# Apology



## BurningDesire (Jul 15, 2012)

It was never my intention to anger or upset anybody. I am sorry if I have hurt anybody's feelings. My opinions on Mozart are genuine, I was not trolling or trying to start a fight, nor was I only saying it to raise up other composers that I do like. I am sorry if it came off that way, and that it bothered anybody or made me seem like liar, but I promise that was not my intent. My opinions on Mozart still stand, and if you feel so inclined, I am quite open to suggestions of pieces to listen to that would show me how great you believe him to be. I love listening to music I haven't heard before.

As I have said, on multiple occasions, I do not dislike Mozart. I do not dislike his music. I like pretty much everything I've heard by him, there are just some things that I think aren't very interesting in many of those pieces (things that are common to many from the Classical period), and because of that, I disagree with the opinions that place him above so many other composers (or seem to, from my perspective). I am fine with whether you think Mozart is the best, or you think he's the worst or anywhere in between, I just might disagree with you, that's all. I'm not only about modern music. I am open to, and love alot of older, more traditional things. I love Bach. I love Beethoven. The Romantic period is probably my overall favorite period of music. 

I am also sorry for calling people lazy, I really wasn't meaning to be hurtful with that comment, I'm lazy myself with certain things. I thought it gave people a bit more credit than saying that the music is beyond their comprehension. I was meaning that people who didn't like it at first could grow to like it alot with some effort, but I am sorry to all who were hurt by me calling them lazy. I don't like to hurt people's feelings. There are times when I have posted things in jest, or sarcastically, and I'm sorry if anybody took offense to those. I really am.

That is the honest truth.

-BD~


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## brianwalker (Dec 9, 2011)




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## TrazomGangflow (Sep 9, 2011)

It's quite alright. Everyone has their own tastes.


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## Kopachris (May 31, 2010)

I believe this is applicable to the current situation:


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## mtmailey (Oct 21, 2011)

BurningDesire said:


> It was never my intention to anger or upset anybody. I am sorry if I have hurt anybody's feelings. My opinions on Mozart are genuine, I was not trolling or trying to start a fight, nor was I only saying it to raise up other composers that I do like. I am sorry if it came off that way, and that it bothered anybody or made me seem like liar, but I promise that was not my intent. My opinions on Mozart still stand, and if you feel so inclined, I am quite open to suggestions of pieces to listen to that would show me how great you believe him to be. I love listening to music I haven't heard before.
> 
> As I have said, on multiple occasions, I do not dislike Mozart. I do not dislike his music. I like pretty much everything I've heard by him, there are just some things that I think aren't very interesting in many of those pieces (things that are common to many from the Classical period), and because of that, I disagree with the opinions that place him above so many other composers (or seem to, from my perspective). I am fine with whether you think Mozart is the best, or you think he's the worst or anywhere in between, I just might disagree with you, that's all. I'm not only about modern music. I am open to, and love alot of older, more traditional things. I love Bach. I love Beethoven. The Romantic period is probably my overall favorite period of music.
> 
> ...


Do not feel bad certain people just can not stand the truth,they do not like it when people are right.


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## Toddlertoddy (Sep 17, 2011)

mtmailey said:


> Do not feel bad certain people just can not stand the truth,they do not like it when people are right.


Seriously? I thought we got past this. No wonder people think classical music fans are self-righteous snobs.


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## neoshredder (Nov 7, 2011)

I apologize for throwing you under the bus with the current situation. I just wanted to differentiate from being labeled a disrespectful whippersnapper that some have labeled us 3 as. I think the best thing to do is talk about the Composers that you really like and try to avoid any negative comments about the Composers others really like. Just like you probably wouldn't want them to disrespect your favorite Composer.


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## Arsakes (Feb 20, 2012)

Apology accepted rosh! 
I guess no one get it soon..


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

Wtf? Do I have to apologise now?


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## Jeremy Marchant (Mar 11, 2010)

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> Wtf? Do I have to apologise now?


Probably, just to be on the safe side...


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)




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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

But in all seriousness, if I have offended anyone I am genuinely sorry. I had no intention of causing such distress. BurningDesire and I both have exactly the same opinions on Mozart and just because we think of his music in that way doesn't mean we are insulting anyone. I may have said some things that could have been interpreted as "trolling" but I don't want to offend anyone in that way. I admit that I can be extremely arrogant when making my point and I'll try not to from now on.


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## Jared (Jul 9, 2012)

BurningDesire said:


> It was never my intention to anger or upset anybody. I am sorry if I have hurt anybody's feelings.


hey BD...

...I don't think you have really offended anyone, so please don't feel too badly about things. Speaking personally as a slightly older 'new' forum member, I actually think it's great that younger members like you and CoAG (who frankly should start every post he writes with an apology, just to be on the safe side  ) can become so passionate about Classical Music in all its forms, and have a place like this to be able to respectfully air them.

Mozart is a strange beast.... I think his music is a little bit like gardening, antiques and stately homes... an appreciation of these things is not often found in the young, but some kind of genetic mutation happens to people in their 50's whereby his charms start to grow on them. This is absolutely NOT to say 'that you are too young to understand', but I think there is a reason why, when Mozart and Mendelssohn concerts are programmed, the average age of the audience is about 75... 

Now, I am someone who really enjoys Mozart. He'll never be my favourite, but I constantly hear something new and delightful in his music, and never cease to be charmed by it (apart from Eine kleine Nachtmusik of course, which I stuggle to acquire any enthusiasm for) but I can understand why he isn't everyone's cup of tea and am happy to accept this.

I work on the principle that life is short and art is long, and you can't possible get around to hearing everything, even if you start listening to Classical Music when you are 12, which I certainly didn't. I also believe that you can't like everything and shouldn't be made to feel guilty for not appreciating something... maybe it will click in time, maybe it won't, but don't let it upset you.

Anyway, here's my guilty secret. You'll never see me post in a Debussy appreciation thread because, I simply don't appreciate his music. Believe me, I've tried but given it up as a bad job, so please don't go recommending any of his music for me to try, because it would be a dead loss. Now, I've probably offended half the forum with this admission, several of whom I'm sure will decide they don't want to be friends with me any more, but I fully accept that the problem lies with me, and not Claude who was no doubt a genius. I have come to terms with the fact that deep down, I have a genetic Debussy appreciation deficiency problem, which may wane with age, but it may not... we shall see.

So, don't worry about disagreeing with people too much and I'm quite sure you haven't offended anyone. I'm sure you'll become a greatly valued member of the forum and will learn a great deal from others, as in turn, you will have knowledge to impart.

Enjoy your music and enjoy the company of others... 

:tiphat:


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## Sonata (Aug 7, 2010)

Jared said:


> Now, I am someone who really enjoys Mozart. He'll never be my favourite, but I constantly hear something new and delightful in his music, and never cease to be charmed by it *(apart from Eine kleine Nachtmusik of course, which I stuggle to acquire any enthusiasm for) *but I can understand why he isn't everyone's cup of tea and am happy to accept this.
> 
> Anyway, here's my guilty secret. *You'll never see me post in a Debussy appreciation thread because, I simply don't appreciate his music. *Believe me, I've tried but given it up as a bad job, so please don't go recommending any of his music for me to try, because it would be a dead loss. Now, I've probably offended half the forum with this admission, several of whom I'm sure will decide they don't want to be friends with me any more, but I fully accept that the problem lies with me, and not Claude who was no doubt a genius. I have come to terms with the fact that deep down, I have a genetic Debussy appreciation deficiency problem, which may wane with age, but it may not... we shall see.
> 
> :tiphat:


I just had to nod in agreement at the highlighted posts. Eine Kleine Nachtmusik doesn't do much for me. I think I've made more headway than you on Debussy (particularly Suite Bergamasque and the Nocturnes) but even though it sounds like Ravel is from a technical standpoint considered an inferior composer, I fine he clicks with me much more than Debussy's music does.


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

Jared said:


> hey BD...
> 
> ...I don't think you have really offended anyone, so please don't feel too badly about things. Speaking personally as a slightly older 'new' forum member, I actually think it's great that younger members like you and CoAG (who frankly should start every post he writes with an apology, just to be on the safe side  ) can become so passionate about Classical Music in all its forms, and have a place like this to be able to respectfully air them.
> 
> ...


If you weren't offended fine. but speak for yourself!
There is nothing whatever wrong with disagreeing with another person but it depends how you do it.
I'm a hell of a lot older member incidentally, but BD has apologised so let's have an end to it.


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## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

Jared said:


> [...]
> So, don't worry about disagreeing with people too much and I'm quite sure you haven't offended *anyone*. I'm sure you'll become a greatly valued member of the forum and will learn a great deal from others, as in turn, you will have knowledge to impart.
> 
> Enjoy your music and enjoy the company of others...
> ...


That word I highlighted is a typo, right? You meant to type 'everyone'?


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## Very Senior Member (Jul 16, 2009)

Jared said:


> So, don't worry about disagreeing with people too much and *I'm quite sure you haven't offended anyone.* I'm sure you'll become a greatly valued member of the forum and will learn a great deal from others, as in turn, you will have knowledge to impart.


What brand of rose-tinted glasses do you wear?


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## Crudblud (Dec 29, 2011)

Very Senior Member said:


> What brand of rose-tinted glasses do you wear?


Probably the brand that enables him to acknowledge when someone owns up to something. If you don't want to forgive and forget then you shouldn't be posting in this thread.


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## TheBamf (Apr 21, 2012)

The discussion, the passion and threads like these makes this forum very special. Good on you BurningDesire, very mature of you to write this.


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## Jared (Jul 9, 2012)

hmmm... I think Bamf's post here is spot on, really. 

Someone with genuine intent to cause disruption and offence would never have written a public apology of this nature, whereas someone with strongly held views and a real passion for Classical Music would, if they valued what the site has to offer, valued the opinions of others and felt in reflection that they might have over-stepped the mark.

We all say things we later regret from time to time, and as we all know, it is easier to post things we later regret, owing to our emotional distance from the receiver, especially in the heat of discussion.

For me, the most important thing here is the provision of a site where teenagers and students can air their passions on classical music and build their knowledge base, for which a little bit of leniency and understanding needs to be given.

and btw, my rose tinted spectacles are Jasper Conrans, I'll have you know..


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## Crudblud (Dec 29, 2011)

Jared said:


> and btw, my rose tinted spectacles are Jasper Conrans, I'll have you know..


You know what they call him? Crazy Conran. I've borrowed some of his stuff before... big mistake! It starts with the angry letters that are made even more menacing by his penchant for aesthetically pleasing italic calligraphy, but then it's the phone calls "hey Dan, how are you doing Dan, can't find my pants Dan, do you know where my pants are Dan? I know where my pants are, Dan, and I will get them back... Dan" and it just escalates and escalates.

For your own safety, give the man his glasses and distance yourself. He knows karate, voodoo too.


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## BurningDesire (Jul 15, 2012)

Jared said:


> hey BD...
> 
> ...I don't think you have really offended anyone, so please don't feel too badly about things. Speaking personally as a slightly older 'new' forum member, I actually think it's great that younger members like you and CoAG (who frankly should start every post he writes with an apology, just to be on the safe side  ) can become so passionate about Classical Music in all its forms, and have a place like this to be able to respectfully air them.
> 
> ...


Thank you for the kind words ^^ Actually, I really do like Felix Mendelssohn, his music is gorgeous, and is it odd that I actually really like Eine Kleine Nacktmusik? XD Like, I really enjoy that piece compared to many of the other Mozart pieces I've heard (I also love some of his concerti, and the 40th and 41st symphonies). Also, its hard for me to comprehend somebody not liking _anything_ by Debussy XD the music just brings a joy in me that I can't describe with words.


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## Jared (Jul 9, 2012)

Crudblud said:


> Does he want them back?


they say 'the night has a thousand eyes' but judging by the number of pairs I've seen with his name on, I think he must have at least a thousand and three...


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## Jared (Jul 9, 2012)

BurningDesire said:


> Also, its hard for me to comprehend somebody not liking _anything_ by Debussy XD the music just brings a joy in me that I can't describe with words.


I do accept that this is a major character deficiency on my part, and something I will grow out of, in time...


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## BurningDesire (Jul 15, 2012)

Sonata said:


> I just had to nod in agreement at the highlighted posts. Eine Kleine Nachtmusik doesn't do much for me. I think I've made more headway than you on Debussy (particularly Suite Bergamasque and the Nocturnes) but even though it sounds like Ravel is from a technical standpoint considered an inferior composer, I fine he clicks with me much more than Debussy's music does.


I've never heard anybody call Ravel a "technically inferior composer". To me, that notion is kinda silly by modern standards, where music is no longer glued to a single strict set of rules.


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## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

BurningDesire said:


> I've never heard anybody call Ravel a "technically inferior composer". To me, that notion is kinda silly by modern standards, where music is no longer glued to a single strict set of rules.


Yeah... Ravel's musical imagination and Debussy's dwelt in different gardens, and Debussy's garden grew more exotic plants; but Ravel's music is as imaginative and well constructed for listening (which is all I do with music) as anyone's.

BTW I know (via correspondence) a very knowledgeable and versatile music lover who has never been able to 'make the music work' out of either Ravel's or Debussy's. It's possible to be that way and still be a Good Person.


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## BurningDesire (Jul 15, 2012)

Hilltroll72 said:


> Yeah... Ravel's musical imagination and Debussy's dwelt in different gardens, and Debussy's garden grew more exotic plants; but Ravel's music is as imaginative and well constructed for listening (which is all I do with music) as anyone's.


And his orchestration is genius. (so is Debussy's :3)


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## aleazk (Sep 30, 2011)

Ravel a "technically inferior composer"???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

What the hell!!!!!!!!!!!!???????????????????????????????????????????????????



The world has been upside down for me?


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## Sonata (Aug 7, 2010)

Indeed, I find Ravel's music very colorful and fluid


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## Crudblud (Dec 29, 2011)

I don't know how anyone could find Ravel the lesser of the two, but then I don't understand why they would compare them in the first place.


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## BurningDesire (Jul 15, 2012)

Crudblud said:


> I don't know how anyone could find Ravel the lesser of the two, but then I don't understand why they would compare them in the first place.


*whispers* it might be that their music has many similarities, because of the colors and materials they both tended to favor. Its like comparing Mozart and Haydn, who favored similar colors and materials in their work, even though they had their differences.


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## Ramako (Apr 28, 2012)

BurningDesire said:


> *whispers* it might be that their music has many similarities ... like comparing Mozart and Haydn...


It's a good job I didn't hear that!


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## Crudblud (Dec 29, 2011)

BurningDesire said:


> *whispers* it might be that their music has many similarities, because of the colors and materials they both tended to favor. Its like comparing Mozart and Haydn, who favored similar colors and materials in their work, even though they had their differences.


I don't agree. Honestly I see very little similarity between Debussy and Ravel, and they only crossed similar territory occasionally as far as I'm concerned.

It's not quite as ridiculous as people who compare Zappa and Beefheart, but it's up there.


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

BurningDesire said:


> It was never my intention to anger or upset anybody. I am sorry if I have hurt anybody's feelings. My opinions on Mozart are genuine, I was not trolling or trying to start a fight, nor was I only saying it to raise up other composers that I do like.
> 
> I am also sorry for calling people lazy, I really wasn't meaning to be hurtful with that comment, I'm lazy myself with certain things. I thought it gave people a bit more credit than saying that the music is beyond their comprehension. I was meaning that people who didn't like it at first could grow to like it alot with some effort, but I am sorry to all who were hurt by me calling them lazy. I don't like to hurt people's feelings. There are times when I have posted things in jest, or sarcastically, and I'm sorry if anybody took offense to those. I really am.
> 
> ...


Am I the only one who is picking up that BD is not apologizing for her comments, but apologizing for people taking offense to her comments?

To clarify, are you apologizing and withdrawing your view that people who don't like modern classical are lazy, or are you apologizing for voicing that view while you internally maintain it?


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## Ramako (Apr 28, 2012)

Couchie said:


> Am I the only one who is picking up that BD is not apologizing for her comments, but apologizing for people taking offense to her comments?
> 
> To clarify, are you apologizing and withdrawing your view that people who don't like modern classical are lazy, or are you apologizing for voicing that view while you internally maintain it?


Is this helpful? No (because sometimes a rhetorical question just isn't explicit enough)


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## aleazk (Sep 30, 2011)

Couchie said:


> Am I the only one who is picking up that BD is not apologizing for her comments, but apologizing for people taking offense to her comments?
> 
> To clarify, are you apologizing and withdrawing your view that people who don't like modern classical are lazy, or are you apologizing for voicing that view while you internally maintain it?


I understood that it was this second option, which seems fine to me, if you want to have views that can be potentially offensive to others but at the same time your main intention is not to offend for the sake of offend, I think is valid to make the declaration that your intention is to share your view and nothing more. I find ridiculous the idea that you can't have certain view just because it can be offensive to certain people.


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

aleazk said:


> I understood that it was this second option, which seems fine to me, if you want to have views that can be potentially offensive to others but at the same time your main intention is not to offend for the sake of offend, I think is valid to make the declaration that your intention is to share your view and nothing more. I find ridiculous the idea that you can't have certain view just because it can be offensive to certain people.


Surely it's more ridiculous to apologize for voicing views you truly have even though you're aware they're offensive? What are you apologizing for... that the offended party are wimps and you have no spine?


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## Lenfer (Aug 15, 2011)

Couchie said:


> Am I the only one who is picking up that BD is not apologizing for her comments, but apologizing for people taking offense to her comments?
> 
> To clarify, are you apologizing and withdrawing your view that people who don't like modern classical are lazy, or are you apologizing for voicing that view while you internally maintain it?


You can be sorry for offending someone when that was not your intention but still stand by your "offending" comments/views.


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

Lenfer said:


> You can be sorry for offending someone when that was not your intention but still stand by your "offending" comments/views.


Again, this a backhanded apology, essentially "I'm sorry you're offended", which designates the issue as being with the offended party.


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## mmsbls (Mar 6, 2011)

Perhaps the apology is more for the manner in which the views were expressed? I doubt anyone really cares if someone on TC doesn't think Mozart is a great composer. I doubt if anyone cares that someone finds his music boring (Is that really possible? ). Maybe some were upset that they felt they were called lazy. Again that could have simply been worded differently.


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

mmsbls said:


> Perhaps the apology is more for the manner in which the views were expressed? I doubt anyone really cares if someone on TC doesn't think Mozart is a great composer. I doubt if anyone cares that someone finds his music boring (Is that really possible? ). Maybe some were upset that they felt they were called lazy. Again that could have simply been worded differently.


This is why I'm asking. There is no indication that BD apologizes for what I found offensive, her belief that I have a 'deficiency' if I don't like the music she likes (call it laziness, or whatever... is there a nice way to express that?) If she is merely apologizing for my offense, it is not hers to apologize for.


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## Lenfer (Aug 15, 2011)

Couchie said:


> Again, this a backhanded apology, essentially "I'm sorry you're offended", which designates the issue as being with the offended party.


It's not backhanded if that's what she is sorry for. If a fat person asks me if they look fat and I say yes and then apologise for hurting their feelings it still doesn't change the fact they're fat. But I can still be sorry for upsetting them.


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## mtmailey (Oct 21, 2011)

Toddlertoddy said:


> Seriously? I thought we got past this. No wonder people think classical music fans are self-righteous snobs.


 If people think i am self-righteous that is fine,but truth be told i am a realist.I really do not care what others think of me.


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## BurningDesire (Jul 15, 2012)

Couchie said:


> Am I the only one who is picking up that BD is not apologizing for her comments, but apologizing for people taking offense to her comments?
> 
> To clarify, are you apologizing and withdrawing your view that people who don't like modern classical are lazy, or are you apologizing for voicing that view while you internally maintain it?


I do not entirely abandon that view, because I believe there is some truth in it. But, I wasn't meaning to offend anybody with it. Laziness isn't a deficiency, its just _not_ putting forth effort you are well within your means and power to do, simply a personal choice. I used this term to describe the kind of people who are supposedly really passionate about classical music, but then I see them entirely write-off an ENTIRE CENTURY of the artform, or whole schools of musical thought or composers and accuse them of being pretentious and all kinds of other invective that to me, showed they didn't really understand the music, because I had similar reactions when I first heard some of it. I didn't really think it was a particularly mean thing to say, but people react differently to things you say than you might expect, and you can't really tell things like 'tone of voice' through text. I don't like hurting people's feelings, so I'm sorry that that happened, I really am. I'm not one to enjoy unhappiness in others, especially if I've caused it.


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

Lenfer said:


> It's not backhanded if that's what she is sorry for. If a fat person asks me if they look fat and I say yes and then apologise for hurting their feelings it still doesn't change the fact they're fat. But I can still be sorry for upsetting them.


Here you've switched the situation from BD expressing a deeply held offensive opinion at her leisure to this dichotomy of having to choose between a seemingly unavoidably offensive remark vs lying when asked outright to obscure the issue and make it more palatable. Presumably you would not go up to a fat person and call them fat unprovoked.


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## GGluek (Dec 11, 2011)

Jared said:


> hey BD...
> 
> (apart from Eine kleine Nachtmusik of course, which I stuggle to acquire any enthusiasm for)
> :tiphat:


I can exactly remember the occasion when I was all of 15, and said to myself: "I don't care if I ever hear Eine Kleine Nachtmusik ever again." And I still feel that way 45 years later.


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

BurningDesire said:


> I do not entirely abandon that view, because I believe there is some truth in it. But, I wasn't meaning to offend anybody with it. Laziness isn't a deficiency, its just _not_ putting forth effort you are well within your means and power to do, simply a personal choice. I used this term to describe the kind of people who are supposedly really passionate about classical music, but then I see them entirely write-off an ENTIRE CENTURY of the artform, or whole schools of musical thought or composers and accuse them of being pretentious and all kinds of other invective that to me, showed they didn't really understand the music, because I had similar reactions when I first heard some of it.


So basically there's some truth to the view we're all a bit lazy and stupid for not liking the 20cent repertoire, but you're sorry for any offense, unintended of course. http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-apology_apology



BurningDesire said:


> I didn't really think it was a particularly mean thing to say, but people react differently to things you say than you might expect, and you can't really tell things like 'tone of voice' through text. I don't like hurting people's feelings, so I'm sorry that that happened, I really am. I'm not one to enjoy unhappiness in others, especially if I've caused it.


Personally, I love a little schadenfreude now and then. To each their own.


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

aleazk said:


> I understood that it was this second option, which seems fine to me, if you want to have views that can be potentially offensive to others but at the same time your main intention is not to offend for the sake of offend, I think is valid to make the declaration that your intention is to share your view and nothing more. I find ridiculous the idea that you can't have certain view just because it can be offensive to certain people.


This really is painful and you are missing the point (on purpose?). You can have views but you should not put them out in an OFFENSIVE MANNER.


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

Jared said:


> hmmm... I think Bamf's post here is spot on, really.
> 
> Someone with genuine intent to cause disruption and offence would never have written a public apology of this nature, whereas someone with strongly held views and a real passion for Classical Music would, if they valued what the site has to offer, valued the opinions of others and felt in reflection that they might have over-stepped the mark.
> 
> ...


That could be true unless you get the impression that they are not in the least interested in listening to anyone else.


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

The most charitable course of action with an apology is to accept it gracefully and then move on. You will soon see from the apologiser's further behaviour whether it is genuine.


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