# To the Wagner addicts:



## bz3 (Oct 15, 2015)

If you're a former addict, of which I know there are many, where did you go after your blurred obsession with Wagner?

I mean this sincerely and out of curiosity, I'm not interested in litigating the relative fandom of composers or whether Wagner had 'something wrong' with him. I mean plainly where did former Wagner obsessors go afterward?

For instance when I joined this forum I listened to all sorts, mostly late baroque through Romantic, and heavily based on what I played when I was younger. For the last couple of years it's just Wagner I listen to. Yes there's occasional late Beethoven, Brahms chamber, Bach organ or piano, or Romantic piano - especially at work. But beyond that I just listen to Wagner, watch it, etc. 

So for those ladies and gents who experienced Wagner like this in their 20s, 30s, 40s or even later, what came next?


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

bz3 said:


> So for those ladies and gents who experienced Wagner like this in their 20s, 30s, 40s or even later, what came next?


I had an uncle who was a Wagner addict until he died. I don't know why you assume that your love affair with Wagner's music will recede. However, if it does, you will naturally gravitate to a particular direction/source. My advice is that you stop thinking about it and let nature take its course.


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## Rogerx (Apr 27, 2018)

Another Wagner thread 

see https://www.talkclassical.com/40784-wagner-fans-why-do.html?highlight=Wagner


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## Zhdanov (Feb 16, 2016)

bz3 said:


> where did you go after your blurred obsession with Wagner?


blurred? does the composer's music even allow that? Der Ring for example is perfectly clear about things, with all the leitmotifs being perfectly in line with its text, so no ambiguity left for anyone to wonder about the message & the meaning of it.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

I had a spell on Wagner but I have found other sorts of opera far more enjoyable to listen to. Handel operas for example. I was also put off Wagner by some of the people on TC who seemed to me to take him too seriously for my taste and appeared to think everyone should. For me opera is a hobby not to be taken too seriously. So Wagner on the back burner for the time being. Not suggesting this is true for everyone, of course, but you've asked people for their experience. If you're looking for something post-Wagner try the pure air of Handel.


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## JoeSaunders (Jan 29, 2015)

Zhdanov said:


> blurred? does the composer's music even allow that? Der Ring for example is perfectly clear about things, with all the leitmotifs being perfectly in line with its text, *so no ambiguity left for anyone to wonder about the message & the meaning of it.*


Mate this is such a bad take ahahahah


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

Nothing can compare, but when I listen to something else it has to have
very good orchestral music.
If I am not listening to Wagner it's usually Strauss.

I don't care for baroque opera. The recitative drives me nutty and they all sound the same after a while.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

Itullian said:


> Nothing can compare, but when I listen to something else it has to have
> very good orchestral music.
> If I am not listening to Wagner it's usually Strauss.
> 
> I don't care for baroque opera. The recitative drives me nutty and* they all sound the same after a while*.


We had a thread idea on that. :lol:


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

*Classical.* CPE, Mozart, Haydn et. al. The taste and restraint of this period can restore some sanity to the Wagner addict. Take twice per day, mornings and evenings.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

DavidA said:


> I had a spell on Wagner but I have found other sorts of opera far more enjoyable to listen to. Handel operas for example. I was also put off Wagner by some of the people on TC who seemed to me to take him too seriously for my taste and appeared to think everyone should. For me opera is a hobby not to be taken too seriously. So Wagner on the back burner for the time being. Not suggesting this is true for everyone, of course, but you've asked people for their experience. If you're looking for something post-Wagner try the pure air of Handel.


The OP is addressed to "Wagner addicts," not to people who are over-eager to say that they find other opera far more enjoyable. Nobody cares what you find more enjoyable. But any mention of Wagner is an excuse for you to flounce in and announce that other people take Wagner too seriously "for your taste."

The taste your constant anti-Wagner ranting leaves is a bad taste.


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

Woodduck said:


> The OP is addressed to "Wagner addicts," not to people who are over-eager to say that they find other opera far more enjoyable. Nobody cares what you find more enjoyable. But any mention of Wagner is an excuse for you to flounce in and announce that other people take Wagner too seriously "for your taste."
> 
> The taste your constant anti-Wagner ranting leaves is a bad taste.


DavidA has a seriously masochistic Wagner-obsession himself.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Couchie said:


> DavidA has a seriously masochistic Wagner-obsession himself.


Do you think he's a closet case? Was he molested by a beret as a child?


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Couchie said:


> DavidA has a seriously masochistic Wagner-obsession himself.


You guys really crack me up! I can assure you like other misguided comments from this quarter, DavidA has no masochistic Wagner-obsession. He leaves that dubious pleasure to others! :lol:

It would also appear now that even answering the question of the OP: _'If you're a *former* addict, of which I know there are many, where did you go *after* your blurred obsession with Wagner?'_ in an honest fashion now upsets some people. You just can't win. Never mind!


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

DavidA said:


> You guys really crack me up! I can assure you like other misguided comments from this quarter, DavidA has no masochistic Wagner-obsession. He leaves that dubious pleasure to others! :lol:
> 
> It would also appear now that even answering the question of the OP: _'If you're a *former* addict, of which I know there are many, where did you go *after* your blurred obsession with Wagner?'_ in an honest fashion now upsets some people. You just can't win. Never mind!


It is not credible that you ever had an "addiction" to Wagner. But you do clearly have an addiction, continuing for six or more years now, to using any and every Wagner discussion to make your dislike of him and his admirers known, as if you imagined us all permanently in a state of anticipation, waiting to hear the same unprofitable stuff you've said all the other times when you couldn't resist crashing the party.

An "addiction" to a composer's music is at least a _positive_ obsession. An addiction to putting a composer down in the presence of people who enjoy him is a _negative_ obsession. It's also rather rude. But maybe that's the point...

There are several other people on this forum who exhibit this same pattern of behavior: they just can't resist disparaging some composer or other right in the faces of people who enjoy him, and doing it repeatedly, knowing the effect it will have. They all rationalize it differently, but they are all rightly regarded as pests. If we could give "dislikes" here, this type would be a prime target. As it is, we can only "like" those who point out what the comments of such people are really worth.

If you actually were, as you (unbelievably) claim, a former Wagner addict who's been "put off Wagner by some of the people on TC who seemed to to take him too seriously for [your] taste and appeared to think everyone should," that's a rather sad confession. You should learn to rely on your own judgment and ignore people with whose tastes you don't agree. But you should also learn that people are not interested in being told over and over again that the thing they're seriously interested in is not to be taken seriously. You know perfectly well that Wagner's works have been the subject of serious study since his own time. Some of us here have engaged in such study, and even those who haven't may be serious listeners who enjoy looking beneath the surface of the operas. There are many people here for whom Wagner's works have interesting things to say and are not mere "entertainment." If that's all they are to you, then why not just go and be "entertained"? No one here is entertained having to listen to you broadcast interminably the limits of your appreciation.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

After I heard Wagner, it was obvious to me where to go afterwards: to Strauss (Elektra, Salome, Metamprphosen), then on to Schoenberg's post-Romantic works like Pelleas, Verklart, The Book of the Hanging Gardens, Erwartung, then to Berg's operas (Wozzeck, Lulu). I was just following a historical path, and I'm glad to say that I'm proud to be a part of this inevitable march into the future of music.


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## amfortas (Jun 15, 2011)

millionrainbows said:


> After I heard Wagner, it was obvious to me where to go afterwards: to Strauss (Elektra, Salome, Metamprphosen), then on to Schoenberg's post-Romantic works like Pelleas, Verklart, The Book of the Hanging Gardens, Erwartung, then to Berg's operas (Wozzeck, Lulu). I was just following a historical path, and I'm glad to say that I'm proud to be a part of this inevitable march into the future of music.


Or take a different fork in the historical path through Bruckner and Mahler to get onto the Schoenberg, Berg, and Webern trail.

But I take issue with the whole "former/after" premise. I still love Wagner, even while I've expanded my interest to other composers.


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## Guest (Jul 1, 2019)

I'm having difficulty understanding several things about this thread:

i - The thread title is _"To The Wagner Addicts"_, and question posed is _"If you're a former addict, of which I know there are many, where did you go after your blurred obsession with Wagner?"_ (my underlining). Is it not the case that "Wagner Addicts" and "former Wagner addicts" are two mutually exclusive groups?

ii. There may be a few "Wagner addicts" active on T-C, but I have not come across anyone admitting to being a "former Wagner addict". All of the comments so far in this thread have been by either possible Wagner addicts, or by other people in some other capacity.

iii. Assuming there are some "former Wagner addicts" who could give advice, is it likely that they can recommend another area of music to switch to, and avoid the risk of becoming addicted to that too? If so it would be a matter of merely swapping one musical addiction for another.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

amfortas said:


> I take issue with the whole "former/after" premise. I still love Wagner, even while I've expanded my interest to other composers.


It _is_ odd, isn't it, to think of "getting over" an "addiction" to a composer. Is the term appropriate? Not to make too much of this, but if music excites us, and especially if it continues to inspire us over many years, that's cause for gratitude, not for a 12-step program!

I suspect most of us go through phases of intense interest in certain composers, followed by relative neglect in favor of others. Often we come back, if not with quite the intensity of former years, but possibly with a wider context for appreciation. As an adolescent I must have driven my parents insane with daily doses of Strauss waltzes and _Swan Lake_, and later with Beethoven's 5th and Wagner overtures. Then it was on to the full operas. It wasn't an "addiction," and furthermore I still enjoy all this music, though I listen to it less often.

Wagner is in some ways a special case, since there's more to his work than pure music and we can decide how deeply we want to delve. It can remain fascinating for an hour or a lifetime. My most continuous consumption of Wagner occurred in my late teens, but there have been periods of intense investigation since. Being able to share thoughts arising from these investigations here on TC has undoubtedly kept Wagner more in my focus than he would be otherwise. Talking about him isn't an addiction; it's more like visiting with an old friend. If I've acquired new musical "friends" since the days of my most intense Wagner enthusiasm, it isn't a matter of "moving on."


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## amfortas (Jun 15, 2011)

Woodduck said:


> Talking about him isn't an addiction; it's more like visiting with an old friend. If I've acquired new musical "friends" since the days of my most intense Wagner enthusiasm, it isn't a matter of "moving on."


Indeed, I never saw the harm in having such musical friends. Until they started talking back to me; that required a family intervention.


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## Guest (Jul 1, 2019)

I wonder if there any "clinics" where people with a composer obsession may go for a "de-tox" and possible longer term treatment.

One can imagine such places charging very fancy fees. I bet the USA ones would be very plush inside, with perhaps special rooms devoted to various different composers. 

I would imagine that the biggest client areas would be set aside for devotees of Wagner, Beethoven and Mozart. 

Speculating, I guess that the main treatment would involve 

(i) being denied access to any of said composer's music initially for 2 hours to start and gradually building to 24 hours after a week or so; 
(ii) regular hefty doses of Librium or Valium, or some other form of benzodiazepine; 
(iii) access denied to any music forum; 
(iv) daily "prayers" in group sessions reciting some kind of "12-point" plan;
(v) discussing one's obsession with fellow addicts.

I'd love to be a "fly on the wall" at some of these meetings, watching new inmates slobbering all over the place, with tongues hanging out, begging to hear just more Beethoven sonata, Mozart aria, or whatever, before the commencement of treatment.


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## Larkenfield (Jun 5, 2017)

For yours truly, Mozart is the cure for anything. He has no opposite or distracting rough edges. He’s like Stephen Curry in the zone of alpha brainwave perfection shooting three-pointers. Swish. Swish. Swish. But unfortunately, Wagner’s balls are sometimes too big for the basket.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Larkenfield said:


> For yours truly, *Mozart is the cure for anything*. He has no opposite or distracting rough edges. He's like Stephen Curry in the zone of alpha brainwave perfection shooting three-pointers. Swish. Swish. Swish. But unfortunately, Wagner's balls are sometimes too big for the basket.


I believe it was Thomas Beecham who said that if he were a dictator he'd make it a law that everyone should listen to at least 15 minutes of Mozart a day. That said I'd better go and get my daily fix before my therapist comes! :lol:


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

millionrainbows said:


> After I heard Wagner, it was obvious to me where to go afterwards: to Strauss (Elektra, Salome, Metamprphosen), then on to Schoenberg's post-Romantic works like Pelleas, Verklart, The Book of the Hanging Gardens, Erwartung, then to Berg's operas (Wozzeck, Lulu). I was just following a historical path, and I'm glad to say that* I'm proud to be a part of this inevitable march into the future of music*.


It's just that the march tends to thin out a bit around Wozzeck and Lulu. I do have a set of the former but have never yet plucked up the courage to listen to it.


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## Reichstag aus LICHT (Oct 25, 2010)

As a Wagner addict for nearly 40 years - I started in my mid-teens - I found myself craving similarly "heavy" fare initially (e.g. Berlioz, Strauss, Berg, Britten). I still adore Wagner and other "heavies", but I've really embraced early/baroque opera in recent years and listen to it a lot. Handel has become a Top Five opera composer for me, and I'd probably include Monteverdi and Rameau in my Top Ten.


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

DavidA said:


> I believe it was Thomas Beecham who said that if he were a dictator he'd make it a law that everyone should listen to at least 15 minutes of Mozart a day. That said I'd better go and get my daily fix before my therapist comes! :lol:


I think that would come under the realm of 'cruel and unusual punishment'. Now 15 minutes of anyone other than Mozart e.g. Mantovani!! Now you're talking!!


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## annaw (May 4, 2019)

I also listen to Wagner probably more than to any other composer just because I really enjoy his music - I don't think it's anything bad that I want to get rid of. That doesn't mean I don't appreciate or like any other composers, but I personally find that Wagner's music just goes both deeper and higher than any other composer's and is emotionally very charging, but that's purely individual, because people appreciate very different things. Of course I understand that all people can't like the same type of compositions/composers - I'm myself not a huge fan of chamber music or solo works for example although I've tried to get into chamber music multiple times. So... I'm not really even trying to 'unlike' Wagner


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

annaw said:


> I also listen to Wagner probably more than to any other composer just because I really enjoy his music - I don't think it's anything bad that I want to get rid of. That doesn't mean I don't appreciate or like any other composers, but I personally find that Wagner's music just goes both deeper and higher than any other composer's and is emotionally very charging, but *that's purely individual, because people appreciate very different things. Of course I understand that all people can't like the same type of compositions/composers* - I'm myself not a huge fan of chamber music or solo works for example although I've tried to get into chamber music multiple times. So... I'm not really even trying to 'unlike' Wagner


Sums it up doesn''t it!


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Barbebleu said:


> I think that would come under the realm of 'cruel and unusual punishment'. Now 15 minutes of anyone other than Mozart e.g. Mantovani!! Now you're talking!!


My mother is a Mantovani fan but then she is almost completely non-musical and can't hit a note.


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## annaw (May 4, 2019)

Woodduck said:


> Wagner is in some ways a special case, since there's more to his work than pure music and we can decide how deeply we want to delve.


That's something I really appreciate about Wagner and I think it's one of the reasons that makes his operas/dramas so unique.


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

Woodduck said:


> Do you think he's a closet case? Was he molested by a beret as a child?


There's a regie production in that somewhere!

N.


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

Woodduck said:


> It _is_ odd, isn't it, to think of "getting over" an "addiction" to a composer. Is the term appropriate? Not to make too much of this, but if music excites us, and especially if it continues to inspire us over many years, that's cause for gratitude, not for a 12-step program!
> 
> I suspect most of us go through phases of intense interest in certain composers, followed by relative neglect in favor of others. Often we come back, if not with quite the intensity of former years, but possibly with a wider context for appreciation. As an adolescent I must have driven my parents insane with daily doses of Strauss waltzes and _Swan Lake_, and later with Beethoven's 5th and Wagner overtures. Then it was on to the full operas. It wasn't an "addiction," and furthermore I still enjoy all this music, though I listen to it less often.
> 
> Wagner is in some ways a special case, since there's more to his work than pure music and we can decide how deeply we want to delve. It can remain fascinating for an hour or a lifetime. My most continuous consumption of Wagner occurred in my late teens, but there have been periods of intense investigation since. Being able to share thoughts arising from these investigations here on TC has undoubtedly kept Wagner more in my focus than he would be otherwise. Talking about him isn't an addiction; it's more like visiting with an old friend. If I've acquired new musical "friends" since the days of my most intense Wagner enthusiasm, it isn't a matter of "moving on."


This! I would count myself a Wagner addict perhaps, but would then have to count myself a bel canto and Verdi addict too. I have always listened to a range of music and continue to do so and would rather do that than listen to one composer all the time for a few years and then move on to another. Therefore I don't feel the need to 'cleanse' my hearing after listening to music I love.

I agree that the premise of the thread is somewhat strange.

N.


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## NLAdriaan (Feb 6, 2019)

It is an addiction if you cannot do without and it becomes religious if you start to idolize your golden calf and offend (alone or in collusion) others with your convictions. Both conditions are quite closely related, especially when Wagner is concerned.


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

NLAdriaan said:


> It is an addiction if you cannot do without and it becomes religious if you start to idolize your golden calf and offend (alone or in collusion) others with your convictions. Both conditions are quite closely related, especially when Wagner is concerned.


There is something missing from your description of an addiction and that is that it is harmful to the sufferer and they have feelings of remorse after overindulging. For example I cannot do without oxygen and am rather partial to it. Am I addicted to air?

As to others being offended by a person's love of an artist or work of art, how does that cause offence? I'm not offended by others' addiction to Mozart (a composer who similarly elicits strong adoration by 'addicts').

N.


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## Guest (Jul 2, 2019)

DavidA said:


> My mother is a Mantovani fan but then she is almost completely non-musical and can't hit a note.


For some older folks, i gather that watching Liberace on TV on a Sunday evening was the height of musical sophistication.


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## Guest (Jul 2, 2019)

Not being a New Yorker, I'm not sure if it's correct but I once heard that Wagner's beret looks similar to the kind of head gear that staff of the NYC Cleansing Department wear when they're out and about in their trucks collecting garbage. Is that correct?


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

DavidA said:


> I believe it was Thomas Beecham who said that if he were a dictator he'd make it a law that everyone should listen to at least 15 minutes of Mozart a day. That said I'd better go and get my daily fix before my therapist comes! :lol:


Some would no doubt like to live in a dictatorship where each morning everyone repeats the mantra: Mozart good. Wagner bad.

N.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

Partita said:


> Not being a New Yorker, I'm not sure if it's correct but I once heard that Wagner's beret looks similar to the kind of head gear that staff of the NYC Cleansing Department wear when they're out and about in their trucks collecting garbage. Is that correct?


They all must be Wagner addicts!


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## Guest (Jul 2, 2019)

Fritz Kobus said:


> They all must be Wagner addicts!


They could be the only Wagner addicts. No I didn't say that.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

Partita said:


> They could be the only Wagner addicts. No I didn't say that.


So we need a poll on TC regarding true Wagner addicts. Do they wear the Wagner beret?


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## NLAdriaan (Feb 6, 2019)

The Conte said:


> There is something missing from your description of an addiction and that is that it is harmful to the sufferer and they have feelings of remorse after overindulging. For example I cannot do without oxygen and am rather partial to it. Am I addicted to air?
> 
> As to others being offended by a person's love of an artist or work of art, how does that cause offence? I'm not offended by others' addiction to Mozart (a composer who similarly elicits strong adoration by 'addicts').
> 
> N.


An addiction does not have to be harmful to the sufferer. A kid addicted to gaming, any fan of certain music. However, if one starts to believe one cannot live without or identifies with it, if one makes a comparison of music with oxygen, it already becomes awkward 
Oxygen is fallacy here, not a true comparison, just as gravity, food, drinking water, sunshine, and everything we are naturally dependent on is not an addiction.

If one attacks, bullies, excommunicates others who question or don't share your addiction, it all may become pretty offensive to others. The fan or his clan reacts if one of them is 'under attack'. Typical behavior with all kinds of orthodox religious movements, either Christian, Muslim or sectarian. Such movements often seem to be in need of enemies, in order to maintain the group spirit alive. If the 'enemy' has convincing arguments, the group might fall apart. Did you truly never see things like this?


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## Bourdon (Jan 4, 2019)

........................................


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

Partita said:


> ...The thread title is _"To The Wagner Addicts"_, and question posed is _"If you're a former addict, of which I know there are many, where did you go after your blurred obsession with Wagner?"_ (my underlining).


Well, the assumption appears to be that one goes through Wagner and then moves on, climbing the evolutionary ladder of harmonic expansion.

PS, I know what NLAdriaan and all his detractors are referring to. They are referring to "the ultimate Wagner addict."


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## NLAdriaan (Feb 6, 2019)

Fritz Kobus said:


> They all must be Wagner addicts!











In Europe we have a country full of Wagner addicts who even eat batons:lol:


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

The Conte said:


> There is something missing from your description of an addiction and that is that it is harmful to the sufferer and they have feelings of remorse after overindulging. For example I cannot do without oxygen and am rather partial to it. Am I addicted to air?
> 
> As to others being offended by a person's love of an artist or work of art, how does that cause offence? I'm not offended by others' addiction to Mozart (a composer who similarly elicits strong adoration by 'addicts').
> 
> N.


I think NLAdriaan is complaining about being edged out of another Wagner thread. I can see how one might be offended if a discussion turns "personal," but the trick to resisting such strategies is to not acknowledge personal "invalidations," however well-justified, and stick to the 'idea' one is pushing. Don't even bring a personal dimension in to it. Remain totally objective.


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## annaw (May 4, 2019)

Fritz Kobus said:


> So we need a poll on TC regarding true Wagner addicts. Do they wear the Wagner beret?


Yes, this poll is essential :lol:!


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

The Conte said:


> Some would no doubt like to live in a dictatorship where each morning everyone repeats the mantra: Mozart good. Wagner bad.
> 
> N.


Would you sooner live in the other form of dictatorship in which the leader idolised Wagner?


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

I want the horned helmet. It's more practical in today's world, especially at night.


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## NLAdriaan (Feb 6, 2019)

millionrainbows said:


> I think *NLAdriaan is complaining *about being edged out of another Wagner thread. I can see how one might be offended if a discussion turns "personal," but the trick to resisting such strategies is to not acknowledge personal "invalidations," however well-justified, and stick to the 'idea' one is pushing. *Don't even bring a personal dimension in to it. Remain totally objective.*





> PS, I know what *NLAdriaan and all his detractors* are referring to. They are referring to "*the ultimate Wagner addict.*"


Questions: Who is making this a personal thing? '....and all his detractors': who are 'we' and 'what' are 'we' up against?


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## Reichstag aus LICHT (Oct 25, 2010)

millionrainbows said:


> I want the horned helmet. It's more practical in today's world, especially at night.


Doctor Who agrees:


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

NLAdriaan said:


> Questions: Who is making this a personal thing? '....and all his detractors': who are 'we' and 'what' are 'we' up against?


Oh, come on, Adriaan. I'm not saying you're wrong about any of it. I might fully agree. But to make peace, I have chosen to go along. Anyway, i know exactly what you are referring to. If you don't want that, then disguise it better.

That is, unless you really _are_...~gasp~...I _dare_ not say...


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

millionrainbows said:


> I think NLAdriaan is complaining about being edged out of another Wagner thread. I can see how one might be offended if a discussion turns "personal," but the trick to resisting such strategies is to not acknowledge personal "invalidations," however well-justified, and stick to the 'idea' one is pushing. *Don't even bring a personal dimension in to it. Remain totally objective*.


Of course, we know that everyone on TC is always totally objective in their judgments! :lol:


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

DavidA said:


> Would you sooner live in the other form of dictatorship in which the leader idolised Wagner?


No. Very little in life is a binary choice between two sole options.

N.


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

NLAdriaan said:


> An addiction does not have to be harmful to the sufferer. A kid addicted to gaming, any fan of certain music. However, if one starts to believe one cannot live without or identifies with it, if one makes a comparison of music with oxygen, it already becomes awkward
> Oxygen is fallacy here, not a true comparison, just as gravity, food, drinking water, sunshine, and everything we are naturally dependent on is not an addiction.
> 
> If one attacks, bullies, excommunicates others who question or don't share your addiction, it all may become pretty offensive to others. The fan or his clan reacts if one of them is 'under attack'. Typical behavior with all kinds of orthodox religious movements, either Christian, Muslim or sectarian. Such movements often seem to be in need of enemies, in order to maintain the group spirit alive. If the 'enemy' has convincing arguments, the group might fall apart. Did you truly never see things like this?


The OP uses the word 'addict' in a figurative sense to mean someone who really adores something (in this case Wagner). You posted a definition that reflects a more literal reading of the word. I don't think that is what this thread is about. However, going with your literal definition (someone who cannot do without) then we are all addicted to breathing! If that definition no longer works for you, then my job is done. According to groups such as AA addiction is self-diagnosed.

I have seen the mechanisms you describe and they are the hallmarks of a fanatic or extremist rather than an addict (as in the figurative meaning of that word, which is what this thread is about as already mentioned). It's quite possible to be devoted to an artist (whether it be Wagner, Mozart or Rembrandt) without being an extremist.

N.


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## annaw (May 4, 2019)

The Conte said:


> *The OP uses the word 'addict' in a figurative sense to mean someone who really adores something (in this case Wagner). You posted a definition that reflects a more literal reading of the word. I don't think that is what this thread is about. However, going with your literal definition (someone who cannot do without) then we are all addicted to breathing! If that definition no longer works for you, then my job is done. According to groups such as AA addiction is self-diagnosed.*
> 
> I have seen the mechanisms you describe and they are the hallmarks of a fanatic or extremist rather than an addict (as in the figurative meaning of that word, which is what this thread is about as already mentioned). It's quite possible to be devoted to an artist (whether it be Wagner, Mozart or Rembrandt) without being an extremist.
> 
> N.


You really see when someone has participated in many 'Wagner-philosophy/analysis' threads


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

annaw said:


> You really see when someone has participated in many 'Wagner-philosophy/analysis' threads


Hmm...let me mull that over in my subconscious mind...

So, are you saying simply, "Submit to the singers" and no need for any extra-musical content overkill? Sounds like a very sensual, hedonistic approach. Yet, since opera is the least 'abstract' of musical forms, using plot, setting, props, etc, this seems a contradiction in a sense.

It seems like the complaint is a generalized dislike of modern musical theatre, whatever that is. Exemplified by Broadway? What about Gilbert & Sullivan?


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

I'm sure the OP didn't mean anything ghastly by using the word "addiction," but the connotations of the word still make its use questionable. We shouldn't be worried about being addicted to a thing unless it interferes in some way with other desirable and necessary life activities - unless, that is, we're unable to control our pursuit of it despite negative consequences for ourselves or others. Only such consequences would make it, or "getting over it," an issue worth discussing.

If every time your spouse suggested going out to dinner, having sex, or mowing the lawn, you said, "Honey, I can't! I need to listen to _Parsifal!_", you might be said to have an addiction. On the other hand, you may simply be married to the wrong person.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

DavidA said:


> Of course, we know that everyone on TC is always totally objective in their judgments! :lol:


But your initial question was put that way


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## Meyerbeer Smith (Mar 25, 2016)

Reichstag aus LICHT said:


> Doctor Who agrees:


Sheer poetry, dear boy!


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

Woodduck said:


> I'm sure the OP didn't mean anything ghastly by using the word "addiction," but the connotations of the word still make its use questionable. We shouldn't be worried about being addicted to a thing unless it interferes in some way with other desirable and necessary life activities - unless, that is, we're unable to control our pursuit of it despite negative consequences for ourselves or others. Only such consequences would make it, or "getting over it," an issue worth discussing.
> 
> If every time your spouse suggested going out to dinner, having sex, or mowing the lawn, you said, "Honey, I can't! I need to listen to _Parsifal!_", you might be said to have an addiction. On the other hand, you may simply be married to the wrong person.


But let's put this into specific perspective; "addiction" is just a borrowed word, and we are talking about a "Wagner addiction" in a musical/listening context, not in relation to real life issues such as dinner, sex, or one's relationships with loved ones.

So it might make more sense to say that we shouldn't be worried about being addicted to Wagner unless it interferes in some way with other desirable and necessary music and composers. If we're unable to control our love of Wagner despite negative consequences for other posters, or for fair, just, equitable discussions, only such consequences would make "getting over it," an issue worth discussing, especially for the non-Wagnerites who perhaps are "intervening" for the purposes of more equitable and fair discussion.

Of course, this could also be applied to "anti-Wagnerites ," in which case the matter loses all objectivity and descends into animosity.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

millionrainbows said:


> But let's put this into specific perspective; "addiction" is just a borrowed word, and we are talking about a "Wagner addiction" in a musical/listening context, not in relation to real life issues such as dinner, sex, or one's relationships with loved ones.


Thanks, professor.



> So it might make more sense to say that we shouldn't be worried about being addicted to Wagner unless it interferes in some way with other desirable and necessary music and composers. If we're unable to control our love of Wagner despite negative consequences for other posters, or for fair, just, equitable discussions, only such consequences would make "getting over it," an issue worth discussing, especially for the non-Wagnerites who perhaps are "intervening" for the purposes of more equitable and fair discussion.
> 
> Of course, this could also be applied to "anti-Wagnerites ," *in which case the matter loses all objectivity and descends into animosity.*


Real discussions of real subjects descend into animosity when people hostile to those subjects and to people enthusiastic about them decide that they're performing a service, or merely exercising their God-given rights, by parading their aversion - and their fundamental indifference - in public. It's a consistent pattern in threads about Wagner, easy to discern.

What "the matter" usually descends into is displays of ignorance. But hey, why not? Almost every discussion on TC does that, except for the ones (rather numerous) that are pointless to begin with. Those descend, if descent is possible, into chaos and vapidity. Fortunately for a thread about "addiction" to music, not much descent is possible before we hit bottom.

Are we there yet?


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

As others have said, it's fine to strongly love a particular music. I'd say it's also OK to be somewhat obsessed with art and artists we like (within reason of course). However when someone says that one person's adoration of a particular composer is unhealthy, but then talks about their favourite composer in similar terms (or with ridiculous hyperbole) that's hypocrisy.

N.


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## Meyerbeer Smith (Mar 25, 2016)

Meyerbeer! :devil:

I was infatuated with Wagner in my final year of university. I listened to all but the three early works on CD; watched DVDs; and read all the commentary and criticism I could lay hands on. I don't think I had the T-shirt; I certainly had a mug, a calendar, and a bust on my desk. I made compilation discs of highlights, and pressed them on my friends. I would sit in the dark, listening transfixed to the _Lohengrin _prelude or Siegfrieds Trauermarsch. I even sang Wotan's Farewell as we put our dog to sleep (much to the vet's consternation).

(I first listened to _Rheingold_ when I was six or seven; I was into Norse mythology.)

My father was worried. "Listen to Berlioz," he'd insist. "Listen to Benvenuto Cellini!" - Bah, I'd say, it's a number opera, in French. I must have been mad.

The intoxicating effects of the Liebeszaubertrank gradually wore off, for various reasons, and I awoke from night to the light of day.

For the record: _Lohengrin _is great; I enjoy _Tannhäuser _and the _Flying _Dutchman; and _Das Liebesverbot _is exhilarating. I don't like the sub-Spontinian _Rienzi _(does anyone?). There is much to love in _Meistersinger_; it's Wagner's warmest and most human work (particularly the Sachs/Elsa relationship), but I find Beckmesser and the appeal to German nationalism problematic. (The 1988 Opera Australia production, with Donald McIntyre as Sachs, is excellent.) I don't like _Tristan und Isolde_, but the Liebesnacht music and Brängane's watch are sublime. The _Ring _leaves me slightly cold; there are many passages of extraordinary beauty, power, and imagination, but also long stretches of tedium; and Wagner's notion of continuous melody doesn't convince me. (I should listen to the Solti _Ring _again. The Met's 1990 production is sluggish. I would love to see the _Ring _- and many other operas! - made into a high-budget film, à la Peter Jackson's _Rings_. Whatever happened to those opera films of the '70s and '80s?) _Parsifal _ has some of Wagner's finest music: particularly the prelude; the luminous, mesmerising first act, with the Transformation Music and the Grail feast; and "Nur eine Waffe taugt". Even when I don't like Wagner, he fascinates me; he is always a composer to be reckoned with.

The next year, out of curiosity, I watched a DVD of Meyerbeer's _Huguenots_. I'd come across the composer in my readings - often described as one of the most popular composers of his day, a bridge between Rossini and Wagner, but his crowd-pleasing epics, full of "effects without causes", had long since been superseded by Musikdrama. At the very least, I thought, Meyerbeer would be fun. I was astonished to find that _Les Huguenots _was compelling, dramatic, intimate, grandiose, melodic - everything I wanted from 19th century opera, and certainly not the perpetrator of cardboard dinosaur theatre Charles Osborne (_Verdi_) dismissed. This was a composer I wanted to learn more about. The next day, I found the (now defunct) Meyerbeer Fan Club page, and Tom Kaufman's site, and read about Meyerbeer's other operas, Halévy, Auber, Mercadante...

And that was the start of my quest to hear every major opera composed since Peri. (NOTE: A primordial Italian opera composer, and not the American botany student whom Colin Baker throttled.)

I also wear a beret, and pack a Beretta.


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## gellio (Nov 7, 2013)

Bulldog said:


> I had an uncle who was a Wagner addict until he died. I don't know why you assume that your love affair with Wagner's music will recede. However, if it does, you will naturally gravitate to a particular direction/source. My advice is that you stop thinking about it and let nature take its course.


Exactly, my love affairs with composers only grows. Sometimes I will listen to nothing but the _Ring_ for months and months. Right now, I'm in big Classical Period opera phase.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

Woodduck said:


> Thanks, professor.
> Real discussions of real subjects descend into animosity when people hostile to those subjects and to people enthusiastic about them decide that they're performing a service, or merely exercising their God-given rights, by parading their aversion - and their fundamental indifference - in public. It's a consistent pattern in threads about Wagner, easy to discern.
> 
> What "the matter" usually descends into is displays of ignorance. But hey, why not? Almost every discussion on TC does that, except for the ones (rather numerous) that are pointless to begin with. Those descend, if descent is possible, into chaos and vapidity. Fortunately for a thread about "addiction" to music, not much descent is possible before we hit bottom.
> ...


If one is an expert, then one becomes a target, and ends up casting pearls before swine. Much internet activity seems to thrive on "I'm smarter than you" contests. 
I'll take from your reply that you, like myself, are tired of discussions which are designed to be negative, or have that subtle option built-in, as this one seems to be.

The focus on "Wagner addicts" is unfair, and seeks to cleverly distance its attack on individuals, instead creating a "Wagner addict" which can be the focus of whatever may come up.

You and I both know what's going on here, and we are both, along with Sid James, lamenting this tendency. We should be aware that this is a two-way street, and that if other people here are enthusiastic about their own pet likes, we should not rain on their parade.

But negativity? It's not a thing to "share," or to "create the soil" in which it can thrive.

Any Beethoven addicts out there?

RE: your earlier statement:


Woodduck said:


> I'm sure the OP didn't mean anything ghastly by using the word "addiction," but the connotations of the word still make its use questionable.


I think you are too generous. It's exactly this type of _subtle innuendo_ that _invites_ whatever may happen, leaving the door wide open for any negative posting.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

millionrainbows said:


> *If one is an expert, then one becomes a target, and ends up casting pearls before swine..*


Of course. Anyone who doesn't share the views off the 'experts' and dares to question them is part of the great unwashed - nay the herd of swine the 'experts' are casting their pearls before. Can I just say that the OP asked 'If you're a *former addict*, of which I know there are *many*, where did you go *after *your *blurred obsession with Wagner*?'

ie I would have thought it is up to people who have by now got over their 'blurred obsession' to answer the question not the 'experts' who still share it. The question is 'where do you go from here?' (see Dr Shatterhand post 62 for a good example) not a defence of Wagner. Haven't we had enough of that?
For my own part I have discovered recently that Handel has written some really terrific music in his operas. I do suggest people investigate.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

This is a ridiculous discussion, as others here have noted.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

millionrainbows said:


> This is a ridiculous discussion, as others here have noted.


Why join in then? :lol:


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## OperaChic (Aug 26, 2015)

Ever since my first introduction to and subsequent exploration of Wagner's music and art I've felt something uniquely seductive about his works that set him apart from most other composers or artists of any field for that matter. Although I still haven't been able to pin down what makes him so extraordinary, I'm sure it's a quality that all Wagnerians pick up on to some extent, and why he plays a significant role in our lives. I can see why in a sense his work _is_ dangerous and potentially addictive. It is so absorbing, so various, and seemingly so inclusive that it can be tempting to want to live life _through_ the music dramas themselves. They do contain a sort of thriling and vigourous energy that I imagine most people's lives lack on a day to day basis. It is an astonishing quality of Wagner's art that it can provide enough emotional and spiritual nourishment to make people feel like they possibly don't need anything else; however, taking this route is most certainly detrimental in the long run. Like most of my fellow Wagnerians I'm sure, I've discovered the true value of his operas is in their ability of to enrich life: they are full of revelations, directives and challenges which help me make better sense of my experiences and to think with renewed clarity on wider existential questions.

My love for Wagner is no less deep or strong than it ever was, though I haven't been able to find much other music that takes one to such an extreme of consciousness. Perhaps some of Beethoven's late works, especially the string quartets. But it is an extreme I don't always want to go to, and can't always cope with. So I afford Wagner a prominent position in my life and turn to other composers for different aesthetic encounters.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

DavidA said:


> Why join in then? :lol:


Waaaaaahhh! Sob sob sniffle...WWaaaaaahhhh!


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## bz3 (Oct 15, 2015)

As the OP I assure everyone I have not neglected my family, work, or health due to listening to Wagner although I did consider it. It is fascinating the bizarre turns some of these threads take, most of which I feel no need to respond to since I don't think the posters really wanted a response so much as they wanted to give a series of their thoughts on the nature of addiction.

But otherwise, some good suggestions. Surprised nobody really mentioned Verdi (that I recall) or Italian opera in general as that's what I had my eye on. In any case I assure everyone my Wagner relationship is healthy and my life will proceed as the gods see fit.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

bz3 said:


> As the OP I assure everyone I have not neglected my family, work, or health due to listening to Wagner although I did consider it. It is fascinating the bizarre turns some of these threads take, most of which I feel no need to respond to since I don't think the posters really wanted a response so much as they wanted to give a series of their thoughts on the nature of addiction.
> 
> But otherwise, some good suggestions. Surprised nobody really mentioned Verdi (that I recall) or Italian opera in general as that's what I had my eye on. In any case *I assure everyone my Wagner relationship is healthy and my life will proceed as the gods see fit.*


The gods... Hmmmm. You don't mean Wotan and Fricka...?


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## bz3 (Oct 15, 2015)

Partita said:


> For some older folks, i gather that watching Liberace on TV on a Sunday evening was the height of musical sophistication.


I am in my early 30s and if I am home on Saturday evenings I always watch Lawrence Welk. Mostly because I like it but I do think there is a tiny part in me that hates the idea that Lawrence Welk could or should go out of fashion. It's not the height of musical sophistication but it beats the other channels.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

bz3 said:


> I am in my early 30s and if I am home on Saturday evenings I always watch Lawrence Welk. Mostly because I like it but I do think there is a tiny part in me that hates the idea that Lawrence Welk could or should go out of fashion. It's not the height of musical sophistication but it beats the other channels.


Wow! Thanks for the memory! It's been decades since I've seen Norma the champagne lady, the lovely Lennon sisters, Myron on his accordion, and Bobby dancing with the smile that just won't quit. You've got bubbles bursting in my brain! And a one and a two...

:cheers:


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

bz3 said:


> I am in my early 30s and if I am home on Saturday evenings I always watch Lawrence Welk. Mostly because I like it but I do think there is a tiny part in me that hates the idea that Lawrence Welk could or should go out of fashion. It's not the height of musical sophistication but it beats the other channels.


As a younger person, not by much, I respected Lawrence Welk's show because of the musicianship. This was another era, in which skill counted. I remember a guy playing xylophone while tap dancing. The singers were my least favorite parts, but you could always see an electric guitarist playing parts. The show was quite entertaining on mushrooms, as well.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

Woodduck said:


> Wow! Thanks for the memory! It's been decades since I've seen Norma the champagne lady, the lovely Lennon sisters, Myron on his accordion, and Bobby dancing with the smile that just won't quit. You've got bubbles bursting in my brain! And a one and a two...
> 
> :cheers:


I had to watch this with my folks every Saturday night about 50 years ago. I had a major crush on the Mexican girl, and I envied the tall guy with the shiny blond hair. Hee Haw and Lawrence Welk on Saturday night!


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

Yeah, ha ha! And then, back to the bedroom to sneak a one-hitter by the open window, then mouthwash...


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

Wagner is a desert oasis. Beyond him, you eat sand.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

Couchie said:


> Wagner is a desert oasis. Beyond him, you eat sand.


To love Wagner, why must you destroy the world?


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

OperaChic said:


> Ever since my first introduction to and subsequent exploration of Wagner's music and art I've felt something uniquely seductive about his works that set him apart from most other composers or artists of any field for that matter. Although I still haven't been able to pin down what makes him so extraordinary, I'm sure it's a quality that all Wagnerians pick up on to some extent, and why he plays a significant role in our lives. I can see why in a sense his work _is_ *dangerous and potentially addictive.* It is so absorbing, so various, and seemingly so inclusive that it can be tempting to want to live life _through_ the music dramas themselves. They do contain a sort of thriling and vigourous energy that I imagine most people's lives lack on a day to day basis. It is an astonishing quality of Wagner's art that it can provide enough emotional and spiritual nourishment to make people feel like they possibly don't need anything else; however, taking this route is most certainly detrimental in the long run. Like most of my fellow Wagnerians I'm sure, I've discovered the true value of his operas is in their ability of to enrich life: they are full of revelations, directives and challenges which help me make better sense of my experiences and to think with renewed clarity on wider existential questions.
> 
> .


"Wagner's music is a drug; Verdi's is a tonic." (Peter Conrad - Verdi and/or Wagner)


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

DavidA said:


> "Wagner's music is a drug; Verdi's is a tonic." (Peter Conrad - Verdi and/or Wagner)


To love Wagner, why must you become a drug addict?


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

millionrainbows said:


> To love Wagner, why must you destroy the world?


Descend,
O Night of love,
grant oblivion
that I may live;
take me up
into your bosom,
release me from
the world!


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

OperaChic said:


> Ever since my first introduction to and subsequent exploration of Wagner's music and art I've felt something uniquely seductive about his works that set him apart from most other composers or artists of any field for that matter. Although I still haven't been able to pin down what makes him so extraordinary, I'm sure it's a quality that all Wagnerians pick up on to some extent, and why he plays a significant role in our lives. I can see why in a sense his work _is_ dangerous and potentially addictive. It is so absorbing, so various, and seemingly so inclusive that it can be tempting to want to live life _through_ the music dramas themselves. They do contain a sort of thriling and vigourous energy that I imagine most people's lives lack on a day to day basis. It is an astonishing quality of Wagner's art that it can provide enough emotional and spiritual nourishment to make people feel like they possibly don't need anything else; however, taking this route is most certainly detrimental in the long run. Like most of my fellow Wagnerians I'm sure, I've discovered the true value of his operas is in their ability of to enrich life: they are full of revelations, directives and challenges which help me make better sense of my experiences and to think with renewed clarity on wider existential questions.


It's simply the transcendental quality, the same quality of some drugs and religions, which lure in and entrance Wagnerians.


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## Music Snob (Nov 14, 2018)

I went from The Beach Boys to Mozart... and then to Wagner. What's next is a very tough question. I'm going to give Bruckner a shot.


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## Zhdanov (Feb 16, 2016)

listen to Wagner because he was one of those best who built the world to come as of 20th century on.


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## Larkenfield (Jun 5, 2017)

bz3 said:


> If you're a former addict, of which I know there are many, where did you go after your blurred obsession with Wagner?
> 
> I mean this sincerely and out of curiosity, I'm not interested in litigating the relative fandom of composers or whether Wagner had 'something wrong' with him. I mean plainly where did former Wagner obsessors go afterward?
> 
> ...


 I don't think it's any coincidence that both Wagner and Verdi were born in 1813. I see them as a necessary and valuable counterbalance to each other in life. I find them considerably different with Wagner wisely writing both the music and librettos, and Verdi writing something based on Othello, which I consider a masterpiece. Both portray the human condition in different ways and can benefit the understanding of each other. Both have greatly benefited the world with their respective outlooks and their own musical vocabularies. I don't believe in coincidences of birth.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Zhdanov said:


> listen to Wagner because he was one of those best *who built the world to come as of 20th century on.*


Built the world? As most people in the world have never heard of Wagner how come he built it? Come on, we've got to get out of our classical music bubble into the real world!


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Larkenfield said:


> I don't think it's any coincidence that both Wagner and Verdi were born in 1813. I see them as a necessary and valuable counterbalance to each other in life. I find them considerably different with *Wagner wisely writing both the music and librettos*, and Verdi writing something based on Othello, which I consider a masterpiece. Both portray the human condition in different ways and can benefit the understanding of each other. Both have greatly benefited the world with their respective outlooks and their own musical vocabularies. I don't believe in coincidences.


Wagner might have been better off if he'd have had help with his librettos. Verdi's are generally much better as he and his librettists were able to play off against each other. With Boito they reached a level of almost perfection


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## Reichstag aus LICHT (Oct 25, 2010)

Music Snob said:


> I went from The Beach Boys to Mozart... and then to Wagner. What's next is a very tough question. I'm going to give Bruckner a shot.


I'd suggest Mahler, if you haven't tried him already. Nothing wrong with Bruckner, but Mahler will "stretch" you a bit more.


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## Zhdanov (Feb 16, 2016)

DavidA said:


> As most people in the world have never heard of Wagner how come he built it?


since people never know anything then its no wonder they never heard of him.


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## Zhdanov (Feb 16, 2016)

Larkenfield said:


> Wagner wisely writing both the music and librettos


i don't believe he wrote librettos... well, at least someone helped him.

a man who created such music just would not have been able to write librettos so complex.

same for a man who penned such librettos wouldn't have been capable of composing music so grand.


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

^^He wrote both.


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

Zhdanov said:


> i don't believe he wrote librettos... well, at least someone helped him.
> 
> a man who created such music just would not have been able to write librettos so complex.
> 
> same for a man who penned such librettos wouldn't have been capable of composing music so grand.


And your evidence for this is?


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## Larkenfield (Jun 5, 2017)

Zhdanov said:


> i don't believe he wrote librettos... well, at least someone helped him.
> 
> a man who created such music just would not have been able to write librettos so complex.
> 
> same for a man who penned such librettos wouldn't have been capable of composing music so grand.


In all fairness to Wagner, you're just guessing. With regard to his major works that's something you could have easily looked up. It was a good move because he didn't have to put up with wretched and ridiculous librettos like so many other composers had to use. Whether one agrees with them or not, I think he made the right choice because at least they're involved and intelligent, what he wanted and was satisfied with, though also at times highly controversial. But sometimes it takes controversy to wake people up like art is capable of doing. His librettos also exposed others to the dark side of human nature, which everyone has whether they admit to it or not, because in order to feel alive sometimes you have to break rules, preferably without hurting others.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Wagner not only wrote his own librettos, but to a great extent he conceived words and music simultaneously. Who could possibly have collaborated on works of such vision and originality? Who could have found words to accommodate music of such technical complexity and expressive scope? Who but Wagner himself could have taken the rambling, sprawling romances of medieval literature and boiled them down into such terse, intense dramas? Given the diffuse raw material of old stories passed down in diverse forms, his works exhibit a remarkable clarity of purpose and unity of intention, and represent their composer in a personal way that few other operas do. Whatever his works say is what he meant to say.


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## Zhdanov (Feb 16, 2016)

Woodduck said:


> Who could possibly have collaborated on works of such vision and originality?


Ludwig II of Bavaria, perhaps?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ludwig_II_of_Bavaria#Ludwig_and_Wagner

who could possibly have built a theater for someone else if only to stage own work too?


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## Reichstag aus LICHT (Oct 25, 2010)

Wagner liked to have as much control as possible over the creative process, hence he wrote his own libretti.


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

So we have on one hand those who think that it would have been better if Wagner hadn't written his own libretti and had someone to help cut them down a bit and those who think he couldn't possibly have written them on his own!!!

Oh vay!

Ain't life wonderful. :lol:


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Barbebleu said:


> So we have on one hand those who think that it would have been better if Wagner hadn't written his own libretti and had someone to help cut them down a bit and those who think he couldn't possibly have written them on his own!!!
> 
> Oh vay!
> 
> Ain't life wonderful. :lol:


I think most people outside of the Wagner faction think his libretti leave something to be desired.


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

DavidA said:


> I think most people outside of the Wagner faction think his libretti leave something to be desired.


I think people other than Wagner haters think they're genius.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Itullian said:


> I think people other than Wagner haters think they're genius.


Interesting this emotive word 'hater' is now used quite freely to describe people from politicians to music lovers. Saying Wagner's libretti were not works of literary genius (which many people would agree they were not) does not make one a 'hater'. Just saying that his literary ability did not match his musical genius. Labelling people 'haters' tends to restrict debate.


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## WildThing (Feb 21, 2017)

DavidA said:


> Interesting this emotive word 'hater' is now used quite freely to describe people from politicians to music lovers. Saying Wagner's libretti were not works of literary genius (which many people would agree they were not) does not make one a 'hater'. Just saying that his literary ability did not match his musical genius. Labelling people 'haters' tends to restrict debate.


No one here has argued they are works of "literary" genius. Boito's and Da Ponte's libretti aren't works of "literary" genius, either. They are all masterly and effective as texts for musical drama, however.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

WildThing said:


> *No one here has argued they are works of "literary" genius.* Boito's and Da Ponte's libretti aren't works of "literary" genius, either. They are all masterly and effective as texts for musical drama, however.


I think you were missing the irony in my comment. However, some have come pretty close to arguing that. Certainly RW would have done!


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## Zhdanov (Feb 16, 2016)

DavidA said:


> Wagner's libretti were not works of literary genius


but they were, at least when compared with the others. Wagner's took it to completely another level.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

DavidA said:


> I think most people outside of the Wagner faction think his libretti leave something to be desired.


1.There is no "Wagner faction."
2. No one who does not speak German is in a position to know what Wagner's libretti leave to be desired.
3. Anyone who offers an opinion about an opera libretto without reference to the way its text and music interact - specifically, to how the former supports and enables the latter - is just blowing hot gas.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Zhdanov said:


> but they were, at least when compared with the others. Wagner's took it to completely another level.


Sorry disagree. They cannot compare with da Ponte or Boito imo


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

DavidA said:


> I think most people outside of the Wagner faction think his libretti leave something to be desired.


I think those outside of the Wagner faction couldn't care less.


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

WildThing said:


> No one here has argued they are works of "literary" genius. Boito's and Da Ponte's libretti aren't works of "literary" genius, either. They are all masterly and effective as texts for musical drama, however.


I would argue that Wagner's libretti are works of literary genius, along with (some of) Boito's and Da Ponte's.

I would also argue that Illica and Giacosa wrote superb libretti.

By the way, are those here who denigrate any or all of these libretti actually speak the original languages? If you are only going by translations then I can understand why you may think them inferior on a literary level.

N.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

Couchie said:


> Classical. CPE, Mozart, Haydn et. al. The taste and restraint


+



Couchie said:


> Wagner is a desert oasis. Beyond him, you eat sand.


=

"Classical is where you're restrained to tasting nothing but sand."


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## Agamenon (Apr 22, 2019)

Woodduck said:


> Wagner not only wrote his own librettos, but to a great extent he conceived words and music simultaneously. Who could possibly have collaborated on works of such vision and originality? Who could have found words to accommodate music of such technical complexity and expressive scope? Who but Wagner himself could have taken the rambling, sprawling romances of medieval literature and boiled them down into such terse, intense dramas? Given the diffuse raw material of old stories passed down in diverse forms, his works exhibit a remarkable clarity of purpose and unity of intention, and represent their composer in a personal way that few other operas do. Whatever his works say is what he meant to say.


Excellent reply. Bravo!


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## ScottK (Dec 23, 2021)

Woodduck said:


> *This came out a mess! I HAVE TROUBLE seeing which is you and which is me!*
> 
> Since someone woke this up and I've been eager to get back to Tristan, I want to question two of your points. I realize you all were in mid-debate but I also know that if you put it down you believe it, not just in this context, sooooo....
> 
> ...


 This makes me think of something I was told about, at least one version of, cooking school....that the chef's food would not be assessed for taste until it passed the test of visual appeal. The taste (the interaction of music and word) may be what the shouting is all about...the gold....the raison d'etre! But until the visual appeal is accompished (the story's hook) it's unimportant because the audience has not been drawn in.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

ScottK said:


> This makes me think of something I was told about, at least one version of, cooking school....that the chef's food would not be assessed for taste until it passed the test of visual appeal. The taste (the interaction of music and word) may be what the shouting is all about...the gold....the raison d'etre! But until the visual appeal is accompished (the story's hook) it's unimportant because the audience has not been drawn in.


Do you know how to fix the mess above - how to do quotes? It looks as if Wooduck has forgotten to take his schizophrenia medication and is arguing with his invisible friend, who is ten feet tall and has three eyes, webbed feet and a prehensile tail (don't ask me how I know that).


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

ScottK said:


> With a desire to appreciate Tristan as fully as I could, I've approached it earnestly and sincerely and come up dry and for MY EXPERIENCE, the major stumbling block was the libretto. I accept that the discussion of music/interaction is something potentially more profound in Wagner, but in terms of the story's need to bring me in - a conditon faced by all writers - why is Wagner in translation any different than Mozart, Verdi and Puccini in translation? Why is an opera lover not as justified in questioning a translated Wagner libretto, on at least one level, as they are in doing the same to verdi?


A friend to whom I gave the _Tristan_ libretto to read before listening to the opera, said: "I'll believe this when I hear it."


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## ScottK (Dec 23, 2021)

Woodduck said:


> Do you know how to fix the mess above - how to do quotes? It looks as if Wooduck has forgotten to take his schizophrenia medication and is arguing with his invisible friend, who is ten feet tall and has three eyes, webbed feet and a prehensile tail (don't ask me how I know that).


.....:lol::lol::lol:...........Now I did acknowledge that!!!!!

Usually I get away with it but clearly.....not here!


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## ScottK (Dec 23, 2021)

Woodduck said:


> A friend to whom I gave the _Tristan_ libretto to read before listening to the opera, said: "I'll believe this when I hear it."


You made that up!!!


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

ScottK said:


> You made that up!!!


The problem Wagner had in _Tristan_ was figuring out what T & I could talk about while they and the orchestra were pouring out a tsunami of passionate sound. In no other opera are the things to be expressed so fully the province of music and so inexpressible in words, once the situation has been explained by Isolde in Act 1 and once the passion-releasing potion has been drunk. As the most musical of all operas, _Tristan_ was a one-off that had to play by its own rules.


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## ScottK (Dec 23, 2021)

Woodduck said:


> The problem Wagner had in _Tristan_ was figuring out what T & I could talk about while they and the orchestra were pouring out a tsunami of passionate sound. In no other opera are the things to be expressed so fully the province of music and so inexpressible in words, once the situation has been explained by Isolde in Act 1 and once the passion-releasing potion has been drunk. As the most musical of all operas, _Tristan_ was a one-off that had to play by its own rules.


So, between the greatest hits...Prelude, Love Duet, Liebestod....you clearly find plenty of music that supports this way of approaching this music drama? Not meant to be a debate question....a real question.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

ScottK said:


> So, between the greatest hits...Prelude, Love Duet, Liebestod....you clearly find plenty of music that supports this way of approaching this music drama? Not meant to be a debate question....a real question.


Yes. ...........................................


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## aussiebushman (Apr 21, 2018)

DavidA said:


> I had a spell on Wagner but I have found other sorts of opera far more enjoyable to listen to. Handel operas for example. I was also put off Wagner by some of the people on TC who seemed to me to take him too seriously for my taste and appeared to think everyone should. For me opera is a hobby not to be taken too seriously. So Wagner on the back burner for the time being. Not suggesting this is true for everyone, of course, but you've asked people for their experience. If you're looking for something post-Wagner try the pure air of Handel.


"too seriously for my taste" What taste?


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## aussiebushman (Apr 21, 2018)

To put it bluntly, I have had a gutfull of David A for many years. His last post explains the reason


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

aussiebushman said:


> To put it bluntly, I have had a gutfull of David A for many years. His last post explains the reason


It's very pleasant, isn't it, to be able to take the things we enjoy seriously without being told, apparently quite seriously, that we're fools for doing so?

H. L. Mencken described puritanism as ""the haunting fear that someone, somewhere, may be happy." Apparently there's a sect that's particularly outraged when someone, somewhere, enjoys talking about the works of Wagner.


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

I thought that DavidA had ceased posting - at least in the guise of DavidA! Who knows though, he may well be lurking under a new name.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Barbebleu said:


> I thought that DavidA had ceased posting - at least in the guise of DavidA! Who knows though, he may well be lurking under a new name.


He has ceased to post in all incarnations, as far as I can tell. Member "Handelian" was banned permanently, and apparently the other members of the trinity (or quadrinity, or whatever) have decided to keep him company.

EDIT: A few hours after writing the above, I see that it wasn't "Handelian" but one of the other shapes of the shape-shifter that was banished. A durian fruit by any other name...


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

I think the word you are looking for is Cabal!


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## aussiebushman (Apr 21, 2018)

Music Snob said:


> I went from The Beach Boys to Mozart... and then to Wagner. What's next is a very tough question. I'm going to give Bruckner a shot.


You will not be disappointed with Bruckner. Just don't give up Wagner in the process!


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

aussiebushman said:


> You will not be disappointed with Bruckner.


Say that to Eddie:


hammeredklavier said:


>


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

Barbebleu said:


> Who knows though, he may well be lurking under a new name.


"Monteverdian" would be cool.


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## Sloe (May 9, 2014)

The greatest composer ever. He made enchanting music that is out of this world. The only problem is that his operas are too long to have time to see them live but I really think Richard Wagner created the most beautiful and exciting music ever. So I am not tired of his music yet.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

bz3 said:


> If you're a former addict, of which I know there are many, where did you go after your blurred obsession with Wagner?


This is a problem. After one listens to Wagner for a long time, all the other composers' operas seem to be way too short.


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## BBSVK (10 mo ago)

Not a big Wagner fan so far, but I feel this sentiment. Where to move on from Bellini ? Superficially, he is in the same box with Verdi, Donizetti and Rossini, so it should be easy. But it doesn't work quite as well as I have imagined.


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

BBSVK said:


> Not a big Wagner fan so far, but I feel this sentiment. Where to move on from Bellini ? Superficially, he is in the same box with Verdi, Donizetti and Rossini, so it should be easy. But it doesn't work quite as well as I have imagined.


Try Spontini's La Vestale (a sort of junior Norma).

Are you familiar with Mozart's main operas? 

Which is your favourite of Bellini's operas and why?

N.


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## BBSVK (10 mo ago)

The Conte said:


> Try Spontini's La Vestale (a sort of junior Norma).
> 
> Are you familiar with Mozart's main operas?
> 
> ...


I like Norma best, but it is sort of on the top of other things that were great already. Before I got to Norma, I found myself _actually crying_ at I Capuleti e i Montecchi. Il Pirata and La Sonnambula are also great. Beatrice di Tenda or La Straniera in certain mood. (I still owe I Puritani more attention, but Elvira is so annoying !).

Maybe I like slower tempo than e.g. Verdi would use in the equivalent dramatic situation and the tradition of very emotional singing (rubato ?). (I mean the average Bellinian tempo, "Mira o Norma" is too slow even for me).

I get similar satisfaction from Leonora's arias in il Trovatore, but don't feel like hearing the rest of the opera, I knew it well once. Also I like "Mon coeur s'ouvre a ta voix" and other Dalila's arias, but the rest of the opera is quite different.

I forgot to say, that the female characters in Bellini's operas are relatable in some weird way. Not that I would make the same decisions... Hard to explain. Verdi is more about fathers, I know exceptions exist but still...

Probably there are also some external factors. I forgot I like music for cca 15 years, and suddenly, in the midst of Covid, I attended the series of lectures about Bellini with a very enthusiastic teacher. So it was a good food after a long diet.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

Norma seems to get a lot of mention on this site, so I presume it is a huge favorite, but the story did not appeal to me. My top Bellini, as many on TC surely already know, is La Sonnambula. The only other Bellini I really like a lot is Capuleti Montecchi. The Puritans is pretty good, but I need to spend more time with it.


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## BBSVK (10 mo ago)

I even think of giving Wagner a serious chance. He liked Bellini a lot and always stayed away from criticism of him, so I am in a favourable mood. But now, I am in a lecture group about Meistersinger. I guess 3 people spoke, how they fell in love with Wagner simply by listening to the prelude of Meistersinger. I had it on the CD mixed with different stuff (a similar situation to one of my classmates), used to listen to it a lot and nothing happened !

I also used to listen to Tannhauser, Der Fliegende Hollaender and the mix of Wagner choruses. Some Wagner fans don't really count this stuff as Wagner  I liked those operas, but not in the fanatic way. The exalted style sometimes made me tired.


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## Yabetz (Sep 6, 2021)

SixFootScowl said:


> This is a problem. After one listens to Wagner for a long time, all the other composers' operas seem to be way too short.


That's very true. Wagner's work is like river that just keeps flowing along. He wants to say everything. You have to sit and listen to a complete opera and know the libretto pretty well or have it on hand. Just as I can't imagine not listening to Bach or Beethoven, I can't imagine not listening to Wagner.


BBSVK said:


> I guess 3 people spoke, how they fell in love with Wagner simply by listening to the prelude of Meistersinger.


That's actually sort of my experience. The first Wagner I ever heard as a wee child was the Meistersinger prelude. It was used as the theme for some program on the local classical station, and I loved it. Later on I tried my hand at piano reductions of selections from Tristan and Parsifal and then when I was older I listened to those in full, and then the Ring. I was hooked.


> The exalted style sometimes made me tired.


If you'll listen to Die Meistersinger you'll find that it's really not continually in an "exalted" style. There are conversational recitative-like passages. In the Ring a lot of dialogue and soliloquies are rather quiet, and also really perceptive in characterization...almost Shakespearean. But...when Wagner wants an exalted style he can pour it on like no other, that's for sure. Well, except for Bach.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

Barbebleu said:


> I thought that DavidA had ceased posting


Isn't it scary to think we're still under his influence? There are Wagner threads said to be "temporarily closed for repairs". For example, this one, from 2014, still remains closed-








I'm giving a talk on Wagner


How can you?................... Of course one can enjoy the music. Actually, what puts me off Wagner the most is the regarding of him as some sort of cultural (or more) messiah by the faithful. The problem with Wagner is that the power and the beauty of the music almost hypnotises us. It makes...




www.talkclassical.com




Anyway, here's some pure air of Handel, which he suggested as an alternative to Wagner in this thread-


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

BBSVK said:


> I even think of giving Wagner a serious chance. He liked Bellini a lot and always stayed away from criticism of him, so I am in a favourable mood. But now, I am in a lecture group about Meistersinger. I guess 3 people spoke, how they fell in love with Wagner simply by listening to the prelude of Meistersinger. I had it on the CD mixed with different stuff (a similar situation to one of my classmates), used to listen to it a lot and nothing happened !
> 
> I also used to listen to Tannhauser, Der Fliegende Hollaender and the mix of Wagner choruses. Some Wagner fans don't really count this stuff as Wagner  I liked those operas, but not in the fanatic way. The exalted style sometimes made me tired.


Try Lohengrin (I suggest the Abbado recording for a great cast in wonderful modern sound.)

N.


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

BBSVK said:


> I even think of giving Wagner a serious chance. He liked Bellini a lot and always stayed away from criticism of him, so I am in a favourable mood. But now, I am in a lecture group about Meistersinger. I guess 3 people spoke, how they fell in love with Wagner simply by listening to the prelude of Meistersinger. I had it on the CD mixed with different stuff (a similar situation to one of my classmates), used to listen to it a lot and nothing happened !
> 
> I also used to listen to Tannhauser, Der Fliegende Hollaender and the mix of Wagner choruses. Some Wagner fans don't really count this stuff as Wagner  I liked those operas, but not in the fanatic way. The exalted style sometimes made me tired.


I recommend this prelude. For Tchaikovsky, he considered Lohengrin the peak of Wagner's output. And this gorgeous, soft jellyfish of a prelude is so far removed from "Ride of the Valkyries", which is what most newbies think of when they think of Wagner.


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