# Changes to Classic FM's Piano Concerto List



## mmsbls (Mar 6, 2011)

The other day I noticed Classic FM's list of "20 best piano concertos ever written." The list is:

Beethoven’s Piano Concerto No.5 
Rachmaninov’s Piano Concerto No.2
Grieg’s Piano Concerto in A minor
Poulenc’s Concerto for Two Pianos and Orchestra
Shostakovich’s Piano Concerto No.2 
Rachmaninov’s Piano Concerto No.3
Tchaikovsky’s Piano Concerto No.1
Mozart’s Piano Concerto No.21
Chopin’s Piano Concerto No.1 in E minor 
Brahms’ Piano Concerto No.2
Beethoven’s Fourth Piano Concerto
Beethoven’s Piano Concerto No.3
Mozart’s Piano Concerto No.20
Shostakovich’s The Assault on Beautiful Gorky 
Ravel’s Piano Concerto in G major
Bartók’s Piano Concerto No. 2
Rachmaninov’s Rhapsody on a Theme of Paganini 
J.S. Bach’s Keyboard Concerto in D minor
Haydn’s Concerto No 11 for Keyboard in D major 
Brahms’ Piano Concerto No.1

Many here will object to the term "best", and some will complain that not all are piano concertos. OK. I assume each of us would change the list at least somewhat to include works we find "better" or more to our liking. I suggest that we replace 5 works with 5 we prefer. Obviously, some will want to completely redo the list. That's fine as well, but I'd like to see the top 5 changes.


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## mmsbls (Mar 6, 2011)

Here are my changes. I tried to substitute a work from a contemporary or close to contemporary composer.

Shostakovich’s Piano Concerto No.2 (Shostakovich No. 1)

I love Shostakovich’s first piano concerto. The trumpet is simply so fun. 

Chopin’s Piano Concerto No.1 in E minor (Hummel No. 3 in B minor)

I do like Chopin’s concertos, but I’ve never loved them. I think Hummel is generally overlooked as a very fine composer. His 3rd concerto is one of my favorites not just from him but for anyone.

Shostakovich’s The Assault on Beautiful Gorky (Debussy Fantasy for Piano and Orchestra)

Shostakovich’s film piece is nice but not in the class of the others. I love Debussy’s piano works including his concerto.

Rachmaninov’s Rhapsody on a Theme of Paganini (Franck No. 2)

Although this work is wonderful, it’s another non-concerto. Franck’s Symphonic Variations is listed in the TC Top 100 Keyboard Concerti, but his second piano concerto is not. Still, I simply love the work so I’ll substitute it.

Haydn’s Concerto No 11 for Keyboard in D major (Mozart No. 24)

I could substitute several Mozart concertos for many of the works here. But the 24th concerto I think is underrated. It’s probably my second favorite Mozart concerto after the 20th.


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## howlingfantods (Jul 27, 2015)

Craaaazy that there's no Liszt or Prokofiev on this ranking.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

I’d pull:
Haydn’s Concerto No 11 for Keyboard in D major 
J.S. Bach’s Keyboard Concerto in D minor
Poulenc’s Concerto for Two Pianos and Orchestra
Rachmaninov’s Rhapsody on a Theme of Paganini 
Shostakovich’s The Assault on Beautiful Gorky 

And substitute:
Mozart’s Piano Concerto No. 23
Poulenc’s Concert champêtre
Prokofiev’s Piano Concerto No. 2
Prokofiev’s Piano Concerto No. 3
Shostakovich’s Piano Concerto No. 1


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## tdc (Jan 17, 2011)

I would take these out:
Shostakovich’s The Assault on Beautiful Gorky 
Haydn’s Concerto No 11 for Keyboard in D major 
Brahms’ Piano Concerto No.1
Rachmaninov’s Rhapsody on a Theme of Paganini 
Beethoven’s Piano Concerto No.5 

And substitute these:
Bartok Piano Concerto No. 1
J.S. Bach Concerto in F minor BWV 1056
Mozart Piano Concerto No. 24
Prokofiev Piano Concerto No. 2
Ravel Piano Concerto for the left hand


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## Strange Magic (Sep 14, 2015)

The Gorky's Gotta Go. Replace with Prokofiev No.1
Replace Chopin with Prokofiev No.2
Replace Haydn with Prokofiev No. 3
Change the ordering (another time), but the rest can stay, with several essential additions: Schumann, Hovhaness, more Bartók, more Mozart, the Ravel Left Hand....


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## howlingfantods (Jul 27, 2015)

I'd remove:

Grieg’s Piano Concerto in A minor
Poulenc’s Concerto for Two Pianos and Orchestra
Shostakovich’s The Assault on Beautiful Gorky 
Ravel’s Piano Concerto in G major
Haydn’s Concerto No 11 for Keyboard in D major 

I'd add:

Liszt 1
Prokofiev 3
Chopin 2
Medtner 2
Ravel Left Hand


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## mmsbls (Mar 6, 2011)

Classic FM explicitly said the order was random. The one change I did not make that bothered me was Schumann. I wanted to include that, but I didn't have a good contemporary work to drop.


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

There are only 2 changes I'd make:

It's ridiculous to have Shosty's Gorky - replace with Schumann's piano concerto.

Replace the Haydn with Mozart's piano concerto no. 17.


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## DaveM (Jun 29, 2015)

mmsbls said:


> Classic FM explicitly said the order was random. The one change I did not make that bothered me was Schumann. I wanted to include that, but I didn't have a good contemporary work to drop.


How could anyone exclude the Schumann especially with exquisite performances such as these that are memorable for all sorts of reasons.


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## Littlephrase (Nov 28, 2018)

I love Shostakovich as much as the next guy, but what is Assault on Beautiful Gorky doing there?


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## Open Book (Aug 14, 2018)

Remove

Beethoven 3rd
Haydn
Shostakovich 1 
Shostakovich 2
Poulenc

Replace with 

Liszt # 1
Prokofiev 2
Mozart 19 
Mozart 25
Mozart 27

I'd probably remove more, like remove both Rachmaninov. #3 is better than 2.
The Grieg hangs on by a thread mostly due to the slow movement.
I like these three, it's just that I think the Mozart concerti are the pinnacle. I'd replace these three with any Mozart numbered in the twenties that hasn't been covered.


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## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

Mozart should have 4 concertos in that list

K466
K491
K488
K503

arguably more and the above could be swapped by half a dozen others

the Haydn concerto - nice little work but shouldnt be there.


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## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

mmsbls said:


> Here are my changes. I tried to substitute a work from a contemporary or close to contemporary composer.
> 
> Shostakovich's Piano Concerto No.2 (Shostakovich No. 1)
> 
> ...


yes it does seem to be - even here on TC - members put Beethoven's c minor PC ahead which seems to me incorrect.


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## Open Book (Aug 14, 2018)

PlaySalieri said:


> Mozart should have 4 concertos in that list
> 
> K466
> K491
> ...


Reminds me of when movie critics make Oscar predictions and judgments. They may put each nominee in one of three categories: "will win", "should win" and "shouldn't be there".


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Frankly Classic FM is a station I like as background listening when driving but I wouldn't trust to make terribly deep musical judgments. The concertos listed tend to be the best known and most popular. As Mozart wrote the most sublime set of piano concertos ever written only to include two is laughable. When it comes to the 'best' there is a wide divergence of opinion.


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## Open Book (Aug 14, 2018)

It's not a list we should take too seriously, it's there to give people something to talk about. I'm surprised Gershwin wasn't on it replacing one of the Shostakoviches.


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## CnC Bartok (Jun 5, 2017)

The FM in Classic FM stands for "F%£& Me, this is insipid"

Please can somebody add the Scriabin concerto to the list?


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## mmsbls (Mar 6, 2011)

I don't listen to Classic FM myself, and I know it's good sport to make fun of anything the station plays or posts. Still most of the works listed would be considered reasonable by just about any group of listeners (14 are in the top 30 of the TC recommended piano concertos list). 

The question here was to substitute "better" concertos for those on the list. Two are not concertos so those are fair game. What I wondered was what concertos members would choose to substitute and to see how much they varied. 

I think selection of Franck (mine), Gershwin, Hovhaness, and Scriabin are interesting. I like them all.


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

It is a list for Classic FM listeners so we shouldn't be too hard on it. They know their audience and there are some great pieces on the list for them to explore. Did John Williams write a piano concerto? Personally, I would remove some or all Shostakovich (his piano concertos are lightweight works that do not show him in a good light IMO) and I would certainly have more Mozart. The Haydn concerto is a good one but probably doesn't belong in a top 20 so it should be replaced by some Mozart. I would have liked to see a Prokofiev and why not live dangerously with a Bartok?


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## tdc (Jan 17, 2011)

Enthusiast said:


> It is a list for Classic FM listeners so we shouldn't be too hard on it. They know their audience and there are some great pieces on the list for them to explore. Did John Williams write a piano concerto? Personally, I would remove some or all Shostakovich (his piano concertos are lightweight works that do not show him in a good light IMO) and I would certainly have more Mozart. The Haydn concerto is a good one but probably doesn't belong in a top 20 so it should be replaced by some Mozart. I would have liked to see a Prokofiev and why not live dangerously with a Bartok?


Yes, the lack of Prokofiev is the most glaring omission (along with the Schumann PC), but I am pleased to see Bartok PC #2 _is_ on the list (as it should be). Yes, more Mozart should be there.

Forgetting to mention it in my earlier post I would also be pleased to see Schnittke's _Concerto for Piano and Strings_. I feel it is deserving.


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

^ I missed the Bartok and forgot the essential Schumann (how could I?). Schnittke's concerto would indeed be a great addition and needs that sort of advocacy to take its deserved place in the repertoire.


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## Strange Magic (Sep 14, 2015)

Let me be the first to mention the absence of the name of Camille Saint-Saëns from any list. While Camille composed several very fine works, it is curious--is it not?--that the piano, his forte as a performer, so eluded his comprehension as a composer that none of his five concertos appear anywhere mentioned here.


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## Fabulin (Jun 10, 2019)

Carl Czerny - Piano Concerto in C major for four hands, Op.153 is a fair contender


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## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

I think the list is great except for the inclusion of non piano concertos like the Shostakovich’s The Assault on Beautiful Gorky (1 shorter movement and too Hollywood) and Rachmaninov’s Rhapsody on a Theme of Paganini. I think everyone would like to include some of their favourites in there, but then there is no way to tell which are better conclusively. Sure I would like to see Prokofiev, but am ok with it not there either. I say keep the Haydn in there!

Just for fun, after removing the 2 non-concertos, then throw in Prokofiev's 2nd or 3rd, and Lutoslawski's.


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## poconoron (Oct 26, 2011)

Mozart should have at least 5 on that list:

# 17,20,21,24,25

Beethoven #3 should be removed..............


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

poconoron said:


> Mozart should have at least 5 on that list:
> 
> # 17,20,21,24,25
> 
> Beethoven #3 should be removed..............


Nonsense. An 1805 review compares B's 3rd with "Mozart's greatest concertos," and not to its disadvantage. The review adds, "...with respect to its effect on the mind and its impact, this concerto is one of the most excellent among all that have ever been written." I think that reviewer had it about right.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

KenOC said:


> Nonsense. An 1805 review compares B's 3rd with "Mozart's greatest concertos," and not to its disadvantage. The review adds, "...with respect to its effect on the mind and its impact, this concerto is one of the most excellent among all that have ever been written." I think that reviewer had it about right.


_"I always find Beethoven's C Minor concerto (the Third Piano Concerto) much smaller and weaker than Mozart's. . . . I realize that Beethoven's new personality and his new vision, which people recognized in his works, made him the greater composer in their minds. But after fifty years, our views need more perspective. One must be able to distinguish between the charm that comes from newness and the value that is intrinsic to a work. I admit that Beethoven's concerto is more modern, but not more significant!"_
https://books.google.ca/books?id=7iwZ-qTuSkUC&pg=PA134
https://books.google.ca/books?id=7iwZ-qTuSkUC&pg=PA135


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## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

hammeredklavier said:


> _"I always find Beethoven's C Minor concerto (the Third Piano Concerto) much smaller and weaker than Mozart's. . . . I realize that Beethoven's new personality and his new vision, which people recognized in his works, made him the greater composer in their minds. But after fifty years, our views need more perspective. One must be able to distinguish between the charm that comes from newness and the value that is intrinsic to a work. I admit that Beethoven's concerto is more modern, but not more significant!"_
> https://books.google.ca/books?id=7iwZ-qTuSkUC&pg=PA134
> https://books.google.ca/books?id=7iwZ-qTuSkUC&pg=PA135


I'd go with Ken's quote from Allgemeine musikalische Zeitung. Beethoven's 3rd was always more direct for me, not necessarily better. It's beyond us to judge which is better.


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## mmsbls (Mar 6, 2011)

Phil loves classical said:


> I'd go with Ken's quote from Allgemeine musikalische Zeitung. Beethoven's 3rd was always more direct for me, not necessarily better. It's beyond us to judge which is better.


You don't have to judge which is better, but you can suggest which you prefer. I love Mozart's (obviously not all but a good many) and Beethoven's piano concertos (including the 1st) to the point that few others could compete. Schumann, Rach 2, and Brahms are in the running. I wouldn't drop Beethoven 3 for a Mozart, but I'd drop several others in this list.

I purposely did not include modern (other than Prokofiev and Shostokovich) piano concertos in my substitutions, but I do love Schnittke's and Lutoslowski's.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

hammeredklavier said:


> _"I always find Beethoven's C Minor concerto (the Third Piano Concerto) much smaller and weaker than Mozart's. . . . I realize that Beethoven's new personality and his new vision, which people recognized in his works, made him the greater composer in their minds. But after fifty years, our views need more perspective. One must be able to distinguish between the charm that comes from newness and the value that is intrinsic to a work. I admit that Beethoven's concerto is more modern, but not more significant!"_
> https://books.google.ca/books?id=7iwZ-qTuSkUC&pg=PA134
> https://books.google.ca/books?id=7iwZ-qTuSkUC&pg=PA135


That's an interesting quote from Brahms. Of course, it was late in his life. Years earlier, he modeled the finale of his 1st Piano Concerto, the very first of his orchestral works to be performed, on the same movement of Beethoven's 3rd Piano Concerto. I guess he liked it well enough then!


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

^ I don't think Brahms was saying he didn't like the work or even didn't value the model. He was just putting it into perspective.


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