# Music composed by AI



## Bellerophon (May 15, 2020)

Does anyone have a favourite piece of music written by an AI?
Or any thoughts on the future of music written by AI?


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Does James Tenney use AI? I very much like his set of eight Spectrum pieces - I listen often. 

And what about Rytis Mazukis?

I’m not sure if AI is used to create the feedback in Pauline Oliveros’s Sound Geometry.


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

Bellerophon said:


> Does anyone have a favourite piece of music written by an AI?
> Or any thoughts on the future of music written by AI?


Do you? I am completely unfamiliar with any music written using AI. However, right off the bat I am against the idea; I want a person, you know, an eater and breeder, to be writing the music.


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## gregorx (Jan 25, 2020)

Ah, soulless music.


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## mmsbls (Mar 6, 2011)

I find it hard to believe that AI will not eventually be able to compose music similar to if not more interesting/beautiful/engaging than any person can. The real question to me is whether AI must be essentially conscious to do so. And since one wouldn't necessarily know whether a person or AI created the music, it won't matter to most people which one composed it. 

I have heard some music composed by computers (not what I would call AI), and it is a bit better than I expected though still not much to listen to.


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## gregorx (Jan 25, 2020)

mmsbls said:


> I find it hard to believe that AI will not eventually be able to compose music similar to if not more interesting/beautiful/engaging than any person can. The real question to me is whether AI must be essentially conscious to do so. And since one wouldn't necessarily know whether a person or AI created the music, it won't matter to most people which one composed it.
> 
> I have heard some music composed by computers (not what I would call AI), and it is a bit better than I expected though still not much to listen to.


It doesn't matter. What's the point? Why is this something anyone would want?


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## mmsbls (Mar 6, 2011)

gregorx said:


> It doesn't matter. What's the point? Why is this something anyone would want?


Two reasons:

1) Researchers try to create AI performing various difficult tasks to learn more about the brain and consciousness.

2) Some believe a general purpose human level AI would be enormously beneficial for many individuals and for society as a whole. Solving difficult problems for AI is one way of achieving general purpose intelligence.


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## gregorx (Jan 25, 2020)

mmsbls said:


> Two reasons:
> 
> 1) Researchers try to create AI performing various difficult tasks to learn more about the brain and consciousness.
> 
> 2) Some believe a general purpose human level AI would be enormously beneficial for many individuals and for society as a whole. Solving difficult problems for AI is one way of achieving general purpose intelligence.


Okay, fine, but that's not what the OP is about. I'm saying any art created by artificial intelligence is artificial and has no value as art. Data could combine the techniques of all the great violinists and play a pretty mean Mozart. Impressive, but meaningless. I'd rather hear it by a child just learning the instrument.


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## mmsbls (Mar 6, 2011)

gregorx said:


> Okay, fine, but that's not what the OP is about. I'm saying any art created by artificial intelligence is artificial and has no value as art. Data could combine the techniques of all the great violinists and play a pretty mean Mozart. Impressive, but meaningless. I'd rather hear it by a child just learning the instrument.


I believe art created by human level AI would be indistinguishable from (or possibly superior to) human art. In my view both would be created by complex machines, and either both would be meaningless or both would be meaningful. Basically, the artificial in AI would simply mean created by humans (or other AI) rather than born; whereas, the artificial as an adjective to art means something entirely different (and inappropriate in my view).

I assume you do not believe that. That's fine.


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

mmsbls said:


> I believe art created by human level AI would be indistinguishable from (or possibly superior to) human art. In my view both would be created by complex machines, and either both would be meaningless or both would be meaningful. Basically, the artificial in AI would simply mean created by humans (or other AI) rather than born; whereas, the artificial as an adjective to art means something entirely different (and inappropriate in my view).
> 
> I assume you do not believe that. That's fine.


Do you believe that AI brought to a high level would become human?


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## mmsbls (Mar 6, 2011)

SanAntone said:


> Do you believe that AI brought to a high level would become human?


No. AI might be electrochemical rather than biochemical, for example. AI would not have human chromosomes or maybe any chromosomes. Humans would be completely different, but possibly there could be some kind of mapping from the human brain to the AI that would show great similarities.

I think maybe you're asking something slightly different from what I answered.


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## 59540 (May 16, 2021)

SanAntone said:


> Do you? I am completely unfamiliar with any music written using AI. However, right off the bat I am against the idea; I want a person, you know, an eater and breeder, to be writing the music.


I would think this would be the apotheosis of Cage's removing the ego and letting the music be the music.


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

mmsbls said:


> No. AI might be electrochemical rather than biochemical, for example. AI would not have human chromosomes or maybe any chromosomes. Humans would be completely different, but possibly there could be some kind of mapping from the human brain to the AI that would show great similarities.
> 
> I think maybe you're asking something slightly different from what I answered.


I was asking about capabilities, not organic makeup. Do you foresee AI reaching the level of human capability and able to create music just like humans?


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## mmsbls (Mar 6, 2011)

SanAntone said:


> I was asking about capabilities, not organic makeup. Do you foresee AI reaching the level of human capability and able to create music just like humans?


Well, I posted this, and I believe it.



mmsbls said:


> I find it hard to believe that AI will not eventually be able to compose music similar to if not more interesting/beautiful/engaging than any person can.


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

mmsbls said:


> Well, I posted this, and I believe it.


I hope you are wrong. I have had my doubts about the efficacy of high-tech's impact on our culture and society, and my worst fears have begun to be realized. What you describe would be the final stage and I hope I am long dead if that should come to be.


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## MarkW (Feb 16, 2015)

I have a question whether or not AI can create music which has an emotional effect on a human listener -- and whether or not that's a necessary or sufficient quality to call something music. (I once read an introductory definition of a musical experience as the intersection of time and expressiveness -- however we can characterize expressiveness.) I also once read an SF story in which an alien visitor went to a concert and afterwards complimented the composer on his cleverness. The musical experience in the human way was completely lost on it... Is that something an AI can do?


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## musicrom (Dec 29, 2013)

Not exactly "AI" but I once wrote a really basic program to generate random notes/durations, and I think it actually didn't sound so bad.

I'm not personally familiar with any AI classical music, although I know I've heard some a long time ago. I think it's an interesting concept, but unlikely to be at the same level as professional composers, at least for a quite some time. Tasks that require creativity are typically not well-suited for artificial intelligence. But I bet that a programmer with a deep knowledge of classical music could probably still come up with something pretty good.


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## gregorx (Jan 25, 2020)

SanAntone said:


> I was asking about capabilities, not organic makeup. Do you foresee AI reaching the level of human capability and able to create music just like humans?


I think it would be able to create music, but not just like humans. If AI learned the collective works of Bach, Mozart, LVB, it could mimic the sound. But that's all it would be. Nobody could convince me otherwise.

And to mmsbls, no, I was not using artificial as an adjective to describe art. You can have a debate on who's better, Vermeer or a guy who throws cans of paint at a canvas, but there is no artificial art there.


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## mmsbls (Mar 6, 2011)

gregorx said:


> And to mmsbls, no, I was not using artificial as an adjective to describe art. You can have a debate on who's better, Vermeer or a guy who throws cans of paint at a canvas, but there is no artificial art there.


If I understand you correctly, you mean that, by definition, any art created by an artificial thing (e.g. AI) would then be artificial even if it had all the characteristics of human generated art. Personally, I wouldn't care how the art were generated, but rather I would care how it looked or sounded.


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## gregorx (Jan 25, 2020)

mmsbls said:


> If I understand you correctly, you mean that, by definition, any art created by an artificial thing (e.g. AI) would then be artificial even if it had all the characteristics of human generated art. Personally, I wouldn't care how the art were generated, but rather I would care how it looked or sounded.


All the characteristics of human generated art? Except for that one little thing - it's not human. It has no feelings. It doesn't feel anything. It doesn't know, it doesn't feel, the effect that music has on humans, so it only knows that the notes it has put together are evoking an emotional response because its program tells it that. So it is in every sense of the word, artificial. We seem to have gone full science fiction here, but just to finish my thought, I'm not disagreeing that it's possible the thing could produce some music that might sound good to some. I could be fooled. But I would care how the art was generated.


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## Prodromides (Mar 18, 2012)

Bellerophon said:


> Does anyone have a favourite piece of music written by an AI?


Yes. One of my favorite Requiems was completed in 1984 by *A*ndrew *I*mbrie.


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## Prodromides (Mar 18, 2012)

Don't forget that over a dozen *Godzilla* movies from Toho studios was scored by AI - *A*kira *I*fukube, that is.


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## ZJovicic (Feb 26, 2017)

I agree with mmsbls, if true human level, or superhuman level AI is ever created, it would be indistinguishable or superior to humans in all abilities, including composing music. If it ever comes to pass we might just listen in awe and disbelief as we witness the greatest works of classical music giants easily pale in comparison to what AI can compose. The only limit to appreciation of such music would not be AI, but our human minds... Perhaps our brains are too primitive to appreciate music that is so advanced. But then, on the other hand, a truly superhuman AI would be superior to us in _all_ domains, not just creation of advanced music, but also in creation of human understandable music... it could be able to write symphonies in the style of Beethoven, only way better than him... or songs like those by Beatles, only way better.

This of course, only if the AI wants to do it and is friendly. But even if it doesn't want it, it would still be able to do it, if it's instrumental in achieving some other of its actual goals. However, it might be that AI, instead of wanting to compose music, has entirely different goals, some of which could even pose an existential threat to humanity... but then, this is a whole another topic.


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## mmsbls (Mar 6, 2011)

gregorx said:


> All the characteristics of human generated art? Except for that one little thing - it's not human. It has no feelings. It doesn't feel anything. It doesn't know, it doesn't feel, the effect that music has on humans, so it only knows that the notes it has put together are evoking an emotional response because its program tells it that. So it is in every sense of the word, artificial. We seem to have gone full science fiction here, but just to finish my thought, I'm not disagreeing that it's possible the thing could produce some music that might sound good to some. I could be fooled. But I would care how the art was generated.


One difference between your thoughts and mine may be that you are talking about the present. "It has no feelings" "...it only knows..." That's true today. You say "we seem to have gone full science fiction here." Of course we're talking science fiction. Today's AI is incredibly primitive compared to what is necessary to generate music equal to Stravinsky or Lutoslawski. I don't know when an AI will equal or exceed human intelligence, but certainly it's at least a hundred years off or maybe 10 million years.

I mentioned that one interesting question is whether the AI must be conscious. Another question would be whether it needs to feel. I suspect neither is _necessary_ to understand how to create music humans would love. When you say "it only knows that the notes it has put together are evoking an emotional response", don't you think that's what human composers are doing? Sure they also may feel the music, but I see no reason that they absolutely need to do so.

I agree that present or near-term AI will in no way create music on the level of great human composers.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

SanAntone said:


> Do you? I am completely unfamiliar with any music written using AI. However, right off the bat I am against the idea; I want a person, you know, an eater and breeder, to be writing the music.


I'm amazed you of all people haven't explored James Tenney's music.


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## Knorf (Jan 16, 2020)

SanAntone said:


> I hope you are wrong. I have had my doubts about the efficacy of high-tech's impact on our culture and society, and my worst fears have begun to be realized. What you describe would be the final stage and I hope I am long dead if that should come to be.


Same. The future is dystopian.


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## fbjim (Mar 8, 2021)

I think the use of AI is more likely to be (ab)use of algorithms and machine learning as a deliberate effect, and less attempts to replace human creativity.


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## janxharris (May 24, 2010)

Knorf said:


> Same. The future is dystopian.


Would you care to elaborate why you feel so?


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## Bellerophon (May 15, 2020)

Music composed by AI is something I have only just discovered so I can't say I have a favourite just yet, I was interested if anyone had any recommendations.

As for the second question, I think AI will one day create pieces of music that are as beautiful and emotionally engaging as anything written by a human composer. Possibly it will create music that human listeners will only begin to appreciate decades later. It does seem counter-intuitive that a machine, which does not itself feel emotions, could create something which inspires feelings in others but I'm not sure the intuition stands up to further thought. An AI can beat a grand master at chess without any competitive will to win, and presumably has no sense of achievement in having does so. It merely does something it has learned by imitation better than anyone (anything) else.


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## Bellerophon (May 15, 2020)

Bach or AI Which is which?


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## 59540 (May 16, 2021)

Bellerophon said:


> Bach or AI Which is which?


They're very similar, and I didn't have time to watch the whole video right now...but did the AI start out with simply the single-line chorale melody or was it fed a Bach harmonization and then it just mimicked it?


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