# Beethoven symphony no. 5 - fate or politics?



## pcnog11 (Nov 14, 2016)

I come across this link:






Worth viewing and rethinking about Beethoven symphony no. 5. It is about fate or politics? Maybe it is both.


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## pcnog11 (Nov 14, 2016)

pcnog11 said:


> I come across this link:
> 
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> 
> ...


Sorry, this is the right link:


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## MarkW (Feb 16, 2015)

Not a bad documentary -- doesn't say anything about Beethoven we don't already know, but says it very well. However, to try to impute a particular meaning to a particular work absent a correlative (like the Prisoner's Chorus from Fidelio, or the text of Goethe's Egmont) is an exercise in guesswork, and enhances one's understanding of it only to the extent one is succeptible to want/need it. As Toscanini said about the Eroica, to him it's merely allegro con brio.


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

The Fate idea began with Anton Schindler's claim that Beethoven explained the opening motive of the Fifth Symphony with the words: "Thus Fate raps on the door." Adolph Bernhard Marx popularized this interpretation in an interpretation of the Fifth in the book he published on B's life and work in 1859. This is likely where Tchaikovsky heard it and why he began describing the portentous opening themes of his symphonies (both 4 and 5) as representations of Fate. 

The thing about Fate, or a struggle against and victory over Fate, however, is that it is too vague a notion to count as a specific interpretation. Fate just means any powerful extrapersonal force. For Tchaikovsky it could mean homosexuality, for Beethoven it might mean the onset of deafness. As a way of organizing the moods or states of being in a multimovement work, struggle with and overcoming Fate just means progress from a stormy, conflicted opening movement in the minor mode to a more upbeat finale in the major mode. In practice it is really more of a formal description than an interpretation of content.


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

pcnog11 said:


> I come across this link:
> 
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> 
> ...


The Toscanini quote seems appropriate:

Toscanini - regarding the First mvt of Beethoven Symphony "Eroica"
_*"To some it is Napoleon, to some it is a philosophical struggle, to me it is allegro con brio."*_
Arturo Toscanini


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Heck148 said:


> The Toscanini quote seems appropriate:
> 
> Toscanini - regarding the First mvt of Beethoven Symphony "Eroica"
> _*"To some it is Napoleon, to some it is a philosophical struggle, to me it is allegro con brio."*_
> Arturo Toscanini


Yes. This is a very famous Toscanini quote and directly to the point!!

Not surprisingly, Arturo Toscanini has recorded (studio and concert hall) some of the greatest performances ever of the Beethoven Eroica Symphony.


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## bharbeke (Mar 4, 2013)

From a musician in Muppet Treasure Island:

"Just play the gig, man. Never get involved in politics."


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Fate or politics? Neither.

Arturo Toscanini had it right, as posted above. He saw the first movement of the Beethoven Eroica as notes on a page, played at allegro con brio.

The Beethoven Fifth should be viewed the same way. Notes on a page, played in tempo, in inspired fashion.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

What Beethoven's 5th is _really _about.


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## Guest (Dec 15, 2016)

KenOC said:


> What Beethoven's 5th is _really _about.


woman emancipation?


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

If inexorable fate or military conquest arise for you as you listen, that's legitimate for you. There's a universe of musical meaning which concepts of "fate or politics" cannot encompass, but of which they can be expressions and associations. "Allegro con brio" is an instruction, and a vague one at that, which says absolutely nothing about the music. I've never understood the spartan fetish for talking about music as if it were nonsensical to recognize anything in it but a pattern of noises. Beethoven was a composer who altered our concept of the symphony, of what a symphony could _mean_. He wasn't a cake decorator.


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## Alfacharger (Dec 6, 2013)

KenOC said:


> What Beethoven's 5th is _really _about.


More like a game!


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## ArtMusic (Jan 5, 2013)

Beethoven would have composed a 5th symphony anyway. The social and political circumstance shaped it to what it became to some extent.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

bharbeke said:


> From a musician in Muppet Treasure Island:
> 
> "Just play the gig, man. Never get involved in politics."


Nominated for post of the year!


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## brianvds (May 1, 2013)

It could also simply have been accident...






One can never take Schindler too seriously. Story I read somewhere is that B. got the idea for that famous four note motif from watching a blacksmith's hammer. Of course, he could still have had lots of other ideas as to its meaning. That very funny clip posted by KenOC demonstrates something you see in classical music all the time, especially in sonata form pieces: there is a sense of narrative, of a story being told. But it is a purely musical story, into which you could read lots of extraneous meaning as you see fit. That's part of what makes it so great, and why people keep on enjoying it centuries later.

For Schindler it was fate, for Beethoven, perhaps encroaching deafness, for 1870 Parisians, Bismarck, for the class of 1940, Hitler's bombers.

Even in our day, one could infuse a bit of meaning into that ominous musical argument...


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

brianvds said:


> It could also simply have been accident...
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> ...


Oh yeah, Schindler is notoriously unreliable, a fabricator. The blacksmith's hammer is obvious nonsense to anyone who has ever tried to swing a hammer Allegro con brio.


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## pcnog11 (Nov 14, 2016)

Woodduck said:


> If inexorable fate or military conquest arise for you as you listen, that's legitimate for you. There's a universe of musical meaning which concepts of "fate or politics" cannot encompass, but of which they can be expressions and associations. "Allegro con brio" is an instruction, and a vague one at that, which says absolutely nothing about the music. I've never understood the spartan fetish for talking about music as if it were nonsensical to recognize anything in it but a pattern of noises. Beethoven was a composer who altered our concept of the symphony, of what a symphony could _mean_. He wasn't a cake decorator.


Well said Woodduck! "Allegro con brio" is only for the first movement, we are trying to evaluate the symphony as a whole. No matter what the views of the listener is, it is important for us to realize the our thoughts, actions, decisions and to an certain extent, life, could be influenced by such a great piece of music.


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## Bettina (Sep 29, 2016)

I'm going to be that annoying person who doesn't answer the question directly.  I think the answer depends on how we define musical meaning. (I warned you that this would be an unsatisfying answer...) :lol:

If musical meaning is based on the composer's intentions, then we'll never know if the Fifth Symphony represents fate, politics, or something else entirely. Apart from Schindler's unreliable statement, Beethoven never said anything about the meaning of this symphony. 

BUT! There's another possible source of musical meaning: the way in which listeners perceive a work. In other words, the reception of a musical work. According to this definition, each listener decides what a given musical work means to him or her.

For A.B. Marx, the Fifth Symphony symbolized fate. For Toscanini, the Fifth Symphony was an abstract series of notes. According to the "listener-oriented" definition of meaning, both Marx and Toscanini were correct. They were both accurately describing what the work meant to them.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Bettina said:


> I'm going to be that annoying person who doesn't answer the question directly.  I think the answer depends on how we define musical meaning. (I warned you that this would be an unsatisfying answer...) :lol:
> 
> If musical meaning is based on the composer's intentions, then we'll never know if the Fifth Symphony represents fate, politics, or something else entirely. Apart from Schindler's unreliable statement, Beethoven never said anything about the meaning of this symphony.
> 
> ...


A very fine post, Bettina. Gets right to the heart of the matter.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Heck148 said:


> The Toscanini quote seems appropriate:
> 
> Toscanini - regarding the First mvt of Beethoven Symphony "Eroica"
> _*"To some it is Napoleon, to some it is a philosophical struggle, to me it is allegro con brio."*_
> Arturo Toscanini


Yet Napoleon was somehow in the composition. Even after LvB had erased the name of Napoleon from the title page he still dedicated it 'To the memory of a great man'. So it's not as 'pure music' as Toscanini would have us believe!


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Bettina said:


> For A.B. Marx, the Fifth Symphony symbolized fate. *For Toscanini, the Fifth Symphony was an abstract series of notes. According to the "listener-oriented" definition of meaning, both Marx and Toscanini were correct. They were both accurately describing what the work meant to them.*


I don't believe for a minute that for Toscanini the Fifth was nothing but an abstract series of notes. His comment was meant only to challenge popular, excessively literal views of musical meaning.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Woodduck said:


> I don't believe for a minute that for Toscanini the Fifth was nothing but an abstract series of notes. His comment was meant only to challenge popular, excessively literal views of musical meaning.


Toscanini was a stickler for following every possible direction in a score. His meticulousness in score preparation was legendary. The composer's intentions written into the score were everything.

He didn't care about extraneous garbage from know it all music critics and commentators.

Because of that, I take Toscanini at his word.

He recognized the 5th for what it is, great music without having to label it with a "program".


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## Bettina (Sep 29, 2016)

Woodduck said:


> I don't believe for a minute that for Toscanini the Fifth was nothing but an abstract series of notes. His comment was meant only to challenge popular, excessively literal views of musical meaning.


Hmm...if indeed that is the case about Toscanini's statement, then perhaps I should add another nuance to my definitions of musical meaning. In addition to "composer-centered" meanings and "listener-centered" meanings, there might be rhetorical meanings. (Not sure if that's the best term for it, but it'll have to do for now.)

A "rhetorical meaning" would come from a claim that is not meant to be taken literally. In other words, a rhetorical claim, in which the listener exaggerates his actual opinions in order to make a point and shake things up.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

For Toscanini, the notes of any Beethoven Symphony were not simply an "abstract" series of notes.

If they were, his Beethoven performances wouldn't have been filled with white-hot intensity.
Instead, his performances would have been insufferably dull.

He simply didn't believe in attaching "programs" to the music.

I believe he viewed Beethoven's 5th and 3rd symphonies as glorious musical statements and interpreted them that way.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

As a matter of fact, both Toscanini and Beethoven shared a distaste for labeling music.

I'm sure both Beethoven and Toscanini would have voted to get rid of the Beethoven piano sonata label, "Moonlight".


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

hpowders said:


> For Toscanini, the notes of any Beethoven Symphony were not simply an "abstract" series of notes.
> 
> If they were, his Beethoven performances wouldn't have been filled with white-hot intensity.
> Instead, his performances would have been insufferably dull.
> ...


Yes, well said - Toscanini played the music, without a programmed idea in his head. the music provides its own "program", its own "meaning" or direction - by means of melody, harmony, rhythm, tempo, orchestration, etc, etc. The composer will take us on his own sonic journey thru the work...a great piece like LvB 3 or 5 has its own route established by the art of the composer. It does not require an extraneous, extra-musical program or idea to be effective, tho the listener is perfectly free to establish one for him/herself.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Heck148 said:


> Yes, well said - Toscanini played the music, without a programmed idea in his head. the music provides its own "program", its own "meaning" or direction - by means of melody, harmony, rhythm, tempo, orchestration, etc, etc. The composer will take us on his own sonic journey thru the work...a great piece like LvB 3 or 5 has its own route established by the art of the composer. It does not require an extraneous, extra-musical program or idea to be effective, tho the listener is perfectly free to establish one for him/herself.


Thank you Heck148. I appreciate that. 

Too bad we can't be transported back in time to experience first-hand, Arturo Toscanini leading the New York Philharmonic at Carnegie Hall in glorious performances of Beethoven's Third and Fifth Symphonies.

So frustrating to have to listen on CDs to obviously great Toscanini performances recorded as if in a phone booth.


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

hpowders said:


> Thank you Heck148. I appreciate that.
> 
> Too bad we can't be transported back in time to experience first-hand, Arturo Toscanini leading the New York Philharmonic at Carnegie Hall in glorious performances of Beethoven's Third and Fifth Symphonies.
> So frustrating to have to listen on CDs to obviously great Toscanini performances recorded as if in a phone booth.


Well, it's the best we've got....you can certainly hear the flow, the intensity, the inevitable direction of the music. the sound is certainly not the greatest, but the superior quality of the performances still comes thru.


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## pcnog11 (Nov 14, 2016)

Bettina said:


> I'm going to be that annoying person who doesn't answer the question directly.  I think the answer depends on how we define musical meaning. (I warned you that this would be an unsatisfying answer...) :lol:
> 
> If musical meaning is based on the composer's intentions, then we'll never know if the Fifth Symphony represents fate, politics, or something else entirely. Apart from Schindler's unreliable statement, Beethoven never said anything about the meaning of this symphony.
> 
> ...


Bettina, thanks for the post. I think this is the meaning for true art. No two person will have the exact same views to a piece of art. An artist always have an "open" dimension of interpretation. For me, I think the "fate" aspect of symphony no. 5 is the meaning that Beethoven is trying to convey, because that is what I was educated when I learn about classical music. However, others do not need to agree with me 100%. Beauty is in the ears of the listeners!


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Heck148 said:


> Well, it's the best we've got....you can certainly hear the flow, the intensity, the inevitable direction of the music. the sound is certainly not the greatest, but the superior quality of the performances still comes thru.


I have so many sets of the legendary Toscanini Beethoven cycle from 1939, each one promising "improved" or the "best ever" or "revelatory" sound. However, any improvements from one set to another are miniscule. Great performances, though, yes indeed!

So nice to hear a bit more relaxed Toscanini in the 1939 cycle, before his late period "speed up".


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## pcnog11 (Nov 14, 2016)

If it is just "allegro con brio", we do not need a conductor or an orchestra for that matter. The piece can be played on a midi notation program at the pace Beethoven specified. No offense.....


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## brianvds (May 1, 2013)

EdwardBast said:


> Oh yeah, Schindler is notoriously unreliable, a fabricator. The blacksmith's hammer is obvious nonsense to anyone who has ever tried to swing a hammer Allegro con brio.


Actually I'm not sure the hammer story is from Schindler, and it is mundane enough to strike me as more credible than all that stuff about Fate. Though I do suppose it's easier to knock on a door _Allegro con brio_ than to swing a hammer that way. Perhaps it was a young apprentice blacksmith, using a small hammer, or a very strong blacksmith using a large hammer, or B. just greatly increased the tempo from _Molto ponderoso_....


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Could we be thinking of a different hammer? "Karl Czerny wrote that Beethoven heard a bird – the yellowhammer we hear in the Sixth Symphony – gave him the motif."


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## Funny (Nov 30, 2013)

As to where Beethoven got that infamous short-short-short-LONG motive... this is as good a point as any to note that this motive shows up in two out of every thres symphonies of one particular composer... Haydn... Beethoven's teacher. Oh, but what am I saying, I forgot that Beethoven "learned nothing" from Haydn! Never mind. Yeah, it was probably "fate."


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