# Pentatonic Scales



## sonnenuntergangstunde

I'm looking for some clarification on pentatonic scales. I have done a lot of research online the last couple of days or so; some things are clearer, and some aren't. Here's what I (think) I know so far:

1) There are many varieties of pentatonic scale, some that include semitones (hemitonic), and some that don't (anhemitonic).
2) Two common anhemitonic types are the major pentatonic scale, and its relative minor pentatonic scale that has the same notes but starts a minor 3rd lower.
3) The major pentatonic scale uses the 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 5th and 6th degrees of the diatonic major scale.
4) The minor pentatonic scale uses the 1st, 3rd, 4th, 5th and 7th degrees of the diatonic natural minor scale.

I read in my course materials that in a pentatonic scale the minor 3rd can be placed in between the 3rd and 4th degrees (as in the major pentatonic above), or the 2nd and 3rd degrees (matches neither the major nor the minor pentatonic form).

I've also read elsewhere of different types that have 'world' names, such as Indian pentatonic.

Basically this is all getting very confusing for someone who is only used to the major and minor scales of the common practice period. My questions are:

How many types of anhemitonic pentatonic scales are there? What are they called?

In Western concert music, which types of pentatonic scale are mostly used? I noticed Debussy used a major pentatonic in Syrinx.

Can the minor 3rd be placed elsewhere rather than between the 2nd and 3rd degrees or 3rd and fourth degrees?

Any other light you could shed on this topic would also be helpful! :tiphat:


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## neoshredder

My least favorite scale. Mainly for the lack of tones. Only 5 notes. And it skips some key notes that the Major and Natural Minor Scales use. It is recognizable instantly for me and I prefer the scale to be less obvious when listening to a piece.


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## lupinix

neoshredder said:


> My least favorite scale. Mainly for the lack of tones. Only 5 notes. And it skips some key notes that the Major and Natural Minor Scales use. It is recognizable instantly for me and I prefer the scale to be less obvious when listening to a piece.


To me it's not about the scale you use, but how you use it  I know great music in which pentatonic scales are used



sonnenuntergangstunde said:


> 2) Two common anhemitonic types are the major pentatonic scale, and its relative minor pentatonic scale that has the same notes but starts a minor 3rd lower.
> 3) The major pentatonic scale uses the 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 5th and 6th degrees of the diatonic major scale.
> 4) The minor pentatonic scale uses the 1st, 3rd, 4th, 5th and 7th degrees of the diatonic natural minor scale.
> 
> I read in my course materials that in a pentatonic scale the minor 3rd can be placed in between the 3rd and 4th degrees (as in the major pentatonic above), or the 2nd and 3rd degrees (matches neither the major nor the minor pentatonic form).


I think this has to do with modes, as pentatonic scales have a very modal character. Are you familiar with the medieval modes dorian, phrygian, lydian and mixolydian?

If the minor 3rd is placed between the 2nd and 3rd degrees than it would be mixolydian.



> I've also read elsewhere of different types that have 'world' names, such as Indian pentatonic.
> 
> Basically this is all getting very confusing for someone who is only used to the major and minor scales of the common practice period. My questions are:
> 
> How many types of anhemitonic pentatonic scales are there? What are they called?
> 
> In Western concert music, which types of pentatonic scale are mostly used? I noticed Debussy used a major pentatonic in Syrinx.
> 
> Can the minor 3rd be placed elsewhere rather than between the 2nd and 3rd degrees or 3rd and fourth degrees?
> 
> Any other light you could shed on this topic would also be helpful! :tiphat:


There are a lot of pentatonic scales, especially in eastern music. In gamelan they for instance use a scale called "slendro" among others. The major anhemitonic scale you mentioned above and all its modes (dorian, aeolian/minor, etc.) are mostly used in western music. 
In principle you can put the minor 3rd everywhere you want  you can create your own pentatonic scales or any kind of scales for that matter, just do what you like


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## lupinix

hexatonic scales are also fun  
a few well known examples are: the whole tone scale (or called the first mode of limited transposition by messiaen), used by debussy a lot, the fift mode of limited transposition, the augmented scale and scriabins mystic chord


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## helpmeplslol

Guitarist here (automatic authority on pentatonic scales). Check this out:

Start with a *C*, and go up by a perfect fifth. You get *G*. Now go up a perfect fifth from there, you get *D*. Another fifth, you get *A*. One more fifth up and you finally get *E*.

That's *C G D A E*

Rearrange -> *C D E G A*

That's a major pentatonic scale on C.


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## BurningDesire

helpmeplslol said:


> guitarist here (automatic authority on pentatonic scales). Check this out:
> 
> Start with a *c*, and go up by a perfect fifth. You get *g*. Now go up a perfect fifth from there, you get *d*. Another fifth, you get *a*. One more fifth up and you finally get *e*.
> 
> That's *c g d a e*
> 
> rearrange -> *c d e g a*
> 
> that's a major pentatonic scale on c.


oh snap! .......................................................


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## esharpe

Just an FYI and an idea on how to use pentatonic scales in one’s own compositions. 

Jazz musicians often improvised using pentatonic scales over “regular” chord changes. What I mean by this is that the accompaniment will be using using chords and patterns that make use of all the notes in the octave, but the melody (the improviser) is only using the five notes from the pentatonic scale.


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## esharpe

*string quartet using just pentatonic scales*

I have written a string quartet using just pentatonic scales:

String Quartet #1

http://www.scoreexchange.com/scores/22295.html

This is a short five movement piece for string quartet. Each movement is only about one minute each. And each movement is one line of a tanka that I wrote about Snow (Yuki). I wrote the second movement first and all of the material in the other four movements appears in or is derived from the second movement. Given this, one can think of the first movement as a prelude with the second movement being the main movement. The fifth movement re-states the main motifs of the first four movements, combining them into one large polyphonic mass.

Unable to sleep I listen throughout the night to the silent song of falling snow in my yard. With the soft dawn, satori.

 The first movement is built around the pentatonic scale F# G B C# D. (The Japanese Hirajoshi Scale)
 The second movement is built around the pentatonic scale C# D F# G# A.
 The third movement is built around the pentatonic scale D Eb G A Bb.
 The fourth movement is built around the pentatonic scale C Dd F G Ab, but does not strictly adhere to the scale in places.
 The fifth movement is built around the pentatonic scale C# D F# G# A, but does not strictly adhere to the scale in places


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## JCarmel

"I have written a string quartet using just pentatonic scales"

I'm a bit lost with this....Could you write me one just using bathroom scales?


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## PetrB

esharpe said:


> Just an FYI and an idea on how to use pentatonic scales in one's own compositions.
> 
> Jazz musicians often improvised using pentatonic scales over "regular" chord changes. What I mean by this is that the accompaniment will be using using chords and patterns that make use of all the notes in the octave, but the melody (the improviser) is only using the five notes from the pentatonic scale.


Supplement to E#'s very salient point: With western tunings, fixed on keyboards or a bit more flexible in winds, most flexible in strings, a whole-tone scale of any sort becomes very quickly dulling to the ear even after only a brief duration of time.

You will find in Debussy, that those works which have extensive whole-tone scale play (some of the Piano Preludes, especially) have them working either as alternating with something diatonic, or working either overlapped or fully conjunt with the diatonic. The alterations serves to vary and contrast, and delay to the ear 'what the certainty of key is' as does the more conjunct play of both pentatonic and diatonic working simultaneously.

This is so often Debussy's game plan for what has been called, a perfectly calculated vagueness, the more traditional scales and harmony are made to feel more unstable, kept out of balance by degrees -- this creates both a deliberate and dichotomous ambiguity, i.e. it is 'clearly' and deliberate, pointedly ambiguous while never slipping into an area of perception which sounds like the composer made mere arbitrary choices.

Debussy:
Preludes I; 2 _Voiles (veils)_ -- exactly as above mentioned, pentatonic alternating with diatonic alternating, pentatonic working in conjunction with diatonic.





If not exactly pentatonic, in this we have whole tone and chromatic
preludes I; 6 _Des pas sur la neige_ _(Footsteps in the snow)




_


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## esharpe

JCarmel said:


> "I have written a string quartet using just pentatonic scales"


"I'm a bit lost with this....Could you write me one just using bathroom scales?"

What ever.


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## JCarmel

Please forgive my remark, esharpe...it's just plain ignorance on my part & a silly sense of humour.


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## PetrB

esharpe said:


> I have written a string quartet using just pentatonic scales:





esharpe said:


> "I'm a bit lost with this....Could you write me one just using bathroom scales?"
> 
> What ever.


But what musical persons cannot resist an invitation for a pun when the door is soooo wide open?


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## esharpe

JCarmel said:


> "I have written a string quartet using just pentatonic scales"
> 
> I'm a bit lost with this....Could you write me one just using bathroom scales?


I might have to channel John Cage to do this.


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## esharpe

JCarmel said:


> Please forgive my remark, esharpe...it's just plain ignorance on my part & a silly sense of humour.


You did nothing that needs forgiveness.


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## Piwikiwi

esharpe said:


> Just an FYI and an idea on how to use pentatonic scales in one's own compositions.
> 
> Jazz musicians often improvised using pentatonic scales over "regular" chord changes. What I mean by this is that the accompaniment will be using using chords and patterns that make use of all the notes in the octave, but the melody (the improviser) is only using the five notes from the pentatonic scale.


This is not completely true, Jazz musicians often look down on improvising using only pentatonic scales, it is seen as something beginners do.


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## helpmeplslol

Thing is they may use pentatonic scales other than that of the key centre, which is less of a beginner-move.


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