# The I'm Addicted To Sibelius Thread



## Mirror Image (Apr 20, 2009)

ATTENTION SIBELIUS FANS​







Burr....it's cold out in them there hills. Warm up with some friendly conversations about Sibelius. Any experiences you would like to share? Any new purchases? This is the place to do it.

My collection (so far):

- The Complete Symphonies 1 (2-CD set)
Orch: Boston Symphony
Cond: Sir Colin Davis
Label: Philips

- The Complete Symphonies 2 (2-CD set)
Orch: Boston Symphony
Cond: Sir Colin Davis
Label: Philips

- Symphonies 1-7 (5-CD set)
Orch: Halle Orchestra
Cond: Sir John Barbirolli
Label: EMI

- The Symphonies; Tone Poems (7-CD set)
Orch: Gothenburg Symphony
Cond: Neeme Jarvi
Label: DG

- Kullervo
Orch: Royal Stockholm Philharmonic
Cond: Paavo Jarvi
Label: Virgin Classics

-The Complete Symphonies; Tone Poems (8-CD set)
Orch: Helsinki Philharmonic, Bournemouth Symphony
Cond: Paavo Berglund
Label: EMI

-The 7 Symphonies; Finlandia; Kullervo (7-CD set)
Orch: London Symphony
Cond: Sir Colin Davis
Label: RCA

-The Symphonies (3-CD set)
Orch: Vienna Philharmonic
Cond: Lorin Maazel
Label: Decca

-The Symphonies, Tone Poems, Violin Concerto (5-CD set)
Orch: Boston Symphony, Philharmonia Orch. Of London
Cond: Ashkenazy
Label: Decca

-Symphonies 1-7 (5-CD set)
Orch: City of Birmingham Symphony
Cond: Sir Simon Rattle
Label: EMI

-Kullervo
Orch: Atlanta Symphony
Cond: Robert Spano
Label: Telarc

-Tone Poems
Orch: Atlanta Symphony
Cond; Yoel Levi
Label: Telarc

-Catanas
Orch: Estonian National Symphony
Cond: Paavo Jarvi
Label: Virgin Classics

-The Symphonies (4-CD set)
Orch: San Francisco Symphony
Cond: Herbert Blomstedt
Label: Decca

Most of my collection is tied up in box sets.


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## World Violist (May 31, 2007)

I think the first Sibelius I ever seriously listened to was Bernstein's sole recording of Pohjola's Daughter. I'd heard bits of the 4th and 7th before (also Bernstein/NYPO) but I was not where I am now musically at the time and did not understand the sheer ingenuity going on in the work. But Pohjola's Daughter was a remarkably intense revelation for me: from the opening cello solo I was transported utterly into this other world in which anything became not only possible but a dominant factor. So that was my introduction to Sibelius.

Before that, I had played his Andante Festivo for strings in an All-State orchestra thing. That also was a revelation--such overwhelming beauty! So that's how I found Sibelius; the paragraph above is about how I followed through, as it were.

Don't get me started on Sibelius CD's... I'll take an hour to type it all in when I can.


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## Conor71 (Feb 19, 2009)

Sibelius Is one of my favourite composers and I adore his beautiful Symphonies and Tone Poems .
At the moment my Sibelius collection consists of:

Symphony No. 2/En Saga - Karajan/BPO
Symphonies No. 4 & 5 (My first Sibelius CD) - Karajan/BPO
Symphonies 3, 5, 6 & 7 - Ashkenazy/Philharmonia Orchestra
Violin Concerto/Sernades 1 & 2 - Ida Haendel/Berglund/Bournemouth Symhony Orchestra
Violin Concerto/Tchaikovsky Violin Concerto - Kyung-Wha Chung/Previn/LSO
Tone Poems - Karajan/BPO
Tone Poems - Inkinen/NZSO
Tone Poems - Sakari/Iceland Symphony Orchestra
The Complete Symphonies & Tone Poems (Box Set) - Berglund/Helsinki Philharmonic Orchestra & Bournemouth Symphony Orchestra
Complete Symphonies (Box Set) - Segerstam/Danish National Symphony Orchestra


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## Mirror Image (Apr 20, 2009)

I think Sibelius' music speaks to us all in a very humane way, but the thing I admire about him is he's not afraid to take you out in the middle of nowhere where it's freezing to death. He's like a wise master of Martial Arts, but only his method for building your character is roughing you up a bit and then throwing you out in no man's land.


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## lemarquis (Mar 8, 2009)

He's definitely one of my favorites. I'm still trying to figure out why his music moves me so. I think it has something to do with the way he envelopes you in the landscape and legends of his native land. Here's my present collection:

Complete Piano Music vol 1 / Annette Servadei	
Complete Piano Music vol 2 / Annette Servadei	
Complete Piano Music vol 3 / Annette Servadei 
Complete Piano Music vol 4 / Annette Servadei	
Complete Piano Music vol 5 / Annette Servadei	

Lemmikainen Suite Op22 / Gothenburg Symphony - Jarvi

Everyman, Belshazzar's Feast, The Countess's Portrait / Lahti Symphony Orchestra - Vanska	

Humoresques, Serenades, Serious Melodies, Overture, Ballet Scene / Gothenburg Symphony Orchestra - Neeme Jðrvi / Dong-Suk Kang	

Kullervo Op.7 / London Symphony Orchestra and Chorus - Sir Colin Davis / Peter Mattei - baritone / Monica Groop - mezzo	

Orchestral Suites (Disc 1) - The Tempest Suites 1 & 2, Kuolema, King Christian II / Hungarian State Symphony Orchestra - Jussi Jalas 
Orchestral Suites (Disc 2) - Scenes Historiques Suites 1 & 2, Scaramouche, Swanwhite / Hungarian State Symphony Orchestra - Jussi Jalas 

Orchestral Suites - Finlandia, Valse Triste, Swan of Tuonela, Karelia Suite, Pohjola's Daughter, En Saga / Philadelphia Orch. - Ormandy / NY Philharmonic - Bernstein	

Spring Song, The Bard, Three pieces, Presto for strings, Suites mignonne, champêtre et charactéristique / Gothenburg Symphony Orchestra - Neeme Järvi 

The Symphonies (Disc 1) Nos. 1, 4 / Vienna Philharmonic - Lorin Maazel	
The Symphonies (Disc 2) Nos. 2, 3 / Vienna Philharmonic - Lorin Maazel	
The Symphonies (Disc 3) Nos. 5, 6, 7 / Vienna Philharmonic - Lorin Maazel	

The Wood-Nymph, Swanwhite, Lonely Ski-Trail / Lahti Symphony - Vanska	

Violin Concerto Op. 47, Serenades 1 & 2 Op. 69, Humoresque No. 1 Op. 87 / Staatskapelle Dresden - André Previn / Anne-Sophie Mutter - violin


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## World Violist (May 31, 2007)

Mirror Image said:


> I think Sibelius' music speaks to us all in a very humane way, but the thing I admire about him is he's not afraid to take you out in the middle of nowhere where it's freezing to death. He's like a wise master of Martial Arts, but only his method for building your character is roughing you up a bit and then throwing you out in no man's land.


I feel Sibelius in a somewhat different way, though overall similar. I believe it's more like he's giving us a piece of humanity or something. And something extra as well. I mean, the 4th is pure humanity, and the 6th is pure otherworldliness. There isn't really a best way of describing this. I've begun to think now that words, when it comes to Sibelius, become almost a profanity. With other composers' music I feel like words can in some cases be justified, but with Sibelius words are so far behind that it's just not right to try. Or something like that.


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## Mirror Image (Apr 20, 2009)

World Violist said:


> I feel Sibelius in a somewhat different way, though overall similar. I believe it's more like he's giving us a piece of humanity or something. And something extra as well. I mean, the 4th is pure humanity, and the 6th is pure otherworldliness. There isn't really a best way of describing this. I've begun to think now that words, when it comes to Sibelius, become almost a profanity. With other composers' music I feel like words can in some cases be justified, but with Sibelius words are so far behind that it's just not right to try. Or something like that.


I agree words cannot really do Sibelius justice. He's just somebody you have to hear and judge for yourself. His music is just beyond words.


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## Tapkaara (Apr 18, 2006)

lemarquis said:


> He's definitely one of my favorites. I'm still trying to figure out why his music moves me so. I think it has something to do with the way he envelopes you in the landscape and legends of his native land. Here's my present collection:
> 
> Complete Piano Music vol 1 / Annette Servadei
> Complete Piano Music vol 2 / Annette Servadei
> ...


A fairly well-rounded collection.

I noticed a few things:

The only complete symphony cycle you own is Maazel/VPO. I love this cycle, but many do not. It's a good idea to grab a few Sibelius cycles to compare and contrast the difference in interpretation. You would be surprised how much nuance can be found in the various interpretations of Sibelius...I find that the difference of performance from one ensembel to the other in Sibelius is more pronounced than in other composers.

You own The Wood Nymph. So little known, but one of Sibelius's most sweeping scores. His 'sturm und drang' masterpiece.

I'm impressed that you have Annette Servadei's piano music. I don;t have this particular set, but, I must say, Sibelius's piano output is mostly outstanding, despite the vemon of critics to the contrary. I propose that most who bash his piano output is hardly familiar with it. I have heard lots of people say "it's crap," but they never can mention a single piece they have heard. Interesting, that...


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## Mirror Image (Apr 20, 2009)

Got my hands on this Sibelius Bis box for $67:










Here is the content of this set:

The Essential SIBELIUS - Table of contents/artists

Disc 1: 
Symphony No.1 in E minor, Op.39 
Symphony No.4 in A minor, Op.63 
Lahti Symphony Orchestra · Osmo Vänskä

Disc 2: 
Symphony No.2 in D major, Op.43 
Symphony No.3 in C major, Op.52 
Lahti Symphony Orchestra · Osmo Vänskä

Disc 3: 
Symphony No.5 in E flat major, Op.82 
En saga, Op.9 
Pohjola's Daughter, Op.49 
Valse triste, Op.44 No.1 
Finlandia, Op.26 
Lahti Symphony Orchestra · Osmo Vänskä

Disc 4: 
Symphony No.6 (in D minor), Op.104 
Symphony No.7 in C major, Op.105 
Tapiola, Op.112 
Lahti Symphony Orchestra · Osmo Vänskä

Disc 5: 
Concerto in D minor for Violin and Orchestra, Op.47 
Leonidas Kavakos, violin 
Lahti Symphony Orchestra · Osmo Vänskä

Two Serious Melodies for cello and orchestra, Op.77 
Marko Ylönen, cello 
Lahti Symphony Orchestra · Osmo Vänskä

Two Serenades for violin and orchestra, Op.69 
Six Humoresques for violin and orchestra 
Dong-Suk Kang, violin 
Gothenburg Symphony Orchestra · Neeme Järvi

Disc 6: 
Kullervo, Op.7 
Lilli Paasikivi, mezzo-soprano · Raimo Laukka, baritone 
Helsinki University Chorus 
Lahti Symphony Orchestra · Osmo Vänskä

Disc 7: 
The Wood-Nymph, Op.15 
Lemminkäinen Suite, Op.22 
Lahti Symphony Orchestra · Osmo Vänskä

Disc 8: 
Karelia Suite, Op.11 
Scènes historiques, Set I, Op.25 
Gothenburg Symphony Orchestra · Neeme Järvi

Athenarnes sång (Song of the Athenians), Op.31 No.3 
Lahti Boys' Choir · Helsinki University Chorus 
Lahti Symphony Orchestra · Osmo Vänskä

Tulen synty (The Origin of Fire), Op.32 
Tommi Hakala, baritone · Helsinki University Chorus 
Lahti Symphony Orchestra · Osmo Vänskä

Vapautettu kuningatar (The Captive Queen), Op.48 
Dominante Choir 
Lahti Symphony Orchestra · Osmo Vänskä

Rakastava for strings, timpani and triangle, Op.14 
Andante festivo, JS34b 
Lahti Symphony Orchestra · Osmo Vänskä

Disc 9: 
Kung Kristian II (King Christian II), Op.27 (suite) 
Pelléas et Mélisande, Op.46 (suite) 
The Tempest, Op.109 (extracts) 
Gothenburg Symphony Orchestra · Neeme Järvi

Disc 10: 
Snöfrid, Op.29 
Stina Ekblad, narrator 
Jubilate Choir 
Lahti Symphony Orchestra · Osmo Vänskä

The Bard, Op.64 
The Oceanides, Op.73 
Lahti Symphony Orchestra · Osmo Vänskä

Luonnotar, Op.70 
Helena Juntunen, soprano 
Lahti Symphony Orchestra · Osmo Vänskä

Sortunut ääni (The Broken Voice), Op.18 No.1 
Venematka (The Boat Journey), Op.18 No.3 
Sydämeni laulu (Song of my Heart), Op.18 No.6 
Helsinki University Chorus · Matti Hyökki

Rakastava (The Lover), JS160a (Op.14) 
Monica Groop, mezzo-soprano · Sauli Tiilikainen, baritone 
ubilate Choir · Astrid Riska

Isänmaalle (To the Fatherland), JS98a 
Saarella palaa (Fire on the Island), Op.18 No.4 
Soi kiitokseksi Luojan (We Praise Thee, Our Creator), Op.23 No.6a 
Män från slätten och havet (Men from Land and Sea), Op.65a 
Jubilate Choir · Astrid Riska

Till havs (At Sea), Op.84 No.5 
Fridolins dårskap (Fridolin's Folly), JS84 
Jone havsfärd (Jonah's Voyage), JS100 
Orphei Drängar · Robert Sund

Jääkärien marssi, Op.91a (March of the Finnish Jäger Battalion) 
Helsinki University Chorus 
Lahti Symphony Orchestra · Osmo Vänskä

Finlandia-Hymni (Finlandia Hymn), Op.26 
Jubilate Choir · Astrid Riska

Disc 11: 
Svarta rosor (Black Roses), Op.36 No.1 
Men min fågel märks dock icke (But my Bird is Long in Homing), Op.36 No.2 
Säv, säv, susa (Sigh, Sigh, Sedges), Op.36 No.4 
Illalle (To Evening), Op.17 No.6 
Im Feld ein Mädchen singt (A Maiden Yonder Sings), Op.50 No.3 
Aus banger Brust (O, Wert Thou Here), Op.50 No.4 
Die stille Stadt (The Silent Town), Op.50 No.5 
Anne Sofie von Otter, mezzo-soprano · Bengt Forsberg, piano

Våren flyktar hastigt (Spring is Flying), Op.13 No.4 
Se'n har jag ej frågat mera (Since Then I Have Questioned No Further), Op.17 No.1 
Höstkväll (Autumn Evening), Op.38 No.1 
Arioso, Op.3 (1911) 
MariAnne Häggander, soprano 
Gothenburg Symphony Orchestra · Jorma Panula

Näcken (The Watersprite), song/melodrama, JS138 
Monica Groop, mezzo-soprano · Lasse Pöysti, narrator 
Jaakko Kuusisto, violin · Joel Laakso, cello · Folke Gräsbeck, piano

Giv mig ej glans, ej guld, ej prakt (Give Me No Splendour), Op.1 No.4 
Jag är ett träd (The Tree), Op.57 No.5 
Näcken (The Watersprite), Op.57 No.8 
Hymn to Thaïs, JS97 
Kaiutar (The Echo Nymph), Op.72 No.4 
Längtan heter min arvedel (Longing is my Heritage), Op.86 No.2 
I systrar, I bröder, I älskande par (Ye Sisters, Ye Brothers), Op.86 No.6 
Monica Groop, mezzo-soprano · Love Derwinger, piano

Demanten på marssnön (The Diamond on the March Snow), Op.36 No.6 
Sången om korsspindeln (The Song of the Cross Spider), Op.27 No.4 
På verandan vid havet (On a Balcony by the Sea), Op.38 No.2 
Kom nu hit, död (Come Away, Death), Op.60 No.1 
Jorma Hynninen, baritone 
Gothenburg Symphony Orchestra · Jorma Panula

Souda, souda, sinisorsa (Swim, Duck, Swim), JS180 
Norden (The North), Op.90 No.1 
Narciss (Narcissus), JS140 
Den första kyssen (The First Kiss), Op.37 No.1 
Var det en dröm? (Was it a Dream?), Op.37 No.4 
Flickan kom ifrån sin älsklings möte (The Tryst) , Op.37 No.5 
Anne Sofie von Otter, mezzo-soprano · Bengt Forsberg, piano

Tanken (The Thought), JS192 
Anne Sofie von Otter and Monica Groop, mezzo-sopranos 
Bengt Forsberg, piano

Disc12: 
Moderato - Allegro appassionato in C sharp minor JS131 
String Quartet in A minor, JS183 
String Quartet in D minor 'Voces intimae', Op.56 
Tempera Quartet 
(Laura Vikman, violin I · Silva Koskela, violin II 
Tiila Kangas, viola · Ulla Lampela, cello)

Disc 13: 
Piano Trio in D major, 'Korpo', JS209 
Jaakko Kuusisto, violin · Marko Ylönen, cello · Folke Gräsbeck, piano

Piano Quintet in G minor, JS159 
Jaakko Kuusisto, violin I · Laura Vikman, violin II 
Anna Kreetta Gribajcevic, viola · Joel Laakso, cello 
Folke Gräsbeck, piano

La pompeuse Marche d'Asis, JS116 
Jaakko Kuusisto, violin · Marko Ylönen, cello · Folke Gräsbeck, piano

Disc 14: 
Vattendroppar (Water Drops), JS216 
Jaakko Kuusisto, violin · Taneli Turunen, cello

Andante cantabile in E flat major, JS30b 
Folke Gräsbeck, piano · Harri Viitanen, harmonium

Andante cantabile in G major, JS33 
Sonata in F major, JS178 (1889) 
Jaakko Kuusisto, violin · Folke Gräsbeck, piano

Malinconia, Op.20 (1900) 
Torleif Thedéen, cello · Folke Gräsbeck, piano

Four Pieces, Op.78 for violin and piano 
Sonatina in E major, Op.80 
Two Danses Champêtres from Op.106 
Nils-Erik Sparf violin · Bengt Forsberg piano

Disc 15: 
Florestan, JS82 
Impromptu in B minor, Op.5 No.5 
Sonata in F major, Op.12 
Folke Gräsbeck, piano

Romance in D flat major, Op.24 No.9 
Kyllikki, three lyric pieces, Op.41 
Sonatina in F sharp minor, Op.67 No.1 
Sonatina in E major, Op.67 No.2 
Sonatina in B minor, Op.67 No.3 
Den ensamma furan (The Solitary Fir Tree), Op.75 No.2 
Granen (The Spruce), Op.75 No.5 
Scène romantique, Op.101 No.5 
The Village Church, Op.103 No.1 
Erik T. Tawaststjerna, piano

(Taken from Bis' website)


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## World Violist (May 31, 2007)

This isn't taking as long as I thought... not nearly as long...

Complete Symphonies:
Lorin Maazel/VPO
Karajan-Kamu/BPO-Helsinki RSO
Segerstam/HPO
Davis/BSO
Berglund/HPO

Separate CD's:
Ashkenazy/PO (1, 2, 4, Finlandia, Karelia Suite)
Sakari/ISO (6, 7, Tempest 2)
Davis/LSO Live (3, 5, 6, 7)
Karajan/BPO (4, 5)
Bernstein/NYPO (4-7)
Ormandy/Philadelphia-Bernstein/NYPO (Finlandia, Valse Triste, Karelia Suite (I think), Pohjola's Daughter, et al.)
Kullervo (Paavo Jarvi/Royal Stockholm PO)
Kullervo (Davis/LSO Live)

Other:
Sibelius Edition Box 1 - The Tone Poems (Vanska/Lahti-Neeme Jarvi/Gothenburg)

I think I've got a decent amount of Sibelius; I plan on getting the rest of the BIS Sibelius Edition at some point in my life.


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## lemarquis (Mar 8, 2009)

Tapkaara said:


> A fairly well-rounded collection.
> 
> I noticed a few things:
> 
> ...


Thanks for the input. To be honest, I love this symphony cycle dearly and I'm afraid of spoiling it by trying another. I'm a creature of habit and get attached to things easily. I'm the same way with my Janssons Tchaikovsky symphonies. Some may not think they are the most brilliant, but I'll always swear by his rendering of the 4th and 6th. Anyway, back to Sibelius. Which Sibelius symphony cycles would you suggest? I trust Vanska and Jaarvi, but I don't know if either of them have done all of his symphonies.

We are agreed on the piano music. Actually I've found that many of the pieces are arrangements of some of his miniature orchestral pieces. I've even bought some of the music and learned a few pieces myself - quite enjoyable and accessible for an intermediate pianist.

I'm glad you commented on The Wood Nymph, it is most definitely one of my favorite works. I think it just re-emerged about 10 years ago when it was recorded for the first time and performed for the first time in 60 years. That probably accounts for people's unfamiliarity with it. My copy also has the condensed melodrama version that includes a narrator, which I highly recommend. "Enchanting" is the only word is can say - I love to lose myself in it.

Regards


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## Tapkaara (Apr 18, 2006)

Vanska has indeed recorded all 7 of Sibelius's symphonies. In fact, his cycle is generally considered among the best.

Neeme Jarvi has also done all of Sibelius's symphonies as well, but I am less familair with his cycle.

The Wood-Nymph is an early tone poem, and you are right, it was recently "rediscovered" as of about 15 years ago. Not many non-Sibelians know about it. It's a very youthful work, full of sweeping strurm and drang. One of my favorites, to be sure!


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## Mirror Image (Apr 20, 2009)

There are many complete cycles of Sibelius available. I would go with the Vanska's cycle of Sibelius. I agree with Tapkaara that this cycle is probably one of the best in recorded history. Jarvi's is pretty good, but he doesn't quite reach the emotional intensity as Vanska.

Sir Colin Davis' cycle on the LSO label is very good too. I have been enjoying that one recently. Blomstedt with the San Francisco Orchestra and Simon Rattle with the CBSO is also quite good, but not outstanding.

For the symphonic poems and choral works it's hard to beat Vanska. For the recording of Kullervo, there's many choices that I enjoy: Paavo Jarvi, Berglund, Vanska, and Davis (LSO).


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## Tapkaara (Apr 18, 2006)

Mirror Image said:


> There are many complete cycles of Sibelius available. I would go with the Vanska's cycle of Sibelius. I agree with Tapkaara that this cycle is probably one of the best in recorded history. Jarvi's is pretty good, but he doesn't quite reach the emotional intensity as Vanska.
> 
> Sir Colin Davis' cycle on the LSO label is very good too. I have been enjoying that one recently. Blomstedt with the San Francisco Orchestra and Simon Rattle with the CBSO is also quite good, but not outstanding.
> 
> For the symphonic poems and choral works it's hard to beat Vanska. For the recording of Kullervo, there's many choices that I enjoy: Paavo Jarvi, Berglund, Vanska, and Davis (LSO).


Good choices for Kullervo! Davis/LSO, Jarvi/Stockholm and Berglund/Bournemouth are hard to beat.


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## Mirror Image (Apr 20, 2009)

Tapkaara said:


> Good choices for Kullervo! Davis/LSO, Jarvi/Stockholm and Berglund/Bournemouth are hard to beat.


Yes they are.


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## Mirror Image (Apr 20, 2009)

I've been enjoying Paavo Berglund's recordings of Sibelius lately and I have a bunch of Leif Segerstam's Sibelius recordings on the way.

In honor of our friend, Tapkaara. I'm declaring this week "Sibelius Week." I really miss his insights into Sibelius' music. It's shame he's not around to discuss him. I don't know where you are Tapkaara, but please come back!!!!

I've got a good question for those of you out there, including Tapkaara, what is the idea behind Sibelius' "Swanwhite Suite"? Is this incidental music?


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## World Violist (May 31, 2007)

Mirror Image said:


> I've got a good question for those of you out there, including Tapkaara, what is the idea behind Sibelius' "Swanwhite Suite"? Is this incidental music?


You might find this website of immense use for Sibelius information in general: his official website, apparently. This is the page detailing the composition of Swanwhite: http://www.sibelius.fi/english/musiikki/nayttamo_joutsikki.htm


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## Mirror Image (Apr 20, 2009)

World Violist said:


> You might find this website of immense use for Sibelius information in general: his official website, apparently. This is the page detailing the composition of Swanwhite: http://www.sibelius.fi/english/musiikki/nayttamo_joutsikki.htm


I have forgotten about this site. Thanks, WV! By the way, do you know what has happened to Tapkaara?


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## World Violist (May 31, 2007)

Mirror Image said:


> I have forgotten about this site. Thanks, WV! By the way, do you know what has happened to Tapkaara?


No, actually; it's been puzzling me for this time as well.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

Did Karajan do any Sibelius in digital? If so, are they as good as his older analogue recordings?


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## World Violist (May 31, 2007)

Andre said:


> Did Karajan do any Sibelius in digital? If so, are they as good as his older analogue recordings?


I'm not sure... There is an early digital recording of Tapiola (paired in the original CD with a Nielsen symphony), but otherwise I'm really not sure.


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## Mirror Image (Apr 20, 2009)

Andre said:


> Did Karajan do any Sibelius in digital? If so, are they as good as his older analogue recordings?


I think this is the only DDD Karajan Sibelius recording. I could be wrong of course:










I have not heard this recording, so I can't comment on the performance or interpretation itself.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

Ok thanks, I'll be recommending that recording (if it's still available?) to a friend who prefers to buy only digital. I myself am quite happy with analogue, if the transfer is good (which it usually is)...

By the way, I've said this in other places, but my favourite Sibelius work is the whole _Lemminkainen Suite._ I like it's drama & atmosphere. I've got it coupled with _Tapiola_ on an EMI cd conducted by Ormandy & Berglund (I think?) respectively.

I also listen to the _Violin Concerto _sometimes. I especially like the first movement, it sounds very innovative, even today. How he doesn't state the main theme until about 5 minutes into the piece, for example. No wonder it was mauled by the critics after it's premiere. I've got Hilary Hahn's performance coupled with the Schoenberg concerto.

I will also get into the symphonies, & am planning to buy the EMI reissues of Karajan's analogue recordings, which I've heard alot of good things about.

Sibelius is not my favourite composer, but there are days when I do like his rather idiosyncratic way of putting things. Whatever reasons some may criticise him for, he never copied anybody, he always did things in his own unique way. He was also very self-critical, so what we get from him is always of quite a high standard. I prefer his early to middle works, I find the monochrome of later works like _Symphony No. 7 _to be too pared down & serious, but I think the _Tempest _(also a late work) is quite engaging. I haven't listened to the _Symphony No. 6_ yet, so finding out whether that appeals to me will be quite interesting...


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## Mirror Image (Apr 20, 2009)

My Sibelius collection (updated):

- The Complete Symphonies 1 (2-CD set)
Orch: Boston Symphony
Cond: Sir Colin Davis
Label: Philips

- The Complete Symphonies 2 (2-CD set)
Orch: Boston Symphony
Cond: Sir Colin Davis
Label: Philips

- Symphonies 1-7 (5-CD set)
Orch: Halle Orchestra
Cond: Sir John Barbirolli
Label: EMI

- The Symphonies; Tone Poems (7-CD set)
Orch: Gothenburg Symphony
Cond: Neeme Jarvi
Label: DG

- Kullervo
Orch: Royal Stockholm Philharmonic
Cond: Paavo Jarvi
Label: Virgin Classics

-The Complete Symphonies; Tone Poems (8-CD set)
Orch: Helsinki Philharmonic, Bournemouth Symphony
Cond: Paavo Berglund
Label: EMI

-The 7 Symphonies; Finlandia; Kullervo (7-CD set)
Orch: London Symphony
Cond: Sir Colin Davis
Label: RCA

-The Symphonies (3-CD set)
Orch: Vienna Philharmonic
Cond: Lorin Maazel
Label: Decca

-The Symphonies, Tone Poems, Violin Concerto (5-CD set)
Orch: Boston Symphony, Philharmonia Orch. Of London
Cond: Ashkenazy
Label: Decca

-Symphonies 1-7 (5-CD set)
Orch: City of Birmingham Symphony
Cond: Sir Simon Rattle
Label: EMI

-Kullervo
Orch: Atlanta Symphony
Cond: Robert Spano
Label: Telarc

-Tone Poems
Orch: Atlanta Symphony
Cond; Yoel Levi
Label: Telarc

-Catanas
Orch: Estonian National Symphony
Cond: Paavo Jarvi
Label: Virgin Classics

-The Symphonies (4-CD set)
Orch: San Francisco Symphony
Cond: Herbert Blomstedt
Label: Decca

Kullervo
Orch: London Symphony
Cond: Colin Davis
Label: LSO

-Symphonies 5 & 6
Orch: London Symphony
Cond: Colin Davis
Label: LSO

-Symphony No. 2; Pohjola’s Daughter
Orch: London Symphony
Cond; Colin Davis
Label: LSO

-Symphonies 3 & 7
Orch: London Symphony
Cond; Colin Davis
Label: LSO

-Symphonies 1 & 4
Orch: London Symphony
Cond; Colin Davis
Label: LSO

-The Essential Sibelius (15-CD set)
Orch: Lahti Symphony, Gothenburg Symphony
Cond; Osmo Vanska, Neeme Jarvi, etc.
Label: Bis

-Karajan Edition: Symphony Nos. 2 & 5
Orch: Philharmonia Orchestra
Cond: Karajan
Label: EMI

-Bernstein Conducts Sibelius
Orch: BBC Symphony, Boston Symphony, Vienna Philharmonic
Cond; Bernstein
Label: DG

-Violin Concerto; Serenades Nos. 1 & 2; Suite; Six Humoreques
Orch: Helsinki Philharmonic
Cond; Okko Kamu
Label: Apex

-En Saga; Finlandia; Tapiola; Swan of Tuonela; Oceanides
Orch: Royal Stockholm Philharmonic
Cond; Sir Andrew Davis
Label: Apex

-Symphonies 2 & 3
Orch: Finnish Radio Symphony
Cond: Jukka-Pekka Saraste
Label: Apex

-Complete Symphonies, Violin Concerto, Finlandia (4-CD set)
Orch: Helsinki Philharmonic
Cond: Leif Segerstam
Label: Ondine

-Kullervo (Hybrid SACD)
Orch: Helsinki Philharmonic
Cond: Leif Segerstam
Label: Ondine

-Lemminkainen Suite, Tapiola, etc.
Orch: Helsinki Philharmonic
Cond: Leif Segerstam
Label: Ondine


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## Mirror Image (Apr 20, 2009)

Andre said:


> Ok thanks, I'll be recommending that recording (if it's still available?) to a friend who prefers to buy only digital. I myself am quite happy with analogue, if the transfer is good (which it usually is)...
> 
> By the way, I've said this in other places, but my favourite Sibelius work is the whole _Lemminkainen Suite._ I like it's drama & atmosphere. I've got it coupled with _Tapiola_ on an EMI cd conducted by Ormandy & Berglund (I think?) respectively.
> 
> ...


I don't think that Karajan recording is still avaiable, but your friend may be able to get it used.

Well I'm warming up to his symphonies now, but I was always very impressed with his tone poems, the violin concerto, and the incidental music he composed. I just need to spend more time with the symphonies, I know they're really good and I immediately liked Symphonies 1, 4, 5, and 7, but I'm still getting a feel for the 2nd and 3rd.

By the way, I love "Lemminkainen Suite." Have you heard "Pohjola's Daughter," "Kullervo," "The Oceanides," or "Luonnotar"? I thnk you'll enjoy these compositions as well.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

Well I'm not the biggest Karajan fan, but I think he did some great recordings, the Sibelius among them. I'd be interested to know if the two ever met? This could have happened, since Karajan must have been around 50 or so when Sibelius died in the late 1950's.

I have heard _Pohjola's Daughter _& I forgot to mention I have _The Oceanides _as well. I haven't heard _Kullervo_ or _Luonnotar_. I'll get those when I come across them, but I'm preparing myself to delve into the symphonies now as well.

The thing that I notice with Sibelius is he was really good at doing beginnings & endings. Like the beginning of the _Violin Concerto_, or that unforgettable ending of _Symphony No. 5_, where he has you on tenterhooks waiting for the last concluding blow. & what about the end of _Symphony No. 4_, probably the most abrupt change of mood in the whole repertoire? I think it's this aspect that I find most interesting about Sibelius...


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## Mirror Image (Apr 20, 2009)

Andre said:


> Well I'm not the biggest Karajan fan, but I think he did some great recordings, the Sibelius among them. I'd be interested to know if the two ever met? This could have happened, since Karajan must have been around 50 or so when Sibelius died in the late 1950's.
> 
> I have heard _Pohjola's Daughter _& I forgot to mention I have _The Oceanides _as well. I haven't heard _Kullervo_ or _Luonnotar_. I'll get those when I come across them, but I'm preparing myself to delve into the symphonies now as well.
> 
> The thing that I notice with Sibelius is he was really good at doing beginnings & endings. Like the beginning of the _Violin Concerto_, or that unforgettable ending of _Symphony No. 5_, where he has you on tenterhooks waiting for the last concluding blow. & what about the end of _Symphony No. 4_, probably the most abrupt change of mood in the whole repertoire? I think it's this aspect that I find most interesting about Sibelius...


One of the great things I admire about Sibelius is his use of space and silence. Where many composers try and fill things up, Sibelius used silence and gave things room to breathe. I also just enjoy his harmonic language. Such beautiful voicings found in his music and some pretty surprising twists and turns.

I think he's given the short end of the stick too often by critics, but I thoroughly enjoy his music.


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## World Violist (May 31, 2007)

Andre said:


> Well I'm not the biggest Karajan fan, but I think he did some great recordings, the Sibelius among them. I'd be interested to know if the two ever met? This could have happened, since Karajan must have been around 50 or so when Sibelius died in the late 1950's.


I don't know if the two ever met, but there was a notable quote by Sibelius: after listening to Karajan conducting his fourth symphony, he apparently stated that Karajan really understood his music. If I'm not mistaken, though, they did meet... really not entirely sure though.


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## mueske (Jan 14, 2009)

I have tickets for the performance of symphonies nos. 5 - 6 and 7 at the BPO!

I wouldn't say I'm addicted to the man, but I love his orchestral work and I adore his string quartet!


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## Mirror Image (Apr 20, 2009)

mueske said:


> I have tickets for the performance of symphonies nos. 5 - 6 and 7 at the BPO!
> 
> I wouldn't say I'm addicted to the man, but I love his orchestral work and I adore his string quartet!


As far as I'm concerned, anyone who DOESN'T like "Pohjola's Daughter" or "Kullervo" doesn't like classical music!


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## Bach (Jun 2, 2008)

I'm not especially keen on either of those works..


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## Mirror Image (Apr 20, 2009)

Bach said:


> I'm not especially keen on either of those works..


But how much Sibelius have you actually heard? I thought you were going to be checking out some more Sibelius?


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## Bach (Jun 2, 2008)

I'm listening to Pohjola's Daughter as we speak - other than quite obviously being the inspiration behind the Psycho soundtrack, it's musically quite dull. The orchestration is okay, the harmony is bland and dull and the melody is nothing special. It just sounds like generic post-romantic wash to me. Not really doing much for me.


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## Mirror Image (Apr 20, 2009)

Bach said:


> I'm listening to Pohjola's Daughter as we speak - other than quite obviously being the inspiration behind the Psycho soundtrack, it's musically quite dull. The orchestration is okay, the harmony is bland and dull and the melody is nothing special. It just sounds like generic post-romantic wash to me. Not really doing much for me.


Of course, this is your opinion, Sibelius is celebrated internationally and I can certainly see why, his music means a lot to me. Perhaps one day you'll understand and if you don't then it doesn't bother me, I've heard people say a lot worse things about him than you.

Who is the conductor and orchestra performing the version of "Pohjola's Daughter" you're listening to?

Just remember one man's garbage is another man's treasure. I've learned this the hard way.


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## Bach (Jun 2, 2008)

Of course, but it's not for me. The version I was listening to was by the Iceland Symphony Orchestra - I'm afraid I can't get anymore specific than that.


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## mueske (Jan 14, 2009)

Bach said:


> I'm listening to Pohjola's Daughter as we speak - other than quite obviously being the inspiration behind the Psycho soundtrack, it's musically quite dull. The orchestration is okay, the harmony is bland and dull and the melody is nothing special. It just sounds like generic post-romantic wash to me. Not really doing much for me.


You're certainly not keen on most post-romantic music, may I ask why that is?

Well that sounds wrong, I know you like music beyond that, but I think you know what I mean. ('Disliking' Mahler, Sibelius and such)


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## Mirror Image (Apr 20, 2009)

Bach said:


> Of course, but it's not for me. The version I was listening to was by the Iceland Symphony Orchestra - I'm afraid I can't get anymore specific than that.


Hmmm...must be Petri Sakari conducting the Iceland Symphony Orch. on Naxos. I've heard mixed reviews of that recording. It's not one of the best. Try Osmo Vanska/Lahti Symphony Orch., Leif Segerstam/Helsinki Philharmonic Orch., and Berglund/Bournemouth Symphony Orch. for top-notch performances of "Pohjola's Daughter" and "Kullervo."


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## Aramis (Mar 1, 2009)

mueske said:


> ('Disliking' Mahler, Sibelius and such)


Mahler, Sibelius "and such"? Mahler and Sibelius are completely diffrent story


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## mueske (Jan 14, 2009)

Aramis said:


> Mahler, Sibelius "and such"? Mahler and Sibelius are completely diffrent story


I realize that, but it's difficult to explain . I hope Bach knows what I'm trying to ask...


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

I'm cool with the fact that Bach doesn't like Sibelius. At least he has listened to the muisc, not like some others who just dismiss a composer before not hearing a note of their music.

Generally, I think that a difficult thing with Sibelius is that he doesn't always present a theme at the beginning of a piece. He only gives the listener fragments, which the listener kind of has to put together, before the theme appears at the end. This is radically different from the traditional sonata form. It can get a bit tedious, but that's why I don't listen to Sibelius that often. He's an acquired taste, and I think it's beneficial to leave time between listenings...


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## Mirror Image (Apr 20, 2009)

Andre said:


> I'm cool with the fact that Bach doesn't like Sibelius. At least he has listened to the muisc, not like some others who just dismiss a composer before not hearing a note of their music.


What "other people" would you be referring to?


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

I'm talking mainly about people who attend half a concert, they sit through the old stuff in the first half then go out at interval and don't come back for, say, a modern symphony or something. I've heard of & seen this happens a number of times. That's the type of (inflexible?) people & attitude I'm talking about. So at least Bach had the patience & commonsense to sit through Pohjola's Daughter, even if at home, before making up his mind about Sibelius. Many people, who have preconceptions & ideologies about certain types of music, don't even go that far. They only listen to certain types of music, which, due to their superficial way of looking at things, they see as safe. They are not perceptive about neither the music they like or dislike.


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## Mirror Image (Apr 20, 2009)

Andre said:


> I think that a difficult thing with Sibelius is that he doesn't always present a theme at the beginning of a piece. He only gives the listener fragments, which the listener kind of has to put together, before the theme appears at the end.


Nothing difficult about his music. You either like it or you don't. Simple as that. I think he's fantastic and I'm cool with people not liking him. He's not for everybody. Kind of like Debussy or Berlioz isn't for everybody. To each their own.


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## Mirror Image (Apr 20, 2009)

Andre said:


> Many people, who have preconceptions & ideologies about certain types of music, don't even go that far. They only listen to certain types of music, which, due to their superficial way of looking at things, they see as safe. They are not perceptive about neither the music they like or dislike.


Could you be more specific? Many people? Who are you referring to?


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

What I'm saying is that me & friends of mine have been to concerts, and what I was saying before happens. People stay only for the first half, which has some of the traditional repertoire, and then leave before the second half where a work like a modern symphony is performed. These people are so rigid, they won't even give the music a go, even though they've actually paid for it. I'm not sure if this only happens here in Australia, but I'm pretty sure audiences elsewhere are a little more adventurous?


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## Mirror Image (Apr 20, 2009)

Andre said:


> What I'm saying is that me & friends of mine have been to concerts, and what I was saying before happens. People stay only for the first half, which has some of the traditional repertoire, and then leave before the second half where a work like a modern symphony is performed. These people are so rigid, they won't even give the music a go, even though they've actually paid for it. I'm not sure if this only happens here in Australia, but I'm pretty sure audiences elsewhere are a little more adventurous?


I can see why they won't give the music a go, because most modern music is noise pollution. It's as simple as that.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

Ha ha, by modern symphony I'd mean something like Sibelius, Prokofiev or Shostakovich. These people's attitudes to modern music is very outdated. I don't see how you can justify their inflexibility by referring to your own intolerance to anything post WW2...


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## Mirror Image (Apr 20, 2009)

Andre said:


> Ha ha, by modern symphony I'd mean something like Sibelius, Prokofiev or Shostakovich. These people's attitudes to modern music is very outdated. I don't see how you can justify their inflexibility by referring to your own intolerance to anything post WW2...


Well you weren't being specific so when you said modern symphony I thought you might be referring to a modern composer as in post-WWII.

You're telling me people actually don't want to see a Prokofiev, Shostakovich, or Sibelius symphony live? My goodness how pitiful.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

It doesn't really matter. If you've paid for a concert, you may as well stay the course, in my opinion. I'm going to a concert this weekend, and they are playing some Vaughan Williams among other things. I don't really like his music that much, but does that mean I'll absent myself from the hall when it's being played? If I'm flexible, I'll stay there for the piece, and maybe gain some added insights into it hearing it live. This is my point. People just assume things and don't stick around to listen to things more recent than _The Rite of Spring_. In my opinion, it just shows their lack of perception, ignorance, and borders on rude towards the performers...


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## Mirror Image (Apr 20, 2009)

Andre said:


> It doesn't really matter. If you've paid for a concert, you may as well stay the course, in my opinion. I'm going to a concert this weekend, and they are playing some Vaughan Williams among other things. I don't really like his music that much, but does that mean I'll absent myself from the hall when it's being played? If I'm flexible, I'll stay there for the piece, and maybe gain some added insights into it hearing it live. This is my point. People just assume things and don't stick around to listen to things more recent than _The Rite of Spring_. In my opinion, it just shows their lack of perception, ignorance, and borders on rude towards the performers...


So I'm ignorant, lack perception, and am rude torwards the performers if I don't want to stick around for say Berg's Violin Concerto?

So a person is not very intelligent because they don't like what you like? There's a whole bunch of composers you like that I don't, so does that make me moron because I don't like what you do?


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## Mirror Image (Apr 20, 2009)

I have strong opinions about music and a very low tolerance level for musical nonsense and that's what a lot of modern music sounds like to me.

At the end of the day, I like beautiful, lyrical flowing music. Granted that doesn't describe Stravinsky's music or Bartok's music, but I like the way these composers wrote music as well, but not all the time. I always return to Impressionism. That's where I get the most satisfaction from classical music. Composers who wrote in this style.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

Well maybe I was putting it a bit strongly, but I am puzzled as to why you would pay for a full concert (or even a season ticket) & do this. It just doesn't make sense. If someone is so specific about what they want to hear, then why go to see music live anyway? Just put on a recording at home. Sadly, these people are now beginning to influence concert programmers. No wonder much of the repetoire of the big symphony orchestras is so bland. It's being 'dumbed down' to the level of such people, in my opinion. If they continue to do this, the programmers might get the opposite problem & see people who are more flexible to the more experimental works - and I mean post Rite of Spring by this - not come any more.


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## Mirror Image (Apr 20, 2009)

Andre said:


> Well maybe I was putting it a bit strongly, but I am puzzled as to why you would pay for a full concert (or even a season ticket) & do this.


I didn't say that I did. 

Where have you read above that I stated that I go to concerts and leave when they play something I don't care for?

I don't even go to concerts, so this doesn't even apply to me. If I did go to a concert they would be playing something I would like to see like Janacek's "Sinfonietta" or Brahms' "Violin Concerto." I would make sure the whole program was to my liking before I plunk down my hard earned money.


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## Bach (Jun 2, 2008)

mueske said:


> You're certainly not keen on most post-romantic music, may I ask why that is?


The only post-romantic composer I consistently like is Richard Strauss and that's because he was an absolute master at orchestration and tone painting - the best to ever live - it would be foolish not to delight in his colourful treasures. I also love Rachmaninov, but I see him as part of the romantic period - not an extension of it.

The reason why I'm dismissive towards other post-romantic composers is - firstly, they concentrate on large orchestral forms which don't interest me like chamber, solo and a cappella choral forms do (you can probably see from this list of interests why I like Rachmaninov) and secondly I don't feel they had anything new to say. For me, Sibelius's music is particularly ignorable - his pervading diatonicism, lack of harmonic or thematic contrast, generally subpar orchestration (when compared to the contemporaneous Debussy, Strauss and Ravel) makes his music very vanilla. Of course it has moments of drama - but (like orchestral music's cousin, film music) I feel these are forced rather than allowed to develop organically (like Mahler would).

Mahler is undoubtedly a better and more interesting composer than Sibelius. Some of his individual movements I like very much (particularly from the 9th and 10th symphonies, when his music was becoming more modernist) - but my lack of interest in purely orchestral music makes it difficult to become a Mahlerian - that and my general dislike for the structureless, meandering nature of the 20th century symphony.


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## mueske (Jan 14, 2009)

Bach said:


> The only post-romantic composer I consistently like is Richard Strauss and that's because he was an absolute master at orchestration and tone painting - the best to ever live - it would be foolish not to delight in his colourful treasures. I also love Rachmaninov, but I see him as part of the romantic period - not an extension of it.
> 
> The reason why I'm dismissive towards other post-romantic composers is - firstly, they concentrate on large orchestral forms which don't interest me like chamber, solo and a cappella choral forms do (you can probably see from this list of interests why I like Rachmaninov) and secondly I don't feel they had anything new to say. For me, Sibelius's music is particularly ignorable - his pervading diatonicism, lack of harmonic or thematic contrast, generally subpar orchestration (when compared to the contemporaneous Debussy, Strauss and Ravel) makes his music very vanilla. Of course it has moments of drama - but (like orchestral music's cousin, film music) I feel these are forced rather than allowed to develop organically (like Mahler would).
> 
> Mahler is undoubtedly a better and more interesting composer than Sibelius. Some of his individual movements I like very much (particularly from the 9th and 10th symphonies, when his music was becoming more modernist) - but my lack of interest in purely orchestral music makes it difficult to become a Mahlerian - that and my general dislike for the structureless, meandering nature of the 20th century symphony.


Thanks for the explanation.

I'm curious though, do you like Mahler's sixth symphony? It is somewhat closer in structure to the romantic symphony after all.


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## Mirror Image (Apr 20, 2009)

Bach said:


> The only post-romantic composer I consistently like is Richard Strauss and that's because he was an absolute master at orchestration and tone painting - the best to ever live - it would be foolish not to delight in his colourful treasures. I also love Rachmaninov, but I see him as part of the romantic period - not an extension of it.
> 
> The reason why I'm dismissive towards other post-romantic composers is - firstly, they concentrate on large orchestral forms which don't interest me like chamber, solo and a cappella choral forms do (you can probably see from this list of interests why I like Rachmaninov) and secondly I don't feel they had anything new to say. For me, Sibelius's music is particularly ignorable - his pervading diatonicism, lack of harmonic or thematic contrast, generally subpar orchestration (when compared to the contemporaneous Debussy, Strauss and Ravel) makes his music very vanilla. Of course it has moments of drama - but (like orchestral music's cousin, film music) I feel these are forced rather than allowed to develop organically (like Mahler would).
> 
> Mahler is undoubtedly a better and more interesting composer than Sibelius. Some of his individual movements I like very much (particularly from the 9th and 10th symphonies, when his music was becoming more modernist) - but my lack of interest in purely orchestral music makes it difficult to become a Mahlerian - that and my general dislike for the structureless, meandering nature of the 20th century symphony.


Bach, this is an intelligent, thoughtful critique of 20th Century classical and why you don't like it. Thanks for being so straightforward.

I think it should be said I share many of your views, especially in regards to orchestration, but orchestration alone does not constitute a good piece of music for me. I know, I know, this is coming from a Ravelian, but I still feel this way. Liszt might not have been a great orchestrator, but what he lacked in orchestration, he made up for in pure dramatic and emotional impact. Perhaps you're not one that likes something that's too emotional or bombastic? I find this odd, because you're such a fan of Wagner. Wagner crams and forces music down people's throat everytime they put on one of his operas. Brahms is the same way. Brahms, if played correctly, can be very emotionally drenching.

A lot of things we like intersect like our love for Debussy, Strauss, Ravel, and Stravinsky, but we are also two very different listeners. Nobody is right and nobody is wrong. We're just two different minds. Andre and I are very much a like in many of the composers we like, but we are alway very different in other composers.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

Bach said:


> For me, Sibelius's music is particularly ignorable - his pervading diatonicism, lack of harmonic or thematic contrast, generally subpar orchestration (when compared to the contemporaneous Debussy, Strauss and Ravel) makes his music very vanilla. Of course it has moments of drama - but (like orchestral music's cousin, film music) I feel these are forced rather than allowed to develop organically (like Mahler would).
> 
> Mahler is undoubtedly a better and more interesting composer than Sibelius. Some of his individual movements I like very much (particularly from the 9th and 10th symphonies, when his music was becoming more modernist) - but my lack of interest in purely orchestral music makes it difficult to become a Mahlerian - that and my general dislike for the structureless, meandering nature of the 20th century symphony.


Well I too find it hard to grasp why Sibelius reduced his orchestral colour so much in the end. Obviously he had his reasons, and I can hear the difference between his early & late works. I sense a feeling of depression in some of his music, such as the _Symphony No. 7_. But we must accept the good & the bad in life, right? So I think that, even though sometimes it's a drag to listen to such works, Sibelius provides a unique insight into the human condition. Don't get me wrong, I'm not a Sibelian, but I think that there is a value to what he wanted to get across, maybe rather than the way he chose to get it across?

As for Mahler, I also think it's also sometimes a drag to listen to his symphonies because of their sheer length. I like the shorter symphonies better than the longer ones. Mahler does give you more contrasting moods and orchestral colours than Sibelius, that is true. & I think he pushed the boundaries more than Sibelius, but of course that's a generalisation (I think Sibelius' _Tapiola _sounds quite modern). But neither of these composers are among my absolute favourites (neither is Richard Strauss or Wagner for that matter). I think if you are talking about the 1860's generation, I like Debussy & Janacek alot more...

But one commonality I find between Sibelius & Mahler is that neither liked the traditional sonata form. They developed their own individual ways of doing things in regard to musical structure.


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## Mirror Image (Apr 20, 2009)

Andre said:


> Well I too find it hard to grasp why Sibelius reduced his orchestral colour so much in the end. Obviously he had his reasons, and I can hear the difference between his early & late works. I sense a feeling of depression in some of his music, such as the _Symphony No. 7_. But we must accept the good & the bad in life, right? So I think that, even though sometimes it's a drag to listen to such works, Sibelius provides a unique insight into the human condition. Don't get me wrong, I'm not a Sibelian, but I think that there is a value to what he wanted to get across, maybe rather than the way he chose to get it across?
> 
> As for Mahler, I also think it's also sometimes a drag to listen to his symphonies because of their sheer length. I like the shorter symphonies better than the longer ones. Mahler does give you more contrasting moods and orchestral colours than Sibelius, that is true. & I think he pushed the boundaries more than Sibelius, but of course that's a generalisation (I think Sibelius' _Tapiola _sounds quite modern). But neither of these composers are among my absolute favourites (neither is Richard Strauss or Wagner for that matter). I think if you are talking about the 1860's generation, I like Debussy & Janacek alot more...
> 
> But one commonality I find between Sibelius & Mahler is that neither liked the traditional sonata form. They developed their own individual ways of doing things in regard to musical structure.


What do you dislike about R. Strauss and Wagner?


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## JAKE WYB (May 28, 2009)

Bach said:


> For me, Sibelius's music is particularly ignorable - his pervading diatonicism, lack of harmonic or thematic contrast, generally subpar orchestration (when compared to the contemporaneous Debussy, Strauss and Ravel) makes his music very vanilla. Of course it has moments of drama - but (like orchestral music's cousin, film music) I feel these are forced rather than allowed to develop organically (like Mahler would).
> 
> Mahler is undoubtedly a better and more interesting composer than Sibelius. Some of his individual movements I like very much (particularly from the 9th and 10th symphonies, when his music was becoming more modernist) - but my lack of interest in purely orchestral music makes it difficult to become a Mahlerian - that and my general dislike for the structureless, meandering nature of the 20th century symphony.


Sibelius was equal to mahler - he had a genuine stance topwrds synphoic structure, was every bit the more innovative composer in terms of his sound world, whereas mahler carried on from wgner.brickner etc in piling on ionstruments and harmonies and complexities

sibelius was the most subtle, beautiful orchestrator of the 20th century on that he made the simplest and most exposed passage sound so radioant and beaituful - ie the start of 5th/6th symponies on a way mahler/ravel couldnt. Orchestrational skill isnt just about sparkles and tricks, its about using the music itself to bring out the nuances and radiance of the instrumental colour and to create atmosphere in a depp not superficial way, whixchis a characteristcic that was there for throughout sibeliu's output till the end - the orchestratoion within symopnoy 6th is perfecly attuned to the music and though it doesnt have tinckling celetas and crashing percussion, its so immemnsely perfectand radiant in a distant magical way that it makes him _the_ master of orchestral colour


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## JAKE WYB (May 28, 2009)

and of course the free yet tightly reined musical structure which takes on a natural and god-like logic - 4th symphony onwards - is more tighlty reined and controlled in its use of material and thematic transformation than any beethoven or brahms symphony - yet it is his control of symphonic character and overall form and colour which make his last 4symphonies the most concise and unified ever, and with the subtle but powerful sound worlds from which they emerge - if anyone things the colouring is bland then they have a superficial appreciation of the music


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## mueske (Jan 14, 2009)

Those two posts are satire, right?


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## Bach (Jun 2, 2008)

I was going to ask the same thing..


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## Fergus (Aug 25, 2009)

I've just been recently getting into Sibelius. I began by listening to different versions of some of his symphonies on Napster. So far, I've made the following purchases, though some of it was not on Napster, and I haven't listened to all of it yet.

Symphonies 3 & 6 from Sibelius: Symphony No. 3 & Symphony No. 6 - Stravinsky: Concerto for Violin and Orchestra by Thomas Zehmetmair and the Northern Sinfonia. When I heard these, I loved them more than other versions I had heard. I especially liked No. 6. Listening to it made me feel very happy. I didn't purchase the Stravinsky piece on this album, because it didn't appeal to me.

Sibelius: Symphony No. 2 & Finlandia by Yoel Levi and the Cleveland Orchestra. Since Telarc is not on Napster, and it was less expensive than some other versions on emusic, I got it without hearing it first. I haven't finished it yet.

Sibelius: Symphonies Nos. 1 And 4 by Osmo Vanska and the Lahti Symphony Orchestra. This was one of the first Sibelius albums I listened to on Napster. I didn't get into it the first time, but when I had become familiar with the 1st symphony by listening to various versions, I came back to this one and really liked it. Since getting this from emusic, I noticed that Audio Lunchbox has this and the rest of the symphonies performed by the Lahti Symphony Orchestra in a set called the Essential Sibelius. I may pick up the rest of that there, since Audio Lunchbox is now cheaper than emusic. I'm also thinking about getting the Sibelius Edition Volume 1 Tone Poems from Audio Lunchbox.

SIBELIUS, J.: Tempest Suites Nos. 1 and 2 / The Oceanides / Night Ride and Sunrise by Leif Segerstam and the Helsinki Philharmonic Orchestra. I haven't listened to this yet. I was interested in getting the symphonies by this orchestra, but the ones at emusic are higher priced than some of the others, including those on the Bis label. Also, I didn't find them on Napster, though I did find another cycle by this orchestra with Paavo Berglund on Napster, and what I've heard of it so far is excellent. I'm tempted to buy this whole cycle from Napster, since, being on the EMI label, emusic doesn't have it, and it is not among the very little EMI stuff on Audio Lunchbox.


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## Fergus (Aug 25, 2009)

I just finished listening to the Yoel Levi performance of Sibelius's 2nd Symphony and Finlandia. Overall, it was very good. In listening to Finlandia, I recognized the music to a hymn I've heard in church.


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## Cortision (Aug 4, 2009)

What I have heard by Sibelius so far I have found unique and refreshing. I think it is a mistake to say a composer is sub-par because they do not write like another composer. I rather think it is best to value each composer and each work for what it offers that is unique, outside of how revolutionary or otherwise it is in its historical context. For example, Brahms was considered very old-fashioned by Wagner fanatics, but all this time later neither composer seems to be losing popularity.

I love Symphony No 2, Kerelia Suite, Finlandia, Swan of something-or-other, and Symphony No 7 is growing on me. The world would be less without this Finn.


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## Padawan (Aug 27, 2009)

I just happen to hear of Sibelius for the first time yesterday. A young violinist named Hilary Hahn was playing a piece by him. She's pretty good.


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## Aramis (Mar 1, 2009)

I'm quite addicted to Sibelius right now. His chamber music is great, especially solo piano pieces. Sonata F major is, so far, my favourite. Just like Grieg's, his music sounds very cold and blue.


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## JAKE WYB (May 28, 2009)

The 5 piano pieces labelled the trees I find to be the most characteristic sibelius piano pieces I know - but i still think they arent a patch on grieg


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