# Question about Vivaldi 4 seasons



## Kezza

In the second movement of Spring (Largo), is there a tradition to put your own little bits in there? Or was there something marked to indicate to do so? I haven't actually seen the score. But I just saw the Australian Chamber Orchestra play it with Russian Violinist Alina Ibragimova and it's different to the recording I have and I've seen it on youtube with other people doing different interpretations, one of them Nigel Kennedy.

I just want to know what is going on lol

What should I expect from other people?


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## fox_druid

I don't really get what you meant.

cadenza perhaps??


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## Kezza

Like they add some notes and runs where thy would normally have a rest or play arpeggios instead of long notes and stuff, just changing the notes and rhythm :O


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## purple99

There's a tradition in baroque music of ornamentation. It's a bit like jazz - you're expected to extemporise. So the new notes you heard are put there by the player, not Vivaldi. Kennedy will have done the same. Vivaldi sounds pretty boring if you _don't _ornament.

There was a big debate in the 18th century about how to ornament - what's good taste and what isn't. Bach's eldest son -- CPE Bach -- and others wrote books about it. Telemann composed 'Method Sonatas' with fully written out ornamentation, so pupils could practice the art.



> No one disputes the need for embellishments. This is evident from the great numbers of them everywhere to be found. They are, in fact, indispensable... Without them the best melody is empty and ineffective, the clearest content clouded.
> 
> C. P. E. Bach, Essay on the True Art of Playing Keyboard Instruments, p. 79.


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## Kezza

Thanks for that I understand now


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## periodinstrumentfan

purple99 is absolutely right. Ornamentation is essential. Without it a Baroque piece would sound dry. That's why no two versions of Vivaldi's Four Seasons are alike.

Also, aside from the standard score of the Four Season's there are other manuscript versions of it (written in Vivaldi's own hand). The latest recording of the Four Seasons by Amandine Beyer and the Period-Instrument Ensemble ~ Gli Incogniti uses the Manchester Manuscripts Version & the Turin Manuscripts version which is remarkably different in certain passages. More info on their site http://www.zigzag-territoires.com/article.php3?id_article=1875&lang=en

Manuscript versions of other pieces by other composers are also available on discs where Ensembles consult for "authenticity" purposes.


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## periodinstrumentfan

One of the continuo players of the DVD La Calisto (directed by René Jacobs) was interviewed in the documentary part. He said that they play differently each time depending on how receptive the audience is... he said this because most of the Basso Continuo part are improvised. :->


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## SPR

purple99 said:


> There's a tradition in baroque music of ornamentation. It's a bit like jazz - you're expected to extemporise. So the new notes you heard are put there by the player, not Vivaldi. Kennedy will have done the same. Vivaldi sounds pretty boring if you _don't _ornament.
> 
> There was a big debate in the 18th century about how to ornament - what's good taste and what isn't. Bach's eldest son -- CPE Bach -- and others wrote books about it. Telemann composed 'Method Sonatas' with fully written out ornamentation, so pupils could practice the art.


I did not know this about barouque music. I need to go back and listen to a couple different versions if the seasons as a test... perhaps the players have been taking many more liberties than I was aware of!

Very interesting.


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## Sid James

purple99 said:


> There's a tradition in baroque music of ornamentation. It's a bit like jazz - you're expected to extemporise. So the new notes you heard are put there by the player, not Vivaldi. Kennedy will have done the same. Vivaldi sounds pretty boring if you _don't _ornament.


There are many similarities between baroque music ornamentation and jazz improvisation. Nowhere is this made clearer than in the various jazz versions of Vivaldi's Four Seasons. I have Raymond Fol's 1960s arrangement of the work for jazz band. In it, the saxophone kind of takes the place of the violin. I actually prefer this version to the original. I think Vivaldi would have appreciated it somehow. It's on the Universal label (Gitanes) in the Jazz in Paris series. I don't think many people have heard it.


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## StephenTC

In my Mutter / Karajan 4 seasons on the old EMI DMM label, composing credits were was given as something like "Vivaldi [Kreisler]", and I assumed that meant that Mutter played cadenzas written by Kreisler - I am pretty sure that is correct?


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