# Bruckner conducting in the 21st Century



## rw181383 (Aug 4, 2017)

Hello TC Members:

Begrudgingly going through Nezet-Seguin's Bruckner cycle on Atma Classique (just finished #4), I started thinking about who can carry the Bruckner-conducting torch through the first half of the 21st Century. I went through my collection and made some notes. Here's a brief summary of 21st Century Bruckner so far (apologies if I missed someone):

Since 1999 there have been quite a few established, good-to-great, conductors that have passed: Georg Tintner (1999), Takashi Asahina (2001), Heinz Rögner (2001), Günter Wand (2002), Carlo Maria Giulini (2005), Kurt Sanderling (2011), Wolfgang Sawallisch (2013), Claudio Abbado (2014), Lorin Maazel (2014), Kurt Masur (2015), Nikolaus Harnoncourt (2016), Stanislaw Skrowaczewski (2017), and Lopez-Cobos (2018).

I don't think much else needs to be said about these artists and their contribution to Bruckner's genius.

***

The 2nd group are entering or are already in the twilight years of their careers (or retired): Dennis Russell Davies (73), Daniel Barenboim (75), Riccardo Chailly (75), Mariss Jansons (75), Riccardo Muti (76), Christoph Eschenbach (78), Marek Janowski (79), Zubin Mehta (81), Eliahu Inbal (82), Gennady Rozhdestvensky (86), Christoph von Dohnanyi (88), Bernard Haitink (89), Herbert Blomstedt (90), and Ken-Ichiro Kobayashi (90).

I find it interesting that I listen to/revisit very few from this group: Barenboim 5th (Teldec), Mehta 9th (Decca), and 4, 7-9 from Kobayashi.

***

The last group range from the very young to those close to their 70's: Cornelius Meister (38), Andris Nelsons (39), Remy Ballot (41), Yannick Nezet-Seguin (43), Marcus Bosch (48), Paavo Jarvi (55), Daniele Gatti (56), Yutaka Sado (56), Toshiyuki Kamioka (57), Franz Welser-Möst (57), Simone Young (57), Jaap van Zweden (57), Christian Thielemann (58), Ivor Bolton (59), Manfred Honeck (59), Roberto Paternostro (61?), Simon Rattle (63), Gerd Schaller (63?), Martin Sieghart (67), and Mario Venzago (69).

Dividing this group into three sub-groups-through age 54, 55-59, and 60-69-here are a few thoughts:

*Cornelius Meister* - Symphonies 4, 7, and 9 - I have only heard the 4th and 9th and was very impressed. I believe Meister has great potential.

*Andris Nelsons* - Symphonies 3, 4, and 7 (April 2018 release) - No. 3 didn't make much an impression, but shows promise. The 1st movement is the main drawback. There is a substantial improvement in Nelson's grasp of architecture and interplay between the pastoral, romantic, and dramatic elements in No. 4. Looking forward to see if No. 7 continues this trend.

*Remy Ballot* - Symphonies 3, 5, 6, 8, 9 - I only have No.3 and haven't been able to purchase/stream the others yet. Taking Celibidache to the extreme, especially in No. 3 (1873 version - 86 minutes!), it was definitely a unique listening experience. I have to revisit (disclosure-I love Celi's 4th and 8th on EMI).

*Yannick Nezet-Seguin* - Symphonies 1-9 (No. 3 recorded twice) - As I wrote above, I just finished No. 4 from YNL's complete cycle and so far it has been the hardest cycle to get through! Not even the Bolton or Paternostro cycles gave me this much reluctance to keep going. No. 4 is a marginal improvement on the first three, but I don't have much hope for the rest of the cycle. In another thread, Becca mentioned that YNL recorded the 3rd in Dresden (Profil) and that it is worthy listening. That gives me hope!

*Marcus Bosch* - Symphonies 00-9 - Haven't had the inclination to purchase this set.

*Paavo Jarvi* - Symphonies 2, 4-9 - I haven't purchased any of Jarvi's commercial Brucker as of yet, but I did get private recordings of No. 5 and No. 8. They were excellent! In the latest Bruckner Discography newsletter John Berky mentions that a complete cycle will be released this year. I'm really looking forward to that!

*Daniele Gatti* - No commercial recordings - I included Gatti because of a private recording of No. 9 (Amsterdam, January 2017) that made a very good impression and more importantly, him being the Chief Conductor of the RCO. Who knows?

*Yutaka Sado* - Symphonies 4,9 - The main reason I include Sado is his recording of No. 4 (2016). I feel it's one of the greatest recordings of the 4th in the last 25 years! The 9th is very good as well. More Bruckner from Sado!!

*Toshiyuki Kamioka* - Symphonies 4, 7 - More excellent Bruckner! And again, more from Kamioka!!

*Franz Welser-Möst* - Symphonies 4, 5, 7-9 (CD and DVD) - FWM's 5th on EMI is one of my favorite recordings of that great work. I haven't seen or purchased the DVD's.

*Simone Young* - Symphonies 00-9 - Overall this is a good set, but I'm not as impressed as many others are with Young's cycle. A revisit may be in my future soon.

*Jaap van Zweden* - Symphonies 1-9 - I'm only familiar with No. 5 from JvZ's cycle. Is this worth looking into?

*Christian Thielemann* - Symphonies 1-9 (CD and DVD) - I have Thielemann's No. 5 on DG and No. 8 on Profil. I find them above average, but maybe I need to have another listen/look.

*Ivor Bolton* - Symphonies 1-9 - I don't remember much about this cycle, except that No. 5 was above average. Does that mean I need to revisit? Or does it mean what I think it means?

*Manfred Honeck* - Symphony No. 4 - Honeck is another conductor who I hope records more commercial Bruckner. The 4th is very good and the private recordings of 8 and 9 show excellent potential.

*Roberto Paternostro* - Symphonies 0-9 - Another cycle that left me thinking: why did I just listen to this (see Bolton)? The sound is not good and the interpretations are below average. I can say with 99% certainty that I won't be going back to this cycle again.

*Simon Rattle* - Symphonies 4,7,8, and 9 (CD and BPO Digital Concert Hall) - The bit and pieces that I have seen didn't leave me with an urge to explore further. I'm not a Rattle fan, which probably has something to do with my blasé attitude towards his Bruckner, but I will give it another try someday.

*Gerd Schaller* - Symphonies 00-9 - Just purchased and received Schaller's cycle. I've read some good things about this set so...we'll see.

*Martin Sieghart* - Symphonies 1,3,4,5, and 8 - Solid Brucknerian.

*Mario Venzago* - Symphonies 0-9 - I've heard excerpts from this set and thought it was comical.

***

So, what does the future of Bruckner conducting look like 10, 20, 30 years from now? I really look forward to your thoughts, disagreements, additions, etc. Especially to those who have seen/heard any of the above (and others) in concert!

Paul*

*Thank you to Merlinus for starting the YNS and Nelsons thread!


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## Granate (Jun 25, 2016)

Wow! Thank you for this thread and your post, RW. This is a great debate.

I usually think that, unlike Mahler (conductor + sound quality), the key for a Bruckner cycle success is that the conductor has been able to create a distinct orchestral sound (Chicago Symphony, Staatskapelle Dresden, Wiener Philharmoniker, Berliner Philharmoniker, Bayerischen Rundfunks), and that the recording label is able to portray it on CDs.

I think the Wiener Philharmoniker has not been able to become a solid Bruckner reference because of them lacking a Head conductor, and it's like some recordings made by Stein, Böhm, Giulini and Karajan, were successes out of luck.

I've always considered the *Simone Young* Cycle with Original Versions as the newest jewel of the Bruckner discography (especially in recordings of earlier versions) without many mannerisms but giving her all. This set fulfills the two duties for me: Germanic orchestral sound (Hamburger Philharmoniker) similar to the first Eugen Jochum set and a great recording quality by Oehms (which can also be found in Skrowaczewski).

I do congratulate *Mario Venzago's* will to break all the rules. For me he succeeds in certain symphonies and crashes in others. I wish to own that set one day because it's one of a kind.

I really liked *Gerd Schaller's* set because of the sound quality. I should revisit it one day. Performances are enjoyable.

If I ever own a SACD set one day with a top hi-fi, I would get the *Zweden* cycle. I really like many of the performances (not the mature symphonies), adding to the incredible sound quality.

The *Ivor Bolton* set was a great disappointment. It was a very different orchestral sound but the conducting was so tiring... Won't revisit it.

*Gatti...* I'm yet to hear a great Bruckner Cycle by the Concertgebouworkest Amsterdam. I didn't like at all the recent Jansons recordings there.

*Andris Nelsons* has the advantage of an orchestra with years of experience in Bruckner (including a cycle with Herbert Blomstedt) and a record label who can provide the necessary 24/96 SQ. It's all in his hands.

And seeing the general negative reviews for the *Nézet-Séguin* cycle, I don't know how much is to blame in Atma. YNS has spent years in the Montréal Orchestra so they should have gotten the proper sound. I think he may be too young and his future career is way brighter than today. Anyway, almost no orchestra outside Germany has succeeded in creating a credible Bruckner sound (only Chicago with a completely different approach).

However, I'm really eager for the *Christian Thielemann* set with the SKD. I never get tired saying it. I think his style suits bruckner a lot and I can see it in two extremes in the Profil label: an ok, decent No.4, an elastic and soaring No.8 and an unbeliebable No.7.

In comparison to "Wagner singing in the 21st century", I'm way more optimistic with our current conductors.


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

*Semyon Bychkov* should be included - I heard him conduct a very fine Bruckner 8 in Chicago a couple of years back....


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

Granate said:


> I usually think that, unlike Mahler (conductor + sound quality), *the key for a Bruckner cycle success is that the conductor has been able to create a distinct orchestral sound* (Chicago Symphony, Staatskapelle Dresden, Wiener Philharmoniker, Berliner Philharmoniker, Bayerischen Rundfunks), *and that the recording label is able to portray it on CDs*.


Wow ... I find that highlighted comment to be absolutely amazing ... and baffling. Any competent conductor and good orchestra can create a distinct sound but just what does it have to do with an understanding of the Bruckner idiom, symphonic structure, and how to make the result be a realistic representation of the symphony? There are plenty of recordings out there which fit your comments about sound but where the conductor just doesn't 'get' (or perhaps know how to get) what a Bruckner symphony is all about.


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## Merl (Jul 28, 2016)

I'm halfway through Nezet-Seguin's cycle now and it's a frustrating listen. I can understand his standpoint on Bruckner. He takes a relaxed view of the symphonies and tries to let the music breathe. Unfortunately the orchestra take this as 'play slowly and with little passion'. I actually feel a bit sorry for him. He just doesn't get the sound that i think he wants from his forces. He has success in the 2nd (which I Like a lot) but elsewhere it just all sounds a bit flat. The 7th is average, the 4th is boring and I'm halfway through a largely dull 6th. As for Young's Bruckner I have the complete set and love it. Venzago is very different but some of those wacky accounts do work (but not 4&7 For me). Im with Granate in liking the new Thielemann recordings. I look forward to hearing the lot.


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## merlinus (Apr 12, 2014)

I would rate Thielemann at or near the top of today's Bruckner conductors. I initially had an aversion to him, mostly due his pronounced political views and comments, but I am now able to put that completely aside and immerse myself in his interpretations.

All the recordings have superb SQ: 4, 7, and 8 with SKD, and 5 with MPO, which I just finished auditioning. His approach is expansive, not as much as Celibidache, but it is fully engaging, uplifting, inspiring, and transcendent, which is, for me, what Bruckner's music is all about. I look forward to the complete set.

The SQ of van Zweden/NRSO is also superb, especially in SACD. I very much enjoyed all, but felt he went too fast in no. 4.

Simone Young's performances are also excellent, but I seriously dislike her choice of editions, so I will not be listening to any of them again.

Andris Nelsons has made a good start with SKD, and the SQ is excellent in 24/96. No. 4 is superb, no. 3 less so, and I eagerly await no. 7.


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## merlinus (Apr 12, 2014)

Andris Nelsons is recording with the LGO, not SKD. Sorry for the mistake, and too late to edit the post.


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## SmokeyBarnable (Sep 11, 2017)

not impressed by RCBO under Gatti. Saw them in Carnegie hall (9th symphony) and they paled in comparison to Barenboim and the statskapelle last year.

hard to believe that they were as recently as ten years ago the premier bruckner ensemble.


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## rw181383 (Aug 4, 2017)

Thanks to all for the comments so far! I’ll respond in more detail when time allows. 

Granate, my apologies for the miscommunication in the OP. I would like feedback on not only those that have recorded or are recording cycles, but on Bruckner 21st Century conducting in general (recordings and performances).


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## rw181383 (Aug 4, 2017)

Merl said:


> I'm halfway through Nezet-Seguin's cycle now and it's a frustrating listen. I can understand his standpoint on Bruckner. He takes a relaxed view of the symphonies and tries to let the music breathe. Unfortunately the orchestra take this as 'play slowly and with little passion'. I actually feel a bit sorry for him. He just doesn't get the sound that i think he wants from his forces. He has success in the 2nd (which I Like a lot) but elsewhere it just all sounds a bit flat. The 7th is average, the 4th is boring and I'm halfway through a largely dull 6th. As for Young's Bruckner I have the complete set and love it. Venzago is very different but some of those wacky accounts do work (but not 4&7 For me). Im with Granate in liking the new Thielemann recordings. I look forward to hearing the lot.


Merl, thank you for the comments! I have stopped listening to the YNL cycle. I could only get through the 1st movement of the 6th and had to put it away for the time being. So far it has been a very frustrating listen. For Symphonies 1-5 I did a comparison with other recordings from my collection and it was no contest (and I didn't even pick my favorites!).

Simone Young - I'll have to revisit at some point. I wasn't impressed the first time through.

Venzago - I wish I could say the same as you. Maybe someday?

Thielemann - I will do more listening and studying!


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## rw181383 (Aug 4, 2017)

SmokeyBarnable said:


> not impressed by RCBO under Gatti. Saw them in Carnegie hall (9th symphony) and they paled in comparison to Barenboim and the statskapelle last year.
> 
> hard to believe that they were as recently as ten years ago the premier bruckner ensemble.


SmokeyBarnable, thank you for the comment! This is good to know. Not that there is a direct correlation, but I saw Gatti conduct Parsifal at The Met back in February 2013 (first performance of the Giraud production) and liked his interpretation. I felt he had a good feel of the drama and architecture of each act and the work as a whole.


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## rw181383 (Aug 4, 2017)

merlinus said:


> I would rate Thielemann at or near the top of today's Bruckner conductors. I initially had an aversion to him, mostly due his pronounced political views and comments, but I am now able to put that completely aside and immerse myself in his interpretations.
> 
> All the recordings have superb SQ: 4, 7, and 8 with SKD, and 5 with MPO, which I just finished auditioning. His approach is expansive, not as much as Celibidache, but it is fully engaging, uplifting, inspiring, and transcendent, which is, for me, what Bruckner's music is all about. I look forward to the complete set.
> 
> ...


Merlinus, thank you for the comments!

Thielemann - I will definitely spend more time with his recordings!

van Zweden - I will add his cycle to my wishlist.

Young - As I mentioned before, I wasn't impressed the first time around. The editions may have something to do with it as well.

Nelsons - I'm looking forward to the 7th!


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## rw181383 (Aug 4, 2017)

Granate said:


> Wow! Thank you for this thread and your post, RW. This is a great debate.
> 
> I usually think that, unlike Mahler (conductor + sound quality), the key for a Bruckner cycle success is that the conductor has been able to create a distinct orchestral sound (Chicago Symphony, Staatskapelle Dresden, Wiener Philharmoniker, Berliner Philharmoniker, Bayerischen Rundfunks), and that the recording label is able to portray it on CDs.
> 
> ...


Granate, thank you for the comments!

Bruckner and his distinct orchestral sound - I don't think I follow you very well here. I believe the orchestral sound is important, but not at the expense of the spirit of Bruckner's music. Architecture/structure, the interplay and synergy between the spiritual/dramatic/mysterious/pastoral/gesangsperiode passages, relationships between tempi and dynamics, and the delineated blending of the polyphonic element are what I look for in Bruckner conducting and interpretation. Again, I don't know if I'm misunderstanding what you wrote, but the Vienna recordings you reference are some of the greatest ever. Do you mean because a cycle hasn't been recorded they don't count?

I think it's safe to say there are many recordings that capture the "Bruckner sound" but fall way short in spirit of the Bruckner idiom.


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## Granate (Jun 25, 2016)

rw181383 said:


> Again, I don't know if I'm misunderstanding what you wrote, but the Vienna recordings you reference are some of the greatest ever. Do you mean because a cycle hasn't been recorded they don't count?


You express yourself way better than I do. *I think my mistake was to talk about recordings without counting that many people have attended live performances.* I have only attended a live Bruckner 5 in Málaga and was quite satisfied overall, although I had heard cleaner brass and more precision in many recordings than in that concert. Too bad I couldn't share the experience with my friend.

I own Bruckner symphonies 6-9 with the Wiener Philharmoniker on CD (Stein 6, Böhm 7,8 & Giulini 9) I really love them. However, I haven't listened to any Bruckner 1-5 from the WPO that I liked, not even the ones from Decca. I say this because of so many WPO Bruckner recordings that have let me down in comparison to others with the BPO. And if people didn't rave them so much (Böhm 3,4, Karajan last 7), I wouldn't be so disappointed.

Sorry if I don't read as deep in Bruckner's music as you do.


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## rw181383 (Aug 4, 2017)

Granate said:


> You express yourself way better than I do. *I think my mistake was to talk about recordings without counting that many people have attended live performances.* I have only attended a live Bruckner 5 in Málaga and was quite satisfied overall, although I had heard cleaner brass and more precision in many recordings than in that concert. Too bad I couldn't share the experience with my friend.
> 
> I own Bruckner symphonies 6-9 with the Wiener Philharmoniker on CD (Stein 6, Böhm 7,8 & Giulini 9) I really love them. However, I haven't listened to any Bruckner 1-5 from the WPO that I liked, not even the ones from Decca. I say this because of so many WPO Bruckner recordings that have let me down in comparison to others with the BPO. And if people didn't rave them so much (Böhm 3,4, Karajan last 7), I wouldn't be so disappointed.
> 
> Sorry if I don't read as deep in Bruckner's music as you do.


No apology necessary! And thank you for clarifying.

By the way, love your challenge posts on Bruckner and Wagner!


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