# Mahler 3rd Review



## dsphipps100

In case anybody's interested, especially if you're currently in the market for a Mahler 3rd, here's a review I just posted on Amazon of Mahler's 3rd with Leonard Bernstein and the New York Philharmonic:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/customer-reviews/R1ZBQ0OSYUA48G/

(It's of their 1987 performance on Deutsche Grammophone, as opposed to their 1960s version which is currently on Sony.)










"Don't bother looking at the mountains, I have already composed them into my symphony." - _Gustav Mahler, speaking to Bruno Walter_


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## Becca

About 10 years ago, Tony Duggan wrote a very extensive 'synoptic' review of all the Mahler symphonies in which he went into great detail about them and many of the available recordings. While I do not pretend to subscribe to all his views, he does make clear his reasonings and as such, it gives a good basis to get a handle on the relative merits of each. Here is a link to the review for the 3rd symphony.

http://www.musicweb-international.com/Mahler/Mahler3.htm


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## hpowders

dsphipps100 said:


> In case anybody's interested, especially if you're currently in the market for a Mahler 3rd, here's a review I just posted on Amazon of Mahler's 3rd with Leonard Bernstein and the New York Philharmonic:
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/gp/customer-reviews/R1ZBQ0OSYUA48G/
> 
> (It's of their 1987 performance on Deutsche Grammophone, as opposed to their 1960s version which is currently on Sony.)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> "Don't bother looking at the mountains, I have already composed them into my symphony." - _Gustav Mahler, speaking to Bruno Walter_


After listening to many performances of the Mahler 3, it is this Bernstein/NY Philharmonic performance that is the best I have ever heard.


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## dsphipps100

Becca said:


> About 10 years ago, Tony Duggan wrote a very extensive 'synoptic' review of all the Mahler symphonies in which he went into great detail about them and many of the available recordings. While I do not pretend to subscribe to all his views, he does make clear his reasonings and as such, it gives a good basis to get a handle on the relative merits of each. Here is a link to the review for the 3rd symphony.
> 
> http://www.musicweb-international.com/Mahler/Mahler3.htm


I have been familiar with Tony Duggan's Mahler survey for a number of years, and find it extremely valuable, not only about the 3rd, but also about all of Mahler's symphonies, etc. (Although, like you, I do not pretend to subscribe to all his views - but that's OK, if everybody in this business all believed the same opinions, it would be a very boring world.) Hopefully others here will also find Duggan's Mahler survey equally valuable.

Thanks for posting that link.


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## dsphipps100

For some reason, Amazon will not allow me to edit my review and add a paragraph, so I'll post it here:

Just so you know what point of reference I'm coming from, I also have the Mahler 3rd recordings of Litton/Dallas, Haitink/Amsterdam, Chailly/Amsterdam, Jansons/Amsterdam, Abbado/Vienna, Maazel/Vienna, Boulez/Vienna, Inbal/Frankfurt, Sinopoli/Philharmonia, Levine/Chicago, Solti/Chicago, Tilson Thomas/San Francisco, Rattle/Birmingham, Ashkenazy/Sydney (for some odd reason), Kubelik/Bavarian Radio, and of course, Bernstein/New York's previous 1960's recording.


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## techniquest

It's interesting isn't it that after all these years, and all the more recent advances in recording and reproduction technology, that we are still turning to Bernstein for the very best of Mahler 3 recordings available out there. To be honest, I'm not sure whether I prefer this DG recording or his earlier one on CBS/Sony; both are superb. It's like Bernstein just got Mahler completely, examining and assessing every note and every marking in order to create as near perfect a whole that it's possible to do. 
However because it's music, it will also invariably also come down to personal preferences and there are many who simply don't get along with Bernstein, be it his tempi or his particular nuances, or the rather course, bright sound that DG recordings often bring. Personally, at the moment, I'm just enjoying this excuse to put the Bernstein / DG recording into the CD player


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## Reichstag aus LICHT

hpowders said:


> After listening to many performances of the Mahler 3, it is this Bernstein/NY Philharmonic performance that is the best I have ever heard.


If I had to choose just one recording of the 3rd, this would probably be the one I'd pick. The way Bernstein and his orchestra build the final movement is unsurpassed, and it's worth having this recording for that reason alone. The other movements are well up to the same standard, with wonderful contributions by Christa Ludwig and the boy choristers.


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## Haydn man

I have just one box set of Mahler LSO/Gergiev which I have used as my introduction to Mahler.
During the process of working through the set, I looked for recommendations for alternatives and accepted great performances. It fairly quickly became clear that with Mahler at least, there seemed to so many opinions, that in the end I realised that there just is no definitive performance for such large scale works.
I still plan to look for alternative versions of each symphony, and so am interested in the views on Mahler 3. It might be Bernstein next!


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## dieter

Wonderful music.I'd find it hard to separate Neumann from Inbal, Horenstein and Bertini.


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## Triplets

I don't know the later Bernstein. I am just starting to hear some of his last Mahler recordings, having missed them at the time. I do highly rate his NYP, but my introduction to the piece was Levine, which still thrills me, along with Horenstein and MTT.


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## Pugg

I must admit I like his first recording _even more_ , however, if I can choose only one, I will go with ; Solti / CSO


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## Triplets

I was able to listen to Bernstein 2nd recording today. albeit as background music while doing other things, on Spotify. Perhaps the OP could be more specific as to why they think that this is top recording?


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## dsphipps100

Triplets said:


> Perhaps the OP could be more specific as to why they think that this is top recording?


Did you read the Amazon review I linked in the OP? I'm not sure how I could be much more specific than I was in that review...


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## dsphipps100

Pugg said:


> I must admit I like his first recording _even more_ , however, if I can choose only one, I will go with ; Solti / CSO


How you ever noticed, on the Solti-Chicago, how the tympani are mysteriously about a half-second behind the whole orchestra during the finale's closing pages? Also, I've never been able to figure out how anybody could turn that 1st movement march into a sprint like Solti did. Fabulous playing by the CSO, of course (other than the aforementioned tympanist), but it still doesn't help the march. Solti/Chicago was also my first Mahler 3rd. That was when I was still discovering Mahler for the 1st time, but even then, I could tell that "something" wasn't right about it. Then later on, I got my hands on the Bernstein DGG recording and had my "a-ha" moment.


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## techniquest

> I've never been able to figure out how anybody could turn that 1st movement march into a sprint like Solti did.


If you want 'sprint', you should hear the Benjamin Zander recording (Telarc) where he makes the poor Philharmonia Orchestra race at breakneck speed in the final bars of the first movement


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## dsphipps100

techniquest said:


> If you want 'sprint', you should hear the Benjamin Zander recording (Telarc) where he makes the poor Philharmonia Orchestra race at breakneck speed in the final bars of the first movement


Thanks for the heads up, I'll pass.


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## Triplets

dsphipps100 said:


> Did you read the Amazon review I linked in the OP? I'm not sure how I could be much more specific than I was in that review...


No, I hadn't. I assumed the link would be to the recording itself. The reviewer you quote seems to base much of his/her opinion on the difference in sound quality between the 2 Bernstein versions. Since I only listened to the DG version on Spotify, I can't make any judgement there. I happen to think the SQ of the latest remastered New York version is pretty stellar


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## dsphipps100

Triplets said:


> No, I hadn't. I assumed the link would be to the recording itself. The reviewer you quote


The "reviewer" I quoted is me. I wrote that review. That's why I linked it in this thread, in case anybody here might be interested. In the OP, I even said, "...a review _I_ just posted..."


Triplets said:


> seems to base much of his/her opinion on the difference in sound quality between the 2 Bernstein versions.


Only regarding the choice between Bernstein's two versions of the Mahler 3rd. Regarding Bernstein's overall approach with the 3rd Sym, I had quite a bit else to say.


Triplets said:


> Since I only listened to the DG version on Spotify, I can't make any judgement there. I happen to think the SQ of the latest remastered New York version is pretty stellar


Then you would really enjoy the DGG Digital recording, which is never swamped by the louder passages like the 60s recording is.


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## Triplets

What version of the 60s recording are you listening to? I have 'Carnegie Hall' remastering and there is no distortion in louder passages.


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## dsphipps100

Triplets said:


> What version of the 60s recording are you listening to? I have 'Carnegie Hall' remastering and there is no distortion in louder passages.


The same "Carnegie Hall" remastering that you have. Here are my CDs:



















And it's not distortion that I'm hearing, it's a constriction of the sound, which is different. The sound becomes muddier and less clear, which is a result of original recording lack of bandwidth, which results in a loss of detail, not distortion. The fact is that the DGG DDD recording has more headroom for the more powerful passages. If you still prefer the 60s recording in spite of that, then that's OK, I have no problem with it. I will ask, however, that you show me the same respect regarding my preference for the DGG version.


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## dsphipps100

Here is the final two minutes of both recordings so you can hear for yourself:

View attachment 82261


View attachment 82260


Notice that in the DGG version, you can hear the inner voices more clearly, plus the stereo image is wider and more vivid.


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## Triplets

dsphipps100 said:


> Here is the final two minutes of both recordings so you can hear for yourself:
> 
> View attachment 82261
> 
> 
> View attachment 82260
> 
> 
> Notice that in the DGG version, you can hear the inner voices more clearly, plus the stereo image is wider and more vivid.


Um, those are MP3 excerpts, so I don't care to draw any lasting conclusions. I agree that the older recording lacks a bit of headroom at the peak climax on this excerpt compared to the one recorded 20 years down the road, but it isn't a deal breaker.
It may also depend upon the playback equipment. I use a FireWire DAC, which gives more detail and ambience than most DACs, but let's not get into trying to up one another on systems.
The reason I challenge this review is because I have been greatly disappointed by the the later Bernstein 9th and Seventh compared to their earlier predecessors, and that's all that I have heard from the later DG cycle. I happen to think the Sony 3rd is a very special recording, but perhaps I'll invest in the DG 3rd, although goodness knows I don't need another 3rd in my collection...


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## dsphipps100

Triplets said:


> The reason I challenge this review is because I have been greatly disappointed by the the later Bernstein 9th and Seventh compared to their earlier predecessors, and that's all that I have heard from the later DG cycle.


You might find it interesting to know that I agree with you that Bernstein's earlier recordings of the 7th and especially of the 9th are superior to the later DGG remakes. But that doesn't mean the whole DGG cycle is similarly inferior. The 5th and 6th Symphony recordings in the DGG cycle (both with the Vienna Philharmonic) are definitely better than the earlier NY Phil recordings.


Triplets said:


> I happen to think the Sony 3rd is a very special recording


Indeed it is, I have never intended to take anything away from it. No serious Mahler collector should be without it, just as no serious Mahler collector should be without the DGG 3rd either.


Triplets said:


> but perhaps I'll invest in the DG 3rd, although goodness knows I don't need another 3rd in my collection...


If you don't need another 3rd and you're perfectly happy with the earlier recording, then why not simply stick with that one? Since you've made me repeat nearly my entire OP in various posts replying to you, I'll also add that, in my OP, I stated "In case anybody's interested, especially if you're currently in the market for a Mahler 3rd..." You are apparently not in the market, so happy listening to the earlier recording and be done with it.


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## Triplets

Well, I didn't make you do anything, as you could have ignored my comments. And if you start a thread and have a strong opinion that you want to share with with others, it isn't unreasonable to be expected to be asked to further elaborate on that opinion, Unless all your seeking are unquestioning syncophants.
Anywho, it seems that in musical matters we tend to agree, and I have duly ordered a copy of the DG. How does the DG 5th compare to the earlier one? For me, that is the weakest link in the first set.


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## dsphipps100

Triplets said:


> I have duly ordered a copy of the DG.


Be sure to let me know what you think of it after you've heard it.









Triplets said:


> How does the DG 5th compare to the earlier one? For me, that is the weakest link in the first set.


The Bernstein-Vienna 5th is undoubtedly one of the most recommended versions on the market, and for good reason. It's one of the most "lights out" renditions you're likely to find. Bernstein and Vienna both seem to feed off of each other's intensity. It's a live performance recording, by the way, recorded at Frankfurt am Main, Alte Oper, in September, 1987, and the Wiener Philharmoniker was clearly at the top of their game. My only complaint about the album is that the sound is just a tad recessed, resulting in a slight loss of clarity in the busier passages. The 5th, as you are doubtless aware, is contrapuntally some of the densest, busiest writing that Mahler ever did, so it's important for a good recording of the 5th to have tremendous clarity. The Bernstein-Vienna recording is OK in this regard, but not spectacular. Most people will find it quite enjoyable, however, regardless. Here's an upload that I found on YouTube of the 1st movement:






My favorite 5th is the Tilson Thomas-San Francisco recording, which I discussed just yesterday, in fact, right here:

http://www.talkclassical.com/41595-mahlerian-wilderness-post1032550.html#post1032550


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## kanishknishar

Any reviews/opinions regarding Jansons' recent recording for RCO Live with RCO?


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## dsphipps100

Herrenvolk said:


> Any reviews/opinions regarding Jansons' recent recording for RCO Live with RCO?


Haven't heard it myself. Anybody else?


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## Triplets

dsphipps100 said:


> Haven't heard it myself. Anybody else?


I have it. It's fairly competitive but I am not a Jansons fan. Great playing, as one would expect. Jansons just always seems to leave me feeling like opportunities are being missed, as the greatt first movement somehow doesn't equal the sum of it's parts


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## Triplets

The MTT 5th is my preferred one as well. You should hear the Horenstein that Pristine just released


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## dsphipps100

Triplets said:


> I have it. It's fairly competitive but I am not a Jansons fan. Great playing, as one would expect. Jansons just always seems to leave me feeling like opportunities are being missed, as the greatt first movement somehow doesn't equal the sum of it's parts


I have Jansons' Tchaikovsky cycle with the Oslo Philharmonic as well as the Respighi Roman Trilogy with the same performers. They're all very polished, great-sounding performances, but they just don't have a whole lot of depth compared to other performances that are far more interpretively probing, so I didn't have a lot of interest in Jansons' Mahler. Your comment only confirms exactly what I would have expected, so thanks for sharing your viewpoint.


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## dsphipps100

Here is Jansons-Amsterdam doing Mahler's 2nd, for what it's worth:






It's a good performance, and if it was my first Mahler 2nd I'm sure I would be blown away just as I was by the Solti-Chicago recording, which was the first Mahler Symphony I ever heard (although since then I have come to greatly prefer the Kaplan-LSO recording).

But from what I'm hearing in this performance, I don't plan to throw down any cash for a Jansons-Amsterdam Mahler recording, especially considering that I already have the somewhat excellent complete Chailly-Amsterdam Mahler cycle, which features more than one truly outstanding performance. (The Chailly 8th is the finest I've ever heard, and their 9th is certainly in my top 2-3 performances of that piece, along with Karajan-Berlin (DDD) and Thomas-San Francisco.)


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## dieter

Generally I find Bernstein a very great conductor except in, of all composers, Mahler. The reason? I'll just quote Christoph Von Dohnanyi: 'There are some conductors who like to turn Mahler into 34th Street'
In other words, there is much more to Mahler than his Jewishness. 
Mahler's cosmos is all embracing. It's more than Lenny's mawkish wallowing. It's an all inclusive cosmos which Klemperer, Sanderling, Bertini, Gielen, Inbal, - all Jews - embrace wholeheartedly. That cosmos springs from Mahler's musical genes, I.E. Beethoven, Bach, Mozart, Haydn, the whole classical tradition. For the record, I have Bernstein's DG Mahler. It is not as good as Bertini's, it is not as good as Inbal's. BUT, if you want the Hysterical microcosm of the Yiddisher world, then by all means, just let Lenny wallow you away. Just to remind you, Lenny, the cow bells aren't Jewish, the Brass bands aren't Jewish, neither is the structure, the counterpoint or the whole symphonic tradition that spawned that very, very great composer Gustav Mahler.


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## damianjb1

dsphipps100 said:


> In case anybody's interested, especially if you're currently in the market for a Mahler 3rd, here's a review I just posted on Amazon of Mahler's 3rd with Leonard Bernstein and the New York Philharmonic:
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/gp/customer-reviews/R1ZBQ0OSYUA48G/
> 
> (It's of their 1987 performance on Deutsche Grammophone, as opposed to their 1960s version which is currently on Sony.)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> "Don't bother looking at the mountains, I have already composed them into my symphony." - _Gustav Mahler, speaking to Bruno Walter_


Thank you. That's my next Mahler purchase taken care of.


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## mmsbls

Several posts were removed that contained insults and ad-homs (or replies to those posts). Please refrain from attacking other members and focus on Mahler's music.


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## 13hm13

*Mehta (Decca/LA Phil, 1978)*

Haven't heard all the 3's ... but have heard many of the popular ones ... including LB/NYP '61 and Sinopoli. When adding to my playlist, I noticed that I had Mehta (Decca/LA Phil, 1978) there. So I compared the three -- all very good --- but seem to prefer the Mehta overall. I think the Decca sonics are one reason for my pref.







Not surprised ... the 1976 Mahler 5 -- also Mehta/Decca/LA Phil -- is my fave M5.


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## Azol

Everyone is entitled to their own opinions on Bernstein's Mahler but the M3 and M7 are two symphonies where Lenny is unbeatable. No matter which performances I listen to, I always return to Bernstein for the Third and the Seventh.


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## Becca

As you said, everyone is entitled to their own opinions, and mine is that he isn't unbeatable  In fact, there are no Bernstein recordings in my top 3 or 4 of each symphony! (and no HvK either)


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## Waehnen

Becca said:


> As you said, everyone is entitled to their own opinions, and mine is that he isn't unbeatable  In fact, there are no Bernstein recordings in my top 3 or 4 of each symphony! (and no HvK either)


I am with Azol here when it comes to the 3rd Symphony.


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## marlow

Of all the Mahler 3rds Bernstein in New York on Sony is the best I think. But of course there are many fine recordings


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## Knorf

There are numerous great Mahler Thirds as of early 2022, but I agree the DG Bernstein with the NYPO is one of the best, and the earlier one for Columbia isn't far behind. I don't think anyone is anywhere near bonkers for choosing either first. 

But for every great piece of music, it is not possible for any one single conductor or orchestra to have all of the answers, and Mahler's Third Symphony is no exception.

So I'm grateful to have other favorites as well, such as Boulez, Kubelík, Iván Fischer, and Abbado, to name just a few I personally find equally worthy as Bernstein (or very nearly so), with numerous others that are not far off at all. It's a crowded pack at the top. 

The only common recommendation that puzzles me is Horenstein. I just don't get it: it's outclassed in every way by so many alternatives, in my opinion. YMMV.


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## golfer72

Check put the Inbal cycle on Denon. Very good and fantastic sound.


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## OCEANE

Knorf said:


> There are numerous great Mahler Thirds as of early 2022, but I agree the DG Bernstein with the NYPO is one of the best, and the earlier one for Columbia isn't far behind. I don't think anyone is anywhere near bonkers for choosing either first.
> 
> But for every great piece of music, it is not possible for any one single conductor or orchestra to have all of the answers, and Mahler's Third Symphony is no exception.
> 
> So I'm grateful to have other favorites as well, such as Boulez, Kubelík, Iván Fischer, and Abbado, to name just a few I personally find equally worthy as Bernstein (or very nearly so), with numerous others that are not far off at all. It's a crowded pack at the top.
> 
> The only common recommendation that puzzles me is Horenstein. I just don't get it: it's outclassed in every way by so many alternatives, in my opinion. YMMV.











Totally agreed that there are many great performances of Mahler #3 but sometimes the recommendations could by subjective.

This Abbado with VPO was highly recommended by BBC Stephen Johnson in a radio programme in which he respectfully introduced (not compared) the versions of Bernstein, Rattle and Abbado with VPO., an interesting programme indeed.

I then listened to the whole piece of Abbado & VPO.....and twice for the Finale. 
I agree the positive comments that it is a great performance, well structured and smooth flow.. as well as Norman's input. etc.
However, the final part of the Finale really let me down as the music seems unable to reach the climax and the Timpani section is just too weak and blur to build up the baseline and to conclude the symphony in an authentic way.

I also listened to others' Finale such as Chailly who really gives a powerful ending which, I believe, is a must for No. 3.

No offensive to those who likes this Abbado version. Maybe it's merely due to the recording or my wrong perception. Correct me if I'm wrong.


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## Philidor

OCEANE said:


> View attachment 165689
> 
> 
> No offensive to those who likes this Abbado version. Maybe it's merely due to the recording or my wrong perception. Correct me if I'm wrong.


I like this recording especially for Jessye Norman's contribution, however, apart from these 9 or 10 minutes, I prefer Abbado's Berlin or Lucerne recording, not to mention Bernstein (DG or CBS), Gielen or Iván Fischer.


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## Heck148

OCEANE said:


> View attachment 165689


Does this album cite the trombone soloist _, or the post horn soloist [III]??_


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