# Which classical/western musical instruments produce microtones?



## Denerah Bathory

Basically, I'm approaching this world from a pianists point of view, so naturally I'm not familiar with Microtonal music and Quarter tones which I was never able to test for myself.

Which instruments in a common orchestra can possibly produce microtones, especially Quarter Tones?

Also, are there any Scoring/Notation softwares that allow me to hear these tones? I currently have Musescore and Sibelius (with Noteperformer) and I've tried using the appropriate accidentals but they don't sound any different than the equal tempered 12 tone pitch (A slightly flat still sounds like A natural).

This is something I'm curious about, but may or may not explore depending on capability to actually just try it out. As I said, I am trained on the piano.


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## mbhaub

Every orchestral instrument can play microtones: it's just a matter of bending the pitch up or down a small amount. It takes a great ear to pull it off. But to play a quarter tone high or low, no problem. Happens all the time in amateur orchestras, intentional or not. 

Finale software can do microtones; it's a chore, but you do have total control over every pitch if you want it. There are YouTube videos that explain the process. I've never done it; I have an out-of-tune upright grand that plays out of tune enough!


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## pianozach

True. _Most_ orchestral instruments _can_ play microtones. There are obvious exceptions, of course. Tuned percussion, like vibraphones, xylophones. Pianos _can_, but they have to be detuned. Same with harps.


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## mbhaub

I played a percussion ensemble gig several years ago where the composer called for quarter tuning on both a glockenspiel and vibes. How was it done? The frequency a bar vibrates at is a function of its mass; change the mass and voila! the pitch changes.Using a file to remove metal was out of the question, but what he did was to add mass here and there using small pieces of lead attached to the keys with silicone cement. Did it work? Sort of. The music was utterly atonal and devoid of melody that no one could tell or care. The added material definitely changed the timbre. There was one part where where oscillating chords had the C go back and forth between C and a quarter tone lower. So the player had to use the right hand with the mallet while the left hand added the extra mass and removed it over and over. Pointless and ineffective but that's what the "composer" wanted.


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## fluteman

Denerah Bathory said:


> Basically, I'm approaching this world from a pianists point of view, so naturally I'm not familiar with Microtonal music and Quarter tones which I was never able to test for myself.
> 
> Which instruments in a common orchestra can possibly produce microtones, especially Quarter Tones?
> 
> Also, are there any Scoring/Notation softwares that allow me to hear these tones? I currently have Musescore and Sibelius (with Noteperformer) and I've tried using the appropriate accidentals but they don't sound any different than the equal tempered 12 tone pitch (A slightly flat still sounds like A natural).
> 
> This is something I'm curious about, but may or may not explore depending on capability to actually just try it out. As I said, I am trained on the piano.


I agree with the comments here regarding orchestral instruments generally. Flute music involving quarter tones in particular has become so prevalent that a well-known maker has designed a flute that can produce all the conventional notes of the chromatic scale in the conventional way but also is designed to easily produce all of the quarter tones. If you are interested, her name is Eva Kingma, and there is much information about her flutes online, on her own website and elsewhere.


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## Denerah Bathory

pianozach said:


> True. _Most_ orchestral instruments _can_ play microtones. There are obvious exceptions, of course. Tuned percussion, like vibraphones, xylophones. Pianos _can_, but they have to be detuned. Same with harps.


Thanks, and in context of another comment here, I'll specify that I'll stick to instruments that can play microtones without physical alteration of the instrument (some would call it disfigurement). In other words, string instruments are a perfect example since it's simply a matter of very precise positioning of the finger upon the neck, or even slight scordatura. I wouldn't want to alter the instrument too much in case I need equal temperament later in the piece.


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## Denerah Bathory

mbhaub said:


> I played a percussion ensemble gig several years ago where the composer called for quarter tuning on both a glockenspiel and vibes. How was it done? The frequency a bar vibrates at is a function of its mass; change the mass and voila! the pitch changes.Using a file to remove metal was out of the question, but what he did was to add mass here and there using small pieces of lead attached to the keys with silicone cement. Did it work? Sort of. The music was utterly atonal and devoid of melody that no one could tell or care. The added material definitely changed the timbre. There was one part where where oscillating chords had the C go back and forth between C and a quarter tone lower. So the player had to use the right hand with the mallet while the left hand added the extra mass and removed it over and over. Pointless and ineffective but that's what the "composer" wanted.


Sounds like the usual pretentiousness we often observe with the "avant-garde" types nowadays. In other words, useless complexity rather than displaying a complex structure evolving logically and naturally out of a genuine need to adequately-express an emotion, atmosphere, or musical structure (rhythm, articulation, dynamics, etc.)

I often find that music is no longer about strict music technique per se, whether anybody other the composer actually notices. Here is an example of "justified" complexity: Our highly-detailed notation system evolved across centuries in order to properly-express how a piece ought to be performed to someone who may never benefit from the composer's mentorship, and certainly not with any recorded samples to guide them. We may think also of complex time signatures being developed to avoid the need to always explain a certain syncopation or shifting emphasis in phrases.

The problem today is that instead of using a convenient and appropriate time signature such as 7/8 or even just 3/4 composers will make every bar change note values and add accents to further "complicate" something that could've easily been notated in a single time-signature without accents, triplets, or any other convoluted means. Or add endless accidentals when a key signature would've made sight-reading and general comprehension obvious.

Notation is a necessary aspect to music, so it should be efficient and clear in its communication.


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## Denerah Bathory

mbhaub said:


> I played a percussion ensemble gig several years ago where the composer called for quarter tuning on both a glockenspiel and vibes. How was it done? The frequency a bar vibrates at is a function of its mass; change the mass and voila! the pitch changes.Using a file to remove metal was out of the question, but what he did was to add mass here and there using small pieces of lead attached to the keys with silicone cement. Did it work? Sort of. The music was utterly atonal and devoid of melody that no one could tell or care. The added material definitely changed the timbre. There was one part where where oscillating chords had the C go back and forth between C and a quarter tone lower. So the player had to use the right hand with the mallet while the left hand added the extra mass and removed it over and over. Pointless and ineffective but that's what the "composer" wanted.


Oh and another example I feel is inching near "unnecessary" or convoluted: Carl Orff's strange "time values" in Carmina Burana! I understand he wanted to honor early music traditions, but listening to O Fortuna one clearly realizes it could've been notated in 3/2 or even 6/4 and just specify a metronome marking for the denominator. While this notation was not "archaic", and no matter that the piece is Medieval music, a performer in the mid-20th century would've preferred it rendered in a way they could immediately comprehend. Composers ought to consider the performer unless they're writing solo works they will play themselves.


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## bagpipers

Obviously strings can play micro-tones and trombones too of coarse.

How would a clarinet or oboe do that ,what is meant by most instruments


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## Denerah Bathory

bagpipers said:


> Obviously strings can play micro-tones and trombones too of coarse.
> 
> How would a clarinet or oboe do that ,what is meant by most instruments


I assume woodwinds or Reed instruments do this by breath and embouchure to control the Reed Vibration. This is from reading orchestration books, maybe there are wind players following this thread who can elaborate.


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## fluteman

Denerah Bathory said:


> Thanks, and in context of another comment here, I'll specify that I'll stick to instruments that can play microtones without physical alteration of the instrument (some would call it disfigurement). In other words, string instruments are a perfect example since it's simply a matter of very precise positioning of the finger upon the neck, or even slight scordatura. I wouldn't want to alter the instrument too much in case I need equal temperament later in the piece.


In the case of the flute, I'd hardly call it "disfigurement". Rather, it is merely an extension of the principle used in modern flute since 1847, with just a handful of additional mechanisms. The principle involves the exploitation of harmonics to produce more notes without cutting more holes in the tube. You wouldn't notice the difference if you saw one unless you knew what to look for. Ms. Kingma's work, which began with alto and bass flutes that needed additional mechanisms to make them more ergonomic, has been a hit with contemporary music players.


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## mikeh375

This is a good read. It includes a guitar with microtonal frets that can be installed as needed.

Instruments that play between the notes


Even fixed tunings can be subverted with some lateral thinking....


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## pianozach

fluteman said:


> In the case of the flute, I'd hardly call it "disfigurement". Rather, it is merely an extension of the principle used in modern flute since 1847, with just a handful of additional mechanisms. The principle involves the exploitation of harmonics to produce more notes without cutting more holes in the tube. You wouldn't notice the difference if you saw one unless you knew what to look for. Ms. Kingma's work, which began with alto and bass flutes that needed additional mechanisms to make them more ergonomic, has been a hit with contemporary music players.


For an example of a flute using microtones, one has to look no further than the open hole flute used in CALIFORNIA DREAMIN'. Yeah, the flutist is bending the notes effectively for a bluesy sound, but it exemplifies the potential for reaching "inbetween" notes. 

Clarinets too - find any good Klezmer music, or Benny Goodman playing RHAPSODY IN BLUE.


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## bagpipers

I know clever learned people can get in between notes on some woodwinds just as some soprano's can go above high C
But in the composers chair you have work with universals not knowing who is always in many cases going to perform you.
Unless your commissioned by someone specific who asks for something different.


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## Nate Miller

my roommate back in college did his masters work on microtonal music. Harry Partch is a composer that you should read about. You probably need to make your own instruments to do it right. Modern retail instruments have equal temperment built into them.


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## fluteman

pianozach said:


> For an example of a flute using microtones, one has to look no further than the open hole flute used in CALIFORNIA DREAMIN'. Yeah, the flutist is bending the notes effectively for a bluesy sound, but it exemplifies the potential for reaching "inbetween" notes.
> 
> Clarinets too - find any good Klezmer music, or Benny Goodman playing RHAPSODY IN BLUE.


That famous solo in California Dreamin' is played on an alto flute in G, which has long been very popular in studio work. A big reason for that is that the lower pitched the flute, the easier it is to bend pitches. It is tougher to get a powerful, intense tone out of an alto and especially a bass flute, but in the studio with a microphone close by, that is less important. There is now something called a glissando head joint, which, when used with a conventional flute in C, makes bending pitches routine. But all of that is for somewhat different purposes than an instrument designed to play quarter tone scales or to play them more easily.


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## Enthalpy

On bowed instruments it's routine. Obtain it from every professional. From amateurs too, just less accurate.

Microtonals are unequally easy on woodwinds. It depends much on the toneholes' width, possibly on the bore shape. Musicians do it by fingerings or by the embouchure.

Easy on a recorder.
Difficult on a flute! The Boehm instrument needs the strong resonance by wide toneholes but messy fingerings botch it. The embouchure doesn't twist the pitch so much neither, and rather downwards, not too loud, preferibly at throat notes. Professional flutists are excellent, plus the open keys help, but I would refrain from writing that.
Feasible on the clarinet, especially at all notes emitted by a bare tonehole. The musician opens it more or less. Even glissando is reasonable over this range.
Rather easy on the saxophone. Not by the keys but over the embouchure. Downwards it much easier.
Very easy on the bassoon, upwards and also downwards, both over the embouchure or with altered fingerings or both. Partial opening of bare toneholes is feasible too.
Said to be easy on the oboe, I have no experience.


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## Denerah Bathory

Thanks everyone for your insights. Very much appreciated.


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## LKB

I played the oboe from 1977 until 1996, when a medical situation forced me to give it up ( Since l was also a professional operatic baritone as well, l didn't miss it all that much at the time ).

The oboe is actually very well suited to a number of unusual demands, with microtones merely serving as a starting point.

By the time l was obligated to give the oboe up, l was able to easily play harmonics, and double- harmonics at the fourth. Chords were possible as well, though l can't say they were especially tuneful or enjoyable to play.

An old book taught me, and I've recommended it for decades:









Oboe (Yehudi Menuhin Music Guides): Goossens, Leon, Roxburgh, Edwin: 9781871082432: Amazon.com: Books


Oboe (Yehudi Menuhin Music Guides) [Goossens, Leon, Roxburgh, Edwin] on Amazon.com. *FREE* shipping on qualifying offers. Oboe (Yehudi Menuhin Music Guides)



www.amazon.com





Cheers!


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