# Opera's Problem



## ldiat (Jan 27, 2016)

just sharing this from face book. 
https://geeks.media/opera-s-race-problem?_ga=2.9297468.847796799.1514915532-626005671.1514190590


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## Don Fatale (Aug 31, 2009)

How is this from "face book"? It's a link to another site. What am I missing here?


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## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

"Films (and Netflix) have replaced opera as the first and main source of entertainment for the general public." Does that statement strike anyone else as odd?


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## ldiat (Jan 27, 2016)

Don Fatale said:


> How is this from "face book"? It's a link to another site. What am I missing here?


hello its on my face book page by a group called "Met Opera Live in HD Fans" that i follow so i copied the site


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

> Russian soprano Anna Netrebko wore blackface when she sung Aida at the Salzburg Festival in the summer of 2017.
> 
> YouTubers immediately face justified backlash when they try to impersonate African people with make-up. So why did most critics close their eyes over Ms. Netrebko's blackface, and how could the Salzburg Festival's directors allow it in the first place?


I don't see the problem with Anna's wearing dark makup. No it was not "blackface." Blackface was more a caricature of black people. Anna was simply dressing and making up to be as accurate to the role as possible.


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## Sloe (May 9, 2014)

Fritz Kobus said:


> I don't see the problem with Anna's wearing dark makup. No it was not "blackface." Blackface was more a caricature of black people. Anna was simply dressing and making up to be as accurate to the role as possible.


Aida is about the clash of two cultures there is a point for Aida to looks different than the Egyptians.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Fritz Kobus said:


> I don't see the problem with Anna's wearing dark makup. No it was not "blackface." Blackface was more a caricature of black people. Anna was simply dressing and making up to be as accurate to the role as possible.


Wells stated, it has to stop those ridiculous people versus people, do as the composer told, full stop.


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## Granate (Jun 25, 2016)

I missed this example in the article.



> The solution to the other half of opera's race problem is also quite simple: hiring more people of colour, and in general selecting singers for their talent and not their looks. The public know they're attending an opera, and not a realistic period movie. If La Traviata's lovestruck-puppy Alfredo Germont is sung by Jonas Kaufmann and his interfering, moralistic father by Eric Owens, it will not ruin the opera because the son is white and the father is black. It will be a once-in-a-lifetime moment where two of opera's greatest voices appear together in powerful scenes and emotional duets.
> 
> [...]
> 
> ...


Though quite well informed, this is just another "entertainment" article from a digital "millenial" magazine that orders in sections like _lists, reviews, pop culture, celebrities, Television, superheroes, entertainment, vintage, cosplay..._. Don't take it too seriously, but bear in mind that many from my generation read these magazines from Facebook or Twitter. I can only thank this writer to not have put a "thank you for an opinion no one asked you for". It's been two months since I last visited a magazine like this. The one I liked best: Playground Magazine (in Spanish) started as a contemporary music review site + some rubbish news. In 2014 they finished firing all the reviewers and now they only post viral news. Not to mention their ridiculously written, moralistic views and blatant mix of information and opinion. I'm relieved I could cut all my ties and erase that feed.

I was going to post my opinion, but because I don't even know how to refer politely to people of different skin tones (for instance, mine is darker than "caucasian" (Is it accurate to say caucasian?)), I'll abstain from comment until I know how to write without using the "R" word. It's just not worth it.


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## Sloe (May 9, 2014)

It would be strange if a blond Cio-Cio San pointed out to Sharpless that her son is blond as proof that a dark haired Pinkerton is the father.

Because that seems to be what the author of the article wants or maybe just concert performances.


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## amfortas (Jun 15, 2011)

_"In opera's pantheon of stars, many black singers stand out: Kathleen Battle, Leontyne Price, Jessye Norman, Shirley Verrett. And more contemporary ones, such as Denyce Graves, Eric Owens, Lawrence Brownlee, Angel Blue and Pretty Yende. They need to be heard everywhere, and not just typecast into black or "exotic" roles. They need to be heard in works by Wagner, Puccini, Verdi, Donizetti, Massenet, Mozart, in all the popular works that audiences hold dear."_

What the hell? The singers she mentions are not "just typecast into black or 'exotic' roles." They *are* "heard in works by Wagner, Puccini, Verdi, Donizetti, Massenet, Mozart."

Does this person know anything about opera?


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## davidglasgow (Aug 19, 2017)

_"Why was [Ying Huang] not singing La Traviata or Lucia di Lammermoor at the Metropolitan Opera, instead of the soprano chosen for her looks, who blotched and ultimately skipped Donizetti's signature vocal acrobatics "_

I think this is a reference to Anna Netrebko? If that's the case, is anyone asking why Netrebko at her most famous was preferred in a period when she was essaying bel canto prima donna parts round the world, soon including Anna Bolena, while Huang's contemporary roles with the Met were just Pamina in English and Gianetta in Elisir d'amore? Can that not be explained by Netrebko's relative fame and reputation rather than her race?

Do you not think that race is a problematic explanation for a singer's success? At the Met, Sumi Jo was Lucia back in 1992, Youngok Shin also who made her mark in the role even if she was not a famous name. Similarly, Taro Ichihara was Edgardo in '94 (also the Duke, Riccardo in Ballo in Maschera, and the Italian Singer). Haijing Fu was something of an institution as Enrico on 22 occasions in the nineties.

Despite the perceived institutional racism, Hei-Kyung Hong was singing Violetta about the time you say Ying Huang was being sidelined because of her race. Indeed, Hei-Kyung Hong (her Alfredo was Wookyung Kim) broadcast in Traviata on Jan 10 & Jan 23 & Feb 1, 2007. Hei-Kyung Hong was also Liu in a transmission and the Countess Almaviva for several broadcasts. Rounding out 2007 she was Eva in Die Meistersinger, also broadcast several times. Can you explain why your theory on racism/ the lack of colour-blind casting would apply to one contemporary soprano in the same opera house and not the other?

How about instead we focus on Ying Huang as an artist who only performed 16 times at the Met but who nonetheless headlined two broadcasts/streams of Zauberflote, another broadcast in Orfeo ed Euridice as Amore, and four broadcasts in Elisir d'amore in a secondary role. That doesn't seem a bad record at all given how infrequently she performed with the company? You might think she is underrated and underutilised but to say that it was just because of her race is problematic.


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## Granate (Jun 25, 2016)

amfortas said:


> Does this person know anything about opera?


I think this person does. But I doubt this person really _cares._

It's just another entertainment article for a digital magazine. They are paid to write articles that people click on. It doesn't matter if it's an essay about a Kanye West feud or the poetry found in _The Simpsons_.

*Edit:* Geeks.media is just a plattform where anyone can log in and write about pop culture. I doubt it is a paid job because I cannot find any social media like twitter of Facebook, or LinkedIn.

*I repeat. Do not take it very seriously.*

I browsed into the Instagram of the author. She shares lots of daily-life photos (usually cats and millennial stuff), quite normal on the plattform, and a small number of operatic posts like these:


















Sophie de Merteuil is bilingual and loves cats. Also this could be her first job. I see myself writing this article if I was caught on that magazine in 2014, when I had barely started on Classical Music and only listened to Maria Callas arias. I would even express myself as poorly as she does. She seems fluent but not native in English at all. She could be in the same phase of listening. I defend that the article has a lot of information for a fast-paced entertainment magazine. She did her job for them.

But in this forum, specialised in Classical Music, her premises are at least discussable. I invite her to log in here and debate with us her only article in _Geeks,_ if she is reading us.


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## Sloe (May 9, 2014)

davidglasgow said:


> _"Why was [Ying Huang] not singing La Traviata or Lucia di Lammermoor at the Metropolitan Opera, instead of the soprano chosen for her looks, who blotched and ultimately skipped Donizetti's signature vocal acrobatics "_
> .


I don´t see what people think is so special with that film. Neither Richard Troxell or Ying Huang are pleasant to listen to. The only singer I like in that film is Suzuki and she is also singing that role live.



> Hei-Kyung Hong was singing Violetta about the time you say Ying Huang was being sidelined because of her race. Indeed, Hei-Kyung Hong (her Alfredo was Wookyung Kim) broadcast in Traviata on Jan 10 & Jan 23 & Feb 1, 2007.


Looks like type casting to me:


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

These sort of blogs are the ridiculous face of PC. Some people can't get it into their heads that opera means singing as well as acting. If we apply the reverse argument: Leontyn Price shouldn't have sung Carmen or Leonore because she was black and not Spanish? Estes shouldn't sing the Dutchman? Battle shouldn't sing Pamina or any other role by Mozart? Or we could go further and only allow Spanish people to take part in Carmen even though it is in French? The whole thing is nonsense. An actor is there to ACT - it is not real life. It is the world of pretend - the Greek word means 'mask'!


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## amfortas (Jun 15, 2011)

DavidA said:


> These sort of blogs are the ridiculous face of PC. Some people can't get it into their heads that opera means singing as well as acting. If we apply the reverse argument: Leontyn Price shouldn't have sung Carmen or Leonore because she was black and not Spanish? Estes shouldn't sing the Dutchman? Battle shouldn't sing Pamina or any other role by Mozart? Or we could go further and only allow Spanish people to take part in Carmen even though it is in French? The whole thing is nonsense.


To be fair, the author argues that black singers *should* sing white roles. Her error lies in not acknowledging that they already do.


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## Sloe (May 9, 2014)

amfortas said:


> To be fair, the author argues that black singers *should* sing white roles. Her error lies in not acknowledging that they already do.


The author argues really for more type casting and also not for type casting at the same time.
Maybe she should have taken a look at operabase.com before writing the article.


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## amfortas (Jun 15, 2011)

Sloe said:


> The author argues really for more type casting and also not for type casting at the same time.
> Maybe she should have taken a look at operabase.com before writing the article.


I suppose the justification is that, since non-white singers have fewer opportunities, they should be given the chance to sing white roles, while not having to see roles of their own ethnicity given to white singers.

While racial discrimination is a legitimate concern, I think today it may be less of a problem in opera--with its vocal meritocracy--than in many other fields.


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## Don Fatale (Aug 31, 2009)

In kowtowing (yes I know!) to those who like to push their anti-white leftist-liberal-fascist agenda to the absolute max, opera's problem will really kick in.We're coming across it a lot lately, such as this notable one.

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-wales-41608800

Given that the non-caucasian percentage of performers is likely to exceed that of a typical opera audience, how much of a problem is there? I'm all for black-face, white-face, yellow-face as appropriate, but I certainly don't demand black singers white-face, nor as far as I'm aware does anyone in the opera profession.


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

Don Fatale said:


> In kowtowing (yes I know!) to those who like to push their anti-white leftist-liberal-fascist agenda to the absolute max, opera's problem will really kick in.We're coming across it a lot lately, such as this notable one.
> 
> http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-wales-41608800
> 
> Given that the non-caucasian percentage of performers is likely to exceed that of a typical opera audience, how much of a problem is there? I'm all for black-face, white-face, yellow-face as appropriate, but I certainly don't demand black singers white-face, nor as far as I'm aware does anyone in the opera profession.


Nor do I, but you'd be surprised, there are some scary stories of the Bolshoi Ballet 'whitening up' a black american dancer...

N.


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## Don Fatale (Aug 31, 2009)

The Conte said:


> Nor do I, but you'd be surprised, there are some scary stories of the Bolshoi Ballet 'whitening up' a black american dancer...
> 
> N.


Swan Lake corps de ballet by any chance? Where all the dancers are required to look the same? Ballet dancers wear a lot of makeup and wigs.


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## Sloe (May 9, 2014)

amfortas said:


> I suppose the justification is that, since non-white singers have fewer opportunities, they should be given the chance to sing white roles, while not having to see roles of their own ethnicity given to white singers.


Then why have nobody any issue with the lack of Asian Attilas.
I going through opera base there is not a single Asian Atilla but there are Asian Odabellas and Ezios.
Even in Kazakhstan Attila was sung by an Armenian.

Or have any issue with that the Huns are aggressors.


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

Don Fatale said:


> Swan Lake corps de ballet by any chance? Where all the dancers are required to look the same? Ballet dancers wear a lot of makeup and wigs.


It looks as though this was just general advice:

https://themoscowtimes.com/news/us-ballerina-faces-discrimination-at-bolshoi-academy-29736

N.


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## OperaMaven (May 5, 2014)

Sloe said:


> Aida is about the clash of two cultures there is a point for Aida to looks different than the Egyptians.


Well, yes, but Egyptians weren't uniformly lily-white or even Mediterranean olive - it's one opera where you could get away with color-blind casting for almost everyone. It's not just a culture clash, there's a status clash as well: Aida is a slave girl in the Egyptian court, and who or what she was before that doesn't matter to them.

The one thing it is NOT, is a race clash - Egyptians didn't think like that. There were "Egyptians" and "Not-Egyptians", and the "Not-Egyptians" were of no account (as long as they didn't invade Egypt).


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## Sloe (May 9, 2014)

OperaMaven said:


> Well, yes, but Egyptians weren't uniformly lily-white or even Mediterranean olive - it's one opera where you could get away with color-blind casting for almost everyone. It's not just a culture clash, there's a status clash as well: Aida is a slave girl in the Egyptian court, and who or what she was before that doesn't matter to them.
> 
> The one thing it is NOT, is a race clash - Egyptians didn't think like that. There were "Egyptians" and "Not-Egyptians", and the "Not-Egyptians" were of no account (as long as they didn't invade Egypt).


They were olive Mediterranean.

It is obvious in the plot that Aida is foreign and is not in her country and not among her people.


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## amfortas (Jun 15, 2011)

Don Fatale said:


> In kowtowing (yes I know!) to those who like to push their anti-white leftist-liberal-fascist agenda to the absolute max, opera's problem will really kick in.


You got me! If it weren't for all those damn white people--including myself, all my family, most of my friends--I'd be so much better off. And if we could just get all the white people out of *opera*, this world would finally be a utopia. 

But don't tell anyone . . . it's a *secret* agenda . . .


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

amfortas said:


> You got me! If it weren't for all those damn white people--including myself, all my family, most of my friends--I'd be so much better off. And if we could just get all the white people out of *opera*, this world would finally be a utopia.
> 
> But don't tell anyone . . . it's a *secret* agenda . . .


Yes, but it makes so much sense, a conspiracy to get rid of white people run by white people!



N.


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## Bonetan (Dec 22, 2016)

I'm a black opera singer & I will not touch this thread with a 10-foot pole lol


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Bonetan said:


> I'm a black opera singer & I will not touch this thread with a 10-foot pole lol


If you don't speak up who will?


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## Bonetan (Dec 22, 2016)

Pugg said:


> If you don't speak up who will?


What I can say is I have experienced absolutely 0 racism to this point. It's a beautiful thing


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