# Beethoven Symph.#6 with female voice



## JChang (Feb 22, 2008)

Hi there,
A while ago I heard in a coffee shop a beautiful rendition of the last movement of Beethoven's 6th symphony. As far as I can tell, it was played by an orchestra, but the main melody was sung by a female singer instead of played by instruments. It was such a brief moment and I don't have any other clues. But it has stuck in my head ever since. Can anyone tell me what recording this might have been? Thanks for your help.


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## Gustav (Aug 29, 2005)

dunno, that's a tough one, because i don't think any person(serious musicians) who has even the slightest respect for Beethoven would do something so horrible as to "rewrite" or "rearrange" Beethoven's music.


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## JChang (Feb 22, 2008)

I don't necessarily agree with you on this, Gustav. For example, Dmitri Mitropoulos and Leonard Bernstein, definitely serious musicians, were in favor of "rearranging" Beethoven's C# minor string quartet but I don't think they were disrespectful to Beethoven. Schubert's "Death and Maiden" rearranged by Mahler (your hero yes?) also comes to mind. 

But I can understand the purist sentiment. In fact, the Vienna Phil members were against the idea of playing the C# minor quartet when Bernstein initially proposed it (they eventually liked it, hence that awesome recording). 
Anyways, I appreciate your thought, and meanwhile I will keep looking.


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## Morigan (Oct 16, 2006)

Gustav said:


> dunno, that's a tough one, because i don't think any person(serious musicians) who has even the slightest respect for Beethoven would do something so horrible as to "rewrite" or "rearrange" Beethoven's music.


I don't know, Liszt?


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## opus67 (Jan 30, 2007)

Beethoven himself rearranged his second symphony for a piano trio.

JChang, I'm sorry that I can't offer an answer to your question, but I'd be interested in listening to the version you mentioned.


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## David C Coleman (Nov 23, 2007)

Gustav said:


> dunno, that's a tough one, because i don't think any person(serious musicians) who has even the slightest respect for Beethoven would do something so horrible as to "rewrite" or "rearrange" Beethoven's music.


I agree with you Gustav. I heard a performance of Beethoven's 9th conducted by Kurt Masur at the London Proms concerts about 3 years sgo. And he augmented the choir parts with a boys choir !! arghhhh..It sounded terrible!!! I hate so called "serious" musicians who mess about with near perection!!!...


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## Gustav (Aug 29, 2005)

JChang said:


> I don't necessarily agree with you on this, Gustav. For example, Dmitri Mitropoulos and Leonard Bernstein, definitely serious musicians, were in favor of "rearranging" Beethoven's C# minor string quartet but I don't think they were disrespectful to Beethoven.


If they did that, maybe they had some reasoning as to why they did it. Maybe they wanted to fit it in a performance, or just curious at what it would sound like with a full orchestra. Nevertheless, it's a travesty that they did that, since Beethoven knew what he was doing, and if he wrote for "a string quartet", then it's nobody's business to change that.



JChang said:


> Schubert's "Death and Maiden" rearranged by Mahler (your hero yes?) also comes to mind.


he is not my "hero", whatever you meant by that. I am not some teenager who goes about worshiping the great composers, i merely listen to their music and draw pleasure from it. In fact, i don't even have a "favorite" composer, all i might have an urge for Beethoven this week, or Mozart the next, but never am i fixed on one composer, and actually "worship" him/her. Mahler did alot of "crazy" things, he re-orchestrated Beethoven's 9th, and Schumann's symphonies too, but that was because he was a composer and conductor He sometimes knew musical insights better than the composer did. Mind you, even the great composers make mistakes, in Beethoven's case, he is imagining the music in his head (he was deaf!), and subsequently he might've made some mistakes here and there. But, a good conductor can see it and correct it, and bring about a nice performance without any problem. In Schumann's case, his orchestration has always been criticized as being "too heavy" "clumsy", Mahler basically went back and changed A LOT of the orchestration of his symphonies, but it also changed the character of the works somewhat, so i am not so sure about Mahler on that one. A better example, would be Szell, he "Changed" stuff when he recorded Schumann's 4 symphonies (one of my all time fav recordings btw, if you don't have it, get it), but he was trying to make Schumann sound as smooth as it can be, so it was all well intended, and moreover, he preserved the original character of the works well, unlike the Mahler re-orchestrations.



JChang said:


> But I can understand the purist sentiment. In fact, the Vienna Phil members were against the idea of playing the C# minor quartet when Bernstein initially proposed it (they eventually liked it, hence that awesome recording).


Well, good music sound good no matter how you play it But, there is more going on in a piece of music than just playing the notes. htere is also this thing called "tradition". The Wiener Philharmoniker is all about "tradition", and me too. So, in my opinion, no one should or have the authority to change anything the master wrote.


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## JChang (Feb 22, 2008)

This discussion about music arrangements aside, the search for this mysterious recording has become an interesting little project of mine. I mean, isn't it curious? Beethoven obviously didn't write any lyrics to the Sixth Symphony. What words was she singing then? Presumably someone went to the trouble of writing matching lyrics to the symphony and a singer and an entire orchestra were recruited to record the song. That's quite an investment and it can't be some half-baked effort.
The closest thing I 've found so far is this webpage that claims that Jessye Norman (famous soprano singer) recorded the Pastroal symphony with Deutsche Grammophone in 1981. (http://www.answers.com/topic/jessye-norman?cat=entertainment ; See 'Selective discography' section) I was initially excited about this finding but have come to the conclusion that this must be a mistake of this webpage. She was actually a soloist in the Ninth Symphony conducted by Karl Bohm, and I think the Sixth Symphony was just the coupling in that record. The search continues...


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## Rondo (Jul 11, 2007)

opus67 said:


> Beethoven himself rearranged his second symphony for a piano trio.
> 
> JChang, I'm sorry that I can't offer an answer to your question, but I'd be interested in listening to the version you mentioned.


I also seem to recall that he recycled a theme used in his Third symphony for a piano quintet in E flat (opus--), as well as _Creatures of Prometheus_...?? Im not sure which came first, though.


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## opus67 (Jan 30, 2007)

Rondo said:


> I also seem to recall that he recycled a theme used in his Third symphony for a piano quintet in E flat (opus--), as well as _Creatures of Prometheus_...?? Im not sure which came first, though.


I'm not sure about the quintet, but he did use the theme from the last movement in the '_Creatures_...', one of his contradances, and of course the _Eroica_ Variations (duh!).
In fact, the first two of these preceded the symphony. So, to be accurate, he used the themes from these works in the _Eroica_.


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## Gustav (Aug 29, 2005)

opus67 said:


> I'm not sure about the quintet, but he did use the theme from the last movement in the '_Creatures_...', one of his contradances, and of course the _Eroica_ Variations (duh!).
> In fact, the first two of these preceded the symphony. So, to be accurate, he used the themes from these works in the _Eroica_.


So? Beethoven and a lot of other great composers did that, but that's irrelevant of what i am talking about here. When Beethoven does it, it's okay, because it's HIS work. But, when somone else does it (without the permission of the composer), then it is NOT Okay. No matter what context it is in.


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## JChang (Feb 22, 2008)

Gustav said:


> No matter what context it is in.


I wouldn't go so far... many great composers (including Beethoven himself, Mozart, Brahms etc.) wrote Variations by borrowing a melody (theme) from others.

Also, if you are a composition student, sometimes you may be encouraged to arrange great composers' work into another format so you better appreciate their musical languages and techniques. It's a very useful exercise and there is nothing disrespectful about it (quite the contrary). Whether or not you DARE to play that homework of yours in front of public audiences is a different story.


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## joen_cph (Jan 17, 2010)

This thread keeps coming up in the searches & I remember doing some Googling in order to solve the "mystery" of the recording, not finding anything though. Unless something else is proven, perhaps the music spoken of here was actually the 3rd Symphony by Vaughan-Williams, also called "Pastoral Symphony", which briefly has a soprano singing without words in the finale ...


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

Sarah Brightnan did a vocal version of a key melody of Beethoven's 7th, but not the 6th AFAIK.


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