# Olivier Messiaen



## msegers

We are less than a month from Olivier Messiaen's 100th birthday. His music is, for me, a recent discovery, which has become almost an addiction by now. I hope responses to this guestbook will give me more to think about regarding his music.


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## Lang

Well, it depends what you are looking for. If it is works to try, then the Turangalila Symphony is an obvious choice, as is the wonderful Trois Petites Liturgies. A slightly later work which has to me a perfect harmony in its form, is Chronochromie.


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## msegers

Thanks, *Lang*, for the response. Coincidentally, I just listened to _Turangalila Symphony_ again this morning. What a wonderful thing it is!
What I was looking for in posting this was to learn how people feel about Messiaen's music, their responses to his music in general, as well as to specific works. 
His music seems to have strong responses (positive or negative), and I am hoping for some dialogue to enrich my experience of his music, feeling that I can learn as much from the negative responses as from the positives.
For instance, I will start with your reference to "the wonderful _Trois Petites Liturgies_" when I listen to them (something I haven't heard yet). Thanks.
My favorite of his works - that I have heard so far - is _Éclairs sur L'au Delà_. In fact, of all his birds, my favorite is the third movement, _L'Oiseau-lyre et la Ville-fiancée_.


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## Elaryad

Try to listen to Quatuor pour la fin du temps, probably you should know it by now. It looks like angels screaming... very deep and intense music.


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## msegers

Of course, *Elaryad*, I have listened to the _Quatuor_, my first Messiaen piece... probably the most powerful music I had ever heard. Each movement took me deeper into the work.

But, believe me, I'll always associate your remark, "It looks like angels screaming..." with it everytime I hear it.

By the way, trying to get a friend of mine interested in Messiaen's music, I came up with all eight movements of the _Quatuor_ on YouTube - a rather motley assortment of Messiaenists - but in case anyone would be interested -

1
First part of Messiaen's "Quartet for the End of Time". Recorded 30 November 1991. This is a short excerpt from the DVD http://tinyurl.com/oybus 





2
ensemble s21
Jorge Montes, violín
Carlos García Amigo, violonchelo
Vicente López Puig, clarinete
Julio Mourenza, piano

01/IV/2008 | Santiago de Compostela
Auditorio do cGac
www.ensemble-s21.com 





3
Todd Brunel performs the third movement of Olivier Messiaen's Quatuor pour la fin du temps ("Quartet for the end of time"). The third movement is for solo clarinet and is called: III. "Abîme des oiseaux" (Abyss of birds), @ Outpost 186 Hampshire, Cambridge, MA, Nov 16, 2007.






4
Synesthetic sand-fantasy for the music of Messiaen 
Nash Ensemble





5
www.chatterchamber.org 





6
Messiaen - Quatuor pour la Fin du Temps (mov. 6)

Davide de Ascaniis - violino
Damiano Scarpa - violoncello
Francesco Spendolini - clarinetto
Daniele Rinaldo - pianoforte
(live @ Festival Dino Ciani, 2008) 





7
From my chamber music diploma concert at the Malmö Academy of Music 





8
Kyung-Wha Chung plays the 8th Mov. of Messiaen quartet for the End of Time (for piano, violin, cello and clarinet). Recorded live in New York in 1984.


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## Lang

msegers said:


> What I was looking for in posting this was to learn how people feel about Messiaen's music, their responses to his music in general, as well as to specific works.
> His music seems to have strong responses (positive or negative), and I am hoping for some dialogue to enrich my experience of his music, feeling that I can learn as much from the negative responses as from the positives.


Ok - what do I get from Messiaen's music? First and foremost a sense of perfect form. Messiaen tends to use monolithic shapes for his structures, if that makes sense, and the structure to me is very apparent in the music itself. For me that is exemplified in Chronochromie, where the structure is one of the main elements of the music. Secondly the sensuality. No one, apart from Strauss, has written music with such an erotic undercurrent. And thirdly, the mysticism. I am an atheist, and so the Catholic mysticism with which his work is imbued means very little to me in general, but Messiaen manages to communicate his sense of the eternal mysteries and also his wonder at the natural world, which are things that I can understand and appreciate.


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## msegers

Happy 100th Birthday, Olivier Messiaen!

http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/1288530/olivier_messiaen_happy_100th_birthday.html?cat=33

By the way, deep bows to Lang for his comments. I especially appreciate his comments on the sensuality of Messiaen. (Some commentators leave me feeling that I must have a dirty mind to think such a thing.)

Also, I believe that not being Catholic gives me a freedom in approaching Messiaen's work. There is so much of his mysticism that is not specifically Catholic, the "sense of the eternal mysteries and also his wonder at the natural world" (quoting Lang), that we can all partake of his little-c catholic, universal, spirituality.


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## Lang

msegers said:


> Happy 100th Birthday, Olivier Messiaen!
> 
> http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/1288530/olivier_messiaen_happy_100th_birthday.html?cat=33
> 
> By the way, deep bows to Lang for his comments. I especially appreciate his comments on the sensuality of Messiaen. (Some commentators leave me feeling that I must have a dirty mind to think such a thing.)


Oh no, not at all. If you can ever hear a live performance of the Cinq Rechants, you will hear an orgasm portrayed in music. Unfortunately the recorded versions of this tend to be a little inhibited, but I did hear a live performance by the John Aldiss Choir where everybody in the audience felt like a cigarette following the solo soprano's climax. 

Is it today? Happy birthday, Olivier. Hope you are among the birds.


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## msegers

Lang said:


> If you can ever hear a live performance of the Cinq Rechants, you will hear an orgasm portrayed in music. Unfortunately the recorded versions of this tend to be a little inhibited, but I did hear a live performance by the John Aldiss Choir where everybody in the audience felt like a cigarette following the solo soprano's climax.


I don't usually quote a previous post - feel that it just takes up room in the forum. But Lang's comment deserves repetition. I feel sure that Messiaen must be joining me in laughter.


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## Sid James

I haven't been exposed to his works other than _*Quartet for the End of Time*_, but I like that work alot. It is in my top ten. Definitely one of the great chamber works of the C20th. As people may already know, it also had an interesting history, most of it being composed while Messiaen was a prisoner of war. I like this music because he had a unique style that could not be replicated. It is not only profoundly spiritual but also very dramatic and trance-inducing in parts. He pushes the instruments to the extreme, especially the violin and the cello. I'd definitely recommend it to anyone who wants to go beyond the chamber works of Mozart, Beethoven, Brahms, etc.


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## Lisztfreak

I'd best copy Andre's previous post... Exactly what I was planning to say.


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## nickgray

I heard his QftEoT and Turangalila symphony. Well, heard probably isn't the right word since I listened them for... uh... 5-6 minutes, it sounded to me more like nails scratching on the window sound, making me very uncomfortable almost physically. Bad music, I wouldn't even call it music, more like "sound experiment involving music theory" or something.


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## EarlyCuyler

I really get into Et exspecto resurrectionem mortuorum. Lots of fun to listen to, and to play! Turangalila is a blast too, literally.


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## Herzeleide

I absolutely adore Chronochromie. The Epode is stunning.


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## Herzeleide

This is an amazing video! :


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## andruini

i'm afraid my experience with Messiaen is limited to the obvious Quartour (which i adore in every level) and the Turangalila.. 
the one thing with Messiaen for me, as i do with other "similar" (at least in my mind) composers, like perhaps Ligeti and Gorecki, is that i definitely need to have the right mindset to sit down and listen to his works.. i tell you, listening to the Quartour, as incredible as it is, can be REALLY emotionally draining, if you're really paying attention.. but i'd jump at the chance to get to know his work better..


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## JTech82

I can't say that I've really heard much of Messiaen. I know I said I didn't like him a month or so ago, but in all honesty I don't really know what to listen to. I mean his works seem really abstract to me. There's really nothing for me to sink my teeth into.

Any suggestions anyone?


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## Bach

For you, Turangalila Symphony. For anyone else, Quartet for the end of time.


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## JTech82

Bach said:


> For you, Turangalila Symphony. For anyone else, Quartet for the end of time.


Ah thanks Bach I shall seek this piece out.


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## msegers

Being new to Messiaen, *JTech82*, you might want to listen to the podcast ("Podcast 132 - Olivier Messiaen") of excerpts from his works, available here: http://www.bleep43.com/podcast/2009/4/14/podcast-132-olivier-messiaen.html. These are not complete works, but they do give you a taste of Messiaen's work from _Le banquet céleste_ (1928) to _Éclairs sur l'Au-Delà…_ (1988-92).

From the website of the Luna Nova New Music Ensemble (http://www.lunanova.org), you can listen to or download their performance of the _Quatuor pour la fin du temps_ (http://www.lunanova.org/podcasts/quatuor.mp3). You might want to prepare by reading the Wikipedia article on the Quartet, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quatuor_pour_la_fin_du_temps.

In fact, Wikipedia provides a good introduction to Messiaen, beginning with the article on him (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messiaen) as well as articles on specific works, for instance the _Turangalîla-Symphonie_ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turangal%C3%AEla-Symphonie). For the Symphony, there are also a great many resources at http://www.philharmonia.co.uk/messiaen/music/turangalila.html.

As I look back over previous entries in this thread, I find that some of the contributors have given me some insights into Messiaen's music that have sent me back to the works with something new to listen for and to think about, so they might enrich your first listenings as much as they have enriched my repeated listenings. (This is the only Internet forum on any topic that I've stuck with more than a few months, because it is the only forum from which I can so consistently find such insights.) Also, we've accumulated quite a few links to videos that you might be useful by way of introduction to Messiaen's music.


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## Lang

JTech82 said:


> I can't say that I've really heard much of Messiaen. I know I said I didn't like him a month or so ago, but in all honesty I don't really know what to listen to. I mean his works seem really abstract to me. There's really nothing for me to sink my teeth into.
> 
> Any suggestions anyone?


You actually said you despise him.

If you want to hear something very beautiful, influenced by Debussy, with a wonderful use of women's voices and the ondes Martenot, I would recommend the final movement of the Trois Petites Liturgies.


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## JTech82

Lang said:


> You actually said you despise him.
> 
> If you want to hear something very beautiful, influenced by Debussy, with a wonderful use of women's voices and the ondes Martenot, I would recommend the final movement of the Trois Petites Liturgies.


Yeah I know I did Lang, but I'm trying to be more open here.


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## Lang

Ok, well done. No one could criticise you for that.


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## msegers

Thursday is the Feastday of the Ascension, forty days after Easter. Here are YouTube links for Messian's "L'Ascension" ("The Ascension"), composed in 1932-33. Messiaen described it as "4 Meditations for orchestra".

*Orchestral version -*
1. Majesté du Christ demandant sa gloire à son Père ("The majesty of Christ demanding its glory of the Father") 
2. Alleluias sereins d'une âme qui désire le ciel ("Serene alleluias of a soul that longs for heaven") 
3. Alleluia sur la trompette, alleluia sur la cymbale ("Alleluia on the trumpet, alleluia on the cymbal") 
4. Prière du Christ montant vers son Père ("Prayer of Christ ascending towards his Father")

*Organ version -*
In 1933-34, Messiaen made a version for solo organ. The first, second and fourth movements are arrangements of the orchestral pieces, but Messiaen composed a new third movement, "Transports de joie d'une âme devant la gloire du Christ qui est la sienne" ("Ecstasies of a soul before the glory of Christ, which is its own glory"), usually just known as "Transports de joie."

*Organ*





L'Ascension (1)





L'Ascension (2)





L'Ascension (3)





L'Ascension (4)

*Orchestra*





L'Ascension (1)





L'Ascension (2)





L'Ascension (3)





L'Ascension (4)

See http://twitter.com/MessiaenProject


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## msegers

Two new videos online -

http://www.ktotv.com/cms/videos/fiche_video.html?idV=00041254&vl=video_par_emission

DOCUMENTAIRE: LE CHARME DES IMPOSSIBILITÉS
78 mn 
Le "Quatuor pour la fin du temps" est une oeuvre musicale en huit mouvements écrite par Olivier Messiaen alors qu'il était en détention au camp de Görlitzt durant la 2ème guerre mondiale.

http://www.veoh.com/browse/videos/category/music/watch/v18597352CdyjKfdY#

French composer/organist Olivier Messiaen (1909-1992)improvises at the organ of the Paris Church of the Sainte-Trinité, where he was organist for more than six decades. This video is taken from a DVD that is out-of-print. (There have been excerpts from this on YouTube for a while.) 27 min.


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## bdelykleon

Messiaen is one of my favorite composers, I never quite undestood why some people find him difficult, I loved pretty much everything I heard of him without any difficulty. I never found his music atonal, because it suggests more than avoids a tonal environment, never doing any explicitely tonal but keeping with some classical chords and usually avoiding any other system. I think I've heard all he did, and I don't know anything bad he composed.


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## Mirror Image

bdelykleon said:


> Messiaen is one of my favorite composers, I never quite undestood why some people find him difficult, I loved pretty much everything I heard of him without any difficulty.


Perhaps your ears are more attuned to his music?

Anyway, his work is interesting, but not compelling in my opinion, but I'm still going to give his music a chance.


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## bdelykleon

Mirror Image said:


> Perhaps your ears are more attuned to his music?
> 
> Anyway, his work is interesting, but not compelling in my opinion, but I'm still going to give his music a chance.


I don't know, I started to like Messiaen well before liking Webern or Schönberg. If they were attuned it was something natural.


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## JoeGreen

Messiean is one of the more lyrical 20th century composers.


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## bdelykleon

JoeGreen said:


> Messiean is one of the more lyrical 20th century composers.


Exactly, and I just listened to "poèmes pour mi" which is one of the most beautiful, lyrical and, why not?, tuneful song cycles ever.


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## Sid James

He definitely trod his own path, being influenced by things that were quite out-there, like birdsong. I'd compare that aspect of his music to Janacek's who was interested in the inflections of the voice during conversation. I think there is definitely a timelessness & deep spirituality to be found in Messiaen's music, I found it immediately appealing, although it is by no means easy listening...


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## Mirror Image

Andre said:


> He definitely trod his own path, being influenced by things that were quite out-there, like birdsong. I'd compare that aspect of his music to Janacek's who was interested in the inflections of the voice during conversation. I think there is definitely a timelessness & deep spirituality to be found in Messiaen's music, I found it immediately appealing, although it is by no means easy listening...


Now, Janacek there's a composer I enjoy.


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## JoeGreen

anyone know a good recording of _St. Francis of Asissi_?


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## bdelykleon

I have Nagano's recording on CD, don't know another to make a comparison, but I am ordering this one:









Olivier Messiaen
SAINT FRANçOIS D'ASSISE

The Angel - Camilla Tilling
Saint François - Rod Gilfry
The Leper - Hubert Delamboye
Frère Léon - Henk Neven
Frère Massée - Tom Randle
Frère Élie - Donald Kaasch
Frère Bernard - Armand Arapian
Frère Sylvestre - Jan Willem Baljet
Frère Rufin - André Morsch

Chorus of De Nederlandse Opera
Hague Philharmonic Orchestra
Ingo Metzmacher, conductor

Pierre Audi, stage director

Recorded live at Het Musiektheater, Amsterdam, on 30 May, 11 and 16 June 2008.


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## JoeGreen

Ah, well I'll have to check that one out.


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## bdelykleon

From the recording I have of Nagano I must say it starts slow but steadily grows to something larger than life, stunningly beautiful. I am still to know any bad piece by Messiaen...


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## Rasa

I sang on of his motets. Even though I have a distinct dislike for his Quattuor or Organ works, singing the motet was enchanting.


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## kg4fxg

*Herzeleide - A Big Thank You*

Herzeleide - Thanks for the link to You Tube that was wonderful!

I recently bought a few Messiaen CD's. I never really studied him but did fall in love with the music. Oh, I have so much to learn, so much that I has missed. There is something good here.

Thème Et Variations Pour Violon Et Piano: Thème. Modéré
Turangalila Symphony

Maybe you could recommend some pieces for a Messiaen beginner?

Thanks


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## bdelykleon

kg4fxg said:


> Maybe you could recommend some pieces for a Messiaen beginner?


I may not have Herzeleide's knowledge, but I do love Messiaen. Some good CD's to start out a messiaen collection:


































And if you like it all, you may consider buying this:


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## JoeGreen

bdelykleon said:


> I am still to know any bad piece by Messiaen...


I'll second that, and I'm really looking forward to the Bird Sermon, is it really really good?


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## kg4fxg

*Thanks All*

Thanks

bdelykleon
Andre
Mirror Image

I will check out some other recordings of Messiaen. I heard about his 100 birthday or the 2008 Messiaen year and I am rather embassased that I don't have nor know a whole lot about him.

That to me is why I like this forum. Yes, many may have opinions but I look at it as an opportunity to try new composers, pieces I never heard before that will broaden my knowedge base.


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## Sid James

kg4fxg said:


> That to me is why I like this forum. Yes, many may have opinions but I look at it as an opportunity to try new composers, pieces I never heard before that will broaden my knowedge base.


That's exactly why I keep coming back to this forum. To not only share my opinions/impressions but to gain more knowledge & explore many things that I wouldn't hear about otherwise...


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## msegers

To get into Messiaen's music, I'd suggest this podcast, a two hour introduction to Messiaen's music, from " Le banquet céleste" (1928) to the posthumously premiered "Éclairs..." - really good introduction to the range of Messiaen's music - http://www.bleep43.com/podcast/2009/4/14/podcast-132-olivier-messiaen.html

Here are some great but not so well-known pieces that you can listen to on YouTube (of course, there are many well-known pieces there):

Olivier Messiaen: "La Mort du nombre" (1930) - the only time Messiaen wrote for a male voice except for the opera "St. Francis"- 




Olivier Messiaen: "Vocalise étude" (1935, the version for voice & piano; there is another version for violin & piano) - this was reworked for the second movement of "Concert á Quatre."





Messiaen, Oliver - "Oraison" (1937) ("Fête des Belles Eaux," VI) for ondes Martenot ensemble- Messiaen re-worked this for the 5th movement of "Quartet for the End of Time."





Last year, a CD of young Canadian artists came out that has become quite a favorite of mine, "Messiaen: Chants de Terre et de Ciel." It includes works written during the happy years of his first marriage to violinist Claire Delbos before her physical and mental health collapsed.
The CD opens with "Trois mélodies" (1930), two songs with words by Messiaen and one with words by his mother.

Then come "La Mort du Nombre" (1930), which you can hear in a video listed above and "Vocalise" (1935) in the violin and piano version, followed by "Chants de terre et de ciel" (1938), probably the best-known pieces on this disc. Finishing up is the "Thème et variations" (1932) for piano and violin, which Messiaen wrote as a wedding present for his wife.

Herzeleide's video link is to an excerpt from "Olivier Messiaen - The Crystal Liturgy" (2007) which is available on DVD and is a warm, joyful presentation of Messiaen. There are several sequences there about birds, as well as some scenes of Messiaen with his students (one of whom says that he never tried to turn his students into "little Messiaens").

From the Philharmonia Orchestra's Messiaen website, there is a 6 minute documentary on Messiaen and birds -


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## kg4fxg

Msegers

Thanks for the podcast and links. I will check them all out. I want to hear it all.

Thanks


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## Sid James

I just heard Messiaen's *Turangalila symphonie* for the first time & I think it's great! I really think that he gives the numbered symphonists of the C20th a run for their money with this complex, mysterious, moving work. & what a contrast to his other famous work, the_ Quartet for the end of time_! He seemed to be truly a very unique & versatile composer...


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## bdelykleon

Andre said:


> I just heard Messiaen's *Turangalila symphonie* for the first time & I think it's great! I really think that he gives the numbered symphonists of the C20th a run for their money with this complex, mysterious, moving work. & what a contrast to his other famous work, the_ Quartet for the end of time_! He seemed to be truly a very unique & versatile composer...


I just imagine how happy you should be. I was pretty excited when I first heard it as well. Luckily I even managed to see it live twice and I still think it one of the best symphonies of the C20th.

The Turangalîla is hugue, is passionate, exciting, but also with some parts of passion, of savagery, it is indeed a long and complex work. One of the greatest of all time.

You should now get a go on_ La Transfiguration de Nôtre Seigneur Jésu-Christ
_, it follows pretty closely Turangalila's Style, but adds some even larger and impressive climaxes.

I entered about a month ago a Messiaen fase and I have benn listening one of his works every day, it has been amazing.


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## Sid James

Thanks very much for your further recommendations, bdelykleon. I will explore those works down the track, but let me absorb this amazing work a bit first. I've only listened to the cd once, so I'll be coming back to it often. I find it just as demanding & rewarding as, say, Shostakovich's 4th, for example. The piano & odnes martenot also add sounds that you wouldn't usually hear in a symphony. He seemed to redefine what is a 'symphony' with this work. I won't listen to Shostakovich, Prokofiev, Mahler, Sibelius, etc. with the same ears again. What Messiaen did was so radical & different, it equals them all...

& it must have been awesome seeing it live. I remember J-Y Thibaudet came here to Sydney & performed it live about 5-10 years ago, but I missed out. Maybe I was daunted. Coincidentally, the recording I now have is also live, done by the Melbourne SO with Hiroyuki Iwaki conducting. I was glad to get an Australian performance.


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## msegers

Here are some documentaries from YouTube that might enhance your experience with the Turangalîla-Symphonie.

Premiere of the Turangalîla-Symphonie:





Esa-Pekka Salonen on the Turangalîla-Symphonie:





Percussion in the Turangalîla-Symphonie - 1:





Percussion - 2:





Ondes Martenot: 





I have learned that there was an animated series by Matt Groening called Futurama, in which there was a character named Turanga Leela: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turanga_Leela


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## msegers

Last year, Southbank Centre's centenary celebration of Olivier Messiaen included three online videos of what they said would be a series of four. I emailed them about the fourth and was told that it is the Harrison Birtwistle video, which is not in the same format as the other three.

Anyway, here are three little mini-documentaries that will give you a good sense of Messiaen's standing today. Bravo, Soutbank Centre:

Messiaen - a life in colour 





Messiaen - a life in colour" part 2





Messiaen - a life in colour: part 3





Harrison Birtwistle in conversation


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## msegers

_Michael Jackson / Messiaen connection?_

Quincy Jones was born in 1933 and is still going strong, a trumpeter, arranger, producer, and all-around master who began his career playing and arranging for superb artists: Lionel Hampton, Sarah Vaughan, Count Basie, Duke Ellington, Gene Krupa, Ray Charles, Dizzy Gillespie.

Fighting The New Wave

Not only that, but *he studied composition with Nadia Boulanger and Olivier Messiaen *in Paris. Few people on this earth know African-American music as well as Jones, and he wove that knowledge into every track of Thriller.

http://www.rferl.org/content/The_Legacy_Of_Michael_Jackson/1763995.html


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## Clancy

I've recently been exposed to this man's music by listening to Oiseaux Exotiques on youtube a lot, I must admit I fell in love with this piece almost immediately, it's quite something - the end in particular is heartstopping, the way it interrupts mid-flow with those repeated chords(?) and ends just like that, no warning.

I've had a quick listen to some of the Turangalîla symphonie but have yet to really explore it, ditto for the Quartet for the End of Time. It is high time I purchased a recording or two of his works, methinks


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## msegers

Comlete video of Messiaen - _Turangalîla-Symphonie_ - Le Verbier Festival Orchestra interprète Messiaen: 
http://liveweb.arte.tv/fr/video/Le_Verbier_Festival_Orchestra_interprete_Messiaen


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## msegers

In US - tonight PBS will telecast the New York Philharmonic Orchestra, including Messiaen's " Poèmes pour Mi," with Renée Fleming. As usual, Messiaen wrote his own text. You can download French text with English translation at http://www.mediafire.com/?nhnmatmzzij.


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## Sid James

I've been listening to a Naxos Messiaen disc, which was put out recently, since getting it yesterday. The highlight of the disc is his _*Poemes pour Mi*_ for soprano & orchestra, which go through the full gamut of emotion, there are constant changes in mood with each song, some lyrical, some dramatic, and some really dark. I hear similarities in how Messiaen pushes the voice (sometimes to it's limits), employs a type of speech-song, and has this lucid, transluscent orchestration with what Schoenberg or Berg did in their operas. Messiaen's songs also seem to be a continuation of a long line of song cycles from Berlioz through to Duparc, Debussy, Ravel, Canteloube. Messiaen wrote these songs in the 1930's for his wife, whom he nicknamed "Mi." But they sound so modern, that they could have been produced in the 1960's.

There's also two other fine works on the disc, the tone poem (& Messiaen's first published orchestral work) _*Les offrandes oubliees*_, also from the '30's, which has a violent outburst framed by calmer, lyrical sections; and a tribute to Mozart called _*Un sourire*_, written in the early '90's, to mark the 200th anniversary of that composer's death. Messiaen called it a musical smile. The only dissapointment is the length of the CD, which is only 53 minutes. This music is so enjoyable, that the time goes very quickly. One virtually never wants it to stop.


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## msegers

Andre - Glad you are enjoying the _Poèmes pour Mi_.

In my earlier post, I mentioned that Renée Fleming would perform _Poèmes pour Mi_ on television here in the US. Her performance is availabe on YouTube: http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=D9C6A7923E1332FD&search_query=renee+fleming+messiaen
There are only seven videos, but the last one includes #7-9.

Oh, the link to the complete video of Messiaen's _Turangalîla-Symphonie_ is dead.

I'm still maintaining a sort of blog of listening to Messiaen's works in chronological order at http://twitter.com/MessiaenProject on Twitter. (You do not have to join Twitter to access it.) Every week, I move to the next work and provide audio, video, and info links about it. This week, I'm up to _Méditations sur le mystère de la Sainte Trinité_.


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## Aramis

I've heard that he used to "transcribe" birds singing for instruments. Anyone heard this? How are these works called?


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## mueske

Aramis said:


> I've heard that he used to "transcribe" birds singing for instruments. Anyone heard this? How are these works called?


Try "Oiseaux Exotiques"


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## Oskaar

*Oliver Messiaen*

I can not find a Messiaen thread in the guestbook, so I start one.

I find him as one of the most exiting modern componists. I will post my listening to him here, as well as in "currently listening"


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## starthrower

I came up with no less than 8 threads for my Messiaen search. But regardless, give us your impressions, Oskaar.


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## Oskaar

starthrower said:


> I came up with no less than 8 threads for my Messiaen search. But regardless, give us your impressions, Oskaar.


Ok...but they are dead... I try to pick up when there is... But under the guestbook umbrella, I did not find.


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## Oskaar

*Olivier Messiaen*

*Work 
Messiaen : Theme and Variations for Violin and Piano, I/10*

Artists	
Gidon Kremer
Martha Argerlich




http://www.amazon.com/Bartok-Janace...E4DO/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1325176725&sr=8-2

Loveley and Lyrical interplay between piano and violin. Wonderful little work.
Very good sound, perhaps a thought harsch piano










Work 
*Messiaen : Quatuor pour la fin du temps*

Artists	
Le Dizes (Artist), Damiens (Artist), Aimard (Artist), Strauch




http://www.amazon.com/Messiaen-Quat...7FIN/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1317307358&sr=8-3

A really great work!
Performances are very good. Magic nerve. But the sound is only average.


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## Crudblud

The Turangalîla-Symphonie is my favourite orchestral work, St. François d'Assise is my favourite opera, much of his organ music is absolutely thrilling, and many of the chamber and solo piano works rank highly for me.

One of my all time favourites, to be sure.


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## Oskaar

*Olivier Messiaen*

Work 
*Messiaen : Turangalîla-symphonie, for piano, ondes martenot and orchestra, I/29*

Artists	
Yvonne Loriod (Artist), Jeanne Loriod
R.T.F. National Orchestra
http://www.amazon.com/Messiaen-Tura...VTK3/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1317312081&sr=8-1

Very exciting work! An abundance of moods, shades and variations.
Excellent performance, but the sound seems a bit closed.


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## matsoljare

Here's some multi-Ondes Martenot insanity:


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## Crudblud

From La Fête des belles eaux. Good but sadly neglected piece.


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## Oskaar

*Olivier Messiaen*

Work 
*Messiaen : Des Canyons aux étoiles, for piano and orchestra, I/51*

Artists	
Yvonne Lorid




http://www.amazon.com/Messiaen-Box-...ACWO/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1317309887&sr=8-1










By the way, this Messiaen edition is a goldmine!


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## Oskaar

*Olivier Messiaen*

Work 
*Messiaen : Le merle noir, for flute and piano, I/37*

Artists	
Gunilla von Bahr, Dag Achatz




http://www.amazon.com/Poulenc-Sonat...IGWY/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1317303464&sr=8-1

Wonderful flute play! Nice sound.










Work 
*Messiaen : Theme and Variations for Violin and Piano, I/10*

Artists	
Luben Yordanoff, Albert Tetard, Daniel Barenboim, Claude Desurmont, Gidon Kremer, et al.




http://www.amazon.co.uk/Messiaen-Qu...=sr_1_9?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1317305670&sr=1-9

Fine!










Work 
*Messiaen : Quatuor pour la fin du temps*

Artists	
Myung-Whun Chung




http://www.amazon.com/Olivier-Messi...TL2R/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1317307255&sr=8-3

Brilliant vesjon of this captivating work.


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## Itullian

He's one of my favorites. have all the DG recordings and all of his piano stuff in several versions.

i get a very spiritual sense from all his works.


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde

Messiaen is a very inspirational composer to me. I use a lot of palindromes in the music I've been writing recently, and I've started writing orchestral music with ondes martenot parts now!


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde

oskaar said:


> *Olivier Messiaen*
> 
> Work
> *Messiaen : Des Canyons aux étoiles, for piano and orchestra, I/51*
> 
> Artists
> Yvonne Lorid
> 
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/Messiaen-Box-...ACWO/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1317309887&sr=8-1
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> By the way, this Messiaen edition is a goldmine!


Must buy!!!!!


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## Crudblud

2008 Complete Edition is better, even has some previously unrecorded works. 

It's a shame that Wit's recordings of Turangalîla and L'ascension never get on these big sets, probably because Naxos won't license them to other record companies, but still; Wit needs representation, damn it!


----------



## Itullian

Crudblud said:


> 2008 Complete Edition is better, even has some previously unrecorded works.
> 
> It's a shame that Wit's recordings of Turangalîla and L'ascension never get on these big sets, probably because Naxos won't license them to other record companies, but still; Wit needs representation, damn it!


yes, best set, but now oop.


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## Juan

I own a CD with "Quatuor pour la fin du temps" (Barenboim at the piano). I listened to it once, just after purchasing it. And never feel like trying a second listening. What are the most accessible Messiaen works, to start with?


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## starthrower

Quartet For The End Of Time

But truthfully, listening to a piece once doesn't do much for accessibility.


----------



## ComposerOfAvantGarde

starthrower said:


> Quartet For The End Of Time
> 
> But truthfully, listening to a piece once doesn't do much for accessibility.


:lol: :clap:


----------



## Crudblud

The Vocalise from Concert à Quatre is his most obviously "easy" music, but if you're scared of things that don't occur within the musical language you're accustomed to then the rest of the Concert à Quatre probably isn't for you.


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## Juan

Ok, ok, I will give the "Quartet For The End Of Time" a second chance 

I fully agree that music with a modern languaje requires more listenings than say a Haydn symphony, before understanding the basical musical idea. But, on the other hand, i beleive that if after some serious listenings (2, 3?) you still cannot find any single passage that attracts you, then there is no point on insisting (at least for the moment).


----------



## Crudblud

Just keep coming back to it once in a while and you might have a different perspective than you did last time.


----------



## humanbean

This thread caught my eye when browsing the topic list and inspired me to start listening to Messiaen, beyond his famous symphony. I found this mysterious and epic-sounding jewel today by random selection:


----------



## PetrB

I would think you would want to know of the "Vingt regards sur l'enfant-Jésus," a grand cycle of twenty pieces for piano, a wonderful work. I really like / prefer the performances of Roger Muraro over Aimard and others.

And this, His lovely and child-like over-the top theatrical and ecstatic 
"Trois petites liturgies de la Présence divine" for orchestra ('rarified' - handled as a huge chamber ensemble)with piano, ondes martenot, and unison women's chorus.













the links are to a recent performance, quite fine. I also recommend an earlier era recording conducted by Leonard Bernstein, New York Philharmonic - now in the 'budget' archive line of Sony Classical. Bang-up job.


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## Sid James

Juan said:


> ...What are the most accessible Messiaen works, to start with?


His *8 Preludes *for piano (1928), much influenced by Debussy, but already showing hints of Messiaen's unique style to come.

Also, _*Les offrandes oubliées*_ (1930's), an early tone-poem for orchestra based on a religious theme, it has a slow/quiet - fast/loud - slow/quiet structure that isn't hard to follow. The middle intense bit always has this visceral "gut" impact on me.

Then, a late work full of whimsy, it's a tribute to Mozart - _*Un Sourire* (A Smile)_ (1991). Not copying Mozart, but it does have a hint of his humour and whimsicality.

Another early work, *Trois melodies* for soprano and piano (1930), is somewhat dark, being a tribute to Messiaen's recently deceased mother. However I don't find it depressing, and it is only 8 minutes in total. There are some less fragmented and kind of flowing melodies here (but by no means Romantic cliches), as well as this repetitive sounding but not literally repetitive piano accompaniment which sounds nothing if not but Messiaen.

Unlike yourself, Juan, I was grabbed upon first listen by the _Quartet for the End of Time_, and at that stage had very little experience with that kind of music. But each to his own I guess, and I hope my list of works helps you to connect with this great composer of the 20th century...


----------



## itywltmt

Read my blog post and podcast on Messiaen
http://itywltmt.blogspot.com/2012/03/montage-45-messiaen-spiritual.html

More to follow Tuesday here on TC


----------



## Huilunsoittaja

oskaar said:


> *Olivier Messiaen*
> 
> Work
> *Messiaen : Le merle noir, for flute and piano, I/37*
> 
> Artists
> Gunilla von Bahr, Dag Achatz
> 
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/Poulenc-Sonat...IGWY/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1317303464&sr=8-1
> 
> Wonderful flute play! Nice sound.


Currently working on this!! I may refer to this recording when preparing, it's extremely hard to fit with piano, because there is no meter.


----------



## itywltmt

This week's Tuesday Blog - our second post on Messiaen
This week's Tuesday Blog in English - our second post on Messiaen


----------



## Turangalîla

HAPPY 104th BIRTHDAY, o my lovely favourite 20th-century composer!

Your music is the BEST!!! Can't wait to see you in heaven!!! I am going to enter the international Messian competition soon—could you watch me?

Love
Your FAITHFUL DISCIPLE CARTER ♥


----------



## millionrainbows

I'm looking over the excellent book on Messiaen by Robert Sherlaw Johnson. It's my best way to find out more, short of my buying Messiaen's own book, which I've thus far postponed because of the $30-plus price tag. Besides, this is a good bird's-eye view, with succinct, clear explanations.
This reading is accompanied by Peter Hill's Unicorn-Kanchana series, the one with the Preludes (1929) and the fabulous Quatre Etudes de Rythme (1949-1950) with the prophetic "Mode de valeurs et d'intensities," a prototype of serialism. 

What are the "modes of limited transposition?" They are used in the Preludes, and listening to these is the best place to start. First off, the term itself. "Modes" has no relation to church modes or diatonic modes; in fact, these "modes" have no tonic; they are "shapes" or templates of interval relations. This is a very "serial" way of thinking, in relations rather than pitch-identities. 

The first mode is also known as the whole tone scale, so this is easy to grasp. This is the "projection" or "stacking" of an interval, in this case the major second (value:2) or "whole tone. This, as all the modes do, divides the octave symmetrically. This concern with symmetry is also a very "serial" way of approaching the materials of music. 12 divided by 2 is 6.

The second mode C-Db-Eb-E-F#-G-A-Bb-C is also known as the "half-step/whole-step" scale, the symmetrical counterpoint to the "whole-step/half-step" scale, a.k.a. the "diminished" scale. The initial notes of these modes are not intended to be "finals" or tonics; no note takes precedence over any other in this respect. This gives us 4 equal 3-note sets which overlap.

Two particular chords derived from these modes are of special interest; the first is the 'chord of resonance', derived from mode 3 (C-D-Eb-E-F#-G-Ab-Bb-C), so called because it contains a fundamental note and all its odd - number harmonics up to the 15th. The chord is, low to high, C-E-G-Bb-D-F#-G#-Bb, being 1-3-5-7-9-11-13-15 as numbered harmonics. This has far-reaching significance for younger composers, through Boulez and up to spectralism.

Also, a better understanding of Messiaen is gotten when one realizes and accepts that there is no 'harmonic function' in Messiaen, but only timbre and 'moments' in time, as we experience 'sound entities' which hang suspended, headed for no harmonic goal. This relates the 'religious' or 'spiritual' timelessness of Messiaen to both world-music and Minimalism of Terry Riley, Steve Reich, and Philip Glass.

This lack of harmonic goal-oriented harmonic function presents enormous problems of formal structure; the sense of growth & development so important to the classical symphony is lost. This was dangerously evident in his early period works (1928-43), but was overcome by his use of the rhythmic system he devised, which enabled him to extend and develop ideas significantly.


----------



## Vaneyes

For those interested, Peter Hill discusses *Messiaen* birdsong.


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## millionrainbows

Messiaen was the prototype for Spectralism. He had a "chord of resonance" which, derived from his modes of limited transposition, number 3, because it contains a fundamental and all its harmonics up to the fifteenth. He would use this chord lightly, on top of melodies, or below the note, on bottom.

The 'chord of resonance', derived from mode 3 (C-D-Eb-E-F#-G-Ab-Bb-C), so called because it contains a fundamental note and all its odd - number harmonics up to the 15th. The chord is, low to high, C-E-G-Bb-D-F#-G#-Bb, being 1-3-5-7-9-11-13-15 as numbered harmonics. This has far-reaching significance for younger composers, through Boulez and up to spectralism.


----------



## MessiaenIsGod

millionrainbows said:


> Messiaen was the prototype for Spectralism. He had a "chord of resonance" which, derived from his modes of limited transposition, number 3, because it contains a fundamental and all its harmonics up to the fifteenth. He would use this chord lightly, on top of melodies, or below the note, on bottom.
> 
> The 'chord of resonance', derived from mode 3 (C-D-Eb-E-F#-G-Ab-Bb-C), so called because it contains a fundamental note and all its odd - number harmonics up to the 15th. The chord is, low to high, C-E-G-Bb-D-F#-G#-Bb, being 1-3-5-7-9-11-13-15 as numbered harmonics. This has far-reaching significance for younger composers, through Boulez and up to spectralism.


Huh. I've never heard of spectralism before.


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## hpowders

Hey Messiaen. Your compositions are for the birds!


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## starthrower

I don't care for the birdsong stuff. Samey sounding xylophone runs. I do dig his big orchestral works, organ music, and some of the solo piano stuff. I wish I had a big listening room to blast some of the organ music.


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## hpowders

I'm glad you don't! Howdy neighbor! Bang down if you need anything!


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## shangoyal

I want to listen to Messiaen's music and don't know where to start. Any suggestions people?


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## Winterreisender

My personal favourite is his solo organ music, e.g. this one:





EDIT: I have this CD of his organ music which I rather like:


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## ptr

shangoyal said:


> I want to listen to Messiaen's music and don't know where to start. Any suggestions people?


I'd suggest to start with something "Orchestral", begin with something early like _Thème et variations_ or _L'Ascension_ then advancing to the _Turangalîla-Symphonie _or _Des canyons aux étoiles_, after these move on to the _Quatuor pour la fin du Temps_ and the piano _Preludes_ and finishing of with some organ music in the form of _La nativité du Seigneur _.

For the orchestral works Chung, Boulez and Rattle are good, For the Quatuor, Michel Béroff on EMI, Preludes go for Aimard on DG and La nativité, Gillian Weir on Priory!

/ptr


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## Vaneyes

"Why I Love Composer Olivier Messiaen" - Rufus Wainwright

http://www.theguardian.com/music/2014/mar/25/rufus-wainwright-why-i-love-messiaen

The birds! The birds!


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## millionrainbows

Messiaen was a religious composer; and, as a Catholic mystic, he was concerned, among other things, with invoking the Holy Spirit through music, just like Bach and others did. This is the fact one needs to start with when approaching Messiaen's music.

Whether or not one believes or not is not the point; the point is, this music is designed for Holy purposes, and that is the composer's intent. Whether or not you believe it is only half of the equation.

The point is, the intent, purpose, and intended function and effect of Messiaen's music is to invoke and celebrate God, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

This is music designed to activate_ psychological archetypes _which exist in all human psyches; this is _universal,_ regardless of dogma.

Messiaen's music might be clothed in Dogma of a specific kind, which you may not subscribe to, but, _as art, and music, its power transcends dogma._ You are in the presence of the Holy Ghost when you listen to this music, like it or not.

To try to artificially separate this music from its intended Holy context is disingenuous, and is a cop-out from its intended purpose and power. Such listeners are missing-out on the real purpose of this music, and at the same time, they are playing with fire. _This music is not a joke, _like John Cage is said to be;

Messiaen's music is a serious effort on a true believer's part to "invoke God." Do you think he's joking?


----------



## Jobis

millionrainbows said:


> Messiaen was a religious composer; and, as a Catholic mystic, he was concerned, among other things, with invoking the Holy Spirit through music, just like Bach and others did. This is the fact one needs to start with when approaching Messiaen's music.
> 
> Whether or not one believes or not is not the point; the point is, this music is designed for Holy purposes, and that is the composer's intent. Whether or not you believe it is only half of the equation.
> 
> The point is, the intent, purpose, and intended function and effect of Messiaen's music is to invoke and celebrate God, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.
> 
> This is music designed to activate_ psychological archetypes _which exist in all human psyches; this is _universal,_ regardless of dogma.
> 
> Messiaen's music might be clothed in Dogma of a specific kind, which you may not subscribe to, but, _as art, and music, its power transcends dogma._ You are in the presence of the Holy Ghost when you listen to this music, like it or not.
> 
> To try to artificially separate this music from its intended Holy context is disingenuous, and is a cop-out from its intended purpose and power. Such listeners are missing-out on the real purpose of this music, and at the same time, they are playing with fire. _This music is not a joke, _like John Cage is said to be;
> 
> Messiaen's music is a serious effort on a true believer's part to "invoke God." Do you think he's joking?


To a catholic like Messiaen, everything in life ought to be a serious effort to 'invoke God' (and I don't know where you picked up that phrase?), music is simply good because it is beautiful, and beauty gives glory to God. When God created man and woman he made them stewards over the earth and gave them the capacity to be creative; thus all creativity brings glory to God; regardless of whether an atheist composer like Berlioz, for example, is or was aware of it.

When we experience beauty and goodness, the general consensus of religious people is that we are experiencing God. There's nothing shady or ritualistic about it.


----------



## SeptimalTritone

I think a hugely underrated piece by Messiaen is Eclairs. If you want a deep symphony with a profound and polarizing spiritual statement, this is definitely it! It's an incredible piece, and probably my favorite modern classical work (modern meaning within the last 50 years). 

I really like the opening movement that announces a great sense of mystery, excitement, and anticipation, even though it's so calm and simple! And the movements afterwards are like a natural continuation of this cosmic mystery. Some big highlights are the central Adagio that represents the ultimate pain of humanity, and the final Adagio which feels strangely optimistic and uplifting, but not in a Beethoven/Mahler "I triumphed over the world" kind of a way. It's really hard to describe, but I feel that Messiaen understood even better than them the great spiritual message that all things, joy and sorrow, are all part of the magic of God, and the contrast between the first, central, and final Adagios really hit upon that.

Also the really colorful moments like the two birdsong movements and the "day of judgement" movement are just awesome music! And in a way, they contribute to the spiritual message of the work, because both the sounds of nature and the human fear of God and death are all part of a larger source.

Again, the final adagio is a really special statement, although... I don't necessarily know what that statement is!


----------



## Guest

ptr said:


> I'd suggest to start with something "Orchestral", begin with something early like _Thème et variations_ or _L'Ascension_ then advancing to the _Turangalîla-Symphonie _or _Des canyons aux étoiles_, after these move on to the _Quatuor pour la fin du Temps_ and the piano _Preludes_ and finishing of with some organ music in the form of _La nativité du Seigneur _.
> 
> For the orchestral works Chung, Boulez and Rattle are good, For the Quatuor, Michel Béroff on EMI, Preludes go for Aimard on DG and La nativité, Gillian Weir on Priory!
> 
> /ptr


Yeah, he could build up... or he could just let Turangalila and Des Canyons immediately blow his mind


----------



## starthrower

Apparently Millionrainbows feels the need to constantly instruct with his pedantic and condescending posts. As if other intelligent members aren't able to figure these things out for ourselves, or even disagree on certain conclusions or analytical points.


----------



## Richannes Wrahms

I highly appreciate the man for opening the doors to new sound-worlds. However, there's a lot by him to which I 'disagree' and whole pile of other stuff I find just dull. 

I do like the oiseaux. From the orchestral works I particularly prefer Chronochromie.


----------



## Mandryka

millionrainbows said:


> Messiaen was a religious composer; and, as a Catholic mystic, he was concerned, among other things, with invoking the Holy Spirit through music, just like Bach and others did. This is the fact one needs to start with when approaching Messiaen's music.
> 
> Whether or not one believes or not is not the point; the point is, this music is designed for Holy purposes, and that is the composer's intent. Whether or not you believe it is only half of the equation.
> 
> The point is, the intent, purpose, and intended function and effect of Messiaen's music is to invoke and celebrate God, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.
> 
> This is music designed to activate_ psychological archetypes _which exist in all human psyches; this is _universal,_ regardless of dogma.
> 
> Messiaen's music might be clothed in Dogma of a specific kind, which you may not subscribe to, but, _as art, and music, its power transcends dogma._ You are in the presence of the Holy Ghost when you listen to this music, like it or not.
> 
> To try to artificially separate this music from its intended Holy context is disingenuous, and is a cop-out from its intended purpose and power. Such listeners are missing-out on the real purpose of this music, and at the same time, they are playing with fire. _This music is not a joke, _like John Cage is said to be;
> 
> Messiaen's music is a serious effort on a true believer's part to "invoke God." Do you think he's joking?


I've only just read this. Tell me, do you think he was invoking god in Catalogue d'oiseaux? The commentary seems to be about birds and landscapes. Not god.


----------



## Mahlerian

Mandryka said:


> I've only just read this. Tell me, do you think he was invoking god in Catalogue d'oiseaux? The commentary seems to be about birds and landscapes. Not god.


Messiaen was quite the mystic, and it is well-documented that he saw everything as relating back to God, whether nature, birdsong, or even erotic love (guilt and sin were of little interest to him). In that way, he's not too far off of Romanticism, with its seeing evocations of the infinite (whether with religious connotations or not) everywhere in the world.


----------



## Mandryka

Mahlerian said:


> Messiaen was quite the mystic, and it is well-documented that he saw everything as relating back to God, whether nature, birdsong, or even erotic love (guilt and sin were of little interest to him). In that way, he's not too far off of Romanticism, with its seeing evocations of the infinite (whether with religious connotations or not) everywhere in the world.


I wonder if anyone's prepared to get specific. Just how is La Fauvette des Jardins invoking God?

Harry Halbreich in his book on Messiaen says that in La Fauvette des Jardins "The composer had never before suggested with such force a cosmic vision of eternity." But it's just an assertion as far as I can see.


----------



## Chronochromie

Any favourite recordings of La transfiguration, Et exspecto and the piano works (aside from Loriod)?


----------



## ptr

Der Leiermann said:


> La transfiguration


Dorati on Decca folowed by Chung on DG



> Et exspecto


Boulez on Sony followed by Cambreling on Hänssler



> and the piano works (aside from Loriod)?


Catalogue d'oiseaux = Ugorski on DG
Preludes (8) for Piano = Aimard on DG
Vingt regards sur l'enfant Jésus = Ogdon on Decca or Aimard on Teldec
Visions de l'amen = Ogdon/Lucas on Explore or The Labèque Sisters on Erato

Based purely on emotions after listening! 

/ptr


----------



## deprofundis

For me turangalila symphony is the peek of his creation, terrifying, mystical, introspective.I have to admit it took me a long time to enjoy it fully because before it scared me to death has i mention in a past post.Scarry but fascinathing , and i have the naxos double cd of it, wondering if they were better recording not that it's bad. but Did Karajan conducted turangalila symphony ..
what is the best version of this infameous masterpiece. i rank it above his quartet for the end of time.Who worship this symphony here?


----------



## Crudblud

deprofundis said:


> For me turangalila symphony is the peek of his creation, terrifying, mystical, introspective.I have to admit it took me a long time to enjoy it fully because before it scared me to death has i mention in a past post.Scarry but fascinathing , and i have the naxos double cd of it, wondering if they were better recording not that it's bad. but Did Karajan conducted turangalila symphony ..
> what is the best version of this infameous masterpiece. i rank it above his quartet for the end of time.Who worship this symphony here?


Personally, the Naxos 2CD with Antoni Wit and the PNRSO _is_ the best recording available. Most recordings sound like Chung: sloppy fast movements, an orchestra overpowered by percussion which sounds poorly mixed, and an Ondes that is shrill and that seems to be apart from the other instruments, opposed to rather than working with them. Wit and the recording personnel avoid all these problems.


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## Chronochromie

Crudblud said:


> Personally, the Naxos 2CD with Antoni Wit and the PNRSO _is_ the best recording available. Most recordings sound like Chung: sloppy fast movements, an orchestra overpowered by percussion which sounds poorly mixed, and an Ondes that is shrill and that seems to be apart from the other instruments, opposed to rather than working with them. Wit and the recording personnel avoid all these problems.


Huh, I thought Messiaen himself praised Chung's recording.


----------



## Crudblud

Der Leiermann said:


> Huh, I thought Messiaen himself praised Chung's recording.


That's why I prefaced the post with "personally." Messiaen supervised the recording and it was the first to use his revised score - provenance is on Chung's side, as it were. Wit's is by far the most powerful and unified recording I have heard, the sound is so rich, the pacing so exact, the mix so beautifully balanced, the soloists so aware and deliberate in their phrasing. This is not to say Chung and similar are bad, but I find them terribly inconsistent from movement to movement, and their orchestral forces poorly balanced.


----------



## QuietGuy

All I've ever heard of his music is Quartet for the End of Time. Since I have a bent toward French composers, he's one I'd best check out further.

When I was in college, majoring in composition and floundering because I could not catch on to 20th century harmonic principles, a tutor put me onto Messiaen and his _Technique of My Musical Language_. It was the Modes of Limited Transposition I found there that saved me. I was able to write pieces that pleased the professors and me ..... and saved myself from being expelled from the program.


----------



## Chronochromie

Crudblud said:


> That's why I prefaced the post with "personally." Messiaen supervised the recording and it was the first to use his revised score - provenance is on Chung's side, as it were. Wit's is by far the most powerful and unified recording I have heard, the sound is so rich, the pacing so exact, the mix so beautifully balanced, the soloists so aware and deliberate in their phrasing. This is not to say Chung and similar are bad, but I find them terribly inconsistent from movement to movement, and their orchestral forces poorly balanced.


I'll check out Wit's recording. He's coming to my city in a few months and will be conducting Gorecki, Khachaturian and Lutoslawski.


----------



## Richannes Wrahms

QuietGuy said:


> When I was in college, majoring in composition and floundering because I could not catch on to 20th century harmonic principles, a tutor put me onto Messiaen and his _Technique of My Musical Language_. It was the Modes of Limited Transposition I found there that saved me. I was able to write pieces that pleased the professors and me ..... and saved myself from being expelled from the program.


It seems many have had that phase, probably born from the expectations set by the systematic teaching of CP tonality. They could have given you Hindemith's _The Craft of Musical Composition_ or even Schoenberg's _Harmonielehre_. The point: being able to grasp how the ideas behind harmony changed and became more idiosyncratic.


----------



## PetrB

QuietGuy said:


> All I've ever heard of his music is Quartet for the End of Time. Since I have a bent toward French composers, he's one I'd best check out further.


I've had a soft spot over many years for *Messiaen's ~ Trois petites liturgies de la présence divine*, for unison female chorus and orchestra, including piano and ondes Martenot. Very lyric, over-the-top in that childish / childlike was the composer is also known for, and essentially a kind of chamber music for an unusually 'large' ensemble (but within more normal expectations as to number of players.) It is in three movements, duration about one half hour.


----------



## Mahlerian

Richannes Wrahms said:


> It seems many have had that phase, probably born from the expectations set by the systematic teaching of CP tonality. They could have given you Hindemith's _The Craft of Musical Composition_ or even Schoenberg's _Harmonielehre_. The point: being able to grasp how the ideas behind harmony changed and became more idiosyncratic.


More helpful would be to study a combination of sources; as there is no common practice today, it is better that we become used to a range of individual harmonic practices.


----------



## schigolch

* 'Why do birds sound like birds, but Messiaen's birds sound like Messiaen?'* - Alexander Goehr.

Of course this was a provocative question, but it's true that Messiaen's birds are very stylized, idealized, with an amazing timbrical richness. My favorite pieces are "Oiseaux Exotiques", the bird concerts within "Saint François", and the penultimate movement of "Des canyons aux étoiles".

Surely, Messian's music is more about describing Messiaen's own mind than Bryce Canyon. But when I listen to 'Zion Park et la cité céleste', such a beautiful and serene music, I feel like a small window is opening into eternity.


----------



## MagneticGhost

I recently bought the Complete Edition of Messiaen on DG.

Been listening to Olivier Latry playing L'Ascension.

It's Transendant. :angel: Thank you to the 2 Oliviers.


----------



## Morimur

Messiaen was a true musical genius for whom music served one single purpose—to directly praise and glorify God.


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## Richannes Wrahms

schigolch said:


> * 'Why do birds sound like birds, but Messiaen's birds sound like Messiaen?'* -


Brings out the good old: Why does Rimsky-Korsakov sounds like Rimsky-Korsakov, but Stravinsky sounds like Rimsky-Korsakov?

Of course this was a provocative question, but it's true that Stravinsky's other-composers-musics are very stylized, idealised, with an amazing timbrical richness. 

Surely, Stravisnky's music is more about describing Stravinsky's own mind than Pagan Russia or the 18th century or religious myth. But when I listen to 'Dumbarton Oaks', such beautiful and exiting music, I feel like a small window is opening into eternity but then I realise all inspiration soon dryes out after a few bars and I'm getting second-hand Haydn and every time the material is recapitulated it comes out duller and duller, like Heroin or Handel. In later works you get second hand Schoenberg-Webern! everything with a Russian tingeret overt it of course.

You can hate me for this commentary


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## Birdsong88

Messiaen is my favorite composer from any era. I have listened to nearly all of his works, except for some of his early works. I could listen to his music all day and not get tired of it. He composed music of such originality.


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## elgar's ghost

^^

Hence your user name, presumably?


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## Birdsong88

Precisely! :lol:


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## brotagonist

I've been a lifelong fan of Messiaen's music. His is the only overtly religious music that I can go gaga about :lol:


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## Avey

This movement, upon hearing it for the first time earlier today, has gotten a *HOLD* of me:






_*Joie du Sang des Étoiles*_

Magic. Stroke of absolute genius.


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## Morimur

I find Messiaen's Turangalîla symphony quite problematic...as in kitschy. Parts of it I love but others I am not so sure of.


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## Richannes Wrahms

Sounds like some wacky TV game show music.


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## Avey

Richannes Wrahms said:


> Sounds like some wacky TV game show music.


In which it is life or death, and ancient, mystical things commanding you to choose wisely, else ...

_"...The first cyclic theme, in weighty thirds, nearly always played by trombones fortissimo, has that oppressive, terrifying brutality of Mexican ancient monuments. For me it has always evoked some dread and fatal statue... . I call it the 'statue theme'. The second cyclic theme, assigned to caressing clarinets in a pianissimo, is in two parts, like two eyes reflecting each other [...] Here the most appropriate image is of a flower. One might think of a delicate orchid, a florid fuchsia, a red gladiolus, an excessively pliant convolvulus. I therefore call this the 'flower theme'. ..."_ - From A. Shenton's "Olivier Messiaen's System of Signs..." (relaying liner notes, translated, from a recording)

A red gladiolus! An excessively pliant convolvulus!!


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## Chronochromie

Morimur said:


> I find Messiaen's Turangalîla symphony quite problematic...as in kitschy. Parts of it I love but others I am not so sure of.


Give me more kitschy music then, I need it.


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## starthrower

Trois petites liturgies de la présence divine - 1. Antienne de la conversation intérieure

Trois petites liturgies de la présence divine - 2. Sequence du verbe, cantique divin

Trois petites liturgies de la présence divine - 3. Psalmodie de l'ubiquité par amour

Couleurs de la Cité Céleste

Hymne au Saint-Sacrement


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## brotagonist

^ Those petites liturgies are works I have never heard. I need to consider them some time


----------



## starthrower

brotagonist said:


> ^ Those petites liturgies are works I have never heard. I need to consider them some time


I enjoy them. And I'm not a huge Messiaen fan.


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## Weston

I listened to parts of "Et exspecto resurrectionem mortuorum" today at work. Astonishing! I think I should abandon my exploration of modern composers and just explore Messiaen for a while. Does this movement 5 or section 5 intentionally quote Holst's The Planets / Uranus?


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## Guest

Today and yesterday I listened to the organworks of Messiaen.
Le Banquet celeste , Diptyque, Apparation de L Église eternelle, Livre d'orgue and a few other pieces.
I realy enjoyed listening to most pieces but the Livre d'orgue needs more listening,with some parts I have a little difficulty. It is fascinating to discover new soundworlds so to speak and in this case very rewarding.
I did not choose for the Latry recordings wich I have too,but for Willem Tanke for whom I have a preference.

image post


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## Reichstag aus LICHT

Willem Tanke's fine set of Messiaen's organ music (download version) is available really cheaply from Amazon, iTunes and 7Digital. At around £10 or less, it's an incredible bargain.


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## Janspe

I've had a Messiaen day today, and I just wanted to come and share my enthusiasm for the _Trois petites liturgies de la présence divine._ It is a work of incredible beauty, sensuality and mystery - steadily becoming one of my favourite 20th century works by any composer!

I listened to a lot of other pieces as well, and by the time I got around to going through the _Poèmes pour Mi,_ I ended up reading a review of the performance in question, written by the ever-provoking David Hurwitz at classicstoday.com. Here's what he said:



> Messiaen was his own worst enemy when it came to vocal writing. Not only are his own texts often embarrassing (to the extent they are comprehensible at all), but his abuse of the human voice makes them almost impossible to sing with any feeling or beauty of tone. Francoise Pollet does her best in Poèmes pour Mi, but it's basically a lost cause from the start. --- So don't worry about the Poèmes; whatever Messiaen was up to, it's still not as twisted as late Tippett (though, to be fair, Tippett was more fun).


Could someone please elaborate for me what is it in Messiaen's vocal writing that bothers Mr. Hurwitz so much? I'm asking this question in earnest, because I've really enjoyed Messiaen's vocal pieces since I started listening to his music. Is there some major flaw (or as Mr. Hurwitz calls it, _abuse of the human voice_) that I'm missing here?

(PS. Here's the full review in case anyone's interested, although there's not much more in there than the quoted snippet.)


----------



## Chronochromie

Janspe said:


> Could someone please elaborate for me what is it in Messiaen's vocal writing that bothers Mr. Hurwitz so much? I'm asking this question in earnest, because I've really enjoyed Messiaen's vocal pieces since I started listening to his music. Is there some major flaw (or as Mr. Hurwitz calls it, _abuse of the human voice_) that I'm missing here?


I don't think so, at least none that I've noticed, maybe the members who know about theory can weigh in. Messiaen's writing for choirs reminds me of Webern sometimes. Here's his otherwordly Vocalise étude.


----------



## Figleaf

Janspe said:


> I've had a Messiaen day today, and I just wanted to come and share my enthusiasm for the _Trois petites liturgies de la présence divine._ It is a work of incredible beauty, sensuality and mystery - steadily becoming one of my favourite 20th century works by any composer!
> 
> I listened to a lot of other pieces as well, and by the time I got around to going through the _Poèmes pour Mi,_ I ended up reading a review of the performance in question, written by the ever-provoking David Hurwitz at classicstoday.com. Here's what he said:
> 
> Could someone please elaborate for me what is it in Messiaen's vocal writing that bothers Mr. Hurwitz so much? I'm asking this question in earnest, because I've really enjoyed Messiaen's vocal pieces since I started listening to his music. Is there some major flaw (or as Mr. Hurwitz calls it, _abuse of the human voice_) that I'm missing here?
> 
> (PS. Here's the full review in case anyone's interested, although there's not much more in there than the quoted snippet.)


I haven't heard 'Poèmes Pour Mi', but I've listened to 'St François d'Assise' five or six times now, and José van Dam certainly sings with plenty of feeling and absolutely gorgeous tone. (I also like Rachel Yakar in 'Harawi' but I'm not really a lover of female voices.) I'm quite ready to believe that Messiaen's music is challenging to sing, though, and we're lucky that there have been singers who could do his lovely music justice.


----------



## Ilarion

I listen to Messiaen (at least one work or part of a work everyday). Why? because his music speaks of things that should be a part of everyone's weltanschauung. Yes, I understand his music isn't everyones' cup of tea and I respect that...:tiphat:


----------



## millionrainbows

Janspe said:


> I've had a Messiaen day today, and I just wanted to come and share my enthusiasm for the _Trois petites liturgies de la présence divine._ It is a work of incredible beauty, sensuality and mystery - steadily becoming one of my favourite 20th century works by any composer!
> 
> I listened to a lot of other pieces as well, and by the time I got around to going through the _Poèmes pour Mi,_ I ended up reading a review of the performance in question, written by the ever-provoking David Hurwitz at classicstoday.com. Here's what he said:
> 
> Could someone please elaborate for me what is it in Messiaen's vocal writing that bothers Mr. Hurwitz so much? I'm asking this question in earnest, because I've really enjoyed Messiaen's vocal pieces since I started listening to his music. Is there some major flaw (or as Mr. Hurwitz calls it, _abuse of the human voice_) that I'm missing here?
> 
> (PS. Here's the full review in case anyone's interested, although there's not much more in there than the quoted snippet.)


If Hurwitz is comparing Messiaen to late Tippet, then I would not bother with the other negative generalizations about vocal writing. He even admits that he does not know what Messiaen was "up to."

Those of us who have heard Messiaen with our full beings, with a fresh outlook, know what it is about his music that provokes awe and colour and timelessness. We listen in our beings, not in our restricted mind-sets.


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## millionrainbows

Morimur said:


> Messiaen was a true musical genius for whom music served one single purpose-to directly praise and glorify God.


That's a two-way street, Morimur. Messiaen was a Catholic mystic. Did you ever notice how dilated his pupils always were? The dude was trippin', man, trippin'!!!


----------



## millionrainbows

shangoyal said:


> I want to listen to Messiaen's music and don't know where to start. Any suggestions people?


First, you better get right with God. This means direct mystic experience. I suggest getting several weather balloons and tying them onto a lawn chair. As you ascend, you will see, you will see.


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## millionrainbows

Jobis said:


> To a catholic like Messiaen, everything in life ought to be a serious effort to 'invoke God' (and I don't know where you picked up that phrase?), music is simply good because it is beautiful, and beauty gives glory to God. When God created man and woman he made them stewards over the earth and gave them the capacity to be creative; thus all creativity brings glory to God; regardless of whether an atheist composer like Berlioz, for example, is or was aware of it.
> 
> When we experience beauty and goodness, the general consensus of religious people is that we are experiencing God. There's nothing shady or ritualistic about it.


Oh, but don't say that to the spirit-killers, or their victims. You take for granted what has been, and is being, murdered every day. Perhaps the time will come when your prayers become "invocations."


----------



## Ilarion

millionrainbows said:


> That's a two-way street, Morimur. Messiaen was a Catholic mystic. Did you ever notice how dilated his pupils always were? The dude was trippin', man, trippin'!!!


"...Dilated his pupils were"...

Hi Millionrainbows,

Thats very observant - Thank you for sharing. In Swedish there is the term "Fjärrsyn" (I collude dilated pupils with the Swedish term) - loosely translated as: Ability to gather information from great distances. Some say its a paranormal activity - I would disagree with that, since Messiaen let his life be guided by the work of the Triune God. Maybe the epithet "paranormal" is a nomenclature irresponsibly used to identify things that cannot be explained by rational logic.


----------



## seven four

I really connected with the piano music, the pipe organ too. I own the Messiaen Edition and a few other things.



.


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## Reichstag aus LICHT

millionrainbows said:


> Did you ever notice how dilated his pupils always were?


Yes, especially Stockhausen and Xenakis....


----------



## tdc

I've had difficulties with Messiaen's music but I'm starting to enjoy _Vingt regards sur l'enfant-Jésus_.

I think Pierre-Laurent Aimard's performance here is part of the reason.


----------



## Xenakiboy

I love Messiaen's work. Quartet for the End of Time was an important to me in my late teens, many of his orchestral and organ works have also become my favourite works. He frequently has a very intoxicating ethereal sound that takes me to beautiful alien landscapes.
I see him to Xenakis as Rimsy Korsakov was to Stravinsky. There are many connections between Messiaen's music to my idol and I see him as a more significant influence on Xenakis than Varese. Messiaen's organ music is very important to me as Bach's, I see a connection there too but I'm going to stop analysing.

Messiaen's music is an experience I can only compare (in its intoxicating effect) to Rautavaara and Xenakis. I love his work a lot!!!


----------



## millionrainbows

Mandryka said:


> I've only just read this. Tell me, do you think he was invoking god in Catalogue d'oiseaux? The commentary seems to be about birds and landscapes. Not god.


Hey, tell it to Morimur (post #119).

You could meet us halfway, Mandryka. 
Birds, and their environment of nature, is to many believers the evidence of the creator. 
Does it really matter, in the overall context of Messiaen's oeuvre, whether or not he was writing about birds or some religious subject? 
In the final analysis, I think not.

Wow, upon reading my earlier posts, I am struck by how "enthusiastic" they are. I must have been in a mystic mood. But isn't this a good way to approach artists like Messiaen? With no compromises, no holding back, just like they create their art? But as a disclaimer, I am not a mystic or an overly-religious person.

BTW, that Peter Hill book on Messiaen is excellent!


----------



## sctubes

Always intrigued by Messiaen's music. I have several works on CD and now looking to add vinyl.


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## Mandryka

millionrainbows said:


> You could meet us halfway, Mandryka.
> Birds, and their environment of nature, is to many believers the evidence of the creator.
> Does it really matter, in the overall context of Messiaen's oeuvre, whether or not he was writing about birds or some religious subject?
> In the final analysis, I think not.


It's like he goes back to an Impressionism of the most banal kind. Formless music where his primary objective is to make the piano sound like real birdies.



millionrainbows said:


> I am not a mystic or an overly-religious person.


You certainly gave me the opposite impression, so I'm glad to hear it.


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## millionrainbows

Mandryka said:


> It's like he goes back to an Impressionism of the most banal kind. Formless music where his primary objective is to make the piano sound like real birdies.


It is a rather simplistic approach. Maybe if it had been about cats, with costumes...

It would be a good Warner Bros. cartoon: Messiaen meets Tweety Bird.



> You certainly gave me the opposite impression, so I'm glad to hear it.


I like the mysticism, just not all the religion. I remember these two weird boys in the second grade who brought a black and white photograph to school. It was a picture of clouds that their mother took, and they said you could see God in it. I didn't see it, and it kind of creeped me out. They were strange kids, who wore their shirts buttoned all the way up.


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## Reichstag aus LICHT

millionrainbows said:


> They were strange kids, who wore their shirts buttoned all the way up.


Did they have extra-long sleeves, with buckles at the back?


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## Mandryka

millionrainbows said:


> I like the mysticism, just not all the religion. I remember these two weird boys in the second grade who brought a black and white photograph to school. It was a picture of clouds that their mother took, and they said you could see God in it. I didn't see it, and it kind of creeped me out. They were strange kids, who wore their shirts buttoned all the way up.


"Qui aimes-tu le mieux, homme énigmatique, dis ? ton père, ta mère, ta sœur ou ton frère ?
- Je n'ai ni père, ni mère, ni sœur, ni frère.
- Tes amis ?
- Vous vous servez là d'une parole dont le sens m'est resté jusqu'à ce jour inconnu.
- Ta patrie ?
- J'ignore sous quelle latitude elle est située.
- La beauté ?
- Je l'aimerais volontiers, déesse et immortelle.
- L'or ?
- Je le hais comme vous haïssez Dieu.
- Eh ! qu'aimes-tu donc, extraordinaire étranger ?
- J'aime les nuages... les nuages qui passent... là-bas... là-bas... les merveilleux nuages !"


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## Mandryka

millionrainbows said:


> It is a rather simplistic approach. Maybe if it had been about cats, with costumes...
> 
> It would be a good Warner Bros. cartoon: Messiaen meets Tweety Bird.


I meant to say this yesterday but I got disturbed. It's because of this that I'm so keen to get clear about the religious content of the catalogue. But as far as I can see no research has been published on it.


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## cimirro

Probably not the easiest Messiaen piece to listen to
but the one responsible for changing the life of Boulez and Stockhausen for sure!
(not sure if this means something good or not hahaha  )




just posted, hope the Messiaen fans enjoy it, there is a lot of use of middle pedal... rare effect.
All the best


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## millionrainbows

cimirro said:


> Probably not the easiest Messiaen piece to listen to
> but the one responsible for changing the life of Boulez and Stockhausen for sure!
> (not sure if this means something good or not hahaha  )
> 
> 
> 
> 
> just posted, hope the Messiaen fans enjoy it, there is a lot of use of middle pedal... rare effect.
> All the best


This is one of my favorites, and I am aware of its importance to the post-war serialists. This sounds really good, crisper than my Peter Hill.

Wow! Are you Artur Cimmiro?


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## cimirro

Yes, happy to hear I'm not so unknown


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## millionrainbows

cimirro said:


> Yes, happy to hear I'm not so unknown


I was immediately alerted to the piano playing, and knew this was something to look into. I'd like to find some of your recordings on CD. I searched Amazon once. I will keep looking. I found the link to the Polish record label…very interesting, and also interesting that you recorded the works of Geza Vichy, a pianist with one arm. I will continue to be interested.

Some very interesting things on that Polish label, Acte Préalable.


----------



## cimirro

millionrainbows said:


> I was immediately alerted to the piano playing, and knew this was something to look into. I'd like to find some of your recordings on CD. I searched Amazon once. I will keep looking. I found the link to the Polish record label…very interesting, and also interesting that you recorded the works of Geza Vichy, a pianist with one arm. I will continue to be interested.
> 
> Some very interesting things on that Polish label, Acte Préalable.


Thank you for your words
There are 2 CDs of mine available from Acte Prealable
Karol Tausig - Complete Original Piano Works (http://www.acteprealable.com/albums/new_ap0359.html)
Aleksander Michalowski - Piano Works vol.1 (http://www.acteprealable.com/albums/new_ap0365.html)

The 2 CDs with the complete works for piano solo by Geza Zichy will be available during October (CDs AP0371 AP0372)

Hopefully a lot of new recordings will be made in the next months, the next Tausig is already recorded. (It will be 13 Tausig Cds) and there are others like Szanto, Srebdolsky, etc, too.

all the best


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## starthrower

Question to Messiaen enthusiasts. Which recordings do you prefer? DG or Erato?


----------



## Sina

starthrower said:


> Question to Messiaen enthusiasts. Which recordings do you prefer? DG or Erato?


Definitely DG for me. Why? I don't know.


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## millionrainbows

starthrower said:


> Question to Messiaen enthusiasts. Which recordings do you prefer? DG or Erato?


I like Boulez' Et Exspecto the best, the one done on Columbia, pictured below. According to the info on Amazon, the same ensemble (Groupe Instrumental a Percussion de Strasbourg/Ensemble) performs this work in the Erato box set (17 CDs). Does anybody know if the two are the same?












​








​


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## starthrower

I have the Erato version in the Boulez Erato box. Recording date is Jan 1966. Anyway, Presto Classical has a great deal on the Messiaen Erato box at 29 dollars. It's heavy on the keyboard works. http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/r/Warner+Classics/2564621622


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## Lenny

Messiaen is strange... I like the usual suspects (Turangalila, end of time quartet etc..) but the real challenge for me has been his organ works. The ones like "The Glorified Body", "Trinity mediatations"... that's literally scary music. Real, provoking art in my books. So detached from our every day busy life... so alien.


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## PeterFromLA

The crescendos in Et Exspecto must be heard live to be truly experienced: they are overwhelming. No recording I've heard do them justice.


----------



## jailhouse

Lenny said:


> Messiaen is strange... I like the usual suspects (Turangalila, end of time quartet etc..) but the real challenge for me has been his organ works. The ones like "The Glorified Body", "Trinity mediatations"... that's literally scary music. Real, provoking art in my books. So detached from our every day busy life... so alien.


yeah his organ work is pretty much unparalleled imo. Will definitely be considered alongside the great organ composers in the future.

Apparition of the eternal church is like the single most awesome crescendo ever


----------



## Lenny

jailhouse said:


> yeah his organ work is pretty much unparalleled imo. Will definitely be considered alongside the great organ composers in the future.
> 
> Apparition of the eternal church is like the single most awesome crescendo ever


Agreed. Have you seen the movie? http://www.apparitionfilm.com/

I don't own a DVD player, so I'm just hoping that some day, there comes a streaming service that has all these music movies, operas etc.


----------



## Lenny

I'm totally feeling the gravitation towards Messian's music again. Even ordered the book mentioned by millionrainbows.


----------



## jailhouse

Lenny said:


> Agreed. Have you seen the movie? http://www.apparitionfilm.com/
> 
> I don't own a DVD player, so I'm just hoping that some day, there comes a streaming service that has all these music movies, operas etc.


I've looked for this movie on every streaming site and torrent site and never found it. I'd love seeing it, definitely wouldnt buy it though lol


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## jailhouse

anyone heard this one yet? https://www.amazon.com/Olivier-Mess...&qid=1486702358&sr=1-4&keywords=vingt+regards

I sampled it a bit and the sound quality is incredible. Performance sounds good too. Gunna listen through soon. Can't find a single review or mention of this release anywhere.

his performance here is great as well





edit: ok listening now. An excellent performance but the sound is sometimes marred by loud digital recording distortions especially during quiet sections (like number 11). A pity really.


----------



## Janspe

Listening to _Des canyons aux étoiles..._ and getting totally enthusiastic about Messiaen again. I occasionally "forget" about him as there's so much other music to listen to, but at some point I always start hearing the birds calling for me and I know it's time to return to his work. He's such a great composer!


----------



## Heliogabo

Mandryka said:


> "Qui aimes-tu le mieux, homme énigmatique, dis ? ton père, ta mère, ta sœur ou ton frère ?
> - Je n'ai ni père, ni mère, ni sœur, ni frère.
> - Tes amis ?
> - Vous vous servez là d'une parole dont le sens m'est resté jusqu'à ce jour inconnu.
> - Ta patrie ?
> - J'ignore sous quelle latitude elle est située.
> - La beauté ?
> - Je l'aimerais volontiers, déesse et immortelle.
> - L'or ?
> - Je le hais comme vous haïssez Dieu.
> - Eh ! qu'aimes-tu donc, extraordinaire étranger ?
> - J'aime les nuages... les nuages qui passent... là-bas... là-bas... les merveilleux nuages !"


Baudelaire, Le spleen de Paris. Nice.


----------



## millionrainbows

Any time we are faced with religious and spiritual matters, we are sometimes asked to "stop time" and contemplate these things. Like in prayer or meditation, we contemplate those things which are beyond time, and which "stop time" for us. We are asked to discard the details, leave the linear, narrative passage of time, and enter into those things which are eternal. Thus, Messiaen's music is not so much narrative and linear, but presents us with sound events which exist as singularities, standing by themselves, unconnected to a narrative, linear sequence of events. There is no "development" in this sense. Time has stopped, so to speak.

BTW, thanks, star thrower, for the Erato link to Presto. I listened to the samples, and it appears to be the same recording as the Columbia vinyl.

Also, it appears to be on another new Warner 25-CD set, coming out in April.










Lok at that dude, holding a flower! I tell you, man, he's tripping!


----------



## Lenny

millionrainbows said:


> Any time we are faced with religious and spiritual matters, we are sometimes asked to "stop time" and contemplate these things. Like in prayer or meditation, we contemplate those things which are beyond time, and which "stop time" for us. We are asked to discard the details, leave the linear, narrative passage of time, and enter into those things which are eternal. Thus, Messiaen's music is not so much narrative and linear, but presents us with sound events which exist as singularities, standing by themselves, unconnected to a narrative, linear sequence of events. There is no "development" in this sense. Time has stopped, so to speak.


I think your "tripping" captures a lot of Messiaen's essence 

He's a special chapter in the history of music. Strangely, I find his musical effects quite similar to Bruckner. Yes! Bruckner is essentially doing same sort of trickery, but with lots of repetitive, utterly massive soundscapes.


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## millionrainbows

Lenny said:


> I think your "tripping" captures a lot of Messiaen's essence
> 
> He's a special chapter in the history of music. Strangely, I find his musical effects quite similar to Bruckner. Yes! Bruckner is essentially doing same sort of trickery, but with lots of repetitive, utterly massive soundscapes.


Good analogy. Bruckner creates vast landscapes, which I especially hear when Celibidache conducts. The narrative is so vast, we get lost in it. Similar to Wagner, time slows or stops. However, I don't get the "singular" events which stand out, as in Messiaen and Varese. Maybe music hadn't _reached_ this possible state yet (I hesitate to say _'progressed'_ in deference to the narrative contingent).

One of the hallmarks of more 'modern' music in the 20th century is the treatment of material as 'blocks' of material which can be moved around, yet exist as self-sufficient, independent structures. I hear this especially in Varese. Also, a ritualistic, incantatory, ceremonial atmosphere, evident in Messiaen, Varese, Debussy, Jolivet and others. This evocative atmosphere of ceremony invites us to 'go interior' and enter the realm of the eternal, where time slows. This seems also to be true of Philip Glass and some of the Minimalists.


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## Bettina

millionrainbows said:


> Good analogy. Bruckner creates vast landscapes, which I especially hear when Celibidache conducts. The narrative is so vast, we get lost in it. Similar to Wagner, time slows or stops. However, I don't get the "singular" events which stand out, as in Messiaen and Varese. Maybe music hadn't _reached_ this possible state yet (I hesitate to say _'progressed'_ in deference to the narrative contingent).
> 
> One of the hallmarks of more 'modern' music in the 20th century is the treatment of material as 'blocks' of material which can be moved around, yet exist as self-sufficient, independent structures. I hear this especially in Varese. Also, a ritualistic, incantatory, ceremonial atmosphere, evident in Messiaen, Varese, Debussy, Jolivet and others. This evocative atmosphere of ceremony invites us to 'go interior' and enter the realm of the eternal, where time slows. This seems also to be true of Philip Glass and some of the Minimalists.


Great post! I especially like your points about the ritualistic atmosphere in Debussy, Messiaen and several others. I find it interesting how Debussy and Messiaen created a similar type of transcendent atmosphere, yet they were (I think) inspired by quite different spiritual traditions.

As far as I know, Debussy's sense of timelessness was rooted in Eastern traditions, particularly the ceremonial atmosphere of gamelan music. Messiaen, on the other hand, was inspired primarily by Catholicism, not by Eastern influences. Yet, despite these divergent spiritual influences, the resulting effect was somewhat similar: a sense of the eternal Now.


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## millionrainbows

Bettina said:


> As far as I know, Debussy's sense of timelessness was rooted in Eastern traditions, particularly the ceremonial atmosphere of gamelan music. Messiaen, on the other hand, was inspired primarily by Catholicism, not by Eastern influences. Yet, despite these divergent spiritual influences, the resulting effect was somewhat similar: a sense of the eternal Now.


As I recall, Messiaen also was influenced by Gamelon music. Debussy heard it at a Paris Exposition, so this sort of thing was in the air, especially with the French interest in exoticism.

If Messiaen was influenced primarily by Catholicism, it was certainly not by the _music_ of Catholicism, but only its belief system and imagery.

I hear this same 'ritualistic' atmosphere in Boulez' Le Marteau sans Maitre and Pli selon Pli. It reminds me of Varese' use of the soprano voice. Also, all the percussion in Le Marteau is reminiscent of gamelon and Messiaen.

This seems to be a French phenomenon, n'est-ce pas?


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## cimirro

Reading what millionrainbows said, I remember one case of inspiration on rites from Papua Ne Guinea (Ile de feu I & II).


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## millionrainbows

cimirro said:


> Reading what millionrainbows said, I remember one case of inspiration on rites from Papua Ne Guinea (Ile de feu I & II).


Hi, Cimirro! I hope your recording and concertizing is going well. What is the recording you mention?


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## cimirro

millionrainbows said:


> Hi, Cimirro! I hope your recording and concertizing is going well. What is the recording you mention?


Yes, thank you, everything is going well, and some new CDs will be announced shortly. I'm trying to do as much as possible.
I'm not sure if I understand correctly what you ask concerning "the recording you mention", 
You want me to mention an "Ile de feu I & II" recording? (I only listened Loriod and Austbø when I was "finishing the study" on the 4 pieces)
or you mean something concerning another thing I wrote in other post?


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## millionrainbows

cimirro said:


> Yes, thank you, everything is going well, and some new CDs will be announced shortly. I'm trying to do as much as possible.
> I'm not sure if I understand correctly what you ask concerning "the recording you mention",
> You want me to mention an "Ile de feu I & II" recording? (I only listened Loriod and Austbø when I was "finishing the study" on the 4 pieces)
> or you mean something concerning another thing I wrote in other post?


Yes, I was referring to "Ile de feu I & II". It is a work I am apparently unaware of. However, I forgot to consider that since you are a pianist, you can refer to a work from score.

EDIT: Ok, I understand now. These two are movements from the work _*Quatre études de rythme.*_

I have heard of Hakon Austbo, he's one of my favorites. I like his recording of Peter Schat's Chamber music:


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## PeterFromLA

Re millionrainbows' point about commonalities across Bruckner, Messiaen, and Glass, Glass has spoken about his preference for the term "modular music" in describing his work, as opposed to minimalism. As with modular art or furniture, the work is composed in the form of blocks or units that can be combined and recombined to different effects. The modular form is clearly evident in the works of all three composers, even though they work with the idea in different ways.


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## cimirro

millionrainbows said:


> Yes, I was referring to "Ile de feu I & II". It is a work I am apparently unaware of. However, I forgot to consider that since you are a pianist, you can refer to a work from score.
> 
> EDIT: Ok, I understand now. These two are movements from the work _*Quatre études de rythme.*_
> 
> I have heard of Hakon Austbo, he's one of my favorites. I like his recording of Peter Schat's Chamber music:


Yes, these 4 pieces (and the Fantaisie Burlesque) are my favorites to play. 
I remember listening Austbø as a very powerful interpreter, a lot of energy in his playing. I have all his Messiaen recordings (and all the scores.)
So, as far as I know he recorded all Messiaen piano works (except if someone found a new manuscript recently and I'm unaware).
I shall listen the Schat's CD you mention at some point, I didn't know it.


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## ahinton

millionrainbows said:


> Good analogy. Bruckner creates vast landscapes, which I especially hear when Celibidache conducts. The narrative is so vast, we get lost in it. Similar to Wagner, time slows or stops. However, I don't get the "singular" events which stand out, as in Messiaen and Varese. Maybe music hadn't _reached_ this possible state yet (I hesitate to say _'progressed'_ in deference to the narrative contingent).
> 
> One of the hallmarks of more 'modern' music in the 20th century is the treatment of material as 'blocks' of material which can be moved around, yet exist as self-sufficient, independent structures. I hear this especially in Varese. Also, a ritualistic, incantatory, ceremonial atmosphere, evident in Messiaen, Varese, Debussy, Jolivet and others. This evocative atmosphere of ceremony invites us to 'go interior' and enter the realm of the eternal, where time slows. This seems also to be true of Philip Glass and some of the Minimalists.


Interesting thoughts indeed but it has to be said that, whereas "Messiaen, Varèse, Debussy, Jolivet and others" composed music, Mr Glass simply writes notes...


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## millionrainbows

ahinton said:


> Interesting thoughts indeed but it has to be said that, whereas "Messiaen, Varèse, Debussy, Jolivet and others" composed music, Mr Glass simply writes notes...


Maybe that's more apparent in the stripped-down solo piano works; it could be said that Bach simply "wrote notes," but I get emotion from Glass, especially in the larger orchestral works.


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## millionrainbows

Peter Schat's "Tone Clock" is an interesting concept; it creates 12 different "triads" which create 12 different "tonalities."










ISBN-13: 978-3718653690


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## Lenny

Last week I heard live Turangalîla for the first time. Experience was interesting... I had so much expectations and to my delight thery were mostly justified. I enjoyed especially the slow and very subtle parts of the work, they were just magical. I don't use that word very lightly, but it's hard to describe it differently. After all those stormy, maniac waves of sounds, these little, beatiful, repetitive dances were just... well... magical.


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## Janspe

Lenny said:


> Last week I heard live Turangalîla for the first time. Experience was interesting... I had so much expectations and to my delight thery were mostly justified. I enjoyed especially the slow and very subtle parts of the work, they were just magical. I don't use that word very lightly, but it's hard to describe it differently. After all those stormy, maniac waves of sounds, these little, beatiful, repetitive dances were just... well... magical.


I was at the same concert, if it was the one in Helsinki. I think the performance was really good, Mälkki brought a wonderful clarity to the score and it made a very strong impression on me. Now, if only we could get a performance of _Des canyons aux étoiles..._ or some other big orchestral work! I'm so happy that both evenings of the _Turangalîla_ were sold out - I'm sure Messiaen would be pleased to hear that.


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## Lenny

Janspe said:


> I was at the same concert, if it was the one in Helsinki. I think the performance was really good, Mälkki brought a wonderful clarity to the score and it made a very strong impression on me. Now, if only we could get a performance of _Des canyons aux étoiles..._ or some other big orchestral work! I'm so happy that both evenings of the _Turangalîla_ were sold out - I'm sure Messiaen would be pleased to hear that.


Yes, it was in Helsinki. I bought the ticket actually very early in January and it was already almost full back then. I also hope this success will bring us more Messiaen.


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## PeterFromLA

I witnessed David Robertson lead the St Louis Symphony in "Des canyons aux étoiles..." at Disney Hall in Los Angeles, just last year. It was a terrific event, and I agree about the wonderful calm respite-like movements... in this case the horn solo, "Appel interstellaire," and the magical "Les ressucités et le chant de l'étoile Aldebaran," both captivating beyond words. A mesmerizing experience.


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## PeterFromLA

An aside apropos the discussion about modular thinking in composition: I'm reading Philip Glass's memoir and in it he describes the profound influence that his study of Bruckner's symphonies (while an undergraduate at U of Chicago) had on his approach to orchestral writing, though he didn't appreciate the influence until relatively recently, once he saw his orchestral music so capably performed by the Bruckner Orchestra in Linz, Austria. In fact, he reports discovering that the Austrians trained in Bruckner performed his orchestral music far better than America's musicians did.


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## Der Titan

A wonderfull thread. i have the Emi Box ( 14 CDs) some years ago. I listened to the Turangila symphony - a wonderfull work - and also the organ pieces, sometimes fascinating. But my exploration stopped. I will use this thread as a guide for my box to give Messiaen new attention.


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## SiegendesLicht

Der Titan said:


> A wonderfull thread. i have the Emi Box ( 14 CDs) some years ago. I listened to the Turangila symphony - a wonderfull work - and also the organ pieces, sometimes fascinating. But my exploration stopped. I will use this thread as a guide for my box to give Messiaen new attention.


Der Titan, if you enjoy the Turangalila symphony and since you are a Hamburger too, you might be interested in this:

https://www.elbphilharmonie.de/en/whats-on/turangalila-gustav-mahler-jugendorchester/8342

A live performance by the Gustav Mahler Jugendorchester (conductor Ingo Metzmacher). I was thinking about going myself, but the symphony does not appeal to me all that much. Although the website says "sold out", it is never completely sold out, I am sure there will be a ticket for you. And if not, it is also going to be broadcast live on a big screen in front of the concert hall.


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## SiegendesLicht

^ I have just read a review of that performance on my favorite classical blog klassik-begeistert.de and really wished I had been there *sigh*... Supposedly it was at least as epic as Mahler.


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## R3PL4Y

I feel guilty for saying this, but Turangalila is rather low on my list of favorite Messiaen pieces. In some ways, it feels like he is trying to emulate more tonal music rather than embracing the concepts that define so much of his later music.


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## St Matthew

R3PL4Y said:


> I feel guilty for saying this, but Turangalila is rather low on my list of favorite Messiaen pieces. In some ways, it feels like he is trying to emulate more tonal music rather than embracing the concepts that define so much of his later music.


This is my opinion too.

Quatuor pour la fin du temps and Turangalila are great pieces but far from Messiaen's best and most representative of his works (which there are many better works in his catalogue).

Des canyons aux étoiles and Éclairs sur l'au-delà, that's without even getting to Oiseaux exotiques and Catalogue d'oiseaux.

And even after that, there are late masterpieces like La Transfiguration de Notre Seigneur Jésus-Christ and Et exspecto resurrectionem mortuorum....which is without mentioning his opera Saint-François d'Assise :lol:


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## tdc

Messiaen is a composer I've struggled with in the past but some stuff I do like, Tchaik6 recently posted this in another thread and its become something I quite like:

La Nativite du Seigneur





I find the varied use of organ sounds quite tasteful, unique, colorful even psychedelic. The last section of the first movement features an excellent vibrating chord effect I just love, and haven't really heard before in other music at least used in this way. It has this other dimensional feel for me something similar I experience with the middle movement of Bartok's PC no. 2.

His use of harmony sounds fresh yet in a way kind of simultaneously ancient in this work, at times this music doesn't seem too far removed to me from some medieval and/or renaissance pre-tonal music.


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## Guest

The Messiaen organ works are very overwhelming and they tranport you in a universe were you can hear all kinds of influences and the effect is indeed often psychedelic,an effect of the intrinsic beauty wich transports you to a higher plane.
Very rewarding to explore.


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## Tchaikov6

tdc said:


> Messiaen is a composer I've struggled with in the past but some stuff I do like, Tchaik6 recently posted this in another thread and its become something I quite like:
> 
> La Nativite du Seigneur
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I find the varied use of organ sounds quite tasteful, unique, colorful even psychedelic. The last section of the first movement features an excellent vibrating chord effect I just love, and haven't really heard before in other music at least used in this way. It has this other dimensional feel for me something similar I experience with the middle movement of Bartok's PC no. 2.
> 
> His use of harmony sounds fresh yet in a way kind of simultaneously ancient in this work, at times this music doesn't seem too far removed to me from some medieval and/or renaissance pre-tonal music.


I'm glad you are enjoying this amazing piece as well!

I completely agree that is an other-worldly feel almost.


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## Heliogabo

Traverso said:


> The Messiaen organ works are very overwhelming and they tranport you in a universe were you can hear all kinds of influences and the effect is indeed often psychedelic,an effect of the intrinsic beauty wich transports you to a higher plane.
> Very rewarding to explore.


Totally agreed. I prefer this works played by Messiaen himself. Quite revelatory performances in the sense you has pointed out.


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## Chatellerault

tdc said:


> I find the varied use of organ sounds quite tasteful, unique, colorful even psychedelic. The last section of the first movement features an excellent vibrating chord effect I just love, and haven't really heard before in other music at least used in this way. It has this other dimensional feel for me something similar I experience with the middle movement of Bartok's PC no. 2.


There is also a truly dimensional (not other dimensional, I'd say) and spacial character in organ music played in big spaces such as Notre-Dame de Paris (Latry's recording of the complete works) and Beauvais Cathedral (Jennifer Bate's recordings, which Messiaen himself praised highly).

Especially the pauses, when you hear the echo and decaying of sounds for a few seconds, are truly wonderful. It has nothing to do with the 'dry' atmosphere of a concert hall and, while Messiaen's organ works can also be played in the Concergebouw Amsterdam or Philharmonie de Paris, they really belong in big churches.



tdc said:


> His use of harmony sounds fresh yet in a way kind of simultaneously ancient in this work, at times this music doesn't seem too far removed to me from some medieval and/or renaissance pre-tonal music.


[Religious] music must necessarily be uniform, limited to certain subjects, with a rather outdated style and language? No, no, a thousand times no! The religious subject encompasses all subjects: it is God and His entire creation. The religious subject is alive, it deals with the living God, man living by grace, man rising from the dead after Christ's rebirth. As for language, it is clear that in order to be "true" it must remain the current and original expression of an age and a personality. Without making tabula rasa of the past, we must see the present and scrutinize the future. If great feelings change little, their expression is constantly renewed. Let us be new, let us enter the chain, but without attaching ourselves particularly to this or that chain of the past. The creators of fake Bach will never make a lasting and "true" work.
(Messiaen's words in an article from 1939, my translation from the French)

While searching for an original language, and in a certain way immersed in the French traditions of Debussy, Ravel, Dukas and Dupré, Messiaen borrows mostly from two sources: medieval plainsong and birdsong.

Examples of birdsong in his organ works: 4th mvt. from Messe de la Pentecôte, 4th mvt. from Livre d'Orgue, 7th mvt. from Méditations sur la Trinité...

Examples of plain-chant: 2th mvt. from Méditations sur la Trinité, 1st mvt. from Les Corps Glorieux...


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## Guest

_There is also a truly dimensional (not other dimensional, I'd say) and spacial character in organ music played in big spaces such as Notre-Dame de Paris (Latry's recording of the complete works) and Beauvais Cathedral (Jennifer Bate's recordings, which Messiaen himself praised highly).

Especially the pauses, when you hear the echo and decaying of sounds for a few seconds, are truly wonderful. It has nothing to do with the 'dry' atmosphere of a concert hall and, while Messiaen's organ works can also be played in the Concergebouw Amsterdam or Philharmonie de Paris, they really belong in big churches._

I absolutely agree with this!! The acoustic properties of these informs the compositions themselves. I have heard them in these venues and came instantly to that conclusion. I have Messiaen's organ works, influenced as you say by plainchant and birdsong. At first they interested me but I'm afraid my attention has waned over the years because I prefer the rigour of counterpoint, structure and style and these days I listen more to Haydn and Beethoven, Schubert and Brahms, Debussy and Ravel - and also baroque music - than anything else. So, the more modern works like that of Messiaen, for me, have mostly lost their charm.


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## Chatellerault

Next month I'll be able to watch English pianist Peter Donohoe play the complete _20 regards sur l'enfant-Jesus_... Almost 2 hours of complex, highly mystic piano playing.

Anyone here ever heard it live? I've listened to recordings but of course it's not the same thing


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## SiegendesLicht

Just dug this up for the esteemed TC audience's enjoyment:






Turangalila Symphony, the Elphi, the Gustav Mahler Youth Orchestra and the charismatic conductor Ingo Metzmacher.

It does sound epic, yes. But the inner logic of this music still continues to escape me.


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## gustavdimitri

thanks for the tip ! 

I have this edition:


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## DavidA

gustavdimitri said:


> thanks for the tip !
> 
> I have this edition:


Not my sort of music I'm afraid. I gave mine away


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## gustavdimitri

It's good not everybody loves the same music... would be boring eh?


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## DavidA

gustavdimitri said:


> It's good not everybody loves the same music... would be boring eh?


Yes of course. One man's meat .... and all that


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## Heliogabo

Knew a french girl, who played the organ in a church.
-Do you like Messiaen? I asked.
-il est Dieu (he's God), she said. With a smile in her face.


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## starthrower

seven four said:


> I really connected with the piano music, the pipe organ too. I own the Messiaen Edition and a few other things.


For any interested parties, Presto Classical has an incredible price on the DG Complete Edition at 87.50 US dollars.


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## Capeditiea

,,,i still have troubles spelling his name correctly...


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## millionrainbows

My favorite Messiaen is "Et Exspecto…" because when I first heard it, it reminded me of Frank Zappa's music.


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## starthrower

millionrainbows said:


> My favorite Messiaen is "Et Exspecto…"


Mine too, but most of the time I prefer his non-orchestral music. Anyone who likes organ music ought to look into the box sets by Jennifer Bate or Oliver Latry. And if you like historical recordings there's the EMI 4 CD set of Messiaen playing his own works.


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## BHKraft

The composer revised his _Turangalîla-Symphonie_ (1948) in 1990. I prefer the first revised version recording supervised by Messiaen and conducted by Myung-whun Chung to earlier recordings. Is there another recording of the revised version since then that is outstanding?


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## Krummhorn

starthrower said:


> . . . Anyone who likes organ music ought to look into the box sets by Jennifer Bate or Oliver Latry . . .


I have those sets. Absolutely thrilling to listen to late at night in almost total darkness.


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## Trout

I'm super excited to have the opportunity to see one of my favorite pieces, the _Turangalila-Symphonie_, in concert next weekend! It will be accompanied by with the U.S. premiere of Saariaho's _Trans_ for harp and orchestra. Susanna Mälkki will conduct the LA Philharmonic with Jean-Yves Thibaudet playing the piano.


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## Trout

Trout said:


> I'm super excited to have the opportunity to see one of my favorite pieces, the _Turangalila-Symphonie_, in concert next weekend! It will be accompanied by with the U.S. premiere of Saariaho's _Trans_ for harp and orchestra. Susanna Mälkki will conduct the LA Philharmonic with Jean-Yves Thibaudet playing the piano.


Wow, it's been several hours and I'm still coming down from that Turangalila high. That might be the most memorable concert-going experiences of my (admittedly young) life. At least until I attend a live concert performance of _Music for 18 Musicians_! There's just no feeling of ecstasy quite like Messiaen's manic unbridled exuberance. The performance was excellent too. Watching Mälkki conduct made me realize exactly how rhythmically complex the piece is as it was influenced from the patterns of Indian tala. The ondes martenot was a real treat to experience live, though my one small complaint was that it was a bit too shrill in its upper register (especially in some of those glissandos that introduce the statue theme in the first movement). But perhaps that is how Messiaen intended it to be.


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## Red Terror

starthrower said:


> Mine too, but most of the time I prefer his non-orchestral music. Anyone who likes organ music ought to look into the box sets by Jennifer Bate or Oliver Latry. And if you like historical recordings there's the EMI 4 CD set of Messiaen playing his own works.


I own two sets: Latry and Ericsson. What do you think of the latter?


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## philoctetes

I've immersed myself in these lately. I've always liked the composer but I had to hear others. I have the composer, Bate, and most of Colin Andrews in my collection, also access to Weir and Ericsson on Spotify. Also familiar with Innig but I've completely avoided Latry.

I've been won over by Andrews, even on the gnarly Livre d'Orgue and Meditations. Innig is not bad with Livre d'Orgue but lacks mystery on the others. Weir is harsh and rhythmically irregular. Nothing wrong with Bate but murky sound... so Andrews, the composer, and Ericsson would be my top three right now.


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## starthrower

Red Terror said:


> I own two sets: Latry and Ericsson. What do you think of the latter?


I don't have the Ericsson set.


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## philoctetes

I rarely download but the Bate was on Amazon complete for $10 so I recently scooped it up. But I like the Andrews more.


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## jeramboquai

I am trying to decide between the following two Messiaen box sets: the 25-disc Warner set and the 32-disc DG set. Would anybody care to suggest which one to pick? Does the comprehensiveness of the DG set make it the one to get? In other words, are the additional works that it has over the smaller set worth its choice? I know it includes his opera, but what if I do not care for opera?


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## Bourdon

jeramboquai said:


> I am trying to decide between the following two Messiaen box sets: the 25-disc Warner set and the 32-disc DG set. Would anybody care to suggest which one to pick? Does the comprehensiveness of the DG set make it the one to get? In other words, are the additional works that it has over the smaller set worth its choice? I know it includes his opera, but what if I do not care for opera?


Don't forget this one










I have the warner set wich is just fine and includes the recordings Messiaen made for ( organ)
The opera is something special

I don't have the DG box only the opera wich I listened to last year.
I think the DG box is also a good choice.


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## flamencosketches

Bump for a great composer...

Messiaen's music is all birds and Jesus and nature and apocalypse. I find him very accessible, and also very challenging at the same time. His music is totally fascinating to me and completely individual in sound, much like Debussy before him. I have heard very few pieces of his yet but I'm confident that I could identify one of his works within the first few bars. I've ordered a couple of CDs of his piano music and I really look forward to hearing more of it. I am not a big organ guy but I would like to hear some of his organ music.

What are some of our favorite Messiaen pieces? The famous Quatuor pour la fin du temps is one of the greatest works of the century, I think, if not all time. The story behind its composition is completely fascinating. Messiaen once said, I believe, that the only people who will ever truly understand the Quatuor were those who were in attendance at the premiere, in a Nazi POW camp in light winter time rain. Despite this, there have obviously been some amazing interpretations by other musicians. A friend here recently showed this one to me:









I wish I could find a youtube link so I could share some of the music, but I'll say to any curious party that it's well worth your purchase.

This is another fascinating performance. Another user here put me onto this:






I have yet to buy Mr. Ugorski's recording of this massive work on CD, but I will eventually.

I'm still very new to Messiaen music, but what I've heard is fascinating and completely different from anything else I've ever heard. Anyone been listening lately?


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## Guest

I find myself not to interested in Messiaen's spirituality or the bird stuff. I get into the wonderful sonorities you come across in his music. That applies to orchestral works and organ works. "Apparition de l'eglies eternelle" for organ is an astonishing work for it's harmonies and control of dissonance. Just when you think it can't get more intense, it does. I'm not to concerned about what sort of apparition Messiaen had in mind. It sounds great. Marie-Claire made a great recording of the piece. I'm sure there are many other great recordings. What organist can resist this piece?


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## flamencosketches

Wow, what a fascinating piece. Thanks for the heads up. Like I said I'm not an organ guy but Messiaen's music makes me want to reconsider that.


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## flamencosketches

What did the parishioners of Messiaen's church think when hearing this fascinating, otherworldly organ music for the first time? Surely this is not exactly what they'd been expecting...?


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## Janspe

I'm very fond of Messiaen's organ music and I think it is the most important part of his entire oeuvre. The Latry set is the one I've been listening to, but I probably should explore other interpretations as well...

One of my personal favourites is the stunning _Oiseaux exotiques_ for piano and a small orchestra. It really left an impression that later developed into a great love affair with Messiaen's music. There are so many great works by this composer, all well worth exploring.


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## starthrower

flamencosketches said:


> What did the parishioners of Messiaen's church think when hearing this fascinating, otherworldly organ music for the first time? Surely this is not exactly what they'd been expecting...?


I don't know? But it's about the only thing that would motivate me to go to church every week! But I believe it's always been true that some of the best musicians in any city are in the churches whether they are playing the organ or singing black gospel music.


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## NLAdriaan

Unwise decision to join another offensive derailed Wagner/religion discussion, but fortunately here you won't find these guys, as Messiaen obviously has a more devoted base. I love his music and feel the true spirit in it, love and the positive side of religion. I love the Latry organ box and heard him once in a live Messiaen organ concert. Fortunately the great organ of the Notre Dame (on which Latry recorded it) was saved in the fire.


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## flamencosketches

Yeah, I am totally in awe of this man's organ music. It is beyond words. So insanely heavy, some of it is just crushing. Yet it's all so meditative that I could listen to it for hours. I love what I've heard of the Latry recordings, which seem to emphasize these meditative qualities. But I have also been listening to some recordings by the English organist Jennifer Bate, who studied under Messiaen for years and was very close to him. I highly recommend these recordings to any fan of Messiaen. The box set is out of print, I believe, but worth seeking out I think (haven't heard all of it, but what I have heard is great). That being said I may go for the Latry box set as a first priority for price reasons, and I do really like what I've heard.

The Turangalîla-Symphonie is also immense. I recently picked up the Ozawa/Toronto recording with the Loriod sisters. I think it's a work that is both accessible and also daunting. I wonder why Messiaen's student Pierre Boulez had such bad things to say about this work.


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## millionrainbows

Messiaen was not just a Catholic, but a _mystic_ Catholic, so his religion is so much cooler than regular religion. You can have visions and stuff! This adds to the possibilities of imagining stuff while listening. I bet "Alex" of _A Clockwork Orange _would have dug it.


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## mikeh375

NLAdriaan said:


> Unwise decision to join another offensive derailed Wagner/religion discussion, but fortunately here you won't find these guys, as Messiaen obviously has a more devoted base. I love his music and feel the true spirit in it, love and the positive side of religion. I love the Latry organ box and heard him once in a live Messiaen organ concert. Fortunately the great organ of the Notre Dame (on which Latry recorded it) was saved in the fire.


I actually met him at my alma mater when he was invited to sit in residence for a week of concerts in the composer festival series. Just a handshake, but that's all I needed. I've loved his work for decades now and still find inspiration in his additive rhythmic practices.

EDIT...sorry NLA, I mis-read your post, you meant Latry I thought you meant Messiaen...my bad.


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## Bourdon

flamencosketches said:


> Yeah, I am totally in awe of this man's organ music. It is beyond words. So insanely heavy, some of it is just crushing. Yet it's all so meditative that I could listen to it for hours. I love what I've heard of the Latry recordings, which seem to emphasize these meditative qualities. But I have also been listening to some recordings by the English organist Jennifer Bate, who studied under Messiaen for years and was very close to him. I highly recommend these recordings to any fan of Messiaen. The box set is out of print, I believe, but worth seeking out I think (haven't heard all of it, but what I have heard is great). That being said I may go for the Latry box set as a first priority for price reasons, and I do really like what I've heard.
> 
> The Turangalîla-Symphonie is also immense. I recently picked up the Ozawa/Toronto recording with the Loriod sisters. I think it's a work that is both accessible and also daunting. *I wonder why Messiaen's student Pierre Boulez had such bad things to say* about this work.


*Well read this,he is human after all*

Pierre Boulez

The family home was a big influence in Pierre Boulez's life, although there was no music making in it. Admiring his father, an engineer, the young Boulez even started to study mathematics. This was during the Second World War. The years spent in occupied Lyon left a lasting impression on Boulez's later oeuvre. Suffice it to say that the composer never appreciated transcendental, emotional music, as he associated it with works used by totalitarian systems for propaganda purposes.

It was not hard to be blacklisted by Boulez. In his book The Rest is Noise the critic Alex Ross calls Boulez a bully, an opinion with which the Frenchman agreed. The composer did not shy away from criticising his peers and masters. He did not respect the minimalists, considering their music to be insignificant and boring. He called Cage trivial and did not think that Britten deserved to be called a composer. Irritated by Shostakovich's popularity, he sneered that the Russian's music was "the third pressing of Mahler". Stravinsky's neoclassical oeuvre was a dead end for him. Speaking of opera, Boulez claimed that the best response to the stagnation of the genre would to "blow opera houses up". Such radicalism attracted young composers, who eagerly listened to the Frenchman's advice. Boulez liked to be with them, because - as he admitted in his characteristic style - he explored their ideas to steal the best ones.


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## mikeh375

Boulez...the French Correction (or Mr Bootlace) as he was known to English Musos.


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## mikeh375

flamencosketches said:


> ........... I wonder why Messiaen's student Pierre Boulez had such bad things to say about this work.


More to the point FlamencoS, what kind of brothel plays music like that for its clients?????....:lol:


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## starthrower

I grabbed a used copy of the Jennifer Bate set several years back before the price went through the roof. I never did pick up the Latry box.

I passed on the Boulez DG box. I seem to get very little out of his music. If you're not in a big hurry to buy some of this stuff, check Presto Classical site during the Christmas season. They have huge discounts on box sets. I was tempted to pick up the complete Messiaen set on DG but I already own several titles.

I can't say I'm in love with all of Messiaen's works. I've made several attempts to listen to his opera but I find it to be a terminal bore. And the birdsong stuff doesn't interest me either.


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## Littlephrase

starthrower said:


> I can't say I'm in love with all of Messiaen's works. I've made several attempts to listen to his opera but I find it to be a terminal bore. And the birdsong stuff doesn't interest me either.


I love a great deal of Messiaen's work, but even then _Saint François _still terrifies me. I can easily sit through five hours of Wagner, but Messiaen? I'm not sure.


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## starthrower

I wish it were terrifying. Maybe I just don't have the patience? But I don't find it very interesting.

There aren't an awful lot of contemporary operas that I can enjoy, but I find Schnittke's Life With An Idiot a much more stimulating experience.


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## Guest

mikeh375 said:


> More to the point FlamencoS, what kind of brothel plays music like that for its clients?????....:lol:


The kind that Pierre Boulez frequents, I assume. :lol:


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## millionrainbows

starthrower said:


> I wish it were terrifying. Maybe I just don't have the patience? But I don't find it very interesting.


Some people are too unaware to be in awe of God.


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## philoctetes

When a well-tuned Messiaen performance hits the soft spot of a receptive ear, the effect can be truly "celestial"...

Interesting to note that some younger avant-garde jazzers are hip to Messiaen, bridging the gap a little between his music and Sun Ra's...


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## starthrower

millionrainbows said:


> Some people are too unaware to be in awe of God.


Whatever? But I was referring to the music.


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## millionrainbows

starthrower said:


> Whatever? But I was referring to the music.


Well, the music is supposed to sound somewhat "scary" to evoke the fear and awe of supposedly being in the presence of God. If we accept that, we have understood a lot about Messiaen.

Even if you are not "terrified," you should understand that this is one of Messiaen's intents, to evoke "fear and awe" of God.

I don't think it's good to "objectify" the music and separate it from the composer's intention, whether we believe it or not. I think you should go ahead and "try" to be terrified, not separate yourself from it.

If you are a non-believer, and this is an obstacle, I suggest listening to Messiaen on peyote or mushrooms. It's no obstacle for me.

You need to listen to Messiaen with much less "ego."

In other words, *get down on your knees and humble yourself before the almighty!

*Just sayin'...


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## starthrower

I don't find any music scary. It's just organized notes, sounds, and rhythm. As far as belief in "God" is concerned, that is a complicated issue where one needs to define their terms. Not a subject to be discussed in this thread. But composers do what they do in their unique styles regardless of any religious connotations. It can all sound very different whether it be Bach, Messiaen, Penderecki, or anybody else


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## philoctetes

MR is always taking the psycho-spiritual angle when someone doesn't appreciate one of his modern idols, like Cage or Messiaen. It's always be more zen, have less ego, open you mind, yada yada, be more like MR believes himself to be, more so than you could ever be, yada yada, which is why he is so insulting to other members. 

And ST is right, the music itself, whether how it's composed, or how we respond to it, is often quite distant from these considerations. If anything, I find this tendency to assign external "meaning" to music can be an egotistical exercise in itself. It's not that MR doesn't experience something meaningful, it's expecting others to appreciate the same experience on his wishy-washy terms, while they may be having their own moments of ecstasy listening to Mozart or whatever.

I prefer to read MR's theoretical discussions, in fact I enjoy them a lot. But his favorite music is not an excuse to get under someone else's skin about their mental attitudes and spiritual health. For me those are fighting words and why MR gets in so many fights.


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## philoctetes

Also, I have no idea how "fear" can be an objective of Messiaen's. How scary can an oriole be anyway?


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## starthrower

I haven't written off Messiaen's opera just yet. It's a huge work which I will return to occasionally. Probably in winter when the weather requires staying in the house for an entire afternoon and evening. The release I've been enjoying the most over the past couple years is this disc of short pieces.


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## millionrainbows

starthrower said:


> I don't find any music scary. It's just organized notes, sounds, and rhythm. As far as belief in "God" is concerned, that is a complicated issue where one needs to define their terms. Not a subject to be discussed in this thread. But composers do what they do in their unique styles regardless of any religious connotations. It can all sound very different whether it be Bach, Messiaen, Penderecki, or anybody else


You're not really entering in to art, then. You're just a dabbler. "Belief" doesn't apply; I'm talking direct mystical experience.


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## millionrainbows

philoctetes said:


> MR is always taking the psycho-spiritual angle when someone doesn't appreciate one of his modern idols, like Cage or Messiaen. It's always be more zen, have less ego, open you mind, yada yada, be more like MR believes himself to be, more so than you could ever be, yada yada, which is why he is so insulting to other members.
> 
> And ST is right, the music itself, whether how it's composed, or how we respond to it, is often quite distant from these considerations. If anything, I find this tendency to assign external "meaning" to music can be an egotistical exercise in itself. It's not that MR doesn't experience something meaningful, it's expecting others to appreciate the same experience on his wishy-washy terms, while they may be having their own moments of ecstasy listening to Mozart or whatever.
> 
> I prefer to read MR's theoretical discussions, in fact I enjoy them a lot. But his favorite music is not an excuse to get under someone else's skin about their mental attitudes and spiritual health. For me those are fighting words and why MR gets in so many fights.


This is detached, objectified, despiritualized hogwash.


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## millionrainbows

philoctetes said:


> Also, I have no idea how "fear" can be an objective of Messiaen's. How scary can an oriole be anyway?


That's a pitiful attempt at invalidation. We all know we're talking about the music which concerns the mystic and spiritual, i.e. 
religious.

Go sit in the corner, philocetes.


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## PeterFromLA

Only once, in all my concert going life, have I seen an audience collectively in tears by the end of a work's performance. That was when I saw a performance of the Quatuor pour la fin du temps by a makeshift ensemble inside a Catholic church. It was really remarkable. The composer was still alive at the time; I wish he could have been there to see it.


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## philoctetes

millionrainbows said:


> That's a pitiful attempt at invalidation. We all know we're talking about the music which concerns the mystic and spiritual, i.e.
> religious.
> 
> Go sit in the corner, philocetes.


I prefer to sit on your feet.


----------



## NLAdriaan

mikeh375 said:


> I actually met him at my alma mater when he was invited to sit in residence for a week of concerts in the composer festival series. Just a handshake, but that's all I needed. I've loved his work for decades now and still find inspiration in his additive rhythmic practices.
> 
> EDIT...sorry NLA, I mis-read your post, you meant Latry I thought you meant Messiaen...my bad.


Well, having met the composer Messiaen in person is quite a different ballpark than having heard an interpreter live Interesting how relatively 'small' things in life have such a great impact. Congratulations!


----------



## NLAdriaan

PeterFromLA said:


> Only once, in all my concert going life, have I seen an audience collectively in tears by the end of a work's performance. That was when I saw a performance of the Quatuor pour la fin du temps by a makeshift ensemble inside a Catholic church. It was really remarkable. The composer was still alive at the time; I wish he could have been there to see it.


I can recommend a recent recording of the QPLFDT, might as well have a moving effect on the listener, as it does with me:


----------



## NLAdriaan

millionrainbows said:


> Well, the music is supposed to sound somewhat "scary" to evoke the fear and awe of supposedly being in the presence of God. If we accept that, we have understood a lot about Messiaen.
> 
> Even if you are not "terrified," you should understand that this is one of Messiaen's intents, to evoke "fear and awe" of God.
> 
> I don't think it's good to "objectify" the music and separate it from the composer's intention, whether we believe it or not. I think you should go ahead and "try" to be terrified, not separate yourself from it.
> 
> If you are a non-believer, and this is an obstacle, I suggest listening to Messiaen on peyote or mushrooms. It's no obstacle for me.
> 
> You need to listen to Messiaen with much less "ego."
> 
> In other words, *get down on your knees and humble yourself before the almighty!
> 
> *Just sayin'...


I am a believer myself, although critically opposed to the narcist interpretation of religion by many (semi-)religious institutions and their fundamentalist followers.

I agree with you that it is merely ego (and power) that gives a bad taste to religion. However, exactly the worldly institutions are IMO using fear to suppress the average followers, as they pocket God and use their own interpretation to define what people are allowed to do, as if they are closer to God.

Messiaen, as you say, looks from a mystic and natural perspective. I must disagree with your idea that mystic religion would use fear and would intend to be scary. Quite the opposite. I think/believe that religion is an individual tie from each and everyone with the God within. This is not about an ego somewhere on a cloud, it all is up to your own ego. The good thing is that no one else on earth can interfere, no pope, no Ayatollah, no fundamentalist Christian, no congregation. So, all moral/religious judgments by others are worthless, null and void.

It is crucial that God is easily accessible, no fear involved. And Messiaen's music, like other mystical means, is just a perfect companion.

If you don't have any religious awareness at all or a different, fearful one, the music of Messiaen might not connect. If you need mushrooms to connect to Messiaen, as you suggest, it would be interesting to find out if you have a suppressed, hidden religious awareness after all :angel:, or that you would think Motorhead or Public Enemy make mystical music too, in which case you are lost:devil:


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## PeterFromLA

In some of Messiaen's works, there are definitely moments that are meant to inspire awe; I think of those works and movements as monument-like, entities of such grandeur that we can only marvel in their presence. Et exspecto resurrectionem mortuorum is one such work, but there are many more besides.


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## mikeh375

NLAdriaan said:


> I am a believer myself, although critically opposed to the narcist interpretation of religion by many (semi-)religious institutions and their fundamentalist followers.
> 
> I agree with you that it is merely ego (and power) that gives a bad taste to religion. However, exactly the worldly institutions are IMO using fear to suppress the average followers, as they pocket God and use their own interpretation to define what people are allowed to do, as if they are closer to God.
> 
> Messiaen, as you say, looks from a mystic and natural perspective. I must disagree with your idea that mystic religion would use fear and would intend to be scary. Quite the opposite. I think/believe that religion is an individual tie from each and everyone with the God within. This is not about an ego somewhere on a cloud, it all is up to your own ego. The good thing is that no one else on earth can interfere, no pope, no Ayatollah, no fundamentalist Christian, no congregation. So, all moral/religious judgments by others are worthless, null and void.
> 
> It is crucial that God is easily accessible, no fear involved. And Messiaen's music, like other mystical means, is just a perfect companion.
> 
> If you don't have any religious awareness at all or a different, fearful one, the music of Messiaen might not connect. If you need mushrooms to connect to Messiaen, as you suggest, it would be interesting to find out if you have a suppressed, hidden religious awareness after all :angel:, or that you would think Motorhead or Public Enemy make mystical music too, in which case you are lost:devil:


I'm not a believer in man made dogma so much, nor particularly in a God with a vested interest in our species. That being said, I do get Messiaen (and love his work). One can appreciate the sentiment and suspend disbelief whilst listening (respectfully of course) and I have the added bonus that I understand his music at a technical level which also speaks to me along with the emotion.
Music (like synaesthesia too) is as individual to the listener as a God might be and it often needs no external stimuli in order for me to be moved by it.


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## flamencosketches

Maybe I should have expected that this thread would get a little thorny... 

As long as we can all get along and remain in awe with the music. I don't know if speaking critically on one another's beliefs and spirituality is conducive to a greater enjoyment of Messiaen's music. Of course, it's very hard to even talk about his music without talking about spirituality and the divine, because that's damn near all there is to it. 

I listened to the full Quatuor last night, just on headphones in my room, and I was moved to tears by the end of it. I can hardly even imagine seeing it live, though it's on my bucket list now. 

... does anyone else feel like Messiaen's music is just about the exact opposite to that of his student, Pierre Boulez? That, or they are two sides to the same coin...


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## mikeh375

Can't see any thorniness FlamencoS and none intended anyway.... just alternate views.


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## starthrower

I don't hear Boulez and Messiaen as two sides of the same coin musically or philosophically. They seem like two very different people.

And to assume a listener is unaware of spirituality, religion, or whatever you want to call it because they are a bit underwhelmed by a piece of music is being just a bit judgemental I would think.

If Messiaen's opera had a secular title and subject but the same music, would the unfair assertion be made by a pious individual towards the unmoved listener? Does the pious churchgoer love every tune in the hymnal? This is truly a silly prejudice concerning matters of taste.


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## millionrainbows

Boulez and Messiaen are both cut from the same mold, only manifest differently. They are both :"monks" devoted selflessly to their art. Don't you know that yet?


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## starthrower

millionrainbows said:


> Boulez and Messiaen are both cut from the same mold, only manifest differently. They are both :"monks" devoted selflessly to their art. Don't you know that yet?


The fact that they were devoted to music goes without saying. And please drop the condescending attitude.


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## flamencosketches

mikeh375 said:


> Can't see any thorniness FlamencoS and none intended anyway.... just alternate views.


I wasn't referring to your post. I respect the objective tone you took in presenting your own view.


----------



## starthrower

millionrainbows said:


> You're not really entering in to art, then. You're just a dabbler. "Belief" doesn't apply; I'm talking direct mystical experience.


You're talking your own experience, or what you presume every listener should experience. It always has to be your way or the highway. This is not spirituality. I am not a dabbler. I'm a devoted music lover from the age of 8 years old. I don't need to dance around like Sufi monk to get caught up in the music.


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## philoctetes

Anybody ever notice that discussing mysticism is destructive to the topic? It's like observing a quantum state and destroying its coherence.


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## millionrainbows

philoctetes said:


> Anybody ever notice that discussing mysticism is destructive to the topic? It's like observing a quantum state and destroying its coherence.


It only "destroys" it because _You Can't Handle Mysticism. _This is Western music, not pop or jazz, and its very roots are mystic. My advice: Get Mystic Now!


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## starthrower

millionrainbows said:


> Get Mystic Now!


Do you sell T-shirts?


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## philoctetes

We now have the complete image: shaved head, robe, candles, bhagavagita, sleeping in airports, bloody knuckles from door knocking... the deprogramming didn't stick...


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## millionrainbows

starthrower said:


> Do you sell T-shirts?


My "Get Mystic" course is only $39.95...give it a try!


----------



## millionrainbows

philoctetes said:


> We now have the complete image: shaved head, robe, candles, bhagavagita, sleeping in airports, bloody knuckles from door knocking... the deprogramming didn't stick...


No, this is "Catholic Mystic," which is top button buttoned, Clark Kent haircut, stiff posture, meticulous grooming, highly polished Oxford shoes, baggy drape trousers...


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## starthrower

millionrainbows said:


> My "Get Mystic" course is only $39.95...give it a try!


I only paid 20 for the Messiaen opera!


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## KenOC

millionrainbows said:


> My "Get Mystic" course is only $39.95...give it a try!


I bought MR's course and give it two stars out of five - at most. The box said I'd be enlightened within a week, but it took me almost a month. And the enlightenment wasn't as good as it might be. Yes, there was the Buddha, but needing a shave, lounging against the wall and smoking a cigarette.

I said, "No offense, but all this seems a bit shabby." The Buddha replied, "Naturally. If you want a better enlightenment, you need a better course. Now here's the one I recommend, the only course personally endorsed by me and guaranteeing first class results. And with our easy payment plan…"


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## starthrower

KenOC said:


> The Buddha replied, "Naturally. If you want a better enlightenment, you need a better course. Now here's the one I recommend, the only course personally endorsed by me and guaranteeing first class results. And with our easy payment plan…"


You're not likely to find a Buddha deal from anyone else!


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## philoctetes

millionrainbows said:


> No, this is "Catholic Mystic," which is top button buttoned, Clark Kent haircut, stiff posture, meticulous grooming, highly polished Oxford shoes, baggy drape trousers...


Um, same guy, 40 years later...


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## Blancrocher

I've returned to Messiaen's piano music after years of neglect. I'm mostly just listening to sections of Ugorsky's Catalogue of Birds over and over--I don't know why it didn't click with me before, but I suppose that now the time was just right. 

I intend to get Austbo's comparatively inexpensive recording next for comparison purposes.


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## Blancrocher

Btw, although I don't believe that watching Youtube clips involving various kinds of birds is the right way to develop an appreciation for Messiaen's music, that is what I am doing.


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## millionrainbows

It strikes me that birds, one of God's creations, represent the spirit; they fly up, halfway between Heaven and Earth.


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## flamencosketches

The "Abyss of birds" from the Quatuor pour le fin du temps is an extremely powerful piece.


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## CnC Bartok

Ignoring the toing and froing about religion and spirituality here (poor Olivier), I have a huge amount of admiration for Messiaen and his music, with a particular focus on the big orchestral pieces, the piano stuff, the organ works.

That said, there is one indisputable masterpiece of his I really do not get. It's the Quartet for the End of Time. I only have one recording, the Barenboim one on DGG, and it just doesn't grab me. I suspect it might be the problem, I hope so.

So please someone recommend me a really involving performance. NLAdriaan's suggestion a couple of pages back is happily noted.

TIA!


----------



## flamencosketches

CnC Bartok said:


> Ignoring the toing and froing about religion and spirituality here (poor Olivier), I have a huge amount of admiration for Messiaen and his music, with a particular focus on the big orchestral pieces, the piano stuff, the organ works.
> 
> That said, there is one indisputable masterpiece of his I really do not get. It's the Quartet for the End of Time. I only have one recording, the Barenboim one on DGG, and it just doesn't grab me. I suspect it might be the problem, I hope so.
> 
> So please someone recommend me a really involving performance. NLAdriaan's suggestion a couple of pages back is happily noted.
> 
> TIA!


Reinbert de Leeuw, Vera Beths, Anner Bylsma, and George Pieterson, on Philips. A phenomenal performance. I suspect the recording with Martin Fröst is probably good too.


----------



## millionrainbows

CnC Bartok said:


> Ignoring the toing and froing about religion and spirituality here (poor Olivier), I have a huge amount of admiration for Messiaen and his music, with a particular focus on the big orchestral pieces, the piano stuff, the organ works. That said, there is one indisputable masterpiece of his I really do not get. It's the Quartet for the End of Time. I only have one recording, the Barenboim one on DGG, and it just doesn't grab me. I suspect it might be the problem, I hope so. So please someone recommend me a really involving performance. NLAdriaan's suggestion a couple of pages back is happily noted. TIA!


I could understand someone requesting recommendations for a good performance, but if the work is not 'gotten' in its basic form, can a different performance do that.? I mean, how different can the Barenboim version be?

Plus, the work is involving on several levels, not just a "moving" or "grabbing" emotionally-driven level. For instance, the solo clarinet in "Abime des oiseaux" is, in my view, supposed to evoke a sense of mystery and awe, not raw emotion as in Romanticism. If there is emotion, it is subdued, and is a subtext rather than being an overt expression.

It seems to me that this Quartet is no different in that respect to the whole of Messiaen's body of work. I don't see Messiaen as a "Romantic" in the conventional sense. He is going after different things: a sense of awe and mystery, but not overt or maudlin emotion.

Perhaps movement 5, "Louange á l'eternité de Jésus" comes closest to overt emotion, because the cello is so expressive (and the movement is about Jesus); but it seems to me that this emotion should come through in any competent performance of the work.

Likewise, the final movement 6, praising Jesus, raised from the dead and immortalized, mirroring our own union with God. This is one reason I don't accept that the religious aspects of Messiaen can be ignored; the content is what drives the musicx to be what it is: evoking awe, or more overt emotion.

Much of the music, involving "angels with legs of fire, announcements of the end of time, the abyss of time," and other "Revelation" type imagery, is not supposed to "move" or "grab your heart" simply on an emotional level; it involves more than that, and it's all wrapped up in religious imagery and beliefs.

I think that difficulty to grasp the piece on a simple, visceral level might be due to cognitive reasons, and a refusal to accept the religious aspects of it.

This is not "just music" without ideas and imagery behind it. It is an expression of Messiaen's Catholic beliefs, and this should not be separated from the experience of the work, as I see it. Although I am not Catholic, I have to "suspend my disbelief" in order to engage with the work; and on some level, this involves a willingness to accept and forget my own paradigm to the degree that it prevents my engagement, and to "believe in" the composer and his music.


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## CnC Bartok

Fair enough, but surely you have heard what could be described as "flat" recordings/performances, or even routine ones? I am not saying that Barenboim's is that, but there have been several works that haven't meant that much to me until that one special performance makes it click - Serkin's Diabelli Variations, Wand's Bruckner 5, Kubelik's Meistersingers. Hickox's VW Pastoral, spring to mind. Religious works or not, ignoring those aspects or not, sometimes a slightly different perspective brings that "Road to Damascus" moment.

Or indeed, I'll be perfectly happy that this is a work that I just won't like, ever. It happens, but I think it's important enough as a piece of music for me to give it a few more tries?


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## Blancrocher

CnC Bartok said:


> Or indeed, I'll be perfectly happy that this is a work that I just won't like, ever. It happens, but I think it's important enough as a piece of music for me to give it a few more tries?


As I mentioned upthread, it basically took years away from the Catalogue d'oiseaux for me to acquire an interest in the work. By comparison with things like the Vingt Regards and Quartet, it sounded kind of "random" to me. Returning to all the works, I feel differently. The Vingt Regards sounds more formally rigid--more positively, for Messiaen, maybe more liturgical?--and the bird music sounds correspondingly more open and eclectically expressive. I find myself preferring listening to the Catalogue d'oiseaux over the others--though they all sound like they're by the same composer; this is something I never expected.

Anyway, with regard to the Quartet: you might try the Tashi recording, which is famous; I currently have and like the Fontenay/Brunner version.


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## millionrainbows

A very good performance. The players seem to understand what this music demands, and it is very effective at creating a sense of mystery and awe. The "being" of the players comes through, as if this music was an expression of their own being and voice, rather than completely scored music. That's the point in classical music, right? I love this cover, too.

What does this music demand? Well, it's not Tchaikovsky, gentlemen.

View attachment 125322


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## millionrainbows

CnC Bartok said:


> Fair enough, but surely you have heard what could be described as "flat" recordings/performances, or even routine ones? I am not saying that Barenboim's is that, but there have been several works that haven't meant that much to me until that one special performance makes it click - Serkin's Diabelli Variations, Wand's Bruckner 5, Kubelik's Meistersingers. Hickox's VW Pastoral, spring to mind. Religious works or not, ignoring those aspects or not, sometimes a slightly different perspective brings that "Road to Damascus" moment.
> 
> Or indeed, I'll be perfectly happy that this is a work that I just won't like, ever. It happens, but I think it's important enough as a piece of music for me to give it a few more tries?


Fair enough, and I agree with your description of "flat" works, or particularly "lively" works which make others seem "flat" by comparison. Maybe Messiaen is not Barenboim's cup of tea, which does not surprise me at all. The Trio Fontenay recording I posted about in Current Listening is a very "lively" and believable performance.


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## millionrainbows

"...Messiaen rightly calls himself a "theological" composer, and that his music aims to make concrete statements of faith rather than evoking vague "religious" feelings." -Aloyse Michaely


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## joen_cph

Blancrocher said:


> As I mentioned upthread, it basically took years away from the Catalogue d'oiseaux for me to acquire an interest in the work. By comparison with things like the Vingt Regards and Quartet, it sounded kind of "random" to me. Returning to all the works, I feel differently. *The Vingt Regards sounds more formally rigid-*-more positively, for Messiaen, maybe more liturgical?--and the bird music sounds correspondingly more open and eclectically expressive. I find myself preferring listening to the Catalogue d'oiseaux over the others--though they all sound like they're by the same composer; this is something I never expected.
> 
> Anyway, with regard to the Quartet: you might try the Tashi recording, which is famous; I currently have and like the Fontenay/Brunner version.


I found Batagov's somewhat emotional or romanticized recording of '20 Regards ...' (does one even hear Rachmaninov ?? ) to be the most satisfying for my own taste.


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## starthrower

millionrainbows said:


> "...Messiaen rightly calls himself a "theological" composer, and that his music aims to make concrete statements of faith rather than evoking vague "religious" feelings." -Aloyse Michaely


Can instrumental music make concrete statements of faith? "Theological composer" sounds awful pretentious. The way I see it, religion, music, creativity, is all a product of the human imagination.


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## joen_cph

starthrower said:


> Can instrumental music make concrete statements of faith? "Theological composer" sounds awful pretentious. The way I see it, religion, music, creativity, is all a product of the human imagination.


I guess you can call him that in the sense of verbalized programmes for his musical works, less so regarding the music itself.


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## Guest

If I recall correctly, his final organ work contained motifs or mottos which referred to specific scriptures. I remember them as a distraction from the musical argument. Sort of like his claims that different passages had different "color" that only he could perceive due to a neurological peculiarity of his.


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## millionrainbows

starthrower said:


> Can instrumental music make concrete statements of faith? "Theological composer" sounds awful pretentious. The way I see it, religion, music, creativity, is all a product of the human imagination.





joen_cph said:


> I guess you can call him that in the sense of verbalized programmes for his musical works, less so regarding the music itself.





Baron Scarpia said:


> If I recall correctly, his final organ work contained motifs or mottos which referred to specific scriptures. I remember them as a distraction from the musical argument. Sort of like his claims that different passages had different "color" that only he could perceive due to a neurological peculiarity of his.


Surely the music is an expression of Messiaen's faith and beliefs, and the "meaning" of the work is tied to that inextricably.

Star thrower, joen_cph, and Baron Scarpia seem to be trying to separate the music from all extra-musical content, and this approach to the work can work on a certain level, as it requires no consideration of any religious content attached to the work;

...but that approach seems to be avoiding an honest acceptance of the work and its author's intent, on its own complete terms.

To approach art on strictly formal terms, as these members seem to want to do, is a rather strict approach of basic elements of sound which are perceivable directly, and leave no room for other considerations which are not directly formally perceived, such as intellectual content, a knowledge of history, context, and other very "human" but non-formalized elements which are all common to human experience, and which might lead us to ask questions, such as:

"Was the artist sincere?"
"What is the artist trying to convey?" 
"How does this art reflect the artist's life, general outlook, or belief system (if applicable)?"

Can we really grasp _the full depth and meaning of an art work_ if we do not take these "extra-musical" non-formal elements into consideration? These extra-musical elements are not formally perceivable, but are assumed by commonality of Human experience. They are universal elements of our shared humanity.


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## starthrower

I don't doubt Messiaen's sincerity. But if I listen to any piece of instrumental music without knowledge of the identity of the composer or titles suggesting religious devotion, I am free to allow the music to inspire my imagination free of association. And for me this in no way is a denial or negation of the composer's intent.


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## KenOC

millionrainbows said:


> ..."Was the artist sincere?"
> "What is the artist trying to convey?"
> "How does this art reflect the artist's life, general outlook, or belief system (if applicable)?"


A listening approach that is at its most toxic, and most deleterious to actually hearing the _music_, with Shostakovich.


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## Guest

millionrainbows said:


> Surely the music is an expression of Messiaen's faith and beliefs, and the "meaning" of the work is tied to that inextricably.


No. Music is an abstract act form. A composer may have a nonmusical idea that inspires the music, and I may sometimes find that it invokes in me the same musical idea, but I may just as well invoke in me a different idea. It is the quality of the music that matters to me.


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## millionrainbows

starthrower said:


> I don't doubt Messiaen's sincerity. But if I listen to any piece of instrumental music without knowledge of the identity of the composer or titles suggesting religious devotion, I am free to allow the music to inspire my imagination free of association. *And for me this in no way is a denial or negation of the composer's intent.*


No, it is not a direct denial or negation, but don't even mention the composer's intent in the same breath as your argument, because your approach in no way takes the composer's intent into consideration. You're just hearing the music and letting it become whatever your imagination makes it, and this has nothing do with the composer's intent. Messiaen called his music a statement of his faith, which apparently you want nothing to do with.


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## millionrainbows

KenOC said:


> A listening approach that is at its most toxic, and most deleterious to actually hearing the _music_, with Shostakovich.


I don't see how people can make this sort of separation, of the artist from his music. Music is an expression of the composer's being and experience, and you make it sound like it's something he just dumped out without thinking about it. Music is being; music is human, is it not? Music is a symbol of our shared humanity, not just an object or "stuff" we can look at dispassionately, unless we want to de-humanize it, and ourselves along with it.

Art is an "object" we can look at, but it is an object which is "charged" with meaning. If we try to totally formalize it, we have missed the point.


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## millionrainbows

Baron Scarpia said:


> No. Music is an abstract art form.


Yes, but it is also more than that. It's an abstract form that is an expression of the composer's being and experience.



> A composer may have a nonmusical idea that inspires the music, and I may sometimes find that it invokes in me the same musical idea, but I may just as well invoke in me a different idea. It is the quality of the music that matters to me.


Don't be completely self-involved, then. The composer's intent and "non-musical" experience and beliefs and ideas, which drove him to the creation of the form is important, too. Art is a two-way street, where the artist "maps" his experience on to our experience, like a template.

You shouldn't completely separate the art object from its origins, intended purposes, and "reasons to be" if you want to truly approach it receptively on its own realistic terms. In some music this is more important, in some music less important, depending on the composer and his intent.

Debussy sounds more like star thrower's cup of tea, since he wants no "agenda" and Debussy's intent seems less agenda-driven than Messiaen's in a certain sense.


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## millionrainbows

KenOC said:


> A listening approach that is at its most *toxic,* and most deleterious to actually hearing the _music_, with Shostakovich.


 I disagree that Shostakovich is "completely innocent" in his music's depictions of events or feelings which derive from his experience as a Soviet citizen and composer. He might deny it, but his music is full of things which can generally be taken to be representative of an atmosphere of fear and terror, even if he denies it. He is what he is, and his music mirrors that.

What's *toxic* is Stalin.


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## starthrower

millionrainbows said:


> No, it is not a direct denial or negation, but don't even mention the composer's intent in the same breath as your argument, because your approach in no way takes the composer's intent into consideration. You're just hearing the music and letting it become whatever your imagination makes it, and this has nothing do with the composer's intent. Messiaen called his music a statement of his faith, which apparently you want nothing to do with.


I do take the composer's intent in to consideration, but I listen to the music on its own terms. I'm at home listening to a record. I'm not listening to Messiaen in church or some other social event. So ultimately the music alone has to pass muster. People listen to music for different reasons. Some folks like a romantic soundtrack for making love, or rock n roll at a party. And maybe others use it to feel closer to God. I prefer to enjoy the music alone detached from any concrete associations. I lose myself in this mysterious abstract art form. Bernstein said the same thing decades ago in one of his TV broadcasts. It's not about the titles or associations. We listen to musical sounds in the air.


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## starthrower

millionrainbows said:


> What's *toxic* is Stalin.


Now that's ten thousand pound red herring! What's toxic is your inability to accept or understand a different point of view from your own. Nobody said music exists separate from the human element. But it can be enjoyed on its own terms without thinking about the composer and what inspired the piece. I don't want to think about anything when I'm listening music because it's a distraction.


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## millionrainbows

starthrower said:


> ...Nobody said music exists separate from the human element. But it can be enjoyed on its own terms without thinking about the composer and what inspired the piece.


I don't think a _more_ _complete_ understanding of any art form is possible without some effort of the listener to "approach" the art, instead of waiting for the art to simply come forth and "wash over" the listener. This is not a complete view. I think that's an incomplete understanding. Your statement is still separating the art from its creator, by speaking of the art "on its own terms" when actually, it is _you _who have decided to listen only to its formal aspects, divorced from any other elements which are not directly perceived.

This formal approach is, I think, somewhat dehumanizing, both to the composer and ourselves, since it creates a curious detachment. Art is human, and is rightly a "meeting of minds" or the soul. Art is social.

Since the advent of recorded music, a curious detachment has crept into our experience of music, where the music is seen as just an object for our consideration. Music used to be something which was inextricably linked to human performance, and was not possible without it. Now, machines, first player pianos & mechanical players, and then recording/playback machines, have changed all of that.



> I don't want to think about anything when I'm listening music because it's a distraction.


It's not possible "not to think" at some basic level of awareness, because you have a brain as well as two ears.
One can have an understanding and awareness of a work, which is an implicit knowledge, which does not distract from the listening experience. I think one can engage in a deeper, more realistic listening experience if one has "done some homework" or has knowledge in some way.

And "knowing something" beforehand about the art can effect our perception of it as well.


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## starthrower

Maybe the term art doesn't always have to be connected to music? What about all of the church music of the renaissance or medieval era created in anonymity? We don't know anything about the composers who created it other than they were providing music for the church or some other function. They may have had other inspirations but were employed by the church, royalty or whomever? The same for traditional/folk music from around the globe. We can assume much of it was connected to some social event or ritual sacred or secular. But it's just something humans have always done because they can. We sing and play among our family and friends or to ourselves.


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## millionrainbows

starthrower said:


> Maybe the term art doesn't always have to be connected to music? What about all of the church music of the renaissance or medieval era created in anonymity? We don't know anything about the composers who created it other than they were providing music for the church or some other function.
> 
> They may have had other inspirations but were employed by the church, royalty or whomever? The same for traditional/folk music from around the globe. We can assume much of it was connected to some social event or ritual sacred or secular.


The purpose may be religious, or social event, or ritual, but those are all universal human concerns. We don't have to know who the specific composer was; the important thing is that we can relate to it on a human level, and if not actually participate, at least empathize with the intent it was created for.


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## philoctetes

"We listen to musical sounds in the air"

The same can be said for speech but we attribute meaning to certain primordial sounds - a scream is not a purr - and the patterns of language that creates words, phrases, etc.

I'm conflicted, on one hand I want to believe that our brains learn these things... but the similarities across races and even species, how sounds affect us, and how we use them, make me consider an "a priori" theory of sonic neurology as well. OTOH I imagine that people respond to their native music differently than outsiders who can enjoy it but maybe "interpret" it differently. 

As they say, there are no mountains in Finland... or are there? I wouldn't know but Sibelius makes me see mountains... 600 years ago I was supposed to see angels, listening to Josquin... then came secular composers setting classical civilization to music, a period which seems very abstract and theoretical to me, devoid of imagery but full of precision and physicality, like architecture. 

Then came the Pastoral, Ma Vlast and La Mer using nature as a visual model... so I can see Messiaen taking his very personal path to his own visual models, aided by synaesthesia, and convolving it with the spiritual zeal of Josquin, bringing angels, birds, rainbows, and all of creation into his soundscape. 

And then came Sun Ra


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## Guest

millionrainbows said:


> Yes, but it is also more than that. It's an abstract form that is an expression of the composer's being and experience.
> 
> Don't be completely self-involved, then. The composer's intent and "non-musical" experience and beliefs and ideas, which drove him to the creation of the form is important, too. Art is a two-way street, where the artist "maps" his experience on to our experience, like a template.
> 
> You shouldn't completely separate the art object from its origins, intended purposes, and "reasons to be" if you want to truly approach it receptively on its own realistic terms. In some music this is more important, in some music less important, depending on the composer and his intent.
> 
> Debussy sounds more like star thrower's cup of tea, since he wants no "agenda" and Debussy's intent seems less agenda-driven than Messiaen's in a certain sense.


Yes, I read the CD booklet (if there is one) and will briefly familiarize myself with the background of a piece, to fulfill my curiosity and get an entry point. But the piece succeeds or doesn't succeed on its merits. A piece that _needs_ the extra-musical background is a weak piece. With a great piece of music you don't need anyone explaining to you what it is "about."


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## starthrower

The intent is obvious. Music is a creative way of communication without using written or spoken language. And there is the aesthetic aspect of simply appreciating the beauty of it. No message needs to be conveyed.


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## Bourdon

Baron Scarpia said:


> Yes, I read the CD booklet (if there is one) and will briefly familiarize myself with the background of a piece, to fulfill my curiosity and get an entry point. But the piece succeeds or doesn't succeed on its merits. I piece that _needs_ the extra-musical background is a weak piece. *With a great piece of music you don't need anyone explaining to you what it is "about."*


*
*

Exactly my thoughts


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## starthrower

philoctetes said:


> "We listen to musical sounds in the air"
> 
> The same can be said for speech but we attribute meaning to certain primordial sounds - a scream is not a purr - and the patterns of language that creates words, phrases, etc.


True. But the meaning in music is ambiguous and abstract.


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## philoctetes

starthrower said:


> The intent is obvious. Music is a creative way of communication without using written or spoken language. And there is the aesthetic aspect of simply appreciating the beauty of it. No message needs to be conveyed.


Communication with no message... I know this is supposed to mean something too, but the words conflict with each other... I'll try suggesting that music could be communicating "messages" that we can't express verbally, so talking about them is doomed to failure.

One could say that music is a fundamental facet of our communication toolbox, that we are more fragmented and isolated without it, and cannot be replaced with speech. In a way this gets into the whole theory of consciousness, language, so-called "qualia", emergent sensations, etc.

I mentioned Sun Ra and it's interesting to note that his disciples are moving toward a classical period of jazz theory and practice... listen to Sorey and Crispell on their new CD, by getting away from visual motives they are expanding their vocabulary to be more about "pure sound" and I think these developments are some of the most exciting in music right now...


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## Guest

starthrower said:


> The intent is obvious. Music is a creative way of communication without using written or spoken language. And there is the aesthetic aspect of simply appreciating the beauty of it. No message needs to be conveyed.


Now we are getting into the subject that has been beaten to death on every one of these boards, but I would say that music does not _communicate_ so much as it _evokes_. The point being the composer may very well create a piece with the intention of embodying a certain emotion or extra-musical idea, but I may listen to the piece and it may evoke in me an entirely different emotion, or another extra-musical idea. The quality of the music is reflected in the intensity of the reaction, not the accuracy in conveying what the composer intended.


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## starthrower

Yes. Music is weird! It "speaks" to me with no message. What's the message in a Frank Zappa guitar improvisation? I don't know? But it connects with me in some fundamental way.


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## millionrainbows

I disagree with most of this to the extent that I see Messiaen as he saw himself: as a theological composer. This is quite different, and far more specialized than a Frank Zappa guitar solo.

If you listen to Messiaen like you listen to Debussy or Frank Zappa, you are missing the point.

I suppose a major disconnect here is that Messiaen's music was in the service of, and a statement of, and was a vehicle for, his beliefs and faith, unlike Debussy, who just wanted to evoke beauty, and the sea, or Zappa, who wanted to transport you with his guitar for musical reasons. Those are simpler, more straightforward aesthetic goals.


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## joen_cph

Well, I remember we have a member here, who describes his experience of Messiaen (say 'Des Canyons aux Etoiles'), as clearly resembling earlier children's cartoon's music.

I think the discussion would benefit from concrete examples of works, including the 'programme' the composer intended, since Messiaen's oeuvre after all is somewhat diverse.


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## Guest

millionrainbows said:


> If you listen to Messiaen like you listen to Debussy or Frank Zappa, you are missing the point.


Please do not instruct us on how to listen to music.


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## millionrainbows

joen_cph said:


> Well, I remember we have a member here, who describes his experience of Messiaen (say 'Des Canyons aux Etoiles'), as clearly resembling children's cartoon's music.


So? Those are just subjective imaginings of a child. What does he know about Messiaen's intent? We all know this is NOT what the music was intended by the composer to be.


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## millionrainbows

Baron Scarpia said:


> Please do not instruct us on how to listen to music.


Then please don't tell me that Messiaen's music is "whatever you want it to be" and expect me to believe that you are correct.
We all know that this music is religious in nature. Apparently you are unwilling to approach the music on the composer's terms.


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## joen_cph

millionrainbows said:


> So? Those are just subjective imaginings of a child. What does he know about Messiaen's intent? We all know this is NOT what the music was intended by the composer to be.


No, but it tells about how a worded, cultural 'education' - and the accept from the listener - is essential for any possible religious or theological intentions to be implemented, more or less successfully, in the listening experience of the music.


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## millionrainbows

joen_cph said:


> No, but it tells about how a worded, cultural 'education' - and the accept from the listener - is essential for any possible religious or theological intentions to be implemented, more or less successfully, in the listening experience of the music.


Then go ahead and listen to Messiaen on mushrooms, if that's what it takes. :lol:

Yes, art is a "civilized game." All art is "universally approachable" to some degree, though. This is because we are all human. But for a "proper" grasp of Messiaen, which goes beyond the ability to have sex and eat, you need to know that he is a theological composer.


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## starthrower

Million, have a beer or a cup of tea and chill. Everybody can enjoy music in the way that suits them.


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## Guest

Of course I am aware that Messiaen's work was inspired by theological ideas. What concerns me is whether these ideas motivated him to create great music. In many cases it did. His motivation is his concern, not mine.


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## Mandryka

I’ve got an idea about Messiaen. I think in the bird catalogue, the text stands to the music a bit like the words stand to piece of lyrical music, You can listen to Dichterliebe or Gotterdammerung and have no idea what the text means, but your experience will be very superficial compared with someone who’s taken the trouble to get his head round the words.

Maybe the same is true for his other pieces with associated texts like the 20 regards.


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## starthrower

millionrainbows said:


> Then please don't tell me that Messiaen's music is "whatever you want it to be" and expect me to believe that you are correct.
> We all know that this music is religious in nature. Apparently you are unwilling to approach the music on the composer's terms.


Whatever you want it to be? I don't have such a desire and I doubt other listeners do either. The music itself is not religious. Humans are religious, as are many musicians and composers. But the music is just music. Being conscious of a composer's religious devotion doesn't change the quality of the composition. The only thing that enriches the experience for me is how closely I listen and what I get out of it.


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## Guest

Mandryka said:


> I've got an idea about Messiaen. I think in the bird catalogue, the text stands to the music a bit like the words stand to piece of lyrical music, You can listen to Dichterliebe or Gotterdammerung and have no idea what the text means, but your experience will be very superficial compared with someone who's taken the trouble to get his head round the words.
> 
> Maybe the same is true for his other pieces with associated texts like the 20 regards.


I am perfectly happy to read the movement titles (Regard de la Croix, Regard des Anges, Regard des prophètes, des bergers et des Mages, etc) before listening. That and the background idea that the music is intended to be spiritual is an entry point. In the end the music speaks for itself.

About Gotterdammerung, isn't there the story that Bruckner attended a Bayreuth and at the end asked "Tell me, why did they burn the woman at the end?" I wouldn't mind having Bruckner's grasp of the music of Wagner.


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## Chatellerault

Mandryka said:


> I've got an idea about Messiaen. I think in the bird catalogue, the text stands to the music a bit like the words stand to piece of lyrical music, You can listen to Dichterliebe or Gotterdammerung and have no idea what the text means, but your experience will be very superficial compared with someone who's taken the trouble to get his head round the words.
> 
> Maybe the same is true for his other pieces with associated texts like the 20 regards.


That's a good comparison to me.
I can listen to a Bach cantata not giving one second of attention to the text. That's how I listen to Bach most of the time. But I'm willing to admit it's more superficial than when I actually pay attention to the text and context.
And it applies to Bach's instrumental parts too, e.g. three trumpets are often related to the Apocalypse, tempo changes may be related to the text, etc.

One example of instrumental music by Messiaen with a clear program is, in his last organ book, movement 11, "The Resurrected Christ appears to Mary Magdalene". It starts gloomy and nightly after crucifixion, then, as a magnificent sunrise, Christ appears and so on.

You may listen to it just for the music (I.e. for the sound) and it is not a wrong way to listen but it is superficial. You might as well appreciate Rembrandt's masterpiece about the same religious subject and not even care about the title. You can appreciate it for Rembrandt's use of color, for the details in the characters' clothes, but that will be, in a quite literal sense, staying on the surface.

I'm not talking just about religion, I'm talking about symbolism, about X representing Y according to a certain culture. If you think Rembrandt painted Jesus in white clothes just because he had run out of other colors, or a thousand renaissance painters did crucifixions with St Mary in blue and St John in red but it's just a coincidence, you'll be really on the surface. That's a choice, of course.

https://www.rct.uk/collection/404816/christ-and-st-mary-magdalen-at-the-tomb


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## Chatellerault

CnC Bartok said:


> Ignoring the toing and froing about religion and spirituality here (poor Olivier), I have a huge amount of admiration for Messiaen and his music, with a particular focus on the big orchestral pieces, the piano stuff, the organ works.
> 
> That said, there is one indisputable masterpiece of his I really do not get. It's the Quartet for the End of Time. I only have one recording, the Barenboim one on DGG, and it just doesn't grab me. I suspect it might be the problem, I hope so.
> 
> So please someone recommend me a really involving performance. NLAdriaan's suggestion a couple of pages back is happily noted.
> 
> TIA!


Try the one with Yvonne Loriod (EMI)if you want the composer's approved version. She's Mrs. Messiaen, of course.

She plays Messiaen's piano parts always with a certain soft, velvet touch, rather the one you'd expect for Debussy as well. And unlike all other recordings of this work I've come across.


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## Guest

Chatellerault said:


> That's a good comparison to me.
> I can listen to a Bach cantata not giving one second of attention to the text. That's how I listen to Bach most of the time. But I'm willing to admit it's more superficial than when I actually pay attention to the text and context.
> And it applies to Bach's instrumental parts too, e.g. three trumpets are often related to the Apocalypse, tempo changes may be related to the text, etc.
> 
> One example of instrumental music by Messiaen with a clear program is, in his last organ book, movement 11, "The Resurrected Christ appears to Mary Magdalene". It starts gloomy and nightly after crucifixion, then, as a magnificent sunrise, Christ appears and so on.
> 
> You may listen to it just for the music (I.e. for the sound) and it is not a wrong way to listen but it is superficial. You might as well appreciate Rembrandt's masterpiece about the same religious subject and not even care about the title. You can appreciate it for Rembrandt's use of color, for the details in the characters' clothes, but that will be, in a quite literal sense, staying on the surface.
> 
> I'm not talking just about religion, I'm talking about symbolism, about X representing Y according to a certain culture. If you think Rembrandt painted Jesus in white clothes just because he had run out of other colors, or a thousand renaissance painters did crucifixions with St Mary in blue and St John in red but it's just a coincidence, you'll be really on the surface. That's a choice, of course.


I don't agree with your identification of what is superficial and what is not superficial. Listening to music without reference to the "program" is not listening "for the sound" it is listening for musical development. Listening to the organ piece you describe (which I am not familiar with) I don't think it would not at all be superficial to appreciate the musical development you describe. I would regard the information that the musical sunrise specifically depicts Christ's appearance to Mary Magdalene as less essential. If a piece of music really needs an explicit program to be enjoyed, I would consider that the a mark of a weak piece of music.


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## millionrainbows

starthrower said:


> Million, have a beer or a cup of tea and chill. Everybody can enjoy music in the way that suits them.


I'm not trying to "control" the way they listen to music. I'm just saying that it is an incomplete understanding of Messiaen if they don't recognize his intent as a composer. If they want to proclaim that "Messiaen sounds like children's cartoon music," then that's their right, but don't insist that I need to "chill out" if I disagree.


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## millionrainbows

Baron Scarpia said:


> Of course I am aware that Messiaen's work was inspired by theological ideas. What concerns me is whether these ideas motivated him to create great music. In many cases it did. His motivation is his concern, not mine.


Again, you are creating an artificial separation of Messiaen, his intent and music, and your perception of it. The music is the expression of Messiaen's being, faith, beliefs, and existence; it is therefore highly charged and symbolic, as an expression of his being. It's not just an "object" for your consumption, like a can of tuna fish. If you approach it with no regard for that, your approach is incomplete. With your conscious knowledge, however, this lack becomes a perverse flaw, a willful rejection of the creators's offering of sharing his "being" with you.

It's too bad that recording turned music into a thing of sound, seemingly removed from human performance. We must never forget that music is an expression of humanity, and cannot be separated from humanity.


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## millionrainbows

starthrower said:


> Whatever you want it to be? I don't have such a desire and I doubt other listeners do either. The music itself is not religious. Humans are religious, as are many musicians and composers. But the music is just music. Being conscious of a composer's religious devotion doesn't change the quality of the composition. The only thing that enriches the experience for me is how closely I listen and what I get out of it.


I don't think you truly understand the significance of Messiaen's music, then. You may be missing quite a bit in the area of art in general, as well.

You must approach art, it does not approach you. This requires "submission" and reception.

When I stand in front of a Mark Rothko painting, I "submit." I fully acknowledge that it is a "recording" of Rothko's gestures, intents, his being, his life and essence. It is not simply an "object," it is a form which is highly charged with meaning of a vey human nature.

You must seek out this message by any means necessary. You must use your own humanity to get there, if you have not forgotten how to be human.


----------



## millionrainbows

Mandryka said:


> I've got an idea about Messiaen. I think in the bird catalogue, the text stands to the music a bit like the words stand to piece of lyrical music, You can listen to Dichterliebe or Gotterdammerung and have no idea what the text means, but your experience will be very superficial compared with someone who's taken the trouble to get his head round the words.
> 
> Maybe the same is true for his other pieces with associated texts like the 20 regards.


I think it goes further than understanding words, since the music and the text support each other. The text need not be sung; it could be indicated in the score. In the case of religious-based music, I think that you must immerse yourself in the composer's intent and beliefs, and faith, in order to truly grasp it. Otherwise, you have imposed a separation, and are not fully engaged, for perhaps good reasons, if this belief-system is at odds with your own. Ideally, our universal humanity and desire to empathize and join with the composer is enhanced and evoked by the music. At least, when presented with the composer's true vision, we can suspend whatever belief or disbelief we have, in order to more fully "submit" and engage with it on a realistic level of what it represents and resonates.


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## millionrainbows

Chatellerault said:


> That's a good comparison to me.
> I can listen to a Bach cantata not giving one second of attention to the text. That's how I listen to Bach most of the time.


I am trying to believe what you say; I think that, as a human being, there are myriad undercurrents at work, which are "givens." At some level, you are listening to a Bach cantata knowing that it is religious in nature and intent. This does not require your conscious attention; it is already ingrained in your humanity, as one of the many "assumptions" we have assimilated culturally and as humans.



> I'm not talking just about religion, I'm talking about symbolism, about X representing Y according to a certain culture. If you think Rembrandt painted Jesus in white clothes just because he had run out of other colors, or a thousand renaissance painters did crucifixions with St Mary in blue and St John in red but it's just a coincidence, you'll be really on the surface. That's a choice, of course.


----------



## millionrainbows

Baron Scarpia said:


> I don't agree with your identification of what is superficial and what is not superficial. Listening to music without reference to the "program" is not listening "for the sound" it is listening for musical development. Listening to the organ piece you describe (which I am not familiar with) I don't think it would not at all be superficial to appreciate the musical development you describe. I would regard the information that the musical sunrise specifically depicts Christ's appearance to Mary Magdalene as less essential. If a piece of music really needs an explicit program to be enjoyed, I would consider that the a mark of a weak piece of music.


Then how would you interpret the musical sunrise? Can you not enjoy it with the intended symbolism, are are you distracted and repelled by the imagery of Mary Magdalene? I would be more likely to think the problem would be your resistance, not the composer's failure. For whatever reason, you are consciously refusing to engage with the work on the "religious imagery" level.
This is a complete work of art, not just "music," so to separate the imagery or text is an incomplete picture, and by proclaiming this, actually damages the art as a symbolic statement.


----------



## joen_cph

Chatellerault said:


> Try the one with Yvonne Loriod (EMI)if you want the composer's approved version. She's Mrs. Messiaen, of course.
> 
> She plays Messiaen's piano parts always with a certain soft, velvet touch, rather the one you'd expect for Debussy as well. And unlike all other recordings of this work I've come across.


There's a recording of the Quartet with Messiaen himself too. I have the LP.
Timings:

A1	1. Liturgie De Cristal	2:15
A2	2. Vocalise Pour L'Ange Qui Annonce La Fin Du Temps	3:50
A3	3. Abîme Des Oiseaux	5:10
A4	4. Intermède	1:55
A5	5. Louange À L'Éternité De Jésus	7:40
B1	6. Danse De La Fureur, Pour Les Sept Trompettes	7:00
B2	7. Fouillis D'Arcs-En-Ciel, Pour L'Ange Qui Annonce La Fin Du Temps	7:50
B3	8. Louange À L'Immortalité De Jésus	7:10

https://www.discogs.com/Messiaen-Ol...er-Quatuor-Pour-La-Fin-Du-Tem/release/2408150


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## millionrainbows

This has Boulez' Sonate No. 2, Vingt Regards, The Bird Catologue, and more.


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## Chatellerault

millionrainbows said:


> This has Boulez' Sonate No. 2, Vingt Regards, The Bird Catologue, and more.


The Quatuour recording I mentioned is not here, it's an EMI recording from the 1980s or 90s.

But this box looks like real fun. The 20 Regards I have and I love them. Messiaen plays the other piano in the Visions de l'Amen. I wasn't aware she had recorded the complete Iberia, it's a composition Messiaen praised above all other piano masterpieces.


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## joen_cph

I have the old Loriod/Vega LPs of Vingt Regards & like them, but I've switched to the rather special Batagov as my favourite in that work.


----------



## Guest

joen_cph said:


> I have the old Loriod/Vega LPs of Vingt Regards & like them, but I've switched to the rather special Batagov as my favourite in that work.


I have a Loriod recording of Vingt Regards in the Warner "Messiaen Edition," which I think was originally an Erato recording, different from the Vega recording, I assume. Later I got the John Ogdon recording, but never managed to find time to listen.


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## millionrainbows

I like anything I can find on the Adés label.


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## Enthusiast

I am 100% an atheist. I believe that religious experiences are a product of stimulations in certain parts of the brain and are no more than that.

Messiaen was a deeply religious man and a very finely tuned musician/composer. His music expresses whatever it expresses with extraordinary precision. For him the "message" seems to have been deeply religious but his music is in the public domain and we are free to make of it what we will.

I have been surprised to find quite an argument going on here about what we should hear in the music or what approach to take if we would avoid a merely superficial perception of it. For what it is worth, a lot of Messiaen's music has an almost visceral impact on me when I hear it, quite unlike any other music I know. If I chose to I could view it as the nearest I ever come to a truly religious experience. More so even than Bach. I hear a _description _ or depiction of the "glory of God" in Bach (but probably an outdated one as far as theology is concerned) but with Messiaen _I seem to feel _something that may be what many believe to be the glory of God.


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## Enthusiast

CnC Bartok said:


> Ignoring the toing and froing about religion and spirituality here (poor Olivier), I have a huge amount of admiration for Messiaen and his music, with a particular focus on the big orchestral pieces, the piano stuff, the organ works.
> 
> That said, there is one indisputable masterpiece of his I really do not get. It's the Quartet for the End of Time. I only have one recording, the Barenboim one on DGG, and it just doesn't grab me. I suspect it might be the problem, I hope so.
> 
> So please someone recommend me a really involving performance. NLAdriaan's suggestion a couple of pages back is happily noted.
> 
> TIA!


The Quartet for the End of Time is a work I love and one that responds for me to quite a wide variety of performance approaches. The Tashi one is good but so are many others. This one is a little different -









It is one of those works that I cannot separate from the circumstances of their composition. Generally, I don't think it is a good idea to make such associations but sometimes I just can't help it. Beethoven's Eroica is another (not so much the Napoleon story as the arrival in the world of a piece of music so totally different to anything that had come before). With the Quartet for the End of Time I can't avoid thinking of the audience of POWs and their Nazi/German guards, many of whom seem to have found it something special despite it being played by relatively indifferent performers and despite it even now seeming a fairly challenging piece of music.


----------



## Guest

Enthusiast said:


> I have been surprised to find quite an argument going on here about what we should hear in the music or what approach to take if we would avoid a merely superficial perception of it. For what it is worth, a lot of Messiaen's music has an almost visceral impact on me when I hear it, quite unlike any other music I know. If I chose to I could view it as the nearest I ever come to a truly religious experience. More so even than Bach. I hear a _description _ or depiction of the "glory of God" in Bach (but probably an outdated one as far as theology is concerned) but with Messiaen _I seem to feel _something that may be what many believe to be the glory of God.


Certainly Messiaen had a unique inspiration and produced music which was likewise unique. Perhaps it takes that sort of inspiration to inspire that sort of music. Or maybe it was all a rouse and the music is secretly about the glory of being in bed with Misses Messiaen.

I think Messiaen's "glory of god" style is epitomized in "Apparition de l'englies eternelle" for organ. What it evokes in me is a sense of awe. Not necessarily the awe of Messiaen's Catholic deity. There are other things that can inspire awe.


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## starthrower

I just put on the quartet. I have only one recording on Delos.


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## Guest

Enthusiast said:


> The Quartet for the End of Time is a work I love and one that responds for me to quite a wide variety of performance approaches. The Tashi one is good but so are many others. This one is a little different -
> 
> View attachment 125622


What's different about it. How is it "reframed?"


----------



## CnC Bartok

Enthusiast said:


> The Quartet for the End of Time is a work I love and one that responds for me to quite a wide variety of performance approaches. The Tashi one is good but so are many others. This one is a little different -
> 
> View attachment 125622
> 
> 
> It is one of those works that I cannot separate from the circumstances of their composition. Generally, I don't think it is a good idea to make such associations but sometimes I just can't help it. Beethoven's Eroica is another (not so much the Napoleon story as the arrival in the world of a piece of music so totally different to anything that had come before). With the Quartet for the End of Time I can't avoid thinking of the audience of POWs and their Nazi/German guards, many of whom seem to have found it something special despite it being played by relatively indifferent performers and despite it even now seeming a fairly challenging piece of music.


I don't think you need to think about POWs etc here, but I thoroughly understand why you do/one does.

I have listened to Barenboim again, and it's a bit in-your-face, and lacking whatever the French for Innigkeit is. Involving.

I've also listened to Frost et al, and get a lot more from it. But perversely the recording that I have clicked with is the other DGG one, with conductor Chung at the piano. The recording is superb, and maybe its immediacy has made the big clarinet solo movement and the hopeless (?) finale really hit home. Looking forward to giving de Leeuw & co, and the EMI with Mrs.M a proper and respectful listen.


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## mikeh375

millionrainbows said:


> ...............I think that, as a human being, there are myriad undercurrents at work, which are "givens." At some level, you are listening to a Bach cantata knowing that it is religious in nature and intent. This does not require your conscious attention; it is already ingrained in your humanity, as one of the many "assumptions" we have assimilated culturally and as humans.


This is a reasonable compromise for me. I listen to Messiaen without the religion because I find the music potent on its own terms, however I do acknowledge at some level that there is an extra-musical narrative and occasionally, because his work is sometimes clearly descriptive of its subject, one can't help but see imagery, if only for a moment or two in my case. However, I don't need the imagery and am deeply moved by the music anyway - I do not miss out at all - my experience is mine alone and based on what I know and feel.

It is perhaps a different listen for me when there is text as that makes the intent unambiguous especially when the composition is more overtly descriptive and its line/emotional arc is governed by the words ebb and flow. Like Chatellerault, I can also listen to Bach's vocal work and be mesmerised by just the notes and given my compositional background, sometimes that is more than enough.


----------



## millionrainbows

Enthusiast said:


> I am 100% an atheist. I believe that religious experiences are a product of stimulations in certain parts of the brain and are no more than that.
> 
> Messiaen was a deeply religious man and a very finely tuned musician/composer. His music expresses whatever it expresses with extraordinary precision. For him the "message" seems to have been deeply religious but his music is in the public domain and we are free to make of it what we will.


Okay; this sort of objectification of music as an external object rather than an almost-forgotten "language of the soul" is typical.



> I have been surprised to find quite an argument going on here about what we should hear in the music or what approach to take if we would avoid a merely superficial perception of it. For what it is worth, a lot of Messiaen's music has an almost visceral impact on me when I hear it, quite unlike any other music I know. If I chose to I could view it as the nearest I ever come to a truly religious experience. More so even than Bach. I hear a _description _ or depiction of the "glory of God" in Bach (but probably an outdated one as far as theology is concerned) but with Messiaen _I seem to feel _something that may be what many believe to be the glory of God.


That's because, as a professed atheist, you nonetheless still have an "essence of being" which lies beyond the mind. Apparently, by your own admission, Messiaen's music evokes this "sense of being" in you. Excellent, excellent!

Remember, Messiaen is not just about "belief," doctrine, faith, or dogma. His music is about our "essence of being" which always existed, before any religion had been formed. Apparently, you have tapped-into this essence when you hear Messiaen, which is acting as a "spiritual catalyst" to evoke this sympathetic reaction. Mission accomplished!


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## Enthusiast

I don't deny the experiences we used to call religious. I just think they are a product of our brain. You can invoke them in people by stimulating a particular part of the brain. What the evolutionary purpose of that function is, I can't imagine.


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## millionrainbows

Brain surgeons have said that when they go into a brain, no soul was found. I guess that means it doesn't exist.:lol:

I had two clear sheets with line patterns on them. When I placed them on top of each other, I saw moiré patterns. But they didn't exist.

A zen monk was looking at a flag flapping in the breeze. He asked the master, "What is moving, the flag, or the wind?"

The master answered, saying "Neither. The mind is moving."


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## starthrower

millionrainbows said:


> Brain surgeons have said that when they go into a brain, no soul was found. I guess that means it doesn't exist.:lol:


You ought to know they were looking in the wrong place. When the true self is spoken of nobody points to the head.


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## millionrainbows

starthrower said:


> You ought to know they were looking in the wrong place. When the true self is spoken of nobody points to the head.


Do you mean something like "I got your "soul" hangin'!" _(grabs crotch)_


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## starthrower

millionrainbows said:


> Do you mean something like "I got your "soul" hangin'!" _(grabs crotch)_


I'll give you points for sarcasm, million. The least inventive form of humor.


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## CnC Bartok

starthrower said:


> The least inventive form of humor.


Thought for one moment you had moved on to Laurel and Hardy........:devil:


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## millionrainbows

CnC Bartok said:


> Thought for one moment you had moved on to Laurel and Hardy........:devil:


He's probably a "Three Stooges" man...because of all the sound effects. It reminds him of musique concréte.


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## starthrower

millionrainbows said:


> He's probably a "Three Stooges" man...because of all the sound effects. It reminds him of musique concréte.


I'm a Harpo Marx man.


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## Blancrocher

Repetitiously listening to Aimard's Vingt regards and Hommage a Messiaen. Liking them so much I'm going to disregard my first spotify-impressions and get his Catalogue d'oiseaux as well.


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## starthrower

If anybody is interested in the Latry organ set on DG, Presto is selling it for 25 dollars. That's at least half price.


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## millionrainbows

starthrower said:


> If anybody is interested in the Latry organ set on DG, Presto is selling it for 25 dollars. That's at least half price.


Hey starthrower, there should be a "best bargains" thread, since you know so many sources. I, for one, would be a frequent visitor.


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## starthrower

millionrainbows said:


> Hey starthrower, there should be a "best bargains" thread, since you know so many sources. I, for one, would be a frequent visitor.


There is one in the next section down under recorded music.


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## flamencosketches

starthrower said:


> If anybody is interested in the Latry organ set on DG, Presto is selling it for 25 dollars. That's at least half price.


I will likely have to pick this up come payday...


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## CnC Bartok

I like Latry in the organ music, but having said that, Jennifer Bate is capable of being just awesome! My first experience of Messiaen was actually her LP recording of La Nativite du Seigneur, absolutely blew me away (and damaged my speakers in the final movement!!)

Neither organist is "better" per se, although Messiaen himself was a big admirer of Bate's work. Olivier Latry is more thoughtful and meditative, Jennifer more willing to show greater contrast. Maybe a small part of that is the instrument itself? Notre Dame vs Beauvais?

"C'est vraiment parfait!" was the composer's opinion of Bate's Nativite.......


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## starthrower

I should grab the Latry at that price but I've already got the Bate set. I don't get a chance to crank my organ recordings because the wife doesn't like loud music. And organ music at low volume just doesn't do it for me.


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## CnC Bartok

I'd say that the Latry and Bate do complement each other. Is it silly to describe Latry as more spiritual or cerebral??? They're very very well recorded too! I've got them in the white DGG centenary edition; go for it!

I will of course refrain from making any kind of smutty remark viz "cranking your organ", because it doesn't sound like a euphemism in the slightest....:angel:


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## flamencosketches

starthrower said:


> I should grab the Latry at that price but I've already got the Bate set. I don't get a chance to crank my organ recordings because the wife doesn't like loud music. And organ music at low volume just doesn't do it for me.


That's what headphones are for, my friend. That being said I would love the chance to crank up the volume and play some Messiaen organ music on a system with a great subwoofer. I live in a small apartment so that's a non-option.


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## starthrower

flamencosketches said:


> That's what headphones are for, my friend. That being said I would love the chance to crank up the volume and play some Messiaen organ music on a system with a great subwoofer. I live in a small apartment so that's a non-option.


I'm doing some Strauss tone poems through headphones at the moment. But pipe organ needs good speakers.


----------



## Guest

starthrower said:


> I'm doing some Strauss tone poems through headphones at the moment. But pipe organ needs good speakers.


All recording playback is a compromise. I don't have a problem enjoying organ music with good headphones. Giant audiophile speakers would be preferred, but headphones are better than missing out entirely.


----------



## Chatellerault

CnC Bartok said:


> Maybe a small part of that is the instrument itself? Notre Dame vs Beauvais?
> 
> "C'est vraiment parfait!" was the composer's opinion of Bate's Nativite.......


I love Bate's Messiaen, mostly because of the acoustics of Beauvais, the tallest of all Gothic Cathedrals. It's amazingly well recorded, I can almost see the cathedral roof when that reverberant organ echoes in the silent phrases.

Also it's a recording that makes clear Messiaen's use of silence in his organ music in order for us to listen to the church's sound. While Schoenberg and Stravinsky often composed in terms of sheet music (formalism, music to be read and analysed), Messiaen is all about sound itself. Also interesting to remember he was playing the organ almost every week from his twenties to old life , so he really got some experience with sounds that work and others that don't... I believe that's why he didn't adhere to any of the strict rules of his time, such as no major chords, no fifths and so on. He didn't want to make a chord progression that would sound like Mozart or Beethoven or anything that had already been done, but he wouldn't avoid a fifth just for the sake of being avant-garde.

I was once in a piano recital with the complete Vingt Regards (great playing by Peter Donohoe) and some people close to me were talking with contempt: "after all that, he ends with a major chord", well I suppose these witty guys are not playing church music every sunday.

Another organist that seems to understand Messiaen quite well is Colin Andrews, his recording of "Méditations sur le Mystère..." even makes me forget Mrs. Bate. His use of rubato is freer than hers and I appreciate the way he phrases the plainsong melodies.


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## millionrainbows

flamencosketches mentioned this recording earlier. I admit that it's a good performance, but the recording, for me, is marred by way too much hall ambiance. You know how I feel about this.

View attachment 126395


----------



## starthrower

There's an excellent bargain disc on Warner Classics that includes the quartet, plus Chronochromie conducted by Dorati. You can listen to the quartet on YT. Just type it in with the name Erich Gruenberg. It's a late 60s recording with good sound.


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## millionrainbows

starthrower said:


> There's an excellent bargain disc on Warner Classics that includes the quartet, plus Chronochromie conducted by Dorati. You can listen to the quartet on YT. Just type it in with the name Erich Gruenberg. It's a late 60s recording with good sound.


 It looks like it will cost $27 on Amazon; however, there appears to be a new issue (without the Chronocromie/Dorati).


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## starthrower

No, there's a single disc priced at under 10 dollars. No Turangalila.
https://www.amazon.com/Messiaen-Qua...c&sprefix=messian+quartet+,popular,192&sr=1-4

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=quartet+for+the+end+of+time+erich+gruenberg


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## millionrainbows

starthrower said:


> No, there's a single disc priced at under 10 dollars. No Turangalila.
> https://www.amazon.com/Messiaen-Qua...c&sprefix=messian+quartet+,popular,192&sr=1-4
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=quartet+for+the+end+of+time+erich+gruenberg


Oh, good! Only seven dollars. I'll order that.

My initial search did not bring up the low-priced disc, because I used "Erich Gruenberg" in the search. Without that name, I get the lower priced version. That's what I get for following your instructions in detail. :lol:


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## starthrower

millionrainbows said:


> Oh, good! Only seven dollars. I'll order that.
> 
> That's what I get for following your instructions in detail. [/COLOR]:lol:


If you reread my post, those were my instructions for finding it on YouTube, not Amazon. But no matter, I've since added the YT link.


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## millionrainbows

starthrower said:


> If you reread my post, those were my instructions for finding it on YouTube, not Amazon. But no matter, I've since added the YT link.


Okay, granted. I want to possess and fetish the actual disc, always. And I will take your advice with no YT proof needed. That's how much I respect your opinion, starthrower._ (begins crying, and exits stage left)
_


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## starthrower

I don't know if you'll like the production or mix? The clarinet sounds rather prominent. And I haven't heard the Dorati recording. But the review I read stressed the performance. I like 60s and early 70s classical recordings so that's why I was interested in this one.


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## millionrainbows

starthrower said:


> I don't know if you'll like the production or mix? The clarinet sounds rather prominent. And I haven't heard the Dorati recording. But the review I read stressed the performance. I like 60s and early 70s classical recordings so that's why I was interested in this one.


Me too, so I'm not worried. Seven dollars? I can't even get a good cheeseburger at that price.


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## starthrower

millionrainbows said:


> Me too, so I'm not worried. Seven dollars? I can't even get a good cheeseburger at that price.


Actually, most of them sound like that. The Martin Frost on Sony sounds similar. I've always liked Dorati so I'm interested to hear his Chronochromie.


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## millionrainbows

starthrower said:


> Actually, most of them sound like that. The Martin Frost on Sony sounds similar. I've always liked Dorati so I'm interested to hear his Chronochromie.


Anything but that cavernous hall sound which permeates most digital recordings. I especially like the Columbia Masterworks releases from that era, such as Eugene Ormandy and George Szell.


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## starthrower

millionrainbows said:


> Anything but that cavernous hall sound which permeates most digital recordings. I especially like the Columbia Masterworks releases from that era, such as Eugene Ormandy and George Szell.


I was thinking of picking up the Ormandy Sibelius box. 8 CDs for 18 bucks!


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## philoctetes

starthrower said:


> I was thinking of picking up the Ormandy Sibelius box. 8 CDs for 18 bucks!


Don't think you'll regret it if you like your Sibelius with Philly Cream Cheese. And Dylana Jensen recorded a fine concerto.


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## starthrower

philoctetes said:


> Don't think you'll regret it if you like your Sibelius with Philly Cream Cheese. And Dylana Jensen recorded a fine concerto.


I noticed it's missing 3 & 6 but includes two performances of 1-2. I'll look for a complete set instead.


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## philoctetes

starthrower said:


> I noticed it's missing 3 & 6 but includes two performances of 1-2. I'll look for a complete set instead.


One of those #2 is a candidate for my personal favorite... the Columbia one that was on an Essential Classic... Eugene's phatness in the phinale is the reason... a Goldilocks recording... haven't heard it in many years but very fond of it...


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## philoctetes

MR, I will vouch for the Dorati Chronochromie.... it comes with the Warner Messiaen Edition box set which also includes a lot of other good stuff like Loriod's Oiseaux

I discovered another Messiaen organist this week - Jolanda Zwoferink - who runs her own CD company - Prestare - for recording organ music. Like Ormandy's Sibelius, her Messiaen is thick and meaty, which doesn't sound appropriate in concept, yet I enjoyed hearing some on Spotify because it sounds very sure of where it's going... as if she studied the music thoroughly... she has recorded the Livre du St Sacrement and the Messe de Pentacote...


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## starthrower

philoctetes said:


> One of those #2 is a candidate for my personal favorite... the Columbia one that was on an Essential Classic... Eugene's phatness in the phinale is the reason... a Goldilocks recording... haven't heard it in many years but very fond of it...


No.2 is the one I usually sample by different conductors. I like Barbirolli/Halle, and Colin Davis/BSO. Will try the 2 Ormandy's.


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## Guest

starthrower said:


> No.2 is the one I usually sample by different conductors. I like Barbirolli/Halle, and Colin Davis/BSO. Will try the 2 Ormandy's.


Not a good strategy, I find that even conductors that produce the most disappointing cycles don't manage to spoil #2.


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## starthrower

Baron Scarpia said:


> Not a good strategy, I find that even conductors that produce the most disappointing cycles don't manage to spoil #2.


I find a number of them don't do the intro the way I like to hear it. But I really should be discussing this on the best/worst Sibelius thread.


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## philoctetes

starthrower said:


> I find a number of them don't do the intro the way I like to hear it. But I really should be discussing this on the best/worst Sibelius thread.


Both intro and finale are stumbling points for me. I'm on the side that thinks good #2s are rare... but I'm kinda picky about Sibelius i general...


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## Medrenium

To say that music is not "religious" in the same sense that humans are betrays an equivocation in the use of the word "religious." Music does not go to church, bend the knee and lift up the hand in prayer and praise as worshipping Christians do. Yet, in Holy Scripture, God says that the utensils of the Lord's house, and even the harness bells of the horses, will be inscribed as holy to the Lord - in other words, "set apart" for a special purpose. In the same sense did Bach assert that, "The aim and final reason… of all music… should be none else but the Glory of God and the recreation of the mind" - and that, not only of his St. Matthew Passion and Mass in B Minor, but of his Cello Suites, Brandenburg Concertos, etc.


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## Honkermann

Yet, the "spiritual" quality of Messiaen's music is not a simple or obvious thing. There's the fact of Messiaen's personal faith in Catholicism, which he expressed in interviews loudly and frequently. And the titles of most of his works are overt references to Catholic texts and concepts.

But the music itself is complicates the question. Its form and content was radically experimental for its time, in a way that would seem to be at odds with the conservative Catholic church, an institution not known for supporting change or radical new perspectives. Perhaps only in France could a composer be both a Catholic and a member of the avant-garde, given the nation's history with revolutions in politics and philosophy. Only in France, could Messiaen be your local church organist every Sunday (this is true) !

Catholicism does not advocate mysticism -- you shouldn't speak directly to God, that's the priests' job -- yet Messiaen was unabashedly mystic, and this can be heard in his music. Conventional religious music is anodyne, full of reassurance and ordered predictability. Messiaen's music is unpredictable, alarming, full of unfamiliar emotions, prone to outbursts of intensity: revelations, annunciations, ecstasies, agonies. 

The titles of his later organ works seem like they could belong to organ hymns sung by the whole congregation on Sunday (eg., "Unto Us is Born a Son"), yet the music itself is extreme and even terrifying -- the wheezing, grunting, bellowing organ matches nobody's idea of "church music". The disconnect is so pronounced that it's almost comical.

At the beginning of this thread (12 years ago!) someone commented that there's an erotic quality to some of Messiaen's music. I'll agree -- for example, the 6th movement of Turangalîla-Symphonie was described as Messiaen as "the two lovers are enclosed in love's sleep, a landscape comes out from them..." -- to my ears, it a perfect representation of exhausted post-coital hypnagogic trance. That's certainly a different kind of spirituality than, say, Bach cantatas...!


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## millionrainbows

George Benjamin: _"Look at what he did for Xenakis. As a student in Paris after the war, Xenakis was in a quandary. He went to Messiaen and said: 'Other music teachers say I can't possibly write these mathematically based pieces without knowing about harmony and counterpoint. What should I do?'
Now Messiaen was a product of the Conservatoire system in Paris. There every musician - not just composers - had learnt harmony and counterpoint as essentials from time immemorial. Messiaen himself had done so for over a decade and was a teacher of those very skills there at the time.
After reflection, he told Xenakis: "Don't. Don't do harmony or counterpoint. Your gift is elsewhere. Follow your voice.' To say that then was extraordinary. And he was right. His attitude was totally different from the other great French teacher at that time, Nadia Boulanger.' - __The Messiaen Companion, p. 270_


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## millionrainbows

Good point in favor of "religious" music having a permanent connection to religion (I see it as spirituality), but I disagree that is is "validated" only because of what scripture says, unless we agree that "Man's being is holy" and this "being" is the permanent reference and precursor of any religious dogma. If that religion honors Man's being as the original, primal source of all religion and "holy" or sacred things, then so much the better.

In "religious" music, some think it is possible to separate the music from its text, function, and intended purpose as "religious" music.

This is what I call a product of objective "formal" analysis. In this type of analysis, only external, formal elements are considered. In painting, this would be the colors themselves, and all visible formal elements. Ironically, the listener (above) thinks that this is a totally "subjective" approach.
Then there is the other side of this analysis equation, which considers _subjective_ questions:
What was the artist's intent? What was the artist trying to accomplish? Was the artist sincere?

In other words, this second analytical approach focusses on _the artist _and his intentions, his sincerity, and all those subjective factors of _the other person._ In other words, it assumes that art is a result of _another person's being _(the artist) as it is seen by us.

To me, this is a one-sided "subjectivity" which does not recognize the art object as _the product of the artist's being as it communicates to us on a human level._ 
This results in a kind of narcissism which dehumanizes the artist and art, and renders the art into being an "object" divorced from any connection with "being" except our own. Art is always a two-way street if it is to have a "subjective" dimension of meaning.

Otherwise, we are just "counting notes" and observing formal characteristics which exclude "the meaning" the art was intended to convey.


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## mikeh375

millionrainbows said:


> …...
> 
> I see people doing this all the time. In "religious" music, they think it is possible to separate the music from its text, function, and intended purpose as "religious" music.
> 
> This is what I call a product of objective "formal" analysis. In this type of analysis, only external, formal elements are considered. In painting, this would be the colors themselves, and all visible formal elements. Ironically, the listener (above) thinks that this is a totally "subjective" approach: _"...my experience is mine alone and based on what I know and feel."_
> 
> Then there is the other side of this analysis equation, which considers _subjective_ questions:
> What was the artist's intent? What was the artist trying to accomplish? Was the artist sincere?
> 
> In other words, this second analytical approach focusses on _the artist _and his intentions, his sincerity, and all those subjective factors of _the other person._ In other words, it assumes that art is a result of _another person's being _(the artist) as it is seen by us.
> 
> To me, saying _"I don't need the imagery and am deeply moved by the music anyway - I do not miss out at all - my experience is mine alone and based on what I know and feel"_ is a one-sided "subjectivity" which does not recognize the art object as _the product of the artist's being as it communicates to us on a human level._
> This results in a kind of narcissism which dehumanizes the artist and art, and renders the art into being an "object" divorced from any connection with "being" except our own. Art is always a two-way street if it is to have a "subjective" dimension of meaning.
> 
> Otherwise, we are just "counting notes" and observing formal characteristics which exclude "the meaning" the art was intended to convey.


Dear TC'ers, I tend to not gloat much at all, but please for a moment, indulge me and then forgive me.

I studied composition at one of the most prestigious institutes in the world and have 8 letters after my name. I have worked professionally for 30 years with the UK's finest musicians, have won several professional awards and am a skilled orchestrator, composer and pianist. Apparently despite this provenance I have been missing out on a discipline I have profound knowledge of and worse still, insulting it with my lax ways. Well I'm amazed I've got away with it for so long. 
I will of course consider the opinion of the poster above as I have some respect for him but will immediately discard it as completely objectionable and ignorant because this person cannot possibly perceive of my way of listening, its efficacy on my being and musical spirituality and how it affects me. He is in no position to judge in such a damming way, me or anyone else in this regard and I thank him in advance for not being so presumptuous and frankly, insulting in future posts.


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## Bourdon

Perhaps it is enlightening to post this anecdote of Messiaen concerning the source from which its religious roots stem.
It is first and foremost a need as expressed in his words.

I really believe that I have become a believer through fairy tales. The wonderful thing is my natural element, which makes me feel good. I feel a need to live something wonderful, but then something wonderful that is true! In general you find the miraculous in myths, in imaginary stories, while the miraculous that you are given in the Catholic faith is true. A wonder that you can rely on. Thus, little by little, and without being aware of it, I have become a believer. You could say that I went unnoticed from the surreal of fairy tales to the supernatural of believing.

About mysticism:

I personally mistrust this word. It does not suit me at all, and I will tell you why. As soon as people talk about mysticism, people think of a morbid condition, of a neurotic who has vague feelings and ecstasies. I don't like that. I am a believer and I love the real gifts of faith. There have been real mystics, with real visions and ecstasies, such as St. John of the Cross, and even in the Bible you come across this. For example, Moses had visions. But people don't do it on their own. When one is it, one is not aware of it, and one does not have the right to say that one is it. And in my opinion, no one has the right to say that it is someone else, as long as he is not dead. It is too personal and poorly understood. What one can say is that I believe, and that I have deepened theologically, and that I have tried to incorporate the data and secrets of faith into my music. Other composers, such as Johann Sebastian Bach, have done the same. Bach dealt with certain contents of faith during his life, others not; I have highlighted other contents than he, and others have not.

When asked whether he ever knew "lajoie mystique" during composing, a moment of enlightenment, of certainty, Messiaen answered resolutely:
No, not at all. When I work, there are so many things that require immediacy, so many details to arrange that I cannot pay attention to what I do. So I don't experience what you mean. I don't contemplate, I act

It may be clarifying to reflect on the fact that his only opera is devoted to Franciskus.


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## millionrainbows

Messiaen did experience music as color, called _synesthesia. _As I understand it, he was a mystic Catholic, and this implies some sort of direct experience as opposed to blind faith. So if it is a distortion to say that he was "simply a man of faith," it would likewise be a distortion to say otherwise.


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## PeterFromLA

The great Messiaen pianist, Peter Serkin, has passed away. His performances of Vingt regards and (with Tashi) the Quatuor pour la fin du temps, are landmarks of the literature. His performance of Visions de l'Amen (with another legendary pianist, Yuji Takahashi) also ranks highly in my estimation. I also recommend his CD of Takemitsu solo piano pieces.

I hadn't heard much from his corner in recent years. It's quite saddening that this was the news we received.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/02/01/arts/music/peter-serkin-dead.html


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## millionrainbows

Yes, sorry to hear of Peter Serkin's passing. One of my first classical LP purchases was Tashi and the Messiaen _Quartet for the End of Time._


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## Janspe

Does anyone know if the text of _La mort du nombre_ is accessible anywhere online in its original French version? I've tried looking _everywhere_ but I just can't seem to find it! There is a YouTube video with the score so I could write it down word by word from there, but I'd be neat to have the text in a more convenient package. Any help would be *much* appreciated!


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## msegers

http://www.naomiwoo.com/writing/messiaens-la-mort-du-nombre


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## Janspe

msegers said:


> http://www.naomiwoo.com/writing/messiaens-la-mort-du-nombre


Thanks, but unless I'm missing something, this is only the English translation. As I said in my post, I'm looking for the original French text in particular. It's curiously difficult to find!


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## millionrainbows

mikeh375 said:


> Dear TC'ers, I tend to not gloat much at all, but please for a moment, indulge me and then forgive me.
> 
> I studied composition at one of the most prestigious institutes in the world and have 8 letters after my name. I have worked professionally for 30 years with the UK's finest musicians, have won several professional awards and am a skilled orchestrator, composer and pianist. Apparently despite this provenance I have been missing out on a discipline I have profound knowledge of and worse still, insulting it with my lax ways. Well I'm amazed I've got away with it for so long.
> I will of course consider the opinion of the poster above as I have some respect for him but will immediately discard it as completely objectionable and ignorant because this person cannot possibly perceive of my way of listening, its efficacy on my being and musical spirituality and how it affects me. He is in no position to judge in such a damming way, me or anyone else in this regard and I thank him in advance for not being so presumptuous and frankly, insulting in future posts.


I don't care what your credentials are.


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## Knorf

mikeh375 said:


> ...I will of course consider the opinion of the poster above as I have some respect for him but will immediately discard it as completely objectionable and ignorant because this person cannot possibly perceive of my way of listening, its efficacy on my being and musical spirituality and how it affects me. He is in no position to judge in such a damming way, me or anyone else in this regard and I thank him in advance for not being so presumptuous and frankly, insulting in future posts.


Some people cannot stand that there are others who appreciate and experience art differently from them, and cannot accept that these differences can be just as valid as theirs. It's a sad state, but there it is. We see it often all over the Internet, and sadly even here in an otherwise interesting and enlightening thread about a much-loved composer whose music is so universal in its inspiration and craft that it appeals to listeners very far from the composer's personal experiences and proclivities.

Such people are better disregarded altogether than interacted with.

I, for one, as a fellow composer, hope you will return and continue posting to this thread.


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## mikeh375

millionrainbows said:


> I don't care what your credentials are.


boo hoo, at least I've got some.

Thanks Knorf, its always good to know another composer.


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## starthrower

Don't let the pseudo know it alls and button pushers get you down. Rather than learn from those who have more knowledge or accept an other's approach to listening they will argue endlessly due to pettiness and negativity. Some folks just can't hang up their hang ups when engaging in a public discussion about music or any other subject.


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## mikeh375

starthrower said:


> Don't let the pseudo know it alls and button pushers get you down. Rather than learn from those who have more knowledge or accept an other's approach to listening they will argue endlessly due to pettiness and negativity. Some folks just can't hang up their hang ups when engaging in a public discussion about music or any other subject.


Oh boy Starthrower, you're not wrong there. It's always the wannabes. Thanks, this forum is beginning to lose its appeal.


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## millionrainbows

mikeh375 said:


> Oh boy Starthrower, you're not wrong there. It's always the wannabes. Thanks, this forum is beginning to lose its appeal.


That's Starthrower, my good ol' buddy.
And my good friend and fellow composer mikeh375, 
with assistance from the venerable "Knorf."

Thank you ladies and gentlemen! Welcome back, my friends, to the show that never ends!

Boom! That's the sound of a door slamming. Tragic, isn't it? You all meant so much to me, after all we've been through together...sob...

Now listening to the Yvonne Loriod box set.


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## starthrower

Any opinions on the various recordings of Des Canyons? Chung, Salonen, de Leeuw, Marius Constant? I'm looking to pick up a copy.


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## HenryPenfold

starthrower said:


> Any opinions on the various recordings of Des Canyons? Chung, Salonen, de Leeuw, Marius Constant? I'm looking to pick up a copy.


I adore this work. Perhaps my favourite Messiaen composition. I've been lucky enough to attend two concert performances over the last few years, last time 2019, I think.

You are spoilt for choice concerning recordings. I have four sets. My first was Loriod/Marius Constant on Apex and is very good indeed. I then acquired Sylvain Cambreling's recording and Salonen next.

However, the recording that I came to late, and is head and shoulders my favourite is Myun-Whung Chung on DG. It's superb!

Edit: I see I also have de Leeuw, but I'd forgotten about it (I wonder if that's meaningful?)


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## starthrower

Thanks, Henry! I ordered a cheap copy of the Salonen. But I'll pick up the Chung when I see a good price. I also got a great deal on de Leeuw's La Transfiguration. The Chung has great sound but isn't very exciting. The Dorati is the best but too expensive.


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## HenryPenfold

starthrower said:


> Thanks, Henry! I ordered a cheap copy of the Salonen. But I'll pick up the Chung when I see a good price. I also got a great deal on de Leeuw's La Transfiguration. The Chung has great sound but isn't very exciting. The Dorati is the best but too expensive.


Dorati was my first purchase many moons ago at mid-price! My no.1 choice until Sylvain Cambreling came along!

I haven't heard Chung in La Transfiguration.. He seems to be hit and miss with Messiaen - an excellent Turangalila, a dull Eclairs sur l'au-delà, superb Des Canyons ............


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## starthrower

The only Eclairs I have is by Rattle and I haven't listened to it for quite a while. I'm not a big fan of Turangalila so my CD by Chailly is sufficient. Sometimes I'll watch the live performance with Joanna Macgregor on YT.


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## Merl

HenryPenfold said:


> I adore this work. Perhaps my favourite Messiaen composition. I've been lucky enough to attend two concert performances over the last few years, last time 2019, I think.
> 
> You are spoilt for choice concerning recordings. I have four sets. My first was Loriod/Marius Constant on Apex and is very good indeed. I then acquired Sylvain Cambreling's recording and Salonen next.
> 
> However, the recording that I came to late, and is head and shoulders my favourite is Myun-Whung Chung on DG. It's superb!
> 
> Edit: I see I also have de Leeuw, but I'd forgotten about it (I wonder if that's meaningful?)


I have a friend who is a Messiaen nut and he swears by that Chung recording. He says he's never returned to any other since he got it, Henry.


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## Josquin13

I've liked the Sylvan Cambreling box set (well enough) when I want to hear excellent performances in very good sound (from Hänssler), which is always an attractive bonus in Messiaen's music.

I agree that Chung's series is hit and miss, but with more hits than misses. Yes, his Canyons is very worthwhile, and I prefer Muraro to several other pianists in this music: 



. But Chung & Cambreling aren't my first choices.

For me, the foremost interpreter of the music of Messiaen in the second half of the 20th century was the late Reinbert de Leeuw. For example, I'd consider the following box set from the Netherlands Wind Ensemble to be essential in any Messiaen collection: 



.

De Leeuw's Canyons is also brilliant: https://www.amazon.com/Olivier-Mess...swatch_0?_encoding=UTF8&qid=1631812683&sr=1-2. I don't think a conductor can do full justice to this music, without having first visited these astonishing canyons (& National Parks), where Messiaen received his inspiration, and to my ears, De Leeuw sounds like he's been to these places and likewise experienced their stillness, quietude, eeriness, starkness, beauty, immensity & grandeur (as have I--in both Bryce & Zion, but not Cedar Breaks). In other words, De Leeuw gets the sense of place in this music better than most, in my view: 




I also wouldn't want to be without the comprehensive 18 CD Erato/Warner box set (which used to be an incredible bargain set, & I hope it still is...), and I consider Marius Constant's Canyons with pianist Yvonne Loriod to be essential in any Messiaen collection, as well (it's also available individually in a discount CD). The set includes some of Messiaen's own performances, which needless to say, are essential, too (as are those of his 2nd wife, Loriod). (EDIT: I've just checked, and unfortunately, this set is no longer a screaming bargain on Amazon, where it once sold for under $30. It's a shame they can't keep it in print & inexpensive, indefinitely: https://www.amazon.com/Messiaen-18CD-Olivier/dp/B000A2ACWO)

Next, I also think that Pierre Boulez can be excellent in Messiaen's music. The following two DG discs make interesting, complimentary choices to & after De Leeuw:

The following is another one of my favorite Messiaen discs, who like many French composers was, for me, often at his best when writing for the female voice: 









Here too are some live Boulez performances: 




Lastly, I'm also partial to Riccardo Chailly's spectacular recording of the Turangalila-Symphonie: 



. Although critic David Hurwitz prefers Antoni Wit's performance on Naxos, which I've not heard, but I see that the CD has won numerous awards, so it may well be a first choice: https://www.naxos.com/catalogue/item.asp?item_code=8.554478-79.

Other conductors are good in Messiaen, but they seldom sound quite as authentic & interesting to me (as those I've mentioned above). They are more like actors that give slightly more superficial, less knowing performances. Some of them can even sound a tad less committed to me. Like they're on the outside, looking in.

P.S. My most recent Messiaen 'find' is this excellent disc of the composer's early vocal & chamber music, which contains works that were all written in Messiaen's twenties: Interestingly, the "Chants de terre et de ciel" song cycle was composed to his 1st wife, using his own texts. Suzie LeBlanc's singing of all these songs is remarkable, and more than up to the challenge that the songs present--i.e., her intonation is flawless, & there's no operatic screechiness, which so often afflicts sopranos' performances of French chansons. It's a rewarding & recommendable issue, and comes in 'state of the art' audiophile sound (from Atma): 



.


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## joen_cph

starthrower said:


> Any opinions on the various recordings of Des Canyons? Chung, Salonen, de Leeuw, Marius Constant? I'm looking to pick up a copy.


I've got those 4 versions, but IMO the differences between the various recordings are rather subtle and not really that important. My overall favourite & the first I heard, is Constant, though. But it's not necessarily "the best'.


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## starthrower

Josquin, thanks for all of your suggestions. You always come up with some interesting recordings that are generally under the radar of most listeners. I have the de Leeuw La Transfiguration on the way so I'm looking forward to that performance. And I've never listened to Des Canyons all the way through because Messiaen's music does not translate through a pair of small computer speakers. I'm looking forward to the CD.


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## Chatellerault

Josquin13 said:


> I agree that Chung's series is hit and miss, but with more hits than misses. Yes, his Canyons is very worthwhile, and I prefer Muraro to several other pianists in this music:
> 
> 
> 
> . But Chung & Cambreling aren't my first choices.
> 
> For me, the foremost interpreter of the music of Messiaen in the second half of the 20th century was the late Reinbert de Leeuw.


Allow me to disagree. I think Chung is the safest choice for Messiaen and I've enjoyed all of his recordings. Excellent choice of pianists (Muraro for Canyons and Trois Petites Liturgies, Loriod for Turangalila) and good sound, with the big orchestral masses not sounding harsh. I like my Messian with that kind of "hammerless" sound that Debussy wrote about.

Reinbert de Leeuw's CD that you recommended (with Oiseaux Exotiques, 7 Haikai etc) features good playing but it hurts my ears at times, both the wind orchestra and the piano by Peter Donohoe. By the way I've heard Donohoe play live the complete "Vingt Regards" and he's an amazing Messian pianist, but not so much in that recording.

I didn't listen to de Leeuw's recording of "Des canyons". Another one to check in this particular work is Eschenbach/LPO.


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## gvn

I think _Des Canyons..._ is a really extraordinary, many-sided work, the sort of thing that not only permits but _demands_ a great diversity of approaches--quite possibly a greater diversity than it has yet had.

I've just spent a very pleasant couple of days revisiting the recordings on my shelves, and, if pressed to choose among them, I would choose _both_ Chung _and_ de Leeuw! I feel that both of them, in very different ways, plumb very deep into the heart of this amazing music, and I couldn't possibly rank one of them above the other.

I totally agree, also, with Josquin13's praise of the big Erato/Warner Messiaen Edition that includes the Loriod/Constant _Des Canyons_ and much else of similar caliber. This is _exactly_ the piano timbre & style that Messiaen heard in his imagination when he was composing the work--I think, even if we didn't know that to be the case, the playing sounds so totally right at every point that we might well guess it.

Even when the work was brand new, it seemed to me to have the word "Masterpiece" written all over it, and I don't feel that one note of it has lost its power in the past half-century. At the time, I thought it might well be the final culmination of Messiaen's career (I was very young, and he was in his late 60s, which seemed to me the absolute terminal stage of senile dementia). Little did I know how much was still to come!


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## Enthusiast

HenryPenfold said:


> I adore this work. Perhaps my favourite Messiaen composition. I've been lucky enough to attend two concert performances over the last few years, last time 2019, I think.
> 
> You are spoilt for choice concerning recordings. I have four sets. My first was Loriod/Marius Constant on Apex and is very good indeed. I then acquired Sylvain Cambreling's recording and Salonen next.
> 
> However, the recording that I came to late, and is head and shoulders my favourite is Myun-Whung Chung on DG. It's superb!
> 
> Edit: I see I also have de Leeuw, but I'd forgotten about it (I wonder if that's meaningful?)


I doubt that your forgetting de Leeuw's recording is meaningful - it's very good. I do agree that we are spoiled for choice with this work. I know all those you mention except the Cambreling and find them all very good.


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## fluteman

I saw the recommendation above of Gunilla von Bahr for Le merle noir, and she is a fine player, but for me the best one by far is that by the formidable Philippe Bernold. This is an excellent CD in general of some of the main 20th century standards for flute:


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## composingmusic

starthrower said:


> The only Eclairs I have is by Rattle and I haven't listened to it for quite a while. I'm not a big fan of Turangalila so my CD by Chailly is sufficient. Sometimes I'll watch the live performance with Joanna Macgregor on YT.


Was lucky enough to catch a concert performance of Eclairs with LSO and Rattle, that was quite an amazing experience!

A few of my favourite works include the Poèmes pour mi, Vingt Regards, and Des Canyons.


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## Janspe

composingmusic said:


> A few of my favourite works include the Poèmes pour mi, Vingt Regards, and Des Canyons.


I _adore_ Poèmes pour Mi, it's such a fantastic early work! I remember first discovering it through Boulez's recording and finding it totally, amazingly dazzling - it was one of the first works that got me into Messiaen. I might relisten to it tonight actually...


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## composingmusic

Janspe said:


> I _adore_ Poèmes pour Mi, it's such a fantastic early work! I remember first discovering it through Boulez's recording and finding it totally, amazingly dazzling - it was one of the first works that got me into Messiaen. I might relisten to it tonight actually...


Yes, Poèmes pour Mi is a fantastic piece! It was written pretty close to when Pascal was born, if I've got my dates right. Probably one of the happier periods in Messiaen's life, before the war and before Claire started to suffer memory problems.


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