# Antidote to Classical



## Argus (Oct 16, 2009)

It is clear for anyone with functioning ears that classical music has a severe defiency in a particular aspect of its make-up. However, this ingredient from the music is rightfully omitted to keep the music clearly definable and relevant to its audience. Essentially, to keep the music 'classical'.

I am talking about that rather mysterious quality that is often described by a multitude of words but I think the best one is GROOVE. That which makes your body want to move. Your head bop and feet tap. Classical seems to be either geometrically square or languid and stretched, never combining a regular pulse with danceable syncopation. Again, that is not a bad thing, it's just the nature of the genre.

But I am a man that needs that which classical alone cannot provide. A balanced diet of sonic vegetation to keep me truly contented.

So bring forth your offerings of groove, of swing, of funk and relish in de RIDDIM.

I'll get the ball rolling:


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## Aramis (Mar 1, 2009)

I guess I know what you mean. When I feel this way I turn on The Monks. Black Monk Time album. What a refreshing musical decerebration.


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## Weston (Jul 11, 2008)

Argus, I believe you are even more eclectic than me.

Here are some of my favorite intense grooves.

People who think fusion is some kind of smooth jazz are quite wrong.





(Caution with this one. It will wake the neighbor's baby and cause all the dogs in the neighborhood to bark. Around the 2:00 minute mark is fantastic.)





And of course one of the most maligned bands of all time. Not really funky, but they could sure get a groove going. I love the tone of this Messenger hollow body guitar stuffed with foam and with the "F" holes duct taped. Well, I guess that_ is _funky after all.





I'll stop there. Dang, they're all American. Maybe that's because the British music I like is in 13/8 time or similar.


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## JMJ (Jul 9, 2010)

Argus said:


> It is clear for anyone with functioning ears that classical music has a severe defiency in a particular aspect of its make-up. However, this ingredient from the music is rightfully omitted to keep the music clearly definable and relevant to its audience. Essentially, to keep the music 'classical'.
> 
> Classical seems to be either geometrically square or languid and stretched, never combining a regular pulse with danceable syncopation. Again, that is not a bad thing, it's just the nature of the genre.


What a load ... no offence but you should explore art music of the 20th & 21st century before posting embarassing stuff like this. Grooves found elsewhere are fine in limited doses but by their very nature... are suffocating and musically constricting ...


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## Siegmund (Aug 9, 2010)

JMJ said:


> What a load ... no offence but you should explore art music of the 20th & 21st century before posting embarassing stuff like this. Grooves found elsewhere are fine in limited doses but by their very nature... are suffocating and musically constricting ...


Well Said!!! 
It is exactly this "regular pulse with dancable syncopation" as Argus puts it, that makes contemperary non-cassical music entertainment, instead of art.


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## Argus (Oct 16, 2009)

Aramis said:


> I guess I know what you mean. When I feel this way I turn on The Monks. Black Monk Time album. What a refreshing musical decerebration.


Cool. Never heard of them before but that was good.



Weston said:


> And of course one of the most maligned bands of all time. Not really funky, but they could sure get a groove going. I love the tone of this Messenger hollow body guitar stuffed with foam and with the "F" holes duct taped. Well, I guess that is funky after all.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I'll adjudicate and agree that the GFR track contained plenty of groove. That J-Bass with the soapbar pickup had some seriously nice tones and the blues harp ruled.

I think Europeans (especially Northerners) aren't culturally disposed to create deep grooves like the Americans (North and South) and the Africans. Not to say we can't kick out the jams. LZ, DP and BS all had great rhythm sections who knew how to get into a serious groove, even PF could groove as evidenced by the middle of Echoes and the bassline from Money. Even European Jazz seems to be of the 'sit down and frown' variety as opposed 'get up and dance'.(Clearly not Gypsy Jazz)



JMJ said:


> What a load ... no offence but you should explore art music of the 20th & 21st century before posting embarassing stuff like this. Grooves found elsewhere are fine in limited doses but by their very nature... are suffocating and musically constricting ...


Niblock, Oliveiros, Lucier, Glass, Riley, Reich, Schnittke, Feldman, Brown, Tudor, Cage, Boulez, Kagel, Xennakis, Takemitsu, Chin, Part, Penderecki, Gorecki, Young, Jeck, Ashley, Monk, Nancarrow, Nono, Schaeffer, Ferrari, Ligeti, Aho, Radigue, Branca, Dumitrescu, Copland.

Please point me to the groove in that list. There are trace amounts of groove from some of them, but a single Miles record from the late 60's/70's contains more than all of them combined.



Siegmund said:


> Well Said!!!
> It is exactly this "regular pulse with dancable syncopation" as Argus puts it, that makes contemperary non-cassical music entertainment, instead of art.


Aramis and Weston seemed to get the idea of this thread pretty quickly. This is not a debate thread but a celebration and sharing of groove, funk and swing. If you think some classical music features this then name names or post links. Otherwise your words are meaningless.


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## Siegmund (Aug 9, 2010)

Argus said:


> Aramis and Weston seemed to get the idea of this thread pretty quickly. This is not a debate thread but a celebration and sharing of groove, funk and swing. If you think some classical music features this then name names or post links. Otherwise your words are meaningless.


If this thread was intended to celebrate groove, funk and swing please accept my humble apologies for posting in here - in that case I do not at all belong here lol


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## JMJ (Jul 9, 2010)

There is loads of dance in art music going right back to the baroque era (listen to the Brandenburgs!)... and the point was not who has 'obvious' post-African rhythmic repetition in there music or not. African, Indian, etc. (even harmonic) polyrhythmic complexity has been absorbed and exploited by many 20th century & many contemporary composers (google it), but the point is that the music is hardly 'deficient' for the ridiculous reasons you frame it to be ...in order to "keep it classical" (composers don't think like that) ... you're out of touch. And if anything ... when comparing ... this groove stuff your touting is far more deficient & lacking musically, no contest.


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## Argus (Oct 16, 2009)

JMJ said:


> There is loads of dance in art music going right back to the baroque era (listen to the Brandenburgs!)... and the point was not who has 'obvious' post-African rhythmic repetition in there music or not. African, Indian, etc. (even harmonic) polyrhythmic complexity has been absorbed and exploited by many 20th century & many contemporary composers (google it), but the point is that the music is hardly 'deficient' for the ridiculous reasons you frame it to be ...in order to "keep it classical" (composers don't think like that) ... you're out of touch. And if anything ... when comparing ... this groove stuff your touting is far more deficient & lacking musically, no contest.


It's apparent you don't understand the term 'groove'. Bringing up the Brandenburg Concerto's in this thread is a clear indicator of that.

I'll ask again, please cite specific pieces that display groove, swing and general funkiness.

Some examples to help you out:









































If anyone knows any good Latin American or African stuff, that'd be great, because that is territory I have very little knowledge of.


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## KaerbEmEvig (Dec 15, 2009)

Here you go, Argus:




































Jam sessions in Soho, London.

I have the whole discography, if anyone's interested (really hard to get nowadays).

And something from my country (two parts of the same gig):











Second part/movement has groove, but it's better to listen to it as a whole.


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## JMJ (Jul 9, 2010)

Argus said:


> That which makes your body want to move. Your head bop and feet tap.
> 
> [...]
> 
> ...





Argus said:


> It's apparent you don't understand the term 'groove'. Bringing up the Brandenburg Concerto's in this thread is a clear indicator of that.


It's apparent you have a very low comprehension level and have a very narrow understanding of rhythm in general and rhythms found in art music. With the Brandenburgs (as one early example that has dance, making you want to tap your foot etc) ...I was referring to a few particular dorky statements you made in the idiotic opening post ... and there are a plethora of latin rhythms also found in art music as well. The whole premise & how you framed this thread (art music is deficient, 'groove' is an antidote to classical music!?! etc) is just stupid & uninformed. Google around ...


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## Argus (Oct 16, 2009)

KaerbEmEvig said:


> Here you go, Argus:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I seem to remember hearing Cymande before (I think from you) but reading the name of the band as Cyanide. Anyway, that is what I am talking about. Groove in abundance. Dove and The Message were my great but all the videos contained a good dose of funk. Dove had a bit of a lo-fi Isaac Hayes feel with a Popol Vuh guitar soloing over the top about it: Rhythm + Guitar

As for the Voo Voo, it's a bit hard to establish groove when the bass player only comes on stage 7 minutes into the song. Still decent stuff though.



JMJ said:


> It's apparent you have a very low comprehension level and have a very narrow understanding of rhythm in general and rhythms found in art music. With the Brandenburgs (as one early example that has dance, making you want to tap your foot etc) ...I was referring to a few particular dorky statements you made in the idiotic opening post ... and there are a plethora of latin rhythms also found in art music as well. The whole premise & how you framed this thread (art music is deficient, 'groove' is an antidote to classical music!?! etc) is just stupid & uninformed. Google around ...


All talk, no funk.


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## JMJ (Jul 9, 2010)

A few faves, that offer more than just sick *** 'grooves' ...

Maceo Parker - Cold Sweat





Marcus Miller - Higher Ground





Weather Report, Teen Town Live!





Herbie Hancock - Actual Proof


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## Il Seraglio (Sep 14, 2009)

The Stooges' music gives me an intense adrenaline rush and I think they are about as far away from classical music as you can possibly get.


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## KaerbEmEvig (Dec 15, 2009)

Alhambra from Japan:


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