# Should a Composer be judged on their politics or solely on their music?



## RobinG (Aug 25, 2013)

Should we judge a composer on his/her politics and for that private life? Wagner was an anti-semetic which I believe is an historical and Mozart pro-Freemasonary. This is just to name two excellently talented composers of their time. But both, Wagner more-so, are judged on their political stance. I support neither of their views but enjoy their music. 

However, there are times when their politics cloud my enjoyment, should we allow this to happen? After all, if they were just womanisers we would more than likely smile and take little notice or if to discover they were gay, again we would smile and say that was their business and does nothing to how we feel about the excellent works they did in their life times.

Again, I say I only mention Wagner, who is controversial politically and Mozart who much less so as examples but I am sure that there are others.


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

For me, it is all about the music, not about the personality.


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## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

Why do all of these have to be posed as "yes/no" questions? There's no way the real life situation is going to be so simplistic that it has to come down entirely one way or the other.


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## mmsbls (Mar 6, 2011)

I agree with Art Rock. While I care deeply about anti-semitism, I don't care about Wagner's anti-semitism. I loathe murder, but when I listen to Gesualdo, I don't care that he was a murderer. Wagner's music can deeply affect me now, but his anti-semitism is a thing of the past and has no effect on me.


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## realdealblues (Mar 3, 2010)

We've been down this road before, but...

I like music based entirely on how it "sounds" and makes me feel, nothing else.

I could care less what kind of person they were. If Satan or Judas or Hitler or Charles Manson wrote Bruckner's 7th Symphony I would still think it's a beautiful work with beautiful melodies and that's all that matters to me when it comes to the music.


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## Ondine (Aug 24, 2012)

The gossiping around the life of a composer is of little interest for me. What I value is the way he has composed an oeuvre and why it sounds as it sounds.


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## techniquest (Aug 3, 2012)

> I agree with Art Rock. While I care deeply about anti-semitism, I don't care about Wagner's anti-semitism. I loathe murder, but when I listen to Gesualdo, I don't care that he was a murderer. Wagner's music can deeply affect me now, but his anti-semitism is a thing of the past and has no effect on me.


Sums up my own view completely.


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## Blancrocher (Jul 6, 2013)

As a rule, the more I know and understand about a composer or any other historical figure (or think I do!), the less I tend to judge him or her. In any case, only when there are overt political ideas that or integral to a work of art--sexist remarks in an opera libretto, for example--am I likely to be put off it altogether. I attended a performance of Strauss's Intermezzo some time ago and I was far from the only one to be appalled!

On the subject of Gesualdo, I'm intrigued by suggestions that his guilt over his murders actually affects the style of his work:



> The evidence that Gesualdo was tortured by guilt for the remainder of his life is considerable, and he may have given expression to it in his music. One of the most obvious characteristics of his music is the extravagant text setting of words representing extremes of emotion: "love", "pain", "death", "ecstasy", "agony" and other similar words occur frequently in his madrigal texts, most of which he probably wrote himself. While this type of word-painting is common among madrigalists of the late 16th century, it reached an extreme development in Gesualdo's music.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carlo_Gesualdo

I don't doubt that this interpretation is controversial, however.


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## aleazk (Sep 30, 2011)

It's really necessary another thread on this?. The topic has been exhausted to death already in the several Wagner-Nazis threads...


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## EricABQ (Jul 10, 2012)

For me, the answer is always "it depends." 

Let's say composer X has some abhorrent views and was very open about expressing them. But, let's also say that this composer is long since dead. If I listen to his work, is his abhorrent cause being supported by me listening to him? No, not in any meaningful way (so long as his works were not about his objectionable beliefs.) 

But, what if the composer was alive and would benefit financially from me purchasing his music, and my purchases would therefore in some small way support him? In that case, it becomes more difficult to separate the man from his views.


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## Eschbeg (Jul 25, 2012)

My view is that if the politics can plausibly* be argued to be symbolized by the music, then one is justified in judging the politics alongside the music. That Stravinsky was a quasi-fascist has little relevance for me when I listen to the Divertimento, since there is no substantive connection between the two that I can see. However, Stravinsky's politics have quite a lot of relevance for me when I listen to the _Symphony of Psalms_, since I _do_ see connections between the second movement's fugal writing and the ideological symbolism Stravinsky explicitly associated with fugues in his writings and essays of the 1930s.

(*Yes, what counts as plausible is subjective, as is everything else about the interpretation of music.)

In other words, I agree with Mahlerian that it's not a simple black-or-white issue. It's naive to think everything a composer does is a reflection of his or her beliefs, just as it's naive to think nothing a composer does is a reflection of his or her beliefs.


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## starry (Jun 2, 2009)

aleazk said:


> It's really necessary another thread on this?. The topic has been exhausted to death already in the several Wagner-Nazis threads...


It doesn't have to be exactly the same and about Wagner/Hitler. Really _a thread is what you make it_.

And my angle on this thread is that art which is purely guided and structured through outside ideological theories is likely to lack the kind of individual life and energy which I want. It could seem limited and lacking in more universal appeal. Most artists I suspect realise that and so that kind of art isn't seen too often.


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## Aries (Nov 29, 2012)

The music should be judged on the music.


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## aleazk (Sep 30, 2011)

starry said:


> It doesn't have to be exactly the same and about Wagner/Hitler


Of course not. But we have already discussed this topic in an abstract sense in the Wagner/Hitler threads, since it's the obvious abstract discussion behind the Wagner/Hitler issue...


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## Cheyenne (Aug 6, 2012)

realdealblues said:


> I could care less what kind of person they were. If *Satan* or Judas or Hitler or Charles Manson wrote Bruckner's 7th Symphony I would still think it's a beautiful work with beautiful melodies and that's all that matters to me when it comes to the music.


Satan would only write atonal music, of course. :lol:


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## starry (Jun 2, 2009)

aleazk said:


> Of course not. But we have already discussed this topic in an abstract sense in the Wagner/Hitler threads, since it's the obvious abstract discussion behind the Wagner/Hitler issue...


It doesn't have to be about Wagner/Hitler. I didn't read most of that thread anyway as I knew it would get bogged down.


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## mstar (Aug 14, 2013)

In answer to the initial question, well, composers compose. Politicians and businessmen/women have to do with politics. There are certain aspects to each person that we may not necessarily like. For example, take Caravaggio, the famous artist/painter especially noted for his use of contrast. He may not have been the most pleasant person to meet, as I have heard that he attempted to murder a friend who beat him in a tennis match! Still, his paintings are simply amazing, and he is famous.

The same goes for composers. The political views taken by a composer are not what the composer _does_. The composer composes. Therefore, I think that if I like a composer's music, then I will listen to it, whether or not I agree with their political views, on the one exception that the views of the composer are not drastically bad.


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## Ravndal (Jun 8, 2012)

Depends. If kim jong un wrote beautiful music, I would boycott it. Same with Hitler.


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## starry (Jun 2, 2009)

Why would anyone expect most artists to be experts on politics anyway? They probably will come out with some stupid comments.


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## mstar (Aug 14, 2013)

Ravndal: I definitely agree! My post is a little long.... At the end, it says "on the one exception that the views of the composer are not drastically bad," which I think certainly includes Hitler and such....


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

The controversies surrounding Wagner and Mozart have nothing to do with politics but rather their own personal beliefs. I don't think many people know just what Wagner's politics were. But we do know about his racism which many people feel is implied in the operas although there is no expressed statement. Mozarts Freemasonry only tends to get mentioned because he wrote an opera about it. Other composers were Freemasons including Haydn and )I think) Beethoven. But as it doesn't tend to come out in their music it doesn't get mentioned.
As to politics, I do not think that many great composers were huge on politics, as many enjoyed the patronage of the nobility and political meddling was not encouraged. Themes of nationalism and freedom are another matter.


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## starry (Jun 2, 2009)

Composers will just reflect whatever prejudices are around in their society. It's the music that lifts them outside of that limited viewpoint and is more universal and is really the thing that most of us are interested in.


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## appoggiatura (Feb 6, 2012)

Composer B was adulterous, X was a racist, Y killed someone, Z was on drugs and alcohol.

I, from the bottom of my heart, reject all of these things, I think it's everybody's own decision what to do or not to do with their lives. But if an adulterous, racist, alcoholic murderer (exaggerating) gives me a box of chocolates, I'll thank him anyway. A 'bad' person can do good things. No matter what a person does or did, he or she can create wonderful music nonetheless. 
I 'judge' _people_, I don't judge _music_, I listen 

my opinion = listening to Wagner does not equal supporting nazis.


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## Musician (Jul 25, 2013)

For me its all about the personality and the music comes later on. What is music? the music that a composer writes is his spiritual DNA, and if the persona is a terrible guy with bad thoughts and wicked ideas, then his music no matter how nice it would sound to the ear, is nothing more then a wolf in sheep's clothing, I for one am not fooled.


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## Ravndal (Jun 8, 2012)

Musician said:


> For me its all about the personality and the music comes later on. What is music? the music that a composer writes is his spiritual DNA, and if the persona is a terrible guy with bad thoughts and wicked ideas, then his music no matter how nice it would sound to the ear, is nothing more then a wolf in sheep's clothing, I for one am not fooled.


It's a nice thought. But I don't agree.


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## mmsbls (Mar 6, 2011)

Musician said:


> For me its all about the personality and the music comes later on. What is music? the music that a composer writes is his spiritual DNA, and if the persona is a terrible guy with bad thoughts and wicked ideas, then his music no matter how nice it would sound to the ear, is nothing more then a wolf in sheep's clothing, I for one am not fooled.


I'm not sure I follow you. Are you suggesting that you can tell whether a person is terrible, has bad thoughts, or is wicked simply from listening to that composer's music?


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## deggial (Jan 20, 2013)

Ravndal said:


> If kim jong un wrote beautiful music, I would boycott it. Same with Hitler.


why deprive yourself of beauty when you can turn illegal downloading into an act of dissidence


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## Guest (Aug 27, 2013)

RobinG said:


> Should we judge a composer on his/her politics and for that private life?


I think someone already posted this, but I can't find it. So, just to be sure, judge a composer's music by the music. If you want to judge the composer too, don't stop at the politics and the private life, but judge them in the round.

On the other hand, judge not...!


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## Musician (Jul 25, 2013)

No, not really. But if I did have access to his writing and his general world out look and it stands in complete opposition to my world views and morality, then why should I give him the time and day? you say beautiful music? I have that by the tons, as they say _'Next'..._ There are plenty of good composers to listen to , I dont have to be flexible with my beliefs and morality just so I could listen to his music.



mmsbls said:


> I'm not sure I follow you. Are you suggesting that you can tell whether a person is terrible, has bad thoughts, or is wicked simply from listening to that composer's music?


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Musician said:


> But if I did have access to his writing and his general world out look and it stands in complete opposition to my world views and morality, then why should I give him the time and day?


In fact you're giving him nothing, since he's usually long dead. The music now belongs to you, not him. So you might as well enjoy it.


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## drpraetorus (Aug 9, 2012)

The politics and philosophy of an artist are, for the most part, irrelevant. It depends to a great deal on how extreme the politics and how recent the artist. 

That Mozart was a Freemason, is no big deal. A large proportion of the intelligentsia of his time were Freemasons. Washington and Franklin were Freemasons. I know of nothing in Freemasonry that would cause me to question the integrity of it's members. I have known several Freemasons myself. 

Wagner was a racist. Shock of shocks! Racism in the form of anti-Semitism was de rigueur in the Europe of his time. He may have been more vocal and virulent but not out of place. Did it affect his music? I have seen some commentators try to say that Mime and Beckmesser are Jewish stereotypes. Maybe I'm not sufficiently steeped in anti-Semitism to see what to some is obvious, but I don't see it. Wagners socialist ideas are more obvious in his works than his racism. Oddly enough, Wagners favorite Wagner conductor was Jewish, Hermann Levi. 

In The Merchant of Venice, is Shakespeare anti-Semitic?

Wagner was not alone in his thinking. Europe was also rank with anti-white racism. The traitor in The Magic Flute is Monostatos, a black moor who tries to rape Pamina. In Mikado, the Mikado sings in the aria "My object all sublime"

The lady who dyes a chemical yellow
Or stains her grey hair puce,
Or pinches her figure,
Is painted with vigour
And permanent walnut juice.

That is not the original text however. The third line used to be 

"Is blacked like a n****r "

At the time, there would have been no negative reaction. 

These examples are in the long past. If you have the stomach, you can look for more. But it has no real effect on our time. Nor, for the most part, did it effect the quality of the music. We can look back and congratulate ourselves on how far we have come. For most modern composers, we can either agree or disagree with their politics or lifestyle and just chalk it up to that person being a left wing/right wing nutjob and still enjoy the music. 

Some make it more difficult if not impossible. How much did Strauss and Orff support the Nazis? To me, that is more important than Wagners thoughts on race. It would make a difference to me if it were proved that they were ACTIVE party men and agreed with the plans and programs of Hitler et al. From what I know, which is not complete, they were not in that top rank of supporters. They were supporters to some extent and had to go through the de-Nazification process. I think they were trying to survive and had the rather naïve view that being artists put them above the political fray. 

Coming closer to modernity, I do have problems with artists who sucked up to the Communist regimes they lived under. Kabalevsky comes to mind. There is a big difference between producing an artwork under duress or doing it to glorify the murderous government for personal advancement or, far worse, producing works that glorify the regime because the artist believes in the philosophy of men like Lenin, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, etc., etc., ad nauseum. 

We may be running low on Communist dictators but we have no lack of modern tyrants. Political prisons and killings are sadly common. I would have a hard time overlooking artists views who support governments like that.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

I have often thought about this. Ultimately all we as listeners can be aware of what happened in composers lives, aware of the facts (if they are known). Whether or not it means anything to us as individual listeners is a personal thing.

If we look at the lives of many composers, they where far from saints. Wagner was one, but there are many others I can think of who did things that showed that they had their weaknesses and sometimes erred on the wrong side of morality or ethics. Many of them where just wierd, others like totally screwed up indificuals. But hey, we are all human, so we all make mistakes, we all have our foibles and frailties to some degree. Big deal.

Beethoven, Mahler, Boulez can easily be classed as bullies in one way or another.

Scriabin had a totally out of proportion Messianic complex, which rivals even Wagner's megalomania.

Stravinsky and Bartok come across as more like reptiles than humans.

Bruckner had some wierd fetishes, for corpses, teenage girls and counting things over and over.

Sibelius, Mussorgsky had epic battles with the booze (and Modeste unfortunately lost).

Liszt was a serial womanizer.

On the criminal side:

Gesualdo, the infamous and brutal murder of his wife and her lover.

Saint-Saens, most likely a paedophile.

Szymanowski, definitely a paedophile.

I can go on. There are a number of composers I admire for their integrity as human beings. In terms of their activities during WWII, K.A. Hartmann and Kodaly get my vote for coming out pretty clean from that moral and ethical morass that left many people, composers included, rather tainted and with a fair bit of egg on their face, so to speak.

However ultimately a composers job is to compose music, and that is the strongest part of their legacy as far as being a music lover is concerned. I suppose its easier to go elsewhere to get inspiration in terms of ethics and how to carry yourself with some dignity through life. Composers - and creative artists, generally speaking - are not my first port of call in that regard. Nowhere near.

This may all contradict notions of classical music, or any art, lifting the person who receives or consumes it. Or making them better human beings (which I think is rubbish, look at Hitler and Stalin, both fans of classical music). However, again composers and musicians aren't gods, they're only people, like us.


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## ArtMusic (Jan 5, 2013)

.... or even food served in a restaurant. I ordered a steak that was so delicious. The chef in the kitchen might be a manager from hell, which no junior chefs might want to work with. I paid for the steak, I enjoyed it and I really couldn't care anymore than that. This is not just about food or music or the movies - this is all walks of life.


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## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

Sid James said:


> Saint-Saens, most likely a paedophile.
> 
> Szymanowski, definitely a paedophile.


No mention of Britten? His affections sometimes veered near the illegal side, although never so far as actual contact.


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## starry (Jun 2, 2009)

The fact is most just listen to music as music and not as being a representation of the habits or beliefs of a composer, and I don't see that changing except in places that become particularly insecure for some reason and as a result focus politics onto the music. Personal misdemeanors are unlikely to have any long term effect on a composer, though it's conceivable that bad publicity from them could have a negative short term effect during or soon after their lives with some people. But future generations are hardly about to hold personal flaws against the music which will have a life of its own.


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## Musician (Jul 25, 2013)

Well, you took the whole thing literally , of course I'm not giving him anything, I just want to save my time and not listen to his music, it is his music even though he is dead, just like Beethoven's music is his, intellectual property is not bound by time, its not a physical thing, so it can't age.



KenOC said:


> In fact you're giving him nothing, since he's usually long dead. The music now belongs to you, not him. So you might as well enjoy it.


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## Feathers (Feb 18, 2013)

Well, their non-musical views may affect how I see them as _people_, which honestly has no real significance to me besides to fulfill a few occasional bursts of curiosity. I don't know them personally and can't change anything that they've done. Will it affect how I see them as _composers_? No. If we look at it the other way around, I would not judge someone to be a bad person just because they are terrible at writing music. So why should I judge a composer (as a composer and not as a person) by his non-music related views?


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## Musician (Jul 25, 2013)

Imagine Assad, Syria's dictator was a talented composer, would anyone here in his rite mind listen to his music after he gased 1500 innocent men women and children?

Please before you answer, view some photographs of his atrocities before you make a wise judgement...


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

Mahlerian said:


> No mention of Britten? His affections sometimes veered near the illegal side, although never so far as actual contact.


Well I know he is controversial but as far as I known nothing has been proved or substantiated. Of course, since Britten's time the spotlight has been turned stronly on protecting children from harm, not only sexual but also physical and psychological. Some say things have gone too far (eg. parents not being able to smack their kids, even that is called child abuse by some).

But its interesting because there are parallels there with our current debates about Wagner in terms of the values of today's society being much different from his time. Whether issues of "race" or sexuality or for example how we view mental disorders, this all kind of feeds into this topic.

There is also Tchaikovsky who I think was close to his nephew, he fantasised about him in his letters, but I don't think anything has been proven about actual contact?


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## Eschbeg (Jul 25, 2012)

Mahlerian said:


> No mention of Britten? His affections sometimes veered near the illegal side, although never so far as actual contact.


Moreover, Britten is a textbook example of a composer whose eyebrow-raising morals are thematized pretty transparently in some of his works.


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## Blancrocher (Jul 6, 2013)

Eschbeg said:


> Moreover, Britten is a textbook example of a composer whose eyebrow-raising morals are thematized pretty transparently in some of his works.


It's really quite extraordinary that his sexuality wasn't publicized and his career ruined, given all the people who knew about it and--as you say--his transparent dramatization of his psyche for all to see. Given that he's among my favorite modern composers, I must say I'm thankful at how everything worked out!


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

And where do we find examples of Britten's "eyebrow-raising morals"? He certainly had a questionable predilection, but his control over that speaks of high morals, not low.


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## StlukesguildOhio (Dec 25, 2006)

You can judge the artist... the individual who created a given body of art work... based upon anything you like. I have a rather extensive background in art history. I can relate all sorts of juicy tales about Caravaggio, Fra Filippo Lippi, or Francis Bacon... but these have nothing to do with the art. I judge the work of art separate from the artist. The work of art is something more than an autobiography.


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## StlukesguildOhio (Dec 25, 2006)

Imagine Assad, Syria's dictator was a talented composer, would anyone here in his rite mind listen to his music after he gased 1500 innocent men women and children?

If the music was good I would. I quite enjoy the music of Carlo Gesualdo and the paintings of Caravaggio... both of whom had blood on their hands.

Please before you answer, view some photographs of his atrocities before you make a wise judgement...

I listen to music, read, and look at paintings for the pleasure they bring. I don't look to them as a form of autobiography. I certainly don't make my artistic choices based upon the morality of the artists.


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## Eschbeg (Jul 25, 2012)

KenOC said:


> And where do we find examples of Britten's "eyebrow-raising morals"?


To take only the two most well-known examples: In _Turn of the Screw_, Britten and Piper give voice to Peter Quint, a character who did not have any lines of dialogue at all in James's novel. The Quint of the opera mostly uses this newfound voice to beckon to Miles, the boy. There's the very curious night scene where Miles, wandering around in his pajamas, hears Quint calling to him and responds in ecstasy, "I'm here! Oh, I'm here!"

In _Peter Grimes_, the title character employs boys as his assistants, and the boys routinely appear to suffer abuse at his hands, though nothing can be proven. The town grows increasingly angry Grimes, to the point where Grimes's only friend Ellen also begins to suspect, and though Grimes insists on his innocence he nonetheless accepts their punishment by drowning himself at sea.



KenOC said:


> He certainly had a questionable predilection, but his control over that speaks of high morals, not low.


Refraining from pedophilia speaks of high morals? That's setting the bar rather low.


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## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

KenOC said:


> And where do we find examples of Britten's "eyebrow-raising morals"? He certainly had a questionable predilection, but his control over that speaks of high morals, not low.


I'll agree with that as far as being far better than the alternative. He did have some definite personality flaws, though. He could be petulant towards those who got on his bad side, and once there, people tended to stay there.


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## Kommand (Aug 28, 2013)

When one listens to music, one should focus on the music and not the composer's political views or religious views, etc. After all, when listening to something, for the time being we are appreciators of the work of art, not criticizers of the character.


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## StlukesguildOhio (Dec 25, 2006)

Musician- For me its all about the personality and the music comes later on. What is music? the music that a composer writes is his spiritual DNA, and if the persona is a terrible guy with bad thoughts and wicked ideas, then his music no matter how nice it would sound to the ear, is nothing more then a wolf in sheep's clothing, I for one am not fooled.

How old are you? I ask because such a statement strikes me as incredibly naive and rather akin to the sort of youthful Romanticism one eventually outgrows as a result of experience. It also strikes me as making a rather simplistic assumption about the complexity that is the human being.










The above painting is one of the most masterful creations of the Baroque. It is also a heartfelt expression of loss, suffering, and mortality. It was painted by an artist who was a notorious jerk. He pandered images of under-aged "pretty boys" to high-ranking clergy members with similar tastes. He had a police record a mile long involving multiple violent, drunken disputes. He eventually killed a man in a gambling dispute over a tennis match. None of this is the least bit relevant to the above painting... outside of illustrating just how complex humanity and artistic creation can be.






Nothing in the above work of music fools anybody. There is no wolf in sheep's clothing. Just the honest expression of an artist who was a complex individual with a rather dark and bloody history:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carlo_Gesualdo


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## Musician (Jul 25, 2013)

So ask yourself this question, can you concentrate on the music of a composer that may have been responsible for the murder of your loved ones? Don't you have anything to do in life besides that?

I for one, will never listen to any composer that has inspired mass murderers, and his music was played while these murders were taking place. Wagner's music undeniably has boosted the national aspiration of the murderers of germany, and his music was also played as a 'background' to Jewish mass murder.

If these facts mean nothing to you, then again, please do some soul searching and ask yourself why it doesnt bother you...



Kommand said:


> When one listens to music, one should focus on the music and not the composer's political views or religious views, etc. After all, when listening to something, for the time being we are appreciators of the work of art, not criticizers of the character.


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## arpeggio (Oct 4, 2012)

*Alfredo Casella*

Like most of contributors here it appears to me that this subject is bogus.

There is one composer who has not been mentioned that had a questionable background, Alfredo Casella. He was a Fascist that had close ties to Mussolini. As a result his music fell out of favor for many years. He is an ourstanding composer. I remember reading one article that referred to him as an Italian Hindemith.

It appears that over the past twenty years his music has been rediscovered. Naxos has issued some recordings devoted to his orchestral music. I recently purchased them and submitted a post about them in the "Latest Pruchases" Thread.


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## Musician (Jul 25, 2013)

I knew it was only a matter of time where the discussion would shift from the subject to the personal. Can you please argue with the points and leave my age and other details away from the discussion? you have a rite to your opinion, and I have the rite to mine, its no secret we don't agree, in fact we wont agree on many issues not only that, so you're gonna ask me my age on those topics as well?

Please stick to the issues.



StlukesguildOhio said:


> Musician- For me its all about the personality and the music comes later on. What is music? the music that a composer writes is his spiritual DNA, and if the persona is a terrible guy with bad thoughts and wicked ideas, then his music no matter how nice it would sound to the ear, is nothing more then a wolf in sheep's clothing, I for one am not fooled.
> 
> How old are you? I ask because such a statement strikes me as incredibly naive and rather akin to the sort of youthful Romanticism one eventually outgrows as a result of experience. It also strikes me as making a rather simplistic assumption about the complexity that is the human being.
> 
> ...


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## StlukesguildOhio (Dec 25, 2006)

Can you please argue with the points and leave my age and other details away from the discussion? 

It seems to me that only the first and possibly the second sentence of my post raised the question of your age... in response to comments such as:

_a composer writes is his spiritual DNA, and if the persona is a terrible guy with bad thoughts and wicked ideas, then his music no matter how nice it would sound to the ear, is nothing more then a wolf in sheep's clothing_

which seriously strike me... and I suspect a great many others as well... as quite naive. Human beings... and artists (who generally fall among the ranks of human beings)... have always struck me as being far more complex... far less one-sided than you portray them.

Please stick to the issues.

It would seem you have taken just as simplistic a view of my posts. I offered any number of comments dealing directly with the issues at hand... which you have repeatedly avoided simply by a wave of the hand.


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## Musician (Jul 25, 2013)

So you think that this is naive, ok, that's your choice. My opinion on the other hand that anyone who gives Wagner a free pass as an artist because he wrote some 'nice' music, while ignoring the horrific pain and suffering he directly or indirectly has caused to so many people, is naive.



StlukesguildOhio said:


> Can you please argue with the points and leave my age and other details away from the discussion?
> 
> It seems to me that only the first and possibly the second sentence of my post raised the question of your age... in response to comments such as:
> 
> ...


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## realdealblues (Mar 3, 2010)

Musician said:


> So ask yourself this question, can you concentrate on the music of a composer that may have been responsible for the murder of your loved ones? Don't you have anything to do in life besides that?
> 
> I for one, will never listen to any composer that has inspired mass murderers, and his music was played while these murders were taking place. Wagner's music undeniably has boosted the national aspiration of the murderers of germany, and his music was also played as a 'background' to Jewish mass murder.
> 
> If these facts mean nothing to you, then again, please do some soul searching and ask yourself why it doesnt bother you...


I see no need of soul searching as it's all a matter of perception. You choose to look at the Jewish mass murder as evil, but I instead choose to see the positive change it brought about by awakening over a Billion people who decided they did not want to live in a world like that. Those people who decided for themselves that this was wrong and would do their best to see that it would not happen that way again.

Since you brought up soul searching, then I assume you believe in God and maybe you should let God sort it all out and believe that he knows what he's doing and that whatever he does, he does for a reason. And maybe, just maybe, he honestly doesn't care if you listen to Wagner because he's looking at the bigger picture.


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## StlukesguildOhio (Dec 25, 2006)

So ask yourself this question, can you concentrate on the music of a composer that may have been responsible for the murder of your loved ones? Don't you have anything to do in life besides that?

You ask me not to personalize my comments... but all you repeatedly offer are personal "what ifs". What if Hitler were a composer? What if a composer had murdered your family?

I for one, will never listen to any composer that has inspired mass murderers...

How do you know which composers have inspired who? Stalin loved The Three Stooges and John Wayne movies. Leoncavallo's _Pagliacci_ was performed more than any opera by Wagner during the reign of the Third Reich. Hitler also loved Mozart and Beethoven. How is a work of music to be held responsible for the manner in which it is employed/abused by later political figures?

...and his music was played while these murders were taking place... his music was also played as a 'background' to Jewish mass murder.

Please offer some documentation for such assertions. There is no record of Wagner's music being played in the death camps. Verdi's _Requiem_, however, was repeatedly performed.

Wagner's music undeniably has boosted the national aspiration of the murderers of germany...

Wagner's music... along with that of Mozart, Beethoven, Bach, Haydn, Richard and Johann Strauss were all employed in an attempt to promote German culture and German nationalism. A good deal of the music of the 19th century had Nationalistic overtones... or was employed in support of the Nationalistic aspirations of the era. German Nationalism was/is no less or more good or bad than any other Nationalism (including Israeli Nationalism). Where it becomes problematic is when Nationalism is used as a means of justifying the vilification... abuse... and even slaughter of others.

If these facts mean nothing to you, then again, please do some soul searching and ask yourself why it doesnt bother you...


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## Musician (Jul 25, 2013)

Your comparisons are weak and asymmetrical.



StlukesguildOhio said:


> So ask yourself this question, can you concentrate on the music of a composer that may have been responsible for the murder of your loved ones? Don't you have anything to do in life besides that?
> 
> You ask me not to personalize my comments... but all you repeatedly offer are personal "what ifs". What if Hitler were a composer? What if a composer had murdered your family?
> 
> ...


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## Celloman (Sep 30, 2006)

Politicians should be judged on their politics. Composers should be judged on their compositions.


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## Kommand (Aug 28, 2013)

Musician said:


> So ask yourself this question, can you concentrate on the music of a composer that may have been responsible for the murder of your loved ones? Don't you have anything to do in life besides that?
> 
> I for one, will never listen to any composer that has inspired mass murderers, and his music was played while these murders were taking place. Wagner's music undeniably has boosted the national aspiration of the murderers of germany, and his music was also played as a 'background' to Jewish mass murder.
> 
> If these facts mean nothing to you, then again, please do some soul searching and ask yourself why it doesnt bother you...


It is great music nonetheless. It was not Wagner's fault his music was used excessively by a tyrannical genocidal regime. Honestly, Wagner is just a big over-exaggerated hype that serves no purpose. If the Nazis hadn't played him so much, we'd hear 50% less about him.


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## Rapide (Oct 11, 2011)

*To folks who cannot separate the politics and the music :*


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## SiegendesLicht (Mar 4, 2012)

RobinG said:


> Should we judge a composer on his/her politics and for that private life?


Music comes first, and if you like the music well enough to become interested in the man himself, the kind of life he lived and the kind of political views he had, then it is up to you whether to judge him or not. But somehow I don't think that any of us who love the music of a particular composer, have ever been put off by the political views of the said composer. Or have they?

As concerns Wagner, I do not believe he was the kind of absolute moral disaster that some people here make him out to be (I've known some wonderful people in my life who allowed themselves negative comments on particular groups of people, and I do not respect them any less after that). But even if he was, I would still love the music.


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## starry (Jun 2, 2009)

Saul (Musician) has been around on classical forums for a while under different names, he won't change his opinion on nationalism/ethnicity which is his particular interest so there's little point discussing it with him in my opinion.


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## Nereffid (Feb 6, 2013)

realdealblues said:


> I see no need of soul searching as it's all a matter of perception. You choose to look at the Jewish mass murder as evil, but I instead choose to see the positive change it brought about by awakening over a Billion people who decided they did not want to live in a world like that. Those people who decided for themselves that this was wrong and would do their best to see that it would not happen that way again.


Every genocide has a silver lining!


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## EricABQ (Jul 10, 2012)

Nereffid said:


> Every genocide has a silver lining!


I guess we should all thank the Jews for taking one for the team.


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## realdealblues (Mar 3, 2010)

Nereffid said:


> Every genocide has a silver lining!


Maybe you should read it correctly and see that I just choose not to "fixate" on the genocide like some people, but rather what came out of it.

Jesus gets crucified and I choose not to "fixate" on the crucifixion and what he went through in his final days but rather what he did when and said while he was alive and how the world change because of it.


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## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

Kommand said:


> It is great music nonetheless. It was not Wagner's fault his music was used excessively by a tyrannical genocidal regime. Honestly, Wagner is just a big over-exaggerated hype that serves no purpose. If the Nazis hadn't played him so much, we'd hear 50% less about him.


...on second thought, I don't even know what this is trying to say.


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## Nereffid (Feb 6, 2013)

realdealblues said:


> Maybe you should read it correctly


Maybe you shoulda written it correctly.


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## realdealblues (Mar 3, 2010)

Nereffid said:


> Maybe you shoulda written it correctly.


I knew that was coming...lol. I meant to re-word it but had to go on the road and was in a hurry. I always assume people will read things the way I intend them. I just need to stay out of these discussions because they are far too frustrating for myself. I'm now vowing not to take part in these kinds of discussions anymore. I don't care about all the politics and other crap. I only care about the music.


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## Jord (Aug 13, 2012)

Would you judge a baker on how well he can ride a bike to determine whether he can bake?


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## deggial (Jan 20, 2013)

Jord said:


> Would you judge a baker on how well he can ride a bike to determine whether he can bake?


depends - are we talking pushbike or motorbike?


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## Nereffid (Feb 6, 2013)

Jord said:


> Would you judge a baker on how well he can ride a bike to determine whether he can bake?


Well, Ernest Chausson's output was certainly affected by his bike-riding ability.


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## ArtMusic (Jan 5, 2013)

Rapide said:


> *To folks who cannot separate the politics and the music :*


Which movie is that from?


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

Nereffid said:


> Well, Ernest Chausson's output was certainly affected by his bike-riding ability.


Yeah, and the lesson there is wear a helmet if you get on a bike (I constantly see people who don't - even though the law says they have to!). Anyway, this is a digression among many digressions that this thread is rapidly descending towards. I do take this issue seriously but threads of this sort tend to descend into a kind of farcical level.

All I can add is if people don't want to know about how a good number of composers weren't nice people, not role models for some sort of decent life by any means (not to speak of many of the people who commissioned their music - whether tyrants of centuries past or those closer to our own time), well just ignore it. Don't read about it. In many ways, focussing on the music only protects you from some of the harsh realities that created much of the music we love and cherish. But that's history, there are good bits and bad bits. For me, the whitewash or ostrich with his head in the sand attitude doesn't work, it masks the reality of that history, but if some listeners want to downplay or ignore it, or just have music like a museum piece in a protected glass case, well so be it. Who am I to judge. I got "issues" with certain composers myself. So I understand to a certain point, definitely.


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## Rapide (Oct 11, 2011)

ArtMusic said:


> Which movie is that from?


_A Few Good Men_ (1992). So applicable to this thread ...


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## Rapide (Oct 11, 2011)

Sid James said:


> Yeah, and the lesson there is wear a helmet if you get on a bike (I constantly see people who don't - even though the law says they have to!). Anyway, this is a digression among many digressions that this thread is rapidly descending towards. I do take this issue seriously but threads of this sort tend to descend into a kind of farcical level.
> 
> All I can add is if people don't want to know about how a good number of composers weren't nice people, not role models for some sort of decent life by any means (not to speak of many of the people who commissioned their music - whether tyrants of centuries past or those closer to our own time), well just ignore it. Don't read about it. In many ways, focussing on the music only protects you from some of the harsh realities that created much of the music we love and cherish. But that's history, there are good bits and bad bits. For me, the whitewash or ostrich with his head in the sand attitude doesn't work, it masks the reality of that history, but if some listeners want to downplay or ignore it, or just have music like a museum piece in a protected glass case, well so be it. Who am I to judge. I got "issues" with certain composers myself. So I understand to a certain point, definitely.


Sid, that is just ridiculous. *Nobody* is whitewashing the horrors of WWII. Nobody is not reading about the history of it all. Nobody is downplaying it. If you think listening to Wagner's music is all of that, then that is most perculiar indeed.


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## arpeggio (Oct 4, 2012)

*Wagner*

I had a Jewish co-worker who was an older gentleman. He passed away a few years ago. He was a German Jew who escaped Germany in the late thirties. He tried and failed to get his parents and brothers and sisters out and lost all of them in the holocaust. His disappointment plagued him for the rest of his life.

I had another co-worker whose parents were German Jews who escaped Germany in the thirties. He lost all of his aunts and uncles and cousins.

I personally enjoy listening to some of the music of Wagner. By the same token I can not be critical of the Jewish animus toward Wagner.

Wagner was an anti-semitic jerk and no amount of rhetoric is going to change that. I have seen nothing new concerning this issue in the above entries.

The moderators do not need to shut down this thread. We should just stop talking about it and walk away.


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## SiegendesLicht (Mar 4, 2012)

Arpeggio, I do have a question for you though. What does the fact that your co-workers lost their relatives in the Holocaust have to do with Wagner? He is not responsible for any of it.


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## arpeggio (Oct 4, 2012)

*Sorry*



SiegendesLicht said:


> Arpeggio, I do have a question for you though. What does the fact that your co-workers lost their relatives in the Holocaust have to do with Wagner? He is not responsible for any of it.


I thought I addressed that issue in my post. I am not a very good writer and in you case I failed. Sorry.


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## Guest (Aug 29, 2013)

arpeggio said:


> I thought I addressed that issue in my post. I am not a very good writer and in you case I failed. Sorry.


You did. It seemed to me you were clear.


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## IBMchicago (May 16, 2012)

Ultimately, a listener's music preference and/or opinion of any particular composer probably says far less about the composer and much more about the listener. That some Jewish people can be deeply offended by the music of Wagner (and, perhaps, for good reason....I won't judge this sentiment) and that other Jewish people like Daniel Barenboim and others can show great enthusiasm for Wagner's music (and likely for good reason just as well) says a great deal about the listeners and very little about Wagner, other than that his music is brilliant and his personal views are detestable, though probably not uncommon for his time (something we all knew anyway).

As an aside, I detest that Thomas Jefferson owned slaves, but I still think that the Declaration of Independence is a beautiful work of philosophical writing.


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## Eschbeg (Jul 25, 2012)

SiegendesLicht said:


> What does the fact that your co-workers lost their relatives in the Holocaust have to do with Wagner? He is not responsible for any of it.


Of course not, just as Christopher Nolan was not responsible for James Holmes' actions. Nonetheless, a survivor of Aurora CO has pretty good reason for not wanting to see "The Dark Knight Rises" if so inclined, and a Holocaust survivor has infinitely more reason for not wanting to hear Wagner overtures if so inclined. In these scenarios, the culpability of the director/composer is utterly beside the point.


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

Cheyenne said:


> Satan would only write atonal music, of course. :lol:


Thomas Mann, as advised by the cheery retro-reactionary Theodor Adorno, beat you to that one in his novel _Doctor Faustus_.

Though I'm certain both Mann and Adorno were sincere, it does make for an even bigger LOL than your quip


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

drpraetorus said:


> ....
> Coming closer to modernity, I do have problems with artists who sucked up to the Communist regimes they lived under. Kabalevsky comes to mind. There is a big difference between producing an artwork under duress or doing it to glorify the murderous government for personal advancement or, far worse, producing works that glorify the regime because the artist believes in the philosophy of men like Lenin, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, etc., etc., ad nauseum.


You have cited to me the only possible instance where an artist's politics may color why I will or will not listen to or consume otherwise good artwork: IF the composer's political activity has any real sphere of influence, and I disagree with the politics. [[ADD: and most importantly, if in consuming their music I know any money is going back to that source.]

Fortunately, most of those great composers with less than currently likeable politics had less political influence than the distance they could spit -- no worse than the disagreed with rantings of one of your otherwise likeable or lovable relatives, and no more effective, either.

For the rest, most composers' music does have _part_ of their personality present, at least the musical part  Even that though, is an intangible and somewhat hard to concretely point our or define, and subject to question.

We are left with the music.


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

Eschbeg said:


> Refraining from pedophilia speaks of high morals? That's setting the bar rather low.


Refraining from anything which could be harmful to yourself or others is probably a matter of a bit of luck that you have the power to do so. Given that matter of sheer luck, it must still also then be a conscious decision not to act while the urge is strong and, it seems by report, constantly present.

For me, and I imagine most anyone else, that particular sexual proclivity on the part of an adult for underage youth is not only repellent to think about, but impossible to imagine or understand: give the man a little bit of credit for his restraint.

As to his not being exposed to the public in a time where it would have shut down his career (or I believe could have even put him in prison), he did not act on those desires, was everywhere else a man of integrity, generous with his gifts to other professionals, and he founded the Maltings as a venue to train young musicians.

There is another thing about the high-profile homosexual which a gay friend pointed out to me. (Keep in mind that Britten was so good he was -- perhaps still is -- THE big boy of 20th century British classical music.) This friend said, after having watched a documentary on the stage & opera & film director Luchino Visconti, "I realized it is acceptable to be homosexual if you are highly successful."


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## Eschbeg (Jul 25, 2012)

PetrB said:


> give the man a little bit of credit for his restraint.


I'll happily give the man a little credit. More than a little. With the exception of one documented incident (discussed in John Bridcut's _Britten's Children_), it seems he did manage to exercise restraint. But it takes a little more than "refraining from the sexual abuse of children in all but one case" to earn "high moral" status. We don't have to pretend Britten was a saint in order to grant him a little credit. There is a perfectly fine middle ground.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

I wonder why we are so concerned with Britten when a composer like Saint-Saens, who appears to have been far more active in pursuing his pleasures, is rarely mentioned.


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## ArtMusic (Jan 5, 2013)

Rolf Harris sex charges! What an old pervert!


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## Guest (Aug 31, 2013)

ArtMusic said:


> Rolf Harris sex charges! What an old pervert!


Charges, not convictions.


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## Jord (Aug 13, 2012)

deggial said:


> depends - are we talking pushbike or motorbike?


What i was trying to say was we're judging the composers music, and why should we be prejudiced against them or their music because we don't agree with them


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## MJongo (Aug 6, 2011)

The whole concept of judging music based on, well, anything other than the music is frankly ridiculous. Suppose a new document is unearthed that shows Bach started a genocide. What has changed within the scores after learning this new information? Nothing! If you judge a work differently after that, then I'm afraid that it isn't music you are judging.

Which isn't to say it is wrong to let that information affect your listening; it is very hard not to. Nor am I saying that one shouldn't judge a composer's character when critiquing the person themselves. However, claiming that _music_ critiques should account for the composer's actions or ideology is, like I say, ridiculous.


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## science (Oct 14, 2010)

Celloman said:


> Politicians should be judged on their politics. Composers should be judged on their compositions.


We probably shouldn't reduce people to a single dimension. A person's compositions should be judged on the music and a person's politics should be judged on their politics and so on. If I'm a horrible teacher there's no point in protesting that I'm a good husband, and vice-versa.


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## EricABQ (Jul 10, 2012)

When judging the music there is no reason to take into account the composer's politics. 

When judging the composer as a person, you would take into account the sum total of their actions and omissions.

If you feel the need to judge them, that is.


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