# Beethoven's Symphonies



## DrMuller (May 26, 2014)

Is it just be or does it bother anyone else when these symphonies are played by these enormously big orchestras; I am talking Romantic Ere-size. I know Beethoven expanded the size of the orchestra but I want to hear the symphonies like they sounded when they were originally played. I hate when they use huge orchestras to make them sound like they are from another era. I read a thread here where people were arguing if Beethoven was a classical or romantic composer. Well, of course he's going to sound like a Romantic composer when his work is portrayed in such a manner, with a huge orchestra and a conductor that exaggerates all the emotions. Don't get me wrong, I like music from the romantic era as much as the next guy but I like Beethoven's symphonies more when they are not presented in such a manner. In fact I am in love with his symphonies played by Nicolaus Esterházy Sinfonia, conducted by Béla Drahos; I know it's Naxos and it's a low budget label but i don't care, they sound more authentic this way and i am not ashamed to admit it. Any one feel the same way?


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## merlinus (Apr 12, 2014)

No way!!! I like my Beethoven to be fiery, thunderous, intense, and passionate.


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## dgee (Sep 26, 2013)

It doesn't really work for me either. A local orchestra here recently performed them with big strings - I only heard them in recording but I wasn't overly satisfied. The orchestra had to work against the string volume to achieve the sound they wanted. I prefer these symphonies in more historically aware versions 

Reminds me of an older American conductor I had once doing Mozart with all the strings - "It's Mozart goes to Hollywood! But I grew up with it and I still like it!"


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## dgee (Sep 26, 2013)

merlinus said:


> No way!!! I like my Beethoven to be fiery, thunderous, intense, and passionate.


I don't know how that's relevant to orchestra size!


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

DrMuller said:


> Is it just be or does it bother anyone else when these symphonies are played by these enormously big orchestras; I am talking Romantic Ere-size. I know Beethoven expanded the size of the orchestra?...


Beethoven said (in mid-life) that an orchestra of about 60 was right for his symphonies.


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## DrMuller (May 26, 2014)

merlinus said:


> No way!!! I like my Beethoven to be fiery, thunderous, intense, and passionate.


They can be passionate and intense with a smaller orchestra too. Don't get me wrong, I don't want flat, easy-listening Beethoven, that was not my point. I just don't think they sound better with a huge orchestra. That was not how they were written. But I might be in minority here.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

DrMuller said:


> They can be passionate and intense with a smaller orchestra too. Don't get me wrong, I don't want flat, easy-listening Beethoven, that was not my point. I just don't think they sound better with a huge orchestra. That was not how they were written. But I might be in minority here.


You may be in the minority, but I will surely stand with you on this point. I have all the Mozart keyboard concertos with period instruments and fortepiano, as well as his solo keyboard sonatas played on Walter fortepiano replicas, and I have all the Beethoven keyboard sonatas performed on Broadwood replicas of fortepianos Beethoven was familiar with. Haydn Symphonies same thing. I prefer period instrument performances.

I too want to hear works performed on instruments these composers originally conceived their works for, not big bloated Steinways and romantic orchestras.


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## DrMuller (May 26, 2014)

hpowders said:


> You may be in the minority, but I will surely stand with you on this point. I listen to Mozart keyboard concertos with period instruments and fortepiano and I have all the Beethoven keyboard sonatas performed on Broadwood replicas of fortepianos Beethoven was familiar with. Haydn Symphonies same thing. I prefer period performances.
> 
> I too want to hear works performed on instruments these composers originally conceived their works for, not big bloated Steinways and romantic orchestras.


Thanks you! I am glad I am not alone here. I do prefer period instruments as well, that also goes for Baroque music.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Try giving Beethoven one of those "big bloated Steinways" and see if he turns you down!


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

I am quite happy with Gunter Wand's cycle (except I substitute Fricsay for the Ninth). I have no idea what size orchestra Wand used.


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## merlinus (Apr 12, 2014)

KenOC said:


> Try giving Beethoven one of those "big bloated Steinways" and see if he turns you down!


I LOVE playing through the LvB sonatas and other piano music on my big bloated Steinway!


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## Bored (Sep 6, 2012)

Nah orchestra size doesn't matter its about heart


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## GraemeG (Jun 30, 2009)

It's about perspective.
A small band works well if the hall was 1815-sized.
In a 2000+ seat concert hall, it's easy to understand why a conductor might want 60 strings and to double the wind parts.
An orchestra of 60 makes a great sound in a hall that holds 1200 people...

Doing some research, I see that the Theater an der Wien, where much of Beethoven's middle period repertoire was premiered, held 2000. But being a theatre, rather than a modern concert hall, I expect its volume would have been far smaller than Carnegie Hall, say, the Philharmonie, the RFH, or Sydney's Opera House.
cheers,
GG


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

DrMuller said:


> Thanks you! I am glad I am not alone here. I do prefer period instruments as well, that also goes for Baroque music.


I'm with you there too! Handel and Bach with period instruments, whether harpsichord, violin or orchestra.


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## dgee (Sep 26, 2013)

GraemeG said:


> It's about perspective.
> A small band works well if the hall was 1815-sized.
> In a 2000+ seat concert hall, it's easy to understand why a conductor might want 60 strings and to double the wind parts.
> An orchestra of 60 makes a great sound in a hall that holds 1200 people...


That's not relevant either. The decision is made in regard to the music, not the venue. More players (after a certain point) also does not necessary equal more volume, although it definitely changes the sound. Big orchestras for Beethoven and before has become a thing of the past in all venues - it makes it too difficult to get a desirable sound. Some sweetness is fine, but articulation and flexibility is non-negotiable. Competent professional orchestra musicians shouldn't have trouble filling the hall


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## violadude (May 2, 2011)

I agree with you Dr. Muller. But what bugs me more than orchestra size is an overly Romantic interpretation from the conductor. Like when the first movement of Eroica is slowed down to half its speed to make it sound "grander". Beethoven was a Classical composer, I think he should be played like one. 

I can't get behind the thing about HIP keyboards though, sorry. I just like the sound of the piano.


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## tempo (Nov 8, 2012)

It doesn't bother me to hear Beethoven's symphonies played with a full symphony orchestra. The only thing that bothers me is when they are played with ridiculously slow tempos.

I think his music should have a degree of fire and attack, so when the first movement of the 5th comes in at close to 8 minutes or the first movement of the 9th comes in at close to 16 minutes, I think that they lose an important element of anger and aggression. They should sound tempestuous, in my opinion.

In fact, I think that the 9th is best with a full symphony orchestra, as I find it can sound a little 'thin' (particularly the third movement) when a chamber orchestra is employed. Symphonies 1-8 work pretty fine, for me, with a chamber ensemble.


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

merlinus said:


> No way!!! I like my Beethoven to be fiery, thunderous, intense, and passionate.


Then you will absolutely LOVE Jos van Immerseel's recordings: huge fiery brassy sounds, orchestral fortes with the force of a Bruckner tutti fortissimo and the emotional intensity of a Wagner music drama. Absolutely wonderful and authentic Germanic sound which is most certainly a factual statement because the instruments they are played on are periodically AND geographically appropriate. Some might say playing this music specifically on instruments from these extremely specific parameters is being pedantic, but really, the interpretation and musicality will crush any opinion of this cycle being only novelty for the HIP connoisseurs.


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

violadude said:


> I agree with you Dr. Muller. But what bugs me more than orchestra size is an overly Romantic interpretation from the conductor. Like when the first movement of Eroica is slowed down to half its speed to make it sound "grander". Beethoven was a Classical composer, I think he should be played like one.
> 
> I can't get behind the thing about HIP keyboards though, sorry. I just like the sound of the piano.


I particularly love the YouTube video of Paavo Järvi conducting it, that's the slowly tempo I'm happy with.


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## GGluek (Dec 11, 2011)

It's not the forces. It's what is done with them. A performance either works or it doesn't.


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

tempo said:


> It doesn't bother me to hear Beethoven's symphonies played with a full symphony orchestra. The only thing that bothers me is when they are played with ridiculously slow tempos.
> 
> I think his music should have a degree of fire and attack, so when the first movement of the 5th comes in at close to 8 minutes or the first movement of the 9th comes in at close to 16 minutes, I think that they lose an important element of anger and aggression. They should sound tempestuous, in my opinion.
> 
> In fact, I think that the 9th is best with a full symphony orchestra, as I find it can sound a little 'thin' (particularly the third movement) when a chamber orchestra is employed. Symphonies 1-8 work pretty fine, for me, with a chamber ensemble.


What would you say to these timings...

Beethoven 5
6'30"
8'00"
4'30"
11'00"

Beethoven 9
14'30"
11'00"
13'00"
22'00"


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## DrMuller (May 26, 2014)

violadude said:


> I agree with you Dr. Muller. But what bugs me more than orchestra size is an overly Romantic interpretation from the conductor. Like when the first movement of Eroica is slowed down to half its speed to make it sound "grander". Beethoven was a Classical composer, I think he should be played like one.


I couln't agree more.


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## tempo (Nov 8, 2012)

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> What would you say to these timings...
> 
> Beethoven 5
> 6'30"
> ...


All looks great on the 5th, but 11 minutes on the second movement of the 9th makes it clear that repeats have been skipped, which is no good for me.


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## Guest (Jun 30, 2014)

I have been able to enjoy Beethoven's symphonies in just about every configuration - Gardiner's, Hogwood's, and Immerseel's HIP, Paavo Jarvi's HIP size but modern instruments, Vanska's HIP-inspired modern recordings, Karajan's beautiful full orchestra, as well as Fricsay, Szell with Cleveland, Furtwangler, and even large, ponderous Klemperer. I get something different from them all, and wouldn't throw any out. 

For HIP, Immerseel is incredibly exciting with the breakneck speed at which he gallops along, but seems to sacrifice some of the soul for the speed. I much prefer Gardiner for HIP recordings.

Overall, though, my favorite is Vanska on BIS.


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## DrMuller (May 26, 2014)

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> What would you say to these timings...
> 
> Beethoven 5
> 6'30"
> ...


The third movement in his fifth symphony is way to short...


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## senza sordino (Oct 20, 2013)

As a string player this might sound odd, but some of the big orchestras use too many strings. So listening to John Eliot Gardiner's interpretation of LvB's sixth was a revelation. More French horns, oboes and flutes please. HvK created a gorgeous string sound with Berlin, but sometimes the music doesn't call for that. "Back off strings, get your own tune" say the wind players!


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

DrMuller said:


> The third movement in his fifth symphony is way to short...


I believe there's a repeat in the scherzo of the 5th that hardly anybody takes. That makes it a bit longer. Can somebody affirm or deny this?


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## tempo (Nov 8, 2012)

KenOC said:


> I believe there's a repeat in the scherzo of the 5th that hardly anybody takes. That makes it a bit longer. Can somebody affirm or deny this?


Completely correct.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Abbado/BPO takes it. Makes it a bit too much of a good thing, in my opinion. Drags it out to 35 minutes.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

In my opinion the Beethoven Fifth Symphony sounds best when no repeat is taken in the fourth movement.

Why do conductors insist on taking the fourth movement repeat? You have a terrific fanfare beginning the movement and then you hear it once more in all its glory towards the end of the movement. When the repeat is taken, one hears the fanfare three times, thus emaciating the effect of the final fanfare. 

Well, nobody said conductors are brighter than anybody else, eh?


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

hpowders said:


> In my opinion the Beethoven Fifth Symphony sounds best when no repeat is taken in the fourth movement.


Yes. It's the coda that should be repeated. Maybe twice!


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## scratchgolf (Nov 15, 2013)

hpowders said:


> In my opinion the Beethoven Fifth Symphony sounds best when no repeat is taken in the fourth movement.
> 
> Why do conductors insist on taking the fourth movement repeat? You have a terrific fanfare beginning the movement and then you hear it once more in all its glory towards the end of the movement. When the repeat is taken, one hears the fanfare three times, thus emaciating the effect of the final fanfare.


I rather enjoy the repeat in the finale of B5. The fanfare you mention is my absolute favorite part and i don't consider it to be too much of a good thing. I feel very similarly to the 1st movement of Schubert's 9th, where the repeats create a near identical format to B5 finale. My problem being that my favorite recording (Bohm/Berlin) doesn't take the repeats and my favorites that do (Muti/Vienna and Minkowski/LMdLG) pale in comparison.

As for the movement times that CoAG listed, the 3rd movement of Beethoven 9 clocking in at 13:00 seems terrifyingly fast. I base this off my personal love of Fricsay who clocks in at 18:00. While Fricsay's recording isn't the definitive recording of B9, it's highly popular amongst "Slow lovers" and is certainly my definitive recording.


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## csacks (Dec 5, 2013)

As with so many things in this world, including women, food, sports or even religion, this is all a matter of taste, and who is able to refuse our own taste. Lucky we, there are so many versions. To me, the improvements in sound quality certainly will add something to a piece. After all, the composers just wrote them on a piece of paper. Someone else has to play it, and in that field, there is room enough to improvements. It is like watching a movie in an old TV because it was recorded in the 70´s.


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## Vesteralen (Jul 14, 2011)

Sometimes I feel like listening to HIP, sometimes I don't.

As others have said already - I love having a variety of choices.

Some of my favorite conductors - Szell, Jochum, Steinberg (i.e.) were in their heyday long before HIP became the rage. I'm not going to throw out those great interpretations just because modern scholarship has shown us a different way.


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