# Puccini a Misogynist?



## Jobis (Jun 13, 2013)

The theme with a lot of puccini operas is that any female character falls immediately in love with the handsome male lead, and often dies out of love for him. The most extreme example perhaps in turandot with Liu, or in madame butterfly. Does this reflect on puccini badly? He seems to give his female characters very minimal characterisation, what reason does Liu have for falling in love with Calaf other than the fact she is a weak, emotional woman? Similarly Calaf quite agressively woos Turandot herself, which can be considered romantic, but also is a bit rapey isn't it?

I really love these operas, but sometimes I have to wonder about the rather negative characterisation of women, something of a stereotype. In that sense I'd say Wagner is miles ahead of puccini (as well as in other areas, arguably) since most of his female characters have a degree of independence, spirit and strength of character. Isolde, Brunnhilde, Fricka etc. are all realistic, admirable women to an extent. 

I'm not some kind of radical feminist who believes all female characters should be independent badass heroines, but its a bit tiresome in puccini to keep seeing the overly emotional stereotypes. I'm sure there is a lot more to be said on the matter thus I made this thread.


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## Vesteralen (Jul 14, 2011)

In my "Rest of the Story" parodies, I've become obsessed with balancing the score with regard to female opera characters who have been asked to endure all sorts of dismissive and/or abusive conduct on the part of their male co-stars.

I should turn my attention to Puccini. Of course, if the woman is already dead, there isn't much scope for the "rest of the story"


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## Ingélou (Feb 10, 2013)

Madame Butterfly is hard-done-by, but I see her as a strong proud character with a keen sense of honour.


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## katdad (Jan 1, 2009)

Most of the story lines are typical for 19th century ethics and morals, particularly in Roman Catholic dominated cultures. Puccini was simply a product of his time, and his provincial attitude toward women was typical for society.

Wagner seems to have been a bit more evenhanded but he's still fairly imperious regarding personal mores, the nobility being more based on royalty or deities rather than individual standards. But I do admit to not being all that closely informed on Wagnerian plotlines.

However if we look at Marriage of Figaro, we see a fairly evenhanded treatment of women, surprising for the time. Susanna is probably the brightest and most honorable of anyone, Figaro a close second. But "weakness" doesn't seem to be sex-based at all in this opera, but spread evenly to both male and female characters, the Count being the least admirable of all.

Bottom line, I don't blame Puccini personally, just his culture. Wagner had the benefit of a more egalitarian protestant-based religion and a more enlightened culture generally, compared with Italy at the time.


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## Jobis (Jun 13, 2013)

katdad said:


> Most of the story lines are typical for 19th century ethics and morals, particularly in Roman Catholic dominated cultures. Puccini was simply a product of his time, and his provincial attitude toward women was typical for society.
> 
> Wagner seems to have been a bit more evenhanded but he's still fairly imperious regarding personal mores, the nobility being more based on royalty or deities rather than individual standards. But I do admit to not being all that closely informed on Wagnerian plotlines.
> 
> ...


Perhaps, Its interesting though I've heard in protestant societies there is a higher rate of suicide than in catholic, but with Puccini's operas it would suggest the opposite.

I think for Puccini it might not be society that affected his work so much as his intimate relationships with women, there was that scandal with the cleaning girl who was (wrongly) accused of having an affair with him which tragically lead to her killing herself. Such an event must have had something of an impact upon the man.


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## Cavaradossi (Aug 2, 2012)

The Puccini household erupted in scandal when a maid there commited suicide after Puccini's wife Elvira publicly and falsely accused her of having an affair with her husband. (Yet Elvira was no angel herself.) So when Puccini writes of both weak-willed and strong-willed women, it's a subject he has some familiarity with.


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## MAuer (Feb 6, 2011)

Women sacrificing themselves for men (or to fix the mess that men have made) is certainly present in Wagner's operas. Brünnhilde immolates herself (granted, this was based on Norse mythology), Senta jumps in the sea to save the Dutchman, and Elisabeth dies praying and pining away for Tannhäuser. And if you want to find misogyny in opera, look no further than _Die Zauberflöte _-- with a nice little bit of racism thrown in, as well. And what about the manner in which women are portrayed in another Mozart-da Ponte collaboration, _Cosi fan tutte_? I think we need to be very careful about stereotyping any particular religion or nationality in an attempt to explain a particular composer's choice of subject material for his operas.


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## katdad (Jan 1, 2009)

Good comments, MAuer. You're totally correct about Cosi which is why I've never been able to enjoy that opera despite the music being good. And the Monostatos black thing in Flute is also quite true.

I wasn't defending Mozart per se, just stating that Nozze is fairly even in its stance regarding women, and in fact, the men are shown to be less bright and more rude in their behavior than the women.

Re. the influence of the Roman Catholic church vs, say, protestant churches of the same era, both were of course male dominated. There is however a permeative social aspect in strongly dominated Roman Catholic countries such as Italy and a larger cultural influence. And that does occasionally leak over into all sorts of art, such as opera, prose, and other art.

Thanks for the commentary.


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

Puccini certainly wrote one very strong capable and resolute female character who comes out alive in the end, having saved her lover from hanging: Minnie in La fanciulla del West.

Tosca, Butterfly and Mimi are all women who earn their own living as best they can in difficult circumstances and are not 'owned" by any father or brother. They find themsleves in difficult circumstances but keep struggling. Quite a step forward from the 19th century, actually.

I find Wagner's attitude to women much more repressive: Eva, Brünnhilde, Senta, Elizabeth, Elsa and others are all subject to fathers, brothers and husbands, and are expected to obey them without question.


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## Hoffmann (Jun 10, 2013)

mamascarlatti said:


> Puccini certainly wrote one very strong capable and resolute female character who comes out alive in the end, having saved her lover from hanging: Minnie in La fanciulla del West.
> 
> Tosca, Butterfly and Mimi are all women who earn their own living as best they can in difficult circumstances and are not 'owned" by any father or brother. They find themsleves in difficult circumstances but keep struggling. Quite a step forward from the 19th century, actually.
> 
> I find Wagner's attitude to women much more repressive: Eva, Brünnhilde, Senta, Elizabeth, Elsa and others are all subject to fathers, brothers and husbands, and are expected to obey them without question.


Don't you think a stronger case can be made for Brünnhilde? She crossed her father and paid the price (even if she did have to persuade him not to proceed with his first choice of punishment). She does get double-crossed by Siegfried, but gets her revenge. What makes the Immolation scene so powerful (at least when stage respectfully and not by some really crazed Regie guy), is her selfless sacrifice for the good of mankind - not just pining for Siegfried. She has her ups and downs, but is a strong-willed woman.

I don't think labeling composers as misogynist is particularly enlightening. Male-Female relationships were vastly different in the 18th and 19th centuries (also known as the Victorian era). Both Puccini's and most of Wagner's operas are tragedies, and someone typically has to die for something to be considered 'tragic'.

Using the above criteria, Shakespeare also would have to be considered a misogynist, as his women certainly follow the model. I think there is such a thing as "artistic license", which would allow composers and authors to exaggerate circumstances to make their point with audiences.


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## Jobis (Jun 13, 2013)

Hoffmann said:


> Don't you think a stronger case can be made for Brünnhilde? She crossed her father and paid the price (even if she did have to persuade him not to proceed with his first choice of punishment). She does get double-crossed by Siegfried, but gets her revenge. What makes the Immolation scene so powerful (at least when stage respectfully and not by some really crazed Regie guy), is her selfless sacrifice for the good of mankind - not just pining for Siegfried. She has her ups and downs, but is a strong-willed woman.
> 
> I don't think labeling composers as misogynist is particularly enlightening. Male-Female relationships were vastly different in the 18th and 19th centuries (also known as the Victorian era). Both Puccini's and most of Wagner's operas are tragedies, and someone typically has to die for something to be considered 'tragic'.
> 
> Using the above criteria, Shakespeare also would have to be considered a misogynist, as his women certainly follow the model. I think there is such a thing as "artistic license", which would allow composers and authors to exaggerate circumstances to make their point with audiences.


Puccini's unrealistic representation of women seems more glaringly obvious to me than anything in Wagner or Shakespeare, and I thought if we can have discussions about Wagner's anti-Semitism there are some other issues in opera that might be a problem too.

Of course you need tragic figures and artistic license, but when it becomes a recurring theme that women are super dependent on men to the point where their lives are worth nothing without them, it seems a little too much.


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## katdad (Jan 1, 2009)

Jobis, you're correct but I'm reluctant to vilify Puccini personally. I've never read anything about him that would indicate he was a rude or vicious person, in fact a fairly decent guy. But it's the era in which he lived.

As a quick reminder, my mother was born in 1908. As she grew up and left the farm (literally), women in the 20s and 30s had mostly only 2 legitimate career choices, nursing or teaching, and she chose nursing. Secretaries or typists of course but they were at the time regarded as chattel. Entry into the law, medicine (as physicians), or science was still quite restricted. And it was only in the 20th century that women were accorded full sufferage in most western world countries.

Although I'm not particularly an adherent of Wagner and I think that much of the anti-semitism attributed to him is due to his culture of that era in Germany (where Jews were definitely 2nd class citizens). I really can't say because I haven't read about Wagner's personal life enough (nor care to). Most accounts are that he was something of a jerk. Whether true I don't know.

But Puccini doesn't seem to have been personally a bad guy and I'd guess that his treatment of women in his operas is just a reflection of the era and culture in which he lived.


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## Guest (Aug 24, 2013)

Given the opprobrium that Wagner attracts, it makes a change to find out about the vices and politics of other composers. According to Wiki, Puccini had affairs (a common enough frailty, but reprehensible, nevertheless).

So, maybe not a misogynist, but a womaniser?


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

We know Puccini was a pretty abominable man. But not a misogynist - he liked women too much. What he did go in for sometimes were tragic, fragile heroines like Mimi, Liu and Butterfly.


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

Wagner may have strong heroines in Isolde and Brunnhilde but he was also partial to making strong women the manipulative evil nemesis out to corrupt the good hero: Venus, Ortrud, Kundry. In fact it is the fragile man-dedicated women like Eva, Elizabeth, Elsa more obviously portrayed as virtuous.


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## katdad (Jan 1, 2009)

MacLeod said:


> Given the opprobrium that Wagner attracts, it makes a change to find out about the vices and politics of other composers. According to Wiki, Puccini had affairs (a common enough frailty, but reprehensible, nevertheless).
> 
> So, maybe not a misogynist, but a womaniser?


True, but again, it was the expected behavior for Italian men in that era, divorce being practically impossible. But men have kept mistresses for thousands of years and in many cultures it was accepted as the norm. Morally right in today's view? No, of course.

But like I say, I really haven't read that much about the personal lives of Puccini or Wagner. The only composer bios I've read are those of Mozart and Beethoven. And that reminds me, I'll start a new thread!


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## manuelnobre (Aug 2, 2013)

Interesting topic!
Turandot is clearly the odd opus so maybe i’ll discuss it separatly later. But as far the rest of Puccini’s work is concerned i don’t really agree with the misogynist thing... 
(I’m not so familiar with Villi, Edgar, Manon, Rondine or Trittico but i believe there might also be a good case to be made against misogyny with Manon, Giorgetta and Angelica.)

I mean, just think about Boheme. For me it’s hard NOT to see that the men (and specially Rodolfo) are the weak ones. Mimi is fragile and sweet but there’s more to her! She is dying but she is not weak!She is the personification of Poetry and that’s why Rodolfo falls in love with her at first sight. 
She is the one searching help for her relationship (by talking to a male friend, Marcello...which i think wouldn’t be that common in the mid 1800s) while Rodolfo is trying to flee from those problems. I mean couldn’t he get a job to help her out a little....nope, i prefer to remain a bohemian full-time and let her die in someone else’s arms (and i’m not really judging him...i actually love the libretto for this!)! Mimi is also strong enough to really call it a day (“Adio”) while rodolfo is still emotionally holding back (“Che...vai?”).
And even when she’s dying she still has de guts to say “Sei il mio amore” and he can only mutter “Mimi, mia bella mimi”...i don’t think we should think of her as a silly girl overly devoted to a man but as an emotionaly intelligent and sensitive adult woman.
And don’t get me started on Musetta... The libretto is definitly less punitive or judgemental of her liberated sexual life that for instance with Violetta in Traviata! 

And Tosca? I see her more as an Othello figure. Is she really doing all that for her man (the rather stiff Cavaradossi)? Remember her words when she kills Scarpia (“Avanti a lui tremava tutta Roma”)....she’s saving herself and her country (city).
And i still think she commited suicide to regain power over her life, not because she can’t live without Mario!i mean...she just chose her way to die as she was probably going to be executed anyway!Knowing it’s a sin she kills herself and still believes she will see God and be the righteous one in “His eyes”...she will be reunited with Mario in the end (and the Lucevan le stelle theme in the end gives it away) but Scarpia will still be there, and she is ready for him!

Butterfly is different matter... she is indeed devoted to Pinkerton (another poor male specimen) but then again she is a 15 year old that believes she’s living a great love.
I believe she does understand the truth at least during acts II and III but she is just trying to avoid the unavoidable for her son and for her own mental health (“Un bel di vedremo” is kind of a “mad scene”, isn’t it?). 
In the end she commits suicide out of honour (“Con onor muore”) and not because of her love for a man or her self pity. She says Kate is the luckiest woman in the world, not because she has Pinkerton but because she is truly loved, something Cio Cio San never was.
It’s not the most modern or even penetrating description and understanding of human love, but i think it is a bit exagerated to call it misogyny.


But then we have Minnie!oh god, Minnie!
I don’t have enough words to describe my love for Minnie (and for everything about Fanciulla). She is more than a symbol of redemption: Loved by all the miners, she is really their reason to live...and that’s why the “happy ending” is so terribly melancholic and devastating. 
She believes she is inferior to Johnson (she wants to rise to him and be worthy of him) until she finds out his real identity. It’s only after that she truly becomes one of the most powerful heroines in opera, still maintaining her humanity (flawed like any other).
She’s a rich and complex woman: worried about her education (how often do we see that in opera?), dedicated to her friends and to her work (she is the owner of La Polka), eager and afraid to discover love and sex...
She forgives Johnson because she loves him. She cheats for him and rushes in a walkyrie fashion to save him from being hanged. But above all we must remember she is making her choices in life...she is choosing a life away from the saloon and away from the desire of all the miners, she wants someone to love and to grow old with (reading books by the fireplace, probably)...
Maybe Johnson isn’t the right choice (won’t he run away again?) but it was her choice and she’s sticking to it (another reason for the unsetling happy end!and she’ll be alright if it goes wrong because she has finally learned how to take care of herself (and she doesn’t even need her gun!)


Let’s not forget that Puccini, unlike Wagner, didn’t write his librettos. He was however incredibly invested in choosing, shaping and reworking the librettos and i believe he always took a special interest in giving more power to his female characters (something that comes quite clear in the writing process of Fanciulla).


Ps: this was my first post here, yay!sorry for making it so long and thanks for reading!


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## Bardamu (Dec 12, 2011)

Cio Cio San, as depicted in Madama Butterfly, is a very negative character IMO.
Pinkerton is a despicable character because he used the poor girl for his own pleasure without thinking the consequence.
What a stupid man.

However the extreme dedication to the man whom would be his husband is despicable as much.
If you noted she repudiate his relatives, culture, religion, country basically everything she had for a total nobody.

Of course this is melodramma and so it's not to be taken seriously.

Said that a woman (or man) that in real life dedicate everything (without restrain or self care) to the other half is a bad companion because she (or he) is putting herself not only in a very weak position but in the role of the designed victim too.
That mean the other is executioner that will inevitably hurt her and in doing so he became the true victim.

Returning to Madama Butterfly, seems that the only redeeming quality of Cio Cio San , has happened with Iris, is to be too young to fully understand.
Butterfly isn't as much a tale that narrate the sorrow of a weak woman than a tale that narrate how a young woman schemes is own sad fate.

My 2 cents.


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## Posie (Aug 18, 2013)

If I ever have a daughter, Madame Butterfly will be one of the first grown-up films she watches, and I will tell her that romantic comedies are of the devil (except for those of Shakespeare and Le nozze di Figaro).


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## Revenant (Aug 27, 2013)

As someone has reminded us, Puccini didn't write his librettos. And his librettists Illica and Giacosa were not producing an original story but adapting it. Were Murger (Scenes of the Bohemian Life), Victorien Sardou (Tosca) and the American David Belasco (produced Tosca and Madame Butterfly as stage plays) mysoginists or the product of their sentimental era, which loved sacrificial masochism? Illica and Giacosa considerably softened and sweetened these original stories somewhat. And after I & G departed the stage, Puccini set to music some strong women in his later operas: Minnie in La Fanciulla del West (also a Belasco production btw, iirc), and Schicchi's assertive daughter in Gianni Schicchi. Of course there was Liu as well, but that opera too was based on an original story. Liu and Calaf's aged father are, in fact, the only innocent and selfless characters in Turandot, but they existed in a cruel world, which I think may have been part of the point of the opera.

Comparing veristas to veristas: were Leoncavallo's Pagliacci and Mascagni's Cavalleria less or more mysoginistic to our modern eyes?


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

As to the OP, I agree it was very much a matter of the chauvinism of the Euro- Mediterranean culture(s) of the time.



Jobis said:


> .... I've heard in protestant societies there is a higher rate of suicide than in catholic, but with Puccini's operas it would suggest the opposite.


If that higher suicide rate is true, there are two factors to consider.

1.) A Protestant adherent's perhaps less then appalled fright at the thought of eternal damnation as advertised by the Catholic dogma (does the Catholic church still not allow burial in sanctified grounds for those who committed suicide?.)

2.) The natural psychology of North vs. Southern Europeans as affected by geography and weather, the mid to north being the Protestant territory, with longer nights, many more overcast days, (generally a harsher battle with nature), and a higher rate of a number of more or less destructive / self-destructive acts: the further north you go, the higher the numbers of incidents of depression / alcoholism / suicide.


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## Revenant (Aug 27, 2013)

Of course, if we leave verismo and the Mediterranean behind, we still have Berg's Lulu. Is there a misogynistic element in that Germanic example of serial atonality?


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

Revenant said:


> Of course, if we leave verismo and the Mediterranean behind, we still have Berg's Lulu. Is there a misogynistic element in that Germanic example of serial atonality?


LOL! Most of the men in and about Berg's Lulu all behave badly or wrongly, in thrall rather than in love with the woman, so they come off each as somehow weaker or seedier than the very neutral / stron and _amoral_ Lulu, who is through that amorality truly innocent and without guile (which allows her to say, without a beat, when her husband is murdered (and this shocks / horrifies some) "I am rich." -- just as an observed matter of fact.

Still, some old style _this can not be permitted or the world would fall apart_ moral righteousness is in the Wedekind stories Berg adapted -- because Lulu is ultimately reduced to prostitution and is then killed by Jack the Ripper.


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## Ingélou (Feb 10, 2013)

PetrB said:


> As to the OP, I agree it was very much a matter of the chauvinism of the Euro- Mediterranean culture(s) of the time.
> 
> If that higher suicide rate is true, there are two factors to consider.
> 
> ...


Some Points of Information:

The Catholic Church has changed its position and now says that we cannot know the state of mind of a suicide, that mental illness & anguish diminishes responsibility, & that we should pray for suicides. They can be buried in sanctified ground. It would only be considered a mortal sin if suicide was committed with full knowledge & clear consent for an evil purpose such as to encourage others to follow - but that is theoretical.

The previous strict Catholic ruling meant that suicide was sometimes covered up - Robert Graves in 'Goodbye to All That' describes how a local priest in Majorca pretended to discern life & was thus able to give the last rites to a young man of noble family who had killed himself; in any case, extreme unction was (& is) sometimes given soon _after _death has occurred as it was thought that the soul might still be present.

This could mean that the lower rate of suicide in Catholic countries might not be the whole truth.

In medieval times, suicide was the mortal variety of the sin of Sloth. It was considered a sin of despair, which doubted the mercy of God, and as such sometimes identified as 'the sin against the Holy Ghost' which 'may not be forgiven' as mentioned in the Gospels.

I know this because once in a Middle English seminar at university, my tutor told me of a colleague who was researching the medieval view of The Seven Deadly Sins as he thought that it was their way of making sense of human psychology. Sloth would be Depression, for example. I innocently remarked how fascinating it sounded and at once my tutor set me an extra essay on the Seven Deadly Sins in Medieval Literature. :lol:

Years later, when I was back in Durham doing an MA, I met at a departmental sherry party the colleague who had been doing the supposed Sin-Research. He had no memory of it.... 

It strikes me that a third possible reason for lower suicide rates in Catholic countries is that Catholics have a mechanism for dealing with guilt, the confessional. It's a way of making a new start & moving on, which I personally have found helpful. Traditionally, Protestants have been required to internalise their struggle with guilt & sin, which might be considered more stressful.


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## Taggart (Feb 14, 2013)

PetrB said:


> As to the OP, I agree it was very much a matter of the chauvinism of the Euro- Mediterranean culture(s) of the time.
> 
> If that higher suicide rate is true, there are two factors to consider.
> 
> ...


I would think you have to distinguish between Calvinist and non-Calvinist forms of Protestantism. For example, the Belgic Confession of 1561 affirmed that God "delivers and preserves" from perdition "all whom he, in his eternal and unchangeable council, of mere goodness hath elected in Christ Jesus our Lord, without respect to their works" (Article XVI). So, if you *are *saved .....


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## Revenant (Aug 27, 2013)

PetrB said:


> LOL! Most of the men in and about Berg's Lulu all behave badly or wrongly, in thrall rather than in love with the woman, so they come off each as somehow weaker or seedier than the very neutral / stron and _amoral_ Lulu, who is through that amorality truly innocent and without guile (which allows her to say, without a beat, when her husband is murdered (and this shocks / horrifies some) "I am rich." -- just as an observed matter of fact.
> 
> Still, some old style _this can not be permitted or the world would fall apart_ moral righteousness is in the Wedekind stories Berg adapted -- because Lulu is ultimately reduced to prostitution and is then killed by Jack the Ripper.


True. Sometimes, one person's "innocent" is another person's "moral imbecile". Or to put it in more modern terms, where scientific psychological terms have replaced good-and-evil morality, Lulu could be described as a clearly sociopathic grade of borderline personality disorder, regardless of the issues experienced by the men she knew. Whether Wedekind and/or Berg were mysoginist in crafting her dramatically and musically is for each person to decide on his or her own I guess.


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## Jobis (Jun 13, 2013)

Another possible reason for lower number of suicides among Catholics (although its very off topic haha) is that in the catholic church there is the sacrament of confession, if one is feeling worthless and wretched with guilt maybe they can receive some consolation through receiving divine forgiveness. In churches that don't offer that sacrament, its not unreasonable to think that someone's guilt and feeling of worthlessness can have an effect on their mental state.

AFAIK as another user pointed out, when it comes to cases like suicide it is impossible to know exactly what mental state they were in, and while every case of suicide is seen as a great evil, that does not mean the victim is blameworthy.


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## MAuer (Feb 6, 2011)

Revenant said:


> Comparing veristas to veristas: were Leoncavallo's Pagliacci and Mascagni's Cavalleria less or more mysoginistic to our modern eyes?


Actually, I think the situation in _I Pagliacci _is still relevant to our times. It's not misogynistic to observe that there are still abusive men who view their wives/girlfriends as their personal property, and feel entitled to beating or even killing them. Canio doesn't beat Nedda, of course, but the fundamental underlying attitude that she belongs to him is still there. In _Cavalleria_, Alfio kills Turiddu in a duel, which is rather a different matter. The adulterous relationship between Turiddu and Alfio's wife certainly provokes Alfio's challenge, but in a duel, Alfio himself could have been slain. And Alfio doesn't kill Lola (as far as we know).


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## Cavaradossi (Aug 2, 2012)

Fascinating article relevant to the topic. Check out the photo gallery linked at the top of the article.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2007/sep/30/italy.musicnews

_Hidden photos reveal Puccini's secret lover

Hundreds of letters and photographs recently found in a dusty and long-forgotten suitcase add a new twist to the secret life of the great Italian composer Giacomo Puccini, writes Javier Espinoza.

Hundreds of letters and photographs found stuffed inside in a long-forgotten suitcase have thrown a tragic new light on the secret life of the great Italian composer Giacomo Puccini - and may also reveal a lost operatic composition.
The personal life of the creator of Madama Butterfly and La Boheme was dogged by scandal and tragedy which deeply affected his output as a musician. In 1909, Italian society was gripped by the shocking revelation that Puccini's wife, Elvira, had accused him publicly of having had an affair with the family's servant.

The young maid, Doria Manfredi, was so shamed by the scandal that she committed suicide by drinking poison. Her name was cleared when an inquest established that the girl was still a virgin when she died.

Elvira was taken to court for her false allegations and sentenced to five months and five days in prison, but the composer offered 12,000 lire to the maid's family and Elvira never went to jail, Paolo Benvenuti, a film producer, told The Observer.

But new documents show it was not in fact Doria, but her cousin Giulia that Puccini was involved with. Doria simply acted as a go-between, carrying letters. The affair went on long afterwards, with Giulia bearing Puccini a son. Alfredo Manfredi was born in June 1923, 15 months before his father's death from throat cancer.

Puccini used to visit Giulia in secret every weekend and gave his secret second family a generous monthly allowance. After Puccini's death, however, the money stopped. Alfredo always knew Puccini was his father, but the composer was always referred as to a 'very close friend of the family'. Alfredo died in poverty, aged 75, in 1998...._

Here's Guilia Manfredi, some speculate the model for Minnie. Definitely looks like a strong woman!


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## Guest (Sep 5, 2013)

Cavaradossi said:


> Here's Guilia Manfredi, some speculate the model for Minnie. Definitely looks like a strong woman!


A quite beautiful woman; reminds me of a former lover. _Que bella_!


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## Notung (Jun 12, 2013)

mamascarlatti said:


> Puccini certainly wrote one very strong capable and resolute female character who comes out alive in the end, having saved her lover from hanging: Minnie in La fanciulla del West.
> 
> Tosca, Butterfly and Mimi are all women who earn their own living as best they can in difficult circumstances and are not 'owned" by any father or brother. They find themsleves in difficult circumstances but keep struggling. Quite a step forward from the 19th century, actually.g
> 
> I find Wagner's attitude to women much more repressive: Eva, Brünnhilde, Senta, Elizabeth, Elsa and others are all subject to fathers, brothers and husbands, and are expected to obey them without question.


I think that Elisabeth actually transcended the unforgiving men who surrounded her. She defied them and forgave Tannhäuser. Quite a strong, non-dominated woman. So Wagner wasn't as chauvinist as we think.


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## sharik (Jan 23, 2013)

Jobis said:


> Puccini a Misogynist?


even if he was, this would only mean there's something wrong with women, not him.


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## Jobis (Jun 13, 2013)

sharik said:


> even if he was, this would only mean there's something wrong with women, not him.


Well he was only human, strictly speaking... 

I don't blame him for it, since at the time it was normal behaviour, its just interesting to look at this topic from a modern perspective.


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## sharik (Jan 23, 2013)

Jobis said:


> its just interesting to look at this topic from a modern perspective


what is so special about 'modern perspective' that allows us to judge the past?


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## Guest (Sep 16, 2013)

sharik said:


> what is so special about 'modern perspective' that allows us to judge the past?


We know better .


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## Jobis (Jun 13, 2013)

sharik said:


> what is so special about 'modern perspective' that allows us to judge the past?


well for instance we know that witches do not exist and thus can look at the salem witch trials with that knowledge.


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## sharik (Jan 23, 2013)

MacLeod said:


> We know better


so this is why we aren't capable of creating masterpieces anymore?



Jobis said:


> we know that witches do not exist


are you sure we do? Iraq and Lybia and Syria are the witches of today.
unenlightened bigotry is still in use with the West as back in the Middle Ages.


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## HumphreyAppleby (Apr 11, 2013)

Puccini wasn't a misogynist. It's quite possible that he held some opinions that we today consider sexist. But Puccini wrote about the suffering of women because that's who he could identify with. He was widely criticised for being "effeminate" in a very masculine 20th century Italy. Back then they would have laughed at the notion of Puccini being a misogynist: they would have boasted about being misogynists themselves (they being the Torrefranca's and the fascists). Joss Whedon talks about how it is sometimes easier for men to empathize with women when it comes to certain emotions: it's simply uncomfortable for some men to relate to other men when it comes to their feelings of vulnerability, fear, depression, or sometimes love. Puccini was men who felt all of those emotions very strongly, who was indeed tormented by them. It's no surprise, then, that the women in his operas, the characters who are the closest to him, suffer terribly as he did. Puccini was very poor as a student in Milano, and you could look at Mimi as representing the innocence that was taken from him by that experience. So Minnie isn't suffering because she's a woman, she's suffering because he did, and she's him.

Also, leaving the amateur psychoanalysis by the wayside, notice that in his operas, it is _always_ the women who are the doers. The men mostly just sing about how in love they are. The women get the complex characterization, and the bear the brunt of the action. The possible exceptions to this are Michele and Gianni Schicchi, but _Trittico_ and _Turandot_ are so different from his earlier operas...


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## HumphreyAppleby (Apr 11, 2013)

Jobis said:


> Puccini's unrealistic representation of women seems more glaringly obvious to me than anything in Wagner or Shakespeare, and I thought if we can have discussions about Wagner's anti-Semitism there are some other issues in opera that might be a problem too.
> 
> Of course you need tragic figures and artistic license, but when it becomes a recurring theme that women are super dependent on men to the point where their lives are worth nothing without them, it seems a little too much.


Which one of Puccini's heroines dies because her life isn't worth living without a man? Manon dies from thirst, Mimi dies from tuberculosis, Tosca kills herself not because of Mario's death, but a) because the police were coming for her and b) because she had a score to settle (her last words aren't, "I'm coming baby", they're "Scarpia we meet before God"), Butterfly kills herself because she's lost everything, including her child, and probably a bit to get back at Pinkerton, Minnie lives (!), Magda breaks up with Ruggero and leaves _him_ crying like a baby on stage, Giorgetta doesn't die, Angelica dies for her son, Lauretta doesn't die, and Liu dies to protect Calaf's name (l'amore, not Calaf).


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## Couac Addict (Oct 16, 2013)

The way we perceive the characters is always changing. When Carmen first ran in a very Victorian London, applause erupted when Don Jose plunged the knife. After all, Carmen was a promiscuous temptress who led a perfectly good man astray.

Ask people to describe the role now. You'll probably hear words like sensual, feisty, independent etc.


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## Svelte Silhouette (Nov 7, 2013)

Mimi was such a sad character BUT Giacomo did marry a lady in his mid 20s who'd been married previously to a womaniser so maybe she had been a bit of a sad character too until she met him and that sadness kinda got reflected somehow


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## Svelte Silhouette (Nov 7, 2013)

Elvira's ex-hubby was no saint so who'd blame her for being no angel and having a child with Giacomo whilst still married to spouse #1


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## Svelte Silhouette (Nov 7, 2013)

I'd stay away from Pendle Hill on Hallowe'en if you think that witches don't exist ... woooooooo


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## Couac Addict (Oct 16, 2013)

Svelte Silhouette said:


> I'd stay away from Pendle Hill on Hallowe'en if you think that witches don't exist ... woooooooo


...they seem to be hang out in Burnley for the remainder of the year.


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## Cavaradossi (Aug 2, 2012)

Svelte Silhouette said:


> Elvira's ex-hubby was no saint so who'd blame her for being no angel and having a child with Giacomo whilst still married to spouse #1


Yup. The only reason Elvira was able to marry Puccini at all was that her first husband was killed by the jealous husband of the woman he (Elvira's hubby #1) was having an affair with.


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## Cavaradossi (Aug 2, 2012)

HumphreyAppleby said:


> Puccini wasn't a misogynist. It's quite possible that he held some opinions that we today consider sexist. But Puccini wrote about the suffering of women because that's who he could identify with. He was widely criticised for being "effeminate" in a very masculine 20th century Italy. Back then they would have laughed at the notion of Puccini being a misogynist: they would have boasted about being misogynists themselves...


Sounds right. Despite the generally unhappy endings for his female characters, I gotta believe his operas were the chick flicks of their time.


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## SiegendesLicht (Mar 4, 2012)

Couac Addict said:


> The way we perceive the characters is always changing. When Carmen first ran in a very Victorian London, applause erupted when Don Jose plunged the knife. After all, Carmen was a promiscuous temptress who led a perfectly good man astray.


Carmen was the first opera I have ever attended live (long before I came to know Wagner), and although I did not applaud, I thought Carmen had got what was coming to her as well. If someone falls in love with you, you treat him with honesty, not use him like a toy for your own ends.

As for Puccini's alleged misogynism, I find it to be a futile excercise to judge an art work from a different age on the basis of modern morality, especially such a flimsy and wishy-washy morality as ours. As someone said in this thread before, it is not even a real morality, but rather a bunch of psychological terms. In order to fully appreciate a great work of art, you need to steep yourself in its world and judge it on its own terms, not with some kind of a modern yardstick.


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

Funny. All this time I thought he was a composer.


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## HumphreyAppleby (Apr 11, 2013)

SiegendesLicht said:


> In order to fully appreciate a great work of art, you need to steep yourself in its world and judge it on its own terms, not with some kind of a modern yardstick.


Well said. Art is realer than real is after all.


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## alan davis (Oct 16, 2013)

C'mon guys. I've seen umpteen productions of Puccinis operas. Sure Liu carks it as does Tosca, Manon, Mimi, Cio Cio San and Suor Angelica. But the curtain comes down then rises again and miracle of miracle, they're all alive again, happy and smiling. Puccini had a wonderful sense of the theatre and knocking off his heroines was just part of value adding to the evenings entertainment.


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## Couac Addict (Oct 16, 2013)

alan davis said:


> C'mon guys. I've seen umpteen productions of Puccinis operas. Sure Liu carks it as does Tosca, Manon, Mimi, Cio Cio San and Suor Angelica. But the curtain comes down then rises again and miracle of miracle, they're all alive again, happy and smiling. Puccini had a wonderful sense of the theatre and knocking off his heroines was just part of value adding to the evenings entertainment.


...then there's that regie production where Mimi dies in the first act. Who's the misogynist _now?_


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## Orfeo (Nov 14, 2013)

Hoffmann said:


> Don't you think a stronger case can be made for Brünnhilde? She crossed her father and paid the price (even if she did have to persuade him not to proceed with his first choice of punishment). She does get double-crossed by Siegfried, but gets her revenge. What makes the Immolation scene so powerful (at least when stage respectfully and not by some really crazed Regie guy), is her selfless sacrifice for the good of mankind - not just pining for Siegfried. She has her ups and downs, but is a strong-willed woman.
> 
> I don't think labeling composers as misogynist is particularly enlightening. Male-Female relationships were vastly different in the 18th and 19th centuries (also known as the Victorian era). Both Puccini's and most of Wagner's operas are tragedies, and someone typically has to die for something to be considered 'tragic'.
> 
> Using the above criteria, Shakespeare also would have to be considered a misogynist, as his women certainly follow the model. I think there is such a thing as "artistic license", which would allow composers and authors to exaggerate circumstances to make their point with audiences.


I ditto that. In many respects, operas mirror society and often, its realities. Look at Russian operas for instance (particularly Shostakovich's "Lady Macbeth," which underscores how women were treated back then). Tchaikovsky's "Maid of Orleans" shows Joan a strong-willed woman, but torn between duty and her feelings for Lionel. Fibich's "Sarka" has the similar dichotomy.


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## Orfeo (Nov 14, 2013)

HumphreyAppleby said:


> Puccini wasn't a misogynist. It's quite possible that he held some opinions that we today consider sexist. But Puccini wrote about the suffering of women because that's who he could identify with. He was widely criticised for being "effeminate" in a very masculine 20th century Italy. Back then they would have laughed at the notion of Puccini being a misogynist: they would have boasted about being misogynists themselves (they being the Torrefranca's and the fascists). Joss Whedon talks about how it is sometimes easier for men to empathize with women when it comes to certain emotions: it's simply uncomfortable for some men to relate to other men when it comes to their feelings of vulnerability, fear, depression, or sometimes love. Puccini was men who felt all of those emotions very strongly, who was indeed tormented by them. It's no surprise, then, that the women in his operas, the characters who are the closest to him, suffer terribly as he did. Puccini was very poor as a student in Milano, and you could look at Mimi as representing the innocence that was taken from him by that experience. So Minnie isn't suffering because she's a woman, she's suffering because he did, and she's him.
> 
> Also, leaving the amateur psychoanalysis by the wayside, notice that in his operas, it is _always_ the women who are the doers. The men mostly just sing about how in love they are. The women get the complex characterization, and the bear the brunt of the action. The possible exceptions to this are Michele and Gianni Schicchi, but _Trittico_ and _Turandot_ are so different from his earlier operas...


I think what you said applies to Tchaikovsky (like, for instance, in "Maid of Orleans").


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## Tehzim (May 19, 2013)

Just from the few things I've read and heard I think you would be remiss in overlooking characters in Puccini that AREN'T weak heroines. Tosca and Turandot are both strong women. Suzuki is a great second (and the only leaven) to Butterfly. 

As for Butterfly she's ultimately undone by her pride. She refuses the love of a suitor that would take her (child included) in spite of everything she's said and done. She kills herself rather than deal with her wounded pride. She may seem just naive, but after 3 years waiting for Pinkerton she is nearly deranged (the way she threatens to kill people who say he won't come back) and held together by the steel core of her pride and belief in being an "American Wife." It's not misogyny it's tragedy. That's why people cry at Un bel di vedremo. Butterfly has pinned it all on the future and she loses. If anything it's misandric with the callous Pinkerton.


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## Flamme (Dec 30, 2012)

Ingélou said:


> Madame Butterfly is hard-done-by, but I see her as a strong proud character with a keen sense of honour.


Its funny how sometimes even women see those characters as strong and independent but some men nope...
I guess there are lot of forms of ''independence'' not all aggressive and ''in the face'' as men see it...


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## HumphreyAppleby (Apr 11, 2013)

Tehzim said:


> Just from the few things I've read and heard I think you would be remiss in overlooking characters in Puccini that AREN'T weak heroines. Tosca and Turandot are both strong women. Suzuki is a great second (and the only leaven) to Butterfly.


And, of course, there is Minnie. She is a fully realized, self-sufficient, tough-yet-sensitive woman, whose greatest wish for her own future is to be educated as an equal to a man. And when that future of hers is threatened, she takes things into her own hands, and uses a combination of strength and intellect to resolve a complex and dangerous situation without any help from a man (Sonora helps, but only after she first convinces him). And, while she's at it, she also happens to bring spiritual salvation to a bandit and an entire frontier community, you know, how you do. And check out the dialogue between her and Rance:

Rance: Bada, donna, alle tue parole. (Mind your words, woman)
Minnie: Che puoi farmi? Non ti temo! (What can you do to me? I'm not afraid of you!)

In this opera Puccini was the one who was primarily responsible in shaping the characters, plot line, themes, and in many instances, the text. (The primary librettist Civinni said that the libretto might as well be credited to Puccini himself.) The denouement in which Minnie, the independent woman, is not only the hero, but the savior figure, was Puccini's idea, and has no precedent in Belasco's play. I just don't see how Puccini could possibly be seen as a misogynist if one is bearing all this in mind.


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## mountmccabe (May 1, 2013)

_La fanciulla del West_ certainly stands out, not only amongst Puccini's operas but in general. He certainly may have noticed how his first half dozen operas were all focused on the suffering of women.

I think a better question is "Are Puccini's operas misogynistic?" This way one can praise _La fanciulla_ and still have concerns about _Madame Butterfly_ and the others. Additionally this concerns not the internal thoughts of a (long dead) person but works that were the collaboration of many people including the librettists and the creators of the original stories. Maybe the problem was more from Fontana and Illica & Giacosa.

Also in the example above Cio Cio San is undone by her pride but it was Puccini, et. al that wrote her as prideful. Saying that she deserved or caused her fate is to miss the point that she is not real. She was written as prideful so that she would suffer.

Puccini is not alone in this but he is often singled out because the heroine suffers and dies in each of his first six operas and because of the huge popularity of the last three of these.


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

What we need to remember is that the society in which these operas took place itself was misogynistic to women who didn't fit into the good daughter/good wife/good mother mold - people like single working women (Mimi), fatherless adolescent girls with no money (Cio-Cio San), opera singers (Tosca), unmarried mothers (Suor Angelica). Within those constraints Puccini creates strong and interesting characters with their own wills and their own strength.


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## Tehzim (May 19, 2013)

mountmccabe said:


> Also in the example above Cio Cio San is undone by her pride but it was Puccini, et. al that wrote her as prideful. Saying that she deserved or caused her fate is to miss the point that she is not real. She was written as prideful so that she would suffer.
> 
> Puccini is not alone in this but he is often singled out because the heroine suffers and dies in each of his first six operas and because of the huge popularity of the last three of these.


That's Butterfly's tragic fatal flaw, just like many tragic characters before her. And she is master of her world and her home while Pinkerton is away. She does fine for 3 whole years as a single mother. If she's finally undone by one last indignity that doesn't mean that the author is misogynistic.


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