# Unwelcome anniversary?



## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Norman Lebrecht posted the following on his Blog 'slipped Disc' on 29th December:

Ahead of the annual New Year’s jamboree, Austrian historians and journalists are taking interest in the VPO’s performance under Nazi rule – the period when the orchestra invented the New Year’s Day concert.
An article in Die Presse today reminds us that the VPO had an unduly high number of Nazis among its players – 25 joined the party when it was still illegal in Austria. After March 12, 1938, fifteen Jewish and leftist musicians were sent to concentration camps. Seven of them died. The orchestra awarded a signal honour to Baldur von Schirach, the Gauleiter in charge of ‘cleansing’ Vienna.
In response to questions about the origins of the New Year’s concert, the VPO chairman Clemens Hellsberg promised to provide website space to the orchestra’s conduct under the Third Reich – before the 75th anniversary of the Anschluss in March 201.


----------



## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

Working out their spectres, and needed. 

It is to be hoped that all can separate 'new years concert' from the fact Nazis established the event. It is a common enough night which all celebrate, after all.

I'm still waiting for the Vatican to cop from moving Christmas from spring to around 22 December, because it was a handy tool which tied in with pagan German traditions observed during their winter solstice festival / rites, the Christian Church and Roman Government were hoping to subdue / convert the German tribes. 

I imagine that would cause quite a kerfuffle.


----------



## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

That's interesting about the Vienna New Year's Day concert, I never knew that it was established under the Nazis.

I have been re-reading about Austrian and Central-East European history recently. Even before the Anschluss, way before, its a history marked by anti-Semitism, racism, rigid class hierarchies (you thought the English where obsessed by that? It's nothing compared to what went on in the Habsburg Empire, nothing), anti-democratic and militaristic tendencies and so on.

But to cut to the chase, these people need to be comforted by a kind of whitewashed and sanitised view of the past. Fact is that places like the Wiener Singverein (where this annual concert takes place) and the Vienna State Opera where totally bombed during World War II. They where basically smouldering ruins. What you see today, as well as most of the rest of Vienna's monuments (eg. the Ringstrasse, where Hitler paraded when he came in 1938) they're all post-war reconstructions, done mainly in the 1950's.

So basically Vienna is like one huge Disney land, a theme park of things that are all nice and sweet. No racism, no pogroms, no ghettos, no oppressive monarchs or dictators, none of that, just nice buildings which aren't even 'real.'

I must say I am jaded by all this, its like a facade. To add insult to injury, the RadetzkY March which they play at the end of each concert was dedicated to a horrible bloodthirsty oppressor. A man who slaughtered hundreds and thousands of Czechs and Hungarians when in 1848 they dared to demand independence and fight against Germanisation.

Another irony is that the poster boy - or poster family more appropriately - for this whole event, the Strauss waltz dynasty, they apparently had Jewish origins. But the Nazis like other dictatorships rewrote history to change that fact. Nice one! So when people got off the cattle cars arriving in Auschwitz, they where greeted by the music of the Strausses, among others of the German pantheon of music.

But nobody remembers, so who cares? Its similar with much else in history, especially European history. We had the worst genocides in history there, by the Nazis and Stalinists, but its all forgotten. Whitewashed by their great music, their great monuments, their great philosophy and all that stuff. Really made a difference to those who died in concentration camps, didn't it? (Not).

I personally don't mind the New Year's Day concert, or other candy cane fantasies like Andre Rieu, I just don't like it when people whitewash history, including to do with classical music and its context/culture (not the Disney version).


----------



## Arsakes (Feb 20, 2012)

A "Prussia vs Austria" (both 19th century) poll will be interesting!

Hail Kaiser Wilhelm and Kanzler Bismark!


----------



## SiegendesLicht (Mar 4, 2012)

Some people just love digging around in others' dirty underwear (I am not sure if that is how they say it in English, but I think you get my meaning). Is that some sick fetish or what?


----------



## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

SiegendesLicht said:


> Some people just love digging around in others' dirty underwear (I am not sure if that is how they say it in English, but I think you get my meaning). Is that some sick fetish or what?


Not as sick as Hitler's Final Solution. We only learn the lessons of history when we face up to them fully. In any case, I don't think that repeating the established facts of history is digging in dirty underwear.


----------



## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

DavidA said:


> Not as sick as Hitler's Last Solution. We only learn the lessons of history when we face up to them fully.


You're absolutely right! I'm going to get out Penderecki's "Threnody to the Victims of Hiroshima" and listen to it!


----------



## SiegendesLicht (Mar 4, 2012)

What does the VPO or its New Year concerts or any of its today's players have to do with the Final Solution? Nothing, unless some journalist wants to get a bit of fame and money by creating an artificial hype around something that is long gone. "Oooohh, those evil Nazis!"


----------



## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

millionrainbows said:


> You're absolutely right! I'm going to get out Penderecki's "Threnody to the Victims of Hiroshima" and listen to it!
> 
> View attachment 11445


No side emerged with credit from WW2.
Years after the war, Oppenheimer, the father of the A-bomb, when interviewed, quoted a hindu text:
'I am become death, the destroyer of worlds.'
It is a fact that many physicists changed disciplines after the war when they saw the effects of what they had created.


----------



## Huilunsoittaja (Apr 6, 2010)

Very interesting, and good to know. Yet I don't see it as a reason to boycott watching/listening to the New Years Day Concert. It's something that's worth _redeeming _from it's past, a celebration that transcends its original circumstances.


----------



## bigshot (Nov 22, 2011)

DavidA said:


> Not as sick as Hitler's Final Solution. We only learn the lessons of history when we face up to them fully. In any case, I don't think that repeating the established facts of history is digging in dirty underwear.


I don't see much relationship between a 2013 New Year's concert of Strauss Waltzes and Nazi death camps. I think some people just enjoy raining on parades.


----------



## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Huilunsoittaja said:


> Very interesting, and good to know. Yet I don't see it as a reason to boycott watching/listening to the New Years Day Concert. It's something that's worth _redeeming _from it's past, a celebration that transcends its original circumstances.


Did anyone say anything about boycotting the concert? I watched it today on TV over lunch. Not my sort of music though.


----------



## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

bigshot said:


> I don't see much relationship between a 2013 New Year's concert of Strauss Waltzes and Nazi death camps. I think some people just enjoy raining on parades.


It's because people didn't 'rain' on certain parades that the Nazis came to power.


----------



## BurningDesire (Jul 15, 2012)

You know, there's injustice currently going on in the world. Is it really proactive to be constantly outraged for a horrific event that occurred generations ago? I can't put into words who horrific the Holocaust was, but there's new horrible things going on right this moment. If you care so damn much about the well-being of your fellow humans, about love and peace, why not put that outrage into something that you could potentially help with? You can't change the past.


----------



## Cnote11 (Jul 17, 2010)

Perhaps if there was a Kinshasa New Years Concert?


----------



## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

DavidA said:


> It's because people didn't 'rain' on certain parades that the Nazis came to power.


Yeah well they love denial. When Anschluss happened, thousands of Viennese lined the Ringstrasse to greet Hitler. But after the war, they all denied they where there. Nobody was there, what the newsreel footage and photos show did not happen, apparently. As long as we say it did not happen, it didn't happen. That's it (the classic 'head in sand' attitude). Is it alive and well today? To make things worse, some of these people then made up things after the war to whitewash their own history. Eg. that they where part of the resistance against the Nazis during the war. Again, manufacturing history.

As I said, I got nothing against people enjoying Strauss' waltz music in a building that's a reconstruction from the 1950's at an event established under Nazi rule. I have listened to cd's of past versions of this concert myself. I know people here who like to watch it every year. That's fine. But let's not deny that the culture that gave rise to all this, it was basically toxic.

Anyway, I'll bite my lip and not say more. I've said enough to challenge these sacred cows and fetishes. People need them for comfort and protection. Sorry!


----------



## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

Cnote11 said:


> Perhaps if there was a Kinshasa New Years Concert?


What's going on in AFrica now, and what's been going on there for decades, much of it can be traced back to European colonialism. Eg. in Congo, you had Lumumba elected as President, then toppled (and killed) in a coup by General Mobutu, who was backed by Belgium (the former colonial power) as well as the CIA. Cold war politics fed into this, they said Lumumba was too close to the USSR.

Bottom line is I'm not demonizing Europe at the expense of everyone else. Its not better or worse than any other country. What I'm saying is that I don't think Europe is superior in any way to the rest of the world. All it has is these fancy trappings of culture as markers of 'civilisation.' These are repeatedly used to cover hidden agendas, dark ones at that which people like to sweep under the carpet at their convenience.

Anyway, I will try not to further 'politicalise' things as rapide points out, suffice to say that if you think that say Africa is primitive, well Europe is no better. Classical is no better than any other music. But I have argued this to no avail on this forum so who cares.


----------



## Flamme (Dec 30, 2012)

I know Karajan was in nazis...Well the XX th century Rattenfänger von Hameln put a spell on them no matter they were peasants workers or intelectuals...Also membership in the Party opened some door as it seems in Karajans case....


----------



## SiegendesLicht (Mar 4, 2012)

Well, I do believe European (or rather Western) civilization *is *better than the rest, and classical music *is* better than most other types of music, but that is not the issue at hand. The issue is not making those people who live and play music now, in the year 2013, feel as if they are partly to blame for events that happened long before their time, or even feel they are somehow guilty simply by virtue of being German/Austrian.


----------



## Flamme (Dec 30, 2012)

Sid James said:


> What's going on in AFrica now, and what's been going on there for decades, much of it can be traced back to European colonialism. Eg. in Congo, you had Lumumba elected as President, then toppled (and killed) in coup by General Mobuto, who was backed by Belgium (the former colonial power) as well as the CIA. Cold war politics fed into this, they said Lumumba was too close to the USSR.
> 
> Bottom line is I'm not demonizing Europe at the expense of everyone else. Its not better or worse than any other country. What I'm saying is that I don't think Europe is superior in any way to the rest of the world. All it has is these fancy trappings of culture as markers of 'civilisation.' These are repeatedly used to cover hidden agendas, dark ones at that which people like to sweep under the carpet at their convenience.
> 
> Anyway, I will try not to further 'politicalise' things as rapide points out, suffice to say that if you think that say Africa is primitive, well Europe is no better. Classical is no better than any other music. But I have argued this to no avail on this forum so who cares.


Are you british?You sound like one...But i agree too much arrogance can lead you to defeat a little is on the other hand needed for self preservation...


----------



## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

SiegendesLicht said:


> Well, I do believe European (or rather Western) civilization *is *better than the rest, and classical music *is* better than most other types of music, but that is not the issue at hand. The issue is not making those people who live and play music now, in the year 2013, feel as if they are partly to blame for events that happened long before their time, or even feel they are somehow guilty simply by virtue of being German/Austrian.


You can say that, and I have said enough to make my position known. But what I'd add that without this thread I would not known of this slice of history, so to speak. I think its kind of been forgotten, or worse, covered up. That's what I'm concerned about. You and I will have different opinions on pieces of history like this. But we should know it in the first place to form those opinions. My impression is that many people today don't care for history. I was talking to a Chinese guy here the other day, about the fireworks at New years eve, and he did not know that the ancient Chinese invented fireworks! That's what I mean, and you know in more serious matters of history than that, the saying goes that if you forget history you are bound to repeat the mistakes of the past.


----------



## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

Sid James said:


> That's interesting about the Vienna New Year's Day concert, I never knew that it was established under the Nazis.
> 
> Fact is that places like the Wiener Singverein (where this annual concert takes place) and the Vienna State Opera where totally bombed during World War II. They where basically smouldering ruins. What you see today, as well as most of the rest of Vienna's monuments (eg. the Ringstrasse, where Hitler paraded when he came in 1938) they're all post-war reconstructions, done mainly in the 1950's.
> 
> So basically Vienna is like one huge Disney land, a theme park of things that are all nice and sweet. No racism, no pogroms, no ghettos, no oppressive monarchs or dictators, none of that, just nice buildings which aren't even 'real.'


You're bombed out, after a war you did not win, and its time to rebuild. You are 'the capitol.' Guess what? Like Lord Nelson's uniform specs still on file at his tailor, the Ringstrasse plans, being a government project, still had those plans in a drawer: wanting to restore to normalcy as fast as possible, saving money on new plans or architects, they rebuilt what was there.

Should they have instead built, what? A monument of the more than regret for the dreadful war and genocide of which they were partly responsible? Perhaps it would have been best to build a monument to all of rapacious and genocidal Christendom, truly 'the one' responsible for anti-semitism, pograms, and the rest?

They just rebuilt buildings which were part of their tradition, even prior the Nazi shame, and it was most practical, the intent to 'restore' some sense of place and order after the (self-induced) consequence of chaos.

Name me one seat of capitol which is not somehow very self-consciously 'Synthetic.' Washington D.C. is a confab of pseudo Graeco-Roman architecture, another 'Disneyland' by your standards, it seems.



Sid James said:


> To add insult to injury, the RadetzkY March which they play at the end of each concert was dedicated to a horrible bloodthirsty oppressor. A man who slaughtered hundreds and thousands of Czechs and Hungarians when in 1848 they dared to demand independence and fight against Germanisation.


Which was thought a good thing at the time. Hitler liked the finale of Beethoven's Ninth - do we attach that context to it or have a longer term understanding of the context of things so we are not so temporally distorted we can get upset over an old march?



Sid James said:


> Another irony is that the poster boy - or poster family more appropriately - for this whole event, the Strauss waltz dynasty, they apparently had Jewish origins. But the Nazis like other dictatorships rewrote history to change that fact. Nice one! So when people got off the cattle cars arriving in Auschwitz, they where greeted by the music of the Strausses, among others of the German pantheon of music.


Well, there you go, finally a composer actually giving the people what they want: if you compose something populist enough, your ticket is written.

I am continually astonished at this thread-bare theme of a Nazi / Stalinist. etc. regime whose BUREAUCRATS attached some bit of music, by spit if not a lesser adhesive, to the music itself, and your taking it as a "Politicization" of music. I seriously think it is time to let it go, a near obsession running you.

Some, and only a few 'ideologies' are attached to music, and those are relatively inconsequential... Orff's Schulmusik or Hindemith's lesser successful attempt having some real social significance and worth. Wagner's musico-theatric aesthetic has nothing, really, to do with 'politics' other than Wagner was less than a genius when it came to libretti - so those are part and parcel of a very average middle class mentality of that time and place, nothing less, but something certainly nothing more.

So what are you 'asking for' anyway, a substitute piece at a concert festivity which has everyone feeling terrible and crying tears of blood about a dreadful massive scale event their grandparents participated in?



Sid James said:


> *But nobody remembers, so who cares?* Its similar with much else in history, especially European history. We had the worst genocides in history there, by the Nazis and Stalinists, but its all forgotten. Whitewashed by their great music, their great monuments, their great philosophy and all that stuff. Really made a difference to those who died in concentration camps, didn't it? (Not).


I for one am more than seriously insulted that you take this posture of 'The one who remembers of all who do not.' Its recurrence is frequent enough that a reader could easily feel bludgeoned or bullied by it. It is a self-conceit wherein what you claim to remember is from the generation before you, so you are not 'remembering' as much as influenced by what you learned from, and later of, that generation. You speak as if you are the sole soul on the planet carrying the torch, and it is beyond hubris in my book.

Let us add the most intense of all genocides, the American Indians, North and South American, over several hundreds of years, and on a scale not matched since. I'd just love to see what you make of the American Thanksgiving Holiday!

If you take to heart the reality of what was really most directly responsible for the holocaust, look no further than Christianity and the organized Christian Church: the faith itself and all its high holy days will never be the same.


----------



## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

I'll answer your post in order of your reply to my quotes, PetrB:

a) I think that my issue with rebuilding is that they went on as if nothing had happened. The Vienna State Opera was rebuilt almost exactly as it was before. The seating layout of the interior was determined by the rigid class/privelege hierarchies of the Habsburg period. The emperor had the best seat, everything else was subordinate to his seat in these layers of gradation. They did not modernise the seating arrangements, so you get people with the cheapest seats can hardly see the stage. Just a small section of the singer's feet. Is that 1950's or like 19th century? Same place as the kaiser sat, Hitler and Eichmann must have sat, then Austrian leaders after that, more recently Haider of the far right. The more things change, the more they stay the same. This is but one example of how they obsessively cling to the past, but of course a sanitised distortion of it.

b) I can assure you that the Radetzky March is not the only example like this, there are many such examples. Classical music is like a museum of these things, or more likely, an ossuary or graveyard of them.

c) Yes I am overding the ideology line here, I admit its been overkill, but if there is a thread to do it, this is it. With my recent reading, I have thought about doing a thread on Vienna, past and present. The musical 'ghosts' there. But since this forum has a number of people who would jump and shoot me down for doing such a thread, I have avoided it. This thread just gave me the chance to say these things.

d) If this thread was about a similar issue to do with America, eveyone would be over it in a rash. It would be like 10 or 20 pages long by now. Let's face it, its trendy to be anti-American, but not so trendy to be anti-European. Well, I admit I am very anti-Europe. Because unlike colonies like America or Australia, Europe did the big genocides of the 20th century well after the Enlightenment, well after all those high ideals and philosophies had been put in place. But nothing came of the Enlightenment in the 19th century, things went on with the ancien regimes as before. 1848 happened but it was a failure. Greece was liberated from the Turks, which was probably the only tangible outcome of all those high ideals. Apart from that 'business as usual.' But the USA and Australia, when the natives there where subjugated, oppressed and yes, killed, then it was much earlier, before Western civilisation had indeed a chance to be "civilised." What I'm saying is that being anti-Europe is just the same as being anti-anything. Europe is yet another sacred cow here. Well, I for one don't believe in sacred cows. Europe's more like a graveyard for me, and I question why I'm into classical music all the time. I'm thinking I'm just supporting this "art" that has a history that is basically about supporting various power structures, rarely if ever questioning them (or if they do, its just symbolic games for intelligentsia) and just going along with things as they always have been. But we got to pretend classical is superior to everything else, don't we. Makes us feel good for one thing.

Anyway if you want to continue this please PM me as its already gone way beyond the confines of this thread's topic.


----------



## violadude (May 2, 2011)

Uuggggg seriously? Another "classical music had connections to the Nazis" conversation? I'm sick of these.


----------



## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

PetrB said:


> If you take to heart the reality of what was really most directly responsible for the holocaust, look no further than Christianity and the organized Christian Church: the faith itself and all its high holy days will never be the same.


A bit hard to argue that. Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, all of them hated religion, where atheists, and between them killed like 100 million. True, Christian or any religious ideology taken to an extreme, has resulted in massacres and things like the Spanish Inquisition. But political ideologies in the 20th century taken to an extreme did harm on a massive scale as never before. Over the years on this forum I have argued for a more balanced view on religion. I realise I'm in a minority here. Don't forget that many Christian fought the Nazis in the resistance. Some payed the ultimate price. Same can be said in Communist regimes. Religion has inspired leaders to do good in the 20th century, like Gandhi and Martin Luther King for example. I think you are simplifying things here, but I've argued about this on this forum too many times, and to no avail.


----------



## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

violadude said:


> Uuggggg seriously? Another "classical music had connections to the Nazis" conversation? I'm sick of these.


Trust me, on this forum, if we had a thread on hip hop, techno or pop having connection to the genocide of millions, everyone would be jumping on the bandwagon. Yeah, music is good and can absolutely no harm if we like it, but if we don't, its bad. Just cos it is, all intellectual rationalisations aside. But whatever.


----------



## Huilunsoittaja (Apr 6, 2010)

PetrB said:


> If you take to heart the reality of what was really most directly responsible for the holocaust, look no further than Christianity and the organized Christian Church: the faith itself and all its high holy days will never be the same.


It is not Christianity but _Mankind _itself that brings about its own ruin. Atheists murder, "Christians" murder, Polytheists murder. It's not about "which" religion, sir. Man is doomed to its own retribution because it is inherently corrupt. _Everyone _is corrupt, and that's why we never find solutions to our problems from inside ourselves, with _or _without a man-made religion or belief system.

As a moderator, I think it right to say that both of you have destructive language right now, and should cease speaking about things you don't know the full extent of, or else you will both fall out. We can complain of all we want about Man's evil and point fingers, but you're never going to persuade the other of their folly. Feel your emotions, but typing words is as powerful as saying them, so choose your words wisely so as not to offend, and even if you feel offended. This forum is already filled with enough confused people, including myself to a degree...


----------



## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

Huilu, I've said all I need to say on this thread. As I said in my reply to PetrB, he is welcome to PM me about any of this. I admit this is a time for big changes for my thinking about classical music and its history, and that includes the issues on this thread.


----------



## BurningDesire (Jul 15, 2012)

Sid James said:


> Trust me, on this forum, if we had a thread on hip hop, techno or pop having connection to the genocide of millions, everyone would be jumping on the bandwagon. Yeah, music is good and can absolutely no harm if we like it, but if we don't, its bad. Just cos it is, all intellectual rationalisations aside. But whatever.


I would not jump on that bandwagon, thank you very much >_>


----------



## Cnote11 (Jul 17, 2010)

Huilunsoittaja said:


> It is not Christianity but _Mankind _itself that brings about its own ruin. Atheists murder, "Christians" murder, Polytheists murder


Those quotation marks sent a shiver down my spine.

I don't like this thread.


----------



## bigshot (Nov 22, 2011)

DavidA said:


> It's because people didn't 'rain' on certain parades that the Nazis came to power.


The Vienna Philharmonic existed long before Nazis. So did Strauss waltzes. And beer and pretzels. And German shepherds. And oom pa pa bands. Even New Year's Day celebrations. The relationship of those things to Nazis is circumstantial.


----------



## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

bigshot said:


> The Vienna Philharmonic existed long before Nazis. So did Strauss waltzes. And beer and pretzels. And German shepherds. And oom pa pa bands. Even New Year's Day celebrations. The relationship of those things to Nazis is circumstantial.


Its not just the Nazis. The whole Austrian culture is pretty toxic, if I can use that word? WOmen where only allowed in the Vienna Philharmonic in the 1980's or '90's. People can check for the exact date. There are hardly any ethnic minorities in the orchestra, despite Austria being pretty multicultural. This has been criticised by many writers. Its an anachronism, basically. Contrast that with Australia, where a woman became the concertmaster of the Melbourne Symphony Orchestra in the 1920's or '30's. I'd guess America was the same. I am just saying (fruitlessly) let's not delude ourselves of the wholesomeness of Austria, or indeed the other Central-East European countries. They got many skeletons in the closet. & Austria was the heart of the Habsburg Empire, its got the most skeletons. Its still got remnants of the past hanging around, heaps of them. Maestro Solti said it was the most anti Semitic place in Europe. He still worked there, but he was a man to speak his mind, not do whitewash.

Anyway, I should button my lip, this will get me no 'cred' here at all!


----------



## Cnote11 (Jul 17, 2010)

HA! Majority of countries in the world have great progress to make still. Just because some countries have better living standards does not mean they are in an acceptable place. Anyone who thinks otherwise is a complacent fool who is a prisoner of their own time.


----------



## Arsakes (Feb 20, 2012)

BurningDesire said:


> You know, there's injustice currently going on in the world. Is it really proactive to be constantly outraged for a horrific event that occurred generations ago? I can't put into words who horrific the Holocaust was, but there's new horrible things going on right this moment. If you care so damn much about the well-being of your fellow humans, about love and peace, why not put that outrage into something that you could potentially help with? You can't change the past.


Syria or Greece. Anyone?


----------



## BurningDesire (Jul 15, 2012)

Arsakes said:


> Syria or Greece. Anyone?


or if you're LGBT... pretty much anywhere.


----------



## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

Sid James said:


> A bit hard to argue that. Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, all of them hated religion, where atheists, and between them killed like 100 million. True, Christian or any religious ideology taken to an extreme, has resulted in massacres and things like the Spanish Inquisition. But political ideologies in the 20th century taken to an extreme did harm on a massive scale as never before. Over the years on this forum I have argued for a more balanced view on religion. I realise I'm in a minority here. Don't forget that many Christian fought the Nazis in the resistance. Some payed the ultimate price. Same can be said in Communist regimes. Religion has inspired leaders to do good in the 20th century, like Gandhi and Martin Luther King for example. I think you are simplifying things here, but I've argued about this on this forum too many times, and to no avail.


But you are whinging, mainly, about music pre 1900's, don't you see? It seems that you've attached the thing you love to another topic you have a more than passionate interest in, and then proceed to 'contextualize' from a very modern perspective things which existed happened in an entirely different time, place and context.

I Imagine every innocent Anglican Hymn from the century or so of British occupation /colonization has dreadful associations for the native occupants of those places. Maybe that is an essay for you all by itself.

I think much of what you think of as swept under the carpet was not swept under any carpet at all. Your polemic has it, I'm not sure what, that Europe should take out a billboard ad on the moon and to a global public advertise 'we messed up big time in the 20th century." It is quite normal that post apocalypse of any sort, the survivors spend more time and energy to restore order and some 'normalcy' in their lives, and do not spend the rest of the time in atonement or public displays of regret over their mistakes. The mistakes in these places -- which I have been to -- are more than known. Schoolchildren are drilled about those mistakes. There is a monument in the middle of St. Stephan's square, Wien, within a stone's throw of the cathedral, to the victims of the holocaust.

Where, in your town or mine, are the monuments to the native peoples who were subjugated, held in contempt, treated badly, killed? What local ditty from those times should we vilify simply because it happened to have been composed in the same era?

I think it patently absurd that you would even consider throwing nearly all the babies out with the bathwater over some truly miserable 20th century events due to political ideologies.

I will say it again and again, that most people, including artists, no matter how secretly or overtly they work toward bettering their society or government, make art 'as they can' and their lives run very much the same, getting by, around, and under something too monolithic for them to even make a dent at - their government, their neighboring nation's government.

If you care to ditch all classical music made, say, choose instead of the supposedly enlightened 20th century the age of enlightenment itself, leaving you nothing much later than Bach and Rameau (But one composed for the Church and evil nobles, the other for the evil Sun King of France.) You're left, then, with 'native' musics of non-western cultures, and oh, yeah, you're going to have to abandon the equally corrupt John Williams and both his film scores and classical pieces.

Give yourself a break, and everyone else as well, please.


----------



## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Sid James said:


> Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, all of them hated religion.


At the risk of becoming an object of hate and ridicule, I'd suggest that all of these people had their "religions." And that all acted out of the "best motives" as they saw them. None of them thought they were doing evil. My prayer: "Please, God, save us from True Believers."


----------



## BurningDesire (Jul 15, 2012)

Hitler was religious. o3o He and most of Germany were Christian. He believed he had god on his side.


----------



## violadude (May 2, 2011)

BurningDesire said:


> You know, there's injustice currently going on in the world. Is it really proactive to be constantly outraged for a horrific event that occurred generations ago? I can't put into words who horrific the Holocaust was, but there's new horrible things going on right this moment. If you care so damn much about the well-being of your fellow humans, about love and peace, why not put that outrage into something that you could potentially help with? You can't change the past.


Omg yes, thank you!

Earlier in this thread someone said "It's because people didn't 'rain' on certain parades that the Nazis came to power."

Well uhh...I don't know if you know this but Pakistan and Yemen are getting drone bombed constantly, people's houses in the Gaza Strip get bulldozed down all the time to make way for illegal settlements, the Taliban has their unjust control over women and children and education in Saudi Arabia and other places, in Uganda they just almost passed a bill that would allow the government to execute a homosexual couple just if they saw them holding hands in the street, the prison population in the USA is way too large and the prison industrial complex is systematically racist, in China, India and Indonesia a large percentage of the workers are practically slaves to big corporations...

WHY DON'T YOU RAIN ON ANY OF THEIR PARADES??? Don't waste your time raining on Hitler's parade over and over again! Hitler's dead! He doesn't care if you rain on his parade, he's DEAD. For goodness sake, you guys are like that kid from the Sixth Sense that is obsessed with dead people cause he can talk to them and you're wasting your time condemning Nazi's over and over and over again for the sake of "not repeating history" and your missing the atrocious history being made right now! Right under your noses.


----------



## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

BurningDesire said:


> Hitler was religious. o3o He and most of Germany were Christian. He believed he had god on his side.


Bunk! History reveals that whatever religion Hitler (and there is a good case for saying he was an atheist) had it was not Christian.


----------



## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

Petrb you're joking surely about John Williams being corrupt. He wrote the score to Schindler's List, the first film to show in detail what actually happened in the Shoah. Incidentally it was based on a novel written by an Australian, Thomas Keneally. He's had a committment to these issues, he has written novels of oppression in Australia's history and also of places like Africa. & talking of Australia, we got an Aboriginal on one of our banknotes:
http://www.creativespirits.info/abo...es/famous-David-Unaipon-on-50-dollar-note.jpg

I admitted that I'm anti Europe, what more do you want? If I am throwing out the baby with the bathwater, so be it. As usual, I'm the only one who does that on this forum, arent I?

As for what you say violadude, yes of course there is oppression and injustice in the world today. But we're talking of Vienna here. Here is a photo of policeman struggling to hold back the crowds cheering Hitler when he came in, Anschluss 1938:
http://histclo.com/imagef/date/2009/11/ans38-03s.jpg

Austria has in recent times had a far right government. Jorg Haider was basically a racist and a Holocaust denier (or downplayed it at least). Hungary has a far right government as well, and other countries in Europe currently have strong movements like this (France has had for decades).

That's the topic of this thread. Vienna, the fabled city of dreams. Well I think its really a city of nightmares. As I have demonstrated, these skeletons are hidden away behind all those facades, but scratch them a little and the edifice crumbles.

I can go on but i've had enough. It's 'shoot the messenger' time, that's what we've descended to on this thread, just like the members of this forum who I hate. Who have done this time and time again against me for making controversial threads like this. Such is their 'democracy.' Well its not democracy. 
*
Good on you DavidA for making this thread!*


----------



## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

Retracted, 'nuff said already, I think....


----------



## Flamme (Dec 30, 2012)

Yup definitely british


----------



## bigshot (Nov 22, 2011)

People spend WAY too much time around here talking about the politics tangentially related to music and precious little talking about the music itself. I think there are more than a few around here who don't really enjoy or appreciate classical music. They just like the culture of it.

It's like the opera snob who arrives at the opera just in time for the first act intermission so he can say catty things about the advancing age of the soprano, and then escapes to a bar down the street until second act intermission when he can gossip about how tired the tenor sounds.


----------



## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

bigshot said:


> People spend WAY too much time around here talking about the politics tangentially related to music and precious little talking about the music itself. I think there are more than a few around here who don't really enjoy or appreciate classical music. They just like the culture of it.
> 
> It's like the opera snob who arrives at the opera just in time for the first act intermission so he can say catty things about the advancing age of the soprano, and then escapes to a bar down the street until second act intermission when he can gossip about how tired the tenor sounds.


I would suggest that the murder of 6 million people is not quite in the same league as saying catty things about an elderly soprano!


----------



## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

violadude said:


> Omg yes, thank you!
> 
> Earlier in this thread someone said "It's because people didn't 'rain' on certain parades that the Nazis came to power."
> 
> ...


Well, are you raining on the current parades you talk about? I hope so.


----------



## KRoad (Jun 1, 2012)

bigshot said:


> The Vienna Philharmonic existed long before Nazis. So did Strauss waltzes. And beer and pretzels. And German shepherds. And oom pa pa bands. Even New Year's Day celebrations. The relationship of those things to Nazis is circumstantial.


Circumstantial indeed - but therein lies (regrettably) substance. Today, I celebrate 25 years of living in Berlin. There are many positive things to be said about this city and this country, and yet... I have found that beneath a veneer of fashionable, educated middle-class liberal idealism lies an unsavoury, DEEPLY ingrained cultural and racial intolerance towards those with anything less than pure white skin. Having attended conferences in Vienna, my impression is of a deeply artistically constipated populace with a "let's keep it white" kind of mind set that makes the Berliner's appear positively Apollo (theatre that is) by comparison. VPO on New Years? Vomit, vomit, vomit!


----------



## SiegendesLicht (Mar 4, 2012)

Hmmm... could it have anything to do with the fact that most non-whites one would see in Berlin or Vienna don't really care about classical music?


----------



## KRoad (Jun 1, 2012)

SiegendesLicht said:


> Hmmm... could it have anything to do with the fact that most non-whites one would see in Berlin or Vienna don't really care about classical music?


No, I think not. After all, classical music comes in more flavours than vanilla. No?


----------



## SiegendesLicht (Mar 4, 2012)

KRoad said:


> No, I think not. After all, classical music comes in more flavours than vanilla. No?


You are certainly more knowledgeable on this subject than I am. I am sure there are other kinds, and each of them deserves to preserve its original taste and its God-given place beneath the Sun.


----------



## KRoad (Jun 1, 2012)

SiegendesLicht said:


> You are certainly more knowledgeable on this subject than I am. I am sure there are other kinds, and each of them deserves to preserve its original taste and its God-given place beneath the Sun.


And how, in your eloquence, might you define "God-given place" in a global, multi-cultural context, sir?


----------



## Flamme (Dec 30, 2012)

KRoad said:


> Circumstantial indeed - but therein lies (regrettably) substance. Today, I celebrate 25 years of living in Berlin. There are many positive things to be said about this city and this country, and yet... I have found that beneath a veneer of fashionable, educated middle-class liberal idealism lies an unsavoury, DEEPLY ingrained cultural and racial intolerance towards those with anything less than pure white skin. Having attended conferences in Vienna, my impression is of a deeply artistically constipated populace with a "let's keep it white" kind of mind set that makes the Berliner's appear positively Apollo (theatre that is) by comparison. VPO on New Years? Vomit, vomit, vomit!


Well im safe then...My dad has a sicilian sun tan in the summer but i cause of myms czech origins am blonde brown blue eyed aryan lol


----------



## KRoad (Jun 1, 2012)

Flamme said:


> Well im safe then...My dad has a sicilian sun tan in the summer but i cause of myms czech origins am blonde brown blue eyed aryan lol


Thank goodness!


----------



## SiegendesLicht (Mar 4, 2012)

Fortunately I don't need to do any defining on my own, it has always been done by various governments, sometimes by the Earth's geography and by the course of historical development of various cultures and civilizations.


----------



## Flamme (Dec 30, 2012)

And i have a snub nose lol


----------



## Flamme (Dec 30, 2012)

BurningDesire said:


> lol Scumbag Hitler X3


But one must admit that he had some artistic spirit and inclination and because of that saved for example Paris from bombing and destruction...


----------



## KRoad (Jun 1, 2012)

SiegendesLicht said:


> Fortunately I don't need to do any defining on my own, it has always been done by various governments, sometimes by the Earth's geography and by the course of historical development of various cultures and civilizations.


Far too dismissive sir, and too easy by far. Please elaborate on your pronouncement: "each of them deserves to preserve its original taste and its God-given place beneath the Sun."


----------



## Flamme (Dec 30, 2012)

Imagine this guy conquering Moscow or Paris...







He would make an minaret out of the Eiffels tower if he let it survive undamaged in the first place or Mosque out of the Notre dame cathedral


----------



## SiegendesLicht (Mar 4, 2012)

I will probably get banned for this, but I'll just say it plain: there are various musical traditions: Western (Berlin and Vienna being some of its centers), East Asian, Arabic, African, Native American etc and each one of them has a right to exist, but it doesn not mean all of them should be crowded into Berlin or into Vienna. If the citizens of these cities or the management of the VPO believe they could do without some of them or just keep to their own, Western, musical tradition, no "multicultural committee" has a right to force them do otherwise. In the same way nobody would have the right to force, say, an orchestra in Tokio to perform Bach and Beethoven instead of Japanese music, unless they and their audience want to do it themselves.

PS. I think it was your own chancellor, Frau Merkel, who has admitted not so long ago that multiculturalism doesn't work, but it has already nothing to do with music.


----------



## Guest (Jan 2, 2013)

I don't get all of this. The bottom line is this: all of what exists today has historical context. Big deal - like anybody is claiming that everything is constantly created ex nihilo. Yes, we should learn history, but we shouldn't allow history to remain a noose perpetually around our necks. I'm going to drop a bomb on you all - there is a hell of a lot of stuff that goes on today in very harmless ways that originated from less than savory events.

Smallpox vaccine - did you know that Jenner engaged in immoral experimentation on orphan children with his smallpox vaccine? True story. And what does that mean? Damned if I know. The result was that we eradicated an illness that killed untold millions in the past. Jenner wasn't the first to vaccinate, but his vaccination proved the concept and was the basis for the modern vaccine. Would it have been better that he tested it in a more ethical manner? Absolutely. But there it is.

Hitler accelerated the halted construction of the German autobahn. Must Germans also endure self-loathing and vow to never forget the evil of their past every time they drive at high speeds in their BMWs on the autobahn? Should they scrap the entire system out of deference to the evil nature of its origins?

We should also despise any cotton products made in the USA, because you know that the American cotton industry was founded on the backs of African slave labor! Surely the cotton produced in the U.S. South today continues to be tainted by that past.

Dig into the history of pretty much anything and you will find some reason to condemn it. Let's stop being ridiculous - going the the Vienna New Year's concert is not going to instill longings for the coming of the 4th Reich. Learning history is a good thing - but some people like to only dig up just enough information that they can then use to beat others over the head with.


----------



## SiegendesLicht (Mar 4, 2012)

Aaahhh, the more threads like this one, the bigger Germanophile I feel I am becoming. I think I'll hear me _Die Meistersinger von Nürnberg_ finale before going to bed.






Lovely, isn't it?

_Gute Nacht, meine lieben! _


----------



## Flamme (Dec 30, 2012)

In that name...


----------



## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

DrMike said:


> ...
> Dig into the history of pretty much anything and you will find some reason to condemn it. Let's stop being ridiculous - going the the Vienna New Year's concert is not going to instill longings for the coming of the 4th Reich. Learning history is a good thing - but some people like to only dig up just enough information that they can then use to beat others over the head with.


As I said earlier, this thread is about Vienna but of course all places have unsavoury aspects of their history. & the past tends to affect the present. This is what I'm saying to things like what violadude said too. Austria in recent years has had issues with things like this, as I said the Haider government.

In any case, I am repeating myself. To be practical, a thing done at events here (esp. at universities, even at some concerts I have been at universities) is that the original Aboriginal owners of the land are acknowledged. Its just in a short sentence spoken before the concert. No fanfare or hoopla. Maybe in Vienna before this concert every year they can do something to acknowlege for example the Jewish musicians who played in it but where deported to the concentration camps. Something like that, something simple would maybe be part of acknowledging all this sorry history. Its just an idea, that's it. In Australia we are also dealing with the ghosts so to speak of our past. Not only of the Aboriginal peoples but of people who came here after the war. In recent weeks, the Australian government mandated that all school children have to learn about the Holocaust. These things are of course outside of music but linked as well. This was not just some earthquake or a tornado, it was a unique event in history. Its an issue to do with all peoples, not just Austria or Europe.


----------



## Vaneyes (May 11, 2010)

Almost every day on some history channel, WWII is refought. Enough is enough.


----------



## samurai (Apr 22, 2011)

Vaneyes said:


> Almost every day on some history channel, WWII is refought. Enough is enough.


I'm sure that Sid isn't advocating fighting WW 2 all over again. I think that what he--and I--are simply asking for is that we all not forget some of the historical contexts--both geographically and time-wise-- in which some great music has either been composed or is in fact still being performed. I, for one, wouldn't want any Germans not to attend any of the Wagner festivals because he was an anti-semite. However, I would like it if there was some acknowledgement {brief is fine} at these gatherings {as Sid so aptly pointed out} that some Jewish musicians were in fact killed by the Nazi regime only because of their religion.
This would be a way--IMHO--of both paying respect to their memories and insuring that we do not in fact forget history.


----------



## bigshot (Nov 22, 2011)

I'd love to see an Angolan in liederhosen.

I don't see any reason why people in Mongolia should include Australians in their holiday celebrations any more than Austrians should reflect the whole entire world in their ethnic traditions. I think the differences between cultures are what make them interesting. If the whole world was blended into a shade of gray, it would be terribly boring.

I don't see how any recognition of any anniversary is necessary, except for the anniversary of the new year.


----------



## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

^^*Samurai,* n terms of that, below is an acknowledgement of the Aboriginal people that is said at events I was talking about. At eg. the beginning of concerts, conferences, and I know this is also said in council chambers and parliaments across Australia. Of course, the name of the Aboriginal tribe is changed to relate to the specific area. Here is the one for Sydney University:

_Before we begin the proceedings, I would like to acknowledge and pay respect to the traditional owners of the land on which we meet - (the Gadigal people of the Eora Nation). It is upon their ancestral lands that the University of Sydney is built.

As we share our own knowledge, teaching, learning, and research practices within this University may we also pay respect to the knowledge embedded forever within the Aboriginal Custodianship of Country._

Source: http://sydney.edu.au/koori/aboutus/ackowledgement.shtml

Members of this forum can imagine how to write something like this acknowledging the wrongs done in terms of Jewish members of the VPO. Trust me, Sydney Uni is one of Australia's quite conservative and establishment universities. Making this acknowledgement did not come easily. The first Aboriginal student in that uni and in Australia was the late Charles Perkins, who I think studied law, and he did his degree in the 1960's. Acknowledging the wrongs of the past and making changes accordingly is never easy, esp. for long established institutions like a uni or orchestra. But it has to be done imo.


----------



## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

bigshot said:


> I don't see how any recognition of any anniversary is necessary, except for the anniversary of the new year.


Then why the hell are opera houses across the world, including Australia, recognising the anniversary of Wagner this year? What the hell does he got to do with us? Or Americans? Or anybody except the groupies who go to Bayreuth?


----------



## bigshot (Nov 22, 2011)

_As we share our own knowledge, teaching, learning, and research practices within this University may we also pay respect to the knowledge embedded forever within the Aboriginal Custodianship of Country._

That statement is completely absurd. It's like recognizing every owner of a house you buy whenever you walk through the front door. Someone is just double thinking their ancestors and paying apologetic lip service.


----------



## bigshot (Nov 22, 2011)

Sid James said:


> Then why the hell are opera houses across the world, including Australia, recognising the anniversary of Wagner this year? What the hell does he got to do with us? Or Americans? Or anybody except the groupies who go to Bayreuth?


Wagner is Wagner. He created something himself. Huge operas full of wonderful music. He didn't just decide to have a concert every January first to play Strauss waltzes. Any party planner can do that.


----------



## Guest (Jan 3, 2013)

So who decides which events merit such recognition. Sure, there are some pretty big, obvious ones, but start with those, and then all others who feel they have some claim of grievance will be demanding their share. It never ends. And we can remember the past without having to constantly memorialize it. There is a time and place for everything. The time and place for reviewing history is in these funny little things we have created called history courses. I don't think that we need to constantly engage in self-flagellation and self-loathing before any and every event even remotely tied to horrible events of the past. And besides - how long must we all pay the price? Have the Australian aborigines been abused within the lifetime of anyone now living? Are the current generation of Germans and Austrians still required to atone for the genocidal anti-semitism of their past? Are Americans of today still culpable for the slaughter of American Indians and the enslavement of Africans? Remembrance is not dependent on constant apologizing. I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but 90% of human history is unpleasant. We look back to events like the Holocaust and slavery because they are, historically speaking, very recent. But there have always been atrocities. With very few exceptions, no population in its current location originated in that spot - all of history is of one population moving in on another. Why don't we demand the Italians and the French and the Scandinavians and the Saxons and the Angles and etc., etc. acknowledge before all their cultural events the incessant overrunning of the British Isles throughout history? Let's get the Persians and the Egyptians and the Greeks and the Italians to say their mea culpas over their overrunning of Israel/Palestine. While we are at it, lets get the modern descendants of the Moors to apologize for their overrunning of Spain.

Let us learn from history, but let us not become slaves to history and some misguided need to perpetually atone for the sins of those long dead.


----------



## bigshot (Nov 22, 2011)

No one owes for the sins of our fathers. We only owe for what we ourselves do. People love to deflect their own debts to those of people long dead. It's very convenient to be ashamed for dead people instead of ourselves.


----------



## Guest (Jan 3, 2013)

Words are merely that - words. I think the best way to honor those who have suffered and been persecuted in the past is to ensure that those past crimes are not repeated. To prevent future atrocities says more about how far we have come as a civilization that any words of feigned sincerity mindlessly recited at the beginning of events by people uninvolved in those events, to people who were not victims of said events. 

What would be a better memorial to VPO victims of the Holocaust - some rote repetition of a statement determined to be appropriately empathetic prior to performances of the VPO on New Years Day, or the bringing to justice of the criminals and efforts to stamp out anti-semitism wherever found?


----------



## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

Europe got rid of two thirds of its Jews. Apart from that, which is 6 million people, at least 5 million other so called undesirables where killed. Gypsies, political opponents of the Nazi regime (esp. Communists and leftists), Christians, people with disabilities. This is not counting the civilian casualties due to bombings, starvation, disease, etc. Nor is it counting military personnel killed.

The 2nd world war was no ordinary event. I'm sure that far right leaders in Europe like Berlusconi of Italy or Haider of Austria would argue the opposite, with all manner of rationalisations, but it does not make them right in the slightest.

I stand by Australia's continuing recognition of injustices done here and I think we can serve as a model of how to deal with these types of admittedly difficult issues. The 'head in sand' attitude does not resolve these types of issues, indeed, it can just make them worse - both for individuals who lived through these events and those of future generations trying to make sense of them.


----------



## samurai (Apr 22, 2011)

Dr. Mike, I couldn't agree with you more on this. So why can't both things be done? The words and actions/deeds do not have to be mutually exclusive.


----------



## Guest (Jan 3, 2013)

samurai said:


> Dr. Mike, I couldn't agree with you more on this. So why can't both things be done? The words and actions/deeds do not have to be mutually exclusive.


Because then the perpetually aggrieved step in and start beating us all over the head with it, and then everybody wants in on the action. If this group deserves recognition, then why not mine? And then the true tragedies get cheapened when everybody feels that their own pet grievances are somehow on the same level as truly horrendous events. Don't believe me? How many different groups in the U.S. try to equate their struggles with that of slavery? Or to the Holocaust?

Look, if groups voluntarily decide to do some things like this, more power to them. But I think it is ridiculous to legislate remorse, as it appears Australia is doing. And really, do the actual victims feel better for this? I don't know since we can't ask them. I think it is more for people who need to fill some narcissistic desire to appear that they care in front of large groups of people.


----------



## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

I must talk of my 'investment' in this issue as an Australian of European background. I had relatives who lived through the war and its aftermath. They witnessed and suffered through the war as civilians.

As for Australia, and I do see myself as firstly Australian, our troops suffered from war crimes done by the Japanese. Australians fighting in the pacific where in POW camps, the worst in the world, many died building the Burma railway (slave labor, basically) and others where executed in the most brutal ways (eg. by decapitation). THe Japanese did not know about this until about the last two decades. An Australian film screened there called Blood Oath (it was one of Russell Crowe's early films btw) and Japanese audiences where shocked and came crying out of the cinemas.

Last year, the Japanese government paid Australian survivors of the POW camps to go to Japan and give talks about what happened. This is similar, but a 'live' version, of the Shoah Foundation for survivors of the Holocaust, set up in the USA (partly by the director Stephen Spielberg).

So there you go, the Japanese want to know from these ageing war veterans what happened. The veteran being interveiwed on radio said that he was apprehensive about going to Japan for the first time since the war, to the land of 'the Enemy.' He had to face his demons, as did his audience, most of whom would not yet been born when the war happened.

Anyway, I must say I am dealing with my demons. My assessment of what happened in the country of my heritage is not rosy. I think very lowly of the culture of that country. It is still dealing with issues of racism, xenophobia, fear of 'the other,' militarism, inability to deal with and suspicions of democracy, seeking the comfort of the old ways, and so on. I am just as scathing of that country as I am with any that does not deal with its past and thus opens the way for repetitions and continuations of injustices of the past. Whether they got great music or not, doesn't make a difference.


----------



## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

DrMike said:


> I don't get all of this. The bottom line is this: all of what exists today has historical context. Big deal - like anybody is claiming that everything is constantly created ex nihilo. Yes, we should learn history, but we shouldn't allow history to remain a noose perpetually around our necks. I'm going to drop a bomb on you all - there is a hell of a lot of stuff that goes on today in very harmless ways that originated from less than savory events.
> 
> Smallpox vaccine - did you know that Jenner engaged in immoral experimentation on orphan children with his smallpox vaccine? True story. And what does that mean? Damned if I know. The result was that we eradicated an illness that killed untold millions in the past. Jenner wasn't the first to vaccinate, but his vaccination proved the concept and was the basis for the modern vaccine. Would it have been better that he tested it in a more ethical manner? Absolutely. But there it is.
> 
> ...


Question: did Jenner murder 6 million people with his experiments? We are surely dealing with different things here. One was a scientist who was seeking to eradicate disease and was not too particular on how he experimented. That is not to defend what he did but to see the motive behind it. The Nazis deliberately set out to murder a whole race. Somewhat different motives I think.


----------



## Guest (Jan 3, 2013)

DavidA said:


> Question: did Jenner murder 6 million people with his experiments? We are surely dealing with different things here. One was a scientist who was seeking to eradicate disease and was not too particular on how he experimented. That is not to defend what he did but to see the motive behind it. The Nazis deliberately set out to murder a whole race. Somewhat different motives I think.


And the apology of those who played no part in the atrocity does what exactly to ameliorate it? Was the New Years concert in Vienna created as a program to aid in the genocide? If so, then by all means do away with it. The Nazis were evil, bit that doesn't make their every action evil. We don't need to lament everything they did. Just the evil things. I don't count starting a harmless New Years concert as one of their evil actions. It would be just as ridiculous as posting signs on all German autobahn onramps apologizing in advance that people are driving on a traffic system constructed under Nazi direction. It is a stupid idea that we must lament the Vienna New Years concert.


----------



## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

Sid James said:


> Then why the hell are opera houses across the world, including Australia, recognising the anniversary of Wagner this year? What the hell does he got to do with us? Or Americans? Or anybody except the groupies who go to Bayreuth?


Uh, context: they are OPERA houses. They are not sociopolitical organizations set up to recognize 'what is socially or politically relevant to the people of that place,' that was clear from the outset. Are they 'relevant' now? They continually select works which get performed and the houses are generally sold out.

As much as you might care to think, any and all of the music of Peter Sculthorpe has jackbeans all nothing to do with 'Australia' Aborigines or the rest... In fact, that kind of 'copy' around a composer's work is more current P.C. Speak now expected to sell a work to an audience than anything to do with the reality his is as synthetic and artificial a "product" as are Wagner's productions. Sculthorpe's 'aboriginal' scores are no more 'aboriginal' than Wagner's are truly antique Germanic lore or sensibility.

Classical music is one of the most extreme of totally arbitrary and synthetic artifices you can imagine -- so, following en suite, is Andrew Lloyd Weber's Phantom of the Opera, a fourth-rate yellow period dime novel turned into a bit of musical theater fluff floating on the vapors of the deceased opera composer Puccini... who also composed another batch of utterly synthetic and artificial confabs of sentiment and melodrama which people flock to where ever and whenever they are performed.

None of it has anything to do with 'the people' or 'political' relevance or whatever your concerns are in those areas.

All it is -- ready? is "Entertainment." Some of it, it seems, hits people around the world, who have no connection to the cultures where it developed, as profoundly moving, satisfying to listen to, with attributes of the power to conjure up, abstract as it is, the most intimate and deeply personal emotions an art form can possibly evoke.

It seems for many, at least of that two or so percent who consume classical music on a regular basis, classical music has become the Rorschach blot of our deepest emotions, and thoughts. What is made of it by the listener reflects more about the listener than can ever be determined of what the composer was thinking, feeling, or intended.

In your case, it repeatedly brings up all your personal issues. Not every other persons reactions to the identical materials are anywhere near what yours seem to be.

I think you are projecting, madly, big-time, onto these art forms, attaching to some particular works from a time and place what those you accuse of politicizing them had no greater success with... because those works ARE INDEPENDENT of your issues, and those politicians.

In that regard, it is amazing how 'teflon like' Wagner or any other music you can name is. It stands alone, with almost unflappable strength. Nothing sticks to it other than 'what it is.'

The Lord of the rings, as literature, and the film, with its music score, is another equally confab synthetic bit of artifice. The only truths or politics in it are those people project. One could damn Peter Jackson for racism for making the Orcs not only black, but completely unsympathetically inhuman, or does one get on Tolkien's case for that? Of what 'relevance' do the Edda or Beowulf have to anyone alive today?

You are acting, to me, who is of your generation or older, as if someone just discovered all this history for the first time. I have probably met and personally known more people whose entire past families were wiped out, exterminated in that war, than you have or will. The only troubles I have with Wagner are on an aesthetic plane, because that is all he was really about.

You can bet when the natal or death anniversary of Puccini, Verdi, Mozart, or later, not wishing it, John Adams, or any composer who ever wrote a fairly popular opera, that opera houses around the world will make much ado about that particular composer's works, and mount them in a blaze of celebratory publicity in those years.

Since all classical music is utterly a synthetic conceit, clearly, as consumed by less than three percent of the world's population, it stands very plainly as an elitist entertainment. That might also make it 'exclusive' 'decadent' 'effete' and anti populist -- all of it, down to the most 'populist' piece which came therefrom.

If that truly repels you, seems egregious according to your principles, you should abandon consuming and supporting it completely, and now. If it does nothing but trigger the most negative of your memories, pulls open the darkest drawer of your innermost pathology, then, like an alcoholic needs to avoid alcohol, forever, perhaps you need to do the same with classical music.

This is not a reaction because I 'want my classical music left untouched by the darker elements which surround it,' I know my history and music history, TYVM. It is because I think you are so preoccupied that you are corrupting the music for yourself, making it, as you say "Toxic" as far as your personal experience.

I'd heartily suggest first working through and exorcising your personal demons, then see what remains, and only then re-visit the art to see what it then evokes.

Dude, the Israel Philharmonic has performed Wagner in Tel-Aviv, the navel of an entire populace more loaded for bear with negative extra-musical associations about that particular music and its associative misuse. If they can deal with their discomfort, in fact many confessing that they secretly loved it all along but because of social pressure would not admit it publicly, then I think you can manage to do the same.

Opera not your cuppa? Don't patronize it. Simples.


----------



## bigshot (Nov 22, 2011)

I think the only appropriate action is for each and every one of us to wear a sign around our necks apologizing for the actions of everyone else. That way we can avoid taking responsibility for what we ourselves do.


----------



## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

bigshot said:


> I think the only appropriate action is for each and every one of us to wear a sign around our necks apologizing for the actions of everyone else. That way we can avoid taking responsibility for what we ourselves do.


A while back, in my more casual context of decades, one of the Popes issued a formal apology for all the vilification of the Jews the church had made, and for the ill treatment that had resulted from that, including previous horrible actions more directly taken by the Catholic church.

When a very sharp and good humored Rabbi from Brooklyn or in and around New York, in a brief on the street television interview, was asked what he thought of the Pope's announcement (which was thought to be a very big deal) the good Rabbi shrugged his shoulders, made a wry smile, and said,

"You can not apologize for something you did not do."

Amen to that.


----------



## emiellucifuge (May 26, 2009)

The holocaust is not shoved under a carpet here in Europe as I feel some people are insinuating.

The 2nd world war was a stupidly big part of my education as a young child in the UK. Every day I walk past the cratered wall of the Victoria & Albert museum, left as a memorial to the wars victims.

In Amsterdam I frequently passed a number of memorials and also the house where Anne Frank lived. Last year the newspapers published a complete listing of the homes from which Jews were taken - of course many of the houses on my street were listed. Every year there is a memorial service with a national moment of silence which is always observed.

I have travelled extensively through Europe and seen much of the same, in France, Germany, Scandinavia, Poland, Greece, Italy, Belgium, you name it...

Is it really 'drawing the curtains' when we choose, in spite of the constant reminders, to enjoy the present peace?


----------



## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

All this over what I said, all that demolition job, Petrb?

Anyway, people, listen to Schnittke's 'string trio' for a reflection on Vienna's sad and sorry past. It was written for the 100th anniversary of Berg's birth and the 50th of his death. Here, a composer who life was basically made very difficult by the Nazis, they withdrew his royalties. There are references to Berg's music in Schnittke's score, as well as music by Mahler and Schubert. The ghostly theme of 'happy birthday to you' goes through the work, and it aint a happy birthday, if you know what I mean.

No need to target me, what about targeting this culture that is still very anti Semitic? The Austrian culture, and by extension, the rest of central-East Europe. If Australian classical music is just as artificial and eurocentric as European, so be it. But we've built a society here that actually in some ways acknowledges the past wrongs done to others so the society as a whole can move on. Even the Japanese are beginning to do that. Many countries are.

It looks to me that the Vienna is a symbol for me of all that is wrong with the culture of Mitteleuropa. One writer I have been reading is more scathing of it than I, he calls it a cancer that could not be cut out, despite all these years since 1945. On one side of the iron curtain, in Austria and former West Germany, you had Western democracy, but that still (as we can see) has not changed some basic attitudes, some 'problematic' issues in the culture. On the other side of the iron curtain, around 40 years of Communist rule, supposedly redressing these wrongs, but again imposing ideology and brutality of a different kind on the people, didn't fix anything either. They all got strong far right movements today. Does Australia, Petrb?

Anyway, I can go on. These issues have always been discomfiting for these countries. When Marlene Dietrich went to Germany after playing the role of the 'head in sand' German in the film Trial at Nuremberg, she was called a traitor by her fellow Germans, she was literally spat on in the street. This was in 1961.

Australia apologised to the Aborigines, Prime Minister Rudd did it less than ten years ago. Here there was also debate under the previous Howard government, who refused to apologise because of fear it would bring litigation and lawsuits from those wronged and their families. Money and realpolitik are always the issues behind these types of things. Same here.

Maybe its discomfiting, this issue and other threads about history/context for which I've been singled out by the likes of some guy, stlukes, rapide and now surprisingly you, Petrb. Shoot the messenger. Well now there will be no messenger. There will be nobody on this forum to question the corrupt edifice that is classical music overall. Which is same as Lloyd Webber or John Williams who you seem to be obsessed with hating (since I like them)? People around here seem to be obsessed with throwing in people's faces what they don't like, or pulling down what they like. Wtf? Anyway, you've had your fun, I've had mine. I've put things on the table, not many others here have.

*I had relatives go through the war and the aftermath of it. I had relatives witness war crimes and be imprisoned for political reasons. Samurai has stated that he had relatives perish in the Holocaust. Our relatives where not sitting in cushy concert halls listening to music with high officials of the Nazi party all around, I can tell you. Our relatives where suffering as a result of this corrupt and decayed, this toxic culture.*

But how can any of you understand that? With your own experiences that are different. Yeah classical music is pure. Pull the other ****ing leg, will you? Pigs might fly. Pop and techno and hip hop and rock, they're all impure and decadent. So is jazz (which the Nazis and Stalinists hated). I see a worrying similarity with Modernist dogma and those who value the old (mainly Germanic?) canon around here. I mean those who worship it in a way and use it as a fetish and shield.

Anyway, its goodbye for me on this forum, at least for any political threads. Theres many uncharitable, abraisive, insensitive and unkind people around here. People with very pointed arrows.

You can have your decontextualised white cube guys. Eat it! Take it! Denial does not exist! There are no problems in classicaland. None at all.

We don't know history (or worse, don't want to know it). We don't want to learn from others. We just want ear candy.


----------



## KRoad (Jun 1, 2012)

SiegendesLicht said:


> I will probably get banned for this, but I'll just say it plain: there are various musical traditions: Western (Berlin and Vienna being some of its centers), East Asian, Arabic, African, Native American etc and each one of them has a right to exist, but it doesn not mean all of them should be crowded into Berlin or into Vienna.


A completely valid point of view. My concern is rather with the narrow _Weltanschauung_ that seems to characterise our neighbours to the south. In my mind the VPO encapsulates this, why however, I am at a loss to explain. Just a hunch - but I could be wrong.


----------



## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

Sid James said:


> All this over what I said, all that demolition job, Petrb?
> 
> Anyway, people, listen to Schnittke's 'string trio' for a reflection on Vienna's sad and sorry past. It was written for the 100th anniversary of Berg's birth and the 50th of his death. Here, a composer who life was basically made very difficult by the Nazis, they withdrew his royalties. There are references to Berg's music in Schnittke's score, as well as music by Mahler and Schubert. The ghostly theme of 'happy birthday to you' goes through the work, and it aint a happy birthday, if you know what I mean.
> 
> ...


.... If you don't agree with me, I will try and make you feel guilty, if you have less than an extreme polarized black and white point of view on this, you are doomed, "you are either with me or against me,"

Does that sort of rhetoric sound REMOTELY FAMILIAR TO YOU? 
Imagine it in a very loud, high shrill voice, from a little guy with a pencil moustache...


----------



## Flamme (Dec 30, 2012)

emiellucifuge said:


> The holocaust is not shoved under a carpet here in Europe as I feel some people are insinuating.
> 
> The 2nd world war was a stupidly big part of my education as a young child in the UK. Every day I walk past the cratered wall of the Victoria & Albert museum, left as a memorial to the wars victims.
> 
> ...


And behind Iron curtain millions of russians poles and others were taught that nazism and fascism are an tow irons fists for the western imperialism...


----------



## Guest (Jan 3, 2013)

Let us not forget, as well, that in many instances, we have already made a significant "payment" for many of our past evils - often that payment being in blood. In the United States, over half a million lives were lost in our Civil War that brought an end to slavery. In World War II, military deaths alone accounted for over 16 million lives from the Allies and over 8 million lives from the Axis. Does that pay for all the lives lost in the Holocaust? I don't know how much could ever atone for that, but I know that 24 million dead goes a long way. We don't bury our heads in the sand. By claiming so, you do a grave disservice to those who sacrificed themselves to end such evil. Often willingly.

Do we really believe that those victims, and those who gave their lives to end such evils, would have their descendents perpetually apologizing for the mistakes of the past, no matter how evil? If I do harm to another, would I expect my children and grandchildren to be condemned, in perpetuity, to apologize for my actions to the descendents of those I offended? 

I have never said we should forget these evils - I simply don't believe that the ideas espoused on here are the proper way to remember. They should be taught. But then the best way to prove that we have not forgotten is not to recite banal apologies until people lose all interest in the purpose of the apology, but rather to be vigilant and ensure that such evils are never again perpetrated. Actions speak louder than words. Many words were expended in the wake of WWI to atone for that war - and only a few decades later we had WWII. 

You want a perfect example of how useless a prepared statement recited at the beginning of any event is? How often do you stop to read the entire warning against copyright infringement, and the threats from Interpol, included in the beginning of all movies distributed for home viewing?


----------



## Guest (Jan 3, 2013)

Sid James said:


> It looks to me that the Vienna is a symbol for me of all that is wrong with the culture of Mitteleuropa. One writer I have been reading is more scathing of it than I, he calls it a cancer that could not be cut out, despite all these years since 1945. On one side of the iron curtain, in Austria and former West Germany, you had Western democracy, but that still (as we can see) has not changed some basic attitudes, some 'problematic' issues in the culture. On the other side of the iron curtain, around 40 years of Communist rule, supposedly redressing these wrongs, but again imposing ideology and brutality of a different kind on the people, didn't fix anything either. They all got strong far right movements today. Does Australia, Petrb?
> 
> Anyway, I can go on. These issues have always been discomfiting for these countries. When Marlene Dietrich went to Germany after playing the role of the 'head in sand' German in the film Trial at Nuremberg, she was called a traitor by her fellow Germans, she was literally spat on in the street. This was in 1961.


There will always be those who can see nothing but evil in any society. There is no way to ever sate the malcontents. Here in the United States, there will always be those who see nothing but racism and bigotry in each and every action, and who will never let the South forget the sins of its past. Apparently the same goes for Germany and Austria. No matter what advances are made, every single solitary incident of racism and anti-semitism will be viewed as undeniable proof that the roots are still rotten. I can't help that. But any truly objective observer looking at the world today will have to conclude that much has improved in the more than half a century since the Holocaust. Are we done with the work? No. Humanity is ever going to be a work in progress. It is not a sin that we have not yet reached perfection - it is only a sin when we stop striving to better ourselves. We look where we are, evaluate how it differs from where we want to be, and make course corrections. But we can never truly move forward if we are endlessly trying in vain to correct all the evils of the past.


----------



## SiegendesLicht (Mar 4, 2012)

*DrMike*, I think you are the wisest man of all who have ever said anything in this thread. I just can't give you enough likes


----------



## Arsakes (Feb 20, 2012)

17th-early 20th century Austria was a reaction to another blight "Ottoman Empire". If Ottoman Empire wasn't conquering and weakening eastern and mid-eastern European kingdoms (Socially and Economically), Austria couldn't conquer them and keep them as its state. We can see Hungry was annexed by Austria and later Bohemia-Moravia, Romania and other weak countries though some by Hungry itself.


----------



## Flamme (Dec 30, 2012)

DrMike said:


> Let us not forget, as well, that in many instances, we have already made a significant "payment" for many of our past evils - often that payment being in blood. In the United States, over half a million lives were lost in our Civil War that brought an end to slavery. In World War II, military deaths alone accounted for over 16 million lives from the Allies and over 8 million lives from the Axis. Does that pay for all the lives lost in the Holocaust? I don't know how much could ever atone for that, but I know that 24 million dead goes a long way. We don't bury our heads in the sand. By claiming so, you do a grave disservice to those who sacrificed themselves to end such evil. Often willingly.
> 
> Do we really believe that those victims, and those who gave their lives to end such evils, would have their descendents perpetually apologizing for the mistakes of the past, no matter how evil? If I do harm to another, would I expect my children and grandchildren to be condemned, in perpetuity, to apologize for my actions to the descendents of those I offended?
> 
> ...


In Serbia Half of male population was exterminated in WWI


----------



## Guest (Jan 3, 2013)

Flamme said:


> In Serbia Half of male population was exterminated in WWI


Yes, and the Turks also killed a large part of the Armenian population.

Sadly, nearly a whole generation was lost in that war. 5.5 million Entente soldiers and 4.4 million Central Powers soldiers killed. We should not forget these things. But our job is not to constantly pay the price for such past atrocities, rather to ensure that we don't repeat them.


----------



## Guest (Jan 3, 2013)

SiegendesLicht said:


> *DrMike*, I think you are the wisest man of all who have ever said anything in this thread. I just can't give you enough likes


Yeah, you are clogging up my notifications. I wouldn't call myself the wisest, or even wise. I'm just opinionated - and stubborn.


----------



## Flamme (Dec 30, 2012)

Same here...Im just too heretical to be any kind of fanatic...Right or left...I doubt too much...Deconstruct dogmas...But also try not to be a total blasphemer...


----------



## Flamme (Dec 30, 2012)

Also im not prone to any sort of demagogy where you criticise something and fail to offer a Better solution...Thats why i will never accept communism that is pure criticism phylosophy without real achievements, a snake in the velvet who waits the first chance to show the world it is much much worse than those idologies it condemns as ''unhuman'' ''greedy'' ''evil'' and such...


----------



## bigshot (Nov 22, 2011)

A country or culture is not racist unless it's institutionalized its racism. Austria isn't an anti Semitic country. It's a country with anti Semitic people in it. Prejudice is a part of being human, everywhere whether you're prejudiced against rappers, followers of Ayn Rand, hippies, Republicans, yuppies, stockbrokers and bankers, evangelical Christians, used car dealers, TV political commentators, or the Jehovah's Witnesses who knock on your door at 9am on a Sunday morning. The main difference between the Nazis and us is that they chose one group, passed laws against them and proceeded to enforce them in inhuman ways.

Instead of worrying about cultural bigotry, we should all privately focus on our own. It's a lot more uncomfortable than pointing fingers at the other guy, but it's much more effective at creating a better world. "Love thy neighbor as thyself."


----------



## Flamme (Dec 30, 2012)

I have some couple of friends who are anarchists in range from ''national anarchism'' to ''anarcho capitalism'' btw the only stream i can relate to some extent...All i hear from them is ''Kill the State'' ''State is the enemy!'' ''Nazi communist( differs if they are left or right anarhists lol) controlling capitalist state''...I aks and then what...''hen well make communities where ppl will live free of oppression terror in some kind of hipy heaven''...** i say...You would get First class Mayhem rape and pillage like i mad max but mabye even worse cause of all the guns available and the strongest and most wicked will rise like and enslave others...In other words they would kill a bull for a pound of meat...


----------



## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

DavidA said:


> Bunk! History reveals that whatever religion Hitler (and there is a good case for saying he was an atheist) had it was not Christian.


Burning Desire is right,Hitler supported the Deutsche Christen church which rejected the Hebrew origins of the bible.
I think we can do without the "bunk".


----------



## Flamme (Dec 30, 2012)

I think your opinion is a bit too extreme...Germans payed great price for their actions in both WWI and WWII...Countries GER and Aus are almost totally denazificated...I say that as a slav...


----------



## emiellucifuge (May 26, 2009)

Thread closed for the moment for repairs


----------

