# Similarity between a Tchaikovsky melody and Wagner melody - Coincidence?



## adriesba (Dec 30, 2019)

Sorry, if this is out of place. I didn't know where this question should go.

Anyway...

I remember when I saw _Sleeping Beauty _years ago I thought a certain melody sounded familiar. I just had to ask. This is driving me crazy!

Listen to this melody (first minute or so):






This is from the beginning of Act II, but I believe the melody also is heard later in the act, at least a modified version of it. Notice the horns and listen especially to how the melody is at about 0:48-1:00.

Now for the Wagner (melody starts at 6:45):






This is from Act I of _Tannhäuser_. The melody is also heard at the end of the act. 
Notice again - horns!

I could just say it was chance, but in *both* pieces there is a *hunting party* during the scene the melody is used! What is going on? Of course, if it comes down to it, Wagner was first. 

But really, is there a connection, or is this just a coincidence?


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## annaw (May 4, 2019)

I was expecting some brief quotation but oh my, that was quite a clear one :lol: ! Tchaikovsky had a sort of love and hate relationship with Wagner, slightly similar as Debussy but IMO he was a bit more open about liking Wagner's music. Apparently, as a music critic, he had even visited Bayreuth and had admired multiple Wagner performances. I wouldn't exclude the possibility that this is an actual connection. Debussy seems to quote _Parsifal_ in his _Pelleas_ almost as clearly and he claimed to avoid Wagner's influences.

I found a long article about Tchaikovsky and Wagner which might interest you: http://en.tchaikovsky-research.net/pages/Richard_Wagner

EDIT: Of course I cannot reject the possibility that both of them quote someone third or that it indeed was a coincidence though it sounds a slight bit too clear to my ears, at least.


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## adriesba (Dec 30, 2019)

annaw said:


> I was expecting some brief quotation but oh my, that was quite a clear one :lol: ! Tchaikovsky had a sort of love and hate relationship with Wagner, slightly similar as Debussy but IMO he was a bit more open about liking Wagner's music. Apparently, as a music critic, he had even visited Bayreuth and had admired multiple Wagner performances. I wouldn't exclude the possibility that this is an actual connection. Debussy seems to quote _Parsifal_ in his _Pelleas_ almost as clearly and he claimed to avoid Wagner's influences.
> 
> I found a long article about Tchaikovsky and Wagner which might interest you: http://en.tchaikovsky-research.net/pages/Richard_Wagner


Interesting article! I didn't know about Tchaikovsky's apparent interest in Wagner's music. It looks like Tchaikovsky apparently liked _Tannhäuser _and _Lohengrin_. The article mentions that Tchaikovsky saw _Tannhäuser _in 1876, 1888, and 1892. He finished composing _Sleeping Beauty _in 1889. So he would have seen the opera twice before then. 1888 is the year right before he finished the ballet. Thus, that melody could have been fresh in his mind as he composed the ballet.


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## Fabulin (Jun 10, 2019)

Wagner in turn paraphrased him in the march for the king of Bavaria


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## Ethereality (Apr 6, 2019)

I don't really hear much melody. Just a bunch of noises with an arpeggio. 

Usually how it is with Wagner anyway.


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## Zhdanov (Feb 16, 2016)

adriesba said:


> But really, is there a connection, or is this just a coincidence?


connection is there, for example the Swan Lake main leitmotiv derives from a Lohengrin motif questioning the shiny armour knight's anonymity; a question expressed in the music and its melody.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

I noticed this many years ago. Too close to be coincidence.

The article on Tchaikovsky's attitudes toward Wagner is fascinating. As with his remarks on Brahms, one finds perceptive appreciation mixed with incomprehension. I had quite a few laughs.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Zhdanov said:


> connection is there, for example the Swan Lake main leitmotiv derives from a Lohengrin motif questioning the shiny armour knight's anonymity; a question expressed in the music and its melody.


Nice observation. The drop of a fifth followed by a stepwise ascent, as heard in _Swan Lake_, occurs in several important Wagner motifs - in _Tristan_ ("der Tag"), the _Ring_ (the Gibichungs) and _Parsifal_ (suffering) as well as _Lohengrin_ - and always has a connection with evil, uncertainty, or pain.


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## adriesba (Dec 30, 2019)

Zhdanov said:


> connection is there, for example the Swan Lake main leitmotiv derives from a Lohengrin motif questioning the shiny armour knight's anonymity; a question expressed in the music and its melody.


Aha! I think I know what Wagner motif you mean. Interesting. And there is a non-musical connection there too - swans!


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