# Brahms 1st piano concerto - greatest post Beethoven 19th cent piano concerto?



## LancsMan

Just listening to CD review and Brahms 1st Piano Concerto. This is my favourite post Beethoven 19th century piano concerto (Brahms 2cnd is too middle aged). I've heard that even Britten (a notorious dis-liker of Brahms) liked it.

Any way in my book there's no competition!!!!


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## Art Rock

I prefer Schumann and Grieg over Brahms. In fact, I prefer both over Beethoven's five.


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## Garlic

What recording are you listening to? 
It's great, but overall I prefer the 2nd - what do you mean by too middle aged?
I like both more than any of Beethoven's concertos.


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## joen_cph

The 1st PC has been a steady favourite among Brahms` works for me too. 

Horowitz/Walter, Manz/Mandeal and Woodward/Masur are some of my most treasured recordings. The first one mentioned has swifter tempi than usual, which I suspect were more customary in Brahms own time than now, and the last two are overall more conventional recordings.


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## LancsMan

Garlic said:


> What recording are you listening to?
> It's great, but overall I prefer the 2nd - what do you mean by too middle aged?
> I like both more than any of Beethoven's concertos.


I was listening to a comparative review of several recording - I myself have the Clifford Curzon with the LSO under George Szell.

What do I mean by too middle aged? Brahms orchestration can sometimes be rather full (overweight?) and this is more the case in the second. The first is much leaner. Plus the second seems to have mellowed out (well certainly in the slow movement) - is mellowing out part of the aging process?

All I know is the first is young man's music and it grabs me by the throat in a way the second just doesn't - much as I like it too.
.


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## Vesteralen

Brahms' 1st has always been my favorite piano concerto as well. It is a young man's work emotionally, but not technically. There is more of a mellow nature to the 2nd, but it also has its impassioned moments, and as a composition it is marvelous in the way it builds itself on fragments. 

By the way, I have listened to many versions of the 1st over the years, but for my money, Curzon/Szell has always been the best in spite of the heavy breathing in the second movement.


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## Ukko

The single long-stemmed rose on the keyboard.


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## moody

Vesteralen said:


> Brahms' 1st has always been my favorite piano concerto as well. It is a young man's work emotionally, but not technically. There is more of a mellow nature to the 2nd, but it also has its impassioned moments, and as a composition it is marvelous in the way it builds itself on fragments.
> 
> By the way, I have listened to many versions of the 1st over the years, but for my money, Curzon/Szell has always been the best in spite of the heavy breathing in the second movement.


The heavy breathing is Szell


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## DavidA

The Brahms first piano Concerto is certainly a titanic piece. But it needs a titanic performance to bring it off. Like Serkin with Szell or Curzon also with Szell. The second is not middle aged unless made to sound that way. Try Richter and Leinsdorf for how it should sound or Serkin's early recording with Ormandy - full of fire! Interesting that although the Gilels / Jochum is highly rated his earlier version with Reiner is far more up tempo and therefore better.


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## Ukko

LancsMan said:


> Just listening to CD review and Brahms 1st Piano Concerto. This is my favourite post Beethoven 19th century piano concerto (Brahms 2cnd is too middle aged). I've heard that even Britten (a notorious dis-liker of Brahms) liked it.
> 
> Any way in my book there's no competition!!!!


I'm pretty sure you haven't heard 10% of the 'competition'. A survey of Michael Ponti's recordings would up that percentage.


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## joen_cph

.... or, likewise in the 2nd, try Horowitz/Toscanini or Manz/Mandeal (with Manz, the 2nd Concerto lasts around 44 mins). There´s also the old Rubinstein/Coates from the 30s (40mins), but the sound is dated and the playing somewhat irregular.


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## DavidA

Just listened to CD review. Very good overall review by Harriett Smith. Must listen again to the Freire / Chailly again.


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## Itullian

Barbirolli/Barenboim for me.


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## GodNickSatan

Certainly one of my favourite works. I'd put it right alongside Beethoven's 4th piano concerto.


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## moody

You want a young man's approach to both concertos, then try Leon Fleischer with George Szell.
A very great Brahms pianist who died much too young was Julius Katchen, his recordings of all the piano music still set the standard, his recordings of the concerti are terrific.


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## ShropshireMoose

moody said:


> You want a young man's approach to both concertos, then try Leon Fleischer with George Szell.
> A very great Brahms pianist who died much too young was Julius Katchen, his recordings of all the piano music still set the standard, his recordings of the concerti are terrific.


I've not heard Fleisher's recordings, something of a serious omission which I must take steps to rectify. I still think, of the ones I have heard, that Rubinstein's recording of the 1st with Reiner and the Chicago Symphony Orchestra is an outstanding performance (which I have gone on about at length somewhere else!) Solomon's recording of the 2nd with Dobrowen and the Philharmonia is a good strong performance, I also like Backhaus's late recording with Bohm and the Vienna Philharmonic, it has a warm feel to it which I, personally find very enticing, and Brahms' orchestration certainly doesn't sound overweight to my ears at any rate.


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## DavidA

moody said:


> You want a young man's approach to both concertos, then try Leon Fleischer with George Szell.
> A very great Brahms pianist who died much too young was Julius Katchen, his recordings of all the piano music still set the standard, his recordings of the concerti are terrific.


I've just bought a complete set of Fleischer's recordings. His Brahms is young and fiery - as it should be. Performances up there with the very best. He really was a remarkable young pianist before his hand crocked.


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## StlukesguildOhio

I like Fleisher/Szell and Gilels/Jochum.


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## Ukko

Rubinstein/Leinsdorf/BSO. ( Serkin/Szell/Cleveland for #2)


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## hreichgott

Spelling is Fleisher if you go a-searching.


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## ShropshireMoose

hreichgott said:


> Spelling is Fleisher if you go a-searching.


I've edited accordingly!


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## DavidA

There is an ancient recording of the 1st from Backhaus who actually knew Brahms. He takes ot faster than most. A sign Brahms intended it to move swiftly rather than the leaden tempi sometimes adopted.


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## Vaneyes

Re Brahms PC1, do audition the Douglas/LSO/Skrowaczewski (RCA, rec.1988), if you haven't. A blistering, take-no-prisoners account, which ideally suits this work, IMO. :tiphat:


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## DavidA

Vaneyes said:


> Re Brahms PC1, do audition the Douglas/LSO/Skrowaczewski (RCA, rec.1988), if you haven't. A blistering, take-no-prisoners account, which ideally suits this work, IMO. :tiphat:


One of the finest accounts I heard was from the Leeds Piano Competition when a young American, Lydia Artimaw, gave a blustering performance. She should have won on the basis of that but the judges, with usual conservatism, gave it to Michel Dalberto. But the young tigress playing Brahms lives in the memory.


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## Cosmos

I side with Britten. I don't like Brahms; I like this concerto though


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## tempo

moody said:


> The heavy breathing is Szell


How do you know that?


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## Triplets

It is great music. Is it better than the PCs of Schumann, Grieg, Rachmaninov, Bartok, or Prokofiev, or Tchaikovsky? In the wrong hands, Brahms 1 can sound pretty turgid, and the tendency over the past 20 years or so is to slow it down, which I don't like.
The recordings of Leon Fleisher and Rudolf Serkin nailed it, about 50 years ago. Stick with those.


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## Skilmarilion

LancsMan said:


> Just listening to CD review and Brahms 1st Piano Concerto. This is my favourite post Beethoven 19th century piano concerto (Brahms 2nd is too middle aged). I've heard that even Britten (a notorious dis-liker of Brahms) liked it.


Greatest since Beethoven? Impossible to say...

Not sure I follow this 'young man's music' thing. Brahms' 2nd concerto is more refined, with an obviously symphonic structural foundation and is probably more Romantic leaning than classical. That scherzo has a lot of the same 'bite' as there may be found in the first.

It''s like comparing Rachmaninov's third with his second -- both truly great, but the third is more ambitious, more expertly crafted.


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## hreichgott

Triplets said:


> It is great music. Is it better than the PCs of Schumann, Grieg, Rachmaninov, Bartok, or Prokofiev, or Tchaikovsky? In the wrong hands, Brahms 1 can sound pretty turgid, and the tendency over the past 20 years or so is to slow it down, which I don't like.


This is about the 2nd Brahms concerto but somehow I thought people here might be amused








article (with much more funny stuff): Whose Brahms? by Jeremy Denk


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## joen_cph

There´s at least one exception to the slowing down in the 2nd concerto: 
Manz/Mandeal (1996), 43,5 mins, 
less than their (similarly quite fast) recording of the 1st concerto.

EDIT: Well, I almost said that already, earlier in the thread ;-).


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## Brahmsian Colors

Curzon/Szell and Serkin/Szell are both very fine, but there is an unusual sense of life and detail generated by Serkin/Ormandy/Philadelphia Orchestra.


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## hpowders

A monumental performance is Arrau/Giulini. Slow, but magnificent.


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## lluissineu

hpowders said:


> A monumental performance is Arrau/Giulini. Slow, but magnificent.


Absolutely. I agree. I was about to mention this recording but... You did it first. You're quick, good reflexes!


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## hpowders

lluissineu said:


> Absolutely. I agree. I was about to mention this recording but... You did it first. You're quick, good reflexes!


I saw you coming over and went into speed mode! :lol:


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## Animal the Drummer

Haydn67 said:


> Curzon/Szell and Serkin/Szell are both very fine, but there is an unusual sense of life and detail generated by Serkin/Ormandy/Philadelphia Orchestra.


Agree. I have that one and Curzon's other recording conducted by van Beinum, which is very different and very fine too, the rather thin orchestral recording notwithstanding.


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## Pugg

Give me Askenazy/ Haitink and Van Cliburn/ Leinsdorf any day of the week.


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## lluissineu

Pugg said:


> Give me Askenazy/ Haitink and Van Cliburn/ Leinsdorf any day of the week.


Apart from agreeing with recordings (even though I prefer Arrau/Giulini), congratulations for your new avatar. Isn't she beautiful?


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## hpowders

lluissineu said:


> Apart from agreeing with recordings (even though I prefer Arrau/Giulini), congratulations for your new avatar. Isn't she beautiful?


Yes. Arrau/Giulini is the cerebral choice. Really meant for discriminating listeners.

Arrau/Giulini had the courage to present an interpretation far out of the mainstream, knowing it wouldn't be a commercial success and for this they have my deepmost respect.


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## Pugg

lluissineu said:


> Apart from agreeing with recordings (even though I prefer Arrau/Giulini), congratulations for your new avatar. Isn't she beautiful?


Thanks you very much and yes she gorgeous, just like the voice.


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## gprengel

Yes, Brahms 1st piano concerto for me definitely is the greatest post Beethoven 19th cent piano concerto. His 2nd of course is great, too, but I never could get really appreciate it's final movement


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## Larkenfield

I like both of Brahms piano concertos, and the 1st has an enormously grand and impressive beginning. My favorite performance is by Arrau with Haitink.


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## BiscuityBoyle

It has a great monumental first movement, one of the greatest slow movements in all of Brahms and a slightly underwhelming finale. The second concerto is the greater work. 

I love Gilels/Jochum but there are many great performances...


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## premont

BiscuityBoyle said:


> It has a great monumental first movement, one of the greatest slow movements in all of Brahms and a slightly underwhelming finale. The second concerto is the greater work.
> 
> I love Gilels/Jochum but there are many great performances...


I also consider the second concerto the greater of the two, and Gilels - yes, but with Reiner (RCA).


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## BiscuityBoyle

premont said:


> I also consider the second concerto the greater of the two, and Gilels - yes, but with Reiner (RCA).


I was referring to the Gilels/Jochum recording of the 1st concerto. For the second... Dunno, I love both the Reiner and the Jochum performances. There's also a historical recording of Edwin Fischer with Furtwängler which I've always found really exciting.


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## Beet131

These are both incredible piano concertos. I love each equally. Only Rachmaninoff's 2nd and 3rd put me in a higher realm of joy. I am a hopeless Romantic. Brahms' 1st is so powerful and heroic, his 2nd more contemplative. Both the second movement Adagio of PC1 and the third movement Andante of the PC2 are such lyrical gems. The excitement of the third movement Rondo/Allegro Non Troppo of PC1 proves to be a more invigorating finish than the fourth movement Allegro Grazioso of PC2. If I had to choose only one, I would feel dreadfully cheated. They are both towering examples of the piano concerto repertoire. I just can't choose.


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## hpowders

It's a fine, dramatic piano concerto, designed to make a "big splash" by the composer.

My favorite performance is the very measured one by Claudio Arrau with the Philharmonia Orchestra directed by Carlo Maria Giulini.


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## derin684

I'm not sure if this thread is still active but I like the recording with Zimerman, Simon Rattle and Berlin Philarmonic. Gilels' version is also good.


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## Pugg

derin684 said:


> I'm not sure if this thread is still active but I like the recording with Zimerman, Simon Rattle and Berlin Philarmonic. Gilels' version is also good.


Don't worry, you can resurrect threads whenever you want.


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## hansenkd

Old thread, but just wanted to announce that this has been posted if anyone is interested:

http://kellydeanhansen.com/opus15.html


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