# Gieseking's Debussy<Legendary>



## paulbest (Apr 18, 2019)

I have just received my 6 cd set of Bavouzet performing complete Debussy. 
,,,1st off, let me say Bavouzet's Ravel is outstanding if not among the very best,,,I did not say <definitive>, yet lets say, overall , he might be my 1st choice of my 7+ Ravel cd collection.

Now after having heard the YT uploads of Bavouzet in Debussy, I finally made the decision to get his complete set.
I have 3 or 4 complete Debussy already, but always looking to add another fine performance to my collection, for <variety> lets say,,as Debussy really has no <definitive> recording available. 
Now on to the subject of Gieseking's performance.

Like many of us here on TC, we all had the Gieseking LP sets, then purchased the cd sets,,But to our disappointment, the cd sound was not much improved over the LP distortion.

I gave my set away, or maybe I never bought it, can't recall how that scenario went off,,,,its been some time,,,now after hearing bavouzet's opening few Preludes Bk1,

The sound quality has no issues. 
His performance is technically perfect, and balanced. 
5 stars of 5, maybe 9.5 stars out of 10.

But at the end of the day,,,now grant it, I have only heard the 1st 3 Preludes bk1, there are 5+ cds to go.

,,,To the point now
What is it about Gieseking's recording, which somehow captures Debussy like no other performaer. 
Yet the EMI sound is totally unacceptable.
It is too harsh. 
I can never forgive the EMI sound engineers on that record. 
They should have placed 2 separate systems, this way, prosperity would have another option to make a record.
I imagine EMI had no idea just what Gieseking's Debussy would eventually become.
<Legendary>
If not definitive.
Yes, definitive. 
Had we Gieseking in DDD, perfect tonal quality, just imagine , ,,what we would have in our experiences of Debussy's complete piano?

As I always say, the finer records of Debussy, are the artists who pay close attention to how <The master> takes the passages, phrases, tempos, pauses, textures. 
The finer Debussy records are the artist who studied and emulated , copy, how The Great Debussy Interpreter has voiced Debussy.

Now , should I purchase the Gieseking set? As I have such fond memories of the nuances and magic of Gieseking;s wizardry. 
This is my Q, which has nagged me some years now. 
Considering the set now is offered on the budget. 
Why not?

Not sure if Bavouzet has taken things his own way, for the most part,,as one can indeed hear influences from The Great Master,,, out of 
Ego
Power trip
maybe he feels, if he takes it <a la Gieseing> he might trip up and make a big mess of the works. 
That is his skills are programmed to play it his way and can only bring in slight hints of Giesekings mastery.

The works are extremely dif just to pull them off with any degree of success, much less trying to bring them up to where Gieseking has them so poetically perfect.
Tech + poerty = success. 
Nearly impossible, 
What I gather after writing all this, is that Gieseking had a unique talent which allowed for both to balance, but always felt the poetics should reign above the technical. 
And this where all others have fallen short in comparison to Gieseking. 
The poetics, colors, nuances. 
No other pianist has challenged Gieseking's mastery, nor ever will.


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## David Phillips (Jun 26, 2017)

There's A Japanese SACD set of Gieseking's Debussy which is pretty good.


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## joen_cph (Jan 17, 2010)

........................................deleted, sorry.


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## flamencosketches (Jan 4, 2019)

Gieseking's legendary recordings are certainly worth having, poor sound or not. Same goes for Schnabel's Beethoven sonatas and Alfred Cortot's recordings of Chopin.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

There are two Debussy « sets » by Gieseking, pre and post war, I’m not confident enough to comment on the quality of either.


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## flamencosketches (Jan 4, 2019)

^I've never heard the pre-war set but that is fascinating. Of course, much changed between the German and French people in that time period. How do a notable German musician's interpretations of a French composer change respectively in such circumstances...?


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

After the war Gieseking had a contract with EMI and he was their main pianist, or one of them, he recorded lots and lots of stuff. He was a gifted sight reader and could go into the studio with the score and knock out a perfectly respectable performance. Not all his postwar stuff is like this, his post war Ravel is rather good, and the Debussy may well be an exception. But as a rule of thumb, the prewar material is more . . . interesting. 

But then you have all the problems of sound.


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## paulbest (Apr 18, 2019)

flamencosketches said:


> Gieseking's legendary recordings are certainly worth having, poor sound or not. Same goes for Schnabel's Beethoven sonatas and Alfred Cortot's recordings of Chopin.


I found the Schnabel 's recordings the most delightful of all others I've heard. His Beethoven is more light, playful and colorful

Now
after having posted the OP,,,I went off to more YT uploads on Gieseking.

Not the earlier 40;s, but the EMI 50's I am referring to.
Ck out his Preludes...
Now I know this is quite a reverse opinion,,,but, let me say,,I hope no one went off and put the Gieseking on order, based on my opinions..??..
Yet it does go cheap, 4 cds, for $11+ ship /Warner label, EMI as well.

so after cking out a few preludes,,,not sure how to say this, as it completely contradicts my OP,,,Gieseking did miss many of the subtilities in the Preludes.
IOW Gieseking is <<dated>>
Yep, the magic I had once known 35 yrs ago,,was now diminished,,,if not completely vanished. 
How could this happen?

Seems I will never find that <perfect> recording,,and am not looking for it. 
Collectively , all my Debussy collection makes up a *definitive*,,that is to say,,,where one might take Debussy this way on certain passages, another choses this way.

My critical ear has completely fallen away when listening to Debussy, 
Why?
As this is what I am , a record critic, by hobby, by habit.

But now, with Debussy, it has no meaning, as it is better to look over any <weakness> and let the music itself be heard,,,
Sure the only way I know that a certain performer has <missed> a certain tempo/pause/texture is via Gieseking's many magical interpretations....
Yet even with Gieseking, his records are not perfect...
I had read this same comment from eithera YT comment or over at amazon review.
And at that time,,I went off to ck what the comment was about, and it was true, there were <issues>

Yet I forgot about this experience,,,or really died not want to believe it,,,as Bavouzet <<missed>> a few of Gieseking's <Legendary> tempos,textures, poetics. 
Gieseking as a background so to speak. 
Yet even the great master has a few critical issues in some of the Preludes....to be continued,,,gotta run...……
IMHO,,Bavouzet is the set to own>>>>>>


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## flamencosketches (Jan 4, 2019)

If neither Gieseking nor Bavouzet is fully doing it for you with the Préludes, it seems that your CD collection is not quite "finis". 

Have you heard Claudio Arrau play the Préludes? Quite good IMO. Another famous recording is Michelangeli, though he doesn't really do it for me in these works (amazing in the Images, though).


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## joen_cph (Jan 17, 2010)

There are days when I am more inclined to the features of a recording than on other days - it may actually vary which one I prefer of them ... also, some pieces in it may be better than others. But then, there are also cases where one just 'outgrows' a version.


I have most of the famous Gieseking/Debussy & will be keeping it, but I tend to play some of the other versions more. Sound quality is generally quite important for me in Debussy. But it's also his playing style.


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## paulbest (Apr 18, 2019)

flamencosketches said:


> If neither Gieseking nor Bavouzet is fully doing it for you with the Préludes, it seems that your CD collection is not quite "finis".
> 
> Have you heard Claudio Arrau play the Préludes? Quite good IMO. Another famous recording is Michelangeli, though he doesn't really do it for me in these works (amazing in the Images, though).


If there is a *best kept secret* in Debussy, I'd like to know.
I have tried all the Debussy available in the records.

I am not dissatisfied with what Debussy I have,,,all my keepers offer some dif shade, color to Debussy, ,,,yet all seems to be filtered through my early memories of Gieseking's nuances...Yet as I say, even he has some passages I am not happy with. yet this is not to discount his other finesse passages. 
Mixed bag. Plus add in the lousey sound, its not a set I plan to order, even at $11 + 4 ship. 
$15 for 4 cds. UNREAL.

with ravel, I can say, of the 8+ on my shelf,,,5 are excellent, the others are keepers. well, actually the great French pianist, Perelmuter, both his late 1950's VOX and later NIMBUS release , I left a amazon comment last Feb,,gave it 5 stars,,the sound is the very worst,,worst than Gieseking's EMI.
If you can believe it,,,and get this,,Numbus says, *This record of Perelmuter might stand as the definitive ravel,,,,for time to come....*, Perhaps so, , it has some interest,,as I gave it 5 stars,,after giving it 3, then, 4,,,then after further consideration, 5 stars. 
But the sound makes it unlistenable 
So why make a <<Legendary>> record,,and make it very poor engineering????
The british are the very worst sound engineers in the world, Their Bose speakers , amps, record equip are all garbage. 
Trust me I know,,i am a audiophile buff.

anyway,
,,carry on.,,,gotta run,...…………………..


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## paulbest (Apr 18, 2019)

joen_cph said:


> There are days when I am more inclined to the features of a recording than on other days - it may actually vary which one I prefer of them ... also, some pieces in it may be better than others. But then, there are also cases where one just 'outgrows' a version.
> 
> I have most of the famous Gieseking/Debussy & will be keeping it, but I tend to play some of the other versions more. Sound quality is generally quite important for me in Debussy. But it's also his playing style.


With Debussy, sound is extremely important, as with ravel....
And yes, I know Arrau, I do not miss those LP;s. Neither interested in Michaelangeli,

Both are dated.

,,,more later...…………..


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

One thing I can say about the pre war Preludes, they are hammerless, though whether that's the playing or the recording is something I can't say.

Anyway, Debussy in Gieseking's hands is a bit like, trapped in the world of Monet waterlilies, which is a bit old fashioned. Surely that way of doing it has been done better since? Michel Beroff maybe?









There's another way to present him: the herald of modernism. And that's no less valid.


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## paulbest (Apr 18, 2019)

I recall Beroff;'s 1970's EMI






Which , honestly, did not win me over..
Then I noted his Denon release,,which you posted...seems it is a Japan release/Columbia, 
I think this may be a later recording.
Which I may have heard snips and again, not convincing.

I understand Beroff was young when he recorded the EMI,,which may have needed more maturity, Still, here is a YT upload, and 
you tell me what you think,,

I was not sure this was a Debussy piece, yet I see it is.

This is a very *unusual* approach to Debussy. = Not valid,....I need to be kind here, as I am under probation.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Here's another one for you to try









The genius of Beroff (Denon better than EMI but EMI very good) is that he has all the colour skills of Gieseking pre -war and a greater sense of structure.


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## paulbest (Apr 18, 2019)

I clicked on the CD YT upload of Sasaki,,,seems I left her cd at minute 17,,as YT has the memory of where one left off last visit.
Thanks for the recommend......
As I say, I am in my finis days of CD *collecting*. 
I've scanned Debussy records past 10++ years, 
I have all I need.
Which is about 3 keepers.
My recent re-purchase of Thibaudet,,,did not go so well. 
I thought the YT vids convinced me well enough to click, at a good price,,,now I am left wondering,,,why did I purchase the set, yet again, after concluding 15 yrs ago, its was off to the resale bin..??
Honestly, I doubt if I venture outside of Bavouzet and Roge (early record only please). Oh and you know , how could I forget Ciccolini, which is really consistently good.

Here just listen to the 1st selection, Preludes 1/Bk1
Tones and colors same as Gieseking, yet in far superior sound.






Now Bavouzet

the playing is excellent, yet note the tonal colors that we hear in Gieseking (if through the distortion), and is clraely heard in Ciccolini, is missing in Bavouzet.
For me, I was brought up with Gieseking's colors/ piano tones,,and so its like a inner critique by which all others are judged. Now as far as Gieseking's tech aspects,,that has too many issues to back for.
I would say bavouzet is superior in the tech side, yet Ciccolini has the far superior colors and piano tones coming through,,which is so important in Debussy.

wait a minute,,,this is not Ciccolini playing Debussy, its Debussy playing Debussy,,,after cking to make sure,,,i began reading the comments,,and I was like whaaaaa, This is NOT Ciccolini????
No , its Debussy playi9ng his works,,,oh brother,,,i'll be back later with Ciccolini....
this is getting deep....


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## paulbest (Apr 18, 2019)

OK, as I recall, 
Ciccolini is much closer to the colors/tones from the piano, as played by Debussy and Gieseking, 
than Bavouzet.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

I use the Preludes Book II as my gauge for Debussy, and the requirement is that they be light, fleet, delicate, not heavy-handed, mistlike. Giesking certainly fits this criteria, and I approve. Yet, I don't consider them "definitive" unless there is some context I'm missing, like some really clumsy earlier recordings.


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

Gieseking's Mozart is quite nice. I'm listening to a disc of him performing solo piano work by Mozart and am in love with his sensitive approach!


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

I tend to love light, romantic and rather inoffensive approaches to all my classical music. That's why I loved Brendel so much, but Gieseking may surpass him!!


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Captainnumber36 said:


> I tend to love light, romantic and rather inoffensive approaches to all my classical music. That's why I loved Brendel so much, but Gieseking may surpass him!!


You should try Gieseking playing late Beethoven, op 110, for EMI. His Brahms too may suite you.


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## joen_cph (Jan 17, 2010)

Should I grab just one Gieseking recording, it would be the Schumann _Davidsbündlertänze_. But it must be said, that it's a work leaving an unusual lot of space for varied interpretations, as seen in many different and interesting recordings.

And there's the historical _Emperor Concerto_ with Rother from wartime Berlin, complete with real, background artillery sounds & dubious circumstances ... it has a lot of urgent drive, but less architectural built-up or -lines, IMO.


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

Mandryka said:


> You should try Gieseking playing late Beethoven, op 110, for EMI. His Brahms too may suite you.


I'm listening to his Moonlight, it's brilliant!


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## paulbest (Apr 18, 2019)

millionrainbows said:


> I use the Preludes Book II as my gauge for Debussy, and the requirement is that they be light, fleet, delicate, not heavy-handed, mistlike. Giesking certainly fits this criteria, and I approve. Yet, I don't consider them "definitive" unless there is some context I'm missing, like some really clumsy earlier recordings.


This is why I like TC
We can all get together and figure out the best way to approach recordings of Debussy., 
Sharing ideas gives us better perspectives and so make better choices.
I agree , the Preludes offers a great way to compare artists. 
Surprised no one mentioned Zimerman/Preludes. 
Uchida made a record of the Etudes,,,did not win me over.

Gieseking has certainly given us the finest in harmonics/colors. Yet he can be a bit sloppy at times. When you add that in with poor sound quality, his records falls short.


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