# Single Round: The Other Medea: Eaglen and Gencer



## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

See notes below


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

I hope some of you enjoy this. This aria is from Medea in Corinto by Mayr, an opera I have listened to extensively. I love love love this aria. It is a jumble of styles from Rossini to Germanic opera. As fabulous as Callas was in the other Medea, I prefer this music over Cherubini. Personal preference.. These are the only two well known sopranos to record this. I tried to find the words but was unsuccessful. If you like this try this very very dramatic aria with chorus for some of the diverse types of music Mayr invents for this opera. This aria has the feel of perhaps Lohengrin in it's dramatic style I find. The opera focuses more on the love aspect of Medea. Mayer ( 1763 to 1845)


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Not knowing this opera at all, and having no text for this aria, I can only guess how aptly the music is being interpreted by these sopranos. For the purpose of comparing them as singers, though, nothing more is needed than to listen to the sounds they make. In all respects Eaglen is superior, but that said I have to admit I've never been a fan. Her voice is powerful and firm both high and low, but rather monochromatic, not inherently sensuous or colorful; she sings without much dynamic shading and never catches my attention with an interesting bit of phrasing or verbal inflection; her coloratura is decent but not stunning. She's best when the music calls for declamatory fierceness, which we can hear very well in the excerpt that Seattleoperafan appends to the competition entries. Eaglen sang both Norma and Isolde with some success, but I suspect she won't be remembered fondly for them by many listeners. The only thing I remember about her in the Met's _Tristan_ is her extreme obesity and consequent immobility onstage. If you know what's good for you you won't buy the DVD.

Eaglen at least sings out confidently and doesn't wobble, which is more than can be said for Leyla Gencer in her contribution to this match-up. Though I've heard little of her in the past by which to judge, I'm a little baffled by what feels like frailty and caution in her work here. It's as if she knows that putting pressure on the voice will send it wobbling out of control, and that does indeed happen occasionally. She must have sung better earlier in her career.

This is attractive music by a Mayr even less performed than the Meyer whose name continues with beer. From an era when operas were produced by the ton, there are surely some worthy candidates for revival. It sounds as if this Medea, like Cherubini's, needs nothing more than a great dramatic soprano. Nothing more than that.

Heh heh.


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## MAS (Apr 15, 2015)

What Woodduck said.

I like the Cherubini much better.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

I'm voting for Eaglen, though in some ways I prefer Gencer, who despite the parlous state of her voice here is a bit more interesting. According to youtube, this is from 1977 when she would have been 49, so it's quite late though her final performance on stage wasn't until 1985.

Eaglen is good, the passagework reasonably well articulated, and her voice is in much better shape, but she doesn't do anything revelatory, but she wins by default.

Hard to tell from one aria, but I'm pretty sure I'd prefer the Cherubini, which is much more dramatic. Isabella Colbran sang the role at its premiere and this was the Medea that Pasta sang, not the Cherubini. I'd be interested to hear what a Callas, a Caballé or a young Sutherland (the Sutherland of _Santo di patria_ from *Attila*) would have made of it.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Sometimes my tastes run divergent to this crowd LOL. Seattle is the petrie dish in which my love of opera has grown and here we LOVE Jane Eaglen. LOVE. Every one I have spoken to feels the same here. The newspaper classical music critics were overflowing with praise of her vocals. We aren't San Francisco or the Met who felt differently. She is like our home team. She is better in a theater and it is memories of that which color my hearing of her. Like many huge voices it never recorded the way it sounded live. The astonishing size and beauty of her voice in an opera house were magic to me. She was one of my greatest operatic obsessions for about a decade. I went to a small party where she was the guest of honor and spoke with her in a group for over an hour. She was in her best voice when she made her N American debut here in Norma at 33. She was not quite so large then. I had despaired of ever hearing the right size voice handle the role of Norma but she sent Seattle into the wildest of reactions. Her Isolde was a huge hit here and seeing her in a theater was much preferable to that disaster of a DVD at the Met. I will scrap any further Youtube selections of her from further contests I've created. I agree with Tsaraslondon on other singers to have recorded this role in a fantasy cast.


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

Seattleoperafan said:


> People love Cherubini's Medea with Callas in it, but it has never really caught on as a regular part of operatic repertoire without Callas breathing life into the role from what I can tell. I agree with Tsaraslondon on other singers to have recorded this role in a fantasy cast.


Let us not forget that the Cherubini opera is actually an opéra-comique called Médée and is in French whereas Callas sang an Italian version of it with someone's recitatives added ... something that is unlikely to be done these days.

P.S. There is no accounting for the tastes of Seattleites, starting with the fact that they even live there


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Becca said:


> Let us not forget that the Cherubini opera is actually an opéra-comique called Médée and is in French whereas Callas sang an Italian version of it with someone's recitatives added ... something that is unlikely to be done these days.
> 
> P.S. There is no accounting for the tastes of Seattleites, starting with the fact that they even live there


I am going to ask that you be banned for abuse:lol::lol::lol: It is gorgeous beyond belief here but is isolated from the rest of the US in many ways. 35 years ago we had lots of gays in the audience at the opera but mostly they died out and now our crowd is mostly grey haired straight couples. I would say we are less than 5 percent gay at most whereas NY and SF gays would be a significant part of the audiences . I think it can make a difference in an audience's taste. Our demographic on this forum is very different from our opera crowd here.
I didn't know that about Medea. It never captured my imagination like it did for some of my friends here who revere it.


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## MAS (Apr 15, 2015)

[B said:


> Seattleoperafan[/B];2232315]
> I didn't know that about Medea. It never captured my imagination like it did for some of my friends here who revere it.


I revere it because it was sung by Callas; had she sung *Medea in Corinto*, I probably would've loved it, too, as she probably would've applied her genius to it and elevated it. She would never had sung the French version (*Medee*) because of its spoken recitatives; she needed music, as she was a musician, not an actress. Whatever one thinks of the Lachner recitatives in the version Callas sang, it works better in my opinion than the spoken ones - unless the singer is also a _sociétaire_ of the Comédie Française and French, the recitatives don't sound idiomatic.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Seattleoperafan said:


> Sometimes my tastes run divergent to this crowd LOL. Seattle is the petrie dish in which my love of opera has grown and here we LOVE Jane Eaglen. LOVE. Every one I have spoken to feels the same here. The newspaper classical music critics were overflowing with praise of her vocals. We aren't San Francisco or the Met who felt differently. She is like our home team. She is better in a theater and it is memories of that which color my hearing of her. Like many huge voices it never recorded the way it sounded live. The astonishing size and beauty of her voice in an opera house were magic to me. She was one of my greatest operatic obsessions for about a decade. I went to a small party where she was the guest of honor and spoke with her in a group for over an hour. She was in her best voice when she made her N American debut here in Norma at 33. She was not quite so large then. I had despaired of ever hearing the right size voice handle the role of Norma but she sent Seattle into the wildest of reactions. Her Isolde was a huge hit here and seeing her in a theater was much preferable to that disaster of a DVD at the Met. I will scrap any further Youtube selections of her from further contests I've created. I agree with Tsaraslondon on other singers to have recorded this role in a fantasy cast.


I do have a sense, listening to Eaglen's recordings, that her voice, impressive though not enchanting on recordings, would have made a greater effect heard in a big hall. This was my experience of Nilsson's, and it's probably common with big, cutting voices that can have something abrasive about them heard close up through a microphone and without a large acoustic space to resonate in.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

Woodduck said:


> This is attractive music by a Mayr even less performed than the Meyer whose name continues with beer.


You know, I was thinking of Charles Mayer (1799-1862)


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

MAS said:


> I revere it because it was sung by Callas; had she sung *Medea in Corinto*, I probably would've loved it, too, as she probably would've applied her genius to it and elevated it. She would never had sung the French version (*Medee*) because of its spoken recitatives; she needed music, as she was a musician, not an actress. Whatever one thinks of the Lachner recitatives in the version Callas sang, it works better in my opinion than the spoken ones - unless the singer is also a _sociétaire_ of the Comédie Française and French, the recitatives don't sound idiomatic.


I like the recitatives too. They were actually composed for a German version by Franz Lachner. The Lachner version was performed in an Italian version by Carlos Zangarini in 1909, but remained unperformed for many years until it was exumed for Callas at the Maggio Musicale Fiorentino in 1953. This Zangarini version is the one Callas sang, though each conductor she worked with prepared their own edition and no two Callas performances are the same, except Dallas and London, both of which were conducted by Nicola Rescigno. Callas's singing of the role in Florence caused such a furore that La Scala ditched plans to stage Scarlatti's *Mitridate Eupatore* with her and replaced it with the Cherubini opera.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Woodduck said:


> I do have a sense, listening to Eaglen's recordings, that her voice, impressive though not enchanting on recordings, would have made a greater effect heard in a big hall. This was my experience of Nilsson's, and it's probably common with big, cutting voices that can have something abrasive about them heard close up through a microphone and without a large acoustic space to resonate in.


Yes. The only big voices that sounded similar on recordings to what I heard live were Ewa Podles, Stephanie Blythe and Jessye Norman, all who had darker voices. I would have loved to have heard Tebaldi live as she has the type of voice that doesn't record well.


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

I find Gencer a dramatic singer who puts lot of feeling into her roles but somehow or other I just think this particular aria needs the cleaner, lighter and smoother touch of Eaglen.


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## MAS (Apr 15, 2015)

nina foresti said:


> I find Gencer a dramatic singer who puts lot of feeling into her roles but somehow or other I just think this particular aria needs the cleaner, lighter and smoother touch of Eaglen.


The younger Gencer would've aced it!


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

MAS said:


> The younger Gencer would've aced it!


I don't know Gencer's work well. Can you suggest something on YouTube?


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Woodduck said:


> I don't know Gencer's work well. Can you suggest something on YouTube?


I have her in a Verdi contest from the 1960's. The Turkish soprano was very versatile and sang both bel canto and verismo roles from what I can tell. Someone else will have to recommend something though.


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## MAS (Apr 15, 2015)

Woodduck said:


> I don't know Gencer's work well. Can you suggest something on YouTube?


Gencer was an all-purpose soprano, second cast for most of her career. Competent is most styles, a decent Verdi singer and able to do justice to almost any role. Her Leonora in *Trovatore* was praised, and she sang *Aida* often. There's film on her on those, as well as concerts. Audio videos include some if her *Norma* and the Donizetti three queens (*Ana Bolena*, *Maria Stuarda* and *Roberto Devereux*) - she has a loyal following. But some of her film is a bit too late and you get the tremulous voice, sketchy coloratura and glottal stops.

Here's a film of *Trovatore*'s _D'amor sull'alli rosee_ - if you don't like this, look no further ! . The picture is out if synch, so you may want to listen first.






Oh, I think she was in *Dialogues of the Carmelites* at La Scala, too.


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## MAS (Apr 15, 2015)

@Woodduck

An example of Gencer in a Verismo role (or Puccini)


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

MAS said:


> Gencer was an all-purpose soprano, second cast for most of her career. Competent is most styles, a decent Verdi singer and able to do justice to almost any role. Her Leonora in *Trovatore* was praised, and she sang *Aida* often. There's film on her on those, as well as concerts. Audio videos include some if her *Norma* and the Donizetti three queens (*Ana Bolena*, *Maria Stuarda* and *Roberto Devereux*) - she has a loyal following. But some of her film is a bit too late and you get the tremulous voice, sketchy coloratura and glottal stops.
> 
> Here's a film of *Trovatore*'s _D'amor sull'alli rosee_ - if you don't like this, look no further ! . The picture is out if synch, so you may want to listen first.
> 
> ...


Great assessment. I always felt she would be a great all purpose house soprano in a second tier town like Stuttgart or Lyons.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

MAS said:


> Gencer was an all-purpose soprano, second cast for most of her career. Competent is most styles, a decent Verdi singer and able to do justice to almost any role. Her Leonora in *Trovatore* was praised, and she sang *Aida* often. There's film on her on those, as well as concerts. Audio videos include some if her *Norma* and the Donizetti three queens (*Ana Bolena*, *Maria Stuarda* and *Roberto Devereux*) - she has a loyal following. But some of her film is a bit too late and you get the tremulous voice, sketchy coloratura and glottal stops.
> 
> Here's a film of *Trovatore*'s _D'amor sull'alli rosee_ - if you don't like this, look no further ! . The picture is out if synch, so you may want to listen first.
> 
> ...


She's intense. Quite a performer. Rather busy. A little wild vocally too. The sound doesn't touch me, but I can see why she has a following. I can also see why her voice didn't hold up.

I like her more in the Puccini.


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## Shaafee Shameem (Aug 4, 2021)

Woodduck said:


> I don't know Gencer's work well. Can you suggest something on YouTube?


Her best work is in the 1950s. In the 1960s, the middle voice developed a muddiness, and her singing was plagued with glottal stops, chokes and register breaks etc. 'I due Foscari' from 1957 conducted by Serafin and 'Anna Bolena' from 1958 conducted by Gavazzeni show her at her best.


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

Woodduck said:


> She's intense. Quite a performer. Rather busy. A little wild vocally too. The sound doesn't touch me, but I can see why she has a following. I can also see why her voice didn't hold up.
> 
> I like her more in the Puccini.


Gencer's (pronounced "Gensher") biggest problem was that Callas was around at the same time so she got the rebuff from Bing.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

nina foresti said:


> Gencer's (pronounced "Gensher") biggest problem was that Callas was around at the same time so she got the rebuff from Bing.


I hardly think Callas was the problem with Bing. Callas only sang for two seasons at the Met (1956 and 1958) and a final couple of Toscas in 1965. Anyway, there's a lot more to opera than the Met. Gencer had a considerable career in Europe, particularly in Italy and sang nineteen roles at La Scala between 1957 and 1983. Callas ended her permanent relationship with La Scala in 1958, though she did return in 1960 for *Poliuto* and then finally in 1961 to 1962 for *Medea*.


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## MAS (Apr 15, 2015)

Tsaraslondon said:


> I hardly think Callas was the problem with Bing. Callas only sang for two seasons at the Met (1956 and 1958) and a final couple of Toscas in 1965. Anyway, there's a lot more to opera than the Met. Gencer had a considerable career in Europe, particularly in Italy and sang nineteen roles at La Scala between 1957 and 1983. Callas ended her permanent relationship with La Scala in 1958, though she did return in 1960 for *Poliuto* and then finally in 1961 to 1962 for *Medea*.


To Americans, singing at the Metropolitan Opera represents the pinnacle of achievement for opera singers and their public, just as La Scala was to Italians or, I suppose, Covent Garden to the English.

The Metropolitan is the center of the opera world in the U.S. due to the Saturday broadcasts and the performances in HD in regional cinemas. We in San Francisco have enjoyed decades of first class opera here, albeit in shorter seasons, so we did not "need" the Metropolitan as much.

Nevertheless, a singer had to sing at the Metropolitan Opera to be well known in the U.S. and to be publicized - TIME magazine gave Callas the cover story and the legend was born.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

MAS said:


> To Americans, singing at the Metropolitan Opera represents the pinnacle of achievement for opera singers and their public, just as La Scala was to Italians or, I suppose, Covent Garden to the English.
> 
> The Metropolitan is the center of the opera world in the U.S. due to the Saturday broadcasts and the performances in HD in regional cinemas. We in San Francisco have enjoyed decades of first class opera here, albeit in shorter seasons, so we did not "need" the Metropolitan as much.
> 
> Nevertheless, a singer had to sing at the Metropolitan Opera to be well known in the U.S. and to be publicized - TIME magazine gave Callas the cover story and the legend was born.


Well, yes, Covent Garden is London's main house and most singers need to sing there to make their mark, but not all. Covent Garden rarely sought the services of Janet Baker and most of her operatic performances were with Scottish Opera and the English National Opera. That didn't prevent her from being probaby the most famous British singer here in the UK, though it was recordings and concert work that made her name abroad. Covent Garden could be a bit sniffy about homegrown talent and Valerie Masterson sang extensively with English National Opera before landing any major roles at Covent Garden. Gwyneth Jones made more of a name for herself in Vienna and at Bayreuth.

I know the Met is the US's major opera house and careers are made there. Had Bing not been in charge, Callas may well have sung there more often and maybe sooner. He saw her when she was still large and doing the most incredible things vocally and never really grasped her genius. It's really his fault the Met never saw her at her peak, whilst Chicago did.


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## ScottK (Dec 23, 2021)

This piece sounds like you all the way, great inclusion!

Eaglen's was/is a strange career to me. She burst out pretty big and I heard her Isolde and was not that taken with it. Then she sang the most girlish Brunnhilde and I loved it. I got her CD and found it mixed at best. And none of that points at the kind of singing I hear here in which she sounds focused - not always, to me , the case - with a very attractive middle and easy movement and at times a very nice tone on top. Am I right that her career just kind of withered away or did she stay more important than I'm aware of?

I've never been a fan of Gencer's voice and here the top is geting a little shaky. She'd have to be more Medea to compete with Eaglen for my vote.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

ScottK said:


> This piece sounds like you all the way, great inclusion!
> 
> Eaglen's was/is a strange career to me. She burst out pretty big and I heard her Isolde and was not that taken with it. Then she sang the most girlish Brunnhilde and I loved it. I got her CD and found it mixed at best. And none of that points at the kind of singing I hear here in which she sounds focused - not always, to me , the case - with a very attractive middle and easy movement and at times a very nice tone on top. Am I right that her career just kind of withered away or did she stay more important than I'm aware of?
> 
> I've never been a fan of Gencer's voice and here the top is geting a little shaky. She'd have to be more Medea to compete with Eaglen for my vote.


She was great out off the gate and for at least 10 years. I was so grateful in the 21st century to hear such a big, beautiful voice sing Norma, Bruinhilde, Isolde, and Ariadne. Her voice could flood a theatre with sound!!!!!!!!!!!! I think her weight caused her problems. You can breath easily at 30 weighing 300 pounds but one ages and most likely she started having trouble supporting the voice and trying to breath with a body twice the size of normal people. I think the same thing happened to the great Rita Hunter. Jane also got heavier over the years. She had a good 15 year career before her voice went south which she can look back on proudly . I don't think it was bad technique. It worked out for the best as she was hired at the New England Conservatory of Music, which is second only to Juliard, and apparently she LOVES teaching and they seem to like her there. Many singers are not so lucky to find a fulfilling second career, much less at such a great school. Jane had a great teacher and he likely helped her become a great teacher. Jane was really really smart and a great communicator when you talked to her so this plays into her new job. She has been there now 9 years!!!!!https://necmusic.edu/faculty/jane-eaglen


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