# Bach's influence on Beethoven



## Aurelian (Sep 9, 2011)

Beethoven as a child intensively studied the Well-Tempered Clavier. 

For you, what are the best examples of Bach's influence on Beethoven?

And, the worst?


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## 59540 (May 16, 2021)

The question is, how much of Bach's music did Beethoven really know? Beethoven obviously had a deepening interest in counterpoint in his late period, a lot of it obviously Bachian in influence. But I would imagine that Bach is a hard composer to emulate. You can only take cues and make your way from there, which Beethoven did in his last sonatas and quartets.

I don't know of any "bad influence" Bach had on anybody, really.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

The opening of c minor sonata op 13 seems feels like the sinfonia from the c minor keyboard partita BWV 826


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## SONNET CLV (May 31, 2014)

*Bach's influence on Beethoven?*

J.S. Bach was married twice and had almost as many children as the number of Cantatas he wrote in his lifetime. With his wives Maria Barbara (m. 1707-1720) and Anna Magdalena (m. 1721-1750), Bach fathered 20 children, the first was born in 1708 when Bach was 23, with his last coming into the world in 1742, when the composer was 57. Sadly, only ten survived through to adulthood. Fortunately, more than 10 cantatas survived. In fact, quite a few more than 10 times 10 times 2.

Beethoven never married and had no children as far as we know. He did write a couple of cantatas, as a nineteen-year-old: the first was an elegy for Emperor Joseph II; the second for Leopold II, who inherited the throne. Some 25 years or so later he gave it one more shot: "Der glorreiche Augenblick", Op. 136. Would we be much the worse off had none of them survived?

I'm not sure there was much influence there at all, at least not in the areas I list.


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## marlow (11 mo ago)

Bach’s influence was through his counterpoint which Beethoven f course studied. We know he also studied masters like Palestrina while preparing to write the Missa Solemnis. I can’t imagine anyone of competence studying JSB’s music and he’s having a bad effect on him. When Mozart saw it he said, ‘Here’s something we can all learn from!’


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## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

While I think that the importance of the WTC for the wunderkind-age Beethoven might have been exaggerated by the father or others for reasons of advertising, we know fairly well what music Beethoven owned in his later years. There is a (partial?) list in Lockwood's book on Beethoven.
He had most of the keyboard music, certainly WTC, Inventions/Sinfonias, GBV, AoF and also the Partitas or some selection of the suites (I am writing this from memory, not looking it up). I am not sure about the organ trio sonatas but these were also known and studied in the late 18th century. Not sure about the solo violin pieces, I have once seen the idea that the solo beginning of the Kreutzer sonata might have been influenced by them but it seems dubious.

He probably didn't know any of the concerts (they surfaced at some later time, Mendelssohn played Bach's 2 and 3 keyboard concerts).

How much he knew of the choral works is not clear. We know he asked a publisher for the music of the b minor mass but apparently we don't know if and how much of the piece he might have seen (it was not yet published). Most probably he knew at most some copied excerpts from the big choral pieces.


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## premont (May 7, 2015)

Mandryka said:


> The opening of c minor sonata op 13 seems feels like the sinfonia from the c minor keyboard partita BWV 826


Good observation. Even the key is the same.


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## RobertJTh (Sep 19, 2021)

Beethoven valued Handel higher than Bach - not that surprisingly because Handel was by far the more famous composer in Beethoven's day. One of the joys of his last days was receiving the complete printed Handel edition that was gifted to him. In 1824 he called Handel the "greatest composer who ever lived".

So there's a definite Handelian influence in the Missa Solemnis and probably the 9th symphony as well.
Then again, there's Beethoven's famous "Nicht Bach, sondern Meer soll er heissen" quote, which shows his appreciation for Bach - but calling him "Urvater der Harmonie" indicates that he valued Bach more for his harmonic inventiveness than for his mastery in counterpoint.


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## Philidor (11 mo ago)

There is also a set of variations on "See the conquering hero comes" from Händel's Judas Maccabaeus for cello and piano. I am not totallay sure, but I think there is no such direct influence by Bach on Beethoven.

That the late fugues in string quartets and in piano sonatas are possibly inspired by early experiences with fugues from Bach - why not. The "arioso dolente" in op. 110 was also suspected to be Beethoven's adoption of passion-style arias.


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## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

The recitativo and arioso dolente have often been connected with Bach's chromatic fantasy and some piece from the St. John passion; the problem is that I think we lack positive evidence that Beethoven had access to any of the passions (in any case it would only have been some excerpts).
Beethoven had studied counterpoint with Albrechtsberger and wrote many fugati and fugues before his late music (e.g. in the variations op.35 or the C major mass). The main late fugues (opp. 106, 110, 131, 133) all seem more Beethoven than anything else, even the vocal fugues in the 9th and Missa solemnis although these may be a bit more conventional. In addition to the op.110 recitative, I think the clearest Bach hommages are the Diabelli 31 (~Goldberg 25), maybe the Diabelli 24 and the brief quiet (I think D major) section in op.106. And there is the plausible idea that the last movement of op.109 is a "miniature Goldberg-Variations".


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## Philidor (11 mo ago)

> the problem is that I think we lack positive evidence that Beethoven had access to any of the passions


Yes, indeed. As a substitute we can find role models in the E-flat minor prelude and in the G minor prelude of the Well-tempered Clavier I. (And more ... B minor, 3-part-invention F Minor, ...)


> The main late fugues (opp. 106, 110, 131, 133) all seem more Beethoven than anything else


Agreed, this holds in particular for op. 133.

So it is difficult to show any kind of direct influence of Bach, and the indirect one is rather some kind of circumstantial evidence.


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## 59540 (May 16, 2021)

Kreisler jr said:


> The main late fugues (opp. 106, 110, 131, 133) all seem more Beethoven than anything else,


Uhhhhh...I dunno. They're Beethoven for sure, but I think the Bach influence is certainly there (especially in the last movement of Op. 101 and the opening movement of the C# minor quartet).


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## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

I think one would have to be more specific. The mere fact that there is a fugue is not enough for Bach influence (and I don't think I have seen such claims for some early/middle pieces by Beethoven such as op.35 variations or the op.59/3 finale or the fugues in the C major mass). 
There need to be techniques or allusions that can be clearly traced to Bach pieces (mostly WTC), like the obvious similarity in time signature and figuration of the 31st Diabelli with the 25th Goldberg.

E.g. I think the "French ouverture" slow dotting of the beginning of the Pathetique sonata is too generic to have a good reason to connect it with Bach's c minor keyboard partita. I'd want more arguments than such a broad similarity, at least if Beethoven would have had access to that piece already in the late 1790s.

Not sure about op.131, maybe one could make a connections with WTC 1 c# minor. But the op.101 finale always sounded rather "classical" to me in shape, not at all Bachian.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Kreisler jr said:


> E.g. I think the "French ouverture" slow dotting of the beginning of the Pathetique sonata is too generic to have a good reason to connect it with Bach's c minor keyboard partita.


Your ears will tell you. It could be an example of synchronicity of course.


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

I don't think there is any possible way to gauge Bach's influence on Beethoven. What he learned from Bach is likely elemental, or at the molecular level, and deep below the surface. Their styles are too different to expect to hear anything obvious and direct.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Another place where my ears tell me that the similarity is too close to be dismissed with glib generalities is Variation 31 of the Diabelli Variations and Variation 25 of the Goldberg Variations.


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## RICK RIEKERT (Oct 9, 2017)

Beethoven's weaving of elements of the "Goldberg Variations" into his Op. 109 Sonata has often been noted (e.g, by Martin Zenck and Andras Schiff). In fact, the shadow of Bach seems to hover over Op. 109. The broken chord figures in the first movement look to the 'pattern' preludes of the WTC. The second movement is shot through with canons and passages in double counterpoint. And as E. M. Murphy and others have shown in some detail, there are striking parallels between the variation movement and BWV 988: For example, "The finale of Op. 109 itself pays no small tribute to the Goldberg Variations, with the four-square sarabande theme, the fluctuating meters and characters of the variations, and the return of the intact theme. Both variation sets contain pointillistic two-part harmony, canons, and a fughetta […] both alternate strict and free canonic imitation, as well as including copious use of imitative counterpoint."


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## 59540 (May 16, 2021)

Kreisler jr said:


> There need to be techniques or allusions that can be clearly traced to Bach pieces...


I don't think that degree of specificity is required to demonstrate "influence". Otherwise Bach would be as much an uninfluenced singularity as Beethoven.


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## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

It depends how generic and superficial the similarity is. 
One can claim almost anything, as it frequently seen on this and other fora with dozens or hundreds of the most bizarre or random/superficial similarities claimed as "quotes".
Especially in the case here, people tend to confuse ANY fugal or baroque style with Bachian influence, which is wrong because musicians of Beethoven's generation were all trained in counterpoint, often without knowing (much) Bach. Now Beethoven certainly did know more Bach than most others of his time but I still think that to be plausible or interesting a point of influence has to be as specific as possible. 
And this seems to be recognized. E.g. I don't recall that the "counterpoint exercises" of the introduction of the variations op.35 (or the canon or the fugue later in that piece) are usually claimed as Bach influence, but some other things are.


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## 59540 (May 16, 2021)

Kreisler jr said:


> It depends how generic and superficial the similarity is.
> One can claim almost anything, as it frequently seen on this and other fora with dozens or hundreds of the most bizarre or random/superficial similarities claimed as "quotes".
> Especially in the case here, people tend to confuse ANY fugal or baroque style with Bachian influence,


Of course not every fugal instance is "Bachian". "Et vitam venturi" to me sounds more Handel than Bach (while being of course thoroughly Beethoven). The double fugue in the last movement of the ninth though is another matter.


> ...which is wrong because musicians of Beethoven's generation were all trained in counterpoint, often without knowing (much) Bach.


I think maybe they might have known more about "Bachian" techniques than we might imagine sometimes.


> Now Beethoven certainly did know more Bach than most others of his time but I still think that to be plausible or interesting a point of influence has to be as specific as possible.
> And this seems to be recognized. E.g. I don't recall that the "counterpoint exercises" of the introduction of the variations op.35 (or the canon or the fugue later in that piece) are usually claimed as Bach influence, but some other things are.


But the Beethoven of Op. 35 is a little different from the Beethoven of Op. 101.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

Kreisler jr said:


> people tend to confuse ANY fugal or baroque style with Bachian influence





Kreisler jr said:


> Beethoven had studied counterpoint with Albrechtsberger and wrote many fugati and fugues before his late music (e.g. in the variations op.35 or the C major mass).


Good point. Not to discredit any of the composers mentioned in this thread, I'd say it's important to realize there's a lot more to 18th/19th century contrapuntal expressions stylistically than just Bach/Handel influence, and the other composers were actually recognized for this in their time. (eg. Anton Cajetan Adlgasser was referred to as a master of counterpoint by the 20-year Mozart in a letter.)
"Franz Joseph Aumann (1728~1797). Before his voice broke, he sang in the same Viennese choir as Michael Haydn and Johann Georg Albrechtsberger, composers with whom he later in life traded manuscripts. Aumann's music was a large part of the repertoire at St. Florian in the 19th century, and Anton Bruckner availed himself of this resource for his studies of counterpoint. Bruckner focused a lot of his attention on Aumann's Christmas responsories and an Ave Maria in D major. Bruckner, who liked Aumann's coloured harmony, added in 1879 an accompaniment by three trombones to his settings of Ecce quomodo moritur justus and Tenebrae factae sunt."

Compare these (and also Haydn Op.76/6/ii 



 with Beethoven's string quartet writing) -
[ Haydn Missa No.4, crucifixus: 



Beethoven Op.55/ii: 



 ]
[ Haydn Op.20/5/iv: 



Beethoven Op.55/iv: 



 ]

There's also a lot to discuss regarding this, but to cite one element, I would say this sort of expression (where the bass voice abruptly rests, while the upper voices produce various harmonies) isn't really Bach or Handel, but something "Classical" in terms of sense of drama- 



 (Missa st. Hieronymi)




 (Adagio & fugue K.546).


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## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

There is a (possibly spurious) comment by Beethoven that he had written many student fugues but nowadays one needed the "poetic element". Maybe the actual Bach influence was not mainly technique but going beyond mere technique. The next generation (like Schumann) treated some Bach preludes and fugues as "character pieces".

One could also note that several reminiscences mentioned above (and I find those all plausible) have nothing to do with fugue or counterpoint, namely the recitative, arioso dolente in op.110, the siciliano variation #31 in op.120 and maybe the Pathetique intro (although I find the last one not convincing, too different from the Bach suite and too generic, cf. intros like Mozart's "Prague" or Haydn's #85).


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## BoggyB (May 6, 2016)

RobertJTh said:


> Beethoven valued Handel higher than Bach - not that surprisingly because Handel was by far the more famous composer in Beethoven's day. One of the joys of his last days was receiving the complete printed Handel edition that was gifted to him. In 1824 he called Handel the "greatest composer who ever lived".
> 
> So there's a definite Handelian influence in the Missa Solemnis and probably the 9th symphony as well.
> Then again, there's Beethoven's famous "Nicht Bach, sondern Meer soll er heissen" quote, which shows his appreciation for Bach - but calling him "Urvater der Harmonie" indicates that he valued Bach more for his harmonic inventiveness than for his mastery in counterpoint.


And let's not forget the Largo from the 3rd Piano Concerto.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

There is indeed a tendency in today's classical music circles to associate any composer obsessive with counterpoint and fugue after 1750, solely with Bach. I don't mean to discredit Bach's artistry and its importance, but in some cases I find that the tendency is somewhat excessive and lacking awareness of history. It's true Bach had influence on Beethoven, but I feel the way it's described today does disservice to certain other composers. Albrechtsberger (and Pasterwitz, Aumann, and others) wasn't any less obsessive with counterpoint and fugue than Bach and Beethoven; albeit only a small portion of his output, such as Missa Assumptionis BMV, has been recorded today. Again, I have to agree with Kreisler that '"Beethoven's obsession with counterpoint and fugue in his late years is a result of Bach influence" isn't a good argument'. I think it's almost as bad as saying "it's not Bach's influence; it's Pachelbel, Buxtehude, Kuhnau's influence".

Look at this article, for instance, https://bachfestival.org/2018/11/25/the-bach-beethoven-connection/ ["Both men concentrated on the more esoteric aspects of fugal writing and made prominent use of fugues in their most ambitious works. For Beethoven, fugue became almost an obsession [...] Beethoven, fully aware of Bach's precedent, countered with his own Art of Fugue - the GroBe Fuge (Great Fugue), Op. 133. [...] The grandeur of the B-Minor Mass inspired Beethoven's Missa Solemnis, modeled on it in spirit if not in substance. Beethoven's indebtedness to Bach may be heard Friday night in the Ninth Symphony's finale,"]

Also this article on Mozart's final symphony https://listenlearnanddo.wordpress.com/2013/03/18/i-believe-in-mozart-symphony-41-in-c-major/, which says ["...We can thank our good friend Bach for that..."], but of course this is wrong, when we consider things like https://www.talkclassical.com/73833-composers-borrowing-each-other-3.html#post2197779

I think a lot of it has to do with the myth (which is still stubbornly believed many circles) that counterpoint and fugue fell into disfavor after 1750. I had talked about just how wrong it is in another thread. https://www.talkclassical.com/47729-if-mozart-lived-longer-14.html#post2173203 ("there was a divergence of styles leading to a greater variety of stylistic options...").

As I indicated with examples in my previous post, I don't think the traces of Haydn's contrapuntal language in Beethoven's symphonies and string quartets are any less remarkable than those of Bach's.
Also, speaking of non-Bachian influence in 18th century counterpoint, something like this is striking as well (the style of angular figures);












 "Cum sanctis tuis" (Requiem MH155)




 "Laudate pueri" (Vespers K.339)
which gets more pronounced in 



 (Adagio & fugue K.546)


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