# Too worthy to watch...



## Ingélou (Feb 10, 2013)

The dvd of *Vittorio de Sica*'s _'Ladri di Biciclette' ('Bicycle Thieves')_ has been sitting on our shelf for two years now, since our local newspaper offered its readers copies at a discount. According to the cover, it is 'One of the greatest cinematic experiences ever' and 'The definition of Italian Neo-Realism'. We know of the plot - that it is poignant when a young man and his son have the chance of a job and a life taken away from them and search through the city for the stolen bike. But somehow, we never feel in the mood for something so noble...

Do you have books, films or music recommended highly - by friends, by a critic, by the media - that you've never felt inclined to watch, read or listen to, fearing that it might turn out to be a drag?

Or maybe you simply don't have time, but when you do, you're up for it?

It would be interesting to see how unusual we are - but also to hear *details* of which work of art was too worthy for you to watch/read/listen to. Wasn't it George III who called Shakespeare's plays '*such stuff - only one mustn't say so*.' Well, you can say so here, if your post is witty & pretty. Every thread here is 'just an opinion', remember. 

And if anyone has seen 'Bicycle Thieves', what did you think? Should we just get on with it?

Thanks in advance for any replies.


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## deggial (Jan 20, 2013)

Ingenue said:


> The dvd of *Vittorio de Sica*'s _'Ladri di Biciclette' ('Bicycle Thieves')_ has been sitting on our shelf for two years now


funnily enough, it's been in my files for a while as well. Not 2 years, but my art teacher told me I should watch it about 20 years ago  one of these days... :lol:


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## Blancrocher (Jul 6, 2013)

haha--good thread! I've seen Bicycle Thieves and didn't like it all that much--it's a little too filled with misery over economic conditions for my taste, but some scenes in it have stuck with me I'll admit. 

I've been meaning to watch Fassbinder's Berlin Alexanderplatz for around 10 years or so, which isn't much longer than the actual running time I'm afraid! It's just about the last Fassbinder movie I've yet to watch--and it may never happen! But you never know!

p.s. A recommendation to sci fi buffs: his seldom-seen World on a Wire is a gem.


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## Ingélou (Feb 10, 2013)

I remember a poll conducted some years ago which placed James Joyce's *Ulysses* as number one in the table of modern novels, but barely half the respondents had read it. I have to confess that apart from some choice extracts we studied in class, I've never even felt tempted to open it, though I love *The Dubliners*.

Similarly, I'm quite a George Eliot fan, enjoying *Silas Marner, Middlemarch, Felix Holt, Adam Bede, Scenes of Clerical Life* and so on. But *Daniel Deronda* - I started it several times and never got beyond page 45; *Romola* I never even tackled. 

And Tolstoy - I love '*War & Peace*', and I've read it three times. But a school library copy of *Anna Karenina* stagnated on my bedroom shelf for nearly a year. I did try it several times, but I just feel that Levin must be the most boring character any novelist ever invented! :devil:

Life is too short.....


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## mstar (Aug 14, 2013)

I not only have works I do not have time for, but books as well....  

I just need two weeks to read and listen to EVERYTHING that I want to!!! :lol: 

Winter break??


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

It's a wonderful film and I'm no movie snob, Bruce Willis is my choice 65 % of the time.
This is the way things were in Italy just after WW 2, pretty dire and a bicycle was of immense value.
Ingenue,watch it and tell us of your reaction do !


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## JCarmel (Feb 3, 2013)

Great film....get watching, Ingenue!


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## Blancrocher (Jul 6, 2013)

Alright, agreed with moody and JCarmel--but you may want Marriage Italian Style on hand for later! Bicycle Thieves is like a knife to the heart!


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## Vesteralen (Jul 14, 2011)

I think I fast forwarded through it once.............


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## Blancrocher (Jul 6, 2013)

Vesteralen said:


> I think I fast forwarded through it once.............


Are you sure you're not mistaking it for Breaking Away?

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0078902/


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## Nereffid (Feb 6, 2013)

It was such a relief to me many years ago when I finally admitted to myself that by and large I don't like many of those films and books we consider intellectually and morally profound, and now I could get on with my life without having to feel guilty for being bored by the miserable lives of fictional people.
Actually it was something I cottoned to in school when we studied Hardy's "The Mayor Casterbridge". It struck me _during the final exam as I was about to write an essay_ that the only reason Hardy's characters had such crap lives was because Hardy chose such lives for them. God, I had fun writing that essay. (Got an A, too!)
So as far as I'm concerned, all purveyors of fiction are, by definition and necessity, manipulative liars. Being a manipulative liar in the name of some noble truth just makes it worse. I mean, I don't mind being manipulated, in fact I enjoy it _in the name of entertainment_.
The final nail in the coffin for "worthy" art came recently when I watched Carl Dreyer's "Ordet" and realised that ultimately it was making the same philosophical point as "The Santa Clause".


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## Guest (Sep 26, 2013)

Ingenue said:


> Do you have books, films or music recommended highly - by friend, by a critic, by the media - that you've never felt inclined to watch, read or listen to, fearing that it might turn out to be a drag?
> 
> Or maybe you simply don't have time, but when you do, you're up for it?


Absolutely! Haven't seen _Bicycle Thieves_, nor _Regle du Jeu_, but I have seen some of the other arty stuff that one must (_La Grande Illusion, The Conformist_ etc). I have plenty of books on my shelf that I think I will get round to starting (_Middlemarch_, perhaps), as well as some left overs from my degree that I daresay I might finish...er..._Middlemarch_, for example.



Ingenue said:


> I remember a poll conducted some years ago which placed James Joyce's *Ulysses* as number one in the table of modern novels, but barely half the respondents had read it. I have to confess that apart from some choice extracts we studied in class, I've never even felt tempted to open it, though I love *The Dubliners*.
> 
> Similarly, I'm quite a George Eliot fan, enjoying *Silas Marner, Middlemarch, Felix Holt, Adam Bede, Scenes of Clerical Life* and so on. But *Daniel Deronda* - I started it several times and never got beyond page 45; *Romola* I never even tackled.
> 
> And Tolstoy - I love '*War & Peace*', and I've read it three times. But a school library copy of *Anna Karenina* stagnated on my bedroom shelf for nearly a year. I did try it several times, but I just feel that Levin must be the most boring character any novelist ever invented! :devil:


Tch tch! Now you're also inviting me to show off. I have read both _Dubliners _and _Ulysses _ though I can't remember much about either, but I doubt I'll try _Finnegan's Wake._ I've read nothing Russian...(scouring mind to double check) which reminds me I've read Chekov - _Three Sisters_ (?) and I've seen a production of the _Cherry Orchard_ and heard the name of Raskolnikov in a song by Magazine...you sometimes gotta get your culture in where you can!


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## Celloman (Sep 30, 2006)

_Bicycle Thieves_ happens to be my favorite foreign-language film (I'm American). The expression on the boy's face at the end of the film is worth the price of admission alone...everybody should watch this film at some point of their lives. You have the feeling that the actors are not only _acting out_ their characters, but they _are_ their characters. An amazing film.


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## Ingélou (Feb 10, 2013)

We must watch *Bicycle Thieves*, then.... (sigh  )

It seems to be pot luck with us, whether we like things that have had a fuss made about them.

We gave up on *The Piano* half way through. I just couldn't identify with the mute woman, so all that happened seemed arbitrary.

Then I read about *Notes on a Scandal*, starring Judi Dench and Cate Blanchett, and thought it sounded really interesting, so we recorded it on the hard drive of our TV. It stayed there for months - we couldn't face the poisonous unpleasantness of the Dench character, as described in the review; then the TV broke down & the repairman could only put it right by wiping its memory.
Relief! :lol:

On the other hand, *The King's Speech* and *Seabiscuit* both lived up to the hype - for us.


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## Vesteralen (Jul 14, 2011)

Loved *Seabiscuit*........but, I'm a sucker for movies about animals. Want to see a grown man cry?


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## mstar (Aug 14, 2013)

Vesteralen said:


> Loved *Seabiscuit*........but, I'm a sucker for movies about animals. Want to see a grown man cry?


Poor Vesteralen.... Thanks, but no, I will make sure never to mention animal movies then. 

By the way, I once watched a nature show on a lioness who was chased out by a dominating lion after he trued to kill her three cubs. By the end of the movie, one's two hind legs were broken, one was eaten by an alligator, but the last one survived.

Don't watch that movie. :lol:


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## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

Ingenue said:


> I remember a poll conducted some years ago which placed James Joyce's *Ulysses* as number one in the table of modern novels, but barely half the respondents had read it . . .
> . . . a school library copy of *Anna Karenina* stagnated on my bedroom shelf for nearly a year.


My main goal when I was 18 was to understand all the references in Ulysses. However, once I started to read it, the book itself wasn't doing much for me, so I quit after chapter 3. And Anna Karenina, I endured that one. Personally, I'd recommend someone start at the chapter where Anna is driving to the train station to kill herself - great pre-Joycian stream-of-consciousness - and end after that.


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## Vesteralen (Jul 14, 2011)

For a while, I was ordering at least one DVD a week from my library from the Criterion Collection. But, I was finding that I either never got to them before it was time to turn them in, or I only had time to fast forward to see if I might like to get them out again. I did watch a few early Bergman films, though, mainly because I *love* the cinematography. For me, nothing beats a really richly filmed black and white film. (Speaking of which, has anyone ever seen Harold Lloyd's "The Kid Brother"? Gorgeous!)


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## Cheyenne (Aug 6, 2012)

I've read _Ulysses_ - gone through the entire thing by reading it aloud. Can't say my comprehension level was very high though :lol: Reading aloud does help, and I find it is generally so with stream-of-consciousness: I did the same with _A Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man_ and also with the works of Woolf and it did wonders. I _always_ read plays aloud, incidentally. It was some experience going through the famous speech of _Waiting for Godot_, I'll tell you that much. Try it sometime if you can't get through something, it may help. JL Borges was right: slow is good.

I haven't seen _Bycicle Thieves_ but my film tastes are wide enough to include 'intellectual cinema' or cinema for 'cinephiles' or 'auteurist cinema' (and I really despise that last term). I can't stand pretentiousness for the sake of it though. _My Dinner with André_ is fine, but _Waking Life_ really isn't. Or the sort of tiresome, invariably independently made film that is nothing but a collection of scenes featuring excessive suffering and drama with little point to it - _that_ sort of movie I avoid too. Luckily, I can't say Ozu or Fellini or Lang or Renoir or any other truly skilled director ever indulges into that sort of thing.

At the same time, I play video games, which have never produced a single product even worth measuring against any of the earlier mentioned directors as far as artistic value goes. I must admit my interest is more esoteric, given I probably spent more time reading about them and 'studying' them than actually playing them, but occasionally I play through some as well: and anybody over 50 is basically looking down on me for it.

Don't tire yourself by listening or reading or watching to things others tell you is good, but be aware it is out there, and regularly try out different things. There's more than enough for a lifetime, you'll have to choose anyhow.

To answer the first question: I have a huge backlog of works (reading especially), but I don't really avoid things because of the overt praise they've received.


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## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

Cheyenne said:


> My film tastes are wide enough to include 'intellectual cinema' or cinema for 'cinephiles' or 'auteurist cinema' (and I really despise that last term).


I'm a sucker for a good "intellectual cinema" film. I remember seeing Bergman's Wild Strawberries for the first time, and there was a scene which revealed something about me - I don't remember what it was - but I found myself screaming at my TV. I love it when art produces self-revelation (well, maybe not at the time, but I do later).


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## deggial (Jan 20, 2013)

Ingenue said:


> Levin must be the most boring character any novelist ever invented! :devil:


cheers, I rolled my eyes through the chapters concerning him... Tolstoy is great at emotional insight but some of what he reveals about human nature is either dullness or sheer stupidity, both of which are true to life but hardly great drama. Clogs the book (like the chapters concerning young Rostov in War and Peace = what a kind moron!).


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## deggial (Jan 20, 2013)

Ingenue said:


> Then I read about *Notes on a Scandal*, starring Judi Dench and Cate Blanchett, and thought it sounded really interesting, so we recorded it on the hard drive of our TV. It stayed there for months - we couldn't face the poisonous unpleasantness of the Dench character, as described in the review; then the TV broke down & the repairman could only put it right by wiping its memory.
> Relief! :lol:


I can only wish that film was wiped from my memory! my ex wanted to see it during our early days and I obliged. Dear god, midway I was already so irritated with Judi Dench, her character and the film's pedantic manner - I wanted to leave. I've never walked out of a cinema before (usually I sleep through it if I can't be ***** with it or soldier through focusing on the less intellectual... assets ) but this was something else. Had I not been looking for a shag later that night... so I squirmed my way through 2 excruciating hours. Thank goodness she didn't drag me to The Hours, another abomination as far as I'm concerned.


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## Celloman (Sep 30, 2006)

Taggart and Ingenue, have you seen Powell and Pressburger's _The Red Shoes_? That film happens to be my favorite one, *period.* Actually, I like all of those films from P & P. _Black Narcissus_, _Colonel Blimp_, _A Matter of Life and Death_...doesn't get much better than that.


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## Ingélou (Feb 10, 2013)

Celloman said:


> Taggart and Ingenue, have you seen Powell and Pressburger's _The Red Shoes_? That film happens to be my favorite one, *period.* Actually, I like all of those films from P & P. _Black Narcissus_, _Colonel Blimp_, _A Matter of Life and Death_...doesn't get much better than that.


We've seen *The Red Shoes* & it's fabulous, you're right; *Black Narcissus* is also very good, and I've read the book too. I haven't seen the others, but I must...

Thanks for reminding me of these excellent films, Celloman. :cheers:


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## Vesteralen (Jul 14, 2011)

Ingenue said:


> We've seen *The Red Shoes* & it's fabulous, you're right; *Black Narcissus* is also very good, and I've read the book too. I haven't seen the others, but I must...
> 
> Thanks for reminding me of these excellent films, Celloman. :cheers:


We watched *A Canterbury Tale *recently, with the bonus disc. Now, that was a strange one.


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## Celloman (Sep 30, 2006)

Vesteralen said:


> We watched *A Canterbury Tale *recently, with the bonus disc. Now, that was a strange one.


Interesting side note about that one. They actually have annual trips through Canterbury, visiting the sites where the film was shot. Those are some seriously devoted fans!


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## mstar (Aug 14, 2013)

deggial said:


> cheers, I rolled my eyes through the chapters concerning him... Tolstoy is great at emotional insight but some of what he reveals about human nature is either dullness or sheer stupidity, both of which are true to life but hardly great drama. Clogs the book (like the chapters concerning young Rostov in War and Peace = what a kind moron!).


He did that on purpose.... That's what authors do.  (Sneaky, sneaky)

Or he really was just being a moron. :lol:


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## Guest (Sep 28, 2013)

Vesteralen said:


> We watched *A Canterbury Tale *recently, with the bonus disc. Now, that was a strange one.


As a former resident of Canterbury, I have a particular affection for this film...but I've only a single-disc - what's on the bonus?


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## Ingélou (Feb 10, 2013)

deggial said:


> cheers, I rolled my eyes through the chapters concerning him... Tolstoy is great at emotional insight but some of what he reveals about human nature is either dullness or sheer stupidity, both of which are true to life but hardly great drama. Clogs the book (like the chapters concerning young Rostov in War and Peace = what a kind moron!).





mstar said:


> He did that on purpose.... That's what authors do.  (Sneaky, sneaky)
> 
> Or he really was just being a moron. :lol:


As I say, I never managed to get on with *Anna Karenina*. But from my knowledge of *War & Peace*, and Tolstoy's life, I don't think he was doing a witty post-modern irony job on Levin.  _Levin_ has a controlled meditative idealism about him, wanting to sympathise with peasant life and trying out working in the harvest fields - in other words, he was what Tolstoy *admired* & tried all his life to be but was *not*! The character of Pierre in *War & Peace*, with his superstitions and vacillations, has many of Tolstoy's own *actual* traits, and as a result is (imo) much more realistic & likeable.

Woe betide artists and writers (again, imo) when they let didactic or doctrinaire concerns shape their works.


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## Blancrocher (Jul 6, 2013)

This thread--especially now that literature is taking over--reminds me of some hilarious scenes in a novel by David Lodge, where a bunch of English professors get drunk one night and confess to the books they hadn't read:



> Lodge invented a literary parlour game called 'Humiliation' in Changing Places, which remains popular at dinner parties. Players name classics of literature that they have not read, the winner being the one who exhibits the most woeful literary lacuna. In Changing Places, Lodge's obnoxious American academic, Howard Ringbaum, admits that he has never read Hamlet - and thus wins the game (but loses his job). Lodge himself owns up to War and Peace.


http://www.theguardian.com/books/2008/jun/13/david.lodge

Funny that Lodge hadn't read Tolstoy! I hadn't known that!

I watched a "too worthy to watch" film last night, by the way--Luis Bunuel's "Tristana." I've always loved Bunuel, though now that I'm getting into the farish reaches of his filmography I never expect a masterpiece even though I hope for it. Anyways, it was pretty good!


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## regressivetransphobe (May 16, 2011)

I don't have time for "art" anymore. Real genius is in pulp/trash anyway.


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## Ingélou (Feb 10, 2013)

Blancrocher said:


> This thread--especially now that literature is taking over--reminds me of some hilarious scenes in a novel by David Lodge, where a bunch of English professors get drunk one night and confess to the books they hadn't read:
> 
> Funny that Lodge hadn't read Tolstoy! I hadn't known that!


I enjoy David Lodge's novels & have used them in the classroom. The scene in *Changing Places *is based on reality, & reminds me of another similar real life incident as recounted in Kingsley Amis's autobiography. He was playing a literary game where you set titles or quotations for others to act out in mime, and he set Arnold Wesker the opening line to a Hamlet soliloquy, 'Oh what a rogue & peasant slave am I', purely for the pleasure of seeing Wesker, whom he disliked, having to act like a peasant slave. But it soon became clear that Wesker didn't recognise the quotation...


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