# L. Beethoven



## Rondo

This new forum section has shown to be a pretty good idea. I guess I'll contribute by adding a classic, one of the "Three B's": Beethoven. 
For a while my exposure had mainly been limited to his symphonies, sonatas and concertos. After that, I discovered just how much more there really is out there.

Outside of the "main" repertoire (symphonies, concertos and sonatas), some favorites include:

Choral Fantasy in C minor
_The Consecration of the House_
_Egmont_
_The Ruins of Athens_
_Wellington's Victory_ (hard to ignore)
_Fidelio_/ _Leonore_
and _Coriolan_


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## opus67

And that's just his orchestral output. 

String Quartets
Violin Sonatas - Kreutzer and Spring
Piano Trios - Archduke and Ghost
Cello Sonatas - I'm familiar with only #3 and very much like it.


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## EricIsAPolarBear

I just got those violin sonatas, one of my favourite cds.


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## Ephemerid

*Symphony No. 6 *has always been a favourite of mine-- the first piece of classical music I *really* just sat down and listened to as a kid.

The power of the the *ninth symphony *still amazes me.

*Piano Concerto No. 5 *is wonderful (but I love it most for the second movement)

I'm a sucker for *Piano Sonata No. 14 *if the 1st movement is actually taken at a slow tempo (I find Pollini's recording of it very good in that respect).

Most of all, I love Beethoven for the *string quartets*, particularly 12-16. The 15th & 16th are probably my favourites. The Julliard Quartet has an excellent recording of the 16th and is essential listening IMO.

Beethoven's final string quartets would probably be among my "desert island" collection.


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## artisan

I seem to be drawn to fast minor stuff, and being a beethoven fan, then of course I like sonatas no.8 Pathetique 1rst and 3rd movement, have been memorizing no. 17 Tempest, and also like his rondos, especially The Rage Over A Lost Penny.
Others of my favorites include the Emperor concerto, piano sonata Appassionata, Moonlight sonata, a violin sonata, and most of his symphonies. I am rather limited in my repertoire, but I sure like what I've heard.


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## World Violist

I've not heard much Beethoven, but the pieces I have heard were immensely powerful and then beautifully melodic and delicate. What instantly springs to mind is the slow movement of the third symphony, especially the fugue in the middle. Perfect!

As for the quartets, they are excellent and some of the greatest quartets ever written, all 16 of them.


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## Chi_townPhilly

In "another place," someone posed the chestnut "whose complete works would you retain, if you were denied all others?" Even though my reputation as a "Wagnerolator" is following in my wake, I'd have to say that "Beethoven" is still my answer to _that _question.

To cite the Pink Floyd lyric... "does anybody else in here/feel the way I do?"


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## Methodistgirl

I just love Beethoven's 9th symphony. I'm usually in tears after it's over. :weeping
smiley:
judy tooley


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## David C Coleman

Just about everything really. I especially like the late quartets and the piano sonatas..Also Missa Solemnis..Just one amazing man!!!!


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## YsayeOp.27#6

opus67 said:


> Violin Sonatas - Kreutzer and Spring


Do you not enjoy the amazing fourth sonata?


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## BuddhaBandit

It seems like we're missing some BIG items: 

The sublime *Missa Solemnis*
The charming *"Archduke" Piano Trio*
The flawed, but interesting *Diabelli Variations*


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## Rachovsky

I've just recently really began listening to his Symphony No. 7. 
It ranks closely behind his 9th and 5th for me..


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## BuddhaBandit

Rachovsky said:


> I've just recently really began listening to his Symphony No. 7.
> It ranks closely behind his 9th and 5th for me..


The 7th is great. It sounds like one large dance- all the rhythms have a certain levity and sweep to them. Gotta love that first movement theme.


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## opus67

YsayeOp.27#6 said:


> Do you not enjoy the amazing fourth sonata?


I haven't heard it yet.



BuddhaBandit said:


> It seems like we're missing some BIG items:
> 
> The charming *"Archduke" Piano Trio*


Were we?  



Rachovsky said:


> I've just recently really began listening to his Symphony No. 7.
> It ranks closely behind his 9th and 5th for me..





BuddhaBandit said:


> The 7th is great. It sounds like one large dance- all the rhythms have a certain levity and sweep to them. Gotta love that first movement theme.


The 7th's just wonderful! I agree with BB about the dance-like rythms, especially in the final two movements. I've said this before: Kleiber does wonderful things in those last movements in the recording that's paired with the 5th. And the second movement reminds me of the funeral march from the _Eroica_.


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## Rondo

The Eighth (though not as highly-regarded) has a nice dance theme in the second mv't. I actually heard it on a television commercial not too long ago, believe it or not.


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## YsayeOp.27#6

opus67 said:


> I haven't heard it yet.


Pure Beethoven:


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## Rachovsky

BuddhaBandit said:


> The 7th is great. It sounds like one large dance- all the rhythms have a certain levity and sweep to them. Gotta love that first movement theme.


Yes the first movement is my favorite. I especially the love the climax at the end of the movement with the quick, jaunty little five second violin dancing (not sure how else to say it.) And I like the Allegretto in this symphony much better than that of the Cantabile (3rd mov) in this 9th symphony, so thats nice.


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## opus67

YsayeOp.27#6 said:


> Pure Beethoven:


Thanks for the link. Will check it out. Dvorak's VC currently on now.


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## Artemis

There are several web-based Beethoven reference sites. Some are generally easy to find by Googling, and following the links etc. Others take a little more exploratory effort. The same applies to similar sites for many other composers.

Just in case anyone might be interested, among the Beethoven sites that I have looked at in the past and retained in my list of bookmarks here are some that are quite useful. There's a lot of repetition, but overall they cover many aspects of perhaps the greatest of all composers.

http://www.lvbeethoven.com/Bio/BiographyLudwig.html
http://www.all-about-beethoven.com/index.html
http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio3/beethoven/revolutionary.shtml
http://www.edepot.com/beethoven.html
http://www.musicweb-international.com/Scott/Scottbook/chapter4.htm
http://www.naxos.com/composerinfo/Ludwig_van_Beethoven/25976.htm
http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=...ldqs5tsOj3eRrPTvPMLt6fF4Q&hl=en#PRA1-PA101,M1
https://www.vanrecital.com/events/concert_notes.cfm?concertid=138&type=youth
http://www.dorak.info/music/beeth.html
http://park.org/Guests/Beethoven/mature.htm
http://www.learnedcounsel.com/counterpoint.htm
http://www.gutenberg.org/files/15141/15141-h/15141-h.htm
http://mx.geocities.com/sergio_bolanos/biograph.htm


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## opus67

Thanks a bunch, Artemis.


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## Artemis

opus67 said:


> Thanks a bunch, Artemis.


You are very welcome. Here is another which covers several German composers:

http://www.gutenberg.org/files/17461/17461-h/17461-h.htm#2H_4_0006

I have lots of other such web sources for several major composers, and I've read the whole lot. They're all good fun to read.

The trick is find a few good sources and follow the links. Never throw anything useful away because you may have a devil of a job finding it again when you need it. It's a good idea to set up a list of composers on your "favourites". You'll soon find that such sources offer a vast wealth of useful information, which comes in very handily for active participation in music Boards.


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## opus67

Artemis said:


> You are very welcome. Here is another which covers several German composers:
> 
> http://www.gutenberg.org/files/17461/17461-h/17461-h.htm#2H_4_0006


Super!



> I have lots of other such web sources for several major composers, and I've read the whole lot. They're all good fun to read.
> 
> The trick is find a few good sources and follow the links. Never throw anything useful away because you may have a devil of a job finding it again when you need it. It's a good idea to set up a list of composers on your "favourites". You'll soon find that such sources offer a vast wealth of useful information, which comes in very handily for active participation in music Boards.


Do we have a thread for classical music websites? If not, one should be started as a repository of techncial/non-technical references, historical references, biographies, catalogues, etc.


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## SamGuss

opus67 said:


> Do we have a thread for classical music websites? If not, one should be started as a repository of techncial/non-technical references, historical references, biographies, catalogues, etc.


I second this - it would be a great help for all of us, but also for us newbs who outside the names, might not know much about the composers, the conductors, orchestra's, the difference between periods of classical music, a nocturne and an etude, ect.

As for the topic of this thread, I have really gotten into Beethoven's 9th symphony this last week and it is a toss up which I like more his 9th with Bernstein or his 5th with Kleiber.


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## diabelli27

Rachousky,I just joined today, can you explain what you mean by "flawed" when speaking about Beethoven Diabelli variations? yes, I too claim Beethoven as my favorite of all, & the Diabelli I think of as the greatest regarding piano variations


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## Rachovsky

diabelli27 said:


> Rachousky,I just joined today, can you explain what you mean by "flawed" when speaking about Beethoven Diabelli variations? yes, I too claim Beethoven as my favorite of all, & the Diabelli I think of as the greatest regarding piano variations


You mean Buddha Bandit, I said nothing about the Diabelli Variations.


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## shsherm

I have often thought that if Beethoven had written only the string quartets and piano sonatas and nothing else, he would still be one of the greatest if not the greatest composers in all of music history.


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## diabelli27

BuddhaBandit could you clarify your comment on Beethoven's"Flawed variations",thanks


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## Rachovsky

Beethoven's ninth playing on WQXR.com right now. Daniel Barenboim conducting  go listen


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## Bach

The late quartets are probably the best pieces of music ever scored, along with the likes of The Art of Fugue and Tristan und Isolde.


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## Chi_townPhilly

*Beethoven symphonies 5 & 7*

I'm currently working my way through George Grove's tome- _Beethoven & His Nine Symphonies_. Now, Sir George has an honored place in musical writing, and his name will be remembered for as long as anyone is in need of musical reference. Also, of course, the author's appreciation and love for these works comes through. I did, however, encounter this interesting passage regarding the 5th symphony:

"Beethoven was really [the modern Romantic movement's] prophet, and the C minor symphony was its first great and assured triumph."

Now, I lean towards the Romantic, aesthetically, and the idea of claiming Beethoven's 5th for Romanticism has a certain appeal... but can we- in good conscience- make that claim? I think part of the reason why the 5th symphony is the most famous of Beethoven's many famous works is that it defies this easy categorization. Romantic and Classical elements are there throughout, yet the great unity of it all is unaffected by this seeming contradiction. It really exists on a plane where the labels _get in the way_ of our understanding of it.

_"Pastoral"_ fans might quibble with me... but I think the original and best continously great Romantic symphony is Beethoven's 7th. AND-- I think one of the keys to a successful interpretation of it is that it be _conducted_ that way!! If you look through its score (and I was delighted to have the opportunity to do so, while contrasting Karajan's and Kleiber's versions), you'll find that a frequently repeated performance enjoinder is "_dolce_." Of all of Beethoven's symphonic canon, I believe this work may be the LEAST responsive to period-instrument astringencies.

Off-topic- apparently, I'm better known as a Wagnerian- but I think there's a kind of justice in making this numerically significant post in the thread of the Master of Masters... so to you, Ludwig Van... post #500.


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## Weston

Chi_town/Philly said:


> "Beethoven was really [the modern Romantic movement's] prophet, and the C minor symphony was its first great and assured triumph."


Maybe I'm taking this out of context, and who am I to question Grove, but I would think the 3rd Symphony was the real beginning of his symphonic progression toward Romantism, and long before that perhaps the Piano Sonata No. 5. He really starts to throw convention out the window early on.

To me it is the composers who either bring about the greatest transitions or those who stand at the pinnacle of achievement for a period that are the most interesting and sublime. Thus Bach, who did not assist in the transition to style gallant, stood as the epitomy of baoque music at its very end. Composers like Debussy are not considered the epitomy of the Romantic movement, but rather helped to bring about the radical changes that lead to Modernist music. But Beethoven . . .

Beethoven stood as both the epitomy of the Classical Era and the pivotal shaman showing us the way to the Romantic period to follow and beyond. To me, no others before or since have quite compared.


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## opus67

He was Beethovenian.


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## World Violist

opus67 said:


> He was Beethovenian.


Too accurate!


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## IchGrolleNicht

My two favorite pieces of alllll time are the second mvt. of his 8th piano sonata and his Symphony No. 9. I also love love love Symphony No. 3 and his Violin Concerto in D maj, particularly the second and third mvts.


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## Christi

Was he deaf ???


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## David C Coleman

Christi said:


> Was he deaf ???


Christi, I and others think your posts are absurd! even the most casual listener/observer knows that Beethoven was deaf.
Why don't you think of something more inventive and oiginal to say. or you just having a laugh with us??...


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## Knaves13

Ah yes the Spanish composer L. Beethoven. (Victor Borge joke, I know he's not Spanish, don't get all up in arms)

Beethoven is probably my favorite composer. His works express more emotion to me than most other composers. I get much more out of listening to his works than most others.


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## PostMinimalist

As a fore-runner of the Romantic movement I think we should consider only the 6th Symphony as belonging whole-heartedly to it. There are some romantic sounding sections in earlier symphonies, notably the 3rd but the focus was on balance, symmetry and structural solidity. The melodic matrerial in the 6th may not be the most dramatic of all Beethoven but the idea of structuring a symphony on a stream of human emotions is at the core the of the Romantic Ideal. Like the Symphony Fantasique by Berlioz and Harold in Italy (idem.) structure yeilds to the demands of a narrative, to a human story, in other words to express human emotions. 
FC


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## World Violist

I've been looking into a set of the piano sonatas, and Friedrich Gulda's second set looks very good from what I've read about them. What do you guys think? (Bear in mind; I have no CDs of any of the Beethoven piano sonatas--I know, I'm deprived.)


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## Atabey

Gulda is superb.He is one of my top 5 when it comes to Beethoven.However watch out WV.We have quite differing tastes in orchestral music,we may also differ in enstrumental.


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## Yagan Kiely

> He was Beethovenian.


I prefer Beethovelian.



> I would think the 3rd Symphony was the real beginning of his symphonic progression toward Romantism


*cough*Mozart's melody*cough*


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## Lang

My favourite Beethoven is from the last period of his life. I love the late quartets, but with the exception of the Grosse Fuge, they don't seem to me to have the transcendental quality of the late piano music. The last few piano sonatas are very powerful, and transporting works. And, oddly enough, the last two sets of Bagatelles seem to me to have an other-worldly aesthetic which I find completely transporting, and which are among my favourite Beethoven works.


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## Whistlerguy

I can't believe no one posted in this thread since February 2009. It's 17 months!
Probably Beethoven's position is so firmly established that there's just no need to discuss it 
Whatever was the reason for inactivity, I'd like to see some revival in this thread!


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## Weston

I just bought the Daniel Barenboim Diabelli Variations. I want to rip it to mp3 to upload to my iPod, but I can't decide if I should make each variation a separate file, thereby risking them being played at random and out of context, or make it all one big unwieldy hour long file. I'm not sure this theme is welcome for an entire hour. Is this piece a bit of a white elephant in Beethoven's catalog or am I just listening with modern ADHD ears? So far this is clearly not going to be among my favorite Beethoven works. I guess I prefer the theme and variations form when it's part of another context, like a movement of a piano sonata -- or when it's not quite so long-winded.

(Ahh - I should just make them separate files and listen with shuffle off if I want to hear the whole thing.)


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## anshuman

Hi Beethoven lovers,
BBC radio3 has come up this week with all the five piano concertos played by Paul Lewis and the BBC Symphony Orchestra. check it out.


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## hocket

I'm always astonished when I read (as I do in this thread) that Beethoven was not a Romantic or that he was merely a forerunner of Romanticism. At some point Classical music theory became dominated by an obsession with formal definitions. I have to say that I consider this to be very misleading -especially where Romanticism is concerned. This approach simply would not stand up on its' own in any other artistic medium.

In Arthur Lovejoy's essay 'On the Discrimination of Romanticism' (published 1948) he recounts how Monsieurs Dupuis and Cotonet of Le Ferte-sous-Jouarre embarked on a project to discover what Romanticism is by aquiring as many definitions and exemplums from respected authorities as they could. It is recorded that it caused them 'twelve years of suffering'. Eventually they gave up in confusion.

I could go on about this but hopefully that will serve as an example of why I think that attempts to define Romanticism are doomed to failure. Attempting to do so through formalist means is hopelessly limited. Romanticism is about attitude and temperament, not about the techniques used to express them. It is conceptual not technical. Whilst in many respects dated, I thought that Kenneth Clark's 'Civilization' cut through the crap and got to the heart of the matter about Beethoven and about Romanticism. Beethoven's music is about tearing up the Classical order, upsetting the balance, knocking over the tea tray, smashing the windows, tearing off your clothes and howling at the moon. It's about breaking through perceived limitations.

That's why Beethoven is not music for polite drawing rooms in the way that Mozart or Haydn (even in Sturm and Drang) are. In fact you just know that Beethoven would've had a proper strop if he discovered fine ladies talking about shopping over one of his pieces, whereas Mozart and Haydn would probably have considered it suitably genteel. Beethoven's music is as pointed and aggressive as any punk rock, and just as keen to puncture perceptions. That's what made it the ideal music for Alex in 'A Clockwork Orange'. He's got something to say and he's prepared to shout if need be.

Beethoven is a Romantic from at least the 3rd Symphony onwards, but not just *a* Romantic but *the* Romantic. IMO there is no more Romantic composer than Beethoven (not even Wagner or Strauss). The rest must travel in his wake. I'm not saying that the formal developments have nothing to do with Romanticism. They are significant. However, they developed in order to help express the things that Romanticism aspired to; they are not Romanticism itself and Romanticism could exist without them.

Anyway, Beethoven defines what Romanticism is for me in the same way that Wordsworth or Shelley do in poetry or Turner does in painting so when people say he's not Romantic, or only proto-Romantic, I am truly flabbergasted.


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## Toccata

hocket said:


> I'm always astonished when I read (as I do in this thread) that Beethoven was not a Romantic or that he was merely a forerunner of Romanticism.
> ...
> 
> Anyway, Beethoven defines what Romanticism is for me in the same way that Wordsworth or Shelley do in poetry or Turner does in painting so when people say he's not Romantic, or only proto-Romantic, I am truly flabbergasted.


Comments like yours - "I am truly flabbergasted" - are meaningless coming from someone with no proven credentials. For all we know, you could be an 18-year schoolboy with a few dozen CDs and having just read some Wiki article on Beethoven.

There have been many discussions on this topic both here and on other boards. I can't be bothered to dig out all the previous threads here, but in any case the best ones I've seen were on another board.

People who have been around this circuit more times than you (and in my estimation who know a lot more than you do) would say that Weber had the best claim to being the first major Romantic, followed by Schubert, and then followed by Beethoven who was in a much borderline position because he very largely retained Classical methods throughout his career.


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## mueske

Opal said:


> Comments like yours - "I am truly flabbergasted" - are meaningless coming from someone with no proven credentials. For all we know, you could be an 18-year schoolboy with a few dozen CDs and having just read some Wiki article on Beethoven.
> 
> There have been many discussions on this topic both here and on other boards. I can't be bothered to dig out all the previous threads here, but in any case the best ones I've seen were on another board.
> 
> People who have been around this circuit more times than you (and in my estimation who know a lot more than you do) would say that Weber had the best claim to being the first major Romantic, followed by Schubert, and then followed by Beethoven who was in a much borderline position because he very largely *retained Classical methods throughout his career.*


And where then do we put Brahms exactly?


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## Toccata

mueske said:


> And where then do we put Brahms exactly?


Good point but there has been far less forum debate about Brahms purely because he was active in the middle of the Romantic era. In that sense he was obviously a Romantic composer, but in terms of style and method I don't believe he wasn't that different from Beethoven, whose main successor many saw him to be and who no doubt he tried to emulate.


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## hocket

*Opal wrote:*



> Comments like yours - "I am truly flabbergasted" - are meaningless


In the sense that the bits you quoted are quite clearly expressions of entirely subjective opinion then yes you are right. You seem to have decided to ignore the actual argument that I made in between in its' entirety though.



> from someone with no proven credentials.


The only credentials one needs to listen and make judgements about music is the possession of functioning ears. That is the medium by which music communicates. Obviously having a discerning judgement would be a big help.



> For all we know, you could be an 18-year schoolboy with a few dozen CDs and having just read some Wiki article on Beethoven.


Apart from the obviously offensive tone I should point out that your attitude of only heeding supposed experts is one I consider both stupid and ignorant. It's virtually the definition of a closed mind. I would judge an 18 year old's opinions on their merits rather than the background that informs them. Yes, experience has plenty of value but so do fresh perspectives (not that I am claiming to be novel -I'm speaking hypothetically).



> People who have been around this circuit more times than you (and in my estimation who know a lot more than you do)


Well I'm not remotely musical, and I certainly don't claim to be an expert on Beethoven. I do know a bit about Romanticism though and I find the terms under which it is commonly defined in Classical music circles to be utterly flawed in its' approach. Saying that 'other people disagree with you and they know more than you do, so there' isn't much of a response IMHO. The whole point is that I am disagreeing with the supposed orthodoxy.



> followed by Beethoven who was in a much borderline position because he very largely retained Classical methods throughout his career.


Don't you think that re-stating precisely the argument that I am critiquing as proof of your position is somewhat redundant?

Perhaps it will help if I restate my position. Romanticism is conceptual not technical and to define Beethoven as not being Romantic or only partially Romantic through technical analysis of his work is a hopelessly flawed approach.


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## anshuman

Though technical analysis of Beethoven's music might prove that his harmonic manipulations were less advanced than,let's say Weber or even a relatively lesser known figure like Dussek,his assertiveness, loudness as well as the exploration of the poetic side of the Self is what ( in my opinion) makes him a romantic. Beethoven did not go into narrative much(the 'Pastoral' is rather an exception) nor was prone to link his music with his life as was the case with the Romantics like Schumann and Berlioz. He also did not delve much into the Folk.the Primitive as some of the Herderians. However he questioned the grace and elegance of the classical idiom much more than Mozart of 'Sturm and Drang'. In his music (beginning from the Eroica) we see a restless searching after something elusive,the rejection of neat codas,the relentless dialectic of the public and the private. In short,we see conflict,drama,as we never saw before. Of course all these are subjective reflections which a more scholarly analysis can easily question. Charles rosen has done precisely that in his book.


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## hocket

*anshuman wrote:*



> his assertiveness, loudness as well as the exploration of the poetic side of the Self is what ( in my opinion) makes him a romantic.


Whilst most of what you wrote is undoubtedly above my pay grade, I am obviously in broad agreement with this statement. As far as things like 'harmonic manipulations', or linking his music to himself, I don't believe that defining Beethoven as not Romantic because he doesn't do things that those that came after him did is a valid approach. What makes him a Romantic is the difference between him and his immedite predecessors and what he has in common conceptually and temperamentally with the Romanticism of other artists in other mediums where Romanticism either had been, or was in the process of being, established (basically meaning poetry and painting). Which amounts to much the same thing as 'exploration of the poetic side of the Self' -though you might want to lay off the Pater.

P.S. I meant to mention that whilst I could well be wrong I was under the impresion that Beethoven was quite interested in folk music. Not that I think that folk music really has 'owt to do with Romanticism, even though they are commonly associated. Romantics tend to have an interest in folk, that doesn't make it a defining characteristic.


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## Toccata

hocket said:


> *Whilst most of what you wrote is undoubtedly above my pay grade*, I am obviously in broad agreement with this statement.


Don't you realise that this is one of those subjects that's been done to death. There are probably several other threads but I found these two fairly recent examples very quickly:

http://www.talkclassical.com/7897-beethoven-classical-romantic.html

http://www.talkclassical.com/7172-beethoven-classicism.html

Not that you aren't entitled to make your viewpoint known, but you might have made a little more effort than you obviously did to tie up your comments in the relevant thread. You would then have seen that the gist of your comments has all been said before, and that there are counter opinions. When, like me, you've seen the kind of comment made by you trotted out for the umpteenth time, and presented by some musical novice as if it's new and startling, it gets rather boring. In fact, the best thread I have ever seen (far better than anything here on T-C) was on another board, and it convinced me that it is unwise to brand Beethoven as a clear Romantic. As noted by member anshuman, the book by Charles Rosen is relevant and important.


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## hocket

*Opal wrote:*



> Don't you realise that this is one of those subjects that's been done to death.


Yes I do, hence my fustration with seeing the debate frequently argued on what I view to be false terms.



> you might have made a little more effort than you obviously did to tie up your comments in the relevant thread.


Actually I was responding to remarks that I'd read in this thread so I fail to see why I should need to search for another thread addressing similar issues in order to post there.



> You would then have seen that the gist of your comments has all been said before, and that there are counter opinions.


I've read through both the threads that you linked to and neither of them addresses the point that I made. In both threads you see familiar debates about Beethoven being Romantic in temperament and Classical in technique. My point was that the latter is irrelevant and misleading.

The dichotomy was put clearly by *World Violist*:



> Classical style, romantic outlook is how I see Beethoven.


That's exactly the argument that I'm looking to short-circuit. It's not that it's wrong, rather that I believe it's the wrong approach. I stated the view that the technical characteristics that are commonly used to define Romanticism in music are side-effects that developed because of Romanticism rather than being the thing itself. That is why I disagree with the statement that Beethoven is transitional in the Classical/Romantic divide. He may well be transitional in terms of the technical developments and characteristics of the era but in my argument that doesn't make him any less of a Romantic.

I don't imagine for a moment that no one has taken the approch I have before and I'm sorry if that bores you, but I've seen this debate several times on this forum and no one had looked at it the way I do, so when I read similar comments this morning I responded. You haven't bothered to answer or correct my view merely to sneer and patronize me. In order to prove me to be wrong you need to show me why any of the technical devices that are commonly said to be Romantic are essential to something being so and why something without them cannot be Romantic. Either that or you need to point me towards something that does. Since, as you observe, I am a musical novice that shouldn't be too difficult for you.

The Rosen book might be the answer but I can't say that I'm filled with confidence by the summation of it given by *Artemis* in one of those threads:



> Charles Rosen in his book "The Classical Style" argued that Beethoven is one of the three primary exponents (along with Haydn and Mozart) of this style and remained so throughout his career. Beethoven also made little use of genres that were to become central to Romanticism, including the song cycle and piano pieces such as nocturnes. Complicating the matter is that people tend to assume that there was a clear starting point of Romanticism after which all composers were Romantic. This isn't the case. There were major composers in the so-called Romantic period who remained essentially classical, Mendelssohn and Brahms being perhaps the most obvious.
> 
> Romantic traits in music did not just include a greater expression of emotion (in which of course Beethoven excelled), but also a willingness to experiment in new musical forms (e.g. character piano pieces like nocturnes, and personally expressive songs and song cycles), different key structures, and the desire to express through music the power of words and poetry. As the 19th Century progressed, the composers who most clearly exhibited Romantic traits were Berlioz, Chopin, Liszt, Schumann, Wagner, and Tchaikovsky.


All of this is founded on technical grounds and there is no indication that he justifies why that approach is valid in the context that I put forward. In technical terms I don't necessarily object to the view that Beethoven is 'one of the three main exponents' of the Classical style. That also doesn't necessarily mean that he isn't a Romantic. What is significant IMV is whether what he does with that style, and whether the temperament of his music and its' aims are significantly different from those of Haydn and Mozart and also if it has much in common with his Romantic contemporaries in the other artistic mediums. In that context the answer might be that Beethoven isn't transitional between Classical and Romantic but rather that he is both simultaneously. Does anyone know if Rosen's book actually addresses the question I raised, and if so might offer a summary of his conclusions?

As a side note, and it might be more appropriate to comment in the appropriate thread but it would probably cause unnecessary complications, I did notice Aramis's comment about Beethoven being Romantic because he is from the Romantic period. I don't think that's a viable argument, attractive as it might seem. Romanticism does have distinguishing characteristics as an artistic 'movement' in spite of the fact that they have proven singularly difficult to define over the last two hunderd years. I think that you can safely say that neither Jane Austen or Ingres were Romantics even though they thrived during the Romantic era. On that basis I don't think the argument holds up.


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## Toccata

hocket said:


> All of this [reference to quote from an earlier post by another member concerning Charles Rosen] is founded on technical grounds and there is no indication that he justifies why that approach is valid *in the context that I put forward. *


So far as I can see, all you've said in support of your case is "_Beethoven's music is about tearing up the Classical order, upsetting the balance, knocking over the tea tray, smashing the windows, tearing off your clothes and howling at the moon. It's about breaking through perceived limitations"._.

How naive.

Which other Romantic composers do you know of who knocked over tea trays, tore off their clothes, and howled at the moon - albeit in a figurative sense? If that's what you think Romanticism is all about in the context of classical music you are very sadly mistaken. I suggest you do a bit more research on this subject before you say any more.


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## Aramis

> Romanticism does have distinguishing characteristics as an artistic 'movement'


Not in music. If you will try to name all those things chatacteristic for romantic compositions you will end with list of shallow appearances and the only thing that you will be able to apply these rules to will be third-rate music written by composers that didn't create anything and just tried to follow the trends initiated by greats. What does Schumann and Wagner from Hollander-Lohengrin period share in common? Can you name more concrete similiarity than between two composers from two diffrent periods (apart from extremes like Monteverdi and Schoenberg)?


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## Toccata

Here's a nice post from member Post-Minimalist earlier in the thread:



> As a fore-runner of the Romantic movement I think we should consider only the 6th Symphony as belonging whole-heartedly to it. There are some romantic sounding sections in earlier symphonies, notably the 3rd but the focus was on balance, symmetry and structural solidity. The melodic matrerial in the 6th may not be the most dramatic of all Beethoven but the idea of structuring a symphony on a stream of human emotions is at the core the of the Romantic Ideal. Like the Symphony Fantasique by Berlioz and Harold in Italy (idem.) structure yeilds to the demands of a narrative, to a human story, in other words to express human emotions.


This is far more in accord with the defining qualities of Romantic music than "_upsetting the balance, knocking over the tea tray, smashing the windows, tearing off your clothes and howling at the moon". _

I would only add that Romanticism is all about incorporating human emotions into the music, writing songs that describe how you feel, the desire to express through music the power of poetry, and experimenting with new musical forms means of doing so. Beethoven made limited impact here, keeping very largely to traditional forms and writing very little that was strictly outside the confines of absolute music. It was his contemporary, Schubert, who made far more of a splash in heralding the new Romanticism with his enormous contribution to lieder, his chamber works and late piano sonatas which shout out as being different in kind from Beethoven's.

It's a pity that people like Post-Minimalist (and a few others) appear to be no longer here. It's a handful of people like him who really do know what they're talking about, as opposed to so much inconsequential or misleading blather that pervades many of these threads.


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## Aramis

> I would only add that Romanticism is all about incorporating human emotions into the music, writing songs that describe how you feel, the desire to express through music the power of poetry, and experimenting with new musical forms means of doing so.


Who's naive now :< You have just re-written this magnificent definition based on the tea tray metaphore. All your posts in which you pretend to be so omniscient and tell other people to make some research before writing anything seem so laughable now. If you have done so much of research yourself and still throw such meaningless banals on table then I guess you should give up on giving lectures.


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## Toccata

Aramis said:


> Who's naive now :< You have just re-written this magnificent definition based on the tea tray metaphore. All your posts in which you pretend to be so omniscient and tell other people to make some research before writing anything seem so laughable now. If you have done so much of research yourself and still throw such meaningless banals on table then I guess you should give up on giving lectures.


Let's see your summary description of Romantic era music then.

This should be fun as I seldom understand anything you write.


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## Aramis

> Let's see your summary description of Romantic era music then.


I have expressed my point of view above - romanticism is term devoid of specific meaning when it comes to music. You can't name concrete, theoretical features attributable to most of composers. All what "romanticism" stands for is historical period.

You say that it's about incorporating human emotions - this is domain of most periods in music. Does expressionism equal romanticism?

Then you mention experimenting with new musical forms - ever heard of Mendelssohn and many others that did not find Beethoven as prophet of new music whose ideas should be continued, but as a final word in music, impassable model that makes all expermients useless?

Same is with poetry - likes of Lord Byron were given a ticket of romantic poets, but when you look closer, what little meaning this ticket represents.


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## hocket

*Opal wrote:*



> Which other Romantic composers do you know of who knocked over tea trays, tore off their clothes, and howled at the moon - albeit in a figurative sense? If that's what you think Romanticism is all about in the context of classical music you are very sadly mistaken.


Excuse me for trying to put my point in an entertaining manner. I do not think that is all Romanticism, in any context, amounts to. It does, I hope, at least capture the spirit of some, though by no means all, of what distinguished Beethoven from his immediate predecessors. What is notable is that you do not seek to challenge the statement as distinguishing Beethoven from Haydn and Mozart.



> Romanticism is all about incorporating human emotions into the music, writing songs that describe how you feel, the desire to express through music the power of poetry


I would agree with this statement, but not with the coda that 'experimenting with new musical forms' is an essential part of being a Romantic. Yes, Romanticism is certainly characterized by a tendency towards impatience with rules and boundaries, but formal revolutions are not essential characteristics. Romanticism originated in literature and therefore the characteristics that defined it there must therefore be the essential features of it.

Romantic literature is not defined by innovative forms -in fact Romantic poetry is marked by a return to Renaissance forms -'a renaissance of the Renaissance' yet I don't think anyone would suggest that using renaissance techniques was the defining characeristic of Romanticism. Rather it is the ideas that define it-the greater emphasis on the individual and their emotions; 'the self' as a conduit of the aesthetic, a self-conscious interest in the medieval world and arts rather than just honouring the Classical models, an emphasis on movement and excitement rather than on static order and balance.

These are all Romanticisms -and there plenty more of them. Few, if any, artists embody them all but they are part of a broad range of ideas that characterized the era. I would argue that several of them are quite obviously present in Beethoven (as are the traits I quoted from your post) even to the uneducated ear (like mine) in a way that they aren't in his predecessors. Beethoven, in short, did not respect Classical restraint in the way that they did, in fact I'd suggest that he deliberately led an assault on it. Beethoven's music is far more rawly emotional and uncompromising about its commitment to that rather than 'entertainment' than that of his predecessors. I don't believe that the music of any of the other Romantics is any more personal in its' emotionalism than Beethoven's is.

As for Schubert, I wouldn't contest that his work became 'different in kind' but the fact is that he idolised Beethoven and saw himself as following in his footsteps.

*Aramis wrote:*



> If you will try to name all those things chatacteristic for romantic compositions you will end with list of shallow appearances and the only thing that you will be able to apply these rules to will be third-rate music written by composers that didn't create anything and just tried to follow the trends initiated by greats.


I completely agree. You seem to have misunderstood me. I am certainly not trying to apply 'rules' to anything. Nor am I suggesting that being knowledgeable about music and its' techniques isn't a very valuable skill. I am however suggesting that it is irrelevant in this instance when seeking to define what Romanticism is.



> What does Schumann and Wagner from Hollander-Lohengrin period share in common? Can you name more concrete similiarity than between two composers from two diffrent periods (apart from extremes like Monteverdi and Schoenberg)?


You might well ask (and many have) what the poetry of Shelley and Byron have in common. The answer is -not a lot. Yet no one would suggest that they are not both Romantics. What does the painting of Delacroix and Constable have in common?

I would say that Wagner and Schumann do both have traits that are recognizably Romantic though. Schumann's is certainly the more personal and intimate, but Wagner's overt medievalism, love of the melodramatic and imaptience with restarint are unquestionably Romanticisms. Mind you I've always thought that Traume is very intimate. In general though I would agree that they are tempermentally very different and have little in common. That Romanticism has a very loose definition (if at all) is no secret yet it is recognizably different to what came before it in the arts. There are also artists of the period who are recognizably 'unromantic' though, whose work focuses on the aspects that dominated earlier eras (balance, clarity, retraint and taste for instance) rather than on the 'Romanticisms' that I listed earlier. That's why I think that the use of a blanket period based defintion for convenience isn't ideal for individual artists. Such things are used for convenience to characterize a period, not to define everything in them.


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## Toccata

Aramis said:


> I have expressed my point of view above - romanticism is term devoid of specific meaning when it comes to music. You can't name concrete, theoretical features attributable to most of composers. All what "romanticism" stands for is historical period.


That's your view, but it's not the view that is most widely accepted on the subject. Romantic music has more to it than merely saying it's music that was written between certain dates. Romantic music music had certain defining forms and characteristics that most people recognise as being different from the generality of Classical music that preceded it and the impressionist (and other) music that proceeded it. What I wrote (in support of Post Minimalist's comments) should be pretty uncontroversial. What is controversial is how far Beethoven's music can be said to fit this broad model as opposed to the Classical model.


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## Aramis

> Romantic music music had certain defining forms and characteristics that most people recognise as being different from the generality of Classical music that preceded it and the impressionist (and other) music that proceeded it.


Yes, there are some forms and characteristics attributed to romanticism, otherwise there would be no such period. But my point is that all those stuff doesn't merge into one, possible to define musical style called romanticism.


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## hocket

*Aramis wrote:*



> But my point is that all those stuff doesn't merge into one, possible to define musical style called romanticism.


That I most certainly do agree with, and that goes for all the arts not just music. That doesn't lead me to accept that all artists of the romantic era are romantics though (for the reasons I specified earlier).

EDIT: I thought I'd add something going back to your question about Monteverdi and Schoenberg.

As I said earlier, I don't think that Romantic artists can be identified by having traits in common but rather by having a number of traits that are recognizably Romantic. These are traits that are characteristic of the era, but do not constitute a homogenous 'style' as such. I agree with your characterization of these traits as banal, but I think its' a false assumption to expect the traits of an artistic category or style to be anything more than that. By their very nature they are broad characterizations whether they are conceptual or formal in nature. As you rightly said earlier, it is not the way that they conform to a period's stylistic traits that makes a particular artist 'good'. It is merely an observation about their style or ideas that are perceived to be characteristic of the times.

With Monteverdi it struck me that compared to Renaissance-era music his work places far greater emphasis on the individual and their emotional experience. This is certainly a Romantic trait, but perhaps that isn't surprising as the renaissance ideals he aspired to (this is a little confusing as Monteverdi's 'Baroque' music was partially based on the attempt to reveive the arts of the Graeco-Roman world in much the same way that the other arts had done one to two centuries earlier -hence my use of the word renaissance with a small 'r') were in turn a massive influence on Romanticism, as we see in the huge influence that Hamlet had on the Romantic sense of the self. As for Schoenberg I'd really be way too far out of my depth but I should point out that Modernism is actually a form of Romanticism and a direct consequence of it so it is likely that Schoenberg would share a good deal in his outlook with Romantic composers, in spite of the formal differences. However, the formal developments of Modernism do constitute a genuine break with the traditions of the Renaissance (complicated in music by the points I made above in regard to Monteverdi) of which tradition Romanticism is undoubtedly a part. Enough of a paradox for you?

In relation to the larger question at hand I was reading (on Wikipedia actually which should cheer Opal up no end) that as ealy as 1810 ETA Hoffman referred to Haydn, Mozart and Beethoven as all being Romantics. Well, they don't all strike me that way but I do think we should give contemporary views more credence as it was they who experienced the artistic changes of the time first hand. It sems rather presumptuous to redefine an artistic movement that was actually perceived and described at the time according to our own preferences.


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## angusdegraosta

I really enjoyed Osmo Vanska's version of the Sixth - and Harnoncourt's symphonic box set (from the first three that I've heard so far.)


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## RJ Empson

For me personally Ludwig Van Beethoven IS classical music and he summed it up in his own words 

"What you are, you are by accident of birth; what I am, I am by myself. There are and will be a thousand princes; there is only one Beethoven."

He brings so much to the table with each and every piece of music and if it wasn't for him I'd still be listening to dodgy old rock albums instead of gorging my senses with classical.


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## Toccata

RJ Empson said:


> For me personally Ludwig Van Beethoven IS classical music and he summed it up in his own words


Do you have a view on whether LvB was a Classical Composer, Romantic Composer, a bit of both, or something completely different (don't say "alcoholic")?


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## Guest

I think he was the pinnacle of the Classical period, ushering in and foreshadowing what would come next with the Romantics.


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## Guest

angusdegraosta said:


> I really enjoyed Osmo Vanska's version of the Sixth - and Harnoncourt's symphonic box set (from the first three that I've heard so far.)


Vanska's cycle is amazing. I have all the symphonies by both him and Szell, and I slightly prefer Vanska.

I do like Fricsay's 9th, and sometimes, when I'm in the mood for it, I will put on Furtwangler's recording.


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## Guest

It is times like this where I am glad I have no technical musical knowledge, and only listen for the sheer enjoyment, so whether Beethoven was Classical, Romantic, or Rigelian Neoclassical with a twist, it has no bearing on my appreciation. Let the academics quibble over where to put him on the shelf. Just so long as the rest of us have plenty of quality recordings to listen to!


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## Weston

RJ Empson said:


> For me personally Ludwig Van Beethoven IS classical music and he summed it up in his own words


For me, he begins his career with classical and stays firmly planted in it while expanding it and the boundaries of music in general beyond the imagination of his contemporaries. Then toward the end of his life, he doesn't usher in the romantic period exactly, but skips over it completely and heads for parts unknown with works still difficult to fathom today. I'm referring to the late string quartets, the Grosse Fuge, and late piano sonatas now.

He is the first artist hero figure. A giant of mythic proportions.


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## Weston

DrMike said:


> . . . so whether Beethoven was Classical, Romantic, or Rigelian Neoclassical with a twist, it has no bearing on my appreciation.


That's it! He was Rigelian Neoclassical, maybe with a touch of Denebian gamalan.

Have to go rearrange my library now.


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## Guest

Weston said:


> That's it! He was Rigelian Neoclassical, maybe with a touch of Denebian gamalan.
> 
> Have to go rearrange my library now.


See, now some people will swear up and down that they definitely detect Denebian gamalan influences in his music, but me, personally . . . I don't see it. He's way to Galactic mambo to be even considered Torellian gamalan, let alone Denebian gamalan.


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## RJ Empson

We are talking about music and not Star Trek now right? ;p


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## hocket

*Weston wrote:*



> That's it! He was Rigelian Neoclassical, maybe with a touch of Denebian gamalan.
> 
> Have to go rearrange my library now.


Dang it! I have to wipe the cornflakes off the screen now.

*Dr Mike wrote:*



> whether Beethoven was Classical, Romantic, or Rigelian Neoclassical with a twist, it has no bearing on my appreciation.


That seems like a very healthy attitude.



> It is times like this where I am glad I have no technical musical knowledge


I should point out that my argument is based on the premise that you don't need any technical knowledge to distinguish Romanticism. Classicism, it seems to me, is based on a mixture of conceptual and technical traits whilst Renaissance, Baroque and most modernist music can be distinguished almost purely through technical means. Romanticism is different (you do still need technical knowledge to be able to describe in detail the various ways in which Romanticism is expressed though).

*Weston wrote:*



> He is the first artist hero figure. A giant of mythic proportions.


You do realise that 'the artist as hero' is an entirely Romantic conception? The self-image of artists (and how they and their role in society is perceived) are vitally important elements of Romanticism (that still shape our perceptions of them today as your remark reveals) and was shaped by the lives (and deaths) of people like Mozart and Chatterton and the way that they were mythologized. These are also tied to the changes in the social and economic position of artists (and Mozart seems to have fallen through the cracks during the process). Artists began to stop being seen as the servants of the nobility and thse patronage systems came to an end as artists became expected to be free of such constraints, and the potential to make a living soley from the sale of art to a wider public became a reality.

*Dr Mike wrote:*



> Vanska's cycle is amazing.


Yeah, I've got that too. It's ace. It completely altered my appreciation of the 4th.


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## Eroica

Why doesnt anyone pay any attention the the wonderful 3rd? =(

I didnt read the whole thread, but I just want to talk about it lol

Im semi-new to Classical in general, and Im only familiar with a few conductors ie Bernstein, Jarvii, Karajan; would any of you recommend someone who you think is better? I havent found a recording of the Eroica where all of my own tastes in the piece are fulfilled xD

Its so gorgeous.


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## Toccata

Weston said:


> For me, he begins his career with classical and stays firmly planted in it while expanding it and the boundaries of music in general beyond the imagination of his contemporaries. Then toward the end of his life, he doesn't usher in the romantic period exactly, but skips over it completely and heads for parts unknown with works still difficult to fathom today. I'm referring to the late string quartets, the Grosse Fuge, and late piano sonatas now.


I broadly agree with this. Beethoven remained essentially a Classicist composer, as defined in terms of the structure, form, and harmonic etc of his music. He was a transitionary figure in terms of Classicism and Romanticism only in term of the fact that he clearly lived part of his composing life during the early phase of Romanticism, and that some of his later works may appear to have a more emotional edge than was standard in earlier works. The first really great Romantic was Schubert, not Beethoven, in my opinion. The "classical" features of Beethoven's orchestral writing in particular have become even more apparent in consequence of the HIP movement, which has, inter alia, quite rightly moved away from the schmaltzy post Wagnerian performance practice towards a much leaner and slicker style.


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## hocket

*Opal wrote:*



> I broadly agree with this. Beethoven remained essentially a Classicist composer, as defined in terms of the structure, form, and harmonic etc of his music.


The thing is, so do I. I don't beieve that prevents him from being a Romantic as well (and in a way, or to a degree, that I don't think that Mozart or Haydn were). You seem to be ignoring the idea that structure, form and harmonic aren't necessarily the key features of what Romanticism is about -and thus you're just mouthing received wisdom without analysing it.



> The "classical" features of Beethoven's orchestral writing in particular have become even more apparent in consequence of the HIP movement, which has, inter alia, quite rightly moved away from the schmaltzy post Wagnerian performance practice towards a much leaner and slicker style.


Yes, I strongly agree with this too. The difference is that what you view as 'Romantic' performance style I would view as late (or later) Romantic performance style. What is viewed by some as pomposity and self-indulgence in the 'schmaltzy' approach you described has its' paralells elsewhere. Mawkishness and sentimentality are prominent features of the later Romantic poetry of Tennyson or Rupert Brooke (!) compared with the earlier Romantic poets. The same is true of a comparison of the PRB with the likes of Turner, Fuseli or Caspar David Friedrich. A good example to my mind would be a comparison between the 1818 and 1848 editions of Frankenstein. The latter is much flabbier, more sentimental and quite simply far less of a tight package than the original. This seems to me to be a general trend in the Romantic arts (and perhaps a side effect of artists no longer having to please aristocratic patrons and thus becoming more self-indulgent). Surely no one would argue that Tennyson or the PRB are a purer expression of Romanticism than Turner or Wordsworth though? I don't see any reason to presume that the opposite is true in music.

I think that you can perform Beethoven (and to some extent even Haydn and Mozart too) in the later style as some of the necessary elements are in their music and I think too much obloquoy is heaped on some older efforts. To some extent it is fashion and evolving tastes. Nonetheless I do think that the HIP approach is a good deal better and far more convincing.

I came across this article the other day:http://wiki.youngcomposers.com/Music_of_the_Classical_Period

, which I thought was interesting (apparently it's originally from AMG which I must admit I usually find bland and uninspired in its judgements). It tallies with some of the things I've been trying to understand about the Classical period though (and was informative as I was unaware of the key role it ascribes to Durante) and, more pertinently, had this to say about Beethoven; which is probably far more eloquent than I could hope to be:



> Indeed, Ludwig van Beethoven was coming of age as the horrors of the French Revolution and its Reign of Terror challenged the notion that the quest for democracy would lead to a halcyon the Age of Reason. In 1792 Beethoven moved to Vienna from Bonn and soon established himself as the natural heir to Mozart and the aging Haydn. By the end of the decade, however, Beethoven was steamrollering the neat boundaries of Classical forms. Broadly speaking, Beethoven united Classical ideals of abstract form and balance with the concerns that would dominate the Romantic century to come: human nature and experience, the social contract, the power of the natural world. When Beethoven's 50-minute "Eroica" Symphony was premiered in 1803, critics and composers alike thought that he had lost his mind. Long or short, his works took on a scope and intensity that seemed at odds with Classical style even as they maintained its logic. Beethoven redefined the piano sonata as a powerful form of individual expression, wrote string quartets of unparalleled complexity, and turned the concerto into a virtuoso essay on the theme of the individual versus the crowd. With the group of songs called An die ferne Geliebte, he created the song cycle, a genre that was the very essence of emotional subjectivity.
> 
> By the end of the 1810s, younger composers such as Franz Schubert and Franz Berwald began to take the hint that Beethoven was on the right track. In 1824, Beethoven's Ninth Symphony, more than an hour in length, became the new modal of what a symphony could be, embracing a chorus, vocal soloists, and a vision of a new world.


Oh, and just for you *Eroica*, there is mention of the 3rd and its' significance. Still, I'm not sure it really suffers from a lack of attention. It probably does come in third after the 5th and 9th in the popular consciousness but surely it is still one of the most famous pieces of music ever.


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## Guest

Eroica said:


> Why doesnt anyone pay any attention the the wonderful 3rd? =(
> 
> I didnt read the whole thread, but I just want to talk about it lol
> 
> Im semi-new to Classical in general, and Im only familiar with a few conductors ie Bernstein, Jarvii, Karajan; would any of you recommend someone who you think is better? I havent found a recording of the Eroica where all of my own tastes in the piece are fulfilled xD
> 
> Its so gorgeous.


As I mentioned, Vanska does a wonderful job, if you want a newer recording. However, Paavo Jarvi's most recent cycle is also wonderful, although I have not heard the third, and have heard that his slimmed down numbers don't quite do the 9th justice.

But if you want a slightly older recording that is still considered a powerhouse, I would say Szell's recording with the Cleveland Orchestra - I have the entire cycle, and Szell is a great Beethoven conductor. It is also nice that you can get these recordings dirt cheap (the Szell recordings).


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## Toccata

DrMike said:


> As I mentioned, Vanska does a wonderful job, if you want a newer recording.


Vanska/Minnesota performed Beethoven's 9th Symphony a few days ago at the Proms. THIS thread from the BBC's Radio 3 Message Board discusses the performance. On the whole, impressions of those who commented were not that favourable. I must say that I was hardly awe-inspired by the performance, and was expecting better. Generally speaking, this BBC Message Board contains some pretty useful comment. I often glance at it, and would say that the general standard is higher than is typically found on most classical Forums. The general quality of discussion on Forums has, in my opinion, dropped sharply over the past few years, as more and more uninformed novices swarm in and out and add virtually nothing.


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## Guest

Opal said:


> Vanska/Minnesota performed Beethoven's 9th Symphony a few days ago at the Proms. THIS thread from the BBC's Radio 3 Message Board discusses the performance. On the whole, impressions of those who commented were not that favourable. I must say that I was hardly awe-inspired by the performance, and was expecting better. Generally speaking, this BBC Message Board contains some pretty useful comment. I often glance at it, and would say that the general standard is higher than is typically found on most classical Forums. The general quality of discussion on Forums has, in my opinion, dropped sharply over the past few years, as more and more uninformed novices swarm in and out and add virtually nothing.


I can't comment on the quality of the live performance, but I have greatly enjoyed the recordings on BIS. I have multiple recordings of the 9th - Karajan's 1962 recording, Fricsay's, Furtwangler's 1951 recording, Gardiner's recording, Paavo Jarvi's, Gunter Wand/NDRSO, Norrington, as well as the above mentioned Vanska and Szell recordings. Vanska, Fricsay, and Furtwangler tend to top my list in terms of preference. I also know that David Hurwitz, at ClassicsToday rated the Vanska Beethoven cycle very high, with 10s for both Sound and Artistic Quality. These are certainly worth considering, especially with the incredible sound of these recent recordings. I'd still recommend Vanska, but not exclusively. You can't have too many recordings of Beethoven's symphonies.


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## Potiphera

I'm afraid I have gone off Beethoven's symphonies, especially the 7th, which I can no longer listen to, if I hear it on the radio, I switch it off. Has anyone else tired of B's symphonies?


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## regressivetransphobe

Potiphera said:


> Has anyone else tired of B's sypmphonies?


Guilty. I know logically I should like Beethoven more, but how's it go, familiarity breeds contempt? Not that severe, but same idea.


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## tdc

I've never gone through a very big Beethoven symphony phase, though I do really admire certain moments from them, I have rarely sat through an entire Beethoven symphony. Its not that I don't like them though, and I may go through such a phase later. His piano music so far is what really does it for me and that is the Beethoven I go for - mainly his sonatas and piano concertos.


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## kv466

One of my favorite works you won't find in many compilation discs is the 32 Variations in C minor woO, but only as performed by Glenn Gould...I've heard dozens upon dozens of others and although they may be following the written music more correctly, they just lack the strength and wonder of the humming man's rendition


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## Curiosity

Eroica said:


> Why doesnt anyone pay any attention the the wonderful 3rd? =(
> 
> I didnt read the whole thread, but I just want to talk about it lol
> 
> Im semi-new to Classical in general, and Im only familiar with a few conductors ie Bernstein, Jarvii, Karajan; would any of you recommend someone who you think is better? I havent found a recording of the Eroica where all of my own tastes in the piece are fulfilled xD
> 
> Its so gorgeous.


Have you listened to the Savall? It's the benchmark recording of the piece in my opinion.


----------



## Meaghan

tdc said:


> I've never gone through a very big Beethoven symphony phase, though I do really admire certain moments from them, I have rarely sat through an entire Beethoven symphony. Its not that I don't like them though, and I may go through such a phase later. *His piano music so far is what really does it for me and that is the Beethoven I go for - mainly his sonatas and piano concertos.*


Me too! While I like his symphonies, he is not my favorite symphonist, but he is definitely my favorite piano composer. It's possible I would play nothing but his sonatas if I could get away with it.


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## tdc

Meaghan said:


> Me too! While I like his symphonies, he is not my favorite symphonist, but he is definitely my favorite piano composer. It's possible I would play nothing but his sonatas if I could get away with it.


Yes, Beethoven's piano pieces are still probably my favorite of his works, though I should point out that since I made that post I've had a couple revelations in his symphonies, and he's been raised in status in my books in this area hehe... 

I'm really not sure if he is my favorite symphonist, but I am starting to become more aware of the full extent of his greatness in this area.


----------



## violadude

tdc said:


> Yes, Beethoven's piano pieces are still probably my favorite of his works, though I should point out that since I made that post I've had a couple revelations in his symphonies, and he's been raised in status in my books in this area hehe...
> 
> I'm really not sure if he is my favorite symphonist, but I am starting to become more aware of the full extent of his greatness in this area.


I too, am not so fond of the symphonies. But my favorite pieces by him are his Piano Sonatas and his string quartets. I think that is where is most profound and innovative music comes from.


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## tahnak

Eroica said:


> Why doesnt anyone pay any attention the the wonderful 3rd? =(
> 
> I havent found a recording of the Eroica where all of my own tastes in the piece are fulfilled xD
> 
> Its so gorgeous.


There is no better recording than the superlative Leonard Bernstein with New York Philharmonic of the sixties with the repeat honoured in the first movement on CBS of Eroica. No other conductor has had any improvement to make on this reading since then.


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## tahnak

*Falstaffarel Canon*

Came across a beautiful canon by Beethoven called Falstaffarel . G Major.Brilliantly juxtaposed counterpoint.



Looks heavily inspired by the Papagena of Mozart in Die Zauberflote. Neverthesless, delightful!


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## Curiosity

Yagan Kiely said:


> *cough*Mozart's melody*cough*


*cough*Basic Eb major arpeggio*cough*


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## Curiosity

http://www.hberlioz.com/Predecessors/beethsym.htm#intro

Berlioz analyses all of Beethoven's symphonies. Some very interesting commentary. That Berlioz certainly sounded like a dramatic, colourful chap.


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## jalex

Yeah, I've read that before. I want to post this every time someone makes a derogatory comment about Beethoven's third:



> Where is the truth, and where is the error? Everywhere and nowhere. Everybody is right. What to someone seems beautiful is not so for someone else, simply because one person was moved and the other remained indifferent, and the former experienced profound delight while the latter acute boredom. What can be done about this?… nothing… but it is dreadful; I would rather be mad and believe in absolute beauty.


Like someone who asked why Beethoven three was better than Schubert eight in the other thread.


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## fartwriggler

Just got my hands on this puppy-the definitive account of his Kreutzer and Spring sonatas?


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## itywltmt

Today, *Beethoven *is _my number one obsession_:
http://itywltmt.blogspot.com/2011/10/montage-28-beethoven-number-one-montage.html
(Last post of the series)


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## mtmailey

i like his odd number symphonys, egmont overture,violin concerto, string trios,string quartets & duos.but he being the greatest composer is not a fact.Composers like DVORAK ,TCHAIKOVSKY and other romantic era composers sound better than him.


----------



## Guest

fartwriggler said:


> Just got my hands on this puppy-the definitive account of his Kreutzer and Spring sonatas?


That's a great one, but I think I prefer Menuhin/Kempff. I have a soft spot for Kempff when he plays Beethoven.


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## jalex

mtmailey said:


> i like his odd number symphonys, egmont overture,violin concerto, string trios,string quartets & duos.but he being the greatest composer is not a fact. *Composers like DVORAK ,TCHAIKOVSKY and other romantic era composers sound better than him*.


Is that a fact?


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## Sonata

I've been working through an album of his symphonies, and so far I've listened to all of them except the 9th. (just once though, so I'm not well versed in them.) I have to be in the right mood for a symphony, but definitely good stuff there. I actually like his fourth and sixth symphonies better than his third and fifth, so I'm unusual there. I've heard just a couple movements from some of his piano concertos, but I'm getting a compilation with some of his full concertos later this year. I've really enjoyed some of his flute chamber work, lesser known probably but still fun. I have yet to touch his piano sonatas, but I'll work my way there eventually, loving the piano as I do.


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## mtmailey

Sonata said:


> I've been working through an album of his symphonies, and so far I've listened to all of them except the 9th. (just once though, so I'm not well versed in them.) I have to be in the right mood for a symphony, but definitely good stuff there. I actually like his fourth and sixth symphonies better than his third and fifth, so I'm unusual there. I've heard just a couple movements from some of his piano concertos, but I'm getting a compilation with some of his full concertos later this year. I've really enjoyed some of his flute chamber work, lesser known probably but still fun. I have yet to touch his piano sonatas, but I'll work my way there eventually, loving the piano as I do.


 i am surprised that you did not like the symphony #7


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## Sonata

I do like symphony 7


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## lou

I'm sure everyone remembers this historic meeting of two powerful historical figures.


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## kv466

fartwriggler said:


> Just got my hands on this puppy-the definitive account of his Kreutzer and Spring sonatas?


Hmm, I've heard it and it is actually quite great...I still go back, in my mind, to the recording made for the Immortal Beloved soundtrack...not sure, but I think it was Kremer/Axe but what I do remember is that they captured that one movement pretty darned well. Gotta go back and hear this again as I've not in years at this point.


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## Oskaar

I post this in currently listening, but I thaught I could post it here also. Very glad for comments, on the version if you have heard it, on the works, or suggestions to other good recordings!

oskaar

Ludvig van Beethoven

Work
Beethoven: Beethoven: Symphony No.6 in F, Op.68 ('Pastoral')

Artists
Orchestre National Bordeaux Aquitaine, Alain Lombard




 http://www.amazon.com/Ludwig-van-Bee...7&sr=8-2-fkmr0

My first experience with this great symphony! Very good performance. The orchestra brings out very well the nuances in both the lyrical and dramatic.










*Ludvig van Beethoven*

Work 
*Beethoven: Opus 73: Piano Concerto No. 5 in E-flat major ("Emperor")*

Artists	
Joshua Pierce
Slovak State Philharmonic Orchestra, Bystrik Rezucha




http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000XUUYA8/ref=dm_sp_alb?ie=UTF8&qid=1316784404&sr=8-1

An absolutely amazing performance! It is wonderful to hear Pierce on piano, he plays so with such ease, yet sensitive, and with great personality. Very good orchestra, too. The sound is very good.










Work 
*Beethoven: Opus 58: Piano Concerto No.4 in G, Op.58*

Artists	
Performer: Mario Galeani
Conductor: Grzegorz Nowak
Orchestra/Ensemble: Royal Philharmonic Orchestra




http://www.amazon.com/Piano-Concertos-Nos-4-5/dp/B001HRPXEI/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1317049250&sr=8-1

I prefer this concert in front of "Emperor". It has a warmth that no 5 is missing. Both are naturally excellent in their own way.
Performances here are very good! The sound is not as good as the last, but certainly not bad. Galeanier brilliant on the piano! And there is a great nerve between piano and orchestra.


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## itywltmt

New instalment in my Beethoven Project - Beethoven's _Eighth _, _Triple _Concerto and Leonora _no. 2_ overture, from the Haitink/LSO cycle:
http://itywltmt.blogspot.com/2011/11/montage-32-haitinkbeethoven.html

Also, if you missed it, my _This Day in Music History_ post for November 14 1954:
http://www.talkclassical.com/blogs/itywltmt/428-day-music-history-november.html


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## itywltmt

Today, and this coming Thursday on ITYWLTMT, we will explore a seminal concert that took place in Vienna on December 22nd 1808. It is the infamous musical academy held by Beethoven where he premiered many works:

- The Sixth Symphony
- Aria: "Ah, perfido", Op. 65
- The Gloria movement of the Mass in C major
- The Fourth Piano Concerto (played by Beethoven himself)
(Intermission)
- The Fifth Symphony
- The Sanctus and Benedictus movements of the C major Mass
- A solo piano improvisation played by Beethoven
- The Choral Fantasy

_Pierre's Tuesday Blog_ explores the *first half *of the concert, and my Blogspot blog will explore the second half.

Read today's installment: http://www.talkclassical.com/blogs/itywltmt/438-musikakademie-konzert-der-22.html


----------



## moody

mtmailey said:


> i like his odd number symphonys, egmont overture,violin concerto, string trios,string quartets & duos.but he being the greatest composer is not a fact.Composers like DVORAK ,TCHAIKOVSKY and other romantic era composers sound better than him.


Sound better than him what ? How weird--is this official music speak ?


----------



## itywltmt

itywltmt said:


> Today, and this coming Thursday on ITYWLTMT, we will explore a seminal concert that took place in Vienna on December 22nd 1808. It is the infamous musical academy held by Beethoven where he premiered many works:
> 
> - The Sixth Symphony
> - Aria: "Ah, perfido", Op. 65
> - The Gloria movement of the Mass in C major
> - The Fourth Piano Concerto (played by Beethoven himself)
> (Intermission)
> - The Fifth Symphony
> - The Sanctus and Benedictus movements of the C major Mass
> - A solo piano improvisation played by Beethoven
> - The Choral Fantasy
> 
> _Pierre's Tuesday Blog_ explores the *first half *of the concert, and my Blogspot blog will explore the second half.
> 
> Read today's installment: http://www.talkclassical.com/blogs/itywltmt/438-musikakademie-konzert-der-22.html


The second half of the concert:
http://itywltmt.blogspot.com/2011/12/montage-36-this-day-in-music-history.html


----------



## moody

Potiphera said:


> I'm afraid I have gone off Beethoven's symphonies, especially the 7th, which I can no longer listen to, if I hear it on the radio, I switch it off. Has anyone else tired of B's symphonies?


Anybody who is tired of Beethoven must be tired of life. To paraphrase.


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## moody

fartwriggler said:


> Just got my hands on this puppy-the definitive account of his Kreutzer and Spring sonatas?


How many have you heard to come out with such a sweeping statement. Or do you just mean " I think this is jolly good.?"


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## kv466

^ 

I'm curious now, too, as I would only give a 'definitive' description to something I have heard at least a couple of dozen of the so-called best performing the same piece. I like the way Frank plays the violin for this...think she did it with Axe...not to mention, not a big fan of any Vladi, especially this one.


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## moody

I find that Fritz Kreisler and Franz Rupp make quite a good job of it .I was looking at the sleeve note for rec. dates and there are none, what do you ecpect when the sleeve note is written by Leonard Duck---distant cousin of Donald you know. But the recording is old which spoils things for a lot of members.


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## starthrower

I've had the urge to go back and listen to more Beethoven for the first time in 25 years. My library has the Hogwood/Lubin set of piano concertos/sonatas, so I'm going to give them a listen.

I'm also listening to the late quartets on a Vanguard set by the Yale Quartet.


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## jani

Beethoven is one of the greatest composers ever ( The greatest in my opinion) .
I think that Symphonies,Piano sonatas/Concertos and String quartets were his strongest area.( Well yeah Missa solemnis is one of the best masses ever composed)
I love it how his music never compromises the expressive side of music .
Beethoven never wrote " Virtuosity for virtuosity's sake" .
I think that his 9th symphony, the appasionata piano sonata, Missa solemnis and his late string quartets are his greatest artistic achievements.


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## mtmailey

MY FAVORITE IS THE SYMPHONY 7 but certain cds of it did not sound good i had to get a old tape to transfer to CD.


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## Carpenoctem

jani said:


> I think that his 9th symphony, the appasionata piano sonata, Missa solemnis and his late string quartets are his greatest artistic achievements.


I would also add The Piano Concerto No.5 in this list, it's such a magnificent concerto.


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## Ramako

I always felt the Missa Solemnis sounded very artificial, certainly as a Mass. Perhaps I should give it (yet) another chance...

Anyway, that still doesn't mean Beethoven isn't one of my very favourite composers. I love symphonies 3,5,9 the late quartets, Coriolan etc. I've also recently become fond of The Consecration of the House overture.


----------



## tahnak

mtmailey said:


> MY FAVORITE IS THE SYMPHONY 7 but certain cds of it did not sound good i had to get a old tape to transfer to CD.


I agree that certain performances of the seventh are below par and have not found all of them to my liking. 
My favourite is Herbert Von Karajan with the Berliner Philharmoniker.


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## Bas

I love the violin sonata's, I think number #4 in A, op. 23 is my very favourite Beethoven Composition. 
A piece me dearer then his symphonies* for it's great rest, calm and yet very ingenious, sometimes even wild developments. A real masterpiece from the Great King of Harmony.

I have a performance by Isabelle Faust (violin) and Alexander Melnikov (piano) as a cd on the Harmonia Mundi label (a full set of all the violin sonatas). In the video you can see the 2nd movement, my favourite.

* Is that correct English?


----------



## Vaneyes

Bas said:


> I love the violin sonata's, I think number #4 in A, op. 23 is my very favourite Beethoven Composition.
> A piece me dearer then his symphonies* for it's great rest, calm and yet very ingenious, sometimes even wild developments. A real masterpiece from the Great King of Harmony. I have a performance by Isabelle Faust (violin) and Alexander Melnikov (piano) as a cd on the Harmonia Mundi label (a full set of all the violin sonatas)....


I share your enthusiasm for #4. #5 is also a favorite from those sonatas. Kremer & Argerich (DG, 1987) being my preferred recording. Salut!


----------



## Bas

Vaneyes said:


> I share your enthusiasm for #4. #5 is also a favorite from those sonatas. Kremer & Argerich (DG, 1987) being my preferred recording. Salut!


I agree, sir! The 5th is indeed a brilliant piece, too. Will check out the recording you mentioned one day.


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## Ladybird

Previously the recording you're talking about, Kremer & Argerich (DG, 1987), was my favorite, but recently I heard some new arrangements of Beethoven's works and they were amazing! I'm talking about the disk that was recently issued and was performed by Maxim Rysanov, Kristina Blaumane and Jacob Katsnelson. If you still haven't heard it, you can do it here.


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## Crudblud

Just borrowed Gardiner's Beethoven symphony cycle with the Orchestre Révolutionnaire et Romantique from a friend. Hopefully this will change my mind about his orchestral work.


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## jani

Crudblud said:


> Just borrowed Gardiner's Beethoven symphony cycle with the Orchestre Révolutionnaire et Romantique from a friend. Hopefully this will change my mind about his orchestral work.


From god like to even more god like?


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## Crudblud

Sadly, no. As much as I like his chamber works, I find his orchestral music to be often quite dull. I'm hoping a seasoned expert performing them on supposedly period appropriate instruments will give me a different insight in to the symphonies.


----------



## jani

crudblud said:


> sadly, no. As much as i like his chamber works, i find his orchestral music to be often quite dull. I'm hoping a seasoned expert performing them on supposedly period appropriate instruments will give me a different insight in to the symphonies.


Blasphemy!!!


----------



## Crudblud

Well, I'm certainly no stranger to that.


----------



## BurningDesire

One of the piano students at my school performed one of Beethoven's late sonatas (I forget which). I commented to my composition teacher after the concert that Beethoven reminded me alot of Goya, because they were contemporaries, and Goya's work progressed to things reminiscent of expressionistic art, with very violent and emotional paintings, with very dark imagery. Beethoven's late music reminds me alot of Schoenberg and Debussy (the late quartets and piano sonatas, respectively). Amazing composer.


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## moody

jani said:


> From god like to even more god like?


I would doubt it very much under Gardiner.


----------



## Hausmusik

moody said:


> I would doubt it very much under Gardiner.


You're wrong.


----------



## moody

Hausmusik said:


> You're wrong.


That's a very well thought out comment--thanks!


----------



## Very Senior Member

Hausmusik said:


> You're wrong.


Charming.

Care to elaborate?


----------



## moody

Very Senior Member said:


> Charming.
> 
> Care to elaborate?


He might possibly not know how.


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## Crudblud

moody said:


> He might possibly not know how.


Don't sneer at people for things you yourself are guilty of. Elaborate on how Gardiner is not a good interpreter of Beethoven, as you seem to be suggesting, before getting on someone else's back for not elaborating on their own statement.


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## moody

The original post was "From God To Even More Godlike"---that doesn't seem to warrant much of a riposte. But, I think Gardiner to be just alright and that's all,so I answered "not under Gardiner"
The next comment was from Hausmusik saying "You're wrong." Quite terse!!
Then VSM asked him to elaborate.
At this point perhaps you would explain how you come into the matter??


----------



## Crudblud

Can you not read more than two posts up or something? I was the one who mentioned Gardiner in the first place.


----------



## moody

Crudblud said:


> Can you not read more than two posts up or something? I was the one who mentioned Gardiner in the first place.


Do try to control your manners.I noticed what you said along with the fact that you find Beethoven's orchestral music dull!!! Perhaps ypu would like to enlarge on that ?
But what has that got to do with anything, I was commenting on the strange reference to "godlike", do you think the member could answer for himself ?
Or do you suppose that he thinks, as I do ,that it's not of much importance ?
Obviously you should make no comment until you have listened to the Gardiner set yourself, then you might have some authority.


----------



## Crudblud

1. Yes, I need to control my manners. Need I remind you that you have a penchant for talking rather condescendingly for no apparent reason?

2. What exactly am I supposed to enlarge [sic]?

3. "Godlike" is a fairly common term on the internet, much like "epic", re-purposed from its original usage to mean "really good" or "great".

4. I haven't commented on Gardiner's set nor do I claim to have any authority, all I have said is that it might change my opinion about Beethoven's symphonies. I hope it does, it's not like I go around looking for music to dislike, in fact I quite enjoy liking music.


----------



## moody

Crudblud said:


> 1. Yes, I need to control my manners. Need I remind you that you have a penchant for talking rather condescendingly for no apparent reason?
> 
> 2. What exactly am I supposed to enlarge [sic]?
> 
> 3. "Godlike" is a fairly common term on the internet, much like "epic", re-purposed from its original usage to mean "really good" or "great".
> 
> 4. I haven't commented on Gardiner's set nor do I claim to have any authority, all I have said is that it might change my opinion about Beethoven's symphonies. I hope it does, it's not like I go around looking for music to dislike, in fact I quite enjoy liking music.


Why "enlarge (sic) ? Enlarge on your comment re Beethoven's dullness.
I have never seen "Godlike" before,but I have seen "epic" along with "wow" and "awesome" and many other juvenile ways of describing things in general.
As for being condescending ,I don't accept that and I can think of certain members where condescending is a way of life.
If I am offhand sometimes it is only when I read some of the nonsense being put forward.
Can we leave this as I can only think that you were in a bad mood yesterday. I have never considered you to be a nonsense -talker by the way.


----------



## Crudblud

I'm sorry, all this bickering lately has got my back up. Yes, I think we should leave this be.


----------



## moody

Crudblud said:


> I'm sorry, all this bickering lately has got my back up. Yes, I think we should leave this be.


The plus side is that maybe Mr.Gardiner will persuade you to change your mind ,but in any case these works with period instruments ought to be fairly interesting.


----------



## Sonata

The fourth piano concerto is just brilliant! I've listened to it for five days in a row


----------



## Carpenoctem

Sonata said:


> The fourth piano concerto is just brilliant! I've listened to it for five days in a row


Yeah, it's great!

I like the 5th a bit more though, the 1th movement is so damn powerful.


----------



## Sonata

I haven't listened to the fifth yet, but it's on the same set as my 4th with Rubenstein. I look forward to listening to it probably next month...or maybe sooner.


----------



## Very Senior Member

To be realistic, I rather doubt that anyone who finds Beethoven's orchestral music to be dull based on a traditional approach is going to experience a complete reversal of opinion after having heard a period instrument approach. 

People are either attracted to Beethoven's orchestral music or not, and assuming they are interested the question of traditional versus HIP/period instrument approaches is more a matter of seeing whether or not their appreciation can be taken a stage further. For some it can, for others they may prefer the more traditional approach.

If they are not interested in Beethoven's orchestral music, but suddenly change their mind haviig heard period instruments, I would be inclined to question whether this might be more a placebo effect than any genuine transformation in tastes having taking place.


----------



## oogabooha

I was wondering what everyone's opinion was on the 1895 Mahler Orchestration version of Beethoven 9? It's certainly interesting, but I don't think it's a valid substitute for the original.


----------



## BurningDesire

Very Senior Member said:


> To be realistic, I rather doubt that anyone who finds Beethoven's orchestral music to be dull based on a traditional approach is going to experience a complete reversal of opinion after having heard a period instrument approach.
> 
> People are either attracted to Beethoven's orchestral music or not, and assuming they are interested the question of traditional versus HIP/period instrument approaches is more a matter of seeing whether or not their appreciation can be taken a stage further. For some it can, for others they may prefer the more traditional approach.
> 
> If they are not interested in Beethoven's orchestral music, but suddenly change their mind haviig heard period instruments, I would be inclined to question whether this might be more a placebo effect than any genuine transformation in tastes having taking place.


a change of instrumentation can make a universe of difference. To me, Couperin's music sounds cluttered and messy on a harpsichord, but played on a piano it sounds deep and intricate, beautiful.


----------



## Crudblud

BurningDesire said:


> a change of instrumentation can make a universe of difference. To me, Couperin's music sounds cluttered and messy on a harpsichord, but played on a piano it sounds deep and intricate, beautiful.


We may have to have words...


----------



## Very Senior Member

BurningDesire said:


> a change of instrumentation can make a universe of difference. To me, Couperin's music sounds cluttered and messy on a harpsichord, but played on a piano it sounds deep and intricate, beautiful.


Fair comment. I wouldn't argue with what you say because the music does sound very different on piano rather than harpsichord. The same applies to J S Bach whose keyboard pieces I generally prefer on piano. But I would still be surprised if someone who finds Beethoven's orchestral works on modern instruments "dull", and yet dramatically different when played on period instruments, where the differences are much less obvious than piano versus harpsichord alone.


----------



## BurningDesire

Crudblud said:


> We may have to have words...


 You like his stuff better on the original harpsichord? I'm that way with Bach. Maybe I've just heard lousy performances, but honestly there's so many damned trills, it just sounds better realized on an instrument that can produce notes at different dynamics


----------



## Crudblud

BurningDesire said:


> You like his stuff better on the original harpsichord? I'm that way with Bach. Maybe I've just heard lousy performances, but honestly there's so many damned trills, it just sounds better realized on an instrument that can produce notes at different dynamics


I can't really stand baroque keyboard music on piano and much prefer the harpsichord, yet my favourite recording of the Goldbergs is actually on accordion, so work that one out. Personally, I favour Scott Ross in these matters, his recordings of Bach, Couperin, Scarlatti and Rameau are outstanding.


----------



## Vaneyes

Most, if not all of the great composers, were forward thinkers for instrumentation and sound. They had to be. It was an integral part of the creative and communicative process. 

Unfortunately and ironically, backward/period thinking can often be perceived as a modernistic tool to sell records in the name of scholarship. 

I think there's room for both, but we must not kid ourselves when truth in the matter is warranted.


----------



## Crudblud

^Okay, so who is kidding themselves? Or am I reading too much in to what you're saying?


----------



## Very Senior Member

Vaneyes said:


> Most, if not all of the great composers, were forward thinkers for instrumentation and sound. They had to be. It was an integral part of the creative and communicative process.
> 
> Unfortunately and ironically, backward/period thinking can often be perceived as a modernistic tool to sell records in the name of scholarship.
> 
> I think there's room for both, but we must not kid ourselves when truth in the matter is warranted.


I am very much a HIP enthusiast when it comes to Baroque or Renaissance music. Most of the latest recordings are by period instrument ensembles, so many audiences are used to it. If it is compared with older style presentations of the 60s and 70s the differences are very noticeable. Each one to his tastes, but I much prefer the newer recordings.

I used to be indifferent to HIP for classical period music, including Beethoven, but gradually I've moved more in favour of HIP. I can't help but feel that iit's more likely that the music of any especially good composer, like Mozart and Beethoven, should sound best performed on the instruments it was written for, using the techniques commonly adopted at the time isofar that research can discover them.

The main caveat to this is that I'm not all that keen on the use of forte pianos in the case of Beethoven's solo/chamber works, or Mozart's for that matter. I'm pretty sure that if a modern Steinway (or similar) was somehow available to any of these classical/early romantic composers they would bite your hand off to acquire one.


----------



## Vaneyes

Very Senior Member said:


> I am very much a HIP enthusiast when it comes to Baroque or Renaissance music. Most of the latest recordings are by period instrument ensembles, so many audiences are used to it. If it is compared with older style presentations of the 60s and 70s the differences are very noticeable. Each one to his tastes, but I much prefer the newer recordings.
> 
> I used to be indifferent to HIP for classical period music, including Beethoven, but gradually I've moved more in favour of HIP. I can't help but feel that iit's more likely that the music of any especially good composer, like Mozart and Beethoven, should sound best performed on the instruments it was written for, using the techniques commonly adopted at the time isofar that research can discover them.
> 
> The main caveat to this is that I'm not all that keen on the use of forte pianos in the case of Beethoven's solo/chamber works, or Mozart's for that matter. I'm pretty sure that if a modern Steinway (or similar) was somehow available to any of these classical/early romantic composers they would bite your hand off to acquire one.


First and foremost, it's what you/I/we enjoy. IOW, what fits our ears.

I obviously take issue with, "...it's more likely that the music of any especially good composer, like Mozart and Beethoven, should sound best performed on the instruments it was written for, using the techniques commonly adopted at the time insofar that research can discover them." And of course with those who want to blanket most of the 19th century with period play.

Convincing period application gets less and less as we progress through Haydn, Mozart, and LvB. Apart from some early LvB, there's almost nothing left for the periodists.


----------



## Vaneyes

Crudblud said:


> ^Okay, so who is kidding themselves? Or am I reading too much in to what you're saying?


From the brief paraphrase, you're probably not reading enough.


----------



## Very Senior Member

Vaneyes said:


> Convincing period application gets less and less as we progress through Haydn, Mozart, and LvB. Apart from some early LvB, there's almost nothing left for the periodists.


What about mid and late Beethoven? I would of thought that there has been quite a lot of interest in HIP, or periodic instrument, approaches here.

I'm no expert of the amount of interest there may be in HIP/period instruments later in the 19th C, but I would have thought that your bold assertion that "there's almost nothing left" after early Beethoven is too strong.

For example, I would have thought that some of Schumann's orchestral works (mainly his symphonies) have received reconsideration on HIP principles in terms of size of orchestra, choice and balancing of instruments. That alone, I would have thought, makes your assertion look questionable, and there could be other examples.


----------



## Vaneyes

Very Senior Member said:


> What about mid and late Beethoven? I would of thought that there has been quite a lot of interest in HIP, or periodic instrument, approaches here.
> 
> I'm no expert of the amount of interest there may be in HIP/period instruments later in the 19th C, but I would have thought that your bold assertion that "there's almost nothing left" after early Beethoven is too strong.
> 
> For example, I would have thought that some of Schumann's orchestral works (mainly his symphonies) have received reconsideration on HIP principles in terms of size of orchestra, choice and balancing of instruments. That alone, I would have thought, makes your assertion look questionable, and there could be other examples.


Have my assertions denied interest or actual recordings? Hardly. Quite the opposite. Otherwise, I wouldn't be having this discussion with you.

Keep clam. I/we are not as fanatical as some on both sides of the issue. I consider myself more of a centrist.

"Asinine stuff...a complete and absolute farce...Awful. Nobody wants to hear that stuff. I don't." -- Pinchas Zukerman


----------



## Very Senior Member

Vaneyes said:


> Have my assertions denied interest or actual recordings? Hardly. Quite the opposite. Otherwise, I wouldn't be having this discussion with you.
> 
> Keep clam. I/we are not as fanatical as some on both sides of the issue. I consider myself more of a centrist.


I was merely asking why your cut-off was "early" Beethoven", as opposed to late Beethoven. And to point out that some of Schumman's ochestral works benefit from a period approach in terms of a smaller size of orchestra and a careful balancing of instruments to avoid muddy textures.


----------



## Vaneyes

Very Senior Member said:


> I was merely asking why your cut-off was "early" Beethoven", as opposed to late Beethoven. And to point out that some of Schumman's ochestral works benefit from a period approach in terms of a smaller size of orchestra and a careful balancing of instruments to avoid muddy textures.


Eroica in period, no thanks. Re Schumann's "muddy textures", I detect JEG theory. And on that, I bid adieu.


----------



## jani

So i noticed that TV didn't have a Beethoven fan club so i took the liberty to make one.
Everyone who enjoys his music are allowed to join./ Warmly welcomed!
http://www.talkclassical.com/groups/ludwig-van-beethoven-fan-shrine.html


----------



## Chrythes

To be honest, one of the main reason why I think of Beethoven so highly is because of his string quartets. I just can't find anything else resembling them. For some reason I think he wrote in the voice of a human, rather than in the voice of an epoch or a certain style.


----------



## Renaissance

Chrythes said:


> To be honest, one of the main reason why I think of Beethoven so highly is because of his string quartets. I just can't find anything else resembling them. For some reason I think he wrote in the voice of a human, rather than in the voice of an epoch or a certain style.


Exactly, you can spend much time trying to put him into a specific category/style, but his music is none of these. He may be a classic in form, but a truly romantic in expression. I "hear" emotions in Beethoven's music that I have never heard anywhere else. It is like I can live in his music, be it popular (like symphonies, concertos) or not. A "normal" human being could have never succeeded in doing something like this.


----------



## LordBlackudder




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## neoshredder

So much to like about Beethoven's music. The complexity keeps it interesting and you can always learn more with multiple listenings. The main thing though is how emotional it is. Just a joy to listen to.


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## jani

I think that Beethovens 6th specially the 1st movement has more "grace" than any Mozart work.
I just love the opening theme!


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## kungfuthug

What turned me on to Beethoven was his Piano Sonatas. I instantly started to learn the piano after hearing some of them on a BBC special the Genius of Beethoven.

I never liked the Symphonies. Then I listened again. Then again. Now I'm hooked. Beethoven is my favourite by far. I love his Symphonies. Especially Number 2 and 9. I have just started to get into some other classical composers and have just started to build a collection.


----------



## Guest

I've not read back through all 12 pages of this thread (I will do later) so I don't know if this has been covered here (or in another thread) but I thought I'd carry across my thoughts about LvB from the decaying M v B discussion, and offer a specific to my two generalisations that no-one has really attempted to challenge.

I suggested that the weight and power of B's orchestra drives my adrenalin levels up. Here's a link to Bernstein talking about the 8th Symphony.






And I's assuming that the section he is talking about is the one I post next, which begins around 4mins 50 with a slow build-up to key change (to minor?) around 5m 31. What started as an agreeable and courtly movement slowly takes on a monstrous anxiety, better, in my opinion, that the storm from the 6th symphony. What I find exhilarating is not just the volume, but the insistence, the driving passion, the sustained 'crisis' (is that a technical musical word?) and the very satisfying relief around 6m 34s (though not quite a resolution, since the closing phrase ends on an 'up-note', inviting you on to a more extended recapitulation.)

I hope I'm making musical sense.

Thanks.


----------



## SiegendesLicht

I am listening to the complete *fifth symphony *now for the first time in my life (of course, I've heard that famous tune before, but never paid close attention until now). It is freakin' awesome!


----------



## jani

SiegendesLicht said:


> I am listening to the complete *fifth symphony *now for the first time in my life (of course, I've heard that famous tune before, but never paid close attention until now). It is freakin' awesome!


Yes, Beethovens genius is proven by how he was able to build that Symphony from that very simple 4 note motif, but wait until you listen to this 9th symphony!Its the best piece of music written ( In my opinion).


----------



## SiegendesLicht

I've listened to the ninth yesterday and it is even more freakin' awesome! (I know nothing about music theory, so I can only express my admiration in such quite barbaric terms).

Sometimes it does feel good to be a newbie who can still discover all of those master works for the _very first time. _


----------



## jani

SiegendesLicht said:


> I've listened to the ninth yesterday and it is even more freakin' awesome! (I know nothing about music theory, so I can only express my admiration in such quite barbaric terms).
> 
> Sometimes it does feel good to be a newbie who can still discover all of those master works for the _very first time. _


Wait I create a Beethoven playlist for you about his most awesome pieces.


----------



## jani

Ok this is a VERY SHORT best of list, Ofc he has lots of awesome music but i didn't want to spend lot of time to do the play list.
But all that music (7h48mins) should keep you busy for a while.

http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLlqAua4LizbBo5S5bYTe_CTohyx7kOl_2


----------



## jani

I bet that Beethoven would have loved this performance!
The last movement of his 9th is about unity, brotherhood and peace.
10,000 musicians performing his 9th!


----------



## nikitema

My favorite symphony is also the ninth. I like to play this music for 4 hands with my friends.
But it's bad because this music is played rarely in the music halls. (I live in St.Petersburg).


----------



## RJay

LvB needs to be bumped up to the front page. Beethoven was so great that it's become fashionable for some to ignore him at the expense of those far lesser to him.


----------



## KenOC

Beethoven ought to be "sticky" and permanently at the top of whatever is being viewed. And not just on this forum!


----------



## Guest

neoshredder said:


> So much to like about Beethoven's music. The complexity keeps it interesting and you can always learn more with multiple listenings. The main thing though is how emotional it is. Just a joy to listen to.


I just don't agree that it's "emotional". Listen to any of the first 23 piano sonatas and please explain how they're temperamentally different from Haydn or Mozart. Beethoven was a Classical composer.


----------



## Guest

jani said:


> I bet that Beethoven would have loved this performance!
> The last movement of his 9th is about unity, brotherhood and peace.
> 10,000 musicians performing his 9th!


Well I just can't stand those 'bigger-than-Ben-Hur' performances. LESS IS MORE.


----------



## RJay

Maybe "passionate" is the word. Certainly he expanded the boundaries of classical form, never to return to what it was.


----------



## DavidA

CountenanceAnglaise said:


> I just don't agree that it's "emotional". Listen to any of the first 23 piano sonatas and please explain how they're temperamentally different from Haydn or Mozart. Beethoven was a Classical composer.


In general Mozart and Haydn tended to contain their emotions where Beethoven expressed his inner turmoil through the music. Now note: this is a generalisation to their approach. You find plenty of exceptions.


----------



## jani

RJay said:


> LvB needs to be bumped up to the front page. Beethoven was so great that it's become fashionable for some to ignore him at the expense of those far lesser to him.


Lenny said it perfeclty.


----------



## TwoFourPianist

I am currently score-reading his 9th symphony. What a wonderful dimension to find yourself lost within


----------



## GodNickSatan

Just heard this for the first time. Had no idea Beethoven wrote anything for the mandolin! What a wonderful little piece though


----------



## maestro57

This needs to be bumped back to the top.


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## Vaneyes

Tom Service discusses the 5th, and suggests recs.

http://www.theguardian.com/music/to...16/symphony-guide-beethoven-fifth-tom-service


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## HaydnBearstheClock

I can't really understand why Beethoven is 'greater' than Haydn though - personally I enjoy Haydn's music much more. He wrote over 100 symphonies and I haven't heard one which I didn't like. I'm yet to hear a Haydn quartet that I didn't like. His late masses are awesome and and so are The Creation and The Seasons. I really enjoy his sonatas. I could probably listen to Haydn my whole life, there's so much quality music he wrote. Sure, Beethoven was very skilled and a master of composition, I'm not going to debate it. But calling it 'universal' and claiming that everyone likes it is a bit of an exaggeration in my opinion.


----------



## maestro57

HaydnBearstheClock said:


> I can't really understand why Beethoven is 'greater' than Haydn though - personally I enjoy Haydn's music much more. He wrote over 100 symphonies and I haven't heard one which I didn't like. I'm yet to hear a Haydn quartet that I didn't like. His late masses are awesome and and so are The Creation and The Seasons. I really enjoy his sonatas. I could probably listen to Haydn my whole life, there's so much quality music he wrote. Sure, Beethoven was very skilled and a master of composition, I'm not going to debate it. But calling it 'universal' and claiming that everyone likes it is a bit of an exaggeration in my opinion.


It's a faux pas to talk down on a composer when you're writing in their guest book!


----------



## HaydnBearstheClock

Well, you have a point, sorry. But still, I'm somewhat bothered by the 'pedestal' status Beethoven seems to have - there is always the implication that he's somehow 'greater' than Haydn and Mozart, which takes the subjective criteria out of the question. Maybe he wrote music that was of larger scope - but does that automatically mean that it's more enjoyable? To some, sure; but not to everyone, right?


----------



## AClockworkOrange

I think the "pedestal" comes from the fact that we have greater exposure to Beethoven than many other composers. The fact that he was losing his hearing and that he composed one of the most powerful symphonies ever written whilst being deaf also contributes to his image.

Whether you like the Ninth or loathe it for example, one cannot deny it's influence or importance on/to the following generations of composer. 

He has a powerful image, reputation and a body of powerful and influential works. His music is also tied into numerous historical events and contexts for good or ill (WW2 propaganda similarly to Wagner or at the fall of the Berlin Wall).

Ultimately people saying he is the greatest is still a subjective statement. It is a personal value judgement and not everyone will agree and might I say thank heavens for the diversity. Beethoven may be one of the most influential but that is measurable to a degree. "Greatest" is a terrible term in my opinion, hence I always use favourite to indicate the personal bias.

Does the irritation perhaps stem from the fact that Haydn is somewhat overshadowed by his pupils?

We all have favourite composers whom we prefer and should perhaps gain more recognition but ultimately some composers will be more widely acknowledged than others, rightly or wrongly (which again is arguably subjective to a degree). I'm no expert though, I'm going with my gut so take a complimentary grain of salt 

Also, you are in Beethoven's guest book thread - of course he is going to be praised highly here.


----------



## HaydnBearstheClock

I liked your post, AClockWorkOrange. I'll leave the 'non-Beethoven' related discussions to other topics - since we're going off on a bit of a tangent towards the 'objective' vs. 'subjective' musical quality territory .


----------



## Guest

HaydnBearstheClock said:


> But still, I'm somewhat bothered by the 'pedestal' status Beethoven seems to have - there is always the implication that he's somehow 'greater' than Haydn and Mozart, which takes the subjective criteria out of the question.


Why does it bother you? You and I like Haydn's music and may gain an added, but not essential good feeling out of knowing that a large number of discerning others also enjoy the music, and that he is generally recognised as a 'great' composer. Is it really necessary to your well-being that Haydn is recognised by all as the _greatest _- and that he is put on his own pedestal?

I like the music of Stina Nordenstam, but she does not enjoy the same status in her field that Haydn does in his: am I bothered? Do I still listen to and enjoy her music?


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## HaydnBearstheClock

MacLeod said:


> Why does it bother you? You and I like Haydn's music and may gain an added, but not essential good feeling out of knowing that a large number of discerning others also enjoy the music, and that he is generally recognised as a 'great' composer. Is it really necessary to your well-being that Haydn is recognised by all as the _greatest _- and that he is put on his own pedestal?
> 
> I like the music of Stina Nordenstam, but she does not enjoy the same status in her field that Haydn does in his: am I bothered? Do I still listen to and enjoy her music?


Well, you have a point. Nevermind, let's just listen and enjoy, perhaps the composers are best seen globally.


----------



## andantefavori

To me Beethoven is a dear friend, who is always there to console me when I need it and rejoicing with me when I'm jumping through the roof. Why put any human being on a pedestal if you can just party with them?


----------



## Couac Addict

yo yo yo vanilla b. sup playa? u aint bin returnin my calz 4 d past 186 years. y u gota h8 on me? 2nit. my crib. i got d herb. u brng d phat beats. don't punk out on me agen. txt me dog


----------



## mstar

Couac Addict said:


> yo yo yo vanilla b. sup playa? u aint bin returnin my calz 4 d past 186 years. y u gota h8 on me? 2nit. my crib. i got d herb. u brng d phat beats. don't punk out on me agen. txt me dog


Oh, Beethoven....


----------



## Blake

jani said:


> Lenny said it perfeclty.


Wow. Thanks for this, Jani. Bernstein really took it home with his explanation.


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## Vaneyes

Look, I love Lenny, but he was on a first-name basis with far too many composers.


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## Blake

Sweet deal for him. Not everyone can muster such immensities.


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## scratchgolf

As my tastes in classical music evolve, my favorite composers tend to shift around. The one constant has, and always will be Beethoven. Not a day goes by that I don't listen to something of his. His 6th, 7th, and 9th symphonies are timeless. What I find to be the most impressive aspect to his music is that I can listen to all his formats without tiring. Sonatas, quartets, symphonies, from start to finish. I love Bach's Cello Suites but I could never listen to them all without break. It's too much for one sitting. Not so with Beethoven's works. The day I finally see his 9th performed in person will be one of the best days of my life.


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## mstar

After running out of money, I am sitting in my lunch period with my headphones in, listening to *Beethoven's Violin Concerto No. 1*. If reincarnation was real, I would come back as a major in music. :lol:

The temptation of majoring in it is... overwhelming. Especially when I'm listening to something like the concerto.


----------



## hreichgott

Why not? are you already majoring in something you like more than Beethoven?


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## mstar

hreichgott said:


> Why not? are you already majoring in something you like more than Beethoven?


Of course not!! I'm planning to major in biochemistry and biotechnology.

...Actually, whenever I think of this, it makes me want to cry, honestly: I think I'll be dropping a minor in music for an epigenetics minor.... My throat is tight from thinking about this while listening to Tchaikovsky's Serenade for Strings, second movement. I can't really help it, I'll never use music for my career! But I couldn't dare to replace it before I play Liszt! Ever single Liszt there is! Ohhhhh.... :lol: If only I could triple major!


----------



## TxllxT

*Ludwig van Beethoven in Teplice, Spa Resort in Bohemia I*

In Teplice Beethoven finished the 7th & 8th symphony and he made drafts for the 9th symphony.


----------



## TxllxT

*Ludwig van Beethoven in Teplice, Spa Resort in Bohemia II*


----------



## TxllxT

*Ludwig van Beethoven in Teplice, Spa Resort in Bohemia III*


----------



## Katie

Hop the DeLorean
Let's take a ride, 
To one-eight-oh-four
Vienna's south side

Chillin' 'round H-stadt
On Lichnowsky's dime
slow sippin' 40s
while Schindler beats time

Van caught a ditty
Asked, "Where's that from?
I heard a core beat,
It goes dah-dah-dah, dum"

That 4 note motif
Grew to full score
Though it took time to weather
Deafness and war

In the end Van said,
"What could be finer?,
I'll scale my opus
To the tone of C minor"

From modest reception
At der Wein in oh-eight
Beethoven's 5th 
emerged eternally great.

(With my deepest apologies to your refined poetic sensibilities./Katie)


----------



## samurai

Well, since I have none anyway, no apology required!


----------



## Blake

Thou hast gilded my lilies.


----------



## hreichgott

I've been obsessing over the late quartets lately. Such pure, expressive music.


----------



## hpowders

Hey Louis. Everyone else is busy taking potshots at Lang Lang.
How can somebody divorce his personality from his music? obviously, you were a real piece of work. So how can you write such heroic, noble music, being such an ****?


----------



## shangoyal

Great Hero of Music, period.


----------



## SixFootScowl

I am currently exploring the Eroica symphony and the Appassionata piano sonata, two of Beethoven's greatest works. Also love Fidelio, the Ninth, Choral Fantasy, Christ on the Mount of Olives, Missa Solemnis, and the Mass in C.


----------



## Lt.Belle

Christ on the Mount of Olives is the only piece i actually know of Beethoven. But i know every second of it i love it soooo much. Pure perfection!


----------



## Itullian

OperaJelle said:


> Christ on the Mount of Olives is the only piece i actually know of Beethoven. But i know every second of it i love it soooo much. Pure perfection!


This is a great recording of it too.


----------



## SixFootScowl

OperaJelle said:


> Christ on the Mount of Olives is the only piece i actually know of Beethoven. But i know every second of it i love it soooo much. Pure perfection!


You have to explore Fidelio. I have found that parts of Christ on the Mount of Olives remind me of Fidelio.
.


----------



## hpowders

You haven't lived until you hear Fidelio lead by Arturo Toscanini.


----------



## clara s

hpowders said:


> Hey Louis. Everyone else is busy taking potshots at Lang Lang.
> How can somebody divorce his personality from his music? obviously, you were a real piece of work. So how can you write such heroic, noble music, being such an ****?


I am not sure if he can still hear you,

but he can definitely feel your dedication to his superbness


----------



## hpowders

clara s said:


> I am not sure if he can still hear you,
> 
> but he can definitely feel your dedication to his superbness


Thank you, but this is supposed to be a composer guestbook. I assume the message will be delivered and received.


----------



## SergeOfArniVillage

I can play Beethoven's Moonlight Sonata in my sleep. It is one of my favorite pieces of music ever written -- so simple at its core, but with so much meaning. I even had an interpretation-essay all written out at one point 

The Appassionata gets a lot of acclaim as his greatest sonata, and rightfully so... But for me, the Hammerklavier is the single greatest piece of music ever conceived by man, and maybe ever will be.


----------



## hpowders

Rightfully so? What about the Hammerklavier?; the Waldstein?; the sonata #32?


----------



## shangoyal

hpowders said:


> Rightfully so? What about the Hammerklavier?; the Waldstein?; the sonata #32?


I think the Appassionata is the angry and mad Beethoven at his best - the one who wanted to twist destiny's arm and get his heart's will realised.


----------



## hpowders

shangoyal said:


> I think the Appassionata is the angry and mad Beethoven at his best - the one who wanted to twist destiny's arm and get his heart's will realised.


The Appassionata could barely be performed on those Broadwood pianos of Beethoven's time. It really exceeded the capacity of those pianofortes. I wonder how many strings were broken trying to play it back then?


----------



## shangoyal

Beethoven's 9 symphonies are my favourite music, and these days I am loving the excellent HIP recording by John Eliot Gardiner and his Orchestre Revolutionnaire et Romantique. The tempos are usually a bit fast, and that gives the music a great rushed quality which is actually breathtakingly original and invigorating. I have grown tired of Karajan's weighty sound, and Kleiber's fire-power (perhaps this is only a temporary phase).


----------



## SixFootScowl

shangoyal said:


> I think the Appassionata is the angry and mad Beethoven at his best - the one who wanted to twist destiny's arm and get his heart's will realised.


Ah yes, the Appassionata. What a wonderful work!



> He [Beethoven] just consecrated the _Eroica_ the queen of his first eight symphonies, he awards to the _Appassionata_ the first place among his sonatas. After this, the conqueror does not renew the same combat. It is not in his nature to return on his own traces, after the manner of Haydn and Mozart, who, when a work pleased them, made a whole series of cakes out of the same flour.


From Beethoven the Creator, by Romain Rolland. The book is about the highly creative period in Beethoven's life between 1803 and 1806.


----------



## Eviticus

Sky Arts 2 have been doing a series breaking down some of Beethoven's works and analysing them if UK people with Sky TV are interested. Last one i saw was about Piano sonata no.30.

On another thread; i was pleasantly surprised that so many other members rated Waldstein amongst their favourite sonata's. Here's hoping Sky Arts look at that one.


----------



## hpowders

Waldstein is fantastic!


----------



## SixFootScowl

A couple years ago I got into a groove listening to all the Beethoven piano sonatas and nothing else. As I recall, they all are wonderful. I shall have to revisit them sometime soon.


----------



## hpowders

Listen to the Annie Fischer set. Incredible consistency throughout the 32. Most satisfying.
It's Ann Arbor's choice.


----------



## Itullian

Gilels, Arrau and Kempff for me.


----------



## moody

hpowders said:


> Listen to the Annie Fischer set. Incredible consistency throughout the 32. Most satisfying.
> It's Ann Arbor's choice.


Who's Ann Arbor.


----------



## Itullian

moody said:


> Who's Ann Arbor.


:lol:..............


----------



## SixFootScowl

moody said:


> Who's Ann Arbor.


Only Ann Arbor I know of is the city in Michigan, home of University of Michigan where I saw Handel's Messiah last December.


----------



## Ingélou

Florestan said:


> Only Ann Arbor I know of is the city in Michigan, home of University of Michigan where I saw Handel's Messiah last December.


I remember she produced a lot of good books that I read when I was doing my ballad research!


----------



## Skilmarilion

hpowders said:


> Waldstein is fantastic!


To say the very least.


----------



## moody

moody said:


> Who's Ann Arbor.


II thought it was a girl friend.


----------



## hpowders

moody said:


> Who's Ann Arbor.


 The poster is from just outside of Detroit. The only area near Detroit having a cultural heartbeat is called Ann Arbor. It is home to the University of Michigan, one of the top universities in the US. So I was guessing that's where the poster is from. It's a loverly place; fine restaurants and art galleries, smart kids, good looking women, etc; Need I go on?


----------



## Vaneyes

LvB Symphony No. 8 arrives under Tom Service's microscope. I agree with the suggested COE/Harnoncourt recording. RPO/Scherchen could've been mentioned also (YT link provided). :tiphat:

http://www.theguardian.com/music/tomserviceblog/2014/feb/11/symphony-guide-beethoven-eighth

http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLBC0240CE73E27C10


----------



## hpowders

For the musically adventurous, I'm recommending the 32 keyboard sonatas as played by Ronald Brautigam on fortepianos.

Different fortepianos are used throughout Beethoven's development and the instruments get more sophisticated accordingly.

The fortepianos are reconstructions of fortepianos (Broadwoods) available during Beethoven's time and played by Him.

So wonderful to hear this music on instruments they were composed for.

Terrific performances! Highly recommended!


----------



## shangoyal

I am really beginning to love early Beethoven. Among today's favourites:

Septet Op. 20
String Quartets Op. 18
Violin Sonatas Op. 12


----------



## DaDirkNL

shangoyal said:


> I am really beginning to love early Beethoven. Among today's favourites:
> 
> Septet Op. 20
> String Quartets Op. 18
> Violin Sonatas Op. 12


Have you heard the piano quintet yet?


----------



## shangoyal

DaDirkNL said:


> Have you heard the piano quintet yet?


Nope! Think I will now.


----------



## KenOC

Today is the 190th anniversary of the first performance of the Choral Symphony. May be handy in planning your listening.


----------



## Vaneyes

KenOC said:


> Today is the 19th anniversary of the first performance of the Choral Symphony. May be handy in planning your listening.


Just the 19th?


----------



## KenOC

Vaneyes said:


> Just the 19th?


Years are real long where I live... :lol:


----------



## shangoyal

KenOC said:


> Today is the 190th anniversary of the first performance of the Choral Symphony. May be handy in planning your listening.


Well, with how much I have already listened to the work, there might pass 190 weeks before I go to it again.


----------



## hpowders

Me too. Most Beethoven for me is on the do not approach list. All my fault.


----------



## hpowders

HOWEVER, I've recently listened to a sparkling performance of the Diabelli Variations by Vladimir Ashkenazy. Wow! Terrific!


----------



## Vaneyes

A book review, *Beethoven: The Man Revealed *by John Suchet.

http://www.weeklystandard.com/articles/hello-beethoven_793477.html?nopager=1


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## KenOC

Vaneyes said:


> A book review, *Beethoven: The Man Revealed *by John Suchet.
> 
> http://www.weeklystandard.com/articles/hello-beethoven_793477.html?nopager=1


Thanks Vaneyes. Based on that review, and others, I think it's safe to give this book a pass.


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## Blake

hpowders said:


> Me too. Most Beethoven for me is on the do not approach list. All my fault.


I'm confident it'll regain vitality. I had to give Beethoven a break for a decent bit as my mind was turning it into dullness because of overfamiliarity, but just today I had this sudden urge to dive into his works again... and they sound so fresh.

I'm sure that's one of the marks of a genius. Oh, and Beethoven is great, too.


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## SottoVoce

shangoyal said:


> I am really beginning to love early Beethoven. Among today's favourites:
> 
> Septet Op. 20
> String Quartets Op. 18
> Violin Sonatas Op. 12


The early sonatas are superb, among Beethoven's best. Op. 10 no 3, op 7 (Grand Sonata) stand out as masterful. The op. 9 trios also stood out for me too. The Cella Sonatas are wonderful (The 2nd, G Minor, has around a 5 minute introduction, giving the Seventh Symphonies long introduction a run for its money). There is much more to be recommended.


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## hpowders

Vesuvius said:


> I'm confident it'll regain vitality. I had to give Beethoven a break for a decent bit as my mind was turning it into dullness because of overfamiliarity, but just today I had this sudden urge to dive into his works again... and they sound so fresh.
> 
> I'm sure that's one of the marks of a genius. Oh, and Beethoven is great, too.


You are probably right. I tend to concentrate on one composer over months, play him to death and then predictably, get tired of that composer, shelve him and repeat the process with a different composer.

I can't seem to program a healthy mix of works by different composers in any given day.

A quirk of listening that I can't seem to change.

One good sign. I went back to the Hammerklavier sonata a few weeks ago, after swearing off Beethoven, due to overexposure and it went well.

My favorite symphony is the Pastoral, but I still can't listen to it yet. I'm sure I will eventually.

It's happened before with Beethoven. But I've always come back.


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## shangoyal

Finally getting to understand his piano concertos. The 3rd and the 5th are very good indeed. I guess I was missing this part of his personality, which is neither _adamant, brusque and angry_ nor _praying to the heavens and speaking in hymns_.

One man can have many, many shades.


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## hpowders

Yes. Compare the first piano concerto with the third. Different shades indeed!


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## KenOC

hpowders said:


> Yes. Compare the first piano concerto with the third. Different shades indeed!


A quote from a Beethoven letter: "An artist must be able to assume many humors."


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## EdwardBast

shangoyal said:


> Finally getting to understand his piano concertos. The 3rd and the 5th are very good indeed. I guess I was missing this part of his personality, which is neither _adamant, brusque and angry_ nor _praying to the heavens and speaking in hymns_.
> 
> One man can have many, many shades.


Don't forget the comic: The Piano Sonata Op. 31, #3, the first movement of the String Quartet Op. 135, and lots of others are sustained comedies.


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## Skilmarilion

shangoyal said:


> Finally getting to understand his piano concertos. The 3rd and the 5th are very good indeed. I guess I was missing this part of his personality, which is neither _adamant, brusque and angry_ nor _praying to the heavens and speaking in hymns_.


Don't discard the 2nd (which is in fact the 1st written). Wonderfully Mozartian, with a youthful vigour.


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## Vaneyes

The Guardian's Service looks at *LvB's *Symphony 6. Scherchen (1958), Walter (1958), HvK (1976), and Harnoncourt (1990) recs. should be considered.

http://www.theguardian.com/music/to...y-guide-beethovens-sixth-pastoral-tom-service


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## SixFootScowl

Rondo said:


> This new forum section has shown to be a pretty good idea. I guess I'll contribute by adding a classic, one of the "Three B's": Beethoven.
> For a while my exposure had mainly been limited to his symphonies, sonatas and concertos. After that, I discovered just how much more there really is out there.
> 
> Outside of the "main" repertoire (symphonies, concertos and sonatas), some favorites include:
> 
> Choral Fantasy in C minor
> _The Consecration of the House_
> _Egmont_
> _The Ruins of Athens_
> _Wellington's Victory_ (hard to ignore)
> _Fidelio_/ _Leonore_
> and _Coriolan_


Here is my favorite Wellington's Victory, complete with real guns and cannon:









Don't forget Creatures of Prometheus is a great work.

For Fidelio, for me none beat the 1978 Bernstein conducted edition with Gundula Janowitz as Leonora.

And then check out the Trio (Op. 36) which is a transcription of Symphony 2 for piano, violin and cello (and with the same Opus number as the Symphony).


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## Blake

I'm feeling a serious Beethoven mood coming on. Diving into some string trios now. Fondness grows from a bit of absence.


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## HaydnBearstheClock

Vesuvius said:


> I'm feeling a serious Beethoven mood coming on. Diving into some string trios now. Fondness grows from a bit of absence.
> 
> View attachment 48461
> 
> View attachment 48463


I've been on a sort of Beethoven kick too, recently.


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## hpowders

Beethoven is still verboten in my house for now. Over-played. Not his fault. MINE!!!


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## DiesIraeCX

Hey Beethoven, remember that time when you wrote that part that goes like this, "Da-Da-Da-DAAAAAAAAA!"? Yeah, that was awesome.

http://24.media.tumblr.com/8b381b949836cd908041ed29a52b2106/tumblr_mhhhp2KS8M1qfr6udo3_400.gif


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## MoonlightSonata

The second movement of the Emperor concerto can only be described as divine.
The Moonlight Sonata, as my username suggests, is also one of my favourites. That third movement!


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## hpowders

One of the trailblazers of the HIP movement, Christopher Hogwood died today at 73.
He made some memorable "original instruments" performances of Beethoven Symphonies.


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## Headphone Hermit

^^^ and a revealing set of the piano concertos too


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## hpowders

^^^Don't ask me why, but I usually prefer to give the keyboard player top billing here rather than the conductor.

Just one of my many idiot-syncracies, I guess.


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## SixFootScowl

Fascinating article on Beethoven HERE.


----------



## Vaneyes

Florestan said:


> Fascinating article on Beethoven HERE.


Thanks, I was just reading this Alex Ross writing. Idolatry of LvB has stunted other composer growth? Those who have great respect for LvB's music are in a LvB Cult?

Space-filling drivel? Again, maybe it's best to just listen to and perhaps enjoy the music, instead of paying particular heed to regular columns that must be written to earn a living.


----------



## JACE

Certain artists cast long shadows. But we are the beneficiaries of their creations. We get to read what they've written, look at what they've painted, and listen to their compositions.

How could that be a bad thing?


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## hpowders

Of course it's not!! I just wonder, do we really need another comprehensive tome about Beethoven?


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## JACE

I'm not gonna knock Swafford because he wrote a "comprehensive tome" about *CHARLES IVES* first! 

With those bona fides, he can write about whoever & whatever he darn well pleases, as far as I'm concerned!


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## Vaneyes

Mini rant alert.

I like to think (hopefully/optimistically) that a book consists of more profound thought, research, writing...than an almost thought-of-the-week column.

I've read columns that have the stuff to be a book, but they're few and far between.


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## KenOC

Well, tastes vary. I usually find Ross's columns interesting and good reading, and he _has _authored one very popular book. The New Yorker could do a lot worse.

In this case, the impetus of the column seems to be Swafford's new Beethoven biography. I was very doubtful that this book would bring much new to the table, but it did. Not so much specifically about Beethoven (although there is a fair amount of that) but about his friends, his patrons, his society, and the intellectual movements that directly affected his own thinking and attitudes.

I'm about a third of the way through -- he's starting to noodle on the Eroica...wonder how that will turn out?


----------



## Guest

KenOC said:


> [...] I'm about a third of the way through -- *he's starting to noodle on the Eroica...wonder how that will turn out?*


Oh, that's a given : E-flat major ... horn crooks ... hunting metaphors ... heroism ... Beethoven's favorite key ...


----------



## hpowders

Vaneyes said:


> Mini rant alert.
> 
> I like to think (hopefully/optimistically) that a book consists of more profound thought, research, writing...than an almost thought-of-the-week column.
> 
> I've read columns that have the stuff to be a book, but they're few and far between.


If there was something so profound and new in the recent Beethoven book, don't you think it would have already electrified the classical music community, long before the publishing date?


----------



## Vaneyes

hpowders said:


> If there was something so profound and new in the new book, don't you think it would have already made excited headlines in the classical music community already?


Yes, I didn't expect it, but I wasn't criticizing Swafford. Ross displays a lot of his own material for us to consider. Swafford is merely the convenient horse for Ross to hitch his stuff to.

What's particularly tacky, is Ross explaining that Swafford's book is an introductory book, not specialized. Then, shortly thereafter, Ross compares Swafford's book to the specialists books, and criticizes him on several points not dealt with.

Ross needs to bug off and write his own book about, The Beethoven Cult.


----------



## hpowders

I hate Alex Ross. Whenever I hear Brünnhilde sing the word "ross" in Götterdämerung, I cringe.


----------



## Blancrocher

Looks like Pollini's box set of the complete sonatas should be available within a month. I was afraid he was going to pull a Gilels and not quite finish his cycle.


----------



## Itullian

Happy Birthday Ludwig.

Thank you for all the incredible music.
:tiphat: :angel:


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde

Happy birthday! I listened to Beethoven yesterday but not today....ah well.


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## hpowders

While I have your ear, could you perhaps recompose Symphony No. 1 and Piano Concerto No. 2?


----------



## Skilmarilion

hpowders said:


> While I have your ear, could you perhaps recompose Symphony No. 1 and Piano Concerto No. 2?


Boo. The 2nd concerto is pure delight. :tiphat:



ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> Happy birthday! I listened to Beethoven yesterday but not today....ah well.


Ditto. I played through the 10th and 15th quartets yesterday -- they'll serve nicely as birthday treats.


----------



## DiesIraeCX

Happy 244th birthday, I think I'll listen to the Ninth today in celebration, or maybe op. 132.


----------



## Stavrogin

hpowders said:


> *While I have your ear*, could you perhaps recompose Symphony No. 1 and Piano Concerto No. 2?


:lol:

..........


----------



## hpowders

Stavrogin said:


> :lol:
> 
> ..........


What's so funny? Isn't this the place we can speak directly to the composers? 

I'm not overloading Him with requests; not intending to give Beethoven an _earful_; just a simple request to recompose a couple of pieces.

Maybe he only communicates with other people in the _hear_-after.


----------



## Stavrogin

hpowders said:


> What's so funny? Isn't this the place we can speak directly to the composers?
> 
> I'm not overloading Him with requests; not intending to give Beethoven an _earful_; just a simple request to recompose a couple of pieces.
> 
> Maybe he only communicates with other people in the _hear_-after.


_Deaf_initely...!


----------



## ComposerOfAvantGarde

hpowders said:


> While I have your ear, could you perhaps recompose Symphony No. 1 and Piano Concerto No. 2?


Immense amount of dislike for this post. Those pieces are incredibly well written and I love em to bits!


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## Hmmbug

I brought a "Happy Birthday Beethoven" sign to school today and was met with some very odd looks.

Besides the fact that he is more important than almost anyone else in history, is no one familiar with Schroeder?


----------



## Itullian




----------



## MoonlightSonata

Hmmbug said:


> I brought a "Happy Birthday Beethoven" sign to school today and was met with some very odd looks.
> 
> Besides the fact that he is more important than almost anyone else in history, is no one familiar with Schroeder?
> 
> View attachment 58861


I shouted "HAPPY 244TH BEETHOVEN" and got some similar reactions.


----------



## Hmmbug

MoonlightSonata said:


> I shouted "HAPPY 244TH BEETHOVEN" and got some similar reactions.


I go to an arts school, too...


----------



## science

What are the recordings I should know well before I can feel confident that I know Beethoven?


----------



## Albert7

science said:


> What are the recordings I should know well before I can feel confident that I know Beethoven?


Kleiber's recording on DG of the 5th and 7th symphonies is a must have.


----------



## Vaneyes

science said:


> What are the recordings I should know well before I can feel confident that I know Beethoven?


Here are the works IMO. Re recs, I have my preferences, but these are so well recorded, that there are probably four or five artists/collaborations for each that I could happily live with.

Piano Concerti; Violin Concerto; Symphonies 3 - 9; String Quartets; Piano Trios "Ghost", "Archduke"; Cello Sonatas; Violin Sonatas 4, 5, 9; Piano Sonatas. :tiphat:


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## hpowders

If you really want to know Beethoven, one must explore the late piano sonatas beginning with the Hammerklavier, all the late string quartets and the Missa Solemnis, arguably his greatest composition.


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## Guest

hpowders said:


> If you really want to know Beethoven, one must explore the late piano sonatas beginning with the Hammerklavier, all the late string quartets and the Missa Solemnis, arguably his greatest composition.


Sorry HP, can't agree with you there. To get the full picture of Beethoven means precisely that - the entire oeuvre needs to be considered. As to the the _Missa solemnis_ ("more respected than loved") being his greatest composition, well I certainly would like to see it get more of an outing, but ...


----------



## DavidA

hpowders said:


> While I have your ear, could you perhaps recompose Symphony No. 1 and Piano Concerto No. 2?


Both these pieces are, of course, early LvB. But in the hands of the right interpreter they are really fine and enjoyable.

Try Karajan in Symphony 1 and Serkin in Piano concerto 2


----------



## DavidA

hpowders said:


> If you really want to know Beethoven, one must explore the late piano sonatas beginning with the Hammerklavier, all the late string quartets and the Missa Solemnis, arguably his greatest composition.


i would add, however, that to really appreciate these works you need to have the background of what comes before - some real groundbreaking stuff.


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## hpowders

And I have to add, the Pastoral Symphony. Beethoven was in love with nature!

Oh how I would have loved to accompany him on one of his long walks through the Vienna woods!


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## DavidA

hpowders said:


> And I have to add, the Pastoral Symphony. Beethoven was in love with nature!
> 
> Oh how I would have loved to accompany him on one of his long walks through the Vienna woods!


the problem is he would probably have fallen out with you by the end of the walk. He appears to have done that on a regular basis with his friends!


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## DavidA

Can I recommend Swaffords new biography of Beethoven. Great read!


----------



## DiesIraeCX

science said:


> What are the recordings I should know well before I can feel confident that I know Beethoven?


science, my eyes lit up when I read this. Recommend some Beethoven recording? You got it. Rather than overwhelm you, I'll keep it down to a recording or two (or three ) for each genre.

I feel that Beethoven's three greatest genres were the string quartet, symphony, and piano sonata.

For *String Quartets*, I wholeheartedly and emphatically recommend the *Takacs Quartet*. For all of them, but especially the Late and Middle quartets where they especially shine. Their recording of the late quartets is my personal "holy grail" among my collection. There is an absolute wealth of recordings of these great works, but there is something truly unique about the Takacs.

For piano sonatas, *Maurizio Pollini's *recording of the *late piano sonatas* (beginning with #28 and not #29 "Hammerklavier") is essential. I'd even recommend him for the entire sonata cycle but I understand he isnt for everyone, *Gilels* and *Kempff* are also great. Kempff for that old-school Romantic approach. I'd still stand by Pollini for the entire cycle, overall it's great. I also have *Pollini for the Diabelli Variations*.

The symphonies, you can't go wrong with *Karajan/Berlin-1963 or Ferenc Fricsay for the Ninth*. *Kleiber for the Fifth and Seventh*, big surprise, I know, but they really are that great. I really enjoy *Bernstein/NYP for the Eroica*, but also *Gardiner* for a lean, fiery, and impassioned interpretation on period instruments, and *Zinman* for the same HIP style of performance, but with modern instruments. *Bruno Walter, 100% for the Sixth "Pastoral"*, he made me go from liking the Sixth to it being of my favorite symphonies. I have KenOC to thank for that recommendation. *Scratchgolf swears by Böhm*.

I'm very adamant about *John Eliot Gardiner's Missa Solemnis*, it's the best I've heard. It's incredibly moving. For the* piano concertos*, it's hard to go wrong with *Leon Fleisher/George Szell*.

The above-mentioned are the recordings that I swear by. Here are some other recordings that I enjoy, but due to my lack of hearing many other interpretations, I can't meaningfully swoon over them. I'll just say that you can rest easy in knowing you'll hear a great interpretation.

*Rostropovich/Richter for the Cello Sonatas*. The late period 4th is my favorite, "most singular and most strange", indeed. Maisky/Argerich is also good, if you want a more modern performance.

*Perlman/Ashkenazy for the Violin Sonatas*. My favorites are, in this order, #10, #9 "Kreutzer", #7, and #5 "Spring". These two guys are my go-to.

Enjoy, and please let me know if you'd like any other recommendation!


----------



## DavidA

science said:


> What are the recordings I should know well before I can feel confident that I know Beethoven?


I'd say listen to the piano sonatas played by Fischer, Kempff, Serkin and Richter.

Symphonies by Karajan 1963 / 1970 with the 5th and 7th Kleiber (fils) and 6th Bohm.

String Quartets by Takacs

Piano concertos by Fleisher, Serkin or Gould.

Missa Solemnis Karajan 1965


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## SixFootScowl

DiesIraeVIX said:


> I'm very adamant about *John Eliot Gardiner's Missa Solemnis*, it's the best I've heard. It's incredibly moving. For the* piano concertos*, it's hard to go wrong with *Leon Fleisher/George Szell*.


Have you listened to Ormandy's Missa Solemnis? It is my absolute favorite and I do have Gardiner among about 6 or 7 Missa Solemnis performances.


----------



## hpowders

DavidA said:


> the problem is he would probably have fallen out with you by the end of the walk. He appears to have done that on a regular basis with his friends!


It would have been well worth it. I think just about everybody on TC would have assumed that risk for the chance!


----------



## hpowders

The best Missa Solemnis I have ever heard is the one led by Otto Klemperer. Monumental!


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## KenOC

hpowders said:


> The best Missa Solemnis I have ever heard is the one led by Otto Klemperer. Monumental!


Gardiner's old Missa tied Klemperer's, and his new one beats it. Even if you disagree you'll have to admit that Gardiner has the better album cover.


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## SixFootScowl

I did not know Gardiner recorded the Missa Solemnis more than once. I have this older one:


----------



## KenOC

If you like his first recording, you'll love his second!


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## hpowders

KenOC said:


> Gardiner's old Missa tied Klemperer's, and his new one beats it. Even if you disagree you'll have to admit that Gardiner has the better album cover.


Looks like just a normal summer day in ******* land where I've decided to park my butt.

Down here, the talk is more "which makes a better burger, gator or crock meat?"

I've yet to hear any debate on the Missa Solemnis, although tomorrow is another day.

With me the glass is always half full!


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## hpowders

KenOC said:


> If you like his first recording, you'll love his second!


I'll gladly pay you Saturday for the second Gardiner today.


----------



## Mandryka

science said:


> What are the recordings I should know well before I can feel confident that I know Beethoven?


One I think you should listen to is Paul Jacobs playing op 10/3, on an Arbiter CD. The reason I say this is that Jacobs uses fast speeds to give an impression of both power and playfulness - and I think that power and playfulness are at the heart of Beethoven's art.


----------



## Mandryka

DavidA said:


> I'd say listen to the piano sonatas played by Fischer, Kempff, Serkin and Richter.
> 
> Symphonies by Karajan 1963 / 1970 with the 5th and 7th Kleiber (fils) and 6th Bohm.
> 
> String Quartets by Takacs
> 
> Piano concertos by Fleisher, Serkin or Gould.
> 
> Missa Solemnis Karajan 1965


There's a Missa Solemnis by Karajan, made in 1976, on EMI, with Janowitz, Van Dam, Baltsa, Schreier and BPO. I think that's his best, and one of the best Missas I've ever heard.


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## MoonlightSonata

I went to a lovely concert of Beethoven's works recently, and it was my first hearing of the third Piano Concerto. What a divine work!


----------



## KenOC

MoonlightSonata said:


> I went to a lovely concert of Beethoven's works recently, and it was my first hearing of the third Piano Concerto. What a divine work!


Beethoven's 3rd Piano Concerto, from a contemporary review: "This concerto is among the most important works published by this genial master in recent years. In certain aspects it may even excel above all others. In none of his latest works does the reviewer find so many beautiful and noble ideas, such a thorough execution that does not tend to the bombastic or contrived, such a firm character without excesses, or such unity. Wherever it can be performed well, it will have the greatest and most beautiful effect. Even in Leipzig, where one is used to hearing the greater Mozart concertos performed well and where one views them with justifiable preference, this will be and has already been the case.

...with respect to its effect on the mind and its impact, this concerto is one of the most excellent among all that have ever been written." (1805)


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## hpowders

Florestan said:


> I did not know Gardiner recorded the Missa Solemnis more than once. I have this older one:


I have this one. Rather fast, no?


----------



## SixFootScowl

hpowders said:


> I have this one. Rather fast, no?


It's been a long time since I listened to it. I just recall that it did not satisfy me like the Ormandy Missa Solemnis does.


----------



## hpowders

From memory, I think it takes around 72 minutes. Bernstein took close to 75 if I recall.

I never knew Ormandy recorded it.

I looked up the new Gardiner. It clocks in at about 70 minutes.


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## hpowders

For a very fine modern Missa Solemnis, I recommend the Leonard Bernstein/Concertgebouw recording. One of Bernstein's finest moments.


----------



## DavidA

Mandryka said:


> There's a Missa Solemnis by Karajan, made in 1976, on EMI, with Janowitz, Van Dam, Baltsa, Schreier and BPO. I think that's his best, and one of the best Missas I've ever heard.


I think it is a matter of roundabouts and swings with the 60s and 70s Missas from Karajan. To me the 65 just gets it as a result of its rapt spiritual quality.


----------



## elmago

Hi Rondo:
I teach music appreciation, and was talking to my class about The Ruins of Athens, is this part of an opera that is associated with Beethoven? Interested in knowing know more about this particular pieces history. Thanks! El Mago


----------



## SixFootScowl

elmago said:


> Hi Rondo:
> I teach music appreciation, and was talking to my class about The Ruins of Athens, is this part of an opera that is associated with Beethoven? Interested in knowing know more about this particular pieces history. Thanks! El Mago


Not an opera from what I have read and remember, but music for a stage work or something like that. Beethoven did several of this type of work: Creatures of Prometheaus, Egmont, Christ on the Mount of Olives. The only opera Beethoven composed was Fidelio, and the development of that opera is quite the interesting story spanning about 10 to 15 years as I recall.

Also: Welcome elmago!


----------



## DiesIraeCX

elmago said:


> Hi Rondo:
> I teach music appreciation, and was talking to my class about The Ruins of Athens, is this part of an opera that is associated with Beethoven? Interested in knowing know more about this particular pieces history. Thanks! El Mago


The Ruins of Athens was a play by August von Kotzebue, it was to be the dedication for the opening of a new grand theater at Pest, Hungary.

In 1808 Emperor Franz had sanctioned the building at Pest of "an entirely new grand theater with Ridotto room, casino, restaurant and coffeehouse"... It was time, therefore to consider the programme for the its opening performances, and as no living musician could give the occasion so much splendor as Beethoven, it was of high importance that his consent to compose the music should be secured as early as possible. This, through Brunsvik and other Hungarian friends, was no difficult task. Although not completed in 1810, the enterprise was so far advanced that the authorities begain their preliminary arrangements for its formal opening on the Emperor's name-day, October 4, 1811, by applying to Heinrich von Collin to write an appropriate drama on some subject drawn from Hungarian history, for the occasion. " The piece was to be associated with a lyrical prologue and a musical epilogue". "The fear that he could not complete the work within the prescribed time and that his labors would be disturbed, compelled Collin to decline the commission with thanks." The order was then given to Kotzebue, who accepted it, and, with characteristic rapidity, responded with the prologue _Ungarns erster Wohlater_ (Hungary's first Benefactor), the drama _Belas Flucht_ (Bela's Flight), and the epilogue _Die Ruinen von Athen_ (The Ruins of Athens). As Emperor Franz had twice fled from his capital within five years, it is not surprising that "Bela's Flight" for various reasons cannot be given" and gave place to a local piece, _The Elevation of Pesth into a Royal Free City_. Kotzebue's other two pieces were sent to Beethoven at the end of July, 1811...

The work was then sent off to Beethoven during a journey to Teplitz, and that he started the work three weeks later, about August 20th, Beethoven's correspondence, then, implies that all this incidental music was completed in less than a month. Other ideas, such as the "Marcia all Turca" which was already used in the Piano Variations, Op. 76, may have originated earlier.

*- From Thayer/Forbes exhaustive and authoritative Beethoven biography, Thayer's Life of Beethoven.*

















- Kotzebue, pictured, 1761 - 1819


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## hpowders

hpowders said:


> For a very fine modern Missa Solemnis, I recommend the Leonard Bernstein/Concertgebouw recording. One of Bernstein's finest moments.


I was about to "like" this post as it showed deep perception and taste, until I realized it was my own.


----------



## SixFootScowl

hpowders said:


> I was about to "like" this post as it showed deep perception and taste, until I realized it was my own.


Instead of the thread about limiting the number of posts one can make in a day, we need a thread for software modification to allow people to like their own posts. It would be a great way to add emphasis to what you are saying. But in lieu of that (which will never happen) we can at least put this at the end of our greatest posts:


----------



## hpowders

Florestan said:


> Instead of the thread about limiting the number of posts one can make in a day, we need a thread for software modification to allow people to like their own posts. It would be a great way to add emphasis to what you are saying. But in lieu of that (which will never happen) we can at least put this at the end of our greatest posts:


Yes! A "narcissistic like". Count me in!!! :tiphat:


----------



## manyene

After a week reading Swafford's biography of Beethoven, went to a performance of his Choral Symphony to mark the 175th Anniversary of the founding of the Liverpool Philharmonic Society. A choir of 140 and a packed house at the Philharmonic Hall. This must have been the seventh or eighth live performance I have attended, and every time I hear something new and marvel at the genius of a man who by that stage in his life could only hear music in his head. There is so much that is novel, the trombones leading the bass of the choir; the fourth horn that plays music that is beyond the capacity of the valveless horn (yet Beethoven knew of a player who had an early version of the modern form)-this apart from the whole structure of the Symphony itself.

The Swafford biography came up with the new detail, to me, that after its first performance in Vienna, the composer had considered removing the finale and replacing it with a purely orchestra movement. I think we should be glad he didn't carry out this intention. All three of the orchestral end questioningly, especially the first with that grinding bassline. The Symphony needed a positive ending to convey the message of hope delivered in the D major final pages.


----------



## Templeton

manyene said:


> After a week reading Swafford's biography of Beethoven, went to a performance of his Choral Symphony to mark the 175th Anniversary of the founding of the Liverpool Philharmonic Society. A choir of 140 and a packed house at the Philharmonic Hall.


I was there too and posted, on the topic, elsewhere on the forum. I have to say that your review does far greater justice to the occasion than my rather pithy effort but it's clear that we both, along with everybody else, in attendance, by the sound of things, really enjoyed ourselves.


----------



## manyene

Tenpleton,

It's always good to come across someone who attended the same concert. A great event that I'd been looking forward to some time .


----------



## KenOC

Andras Schiff gave a series of lectures from the keyboard on LvB's piano sonatas, one per sonata (two for the Hammerklavier). 18 hours in total, these lectures are entertaining and extremely informative. Anybody interested in the sonatas should have them.

Unfortunately, they have disappeared from their home at the Wigmore Hall site for some reason. I am making them available for a time and urge you to download them in the next few days. Here's the link.

http://1drv.ms/1BNkK1R


----------



## KenOC

Wigmore Hall has let me know the new address for the Schiff lectures, so please ignore my previous post and fetch them from there, thanks.

http://wigmore-hall.org.uk/podcasts/andras-schiff-beethoven-lecture-recitals


----------



## padraic

What are this crowd's favorite performances of the piano sonatas?


----------



## Weston

^I like the recent Andras Schiff cycle with the smudgy graphic art covers. (Recent to me being within the last decade or so.) I have that and the Naxos Jando versions for a good no nonsense transparent performance. I also have a smattering of Richter and Pollini that are very nice.


----------



## DiesIraeCX

Weston bringing up Andras Schiff's cycle reminds me of a couple of questions I had pertaining to that set. I'm not able to find them in a complete cycle, rather than separate recordings, is there one and I'm just really bad at finding stuff? If there isn't, do you know if there are plans for one in the future? Doesn't really make much sense to keep them in separate recordings. 

Secondly, where does Schiff excel, the early, middle, or late sonatas? I've read that he's not as strong in the late sonatas, just as Pollini isn't as strong in the early sonatas as he is in the late period ones.


----------



## Weston

I'd say Schiff excels at the Pathetique and prior, so the early ones, but I hear nothing wrong with the rest of them. 

I have never heard of his cycle being combined in a boxed set. I accumulated it little by little.  I love those covers though.


----------



## hpowders

padraic said:


> What are this crowd's favorite performances of the piano sonatas?


Annie Fischer's complete set. Legendary!


----------



## DiesIraeCX

I hope that Andreas Staier starts performing and recording a sonata cycle on fortepiano, considering the strength of his Diabelli Variations. 

I enjoy Ronald Brautigam's Beethoven sonatas on fortepiano, but I'm not entirely sold on them.


----------



## tardigrade

I really like his 'Waldstein' sonata, especially the last movement. And also the 'Appassionata', as stated before. I agree with Ephemerid, the 6th symphony is one of my favorites.


----------



## MoonlightSonata

Which "Hammerklavier" recordings do people recommend? I haven't really given it much time, and would like to listen to the best performances.


----------



## hpowders

MoonlightSonata said:


> Which "Hammerklavier" recordings do people recommend? I haven't really given it much time, and would like to listen to the best performances.


My favorites are Annie Fischer and Rudolf Serkin on piano.

I have another good one but it's HIP. Don't know if you would be interested.


----------



## MoonlightSonata

hpowders said:


> My favorites are Annie Fischer and Rudolf Serkin on piano.
> 
> I have another good one but it's HIP. Don't know if you would be interested.


Who's the performer?


----------



## hpowders

MoonlightSonata said:


> Who's the performer?


Ronald Brautigam playing a fortepiano modeled after a Conrad Graf piano from 1819. The kind of sound Beethoven would have been familiar with if he could have heard it.

Terrific performance, by the way.

I have Brautigam's complete Beethoven keyboard sonata set.


----------



## Mandryka

hpowders said:


> Ronald Brautigam playing a fortepiano modeled after a Conrad Graf piano from 1819. The kind of sound Beethoven would have been familiar with if he could have heard it.
> 
> Terrific performance, by the way.
> 
> I have Brautigam's complete Beethoven keyboard sonata set.


See what you think of this one -- just the fugue, that's all that's on youtube, played by John Kouhri


----------



## HaydnBearstheClock

I like that wide melody that Beethoven introduces in his F minor Sonata, Op. 2 No. 1 in the last movement - sounds original and refreshing.


----------



## leroy

Beveridge Webster's Hammerklavier is the best one I've heard, he is one of the few who plays the opening at the 139 metronome mark and to me that sounds like how it was meant to be played.


----------



## leroy

HaydnBearstheClock said:


> I like that wide melody that Beethoven introduces in his F minor Sonata, Op. 2 No. 1 in the last movement - sounds original and refreshing.


I think He does that alot, I just saw a live performance of his 32nd piano sonata and its amazing how modern it seemed to be.


----------



## HaydnBearstheClock

leroy said:


> I think He does that alot, I just saw a live performance of his 32nd piano sonata and its amazing how modern it seemed to be.


That last movement is definitely great, I'll need to explore all of Beethoven's sonatas in detail.


----------



## double

trio for 2 oboes and english horn!


----------



## HaydnBearstheClock

Listening to the Hammerklavier sonata, played by Jenő Jandó - lots of great music here. Both Schubert and Chopin took quite a bit from here, imo.


----------



## Weston

Are there any recommendations for a boxed set of Beethoven violin sonatas. Mine are a bit hit and miss, many of them played on period instruments (Ralph Holmes, Stradivarius violin; Richard Burnet, Graf fortepiano). While this sounds interesting, I'd rather have a version on more modern instruments.

I have heard the Leonidas Kavakos 2013 set on Spotify and found them too virtuoso and with the mic too close to the performer's sinus condition for my taste. I don't think picking up every nuance is always the best idea. Any other good ones?


----------



## KenOC

Beethoven Violin Sonatas: Mutter/Orkis is great on modern instruments. Seiler/Immerseel is very good as HIP.


----------



## DiesIraeCX

I'm perfectly fine with my Perlman/Ashkenazy duo for the violin sonatas. Can't go wrong!


----------



## Mandryka

Weston said:


> Are there any recommendations for a boxed set of Beethoven violin sonatas. Mine are a bit hit and miss, many of them played on period instruments (Ralph Holmes, Stradivarius violin; Richard Burnet, Graf fortepiano). While this sounds interesting, I'd rather have a version on more modern instruments.
> 
> I have heard the Leonidas Kavakos 2013 set on Spotify and found them too virtuoso and with the mic too close to the performer's sinus condition for my taste. I don't think picking up every nuance is always the best idea. Any other good ones?


Yes, I think you should listen to Schneiderhan / Kempff. Schneiderhan / Kempff has long been my favourite because it's elegant and aristocratic. This noble way with Beethoven really appeals to me. The heroic idealism in Beethoven is a dignified thing. Not a whirl, a scrum, of passion.


----------



## HaydnBearstheClock

Been recently exploring the Alban Berg set of Beethoven's quartets. Excellent stuff, really enjoying this.


----------



## KenOC

*Beethoven piano sonata course on-line*

Jonathan Biss has added five new Beethoven sonatas to his Coursera course. These seem (to me) better done than the ones in the original course. He's planning on doing all the sonatas.

The course is now on-demand and may be dipped into any time, which is nice. Free of course.

https://www.coursera.org/learn/beethoven-piano-sonatas


----------



## Weston

Mandryka said:


> Yes, I think you should listen to Schneiderhan / Kempff. Schneiderhan / Kempff has long been my favourite because it's elegant and aristocratic. This noble way with Beethoven really appeals to me. The heroic idealism in Beethoven is a dignified thing. Not a whirl, a scrum, of passion.


I appreciate everyone's suggestions. I listened to samples, gave them a soul searching consideration and found them all quite good. I think though my biggest concern especially with chamber music is the recording quality and the violin tone. A lot of these recordings are too good, and I get distracted by all the extraneous sounds captured. So I hope I will be forgiven for settling on this outside-the-box box set from 1999 by Pamela Frank and her father. The violin tone sounds perfect for me.


----------



## padraic

Has anyone heard this on Blu-ray? How's the sound quality?


----------



## Weston

I'm revising my previous doubts about Beethoven's Triple Concerto. There are moments in which he seems to be combining chamber and orchestral music successfully, or alternating between the two, in what would otherwise be a dynamics nightmare. I'm not sure whether this is a first or whether it harkens back to the baroque concerto grosso, but it feels different to me from any other multi-instrument concerto. The themes may not be as vivid as we would like, but the slow movement is quite moving.


----------



## Avey

Weston said:


> I'm revising my previous doubts about Beethoven's Triple Concerto.


Groovy. That being the statement and the fact that you can still change opinion after so many years. ...not pointing out age...

The Triple Concerto, among all the pieces I have heard, probably gets stuck in my head -- or really just _pops_ in my head -- more than any other. I cannot say why either, because while I very much like the piece, it is not one I listen to routinely. But the finishing run between the three soloists at the conclusion of the first movement manifests when I am driving, biking, speaking, sleeping, running, or even LISTENING TO OTHER MUSIC. Yes, that really obvious flurry of notes. Why? I don't know. Mysteries of life. But I would like it to stop!


----------



## Dim7

...........................


----------



## KenOC

The Triple with Gabetta and friends is a real rip-roaring version, guaranteed to find friends for Beethoven's least-favorite concerto.


----------



## WhoseLineFan

This is my favorite Beethoven piece.


----------



## SixFootScowl

My favorite Beethoven pieces are the symphonies, especially 5,6 and 9, Fidelio, Choral Fantasy, Egmont (complete), and the Missa Solemnis.


----------



## ComposerOfAvantGarde

I haven't heard most of his output, but I really like the symphonies, piano concerto no. 4, triple concerto, Fidelio, Choral Fantasy, the fourth piano sonata and Waldstein sonata, the third cello sonata, the op. 18 string quartets, the Große Fuge and the piano quartets. That's most of the things I've heard and there are so many I still want to explore........


----------



## Pugg

All his piano concerto's are great.
Egmond I love most as the Triple concerto .


----------



## Abraham Lincoln




----------



## HaydnBearstheClock

Happy Birthday to Ludwig!!  May his music live eternally - a representation of the human struggle of finding individuality and, at the same time, harmony in a society and a world, which, unfortunately is often filled with death, injustice, etc. However, Beethoven ultimately asserted humanity, and his music will also assert the ability of human beings to create and to overcome their limitations.


----------



## KenOC

HaydnBearstheClock said:


> Happy Birthday to Ludwig!!  May his music live eternally - a representation of the human struggle of finding individuality and, at the same time, harmony in a society and a world, which, unfortunately is often filled with death, injustice, etc. However, Beethoven ultimately asserted humanity, and his music will also assert the ability of human beings to create and to overcome their limitations.


Well said. I think many or most hear Beethoven the same way. And yet, Stravinsky could say that music can represent nothing but itself. I guess one of those two guys was wrong.


----------



## Blancrocher

KenOC said:


> Well said. I think many or most hear Beethoven the same way. And yet, Stravinsky could say that music can represent nothing but itself. I guess one of those two guys was wrong.


In fairness to Stravinsky, I don't think he really meant it.


----------



## Mahlerian

There's also a chance that, as one of the 20th century's preeminent writers on music (at least in her own mind) said, Beethoven's music is indicative of a malevolent, pessimistic worldview.


----------



## Vaneyes

If I may interject, December 17, 1770 was *LvB's* baptismal. There's no official record of his birth. Some think one or two days prior to that date.

*LvB* Bonn walking tour links:

http://www.bonn-region.de/sightseeing-and-culture/beethovenrundgang-en.html


----------



## HaydnBearstheClock

Mahlerian said:


> There's also a chance that, as one of the 20th century's preeminent writers on music (at least in her own mind) said, Beethoven's music is indicative of a malevolent, pessimistic worldview.


There is some of that in Beethoven, but he also has very life-affirming music. Great artists are multifaceted, and Beethoven was one of the greatest.


----------



## Vaneyes

HaydnBearstheClock said:


> There is some of that in Beethoven, but he also has very life-affirming music. Great artists are multifaceted, and Beethoven was one of the greatest.


*LvB* wouldn't have the stature he has, if the overlying theme to his impressive volume of work was pessimism. All emotional bases were covered. He was none too happy about his increased deafness, but Ode to Joy I'd say, is a pretty positive world view testament, and just maybe, of what's to come after. He could've gone down an ordinary path after the disillusionment of the Eroica period, but obviously didn't. Cheers to Ludwig!


----------



## Mahlerian

HaydnBearstheClock said:


> There is some of that in Beethoven, but he also has very life-affirming music. Great artists are multifaceted, and Beethoven was one of the greatest.


Oh, I was joking. There was a poster who joined earlier this year who was very fond of this particular writer and tried to convince everyone about how malevolent Beethoven was.

I agree with you and most others, his music is very optimistic overall.


----------



## Stirling

I know, I should listen to that malevolent worldview - I know I will start with the 7th Symphony.


----------



## Vaneyes

Stirling said:


> I know, I should listen to that malevolent worldview - I know I will start with the 7th Symphony.


And then Mahler 3.


----------



## Vaneyes

*LvB* books.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/books/what-to-read/beethoven-anguish-and-triumph-review-wonderful/


----------



## KenOC

Vaneyes said:


> *LvB* books.
> 
> http://www.telegraph.co.uk/books/what-to-read/beethoven-anguish-and-triumph-review-wonderful/


Probably the best Beethoven book there is. Put it together with Cooper's and there's not a lot left to know. The reviewer is right that most of the new material is in the Bonn years, and it's truly illuminating. But the whole book is fascinating and, unlike the reviewer's claim, not a difficult read at all.


----------



## poconoron

In perusing this thread and the Mozart thread, I can't help noticing a distinct difference:

In the Mozart thread, certain posters can't help themselves in denigrating Mozart to the benefit of Beethoven or some other composer. But here, there seems to be little contrasting Beethoven in a negative light vs. other composers.

Conclusion: _Certain_ Beethoven fans display a subtle (or not so subtle) bit of insecurity about their guy not typically displayed by Mozart supporters. Don't know what accounts for this............................just an observation.........


----------



## KenOC

poconoron said:


> Conclusion: _Certain_ Beethoven fans display a subtle (or not so subtle) bit of insecurity about their guy not typically displayed by Mozart supporters. Don't know what accounts for this............................just an observation.........


Not sure why anybody would denigrate Mozart. I mean, he was what he was...a little guy in a fright wig and satin pants who wrote a lot of music, some of which is quite pretty.

Now Beethoven, he was a thundering old-testament God, whose voice still echoes: "I am Beethoven, composer of composers. Listen to my works, ye Mozartians, and despair!" :lol:

(Sorry, couldn't resist that)


----------



## poconoron

KenOC said:


> Not sure why anybody would denigrate Mozart. I mean, he was what he was...a little guy in a fright wig and satin pants who wrote a lot of music, some of which is quite pretty.
> 
> Now Beethoven, he was a thundering old-testament God, whose voice still echoes: "I am Beethoven, composer of composers. Listen to my works, ye Mozartians, and despair!" :lol:
> 
> (Sorry, couldn't resist that)


Good one................:lol::lol::lol:


----------



## pianississimo

KenOC said:


> Not sure why anybody would denigrate Mozart. I mean, he was what he was...a little guy in a fright wig and satin pants who wrote a lot of music, some of which is quite pretty.
> 
> Now Beethoven, he was a thundering old-testament God, whose voice still echoes: "I am Beethoven, composer of composers. Listen to my works, ye Mozartians, and despair!" :lol:
> 
> (Sorry, couldn't resist that)


Didn't someone once complain to him about the "din" of one of his works? They said they mourned Mozart who could put together a proper tune. Beethoven's alleged response was to "go and dig him up then!!" Nice! I hope it's true!


----------



## herblison

I've been reading the Swafford biography and agree with manyene's comments. It's a hefty volume and has a good deal of new information (for me), as well as very interesting takes on the music. It's also a welcome departure from the typical view of Beethoven a Romantic hero.


----------



## herblison

Unfortunately Glenn Gould was a severe critic of Mozart's music, cruelly saying he died too late. As much as I love Gould's many recordings, his anti-Mozart bias makes me wonder.


----------



## herblison

*The "Greatest" composer*

I vividly remember taking a test in 3rd grade many years ago (early Neolithic era) on which one question was "Who was the greatest composer?". The answer was Beethoven. Why do we even consider such questions.


----------



## SixFootScowl

herblison said:


> I vividly remember taking a test in 3rd grade many years ago (early Neolithic era) on which one question was *"Who was the greatest composer?". The answer was Beethoven.* Why do we even consider such questions.


Well there we have it. The answer was established long ago. There is no need for further discussion.


----------



## EdwardBast

poconoron said:


> In perusing this thread and the Mozart thread, I can't help noticing a distinct difference:
> 
> In the Mozart thread, certain posters can't help themselves in denigrating Mozart to the benefit of Beethoven or some other composer. But here, there seems to be little contrasting Beethoven in a negative light vs. other composers.
> 
> Conclusion: _Certain_ Beethoven fans display a subtle (or not so subtle) bit of insecurity about their guy not typically displayed by Mozart supporters. Don't know what accounts for this............................just an observation.........


The difference might be that TC members are just observing good etiquette. A guestbook is based on the social convention of inscribing brief messages at a wake, funeral, or a wedding reception in a book designed for that purpose. It is simply rude to write anything but positive comments in a guestbook. (e.g., "I'm really sorry Heinrich got cancer and died in agony, but when you think about it, he was kind of a scumbag, so I guess maybe he deserved it after all.") That, I have long assumed, is the thought behind the Composer's Guestbooks forum: a place where anyone with the normal social graces we expect in civil society will realize that negative comments are not appropriate.

In a general forum, by contrast, if one asserts, for example, that a favorite composer achieved something no one else on earth ever achieved, in effect claiming that all others are lesser composers than ones favorite, one should expect dissenting opinions. And, once again, no one in the thread you cite denigrated Mozart. They only stuck pins in over-inflated assertions made by people with thin skin.


----------



## Guest

EdwardBast said:


> *The difference might be that TC members are just observing good etiquette.* A guestbook is based on the social convention of inscribing brief messages at a wake, funeral, or a wedding reception in a book designed for that purpose. It is simply rude to write anything but positive comments in a guestbook. (e.g., "I'm really sorry Heinrich got cancer and died in agony, but when you think about it, he was kind of a scumbag, so I guess maybe he deserved it after all.") That, I have long assumed, is the thought behind the Composer's Guestbooks forum: a place where anyone with the normal social graces we expect in civil society will realize that negative comments are not appropriate.


Maybe. Until you hop on over to the Boulez guestbook or the Cage guestbook or the Schoenberg guestbook, where etiquette tends to elude the dissenters. The amount of disrespect to Boulez not a week after his death demonstrated that there are still posters here with very little concept of common decency.


----------



## EdwardBast

nathanb said:


> Maybe. Until you hop on over to the Boulez guestbook or the Cage guestbook or the Schoenberg guestbook, where etiquette tends to elude the dissenters. The amount of disrespect to Boulez not a week after his death demonstrated that there are still posters here with very little concept of common decency.


I have not checked out those guestbooks and if what you are saying is true, it demonstrates a complete lack of decorum and a rudeness that should be roundly condemned. Had I visited those guestbooks, all personal preferences about music aside, I would have done my best to shame those posters. Did anyone bring up the basic points of etiquette I raised above?

Anyway, I'm sorry to hear it.


----------



## herblison

I read somewhere that Boulez wrote a nasty article after Arnold Schonberg's death entitled "Schonberg est mort."


----------



## EdwardBast

herblison said:


> I read somewhere that Boulez wrote a nasty article after Arnold Schonberg's death entitled "Schonberg est mort."


But he did not write it in the guestbook at his funeral.


----------



## Guest

EdwardBast said:


> But he did not write it in the guestbook at his funeral.


Nor did he write it so soon afterwards.


----------



## hpowders

Sorry there, Ludwig. Except for the Violin Concerto and The Diabelli Variations, I find your music has become irrelevant to these 21st Century ears.

I prefer Shostakovich. Sorry.


----------



## EdwardBast

hpowders said:


> Sorry there, Ludwig. Except for the Violin Concerto and The Diabelli Variations, I find your music has become irrelevant to these 21st Century ears.
> 
> I prefer Shostakovich. Sorry.


Wise guy! ...........


----------



## hpowders

As a footnote to my previous post #396:

I realize you spent a lot of time composing, Ludwig and you might be a bit hyper-sensitive to my preferring Shostakovich's music, but try and put yourself in my 21st Century shoes. It's all about relevancy...not competency.


----------



## hpowders

Yes! Yes! Ludwig! Okay! I will concede the point. The Hammerklavier Sonata too! Enough already! You're giving me a headache and you really need to see a dentist concerning those gums.
Of course!! Yes! Yes! Only to be played on a restoration of a Broadwood Piano! I know!!
Have you forgotten that I am one of the few advocates at TC, insisting on listening to your keyboard sonatas on Broadwood restorations or replicas?


----------



## KenOC

hpowders said:


> I realize you spent a lot of time composing, Ludwig and you might be a bit hyper-sensitive to my preferring Shostakovich's music, but try and put yourself in my 21st Century shoes. It's all about relevancy...not competency.


Was ich scheisse, ist besser als du je gedacht.

--Love and kisses, your friend Ludwig.


----------



## HaydnBearstheClock

KenOC said:


> Was ich scheisse, ist besser als du je gedacht.
> 
> --Love and kisses, your friend Ludwig.


Heheheh, good old Ludwig .


----------



## hpowders

KenOC said:


> Was ich scheisse, ist besser als du je gedacht.
> 
> --Love and kisses, your friend Ludwig.


I will frame this, alongside my collector's pair of Shostakovich eyeglasses.


----------



## KenOC




----------



## DavidA

hpowders said:


> Sorry there, Ludwig. Except for the Violin Concerto and The Diabelli Variations, I *find your music has become irrelevant to these 21st Century ears.
> *
> I prefer Shostakovich. Sorry.


Try investing in a new pair of ears!


----------



## HaydnBearstheClock

DavidA said:


> Try investing in a new pair of ears!


hpowders wasn't being serious .


----------



## hpowders

DavidA said:


> Try investing in a new pair of ears!


You got the wrong dude. It's Beethoven who needed the new ears or at least a large box of Q-Tips.


----------



## Blancrocher

hpowders said:


> You got the wrong dude. It's Beethoven who needed the new ears or at least a large box of Q-Tips.


Sorry for the digression, but true fact: doctors unanimously discourage the use of Q-Tips to clean your ears (and companies don't market them for that). People should look into alternate remedies or risk serious damage.


----------



## hpowders

Blancrocher said:


> Sorry for the digression, but true fact: doctors unanimously discourage the use of Q-Tips to clean your ears (and companies don't market them for that). People should look into alternate remedies or risk serious damage.


Yes. I know. But we are back in 1810: pre-Q Tips. I was employing poetic license. Obviously, I do not have a valid license to do so.


----------



## Weston

I listened to parts of the Hammerklavier, Op. 106 sonata yesterday at work and was struck by how jangling and dissonant the fourth movement is. I had to glance at the iPod screen to make sure it hadn't actually skipped over to a Bartok or Schoenberg work. But I think even those composers are not so jangly, stabbing, chromatic and bizarre as the development of this movement gets. Yet it all seems to have an internal logic.

Let those who claim to dislike dissonance give this a few spins.


----------



## dieter

KenOC said:


> Was ich scheisse, ist besser als du je gedacht.
> 
> --Love and kisses, your friend Ludwig.


Mein gott, swearing in my mother tongue!


----------



## chesapeake bay

Weston said:


> I listened to parts of the Hammerklavier, Op. 106 sonata yesterday at work and was struck by how jangling and dissonant the fourth movement is. I had to glance at the iPod screen to make sure it hadn't actually skipped over to a Bartok or Schoenberg work. But I think even those composers are not so jangly, stabbing, chromatic and bizarre as the development of this movement gets. Yet it all seems to have an internal logic.
> 
> Let those who claim to dislike dissonance give this a few spins.


I come across this in many of Beethoven's works, i.e. surprising dissonance or minimalist sounding phrases or really modern sounding melody, he really was a genius. For instance listen to the second movement of the 3rd piano sonata op 2 no3 not only does it foreshadow the adagio from the Hammerklavier but it also has such a minimalist feel to it. I just picked up Elliso Bolkvadze's cd with this on and she performs it superbly


----------



## KenOC

Ludwig van Beethoven died this day 189 years ago.


----------



## millionrainbows

KenOC said:


> Ludwig van Beethoven died this day 189 years ago.


It happens to the best of us...


----------



## DavidA

hpowders said:


> You got the wrong dude. It's Beethoven who needed the new ears or at least a large box of Q-Tips.


the evidence is that Beethoven did very well without ears!


----------



## PenaColada

KenOC said:


> Ludwig van Beethoven died this day 189 years ago.


Didn't he die in December?


----------



## hpowders

DavidA said:


> the evidence is that Beethoven did very well without ears!


Imagine what he could have composed if he did have "20/20 hearing"!!


----------



## hpowders

PenaColada said:


> Didn't he die in December?


No. He died in bed.


----------



## gellio

Ephemerid said:


> *Symphony No. 6 *has always been a favourite of mine-- the first piece of classical music I *really* just sat down and listened to as a kid.
> 
> The power of the the *ninth symphony *still amazes me.
> 
> *Piano Concerto No. 5 *is wonderful (but I love it most for the second movement)
> 
> I'm a sucker for *Piano Sonata No. 14 *if the 1st movement is actually taken at a slow tempo (I find Pollini's recording of it very good in that respect).
> 
> Most of all, I love Beethoven for the *string quartets*, particularly 12-16. The 15th & 16th are probably my favourites. The Julliard Quartet has an excellent recording of the 16th and is essential listening IMO.
> 
> Beethoven's final string quartets would probably be among my "desert island" collection.


Are you me? Seriously, this is exactly what I would have written.


----------



## gellio

Renaissance said:


> Exactly, you can spend much time trying to put him into a specific category/style, but his music is none of these. He may be a classic in form, but a truly romantic in expression. I "hear" emotions in Beethoven's music that I have never heard anywhere else. It is like I can live in his music, be it popular (like symphonies, concertos) or not. A "normal" human being could have never succeeded in doing something like this.


Well said. I feel Beethoven shows himself through his music - from his sorrow, to his pain, to his joy. The 1st movement of the 5th Symphony can leave me dancing in joy, while the 2nd movement of the 5th Piano Concerto can send me to tears. Such a gamut of emotions in his works.


----------



## Pugg

gellio said:


> Well said. I feel Beethoven shows himself through his music - from his sorrow, to his pain, to his joy. The 1st movement of the 5th Symphony can leave me dancing in joy, while the 2nd movement of the 5th Piano Concerto can send me to tears. Such a gamut of emotions in his works.


Do not forget his 3TH piano concerto and his choral fantasy


----------



## gellio

Anyone else get emotionally affected. I seriously can't handle the 4th movement of the 9th Symphony. It's not even my favorite piece by Beethoven, but I just struggle to not weep whenever I hear it.


----------



## KenOC

An interesting fact I've just come across, in a discussion of Beethoven's familiarity with the music of Bach:

'A more "tangible" proof of Beethovens "active" appreciation of Bach was his own attempt at helping the only surviving daughter of Bach, Regine Susanne Bach, who outlived her days as a spinster in Vienna in poverty and died there in 1809 (Bach died intestate and therefore, his second wife and daughters could only claim 1/3 of his estate). In his very first "deafness letter" to his lifetime friend, Dr. med. Franz Gerhard Wegeler, of June 29, 1801, Beethoven described his economic situation as very good due to his many commissions and explained to Wegeler that he only had to sit down and to compose something if he wanted to come to a friend's help and if he did not have any money on hand. That this comment referred in particular to his attempt to come to the aid of Bach's daughter is confirmed by his correspondence of the same time with his Leipzig publishers.'


----------



## EdwardBast

gellio said:


> Well said. I feel Beethoven shows himself through his music - from his sorrow, to his pain, to his joy. The 1st movement of the 5th Symphony can leave me dancing in joy, while the 2nd movement of the 5th Piano Concerto can send me to tears. Such a gamut of emotions in his works.


Any particular reason you think the emotions expressed by Beethoven's music are those of the composer rather than those of fictional constructions inhabiting the individual works? KenOC posted a great quotation wherein Beethoven says a composer has to put on many humors, or words to that effect. Do you have that handy Ken? It suggests that the emotions are like those a novelist projects into a character rather than ones he necessarily feels himself.


----------



## EdwardBast

KenOC said:


> An interesting fact I've just come across, in a discussion of Beethoven's familiarity with the music of Bach:
> 
> 'A more "tangible" proof of Beethovens "active" appreciation of Bach was his own attempt at helping the only surviving daughter of Bach, Regine Susanne Bach, who outlived her days as a spinster in Vienna in poverty and died there in 1809 (Bach died intestate and therefore, his second wife and daughters could only claim 1/3 of his estate). In his very first "deafness letter" to his lifetime friend, Dr. med. Franz Gerhard Wegeler, of June 29, 1801, Beethoven described his economic situation as very good due to his many commissions and explained to Wegeler that he only had to sit down and to compose something if he wanted to come to a friend's help and if he did not have any money on hand. That this comment referred in particular to his attempt to come to the aid of Bach's daughter is confirmed by his correspondence of the same time with his Leipzig publishers.'


I've been plowing through Swafford's biography and was curious to learn that Beethoven's ability to play the WTC fluently was one of the calling cards that helped secure the respect of several noble patrons in Vienna, where Bach had a secure following among connoisseurs. This suggests that Bach's alleged obscurity before his official revival has been exaggerated.


----------



## hreichgott

EdwardBast said:


> Bach had a secure following among connoisseurs. This suggests that Bach's alleged obscurity before his official revival has been exaggerated.


Being well-known among the connoisseurs and being well-known among the general public are two very different things.


----------



## KenOC

I've understood that JS Bach's clavier music was well known, certain pieces anyway. In Diabelli's notice on publication of Beethoven's Op. 120 variations, for instance, he compares them indirectly with the Goldbergs, obviously expecting people to know what he was talking about.

Bach's organ, other instrumental, and choral works seem to have been largely in eclipse though. It's not clear that Beethoven was familiar with them, although he was a great fan of Handel's choral and vocal work.


----------



## EdwardBast

hreichgott said:


> Being well-known among the connoisseurs and being well-known among the general public are two very different things.


Well yes, but what other church composers from that era were really hot with the general public? Was there even a public for them before the time of the revival? These aren't rhetorical questions. I'm wondering if he wasn't more or less as popular as his species got at that time. And was the notion of composers known for posterity even current then except among connoisseurs? Isn't the significance of the Bach revival more the fact that anyone was thinking about past composers at all rather than the vagaries of Bach's popularity over time?


----------



## CDs

Can anyone comment on Beethoven's opera _Fidelio_? Is it any good? Also why did he only write one opera?
I like his symphonies and piano concertos so I thought I'd check out his opera. Thanks!


----------



## SixFootScowl

CDs said:


> Can anyone comment on Beethoven's opera _Fidelio_? Is it any good? Also why did he only write one opera?
> I like his symphonies and piano concertos so I thought I'd check out his opera. Thanks!


The opera is excellent, but I advise you to introduce yourself to it by DVD with English subtitles and here is an excellent production (my favorite of about 10 Fidelio DVDs I have watched):









Same can be had on CD but was recorded in studio a couple weeks after the live performance.

Beethoven apparently could not find enough worthy subjects for opera. He once commented that he could not set music to the stuff of (maybe more like the trashy stories of) Mozart's operas. I think he was looking to do another opera but never got around to it, either time or lack of a suitable libretto. He did make a couple starts on other operas before Fidelio but dropped them.

For more info, start with this thread, especially posts 13 and 14:


----------



## CDs

Thanks for your response *Florestan*! Very detailed and informative!


----------



## SixFootScowl

CDs said:


> Thanks for your response *Florestan*! Very detailed and informative!


That DVD was my first ever opera on DVD and it got me hooked. Now I have about 3+ dozen operas on DVD.


----------



## Reichstag aus LICHT

CDs said:


> Can anyone comment on Beethoven's opera _Fidelio_? Is it any good? Also why did he only write one opera?


_Fidelio_ is one of the best operas ever written, albeit it's more of a "musical" - speech mixed with sung text or orchestral interludes. The vocal "numbers" are straightforward in style - don't expect anything Wagnerian or Verdian - but it's no less effective for that. On the contrary, you'll struggle to find more moving or uplifting music in the entire operatic repertoire; this, coupled with the affecting simplicity and humanity of the plot, makes _Fidelio_ an absolute gem.

Why didn't Beethoven write another opera? Well, early in his career (during the 1800s) he was considering writing an opera on _Macbeth_, but it never came to fruition.


----------



## Weston

gellio said:


> Anyone else get emotionally affected. I seriously can't handle the 4th movement of the 9th Symphony. It's not even my favorite piece by Beethoven, but I just struggle to not weep whenever I hear it.


I listened to that movement by itself last week at work - certainly a dangerous thing because if interrupted I'd be pretty grouchy. I was doing fairly mundane easy work for a change. I wept openly but quietly myself. Fortunately no one noticed.


----------



## bharbeke

After going through almost the entire Complete Beethoven Edition from DG, here is Beethoven's current box score:

23 excellent (masterpiece level)
82 good (have some particular point or points of interest, would recommend)
133 okay (fine but does not rise above the pack)
8 not to my taste (just what it sounds like)

I'm going to list out the 8 in the bottom category in hopes that someone has a great recording that they can recommend of at least one of them:

Piano Trio No. 3
Cello Sonata No. 4
Mass in C, Op. 86
Christ on the Mount of Olives
Sonatina in C minor for Mandolin and Keyboard
Adagio in E-Flat WoO 43b
Sonatina in C WoO 44a
Variations in D WoO 44b

Additionally, if you know any great performances on the lieder or folksong arrangements, particularly beautiful female voices, I would be interested in knowing about those, too.

Beethoven wrote a ton of great music and definitely deserves to be heard today.


----------



## KenOC

bharbeke said:


> Piano Trio No. 3
> Cello Sonata No. 4


Both are masterpieces in my book. Not even close to being second rate. (Taste, as always, is another matter.) There are many good performances of each. I like the Beaux Arts Trio in the first, and Fournier/Gulda in the second, but almost any will do!

BTW the 3rd Piano Trio was the piece that caused a falling-out between Beethoven and Haydn, who advised against publishing it. It is probably now the most popular of his Opus 1 trio of trios.

I'm not much of a fan of the two religious works that follow. The Mass in C is usually considered highly, the oratorio less so. I'd have to check on the last four works, but they appear to be minor, certainly not among the works he thought worthy of opus numbers.


----------



## bharbeke

Thanks, Ken.

Something else I am looking for is Wellington's Victory with no guns/cannons, just using orchestral percussion to simulate them.


----------



## KenOC

:lol: Can't help you with that one, sorry!


----------



## DavidA

CDs said:


> Can anyone comment on Beethoven's opera _Fidelio_? Is it any good? Also why did he only write one opera?
> I like his symphonies and piano concertos so I thought I'd check out his opera. Thanks!


"It is unique" (Otto Klemperer)

Beethoven wasn't a natural for opera in the same way Mozart was. But listen to a performance of Fidelio and it will take you by the throat. I remember shedding tears through the prisoners chorus. Puts it in the same league as Missa Solemnis - Beethoven's genius made up for any dramatic shortcomings he might have had. So not the greatest opera perhaps but a profoundly moving experience.

He provably didn't write another opera as he had so much trouble with Fidelio and constant rewrites.


----------



## bharbeke

I'd also like to highlight those works of Beethoven I like best and recommend at least one version of each.

Symphony No. 5 (Daniel Barenboim/West-Eastern Divan Orchestra, Rene Leibowitz/Royal Philharmonic Orchestra)
Piano Sonata No. 8 "Pathetique" (Krystian Zimerman)
Piano Sonata No. 9 (Alfred Brendel)
Piano Sonata No. 10 (Bruce Hungerford)
Piano Sonata No. 14 "Moonlight" (Bruce Hungerford)
Piano Sonata No. 15 "Pastorale" (Wilhelm Kempff)
Piano Sonata No. 16 (Daniel Barenboim)
Piano Sonata No. 21 "Waldstein" (Bruce Hungerford)
Piano Sonata No. 23 "Appassionata" (Wilhelm Kempff)
Piano Sonata No. 26 "Les Adieux" (Claudio Arrau)
Piano Concerto No. 1 (Murray Perahia/Georg Solti/London Symphony Orchestra)
Piano Concerto No. 3 (Martha Argerich/?)
Piano Concerto No. 5 "Emperor" (Krystian Zimerman/Leonard Bernstein/Vienna Philharmonic)
Triple Concerto in C (Yo-Yo Ma/Itzhak Perlman/Daniel Barenboim/Berlin Philharmonic)
Zur Namensfeier "Nameday" Op. 115 (Claudio Abbado/Vienna Philharmonic)
Cello Sonata No. 2 (Rostropovich/Richter)
Horn Sonata in F, Op. 17 (Daniel Barenboim/Myron Bloom)
Two Rondos, Op. 51 (Sviatoslav Richter)
Egmont Overture, Op. 84 (Claudio Abbado/Berlin Philharmonic)
Fidelio Overture, Op. 72 (Leonard Bernstein/Vienna Philharmonic)
String Quartet No. 9 "Rasumovsky No. 3" (Amadeus Quartet)
String Quartet No. 3 (Amadeus Quartet)
Quartet No. 1 for Piano, Violin, Viola and Cello in E-Flat WoO 36 (Christoph Eschenbach/Martin Lovett/Norbert Brainin/Peter Schidlof)

Responding to Fidelio, I quite liked the opera. Like Grieg and the piano concerto, he only wrote one, but it was a good one!


----------



## hpowders

Those choices could help someone wishing to get interested in Beethoven, happily busy for a long time.

Valuable help, bharbeke!


----------



## Pugg

bharbeke said:


> Thanks, Ken.
> 
> Something else I am looking for is Wellington's Victory with no guns/cannons, just using orchestral percussion to simulate them.


I am stunned by this, all wants guns and you don't?


----------



## Retrograde Inversion

DavidA said:


> "It is unique" (Otto Klemperer)
> 
> Beethoven wasn't a natural for opera in the same way Mozart was. But listen to a performance of Fidelio and it will take you by the throat. I remember shedding tears through the prisoners chorus. Puts it in the same league as Missa Solemnis - Beethoven's genius made up for any dramatic shortcomings he might have had. So not the greatest opera perhaps but a profoundly moving experience.
> 
> He provably didn't write another opera as he had so much trouble with Fidelio and constant rewrites.


and Klemperer's _Fidelio_ is awesome!! In fact, I can't think of an opera recording I rate more highly: dream cast (Ludwig may have been a mezzo, but she wiped the floor with many a soprano in this role), perfect tempi, everything.


----------



## SixFootScowl

Retrograde Inversion said:


> and Klemperer's _Fidelio_ is awesome!! In fact, I can't think of an opera recording I rate more highly: dream cast (Ludwig may have been a mezzo, but she wiped the floor with many a soprano in this role), perfect tempi, everything.


That's a good one, but I'll take the Bernstein Fidelio with Gundula Janowitz, especially the live sound track from the DVD is great.


----------



## hpowders

I agree with any posters here who love the Klemperer Fidelio. Just terrific.

Another great one is the Toscanini. The finale is an absolute whirlwind of feverish inspiration!


----------



## Pugg

Florestan said:


> That's a good one, but I'll take the Bernstein Fidelio with Gundula Janowitz, especially the live sound track from the DVD is great.


Wonderful, the DVD as well as the CD, after all those years still going strong.


----------



## bharbeke

Pugg said:


> I am stunned by this, all wants guns and you don't?


I am fairly liberal in what I consider allowable percussion in an orchestra, but actual gunfire or cannon fire is over the line for me. The musical parts of WV are wonderful, and I would love to be able to hear the piece with just musical instruments.


----------



## hpowders

bharbeke said:


> I am fairly liberal in what I consider allowable percussion in an orchestra, but *actual gunfire* or cannon fire *is over the line for me.* The musical parts of WV are wonderful, and I would love to be able to hear the piece with just musical instruments.


Don't ever move to Chicago.


----------



## SixFootScowl

hpowders said:


> Don't ever move to Chicago.


Probably don't want to live in Detroit either. :lol:


----------



## hpowders

Florestan said:


> Probably don't want to live in Detroit either. :lol:


Or NYC, St. Louis, Baltimore or LA either.


----------



## Pugg

bharbeke said:


> I am fairly liberal in what I consider allowable percussion in an orchestra, but actual gunfire or cannon fire is over the line for me. The musical parts of WV are wonderful, and I would love to be able to hear the piece with just musical instruments.


Okay, I do understand, thanks for clearing this up.


----------



## Solistrum

So let me say it before anyone since it is today or tommorow. Happy birthday Maestro.


----------



## Bettina

Solistrum said:


> So let me say it before anyone since it is today or tommorow. Happy birthday Maestro.


Yes!! Happy birthday to my favorite composer!

Beethoven's music speaks powerfully to me on an intellectual, emotional, and spiritual level. There are many composers whose works I enjoy, but Beethoven's leading role in my musical life remains unchallenged.


----------



## Retrograde Inversion

I wonder if Beethoven got both Christmas presents and birthday presents? (Then again, Isaac Newton must have been the really unfortunate one in that regard.)


----------



## Pugg

Solistrum said:


> So let me say it before anyone since it is today or tommorow. Happy birthday Maestro.


He's in the birthday thread already .


----------



## DavidA

hpowders said:


> I agree with any posters here who love the Klemperer Fidelio. Just terrific.
> 
> Another great one is the Toscanini. The finale is an absolute whirlwind of feverish inspiration!


My personal preference is Karajan with Vickers and Denersch. White hot.


----------



## Solistrum

Pugg said:


> He's in the birthday thread already .


Oh.. 



DavidA said:


> My personal preference is Karajan with Vickers and Denersch. White hot.


Any love for Furtwangler's?


----------



## DavidA

Solistrum said:


> Oh..
> 
> Any love for Furtwangler's?


I did have it but the transfer was awful.


----------



## SixFootScowl

Solistrum said:


> Oh..
> 
> Any love for Furtwangler's?


I got rid of my Furtwangler war time set. The sound quality was not good.

Now Toscanini, there is a great cycle if you get the later one from around 1950. He is fast tempo, perhaps rivalling Zinman.


----------



## hpowders

Florestan said:


> I got rid of my Furtwangler war time set. The sound quality was not good.
> 
> Now Toscanini, there is a great cycle if you get the later one from around 1950. He is fast tempo, perhaps rivalling Zinman.


If you want to hear Toscanini in his prime, before things sped up, you must hear his 1939 NBC Beethoven cycle.

One of the glories of recorded music and I would say, mandatory listening for one who professes to love Beethoven.


----------



## Reichstag aus LICHT

KenOC said:


> Both [Piano Trio No 3; Cello Sonata No 4] are masterpieces in my book. Not even close to being second rate.


Agreed on the trio; it is certainly masterpiece material, and quite daring in its day. The Beaux Arts recording is great, as you say, but my personal favourite is that by the Castle Trio on "original" instruments. I'm not sure if it's still readily available, but it's well worth getting if it is, as is the rest of the Castle Trio Beethoven set.

PS, Ken: I don't doubt your judgment on the Cello Sonata, it's just that I'm not too familiar with it. I'll give it a spin soon.


----------



## SixFootScowl

hpowders said:


> If you want to hear Toscanini in his prime, before things sped up, you must hear his 1939 NBC Beethoven cycle.
> 
> One of the glories of recorded music and I would say, mandatory listening for one who professes to love Beethoven.


Perhaps, but the sound quality has got to be somewhat of a compromise for the 1939 cycle. And I do like my Beethoven symphonies at faster tempos such as from Monteux to Zinman. I got rid of the slow Walter and Klemperer cycles.


----------



## hpowders

Florestan said:


> Perhaps, but the sound quality has got to be somewhat of a compromise for the 1939 cycle. And I do like my Beethoven symphonies at faster tempos such as from Monteux to Zinman. I got rid of the slow Walter and Klemperer cycles.


The 1939 Toscanini set comes with a letter attesting Beethoven's approval. He told me to tell you, "If you think the sound was bad in 1939, can you imagine how dreadful those first 78's of my symphonies sounded in 1817? One had to spin them by hand, since the motors for spinning them weren't invented yet."


----------



## Pugg

Solistrum said:


> Oh..


Never mind, that's why the


----------



## cimirro

an orchestral Beethoven not in the orchestra:




All the best
Artur Cimirro
P.S.: A wonderful 2017 for all!!!!!


----------



## Bettina

cimirro said:


> an orchestral Beethoven not in the orchestra:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> All the best
> Artur Cimirro
> P.S.: A wonderful 2017 for all!!!!!


Thanks for posting this. Very nice transcription and performance! Did you transcribe it yourself?


----------



## cimirro

Bettina said:


> Thanks for posting this. Very nice transcription and performance! Did you transcribe it yourself?


Thank you for your words Bettina, 
Yes, I have made several transcriptions, you can see a list on my webpage on this link (just below the list of my compositions)
http://www.arturcimirro.com.br/en_opus.htm
There are some transcriptions for 2 hands and some for the left hand alone too 
All the best


----------



## gellio

DavidA said:


> "It is unique" (Otto Klemperer)
> 
> Beethoven wasn't a natural for opera in the same way Mozart was. But listen to a performance of Fidelio and it will take you by the throat. I remember shedding tears through the prisoners chorus. Puts it in the same league as Missa Solemnis - Beethoven's genius made up for any dramatic shortcomings he might have had. So not the greatest opera perhaps but a profoundly moving experience.
> 
> He provably didn't write another opera as he had so much trouble with Fidelio and constant rewrites.


Spot on. I love Fidelio. Bernstein's recording is amazing. So riveting, powerful and beautiful. Beethoven is my guy.


----------



## hpowders

Yes. The Klemperer set with Vickers is superb, but one must also hear Toscanini conduct this music, even if the sound is not so good.

An overwhelming experience!


----------



## SixFootScowl

gellio said:


> Spot on. I love Fidelio. Bernstein's recording is amazing. So riveting, powerful and beautiful. Beethoven is my guy.


And even better than the Bernstein Fidelio recording is the Bernstein Fidelio DVD soundtrack--live performance makes a big difference.


----------



## hpowders

Anyone hear the 32 keyboard sonatas performed by Ronald Brautigam on fortepiano.

I found it to be excellent.


----------



## Pugg

Florestan said:


> And even better than the Bernstein Fidelio recording is the Bernstein Fidelio DVD soundtrack--live performance makes a big difference.


Still the best available.


----------



## chill782002

hpowders said:


> Anyone hear the 32 keyboard sonatas performed by Ronald Brautigam on fortepiano.
> 
> I found it to be excellent.


I enjoyed that cycle. However, I think that Paul Badura-Skoda's fortepiano recordings of the Beethoven keyboard sonatas are even better.  On modern piano, can't decide between Schnabel and Brendel.


----------



## EdwardBast

hpowders said:


> Anyone hear the 32 keyboard sonatas performed by Ronald Brautigam on fortepiano.
> 
> I found it to be excellent.


Given his lifelong quest for more powerful pianos and his writing works with them in mind, I imagine Beethoven would be bemused by historically informed performances. He might have been pounding his head against a wall if he knew people with modern pianos would still be playing them on fortepiano.


----------



## Chronochromie

EdwardBast said:


> Given his lifelong quest for more powerful pianos and his writing works with them in mind, I imagine Beethoven would be bemused by historically informed performances. He might have been pounding his head against a wall if he knew people with modern pianos would still be playing them on fortepiano.


Then again, things like the opening movement of the "Moonlight" can't be played like Beethoven instructed on a modern piano.


----------



## Animal the Drummer

Nonetheless I'd lay a sizeable sum that he'd like what the best performances can make of it on a modern piano.


----------



## hpowders

EdwardBast said:


> Given his lifelong quest for more powerful pianos and his writing works with them in mind, I imagine Beethoven would be bemused by historically informed performances. He might have been pounding his head against a wall if he knew people with modern pianos would still be playing them on fortepiano.


Pure conjecture on your part.


----------



## Vaneyes

Animal the Drummer said:


> Nonetheless I'd lay a sizeable sum that he'd like what the best performances can make of it on a modern piano.


I agree. For over a hundred years fortepiano advanced. LvB enjoyed some of its latest advances, not too far from piano as we generally know it.

"The range of the fortepiano was about four octaves at the time of its invention and gradually increased. Mozart (1756-1791) wrote his piano music for instruments of about five octaves. The piano works of Beethoven (1770-1827) reflect a gradually expanding range; his last piano compositions are for an instrument of about six octaves. (The range of most modern pianos, attained in the 19th century, is 7⅓ octaves.)" - Wikipedia


----------



## EdwardBast

hpowders said:


> Pure conjecture on your part.


Yes, of course (that's why I wrote "I imagine"). Based on the fact he was always bitching about the pianos he was using.


----------



## KenOC

EdwardBast said:


> Yes, of course (that's why I wrote "I imagine"). Based on the fact he was always bitching about the pianos he was using.


After his Op. 111 sonata, LvB said he would write no more for the piano, pronouncing it "an unsatisfactory instrument." Of course he soon published his Diabelli Variations and a couple of nice sets of bagatelles... :lol:


----------



## hpowders

EdwardBast said:


> Yes, of course (that's why I wrote "I imagine"). Based on the fact he was always bitching about the pianos he was using.


If it wasn't pianos, it would be his brother, his nephew, his publisher or his landlady. He just liked to complain.

I just wish I had a You Tube video of him coming to an early morning piano lesson with one of his young princesses, dressed in his pajamas with nightcap on.


----------



## EdwardBast

hpowders said:


> If it wasn't pianos, it would be his brother, his nephew, his publisher or his landlady. He just liked to complain.
> 
> I just wish I had a You Tube video of him coming to an early morning piano lesson with one of his young princesses, dressed in his pajamas with nightcap on.


Haah! Yes, he was one grumpy composer. About pianos, however, he often complained with a purpose, in order to get piano makers (Erard, Streicher, Broadwood) to make specific changes. How many of these innovations he could actually hear is anyone's guess.


----------



## hpowders

EdwardBast said:


> Haah! Yes, he was one grumpy composer. About pianos, however, he often complained with a purpose, in order to get piano makers (Erard, Streicher, Broadwood) to make specific changes. How many of these innovations he could actually hear is anyone's guess.


Well, it wouldn't be a stretch to predict that Beethoven would have been in love with a Steinway Model D concert grand, assuming he could hear it-just the layout and the mechanism would have most likely driven him to ecstasy and he would have deserved it.

A real tragedy-that we have all these terrific instruments and Mozart, Haydn and Beethoven didn't.


----------



## Poodle

Does talkclassic recommend piano concerto box? . thank .


----------



## Pugg

Poodle said:


> Does talkclassic recommend piano concerto box? . thank .


Just posted a answer in current listening.


----------



## Jacred

Well, Beethoven did push the limits of the pianos he used.


----------



## pcnog11

If Beethoven did not push the envelope, we would not have the concert grand we have today. It is a matter of supply and demand.


----------



## hpowders

Yeah, and it surely isn't fair that Beethoven did all the heavy work and never got to experience the inevitable evolution of his labors, a Steinway Concert Grand Model D.


----------



## Merl

I'm currently really enjoying Peter Maag's LvB symphony cycle. Got it for Xmas and it's excellent. Just saying.


----------



## Vaneyes

Poodle said:


> Does talkclassic recommend piano concerto box? . thank .


Older, Fleisher/Cleveland O./Szell (Sony). Newer, Lewis/BBC SO/Belohlavek (harmonia mundi).:tiphat:


----------



## hpowders

I would add Brendel/Chicago/Levine as a fine Beethoven Piano Concerto set.


----------



## Pugg

Vaneyes said:


> Older, Fleisher/Cleveland O./Szell (Sony). Newer, Lewis/BBC SO/Belohlavek (harmonia mundi).:tiphat:


Give him a answer, never got any answer, hope this will help.


----------



## Guest

post deleted,wrong thread.


----------



## Daverk

Just joined the forum, like the pieces mentioned. Also quite like the early piano concertos


----------



## Pugg

Daverk said:


> Just joined the forum, like the pieces mentioned. Also quite like the early piano concertos


Hello Daverk, a very warm welcome to TalkClassical, have a great time.


----------



## Jacred

Listening to the Eroica Symphony now. His music will speak to humanity forever. RIP.


----------



## Bettina

Beethoven died on this day 190 years ago. But his music is immortal.


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## hpowders

Bettina said:


> Beethoven died on this day 190 years ago. But his music is immortal.


Yes. The same day Pierre Boulez and yours truly were born!!


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## Pugg

Bettina said:


> Beethoven died on this day 190 years ago. But his music is immortal.


Will living one the next 200 years.


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## hpowders

Bettina said:


> Beethoven died on this day 190 years ago. But his music is immortal.


Yes. Beethoven's music will never die.


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## Antiquarian

Listening to an old favourite of mine, the "Harp" quartet, performed by the Quartetto Italiano. (Philips). Very lush!


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## AfterHours

It's hard to imagine where music might be had Beethoven never existed.

My Top 25 Beethoven works:

1. Symphony No. 9 in D Minor "Choral" (1824) 
2. String Quartet No. 15 in A Minor (1825) 
3. String Quartet No. 14 in C-sharp Minor (1826) 
4. Symphony No. 5 in C Minor (1808) 
5. Piano Sonata No. 32 in C Minor (1822) 
6. Symphony No. 3 in E-flat Major "Eroica" (1804) 
7. Symphony No. 6 in F Major "Pastoral" (1808) 
8. Piano Sonata No. 23 in F Minor "Appassionata" (1805) 
9. Symphony No. 7 in A Major (1812) 
10. Piano Sonata No. 30 in E Major (1820) 
11. Piano Sonata No. 29 in B-flat Major "Hammerklavier" (1818) 
12. Violin Concerto in D Major (1806) 
13. Piano Trio No. 7 in B-flat Major "Archduke" (1811) 
14. String Quartet No. 13 in B-flat Major (Original Composition with Grosse Fugue) (1825) 
15. Symphony No. 8 in F Major (1812) 
16. String Quartet No. 12 in E flat major (1825) 
17. Piano Concerto No. 5 in E-flat Major "Emperor" (1811) 
18. Piano Concerto No. 4 in G Major (1806) 
19. Piano Trio in D major "Ghost" (1809) 
20. Diabelli Variations (1823) 
21. Violin Sonata No. 9 in A Major "Kreutzer" (1803) 
22. Piano Sonata No. 8 in C Minor "Pathetique" - Ludwig van Beethoven (1798) 
23. Piano Sonata No. 31 in A-flat Major (1821) 
24. Piano Sonata No. 21 in C Major "Waldstein" (1804) 
25. Piano Sonata No. 14 in C-sharp Minor "Quasi una fantasia" (aka, "Moonlight") (1801) 

His best compositions are so amazing and sustain such a consistently high level that this would make a very serviceable "Overall" Top 25 of all time as well


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## Bettina

AfterHours, I like your idea of listing your 25 favorite Beethoven works. I'm going to give it a try, although it will be difficult for me to rank his works...basically all of them are tied for my #1 position!! Anyway, here's my list:

1. Piano Concerto No. 5, "Emperor"
2. Piano Sonata Op. 111
3. String Quartet No. 14
4. Symphony No. 5
5. String Quartet No. 15
6. Piano Concerto No. 4
7. Violin Concerto
8. Violin Sonata Op. 47, "Kreutzer"
9. Piano Trio Op. 97, "Archduke"
10. Piano Sonata Op. 53, "Waldstein"
11. Piano Sonata Op. 109
12. String Quartet No. 13
13. Piano Sonata Op. 106
14. Symphony No. 9 
15. Piano Sonata Op. 57, "Appassionata"
16. Symphony No. 6
17. Piano Trio Op. 70 No. 1, "Ghost"
18. Symphony No. 3, "Eroica"
19. Symphony No. 7
20. Piano Sonata Op. 31 No. 2, "Tempest"
21. Symphony No. 4
22. Symphony No. 8
23. Piano Sonata Op. 101
24. Piano Sonata Op. 90
25. Piano Concerto No. 3


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## SixFootScowl

My top Beethoven Works:

Fidelio
The Nine Symphonies
Missa Solemnis
Choral Fantasy
Egmont
Violin Concerto
32 Piano Sonatas


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## Pugg

Like being in a foster home and you have to pick a foster child.
( Secretly, I can't even decide between piano concertos 3 and 5)


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## AfterHours

Florestan said:


> My top Beethoven Works:
> 
> Fidelio
> The Nine Symphonies
> Missa Solemnis
> Choral Fantasy
> Egmont
> Violin Concerto
> 32 Piano Sonatas


Whoops, how could I forget Fidelio and Missa Solemnis?

Probably just because I haven't listened to them in so long -- but fwiw they would probably both be in my Top 10.


----------



## AfterHours

Bettina said:


> AfterHours, I like your idea of listing your 25 favorite Beethoven works. I'm going to give it a try, although it will be difficult for me to rank his works...basically all of them are tied for my #1 position!! Anyway, here's my list:
> 
> 1. Piano Concerto No. 5, "Emperor"
> 2. Piano Sonata Op. 111
> 3. String Quartet No. 14
> 4. Symphony No. 5
> 5. String Quartet No. 15
> 6. Piano Concerto No. 4
> 7. Violin Concerto
> 8. Violin Sonata Op. 47, "Kreutzer"
> 9. Piano Trio Op. 97, "Archduke"
> 10. Piano Sonata Op. 53, "Waldstein"
> 11. Piano Sonata Op. 109
> 12. String Quartet No. 13
> 13. Piano Sonata Op. 106
> 14. Symphony No. 9
> 15. Piano Sonata Op. 57, "Appassionata"
> 16. Symphony No. 6
> 17. Piano Trio Op. 70 No. 1, "Ghost"
> 18. Symphony No. 3, "Eroica"
> 19. Symphony No. 7
> 20. Piano Sonata Op. 31 No. 2, "Tempest"
> 21. Symphony No. 4
> 22. Symphony No. 8
> 23. Piano Sonata Op. 101
> 24. Piano Sonata Op. 90
> 25. Piano Concerto No. 3


Great list, couldn't have said it better myself!


----------



## Art Rock

I'll do a top 10, because ranking after that becomes too diffuse for me.

1. Symphony 6
2. Violin concerto
3. String quartet 14
4. Symphony 5
5. String quartet 15
6. Piano concerto 3
7. Symphony 3
8. Piano Sonata "Appassionata"
9. String quartet 13
10. Piano concerto 4

The other 15 would include symphonies 7 and 4, piano concerto 5, some more string quartets, one or two violin sonatas, the septet, and a rich helping of piano sonatas.


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## hpowders

My latest thoughts:

1. Violin Concerto

2. Missa Solemnis

3. Diabelli Variations

4. Symphony No. 6

5. Hammerklavier Sonata

6. Piano Sonata No. 32

7. String Quartet in A minor

8. Piano Concerto No. 4


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## Pugg

Florestan said:


> My top Beethoven Works:
> 
> Fidelio
> The Nine Symphonies
> Missa Solemnis
> Choral Fantasy
> Egmont
> Violin Concerto
> 32 Piano Sonatas


Those ( in red now) would be high in my top 10


----------



## Tchaikov6

Hmmm... I'll give my Top 10 Beethoven a go (In no particular order).

1. Symphony No. 7

2. Symphony No. 6

3. Appassionata Sonata

4. Waldstein Sonata

5. Piano Concerto No. 4

6. String Quartet No. 13

7. Hammerklavier Sonata

8. Symphony No. 8

9. Symphony No 5

10. Spring Sonata

But I love everything by Beethoven! (Well, almost everything).


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## Jacred

In no particular order:

Symphonies 3, 5, 7, 9
Piano Sonatas 8, 14, 17, 23, 29-32
Violin Sonatas 5, 9
String Quartets 13-15
Piano Concerti 3-5
Egmont Overture
Fidelio
Piano Trios 5, 7

Eh... gonna leave the 25th spot blank (for everything else... :devil


----------



## Janspe

I was reading about the Violin Concerto in Wikipedia, and came across this passage:



Wikipédia (French) said:


> Clement accepta de commander et créer le concerto pour violon à condition que le rondo final soit sur un thème qu'il avait composé. Ainsi, le dansant thème de refrain, en forme de carillon, est-il de la main de Clement, Beethoven se contentant de l'harmoniser, et de composer tout le reste.


Now my French isn't great, but basically it says that the violinist who gave the premiere would only agree to do it if Beethoven used a theme by him in the last movement, and that's what happened apparently. I've never heard this story before, and I'd be interested to know more. No reference was given and the story wasn't mentioned in any other versions of the page that I can read - my native Finnish + English, German and Swedish. Could someone here confirm this?


----------



## Animal the Drummer

Your French may not be great but you've read that quite correctly. And no, I've never heard that story either. But then it is Wiki and one can never be sure how trustworthy that is.


----------



## EdwardBast

Janspe said:


> I was reading about the Violin Concerto in Wikipedia, and came across this passage:
> 
> Now my French isn't great, but basically it says that the violinist who gave the premiere would only agree to do it if Beethoven used a theme by him in the last movement, and that's what happened apparently. I've never heard this story before, and I'd be interested to know more. No reference was given and the story wasn't mentioned in any other versions of the page that I can read - my native Finnish + English, German and Swedish. Could someone here confirm this?


Jan Swafford's biography doesn't support the quotation you included. He describes the story about Clement writing the finale theme as an "old Viennese legend," although one he thinks is plausible. But there is no mention of Clement insisting that he be allowed to write a theme. Swafford suggests Beethoven was writing the concerto so quickly that he might have taken a theme by Clement for the finale for expediency's sake.


----------



## SixFootScowl

Janspe said:


> I was reading about the Violin Concerto in Wikipedia, and came across this passage:
> 
> Now my French isn't great, but basically it says that the violinist who gave the premiere would only agree to do it if Beethoven used a theme by him in the last movement, and that's what happened apparently. I've never heard this story before, and I'd be interested to know more. No reference was given and the story wasn't mentioned in any other versions of the page that I can read - my native Finnish + English, German and Swedish. Could someone here confirm this?


Kind of think that Ludwig would have told the violinist where to stick the violin and would go find someone else to premiere his concerto.


----------



## danj

Florestan said:


> Kind of think that Ludwig would have told the violinist where to stick the violin and would go find someone else to premiere his concerto.


I don't think so. Beethoven was as timid as they came. He was an emotional figure, no doubt and his music showed who he was. Don't think many would be that abrasive...

He would find another way to get his message across.


----------



## Bettina

danj said:


> I don't think so.* Beethoven was as timid as they came.* He was an emotional figure, no doubt and his music showed who he was. Don't think many would be that abrasive...
> 
> He would find another way to get his message across.


That's the first time I've ever seen anyone refer to Beethoven as timid!! :lol: I'm not sure what you mean. I agree that he had a lot of emotional swings, but they generally involved temper tantrums rather than shyness. His letters (and reports from his friends) show that he had quite a temper and he wasn't hesitant about speaking his mind. And of course there's nothing timid about his music.


----------



## danj

Bettina said:


> That's the first time I've ever seen anyone refer to Beethoven as timid!! :lol: I'm not sure what you mean. I agree that he had a lot of emotional swings, but they generally involved temper tantrums rather than shyness. His letters (and reports from his friends) show that he had quite a temper and he wasn't hesitant about speaking his mind. And of course there's nothing timid about his music.


You know what? After looking back, I'm confusing the word timid with passion which isn't neccesarily to come with temper tantrums. He was passionate but I made poor choice of words here.


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## Bettina

danj said:


> You know what? After looking back, I'm confusing the word timid with passion which isn't neccesarily to come with temper tantrums. He was passionate but I made poor choice of words here.


Thanks for clarifying what you meant. I totally agree with you about Beethoven's passionate temperament. His music is filled with so many strong emotions and contrasting impulses.


----------



## danj

Bettina said:


> Thanks for clarifying what you meant. I totally agree with you about Beethoven's passionate temperament. His music is filled with so many strong emotions and contrasting impulses.


No problem. One of my favorite passionate pieces is his String Quartert No. 15 in A Minor, Op. 132, (3rd movement).






Very moving...


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## Jacred

^Yes, agreed. And don't forget the Cavatina in String Quartet No. 13, Op. 130 (5th movement).


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## danj

Beethoven's Symphony No 7 (2nd movement) might be the most depressing piece of his in terms of "why am I alive."

Maybe I'm just going through a rut... but dang.


----------



## Bettina

danj said:


> Beethoven's Symphony No 7 (2nd movement) might be the most depressing piece of his in terms of "why am I alive."
> 
> Maybe I'm just going through a rut... but dang.


Yes, but then everything becomes joyful again in the third and fourth movements. That's how things usually work in Beethoven's music - sad sections are soon followed by triumphant affirmations of life. In fact, in 1810 Beethoven wrote a song based on Schiller's line "the pain is brief, and the joy is eternal." I think that describes the mood of his music perfectly!


----------



## danj

Bettina said:


> Yes, but then everything becomes joyful again in the third and fourth movements. That's how things usually work in Beethoven's music - sad sections are soon followed by triumphant affirmations of life. In fact, in 1810 Beethoven wrote a song based on Schiller's line "the pain is brief, and the joy is eternal." I think that describes the mood of his music perfectly!


Now that I think about it -- you are quite right about that. That's a good line and a good way to describe the music.

Can you suggest any good Beethoven books?


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## Bettina

danj said:


> Now that I think about it -- you are quite right about that. That's a good line and a good way to describe the music.
> 
> Can you suggest any good Beethoven books?


Two of my favorites are:

Lewis Lockwood - Beethoven: The Music and the Life

William Kinderman - Beethoven

Both of these books are written by distinguished Beethoven scholars. The writing style is eloquent, but accessible, and they do a great job bringing together his musical works and his biography.


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## SixFootScowl

danj said:


> Beethoven's Symphony No 7 (2nd movement) might be the most depressing piece of his in terms of "why am I alive."
> 
> Maybe I'm just going through a rut... but dang.


For some reason, that movement always reminds me of the funeral march in Beethoven's 3rd Symphony.


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## danj

Have I mentioned lately how much I love Choral Fantasy Op. 80 by Beethoven? Played in Berlin by Evgeny Kissin and Berliner Philharmoniker for 1991 New Year's Concert.

Absolute chills. Every time.


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## childed

Great Beethoven viewed music as a superior power to any philosophy or science.
He dressed as a punk of his age and acted accordingly, he dismissed maths, in fact, couldn't even multiply.
200 years later Phillips and Sony came up with a CD format that was 74 minutes long. 
It could’ve been a quality 60 minutes instead but then Beethoven’s 9th Symphony wouldn’t have fit in )))


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## ST4

danj said:


> Beethoven's Symphony No 7 (2nd movement) might be the most depressing piece of his in terms of "why am I alive."
> 
> Maybe I'm just going through a rut... but dang.


Well for me it's the only really well known Beethoven movement that I not only like but really love, so there's that (for me at least)


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## Pugg

childed said:


> Great Beethoven viewed music as a superior power to any philosophy or science.
> He dressed as a punk of his age and acted accordingly, he dismissed maths, in fact, couldn't even multiply.
> 200 years later Phillips and Sony came up with a CD format that was 74 minutes long.
> It could've been a quality 60 minutes instead but then Beethoven's 9th Symphony wouldn't have fit in )))


I have a Beethoven CD with Radu Lupu playing concerto no 5, lasting only about 40 minutes.


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## Larkenfield

The symphonies by Bruno Walter and the CSO and the piano sonatas by Claudio Arrau have been personal favorites for years. But then, I'm an adherent of the three B's. :tiphat:


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## SixFootScowl

Larkenfield said:


> The symphonies by Bruno Walter and the CSO and the piano sonatas by Claudio Arrau have been personal favorites for years. But then, I'm an adherent of the three B's. :tiphat:


My mother had a friend who thought the three Bs were beer, bowling, and bingo! :lol:

And I remember a guy I worked with who thought the three Bs were beer, broads, and barbecue! :lol:

Hmmm, a common thread being beer and I think Bach and Beethoven both loved their beer, but what about Brahms?

But what I don't understand is how Brahms got up there with Bach and Beethoven. I think Mendelssohn is every bit as great as Brahms. But then he had the misfortune of not having a last name beginning with B or we might have had the four Bs.


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## wkasimer

> Hmmm, a common thread being beer and I think Bach and Beethoven both loved their beer, but what about Brahms?


I'm pretty sure that Brahms liked his beer, too - and he played piano in brothels when he was a child.


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## hpowders

Oh sorry! I thought this was the Beethoven thread. I musta got lost.


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## SixFootScowl

hpowders said:


> Oh sorry! I thought this was the Beethoven thread. I musta got lost.


Well being that it started in 2008, this thread is subject to abuse. It is not the Beethoven thread, but one of perhaps a hundred Beethoven threads.


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## KenOC

Florestan said:


> Well being that it started in 2008, this thread is subject to abuse. It is not the Beethoven thread, but one of perhaps a hundred Beethoven threads.


However it's the only Beethoven thread in Composer Guestbooks. We're supposed to behave respectfully, remove our hats, speak in quiet voices, and gaze up at those pictures of rivers flowing peacefully beneath sunset skies into the endless ocean.

The composer's pornography collection will be on view in the annex after 3:00 PM.


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## hpowders

Florestan said:


> Well being that it started in 2008, this thread is subject to abuse. It is not the Beethoven thread, but one of perhaps a hundred Beethoven threads.


Beethoven woulda been P.O.'d!!


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## SixFootScowl

I do apologize to Ken, Hpowders, and Louie. 

I always come in to things by clicking "New Posts" and, in my hurry, rarely look at what forum I am in.


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## hpowders

Florestan said:


> I do apologize to Ken, Hpowders, and Louie.
> 
> I always come in to things by clicking "New Posts" and, in my hurry, rarely look at what forum I am in.


I've done it too! No big deal. Thanks!


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## danj

Occasional reminder. 

Beethoven's Choral Fantasy Op. 80 is an amazing piece.

It hasn't got lost on me and the finale is always breathtaking.

That is all.


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## Pugg

danj said:


> Occasional reminder.
> 
> Beethoven's Choral Fantasy Op. 80 is an amazing piece.
> 
> It hasn't got lost on me and the finale is always breathtaking.
> 
> That is all.







I'll give you one off the best.


----------



## SixFootScowl

danj said:


> Occasional reminder.
> 
> Beethoven's Choral Fantasy Op. 80 is an amazing piece.
> 
> It hasn't got lost on me and the finale is always breathtaking.
> 
> That is all.


Love the Choral Fantasy. My favorite recording is this one with the London Philharmonic Orchestra, Bernard Haitink conducting and Alfred Brendel playing the piano:





This one is available on CD too:


----------



## Bettina

Question for my fellow Beethoven-lovers: is the Creatures of Prometheus ballet available on DVD? Not just the concert suite, but the actual ballet performance? I can't seem to find it anywhere!


----------



## KenOC

The Choral Fantasia was premiered at a mammoth concert in the cold winter of 1808. I seem to remember that Beethoven was ejected from rehearsals because he was overexcited and knocked over music as well as some boys setting up for the performance. However he played the piano part in the actual performance and, aside from a bad boo-boo and a restart, things went pretty well.

The fifth and sixth Symphonies and the 4th Piano Concerto, plus another piece I can't remember were premiered. Those that attended froze their buns off. As somebody wrote, there *can* be too much of a good thing.


----------



## Bettina

KenOC said:


> The Choral Fantasia was premiered at a mammoth concert in the cold winter of 1808. I seem to remember that Beethoven was ejected from rehearsals because he was overexcited and knocked over music as well as some boys setting up for the performance. However he played the piano part in the actual performance and, aside from a bad boo-boo and a restart, things went pretty well.
> 
> The fifth and sixth Symphonies and the 4th Piano Concerto, plus another piece I can't remember were premiered. Those that attended froze their buns off. As somebody wrote, there *can* be too much of a good thing.


This story encapsulates everything that I love about Beethoven - he was impulsive, excessively ambitious, brilliant, impractical, clumsy...:lol:


----------



## SixFootScowl

Bettina said:


> This story encapsulates everything that I love about Beethoven - he was impulsive, excessively ambitious, brilliant, impractical, clumsy...:lol:


I know people who have three of those five qualities (impulsive, impractical, and clumsy) and nobody loves them for it, so I think the excessively ambitious and brilliant parts must carry more weight, if not in fact, excuse the lesser three qualities.


----------



## danj

Sorry to dissapoint. My favorite version is Claudio Abbado's 1991 Berlin New Year's Eve concert with Evgeny Kissin and co.


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## SixFootScowl

danj said:


> Sorry to dissapoint. My favorite version is Claudio Abbado's 1991 Berlin New Year's Eve concert with Evgeny Kissin and co.


No disappointment here. I like it. Had not heard it before. In fact, like it so much I just bought a copy. The selling feature was it also includes Egmont (entire work, not just overture) and has Cheryl Studer (major selling point). Could not resist buying it with all that included. Choral Fantasy and Egmont are two of my favorite Beethoven works. Thanks for posting it.

can listen to clips here: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00000E53B/


----------



## Vaneyes

Bettina said:


> Question for my fellow Beethoven-lovers: is the Creatures of Prometheus ballet available on DVD? Not just the concert suite, but the actual ballet performance? I can't seem to find it anywhere!


LvB scenario for the ballet was lost.

Re modern times, two choreographies are mentioned. Frederick Ashton's resulted in two 1970 Royal Ballet performances, Bonn and London. Fred Howald's at Frankfurt Opera, 1979.

There is mention of a brief video extract from the 1970 Bonn performance. Performances are rare, and there are no tapes or discs, commercial or otherwise. :tiphat:

Related:

http://www.frederickashton.org.uk/prometheus.html

https://www.naxos.com/mainsite/blur...iletype=About this Recording&language=English

https://www.cantonsymphony.org/638

http://lvbandmore.blogspot.ca/2010/09/927-beethovens-creatures-ballet.html


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## ST4

Creatures of Prometheus is a Beethoven orchestra work that really surprised me when I first heard it! 

It's quite a lively work and seemingly removed (stylistically and form) from the dizzying grandeur of his symphonies.


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## danj

Florestan said:


> No disappointment here. I like it. Had not heard it before. In fact, like it so much I just bought a copy. The selling feature was it also includes Egmont (entire work, not just overture) and has Cheryl Studer (major selling point). Could not resist buying it with all that included. Choral Fantasy and Egmont are two of my favorite Beethoven works. Thanks for posting it.
> 
> can listen to clips here: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00000E53B/


No problem! Glad you like it!!

I find other versions are just... too... slow, fast, soft.

Whereas Evgeny's version is juuuust right.


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## ST4

I still can't get enough of the piano sonatas, damn! :cheers:


----------



## Pugg

ST4 said:


> I still can't get enough of the piano sonatas, damn! :cheers:


Try his string quartets....even more exiting


----------



## ST4

Pugg said:


> Try his string quartets....even more exiting


....the string quartets where what got me into Beethoven in the first place.....

The piano works appeal to me far more at the moment though, they're seriously perfect!

On a comparative level, the early quartets bore me but the early sonata's absolutely don't, why is this??? 

Of course, late Beethoven almost always excels


----------



## Pugg

ST4 said:


> ....the string quartets where what got me into Beethoven in the first place.....
> 
> The piano works appeal to me far more at the moment though, they're seriously perfect!
> 
> On a comparative level, the early quartets bore me but the early sonata's absolutely don't, why is this???
> 
> Of course, late Beethoven almost always excels


Must have missed that, sorry .


----------



## hpowders

ST4 said:


> I still can't get enough of the piano sonatas, damn! :cheers:


For me, the 32 piano sonatas as a totality are Beethoven's greatest musical achievement.


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## ST4

hpowders said:


> For me, the 32 piano sonatas as a totality are Beethoven's greatest musical achievement.


You can say that again! 

They are all so good, almost too good


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## hpowders

ST4 said:


> You can say that again!
> 
> They are all so good, almost too good


I try and listen to all the 32 sonatas at least twice a year, usually with Annie Fischer as my tour guide.


----------



## bharbeke

I am loving going through Kikuchi's set right now. So far, I have at least an above average rating for some performance of every sonata except "The Hunt" and "Hammerklavier." I have some other cycles to try, but if you know anyone who excels in either one of those, please let me know.


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## Page

Far from the masterpieces that make Beethoven's glory this infernal Rondo op.129 (completed by Diabelli) "Rage over a lost penny" is worth listening to (live recording) :


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## Tchaikov6

Page said:


> Far from the masterpieces that make Beethoven's glory this infernal Rondo op.129 (completed by Diabelli) "Rage over a lost penny" is worth listening to (live recording) :


Yes, this is a charming piece that shows the light side of Beethoven.


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## Crystal

I like his symphony no.5 & 9 and all of his 32 piano sonatas. My favourite composer of all time!


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## hpowders

Crystal said:


> I like his symphony no.5 & 9 and all of his 32 piano sonatas. My favourite composer of all time!


You have PLENTY of company on TC!!


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## SixFootScowl

Crystal said:


> I like his symphony no.5 & 9 and all of his 32 piano sonatas. My favourite composer of all time!


Definitely me too! But I also like symphonies 3, 4, and 6, Fidelio, Egmont Incidental Music, Missa Solemnis, and Choral Fantasia.


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## danj

Sometimes I wish I was born in the early 1800s.

Beethoven, Hadyn, Jane Austen.

What I would give to see LvB among others perform. And, if I was lucky enough to live near the end of it.. .Johann Strauss II!


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## Mandryka

danj said:


> Sometimes I wish I was born in the early 1800s.
> 
> Beethoven, Hadyn, Jane Austen.
> 
> What I would give to see LvB among others perform. And, if I was lucky enough to live near the end of it.. .Johann Strauss II!


I wonder if Jane Austen would have got on with Beethoven.


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## Merl

danj said:


> Sometimes I wish I was born in the early 1800s.


No chance!! You were lucky to live past 30 without syphilis, cholera or TB killing you off. I#m happy to be alive in the days of modern medicine and the ability to listen to excellent recordings of classical music, played by professional orchestras.


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## danj

You are right. Perhaps... but alas..my life would be completed.

I have been all about the violin concretos lately. Specfically the one in D major. Act 3 my fav. Love it.


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## Animal the Drummer

Violin concretos, eh? Sounds like somebody upset the Mob and ended up beneath a road somewhere.


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## bharbeke

As far as I know, Beethoven only wrote the one in D. Is there an adaptation or some other work that could be considered a second violin concerto, quasi- or otherwise, by Beethoven?


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## Bettina

bharbeke said:


> As far as I know, Beethoven only wrote the one in D. Is there an adaptation or some other work that could be considered a second violin concerto, quasi- or otherwise, by Beethoven?


There's a Triple Concerto for violin, cello, and piano. I guess that could be considered a second violin concerto of sorts??


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## bharbeke

Bettina said:


> There's a Triple Concerto for violin, cello, and piano. I guess that could be considered a second violin concerto of sorts??


Maybe that's it. I can always hope that they unearth a VC #2 for Beethoven, though.


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## Tchaikov6

bharbeke said:


> As far as I know, Beethoven only wrote the one in D. Is there an adaptation or some other work that could be considered a second violin concerto, quasi- or otherwise, by Beethoven?


Maybe his Violin Concerto in C, although that's only a sketch... 




Or his two Romances?


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## danj

This came in the mail today:










I'll be in my reading chair!


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## Bettina

danj said:


> This came in the mail today:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'll be in my reading chair!


I'm so glad that you decided to order this wonderful book! I hope you enjoy it as much as I do. (Actually, I'm not sure if ANYBODY could enjoy it as much as I do, but I hope you come close!!)


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## Heliogabo

I was reading about Beethoven's late style (Adorno and Said wrote about it), and after I saw this I've just ordered this book too.


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## Mal

artisan said:


> I seem to be drawn to fast minor stuff, and being a beethoven fan, then of course I like sonatas no.8 Pathetique 1rst and 3rd movement, have been memorizing no. 17 Tempest,..."


These are fast, but not minor!


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## Mal

bharbeke said:


> I am loving going through Kikuchi's set right now. So far, I have at least an above average rating for some performance of every sonata except "The Hunt" and "Hammerklavier." I have some other cycles to try, but if you know anyone who excels in either one of those, please let me know.


Just been through Kovacevich's set, which is well "above average", except for a couple. For me, he excels in "The Hunt", but not the "Hammerklavier". But try the set, he's converted a few of my "meh, average" reactions to various sonatas into "love it!" reactions.


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## bharbeke

Mal said:


> Just been through Kovacevich's set, which is well "above average", except for a couple. For me, he excels in "The Hunt", but not the "Hammerklavier". But try the set, he's converted a few of my "meh, average" reactions to various sonatas into "love it!" reactions.


Thanks for the tip. I liked or loved all of his Beethoven piano concerto set.


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## bharbeke

Looking at the full list of compositions on wikipedia, I still have a lot of new Beethoven in my future. Does anyone have any recommendations for performers or works within the Anh or Hess portions of his output? In particular, I am interested in the piano arrangement of Wellington's Victory (since pianos don't come equipped with guns the last time I checked).


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## Ras

There is a "new" (from 2014) addition to the Beethoven-library in the form of a huge biography by Swafford: "Beethoven: Anguish and Triumph". 
I'm not buying it - I already have Barry Cooper and Lewis Lockwood on the shelf - both unread. 
A book I enjoyed very much was Harvey Sach's book about Beethoven's Ninth Symphony. : 
https://www.amazon.com/Ninth-Beethoven-World-1824/dp/0812969073/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1507377438&sr=1-1&keywords=the+ninth+beethoven+and+the+world+in+1824


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## Muse Wanderer

I just listened to a favourite recording of mine, Beethoven's 'Missa Solemnis' conducted by Otto Klemperer with the New Philarmonic Orchestra (EMI, 1965).










Here I am reeling from the ecstatic experience that Klemperer manages to render. This seminal Beethoven work may well be his greatest. He spent four agonising years working on it, polishing it further and further, spending sleepless nights on intricate details. Beethoven's majestic fugues at the end of the Gloria and Credo are a tapestry of genius of equal intensity to Bach's contrapuntal writing but with a modern spiritual touch. The choral writing is shouty as ever, as if Beethoven is expecting your full and undivided attention. Beethoven aimed to achieve spiritual enlightenment from a humanistic and natural perspective rather than through dogmatic church teachings. This is so evident in this Missa that is an embodiment of human endeavour and struggle for knowledge and spiritual fulfilment.

Klemperer's attention to detail and overall structural integrity of this piece shows his meandering study of the work's vision. After intricate fugal and wonderful music of the Kyrie, Gloria and Credo, in comes one of the most beautiful solo violin pieces in the Benedictus, whereby the violin dances around the voices with the flute. It feels as if the gates of heaven open to the listener encompassing his soul for eternity.

The Agnus Dei lingers in melancholy with the repeated 'miserere' that hypnotises the listener. Bach's finale in his Mass in B minor is a platonic idealistic peaceful ending. In contrast, Beethoven's Dona Nobis Pacem with its words of peace to all humanity concludes this magnificent work with a touch of agitation with march-like trumpets and warring timpani. This agitation in the ending finally ends in a satisfying but short cadenza. The lingering feeling of the finale mirrors Beethoven's own experience of the Napoleonic wars whereby for humanity to achieve lasting peace, the trumpets and timpani of war need to be suppressed and controlled with enlightened modern thinking and philosophy. 

Beethoven's Missa Solemnis is a treasure to behold for life.

Beethoven's own words inscribed in the original manuscript hold true...

"From the heart - may it return to the heart!"


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## tortkis

bharbeke said:


> Looking at the full list of compositions on wikipedia, I still have a lot of new Beethoven in my future. Does anyone have any recommendations for performers or works within the Anh or Hess portions of his output? In particular, I am interested in the piano arrangement of Wellington's Victory (since pianos don't come equipped with guns the last time I checked).


Brilliant Classics released digital albums of Beethoven edition at a reasonable price. This seems convenient for me to check out the composer's not so popular works with WoO/Hess numbers, although the digital version does not contain all the recordings in the CD set. As far as I checked, disk 12, 15, 16, 63, 64, 69, and 70 are missing (Wellington's Victory, Octet, Sextet, Fidelio, some marches and cantatas, etc.)

Track list of the 85-CD set
http://brilliantclassics.com/articles/b/beethoven-edition-new/

I purchased the mp3 albums volume 5 for WoO 63-80 and volume 7 for choral works & songs. Variations WoO 63-80 are played by Alessandro Commellato on fortepiano. I think the compositions and the performance are both very good. The melodies of some borrowed themes are rather boring, but the variations are brilliant.

Unfortunatelly, piano arrangement of Wellington's Victory (Hess 97) is not included, even in the CD box set. Nieuwenhuizen's _Beethoven: Unknown Piano Music_ (containing Hess 97) looks interesting.


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## KenOC

Some (almost unknown) Beethoven pieces worth having are his variations for flute and piano on various national tunes Opp. 105 & 107, several of which are instantly recognizable. No heaven storming here, but a lot of fun. Plus, some variations presage passages in his later piano sonata variations and the Diabellis. My old Rampal recording seems no longer available, but it's all in the Brilliant box, or there's this.


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## JosefinaHW

I watched part of _Fidelio_ for the first time last night and I am curious to know if anyone else thinks it is a terrible opera. I absolutely did not expect to hear speaking; in German that isn't even called an operetta, much less an opera is it? Even if the performance I chose is part of the problem, I only heard one piece of music that I liked in the first part of the opera--an early quartet, I don't know the name because I have no libretto.

I chose the following performance because I love the singing of Laszlo Polgar; he plays Rocco. Of course I will watch the entire opera, but I want to know if there is something wrong going on here.


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## SixFootScowl

JosefinaHW said:


> I watched part of _Fidelio_ for the first time last night and I am curious to know if anyone else thinks it is a terrible opera. I absolutely did not expect to hear speaking; in German that isn't even called an operetta, much less an opera is it? Even if the performance I chose is part of the problem, I only heard one piece of music that I liked in the first part of the opera--an early quartet, I don't know the name because I have no libretto.
> 
> I chose the following performance because I love the singing of Laszlo Polgar; he plays Rocco. Of course I will watch the entire opera, but I want to know if there is something wrong going on here.


I think Beethoven wrote his operas more symphonically than other composers did. Though that should not be the issue for you.

I felt that Kaufmann/Nulund Fidileo you watched was pretty good, but the one I like best and the one that got me into opera in the first place is this magnificent production (YouTube of entire opera with English subtitles here):









I have watched every commercial Fidelio video I am aware of being in existence and have most of them, but have not watched the one where Leonore bares her breasts at the dungeon scene.

Anyway, if the spoken dialogue bothers you you could try this unusual performance (which I liked a lot and also with Kaufmann). Instead of the spoken dialog it has weird noises like music being played extremely slow (only at the dialog parts). It also has a lot of weird stuff going on, so it not a traditional performance, but wonderfully sung (Clip on YT):


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## JosefinaHW

Thank you for your response, Fritz. The speaking doesn't bother me at all--I love the sound of German. It just shocked me, especially since it is Beethoven. It's the music of the first part, apart from the quartet, that I just did not like. My initial dislike of some operas that I later like seems to be a pattern. ?

I'm going to watch your favorite now. (Thank you, again.)


----------



## Star

JosefinaHW said:


> I watched part of _Fidelio_ for the first time last night and I am curious to know if anyone else thinks it is a terrible opera. I absolutely did not expect to hear speaking; in German that isn't even called an operetta, much less an opera is it? Even if the performance I chose is part of the problem, I only heard one piece of music that I liked in the first part of the opera--an early quartet, I don't know the name because I have no libretto.
> 
> I chose the following performance because I love the singing of Laszlo Polgar; he plays Rocco. Of course I will watch the entire opera, but I want to know if there is something wrong going on here.


It's probably not a great 'opera' as it is a singspeil but Beethoven's genius makes sure it is a great work. I can never fail to be moved by the prisoners chorus and the final duet. I would make sure you watch a decent straight production not some regiethreatre nonsense which does disservice to Beethoven's intentions.


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## KenOC

My wife is playing the Missa Solemnis now. She says it's better than the Choral. Is it? Any thoughts?


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## Art Rock

KenOC said:


> My wife is playing the Missa Solemnis now. She says it's better than the Choral. Is it? Any thoughts?


I agree, but then again, honestly I like neither (Beethoven and voices - does not work for me).


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## Merl

KenOC said:


> My wife is playing the Missa Solemnis now. She says it's better than the Choral. Is it? Any thoughts?


Not in my book but plenty will disagree with me. As far a Fidelio is concerned, btw, I can't stand it but I'm not an opera fan either.


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## SixFootScowl

KenOC said:


> My wife is playing the Missa Solemnis now. She says it's better than the Choral. Is it? Any thoughts?


I find it hard to compare the two for a ranking. They are both great!


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## bharbeke

My Fidelio recommendations are Karajan with the BPO and Klemperer with the Philharmonia Orchestra. Wonderful music and sound!


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## Josquin13

"I absolutely did not expect to hear speaking"

Was speaking in German opera during Beethoven's day such an anomaly? Have you seen Mozart's "The Magic Flute" and "The Abduction from the Seraglio"? Both were Singspiels, as well.


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## Mandryka

JosefinaHW said:


> I watched part of _Fidelio_ for the first time last night and I am curious to know if anyone else thinks it is a terrible opera. I absolutely did not expect to hear speaking; in German that isn't even called an operetta, much less an opera is it? Even if the performance I chose is part of the problem, I only heard one piece of music that I liked in the first part of the opera--an early quartet, I don't know the name because I have no libretto.
> 
> I chose the following performance because I love the singing of Laszlo Polgar; he plays Rocco. Of course I will watch the entire opera, but I want to know if there is something wrong going on here.


It has some wonderful things in it, the Leonora 3 overture hopefully played when you come back from the bar for Act 2, Florestan's recitative and aria (like something out of Handel's Samson I think), and the big chorus of prisoners at the end. It's a perfectly agreeable night out and I wouldn't object to seeing it again in an imaginative production. On record there have been some magical interpretations - Klemperer, Karajan . . .


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## Mandryka

KenOC said:


> My wife is playing the Missa Solemnis now. She says it's better than the Choral. Is it? Any thoughts?


Is your wife very seriously into Christianity by any chance?


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## JosefinaHW

Josquin13 said:


> "I absolutely did not expect to hear speaking"
> 
> Was speaking in German opera during Beethoven's day such an anomaly? Have you seen Mozart's "The Magic Flute" and "The Abduction from the Seraglio"? Both were Singspiels, as well.


Maybe my understanding of singspiel and zarzuela are too limited. Yes, I knew that The Magic Flute was a singspiel, but I have thought that two important characteristic of singspiel are a catchy, quick action and a element of comedy. Before watching Fidelio I had heard the various overtures (although I didn't know that the Leonore was for Fidelio) and they don't sound light, humorous or catchy to me. Is my understanding incorrect?


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## JosefinaHW

To All: Thank you for the recommendations and your input. I watched an hour of Fritz' favorite last night and it was much better than the Zurich Opera production, but I'm still not enjoying it. I don't want to insult or offend anyone here: I'm going to put it aside for a week and approach it again with a new frame of mind.


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## JosefinaHW

Art Rock said:


> I agree, but then again, honestly I like neither (Beethoven and voices - does not work for me).


I've said this a million times, so I'm sorry if you've read this a million times, but I think the _Agnus Dei_ is one of the most honest pieces of music I've ever heard, I just wish he had made it longer.


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## KenOC

Mandryka said:


> Is your wife very seriously into Christianity by any chance?


My wife is a partially lapsed village Buddhist. By "village" Buddhist I mean somebody whose experience of Buddhism is as actually practiced in rural Asia, not our Western bourgeois intellectual bloodless Buddhism. A very different thing, and not necessarily preferable from our rather different viewpoint (or from hers!)


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## SixFootScowl

JosefinaHW said:


> To All: Thank you for the recommendations and your input. I watched an hour of Fritz' favorite last night and it was much better than the Zurich Opera production, but I'm still not enjoying it. I don't want to insult or offend anyone here: I'm going to put it aside for a week and approach it again with a new frame of mind.


I guess I can only say that Fidelio is in a way unlike any other opera because Beethoven only wrote that one opera. It certainly does not carry one along like bel canto Rossini opera. I think you really have to be in more of a symphonic listening frame of mind for Fidelio. Also, I am not sure exactly what you are looking for, but nothing says you have to enjoy Fidelio vs some other opera. I am curious what are some operas you have enjoyed?

The curious thing about Fidelio is that it starts out as a very light-hearted, frivolous story of Marzelline and Jaquino having an argument as she spurns Jaquino (almost a Mozartian type opera) and even has rather comical march music to introduce the villain, but from that point on the opera becomes dead serious. Beethoven really slam-dunks it putting the listener in a light hearted mood then lets all Hell break loose.


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## JosefinaHW

^^Thank you for your suggestion re/ symphonic listening frame of mind. I'll take this as an opportunity finally to watch Simon Rattle and Berlin Philharmonic's latest performances of the symphonies. Then I will watch _Fidelio_ again. I am also very grateful that you suggested the Popp version.


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## Merl

KenOC said:


> My wife is a partially lapsed village Buddhist. By "village" Buddhist I mean somebody whose experience of Buddhism is as actually practiced in rural Asia, not our Western bourgeois intellectual bloodless Buddhism. A very different thing, and not necessarily preferable from our rather different viewpoint (or from hers!)


'Partially Lapsed Village Buddhist' sounds like a Morrissey single.


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## Josquin13

JosefinaHW said:


> Maybe my understanding of singspiel and zarzuela are too limited. Yes, I knew that The Magic Flute was a singspiel, but I have thought that two important characteristic of singspiel are a catchy, quick action and a element of comedy. Before watching Fidelio I had heard the various overtures (although I didn't know that the Leonore was for Fidelio) and they don't sound light, humorous or catchy to me. Is my understanding incorrect?


I agree there is an element of lightness, exuberance, quick action, and comedy in a singspiel. But surely "The Magic Flute" is more than just that? So too is Fidelio, I would say. (As Mozart was never far from Beethoven's mind... though I'm not claiming Fidelio is as fine an opera as Mozart's, it isn't, in my view.)

If you're interested in exploring further, I'd recommend that you hear a conductor that conduct's Fidelio as a singspiel, as (I expect) most are too heavy and serious (& overly romantic). I don't know the Harnoncourt DVD, but would strongly recommend Kurt Masur's Fidelio in Leipzig, originally released on Eurodisc (an early digital recording). Masur wisely conducts the opera in the same vein as Mozart's "The Magic Flute"--though I'm not sure if all of the dialogue is included, as it may have been partially cut out in order to fit the opera onto 2 CDs. Nevertheless, Masur's conducting is well worth hearing for his 'period' understanding of the opera's singspiel style. The Gewandhaus Orchestra also plays magnificently (incredibly well). For these reasons, I prefer Masur's Fidelio to those conducted by Klemperer, Bernstein, etc. Suffice it say that when this recording came out in the 1982, the late William Mann wrote a glowing review of it.

https://www.amazon.com/Beethoven-Fi...coding=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=4C8AQJEYBH9RTEAY5C6J
https://www.amazon.com/Beethoven-Fidelio-Op-Frank-Peter-Spaethe/dp/B01AMWKI98


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## juliante

Just posting to express my delight in listening to SQ 10 ‘Harp’ today after maybe a 2 year break. It’s such a wonderful piece I find, so engaging throughout and with a gorgeously lyrical slow movement that I had not until today fully appreciated. I feel it gets a bit overlooked, sandwiched between the famous Razumovsky set and the mythical late quartets. I much prefer it to 12 and 16. Any love out there for Harp?


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## bharbeke

I like bits of it, but it hasn't blown me away yet. What are a couple great recordings of the Harp quartet?


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## juliante

bharbeke said:


> I like bits of it, but it hasn't blown me away yet. What are a couple great recordings of the Harp quartet?


Can't say I have an overview Bharbeke. I have the recording by Takacs. I tend to love the version I first hear and struggle with alternative ones! But I think the Takacs is well regarded. Give it another go!


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## bharbeke

juliante said:


> Can't say I have an overview Bharbeke. I have the recording by Takacs. I tend to love the version I first hear and struggle with alternative ones! But I think the Takacs is well regarded. Give it another go!


I'll check it out, as that is not one of the versions I've heard before. Thanks!


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## Mandryka

bharbeke said:


> I like bits of it, but it hasn't blown me away yet. What are a couple great recordings of the Harp quartet?


Orford
Sine Nomine
Julliard
Tatrai

Not Takacs for me, too harsh.


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## danj

My local orchestra (Birmingham, Alabama, USA) is doing Beethoven's all nine symphonies. I am happy to announce that I just secured Mezzanine seats for the wife and I for his 3rd, 5th, 7th and 9th Symphonies! So excited.


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## danj

danj said:


> My local orchestra (Birmingham, Alabama, USA) is doing Beethoven's all nine symphonies. I am happy to announce that I just secured Mezzanine seats for the wife and I for his 3rd, 5th, 7th and 9th Symphonies! So excited.


I got tickets for ALL his nine. Just bringing the wife to the 5th, 7th and 9th.


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## caters

Ludwig Van Beethoven has always been important to me. In more ways than one. As a pianist, he prepared me for Chopin and then again for Toccata and Fugue in D minor. He has always been my favorite composer as well. I love how expressive he is. And it isn't just the minor keys and sudden dynamics. Even his C major can sound equally as dramatic as C minor. The only composition of his where I know C major is used as a neutral key like it is for most composers is his first symphony. Even his first C major sonata sounds to me just as dramatic as his more famous Pathetique Sonata.

Here are my favorite Beethoven pieces outside of his most famous 3 symphonies:

Pathetique Sonata
Appasionata Sonata
Piano Sonata no. 1 in F minor
Piano Concerto no. 3
Piano Concerto no. 5
Rage over a lost penny
Fur Elise
Pastoral Symphony

And Beethoven is the one who keeps inspiring me to compose. Maybe someday I will compose a symphony. Maybe it will be just a year from now. Maybe it will be a decade from now. Maybe it will never happen. Who knows, right? But I still compose not only because I like composing but also because of Beethoven. Mozart may have given me the initial inspiration to compose while I was an intermediate pianist but Beethoven has kept me going as a composer.


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## flamencosketches

^I'm actually listening to his C major sonata right now, as played by Alfred Brendel. His interpretations of these early opus 2 sonatas really makes them click for me in a way that they never had before. I hear the drama you describe for sure. This adagio for example is really intense. 

Anyway, I'm a big fan of Beethoven too. Sometimes his music is all I want to listen to for a week, sometimes I don't want to hear any of it. I'm currently burned out on all of the symphonies, but I keep coming back to the piano sonatas, the string quartets, and lately the piano concertos too (never used to get these – I think I was always comparing them to Mozart's concertos). 

As I alluded to before, I recommend Brendel in the opus 2 sonatas if you're unfamiliar. I think as a pianist you will appreciate his skill. He makes the music sound so cool and effortless while not sacrificing a bit of musicality.

Thanks for reviving the thread.


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## tdc

I was reading a bit about Beethoven the other day, and it brought back a memory of this conversation in regards the popularity of Bach and Beethoven in their own time:



hreichgott said:


> Being well-known among the connoisseurs and being well-known among the general public are two very different things.





EdwardBast said:


> Well yes, but what other church composers from that era were really hot with the general public? Was there even a public for them before the time of the revival? These aren't rhetorical questions. I'm wondering if he wasn't more or less as popular as his species got at that time. And was the notion of composers known for posterity even current then except among connoisseurs? Isn't the significance of the Bach revival more the fact that anyone was thinking about past composers at all rather than the vagaries of Bach's popularity over time?


It is commonly pointed out that Bach was not as popular in his day relative to Beethoven, and in addition to this I often notice people commenting on how Bach was considered old-fashioned in his time, where Beethoven was the cutting edge composer showing the way forward into the Romantic era, which is why I was surprised to come across this quote from Charles Rosen (which echoes Beethoven's own sentiments from around 1822):

"At the end of his life, Beethoven was decidedly out of fashion."

Rosen points out Beethoven's music was considered old fashioned towards the end of his life, and this was exacerbated by his returning closer to his Classical roots in his later pieces. He goes on to point out aside from Schubert Beethoven's music had little impact on early Romantic composers like Chopin, and it wasn't until Brahms and Wagner that his influence on the era became more noticeable. Fashions aside, both Bach and Beethoven were revered by following composers as among the greatest of masters, but in both cases towards the end of their lives musical tastes had gone in another direction.


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## KenOC

tdc said:


> ...Rosen points out Beethoven's music was considered old fashioned towards the end of his life, and this was exacerbated by his returning closer to his Classical roots in his later pieces.


I suspect that Rosen is a bit off-base with that comment, which I read also. Beethoven himself was somewhat bitter that people like Rossini seemed quite popular while his music had less immediate appeal for the Viennese. A quote from 1824: "No one has a mind any more for what is good, what is vigorous -- in short, for real music! Yes, yes, that's how it is, you Viennese! Rossini and his pals, they're your heroes. You want nothing more from me! Sometimes Schuppanzigh gets a quartet out of me, but you've no time for the symphonies, and you don't want Fidelio. It's Rossini, Rossini above everything. Perhaps your soulless strumming and singing, your own shoddy stuff that you take for real art -- that's your taste. Oh, you Viennese!"

However, there was at least one complete cycle of his symphonies played in Vienna during his lifetime. He was acknowledged as Europe's greatest master of serious music (which Rossini decidedly was not). He made a lot of money selling "subscriptions" to his later works, which included not only admission to premier performances but copies of the scores as well. There was a "modern music" contingent, or so it seems, that was egging Beethoven on to write ever more "advanced" works. And above all, publishers were vying for his late quartets, offering handsome prices that far exceeded what he was paid for works like the 9th Symphony, in terms of revenue versus the time required to write them.

Largely as a result, Beethoven spent his last years solely in writing quartets, the longest he had ever dedicated to a single genre. Hardly out of fashion, I think.


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## hammeredklavier

tdc said:


> I was surprised to come across this quote from Charles Rosen (which echoes Beethoven's own sentiments from around 1822):


There was one time Charles Rosen "used the song (Adelaide, Op. 46) to exemplify his claim that, somewhat paradoxically, Beethoven actually drew closer to the compositional practice of his predecessors Haydn and Mozart as his career evolved:

With age, Beethoven drew closer to the forms and proportions of Haydn and Mozart. In his youthful works, the imitation of his two great precursors is largely exterior: in technique and even in spirit, he is at the beginning of his career often closer to Hummel, Weber, and to the later works of Clementi than to Haydn and Mozart ... The equilibrium between harmonic and thematic development so characteristic of Haydn and Mozart is often lost in early Beethoven, where thematic contrast and transformation seem to outweigh all other interests. Beethoven, indeed, started as a true member of his generation, writing now in a proto-Romantic style and now in a late and somewhat attenuated version of the classical style, with an insistence on the kind of broad, square melodic structure that was to find its true justification later in the Romantic period of the 1830's. The early song Adelaide is as much Italian Romantic opera as anything else: its long, winding melody, symmetrical and passionate, its colorful modulations and aggressively simple accompaniment could come easily from an early work of Bellini."


----------



## Guest

It's quite well known that Charles Rosen regarded Beethoven as being a "Classical" style composer throughout his composing career. This has been raised in one or two other recent threads on the topic of classical versus romantic composers. I'm not clear what those who regard Beethoven as a "romantic" composer think about Rosen's opinion. They themselves appear to think that Beethoven began to sound "romantic" in style at some point (Eroica?), so it must be "romantic".


----------



## Janspe

Revisited two piano trios tonight: the C minor (Op. 1 #3) and the great B-flat major (Op. 97); both works that I love dearly but haven't listened to in ages. I'm so fond of the last trio, all of the movements move me deeply. The very early C minor is a powerful, youthful and dramatic work.

The Trio con Brio Copenhagen played wonderfully in their recent recording:









Also listened to the _Christus am Ölberge_ (Op. 85) for the first time in years - I think I've only ever heard it once! It's important to remember that there are so many works by the great composers that lie in the shadows of the more famous ones. I enjoyed the experience very much and will return to work soon. The recording also included the _Elegischer Gesang_ (Op. 118) which is a totally unknown work for me, so that's one box ticked from Beethoven's massive oeuvre...









Sometimes I "forget" about Beethoven - what I mean is that he's _so_ great and omnipresent everywhere all the time that one sort of takes his work for granted. Until one day one of his immortal pieces hits you in the face like nothing else, and then you remember why people revere him so much in the first place... I think I need to return to the string quartets soon!


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## flamencosketches

I am always "forgetting" about Beethoven and sometimes am pleasantly surprised with remembrance. All in all, I am not very far along in my discovery of his music. I still need to hear many of the late quartets, and several of the piano sonatas. I've heard none of the trios. He wrote so much amazing music, yet I am frequently phasing in and out of interest. Right now, I am most interested in his late piano sonatas, and his vocal music, including the 9th symphony (which I am just beginning to enjoy for the first time) and his Lieder. So when you mention the "forgotten" work Christus am Ölberge, it really intrigues me. I will have to check out this recording you have mentioned.


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## millionrainbows

I heard this "blind" on the radio, and assumed it was Mozart. I certainly didn't associate it with Beethoven.

12:32 PMSextet for Two Horns and Strings in E-flat Major, Op.81bLudwig van BeethovenGewandhaus QuartetHermann Baumann, Vladimir Dhambasov, hornsPhilips 426440

That's one of the problems for me with Beethoven's "unquestioned" status as a CM icon.


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## ECraigR

millionrainbows said:


> I heard this "blind" on the radio, and assumed it was Mozart. I certainly didn't associate it with Beethoven.
> 
> 12:32 PMSextet for Two Horns and Strings in E-flat Major, Op.81bLudwig van BeethovenGewandhaus QuartetHermann Baumann, Vladimir Dhambasov, hornsPhilips 426440
> 
> That's one of the problems for me with Beethoven's "unquestioned" status as a CM icon.


Composers have minor works, and not every piece they write is going to be wholly representative of their sound. Also, Beethoven was strongly influenced by Mozart, so not surprising that he'd have a piece or two that sounds like him.


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## Xisten267

ECraigR said:


> Composers have minor works, and not every piece they write is going to be wholly representative of their sound. Also, Beethoven was strongly influenced by Mozart, so not surprising that he'd have a piece or two that sounds like him.


Also, the piece in question was composed in 1795, so it's early Beethoven, and his first compositional period is known for being heavily influenced by other classical era great composers such as Haydn and Mozart.


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## Guest

This has prompted me to take a look at my collection of Beethoven's vocal and choral works other than the obvious, well-known ones like Fidelio, Symphony No 9, Missa Solemnis.

There's quite a lot. Picking out a small selection that I particularly like:

Op 46 - Adelaide (nice versions by Fritz Wunderlich and Jussi Björling)

Op 65 - Ah Perfido! (Maria Callas, Orchestre de la Société des Concerts du Conservatoire)

Op 80 - Fantasy in C Minor for piano & orchestra (Evgeny Kissin, Berlin RIAS)

Op 98 - An die ferne Geliebte (_To the distant beloved)_ (Dietrich Fischer-Dieskau, Jörg Demus

Op 128 - Der Kuss (Fritz Wunderlich)

WoO 149 - Resignation


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## flamencosketches

I really need to check out An die ferne Geliebte more... I might track down either that DFD/Jörg Demus CD, or the Matthias Goerne/Alfred Brendel which also looks great.

Aside from that, I have not heard the Choral Fantasy, but I love all the other lesser-known pieces you singled out. I am less keen on the vocal writing in the 9th, have not heard Fidelio, and I like the Missa quite a bit. Beethoven seems to be really quite inconsistent as a writer for the voice.

One final note on Beethoven's vocal music, I really enjoy this performance:


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## Littlephrase

millionrainbows said:


> I heard this "blind" on the radio, and assumed it was Mozart. I certainly didn't associate it with Beethoven.
> 
> 12:32 PMSextet for Two Horns and Strings in E-flat Major, Op.81bLudwig van BeethovenGewandhaus QuartetHermann Baumann, Vladimir Dhambasov, hornsPhilips 426440
> 
> That's one of the problems for me with Beethoven's "unquestioned" status as a CM icon.


What are you saying? How can derivative early works dilute or throw into a question the iconic status of Beethoven?


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## flamencosketches

What are some great recordings of Fidelio? I have sampled and liked the Bernstein/Vienna. Perhaps Böhm/Dresden? I love early/mid Beethoven and have not heard this opera.


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## SixFootScowl

flamencosketches said:


> What are some great recordings of Fidelio? I have sampled and liked the Bernstein/Vienna. Perhaps Böhm/Dresden? I love early/mid Beethoven and have not heard this opera.


I also really like the Bernstein Fidelio a lot. You need the DVD. It is my favorite of the dozen or so videos of Fidelio that I have watched. Janowitz is a great Leonore.

I am not qualified to tell you what the "great recordings" are, but in my opinion, this recording is great:


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## Littlephrase

flamencosketches said:


> What are some great recordings of Fidelio? I have sampled and liked the Bernstein/Vienna. Perhaps Böhm/Dresden? I love early/mid Beethoven and have not heard this opera.


The Klemperer/Philharmonia is the one I listen to most often.


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## Mandryka

flamencosketches said:


> What are some great recordings of Fidelio? I have sampled and liked the Bernstein/Vienna. Perhaps Böhm/Dresden? I love early/mid Beethoven and have not heard this opera.


Klemperer for Vickers.


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## bharbeke

Fidelio: Karajan with the BPO and Klemperer with the Philharmonia are my top picks.


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## DavidA

bharbeke said:


> Fidelio: Karajan with the BPO and Klemperer with the Philharmonia are my top picks.


Karajan is far better here as Klemperer's leaden tempi kill the drama in spite of Ludwig's Leonora


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## DavidA

Fritz Kobus said:


> I also really like the Bernstein Fidelio a lot. You need the DVD. It is my favorite of the dozen or so videos of Fidelio that I have watched. Janowitz is a great Leonore.
> 
> I am not qualified to tell you what the "great recordings" are, but in my opinion, this recording is great:


Worth hearing for Kaufmann but frankly not much else


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## SixFootScowl

DavidA said:


> Worth hearing for Kaufmann but frankly not much else


That might explain why it is not a resident on my MP3 player, but just gets played occasionally.


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## Mandryka

DavidA said:


> Karajan is far better here as Klemperer's leaden tempi kill the drama in spite of Ludwig's Leonora


I think you're wrong.


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## Guest

I've been happy enough with the Abbado/Lucerne version of Fidelio, but opera is not high on list of preferences so I haven't bothered to explore alternatives in much detail.


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## Clouds Weep Snowflakes

One of my favorite composers, I'll give one example of *Fur Elise*; Beethoven died single and without issue, and this piece was only discovered 40 years after the compower's death, so who was Elise? The "immortal beloved"? Just a friend? Maybe even an imaginaru figure? What was going in his mind while composing this? We might never know...


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## Guest

I have recently listened to Beethoven's String Quartet Op 132 (this time the Endellion Quartet) and I must say I am inclined to say the third movement (Molto Adagio - Andante) is the finest single movement of Beethoven that I can call to mind. The intensity of the harmony and voice leading in the chorale/hymn section is unsurpassed. Amazing the richness that can be created with only four instruments. Strauss' Metamorphosen, with 23 independent string instruments, can't touch it!


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## Mandryka

I have a recording, not a commercial one, of op 132, by the Lasalle Quartet, where they take the third movement really briskly, in about 12.5 minutes, and they play it very contrapuntally, each individual instrument's contribution absolutely clear to hear and independent. For me it was a revelation. Let me know if you want it.


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## Janspe

I heard a wonderful interpretation of the 5th piano concerto last week - Elisabeth Leonskaja with the Helsinki Philharmonic, led by Antonello Manacorda. I've heard the piece a few times in a concert before, but I doesn't pop up in programmes _that_ often here, and I tend to skip it anyway since I don't want to be over-exposed to it. I'm really glad I went, it was an amazingly vivid and interesting take on the classic piece.

After the intermission it was time for the 3rd symphony, a piece that gets played here _all the time_. I think it should be played a bit less often perhaps, but then again it's a towering masterpiece and besides, there's always someone in the audience who's never heard the piece before!

It's amazing that even the most often-played of Beethoven's works still manage to deeply move the audience!

The concert started with a great favourite of mine, Schoenberg's _Ode to Napoleon_, Op. 41. I'm very happy to finally having heard the piece live; I do love Schoenberg so very much and I haven't experienced a lot of his work live yet. The orchestra played the piece in a string orchestra version - I personally would have preferred the smaller-scale version but it's only a minor complaint.


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## Janspe

Thus begins the much-awaited (or much-dreaded, depending on who you ask...) Beethoven year 2020!

I decided to start the year by revisiting an old favourite recording of mine, the complete string quartets interpreted by the brilliant Quartetto Italiano. The first piece I listened to was unsurprisingly the *String Quartet in F major, Op. 18 No. 1.* I'm quite fond of the piece, especially the slow second movement in the dark key of D minor that is arguably the beating heart of this otherwise quite light-weight work.

Something I'm intending to do throughout this year is to set all of the Beethoven works I'll listen to into a dialogue with contemporary works for the same instrumentation by composers I love. I feel like I can't just have another marathon of Beethoven listening, it needs te be enriched by contemporary takes on the forms and ensembles he used in his output.

As the first "companion piece" I've chosen Gubaidulina's *String Quartet No. 1.* It's a fascinating, atmospheric work from the early 1970's, and within its 20-minute span it conjures up interesting textures and sounds, as is usual for Gubaidulina's work. I'm still not fully familiar with it, but based on a few listens it's a worthy work deserving careful attention. Quatuor Molinari's recording of the work (and all of the other Gubaidulina quartes + a few other works) is to be recommended warmly.

Looking forward to continuing on with this project; the idea of later on checking out 32 contemporary piano sonatas along with those of Beethoven is intriguing indeed!

What plans does the TC community have for this Beethoven year, if any?


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## flamencosketches

^I like your plan. I might try and do similar with some of my time.

I have yet to listen to any Beethoven this year, yet. I need to change that. I have recently bought the complete violin sonatas, the recording with Renaud Capuçon and Frank Braley. Perhaps I will dip into that later today.

I don't plan on doing a massive Beethoven marathon all year round, as I know I would grow tired of his music quickly if it was all I was hearing. So I need to find a way to honor his music without burning it all out.


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## Allegro Con Brio

flamencosketches said:


> ^I like your plan. I might try and do similar with some of my time.
> 
> I have yet to listen to any Beethoven this year, yet. I need to change that. I have recently bought the complete violin sonatas, the recording with Renaud Capuçon and Frank Braley. Perhaps I will dip into that later today.
> 
> I don't plan on doing a massive Beethoven marathon all year round, as I know I would grow tired of his music quickly if it was all I was hearing. So I need to find a way to honor his music without burning it all out.


I feel the same way. Beethoven for me has an intake limit. I love hearing different interpretations of the symphonies, piano sonatas, string quartets, etc. but I just can't take a lot of it at once. I plan to explore some of the lesser-known chamber music this year, and hopefully listen through all 32 sonatas and all 16 quartets in order, as I haven't heard them all. That should be enough to tide me over for the year


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## flamencosketches

Allegro Con Brio said:


> I feel the same way. Beethoven for me has an intake limit. I love hearing different interpretations of the symphonies, piano sonatas, string quartets, etc. but I just can't take a lot of it at once. I plan to explore some of the lesser-known chamber music this year, and hopefully listen through all 32 sonatas and all 16 quartets in order, as I haven't heard them all. That should be enough to tide me over for the year


I think I've heard all of the quartets by now, though I can't remember all of op.18 off the top of my head. I've definitely not heard all of the sonatas, but I have heard most. There are a few in the teens and twenties that I don't think I've heard.

Beethoven has written so much great music that I would love to be able to binge listen for days on end and hear it all, but I just can't. Always in moderation.


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## EdwardBast

Clouds Weep Snowflakes said:


> One of my favorite composers, I'll give one example of *Fur Elise*; Beethoven died single and without issue, and this piece was only discovered 40 years after the compower's death, so who was Elise? The "immortal beloved"? Just a friend? Maybe even an imaginaru figure? What was going in his mind while composing this? We might never know...


_Für Elise_ was written for Therese Malfatti, whom Beethoven was courting around 1810, the presumption being that Elise was a nickname(?) The work was accompanied by a tender letter which, along with the manuscript, was found among Malfatti's Beethoven memorabilia.


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## KenOC

EdwardBast said:


> _Für Elise_ was written for Therese Malfatti, whom Beethoven was courting around 1810, the presumption being that Elise was a nickname(?) The work was accompanied by a tender letter which, along with the manuscript, was found among Malfatti's Beethoven memorabilia.


I need to point out that any identification of "Elise" is purely conjectural. There is little or no evidence. Wiki has a good discussion in its _*Für Elise*_ entry, and summarizes: "The identity of 'Elise' is unknown; researchers have suggested Therese Malfatti, Elisabeth Röckel, or Elise Barensfeld."


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## Guest

When I started listening to classical middle period, heroic, Beethoven was my bread and butter, the 5th, 6th 7th symphonies, etc. At this point I find myself intensely interested in late Beethoven, particularly the string quartets and piano sonatas, and rarely find myself listening to anything earlier than around Opus 90. The 8th symphony has become my favorite.


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## Janspe

Baron Scarpia said:


> At this point I find myself intensely interested in late Beethoven, particularly the string quartets and piano sonatas, and rarely find myself listening to anything earlier than around Opus 90. The 8th symphony has become my favorite.


I tend to be more interested in the late period as well; though recently my interest for the early Beethoven has been rekindled again. A lot of the music is just so damn _fun!_ I do love his middle period works as well, but sometimes it feels a bit .. much. Difficult to approach, you need a particular state of mind to really go into the heroic works.

Meanwhile, I have continued my string quartet project with the G major quartet, Op. 18 No. 2. What a fun, care-free piece! I like it very much indeed, there's something to cherish in each movement. Similarly to last time, I listened to some Gubaidulina as a companion piece. Her 2nd string quartet is only 10-minutes long, but it's a very interesting piece. Wish I could hear her chamber works live more often.


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## Chatellerault

I feel like starting some comparative listening of 3 or 4 recordings of the cello sonatas this year.

I'm thinking about the following:

Isserlis/Levin (or another one with period instruments)
Rostropovich/Richter (a cherished LP in my collection)
Maisky/Argerich (perhaps unorthodox but some fresh readings?)

Any comments about these recordings? Any other recommendations? I'm mostly interested in fortepiano or 1950s-60s. Fournier or Casals are worth checking for this repertoire?


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## HerbertNorman

My father's favourite composer and also in my top two because of that. This is the composer I grew up with you could say... I must say the recordings of the concerto's and symphonies conducted by Herbert von Karajan are still my favourites. 

I have been exploring all his chamber music and the late quartets are my favourites. Does anyone have tips for perticular recordings of these quartets? Thank you!


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## Allegro Con Brio

HerbertNorman said:


> My father's favourite composer and also in my top two because of that. This is the composer I grew up with you could say... I must say the recordings of the concerto's and symphonies conducted by Herbert von Karajan are still my favourites.
> 
> I have been exploring all his chamber music and the late quartets are my favourites. Does anyone have tips for perticular recordings of these quartets? Thank you!


The late quartets are some of my favorite art to ever be produced- not just music, but art in general. Really a pinnacle of humanity's achievements if you ask me. The classic not-to-be-missed set is the Busch Quartet. Far from perfect playing and sound quality but they burrow into the soul of this music like few others. My next favorite is the Juilliard, which often gets underrated. Wonderfully creative and refreshing performances. I would also recommend the Lindsays, Takacs, Italiano, and Wihan- all very different and equally valid. The Alban Berg Quartett's set of the late quartets often gets high plaudits, but I find them far too tame and safe in this supremely adventurous music.


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## flamencosketches

I really like the Kodály Quartet Beethoven, but really any Hungarian quartet can work wonders with this music.


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## HerbertNorman

Allegro Con Brio said:


> The late quartets are some of my favorite art to ever be produced- not just music, but art in general. Really a pinnacle of humanity's achievements if you ask me. The classic not-to-be-missed set is the Busch Quartet. Far from perfect playing and sound quality but they burrow into the soul of this music like few others. My next favorite is the Juilliard, which often gets underrated. Wonderfully creative and refreshing performances. I would also recommend the Lindsays, Takacs, Italiano, and Wihan- all very different and equally valid. The Alban Berg Quartett's set of the late quartets often gets high plaudits, but I find them far too tame and safe in this supremely adventurous music.


I listened to the Busch and I was quite impressed! Thanks for that . I have a copy of the DG CD with the Hagen Quartet playing the last three quartets. Very good, but listening to this very old recording gave it some sort of grandeur, greatness...


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## Kjetil Heggelund

I had a new idea for listening to Beethoven after hearing op. 97 & 96, in that order. To me they share a similar feeling, both serious and maybe light-hearted at the same time. So, I decided to hear the opus numbers from 90-100 and suddenly read that they are not in chronological order. The famous pianotrio was written before the famous violin sonata, which was written the same year as the famous 8th symphony (op.93). Guess I have to read something...


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## KenOC

Kjetil Heggelund said:


> I had a new idea for listening to Beethoven after hearing op. 97 & 96, in that order. To me they share a similar feeling, both serious and maybe light-hearted at the same time. So, I decided to hear the opus numbers from 90-100 and suddenly read that they are not in chronological order. The famous pianotrio was written before the famous violin sonata, which was written the same year as the famous 8th symphony (op.93). Guess I have to read something...


*Here's* a good page for sorting out Beethoven's work by year written. first performed, etc.


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## Blancrocher

Interesting review essay in the New York Review of Books concerning recently published "conversation books" that Beethoven kept in his deafness--blank books in which interlocutors wrote, after which he would reply orally. First volumes in a projected complete English edition.


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## MarkW

In the '70s I listened to a lot of complete quartet sets, and picked out individual performances that did the best by me. Late ones that still "work":

Opus 127 -- Yale
Opus 130 and 133 -- Italiano (early 70s on Philips)
Opus 131 -- Budapest (also VPO strings under Bernstein)
Opus 132 -- Yale
Opus 135 -- Guarneri

Odd movement: Opus 131 penultimate movement: Amadeus (Norbert Brainen plays the "beklempt" passage as if he had a broken arm and it's surprisingly effective).

Also Yale and Guarneri both bring out the humor in 131 wonderfully (I'm of the opinion that that most profound of quartets demonstrates more than any other piece Beethoven's command of comic relief.)

cheers


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## NightHawk

BuddhaBandit said:


> The 7th is great. It sounds like one large dance- all the rhythms have a certain levity and sweep to them. Gotta love that first movement theme.


Wagner is often quoted as saying of B's 7th Sym, "It is the apotheosis of the dance"


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## SixFootScowl

NightHawk said:


> Wagner is often quoted as saying of B's 7th Sym, "It is the apotheosis of the dance"


What kind of dance? I am not fond of dance, so maybe that is why I am not a fan of LvB's 7th.


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## Ekim the Insubordinate

Beethoven is evergreen for me. I have so many favorites. Usually, on any given day, my favorite is usually whatever I have most recently heard. But frequently at the top are the Missa Solemnis, the Grosse Fuge, the 3rd, 6th, 7th and 9th symphonies, and the 4th and 5th piano concertos, and the violin concerto, and . . . .


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## thejewk

In the last week I acquired the Jeno Jando set of Beethoven's Piano Sonatas, and also the Alban Berg Quartett's cycle of quartets on EMI. I think I'm going to be busy for quite some time.


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## thejewk

The Chamber Music Society of Lincoln Centre is currently streaming for free a long program of Beethoven music with some talks in between, if anyone's interested. 

One of the Op 9 Trios has just finished, Op 20 just starting.


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## ORigel

As it is his birthday, I'm going to mention my favorite pieces:

1. String Quartet no. 13
I love movements 1, 3, and the Grosse Fuge the most. The Grosse Fuge is what got me into chamber music. However, I prefer it as a standalone work.

2. String Quartet no. 14 is more coesive than no. 13. Movement 6 is probably my favorite.

3. String Quartet no. 15-- my favorite part is the trio section of the second movement.

4. String Quartet no. 12-- the first and second movements are my favorites.

5. Symphony no. 9-- my favorite symphony. I love the fugue in the development section of the first movement!

6. String Quartet no. 16-- the finale is my favorite part.

7. Piano Sonata no. 30-- the variations movement.

8. Piano Sonata no. 32-- I love both movements.

9. Missa Solemnis-- I had some trouble appreciating the Kyrie, but when I got past that, I realized its value.

10. Piano Sonata no. 29-- The slow movement


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## starthrower




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## Blancrocher

Jonathan Biss recently published "Unquiet: My Life with Beethoven" on Audible (it's part of the Plus Catalogue, so it's free to stream for subscribers). I haven't listened to it yet, but I intend to do so before too long.


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## hammeredklavier

> L. Beethoven


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## GrosseFugue

DavidA said:


> Karajan is far better here as Klemperer's leaden tempi kill the drama in spite of Ludwig's Leonora


Have you tried Klemp's LIVE version from Covent Garden? The singing is generally better, the tempi slightly faster but it's the sheer voltage and ardor that makes the difference. Yes, it's mono, but the electricity comes through. I still like the stereo version, but this one may have ruined all other Fidelios for me. Worth hearing at least once in your lifetime.


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## whispering

Dear Mr Beethoven I have recently reactivated myself on this forum after a tough period in my life. I stumbled on this part by chance and I am just saying a few well earned thank yous. The biggest one goes to you. I can still fondly remember my first hearing your Emperor piano concerto. That started a dream journey for a younger me. The other four piano concertos, the amazing string quartets and string trios followed on. You led me into the world of symphonies, the violin concerto was one of those pinch moments on first hearing it. Do not get me started on the piano sonatas, the piano quartets, piano trios, etc. From the bottom of my heart thank you for giving me a life time of pleasure. I must confess there are other composers in my life, I have not been totally loyal to the Beethoven movement, but I always come back and ask for more. IMHO the greatest composer to my ears. Thank you again for bringing so much joy and moments of reflection into my life.


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## OCEANE

whispering said:


> Dear Mr Beethoven I have recently reactivated myself on this forum after a tough period in my life. I stumbled on this part by chance and I am just saying a few well earned thank yous. The biggest one goes to you. I can still fondly remember my first hearing your Emperor piano concerto. That started a dream journey for a younger me. The other four piano concertos, the amazing string quartets and string trios followed on. You led me into the world of symphonies, the violin concerto was one of those pinch moments on first hearing it. Do not get me started on the piano sonatas, the piano quartets, piano trios, etc. From the bottom of my heart thank you for giving me a life time of pleasure. I must confess there are other composers in my life, I have not been totally loyal to the Beethoven movement, but I always come back and ask for more. IMHO the greatest composer to my ears. Thank you again for bringing so much joy and moments of reflection into my life.


We all somewhere and sometime have this feeling to one or the other composers..


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## Wigmar

Rondo said:


> This new forum section has shown to be a pretty good idea. I guess I'll contribute by adding a classic, one of the "Three B's": Beethoven.
> For a while my exposure had mainly been limited to his symphonies, sonatas and concertos. After that, I discovered just how much more there really is out there.
> 
> Outside of the "main" repertoire (symphonies, concertos and sonatas), some favorites include:
> 
> Choral Fantasy in C minor
> _The Consecration of the House
> Egmont
> The Ruins of Athens
> Wellington's Victory_ (hard to ignore)
> _Fidelio_/ _Leonore_
> and _Coriolan_


Wonderful Beethoven in Razumovsky string quartet op 59:1, and as well many of the piano sonatas, as e.g. nos
3 op 2:3
8 op 13 
14 op 27:2 
15 op 28
20 op 49:2
23 op 57
25 op 79
27 op 90
And Lieder:
'Zärtliche Liebe' WoO 123
'Adelaide' op 46
All of these works I treasure very much 🎼


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## Thelonious 58

opus67 said:


> I haven't heard it yet.
> 
> 
> 
> Were we?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The 7th's just wonderful! I agree with BB about the dance-like rythms, especially in the final two movements. I've said this before: Kleiber does wonderful things in those last movements in the recording that's paired with the 5th. And the second movement reminds me of the funeral march from the _Eroica_.


And so does Toscanini in his wonderful 1936 New York recording. If you love this symphony, you owe it to yourself to listen to this recording, it's on YouTube


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