# Haydn Symphony Series Part 6: 51-60



## Ramako

The next in line of the Haydn symphonies, the oft-neglected 50's... Still there are many gems here.

I have also finally discovered how to do a table , so here are numberings and years now in a NEW AND IMPROVED FORMAT 



Hoboken NumberingOrder of compositionYear of composition515717735252177153721778/177954611774556017745663177457641774584217675944176860621774


http://www.haydn107.com/index.php?id=21&lng=2

Previous Haydn symphony threads: Previous Haydn symphony threads: 1-10, 11-20,21-30, 31-40, 41-50


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## Ramako

I haven't voted yet because I want to spend more time on them first. I know two of them (52 and 53) however the third, while I may vote for 51, I'm not entirely sure yet. I must confess that I find almost all of these to have attractive qualities of some kind, perhaps more so than the 40's set, although I consider the 40's to reach greater heights, both individually and overall.

What's even better is that this year I'm doing a project which I have chosen to do on Haydn symphonies, centring around 52, so I will even be able to persuade myself I'm doing useful work at the same time


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## Arsakes

"L'Imperiale", "Feuersymphony" and "Il Distratto" are masterpiece. I also voted for "The Schoolmaster". I need to listen to other symphony in this decade...


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## Hausmusik

Regrettably, I have in my collection about no more than five or six symphonies from No. 51 through No. 80 inclusive, so I'll have the lie low until you get to "Paris". . .

I do love "Il Distratto" and "Fire," but I hesitate to cast a vote for them as it implies a vote against symphonies I haven't heard.


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## clavichorder

Ahhhh! What have I been doing? I missed this thread. Well, I voted 51 and 53. I have probably heard most of the others, but not so many times. 51 and 53 however, are among my favorite Haydn symphonies of all. 51 especially. That one is so well written, being both fleshed out and polished. All mvts. are excellent. 53 has an excellent slow intro to its first mvt., and it had the wealth of ideas that foreshadows the late period, and I am not surprised to learn that it was composed later given its relative spaciousness.

I do need to listen to this set again though. The problem is that I don't have them all in my iTunes library, there are a few missing. Youtube I guess.


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## Ramako

Well, I voted for 51, 52 and 53. However there are very many I like: 56 and 57 both have very good first movements and 58,59 and 60 are also good. Of these I have only been unable to get into 54 and 55. This decade made up a huge proportion of my listening for a time, and it was through over-familiarity not unfamiliarity that I had difficulty voting at first.

51 is a very good symphony all in all as clavichorder says. I will just relate the general trivia that the second movement has some remarkable horn parts, including I think, the highest notes for horns in the repertoire.

52 is also very good. I love the first movement particularly, and the last is quite good. The middle movements just don't quite make the cut. It seems likely that I will focus on this symphony in my extended essay project this year so I am quite familiar with it. I would just say, look out for the passage near the end of the recap in the first movement - it is really astonishing!

53 is really excellent. It has no dull movements, I think even the minuet is interesting. But really my favourites are the second movement and the last. Who can not go away from this not whistling the tune to the second movement? And the last movement manages to produce enormous momentum by motoric repetition: it is really a very neat technique!


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## clavichorder

Indeed the horn parts in 51 mvt. 2 are very dangerous sounding(probably make the players really nervous). I recall liking the finale but can't think of it off hand. The minuet was above average at least, but possibly better, I need a re listen, as it may have had an exceptional trio. 

Thanks for the pointers on 52. I recall another user here considered that among his favorites. 

53 has so much diversity. The arpeggios in the first mvt. might even put off a classical era denigrator as bland, but even they will have to admit that it keeps moving with ingenious variety. Great piece for teaching new listening skills for thematic development. I'll have to check out that finale again, I recall being pretty impressed but wouldn't have been able to state the reasons.


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## Ramako

Just interestingly, it is this decade rather than any other which documents an important transition in the classical period. While the Sturm und Drang is clearly an evolution of the gallante language, what happens here is more of a revolution, if a minor one.

Robbins Landon tells the narrative that Esterhazy and Haydn's other audience did not understand the great Sturm und Drang pieces he was composing, so he fell to a more popular style to get more cash. He particularly denigrated 53 as a greatly overrated work. This interpretation is problematic: his op. 20 quartets, surely the quintessence of the Sturm Und Drang style, were an enormous success!

Charles Rosen tells the narrative that the Sturm Und Drang was a stylistic dead end because it was fundamentally uncoordinated. Haydn could not find any way of taking this style forward so he renounced what he had and subsequently gained a more coordinated and cohesive musical language. This is also problematic, since the 'flaccid coordination' of the various parts result in some of the greatest music Haydn ever composed.

Here we have some core works of the Sturm und Drang style: symphony 52, 58, 59... 53 is really very typical, if an unusually good example, of Haydn's music between the Sturm und Drang and the 'popular' style of the London period, or at least the Paris symphonies. Between this we have symphonies 54-57 which bridge the gap. 60, although apparantly written in 1774, has little to do with the Sturm und Drang style. So here in this decade we witness one of the most important changes to the Classical Style.


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## Ramako

double post


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## clavichorder

Would you categorize 51 as falling firmly into Sturm und Drang style? I think the cohesive theme development of the 1st mvt. is above the sturm and drang pre requisites, but the sudden switch to G minor from B flat seems very sturm und drang.

Its hard to even call sturm und drang a cohesive genre, I think its often more just a flavor you find in some music of that time. CPE Bach is most certainly doing something like sturm und drang in his string symphonies and the later four with winds, but its so much less sonata form in architecture than almost any Haydn symphony.


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## Ramako

clavichorder said:


> Would you categorize 51 as falling firmly into Sturm und Drang style? I think the cohesive theme development of the 1st mvt. is above the sturm and drang pre requisites, but the sudden switch to G minor from B flat seems very sturm und drang.


I would categorise it as coming from the Sturm und Drang era... It does share a number of similar features to other Sturm und Drang symphonies (e.g. opening tutti) even if it isn't typical. I would have to look at a score to think about thematic development - and preferably not at this time of night - but it is an interesting point which seems valid on a bit of listening. Even so I would probably say in the end it is Sturm und Drang. It is closer than 56 and 57, which I see as being really on the edge.


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## Novelette

I can't choose among the 50's. They're all such wonderful, varied works. Definitely mature Haydn.

I've haven't considered which symphonies could be classed under the appellations of Sturm und Drang, largely because Haydn's growth is generally toward a more sophisticated, less conjunct, melodic and harmonic tendency. It's an interesting question though. I'll have to listen to them all again with this in mind.

As it stands now, my least favorite [and that's a misleading term, as I like all of them very much] are #54 and 56.

Would it be too obnoxious to vote for all but those two? =\

Edit: I'll listen to them again tomorrow before voting.


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## clavichorder

I am really digging the minuet to 52.

Edit: oooh, and this finale is really striking me. Sometimes I do get caught up in 1st mvts. I will re listen to it again, I know it is more interesting than most others, but my hopes always get too high and I can't hear it for what it is.

Edit: now listening to a recording with period instruments(I get too stuck on the Adam Fischer set, which is reliable, diversity is good). This brings it more to life actually.


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## Ramako

Re: symphony 51 I have checked the chronology and it comes straight after 45 and 46, and just before 64 which is followed by 50. 45 and 46 are both thoroughly Sturm und Drang works, but the last ones. 50 can't really be called S&D; though it does share a very similar musical language the effect is completely different. 64 is more S&D, but is clearly moving in new directions from it. Of course the development of style is not linear but Haydn is beginning to test out new possibilities, searching for new ideas, though sometimes he harks back to S&D elements in later symphonies (such as 56 and 57).

Seen in this light, 51 can be seen as the first symphony in which Haydn begins to look beyond the Sturm und Drang style after probably the most extreme ventures in the S&D aesthetic, especially 45.


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## clavichorder

The connection between 45 and 51 has always been apparent to me. I believe they are the highlights of Haydn's Sturm und Drang period. Others may add other works, but I prefer to favor these two in particular.


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde

I looooooooove 52!!!!!!!


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## Brahmsian Colors

My present favorites comprise the majority of this lot >>> 51, 53, 54, 55, 56 and 59.


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## T Son of Ander

53, 59, & 60 are my favorites here, and if I had to pick one, it'd be 60. The Il distratto is a very fine symphony. In that one, Davies is a little too slow in the andante, and Harnoncourt is a little over the top for me. Dorati and Blum are perfect. Not to put too much emphasis on one movement, but to me that movement has to be right.

Blum is probably my favorite 59; they really put the "feuer" in it.

For 53, it depends on the ending. I like the capriccio (alternate A, according to Dorati - he gives four different ones).


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