# When does music become noise?



## LordBlackudder (Nov 13, 2010)

If music is an arrangement of sounds does this mean random sounds is noise?

So are composers like John Cage not musicians?

If some composers create music in protest against the traditional structure than does this mean by default it is not music?

I can listen to the sounds of the rain forest or the sea and maybe objects dropped on a piano but is this music?


----------



## Klavierspieler (Jul 16, 2011)

I agree with Schoenberg.

"Of course he's not a composer, but he's an inventor—of genius."


----------



## Kopachris (May 31, 2010)

Music becomes noise, IMO, when there is no discernible pattern to it.


----------



## chee_zee (Aug 16, 2010)

right around 1910.


----------



## Vesteralen (Jul 14, 2011)

One definition of music: "sounds arranged to produce an effect". By that definition, Cage is indeed a musician. 

Another definition: "sounds I like to listen to". By that definition, anyone you like to listen to is a musician. Anyone you don't, isn't.

A third definition: "any group of sounds produced under inspiration (the muse)". Won't touch that one.


----------



## Merve (Jun 7, 2012)

I think this is just a definition problem.

I'm an auditory scientist and what we call noise is either random (usually normal - loosely meaning evenly distributed) fluctuating sound created by recording error, or some sound signal with unexplained source. Noise does not carry any information.

Sound, is everything you hear. Music is sound, rain makes sound.

Music, is simply an art form that uses sound for expression. In the definition of music that I know, there is no requirement for "traditional structure". Perhaps you are confused because you are taking classical music as your scope. I can assure you that technical death metal or mathcore usually doesn't follow any traditional structure but complex and (to my ears) dissonant sounding structures. I indeed hear it as random noise because my untrained brain doesn't hear any structure in the sound. But they have a huge fanbase that disagrees with me.

So to your question "If some composers create music in protest against the traditional structure than does this mean by default it is not music?": no it certainly doesn't mean that.

I think a relevant point is that, if you were to think about it that way, you could hardly think of this: a






as art, but it (apparently ) is.

Your definition of "music" sounds more like "harmony" to me, although it's not even that, but closer.


----------



## KRoad (Jun 1, 2012)

When does music become noise? At precisely the point noise ceases to be music. It's all in the ears of the listener, I guess.


----------



## Tero (Jun 2, 2012)

When it's no longer entertainment to anyone. I was at a Chili Peppers concert. Due to the volume, it was 80-90 % noise to me.


----------



## Fugue (Apr 26, 2011)

When does music become noise? When Jessie J gets her hands on it.


----------



## LordBlackudder (Nov 13, 2010)

Merve said:


> I think this is just a definition problem.
> 
> I'm an auditory scientist and what we call noise is either random (usually normal - loosely meaning evenly distributed) fluctuating sound created by recording error, or some sound signal with unexplained source. Noise does not carry any information.
> 
> ...


If someone took the recording error sound you understand as noise and looped it, is it music?

Or perhaps 4 and a half minutes of silence? Is that music or accidental noise? What is the mic recording?


----------



## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

_When does music become noise?_

I think it's when your hearing can be damaged by it, or by repeated exposure to it. I'm not going to go into things like aesthetic value of this type of music (eg. _noise music_) as it's a can of worms around here, and in any case, ultimately subjective.

But talking to the hearing damage issue, here's a thought. Ask virtually any musician who works in an opera pit. Down there, the loud bits of opera sound like noise, cacophony. To people in the audience, it's music. In opera pits, if the acoustics are not good, it can be loud as a chainsaw at close range. Not kidding. It's not like an orchestra on stage in a concert where they have that kind of 'open space' around them. Specially made musician's earplugs are essential gear in opera pits, and even with that, I'd guess that hearing damage is an occupational health risk.

So I think if I was that up close and personal to things, esp. Romantic and Modern operas, I think I would just hate it, totally. It can be a matter of perception and context, in other words.


----------



## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

Kopachris said:


> Music becomes noise, IMO, when there is no discernible pattern to it.


Yes, or if it becomes too predictable. I did a thread on that below, citing a psychologist's opinion of this based on research. Most people on this forum agreed with that opinion re balance predictable and unpredictable in music. A related issue?

http://www.talkclassical.com/17622-balancing-predictable-surprising-music.html


----------



## Lenfer (Aug 15, 2011)

To me *John Cage* ins't just noise his work has it's highs and lows like everyone else. Although this time last year I would have said yes *John Cage* is not to my liking. My friends and others on *Talk Classical* have opened my eyes and ears somewhat and for that I'm grateful, I know longer jump to the just noise camp. However *Harpsichord Concerto* still frightens me a little in a good way. 

I was just checking my emails I'm going back to bed good night all. :tiphat:


----------



## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

When Wagner died and took all the inspiration with him.


----------



## Clementine (Nov 18, 2011)

I think the phrase "music to my ears" is a valuable one. I always become annoyed when people attempt to come up with concrete, universal definitions of music. I think it's entirely subjective, and if someone says that's "music to my ears" then that's their prerogative. How someone feels about sound is entirely up to them, and how someone defines music has absolutely no effect on me, so why should I care? If it's music to their ears, then more power to them. 

But to answer the question, all music is noise.


----------



## samurai (Apr 22, 2011)

Clementine said:


> I think the phrase "music to my ears" is a valuable one. I always become annoyed when people attempt to come up with concrete, universal definitions of music. I think it's entirely subjective, and if someone says that's "music to my ears" then that's their prerogative. How someone feels about sound is entirely up to them, and how someone defines music has absolutely no effect on me, so why should I care? If it's music to their ears, then more power to them.
> 
> But to answer the question, all music is noise.


 
Does the converse hold true, though, namely, is *all noise music*? I would answer in the negative.


----------



## Philip (Mar 22, 2011)

Clementine said:


> all music is noise.


all music is sound*


----------



## science (Oct 14, 2010)

Kopachris said:


> Music becomes noise, IMO, when there is no discernible pattern to it.


This is not a bad idea.

I'd say the difference between music and noise is intentionality. If someone produces sound intentionally for the pleasure of hearing it, I'd call that music. And if I enjoy it too, I'd call it good music.


----------



## Merve (Jun 7, 2012)

LordBlackudder said:


> If someone took the recording error sound you understand as noise and looped it, is it music?


If they say it is, it is. Just because I don't hear something in there, isn't the same as there being no information there whatsoever. Maybe they're hearing something I'm not. Maybe they like the "chaotic" feel of it. If that is how they want to express themselves, sure.



LordBlackudder said:


> Or perhaps 4 and a half minutes of silence? Is that music or accidental noise? What is the mic recording?


Silence is not music because in silence there is no sound.


----------



## Merve (Jun 7, 2012)

Sid James said:


> I think it's when your hearing can be damaged by it, or by repeated exposure to it.


I highly disagree with this because it implies that any sound, no matter what it is, below 100db is music. I'm sure everyone can agree that not any sound whatsoever is music.


----------



## Merve (Jun 7, 2012)

Kopachris said:


> Music becomes noise, IMO, when there is no discernible pattern to it.


The problem with this definition is just because one person cannot form a structure in the music, doesn't mean that "there is no discernible pattern to it". But if you want to look at it from a purely subjective point of view, then I agree completely with this.


----------



## Ravndal (Jun 8, 2012)

I belive that sound is music. I listen a lot to experimental and "noise" music, and i get so much from it. It's no point in defining music, since it's always subjective no matter what.


----------



## LordBlackudder (Nov 13, 2010)

As the judge presiding over this case I have heard from all sides.

I will now pass judgement on the accused Mr John Milton Cage.

- Noise depends on the context. If we take the piece 4:33 to some it is music. To a sound engineer it is noise on a recording. And to another it is sound effects, perhaps to get the room-noise or maybe to increase the volume and create an uneasy sound. And to a 4th person it might be just unpleasant ''noise''.

In Mr Cage's case it is presented as music. An arrangement of nature. I'm sure we understand silence as being an important part of composition. So it is inherently music.

- If a piece is played too loudly it can be described as noisy but it is still music primary.

- When does music become noise? When the context changes however it is still music. Literally noisy music.

- Can random sounds be music? Given the context points above. Yes.

I hereby sentence the Mr John Milton Cage as a musician.


----------



## Philip (Mar 22, 2011)

Ravndal said:


> I belive that sound is music. I listen a lot to experimental and "noise" music, and i get so much from it. It's no point in defining music, since it's always subjective no matter what.


OT: The Caretaker represent..


----------



## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

"one fundamental definition of music is _*'organized sound.'*_ What sounds are used or their sources, or specifically or non-specifically pitched, that definition, happily, does not qualify.

"Organized" in no way intimates or requires 'pattern,' any more than "Rhythm" automatically intimates 'metric.'

Lucia Dlugoszewski ~ Fire Fragile Flight 




Luciano Berio ~ Visage


----------

