# Recommend a "potted" Ring cycle RIGHT NOW!



## Admiral (Dec 27, 2014)

Gentlepersons:

3-day weekend taking place, so I'm hoping to do a "potted" (amalgam) Ring from my available sources. 
Here's what I own, what would you recommend? 

Full cycles:

Krauss 1953 on Archipel CD
Keilberth - 1955 on Testament CD
Jankowski - first digital cycle on RCA CD
Furtwangler - 1953 Italia cycle on CD 
Bohm - 1967 cycle on CD and LP

Fragments:
Bruno Walter Walkure Act 1 (Lehmann, Melchoir) on CD
Bruno Walter Walkure Act 2 (Fuchs, Hotter, Melchoir) on CD
Solti Barenboim Siegfried only on CD (circa 1992 live)- 
Solti - full cycle except for Siegfried, on LP and CD
Karajan - Siegfried on LP
Boulez - Gotterdammerung on DVD (recently watched this, so...)
Wotan's Farewell - too many to list

If necessary, I can run to the store to get anything I'm missing, on the proviso that it might be available in an average university town in the great Midwest... which is to say, probably nothing.

If it matters, I'm listening to a high-end system at the end of a horrid week at a new job, after one stiff Manhattan and a large glass of Johnny Walker Blue with more to follow.

I trust that's enough info


----------



## Admiral (Dec 27, 2014)

Hearing no objection, I started with the Solti Rheingold. George London,that's all I need to say


----------



## Don Fatale (Aug 31, 2009)

I love my LP collection of Rings, but given that you mention only 1 DVD I'd recommend going for a DVD set. These video sets are generally not so appreciated as the audio, perhaps because it's too many things to get right.

looks up at the DVD shelf...
Met (Levine, Lepage, Terfel, Kaufmann, Voight) good audio/video quality with the infamous lepage machine.
Bayreuth (Boulez, Chereau, McIntyre, Jerusalem, Gwyneth Jones), my personal favourite, if only the recording quality was up to the above-mentioned Met set.


----------



## Don Fatale (Aug 31, 2009)

Crossed posts with you...

Yep, the Solti Rheingold is an exceptional thing. I'm not sure you really need our help


----------



## Admiral (Dec 27, 2014)

Act 1 of Walkure in the player right now. This Melchoir guy seems to know what he's doing


----------



## Admiral (Dec 27, 2014)

Act 2 of Walkure is from the 1953 Clemens Krauss cycle, Hans Hotter, Roman Vinay a very baritonal Siegmund, and the staggering Astrid Varnay. This mono recording has some BASS


----------



## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Admiral said:


> Act 1 of Walkure in the player right now. This Melchoir guy seems to know what he's doing
> 
> View attachment 61407


The problem with this recording is the sonics. Despite the voices you get little idea of the orchestral writing which is mainly what Wagner is about.


----------



## Triplets (Sep 4, 2014)

Potted? Is there a version where Hans Sachs passes a bong around during the Master Singers competition? Now I understand 
how the Valkyries fly so high.
sounds like a basis for a new Regietheater Production


----------



## Admiral (Dec 27, 2014)

Triplets said:


> Potted? Is there a version where Hans Sachs passes a bong around during the Master Singers competition? Now I understand
> how the Valkyries fly so high.
> sounds like a basis for a new Regietheater Production


Ha!

I was inspired by the original "potted" Ring from 1927-32:


----------



## Pip (Aug 16, 2013)

From all the available commercially recorded Rings and Ring components
I would put together the following Cycle

Das Rheingold. Dohnanyi ( very Underrated)
Die Walküre Leinsdorf (the Most Underrated version with the best cast)
Siegfried Böhm
Götterdämmerung Sawallisch
Just for a change from the normal big-hitters.
All the same, with that cast and his long experience with the work, the Leinsdorf Walküre Deserves to be included in the best ever category.


----------



## Admiral (Dec 27, 2014)

Pip said:


> From all the available commercially recorded Rings and Ring components
> I would put together the following Cycle
> 
> Das Rheingold. Dohnanyi ( very Underrated)
> ...


I'm going to have to purchase the Leinsdorf Walkure.

I'm listening to the 1967 Bohm Walkure now. The sound is stupendous on this.
I'm thinking that I'll need to switch to another set for Wotan's Farewell though.


----------



## Pip (Aug 16, 2013)

Admiral said:


> I'm going to have to purchase the Leinsdorf Walkure.
> 
> I'm listening to the 1967 Bohm Walkure now. The sound is stupendous on this.
> I'm thinking that I'll need to switch to another set for Wotan's Farewell though.


The greatest Wotan's Farewell I know is with George London and Knappertsbusch with the VPO. Recorded by Decca in the late 50s, it is still demonstration quality. The opening of the farewell is astounding, the tempo is so broad and the VPO brass just blow one out of the room and London just soars over the top of it. This bears the same recording stamp as the Solti Rheingold, recorded just after. The Disc is fabulous with the Dutchman's monologue and the two Sachs monologues all conducted by Kna at his most inspired and the VPO in sublime form.
The Leinsdorf version is also great, but the sonic splendour of this Wagner disc is second to none. no Wagner lover should be without it. George London should have sung the Wotan roles in the Karl Böhm Ring at Bayreuth but by 1965, voice in complete tatters, he withdrew from the Bayreuth Ring that year. By 1966 he had retired from singing at age 45!
He was a great singer who did not last as long as many of his colleagues, but when he was good, he was GREAT!


----------



## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Admiral said:


> I'm going to have to purchase the Leinsdorf Walkure.
> 
> I'm listening to the 1967 Bohm Walkure now. The sound is stupendous on this.
> I'm thinking that I'll need to switch to another set for Wotan's Farewell though.


The best Walkure is Karajan's - it is really magical. Wonderful playing by the BPO and a really fascinating cast. 
For me Bohm rushes the whole thing. There is far too little light and shade.


----------



## Admiral (Dec 27, 2014)

Pip said:


> The greatest Wotan's Farewell I know is with George London and Knappertsbusch with the VPO. Recorded by Decca in the late 50s, it is still demonstration quality. The opening of the farewell is astounding, the tempo is so broad and the VPO brass just blow one out of the room and London just soars over the top of it. This bears the same recording stamp as the Solti Rheingold, recorded just after. The Disc is fabulous with the Dutchman's monologue and the two Sachs monologues all conducted by Kna at his most inspired and the VPO in sublime form.
> The Leinsdorf version is also great, but the sonic splendour of this Wagner disc is second to none. no Wagner lover should be without it. George London should have sung the Wotan roles in the Karl Böhm Ring at Bayreuth but by 1965, voice in complete tatters, he withdrew from the Bayreuth Ring that year. By 1966 he had retired from singing at age 45!
> He was a great singer who did not last as long as many of his colleagues, but when he was good, he was GREAT!


George London - what a voice. I came across the recording you mentioned on a youtube video last week and was transfixed. I've only seen it as a fragment on a compilation disc with Knappertsbusch.

I'm assuming you've heard his Brahms 4 Last Songs on Sony? Staggering


----------



## Admiral (Dec 27, 2014)

DavidA said:


> The best Walkure is Karajan's - it is really magical. Wonderful playing by the BPO and a really fascinating cast.
> For me Bohm rushes the whole thing. There is far too little light and shade.


I bought Karajan Walkure and Siegfried on LP but haven't cleaned them yet. They are ex-library so I'm not getting my hopes up.


----------



## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Karajan's Wagner is controversial. As in most of his DG opera recordings, he tends to choose singers who many of us find a bit underpowered for their roles. The emphasis is on the orchestra and what subtle or startling effects he can achieve with it, which enchants some and irritates others. I bought his _Walkure_ back in the LP era and found it distractingly eccentric. The only cast member with a real heroic voice is Vickers as Siegmund. Janowitz, a small-scale, pure-as-a-choirboy Sieglinde pushed to her vocal limit, is no match for him. Crespin is a soft, sympathetic, unheroic Brunnhilde, and Stewart is an intelligent, handsome Wotan who depends on Karajan not to tax his resources. Veasey is a solid Fricka.

When Karajan's Ring was new much was made of his "chamber approach," which apparently means using small voices and holding the orchestra back from drowning them out, saving the volume for some huge orchestral moments. Some of us prefer a more spontaneous, let 'er rip approach with voices made to ride the surge. But hear for yourself.


----------



## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Pip said:


> The greatest Wotan's Farewell I know is with George London and Knappertsbusch with the VPO. Recorded by Decca in the late 50s, it is still demonstration quality. The opening of the farewell is astounding, the tempo is so broad and the VPO brass just blow one out of the room and London just soars over the top of it. This bears the same recording stamp as the Solti Rheingold, recorded just after. The Disc is fabulous with the Dutchman's monologue and the two Sachs monologues all conducted by Kna at his most inspired and the VPO in sublime form.
> The Leinsdorf version is also great, but the sonic splendour of this Wagner disc is second to none. no Wagner lover should be without it. George London should have sung the Wotan roles in the Karl Böhm Ring at Bayreuth but by 1965, voice in complete tatters, he withdrew from the Bayreuth Ring that year. By 1966 he had retired from singing at age 45!
> He was a great singer who did not last as long as many of his colleagues, but when he was good, he was GREAT!


London was a magnificent singer and artist. His singing career was cut short by what was diagnosed as an atrophied nerve resulting in vocal paralysis. What a loss to Wagner! His huge, dark heroic bass-baritone has had no equal since, and he is my favorite Wotan and Amfortas.


----------



## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

Woodduck said:


> Karajan's Wagner is controversial. As in most of his DG opera recordings, he tends to choose singers who many of us find a bit underpowered for their roles. The emphasis is on the orchestra and what subtle or startling effects he can achieve with it, which enchants some and irritates others. I bought his _Walkure_ back in the LP era and found it distractingly eccentric. The only cast member with a real heroic voice is Vickers as Siegmund. Janowitz, a small-scale, pure-as-a-choirboy Sieglinde pushed to her vocal limit, is no match for him. Crespin is a soft, sympathetic, unheroic Brunnhilde, and Stewart is an intelligent, handsome Wotan who depends on Karajan not to tax his resources. Veasey is a solid Fricka.
> 
> When Karajan's Ring was new much was made of his "chamber approach," which apparently means using small voices and holding the orchestra back from drowning them out. Some of us prefer a more spontaneous, let 'er rip approach with voices made to ride the surge. But hear for yourself.


I love the Karajan _Ring_ _because_ of its delicate, finessing virtues.

And I of course like the full-tilt, red-blooded charge of the Keilberth as well.

So the _Ring_, to me, is like a Necker cube-- I can see it both ways.

Which one I put on depends on my mood. . . and of course how much espresso I've had. _;D_


----------



## expat (Mar 17, 2013)

Really fond of the Jankowski these days because of the clarity of the diction. Less bombastic than the Solti. 

What a great thread.


----------



## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

Woodduck said:


> London was a magnificent singer and artist. His singing career was cut short by what was diagnosed as an atrophied nerve resulting in vocal paralysis. What a loss to Wagner! His huge, dark heroic bass-baritone has had no equal since, and he is my favorite Wotan and Amfortas.


I like that Decca "_Die Frist ist um_" he did. Awesome. Absolutely chilling.

-- and I'm not even into male singers that much.


----------



## Albert7 (Nov 16, 2014)

Karajan's Ring is incredible. So is Solti's .

My favorite is Boulez's approach.


----------



## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Woodduck said:


> Karajan's Wagner is controversial. As in most of his DG opera recordings, he tends to choose singers who many of us find a bit underpowered for their roles. The emphasis is on the orchestra and what subtle or startling effects he can achieve with it, which enchants some and irritates others. I bought his _Walkure_ back in the LP era and found it distractingly eccentric. The only cast member with a real heroic voice is Vickers as Siegmund. Janowitz, a small-scale, pure-as-a-choirboy Sieglinde pushed to her vocal limit, is no match for him. Crespin is a soft, sympathetic, unheroic Brunnhilde, and Stewart is an intelligent, handsome Wotan who depends on Karajan not to tax his resources. Veasey is a solid Fricka.
> 
> When Karajan's Ring was new much was made of his "chamber approach," which apparently means using small voices and holding the orchestra back from drowning them out, saving the volume for some huge orchestral moments. Some of us prefer a more spontaneous, let 'er rip approach with voices made to ride the surge. But hear for yourself.


I do like Karajan's Walkure probably for the very reasons you don't. It has the BPO for a start who play magnificently. The voices are so interesting as they tend to be lighter than usual, this being possible due to Karajan's skill as an accompanist in opera. He gives (e.g.) Janowitz the lightest of accompaniments to float on. You could fall in love with this Sieglinde, something I can't say for some of them! Stewart is lighter but I can't see what is wrong with that as he sings splendidly. Crespin certainly makes me love Brunnhilde in a way I could never love Nilsson, while admitting the incredible nature of her voice. And, of course, Vickers is just superb as Siegmund.
Whereas you find Karajan 'distractingly eccentric' I find him 'wonderfully revealing'. But of course, this is a matter of personal taste, as I prefer a gentler, more lyrical approach in Wagner to the 'knock 'em dead' Solti type approach. I will say though at the climatic moments when HvK lets the orchestra loose they are second to none!
Of course, there are many ways of doing this music. I also have Furtwangler's Walkure and find that superbly (albeit differently) conducted even though the singing is a bit uneven.


----------



## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

DavidA said:


> I do like Karajan's Walkure probably for the very reasons you don't. It has the BPO for a start who play magnificently. The voices are so interesting as they tend to be lighter than usual, this being possible due to Karajan's skill as an accompanist in opera. He gives (e.g.) Janowitz the lightest of accompaniments to float on. You could fall in love with this Sieglinde, something I can't say for some of them! Stewart is lighter but I can't see what is wrong with that as he sings splendidly. Crespin certainly makes me love Brunnhilde in a way I could never love Nilsson, while admitting the incredible nature of her voice. And, of course, Vickers is just superb as Siegmund.
> Whereas you find Karajan 'distractingly eccentric' I find him 'wonderfully revealing'. But of course, this is a matter of personal taste, as I prefer a gentler, more lyrical approach in Wagner to the 'knock 'em dead' Solti type approach. I will say though at the climatic moments when HvK lets the orchestra loose they are second to none!
> Of course, there are many ways of doing this music. I also have Furtwangler's Walkure and find that superbly (albeit differently) conducted even though the singing is a bit uneven.


I'm just listening to Karajan's Walker Act 1. How the orchestra responds when Siegmund pulls the sword out of the tree! Wow!


----------



## GioCar (Oct 30, 2013)

Marschallin Blair said:


> I love the Karajan _Ring_ _because_ of its delicate, finessing virtues.
> 
> And I of course like the full-tilt, red-blooded charge of the Keilberth as well.
> 
> ...




For a moment I thought you were speaking of the 1988 Kupfer production in Bayreuth.... the cube at the end of Die Walkure looks exactly the same....


----------



## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

DavidA said:


> I do like Karajan's Walkure probably for the very reasons you don't. It has the BPO for a start who play magnificently. The voices are so interesting as they tend to be lighter than usual, this being possible due to Karajan's skill as an accompanist in opera. He gives (e.g.) Janowitz the lightest of accompaniments to float on. You could fall in love with this Sieglinde, something I can't say for some of them! Stewart is lighter but I can't see what is wrong with that as he sings splendidly. Crespin certainly makes me love Brunnhilde in a way I could never love Nilsson, while admitting the incredible nature of her voice. And, of course, Vickers is just superb as Siegmund.
> Whereas you find Karajan 'distractingly eccentric' I find him 'wonderfully revealing'. But of course, this is a matter of personal taste, as I prefer a gentler, more lyrical approach in Wagner to the 'knock 'em dead' Solti type approach. I will say though at the climatic moments when HvK lets the orchestra loose they are second to none!
> Of course, there are many ways of doing this music. I also have Furtwangler's Walkure and find that superbly (albeit differently) conducted even though the singing is a bit uneven.


I have to admit that Solti's way with Wagner isn't always to my liking either. His _Walkure_ is, to me, the weakest segment of his _Ring_, partly because of what I hear as a failure to sustain the tension in a lot of quieter passages - a frequent failing of his, even more obvious in his _Tristan_, which I heard years ago after becoming familiar with Furtwangler's profound interpretation and found pathetically shallow by comparison. Solti's _Walkure_ cast at least has voices of the right calibre, but Hotter is just too far past his prime, and James King can't hold a candle to Vickers. So, really, I'd as soon have Karajan's despite my reservations. I haven't heard all of Karajan's _Ring_, but I think the other three segments of Solti's deserve their celebrity.

I retain an affection for the Decca (formerly RCA) _Walkure_ under Leinsdorf, with a fine cast including Nilsson, Brouwenstijn, Gorr, Vickers, London and Ward. This for me is a more consistent cast than Solti's or Karajan's, and Leinsdorf's reading is alert, propulsive, and has none of the mannerisms of the other two maestros.


----------



## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Woodduck said:


> I have to admit that Solti's way with Wagner isn't always to my liking either. His _Walkure_ is, to me, the weakest segment of his _Ring_, partly because of what I hear as a failure to sustain the tension in a lot of quieter passages - a frequent failing of his, even more obvious in his _Tristan_, which I heard years ago after becoming familiar with Furtwangler's profound interpretation and found pathetically shallow by comparison. Solti's _Walkure_ cast at least has voices of the right calibre, but Hotter is just too far past his prime, and James King can't hold a candle to Vickers. So, really, I'd as soon have Karajan's despite my reservations. I haven't heard all of Karajan's _Ring_, but I think the other three segments of Solti's deserve their celebrity.
> 
> I retain an affection for the Decca (formerly RCA) _Walkure_ under Leinsdorf, with a fine cast including Nilsson, Brouwenstijn, Gorr, Vickers, London and Ward. This for me is a more consistent cast than Solti's or Karajan's, and Leinsdorf's reading is alert, propulsive, and has none of the mannerisms of the other two maestros.


Karajan's Ring is illuminatingly conducted although the last two operas are under cast in places. His Immolation at the end is unsurpassed I think. Haven't heard Leinsdorf although his conducting was unfavourably compared to Furtwangler when the set came out. The Furtwangler / VPO (which I have) is worth hearing just for the conducting although Modl and Rysenak are not at their best on the day and Franz is not up to Hotter.


----------



## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

DavidA said:


> Karajan's Ring is illuminatingly conducted although the last two operas are under cast in places. His Immolation at the end is unsurpassed I think. Haven't heard Leinsdorf although his conducting was unfavourably compared to Furtwangler when the set came out. The Furtwangler / VPO (which I have) is worth hearing just for the conducting although Modl and Rysenak are not at their best on the day and Franz is not up to Hotter.


I remember that VPO _Walkure_ on vinyl; I didn't find the singing of most of the principals very pleasant (I was used to Leinsdorf's cast) and suspect I'd feel somewhat the same now. Where was Flagstad? She had recently recorded her Isolde with Furtwangler and could certainly still have done a fine Brunnhilde in 1954.

I heard Leinsdorf do _Tristan_ at the Met and found it merely "efficient" (but it was a bad night in general: Nilsson sang marvelously but acted coolly, and Helge Brilioth completely lost his voice and barked and wheezed his way through Act 3). He wasn't a poet on the podium, but his recorded _Walkure_ is fiery and satisfying. I'll take Furtwangler's Wagner over all of the above conductors' (or anyone else's), and only regret that we don't have more complete operas from him in good sound.


----------



## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Woodduck said:


> I remember that VPO _Walkure_ on vinyl; I didn't find the singing of most of the principals very pleasant (I was used to Leinsdorf's cast) and suspect I'd feel somewhat the same now. Where was Flagstad? She had recently recorded her Isolde with Furtwangler and could certainly still have done a fine Brunnhilde in 1954.
> 
> I heard Leinsdorf do _Tristan_ at the Met and found it merely "efficient" (but it was a bad night in general: Nilsson sang marvelously but acted coolly, and Helge Brilioth completely lost his voice and barked and wheezed his way through Act 3). He wasn't a poet on the podium, but his recorded _Walkure_ is fiery and satisfying. I'll take Furtwangler's Wagner over all of the above conductors' (or anyone else's), and only regret that we don't have more complete
> operas from him in good sound.


I'm assuming Flagstad had 'retired' from Brunnhilde by this time. There was a huge noise made by some critics over the top notes in Tristan which were dubbed in for her. That hurt her apparently. Hence when Solti and Knappersbusch recorded Walkure parts she was choosy about what she did. Ie Sieglinde and the parts of Brunnhilde she could manage. According to Culshaw in Ring Resounding. Hence no 1954 Walkure, pity no-one asked Varnay!


----------



## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

DavidA said:


> I'm assuming Flagstad had 'retired' from Brunnhilde by this time. There was a huge noise made by some critics over the top notes in Tristan which were dubbed in for her. That hurt her apparently. Hence when Solti and Knappersbusch recorded Walkure parts she was choosy about what she did. Ie Sieglinde and the parts of Brunnhilde she could manage. According to Culshaw in Ring Resounding. Hence no 1954 Walkure, pity no-one asked Varnay!


Pity such a fuss over a couple of high Cs, as Flagstad's 1952 Isolde is treasurable; most of the voice was still majestically beautiful, more so than Varnay's and certainly Modl's, and she had a legato that neither the other two nor Nilsson could match. The _Walkure_ Brunnhilde has no high Cs except in the "Ho-jo-to-ho," and those don't have to be sustained.

I know Modl must have been superb as an actress, but her vocal production seemed oddly forced and not very agreeable to many, including me. Yes, I think Varnay would have been preferable at that date. Too late now!


----------



## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Woodduck said:


> Pity such a fuss over a couple of high Cs, as Flagstad's 1952 Isolde is treasurable; most of the voice was still majestically beautiful, more so than Varnay's and certainly Modl's, and she had a legato that neither the other two nor Nilsson could match. The _Walkure_ Brunnhilde has no high Cs except in the "Ho-jo-to-ho," and those don't have to be sustained.
> 
> I know Modl must have been superb as an actress, but her vocal production seemed oddly forced and not very agreeable to many, including me. Yes, I think Varnay would have been preferable at that date. Too late now!


Modl did sing an absolutely superb Isolde with Karajan at Bayreuth 1952. She seems in better voice there than the Walkure.


----------



## kineno (Jan 24, 2015)

my favorite Ring video is Kupfer/Bayreuth. Marschallin Blair's cube also made me immediately think of it!


----------

