# What is, in your opinion, the finest demonstration of orchestration?



## Debusatie (Aug 27, 2013)

In other words, which piece do you think has brought the orchestra to its peak of instrumental capabilities and techniques?

For me, I would choose Cappricio Espagnol by Rimsky-Korsakov, or Daphne Et Chloe by Ravel.


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## merlinus (Apr 12, 2014)

I would include many of Mahler's symphonies, especially no. 2.


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## Aramis (Mar 1, 2009)

Chopin, the piano concertos


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Mussorgsky-Ravel, Pictures at an Exhibition.


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## GioCar (Oct 30, 2013)

Aramis said:


> Chopin, the piano concertos


Oh yes, particularly the keyboards section


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## shadowdancer (Mar 31, 2014)

hpowders said:


> Mussorgsky-Ravel, Pictures at an Exhibition.


Fully agreed.
+1


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## GioCar (Oct 30, 2013)

Berlioz, Symphonie Fantastique


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

The Ring...................


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## Blake (Nov 6, 2013)

Mahler was a king of orchestration - any one of his symphonies.


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## Simon Moon (Oct 10, 2013)

hpowders said:


> Mussorgsky-Ravel, Pictures at an Exhibition.


Yeah, I like that choice.

Bartok's 'Concerto for Orchestra" also comes to mind.


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## violadude (May 2, 2011)

"which piece do you think has brought the orchestra to its peak of instrumental capabilities and techniques?"

Hmm interesting question...composers today are still finding new sounds for the orchestra to make so strictly in terms of "peak of instrumental capabilities and techniques" maybe we aren't there yet.


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## Weston (Jul 11, 2008)

violadude said:


> "which piece do you think has brought the orchestra to its peak of instrumental capabilities and techniques?"
> 
> Hmm interesting question...composers today are still finding new sounds for the orchestra to make so strictly in terms of "peak of instrumental capabilities and techniques" maybe we aren't there yet.


Yes, this.^ Violadude beat me to it.

Of those that have gone before, almost any Respighi has awesome orchestration if we are looking into unusual timbres and so forth. Brazillian Impressions, Church Windows, Gli Ucelli. These are all dazzling in orchestral color.

Some days though I prefer more muted colors, both in visual art and in aural art. Sometimes I prefer the orchestra not to drown out the music so to speak, so I may favor more subtle orchestral colors. I'd need to think more on who I have in mind for that.


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## SottoVoce (Jul 29, 2011)

Schoenberg's transcription of Brahm's Piano Quartet no. 1 or Schoenberg's Gurrelieder, or Erwartung, or Webern's transcription of the Musical Offering is nice too, and his Symphony as well. The Second Viennese School were actually great orchestrators; pre twelve-tone atonalism, according to Rosen, was trying to prioritize "tone" or "color" over pitch. The twelve-tone was a regression back to pitch. One thinks of that beautiful ending of Erwartung, where the music fades slowly away, or Farbe, which is basically pure orchestration. How it could any better than that?


And of course, the usuals; Haydn's Symphonies, La Mer, Brahms (who is underrated in that department, and the first one after Mozart to pay full attention to the inner voices, and the middle tones), etc, etc.


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## Polyphemus (Nov 2, 2011)

Bruckner Symphony 5, particularly the last movement where all the threads are are woven together brilliantly.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

I'm in accord with SottoVoce on this. Webern's Im Sommerwind, or his Passacaglia Op. 1. Then, that Schoenberg/Brahms which I call "The Fifth Symphony." I have this one on CD:


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## chalkpie (Oct 5, 2011)

Ligeti's Violin Concerto is pretty much pushing boundaries orchestration-wise.

Lutoslawski Symphony No. 3 ain't no slouch either. I agree on the Mahler and a number of Stravinsky works, but to my ears Ligeti and Lut go even further expanding the sonic palette.


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## pretentiousaaron (Apr 24, 2014)

Bartok's Concerto for Orchestra was my immediate response as well.


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## aleazk (Sep 30, 2011)

chalkpie said:


> Ligeti's Violin Concerto is pretty much pushing boundaries orchestration-wise.
> 
> Lutoslawski Symphony No. 3 ain't no slouch either. I agree on the Mahler and a number of Stravinsky works, but to my ears Ligeti and Lut go even further expanding the sonic palette.


Also the Piano Concerto!, and Lontano!


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## pretentiousaaron (Apr 24, 2014)

Aramis said:


> Chopin, the piano concertos


I know of a concerto competition from my home town of Fort Collins, CO. The conductor remarked to his orchestra, who was to rehearse these for a good month or so before the soloists even arrived in town, that he once played the viola part for one of the Chopin concertos and it was the closest thing to hell on earth of his musical career. He then told them that this year the three finalists were playing Rachmaninov's first and BOTH of the Chopin Concertos. The orchestra was less than enthused, and it was the most hideously boring concert I'd seen in a LONG time. In other words, emphatically, no, No, NO! The Chopin Concertos may be the pinacle of piano writing for the genre, but the orchestration is terrible and could have been done by a second year music student. Maybe this is the reason he only wrote three works that had an orchestral part. Three too many in my opinion.


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## shangoyal (Sep 22, 2013)

Aramis said:


> Chopin, the piano concertos


Stay away from those amazing concertos!


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## Morimur (Jan 23, 2014)

Let's not forget Messiaen, who was also a masterful orchestrator. 'Des canyons aux étoiles' is a great example.


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## Alfacharger (Dec 6, 2013)

My finest demonstration in orchestration would be a film score. Yes it can be a bit saccharine and ugly. It is based on a film featuring Unicorns and Goblins. It has synthesizers galore and it is probably a score to one of Ridley Scott's worst films. Composer Jerry Goldsmith with the help of Alexander Courage wove a moving impressionistic score.

An extended 20 minute you tube video suite of "Legend".


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## Blake (Nov 6, 2013)

Takemitsu is pretty rad.


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## Morimur (Jan 23, 2014)

Vesuvius said:


> Takemitsu is pretty rad.


Speaking of Takemitsu, Japanese composers are rarely mentioned here in TC. Personally, I know only of a handful.


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## Blake (Nov 6, 2013)

Lope de Aguirre said:


> Speaking of Takemitsu, Japanese composers are rarely mentioned here in TC. Personally, I know only of a handful.


The only one I can think of now is Takemitsu. Damn, and I love Japanese. I need to wake up a bit.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

violadude said:


> "which piece do you think has brought the orchestra to its peak of instrumental capabilities and techniques?"
> nsounds for the orchestra to make so strictly in terms of "peak of instrumental capabilities and techniques" maybe we aren't there yet.


Given that instruments, what people do with them, and the constitution of the orchestra, all change, we may never be there.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

To the critics of Chopin's piano concertos, I second this:



shangoyal said:


> Stay away from those amazing concertos!


I listened to these two beautiful works for years and never gave a thought to their orchestration - I certainly wasn't thinking "Why didn't he bring the horns in there?" - until I read somewhere that it wasn't any good. Maybe, but it never sounds unidiomatic or awkward, and it seems to do its job, which is not to say "listen to this interesting blend of timbres" but rather to carry Chopin's musical ideas and set off his gorgeous piano writing. I for one do not feel a need to spoil my pleasure by wishing these concertos were something they are not.


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## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

Lope de Aguirre said:


> Speaking of Takemitsu, Japanese composers are rarely mentioned here in TC. Personally, I know only of a handful.


If you like Lachenmann and Ligeti, you might find a good deal to enjoy in Toshio Hosokawa, whose works are pretty well represented on ECM and Wergo.


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## Morimur (Jan 23, 2014)

Mahlerian said:


> If you like Lachenmann and Ligeti, you might find a good deal to enjoy in Toshio Hosokawa, whose works are pretty well represented on ECM and Wergo.


I know the name but not the music. Thanks for the rec!


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## bigshot (Nov 22, 2011)

Ravel's "Daphnis et Chloe" gets my vote for most amazing orchestration. After that, it would be Tchaikovsky's Nutcracker Suite and Stravinsky's Petrushka and Rite of Spring.


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## Blake (Nov 6, 2013)

Mahlerian said:


> If you like Lachenmann and Ligeti, you might find a good deal to enjoy in Toshio Hosokawa, whose works are pretty well represented on ECM and Wergo.


You're the one who turned me towards Takemitsu to begin with, so I'll take advantage of this one as well. 
:tiphat:


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## mikey (Nov 26, 2013)

pretentiousaaron said:


> Maybe this is the reason he only wrote three works that had an orchestral part. Three too many in my opinion.


Actually there's 5 works for piano and orchestra. But I also say if you want to hear what can be done with these so called terrible orchestral parts, then have a listen to Zimerman's recording with the Polish Festival Orchestra!

As for the topic, every composer used the orchestra differently so it depends what you're up for.
Elgar, Strauss, Ravel, Tchaik, Mozart, Rimsky, Respighi all first rate orchestrators. Hell, even Schumann in the 4th movt of the Rhenish is good.


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## HaydnBearstheClock (Jul 6, 2013)

Haydn's Creation, The Seasons and the Harmony mass have to be up there, imo. The London symphonies also have the some great examples, notably the Adagio of Symphony No. 102.


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## techniquest (Aug 3, 2012)

I think that Berlioz' "Symphonie Fantastique" would have held the crown for a very long time, but my outstanding choices would be:
Ravel - La Valse
Lutoslawski - Concerto for Orchestra


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## pole (Apr 25, 2014)

Beethovens 9th must certainly be up there


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## Weston (Jul 11, 2008)

Alfred Schnittke uses some very unusual orchestral colors at times too, at least in the very few pieces I've heard. I had forgotten about him.


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## GGluek (Dec 11, 2011)

Obviously there's no one correct answer, and all of the above are good (although I'll agree there's nothing in the Chopin concerti that requires a top flight orchestra). Mahler is extraordinary, Berlioz super imaginative, Ravel thoroughly, imaginatively professional. I have great fondness for Rimsky's re-orchestration of Boris Godunov -- which may not be Mussorgsky exactly, but is terrific in it's own way. Stravinsky, Brahms, Lutoslawski, Takamitsu, Bartok, Messiaen . . . All are good. I really like the Ritaua Dances from Tippett's The Midsummer Marriage -- which are an example of remarkably dense writing which doesn't sound it at all because of the orchestration.


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## QuietGuy (Mar 1, 2014)

Debusatie said:


> For me, I would choose Cappricio Espagnol by Rimsky-Korsakov, or Daphne Et Chloe by Ravel.


Stravinsky's _Rite of Spring_


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## cliftwood (Apr 17, 2014)

QuietGuy said:


> Stravinsky's _Rite of Spring_


The Rite of Spring ranks very high but the single most astounding orchestration has to be Mahler's 3rd Symphony.


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## LudwigKaramazov (Mar 30, 2014)

Ravel's orchestration of Le tombeau de Couperin and Pictures at an Exhibition and Debussy's La Mer


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## spradlig (Jul 25, 2012)

I agree that music for or with orchestra need not have excellent orchestration to be good music.



Woodduck said:


> To the critics of Chopin's piano concertos, I second this:
> 
> I listened to these two beautiful works for years and never gave a thought to their orchestration - I certainly wasn't thinking "Why didn't he bring the horns in there?" - until I read somewhere that it wasn't any good. Maybe, but it never sounds unidiomatic or awkward, and it seems to do its job, which is not to say "listen to this interesting blend of timbres" but rather to carry Chopin's musical ideas and set off his gorgeous piano writing. I for one do not feel a need to spoil my pleasure by wishing these concertos were something they are not.


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## ArtMusic (Jan 5, 2013)

Joseph-Maurice Ravel's ever popular _Boléro_!


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## DeepR (Apr 13, 2012)

Scriabin's symphonic poems.
Mahler symphonies (the ones I've heard at least)


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