# Serious question about perfect pitch



## MarkW (Feb 16, 2015)

How "perfect" is it? Can one really tell the difference between A440 and A442? Or is there a spectrum of abilities that range from "Yeah, that's an A" to "Your A is ever so slightly higher than mine?"


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

https://www.talkclassical.com/54761-a440-hz-vs-a432.html?highlight=A440+and+A442

Just started.


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

MarkW said:


> How "perfect" is it? Can one really tell the difference between A440 and A442? Or is there a spectrum of abilities that range from "Yeah, that's an A" to "Your A is ever so slightly higher than mine?"


Good question - if the two pitches are played simultaneously, sure, one can hear the difference...but to just sound the pitch, without any other reference, I don't think one can say absolutely that the pitch is A = 441, or 444, or whatever. I've known people claim to be able to do so, but I've never seen it proven in an actual test.


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## Strange Magic (Sep 14, 2015)

Here's an excellent article on the subject:

https://www.nytimes.com/1990/12/23/...e-more-to-music-than-meets-a-typical-ear.html


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## Roger Knox (Jul 19, 2017)

I have *absolute pitch*. What is misnamed "perfect pitch" is actually *absolute pitch*, which is the ability to identify the actual note or notes heard. If I hear an A (approximately 440 hz) I call tell that it's an A -- this will be A approximately as I have learned it playing a piano or other instrument.

If A=442 or A=432 is played I will hear it as an A, but not be able tell what the frequency is. If a note exactly half way between A and A-flat is played I may be confused, then will guess it to be one or the other.

If some one has *relative pitch*, and they are told the pitch they hear is an A, and then an F below is played, they will be able to sing or play the two pitches back, and/or say the lower note is an F.


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

Roger Knox said:


> I have *absolute pitch*. What is misnamed "perfect pitch" is actually *absolute pitch*, which is the ability to identify the actual note or notes heard. If I hear an A (approximately 440 hz) I call tell that it's an A -- this will be A approximately as I have learned it playing a piano or other instrument.
> If A=442 or A=432 is played I will hear it as an A, but not be able tell what the frequency is. If a note exactly half way between A and A-flat is played I may be confused, then will guess it to be one or the other..


That is certainly consistent with other people I've known who had absolute pitch.


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

I've had several close friends with this capacity. One of them would identify out of tune pitches by saying something like "It's a G but it's a bit flat" (assuming A440). I have no idea how far off a note had to be for her to make this judgement. Others had less acuity.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Roger Knox said:


> I have *absolute pitch*. What is misnamed "perfect pitch" is actually *absolute pitch*, which is the ability to identify the actual note or notes heard. If I hear an A (approximately 440 hz) I call tell that it's an A -- this will be A approximately as I have learned it playing a piano or other instrument.
> 
> If A=442 or A=432 is played I will hear it as an A, but not be able tell what the frequency is. If a note exactly half way between A and A-flat is played I may be confused, then will guess it to be one or the other.
> 
> If some one has *relative pitch*, and they are told the pitch they hear is an A, and then an F below is played, they will be able to sing or play the two pitches back, and/or say the lower note is an F.


Yes. I know. I read the play, Death of a Pitchman.


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## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

I have good relative pitch like a lot of musicians. Not perfect pitch, but there is one oddity that a lot of musicians have developed over a lifetime: when someone plays an A, you can instantly tell if it's flat, in-tune, or sharp. Just that one note. Probably from having heard it and tuned to it hundreds (thousands!) of times over the years. It's not just a frequency thing: there's a timbre issue involved, too. You get the feel of your instrument and you can tell. But it only seems to be that A. Weird.


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## Barelytenor (Nov 19, 2011)

Those who have pitch, whether "perfect," relative, or absolute, are on a spectrum of abilities like most talents. Those who are interested in such phenomena can learn much about musicians and how they go about (or lose the ability to go about, or relearn the ability to go about, after some kind of loss or damage) their musical activities through reading the psychologist and wonderful writer Oliver Sacks, e.g. in _Musicophilia_ or _The Man Who Mistook His Wife for a Hat._

Those with absolute or relative pitch go about their business in different ways. Some can smell pitches, some can taste pitches, some see pitches as different colors, some simply "hear" pitches, I with a good relative-pitch ability as a lifelong singer can nearly always come within a half-step of singing a correct pitch simply by "feeling" where it lies vocally within my instrument.

But there are "synesthetes" in the world, those who have synesthesia, who can perform remarkable feats. Synesthesia means where one sense stimulates another: numbers have colors or shapes, the sounds of instruments or pitches have different appearances, etc. There are many variations.

Anyway. One longtime singer friend of mine has color-pitch synesthesia to an incredible degree. To him A was bright yellow. Since the eye can supposedly perceive millions of colors, I believe he could perceive millions of subtle pitch gradations (although I have never actually pressed him on that point). I do know that he sang in some modern-music groups that sang microtones, and he could very accurately sing any such music by seeing its fine differences in color.

For many years, he was the "pitch pipe" of our large group of singers, who live all over the world--that is, he always gave the starting pitches for each song (we sing everything _a cappella)_. A few years back, we decided to get together for a concert tour. I was asked to help conduct the group, and sing as well (no pressure there). Since he and his wife had moved far away, I sent him a note and asked him, would he provide pitches as usual? He begged off. So, I brought my trusty manual little red pitch pipe that I keep handy, I tooted the pitches from it, and off we went.

But one morning over breakfast, I had an opportunity to ask my friend why he no longer would give the pitches. He said, "As I get older, I find that my color sense is not as keen as it used to be when I was younger. There is one shade of blue that I can no longer distinguish. Unfortunately, it is B-flat!"

Kind regards, :tiphat:

George


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## Roger Knox (Jul 19, 2017)

hpowders said:


> Yes. I know. I read the play, Death of a Pitchman.


Feeling reelly confused this morning -- wasn't that play by the great "Pitch" Miller . . . or maybe he was the one who rote "King" Arthur?


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

mbhaub said:


> I have good relative pitch like a lot of musicians. Not perfect pitch, but there is one oddity that a lot of musicians have developed over a lifetime: when someone plays an A, you can instantly tell if it's flat, in-tune, or sharp. Just that one note. Probably from having heard it and tuned to it hundreds (thousands!) of times over the years. It's not just a frequency thing: there's a timbre issue involved, too. You get the feel of your instrument and you can tell. But it only seems to be that A. Weird.


Speaking of strange pitch anomalies: I used to be able to produce exact pitches on command in one situation: in the couple of seconds between the time a needle was dropped onto a vinyl LP and the sounding of the first pitch of the recording, that is, assuming I knew what the starting pitch was going to be. So, if one dropped the needle into the lead-in groove before Rachmaninoff's Second Symphony, I could give you a B, Shostakovich's Tenth, an E, and so on.

Oh wait! I just tried thinking of the beginning of the Rachmaninoff 2nd and then went to the piano to see if I got the opening B right. Apparently it works without the record too. But in the record situation above I didn't have to think about it.


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## MarkW (Feb 16, 2015)

EdwardBast said:


> Speaking of strange pitch anomalies: I used to be able to produce exact pitches on command in one situation: in the couple of seconds between the time a needle was dropped onto a vinyl LP and the sounding of the first pitch of the recording, that is, assuming I knew what the starting pitch was going to be. So, if one dropped the needle into the lead-in groove before Rachmaninoff's Second Symphony, I could give you a B, Shostakovich's Tenth, an E, and so on.
> 
> Oh wait! I just tried thinking of the beginning of the Rachmaninoff 2nd and then went to the piano to see if I got the opening B right. Apparently it works without the record too. But in the record situation above I didn't have to think about it.


There are some notes I can get pretty close to by remembering the beginnings of pieces I know well. A from the Mahler Sixth; F from Beethoven's Eighth; E-flat from the Eroica; traffic noise from 4'33"


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## premont (May 7, 2015)

MarkW said:


> There are some notes I can get pretty close to by remembering the beginnings of pieces I know well. A from the Mahler Sixth; F from Beethoven's Eighth; E-flat from the Eroica; traffic noise from 4'33"


This very often works for me. For control I just tried to recall the beginning of Beethoven's Eight - and got the notes right.


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## premont (May 7, 2015)

EdwardBast said:


> Speaking of strange pitch anomalies: I used to be able to produce exact pitches on command in one situation: in the couple of seconds between the time a needle was dropped onto a vinyl LP and the sounding of the first pitch of the recording, that is, assuming I knew what the starting pitch was going to be. So, if one dropped the needle into the lead-in groove before Rachmaninoff's Second Symphony, I could give you a B, Shostakovich's Tenth, an E, and so on.
> 
> Oh wait! I just tried thinking of the beginning of the Rachmaninoff 2nd and then went to the piano to see if I got the opening B right. Apparently it works without the record too. But in the record situation above I didn't have to think about it.


Does it work with a CD too? Because using LPs, you may be able - maybe unconsciously - to perceive the pre - echo.


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

premont said:


> Does it work with a CD too? Because using LPs, you may be able - maybe unconsciously - to perceive the pre - echo.


I thought of pre-echoes but they simply aren't there when the effect takes place. I think perhaps the sound of the needle in the groove was evoking some Pavlovian response. It doesn't work with CDs, I suspect because it is just silent before the music starts.


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## EddieRUKiddingVarese (Jan 8, 2013)

EdwardBast said:


> I thought of pre-echoes but they simply aren't there when the effect takes place. I think perhaps the sound of the needle in the groove was evoking some Pavlovian response. It doesn't work with CDs, I suspect because it is just silent before the music starts.


I knew there was a reason records are better


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## Roger Knox (Jul 19, 2017)

Wow I've learned a lot from this post about variations in how people recognize pitches. Enough that I should maybe drop my Absolutist spiel?


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## Barelytenor (Nov 19, 2011)

^ There are more things in Heaven and Earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy.

Kind regards, :tiphat:

George


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## Nate Miller (Oct 24, 2016)

I had a friend in music school that had the rare form of perfect pitch where she saw colors associated with the pitches. As far as I could tell, she knew when my instrument was in tune with itself, but a little sharp or flat

I currently play with a pianist that has dead perfect pitch, and yes a little sharp or flat and I get asked to tune up, so I have to say Dan can hear 440 vs 442. And honestly, if you tune up with your ears, I can hear that, too. And I don't have perfect pitch. I hear better and am more accurate than electronic tuners.

I used to live with a fellow that was a low brass player, and Steve believed that perfect pitch can be taught, so he would do drills with me. while we were living together I was able to tune up with out a pitch standard, but then I've played all my life, I'm pretty sure I know what an "A" sounds like, and that is all "perfect pitch" really is. Its just a perfect memory for sound.

you can't possibly be born knowing what A440 sounds like, but you can be born with a good aural memory, and that is what makes perfect pitch what it is


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

On your own instrument, it is pretty easy to tell pitch levels....the tone quality is the primary clue....i can tell if a particular reed is usable, whether it will play in tune, at the desired level A = 440 - 442 or so.
I've heard people claim that they can tell [without reference pitch] the exact pitch level of A or any other tone....but I've never seen it substantiated. I've seen it disproved numerous times.
I used to play a trick on my 5tet members, when tuning up....I'd play an A, letting everyone hear it,, then I'd play it again, with resonance key added....the tone was perceptably "brighter" in quality, even tho the pitch was actually slightly LOWER....invariably, the others would judge it to be sharper in pitch.


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