# Is the myth about Das Lied von der Erde true?



## Arent (Mar 27, 2017)

The myth being, that Mahler avoided naming it as his ninth symphony out of neuroticism, and/or deference to Beethoven, calling it a song cycle.

But is it not actually more song cycle than symphony?

Is there any documentary evidence of Mahler's thoughts on the matter?


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

Arent said:


> The myth being, that Mahler avoided naming it as his ninth symphony out of neuroticism, and/or deference to Beethoven, *calling it a song cycle*.
> 
> But is it not actually more song cycle than symphony?


He actually called it a symphony, but did not number it. IMO it really is a symphony and not a song cycle - especially in the 6th movement, there is far too much time for the orchestra alone for a song cycle.


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## Ulfilas (Mar 5, 2020)

I've always considered it a symphony, also Das Klagende Lied (which is seriously underrated in my opinion!)

So I count 11.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Does it matter? It stands as it is - a song cycle.


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## Ulfilas (Mar 5, 2020)

I guess it's a moot point. It has a scale and unity of intent that to me is symphonic. In the same way as say, Shostakovich 14.


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## CnC Bartok (Jun 5, 2017)

Arent said:


> The myth being, that Mahler avoided naming it as his ninth symphony out of neuroticism, and/or deference to Beethoven, calling it a song cycle.
> 
> But is it not actually more song cycle than symphony?
> 
> Is there any documentary evidence of Mahler's thoughts on the matter?


I suspect your best source of documentary evidence will be Alma Mahler's memoirs. Unfortunately, she was remarkably good at painting Gustav as neurotic, particularly in situations where it made her look less of an utter cow. There may be a letter where Mahler indulges the "curse of the Ninth" myth, but I am not sure....

Also, Schoenberg, himself a strangely superstitious chap (note that Moses und Aron is 12 letters, not 13!!!) propagated the myth - Schoenberg wrote: "It seems that the Ninth is a limit. He who wants to go beyond it must pass away. It seems as if something might be imparted to us in the Tenth which we ought not yet to know, for which we are not ready. Those who have written a Ninth stood too close to the hereafter."


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

You can't have it both ways ... If it's a myth ("a widely held but false belief or idea") then it's not true. If it's true then it's not a myth.


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

Very mythteriouth! xxxxxxxxxxx


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## RICK RIEKERT (Oct 9, 2017)

In her memoirs, Alma Mahler explains that her husband affixed the label "symphony" to Das Lied von der Erde as a subtitle because ". . . in his dread, he wished to dodge a Ninth Symphony, as neither Beethoven nor Bruckner had reached a Tenth. At first he wrote _Das Lied von der Erde_ as the Ninth, but crossed the number out. When he was later writing his next symphony, which he called the Ninth, he said to me: 'Of course, it's actually the Tenth, because Das Lied von der Erde was really the Ninth.' Finally, when he was composing the Tenth, he said, 'Now the danger is past'. . . ."


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

What’s a symphony?


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

DavidA said:


> Does it matter? It stands as it is - a song cycle.


Or it stands as a symphony, or both. It's not a big deal; the music's the same whatever you call it. Personally, I'll go with both.


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

Mandryka said:


> What's a symphony?


Feel free to do a little research. I'm busy today. :lol:


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## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

It's not a myth - Mahler was superstitious about no. 9. Alma wrote that Mahler couldn't bring himself to use the title symphony "fearing the fate of Beethoven and Bruckner, who had met their deaths after their Ninths." William Ritter who became a close friend of Mahler's wrote "The IXth symphony was now completed in broad outline. It included an ancient Chinese text...This was the work today known as Das Lied von der Erde. Mahler hated that No. IX in a respectful rather than apprehensive, superstitious frame of mind. He would dissimulate his symphony in progress with the title, whereas the next one [what we know now as IX], already sketched, would all of a sudden bear the title of No. X. It would be as if the feared No. IX had been evaded." As Alma wrote, "he thought he had outwitted our Lord."

Symphony or Song Cycle? By Mahler standards it's a symphony. Or use what Henry-Louis de La Grange does: Song-Symphony.


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

mbhaub said:


> It's not a myth - Mahler was superstitious about no. 9. Alma wrote that Mahler couldn't bring himself to use the title symphony...


Except that he did. In his own handwriting:


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## Arent (Mar 27, 2017)

Mandryka said:


> What's a symphony?


Not going there 
The essence of my query was, if not for the "superstition of the Ninth", would Mahler have cheerfully labeled it as his Ninth?

The point is moot, but I have learned in this thread that he did in fact label it as a symphony. That certainly differentiates it from his orchestral song cycles proper.


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