# How well did Saint Saens and Bizet know each other?



## clavichorder (May 2, 2011)

I'm curious if anyone knows anything about communications between the two composers. I'm also curious about how connected they were to their other contemporary countrymen, like Faure or Chabrier. I know Saint Saens and Faure were friends. 

It's interesting to compare two precocious symphonies of Bizet and Saint Saens. The Symphony in C by Bizet was composed a little later, but is leaner than the Saint Saens Symphony 1 in E flat, which takes after Mendelssohn.


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## Anankasmo (Jun 23, 2017)

Hmm indeed their first two symphonys are rather different. While S-S modeled his after Mendelssohn, Bizet took his teachers symphony as a model (he had transcribed Gounods symphony for piano).
Both symphonies are marvelous in the S-S symphony the first and second movement is especially gorgeous while Bizets has a beautiful slow movement.

I have a few S-S bios and this is what i found regarding S-S relationships with other composers:

*Faure*: Although being just about ten years younger Faure acknowledged S-S as his teacher and prime influence on his compositional style. He said that through S-S his discovered modern music (Chopin, Schumann but also Bach etc.) which was not taught at the Paris Conservatoire. They held contact trough countless letters and as S-S grew older and had lost his children he became something if a "uncle" for Faures kids. Even Faures wife wrote that they constantly talk about S-S at home.

*Gounod*: S-S was much admired by Gounod and both composers were friends. Saint-Saëns helped Gounod e.g by transcribing pieces out of the latters operas. Gounod instead reviewed S-S early works quite favourably.

*Massenet*: They saw each other as rivals, each of them occupying predominantly a musical field in France. S-S was the absolute master of instrumental music in France while Massenet was the great opera composers. S-S who always wanted to achieve more success in the opera was a bit envious of Massenet. Ironically Samson et Dalila is probably more famous than any Massenet opera. But their relationship was actually healthy i think e.g. Saint-Saëns made an opera paraphrase on Massenets Thaïs Mediatation for piano which he played in one of his jubilary concerts. Still S-S was rather rough around the edges. This is best shown by the letter he sent back to Massenet regarding the appointment of a new Conservatory professor. S-S as well as Massenwt were candidates and the school decided for Massenet. Massenet immediately sent a letter to S-S saying that the Conservatoire had made a great mistake in order to befriend S-S, but S-S simple wrote back "you are right" 

*Andre Messager*: Also one of Saint-Saëns pupils and ardent admirer.

*Gabriel Pierne*: Great fan of Saint-Saëns. He even wrote a piano concerto which is so much modeled after S-S famous second that it can almost be called a fake.

*Reynaldo Hahn*: He once remarked around the turn to the 20th century that it is a shame that one can not express his admiration for S-S anymore since he is the public enemy of the Modernist movement: He said: "Nowadays it takes courage to admire Monsieur Saint-Saëns"

*Louis Vierne*: He thanked S-S for rescuing french sacred music. This statement is to be taken true since it was common practice to play opera melodies during services. Something S-S abolished, also he wrote many sacred works emphasizing the holiness of the church instead of incorporating popular secular music. His requiem is beautiful as well as his Oratorio de Noël and his Mass.

*Berlioz*: He was an early advocate of S-S. When listening to S-S first symphony he famously remarked that the composer who wanted to remain anonymous was perfect but lacked inexperience. They had a personal relationship and Berlioz and Saint-Saëns worked together to publish a revision of the complete works of Gluck (?). So apperently their scholarly interests coincided.

*Guilmant*: He transcribed many S-S works for organ such as the Swan and Le Deluges Prelude.

*d'Indy*: Both were contrahents in terms of musical theory. But their letter exchange was always really polite and never unjust.

*Franck*: Saint-Saëns didnt like his music and even left the stage after he had given the premiere of a chamber work of Franck dedicated to him so i guess their relationships was not too great.

*Bizet*: S-S admired the operas of Bizet and he saw him and Bizet as brothers in arms. Saint-Saens La princesse jaune and Bizets Djamileh were produced togehther and staged on the same evening. When S-S heart of Bizets death he was shaken quite much and later in life he thought of Carmen as one of the greatest cultural achievements of France. Bizet was an admirer of S-S music for he transcribed e.g the piano concerto 2 for piano solo or rondo capriccioso for piano and violin duet.

*Ravel*: Ravel had his fair share of bad thing to say about S-S but in the end he acknowledged his genius and even looked back to S-S in his piano concertos. H eince said to Arthur Rubinstein that he learned all the secrets of orchestration trouh reading the score of the second piano concerto by Saint-Saëns.

*Debussy*: Super critical of S-S but in his youth he transcribed e.g Rondo cappriccioso for two pianos.

All in all i think everyone had his opinion on Saint-Saëns since he was so predominant in France for almost a 3/4 century but all had to acknowledge his genius and place in history. One has to say that S-S was not a very friendly man when fighting for his opinions regarding music, something which brought him many enemies. But as a man he was much loved and had many friends and benefactors.


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## Anankasmo (Jun 23, 2017)

As i have seen trough a few Saint-Saëns threads i saw your name pop up quite much, may i ask what Saint-Saëns works you like??


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## clavichorder (May 2, 2011)

Thanks for the information, Anankasmo. 

I like his piano concertos 2-5, particularly 4. I recently discovered the 3rd, and was pleasantly surprised. I like the Violin Concerto 3, and Symphony 3. Symphony 1 is nice as you say.


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## Anankasmo (Jun 23, 2017)

You are welcome 

Hmm indeed his 3rd piano concerto is great especially the second movement imo. Feels almost impressionistic. I wonder if you have listened to S-S first piano concerto. It is imo as great as the famous 2nd or 5th.

I would also recommend his 2nd cello concerto. Rather difficult to get but all the more rewarding.


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