# Singing actors or acting singers?



## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

I've just rewatched "la Traviata a Paris" and it got me thinking about the balance between singing and acting in opera. In the interview, Eteri Gvazava said that she knew that Verdi would not have chosen her for the role because she does not have the three different voices necessary for each act, but that she preferred to think of herself as a singing actress rather than an acting singer. José Cura spoke of his admiration at the way she grew into the role and completely transformed herself into Violetta, and it is true, she really was Violetta in a way that no other soprano I've seen has been (it probably helps that I'd never seen her before in any other role). Cura as well really inhabits his roles, I know many people criticize his singing but I love the way he seems to have thought about the meaning of every word he sings and of the moment he is in and acts accordingly. Here he is with wonderful Waltraud Meier in Cav:






That's my objection to Pavarotti and more recent "stand and deliver" singers like Johan Botha - as far as I am concerned they might as well be giving a concert for all the involvement they have with the action.

I also like productions with well-thought-out Personenregie - I don't care if it's on an empty stage (e.g. the Met's Eugene Onegin) as long as the singers are relating to the plot (however silly) and each other. So I'm willing to put up with a version with not-quite perfect singing if the acting is excellent.

What do you guys think? Do you have any favourite "singing actors"? Or any productions that you love even though the singing isn't perfect? Or is it all about the singing for you?


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## Sieglinde (Oct 25, 2009)

Well, sometimes they work. Peter Klaveness has nearly no voice (and definitely not a basso profondo) but he was a terrific Hagen in the Copenhagen Ring. There, the way they built the character worked out perfectly, but he wouldn't be good in a more traditional production where Hagen just stands, sings beautifully and looks evil.


I loved Eteri! She was such a cute, fragile Violetta.


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

mamascarlatti said:


> I've just rewatched "la Traviata a Paris" and it got me thinking about the balance between singing and acting in opera. In the interview, Eteri Gvazava said that she knew that Verdi would not have chosen her for the role because she does not have the three different voices necessary for each act, but that she preferred to think of herself as a singing actress rather than an acting singer.
> 
> .....
> 
> What do you guys think? Do you have any favourite "singing actors"? Or any productions that you love even though the singing isn't perfect? Or is it all about the singing for you?


I don't even need to comment because you already know how it is for me, Nat.
I loved this production in great part because of the eye candy factor: Eteri Gvazava!
Yes, the singing wasn't top notch.
What I'm a lot less willing to put up with is when there is no singing *and* no eye candy.


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## rgz (Mar 6, 2010)

My thoughts should be pretty well-known to all as well. I'll be the first to say that Natalie Dessay doesn't now have a world class voice -- if she ever did. It's her acting (which extends into the vocal interpretation, not just the acting _cum_ acting portion) that appeals to me. That's not to say I don't appreciate the Sutherlands and Pavarottis ... I'll just never have the passion for their performances that I do for the singers who completely inhabit the role.


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## sospiro (Apr 3, 2010)

I much prefer a good actor. There are baritones who can sing better than Simon Keenlyside but I don't think anyone can act as good as he does.


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## jhar26 (Jul 6, 2008)

It's hard for me to answer Natalie's question one way or the other. As far as someone as Pavarotti is concerned, well, I definitely enjoy him more on cd than dvd. But having said that, most of us probably love different singers (or even artists in general) for different reasons.


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## TxllxT (Mar 2, 2011)

I remember seeing Rusalka in the National Theatre of Prague. Urbanova was singing from a hole in the floor with only her head seen like the tip of an iceberg. Funny & distracting. It looked just like the floor had collapsed under her weight. Dvorak's Rusalka should be quite young & slim, more like Renée Fleming, whose voice shines like a young voice. Basically I prefer CDs over DVDs because of the repeated listening, crtitical listening to details, focusing on instruments etc. I hear and 'see' the soundstage as it comes to life from the speakers. The addition of a colourful flatscreen, well, why would one need that? When I want to literally *see* a gorgeous Carmen I prefer a movie-version (with playbacking).


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## MAuer (Feb 6, 2011)

This is kind of a tough one to answer, as I'm usually drawn to singers -- at least initially -- by the quality of their voices. If an individual's voice is hard on the ears, he or she can act up a storm and I still don't think I'll enjoy the performance very much. On the other hand, I'm not terribly fond of the "stand and deliver" school of singing, either.


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

sospiro said:


> I much prefer a good actor. There are baritones who can sing better than Simon Keenlyside but I don't think anyone can act as good as he does.


I love Simon's flying leap onto the bed in that clip.


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

rgz said:


> My thoughts should be pretty well-known to all as well. I'll be the first to say that Natalie Dessay doesn't now have a world class voice -- if she ever did. It's her acting (which extends into the vocal interpretation, not just the acting _cum_ acting portion) that appeals to me. That's not to say I don't appreciate the Sutherlands and Pavarottis ... I'll just never have the passion for their performances that I do for the singers who completely inhabit the role.


I was thinking also of Natalie Dessay when I wrote that above - I do like her voice, and it is certainly unique, but she would be the first to admit that singing is hard work for her. And of course she started off as an actress so she is properly trained.


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

Almaviva said:


> I don't even need to comment because you already know how it is for me, Nat.
> I loved this production in great part because of the eye candy factor: Eteri Gvazava!
> Yes, the singing wasn't top notch.
> What I'm a lot less willing to put up with is when there is no singing *and* no eye candy.


Yes, but you can get eye-candy that can't act . As Sieglinde says Eteri was wonderfully delicate and young, with a mobile face and those haunting eyes. I was crying like a baby in the last scene.

Admittedly it didn't harm the production to feature secksay beast Cura and handsome distinguished Nicolas Rivenq, he he


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

MAuer said:


> This is kind of a tough one to answer, as I'm usually drawn to singers -- at least initially -- by the quality of their voices. If an individual's voice is hard on the ears, he or she can act up a storm and I still don't think I'll enjoy the performance very much. On the other hand, I'm not terribly fond of the "stand and deliver" school of singing, either.


Well, I'd agree with first being drawn to singer by their voice - El Guapo is a case in point. But I wouldn't be such a fan if I didn't admire his amazing portrayals of Don Jose, Lohengrin and Werther, and what I've seen so far of his Caravadossi. He brings out essential qualities of each character - for example Lohengrin hoping for a brief chance of normal human love and domesticity before he has to go back to his regimented existence.


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

Sieglinde said:


> Well, sometimes they work. Peter Klaveness has nearly no voice (and definitely not a basso profondo) but he was a terrific Hagen in the Copenhagen Ring. There, the way they built the character worked out perfectly, but he wouldn't be good in a more traditional production where Hagen just stands, sings beautifully and looks evil.


Funny. I can't even remember his voice, just that he was truly nasty. I'll have to rewatch.


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## sospiro (Apr 3, 2010)

mamascarlatti said:


> Admittedly it didn't harm the production to feature secksay beast Cura


Coincidentally have just been watching said beast in A Passion for Verdi 

Love that black silk shirt


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

sospiro said:


> Coincidentally have just been watching said beast in A Passion for Verdi
> 
> Love that black silk shirt


Oooh, I know what I'm doing tonight. After I've finished Edgar which I have to say is dragging a bit.


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## sospiro (Apr 3, 2010)

mamascarlatti said:


> Oooh, I know what I'm doing tonight. After I've finished Edgar which I have to say is dragging a bit.


What did you think of Marco Vratogna - (Frank)? I thought he was excellent.


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## Sieglinde (Oct 25, 2009)

Bergman's Magic Flute is another good example. Average voices but everyone looks and lives their part wonderfully (only Sarastro gives me some uneasy feelings... couldn't tell why. He doesn't radiate pure goodness, more a complicated struggle with his feelings for Pamina).


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

mamascarlatti said:


> Yes, but you can get eye-candy that can't act . As Sieglinde says Eteri was wonderfully delicate and young, with a mobile face and those haunting eyes. I was crying like a baby in the last scene.
> 
> Admittedly it didn't harm the production to feature secksay beast Cura and handsome distinguished Nicolas Rivenq, he he


Good eye-candy must act. In order to be a true eye-candy, a singer needs to be sexy, convincing, etc. Otherwise it's just a picture of a pretty woman. So when I say eye-candy I mean the whole package, and I'd add, with at least not-too-offensive singing.


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## MAuer (Feb 6, 2011)

A related question to this one -- and perhaps there was a previous thread on the subject -- is how much a singer's appearance should matter in these days of opera in cinemas and the increasing popularity of the DVD format versus CD recordings The reference to Botha made me recall an editorial in the February issue of "_Opera_," which took reviewers/journalists to task for their nasty comments about Mr. Botha's size in his performance as Tannhäuser at the ROH late last year. As usual, my feelings are ambivalent. Part of me would agree that the quality of an individual's voice, the technical skill and artistry with which he or she uses it, and his/her dramatic involvement with a role should outweigh (no pun intended) considerations about his/her physical appearance. I remember feeling outraged at the time of Deborah Voigt's "little black dress" incident at the ROH . . . At the same time, I have to admit that el Guapo's good looks certainly enhance my enjoyment of his performances (concerts included!). My guess is that very obese singers like Botha tend toward the "stand and deliver" approach because of the difficulty a great deal of movement poses for them.


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

MAuer said:


> A related question to this one -- and perhaps there was a previous thread on the subject -- is how much a singer's appearance should matter in these days of opera in cinemas and the increasing popularity of the DVD format versus CD recordings The reference to Botha made me recall an editorial in the February issue of "_Opera_," which took reviewers/journalists to task for their nasty comments about Mr. Botha's size in his performance as Tannhäuser at the ROH late last year. As usual, my feelings are ambivalent. Part of me would agree that the quality of an individual's voice, the technical skill and artistry with which he or she uses it, and his/her dramatic involvement with a role should outweigh (no pun intended) considerations about his/her physical appearance. I remember feeling outraged at the time of Deborah Voigt's "little black dress" incident at the ROH . . . At the same time, I have to admit that el Guapo's good looks certainly enhance my enjoyment of his performances (concerts included!). My guess is that very obese singers like Botha tend toward the "stand and deliver" approach because of the difficulty a great deal of movement poses for them.


If their size stops them doing their job, and that includes acting the part, they are simply too fat. Botha "The Tree" stands on stage and does nothing but sing. But size doesn't necessarily have to stop you, just look at Jessye Norman, she is usually riveting on stage.

As for El Guapo, I didn't really find him all that attractive (honest) until I fell in love with his voice and saw him in a few prodctions. Now I think he's gorgeous.


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## Sieglinde (Oct 25, 2009)

Botha looks horrible. Being big is one thing, but being a sumo fighter is too much, not to mention the health issues.

To a certain point it's ok. Linda Watson or Lisa Gasteen are big too but I prefer them to slim Brünnhildes who have a voice three sizes too small (*cough the late Behrens cough*). Of course, the ideal Brünnhilde would have both the voice and the warrior maiden looks, but that's rare. (Stemme is very close to ideal.)

Also, not all plus size singers do the "search the best acoustic point, stand there and sing" technique. I was surprised for example by Peter Rose - he's HYPERACTIVE! He moved a lot and sang in the most uncomfortable positions, all naturally. And he moved very easily plus he radiated health. (As my mom remarked, it was not too believeable that a thin baritone boy just pwn'd him with one punch. He looks like he'd eat barihunks for breakfast.)


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

My take on this is the non-politically correct one. People sometimes may feel that they shouldn't criticize the poor singers for what ultimately is a disease - obesity - as long as their voices are divine. 
I don't think so. If they don't want this kind of criticism, then they should work in studios and be recording artists or be part of recitals and concerts. If they accept a role live on stage or one that is being recorded for DVD or blu-ray, they must look the part, dammit! The artist in this case is putting his/her body out there as part of the show since opera is musical theater that involves acting, body language, and more or less revealing costumes. Therefore, the artist's body is fair game for criticism. Being a good actor/actress, projecting sex appeal, are all parts of the job description. For the public, a great actor/actress who looks the part or at least does his/her best to look the part, be it by being actually atractive, or by using efficiently the little that he/she got (case in point, Jessye Norman, Natalie Dessay), greatly enhances the enjoyment. Sometimes it becomes quite ridiculous and distracting when an artist is praising the exquisite beauty of the other character while addressing a 300-pound female elephant or a 350-pound male gorilla. Some convincing display of why characters fall in love with each other in opera makes the whole experience more satisfactory. Give me Anna Netrebko in La Traviata with the sexy red dress, excellent acting and gorgeous boobs (although her voice is not so appropriate for the coloratura in terms of agility) any day over the precise voice of Dame Sutherland but with that mostly unfortunate square jaw of hers - I mean, as long as I'm *watching* the performance and not just listening to it.


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## rgz (Mar 6, 2010)

Almaviva said:


> by using efficiently *the little that he/she got* (case in point, Jessye Norman, *Natalie Dessay*)


Them's fightin' words, mister.


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

rgz said:


> Them's fightin' words, mister.


rgz, as strange as it may have sounded, I did mean it as a compliment. Natalie Dessay is not an extremely beautiful woman (although she is not ugly either) but she *can* be very sexy and very attractive, given her outstanding acting ability, colorful personality, and keen intelligence. You know, beauty comes in the genes, but making of what nature gave you something extraordinary does take talent.


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## rgz (Mar 6, 2010)

Well maybe she's no Jessica Alba but to say "the little that she got" isn't really fair. I think she's very pretty, albeit more cute than strictly gorgeous. If Anna is a 9 on a scale of 1-10, I'd rate Natalie as a strong 7, especially in her mid 30s. But maybe I'm biased. 

I guess I can agree if you meant it in the manner of how Scarlett O'Hara was described (in the book, not the movie) -- decently attractive but nothing out of the ordinary ... until she smiled, which lit up the room.


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

Sieglinde said:


> Botha looks horrible. Being big is one thing, but being a sumo fighter is too much, not to mention the health issues.


ha ha found this review of Botha in Tannhäuser from the Daily Mail. Mean but true:



> ....not half as confusing as casting the corpulent South African tenor Johan Botha as the tormented sex-bomb of the title. Botha is an acclaimed heldentenor but has the acting range of a barrage balloon.
> Albery cleverly steers the action around him, rarely allowing this vast figure to waddle more than two or three steps at a time - the Pavarotti glide.


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

rgz said:


> Well maybe she's no Jessica Alba but to say "the little that she got" isn't really fair. I think she's very pretty, albeit more cute than strictly gorgeous. If Anna is a 9 on a scale of 1-10, I'd rate Natalie as a strong 7, especially in her mid 30s. But maybe I'm biased.
> 
> I guess I can agree if you meant it in the manner of how Scarlett O'Hara was described (in the book, not the movie) -- decently attractive but nothing out of the ordinary ... until she smiled, which lit up the room.


IMHO Natalie is a 5 with her mouth shut and not on stage (sincerely, I don't find her pretty, I think she's got a big nose), but is an 8 or 9 on stage thanks to her talent, when she shines, becomes sexy *and* even pretty. That's what I meant.

Sincerely, if Natalie Dessay wasn't this extraordinarily talented opera singer/actress, you wouldn't even turn your head to look at her if you crossed her on the street.

There are plenty of women out there who look just like Natalie and go about their businesses, un-noticed. But there aren't many singers/actresses like Dessay on stage.

And Anna a 9? She's a 10!!!


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

mamascarlatti said:


> ha ha found this review of Botha in Tannhäuser from the Daily Mail. Mean but true:


Pretty funny review. I loved the title!:lol:


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## MAuer (Feb 6, 2011)

mamascarlatti said:


> ha ha found this review of Botha in Tannhäuser from the Daily Mail. Mean but true:


This is the review that really provoked the ire of the "_Opera_" editor.


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

MAuer said:


> This is the review that really provoked the ire of the "_Opera_" editor.


Well it is the Daily Mail. Not known usually for its espousal of high culture, innit.

What did the "Opera" editor specifically get upset about?


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## Sieglinde (Oct 25, 2009)

Actually, I'm not too PC about fat singers either. But I'm naturally slim and never had any problems...

Off: Also, I can't stand "fatty-chans" in my precious frilly Lolita fashion either. They look awful in max-stretched shirred dresses, and knee socks are also very unflattering. And you aren't supposed to call them that cos' Lolis must be PC and cute! But they're instant ITA even in full brand.

And what I'm most allergic of, is FAT, YELLING BEARS playing Grimes. How am I supposed to feel any sorry if Grimes thinks he's a Tristan, looks like a Falstaff and acts like a Boris/Azucena mix (=chews the scenery like there's no tomorrow)?


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

Sieglinde said:


> Actually, I'm not too PC about fat singers either. But *I'm naturally slim *and never had any problems...


Well I'm not, I'm bred to survive Stone Age famines and I can tell you that getting to the size of Mr Botha involves way too much food and not enough exercise. I was on the way there myself when I was younger and it was as simple as that.


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## rgz (Mar 6, 2010)

To extend the original question, it sounds like for many that believability in the role is a factor. But how far does that extend? For example, in the Met / Levine _Die Walkure_, Siegmund and Sieglinde are portrayed by singers of different races, making the brother - sister aspect rather far-fetched. Or what if Cio-Cio San is not portrayed by an Asian singer?
I find I have less of a problem with this than with suspending my disbelief of, say, pre-gastric bypass Deborah Voight as the desirable Ariadne, but I'm afraid I can't quantify the reason why.


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

rgz said:


> To extend the original question, it sounds like for many that believability in the role is a factor. But how far does that extend? For example, in the Met / Levine _Die Walkure_, Siegmund and Sieglinde are portrayed by singers of different races, making the brother - sister aspect rather far-fetched. Or what if Cio-Cio San is not portrayed by an Asian singer?
> I find I have less of a problem with this than with suspending my disbelief of, say, pre-gastric bypass Deborah Voight as the desirable Ariadne, but I'm afraid I can't quantify the reason why.


In the case of Jessye Norman as Seglinde, I think it's the acting, stage presence, and spectacular singing that makes us suspend the disbelief regarding the brother-sister of different races. Some rare artists are so good that we're willing to buy anything that they portray for us. Deborah Voight is no Jessye Norman. If Jessye didn't have her great voice and just parked and barked, then we'd be more annoyed with the casting.


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## MAuer (Feb 6, 2011)

mamascarlatti said:


> Well it is the Daily Mail. Not known usually for its espousal of high culture, innit.
> 
> What did the "Opera" editor specifically get upset about?


In essence, he felt that the remarks about Botha's size were cruel, and that the quality of his voice and interpretation of the role should have been the only matters taken into consideration by reviewers. He singled out as a vast exaggeration the DM's assertion that Botha's appearance in the role had set opera as a credible art form back 40 years.

I've tended to have a negative reaction myself to very obese singers in romantic leading roles (i.e., Sharon Sweet as Turandot) -- and when I do, there is usually a pesky little voice within me that says I must be a pretty shallow individual to have such a reaction. The "_Opera_" editor would no doubt agree with the pesky voice.


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## Sieglinde (Oct 25, 2009)

Well, there IS an obese singer I totally adore. Agnes Nitt. She's awesome and her voice KILLS. 



The only problem is we can't transport her here from Ankh-Morpork...


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