# The Goldilocks Principle



## Ingélou (Feb 10, 2013)

Goldilocks found that Papa Bear's porridge was too hot, Mama Bear's porridge was too cold, but Baby Bear's porridge was 'just right'. 

This is a discussion thread for music that you've found 'just right', as opposed to similar music that it 'too whatever'. It's only about personal taste - your 'too whatever' will probably be someone else's 'just right'. 

I am simply interested in reading about the experience of others, and hopefully in sampling some 'just rights' or 'whatevers' & discovering new pieces to like. 

Thanks in advance for any replies. :tiphat:


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## Ingélou (Feb 10, 2013)

Category - Popular Operas that I have Seen, re my Emotional Response :devil::

La Boheme - too sentimental

Aida - fails to engage me

Madame Butterfly - Just right.


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## Nereffid (Feb 6, 2013)

I've found that there's a small number of composers that I simply see as "my" composers. I don't necessarily like everything they've written, but there's something in their idiom that greatly appeals to me: Beethoven, Liszt, Mahler, and Vaughan Williams. Well actually, I _do_ like everything Mahler wrote, but then again he didn't write that many works. It's also amusing to find Mahler and Vaughan Williams together on that list, considering VW once referred to Mahler as "a tolerable imitation of a composer".

Edited to add: _Ah, I took so long to write that response that I missed your follow-up example! I shall have to come up with a similar sort of answer._


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## Headphone Hermit (Jan 8, 2014)

Ingélou said:


> Category - Popular Operas that I have Seen, re my Emotional Response :devil::
> 
> La Boheme - too sentimental
> 
> ...


I think you need to be a bit more careful what you put on your porridge, Petal! :lol:


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## Ingélou (Feb 10, 2013)

Nereffid said:


> I've found that there's a small number of composers that I simply see as "my" composers. I don't necessarily like everything they've written, but there's something in their idiom that greatly appeals to me: Beethoven, Liszt, Mahler, and Vaughan Williams. Well actually, I _do_ like everything Mahler wrote, but then again he didn't write that many works. It's also amusing to find Mahler and Vaughan Williams together on that list, considering VW once referred to Mahler as "a tolerable imitation of a composer".
> 
> *Edited to add: Ah, I took so long to write that response that I missed your follow-up example! I shall have to come up with a similar sort of answer.*


Not at all - I'm grateful anyone went on. I was beginning to feel my usual remorse  for posting a silly thread. Now I can feel *justified*!


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## Headphone Hermit (Jan 8, 2014)

^^^ I don't think it is a silly thread at all - although the concept isn't one that I recognise (at the moment!) in how I approach my listening and therefore I cannot (at the moment) make a reply along the lines of 'x' is too <insert adjective>, but 'y' is too <insert antonym of previous adjective> and Berlioz (for example, only, of course :lol is just right!


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## Guest (Aug 27, 2015)

Are we talking instant oats or the proper stuff? I'm kind of serious, only because I like the analogy and its potential for development. This is because when I've found something that's 'just right', I listen to it ad nauseam...(no, wrong image to bring up here)...(so was that)...and then the porridge goes stale. I have to leave it to one side for some time before I can go back and reheat it!

Last season it was Mahler's 6th. This season it's been Sibelius' 6th, whose 2nd is too tame and whose 4th is too silly.


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## Taggart (Feb 14, 2013)

Medieval music - good but a little strange 

Classical period music - passable but getting a little too modern for my taste

Baroque - a rough pearl but just right for me.


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## Guest (Aug 27, 2015)

MacLeod said:


> Are we talking instant oats or the proper stuff? I'm kind of serious, only because I like the analogy and its potential for development. This is because when I've found something that's 'just right', I listen to it ad nauseam...(no, wrong image to bring up here)...(so was that)...and then the porridge goes stale. I have to leave it to one side for some time before I can go back and reheat it!


REHEAT PORRIDGE MAN?? I may have to reconsider this relationship.

When it comes to porridge, I make the Japanese Tea Ceremony look slapdash.


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## Guest (Aug 27, 2015)

dogen said:


> REHEAT PORRIDGE MAN??


Exactly why the analogy is fun, but tricky. So, listening to poor renditions of Mahler's adagietto is like eating porridge with way too much syrup - possibly sugar too - but when it's done right, it's perfect baby bear!

But you can't reheat music, anymore than you can reheat porridge...

Well, you can - the wonders of the microwave - but would you eat the results?


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## GioCar (Oct 30, 2013)

Ok, let's think of the Piano (Keyboard) Concertos:

Rachmaninoff's Concertos - movie soundtracks for a "romantic" Hollywood film, far too sentimental for me.

C.P.E. Bach's Concertos - Although I've tried them several times, I've always find them "interesting", that's all.

Mozart's Concertos - just RIGHT, one of the most perfect creations of mankind imo


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## Nereffid (Feb 6, 2013)

Bridge's "The Sea" - nice piece of music, but it doesn't feel very marine to me.

Debussy's "La mer" - I like it a lot, but it's rather fanciful compared to the actual sea.

(John Luther) Adams's "Become Ocean" - just right, for me a perfect depiction in sound of what I think of when I think of the ocean.


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## chesapeake bay (Aug 3, 2015)

This is trickier than I thought it would be, but I'm going to go with these guys:

Ligeti Etudes, excellent but a bit too much effort to listen to.

Chopin Etudes, lovely , of course, but I've heard them so often I sometimes have to ff through some of them.

Scriabin Etudes.... ah just right


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## TurnaboutVox (Sep 22, 2013)

Nice idea for a thread, but I don't really find the 'Godilocks Pronciple' that helpful, as I am so undecided about what is 'just right' for me.

In the morning a Mozart string quartet may be delicious

On a sunny afternoon Bridge's 'The Sea' can feel just right

After dinner Mahler's 6th at full volume might be just the ticket

Late at night the Ligeti Etudes can seem quite the thing to tackle.


But I will give you that some Romantic piano concertos drip with too much syrup for me. Reheated porridge? - some of the lesser known composers of the Classical era can sound a bit like that.


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## Vesteralen (Jul 14, 2011)

Playing the game:

Mozart's 41st Symphony - too C Major

Mozart's 40th - too g minor

Mozart's 39th - just E-flat major right!

(the problem is, I actually like the 40th, but, oh well, the 39th is my favorite)


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## Vesteralen (Jul 14, 2011)

Or:

John Cage - Etudes Boreales - not enough going on all the time

Brian Ferneyhough - Terrain - too much going on all the time

Louis Andriessen - Trilogie van de Laatste Dag - variety - just right!


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## isorhythm (Jan 2, 2015)

I do this more with performances. E.g., Bach cantatas:

-Richter and other "old school" recordings - too slow, muddy, Romantic
-Gardiner, Harnoncourt, Pinnock, etc - too fast, dry, clipped
-Herreweghe, Suzuki - just right


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## Kivimees (Feb 16, 2013)

Mrs Kivimees and I went to a concert yesterday evening and on the programme was Distant Light by Peteris Vasks - and it was 'just right':


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Bach Chaconne for solo violin played by Alina Ibragimova

You could say it's 'just right'!


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

This might also suit Goldilocks!


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## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

MacLeod said:


> Last season it was Mahler's 6th. This season it's been *Sibelius*' 6th, whose 2nd is too tame and *whose 4th is too silly*.


What???????

I'm sorry, I just have no way of understanding that reaction. The Fourth is the Sibelius symphony that fascinates me most.


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## Dim7 (Apr 24, 2009)

What a coincidence, we are currently having a stupid, but not too stupid (just right) discussion at my social group Talk Nonsense.

Advertisement over, you may now continue reading the thread.


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## Guest (Aug 27, 2015)

Mahlerian said:


> What???????
> 
> I'm sorry, I just have no way of understanding that reaction. The Fourth is the Sibelius symphony that fascinates me most.


Well, 'silly' might be a slight overstatement, but that fourth movement and that rinky-dink little figure on the glockenspiel - I just can't take it seriously. Does it sound better where some versions have used tubular bells? Not much.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

MacLeod said:


> Well, 'silly' might be a slight overstatement, but that fourth movement and that rinky-dink little figure on the glockenspiel - I just can't take it seriously. Does it sound better where some versions have used tubular bells? Not much.


This reminds me of Eduard Hanslick calling Liszt's first piano concerto a "concerto for triangle with piano accompaniment."

Apparently Sibelius didn't realize he was writing a glockenspiel concerto.


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## ArtMusic (Jan 5, 2013)

Ingélou said:


> Goldilocks found that Papa Bear's porridge was too hot, Mama Bear's porridge was too cold, but Baby Bear's porridge was 'just right'.
> 
> This is a discussion thread for music that you've found 'just right', as opposed to similar music that it 'too whatever'. It's only about personal taste - your 'too whatever' will probably be someone else's 'just right'.
> 
> ...


The "just right" can usually be found in 18th century music for me. Handel, Haydn, Mozart, Bach to name a few. Handel for example wrote the perfect "just right" vocal music (a big range). Haydn the "just right" symphonies and string quartet. Mozart the "just right" operas, piano concertos especially. Baroque music is often the "just right" period.

Getting it "just right" strikes the soul. Nothing intellectual, nothing elitist, nothing critical. Pure and natural.


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## Xaltotun (Sep 3, 2010)

MacLeod said:


> Well, 'silly' might be a slight overstatement, but that fourth movement and that rinky-dink little figure on the glockenspiel - I just can't take it seriously. Does it sound better where some versions have used tubular bells? Not much.


Maybe you're right, you know - maybe we shouldn't take that particular figure seriously. Have you considered that it might be intentionally ironic? That's how I feel about it.


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## Xaltotun (Sep 3, 2010)

About the Goldilocks principle - it's not always a principle that works for me, because I can be such a zealot, craving for works that approach some aspect of infinity while never quite getting there, because it's impossible. The Goldilocks principle in itself is a very "classical" approach, with roots in the Enlightenment and even all the way back to Aristotle - the Golden Goldilocks middle, eh? I can respect that, though; in reality, temperance is needed.

But I can come up with something. In _Tannhäuser,_ the Venusberg is just way too much and Wartburg is just too little, but the protagonist himself is just right! Or in the _Meistersinger,_ Walther is maybe a bit too much and Beckmesser is surely much too little, but Hans Sachs is just right!


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## Guest (Aug 28, 2015)

Woodduck said:


> Apparently Sibelius didn't realize he was writing a glockenspiel concerto.


Correct. It appears he couldn't make his mind up which item of percussion to use. Did it matter? Perhaps not to him, but I'm very picky about what I get distracted by!




Xaltotun said:


> Maybe you're right, you know - maybe we shouldn't take that particular figure seriously. Have you considered that it might be intentionally ironic? That's how I feel about it.


He meant it as a 'serious' joke, then? Well, possibly he did, but the fact remains that, joke or not, what I hear is what I hear - irrespective of the composer's intentions. I note too that I'm supposed to hear the fjords and forests in his work - at least, according to others' proclamations - but there's no guarantee that I will hear them.


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## Xaltotun (Sep 3, 2010)

MacLeod said:


> Correct. It appears he couldn't make his mind up which item of percussion to use. Did it matter? Perhaps not to him, but I'm very picky about what I get distracted by!
> 
> 
> 
> He meant it as a 'serious' joke, then? Well, possibly he did, but the fact remains that, joke or not, what I hear is what I hear - irrespective of the composer's intentions. I note too that I'm supposed to hear the fjords and forests in his work - at least, according to others' proclamations - but there's no guarantee that I will hear them.


I'm not sure about his intentions, just describing how I personally feel about it. I hear it as a grim, dark irony, after all the shattering revelations in the preceding movements. The world goes on, unaware of the emptiness at its center. Something like that. Sometimes, when people tell me or write about their own personal listening experiences, it also starts to affect my own listening experience and finally enriches it.

I don't usually hear fjords or forests in Sibelius, either! - at least in all of his works. In some pieces, certainly. (Nightride and Sunrise, The Wood-Nymph...)


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## Weston (Jul 11, 2008)

My Goldilocks zone is a moving target. What is just right one day may not be the next. However there can still be generalizations.

From the classic
Mozart is too teasing and effete
Beethoven can be too much raging testosterone
Haydn is just right.

From the Romantic:
Liszt is way too much virtuoso noodling and forced passion
Chopin is much simpler sounding but often with way too much faux-expressive rubato
Brahms is just right.

On the other hand Beethoven is still my favorite composer. I often enjoy over the top raging.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Had Goldilocks arrived a few minutes earlier, she would have found Mama Bear's porridge just right. By the time she'd eaten that, Baby Bear's porridge would have been the perfect temperature. She could then have moved on to Papa Bear's porridge and finished that off with pleasure. Instead, she began with Baby Bear's porridge, which left her with the problem of deciding whether to move on first to Papa Bear's, which would have been just right, or Mama Bear's, which was already too cold and was certainly, by the time she got to it, a nauseating way to end a meal. 

Whatever music we may find to be just right, strategic programming is critical.


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