# Sibelius Symphony no 4



## Judith (Nov 11, 2015)

Don't know if anyone else thinks the same way. Find this particular symphony very difficult to get into.

Had it as my focus last month and still didn't know the composition at the end. 

One of the most challenging works that I know


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## Knorf (Jan 16, 2020)

I don't disagree. I've been obsessed with it for years! It's kind of like a Shakespearean tragedy. And when you think it's going turn out alright, everything goes kablooey.


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

This is what I wrote about it years ago. It has grown to be one of my favourite symphonies from one of my favourite symphonists.

"A bleak work, echoing the uncertainties in his life following a cancer operation. In the dramatic first movement, there are more echoes of Mahler than elsewhere in Sibelius' oeuvre. An almost circus-like recurring melody fragment in the short scherzo cannot really lift the general feeling of despair, which gets amplified in the subdued but impressive slow movement. The finale opens brightly enough with melodic fragments, accentuated with bells ringing, but eventually the lethargic feeling returns and the symphony ends with an unresolved feeling. Perhaps his least immediately accessible symphony, but well worth hearing repeatedly."


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## Merl (Jul 28, 2016)

Art Rock said:


> This is what I wrote about it years ago. It has grown to be one of my favourite symphonies from one of my favourite symphonists.
> 
> "A bleak work, echoing the uncertainties in his life following a cancer operation. In the dramatic first movement, there are more echoes of Mahler than elsewhere in Sibelius' oeuvre. An almost circus-like recurring melody fragment in the short scherzo cannot really lift the general feeling of despair, which gets amplified in the subdued but impressive slow movement. The finale opens brightly enough with melodic fragments, accentuated with bells ringing, but eventually the lethargic feeling returns and the symphony ends with an unresolved feeling. Perhaps his least immediately accessible symphony, but well worth hearing repeatedly."


Sounds like a solid assessment.


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## Knorf (Jan 16, 2020)

I disagree. I don't hear "lethargy" in this symphony at all.

ETA: although, I don't disagree about the echoes of Mahler.


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## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

Knorf said:


> I disagree. I don't hear "lethargy" in this symphony at all.


Yeah. Mostly I hear tritones.


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## Allegro Con Brio (Jan 3, 2020)

Certainly one of my favorite symphonies of all time, and probably in my top 10 in the genre. I don’t listen to it very often because of the engagement it requires, but when I do it’s just so rewarding. Up to that point, whoever would have thought of opening a symphony the way he did, with a crushing, ambiguous tritone interval? No note seems out of place in this work, no gesture unnecessary. Along with Mahler’s 6th and 9th and Nielsen’s 5th I think it belongs to a very special group of “Freudian Symphonies” of the early 20th century that seem to encapsulate the doubts, hesitations, and novelties of the new era stretching ahead. If you want to hear it brought out in full Technicolor, Bernstein/NY. For the bleak, unforgiving tundra Vanska/Lahti and for a nice big wallow Karajan/BPO (yes, I normally can’t stand his Sibelius but his 4th is one I do enjoy hearing occasionally for the unique perspective).


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## Bigbang (Jun 2, 2019)

Judith said:


> Don't know if anyone else thinks the same way. Find this particular symphony very difficult to get into.
> 
> Had it as my focus last month and still didn't know the composition at the end.
> 
> One of the most challenging works that I know


You got some opinions on it back in March when you brought up the topic.


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## SONNET CLV (May 31, 2014)

Knorf said:


> … It's kind of like a Shakespearean tragedy. And when you think it's going turn out alright, everything goes kablooey.


A perceptive observation and appropriate allusion.

The Fourth remains among my favorite symphonies and likely proves the one Sibelius symphony I've listened to more often than any others, even though I favor the Second moreso. It's probably that I'm still so perplexed by this dark, "tragic" seeming work that I continually feel the need to attempt another examination of it, one which will hopefully answer some of the questions the music provokes. But so far, not much luck.

Which is what is really great about the piece.


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## Judith (Nov 11, 2015)

Bigbang said:


> You got some opinions on it back in March when you brought up the topic.


Sorry. My memory is so bad at the moment


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

It is a bleak work and usually sounds best when played with some intensity, ideally with and orchestra with a great string section. Maazel with the Vienna Phil sounds a little warmer than, say, Karajan - both are recommendable and may help a listener to get over the difficulties of the work.


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## Bigbang (Jun 2, 2019)

Judith said:


> Sorry. My memory is so bad at the moment


The good news is you get to read the same comments twice in some cases.


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## Triplets (Sep 4, 2014)

Bigbang said:


> The good news is you get to read the same comments twice in some cases.


My mother is 92. She has always been a difficult person to get along with, never forgetting or forgiving a perceived slight. She is starting to have some cognitive decline and it's kind of pleasant because she can be furious with me one day and the next day have no memory of it.
Back to Sibelius. The Fourth is his Mahler Sixth or Brahms Fourth. It starts with doubt and foreboding and proceeds to terror, the kind of terror that occurs when we let our inner anxieties run amok, when we stop trying to wish them away and they wash over us like a tsunami. It then recovers from this, starts to look for a return of optimism, and then concludes-nope. That would have to wait until Sibelius 5.


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## Bigbang (Jun 2, 2019)

Triplets said:


> My mother is 92. She has always been a difficult person to get along with, never forgetting or forgiving a perceived slight. She is starting to have some cognitive decline and it's kind of pleasant because she can be furious with me one day and the next day have no memory of it.
> Back to Sibelius. The Fourth is his Mahler Sixth or Brahms Fourth. It starts with doubt and foreboding and proceeds to terror, the kind of terror that occurs when we let our inner anxieties run amok, when we stop trying to wish them away and they wash over us like a tsunami. It then recovers from this, starts to look for a return of optimism, and then concludes-nope. That would have to wait until Sibelius 5.


I have never cared much for Sibelius 4. I do think some composers write some music from some inner purpose more aligned to their world and other times more for others to hear and appreciate.


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## Gray Bean (May 13, 2020)

It’s a tough nut to crack. Keep listening. I’ve lost count of how many recordings I have. My favorites are Segerstam (Ondine), Karajan (DG), Colin Davis (Boston Symphony but the LSO recording is good,too) and Barbirolli on EMI. .Try listening to different recordings. As an aside, my perspective changed after I played it as a member of an orchestra (I’m a horn player). Up until then I found it deadly dull. My favorite is the 7th, but I like the weird atmosphere of the 4th. It does require concentrated listening though.


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## Guest (Jun 9, 2020)

Judith said:


> Don't know if anyone else thinks the same way. Find this particular symphony very difficult to get into.


I was certainly puzzled by it. The bells in the last movement seemed to undercut the whole thing, which had seemed deadly serious. I recall making some disparaging remarks about it and Mahlerian put me right.

It's now difficult to separate from 6 and 7 among my favourites. The slow movement is gorgeous.

BTW, looking at this - you may have seen it already - the recommended recording is Vanska/Lahti.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/p01zb3ys

http://downloads.bbc.co.uk/radio3/building_a_library/baL_factsheet_1999-2016.pdf


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## Merl (Jul 28, 2016)

I was still discovering Sibelius when I came to this site and only had a few recordings of the 4th (how times have changed). I think what took me so long was finding the right recording. My first single disc of this was Rattle's first effort and it really didn't sell it to me, so much that I didn't rate it at all I still find it too cold an account. Rattle did some of the Sibelius symphonies well but with both of his cycles I think this one fares the worst . Hats off to Karajan for being the first one to sell it to me but I have a big soft spot for Maazel here who makes a very good case for it indeed. Its still my least favourite Sibelius symphony but that doesn't stop me loving it (see Beethoven 2).


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## Kiki (Aug 15, 2018)

Apart from the apparent bleakness and despair, there is a terrifying presence that crushes any temporary optimism, while sometimes it confronts you head on, and there is nowhere to hide..

Have to admit the 4th was the last of Sibelius' symphonies that I got myself familiar with. It took some effort, but once through that, I found it the most charismatic and addictive among his seven symphonies.


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## Knorf (Jan 16, 2020)

I still argue that if you know some of Shakespeare's tragedies, Sibelius Symphony No. 4 makes a lot of sense. I'm not saying it follows a Shakespearean narrative, or anything like that. Just the mood of near despair, occasionally brightening, even comic, but ultimately tragic. Something like _Hamlet_, or _King Lear_, perhaps.

But I admit that I brooded over Sibelius 4 for many years. I don't know whether it's my favorite of the seven, but I love it to death. I've even quoted it in my own compositions (very unobtrusively.)


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## helenora (Sep 13, 2015)

Knorf said:


> I don't disagree. I've been obsessed with it for years! It's kind of like a Shakespearean tragedy. And when you think it's going turn out alright, everything goes kablooey.


can't say more! agreed


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## mavm (Jun 20, 2020)

Like Allegro posted on the 6th, I find it a special symphony but only listen when I'm in the right mindset. I came by route of the 6th. My current pref is Maazel's 4th, but I've heard Segerstam (Helsinki) and was planning to acquire it when I heard Rouvali's recent 1st and 2nd. Really liked the Rouvali so I should probably hold off until he records Silbelius 4 to see how that "feels" compared to Maazel.


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