# New to Me Traviata



## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

Well, for those of you who are Traviata fans, I just want to recommend one you may not have tried: Pilar Lorengar, with Dietrich Fischer-Dieskau and Giacomo Aragall, and Lorin Maazel conducting the Deutsche Oper Berlin. Lorengar has a sweet voice, and does a creditable job, but that's not the reason. The reason is, first, Fischer-Dieskau is a very good Giorgio, I'd say in the same class as Thomas Hampson if not quite as masterful or assured (Hampson on the Renee Fleming DVD with Joseph Calleja, I mean) and, second, Aragall really owns the part. He's a very very good Alfredo. And this recording does something I'd never heard before: in the Matador song, it's not a choir that sings it, it's a solo (probably Aragall, but I don't know). It really works well. I picked it up on a whim in the second-hand CD store and listened to it about six times last night lol.

"Operas are unique individuals, representatives of an ancient civilization, from a distant galaxy, on a different metaphysical plane. Their spaceship broke, and they're here waiting for a part, but while they're here, they can see that we're troubled, and they want to help. All they can see is our hearts, and so access is as difficult for them as it is for us, but give them a chance."


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## powerbooks (Jun 30, 2012)

If memory served me, this version has some cuts in Act 2 and 3. Can you confirm?


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## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

I think the aria where Alfredo expresses his remorse for having let Violetta pay for everything (right after Annina tells him how much she needs) may have been cut, but I'm not certain. It's not an aria I would miss much if it were cut, so ... not something I'd notice too terribly badly.


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## myaskovsky2002 (Oct 3, 2010)

I hate Traviata. I have even opened a thread about that. It is so cheesy, so corny, so vulgar. De mauvais goût.

Martin


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## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

myaskovsky2002 said:


> I hate Traviata. I have even opened a thread about that. It is so cheesy, so corny, so vulgar. De mauvais goût.
> 
> Martin


Hey, Martin! So what's your current opera obsession, if not Traviata?


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## myaskovsky2002 (Oct 3, 2010)

guythegreg said:


> Hey, Martin! So what's your current opera obsession, if not Traviata?


I have many, thank you for asking.

Alben Berg : Lulu and Wozzeck
Richard the Wagnerian: Tristan and Isolde, Lohengrin, the huge Ring
Schreker: die Gezeichneten
Puccini: la rondine, Turandot 
Tchaikovsky: Eugene Oneguin, Pikovaya dama, Tcherevichky
Rimsky-Korsakov: Tsar's bride, Christmas eve, Tsar Saltan
Anton Rubinstein : the demon

And many others...

Just try this...






I like deep music.

In order to see all my operas go to www3.bell.net/svp1 and type operas...

Best regards

Martin


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## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

wow ... I've been listening to practically nothing but Traviata since April, but that's just how my obsession runs.

I had a ticket to Lulu at the Met, but I couldn't stand it ... just wasn't doing anything for me. Left at the interval.

La Rondine they're doing this coming season, I'll certainly see it then.

So many people love Tristan und Isolde, I'm hoping to love it sometime soon! I'm working on Wagner, but not very energetically lol ... I think Parsifal will be my next stab at it

Pique Dame, I had four tickets to see Karita Mattila doing it at the Met and only used one ... sad, huh? The music just wasn't good enough. And the plot! Maybe it was the production, but it just seemed so arbitrary to me, that Herman started out madly in love and then, without any segue or explanation of how it happened, suddenly he's madly in love with money ... huh? What was that about? Maybe I should read the original Pushkin, that would explain it eh?

But let me just ask, if I could ... your avatar, who is it a picture of?


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## myaskovsky2002 (Oct 3, 2010)

guythegreg said:


> wow ... I've been listening to practically nothing but Traviata since April, but that's just how my obsession runs.
> 
> I had a ticket to Lulu at the Met, but I couldn't stand it ... just wasn't doing anything for me. Left at the interval.
> 
> ...


How old are you? If you are 15, bravo! You are just starting. Your taste is evolving, if you are older...

Martin


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## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

OMG what a putdown. I would never do that to you!


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## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

I have the better of you anyway, for with my openness and willingness to work at it I will eventually enjoy MANY MORE operas than you!! So there!


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## myaskovsky2002 (Oct 3, 2010)

guythegreg said:


> I have the better of you anyway, for with my openness and willingness to work at it I will eventually enjoy MANY MORE operas than you!! So there!


Frankly... LOL

Martin

I bet you will! Then Traviata will be forgotten. Alleluya!


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## myaskovsky2002 (Oct 3, 2010)

guythegreg said:


> OMG what a putdown. I would never do that to you!


I am very sorry, i wasn't very polite, but you asked me for something! Remeber?, Then, I posted the prelude of an opera I love and you made no comments, ignoring me. I found this kind of rude. You can be impolite with words or without them. I told everybody why I started hating Traviata, I even created a thread about that. It was funny. All Traviata lovers were furious. I was rubbing my hands. Some people think I am dumb, I think they are right. I am not mean, just stupid.

Martin


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## powerbooks (Jun 30, 2012)

Hi guythegreg:

I am also kind of puzzled by your fever to La Traviata. It is a very good opera for sure, but certainly not even the best of Verdi IMHO.

Can you imagine to grow up with no opera at all, and then was fed with only one opera: La Traviata for almost a decade? And it was used to symbolize the darkness of capitalism? 

That's right. That was in China, between 1970 to 1980s... until I heard La Boheme live for the fist time in 1983!


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## sospiro (Apr 3, 2010)

myaskovsky2002 said:


> I told everybody why I started hating Traviata, I even created a thread about that. It was funny. All Traviata lovers were furious. I was rubbing my hands. Some people think I am dumb, I think they are right. I am not mean, just stupid.
> 
> Martin


So you created a thread about your hate for an opera just to annoy people? To enjoy their reaction?

Why?


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## myaskovsky2002 (Oct 3, 2010)

sospiro said:


> So you created a thread about your hate for an opera just to annoy people? To enjoy their reaction?
> 
> Why?


Two possible answers:

To create a reaction
To say what I think
... Alternative answer, it *depends*

Martin


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## myaskovsky2002 (Oct 3, 2010)

My sad story about Traviata. maybe you will understand after this...

Look... I think La Traviata (a cookie has this name in Argentina, and I've never liked that cookie) is a first step for opera lovers. It has so much music that gets you dizzy. But I Brindisi and La donna è putina...LOL. Mobile have the same catchy, unbearable beat.
It is so popular... In French we say: musique pour la populace, music for the rabble.

When I came to Canada in 1983, I brought plenty of cassettes and I also bought a VHS. I had the bad idea to buy.... La Traviata (Domingo, Stratas). My 1 year old son loved Traviata. At least two times a day he heard....TRAVIATA! But when he saw the VHS the situation went worse, he cried every single time he saw the girl dying. This lasted for about two more years.

Dad was *Traviataded*... Near to death, I promiss myself, like the RAVEN for my friend Edgar Allan Poe, never more! Now you have the whole and comprehensible story of my feelings about this opera.

Thank you for your understanding

I also hate I Pagliacci (la comedia è finita!)... Too melodramatic

Curtain

Martin


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

I honestly don't see the point of creating a thread to say you hate an opera, although there are some that I am less likely to hear or watch due to overexposure too.

I hate anything that will attack other people's pleasure in a wonderful art form.


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## myaskovsky2002 (Oct 3, 2010)

mamascarlatti said:


> I honestly don't see the point of creating a thread to say you hate an opera, although there are some that I am less likely to hear or watch due to overexposure too.
> 
> I hate anything that will attack other people's pleasure in a wonderful art form.


Well, Human beens are not supposed to think the same way, you maybe should respect my point of vue as I respect yours. You see an attack where was no attack in any way. People don't give a fig about my opinion except those who share my opinion.
Actually, there is a thread saying bad things about many composers, at the beginning I was shocked, but a smart lady explained that these were just jokes, I calmed down. It is OK. Click below.

http://www.talkclassical.com/20051-match-bad-attribute-composer.html

I think sense of humour is a nice quality to have, just my opinion...of course

Respectful,

Martin


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## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

myaskovsky2002 said:


> I am very sorry, i wasn't very polite, but you asked me for something! Remeber?, Then, I posted the prelude of an opera I love and you made no comments, ignoring me. I found this kind of rude. You can be impolite with words or without them.


Oh, I see. I get busy sometimes - all my posts are at work - and sometimes I don't take the time I should to think up something to say. Sorry. I do generally enjoy your posts, and I did go back and look at your thread on why you hate Traviata, and I thought it was very heartwarming and wonderful. I envy you your kids!

I don't love Traviata because it's wonderful, but because I have no choice. I'm addicted.


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## myaskovsky2002 (Oct 3, 2010)

guythegreg said:


> Oh, I see. I get busy sometimes - all my posts are at work - and sometimes I don't take the time I should to think up something to say. Sorry. I do generally enjoy your posts, and I did go back and look at your thread on why you hate Traviata, and I thought it was very heartwarming and wonderful. I envy you your kids!
> 
> I don't love Traviata because it's wonderful, but because I have no choice. I'm addicted.


I have just loved your post! You are a very pleasant person, I guess better than me. Sorry again, I wasn't in a good day. Go to Do you write well to learn some stuff, not just from me.

Martin


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## myaskovsky2002 (Oct 3, 2010)

http://www.talkclassical.com/20106-do-you-write-well-2.html#post322563

Do you write well?


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## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

I don't know, that would be up to the readers I guess! Why?


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## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

powerbooks said:


> Hi guythegreg:
> 
> I am also kind of puzzled by your fever to La Traviata. It is a very good opera for sure, but certainly not even the best of Verdi IMHO.
> 
> ...


Wow, what a story! only Traviata for 10 years ... sounds a bit much, actually. No, I don't love Traviata because it's wonderful but because it's an addiction. I'm sure eventually I will move on to other things.

So after hearing La Boheme, now what's your favorite opera?


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## powerbooks (Jun 30, 2012)

I was shocked by La Boheme (and admit still have teary eyes whenever attending a live performance of it), so take it for a grain of salt:

La Boheme, Figaro, Aida, Meistersinger, Norma, Rosenkavalier, and if continues (besides the alteration of sad and happy), you will see my bias toward Wagner .....


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## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

I'm always amazed by the incredible range of different operas most opera fans love. Each of us is quite unique! Finding two people with exactly the same list of favorites is probably impossible.


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## myaskovsky2002 (Oct 3, 2010)

guythegreg said:


> I'm always amazed by the incredible range of different operas most opera fans love. Each of us is quite unique! Finding two people with exactly the same list of favorites is probably impossible.


Of course, I agree. I am a Russian opera lover, but I also love Wagner, Schreker, Zemlinsky, Schönberg, Berg, Krenek very deeply... I discovered Krenek last year, yes, he is quite weird... But he has GOOD MOMENTS.






Martin


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## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

yeah, unfortunately, I have no headphones at work! Plan to get headphones maybe tomorrow ... we'll see. I'll give it a listen then and let you know what I think. If I get them. Kind of embarrassing ... a lot of people have posted things for me to listen to and I haven't been able to listen to any of them. So I have to get headphones.


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## myaskovsky2002 (Oct 3, 2010)

guythegreg said:


> yeah, unfortunately, I have no headphones at work! Plan to get headphones maybe tomorrow ... we'll see. I'll give it a listen then and let you know what I think. If I get them. Kind of embarrassing ... a lot of people have posted things for me to listen to and I haven't been able to listen to any of them. So I have to get headphones.


I guess this is kind of difficult music, very contemporary... I won't be offensed if you don't like it. What kind of job do you have that you are able to listen to music and post stuff. I wish I could get a job like that! Your tomatoes look great! 
I went to NYC three weeks ago.... It was my 4th time, I loved it! You have a wonderful, wonderful city. For how long have you been listening to operas? Are you kind of new? Are you a male or a female, how old are you?

Martin, curious , never has gone beyond the age of "asking questions". LOL


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## sospiro (Apr 3, 2010)

guythegreg said:


> I'm always amazed by the incredible range of different operas most opera fans love. Each of us is quite unique! Finding two people with exactly the same list of favorites is probably impossible.


I agree & that's what makes this forum so exciting. Lots of times people have spoken about an opera they love (which I don't know) & I have been curious & bought it & *loved* it!

I have to say though that if someone says they hate a particular opera which I love, it doesn't make me hate it!


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## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

Well, I'm 53, bald, a guy ... Greg is my name so it's part of my Handel ... only been an opera fan for about 4 years. Became an opera fan in spokane, in early 2008, by checking out Norma at the library, and then moved to NYC in the summer of 2009 once I realized what was available here at the Met.

Actually it was Madama Butterfly, on the Live in HD shows, that really convinced me to come here. I hate the opera. The music is completely forgettable, the characters are not people you'd want to know, and the plot is kind of disgusting ... but when I went to the movie theater in Spokane and saw what the Met did with it, it was just incredible. And in the opera house it's even better. I mean, MUCH MUCH better.

I just got a customer service job here in NYC, I answer phones for a website, there's a fair amount of downtime so I can spend time here. It'd be nice to have a more prestigious position but I think the time for that is over, in my life. Eh, I feel OK. My life seems to work. There's good reasons I'm not making tons of money and having an apartment overlooking central park! And I get to indulge my love of musical theater - opera and ballet - so I can't really complain too much.


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## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

sospiro said:


> I agree & that's what makes this forum so exciting. Lots of times people have spoken about an opera they love (which I don't know) & I have been curious & bought it & *loved* it!
> 
> I have to say though that if someone says they hate a particular opera which I love, it doesn't make me hate it!


Hey, Annie! yeh it is funny about how people can get you to love one but they can't get you to hate one. One of the rare conundrums that works out positive!


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## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

powerbooks said:


> I was shocked by La Boheme (and admit still have teary eyes whenever attending a live performance of it), so take it for a grain of salt:
> 
> La Boheme, Figaro, Aida, Meistersinger, Norma, Rosenkavalier, and if continues (besides the alteration of sad and happy), you will see my bias toward Wagner .....


I love it! But why were you shocked by La Boheme? Or do you mean it just got to you really hard?


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## sospiro (Apr 3, 2010)

guythegreg said:


> Hey, Annie! yeh it is funny about how people can get you to love one but they can't get you to hate one. One of the rare conundrums that works out positive!


I have tempered my posts though. When I first joined I used to go on about _Simon Boccanegra_ so much I'm sure it put people off!

But when I read about someone else's obsession with a particular opera I just nod & think "Yep I know that feeling well!"


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## myaskovsky2002 (Oct 3, 2010)

guythegreg said:


> Well, I'm 53, bald, a guy ... Greg is my name so it's part of my Handel ... only been an opera fan for about 4 years. Became an opera fan in spokane, in early 2008, by checking out Norma at the library, and then moved to NYC in the summer of 2009 once I realized what was available here at the Met.
> 
> Actually it was Madama Butterfly, on the Live in HD shows, that really convinced me to come here. I hate the opera. The music is completely forgettable, the characters are not people you'd want to know, and the plot is kind of disgusting ... but when I went to the movie theater in Spokane and saw what the Met did with it, it was just incredible. And in the opera house it's even better. I mean, MUCH MUCH better.
> 
> I just got a customer service job here in NYC, I answer phones for a website, there's a fair amount of downtime so I can spend time here. It'd be nice to have a more prestigious position but I think the time for that is over, in my life. Eh, I feel OK. My life seems to work. There's good reasons I'm not making tons of money and having an apartment overlooking central park! And I get to indulge my love of musical theater - opera and ballet - so I can't really complain too much.


Well, you seem to be very happy! That's great, and having access to the Met... You made me jealous! The opera of Montreal is rotten, low budget productions... I had once a subscription, I cancelled it. Here always the same operas, they consider what pays off. Traviata is a big hit, also Turandot, la Bohème, Madama Butterfly, Ottelo, Faust... Always the same 10 or 12 operas. Nothing new. The singers are poor, the settings are ugly... The orchestra is just the minimum... I prefer my DVDs. I have awesome versions, sometimes dead people, like Pavarotti. Luckily I have a big screen to see Pavarotti, otherwise...

Martin


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## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

myaskovsky2002 said:


> Well, you seem to be very happy! That's great, and having access to the Met... You made me jealous! The opera of Montreal is rotten, low budget productions... I had once a subscription, I cancelled it. Here always the same operas, they consider what pays off. Traviata is a big hit, also Turandot, la Bohème, Madama Butterfly, Ottelo, Faust... Always the same 10 or 12 operas. Nothing new. The singers are poor, the settings are ugly... The orchestra is just the minimum... I prefer my DVDs. I have awesome versions, sometimes dead people, like Pavarotti. Luckily I have a big screen to see Pavarotti, otherwise...
> 
> Martin


Oh, that's too bad about the Montreal opera. But I'm sure there are benefits to living in Montreal. It's got a good general reputation as a good place to live although I don't know too much about it. Well - no ********, right? (Sorry - I have a little bit of the ******* phobia from being too close to too many of them for too long!)


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## sospiro (Apr 3, 2010)

guythegreg said:


> Well, I'm 53, bald, a guy ... Greg is my name so it's part of my Handel ... only been an opera fan for about 4 years. Became an opera fan in spokane, in early 2008, by checking out Norma at the library, and then moved to NYC in the summer of 2009 once I realized what was available here at the Met.
> 
> Actually it was Madama Butterfly, on the Live in HD shows, that really convinced me to come here. I hate the opera. The music is completely forgettable, the characters are not people you'd want to know, and the plot is kind of disgusting ... but when I went to the movie theater in Spokane and saw what the Met did with it, it was just incredible. And in the opera house it's even better. I mean, MUCH MUCH better.
> 
> I just got a customer service job here in NYC, I answer phones for a website, there's a fair amount of downtime so I can spend time here. It'd be nice to have a more prestigious position but I think the time for that is over, in my life. Eh, I feel OK. My life seems to work. There's good reasons I'm not making tons of money and having an apartment overlooking central park! And I get to indulge my love of musical theater - opera and ballet - so I can't really complain too much.


:tiphat:

That's interesting, thanks for sharing your story with us.

I'm very lucky, only a few hours from Milan, Paris, Munich, Amsterdam, Zurich etc and of course ROH just up the road (sort of) but I still envy your living & working in New York.

It doesn't matter how much money you have, a love of opera makes us all equal. The people who paid £5 & stood for 5½ hours were equally entranced by _Les Troyens_ as the people who paid a lot more & sat in the posh seats. Maybe even more so because I get the impression that some people went to _Les Troyens_ just to boast they'd seen it.


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## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

sospiro said:


> I'm very lucky, only a few hours from Milan, Paris, Munich, Amsterdam, Zurich etc and of course ROH just up the road (sort of) but I still envy your living & working in New York.
> 
> It doesn't matter how much money you have, a love of opera makes us all equal. The people who paid £5 & stood for 5½ hours were equally entranced by _Les Troyens_ as the people who paid a lot more & sat in the posh seats. Maybe even more so because I get the impression that some people went to _Les Troyens_ just to boast they'd seen it.


Oh I know, opera snobs are really something. I've noticed that when you sit in Family Circle (the top level) everybody is very friendly. When you sit in Balcony, one level below, people tend to talk about how much better their seats usually are. And then if you sit in Orchestra, on the main floor of the house, you can see little thought bubbles popping up all around you: "the prices are not high enough." lol it's kind of funny. I sat next to a couple in Balcony a few months ago who were from San Francisco and only wanted to boast about how much nicer their opera house is than ours! lol ah well, if it makes them feel good, right ... no need to complain ...


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

Annie (sospiro) and I were at Les Troyens together with some other friends, and she had got a box to guarantee that we all got in - my first time in a box - and a man the next door box said in a disappointed voice - "oh that Johan Kaufmann doesn't seem to be in it". Don't think he was that much of a diehard fan.:lol:

But you are right, Greg, about the importance of seeing opera live . I must have listened to Les Troyens about 7 or 8 times in the run up to the performance, and felt a bit lukewarm about it, but the live performance hit me like a thunderbolt. After the duet in Act 4 I literally couldn't get up off my seat to enjoy the interval, I was so overwhelmed.


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## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

mamascarlatti said:


> Annie (sospiro) and I were at Les Troyens together with some other friends, and she had got a box to guarantee that we all got in - my first time in a box - and a man the next door box said in a disappointed voice - "oh that Johan Kaufmann doesn't seem to be in it". Don't think he was that much of a diehard fan.:lol:
> 
> But you are right, Greg, about the importance of seeing opera live . I must have listened to Les Troyens about 7 or 8 times in the run up to the performance, and felt a bit lukewarm about it, but the live performance hit me like a thunderbolt. After the duet in Act 4 I literally couldn't get up off my seat to enjoy the interval, I was so overwhelmed.


lol that's so funny - Johan Kauffmann - yeh live is the best, right. I do so envy you how close you are to ROH. Of course you don't get as MANY operas a year as we do, but then you can just whip over to Europe, right? lol whip over ... gosh, if I had access to that many opera houses I'd go nuts. I'm starting to get a real pain in my chest right now, because I'm getting ready to spend an ENORMOUS sum of money to get tickets for Natalie Dessay in Tales of Hoffmann next year - and it's going to be exactly the same time the ABT's season is probably going to be showing Firebird again! Aargh! and even if I manage to clone myself only one will be able to experience either .. it's truly sad (sniff) lol hi Natalie


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## myaskovsky2002 (Oct 3, 2010)

sospiro said:


> :tiphat:
> 
> That's interesting, thanks for sharing your story with us.
> 
> ...


Are you in England? I guess you do. Lucky you. Luckier if you were near Russia. I love Russia. Ia ochien liubliu Russiu.

Here we are close to London (Ontario) and Paris (Ontario)... I guess they are not as beautiful... LOL

Tant pis (just too bad).

Montreal is nice, but it rains very often. Taxes are high, people are nice, no ******** at all. Multicultural, many Arabic people (personally I don't "love" them). They come with their veils and stuff... Chinatown is small, people say is more expensive than USA, except New York, N.Y. Is a very expensive city. I am a smoker and I paid a package 3 more dollars there! It is quite, we have many nice festivals: cinema, jazz... But for classica music is not the ideal city. Moscow is terrific and St-Petersburg, when you like Russian opera as I do. I am not bald exactly, I started shaving my head 6 years ago, when I started having awful holes in my little head. I turned 60 in December, but I feel 28.

But this is not Traviata, I guess...


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## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

yeep - time to go! will try to remember to come back here tomorrow ... see you, all ... good night!!!!


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

guythegreg said:


> lol that's so funny - Johan Kauffmann - yeh live is the best, right. I do so envy you how close you are to ROH. Of course you don't get as MANY operas a year as we do, but then you can just whip over to Europe, right? lol whip over ... gosh, if I had access to that many opera houses I'd go nuts. I'm starting to get a real pain in my chest right now, because I'm getting ready to spend an ENORMOUS sum of money to get tickets for Natalie Dessay in Tales of Hoffmann next year - and it's going to be exactly the same time the ABT's season is probably going to be showing Firebird again! Aargh! and even if I manage to clone myself only one will be able to experience either .. it's truly sad (sniff) lol hi Natalie


Ha ha Greg you have have no idea how funny that is ..... because I live in New Zealand, about as far from ROH as you can possibly get. I flew 24 hours and 18,000kms to see this opera, I spent a fortune, the project took over one year to plan, Annie (sospiro) nearly had an infarctus trying to get these tickets, and on Saturday I am going back to NZ where the whole country puts on precisely two bums-on-seats operas a year with complete unknowns singing in them.:lol:


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## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

Yeep! is my face red ... 

I just didnt notice! ah well. I'm sure it was worth every penny!


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## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

myaskovsky2002 said:


> Luckier if you were near Russia. I love Russia. Ia ochien liubliu Russiu.
> 
> Here we are close to London (Ontario) and Paris (Ontario)... I guess they are not as beautiful... LOL
> 
> ...


LOL that's so funny ... I shave my head too, have since I was 30! I get this weird looking PATCH in front if I don't! ah well, you do what you have to do eh? I'd kind of enjoy visiting Russia but all my images of it are cold, cold, cold ... too much cold!


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## mitka (Apr 22, 2012)

guythegreg said:


> And the plot! Maybe it was the production, but it just seemed so arbitrary to me, that Herman started out madly in love and then, without any segue or explanation of how it happened, suddenly he's madly in love with money ... huh? What was that about? Maybe I should read the original Pushkin, that would explain it eh?


That would, because in the original Pushkin, Hermann loves money first and last, and fakes his love to Lisa to get entry into the Countess' home and force her to reveal the secret of the Three Cards. Libretto made it much cheesier and a lot kitchier (not to say sillier) than the Puskin's original. And Lisa does not plunge herself into the river out of her unhappy love (she does fall in love with Hermann). She lives along, as does Hermann (he just goes insane). But of course, there would be no opera, at least not a romantic opera.


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## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

Oh, I get it. What a slimeball! You'd think it would be a better opera if that were clear in the plot ... well, thanks for letting me know!


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## myaskovsky2002 (Oct 3, 2010)

mitka said:


> That would, because in the original Pushkin, Hermann loves money first and last, and fakes his love to Lisa to get entry into the Countess' home and force her to reveal the secret of the Three Cards. Libretto made it much cheesier and a lot kitchier (not to say sillier) than the Puskin's original. And Lisa does not plunge herself into the river out of her unhappy love (she does fall in love with Hermann). She lives along, as does Hermann (he just goes insane). But of course, there would be no opera, at least not a romantic opera.


You are ABSOLUTELY right. I read the book. Herman or German in Russian is a gambler, he uses Lisa for getting tri carti (three cards), Tchaikovsy also changed the ending. German dies; in Pushkin's novel, German doesn't die but gets depressed and become kind of crazy. The story (Pushkin) is better, German is a neurotic obsesed by gambling. Like Dostoyevsky's-Prokofiev the gambler. In the IXX century, Russain high society had two vices: gambling and drinking. Pushkin and Dostoyevsky describe these phenomena.

Martin


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## Dakota (Jun 30, 2012)

mamascarlatti said:


> Ha ha Greg you have have no idea how funny that is ..... because I live in New Zealand, about as far from ROH as you can possibly get. I flew 24 hours and 18,000kms to see this opera, I spent a fortune, the project took over one year to plan, Annie (sospiro) nearly had an infarctus trying to get these tickets, and on Saturday I am going back to NZ where the whole country puts on precisely two bums-on-seats operas a year with complete unknowns singing in them.:lol:


WOW, now that is an opera lover! What about the Sydney Opera House, do you go there? Closer to NZ at least. Just thinking about that lead me to check out the SOH web site and they are doing Die tote Stadt right now! What a coincidence as I was just asking here why I could not find folks doing it or at least a DVD of it, lol. And they are doing Pearl Fishers which I am dying to see (and the Met is apparently going to be doing in 2015-16 unless their plans change, but that's a long wait!)


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## sospiro (Apr 3, 2010)

Dakota said:


> WOW, now that is an opera lover!


Oh yes! An opera fan without equal, amongst the people I know anyway!


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## mitka (Apr 22, 2012)

guythegreg said:


> Oh, I get it. What a slimeball! You'd think it would be a better opera if that were clear in the plot ... well, thanks for letting me know!


Isn't Hermann a slimeball enough as is? 
But back to your question: I do not know if it were better, but that would be a different opera - perhaps one that Berg would be inspired to write.


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

Dakota said:


> What about the Sydney Opera House, do you go there? Closer to NZ at least.


Yes, maybe when my kids are older I will be able to get away again. It's only a 4 hour flight.

But of course a lot of the fun of Les Troyens was meeting sospiro and other internet opera friends.


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## mitka (Apr 22, 2012)

myaskovsky2002 said:


> I hate Traviata. I have even opened a thread about that. It is so cheesy, so corny, so vulgar. De mauvais goût.
> 
> Martin


Can I please read this thread? 
What particular aspects of the plot/music you perceive as corny, cheesy, or vulgar?


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## Dakota (Jun 30, 2012)

mamascarlatti said:


> But of course a lot of the fun of Les Troyens was meeting sospiro and other internet opera friends.


Very, very cool............ did you write more here somewhere about that experience?? I would love to hear more.


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## sospiro (Apr 3, 2010)

Dakota said:


> Very, very cool............ did you write more here somewhere about that experience?? I would love to hear more.


It was absolutely fabulous. I'll do a review at the weekend when I've got a bit more time.


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## DarkAngel (Aug 11, 2010)

Hey Greggie

Since you live NYC Central Park don't forget Danni DeNiese will be doing free concert in park very soon (end of July?) also a Brooklyn Bridge concert.....

Regarding Traviata
Fortunately many great DVD/Blu ray and CD versions exist for any taste, I really love the Fleming blu ray:










And allow me to indulge is some Callas worship with her 1955 Traviata......great slide show with aria
(climax at 3:37 is so thrilling, descending notes so nicely detailed throughout)


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## myaskovsky2002 (Oct 3, 2010)

DarkAngel said:


> Hey Greggie
> 
> Since you live NYC Central Park don't forget Danni DeNiese will be doing free concert in park very soon (end of July?) also a Brooklyn Bridge concert.....
> 
> ...


She is awesome... I isually don't like this part, but she is wonderful!

martin


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## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

DarkAngel said:


> Since you live NYC Central Park don't forget Danni DeNiese will be doing free concert in park very soon (end of July?) also a Brooklyn Bridge concert.....


thanks for the tip, I really loved De Niese in Cosi fan tutte a couple seasons back - she's not a TOP singer but she has great stage presence, just took over the stage ... I remember in one show her fake nose kept falling off and she was scampering about picking it up and sticking it back on, all the while singing at the top of her lungs lol ... but it was a WONDERFUL show. I'll have to look for the dates on those concerts.

With regard to Traviata, I have the so-called "Lisbon" Traviata and unfortunately I can't enjoy it. She just hits the hammer too hard on so many notes, like she's afraid she's going to sound weak. I have Villazon in the Netrebko DVD and again, that's one I don't listen to or watch. Both singers have such unpleasant personal associations for me ... don't want to insult either one of them publicly but I can't enjoy it. Now, I like their Elisir d'Amore. It's my favorite one to watch. But Traviata ... there are so many better versions out there, I can go from one to the next for a week without hitting the same one twice.

lol I know, I'm so critical. Sorry!


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## DarkAngel (Aug 11, 2010)

guythegreg said:


> thanks for the tip, I really loved De Niese in Cosi fan tutte a couple seasons back - she's not a TOP singer but she has great stage presence, just took over the stage ... I remember in one show her fake nose kept falling off and she was scampering about picking it up and sticking it back on, all the while singing at the top of her lungs lol ... but it was a WONDERFUL show. I'll have to look for the dates on those concerts.
> 
> With regard to Traviata, I have the so-called "Lisbon" Traviata and unfortunately I can't enjoy it. She just hits the hammer too hard on so many notes, like she's afraid she's going to sound weak. I have Villazon in the Netrebko DVD and again, that's one I don't listen to or watch. Both singers have such unpleasant personal associations for me ... don't want to insult either one of them publicly but I can't enjoy it. Now, I like their Elisir d'Amore. It's my favorite one to watch. But Traviata ... there are so many better versions out there, I can go from one to the next for a week without hitting the same one twice.
> 
> lol I know, I'm so critical. Sorry!


July 25 is free concert in central park summer stage, July 27 at Brooklyn Bridge:
http://www.metoperafamily.org/metopera/news/features/detail.aspx?id=8590

Callas will always be my inspiration........


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## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

DarkAngel said:


> July 25 is free concert in central park summer stage, July 27 at Brooklyn Bridge:
> http://www.metoperafamily.org/metopera/news/features/detail.aspx?id=8590
> 
> Callas will always be my inspiration........


Well I love her Norma, of course, and her Ballo in Maschera is incomparable. Both of those operas, if I'm going to listen to one, it'll probably be one of hers. So I'm with you that far!


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

guythegreg said:


> Well I love her Norma, of course, and her Ballo in Maschera is incomparable. Both of those operas, if I'm going to listen to one, it'll probably be one of hers. So I'm with you that far!


Dark Angel is a lost cause as far as Callas is concerned. One day he might show you his shrine...


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## DarkAngel (Aug 11, 2010)

mamascarlatti said:


> Dark Angel is a lost cause as far as Callas is concerned. *One day he might show you his shrine*...


Greggie is not ready to see the Callas altar.....he will think my judgment is slightly biased :angel:


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