# What's your favorite recording of Beethoven's Symphonies from the modern lot?



## Lord Lance

Although the definition for when modern recording and old recording started are a bit unclear, still I'd say from the 90s...

Mine personally is Barenboim's set....

While we are at the subject, what's the most "turbocharged" [So to speak] recording of his symphonies you have ever heard? By my reckoning, Chailly conducts at a pace which is so unusual and fast, it should have its own separate category : Chaily-fast. From what I have heard, he follows the metronome marking to the letter; no offence to the composer's vision for his own work, but my,oh,my, they really take the soul of out the symphonies. The pace, in my opinion, destroy the works.


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## Couac Addict

If it has to be an entire cycle...maybe the Harnoncourt/Chamber Orchestra of Europe or Zinman/Zurich Tonhalle Orchestra


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## Vaneyes

Harnoncourt, P. Jarvi. :tiphat:


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## shadowdancer

Harnoncourt.


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## realdealblues

Ludwig van Beethoven said:


> Although the definition for when modern recording and old recording started are a bit unclear, still I'd say from the 90s...
> 
> Mine personally is Barenboim's set....
> 
> While we are at the subject, what's the most "turbocharged" [So to speak] recording of his symphonies you have ever heard? By my reckoning, Chailly conducts at a pace which is so unusual and fast, it should have its own separate category : Chaily-fast. From what I have heard, he follows the metronome marking to the letter; no offence to the composer's vision for his own work, but my,oh,my, they really take the soul of out the symphonies. The pace, in my opinion, destroy the works.


I have to completely disagree. Most of the time Jarvi and Toscanini and even Leonard Bernstein aren't that far off from Chailly. There are a couple where he does fly a bit faster (#6 is a bit quick for many) but overall if you look at the track times and the overall feel, he isn't that far off for the most part. They are energetic and fresh and dynamic rather than filled with tension and drama. Both styles work with Beethoven in my mind.

My favorites are Furtwangler, Toscanini, Kletzki, Szell & Bernstein (NY). But from the modern recordings I find Chailly offers us something different and an interesting alternative.

Barenboim does fine in several of the symphonies, but absolutely ruins Symphony #1 which is probably my favorite Symphony. I remember reading how Barenboim was so much like Furtwangler, but after listening to Barenboim's set my main response was "playing something slow doesn't make you Furtwangler".

Furtwangler's 1952 VPO recording of Symphony #1 is one of the finest ever recorded. Barenboim should have taken notes.

Some people want their Beethoven lean, some want it massive, some want it fast, some want it slow, some want it filled with drama, some want it filled with energy. Luckily there's a recording out there for everyone.


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## AClockworkOrange

In terms of recordings from the 1990's onwards, I would have to go with Van Immerseel and Harnoncourt both of whom offer a different approach in HIP direction - in contrast to my preferred cycles.

I say preferred because aside from individual recordings, there are no complete cycles which grab me as a whole after the 1970's. The Ninth being the weakest link in many for me. My preferred cycles are those of Furtwangler and Klemperer, with preferred individual recordings including any by Carlos Kleiber (the Sixth especially), Klaus Tennstedt and Ferenc Fricsay. Props also to Bernstein with the VPO (DVD).

Van Immerseel and Harnoncourt are more or less equal but neither has a Ninth which grabs me.

Chailly is hit and miss for me but that is due to personal taste rather than the performances themselves.

The Barenboim was my first, alongside Furtwangler and I would agree with Realdealblues.


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## Lord Lance

Zinman or Immerseel - Which is a more historically accurate? Or are both the same in that aspect?

If so, how does one differentiate 'Seel with 'Man?


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## Couac Addict

Ludwig van Beethoven said:


> Zinman or Immerseel - Which is a more historically accurate? Or are both the same in that aspect?
> 
> If so, how does one differentiate 'Seel with 'Man?


Zinman follows the correct metronome markings.


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## Lord Lance

Ah....

Immerseel it is!


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## Dan Hornby

I'm afraid I would have to say the Gardiner set is my favourite. The climax to the opening movement of the 9th is stunning.

EDIT: The Barenboim was also my first set and is probably my 2nd favourite. Barenboim in my opinion produces excellent all-round performances. Nothing spectacular usually, but nothing awful or average either.


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## Blake

I really enjoy Vanksa. His wide dynamics aren't for everyone, but it works for me.


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## BRHiler

I love my Chailly set. He doesn't try to go for "historical accuracy". He plays them as if we were in the 21st century with 21st century listeners. I respect the whole historical idea, but most of those recordings leave me flat.


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## Morimur

Chailly's set is a winner. Beethoven's symphonies were not meant to be slow and dim witted.


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## SONNET CLV

Ludwig van Beethoven said:


> Although the definition for when modern recording and old recording started are a bit unclear, still I'd say from the 90s...











I realize this Kempe set was recorded in the early 1970s, but the SACD version was not released until December 2011 to celebrate the 25th anniversary of the Esoteric brand.

I've long pondered which of my forty or so sets of Complete Beethoven Symphonies I would choose if I had to live with only one, and the Kempe/Münchner Philharmoniker set always seemed to win out ... and that was _before_ the SACD set was released. Anymore it's a no brainer. This is Beethoven at his best, and in startling recorded detail and ambience to boot.

OK. So I cheated. Tough! This is _the_ set. End of story.


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## SixFootScowl

I guess I am unqualified as I have not heard many Beethoven Symphony cycles. I usually listen to 1-8 from Gunter Wand in the 1980s but fall back to 1950s for Fricsay on the Ninth. I know that Gardiner has a wonderful Eroica and if the rest of his cycle is as good that would be a great pick, but I don't care for his Ninth.


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## csacks

DG released, in 2014, the Leonard Bernstein Collection. The first box is almost fully dedicated to Beethoven. It has the records from the VPO, can not tell the exact year of recording, but, it is spectacular. They are very mature versions and well balanced. My vote goes for them, albeit I have not listened Chailly yet.


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## revdrdave

Ludwig van Beethoven said:


> Mine personally is Barenboim's set....


Which one? Dresden? East/West?


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## Declined

Anyone ever hear the Zinman set? How is it?


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## SalieriIsInnocent

I got to throw in my recommendation for the Immerseel set as well. 

Barenboim with the Berliner Staatskapelle on the Teldec label is my favorite newer recording for modern instruments. Though I don't care for the vocal choices on the 9th. Bernstein or Walter Weller for 9th finale.


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## realdealblues

Declined said:


> Anyone ever hear the Zinman set? How is it?


I've got it. He uses faster tempos and modern instruments. He was the first one I think to use the Barenreiter edition, featuring Jonathan Del Mar's painstakingly researched scores. Honestly though, I find it kind of bland. It's well played but without any real fire. Thomas Dausgaard recorded a cycle shortly after using the same edition with the Swedish Chamber Orchestra and he had far greater success. Much more vitality and power.


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## Declined

SalieriIsInnocent said:


> I got to throw in my recommendation for the Immerseel set as well.
> 
> Barenboim with the Berliner Staatskapelle on the Teldec label is my favorite newer recording for modern instruments. Though I don't care for the vocal choices on the 9th. Bernstein or Walter Weller for 9th finale.


I listened to the Immerseel set, which just arrived yesterday. It's very good. Though the 9th, with the smaller orchestra, just doesn't do it for me. Everything else, is great. The 5th Symphony is intense to say the least.


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## Überstürzter Neumann

There are many great sets, but Harnoncourt would be my desert island choice.


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## DiesIraeCX

I have problems recommending whole sets because it's immensely difficult for a single conductor to get all the symphonies correctly, yet if you are planning on supplementing your cycle with individual recordings, then I'm all for getting a cycle.

Ok, for modern, I'd go with Zinman/Tonhalle Zurich Orchestra. His "Eroica" symphony changed the way I heard it, it was like hearing it for the first time. You would think that a Funeral March would be hurt by faster tempos, but magically it just works fantastically. There is a clarity that I don't hear in Karajan 1963's "Eroica". In Zinman's Eroica, you feel that it is indeed a "March". 
Zinman offers fast tempos but with a modern orchestra and instruments, it's a wonderful end product. That being said, I don't particularly enjoy ANY of the HIP recordings of the 9th symphony. The 9th is a different animal to me. I'll take Karajan 1963 for my favorite 9th.

If you don't mind original instruments, I would also suggest Gardiner's 1994 cycle with the ORR and supplement it with his recording of symphonies 5 and 7 at live at Carnegie Hall. You can feel the energy in that recording.


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## hpowders

^^^I agree. I have quite a few sets-Abbado, Wand, Toscanini, NBC, 1938, Mackerras, Vänskä, and Chailly.

None of them produce satisfying performances of all nine symphonies.


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## SixFootScowl

hpowders said:


> ^^^I agree. I have quite a few sets-Abbado, Wand, Toscanini, NBC, 1938, Mackerras, Vänskä, and Chailly.
> 
> None of them produce satisfying performances of all nine symphonies.


Wand is find for the first 8 but then I have to hear Fricsay for the Ninth. But then I am not nearly as discriminating with music as I am with vocals.


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## DiesIraeCX

Florestan said:


> Wand is find for the first 8 but then I have to hear Fricsay for the Ninth. But then I am not nearly as discriminating with music as I am with vocals.


I adore Fricsay's Final movement for the 9th, it's the best I've ever heard. It's clear, the vocals are at the forefront rather than the countless recordings where the vocalists and chorus are extremely muffled and delegated to the background. In fact, no matter the recording I listen to, I always switch to the Fricsay for the Finale.

I actually make a playlist of my ideal 9th where I mix and match my favorite movements. It's usually something like this:

Mov 1 - Karajan 1963 BPO
Mov 2 - Muti Philadelphia SO 
Mov 3 - Fricsay 1958 BPO or Karajan 1977 BPO
Mov 4A - Karajan 1963 BPO
Mov 4B - Fricsay 1958 BPO


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## SixFootScowl

DiesIraeVIX said:


> I actually make a playlist of my ideal 9th where I mix and match my favorite movements. It's usually something like this:
> 
> Mov 1 - Karajan 1963 BPO
> Mov 2 - Muti Philadelphia SO
> Mov 3 - Fricsay 1958 BPO or Karajan 1977 BPO
> Mov 4A - Karajan 1963 BPO
> Mov 4B - Fricsay 1958 BPO


Fascinating! I have about 33 Ninths (several I haven't listened to) and none are as wonderful as the 4b of Fricsay. Fricsay's has the perfect voices with excellent clarity.

I must say I am quite impressed with the You Tube Ninth from Japan with a 10,000 voice choir.


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## KenOC

From the modern lot? Gardiner I guess, but Chailly is pulling up behind...


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## DiesIraeCX

Florestan said:


> Fascinating! I have about 33 Ninths (several I haven't listened to) and none are as wonderful as the 4b of Fricsay. Fricsay's has the perfect voices with excellent clarity.
> 
> I must say I am quite impressed with the You Tube Ninth from Japan with a 10,000 voice choir.


It's nice to meet another collecter of 9th recordings! I have 12 recordings and same with me, there are a couple I haven't quite got to, like Szell's and Gardiner's. 
I'll have to check out that 9th in Japan video, a 10,000 voice choir definitely sounds intriguing.


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## SixFootScowl

One that I am told I must hear is Furtwangler. I suppose I should get a copy.

Here is the Japanese 10,000 voice Ninth, part 4b:


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## DiesIraeCX

If you do get a recording from Furtwangler, I suggest the historic 1942 Berlin performance, it's very intense. You should get the remastered recording from PristineClassical.com, whatever you do, don't get it from Amazon, the quality is bad. I learned the hard way.

Furtwangler Beethoven 9th, 1942 Berlin - http://www.pristineclassical.com/pasc250.html

PS. I should warn you, even the remastered version still isn't what we'd call "good" quality, it's just a big improvement from the others. Make sure to play the sample provided on the page for an example.


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## Guest

Gardiner, Vanska, and Paavo Jarvi for modern recordings. If it is HIP you want, then Gardiner's is great, but also good in general. Immerseel I view more as a very interesting curiosity, but wouldn't list as a "best." Vanska and Jarvi are wonderful, but I find Vanska more consistent.


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## SixFootScowl

DiesIraeVIX said:


> If you do get a recording from Furtwangler, I suggest the historic 1942 Berlin performance, it's very intense. You should get the remastered recording from PristineClassical.com, whatever you do, don't get it from Amazon, the quality is bad. I learned the hard way.
> 
> Furtwangler Beethoven 9th, 1942 Berlin - http://www.pristineclassical.com/pasc250.html
> 
> PS. I should warn you, even the remastered version still isn't what we'd call "good" quality, it's just a big improvement from the others. Make sure to play the sample provided on the page for an example.


Thanks. By the way, here is a free download of a very nice Ninth from 1935 conducted by Felix Weingartner. It is transcribed from 78 rpm record and has a hiss but still very wonderful performance, and if you look at their Creative Commons License it appears legitimate for downloading. They give it in four files either VBR (variable bit rate) MP3 or Ogg Vorbis, or the entire work in one zip file. Also info files. Nice deal. Great music. Free. You can play the whole think in the online player at the upper right of the page, download it, or both. The reviews below the listing indicate that the site also has the Ninth conducted by Otto Klemperer for download. I think I also have that one.

Here is the 1956 Otto Klemperer Ninth, live from Dual-track Open Reel Tape (in Mono).


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## Manxfeeder

DiesIraeVIX said:


> If you do get a recording from Furtwangler, I suggest the historic 1942 Berlin performance, it's very intense.


I agree. Somebody described it as "Right in the Fuhrer's Face."


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## DiesIraeCX

Manxfeeder said:


> I agree. Somebody described it as "Right in the Fuhrer's Face."


Yes! I completely agree with that assessment, I definitely see it as an act of defiance or protest. Not to mention he wouldn't even shake Goebbel's or Hitler's hand. I have a lot of respect for Furtwangler as a human being.


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## Conky

Paavo Jarvi handles Beethoven no. 5 excellently, in my opinion. Very emphatic, almost a "stomping" feel.


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## csacks

I have got a set of DVD about all LvB´s symphonies directed by Paavo Jarvi, recorded in Bohn. It was bought at Beethoven´s house, in Bohn. I like his 5th, but also the 6th. The tempest is remarkable. Unfortunately, Beethoven was not around that day, so it is not signed, but it is something:lol:


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## xpangaeax

One of the reasons I joined the forum here is to learn more about choosing different recordings, etc. I've been sampling some of the names mentioned here, and I'm blown away by the Zinman. I'm used to Karajan on the 5th, and enjoy hearing it played a touch faster. It also sounds really full in the recording, and you can really hear the descending clarinet line get taken over before the repeat (something I honestly never even noticed before.) I'll keep poking around YouTube and seeing if who on other symphonies really stands out to me.


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## Ivansen

Posted in the wrong thread.


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## Itullian

Ludwig van Beethoven said:


> Although the definition for when modern recording and old recording started are a bit unclear, still I'd say from the 90s...
> 
> Mine personally is Barenboim's set....
> 
> While we are at the subject, what's the most "turbocharged" [So to speak] recording of his symphonies you have ever heard? By my reckoning, Chailly conducts at a pace which is so unusual and fast, it should have its own separate category : Chaily-fast. From what I have heard, he follows the metronome marking to the letter; no offence to the composer's vision for his own work, but my,oh,my, *they really take the soul of out the symphonies*. The pace, in my opinion, destroy the works.


SOUL? What's that?
Today, everyone wants speed and adrenaline. Soul?


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## Guest

Itullian said:


> SOUL? What's that?
> Today, everyone wants speed and adrenaline. Soul?


I think there are examples of people overdoing it in both directions. Fast doesn't mean soulless, anymore that slow means soulful. Fast can mean spirited, while slow can mean ponderous and overwrought.


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## Itullian

DrMike said:


> I think there are examples of people overdoing it in both directions. Fast doesn't mean soulless, anymore that slow means soulful. Fast can mean spirited, while slow can mean ponderous and overwrought.


Not with the great conductors.
And I think most of the speeds today are soul robbing.
So we'll differ on that.

But then I love Celi's, Klemp, Walter and Giulini.


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## DiesIraeCX

DrMike said:


> I think there are examples of people overdoing it in both directions. Fast doesn't mean soulless, anymore that slow means soulful. Fast can mean spirited, while slow can mean ponderous and overwrought.


My thoughts exactly! Slow does not automatically mean Soulful/Profound just as much as fast does not automatically mean soulless/superficial. There are *so many other factors* that go into it. Orchestral clarity, momentum, direction, phrasing, etc. Look at Kleiber's Beethoven 5th and 7th symphonies, the tempos are very brisk. Who is gonna claim that those two symphonies lack soul or spirit?


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## Itullian

DiesIraeVIX said:


> My thoughts exactly! Slow does not automatically mean Soulful/Profound just as much as fast does not automatically mean soulless/superficial. There are *so many other factors* that go into it. Orchestral clarity, momentum, direction, phrasing, etc. Look at Kleiber's Beethoven 5th and 7th symphonies, the tempos are very brisk. Who is gonna claim that those two symphonies lack soul or spirit?


I would disagree.. Speed means a lot in bringing out depth and feeling.


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## DiesIraeCX

Itullian said:


> I would disagree.. Speed means a lot in bringing out depth and feeling.


But it so clearly doesn't, you're essentially telling people how they feel about music with faster tempos. I say I do hear depth and feeling in this music and you reply, "I disagree, speedy tempos takes away depth and feeling". As I've already stated, the nearly universally praised Carlos Kleiber recording of Beethoven's 5th and 7th, which has very fast tempi compared to Furtwangler or Bohm. Yet, I hear as much depth and emotion in Kleiber's as I do in any of the slower great recordings.

The difference in our opinions seems to be that I'm saying that tempi do not dictate depth/feeling. I say there can be profound amounts of feeling and depth in a faster tempo recording *as well as* a slower recording of the same work. Kleiber and Furtwangler are *both* phenomenal conductors, yet both were on opposite ends of the spectrum with regards to tempi.

In summary. A slow recording can be great. A fast recording can be great. You seem to be saying that only a slower recording can be great (i.e., have depth/feeling). Kleiber and Furtwangler didn't merely tell the orchestra to play fast or slow, there is so much more to it.


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## Guest

Itullian said:


> Not with the great conductors.
> And I think most of the speeds today are soul robbing.
> So we'll differ on that.
> 
> But then I love Celi's, Klemp, Walter and Giulini.


Don't get me wrong. I love Klemperer, he is one of my favorite conductors. As for Celibidache, he is hit and miss with me (more miss), but I do love his Bruckner 4th.

Honestly, except for the extreme examples (like Immerseel's Beethoven symphonies, for example), I don't pay so much attention to the tempi. I get wonderful things out of listening to Beethoven's symphonies, whether conducted by Szell, or Klemperer, or Furtwangler, or Karajan, or Gardiner, or Jarvi, or Vanska. Mozart's symphonies are as wonderful to me whether I am listening to them conducted by Bohm, or Klemp, or Jacobs.


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## Itullian

DrMike said:


> Don't get me wrong. I love Klemperer, he is one of my favorite conductors. As for Celibidache, he is hit and miss with me (more miss), but I do love his Bruckner 4th.
> 
> Honestly, except for the extreme examples (like Immerseel's Beethoven symphonies, for example), I don't pay so much attention to the tempi. I get wonderful things out of listening to Beethoven's symphonies, whether conducted by Szell, or Klemperer, or Furtwangler, or Karajan, or Gardiner, or Jarvi, or Vanska. Mozart's symphonies are as wonderful to me whether I am listening to them conducted by Bohm, or Klemp, or Jacobs.


Cool, but we would differ on that.
Yes, you always hear different things on different recordings.

But its Klemp, Walter, Celi, et al, that bring out the depth in these works.
They are the soulmen 
I've owned the Gardiner, Hogwood, Norrington and they can be interesting but very little depth and soul.


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## Vaneyes

Itullian said:


> Not with the great conductors.
> And I think most of the speeds today are soul robbing.
> So we'll differ on that.
> 
> But then I love Celi's, Klemp, Walter and Giulini.


Each to his own tempi. As with too many things, there is no correct answer.

Celi aside, clearer examples for me (I'll use Eroica) would be Klemps and Giulini on the slow side, and Scherchen on the fast side. I prefer not, these extreme examples.

I'm generally biased against Klemperer and Giulini slowness, but not Scherchen for speed, because it can vary greatly according to the work. His more normal LvB 6 & 8 work for me, as does his slow (dramatic) M2. Klemps quicker-paced M2s (the fastest of many) work for me, too.

Just sayin', tempi pref. shouldn't be rigid.:tiphat:


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## Itullian

Gardiner, et al = Munchkin music


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## Guest

Itullian said:


> Gardiner, et al = Munchkin music


Yes, but Celibidache treated every work like it was meant to be a solemn funeral procession. Celibidache = undertaker music.


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## dgee

Some people will never get over the mid-century mush machine exemplified by Klemperer, Celibidache and others! I guess it has the strong pull of nostalgia, comfort and class (connotations of plush drawing room furniture) that just appeals to some as a "stamp of quality". Maybe that's nice in Bruckner (maybe!) but in Beethoven?? 

However, I think the preference for music to to sound more alive is winning out in winning out in concert halls and recording deals around the world


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## Itullian

DrMike said:


> Yes, but Celibidache treated every work like it was meant to be a solemn funeral procession. Celibidache = undertaker music.


Spiritual my friend..........Spiritual.


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## Itullian

dgee said:


> Some people will never get over the mid-century mush machine exemplified by Klemperer, Celibidache and others! I guess it has the strong pull of nostalgia, comfort and class (connotations of plush drawing room furniture) that just appeals to some as a "stamp of quality". Maybe that's nice in Bruckner (maybe!) but in Beethoven??
> 
> However, I think the preference for music to to sound more alive is winning out in winning out in concert halls and recording deals around the world


Fads pass.
We'll see who lasts my friend.............


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## Guest

Those old conductors are for me like the old big Cadillacs and the Lincoln Towncars. I recognize that they are classy cars and that they were the epitome of class at one point - these days, they just seem overly large, and ponderously slow, preferred mainly by old people who fret at the youth of today who are always in a hurry. Why drive 50 mph when you can cruise in one of these land yachts at 25 mph?


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## Guest

Itullian said:


> Spiritual my friend..........Spiritual.


The spirits of all those who passed waiting for the symphony to eventually end. Celibidache, granted, moved briskly when compared to glaciers, but empires have risen and fallen in less time than his Mozart Requiem.


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## Itullian

Better than a Ferrari where you see nothing as it superficially passes too quickly. :lol:


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## Guest

Itullian said:


> Fads pass.
> We'll see who lasts my friend.............


50 years from now people will be talking about their classic Gardiner and Hogwood recordings like you are now talking of your Klemperer recordings. And by then there will be yet some new way of interpreting Beethoven, and the old ones will complain they just don't measure up to the old great masters like Gardiner, while the younger listeners will complain that the older listeners are just stuck in the past. All this has happened before, and will happen again.


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## Itullian

DrMike said:


> 50 years from now people will be talking about their classic Gardiner and Hogwood recordings like you are now talking of your Klemperer recordings. And by then there will be yet some new way of interpreting Beethoven, and the old ones will complain they just don't measure up to the old great masters like Gardiner, while the younger listeners will complain that the older listeners are just stuck in the past. All this has happened before, and will happen again.


We shall see.
I doubt it.:tiphat:


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## Itullian

Take that..........:lol:

Yessssss


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## Marschallin Blair

dgee said:


> Some people will never get over the mid-century mush machine exemplified by Klemperer, Celibidache and others! I guess it has the strong pull of nostalgia, comfort and class (connotations of plush drawing room furniture) that just appeals to some as a "stamp of quality". Maybe that's nice in Bruckner (maybe!) but in Beethoven??
> 
> However, I think the preference for music to to sound more alive is winning out in winning out in concert halls and recording deals around the world


I don't see what class has to do with music, but I for one am not going to abjure plush drawing rooms for the more leaden company of Klemperer _or_ Celibadache.


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## Guest

Itullian said:


> Better than a Ferrari where you see nothing as it superficially passes too quickly. :lol:


Yes, but a Ferrari conjures up images of a young, vibrant Beethoven, crafting music with power that awed audiences and made them stand up and pay attention. This as opposed to an old Beethoven, sitting on his front porch yelling at the cars to slow down, slowly walking to his mailbox with a cane to fetch the mail.


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## DiesIraeCX

DrMike said:


> Celibidache, granted, moved briskly when compared to glaciers, but empires have risen and fallen in less time than his Mozart Requiem.


:lol: :lol: ain't it the truth!


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## Guest

Itullian said:


> Take that..........:lol:
> 
> Yessssss


14 CDs - so what, do you get one movement per composer there, given Celibidache's tempos? :devil:


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## Itullian

DrMike said:


> 14 CDs - so what, do you get one movement per composer there, given Celibidache's tempos? :devil:


:lol:
As opposed to 3 cds for the Gardiner trip to Munchkin land.
the lollipop guild:lol:


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## Guest

Itullian said:


> :lol:
> As opposed to 3 cds for the Gardiner trip to Munchkin land.
> the lollipop guild:lol:


Well, unlike Celibidache, Gardiner didn't believe that recording the Beethoven symphony cycle should take a lifetime.


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## KenOC

Itullian said:


> Better than a Ferrari where you see nothing as it superficially passes too quickly. :lol:


Ah yes, those "new musicians", especially conductors. No time to waste, places to go, people to see. Either they're double-parked or they have bad bladders. Not like the mighty bladders of old! :lol:


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## Itullian

DrMike said:


> Well, unlike Celibidache, Gardiner didn't believe that recording the Beethoven symphony cycle should take a lifetime.


I know, he had 3 other cycles to record that hour


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## Guest

Itullian said:


> I know, he had 3 other cycles to record that hour


Yes, and thank goodness for that. Because now we also have his recordings of Beethoven's piano concertos, Mozart's operas and piano concertos, Schumann's symphonies, Bach's cantatas, as well as some very good recordings of Bach's Mass in B Minor and St. John Passion.

Oh, and Gardiner understands that the average symphony shouldn't last longer than Wagner's Ring cycle.


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## Itullian

Make my day.......:lol:


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## realdealblues

I will make a remark because I do take some issues with tempo. 

If a movement is marked "Allegro", I do believe it should be played as such. Now what exactly is Allegro? Well some say it's somewhere between 120-160 beats per minute. Others that is just means "quickly" or "fast". Either way, it still means "uptempo" and even if you do go by the scale of 120-160 bpm, you've still got a lot of play between those two extremes so I'm not a stickler for a certain exact speed, but I expect it to be in that range and not played as an "Adagio" or a "Prestissimo" on the other end of the spectrum. Now sometimes rules can be broken (Glenn Gould had valid points and reasons for his interpretations) but in general I like things to follow the rough outline the composer left us.

My other feeling is that of an "internal tempo" or "flow" throughout the work. The best interpretations for me are the ones that have a natural flow from one movement to the next that gives a certain "internal tempo" to the entire work as a whole and is not based solely on each movement.

Now with Beethoven we also have the metronome markings and I can see why some may not feel that they are correct, but I can also see why Beethoven may have put them there. 

So first off I separate Beethoven into two categories. Those who are trying to follow his metronome markings and those that aren't. From there my preferences for recordings/interpretations generally look for the general ideas I listed above when it comes to tempo which is why I can find as much love in Klemperer & Bohm as I can Tocanini and Leibowitz.


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## hpowders

DiesIraeVIX said:


> But it so clearly doesn't, you're essentially telling people how they feel about music with faster tempos. I say I do hear depth and feeling in this music and you reply, "I disagree, speedy tempos takes away depth and feeling". As I've already stated, the nearly universally praised Carlos Kleiber recording of Beethoven's 5th and 7th, which has very fast tempi compared to Furtwangler or Bohm. Yet, I hear as much depth and emotion in Kleiber's as I do in any of the slower great recordings.
> 
> The difference in our opinions seems to be that I'm saying that tempi do not dictate depth/feeling. I say there can be profound amounts of feeling and depth in a faster tempo recording *as well as* a slower recording of the same work. Kleiber and Furtwangler are *both* phenomenal conductors, yet both were on opposite ends of the spectrum with regards to tempi.
> 
> In summary. A slow recording can be great. A fast recording can be great. You seem to be saying that only a slower recording can be great (i.e., have depth/feeling). Kleiber and Furtwangler didn't merely tell the orchestra to play fast or slow, there is so much more to it.


Sure.

Furtwängler had a couple of fantastic Brahm's First Symphony recordings that were deliberately paced and overwhelming.

On the other hand, Charles Munch recorded a performance of the same work with the Boston Symphony that went faster, but was no less overwhelming.

It all depends on the conductor, whether fast or slow and if he has the talent to convincingly pull it off.


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## Lord Lance

DiesIraeVIX said:


> I have problems recommending whole sets because it's immensely difficult for a single conductor to get all the symphonies correctly, yet if you are planning on supplementing your cycle with individual recordings, then I'm all for getting a cycle.
> 
> Ok, for modern, I'd go with Zinman/Tonhalle Zurich Orchestra. His "Eroica" symphony changed the way I heard it, it was like hearing it for the first time. You would think that a Funeral March would be hurt by faster tempos, but magically it just works fantastically. There is a clarity that I don't hear in Karajan 1963's "Eroica". In Zinman's Eroica, you feel that it is indeed a "March".
> Zinman offers fast tempos but with a modern orchestra and instruments, it's a wonderful end product. That being said, I don't particularly enjoy ANY of the HIP recordings of the 9th symphony. The 9th is a different animal to me. I'll take Karajan 1963 for my favorite 9th.
> 
> If you don't mind original instruments, I would also suggest Gardiner's 1994 cycle with the ORR and supplement it with his recording of symphonies 5 and 7 at live at Carnegie Hall. You can feel the energy in that recording.


If you're using Karajan's 63 as the best, you are doing it wrong. His 1984 recording of the Eroica remains unmatched. Maximum power with the greatest attention to detail and emotional drama at its peak. Zinman was alright. But compared to Karajan's '84, it will lose.



revdrdave said:


> Which one? Dresden? East/West?


Staatskapelle Berlin. East/West set isn't a good choice for a set. He proved how capable he of a conductor he was with his Staatskapelle Berlin set. It is one of the best sets to come out in this milennia.


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## Lord Lance

What would be your desert island box set out of these:
1. Zinman/TOR
2. Abbado/BPO
3. Mackerras/Scottish Chamber Orchestra
4. Immerseel/Anima Eterna
5. Chailly/Gew. Orch.
6. Barenboim/Dresden
7. Janson/BRSO
8. Haitink/LSO
9. Vanska/Minnesota Orchestra
10. Jaarvi
11. Harnoncourt/COE
12. Gardiner
13. Bruggen/Orchestra of 18th Century Orchestra
14. Hogwood/AAM


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## OperaGeek

Ludwig van Beethoven said:


> Dresden. East/West set isn't a good choice for a set. He proved how capable he of a conductor he was with his Dresden. It is one of the best sets to come out in this milennia.


Is there a Barenboim set with Staatskapelle Dresden?


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## Lord Lance

OperaGeek said:


> Is there a Barenboim set with Staatskapelle Dresden?


Corrected. I was under the impression there was only one Staatskapelle instead of two.


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## hpowders

Overall, I would go with Abbado/Berlin as the best modern set. There are older sets that are better however.


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## Lord Lance

hpowders said:


> Overall, I would go with Abbado/Berlin as the best modern set. There are older sets that are better however.


Abbado's set is my personal favorite from the twenty first century. There is Immerseel, Haitink, Zinman and Rattle [hah!]. But Abbado's interpretations are the ones which I will always come back to.


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## Markbridge

Have to go with Vänskä. I found his interpretations to be revelatory. Am anxious to get the completed piano concertos, once they're done, with Sudbin (his Tchaikovsky 1st was fresh and eye opening).


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## Cheyenne

For the Ninth: Herreweghe! Really, really good recording. For the others, I haven't yet found satisfactory modern recordings. I'll look into Vänskä and some of the other excellent recommendations here.


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## KenOC

An oldie-but-goodie 9th: Fricsay. Seriously, give this one a listen. The sound's fine!


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## Konsgaard

Ludwig van Beethoven said:


> If you're using Karajan's 63 as the best, you are doing it wrong. His 1984 recording of the Eroica remains unmatched. Maximum power with the greatest attention to detail and emotional drama at its peak. Zinman was alright. But compared to Karajan's '84, it will lose.
> 
> Staatskapelle Berlin. East/West set isn't a good choice for a set. He proved how capable he of a conductor he was with his Staatskapelle Berlin set. It is one of the best sets to come out in this milennia.


Agree. Indeed Karajan's digital Eroica is amazing and indeed Barenboim's Staatskapelle Berlin is one of the best sets to have appeared ever. And I say that owning a dozen of Beethoven symphony sets.


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## hpowders

I would have to say for excellent playing, fine interpretations and decent sound, it would be Claudio Abbado and the Berlin Philharmonic.
My only criticism with the set is I don't care for all repeats taken in Beethoven's Fifth Symphony.


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## realdealblues

hpowders said:


> I would have to say for excellent playing, fine interpretations and decent sound, it would be Claudio Abbado and the Berlin Philharmonic.
> My only criticism with the set is I don't care for all repeats taken in Beethoven's Fifth Symphony.


Just out of curiosity, I assume you are talking about the Live 2001 Recordings with the Re-Edited 9th from his 2000 studio cycle?


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## Haydn man

hpowders said:


> I would have to say for excellent playing, fine interpretations and decent sound, it would be Claudio Abbado and the Berlin Philharmonic.
> My only criticism with the set is I don't care for all repeats taken in Beethoven's Fifth Symphony.


I can agree with this as I have this cycle and am listening to the 3rd at present


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## Karafan

What about Norrington in Stuttgart for those diabetics among you? I never much rated him, but this cycle is definitely one to get to know.









K.


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## hpowders

realdealblues said:


> Just out of curiosity, I assume you are talking about the Live 2001 Recordings with the Re-Edited 9th from his 2000 studio cycle?


No.I got stuck with the set he apologized for!! :lol:

I have so many Beethoven symphony sets, I wasn't about to buy another one. I find it to be perfectly fine anyway, except for him taking the repeats in Symphony 5, movement 3. That I don't need!


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## realdealblues

hpowders said:


> No.I got stuck with the set he apologized for!! :lol:
> 
> I have so many Beethoven symphony sets, I wasn't about to buy another one. I find it to be perfectly fine anyway, except for him taking the repeats in Symphony 5, movement 3. That I don't need!


I had all 3 of Abbado's Beethoven Cycles. The last one was definitely his best effort. I really wanted to like the one you have, but honestly just wasn't all that blown away with it. It was better than his first cycle with the Vienna Philharmonic which was exceptionally boring, but I do think his final cycle was a vast improvement.

I think the best from that 1st cycle with Berlin that you have was the Pastoral. The Eroica was also decent, but much of the rest I just found kind of bland. There are several spots where the woodwinds should be ringing through but are just buried in the mix. The 9th was also a let down for me. During the the 2nd movement it's all timpani and no strings and the horns sound like they're a mile away.

His final cycle seemed like it had more pep and fire to it. Especially comparing the 5th's from those cycles. The one from his final set has much more impact. Maybe it's because it was live?

In the end I sold all 3 Abbado cycles earlier this year when I went through the great Beethoven cycle culling, but for someone really keen on Abbado's interpretation of Beethoven or a modern recording, I could see recommending getting his final cycle and supplementing it with his 9th Symphony recording on Sony (which still remains Abbado's best 9th).


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## hpowders

^^^I'm sure it was, but I'm spending my money now on stuff I don't have. I have so many Beethoven Symphony sets.


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## Blake

I think I have about 6 or 7 sets of symphony cycles. I went through a pretty obsessive Beethoven stage.


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## SixFootScowl

I have three and 2/3 cycles and figure to stop at this point. The 2/3 is Furtwangler WWII recordings minus 1,2, and 8 (for some reason).


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## SixFootScowl

Florestan said:


> I have three and 2/3 cycles and figure to stop at this point. The 2/3 is Furtwangler WWII recordings minus 1,2, and 8 (for some reason).


A lot can happen in 1.5 months. Now I have complete cycles in Wand, Walter, Szell, Leibowitz, and Hannover Band. Besides the Furtwangler 2/3 cycle I just got 2/3 of a cycle conducted by Fricsay and that is topping my list. So far I have Fricsay's 1, 3, 5, 7, 8, and 9. If only he had 2, 4, and 6 available. I tried to get Immerseel's cycle for $9 on ebay but the deal fell through when the wrong item was sent and it became apparent that the correct item either is not available or not going to be provided (seller never said).


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## SixFootScowl

DiesIraeVIX said:


> It's nice to meet another collecter of 9th recordings! I have 12 recordings and same with me, there are a couple I haven't quite got to, like Szell's and Gardiner's.
> I'll have to check out that 9th in Japan video, a 10,000 voice choir definitely sounds intriguing.


Szell's Ninth is very good. I would put it right after Fricsay which is the top of my list.


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## Saggy Shelves

DiesIraeVIX said:


> It's nice to meet another collecter of 9th recordings! I have 12 recordings and same with me, there are a couple I haven't quite got to, like Szell's and Gardiner's.
> I'll have to check out that 9th in Japan video, a 10,000 voice choir definitely sounds intriguing.


 I spent a winter in a cabin on a river in Northern WA state and had only the Ormandy/Philadelphia 9th for company. (Talk about a desert island...) I have never heard another version that captures the soul of this music nearly as well. The audio is only good, not great, but the vocals are awesome and the final movement builds in intensity that is wonderful. Ormandy is a somewhat spotty choice generally, probably due in part to less than innovative recordists, but this one hits home. I see that it appears to be not available- a shame if true. The problem with a lot of modern high tech digital recordings for me is that one tends to get overwhelmed by the lushness of the individual instruments- as if one actually heard them with that much separation in a concert hall. While this may work for Sibelius or Mahler I prefer Beethoven a little more streamlined, such as the Hogwood cycle, tough he's only good on some of the symphonies.


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## SixFootScowl

Saggy Shelves said:


> I spent a winter in a cabin on a river in Northern WA state and had only the Ormandy/Philadelphia 9th for company. (Talk about a desert island...) I have never heard another version that captures the soul of this music nearly as well.


And of my 40+ Ninths, no Ormandy. A shame. I have about 7 Missa Solemnis and the one I like the very most is Ormandy's!


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## hpowders

Even though I have some reservations, just reveling in the fantastic virtuosity exhibited by the Gewandhaus Orchestra under Riccardo Chailly is an incredible experience that shouldn't be missed.

Those horns! Those winds! That kettledrum in the second movement of the Beethoven Ninth!

WOW!!


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## Lord Lance

Blake said:


> I think I have about 6 or 7 sets of symphony cycles. I went through a pretty obsessive Beethoven stage.


Bah~ Six or seven? You ain't obsessing _enough. _

After you're done with ten cycles worth of Beethoven [meaning 7 from some set, 6 from live, etc.] and still have eight pending with a thirst for more, *then *you know...

Oh my....

What have I become?


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## SixFootScowl

Lord Lance said:


> Bah~ Six or seven? You ain't obsessing _enough. _
> 
> After you're done with ten cycles worth of Beethoven [meaning 7 from some set, 6 from live, etc.] and still have eight pending with a thirst for more, *then *you know...
> 
> Oh my....
> 
> What have I become?


How is this for obsession: I have somewhere around 40 Beethoven Ninths on CD. I got a little bit carried away for a while.

EDIT: Whoops, didn't see my Dec 2014 post on same Ninth obsession. Oh well, it bears repeating.


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## hpowders

I admire the incredible playing of the Gewandhaus under Chailly, but the performances leave me cold.

Gunter Wand with a second rate orchestra achieves levels of communication that Chailly does not.

Yet, I will still listen to the Chailly to revel in the incredible virtuosity of the playing.

I'm not sure the Pastoral's first movement stroll was intended to be taken wearing New Balance running shoes!


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## PeterF

I listen to Beethoven symphonies most often by earlier conductors such as Jochum, Walter, Monteux, Szell, and Bernstein.

Have heard a few HIP more recent recordings, but they were not my cup of tea.

The one modern version I do very much like is by Vanska.


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## Steatopygous

Florestan said:


> How is this for obsession: I have somewhere around 40 Beethoven Ninths on CD. I got a little bit carried away for a while.
> 
> EDIT: Whoops, didn't see my Dec 2014 post on same Ninth obsession. Oh well, it bears repeating.


I've only got 32. Trouble is, I hardly remember many of them. And some have come in big sets and probably never been listened to.


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## SixFootScowl

Steatopygous said:


> I've only got 32. Trouble is, I hardly remember many of them. And some have come in big sets and probably never been listened to.


 I have a few I have not listened to. The ninth is low on my radar now and only gets listened to during my occasional excursions through all nine Beethoven symphonies. I got into a mode (rut?) of only listening to Beethoven's symphonies in whole cycles.


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## Lord Lance

Florestan said:


> How is this for obsession: I have somewhere around 40 Beethoven Ninths on CD. I got a little bit carried away for a while.
> 
> EDIT: Whoops, didn't see my Dec 2014 post on same Ninth obsession. Oh well, it bears repeating.


Hey, two/two-and-a-half years of listening vs decades of listening. My pace is frenetic. When I die perhaps I will become a Beethoven Ninth scholar [not in the musical sense, unfortunately].


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## SixFootScowl

Declined said:


> Anyone ever hear the Zinman set? How is it?


Just finished listening through my newly acquired Zinman Beethoven symphony cycle and like it very much. Can't say how it rates against others but it seems like a very good cycle to have if one is into multiple cycles and does not have much HIP yet.


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## Manxfeeder

[Post deleted. I asked a stupid question. Carry on.]


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## SixFootScowl

Manxfeeder said:


> [Post deleted. I asked a stupid question. Carry on.]


Now we'll never know. I am writhing with curiosity.


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## TwoFlutesOneTrumpet

Florestan said:


> Just finished listening through my newly acquired Zinman Beethoven symphony cycle and like it very much. Can't say how it rates against others but it seems like a very good cycle to have if one is into multiple cycles and does not have much HIP yet.


I love it too. It's very different from most other performances I own and that is why I treasure it. It is exceptionally clear highlighting parts, especially in the winds and brass, that are lost in the overall sound in other recordings. Strings are lighter than usual, which is actually not a problem for me. Speeds are generally very fast but work well.


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## Oldhoosierdude

I would have to say that Mackerras 2006 cycle gets the edge just barely over Abbado's 2000 cycle. At least for me.

I like Immerseel for it's playing and the sound quality of the recording is near perfect, but it comes in third to the other two.

The others mentioned in this thread were not my thing necessarily, although still quite good.


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## Johnnie Burgess

The most modern I have is Zinman's from late 1990's.


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## ArgumentativeOldGit

The 2006 Mackerras cycle, recorded live at the Edinburgh Festival (with Scottish Chamber Orchestra, and the Philharmonia for the 9th) for me too. I was at some of these concerts, and they were electrifying. It was like hearing them for the first time.


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## Pugg

I am sticking with Bernard Haitink and the Royal Concertgebouw orchestra, from the 1985 ( approximately )


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## Merl

I usually have a few complete cycles on the go at the same time. So on the car USB I have Chailly, Kubelik, Solti,Tremblay and Immerseel at the moment. Depends what kind of Beethoven I wanna hear.


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## Merl

There's much to admire in most of the more modern Beethoven cycles, Tbf.

For me the Mackerras and Gardiner cycles are the most consistently excellent full sets but I prefer individual performances by others. Pletnev is very good as is Haitink/LSO (Haitink's 9th is a stormer). Chailly is electrifying but he takes 5&6 a bit too quickly. Tremblay is crisp and very good. Jarvi is superb but let down by a poor 9th and Vanska is very good but suffers from a disappointing Eroica. Wand and Barenboim are good solid sets and I like Immerseel's take on things. Only the Barenboim and his Beethoven for All is substandard. Ive probably missed a few but I'll address those when I get home from work.


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## Merl

Sorry for a 3rd post but I'm adding a few others I missed out.

Of the 2 Rattle cycles the new one is definitely the best (although you cant say either is less than good). The new set has garnered mixed reviews but I rate it highly. Technically superb and he takes some chances (he really goes for it in the odd numbers). I've not heard Jansons yet (next on the list) and have only heard a few of Abbado's BPO recordings and they sound very good too. I didn't like the Zinman set much, when I bought it, but repeated playing reaps dividends and it's a really interesting set that's more deserving of my time. I have Thielemann and Bruggen but need to listen to the whole set yet. Again both sound very good. I've yet to hear Herreweghe yet but Krivine's set is really interesting and needs further exploration. Gielen and Harnoncourt's cycles are consistent and superbly played but Nagano is patchy (and a bit weird) and Fedoseev is just utter ***** (slow, badly-played, boring). For a cheap-as-chips budget Beethoven you cant go wrong with Edlinger and Halasz's cycle. You can pick the whole late 80s box up for less than £3 and most symphonies are very well played and judged and the 9th is very, very good indeed.

What I will say is that, apart from a few awful ones, my opinions on the good and better ones are not static. I've fallen in love with some and outta love with others over recent years. I'm sure I will continue to do so.


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## Judith

Merl said:


> Sorry for a 3rd post but I'm adding a few others I missed out.
> 
> Of the 2 Rattle cycles the new one is definitely the best (although you cant say either is less than good). The new set has garnered mixed reviews but I rate it highly. Technically superb and he takes some chances (he really goes for it in the odd numbers). I've not heard Jansons yet (next on the list) and have only heard a few of Abbado's BPO recordings and they sound very good too. I didn't like the Zinman set much, when I bought it, but repeated playing reaps dividends and it's a really interesting set that's more deserving of my time. I have Thielemann and Bruggen but need to listen to the whole set yet. Again both sound very good. I've yet to hear Herreweghe yet but Krivine's set is really interesting and needs further exploration. Gielen and Harnoncourt's cycles are consistent and superbly played but Nagano is patchy (and a bit weird) and Fedoseev is just utter ***** (slow, badly-played, boring). For a cheap-as-chips budget Beethoven you cant go wrong with Edlinger and Halasz's cycle. You can pick the whole late 80s box up for less than £3 and most symphonies are very well played and judged and the 9th is very, very good indeed.
> 
> What I will say is that, apart from a few awful ones, my opinions on the good and better ones are not static. I've fallen in love with some and outta love with others over recent years. I'm sure I will continue to do so.


I have just bought the latest Simon Rattle one. Find his performances very powerful!


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