# What is the worst Beethoven symphony cycle?



## Johnnie Burgess

I have visited this site for years and seen many threads on great Beethoven symphony cycles. I want to know what is the worst?


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## isorhythm

This'll be hard because people don't usually listen to a whole cycle if they hate what they hear.

That said, I predict any responses will be divided between Roger Norrington (probably deservedly IMO), and Karajan's various cycles other than the 1963 one, which attract irrational levels of hate.


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## Johnnie Burgess

Maximanno Cobra might be mentioned.


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## ArtMusic

Roger Norrington's cycle was very refreshing. Lean and to the point. I like it. It is well regarded.

I might say Otto Klemperer's version was the version that is now rarely, if at all, followed these days in concert halls. Over blown aesthetics and too much of a perfected sound, which the likes of Karajan followed. 

Just my opinion, nothing more, nothing less.


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## GreenMamba

Cobra is horrible, although his Beethoven is no worse than his Mozart (25 minute slow movements for 40 and 41!) or Schubert. 

Beyond that, practically everything will start an argument.


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## Itullian

^A pupil of Feldman, I think. :lol:


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## manyene

The Norrington cycle has its high points (8th Symphony), and its low (the rushed slow movement to the Choral, a travesty), but I would not call it the worst cycle .


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## Mandryka

Which Norrington cycle are you people talking about? I think the SWR is outstanding, with really revealing balances.


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## GioCar

Not the worst cycle, but the most disappointing among the recent ones is the Barenboim with the West-Eastern Divan Orchestra, particularly if compared to his Staatskapelle Berlin cycle.
I feel a bit uncomfortable when saying that, since I truly believe in the nobleness of this project, but musically speaking there's an abyss between the two cycles, imo. Barenboim has never been so "heavy"...


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## Scififan

For me the one that I have found the least inspired is that of Joseph Krips. It struck me as being terribly bland--as if Krips was doing a play-through with no enthusiasm. Part of the problem was that I heard it on an old mono recording and the sound was dull and lacked dynamic range.
Has anyone heard it on a remastered disc?


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## superhorn

I've been listening to the West-East Divan /Barenboim Beethoven cycle, which I just borrowed on library interloan , and I actually rather like it . It's not unduly heavy , and it's refreshing after all those Beethoven lite HIP /politically correct performances which have almost become de rigeur in recent years .
Too many of these have merely thrown the proverbial baby out with the bath water .


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## scratchgolf

The worst _________ cycle for me is usually Rattle conducting ___________. Why should Beethoven be any different? And if Beethoven's 8th is the highlight of any cycle, count me out.


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## Triplets

Scififan said:


> For me the one that I have found the least inspired is that of Joseph Krips. It struck me as being terribly bland--as if Krips was doing a play-through with no enthusiasm. Part of the problem was that I heard it on an old mono recording and the sound was dull and lacked dynamic range.
> Has anyone heard it on a remastered disc?


Krips excels in the "lesser symphonies"--1,2,4,8; and his 6th is decent.


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## Triplets

It may not be the worst, but Karajan's last cycle was the most unnecessary, degenerating into self-caricature.
When Tower Music went bust, I picked up the Barenboim-Berlin Staatkapelle cycle on a set of DVD-Audios. I didn't find much that was memorable about it.


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## SONNET CLV

The problem with Beethoven is, his symphonies are so well written that they can sound decent even when played by hack amateur orchestras. Or Karajan (with the exception of the 1963 cycle).


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## Vaneyes

Worst? Any with a slowpoke conductor. Though, there can be too fast. I'm a Scherchen fan (such as LvB 8), but his Eroica gets a speeding ticket.


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## hpowders

I hate Furtwängler in Beethoven. Better in Brahms.


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## GreenMamba

Vaneyes said:


> Worst? Any with a slowpoke conductor. Though, there can be too fast. I'm a Scherchen fan (such as LvB 8), but his Eroica gets a speeding ticket.


Bernstein takes the first movement of the 5th in something like 8:40. But there are bits of Beethoven he does well.

Anyway, I still llove my Anton Nanut Beethoven.


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## MarkW

Vaneyes said:


> Worst? Any with a slowpoke conductor. Though, there can be too fast. I'm a Scherchen fan (such as LvB 8), but his Eroica gets a speeding ticket.


The interesting thing about the Scherchen Eroica is that it's still a real performance, and not just a fast-for-the-sake-of-being-fast run-through.

To go back to the OP, however, I remember thinking that the 1960's Bernstein/NYPO set for Columbia that back then everyone had for the sake of having a Beethoven symphony set (especially students) was pretty dreadful.


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## hpowders

SONNET CLV said:


> The problem with Beethoven is, his symphonies are so well written that they can sound decent even when played by hack amateur orchestras. Or Karajan (with the exception of the 1963 cycle).


Yes. I was thinking the same thing. It's really hard to give a bad Beethoven performance. Anyone on TC can conduct a professional orchestra in a competent Beethoven symphony performance, not only because the music is so well-written, but also because every professional orchestra knows this music in their sleep and require minimal instructions as to how the music should go. Just set the tempo and stay out of their way!!


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## SixFootScowl

Well I was not thrilled by the Bruno Walter cycle, though I know many hold it highly, especially the 6th. But certainly Walter is nowhere near the worst.

EDIT: I totally forgot, so much I wanted to forget this, but the Hanover Band cycle is atrocious. That may come in the running for worst cycle. I am glad my set was not expensive, but I have it up on Amazon right now for sale. Good riddance!


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## scratchgolf

hpowders said:


> I hate Furtwängler in Beethoven. Better in Brahms.





hpowders said:


> Yes. I was thinking the same thing. It's really hard to give a bad Beethoven performance. *Anyone on TC can conduct a professional orchestra in a competent Beethoven symphony performance*, not only because the music is so well-written, but also because every professional orchestra knows this music in their sleep....


Seems logical. Seeing how the Berlin Phil has been a competent orchestra since before Furtwangler's time then he must have tried really hard to create hate-worthy performances of Beethoven. I hope I'm the first TC'er to conduct Beethoven, and I can't even read music. I'm probably already a better conductor than Stravinsky. Man, I missed you. Another dig about Schubert not dying soon enough yesterday and a contradiction right after it. Welcome back!


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## isorhythm

manyene said:


> The Norrington cycle has its high points (8th Symphony), and its low (the rushed slow movement to the Choral, a travesty), but I would not call it the worst cycle .


Full disclosure: my entire knowledge of Norrington's Beethoven consists of the first two movements of the Ninth and the first ten seconds of the third movement. I never went beyond that and I never will.


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## DavidA

GioCar said:


> Not the worst cycle, but the most disappointing among the recent ones is the Barenboim with the West-Eastern Divan Orchestra, particularly if compared to his Staatskapelle Berlin cycle.
> I feel a bit uncomfortable when saying that, since I truly believe in the nobleness of this project, but musically speaking there's an abyss between the two cycles, imo. Barenboim has never been so "heavy"...


Agreed! A particular cumbersome cycle. Seems to be trying for a poor imitation of Furtwangler.


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## DavidA

Norrington's first was almost experimental and attracted good reviews from PC critics who followed fashion. It is interesting not bad, I think, but was overrated. Karajan's last cycle was not bad but it didn't add anything to his 1963 and 1977 cycles either in terms of performance or recording quality. It was unnecessary but the maestro wanted digital sound.


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## DavidA

Florestan said:


> Well I was not thrilled by the Bruno Walter cycle, though I know many hold it highly, especially the 6th. But certainly Walter is nowhere near the worst.
> 
> EDIT: I totally forgot, so much I wanted to forget this, but the Hanover Band cycle is atrocious. That may come in the running for worst cycle. I am glad my set was not expensive, but I have it up on Amazon right now for sale. Good riddance!


Walter's earlier mono cycle with the NYPO is the one to have


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## Dustin

I'm not qualified to say whose Beethoven cycle is the worst. Any of these conductors on these commercially available recordings know probably around a million times more about music than most of us do. Preference is another question. 

But bad sound aside, when people declare a recording is "not good", it always makes me wonder. It reminds me of the countless people in everyday life who speak and criticize government as if they are authoritative experts on politics. Makes me want to invite them to join a debate with an actual high-level politician and see who knows more about the effects of a law or the ins and outs of government. Not at all saying politicians always make the right choices, but it's just funny to watch the...couch presidential candidates.


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## Johnnie Burgess

I have the Herbert Kegel cycle. He is slow. The 9th is over 70 minutes.


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## violadude

If this guy has ever or will ever record/ed a Beethoven Symphony cycle, it is/will be the worst ever.


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## superhorn

I've never been crazy about the Toscanini/NBC symphony cycle on RCA . Many think it's the gold standard and the bee's knees, but to me it's always seemed ,like so many of old Artie's NBC performances, merely hectic, punchy, nervous, rushed, coarse, choppy , exaggeratedly clipped, 
metronomically rigid, mechanical, joyless and stiffly regimented . These performances sound more petulant than viscerally exciting .
I also have the 3 CD set of his complete recordings with the New York Philharmonic , and the Beethoven 7th is much better than the remakes .


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## Tedski

ArtMusic said:


> Roger Norrington's cycle was very refreshing. Lean and to the point. I like it. It is well regarded.


+1



ArtMusic said:


> . . . nothing more, nothing less.


I think you meant "plain and simple."


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## Tedski

violadude said:


> If this guy has ever or will ever record/ed a Beethoven Symphony cycle, it is/will be the worst ever.


A rabbi, a priest, and Maximianno Cobra walk into a bar. The bartender says, "What is this, a joke?"


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## Tedski

Dustin said:


> I'm not qualified to say whose Beethoven cycle is the worst. Any of these conductors on these commercially available recordings know probably around a million times more about music than most of us do. Preference is another question.


I've always felt that way, myself. However, I am willing to make an exception in regard to Maximianno Cobra.


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## Tedski

scratchgolf said:


> I hope I'm the first TC'er to conduct Beethoven, and I can't even read music.


Hey, Danny Kaye did it, and he didn't know how to read music, and he didn't know the second thing about conducting (the 1-2-3-4 he figured out).

http://www.nytimes.com/1981/08/16/arts/danny-kaye-i-ve-never-studied-conducting.html


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## GreenMamba

Tedski said:


> I think you meant "plain and simple."


*Pure* and simple.


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## elgar's ghost

I don't have a problem with Roger Norrington's cycle with the LCPs. I agree that his 9th is too eccentric and shaky to work well but elsewhere I don't feel that whatever idiosyncrasies exist detract from my enjoyment. I like some of the more heavy duty accounts as much as the next person but this cycle has a dip in its hip, a glide in its stride and a twinkle in its eye and that's fine by me. It doesn't take itself too seriously - it makes me smile with its openness unlike the more monumental-sounding cycles which can elicit from me a sharp intake of breath in praise of their grandeur - in both cases it's a sign of my appreciation in a private world where chalk can be as appealing as cheese. And no, I don't really give a stuff about the absence of vibrato, whether it's right or wrong.

I guess David Hurwitz will never buy me lunch now...


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## Dustin

Tedski said:


> I've always felt that way, myself. However, I am willing to make an exception in regard to Maximianno Cobra.


You're right. I just listened to his Beethoven 5 and laughed out loud.


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## Johnnie Burgess

I could only listen to Cobra's Beethoven 5 for about 30 seconds.


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## Johnnie Burgess

I decided to buy Roger Norrington' set.


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## Dustin

Johnnie Burgess said:


> I could only listen to Cobra's Beethoven 5 for about 30 seconds.


So basically you listened to the DA DA DA DUUUUUU


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## Johnnie Burgess

Dustin said:


> So basically you listened to the DA DA DA DUUUUUU


Yes, thought there was no way I could listen to his version for another 2 hours.
You can get his whole set on amazon for 125.17 used. I have no idea what that seller is thinking. New it only costs 110.


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## Dim7

Dustin said:


> So basically you listened to the DA DA DA DUUUUUU


I just listen to a 5 second clip of the da da da duuuuu theme over and over again, because that's basically the whole symphony in a nutshell. Less is more!


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## nightscape

I completely forgot about that Cobra guy. Had to look him up to remember that horrific #9 performance. Oh god, now I'm looking up other things he's conducted. Bruckner?!


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## Tedski

Oh, man. Looking over that guy's website, it's evident he is more in love with himself than with the music.


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## DavidA

elgars ghost said:


> I don't have a problem with Roger Norrington's cycle with the LCPs. I agree that his 9th is too eccentric and shaky to work well but elsewhere I don't feel that whatever idiosyncrasies exist detract from my enjoyment. I like some of the more heavy duty accounts as much as the next person but this cycle has a dip in its hip, a glide in its stride and a twinkle in its eye and that's fine by me. It doesn't take itself too seriously - it makes me smile with its openness unlike the more monumental-sounding cycles which can elicit from me a sharp intake of breath in praise of their grandeur - in both cases it's a sign of my appreciation in a private world where chalk can be as appealing as cheese. And no, I don't really give a stuff about the absence of vibrato, whether it's right or wrong.
> 
> I guess David Hurwitz will never buy me lunch now...


Norrington's LCP was I think an experimental cycle to try and reproduce what Beethoven himself might have heard. Of course, the problem is that Beethoven didn't actually hear much of the music he wrote. This might be particularly relevant to some of the metronome markings. Hence the slow movement of 9 is simply too fast at Nortington's speed, however LvB might have marked it. Stravinsky once told Colin Davis he had taken the wrong tempo in one of his works. When Davis pointed out he'd taken it according to Stravinsky's own metronome marking, the composer replied, "The metronome marking is just the beginning!" implying he did not expect literal interpretation, rather one that works.


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## Johnnie Burgess

nightscape said:


> I completely forgot about that Cobra guy. Had to look him up to remember that horrific #9 performance. Oh god, now I'm looking up other things he's conducted. Bruckner?!


He has also ruined some of the works of Bach.


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## Dustin

But seriously, I'm trying to understand what the deal is with this album? It's impossibly bad and played at like half the regular tempo. I read one Amazon review that says this isn't even a real orchestra and that it's just some computer simulation of an orchestra. That's what it sounds like to me.


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## Johnnie Burgess

Dustin said:


> But seriously, I'm trying to understand what the deal is with this album? It's impossibly bad and played at like half the regular tempo. I read one Amazon review that says this isn't even a real orchestra and that it's just some computer simulation of an orchestra. That's what it sounds like to me.
> 
> View attachment 74602


He only recorded the 9th with a real orchestra. I could not image a real orchestra performing for him.


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## Dustin

Johnnie Burgess said:


> He only recorded the 9th with a real orchestra. I could not image a real orchestra performing for him.


Oh so I guess I missed that part. He doesn't use real orchestras. That explains it.


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## Oldhoosierdude

Old thread, but why start another one?

I don't know enough to say what is good or bad. I know which one's I prefer to hear to which one's I don't. And I am fully ready to admit my tastes may not be to the liking of others. I appreciate all of the cycles and the work and expertise going into them, but some I simply don't have the taste for: Some of Toscanini blares in my ears but that may be the recording quality, although the recording I just got off of Amazon Prime seems to be pretty good. Listening to Furtwangler and Klemperer makes me sad because they may have been great performances spoiled by poor recording quality.

The cycles I have given away include: Hogwood, Thieleman, Rattle. With Vanska, Solti, Gardiner, Haitink, and Norrington most likely following soon. As Barry White used to say "it ain't my stick". Oddly enough I don't much mind Krips, probably because that is the record set I had growing up.


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## DaveM

Dustin said:


> But seriously, I'm trying to understand what the deal is with this album? It's impossibly bad and played at like half the regular tempo. I read one Amazon review that says this isn't even a real orchestra and that it's just some computer simulation of an orchestra. That's what it sounds like to me.
> 
> View attachment 74602


I was not familiar with this version. Violadude referred to it also (it's on YouTube). Most bizarre thing I've ever heard. It's one long Lento. Why would a recording of this be made in the first place? Why didn't someone get up and say, "Hey, we've got a major tempo problem!"


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## Guest

As long as it isn't one of those HIPster bands, I'm OK with it!


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## dieter

The worst: Norrington:any. Gardiner's isn't much better. The most unnecessary: most of Karajan's, Rattle's second. 
Lousy: Solti, Van Immerseel, Toscanini,Hogwood, Rattle's first.


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## ArtMusic

dieter said:


> The worst: Norrington:any. Gardiner's isn't much better. The most unnecessary: most of Karajan's, Rattle's second.
> Lousy: Solti, Van Immerseel, Toscanini,Hogwood, Rattle's first.


:lol: I like your way of describing them ("the worst", "the most unnecessary", etc.).

I quite enjoy many of those you rejected.

Which versions do you like? I'm curious.


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## Pugg

The worst: Norrington


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## KenOC

I have over thirty Beethoven symphony cycles. I wouldn't say any of them are "bad". Some I enjoy far more than others, and approaches vary widely enough that there's a pretty good choice for almost any taste.

In a lengthy game on another forum, the two top cycles were Gardiner and Karajan '63. A runoff placed the Gardiner first, but a different day might have had a different result. Both are fine cycles, but quite different. Of the two, I prefer the Gardiner.


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## geralmar

I don't know if this counts, but I still have the 5-CD Intersound set that doesn't name the conductors and is coy about identifying the orchestras ("London Festival Orchestra") and which is notorious for an Eroica that is missing half of the second movement.


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## Pugg

geralmar said:


> I don't know if this counts, but I still have the 5-CD Intersound set that doesn't name the conductors and is coy about identifying the orchestras ("London Festival Orchestra") and which is notorious for an Eroica that is missing half of the second movement.


Keep it, one day it may bring your some novelty collectors money :lol:


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## dieter

ArtMusic said:


> :lol: I like your way of describing them ("the worst", "the most unnecessary", etc.).
> 
> I quite enjoy many of those you rejected.
> 
> Which versions do you like? I'm curious.


For the old fashioned way, Klemperer and Sanderling - there's still so much to enjoy from this viewpoint - there are always the dynamically forthright Furtwangler performances - unlike others, sound doesn't bother me, your ears adjust - I love the warmth of the Colin Davis Dresden recordings, I've just bought the Szell and enjoy them, I like Peter Maag's recordings on Arts, I like Barenboim, find Harnoncourt a little scatty at times, can't get enthusiastic about Chailly, respect the Blomstedt Dresden and Masur Leipzig recordings, love the playing of the Cluytens, find Schuricht too fast and my next project is to see if I like the Cleveland Dohnanyi. I suspect I will. I haven't listened properly to my Bernstein DG set..


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## senza sordino

KenOC said:


> In a lengthy game on another forum, the two top cycles were Gardiner and Karajan '63. A runoff placed the Gardiner first, but a different day might have had a different result. Both are fine cycles, but quite different. Of the two, I prefer the Gardiner.


That's handy, because these two cycles are the only two I own.


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## DavidA

ArtMusic said:


> Roger Norrington's cycle was very refreshing. Lean and to the point. I like it. It is well regarded.
> 
> *I might say Otto Klemperer's version was the version that is now rarely, if at all, followed these days in concert halls. Over blown aesthetics and too much of a perfected sound, which the likes of Karajan followed. *
> 
> Just my opinion, nothing more, nothing less.


I wonder whether you have ever listened to Klemperer or Karajan as they are very different. Karajan was certainly no disciple of Klemperer n Beethoven although he admired the older conductor. Karajan's main influence here probably was Toscanni.


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## KenOC

Klemperer strikes me as dispatching his heavy armored divisions to roll inexorably across the borders of small defenseless countries. Actually an approach I quite enjoy.


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## dieter

KenOC said:


> Klemperer strikes me as dispatching his heavy armored divisions to roll inexorably across the borders of small defenseless countries. Actually an approach I quite enjoy.


I find that a very,very strange reply. Music and war? What an odd juxtaposition. Are you a General or something?


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## KenOC

Music has always been an adjunct to war. Did you know the US spends $437 million annually on its military bands? Why do you suppose that is?

http://www.politico.com/story/2016/05/pentagons-bands-battle-223435


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## joen_cph

As for Klemperer´s Beethoven, I prefer the fresher, earlier recordings, rather than the stereo EMI. 
But then, it´s actually quite little Klemperer I really like, such as the St. Matthew Passion/EMI and Das Lied von der Erde/EMI.


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## DavidA

dieter said:


> I find that a very,very strange reply. Music and war? What an odd juxtaposition. Are you a General or something?


Music has always been a part of warfare, with drums, trumpets, etc..just read some history.


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## KenOC

Beethoven got his biggest single payday from Wellington's Victory, aka "The Battle Symphony." I won't mention Tchaikovsky...


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## dieter

DavidA said:


> Music has always been a part of warfare, with drums, trumpets, etc..just read some history.


I don't call that music, brother.


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## dieter

KenOC said:


> Beethoven got his biggest single payday from Wellington's Victory, aka "The Battle Symphony." I won't mention Tchaikovsky...


Both are the worst compositions their composers wrote.


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## dieter

KenOC said:


> Music has always been an adjunct to war. Did you know the US spends $437 million annually on its military bands? Why do you suppose that is?
> 
> http://www.politico.com/story/2016/05/pentagons-bands-battle-223435


As and adjunct to the billions and billions the US spends on weapons of mass destruction: bathe the slaughter in drums and brass. How beautiful, what a concept.


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## arpeggio

KenOC said:


> I have over thirty Beethoven symphony cycles. I wouldn't say any of them are "bad". Some I enjoy far more than others, and approaches vary widely enough that there's a pretty good choice for almost any taste.


No wonder I am so messed up. I only have four, one vinyl and three CD. Some have already stated the vinyl one is a loser so I will not embarrass myself by admitting which one it is.


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## techniquest

On CD I have the following:
Norrington / London Classical Players
Karajan / Berlin PO ('80s)
Barenboim / Staatskapelle Berlin
Morris / LSO
Davis / Staatskapelle Dresden

On vinyl I have:
Masur / Gewandhaus Leipzig
Klemperer / Philharmonia
Bohm / Vienna Philharmonic

Which of these is the worst, and why?


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## dieter

techniquest said:


> On CD I have the following:
> Norrington / London Classical Players
> Karajan / Berlin PO ('80s)
> Barenboim / Staatskapelle Berlin
> Morris / LSO
> Davis / Staatskapelle Dresden
> 
> On vinyl I have:
> Masur / Gewandhaus Leipzig
> Klemperer / Philharmonia
> Bohm / Vienna Philharmonic
> 
> Which of these is the worst, and why?


Isn't that for you to decide?


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## dieter

arpeggio said:


> No wonder I am so messed up. I only have four, one vinyl and three CD. Some have already stated the vinyl one is a loser so I will not embarrass myself by admitting which one it is.


Maybe you're like me, a born loser according to my teenage daughter.


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## dieter

dieter said:


> For the old fashioned way, Klemperer and Sanderling - there's still so much to enjoy from this viewpoint - there are always the dynamically forthright Furtwangler performances - unlike others, sound doesn't bother me, your ears adjust - I love the warmth of the Colin Davis Dresden recordings, I've just bought the Szell and enjoy them, I like Peter Maag's recordings on Arts, I like Barenboim, find Harnoncourt a little scatty at times, can't get enthusiastic about Chailly, respect the Blomstedt Dresden and Masur Leipzig recordings, love the playing of the Cluytens, find Schuricht too fast and my next project is to see if I like the Cleveland Dohnanyi. I suspect I will. I haven't listened properly to my Bernstein DG set..


And I forgot: the Klezki on Supraphon is wonderful. As is the Wand NDR....


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## techniquest

> Quote Originally Posted by techniquest View Post
> On CD I have the following:
> Norrington / London Classical Players
> Karajan / Berlin PO ('80s)
> Barenboim / Staatskapelle Berlin
> Morris / LSO
> Davis / Staatskapelle Dresden
> 
> On vinyl I have:
> Masur / Gewandhaus Leipzig
> Klemperer / Philharmonia
> Bohm / Vienna Philharmonic
> 
> Which of these is the worst, and why?
> 
> *Isn't that for you to decide?*


Possibly, but as this is a discussion forum, I would be interested to read other peoples points of view.


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## Triplets

dieter said:


> As and adjunct to the billions and billions the US spends on weapons of mass destruction: bathe the slaughter in drums and brass. How beautiful, what a concept.


It didn't start with the U.S.. Rimsky Korsakov official title was Inspector of the Tsar's Navy Bands. Mozart loved Military Music of all types, and quoted several ditties in his Compositions. Kaiser Wilhelm lavished a lot of money on his Military Bands and the French shot them all to pieces in the first two weeks of WW I. The Germans returned the favor; tubas just didn't stand much of a chance against machine guns. Mahler's First and Second Symphonies both quote Military Bands that are meant to be heard in the distance.
And then there is the well documented use of a Prisoner Orchestra greeting new arrivals at Aushwitz before the Germans gassed them and melted their corpses into soap. But we don't want to get all self righteous here; Politics isn't a welcome discussion topic on TC, Herr Dieter


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## DavidA

dieter said:


> I don't call that music, brother.


Whatever you call it, the world at large calls it music!


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## Tedski

geralmar said:


> I still have the 5-CD Intersound set that doesn't name the conductors and is coy about identifying the orchestras ("London Festival Orchestra")


Ahh, the "backup band" for the Moody Blues on "Days of Future Passed."


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## dieter

Triplets said:


> It didn't start with the U.S.. Rimsky Korsakov official title was Inspector of the Tsar's Navy Bands. Mozart loved Military Music of all types, and quoted several ditties in his Compositions. Kaiser Wilhelm lavished a lot of money on his Military Bands and the French shot them all to pieces in the first two weeks of WW I. The Germans returned the favor; tubas just didn't stand much of a chance against machine guns. Mahler's First and Second Symphonies both quote Military Bands that are meant to be heard in the distance.
> And then there is the well documented use of a Prisoner Orchestra greeting new arrivals at Aushwitz before the Germans gassed them and melted their corpses into soap. But we don't want to get all self righteous here; Politics isn't a welcome discussion topic on TC, Herr Dieter


Once again, Hollywood history regarding 'melting corpses into soap'. It's been disproved as total propaganda. Not by Holocaust deniers either:
'There was no industrial production, and the pieces of soap inscribed R.I.F. which Jewish victims were told were made of human fat were found to contain ordinary non-organic fats (R.I.F. means Reichsstelle fuer Industrielle Fettversorgung, or State Centre for Supply of Fats, and not Pure Jewish Fat, as the victims were told by the Nazis).

'The reason why one has to be accurate is that one has to exercise tremendous responsibility and deep respect towards the victims and their relatives and towards the memory of the millions of Jewish dead. What the Nazis did is horrendous enough; we do not need to believe the additional horrors they thought about but did not have time to realize. The Holocaust deniers waiting in the wings are eager to pick up any inaccuracies we may inadvertently commit, and we should not ease their "work."

Yehuda Bauer
Source:Jewish Virtual Library.

According to people like you the Germans killed babies in Belgium, the Iraqis bayoneted the humidi cribs in Kuwaiti hospitals and Saddam Hussein was armed up to the teeth with weapons of mass destruction.
By the way, I find' But we don't want to get all self righteous here; Politics isn't a welcome discussion topic on TC, Herr Dieter' quite offensive. It's in the same paragraph as the disproved claims about soap in Aushwitz. For your information, I was born in 1950, I am an Australian citizen and I had absolutely nothing to do with anything that happened before I was born.


----------



## dieter

DavidA said:


> Whatever you call it, the world at large calls it music!


Most of the world at large, David A, I believe totally abhors anything to do with MILITARY, whether it's so-called music or not. Your comment is typical of the smug armchair purveyors of the world, a position totally divorced from the day to day realities of so many war-torn countries in the world.It's mainly people like you who celebrate those military associations.


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## KenOC

Between the naked politics and the ad hominems, the fur's about to fly around here. Just sayin'. BTW those are some pretty unattractive sentiments for Memorial Day.


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## DavidA

dieter said:


> As and adjunct to the billions and billions the US spends on weapons of mass destruction: bathe the slaughter in drums and brass. How beautiful, what a concept.


We are not discussing the morality of it just the historical fact that music has always been a part of warfare. Just look at the trumpets card on the walls of ancient Ninevah.


----------



## DavidA

dieter said:


> Most of the world at large, David A, I believe totally abhors anything to do with MILITARY, whether it's so-called music or not. Your comment is typical of the smug armchair purveyors of the world, a position totally divorced from the day to day realities of so many war-torn countries in the world.It's mainly people like you who celebrate those military associations.


And it's mainly people like you who judge the statements of other people. I'd respectfully ask you not to do that when you don't know my opinions. As I said we are not dealing with the morality of it just the facts. Music has always been a part of warfare. If you don't believe me just read some history. And as I've travelled the world and been in war-torn situations having soldiers sleeping on my doorstep of the rooms (shacks) I was staying in then I don't think you can say I am totally divorced from reality. Of course, having seen close up and first hand the effects of war I abhor it. But we are discussing whether music was used in warfare and historically it was.


----------



## dieter

DavidA said:


> And it's mainly people like you who judge the statements of other people. As I said we are not dealing with the morality of it just the facts. Music has always been a part of warfare. If you don't believe me just read some history. And as I've travelled the world and been in war-torn situations having soldiers sleeping on my doorstep of the rooms I was staying in then I don't think you can say I am totally divorced from reality.


Fair enough. I still have no idea about how Klemperer's Beethoven can be associated with a country about to invade poorly armed neighbours, nor do I understand how blaring at the walls of Jericho, or Fredericks military bands or so-called music used as 'part of warfare' has anything whatsoever to do with so-called Classical Music or the symphonies of Beethoven. He's the composer of a symphony about the brotherhood of man: military bands indulge in the exact opposite.


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## DavidA

dieter said:


> Fair enough. I still have no idea about how Klemperer's Beethoven can be associated with a country about to invade poorly armed neighbours, nor do I understand how blaring at the walls of Jericho, or Fredericks military bands or so-called music used as 'part of warfare' has anything whatsoever to do with so-called Classical Music or the symphonies of Beethoven. He's the composer of a symphony about the brotherhood of man: military bands indulge in the exact opposite.


Sorry it is quite useless discussing this when you don't even read what people say.


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## dieter

DavidA said:


> Sorry it is quite useless discussing this when you don't even read what people say.


It might make sense to you if you read my reaction to the post that started all this nonsense:
KenOC

Klemperer strikes me as dispatching his heavy armored divisions to roll inexorably across the borders of small defenseless countries. Actually an approach I quite enjoy.


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## KenOC

Well hey, it does and I do! So shoot me.


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## dieter

KenOC said:


> Well hey, it does and I do! So shoot me.


No Thanks:it's just occurred to me, you're a bit crazy, like me, just maybe...We could be friends then.


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## dieter

KenOC said:


> Between the naked politics and the ad hominems, the fur's about to fly around here. Just sayin'. BTW those are some pretty unattractive sentiments for Memorial Day.


Hopefully your definition of Memorial Day is about the totally innocent victims of war, I.E. civilians and those conscripted and those stupid enough to enlist because they believed the lies and ******** their political masters were dispensing.


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## dieter

KenOC said:


> Well hey, it does and I do! So shoot me.


By the way, that's a very unflattering portrait. Your mom ought to be advising you about your best pose.


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## Oldhoosierdude

KenOC said:


> I have over thirty Beethoven symphony cycles. I wouldn't say any of them are "bad". Some I enjoy far more than others, and approaches vary widely enough that there's a pretty good choice for almost any taste.
> 
> In a lengthy game on another forum, the two top cycles were Gardiner and Karajan '63. A runoff placed the Gardiner first, but a different day might have had a different result. Both are fine cycles, but quite different. Of the two, I prefer the Gardiner.


I thought I was the only one to have so many. I just accumulated them over the years. At last count I have 22 currently and have either borrowed or owned and given away at least 5 or 6 more that I didn't care for. I don't care about historical instruments, whether they have them or not. I only care about if I like what I hear. Like you, the one's I don't care for aren't bad, I simply would rather listen to others. 
I believe that I am about to comb through the ones I have and give some more away. There are a few cycles I haven't listened to for a while.


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## dieter

Oldhoosierdude said:


> I thought I was the only one to have so many. I just accumulated them over the years. At last count I have 22 currently and have either borrowed or owned and given away at least 5 or 6 more that I didn't care for. I don't care about historical instruments, whether they have them or not. I only care about if I like what I hear. Like you, the one's I don't care for aren't bad, I simply would rather listen to others.
> I believe that I am about to comb through the ones I have and give some more away. There are a few cycles I haven't listened to for a while.


The various cycles provide endless fascination, I find. Something here that's phenomenal, something there that's pedestrian. Then you find, as I did, that some of the great monoliths like Carlos Kleiber's #5 have inflated reputations. That's the beauty of having choice and, more importantly, a mind of your own.


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## Animal the Drummer

Not all high reputations are necessarily inflated. You and I have agreed before now about Rattle and, as I recall it, the essence of our common reaction to Rattle's aesthetic was/is that he can't help tinkering with the music in an attempt to "do something with" it and hogging the musical limelight as a result. Kleiber's Beethoven 5 is the glorious antithesis of that approach, a performance which is straight as an arrow musically but played as if the performers' lives depended on it.


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## dieter

Animal the Drummer said:


> Not all high reputations are necessarily inflated. You and I have agreed before now about Rattle and, as I recall it, the essence of our common reaction to Rattle's aesthetic was/is that he can't help tinkering with the music in an attempt to "do something with" it and hogging the musical limelight as a result. Kleiber's Beethoven 5 is the glorious antithesis of that approach, a performance which is straight as an arrow musically but played as if the performers' lives depended on it.


I find it a bit blunt and brutal...The orchestra certainly plays for him.


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## Guest

ATTENTION FELLOW TC FORUM MEMBERS, THIS CYCLE HAS PROBABLY ALREADY BEEN MENTION SO THERE IS PROBABLY NOTHING NEW TO BE SEEN HERE.

maximianno cobra's cycle is pretty appalling.


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## Manxfeeder

jms said:


> ATTENTION FELLOW TC FORUM MEMBERS, THIS CYCLE HAS PROBABLY ALREADY BEEN MENTION SO THERE IS PROBABLY NOTHING NEW TO BE SEEN HERE.
> 
> maximianno cobra's cycle is pretty appalling.


Probably so, but I never get tired of hearing it.


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## Johnnie Burgess

Herbert Kegel would be the worst set I have. Symphony 2 ends with pops and other disturbances.


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## Merl

I have so many and most have at least one redeeming symphony but Kegel's is terrible. Klemperer's pedestrian pace makes me fall asleep and I'm not fond of Norrington's set (yet still both have some really high points). I dont like Bernstain with the NYP - dunno why....probably cos it's aimless and I'm not mad on Bernstein full stop. There's plenty I'd rate as average - Sanderling, Kripps, Masur (70s), Walter, Ferencsik (of the bit that I've heard), Barenboim and his 'Beethoven for No Reason cos his other set was miles better', Monteux, Rattle (VPO) and Goodman but even these sets have their merits and at least one good performance.
There's others I've yet to hear, though. I may come back to this thread very soon!


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## Merl

Oh I forgot I have a very average Beethoven set on Brilliant Classics (the first one they issued) with Nanut, Adolphe, etc on it but even that has One decent performance on it (Pesek I think).


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## Johnnie Burgess

Merl said:


> I have so many and most have at least one redeeming symphony but Kegel's is terrible. Klemperer's pedestrian pace makes me fall asleep and I'm not fond of Norrington's set (yet still both have some really high points). I dont like Bernstain with the NYP - dunno why....probably cos it's aimless and I'm not mad on Bernstein full stop. There's plenty I'd rate as average - Sanderling, Kripps, Masur (70s), Walter, Ferencsik (of the bit that I've heard), Barenboim and his 'Beethoven for No Reason cos his other set was miles better', Monteux, Rattle (VPO) and Goodman but even these sets have their merits and at least one good performance.
> There's others I've yet to hear, though. I may come back to this thread very soon!


You are the only other person on tc to say they have or had Kegel's Beethoven set or had heard of it.


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## SixFootScowl

perhaps the worst Beethoven symphony cycle is the piano transcription.


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## Johnnie Burgess

Florestan said:


> perhaps the worst Beethoven symphony cycle is the piano transcription.


I do not know if it should count as a symphony cycle or something else. Either way to reduce to something like that was bad.


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## SixFootScowl

Johnnie Burgess said:


> I do not know if it should count as a symphony cycle or something else. Either way to reduce to something like that was bad.


A necessary bad (but good) in the day. And potentially some good piano in the right hands.


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## Johnnie Burgess

Florestan said:


> A necessary bad (but good) in the day. And potentially some good piano in the right hands.


Maybe for a person who could play a piano and did not have an orchestra around to do the other parts.


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## SixFootScowl

Johnnie Burgess said:


> Maybe for a person who could play a piano and did not have an orchestra around to do the other parts.


Exactly. They could not just flip a CD into the player.


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## Johnnie Burgess

Florestan said:


> Exactly. They could not just flip a CD into the player.


They might thought a cd back then was black magic, if you could go back and show them.


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## Pugg

Florestan said:


> perhaps the worst Beethoven symphony cycle is the piano transcription.


Hallelujah, at least I am not alone any more.


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## Johnnie Burgess

Pugg said:


> Hallelujah, at least I am not alone any more.


I have not heard any of the piano transcriptions. I might not want to after they way you two talk about them.


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## KenOC

Liszt's piano transcriptions are excellent, the work of many years. Cyprien Katsaris does a great job with them. Very much worth hearing.


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## GreenMamba

Johnnie Burgess said:


> I have not heard any of the piano transcriptions. I might not want to after they way you two talk about them.


They're good. Ken OC is right.


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## SixFootScowl

GreenMamba said:


> They're good. Ken OC is right.


Very true, but symphonies they are not. So I was just playing with the difference in saying they are probably the worst symphony cycle.


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## Guest

Curiosity killed the cat, they say, and it may be about to do irreparable damage to me too, as I wonder whether I should now embark on a marathon to test out the claims made about Norrington and Klemperer (and others) conducting the worst cycles.

Which begs the question, Johnnie, why you started this thread in the first place!


----------



## Merl

Johnnie Burgess said:


> You are the only other person on tc to say they have or had Kegel's Beethoven set or had heard of it.


I didnt pay for it. ;-)


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## premont

Johnnie Burgess said:


> You are the only other person on tc to say they have or had Kegel's Beethoven set or had heard of it.


I own it too. Do not find it that bad. It is rather traditional in conception, but at least not colourless like Masur or Krips.


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## quack

MacLeod said:


> Curiosity killed the cat, they say, and it may be about to do irreparable damage to me too, as I wonder whether I should now embark on a marathon to test out the claims made about Norrington and Klemperer (and others) conducting the worst cycles.
> 
> Which begs the question, Johnnie, why you started this thread in the first place!


Norrington disappointed me, not because it was bad but because it wasn't bad. It didn't sound amazingly good either though, rather it left me wondering what was the fuss all about. Perhaps I missed out on the early days of HIP when it was strange and iconoclastic but I was distinctly unmoved by either of his cycles, they sounded neither amazingly revelatory or an atrocious travesty, none of the hyperbole that people assign to them.

Can't say I like Klemperer though. I like his recordings a lot in other composers: Mahler, Bruckner, Brahms, even Mozart but he just seems lumpen and ponderous in Beethoven. Thirding Cyprien Katsaris' transcription recording though it is very good. Idil Biret's recordings of the transcriptions on the other hand were tedious.


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## premont

In my opinion the worst Beethoven symphony cycles are the ones which are permeated with cold perfectionism (Blomstedt, Böhm, Norrington I e.g.) or uninspiring routine (e.g. Leinsdorf - except his Choral).


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## Johnnie Burgess

MacLeod said:


> Curiosity killed the cat, they say, and it may be about to do irreparable damage to me too, as I wonder whether I should now embark on a marathon to test out the claims made about Norrington and Klemperer (and others) conducting the worst cycles.
> 
> Which begs the question, Johnnie, why you started this thread in the first place!


Seems you see threads about what was the best cycle. Why not one about the worse. What makes a bad cycle.


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## Johnnie Burgess

Merl said:


> I didnt pay for it. ;-)


I only got because it was very cheap.


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## realdealblues

I don't know that Maximianno Cobra's cycle counts but if it does it's probably the worst. 

This all comes down to what is considered bad? Bad Orchestral Playing? Bad choice of Tempos? Total disregard for Beethoven's instructions? A lot of cycles I don't care for are just dull. They aren't necessarily bad. Some I don't care for the playing, some just plain don't feel right. It all comes down to your criteria I guess.


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## Johnnie Burgess

realdealblues said:


> I don't know that Maximianno Cobra's cycle counts but if it does it's probably the worst.


He did not use a real symphony for all of them. On the 9th he did. On a side note. Karl Böhm's last 9th was only 34 minutes shorter than Cobra's.


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## SixFootScowl

Perhaps it is enough to know there are some substandard cycles, quite a few that could be considered worse or the worst. My focus is on the best, but even then, Klemperer and Walter are among the best, but I got rid of them--too slow.


My favorites are Zinman, Toscanini (~1950), and Monteux. These are not necessarily the best, but my favorites. However, I have not heard many cycles and it is hard to digest an entire cycle to the point of determining how good it is. At least it is not easy for me to do that. I still have a few other great cycles that maybe I will get into another day: Bernstein NYPO, Wand, Szell.


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## Johnnie Burgess

Florestan said:


> Perhaps it is enough to know there are some substandard cycles, quite a few that could be considered worse or the worst. My focus is on the best, but even then, Klemperer and Walter are among the best, but I got rid of them--too slow.


Even if they play the work slowly, they are able to keep your attention. Karl Böhm in his last 9th was pushing the limit by how slow it was.


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## SixFootScowl

If anyone did a computer generated symphony cycle, that would be the worst!


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## Johnnie Burgess

Florestan said:


> Perhaps it is enough to know there are some substandard cycles, quite a few that could be considered worse or the worst. My focus is on the best, but even then, Klemperer and Walter are among the best, but I got rid of them--too slow.
> 
> My favorites are Zinman, Toscanini (~1950), and Monteux. These are not necessarily the best, but my favorites. However, I have not heard many cycles and it is hard to digest an entire cycle to the point of determining how good it is. At least it is not easy for me to do that. I still have a few other great cycles that maybe I will get into another day: Bernstein NYPO, Wand, Szell.


Szell is very good. He is also very good with Haydn. Symphony 93 by him is very good.


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## millionrainbows

Vaneyes said:


> Worst? Any with a slowpoke conductor. Though, there can be too fast. I'm a Scherchen fan (such as LvB 8), but his Eroica gets a speeding ticket.


If you want slow, it's Klemperer. It's ridiculously slow!

Roger Norrington's name keeps popping up here, and whether it's pro or con, that can't be a good thing. Maximianno Cobra, too.

I like the Gardiner and Harnoncourt. I can't abide Karajan, of any vintage.

I'd like to hear Orpheus do a scaled-down set.

Imagine this cycle, found at Fed-Mart in a cutout bin:

The Acme Symphony Short-Wave Radio Orchestra
Conducted by Mortimer Haskell


----------



## Johnnie Burgess

millionrainbows said:


> If you want slow, it's Klemperer. It's ridiculously slow!
> 
> Roger Norrington's name keeps popping up here, and whether it's pro or con, that can't be a good thing. Maximianno Cobra, too.
> 
> Conducted by Mortimer Haskell


Maximianno Cobra is so slow he makes Klemperer look like a sprinter.


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## SixFootScowl

Johnnie Burgess said:


> Maximianno Cobra is so slow he makes Klemperer look like a sprinter.


There was a You Tube of some conductor doing Beethoven's Ninth that lasted about two hours. It was horrible. Maybe same guy?


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## Johnnie Burgess

Florestan said:


> There was a You Tube of some conductor doing Beethoven's Ninth that lasted about two hours. It was horrible. Maybe same guy?


Yes it was. It was like 1 hour and 54 minutes long.


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## geralmar

Maybe "worst" in a different context, but I have a Furtwangler cycle on the Olympic LP label that prompted a lawsuit by Furtwangler's widow. She claimed that besides the set being unauthorized the second symphony was not conducted by her husband. I remember speculation that the mystery conductor was Erich Kleiber, but the set was withdrawn and interest waned quickly.


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## Johnnie Burgess

geralmar said:


> Maybe "worst" in a different context, but I have a Furtwangler cycle on the Olympic LP label that prompted a lawsuit by Furtwangler's widow. She claimed that besides the set being unauthorized the second symphony was not conducted by her husband. I remember speculation that the mystery conductor was Erich Kleiber, but the set was withdrawn and interest waned quickly.


On amazon there a couple complete sets of his Beethoven cycle including symphony # 2.


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## Pugg

geralmar said:


> Maybe "worst" in a different context, but I have a Furtwangler cycle on the Olympic LP label that prompted a lawsuit by Furtwangler's widow. She claimed that besides the set being unauthorized the second symphony was not conducted by her husband. I remember speculation that the mystery conductor was Erich Kleiber, but the set was withdrawn and interest waned quickly.


 I remember reading this somewhere, thanks for reminding me.


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## Johnnie Burgess

geralmar said:


> Maybe "worst" in a different context, but I have a Furtwangler cycle on the Olympic LP label that prompted a lawsuit by Furtwangler's widow. She claimed that besides the set being unauthorized the second symphony was not conducted by her husband. I remember speculation that the mystery conductor was Erich Kleiber, but the set was withdrawn and interest waned quickly.


Now there 4 copies of it for sale on arkimusic:

http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical...id2=4103&name_role2=3&bcorder=31&comp_id=3819


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## Pugg

Florestan said:


> There was a You Tube of some conductor doing Beethoven's Ninth that lasted about two hours. It was horrible. Maybe same guy?


That must be a nightmare.


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## Johnnie Burgess

Pugg said:


> That must be a nightmare.


Can you image what the performers felt. Not only had to play it for the recording but the hours of practice.


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## Merl

I posted this review elsewhere but I'll leave it here too. Possibly one of the worst of the Beethoven cycles I heard the other day is by Fedoseyev and the Symphony Orchestra of Moscow Radio. It's recorded live and it soon becomes obvious it is. An orchestra of hyperactive broadsheet newspaper readers (from the sound of it), pedestrian speeds, boring unimaginative conducting, terrible orchestral playing (bum notes, out of time instruments), shrill brass, dated sound and some of the worst coughing I've heard in a live recording. The whole thing was obviously recorded during a flu epidemic at the Russian Chainsmoker's Institute and to cap it off a children's choir in the 9th symphony. It could only be made worse by having my cats crying loudly through the whole of the second movement whilst a man scratched a chalboard loudly with his fingernails. Poor Ludwig would be spinning almost perpetually in his grave if he knew this had been done to his symphonies. If you see it on offer anywhere leave it where it is. Gruesome.


----------



## hpowders

The Minnesota Orchestra set led by Vänskä.

It is sabotaged by horribly wide recording dynamics making the set for me at least, unlistenable.


----------



## Mal

Zinman - wild tempos and very undernourished string section let this set down. This means no portent or passion in the big odd numbered symphonies, which means you just don't get echt Beethoven.The band is too small (sounds less than it's reported 50, which is too small anyway...) The general buoyancy and good recorded sound, and a couple of decent performances, seem to have tricked some professional British critics into thinking it's a good set. I quite like Zinman's smooth #2, which works well while wind-dominated and well-recorded. As for his (and Norrington's!) #9 I'll quote "third ear":

"Zinman's joke of a recording should never have been released. Like Norrington, he strives for metronomic accuracy at the expense of any sense of natural rhythm or flow. The choral work is excellent, but part of the same misguided sludge."


----------



## Enthusiast

I can't claim to have read this whole old thread but from what I have seen (a page or two back) many select sets that are quite distinctive in one way or another. For me the worst sets will be those that are _not _distinctive. I doubt I would bother with listening to a whole set of such performances but I do remember an Abbado Eroica (with the VPO, I think - before his BPO says) that was very dull.

Of the distinctive ones I might be tempted to choose Gardiner's much praised set. He seemed content to make a conceptual point and seemed to lack a love for the music. His later live recordings with the same orchestra were much better, I think, as his approach seemed to have matured.


----------



## CnC Bartok

There are cycles which I really don't like very much, and conductors who just don't do it for me; in the latter category I'd put Karajan's last DGG cycle (I like his mid-to-late '70s one, more than the EMI and more than the '60s one). I don't like Bernstein's on Sony/CBS either; and I was bitterly disappointed with Kubelik's nine-orchestra set. And I really do not like Toscanini, even admitting that I am aware some revere him and his readings. Furtwangler? Not my cup of tea...

Sorry, but I do not know the Barenboim sets, not the earlier Abbado cycle, but reputation might suggest they could win this.....

But the one I reckon should be considered for the "worst Beethoven cycle" award - and I regret saying this, honestly - is Rudolf Kempe's Munich set on EMI. I admire Kempe very much, a fine conductor, but this set has nothing going for it, nothing controversial, but bland from first note to last. _Not distinctive._

My favourite and most revered sets are (not necessarily in any particular order): Jochum in London, Krivine, Kletzki, and Cluytens.


----------



## chill782002

I don't have that many Beethoven cycles but I have to agree with some earlier posts that the Kegel / Dresden Philharmonic set is pretty bad. Just boring really, which is about the greatest crime a conductor and orchestra can commit from a musical point of view. I'd forgotten about it completely and it's gathering dust somewhere. Disappointing as Kegel was a good interpreter of some other composers. Not old LvB though.


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## wkasimer

Although Barenboim's intentions were good with relation to his most recent set with the East-West Divan Orchestra, the result was barely competent.

And the Kempe set probably qualifies as the worst set by a major and highly respected conductor with a fine professional orchestra, although the Sawallisch/Concertgebouw is a contender. And I love both Kempe and Sawallisch in other repertoire, particularly Wagner and Strauss. No, wait a minute...Thielemann/VPO is utterly without merit.

None of Abbado's cycles are particularly memorable, either.


----------



## DavidA

wkasimer said:


> *Although Barenboim's intentions were good with relation to his most recent set with the East-West Divan Orchestra, the result was barely competent.
> *
> And the Kempe set probably qualifies as the worst set by a major and highly respected conductor with a fine professional orchestra, although the Sawallisch/Concertgebouw is a contender. And I love both Kempe and Sawallisch in other repertoire, particularly Wagner and Strauss. No, wait a minute...Thielemann/VPO is utterly without merit.
> 
> None of Abbado's cycles are particularly memorable, either.


Barenboim appears to want to be a latter-day Furtwangler without the latter's spontaneity (or genius) in Beethoven


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## Enthusiast

DavidA said:


> Barenboim appears to want to be a latter-day Furtwangler without the latter's spontaneity (or genius) in Beethoven


Furtwangler is sort of famous for changes in speed. Barenboim does the same which may be why they are compared. But Furtwangler somehow never seemed to lose the pulse of a piece


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## wkasimer

DavidA said:


> Barenboim appears to want to be a latter-day Furtwangler without the latter's spontaneity (or genius) in Beethoven


The problem with the most recent set is .... nothing happens.

Actually, Barenboim's earlier set, with the Staatskapelle Berlin, is among my favorites.


----------



## Merl

As my tastes have changed so has my tolerance for boring cycles. I must admit ive nevr really liked Abbado's characterless VPO cycle, Kempe's bland set, either Bernstein set, Thielemann's plodding, poorly recorded snoozefest, Kegel's dreary cycle or Celibidache's turgid, gruelling readings (his 7th almost reduced me to tears of frustration). I recently got Stangel's Pocket Philharmonic set and it bored me to death. Im by no means a hater of HIP but it just sounds wrong. Review of Stangel to follow in my mop-up of of Granate's Beethoven cycles.


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## larold

I have no idea if it is "good" or "bad" but one of the least known, or perhaps forgotten, Beethoven cycles is from Bernard Haitink.


----------



## wkasimer

larold said:


> I have no idea if it is "good" or "bad" but one of the least known, or perhaps forgotten, Beethoven cycles is from Bernard Haitink.


Which one? BH has recorded three cycles, with the LPO, the RCO, and the LSO. The last one is quite good.


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## CnC Bartok

That last cycle with the LSO is the only Haitink cycle I've got, the one with the awful and pretentious art work on the CD sleeves? Other than weird swathes of arty naked flesh, it's a very fine cycle.

Looking at some of the more recent comments, I am mightily relieved to not be the only one to snore along with Kempe here. I really thought there was something wrong with me.....


----------



## david johnson

I disagree with all who dislike Klemperer's EMI set


----------



## Enthusiast

larold said:


> I have no idea if it is "good" or "bad" but one of the least known, or perhaps forgotten, Beethoven cycles is from Bernard Haitink.


His LSO Live set was very well received by many. I thought it had some good (and some dull) performances in it.


----------



## Enthusiast

david johnson said:


> I disagree with all who dislike Klemperer's EMI set


Oh yes. It was a seminal achievement with many fine and very distinctive performances. Even the ones within it that I enjoy less are great music making.


----------



## DavidA

Enthusiast said:


> His LSO Live set was very well received by many. I thought it had some good (and some dull) performances in it.


It was called 'lean beef' Beethoven - but I prefer Lud with some fat on it!


----------



## Enthusiast

DavidA said:


> It was called 'lean beef' Beethoven - but I prefer Lud with some fat on it!


but for me one of the most amazing things about Beethoven is how many different interpretations and approaches can show me new sides to it without losing the essential greatness.

Of course, lean beef is better for your heart.


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## bz3

I agree with Abbado being sort of bland. They play him on the radio somewhat frequently in Beethoven. His 7th is 'competent' but that is not a compliment in a symphony like the 7th.


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## Johnnie Burgess

Surprised this thread has become active again. Kegel in symphony 2 was ok until the last minute when the recording is horrible.


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## Merl

I really like Haitink's LSO cycle. The 4th, 7th aand 8th are excellent accounts and the 9th gets better and better, building to a superb finale. Far better than either of his other cycles.


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## Johnnie Burgess

Bringing this thread back up to see if anyone can add to it.


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## Merl

Ill be adding to it soon. Just gotta finish my most recent LvB cycles review. There's a really boring one in there. No spoilers yet, tho.....


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## Johnnie Burgess

Recently listed to #9 by Solti and the Chicago symphony orchestra, and was not impressed by it.


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## MatthewWeflen

Bernstein VPO is the worst one I own. Absolutely somnambulent.

Which is not to say it's wholly without merit. The slow tempii allow one to hear every instrument. But I cannot forgive the 5th, and I do not "listen" to this one for enjoyment. Occasionally I will throw it on to hear the instrumentation.

This raises the question to me if there are symphonies that are more important to get "right" within the Beethoven cycle. Would the 5th be the most important bellwether? The 9th? 7th? 6th?


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## MatthewWeflen

This is the worst ever Beethoven symphony recording I've ever heard. Lenny is off the hook.


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## MatthewWeflen

Here is a link to the whole Maximilianno Cobra cycle, if you'd like to torture yourself for some reason:

https://www.tempuscollection.com/en...tem/beethoven-the-9-symphonies?category_id=95

But at least we have a definitive answer to the original question?


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## Brahmsianhorn

MatthewWeflen said:


> Bernstein VPO is the worst one I own. Absolutely somnambulent.
> 
> Which is not to say it's wholly without merit. The slow tempii allow one to hear every instrument. But I cannot forgive the 5th, and I do not "listen" to this one for enjoyment. Occasionally I will throw it on to hear the instrumentation.
> 
> This raises the question to me if there are symphonies that are more important to get "right" within the Beethoven cycle. Would the 5th be the most important bellwether? The 9th? 7th? 6th?
> 
> View attachment 115809


I think it is an across the board evaluation. A cycle must be uniformly bad to qualify as worst. Zinman is the one I would nominate. Boring across the board.

The Bernstein 5th is the low point of the cycle, but the 1st, 2nd, 4th, 6th, 7th, 8th, and especially the 9th are among the best available. It is a shame the 5th misfires because his 1976 BRSO Amnesty concert version is one of the best ever recorded, preferable even to Kleiber IMO.


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## joen_cph

Well, opinions differ. I like Zinman's, contrary to what I would expect, and much more than Gardiner's, whereas I skipped Bernstein/VPO (and kept Gardiner and Bernstein/NYPO).


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## Heck148

Worst Beethoven cycles?? I'd probably go for Leinsdorf and Karajan....neither does much for me...esp Leinsdorf, who manages to make virtually everything pedestrian and lifelessly stodgy...HvK's ever-present bloated, ultra-smooth approach doesn't cut it for me, either.


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## Larkenfield

Heck148 said:


> Worst Beethoven cycles?? I'd probably go for Leinsdorf and Karajan....neither does much for me...esp Leinsdorf, who manages to make virtually everything pedestrian and lifelessly stodgy...HvK's ever-present bloated, ultra-smooth approach doesn't cut it for me, either.


Sounds like Leinsdorf sparkles in this one right off the bat … and there's some lovely long lines, a sense of liveliness and graceful phrasing... I know the BSO disliked him but I've heard some excellent performances and this is hardly the worst Beethoven 8th I've ever heard. It does not sound dry or pedestrian to me because it has a certain rhythmic vitality. Maybe the other recordings are ordinary. But on the basis of hearing this one, I would find that hard to imagine.


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## Heck148

Larkenfield said:


> Sounds like Leinsdorf sparkles in this one right off the bat … and there's some lovely long lines, a sense of liveliness and graceful phrasing... I know the BSO disliked him but I've heard some excellent performances and this is hardly the worst Beethoven 8th I've ever heard. It does not sound dry or pedestrian to me because it has a certain rhythmic vitality. Maybe the other recordings are ordinary. But on the basis of hearing this one, I would find that hard to imagine.


I heard Leinsdorf/BSO many times in the 60s...Leinsdorf was a really "dead stick"...he could drain the life out if anything...he even kills Weill's "3 penny Opera" Music...he had a huge repertoire, most all of which he conducted with a deadly, pedestrian stodginess...


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