# Final Round: Che puro ciel: Ferrier, Forrester, Baker



## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

This could be interesting.




Orphée et Eurydice: Act II: Arioso: Che puro ciel · Kathleen Ferrier Kathleen Ferrier Broadcasts & Live Recordings (Remastered)




Orfeo ed Euridice, Act II, Scene 2: 15. Che puro ciel · Maureen Forrester · Sir Charles Mackerras · Vienna State Opera Orchestra Gluck: Orfeo ed Euridice - 1762 Edition with 1774 Paris Revisions




*Gluck - Orfeo ed Euridice / Baker, Speiser, Gale, Leppard, Glyndebourne Opera*


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

For all the beauty of Forrester's singing this for me is a competion between Ferrier and Baker, and it's going to be a difficult one because I love both singers and have something of an emotional attachment to both of them. My mother was an amateur singer, also a true contralto, and Ferrier was her favoute singer, so I've known her voice for many years. In the early part of her career, Baker was often seen as Ferrier's successor, but really they are very different singers and Baker's stage and concert repertoire was much larger than Ferrier's, a lot wider perhaps than audiences outside the UK would be aware. Her stage roles included Purcell (Dido), Monteverdi (Poppea and Penelope), Cavalli (Jove/Diana), Handel (Ariodante, Orlando, Julius Caesar, Eduige), Mozart (Dorabella, Idamante and Vitellia), Berlioz (Cassandre, Didon and Marguerite), Donizetti (Smeton, Maria Stuarda and, on disc, Romeo), Massenet (Charlotte), Strauss (Octavian and the Composer) and Britten (Lucretia, a part written for Ferrier, and Kate in *Owen Wingrove*, a part written for her). Britten also composed the cantata *Phaedra *specifically for her. She even sang the mezzo part in the Verdi *Requiem* (on Solti's second studio recording).

But back to the matter at hand and I love both the performances. If I lean towards Baker, it's because of the added pleasure of seeing her natural, understated acting and because this video captures an emotional stage in her career, her final performances in opera. After this she retired from opera, though she continued singing in recital for a few more years after that. Much as I love Ferrier, Baker is one of those singers who has been with me since I first started collecting records. The famous recording of Elgar's _Sea Pictures, _coupled with Jacqueline Du Pré's no less famous Elgar Cello Concerto was one of the first classical records I owned. It was closely followed by her recording of Berlioz's _Les nuis d'été_ and Ravel's _Shéhérazade. _She is one of my three favourite singers, the only one of the three whom I heard live on quite a few occasions, and I have nearly all of her records. So in gratitude for all those years I am givig this one to Janet. I'm sure Kathleen wouldn't mind.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Tsaraslondon said:


> For all the beauty pf Forrester's singing this for me is a competion between Ferrier and Baker, and it's going to be a difficult one because I love both singers and have something of an emotional attachment to both of them. My mother was an amateur singer, also a true contralto, and Ferrier was her favoute singer, so I've known her voice for any years. In the early part of her career, Baker was often seen as Ferrier's successor, but really they are very different singers and Baker's stage and concert repertoire was much larger than Ferrier's, a lot wider perhaps than audiences outside the UK would be aware. Her stage roles included Purcell (Dido), Monteverdi (Poppea and Penelope), Cavalli (Jove/Diana), Handel (Ariodante, Orlando, Julius Caesar, Eduige), Mozart (Dorabella, Idamante and Vitellia), Berlioz (Cassandre, Didon and Marguerite), Donizetti (Smeton, Maria Stuarda and, on disc, Romeo), Massenet (Charlotte), Strauss (Octavian and the Composer) and Britten (Lucretia, a part written for Ferrier, and Kate in *Owen Wingrove*, a part written for her). Britten also composed the cantata *Phaedra *specifically for her. She even sang the mezzo part in the Verdi *Requiem* (on Solti's second studio recording).
> 
> But back to the matter at hand and I love both the performances. If I lean towards Baker, it's because of the added pleasure of seeing her natural, understated acting and because this video captures an emotional stage in her career, her final performances in opera. After this she retired from opera, though she continued singing in recital for a few more years after that. Much as I love Ferrier, Baker is one of those singers who has been with me since I first started collecting records. The famous recording of Elgar's _Sea Pictures, _coupled with Jacqueline Du Pré's no less famous Elgar Cello Concerto was one of the first classical records I owned. It was closely followed by her recording of Berlioz's _Les nuis d'été_ and Ravel's _Shéhérazade. _She is one of my three favourite singers, the only one of the three whom I heard live on quite a few occasions, and I have nearly all of her records. So in gratitude for all those years I am givig this one to Janet. I'm sure Kathleen wouldn't mind.


I was hoping I'd get something good out of you and this is worthy of your blog. Yes they are both "that good" but are quite different. Ferrier was much more of a true contralto than Baker and only was beginning to develop her range up to A5 which would have opened up more doors for her when her life was cut short at 41, just when Baker was just hitting her stride. Baker because of her bigger range and her great acting talents had much more of a career in opera than Ferrier. I find both performances to be very emotional in different ways but I don't possess your keen insight to be able to express exactly how. I have deep connections to both singers as I had a cassette from this performance by Baker that I wore out 20 years ago but my deep tie to Ferrier at earlier parts of my life won out for me. I LOVE Forrester and she has one of my very favorite voices of all time but I prefer her singing Bach.


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## BBSVK (10 mo ago)

Seattleoperafan said:


> This could be interesting.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


This is difficult. I first eliminated Ferrier to make my life easier. She sings well, but the instrumental accompaniment sucks. I might look up another version of her singing later, if there is any. I imagine, some of those sounds in the music are meant to be larks, but they sound like phone ringtones. Too much remastering ?

How to choose between Forrester and Baker ? I enjoy to have discovered this aria through contest, (thank you @Seattleoperafan ) I listen to it also for "leisure", and alternate between the two. Forrester slightly more often, I like the deeper voice. Baker is better at voice acting, I might be influenced by Tsaraslondon here. If only one version existed, I guess I would want it to be Baker. So I will vote for her and feel bad for Forrester


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

BBSVK said:


> This is difficult. I first eliminated Ferrier to make my life easier. She sings well, but the instrumental accompaniment sucks. I might look up another version of her singing later, if there is any. I imagine, some of those sounds in the music are meant to be larks, but they sound like phone ringtones. Too much remastering ?
> 
> How to choose between Forrester and Baker ? I enjoy to have discovered this aria through contest, (thank you @Seattleoperafan ) I listen to it also for "leisure", and alternate between the two. Forrester slightly more often, I like the deeper voice. Baker is better at voice acting, I might be influenced by Tsaraslondon here. If only one version existed, I guess I would want it to be Baker. So I will vote for her and feel bad for Forrester


T-london would be better at explaining this than me but to my amateur ears the beautiful music of Gluck is so refined that I think it would be hard to create an emotional rendering. The story and words are full of meaning but finding a way to convey it in music is another. The way it is written seems pretty straightforward but all manage to tug at the heartstrings in some way or another. BBSVK you seem much more influenced by the orchestration than me but I am sort of more tuned into the singers the way I am wired. Nina is like you and is really bothered by piano accompaniment to arias specifically.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Seattleoperafan said:


> T-london would be better at explaining this than me but to my amateur ears the beautiful music of Gluck is so refined that I think it would be hard to create an emotional rendering. The story and words are full of meaning but finding a way to convey it in music is another. The way it is written seems pretty straightforward but all manage to tug at the heartstrings in some way or another. BBSVK you seem much more influenced by the orchestration than me but I am sort of more tuned into the singers the way I am wired. Nina is like you and is really bothered by piano accompaniment to arias specifically.


Well for me both Ferrier and Baker sing with wonder and awe at their beautiful surroundings. Gluck creates this marvellous atmosphere of peace and calm and beauty and you really feel them experiencing that serenity. I don't quite get that from the Forrester performance.


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## BBSVK (10 mo ago)

Tsaraslondon said:


> Well for me both Ferrier and Baker sing with wonder and awe at their beautiful surroundings. Gluck creates this marvellous atmosphere of peace and calm and beauty and you really feel them experiencing that serenity. I don't quite get that from the Forrester performance.


Maybe Baker is better at conveying this, but I wouldn't say that Forrester doesn't succeed at all, or downright kills it. I voted against her with a heavy heart indeed. If she gets no votes at all, I might change mine this time.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

BBSVK said:


> Maybe Baker is better at conveying this, but I wouldn't say that Forrester doesn't succeed at all, or downright kills it. I voted against her with a heavy heart indeed. If she gets no votes at all, I might change mine this time.


I didn't say that about Forrester. What I said was that I didn't _quite _get the same degree of wonder from her. We are talking about small degrees of excellence here. Maybe some things can't be expressed, but only felt. Ferrier and Baker both give me that feeling of awe, wonder and serenity that I might get when I experience a moment of transcendant beauty in our natural world. Forrester sings with grave beauty, but, for me anyway, she is more earthbound. I miss the radiance of the other two singers.


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## BBSVK (10 mo ago)

Seattleoperafan said:


> T-london would be better at explaining this than me but to my amateur ears the beautiful music of Gluck is so refined that I think it would be hard to create an emotional rendering. The story and words are full of meaning but finding a way to convey it in music is another. The way it is written seems pretty straightforward but all manage to tug at the heartstrings in some way or another. BBSVK you seem much more influenced by the orchestration than me but I am sort of more tuned into the singers the way I am wired. Nina is like you and is really bothered by piano accompaniment to arias specifically.


It is true, that I am like Nina and find a piano accompaniment very dissatisfying. I decided recently I will just not attend the recitals with piano only anymore (unless I have very compelling reasons to do so).

The other side of it is, that some arias have a very special orchestral accompaniment, which makes them extra beautiful. For instance, the aria of Dalila ("Mon coeur..."). And I think "Che puro ciel" belongs into this group.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

BBSVK said:


> It is true, that I am like Nina and find a piano accompaniment very dissatisfying. I decided recently I will just not attend the recitals with piano only anymore (unless I have very compelling reasons to do so).
> 
> The other side of it is, that some arias have a very special orchestral accompaniment, which makes them extra beautiful. For instance, the aria of Dalila ("Mon coeur..."). And I think "Che puro ciel" belongs into this group.


Those two are amazing! Also the big soprano aria from Simon Boccanegra.


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## BBSVK (10 mo ago)

Seattleoperafan said:


> Those two are amazing! Also the big soprano aria from Simon Boccanegra.


I should get familiar with Simon Boccanegra. I saw it live but only once, cannot recall any melody.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

BBSVK said:


> I should get familiar with Simon Boccanegra. I saw it live but only once, cannot recall any melody.


We did it before you started being very active I will find it for you. Look back here in a bit.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

BBSVK said:


> I should get familiar with Simon Boccanegra. I saw it live but only once, cannot recall any melody.


Final Round:Come in quest´ora bruna. Gheorghiu, Freni... althought I preferred Farrell:


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## BBSVK (10 mo ago)

Seattleoperafan said:


> Final Round:Come in quest´ora bruna. Gheorghiu, Freni... althought I preferred Farrell:


I have checked on that one when you guys played this, but didn't pay attention to the instruments. I will listen to it again, when I have a peaceful time. Thank you !


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## ewilkros (8 mo ago)

BBSVK said:


> I first eliminated Ferrier to make my life easier. She sings well, but the instrumental accompaniment sucks. I might look up another version of her singing later, if there is any.


There is: a recording of a live performance of the whole opera in Amsterdam, 1951, cond. Charles Bruck, which suddenly materialized on EMI's Références label in the late 70's. Ferrier is in splendid voice, and has grown enormously as a musician and interpreter; and it's a relief to be rid of the deadweight Stiedry. EMI/Warner re-released it in several CD formats, most recently (I think) about 10 years ago in a low-cost 3-CD box of all the material EMI had of her--the first 3 or 4 years of her studio recordings, plus the Kindertotenlieder with Bruno Walter, before she got fed up with Legge and left for Decca/London, -- titled "Kathleen Ferrier: The Complete EMI Recordings"--











I think it's out of print now but can still be had cheaply as used--$10 on US Amazon as of this writing.

Or you can search YouTube for _Ferrier Orfeo Amsterdam_ and pull up the complete Orfeo, without the imprimatur from Toxos. And why they should be flogging a Decca studio recording under "Broadcasts and Live Recordings" I can't guess.


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## BBSVK (10 mo ago)

I changed my vote for Forrester as promissed. She deserves to have at least one and I listen to her version most often.


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## Op.123 (Mar 25, 2013)

A beautiful aria. I went for Ferrier here but my preference lies with Grace Bumbry in this opera. Thorborg and Verrett are also excellent.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Op.123 said:


> A beautiful aria. I went for Ferrier here but my preference lies with Grace Bumbry in this opera. Thorborg and Verrett are also excellent.


I just put Bumbry and Verrett in the Che faro senza... contest but Thorberg was not available.


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## Op.123 (Mar 25, 2013)

Seattleoperafan said:


> I just put Bumbry and Verrett in the Che faro senza... contest but Thorberg was not available.


Thats fine, her Orfeo isn't in great sound and it's preferable to have at least decent sound to hear the lovely orchestration


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