# Classical gender identities??



## handlebar (Mar 19, 2009)

I don't remember reading of such a question so why not:

How many composers were gay/lesbian/bi,etc?And how many had identity issues with their gender?

And what about the percentage of composers who were such?

It is not a subject that crosses the music lists I subscribe to and other than one book I have seen that details the sexual lives of composers, not much is said.

It is said that Tchaikovsky was gay yet was he really or was he bisexual?
The times that they lived in were tough for gay/bi/lesbian people.So most were certainly still in the closet.

Thoughts?

Jim


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## Aramis (Mar 1, 2009)

http://www.talkclassical.com/5112-gay-composers.html


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## handlebar (Mar 19, 2009)

I vaguely remember that thread even though I posted on it. How sad is that!!
AH yes. Old age creeping up on me.

Jim


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## Romantic Geek (Dec 25, 2009)

It seems that most of the major American 20th century composers actually are gay or bisexual. Copland, Bernstein, Diamond, Corigliano, Rorem...just to name a few.


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## handlebar (Mar 19, 2009)

True enough. I know in many cases that if you were not part of that gay or Bi inner circle that Copland wouldn't give you the time of day. Just the way he was. He liked being in the company of like minded people.
I have most of Rorem's books and have corresponded with him a few times. Nice man and I do like his music.
Diamond,Creston and Thomson are also favourites of mine. 

But most of the composers that did come out as gay/bi were from the 20th century. The 19th was the tough century for that. 

Thankfully we live in a bit more liberal society as far as that goes.


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## Romantic Geek (Dec 25, 2009)

I love Rorem's stuff too. My composition teacher (ironically gay as well) introduced me to his works.


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## LatinClassics (Dec 27, 2009)

What does any of this have to do with the quality of a composer's music? Does it really matter whether David Diamond or Tchaikovsky was gay? Does it matter that Barber was gay? I mean seriously none of this should have any bearing on what we hear as listeners. What matters, to me, will forever be the quality of the music, which I think is much more important than the composer's gender or sexual orientation.


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## World Violist (May 31, 2007)

LatinClassics said:


> What does any of this have to do with the quality of a composer's music? Does it really matter whether David Diamond or Tchaikovsky was gay? Does it matter that Barber was gay? I mean seriously none of this should have any bearing on what we hear as listeners. What matters, to me, will forever be the quality of the music, which I think is much more important than the composer's gender or sexual orientation.


No, it has nothing to do with quality of music (as was addressed in the original thread Aramis posted above), it's just a matter of curiosity.


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## LatinClassics (Dec 27, 2009)

World Violist said:


> No, it has nothing to do with quality of music.


I rest my case.


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## Tapkaara (Apr 18, 2006)

The subject of a composer's (or any artist's) sexual orientation obviously has little to nothing to do with the quality of their music, but as Violist said, it's a matter of curiosity. The lives of the composers outside of their artistry is often as interesting as their music, and one's sexuality is certainly a large part of one's private/social life.

If we can care so much about Beethoven's "Immortal Beloved" in discussions of his life, why not delve into, for example, the love life of Aaron Copland? Or Tchaikovsky? Or Bernstein?


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## LatinClassics (Dec 27, 2009)

Tapkaara said:


> The subject of a composer's (or any artist's) sexual orientation obviously has little to nothing to do with the quality of their music, but as Violist said, it's a matter of curiosity. The lives of the composers outside of their artistry is often as interesting as their music, and one's sexuality is certainly a large part of one's private/social life.
> 
> If we can care so much about Beethoven's "Immortal Beloved" in discussions of his life, why not delve into, for example, the love life of Aaron Copland? Or Tchaikovsky? Or Bernstein?


I'm certainly interested in a composer's life, especially what influenced their music, but in the grand scheme of things, it doesn't really matter to me, but that's just my own opinion.

Since you're such a big Sibelius fan, Tapkaara please explain to me why Sibelius didn't hardly compose another piece of music for his last 30 years? Does this have anything to do with the quality of his music? You see where I'm getting at? Some people would say that Sibelius ran out of good ideas, but I fail to see it this way. I love Sibelius and I look at what he composed as very high in quality.


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## handlebar (Mar 19, 2009)

World Violist said:


> No, it has nothing to do with quality of music (as was addressed in the original thread Aramis posted above), it's just a matter of curiosity.


Exactly. It is a mere sociological question that,whether you like it or not, makes a huge impact on life and it's various facets. 
The original question was not what makes a composer's music "gay".It was simply something that intrigues humans of every culture.

Jim


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## handlebar (Mar 19, 2009)

LatinClassics said:


> I'm certainly interested in a composer's life, especially what influenced their music, but in the grand scheme of things, it doesn't really matter to me, but that's just my own opinion.
> 
> Since you're such a big Sibelius fan, Tapkaara please explain to me why Sibelius didn't hardly compose another piece of music for his last 30 years? Does this have anything to do with the quality of his music? You see where I'm getting at? Some people would say that Sibelius ran out of good ideas, but I fail to see it this way. I love Sibelius and I look at what he composed as very high in quality.


Isn't it just possible that a composer might want to simply retire from his work? Same as an accountant or lawyer might desire the rest of retirement? 
Why does there always have to be a detailed explanation of why a composer does this or that?

After working for as many years as he did perhaps he just said "I'm tired and want to stop composing".

It does not,as far as anyone knows,have anything to do with gender identity or sexual persuasion,the topic of this thread. As mentioned ad nauseum,the composers sex life has no bearing on the actual notes themselves.
But the composers sex life CAN and DOES have a big impact on the social and cultural scene depending on the era and place one lived. If Mozart had come out as a gay man it would have been a completely different matter than if Bernstein came out in 1970. I don't think anyone can doubt that.
Celebrity has it's pros and cons. The cons being that everyone sticks their noses in your personal life. Many famous people intentionally let the world know of their exploits and hence bring such publicity on themselves.

We have very few examples of composers before 1900 wearing their sexual preference on their sleeves and showing it off in public. But things changed after 1920 and it has never been the same since.


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## LatinClassics (Dec 27, 2009)

handlebar said:


> Isn't it just possible that a composer might want to simply retire from his work? Same as an accountant or lawyer might desire the rest of retirement?
> Why does there always have to be a detailed explanation of why a composer does this or that?
> 
> After working for as many years as he did perhaps he just said "I'm tired and want to stop composing".


I think you missed my point Jim. My point was this: it doesn't matter what their age, sex, gender, reasons for doing this or that are, the only thing that matters is the quality of their music. That was my point to Tapkaara. There are so many people against Sibelius' music and one argument people make is why did he stop composing for 30 years? Seeing as this question is perfectly harmless and also since Tapkaara is a huge Sibelius fan, I figured maybe he could answer the question for me since I did, after all, ask it with pure intentions.

I urge you to go back and re-read my post.


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## LatinClassics (Dec 27, 2009)

handlebar said:


> Exactly. It is a mere sociological question that,whether you like it or not, makes a huge impact on life and it's various facets.
> The original question was not what makes a composer's music "gay".It was simply something that intrigues humans of every culture.
> 
> Jim


When I say quality, I'm talking about how good the composer's music is to the listener. No, it doesn't matter to me whether a composer was gay or Black or a woman. These things don't really matter is what I'm trying to say, but what does matter is how their music makes us feel and what kind of enjoyment do we get from it.


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## handlebar (Mar 19, 2009)

LatinClassics said:


> I think you missed my point Jim. My point was this: it doesn't matter what their age, sex, gender, reasons for doing this or that are, the only the thing that matters is the quality of their music. That was my point to Tapkaara. There are so many people against Sibelius' music and one argument people make is why did he stop composing for 30 years?
> 
> I urge you to go back and re-read my post.


I followed the point just fine. And i agree. But as one who has never been against Sibelius and his music I don't have a dog in the fight.
I simply wanted to stress that a person's sexuality can prove to be a large part of their public lives and that it does indeed make a difference in their celebrity and work.
No, sexual preference and gender should not be a defining point in quality of music and whether one is a true creator of art. But it is and it does due to social mores,ideas,philosophy,culture and religion.

That was my point.


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## Tapkaara (Apr 18, 2006)

LatinClassics said:


> I'm certainly interested in a composer's life, especially what influenced their music, but in the grand scheme of things, it doesn't really matter to me, but that's just my own opinion.
> 
> Since you're such a big Sibelius fan, Tapkaara please explain to me why Sibelius didn't hardly compose another piece of music for his last 30 years? Does this have anything to do with the quality of his music? You see where I'm getting at? Some people would say that Sibelius ran out of good ideas, but I fail to see it this way. I love Sibelius and I look at what he composed as very high in quality.


Sibelius's silence the last 30 years of his life has nothing to do with the quality of his music. (Or this thread, by the way!!) BUT IT IS INTERESTING TO TALK ABOUT, nevertheless. It is always interesting to look at a composer's music in the context of their personal life. Sibelius loved oysters. He often had dreams he was in Japan. He believed in extra terrestrial life. These (true) pieces of trivia have nothing to do with the quality of his music. But they are fascinating tidbits which give us a small glimpse into the the world of the artist. He was very much into women, by the way.

But in a world where homosexuality and bisexuality is not universally accepted, the (alternative) sexual orientation of a famous composer can be an interesting topic to discuss because we are better able to put the artist's life into a context. I do not think anyone is claiming that one's sexuality has ANY bearing on the quality of their art. You seem to be offended by this notion, which is not even being argued here.


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## LatinClassics (Dec 27, 2009)

Tapkaara said:


> But in a world where homosexuality and bisexuality is not universally accepted, the (alternative) sexual orientation of a famous composer can be an interesting topic to discuss because we are better able to put the artist's life into a context. I do not think anyone is claiming that one's sexuality has ANY bearing on the quality of their art. You seem to be offended by this notion, which is not even being argued here.


I'm not aruging with anyone. I'm just curious what this thread has to do with whether or not we enjoy a given composer's music?

Does you knowing that Sibelius liked to eat oysters have any bearing on whether or not you enjoy his music?

I'm not offended, Tapkaara, I'm just a curious, question-asking individual. Does this offend you?


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## handlebar (Mar 19, 2009)

We live in an era of increasing freedoms. Freedom is a living,breathing entity. And with that comes the decision to open our lives to others and share said freedoms of expression,religion,etc,etc.

This 20th century became one of rights struggles. And the option to proclaim one's sexual preference to the world became a tool of social and personal expression. Composers were not alone here as Copland,Diamond and Thomson were tireless advocates for gay rights from coast to coast. They did this at a time when it was not "popular" or "chic" to do so. Now we see some wear the mantle of such expression simply to be part of the in crowd. 

I have always been very interested in sociology and human sexuality (I minored in them) and together they form a substantial slice of human existence. The Kinsey reports as well as others that followed didn't address occupational or social strata,thereby paving the way for more detailed analysis 40 years later. These are fascinating studies that can be read or researched within various societies such as the current Kinsey Institute and many others. 

As time goes on these "alternative" lifestyles are becoming more mainstream. What I'm curious of is how a persons preference and lifestyle affect the composer within and the art that speaks from the artist.


And yes, I agree that a person's sexual preference has NOTHING to do with whether I like his or her music. But to some people it might. I knew someone who would not listen to Tchaikovsky due to his lifestyle and homosexuality. Some might take offense to that but it IS their preference to listen to what they want.
That is freedom.

I don't hold that view though. if I like it,so be it.

And I DO like Sibelius


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## Tapkaara (Apr 18, 2006)

LatinClassics said:


> I'm not aruging with anyone. I'm just curious what this thread has to do with whether or not we enjoy a given composer's music?
> 
> Does you knowing that Sibelius liked to eat oysters have any bearing on whether or not you enjoy his music?
> 
> I'm not offended, Tapkaara, I'm just a curious, question-asking individual. Does this offend you?


I am not arguing either and I am not trying to become your enemy, but I think you are completely missing the point of this thread. Oh well, if we were all on the same page, it would be a boring book.


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## handlebar (Mar 19, 2009)

Tapkaara said:


> Oh well, if we were all on the same page, it would be a boring book.


Here ,here!! Well put.


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## LatinClassics (Dec 27, 2009)

handlebar said:


> And yes, I agree that a person's sexual preference has NOTHING to do with whether I like his or her music. But to some people it might. I knew someone who would not listen to Tchaikovsky due to his lifestyle and homosexuality. Some might take offense to that but it IS their preference to listen to what they want.
> That is freedom.
> 
> I don't hold that view though. if I like it,so be it.
> ...


If I like a composer, I like them because their music touches me, not because they were gay or Spanish or a woman. I think people who hold these kinds of things over a composer's head are seriously missing the point of listening to music in the first place, but as you said, it is their preference. A rather foolish one I might add.


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## handlebar (Mar 19, 2009)

LatinClassics said:


> If I like a composer, I like them because their music touches me, not because they were gay or Spanish or a woman. I think people who hold these kinds of things over a composer's head are seriously missing the point of listening to music in the first place, but as you said, it is their preference. A rather foolish one I might add.


Actually I would not always agree with that. For instance: The music of a man that molests children is something I would not enjoy,knowing full well what that person did. In fact I know of this instance in a rock band of the last 20 years .No, the music does not denote what he does in his personal life but ,for myself,that music would NOT be enjoyable to me knowing full well that the creep who had composed it did so after engaging in his disgusting acts. So therefore I DID judge him by his personal life and what he did. 
Same goes for many heavy metal bands that I once thought were decent. Until revelations from the members detailing things that I did not agree with.
It all comes down to personal preference and how we are shaped as humans.


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## Tapkaara (Apr 18, 2006)

LatinClassics said:


> If I like a composer, I like them because their music touches me, not because they were gay or Spanish or a woman. I think people who hold these kinds of things over a composer's head are seriously missing the point of listening to music in the first place, but as you said, it is their preference. A rather foolish one I might add.


What about music by a gay Spanish woman??


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## handlebar (Mar 19, 2009)

Tapkaara said:


> What about music by a gay Spanish woman??




Jim


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## LatinClassics (Dec 27, 2009)

Tapkaara said:


> What about music by a gay Spanish woman??


Absolutely, if the music touches me, then that is fine by me.


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## LatinClassics (Dec 27, 2009)

handlebar said:


> Actually I would not always agree with that. For instance: The music of a man that molests children is something I would not enjoy,knowing full well what that person did. In fact I know of this instance in a rock band of the last 20 years .No, the music does not denote what he does in his personal life but ,for myself,that music would NOT be enjoyable to me knowing full well that the creep who had composed it did so after engaging in his disgusting acts. So therefore I DID judge him by his personal life and what he did.
> Same goes for many heavy metal bands that I once thought were decent. Until revelations from the members detailing things that I did not agree with.
> It all comes down to personal preference and how we are shaped as humans.


Some very good points, Jim. This is why I don't read too much about the composer's life, because I might find out something like this!

If one of my favorite composers did something like this, then yes of course I would view them in a new light, because they're going against something that absolutely horrific and tragic. Homosexuality isn't hurting people, but doing something like you just described is just sickening.


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## Romantic Geek (Dec 25, 2009)

You know this is one of the hot growing topics in music theory right now.


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## Argus (Oct 16, 2009)

handlebar said:


> Actually I would not always agree with that. For instance: The music of a man that molests children is something I would not enjoy,knowing full well what that person did. In fact I know of this instance in a rock band of the last 20 years .No, the music does not denote what he does in his personal life but ,for myself,that music would NOT be enjoyable to me knowing full well that the creep who had composed it did so after engaging in his disgusting acts. So therefore I DID judge him by his personal life and what he did.
> Same goes for many heavy metal bands that I once thought were decent. Until revelations from the members detailing things that I did not agree with.
> It all comes down to personal preference and how we are shaped as humans.


Let me guess who you're talking about. I'm going to opt for Gary Glitter, Michael Jackson or ex-Judas Priest drummer Dave Holland.

I seperate the art from the human and judge the two independently. Wagner was probably a right knob yet it doesn't stop me from enjoying some of his work, conversely, I may like a person like Taylor Swift based on her character even though I dislike her music.

Doesn't that thread Aramis pointed out pretty much cover all topics that can be discussed in this thread.


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## handlebar (Mar 19, 2009)

Argus said:


> Let me guess who you're talking about. I'm going to opt for Gary Glitter, Michael Jackson or ex-Judas Priest drummer Dave Holland.
> 
> I seperate the art from the human and judge the two independently. Wagner was probably a right knob yet it doesn't stop me from enjoying some of his work, conversely, I may like a person like Taylor Swift based on her character even though I dislike her music.
> 
> Doesn't that thread Aramis pointed out pretty much cover all topics that can be discussed in this thread.


Actually I was thinking of not only the two aforementioned examples but also of the some local groups that had issues as such. 
Delving into the backgrounds of the composer is an elementary thing for me as I want to know what makes them tick and compose as they do.Just like taking apart a watch or computer to see how the marvelous tasks perfromed are indeed accomplished.
If i take a composer strictly on merits of music only and not on the person as a whole it seems superficial to me as the composer is truly (usually) giving his life and all to his/her art.
The resulting works are part of him,like an appendage that needs to be understood.

I love to read autobiographies and biographies for such insight.

And yes, the previous thread does. IO started this thread without checking back or remembering that I had been of the previous one. Age is creeping up on me. Forgetfulness is here to stay


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## david johnson (Jun 25, 2007)

i detested the 'out classics series' concept of sony cd's some years ago. bisexual composers were claimed to be homosexual. dishonest marketing.


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## handlebar (Mar 19, 2009)

david johnson said:


> i detested the 'out classics series' concept of sony cd's some years ago. bisexual composers were claimed to be homosexual. dishonest marketing.


Ditto. As if there is a truly gay music that only the GLBT crowd will listen to.

Jim


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## Argus (Oct 16, 2009)

handlebar said:


> Ditto. As if there is a truly gay music that only the GLBT crowd will listen to.
> 
> Jim


Scissor Sisters?


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## rojo (May 26, 2006)

handlebar said:


> I don't remember reading of such a question so why not:
> 
> How many composers were gay/lesbian/bi,etc?And how many had identity issues with their gender?
> 
> ...


There was a discussion about Tchaikovsky's sexual orientation over at MIMF a couple of years ago. There are a couple of interesting links in the thread itself as well.

I don't know of any publication that lists all the composers who were gay, or who may have been gay; one would think such a work would exist though.

Not sure what you mean by 'identity issues with their gender'; do you mean like Wendy Carlos?

http://www.magle.dk/music-forums/2906-tchaikovskys-heterosexuality.html

(Btw, not directed at anyone in particular, but MJ is not a child molester. )


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## Polednice (Sep 13, 2009)

As I was reading this thread, a vague shadow of a quotation popped into my mind. I can't remember who said it or when, but I recall that it was something along the lines of almost all artists (he/she may specifically have been referring to poets) before the 20th century apparently being heterosexual, yet, from the 20th century, one could hardly be considered an artist/poet if you weren't gay.

Obviously, this was just a sound-bite style statement from someone who almost certainly wasn't looking at it from an academic perspective, nor do I know whether it's supposed to carry a disapproving tone (I don't know how old the quotation is), but I think it raises an interesting question about the sexuality of artists. It has always seemed to me that homosexuals/bisexuals are disproportionately predominant in the creative arts - or at least people who are/were open to 'alternative' (I hate that word) sexualities - which may say something about what draws people to be creative, or what allows them the capacity to create.

I imagine that there were many more closeted artists pre-20th century than we might at first assume; but perhaps the prevalence of LGBT artists in the modern era is rather a by-product of the increasing feminisation of the creative arts (perhaps, again, more specifically poetry). I don't know!


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