# Imprinting and Escaping the Imprint



## MatthewWeflen (Jan 24, 2019)

As I have acquired additional recordings of favorite works (especially Beethoven and Sibelius cycles, but also Dvorak, Mendelssohn, and Bach) I have been giving a lot of thought to imprinting.

It occurs to me that it is obvious imprinting happens. It happens for anything. Music, movies, clam chowder, sex. We get used to what we first experience regularly.

With music, what do you think is the primary feature (or features) of imprinting? Is it tempo? Volume? Particular sounds that you can pick out? Is it something more abstract, like being a "convincing" interpretation?

Is imprinting a good or bad thing?

What are the recordings that you have been imprinted by? Why were these so impressive? Were they always the first recordings, or did they come after others?

Which recordings have you successfully shaken the imprinting of? To what do you attribute the difference/change in your preferences?

For me, one set that has completely imprinted me is Karajan's 77 Beethoven cycle. I have about a dozen alternatives, some of which I admire greatly (such as Gardiner's or Fischer's cycles), but that still leave me wanting in comparison. The tempii feel right, the quality of the sound is what I'm looking for. But would I have been imprinted by Gardiner if I had listened to it 20 times first? Probably.

One set that I have shaken the imprinting of is the Brandenburg Concertos. I started with Karajan's, because I owned a box set (my initial deep dive into CM was a Karajan box set). They were fine. It was what I was used to. But people kept singing the praises of Bach, and it just left me feeling "meh." So I bought Trevor Pinnock's Bach Box. Whatever imprinting my initial experience had done was obliterated. Pinnock's Bach is my standard, now. I attribute this to the clarity of sound. I can pick out so many other things in the mix that were obscured by Karajan's plush sound world. Pinnick's Bach has me feeling like I "get it."

In the latter case, I do feel like it also had to do with being "convincing." Pinnock convinced me completely, while Karajan left me with a proverbial question mark over my head. I suppose the same is true with Beethoven, in reverse.


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

I rarely go for multiple versions of the same work (except Mahler, and a few others), but when I do, I also find that the first one I bought is often for me "the best" - especially for works that involve singing. Some examples:

Mahler 4. I have about 50 versions (Yeah, I'm nuts), but if I could keep just one, it would be the first (Haitink/Ameling).
Mahler Das Lied von der Erde. Another one with about 50 versions, but still the best is Klemperer/Wunderlich/Ludwig (well, except for the sound).
Bach's St. Matthew Passion. I have about half a dozen versions, but I would keep the Richter (my first) if I was allowed only one choice.
Schubert's Winterreise. I have about half a dozen versions, but I would keep the DFD/Brendel (my first) if I was allowed only one choice.

I think it is because the first time we hear what will become a personal favourite, indeed that performance is associated in our brain with the high standing the piece is getting in our list of personal favourites.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

There's something called identity thinking -- this is from Scott Burnham's book _Beethoven Hero_ (Princeton 1995, p164)



> Why do we keep listening to our favourite musics?. . . . Do
> we really return to experierlce the music we value in the hope
> and expectation of hearing something new each time? On
> the contrary, l believe we return because we hear nearly the
> ...


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## Allegro Con Brio (Jan 3, 2020)

There are some works that captivated me and inspired very strong emotional reactions the very first time I heard them in my days of getting into CM, and which release floods of delightful nostalgia every time I hear them: Schubert's Trout Quintet, Beethoven's Heiliger Dankgesang, the Bruckner 7 Adagio, the final climax of Mahler's 2nd just to name a few. As far as performances go, the first one I heard is almost _never_ my favorite nowadays. Harnoncourt's Beethoven? Gould's Bach? Now among my least favorite performances. The only exception is Klemperer's St. Matthew Passion, which I binged on and now am brainwashed into old-school Bach. But lately I've been comparing some St. Matt recordings and have found some good things in a handful of HIPster approaches.


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## Triplets (Sep 4, 2014)

Imprinting is common. Dozens of works are imprinted in my brain for better or worse by certain recordings


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## Strange Magic (Sep 14, 2015)

The power of imprinting is such that, when I hear my favorite pieces performed other than my imprinted favorites and it seems to wander too far afield, I often think "This sounds wrong". I do not consider it in any way a problem.


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## BachIsBest (Feb 17, 2018)

I find this runs counter to my experiences; most of my favourite recordings are not the first ones I ever heard. Some are, but I can't say I've noticed a distinct preference for the first one.


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## DaddyGeorge (Mar 16, 2020)

BachIsBest said:


> I find this runs counter to my experiences; most of my favourite recordings are not the first ones I ever heard. Some are, but I can't say I've noticed a distinct preference for the first one.


So do I. Maybe there is no such recording for me.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

I've rarely had a special attachment to my first recording of anything, although sometimes one of those has remained a favorite. I became aware very early on that interpretations could vary greatly, and I typically tried to imagine what a piece of music "should" sound like, regardless of what I was actually hearing. Often it would lead to dissatisfaction with all available recordings. In later life I'm less concerned with finding the definitive interpretation of anything and more pleased by original takes on familiar pieces, provided that they're well conceived and convincing.


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## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

Imprinting to me is when I get so used to a work, that most versions seem to go through the motions. Examples I mentioned before, is Mozart's Jupiter, Mendelssohn's Violin Concerto, Vivaldi's 4 seasons and many others. I look for an interpretation that breathes life and disrupts the imprintation in my memory of these works I know too well. As mentioned, Britten's and Tate's Mozart Jupiter, Isaac Stern's Mendelssohn. These versions are set apart in my mind from imprinting. Heifetz's Bruch concerto on RCA is also great. With pianists, I find Sviatoslav Richter brings something that escapes imprinting. No one plays Prokofiev's 7th Sonata like him to my ears (I find the Pollini, as highly-praised as it is, pretty forgettable).


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## Guest002 (Feb 19, 2020)

Two examples spring to mind:

I remember recording Britten's Midsummer Night's Dream to tape cassette, as a schoolboy. In order to do so, I had to break it at a certain rather awkward point mid-scene, and continue it over on the other side of the tape from an equally awkward point. Forty years later, I still expect to hear the pause thus induced by my poor cassette technique, even though I've been listening to it on CD (and thus break-less) for most of the time ever since.

Iona Brown's and George Malcom's recording of the Poulenc Organ Concerto. For some unknown reason, my copy of it (on CD) had a distinct "wobble" at a certain point, introduced (it sounded like) by someone momentarily touching the master tape at the time of the transfer. I've since bought re-masters that lack the tape-touching-moment... but my brain feels like it's missing out on something! The anticipation of its arrival is still there, and a certain disappointment that it's no longer there still happens.

I hate imprinting. As others have said, it can be a real barrier to appreciating different recordings of a familiar piece. But it's definitely real for me, at least!


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## Fabulin (Jun 10, 2019)

I have no such prejudice.


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## jegreenwood (Dec 25, 2015)

My best example is the Schubert String Quintet. To this day, it ranks in my top 5 favorite musical works (quite possibly No. 1). But my imprint version was an outlier - Heifetz, Piatigorsky. They race through it so fast, it's like they have exciting plans for the evening.

It took me a while to overcome this. It happened when I switched from LPs to CDs. The Heifetz was not released in that format for some time. I picked up the Alban Berg Quartet recording, which was the first one I saw in the new format. I didn't get it at first, but repeated listenings converted me. Then came the famous Casals recording. It wasn't until years later that I picked up the Heifetz on CD. I listened to it once and decided to keep it for the sake of nostalgia. I have several other recordings, but the ABQ and Casals are the ones I play the most.


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## larold (Jul 20, 2017)

If you want to "defeat" an imprint try multiple versions of what imprinted on you.

One of the first recordings I owned age 22 or so was the Bach Orchestral Suites directed by Casals on Columbia LPs. After trying at least 50 other recordings and hearing the suites played in concert for almost 50 years the Casals' is the only integral set in my collection today.

I first heard Karajan's London Also Sprach Zarathustra after A Space Odyssey used it and listened to it a long time. However, around 1980, I heard the St. Louis Symphony/Susskind recording. I've not liked another as much since.

The Stokowski Tchaikovsky 5th symphony on London imprinted on me later ... but the Gergiev recording later surpassed it for my affection. I don't listen to the symphony any longer.

At the same time I started I had Bernstein's Beethoven 5th symphony ... and tried many later over the decades. Today I don't play that music any longer. I have overplayed it and it lost its message to me.

I learned the Bruckner 5th symphony by listening to about 25 versions of it. I enjoyed Horenstein's the most but found a few others that were almost as good. Now I listen to a couple versions and continue to try to find a favorite among the new ones that come out. I'd love to have heard this music in concert -- even on a radio broadcast -- but never have seen it scheduled.

Some recordings imprint, some don't, and some wear out their welcome. Another way to defeat an imprint is to simply move onto other music: quit listening to the imprint version a month or a year and see what happens. It may not be the same when you come back to it.

Or listen to it until you are sick of it.


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## MatthewWeflen (Jan 24, 2019)

dizwell said:


> Two examples spring to mind:
> 
> I remember recording Britten's Midsummer Night's Dream to tape cassette, as a schoolboy. In order to do so, I had to break it at a certain rather awkward point mid-scene, and continue it over on the other side of the tape from an equally awkward point. Forty years later, I still expect to hear the pause thus induced by my poor cassette technique, even though I've been listening to it on CD (and thus break-less) for most of the time ever since.
> 
> ...


I listened to "Appalachian Spring" on a CD-to-tape cassette as a kid as well. There was some sort of skip at one point, and I always expect it to be there


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## Simplicissimus (Feb 3, 2020)

I imprinted on a number of pieces of CM when I was younger, but only when I really liked them. I guess it's obvious that imprinting doesn't occur unless you like the music well enough to give it the attention required in order for it to imprint. During a "critical period" in my late teens and 20s, I listened to a lot of CM and some recordings definitely imprinted. Very few have done so for me after about the age of 40.

The imprinted pieces do not lead me to reject other interpretations. I seldom hear a performance that I actually like better than the imprinted one, but it does happen occasionally. In general, I think the imprinting helps me enjoy new interpretations more by giving me a point of reference.

One example that informs me about how imprinting works for me is the Brahms Piano Concerto No. 1. As a child and teenager, I heard my father play the Rubinsein (with Reiner/CSO) recording pretty often, and it didn't particularly engage me. Then, when I was about 30 years old, I was visiting a friend who played me the Arrau (Haitink/Concertgebouw) recording and it blew me away. Ever since then I have really liked the piece and that recording (which of course I bought subsequently) is definitely imprinted. Now when I listen to the Rubinstein version, I still really don't like it--though I do like Rubinstein in general. So, I conclude that it didn't imprint because I didn't like it. Now, when I hear performances of the piece I've never heard before, it is possible for me to like them as much as, or even more than, the Arrau version, but usually I don't like them as well. I don't feel like the imprinted version impairs my ability to apprehend the new performances own their own terms.


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## BlackAdderLXX (Apr 18, 2020)

This is me. I've been listening to I Musici 1969 Four Seasons for over 30 years. Many of the more modern recordings feel really fast now. I am listening to other versions though to try and appreciate something else.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

I think "imprinting" happens because it affects your identity. Your mind is growing, and a certain form of music hits it that stimulates its growth and development. That's why music is so important, especially for younger people.


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## Ethereality (Apr 6, 2019)

In my particular circumstance, imprinting happened long before I actually heard the music. I came to Beethoven first, he was my early love. But many years later upon hearing the works of Borodin, I quickly began to feel as though I found my past self from another life.


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## flamencosketches (Jan 4, 2019)

I seem to have imprinted badly on Bernstein's Mahler. There are other conductors I'm beginning to favor in Mahler's music, but every time I hear a Bernstein recording, it's like going home. I noticed this quite intensely with the 4th earlier.


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## Merl (Jul 28, 2016)

I dont really have a problem with imprinting. Imprints never held me back from prefering a different version. I still have a soft spot for many of my imprints but most have been bettered. The only one that for me that I've had problems bettering, from my imprints, is Sawallisch's Schumann cycle. It's as brilliant today as the day I bought it. I find imprinting more problematic with some of the rock bands I loved in my teens.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

flamencosketches said:


> I seem to have imprinted badly on Bernstein's Mahler. There are other conductors I'm beginning to favor in Mahler's music, but every time I hear a Bernstein recording, it's like going home. I noticed this quite intensely with the 4th earlier.


I don't have "bad" imprints. Imprints are always positive. Otherwise, they wouldn't leave a deep impression.


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## flamencosketches (Jan 4, 2019)

millionrainbows said:


> I don't have "bad" imprints. Imprints are always positive. Otherwise, they wouldn't leave a deep impression.


Yes, this is an example of a good imprint for me.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

Merl said:


> I dont really have a problem with imprinting. Imprints never held me back from prefering a different version. I still have a soft spot for many of my imprints but most have been bettered. The only one that for me that I've had problems bettering, from my imprints, is Sawallisch's Schumann cycle. It's as brilliant today as the day I bought it. I find imprinting more problematic with some of the rock bands I loved in my teens.


I don't regret any imprints, and still view each imprint as valid. Grand Funk Railroad is a good example; it's still good music, for the same reasons it always was, because it has a "primal essence" of truth (Remember, Frank Zappa produced one of their albums).

The reason some people here might regret imprinting, or try to escape them, is because they have developed a false, inflated ego since then. Remember, imprints are always valid.

That's me, anyway. I've always had impeccable taste. They told me I would "grow up" and change, but the things I loved back then are still valid. All of it, every single thing, even Hit Parader Magazine, The Dave Clark Five, and Peanuts comic strips (not the TV shows). There is still an exquisite subtlety to Charles Shultz' comic strips (of a certain year span, not the very early ones) which I still see.

With Bernstein, I imprinted on Charles Ives, as well as Mahler. You might say that, as a young man, he "seduced" me.


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## JAS (Mar 6, 2013)

This phenomenon may work differently in different people. I have not found it to be the case with my own listening, but perhaps it is true for others. I have often heard multiple recordings of various works, and sometimes I do prefer the first I heard, and other times one of the others. There is no pattern to my preference, other than my preferences tend to stand until I hear something I prefer more. In some cases, I have favorite parts of some performances. Sometimes, a newer recording has better sound, which gives it an advantage over a version I first heard long ago. In a few cases a performance may shine through, even with relatively poor sound. 

When I first started to collect recordings, I could not always afford to buy records. I borrowed many from the library, and taped the ones I liked best. The condition of those recordings was often terrible, and there are a few cases where I still remember a particularly obvious skip or crackle of the old recording, even though that would not be my preferred version today.

It may be something like the reverse of what I have often been told is a trick that salesmen of high end equipment use. The last equipment you hear tends to sound best, so they play the most expensive one last.


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## Ekim the Insubordinate (May 24, 2015)

It's an interesting notion. I do and don't agree with it, it is situational.

There are some recordings that definitely left an imprint on me - like Klemperer's Magic Flute. 

But then there are others that I first heard, but very readily abandoned when hearing something else. Pinnock was my first introduction to Bach's Brandenburg Concertos and Violin Concertos, but I never listen to them anymore. They were easily replaced.

I wonder if it requires a variety of factors to imprint, not just hearing a particular recording. Some other factor required, beyond just being the first of something you hear?

I should also say that initially, if I had an imprint for, say, Schoenberg, or any other modern (20th century) composers, it was to dislike them. But as I listened to more classical, my tastes broadened, and now there are quite a few works I enjoy. So I certainly don't think they are absolute.


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## Ethereality (Apr 6, 2019)

'Escaping the imprint' lies I suppose in just spending time with the item as you would have your established favorites: Once you gain some sort of base-level appreciation, then comes liking. The 'appreciation' comes after a few listens, while the 'liking' comes as a recalled memory of it later down the road.


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## adriesba (Dec 30, 2019)

This is something I think about often. Sometimes I tend to take other people's recommendations with a grain of salt since sometimes I wonder if they are imprinted, especially if they recommend something super obscure.

I used to imprint on performances a lot. It could be for various reasons, but for me it was usually tempo. Examples are Yablonsky's recording of _Alexander Nevsky_ and Welser-Möst's recording of _Carmina Burana_. Initially I was turned off to other recordings of those works, but not my favorite _Alexander Nevsky_ recording is the Abbado recording while my favorite Carmina _Burana_ recording is the Jochum recording. I still very much like those first ones I heard, but my preferences have changed from the imprinting.

I find that to avoid getting stuck on the first performance you hear you have to just listen to several other performances with an open mind. I can't think of any recent examples of me imprinting on a performance. I don't think it really happens to me anymore.


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

I think I can remember imprinting on my early recordings although even at the start I was given to using the library to hear more than one recording of some works. But all that was a long time ago. These days hearing a performance convincingly good but different to what I have heard before is a thrill for me and often what I go looking for with further purchases of mainstream repertoire. For many works having four or so top-choice (my top-choice) versions of a work is what I aim for with many works. There is no such thing as a right way for me with such works. Some works, though, don't seem to repay that dedication and I am left feeling there is really only one way to do it and it is just a matter of finding my favourite recording of that basic approach.


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## Ekim the Insubordinate (May 24, 2015)

I don't think imprinting is really that bad, in that, with only some extremely rare cases of objectively bad recordings, most preferences are just that - preferences. Imprinting, however it is established, loses its hold, I believe, the more you explore the repertoire. My first Bach was on modern instruments with modern performance practices. And I loved it for a long time. And then I discovered HIP recordings, and now that is my preference. 

Those initial imprints will still likely stick with you long time, and you may go back and return to them periodically (nostalgia?), but the more to which you expose yourself, the more those imprints matter.

I have very fond memories of a lot of the comedy movies I grew up with, especially in my teens. Those goofy, sometimes raunchy comedies of the 1980s. I thought they were hilarious. I go back now and watch them, though, and many are just unwatchable now, with only a few exceptions. I think many imprints keep a lasting impression on us because we don't go back to them that often to review whether we still feel the same. If we do, the really good ones may continue to justify their pride of place, while others we may find ourselves asking, "Hmm, I wonder why I loved this so much?"


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## Ekim the Insubordinate (May 24, 2015)

Enthusiast said:


> I think I can remember imprinting on my early recordings although even at the start I was given to using the library to hear more than one recording of some works. But all that was a long time ago. These days hearing a performance convincingly good but different to what I have heard before is a thrill for me and often what I go looking for with further purchases of mainstream repertoire. For many works having four or so top-choice (my top-choice) versions of a work is what I aim for with many works. There is no such thing as a right way for me with such works. Some works, though, don't seem to repay that dedication and I am left feeling there is really only one way to do it and it is just a matter of finding my favourite recording of that basic approach.


The library has been a fantastic resource for expanding my knowledge of classical music and exploring what I do and don't like. Luckily I live in the Columbus, OH area, and we have a fantastic library system that is all interconnected - I can get anything in any library shipped to my nearest library in New Albany. One of them in nearby Worthington has a magnificent classical collection that I will spend up to an hour just perusing. New recordings, old recordings that are out of print. I'm dying now that they are all closed.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

Ekim the Insubordinate said:


> I have very fond memories of a lot of the comedy movies I grew up with, especially in my teens. Those goofy, sometimes raunchy comedies of the 1980s. I thought they were hilarious. I go back now and watch them, though, and many are just unwatchable now, with only a few exceptions. I think many imprints keep a lasting impression on us because we don't go back to them that often to review whether we still feel the same. If we do, the really good ones may continue to justify their pride of place, while others we may find ourselves asking, "Hmm, I wonder why I loved this so much?"


That's because you didn't have impeccable taste to begin with, like me. If you did, none of your choices would be wrong, and you'd still like everything you liked back then.

Either that, or your new, developed "ego" is getting in the way, declaring these things to be "unwatchable." Oh, how the mighty have fallen.


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