# Haydn-Mozart Similarities



## TrazomGangflow (Sep 9, 2011)

I have noticed that Mozart's 25th Symphony (Allegro mvmt.) and Haydn's 45th Symphony (IV movement) have a few similar sounding portions. Is this coincidence, plagiarism, or do I need to see the otolaryngologist? Has anyone else noticed this with this piece or with other pieces between these two Classical Era giants?


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## clavichorder (May 2, 2011)

The most Mozartian sounding Haydn passage I can think of is from Haydn's symphony no. 95 in C Minor, the finale. The finale is actually in C Major, and it has that similar stately sunniness that is to be found in the Jupiter symphony. This isn't very specific, but there is one passage that sounds like something only Mozart would do, I can't recall it at this time and it doesn't show up on youtube...


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## Roi N (Oct 22, 2013)

Haydn and Mozart, at first, sound very much alike. They worked in the same time, influencing each other. But underneath, they are different. Mozart is more elegant - Haydn is more contrapuctual. Mozart crafts melodies - Haydn takes themes and develops them. 
So it's OK if you mess them up at first. Just listen some more and you'll know the differences


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Also, Haydn takes many surprising twists and turns to play up humor. More so than Mozart ever did.
There is a rustic feel to Haydn's music absent in Mozart.


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## neoshredder (Nov 7, 2011)

They are a little similar. Though I think Mozart's style has more pizazz. I like Haydn but his style occasionally gets a little tame. Maybe some prefer that about Haydn.


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## trazom (Apr 13, 2009)

Roi N said:


> Haydn and Mozart, at first, sound very much alike. They worked in the same time, influencing each other. But underneath, they are different. Mozart is more elegant - *Haydn is more contrapuctual*. Mozart crafts melodies - Haydn takes themes and develops them.
> So it's OK if you mess them up at first. Just listen some more and you'll know the differences


It actually isn't, if what you meant was 'contrapuntal'.


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## HaydnBearstheClock (Jul 6, 2013)

clavichorder said:


> The most Mozartian sounding Haydn passage I can think of is from Haydn's symphony no. 95 in C Minor, the finale. The finale is actually in C Major, and it has that similar stately sunniness that is to be found in the Jupiter symphony. This isn't very specific, but there is one passage that sounds like something only Mozart would do, I can't recall it at this time and it doesn't show up on youtube...


Hehe, personally, I think the Adagio from Symphony No. 98 takes the cake. But I think Haydn quoted Mozart on purpose, since the movement is said to be Haydn's Requiem for Mozart.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

hpowders said:


> ...There is a rustic feel to Haydn's music absent in Mozart.


I sometime think that Haydn was a country mouse and Mozart a city mouse.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

KenOC said:


> I sometime think that Haydn was a country mouse and Mozart a city mouse.


The biggest difference is Haydn knew how to play the game and acted humble in the presence of his "betters" and Mozart couldn't.

One can indeed find the rustic connection and humor from Haydn to Beethoven. The latter's piano sonatas are full of such examples. Mozart, not!

The major similarity between Haydn and Mozart is they were both men. I don't hear similarities in their compositions.


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## HaydnBearstheClock (Jul 6, 2013)

hpowders said:


> The biggest difference is Haydn knew how to play the game and acted humble in the presence of his "betters" and Mozart couldn't.
> 
> One can indeed find the rustic connection and humor from Haydn to Beethoven. The latter's piano sonatas are full of such examples. Mozart, not!
> 
> The major similarity between Haydn and Mozart is they were both men. I don't hear similarities in their compositions.


Well, personally, I think you can't help notice similarities since they tended to work with similar, classical-style melodies - but what they did with them and what they emphasized, here they were of course very different. Haydn was generally more rhythm-oriented than Mozart and often emphasized surprise, humour and rhetoric. His music is almost 'interactive' - you can just see Haydn leading you through each part and waiting for your 'response'. Mozart's music doesn't tend to 'interact' with the listener as much but focuses more on melodic beauty. Preference of one over the other is a matter of taste; Mozart's music is more popular than Haydn's because aesthetically it corresponds more to modern popular music, I think. He has larger, and sometimes more dramatic tunes than Haydn. Personally though, I'm more drawn to Haydn's 'interactive' style, it's just so ingenious the way he organizes his movements and adds details and contrasts that always catch one's attention. He could also write some catchy tunes when he wanted to.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

HaydnBearstheClock said:


> Well, personally, I think you can't help notice similarities since they tended to work with similar, classical-style melodies - but what they did with them and what they emphasized, here they were of course very different. Haydn was generally more rhythm-oriented than Mozart and often emphasized surprise, humour and rhetoric. His music is almost 'interactive' - you can just see Haydn leading you through each part and waiting for your 'response'. Mozart's music doesn't tend to 'interact' with the listener as much but focuses more on melodic beauty. Preference of one over the other is a matter of taste; Mozart's music is more popular than Haydn's because aesthetically it corresponds more to modern popular music, I think. He has larger, and sometimes more dramatic tunes than Haydn. Personally though, I'm more drawn to Haydn's 'interactive' style, it's just so ingenious the way he organizes his movements and adds details and contrasts that always catch one's attention. He could also write some catchy tunes when he wanted to.


I'm just glad we have both, but if it's symphonies I want, it will be Haydn.
I'm due for a new set of the London Symphonies. Hope my landlord will understand. I'll pay him double next month!


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

If one wants to get specific, there are dramatic stylistic differences. One that strikes me as particularly significant is in the treatment of sonata form. Mozart, especially in the sonatas and chamber music, tends to populate his sonata-from movements with a profusion of melodic material, including multiple secondary themes. Haydn is relatively parsimonious, sometimes writing sonata-form movements that are nearly monothematic.


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## starry (Jun 2, 2009)

hpowders said:


> The biggest difference is Haydn knew how to play the game and acted humble in the presence of his "betters" and Mozart couldn't.
> 
> One can indeed find the rustic connection and humor from Haydn to Beethoven. The latter's piano sonatas are full of such examples. Mozart, not!
> 
> The major similarity between Haydn and Mozart is they were both men. I don't hear similarities in their compositions.


Haydn had a _way_ better patron than Mozart did. Mozart travelled across Europe to help expand his horizons.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

starry said:


> Haydn had a _way_ better patron than Mozart did. Mozart travelled across Europe to help expand his horizons.


True, but Haydn was no maverick and knew how to play the game. Mozart apparently didn't.


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## starry (Jun 2, 2009)

I don't think art is just about playing a game, it's about taking risks as well. If it was just about a game all music would be insular and formulaic. You need mavericks.


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## HaydnBearstheClock (Jul 6, 2013)

starry said:


> I don't think art is just about playing a game, it's about taking risks as well. If it was just about a game all music would be insular and formulaic. You need mavericks.


Well, I think Haydn took a lot of risks and experimented, he just probably knew how to 'present' the risk to his audience.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

True, but Haydn wasn't one. He knew how to promote himself, but well within the constraints of the time.
Mozart strained those boundaries and Beethoven completely exploded them, God bless him!


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## HaydnBearstheClock (Jul 6, 2013)

Maverick or not, it's the music that matters, and Haydn's is amazing imo.


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## Serge (Mar 25, 2010)

Simple. If it's entertaining, it's Mozart; if it's boring, it's Haydn.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

^^^^^^Ummmmm........no!


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

HaydnBearstheClock said:


> Maverick or not, it's the music that matters, and Haydn's is amazing imo.


I wasn't writing about the music, just the system constraints at the time.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Serge said:


> Simple. If it's entertaining, it's Mozart; if it's boring, it's Haydn.


Another sad case of musical dyslexia... :tiphat:


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## Serge (Mar 25, 2010)

KenOC said:


> Another sad case of musical dyslexia... :tiphat:


Yep, and proud of it, in this case.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Let me guess. It's all about Mussorgsky!!!


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## Serge (Mar 25, 2010)

hpowders said:


> Let me guess. It's all about Mussorgsky!!!


Huh? And where are you leading me with this exactly?


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Serge said:


> Huh? And where are you leading me with this exactly?


Isn't your avatar Mussorgsky?


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## Serge (Mar 25, 2010)

hpowders said:


> Isn't your avatar Mussorgsky?


It is, so what?

Jesus...


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## trazom (Apr 13, 2009)

hpowders said:


> True, but Haydn was no maverick and knew how to play the game. Mozart apparently didn't.


He did when he needed to. The serenades he wrote for royal patrons, all those country dances and those Prussian quartets, specifically written to showcase the king's instrument.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Serge said:


> It is, so what?
> 
> *Jesus..*.


You might think so and you flatter me by calling me that, but the name's actually *hpowders.*


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

trazom said:


> He did when he needed to. The serenades he wrote for royal patrons, all those country dances and those Prussian quartets, specifically written to showcase the king's instrument.


I believe Haydn died a wealthy man and Mozart was always scrounging around for rent money.


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## Serge (Mar 25, 2010)

hpowders said:


> You might think so and you flatter me by calling me that, but the name's actually *hpowders.*





hpowders said:


> I believe Haydn died a wealthy man and Mozart was always scrounging around for rent money.


Is that your idea of being funny?


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## trazom (Apr 13, 2009)

hpowders said:


> I believe Haydn died a wealthy man and Mozart was always scrounging around for rent money.


In 1790-91, Mozart composed some of his best work, was no longer borrowing money, and was repaying his debts. In terms of self-promotion, which is what his piano concerto concerts that he organized was for, he was far more well-known at 35 than Haydn was at the same age.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

trazom said:


> In 1790-91, Mozart composed some of his best work, was no longer borrowing money, and was repaying his debts. In terms of self-promotion, which is what his piano concerto concerts that he organized was for, he was far more well-known at 35 than Haydn was at the same age.


Well yeah. Haydn did his best work as an older man.


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## neoshredder (Nov 7, 2011)

hpowders said:


> Well yeah. Haydn did his best work as an older man.


And Mozart wasn't given that chance to be an older man. My guess is he would've kept improving.


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## HaydnBearstheClock (Jul 6, 2013)

Serge said:


> Simple. If it's entertaining, it's Mozart; if it's boring, it's Haydn.


Haydn and boring? Haydn is never boring, he's the opposite of that - don't know what you've been listening to. It's best to listen carefully and to know the composer before making such off-hand judgments.


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## starry (Jun 2, 2009)

HaydnBearstheClock said:


> Well, I think Haydn took a lot of risks and experimented, he just probably knew how to 'present' the risk to his audience.


Sometimes he experimented in an unusual way like the symphony 49. But in general I think of him as more similar to baroque composers, he attained a style and then found variations within it. Like them he was also able to concentrate and become very prolific in some genres through his consistent style. Mozart's style feels different, he tackled genres more widely and his style in his much shorter life arguably changed more.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

HaydnBearstheClock said:


> Haydn and boring? Haydn is never boring, he's the opposite of that - don't know what you've been listening to. It's best to listen carefully and to know the composer before making such off-hand judgments.


Boring? The Bear and Surprise symphonies? Surely he jests!


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