# Round Two: Pietà, rispetto, amore. Fischer- Dieskau, Bruson



## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)




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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

"Discussion starter" may be the most apposite couple of words that could be applied to Fischer-Dieskau's performance here. I had to ask myself what I would think of it if I didn't know I was listening to a world-famous baritone on a major record label - if, for example, I thought I was at a recital by a grad student in a university music department. In that situation, I think I would be asking three questions: 1. Why are you singing this? 2. Has your teacher told you to pursue a career in opera? 3. Do comprimario roles pay well?

I've heard F-D in quite a few operatic roles, and I've liked him in some and not in others. This is one of the latter, to the extent that it strikes me as misconceived in every way, vocally and interpretively. Macbeth might be thought of as a weak character in relation to his blowtorch of a spouse, but he shouldn't sound like a melancholy, elderly ex-professor languishing in a nursing home, clutching the ashes of his deceased wife and wishing his estranged children would visit him while he can still remember their names. Nor should he sound like a Lieder singer who could never decide whether he was a baritone or a tenor and who thus never quite met our expectations of either.

It's amusing to turn to Bruson, who can sound an awful lot like a tenor who's artificially darkened his voice to imitate a baritone, although he's definitely more the genuine article than F-D. He also presents a straightforward, if unremarkable, interpretation; his Macbeth could conceivably lead a regiment and isn't a hothouse pansy. But anyone looking for the weight, core and squillo of a classic Verdi baritone won't find them in this very discussion-starting pair of performances.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

These two performances are taken from two of the less recommendable complete recordings of the opera. The Gardelli was planned with Gobbi in mind, but he fell ill and wasn't able to do it, so Fischer-Diekau was a late replacement. The recording has its attractions (Pavarotti's Macduff, Ghiaurov's Banquo and Gardelli's conducting) but Fidi never sounds comfortable in the role of Macbeth and Souliotis was practically voiceless by this time. The Sinopoli recording also has its problems, not the least of which is Mara Zampieri's weirdly vocalised Lady. 

I like Fischer-Dieskau rather more than some people on this site appear to do, but not in Italian opera, and certainly not here. His approach is too fussy and nowhere does he fill Verdi's long, lyrical line with the sort of full tone I'm sure Verdi had in mind. Bruson's performance is much more straightforward, but, in vocal terms alone, he cedes to both Battistini (obviously) and Hvorostovsky from the first round. The two most recommendable studio sets (Abbado and Muti) have Cappucilli and Milnes in the title role, but there are also recordings with Taddei and Warren, and, though Gobbi never got to record the complete opera, he did record the aria earlier in his career.

My vote goes to Bruson, but I hope we get some more recommendable versions.


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## Shaughnessy (Dec 31, 2020)

Not that it will make any difference in the opinions expressed here but the Fischer-Dieskau video above is a fan recording which was transferred from the original 1964 LP release - You can hear the surface noise.

This version is from the remastered CD released in 2011 - It won't change anyone's opinion but the cleaner recording might take some of the edge off... although I kind of doubt it.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Tsaraslondon said:


> These two performances are taken from two of the less recommendable complete recordings of the opera. The Gardelli was planned with Gobbi in mind, but he fell ill and wasn't able to do it, so Fischer-Diekau was a late replacement. The recording has its attractions (Pavarotti's Macduff, Ghiaurov's Banquo and Gardelli's conducting) but Fidi never sounds comfortable in the role of Macbeth and Souliotis was practically voiceless by this time. The Sinopoli recording also has its problems, not the least of which is Mara Zampieri's weirdly vocalised Lady.
> 
> I like Fischer-Dieskau rather more than some people on this site appear to do, but not in Italian opera, and certainly not here. His approach is too fussy and nowhere does he fill Verdi's long, lyrical line with the sort of full tone I'm sure Verdi had in mind. Bruson's performance is much more straightforward, but, in vocal terms alone, he cedes to both Battistini (obviously) and Hvorostovsky from the first round. The two most recommendable studio sets (Abbado and Muti) have Cappucilli and Milnes in the title role, but there are also recordings with Taddei and Warren, and, though Gobbi never got to record the complete opera, he did record the aria earlier in his career.
> 
> My vote goes to Bruson, but I hope we get some more recommendable versions.


 Milnes and Warren are at bat next round. Fidi has devoted fans here so I thought it might work. At least ya'll could wax critical which is almost as much fun.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Seattleoperafan said:


> Milnes and Warren are at bat next round. Fidi has devoted fans here so I thought it might work. At least ya'll could wax critical which is almost as much fun.


Mentioning no names, I think I have a new favourite, but he doesn't seem to be in the running.


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## MAS (Apr 15, 2015)

I first heard Fischer-Dieskau’s voice right after Callas’s _Una Macchia e qui tuttora _in the Time-Life’s traversal of the music of Verdi in The Romatic Era (*The Story Of Great Music*). It was _Eri tu from _*Un Ballo in Maschera *and I loved it, whether the throbbing pulsating repeated chords before the _Eri tu _or his voice, or both, I don’t know. But that was then.

Renato Bruson made his SF Opera debut as Don Carlo in *Forza *and, at the performance I attended, choked on his saliva during one of his arias, but continued singing with some difficulty, as one might expect. Little did we know he would become one of the most famous baritones of his era.

All this because I have nothing to add to what Woodduck or Tsaraslondon have already eloquently said above.


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## Shaughnessy (Dec 31, 2020)

"(Renato Bruson) is considered by some critics the finest Rigoletto since Tito Gobbi. They appreciate his elegant and expressive phrasing, velvety tone, musical intelligence and acting qualities. He excels in long, lyrical lines. He is also appreciated for not disdaining smaller roles and for not assuming a diva attitude. Bruson once described himself in the following terms: "I am self critic enough to understand what I can get at. Since I knew I did not have a thundering voice to make coarse effects, I sought the interpretation since I think it is more important that the public go home with something in their hearts than some sounds in their ears"





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en.wikipedia.org






"The term “Verdi Baritone” gets thrown around a lot with Bruson and that’s because he conquered all the major roles by the great composer. Many pointed toward his interpretations of “Rigoletto” with his Germont and “Falstaff” also getting raves.
“I believe Renato Bruson now is _the_ Falstaff. He has the wit, the intelligence, the dignity and, of course, the voice. Basta,” stated famed conductor Carlo Maria Giulini, who picked the baritone for his famed recording of Verdi’s final opera.
“Bruson was the quintessential Verdi baritone in the second half of the last century. A Verdi baritone not as it was understood (or rather, misunderstood) in the 1950s and 1960s, but a Verdi baritone as understood and desired by the composer himself,” stated music critic Christian Springer."









Artist Profile: Renato Bruson, A Great Verdi Baritone of the 20th And Early 21st Century - OperaWire


Renato Bruson, born on Jan. 13, 1936, was born near Padua, Italy and would go on to become one of the great Italian baritones of the late 20th century. He studied music at the conservatory of Padua but did not enjoy much support from his family. Bruson himself once noted that his family thought...




operawire.com


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Shaughnessy said:


> "He is considered by some critics the finest Rigoletto since Tito Gobbi. They appreciate his elegant and expressive phrasing, velvety tone, musical intelligence and acting qualities. He excels in long, lyrical lines. He is also appreciated for not disdaining smaller roles and for not assuming a diva attitude. Bruson once described himself in the following terms: "I am self critic enough to understand what I can get at. Since I knew I did not have a thundering voice to make coarse effects, I sought the interpretation since I think it is more important that the public go home with something in their hearts than some sounds in their ears"
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I can't remember hearing Fischer-Dieskau's Rigoletto, but it was recorded around ten years earlier than Macbeth, so he was no doubt in better voice.


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## Shaughnessy (Dec 31, 2020)

Tsaraslondon said:


> I can't remember hearing Fischer-Dieskau's Rigoletto, but it was recorded around ten years earlier than Macbeth, so he was no doubt in better voice.


The quote was referring to Bruson - I edited the previous post - I didn't realize until now that it wasn't as clear as I had intended it to be.


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

I have never been a huge fan of light lyric style baritones. And that is what FD sounds like to me.
Bruson on the other hand has heft and much strength and I have always liked him in arias I have heard him in.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Shaughnessy said:


> The quote was referring to Bruson - I edited the previous post - I didn't realize until now that it wasn't as clear as I had intended it to be.


You were perfectly clear. I was (mis)reading your post on my phone and I'm not that good with the small screen.

Or have you now edited your post?


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

I love DFD singing lieder, and some operatic roles, e.g Wozzeck, but not here. Bruson got my vote, but I prefer Warren and Cappuccilli.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

SanAntone said:


> I love DFD singing lieder, and some operatic roles, e.g Wozzeck, but not here. Bruson got my vote, but I prefer Warren and Cappuccilli.


Warren ( who I love ) is next but first a detour via Wagner's crazy women.


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## Shaughnessy (Dec 31, 2020)

Tsaraslondon said:


> You were perfectly clear. I was (mis)reading your post on my phone and I'm not that good with the small screen.
> 
> Or have you now edited your post?


I just edited the post to read ""(Renato Bruson) is considered by some critics the finest Rigoletto since Tito Gobbi" - rather than "He is considered..." - I can see how it may have appeared as if I was referring to DFD.


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## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

Woodduck said:


> I've heard F-D in quite a few operatic roles, and I've liked him in some and not in others. This is one of the latter, to the extent that it strikes me as misconceived in every way, vocally and interpretively. Macbeth might be thought of as a weak character in relation to his blowtorch of a spouse, but he shouldn't sound like a melancholy, elderly ex-professor languishing in a nursing home, clutching the ashes of his deceased wife and wishing his estranged children would visit him while he can still remember their names. *Nor should he sound like a Lieder singer who could never decide whether he was a baritone or a tenor and who thus never quite met our expectations of either*.


^this




> It's amusing to turn to Bruson, who can sound an awful lot like a tenor who's artificially darkened his voice to imitate a baritone, although he's definitely more the genuine article than F-D. He also presents a straightforward, if unremarkable, interpretation; his Macbeth could conceivably lead a regiment and isn't a hothouse pansy. But anyone looking for the weight, core and squillo of a classic Verdi baritone won't find them in this very discussion-starting pair of performances.


^also all of this


I didn't like either of them at all. DFD has a weak voice, to the point where he lacks any manner of a convincing forte. At times, his timbre was straight up airy and offered no drama or sense of presence. Bruson is better, but his tendency to over-modify values cuts his potential resonance consistently. 

Let's find a better one: Giangiacomo Guelfi. He can push and lose flexibility at times, but his voice is imposing, powerful, clear. You know...how a king is supposed to sound.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

BalalaikaBoy said:


> ^this
> 
> 
> 
> ...


As I was composing my thoughts about these singers, I thought, "B-boy is going to agree with me." But I wasn't going to let that fearful prospect stop me.

Hahahahaha.

I'm not as fond of the Guelfi as you apparently are. Actually, I'm not fond of it at all. He's a bit crude, he aspirates, and he oversings. It feels inflated and completely unmoving.


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

Fischer-Dieskau isn't anybody's idea of a Verdi baritone. His instrument was too light and lacks the vocal darkness associated with that rep. However, his intelligent way with words serves him more than well and his performance is incredibly moving here. (I also like his death scene from Don Carlo.) The only other baritone to really do justice to the complex character that is Macbeth would be Milnes IMO. (I can't abide the perfectly sung, but interpretively dull Cappuccilli.)

I actually saw Bruson as Macbeth towards the end of his career and the voice had gone revealing that there was very little in his vocal make up other than a fine voice. However, this recording reveals something quite different. I'm guessing Bruson's heft and fine singing will crown him the winner of this one, but Fischer-Dieskau gives a far more nuanced performance and was obviously more connected to the role emotionally than Bruson.

I will go for Fischer-Dieskau.

N.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

The Conte said:


> Fischer-Dieskau isn't anybody's idea of a Verdi baritone. His instrument was too light and lacks the vocal darkness associated with that rep. However, his intelligent way with words serves him more than well and his performance is incredibly moving here. (I also like his death scene from Don Carlo.) The only other baritone to really do justice to the complex character that is Macbeth would be Milnes IMO. (I can't abide the perfectly sung, but interpretively dull Cappuccilli.)
> 
> I actually saw Bruson as Macbeth towards the end of his career and the voice had gone revealing that there was very little in his vocal make up other than a fine voice. However, this recording reveals something quite different. I'm guessing Bruson's heft and fine singing will crown him the winner of this one, but Fischer-Dieskau gives a far more nuanced performance and was obviously more connected to the role emotionally than Bruson.
> 
> ...


I always enjoy hearing what you have to say


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

The Conte said:


> Fischer-Dieskau isn't anybody's idea of a Verdi baritone. His instrument was too light and lacks the vocal darkness associated with that rep. However, his intelligent way with words serves him more than well and his performance is incredibly moving here. (I can't abide the perfectly sung, but interpretively dull Cappuccilli.)
> 
> I will go for Fischer-Dieskau.
> 
> N.


interpretively dull Cappuccilli?


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## ColdGenius (9 mo ago)

Macbeth is a skilled military man who faces a possibility, maybe fake, of improving his status and says why not. His wife is the main force here. But even if coup d'etat isn't his idea and he shows certain indecisiveness in the murder scene, he is pitiless enough to commit all his crimes. In the aria, I think, he regrets of his misfortune rather than repents. Nevertheless opera is attractive with a possibility of some nuances, so different voices and singers could present the character in their own way. Here we have again a lyric voice against a more dramatic one. My sympathy in this round is for more brutal Macbeth, but Fischer-Diskau's rendition has its charm.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

ColdGenius said:


> Macbeth is a skilled military man who faces a possibility, maybe fake, of improving his status and says why not. His wife is the main force here. But even if coup d'etat isn't his idea and he shows certain indecisiveness in the murder scene, he is pitiless enough to commit all his crimes. In the aria, I think, he regrets of his misfortune rather than repents. Nevertheless opera is attractive with a possibility of some nuances, so different voices and singers could present the character in their own way. Here we have again a lyric voice against a more dramatic one. My sympathy in this round is for more brutal Macbeth, but Fischer-Diskau's rendition has its charm.


I think the problem today is finding a real Verdi baritone. They were never growing on trees as the saying goes.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Seattleoperafan said:


> I think the problem today is finding a real Verdi baritone. They were never growing on trees as the saying goes.


The Verdi Baritone Tree (Baritonarborum verdianus) is native to the mountains of Italy. For nearly a century the species produced numerous individuals of magnificent size and luxuriant foliage, but in the 1920s operatic botanists discovered a fungus (_Pseudolarynxia sissiwussinambispambis_) which caused dwarfing. The tree is rarely found in Italy now, attempts to transplant it in other countries have not been fully successful, and no varieties as magnificent as past subspecies (e.g., _battistiniensis_, _ruffonensis _and _stracciariensis)_ have been observed in the last half century.


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## ColdGenius (9 mo ago)

Don't think I'm a dull beggar, but it should be spelled as Baritonarbor verdiana. Or it translates as "of baritone-trees". Botanists also like Greek terms, then it is Baritonodendron verdianum.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

ColdGenius said:


> Don't think I'm a dull beggar, but it should be spelled as Baritonarbor verdiana. Or it translates as "of baritone-trees". Botanists also like Greek terms, then it is Baritonodendron verdianum.


Obviously, operatic botanists don't know their Latin.


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## Op.123 (Mar 25, 2013)

Neither are favourites but I just find Dieskau to be a rather too self-concious singer with a lackluster voice so Bruson it is.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Op.123 said:


> Neither are favourites but I just find Dieskau to be a rather too self-concious singer with a lackluster voice so Bruson it is.


"Lackluster" is a precise word for it. In Verdi, that just won't do. There's plenty of music in which vocal luster isn't a requisite, and Fischer-Dieskau excels in much of it, but Verdi's concentrated blend of drama and lyricism, extending and intensifying the bel canto tradition, asks a singer for just about all the superior qualities a voice can possess. If the terms "Verdi baritone" and "Verdi soprano" mean anything, they mean almost everything.


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## vivalagentenuova (Jun 11, 2019)

I can't say I really liked either performance, but Bruson at least got his foot in the door by having a voice and sounding somewhat alert. To be honest, I don't like DFD even in the music he's supposed to be great at, namely lieder. I tend to find him precious rather than insightful, and I will take Gerhard Husch or Heinrich Schlusnus any day. But in Italian opera (or as Wotan!) he just sounds like wilted lettuce. 

Also, it's interesting to compare both to Battistini. Battistini's is much faster, although the fact that it's about 4 minutes makes me wonder if fitting it on the record was what determined the tempo. Still, Battistini sings it as though that were the speed he wanted, and he sounds exactly like a man who, though he has caused himself to be hated, is still pained and angered by being so. It's entirely convincing.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

vivalagentenuova said:


> I can't say I really liked either performance, but Bruson at least got his foot in the door by having a voice and sounding somewhat alert. To be honest, I don't like DFD even in the music he's supposed to be great at, namely lieder. I tend to find him precious rather than insightful, and I will take Gerhard Husch or Heinrich Schlusnus any day. But in Italian opera (or as Wotan!) he just sounds like wilted lettuce.


I don't care for F-D in most opera (and especially in Verdi), but I'd say that in general the earlier the better. In the 1950s the voice was fresh (the lettuce was moister) and the expression not so self-conscious and overemphatic. He made a very sympathetic Wolfram (Konwitschny, EMI) and Kurwenal (for Furtwangler, not later for Carlos Kleiber).



> Also, it's interesting to compare both to Battistini. Battistini's is much faster, although the fact that it's about 4 minutes makes me wonder if fitting it on the record was what determined the tempo. Still, Battistini sings it as though that were the speed he wanted, and he sounds exactly like a man who, though he has caused himself to be hated, is still pained and angered by being so. It's entirely convincing.


By contrast, F-D sounds self-pitying.


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