# Who are your most favorite and least favorite opera conductors?



## OffPitchNeb (Jun 6, 2016)

Opera conductors didn't get the attention they deserved. Let's make a thread for them.

My most favorite: Mitropoulos, de Sabata, Furtwangler, Eric Kleiber, and Barbirolli.

My least favorite: Barenboim and Levine.


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## Xenophiliu (Jan 2, 2022)

A favorite: Solti
A not-so favorite: Bernstein


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## Rogerx (Apr 27, 2018)

If Levine was still in the job he would on many people list. Still certainly on mine , Muti on no 1, Solti , Bonynge.


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## Aerobat (Dec 31, 2018)

Maybe I'm odd (I frequently am), but Bonynge ranks as one of my least favourite opera conductors. He doesn't do anything offensive, but he also doesn't really shine in any way to my ears. I suspect he wouldn't have been anywhere near as prominent as he was if he'd not married Joan. I have to agree with Xenophiliu about Bernstein - definitely not a favourite.

Favourites are harder. For Rossini & Bellini, Alberto Zedda shines for me. But Zedda was a specialist - he didn't really do anything else. I've been fortunate to see Andris Nelsons conduct performances of Tannhauser & Tristan that were quite spectacular - he has an deep and impressive understanding of Wagner. I also rate Zubin Mehta quite highly following a performance of Der Rosenkavalier in Firenze a few years ago. I've got a few of Georg Solti's recordings that I really enjoy, so I guess he has to be in the favourites too. Chaily & Harnoncourt also seem to produce consistently good recordings.

Not opera, but Celibidache's performances of the Verdi Requiem and Mozart's Messa De Requiem also feature very highly in my list. This one is also an excellent recording if you've not heard it:










Sadly only excerpts due to Celibidache's dislike of recordings.


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## OffPitchNeb (Jun 6, 2016)

Solti is an interesting case for me. While I disdain his works with Italian opera (he single-handedly ruined the studio _Aida _with Price/Vickers and _Don Carlo_ with Bergonzi/Tebaldi), his Götterdämmerung and Parsifal are among my top favorite. Even his Strauss is uneven: the _Salome _is too cacophonous, but_ Die Frau ohne Schatten_ is a good call.


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

Favorites: Toscanini/Nezet-Seguin/Bernstein/Levine/Solti/Karajan
Least: Slatkin/Domingo/Maazel


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## Aerobat (Dec 31, 2018)

OffPitchNeb said:


> Solti is an interesting case for me. While I disdain his works with Italian opera (he single-handedly ruined the studio _Aida _with Price/Vickers and _Don Carlo_ with Bergonzi/Tebaldi), his Götterdämmerung and Parsifal are among my top favorite. Even his Strauss is uneven: the _Salome _is too cacophonous, but_ Die Frau ohne Schatten_ is a good call.


I think this is the case with many conductors. They have areas where they excel, and areas where they can be poor. Some know their limits, others don't. Those who know their limits are probably the ones we should listen to the most, as they only work with material that they really understand in depth.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

OffPitchNeb said:


> Solti is an interesting case for me. While I disdain his works with Italian opera (he single-handedly ruined the studio _Aida _with Price/Vickers and _Don Carlo_ with Bergonzi/Tebaldi), his Götterdämmerung and Parsifal are among my top favorite. Even his Strauss is uneven: the _Salome _is too cacophonous, but_ Die Frau ohne Schatten_ is a good call.






This video for example can be dismissed as _fakery_ by certain someone. Because Solti's acting in it is not genuine. It is essentially _silent film of him dancing in front of an orchestra_, with added background music (playing in perfect sync with the visuals).


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## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

Opera is one genre where I don't buy something because of the conductor. It's never really mattered. The music and the singers are foremost. There are some who I know will do a professional job and even make great music: Mehta, Levine, Maazel, Solti, Karajan. Someone mentioned Bernstein. How much opera did he record? I have two from him: Puccini's La Boheme which is interesting because of his choice of singers and Verdi's Falstaff which is still the best one out there. It's legendary! I had Rosenkavalier on LP but it never make an impression.


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## Xenophiliu (Jan 2, 2022)

mbhaub said:


> Someone mentioned Bernstein. How much opera did he record?


Not much. At a quick glance: Tristan, Carmen, Fidelio, Bellini (Sonnambula), and Cherubini (Medea) come to mind in addition to the ones you mentioned. 

He is probably unparalleled in his own operas, though.


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

Even with the best of singers, a conductor can make or break a recording.

One conductor not so far listed who is high on my list is Giulini, another would be Serafin.


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## OffPitchNeb (Jun 6, 2016)

mbhaub said:


> Opera is one genre where I don't buy something because of the conductor. It's never really mattered. The music and the singers are foremost. There are some who I know will do a professional job and even make great music: Mehta, Levine, Maazel, Solti, Karajan. Someone mentioned Bernstein. How much opera did he record? I have two from him: Puccini's La Boheme which is interesting because of his choice of singers and Verdi's Falstaff which is still the best one out there. It's legendary! I had Rosenkavalier on LP but it never made an impression.


I used to think so until I could appreciate the genius of Mitropoulos, Furtwangler, de Sabata, Barbirolli, and Eric Kleiber (how could I forget him in the first post?). Not only does the conductor matter, a good one would bring the best out of the cast. I noticed that singers who were not exceptional vocal actors/actresses (del Monaco, Tebaldi, Tucker, Warren, etc.) sounded more involved when working with him. Even the grand old, self-indulgent Zinka Milanov sounded like a passionate Elvira (_Ernani_) for once. There were also instances Furtwangler could make the most of a rather-provincial cast. So, I do collect opera recordings of my favorite conductors.



Becca said:


> Even with the best of singers, a conductor can make or break a recording.
> 
> One conductor not so far listed who is high on my list is Giulini, another would be Serafin.


Yes, as I said above, Solti single-handedly ruined the Decca _Aida _and _Don Carlo_. The results would have been better under Serafin or Giulini.


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## OffPitchNeb (Jun 6, 2016)

Xenophiliu said:


> Not much. At a quick glance: Tristan, Carmen, Fidelio, Bellini (Sonnambula), and Cherubini (Medea) come to mind in addition to the ones you mentioned.
> 
> He is probably unparalleled in his own operas, though.


According to this site, there were 28 of them:




__





CLCUBERN.HTM






www.operadis-opera-discography.org.uk





From what I have heard so far, I dislike Berstein. His Falstaff may be the worst commercial recording of the opera. The Tristan is just bizarre.


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## RICK RIEKERT (Oct 9, 2017)

For Mozart in particular I really like Otmar Suitner, who worked with some of the finest Mozart singers of our time. Suitner was a noted Wagnerian and Straussian as well. He made superb recordings of Humperdinck’s _Hansel and Gretel_, Pfitzner’s _Palestrina_, Lortzing’s _Albert Die Opernprobe_, Paul Dessau’s _Einstein_, Gluck’s _Der betrogene Kadi_, and Schubert’s _Alfonso und Estrella_.


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## Op.123 (Mar 25, 2013)

I would like to start by praising some of the exceptional conductors of Italian opera who are too often accused of giving routine performances but usually turn out more dramatic and fluid performances than more respected conductors. De Fabritiis, Gavazzeni, Mario Rossi, Votto, Gui, Molinari-Pradelli, Arturo Basile etc. 

These rather underappreciated conductors are general preferences in Italian opera alongside more respected names such as Panizza, Toscanini, De Sabata, Serafin.

I would also make a special point of my love for Bodanzky's Wagner conducting which is always exciting but never un-musical.

There are many more modern conductors who I'm sure would also turn out great performances but I rarely listen to their full recordings as they are often marred by substandard singing.


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

hammeredklavier said:


> This video for example can be dismissed as _fakery_ by certain someone. Because Solti's acting in it is not genuine. It is essentially _silent film of him dancing in front of an orchestra_, with added background music (playing in perfect sync with the visuals).


I’m perplexed. Is this your genuine opinion or are you having a laugh?


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## OffPitchNeb (Jun 6, 2016)

Op.123 said:


> I would like to start by praising some of the exceptional conductors of Italian opera who are too often accused of giving routine performances but usually turn out more dramatic and fluid performances than more respected conductors. De Fabritiis, Gavazzeni, Mario Rossi, Votto, Gui, Molinari-Pradelli, Arturo Basile etc.
> 
> These rather underappreciated conductors are general preferences in Italian opera alongside more respected names such as Panizza, Toscanini, De Sabata, Serafin.
> 
> ...


I like Votto, Gui, Molinari-Pradelli, and Arturo Basile as well. They were the masters of their craft.

Bodanzky was the staple of historical Wagner recordings. I wish he had been captured in better sound.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

To a great extent it depends on the composer. I think *Serafin* is much underrated and when it comes to the Italian repertoire, he is one of the greatest. All his recordings with Callas are hard to beat, and not just because she is in them. I always mention a point in the Nile Scene in *Aida*, where he really makes the violins weep. No other conductor manages quite the same effect. His conducting of the final scene of *Forza del Destino *is likewise revelatory. If only more of his recordings had been in stereo. *De Sabata *too, but he made very few recordings.

Karajan is a conductor I often seek out, though I think his early period, when he recorded with the Philharmonia and La Scala is probably his finest. All three of his collaborations with Callas are superb (I'm not sure anyone conducts *Il Trovatore *with quite the same degree of rhythmic swagger and _brio _that he does). I think his EMI *Falstaff*, *Der Rosenkavalier*, *Ariadne auf Naxos* are all pretty unbeatable. I like his Wagner more than many, especially his *Ring*, *Tristan *and *Parsifal*. I'm not so fond of his Decca period and actually prefer his EMI *Madama Butterfly *to his Decca one, mostly because of Callas's searing Butterfly, but also because it is less self-consciously beautiful and more tautly dramatic. For that reason I also prefer his EMI *Aida *which I listened to the other day. It really is a fantastic performance, and one of my favorites. I don't know much of his later work, but remember listening to his *Un Ballo in Maschera *a couple of years back and finding it a lote better than I'd been led to believe.

For Rossini, *Gui* is always splendid, especially in the comic operas, and I also like *Giulin*i in both Verdi and Mozart. I always think it a shame he conducted opera so rarely.

The one conductor I tend to avoid is Solti. I really dislike his Verdi, which is a shame because he often has a great cast. I don't much like his Strauss and though I think Nilsson, a singer I don't usually like, is probably the best Elektra on disc, I can't take his overwrought conducting of the piece. Admittedly I don't much like the opera, but if I were to get a recording, I'd go for *Sawallisch*, who is a conductor I like a lot in Strauss. I think Solti has the best FROSCH cast but it's all just a bit too relentlessly loud for my liking, and it's put me off the opera.


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## IgorS (Jan 7, 2018)

Favorites: Arturo Toscanini, Tullio Serafin, Georg Solti 
Least: Richard Bonynge, Yannick Nézet-Séguin


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## vivalagentenuova (Jun 11, 2019)

Old-school Italian conductors get short shrift, but the best of them really knew what they were doing. Carlo Sabajno did some great work in those late 1920s complete recordings. Ugo Tansini is one who shows up on 30s recordings of arias, as well as the complete Lucia di Lammermoor, who I think does a terrific job of giving the music a spontaneous edge even in a studio recording. He conducted Tagliavini's exquisite 1940 rendering of Ed anche Beppe amo'.

I'm a big fan of Mitropoulos' Puccini. His readings of Madama Butterfly (albeit cut) and La fanciulla del west are among my favorites, and it is a shame that he did not get major Puccini studio recordings, especially when conductors like von Matacic (and later Mehta) were butchering _Fanciulla _in their studio versions. 

I generally agree with those who have said that it depends, as conductors' work, like singers', varies from composer to composer, opera to opera, and performance to performance. I think Francesco Molinari-Pradelli's _La rondine _is exceptional, with every moment perfectly judged. His _La forza del destino_ at San Carlo is headachingly slow and I think he undermines an excellent vocal performance.


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## OffPitchNeb (Jun 6, 2016)

Tsaraslondon said:


> To a great extent it depends on the composer. I think *Serafin* is much underrated and when it comes to the Italian repertoire, he is one of the greatest. All his recordings with Callas are hard to beat, and not just because she is in them. I always mention a point in the Nile Scene in *Aida*, where he really makes the violins weep. No other conductor manages quite the same effect. His conducting of the final scene of *Forza del Destino *is likewise revelatory. If only more of his recordings had been in stereo. *De Sabata *too, but he made very few recordings.
> 
> Karajan is a conductor I often seek out, though I think his early period, when he recorded with the Philharmonia and La Scala is probably his finest. All three of his collaborations with Callas are superb (I'm not sure anyone conducts *Il Trovatore *with quite the same degree of rhythmic swagger and _brio _that he does). I think his EMI *Falstaff*, *Der Rosenkavalier*, *Ariadne auf Naxos* are all pretty unbeatable. I like his Wagner more than many, especially his *Ring*, *Tristan *and *Parsifal*. I'm not so fond of his Decca period and actually prefer his EMI *Madama Butterfly *to his Decca one, mostly because of Callas's searing Butterfly, but also because it is less self-consciously beautiful and more tautly dramatic. For that reason I also prefer his EMI *Aida *which I listened to the other day. It really is a fantastic performance, and one of my favorites. I don't know much of his later work, but remember listening to his *Un Ballo in Maschera *a couple of years back and finding it a lote better than I'd been led to believe.
> 
> ...


There were some historical recordings of Serafin in the 30s and 40s, and they were good. Callas was lucky to have him as a mentor.

Sawallisch is indeed a good Strauss conductor. I like his Arabella and the tone poems.


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## OffPitchNeb (Jun 6, 2016)

vivalagentenuova said:


> Old-school Italian conductors get short shrift, but the best of them really knew what they were doing. Carlo Sabajno did some great work in those late 1920s complete recordings. Ugo Tansini is one who shows up on 30s recordings of arias, as well as the complete Lucia di Lammermoor, who I think does a terrific job of giving the music a spontaneous edge even in a studio recording. He conducted Tagliavini's exquisite 1940 rendering of Ed anche Beppe amo'.
> 
> I*'m a big fan of Mitropoulos' Puccini. His readings of Madama Butterfly (albeit cut) and La fanciulla del west are among my favorites, and it is a shame that he did not get major Puccini studio recordings, especially when conductors like von Matacic (and later Mehta) were butchering Fanciulla in their studio versions.*
> 
> I generally agree with those who have said that it depends, as conductors' work, like singers', varies from composer to composer, opera to opera, and performance to performance. I think Francesco Molinari-Pradelli's _La rondine _is exceptional, with every moment perfectly judged. His _La forza del destino_ at San Carlo is headachingly slow and I think he undermines an excellent vocal performance.


Absolutely. I became his devoted fan after listening to that _Fanciulla_. Only Mitropoulos did justice to this great score. The way he made the drums (?) mimick the racing heartbeat of Minnie in the poker scene (see below) is just genius, and I have never heard any other conductors achieve this effect.


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## Agamenon (Apr 22, 2019)

*Serafin *is underrated. I like his Boheme, Butterfly, Aida.

*Karajan, (60´s and 50s), *was a giant. (Pagliacci,Trovatore, Falstaff, Rosenkavalier, Tristan -Bayreuth)

*Fricsay *in Mozart.


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## DCK (7 mo ago)

Since the original question asked for most and least, I'll only give one answer for each.

Favorite is Karl Böhm. I saw the last opera he conducted at the Met, which was Fidelio (probably 1978). He had trouble getting to the podium, but when the music started it was as if years dropped away. His conducting became animated and the sound coming from the orchestra was magical.

Least favorite is Bonynge. His conducting had only one goal - to make his wife the absolute star. He seemed to alter the music just for Joan, changing rhythms and dynamics for the sole purpose to cater to her desires. She produced glorious sound but it wasn't what the opera was written to be.

For least favorite I could have selected Domingo, but the task posed was "least favorite conductor" and Domingo doesn't conduct, he beats time and even that isn't always successful.


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## Dick Johnson (Apr 14, 2020)

Favorites: Bohm, Furtwangler, Levine, Rousset, Minkowski, Petrou, Chailly
Least Favorite: Bonynge


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## Op.123 (Mar 25, 2013)

I would agree with everyone saying that Bonynge was an awful opera conductor. Avoid, avoid, avoid.


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## Andjar (Aug 28, 2020)

Karajan, Pappano, Gergiev.


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## OffPitchNeb (Jun 6, 2016)

Op.123 said:


> I would agree with everyone saying that Bonynge was an awful opera conductor. Avoid, avoid, avoid.


Bonynge is not doing well on TC, I guess. I have no strong opinions about him because I rarely listen to anything with Sutherland in it. Just wondering what were his offenses ?


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Op.123 said:


> I would agree with everyone saying that Bonynge was an awful opera conductor. Avoid, avoid, avoid.


I don't really care because Sutherland was singing usually when he conducted and that was all I cared about. Many many many love her in the opera world but she gets little love here. Because of him they resurrected many lost gems and he gave her stability and a family life on the hard life that is led in an international jet set career. I would have never had the Joan Sutherland as a coloratura soprano that we know without him, even though he was not an outstanding conductor. Where he really shone was as a music scholar and voice teacher ( of Sutherland). Sutherland and Bonynge were a symbiotic relationship and their careers were dependent and intertwined with each other in a way rarely seen in classical music, although Callas/ Serafin at an important phase in her career had similarities and lots of overlap in their repertoires.


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## Aerobat (Dec 31, 2018)

OffPitchNeb said:


> Bonynge is not doing well on TC, I guess. I have no strong opinions about him because I rarely listen to anything with Sutherland in it. Just wondering what were his offenses ?


Others will no doubt add to this: The only word I can find for his conducting is 'bland'. He undoubtedly favours Joan in his delivery. He does nothing desperately offensive, but neither does he shine in any way. 

However, as SeattleOperaFan points out, he & Joan did produce many little-known / lost works and bring them back to prominence, which can only be a good thing, but I can usually find a recording that I prefer that's conducted by someone else!


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

If Bonynge was that good of a voice teacher, why did Sutherland's diction go to h**l after he got involved?


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## sworley (6 mo ago)

Karajan's second Aida and his studio Don Carlo are brilliant examples of what a gifted conductor can bring to opera.
If we can include live recordings I would point to Vittorio Gui, Clemens Krauss, and Ettore Panizza as examples of conductors whose work is so consistently 'right' as to approach the definitive if such a thing existed.
Who would I avoid? Georges Pretre, Richard Bonynge, and the James Levine of the 1970s (he became less ham-handed over time, but even then I find him just tolerable). And heresy of heresies, I really find Giulini to be overrated in opera.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Becca said:


> If Bonynge was that good of a voice teacher, why did Sutherland's diction go to h**l after he got involved?


It was a conscious decision to prolong her voice. She was singing absolutely amazing D6's at 60, so maybe it worked. It is the reason why so many hate her here. I know no foreign languages so I don't care.


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

I'm much more interested in the overall forest rather than the occasional tall tree


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Becca said:


> I'm much more interested in the overall forest rather than the occasional tall tree


More are like you here than like me by a long shot. I'm odd but I am pretty good at creating contests at least.


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## sworley (6 mo ago)

Seattleoperafan said:


> It was a conscious decision to prolong her voice. She was singing absolutely amazing D6's at 60, so maybe it worked. It is the reason why so many hate her here. I know no foreign languages so I don't care.


Really? I had always believed that she simply couldn't both sing legato/keep a good belcanto line and maintain her diction at the same time.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

sworley said:


> Really? I had always believed that she simply couldn't both sing legato/keep a good belcanto line and maintain her diction at the same time.


Callas fan. Everyone here worships Callas and hates everything about Sutherland. Gets tiresome.


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## sworley (6 mo ago)

Seattleoperafan said:


> Callas fan. Everyone here worships Callas and hates everything about Sutherland. Gets tiresome.


I actually enjoy Sutherland in some things. Esclarmonde, for one. And there's that astonishingly dramatic Turandot for another. I enjoy both of her Somnambulas, especially the first one. In fact, I listen to a lot of Sutherland just for the sheer pleasure of that voice. Oh, I forgot about the Faust too, which as unidiomatic as it is gives me a lot of joy with its three principals singing like Gods. Really, it's Bonynge that tends to take the shine off a lot of her complete recordings for me. I also enjoy her when the voice was aging. The Met Lucia gives me pleasure. There's that moment in the mad scene when she sings "Alfin sei tua . . ." when she is remarkably dramatic and shows her as a genuine artist and not just a stupendous voice. I even prefer the second Norma to the first because, with the voice changing and the registers starting to seperate, she begins to use the voice in more interesting ways. (Caballe, a great singer in her day of course, is the real fly in the ointment in that Norma. It's sad to hear her and makes it hard for me to listen to that set from start to finish.)


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

sworley said:


> I actually enjoy Sutherland in some things. Esclarmonde, for one. And there's that astonishingly dramatic Turandot for another. I enjoy both of her Somnambulas, especially the first one. In fact, I listen to a lot of Sutherland just for the sheer pleasure of that voice. Oh, I forgot about the Faust too, which as unidiomatic as it is gives me a lot of joy with its three principals singing like Gods. Really, it's Bonynge that tends to take the shine off a lot of her complete recordings for me. I also enjoy her when the voice was aging. The Met Lucia gives me pleasure. There's that moment in the mad scene when she sings "Alfin sei tua . . ." when she is remarkably dramatic and shows her as a genuine artist and not just a stupendous voice. I even prefer the second Norma to the first because, with the voice changing and the registers starting to seperate, she begins to use the voice in more interesting ways. (Caballe, a great singer in her day of course, is the real fly in the ointment in that Norma. It's sad to hear her and makes it hard for me to listen to that set from start to finish.)


May someone attractive give you a hug for me!!!!!!!!!!! Bless you for this post!!!! I hardly see anything like it on the forum!!!!! Only for very early Sutherland is any praise ever given.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

sworley said:


> Really? I had always believed that she simply couldn't both sing legato/keep a good belcanto line and maintain her diction at the same time.


Some have offered that as an excuse, but I don't buy it. There was nothing wrong with her legato early on, when her vowels and consonants were clear.


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## damianjb1 (Jan 1, 2016)

Aerobat said:


> Maybe I'm odd (I frequently am), but Bonynge ranks as one of my least favourite opera conductors. He doesn't do anything offensive, but he also doesn't really shine in any way to my ears. I suspect he wouldn't have been anywhere near as prominent as he was if he'd not married Joan. I have to agree with Xenophiliu about Bernstein - definitely not a favourite.


I completely agree with you. He ruined many of his wife, Joan Sutherland's recordings. She sounds like a different singer in Turandot (with Mehta) and the Verdi Requiem (with Solti).


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## Aerobat (Dec 31, 2018)

damianjb1 said:


> I completely agree with you. He ruined many of his wife, Joan Sutherland's recordings. She sounds like a different singer in Turandot (with Mehta) and the Verdi Requiem (with Solti).


Funnily enough, the Turandot with Mehta is the only recording of Sutherland's that I own.


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## Yabetz (Sep 6, 2021)

My interest in opera at the moment is mostly Wagner, Mozart and some Richard Strauss. I've never been that much into 19th-20th century Italian opera, but maybe some day. It's not really an aversion. Anyway, as such, favorites would be Karajan, Solti, Böhm and Knappertsbusch. I don't really have "least favorites", just "not quite as 'favorite' ".


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## damianjb1 (Jan 1, 2016)

Aerobat said:


> Funnily enough, the Turandot with Mehta is the only recording of Sutherland's that I own.


It's one of the best things she did. Her first Norma is very beautiful. It's not particularly well conducted. But the singing is astounding.


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## Shaughnessy (Dec 31, 2020)

Becca said:


> *If Bonynge was that good of a voice teacher, why did Sutherland's diction go to h**l after he got involved?*


I think you're being far too harsh - People tend to forget just how difficult English can be when it's not your native language...


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Shaughnessy said:


> I think you're being far too harsh - People tend to forget just how difficult English can be when it's not your native language...


I assume this is a joke. English _was_ her native language, though she mostly sang operas in (unrecognisable) Italian and French.


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## Shaughnessy (Dec 31, 2020)

Tsaraslondon said:


> I assume this is a joke. English _was_ her native language, though she mostly sang operas in (unrecognisable) Italian and French.


Bonynge is Australian and Sutherland was Australian - English is not their native language - I've been to Australia - I had to hire a translator as we apparently do not share a language in common.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Shaughnessy said:


> Bonynge and Sutherland were Australian - English is not their native language - I've been to Australia - I had to hire a translator as we apparently do not share a language in common.


Really, I usually find Australian English easier to understand than some American English. Of course the Irish don't speak English either


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

I claim to be multi-lingual in that I speak English, American, Canadian, Kiwi and a smattering of Aussie and even some Lancashire


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## Shaughnessy (Dec 31, 2020)

Becca said:


> *I claim to be multi-lingual in that I speak English, American, Canadian, Kiwi and a smattering of Aussie and even some Lancashire*


And all of them with that dreadful Manc accent - _quelle horreur - _


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

Shaughnessy said:


> And all of them with that dreadful Manc accent - _quelle horreur - _


Even worse than that ... BBC English was de-rigeur when I was in school.


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## Shaughnessy (Dec 31, 2020)

Tsaraslondon said:


> Really, I usually find Australian English easier to understand than some American English. *Of course the Irish don't speak English either *


While I'm tempted to write something like "The Irish speak English better than the English speak Irish" - I'll resist the temptation to do so as I know all too well that in certain counties, it's just easier to switch to Irish than it is to continue trying to comprehend what, in theory at least, is supposed to be English. Even if they're not fluent - or only know what they've learned in 13 years of mandatory _Gaeilge_ which, quite frankly, is next to nothing - even if they don't actually speak the language at all, somehow, in some strange way, it's still easier to use Irish than it is English... especially with anyone from Limerick, Kerry, or Cork.

I was exaggerating about Australian accents for comedic effect - I tend to write the joke first and only worry about whether it makes any sense afterwards... if then. Once they realize that you're not native, they're able to throttle the accent back to an extent in which every second or third word makes just about enough sense to give you a rough idea as to what they might be saying. They are friendly though - Even if you say the word "what?" a hundred times in like 10 minutes they never lose their temper - They kind of think it's hilarious - Which makes me think that they're talking that way on purpose just for laughs.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Shaughnessy said:


> While I'm tempted to write something like "The Irish speak English better than the English speak Irish" - I'll resist the temptation to do so as I know all too well that in certain counties, it's just easier to switch to Irish than it is to continue trying to comprehend what, in theory at least, is supposed to be English. Even if they're not fluent - or only know what they've learned in 13 years of mandatory _Gaeilge_ which, quite frankly, is next to nothing - even if they don't actually speak the language at all, somehow, in some strange way, it's still easier to use Irish than it is English... especially with anyone from Limerick, Kerry, or Cork.
> 
> I was exaggerating about Australian accents for comedic effect - I tend to write the joke first and only worry about whether it makes any sense afterwards... if then. Once they realize that you're not native, they're able to throttle the accent back to an extent in which every second or third word makes just about enough sense to give you a rough idea as to what they might be saying. They are friendly though - Even if you say the word "what?" a hundred times in like 10 minutes they never lose their temper - They kind of think it's hilarious - Which makes me think that they're talking that way on purpose just for laughs.


I was joking myself, which I expect you realised.

All of this talk about Engis, and the way she is spoken, not only in different parts of the world, but in different parts of a country where English is the first language, put me in mind of this.






Of course much of it isn't true these days. Indeed the BBC has been turning its back on properly spoken RP (received pronunciation) for years.


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