# Charles Mingus - The Black Saint and the Sinner Lady



## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

A favorite of mine from the world of Jazz. It's very lose in a way I really appreciate, and I love the madness it evokes in me. It really reminds me of the struggle of blacks during slave times, something I would like to term "The Black Voice" which is very strong in Jazz overall.

Even though I don't think this was the intended meaning of the composition, especially when you think of the title of the work, that's how I interpret the piece based just on how the music makes me feel.


----------



## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

I don't give a hoot about the message, which could be conveyed more clearly than in this kind of music, but the music is amazing.


----------



## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

I never really got into that one. But I like a lot of other Mingus. Mostly the Atlantic stuff.


----------



## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

Phil loves classical said:


> I don't give a hoot about the message, which could be conveyed more clearly than in this kind of music, but the music is amazing.


All music is expressive and the message that is interpreted is subjective. Do you like Miles fusion period at all?


----------



## Guest (Aug 3, 2018)

The best Mingus is the stuff he did in the 50s leading small combos. That was THE sound of a bass-player leading the band. This later stuff is alright. The 50s stuff is kind of rare but it's worth having if you like jazz.


----------



## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

Victor Redseal said:


> The best Mingus is the stuff he did in the 50s leading small combos. That was THE sound of a bass-player leading the band. This later stuff is alright. The 50s stuff is kind of rare but it's worth having if you like jazz.


I tend to lean towards less traditional jazz like this album and Davis' fusion era.


----------



## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

Mingus isn't traditional jazz. And the Miles Davis Quintet of the mid to late 60s is more challenging music than the fusion stuff.


----------



## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

starthrower said:


> Mingus isn't traditional jazz. And the Miles Davis Quintet of the mid to late 60s is more challenging music than the fusion stuff.


It's not an issue of being challenging or not, it's more an issue of being abstract if I had to put an adjective on it.


----------



## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

Great album, but then again there's not too much by Mingus that I don't like. I really admire the way in which Mingus could accommodate different types of line-up. If pushed to name a favourite album I would probably go for _Mingus Ah Um_ or _Oh Yeah_.


----------



## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

Captainnumber36 said:


> It's not an issue of being challenging or not, it's more an issue of being abstract if I had to put an adjective on it.


I enjoy the fusion stuff up until 1970. After that it's a lot of jamming on vamps which I find interesting only to a point. The musical interplay with the acoustic ensemble of the late 60s is more stimulating to me as a listener.


----------



## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

Captainnumber36 said:


> It's not an issue of being challenging or not, it's more an issue of being abstract if I had to put an adjective on it.


Mingus in the fifties or before wasn't more traditional. Actually some of his most experimental stuff were pieces he composed when he was very young.
For instance:






Anyway I think that Black saint is an amazing album, the orchestration in particular is absolutely incredible, probably his best work for that aspect (and one of the most brilliant orchestrations in all jazz). If I had to criticize it I would say that the last part is not as strong as the first two parts (at least in my opinion). But it's a magnificent album nonetheless.


----------



## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

starthrower said:


> I enjoy the fusion stuff up until 1970. After that it's a lot of jamming on vamps which I find interesting only to a point. The musical interplay with the acoustic ensemble of the late 60s is more stimulating to me as a listener.


Good that you know what you enjoy!


----------



## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

Captainnumber36 said:


> Good that you know what you enjoy!


I've encountered a lot of Rock fans that only listen to electric Miles, and no Mingus at all and I think they're missing out, but that's their loss. I don't know why jazz is so unpopular? But that's the way it is.


----------



## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

starthrower said:


> I've encountered a lot of Rock fans that only listen to electric Miles, and no Mingus at all and I think they're missing out, but that's their loss. I don't know why jazz is so unpopular? But that's the way it is.


There are several reasons; lack of marketing, lack of interest to search for what's not popular, associations with the music being for snobs, being put off by the snobby culture and so on.


----------



## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

starthrower said:


> I've encountered a lot of Rock fans that only listen to electric Miles, and no Mingus at all and I think they're missing out, but that's their loss. I don't know why jazz is so unpopular? But that's the way it is.


Before I started listening to jazz I basically only listened to rock music, and to me the idea of acoustic jazz was that of boring music for old people. So I started listening to electric jazz because in my mind electric instruments meant "progressive music". I realized later how much I was wrong (actually a lot of acoustic jazz is much more daring and complex than jazz rock and fusion).


----------



## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

norman bates said:


> Before I started listening to jazz I basically only listened to rock music, and to me the idea of acoustic jazz was that of boring music for old people. So I started listening to electric jazz because in my mind electric instruments meant "progressive music". I realized later how much I was wrong (actually a lot of acoustic jazz is much more daring and complex than jazz rock and fusion).


Don't look at it as you were wrong, look at it as your definitions and criteria changed over time, and thus your preferences as well changed.


----------



## les24preludes (May 1, 2018)

Amazing album - probably my favourite along with Tijuana Moods. As has been said, it's a wonderful orchestration. I saw Mingus live with his quartet and that was good too, of course. Fables of Faubus with the original lyrics is a must-hear.


----------



## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

Captainnumber36 said:


> Don't look at it as you were wrong, look at it as your definitions and criteria changed over time, and thus your preferences as well changed.


no, I was simply wrong. I still listen to rock, I like jazz rock and fusion and I love electric instruments, but an electric instrument does not make music more sophisticated or complex, that depends on what musician make with melodies, harmonies, rhythms, colors. And most of the most complex, daring and sophisticated jazz is acoustic. Not because acoustic music is better (as I've said, I love electric instruments, I play electric guitar and my favorite instruments are electric pianos and synths, so I'm not expressing a preference), not because there isn't great and interesting electric jazz, but because I've listened enough jazz to realize that it's like that.


----------



## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

norman bates said:


> no, I was simply wrong. I still listen to rock, I like jazz rock and fusion and I love electric instruments, but an electric instrument does not make music more sophisticated or complex, that depends on what musician make with melodies, harmonies, rhythms, colors. And most of the most complex, daring and sophisticated jazz is acoustic. Not because acoustic music is better (as I've said, I love electric instruments, I play electric guitar and my favorite instruments are electric pianos and synths, so I'm not expressing a preference), not because there isn't great and interesting electric jazz, but because I've listened enough jazz to realize that it's like that.


I see what you mean, I just think if you once viewed electric instruments as having a more complex tone about them than acoustic instruments at one point in your life, I could get that and see how your criteria changed to assess complexity based on rhythm, melody, harmony and colors.


----------



## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

Captainnumber36 said:


> I see what you mean, I just think if you once viewed electric instruments as having a more complex tone about them than acoustic instruments at one point in your life, I could get that and see how your criteria changed to assess complexity based on rhythm, melody, harmony and colors.


I would say that the difference was that at first not having a deep knowledge of the genre I had more a prejudice than a real comprehension of the music (like "acoustic is boring stuff for old people") and electric jazz since I was coming from rock it was much more simple for me to understand the Mahavishnu orchestra with all the viscerality, the electric distorted guitar and the display of virtuosism, than let's say, Herbie Nichols (who at first didn't impress me at all, and now I see him as a towering genius of the genre, while the Mahavishnu is... a good band).


----------



## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

norman bates said:


> I would say that the difference was that at first not having a deep knowledge of the genre I had more a prejudice than a real comprehension of the music (like "acoustic is boring stuff for old people") and electric jazz since I was coming from rock it was much more simple for me to understand the Mahavishnu orchestra with all the viscerality, the electric distorted guitar and the display of virtuosism, than let's say, Herbie Nichols (who at first didn't impress me at all, and now I see him as a towering genius of the genre, while the Mahavishnu is... a good band).


To have taste is to have prejudice, in a way, you can't escape that. As long as you are not snobby about your preferences, imo, it's all ok.


----------



## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

Captainnumber36 said:


> To have taste is to have prejudice, in a way, you can't escape that. As long as you are not snobby about your preferences, imo, it's all ok.


prejudice or snobism to me means judging before having a real knowledge simply. So I think that one person can escape that with the experience (that's why I don't think that all opinions are equal). If I really know something, I have the ways to evaluate it and I don't like it, that's not more a preconveiced opinion.


----------



## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

I never held the idea that acoustic jazz was boring because I never heard any of it. I went from prog rock to fusion and then to the modern jazz of the 50s and 60s. It was all music to me. The earlier eras of jazz never really captured my imagination. In fact until about five or six years ago I never owned a Bebop recording. I've since bought several box sets, but I still don't listen to them much. I guess I like post bop. I heard Joe Henderson, Wayne Shorter, and Coltrane in my 20s and I still favor that music. I have a big collection of electric music, but I don't listen to much electric Miles. I was more into the fusion groups that came out of Miles's bands. Those groups wrote compositions that are more interesting than Miles long jams. At least for me anyway.


----------



## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

norman bates said:


> prejudice or snobism to me means judging before having a real knowledge simply. So I think that one person can escape that with the experience (that's why I don't think that all opinions are equal). If I really know something, I have the ways to evaluate it and I don't like it, that's not more a preconveiced opinion.


That's where we disagree, I think in terms of Art _appreciation_, all opinions are equal and valid. Now there are other components about Art someone may be more knowledgeable about, but when it comes to taste, all thoughts are equal in my perspective.


----------



## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

I like some straightforward stuff, and yes, I do find Miles fusion to be less straightforward, such as Strauss' Waltzes and Chopin's Nocturnes and Waltzes for piano...but when it comes to Jazz, I'm not so much for the more straightforward stuff like Kind of Blue or Blue Train.


----------



## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

I never thought of Kind Of Blue as straight ahead, it's just acoustic improvisation that's different than the Bebop jazz utilizing more chord changes. But you're right, it's all beside the point of personal taste, so I don't look down on music I don't like, it just doesn't interest me. Classical and jazz musicians with all their knowledge and training never wrote any catchy pop tunes or riffs so it's silly to look down at something you can't do or like. 
I'm always amazed at how simple so many rock riffs and basslines are but millions of people never thought of this stuff, so simple isn't easy. And it can't be learned at music conservatories.


----------



## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

starthrower said:


> I never thought of Kind Of Blue as straight ahead, it's just acoustic improvisation that's different than the Bebop jazz utilizing more chord changes. But you're right, it's all beside the point of personal taste, so I don't look down on music I don't like, it just doesn't interest me. Classical and jazz musicians with all their knowledge and training never wrote any catchy pop tunes or riffs so it's silly to look down at something you can't do or like.
> I'm always amazed at how simple so many rock riffs and basslines are but millions of people never thought of this stuff, so simple isn't easy. And it can't be learned at music conservatories.


Good post, I agree with everything you said.


----------



## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

Captainnumber36 said:


> That's where we disagree, I think in terms of Art _appreciation_, all opinions are equal and valid. Now there are other components about Art someone may be more knowledgeable about, but when it comes to taste, all thoughts are equal in my perspective.


well, I mean in terms of knowledge. Taste can improve. The uninformed taste of myself when I started listening to jazz is not equal of my taste today. That does not mean that I consider myself the ultimate judge on jazz, but that through the years I've learned to appreciate and understand a lot of things that I didn't understand at the time. That's why I value more the opinion of experts on a field than people who don't know anything about it. That does not mean that a person without experience can't say intelligent things on a piece of music of a genre he doesn't know well, but surely music can be learned as anything else.


----------



## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

Captainnumber36 said:


> All music is expressive and the message that is interpreted is subjective. Do you like Miles fusion period at all?


you mean his electronic phase like Bitches Brew and In a Silent Way. Ya! i like that better than Kind of Blue and stuff.


----------



## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

Phil loves classical said:


> you mean his electronic phase like Bitches Brew and In a Silent Way. Ya! i like that better than Kind of Blue and stuff.


Yes, that's what I meant! I like it better too.


----------



## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

norman bates said:


> well, I mean in terms of knowledge. Taste can improve. The uninformed taste of myself when I started listening to jazz is not equal of my taste today. That does not mean that I consider myself the ultimate judge on jazz, but that through the years I've learned to appreciate and understand a lot of things that I didn't understand at the time. That's why I value more the opinion of experts on a field than people who don't know anything about it. That does not mean that a person without experience can't say intelligent things on a piece of music of a genre he doesn't know well, but surely music can be learned as anything else.


That's another place we disagree, I don't think taste improves, I think it can change and to determine if it's for better or worse depends on how the individual asses it on a personal level.

Art isn't a competition in my book, and it doesn't take knowledge to appreciate a work, and imo, it shouldn't. If you need to read up on a piece to understand it, then I'd say the Artist has failed to communicate well.


----------

