# What my ear have captured



## Aramis

<suddenly appears dressed in a long coat a'la Bogart and with hat covering his face>

Listen, Johnny, there's something wrong about Scriabin's piano concerto. Two motives sound very familiar to me, and I think that guy stolen one and then someone stolen his motive from the same work. Here are the names: Scriabin, Tchaikovsky, Rachmaninoff, I want you to put this fellas in jail... here are the evidences:











<disappears in dark side street>


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## Weston

Wow - those a really close!

What is it with these Russian composers? Back in February 09 I posted a link showing what I thought was a quote of Beethoven's 7th symphony in Shostakovich's 5th.

http://home.comcast.net/~alienart/Classical music/shostakovich_beethoven quote.mp3

Perhaps it was intentional - an homage?


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## Aramis

I've discovered another trail of disgraceful theft. This time the thief is Richard Strauss and Verdi goes to the victims.

Listen to the combined fragments here:


__
https://soundcloud.com/aramistm%2Famor-mi-alfredooooooooooo


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## Romantic Geek

I'll copy something I posted on another forum:

Well...composers sometimes are kleptos. Inadvertent sometimes...other times, blatantly obvious.

I love Brahms and all. But let's just admit something...Brahms totally stole Grieg in one of his masterpieces (Rhapsody in B Minor).

Brahms - Rhapsody in B Minor Op. 79 No. 1 (composed in 1879)
www.youtube.com/watch?v=VchnVmlYI04#t=0m51s

Grieg - Aase's Death, Peer Gynt Suite No. 1 (composed in 1875, first performed in 1876)
www.youtube.com/watch?v=AB4m885sTeE

Hey...but they're two of my favorite composers, so I'll just let that one slide.

But how is it different than this:

Schubert - Symphony #9 in C ("Great")
www.youtube.com/watch?v=B5I40KbFP8M#t=3m53s

and Ode to Joy. I won't post that because I hope you all know what that is


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## handlebar

Question du jour is:

Are these really stolen melodies and thematic or purely coincidental?
How often do we all hear thematic lines that are so similar? All the time.

Interesting though.

BTW, I really enjoy the Scriabin PC. Especially the Solomon recording.

Jim


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## Aramis

handlebar said:


> All the time.


Not really. I often hear something that reminds me of other work, but still, pieces which I've attached in this thread share something more, this kind of similiarity I find rather rare and enlightning.


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## danae

All this is very interesting, but you also have to keep in mind that in many cases composers make allusions to other people's works, and they do it in the open. These are allusions and not plagiarism. Schumann did that a lot, and Brahms too.

Not to mention all the cases of using a work as a model. Beethoven used Haydn and Mozart as models, Ravel based his string quartet on Debussy's quartet, and Scriabin's first piano preludes op.11 resonate the 24 Chopin preludes.


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## mueske

danae said:


> All this is very interesting, but you also have to keep in mind that in many cases composers make allusions to other people's works, and they do it in the open. These are allusions and not plagiarism. Schumann did that a lot, and Brahms too.
> 
> Not to mention all the cases of using a work as a model. Beethoven used Haydn and Mozart as models, Ravel based his string quartet on Debussy's quartet, and Scriabin's first piano preludes op.11 resonate the 24 Chopin preludes.


This...

It's merely paying homage and respect to their fellow composers. I mean, let's face it, it's not like Scriabin, Rachmaninoff, Brahms or Schubert couldn't write amazingly beautiful melodies themselves, right?

I always like hearing quotes from other composers by the way, I especially like that Schubert symphony!


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## Cauder

Maybe it is like paying respect?  I don't think we could call it stealing. Big deal! 
Inventing some kick *** riffs while playing the guitar you can't predict if something similar appeared two, three years ago on album of famous band if you do not listen to that kind of music. So it can be coincidence.


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## Romantic Geek

I would think that the Brahms is a stolen melody. I would say that Schubert was paying homage to Beethoven. I really don't think the Brahms is purely coincidence though. It's just too similar. It was probably one of those moments where he was like "this melody is great!" and probably didn't realize it was from something already composed. I've done that myself. It's disappointing when you find out that you're amazing compositional idea is really just a rip off.


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## SalieriIsInnocent

I don't blame anybody on using other people's music. Sometimes I will come up with a masterpiece only to realize it was something I heard from somebody else. I thought the riff from Van Halen's On Top of the World was something awesome I had created in high school.


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## colin

I think that if you knowingly use, alter, or enhance a composers original work without legitimate consent, I would classify that as shameful and unlawful. I have had music of mine robbed and distorted in the past and it is deeply hurtful when the criminal tries to convince the general public it is a bona-fide work. any dignified musician or listener would not pay attention to such an infidelious attempt and listen to the genuine version from the original source.


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## mueske

colin said:


> I think that if you knowingly use, alter, or enhance a composers original work without legitimate consent, I would classify that as shameful and unlawful. I have had music of mine robbed and distorted in the past and it is deeply hurtful when the criminal tries to convince the general public it is a bona-fide work. any dignified musician or listener would not pay attention to such an infidelious attempt and listen to the genuine version from the original source.


Using a theme by a composer, quoting them, is hardly what you're describing now.


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## colin

I was describing an instance that happened to me, as I said without legitimate consent


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## Romantic Geek

Well I don't know of Grieg ever meeting Brahms.


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## danae

colin said:


> I was describing an instance that happened to me, as I said without legitimate consent


Legitimate consent is not the issue here. And furthermore, it's a little hard to get it when the person you're quoting is dead.


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## colin

Other peoples happenstances in time are not similar to mine. My previous post was to distinguish between decenct and devious practices. Relating the mood and perception of an era is an entirely different proclamation within writing, as influences are portrayed by available instruments what's happening around you and how our senses percieve music, amongst many things. Other times in my life I have let people use parts of my writing as I did not know what to do with them. The instance I was meaning was a guitar part that I wrote which I took ages to write and I was not consented about the lyrics (which I hated and did not agree with); now that I have my own recording equiptment I am writing the song the way I feel it should be. If anger was prevelant in my writing it was not directed at anybody on this forum, and I apologise; its an underlying bug.


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## alfine

But Grieg did borrow the Schumann Piano concerto as the model for his - dramatic piano solo opening, tune in the wood wind etc...even the key!


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