# the best non classical guitarist composers



## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

Who would you put in a list of the best guitarists as composers? I'm not talking of the quality of the music as a whole, or their technical abilities, but of the musical qualities of their compositions.
And I'm obviously not talking of non classical music... and frankly I think I prefer a lot of non classical tunes to the classical music written for the instrument.
My list of favorites would include:

Valzinho
Garoto
Guinga
Jobim
Django Reinhardt
Baro Ferret
Lo Borges
Frank Zappa
Allan Holdsworth
Jimmy Wyble
George Barnes
Toninho Horta
Dorival Caymmi
Milton Nascimento
Edu Lobo
Robert Fripp
Atahualpa Yupanqui
Djavan
Paul McCartney
Pat Metheny
Joni Mitchell
Nick Drake

Brazil in my opinion dominates in this field (there are probably other musicians who I could add like Helio Delmiro, Egberto Gismonti, Dilermando Reis, Chico Buarque, Marco Pereira etc), but who would you mention?


----------



## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

Peter Green and Mark Knopfler.


----------



## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

The wording if your op seems full of contradictions. You are speaking of non classical. And I'm not sure about the quality you speak of? And are we discussing songwriting or composing. You use the term composer but songwriter names come up immediatley.


----------



## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

starthrower said:


> The wording if your op seems full of contradictions. You are speaking of non classical. And I'm not sure about the quality you speak of? And are we discussing songwriting or composing. You use the term composer but songwriter names come up immediatley.


Is it not the same? Small form compositions are still compositions, and songwriting is just a term that indicates the composition of a song.
I mean, composers like Schubert wrote a lot of songs. Satie, Ellington or Webern wrote mainly miniatures.
The quality I'm speaking of is... the musical quality of a tune. For instance, I'm a fan of Bob Dylan and Van Morrison, who wrote beautiful songs, but I would never consider them great from a musical standpoint. The value of their music is in the arrangement, the attitude, the lyrics, the voice, but even when you take their best songs (for instance Like a rolling stone or Cyprus Avenue) there's absolutely nothing interesting or creative from the perspective of the composition.
While if one takes a tune of (let's say) Guinga one can find a lot more creativity in terms of melody, harmony, modulations, structure.
It's a bit the difference between an architect and an interior decorator. The interior decorator could make a dull place look beautiful with the use of furniture, colors, and decoration, but that doesn't improve the architectural quality of that place.


----------



## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

Art Rock said:


> Peter Green and Mark Knopfler.


I love Peter Green, but I think that his strenghts were definitely more in other aspects of his music than his songwriting abilities.


----------



## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

Albatross, second-best pop/rock instrumental of all time for me. Oh well - brilliant.


----------



## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

Art Rock said:


> Albatross, second-best pop/rock instrumental of all time for me. Oh well - brilliant.


yes, but as I've said in my answer to Starthrower there are different components in the music and I don't think that it's the songwriting that makes it brilliant.


----------



## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

norman bates said:


> I mean, composers like Schubert wrote a lot of songs. Satie, Ellington or Webern wrote mainly miniatures.
> The quality I'm speaking of is... the musical quality of a tune. For instance, I'm a fan of Bob Dylan and Van Morrison, who wrote beautiful songs, but I would never consider them great from a musical standpoint.


But you have Paul McCartney on your list who wasn't an outstanding guitarist or composer of songs. My point is that your list and the shade you are casting on some artists not on your list just represent your personal opinion. You're not the judge or jury.


----------



## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

Bulldog said:


> But you have Paul McCartney on your list who wasn't an outstanding guitarist or composer of songs. My point is that your list and the shade you are casting on some artists not on your list just represent your personal opinion. You're not the judge or jury.


I confess, I'm not a huge Beatles fan, but (besides the fact that he's often considered a good popular composer, admired even by classical composers like Ned Rorem) I think that McCartney wrote some interesting tunes from a musical standpoint. For instance the modulations on Here there and everywhere, or that harmonic ambiguity on the beginning of Michelle.
So even if he's one of those I care less in this list also considering his popularity I thought that his name would help to clarify the topic. It seems it has the opposite effect


----------



## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

Norman - I just think it would be a good move on your part, since you started this thread, to not apply any negativity to artists cited by other members.


----------



## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

Bulldog said:


> Norman - I just think it would be a good move on your part, since you started this thread, to not apply any negativity to artists cited by other members.


why negativity? Peter Green is one of my favorite blues rock guitarists, maybe my favorite british guitarist after Holdsworh. 
But I know it's hard to make a thread like this because especially in non classical music a lot of people tend to consider the quality of a piece as a whole, and I'd just like the thread to be focused on the quality of composing, more than arrangement, sound, production, virtuosity, lyrics, voice, interpretation or other aspects.

And one reason for that is that I'm a bit tired to see again and again comments about the fact that popular music is dumb, not creative, unoriginal and not sophisticated.
Than you could ask: "why only guitarists?" and the answer is that it's for one I love the instrument, and the second reason is that in my experience the guitar is not a composer-friendly tool. A lot of the best composers are musicians who play other instruments... piano, violin, saxophone, even bass for some reason, like Mingus.


----------



## Guest (Jul 20, 2018)

Norman, I've clicked "Like This Post" on a great many of your posts and have frequently expressed my admiration for the expertise that you've displayed and yet... on this one I have to reluctantly join the chorus and add my voice to those who do not seem to understand the concept behind the creation of your thread.

You are asking us _not_ to "consider the quality of a piece as a whole" and that we should subtract the arrangement, sound, production, virtuosity, voice, interpretation _or other aspects_… leaving us with a rather vague and ill-defined element which you refer to as the "quality of composing".

Can you provide us with an example of just exactly what would be left once we subtract the arrangement, sound, production, virtuosity, voice, interpretation _or other aspects_? Judging by the replies you've received from knowledgeable and well-versed forum members I am apparently not alone in my inability to discern just what is being asked of us here.

You've used "Guinga" as a reference for us to use and yet despite having listened to this -






I'm still not certain how he differs from any other guitarist that we might name. The Wikipedia article on him -

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guinga

mentions that - "His compositions are often harmonically and rhythmically complex, while being melodic."

If that is the criteria being used than I would like to submit the following -

Jimi Hendrix

Jeff Beck

Eric Clapton

Jimmy Page

Bill Nelson

Stuart Adamson

Steve Howe

Steve Hackett

Mike Oldfield

and every other guitarist on this list -

https://www.rollingstone.com/music/...t-guitarists-153675/lindsey-buckingham-39147/

Also since when is the guitar not a composer-friendly tool? -

http://www.musicated.com/CGCL/music/CGCL_az.html

And since Paul McCartney can't read or write even a single note of music I would have to say that the "modulations" on "Here, There and Everywhere" or the "harmonic ambiguity" on the beginning of Michelle were arrived at purely by happenstance rather than intention.

There's a really good thread here somewhere but you might need to rethink and clarify the concept.

- Syd


----------



## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

Sydney Nova Scotia said:


> Norman, I've clicked "Like This Post" on a great many of your posts and have frequently expressed my admiration for the expertise that you've displayed and yet... on this one I have to reluctantly join the chorus and add my voice to those who do not seem to understand the concept behind the creation of your thread.
> 
> You are asking us _not_ to "consider the quality of a piece as a whole" and that we should subtract the arrangement, sound, production, virtuosity, voice, interpretation _or other aspects_… leaving us with a rather vague and ill-defined element which you refer to as the "quality of composing".
> 
> Can you provide us with an example of just exactly what would be left once we subtract the arrangement, sound, production, virtuosity, voice, interpretation _or other aspects_?


I have to think what I could post for an example if I have to choose on youtube. But I'll try to explain. When I started playing I remember that I wanted to play the songs I liked, and often I realized that the song that was so great on a certain album didn't sound that great or even terrible when I played it. Not necessarily because of my limitations, but because what was great in the song were other things like those I've mentioned. And on the other hand (and I realized this especially with a lot of songs of the Great american songbook) there were songs that sounded great in a lot of different versions, even in the hands of not so talented musicians. That's because the tune in itself was strong, and not the arrangement, the voice or the lyrics. The line of a melody, with unexpected intervals and twists, and the lenght of the melody itself; the structure with not so obvious forms. The rhyhtm of the voice over the music (for instance like on Berlin's Puttin' on the ritz, or since you've mentioned Jimmy Page, Kashmir, or Hendrix's Manic depression for the same reason). The harmony. The ability to evoke a certain feeling. That's what I'm talking about.
Standards are standards because they are stimulating pieces of music, often avoiding clichès, finding original but memorable solutions, and that's what make those pieces special.



Sydney Nova Scotia said:


> Also since when is the guitar not a composer-friendly tool? -
> 
> http://www.musicated.com/CGCL/music/CGCL_az.html


to me since ever. That's a personal opinion, but for me the best music I know for the classical guitar are not the compositions written for the guitar, but transcriptions from other instruments. And if we look at the history of the instrument in the genre, it's very marginal compared to other instruments, and not just for its low volume, but also in quality. Even reading interviews to some of the great virtuosos of the classical guitar I've often read that even them consider the repertory for the instrument inferior and not at all on the same level of the repertory for the piano or the violin.
I think it has to do with the limitation that the instrument has: the fact that one has basically one had to choose the notes, that the notes are not put on the keyboard in a very logic position, and that one can produce at most six notes at the same time, and normally even less.



Sydney Nova Scotia said:


> And since Paul McCartney can't read or write even a single note of music I would have to say that the "modulations" on "Here, There and Everywhere" or the "harmonic ambiguity" on the beginning of Michelle were arrived at purely by happenstance rather than intention.


I don't think it's important that he doesn't know how to write music, it's important what he does with the music (btw, I remember the classical attempt of McCartney as very cheesy, now that was terrible). 
About Guinga... you should read what a lot of great musicians say about him. Hermeto Pascoal consider him the greatest composer of the last 100 years (personally I'm not that extreme, but to me it means something when a musician so talented 




says something like that about a colleague), and a lot of jazz musicians share a similar opinion. But like it or not, his music show exactly how sophisticated and creative the popular music can get.





This is definitely not the usual three/four chords song.


----------



## Guest (Jul 20, 2018)

norman bates said:


> I have to think what I could post for an example if I have to choose on youtube. But I'll try to explain. When I started playing I remember that I wanted to play the songs I liked, and often I realized that the song that was so great on a certain album didn't sound that great or even terrible when I played it. Not necessarily because of my limitations, but because what was great in the song were other things like those I've mentioned. And on the other hand (and I realized this especially with a lot of songs of the Great american songbook) there were songs that sounded great in a lot of different versions, even in the hands of not so talented musicians. That's because the tune in itself was strong, and not the arrangement, the voice or the lyrics. The line of a melody, with unexpected intervals and twists, and the lenght of the melody itself; the structure with not so obvious forms. The rhyhtm of the voice over the music (for instance like on Berlin's Puttin' on the ritz, or since you've mentioned Jimmy Page, Kashmir, or Hendrix's Manic depression for the same reason). The harmony. The ability to evoke a certain feeling. That's what I'm talking about.
> Standards are standards because they are stimulating pieces of music, often avoiding clichès, finding original but memorable solutions, and that's what make those pieces special.
> 
> to me since ever. That's a personal opinion, but for me the best music I know for the classical guitar are not the compositions written for the guitar, but transcriptions from other instruments. And if we look at the history of the instrument in the genre, it's very marginal compared to other instruments, and not just for its low volume, but also in quality. Even reading interviews to some of the great virtuosos of the classical guitar I've often read that even them consider the repertory for the instrument inferior and not at all on the same level of the repertory for the piano or the violin.
> ...


First-rate post - my compliments - the American songbook analogy was really quite good and I now do have a greater understanding of what you were attempting to find but it would help if you could provide more examples of just what we should be looking for as I've found them to be quite interesting.

- Syd


----------



## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

I don't know, I can put a song for some of the musicians I've mentioned

Valzinho




(this album made by Zeze Gonzaga is one of the most perfect popular albums I've ever heard)

Garoto





Helio Delmiro





Jobim





Django Reinhardt





Baro Ferret





Lo Borges





Zappa





Holdsworth





Jimmy Wyble





Toninho Horta





Milton Nascimento





Edu Lobo





Fripp





Djavan





Joni Mitchell 





Nick Drake





For Metheny I have a good example for what I was saying: In her family. I don't like at all the arrangement of the piece on the album





but I like a lot of versions. This one for guitar





a version for piano





this version made by Wallace Roney





so this is a piece where I think the arrangement isn't great, but the piece in itself has a beautiful and memorable melody and an interesting and sophisticated chord progression.

I could say the same for Minuano, I don't like the arrangement, but the piece is a brilliant piece of songwriting


----------



## les24preludes (May 1, 2018)

Apart from Joni Mitchell you haven't paid much attention to the women. 

For a start, you should be considering Annie Clarke - St Vincent - who is a major singer-songwriter and guitarist. A lot of the female singer-songwriters are pianists (e.g. Sara Bareilles), but there are guitarists too.


----------



## Rach Man (Aug 2, 2016)

One of my favorite guitarists (if not my absolute favorite) is Al Di Meola. He is an amazing guitarist, with an equal-sized ego. But his ego, notwithstanding, he is a brilliant guitarist who writes most of his own music. He is very prolific and I find many of his tunes to be outstanding.

If you are not familiar with Al Di Meola, let me give you a few of his original compositions.

1. Maybe his most famous tune, that he collaborated with another stellar guitarist, the late Paco de Lucia, is Mediterranean Sundance. This is from the Elegant Gypsy CD. This is a great CD all the way through.






2. Elegant Gypsy receives great reviews but I also like the CD Casino maybe as well as Elegant Gypsy. He plays a wonderful piece written by his good friend Chick Corea: Senor Mouse.
But he wrote two excellent tunes on this CD (BTW, the entire CD is great throughout.), Fantasia Suite for Two Guitars and the following title song Casino. I can't believe that this CD is 40 years old!






3. Lastly, I will leave you with a song from his Orange and Blue CD. The song is called: Theme Of The Mother Ship. 





But peruse his tunes on YouTube. There are quite a few to enjoy. He has played and composed on over twenty CDs. Al Di Meola is definitely a guitar composer and musician extraordinaire who mixes jazz with a Latin flare.


----------



## Simon Moon (Oct 10, 2013)

Steve Hackett
Robert Fripp
Allan Holdsworth
Zappa
Steve Hillage
Franco Mussida (from Italian prog band, PFM)

Ralph Towner


----------



## Crawford Glissadevil (Jul 23, 2018)

Robert Fripp
Steve Howe
Jimmy Page
Tony Iommi
Ritchie Blackmore
Les Paul
Wes Montgomery
Zappa


----------



## EddieRUKiddingVarese (Jan 8, 2013)

Art Rock said:


> Albatross, second-best pop/rock instrumental of all time for me. Oh well - brilliant.


Man of the World was not to shabby either, oh and Green Manalishi, Black Magic Woman, the Supernatural and Oh Well to name but a few.


----------



## EddieRUKiddingVarese (Jan 8, 2013)

Even the The kids version of Fleetwood Mac played Peter Greens Green Manalishi, also done by Judas Priest


----------



## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

Nobody has discussed particular musical qualities of any of these guitarists' songs or compositions in this thread. So what is the point of making lists and "I think this guy/woman is great" comments?


----------



## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

starthrower said:


> Nobody has discussed particular musical qualities of any of these guitarists' songs or compositions in this thread. So what is the point of making lists and "I think this guy/woman is great" comments?


well let's take this one, written by Baro Ferret I think around 1951





it's bold and unusual, with a complex harmony (especially for the time). It's sophisticated, very effective with that mysterious and dark atmosphere. And also very original: the only jazz composer I can think who makes something that vaguely reminds of this is Herbie Nichols (and that's a great compliment in itself). 
Sorry, don't ask me for a Schenkerian analysis (not that I see anyone making schenkerian analysis in the classical subforums about their favorite chamber music/lieder/symphonies. But why this is great in short for me? Because it's musically interesting while being beautiful, avoiding being just dry or academic.


----------



## San Antone (Feb 15, 2018)

John Fahey *****


----------



## Guest (Jul 25, 2018)

norman bates said:


> well let's take this one, written by Baro Ferret I think around 1951
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The examples that you've been providing significantly clarify the thread topic - it's interesting to see you fine tune your concept and sharpen its focus - uniformly excellent selections that you've been offering - keep them coming...

- Syd


----------



## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

Sydney Nova Scotia said:


> The examples that you've been providing significantly clarify the thread topic - it's interesting to see you fine tune your concept and sharpen its focus - uniformly excellent selections that you've been offering - keep them coming...
> 
> - Syd


thank you, I just hope to discover some or even better, many gems in this thread.


----------

