# Do you enjoy Gershwin?



## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

I'm not the biggest fan, but I do have respect for what he tried to do.


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## Jacck (Dec 24, 2017)

yes, Gerschwin was an American Schubert


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## Merl (Jul 28, 2016)

Tiny bits but his jazz stylings are not my thang. Rarely play his music but there are some things I like.


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## les24preludes (May 1, 2018)

Gershwin, like Richard Rogers, Cole Porter and many others, wrote a lot of show tunes because there was a big market for shows, which also became well-known films like South Pacific, Oklahoma etc. The composers of show tunes mastered the art of the 32 bar tune, and there are innumerable 32-bar tunes that form the "standards" of the jazz repertoire. In this Gershwin was one of the greats. 

As a composer of larger works he was no Ravel or Debussy, so it's quite possible to divide his output into the parts you like and the parts you don't. Something I do with Bernstein, for instance. As a conductor or for his output in general I don't listen to him, but as the composer of West Side Story he was one of the greats.


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

les24preludes said:


> Gershwin, like Richard Rogers, Cole Porter and many others, wrote a lot of show tunes because there was a big market for shows, which also became well-known films like South Pacific, Oklahoma etc. The composers of show tunes mastered the art of the 32 bar tune, and there are innumerable 32-bar tunes that form the "standards" of the jazz repertoire. In this Gershwin was one of the greats.
> 
> As a composer of larger works he was no Ravel or Debussy, so it's quite possible to divide his output into the parts you like and the parts you don't. Something I do with Bernstein, for instance. As a conductor or for his output in general I don't listen to him, but as the composer of West Side Story he was one of the greats.


Certainly a smart way to look at it. What works by Gershwin do you enjoy?


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## derin684 (Feb 14, 2018)

I remember him being influenced by Ravel, he even asked to study with him. There's a quote about that too. I don't remember what exactly Ravel responded.


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## Guest (Jul 22, 2018)

Captainnumber36 said:


> I'm not the biggest fan, but I do have respect for what he tried to do.


I like him for what he _did_ do, which was that he composed his terrific and original music.


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

shirime said:


> I like him for what he _did_ do, which was that he composed his terrific and original music.


:lol: I see what you _did_ there, not _tried_ to do, like Sir Gershwin!


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## Guest (Jul 22, 2018)

derin684 said:


> I remember him being influenced by Ravel, he even asked to study with him. There's a quote about that too. I don't remember what exactly Ravel responded.


That's quite interesting; I was only aware that he went to Berg to study with him but instead Berg replied.......actually I forgot what he replied but it's at the start of Ross' _The Rest Is Noise_.


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

Whether these were really said by the composers, who knows... but allegedly, as a reply to Gershwin asking for lessons:

Ravel: "Why should you be a second-rate Ravel when you can be a first-rate Gershwin?" 

Stravinsky asked Gershwin how much money he made; when Gershwin told him, Stravinsky said, "Then I should take lessons with you."


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

To the question in the OP: yes, one of the finest melodists of the 20th century. I still mean to make time to listen to Porgy and Bess (only heard highlights so far).


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

Art Rock said:


> Whether these were really said by the composers, who knows... but allegedly, as a reply to Gershwin asking for lessons:
> 
> Ravel: "Why should you be a second-rate Ravel when you can be a first-rate Gershwin?"
> 
> Stravinsky asked Gershwin how much money he made; when Gershwin told him, Stravinsky said, "Then I should take lessons with you."


I second Ravel's response and laugh at Stravinsky's, if they are true!


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

What's not to like? Summertime is one of the greatest songs of its time.


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

Enthusiast said:


> What's not to like? Summertime is one of the greatest songs of its time.


I do enjoy that one! Rhapsody was in my mind while creating this thread.


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## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

Definitely his orchestral music, piano works/arrangements and _Porgy & Bess_, but as I'm not a real fan of musicals there's much I've left alone.


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## Biffo (Mar 7, 2016)

Art Rock said:


> Whether these were really said by the composers, who knows... but allegedly, as a reply to Gershwin asking for lessons:
> 
> Ravel: "Why should you be a second-rate Ravel when you can be a first-rate Gershwin?"
> 
> Stravinsky asked Gershwin how much money he made; when Gershwin told him, Stravinsky said, "Then I should take lessons with you."


When I heard the story it was Schoenberg and Gershwin. They certainly played tennis together.

https://www.wqxr.org/story/when-gershwin-and-schoenberg-played-tennis-together/


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## Joe B (Aug 10, 2017)

Gershwin's music is great. "An American in Paris" and "Rhapsody in Blue" are both excellent musical works. The songs he wrote when working with his brother are also entertaining and fun. I can only imagine what he would have composed had his life not been so short.


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## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

Gershwin as a songwriter was great. As to his classical pieces, he was one of my first prejudices. I was a jazz purist, and his jazz-inflected classical pieces sounded too much like high-society Paul Whiteman jazz, which I felt was beneath me, so I didn't bother with them. Then I was invited to play the sax part Rhapsody in Blue and An American in Paris with our local symphony, and he began to grow on me. 

Now I think his classical pieces are fun expressions of how he saw his world in his time.


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

I'm a big fan of Fitzgerald and the roaring 20s in general though.


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## jegreenwood (Dec 25, 2015)

Of the popular songwriters of that era, he is not my favorite. I'd take Arlen, Kern, Rodgers and Porter over him (in that order). A tie with Berlin. I enjoy the classical pieces, although I admit to not knowing "Porgy and Bess" as well as I should. But I've certainly never thought of him as a major composer.


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## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

Art Rock said:


> Whether these were really said by the composers, who knows... but allegedly, as a reply to Gershwin asking for lessons:
> 
> Ravel: "Why should you be a second-rate Ravel when you can be a first-rate Gershwin?"
> 
> Stravinsky asked Gershwin how much money he made; when Gershwin told him, Stravinsky said, "Then I should take lessons with you."


Didn't Gershwin also want to study with Schoenberg, who refused saying he was the next Bruckner?


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

I voted yes solely on the basis of my great enjoyment of the Rhapsody in Blue.


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## Highwayman (Jul 16, 2018)

I like Gershwin and enjoy his music that`s all.


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## Vasks (Dec 9, 2013)

Some of his classic tunes rolled into one 5 minute slot.


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## bharbeke (Mar 4, 2013)

Rhapsody in Blue is excellent. The Arizona classical radio listeners have voted it their most wanted piece a couple times. Do a YouTube search for The Melodica Men, and you'll see an amazing cover/interpretation of it.

Mr. Holland's Opus (the Dreyfuss movie) has some great Gershwin stuff in it.


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## Frost15 (Oct 27, 2021)

Rhapsody in Blue is one of my favorite music pieces ever composed. I never get tired of it. Apart from it I do enjoy other Gershwin works such as Cuban Overture.


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

Of course _Rhapsody in Blue_ is fantastic; I prefer the original jazz band version. But his other Classical works are also very good: _Concerto in F_; _An American in Paris_; _Cuban Overture_; and of course _Porgy & Bess_.

The _Three Preludes_, for piano but also in various incarnations (the one for clarinet) are wonderful.

Other works for solo piano include, _Blue Monday_; _Songbook_ (about a dozen virtuoso arrangements of his songs); and _Variations on "I've Got Rhythm"_ another concertante work for piano and jazz band.

He also left a seven minute work for string quartet, _Lullaby_; a short work for piano solo, or cello/violin and piano _Short Story_. There are a number short fragments "Melodies" and others ranging from 1-4 minutes that are charming, and might have become full fledged works.

Then there's the huge number of popular songs, mostly from his musicals. Miniature masterpieces.

Gershwin is a composer I like and listen to his music often. It is a tragedy that he died so young; one can only imagine what works he might have written.


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## fbjim (Mar 8, 2021)

I don't enjoy Gershwin, I adore him.


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## HerbertNorman (Jan 9, 2020)

I enjoy his music and he was a melodist that spoke to me immediately when I first heard "Rhapsody in Blue". I wanted to explore his music further because of that.
YES for me....


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## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

I like Gershwin's vocal/theatre music but for the instrumental pieces I cannot muster much enthusiasm. The shorter, the better, the Preludes are good, the Rhapsody in blue is o.k. but has not aged well, IMO, but the Concerto in F I find pretentious and rather boring.


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## Rogerx (Apr 27, 2018)

From time to time, when I am in the mood .


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## JTS (Sep 26, 2021)

I can’t see how anyone could not like Rhapsody in blue


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

JTS said:


> I can't see how anyone could not like Rhapsody in blue


It feels immature to me, melodically and structurally. A bit disjointed, or something like that.


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## JTS (Sep 26, 2021)

Captainnumber36 said:


> It feels immature to me, melodically and structurally. A bit disjointed, or something like that.


Immature? In what way?


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## jegreenwood (Dec 25, 2015)

Captainnumber36 said:


> It feels immature to me, melodically and structurally. A bit disjointed, or something like that.


It is, but it's still great. 

It is a Rhapsody, which implies a freer form than other types of classical music. And remember, it was originally composed for a jazz orchestra.






Edit - found this quote from Bernstein in Wikipedia:

"Rhapsody in Blue is not a real composition in the sense that whatever happens in it must seem inevitable, or even pretty inevitable. You can cut out parts of it without affecting the whole in any way except to make it shorter. You can remove any of these stuck-together sections and the piece still goes on as bravely as before. You can even interchange these sections with one another and no harm done. You can make cuts within a section, or add new cadenzas, or play it with any combination of instruments or on the piano alone; it can be a five-minute piece or a six-minute piece or a twelve-minute piece. And in fact all these things are being done to it every day. It's still the Rhapsody in Blue."

And of course Bernstein conducted one of the great recordings of the work.

By the way, can anyone recommend a more recent recording of the original version?


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

Captainnumber36 said:


> It feels immature to me, melodically and structurally. A bit disjointed, or something like that.


Try this performance:


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## larold (Jul 20, 2017)

In small doses ... Rhapsody In Blue, American In Paris, Cuban Overture

Apparently a lot of people like the rhapsody -- it came in first place in two NPR listener polls last year including my local NPR station's 50th anniversary poll of music preferences.


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## Bwv 1080 (Dec 31, 2018)

Listen to more Jazz Gershwin than classical. Is he the only classical composer that has works that became standards?


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## jegreenwood (Dec 25, 2015)

Bwv 1080 said:


> Listen to more Jazz Gershwin than classical. Is he the only classical composer that has works that became standards?


Bernstein comes to mind. Arthur Sullivan? Kurt Weill? And of course a number of classical compositions have been used as the bases for popular songs.

(Hope I understood your question correctly.)


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## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

Kurt Weill and Bernstein were more "classical"/serious in many of their works and wrote quite a few jazz standards. (From his two symphonies and violin concerto, I think Weill could have become a "serious" composer with a mix of neoclassicism and expressionism, like Hartmann maybe, if he had not been so successful with theatre/musical.)

The RiB is a mere potpourri; there is nothing wrong with that but I think the beginning is the best and it just doesn't hold up so well after a few listenings. "Porgy and Bess" is a considerable achievement, IMO far more original and convincing than any of his instrumental works.

There is one recording of the RiB, I think I have it or at least heard it where they mixed a piano roll of Gershwin himself together with a modern orchestra, it's very fast, much quicker than e.g. Bernstein.


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## Bwv 1080 (Dec 31, 2018)

Kreisler jr said:


> of the RiB, I think I have it or at least heard it where they mixed a piano roll of Gershwin himself together with a modern orchestra, it's very fast, much quicker than e.g. Bernstein.


Just listened to it - sounds much more like 20s Jazz / stride piano etc


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## mikeh375 (Sep 7, 2017)

I love Gershwin. Anybody familiar with his own tricky arrangements of some of his classic songs?


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## MarkW (Feb 16, 2015)

Was one of America's great songwriters. His instrumental works are a mixed bag, but Rhapsody is a work of fusion genius .

Porgy is basically a collection of terrific songs with serviceable connecting tissue. (But then again, so is Rigoletto!)


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## jegreenwood (Dec 25, 2015)

Kreisler jr said:


> Kurt Weill and Bernstein were more "classical"/serious in many of their works and wrote quite a few jazz standards. (From his two symphonies and violin concerto, I think Weill could have become a "serious" composer with a mix of neoclassicism and expressionism, like *Hartmann *maybe, if he had not been so successful with theatre/musical.)
> 
> The RiB is a mere potpourri; there is nothing wrong with that but I think the beginning is the best and it just doesn't hold up so well after a few listenings. "Porgy and Bess" is a considerable achievement, IMO far more original and convincing than any of his instrumental works.
> 
> There is one recording of the RiB, I think I have it or at least heard it where they mixed a piano roll of Gershwin himself together with a modern orchestra, it's very fast, much quicker than e.g. Bernstein.


Hartmann? https://robhartmann.com/about ?


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## jegreenwood (Dec 25, 2015)

Bwv 1080 said:


> Just listened to it - sounds much more like 20s Jazz / stride piano etc


Can't believe no modern orchestra has recorded that arrangement. Licensing restrictions?


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

hammeredklavier said:


> Try this performance:


I've heard that before, it does have a nice energy, and Lang Lang's mannerisms do indeed help amplify the music, I can't lie. I don't think his movements are insincere though, and are actually part of his expression.


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

jegreenwood said:


> It is, but it's still great.
> 
> It is a Rhapsody, which implies a freer form than other types of classical music. And remember, it was originally composed for a jazz orchestra.
> 
> ...


Very interesting quote, thanks for sharing that!


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## eljr (Aug 8, 2015)

Captainnumber36 said:


> I'm not the biggest fan, but I do have respect for what he tried to do.


TRied to do?

I think you mean, what he accomplished.


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

eljr said:


> TRied to do?
> 
> I think you mean, what he accomplished.


Hahaha, true, a bit of offensive language there on my part. My bad!


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## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

jegreenwood said:


> Hartmann? https://robhartmann.com/about ?


Karl Amadeus Hartmann, one of the best symphonists of the mid-20th century.


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## eljr (Aug 8, 2015)

hammeredklavier said:


> Try this performance:


I have listened to the music from this show for years now and recently also acquired the Blu-ray.

I am sick I was unaware of it in advance and did not attend. I have little doubt this would have been the most personally enjoyable performances of my life.

As I did miss it, that honor remains with Songs from Liquid Days, Philip Glass at Lincoln Center in the mid 1980's.


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

I think Lang Lang is a fantastic performer. I'm a fan, and in the minority on this board, I'm pretty sure.


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

Art Rock said:


> Whether these were really said by the composers, who knows... but allegedly, as a reply to Gershwin asking for lessons:
> Ravel: "Why should you be a second-rate Ravel when you can be a first-rate Gershwin?"
> Stravinsky asked Gershwin how much money he made; when Gershwin told him, Stravinsky said, "Then I should take lessons with you."


I heard this story, from a friend of mine, a conductor, who loved Gershwin, and programmed his works often -

Gershwin wanted desperately to be regarded as a serious 'legit" composer, not as merely that NYC tunesmith who cranked out popular songs....
When commissioned to write his Piano Concerto, he got down to work, and orchestrated it himself....upon completion, Gershwin was insecure, afraid of negative reception to his work, so he arranged for a private performance for a select audience, to get their reaction...Ravel, whom Gershwin admired greatly and wished to emulate, was in the audience....
Upon hearing the work, Ravel was hugely impressed, thought it was excellent, which pleased Gershwin to no end...overall the Concerto was very well-received....
In fact, Ravel thought so highly of it, that when he composed his Piano Concerto in G, he imitated Gershwin's work!! with the bluesy 2nd movement!! the roles of admired/admirer were reversed!!


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## jegreenwood (Dec 25, 2015)

Kreisler jr said:


> Karl Amadeus Hartmann, one of the best symphonists of the mid-20th century.


Oops. Misread your prior post. I thought "he" referred to Hartmann, but I realize now it referred to Weill (referencing musical theatre).


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## JTS (Sep 26, 2021)

Worth a spin…Earl Wild and the Pops


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## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

jegreenwood said:


> Oops. Misread your prior post. I thought "he" referred to Hartmann, but I realize now it referred to Weill (referencing musical theatre).


I was basically agreeing with your point that Weill and Bernstein were good "classical" composers who also wrote songs that became standards. And wanted to add that if Weill had not gone into musical theatre (which I find a bit deplorable because I don't really care for his post-Mahagonny/emigration theatre works) he could have become a very good "serious" composer of the ~1900 generation, like e.g. K.A. Hartmann. There is not much use in comparing composers with such different backgrounds but the Weill violin concerto is IMO one of the best of the 1920s and a different league from any purely instrumental Gershwin.


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## 59540 (May 16, 2021)

Captainnumber36 said:


> I think Lang Lang is a fantastic performer. I'm a fan, and in the minority on this board, I'm pretty sure.


I think he gets lambasted unnecessarily. So he's a showman. So is Yuja Wang, so were Paganini and Liszt. Meh.


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## SONNET CLV (May 31, 2014)

*Do you enjoy Gershwin?*
______________________

Great music. Great songs. What's not to like?
And that older brother of his is something, too. Great lyrics!


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## BrahmsWasAGreatMelodist (Jan 13, 2019)

Meh

...........


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## jegreenwood (Dec 25, 2015)

JTS said:


> Worth a spin…Earl Wild and the Pops
> 
> View attachment 160676


Did they record it more than once? I have that pair on a Living Stereo SACD with different cover art.


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## fbjim (Mar 8, 2021)

jegreenwood said:


> Did they record it more than once? I have that pair on a Living Stereo SACD with different cover art.


That's probably an international release, given the logo (US releases had Nipper the Dog, which is used by a bunch of different companies depending on who owns that logo in whatever given country)


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## Coach G (Apr 22, 2020)

Every easy listening and jazz musician, including the likes of Tony Bennett, Frank Sinatra, Ella Fitzgerald, Miles Davis, Louis Armstrong, Harry Connick, and Michael Feinstein; have recorded George Gershwin's show tunes. Liberace regularly devoted a good portion of his live show to a "Gershwin Medley". This is evidence enough of Gershwin's greatness as one of America's great musicians and national treasures. It should be noted George Gershwin died young (age 38); and as someone already mentioned, he wanted to take lessons from Stravinsky. He also played tennis with Arnold Schoenberg. Obviously, he was no hack, but had a deep interest in pushing the limits of artistic expression. His associations with Stravinsky and Schoenberg, the leading figures of the most innovative (if not controversial, daring, and cutting edge) music of Gershwin's times demonstrate that Gershwin was well on his way to becoming even more than what he was. As much as the wonderful _Rhapsody in Blue_ speaks for the American urban landscape, the hustle and bustle of city life; I think that might have been just the tip of the iceberg, juvenilia compared to what could have been.

My favorite recording of _Rhapsody in Blue_ is Earl Wild/Arthur Feidler with the Boston Pops Orchestra.


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

Coach G said:


> Every easy listening and jazz musician, including the likes of Tony Bennett, Frank Sinatra, Ella Fitzgerald, Miles Davis, Louis Armstrong, Harry Connick, and Michael Feinstein; have recorded George Gershwin's show tunes. Liberace regularly devoted a good portion of his live show to a "Gershwin Medley". This is evidence enough of Gershwin's greatness as one of America's great musicians and national treasures. It should be noted George Gershwin died young (age 38); and as someone already mentioned, he wanted to take lessons from Stravinsky. He also played tennis with Arnold Schoenberg. Obviously, he was no hack, but had a deep interest in pushing the limits of artistic expression. His associations with Stravinsky and Schoenberg, the leading figures of the most innovative (if not controversial, daring, and cutting edge) music of Gershwin's times demonstrate that Gershwin was well on his way to becoming even more than what he was. As much as the wonderful _Rhapsody in Blue_ speaks for the American urban landscape, the hustle and bustle of city life; I think that might have been just the tip of the iceberg, juvenilia compared to what could have been.
> 
> My favorite recording of _Rhapsody in Blue_ is Earl Wild/Arthur Feidler with the Boston Pops Orchestra.


You make me want to give him more of a chance.


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

Rhapsody in Blue is an orchestral standard...

There are orchestra versions, and the original jazz band version -

for orchestral - I like Bernstein/ColSO [Sony/CBS] - lots of swagger, swing...
For the jazz band version - Levine/CSO wins it for me....the opening clarinet solo [L. Combs] is esp engaging...great glissando, lip slurs, etc...what a hoot!!.

Never cared much for the Fiedler/Boston Pops - Earl Wild is a terrific soloist, of course, but the orchestra sounds wimpy in the big tutti sections...really lacking in punch compared with other versions.


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

Heck148 said:


> Rhapsody in Blue is an orchestral standard...
> 
> There are orchestra versions, and the original jazz band version -
> 
> ...


This recording came out in 2010 and it has the best RiB, IMO.

*Gershwin By Grofe: Original Orchestrations & Arrangements*


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

SanAntone said:


> This recording came out in 2010 and it has the best RiB, IMO.
> 
> *Gershwin By Grofe: Original Orchestrations & Arrangements*


When was this recorded?? Al Gallodoro died in 2008...great player, one of the all-time great jazz saxophonists, reed players....he claimed to have performed RiB solo some 10,000 times in his career....probably the most of anyone, tho Peter Hadcock [assistant principal BSO, principal in Boston Pops '65-'90] racked up an impressive number as well...

An interesting highlight of Gallodoro's career in the "classical" world came in 1942...he had been hired in 1940 to play bass clarinet in the NBC Symphony under Toscanini....he is featured in the NBC recording of Shostakovich Sym #7 [7/42] - the big bass clarinet solo in mvt II - what a huge, juicy, robust sound!! really outstanding work!!


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## Bwv 1080 (Dec 31, 2018)

Rhythm changes is a foundation of jazz, Gershwin was more than just a great songwriter who penned some standards


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

Heck148 said:


> When was this recorded?? Al Gallodoro died in 2008...great player, one of the all-time great jazz saxophonists, reed players....he claimed to have performed RiB solo some 10,000 times in his career....probably the most of anyone, tho Peter Hadcock [***'t principal BSO, principal in Boston Pops '65-'90] racked up an impressive number as well...
> 
> An interesting highlight of Gallodoro's career in the "classical" world came in 1942...he had been hired in 1940 to play bass clarinet in the NBC Symphony under Toscanini....he is featured in the NBC recording of Shostakovich Sym #7 [7/42] - the big bass clarinet solo in mvt II - what a huge, juicy, robust sound!! really outstanding work!!


I don't know when it was recorded, I had assumed shortly before it was released, but from your information it might have been an older recording. In any event, it is my favorite version of RiB and the other works included are also fantastic.


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## JTS (Sep 26, 2021)

jegreenwood said:


> Did they record it more than once? I have that pair on a Living Stereo SACD with different cover art.


Just once I think. Been released in various remastering.


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## 59540 (May 16, 2021)

I think this is great stuff. It almost seems like a sonatina to me:


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## jegreenwood (Dec 25, 2015)

Kreisler jr said:


> Kurt Weill and Bernstein were more "classical"/serious in many of their works and wrote quite a few jazz standards. (From his two symphonies and violin concerto, I think Weill could have become a "serious" composer with a mix of neoclassicism and expressionism, like Hartmann maybe, if he had not been so successful with theatre/musical.)
> 
> . . . .


Utterly off-topic trivia question that occurred to me during my workout. Who is the only lyricist who wrote a Broadway show with both Weill and Bernstein?


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## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

I am not sure I understand the question but Ira Gershwin was involved in "Firebrand of Florence" and "Lady in the Dark". I think these are the only "American" pieces by Weill I know more than single songs of and didn't much care for them.

To get back, the mixed Rhapsody I mentioned above was Gershwin on piano 1924 + Tilson Thomas cond. Columbia Jazz band 1976.


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

jegreenwood said:


> Utterly off-topic trivia question that occurred to me during my workout. Who is the only lyricist who wrote a Broadway show with both Weill and Bernstein?


Alan Jay Lerner wrote Love Life with Weill and 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue with Bernstein.


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

Kreisler jr said:


> Kurt Weill and Bernstein were more "classical"/serious in many of their works and wrote quite a few jazz standards. (From his two symphonies and violin concerto, I think Weill could have become a "serious" composer with a mix of neoclassicism and expressionism, like Hartmann maybe, if he had not been so successful with theatre/musical.)
> 
> The RiB is a mere potpourri; there is nothing wrong with that but I think the beginning is the best and it just doesn't hold up so well after a few listenings. "Porgy and Bess" is a considerable achievement, IMO far more original and convincing than any of his instrumental works.
> 
> There is one recording of the RiB, I think I have it or at least heard it where they mixed a piano roll of Gershwin himself together with a modern orchestra, it's very fast, much quicker than e.g. Bernstein.


Why do you consider Weill's works for stage less serious than his early concert works? I think he found his strength and produced some of the greatest works for musical theatre.


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## amfortas (Jun 15, 2011)

Coach G said:


> It should be noted George Gershwin died young (age 38) . . .


It's always a little unsettling to recall that Gershwin was born only two years before Aaron Copland. Because the former died so young, they seem like two different generations. Imagine if Gershwin had lived to become an elder statesman of American music, like Copland, and what he might have given us in all those intervening years.


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## jegreenwood (Dec 25, 2015)

SanAntone said:


> This recording came out in 2010 and it has the best RiB, IMO.
> 
> *Gershwin By Grofe: Original Orchestrations & Arrangements*


Plus this volume from 2007.

https://www.prestomusic.com/classical/products/7952534--ferd-grofe-george-gershwin-symphonic-jazz

Edit - Just downloaded the Rhapsody in Blue as a single track - $2.00 for FLAC. I might buy more tracks, but it was the Rhapsody that I wanted.


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

jegreenwood said:


> Plus this volume from 2007.
> 
> https://www.prestomusic.com/classical/products/7952534--ferd-grofe-george-gershwin-symphonic-jazz


Looks interesting.

There's also this from 2018, *David Robertson*, *St. Louis Symphony* with *Kiril Gerstein*.


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## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

SanAntone said:


> Why do you consider Weill's works for stage less serious than his early concert works? I think he found his strength and produced some of the greatest works for musical theatre.


I didn't care for any of his American stage works I heard (which was admittedly only "Firebrand" and "Lady in the Dark" in some completeness, only some famous songs from some of the others). But most of them seem to have vanished from the stage, haven't they? This might sometimes be the subject matters fault, I don't know. I am not really familiar with other 1940s American Broadway to tell if and how Weill sticks out. 
To be honest I even think his most famous collaborations with Brecht, "Threepenny" and "Mahagonny" are more promises than fully convincing accomplishments. Weill would have had both the melodic gift and the abilities in composition and instrumentation to compose a stage work close to Berg's in rank. I don't think Mahagonny is close and while I have not heard all the American works, the ones I have heard (or parts of) are even further off. 
Of course nobody knows if a continued path along the peculiar mixture of his last German works had produced a masterpiece. I don't know "Die Bürgschaft" either (it was never really revived) and "Silbersee" is an utterly strange piece, so maybe it would have been a dead end anyway, with Mahagonny as early zenith.
So I don't think he should have composed symphonies instead (although I find them worthy and comparably underrated, the violin concerto even better) but I am in fact disappointed by what I have heard of his American stage works.


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

Kreisler jr said:


> I didn't care for any of his American stage works I heard (which was admittedly only "Firebrand" and "Lady in the Dark" in some completeness, only some famous songs from some of the others). But most of them seem to have vanished from the stage, haven't they? This might sometimes be the subject matters fault, I don't know. I am not really familiar with other 1940s American Broadway to tell if and how Weill sticks out.
> To be honest I even think his most famous collaborations with Brecht, "Threepenny" and "Mahagonny" are more promises than fully convincing accomplishments. Weill would have had both the melodic gift and the abilities in composition and instrumentation to compose a stage work close to Berg's in rank. I don't think Mahagonny is close and while I have not heard all the American works, the ones I have heard (or parts of) are even further off.
> Of course nobody knows if a continued path along the peculiar mixture of his last German works had produced a masterpiece. I don't know "Die Bürgschaft" either (it was never really revived) and "Silbersee" is an utterly strange piece, so maybe it would have been a dead end anyway, with Mahagonny as early zenith.
> So I don't think he should have composed symphonies instead (although I find them worthy and comparably underrated, the violin concerto even better) but I am in fact disappointed by what I have heard of his American stage works.


Of course you are free to your opinion, one which I do not share.

While his early concert works are well written and very worthwhile musically, they are essentially student works. I am eternally grateful that his career was spent almost entirely in the theatre, a path be began immediately with the end of his period of study. However he did return to concert works later in life, his 2nd symphony was composed in 1934, but mainly his concert compositions were suites from his stage works.

For me, Weill's importance is entirely because of his genius at musical theatre.

I consider these works to be unqualified masterpieces.

_Die Dreigroschenoper
Aufstieg und Fall der Stadt Mahagonny
Die sieben Todsünden
Street Scene
Lost in the Stars_

While these two are mainly known for the hit songs that came out of them, these shows are a cut above the Broadway musicals of their time:

_Lady in the Dark
One Touch of Venus_

Most of these works continue to get staged and the scores, or a significant number of songs, are recorded. His works have remained in the repertory much more so than Gershwin's Broadway shows, which are rarely staged.

One late work, _Love Life_ (the only show which never got a cast recording because of a musicians strike), has not received the attention it probably deserves.


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## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

Two or three hit wonder.

No


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## jegreenwood (Dec 25, 2015)

SanAntone said:


> Of course you are free to your opinion, one which I do not share.
> 
> While his early concert works are well written and very worthwhile musically, they are essentially student works. I am eternally grateful that his career was spent almost entirely in the theatre, a path be began immediately with the end of his period of study. However he did return to concert works later in life, his 2nd symphony was composed in 1934, but mainly his concert compositions were suites from his stage works.
> 
> ...


_Lady in the Dark_ was last seen in NYC in 2019 as part of ENCORES, the highly successful series that generally presents semi-staged musicals that for one reason or another are not candidates for a full fledged revival. (Of course, sometimes they're wrong; the current Broadway production of _Chicago_ started there and is now in its third decade.). By the way, lyrics are by Ira Gershwin, so it's sort of on topic. But if I had to pick the greatest American song with music by Weill, the choice would be easy: "September Song" is one of the greatest popular songs of the past century.


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## jegreenwood (Dec 25, 2015)

PlaySalieri said:


> Two or three hit wonder.
> 
> No


That's more than Pachelbel.


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## Oldhoosierdude (May 29, 2016)

Captainnumber36 said:


> I'm not the biggest fan, but I do have respect for what he tried to do.


Some of his output I greatly appreciate. Some not. I can't even say it is 50/50.

There are other composers I approach the same way.


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## Oldhoosierdude (May 29, 2016)

Captainnumber36 said:


> I think Lang Lang is a fantastic performer. I'm a fan, and in the minority on this board, I'm pretty sure.


I am amused by the outrage against him on TC


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## Pat Fairlea (Dec 9, 2015)

I'm not particularly a Gershwin fan - he might have done better to have left the orchestra alone - but enjoy some of his piano works such as the Jazz Preludes.


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## jegreenwood (Dec 25, 2015)

For anyone with access to The NY Times, there's a review today of the Met's production of _Porgy and Bess_. Much of it is devoted to its social context. N.b. It comes right after the premiere of the Met's first production of an opera from a black composer (Terence Blanchard).


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## eljr (Aug 8, 2015)

jegreenwood said:


> For anyone with access to The NY Times, there's a review today of the Met's production of _Porgy and Bess_. Much of it is devoted to its social context. N.b. It comes right after the premiere of the Met's first production of an opera from a black composer (Terence Blanchard).


Interesting review. It seems race has entangled even opera.


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## fbjim (Mar 8, 2021)

eljr said:


> Interesting review. It seems race has entangled even opera.


well specifically for Porgy and Bess its been an issue since roughly its release.


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

fbjim said:


> well specifically for Porgy and Bess its been an issue since roughly its release.


The alternative view is that Gershwin stipulated that the entire cast had to be African American (except for the few small roles portraying white characters), which offered badly needed opportunities at the time, and still today.

I won't read the article since I suspect it will contain every "woke" cliché imaginable. Even today operatic roles are the last hangover from the blackface period.

The work is a masterpiece and stands on both its own artistic merit and the history of its creation. Dubose Heywood and the Gershwin's have nothing to answer for.


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## fbjim (Mar 8, 2021)

that's actually kind of what I meant, the fact that Gershwin explicitly said he didn't want it done with blackface roles (which you'd still see back then with Othello etc) was an indication that race was always part of the context of the discussion surrounding the work, and a lot of black scholarship has been written around the work since the day it was released. what I really meant is that it isn't anything new.

like many things scholarship can be abused when brought into the sphere of general discourse, which is part of a pattern involving the abuse of terms from sociological scholarship in current "cultural war" garbage discourse.


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## JTS (Sep 26, 2021)

I saw the Mets Porgy and Bess and there is nothing whatever objectionable about it any more than there is anything objectionable about say Wozzek or Peter Grimes. It always amazes me these days when people raise problems where there are none. Frankly they need to get a life and go to parts of the world with real problems.


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## amfortas (Jun 15, 2011)

SanAntone said:


> The alternative view is that Gershwin stipulated that the entire cast had to be African American (except for the few small roles portraying white characters), which offered badly needed opportunities at the time, and still today.
> 
> I won't read the article since I suspect it will contain every "woke" cliché imaginable. Even today operatic roles are the last hangover from the blackface period.
> 
> The work is a masterpiece and stands on both its own artistic merit and the history of its creation. Dubose Heywood and the Gershwin's have nothing to answer for.


The casting stipulation, laudable as it may be, doesn't render the work itself, and its place in American cultural history, any less problematic. As an indication, consider the DVD of the excellent San Francisco Opera production, where African Americans make up almost the entirety of the cast, but are barely to be found among the audience.


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## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

JTS said:


> It always amazes me these days when people raise problems where there are none. Frankly they need to get a life and *go to parts of the world with real problems.*


But this would, among other things, require leaving one's desk or favorite Starbucks Café...


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## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

amfortas said:


> The casting stipulation, laudable as it may be, doesn't render the work itself, and its place in American cultural history, any less problematic. As an indication, consider the DVD of the excellent San Francisco Opera production, where African Americans make up almost the entirety of the cast, but are barely to be found among the audience.


You certainly don't want to suggest *forcing* African Americans to attend opera? 
There is only so much one can do against self-segregation and/or entertainment preferences; casting and shifting blame in all directions, especially for something that is in virtually all other circumstances treated as individual preference (go to this or that opera instead of a ball game or whatever) without need for justification is IMO far more toxic and divisive than just accepting that removing obvious and explicit obstacles will only go so far and some things might be different forever. I thought it was o.k. to be different. Do you dare to suggest that it is somehow "better" to attend opera than a rap concert or a ball game?


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## amfortas (Jun 15, 2011)

Kreisler jr said:


> You certainly don't want to suggest *forcing* African Americans to attend opera?
> There is only so much one can do against self-segregation and/or entertainment preferences; casting and shifting blame in all directions, especially for something that is in virtually all other circumstances treated as individual preference (go to this or that opera instead of a ball game or whatever) without need for justification is IMO far more toxic and divisive than just accepting that removing obvious and explicit obstacles will only go so far and some things might be different forever. I thought it was o.k. to be different. Do you dare to suggest that it is somehow "better" to attend opera than a rap concert or a ball game?


Strawman arguments do little to advance a discussion.


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

amfortas said:


> The casting stipulation, laudable as it may be, doesn't render the work itself, and its place in American cultural history, any less problematic. As an indication, consider the DVD of the excellent San Francisco Opera production, where African Americans make up almost the entirety of the cast, but are barely to be found among the audience.


Its place in American cultural history is as a great work for the stage devoted to an African American theme filled with African American singers/actors. If the audience is not sufficiently integrated to your satisfaction, that is a different subject altogether.

This is my last on this subject since it is just too silly to discuss.


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## fbjim (Mar 8, 2021)

for the record i did not wish to start discourse on the racial merits, or lack thereof in Porgy and Bess, I just take issue with the idea that this discourse is new, or a product of our times. It was in fact heavily discussed, especially in black scholarship since the work was released.


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## amfortas (Jun 15, 2011)

SanAntone said:


> Its place in American cultural history is as a great work for the stage devoted to an African American theme filled with African American singers/actors. If the audience is not sufficiently integrated to your satisfaction, that is a different subject altogether.
> 
> This is my last on this subject since it is just too silly to discuss.


My satisfaction is irrelevant, but thanks for considering it.


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## JTS (Sep 26, 2021)

amfortas said:


> The casting stipulation, laudable as it may be, doesn't render the work itself, and its place in American cultural history, any less problematic. As an indication, consider the DVD of the excellent San Francisco Opera production, where African Americans make up almost the entirety of the cast, but are barely to be found among the audience.


I attended a recital by Ravi Shankar with no Indians in the audience. A problem?


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## amfortas (Jun 15, 2011)

JTS said:


> I attended a recital by Ravi Shankar with no Indians in the audience. A problem?


Probably not, though I can't speak for Shankar. But we're talking about very different circumstances.

African Americans in the U.S. have long seen their lives stereotypically represented, and their cultural contributions appropriated, by white artists. Over the years, many of them have viewed _Porgy and Bess_ as falling, to one extent or another, within this dubious tradition.

Personally, I see the opera as well-intentioned and artistically exceptional, so I'm not troubled by it. But even the most cursory of searches will show that the work has never been free from controversy.


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## 59540 (May 16, 2021)

amfortas said:


> The casting stipulation, laudable as it may be, doesn't render the work itself, and its place in American cultural history, any less problematic. As an indication, consider the DVD of the excellent San Francisco Opera production, where African Americans make up almost the entirety of the cast, but are barely to be found among the audience.


I wonder if the same wouldn't be the case for a staging of Joplin's Treemonisha, though.


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## JTS (Sep 26, 2021)

amfortas said:


> Probably not, though I can't speak for Shankar. But we're talking about very different circumstances.
> 
> African Americans in the U.S. have long seen their lives stereotypically represented, and their cultural contributions appropriated, by white artists. Over the years, many of them have viewed _Porgy and Bess_ as falling, to one extent or another, within this dubious tradition.
> 
> Personally, I see the opera as well-intentioned and artistically exceptional, so I'm not troubled by it. But even the most cursory of searches will show that the work has never been free from controversy.


Of course. But you can also say that Wozzek and Peter Grimes also shows certain stereotypes among white people. What about Miller's 'Death of a Salesman'?


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## 59540 (May 16, 2021)

JTS said:


> Of course. But you can also say that Wozzek and Peter Grimes also shows certain stereotypes among white people. What about Miller's 'Death of a Salesman'?


This is getting into political territory, but that's just...not a good comparison.


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## JTS (Sep 26, 2021)

dissident said:


> This is getting into political territory, but that's just...not a good comparison.


Why not? Give a reason.

It has been said that Wozzek influenced Porgy and Porgy influenced Grimes.


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## 59540 (May 16, 2021)

JTS said:


> Why not? Give a reason.
> 
> It has been said that Wozzek influenced Porgy and Porgy influenced Grimes.


They're just not analogous to the black experience in the US.


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## amfortas (Jun 15, 2011)

dissident said:


> I wonder if the same wouldn't be the case for a staging of Joplin's Treemonisha, though.


It might well be. But I doubt anyone would avoid Joplin's work because they saw it as cultural appropriation.


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## 59540 (May 16, 2021)

amfortas said:


> It might well be. But I doubt anyone would avoid Joplin's work because they saw it as cultural appropriation.


Of which there's really no generally agreed-upon definition.

https://www.thedailybeast.com/you-cant-steal-a-culture-in-defense-of-cultural-appropriation


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

I went and dug out my copies of the excellent Nonesuch Records series of classic George & Ira Gershwin musicals:

*Pardon My English*










*Strike Up the Band*










*Lady Be Good!*










*Girl Crazy*










*Oh, Kay!*










The original plan was to do six, but I don't think they ever released _Of Thee I Sing_, or if they did, I missed it. There is a good version of that one by Michael Tilson Thomas.

These are meticulous recreations of the original orchestrations and song order, essentially cast albums of the shows as they would have been done originally. They all came with a booklet with several essays and a synopsis and full sets of lyrics, as well as vintage photos. Orchestra of St. Luke's conducted by Eric Stern or John Mauceri, restored by Tommy Krasker, with orchestrations by a group of the busiest Broadway orchestrators and features an all-star cast of singers.

I snapped them up as soon as they came out, and now they are mostly out of print.


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

Here's a more interesting article on the Met's production from WRTI | By Susan Lewis
Published February 10, 2021

*Classical Album of the Week: Metropolitan Opera's GRAMMY-Nominated Cast Album, Porgy and Bess*












> The Met's season-opening 2019 production was part of a broader effort exploring race in opera, which included an exhibition titled, Black Voices at the Met, exploring the company's hiring practices with respect to Black artists over the years. A companion recording, Black Voices Rise, includes performances by contralto Marion Anderson, who in 1955 was the first African American to perform a leading role at the Met, baritione Robert McFerrin, who made his debut several weeks later, and soprano Leontyne Price, among others.
> 
> Gershwin stipulated that Porgy and Bess was to always be performed with a Black cast.


I saw excerpts from Terence Blanchard's, _Fire Shut Up in My Bones_, on Met Opera on Demand - looks like a wonderful work. Of course, I've liked his music for decades, starting back in New Orleans with his quintet that he later brought to NYC. Also his film scores are excellent, I think he's written about 50.

But now that it's become an issue (a red herring, IMO) I wonder what was the audience demographics for that performance. I doubt it was any different since most performances are subscription holders; my wife and I had one the last two years we lived in NYC.


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## Rogerx (Apr 27, 2018)

78% say yes soo the yes have it.


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## JTS (Sep 26, 2021)

dissident said:


> They're just not analogous to the black experience in the US.


OK. I saw Hamlet done at the RSC with an all black cast and a mainly white audience. No objection on cultural grounds there apparently?

The thing is with Porgy and Bess that African American actors have no problem in performing it and welcome the chance to perform it. Just that African Americans on the whole are not into opera and don't come and see it. But then how many fishermen come to see Peter Grimes?


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## amfortas (Jun 15, 2011)

JTS said:


> OK. I saw Hamlet done at the RSC with an all black cast and a mainly white audience. No objection on cultural grounds there apparently?


Again, you're talking about an entirely different set of historical and cultural circumstances. Black and white are not simply the interchangeable colors of chess pieces.



JTS said:


> The thing is with Porgy and Bess that African American actors have no problem in performing it and welcome the chance to perform it.


Over the years, planned productions of the opera have been cancelled and/or seriously impeded precisely because of an inability to find African American singers willing to perform it.



JTS said:


> Just that African Americans on the whole are not into opera and don't come and see it. But then how many fishermen come to see Peter Grimes?


How many fishermen condemn Peter Grimes as an offensive misrepresentation and appropriation of their culture? (It's a real question: I honestly don't know).


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## mikeh375 (Sep 7, 2017)

Perhaps the black and white of two keyboards is the least contentious....


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

Aside from the traditional operatic productions, this one released in 1956 on Bethlehem Records has always been a favorite of mine. It rearranged the music for Jazz band and features a cast of Broadway and Jazz singers such as Mel Tormé, Johnny Hartman, and Frances Faye.










*The Complete Porgy and Bess*

Mel Tormé (Porgy)
Frances Faye (Bess)
Johnny Hartman (Crown)
Betty Roche (Clara)
George Kirby (Sportin' Life)
Sallie Blair (Serena)
Frank Rosolino (Jake)
Loulie Jean Norman (Strawberry Woman)
Joe Derise (Honey Man)
Bob Dorough (Crab Man)
Pat Moran Quartet (Pat Moran McCoy, John Doling, Johnny Whited, Bev Kelly)

The recording used an integrated cast, which in 1956 was quite controversial.



> Wikipedia article
> 
> This 1956 recording based on George Gershwin's opera Porgy and Bess was the second "complete" recording of the opera after the 1951 version, and the first recording of the work to feature jazz singers and musicians instead of operatic singers and a classical orchestra.
> 
> Russell Garcia arranged Gershwin's work for the Bethlehem Orchestra, the Duke Ellington Orchestra, the Australian Jazz Quintet, the Pat Moran Quartet and the Stan Levey Group. Mel Tormé sang the role of Porgy and Frances Faye the role of Bess. The Ellington Orchestra plays "Summertime" as the overture, but does not appear elsewhere on the album.


Other prominent Jazz versions include ones by *Miles Davis*, the *Modern Jazz Quartet*, *Oscar Peterson* did it twice, and *Ella Fitzgerald* and *Louis Armstrong*, as well as *Pearl Bailey*.

The opera produced several songs which have entered the consciousness of the America people, "Summertime", "It Ain't Necessarily So", "I've Got Plenty of Nuthin'", "My Man's Gone Now", and others. The score is a mix of influences: Jazz, Puccini, and popular song forms. I especially admire how Gershwin handled the recitatives.

The work has rightfully been hailed as the Great America Opera, and will no doubt continue to be staged and recorded because of the inherent quality of the music and timelessness of the story.


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## JTS (Sep 26, 2021)

amfortas said:


> Again, you're talking about an entirely different set of historical and cultural circumstances. Black and white are not simply the interchangeable colors of chess pieces.
> 
> Over the years, planned productions of the opera have been cancelled and/or seriously impeded precisely because of an inability to find African American singers willing to perform it.
> 
> How many fishermen condemn Peter Grimes as an offensive misrepresentation and appropriation of their culture? (It's a real question: I honestly don't know).


Sorry but you fail to apply the logic that theatre is people pretending to be what they are not. The whole thing about 'culture' is actually only a red herring. There is no more logical reason for someone to be offended by Porgy than by Wozzek or Grimes.


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## fbjim (Mar 8, 2021)

JTS said:


> Sorry but you fail to apply the logic that theatre is people pretending to be what they are not. The whole thing about 'culture' is actually only a red herring. There is no more logical reason for someone to be offended by Porgy than by Wozzek or Grimes.


No, but there are historical reasons for this.

Regardless I don't think there's much doubt that Gershwin's heart was in the right place, and despite the argumentation of the results, simple decency does mean a lot to me.


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## amfortas (Jun 15, 2011)

JTS said:


> Sorry but you fail to apply the logic that theatre is people pretending to be what they are not. The whole thing about 'culture' is actually only a red herring. There is no more logical reason for someone to be offended by Porgy than by Wozzek or Grimes.


There's no logical reason for the entire history of racism. But such a history exists, nonetheless, and we live with that legacy.


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## fbjim (Mar 8, 2021)

I would also like to say that "artistic slumming", sometimes called "poverty porn" where serious aspects of impoverished life are used as nothing more than aesthetic effect can also be just as off-putting. Generally I dislike it when issues of serious import, especially involving human suffering, are used for pure shock value, or- even worse- to give a work a sense of importance.

I see none of this in Porgy and Bess, for as much as my opinion matters. I think it's a very humanist work, as much as it dwells in a milieu that was foreign to Gershwin's life.


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

JTS said:


> Sorry but you fail to apply the logic that theatre is people pretending to be what they are not. The whole thing about 'culture' is actually only a red herring. There is no more logical reason for someone to be offended by Porgy than by Wozzek or Grimes.


I loathe to join this discussion but will to make one point: cultural influence does not adhere to racial boundaries. I grew up in North Louisiana where there was a majority Black population. We generally listened to the same music, although there were different radio stations, I and many of my friends chose to listen to the "Black" station. New York City is a polyglot society, with hundreds of different ethnic and racial groups living in neighboring communities.

Gershwin's style was a product of his Jewish background, which shares many of the same stylistic aspects with Black Jazz (If you compare Klezmer and Early Jazz you will hear similarities) and his native American musical genius. It is no accident that a majority of Tin Pan Alley songwriters were Jewish.

The music of the United States is a blend of Black, White, Latino, and other cultures - one cannot engage with American music without confronting this reality. A charge of cultural appropriation would seem to be hard to document, even one were intellectually honest. I am not aware that African American composers who write in a European classical style have been called out for cultural appropriation.


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

fbjim said:


> I would also like to say that "artistic slumming", sometimes called "poverty porn" where serious aspects of impoverished life are used as nothing more than aesthetic effect can also be just as off-putting. Generally I dislike it when issues of serious import, especially involving human suffering, are used for pure shock value, or- even worse- to give a work a sense of importance.
> 
> I see none of this in Porgy and Bess, for as much as my opinion matters. I think it's a very humanist work, as much as it dwells in a milieu that was foreign to Gershwin's life.


It wasn't foreign to South Carolinian Dubose Heywood's life, where the play/libretto originated. Describing Heyward's achievement in Porgy, the African-American poet and playwright Langston Hughes said Heyward was one who saw "with his white eyes, wonderful, poetic qualities in the inhabitants of Catfish Row that makes them come alive."


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## amfortas (Jun 15, 2011)

SanAntone said:


> I am not aware that African American composers who write in a European classical style have been called out for cultural appropriation.


Not. The. Same. Thing.


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## fbjim (Mar 8, 2021)

"appropriation" is one of those terms like "orientalism", "privilege", "gatekeeping" et al which had a useful definition in academia that was distorted to unusability when leaving that sphere. 

In any case I tend to care about the context and intent of the artist more than anything. When I hear the "black tunes" in the New World, the fact that Dvorak put those melodies in a symphony is less important than how he treats them-how after being introduced, the "swing low" theme is not used as ethnic color, but as a integral part of the work, played at full force by the orchestra in the same way as any theme from an European composer, implicitly placing them on the same level of validity.


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## amfortas (Jun 15, 2011)

fbjim said:


> "appropriation" is one of those terms like "orientalism", "privilege", "gatekeeping" et al which had a useful definition in academia that was distorted to unusability when leaving that sphere.


Since the phenomena themselves exist outside of academia, it seems only fitting the terminology be used more widely. Of course, as with any terminology, there will always be debate about when and how it's applied.


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## fbjim (Mar 8, 2021)

amfortas said:


> Since the phenomena themselves exist outside of academia, it seems only fitting the terminology be used more widely. Of course, as with any terminology, there will always be debate about when and how it's applied.


They do, but the general pattern I see is that the definition is broadened to be overly encompassing and the term gains moral judgements which did not necessarily exist in its original context.

Apart from the entire debate on language subjectivity, I do think it's a known phenomenon when terms effectively become unusable in serious discussion because too much disagreement has seeped in regarding when it should be used. "gatekeeping", for instance, specifically referred to institutional power- churches having an effective monopoly on literacy and publishing, for instance. Now it just gets thrown around for any reason whatsoever.

In any case I think this is a bit of a digression


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## amfortas (Jun 15, 2011)

fbjim said:


> In any case I think this is a bit of a digression


Agreed. 
xxxxxxxxxxxx


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## Neo Romanza (May 7, 2013)

Do I like Gerswhin? Absolutely! _Rhapsody in Blue_, _An American in Paris_, the _Piano Concerto_, _Porgy and Bess_ et. al. are all masterpieces, IMHO. One of the more remarkable "crossover" composers for sure. He did it with style, eloquence, sophistication and, most of all, beauty.


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## JTS (Sep 26, 2021)

SanAntone said:


> I loathe to join this discussion but will to make one point: cultural influence does not adhere to racial boundaries. I grew up in North Louisiana where there was a majority Black population. We generally listened to the same music, although there were different radio stations, I and many of my friends chose to listen to the "Black" station. New York City is a polyglot society, with hundreds of different ethnic and racial groups living in neighboring communities.
> 
> Gershwin's style was a product of his Jewish background, which shares many of the same stylistic aspects with Black Jazz (If you compare Klezmer and Early Jazz you will hear similarities) and his native American musical genius. It is no accident that a majority of Tin Pan Alley songwriters were Jewish.
> 
> The music of the United States is a blend of Black, White, Latino, and other cultures - one cannot engage with American music without confronting this reality. A charge of cultural appropriation would seem to be hard to document, even one were intellectually honest. I am not aware that African American composers who write in a European classical style have been called out for cultural appropriation.


Just on that note we can also say that the Great African-American singers like Leontyne Price who sing roles like Tosca and Carmen and Lenore have not been called out for cultural appropriation or whatever.


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

JTS said:


> Just on that note we can also say that the Great African-American singers like Leontyne Price who sing roles like Tosca and Carmen and Lenore have not been called out for cultural appropriation or whatever.


The "cultural appropriation" fanaticism is an outgrowth of the Project 1619 mentality of revisionist historiography run amok. I am the first to cite the ravages of imperialism and colonialism, and have been ridiculed on TC for my "wokeness"  - so I am sensitive to the arguments.

However, what I see also is an overreach when they attack Mark Twain or Gershwin. It is both anachronistic as well as superficial criticism, painting with too broad a brush vastly disparate artifacts, as well as uneven in application. And plenty of African Americans have embraced _Porgy & Bess_, although there have been some who have not. It is complicated, but I don't see it as fatal to the work.

I would hope that *amfortas* will rest easy that he has made his points and will have the magnanimity to allow this thread to continue beyond this one issue.


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## fbjim (Mar 8, 2021)

Although there certainly are individual works which can be "guilty", I think the larger concern is the wider pattern of popular music development in the United States, which frequently consisted of white artists receiving acclaim and making profit for emulating black music, who frequently remained unpaid and unknown. I tend to see this, however, as a larger scale institutional problem with the popular music industry (especially in the early days of recorded music), rather than something that a bunch of bad actor artists engaged in.

Certainly art would be worse off if we decided that everyone ought to stay in their lanes.


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## fbjim (Mar 8, 2021)

Just one followup, and apologies for continuing this -

If there's a mistake nowadays it's ascribing these sorts of institutional problems to individuals. Certainly there are instances where this can be appropriate - I doubt anyone would want to minimize the actions of- sorry to bring this up- James Levine as simply a cog in a machine. But I do believe intent matters a lot, and tarring good faith art with the same brush as art which is blatantly opportunist* doesn't do much to improve our appreciation of either art, or the social history of art.




*and even some of the opportunist stuff can be exciting!


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## amfortas (Jun 15, 2011)

JTS said:


> Just on that note we can also say that the Great African-American singers like Leontyne Price who sing roles like Tosca and Carmen and Lenore have not been called out for cultural appropriation or whatever.


Historically, casting has not been color blind. There was a time, not that long ago, when influential critics like John Simon objected to casting black or Hispanic actors in Shakespeare. Going further back, Charles Lamb even claimed that it would be horrible to cast a black actor as Othello; it was fine to *imagine* the character as black, but "the actual sight of thing," i.e., a black man embracing a white woman, would be too loathsome to present on the stage. As for opera, Leontyne Price herself was able to enjoy her stellar career only because of the struggles of singers before her like Marian Anderson, who were denied such opportunities.

As for appropriation, once again, it's not the same thing. No singer has ever been denied the chance to play Tosca or Carmen or Leonore simply because she was white, so Leontyne Price assuming those roles doesn't detract from anyone else's opportunity.


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## amfortas (Jun 15, 2011)

SanAntone said:


> I would hope that *amfortas* will rest easy that he has made his points and will have the magnanimity to allow this thread to continue beyond this one issue.


The thread has never been restricted to this one issue, and if that issue has taken center stage, it's because people have continued responding to one another. But if you'd prefer to have the last word, be my guest.


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## JTS (Sep 26, 2021)

amfortas said:


> Historically, casting has not been color blind. There was a time, not that long ago, when influential critics like John Simon objected to casting black or Hispanic actors in Shakespeare. Going further back, Charles Lamb even claimed that it would be horrible to cast a black actor as Othello; it was fine to *imagine* the character as black, but "the actual sight of thing," i.e., a black man embracing a white woman, would be too loathsome to present on the stage. As for opera, Leontyne Price herself was able to enjoy her stellar career only because of the struggles of singers before her like Marian Anderson, who were denied such opportunities.
> 
> *As for appropriation, once again, it's not the same thing*. No singer has ever been denied the chance to play Tosca or Carmen or Leonore simply because she was white, so *Leontyne Price assuming those roles doesn't detract from anyone else's opportunity*.


Of course it is the same thing. What if a Spanish or French singer complains that Ms Price singing Carmen detracts from her chance of getting the role? A point made very forcibly by social commentator Douglas Murray that it is just because the same standards are not applied.


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

amfortas said:


> Historically, casting has not been color blind. There was a time, not that long ago, when influential critics like John Simon objected to casting black or Hispanic actors in Shakespeare. Going further back, Charles Lamb even claimed that it would be horrible to cast a black actor as Othello; it was fine to *imagine* the character as black, but "the actual sight of thing," i.e., a black man embracing a white woman, would be too loathsome to present on the stage. As for opera, Leontyne Price herself was able to enjoy her stellar career only because of the struggles of singers before her like Marian Anderson, who were denied such opportunities.
> 
> As for appropriation, once again, it's not the same thing. No singer has ever been denied the chance to play Tosca or Carmen or Leonore simply because she was white, so Leontyne Price assuming those roles doesn't detract from anyone else's opportunity.


Placido Domingo famously made _Otello_ one of his signature roles, played in blackface. But _Porgy & Bess_ is cast using only Black singers. Your complaint should not be with _Porgy & Bess_ but with the casting practices that denied black singers opportunities, not against the one opera which explicitly created them.


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## amfortas (Jun 15, 2011)

JTS said:


> Of course it is the same thing. What if a Spanish or French singer complains that Ms Price singing Carmen detracts from her chance of getting the role? A point made very forcibly by social commentator Douglas Murray that it is just because the same standards are not applied.


Any time a singer is cast in a role, it detracts from other singers who wanted the part. But are you saying Price was cast over other singers *because* she was black, and not based on merit? I don't think that's a tenable argument, given both her extraordinary talent and the racial barriers that still existed in her day.

As for the current situation and Douglas Murray, there's been at least one thread devoted to that already, so I won't rehash it here.


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## amfortas (Jun 15, 2011)

SanAntone said:


> Placido Domingo famously made _Otello_ one of his signature roles, played in blackface. But _Porgy & Bess_ is cast using only Black singers. Your complaint should not be with _Porgy & Bess_ but with the casting practices that denied black singers opportunities, not against the one opera which explicitly created them.


OK, so I lied about the last word thing, but that's what you get for drawing me in.

If you look back over my comments, you'll see I haven't complained about _Porgy and Bess_ at all. I think it's great. I've simply pointed out that many people over the years, including a significant number of African Americans, haven't seen the work in an equally positive light, for understandable reasons. Similarly, I've always admired Domingo's _Otello_, and take no personal offense at him playing the role in blackface, but I can understand why others may have a problem with it.

I don't see these issues as simple or clear-cut. I just maintain that they are, in fact, issues.


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## fluteman (Dec 7, 2015)

Captainnumber36 said:


> I'm not the biggest fan, but I do have respect for what he tried to do.


Yes, he is my composer now. He is, he is.


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

amfortas said:


> OK, so I lied about the last word thing, but that's what you get for drawing me in.
> 
> If you look back over my comments, you'll see I haven't complained about _Porgy and Bess_ at all. I think it's great. I've simply pointed out that many people over the years, including a significant number of African Americans, haven't seen the work in an equally positive light, for understandable reasons. Similarly, I've always admired Domingo's _Otello_, and take no personal offense at him playing the role in blackface, but I can understand why others may have a problem with it.
> 
> I don't see these issues as simple or clear-cut. I just maintain that they are, in fact, issues.


Okay. So now can we get back to a general discussion about George Gershwin's music?


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

^I've thought of posting this in the thread <horrible album covers>


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

George Gershwin's other opera, a little one act gem:

*George Gershwin* - _Blue Monday_ (135th Street Blues)


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## amfortas (Jun 15, 2011)

SanAntone said:


> Okay. So now can we get back to a general discussion about George Gershwin's music?


Now, as before, you can discuss whatever you like.


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## JTS (Sep 26, 2021)

Post deleted...............


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

A classic -

_Ella Fitzgerald Sings the George and Ira Gershwin Song Book_ is a box set by American jazz singer *Ella Fitzgerald* that contains songs by *George* and *Ira Gershwin* with arrangements by *Nelson Riddle*.










I remember having this set on vinyl and just wearing it out. Nelson Riddle's arangements take this kind of popular song orchestration to a hgih level of artistry.


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## jegreenwood (Dec 25, 2015)

SanAntone said:


> A classic -
> 
> _Ella Fitzgerald Sings the George and Ira Gershwin Song Book_ is a box set by American jazz singer *Ella Fitzgerald* that contains songs by *George* and *Ira Gershwin* with arrangements by *Nelson Riddle*.
> 
> ...


My dad had three of the albums on vinyl. (It was originally released as a five disc set, pretty expensive for popular music in the late 50s.) I had a cassette with 90+ minutes of the music. And then I bought the three CD set.


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## Rogerx (Apr 27, 2018)

I am spinning this one at the moment , love it.


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## JTS (Sep 26, 2021)

Rogerx said:


> I am spinning this one at the moment , love it.


Have you read 'No Minor Chords' about Previn's years in Hollywood ? Really fun read! Great musician! That is a terrific performance!


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## mikeh375 (Sep 7, 2017)

JTS said:


> Have you read 'No Minor Chords' about Previn's years in Hollywood ? Really fun read! Great musician! That is a terrific performance!


Yes, a good read, especially the tale about him leaving a girl's apartment only to be met on the stairs by his friend Errol Flyyn who was also about to see the same girl. They laughed and went for dinner, Flynn foregoing his tryst.


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

JTS said:


> Have you read 'No Minor Chords' about Previn's years in Hollywood ? Really fun read! Great musician! That is a terrific performance!


That sounds interesting....have you ever read his book "Orchestra"?? that's a great read, too...lots of anecdotes, insights, on Previn's experiences in London, etc...


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## christomacin (Oct 21, 2017)

Pachelbel composed several chaconnes for organ which are masterful.


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

christomacin said:


> Pachelbel composed several chaconnes for organ which are masterful.




What does this have to do with Gershwin?


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## Bwv 1080 (Dec 31, 2018)

Speaking of minor,

Is there a better counterexample of minor=sad than Summertime? (and who else ever wrote a lullaby in a minor key?)


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

Bwv 1080 said:


> Speaking of minor,
> 
> Is there a better counterexample of minor=sad than Summertime? (and who else ever wrote a lullaby in a minor key?)


Summertime is great.


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## 59540 (May 16, 2021)

Bwv 1080 said:


> Speaking of minor,
> 
> Is there a better counterexample of minor=sad than Summertime? (and who else ever wrote a lullaby in a minor key?)


The folk lullaby "All the Pretty Little Horses". I've never thought "Summertime" is a particularly happy song.


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## FrankinUsa (Aug 3, 2021)

Yes. I enjoy Gershwin


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

Bwv 1080 said:


> Is there a better counterexample of minor=sad than Summertime?


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## Rogerx (Apr 27, 2018)

Captainnumber36 said:


> Summertime is great.







Summertime · Louis Armstrong · Ella Fitzgerald

Porgy And Bess

Specially this one Captain .:tiphat:


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