# John Zorn



## Morimur

Drawing on his experience in a variety of genres including jazz, rock, hardcore punk, classical, klezmer, film, cartoon, popular and improvised music, John Zorn has created an influential body of work that defies academic categories. A native of New York City, he has been a central figure in the downtown scene since 1975, incorporating a wide range of musicians in various compositional formats. He learned alchemical synthesis from Harry Smith, structural ontology with Richard Foreman, how to make art out of garbage with Jack Smith, cathartic expression at Sluggs and hermetic intuition from Joseph Cornell. Early inspirations include American innovators Ives, Varese, Cage, Carter and Partch, the European tradition of Berg, Stravinsky, Boulez and Kagel, soundtrack composers Herrmann, Morricone and Stalling as well as avant-garde theater, film, art and literature.

_-Hips Road Edition_

*What's your opinion on the work of John Zorn? Is his music important or a mere curiosity and therefore disposable? Is he blessed with genius or merely an active imagination?*


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## Whistler Fred

I mostly know Zorn's music from the two Kronos Quartet recordings that include his music, although I've heard some of his other works. What I've heard doesn't do it for me, being too much of an incoherent hodge-podge of conflicting styles without a connecting thread to bring the styles together.

But I may give the above album a listen to see if anything on it would change my mind.


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## science

I've only heard one album of Zorn's - _Naked City_ - and I guess it would be considered jazzish or something. It's certainly wild fun.

What classical recordings would you recommend.


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## Alypius

I have a large number of Zorn's records, especially from his Masada series and his Book of Angels series. Much of his work gets classified as "jazz". His Masada group is certainly jazz and is self-consciously modeled on Ornette Coleman's early quartet (Dave Douglas, trumpet; Zorn, alto sax; Greg Cohen, bass; Joey Baron, drums). There are dozen or so studio records of theirs, but the best, in my view, are a pair of live performances, _Live in Sevilla_ (Tzadik, 2000) and _Live at the Tonic_ (Tzadik, 2001)

















But many of the other groups he puts together or enlists are not really jazz in terms of their sound or harmonic styles or choice of instruments, though all of them are exceptional improvisers. Zorn is part-composer, part-entrepreneur, part-gatherer-of-talent. I understand that many of his compositions are simply one-page sketches (that draw on klezmer styles / modes / themes), and he enlists groups to use their improvisational skills to fill out and reworks his sketches. One of his most interesting groups is Bar Kokhba, which weaves together a string trio with surf-style guitar and Latin percussion. That sounds weird but it really works. The group includes: Marc Ribot (guitar), Erik Friedlander (cello), Mark Feldman (violin), Greg Cohen (bass), Cyro Baptista (percussion), Joey Baron (drums). Their first record, _Circle Maker_ (Tzadik, 1999), is a masterpiece; check out their live performance, _50th Birthday Celebration, Vol. 11_ (Tzadik, 2005); and especially _Lucifer: Book of Angels, Vol. 10_ (Tzadik, 2008).










Here's a live performance of theirs from 1999:






And here's one track from _Lucifer_ (and it looks like much of the record is available on YouTube):






A third group of his is called The Dreamers. I'll post something on them later.


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## BurningDesire

Zorn isn't one of my favorite composers, mostly because the kinds of aesthetics he tends to explore in his work aren't ones that jive with me as much as say... impressionism, or grunge rock, or Russian Romanticism. But I have deep admiration and respect for him as a composer and musician, he's amazing and he's really the kind of composer I want to be, one who composes a grand variety of works and is incredibly skilled in writing totally different idioms.


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## ptr

I had just collected my thoughts on Zorn, but Alypius very eloquently beat me to it!

It is the boundaryless attitude that Zorn display that makes me a fan, I don't like everything, but I find most of what I have heard interesting and sometimes quite giving in spurring new thoughts in myself!

















The Hermetic Organ 1 & 2









Alhambra Love Songs (2009)

/ptr


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## ptr

some more fave's:









The Gnostic Preludes (2012)









With Thurston Moore - @ (2013)









Naked City (1990)

/ptr


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## PetrB

Lope de Aguirre said:


> *What's your opinion on the work of John Zorn? Is his music important or a mere curiosity and therefore disposable? Is he blessed with genius or merely an active imagination?*


*a...curiosity...disposable. ...blessed with...an active imagination.* 
... _an entertainer_ and, _meh._

on another plane, I have general praise for _entertainers_; much good enough entertainment is only interesting for the duration of one exposure


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## science

Thanks for the recommendations, my knowledgeable co-forumites. I can handle a little entertainment now and then my own self.


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## Crudblud

I respect Zorn, but I wish he would stop and think more often, I can't count how many times I've picked up a new release and "oh boy it's _this_ one again!" He has some great ideas, but then he has them again, and again, and again. It gets to be a little like he's taking out the trash once a week.


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## Whistler Fred

I gave the first few tracks of “Mount Analogue” a listen and came away surprised. It was an edgier but still expressive type of jazz, but there was none of the vehement shifting of styles that I found disconcerting in “Forbidden Fruits” or “Cat o’ Nine Tales” written for Kronos. Obviously, there is more to this composer then I thought.

Even so, this type of jazz still isn’t my thing, taste-wise, but at least this recording makes more musical sense to me.


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## hreichgott

I really loved seeing Cobra live. It is more of a game than a piece of music, but the music generated always has a natural structure. I'd love to play in it sometime


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## starthrower

I have a few albums including Naked City, Electric Masada, and Book Of Angels 20, which is a Pat Metheny does Zorn album. I wouldn't call any of the pieces full fledged or developed compositions. Mostly jumping off points for improvisation. And some of the material on the Metheny album is quite repetitive. I prefer Pat playing his own compositions because in my opinion, he's a far superior composer to Zorn.

Zorn can play some great alto sax when he wants to, but much of the time he likes to squeal and sputter. It gets old pretty fast. I don't know if he's a genius, but he's certainly very ambitious. But ultimately, his music doesn't really capture my imagination or keep me interested for very long.


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## Hmmbug

Not as impressed with Zorn as most of you. I've heard the Gnostic Preludes as well as a couple of other loose pieces and honestly, his music to me just seems like a bunch of uninspired notes, warmed-over electronica/New Age if you will. I have yet to hear a work of his that I have been at all impressed by.

He does, however have some redeeming qualities, namely as a comedian. His "skill" as an "improviser" on the alto sax is on great display in this collaboration between him and Yoko Ono:




This cracked me up so hard the first time I heard it.


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## starthrower

Somebody stuff a sock in her mouth, please!


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## Morimur

starthrower said:


> Somebody stuff a sock in her mouth, please!


Don't worry, she's quite old.


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## Manxfeeder

Hmmbug said:


> He does, however have some redeeming qualities, namely as a comedian. His "skill" as an "improviser" on the alto sax is on great display in this collaboration between him and Yoko Ono:


I'm probably in the minority here, but he's getting some interesting sounds/multiphonics here. These are coming from a saxophone, not a synthesizer. But Yoko is ridiculous.


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## Morimur

Hmmbug said:


> Not as impressed with Zorn as most of you. I've heard the Gnostic Preludes as well as a couple of other loose pieces and honestly, his music to me just seems like a bunch of uninspired notes, warmed-over electronica/New Age if you will. I have yet to hear a work of his that I have been at all impressed by.
> 
> He does, however have some redeeming qualities, namely as a comedian. His "skill" as an "improviser" on the alto sax is on great display in this collaboration between him and Yoko Ono:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This cracked me up so hard the first time I heard it.


I don't get it. Is it supposed to be edgy and avant-garde? Doesn't qualify as either.


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## Hmmbug

I agree. It just comes across as a ridiculous joke, not at all avant-garde.


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## Manxfeeder

Lope de Aguirre said:


> I don't get it. Is it supposed to be edgy and avant-garde? Doesn't qualify as either.


I can just share what I'm getting out of it. As far as the sax, he's exploring sounds, not notes. He does seem to progress from one set of sounds to another, created only by the pressure on his reed and by various alternate fingerings, key pops, and finger runs. It doesn't sound repetitious to me. And he doesn't go beyond his inspiration/ideas or the audience's tolerance level.

I think Yoko is there so that the audience will think it's high art. But as a performer, she isn't matching what he is doing. A duet with a throat singer would make more sense.


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## starthrower

Manxfeeder said:


> I'm probably in the minority here, but he's getting some interesting sounds/multiphonics here. These are coming from a saxophone, not a synthesizer. But Yoko is ridiculous.


If this was done in the vaudeville days, Yoko would have been hooked off the stage, and then we could listen to what Zorn is doing. Instead, a polite audience sits there like fools, and allows themselves to be subjected to this lameness.


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## 38157

Zorn came to my university last November for the contemporary music festival. I listened to his stuff for a while before and loved it, so it was a nice surprise. All in one day, I saw a concert of some of his chamber music (incl. "Walpurgisnacht", which I think is a nice little string quartet), a string quaret w soprano and a solo concert he performed at midnight (this particular performance was actually free) - "The Hermetic Organ" (I was talking to my friend who was working on the doors and saw Zorn go for a **** about 10 minutes before the doors opened - then later I was sat on the front row, about two seats down from him. He was unfortunate enough to choose to sit in A1 - the squeakiest seat in the building).


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## Xenakiboy

What do the people here (who are fans of contempary/post-modernist classical) think of Zorn's CLASSICAL music? (not jazz or avant-garde rock/metal). 

I can't say I've been able to fully appreciate it but I find something fascinating and immersive about his inclusion of themes from mysticism and even 'satanism'. The packaging on his classical CDs is also something I'd like to see a lot more with the genre in general.


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## Xenakiboy

The jazz community seems to have embraced his jazz music but let's embrace his excellent classical, check out these pieces (I'll add links later):

Rituals - an ensemble work for soprano, flute, (various other instruments), wind machine, chimes, organ, spade and dirt. there is clear Varese and Stockhausen influence here!

Cat O nine Tails - a polystylistic string quartet that appears to be made up of quotes (think Berio) and frequently shifts directions every few seconds 

Christabel - one of my personal favourites. An alien piece for wind quintet? (I think). 

The Alchemist - Another string quartet that is in the vein of Schoenberg or Webern. Some very nice combination of notes.

Contes De Fees - A highly virtuostic violin concerto, reminiscent of Boulez.

Kol Nidre - Another string quartet in D minor, more minimalist in style, with a drone on the Cello and 1st violin throughout the first half.

Chimeras - a Schoenbergian work inspired by Pierrot Lunaire (with the same group of instruments). 

Memento Mori - A more minimalist work for string quartet, in vein of Feldman.

The Aristos - work for Strings and piano

Occam's Razor - A string trio, very nice too!


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