# Help me get into Bach without the war-horses!



## DiesIraeCX (Jul 21, 2014)

I've always had some difficulty getting fully into Bach, I've tried the sacred choral works and while I've enjoyed quite a bit of it, I've never been properly "pulled in" like I expected to be.

So, I would like you to suggest to me 10 of your favorite works by Bach (preferably instrumental, but does not have to be). *The catch is that you cannot include any of the famous war-horses that everyone knows*. Therefore, _*no*_ WTC, Goldberg's, Art of the Fugue, Mass in B Minor, St. Matthew's, Brandenburg Concertos.

Thanks in advance!


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## cimirro (Sep 6, 2016)

DiesIraeCX said:


> I've always had some difficulty getting fully into Bach, I've tried the sacred choral works and while I've enjoyed quite a bit of it, I've never been properly "pulled in" like I expected to be.
> 
> So, I would like you to suggest to me 10 of your favorite works by Bach (preferably instrumental, but does not have to be). The catch is that you cannot include any of the famous war-horses that everyone knows. Therefore, _no_ WTC, Goldberg's, Art of the Fugue, Mass in B Minor, St. Matthew's, Brandenburg Concertos.
> 
> Thanks in advance!


Try this - no special order at all

Organ Fantasy BWV.572
Prelude BWV.938 
Prelude BWV.999
Sinfonia No.15 BWV.801
French Suite Bwv.812 (or a possible changing - Sonata Bwv.963)
Suite BWV.823
Fantasia BWV.906
Aria Variata BWV.989
Fugue BWV.1000
Als Jesus Christus in der Nacht BWV.1108

Hope this helps
All the best
Artur Cimirro


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## Kjetil Heggelund (Jan 4, 2016)

Some that I love are the viola da gamba sonatas bwv 1027-29 and violin sonatas bwv 1014-19. Any organ work too


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## Larkenfield (Jun 5, 2017)

Just one suggestion for now: Jeremy Denk's performance of the _Goldberg Variations_.

There are many Bachs: the explorer, the teacher, the inventor, the secular writer, the sacred writer, the simple harmonist, the complex harmonist, the master of fugues and counterpoint, the explorer of different scale temperaments, and about as many more of him as his 20 children -- music written to an extremely high standard that he hopes will please God as well as himself.

Sometimes I listen to him to wash away the dirt, so to speak, of daily life, especially on a Sunday morning. He's always giving his best and offering something that he feels is spiritually bigger than himself. I've heard a lot of him and never heard him waiver from that, though sometimes his music can be a little bit too busy, unrelenting, industrious or serious for me. I would also not attribute him with a noticeable sense of humor; but unquestionable genius and invention, yes. He's invariably positive but I've never heard him laugh out loud, either. Much depends upon my mood at the time whether I wish to hear him. The quality of performance can also make for a huge difference in hearing him at his best.
:tiphat:


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## Taplow (Aug 13, 2017)

Esurientes From Magnificat In E Flat, BWV243
Schafe Können Sicher Weiden Wo Ein Guter Hirte Wacht - from Cantata No. 208, BWV 208, "Was Mir Behagt (Hunt Cantata)"
Concerto In C Minor For 2 Harpsichords, BWV 1060 - especially the Adagio
Concerto In D Minor For 2 Violins, BWV 1043, "Double"
Cantata No. 170, BWV 170, "Vergnügte Ruh, Beliebte Seelenlust" 
Trio Sonata No. 1 In E Flat, BWV 525
Trio Sonata No. 5 In C, BWV 529
Harpsichord Concerto in D Minor BWV 1052
Italian Concerto in F major BWV 971
Cello Suite No. 1 in G major, BWV 1007


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## bharbeke (Mar 4, 2013)

You can decide for yourself how equine these are, but here are some recommendations:

English Suite No. 2 (Andras Schiff)
French Suite Nos. 5 and 6 (Murray Perahia 2016)
Keyboard Partita Nos. 2 and 3 (Sergey Schepkin)(from Anna's notebook)
Italian Concerto (Schiff)
Piano Concerto No. 3 (Wallez, Tacchino, Ensemble Orchestral de Paris)

I have yet to get into Bach to the point where he cracks my top 10, but he has a lot of compositions of merit.


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

I concur with kjetil Heggelund about Bach's organ works. I suggest starting with the Pastorale, then hitting the Leipzig Chorales and the Clavier-Ubung III (also known as the German Organ Mass). There's a treasure trove of Bach organ music. If you get hooked, you'll wonder how you ever lived a good life without it.


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## eugeneonagain (May 14, 2017)

bharbeke said:


> You can decide for yourself how equine these are, but here are some recommendations:
> 
> .....
> *Piano Concerto No. 3 (Wallez, Tacchino, Ensemble Orchestral de Paris)*
> ...


_Piano_ concerto? This was definitely a harpsichord concerto.


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

eugeneonagain said:


> _Piano_ concerto? This was definitely a harpsichord concerto.


That's the way to go. Those piano mavens are always trying to insert 'piano' into Bach's music titles.


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## bharbeke (Mar 4, 2013)

When performed by pianos, it becomes a piano concerto. It may be called a harpsichord or keyboard concerto elsewhere.


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## tdc (Jan 17, 2011)

bharbeke said:


> You can decide for yourself how *equine* these are, but here are some recommendations:
> 
> English Suite No. 2 (Andras Schiff)
> French Suite Nos. 5 and 6 (Murray Perahia 2016)
> ...


You mean how closely the following works are related to horses? 

Good suggestions though so far everyone, I would recommend the organ trios BWV 525-530, but if the pieces you mentioned in the OP aren't really doing it for you maybe Bach just isn't your 'thing' right now.


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## DiesIraeCX (Jul 21, 2014)

bharbeke said:


> You can decide for yourself how equine these are, but here are some recommendations:





tdc said:


> You mean how closely the following works are related to horses?


I'm fairly certain he's referring to my usage of the term, "war-horse". I can decide for myself if these are considered war-horses or not.


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

bharbeke said:


> When performed by pianos, it becomes a piano concerto. It may be called a harpsichord or keyboard concerto elsewhere.


I refer to my post #9; I rest my case.


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## tdc (Jan 17, 2011)

DiesIraeCX said:


> I'm fairly certain he's referring to my usage of the term, "war-horse". I can decide for myself if these are considered war-horses or not.


Yes I just realized that but you beat me to it. I was a little slow on that one - thanks.

Good one bharbeke.


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## DiesIraeCX (Jul 21, 2014)

tdc said:


> but if the pieces you mentioned in the OP aren't really doing it for you maybe Bach just isn't your 'thing' right now.


That very well may be the case, however, this thread is an attempt to make a concerted effort because I _have_ caught many glimpses of the genius and greatness that so many see in Bach. It's absolutely there, I would never deny that, it's just my "instruments" aren't as finely tuned right now to pick up the signal like so many others' are. I'm just not willing (yet) to chalk it up to a case of "he's not my thing". I want to try a little more.

As for my methodology, it's somewhat similar to how my approach to Beethoven went. While it is true that I enjoyed Beethoven's war-horse works, like the 5th and 9th symphonies, from the get-go, it was the more intimate, lesser known works that made him my favorite composer. I mean works like piano sonata #28, cello sonata #4, violin sonata #10, the early piano sonatas, string quartet 16, and the like. Therefore, perhaps if I take the road less traveled for Bach, I will find what I've been looking for.

:tiphat:


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## eugeneonagain (May 14, 2017)

bharbeke said:


> When performed by pianos, it becomes a piano concerto. It may be called a harpsichord or keyboard concerto elsewhere.


Really? So Elgar's violin concerto played on a viola turns it into Elgar's viola concerto?

Yes it's commonly referred to as a keyboard concerto. On the composers manuscript it is clearly scored for 'cembalo certato' i.e. specifically written out part for a harpsichord.


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## bharbeke (Mar 4, 2013)

eugeneonagain said:


> Really? So Elgar's violin concerto played on a viola turns it into Elgar's viola concerto?
> 
> Yes it's commonly referred to as a keyboard concerto. On the composers manuscript it is clearly scored for 'cembalo certato' i.e. specifically written out part for a harpsichord.


The record company for that performance calls it a keyboard concerto. That's what I would call it in a formal setting, too, but it's easier for me to type piano concerto than keyboard concerto performed on a piano. Anyway, it's BWV 1054, and Bach knew what he was doing when he wrote it, and so do many performers on many types of instruments.


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## Blancrocher (Jul 6, 2013)

Highly partial to BWV 904--particularly in this version of Sokolov, which outclasses all my recorded versions.


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## eugeneonagain (May 14, 2017)

bharbeke said:


> [...] Anyway, it's BWV 1054, and Bach knew what he was doing when he wrote it...


That's right, writing it for a harpsichord. I know the BWV number thanks very much.

I'm no 'period instruments' fanatic, I prefer Bach's Goldberg on a piano, but I'd never refer to it as a piano work, because it ain't so.

Anyway, here's the D minor with the adjacent number 1052. On a harpsichord:


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

bharbeke said:


> The record company for that performance calls it a keyboard concerto. That's what I would call it in a formal setting, too, but it's easier for me to type piano concerto than keyboard concerto performed on a piano. Anyway, it's BWV 1054, and Bach knew what he was doing when he wrote it, and so do many performers on many types of instruments.


From my perspective, that's a very good response.


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

eugeneonagain said:


> That's right, writing it for a harpsichord. I know the BWV number thanks very much.


I don't think bharbeke was trying to educate you. The BWV number does take away all confusion and/or disagreement about what work we're talking about. Still, I cringe when I hear/read 'Bach's English Suites for Piano" or something on that order.


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## mmsbls (Mar 6, 2011)

DiesIraeCX said:


> That very well may be the case, however, this thread is an attempt to make a concerted effort because I _have_ caught many glimpses of the genius and greatness that so many see in Bach. It's absolutely there, I would never deny that, it's just my "instruments" aren't as finely tuned right now to pick up the signal like so many others' are. I'm just not willing (yet) to chalk it up to a case of "he's not my thing". I want to try a little more.
> 
> As for my methodology, it's somewhat similar to how my approach to Beethoven went. While it is true that I enjoyed Beethoven's war-horse works, like the 5th and 9th symphonies, from the get-go, it was the more intimate, lesser known works that made him my favorite composer. I mean works like piano sonata #28, cello sonata #4, violin sonata #10, the early piano sonatas, string quartet 16, and the like. Therefore, perhaps if I take the road less traveled for Bach, I will find what I've been looking for.


I find this phenomenon interesting, but I may not be understanding what you actually mean. Would you say you enjoyed Beethoven's less known works more than the more famous ones? You liked Beethoven but only came to love him after hearing the "lesser" works?

Are you saying you don't really like Bach's major works and hope to truly enjoy the "lesser" ones?


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## DiesIraeCX (Jul 21, 2014)

mmsbls said:


> I find this phenomenon interesting, but I may not be understanding what you actually mean. Would you say you enjoyed Beethoven's less known works more than the more famous ones? You liked Beethoven but only came to love him after hearing the "lesser" works?
> 
> Are you saying you don't really like Bach's major works and hope to truly enjoy the "lesser" ones?


The two situations certainly weren't completely analogous, if that clarifies anything.

I'll respond to your questions in order:

*Would you say you enjoyed Beethoven's less known works more than the more famous ones?*

I certainly enjoy Beethoven's "quieter", intimate, lesser-known works more than the war-horses. The biggest exception being that Beethoven's Ninth is my favorite symphony and my second favorite work. However, on the whole, I prefer Beethoven's late period more than the heroic middle period. I _much_ prefer piano concerto #4 over #5 "Emperor".

*You liked Beethoven but only came to love him after hearing the "lesser" works?*

I would say that's pretty accurate. That said, I'll admit Beethoven was my favorite from the beginning, but it doesn't really hold much water because I only knew of Beethoven's Ninth, Schubert's Ninth, Brahms' 1st, and Mozart's 40th. This was when I was extremely new to classical music. Let's just say it was the late period works, the more intimate and lesser-known works that cemented Beethoven as my all-time favorite.

*Are you saying you don't really like Bach's major works and hope to truly enjoy the "lesser" ones?*

I do _like_ his major works. But I want to see the towering genius, I want to see the composer that so many people see as the greatest composer. Now that you see that I do, in fact, like his major works, perhaps you'll better see my rationale. My hope was that maybe a lesser known work would do the trick, make me a "full convert", so to speak.

I'm glad that you used "lesser" when you say, "... and hope to truly enjoy the "lesser" ones?". That's just it, I don't think the non-warhorse works are lesser works. They're merely lesser-known works, but not necessarily lesser works. For example, nobody could ever convince me that Beethoven's ubiquitous "Emperor" piano concerto is a greater work that his Opus 101 or Opus 109 or Opus 58. So, if I'm led to a lesser-known work by Bach, perhaps I'll be led to a "greater" work, if that makes any sense.

*addendum*: Imagine someone finding Beethoven's "Emperor" concerto and thinking to themselves, "Ok that was good, okay, but not great. What's all the commotion for this Beethoven guy?". Then one day they stumble upon his piano concerto #4, or piano sonata #28, or cello sonata #4 and absolutely fall in love with it.


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## Botschaft (Aug 4, 2017)

If this doesn't help you then God help you.


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## mmsbls (Mar 6, 2011)

DiesIraeCX said:


> ...That's just it, I don't think the non-warhorse works are lesser works. They're merely lesser-known works, but not necessarily lesser works. For example, nobody could ever convince me that Beethoven's ubiquitous "Emperor" piano concerto is a greater work that his Opus 101 or Opus 109 or Opus 58. So, if I'm led to a lesser-known work by Bach, perhaps I'll be led to a "greater" work, if that makes any sense.


I think I understand. I guess I would not have considered Beethoven's Opuses 58, 101, and 109 to be "lesser" works, but I suppose many listeners may view them that way. I think many TC members enjoy Beethoven's Piano Concerto 4 more than 5, as I do, but I think most love both.

Would you consider Bach's Cello Suites lesser known? If so, you might give those a try.


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## brianvds (May 1, 2013)

What you could also do is try out Bach's music, warhorses or not, played on other instruments than originally intended. Bach's music lends itself very well to this. E.g. I personally actually prefer guitar performances of his works for solo violin.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

DiesIraeCX said:


> I've always had some difficulty getting fully into Bach, I've tried the sacred choral works and while I've enjoyed quite a bit of it, I've never been properly "pulled in" like I expected to be.
> 
> So, I would like you to suggest to me 10 of your favorite works by Bach (preferably instrumental, but does not have to be). *The catch is that you cannot include any of the famous war-horses that everyone knows*. Therefore, _*no*_ WTC, Goldberg's, Art of the Fugue, Mass in B Minor, St. Matthew's, Brandenburg Concertos.
> 
> Thanks in advance!


Do you want vocal or instrumental tips?


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## Larkenfield (Jun 5, 2017)

Just a thought. But how is it possible to get into any composer, especially IMO an immortal such as Bach, when someone who asks for suggestions ties the hands of listeners and restricts their choices? I'm not convinced it works that way, and it's far better to ask for outstanding performances of just about any preferably instrumental work rather than a composer's lesser-known or more obscure works. They may be lesser known for a reason... Some of the "war-horses" have remained challenging for over 250 years and there's always someone new who's usually able to bring out something special in them. It's also possible that someone like Bach is just not intended for some listeners if others have to jump through hoops to try and convince someone of his worth. There's tons of Bach on YT to randomly explore if one takes the initiative.


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

Cello suites
St John's Passion
Cantata Ich habe genug

and any 7 organ works.


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## tdc (Jan 17, 2011)

Art Rock said:


> Cello suites
> St John's Passion
> Cantata Ich habe genug


I think these works have pretty much attained war horse status, however if these qualify as something the OP hasn't listened to then I second these suggestions, all of those works are outstanding.


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

I avoided the list of warhorses in the OP. There's no clear distinction where a piece becomes a warhorse after all.


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## Botschaft (Aug 4, 2017)

Larkenfield said:


> Just a thought. But how is it possible to get into _any_ composer when someone asking for help ties the hands of listeners and restricts their choices? I don't think it works that way, and it's far better to ask for outstanding performances of just about anything rather than a composer's lesser known or more obscure works. They may be lesser known for a reason. Some of the "war-horses" have remained challenging for over 250 years and there's always someone new who's bringing out something special in them.


People have quite different ideas of what outstanding performances are, but, since you brought it up, here is one of the mass in B minor (Anders Eby).


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

DiesIraeCX said:


> I certainly enjoy Beethoven's "quieter", intimate, lesser-known works more than the war-horses.


Try the organ prelude BWV 656, one of the Leipzig Chorales; and the prelude BWV 678 from Clavier Übung III. Maybe some of the early partitas based on hymn tunes too, there's a performance by Gustav Leonhardt of BWV 767 on the Alpha label using a sort of harpsichord which may fit the bill.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

The problem is that Bach's great choral works are the some of the greatest artistic works ever written by a man. However, if you are not ready for them try the Italian Concerto played by Glenn Gould


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## Skilmarilion (Apr 6, 2013)




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## Mal (Jan 1, 2016)

Concerto in C Minor for two Keyboards and Strings BWV1060
Double Concerto in D Minor for two violins, strings and continuo BWV1043
Violin Concerto No. 1 in A Minor BWV1041
Violin Concerto No. 2 in E Major BWV1042

- all available on the same disk, Grumiaux/Krebbers (violins), Soloists Romandes/Arpad Gerecz Phillips analogue. This is my desert island disk. If it fails then there is no hope for you, and you should give up Bach immediately


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Mal said:


> Concerto in C Minor for two Keyboards and Strings BWV1060
> Double Concerto in D Minor for two violins, strings and continuo BWV1043
> Violin Concerto No. 1 in A Minor BWV1041
> Violin Concerto No. 2 in E Major BWV1042
> ...


But these are all war-horses........


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## Botschaft (Aug 4, 2017)

Pugg said:


> But these are all war-horses........


If anything that isn't obscure is a war-horse then there aren't many of his greatest works left, are there though?


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## DiesIraeCX (Jul 21, 2014)

Larkenfield said:


> Just a thought. But how is it possible to get into any composer, especially IMO an immortal such as Bach, when someone who asks for suggestions ties the hands of listeners and restricts their choices? I'm not convinced it works that way...


Larkenfield, I'm afraid it's not that complicated. It _does_ indeed work that way for some people, not everyone is the same. This was explained in depth in the two posts I've exchanged with mmsbls. I've also explained that I've not been able to fully get into Bach with the most popular warhorses like the Mass in B minor or the Brandenburg Concertos. It's not about "tying the hands" of the posters, it's merely about recommending non-war horse works, which multiple posters have no problem doing.

My favorite composer is Beethoven (if that hasn't been clear enough), if someone asked for recommendations that weren't the ever-present war-horses like the 9th and 5th symphonies, the Emperor concerto, the Moonlight sonata, the Violin Concerto, etc. I would have no issues whatsoever in recommending to them lesser known Beethoven works.



Larkenfield said:


> It's also possible that someone like Bach is just not intended for some listeners *if others have to jump through hoops to try and convince someone of his worth.* There's tons of Bach on YT to randomly explore if one takes the initiative.


Could you please point out where I said _anything_ about having people "jump through hoops" or where I said anything about having people "convince me of Bach's worth"? You are reading way too much into this. Have I somehow offended you with this thread? Read my post #15 and tell me how I'm not convinced of Bach's worth. It's literally the opposite, I wouldn't even have made this thread if I weren't convinced:



DiesIraeCX said:


> ... I _have_ caught many glimpses of the genius and greatness that so many see in Bach. It's absolutely there, I would never deny that, it's just my "instruments" aren't as finely tuned right now to pick up the signal like so many others' are. I'm just not willing (yet) to chalk it up to a case of "he's not my thing". I want to try a little more.


About taking the initiative on YouTube, yes, I could do that. But I'm a member of this community on TalkClassical and I value the thoughts, insight, viewpoints, opinions, and recommendations of these TC members, so I'm taking advantage of that. Is there an issue with that?


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## mmsbls (Mar 6, 2011)

DiesIraeCX said:


> About taking the initiative on YouTube, yes, I could do that. But I'm a member of this community on TalkClassical and I value the thoughts, insight, viewpoints, opinions, and recommendations of these TC members, so I'm taking advantage of that. Is there an issue with that?


I agree strongly with this sentiment. I have spent much time listening to randomly chosen composers or works. I think getting suggestions from people I know or forums of which I'm familiar is enormously more productive for me. I think we all know that TC members are happy to suggest works or composers, and this forum is my favorite source for such suggestions.


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## DiesIraeCX (Jul 21, 2014)

mmsbls said:


> I agree strongly with this sentiment. I have spent much time listening to randomly chosen composers or works. I think getting suggestions from people I know or forums of which I'm familiar is enormously more productive for me. I think we all know that TC members are happy to suggest works or composers, and this forum is my favorite source for such suggestions.


Absolutely, and for myself, it helps me visualize my thoughts. It makes something abstract very concrete. My brain very much likes that, I'm a visual person/learner. Instead of wandering around YouTube, I can now narrow it down to an actual, tangible list of works.


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## Blancrocher (Jul 6, 2013)

Aria variata alla maniera italiana, BWV 989

Lovely set of variations--the link above is from a classic album by Gould. I got to know the piece listening to Rosalyn Tureck:


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## Marinera (May 13, 2016)

Bach's Trio Sonata for Organ No.4 in E minor BWV 528 got me into Bach and popular Air on G-string. Both equally. There are more of those trio sonatas for the organ if you'd like to research them.


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## Honegger (Sep 8, 2017)

I hope this is not a "warhorse" as you say, but Bach cello suite are the best! Get the Fournier, that is very good! Maybe Isserlis or Casal, but it is personal. Those three (oh maybe poor Schiff) are definitive.


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## Larkenfield (Jun 5, 2017)

When exploring certain composers, yes, it can be helpful to get recommendations as _a starting point_ - if the hands of those making the suggestions aren't immediately restricted by the person making the request, which can put an immediate damper on the process. On the other hand, it's also possible simply to immerse oneself into a sea of performances presented by a composer and not waiting to be convinced by others, making it their responsibility instead, with many choices presented by Bach, and simply listen to a series of performances while suspending judgment about whether the music is good or bad. There's an advantage by taking the initiative and not waiting around for opinions that might not be characteristic of the music or the composer at all. But it usually requires that one pay greater attention to one's own inner responses to someone like Bach (or anyone else) and experience his exceedingly wide range of emotions, settings and various moods. It's perhaps an even more effective and adventurous way to have direct perception of the music and discover that not all "war-horses" of Bach's major works are what they might appear to be on the surface.


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## Mal (Jan 1, 2016)

DiesIraeCX said:


> ... you cannot include any of the famous war-horses.


What war horses? A "war horse" is a work that is hackneyed; that is, overused, unoriginal, and trite. The greatest works of Bach are not, in good performances, overused, unoriginal, or trite.


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## DiesIraeCX (Jul 21, 2014)

Mal said:


> What war horses? A "war horse" is a work that is hackneyed; that is, overused, unoriginal, and trite. The greatest works of Bach are not, in good performances, overused, unoriginal, or trite.


There's no need to attribute these adjectives to the term "warhorse". There may be _implication_ that the work is hackneyed, but by no means does it _explicitly_ or only mean that. Beethoven's Ninth is a warhorse. Brahms' 4th is a warhorse. Bach's Brandenburg Concertos are a warhorse.

The nuances of the definition are understood through the context in which the word was used. I've not once used the term warhorse to attribute or even almost imply any of the negative adjectives you've listed.

*Wiktionary*: (theater, music) A regularly revived theatrical or musical work, as with Hamlet or a Beethoven symphony, or as excerpts thereto. _May_ imply that the work in question has become hackneyed. 
*Merriam-Webster*: something (such as a work of art or musical composition) that has become overly familiar _or_ hackneyed due to much repetition in the standard repertoire


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## Blancrocher (Jul 6, 2013)

Not sure if Bach's lute/guitar music counts as rare exactly, but I thought I'd mention this desert-island favorite:










I'll buy pretty much anything played by Julian Bream, but this has always stood out for me. Bach sounds well in the context of this compilation, imo.


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## Chandler Bing (Sep 9, 2017)

-Suite No. 1 in C Major for Orchestra, BWV 1066: Overture
-Concerto No. 2 in E Major for Violin and Strings, BWV 1042: I. Allegro
-Cantata BWV 208, "Was mir behagt, ist nur die muntre Jagd!": IX. Schäfe können sicher weiden (Sheep may safely graze)
-Partita No. 2 in D Minor for Solo Violin, BWV 1004: V. Chaconne
-Concerto No. 1 in A Minor for Violin and Strings, BWV 1041: I. Allegro
-Concerto No. 1 in C Minor for Two Harpsichords and Orchestra, BWV 1060: I. Allegro
-St. Matthew Passion, BWV 244: Finale Chorus
-Concerto No. 5 in F Minor for Harpsichord and Orchestra, BWV 1056: II. Arioso: Largo
-Fugue in G Minor, BWV 578, "Little Fugue"
-Cantata, BWV 147, "Herz und Mund und Tat und Leben": Jesu bleibet meine Freude (Jesu, Joy of Man's Desiring)


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## johankillen (Sep 20, 2015)

Cantata Widerstehe doch der sunde


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## larold (Jul 20, 2017)

Item/recommended recording

Musical Notebook for Anna Magdalena/Leonhardt, Ameling, Linde etc.

Prelude and Fugue in E flat BWV 552, "St. Anne"/Bruce Hurford

Toccata, Adagio and Fugue in C minor BWV 564/Dubravka Tomsic piano

Cantata BWV 78, "Jesu, der du meine Seele"/Prohaska

Cantata BWV 106, "Gottes Zeit ist die allerbeste Zeit"/Prohaska

Cantata BWV 71, "Gott ist mein Konig"/Rilling

Musical Offering BWV 1079/Harnoncourt

Harpsichord Concerto in F minor BWV 1056/George Malcolm harpsichord

Double Concerto for Violin, Oboe and Strings BWV 1060/Prohaska

Triple Concerto for Flute, Violin, Harpsichord and Strings BWV 1044/Prohaska

Easter Oratorio BSV 249/Munchinger

Magnificat BWV 243/Wofl, Watts, Lewis, Hemsley, Jones on LP or Munchinger on CD

Keyboard Partitas 1-6, BWV 825-830:
No. 1 Dubravka Tomsic
No. 2 Rosalyn Tureck
No. 3 Kristina Svanberg
No. 4 Glenn Gould
No. 5 Andra Schiff on Hungaraton HCD 11690
No. 6 Elena Kuschnerova


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## Mal (Jan 1, 2016)

No one should call Bach's masterpieces "war horses".

http://www.nytimes.com/1998/10/18/arts/l-musical-war-horses-beethoven-s-mysteries-369624.html

https://welltempered.wordpress.com/...e-my-masterpieces-and-i-wanting-to-hear-them/

No sensible literary critic calls the works of Tolstoy "old hat" just because they have been published more often than most, not even in irony. So why do music critics continue to use the term "war horse"? If you read War & Peace twenty times, in a year, it may become too familiar to be enjoyable, but you don't then call it a war horse. It remains a masterpiece. If anything *you* are the war horse for wearing yourself by reading it too often.


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## DiesIraeCX (Jul 21, 2014)

Mal said:


> No one should call Bach's masterpieces "war horses".
> 
> http://www.nytimes.com/1998/10/18/arts/l-musical-war-horses-beethoven-s-mysteries-369624.html
> 
> ...


You don't want to participate because the term has offended you, then don't participate. It's that easy. I'm not going to stop using the term warhorse, not for Beethoven, Brahms, or Bach.

Good day.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

larold said:


> Item/recommended recording
> 
> Musical Notebook for Anna Magdalena/Leonhardt, Ameling, Linde etc.
> 
> ...


I see 10 war-horses at least in this list.


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

Pugg said:


> I see 10 war-horses at least in this list.


I only see 3 at most (the concertos).


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## premont (May 7, 2015)

larold said:


> Item/recommended recording
> 
> Double Concerto for Violin, Oboe and Strings BWV 1060/Prohaska
> 
> Triple Concerto for Flute, Violin, Harpsichord and Strings BWV 1044/Prohaska


Could you provide a link to these two recordings, because I have never heard of them being recorded by Prohaska (the conductor Felix Prohasha I presume). Thanks in advance.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Mal said:


> What war horses? A "war horse" is a work that is hackneyed; that is, overused, unoriginal, and trite. The greatest works of Bach are not, in good performances, overused, unoriginal, or trite.


You are correct. Bach, "war horses"??? Ridiculous and insulting to the memory of the greatest composer who ever lived!!!

Completely concur! War-horses should be deployed to North Korea to fight the madman Kim!!! :tiphat:


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## larold (Jul 20, 2017)

<<Double Concerto for Violin, Oboe and Strings BWV 1060/Prohaska
Triple Concerto for Flute, Violin, Harpsichord and Strings BWV 1044/Prohaska
Could you provide a link to these two recordings, because I have never heard of them being recorded by Prohaska (the conductor Felix Prohasha I presume). Thanks in advance. >>

It is part of this box: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00KS0ASOU/ref=sr_1_51_rd?_encoding=UTF8&child=B00KS0BVLO&qid=1505164845&sr=1-51</a>

I have the two concertos on LP on Amadeo AVRS 19028; they were available on other labels too. I found LP sellers at Discogs if you prefer an LP:

https://www.discogs.com/search/?q=Amadeo+AVRS+19028&type=all


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## DiesIraeCX (Jul 21, 2014)

hpowders said:


> You are correct. Bach, "war horses"??? Ridiculous and insulting to the memory of the greatest composer who ever lived!!!
> 
> Completely concur! War-horses should be deployed to North Korea to fight the madman Kim.!!! :tiphat:


You say this today, but then tomorrow will be something completely different. I wonder which hpowders this is today.


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## Botschaft (Aug 4, 2017)

Let's not argue over semantics when we all know what OP, who clearly doesn't mean to disrespect the composer, is referring to.


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## larold (Jul 20, 2017)

_Harpsichord Concerto in F minor BWV 1056/George Malcolm harpsichord

Double Concerto for Violin, Oboe and Strings BWV 1060/Prohaska

Triple Concerto for Flute, Violin, Harpsichord and Strings BWV 1044/Prohaska

Warhorses? I'd like to know the last time anyone heard these played in concert or on the radio. Names and dates, please._


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## premont (May 7, 2015)

larold said:


> <<Double Concerto for Violin, Oboe and Strings BWV 1060/Prohaska
> Triple Concerto for Flute, Violin, Harpsichord and Strings BWV 1044/Prohaska
> Could you provide a link to these two recordings, because I have never heard of them being recorded by Prohaska (the conductor Felix Prohasha I presume). Thanks in advance. >>
> 
> ...


I suspected that. Then it is this one, which I once owned on vinyl.

https://www.amazon.com/Solisti-Zagreb-Play-Antonio-Janigro/dp/B00QOQ6H9C/ref=sr_1_15?
s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1505164533&sr=1-15&keywords=bach+janigro


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## premont (May 7, 2015)

larold said:


> _Harpsichord Concerto in F minor BWV 1056/George Malcolm harpsichord
> 
> Double Concerto for Violin, Oboe and Strings BWV 1060/Prohaska
> 
> ...


_

They are not so often played live, as one should think, but there are very many recordings of all three concertos._


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## larold (Jul 20, 2017)

<<They are not so often played live, as one should think, but there are very many recordings of all three concertos. >>

I just counted 7 pages of recordings of Messiaen's Turangalia symphony. Guess that makes it a warhorse?

Such is the folly of the warhorse arguments going on here.


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## Razumovskymas (Sep 20, 2016)

Just try Glenn Gould!!

-partitas
-toccatas


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