# Somebody help me understand 20th Century compostions



## RonP (Aug 31, 2012)

First off, i'm a big fan of the Baroque and Classical periods and I'm just starting to expand into the Romantic period a bit more. But for some reason, I just cannot grasp 20th Century work. I've tried to listen to various works - Barber, Britten, Shostakovich, Prokofiev, you name it. I can take Prokofiev in small doses, especially his Classical Symphony, which harkens back to Haydn. But the majority of the other work I find too "dissonant" for lack of a better term. Or maybe I don't see the 'lyricism" of the Classical period. It could be that I don't understand what's going on and so I'm not picking up certain stylistic cues. So without starting a flame war, can someone knowledgeable help me out?


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## jani (Jun 15, 2012)

Shock treatment will work.


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## Renaissance (Jul 10, 2012)

:lol:

If 20th century music doesn't tell you more, well...that's it. You don't have to love everything is labelled as "classical music". If you say that you tried and failed, there is nothing to worry about. Come back later, maybe you will find your way through it, maybe not. I don't think "understanding" the technical aspects of music would change the way you perceive it. Music is certainly made up from rules, but not any rule can make music.


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## Andolink (Oct 29, 2012)

It's perfectly OK to not like certain styles of music if you just don't perceive much or anything of value in them. I'm curious as to why you think you need help with 20th Century "dissonant" music? Many people do just fine sticking to the music they love and bypassing music that's unpleasant or weird. If you've done a fair amount of exploring of the major 20th Century composers and you're not finding music to stimulate your passions why persist?


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## DrKilroy (Sep 29, 2012)

What about some Ravel or Vaughan Williams? Especially the latter can be very lyrical. 

Best regards, Dr


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## science (Oct 14, 2010)

Yeah, I wouldn't try to force it. It seems like some people try to force and wind up feeling resentful. 

Anyway, there's plenty of fairly conservative 20th century music that ought to be relatively easier to approach. I'll be back with some suggestions momentarily....


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## RonP (Aug 31, 2012)

I'm trying to understand what the guiding forces of the composers of that era were and how the music evolved. Sometimes, the "backstory" helps me understand. Case in point, Prokofiev's Classical Symphony. I liked it when I first heard it and then really appreciated it when I understood that it was a nod to Haydn. It made perfect sense since I knw what "clues" to look for.

Another example - Gorecki's Third Symphony. If I heard it on its own, I'd hear the dark tones. But understanding the history behind the piece made me appreciate the haunting tones even more.


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## Renaissance (Jul 10, 2012)

RonP said:


> Another example - Gorecki's Third Symphony. If I heard it on its own, I'd hear the dark tones. But understanding the history behind the piece made me appreciate the haunting tones even more.


Music did not evolve, just merely changed. I really don't think that dissonant & random stuff coming after 1945 might convince you to appreciate it more, as long as is full with obsessions about WWII. I mean, it doesn't sound like a nice "backstory" for raising your appreciation on it.


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## DrKilroy (Sep 29, 2012)

Not all 20th century music is atonal and dissonant, especially from the first half. Apart from Ravel and Vaughan Williams, you could also try Sibelius, Satie, Debussy, Gershwin, Kapustin. When it comes to more modern sounding music, but not very hard to listen to, Messiaen's early works, Alain and prehaps some Dutilleux and Hindemith could work.

Best regards, Dr


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## RonP (Aug 31, 2012)

DrKilroy said:


> Not all 20th century music is atonal and dissonant, especially from the first half. Apart from Ravel and Vaughan Williams, you could also try Sibelius, Satie, Debussy, Gershwin, Kapustin. When it comes to more modern sounding music, but not very hard to listen to, Messiaen's early works, Alain and prehaps some Dutilleux and Hindemith could work.
> 
> Best regards, Dr


Thanks for those pointers. I'll give some of them a try.

Please understand that I really have little formal music training outside of what I get in my instrument lessons and a lot of my background is in rock music. I've listened to classical off and on for most of my adult life, but never really made an attempt to delve into the details to further understand it. I'm paying a lot of catch-up and there will be some dumb questions coming from me as I learn.


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## jani (Jun 15, 2012)

RonP said:


> Thanks for those pointers. I'll give some of them a try.
> 
> Please understand that I really have little formal music training outside of what I get in my instrument lessons and a lot of my background is in rock music. I've listened to classical off and on for most of my adult life, but never really made an attempt to delve into the details to further understand it. I'm paying a lot of catch-up and there will be some dumb questions coming from me as I learn.


Here try this its in the style of Frank Martins


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## DrKilroy (Sep 29, 2012)

You might also like American minimalists: Glass and Reich, also John Adams, though he is not strictly minimalist. They are certainly worth trying!

Best regards, Dr


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## Guest (Nov 20, 2012)

Much like counterpoint was not a major force in most Classical era pieces, lyricism is not in the forefront of most 20th century music. Things change.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

RonP said:


> First off, i'm a big fan of the Baroque and Classical periods and I'm just starting to expand into the Romantic period a bit more. But for some reason, I just cannot grasp 20th Century work. I've tried to listen to various works - Barber, Britten, Shostakovich, Prokofiev, you name it. I can take Prokofiev in small doses, especially his Classical Symphony, which harkens back to Haydn. But the majority of the other work I find too "dissonant" for lack of a better term. Or maybe I don't see the 'lyricism" of the Classical period. It could be that I don't understand what's going on and so I'm not picking up certain stylistic cues. So without starting a flame war, can someone knowledgeable help me out?


Thread title: "Somebody help me understand 20th Century *compost*ions"

*Compost?* Are you trying to start a flame war? Oh, well, compost should burn well. :lol:

I think I'll refrain from advising you until you muddle your way through the Romantic period; or perhaps you could consider going backwards, into the middle ages and Gregorian chant. It gets progressively simpler and easier to grasp as you approach 1 A.D; no dissonance, no consonance, just one note! :lol:


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## science (Oct 14, 2010)

Most of these are conservative works, about as accessible as any romantic works. A few a a bit more progressive, and a few were radical in their time (like The Rite of Spring) but are so popular even with conservative listeners that I guess they must be fairly accessible. It tapers off toward the end, reflecting both my own lack of knowledge and (I think) an increasing degree of difficulty for many listeners (all dates are approximate):

Enescu: Romanian Rhapsodies (1901)
*Rachmaninoff: Piano Concerto #2 (1901) 
Mahler: Symphony #5 (1902)
Ravel: String Quartet (1903)*
Scriabin: Symphony #3 (1904)
*Debussy: La Mer (1905)*
Ravel: Introduction and Allegro (1903)
Glazunov: Violin Concerto (1904)
Debussy: Children's Corner (1908)
Elgar: Symphony #1 (1908)
Janáček: On an Overgrown Path (1908)
Rachmaninoff: Isle of the Dead (1908)
*Rachmaninoff: Symphony #2 (1908)
Ravel: Gaspard de la nuit (1908)*
Scriabin: The Poem of Ecstasy (1908)
*Albéniz: Iberia (1909)
Mahler: Das Lied von der Erde (1909)
Rachmaninoff: Piano Concerto #3 (1909)* 
Vaughan Williams: A Sea Symphony (1909)
Elgar: Violin Concerto (1910)
Fauré: La chanson d'Ève (1910)
*Mahler: Symphony #9 (1910)*
Scriabin: Prometheus: The Poem of Fire (1910)
Vaughan Williams: Fantasia on a Theme by Thomas Tallis (1910)
Elgar: Symphony #2 (1911)
Granados: Goyescas (1911)
Strauss: Der Rosenkavalier (1911)
Debussy: Images pour orchestre (1912)
Delius: On Hearing the First Cuckoo in Spring (1912)
Ravel: Daphnis et Chloé (1912)
*Stravinsky: The Rite of Spring (1913)*
Vaughan Williams: A London Symphony (1913)
*Debussy: Préludes, Books 1 & 2 (1909-1913)*
Ives: New England Holidays (1913)
Rachmaninoff: The Bells (1913)
Scriabin: Piano Sonata #9 (1913)
Dohnányi: Variations on a Nursery Tune (1914)
Ives: Three Places in New England (1914)
*Vaughan Williams: The Lark Ascending (1914)*
Debussy: Cello Sonata (1915)
*Falla: Nights in the Gardens of Spain (1915)*
Kodály: Sonata for Solo Cello (1915)
*Rachmaninoff: Vespers (All-Night Vigil) (1915)
Strauss: An Alpine Symphony (1915)
Holst: The Planets (1916)*
Debussy: Violin Sonata (1917)
Bax: Tintagel (1919)
*Elgar: Cello Concerto (1919)*
Janáček: The Diary of One Who Disappeared (1919)
Ives: Concord Sonata (1920)
Milhaud: Le boeuf sur le toit (1920)
*Fauré: Piano Quintet #2 (1921)*
Vaughan Williams: A Pastoral Symphony (1921)
*Janáček: String Quartet #1 (1923)
Milhaud: La création du monde (1923)
Shostakovich: Piano Trio #1 (1923)
Gershwin: Rhapsody in Blue (1924)*
Shostakovich: Symphony #1 (1925)
Vaughan Williams: Flos Campi (1925)
*Enescu: Violin Sonata #3 (1926)
Szymanowski: Stabat Mater (1926)
Kodály: Háry János (1926) and the Suite (1927)
Janáček: String Quartet #2 (1928)*
Poulenc: Concert champêtre (1928)
Ravel: Bolero (1928)
*Respighi: Roman Trilogy (Roman Festivals completed in 1928)
Canteloube: Chants d'Auvergne (1930)*
Stravinsky: A Symphony of Psalms (1930)
Enescu: Oedipe (1931)
Grofé: Grand Canyon Suite (1931)
Ravel: Piano Concerto (1931)
Walton: Belshazzar's Feast (1931)
Bartók: Duos for 2 Violins (1932)
Poulenc: Concerto for 2 Pianos (1932)
*Rachmaninoff: Rhapsody on a Theme of Paganini (1934)
Dohnányi: Sextet (1935)
Prokofiev: Romeo & Juliet (1935)*
Prokofiev: Violin Concerto #2 (1935)
Walton: Symphony #1 (1935)
Bartók: Music for Strings, Percussion and Celeste (1936)
Orff: Carmina Burana (1936)
Barber: Adagio for Strings (1937)
Revueltas: Sensemayá (1937)
Shostakovich: Symphony #5 (1937)
Bartók: Violin Concerto #2 (1938)
Poulenc: Organ Concerto (1938)
*Prokofiev: Alexander Nevsky (1938)
Rodrigo: Concierto de Aranjuez (1939)*
Xian: Yellow River Cantata (1939)
Barber: Violin Concerto (1940)
*Kabelevksy: The Comedians Suite (1940)
Rachmaninoff: Symphonic Dances (1940)
Shostakovich: Piano Quintet (1940)
Messiaen: Quartet for the End of Time (1941)*
Bernstein: Symphony #1 Jeremiah (1942)
Britten: A Ceremony of Carols (1942) 
Copland: Fanfare for the Common Man (1942)
*Khachaturian: Gayane (1942)*
Medtner: Piano Concerto #3 (1943)
Vaughan Williams: Symphony #5 (1943)
*Copland: Appalachian Spring (1944)
Bartók: Concerto for Orchestra (1945)*
Korngold: Violin Concerto (1945)
Myaskovsky: Cello Concerto (1945)
Strauss: Metamorphosen (1945)
Strauss: Oboe Concerto (1945)
Copland: Symphony #3 (1946)
*Honegger: Symphony #3 (1946)
Barber: Knoxville: Summer of 1915 (1947)
Duruflé: Requiem (1947)
Cage: Sonatas and Interludes for Prepared Piano (1948)
Shostakovich: Violin Concerto #1 (1948)*
Bernstein: Symphony #2 Age of Anxiety (1949)
*Strauss: Four Last Songs (1950)
Shostakovich: 24 Preludes and Fugues (1951)*
Vaughan Williams: Sinfonia antartica (1952)
Shostakovich: Symphony #10 (1953)
Alwyn: Lyra Angelica (1954)
*Khachaturian: Spartacus (1954)*
Hovhaness: Mysterious Mountain (1955)
*Shostakovich: String Quartet #8 (1960)*
Arnold: Symphony #5 (1961)
Britten: War Requiem (1961)
Barber: Piano Concerto (1962)
Shostakovich: Symphony #13 (1962)
Bernstein: Symphony #3 Kaddish (1963)
*Ligeti: Lux Aeterna (1966)
Penderecki: St. Luke's Passion (1966)
Shostakovich: Cello Concerto #1 (1969)*
Hovhaness: And God Created Great Whales (1970)
Arnold: Symphony #7 (1974)
*Rzewski: The People United Will Never Be Defeated (1975)
Górecki: Symphony #3 (1976)
Reich: Music for 18 Musicians (1976)*
Adams: Harmonielehre (1985)
*Takemitsu: From Me Flows What You Call Time (1990)*
Whitacre: Cloudburst (1992)
Tan Dun: Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon (2000)


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## science (Oct 14, 2010)

I forgot Sibelius... 

I'm sure there's more that I forgot!


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## perduto (Aug 28, 2012)

Looking for "dissonant lyricism" with a story behind it? Perhaps Alban Berg's Violin Concerto will do the trick for you. 
If you like it, Luigi Dallapiccola could be a next step. He's the most lyrical avant-gardist that I know.


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## Arsakes (Feb 20, 2012)

Most of the 20th century music is more extreme than Bartok Piano Concerto No.1. So If you like this you can ask for similar works. If not we can help you find milder works.


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## BurningDesire (Jul 15, 2012)

RonP said:


> First off, i'm a big fan of the Baroque and Classical periods and I'm just starting to expand into the Romantic period a bit more. But for some reason, I just cannot grasp 20th Century work. I've tried to listen to various works - Barber, Britten, Shostakovich, Prokofiev, you name it. I can take Prokofiev in small doses, especially his Classical Symphony, which harkens back to Haydn. But the majority of the other work I find too "dissonant" for lack of a better term. Or maybe I don't see the 'lyricism" of the Classical period. It could be that I don't understand what's going on and so I'm not picking up certain stylistic cues. So without starting a flame war, can someone knowledgeable help me out?


Alot of the music of the 20th Century can be very challenging on first listen for the uninitiated. My best advice would be to listen to a variety of music that explores these more dissonant idioms in different ways, and it may especially help to listen to music that combines some of the new aesthetics with aesthetic ideas from the previous periods (such as Prokofiev's first symphony as you have already heard). I can make many recommendations for pieces to listen to if you wish. It really all comes down to listening and thinking, and growing to understand these new sounds and what they can tell you. There is alot of intense beauty in much of the music of the 20th Century, and there is a ton of variety, I'm sure we can expand your horizons 

I also must ask, what do you think of the Romantic period/early Modern stuff? Stuff like Beethoven, Chopin, Tchaikovsky, Brahms, Mussorgsky, Adam, Borodin, Berlioz, Mendelssohn, Wagner, Mahler, Dvorak, Debussy, Satie, Ravel?


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## RonP (Aug 31, 2012)

I'm delving more into the Romantic period lately. Beethoven, Tchiakovsky and mendelssohn are favorites of mine from that period and I'm trying to get more exposure to Brahms, Dvorak Schumann and Schubert. I'm not too familiar with the others on your list yet.


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## science (Oct 14, 2010)

RonP said:


> I'm delving more into the Romantic period lately. Beethoven, Tchiakovsky and mendelssohn are favorites of mine from that period and I'm trying to get more exposure to Brahms, Dvorak Schumann and Schubert. I'm not too familiar with the others on your list yet.


You've got so much really, really great music to explore - don't worry if something doesn't grab you now. So much of it is going to grab you that there'll be more than enough.

I've been at this a while now and I still don't enjoy Bruckner, Strauss, or Mahler the way I'm supposed to - and I'm pretty easy to please. We all have blind spots like that.


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## Vaneyes (May 11, 2010)

Keep clam, your brain will tell you when it's time to move on.


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## Andolink (Oct 29, 2012)

Try the symphonies and tone poems of Arnold Bax and the symphonies of Edmund Rubbra. Bax is late romantic and Rubbra is what I would call Post-Romantic.


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## clavichorder (May 2, 2011)

If you choose to go down that path, you could be at a stage in your listening where your mind will be receptive to it little by little. Here is my advice based on a successful experience in getting into 20th century music despite a previously classical and baroque centered listening experience.

Persist on a variety of 20th century works, some better known, some more obscure. You might want to develop your grounding in the early modern/post romantic territory, and think about finding carefully about more carefully scouting out that fuzzy boundary where things get a little too weird for you. You can try your best to "make sense of it" if it so pleases you. Debussy, Stravinsky, Strauss, Mahler, Ravel, Rachmaninoff, and even more experimental works by romantic composers both in style and time period(going back as far as Berlioz, Wagner, and including Liszt, Bruckner, Brahms, Mussorsky, Rimsky Korsakov, ect.)

All the same, throw some open minded scouts ahead into the wildernesses of Bartok, Shostakovich, or even wilder territory like Webern or Dutilleux. Check out the most well known contemporary names under the classical label as well. 

There also might be some educational fun in looking for treasure, investigating early 20th names that aren't quite as main stream like Martinu, Honegger, Poulenc, W. Schuman, ect. The act of seeking it out and learning to recognize these composers might help you develop a personalized taste for 20th century music, where you feel you don't have to get it like another person seems to, but you can approach and form your more original opinion.

If progress is not made all at once despite a lot of persistence, lay off it a little and try it again in a while. It has happened this way with me for a lot of composers and compositions, modern or not.

Science's list also does a great job at picking pieces that include more recognizable old fashioned things in a modernist context. It can help to look at it this way if the modern piece in question has the older elements that you like the most.


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## neoshredder (Nov 7, 2011)

Listen to Schnittke. He is influenced by the Baroque and Classical. Quite dissonant but interesting at the same time. And Faure and Sibelius are obvious choices. Also Debussy, Ravel, Poulenc, Respighi, Janacek, and Vaughan Williams.


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## samurai (Apr 22, 2011)

science said:


> I forgot Sibelius...
> 
> I'm sure there's more that I forgot!


How about some love for Carl Nielsen?


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