# Film music: Threat or menace?



## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

KUSC (our local classical station) used to have a weekly film music program, which seems to have disappeared. However they now plan a movie music inundation starting February 12, in the lead-up to the academy awards it seems.

https://www.kusc.org/radio/programs/kusc-at-the-movies/

What do you think? Should film music be played on a classical music station? Performed at classical music concerts? Can it be, in fact, classical music?


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## Chromatose (Jan 18, 2016)

It shares more in common than any other form of popular music, it's orchestral and many of the composers who work as film score composers write modern non cinematic music. It would perhaps not be as provocative if it had it's place on it's own day like, film score Tuesdays, (I know lots of orchestral music or opera snobs that would cringe to hear a Hans Zimmer piece in a concert with Brahms or Liszt).


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## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

I suppose it depends on what we mean by "classical". For me, it was movie music that was the gateway into the classics. I grew up watching avidly the classic movies with scores from Waxman, Korngold, Steiner, Rozsa, and all the rest. So I personally have no problem at all - none- with a classical station playing great soundtracks. That's not to say all soundtracks are equal. But there are certainly many that are hugely entertaining and worthy of hearing outside of the film. The suite that Charles Gerhardt put together for Gone With the Wind is just wonderful. Needless to say, the Star Wars films have provided plenty of wonderful music. 

Orchestras are slowly waking up to realize that audiences like film music. I've been to concerts of music from the Lord of the Rings that are sold out with wildly receptive audiences full of young people. There are many movie scores that are being played while the move is projected: Harry Potter films in particular are quite popular. Ok, so it's not Beethoven and Tchaikovsky. It brings people to the concert, its not the same old, tired, boring repertoire. I'm all for it. 100%.


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## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

Horner, Goldsmith, Williams, Steiner, Tiomkin, Jarre, are all classical. Zimmer, Vangelis is ambient/new age, so it doesn’t quite belong in the concert hall.


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## Larkenfield (Jun 5, 2017)

I believe film music satisfies the need for the public to hear new music that they can't find in the concert halls. One of my recent favorites is the terrific James Newman soundtrack to the James Bond _Spectre_ that's lively and starts out in New Orleans. I've watched the movie probably 15 times just for that... and hearing it doesn't preclude hearing anything else that might only be found at classical venues.

I do not begrudge these extremely imaginative and talented composers who work under deadlines getting a fat fee rather than starving in the ghetto like others have done in the past. I think some of them might have worked for hire for an Esterhazy, like Haydn did, if it were two hundred years ago. Only today, they are hired by the studios rather than the princes and aristocrats of yesteryear. I see the circumstances as comparable. Those composers who don't want to write for hire are still able to be on their own and fly without a net under them, but even they are sometimes subsidized or commissioned by patrons.


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## Chromatose (Jan 18, 2016)

I have to admit as much as I like some scores, I love it when filmmakers use pre-existing music in there films like Kubrick did rather than have one written for the film. 

Now I know some of you folks probably hate that, (I think I remembered reading a post by someone who said something to the effect of it was blasphemous to put the last chorus of Bach's St. Matthew Passion in the film Casino) but I think it's better. I'd venture to say 75 to 85% of the audience who saw Casino never heard St. Matthew Passion, so think of all the people who got to discover that gem (maybe not many but to that small % who discovered it in than movie it could very well be that it opened up a new world of music to those who heard it for the first time). 

Think of how popular Ligeti is because of Kubrick's usage of his music in his own films. Ligeti is eons better than any film composer working today (thats just me but I'm sure many of you feel the same).

Not entirely on topic but while i'm thinking of it the best score of the year was Jonny Greenwood's sublime entry for Phantom Thread.


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## DaveM (Jun 29, 2015)

A lot of discussion on this subject occurred a couple of years ago:

Movie Themes/Soundtracks As a Category of Modern Classical Music


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## Chromatose (Jan 18, 2016)

DaveM said:


> A lot of discussion on this subject occurred a couple of years ago:
> 
> Movie Themes/Soundtracks As a Category of Modern Classical Music


Wow, I knew that thread seemed familiar, that was one of the first threads I ever posted on.. Crazy.


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## Jacck (Dec 24, 2017)

Film music actually stole a lot of audiences from classical music. While classical music evolved into dissonant, atonal, crazy, film music retained its romantic melodies. I know several people who listen to orchestral film music, but cannot stomach classical.

Jerry Goldsmith - Medicine Man





I am not familiar with the US scene, but in my country there is a radio station that plays only film music.


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

Whether it matters or not, I don't think film music is classical music. It is often influenced by classical music and sometimes uses sounds and effects drawn from classical music but for me even Walton's or Prokofiev's film music is not classical music. It is something less and generally something I only listen to with the film it is supposed to accompany. I get quite irritated when I see film music included in lists of classical music recordings. I do acknowledge that there are many different forms of classical music - so it is not "one thing/genre", really - but classical music is for listening to and experiencing. If it is opera or ballet the logic of music is still enormously influential in how the piece goes but film music does much less: it supports the action in the film. 

This is not some sort of snobbishness. What about the use of popular music forms as film music? The same applies: film music does not lead or stand alone, and (so far as I know) does not influence the action or the editing of the film. Its role is merely supportive and it is not required to satisfy on its own.


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

Enthusiast said:


> ...it is not required to satisfy on its own.


Some of it does though, especially in smaller doses (thinking of Williams in particular, Schindler's list theme or the Harry Potter 'Hedwig' theme would do well in a concert of established classical music lollipops).


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## Jacck (Dec 24, 2017)

Enthusiast said:


> It is something less and generally something I only listen to with the film it is supposed to accompany. .


not me. Although some soundtracks are worthless without the accompanying movie, others can stand completely on its own. I listened to many soundtracks just like I would listen to a symphony, without even having seen the movie
some examples


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## Haydn man (Jan 25, 2014)

If film music and classical can cross over with each other and this helps orchestras and audiences then I feel it is a good thing
If just a few who listen to film music or attend film music concerts are tempted to explore further then great
Is film music classical, I don't know and I am not sure I am too bothered either way


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## Nereffid (Feb 6, 2013)

DaveM said:


> A lot of discussion on this subject occurred a couple of years ago:
> 
> Movie Themes/Soundtracks As a Category of Modern Classical Music


At the time, I gave a "like" to the following comment in that thread:



> My point is that what we (and others) call any sort of music is basically meaningless. We can call certain music "classical" and we can exclude (for instance) movie music from that definition. Well, good luck with that. Ultimately, nobody cares, nor should they.
> 
> A lot of people spend too much time building walls around classical music, and then gnash their teeth over its loss of acceptance.


I think KenOC might recognise those words. 

Some pieces of film music will sit neatly with some pieces of classical music, and others won't. But this is true for classical music generally anyway. Context is vital. Vivaldi's concertos and Wagner's operas might both be classical, but who would want to programme the two together? Whereas a suite of Bizet orchestral music followed by a suite of Williams film music seems perfectly reasonable.


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## Sonata (Aug 7, 2010)

Jacck said:


> Film music actually stole a lot of audiences from classical music. While classical music evolved into dissonant, atonal, crazy, film music retained its romantic melodies. I know several people who listen to orchestral film music, but cannot stomach classical.
> 
> Jerry Goldsmith - Medicine Man
> 
> ...


That's not so much stealing then is it? Film music is providing what these people need in music that modern classical isn't


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## Bill Cooke (May 20, 2017)

Not all film music is concert hall worthy, in my opinion, but a lot is (especially the older, more complex scores by Waxman, Korngold, Rozsa, Herrmann, etc.). Film music is often frowned upon because it is in service of another medium; however we listen to suites drawn from ballets in the concert hall, as well as suites derived from theater music and opera - why not great, inspired film music, too?


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## Blancrocher (Jul 6, 2013)

I hope this isn't considered a useless tangent, but I would add that more and more composers are including elements of film in their works. A recent notable example (and Grawemeyer winner) is Michel van der Aa's "Up Close":






I personally enjoy these kinds of deviations from absolute-music orthodoxies.

...

More precisely re the OP, I probably wouldn't mind hearing film music on the radio either--so long as I liked the film. I sometimes like to reminisce about the good ones I've seen.


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## Joe B (Aug 10, 2017)

Larkenfield said:


> One of my recent favorites is the terrific James Newman soundtrack to the James Bond _Spectre_ that's lively and starts out in New Orleans. I've watched the movie probably 15 times just for that... and hearing it doesn't preclude hearing anything else that might only be found at classical venues. .


I've watched this movie maybe 3 or 4 times, but I'm pretty sure the movie starts out in Mexico City on the Day of the Dead.


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## Merl (Jul 28, 2016)

As I don't ever listen to the radio (why listen to a lot of music you don't want to hear when I have a terabyte of music I can access more quickly and program myself? ) this question doesn't really matter to me. If I did listen to the radio it wouldn't bother me hearing film music, though.


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## Zhdanov (Feb 16, 2016)

KenOC said:


> Film music: Threat or menace?


intimidation...


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## Alfacharger (Dec 6, 2013)

Quote Originally Posted by Larkenfield View Post
One of my recent favorites is the terrific James Newman soundtrack to the James Bond Spectre that's lively and starts out in New Orleans. I've watched the movie probably 15 times just for that... and hearing it doesn't preclude hearing anything else that might only be found at classical venues. .



Joe B said:


> I've watched this movie maybe 3 or 4 times, but I'm pretty sure the movie starts out in Mexico City on the Day of the Dead.


And the composer is Thomas Newman!


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## Michael Diemer (Nov 12, 2017)

Film music is the modern-day analog of incidental music, or music for the theater. Some truly magnificent scores were written for that medium, such as the many by Sibelius. His Tempest is among his finest works. Both he and Faure wrote lovely scores for Pelleas and Melisande. And so forth. I would say that incidental music is superior, however.

The real tragedy is that our obsession with movies pulls talented students away, as they can make tons of money as film composers. The likelihood of that happening as "purely classical" composers is hardly worth considering. But the Arts follow the culture. This is where we are now.


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## Triplets (Sep 4, 2014)

I listen to many Composers that wrote both for the Concert Hall and Film. In no particular order William Alwyn, Mario Castelnuevo-Tedesco, Hector Villa Lobos, Nino Rota, Korngold, Vaughn Williams, Prokofiev,Shostakovich, Aaron Copland, and others. I don’t think that any of it should be discouraged or pigeon holed


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## Guest (Feb 11, 2018)

I love film music; it's so evocative, which is its job. I can't find the original opening titles sequence for this film, "The Best Years of Our Lives", but this is in my top 5 all time great movie music: you only get a snippet of it here in this trailer, but it gives you a taste of its intensity. Forget the rest of the trailer after 54': the film is a *TOTAL MASTERPIECE*. I adore every single frame of it!






And here Friedhofer uses modality in this wonderful scene in the plane coming home, where Homer sees the clouds and is reminded of his shipmates who went down in the sea, and then the segue to the scenes of 'home' where the musical tempo is upbeat. Gregg Toland, fabulous cinematographer; William Wyler, director extraordinaire; March, Andrews and Harold Russell - ineffable performances from the first two and a realistic one from the real-life double amputee Russell. And that famous tracking shot of the street scenes has been parodied and copied in countless films. But notice how the music is like a symphony where the melody changes for each individual setting. A perfect synthesis of sound and image. And the people had values!! Now we can look back and see what that looked like in our age of coarse, debased 'anything goes':


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## DaveM (Jun 29, 2015)

Christabel said:


> I love film music; it's so evocative, which is its job. I can't find the original opening titles sequence for this film, "The Best Years of Our Lives", but this is in my top 5 all time great movie music: you only get a snippet of it here in this trailer, but it gives you a taste of its intensity. Forget the rest of the trailer after 54': the film is a *TOTAL MASTERPIECE*. I adore every single frame of it!


I was not familiar with that piece. I can see why you were drawn to it.


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## Jacck (Dec 24, 2017)

In classical music, ballet is in my opinion akin to a movie soundtrack. You have various dancing scenes accompanied by music, in a movie, you have various scenes accompanied by music. After listening to some ballets lately, it occured me now that they have the same structure as movie scores, including the names for the various themes or scenes.


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## brianvds (May 1, 2013)

KenOC said:


> KUSC (our local classical station) used to have a weekly film music program, which seems to have disappeared. However they now plan a movie music inundation starting February 12, in the lead-up to the academy awards it seems.
> 
> https://www.kusc.org/radio/programs/kusc-at-the-movies/
> 
> What do you think? Should film music be played on a classical music station? Performed at classical music concerts? Can it be, in fact, classical music?


Why not? It's the modern version of incidental music. If Grieg's _Peer Gynt_ suites can be classical, then so can the soundtrack to _Schindler's List._

That said, I wish film composers would do what Grieg did: if a film's music is popular, turn it into a proper suite for concert performance, which means cutting out all the boring stuff (like the bangs and thunders accompanying action scenes) and giving it a more coherent structure.

For a radio station, film music is a sort of pitcher plant: there's no way out. Once they have started on it, audiences want nothing else, and before long the classical music radio station plays mostly soundtracks, with _Eine Kleine Nachtmusik_ and _Fur Elise_ in between here and there. I have seen (or rather, heard) it happen. Works the same way and for the same reason History Channel ends up screening biographies of film stars or reality shows, and Discovery Channel focuses on UFOs and Bigfoot.

You want to hear stuff you have never heard before, or strange curiosities, or fascinating documentaries? Go to YouTube.


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## Guest (Feb 12, 2018)

Larkenfield said:


> One of my recent favorites is the terrific [..]Newman soundtrack to the James Bond _Spectre_ that's lively [...] I've watched the [start] probably [20] times just for that...


The details are not quite correct, but the sentiment is - a splendid opening. I particularly like the sway of the skeleton on Bond's back as he walks up the staircase, and the whole opening choreographed so beautifully with the parade (staged, not real).

http://www.indiewire.com/2015/11/ho...ectre-of-death-opening-in-mexico-city-175854/



Chromatose said:


> I have to admit as much as I like some scores, I love it when filmmakers use pre-existing music in there films like Kubrick did rather than have one written for the film.


Classical was my gateway to classical, but it was Kubrick's _2001 _that was my gateway to movie soundtracks. I own very few OSTs, but there is no doubt in my mind that some soundtracks offer a high quality accompaniment to the movie, whether "classical" or not. And I see nothing wrong in offering radio programming that entertains its audience with the best of orchestral movie music.


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## Guest (Feb 12, 2018)

Christabel said:


> I love film music; it's so evocative, which is its job. I can't find the original opening titles sequence for this film, "The Best Years of Our Lives",


I liked the movie, though didn't notice the score at the time - which probably means it's a good score! Friedhofer worked with Emil Newman - those Newmans get everywhere!


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## Guest (Feb 12, 2018)

A modern recording of the opening title music, which runs through the whole film:






The citation scene for Captain Derry, read by his down-and-out father, is the total highlight of this astonishing film. It's a big call as there are so many staggeringly beautiful scenes, set to the radiant monochrome photography of the great *Gregg Toland* (who would die 2 years later, in his late 40s). My eyes fill with tears just hearing this title music. Honestly. It's my favourite film of all time and I know and like thousands of them.


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## larold (Jul 20, 2017)

Film music is played on my NPR station and has been featured in concert by my local symphony. With the state of classical music today, I believe better film music is superior to most of what is being written now. It is akin to Richard Strauss's suite to the Bourgeois Gentilhomme or similar suites to music from plays in the classical era. I don't think anyone would argue this wasn't classical music or didn't belong in the concert hall.


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## Bill Cooke (May 20, 2017)

To put things in perspective, I have no doubt that had film technology been introduced earlier, composers like Wagner and R. Strauss would have been all over it.


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

Bill Cooke said:


> To put things in perspective, I have no doubt that had film technology been introduced earlier, composers like Wagner and R. Strauss would have been all over it.


Strauss lived and composed several decades in parallel to the movie industry - unlike e.g. Prokofiev in the same time frame, he did not go for it.


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## insomniclassicac (Jan 15, 2018)

Naturally beholden to constraints of scene and short deadlines, film and TV music tends to progress somewhat predictably, with a "flattened" texture. This results in something of a "tail wags the dog" proposition for the composer; in sharp contrast to opera, ballet, etc., which provides freedom to bend and subdue genre to music. In this respect, I can't consider film music equivalent to the best concert music.

That said, exceptions do exist, invariably it seems in instances where the composer is specially-recruited by the director to collaborate with them particularly closely. Typically, this means some measure of the music is written _before_ or _during_ the assembly of a work print, allowing artistic flexibility to bend in *both* directions. Examples of this kind of composer-director relationship include Prokofiev with Eisenstein (_Alexander Nevsky_ and _Ivan the Terrible_), Shostakovich with Kozintsev (_Hamlet_ and _King Lear_), and Ovchinnikov with Tarkovsky (_Andrei Rublev_); collaborations which all resulted in music of an unusual fecundity arguably worthy of the concert hall. (From these examples, one would think this phenomenon strictly a Russian "thing", lol.)


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## larold (Jul 20, 2017)

<<To put things in perspective, I have no doubt that had film technology been introduced earlier, composers like Wagner and R. Strauss would have been all over it.>>

Wagner's concept of music, text and scene is what basically became today's film experience. I was playing a Stokowski Gotterdamerung arrangement on the stereo one day when my wife came home from work. She asked what movie was playing.

As I've argued before, one of the main reasons I believe classical music composition has declined is because artists left music for visual arts that incorporate it. I've said before had Steven Spielberg been born 1850 instead of 1950 he'd have composed an opera for Moby Dick instead of the film Jaws.


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## larold (Jul 20, 2017)

<<Strauss lived and composed several decades in parallel to the movie industry - unlike e.g. Prokofiev in the same time frame, he did not go for it. >>

Shostakovich did; he wrote many film scores. It filled his pockets when he was in trouble with the Soviet realists.


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## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

There is some phenomenal film music - though the best of it is by great classical composers like Walton and Shostokovich. 

Do I like hearing it on classical stations - no.


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