# Cherubini--A Forgotten Master



## Logos (Nov 3, 2012)

This man was acknowledged by Beethoven as the greatest of all his contemporaries. He preferred his requiem even to Mozart's.

Weber said about him, "One of the few art-heroes of our time, whose name, as classic master, will shine brightly, and for ever, in the history of art."

His greatest opera, The Water Carrier (Les deux journées), is today practically unknown, yet Wagner named it, well into the 19th Century, as a staple of any good opera house. It was studied by Beethoven as he composed his own Fidelio.

Cherubini was also praised as one of the greatest masters of counterpoint in the classical period and wrote excellent didactic works.

Searching for recordings of Cherubini's Water Carrier (this was at one time considered the greatest opera since Mozart), I find practically nothing. His Medea is easier to find since Callas recreated the role so effectively. I can find no good reason for the total neglect of this man, who wrote so much fine music in a variety of genres, both sacred an secular.

I invite any of you to share your thoughts on this composer or information on good recordings.


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## bigshot (Nov 22, 2011)

I recently got the Cherubini Masses EMI box set (Muti and Marriner conducting). Haven't had a chance to really listen to it, but what little I did hear was good. The box was a deal at about a buck and a half a disk. Got it at Amazon.es (or was it Amazon.de?)


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

It's true that Beethoven said (in response to a direct question) that Cherubini was the greatest of his contemporaries. But either Rosen or Cooper, forget which, suggested that he had to think a bit to come up with the name of _anybody _he admired. 

Odd story: Cherubini, living in Paris, wrote his "Chant sur la mort de Joseph Haydn" in 1804 after Haydn's death was announced in a newspaper. Haydn was, of course, still alive and would remain so for another five years.

He became director of the Conservatoire in 1822, and later came into conflict with Berlioz, who treated him pretty roughly in his memoirs. Adolphe Adam wrote, "some maintain his temper was very even, because he was always angry."


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## ScipioAfricanus (Jan 7, 2010)

I have his string quartets. They are beautiful.


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## Logos (Nov 3, 2012)

Yes, I think the Berlioz remarks have a lot to do with his comparative obscurity nowadays.


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## clavichorder (May 2, 2011)

Logos said:


> Yes, I think the Berlioz remarks have a lot to do with his comparative obscurity nowadays.


Possibly. I was reading in Berlioz's Memoirs about his likely very biased accounts of Cherubini and their interactions. Berlioz, for all his story telling color(in both music and words) and ballsy assertions, was quite the exaggerator. Berlioz claimed in one instance that he had walked into the conservatoire music library through the "female entrance," Cherubini having imposed under his administration, a move to divide the sexes more. Berlioz for whatever reason was not privy to that information and Cherubini's underling informed him of it, and when Berlioz refused to conform(described as having happened in a manner that was likely exaggerated in its boldness), the servant went to Cherubini who personally came and in Berlioz's description was so mad he could not speak a coherent sentence(the things Berlioz said about his face were not very complimentary), and Berlioz claims to have been both cool and rebellious. He was definitely the latter, but the former casts that interaction way too much in the favor of Berlioz...still, gotta love the guy.

As for his music, I haven't explored it very extensively. I found his symphony to be over hyped, not as cohesive or unrelenting as Schubert or Beethoven by a long shot, though it had a nice melodic quality. I really doubt though that the symphony is a jewell in his output. I seem to recall liking a string quartet more.


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## Logos (Nov 3, 2012)

Yes, the masses, operas and quartets are really his claim to fame rather than the symphony, and as the anecdote you related suggests, he was quite an imperious personality and even seems to have overawed Beethoven on a few occasions which is something few could do.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Logos said:


> ...he was quite an imperious personality and even seems to have overawed Beethoven on a few occasions.


A reference for that last would be welcome. It's kind of hard to picture...


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## clavichorder (May 2, 2011)

Logos said:


> Yes, the masses, operas and quartets are really his claim to fame rather than the symphony, and as the anecdote you related suggests, he was quite an imperious personality and even seems to have overawed Beethoven on a few occasions which is something few could do.


Overawed Beethoven? Berlioz was definitely exaggerating in favor if that was the case. Beethoven who could tell off aristocrats...Then again, perhaps a composer with a tyrannical personality would be much more frightening to another composer than an aristocrat or even a dictator.


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## Logos (Nov 3, 2012)

Beethoven praised him but Cherubini mostly brushed him off, finding him uncouth and his piano playing "rough". "It makes me sneeze," is what he said about Beethoven's music. He didn't even like Fidelio which was modeled after his own work. Beethoven thanked him kindly for all his advice, which it's hard to imagine him doing in the case of anyone else. I find it fascinating that the 45 year old Beethoven looked up to this now forgotten composer who didn't even care for his work.


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## Logos (Nov 3, 2012)

After Fidelio, Cherubini sent Beethoven a textbook on vocal writing.

Of course, I don't mean to suggest with all this that Cherubini was a composer of Beethoven's stature taken in sum, but the former certainly had his merits.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Logos said:


> After Fidelio, Cherubini sent Beethoven a textbook on vocal writing.


Not a bad idea, though Beethoven may have felt insulted!


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## clavichorder (May 2, 2011)

A parallel can be drawn between Tchaikovsky and Taneyev, pretty strongly to a degree. Not only did Tchaikovsky defer very much to Taneyev's opinion on his work(realizing that he could trust no one else to be so impersonal, objective, and if necessary, outright harsh, in their criticism), but Taneyev was also a very effective school administrator like Cherubini, probably much more fair actually(I strongly suspect Taneyev was more of brilliant scholar/intellectual than Cherubini and probably had a broader minded view of the world), though with an equally iron hand. Last, both Taneyev and Cherubini were very intellectually disciplined with musical conventions of the past and it shows in their music as a strength. 

Three key differences though are that Tchaikovsky probably didn't admire Taneyev's music as much as Beethoven claims to have admired Cherubini's(though he certainly remarked on Taneyev's one of a kind precociousness with counterpoint and harmony as a student) and likewise Taneyev knew what a genius Tchaikovsky was, and also T & T were actually pretty good friends, and last, Taneyev was more or less a student of Tchaikovsky's at some point and not quite a generation younger.


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## Logos (Nov 3, 2012)

clavichorder said:


> A parallel can be drawn between Tchaikovsky and Taneyev, pretty strongly to a degree. Not only did Tchaikovsky defer very much to Taneyev's opinion on his work(realizing that he could trust no one else to be so impersonal, objective, and if necessary, outright harsh, in their criticism), but Taneyev was also a very effective school administrator like Cherubini, probably much more fair actually(I strongly suspect Taneyev was more of brilliant scholar/intellectual than Cherubini), though with an equally iron hand. Last, both Taneyev and Cherubini were very intellectually disciplined with musical conventions of the past and it shows in their music as a strength. Three key differences though are that Tchaikovsky probably didn't admire Taneyev's music as much as Beethoven claims to have admired Cherubini's and likewise Taneyev knew what a genius Tchaikovsky was, and also T & T were actually pretty good friends, and last, Taneyev was more or less a student of Tchaikovsky's at some point and not quite a generation younger.


An apt analogy. I think the key may be that Beethoven saw in Cherubini the strength and ease in those areas of composition where he knew himself to be lacking; namely, aspects of vocal writing and counterpoint.


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## clavichorder (May 2, 2011)

KenOC said:


> Not a bad idea, though Beethoven may have felt insulted!


Yeah, Beethoven's parts aren't very kind to the voice and aren't very "vocalistic." Doesn't mean that the music isn't brilliant though.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

clavichorder said:


> Yeah, Beethoven's parts aren't very kind to the voice and aren't very "vocalistic." Doesn't mean that the music isn't brilliant though.


As early as 1810 ETA Hofman spoke of Beethoven's vocal music as "less successful" than his instrumental works.

https://sites.google.com/site/kenocstuff/eta-hoffman-on-beethoven


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## Logos (Nov 3, 2012)

I can hear a lot of Beethoven's Egmont in this. A very successful overture in all aspects.


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## clavichorder (May 2, 2011)

Edit: I realize this is getting way off topic, but:



KenOC said:


> As early as 1810 ETA Hofman spoke of Beethoven's vocal music as "less successful" than his instrumental works.
> 
> https://sites.google.com/site/kenocstuff/eta-hoffman-on-beethoven


Cool article. I like Hoffman a lot, having read a short story of his that really struck me as powerful, but also just for being both extremely literary and musical. That's your website? You should link it in your signature, maybe its on your profile and I just haven't seen it yet.

"Beethoven's music sets in motion the machinery of awe, of fear, of terror, of pain, and awakens that infinite yearning which is the essence of romanticism. He is therefore a purely romantic composer. Might this not explain why his vocal music is less successful, since it does not permit a mood of vague yearning but can only depict from the realm of the infinite those feelings capable of being described in words?"

But one might argue that an opera libretto such as Fidelio is pretty good material for Beethoven. Its a very rich story in my opinion, and having heard the opera live and being able to confidently say that it was the best opera/opera performance I'd ever been to.* I don't know, I just really liked it.

*I've only been to 5 others though, 2 of which were Gilbert and Sullivan(Iolanthe was quite good musically though, but the other was Ruddigore...), one of which was a modern commissioned opera called Amelia and was in fact was the final stages dress rehearsal, another Lucia da Lammermoor(Donizetti) that was also dress rehearsal, and a production of the Magic Flute that though but the Seattle Opera, was not a performance or set-up that I liked.


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## Andreas (Apr 27, 2012)

I know Cherubini's symphony, his masses and requiems and his string quartets, and he strikes me as a master composer. His sound, to my ear, has a more refined and complex texture than Mozart's, Schubert's or Beethoven's (except for his last period). A wonderful blend of Italian leightness and Germanic density.

Apparently Glenn Gould adored Cherubini, while he had somewhat mixed feelings about Mozart, Schubert and Beethoven.


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## Logos (Nov 3, 2012)

As a man obsessed with counterpoint, I'm not surprised Gould found a great deal to admire in him.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

clavichorder said:


> That's your website?


Yeah, one of them. This one's on music only. I add stuff to it occasionally when I run into something interesting or worth saving.

People keep referring to 1810 as the year the term "classical music" was coined. Not sure where that comes from. But the essay you liked was from 1810, part of Hoffman's review of Beethoven's 5th Symphony for the AMZ (Leipzig). It's the first time I've seen the term "romantic" music used. Hoffman considered Haydn, Mozart, and Beethoven to be "romantic" composers, not the word we'd use today! But he has his logic.


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## Andreas (Apr 27, 2012)

KenOC said:


> People keep referring to 1810 as the year the term "classical music" was coined. Not sure where that comes from. But the essay you liked was from 1810, part of Hoffman's review of Beethoven's 5th Symphony for the AMZ (Leipzig). It's the first time I've seen the term "romantic" music used. Hoffman considered Haydn, Mozart, and Beethoven to be "romantic" composers, not the word we'd use today! But he has his logic.


As far as German literature is concerned (you mentioned Hoffmann), the classical era and the romantic era overlapped. They were coexisting ideologies for the most part. I think in music, there's a greater sense of progress and evolution because of formal/structural innovations. Also, "classical" in Hoffmann's time, implied looking back to ancient Greek literature for inspiration. This, I think, was not possible in music.


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## Lukecash12 (Sep 21, 2009)

Logos said:


> This man was acknowledged by Beethoven as the greatest of all his contemporaries. He preferred his requiem even to Mozart's.


Hmm... Did you mean his requiem in c minor? Cherubini wrote a couple of them, and some other masses as well. Though I'm not quite sure how many.






I do like this requiem better than Mozart's, particularly it's Dies Irae. It's early use of the cymbols stands as a memorable example of their use, and feels very appropriate. The voca me section and it's recapitulations were even more refreshing than that of Mozart, and that movement in general is just brilliant. Apparently, this was played at Beethoven's funeral service. It's my favorite requiem, too. Not just good, not just great, but masterful. He's one of the few I rank along with the likes of Bach.

By the way, Logos, I wonder if your username is a reference to the Greek word "logos".


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## Logos (Nov 3, 2012)

Yes, that is indeed the famous requiem, the one performed in honor of Louis XVI. Mozart's Dies Irae, although masterful, is perhaps a little too demonstrative and foreshadows, in my estimation, a lot of the immature, melodramatic church music of the 19th Century. Apparently as the actual force of religion diminished in the world, composers felt the need to get louder and louder to make up for their lack of sincerity. The one by Cherubini on the other hand is a real piece of old Roman sublimity that keeps a sacred kind of decorum. I think of him as a sort of classical Palestrina.

Both Mozart's and this requiem make up the pinnacle of the form as far as I can see.

And you're right about the name.


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## Schubussy (Nov 2, 2012)

This is the sort of thing I joined this forum for. Listening to his requiem in c minor now and it's fantastic.


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## Logos (Nov 3, 2012)

Schubussy said:


> This is the sort of thing I joined this forum for. Listening to his requiem in c minor now and it's fantastic.


Very glad to hear that. Best wishes in your listening.


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

Logos said:


> Yes, I think the Berlioz remarks have a lot to do with his comparative obscurity nowadays.


I would not think so at all.
Have you seen some of the stuff that composers have said about each other?


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## Logos (Nov 3, 2012)

You may be right, but Berlioz certainly paints him--pretty successfully--as a cantankerous, old fuddy-duddy.


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## Lukecash12 (Sep 21, 2009)

Logos said:


> You may be right, but Berlioz certainly paints him--pretty successfully--as a cantankerous, old fuddy-duddy.


Yet Beethoven literally considered him either an equal or maybe even superior, given his admiration of Cherubini's opera. And Beethoven's word I think would be regarded as more significant than that of Berlioz. Yet I doubt either of these men actually account for the obscurity of Cherubini today.


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## clavichorder (May 2, 2011)

Its a good point actually that composers say both nasty and positive things about each other and in some cases it hasn't had much to do with who gets the most play time these days. Chopin was pretty down on Schumann's music, but it doesn't seem to have affected Schumann too much. A number of composers, Tchaikovsky and Scriabin included have not had very nice things to say about the music of Brahms. But Brahms didn't seem to struggle too much even in Russia, though he did struggle greatly in France and Spain from what I've heard.


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## Stargazer (Nov 9, 2011)

I've listened to Cherubini's requiems and they're pretty good. Other than those it's been hard to find decent recordings of a lot of his stuff. I actually started trying to listen to him when a character in a book I was reading practiced singing songs from her "favorite opera by Cherubini"


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## Hassid (Sep 29, 2012)

The DGG box with his 6 string quartets by the Melos was IMHO not only the best recording of those extraordinary works, but one of the best string quartet recordings of all time.


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## Logos (Nov 3, 2012)

Brahms kept the likenesses of just 3 composers in his his study: Bach, Beethoven, and Cherubini.

Schumann said his reqiuem in C minor "stands without equal in the world".

Wagner said he was "certainly the greatest of musical architects, a kind of musical Palladio, rather stiffly symmetrical, but so beautiful and so assured".


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## Andreas (Apr 27, 2012)

Hassid said:


> The DGG box with his 6 string quartets by the Melos was IMHO not only the best recording of those extraordinary works, but one of the best string quartet recordings of all time.


Yes. And the DG set has been re-issued by Brilliant Classics. Great bargain all around. Here in Germany it sells for €10 compared to the (rediculous) original price of €80. Also tells you something about Cherubini's market value. And if it weren't for Naxos (as well as one vintage Toscanini recording) it'd be near impossible to obtain a recording of his Symphony.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Repeated from the "quotes" thread as it may be of interest here.

Napoleon Bonaparte: "My dear Cherubini, you are certainly an excellent musician; but really, your music is so noisy and complicated, that I can make nothing of it."

Luigi Cherubini: "My dear general, you are certainly an excellent soldier; but, in regard to music, you must excuse me if I don't think it necessary to adapt my compositions to your comprehension."

The author of the book this comes from adds, "This is said to have been the beginning of their estrangement."


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## clavichorder (May 2, 2011)

Holy cow! I just discovered this piece, and the first phrases immediately jump out at me. Very polished indeed.


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## Logos (Nov 3, 2012)

I like that concerto a great deal. Here's an interesting short discussion about the requiem.


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## Novelette (Dec 12, 2012)

Muti is an admirable proponent of Cherubini's works. The operas are outstandingly beautiful works. Haydn and Beethoven acclaimed Cherubini as their greatest contemporary in the decade of 1800, long before Cherubini began his sacred music--they knew him from Lodoiska and other operas.

KenOC, the dialogue between Napoleon and Cherubini that you quote occurred in 1797, before Napoleon's Egyptian Campaign and before the Consulship. He was only still a general, not yet the towering monument that he would later become, when this exchange took place at a Parisian opera house. One of Cherubini's early operas was being performed and the composer and the general just happened to share the same box, whereupon this exchange took place.

Still, there were to be far more slighting exchanged between those two when Napoleon was at the height of his power. It is curious, Napoleon almost invariably banished those who talked back to him in the manner to which Cherubini was accustomed. One wonders how much Napoleon truly disliked the man. There were even interspersed friendly, even tender, moments between these hostile exchanges.


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## Novelette (Dec 12, 2012)

An interesting group of passages regarding the relationship between Cherubini and Beethoven. Cherubini is widely reported to have had great contempt for Beethoven and his music and that the relationship between the two men was rocky and turbulent, reports which issue almost exclusively from Berlioz and Schindler respectively [both of whose credibility are increasingly questioned, although in Berlioz's case, it is his representations of Cherubini particularly that are questioned. In Schindler's case, a large swath of his reporting is questioned]. These passages come from the biography of Cherubini written by Edward Bellasis, published in 1912:

"Little weight is now attached to gossip chronicled by Schindler, i.e., that Cherubini's criticisms on Beethoven were harsh; that Beethoven did not always take them well; that he found a champion, even so late as the years 1841 and 1842, in Cherubini's wife; that when Cherubini spoke of him, he always ended by saying, "but he is always brusque"; that on his return to Paris his communications about _Fidelio_ showed "the slight opinion he had of it"; that he "was present at the earliest representation of _Fidelio_ in 1805, and also in 1806, and "told the musicians of Paris, when speaking to them about the overture to _Leonora_, No. 3, that on account of the medley of modulations in it, he was unable to recognize the original key." What were the above communications? A friend of the writer in the _Niederrheinische-Musik-Zeitung_ searched for them in vain among the Paris papers. The writer in question, speaking on the statement about the _Leonora_ overture, says: "For this decidedly remarkable assertion, Schindler gives no authority. What reliance ought to be placed on anecdotes and statements of this kind, related of eminent composers, and propagated by mere report, Schindler himself has found out, often enough, in the case of Beethoven." Cherubini is also credited with saying of Beethoven's symphonies, "It is impossible to understand all this; it is a mere _dévergondage_"; and Mendelssohn was informed that Cherubini remarked of Beethoven's later style, "This makes me yawn". Now what does all this weigh in contrast with deeds? In 1807, Cherubini led the first performance in Paris of Beethoven's 1st Symphony, and is seen actively forwarding at the Conservatoire, in the face of prejudices that have long since vanished, other performances of Beethoven's works."

From the same book appears on page 202:

"When Beethoven's Mass in D was being one day given, Berlioz spoke against the fugue "Et vitam". Cherubini, entering the corridor heard some discussion going on, and said, "What is it?" Some replied, "This fellow [Berlioz] doesn't like the fugue." "That is because the fugue doesn't like him," was Cherubini's retort.

Page 223, speaking of Cherubini's modesty:

"[D]uring a concert he attended, a piece by Beethoven being followed by his own overture to "L'Hotellerie Portugaise" he [Cherubini] remarked quite naturally: "I am now going to appear a very small boy."

Further, page 231:

"On Cherubini's and Mehul's recommendation, Habeneck was chosen conductor of the concerts ***, and between 1828 and 1862, there were 359 performances of works by Beethoven. And Cherubini's whole action as director of the Societé des Concerts shows his regard throughout for Beethoven; and it is recorded how one day Cherubini, becoming impatient with a pupil who, while describing to him [Cherubini] the performance of one of Beethoven's symphonies, said nothing about the merits of the composition, thus addressed him: "Young man, let your sympathies be first wedded to the creative, and be you less fastidious of the executive; accept the interpretation, and think more of the creation of those musical works which are written for all time, and all nations--models for imitation, and above all criticism."

"A number of concerts took place every year. No solos were allowed, and at Cherubini's orders the movable platform, rising step by step, just as it now stands, was built. At the first concert 9 March 1828, the "Eroica" symphony was performed, and found great favour among the pupils."

*** Footnote: "Cherubini was the chairman of the administrative and executive committee. Cherubini knew very well that Habeneck's object was the performance of the works of Beethoven. Had he entertained so poor an opinion of the latter as he is reported to have held, he certainly would not have promoted and arranged the whole affair with the zeal he did."


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## CypressWillow (Apr 2, 2013)

Schubussy said:


> This is the sort of thing I joined this forum for. Listening to his requiem in c minor now and it's fantastic.


Me too. Thanks for this.


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## Notung (Jun 12, 2013)

Any suggestions for my first listening of Cherubini? I'm always up for an underrated composer


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## Novelette (Dec 12, 2012)

Cherubini: Requiem #1 in C Minor -- Diego Fasolis: Radio Svizzera Italiana Orchestra & Chorus

Cherubini: Requiem #2 in D Minor -- Riccardo Muti: New Philharmonia Orchestra

Cherubini: String Quartets -- Melos Quartet

My personal recommendations of Cherubini's more essential works.


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## Melvin (Mar 25, 2011)

This thread is awesome.


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## Dustin (Mar 30, 2012)

Wow thank you for this thread! I just pulled up his string quartets on Spotify and I immediately really like them. Never heard him before today.


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## Novelette (Dec 12, 2012)

Dustin said:


> Wow thank you for this thread! I just pulled up his string quartets on Spotify and I immediately really like them. Never heard him before today.


Glad you like them!  An undeservedly neglected composer, that Cherubini.


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## Andreas (Apr 27, 2012)

I don't know but it seems that both Beethoven and Cherubini were, in a way, victims of Rossini's rise to fame around 1815. Beethoven went into a crisis (from which, of course, he emerged magnificently), and Cherubini turned his back on opera and concentrated on sacred music (if by choice or by necessity, I don't know).

Personally, I almost want to thank Rossini for that - if indeed he is to "blame" for that.


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## Novelette (Dec 12, 2012)

Andreas said:


> I don't know but it seems that both Beethoven and Cherubini were, in a way, victims of Rossini's rise to fame around 1815. Beethoven went into a crisis (from which, of course, he emerged magnificently), and Cherubini turned his back on opera and concentrated on sacred music (if by choice or by necessity, I don't know).
> 
> Personally, I almost want to thank Rossini for that - if indeed he is to "blame" for that.


Cherubini's career has a particular parallel with that of Handel: plagued by repeated failures [that is, poorly received by the public, between 1800 and 1809] on the stage, he turned instead of sacred music. Napoleon repeatedly blocked Cherubini's ambition for profitable or official posts, and there seemed little recourse for Cherubini but in sacred music. Though Cherubini still produced some operas after the beginning of 1809, the year in which his church music career properly began, and indeed won praise from none other than Napoleon himself, Cherubini's fortunes on account of opera did not ultimately improve [that is, he earned large payments for the later operas, but was still unable to secure official or reliably profitable positions because of the remaining ill will from Napoleon toward Cherubini].

The first major mass [note, he composed a few masses in his very early days while still a pupil in Italy, but these works have not survived] was produced in 1809, the F Major "Chimay" Mass. Cherubini sought refuge from stressful events in the capital in the town of Chimay where, having taken hiatus from music, he was free to pursue his special interest in botany: gardening, drawing diagrams of various plants and vegetables, and drawing pastoral scenes [he was an amateur artist]. The local town church had a full choir available and wished to perform a full mass for the Festival of St. Cecilia with accompanying [meager] ensemble [consisting of string quartet, one bassoon, one flute, two clarinets, and two horns] and availed themselves of the opportunity to solicit the great master. Reluctant at first, Cherubini agreed to compose this mass.

Such was the impression that the exuberant reception left upon Cherubini's mind by the villagers, that he decided to re-orchestrate the mass for full orchestra and had its polished incarnation performed in Paris where it was received with rapture. Cherubini's status as a monumental composer of sacred music was instantly secured, and the rest, as they say, is history.

Yet Cherubini did not completely swear off composing operas. Later operas, such as Pimmalione and Les Abencerages [my personal favorite], did much to please Napoleon, who paid handsomely for them, yet the relationship between the two men failed to warm by any substantial degree and Napoleon continued to block Cherubini from obtaining lucrative musical positions. The last opera of Cherubini's is Ali Baba, his longest opera by far and an ultimate failure. Shortly thereafter the composer died, widely acclaimed at that time as the greatest composer of sacred music of that century. It mostly happened before Rossini's fame became so great, but no doubt Rossini's successes only added to Cherubini's reluctance to put forth new stage works.

Rossini and Cherubini enjoyed a hearty friendship, although one can hardly imagine two men of a more different temperament: the reserved and austere Cherubini and the boisterous and energetic Rossini. An interesting report of Rossini going to visit Cherubini:

"He [Rossini] who brought with him life, movement, and gaiety; he whose beaming and sonorous laugh, and meridional fluency of speech, together with his vibrating and re-echoing voice, came to disturb [Cherubini's house] with a sort of violence the ordinarily discreet echoes of the always calm and half-silent household [of Cherubini] was Rossini--Rossini, then in all the prime of age and health, jocose by nature and by taste; an inexhaustible narrator of good stories, never at a loss for anecdotes and piquant tales; a man who appeared unable to look at anything seriously; who had always a bit of sly malice to slip into the conversation, and whom two men only, Cherubini and Boieldieu, could induce to speak of art in a reasonable manner, and without laughing at people."

The above anecdote was taken from Joseph Bennett's 1890 biography of Cherubini.


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

MEDEA. It has been announced that scientists have managed to uncover the last aria from Medea.
Cherubini had blacked it out and so it has been lost to us for all these years.


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## jurianbai (Nov 23, 2008)

Cherubini also teacher to some notable composers, such as Mendelssohn. When I read Mendelssohn's book, here some of interesting passage.

link to google books


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## Novelette (Dec 12, 2012)

moody said:


> MEDEA. It has been announced that scientists have managed to uncover the last aria from Medea.
> Cherubini had blacked it out and so it has been lost to us for all these years.


Fascinating, Moody! I didn't know about this until you mentioned it; thank you!

For anyone interested, there is information here.


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## Novelette (Dec 12, 2012)

jurianbai said:


> Cherubini also teacher to some notable composers, such as Mendelssohn. When I read Mendelssohn's book, here some of interesting passage.
> 
> link to google books


Enjoyable to read, the Cherubini biographies I've read didn't elaborate on the details of Mendelssohn's relationship with Cherubini other than the unexpected praise Cherubini uttered. High praise indeed from a man who, upon the death of a Conservatory oboist, could say only: "Well, he hadn't any tone."

Smooth, Luigi! With manners like that....


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

I just discovered Cherubini and love his Missa Solemnis No 2 D minor
Here is an excellent video of it conducted by Helmuth Rilling


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## kangxi (Jan 24, 2014)

Hey all - nice thread! It prompted me to listen to Medea (Serafin / Callas) this morning. Gorgeous stuff. I'd love to hear it with the newly discovered music recovered from the inky mass of Cherubini's deletions (thanks for the info, Moody). 
Have any of you heard his keyboard music? It's not even mentioned in the Wiki article. I have 6 sonatas and 2 other pieces, played by the indefatigable Pietro Spada (he of the complete Clementi). It's the 2 other pieces that are truly remarkable. THe first is a fantasia for pf or organ, lasting about 10 minutes. But the eye-opening piece is a capriccio, lasting for nearly 40 mins. I first heard it on an early evening program in Radio [BBC] 3 presented by Fritz Spiegl, who was extremely industrious in ferreting about in the dusty forgotten corners of classical music (he introduced me to Pinto & Arriaga when they were otherwise unknown). As he said in his intro to this piece, it's just a stream of free flowing improvisation that sounds decades before its time. Well worth a listen if you can find it.


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## science (Oct 14, 2010)

Novelette said:


> Fascinating, Moody! I didn't know about this until you mentioned it; thank you!
> 
> For anyone interested, there is information here.


When anyone hears of this being recorded, please let us know!


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## Vinyl (Jan 22, 2014)

Whoa. I'm playing his string quartets (1 and 2), and saying that this music inspired Beethoven is hardly an exaggeration! 
Beautiful and intimate music, certainly, but my first impression is that this is so much like early/mid LVB that it is almost a bit embarrassing. 
Melos quartet playing beautifully on an Archiv recording from 1973.


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## kangxi (Jan 24, 2014)

science said:


> When anyone hears of this being recorded, please let us know!


Seconded! Medea is a magnificent opera. and a significant alteration or addition such as this deserves to enter the canon asap. And anyway, I want to hear it.


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## Novelette (Dec 12, 2012)

science said:


> When anyone hears of this being recorded, please let us know!


Keeping my eyes [and ears!] open for that. Maybe a TC poll will remedy our needs, since they seem to be held in such tremendous esteem?


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Arturo Toscanini recorded the Cherubini Requiem. It must be good. Have to explore.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

Schubussy said:


> This is the sort of thing I joined this forum for. Listening to his requiem in c minor now and it's fantastic.


I bought the Muti CD for the Verdi, but the Cherubini is a mind blower! Great one-two punch!


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

starthrower said:


> I bought the Muti CD for the Verdi, but the Cherubini is a mind blower! Great one-two punch!


Almost unbeatable .


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## DaveM (Jun 29, 2015)

There's some nice stuff in Cherubini's Medea:


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Eileen Farrell-Medea Finale-"Del fiero duol...E che? Io son Medea!", 
I like a more dramatic voice.


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## gardibolt (May 22, 2015)

Anyone know of any recordings since the uncovering of the ending of Medea in 2013 that include the previously-missing ending? I did a quick check of Amazon and didn't see any recordings newer than 2013.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

gardibolt said:


> Anyone know of any recordings since the uncovering of the ending of Medea in 2013 that include the previously-missing ending? I did a quick check of Amazon and didn't see any recordings newer than 2013.


That's right, this one is the latest as far as I recall :
http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/r/Bel+Air+Classiques/BAC076


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## Xaltotun (Sep 3, 2010)

I love his string quartets and his requiem in c minor, but my favourite work of his is his Messe Solennelle no. 2 in d minor. I just can't tire of it and I can listen to it in any mindset.


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