# Names to avoid?



## pastafarian (Mar 13, 2011)

I found this piece in the Daily Telegraph: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/music/classicalmusic/6137471/100-Best-Classical-Recordings.html

And was struck by something towards the end:
"Names to avoid
Karajan, Ashkenazy, Kissin, Lang Lang, Maazel, Mrs Mills and Richard Clayderman. Forget you ever knew these people."

And then saw this just above it:
"Note down all the most obvious choices - for conductors: Karajan, Ashkenazy and Levine; for piano, Kissin and Lang Lang - and throw everything you have by them away. There are exceptions (Karajan's opera) but by and large these strutting maestros have bought space in your brains by being shrewd, not musical - though the two can go together (Bernstein)."

I've got recordings by Kissin and Lang Lang in my small-but-growing collection, and reading that article made me doubt the wisdom of buying those recordings. And I don't have anything conducted by Karajan, but I gather he's one of the greats. So I'm a bit confused by the recommendation to avoid those names - is that just a niche and slightly pretentious view, or is that advice worth taking?

Thanks in advance.


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## jhar26 (Jul 6, 2008)

Lang Lang is often ridiculed, but I've never taken the trouble to listen to him. As for guys like Karajan, Levine, Kissin, Ashkenazy,and Maazel - just ignore those coments. All of them have done both great and mediocre work, but at their best the're either excellent or at least respectable. The writer obviously is a believer in the "if you want attention just bash a few greats" tactic.


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## pastafarian (Mar 13, 2011)

Makes a lot sense, thanks!


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## Barking Spiderz (Feb 1, 2011)

I think I'll disagree with about Karajan and Ashkenazy big time. Karajan is an essential purchase for full symphony sets by LvB, Brahms and Tchaikovsky and R Strauss works for starters. Ashkenazy's Sibelius and Mendelssohn recordings are right at the top. 

This guy Toroni-Lalic is quite notorius for writing attention seeking bullsh*t if it was he who wrote this bit.
The choice of piano players if also daft as there's no Gilels, Andsnes, Perahia, Kovacevich..


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## Weston (Jul 11, 2008)

Barking Spiderz said:


> I think I'll disagree with about Karajan and Ashkenazy big time. Karajan is an essential purchase for full symphony sets by LvB, Brahms and Tchaikovsky and R Strauss works for starters. Ashkenazy's Sibelius and Mendelssohn recordings are right at the top.


I agree. Ashkenazy's Beethoven Piano concertos are among the best in my opinion. He seems to respectfully take a back seat to the composer -- if that makes any sense.


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## peeyaj (Nov 17, 2010)

Lang Lang is not a musician, he's a celebrity. I happen to own a bunch of his cd's and it's not even funny. He's too ''showy'' and he won't let the music came out. His personality outshone the composer and the music. He feels flat. I abhor it. Unless, he minimize that ''celeb status'' and let the musicianship came out, I won't change my opinion to him. Yuja Wang is guilty too!

For a good recommendation, you can't go wrong to Richter, Pollini, Uchida, Lupu, Horowitz, Schnabel, Arrau and Kempff.

I prefer Böhm and Walter to Karajan. Karajan's reading of Schubert's 8 and 9, lacks emotion and depth. But the Brahms' 4 is ahh-mazing..


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## Delicious Manager (Jul 16, 2008)

It's ALL a matter of opinion!


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## pastafarian (Mar 13, 2011)

Cheers again everyone. Sounds like that piece constitutes slightly pretentious and irresponsible journalism, especially if it's supposed to be a 'guide' to classical music (and therefore likely to be read by newcomers like me).

Lang Lang plays on my recording of Rachmaninoff's Piano Concerto No. 2. I love the piece, and that's the only recording I have of it, so I'm badly placed to judge Lang Lang for myself just yet (and the same is true of any other performer or conductor). I'm sure noticing the differences between performers will come with time.


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## jhar26 (Jul 6, 2008)

pastafarian said:


> Lang Lang plays on my recording of Rachmaninoff's Piano Concerto No. 2. I love the piece, and that's the only recording I have of it, so I'm badly placed to judge Lang Lang for myself just yet (and the same is true of any other performer or conductor). I'm sure noticing the differences between performers will come with time.


You will find that even those who have listened to classical music for years will often have very different opinions about many musicians and even composers. So don't be discouraged if you happen to like someone that others dismiss. A different opinion isn't necessarily a wrong one.


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## Barking Spiderz (Feb 1, 2011)

Delicious Manager said:


> It's ALL a matter of opinion!


no, it's all about some pseud CM hacks thinking they're being clever by knocking well respected CM artists. To dismiss Karajan, Levine and Ashkenazy in the same breadth as Clayderman and mrs Mills isnt funny just fatuous


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## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

Barking Spiderz said:


> no, it's all about some pseud CM hacks thinking they're being clever by knocking well respected CM artists. To dismiss Karajan, Levine and Ashkenazy in the same breadth as Clayderman and mrs Mills isnt funny just fatuous


Completely agree. I read the whole article and condescendingly smug weren't the words for it.


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## Polednice (Sep 13, 2009)

Given other ridiculous pieces of advice such as:

"Late 20th-century composers you should profess to like: Boulez, Messiaen, Ligeti, Grisey, Birtwistle, Stockhausen ... [_etc._]"

it seems less like a guide to good artists and their recordings, but rather about sounding sufficiently stuck-up in bad company.


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## Josiah (Feb 26, 2011)

I love Karajan and Ashkenazy, and Kissin is ok... I wouldn't listen to Lang Lang though I wanted to enjoy his piano playing because of his celebrity, but he has no musicality...


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## Josiah (Feb 26, 2011)

Also favorite quote from the article. "Only one instrument can survive on its own for long enough to sustain our interest and achieve any level of profundity: the piano." ...Really....REALLLYYYY?


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## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

Josiah said:


> Also favorite quote from the article. "Only one instrument can survive on its own for long enough to sustain our interest and achieve any level of profundity: the piano." ...Really....REALLLYYYY?


I wonder if the idiot who wrote that has ever heard Bach's Cello Suites, then.


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## World Violist (May 31, 2007)

Well I somewhat agree with this guy about Karajan (he did some good recordings; his Sibelius was particularly fine) and Lang Lang (absolutely nothing worth noting), but just about everything else in there looks like rubbish.


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## World Violist (May 31, 2007)

Oh, and I lost all credibility (I don't know why I had any left) right about here:

"Much Baroque music (1600-1750), essentially posh pop – neat melodies over big basses – attracts sell-out crowds of hippies, organic food wholesalers and Sloanes. The audience is splashy and flashy, the get-up as attention-seeking as the shrill trills coming from the stage. Early music (dawn of man – 1600) draws in a more consistent and genuinely bearded sort who just want to space out to Gregorian chant."

To quote Anna Russell: "I'm not making this up!"


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## Polednice (Sep 13, 2009)

Josiah said:


> I love Karajan and Ashkenazy, and Kissin is ok... I wouldn't listen to Lang Lang though I wanted to enjoy his piano playing because of his celebrity, but he has no musicality...


There's a Master Class video on YouTube somewhere of Daniel Barenboim taking Lang Lang's playing of Beethoven apart - it's quite fun


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## Ravellian (Aug 17, 2009)

I HATE Lang Lang. He drives me crazy just to look at him playing, not to mention his sound. I also hate Alfred Brendel - his pieces are completely devoid of feeling whatsoever, he just plays the notes written on the page and nothing more. 

I'm surprised he didn't bring up Horowitz on either the "recommended" or "avoid" lists. In my opinion, he's one of the most exciting and outstanding pianists who ever lived.


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## Conor71 (Feb 19, 2009)

As far as the artisits quoted in the article are concerned - I have many recordings by Herbert Von Karajan and Vladimir Ashkenazy (both as Conductor and Pianist) in my collection and enjoy them all.
I think I have only 1 or 2 recordings featuring Lang Lang or James Levine? - again I am happy with these recordings.
Dont own anything by Mrs Mills or Richard Clayderman so no comment there?.

I agree with Delicious Manager who has said already that its all just a matter of opinion - enjoy your recordings and have fun building up your CM collection! .


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## StlukesguildOhio (Dec 25, 2006)

Forget Karajan? Is this guy for real. Forget his recording of Strauss' _Last Four Songs_ with Gundula Janowitz, the _Rosenkavalier_ with Elizabeth Schwarzkopf, the great _Alpensinfonie_, the _Heldenleben_, and _Ariadne auf Naxos_ (also with Schwarzkopf)?! Forget Johann Strauss marvelous _Fledermaus_ again with Elizabeth Schwarzkopf? Forget the brilliant Mahler 6th and the _Ruckert_ and _Kindertotenlieder_ with Krista Ludwig? And what of his magnificent performances of Schoenberg's _Verklarte Nacht_ and the disc of Schoenberg, Berg, and Webern orchestral works? These are among the first truly serious efforts to present and play these works with as much passion and polish as was afforded any other composer. And what of his _Ring_ Cycle which stands alongside Solti's, his Wagner highlights, and his recordings of Wagner's _Parsifal_ and _Tristan und Isolde_... which have no rivals in my book? What of his recording of Haydn's _Creation_? Admittedly, its not an HIP recording... but with Wunderlich, Fischer-Dieskau, and Janowitz... as well as the Berlin Philharmonic at their peak it is a "must have" disc. And then we have his recordings of Bruckner's, Beethoven's, Sibelius', Brahms', and Tchaikovsky's symphonies which in each case are among the top choices. And we've barely touched on opera...

Reading the article I can only conclude that it is half tongue-in-cheek... offering advise for the potential individual wishing to pass himself or herself off as the true classical music aficionado... dismissing Karajan, praising historical recordings by Knappertsbusch, Keilberth, Boult, Barbirolli, Beecham, and Furtwangler as well as the Busch quartet, and Dutton and Testament labels. Seriously, there are a lot of good recordings recommended here; I have over 40 of them myself... but as noted above, my collection would be seriously hampered by the loss of Karajan.

I also hate Alfred Brendel - his pieces are completely devoid of feeling whatsoever, he just plays the notes written on the page and nothing more.

Clearly a hearing test is in order. Brendel's performances of Mozart's piano concertos and Schubert's _Impromptus_ (among other pieces) are among the finest.


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## Webernite (Sep 4, 2010)

Brendel plays some things very well, and I admire his attention to detail. You can tell that great care and planning goes into his performances. The problem is that he seems to lack natural talent: his sense of pulse, his technical ability, his musical intuition - they're all pretty mediocre. It's his sense of pulse, particularly, that ruins his playing for me. Most great pianists (Richter, Michelangeli, Horowitz, even Liszt) have a firm sense of pulse, which they deviate from _optionally_. I don't find that with Brendel.


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## peeyaj (Nov 17, 2010)

Much I admire Herr Karajan for his conducting, his Schubert's symphonies leave a lot to be desired. The symphonies, especially the Ninth did not have the raw vitality, the joyous sense of joy and the thundering emotions of Böhm's recording.

Brendel is one of the most intillegent living pianists. His interpretations of Schubert and Beethoven are superb artistry, comparable to Schnabel.

My only beef is..

*
WHERE ARE THE REPEATS IN THE D.960 SONATA!!!*

It's unforgivable and short-minded of him NOT to repeat those passages in the first movement. It's an amputation of a limb..


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## Josiah (Feb 26, 2011)

elgars ghost said:


> I wonder if the idiot who wrote that has ever heard Bach's Cello Suites, then.


That is what is so crazy, later in the article he praises the Bach Cello Suites...


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## Josiah (Feb 26, 2011)

Polednice said:


> There's a Master Class video on YouTube somewhere of Daniel Barenboim taking Lang Lang's playing of Beethoven apart - it's quite fun


I have seen that Youtube video


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

I think this is all a matter of opinion. One man's trash is another man's treasure, as the well-worn cliche goes. I'm just not sure why the journalist would put Richard Clayderman amongst those other names. Clayderman was more of an easy listening type of pianist, like Liberace or Yanni. I don't think that he really belongs in the classical category, unlike Lang Lang who does, despite the fact that many people see his style as being more like that of a showman than a true artist. But as jhar says, opinions differ, music is an art and not a science...


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## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

Josiah said:


> That is what is so crazy, later in the article he praises the Bach Cello Suites...


Oops! I must have missed that bit. But his original comment was very annoying!


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## toucan (Sep 27, 2010)

It's an advertisement:



> The CDs on these pages can be purchased at a discounted price through the Telegraph CD Shop


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## Edward Elgar (Mar 22, 2006)

Those lists are flawed. This forum could easily come up with better lists.

Karajan is my favorite conductor.


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## GraemeG (Jun 30, 2009)

I heard that Lang Lang played Ditters von Ditterdorf in Baden Baden.

Hello, is there an echo in here?

GG


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