# Another one of these....



## Kopachris

Throughout high school, I have always been a vocalist, and have been considered a very good baritone, though most likely not good enough to sing professionally (I'm not looking to perform professionally, anyway). However, to better understand composition, I feel that I should try to better understand instrumental music as it is performed. I want to learn the cello. Here are the statistics: I am 18 years old, just graduated high school, have a full-time job, and not planning on going to college. I am very good at learning, though this is mostly related to technical/analysis stuff, and I might be significantly slower at learning motor skills.

I have a small bit of experience with keyboard instruments (just enough to plunk out simple melodies and harmonies). I'm sure that, given enough practice, I can learn anything. The only problem is with finding enough motivation to practice regularly. I can use Youtube and other websites (including this one) to inform me of bad habits to avoid, good posture, technique, etc. The fact that I live in the middle of nowhere kind of prohibits me from getting an actual teacher or tutor. Again, I'm not looking to perform professionally--just good enough to help with composition and maybe to upload a few recordings to Youtube or Soundcloud.

I know the physics behind how a bowed stringed instrument (and most other instruments, really) works. I know that two enharmonically equivalent notes usually sound a bit different from each other on a bowed stringed instrument, though I'm not sure what the difference is when it comes to playing. I know the basic posture for playing a cello (sitting on the edge of the chair, back straight, upper part of the belly against the chest, fingers curved pretty much everywhere, etc.). I'm sure I can find fingering tutorials, etc. somewhere on the Internet, but any links would be appreciated nonetheless.

Mostly, I'm worried about finding enough motivation, but I'm also worried that I may be overlooking something. Any advice?

EDIT: Also, I can't learn piano because I don't have room for a piano, and an electric keyboard, while useful for interfacing with a computer, isn't good enough to really learn how to play a piano. I also hope that the cost of a cello compared to a smaller instrument will help motivate me to practice.


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## clavichorder

You should definitely give it a try! A few years ago, I started double bass. I eventually quit because I didn't practice, I considered it a mistake to have picked double bass and not cello, since my interest was in chamber music. Bowing is a strange skill to learn, but it was gratifying whenever I got a relatively good tone. The hand positions were really neat.

Its a big decision to commit to any instrument. Ultimately I've fallen back on piano over the years, despite my attempts to break free... I bet if you really commit yourself, in two years you'll have made considerable progress. I don't know if that's a helpful way to look at it, I'm terrible at following through with goals myself...


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## Vaneyes

Being a reformed cornet player, choosing an instrument you can play easily while laying down makes sense to me. Piccolo, small percussion pieces.


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## Kopachris

Vaneyes said:


> Being a reformed cornet player, choosing an instrument you can play easily while laying down makes sense to me. Piccolo, small percussion pieces.




No, I'm fairly dead-set on the cello or another bowed stringed instrument. Next question: buying a cheap (~$350 for a cello w/ accessories) starter instrument on eBay or Craigslist--good idea or bad idea?


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## Philip

man if i had money and no neighbours i would definitely pick up the violin. i like the cello's register better but it's just too big and inconvenient.

i would buy locally and ask a cellist/string player friend.

ps. prepare your fingers for a hurting.


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## Ukko

Kopachris said:


> No, I'm fairly dead-set on the cello or another bowed stringed instrument. Next question: buying a cheap (~$350 for a cello w/ accessories) starter instrument on eBay or Craigslist--good idea or bad idea?


Not the sort of thing I would buy on eBay, probably not Craigslist either; condition thing is too 'subjective', shipping too chancy. I think I would go _Philip_'s suggested route if possible, if not then to a retailer.


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## Kopachris

So... $200-350 on eBay (including shipping), or $600 (Craigslist) - $1,250 (retail) locally.


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## Ukko

Kopachris said:


> So... $200-350 on eBay (including shipping), or $600 (Craigslist) - $1,250 (retail) locally.


Hah. Maybe it comes down to how well you do shooting craps?


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## Kopachris

Hilltroll72 said:


> Hah. Maybe it comes down to how well you do shooting craps?


Well, I do work at a casino, but I'm still under 21. :lol: I guess I'll just save up for another month, then see what condition that local Craigslist one is in (if it's even still available). If it's no good, I'll just spring for retail. Maybe I'll be able to find one for less than $1,250--we've got several music stores in town, but only one with a website.


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## Klavierspieler

There is also the option of renting. 

And...





Get a teacher.


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## Kopachris

Klavierspieler said:


> There is also the option of renting.


Well, that's true. I suppose I could rent for a while at first, and then buy one if it looks like it's something I want to continue with.


Klavierspieler said:


> Get a teacher.


I already said that's kind of impossible because of where I live. The nearest cello teacher is four hours away, so I'd be able to see him or her so infrequently that it wouldn't even matter. I'll definitely visit some local music teachers for advice and feedback, but getting an actual cello teacher is unfeasible.


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## Philip

argh... this thread is giving me ideas, a yamaha silent violin would be nice...


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## Kopachris

Philip said:


> argh... this thread is giving me ideas, a yamaha silent violin would be nice...


Electric cellos look cooler. 

So here's what I'll do: next Monday or Tuesday, I'll go into town and pick up a rental cello and a couple books and set a goal for myself of two hours in the morning and two hours in the evening. Does that sound reasonable?


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## Ukko

Two hours may be too long at first; the fingertips on your fretting hand have to get, ah, conditioned I betcha.


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## Klavierspieler

Do it if you can. The fingertips don't actually hurt very much; after a couple days it goes away completely.


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## Klavierspieler

Out of curiosity, how did you go about looking for 'cello teachers?


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## Ukko

Klavierspieler said:


> Do it if you can. The fingertips don't actually hurt very much; after a couple days it goes away completely.


Ah, excellent. Way back when I was messing with a guitar, it took several weeks.


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## Klavierspieler

Hilltroll72 said:


> Ah, excellent. Way back when I was messing with a guitar, it took several weeks.


It still hurts my fingers to play my brother's guitar after two years of 'cello.


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## Kopachris

Klavierspieler said:


> Out of curiosity, how did you go about looking for 'cello teachers?


Google all over the place. Yes, I know a lot of them probably wouldn't show up on Google and would only be found through word-of-mouth, but I have very few connections. I'll still ask around where I can, and if I can find a teacher locally, I'll reconsider.


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## Zanralotta

I've played in all kinds of orchestras over the past 15 years and have met many self-taught string players.
I will as bluntly as possible state the sum of my experience:

DON'T! EVER! ATTEMPT! TO DO IT! WITHOUT A TEACHER!

It never works. Ever.

If nothing else works out for you, wait a few years until you find someone who can teach you. That way you won't develop a chronical tendonitis and won't have to deal with incredible frustration.


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## Kopachris

Zanralotta said:


> I've played in all kinds of orchestras over the past 15 years and have met many self-taught string players.
> I will as bluntly as possible state the sum of my experience:
> 
> DON'T! EVER! ATTEMPT! TO DO IT! WITHOUT A TEACHER!
> 
> It never works. Ever.
> 
> If nothing else works out for you, wait a few years until you find someone who can teach you. That way you won't develop a chronical tendonitis and won't have to deal with incredible frustration.


Tendinosis? Well, the best way to avoid tendinosis, like any repetitive strain injury, is to stay relaxed and take occasional breaks. I'll still try to find a teacher, but if tendinosis is the worst I have to worry about without one, I think I'll be fine at least attempting.


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## Klavierspieler

Kopachris said:


> Tendinosis? Well, the best way to avoid tendinosis, like any repetitive strain injury, is to stay relaxed and take occasional breaks. I'll still try to find a teacher, but if tendinosis is the worst I have to worry about without one, I think I'll be fine at least attempting.


Err... You can easily be tense without realizing it.


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## Lunasong

> Out of curiosity, how did you go about looking for 'cello teachers?


Asking the music store is a good idea. Or local high school band director or community college music dept. Or closest community band or orchestra. Even if these groups don't include stringed instruments, they may have connections. You may be surprised that even if the orchestra is not in your community, a member of it might live there.


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## Kopachris

Lunasong said:


> Asking the music store is a good idea. Or local high school band director or community college music dept. Or closest community band or orchestra. Even if these groups don't include stringed instruments, they may have connections. You may be surprised that even if the orchestra is not in your community, a member of it might live there.


Already planned on doing that.


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## Zanralotta

Kopachris said:


> Tendinosis? Well, the best way to avoid tendinosis, like any repetitive strain injury, is to stay relaxed and take occasional breaks. I'll still try to find a teacher, but if tendinosis is the worst I have to worry about without one, I think I'll be fine at least attempting.


Well, tendonitis is a symptome of the underlying problem all of the 30+ self-taught string players I've met had: Bad technique.
The consequences of it are a bit more than merely pain, or being forced to pause playing for 3 week every other month.

Self-teaching is like trying to build a house by starting with the roof first and thinking the foundation will just appear out of thin air (that's why I said it never works).
It is - most of all - a highly frustrating experience: 
So much enthusiasm! So little success!

I always felt really sorry for the self-taught musicians I met. All of them really loved their instrument (very, very much!), but they had to invest 5 or 6 times as much effort into mastering a piece as people who had a decent teacher. And even those who eventually took lessons spent almost all of their time unlearning bad habits instead of making progress.
It's why most of them gave up in the end. Not because of tendonitis.

Even with a teacher, it takes about 10 years to learn the basic technique of a string instrument. You can do the math, what that means for self-taught musicians.

The question is, what do you want to do? 
Is one of your goals to be able to play the famous cello pieces?
Or are you perfectly satisfied with the basics?

It's your decision, of course. I just wanted to give you my real life experience, since you asked for feed-back.

Good luck!


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## Kopachris

Zanralotta said:


> Well, tendonitis is a symptome of the underlying problem all of the 30+ self-taught string players I've met had: Bad technique.
> The consequences of it are a bit more than merely pain, or being forced to pause playing for 3 week every other month.
> 
> Self-teaching is like trying to build a house by starting with the roof first and thinking the foundation will just appear out of thin air (that's why I said it never works).
> It is - most of all - a highly frustrating experience:
> So much enthusiasm! So little success!
> 
> I always felt really sorry for the self-taught musicians I met. All of them really loved their instrument (very, very much!), but they had to invest 5 or 6 times as much effort into mastering a piece as people who had a decent teacher. And even those who eventually took lessons spent almost all of their time unlearning bad habits instead of making progress.
> It's why most of them gave up in the end. Not because of tendonitis.
> 
> Even with a teacher, it takes about 10 years to learn the basic technique of a string instrument. You can do the math, what that means for self-taught musicians.
> 
> The question is, what do you want to do?
> Is one of your goals to be able to play the famous cello pieces?
> Or are you perfectly satisfied with the basics?
> 
> It's your decision, of course. I just wanted to give you my real life experience, since you asked for feed-back.


Interesting. Far from discouraging me, your comments actually give me a burning desire to prove you wrong. Therefore, your feedback is actually more appreciated than the others'. Thank you. Rest easy, though: I assure you that I will not end up with tendinosis or tendinitis. Professionalism in everything I do has always been an important value for me, and I never had any plans to simply "jump in" without learning technique or being aware of bad habits to avoid. Even if I can't find a true cello teacher (and I _will_ try to find one) I think you underestimate the resources I have access to on the Internet and my capability to understand and apply them. Even if self-teaching of an instrument doesn't succeed, I think it would still be worthwhile to at least attempt it. After all, I _definitely_ won't be able to learn the cello if I never try.



Zanralotta said:


> Good luck!


Thank you! Despite the confidence (perhaps overconfidence) I showed above, I do think I'll need some luck.


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## Aramis

Kopachris said:


> I already said that's kind of impossible because of where I live. The nearest cello teacher is four hours away, so I'd be able to see him or her so infrequently that it wouldn't even matter. I'll definitely visit some local music teachers for advice and feedback, but getting an actual cello teacher is unfeasible.


Wouldn't even matter? I assure you that learning alone causes such problems that you may struggle with overcoming them and finding proper resolvement yourself/via internet/in books for weeks, while teacher could give you hint and demonstration that may help you almost at once. Don't give up on teacher even if you could see him once a week, even month. It still will be incredibly helpful and important. Teacher is must-have, no matter what.


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## Jaws

An adult late starter who has a full time job, may only need a lesson once every month, so even 4 hours away might be possible? The big difference between teaching yourself and having lessons is that the lessons make the learning quicker. So what might take 6 months to learn with lessons might take 2 years without. Without the lessons you have to work out what you think you might need to be able to do by experiment. When you go for a lesson you are paying someone to tell you what you need to be able to do, so lessons save a lot of time. It can be a bit demoralising to get to a certain standard only to discover that the way that you have achieved what you thought that you needed to know was not a way that will now allow you to continue improving. At that point you might have to undo something that you have spent a couple of years practising in, so another couple of years to practise it out. Lessons are useful in this respect as the teacher will know what methods are needed so that improvement is not held back by having to take lots of time to correct mistakes. Most people prefer to continue to improve which is why they have lessons.


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