# Is Beethoven's "Kreutzer Sonata" just slightly overcooked?



## Kieran (Aug 24, 2010)

In the second movement, after listening to about 776 variations on a theme, I was slightly varied-out. Did he not go a bit barmy here, and leave nothing for the listener to fill in with their own imaginations? The opening movement is very tasteful and briliant, and the second gets off to a great start, for about - oh - 45 minutes or so?

Then there's the plucked string variation (#72), the grated cheese variation (#435), so-called because by that stage in my cooking (I listen while I cook) I've burnt the dinner and am beginning the following days lunch. The church mouse variation (#567) is one of my favourites because it seems to be about 7 minutes of absolute silence, and if you're quick enough, you can switch it off, or skip to the third movement, in all innocence. If you're not quick enough, the next variation is called the original gangsta. Loud and brash and swinging bling, Beethoven in full fist pump mode.

There seems to be variations upon variations, music that displays great virtuosity and range, music that takes the rag and wrings it dry, but sometimes it seems excessive, to my ears. Not _tasteless_, but not necessary, either.

Does anybody else have a sort of love-hate thingy with the Kreutzer, or is it just me? I find it all to be a little overdone. Just a smidgen?


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## Bettina (Sep 29, 2016)

I adore the Kreutzer variations. To my ears, they are cooked to perfection. Each variation builds on the previous one, creating a goal-oriented structure.

For instance, the first variation uses repeated notes in the violin. The second variation intensifies this motive, adding semitones for decoration. The third variation then presents a new melody based on those semitones. And so on...

If I tried grating cheese while listening to these variations, I'd probably end up with scrapes all over my hands! For me, listening to Beethoven while cooking is dangerous--even worse than driving while intoxicated! :lol:


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

That Beethoven! Always writing variations. Just too lazy to think up a second tune for the movement, I'd say!


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## ArtMusic (Jan 5, 2013)

The sonata is perfect. Fact.


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## Kieran (Aug 24, 2010)

Bettina said:


> I adore the Kreutzer variations. To my ears, they are cooked to perfection. Each variation builds on the previous one, creating a goal-oriented structure.
> 
> For instance, the first variation uses repeated notes in the violin. The second variation intensifies this motive, adding semitones for decoration. The third variation then presents a new melody based on those semitones. And so on...
> 
> If I tried grating cheese while listening to these variations, I'd probably end up with scrapes all over my hands! For me, listening to Beethoven while cooking is dangerous--even worse than driving while intoxicated! :lol:


Cooking while intoxicated on Beethoven is kinda dangerous, alright! :lol:

See, the technical aspects of what he's doing, which you describe so clearly, are a foreign language to me, unfortunately. I approach all music with a laymans flapping ears, grasping things only in relation to other things I've heard, but without the understanding of any nuance or intention of the composer. So I always love to read about what they're doing, and I appreciate when it's clearly described - as you have above. And yet still, I can't help but feel that to my (flapping) ears, he's possibly explored the variations _too much?_ Does this sound terribly philistinic of me? What I mean is, sometimes it almost sounds like the musical equivalent of bureaucratic box-ticking, covering every possible option and so becoming an exercise of showing off the composers great range, their great knowledge, but after a while it gets _too heavy?_

I know I'm fumbling with the language, but do you know what I mean?

And like I said above, I have a love-hate relationship with this piece so obviously I don't always feel this way, but when I do, I grate cheese so fast and furious, I have scrapes on my elbows... :lol:


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## Bettina (Sep 29, 2016)

Kieran said:


> Cooking while intoxicated on Beethoven is kinda dangerous, alright! :lol:
> 
> See, the technical aspects of what he's doing, which you describe so clearly, are a foreign language to me, unfortunately. I approach all music with a laymans flapping ears, grasping things only in relation to other things I've heard, but without the understanding of any nuance or intention of the composer. So I always love to read about what they're doing, and I appreciate when it's clearly described - as you have above. And yet still, I can't help but feel that to my (flapping) ears, he's possibly explored the variations _too much?_ Does this sound terribly philistinic of me? What I mean is, sometimes it almost sounds like the musical equivalent of bureaucratic box-ticking, covering every possible option and so becoming an exercise of showing off the composers great range, their great knowledge, but after a while it gets _too heavy?_
> 
> ...


Yes, I definitely see your point. Beethoven was a huge show-off. He loved to flaunt his greatness as a composer--and performer. In fact, he wrote the Kreutzer sonata for himself to perform on piano (with Bridgetower on violin).

I happen to love Beethoven's swaggering attitude, but I can see why these variations might strike some listeners as sounding "over-composed"!


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

To me one of the greatest chamber works. But you can't please all the people all the time - not even Lud could


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

I don't listen to the Kreutzer anymore. I prefer the Brahms Violin Sonatas, in particular, No. 1 in G. At this stage of my life, the Brahms speaks to me. The Beethoven Sonata doesn't.


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## DaveM (Jun 29, 2015)

KenOC said:


> That Beethoven! Always writing variations. Just too lazy to think up a second tune for the movement, I'd say!


Too many notes! Just take out a few and it will be perfect.


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## arnerich (Aug 19, 2016)

hpowders said:


> I don't listen to the Kreutzer anymore. I prefer the Brahms Violin Sonatas, in particular, No. 1 in G. At this stage of my life, the Brahms speaks to me. The Beethoven Sonata doesn't.


Even the 10th Violin sonata? I hear a lot Brahms in that piece, particularly the 2nd movement, so beautiful.


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## arnerich (Aug 19, 2016)

I do love the Kruetzer sonata, especially the second movement. Proportionately it is a bit too long though and I do prefer it without the repeats taken.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

ArtMusic said:


> The sonata is perfect. Fact.


Enough said I think so + 1.


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## Judith (Nov 11, 2015)

Love it. Like the way the piano and violin are having a conversation with each other!


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## pcnog11 (Nov 14, 2016)

Kieran said:


> In the second movement, after listening to about 776 variations on a theme, I was slightly varied-out. Did he not go a bit barmy here, and leave nothing for the listener to fill in with their own imaginations? The opening movement is very tasteful and briliant, and the second gets off to a great start, for about - oh - 45 minutes or so?
> 
> Then there's the plucked string variation (#72), the grated cheese variation (#435), so-called because by that stage in my cooking (I listen while I cook) I've burnt the dinner and am beginning the following days lunch. The church mouse variation (#567) is one of my favourites because it seems to be about 7 minutes of absolute silence, and if you're quick enough, you can switch it off, or skip to the third movement, in all innocence. If you're not quick enough, the next variation is called the original gangsta. Loud and brash and swinging bling, Beethoven in full fist pump mode.
> 
> ...


How do you want your 'steak' done?


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## Kieran (Aug 24, 2010)

pcnog11 said:


> How do you want your 'steak' done?


A good vet could revive it...


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