# Callas and Wagner



## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Now don't hate me but I am opening this up for discussion. I am positive that it must have been amazing to hear Callas sing Wagner back in the day if you were live in the audience. I had a different experience though listening to her first studio recording that included the Liebestod. She was certainly vocally up to the challenge of the music and of course it was done with great artistry, but while I enjoy her immensely in a lot of the Italian repertoire I just don't think she has the right sound for the Wagnerian line. Forgive me for saying this, but to me Wagner's music shows up her very unique sound in a less than flattering light. I think in an opera house her overarching embodiment of the character would likely bowl you over but to me in a recording I felt there were other singers I'd rather hear sing Wagner, whereas in many of her other roles she was the one many would compare others to. What do you think? I did listen to the Parsifal years ago but the reality is there is not much to go on of her in this repertoire, although she was famous for it back in the day.


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

Great topic. I find it very difficult to judge Callas' Wagner recordings and her suitability for his roles and music. One thing that is clear is that the Italian language doesn't suit it, (just as Verdi doesn't really work in German, as Woodduck mentions in another thread). Add to that the Italian approach to Wagner in the early 50s and it is hard to imagine what Callas would have sounded like had she been in the Furtwaengler Tristan or Walkure.

That said, I think her portrayal of Kundry is superb and I would only put her behind Martha Modl and Waltraud Meier in what is a difficult role to do justice to. I also think she would have made a great Brunhilde. Had she moved into mezzo rep and been happy to learn and sing German, then she could have made a fine Venus and Ortrud. The main Wagner roles I don't think she would have suited are Elizabeth, Elsa and Sieglinde where a brighter, yet full tone is required. 

N.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

I have a number of observations to make. Your comments motivated me to put on the 1950 RAI _Parsifal_ again after letting it rest on the shelf for a couple of years. Not to stray too far off track, but I'm immediately struck by how creditable a performance it is. Vittorio Gui was one of the very accomplished opera conductors in Italy at that time, and he leads a cast of singers who, by and large, exhibit a vocal solidity such as we rarely hear nowadays. Wagner sounds odd in Italian, but having just this morning listened to some Verdi sung in German - an experience at least equally strange - I guess I'm conditioned to be less resistant to opera in translation than I've been on other days. In any case, the "Callas _Parsifal_" is worth an occasional visit, and we're lucky to have it.

Callas may not be the only thing worth hearing on that recording, but she is definitely the main attraction for us now. Without erasing memories of some of the best singers doing Kundry in the original language, she gives us a well-conceived interpretation and the vocal security we'd expect from her in her prime. Her strong chest voice is just what the part requires, her peculiar timbre is no drawback in projecting the ambiguities of Kundry's nature, and she negotiates the hysterical, high-lying phrases at the end of Act 2 with ease. Really, the only part of her presentation that fails to work for me is the pair of screams Wagner asks for as Klingsor wakes her from sleep. They're rather cartoonish and unintentionally funny, but then Callas isn't the only singer whose non-singing vocalism fails to match her musical expressiveness.

Coming to the "Liebestod" Callas recorded as part of her first studio session, I understand your reaction and share it to some extent. Wagner, in his later works, doesn't flatter singers; he rarely gives them the sort of long, balanced, self-contained melodies that they can adapt to their own vocal characteristics and interpretive conceptions. Put another way, Wagner, with his orchestra carrying much of the musical burden, doesn't usually offer juicy tunes for singers to luxuriate in and enchant us with, and this leaves the sheer sound of their voices to make its effect unaided by the kinds of expressive opportunities they would find in more expansively tuneful writing. I suppose it's a matter of individual perception, but for me this makes the physical qualities of voices more critical to my enjoyment in Wagner (and in much post-Wagnerian opera) than in most Italian opera.

Applying these general observations to Callas, I'll mention that yesterday I listened once again to the final scene of _Norma_ (posted here by Tsaraslondon) in the splendid 1955 Rome performance with Callas and Del Monaco, and my reaction to hearing Callas was what it frequently is when I return to her after an interval. I had an immediate feeling of revulsion, disconcerted at what struck me as a very strange and unbeautiful sound. This didn't surprise me; I've been listening to Callas for over 50 years, and I knew that all I needed to do was keep listening and that soon my perception of her voice would change with no effort on my part. Sure enough, within ten minutes or so that initial feeling of dislpleasure had vanished and I was completely captive to an artistry that had somehow managed to absorb even the vocal strangeness into itself and transform it into the deepest and most devastating expression of human feeling.

I suspect, as you suggest, that hearing Callas do Isolde in the opera house would have been a potent experience (she commented later in life that of her Wagner roles Isolde was the one that still interested her, though her ability to do it vocal justice was certainly long past). Her recorded "Liebestod" is unique in its style and feeling, more personal and affectionate than most and with an Italianate quality that isn't simply a question of the translation but is certainly enhanced by it. I agree with you in not finding hers to be an ideal "Wagner sound," and, as I've argued, Wagner doesn't give singers the kinds of melodies which will enable a vocal artist like Callas to transcend and transform the impression her timbre makes on its own (Wagner may have said that he was thinking of Bellini while working on _Tristan,_ but we're just going to have to trust him on that). I do enjoy Callas's "Liebestod" for its unique qualities, even while Leider, Flagstad and Nilsson are still echoing in my brain.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

First a little historical background. Back in those days in Italy, Wagner was always performed in Italian. The only records we have of Callas's Wagner are Isolde's _Liebestod_, which figured in her first recorded recital for Cetra, and which she also sang in concert in Athens in 1957, and her Kundry which was recorded from a radio concert in 1950. Isolde was the second role she sang after going to Italy in 1947, in Venice under Serafin. He had asked her if she knew the role and she lied and said that she did, sight singing the role when he auditioned her. Nevertheless she got the part and he coached her for her first Isoldes. Her next Wagner role, again under Serafin, was Brünnhilde in *Die Waküre*, also in Venice and again under Serafin. This was in 1949, the famous occasion on which she also deputised for an ailing Margaretha Carosio as Elvira in *I Puritani*, learning the role in a few days whilst still singing her Brünnhides. She sang Brünnhilde again in Palermo the following month and added Kundry to her repertoire that month too. However, after singing Elvira her career began to take another direction. She sang Isolde once more in Rome in 1950, then Kundry again in concert the same year, but after that never sang another Wagner role.

Incidentally, Tebaldi also sang Wagner in her early career, also in Italian, but her roles were Elisabeth and Elsa.

Callas's Kundry, as The Conte, states above is much more than a curiosity and she is a superb Kundry. I wish we also had recordings of her Isolde and Brünnhilde, but I am pleased to have her _Liebestod_ It is perhaps a little unconventional, but the voice at that time was very beautiful and she makes a warmly feminine and vulnerable Isolde. I love how easily she articulates the little turns towards the end of the aria, her legato, as usual, impeccable, with the final note floating out over the postlude without a hint of wobble.

Unlike many here, I am not a Wagner nut and most of the singers I love (apart from Jon Vickers) were not prominent in the Wagnerian repertoire. Maybe that's why I really like Callas's take on the _Liebestod_.

Here is that 1949 recording, just so we know what we are discussing here.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

^^^We seem to have been busy with our remarks at the same time. Thanks for providing that little account of Callas's brief career in Wagner. Now wouldn't it be nice if someone had smuggled a tape recorder into the opera house during _Tristan_, and there were a recording in someone's attic or basement?


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Woodduck said:


> ^^^We seen to have been busy with our remarks at the same time. Thanks for providing that little account of Callas's brief career in Wagner. Now wouldn't it be nice if someone had smuggled a tape recorder into the opera house during _Tristan_, and there were a recording in someone's attic or basement?


Yes indeed. Your perception, especially when it comes to matters Wagnerian, is always much appreciated.

PS The Norma scene I posted was the 1955 La Scala performance, not the Rome one from the same year. They are easy to mix up, but Votto was the conductor in Milan, Serafin in Rome.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Tsaraslondon said:


> Yes indeed. Your perception, especially when it comes to matters Wagnerian, is always much appreciated.
> 
> PS The Norma scene I posted was the 1955 La Scala performance, not the Rome one from the same year. They are easy to mix up, but Votto was the conductor in Milan, Serafin in Rome.


Ah, yes. I actually have the La Scala on CD. I just forgot the venue. Probably the best _Norma_ we have, I think we agree.


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

Did she sing any Wagner opera other than _Parsifal_?


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

SanAntone said:


> Did she sing any Wagner opera other than _Parsifal_?


See Tsaraslondon's post #4.


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

Woodduck said:


> See Tsaraslondon's post #4.


I really meant complete recording. But thanks, I should have read his post before posting.


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

Woodduck said:


> ^^^We seem to have been busy with our remarks at the same time. Thanks for providing that little account of Callas's brief career in Wagner. Now wouldn't it be nice if someone had smuggled a tape recorder into the opera house during _Tristan_, and there were a recording in someone's attic or basement?


Well, there was a rumour that a tape of the Genoa Tristan was owned by the Tristan in the performance, Max Lorenz, but his family didn't want it released as it would be known as the 'Callas Tristan' rather than the 'Lorenz Tristan'. I don't know if there is any truth in it.

N.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Woodduck said:


> I have a number of observations to make. Your comments motivated me to put on the 1950 RAI _Parsifal_ again after letting it rest on the shelf for a couple of years. Not to stray too far off track, but I'm immediately struck by how creditable a performance it is. Vittorio Gui was one of the very accomplished opera conductors in Italy at that time, and he leads a cast of singers who, by and large, exhibit a vocal solidity such as we rarely hear nowadays. Wagner sounds odd in Italian, but having just this morning listened to some Verdi sung in German - an experience at least equally strange - I guess I'm conditioned to be less resistant to opera in translation than I've been on other days. In any case, the "Callas _Parsifal_" is worth an occasional visit, and we're lucky to have it.
> 
> Callas may not be the only thing worth hearing on that recording, but she is definitely the main attraction for us now. Without erasing memories of some of the best singers doing Kundry in the original language, she gives us a well-conceived interpretation and the vocal security we'd expect from her in her prime. Her strong chest voice is just what the part requires, her peculiar timbre is no drawback in projecting the ambiguities of Kundry's nature, and she negotiates the hysterical, high-lying phrases at the end of Act 2 with ease. Really, the only part of her presentation that fails to work for me is the pair of screams Wagner asks for as Klingsor wakes her from sleep. They're rather cartoonish and unintentionally funny, but then Callas isn't the only singer whose non-singing vocalism fails to match her musical expressiveness.
> 
> ...


I bow before you. Thank you for this.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

The Conte said:


> Well, there was a rumour that a tape of the Genoa Tristan was owned by the Tristan in the performance, Max Lorenz, but his family didn't want it released as it would be known as the 'Callas Tristan' rather than the 'Lorenz Tristan'. I don't know if there is any truth in it.
> 
> N.


I had no idea that she sang with Lorenz. 1948 was rather late in the day for him. Interesting question: did he sing in Italian, as did the rest of the cast (I presume), or was it one of those mixed-language performances that sometimes occurred in the good old days?


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## The Wolf (Apr 28, 2017)

Woodduck said:


> I had no idea that she sang with Lorenz. 1948 was rather late in the day for him. Interesting question: did he sing in Italian, as did the rest of the cast (I presume), or was it one of those mixed-language performances that sometimes occurred in the good old days?


From Frank Hamilton performances list...



> 5/12/48: Tristano e Isotta: Genova, Teatro Grattacielo: maestro direttore Tullio Serafin; regìa di Augusto Cardi
> 
> Isolde Maria Callas
> Tristan Max Lorenz
> ...


Almost all Wagner performances in that time in Italy, was in italian. For the cast, maybe all the opera was sung in italian.


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## The Wolf (Apr 28, 2017)

The Conte said:


> Well, there was a rumour that a tape of the Genoa Tristan was owned by the Tristan in the performance, Max Lorenz, but his family didn't want it released as it would be known as the 'Callas Tristan' rather than the 'Lorenz Tristan'. I don't know if there is any truth in it.
> 
> N.


Callas wrote to Lorenz in the 1960s asking for a copy, but never got a reply. There were even Lorenz students who claim to have heard it on occasion, but it is likely that it was lost. only the current Lorenz heirs would know for sure (I don't know who they are).

I doubt that it exists, because such a novelty would be very lucrative and would have come to light a long time ago.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

The Wolf said:


> From Frank Hamilton performances list...
> 
> Almost all Wagner performances in that time in Italy, was in italian. For the cast, maybe all the opera was sung in italian.


I'm still wondering whether Lorenz learned his role in Italian in order to sing it in Italy. I would think that would be unusual for a German heldentenor to do, though certainly possible. It wasn't unheard of in those days to have bilingual performances when a lead singer's own language was the language of the opera being performed, and I've read that before the mid-20th century opera performances were often given with the arias in the language of the libretto and recitatives in the language of the audience. Of course that wouldn't be possible in Wagner.


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## Concertantek364 (Mar 13, 2021)

Woodduck said:


> I'm still wondering whether Lorenz learned his role in Italian in order to sing it in Italy. I would think that would be unusual for a German heldentenor to do, though certainly possible. It wasn't unheard of in those days to have bilingual performances when a lead singer's own language was the language of the opera being performed, and I've read that before the mid-20th century opera performances were often given with the arias in the language of the libretto and recitatives in the language of the audience. Of course that wouldn't be possible in Wagner.


In her autobiography _Playing My Part_, Frida Leider recalled that she had to learn Italian in order to fulfil an invited engagement at La Scala to sing the Walküre Brünnhilde in early 1927. She was later invited back to the house to sing the Siegfried and Götterdammerung Brünnhilde as well. She said that relearning the role in Italian was a enormous task for her, yet...



> I soon discovered that it was extremely beneficial to my technique. In using the open Italian vowels, my throat expanded without effort, my breath flowed more freely. I succeeded in carrying this over to my German performances, by placing the German phrases with an Italian vocal style


Given the fact that Leider had to learn Italian to sing Wagner in Italy, we certainly can't rule out the possibility that Lorenz might have learnt Italian as well for his Italian engagements.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Great, illuminating posts friends. My sister sang in a German opera house in the 70's and 80's and always sang in German. Her first role in Europe was as Violetta at age 24 in Switzerland and one wonders if they did a Swiss German translation LOL. Wagner sounds very very different sung in Italian. You can hear more the Bel Canto influence on his music. Nilsson said she wished she could have sung in Swedish in her International career as it was easier to act in your own language. That may be why I think her recital in Swedish was perhaps her best recording.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Incidentally I don't think Callas ever sang a role in German. When she sang Leonore in *Fidelio* with the Athens Opera, she sang the role in Greek. However there are examples of her singing snatches of _Abscheulicher!_ ate her Masterclasses at the Juilliard and her legato line is completely unimpeded by the language, just as it was when she sang in French.


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

The Wolf said:


> Callas wrote to Lorenz in the 1960s asking for a copy, but never got a reply. There were even Lorenz students who claim to have heard it on occasion, but it is likely that it was lost. only the current Lorenz heirs would know for sure (I don't know who they are).
> 
> I doubt that it exists, because such a novelty would be very lucrative and would have come to light a long time ago.


Unless they are unaware they even have it! It would likely be a can or large box of magnetic tape, possibly languishing in a box in an attic. We wish!:lol:


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Concertantek364 said:


> In her autobiography _Playing My Part_, Frida Leider recalled that she had to learn Italian in order to fulfil an invited engagement at La Scala to sing the Walküre Brünnhilde in early 1927. She was later invited back to the house to sing the Siegfried and Götterdammerung Brünnhilde as well. She said that relearning the role in Italian was a enormous task for her, yet...
> 
> Given the fact that Leider had to learn Italian to sing Wagner in Italy, we certainly can't rule out the possibility that Lorenz might have learnt Italian as well for his Italian engagements.


Thanks for that reminder. I read Leider's autobiography years ago but had forgotten that detail. I do know that she was clear about her belief in what she called the "Italian school" of singing, as Wagner himself was. Evidently that was once a real thing.


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## ALT (Mar 1, 2021)

As so often with Callas and all too typically, finding yet another thread dedicated to her, this time about her forays into Wagner, is of little worth and consequence and only serves to perpetuate tedious narratives centered on her, ad nauseam.


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

ALT said:


> As so often with Callas and all too typically, finding yet another thread dedicated to her, this time about her forays into Wagner, is of little worth and consequence and only serves to perpetuate tedious narratives centered on her, ad nauseam.


Interesting post. Not a fan then? I'm at a loss as to why you would even join this thread.


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

Barbebleu said:


> Unless they are unaware they even have it! It would likely be a can or large box of magnetic tape, possibly languishing in a box in an attic. We wish!:lol:


I would imagine that it is now lost in any case (had it existed) due to the tapes having deteriorated due to their age.

(Unless, of course, they were transferred to a different tape or medium.)

It seems incredible that there could be more undiscovered Callas material out there such a long time after such recordings would have been made.

N.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

ALT said:


> As so often with Callas and all too typically, finding yet another thread dedicated to her, this time about her forays into Wagner, is *of little worth and consequence* and only serves to perpetuate *tedious narratives* centered on her, *ad nauseam*.


"Worth" and "consequence" to whom? What "tedious narratives"?

I note that you've been on the forum for only seven months. I've been here for over seven years, and among the large number of topics raised for discussion the specific question of Callas in Wagner has not, to my recollection, been raised until now. It's obviously a limited topic, and not one likely to generate long discussion or to come up again soon. However, it appears that several people here, including me, have enjoyed the discussion.

I'm sure that none of us have any wish to infect anyone with tedium or nausea, but if we've been careless there are preventative measures you can take. Masks are not known to be effective against Callas narratives, there is no vaccine currently available, and livestock dewormer is unproven and possibly dangerous, but social distancing is almost 100% effective.


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## MAS (Apr 15, 2015)

Woodduck said:


> "Worth" and "consequence" to whom? What "tedious narratives"?
> 
> I note that you've been on the forum for only seven months. I've been here for over seven years, and among the large number of topics raised for discussion the specific question of Callas in Wagner has not, to my recollection, been raised until now. It's obviously a limited topic, and not one likely to generate long discussion or to come up again soon. However, it appears that several people here, including me, have enjoyed the discussion.
> 
> I'm sure that none of us have any wish to infect anyone with tedium or nausea, but if we've been careless there are preventative measures you can take. Masks are not known to be effective against Callas narratives, there is no vaccine currently available, and livestock dewormer is unproven and possibly dangerous, but social distancing is almost 100% effective.


Bravo Woodduck! ALT has, not un-subtly, taken potshots at Callas and her devotees in many posts since he joined TC. Perhaps he doesn't know his preferred diva, Cheryl Studer, admired Maria Callas.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

MAS said:


> Bravo Woodduck! ALT has, not un-subtly, taken potshots at Callas and her devotees in many posts since he joined TC. Perhaps he doesn't know *his preferred diva, Cheryl Studer, admired Maria Callas.*


As do sensible divas everywhere.


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