# New World Symphony



## Colin M (May 31, 2018)

Too me it starts just outside of New York harbor and never leaves the city. And enters the city very quickly. I think that was Dvorak’s New World. Not America or Native America. Thoughts. Listening to Bernstein’s version right now so maybe tgat colors my focus


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## Rogerx (Apr 27, 2018)

Colin M said:


> Too me it starts just outside of New York harbor and never leaves the city. And enters the city very quickly. I think that was Dvorak's New World. Not America or Native America. Thoughts. Listening to Bernstein's version right now so maybe tgat colors my focus


Never thought of it that way, another good recoding: István Kertész with the L.S.O.


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## Colin M (May 31, 2018)

I will check that out. Thanks Rogex


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## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

I heard every version I could find, and Vaclav Talich's version was something special to me, and also to other reviewers.


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## chill782002 (Jan 12, 2017)

Oswald Kabasta's 1944 recording with the Münchner Philharmoniker is well worth seeking out.


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## Gregm (May 8, 2018)

Phil loves classical said:


> I heard every version I could find, and Vaclav Talich's version was something special to me, and also to other reviewers.


Agreed, Talich's 9th is special -- there seems to be an intimacy there available to every listener. Similarly speaking of Czech, Ancerl is also very poetic. Of course, there is always Fricsay / Berlin PO that is emotionally intense and creative as well!


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## Ras (Oct 6, 2017)

The only one I really like is *Antonio Pappano on Emi* coupled with the cello concerto that I feel similarly about.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

I used to have Ancerl on an old Phillips LP. Ormandy is good as is Mackerass.


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## wkasimer (Jun 5, 2017)

Phil loves classical said:


> I heard every version I could find, and Vaclav Talich's version was something special to me, and also to other reviewers.


I agree. A few days ago, I came across his 1941 recording:









I haven't compared it to his later recording (yet), but it's hard to imagine a better performance.

If I have to have stereo, then Fricsay or Kertesz/Vienna PO.


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

Colin M said:


> Too me it starts just outside of New York harbor and never leaves the city. And enters the city very quickly. I think that was Dvorak's New World. Not America or Native America. Thoughts.


I know that the common subtitle for the Largo movement "Moonlight on the plantation" was not by Dvorak himself, but I do find it difficult to picture this kind of atmosphere in the city that never sleeps.


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## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

I've never thought of the 9th as being particularly 'American' at all. In that regard it reminds me of Mendelssohn's 'Italian' symphony. Mendelssohn may have had in mind certain things he saw and heard when in Italy but they don't run through too much of of the music in an obvious way - I tend to think it was called 'Italian' largely because he just happened to be there when he wrote it. Bernstein, however, referred to the AD's 9th as a 'multinational' work, so perhaps he could discern elements in it which I can't.


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## Brahmsian Colors (Sep 16, 2016)

Sensitive _and_ dynamic---Kertesz and the Vienna Philharmonic
Poetic---Walter/Columbia Symphony


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## brahms4 (May 8, 2017)

I have longed had an affinity for the Reiner/CSO on RCA.Lots of verve and rugged beauty.Great sonics and playing too!Seems like a lot of the Largo movements clock in around 12-13 minutes or so.Two notable exceptions,that are polar opposites,would be Bernstein`s Israel PO at 18 minutes and Paray/DSO at 10 minutes!


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

There are so many accounts that I love, including the Talich and Kertesz. I recently got the Celibidache Minich Phil one and found it special in a Celibidache way! With regard to the OP I too often experience pictures or sequences of pictures in my mind that do not have legitimate or even logical links with the music in question.


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## larold (Jul 20, 2017)

I don't know what "Swing Low Sweet Chariot," the thematic material used in one of the movements, would have to do with New York. It was an African-American song sung by slaves and later people in America and elsewhere. Maybe there were slaves in New York?

I think maybe you spent too much time looking at the Bernstein cover.

My preference is for Ferenc Friscay's version from the 1960's with Berlin Philharmonic.


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## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

chill782002 said:


> Oswald Kabasta's 1944 recording with the Münchner Philharmoniker is well worth seeking out.


It sure is! Everything he recorded just seems so right. No mannerisms, nothing out of line. Just great music making. I wish we had more recordings from him, and it would have been nice to have anything by Schmidt from Kabasta. Too bad about the political situation and his unfortunate end.


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## Merl (Jul 28, 2016)

To me the New World symphony has little to do with America and was more based on celtic and European melodies that Dvorak heard on his extensive travels in Europe. Before he went to America he had visited England on several occasions and for lengthy periods. Once here he would have been bombarded with traditional English, Irish and Scottish melodies (folk songs, hymns, shanties, etc). Even in America he was surrounded by the music and culture of Czech, Irish and other European immigrants and although he studied some examples of American song structures i still hear a lot of Gaelic and Czech folk melodies and I often picture the sea in the Ninth (Dvorak was a keen seafaring traveller). It's all subjective, though.


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## Larkenfield (Jun 5, 2017)

...............


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## Larkenfield (Jun 5, 2017)

chill782002 said:


> Oswald Kabasta's 1944 recording with the Münchner Philharmoniker is well worth seeking out.


Wonderful Oswald Kabasta recording. The Symphony itself, the theme of the Largo is pure African-American in spirit. It's absolutely unmistakable in the spirit of the Negro spiritual, and Dvorak was promoting the idea that Americans had their own musical resources to draw on, called folk music or by any other name. He was right but it was developed more by somebody like Duke Ellington in more of the jazz idiom. But the Symphony overall is not predominately American; it's Czech and European. Much more could be said about Dvorak's relationship with the African Americans in this country on his visit. But to think that the theme of the Largo is part of a European tradition, when it's so unmistakably Afro-American, is ridiculous.








> Dvořák was interested in Native American music and the African-American spirituals he heard in North America. As director of the National Conservatory he encountered an African-American student, Harry T. Burleigh, later a composer himself, who sang traditional spirituals to him and said that Dvořák had absorbed their 'spirit' before writing his own melodies. Dvořák stated:
> 
> "I am convinced that the future music of this country must be founded on what are called Negro melodies. These can be the foundation of a serious and original school of composition, to be developed in the United States. These beautiful and varied themes are the product of the soil. They are the folk songs of America and your composers must turn to them." [unquote]
> 
> Such influences can clearly be heard in the New World Symphony, but of course Dvorak's prophetic and enlightened view was criticized, and the Afro-American influence was misunderstood at the time. Perhaps it still is.


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## Forss (May 12, 2017)

To me, it is this sublime revelation of a ”new world” who ain’t gonna study war no more, far away from the rivalling monarchies of (old) Europe... It is as though he is saying (to Europe): ”Listen, you foes of civilisation: life could be like this, too.”

A kind of ”The Portrait of a Lady” in reverse, so to speak: a message in a bottle from the New World.


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## Jacck (Dec 24, 2017)

Forss said:


> To me, it is this sublime revelation of a "new world" who ain't gonna study war no more, far away from the rivalling monarchies of (old) Europe... It is as though he is saying (to Europe): "Listen, you foes of civilisation: life could be like this, too.


it is fascinating what fairy tales people can project into a piece of music based on their cultural conditioning.


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## Forss (May 12, 2017)

Jacck said:


> it is fascinating what fairy tales people can project into a piece of music based on their cultural conditioning.


As well as lack thereof, apparently.


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## chill782002 (Jan 12, 2017)

mbhaub said:


> It sure is! Everything he recorded just seems so right. No mannerisms, nothing out of line. Just great music making. I wish we had more recordings from him, and it would have been nice to have anything by Schmidt from Kabasta. Too bad about the political situation and his unfortunate end.


A largely forgotten conductor it would seem. I can count the recordings I have of him on the fingers of one hand. As you say, a shame that politics got in the way.


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## Colin M (May 31, 2018)

Good point smiling at that observation : )


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## MarkW (Feb 16, 2015)

It always brings to mind Perth Amboy.


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## Colin M (May 31, 2018)

Larold. Thank you for diminishing my question of a favorite symphony to star gazing at the cover of a CD. You fool. Please understand there were a lot of former slaves and the next generation of thes in New York when Dvorak visited. And their great past of Spirituals eventually evolved into the emotions of Jazz. Good night professor. You are all that is wrong about classical music.


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## Constant Q (Jun 7, 2018)

To me, the New World evokes the Great Plains. Also the North Sea.

Bernstein sounds like New York.


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## Brahmsian Colors (Sep 16, 2016)

mbhaub said:


> It sure is! Everything he[Kabasta]recorded just seems so right. No mannerisms, nothing out of line. Just great music making.


For Bruckner fans: Kabasta recorded an absolutely superb performance (from 1942, in mono, of course) of this conductor's Seventh Symphony with the Munich Philharmonic. It can be found on the Preiser cd label.


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## chill782002 (Jan 12, 2017)

Haydn67 said:


> For Bruckner fans: Kabasta recorded an absolutely superb performance (from 1942, in mono, of course) of this conductor's Seventh Symphony with the Munich Philharmonic. It can be found on the Preiser cd label.


Seconded. A great performance. For Beethoven fans, his 1943 "Eroica" with the same orchestra is also very good.


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## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

The debate goes on about whether or not Dvorak used Afro/American tunes in his New World. He himself said NO! It was all Czech. But it just sounds so different from the other symphonies -- but if you want to hear how insane some people can be about it, you must hear Leopold Stokowski's "explanation" of the tunes. What a bozo! It was in his original Philly mono recording. When he re-recorded it in the 70's, they included the older recording with his analysis. I gave it away unfortunately, or I'd upload it.


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## Larkenfield (Jun 5, 2017)

Dvorak using a literal or traditional African-American melody? Probably not. But it wasn’t necessary if he had absorbed the spirit of the Negro spirituals that had been played for him by Burleigh, which Burleigh said he did, and he could have written an original melody with a similar feel. I doubt if the composer ever suggested otherwise and he’s been misunderstood. But undoubtedly he had heard them because the influence is unmistakable for those familiar with Negro spirituals. That every element within this great symphony is a Czech influence when the soul of it is the soulful beauty of the Largo would render Dvorak’s comments pointless on the potentials of American folk melodies. It was the New World Symphony because it had influences from where it had been composed in or near Spillville, Iowa; and consequently, it’s beyond the pale, IMO, to imagine this Symphony as having no such influences but only Czech and European influences. The Symphony was an example of how some of the Afro-American type melodies could be utilized, and he created a masterpiece.


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## joen_cph (Jan 17, 2010)

mbhaub said:


> The debate goes on about whether or not Dvorak used Afro/American tunes in his New World. *He himself said NO! It was all Czech*. But it just sounds so different from the other symphonies -- but if you want to hear how insane some people can be about it, you must hear Leopold Stokowski's "explanation" of the tunes. What a bozo! It was in his original Philly mono recording. When he re-recorded it in the 70's, they included the older recording with his analysis. I gave it away unfortunately, or I'd upload it.


Hm, not really:
"_I have not actually used any of the [Native American] melodies. I have simply written original themes embodying the peculiarities of the Indian music, and, using these themes as subjects, have developed them with all the resources of modern rhythms, counterpoint, and orchestral colour_.[7]" 
... "In 1893, a newspaper interview quoted Dvořák as saying "I found that the music of the ******* and of the Indians was practically identical[/I]", and that "the music of the two races bore a remarkable similarity to the music of Scotland".[9][10] Most historians agree that Dvořák is referring to the pentatonic scale, which is typical of each of these musical traditions.[11]"
... He wrote that he would not have composed his American pieces as he had, if he had not seen America.[16] It has been said that Dvořák was inspired by the American "wide open spaces" such as prairies he may have seen on his trip to Iowa in the summer of 1893.[17]"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Symphony_No._9_(Dvořák)


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## Colin M (May 31, 2018)

larold said:


> I don't know what "Swing Low Sweet Chariot," the thematic material used in one of the movements, would have to do with New York. It was an African-American song sung by slaves and later people in America and elsewhere. Maybe there were slaves in New York?
> 
> I think maybe you spent too much time looking at the Bernstein cover.
> 
> My preference is for Ferenc Friscay's version from the 1960's with Berlin Philharmonic.


Thanks for sharing that preference I will check it out!

I accept as "fact" there were no former slaves living in New York in the early 1890s. Still laughing about that mind you. I am actively researching whether any black people lived there at that time...
What I do need however is a footnote for the insulation that Dvorak lifted Sweet Chariot for his own purposes.. it was first recorded in 1909 and was probably written by a black person in the middle of the 19th century in the south where despite some controversy we believe black people lived at the time and worked for no pay. I agree he was influenced by the experience of his friend and composer Burleigh but see no evidence he even knew this spiritual.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

The theme from the Largo does not resemble "Swing Low Sweet Chariot" at all. It was an original tune, seemingly influenced by Negro spirituals of the time. It was arranged in 1922 by Dvorak's pupil William Arms Fisher as a totally new spiritual song named "Goin' Home." To this day, many listeners think Dvorak lifted the tune from "Goin' Home" while the opposite is actually the case.


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## Merl (Jul 28, 2016)

Larkenfield said:


> It was the New World Symphony because it had influences from where it had been composed in or near Spillville, Iowa........


I rarely disagree on here but sorry, that's not true. The whole symphony was composed in the first 6 months of 1893, before he went to Iowa. As far as influences there's conflcting evidence from a variety of sources. Burleigh insisted Dvorak was massively influnced by the songs he sung (who wouldn't claim influence on those melodies) whilst Dvorak issued conflicted statements about his influences, varying between saying that he was influenced by the spirit of American negro spirituals to then writing to Oskar Nedbal, who was preparing to conduct the symphony in Berlin: "I am sending you Kretschmar's analysis of the symphony, but leave out that nonsense about my using Indian and American motifs - it is a lie!". It's important to note that Dvorak was being paid a lot of money to teach, conduct and write new music (his annual salary in America was $15,000 - the equivalent of $300,000+ in today's terms - that's some salary for a guy on a 30th of that back in his native country) so like every artist he would also have had to say things to please his employers. 
As I said earlier, all this is subjective. Whatever the influences, be it negro spirituals or the folk music played in the immigrant communities of New York where he lived (Irish, German, Bohemian, etc) Mr Dvorak managed to knock out a symphony so highly regarded its still as popular today as it ever was. Some listeners hear America's endless plains (although Dvorak wouldnt have seen these till he visited Iowa in June 1893). Others hear a Czech suffering from homesickness (and a long way from home). I hear 'travel' in this symphony (Dvorak was obsessed with trains especially but I still hear the sea - he was also greatly enamoured with large boats). Put your own spin on it. As an avid symphony listener I imagine and hear things that the composer often didn't imagine when he wrote a piece but that's my perception. It would be sad if we all had the same experience.
Incidentally it wasnt given the title 'From the New World' until November of 1893, when Dvorak wrote it on the title page for a performance in New York.


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## Colin M (May 31, 2018)

Merl. Thanks for the history lesson and the perspective... it is not suprising that 125 years later his Symphony moves us in the way that it does. And based on our experience it leads us to different visual and sonic memories and imaginings. I really appreciate the members for guiding me to different versions. That is where my ‘true’ perspective will eventually be born.


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## Rmathuln (Mar 21, 2018)

Recordings not yet mention that I return to often

Kondrashin/VPO (Decca)
Horenstein/VSO (Vox)
Levine/LSO (RCA)


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

brahms4 said:


> I have longed had an affinity for the Reiner/CSO on RCA.Lots of verve and rugged beauty.Great sonics and playing too!Seems like a lot of the Largo movements clock in around 12-13 minutes or so.Two notable exceptions,that are polar opposites,would be Bernstein`s Israel PO at 18 minutes and Paray/DSO at 10 minutes!


Reiner/CSO is a great version, along with Toscanini/NBC my 2 favorite versions...


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## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

Has anyone heard this?


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## Colin M (May 31, 2018)

Phil loves classical said:


> I heard every version I could find, and Vaclav Talich's version was something special to me, and also to other reviewers.


Philam listening to this now a 1951 Version with the CSOand get you point that music can be presented in many different ways. Thanks for this Counterpoint. Colin M


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## Guest (Jun 19, 2018)

mbhaub said:


> Has anyone heard this?
> View attachment 104675


Yamashita's transcriptions are _insaaane._ I have heard Jorge Caballero play some of them, but I haven't heard any of these original recordings. They are extremely well done.


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## Guest (Jun 19, 2018)

mbhaub said:


> The debate goes on about whether or not Dvorak used Afro/American tunes in his New World. He himself said NO! It was all Czech. But it just sounds so different from the other symphonies -- but if you want to hear how insane some people can be about it, you must hear Leopold Stokowski's "explanation" of the tunes. What a bozo! It was in his original Philly mono recording. When he re-recorded it in the 70's, they included the older recording with his analysis. I gave it away unfortunately, or I'd upload it.


I am pretty sure Dvorak was tasked with composing a symphony that creates a national American 'voice' based on his experience writing music inspired by, but not copying, the traditional music of his homeland (an oppressed culture in the 19th C anyway, so his popularity served his culture well). Of course, it was impossible for him to create a true national style no matter where he is from, but as far as I can tell, he had developed an ability to understand and implement tendencies of scale, interval and phrase structure from various folk styles as inspiration for his own original music. Finding mutual points of similarity and shared interests in different folk and classical musics gave him an opportunity to blend them together; two languages creating a 'third language'. This applies to his 9th symphony quite well.


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