# Developing Chest Voice in the Female Voice (In Response to ScottK)



## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

As requested, we'll start with a simple video from General Radames's youtube channel that goes over some of the basics of what well-produced female chest voice should sound like.






from the video description:
"Chest voice or Voce di Petto is a term used in relation to the muscular function of the larynx and should not be connected to the various concepts of resonance. It is a functional product of the larynx. i.e. it is the predominance of the thyro-arytenoid muscles of the larynx. Giving to the sound particular characteristics that differ from head voice. (True resonance is the amplification of sound. 95% of sound is resonated in the pharynx. Manipulating ones voice to receive sympathetic vibrations is not true resonance. there is no amplification of sound, just sensations."

Put another way, head voice and chest voice are not different "regions". They are different muscular groups, which influence the sound based on their respect participation. Singing predominately utilizing the chest voice must still include head voice participation to maintain flexibility and brilliance. Singing predominantly in head voice must still include chest voice participation in order to give the sound "core", fullness and an ability to cut through all the way to the back of a large music hall. While male opera singers (should) sing predominantly with the chest voice muscles, female singers gradually shift the balance toward the head voice (again, never fully losing participation from either) as they climb above the staff.


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## ScottK (Dec 23, 2021)

Can't wait to give this a listen.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Splendid. I just wish he said who the singers were. I had not heard Callas in Ritorna Vincitor before. OMFreakingG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! That was insane. That is one of the best things Traubel sang. Her chest voice is so incredible and it is seamlessly blended in with the rest of the voice. Actually one of the very very best example of chest voice is Farrell from her best pop single, Blues in the Night. At 3:30 she closes out the aria like song with a contralto low F that has lots of power but it completely syncned with the rest of her voice and has just as much chest as head resonance. She said that when you sing up high you should visualize singing low and just the opposite for low notes. She had such an enormous voice she didn't always have to use chest to be heard down low but as you can hear in this song, it was there when she wanted it




One other example of Farrell from her song Suppertime, starting around 1:30 for about a minute she stays down around middle C with gorgeous gorgeous chest singing:




I think Farrell does chest much better in pop than in opera where she can be a bit too ladylike.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Say what you will about Renee Fleming, that girl rocks the chest voice big time and she did it without seeming to compromise the health of her voice later on as she had a long career with very little twilight to her lovely high voice. I think she had one of the most beautiful and powerful chest voices I ever heard in a lyric soprano.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

One last absolutely incredible example is Flagstad in an incredible voice only version of a low passage from Walkure when Siegfried is told he must die. It starts around 8:10 and will blow your mind with the power she has down low:


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## ScottK (Dec 23, 2021)

*Put another way, head voice and chest voice are not different "regions". They are different muscular groups, which influence the sound based on their respect participation.*

With all of the problems this site has been giving I wasn't able to reply with your quote but those words above were the part I wanted to respond to.

I had a great conversation once with an ear, nose and throat doctor. I asked for an explanation of what happens...what literally happens...when a singer knows they wont make a note and chooses to force to get it. His explanation centered on muscle groups just like this explanation does.

I'm glad the video played so many good examples. I could certainly hear when it was really chest voice. And I start to see where the argument comes from(made many places I'm sure but for me, most recently made on some thread by Woodduck) that the absence of chest voice can account for the absence of individuality in voices.

Great start...hope there's more!


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## ScottK (Dec 23, 2021)

BalalaikaBoy said:


> As requested, we'll start with a simple video from General Radames's youtube channel that goes over some of the basics of what well-produced female chest voice should sound like.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Alright, the site is behaving a LITTLE better!

Question...I remember a friend, a huge Leontyne Price fan, talking about a disappointing late video of her as Aida, in particular her use of her chest voice. I thought of that as I was listening to part of this video. In all those wonderful examples of smooth darker sounds I'm starting to get the idea of chest voice and how its used well. Then I came to Ponselle -- no label but with picture and sound I'm guessing I'm right? -- and that was the first time I heard a real click...a sudden seeming jumping from one voice to the other. I was wondering if your take is that this was intentional or if, great as she was, this was one area that was not perfect?


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

ScottK said:


> Alright, the site is behaving a LITTLE better!
> 
> Question...I remember a friend, a huge Leontyne Price fan, talking about a disappointing late video of her as Aida, in particular her use of her chest voice. I thought of that as I was listening to part of this video. In all those wonderful examples of smooth darker sounds I'm starting to get the idea of chest voice and how its used well. Then I came to Ponselle -- no label but with picture and sound I'm guessing I'm right? -- and that was the first time I heard a real click...a sudden seeming jumping from one voice to the other. I was wondering if your take is that this was intentional or if, great as she was, this was one area that was not perfect?


Last minute Ponselle does CHEST


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## ScottK (Dec 23, 2021)

Seattleoperafan said:


> Splendid. I just wish he said who the singers were. I had not heard Callas in Ritorna Vincitor before. OMFreakingG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! That was insane. That is one of the best things Traubel sang. Her chest voice is so incredible and it is seamlessly blended in with the rest of the voice. Actually one of the very very best example of chest voice is Farrell from her best pop single, Blues in the Night. At 3:30 she closes out the aria like song with a contralto low F that has lots of power but it completely syncned with the rest of her voice and has just as much chest as head resonance. She said that when you sing up high you should visualize singing low and just the opposite for low notes. She had such an enormous voice she didn't always have to use chest to be heard down low but as you can hear in this song, it was there when she wanted it
> 
> 
> 
> ...


She can sing this stuff like this,so why did she sing opera?? Agree with all you said and thanks for more "chest talk". I am going to assume that technically its probably at least a little easier than with a legit technique...would that be a correct assumption?


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

ScottK said:


> She can sing this stuff like this,so why did she sing opera?? Agree with all you said and thanks for more "chest talk". I am going to assume that technically its probably at least a little easier than with a legit technique...would that be a correct assumption?


She started off with a radio show where she did both. She made more money singing opera but loved singing pop and many think she sang pop better than any opera star. She sang pop differently than Streisand or Ella in that she had her mic 6 ft from her face instead of right in front. It is the same voice but she sang pop with more abandon. She sang many pop albums in her seventies down in the contralto register. It was considered one of the biggest voices of all time.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

ScottK said:


> She can sing this stuff like this,so why did she sing opera?? Agree with all you said and thanks for more "chest talk". I am going to assume that technically its probably at least a little easier than with a legit technique...would that be a correct assumption?


Duplicate of last post for some reason.


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## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

Seattleoperafan said:


> Say what you will about Renee Fleming, that girl rocks the chest voice big time and she did it without seeming to compromise the health of her voice later on as she had a long career with very little twilight to her lovely high voice. I think she had one of the most beautiful and powerful chest voices I ever heard in a lyric soprano.


Yes, Renee Fleming has a respectable chest voice (that's saying a lot for a modern singer, credit where it is due), but imo, she doesn't carry enough chest voice participation into the upper 1/3 of her voice, causing it to talk intensity, firmness and power.

countexample: Mary Costa, a lyric soprano with an even *bigger* chest voice and more "umph!" in the voice all the way up the scale. Part of the reason I'm including her as an example is because she kept her voice limber and capable of the most feminine, lyrical, and smooth passages up until retirement (fun fact, she's still alive).






her rep goes all the way from this





to this


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

^^^Costa is glorious. A properly developed voice, flawlessly used. Where were the recording companies? Thanks for bringing her to our attention, here and elsewhere. I'm sure many remember her only as Disney's princess Aurora, who no doubt was never introduced to the Verdi requiem or the Star-spangled Banner by Flora, Fauna and Merryweather, though they seem to have taught her a bit of Tchaikovsky.


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## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

Woodduck said:


> ^^^Costa is glorious. A properly developed voice, flawlessly used. Where were the recording companies? Thanks for bringing her to our attention, here and elsewhere. I'm sure many remember her only as Disney's princess Aurora, who no doubt was never introduced to the Verdi requiem or the Star-spangled Banner by Flora, Fauna and Merryweather, though they seem to have taught her a bit of Tchaikovsky.


She's a lot like a soprano Eula Beal. Silvery clarity all the way up and down the voice, big, projecting chest voice and an upper register that always makes me think of blossoming trees (a few other sopranos have that last quality, Eleanor Steber for example).

Seriously though, I never knew why she wasn't (isn't) more famous. Apart from her Disney and operatic work, she's got great looks, an infectious personality, natural stage presence (ex: an ability to emote _believably_. I'm sorry to say that not many opera singers have mastered this).


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## ScottK (Dec 23, 2021)

BalalaikaBoy said:


> She's a lot like a soprano Eula Beal. Silvery clarity all the way up and down the voice, big, projecting chest voice and an upper register that always makes me think of blossoming trees (a few other sopranos have that last quality, Eleanor Steber for example).
> 
> *Seriously though, I never knew why she wasn't (isn't) more famous*. Apart from her Disney and operatic work, she's got great looks, an infectious personality, natural stage presence (ex: an ability to emote _believably_. I'm sorry to say that not many opera singers have mastered this).


Based on these cuts the singing and purity of sound are unassailable! Recognizability is probably a problem. The beauty is achieved from the perfection of the production and the singing. And here at least, it really is perfect.

This may be an example of the chest voice stuff that I find elusive. Had I listened out of context, I would have simply had the observations I already made. But I'm assuming she's here because you here her using her chest voice in a great way to create that great sound.

PS That Prince keeps singing like that, she might just go back to sleep!


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## Shaafee Shameem (Aug 4, 2021)

BalalaikaBoy said:


> She's a lot like a soprano Eula Beal. Silvery clarity all the way up and down the voice, big, projecting chest voice and an upper register that always makes me think of blossoming trees (a few other sopranos have that last quality, Eleanor Steber for example).
> 
> Seriously though, I never knew why she wasn't (isn't) more famous. Apart from her Disney and operatic work, she's got great looks, an infectious personality, natural stage presence (ex: an ability to emote _believably_. I'm sorry to say that not many opera singers have mastered this).


Eula Beal is a contralto, isn't she?


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## ScottK (Dec 23, 2021)

Seattleoperafan said:


> One last absolutely incredible example is Flagstad in an incredible voice only version of a low passage from Walkure when Siegfried is told he must die. It starts around 8:10 and will blow your mind with the power she has down low


I can never tell power fully from recordings...that was unaccompanied and sounded pretty much directly into a mic, however far back. But I don't doubt what you're saying at all. The fullness and color of that voice...to me, true chiaroscuro...make it easily the most beautiful of all voices that could be called large voices. And thats before talking about the power.


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## ScottK (Dec 23, 2021)

BalalaikaBoy said:


> .
> 
> countexample: Mary Costa, a lyric soprano with an even *bigger* chest voice and more "umph!" in the voice all the way up the scale.


I looked at the roles she sang and was really surprised how lyric....of course she's lyric... based on the fullness of the sound in the Verdi. I thought there would be a little more heft in some of the roles.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

ScottK said:


> I can never tell power fully from recordings...that was unaccompanied and sounded pretty much directly into a mic, however far back. But I don't doubt what you're saying at all. The fullness and color of that voice...to me, true chiaroscuro...make it easily the most beautiful of all voices that could be called large voices. And thats before talking about the power.


An interesting anecdote about Flagstad. Not only was it shockingly enormous, but they said that wherever you sat in an opera house it sounded like she was standing right in front of you singing just to you. She didn't have any physical features like Sutherland or Nilsson that obviously helped them create a huge sound, and yet she possessed a voice even bigger than their big voices.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Seattleoperafan said:


> An interesting anecdote about Flagstad. Not only was it shockingly enormous, but they said that wherever you sat in an opera house it sounded like she was standing right in front of you singing just to you. She didn't have any physical features like Sutherland or Nilsson that obviously helped them create a huge sound, and yet she possessed a voice even bigger than their big voices.


According to her, her voice grew larger after she had a baby. Hormones?


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## MAS (Apr 15, 2015)

Seattleoperafan said:


> An interesting anecdote about Flagstad. Not only was it shockingly enormous, but they said that wherever you sat in an opera house it sounded like she was standing right in front of you singing just to you. She didn't have any physical features like Sutherland or Nilsson that obviously helped them create a huge sound, and yet she possessed a voice even bigger than their big voices.


Here's the Flagstad _Todesverkündigung_ scene - my first Wagner LP. The majestic utterances are unmatched. N.B. This is late Flagstad (1957).


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## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

I think it's useful to look at very different female voices and listen for just how similar the best singers are in terms of technique, evenness and being well-developed throughout the entire voice. I know *Woodduck* fach-ing hates when I talk about this, but you know what...I don't even need to list the singer's voice types to illustrate this point.

Here we have wide range of female voices that all possess this same strong, open chest voice. There is a tendency among the more conservative opera crowd (like me) who enjoy recordings from before the 1960s to try to apply exactly the same technique and interpretation across the board, so my goal was not just to include different vocal ranges, but also to include singers with more varied vocal styles.

Saioa Hernandez 





Elvira de Hidalgo





Elena Cernei





Maria Callas


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## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

Additionally, I think it's useful to look at strong use of chest voice outside of opera. Obviously, it's not going to be exactly the same. The point is that there will be similarities, because humans from all kinds of styles, time periods and cultural backgrounds tend to be attracted to strong, natural sounding voices.

Once again, completely different types of voices, completely different music styles, but when you know what to look for, this universal attribute is clear and easy to spot in every example.

Cher (especially in the first half of her career. she got kinda woofy later on)





Mariah Carey





Pelageya 





tribal chanting from the Baka tribe of Cameroon


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## ScottK (Dec 23, 2021)

MAS said:


> Here's the Flagstad _Todesverkündigung_ scene - my first Wagner LP. The majestic utterances are unmatched. N.B. This is late Flagstad (1957).


Love this scene and she's glorious. Wonder if she ever recorded it with Melchior, I assume not. The first time I ever heard this the Brunnhilde was Berit Lindholm in, I'm pretty sure, her debut performances at the Met. And guess who she had the good fortune of looking over her shoulder to see as her Sieglinde...Birgit!


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## ScottK (Dec 23, 2021)

BalalaikaBoy said:


> I think it's useful to look at very different female voices and listen for just how similar the best singers are in terms of technique, evenness and being well-developed throughout the entire voice.


Was Hernandez able to sing like that over a long career?


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

BalalaikaBoy said:


> I think it's useful to look at very different female voices and listen for just how similar the best singers are in terms of technique, evenness and being well-developed throughout the entire voice. I know *Woodduck* fach-ing hates when I talk about this, but you know what...I don't even need to list the singer's voice types to illustrate this point.
> 
> Here we have wide range of female voices that all possess this same strong, open chest voice. There is a tendency among the more conservative opera crowd (like me) who enjoy recordings from before the 1960s to try to apply exactly the same technique and interpretation across the board, so my goal was not just to include different vocal ranges, but also to include singers with more varied vocal styles.
> 
> ...


Hard to believe anyone today can sing like Hernandez.


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## MAS (Apr 15, 2015)

ScottK said:


> Love this scene and she's glorious. Wonder if she ever recorded it with Melchior, I assume not. The first time I ever heard this the Brunnhilde was Berit Lindholm in, I'm pretty sure, her debut performances at the Met. And guess who she had the good fortune of looking over her shoulder to see as her Sieglinde...Birgit!


She did, but there might be trickery here - this guy's famous for his recording wizardry.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

MAS said:


> Here's the Flagstad _Todesverkündigung_ scene - my first Wagner LP. The majestic utterances are unmatched. N.B. This is late Flagstad (1957).


The way they end that scene is hilarious, but I guess it's the best they could do.

What I find interesting about Flagstad's voice is the _lack_ of any quality in her low voice that marks it clearly as "chest" in contrast to her upper voice. She seems not to have any registers at all. We know the relevant muscles are engaged, since without them she could never have achieved such power. She isn't unique in this evenness of scale, but it does seem remarkable in a large soprano voice.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Woodduck said:


> The way they end that scene is hilarious, but I guess it's the best they could do.
> 
> What I find interesting about Flagstad's voice is the _lack_ of any quality in her low voice that marks it clearly as "chest" in contrast to her upper voice. She seems not to have any registers at all. We know the relevant muscles are engaged, since without them she could never have achieved such power. She isn't unique in this evenness of scale, but it does seem remarkable in a large soprano voice.


Even in her early pre Wagner years she said that she had always been able to sing Schubert lieder that was all written for low voice. I totally agree with what you say and it is one of the great miracles of her voice. I have a contest with her in it for later on where you can really hear her unique power down low.


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## ScottK (Dec 23, 2021)

Woodduck said:


> *What I find interesting about Flagstad's voice is the lack of any quality in her low voice that marks it clearly as "chest" in contrast to her upper voice*. .


Now you're scaring me man!!I'll never get this chest voice thing if it can be there but be undetectable!


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## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

Woodduck said:


> The way they end that scene is hilarious, but I guess it's the best they could do.
> 
> What I find interesting about Flagstad's voice is the _lack_ of any quality in her low voice that marks it clearly as "chest" in contrast to her upper voice. She seems not to have any registers at all. We know the relevant muscles are engaged, since without them she could never have achieved such power. She isn't unique in this evenness of scale, but it does seem remarkable in a large soprano voice.


I was wondering the same thing.


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## Revitalized Classics (Oct 31, 2018)

Woodduck said:


> The way they end that scene is hilarious, but I guess it's the best they could do.
> 
> What I find interesting about Flagstad's voice is the _lack_ of any quality in her low voice that marks it clearly as "chest" in contrast to her upper voice. She seems not to have any registers at all. We know the relevant muscles are engaged, since without them she could never have achieved such power. *She isn't unique in this evenness of scale, but it does seem remarkable in a large soprano voice*.


It's an admirable characteristic: can you suggest other singers (of whichever voice-type) you admire in this regard, please?

By repute, Ebe Stignani was described as resembling Flagstad in having a seamless voice (that was mentioned in Rasponi's book on Prima Donnas).

Jon Vickers admired Giulietta Simionato in this regard: 
"At a different period in history, the point of vocal training was to smooth out the voice so that it was one voice from top to bottom [...] The greatest example of it that I ever knew in all my operatic experience was Giulietta Simionato. I think she had the most supreme seamless voice from the bottom to the top I have ever heard, and it was a joy always to sing with her. I used to tell her, "Giulietta, I love to sing with you because all night I take vocal lessons." 
Source: http://bruceduffie.com/vickers.html

Another singer that occured to me is Sigrid Onegin:


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

ScottK said:


> Now you're scaring me man!!I'll never get this chest voice thing if it can be there but be undetectable!


Scott, Flagstad was a freak LOL. One place her lack of chest robbed an aria of power was as Kundry and that Brahms song I just featured. I mentioned Farrell in examples earlier, but much of her chest singing was in popular music. Her voice, like Flagstad's, was so big she could get decent volume down low without shifting much into chest... something which robbed some of her arias of that punch that could have made the drama better. Luckily she did use lots of chest in Siegfried's final scene and in Mon Coure from Delilah's aria.


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## ScottK (Dec 23, 2021)

BalalaikaBoy said:


> I think it's useful to look at very different female voices and listen for just how similar the best singers are in terms of technique, evenness and being well-developed throughout the entire voice. I know *Woodduck* fach-ing hates when I talk about this, but you know what...I don't even need to list the singer's voice types to illustrate this point.
> 
> Here we have wide range of female voices that all possess this same strong, open chest voice. There is a tendency among the more conservative opera crowd (like me) who enjoy recordings from before the 1960s to try to apply exactly the same technique and interpretation across the board, so my goal was not just to include different vocal ranges, but also to include singers with more varied vocal styles.


First of all just wonderful voices all, they sound great! And you're right, so different, but I'm enjoying this so much, so thank you! But they do bring some attention to my dilemna of recognizing chest voice when it is and isn't present. Power house Hernandez, dark voiced Cernei make me think chest. Callas I would have been prone to attribute her tone simply to timbre...I'm curious in her case whether the chest voice plays a role in the quality of her sound or more in the thrust of her sound. And I never would have recognized a strong presence of chest voice in Hidalgo, just as I didn't in Boninsegna. I'm not doubting, I'm still looking.

Is this possible??.....somewhere in here could you post two people singing the same piece and have one be someone you find to have lots of chest voice in the sound and the other to be someone you think is missing it? Is that possible?


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## OffPitchNeb (Jun 6, 2016)

Revitalized Classics said:


> It's an admirable characteristic: can you suggest other singers (of whichever voice-type) you admire in this regard, please?
> 
> By repute, Ebe Stignani was described as resembling Flagstad in having a seamless voice (that was mentioned in Rasponi's book on Prima Donnas).
> 
> ...


I would like to hear from Woodduck as well. But when thinking about seamless (large) voice, Ponselle and Tebaldi come to my mind immediately.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

OffPitchNeb said:


> I would like to hear from Woodduck as well. But when thinking about seamless (large) voice, Ponselle and Tebaldi come to my mind immediately.


I'm having trouble thinking of other great sopranos who sound as if they have no chest register. The effect isn't the same as having seamless transitions between the registers. It's more a matter of having no notable variation in timbre as the voice goes lower. The former is a proper goal of vocal training. The latter is a personal trait that training probably can't achieve beyond a certain degree.


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## OffPitchNeb (Jun 6, 2016)

Woodduck said:


> *I'm having troiuble thinking of other great sopranos who sound as if they have no chest register. The effect isn't the same as having seamless transitions between the registers*. It's more a matter of having no notable variation in timbre as the voice goes lower. The former is a proper goal of vocal training. The latter is a personal trait that training probably can't achieve beyond a certain degree.


Got it!

What do you think about Felia Litvinne? Here is her singing a lower aria. I know dated acoustic recording makes it impossible to judge female voices, but she seems to have the quality you speak about, no?


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

OffPitchNeb said:


> Got it!
> 
> What do you think about Felia Litvinne? Here is her singing a lower aria. I know dated acoustic recording makes it impossible to judge female voices, but she seems to have the quality you speak about, no?


You're right that female voices are hard to judge on recordings of this vintage, but I do hear a change in quality when she dips into chest. What a hysterical finish, by the way!


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Woodduck said:


> I'm having trouble thinking of other great sopranos who sound as if they have no chest register. The effect isn't the same as having seamless transitions between the registers. It's more a matter of having no notable variation in timbre as the voice goes lower. The former is a proper goal of vocal training. The latter is a personal trait that training probably can't achieve beyond a certain degree.


I know a perfect example of this but I am not sure of her classification as she had a three octave range. I am thinking of Ella Fitzgerald. She sang down to the D below middle C often and her voice always had no gears at all. She sang very low often but it was like a clarinet that always kept the same exact sound no matter what part of her voice she sang in. Only Flagstad equaled her in this. They x rayed her mask and found that she had twice the sinus cavities of a normal person. She could have been a great opera singer and breath control would be the only thing she would have to alter.


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## Shaafee Shameem (Aug 4, 2021)

Seattleoperafan said:


> I know a perfect example of this but I am not sure of her classification as she had a three octave range. I am thinking of Ella Fitzgerald. She sang down to the D below middle C often and her voice always had no gears at all. She sang very low often but it was like a clarinet that always kept the same exact sound no matter what part of her voice she sang in. Only Flagstad equaled her in this. They x rayed her mask and found that she had twice the sinus cavities of a normal person. She could have been a great opera singer and breath control would be the only thing she would have to alter.


But Fitzgerald had a darker timbre. I don't think anyone had the sort of brighter, crystalline timbre that Flagstad had in the lower register.


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## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

(playback is disabled, but the link still works)


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## ScottK (Dec 23, 2021)

So I'm not sure if the Marie Powers example is an answer to one of the questions posed above but it is definitely a great example of someone very into their music and singing beautifully in their low range.....I assume chest voice. I'm getting to feel I will not develop the awareness of in and out of chest voice the way you all have, because some of your comments make it clear the difference, to you, can be very distinct. This is NOT a problem....I'm loving these sounds.

Glad to hear Menotti who I dont know at all except by reputation. Based on this piece I cant help thinking that even if his music lost an audience it none-the-less presented an approach that should not have been abandoned. I'm sure it needed to morph but not be deserted.


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## ScottK (Dec 23, 2021)

Seattleoperafan said:


> Last minute Ponselle does ]


Ponselle sounds downright freaky at the end of this piece!


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## ScottK (Dec 23, 2021)

BalalaikaBoy said:


> Additionally, I think it's useful to look at strong use of chest voice outside of opera. Obviously, it's not going to be exactly the same. The point is that there will be similarities, because humans from all kinds of styles, time periods and cultural backgrounds tend to be attracted to strong, natural sounding voices.
> 
> Once again, completely different types of voices, completely different music styles,* but when you know what to look for,* this universal attribute is clear and easy to spot in every example.


And WHEN I know what to look for, I may find it easy to spot.

Pelageya, easy...she's great, I sent the cut to my son!

Mariah and Baka tribe, not so much...guesses and hints but not so obvious

Cher sounds awesome and beautiful


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## ScottK (Dec 23, 2021)

MAS said:


> She did, but there might be trickery here - this guy's famous for his recording wizardry.


I'm not used to listening through for these tricks like you but I do know that Melchior sounds like he suddenly got alot older than Flagstad!


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## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

ScottK said:


> First of all just wonderful voices all, they sound great! And you're right, so different, but I'm enjoying this so much, so thank you! But they do bring some attention to my dilemna of recognizing chest voice when it is and isn't present. Power house Hernandez, dark voiced Cernei make me think chest. *Callas I would have been prone to attribute her tone simply to timbre...I'm curious in her case whether the chest voice plays a role in the quality of her sound or more in the thrust of her sound.* And I never would have recognized a strong presence of chest voice in Hidalgo, just as I didn't in Boninsegna. I'm not doubting, I'm still looking.


Oh Callas had a *monster* chest voice. Just listen to this clip of her singing with Sir Willard White (a bass, and a good one at that). She sings a bloody bass aria an octave up and manages to sound more powerful than he does half the time.







> Is this possible??.....somewhere in here could you post two people singing the same piece and have one be someone you find to have lots of chest voice in the sound and the other to be someone you think is missing it? Is that possible?


certainly (difference is most obvious in the last 30 second or so)

minimal use of chest voice (little bits of strained chest voice here and there, but nothin substantial)





raw, massive chest voice


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## ScottK (Dec 23, 2021)

Just got my first taste of Lise Davidsen and oh my gosh is she the real deal. Just awesome! Biggest ovation I've heard since Radvanovsky's Norma and it might have been bigger. She was absolutely stunning. And I'm mentioning it here because I am going out on a limb and declaring that I am quite confident that she had some real chest voice going on!


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## ScottK (Dec 23, 2021)

BalalaikaBoy said:


> Oh Callas had a *monster* chest voice. Just listen to this clip of her singing with Sir Willard White (a bass, and a good one at that). She sings a bloody bass aria an octave up and manages to sound more powerful than he does half the time.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


And coming here to report about Davidsen I see that you were considerate to do exactly what I asked and I got away from this thread for a bit and forgot it. I reached for my earbuds and cant find them and its too late to play it without them so I will have to wait, but thank you again and I am very eager to hear the comparison. Curious if you, or anyone who happens to be on here, has heard Davidsen.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

ScottK said:


> And coming here to report about Davidsen I see that you were considerate to do exactly what I asked and I got away from this thread for a bit and forgot it. I reached for my earbuds and cant find them and its too late to play it without them so I will have to wait, but thank you again and I am very eager to hear the comparison. Curious if you, or anyone who happens to be on here, has heard Davidsen.


Several of us have heard her. I'm less impressed than you are. What did you hear?


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## ScottK (Dec 23, 2021)

Woodduck said:


> Several of us have heard her. I'm less impressed than you are. What did you hear?


Ariadne! I thought of you at one point coming home, thinking that there was at least one from the Strauss canon that you said made a larger impression and maybe Ariadne was it. My first seeing of this Met production and I'm tempted to do that rhapsodizing! But as for her, I really believe that if you had heard her rendition of that music you would have been very impressed. Even, strong, attractive from top to bottom. Reminded me of a young Deborah Voigt.

What do you know her from?


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## Op.123 (Mar 25, 2013)

ScottK said:


> Just got my first taste of Lise Davidsen and oh my gosh is she the real deal. Just awesome! Biggest ovation I've heard since Radvanovsky's Norma and it might have been bigger. She was absolutely stunning. And I'm mentioning it here because I am going out on a limb and declaring that I am quite confident that she had some real chest voice going on!


I've seen her and find the voice beautiful sometimes, and certainly large in the upper register but lacking a real chest voice and losing focus in the lower register. Her vibrato is a little wider than I'd like but certainly not a wobble yet like some other larger voiced sopranos. That being said, for today's standards she is quite good.


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## ScottK (Dec 23, 2021)

Op.123 said:


> I've seen her and find the voice beautiful sometimes, and certainly large in the upper register but lacking a real chest voice and losing focus in the lower register. Her vibrato is a little wider than I'd like but certainly not a wobble yet like some other larger voiced sopranos. That being said, for today's standards she is quite good.


Ariadne May show her at her best. Because the voice is so much more than ample to fill it out. Don't think you would've had any trouble with her Vibrato last night. And as for the chest, that is, pardon the rhyme, my ongoing quest!


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## Op.123 (Mar 25, 2013)

ScottK said:


> Ariadne May show her at her best. Because the voice is so much more than ample to fill it out. Don't think you would've had any trouble with her Vibrato last night. And as for the chest, that is, pardon the rhyme, my ongoing quest!


Based on the clips of her singing Ariadne on the Met Opera YouTube channel she sounds pretty much as I remember. It's not that her vibrato is awful, or even bad, but it doesn't feel perfectly natural. For me, especially when it comes to dramatic sopranos, I want a good chest voice. I am sometimes puzzled when people remark on the extraordinary size of Lise Davidsen's voice because while in its upper register it is a big, dramatic voice, the effect in the lower register isn't the same and I expect I would find voices like Ponselle's, Milanov's, Tebaldi's or pre-1958 Callas's, and most definitely pre-1954 Callas, to feel much bigger in the theatre due to the more even distribution of power. Again, I like Lise Davidsen more than most modern sopranos, I will be seeing her again in May which I look forward to, but she is most decidedly not the new Flagstad.


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## ScottK (Dec 23, 2021)

Op.123 said:


> Based on the clips of her singing Ariadne on the Met Opera YouTube channel she sounds pretty much as I remember. It's not that her vibrato is awful, or even bad, but it doesn't feel perfectly natural. For me, especially when it comes to dramatic sopranos, I want a good chest voice. I am sometimes puzzled when people remark on the extraordinary size of Lise Davidsen's voice because while in its upper register it is a big, dramatic voice, the effect in the lower register isn't the same and I expect I would find voices like Ponselle's, Milanov's, Tebald's or pre-1958 Callas's, and most definitely pre-1954 Callas to feel much bigger in the theatre due to the more even distribution of power. Again, I like Lise Davidsen more than most modern sopranos, I will be seeing her again in May which I look forward to, but she is most decidedly not the new Flagstad.


Flagstad ???!! Maybe that bar can come down at least a little


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## Op.123 (Mar 25, 2013)

ScottK said:


> Flagstad ???!! Maybe that bar can come down at least a little


I said that as it is how she has been referred to in the past, not because I judge new singers on the merits of Flagstad alone.


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## ScottK (Dec 23, 2021)

Op.123 said:


> I said that as it is how she has been referred to in the past, not because I judge new singers on the merits of Flagstad alone.


. Gotcha! Any Singer who seems to have a big time voice must first make themselves one of the reigning singers of their day and hopefully maintain that position for a long period of time. From your take it sounds like you feel that she's at least off to a good start in that department.
I compared her to the young Voight. I only know them both, almost entirely, from live performance and I hold with that comparison. And to me that's pretty considerable!


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## Op.123 (Mar 25, 2013)

ScottK said:


> . Gotcha! Any Singer who seems to have a big time voice must first make themselves one of the reigning singers of their day and hopefully maintain that position for a long period of time. From your take it sounds like you feel that she's at least off to a good start in that department.
> I compared her to the young Voight. I only know them both, almost entirely, from live performance and I hold with that comparison. And to me that's pretty considerable!


She's off to a good start but all is relative. I rarely hear singers improve these days, even the 'best' usually start as acceptable (e.g. Netrebko) and slowly become atrocious. I hope Davidsen doesn't progress this way but I am not all too confident, in a few years, the vibrato could easily become a wobble if she's not careful and even if she does manage to maintain the current quality of her voice I doubt she will put real work into developing her chest voice or easing her production (less jaw shaking and a more relaxed vibrato etc.) but let's hope.


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## ScottK (Dec 23, 2021)

BalalaikaBoy said:


> Oh Callas had a *monster* chest voice. Just listen to this clip of her singing with Sir Willard White (a bass, and a good one at that). She sings a bloody bass aria an octave up and manages to sound more powerful than he does half the time.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I was not as clear on the chest voice part of this but I thought it was worth thinking about.

For Garanca I thought she made a more Santuzza-like sound than I expected, having only heard her in Rosenkavalier. It's a wider sound than I prefer, while Raisa was so focused and really wonderful. There were two clear moments I thought when Raisa made a distinct dramatic drop into her chest and if I'm getting that right I did not hear Garanca pull off the same thing.

I accidentally found myself listening to a complete Cavalleria with Garanca and stayed with about half of it. Hated Alfio, really didn't like Younghoon Lee (that probably put thoughts of Turandot this Spring to rest) but didn't dislike Garanca at all.

The thing for me is Timbre vs chest. Her timbre is pretty dark and I don't know if thats because she has chest in the sound (I'm guessing not) or just because thats the color of her voice.


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## Op.123 (Mar 25, 2013)

ScottK said:


> I was not as clear on the chest voice part of this but I thought it was worth thinking about.
> 
> For Garanca I thought she made a more Santuzza-like sound than I expected, having only heard her in Rosenkavalier. It's a wider sound than I prefer, while Raisa was so focused and really wonderful. There were two clear moments I thought when Raisa made a distinct dramatic drop into her chest and if I'm getting that right I did not hear Garanca pull off the same thing.
> 
> ...


I think the best way of explaining is just showing Lina Bruna-Rasa singing it. The chest voice is so obvious and well-developed that I can't think of a better way of helping you understand.






Go to 32:15

(This is a fairly scrappy recording of the Opera, but if any opera can cope with rough edges it's this one and I just find the energy of this performance exhilarating.)


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## ScottK (Dec 23, 2021)

BalalaikaBoy said:


> Oh Callas had a *monster* chest voice. Just listen to this clip of her singing with Sir Willard White (a bass, and a good one at that). She sings a bloody bass aria an octave up and manages to sound more powerful than he does half the time.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Went to Cassotto for the final Io Piango and great as it was, I could not detect the big time chest sound. But Giulietta seems to really have it!


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## ScottK (Dec 23, 2021)

Op.123 said:


> I think the best way of explaining is just showing Lina Bruna-Rasa singing it. The chest voice is so obvious and well-developed that I can't think of a better way of helping you understand.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I listened to half of Garanca's complete yesterday so, much as I love Cavalleria, all I listened to was Voi lo sapete. I think I can hear that she's using alot of chest, often. But of course my "I think" tells the story!

I listened to Cossotto, Stignani and Simionatto. Stignani (Great!) practically sounds like a soprano. Simionatto, here and abit of Act IV of Aida sounds like she's really using it, quite melodramatically at the end of voi lo sapete and Cossotto I assumed was but I didn't think it as pronounced.

Loving every bit of looking but I don't think it will ever register with me like you guys. And I want to emphasize that I'm quite aware that I don't have to find it...the looking is everything!


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## ScottK (Dec 23, 2021)

Op.123 said:


> Based on the clips of her singing Ariadne on the Met Opera YouTube channel she sounds pretty much as I remember. It's not that her vibrato is awful, or even bad, but it doesn't feel perfectly natural. For me, especially when it comes to dramatic sopranos, I want a good chest voice. I am sometimes puzzled when people remark on the extraordinary size of Lise Davidsen's voice because while in its upper register it is a big, dramatic voice, the effect in the lower register isn't the same and I expect I would find voices like Ponselle's, Milanov's, Tebaldi's or pre-1958 Callas's, and most definitely pre-1954 Callas, to feel much bigger in the theatre due to the more even distribution of power. Again, I like Lise Davidsen more than most modern sopranos, I will be seeing her again in May which I look forward to, but she is most decidedly not the new Flagstad.


I went and listened to the Met Youtube and had the same response I have had from many listens of modern videos on here...the orchestra is way out of proportion compared to a live performance. It's way out in front of the voice in a BIG way that does not duplicate the experience in the opera house at all. Perfect example is the tenor who obviously has zero squillo. On the video he's drowned out like mad. But in the house, despite the fact that I wanted more sound and would have loved some squillo, he none-the-less could be heard upstairs well enough. Not enough to be outstanding despite an attractive sound, but certainly enough to be not bad. On the video he's bad.

I know you guys are serious about your chest voice and I'm not getting into that here but I have to say I was all the way upstairs and the sound was nothing like on that youtube video.Chest or no, I heard her low register well. Maybe not powerful, and I get that that is important, but very present and full.


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## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

ScottK said:


> I went and listened to the Met Youtube and had the same response I have had from many listens of modern videos on here...the orchestra is way out of proportion compared to a live performance. It's way out in front of the voice in a BIG way that does not duplicate the experience in the opera house at all. Perfect example is the tenor who obviously has zero squillo. On the video he's drowned out like mad. But in the house, despite the fact that I wanted more sound and would have loved some squillo, he none-the-less could be heard upstairs well enough. Not enough to be outstanding despite an attractive sound, but certainly enough to be not bad. On the video he's bad.
> 
> I know you guys are serious about your chest voice and I'm not getting into that here but I have to say I was all the way upstairs and the sound was nothing like on that youtube video.Chest or no, I heard her low register well. Maybe not powerful, and I get that that is important, but very present and full.


That reminds me: squillo. Most modern singers attempt to create "squillo" with nasal, overly forward "mask singing", not realizing that squillo is created primarily via carrying the right amount of chest participation into the upper register.

here we have an example of spoken squillo "YOU WON'T TAKE MY CHILDREN!" 
(it's near the end. skip to around 5:46)


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## Shaafee Shameem (Aug 4, 2021)

ScottK said:


> For Garanca I thought she made a more Santuzza-like sound than I expected, having only heard her in Rosenkavalier. It's a wider sound than I prefer, while Raisa was so focused and really wonderful. There were two clear moments I thought when Raisa made a distinct dramatic drop into her chest and if I'm getting that right I did not hear Garanca pull off the same thing.


You can hear both at 2:29-2:35 and 3:19-3:28(Garanca), 3:39-3:42(Raisa) where Garanca's lack of developed chest becomes evident. In the 'to' of "Me l'ha rapito" Garanca uses chest, but it's weak and doesn't have the penetrating, resonant sound of Raisa. Later, in the "Io piano!" Raisa uses chest, while Garanca uses head voice. Both are possible, listen to Ponselle and Milanov to see how they opt for middle voice for that phrase, while Bruna Rasa, Stignani, Simionato, Muzio, Callas, Raisa etc opt for chest. The problem with Garanca is that due to the underdeveloped chest, the middle, particularly the lower middle lacks clarity and power and comes across as weak and woofy. The vowel too suffers. Note how 'piAAAngo' becomes 'piUhUhngo'.


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## ScottK (Dec 23, 2021)

BalalaikaBoy said:


> That reminds me: squillo. Most modern singers attempt to create "squillo" with nasal, overly forward "mask singing", not realizing that squillo is created primarily via carrying the right amount of chest participation into the upper register


I am guessing that no one makes that point like one Franco Corelli!


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## ScottK (Dec 23, 2021)

Shaafee Shameem said:


> You can hear both at 2:29-2:35 and 3:19-3:28(Garanca), 3:39-3:42(Raisa) where Garanca's lack of developed chest becomes evident. In the 'to' of "Me l'ha rapito" Garanca uses chest, but it's weak and doesn't have the penetrating, resonant sound of Raisa. Later, in the "Io piano!" Raisa uses chest, while Garanca uses head voice. Both are possible, listen to Ponselle and Milanov to see how they opt for middle voice for that phrase, while Bruna Rasa, Stignani, Simionato, Muzio, Callas, Raisa etc opt for chest. The problem with Garanca is that due to the underdeveloped chest, the middle, particularly the lower middle lacks clarity and power and comes across as weak and woofy. The vowel too suffers. Note how 'piAAAngo' becomes 'piUhUhngo'.


I'm listening to alot of these ends and its very cool. But what I'm noticing most of all is that sometimes it matters and sometimes, to me at least, it doesn't create a big impression. The Simionatto live from LaScala....she made a big deal out of it and it might have been melodramatic but it had oomph. Stignani is one of your chesters but it practically had a seemless blend.

One thing did come through....Cossotto, the superstar I used to take for granted a bit, has a live version on here and she doesn't look young and she sounds like a goddess!


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Shaafee Shameem said:


> You can hear both at 2:29-2:35 and 3:19-3:28(Garanca), 3:39-3:42(Raisa) where Garanca's lack of developed chest becomes evident. In the 'to' of "Me l'ha rapito" Garanca uses chest, but it's weak and doesn't have the penetrating, resonant sound of Raisa. Later, in the "Io piano!" Raisa uses chest, while Garanca uses head voice. Both are possible, listen to Ponselle and Milanov to see how they opt for middle voice for that phrase, while Bruna Rasa, Stignani, Simionato, Muzio, Callas, Raisa etc opt for chest. The problem with Garanca is that due to the underdeveloped chest, the middle, particularly the lower middle lacks clarity and power and comes across as weak and woofy. The vowel too suffers. Note how 'piAAAngo' becomes 'piUhUhngo'.


Be careful telling a woman she has an underdeveloped chest LOL


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

Seattleoperafan said:


> Be careful telling a woman she has an underdeveloped chest LOL


If she sounds ♭, she's ♭chested.


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