# Other composers I enjoy



## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

Occasionally I give the impression that I only like Wagner. Not true. Other composers I enjoy:

- Bach (contrapuntal works)
- Mozart (operas mainly)
- Beethoven (late works mainly)
- Stravinsky (early works)
- Debussy
- Ravel
- Berlioz
- R. Strauss
- Prokofiev
- Shostakovich
- Franck
- Scriabin

I am also "working on" Mahler, Schoenberg, Handel, and Messiaen. I don't particularly like them, but I want to like them. Feel free to suggest recordings.


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## Kevin Pearson (Aug 14, 2009)

Couchie said:


> Occasionally I give the impression that I only like Wagner.


No!!! Really? lol

Kevin


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

Couchie said:


> ...
> I am also "working on" Mahler, Schoenberg, ...and Messiaen. I don't particularly like them, but I want to like them. Feel free to suggest recordings.


Well they were all Wagnerites of sorts, at one stage or another. But the first two also influenced by Brahms, the other 'titan.' So Mahler's link with Brahms is the piano quartet movement, and Arnie's is 'Transfigured night' (although that also owes alot to Wagner).

The things that got me into Mahler is Sym.#1 and also his song-cycles, into Schoenberg his 'Pierrot Lunaire' and 'Violin Concerto' (Hilary Hahn's recording), latterly 'Transfigured Night' (someone at the time said it was like I think Parsifal with the ink smeared, referring to its ending in a fuzzy key, I think D major) and with Messiaen, 'Quartet for the End of time' (the recording with his second wife, Yvonne Loriod is great, part of it is on youtube), also check out his song cycles, eg. 'Harawi' is a resetting of the Tristan myth into the Peruvian Andes.

As to Handel, I always liked him, had no problem, he comes across as pretty easy to listen to for me. He's great, in my experience most people like him. So?


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

Here are some suggestions of music by the three composers you mentioned you are working on.


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## aleazk (Sep 30, 2011)

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> Here are some suggestions of music by the three composers you mentioned you are working on.


lol, but he did not mention Ligeti!.


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

aleazk said:


> lol, but he did not mention Ligeti!.


He spelt it wrong.


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## brianwalker (Dec 9, 2011)

*Haydn:* Takacs recording of Opus 76, 74

*Mahler:* Kubelik Cycle

*Verdi:* Otello, Aida (Karajan)

*Bruckner: *7 - Knappertsbusch 1949 VPO. 8 - Knappertsbusch 1962 Munich,

*Weber: *Der Freischutz: Kleiber

*Schubert*: 9th Sinfonie - Knappertsbusch 1957 VPO


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## campy (Aug 16, 2012)

Couchie said:


> I am also "working on" Mahler, *Schoenberg*, Handel, and Messiaen. I don't particularly like them, but I want to like them. Feel free to suggest recordings.


Try Karajan's recording of _Verklärte Nacht_.


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## Crudblud (Dec 29, 2011)

This is wonderful news! I'll pitch in on the Messiaen front.

_Turangalîla-Symphonie/L'ascension_ - Antoni Wit; Polish National Radio Symphony Orchestra [2CD, Naxos]

_Quatuor pour la fin du temps_ - Alain Moglia; Michel Arrignon; René Benedetti; Jean-Claude Henriot [Cybelia]

_St. François d'Assise_ - Kent Nagano; Hallé Orchestra; José van Dam; Dawn Upshaw [4CD, Deutsche Grammphon]

_La Transfiguration de Notre Seigneur Jésus-Christ_ - Myung-Whun Chung; Orchestre Philharmonique et Choeur de Radio France [2CD, Deutsche Grammophon]

_Vignt regards sur l'enfant-Jésus_ - Yvonne Loriod [2CD, Erato]

_La Nativité du Seigneur_ - Olivier Latry [Deutsche Grammphon]

And one on DVD:
_St. François d'Assise_ - Ingo Metzmacher; Hague Philharmonic Orchestra; Rod Gilfry; Camilla Tilling [Opus Arte]

Most of the "major" works in what I feel to be their best recordings. The Wit, Nagano and Latry especially are light years ahead of their respective competition, although Metzmacher's St. François DVD on BBC's Opus Arte label is highly recommended.

Latry's La Nativité is recommended with the caveat that you probably won't be able to find it without getting his complete Messiaen organ works box. I was doing a little research for this post and I can't seem to find an individual disc, but still it deserves recommendation.


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## Crudblud (Dec 29, 2011)

Schoenberg:

_Pelleas und Melisande_ - Herbert von Karajan; Berliner Philharmoniker [Deutsche Grammophon]

_Gurre-Lieder/Vier Orchesterlieder_ - Pierre Boulez; BBC Symphony Orchestra [2CD, Sony Classical]

_Pierrot Lunaire/Fünf Orchesterstücke/Ode an Napoleon Buonaparte_ - Hans Rosbaud; Sinfonieorchester des Südwestfunks, Baden-Baden [Wergo]

_Moses und Aron_ - Herbert Kegel; Rundfunk Sinfonieorchester Leipzig; Werner Haseleu; Reiner Goldberg [2CD, Berlin Classics]

Related:
_Berg Opera Extracts / Webern Orchestral Works_ - Herbert Kegel; Rundfunk-Sinfonieorchester Leipzig; Hanne-Lore Kuhse [Berlin Classics]


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## Bas (Jul 24, 2012)

Handel has some very great opera's too (some that I like include):

 Agrippina
 Julius Caesar

Might broaden your opera taste (I need to work on liking Wagner, but it is gonna be difficult I think... )

And maybe on the way to liking Mahler, you should start with Bruckner, or consider Bruckner too. Mahler has attended lessons by Bruckner. I must say that I personally like Bruckner more then Mahler...


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## Prodromides (Mar 18, 2012)

Couchie said:


> Stravinsky (early works)


Hi Couchie:

If you already enjoy early Stravinsky, why not explore his late-period dodecaphonic works (especially between 1959 & 1964)?

My special mentions are:


Movements for Piano and Orchestra ('58/'59)
Abraham and Isaac (1963)
Elegy for J.F.K. (1964)

As for recommendations on Messiaen, I think of 2 orchestral works which are significant with respect to the development of Messiaen's non-religious facets of birdsong and instrumental timbre:


Reveil des oiseaux (1953), music courtesy of the birds ... but not music for the birds. 
Chronochromie (1960) is perhaps my favorite opus by Messiaen, who, over age 50 at this time, was still very much at the vanguard of modernity.

The versions of the above on DG with Pierre Boulez and the Cleveland Orchestra are both worth acquiring (if they're still on the market)


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## Crudblud (Dec 29, 2011)

Mahler Symphonies:

_Symphony No. 1/Lieder eines Fahrenden Gesellen_ - Rafael Kubelík; Symphonieorchester des Bayerischen Rundfunks; Dietrich Fischer-Dieskau [Deutsche Grammophon]

_Symphony No. 2_ - Klaus Tennstedt; London Philharmonic Orchestra; Jard van Nes; Yvonne Kenny [2CD, LPO Live]

_Symphony No. 3/Kindertotenlieder_ - Leonard Bernstein; New York Philharmonic Orchestra; Martha Lipton; Jennie Tourel [2CD, Sony Classical]

_Mahler: Symphony No. 4 / Schreker: Vorspiel zu einem Drama_ - Michael Gielen; SWR Sinfonieorchester Baden-Baden und Freiburg; Christine Wittlesey [Hänssler Classic]

_Symphony No. 5_ - Leonard Bernstein; Wiener Philharmoniker [Deutsche Grammophon]

_Symphony No. 6_ - Thomas Sanderling; St. Petersburg Symphony Orchestra [2CD, RS Real Sound]

_Symphony No. 7/Kindertotenlieder_ - Giuseppe Sinopoli; Philharmonia Orchestra; Bryn Terfel [2CD, Deutsche Grammophon]

_Symphony No. 8_ - Jascha Horenstein; London Symphony Orchestra (+ one million other organisations and soloists) [2CD, BBC Legends]

_Das Lied von der Erde_ - Rafael Kubelík; Symphonieorchester des Bayerischen Rundfunks; Janet Baker; Waldemar Kmentt [Audite]

_Symphony No. 9_ - Leonard Bernstein; Berliner Philharmoniker [Deutsche Grammophon]


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## Chi_townPhilly (Apr 21, 2007)

*An interesting angle...*

Another way of looking at this question is "what music should a *good Wagnerian* be expected to know?"

A good Wagnerian should be expected to know his Beethoven, especially late-period Beethoven, so we see that the form holds here. Also, he'll know his Mozart operas... and be conversant with the music of Weber- music that was influential to the early Wagner.

Even though one could write a monograph about their differences, Bruckner-enthusiasts will be disproportionately represented among the ranks of Wagner fans. The "penumbras formed by emanations" (to use a judicial phrase) in Wagner's art lead many to Debussy... so that portion of your listening is according to form, too.

Among major Russian composers, I'd argue that Shostakovich shows the most clear Wagner influence.

A lot of Wagner aficionados show similar love to Mahler. The performers who feel this way are too numerous to mention... but one prominent *non*-performer who's made invaluable contributions to the study of both is Deryck Cooke.

(so much more I could say about this... I expect I'll visit this thread again---)


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

Just backtracking, re this comment, I did it in haste so I will clarify -



Sid James said:


> ...As to Handel, I always liked him, had no problem, he comes across as pretty easy to listen to for me. He's great, in my experience most people like him. So?


All I meant was that Handel comes across to me as 'easy listening' compared to Bach, and I don't mean that badly, just how I see it. So what I mean is if someone likes Bach, Handel is less demanding than him across the board. I like Handel's choral way better than Bach's.

& re other links, once I started to understand 'Pierrot Lunaire' it was not a great leap from that to things like song-cycles by Messiaen and Boulez. Here I made a thread mentioning that kind of 'lineage' that 'Pierrot' created: http://www.talkclassical.com/18902-lineages-classical-music.html

The lineage with Mahler and Schoenberg, and to a degree Messiaen, is that they all traced their art back to Bach. With Mahler, its many things, not only the contrupuntal endings summing things up in many of his symphonies, but also eg. the Baroque suite style structure of eg. his 5th symphony, the quick dancy movement as the 'pivot' which all else revolves around, it thematically looks forwards as well as back for the work overall. Of course, Beethoven's thematic unity was influential here too.

Schoenberg did works with some link to neo-classicism, eg. the 'Suite' and 'Serenade,' but also his concertos for violin and piano. Then with Messiaen, when he was in the camp composing the 'Quartet for the end of Time,' he had with him scores of Bach and Webern, both decisive influences on him at that time. & some of my earlier views on 'Harawi' here: http://www.talkclassical.com/1005-current-listening-865.html#post242268. Also check out Messiaen's 'Poemes pour Mi,' a great song cycle which does have some of Schoenberg's sprechtstimme (pioneered in 'Pierrot') and the Naxos recording done with a German soprano specialising in late Romantic area kind of 'pushes' this music's links to that tradition. Here earlier comments of mine on that: http://www.talkclassical.com/1005-current-listening-380.html#post104551 (my opinion on Ravel being 'pallid' in that post is utter rubbish, I see that now!).


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## tdc (Jan 17, 2011)

Franck seems really out of place to me on that list.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

tdc said:


> Franck seems really out of place to me on that list.


He was influenced by Wagner (& probably Liszt too, his tone poems esp.) and Franck was considered quite a progressive composer in his day. He's got some similarities with Bruckner too, being a brilliant organist and pedagogue.


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## bigshot (Nov 22, 2011)

Crudblud said:


> _Turangalîla-Symphonie/L'ascension_ - Antoni Wit; Polish National Radio Symphony Orchestra [2CD, Naxos]


i have a different recording of this (Decca?) and I was listening to it the other day. It sounds like a Universal horror movie.


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