# Dissonance in baroque and renaissance music.



## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

How much were 16th and 17th century composers trying to avoid dissonance in their compositions, and how much was dissonance an essential part of the music?

I notice that when Leonhardt plays Byrd's Fantasie on ut re mi fa sol la, on the recording he made for Alpha, the tuning minimises dissonances -- contrast Glen Wilson and Davitt Moroney in the same music.

Obviously meantone tuning is more dissonant, but they were trying to find smoother alternatives at the time I think, which presumably means they thought the clashes were ugly and were to be avoided if possible.


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

First go back to some Musica Ficta, then jump forward to music of Rameau.

Dissonance gives blood pressure to the otherwise flaccid blood puddle of scale tones, and music has thrived on the use of pungent dissonance(s) from the late 1100's -- i.e. Musica Ficta -- to the present. Without it, music's life monitor grap goes flat-line (= dead.)

I leave the question of tunings not to those who can really hear the differences (because I and many another can) but to those who love to quibble about them arguing about the supremacy of one system vs. another for the music of this, that, and every other era


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## Taggart (Feb 14, 2013)

Two sorts of dissonance involved - that which resolves and provides interest and that which creates earache - the so-called wolf fifths.

The one person I identify with this is Buxtehude who tended to use and write for mean tone organs. There's an interesting review which discusses some of this.

As with @PetrB, I feel this can be a matter of quibbling.


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## ArtMusic (Jan 5, 2013)

I find that early keyboard music sound "dissonant". These were pieces composed for small keyboard instruments of the time, even well before the developed large 18th century harpsichords.


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## Blake (Nov 6, 2013)

Many pieces I used to call dissonant are starting to sound rather harmonious to me now.


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## tdc (Jan 17, 2011)

I hear plenty of dissonances used in music from Machaut through Bach - most Classical era music (with the exception of some Mozart) sounds a lot less dissonant to me - including Beethoven who for the most part used a fairly conservative level of dissonance not far removed from Haydn. Romantic era music to the present day is all over the map. I think dissonance is a very important part of music and is essentially used like a spice, and it takes a good "cook" to administer the proper amount, and of course individual tastes often vary as to what this "proper amount" is.

I think generally speaking the nicest sounding dissonance is the tritone.


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## Heliogabo (Dec 29, 2014)

Last night I've heard Biber's Battalia and found some intriguing dissonances throughout. I was curious about this subject and discovered this thread. Could someone recommend me more baroque music which uses dissonances?


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Have a listen to Bach's F major duetto from Clavier Uebung 3, in the long central section. Walcha plays it well on his organ recording. 

One way dissonance comes in baroque music is through tuning and registration. I've been listening to a lot of British music recently was completely gobsmacked recently by the way Marianne Levy-Noisette uses dissonances in her Byrd recording on an extraordinary little chamber organ at Breteuil-sur-Iton, it's a CD on the Syrius label. And only slightly less gobsmacked by the dissonances on Timothy Roberts' recording at St Batolph's of voluntaries by John Blow. Much more extreme is Lena Jacobson's recording of early dances on Biss.

In the world of viol, there are some wonderful uses of dissonances too. You may enjoy something I only recently found in fact, a CD by Bjarte Eike called The Image of Melancholy. More generally some of Jonathan Dunford's CDs are stimulating, like the one of of music by Lawes (especially the suite for three Lyra viols, and the one Harp way flat, if I remember right.)

Recorder is a very good instrument for dissonance. There's a tremendous CD by the group Sour Cream called Passion of Reason. And The Little Consort's Ciconia recording is exceptional from the point of view of dissonance too.


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## violadude (May 2, 2011)

Dissonance is very relative. Dissonance not only exists between vertical tones, but among horizontal tones and harmonies. As soon as a composer moves away from the tonic chord, a dissonance is created, in a sense. As soon as a Gregorian Chant goes from a single line sung in unison to a single line sung in parallel fifths, more dissonance is created. A minor second is dissonant compared to a major second, a major second is dissonant compared to a major third, a major third is dissonant compared to a perfect fifth and a perfect fifth is dissonant compared to an octave.

Even if we're speaking in not so extremely relevant terms, it seems strange to me to ask for dissonance in Renaissance and Baroque era works. It's absolutely everywhere. Just listen to any random Baroque era piece and you'll probably get to a point where the composer starts writing chains of suspensions.

Listen to this piece by Vivaldi: 




Practically every measure of the vocal part has either a suspension (a note of the previous harmony being held over into the next harmony) or an appogatura (a note of a harmony anticipating the latter harmony in the former harmony), both of which contain obvious dissonance.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

violadude said:


> Dissonance is very relative. Dissonance not only exists between vertical tones, but among horizontal tones and harmonies. As soon as a composer moves away from the tonic chord, a dissonance is created, in a sense. As soon as a Gregorian Chant goes from a single line sung in unison to a single line sung in parallel fifths, more dissonance is created. A minor second is dissonant compared to a major second, a major second is dissonant compared to a major third, a major third is dissonant compared to a perfect fifth and a perfect fifth is dissonant compared to an octave.
> 
> Even if we're speaking in not so extremely relevant terms, it seems strange to me to ask for dissonance in Renaissance and Baroque era works. It's absolutely everywhere. Just listen to any random Baroque era piece and you'll probably get to a point where the composer starts writing chains of suspensions.
> 
> ...


Meantone tuning brings something to the music which is not inappropriately called dissonance.


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