# 1st Christmas Contest:O Holy Night: Bjorling, Sutherland, Norman



## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

I thought I'd see if once a week individual Xmas contests would interest you as many opera singers recorded wonderful stuff. I thought we'd start with the most operatic one, O Holy Night. There will be three in each so skip an artist you hate. I love all three of these. Sutherland likely sings the most spectacular high note in any Xmas music that I'm aware of. BTW, I LOVE Christmas music tons!!!! I'm not really religious, but it is nostalgic for me.







https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UJjVWn0zwm8


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## MAS (Apr 15, 2015)

There’s a certain martial quality, especially in French, that I associate with this piece (“aria?”) that makes it - for me - more of a man’s piece and that quality is impossible to convey with the English words. My ideal version is by Georges Thill, closely followed by Roberto Alagna, chiefly for his passionate rendition. 

As much as I like Jessye Norman and as familiar as I am with Sutherland’s stupendous singing of this, the palm must go to the absolutely gorgeous rendition by Jussi Björling, again in Swedish. I don’t know what it is, but when he sings in his native language, I can’t help but love his singing. (No, I don’t speak Swedish).


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## wkasimer (Jun 5, 2017)

Thill's version is the finest, and no one else is even close.

But for something completely different:


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

Somehow I find it almost mandatory to hear the French version otherwise it takes something away even when the singer is superb.
Having said that I shall now take it all back because there is no one, not one singer, who is able to touch my heart and start the lump in my throat but Jussi's rendition, French or not!


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## MAS (Apr 15, 2015)

wkasimer said:


> Thill's version is the finest, and no one else is even close.
> 
> But for something completely different:


Sorry, way too pop for me.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

wkasimer said:


> Thill's version is the finest, and no one else is even close.
> 
> But for something completely different:


It is now on next weeks car playlist with my friend Ellen. Of course, I like pop much more than most of this bunch;-)


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

nina foresti said:


> Somehow I find it almost mandatory to hear the French version otherwise it takes something away even when the singer is superb.
> Having said that I shall now take it all back because there is no one, not one singer, who is able to touch my heart and start the lump in my throat but Jussi's rendition, French or not!


All so great but I agree, his is very special.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

You can melt Frosty the snowman, eat Rudolph the red-nosed reindeer for dinner, and give Mary the morning after pill, but leave me Bjorling's "O helga natt."


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

MAS said:


> There's a certain martial quality, especially in French, that I associate with this piece ("aria?") that makes it - for me - more of a man's piece and that quality is impossible to convey with the English words. My ideal version is by Georges Thill, closely followed by Roberto Alagna, chiefly for his passionate rendition.
> 
> As much as I like Jessye Norman and as familiar as I am with Sutherland's stupendous singing of this, the palm must go to the absolutely gorgeous rendition by Jussi Björling, again in Swedish. I don't know what it is, but when he sings in his native language, I can't help but love his singing. (No, I don't speak Swedish).


I don't hear the aria - and it really sounds like one, unsurprisingly given its composer - as martial. I do hear Georges Thill's splendid rendition as martial, which is why I prefer Bjorling. Thill may as well be singing the _Marseillaise._


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## MAS (Apr 15, 2015)

Woodduck said:


> I don't hear the aria - and it really sounds like one, unsurprisingly given its composer - as martial


I may be alone in this.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

I didn't much like Norman's arrangement so that put her out of the running.

The Sutherland version I know quite well because I have the album it's from and it's full of fabulously over the top arrangements by Douglas Gamley, I think. The top notes are stunning but once past the first line I haven't a clue what she's singing about, which, as most of you know, I find extremely irritating. 

Jussi just makes my heart melt with his beautiful, heart-felt version. A very easy win for me. 

Incidentally, if I want to hear a soprano singing this, I'd probably go to Leontyne Price with Karajan and the Vienna Phil. It's stunning (and you can hear more of her words).


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

wkasimer said:


> Thill's version is the finest, and no one else is even close.
> 
> But for something completely different:


I actually prefer this arrangement to the one Jessye has.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

There are many postings of the Bjorling recording on YouTube, where I first discovered it. I was as moved by people's comments as by the music and performance - listeners of every sort reaching for ways to express their emotions. I get a special pleasure from reading the incredulous reactions of people who don't normally like, or listen to, classical music or opera, and didn't realize that singing like this existed (of course, as we know, it rarely does). 

If I had to pick one moment in a perfect performance that seems to me typically Bjorling, it would be the way his voice opens out and acquires an almost unthinkable vibrant brilliance on the last "helga" before the climactic note (which is astounding in itself). The ability to open up a high note even further from a forte without constriction or distortion is rare, and Bjorling did it elsewhere as well. Only a voice completely free of impediments can create an effect like this. (I've noticed Melchior doing it too.)

"O Holy Night" is the favorite Christmas song of many people (some survey was taken somewhere), and I'd be willing to bet that Bjorling's rendering of it, in a language most of the world doesn't speak, becomes the immediate favorite of a majority of people who hear it.


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## MAS (Apr 15, 2015)

Woodduck said:


> There are many postings of the Bjorling recording on YouTube, where I first discovered it. I was as moved by people's comments as by the music and performance - listeners of every sort reaching for ways to express their emotions. I get a special pleasure from reading the incredulous reactions of people who don't normally like, or listen to, classical music or opera, and didn't realize that singing like this existed (of course, as we know, it rarely does).
> 
> If I had to pick one moment in a perfect performance that seems to me typically Bjorling, it would be the way his voice opens out and acquires an almost unthinkable vibrant brilliance on the last "helga" before the climactic note (which is astounding in itself). The ability to open up a high note even further from a forte without constriction or distortion is rare, and Bjorling did it elsewhere as well. Only a voice completely free of impediments can create an effect like this. (I've noticed Melchior doing it too.)
> 
> "O Holy Night" is the favorite Christmas song of many people (some survey was taken somewhere), and I'd be willing to bet that Bjorling's rendering of it, in a language most of the world doesn't speak, becomes the immediate favorite of a majority of people who hear it.


Very nice, thanks Woodduck - it's my favorite Christmas Carol, but usually spoilt by the usual overblown arrangements.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

MAS said:


> Very nice, thanks Woodduck - it's my favorite Christmas Carol, but usually spoilt by the usual overblown arrangements.


Yeah, 'tis the season to overblow everything.


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## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

To me, Bjorling sounds too much like a teenage boy. Like, a teenage boy who knows how to sing, but when I listen to opera singers, my tastes are a little more "have depth and resonance or go home". 

This doesn't have to be a bad thing. Considering most of the roles assigned to lighter tenor voices, I'm sure it's part of his appeal, but it was never really my cup of tea.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Tsaraslondon said:


> I didn't much like Norman's arrangement so that put her out of the running.
> 
> The Sutherland version I know quite well because I have the album it's from and it's full of fabulously over the top arrangements by Douglas Gamley, I think. The top notes are stunning but once past the first line I haven't a clue what she's singing about, which, as most of you know, I find extremely irritating.
> 
> ...


A friend swears by her version. Thanks.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Woodduck said:


> There are many postings of the Bjorling recording on YouTube, where I first discovered it. I was as moved by people's comments as by the music and performance - listeners of every sort reaching for ways to express their emotions. I get a special pleasure from reading the incredulous reactions of people who don't normally like, or listen to, classical music or opera, and didn't realize that singing like this existed (of course, as we know, it rarely does).
> 
> If I had to pick one moment in a perfect performance that seems to me typically Bjorling, it would be the way his voice opens out and acquires an almost unthinkable vibrant brilliance on the last "helga" before the climactic note (which is astounding in itself). The ability to open up a high note even further from a forte without constriction or distortion is rare, and Bjorling did it elsewhere as well. Only a voice completely free of impediments can create an effect like this. (I've noticed Melchior doing it too.)
> 
> "O Holy Night" is the favorite Christmas song of many people (some survey was taken somewhere), and I'd be willing to bet that Bjorling's rendering of it, in a language most of the world doesn't speak, becomes the immediate favorite of a majority of people who hear it.


Beautifully put. I was hoping people wouldn't stick up their noses at Christmas music.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

BalalaikaBoy said:


> To me, Bjorling sounds too much like a teenage boy. Like, a teenage boy who knows how to sing, but when I listen to opera singers, my tastes are a little more "have depth and resonance or go home".
> 
> This doesn't have to be a bad thing. Considering most of the roles assigned to lighter tenor voices, I'm sure it's part of his appeal, but it was never really my cup of tea.


This, from someone whose avatar is a teenage boy.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

BalalaikaBoy said:


> To me, Bjorling sounds too much like a teenage boy. Like, a teenage boy who knows how to sing, but when I listen to opera singers, my tastes a little more "have depth and resonance or go home".
> 
> This doesn't have to be a bad thing. Considering most of the roles assigned to lighter tenor voices, I'm sure it's part of his appeal, but it was never really my cup of tea.


You want men to sound like men. He has a big voice but it has a brilliant, teen boy brightness to it. I really love this but it is way too young sounding for you. One more of my Xmas offerings will definitely not be for you LOL. I'll try to remember to warn you LOL


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## Red Terror (Dec 10, 2018)

Woodduck said:


> This, from someone whose avatar is a teenage boy.


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## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

Woodduck said:


> This, from someone whose avatar is a teenage boy.


Actually, my avatar is neither a teenager, nor a male. Her name is Balalaika: a former KGB officer turned Russian mafia lord. She's the main boss in the anime Black Lagoon. The markings you see on her face are the burns from an accident when she was deployed to Afghanistan in the 80s


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## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

Seattleoperafan said:


> You want men to sound like men. He has a big voice but it has a brilliant, teen boy brightness to it. I really love this but it is way too young sounding for you. One more of my Xmas offerings will definitely not be for you LOL. I'll try to remember to warn you LOL


Nothing to warn me about. Good singing doesn't offend me even when it's not to my tastes for one reason or another.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

BalalaikaBoy said:


> Actually, my avatar is neither a teenager, nor a male. Her name is Balalaika: a former KGB officer turned Russian mafia lord. She's the main boss in the anime Black Lagoon. The markings you see on her face are the burns from an accident when she was deployed to Afghanistan in the 80s


Whatever it's supposed to represent, it looks exactly like a teenage boy. You prefer men who "sound like men" (no matter how much of the human race, and how many great singers, that leaves out)? That's fine, but how about women who "look like women"?

I know, de gustibus and all that... But we may as well go full sexist while we're at it.


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## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

Woodduck said:


> Whatever it's supposed to represent, it looks exactly like a teenage boy. You prefer men who "sound like men" (no matter how much of the human race, and how many great singers, that leaves out)? That's fine, but how about women who "look like women"?
> 
> I know, de gustibus and all that... But we may as well go full sexist while we're at it.


While I feel compelled to point out that a man and a boy are, in fact, the same gender (hence, "full sexist" is a strange criticism), I'm also cognizant that my political views are way too conservative even for most of the people here over twice my age. Trust we, we don't want to get into politics here :lol:


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

BalalaikaBoy said:


> While I feel compelled to point out that a man and a boy are, in fact, the same gender (hence, "full sexist" is a strange criticism), I'm also cognizant that my political views are way too conservative even for most of the people here over twice my age. Trust we, we don't want to get into politics here :lol:


On that we agree.

Regarding the appeal of Bjorling's singing, its ease of emission is a principal reason. It just pours forth, vibrant, free and consistent, seeming to transcend the physical act of singing. It easily moves between the warm and delicate and the brilliant and heroic. It sometimes seems to me to transcend nature. All this is audible in his "O Holy Night," which sounds not boyish but (appropriately) angelic.


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

BalalaikaBoy said:


> Actually, my avatar is neither a teenager, nor a male. Her name is Balalaika: a former KGB officer turned Russian mafia lord. She's the main boss in the anime Black Lagoon. The markings you see on her face are the burns from an accident when she was deployed to Afghanistan in the 80s


My goodness, a Black Lagoon fan. I've never read the manga version of this but I have seen the anime seasons. Excellent stuff.


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## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

sorry, I'm getting off topic 

I chose Sutherland's version for her combination of depth and bright, spinning overtones. Too little of the latter and you lose the otherworldly feel, too little of the former and you lose the sense of magnitude and grandeur.



Barbebleu said:


> My goodness, a Black Lagoon fan. I've never read the manga version of this but I have seen the anime seasons. Excellent stuff.


Her character spoke to me. Sometimes anime production companies need to focus less on feel-good shonen work like My Hero Academia and dive more into the *gritty* characters with dark, sinister backstories. That anime easily makes it into the S-tier for me.

(not directed at your comment), but oddly enough, if I were "full sexist", it would be on the other end, since I love female opera singers with full, Russian babushka-style chest voices, female business magnates, and badass criminal/warrior women (for example, my favorite movie of all time is Kill Bill, absolutely legendary). if anything, I've only developed and appreciation for women with more traditionally "feminine" energy as I've gotten older.


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## MAS (Apr 15, 2015)

Seattleoperafan said:


> You want men to sound like men. He has a big voice but it has a brilliant, teen boy brightness to it. I really love this but it is way too young sounding for you. One more of my Xmas offerings will definitely not be for you LOL. I'll try to remember to warn you LOL


If you want tenors to sound like « Men » listen to Franco Corelli, the manliest tenor around, warts and all!


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

MAS said:


> If you want tenors to sound like « Men » listen to Franco Corelli, the manliest tenor around, warts and all!


Nah. Too much slinky slithering between notes. Real men hit them head on, and don't gargle, lisp or sob. And speaking of real men, the idea that they don't eat quiche is a misconception. They merely pronounce it "kwitchee."


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

MAS said:


> If you want tenors to sound like « Men » listen to Franco Corelli, the manliest tenor around, warts and all!


You'll get no argument from me!


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## MAS (Apr 15, 2015)

Woodduck said:


> Nah. Too much slinky slithering between notes. Real men hit them head on, and don't gargle, lisp or sob


Them are the warts… they come with that amazing voice.


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## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

nina foresti said:


> You'll get no argument from me!


nor from me. one of the best versions of this piece (and, tbh, most of what he touches)


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## vivalagentenuova (Jun 11, 2019)

Easy win for Bjorling. I go back and forth on Bjorling's voice, but he was a great singer, no doubt. His rendition is passionate and moving. I don't love Thill's uptempo version, though his voice is glorious. Pol Plancon recorded two excellent versions, although they are more reverent and less passionate. Sutherland and Norman are not singers I usually enjoy, and they aren't helped by the fact that I just don't like this song for female voice.


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## adriesba (Dec 30, 2019)

Björling! :angel: It's not even close for me. One of the best performances the carol ever!

I'd put Sutherland second. Her voice is beautiful, but I don't really get much emotional response from her singing here.

As for Norman, I'm with Tsaras. I just don't like the arrangement. Personally, I find it just incredibly overthought and underwhelming. It doesn't do her voice justice.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

adriesba said:


> Björling! :angel: It's not even close for me. One of the best performances the carol ever!
> 
> I'd put Sutherland second. Her voice is beautiful, but I don't really get much emotional response from her singing here.
> 
> As for Norman, I'm with Tsaras. I just don't like the arrangement. Personally, I find it just incredibly overthought and underwhelming. It doesn't do her voice justice.


You can't tell from the audio only but Jessye Norman's performance was from Notre Dame, one of the biggest cathedrals in the world with an enormous choir, so I think they went for BIG. I think it works better as part of the whole connected program.


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## MAS (Apr 15, 2015)

Seattleoperafan said:


> You can't tell from the audio only but Jessye Norman's performance was from Notre Dame, one of the biggest cathedrals in the world with an enormous choir, so I think they went for BIG. I think it works better as part of the whole connected program.


It was certainly over the top for all involved.


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

Well, this was a surprise. The only version I knew was the Sutherland and whilst her Christmas album is one of the first to go on every year in my house, I find her placement and diction too 'operatic' for it to be a truly great opera singer Christmas album. Whilst I understand the almost universal praise for the Bjorling recording and his voice is wonderfully naturally beautiful. However, he sounds completely bored here and I can't enjoy this piece in Swedish. Therefore, he's out. Norman sounds so over the top, that Sutherland's diction comes across as as clean and pure as possible.

It's the Sutherland by a process of elimination.

N.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

The Conte said:


> Well, this was a surprise. The only version I knew was the Sutherland and whilst her Christmas album is one of the first to go on every year in my house, I find her placement and diction too 'operatic' for it to be a truly great opera singer Christmas album. Whilst I understand the almost universal praise for the Bjorling recording and his voice is wonderfully naturally beautiful. However, he sounds completely bored here and I can't enjoy this piece in Swedish. Therefore, he's out. Norman sounds so over the top, that Sutherland's diction comes across as as clean and pure as possible.
> 
> It's the Sutherland by a process of elimination.
> 
> N.


I hadn't bothered to listen to the whole of either Norman's or Sutherland's recordings; a little of each was enough to make up my mind (which, given Bjorling's perfection, was unlikely to be changed in any event). Well, I've just subjected myself to both ladies entire, and can report that I have no idea what sort of music Norman was singing or what story Sutherland was telling. Not knowing in advance any of the words to the second verse, I still don't know them, though I might have detected "king of kings," emerging forlorn like a lone pea discovered in the mashed potatoes.

I'm surprised that you can't enjoy the piece sung in Swedish, yet can tolerate it sung in Ghcwaorqwunghwsmfwian.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Woodduck said:


> I hadn't bothered to listen to the whole of either Norman's or Sutherland's recordings; a little of each was enough to make up my mind (which, given Bjorling's perfection, was unlikely to be changed in any event). Well, I've just subjected myself to both ladies entire, and can repoert that I have no idea what sort of music Norman was singing or what story Sutherland was telling. Not knowing in advance any of the words to the second verse, I still don't know them, though I might have detected "king of kings," emerging forlorn like a lone pea discovered in the mashed potatoes.
> 
> I'm surprised that you can't enjoy the piece sung in Swedish, yet can tolerate it sung in Ghcwaorqwunghwsmfwian.


Mostly from my experience English is a foreign language when sung by most sopranos. LOL Practically all opera is an 
undecipherable foreign language to me by and large LOL That is why I am practically the only Sutherland fan on this forum;-)


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Seattleoperafan said:


> Mostly from my experience English is a foreign language when sung by most sopranos. LOL Practically all opera is an
> undecipherable foreign language to me by and large LOL That is why I am practically the only Sutherland fan on this forum;-)


It's true that verbal distinctness is more difficult to achieve for sopranos in their upper range. It isn't always entirely their fault. Composers should take this into account if they want their texts to come across.

Of course Sutherland is something else again. Probably her least problematic rendering of a text is heard in Gliere's Concerto for Coloratura Soprano.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Woodduck said:


> It's true that verbal distinctness is more difficult to achieve for sopranos in their upper range. It isn't always entirely their fault. Composers should take this into account if they want their texts to come across.
> 
> Of course Sutherland is something else again. Probably her least problematic rendering of a text is heard in Gliere's Concerto for Coloratura Soprano.


You're just mean LOL


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Woodduck said:


> It's true that verbal distinctness is more difficult to achieve for sopranos in their upper range. It isn't always entirely their fault. Composers should take this into account if they want their texts to come across.
> 
> Of course Sutherland is something else again. Probably her least problematic rendering of a text is heard in Gliere's Concerto for Coloratura Soprano.


That said, we've just been listening to various sopranos singing Boito's _L'altra notte_ and both De Los Angeles and Callas sing very clear, easily understandable Italian.

Not so long ago I was listening to Britten's own recording of *The Turn of the Screw* (recorded, I think, in 1954). It struck me how clear and natural the diction was of all the singers, including the sopranos Jennifer Vyvyan and Joan Cross.


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

Woodduck said:


> I'm surprised that you can't enjoy the piece sung in Swedish, yet can tolerate it sung in Ghcwaorqwunghwsmfwian.


You are completely right about Sutherland. However, there are exceptions to this rule that her diction was poor. Her very first recordings and live performances before 1961 reveal much clearer vowels and articulation than crept in shortly after and worsened over the years. I was surprised that I could understand so much of her O Holy Night which was, of course, recorded after that 1961 watershed. Relatively speaking it's good diction for her.

N.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

The Conte said:


> You are completely right about Sutherland. However, there are exceptions to this rule that her diction was poor. Her very first recordings and live performances before 1961 reveal much clearer vowels and articulation than crept in shortly after and worsened over the years. I was surprised that I could understand so much of her O Holy Night which was, of course, recorded after that 1961 watershed. Relatively speaking it's good diction for her.
> 
> N.


You made out far more than I did then. Once past the first few measures, the words of which I knew anyway, I really couldn't make out a single word. I remember once playing her singing _It came upon the midnight clear_ from the same disc, and my partner, not an opera buff, asking me quite innocently, "What language is she singing in?" He couldn't believe it was meant to be English!


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## dave2708 (Sep 28, 2020)

Opera singers with big voices always sound out of place when they do stuff other than opera etc. They find it hard to adjust their sound/technique to suit the music. It's usually overblown and over enunciated.
I prefer a lighter voice for music like this. 
Something like a Kathleen battle.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

I boldly spell foreign names/ words badly and against received wisdom put Sutherland before this crowd in a vocal contest :devil: Still, 25% of the voters preferred her over the inimitable Swede, so I guess it wasn't a complete wash out LOL. I'm curious what you will make of my next Xmas offering, which will not be the tried and true, but should be beautiful.


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

Tsaraslondon said:


> That said, we've just been listening to various sopranos singing Boito's _L'altra notte_ and both De Los Angeles and Callas sing very clear, easily understandable Italian.
> 
> Not so long ago I was listening to Britten's own recording of *The Turn of the Screw* (recorded, I think, in 1954). It struck me how clear and natural the diction was of all the singers, including the sopranos Jennifer Vyvyan and Joan Cross.


I simply must add Olivero's clear enunciation as well.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

nina foresti said:


> I simply must add Olivero's clear enunciation as well.


True indeed. I just find her performance a little too melodramatic _for my taste_.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

dave2708 said:


> Opera singers with big voices always sound out of place when they do stuff other than opera etc. They find it hard to adjust their sound/technique to suit the music. It's usually overblown and over enunciated.
> I prefer a lighter voice for music like this.
> Something like a Kathleen battle.


Battle is perfectly lovely in this. From all reports her voice was considerably more endearing than she was!  I do think, though, that this particular carol, written in 1847 by opera composer Adolphe Adam, is actually operatic in style and doesn't suffer - and at its climax even benefits - from a bigger, more dramatic sound. Everybody wants to sing and record it, but few non-operatic voices can do it full justice.

In general, I see nothing about a fully trained voice that should prevent a singer from taking on successfully Christmas carols, simple hymns, or popular songs of certain kinds. In earlier times, before the term "crossover" was invented, opera singers quite routinely programmed and recorded non-operatic songs to excellent effect - Helen Traubel comes to mind - and a popular singer like Jane Froman could bring a classically trained contralto to popular songs with gorgeous results. In the cases of Norman and Sutherland it isn't their voices as such that bother me but rather, respectively, a weird and overwrought arrangement and an absence of distinguishable words.

I think the present notion of "operatic" singing is colored by the kind of pushed, overweighted, vibrato-ridden sounds we're offered far too much of by supposedly major operatic artists today. I don't enjoy those sounds in Christmas carols, popular songs, or opera itself.


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## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

Woodduck said:


> Battle is perfectly lovely in this. From all reports her voice was considerably more endearing than she was!  I do think, though, that this particular carol, written in 1847 by opera composer Adolphe Adam, is actually operatic in style and doesn't suffer - and at its climax even benefits - from a bigger, more dramatic sound. Everybody wants to sing and record it, but few non-operatic voices can do it full justice.
> 
> *In general, I see nothing about a fully trained voice that should prevent a singer from taking on successfully Christmas carols, simple hymns, or popular songs of certain kinds. In earlier times, before the term "crossover" was invented, opera singers quite routinely programmed and recorded non-operatic songs to excellent effect - Helen Traubel comes to mind - and a popular singer like Jane Froman could bring a classically trained contralto to popular songs with gorgeous results.* In the cases of Norman and Sutherland it isn't their voices as such that bother me but rather, respectively, a weird and overwrought arrangement and an absence of distinguishable words.
> 
> I think the present notion of "operatic" singing is colored by the kind of pushed, overweighted, vibrato-ridden sounds we're offered far too much of by supposedly major operatic artists today. I don't enjoy those sounds in Christmas carols, popular songs, or opera itself.


This. Good singers across all styles have more in common than most people believe. We tend to like older style singing voices because their voices sounded more...normal. The mechanism isn't really all that different and doesn't require the degree of unnatural manufacturing that is currently in vogue.


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## dave2708 (Sep 28, 2020)

Listen to Carreras doing West Wide Story. It was a total disaster.


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## MAS (Apr 15, 2015)

dave2708 said:


> Listen to Carreras doing West Wide Story. It was a total disaster.


It is a result of total miscasting, and not because of his singing.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

MAS said:


> It is a result of total miscasting, and not because of his singing.


Doesn't that recording present the oddity of a Tony with a Spanish accent and a Maria without one?


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## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

BalalaikaBoy said:


> This. Good singers across all styles have more in common than most people believe. We tend to like older style singing voices because their voices sounded more...normal. The mechanism isn't really all that different and doesn't require the degree of unnatural manufacturing that is currently in vogue.


ex: Plenty of musical theatre singers from the Golden Age are indistinguishable from opera singers, and other popular singers like Deana Durbin went on sing operatic music (not sure if she ever did any complete roles, but she has performed several arias) without much difficulty. The biggest three differences I see between good operatic singing vs good musical theatre/popular singing from the first half of the 20th century are 
1) opera tends to sit a bit higher and push the voice to greater extremes
2) slightly lower larynx when singing 
3) less falsetto in men, more connected chest and head voice in women (though not nearly to the degree that people think. They were connected, but still distinct, rather than in the modern era where the goal seems to be to produce a uniform color regardless of where singer is sitting in her range)

Other than that, sure, there are different languages and maybe a few more vocal runs, but it was basically the same.


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## dave2708 (Sep 28, 2020)

MAS said:


> It is a result of total miscasting, and not because of his singing.


His singing was by and large awful and his top notes excruciating. He was like a bull in a china shop.
His "Maria" is the stuff of Halloween.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

It isn't surprising that successful "crossover" is so uncommon now, given that most popular music has become completely unlike operatic music. There are probably more singers at both ends of the spectrum who could do it if they wanted to, but there's not much call for it. A century ago people were eager to hear their favorite opera singers do popular songs, which were written in a style that could actually be enhanced by a well-developed voice. Everyone, not just operaphiles, had Caruso records and listened to radio programs featuring great singers of the age. How about Caruso's killer contribution (pardon the pun) to WW I?






And on a gentler note, this masterpiece of vocalism and interpretation (and, praise be, diction):


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## annaw (May 4, 2019)

Björling for me, no contest  ! I cherish that recording with my whole heart. Battle also sounds very sweet in that above-mentioned recording.


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## MAS (Apr 15, 2015)

Woodduck said:


> Doesn't that recording present the oddity of a Tony with a Spanish accent and a Maria without one?


Exactly - who was the casting agent?


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

MAS said:


> Exactly - who was the casting agent?


My question is: what was Lennie thinking?


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## dave2708 (Sep 28, 2020)

The other issue is opera singers cover and modify their vowels to produce a focused and consistent tone.
When they attempt pop or musical genres they bring that with them with the consequence of producing a vocal Sutherland type mush to the text.
The musical and pop idioms dictate some vowel spreading to make it sound more natural.
Battle does that in her O' holy Night quite a bit(except for the high bits)
It doesn't become something sounding like 
"Or Horly Narght, the brortly larghts or Shorning etc. Yes, I am exaggerating a little but you get my drift.


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## Guest (Dec 6, 2021)

Woodduck said:


> My question is: what was Lennie thinking?


I think we can all guess!!


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## Guest (Dec 6, 2021)

Jussi Bjorling for me, every single time. What a voice, but a tragic human being who drank himself to death. What a scourge alcoholism is!!!

I used to like Jessye Norman but went off her voice some time ago, finding that it often simply overwhelmed the music and the words. In short, it was completely over the top. "Four Last Songs" is a case in point; I prefer Renee Fleming or Lucia Popp.

As for Joan Sutherland; the less said the better.


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## dave2708 (Sep 28, 2020)

The thing with Sutherland was the middle was mush but no-one could touch her at the top. No-one.


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## Guest (Dec 6, 2021)

dave2708 said:


> The thing with Sutherland was the middle was mush but no-one could touch her at the top. No-one.


I remember once going to the Sydney Opera House with a bus-load of Italians; we came from Newcastle. Joan Carden was performing. They adored opera and sang in the bus all the way up the M1 - but none of them could stand La Stupenda!! You just couldn't hear a word she was singing and it left the question: "what was the point of HAVING words"? A remarkable tessitura/coloratura on its own just isn't enough, IMO.


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## Guest (Dec 6, 2021)

Incidentally, when living in Vienna I used to shop at Gramola in The Graben and they all knew and loved Joan Carden there!!


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## dave2708 (Sep 28, 2020)

Christabel said:


> - but none of them could stand La Stupenda!! You just couldn't hear a word she was singing and it left the question: "what was the point of HAVING words"? A remarkable tessitura/coloratura on its own just isn't enough, IMO.


An uncomfortable truth but the vast majority of opera goers/ listeners haven't got a clue what they are singing about and whether their pronunciation is correct or not. Granted speakers of the language will pick it up, but the English speaking world, for example, are clueless to all that. For them it's a matter of it sounding good. They just read the subs for what it's all about. People on this board are not really representative of the wider opera goer in general.
Sutherland & Callas sang a lot of the same repertoire and Joan will always be despised on a board like this which is crawling with Callas groupies who won't truck any alternative-as we know:lol:.


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## Guest (Dec 6, 2021)

dave2708 said:


> An uncomfortable truth but the vast majority of opera goers/ listeners haven't got a clue what they are singing about and whether their pronunciation is correct or not. Granted speakers of the language will pick it up, but the English speaking world, for example, are clueless to all that. For them it's a matter of it sounding good. They just read the subs for what it's all about. People on this board are not really representative of the wider opera goer in general.
> Sutherland & Callas sang a lot of the same repertoire and Joan will always be despised on a board like this which is crawling with Callas groupies who won't truck any alternative-as we know:lol:.


I didn't know!! All I know is what I like and Sutherland is a world away from my preferred opera, Baroque, anyway. But if there is the semblance of an attempt to pronounce the words it does justice. Just watch this! Absolute magic (yes, I know, it's deviating from the title of this thread): *14:30* here. Yes, you need surtitles but you can hear what she's singing - admittedly contralto.






I hear your words, ladies and gentlemen!! Absolutely exquisite:


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## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

dave2708 said:


> The thing with Sutherland was the middle was mush but no-one could touch her at the top. No-one.


It was decent until the early 60s, and more than decent in the pre-Bonynge era when she was training as dramatic soprano.


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## dave2708 (Sep 28, 2020)

Sutherland & Bonynge always admitted they would sacrifice diction for beauty of sound-to their ears.


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## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

dave2708 said:


> Sutherland & Bonynge always admitted they would sacrifice diction for beauty of sound-to their ears.


Admittedly, I will take bad diction with good legato over the reverse any day of the week, but what they never realized is that, if you genuinely have good diction, it _improves_ the vocal line rather than detracting from it


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## Guest (Dec 6, 2021)

dave2708 said:


> Sutherland & Bonynge always admitted they would sacrifice diction for beauty of sound-to their ears.


Joan had a good face for radio!!!


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Christabel said:


> Joan had a good face for radio!!!


I am absolutely the only Sutherland queen on this forum and I thought she could look very grand onstage and I could give a flying frank about her diction as I understand no foreign languages, I just revel in what I think is her glorious sound. All alone here but millions over the world agree with me LOL. She was hugely popular when she was alive by fans all over the world for many decades. I am a definite step down from the standards of my co- patriots here LOL. Most agree with all the opinions expressed in this thread.


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## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

Seattleoperafan said:


> *I am absolutely the only Sutherland queen on this forum* and I thought she could look very grand onstage and I could give a flying frank about her diction as I understand no foreign languages, I just revel in what I think is her glorious sound. All alone here but millions over the world agree with me LOL. She was hugely popular when she was alive by fans all over the world for many decades. I am a definite step down from the standards of my co- patriots here LOL. Most agree with all the opinions expressed in this thread.


...no
#15characters


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

BalalaikaBoy said:


> ...no
> #15characters


May Santa be good to you


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## Rogerx (Apr 27, 2018)

Seattleoperafan said:


> I am absolutely the only Sutherland queen on this forum and I thought she could look very grand onstage and I could give a flying frank about her diction as I understand no foreign languages, I just revel in what I think is her glorious sound. All alone here but millions over the world agree with me LOL. She was hugely popular when she was alive by fans all over the world for many decades. I am a definite step down from the standards of my co- patriots here LOL. Most agree with all the opinions expressed in this thread.


You are never alone when you love Joan, she wasn't called : la Stupenda for nothing. :angel:


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## dave2708 (Sep 28, 2020)

Seattleoperafan said:


> I am absolutely the only Sutherland queen on this forum.


You do find people follow the pack and jump on bandwagons on what seems like the opera hoi polloi consensus.
Joan had her flaws like all singers, but her success proves the public said otherwise.
Try as they may, they can't take that away from her.
I actually prefer her earlier recordings which of course i am TOLD are not good because of her diction, mooning interpretive skills etc.
Like I said, opera lovers in general don't have a clue whether she is singing Una Paloma Blanca or saying Knees Up Mother Brown in Norma. They hear a voice they like and it pretty much stops there. Opera glasses may hit the floor and smelling salts may come out for that, but it's the reality of what the public hear in general.
Whatever gets you in the opera house to appreciate and love the art is just fine. Be it you just love the sound of someone's voice or you happen to know on what day Bellini wrote bars 32 &33 of Casta Diva.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

dave2708 said:


> You do find people follow the pack and jump on bandwagons on what seems like the opera hoi polloi consensus.
> Joan had her flaws like all singers, but her success proves the public said otherwise.
> Try as they may, they can't take that away from her.
> I actually prefer her earlier recordings which of course i am TOLD are not good because of her diction, mooning interpretive skills etc.
> ...


I think at the Met or San Francisco you have such a sophisticated crowd that a lot of an audience there could understand the language being sung. Here in the backwaters of Seattle, I think supra titles were heavily relied upon LOL. Here on this Forum I think a surprisingly high number of our membership do understand a lot of the languages sung by the artists. I found this to be the case in a thread on the subject I created a few years back. It colors their expectations of the artists accordingly.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

dave2708 said:


> I actually prefer her earlier recordings which of course I am TOLD are not good because of her diction, mooning interpretive skills etc.


Who told you that? It's actually the reverse that's true; Sutherland's early recordings (up to about 1961, I gather from those who've followed these things more closely than I) exhibit diction that's frequently comprehensible, along with a clearer, brighter vocal quality and fewer mannerisms of style. Some who don't care for her do enjoy some of those early recordings, including the recital "The Art of the Prima Donna" through which many of us were introduced to her.


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## Guest (Dec 6, 2021)

Seattleoperafan said:


> I am absolutely the only Sutherland queen on this forum and I thought she could look very grand onstage and I could give a flying frank about her diction as I understand no foreign languages, I just revel in what I think is her glorious sound. All alone here but millions over the world agree with me LOL. She was hugely popular when she was alive by fans all over the world for many decades. I am a definite step down from the standards of my co- patriots here LOL. Most agree with all the opinions expressed in this thread.


Nobody is suggesting you are wrong or are not entitled to your opinion, but please allow others to have theirs. I thought she was cold, humourless and haughty and an opera grand dame in the Nellie Melba mould. For me this schtick is all so yesterday. I worked in broadcasting and one of my colleagues wrote a book about her and produced a TV documentary just before they (Dickie & Joan) went to live in Switzerland. She had a pure sound and there's no doubt about that - but so has a flute and she had little more articulation than that instrument.


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## dave2708 (Sep 28, 2020)

Most always seem to recommend her second recordings of her main repertoire. They complain of her early diction,the 'mooning' and lack of interpretative skills but think she improved in those departments with recording a decade later. The top certainly wasn't as good but most reviews always went for the second attempts for their perceived improvements in the other aspects. At least in my reading.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Christabel said:


> Nobody is suggesting you are wrong or are not entitled to your opinion, but please allow others to have theirs. I thought she was cold, humourless and haughty and an opera grand dame in the Nellie Melba mould. For me this schtick is all so yesterday. I worked in broadcasting and one of my colleagues wrote a book about her and produced a TV documentary just before they (Dickie & Joan) went to live in Switzerland. She had a pure sound and there's no doubt about that - but so has a flute and she had little more articulation than that instrument.


Please elucidate to me where I in anyway invalidated the opinion of the majority in this forum who don't care for Sutherland. I was talking only of myself. We all come to this art form with our own backgrounds and things we look for. I was just stating my personal opinion of her. Are you threatened because I stated an opinion that counters yours? I find the majority of the people who post here dislike her except for possibly her very early work. It hasn't changed my mind and I still like them.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

dave2708 said:


> Most always seem to recommend her second recordings of her main repertoire. The complain of her early diction,the 'mooning' and lack of interpretative skills but think she improved in those departments with recording a decade later. The top certainly wasn't as good but most reviews always went for the second attempts for their perceived improvements in the other aspects. At least in my reading.


I can't argue with your sources, but I think everyone here will concur with what I said. Listen to this early live performance and hear shockingly clear vowels and consonants in an identifiable language:






Such singing completely invalidates the nonsensical idea that she had to sacrifice clarity of diction for the sake of legato. That mad scene is superb in every way: La Stupenda indeed! If she had gone on singing like that I'd be a fan.


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## Guest (Dec 6, 2021)

Seattleoperafan said:


> Please elucidate to me where I in anyway invalidated the opinion of the majority in this forum who don't care for Sutherland. I was talking only of myself. We all come to this art form with our own backgrounds and things we look for. I was just stating my personal opinion of her. Are you threatened because I stated an opinion that counters yours? I find the majority of the people who post here dislike her except for possibly her very early work. It hasn't changed my mind and I still like them.


It seems I misunderstood what you wrote. Apologies. And I'm never threatened by contrary opinion, being too old and ugly for all that.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Christabel said:


> It seems I misunderstood what you wrote. Apologies. And I'm never threatened by contrary opinion, being too old and ugly for all that.


I thought so. Merry Christmas!


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## Guest (Dec 6, 2021)

Woodduck said:


> I can't argue with your sources, but I think everyone here will concur with what I said. Listen to this early live performance and hear shockingly clear vowels and consonants in an identifiable language:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I actually preferred Callas, thinking her a fine dramatic soprano and I absolutely believed every role she played. Some said her voice was muddy but the emotion and intensity was just incredible.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Christabel said:


> I actually preferred Callas, thinking her a fine dramatic soprano and I absolutely believed every role she played. Some said her voice was muddy but the emotion and intensity was just incredible.


You'll get no argument from me, or from many others here. But as one who appreciates the unique art of Callas in depth, it does please me to find work by the young Sutherland that evinces a dramatic potential I don't think she realized.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Woodduck said:


> I can't argue with your sources, but I think everyone here will concur with what I said. Listen to this early live performance and hear shockingly clear vowels and consonants in an identifiable language:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I've been looking at a few recording dates and it would seem that the poor diction and droopy manner set in quite soon. Her diction on the live broadcast of *Lucia di Lammermoor* from Covent Garden in 1959, which was conducted by Serafin and in which she had a spectacular success, is absolutely fine. So it is on the Giulini *Don Giovanni* for EMI and on her first recital on which she sings the arias from *Lucia di Lammermoor*, recorded in Paris under Nello Santi, both of which were also recorded in 1959. _The Art of the Prima Donna_ was recorded in London in 1960. This time the conductor is Francisco Molinari-Pradelli. Is is pure coincidence that the conductors in all these vetures were Italian?

Her first two complete recordings of *Lucia di Lammermoor* and *La Traviata* were conducted by John Pritchard and recorded in 1961 and 1962. She also recorded her first Gilda in 1961, but under Nino Sanzogno and already the moony manner has started to creep in. Her diction on all these recordings is really poor and the mooning manner and droopy portamenti have started to rob her singing of energy and attack.

It seems she did take the criticisms on board and by the time she re-recorded these operas, her diction has indeed improved, athough she never quite returned to the bright, forwardly placed tone and clear diction of 1959/early 1960. How much Bonynge, who conducted almost all her recordings after this, had to do with the shift in her vocal production, is perhaps a moot point. Conicidentally her best recording from a diction and clarity point of view after this was *Turandot*, which was conducted by Zubin Mehta.

Personally, aside from that *Turandot*, I tend to avoid anything recorded after _The Art of the Prima Donna_, as I find the lack of words just plain irritating. I do not speak fluent Italian and my French is decidedly rusty, but I like to follow along with the libretto, and even with the libretto in front of me, I find it pretty impossible to equate the sounds coming out of my speakers when Joanie is singing with what I see on the printed page, and I frequently get lost completely while she is singing. For me, the beauty and security of her top register is not enough compensation.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

BalalaikaBoy said:


> Admittedly, I will take bad diction with good legato over the reverse any day of the week, but what they never realized is that, if you genuinely have good diction, it _improves_ the vocal line rather than detracting from it


That is a very good point. I often take Puccini's _Senza mamma_ as an example. Listen to the opening lines as sung by Tebaldi, Scotto, Callas, De Los Angeles or Freni and then listen to Sutherland. Sutherland's diction is better here than it sometimes was, but it is nowhere near as clear as any of the other ladies. They all also have a much better legato line. Words do not have to get in the way of legato.


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## dave2708 (Sep 28, 2020)

I picked up Sutherland's early Sonnambula & Traviata the other day for $10 each(critics say get the second one's). Will give them both a spin to revel in lots of oo, ah,oh, eh and the odd consonant. I don't mind.:tiphat:


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

dave2708 said:


> I picked up Sutherland's early Sonnambula & Traviata the other day for $10 each(critics say get the second one's). Will give them both a spin to revel in lots of oo, ah,oh, eh and the odd consonant. I don't mind.:tiphat:


What?! You found FOUR vowels???!!!


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

I read where Bonynge wanted Sutherland to get away from a more forward focused sound in order to prolong her career. She did end up having a very successful career up until her early 60's. I like the less forward placement but I am in a Very small minority here with that opinion I think. Of course Gruberova also sang a long time as did Roberta Peters. I think bel canto singing sort of forces you to keep on your toes with regard to technique which can help prolong a career.


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

Some thoughts about Sutherland from me:

When it comes to early vs late Sutherland, there are actually three phases to her voice. The very early (pre 1961), the early (60s to mid/late 70s) and the late. I think there are great moments from all three phases, but there are pros and cons across all three. Her very early period shows her at her best from a technical point of view without the diction issues that entered the voice later on. Unfortunately there are very few studio recordings from that period, but there are excellent live recordings of Lucia, Puritani and Sonnambula, which I prefer to her early studio recordings of those roles. The early period features her 'mooning', occasional droopy phrasing and unclear diction, but her voice is still fresh and many of the recordings she made in that period are gems IMO. Both her studio Lucias, Puritanis and Rigolettos come from this period, it's just that the later sets have better accompanying casts.

I think the main reason many would recommend her second Sonnambula and Traviata are due to the presence of Pavarotti in those sets (although her first Norma is usually praised over the second version with Pavarotti and Caballe).

Sutherland's later period recordings are hit and miss, her diction has worsened further by then, the mooning has become crooning and her voice was showing signs of wear and tear (as happens with most singers by the end of their careers). Anna Bolena and Ernani (not a role I think she suited in the first place) were recorded far too late, but I am a huge fan of her second Norma as she acts her socks off and her voice blends superbly with Caballe's in the duets. 

I normally prefer Callas and/or Caballe in the roles they had in common, but Sutherland is often unbeatable in parts they didn't perform.

I will make just one final observation and that is that there are only two sopranos I like as Gilda, one is Callas, the other is Sutherland. I guess that makes me a fan of "Joany".

N.


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## MAS (Apr 15, 2015)

Seattleoperafan said:


> I read where Bonynge wanted Sutherland to get away from a more forward focused sound in order to prolong her career. She did end up having a very successful career up until her early 60's. I like the less forward placement but I am in a Very small minority here with that opinion I think. Of course Gruberova also sang a long time as did Roberta Peters. I think bel canto singing sort of forces you to keep on your toes with regard to technique which can help prolong a career.


The other _bel canto_ singer who retained her admirable voice and high E-flats was Mariella Devia.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

The Conte said:


> Some thoughts about Sutherland from me:
> 
> When it comes to early vs late Sutherland, there are actually three phases to her voice. The very early (pre 1961), the early (60s to mid/late 70s) and the late. I think there are great moments from all three phases, but there are pros and cons across all three. Her very early period shows her at her best from a technical point of view without the diction issues that entered the voice later on. Unfortunately there are very few studio recordings from that period, but there are excellent live recordings of Lucia, Puritani and Sonnambula, which I prefer to her early studio recordings of those roles. The early period features her 'mooning', occasional droopy phrasing and unclear diction, but her voice is still fresh and many of the recordings she made in that period are gems IMO. Both her studio Lucias, Puritanis and Rigolettos come from this period, it's just that the later sets have better accompanying casts.
> 
> ...


Can you feel a brotherly hug from Seattle! In her Norma video from Australia about the time of her second recording she really had come into her on as far as acting the part. Sparks came off of her in the trio. I suspect she gained more confidence in acting as she gained more acclaim over the years. I don't think she was instinctive like Callas, but she worked hard at her craft over the years.


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## Revitalized Classics (Oct 31, 2018)

The Conte said:


> Some thoughts about Sutherland from me:
> 
> When it comes to early vs late Sutherland, there are actually three phases to her voice. The very early (pre 1961), the early (60s to mid/late 70s) and the late. I think there are great moments from all three phases, but there are pros and cons across all three. Her very early period shows her at her best from a technical point of view without the diction issues that entered the voice later on. Unfortunately there are very few studio recordings from that period, but there are excellent live recordings of Lucia, Puritani and Sonnambula, which I prefer to her early studio recordings of those roles. The early period features her 'mooning', occasional droopy phrasing and unclear diction, but her voice is still fresh and many of the recordings she made in that period are gems IMO. Both her studio Lucias, Puritanis and Rigolettos come from this period, it's just that the later sets have better accompanying casts.
> 
> ...


Thanks for sharing these ideas. You got me thinking, so I checked through their discographies and to elaborate a little, those operas that Sutherland recorded complete and that Callas or Caballe didn't, includes, I think:

Don Giovanni (Donna Anna)
Alcina
Carmen (Micaëla)
Beatrice di Tenda
La Fille du Regiment
Lakmé
L'Elisir d'amore
Les Huguenots
Tales of Hoffmann
Esclarmonde
L'Oracolo
Suor Angelica
La Roi de Lahore
Hamlet
Rodelinda

I thought I'd share since I was surprised at how many of these I had forgotten!

Ditto for overlapping repertoire w. Callas and/or Caballe which would include Lucrezia Borgia, Traviata, Semiramide, Turandot, Norma, I Masnadieri, Faust, Lucia di Lammermoor, I Puritani, Rigoletto, Trovatore, Sonnambula, Maria Stuarda, Ernani, Adriana Lecouvreur.

In these overlapping operas, Callas would be my pick for Norma, Traviata, Puritani and Trovatore.

Regarding Caballe, I would pick her for Lucrezia Borgia, Maria Stuarda, Ernani and Adriana Lecouvreur.

I'd still choose Sutherland for Semiramide, Turandot, I Masnadieri, Faust, Lucia, Rigoletto, Sonnambula.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

The Conte said:


> Some thoughts about Sutherland from me:
> 
> When it comes to early vs late Sutherland, there are actually three phases to her voice. The very early (pre 1961), the early (60s to mid/late 70s) and the late. I think there are great moments from all three phases, but there are pros and cons across all three. Her very early period shows her at her best from a technical point of view without the diction issues that entered the voice later on. Unfortunately there are very few studio recordings from that period, but there are excellent live recordings of Lucia, Puritani and Sonnambula, which I prefer to her early studio recordings of those roles. The early period features her 'mooning', occasional droopy phrasing and unclear diction, but her voice is still fresh and many of the recordings she made in that period are gems IMO. Both her studio Lucias, Puritanis and Rigolettos come from this period, it's just that the later sets have better accompanying casts.
> 
> ...


Three periods, eh? She has something in common with Beethoven, then.

Don't think too hard about it.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Revitalized Classics said:


> Thanks for sharing these ideas. You got me thinking, so I checked through their discographies and to elaborate a little, those operas that Sutherland recorded complete and that Callas or Caballe didn't, includes, I think:
> 
> Don Giovanni (Donna Anna)
> Alcina
> ...


Looking through your list of operas that Callas and Caballé didn't record, I realise I only have three of them (the Giulini *Don Giovanni*, *La Fille du Régiment* and *Les contes d'Hoffmann*). The others either don't interest me or I went for alternative recordings (Mesplé in *Lakmé*, Cotrubas in *L'Elisir d'Amore* and De Los Angeles, Scotto and Ricciarelli in *Suor Angelica*). Nor do I have any of the recordings in your final list except *Turandot* (I also have Callas). The only one I'd be tempted to add to my collection is *Semiramide*, but I don't like the opera that much and already have the Naxos recording, which is complete and in the correct keys. I'm quite happy with Caballé in *I Masnadieri*, De Los Angeles et al in *Faust*, and Callas in *Lucia*, *Rigoletto* (the Serafin often considered as much a classic as the De Sabata *Tosca*) and *La Sonnambula*.


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## Guest (Dec 8, 2021)

The Conte said:


> Some thoughts about Sutherland from me:
> 
> When it comes to early vs late Sutherland, there are actually three phases to her voice. The very early (pre 1961), the early (60s to mid/late 70s) and the late. I think there are great moments from all three phases, but there are pros and cons across all three. Her very early period shows her at her best from a technical point of view without the diction issues that entered the voice later on. Unfortunately there are very few studio recordings from that period, but there are excellent live recordings of Lucia, Puritani and Sonnambula, which I prefer to her early studio recordings of those roles. The early period features her 'mooning', occasional droopy phrasing and unclear diction, but her voice is still fresh and many of the recordings she made in that period are gems IMO. Both her studio Lucias, Puritanis and Rigolettos come from this period, it's just that the later sets have better accompanying casts.
> 
> ...


I don't understand the term 'mooning'.


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## Guest (Dec 8, 2021)

Seattleoperafan said:


> I read where Bonynge wanted Sutherland to get away from a more forward focused sound in order to prolong her career. She did end up having a very successful career up until her early 60's. I like the less forward placement but I am in a Very small minority here with that opinion I think. Of course Gruberova also sang a long time as did Roberta Peters. I think bel canto singing sort of forces you to keep on your toes with regard to technique which can help prolong a career.


I have heard people say that actually Bonynge had a detrimental affect on her career; in fact, in a documentary made about Sutherland I'm pretty sure she alluded to that criticism - though I can't say specifically what it was. Only that he was forcing her voice in some way with a different technique. Does anybody else know about this?


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

Christabel said:


> I don't understand the term 'mooning'.


I used it because it was used upthread by a different commenter. I think it's pretty much the same as 'crooning'.

N.


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

Woodduck said:


> Three periods, eh? She has something in common with Beethoven, then.
> 
> Don't think too hard about it.


Had I wanted to think too hard about it, I would have tried to put the exact dates when her voice went from one stage to the next! Pretty much all singers have two to three periods in their career, sometimes they are clearly delineated (e.g. Callas pre and post 1946 - she even referred to them as the small career and the big career. Then Olivero had a break of about ten years in the middle of her career.) There's nothing special about Joan here other than her voice was remarkedly different pre 1961 for whatever reason. When I was first reading reviews of her recordings critics pointed out the loss of freshness in her voice in many of her later recordings (and by later Sutherland they meant the 80s). Whereas early Sutherland always meant the 60s. It's only on this forum that I have seen 'early Sutherland' to mean pre 1961. Therefore, to avoid confusion, it makes sense to clarify the exact period of her career we are talking about.

N.


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

The Conte said:


> I used it because it was used upthread by a different commenter. I think it's pretty much the same as 'crooning'.
> 
> N.


Hahaha! Not in my book, it isn't!


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

nina foresti said:


> Hahaha! Not in my book, it isn't!


The actual original use of the term in this thread was "mooning interpretive gifts". My bad! I wasn't trying to suggest that Sutherland was a naturist.

N.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

The Conte said:


> I used it because it was used upthread by a different commenter. I think it's pretty much the same as 'crooning'.
> 
> N.


I never thought mooning and crooning were the same thing. In fact I never thought much about either one, but crooning, in common usage, is what popular singers do, or did formerly, when they don't employ the full strength of their chest voices and so produce a soft-textured, easy sort of sound - Bing Crosby, Perry Como, Andy Williams, that sort of thing. Mooning? I'm not aware that the term has been applied to any singer other than Sutherland, who fell into a sort of drooping, sighing manner of phrasing, combined with verbal indistinctness, that robs music of intensity and suggests someone "moonstruck" or distracted or sleepy from too much wine.

Crooning is a singing technique. Mooning is a manner of musical articulation apparently unique to Joan Sutherland. I'll qualify that slightly by saying that Renee Fleming, endlessly resourceful as she is, manages to employ both crooning and mooning, and may even break down the distinction between them. Sometimes this miracle happens in the course of a single Bellini aria.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

The Conte said:


> Had I wanted to think too hard about it, I would have tried to put the exact dates when her voice went from one stage to the next! Pretty much all singers have two to three periods in their career, sometimes they are clearly delineated (e.g. Callas pre and post 1946 - she even referred to them as the small career and the big career. Then Olivero had a break of about ten years in the middle of her career.) There's nothing special about Joan here other than her voice was remarkedly different pre 1961 for whatever reason. When I was first reading reviews of her recordings critics pointed out the loss of freshness in her voice in many of her later recordings (and by later Sutherland they meant the 80s). Whereas early Sutherland always meant the 60s. It's only on this forum that I have seen 'early Sutherland' to mean pre 1961. Therefore, to avoid confusion, it makes sense to clarify the exact period of her career we are talking about.
> 
> N.


I think of "early Sutherland" as pre-1961 because it's the only part of her career in which I've fully enjoyed her singing.


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## JanacekTheGreat (Feb 26, 2021)

I just found this comparison which demonstrates the points many of you made:






To be honest, I don't find pre-1961 Sutherland that attractive either. The sounds might be purer but the vowels are still vague. Her Donna Anna in the Giulini's Don Giovanni may stand out as *her* best, but by no means the best of this role.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

JanacekTheGreat said:


> I just found this comparison which demonstrates the points many of you made:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Nevermind.Nevermind.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

JanacekTheGreat said:


> I just found this comparison which demonstrates the points many of you made:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Point taken, but the sound on those early examples is very distorted, which obscures the vowel sounds somewhat. I was struck by the audibility of the Italian in her 1959 live mad scene, quite comparable to what most sopranos would manage, I'd say.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

JanacekTheGreat said:


> I just found this comparison which demonstrates the points many of you made:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I should learn NEVER to put Sutherland in a contest here as she always gets crucified unless it is maybe the first 3 years out of a 30 year career LOL . I want to put her in the In Questa Reggia contest but I fear no good would come of it. At least my best friend loves listening to her with me but neither of us know the languages. Oh, well. I am glad my other stuff is being mostly well received.


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## Zorro1313 (1 mo ago)

dave2708 said:


> Opera singers with big voices always sound out of place when they do stuff other than opera etc. They find it hard to adjust their sound/technique to suit the music. It's usually overblown and over enunciated. I prefer a lighter voice for music like this. Something like a Kathleen battle.


 cant you just enjoy the music. Look at Mario Lanza's Christams music million play it and he doesnt sound out of place.Get a copy of An Old Met Christmas. or even those Firestone records of James McCraken etc.And when you hear Placido Domingo singing White Christmas w an accent too bad you d probably get upset on him but many love the accent. Did you ever hear Gigli sing Silent Night in English with the 2nd verse. Just leave Carreras alone Try to remember you are a listen not on the stage. What have you accomplished to make your fellow man's life more enriched ?Merry Christmas the Elf probaly has some charcoal for you.


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