# Is Andre Rieu good for classical music?



## Sid James

In another thread, about who is your worst composer, Andre Rieu came up as being described as "scum of the earth" by one blogger. I gave my opinion that, although the music he plays can be repetitive and bland, at least he is introducing people to some popular classical melodies. I said that this might encourage these people to venture beyong what Rieu has to offer and begin exploring the wider classical music repertoire.

So what do people think - is Rieu good or bad (or neither) for classical music? Is he dumbing it down, or making it (at least the light classics) more popular?


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## Tapkaara

Well, I'm not sure if he is good or bad. Maybe both. Maybe neither.

I'd say classical music fans (like ourselves) would be inclined to see him as "bad" because we know he takes snippets from great classical works and puts a vigorous amount of sugar on them and presents them in such a way as to say "Oh, isn't that nice?" Kinda brings out the classical snob in most of us! 

But, if he is the portal through which one of the unwashed enters to develop an appreciation for "real" classical music, than perhaps we sound thank Mr. Rieu for his service to promoting and popularizing an art form we all hold dear.

Personally, I do not like Andre Rieu, and his PBS specials are so sappy and corny...but hey...to each his own!

"Scum of the earth?" I think there are other people in this world more deserving of that title...calling Andre Rieu that is a little much!


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## World Violist

I don't know a whole lot about Rieu, but I really don't care for what I have heard about him. He reminds me a lot of those clueless parents of children who happen to play violin at school; they listen to classical music sometimes just because it's pretty (believe me, I know this situation very well, except I play viola). It takes an interest in what's beyond the prettiness of it to really matter in any way, which I don't get from Rieu in the slightest. He plays his Strauss family waltzes, but that's hardly Mahler or serious Beethoven, and it never will be.


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## jhar26

I think that Andre Rieu is sort of to classical music what James Last is to popular music. I doubt whether people will start listening to 'real' classical music because of him. Most of his fans think that when they listen to Rieu that they are listening to the real thing already. I imagine that the typical Rieu fan's cd collection consists of a couple of albums from him, maybe one or two of James Last, a Frank Sinatra greatest hits, the three tenors concert, a Julio Iglesias album, the soundtrack from Mama Mia and maybe the four seasons from Vivaldi. Some of the music in their collection may be pretty good, or even very good - but overall the interests of these people don't fit the profile of someone on the verge of exploring the works of Bach or Mahler.

I'd just like to add that I don't regard 'light music' from Strauss, Lehar, Zeller or the rest of those guys as inferior music. It takes talent to write a good melody, a catchy tune and some of these composers had that gift in abundance.


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## Yagan Kiely

> I doubt whether people will start listening to 'real' classical music because of him.


Put it this way, the very few that _do_ start listening to real classical music is greatly outnumbered by those to whomeclassical music has been (ignorant to them) destroyed.


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## Moldyoldie

Scum of the earth?!? Gimme a break.

Andre Rieu's popularity emanates from an inherent "it" factor for television, a fine sense of style and love for an audience -- the man is a superb showman! Begrudging his, or anyone's popularity is the epitome of conceit.

Musically speaking, how do his shows appreciably differ from the annual New Year's Day concerts of the Vienna Philharmonic?


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## Tapkaara

jhar26 said:


> I think that Andre Rieu is sort of to classical music what James Last is to popular music. I doubt whether people will start listening to 'real' classical music because of him. Most of his fans think that when they listen to Rieu that they are listening to the real thing already. I imagine that the typical Rieu fan's cd collection consists of a couple of albums from him, maybe one or two of James Last, a Frank Sinatra greatest hits, the three tenors concert, a Julio Iglesias album, the soundtrack from Mama Mia and maybe the four seasons from Vivaldi.


Brilliant!


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## World Violist

Moldyoldie said:


> Scum of the earth?!? Gimme a break.
> 
> Andre Rieu's popularity emanates from an inherent "it" factor for television, a fine sense of style and love for an audience -- the man is a superb showman! Begrudging his, or anyone's popularity is the epitome of conceit.


This brings Karajan to mind, really, and Bernstein. These two classical kings of the media were very stylish, loved their audiences, etc. (this is in no way comparing their musical style or anything at all like that, mind you; nor am I putting down or endorsing either of the parties involved; I'll let my other posts speak for me)



> Musically speaking, how do his shows appreciably differ from the annual New Year's Day concerts of the Vienna Philharmonic?


I think the main question here is not whether or not the VPO's New Year's concerts are similar, it's whether or not you would like to have those concerts as your main foray into classical music.


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## Yagan Kiely

> Andre Rieu's popularity emanates from an inherent "it" factor for television, a fine sense of style and love for an audience -- the man is a superb showman! Begrudging his, or anyone's popularity is the epitome of conceit.


Yes, a showman, not a musician. And is popularity emanates from a huge amount of ugly advertising factor.

Musically speaking, how do his shows appreciably differ from the annual New Year's Day concerts of the Vienna Philharmonic?[/quote]The fact that he destroys whatever he touches, he can't actually play very well, and is completely unmusical and does not portray anything the music is meant to.


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## Sid James

Yagan Kiely said:


> The fact that he destroys whatever he touches, he can't actually play very well, and is completely unmusical and does not portray anything the music is meant to.


I disagree that he can't play well. I'm not a musician, but to my ears, he seems to be getting the melody right and hitting the right notes, etc. Of course, that does not mean that he is more than an average violinist. You can't compare him to Perlman or Vengerov, but why bother doing that anyway? & I do agree that he is more of a showman than an artist. Like with Liberace, it's all about him, the man is the music.

But basically, I don't think he is attracting the younger generation because his music is about nostalgia. If you are in your 20s and listen to things like Coldplay, Amy Winehouse & Gwen Stefani, you won't be interested in what Rieu has to offer, or in any type of classical music probably. Perhaps as one of the bloggers alluded to, if you're into more easy listening, you're a baby boomer or older, he probably appeals to you because the music is about a kind of rosy view of the past. I don't think he's distorting this music, because that's what light classics and operetta is all about. It's basically meant to be superficial and light hearted. (That said, I myself am not a fan of this type of music).


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## Yagan Kiely

> I disagree that he can't play well. I'm not a musician, but to my ears, he seems to be getting the melody right and hitting the right notes, etc.


Modification much?



> . Of course, that does not mean that he is more than an average violinist. You can't compare him to Perlman


Actually I think the two are similar 'quality'. Stern on the other hand...



> I don't think he's distorting this music, because that's what light classics and operetta is all about.


All the good classical music he plays has a lot more subtlety and varieties of expression than his dead-pan EVERYTHING IN THE WORLD IS WONDERFUL YAY!


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## Sid James

Yagan Kiely said:


> Yes, a showman, not a musician. And is popularity emanates from a huge amount of ugly advertising factor.


I agree he is more of a showman rather than a musician but he is kind of creating a niche market, which the usual classical concert format does not cater for. It is classical music for the masses, much like Liberace did decades ago. I suppose it makes the music more accessible, as he uses a good dose of humour to get the audience involved. People who are somewhat intimidated by your traditional concert can feel more at ease and entertained by what Rieu has to offer.

That said, I'm not a big fan of his. I think what he offers is basically unchallenging and bland. If I want to see operetta or something like that, I'd go to see that. But of course, that is usually very expensive. It's a whole other issue how, partly due to the prices (despite the fact that it is partly subsidised by government) classical music is basically unaffordable and inaccessible to many people. Compared to hearing a rock or jazz band down at the local pub or something, anyway. But that's a whole new can of worms that I won't get into (maybe needs a separate forum)...


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## jhar26

Andre said:


> But of course, that is usually very expensive. It's a whole other issue how, partly due to the prices (despite the fact that it is partly subsidised by government) classical music is basically unaffordable and inaccessible to many people. Compared to hearing a rock or jazz band down at the local pub or something, anyway.


Compared to hearing a band at the local pub or something, yes. But paying a good seat for a top act in rock is something many people can't afford either these days.


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## JoeGreen

ahahah, how Ironic, as I'm reading this there is an ad for Andre Rieus lates tour on the top of the page...


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## cmb

> I imagine that the typical Rieu fan's cd collection consists of a couple of albums from him, maybe one or two of James Last, a Frank Sinatra greatest hits, the three tenors concert, a Julio Iglesias album, the soundtrack from Mama Mia and maybe the four seasons from Vivaldi.


Well said.

@JoeGreen: the ads take their cue from the content of the page, so as long as we talk about Rieu, the more ads about him will appear.

You would be surprised at how many regular classical music listeners (those who tune in for 2-3 hours a day on my station) LIKE the light classics. They request them, so they must like them. 
Not everyone can listen to Der Fliengende Hollander and have that be the intro to classical music, but then I always was a wierd kid...


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## mcrosbie

Well said! There are some young orchestras in smaller communities that put on performances that are affordable. The "bigger" the name an orchestra achieves the most costly the performances.


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## handlebar

While I don't like what Rieu stands for and promotes, I also have nothing against the fellow. He does produce a product that some want and makes a lot of money doing it. Pure capitalism,which I espouse.
I consider him like the Liberace of classical. Like same, he plays snippets and parts in order to appease the "musical" part of his audience. 

Just not my thing.

Jim


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## Edward Elgar

He just plays the violin 1 part!!! A lot of his music comprises of bad medleys of over-popular tunes!!!

Is Andre Rieu good for classical music? No.


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## emiellucifuge

His audiences do not delve further into the world of classical music. To them, waltzes and dances are the definition of it. They go to his concerts and enjoy the beautiful melodies but think no further.

I am not one of those who believe his concerts are blasphemous. I believe that a lot of the pieces he plays were designed to entertain anyway, and yes he does use amplification and he may not create refined masterpieces each time but at least he fulfills the entertainment criteria. And if a huge audience is entertained through the valuable gem-like melodies of Strauss then it think this is a victory.

Last year André was the highest paid musician in the world.


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## Il Seraglio

You know, I've never honestly taken the time to listen to Andre Rieu's performances (TV and youtube aside) so don't feel inclined to judge them too harshly one way or another, but the man himself sounds like an absolute tool to me. He blames his lack of acceptance among the musical establishment on the stuffiness and snobbery of the establishment itself. Plus I hate the way he encourages the audience to sing at his concerts (I suppose that is no worse than Glenn Gould singing at the piano, but at least he had the good grace to stick to studio recordings where his voice could be filtered out).


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## Argus

I've watched a couple of his performances when they've been on TV (one was in Vienna and the other in London) and quite enjoyed them. I like the element of pantomime to them. I haven't heard him interviewed but I can see what Il Seraglio means about him coming off as a bit of a bellend. I think it's his hair.


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## jimji

*A balanced take on Andre?*

I had an open mind toward Andre and his impact on the public as regards Classical Music. That is until I saw my first concert. It was a TV show of his Melbourne concerts. (I live in Australia) As the time passed I became more and more restless. Waiting. Waiting. Just to hear one single piece with strong heart.. guts. I'm thinking surely it's not ALL going to be swaying Strauss, dancing and sweet singing. Surely he's gonna' throw in one Chopin, Rachmaninoff, Schubert, Beethoven, Brahms ... something! I turned it off after about an hour realising there would be no "meat." That's when I decided he is doing a disservice to Classical music. I mean hey! He could sneak in just one single passionate, complex piece.
Jim


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## Sid James

jimji said:


> ...Surely he's gonna' throw in one Chopin, Rachmaninoff, Schubert, Beethoven, Brahms ... something! I turned it off after about an hour realising there would be no "meat." That's when I decided he is doing a disservice to Classical music. I mean hey! He could sneak in just one single passionate, complex piece...


From what I've heard, he does play some of those, even throws in a bit of opera (the popular highlights, say from _Carmen_), but it depends on the place he's playing. Maybe his market researchers did a survey & found out that the Australians would most likely want a Strauss-fest? I don't know if that's how it works, but he tries to perform a bit differently wherever he goes in the world. But I don't think people go to his concerts for the music, more to be entertained. He's more of an entertainer than a musician, IMO...


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## jimji

*Andre*

Well that's good to know. That at least somewhere, sometime he plays some "meat"!
You said, "from what I've heard he does play some of those" Are you sure? Have you seen a concert playlist? Anyway there are so many classical pieces with lofty, lyrical, spiritual and emotional themes that don't need audience swaying, dance troups, clapping along etc.
How about a deeply contemplative Chopin nocture or a movement from Brahms or Beethoven that hit the solar plexus!
C'mon Andre .. you've got a new world audience some of whom would never have bothered with "Classical" Now that you've got them - open up their minds/hearts a bit.
Jim


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## Conor71

Ive never actually heard Andre Rieu but of course am aware of him due to his marketing machine! - From what I have read or heard about him I dont think his version of the classics is for me but I dont think there is anything inherently wrong with him either!.
I think sometimes we tend to view Classical Listeners as being more passionate or serious that your average listener wheras in reality there is a whole spectrum of interest in Classical .


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## michael walsh

*Pretentiousness*

Sadly, this thread is clear evidence of the pretentiousness of some who subscribe to Talk Classical. They have learned nothing at all from thed masters!


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## David58117

Andre who? 

Okay I have to admit, outside of my classical music collection, my personal books on the topic, and this website, I don't keep track at all with what's going on within the genre. 

But if he's putting the names of "tchaikovsky" and others in front of people who otherwise wouldn't know them - he sounds good for the genre to me!


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## GraemeG

jhar26 said:


> I think that Andre Rieu is sort of to classical music what James Last is to popular music. I doubt whether people will start listening to 'real' classical music because of him. Most of his fans think that when they listen to Rieu that they are listening to the real thing already. I imagine that the typical Rieu fan's cd collection consists of a couple of albums from him, maybe one or two of James Last, a Frank Sinatra greatest hits, the three tenors concert, a Julio Iglesias album, the soundtrack from Mama Mia and maybe the four seasons from Vivaldi. Some of the music in their collection may be pretty good, or even very good - but overall the interests of these people don't fit the profile of someone on the verge of exploring the works of Bach or Mahler.
> 
> I'd just like to add that I don't regard 'light music' from Strauss, Lehar, Zeller or the rest of those guys as inferior music. It takes talent to write a good melody, a catchy tune and some of these composers had that gift in abundance.


A fine summary. The respect that Brahms and Wagner had for Strauss is indicative of its quality.
Mr Rieu, on the other hand, appears to be a kind of visual Mantovani for the 21st century. You have to get to the local patisserie to find that much cheese and sugar in the one place. Still, in the same way some people eat nothing but hot chips, fatty rubbish and rarely let a vegetable pass their lips, so do they like their musical appetites satisfied by the aural equivalent of their physical diet...

Have watched most of a Rieu DVD once. Couldn't finish it - had to go and get diabetic medication.
cheers,
Graeme


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## Marc

Rieu's father (André Rieu sr., 1917-1992) was a rather well-known conductor in the Netherlands. He conducted a.o. the Limburg Symphony Orchestra and the Amsterdam Chamber Orchestra. Among the members of the Amsterdam orchestra were Herman Krebbers (first violinist of the Concertgebouw Orchestra) and a certain Gustav Leonhardt.

With this 'band', Rieu sr. made his best-known recording: Cantata BWV 206 of J.S. Bach (label: _Das Alte Werk_; Telefunken), which is still regarded as a very modern approach to Bach, considering the fact that it was recorded in the early sixties:










Back to Junior: personally, I never listen to him. I do not have any CD nor DVD. 
But once in a while I see him on the telly, and the entire audience seems to have a really good time. What's more to wish for?
Many people aren't interested in classical music, but Rieu jr. makes it a party for them. Not much wrong with that, IMO.

Oh, and does he know how to play the violin?
My guess is: yes. But he has chosen to play mainly _Wiener Blut_ music and other melodic classical hits, simply because he loves to do that, and because he likes to entertain.

In fact, the entire Rieu family is very musical. I once read that every member plays an instrument. Rieu jr. began playing the violin at the age of five, and got lessons from a.o. the above-mentioned Herman Krebbers. He finished his violin studies in Brussels, with a _Premier Prix_.

Btw: I doubt if he's really extravagant rich. Recently it became known that his company suffers great debts and all the instruments of his orchestra were in pledge with a bank. It looks as if he's more interested in his succes as an artist than in becoming the richest musician of the world.

In general, I would like to say: the quality of music isn't depending of the fact that a certain musician plays it or not. Even if one suggests that Rieu did ruin Shostakovich' _Second Waltz_, this doesn't ruin the composition or the composer itself c.q. himself.

But at least it certainly didn't ruin Shostakovich' popularity, either.


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## Grosse Fugue

With a lack of music education in schools anything that out the music out there is a good thing. May not help that much but I don't think it hurts either. 

But if people do say,"I like classical music" meaning they like Rieu it might want to make people try it a bit more.


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## nefigah

GraemeG said:


> A fine summary. The respect that Brahms and Wagner had for Strauss is indicative of its quality.
> Mr Rieu, on the other hand, appears to be a kind of visual Mantovani for the 21st century. You have to get to the local patisserie to find that much cheese and sugar in the one place. Still, in the same way some people eat nothing but hot chips, fatty rubbish and rarely let a vegetable pass their lips, so do they like their musical appetites satisfied by the aural equivalent of their physical diet...
> 
> Have watched most of a Rieu DVD once. Couldn't finish it - had to go and get diabetic medication.
> cheers,
> Graeme


Hey now, I love fries but not Andre Rieu


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## RozzlobenyNetvor

*Rieu is not a scumbag, but he is ???*

Well, Rieu is not a "scumbag". I would reserve that for people like George Soros and the like. BUT, Rieu has that CONSTANT, ANNOYING, ARTIFICAL-LOOKING smile, that I cannot stand. So does Itzhak Perlman, although Perlman can play things other than Strauss waltzes. Yes, Rieu is presenting a FORM of "classical" music, but that is like saying Diane Bish is presenting organ music. At any rate, Rieu's smile and mannerisms, and talking down to the audience TURNS ME OFF. If I see him on any channel, I CHANGE the channel.


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## moody

RozzlobenyNetvor said:


> Well, Rieu is not a "scumbag". I would reserve that for people like George Soros and the like. BUT, Rieu has that CONSTANT, ANNOYING, ARTIFICAL-LOOKING smile, that I cannot stand. So does Itzhak Perlman, although Perlman can play things other than Strauss waltzes. Yes, Rieu is presenting a FORM of "classical" music, but that is like saying Diane Bish is presenting organ music. At any rate, Rieu's smile and mannerisms, and talking down to the audience TURNS ME OFF. If I see him on any channel, I CHANGE the channel.


I believe he has his own channel now.


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## PetrB

Studies have been done, especially around the presentation, marketing, and what results as far as 'bringing new customers' into the fold. The results show that most consumers of the Andre Rieu sort of light classical musicians never go 'further' into the classical repertoire, but stay with those pops collections of 'the hit movements / bits' from the classical repertoire.

The very greater majority of that consumer base who hear, say, a highly pop / schmaltzed up version of a movement from a Brahms piece do not then go to the actual piece by Brahms, or purchase a ticket to the symphony playing a 'regular' classical program.

This is the same whether it is Andre and his fiddle, Andrea Bocelli or the other popera performers, or a Liberace or two or three.

Conclusion: a niche market which produces barely one 'convert.'

The result of these presentations is very much the same for those symphonic evenings of the movie score played live with the movie, the special performance of the full orchestration of the 'Legend of Zelda' score, etc.

Niche market, very little 'crossover' by its consumers to straight-ahead classical.

Arguments, then, that these light classical performers are a good / best 'first exposure' to kids, for example, are wholly fallacious.

I have a hard time thinking of anything really 'bad for' classical music. Since I was first introduced to 'the real thing,' I find a ready reaction to the light classical ilk which is Rieu and others, 'bad music making.'


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## Novelette

Sid James said:


> In another thread, about who is your worst composer, Andre Rieu came up as being described as "scum of the earth" by one blogger. I gave my opinion that, although the music he plays can be repetitive and bland, at least he is introducing people to some popular classical melodies. I said that this might encourage these people to venture beyong what Rieu has to offer and begin exploring the wider classical music repertoire.
> 
> So what do people think - is Rieu good or bad (or neither) for classical music? Is he dumbing it down, or making it (at least the light classics) more popular?


A lot of people really enjoy Rieu's performances, and that's totally fine with me. I don't care for it, myself. Nevertheless, my approach to music is simply that a person should listen to what they enjoy, without being criticized for it. Rieu makes most of the works that he plays a bit exaggeratedly mellifluous, emphasizing the melody while blending the harmony into a far more dependent accompaniment, often with treble flourishes to emphasize the melody on top.

*Edit: Removed the speculation about people possibly expanding their palate by impetus of Rieu, I didn't read PetrB's comment until now.*

But I'm sure that there is one thing about Andre Rieu that most of us can agree upon, he is a very talented violinist.


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## EddieRUKiddingVarese

From what I have seen of Rieu, which is not much more than a couple of DVD's - which I thought similar to watching an episode of Escape to the Country or other such stuff. 

I have no real complaints about what he does - he has even toured down under a couple of times, in a way that seems like a cross between a Circus and a Rock tour. Was very popular here and I think its gets people in as much for the spectacle as the music, with all the costumes a bit like a theatrical production of Cats or similar. Hope he never teams up with ALW, god helps us all.

Definitely not my cup of tea!


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## elgar's ghost

Although Rieu and his ilk doesn't bother me at all I if it has been proven that his style of entertainment doesn't on the whole encourage deeper investigation into classical music I suppose it's a bit like following T20 cricket with all its attendant razamataz and quick-fix thrills but never wanting to see a full-blown test match which warrants more patience and concentration.


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## DavidA

There is a whole load of rubbish written about people like Andre Rieu. Quite simply he is an entertainer and one who does his business very well if the number of people who listen to him are anything to judge by. Why people should bellyache about him is quite beyond me. If you don't like it then don't listen to it! But don't let's have a load of musical snobbery which is usually built on envy of someone else's success. The guy is a fine musician who does very well at entertaining people who like that sort of music. I don't but I've no problem with people who do. Good luck to Andre Rieu. And if he can annoy some more musical snobs then more power to his elbow!


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## moody

elgars ghost said:


> Although Rieu and his ilk doesn't bother me at all I if it has been proven that his style of entertainment doesn't on the whole encourage deeper investigation into classical music I suppose it's a bit like following T20 cricket with all its attendant razamataz and quick-fix thrills but never wanting to see a full-blown test match which warrants more patience and concentration.


Careful there,most of them won't know what you are talking about.


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## moody

DavidA said:


> There is a whole load of rubbish written about people like Andre Rieu. Quite simply he is an entertainer and one who does his business very well if the number of people who listen to him are anything to judge by. Why people should bellyache about him is quite beyond me. If you don't like it then don't listen to it! But don't let's have a load of musical snobbery which is usually built on envy of someone else's success. The guy is a fine musician who does very well at entertaining people who like that sort of music. I don't but I've no problem with people who do. Good luck to Andre Rieu. And if he can annoy some more musical snobs then more power to his elbow!


So you're on to the snob thing again---the question was whether he was good for classical music---not whether he was a good entertainer.


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## Mesa

Big budget, HD friendly light classical music still usually pisses on the majority of popular alternatives from great height. If it pleases a lot of people, then i imagine a large handful of composers would agree that it's basically a good thing.

The downside is (oh come on, you're all thinking it), the thick tossers that go to such events so they can tell everyone. "Oh, it was heavenly! He is a really good violinist! Not really your kind of thing, a bit highbrow for you maybe?"

TalkClassical: The musical brow adorning the highest point of the internet.


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## DavidA

moody said:


> So you're on to the snob thing again---the question was whether he was good for classical music---not whether he was a good entertainer.


If you actually read the context of what the question was asked he said: "In another thread, about who is your worst composer, Andre Rieu came up as being described as "scum of the earth" by one blogger"
My comment was made to this which you will see is in context.


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## moody

DavidA said:


> If you actually read the context of what the question was asked he said: "In another thread, about who is your worst composer, Andre Rieu came up as being described as "scum of the earth" by one blogger"
> My comment was made to this which you will see is in context.


Yes David,but the actual question was.."Is Rieu good or bad (or neither) for classical music? Is he dumbing it down or making it more popular ?"
Firstly,the scum thing is certainly not to be countenanced and I suppose the actual answer is "neither" he's not important from the classical music angle.
This has all been thrashed out last year,this thread is four years old.
An important point,I don't his Viennese stuff is particularly good in any case.
I'm not sure that it's worth the candle to dignify Mr. Rieu with much coverage.


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## DavidA

moody said:


> Yes David,but the actual question was.."Is Rieu good or bad (or neither) for classical music? Is he dumbing it down or making it more popular ?"
> Firstly,the scum thing is certainly not to be countenanced and I suppose the actual answer is "neither" he's not important from the classical music angle.
> This has all been thrashed out last year,this thread is four years old.
> An important point,I don't his Viennese stuff is particularly good in any case.
> I'm not sure that it's worth the candle to dignify Mr. Rieu with much coverage.


Sorry, Moody, but as I tried to explain to you, the comment was on the post.

Of course the gentleman in question is giving valuable employment to good musicians, whether you like him or not. I am all for good musicians being in employment. They probably go on to play Beethoven and Mahler after they have finished with Mr Rieu. I bet the musicians don't have the same opinion of him as you do.

In addition he is giving a lot of pleasure to a lot of people. If they are prepared to listen to him and pay for it then good luck to him. I don't suppose he is particularly bothered what we or the members of TC think as he laughs his way to the bank!


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## Kieran

A chap I used to work with declared his love for music by travelling to France to hear Rieu perform an outdoor concert. I forgot as soon as he told me. He came back from France and came to my office. He stood before me and I shook my head. Eventually, he said he'd been to the concert and I nodded, remembering. "How was it?"

He said that Rieu had proudly boasted long before that he never played an outdoor concert where it rained. "And guess what? It rained all the way through it."

He left my office and I was glad on both counts: glad that it had pissed rain throughout the show on every single tuxedoed dummy and his broad in the audience, and glad that he'd he'd left my office... 

:tiphat:


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## Tristan

Well, I enjoyed his arrangement of "O Fortuna" and "Pines of the Appian Way". Obviously very showy, but those pieces are showy to begin with. I certainly wouldn't use Andre Rieu as a starting point. 

And is classical music so weak that it can be "ruined" by one man? I don't think so.


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## rrudolph

Tristan said:


> And is classical music so weak that it can be "ruined" by one man? I don't think so.


Exactly the point I was just going to make. Western art music existed for a over a thousand years before Rieu. It will survive him unscathed.

His type of show is not my cup of tea and I would probably never buy a ticket to go see him. That said, as a professional musician if he offered me decent money I'd play the hell out of that schmaltzy stuff!


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## Guest

Listen, I've had to dress up with the wigs and period costumes and period instruments and so on. I've always had enormous fun doing so. Is Andre Rieu good for classical music? Was Liberace? Go to Vienna one day and find out for yourselves.


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## deggial

I've no opinion on AR, as I've barely heard him until now, but this seems the closest thread to admit that I enjoy putting down La Jenkins. Every few months or so I check out the comments on her YT videos just for a helping of schadenfreude.


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## Guest

Sch*a*denfreude. It does have a bit more bite than saying 'gloating', I grant you.


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## deggial

TalkingHead said:


> Sch*a*denfreude. It does have a bit more bite than saying 'gloating', I grant you.


you were quick! I sometimes forget German employs vowels


----------



## Guest

Rather like the English term 'shriek'. Check out the word for 'scarecrow' in German. And then make the connection with the (Wagneria?) term for the opening chord(s) of the 4th movement of LvB's 9th.


----------



## Guest

deggial said:


> you were quick! I sometimes forget German employs vowels


Schss (_senza_ vowels) !!!


----------



## moody

deggial said:


> I've no opinion on AR, as I've barely heard him until now, but this seems the closest thread to admit that I enjoy putting down La Jenkins. Every few months or so I check out the comments on her YT videos just for a helping of schadenfreude.


She is ghastly.


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## Tristan

Pardon me for asking, but who's "La Jenkins"?


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## moody

Tristan said:


> Pardon me for asking, but who's "La Jenkins"?


She's a young hooty contralto marketed as an opera singer--which she is certainly not--by the radio station Classic FM in the UK.
They play the "TOP 20" of the classics world day in and day out ad nauseum.


----------



## ptr

Tristan said:


> Pardon me for asking, but who's "La Jenkins"?


She is the Playboy Mansions resident Mezzo!










/ptr


----------



## deggial

Tristan said:


> Pardon me for asking, but who's "La Jenkins"?


the ending cadenza (where she misses an entire run) is the best!


----------



## DavidA

Sorry, guys, but I have to smile at your righteous indignation! Katherine Jenkins is certainly not my cup of tea. Not as a singer anyway. But she is a very beautiful lady with a reasonable voice who has been marketed well. But the poor girl cannot do anything right in some people's eyes. When she ran at the London marathon some newspaper had a go at her for looking too glamorous. And wearing sunglasses when the sun was out! She did raise £25,000 for a cancer charity in memory of her father. But that did not calm the vitriol of a certain section of the gutter press which had a go at her for looking too glamorous for the occasion.
But as one columnist put it:

The fact that an attack on Katherine Jenkins for making too much effort to look good was accompanied by various photos of her looking good – all served up for public appreciation – is sheer hypocrisy. And you can be sure that had she looked remotely exhausted at the end of the race, some parts of the press would have been delighted to revel in the schadenfreude of the beautiful-person-looks-less-than-beautiful photograph. Give the woman a break.

So do lay off dear Kate. If you do not like her there is one simple solution - don't listen. Getting yourself into a lather and calling her names will not persuade her legion of admirers to desist.


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## DavidA

moody said:


> She's a young hooty contralto marketed as an opera singer--which she is certainly not--by the radio station Classic FM in the UK.
> They play the "TOP 20" of the classics world day in and day out ad nauseum.


No Moody. They play the top 300 of the classics world day in and day out ad nauseum!


----------



## DavidA

ptr said:


> She is the Playboy Mansions resident Mezzo!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> /ptr


Mind you, when you look like that, who needs to sing!

She certainly makes a change from the opera singers whose looks / voice ratio is the other way round. I saw a Valkyrie recently who would have collapsed the horse under her.


----------



## PetrB

Put another way, Andre Rieu is only 'good for' that niche market of light and lightly done pops classical. It is a genre apart, which takes nothing from the customer base for the less than light classical music.

That niche market is a market, far more 'capitalist mercenary' than classical 'art music,' but it is difficult to prove that niche market performer has 'sold out.' or such. 

A friend of mine trained in piano, and through graduate or master's level in classical piano performance, loved and performed well the usual repertoire as well as some early 20th century, Prokofiev, Rachmaninov, etc.

Some ten years after, both performing and teaching, she began to compose: she has a very decent success, now, with "World-Music' she composes which gets regularly performed. I believe there is no 'sell-out,' but that she found a liking and 'natural affinity for' the particular genre, and what she makes is 'sincere.'

This sort of history is not uncommon, i.e. a full immersion in classical 'art music,' an early and complete training up to a very high and accomplished level, and what seems a volte face switch to 'lighter' genres of pop music. Some who make the decision to write a particular way can be more than suspected of 'selling out,' (Lodovico Euinadi) while others are more than likely utterly sincere in what they make (Yiruma, perhaps). It is exactly the same situation when a performer decides to emphasize one genre or a particular repertoire.

The 'product' is so something else from 'classical art music' that it takes nothing away from the slice of the pie due classical art music. None of the lighter genres --the following backed up by numerous studies -- 'turns' much of anybody into a true fan of classical art music. 

That last is always the argument of why the light classical performers are 'good for' classical music. They're not. They are only good for their niche market and nothing else.


----------



## DavidA

PetrB said:


> The 'product' is so something else from 'classical art music' that it takes nothing away from the slice of the pie due classical art music. None of the lighter genres --the following backed up by numerous studies -- 'turns' much of anybody into a true fan of classical art music.
> 
> That last is always the argument of why the light classical performers are 'good for' classical music. They're not. They are only good for their niche market and nothing else.


The value of the light pop classics (including film music) is that it gives many fine musicians employment. Read Andre Previn's 'No Minor Chords' about his Hollywood years.


----------



## moody

deggial said:


> the ending cadenza (where she misses an entire run) is the best!


The whole thing was awful,if you can actually take your eyes off the young lady and listen only there is no expression there at all.
As for DavidA, if she doesn't want criticism as all artists (?) will get ,the best thing to do is not to make a fool of yourself. By the way when you read the critics following an opera performance do you say the same sort of thing.
She's easy on the eye but that's all the talent she has.


----------



## PetrB

DavidA said:


> The value of the light pop classics (including film music) is that it gives many fine musicians employment. Read Andre Previn's 'No Minor Chords' about his Hollywood years.


Wal-mart employs people too. Conservatory students play in an 'all female string ensemble' booked to hotels and conventions. Hotels and restaurants hire classically trained pianists to softly play edited classical repertoire (the louder dynamic is 'leveled out' by the player, and the more 'agitated' bits cut - take the middle section out of the first movement of Beethoven's 'Moonlight' sonata and you'll have the premise.)

Your point was?


----------



## moody

Tristan said:


> Pardon me for asking, but who's "La Jenkins"?


Well,you certainly know who she is now,don't you!!


----------



## PetrB

moody said:


> Well,you certainly know who she is now,don't you!!


There are many performers and that much more music that one would be happier having never known about at all. I'm afraid I have a list, none of whom I 'found' or looked up on my own, but their names are floating about in the ethers we breate. Very Successful PR 

Things like 'Brad & Jen broke up,' knowing of Andrea Boccelli, Lodovico Eunaudi, Yiruma, Katherine Jenkins, Sarah Brightman, Josh Grobin, Carl Jenkins, Andrew Lloyd Weber, etc. are all especially unavoidable if one is on a forum such as this, more so if it is the Yahoo Answers Classical Music category, or for that matter, your peripheral vision taking in a bank of 'star' magazines at the grocery check out counter (Brad & Jen, sad sad sad.)

I recall Sherlock Holmes 'theory' that any brain cell busy with useless information is one less which could be used for something better... the brain does not quite work that way, but I adhere to Sherlock's premise.


----------



## DavidA

moody said:


> The whole thing was awful,if you can actually take your eyes off the young lady and listen only there is no expression there at all.
> As for DavidA, if she doesn't want criticism as all artists (?) will get ,the best thing to do is not to make a fool of yourself. By the way when you read the critics following an opera performance do you say the same sort of thing.
> She's easy on the eye but that's all the talent she has.


Oh Moody! Why get yourself in such a state? Just don't listen to her.

Her singing is certainly not to my taste. Neither is Andre What's his name and his violin. But how annoying that so many people pay good money to hear them! They are successful - a word much hated by critics who usually are not! That's why critics go into paroxysms of rage about people like Ms Jenkins.

BTW didn't your friend Campoli do a good line in salon music?


----------



## DavidA

PetrB said:


> Wal-mart employs people too. Conservatory students play in an 'all female string ensemble' booked to hotels and conventions. Hotels and restaurants hire classically trained pianists to softly play edited classical repertoire (the louder dynamic is 'leveled out' by the player, and the more 'agitated' bits cut - take the middle section out of the first movement of Beethoven's 'Moonlight' sonata and you'll have the premise.)
> 
> Your point was?


I am pleased when musicians are employed. I think you'll find many 'serious' musicians make up their salary in playing lighter repertoire.


----------



## DavidA

PetrB said:


> There are many performers and that much more music that one would be happier having never known about at all. I'm afraid I have a list, none of whom I 'found' or looked up on my own, but their names are floating about in the ethers we breate. Very Successful PR


Why not publish the list. I am sure the people on it will be heartbroken as they laugh their way to the bank!

Gershwin asked Stravinsky for lessons in composition. When Stravinsky found out how much Gershwin earned he said to him: "I think I should take lessons from you!"


----------



## deggial

PetrB said:


> Hotels and restaurants hire classically trained pianists to softly play edited classical repertoire (the louder dynamic is 'leveled out' by the player, and the more 'agitated' bits cut - take the middle section out of the first movement of Beethoven's 'Moonlight' sonata and you'll have the premise.)


oooh, this reminds me of that Bill Bailey skit where he was talking about his stint as a hotel (?) entertainer/lounge performer falling asleep on the keyboard, his head/nose/etc. hitting an unexpected chord, which gave the audience the feeling he was playing a "daring" jazz piece :lol:


----------



## deggial

DavidA said:


> Mind you, when you look like that, who needs to sing!


good point, but then why market herself as a singer and not simply as a model? As far as opera singers' looks, I'd take Diana Damrau over Jenkins without even blinking. That vacant-eyed, plastic doll look doesn't do much for me.


----------



## presto

moody said:


> The whole thing was awful,if you can actually take your eyes off the young lady and listen only there is no expression there at all.
> As for DavidA, if she doesn't want criticism as all artists (?) will get ,the best thing to do is not to make a fool of yourself. By the way when you read the critics following an opera performance do you say the same sort of thing.
> She's easy on the eye but that's all the talent she has.


Wash your mouth out!
Katherine Jenkins is beautiful and can do no wrong.


----------



## ArtMusic

She was relying on pure technique to deliver in that clip above.


----------



## CypressWillow

I had a dream: Liberace and Florence Foster Jenkins came back from the dead and reincarnated as Andre Rieu and Katherine Jenkins.


----------



## moody

ArtMusic said:


> She was relying on pure technique to deliver in that clip above.


Unfortunately there was no technique whatever in that clip--she was all at sea.


----------



## moody

presto said:


> Wash your mouth out!
> Katherine Jenkins is beautiful and can do no wrong.


She is beautiful but you can hear her doing wrong above.


----------



## PetrB

DavidA said:


> I am pleased when musicians are employed. I think you'll find many 'serious' musicians make up their salary in playing lighter repertoire.


Pleased you are pleased or other, many of them take them, glad for the money while hating the material and the gig. Do enough of it, your technique gets sloppy as hell, you lose all tone color, etc. because all that repertoire does not command those aspects.

Right after conservatory, the more private students and classical gigs I got, the happier I became. I was ecstatic when the client base became large enough in 'classical' that I could say "no" to the next offer to play and or play and direct a musical. I am not exceptional out of many classical musicians in that regard.


----------



## PetrB

DavidA said:


> Why not publish the list. I am sure the people on it will be heartbroken as they laugh their way to the bank!
> 
> Gershwin asked Stravinsky for lessons in composition. When Stravinsky found out how much Gershwin earned he said to him: "I think I should take lessons from you!"


I'm thinking it is more than unlikely that you have a direct career in 'fine art' of any sort. Your angle is like the cliche businessman urging the fine painter to do commercial art, "because the money is good."

Not that those in the fine arts do not need, want or appreciate money, but it is a far call from the 'bottom line.'

As I mentioned in a post above, it is well known that x number of gigs in the lighter genres actually takes a toll on your technical polish and musicality. That phenomenon, well known to the musicians and not otherwise generally known, is why so many in the arts routinely do not go for (or politely turn down) such jobs at least as often as they are taken.


----------



## moody

DavidA said:


> No Moody. They play the top 300 of the classics world day in and day out ad nauseum!


They actually play the top 300 from their listeners' votes and they are fed exactly what Classic FM are payed to play---in my opinion of course!


----------



## moody

DavidA said:


> Oh Moody! Why get yourself in such a state? Just don't listen to her.
> 
> Her singing is certainly not to my taste. Neither is Andre What's his name and his violin. But how annoying that so many people pay good money to hear them! They are successful - a word much hated by critics who usually are not! That's why critics go into paroxysms of rage about people like Ms Jenkins.
> 
> BTW didn't your friend Campoli do a good line in salon music?
> 
> He was more or less forced into it by the mid-twenties recession when even your friend Heifetz found it hard to fill a hall .
> It came about through an offer from Decca to record some light classics ,a piece called "Serenade" by Heykins sold half a million copies in a few months causing his name to be widely known.
> A large number of musicians were forced out of the profession by events at the time.
> I think the point is that he was very good at what he did while Ms. Jenkins is fairly mediocre.


----------



## DavidA

PetrB said:


> Pleased you are pleased or other, many of them take them, glad for the money while hating the material and the gig. Do enough of it, your technique gets sloppy as hell, you lose all tone color, etc. because all that repertoire does not command those aspects.
> 
> Right after conservatory, the more private students and classical gigs I got, the happier I became. I was ecstatic when the client base became large enough in 'classical' that I could say "no" to the next offer to play and or play and direct a musical. I am not exceptional out of many classical musicians in that regard.


That's fine. But then don't look down on others who are doing the same.

On holiday recently I had the privilege of hearing some tremendous musicians who were playing a jazz session. A sheer pleasure to listen to as they were so good. A few days later I heard the same guys in a dance / big band set. Fantastic!
Here we're fine musicians earning a crust yet giving a lot of pleasure to people. And enjoying themselves hugely. That is surely what music is about.

If you want to play it the other way with students, etc, that is fine, if that is your dream. But please don't look down on others who take a different root. Music is music. I appreciate musical talent no matter what.


----------



## DavidA

PetrB said:


> I'm thinking it is more than unlikely that you have a direct career in 'fine art' of any sort. Your angle is like the cliche businessman urging the fine painter to do commercial art, "because the money is good."
> 
> Not that those in the fine arts do not need, want or appreciate money, but it is a far call from the 'bottom line.'
> 
> As I mentioned in a post above, it is well known that x number of gigs in the lighter genres actually takes a toll on your technical polish and musicality. That phenomenon, well known to the musicians and not otherwise generally known, is why so many in the arts routinely do not go for (or politely turn down) such jobs at least as often as they are taken.


Interesting what you say that it takes a toll of technique. Andre Previn reckons that the musicians he played with in the film industry were some of the best he ever played with. It was just that it was somewhat different.

I do smile at your term 'cliched businessman' which is the last thing I am. I am a bloke who buys the CDs and attends the concerts to keep musicians in business! Even the greatest of all artists found that they needed money. Even people like Mozart and Beethoven wrote in less than good pieces (by their standards) so they could earn money. 
I have advised that many young people in careers and I always say to musicians that they are going into a business where there are an awful lot of players and very few winners. You have to be practical. To succeed today as a classical musician you have to have an incredible amount of talent. Then an incredible amount of dedication. Then an incredible amount of luck.
That's why many musicians will have to do something other than just pure classical music to keep body and soul together.
And what about all those people who like light music? Is it a crime to entertain them? 
As for your reference to commercial art I had the privilege of knowing a man who was one of Europe's one of the finest commercial artists. When I saw his art I always marvelled at his sheer skill and talent. I asked him once why he didn't go into pure art with the talent he had. His reply? "Out of 100 pure artists only one has got something to say. I don't want to be one of the 99!"


----------



## DavidA

moody said:


> DavidA said:
> 
> 
> 
> Oh Moody! Why get yourself in such a state? Just don't listen to her.
> 
> Her singing is certainly not to my taste. Neither is Andre What's his name and his violin. But how annoying that so many people pay good money to hear them! They are successful - a word much hated by critics who usually are not! That's why critics go into paroxysms of rage about people like Ms Jenkins.
> 
> BTW didn't your friend Campoli do a good line in salon music?
> 
> He was more or less forced into it by the mid-twenties recession when even your friend Heifetz found it hard to fill a hall .
> It came about through an offer from Decca to record some light classics ,a piece called "Serenade" by Heykins sold half a million copies in a few months causing his name to be widely known.
> A large number of musicians were forced out of the profession by events at the time.
> I think the point is that he was very good at what he did while Ms. Jenkins is fairly mediocre.
> 
> 
> 
> I think most musicians are the same, actually. Very few can afford to play only classical. Most have a side line and good luck to them, I say! It's not that they're doing anything wrong!
> 
> I agree that Ms Jenkins is not Callas. But why do we get into a lather about it?
> 
> I mean, when someone like Lang Lang brings classical music to the masses, he is no good either! No pleasing some people!
Click to expand...


----------



## DavidA

moody said:


> They actually play the top 300 from their listeners' votes and they are fed exactly what Classic FM are payed to play---in my opinion of course!


Classic FM is successful because it gives people what they want. It does exactly what it was meant to do - popular classics which people who are not terribly up on classical music can enjoy while they drive the car or do the housework.
I remember the predictions of doom when it was launched, the critics willing it to fail. But horrors! People liked it and listened!
Now radio 3 has to do similar shows to compete.
From your comments, I fear even you may be a secret listener at times!

Now why don't we form a radio station playing avant-garde music? I bet we'd be flooded with sponsors!


----------



## moody

DavidA said:


> Classic FM is successful because it gives people what they want. It does exactly what it was meant to do - popular classics which people who are not terribly up on classical music can enjoy while they drive the car or do the housework.
> I remember the predictions of doom when it was launched, the critics willing it to fail. But horrors! People liked it and listened!
> Now radio 3 has to do similar shows to compete.
> From your comments, I fear even you may be a secret listener at times!
> 
> Now why don't we form a radio station plane avant-garde music? I bet we'd be flooded with sponsors!


I have no real objection to Ms.Jenkins but only the ridiculous claims made on her behalf and she should not attempt things like the above.
This is where Classic FM are so annoying. A fairly short time ago they introduced Leslie Garrett as Britain's greatest diva,
If they would only play the music and stop the drivel things would be much better in my opinion. I do listen when I'm driving but often get so angry at the nonsense being talked that I switch off.
You do pay for a station that plays avant garde music--it's called BBC 3.


----------



## DavidA

moody said:


> I have no real objection to Ms.Jenkins but only the ridiculous claims made on her behalf and she should not attempt things like the above.
> This is where Classic FM are so annoying. A fairly short time ago they introduced Leslie Garrett as Britain's greatest diva,
> If they would only play the music and stop the drivel things would be much better in my opinion. I do listen when I'm driving but often get so angry at the nonsense being talked that I switch off.
> You do pay for a station that plays avant garde music--it's called BBC 3.


I agree. But I don't think we should let it get to us. I get far more upset listening to the drivel talked by politicians.

It doesn't just happen on Classic FM. The BBC recently introduced Lang Lang as The Worlds greatest pianist. Now I have a higher opinion of him than some here but I had to choke on that!

Classic FM is fine for driving or easy listening because you know if you don't like a piece another will be on soon you do like. For serious listening I have the CD player. Just ignore the drivel.

The one good thing about avant-garde music being played on the radio is that you can switch it off immediately it comes on!


----------



## Crudblud

moody said:


> You do pay for a station that plays avant garde music--it's called BBC 3.


Only occasionally, and only ever late at night. 20th century music in general is off limits for them most of the time. Take their _composer of the week_ feature; normally their schedule would be biased towards this composer, playing multiple pieces of theirs per day, but when they chose Stravinsky they only played a few pieces in the entire week, the rest of the schedule was entirely dominated by the typical Mozart and Beethoven hits and so on. The week of Schubert which preceded that of Stravinsky saw the entire playlist consist of almost nothing but Schubert.


----------



## DavidA

moody said:


> Unfortunately there was no technique whatever in that clip--she was all at sea.


I didn't realise she sang at sea?


----------



## PetrB

DavidA said:


> That's fine. But then don't look down on others who are doing the same.
> 
> On holiday recently I had the privilege of hearing some tremendous musicians who were playing a jazz session. A sheer pleasure to listen to as they were so good. A few days later I heard the same guys in a dance / big band set. Fantastic!
> Here we're fine musicians earning a crust yet giving a lot of pleasure to people. And enjoying themselves hugely. That is surely what music is about.
> 
> If you want to play it the other way with students, etc, that is fine, if that is your dream. But please don't look down on others who take a different root. Music is music. I appreciate musical talent no matter what.


Trust me, no working musician 'looks down' on any other working musicians, regardless of the genre the musicians are working within.

Your Jazz Band Big Band example? Those genres are so closely related that if people, law would not allow them to marry  I.e. there is no great technical 'switch' of embouchure, stylistic inflection, etc. required to do one, then the other.

Those rare and very fine Hollywood studio orchestra musicians are quite equal to their counterparts in major symphony orchestras elsewhere, and the number of playing at that ability_ is rare._

The N.Y. Philharmonic horn player who takes the summer gig playing Broadway musicals does it
A.) Because the pay is higher than his paid post at the NYPhil
B.) Because the workload is by time, half (instead of playing all evening, they play a number of tunes interspersed over the length of the show)
c.) Because that repertoire, for the symphonic player, is a busman's holiday, the part sight-read perfect the first time, the music needing no nuanced shaping by the conductor.

That kind of playing, long-term, leaves the classical player out of practice on the infinite nuance of dynamics, articulation and all the finer points required of a classical player. Too long in that milieu, and those classical technical chops get neglected, other habits are formed, and it takes at least a little while to gain back what was lost.

As far as 'attitude,' more classical players were reflexively saddened and showing respect for the late Michael Jackson than other 'classical consumers' -- because Jackson was a brilliant and hard-working colleague.

I'm sorry if my earlier posts came off as Ivory Tower Elitist or some such. There is a pragmatism necessary about any work, and within any career, including the ones held about which the careerist is impassioned: at the most ideal, there remains about 50% of the career which is 'just work.'

For a young conservatory grad taking those hotel piano gigs, well, they may be 'giving pleasure to many' _while masking their displeasure doing it_ -- _that too, is very much a part of the job,_ i.e. not conveying that you maybe do not love that Concerto you are playing at the symphony, or performing what you consider to be 'butchered' cut versions of classical pieces so 'not to disturb' the customers in the dining room... you've learned that concerto perhaps because it is 'popular' and having it to offer may more readily ensure a gig and a check. Sorry if that has burst some fantasy bubble about how musicians regard, often enough, the music they are performing.


----------



## deggial

DavidA said:


> I didn't realise she sang at sea?


admit it, you were too busy checking out the cleavage


----------



## DavidA

deggial said:


> admit it, you were too busy checking out the cleavage


Might have been lost at sea.


----------



## moody

DavidA said:


> I didn't realise she sang at sea?


She ought to sing in it---actually she'd make a good mermaid.


----------



## deggial

DavidA said:


> I agree that Ms Jenkins is not Callas. But why do we get into a lather about it?


I don't know about moody, but I can tell you why she bothers _me_. I'm not even pretending it's not a petty dislike. I don't like that she's the most famous mezzo today. You could say "you can't blame her for jumping on the gravy train", but she's taking advantage of false advertising. Ask people on the street here in the UK, and let's see how many can tell you who Sarah Connolly or Alice Coote is. Judging by TV and tabloid coverage, a good number will know who KJ is. She rubs me the wrong way when abysmal attempts at such classics as the above are combined with derogatory comments towards real opera singers, who have actually honed their vocal skills and have pursued this career when they could've became a lot more famous by going on shows such as Britain's got Talent. Everybody and their grandma knows who Susan Boyle is. Like I said, it wouldn't have bothered me if she went the modelling route, with the token album thrown in. "Look, she's pretty AND she can sing!", but, no, she gets advertised as a singer and not a pop singer at that. Why? I find it extremely arrogant on her part.


----------



## PetrB

deggial said:


> I don't know about moody, but I can tell you why she bothers _me_. I'm not even pretending it's not a petty dislike. I don't like that she's the most famous mezzo today. You could say "you can't blame her for jumping on the gravy train", but she's taking advantage of false advertising. Ask people on the street here in the UK, and let's see how many can tell you who Sarah Connolly or Alice Coote is. Judging by TV and tabloid coverage, a good number will know who KJ is. She rubs me the wrong way when abysmal attempts at such classics as the above are combined with derogatory comments towards real opera singers, who have actually honed their vocal skills and have pursued this career when they could've became a lot more famous by going on shows such as Britain's got Talent. Everybody and their grandma knows who Susan Boyle is. Like I said, it wouldn't have bothered me if she went the modelling route, with the token album thrown in. "Look, she's pretty AND she can sing!", but, no, she gets advertised as a singer and not a pop singer at that. Why? I find it extremely arrogant on her part.


Don't you just love it when 'singers' _who have never sung a role in a real opera (sans microphones) at any time in their lives _ dis the real opera singers?


----------



## DavidA

deggial said:


> I don't know about moody, but I can tell you why she bothers _me_. I'm not even pretending it's not a petty dislike. I don't like that she's the most famous mezzo today. You could say "you can't blame her for jumping on the gravy train", but she's taking advantage of false advertising. Ask people on the street here in the UK, and let's see how many can tell you who Sarah Connolly or Alice Coote is. Judging by TV and tabloid coverage, a good number will know who KJ is. She rubs me the wrong way when abysmal attempts at such classics as the above are combined with derogatory comments towards real opera singers, who have actually honed their vocal skills and have pursued this career when they could've became a lot more famous by going on shows such as Britain's got Talent. Everybody and their grandma knows who Susan Boyle is. Like I said, it wouldn't have bothered me if she went the modelling route, with the token album thrown in. "Look, she's pretty AND she can sing!", but, no, she gets advertised as a singer and not a pop singer at that. Why? I find it extremely arrogant on her part.


That is the world we live in. Media, looks, etc.. You could name Cheryl Cole from the pop world who looks stunning but can't even sing at all, even by the standards of a pop star. Why is Bocelli the best known tenor? Even among competent soloists Nicola Bennedetti won a contract with DG. Couldn't have been anything to do with her looks being very marketable. same with some of the beautiful young cellists we see staring at us from CD covers.
BUT these people give other people a lot of pleasure if audiences are anything to go by. So I just take the line good luck to them. I have an off switch on my radio if I don't like it.

BTW I haven't heard JK dissing anyone else. Is there a quote?


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## Novelette

moody said:


> The whole thing was awful,if you can actually take your eyes off the young lady and listen only there is no expression there at all.


She _really_ messes up that cadenza.  I didn't even know of Jenkins until now. Another pop-y musician... Not my taste. At all.


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## moody

I suppose the actual answer is that Rieu is not good for classical music,he's just there and you can take him or leave him according to your fancy. But the reason for all the fuss is that he's highly annoying !


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## DavidA

moody said:


> I suppose the actual answer is that Rieu is not good for classical music,he's just there and you can take him or leave him according to your fancy. But the reason for all the fuss is that he's highly annoying !


But if you can take him or leave him, why the fuss?

Into resting there was an article in the Spectator sometime ago. The woman was writing that her elderly mother was listening to the gentleman day in day out, much to her horror. She was really going to direct the old girl towards a better music. However her mother had the dreaded Andre on the television and she said she by the end she was actually tapping and clapping along to the music along with her mother. She came to the conclusion that if it brought her elderly mother so much pleasure then why should she spoil it by dissing Andre?


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## moody

DavidA said:


> But if you can take him or leave him, why the fuss?
> 
> Into resting there was an article in the Spectator sometime ago. The woman was writing that her elderly mother was listening to the gentleman day in day out, much to her horror. She was really going to direct the old girl towards a better music. However her mother had the dreaded Andre on the television and she said she by the end she was actually tapping and clapping along to the music along with her mother. She came to the conclusion that if it brought her elderly mother so much pleasure then why should she spoil it by dissing Andre?


I suppose the answer to your post is that it is annoying to see the man making so much money doing a not particularly good job that others do better.
But the point regarding the lady's mother is well taken.


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## deggial

DavidA said:


> BTW I haven't heard JK dissing anyone else. Is there a quote?


there are quotes. I'll have to get back to you on that one later this week, as I'm very busy today and tomorrow.


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## moody

deggial said:


> there are quotes. I'll have to get back to you on that one later this week, as I'm very busy today and tomorrow.


We'll miss you I'm sure !!


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## PetrB

moody said:


> I suppose the answer to your post is that it is annoying to see the man making so much money doing a not particularly good job that others do better.
> But the point regarding the lady's mother is well taken.


There is beyond a host of popular genre performers whose music I completely refrain from dissing exactly for that reason, the fans of it are genuinely entertained, deeply moved, etc. No reason to dis it because I hear 'Frank' consistently singing a few cents flat on most of those recordings, and that kind of effect has me near running out of the room.

I don't have to extol the virtues of Frank, either, or be a hypocrite and agree his singing is wonderful, the music great. Just keep the mouth shut and let others have their pleasures.

To the rest, one cannot even blame the performers when there is a now an expected and in-place publicity 'machine' which has gone over the top in promoting artist X over artist Y - this exactly because those artists and their 'products' -- in the more popular genres -- are so often exactly interchangeable that if there were not a spectacularly inflated hype publicity machine in place, they would not achieve their status in that niche. Many of those performers in the lighter end of classical did not 'come up' through the normal channels, missed the usual influences which would have taught, and demanded of them, a very different decorum as to how they present themselves. That is part of the reason some of the popera stars can really believe about themselves those things they say which seem more than 'off' to the classical crowd.

This same promo sensibility is now also used for classical.

You get similar from the classical composers and performers now, too, (who have agents who are within the 'current fashion of hype and advise their clients on how to handle themselves) who are running the same game in interviews, ala that by Jennifer Higdon (her own 'agent' more than likely), the only real difference is in the jargon bandied about.

Years ago, one would see a flyer, or advert in the paper, 
*"Piano Recital. All Schubert. Alfred Brendel; Piano (or pianist.)"*

Currently, that becomes, 
*"Piano Recital. All Schubert. Alfred Brendel, world renowned fantabulous Schubert authority and interpreter blah blah blah; Piano (or pianist.)"*

Younger generation consumers take the latter as 'normal,' -- as they should, because that is 'what is' in their own time.

Some who are older and recall the 'older way' are saddened by the ballooning of promo hyperbole around the fine arts, which did not so much use, nor require, such hype in times not so very long ago. That shift began in the late 1960's, 70's.


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## moody

You may be dismayed but probably not surprised that Rieu is number one in Classic FM's top 300 or whatever.


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## Dongiovanni

I don't like it. But answering the question: he is not doing any harm to the classical music. During the ages there have always been performers that live on the popular melodies of the classics. Nothing new here. Some get annoyed by Rieu and the like because nowadays it's hard to avoid seeing or hearing it. Don't get me started on those talent shows of the last years. 

I had never heard of Jenkins before. Every country has these kind of stars. Believe me, I have heard far worse singers butcher the classic arias.


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## DavidA

PetrB said:


> There is beyond a host of popular genre performers whose music I completely refrain from dissing exactly for that reason, the fans of it are genuinely entertained, deeply moved, etc. No reason to dis it because I hear 'Frank' consistently singing a few cents flat on most of those recordings, and that kind of effect has me near running out of the room.
> 
> I don't have to extol the virtues of Frank, either, or be a hypocrite and agree his singing is wonderful, the music great. Just keep the mouth shut and let others have their pleasures.
> 
> To the rest, one cannot even blame the performers when there is a now an expected and in-place publicity 'machine' which has gone over the top in promoting artist X over artist Y - this exactly because those artists and their 'products' -- in the more popular genres -- are so often exactly interchangeable that if there were not a spectacularly inflated hype publicity machine in place, they would not achieve their status in that niche. Many of those performers in the lighter end of classical did not 'come up' through the normal channels, missed the usual influences which would have taught, and demanded of them, a very different decorum as to how they present themselves. That is part of the reason some of the popera stars can really believe about themselves those things they say which seem more than 'off' to the classical crowd.
> 
> This same promo sensibility is now also used for classical.
> 
> You get similar from the classical composers and performers now, too, (who have agents who are within the 'current fashion of hype and advise their clients on how to handle themselves) who are running the same game in interviews, ala that by Jennifer Higdon (her own 'agent' more than likely), the only real difference is in the jargon bandied about.
> 
> Years ago, one would see a flyer, or advert in the paper,
> *"Piano Recital. All Schubert. Alfred Brendel; Piano (or pianist.)"*
> 
> Currently, that becomes,
> *"Piano Recital. All Schubert. Alfred Brendel, world renowned fantabulous Schubert authority and interpreter blah blah blah; Piano (or pianist.)"*
> 
> Younger generation consumers take the latter as 'normal,' -- as they should, because that is 'what is' in their own time.
> 
> Some who are older and recall the 'older way' are saddened by the ballooning of promo hyperbole around the fine arts, which did not so much use, nor require, such hype in times not so very long ago. That shift began in the late 1960's, 70's.


I don't have a problem with a bit of hype for classical performers. If they are fantastic say so! You have to remember that we live in an age where performers tend to be hyped. Hence the schools came to spill over into the classical music department as well. I remember when Decca brought out their Gotterdamerung recording. It was billed as:
'The greatest cast imaginable! A production full of drama! The greatest sonic stage recording yet!'
Must have been good advertising because I still remember it nearly 50 years later.
I have no problem with it as long as the recording lives up to the hype.
Similarly I do not have a problem when Lang Lang brings in the punters playing a Liszt recital with dry ice and flashing lights. After all Mr Liszt would probably have done the same had the technology been available in his day.


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## deggial

I know I said I'd get back on the subject of KJ but the truth is I've been too lazy to look her up...


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## deggial

moody said:


> We'll miss you I'm sure !!


:tiphat:

sorry to disappoint!


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## DavidA

moody said:


> You may be dismayed but probably not surprised that Rieu is number one in Classic FM's top 300 or whatever.


Just to say I noticed that one if Mr Rieu's concerts is to be screened in cinemas throughout the country.

Get your ticket booked, moody, to avoid disappointment!


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## Op.123

Andre Rieu and Richard Clayderman. Urgh


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## moody

DavidA said:


> Just to say I noticed that one if Mr Rieu's concerts is to be screened in cinemas throughout the country.
> 
> Get your ticket booked, moody, to avoid disappointment!


Don't worry I'll be there with my popcorn have no doubt of that !


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## Op.123

Oh, I forgot to mention Lang Lang... Yuck!!


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## EddieRUKiddingVarese

Burroughs said:


> Andre Rieu and Richard Clayderman. Urgh


As a duet perhaps?


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## Sid James

Funny how this thread has come up, years after I created it. I actually got more time for Rieu than I did then, I like most of his arrangements and I like to listen to him occasionally for relaxation. I also read his biography and that's made me understand him more too. He worked for 20 years as a 'serious' classical musician, playing in symphony orchestras in the Netherlands. He was raised in a musical family (his father being a conductor of note there). People like Yehudi Menuhin and Franz Bruggen where guests at the Rieu household when they played or appeared as guests with the orchestras his father was conducting.

Rieu segued into the light classical realm gradually, starting his quintet in the late 1970's and eventually he established his own orchestra. It started off as part time, only doing special events (like for television or charity) but eventually in 1990 he took a few financial risks (eg. gave up his day job as an orchestral player) and went into it full time. The early years where difficult and not as lucrative as its been for him in the last 15 years or so.

I can understand that he's controversial, and I can understand people saying he's schmaltz. But Rieu's view was that though he loves serious classical music (in the book, he mentions how he enjoyed playing Bartok's string quartets as a student, he loved the challenges the music presented both as a player and as a listener) he felt kind of strangled by the conventions of formal classical concerts. They where becoming monotonous and no fun for him. He basically wanted to make a format which let people have a different experience to 'straight' or 'highbrow' classical concerts, a format with a human face so to speak. So he likes to talk to the audience, say a few (most often corny) jokes, and do a bit of spectacle and pizzazz in the whole thing. The borderline between music, art, entertainment is quite vague and maybe nonexistent with Rieu.

But whatever people think, he's committed to his music just as any other person. One thing is his shows go on for longer than standard concerts, he said he wants to give people real value for their money. If you get a cd of his live concerts, they go to 2 cd's length. He has guests but he integrates them into the show, they're not openers and fillers like some entertainers tend to do so they can be on the stage less.

He's also been involved in charities right from the early years. He comes across as a generous man, and whenever there's been a natural disaster, he's done a concert or composed a song on a cd. & though he doesn't say it, I'd guess he gives part of the royalties from that song to raise money for the victims and survivors of these disasters.

But the biggest miracle is how this man can keep his long hair from getting knotted up in his bow and violin. This is when he's swaying with the music, conducting his orchestra, dancers all round. Now that is his biggest secret - maintaining a perfect hairdo! Forget the art of arranging, bowing technique or choreographing everything from dancers to horses to whatever...the miracle is that this man NEVER has a bad hair day! :lol:


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## jgraif

*perhaps some clarification...?*



handlebar said:


> While I don't like what Rieu stands for and promotes, I also have nothing against the fellow. He does produce a product that some want and makes a lot of money doing it. Pure capitalism,which I espouse.
> I consider him like the Liberace of classical. Like same, he plays snippets and parts in order to appease the "musical" part of his audience.
> 
> Just not my thing.
> 
> Jim


hi jim:

exactly what does rieu "stand for" and "promote"? how can you not like that but have nothing against him? the "liberace" of classical? please explain what that means. liberace was classically trained and then lambasted for pursuing a so-called "pop" career. his talent and charisma brought art music to a larger audience, just like mario lanza, who was lambasted for NOT having the proper classical training (even though he did). lanza, like liberace, brought art music to a wider audience. the only thing of which rieu is guilty is doing the exact same thing. he is possessed of the proper training and a wonderful technique. he doesn't just play "snippets". ok...my opinion. please explain how you would expand the world of art music to a wider audience.


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## jgraif

*thank you!*

hello sid:

thank you for all of the quality information about maestro rieu. i am a trained, professional musician (church organist and choir director) and i fail to understand why the maestro's continuing effort to bring great, art music to a wider audience is disrespected. the "know-it-alls" have no right to keep that world to themselves. they lambasted and derided mario lanza for the same, selfish reasons...and the organ world did the same to virgil fox.

like it or not, rieu is an accomplished violinist and conductor. he has brought many, talented young artists to the attention of audiences around the world, while exposing them to and entertaining them with so many art music treasures. bravo, maestro!

best,
joe


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## TxllxT

jgraif said:


> hello sid:
> 
> thank you for all of the quality information about maestro rieu. i am a trained, professional musician (church organist and choir director) and i fail to understand why the maestro's continuing effort to bring great, art music to a wider audience is disrespected. the "know-it-alls" have no right to keep that world to themselves. they lambasted and derided mario lanza for the same, selfish reasons...and the organ world did the same to virgil fox.
> 
> like it or not, rieu is an accomplished violinist and conductor. he has brought many, talented young artists to the attention of audiences around the world, while exposing them to and entertaining them with so many art music treasures. bravo, maestro!
> 
> best,
> joe







Welcome on TC and Merry Christmas + nice zero posts


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## Judith

Just not my cup of tea but maybe good at what he does. Don't like that grin he has though!!


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## starthrower

About as good as Esteban is too flamenco guitar.


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## Jos

Agreed with Judith, not completely my cup either , but it could be a fun night out. Locking arms and waltzing the night away at Maastricht Vrijthof.


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## EddieRUKiddingVarese

But its a slippery pole first Andre then some old Andy Williams records then your senile...........


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## Klassik

Tristan said:


> Well, I enjoyed his arrangement of "O Fortuna"





Burroughs said:


> Andre Rieu and Richard Clayderman. Urgh





EddieRUKiddingVarese said:


> As a duet perhaps?


Wait a minute, Rieu did the music of Orff? Aye.  I think I'd like the Rieu-Clayderman duet over that abomination!

Anyway, I'm not a fan of Rieu's shows and performance style. Having said that, I do like his responses that he usually gives when people accuse him of not being true to classical music. Rieu brings up how happy the music of Mozart made people in Mozart's time. He also frequently mentions his own sex life and Mozart's sex life as a justification for his jovial performance style. In that regard, Rieu might be more historically informed than any traditional conductor and orchestra! :lol: Of course, I've heard John Eliot Gardiner mention how much enjoys sex as well and he's also honest about some of the behaviors of the great composers. I also most certainly prefer Gardiner's performance style. Given that, John Eliot Gardiner > Andre Rieu.


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## Jos

EddieRUKiddingVarese said:


> its a slippery pole


Hmmm, for those I had an entirely different repertoire in mind....


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## EddieRUKiddingVarese

Pole dancing at an Andre show, its all possible- which classical piece would he murder for this


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## EddieRUKiddingVarese

A Polish Polka perhaps


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## Orpheus

Klassik said:


> Of course, *I've heard John Eliot Gardiner mention how much enjoys sex as well* and he's also honest about some of the behaviors of the great composers. I also most certainly prefer Gardiner's performance style. Given that, John Eliot Gardiner > Andre Rieu.


This rings true: According to a good friend of mine who used to play under him, "Jiggy" enjoys playing on his organ so much that he was once caught by a group of his musicians enthusiastically performing a very personal piece solo after rehearsal, which had seemingly excited him so much that he couldn't wait to get home to perform it in duet with his spouse. Then they... but, no, I've probably said more than enough already. That will do.

Regarding Andre Riu, he seems to be aiming to return orchestral music to its origins as rather light-hearted popular entertainment for the masses, or at least the better-heeled, urban part of the masses. I'm not so sure this is a bad thing, given the standard of much mainstream popular music these days; at least what he is performing is recognizably _music_ and is likely to be enjoyed by many who are not ready for more demanding material, would not be able to tolerate sitting tight-lipped for hours in a concert hall, etc - so it is not likely to lose the more serious part of the classical world many listeners, and might very reasonably be expected to gain it some, once they have realized that classical music can be enjoyable to them, which may kick-start them into exploring further.


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## Klassik

Orpheus said:


> This rings true: According to a good friend of mine who used to play under him, "Jiggy" enjoys playing on his organ so much that he was once caught by a group of his musicians enthusiastically performing a very personal piece solo after rehearsal, which had seemingly excited him so much that he couldn't wait to get home to perform it in duet with his spouse. Then they... but, no, I've probably said more than enough already. That will do.


That story most certainly sounds like "a slippery pole!"


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## Potiphera

I'll give Andre Rui, 0 out of 10. 

I really dislike him I'm afraid, he seems too artificial and showy.


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## Jos

Orpheus said:


> ...... to perform it in duet with his spouse. Then they... but, no, I've probably said more than enough already. That will do.
> 
> .


Oh, come on Orpheus, spill tha beanz. Forum regulation is much more relaxed these days. :devil:


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