# In Praise of John Cage



## SeptimalTritone

John Cage is unfortunately too often made fun of or neglected... and this is a huge mistake. He wrote some powerfully meditative music. His sensitivity towards musical timbre, his integration of pitched and unpitched sounds, his narrative medium of chance... Here are some outstanding works that are some of my favorites of the repertoire of the music of the second half of the 20th century:

Sonatas and Interludes for Prepared Piano 



Concerto for Prepared Piano and Chamber Orchestra 



Concert for Piano and Orchestra 



Imaginary Landscapes 



44 Harmonies from Apartment House - 1776 



Cartridge Music 



Branches 



Bird Cage 



Quartets I-VIII 



Variations II 



Roaratorio 



Four 



Seven2 



Fifty-Eight 




So meditative and invigorating...

Here's a nice quote that summarizes his artistic vision:

"What is the purpose of writing music? One is, of course, not dealing with purposes but dealing with sounds. Or the answer must take the form of a paradox: a purposeful purposeless or a purposeless play. This play, however, is an affirmation of life--not an attempt to bring order out of chaos nor to suggest improvements in creation, but simply a way of waking up to the very life we're living, which is so excellent once one gets one's mind and one's desires out of its way and lets it act of its own accord."


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde

Unfortunately the music of John Cage that I _have_ heard based on recommendations have all been a bit twee.....I'm going to have a listen to these pieces though to see if I change my mind about him!


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## MoonlightSonata

I'm not generally fond of his most experimental works, but that's not the purpose of this thread.
In addition to some of the works mentioned in the OP, I find this work lovely:




It's not Cage's usual style, but worth a listen.
The Quartets are probably my favourite of Cage's works.


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## ahammel

The String Quartet in Four Parts is excellent.


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## tdc

I agree with Cage's view of himself that he was strongest in percussion composition. His percussion works are my favorite - I also really enjoy some of his stranger things like his music for amplified cacti and his Cartridge Music. Those are the pieces that for me feel the most "zen" and capture the essence of Cage.

I'm not crazy about some of the titles he gave his pieces like _In a Landscape_ or the individual titles he gives to the movements in his _String Quartet in 4 Parts_. I think titles like this (for me) generally detract from a piece and I'd rather he left them out.


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde

Okay I just found this on Spotify and now I truly think I'll get into him more.



ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> Wow. Having only really heard John Cage's pieces like In a Landscape I've always thought of him as a bit twee, or a bit saccharine for me. This music has me absolutely convinced that I ought to explore his music MUCH more! I highly recommend this!!!!!


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## brotagonist

Sonatas and Interludes for Prepared Piano is a classic... and Book of Changes, a sad victim of my infamous mid-'90s purge  I'd definitely consider both to be listenable :lol: and they are good music, too  Cage is definitely on my _one of these days_ list  (take that how you wish; I'm not sure, either  ).


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## aleazk

Once you 'get' Cage, he delivers something quite unique. My favorites tend to be his late _Number Pieces_. They have an evident 'zen' quality which, as ST said, I too find invigorating (most of Cage's music has this quality, though). Somehow they 'clean' my mind and 'soul' from the superfluous. Adding to the ones mentioned by ST: Four4; Five; Fourteen.

Some of the pieces from his first period are perhaps more accessible in a more traditional sense: Six Melodies; Second Construction; Third Construction


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## Guest

I love the piano concertos, the prepared piano music, the string quartets, the star map stuff (the Etudes Australes is somewhat an exception...good but there's just so much of the same thing...the other etude sets and the Atlas Eclipticalis are more invigorating), and the higher number pieces (say, 58 and higher or so?). And of course a few of the other random pieces that don't fit in those categories...some I've tried and love include Ryoanji, Quartets I-VIII, In A Landscape, The Seasons, Music Of Changes, Some Of The Harmonies Of Maine...

I haven't made up my mind yet on wacky stuff like the Roaratorio. And I haven't listened to a lot of acclaimed stuff, including Cartridge Music, Imaginary Landscapes, ...

But, simply put, Cage, like Stockhausen and others, was too diverse a composer to be easily dismissed; thus an eyebrow is raised to the heavens when certain people do so without a moment's hesitation.


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## tdc

aleazk said:


> Once you 'get' Cage, he delivers something quite unique. My favorites tend to be his late _Number Pieces_. They have an evident 'zen' quality which, as ST said, I too find invigorating (most of Cage's music has this quality, though). Somehow they 'clean' my mind and 'soul' from the superfluous. Adding to the ones mentioned by ST: Four4; Five; Fourteen.
> 
> Some of the pieces from his first period are perhaps more accessible in a more traditional sense: Six Melodies; Second Construction; Third Construction


I generally love the examples you post of Cage's work, but can't say I find the same "zen" quality in a lot of the more popular works like the _Sonatas and Interludes for Prepared Piano_ or _In a Landscape_.


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## KenOC

A "Zen quality" is a contradiction in terms.


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## arpeggio

*Cage is a ...*

The irony is that I am not a big fan of Cage. As a result of all of the silly attacks against him I actually discovered some his music that I now really enjoy.

I just discovered some new recommendations.


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## tdc

KenOC said:


> A "Zen quality" is a contradiction in terms.


_The truth appeareth paradox_.

- *Lao Tzu*


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## Richannes Wrahms

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> Unfortunately the music of John Cage that I _have_ heard based on recommendations have all been a bit twee.....I'm going to have a listen to these pieces though to see if I change my mind about him!


I've had a similar experience, it all seems more interesting to read about than listening. Zen is late Mahler, Webern and some of Stockhausen. Cage sounds too Copeland-pastoral to my ears, even the 'hardcore modernist' pieces.

_*'clean'* my mind and *'soul'*_

*Ugh. *

I am disappointed.

Next stop, the mad-house.


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## Albert7

John Cage is a landmark composer and as a Buddhist, I identify with his works very much.


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## Guest

Richannes Wrahms said:


> I've had a similar experience, it all seems more interesting to read about than listening. Zen is late Mahler, Webern and some of Stockhausen. Cage sounds too Copeland-pastoral to my ears, even the 'hardcore modernist' pieces.


You recently said of Boulez that "Webern did it first", so pardon me if I don't take this one seriously either.


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## science

SeptimalTritone said:


> John Cage is unfortunately too often made fun of or neglected


Almost all of these guys have been chased away from talkclassical, so we can relax and enjoy his music without referring to the despised.


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## pianolearnerstride

I don't get John Cage at all.


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## Guest

science said:


> *Almost* all of these guys have been chased away from talkclassical, so we can relax and enjoy his music without referring to the despised.


But sadly "Almost" excludes the loudest.


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## ArtMusic

Unfortunately Cage appears to be more infamous judging by the kind of comments made about him. However, there are some pieces of music by him that are accessible and worthy of listening, naming one in particular includes this piece, _In A Landscape_ composed in 1948. I would praise him ever more if he wrote more beautiful pieces such as this.


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## Richannes Wrahms

arcaneholocaust said:


> You recently said of Boulez that "Webern did it first", so pardon me if I don't take this one seriously either.


I'm not a witch offering apples to young ladies.


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## Giordano

Chop wood carry water. 
Grin broadly.
Best Zen.


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## arpeggio

ArtMusic said:


> Unfortunately Cage appears to be more infamous judging by the kind of comments made about him. However, there are some pieces of music by him that are accessible and worthy of listening, naming one in particular includes this piece, _In A Landscape_ composed in 1948. I would praise him ever more if he wrote more beautiful pieces such as this.


It is precisely comments like this that make me want to continue to delve into the music of Cage.

I am very skeptical of the observation that all music should be nothing but pretty little melodies. So when a proponent of such an aesthetic is critical of something I become curious and have to check it out. I frequently end up liking what they are critical of.


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## science

arcaneholocaust said:


> But sadly "Almost" excludes the loudest.


Chill out. The one person you have in mind is probably the least popular person here. At this point, you're just bullying.

Let some people disagree with you. You can be happy even in an ideologically heterogeneous world.


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## science

I've never heard a work by John Cage that I didn't like, and that includes the infamous 4'33".

But I've almost never seen a post about Cage that I liked.


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## Funny

For a long time I took the perverse approach some have mentioned that if everyone was spooked by John Cage I would admire him just for having such an impact. Then I heard some of his early prepared piano pieces, which I had imagined would be long meaningless stretches of silence combined with a zing here, a thump there, but were instead like modern-day Balinese gamelan. I thought of his pieces involving radios playing as circus stunts until I attended a performance and realized that the content that Cage was delivering to me, from beyond the grave, was so up-to-date as to be from that very moment, and it made me think about music, composers and audiences in a way nothing else ever has. Not every Cage work does that for me, but again the takeaway is that it's easy to form an opinion about Cage, but the more of him you hear, especially in live performance, the more the easy, knee-jerk prejudices fall away.


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## Guest

science said:


> Let some people disagree with you.


You, too, eh? Fair's fair.

But I digress.

It is easy for me to praise John Cage. It was easy before I met him, and even easier afterwards, since he was a really lovely person.

One thing he taught me about music was that it didn't have to please me. That has opened up a very different kind of world for me. And I no longer spend a lot of time looking for what will please me. I spend way more time now on being flexible, on being willing to accept whatever it is I'm being offered at any given time.

I have spent the last ten years of my life searching out music that is unknown to me, not in order to find something I will like, but in order to experience what's there to experience.

There is lots of Cage's music that I don't like, too. Still. But that's OK. Because I know now that it's not all about me and my tastes. It's about the world, in all its diversity and all its complexity and with all its contradictions. So I don't have to like any particular piece by anyone. And I don't have to say, about any particular thing that I don't like, "I don't like that."

All I have to do is listen. It's enough.


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## SeptimalTritone

So I just listened to 4'33" for the first time.

I liked it much more than I thought I would. In fact, it would have been even better if it were 14'33". I found it oddly stimulating and alive. It brought out much more than just meditating by yourself in your own room. This is an important contribution to Cage's output.

I don't know if I would hold it in the same esteem as something like Roaratorio or Four, or La Monte Young's Theatre of Eternal Music, but I did find it very compelling. In fact, it makes me wonder why more composers haven't written super-minimalistic music, with mostly silence but a few instrumental or electronic gestures. Carried over a 20 or 30 minute period... it could potentially make something really good.


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## ahammel

SeptimalTritone said:


> In fact, it makes me wonder why more composers haven't written super-minimalistic music, with mostly silence but a few instrumental or electronic gestures.


Difficult to keep from going over the same ground over and over again?


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## SeptimalTritone

ahammel said:


> Difficult to keep from going over the same ground over and over again?


Yeah good point. It seems that these days composers are writing small/mid sized chamber works with detailed attention to gestural figures and their sonic combination, like Andrew Greenwald... this is probably the most promising direction for contemporary music. What say you?


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## ahammel

SeptimalTritone said:


> Yeah good point. It seems that these days composers are writing small/mid sized chamber works with detailed attention to gestural figures and their sonic combination, like Andrew Greenwald... this is probably the most promising direction for contemporary music. What say you?


Oh, I'm woefully uninformed as to what young composers are up to these days, unfortunately. Thanks for the Greenwald link, though!


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## isorhythm

I admit, I never understood the point of his so-called indeterminate music. It seems self-negating to me. Once he's made his choices and written them down, it's not indeterminate anymore, is it?


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## tortkis

SeptimalTritone said:


> So I just listened to 4'33" for the first time.
> 
> I liked it much more than I thought I would. In fact, it would have been even better if it were 14'33". I found it oddly stimulating and alive. It brought out much more than just meditating by yourself in your own room. This is an important contribution to Cage's output.


It is interesting to hear _4'33"_ on record instead of live. I listened to Tudor's performance on youtube, and I realized that I concentrated on the recorded ambient sounds, not the sounds in the room in which I was watching the video. I feel it is sort of missing the point of the work, but I am not sure.



> I don't know if I would hold it in the same esteem as something like Roaratorio or Four, or La Monte Young's Theatre of Eternal Music, but I did find it very compelling. In fact, it makes me wonder why more composers haven't written super-minimalistic music, with mostly silence but a few instrumental or electronic gestures. Carried over a 20 or 30 minute period... it could potentially make something really good.


The composers of Wandelweiser group are creating musics inspired by _4'33"_. Their works are mostly very quiet.

_Through the window and the wood _ of Daniel Brandes, one of the Wandelweiser composers, is an extreme case. There are 16 pieces each of which lasts exactly 10 minutes. Most of the time, there are barely any audible sounds. Only few notes are sung in each track, and they are stunningly beautiful. I do not recommend this, but you can try one or two tracks on the site below (all the tracks can be heard on stream).
https://danielbrandes.bandcamp.com/album/through-the-window-and-the-wood


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## tortkis

isorhythm said:


> I admit, I never understood the point of his so-called indeterminate music. It seems self-negating to me. Once he's made his choices and written them down, it's not indeterminate anymore, is it?


I think it is a work using chance operation. During composition, there is indeterminacy, but once it's done, yes it is no more indeterminate.
The result of an indeterminacy piece, such as one that uses radio, is always different in each performance.


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## Albert7

Quick question: is 4' 33" supposed to be total silence or ambient noises?


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## SeptimalTritone

albertfallickwang said:


> Quick question: is 4' 33" supposed to be total silence or ambient noises?


It's more about the combination of the ambient noises and the crowd's noises. The crowd's small gestures on top of the ambient sound makes for a stark personality.


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## KenOC

albertfallickwang said:


> Quick question: is 4' 33" supposed to be total silence or ambient noises?


I'd say it's as quiet as it is, and as noisy as it is.


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## Albert7

SeptimalTritone said:


> It's more about the combination of the ambient noises and the crowd's noises. The crowd's small gestures on top of the ambient sound makes for a stark personality.


Cool thanks for answering. I really enjoy the unique qualities of this piece.


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## Guest

It's not so much that Cage's _4'33"_ is or is not better than any other piece by Cage (or by anyone else), but that it was really the first to do what it does.

It's a cool little piece. And it was the first, that's all.

I really love _Four,_ by the way. Well, _Four4,_ to be precise. I heard the Amadinda play this live in Ostrava. It was just about the loveliest concert I've ever been to. So we may not be speaking of the same piece.

Anyway, about indeterminacy. It refers to an idea, not to the physical reality of a printed score. And indeterminacy comes in at least two flavors (I'm not refreshing my memory in any way here. I have to do the chores, so I shouldn't even be here typing.)

Indeterminacy of composition and indeterminacy of performance.

A piece that has been constructed according to indeterminate means will be a piece like any other and will sound the same each time it is played. A piece that gives instructions that determine (!) that the performers will do different things each time they play will sound different each time it's played.

Indeterminacy is more about separating the composer from what actually happens than anything else. A way to attempt to circumvent ego. It doesn't work, not completely, but then neither does the other main device for circumventing ego: serialism.


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## Heliogabo

Works for prepared piano, specially interludes and sonatas, are landmarks for musical minimalism. Should hear that who loves minimalistic pieces, if don't know it...


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## Dim7

some guy said:


> It doesn't work, not completely, but then neither does the other main device for circumventing ego: serialism.


Why is serialism a device for "circumventing ego"?


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## Sloe

Since this is the John Cage praise thread I can say that I like his rhythmic music:

Like second construction:


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## Guest

Dim7 said:


> Why is serialism a device for "circumventing ego"?


Hey Dim7, I'm going to answer "How" more than "Why."

Because it also puts something in place, in this case a rigid system, that removes an element of compositional choice. Very roughly, it is a kind of automatic music; you plug in the numbers and out comes a result. It is a way of avoiding the emotional effusions of pre-WWI late Romanticism. And, be fair, all that Scriabin and Strauss and such is pretty decadent. I can dig it, but I totally understand the suspicion of it and the rejection of it (as Debussy had already rejected the excesses of Wagner) while still enjoying its fruits. Just as I can still enjoy listening to Barber and Britten and Shostakovich while deprecating the aesthetic choices they made.


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## Mahlerian

some guy said:


> Hey Dim7, I'm going to answer "How" more than "Why."
> 
> Because it also puts something in place, in this case a rigid system, that removes an element of compositional choice. Very roughly, it is a kind of automatic music; you plug in the numbers and out comes a result. It is a way of avoiding the emotional effusions of pre-WWI late Romanticism. And, be fair, all that Scriabin and Strauss and such is pretty decadent. I can dig it, but I totally understand the suspicion of it and the rejection of it (as Debussy had already rejected the excesses of Wagner) while still enjoying its fruits. Just as I can still enjoy listening to Barber and Britten and Shostakovich while deprecating the aesthetic choices they made.


Are we talking about so-called "total serialism" or the 12-tone method? If the latter, I don't see this at all. It is often said to be true of the 12-tone method that it is a system, where a given input supplies a given result, but the opposite is actually true. It is true that rows chosen by composers usually reflect their own personality, but given a single 12-tone row and 12 different composers, you not only have a minimum of 12 unique pieces (each displaying the characteristics of its composer), but also the potential for more than that.

Also, if it were true that there were an automatic quality to 12-tone music, then the composer's task after the row is chosen would be easier. The exact opposite, once again, is true. Traditionally tonal music has built-in guides for how to proceed with and shape a piece, whereas with non-tonal and 12-tone music, no such guide is provided and the material must be consciously shaped to form a coherent result.


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## millionrainbows

SeptimalTritone said:


> It's more about the combination of the ambient noises and the crowd's noises. The crowd's small gestures on top of the ambient sound makes for a stark personality.


4'33 is about* listening subjectively,* not specific sounds, because those sounds will be unique to each performance.

That's why a "recording" of 4'33", a performance piece which was always intended as a unique subjective experience, is a misnomer.

That means it will be different every time it is experienced. This is basically the difference between Eastern subjectivity and Western objectivity.

Unlike Western art, 4'33" does away with the "object itself" and the art becomes concerned exclusively with subjective experience. In this sense, it is "conceptual art." (see Yoko Ono)

In this sense, then, 4'33" is a sacred work, in the great Western tradition. What could be more sacred than a work which intends to bring us closer to the sacred?


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## millionrainbows

Mahlerian said:


> Are we talking about so-called "total serialism" or the 12-tone method?


Someguy is referring to the postwar serialists, notably Boulez and Stockhausen. Boulez was interested in "self-generating systems," an idea tied to French surrealism. He attempted this (by his own admission unsuccessfully) in *Structures Books I & II* for two pianos.


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## Polyphemus

millionrainbows said:


> 4'33 is about* listening subjectively,* not specific sounds, because those sounds will be unique to each performance.
> 
> That's why a "recording" of 4'33", a performance piece which was always intended as a unique subjective experience, is a misnomer.
> 
> That means it will be different every time it is experienced. This is basically the difference between Eastern subjectivity and Western objectivity.
> 
> Unlike Western art, 4'33" does away with the "object itself" and the art becomes concerned exclusively with subjective experience. In this sense, it is "conceptual art." (see Yoko Ono)
> 
> In this sense, then, 4'33" is a sacred work, in the great Western tradition. What could be more sacred than a work which intends to bring us closer to the sacred?


Thanks for that I was always under the mistaken belief that 4'33" was classical music for deaf people and if Cage ever got performance royalties for it he must have howled with laughter.


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## millionrainbows

Polyphemus said:


> Thanks for that I was always under the mistaken belief that 4'33" was classical music for deaf people and *if Cage ever got performance royalties for it he must have howled with laughter.*


Well, the piece is published (UE) and Cage does get royalities, and it is protected under copyright. *Cage took the piece seriously, as should we.*


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## millionrainbows

Ok, my turn! For a long time, my favorite was *Fontana Mix,* on a Vox/Turnabout vinyl LP record. Finally, it came out on CD:

















But now, the early 1950s music for piano (unprepared) is my favorite. I suggest the Boulez/Cage Piano music CD on HatArt:








and this series:









I like this music very much. I place it in the same category as Boulez' piano sonatas, and Messiaen's early secular piano works, on this CD:










There is a certain sense of "moment time" in this piano music; notes are seen as "events" in isolation, and there is a sense of timelessness, verticality without forward movement, and of being "in the moment."


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## arpeggio

*Ultimate Audience Music*

Some members like to extol on an on about the virtues of the audience.

I have always considered _4'33"_ the ultimate audience piece. Cage not only eliminated the ego of the composer but also the performer.


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## DavidA

arpeggio said:


> Some members like to extol on an on about the virtues of the audience.
> 
> I have always considered _4'33"_ the ultimate audience piece. Cage not only eliminated the ego of the composer but also the performer.


Please don't call 4'33' a 'piece'. It is not a piece of music as there is no music even by Cage's demented standards. It is an idea.


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## arpeggio

DavidA said:


> Please don't call 4'33' a 'piece'. It is not a piece of music as there is no music even by Cage's demented standards. It is an idea.


OK. Will event do?


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## Marschallin Blair

DavidA said:


> Please don't call 4'33' a 'piece'. It is not a piece of music as there is no music even by Cage's demented standards. It is an idea.


Its not a piece, merely an 'Emperor.'


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## Dim7

Marschallin Blair said:


> Its not a piece, merely an 'Emperor.'


Emperor concerto without notes?


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## Guest

An "in praise of" thread has made it all the way to page four before the "in disparagement of" stuff really gets going.

That must be some kind of record!

Kudos. :tiphat:

Of course, the animadversions themselves are pretty predictably lame, even though "demented standards" was obviously intended to be wickedly cutting.

Oh well, we made it this far, farther than I've ever seen a thread of this sort go, so that's something to be thankful for.

We had three good pages of praise and a bit over, too.


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## millionrainbows

*John Cage's 4'33" *is a period of _*sacred silence.*_

I can see how freedom of speech is important, and criticism of *music* can be tolerated; but when _*moments of sacred silence*_ are attacked,_ silences which essentially represent religious practices such as prayer, _that's religious intolerance, and could be easily construed as hate speech against religion.

To disparage *4'33",* or any such similar moments of _*sacred silence*_, is a slap in the face to all forms of prayer and religion.

As an example of a sacred silence, *4'33"* therefore is similar to, and in its own way, represents every veteran who has ever sacrificed for our country. How?

I've been told that veterans use "moments of silence" or prayer, every time they are prepared to go into battle, and also do this as they respect those who were killed. All detractors of *sacred silences* such as these, and *4'33,"* are also disrespecting our brave warriors, present and past.

I understand the importance of freedom of speech, but to me, this is crossing the line.

ALL forms of religion, prayer, and sacred silence should be respected, and this includes 4'33', which is a sacred statement.

As a defender of sacred silences, I ask that* 4'33" *be respected as a form of sacred religious practice, as *John Cage* intended it.


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## millionrainbows

DavidA said:


> Please don't call 4'33' a 'piece'. It is not a piece of music as there is no music even by Cage's demented standards. It is an idea.


It's a "piece" as the term is used in conceptual art.


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## KenOC

I'm sure the OP is just stirring the pot here. He claims that 4'33" is "sacred," probably remembering (as he has told us) that Cage was a Zen Buddhist. But Zen folks are hardly fans of the sacred. Certainly the OP knows that famous old Zen saying: "If you meet the Buddha on the road, kill him."


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## SeptimalTritone

arpeggio said:


> Some members like to extol on an on about the virtues of the audience.
> 
> I have always considered _4'33"_ the ultimate audience piece. Cage not only eliminated the ego of the composer but also the performer.


Yeah, it's an audience piece. That's a great way of putting it! The combination of the ambient noise and the audience's personality... it sweeps your mind like a laser.

It definitely is a piece of music. If musique concrete uses the tools of sine waves, white noise, recorded natural sounds, recordings of recordings... then 4'33" isn't too far different from something like Bird Cage or Roaratorio. Just think of 4'33" as a more intense, visceral, and pithier version of those works.

As for as Zen meditation goes, I've had my personal struggles with Buddhism... but that's a topic for the religious discussion group. I just want to say to Ken that a good piece of music (like 4'33", or Cage's other works, or Xenakis, or Beethoven) can take one to a visceral experience of the present moment. If one just enjoys this for what it is, rather than worrying about 'reaching' the Buddha, then it's a beautiful thing. I think that doing certain things as religious practice, like sitting zazen meditation, or chanting, or listening to music... without worrying about 'reaching' the Buddha is what people meant by 'kill the Buddha'. Buddhists do certain things as spiritual practice with the goal of taking one to the present moment, and from there all of life gradually becomes a more present experience.


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## Blancrocher

I'm not sure if it's been mentioned in this thread, but Rzewski (like many other composers) has written a piece in praise of John Cage. "A Life" adopts certain elements of his style, and is clearly a sincere homage:






I'll assume from the timing that he liked 4'33'' as well!


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## Guest

Well, 4'33" may indeed be an idea, but if it is, it's the only idea you can walk into a music store and buy. Not a grocery store or a clothing store or a shoe store. Not a jewelry store or a computer store or an idea store.

A music store.

If you do buy it, you will see that it was published over sixty years ago by a music publisher. A major music publisher, founded in 1800. The only idea published as a musical score? Well, not exactly. Every other piece of music is equally an idea. Or several ideas. Funny thing about ideas. Bridges started out as ideas. Refrigerators started out as ideas. Some ideas, like truth and beauty, remain as ideas. And without being demoted either. Without being thought as less than the ideas that ended up as refrigerators. Indeed, we may value the truth and beauty type of ideas even more. Some of us actually do. What chumps we are, eh?

So DavidA and Blair and KenOC, for instance, say that 4'33" is not a piece of music, in spite of Edition Peters printing it up nicely and putting it into music stores for people to buy. And some guy and SeptimalTritone and million, for instance say that it is a piece of music. I've seen it performed several times, including a couple I organized myself. Cellist Madeleine Shapiro starts her concerts with 4'33", seeing it as a way to focus attention and create the right atmosphere for the rest of the show.

The question remaining is "who gets to decide?" Or, maybe it's this, "whose decision gets to count, gets to be the 'right' decision?"

On what basis can we decide who gets to decide?

And if the nots get to decide, do they write to Edition Peters to remove _4'33"_ from their catalogue? I wonder how _that_ scenario would play out....


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## Rapide

Cage was nothing more than a "used-car salesman" of music. Full of gimmicks to try to get his product sold. Silence, cactus, bird's feather, water, radio; you name it, he had in stashed away in his bag of tricks. He did nothing to promote classical music in the fifties but degenerated into an infamous and vacuous pool. That's why we are toying with his novelty even today, even in internet boards like this. Sad.


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## Guest

Yeah. How did that prestigious publishing company get conned into printing all those scores?

How did all those musicians get conned into playing Cage's music or being influenced by it?

Truly sad.

Btw, what does the "that" in your post refer to? I can't find the referent anywhere.

We are toying with his novelty even today because music degenerated into an infamous and vacuous pool in the 50s? No. That can't be right.

We are toying with his novelty even today because he did nothing to promote music in the 50s? No. That doesn't seem to work, either.

Because he was a "used car salesman"? Because he was full of gimmicks? Because he had things stashed away in a bag?

None of those things seems to account for why we toy with his novelty even today, even on internet boards like this.

It's sad. No referent for that that.


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## Marschallin Blair

Rapide said:


> Cage was nothing more than a "used-car salesman" of music. Full of gimmicks to try to get his product sold. Silence, cactus, bird's feather, water, radio; you name it, he had in stashed away in his bag of tricks. He did nothing to promote classical music in the fifties but degenerated into an infamous and vacuous pool. That's why we are toying with his novelty even today, even in internet boards like this. Sad.


He did in all fairness write actual music as well; but 'yes,' as far as what Cage is _remembered_ for, his 'legacy,' if I may call it such, is very largely gimmickry and hokum.


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## Guest

Well, there you are then.

Gimmickry and hokum.

Now very sweetly and very calmly and very reasonably tell us why you have this opinion. 

I know it matters not that hundreds of professional musicians and professional writers about music all over the world, that thousands of listeners have listened and come to different conclusions.

But it should matter that you've left your assertion unsupported. 

That's a very popular thing these days, it seems.

And requests for support seem to be quite universally resented.

Well, OK, then. Here's my own unsupported assertion, which I expect that everyone else who offers only unsupported assertions will admire and respect and adopt as their own: Cage was a brilliant composer, the most important composer of the twentieth century, whose ideas about music have changed the world forever, whose music is engaging and influential and will continue to be performed and enjoyed for centuries.

I do not expect to be asked to defend that assertion. It stands on its own. It's self-justifying. It's obviously true. There's no argument. I have spoken.

:devil:


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## tortkis

In praise of John Cage, I listened to _One Gate, One Hundred Paths, One Arrival (for John Cage)_, a work composed by David D. McIntire to mark Cage's 100th birthday.










http://recordings.irritablehedgehog.com/album/one-gate-one-hundred-paths-one-arrival-for-john-cage-2
_"[...] it is unthinkable that I could (or would) have composed such a work had I not encountered his music and read his books. For myself, and for so many of my colleagues, Cage's great gift was to refocus compositional activity on the act of listening, of engaging with sound, and he then set an example of exploring that terrain joyfully."_


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## Woodduck

millionrainbows said:


> *John Cage's 4'33" *is a period of _*sacred silence.*_
> 
> I can see how freedom of speech is important, and criticism of *music* can be tolerated; but when _*moments of sacred silence*_ are attacked,_ silences which essentially represent religious practices such as prayer, _that's religious intolerance, and could be easily construed as hate speech against religion.
> 
> To disparage *4'33",* or any such similar moments of _*sacred silence*_, is a slap in the face to all forms of prayer and religion.
> 
> As an example of a sacred silence, *4'33"* therefore is similar to, and in its own way, represents every veteran who has ever sacrificed for our country. How?
> 
> I've been told that veterans use "moments of silence" or prayer, every time they are prepared to go into battle, and also do this as they respect those who were killed. All detractors of *sacred silences* such as these, and *4'33,"* are also disrespecting our brave warriors, present and past.
> 
> I understand the importance of freedom of speech, but to me, this is crossing the line.
> 
> ALL forms of religion, prayer, and sacred silence should be respected, and this includes 4'33', which is a sacred statement.
> 
> As a defender of sacred silences, I ask that* 4'33" *be respected as a form of sacred religious practice, as *John Cage* intended it.


This brilliant post has succeeded in its purpose. No one has dared to break silence about it for 36 hours.

Let no one say that we are not a religious people.


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## Rapide

Cage is reduced to silence associated with this piece. Sorry Johnny C., you deserve better than this. But that's your legacy.


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## Guest

Wipe away your tears, Rapide. That's not his legacy.

That's only how he's perceived by a few people who don't know very much.

Among musicians and the listeners who follow contemporary music, his legacy is quite robust, I assure you.

That's kinda like saying George Washington's legacy is that he cut a cherry tree down when he was a kid.


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## DeepR

I've been listening to some of his music. So far I like "In A Landscape". I wonder if it is was born from an improvisation ?


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## Celloman

Well, whether you call it music or not, it deserves to be performed more often than it really is. I'm wondering, has anyone been to a concert where a John Cage piece was performed? I was fortunate enough to hear some of his prepared piano music a long time ago, but that's the only time I ever got the chance to hear him live.


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## Guest

I've been to many Cage concerts or concerts with Cage pieces on them.

At some of those I was sitting next to this guy named John Cage, too.

Good times!!

There's more opportunity to hear Cage in Europe than in the U.S., but that's true for new music generally. And even old new music. But he's performed in the U.S. pretty frequently, generally in smaller venues than symphony hall, of course. Museums, coffee shops, abandoned factories, alternative spaces of many kinds. The last time I heard _4'33"_ was in a renovated basement of a big building in Portland that had shops on the ground floor and apartments on the upper floors. That was a terrible performance. It featured a walk out in protest by one of the performers, who then went over all the same ground in a round table afterwards that has been covered over and over again here.

Perhaps one feels that if one says the same thing over and over again that that thing will become true.


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## Blancrocher

some guy said:


> I've been to many Cage concerts or concerts with Cage pieces on them.
> 
> At some of those I was sitting next to this guy named John Cage, too.
> 
> Good times!!


That's really cool. I don't suppose you have any interesting reminiscences to share? No worries if you're rather not go into details on a public forum, of course.


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## arpeggio

I saw a dance recital where the musical accompaniment was the music of Cage. Much of Cage's music was composed for his partner, the choreographer Merc Cunningham. That is why I think that many of his works are more theater than music.


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## Guest

Well, the first time I met him was when he came to L.A. with his bicentennial commission of _Renga_ with _Apartment House 1776._ My then wife and I went out to his hotel in Westwood and chatted in the lobby for awhile and then he asked "Do you like chess?" Well, that was an easy answer. Neither of us had a chess set with us, so we walked over to a little tobacconists and found a tiny travel set, took it back to the lobby, and played a couple of games.

Yes, he won both of them.

At the concert that evening, the first and to date the only time the L.A. Phil has performed Cage, I clapped so hard that I broke blood vessels in both hands. Oh, it's fun. A woman in front of us kept yelling "****! That was ****! I paid nine dollars for this ****?!!" That just encouraged me to clap harder and yell "Bravo" even louder, natch. If looks could kill....

The next day there was a review in the Times that accused the performers of looking bored at best and angry at worst. Bill Kraft, at the time the principal timpanist, responded with one of the more eloquent defenses of Cage and of new music generally that I have ever read. I carried a clipping around with me for many years. It may still be in a box somewhere in my sister's garage.

So that's the first encounter.


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## Blancrocher

Thanks for sharing, some guy--that's fascinating.


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## Guest

arpeggio said:


> I saw a dance recital where the musical accompaniment was the music of Cage. Much of Cage's music was composed for his partner, the choreographer Merc Cunningham. That is why I think that many of his works are more theater than music.


Hey arpeggio, I'm curious. Do you consider Tchaikovsky's _Sleeping Beauty_ more theater than music? Do you consider Wagner's _Tristan und Isolde_ more theater than music?

[Edit after seeing your fighting about Bax joke: We could fight about this, now!!]


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## Bulldog

millionrainbows said:


> *John Cage's 4'33" *is a period of _*sacred silence.*_
> 
> I can see how freedom of speech is important, and criticism of *music* can be tolerated; but when _*moments of sacred silence*_ are attacked,_ silences which essentially represent religious practices such as prayer, _that's religious intolerance, and could be easily construed as hate speech against religion.
> 
> To disparage *4'33",* or any such similar moments of _*sacred silence*_, is a slap in the face to all forms of prayer and religion.
> 
> As an example of a sacred silence, *4'33"* therefore is similar to, and in its own way, represents every veteran who has ever sacrificed for our country. How?
> 
> I've been told that veterans use "moments of silence" or prayer, every time they are prepared to go into battle, and also do this as they respect those who were killed. All detractors of *sacred silences* such as these, and *4'33,"* are also disrespecting our brave warriors, present and past.


You're stretching all over the place on this one. For you it might be sacred silence; for me, it's just another piece of music. Also, I think it's shameless for you to try to connect the work with soldiers who sacrifice for our respective countries.


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## arpeggio

I don't know. This is a SWAG on my part.

My oldest friend, who also met Cage, told me that he thought Cage's music was more theater than music. At the time it made sense to me. He lives in LA. When I see him this summer I will ask him why.


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## Woodduck

Bulldog said:


> You're stretching all over the place on this one. For you it might be sacred silence; for me, it's just another piece of music. Also, I think it's shameless for you to try to connect the work with soldiers who sacrifice for our respective countries.


Don't worry! Millionrainbows has a great sense of humor! It's just a joke!

Or is it...


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## Bulldog

Woodduck said:


> Don't worry! Millionrainbows has a great sense of humor! It's just a joke!
> 
> Or is it...


Well, he didn't write it as if he was joking. Of course, he can come back and tell us.


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## millionrainbows

Marschallin Blair said:


> He did in all fairness write actual music as well; but 'yes,' as far as what Cage is _remembered_ for, his 'legacy,' if I may call it such, is very largely gimmickry and hokum.


Ehh, I don't think so. The piano music he wrote in the 1950s (pre-prepared piano, normal stuff on a normal piano), *Music for Piano 1-84,* was a part of the post-war serial aesthetic, when composers were struggling to devise "self-generating" music, such as Boulez and all the Darmstadt boys. It sounds, on the surface, much like the piano sonatas of Boulez, and the early, non-religious piano music of Messiaen. That was all notated music, which was not totally indeterminate (even Boulez had non-determined sections in his sonatas).

Cage was an important part of the American/New York scene as well, a social catalyst (because he was such a friendly, sweet, open man) who introduced Boulez around to the important music people when he visited from Europe. The Cage/Boulez letters are now available in a book, which is too expensive for me right now.

So really, in light of informed opinion, your comment comes across a just an off-the-wall statement of someone who is unfamiliar with all the facts, and such comments do not bother me in the slightest.


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## Guest

Well his work is all new to this ignoramus, but I'm listening to various pieces now by Following him on Spotify and am happy to Praise John Cage.


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## Guest

Yeah. The whole praise part has taken a few hits.

Y'all do know what "praise" means, right?


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## Marschallin Blair

millionrainbows said:


> Ehh, I don't think so. The piano music he wrote in the 1950s (pre-prepared piano, normal stuff on a normal piano), *Music for Piano 1-84,* was a part of the post-war serial aesthetic, when composers were struggling to devise "self-generating" music, such as Boulez and all the Darmstadt boys. It sounds, on the surface, much like the piano sonatas of Boulez, and the early, non-religious piano music of Messiaen. That was all notated music, which was not totally indeterminate (even Boulez had non-determined sections in his sonatas).
> 
> Cage was an important part of the American/New York scene as well, a social catalyst (because he was such a friendly, sweet, open man) who introduced Boulez around to the important music people when he visited from Europe. The Cage/Boulez letters are now available in a book, which is too expensive for me right now.
> 
> So really, in light of informed opinion, your comment comes across a just an off-the-wall statement of someone who is unfamiliar with all the facts, and such comments do not bother me in the slightest.


Far be it from the irritating Prom Queen to get in the way of tony and _informed_ opinion, but respectfully: When the average, modal,_ everyday person _thinks of "John Cage"- and not some of the musicologists at TC- they think of "4'33" and not some of his musical arcana.

(Incidentally, I'm listening to the Sex Pistols at full volume at work right now, and I'm feeling sardonic and invincible.)


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## SeptimalTritone

Sure, but the average, modal, _everyday person_ thinks of Mozart as "relaxing".


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## Woodduck

SeptimalTritone said:


> Sure, but the average, modal, _everyday person_ thinks of Mozart as "relaxing".


But not as relaxing as... you know what. :angel:


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## Mandryka

Marschallin Blair said:


> He did in all fairness write actual music as well; but 'yes,' as far as what Cage is _remembered_ for, his 'legacy,' if I may call it such, is very largely gimmickry and hokum.


It's that use of the passive voice, "is remembered" which confers an air of authority, objectivity, distance, on the post above.

I suppose Beethoven "is remembered" for the opening bars of the 5th symphony and Fur Elise.

Anyway, lots of people I know remember Cage for the piano etudes, for the quartets, the organ music. So I don't know about "is remembered"


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## Mandryka

Bulldog said:


> You're stretching all over the place on this one. For you it might be sacred silence; for me, it's just another piece of music. Also, I think it's shameless for you to try to connect the work with soldiers who sacrifice for our respective countries.


I don't uderstand why you're getting your knickers in a twist. Do you think the link to soldiers is disrespectful to someone? Cage was trying to use music for spiritual things, and the link between his music and silence in prayer seems apt.


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## KenOC

SeptimalTritone said:


> Sure, but the average, modal, _everyday person_ thinks of Mozart as "relaxing".


Oh dear, I'd hate to be thought of as an _everyday person_. But in fact I do find a lot of Mozart relaxing. I guess there's just no escaping inferiority, gotta live with it.


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## Woodduck

_Sure, but the average, modal, everyday person thinks of Mozart as "relaxing"._



KenOC said:


> Oh dear, I'd hate to be thought of as an _everyday person_. But in fact I do find a lot of Mozart relaxing. I guess there's just no escaping inferiority, gotta live with it.


Well if you can settle for being average, modal (no, not modal too!), and everyday - suit yourself. Me? Mozart makes me curse, spit, cut my forearms, throw rocks at the neighbor's stupid-looking dachshund, and post long dissertations on the difference between music and noise that annoy the hell out of the three people bored enough to read them.

When I need to relax I'll take that degenerate modern music every time.


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## KenOC

Woodduck said:


> Me? Mozart makes me curse, spit, cut my forearms, throw rocks at the neighbor's stupid-looking dachshund, and post long dissertations on the difference between music and noise that annoy the hell out of the three people bored enough to read them.


Heck, I do all that without Mozart!


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## Woodduck

KenOC said:


> Heck, I do all that without Mozart!


Aha! So that's what being modal means!

I want to be modal. I hate Mozart.


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## Sloe

Marschallin Blair said:


> Far be it from the irritating Prom Queen to get in the way of tony and _informed_ opinion, but respectfully: When the average, modal,_ everyday person _thinks of "John Cage"- and not some of the musicologists at TC- they think of "4'33" and not some of his musical arcana.
> )


The average person does not think of John Cage at all since he and 4´33 is unknown to most people.
I think it is better that people think of Mozart as relaxing instead of disturbing.


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## Marschallin Blair

Sloe said:


> The average person does not think of John Cage at all since he and 4´33 is unknown to most people.
> I think it is better that people think of Mozart as relaxing instead of disturbing.


Thank you, Sloe for making my point all the more relevant._ ;D_


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## Guest

It's been awhile since I have seen the word "less" spelled em oh are ee.

Your point relies entirely and utterly on knowledge. Not very comprehensive or sophisticated knowledge, but knowledge, nonetheless. _Un_known is the opposite of that.

[Where are you right now? By my clock, Southern California time was six in the a.m. when you posted. I shudder to think I am in any sort of colloquy with someone who is awake and posting that early. I'm up and posting at 4 a.m. your time, but that's already safely in the lovely afternoon where I am.]


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## DeepR

DeepR said:


> I've been listening to some of his music. So far I like "In A Landscape". I wonder if it is was born from an improvisation ?


edit: nevermind... I see it's a praise only topic


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## millionrainbows

Bulldog said:


> You're stretching all over the place on this one.* For you it might be sacred silence; for me,* it's just another piece of music. * Also, I think it's shameless for you to try to connect the work with soldiers who sacrifice for our respective countries.*


So the lesson you are teaching is "if something is sacred to someone, we should respect that, unless we disagree with it." If that is what you are saying, then you have no right to complain.


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## arpeggio

I can not speak for everyone but I know that vast majority of my friends would agree with me. I have stated this many times before.

A person does not have to love Cage. If a person dislikes Cage he does not have to explain to me why.

I have never received an answer for this. If Cage is truly a bad composer what is the bottom line? That the people who like Cage are insincere, misguided elitist? That all discussions of his music should be excluded from a classical music forum? That this thread should be closed down simply because it is about Cage? At time is appears that some members of the anti-Cage crowd are trying to provoke a fight in order to close down the thread.

Also the opposite. If Cage is really a great composer does everyone have to revere him? Well the answer to that is no.

This thread is for people who like Cage. If a person dislikes Cage there are probably plenty of I hate Cage threads in this forum. If not, go start one.

I recall someone in another forum started an I hate Cage thread. There was very little hostility in it. The pro-Cage people got the message and did not show up.


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## arpeggio

I just saw an announcement for an upcoming concert on March 8, 2015 with James Levine conducting the MET Chamber Ensemble: http://www.carnegiehall.org/Calendar/2015/3/8/0500/PM/The-MET-Chamber-Ensemble/

One of the works they will be performing is Cage's _Atlas Eclipticalis_. I have the recording of Maestro Levine conducting the Chicago Symphony.


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## ST4

aleazk said:


> Once you 'get' Cage, he delivers something quite unique. My favorites tend to be his late _Number Pieces_. They have an evident 'zen' quality which, as ST said, I too find invigorating (most of Cage's music has this quality, though). Somehow they 'clean' my mind and 'soul' from the superfluous. Adding to the ones mentioned by ST: Four4; Five; Fourteen.
> 
> Some of the pieces from his first period are perhaps more accessible in a more traditional sense: Six Melodies; Second Construction; Third Construction


I completely agree but sadly the world is so over-saturated by cheap 4'33 jokes to notice otherwise


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## Varick

SeptimalTritone said:


> Here's a nice quote that summarizes his artistic vision:
> 
> "What is the purpose of writing music? One is, of course, not dealing with purposes but dealing with sounds. Or the answer must take the form of a paradox: a purposeful purposeless or a purposeless play. This play, however, is an affirmation of life--not an attempt to bring order out of chaos nor to suggest improvements in creation, but simply a way of waking up to the very life we're living, which is so excellent once one gets one's mind and one's desires out of its way and lets it act of its own accord."


I have never read more words together that stated absolutely nothing.



arpeggio said:


> Some members like to extol on an on about the virtues of the audience.
> 
> I have always considered _4'33"_ the ultimate audience piece. Cage not only eliminated the ego of the composer but also the performer.


Or did he play perfectly to his own ego more so than any other composer????



some guy said:


> Well, 4'33" may indeed be an idea, but if it is, it's the only idea you can walk into a music store and buy. Not a grocery store or a clothing store or a shoe store. Not a jewelry store or a computer store or an idea store.
> 
> A music store.
> 
> If you do buy it, you will see that it was published over sixty years ago by a music publisher. A major music publisher, founded in 1800. The only idea published as a musical score? Well, not exactly. Every other piece of music is equally an idea. Or several ideas. Funny thing about ideas. Bridges started out as ideas. Refrigerators started out as ideas. Some ideas, like truth and beauty, remain as ideas. And without being demoted either. Without being thought as less than the ideas that ended up as refrigerators. Indeed, we may value the truth and beauty type of ideas even more. Some of us actually do. What chumps we are, eh?
> 
> So DavidA and Blair and KenOC, for instance, say that 4'33" is not a piece of music, in spite of Edition Peters printing it up nicely and putting it into music stores for people to buy. And some guy and SeptimalTritone and million, for instance say that it is a piece of music. I've seen it performed several times, including a couple I organized myself. Cellist Madeleine Shapiro starts her concerts with 4'33", seeing it as a way to focus attention and create the right atmosphere for the rest of the show.
> 
> The question remaining is "who gets to decide?" Or, maybe it's this, "whose decision gets to count, gets to be the 'right' decision?"
> 
> On what basis can we decide who gets to decide?
> 
> And if the nots get to decide, do they write to Edition Peters to remove _4'33"_ from their catalogue? I wonder how _that_ scenario would play out....


The audience gets to ultimately decide. Which is why, as another poster stated, his music is rarely played in large halls, but rather smaller venues down to coffee shops. The audience decides, and they have decided.



arpeggio said:


> I can not speak for everyone but I know that vast majority of my friends would agree with me. I have stated this many times before.
> 
> A person does not have to love Cage. If a person dislikes Cage he does not have to explain to me why.
> 
> I have never received an answer for this. If Cage is truly a bad composer what is the bottom line? That the people who like Cage are insincere, misguided elitist? That all discussions of his music should be excluded from a classical music forum? That this thread should be closed down simply because it is about Cage? At time is appears that some members of the anti-Cage crowd are trying to provoke a fight in order to close down the thread.
> 
> Also the opposite. If Cage is really a great composer does everyone have to revere him? Well the answer to that is no.
> 
> This thread is for people who like Cage. If a person dislikes Cage there are probably plenty of I hate Cage threads in this forum. If not, go start one.
> 
> I recall someone in another forum started an I hate Cage thread. There was very little hostility in it. The pro-Cage people got the message and did not show up.


It's a very nice way to ask people who don't like Cage to NOT post on this thread or other "Praising Cage" threads, but this is a board who's members are constantly posting their views, ideas, opinions (especially opinions), thoughts, etc and should be free to do so.

I couldn't even begin to understand how anyone could not love J.S. Bach, but alas, there are those here that do not. They post and so be it. The fact that I find most of Cage's works to be elitist, pretentious nonsense is my opinion. I do believe art can be defined and should be defined and John Cage's works on the whole do not fit that definition. It does not however, reflect on the wonderfulness or lack thereof of anyone who likes or loves his work.

V


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## isorhythm

Varick said:


> I have never read more words together that stated absolutely nothing.


No, they're pretty clear and straightforward. Not sure why you're having trouble.


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## Varick

isorhythm said:


> No, they're pretty clear and straightforward. Not sure why you're having trouble.


I'm not having any trouble. It is a loquacious way of saying nothing meaningful.

V


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## hpowders

ST4 said:


> I completely agree but sadly the world is so over-saturated by cheap 4'33 jokes to notice otherwise


Imagine you go for your yearly physical and the MD says "Mr. TC Poster, sit down. You only have 4'33" to live".

Would most TC poster see the irony here or would they simply stare blankly into space?


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## Bettina

hpowders said:


> Imagine you go for your yearly physical and the MD says "Mr. TC Poster, sit down. You only have 4'33" to live".
> 
> Would most TC poster see the irony here or would they simply stare blankly into space?


I would say "can I listen to Cage's ASLSP as an encore piece?" ASLSP stands for As Slow as Possible. The piece lasts for 639 years. The performer is supposed to play approximately one chord a year. Yes, this is an actual piece by Cage--I promise I'm not kidding!


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## hpowders

Bettina said:


> I would say "can I listen to Cage's ASLSP as an encore piece?" ASLSP stands for As Slow as Possible. The piece lasts for 639 years. The performer is supposed to play approximately one chord a year. Yes, this is an actual piece by Cage--I promise I'm not kidding!


Only elephants with their long life spans can relate to that.

"Sit down Dumbo. Bad news. You have only 237 years to live. Please get your affairs in order."


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## SuperTonic

Bettina said:


> I would say "can I listen to Cage's ASLSP as an encore piece?" ASLSP stands for As Slow as Possible. The piece lasts for 639 years. The performer is supposed to play approximately one chord a year. Yes, this is an actual piece by Cage--I promise I'm not kidding!


Cage doesn't actually specify a length of time for the work. It can take as long as the performer wants it to. According to Wiki, the average performance lasts between 20 and 70 minutes.
There is an ongoing performance of the work that is supposed to last 639 years at St. Burchardi church in Halberstadt, Germany, but that is not typical of the piece.


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## Bettina

SuperTonic said:


> Cage doesn't actually specify a length of time for the work. It can take as long as the performer wants it to. According to Wiki, the average performance lasts between 20 and 70 minutes.
> There is an ongoing performance of the work that is supposed to last 639 years at St. Burchardi church in Halberstadt, Germany, but that is not typical of the piece.


Thanks for the correction. It did seem uncharacteristic of Cage to give a specific length for the piece! Thanks for explaining that he actually left that up to the performer.


----------

