavy engineering of that recording doesn't help her). Ths is music for an Aida, not an Amina.


Indeed. I've always thought Sutherland was completely miscast in the Verdi Requiem too. It's perfect for a Tebaldi or a Leontyne Price. Or Jessye Norman, who is absolutely superb in a live version conducted by Muti with the Bavarian Radio Symphony Orchestra. On the other hand Schwarzkopf and Scotto, neither of whom had the ideal voice for the piece, are also surprisingly successful, due to the fact that their voices are firmer in the middle register, and because of their intelligent use of the text, clearly enunciated.


----------



## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

GregMitchell said:


> Indeed. I've always thought Sutherland was completely miscast in the Verdi Requiem too. It's perfect for a *Tebaldi or a Leontyne Price. Or Jessye Norman*, who is absolutely superb in a live version conducted by Muti with the Bavarian Radio Symphony Orchestra. On the other hand Schwarzkopf and Scotto, neither of whom had the ideal voice for the piece, are also surprisingly successful, due to the fact that their voices are firmer in the middle register, and because of their intelligent use of the text, clearly enunciated.


Price: yes
Norman and Tebaldi: no

imo, the requiem requires a voice with strong _lyrical_ capabilities. much of it is light, delicate, floating, and the entire requiem requires a florid, elegant legato. Sutherland's recording in 1960 perfectly showcases this side as well as the more obvious dramatic qualities required for the role

PS: I agree wholeheartedly about Schwarzkopf. hers is actually my favorite recording.


----------



## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

Despite her annoying mushy middle which developed later in her career, I was a strong devotee of Joan Sutherland from the beginning of my opera loving days. No she was never a superb actor or an emotional performer yet for simply out-and-out magnificent singing her "Art of the Prima Donna" is a tour de force.
I recall being in my car with the windows open and playing it at top volume when I happened to be stopped at a red light when she hit a particularly spectacular high note. The guy in the next car gave me a big thumbs up and an effusive nod of his head.
The lady stands alone for the biggest and most powerful highs I have ever heard from any soprano -- ever!
She earned the name La Stupenda!


----------



## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

BalalaikaBoy said:


> Norman and Tebaldi: no
> 
> imo, the requiem requires a voice with strong _lyrical_ capabilities. much of it is light, delicate, floating, and the entire requiem requires a florid, elegant legato. Sutherland's recording in 1960 perfectly showcases this side as well as the more obvious dramatic qualities required for the role
> 
> PS: I agree wholeheartedly about Schwarzkopf. hers is actually my favorite recording.


Sorry I can't hear it. Sutherland simply doesn't have the strength and body in the middle register that the soprano part requires. As Woodduck says, it was written with an Aida voice in mind. 
Norman in the live Munich recording under Muti is absolutely superb, her _Libera me_ one of the best I've ever heard (no problem projecting the middle range for her of course). Have you actually heard it? It's on youtube, but you won't find it anywhere else, though you will find plenty of performances of Norman singing the mezzo part.
Tebaldi too, in some of the live performances I've heard, sounds as if she was born to sing this music.
Schwarzkopf, on the other hand, doesn't, but she convinces because of her intelligence and superb musicianship.


----------



## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

GregMitchell said:


> Sorry I can't hear it. Sutherland simply doesn't have the strength and body in the middle register that the soprano part requires. As Woodduck says, it was written with an Aida voice in mind.
> Norman in the live Munich recording under Muti is absolutely superb, her _Libera me_ one of the best I've ever heard (no problem projecting the middle range for her of course). Have you actually heard it? It's on youtube, but you won't find it anywhere else, though you will find plenty of performances of Norman singing the mezzo part.
> Tebaldi too, in some of the live performances I've heard, sounds as if she was born to sing this music.
> Schwarzkopf, on the other hand, doesn't, but she convinces because of her intelligence and superb musicianship.


once again, a strong middle register is important, but there are much more delicate, lyrical phrases of the requiem as well.
compare




vs





additionally, it was the bottom 1/3 of Sutherland's voice which was problematic. most of her middle register was fine. not quite as weighty as some of the spinto sopranos, but plenty strong (you probably prefer the latter, which is fine). to my ears, Sutherland sings the requiem like a lightning goddess.

PS: my favorites in order are:
1) Arroyo
2) Schwarzkopf (yay! I can finally spell it from memory! )
3) Price
4) Sutherland


----------



## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

BalalaikaBoy said:


> once again, a strong middle register is important, but there are much more delicate, lyrical phrases of the requiem as well.
> compare
> 
> 
> ...


Whereas mine would be 
1. Schwarzkopf
2. Norman 
3. Scotto 
4. L. Price (on Karajan's video recording)
5. Tebaldi (can't imagine why Decca never recorded her in it).

Sutherland doesn't even make my top ten.


----------



## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

GregMitchell said:


> Whereas mine would be
> 1. Schwarzkopf
> 2. Norman
> 3. Scotto
> ...


as expected, you like your sopranos a bit darker and lower in tessitura than I do. I have to admit, having listened to Tebaldi's rendition between responses, it was better than I was expecting.


----------



## Bellinilover (Jul 24, 2013)

Florestan said:


> I will only comment that Joan Sutherland does nothing for me. I had a double disc set of her arias and got rid of it. I retain the La Fille du Regiment with her and Pavarotti mainly because there is no better recording on CD (If only I could get a soundtrack for the Mariella Devia La Fille du Regiment I would get rid of the other one). Not that Sutherland is not great, but she just does not fit my tastes. (I do love Mariella Devia's voice even though many say she does not sing with emotion, but with cold, precise technical ability. Yet I feel she does show great emotion in the La Fille du Regiment DVD.)


Not wanting to criticize your perceptions and tastes, I will mention that I recently got rid of that Alagna/Devia recording of L'ELISIR D'AMORE because I thought the leads were charmless. I'm afraid I have to agree with those who say Devia was technically adept but emotionless; I wanted more character in her Adina than she provided. And it's not just Adina; I've heard her in other things, too (though not FILLE DU REGIMENT) and, to be frank, she does nothing for me. On the other hand, the more I've listened to Sutherland over the years the more warmth and feeling I hear in her singing. I wouldn't call her characterizations profound, but there is emotion there and I'm glad BalalaikaBoy hears it too.


----------



## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

Bellinilover said:


> Not wanting to criticize your perceptions and tastes, I will mention that I recently got rid of that Alagna/Devia recording of L'ELISIR D'AMORE because I thought the leads were charmless. I'm afraid I have to agree with those who say Devia was technically adept but emotionless; I wanted more character in her Adina than she provided. And it's not just Adina; I've heard her in other things, too (though not FILLE DU REGIMENT) and, to be frank, she does nothing for me. On the other hand, the more I've listened to Sutherland over the years the more warmth and feeling I hear in her singing. I wouldn't call her characterizations profound, but there is emotion there and I'm glad BalalaikaBoy hears it too.


Unless you are a Devia nut like me, I could understand getting rid of her L'elisir. It just is not vibrant. Yes the La Fille du Regement DVD is wonderful, and her Adelia on CD is very good. The Adina that does it for me is Valeria Esposito--just overflowing with emotion and wonderful voice. Yeah, maybe I jumped too soon on Sutherland. Time will tell. I do have the La Fille du Regiment on CD with her and Pavarotti, so I will be listening to her regularly there.


----------



## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

Florestan said:


> Unless you are a Devia nut like me, I could understand getting rid of her L'elisir. It just is not vibrant. Yes the La Fille du Regement DVD is wonderful, and her Adelia on CD is very good. The Adina that does it for me is Valeria Esposito--just overflowing with emotion and wonderful voice. Yeah, maybe I jumped too soon on Sutherland. Time will tell. I do have the La Fille du Regiment on CD with her and Pavarotti, so I will be listening to her regularly there.


This is interesting because one of the 'moments' I think Sutherland sings with emotion is in _Fille du regiment_ in the aria 'Il faut partir'. It's very touching. Callas recorded the aria in italian in the sixties (and when past her best), and the Callas version is nowhere near as heartfelt as Sutherland's.

N.

P.S. For Elisir try Gheorghiu and Alagna, there recording is complete and full of sparkle.


----------



## Bellinilover (Jul 24, 2013)

Florestan said:


> Unless you are a Devia nut like me, I could understand getting rid of her L'elisir. It just is not vibrant. Yes the La Fille du Regement DVD is wonderful, and her Adelia on CD is very good. The Adina that does it for me is Valeria Esposito--just overflowing with emotion and wonderful voice. Yeah, maybe I jumped too soon on Sutherland. Time will tell. I do have the La Fille du Regiment on CD with her and Pavarotti, so I will be listening to her regularly there.


It's interesting: in Rossini's comedies I think you can go a long way with technical precision alone, but L'ELISIR needs personality too or else, as you say, it's "not vibrant." And I'm not just singling out Devia here; it seemed to me that no one in the recording had much in the way of personality.


----------



## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

Bellinilover said:


> And I'm not just singling out Devia here; it seemed to me that no one in the recording had much in the way of personality.


I got the same impression.


----------



## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Sutherland and her husband Bomynge tended to concentrate on the Bel Canto repertoire which calls for singing over emotion. I heard Sutherland talk once about this sort of thing and she said that in her opinion if people wanted drama they should go to the theatre not the opera house. However, when a big dramatic voice was required she could produce the goods as in her Turandot, which I actually prefer to Nilsson's as it's warmer in tone and gives a hint this Turandot might just fall in love. I think Joan was smart to choose her parts with care. She came unstuck sometimes in (eg) Trovatore but for the most part she was indeed La Stupenda.


----------



## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

DavidA said:


> Sutherland and her husband Bomynge tended to concentrate on *the Bel Canto repertoire which calls for singing over emotion.* I heard Sutherland talk once about this sort of thing and she said that in her opinion if people wanted drama they should go to the theatre not the opera house. However, when a big dramatic voice was required she could produce the goods as in her Turandot, which I actually prefer to Nilsson's as it's warmer in tone and gives a hint this Turandot might just fall in love. I think Joan was smart to choose her parts with care. She came unstuck sometimes in (eg) Trovatore but for the most part she was indeed La Stupenda.


Whilst this is a widely held opinion, I don't think it is true. Bel Canto can be intensely emotional. Listen to Callas' 1955 Scala Norma, any of her recordings of 'Sofriva il pianto' from Lucia, her 1949 Puritani mad scene (her first truly heart wrenching studio recording), her live 1959 Il Pirata (she said the key to understanding Imogene was that she was a woman who had suffered much), then there's her Anna Bolena... and Callas wasn't the only singer to invest this music with emotion.

N.


----------



## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

The Conte said:


> Whilst this is a widely held opinion, I don't think it is true. Bel Canto can be intensely emotional. Listen to Callas' 1955 Scala Norma, any of her recordings of 'Sofriva il pianto' from Lucia, her 1949 Puritani mad scene (her first truly heart wrenching studio recording), her live 1959 Il Pirata (she said the key to understanding Imogene was that she was a woman who had suffered much), then there's her Anna Bolena... and Callas wasn't the only singer to invest this music with emotion.
> 
> N.


Note I didn't say it was without emotion. I said it tends to call for singing (bel canto) over emotion.


----------



## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Anyone who wants to hear Sutherland do emotion should listen to her Donna Anna on the Giulini set of Don Giovanni!


----------



## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

DavidA said:


> Note I didn't say it was without emotion. I said it tends to call for singing (bel canto) over emotion.


Well yes and no.

Bellini himself wrote to the librettist of *I Puritani*, "The opera must draw tears, terrify people, make them die through singing."

It is clear from all his writings that he put emotion very high on his list of requirements.

And Romani, the librettist of *La Sonnambula* had this to say about the role of Amina.

"The role of Amina, even though at first glance it may seem very easy to interpret, is perhaps more difficult than many others which are deemed more important. It requires an actress who is playful, ingenuous and innocent, and at the same time passionate, sensitive and amorous; who has a cry for joy and also a cry for sorrow, an accent for reproach and another for entreaty… This was the role created by Bellini's intellect."

However beautifully she sings, I don't get all this from Sutherland and her Amina remains a somewhat cardboard figure.

Bellini wrote both Norma and Amina for Giuditta Pasta, a singer renowned for her great dramatic gifts, and later it was Malibran, another singer well known for her histrionic abilities, who became his favourite singer.

It is possible to invest the music of the _bel canto_ with emotion. Callas is a prime example of course, but Janet Baker is another. Just listen to her Maria Stuarda, her Romeo, even her Smeton in a concert performance of *Anna Bolena* from Carnegie Hall.

Caballe could do it at times too, especially live. Her studio recordings can be a bit dull, but her Norma from Orange is fantastic. I've also heard some superb live performances of *Lucrezia Borgia* and *Maria Stuarda*

That is not to say Sutherland's singing is cold and emotionless. It isn't, but the emotion tends to be of a generic, generalised type. I hear no real difference between her Lucia and her Norma other than the notes themselves. Character through music was not her strong point.

And incidentally, this is not Sutherland bashing. I understand that for many the beautiful sounds she makes, the bell-like clarity on high and the ease of coloratura carry all before them, but we all respond to music differently, and, for me, emotional connection is paramount, a gift for communication. My favourite singers all have this gift - Callas, Baker, Schwarzkopf, De Los Angeles, Wunderlich, Hunt Lieberson (oh what a loss), Vickers, Bjoerling, Gedda, Gobbi, Christoff, Teyte, and also the countertenor David Daniels.

Sutherland is just one of the great singers, whose greatness I acknowledge, whilst noting that they never really _speak_ to me.


----------



## Camillorf (Jul 18, 2014)

I read the following quote on Wikipedia  by John Yohalem:


> On my personal color scale... Sutherland is among the "blue" sopranos... There is a coolness here that can take on the passion in the music but does not inject passion where the music lacks it, could possibly use it.


I think this sums up my sentiments towards Sutherland's singing nicely, and it also ties in with what others have said; Her voice has a personal warmth that lends itself well to some music, particularly lyrical passages, but, like Greg said, her emotions sound somewhat generic and she doesn't quite delve into psychological complexity of the characters.


----------



## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

DavidA said:


> Anyone who wants to hear Sutherland do emotion should listen to her Donna Anna on the Giulini set of Don Giovanni!


I love her Anna on the Giulini recording, but hers is still a relatively placid presence. Others (Grummer with Furtwangler, Moser in the Losey film, for instance) have given the role a sharper focus.


----------

