# Recordings Canceled or Modified...



## The Wolf (Apr 28, 2017)

Like the thread in the Opera section, but this time with non operatic recordigns:

https://www.talkclassical.com/48987-recordings-canceled-modified.html

In this case, there is no previous compilation list of changes or cancellations, so you can mention which cases are known.

I'll start with the ones I remember:

- Verdi: Requiem by Reiner (RCA) with Rysanek & Simionato (reeplaced by Price & Elias)

- Beethoven Cycle by Reiner (RCA)…the company was postponing the recording sessions and only recorded 6 symphonies in a period of 9 years

- Stravinski: "Le sacre du printemps" by Reiner (RCA)…for health reasons, he canceled the series of concerts scheduled in the early 60's and therefore the studio recording. It was to be his first and only approach to the work

- Tchaikovsky: Symphonie No. 5 by Reiner (RD)…for health reasons, he was replaced by Jascha Horenstein

https://books.google.com.mx/books?i...age&q=fritz reiner the rite of spring&f=false

https://books.google.com.mx/books?i...fritz reiner tchaikovsky 5 horenstein&f=false

- Beethoven: Emperor Concerto by Kleiber/Michelangeli (DGG)

https://books.google.com.mx/books?i...iber michelangeli beethoven emperor 5&f=false

- Holst: "The Planets" by Boult (EMI - last version in the 70's)…during the recording sessions, a digital / experimental take was made, but it was never published by EMI / Warner, and it is assumed that it still rests in its files

- Unfinished projects of Sir Thomas Beecham: Haydn (The Creation and The Seasons), Dvořák (Stabat Mater), Berlioz (Messe des Morts / Requiem), Schubert (Mass No. 5), Mozart (Great Mass in C minor), Beethoven ( Missa Solemnis and the symphonies).

"Beecham y EMI: The Rice Hotel memo" (pdf, from pag. 104)

http://etheses.whiterose.ac.uk/2018/5/2_THESISMC4.pdf

And Some time ago I was informed, if I remember correctly, that Karajan presented to DGG a plan to record several symphonies of Shostakovich but the label only authorized the No. 10, that there was no market for the others.


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## Guest (Jul 2, 2019)

The Wolf said:


> And Some time ago I was informed, if I remember correctly, that Karajan presented to DGG a plan to record several symphonies of Shostakovich but the label only authorized the No. 10, that there was no market for the others.


As I heard the story it was EMI that passed in the 70's on the proposal to record several Shostakovich Symphonies. DG's recording of #10 was made before that, in the 60's after Karajan's tour of Russia including a performance of the 10th.

Too bad, it would have been interesting see what he would have made of them.


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

I would think that the Mahler 7th with Barbirolli and the Berlin Philharmonic would count. It was scheduled for recording in 1971 but unfortunately Barbirolli died in 1970.


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## amfortas (Jun 15, 2011)

There's John Culshaw's famous story of how his Decca team wanted a young, freshed-voice Siegfried for the Solti Ring. So instead of the veteran Wolfgang Windgassen, they went with the untried Ernst Kozub, only to find Kozub was unable to learn the music. At the last minute, they had to eat crow, explain their mistake to Windgassen, and ask him to step in. To his undying credit, Windgassen agreed, even breaking off a phone call with his agent before the terms were settled, so he could go record the first session.


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## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

One of the great losses happened when Bruno Walter died before getting to record the Mahler 3rd.


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## The Wolf (Apr 28, 2017)

Baron Scarpia said:


> As I heard the story it was EMI that passed in the 70's on the proposal to record several Shostakovich Symphonies. DG's recording of #10 was made before that, in the 60's after Karajan's tour of Russia including a performance of the 10th.
> 
> Too bad, it would have been interesting see what he would have made of them.


Totally agree...


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

The Wolf said:


> - Stravinski: "Le sacre du printemps" by Reiner (RCA)…for health reasons, he canceled the series of concerts scheduled in the early 60's and therefore the studio recording. It was to be his first and only approach to the work


What an unfortunate loss!! that one could have been cosmic!!


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## MarkW (Feb 16, 2015)

Richter's recording the Brahms B-flat concerto with the CSO was supposed to be with Reiner conducting, but again ill health prevented, so RCA flew in Leinsdorf.


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## Orfeo (Nov 14, 2013)

Myung-whun Chung was in his initial stage in recording Dvorak's symphonies under DG (with nos. I, II, IV, V, and IX left) before the promising project was cancelled (he had engagements with the Opera Bastille).

Neemi Jarvi's project of Steinberg's symphonies, again under DG, was halted (for reasons I'm not sure).


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

There was the Culshaw / Decca recording of Ballo (Verdi) when Bjorling had alcohol problems and Culshaw found it impossible to work with so the whole thing had to be postponed until Bergonzi could substitute, by which time Bjorling was dead.


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## NLAdriaan (Feb 6, 2019)

If withdrawn recordings also count, Zimerman obviously was in the position to withdraw his solo Brahms recordings, which already were issued by DG. Zimerman clearly didn't find them good enough. Funny thing is that collectors are fighting over each copy that comes up for sale at ridiculous prices:








Gunter Wand's (wonderful) last Bruckner cycle, with the BPO, was already planned to contain only symphonies 3-9, but this didn't work out, as Wand died before recording the 3rd and 6th.


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## NLAdriaan (Feb 6, 2019)

And there are many, many missed recording opportunities, because DG embarrassed Carlos Kleiber by issuing Tristan & Isolde, after using rehearsal tapes to fill the last gaps, because Kleiber walked out of the costly and lengthy recording sessions, because he was not happy with Rene Kollo. He would never make studio recordings again

Before that, already Beethoven's Emperor with ABM did fail, Dvorak 9 was cancelled because the score was not adapted to his instructions, a Ring (!) on EMI failed also and Othello and rumours of Falstaff (much later), it all didn't happen. The BPO (and even HvK) very much hoped that he would succeed HvK, but Kleiber didn't want to. A Heldenleben live recording was already cut by Sony, but Kleiber cancelled the release. And so on. 

Of course Kleiber was extremely problematic and unreasonable in everything. But it remains a shame that he did only record so little. There are some bootleg recordings available, but it can hardly substitute for what could have been.


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## geralmar (Feb 15, 2013)

I remember reading that although the orchestra and chorus were recorded in 1966, scheduling problems delayed the recording of Welles' narration for a full decade; hence the L.P. wasn't released until 1976.


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## Guest (Jul 9, 2019)

NLAdriaan said:


> And there are many, many missed recording opportunities, because DG embarrassed Carlos Kleiber by issuing Tristan & Isolde, after using rehearsal tapes to fill the last gaps, because Kleiber walked out of the costly and lengthy recording sessions, because he was not happy with Rene Kollo. He would never make studio recordings again
> 
> Before that, already Beethoven's Emperor with ABM did fail, Dvorak 9 was cancelled because the score was not adapted to his instructions, a Ring (!) on EMI failed also and Othello and rumours of Falstaff (much later), it all didn't happen. The BPO (and even HvK) very much hoped that he would succeed HvK, but Kleiber didn't want to. A Heldenleben live recording was already cut by Sony, but Kleiber cancelled the release. And so on.
> 
> Of course Kleiber was extremely problematic and unreasonable in everything. But it remains a shame that he did only record so little. There are some bootleg recordings available, but it can hardly substitute for what could have been.


I shed no tears for Kleiber missed "opportunities." He was an a**hole who never should have been allowed to waste the valuable time of world-class orchestras.


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## geralmar (Feb 15, 2013)

Although recorded in 1962, the recording was not issued until 1971. Szell refused to authorize release because of disputes he had with the orchestra. He died in 1970, whereupon Decca persuaded his widow to permit release.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Baron Scarpia said:


> I shed no tears for Kleiber missed "opportunities." He was an a**hole who never should have been allowed to waste the valuable time of world-class orchestras.


I was talking to my son, who is a professional musician, about Kleiber, and he couldn't believe the lack of professionalism. The point is that nothing in this world is perfect. Yes a brilliant conductor but an absolute a-h !!


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## geralmar (Feb 15, 2013)

Rostropovich was the scheduled soloist; but last minute problems required the substitution of Fournier. Rostropovich later recorded the concerto with Karajan.


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## mikeh375 (Sep 7, 2017)

There's a real peach of a story concerning Malcom Arnold, the BBC Symphony Orchestra, naked piano playing, a smashed up hotel restaurant, the Police, a police cell, plenty of booze (of course, it was Arnold), a frantic BBC producer and a cancelled recording, but I'm off to bed, so you'll all have to wait unless someone else knows it and can post it.......


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## NLAdriaan (Feb 6, 2019)

To all the 'honourable' members who are swearing on Carlos Kleiber: Has the world missed any accomplishment by you or by the 'professional' musician you quote? Or is it that you just didn't make a notable difference anywhere? Appalling words of nobody's are still nothing, empty shells, not the slightest breeze, gone forever, unnoticed.


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## Brahmsianhorn (Feb 17, 2017)

I had no idea there was a DG recording of Szell conducting the BPO.

I actually really like Kleiber’s Tristan, even more than Nilsson/Bohm on most days.

It’s a shame Walter Legge went with Karajan instead of Furtwangler to record the Brahms Requiem in 1947. Karajan did a fine job, but we lack therefore a good sounding Furtwangler rendition of a work which in his hands was sublime. There is a live recording that same year with the same soloists - Schwarzkopf and Hotter - from Lucerne which is of dismal sound quality even for the most dedicated Furtwangler fan.


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## mikeh375 (Sep 7, 2017)

Malcom Arnold...

A major recording deal with EMI went on the line due to his behaviour. I shall be as brief as possible as it's a long convoluted tale over several days. Arnold was booked to conduct some of his work with the Bournemouth Symphony Orchestra. (I mentioned the wrong band above..oops)

Dinner in a hotel on the eve of recording...

He started complaining about how ghastly it all looked, stood up, went to the piano, jumped up on it, pulled his pants down and danced to the piped music.
The next morning he was picked up by the manger of the Bournemouth symphony Orchestra, but he insisted on having a drink first and was consequently drunk for the first session. (The musos liked him though, deeming him a good conductor).

A meal the next evening in another restaurant.....

He butted in on a wedding celebration, buying champagne for everyone and drinking large quantities of theirs. Later he took his shirt off and then suddenly ran away, out of the restaurant, he was chased but not caught. He turned up much later with no explanation. The next morning, the BSO manager arrived to pick him up for the day's recording only to find Arnold in the process of being arrested by the police. He had gone berserk in the night, causing considerable damage and to quote an elderly lady.....

" I had been woken up by a great deal of noise and then my door opened. A naked man tip-toed across the room, kissed me and ran out."....

It was Arnold.

Fortunately EMI ascertained that there was enough recording done to salvage the venture for an LP , which turned out remarkably well giving the circumstances. But given previous trouble with Arnold, along with these latest incidents, EMI's enthusiastic support had been undermined.

Arnold was immediately sectioned and taken to a psychiatric hospital from the cell.

(source...Malcom Arnold: Rogue Genius by Anthony Meredith and Paul Harris--highly recommended).


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## Brahmsianhorn (Feb 17, 2017)

Heck148 said:


> What an unfortunate loss!! that one could have been cosmic!!


Speaking of Reiner, have you ever heard his Brahms 1st piano concerto with Serkin and Pittsburgh SO from 1946? I just discovered it and am floored! This is electricity on the level of Horowitz/Toscanini. I much prefer this to the mellower rendition with Szell in 1968.


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## Larkenfield (Jun 5, 2017)

Baron Scarpia said:


> I shed no tears for Kleiber missed "opportunities." He was an a**hole who never should have been allowed to waste the valuable time of world-class orchestras.


Really? The Vienna Phil didn't seem to mind when Klieber conducted their renown 1992 New Years concert. I enjoy it. How does one get into the position of doing that unless one is outstanding on the podium? The orchestra has to be willing to play for him.

Placedo Domino thought he was tops and many musicians considered him exceptionally gifted. He was reputedly a complicated man but I've never read that he was an a**hole except on this forum and fueled by heaven knows what.

The Beethoven recordings I've heard (5,6,7) sound outstanding even if the recorded sound quality of the 6th with Bayerisches Staatsorchester leaves something to be desired because it had to be remastered off a cassette. I find it rather thrilling, the intent and spirit behind it authentic... and there's never been a conductor who batted a 1000 his entire career anyway. But he didn't care for making commercial recordings and was sometimes viewed as being highly temperamental, which created problems for him. I believe it was more a matter of lacking confidence in himself and he preferred to record and perform when he was fresh and "hungry". I'm hearing his 6th at the moment and find it an exceptional live performance, and the audience reaction is tremendous at the end.

https://www.theguardian.com/music/1990/jan/01/classicalmusicandopera.artsfeatures






Klieber _ambiably_ rehearsing:


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## Reichstag aus LICHT (Oct 25, 2010)

Christoph von Dohnányi's unfinished Decca "Ring" with the splendid Cleveland Orchestra. Although they seem to have left some people cold, I enjoyed his recordings of _Das Rheingold_ and (especially) _Die Walküre_. I was looking forward to the rest but, alas, they never came.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

NLAdriaan said:


> To all the 'honourable' members who are swearing on Carlos Kleiber: Has the world missed any accomplishment by you or by the 'professional' musician you quote? Or is it that you just didn't make a notable difference anywhere? Appalling words of nobody's are still nothing, empty shells, not the slightest breeze, gone forever, unnoticed.


We are not talking about his musicianship or his talent but rather his character or lack of it. Having a huge talent does not give you the right to trample your fellow human beings the way Kleiber did. To walk out on a project because you are displeased. As a one-time teacher if my class displeased me I didn't just walk out although I felt like it quite a number of times! The things Kleiber did were just totally unprofessional - something that people went along with because of his talent. I could say the same about Glenn Gould and also artists like Michelangeli and Richter, the latter who had a habit of cancelling (as I knew to my cost having bought tickets) at the slightest whim.


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## Byron (Mar 11, 2017)

Larkenfield said:


> He was reputedly a complicated man but I've never read that he was an a**hole except on this forum and fueled by heaven knows what.


Parsifal for the course on a forum where users love making moral judgements and classifying people they've never even met.


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## The Wolf (Apr 28, 2017)

Baron Scarpia said:


> I shed no tears for Kleiber missed "opportunities." He was an a**hole who never should have been allowed to waste the valuable time of world-class orchestras.


+1.............


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## The Wolf (Apr 28, 2017)

DavidA said:


> I was talking to my son, who is a professional musician, about Kleiber, and he couldn't believe the lack of professionalism. The point is that nothing in this world is perfect. Yes a brilliant conductor but an absolute a-h !!


This lack of professionalism today (2019) = bye career...


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## wkasimer (Jun 5, 2017)

Reichstag aus LICHT said:


> Christoph von Dohnányi's unfinished Decca "Ring" with the splendid Cleveland Orchestra. Although they seem to have left some people cold, I enjoyed his recordings of _Das Rheingold_ and (especially) _Die Walküre_. I was looking forward to the rest but, alas, they never came.


I thought that Rheingold was fine, particularly the orchestral contribution, but Walkure was hampered by some poor casting, particularly among the women. But it's a shame that they pulled the plug - shortly after they did, Dohnanyi and the Clevelanders performed Siegfried in concert with Stig Anderson, Jane Eaglen, Robert Hale et al., which was broadcast. It wasn't perfect, but it certainly was more deserving of commercial posterity than the dreadful Walkure.


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## The Wolf (Apr 28, 2017)

geralmar said:


> Although recorded in 1962, the recording was not issued until 1971. Szell refused to authorize release because of disputes he had with the orchestra. He died in 1970, whereupon Decca persuaded his widow to permit release.


about unauthorized recordings, I remembered 2 examples. in this case they have been published posthumously:

- Beethoven: ninth symphony by Furt in Bayreuth (EMI - authorized by his widow after his death, this appears in the booklet of the great recordings of the century edition)

- Bach: violin concertos by Ferras, Schwalbé and Karajan with the Berlin Philharmonic (DGG - recorded in 1966, Karajan canceled the release for unknown reasons. the recording was released for his centenary in 2008)


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Byron said:


> Parsifal for the course on a forum where users love making moral judgements and classifying people they've never even met.


You classify people on their reported behaviour. Certainly if he behaved as reported then I have little time for such behaviour. If an ordinary Joe Bloggs behaved like that (or even a back bench violin) he would be fired. Talent is no excuse for that sort of thing.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

wkasimer said:


> I thought that Rheingold was fine, particularly the orchestral contribution, but Walkure was hampered by some poor casting, particularly among the women. But it's a shame that they pulled the plug - shortly after they did, Dohnanyi and the Clevelanders performed Siegfried in concert with Stig Anderson, Jane Eaglen, Robert Hale et al., which was broadcast. It wasn't perfect, but it certainly was more deserving of commercial posterity than the dreadful Walkure.


Interesting that Solti said in his memoirs that it would today be impossible to record the Ring as he did due to the lack of suitable cast


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## wkasimer (Jun 5, 2017)

DavidA said:


> Certainly if he behaved as reported then I have little time for such behaviour.


The key word in that sentence is "if".


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## wkasimer (Jun 5, 2017)

DavidA said:


> Interesting that Solti said in his memoirs that it would today be impossible to record the Ring as he did due to the lack of suitable cast


It wasn't even possible when he recorded Walkure, since he had to pull a very vocally unsteady Hans Hotter out of semi-retirement to sing Wotan.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

wkasimer said:


> The key word in that sentence is "if".


I think it's pretty well established that he did.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

wkasimer said:


> It wasn't even possible when he recorded Walkure, since he had to pull a very vocally unsteady Hans Hotter out of semi-retirement to sing Wotan.


Yet Karajan produced a better Walkure with lighter voices - apart from Vickers of course.


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## Guest (Jul 12, 2019)

NLAdriaan said:


> To all the 'honourable' members who are swearing on Carlos Kleiber: Has the world missed any accomplishment by you or by the 'professional' musician you quote? Or is it that you just didn't make a notable difference anywhere? Appalling words of nobody's are still nothing, empty shells, not the slightest breeze, gone forever, unnoticed.


I would not question that he was a talented conductor. I have a few of his recordings and they are very fine, but nothing that made me think his talent was somehow on a different level than other talented conductors working at the time. His job was to get the best out of the extraordinary collections of people we was charged with conducting. Even Karajan, with his great ego, understood that. Walking out of an expensive series recording sessions in a fit of temper is a failure. He could have done so much more if his narcissism and other psychological foibles did not interfere. Others who apparently had less natural talent did do much more.

The basic fact, here is a guy who had essentially an open invitation to conduct the Wiener Philharmoniker, and mostly didn't bother.


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## geralmar (Feb 15, 2013)

I read that after the war, EMI recording producer Walter Legge wanted to sign Jascha Horenstein; but Vox wouldn't release the conductor from his contract. So Legge signed Klemperer... .


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## vmartell (Feb 9, 2017)

From my understanding, there was a planned complete Ring with Klemperer - however, he died before the project got started. Thinking I heard that Anja Silja was penciled in as Brunhilde...

v


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## Merl (Jul 28, 2016)

Unfortunately Thomas Fey's projected Beethoven cycle never came to fruition due to ill health but the two discs he did give us are exceptional. That disc of the 4th and 6th remains one of the best ever recorded and i have ridiculous amounts of recordings of both symphonies to compare against. That 4th still sounds incredible.


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

vmartell said:


> From my understanding, there was a planned complete Ring with Klemperer - however, he died before the project got started. Thinking I heard that Anja Silja was penciled in as Brunhilde...
> 
> v


There is the Walkure act 1 along with the entire closing scene of act 3 with Norman Bailey as Wotan. Because of Klemperer's health, it was agreed to have Reginald Goodall do the performance rehearsals.


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## geralmar (Feb 15, 2013)

I recall reading that the recording session was scheduled for a piano concerto; but when the pianist cancelled suddenly this was recorded instead.


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

Igor Markevitch's 1959 recording of Rite of Spring was a last minute substitution for a canceled Klemperer recording however I have yet to find out what had been scheduled.


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## NLAdriaan (Feb 6, 2019)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/pressoffice/bbcworldwide/worldwidestories/pressreleases/2011/03_march/carlos_kleiber.shtml

I guess this says enough. In this thread I notice that for some of us, a supposed lack of self-discipline, character flaw or whatever supposed/alleged psychological issues (are you a therapist who personally treated him? If yes, you should observe professional secrecy and be silent; If no, please remain silent) are the reason for plain hooliganism.

The funniest argumentation is that anyone with a regular job, or any regular professional musician for that matter, would sure be 'fired' if he walked out of a project and even his 'career' would be over:lol:. Yes, there is too much mediocre music and there are too many mediocre recordings. Most of them by conductors who did primarily care about a career or about their bankaccount.

So, are we saying that we want more of the same, if just everyone would be equal and just do his job, we all would be happy?

In art, I guess it doesn't work that way. It would be a much better place if we didn't have all these unnecessary mediocre recordings. I think we can easily do without 80% of all recorded classical music. But within the necessary 20%, I think most of Kleiber, Argerich, Richter & Michelangeli's work would be included. After all, only the audible result counts and it doesn't really matter how it came to be. As to any musician that walked away from a live project, there would always be another more or less gifted replacement available and if it was a recording session, only the record company would be loosing money.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

NLAdriaan said:


> http://www.bbc.co.uk/pressoffice/bbcworldwide/worldwidestories/pressreleases/2011/03_march/carlos_kleiber.shtml
> 
> I guess this says enough. In this thread I notice that for some of us, a supposed lack of self-discipline, character flaw or whatever supposed/alleged psychological issues (are you a therapist who personally treated him? If yes, you should observe professional secrecy and be silent; If no, please remain silent) are the reason for plain hooliganism.
> 
> ...


I thought I had made it clear (as had everyone else) that we were not disputing Kleiber's talent but his character. Frankly as a guy who had to turn up on time and do his job professionally I find it a bit nauseating when a guy who's got more talent in his little finger than me pulls out of a project when someone upsets him. Surely someone who has huge talent should be above that sort of thing - more so than us lesser mortals by what you say? You can spout off all you like about talent but just think if Kleiber had completed some of the projects he walked out on what a better thing it would have been for everyone.


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## Guest (Jul 15, 2019)

NLAdriaan said:


> In art, I guess it doesn't work that way. It would be a much better place if we didn't have all these unnecessary mediocre recordings. I think we can easily do without 80% of all recorded classical music. But within the necessary 20%, I think most of Kleiber, Argerich, Richter & Michelangeli's work would be included. After all, only the audible result counts and it doesn't really matter how it came to be. As to any musician that walked away from a live project, there would always be another more or less gifted replacement available and if it was a recording session, only the record company would be loosing money.


What did he record? Brahms 4, Schubert 3 & 8, Beethoven 5, 7. I like the Brahms 4 a lot, there are half a dozen recordings I like as much. The Schubert was pretty ordinary, the Beethoven, I didn't think was worth keeping. There was a new years concert with Strauss bon-bons and another pair of Beethoven symphonies on Philips that I have not heard.

There were what, 3 or 4 operas, including the Tristan he refused to finish and which had to be patched together from rehearsal.

I guess I just find myself mystified that there is such a cult surrounding Kleiber when his recorded legacy is so inconsequential. To compare him to Argerich and Richter strikes me as bizarre. Those are/were artists of colossal talent who who lived to make music despite their psychological demons and created an ocean of brilliant performances.


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## The Wolf (Apr 28, 2017)

Dinu Lipatti was scheduled to record the Bartok Third with Karajan and the Philharmonia in November 1949, but the session was canceled due to Lipatti’s inability to travel to London.


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## Bigbang (Jun 2, 2019)

Baron Scarpia said:


> What did he record? Brahms 4, Schubert 3 & 8, Beethoven 5, 7. I like the Brahms 4 a lot, there are half a dozen recordings I like as much. The Schubert was pretty ordinary, the Beethoven, I didn't think was worth keeping. There was a new years concert with Strauss bon-bons and another pair of Beethoven symphonies on Philips that I have not heard.
> 
> There were what, 3 or 4 operas, including the Tristan he refused to finish and which had to be patched together from rehearsal.
> 
> I guess I just find myself mystified that there is such a cult surrounding Kleiber when his recorded legacy is so inconsequential. To compare him to Argerich and Richter strikes me as bizarre. Those are/were artists of colossal talent who who lived to make music despite their psychological demons and created an ocean of brilliant performances.


Regardless of the legendary status of Kleiber's B's 5/7 symphony, the reviews on Amazon suggest reviewers are piling it on, suggesting they are motivated by what other reviews are stating on the status of the recording. It is common on Amazon and on this site to be taken in what is circulating on sites. Personally I think a lot of this type of thing goes on in recordings that are passed around as "mystical" and new buyers are duped into the thinking they have to have it and "hear" the recording and pass the same thing on for others.


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## larold (Jul 20, 2017)

_To all the 'honourable' members who are swearing on Carlos Kleiber_

I have never understood the cult status of this conductor. I never heard him in concert or on the radio, only through recordings. Aside from Beethoven 5 I have never found his recordings very satisfying.


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

Bigbang said:


> Regardless of the legendary status of Kleiber's B's 5/7 symphony, the reviews on Amazon suggest reviewers are piling it on, suggesting they are motivated by what other reviews are stating on the status of the recording. It is common on Amazon and on this site to be taken in what is circulating on sites. Personally I think a lot of this type of thing goes on in recordings that are passed around as "mystical" and new buyers are duped into the thinking they have to have it and "hear" the recording and pass the same thing on for others.


Lesson #1 - Ignore Amazon reviews because you know little (or less) about the reviewer, their knowledge, biases etc., etc. Even a reviewer you know and dislike is more useful as at least you have a context into which to place the opinion.


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## Allegro Con Brio (Jan 3, 2020)

Count me as another who's mystified by the Kleiber "cult." The Brahms 2 (on YouTube) and 4 are certainly top-notch, but cannot be counted as the last word - not a fan of his fast tempo in the 4 finale. The first movement of the Beethoven 5 is very thrilling, slashing, and assertive but the rest of the symphony is just ordinary, with the finale even disappointing. The Beethoven 7 is ordinary as well. Schubert 3 and 8 are mainstream. La Traviata with Cotrubas/Domingo is very good, maybe his most successful recording. I've been learning _Tristan_ through his recording, so can't really comment on it against other versions. So what does his elevated status rest upon? I can always hear a sort of "unbroken line" in his phrasing and an intensity of focus that can be quite compelling, but with such a small recorded legacy there's no reason for such adulation IMO - and maybe it's just the gorgeous VPO sound that achieves this. In all honesty I'd trade both his Beethoven and Schubert discs for his father's recording of the Eroica anyday.


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## geralmar (Feb 15, 2013)

larold said:


> _To all the 'honourable' members who are swearing on Carlos Kleiber_
> 
> I have never understood the cult status of this conductor. I never heard him in concert or on the radio, only through recordings. Aside from Beethoven 5 I have never found his recordings very satisfying.


When I was in college I listened with my friend to his new LP of the Furtwangler 1951 Bayreuth Beethoven ninth. Since I knew he was a classical music newbie, I asked him why he chose it over recordings with much better sound and if he had listened to any other recording of the ninth. He said he bought it because everybody insisted it was the "best;" and because of that he had no interest in listening to any other conductor's interpretation.


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## Bigbang (Jun 2, 2019)

Becca said:


> Lesson #1 - Ignore Amazon reviews because you know little (or less) about the reviewer, their knowledge, biases etc., etc. Even a reviewer you know and dislike is more useful as at least you have a context into which to place the opinion.


So true. There is a amazon reviewer who is very knowledgeable about classical music and yet, he cannot seem to avoid attacking conductors one way or another. I have learned not to pay any mind to extreme criticism of recordings but allow some leeway if the praise is done rightly in his estimation. Still, one wonders of his motivations.....only he knows.


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## The Wolf (Apr 28, 2017)

Beethoven - The Five Piano Concertos, with Barenboim, Bernstein & the Wiener Philharmoniker (DGG)

shortly after starting the contacts, both musicians, by mutual agreement, decided that they did not understand each other well and that the best thing was to cancel the project. Later each one recorded them separately (Bernstein only the last 3 with Zimerman).


The following recordings were made by Victoria de los Angeles but have never been released (at least I read that). 

- Complete Chopin songs with Peter Katin - recorded autumn 1976
- Religious Arias with Yehudi Menuhin and his orchestra - recorded June 1977
- Frauenliebe und Leben and other Schumann lieder with Vladimir Ashkenazy - recorded June 1977 

She also performed in Manuel de Falla "Atlántida" 12 times in her career. ¿Is it known if there is a recording and if there were ever plans to commercialize it?


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## Knorf (Jan 16, 2020)

NLAdriaan said:


> And there are many, many missed recording opportunities, because DG embarrassed Carlos Kleiber by issuing Tristan & Isolde... A Heldenleben live recording was already cut by Sony, but Kleiber cancelled the release. And so on.
> 
> Of course Kleiber was extremely problematic and unreasonable in everything. But it remains a shame that he did only record so little. There are some bootleg recordings available, but it can hardly substitute for what could have been.


I've heard that Kleiber _Ein Heldenleben_, and how I wish it were readily available and that I had a copy. It's extraordinary! I keep hoping the estate and label will relent and allow its release. Maybe someday...


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## Animal the Drummer (Nov 14, 2015)

Allegro Con Brio said:


> Count me as another who's mystified by the Kleiber "cult." The Brahms 2 (on YouTube) and 4 are certainly top-notch, but cannot be counted as the last word - not a fan of his fast tempo in the 4 finale. The first movement of the Beethoven 5 is very thrilling, slashing, and assertive but the rest of the symphony is just ordinary, with the finale even disappointing. The Beethoven 7 is ordinary as well. Schubert 3 and 8 are mainstream. La Traviata with Cotrubas/Domingo is very good, maybe his most successful recording. I've been learning _Tristan_ through his recording, so can't really comment on it against other versions. So what does his elevated status rest upon? I can always hear a sort of "unbroken line" in his phrasing and an intensity of focus that can be quite compelling, but with such a small recorded legacy there's no reason for such adulation IMO - and maybe it's just the gorgeous VPO sound that achieves this. In all honesty I'd trade both his Beethoven and Schubert discs for his father's recording of the Eroica anyday.


Well, it's said that beauty lies in the eye of the beholder and that clearly applies to the ear of the listener as well. The key here (no pun intended) (well, maybe a little) is in your well-expressed phrase "intensity of focus". Unlike you, I and many other listeners, not to mention Kleiber's own conductor colleagues, find it a lot more than merely "quite" compelling, so that (to take just one example) his "Unfinished" strikes many of us as waaay more than merely "mainstream" - for me it's totally revitalised a work I had begun to find increasingly pallid. The fact that his recorded legacy is limited, far from diminishing any "reasons for such adulation", frankly adds to it because of the rarity value of the recordings in question. Tastes differ, and a good thing too.


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## Allegro Con Brio (Jan 3, 2020)

Animal the Drummer said:


> Well, it's said that beauty lies in the eye of the beholder and that clearly applies to the ear of the listener as well. The key here (no pun intended) (well, maybe a little) is in your well-expressed phrase "intensity of focus". Unlike you, I and many other listeners, not to mention Kleiber's own conductor colleagues, find it a lot more than merely "quite" compelling, so that (to take just one example) his "Unfinished" strikes many of us as waaay more than merely "mainstream" - for me it's totally revitalised a work I had begun to find increasingly pallid. The fact that his recorded legacy is limited, far from diminishing any "reasons for such adulation", frankly adds to it because of the rarity value of the recordings in question. Tastes differ, and a good thing too.


Yes, differing tastes are most certainly a good thing. To clarify, in retrospect I really shouldn't have used the "c word" in my original post, and for that I apologize. But I adhere to my position and what my ears tell me - Kleiber was a very good conductor who could fall prey to pounding music into the ground by driving it too hard for cheap thrills. I recently gave his live Beethoven 6th a shot. The first movement was the most brazenly unmusical I have heard; almost comically fast and mechanical. The second movement worked a little better with nice phrasing, while the scherzo sounded stiff. Predictably, the storm was the most terrifying and earth-shattering I've ever heard, followed by a finale where I think the fast tempo actually sounded pretty good. It confirmed my impression that he was an extremely dynamic conductor who could drive a band very well but who often leaves me wanting some nuance and tenderness. I don't entirely dislike him, but I'm just extremely confused about why he is frequently cited as one of the greatest conductors of the century and why people consistently rate him so highly. I will say that, though this exquisite Brahms 2 is probably my favorite performance of that symphony, perhaps a valuable souvenir of a former firebrand mellowing as he enters old age:


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