# Where are the best cities across the globe for classical music communities?



## MenoMosso (7 mo ago)

I have heard that NYC, Paris, Tokyo, London, and Berlin are the "top five" cities for classical music. Obviously, a number of other major cities could easily be rattled off.

In what other cities might one find numerous classical music schools, chamber groups, symphonies, etc.?


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## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

Vienna, of course, probably still more important than Paris or Tokyo. Among smaller cities, Cologne used to be a "hub" for baroque music since the 1960s, with several ensembles centered around the Musikhochschule and the West German radio but I am not sure if this is still the case to such an extent. Amsterdam would also be a candidate with the Concertgebouw and a lot of baroque/early music groups centered there. 
Dresden and Munich have each also one of the top operas in the world and at least another relevant orchestra (Dresden Staatskapelle and Philharmonie, Munich Philharmoniker, Bavarian Radio and Staatsorchester (opera)) with long traditions, especially in Wagner and Strauss.


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## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

I would certainly put San Francisco and Boston in that group. Besides the well-known orchestras, there are many other regional groups that are very fine indeed. And opera, ballet, music schools. Chicago belongs, too. Lots for a classical fan to do.


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## haziz (Sep 15, 2017)

I am not sure I would put any US cities in that list. While many US cities have excellent, well paid orchestras (certainly much better paid than their European counterparts), I still get the impression that classical music still occupies a bigger niche in Europe. It is a niche market on both sides of the Atlantic, but I think in Europe it still occupies a bigger niche.

I have no data or numbers to back me up. This is more of a hunch.


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## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

Classical music should occupy a bigger niche in Europe; classical music is an European art form. And it doesn't hurt that in every European country that opera, symphony, ballet and classical radio is subsidized by the government. And to the non-listener, the classical music scene in many American cities is invisible. There are so many entertainment options that orchestras need to compete with. What the US lacks is a significant opera scene; outside of New York opera is really minimal. Where the US really shines is the staggering number of top-notch summer festivals. Just Colorado alone has the MahlerFest, Vail, Aspen, Music in the Mountains (Durango), the Colorado Music Festival in Boulder...then a short drive to Santa Fe and you have a world-class summer opera season. Or take a day trip to Jackson, Wyoming and the Grand Teton Festival. And that's just one small area in the American Southwest. It's nothing like the London Proms to be sure, but it ain't bad! The sad thing is that some of these festivals, Vail and Aspen in particular, are getting prohibitively expensive for the average person; London has done a terrific job of keeping ticket prices down.


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## Nate Miller (Oct 24, 2016)

haziz said:


> I am not sure I would put any US cities in that list. While many US cities have excellent, well paid orchestras (certainly much better paid than their European counterparts), I still get the impression that classical music still occupies a bigger niche in Europe. It is a niche market on both sides of the Atlantic, but I think in Europe it still occupies a bigger niche.
> 
> I have no data or numbers to back me up. This is more of a hunch.


...maybe even a prejudice

that fello is right, Boston has not only the Boston Pops, but also the New England Conservatory and Berkley Music are there, too. Big schools of music make for big music communities. Two big-time music schools and a world famous orchestra and you wouldn't even list them? ...really?


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## Nate Miller (Oct 24, 2016)

while we're on the subject, Toronto is a fantastic music city. Their opera company is the real deal

and Cleveland Ohio....one of the best symphonies in the world and the Cleveland Institute of Music


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## haziz (Sep 15, 2017)

Nate Miller said:


> ...maybe even a prejudice
> 
> that fello is right, Boston has not only the Boston Pops, but also the New England Conservatory and Berkley Music are there, too. Big schools of music make for big music communities. Two big-time music schools and a world famous orchestra and you wouldn't even list them? ...really?



I live in western Mass. about 80 minutes from Boston and 40 minutes from Tanglewood, and used to attend Tanglewood quite frequently and Boston a little less before COVID, so I am fairly familiar with the music scene in Boston. It certainly is a fun and diverse city with a much greater cultural impact than it's size would suggest, but I am not sure how it would compare to many European capitals. London seems able to support 4 major orchestras (and several other smaller outfits) and 2 storied conservatories. Berlin and indeed most German cities seem able to support a bewildering array of orchestras and a vibrant classical music scene. Of course both London and Berlin are much larger cities that are also their nation's capitals.

As only an occasional tourist in Europe (before COVID), I am the first to admit that all of this boils down to a very superficial impression. I was less impressed with the classical music scene in Madrid and Rome but then again this is during very brief tourist trips.

Just an impression with very little data to back it up.


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## Nate Miller (Oct 24, 2016)

haziz said:


> I live in western Mass. about 80 minutes from Boston and 40 minutes from Tanglewood, ....


well, if you live here, then I'm ok with what you are saying. Its your country, too


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## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

The main difference between Europe (or actually some of Europe, mostly Germany, Austria, Switzerland, maybe some of Italy and some small countries) and e.g. the US (or the rest of the world) is not the "metropoles" (they are usually provided well with opera/concerts in most countries) but the many smaller cities with full scale opera houses.
Both Germany and Italy have almost always been non-centralized, they weren't unified countries until the mid-19th century, therefore many cultural centers beyond the capital or largest cities.
And even beyond that, you have towns below 100k population with regular opera performances. 

Berlin is a special case because it was divided for decades and both sides wanted to present it as a cultural powerhouse. That's why you got 3 operas (the oldest one, Staatsoper "unter den Linden" in the former East, the Eastern "Komische Oper" and the post-war Western "Deutsche Oper") and additionally orchestras like the Berlin Philharmonic, the Radio orchestra and another one.
And because of the many Radio stations, other large German cities also have one "traditional" orchestra from their opera or Philharmonic AND additionally a radio orchestra, e.g. Frankfurt (Hessian Radio, Hamburg (North German Radio), Leipzig (Gewandhaus + Radio), Munich, Cologne (Gürzenich (which is the name of the concert hall) + radio)


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## GraemeG (Jun 30, 2009)

I think it's hard to go past London and Berlin as top of the tree, for sheer number of first-class ensembles of all sorts.


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## MenoMosso (7 mo ago)

haziz said:


> I am not sure I would put any US cities in that list. While many US cities have excellent, well paid orchestras (certainly much better paid than their European counterparts), I still get the impression that classical music still occupies a bigger niche in Europe. It is a niche market on both sides of the Atlantic, but I think in Europe it still occupies a bigger niche.
> 
> I have no data or numbers to back me up. This is more of a hunch.


I think the public are far more exposed to classical music in Europe (which is wonderful) than in the US (which is a bit heartbreaking).

I worked in Milan, Italy for a month, and I remember that everywhere I went in the public square—the malls, the supermarkets, etc.—classical orchestral music was playing on the sound system everywhere. It was so beautiful and refreshing to be in the company of the public with Vivaldi raining down on all of us from the ceiling. When I returned to the US, I was again subjected to horrific 80s and 90s alternative. The only "public square"-type place I've been in the US that played classical music was Harris Teeter grocery stores on the East Coast, which... many kudos to them.

The difference is stark.


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## Rogerx (Apr 27, 2018)

GraemeG said:


> I think it's hard to go past London and Berlin as top of the tree, for sheer number of first-class ensembles of all sorts.


I would put Amsterdam before London.


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## PeterKC (Dec 30, 2016)

You might be surprised by my answer. Kansas City

One of the nation's finest performing venues (Kauffman Center for Performing Arts)
A very fine professional orchestra (Kansas City Symphony/Michael Stern)
A professional and nationally regarded ballet (Kansas City Ballet)
A very capable Opera Company (Lyric Opera of Kansas City)
A world class choral ensemble (Kansas City Chorale/Charles Bruffy)
Three of the larger pipe organs in the Western hemisphere with a group of brilliant organists
A fine conservatory of music with two enviable composers/professors in residence (University of Missouri Kansas City/Chen Yi, Zhou Long)
An international school of music (ICM at Park University/Stanislav Ioudenitch)
At least 8 annual subscription classical performing series.

Add to that a world-renowned art museum (Nelson-Atkins Museum of Art)
Two nationally respected modern art museums (Kemper/Nermann)
An active and vibrant Jazz scene

Are we NY, Paris, London, or Vienna. Nope, but for a flyover city in the middle of the US, we are awash in riches, and I am glad to be here.


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## composingmusic (Dec 16, 2021)

MenoMosso said:


> I think the public are far more exposed to classical music in Europe (which is wonderful) than in the US (which is a bit heartbreaking).
> 
> I worked in Milan, Italy for a month, and I remember that everywhere I went in the public square—the malls, the supermarkets, etc.—classical orchestral music was playing on the sound system everywhere. It was so beautiful and refreshing to be in the company of the public with Vivaldi raining down on all of us from the ceiling. When I returned to the US, I was again subjected to horrific 80s and 90s alternative. The only "public square"-type place I've been in the US that played classical music was Harris Teeter grocery stores on the East Coast, which... many kudos to them.
> 
> The difference is stark.


Yes, and classical music is seen as less of an elite pursuit as in the US. A big factor for this is state funding – in Europe, classical music is subsidized in a way that you don't see in the US. As a result, there are more ensembles, the repertoire is more diverse because orchestras and ensembles are less incentivized to cater to rich donors, and ticket prices are much more reasonable. People also seem to be much more open to contemporary classical music as well. For context, I've lived in both Europe (mainly in two countries) and in the US.


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## PeterKC (Dec 30, 2016)

From WIKI:

There were 1,224 symphony orchestras in the United States as of 2014. Some U.S. orchestras maintain a full 52-week performing season, but most are small and have shorter seasons.[1][2] As of 2007, there were 117 U.S. orchestras with annual budgets of $2.5 million or more.[3] 

I don't think most Americans would agree with the contention that we find classical music elitist.


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