# Do You Like Alma Deutscher's Violin Concerto in G Minor (2017)?



## ArtMusic

Probably the most popular violin concerto composed in the last five years. This sia wonderful piece of contemporary new music. I love it.

What do you think? Please sit back and enjoy this new music.


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## joen_cph

.....................deleted, sorry.


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## DaveM

ArtMusic said:


> Probably the most popular violin concerto composed in the last five years. This sia wonderful piece of contemporary new music. I love it.
> 
> What do you think? Please sit back and enjoy this new music.


Very enjoyable. It's interesting to hear a young composer channeling the first half of the 19th century in the 1st movement and then moving on to the second half in the 2nd movement.

IMO, this is a more inventive work than the Piano Concerto. The real story about Alma Deutscher may not be her composing or her piano playing, but rather her violin playing. Her tone and technical ability are amazing for her age. She has mastered the upper E-string and dual string playing. If nothing else (and I'm not diminishing her other talents), she could be a budding major violin artist!


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## Portamento

If you're going to be writing music with heavy tonal implications in the 21st century—and many composers do—it should be in a context different from that of the 19th century. See Aho, MacMillan, Pärt, Pickard, Rautavaara, Yoshimatsu, etc.

Of course, this is a very young composer and we'll have to see where she goes from here.


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## DaveM

Portamento said:


> If you're going to be writing music with heavy tonal implications in the 21st century-and many composers do-*it should be in a context different from that of the 19th century*. See Aho, MacMillan, Pärt, Pickard, Rautavaara, Yoshimatsu, etc.


I agree when it comes to the earlier 19th century, but IMO, there's nothing wrong with tonal music that sounds closer to the later 19th century. So far, I'm underwhelmed by 21st century tonal classical music.


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## Portamento

DaveM said:


> So far, I'm underwhelmed by 21st century tonal classical music.


A lot of it is very good.


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## Bwv 1080

It’s not as bad as it sounds

(Sorry couldn’t resist)

She is obviously gifted, but music like this will never be more than the sum of its influences


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## Red Terror

*Meh.*

*Meh.**Meh.**Meh.**Meh.**Meh.**Meh.*



ArtMusic said:


> Probably the most popular violin concerto composed in the last five years. This sia wonderful piece of contemporary new music. I love it.
> 
> What do you think? Please sit back and enjoy this new music.


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## Fabulin

I enjoy it very much. She is a very promising composer.



Portamento said:


> If you're going to be writing music with heavy tonal implications in the 21st century-and many composers do-it should be in a context different from that of the 19th century.


"In July 2017, Deutscher further elaborated this point in an interview with the newspaper Der Standard. Asked about her dreams for the next ten years, she said: "...but the best thing would be if people stopped telling me how it is allowed or not allowed to compose in the twenty-first century. I hope they will have stopped counting my dissonances"."


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## Jacck

not bad for her age. Mozarts childhood compositions were not much better


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## PlaySalieri

Jacck said:


> not bad for her age. Mozarts childhood compositions were not much better


Mozart was 8 when he composed that.

You need to be looking beyond K50 for a proper comparison.

But many young composers have outshone Mozart as a young boy composer - virtually none have come anywhere near him as an adult composer. Korngold was a great composer as a boy - much better than Alma - truly mature compositions - and he did some great stuff as an adult - nowhere near Mozart's league though.

I agree with the poster who said Alma is impressive as a violinist, more so than as a composer.


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## Portamento

Fabulin said:


> Where did this "should" come from, I wonder.


It's my opinion. When there's still new ground to tread, why rehash the 19th century? You can still be a conservative (relatively speaking) who forges a unique style while working in an idiom not entirely dissimilar to the past: take the works of Alwyn, Arnold, Harris, and Rubbra or even Britten and Shostakovich. That being said, I repeat that the composer in question is _very_ young-Ligeti's early works, for example, sounded a hell of a lot like Bartók's.


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## Fabulin

Portamento said:


> It's my opinion. When there's still new ground to tread, why rehash the 19th century? You can still be a conservative (relatively speaking) who forges a unique style while working in an idiom not entirely dissimilar to the past: take the works of Alwyn, Arnold, Harris, and Rubbra or even Britten and Shostakovich. That being said, I repeat that the composer in question is _very_ young-Ligeti's early works, for example, sounded a hell of a lot like Bartók's.


On one hand personally I think that it is only worth composing things that have not been done before. On the other hand, I would leave it up to composers themselves to decide whether there is truly "nothing left to be said" in a certain style, structure etc. Ultimately a non-threatening, sincere passion for one type of music or another should not be met with any negativity. Let's let everyone compose whatever they want. Music is a field that is broad enough for everyone.

Sometimes we wish that someone with a great talent, means, or exposure would work towards the same goals that we have; but who is to make a mule out of an artist?


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## hammeredklavier

stomanek said:


> Mozart was 8 when he composed that.


1761 - 1756 = 5 actually

These are Mozart's compositions at 12~13:


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## Larkenfield

Mozart wrote his first composition at age 5 and even then he was far more masterful and accomplished than Alma. His 4th Symphony is also amazing, and even Mozart at 8 is far beyond anything that Alma has done. (I'm always delighted and amazed to hear it.) BUT, she's not trying to imitate Mozart though there are definite influences, and I view her as a genius in her own right who is slowly developing and has a great work ethic. In some of her interviews she has stated that she knows she's not writing in a contemporary style because what she's mostly interested in is _beauty_. If so, then more power to her. What I think is more important is that her music sounds _real_, even if in a more traditional style, and I find it enjoyable to hear. As she gets older, I believe she will take greater risks because she has laid such a good foundation in 18th and 19th Century music. If only Alma had the equivalent of a Johann Christian Bach to study with like Mozart did!

Repost: Mozart at 8!


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## Portamento

Fabulin said:


> "In July 2017, Deutscher further elaborated this point in an interview with the newspaper Der Standard. Asked about her dreams for the next ten years, she said: "...but the best thing would be if people stopped telling me how it is allowed or not allowed to compose in the twenty-first century. I hope they will have stopped counting my dissonances"."


I am not telling her anything. All I am saying is that there is a lot of diatonic music being composed today that is strikingly original. Too many people have a misconception of contemporary music.


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## PlaySalieri

hammeredklavier said:


> 1761 - 1756 = 5 actually
> 
> These are Mozart's compositions at 12~13:


Yes the early masses are mostly wonders - shame they are not better known. I keep championing K139 - the early great mass in C minor and I do recommend it strongly - I was amazed when I first heard it.

We needn't get carried away that there is a young person who can put together a passable concerto. As others have said - until she reaches maturity we wont know where she is going.


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## PlaySalieri

Larkenfield said:


> Mozart wrote his first composition at age 5 and even then he was far more masterful and accomplished than Alma. His 4th Symphony is also amazing, and even Mozart at 8 is far beyond anything that Alma has done. (I'm always delighted and amazed to hear it.) BUT, she's not trying to imitate Mozart though there are definite influences, and I view her as a genius in her own right who is slowly developing and has a great work ethic. In some of her interviews she has stated that she knows she's not writing in a contemporary style because what she's mostly interested in is _beauty_. If so, then more power to her. What I think is more important is that her music sounds _real_, even if in a more traditional style, and I find it enjoyable to hear. As she gets older, I believe she will take greater risks because she has laid such a good foundation in 18th and 19th Century music. *If only Alma had the equivalent of a Johann Christian Bach to study with like Mozart did!*
> 
> Repost: Mozart at 8!


you mean a top contemporary composer as a teacher?

well there are plenty available if only she will ask.


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## DaveM

stomanek said:


> you mean a top contemporary composer as a teacher?
> 
> well there are plenty available if only she will ask.


The equivalent of Bach??


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## Portamento

DaveM said:


> The equivalent of Bach??


Johann Christian? Yes.


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## DaveM

Portamento said:


> Johann Christian? Yes.


The one who Mozart later said he owed a debt to? No. I would put my bet on a 3rd string Bach than anyone presently living.


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## Portamento

DaveM said:


> I would put my bet on a 3rd string Bach than anyone presently living.


That's your take, and I have mine.


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## BachIsBest

Portamento said:


> I am not telling her anything. All I am saying is that there is a lot of diatonic music being composed today that is strikingly original. Too many people have a misconception of contemporary music.


I'm not sure there is as much misconception as you think. I am aware of strikingly original music (tonal stuff too) but am unaware of anything that I have found strikingly good. It seems that too often these two things are conflated by those arguing for contemporary music.

I think it is an oft-forgotten lesson that possibly the greatest composer of all time, J. S. Bach, was ignored in his time not because he was ahead of it but because he was writing in a musical idiom that was no longer in vogue.


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## Portamento

BachIsBest said:


> I'm not sure there is as much misconception as you think. I am aware of strikingly original music (tonal stuff too) but am unaware of anything that I have found strikingly good. It seems that too often these two things are conflated by those arguing for contemporary music.
> 
> I think it is an oft-forgotten lesson that possibly the greatest composer of all time, J. S. Bach, was ignored in his time not because he was ahead of it but because he was writing in a musical idiom that was no longer in vogue.


Would you like some recommendations for "strikingly good" (tonal) contemporary music?

Your statement regarding Bach is _very_ debatable. Let's just leave it at that.


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## Razumovskymas

BachIsBest said:


> I'm not sure there is as much misconception as you think. I am aware of strikingly original music (tonal stuff too) but am unaware of anything that I have found strikingly good. It seems that too often these two things are conflated by those arguing for contemporary music.
> 
> I think it is an oft-forgotten lesson that possibly the greatest composer of all time, J. S. Bach, was ignored in his time not because he was ahead of it but because he was writing in a musical idiom that was no longer in vogue.


I think even some of Beethoven's later works were in a style that was a bit "old-fashioned" compared to his contemporaries. A body of work that reflects the fashion of the day or tries to be one step ahead in some sense doesn't really seem interesting to me. Sure, a lot of great composers were ahead of their time but that simple fact doen's make them great. I even think an artist who thinks he has to be "relevant" in some way doesn't seem interesting to me, so in that sense I really like Alma's approach a lot (apart from the quality of her work; I haven't listened to it a lot). And the advice that she should listen more to contemporaries that write tonal in a more politically correct way is a bit silly I think.

Ok, and now I'm going to listen to her violin concerto!


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## science

Are we back to this again? Do we really have to choose between insulting a talented child and liking progressive music?


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## janxharris

science said:


> Are we back to this again? Do we really have to choose between insulting a talented child and liking progressive music?


It might be worth querying whether Alma's work was performed instead of a more worthy composer just because of interest in her age; it would be difficult though without knowing the quality of the competition.


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## Johnnie Burgess

science said:


> Are we back to this again? Do we really have to choose between insulting a talented child and liking progressive music?


People who like progressive music would upset if Cage was insulted like she is.


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## DaveM

science said:


> Are we back to this again? Do we really have to choose between insulting a talented child and liking progressive music?


Back to this again? Are we in the habit of 'choosing between insulting a talented child and liking progressive music'?


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## Machiavel

Amateur at best at playing and her composition are worst. she is a gimmick well marketed by her parents but she takes the spolight from hordes of young musicians much better than her at the same age. LIsten to HIlary hann german debut at 15 playing bach and tell me Alma is not some form of pastiche André RIeu. SHe composes mainstream classical ish music for old peoples who have a smile in there faces thinking she is so beautiful.

She may become a great composer but as somone previously said there is great original contemporary music but few strikingly good music that you want to comeback to it with the like of the olds great masters of classical, romantic and modenr era. JUst my two cents, but I dont see much diffenrece between her and the so called pro going to the voice and shows where after 1 min , the judges are in awe of the single greatest thing ever seen until the nest performance.


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## DavidA

She is certainly a gifted kid but seems to nee more of a gimmick at the moment, rather like the young Mozart was. I wish kids like this could just develop away from the spotlight and then we could see their talent when it's had at least a bit of time to mature a little. I'd say at present she is attractive because she is young, pretty and writes easily accessible music - nothing wrong with that but interesting how she will mature.


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## KenOC

It seems to me that Alma is writing and playing the kind of music she likes, and there are plenty of people who enjoy seeing and hearing her. She’s having a grand time and no doubt enjoying the exposure just like any other successful showbiz kid. I’m puzzled why anybody would get in a snit about this.


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## DaveM

Machiavel said:


> Amateur at best at playing and her composition are worst. she is a gimmick well marketed by her parents but she takes the spolight from hordes of young musicians much better than her at the same age. LIsten to HIlary hann german debut at 15 playing bach and tell me Alma is not some form of pastiche André RIeu...


Really? I played the violin and I know what amateurs sound like. There are not hordes of musicians better than her at the same age. A comparison with Hilary Hahn is irrelevant. Violinists who move from amateur to professional do not ordinarily graduate to the level of a Hilary Hahn. All those violinists in the major (and a number of minor) orchestras are professional. Whether Alma ends up as a successful Hahn-level recording artist remains to be seen. Is she at an early professional level? Yes.


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## PlaySalieri

Machiavel said:


> Amateur at best at playing and her composition are worst. she is a gimmick well marketed by her parents but she takes the spolight from hordes of young musicians much better than her at the same age. LIsten to HIlary hann german debut at 15 playing bach and tell me Alma is not some form of pastiche André RIeu. SHe composes mainstream classical ish music for old peoples who have a smile in there faces thinking she is so beautiful.
> 
> She may become a great composer but as somone previously said there is great original contemporary music but few strikingly good music that you want to comeback to it with the like of the olds great masters of classical, romantic and modenr era. JUst my two cents, but I dont see much diffenrece between her and the so called pro going to the voice and shows where after 1 min , the judges are in awe of the single greatest thing ever seen until the nest performance.


she is only 12 in that video - a lot happens to the sound of a well taught young violinist between 12 and 15

however - since she is aiming to be a composer - and reaching Hahn's level is a 6 hour a day job over 12 years - I wouldnt bet on her improving significantly in the future. I would like to hear her play some paganini caprices before really judging her level.


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## hammeredklavier

BachIsBest said:


> I think it is an oft-forgotten lesson that possibly the greatest composer of all time, J. S. Bach, was ignored in his time not because he was ahead of it but because he was writing in a musical idiom that was no longer in vogue.


I reject the idea Bach was ignored because he was old-fashioned. I would say the more plausible reasons for the supposed lack of popularity of his music during 18th century were

1. He did not compose for any significant popular genres. Any composer who worked for the church and liturgy at the time were just as obscure as Bach.
2. Before 19th century, most dead composers' music were not well-unknown to the public because people were not interested in them and did little effort to "rediscover" them and display them to the public. All music after their composers' death, suffered loss of popularity like Bach's music.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_music_revival

In fact, Bach wasn't totally obscure before Mendelssion's revival of his music, as there were connoisseurs such as Gottfried van Swieten who collected copies of his music. As we know from Mozart's arrangement of Bach fugues (K405), he had access to the Well-Tempered Clavier and Art of the Fugue. Some see the opening of Fantasy in C minor K475 as reference to the Musical Offering.
Also, Haydn had access to Bach's Mass in B minor:

_"Haydn did, in fact, know the Bach Mass, because there was a copy in the Esterhazy Archives at Eisenstadt"_
https://books.google.ca/books?id=p5...ved=0ahUKEwi2gcbMro3kAhXvIDQIHdmMA8sQ6AEIOzAD
Haydn: Haydn at Eszterháza, 1766-1790, page 229

If Handel and Mozart worked for the church throughout their lives and never composed any popular secular genres as operas, they would have been as obscure as Bach even during their active periods regardless whether they wrote in an old-idiom or not.

Mozart actually placed CPE Bach, Handel, Michael Haydn in the same category of "ancient music" as JS Bach in one instance, in a letter to his father in the early 1780s. Even though CPE Bach, Michael Haydn were still alive at the time. Not many people at the time were interested in reviving old music that was composed some 20~30 years earlier, even ones by living composers.

_"Mozart wrote to his father on 29 March 1783 about the musical gatherings in the apartments of Baron van Swieten: "we love to amuse ourselves with all kind of masters, ancient and modern." So music was the main object of these Kenner's interest - provided it was masterful. Occasionally, one of the other of the composers Mozart and his colleagues studied in these sessions is mentioned in the Mozart correspondence by name: Johann Ernst Eberlin, for instance, or Georg Friedrich Handel, or J.S. Bach and his sons Wilhelm Friedemann and Carl Phillp Emmanuel, or Michael Haydn. Some of these were still among the living; the works Mozart and his colleagues examined were written for the most part in the first half of the eighteenth century. Nonetheless, some of the composers were already considered to be "old," or, to put it another way, "not modern."
...
In the spring of 1783, when his father hesitated to send some of his own sacred compositions to Vienna, Mozart encouraged him to do so with the argument that Kenner knew full well, "that musical taste is continually changing and what is more, that this extends even to church music, which ought not to be the case..."_
http://mrc.hanyang.ac.kr/wp-content/jspm/20/jspm_2006_20_10.pdf



Razumovskymas said:


> I think even some of Beethoven's later works were in a style that was a bit "old-fashioned" compared to his contemporaries. A body of work that reflects the fashion of the day or tries to be one step ahead in some sense doesn't really seem interesting to me.


Instrumental genres such as string quartets of Haydn, Mozart, Beethoven were not very popular even though they weren't old-fashioned in their times.



hammeredklavier said:


> _"During the last decade of Mozart's life, the Baron, to a certain extent, helped Mozart financially, including commissioning the Händel arrangements, and when Mozart became disillusioned with the musical tastes at Court, Mozart wrote that van Swieten was among the group of Vienna's music lovers who asked him to stay. In 1789, Mozart wrote that after two weeks of circulation, the only name on a subscription list to support Mozart's concerts, was that of the Baron."
> 
> ...
> 
> "Early reception of the "Haydn" Quartets was both enthusiastic and disgruntled. An anonymous early reviewer, writing in Cramer's Magazin der Musik in 1789, gave a judgment characteristic of reaction to Mozart's music at the time, namely that the works were inspired, but too complex and difficult to enjoy:
> "Mozart's works do not in general please quite so much [as those of Kozeluch] ... [Mozart's] six quartets for violins, viola, and bass dedicated to Haydn confirm ... that he has a decided leaning towards the difficult and the unusual. But then, what great and elevated ideas he has too, testifying to a bold spirit!"
> Giuseppe Sarti later published an attack against the "Dissonance" quartet, describing sections as "barbarous", "execrable", and "miserable" in its use of whole-tone clusters and chromatic extremes. Around this same time, Fétis printed a revision of the opening of the "Dissonance" quartet, implying that Mozart had made errors. When the publishers, Artaria, sent the quartets to Italy for publication, they were returned with the report "the engraving is full of mistakes". However, Heinrich Christoph Koch noted that these works were praiseworthy for "their mixture of strict and free styles and the treatment of harmony". Favorable reports of the quartets came soon after their publication from newspapers in Salzburg and Berlin. In the early 19th century, Jérôme-Joseph de Momigny wrote an extended analysis of No. 15 in D minor, K. 421."_


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## BachIsBest

hammeredklavier said:


> I reject the idea Bach was ignored because he was old-fashioned. I would say the more plausible reasons for the supposed lack of popularity of his music during 18th century were
> 
> 1. He did not compose for any significant popular genres. Any composer who worked for the church and liturgy at the time were just as obscure as Bach.
> 2. Before 19th century, most dead composers' music were not well-unknown to the public because people were not interested in them and did little effort to "rediscover" them and display them to the public. All music after their composers' death, suffered loss of popularity like Bach's music.
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_music_revival
> 
> In fact, Bach wasn't totally obscure before Mendelssion's revival of his music, as there were connoisseurs such as Gottfried van Swieten who collected copies of his music. As we know from Mozart's arrangement of Bach fugues (K405), he had access to the Well-Tempered Clavier and Art of the Fugue. Some see the opening of Fantasy in C minor K475 as reference to the Musical Offering.
> Also, Haydn had access to Bach's Mass in B minor:
> 
> _"Haydn did, in fact, know the Bach Mass, because there was a copy in the Esterhazy Archives at Eisenstadt"_
> https://books.google.ca/books?id=p5...ved=0ahUKEwi2gcbMro3kAhXvIDQIHdmMA8sQ6AEIOzAD
> Haydn: Haydn at Eszterháza, 1766-1790, page 229
> 
> If Handel and Mozart worked for the church throughout their lives and never composed any popular secular genres as operas, they would have been as obscure as Bach even during their active periods regardless whether they wrote in an old-idiom or not.
> 
> Mozart actually placed CPE Bach, Handel, Michael Haydn in the same category of "ancient music" as JS Bach in one instance, in a letter to his father in the early 1780s. Even though CPE Bach, Michael Haydn were still alive at the time. Not many people at the time were interested in reviving old music that was composed some 20~30 years earlier, even ones by living composers.
> 
> _"Mozart wrote to his father on 29 March 1783 about the musical gatherings in the apartments of Baron van Swieten: "we love to amuse ourselves with all kind of masters, ancient and modern." So music was the main object of these Kenner's interest - provided it was masterful. Occasionally, one of the other of the composers Mozart and his colleagues studied in these sessions is mentioned in the Mozart correspondence by name: Johann Ernst Eberlin, for instance, or Georg Friedrich Handel, or J.S. Bach and his sons Wilhelm Friedemann and Carl Phillp Emmanuel, or Michael Haydn. Some of these were still among the living; the works Mozart and his colleagues examined were written for the most part in the first half of the eighteenth century. Nonetheless, some of the composers were already considered to be "old," or, to put it another way, "not modern."
> ...
> In the spring of 1783, when his father hesitated to send some of his own sacred compositions to Vienna, Mozart encouraged him to do so with the argument that Kenner knew full well, "that musical taste is continually changing and what is more, that this extends even to church music, which ought not to be the case..."_
> http://mrc.hanyang.ac.kr/wp-content/jspm/20/jspm_2006_20_10.pdf
> 
> Instrumental genres such as string quartets of Haydn, Mozart, Beethoven were not very popular even though they weren't old-fashioned in their times.


I agree that if Mozart and Haydn didn't compose in popular secular genres and focussed largely on church music they would have been about as popular as Bach, in fact, this is precisely my point. Bach wasn't popular because he wasn't writing the music of the time; he was writing church music which was not overly popular amongst audiences.

I also realise Bach wasn't completely unknown prior to Mendhellson. His keyboard works especially never really died in their popularity amongst the musical class.

Anyways if you want a cut and dry example of my point one could look at Rachmaninoff who obviously composed in a Romantic style after the world had moved on.


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## DaveM

BachIsBest said:


> ..Anyways if you want a cut and dry example of my point one could look at Rachmaninoff who obviously composed in a Romantic style after the world had moved on.


Well, perhaps the 'music intelligentsia' moved on, but apparently, given the popularity of Rachmaninoff, the common man/woman didn't.


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## BachIsBest

DaveM said:


> Well, perhaps the 'music intelligentsia' moved on, but apparently, given the popularity of Rachmaninoff, the common man/woman didn't.


I think the common man wouldn't even know who Rachmaninoff is. The world moved on line wasn't the best descriptor, perhaps a better one would have been that trendy musical tastes had moved on.


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## Larkenfield

Quote Originally Posted by Machiavel View Post
Amateur at best at playing and her composition are worst. she is a gimmick well marketed by her parents but she takes the spolight from hordes of young musicians much better than her at the same age.
-- 
I believe you will be proven wrong. She is an excellent violinist, pianist, vocalist, and has written concertos, opera, songs, and more. She is self-motivated and no one is exploiting her talent as a gimmick. She is an obviously happy and glowing child. There is great interest in her music and such harsh criticism is unjustified and unwarranted, in my opinion. She is still a teenager and yet has attracted worldwide interest that is well deserved. Some of you are just not up to speed in all that she has done, starting with her outstanding ability as an instrumentalist on violin and piano, which for her age is remarkable. She sounds completely natural on both. I consider her a miraculous breath of fresh air in a troubled world.






There is a brief interview between each movement of each concerto:











Bravo!


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## DaveM

BachIsBest said:


> I think the common man wouldn't even know who Rachmaninoff is.


Is it necessary on a classical music forum to have to specify that I'm talking about the music-listening common man/woman?


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## Merl

I voted 'unsure' as ive only heard it once and didnt give it a proper listen. However, we should give this young lady a break. Shes immensely talented and will , undoubtedly, be a major figure in classical music in the future. I like her honesty. Go for it, Alma!


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## mmsbls

DaveM said:


> Is it necessary on a classical music forum to have to specify that I'm talking about the music-listening common man/woman?


Actually, I assumed you were talking about the _classical_ music listening public, and I'm guessing very few of those have not heard of Rachmaninoff.


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## EdwardBast

BachIsBest said:


> I agree that if Mozart and Haydn didn't compose in popular secular genres and focussed largely on church music they would have been about as popular as Bach, in fact, this is precisely my point. Bach wasn't popular because he wasn't writing the music of the time; he was writing church music which was not overly popular amongst audiences.
> 
> I also realise Bach wasn't completely unknown prior to Mendhellson. His keyboard works especially never really died in their popularity amongst the musical class.
> 
> Anyways if you want a cut and dry example of my point one could look at *Rachmaninoff who obviously composed in a Romantic style after the world had moved on.*


Rachmaninoff's career as a composer was virtually over by 1917 and the language of some of his last works composed in Russia (like the songs Op. 38 and Etudes Op. 39) had advanced beyond the Romantic vocabulary.

Addressing the OP question: I'll take an interest in Deutscher's music when she develops an individual voice. Prokofiev sounded like Prokofiev from the age of 12.


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## mmsbls

EdwardBast said:


> ...
> Addressing the OP question: I'll take an interest in Deutscher's music when she develops an individual voice. Prokofiev sounded like Prokofiev from the age of 12.


Do you have a sense of how many well known composers (say after 1900) had an individual voice at an early age? I imagine it's fairly unusual that we hear composer's works at this age. Do we know when today's composers actually start composing serious works (i.e. full orchestral or chamber works)?

I'm wondering how easy it is to compare Deutscher to modern or contemporary composers given her age.


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## DaveM

Given Alma Deutscher’s command of the piano, violin and, to some extent, orchestration, my guess is that she ends up as a conductor with some composing on the side.


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## PlaySalieri

mmsbls said:


> Do you have a sense of how many well known composers (say after 1900) had an individual voice at an early age? I imagine it's fairly unusual that we hear composer's works at this age. Do we know when today's composers actually start composing serious works (i.e. full orchestral or chamber works)?
> 
> I'm wondering how easy it is to compare Deutscher to modern or contemporary composers given her age.


I know an english composer _ wont say who - but he had an opera produced in London a few years ago to some acclaim. He was composing in the style of R Strauss when at music college - very advanced stuff and passable r Strauss - by 25 he was doing more avant garde sounding opera. He said to me he was using various styles and eras to arrive at his own voice.

Its just a sample of one of course.


----------



## Xisten267

ArtMusic said:


> Probably the most popular violin concerto composed in the last five years. This sia wonderful piece of contemporary new music. I love it.
> 
> What do you think? Please sit back and enjoy this new music.


Just listened to it. I think that this concerto is... well, pretty, and just that, but still, quite a feat for a nine year old child.


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## Enthusiast

At her age it doesn't matter. But it does matter that it gets played and promoted as something wonderful, which it most assuredly is not. A gifted child but what is wrong with the world that we get professional performances of her piece? As the work of a young child it is interesting but as music for people who like classical music .... . I really disliked the piece!


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## DaveM

^^^ So you’re ticked off that people filled concert halls to watch a gifted child play ‘traditional quasi 19th century tonal’ self-composed works. My question is (using your terminology) what is wrong with the classical music world where hyped contemporary works can’t attract the attention that the aforementioned works can? 

The nature of so much of what people are calling classsical music these days has confused audiences and narrowed them in the process. However amateurish experienced classical music listeners may think the Alma Deutcher works are, the fact is that they are highly accessible to those who are less experienced.


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## MatthewWeflen

I thought it was pretty good! Somewhat derivative, surely. But then, how much classical music isn't?


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## EdwardBast

mmsbls said:


> *Do you have a sense of how many well known composers (say after 1900) had an individual voice at an early age?* I imagine it's fairly unusual that we hear composer's works at this age. Do we know when today's composers actually start composing serious works (i.e. full orchestral or chamber works)?
> 
> I'm wondering how easy it is to compare Deutscher to modern or contemporary composers given her age.


No, I don't. Prokofiev sprang to mind because I have heard a fair amount of his juvenilia. Young people inclined toward composition often begin undergraduate or conservatory studies with some complete works under their belts. But I have no general data to answer your question.


----------



## Bulldog

MatthewWeflen said:


> I thought it was pretty good! Somewhat derivative, surely.


It's about 200 years in the derivative category.


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## DaveM

Bulldog said:


> It's about 200 years in the derivative category.


1819 was a good year!


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## Sloe

Why this obsession with her. I can hear tuneful and accessible works by contemporary composers on radio everyday. It doesn´t sound like works from 200 years ago but Beethoven didn´t write works that sounded like 200 years ago from his time either. Not all composers or not even a majority makes odd sounding music just for the sake of founding out a tone combination or a sound. They are people that loves classical music like must people on this forum and they even love it so much that they have spend a large part of their life to give the world more classical music.


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## PlaySalieri

Sloe said:


> Why this obsession with her. I can hear tuneful and accessible works by contemporary composers on radio everyday. It doesn´t sound like works from 200 years ago but Beethoven didn´t write works that sounded like 200 years ago from his time either. Not all composers or not even a majority makes odd sounding music just for the sake of founding out a tone combination or a sound. They are people that loves classical music like must people on this forum and they even love it so much that they have spend a large part of their life to give the world more classical music.


I agree with you - there are probably hundreds or more violin concertos composed in the last 30 years I would, if I had the time - listen to before even considering Alma's works - I mean compositions by fully fledged mature composers. I listened to some of her works - bits here and there. I would hope to find a freshness in her music - but its mainly just dusty old cob webs.

Why the obsession. It's her age - and the fact she has undoubted technical skill in composition and performance which is unusual but by no means unique in the classical music world. We just dont hear about the other young maestros as they have not been promoted at all.


----------



## Sloe

stomanek said:


> Why the obsession. It's her age - and the fact she has undoubted technical skill in composition and performance which is unusual but by no means unique in the classical music world. We just dont hear about the other young maestros as they have not been promoted at all.


I was mostly thinking of the threadstarter who thinks she is the saviour of classical music. For all we may know she might loose her interest in music next year and end up as something else.


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## PlaySalieri

Sloe said:


> I was mostly thinking of the threadstarter who thinks she is the saviour of classical music. For all we may know she might loose her interest in music next year and end up as something else.


Looks like the OP is a big fan already.

But look - so far 7 posters love her concerto. Maybe they can hear something we cant.


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## Sloe

stomanek said:


> Looks like the OP is a big fan already.
> 
> But look - so far 7 posters love her concerto. Maybe they can hear something we cant.


I just think it is just a bunt of passages of somewhat nicely tunes.
It lacks the power of being a good enjoyable and beautiful work that you want to listen to completely and then wants to listen to over and over again that is what a work to be loved should mean.

Nothing bad against her but I think it would be nicer if she could learn to be a composer in the shadow if she will end up as one and then get attention when she is an adult.


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## KenOC

I wonder if a point is being missed here. Meaning no disrespect to young Alma, if there were a talking dog, speaking clearly and with a pleasing voice and accent, that would be an amazing thing and a lot of people would pay good money for the act. Whether the dog had anything really interesting to say would be a lesser issue.


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## Sloe

KenOC said:


> I wonder if a point is being missed here. Meaning no disrespect to young Alma, if there were a talking dog, speaking clearly and with a pleasing voice and accent, that would be an amazing thing and a lot of people would pay good money for the act. Whether the dog had anything really interesting to say would be a lesser issue.


Well no one seems to care that Brian can talk.


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## DaveM

I don’t understand why some posters have their knickers in a knot over Alma Deutcher. No one is obsessed -a pretty extreme word- with her. She has attracted interest because there are very few, if any, persons her age who are accomplished in both the violin and piano to that level and who have composed violin and piano concertos. The concertos are not highly sophisticated works compared to those composed during the period they are emulating, but they are very accomplished for someone that age and indicate an understanding of orchestration that very few of her age have.

I will also repeat, in a different form, what I said before. If she was only playing the violin she would be noteworthy and the violin concerto is more developed and overall more interesting than the piano concerto. Personally, I would go to see a concert with Alma playing one of her concertos, in a heartbeat, over a Los Angeles Phil concert with one of their often crappy commissioned works.


----------



## Sloe

DaveM said:


> I don't understand why some posters have their knickers in a knot over Alma Deutcher. No one is obsessed -a pretty extreme word- with her.


Maybe an extreme word but the OP have made several post of how fantastic she is not only because of her age but that she makes beautiful classical music again out of a over 100 year old lack of it and have talked about her as the essential saviour of classical music that will bring it back to how it should sound like. She is a child that is skilled for her age that´s it.


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## DeepR

Just had a laugh while listening to the music that I made myself at age 14. Somewhere mid 90s with so called "tracker" software (I'm glad that I've always kept those old files).

So yeah, I'm certainly impressed with Alma Deutscher. But I did vote "indifferent".


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## DaveM

I was inspired by some of the above comments to listen to the violin concerto again. By itself, it obviously has limitations compared to the violin concerto repertoire, but there are some inspired moments such as the fugal passage starting at about 6:30. But what makes this work worth watching more than anything else is her playing. 

The violin is (arguably) the most difficult instrument to master. In order to do so, one has to have superior eye-hand coordination when it comes to moving the bow on the strings and fingering the strings with appropriate vibrato with the other hand. Alma is well past the amateur stage. This is a live performance: the notes were spot-on accurate and there was no momentary screetching -that occurs even with some recording artists- in the faster passages, especially when the bow is moving across 2 strings. My guess is that the inspiration for her concerto was one of the more difficult ones, the Mendelssohn. My bet is that she is at a stage where she could passably play almost any of the main violin concertos


----------



## KenOC

DaveM said:


> My bet is that she is at a stage where she could passably play almost any of the main violin concertos


Could be. Beethoven's long-forgotten violin concerto was resurrected in 1844 and played by a twelve year-old Joseph Joachim, in London, conducted by Mendelssohn.


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## paulbest

Here is a short list of 21st C classical music composer,,I stopped reading the list @ 10K. By all means read on,,and this is only a partial list.

Not sure why everyone is all exited about a child prodigy who has yet to prove her worth, look at how often a child prodigy turns out average, Lang Lang, and many others. 
You guys can believe what you want, I've noted the tradition has passed away many moons ago.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_21st-century_classical_composers


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## mmsbls

paulbest said:


> ...Not sure why everyone is all exited about a child prodigy who has yet to prove her worth, look at how often a child prodigy turns out average, Lang Lang, and many others.
> You guys can believe what you want, I've noted the tradition has passed away many moons ago.


To be fair, I think the response of the vast majority on TC seems to be, "She's talented. She's young. We'll see."


----------



## DaveM

paulbest said:


> Here is a short list of 21st C classical music composer,,I stopped reading the list @ 10K. By all means read on,,and this is only a partial list.
> 
> Not sure why everyone is all exited about a child prodigy who has yet to prove her worth, look at how often a child prodigy turns out average, Lang Lang, and many others.
> You guys can believe what you want, I've noted the tradition has passed away many moons ago.


You may not like his playing, but that doesn't make Lang Lang an average talent. Your point is another one of those off-the-cuff remarks without substance. Who are the many other prodigies that have turned out to be average? Martha Argerich? Claudio Arrau? Sarah Chang? Daniel Barenboim? Evgeny Kissin? Nigel Kennedy? Yo-Yo Ma?

Btw, You can rest easy. I don't think Alma Deutcher has tackled Debussy yet.


----------



## DavidA

paulbest said:


> Here is a short list of 21st C classical music composer,,I stopped reading the list @ 10K. By all means read on,,and this is only a partial list.
> 
> Not sure why everyone is all exited about a child prodigy who has yet to prove her worth, *look at how often a child prodigy turns out average, Lang Lang, and many others. *
> You guys can believe what you want, I've noted the tradition has passed away many moons ago.
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_21st-century_classical_composers


Interesting. As Lang Lang has inspired literally millions to play the piano in China, has played with most of the major orchestras, has his own school and is worth about $30 million I would say his career is well above average! :lol:


----------



## DavidA

DaveM said:


> You may not like his playing, but that doesn't make Lang Lang an average talent. Your point is another one of those off-the-cuff remarks without substance. *Who are the many other prodigies that have turned out to be average? *Martha Argerich? Claudio Arrau? Sarah Chang? Daniel Barenboim? Evgeny Kissin? Nigel Kennedy? Yo-Yo Ma?
> 
> Btw, You can rest easy. I don't think Alma Deutcher has tackled Debussy yet.


There were of course Mozart, Beethoven and Mendelssohn! Oh and Saint Saens! :lol:


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## PlaySalieri

There have been thousands of young talents over the years who have not made it. Why? Many are pushed by their parents and when they get old enough to do what they want to do - they ditch music and follow another direction.


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## PlaySalieri

DaveM said:


> I was inspired by some of the above comments to listen to the violin concerto again. By itself, it obviously has limitations compared to the violin concerto repertoire, but there are some inspired moments such as the fugal passage starting at about 6:30. But what makes this work worth watching more than anything else is her playing.
> 
> The violin is (arguably) the most difficult instrument to master. In order to do so, one has to have superior eye-hand coordination when it comes to moving the bow on the strings and fingering the strings with appropriate vibrato with the other hand. Alma is well past the amateur stage. This is a live performance: the notes were spot-on accurate and there was no momentary screetching -that occurs even with some recording artists- in the faster passages, especially when the bow is moving across 2 strings. My guess is that the inspiration for her concerto was one of the more difficult ones, the Mendelssohn. My bet is that she is at a stage where she could passably play almost any of the main violin concertos


Yes she is a fine violinist - she must have a very good tutor and practice a lot and be talented.

But the world is awash with young violin talents - go and watch the young section of the Menuhin competition - they all sound flawless - 12-15 year olds.


----------



## DaveM

stomanek said:


> Yes she is a fine violinist - she must have a very good tutor and practice a lot and be talented.
> 
> But the world is awash with young violin talents - go and watch the young section of the Menuhin competition - they all sound flawless - 12-15 year olds.


The subject was prodigies not 'young talents'. She composed a violin concerto at age 9, a full-length opera at age 10 and the piano concerto at age 12 (she started piano at 2 and violin at 3). The world is not awash with such classical music prodigies.


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## PlaySalieri

DaveM said:


> The subject was prodigies not 'young talents'. She composed a violin concerto at age 9, a full-length opera at age 10 and the piano concerto at age 12 (she started piano at 2 and violin at 3). The world is not awash of such classical music prodigies.


no true - well good luck to her and let us follow her career and see where she goes.


----------



## Enthusiast

DaveM said:


> ^^^ So you're ticked off that people filled concert halls to watch a gifted child play 'traditional quasi 19th century tonal' self-composed works. My question is (using your terminology) what is wrong with the classical music world where hyped contemporary works can't attract the attention that the aforementioned works can?
> 
> The nature of so much of what people are calling classsical music these days has confused audiences and narrowed them in the process. However amateurish experienced classical music listeners may think the Alma Deutcher works are, the fact is that they are highly accessible to those who are less experienced.


I can't speak for what audiences like or understand or find ugly. For myself, I tend to find pastiche in music ugly and this piece was no exception. My main concern, though, is the exposure she got which IMO can't be good for her as it was earned more by her age (combined with her undoubted talent) than by the quality of the music. Maybe I'm wrong but it seems to me that an adult who composed the same piece would not have attracted any attention. I am always suspicious when talented kids are pushed to the fore and fear it often ends badly for them.


----------



## PlaySalieri

Enthusiast said:


> I can't speak for what audiences like or understand or find ugly. For myself, I tend to find pastiche in music ugly and this piece was no exception. My main concern, though, is the exposure she got which IMO can't be good for her as it was earned more by her age (combined with her undoubted talent) than by the quality of the music. Maybe I'm wrong but it seems to me that an adult who composed the same piece would not have attracted any attention. *I am always suspicious when talented kids are pushed to the fore and fear it often ends badly for them.*


Mozart was pushed to the fore.

I think this kind of thing tends to snowball. A child starts having music lessons - the teacher says - your child is talented - so there are more lessons - more instruments. Parents are proud to have such a wonder on their hands, enjoy the prestige and fame - so they allow this snowball to continue to get bigger and bigger until its out of control. There are too many forces in play to stop it - parents - school - music teachers (who stand to benefit financially) the media - all encourage it.

and at the centre - there is a child.

Who knows what the truth is at the heart if this story.


----------



## DaveM

Enthusiast said:


> ...I am always suspicious when talented kids are pushed to the fore and fear it often ends badly for them.


It's a legitimate concern. So far, Alma Deutscher doesn't appear to be negatively affected, but that remains to be seen.


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## Dimace

I didn't listen more than 5 min to tell you the truth. If the girl wants to be a violin player she is all right. In some years she will manage to play beautifully. She needs practice. (hard sounded violin I heard) If she wants to be a composer, no comment. I have seen that she also plays the piano. We shall see...

OK! The Bach Concerto for two pianos was all right. Very unison outcome (both girls are playing with the same dynamics and the orchestra doesn't help the situation, is to loud too...) but ok. A lot of hands (very unwanted) movements though... She can make also the pianist, but she must try hard. The competition is high out there... 

Thanks for the post. I didn't know the young, talented Alma.


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## PlaySalieri

DaveM said:


> It's a legitimate concern.* So far, Alma Deutscher doesn't appear to be negatively affected,* but that remains to be seen.


all we see is the public face - who knows what goes on behind the scenes


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## Guest

This young girl obviously has talent; there's no doubting that. And she loves music. But is that enough to have me listening the way through this pastiche? I'm afraid not.


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## DaveM

For all those using the word ‘pastiche’, it is meant to imply a positive, not pejorative descriptor.


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## KenOC

Around here, “pastiche” is definitely a pejorative. But in fact, Alma’s music is written in an idiom that is natural and welcome to her and to her audience as well. Whatever her music’s merits, they are separate from the idiom that she writes in.

In that sense, the term “pastiche” has a flavor of snobbishness that might well be puzzling to young Alma and repellant to her audience.


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## Torkelburger

I don't think it's so much that the idiom is natural and welcome to her in as much as it is the only thing she knows and is the only thing she is capable of writing at the moment. She is ignorant of anything else. You can only write what you know. If she was asked to write a pastiche of Stravinsky she wouldn't know what to do. Or even Brahms, Wagner, Mahler, Tchaikovsky, or Debussy for that matter. Those idioms are too complicated for a child. She is comfortable with what she has been taught, and she has been taught what you teach children. When she is a little older, hopefully she will attend conservatory and learn the compositional techniques used in the past 230 years and will be open to using them in her own compositions.

The use of the word "pastiche" is not snobbish nor pejorative. We use the word exactly the way it means as we can only be expected to use words at their face value:
pas·tiche
/paˈstēSH,päˈstēSH/

noun
1.	1.
an artistic work in a style that imitates that of another work, artist, or period.

https://www.lexico.com/en/definition/pastiche


----------



## Razumovskymas

All in all, I think she would be quite happy reading all these elaborate posts about her work. TC's finest at work! :lol:


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## paulbest

well if everyone around her is patting her constantly on the back, saying what a wonderful job she is doing,,,she might think her writing style is cool/ok.
The romantic crows might follow her future endeavors , but i am afraid the modernists might slip out the side door during halftime break. 
She would be more future productive if she laid the pen aside and immersed herself in Pettersson, Schnittke, Carter and Henze. 
Shake it up, then see what comes out in her creativity 20 years later. 
Because if she continues with this style, she may end up a 2nd rate Tchaikovsky.


----------



## DaveM

Torkelburger said:


> The use of the word "pastiche" is not snobbish nor pejorative. We use the word exactly the way it means as we can only be expected to use words at their face value:
> pas·tiche
> /paˈstēSH,päˈstēSH/
> 
> noun
> 1.	1.
> an artistic work in a style that imitates that of another work, artist, or period.
> 
> https://www.lexico.com/en/definition/pastiche


Well, good for you. You copied the first definition that came up in Google, including pronunciation. If you look a little farther, you'll find the background of the true use of 'pastiche': 
_'Pastiche is a creative work that imitates another author or genre. It's a way of paying respect, or honor, to great works of the past. Pastiche differs from parody in that pastiche isn't making fun of the works it imitates.'_



> I don't think it's so much that the idiom is natural and welcome to her in as much as it is the only thing she knows and is the only thing she is capable of writing at the moment. She is ignorant of anything else. You can only write what you know. If she was asked to write a pastiche of Stravinsky she wouldn't know what to do. Or even Brahms, Wagner, Mahler, Tchaikovsky, or Debussy for that matter. Those idioms are too complicated for a child. She is comfortable with what she has been taught, and she has been taught what you teach children. When she is a little older, hopefully she will attend conservatory and learn the compositional techniques used in the past 230 years and will be open to using them in her own compositions.


How do you know what she knows or not or what she's capable of doing or not if put to the challenge? She didn't just start out yesterday. She's well past parroting just what she's been taught and she's writing and playing what resonates with her.


----------



## DaveM

paulbest said:


> well if everyone around her is patting her constantly on the back, saying what a wonderful job she is doing,,,she might think her writing style is cool/ok.
> The romantic crows might follow her future endeavors , but i am afraid the modernists might slip out the side door during halftime break.
> She would be more future productive if she laid the pen aside and immersed herself in Pettersson, Schnittke, Carter and Henze.
> Shake it up, then see what comes out in her creativity 20 years later.
> Because if she continues with this style, she may end up a 2nd rate Tchaikovsky.


Yeah right. At her next concert featuring Pettersson, Schnitte, Carter and Henze, the sound you might hear in the concert hall just before curtain-time could be crickets.


----------



## Torkelburger

DaveM said:


> Well, good for you. You copied the first definition that came up in Google, including pronunciation. If you look a little farther, you'll find the background of the true use of 'pastiche':
> _'Pastiche is a creative work that imitates another author or genre. It's a way of paying respect, or honor, to great works of the past. Pastiche differs from parody in that pastiche isn't making fun of the works it imitates.'_


Thank you for further proving my point that our use of "pastiche" is not snobbish or pejorative, by posting your definition. Thanks! I posted a definition that defined my use of the term as I use it when I write. It was convenient being first, but if you don't like it being the first, I'm sure there's another one like it later on in the page, sheesh.



> How do you know what she knows or not or what she's capable of doing or not if put to the challenge?


Because she would be the only child/pre-teen in the history of mankind capable of doing so? Besides, she has at least made statements showing her ignorance of modern music. Anyway, are you suggesting this pre-teen could write another Tristan, Mahler 6th, La Mer, etc.? Are you serious? Methinks you're taking your hero-worship just a wee-bit too far. Let's not go overboard. I'll just go out on a limb here and take the impossible belief that I would bet anything she couldn't do it and doesn't know the first thing how to do it. From what she has written so far, I'd say that's a safe bet. I don't need a video of her admitting it or whatever it is you're looking for as that is not an extraordinary claim to make and we are talking public opinions anyway, not a court of law.



> She's well past parroting just what she's been taught and she's writing and playing what resonates with her.


It's funny that there is no way for you to know this, yet you lecture me for making similar speculations. Alas, no, if you want me to believe that she is fully capable of writing music as complex as Tristan, La Mer, Rite of Spring, etc. but chooses to write her baby music, that is an extraordinary claim and I will need to see some evidence please. As it stands, I don't believe you.


----------



## Portamento

It's hard enough for composers her age to be putting _anything_ on a page, so encouragement is entirely appropriate.

This, however, is just being a dick:



DaveM said:


> Yeah right. At her next concert featuring Pettersson, Schnitte, Carter and Henze, the sound you might hear in the concert hall just before curtain-time could be crickets.


----------



## EdwardBast

DaveM said:


> How do you know what she knows or not or what she's capable of doing or not if put to the challenge? She didn't just start out yesterday. *She's well past parroting just what she's been taught and she's writing and playing what resonates with her.*


But should student composers that age be writing and playing what resonates with them? Is that pedagogically sound? I doubt it. IMO, it would be a great help if she had a composition/theory teacher pushing her to expand her vocabulary. Absolutely no reason she needs to get into 20thc techniques in the near future (once again, IMO), but organically expanding her skills by moving forward through the vocabulary of the 19thc seems like an obvious step.


----------



## DaveM

Portamento said:


> It's hard enough for composers her age to be putting _anything_ on a page, so encouragement is entirely appropriate.
> 
> This, however, is just being a dick:


Are you still in grade school?


----------



## DaveM

EdwardBast said:


> But should student composers that age be writing and playing what resonates with them? Is that pedagogically sound? I doubt it.


That is likely true for the average young person, but I'm not sure that what is ordinarily pedagogically sound applies to someone with a musical mind like this.



> IMO, it would be a great help if she had a composition/theory teacher pushing her to expand her vocabulary. Absolutely no reason she needs to get into 20thc techniques in the near future (once again, IMO), but organically expanding her skills by moving forward through the vocabulary of the 19thc seems like an obvious step.


Apparently, her family moved to a countryside area in England to be near a particular school of music (don't know the name) so expanding her vocabulary may be being addressed.


----------



## paulbest

Portamento said:


> It's hard enough for composers her age to be putting _anything_ on a page, so encouragement is entirely appropriate.
> 
> This, however, is just being a dick:


I read the post as truth. My beief is things are going backwards, Not forwards,. 
Ck out concerts worldwide. You might finda Carter work, perhaps 1 Schnittke on the 2019/2020 program, No pettersson, maybe 1 or 2 from Henze. 
Yet who do we find 100+ on the WW programs, Beethoven. 
The arts are dying. 
Crickets is all we will hear. 
I see mankind going backwards not forwards. 
With every passing year he appears more neanderthalish.
And you know its the truth.


----------



## DaveM

Torkelburger said:


> Anyway, are you suggesting this pre-teen could write another Tristan, Mahler 6th, La Mer, etc.? Are you serious? Methinks you're taking your hero-worship just a wee-bit too far. Let's not go overboard.
> 
> It's funny that there is no way for you to know this, yet you lecture me for making similar speculations. Alas, no, if you want me to believe that she is fully capable of writing music as complex as Tristan, La Mer, Rite of Spring, etc. but chooses to write her baby music, that is an extraordinary claim and I will need to see some evidence please. As it stands, I don't believe you.


So you have me suggesting she's ready to compose another Tristan or Mahler 6th. Let's review: In response to this:



Torkelburger said:


> ..If she was asked to write a pastiche of Stravinsky she wouldn't know what to do. Or even Brahms, Wagner, Mahler, Tchaikovsky, or Debussy for that matter. Those idioms are too complicated for a child. She is comfortable with what she has been taught, and she has been taught what you teach children...


I responded with this:



DaveM said:


> How do you know what she knows or not or what she's capable of doing or not if put to the challenge? She didn't just start out yesterday..


The fact that she has composed a piano concerto and violin concerto that are a pastiche of music of the early-mid 19th century does not imply that she has written another Beethoven or Mendelssohn concerto. Nor would her composing a pastiche of music of the composers you mention imply the equivalent.


----------



## KenOC

All this talk about "pedagogically sound" makes me think of poor Alma being driven by whips through the desicated halls of academia. Personally, I'm quite happy to let her compose and play whatever she likes, now and in the future. I'll listen, or I won't, as always.


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## paulbest

And we all wish The rising young star a long successful career, many options are open for this incredible talent.
Perhaps as extended as Livia Rev here at 90 year celebration of life.
Sure Clair De Lune might not be considered a difficult piece, yet you can not fault her performance , just amazing at 90 years old how she remembers the proper pauses, tempos, all the nuances. 
UNREAL.
Music starts at 1:32


----------



## Torkelburger

DaveM said:


> So you have me suggesting she's ready to compose another Tristan or Mahler 6th. Let's review: In response to this:
> 
> I responded with this:
> 
> The fact that she has composed a piano concerto and violin concerto that are a pastiche of music of the early-mid 19th century does not imply that she has written another Beethoven or Mendelssohn concerto. Nor would her composing a pastiche of music of the composers you mention imply the equivalent.


No, see, you kind of have it wrong there. You initially quoted my entire post, not a portion of it.

But good grief. You're really gonna make me spell it out, eh? Gonna play stupid? Fine, I'll play along--

Anyway, are you suggesting this pre-teen could write an opera using the complex vocabulary of mid-19th century Romanticism and chromaticism, on par in musical quality and craftmanship to the great Romantic opera composers?

No way in heck a child could do such a thing. You'd have to prove it to me. Besides, if she could do that and chooses not to, shame on her. I would like her even less than I already do! The baby music drivel she writes now, I believe. This new claim that she has full knowledge, capability, and mastery of all musical idioms ever invented (at 12 years old no less!)? No way, dude. I wasn't born yesterday, either.


----------



## Fabulin

Torkelburger said:


> Besides, she has at least made statements showing her ignorance of modern music.


Do you mean her _dislike _for modern music, or what?


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## DaveM

Torkelburger said:


> No, see, you kind of have it wrong there. You initially quoted my entire post, not a portion of it.
> 
> But good grief. You're really gonna make me spell it out, eh? Gonna play stupid? Fine, I'll play along--
> 
> Anyway, are you suggesting this pre-teen could write an opera using the complex vocabulary of mid-19th century Romanticism and chromaticism, on par in musical quality and craftmanship to the great Romantic opera composers?
> 
> No way in heck a child could do such a thing. You'd have to prove it to me. Besides, if she could do that and chooses not to, shame on her. I would like her even less than I already do! The baby music drivel she writes now, I believe. This new claim that she has full knowledge, capability, and mastery of all musical idioms ever invented (at 12 years old no less!)? No way, dude. I wasn't born yesterday, either.


You spend a lot of time railing against something that hasn't been said or implied. As far as a romantic opera goes, Deutscher's 2nd opera, Cinderella, was premiered by Zuban Mehta, 5 performances were sold out in one hour and Sony Classical recorded a performance on DVD, so someone seems to be enjoying it and some professionals seem to be taking it seriously. Does it rise to the level of the long-popular 19th century operas? Likely not. But I'm sure you'll respond with the claim that I'm saying it's another Die Walkure.


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## Phil loves classical

This violin concerto is definitely a step up from her piano concerto. Good for her. Her video promoting it was cringe-worthy to watch though. I'm with others who doubt that she really understands what not just 21st century music is about, but late 19th and 20th century. I'm not sure if it's her or her manager who is promoting the idea of shirking away 'ugly' music as a convenient excuse to write less complex music, as if less complex = beautiful. This work obviously has more complexity than the piano concerto though.


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## regenmusic

I just love listening to her positive tone talking about her works. The purity of outlook is infectious.


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## Larkenfield

I've heard Alma's Violin Concert three times now and have enjoyed it more each time. I suppose no one notices that she starts off with a quote from Bach's great Violin Chaconne — she's obviously been listening to and inspired by him — and she also quotes its beginning later. And of course, no one probably notices or appreciates that she wrote a fugue in the first movement and maybe some of you should try writing one some time... I love her sweetness of sound and her sincerity. Just watch — it may not be this concerto, but eventually one of her concertos is going to be picked up by a big name — I'd love to hear Hillary Hahn do one — and that will help put her on the map and she'll be taken more seriously by some of her doubters... I love listening to her and her music may sound like a pistache to others but what I hear is genuinely real with growing advanced harmonies and her own original themes... it's not just a reflex or the regurgitation of the old. I consider her a delight and the world is better off for her beneficent existence, whether her critics have anything positive to say about her or not... I also do not hear a "harshness" of sound in her playing and that's through audiophile headphones. I find her joyous, charming and expressive with much more to come.


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## paulbest

Fabulin said:


> Do you mean her _dislike _for modern music, or what?


she is too young to be rejecting anything. She can not have a opinion on composer/music, that no doubt she has not even heard yet. 
She is developing, I would not expect her to listen to/study Schoenberg, Berg, Henze, Schnittke, especially i hope she has no exposed her virgin ears to Pettersson. 
It is so obvious in her work, that her teachers have exposed her to the romantics, and the old forms, ONLY, and not anything Schnittkeian. 
Who knows she may become Henze greatest fan and look back at her puerile work here, and get a good chuckle at this early work. 
I hope she does become a Henze protege.


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## Larkenfield

I couldn't possibly imagine anything worse for her, especially Petterson and his nihilist and angonized view of life. If someone had a greater understanding of Deutscher, it's hard to imagine how anyone could possible suggest that it would be good for her, as if he would be a good influence. I do not believe that it works to try and make someone else into someone else's image of her and something she's not and will probably never be. Petterson is mostly one angony after another and I say this after recently hearing his Viola Concerto, full mostly of his usual grim misery. The only work I'd ever mention of his is his excellent 7th Symphony that has a ray of light in it and well worth hearing. Isn't it enough that she represents something beautiful, positive and constructive in life?


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## DaveM

Larkenfield said:


> I've heard Alma's Violin Concert three times now and have enjoyed it more each time. I suppose no one notices that she starts off with a quote from Bach's great Violin Chaconne - she's obviously been listening to and inspired by him - and she also quotes its beginning later. *And of course, no one probably notices or appreciates that she wrote a fugue in the first movement and maybe some of you should try writing one some time...*


Someone else did, but God bless you for noticing also. 



DaveM said:


> I was inspired by some of the above comments to listen to the violin concerto again. By itself, it obviously has limitations compared to the violin concerto repertoire, *but there are some inspired moments such as the fugal passage starting at about 6:30.* But what makes this work worth watching more than anything else is her playing.


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## Portamento

Larkenfield said:


> And of course, no one probably notices or appreciates that she wrote a fugue in the first movement and maybe some of you should try writing one some time...


Oh, so it's not right to (very mildly) criticize something you can't do yourself? I think you know the logical extension of that.



paulbest said:


> she is too young to be rejecting anything. She can not have a opinion on composer/music, that no doubt she has not even heard yet.


You actually touch on a good point here.


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## paulbest

Portamento said:


> You actually touch on a good point here.


well its in her best interest, and her moderators/teachers , well know , best to keep Alma as far away from anything which might *rock her boat*, = Schoenberg, Schnittke
I mean she has to go through the beaten paths of the classics/romantics. 
I guess in her late teens, she may explore whos who, whats what in the wide musical world. 
I know Hillary Hahn was a bit taken by surprised when she *discovered* the Schoenberg concerto...Yet instead of pairing the Schoenberg (her recording is quite good, if not exceptional, as is her usual), with say, The Berg concerto, or any other great mid/late 20th C masterpiece. 
Instead she has the schoenberg with,,,be right back,,,,with the Sibelius,,i have the cd, just could not recall which was the VC, as it is something i never care to listen to, if ever again in my,,,life.
I know she is performing the Sibelius past 5 years, and has years left on contracts world wide.
I am hoping we will see more mid/late 20TH C concertos from Hahn. No doubt she will record the Stravinsky, if she not already,,,another work, not interested. 
So if Alma hits on the wider range of modern music, then she find her true destiny. 
Hahn is conservative, and i doubt if she will record the great mid.late 20Th C concertos. 
Will Alma join the conservative forces, or will she reject the old beaten worn down , well trodden, (boring) paths of old masters. 
I mean do we really need another romantic recording of any work? 
As good as Hahn's Sibelius is, I always have Oistrakh's and others. 
Someone here, Josquin, has like 50 recordings,,other than Hillary Hahn.s.
I think hahn would make a great schnittke set, and Henze set as well. hahn should take on the 55 minute non stop Pettersson vc.
Packed all the way through with notes, no rest places as with Sibelius, that is to say, the Pettersson concerto is equivalent to like 3 maybe 4 Sibelius. 
Hahn probably has not heard the name Allan Pettersson , as yet. 
Or perhaps only recently, as Christian Lindberg is bringing world wide recognition to Pettersson's music past 2 years.


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## Aloevera

I watched an interview of Glenn Gould where they asked him why we composes in old fashion baroque music and he said thats the only way he can compose. I'm pretty sure that would be the response for just about every composer,unless it would be purely imitative so it would silly to make analysis in this respect.

As for Alma, from what I've seem, obviously shes more skilled that any of us here in the instrument. but fostering this ability, obviousally is not easy, because its at the end of the day less about skill and more about developing musical intuitions. And my theory is that this aspect is rarely developed amongst prodigies since they are praised more for grasping hard material easily that it becomes more difficult in attaining the level of the profound. Not saying she can't do it, but there is a major barrier that few prodigies reach. The challenge here is putting aside ones skill and not use it as a distraction in order to get to the bottom of things.


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## PlaySalieri

DaveM said:


> Well, good for you. You copied the first definition that came up in Google, including pronunciation. If you look a little farther, you'll find the background of the true use of 'pastiche':
> _'Pastiche is a creative work that imitates another author or genre. It's a way of paying respect, or honor, to great works of the past. Pastiche differs from parody in that pastiche isn't making fun of the works it imitates.'_
> 
> *How do you know what she knows *or not or what she's capable of doing or not if put to the challenge? She didn't just start out yesterday. She's well past parroting just what she's been taught and she's writing and playing what resonates with her.


An unfortunate aspect of being a performer - particularly on several instruments - is that it tends to consume all available time. This means there is very little time for listening and exploring repertoire. So Alma will be drawing on music that she has actually played. And since a violin student will probably be working on 1 concerto over a 3-6 month period - and 1 sonata - that does not amount to much music. It is possible she has been exposed to very little music and mainly from the baroque, classical and romantic eras that students tend to play. If she wants to be a composer - she will really need to drop the violin - forget about playing the piano to a really top level - get to know more repertoire - find a good conservatoire level teacher etc and start to explore new ground.

but she wont do that - as her parents will want her to remain a valuable box office draw which with all her talents she is at the moment.


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## PlaySalieri

DaveM said:


> Are you still in grade school?


are you and DavidA actually the same person?


----------



## KenOC

stomanek said:


> ...but she wont do that - as her parents will want her to remain a valuable box office draw which with all her talents she is at the moment.


Do you have any evidence at all...even an ounce...that she is being exploited by her parents? I really hope you're not posting this without good reason.


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## Guest

KenOC said:


> Do you have any evidence at all...even an ounce...that she is being exploited by her parents? I really hope you're not posting this without good reason.


Are you suggesting then that her parents _don't _want her to be a box office draw?


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## PlaySalieri

KenOC said:


> Do you have any evidence at all...even an ounce...that she is being exploited by her parents? I really hope you're not posting this without good reason.


Her parents are making money out of Alma - she's a child - what do you call that?

Leopold exploited little Mozart. so?


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## PlaySalieri

I see that Alma is having violin tuition at the Menuhin school - that makes sense as she plays well - they have two first rate Russian tutors there - one of them taught Benedetti and other prize winners.

They do have some good visiting composition teachers there too and hopefully she is in good hands.


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## DaveM

stomanek said:


> I see that Alma is having violin tuition at the Menuhin school - that makes sense as she plays well - they have two first rate Russian tutors there - one of them taught Benedetti and other prize winners.
> 
> They do have some good visiting composition teachers there too and hopefully she is in good hands.


Sounds to me like her parents are doing their best to do whatever is necessary to get her the best education and support the talent of a rather amazing prodigy -all of which costs money- rather than the unsubstantiated exploitation premise.


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## PlaySalieri

DaveM said:


> Sounds to me like her parents are doing their best to do whatever is necessary to get her the best education and support the talent of a rather amazing prodigy -all of which costs money- rather than the unsubstantiated exploitation premise.


Her Cds are available on amazon and she plays in front of sell out crowds

who do you think is getting all the proceeds?

exploitation isnt just about money

her parents are both musicians of no particular note

In my view when you put a child in the public eye to that extent it is exploitation

many will benefit - but what is best for the child?


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## PlaySalieri

This is topical

https://www.prospectmagazine.co.uk/magazine/little-maestros-the-strange-world-of-the-child-prodigy


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## paulbest

Would be hilarious if one day after she turns 18 or there about, her parents notice , alarming changes in Alma's musical, taste and selections for past time listening....they stumble across music on her comp, as she has head phones,,so when she's out, they slyly look over whats playing in her favs...They plug in the comp speakers, and find out its mostly, 
,,,Pettersson and Schnittke
Pettersson may come across like Death Metal Classical Music,, ,,at least to the ears of baroque /classical/romantic *loving* (manipulating, /controlling) parents..as they gasp in horror that they *baby*/ tender sensibilities is now being ruin by ,,,these sounds...
For this reason Vienna and Berlin could never allow Pettersson within their halls of , *delications, purity, devotions of our most beloved and forever cherished romantics*
Speaking of The Royal Concert halls. 
Sorry Schnittke also , not allowed. 
Alma dumps the whole nice tidy box ready made for her and goes into the bizzae world of Henze, berg and other late 20Th C masters. 
But I doubt it, she has the appearance of a gentle soul, and programed to the status quo composers, the romantics/early classics. 
Of course that is her *choice*.

Hahn speaks of her *amazing discovery of Schoenberg*. 
She , for some reason, paired the recording with sibelius. 
Better choice would have been Sibelius with ,,,well now i see why,,,which concerto,,maybe Hindemith.s VC,,and conveniently place Schoenberg with the Berg. 
I just see the Sibelius and Schoenberg as a odd joining. 
I know what she was up to, trying to bring the romantic crowds to at least try new music, *you might just come around and like it*. 
No, it looks like all appearances that Alma will remain within the romantic/early music style for quite some time,,and go on to be a above average musician.


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## Guest

DaveM said:


> the unsubstantiated exploitation premise.


I'm not sure it's 'unsubstantiated'. It rather depends on the spin on the word 'exploit', which doesn't have to be interpreted as a negative. There is ample evidence that Alma's parents want Alma to gain maximum benefit from her talent, and that includes taking opportunities to play before a paying audience. Look on her Facebook and you'll see a notice telling us about sold out concerts, and future opportunities to pay to see her.

https://www.facebook.com/AlmaDeutscher/

It remains to be seen whether what they are doing is, in the long term, to Alma's benefit, or more to theirs.


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## Guest

stomanek said:


> This is topical
> 
> https://www.prospectmagazine.co.uk/magazine/little-maestros-the-strange-world-of-the-child-prodigy


I note the caption under one of the photos:



> *Too much, too young: Andre Agassi, Michael Jackson and Charlotte Church all struggled to cope with adult life*


Lots of children who aren't prodigies struggle to cope with adult life. I sometimes struggle too, though mercifully I'm not in the media as I'm a nobody. The fact that their struggles are played out in public view doesn't mean that being a prodigy has caused their struggle.


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## DavidA

stomanek said:


> This is topical
> 
> https://www.prospectmagazine.co.uk/magazine/little-maestros-the-strange-world-of-the-child-prodigy


Yes some good points. I prefer the low level approach taken by Benjamin Grosvenor's parents and sponsors who after his appearance in BBC Young Musician kept him at a pretty low level until he had matured a bit. Of course, they had the 'advantage' that he wasn't a cute little girl who made good cover for the tabloids. Interesting now Lang Lang says he is doing a lot of things he missed while a teenager. He said in interview when asked if he was resentful about his father, "No because I am successful. If I hadn't have been I would have hated him."


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## DavidA

MacLeod said:


> I note the caption under one of the photos:
> 
> Lots of children who aren't prodigies *struggle to cope with adult life.* I sometimes struggle too, though mercifully I'm not in the media as I'm a nobody. The fact that their struggles are played out in public view doesn't mean that being a prodigy has caused their struggle.


As someone once said: "Life wasn't intended to be easy!"


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## paulbest

At the moment I do not have many,,,wait,,actually I have no women composers represented in my collection...I will certainly buy Allma's works, if she can continue where others left off. 
Competition is fierce,,,there is a new composer every day hoping for a break. Until that time , when she matures and brings us her masterpieces, all we can do is ,,wait. btw if the parents attempt too much exploitation at a early age, with exciting money paying crowds for gain and profit,,that may backfire, as her talents , may dry up late teens. IMHO she came out too early in the spot light. 
Look at 2 famous and very successful conductors, Lief Segerstam and Pierre Boulez. Both great conductors and very successful in that role. Both went on to become composers as well. 
Though neither 's works could be considered as great as their conducting careers. 

Boulez has a small devoted fan base, a group which is a bit sensitive to any criticism of their fav late modern composer. 
Segerstam has written like over 100 symphonies. I've sat through a YT upload on one of his symphonies,,,I was like the crowd at the end,,,abit slow for applause. I mean its interesting music, but not sure what to make of it. 
Alma may run into this same grey area of talent. Good/interesting, but no cigar.


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## paulbest

Oh so I see, 60 Minutes/Carnegie Hall, 
Well this day in age is all about the money factor, So why not, evangelical preachers have no conflicts about making money, capitalizing in their endeavors. 
Commercialization of Alma's early, too early-to-tell talents, is enough for me to skip over any of her later cds. 
So Lang lang has become successful, nothing in my collection of Lang Lang. 
I just do not see his cds offering anything which has not already been recorded, in a new unique way. Now Hillary hahn has achieved true success. But can she sustain this success? 
Will she break out the romantic bubble and go on to explore modern masterpieces?
I know she feels a bit trapped, as she mentions ina drudging manner,,*I still have 5 more years on my Sibelius contracts to complete*. That;s about 10 years of her Sibelius circuit. 
She has limited freedom to do what she wants, for her commitments to her contracts. . 
Thus her Sibelius VC, she brings in new ideas. ,,,guess to keep it interesting to her..., as she has played in upteen times. She begins to have fun with it, and play around, Which is OK, its not a concerto i am interested it, so for me its no big deal how she decides to play it.


----------



## Larkenfield

stomanek said:


> Her parents are making money out of Alma - she's a child - what do you call that?
> 
> Leopold exploited little Mozart. so?


 Her parents aren't a Leopold Mozart. I've seen no evidence to support that. Some of you apparently just _want_ there to be problems of exploitation. For those who are observant, it should be obvious that she's having the time of her life. That she is being paid for her talent does not mean she is being exploited. But of course lessons cost, don't they?... There are no signs of stress in her face or her body that I've seen over the last five years, and none before that. She appears to be an essentially well-adjusted, happy and creatively child, though no one's life is entirely free of pressures, challenge and stress because it's the human condition. And I don't believe she's putting on a happy face just for the publicity. She appears to be doing exactly what she wants to do creatively and is receiving the support for it, including from someone like Thomas Hampson in the recording of her Christmas song. Has anyone heard it? Probably not. It's charming and Hampson calls her a prodigy. Smiling faces between them. She does not appear to be under stress; she's clearly _enjoying_ herself whether others prefer to view her as an exploited victim or not. She's in one of the most enviable positions of any composer on the planet and, at least so far, being offered opportunities and wisely taking advantage of them.


----------



## PlaySalieri

DavidA said:


> Yes some good points. I prefer the low level approach taken by Benjamin Grosvenor's parents and sponsors who after his appearance in BBC Young Musician kept him at a pretty low level until he had matured a bit. Of course, they had the 'advantage' that he wasn't a cute little girl who made good cover for the tabloids. Interesting now Lang Lang says he is doing a lot of things he missed while a teenager. He said in interview when asked if he was resentful about his father,* "No because I am successful. If I hadn't have been I would have hated him.*"


that statement doesnt really recommend him as a father though does it

he told lang lang to kill himself if he cant succeed


----------



## PlaySalieri

Larkenfield said:


> Her parents aren't a Leopold Mozart. I've seen no evidence to support that. Some of you apparently just want there to be problems of exploitation. For those who are observant, it should be obvious that she's having the time of her life. That she is being paid for her talent does not mean she is being exploited. But of course lessons cost, don't they? There are no signs of stress in her face or her body that I've seen over the last five years, and none before that. She appears to be an essentially well-adjusted, happy and creatively child, though no one's life is entirely free of pressures, challenged and stress because it's the human condition. And I don't believe she's putting on a happy face just for the publicity. She appears to be doing exactly what she wants to do creatively and is receiving the support for it, include including from someone like Thomas Hampson in the recording of her Christmas song. Has anyone heard it? Probably not. It's charming and Hampson calls her a prodigy. Smiling faces between them.


regardless of how it looks to the observer - we have no idea what goes on in the household

all stakeholders will want to keep this circus running as long as they can regardless


----------



## PlaySalieri

paulbest said:


> Oh so I see, 60 Minutes/Carnegie Hall,
> Well this day in age is all about the money factor, So why not, evangelical preachers have no conflicts about making money, capitalizing in their endeavors.
> Commercialization of Alma's early, too early-to-tell talents, is enough for me to skip over any of her later cds.
> So Lang lang has become successful, nothing in my collection of Lang Lang.
> I just do not see his cds offering anything which has not already been recorded, in a new unique way. Now Hillary hahn has achieved true success. But can she sustain this success?
> Will she break out the romantic bubble and go on to explore modern masterpieces?
> I know she feels a bit trapped, as she mentions ina drudging manner,,*I still have 5 more years on my Sibelius contracts to complete*. That;s about 10 years of her Sibelius circuit.
> She has limited freedom to do what she wants, for her commitments to her contracts. .
> Thus her Sibelius VC, she brings in new ideas. ,,,guess to keep it interesting to her..., as she has played in upteen times. She begins to have fun with it, and play around, Which is OK, its not a concerto i am interested it, so for me its no big deal how she decides to play it.


Lang Lang has a catchy name - had he had an unpronounceable name he would likely not be so well known

he also does a nice karate chop and kick before he plays - nice gimmick

its enough to bring in the money


----------



## Guest

Larkenfield said:


> Some of you apparently just want there to be problems of exploitation.


How many, and which of us _want_? None that I've read here.


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## Enthusiast

Larkenfield said:


> Her parents aren't a Leopold Mozart. I've seen no evidence to support that. Some of you apparently just _want_ there to be problems of exploitation. For those who are observant, it should be obvious that she's having the time of her life. That she is being paid for her talent does not mean she is being exploited. But of course lessons cost, don't they?... There are no signs of stress in her face or her body that I've seen over the last five years, and none before that. She appears to be an essentially well-adjusted, happy and creatively child, though no one's life is entirely free of pressures, challenged and stress because it's the human condition. And I don't believe she's putting on a happy face just for the publicity. She appears to be doing exactly what she wants to do creatively and is receiving the support for it, including from someone like Thomas Hampson in the recording of her Christmas song. Has anyone heard it? Probably not. It's charming and Hampson calls her a prodigy. Smiling faces between them. She does not appear to be under stress; she's clearly _enjoying_ herself whether others prefer to view her as an exploited victim or not. She's in one of the most enviable positions of any composer on the planet and, at least so far, being offered opportunities and wisely taking advantage of them.


For me the concern is not so much exploitation (which I agree is unproven but _could _be there) but the damage that too much public adulation - after all she is being presented as if she were already world class - risks damaging her development as a person and an artist. But we humans can be very resilient and can thrive despite all sorts of circumstances. I just feel that talent needs nurturing rather than exhibiting as if it had already flowered.


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## paulbest

stomanek said:


> Lang Lang has a catchy name - had he had an unpronounceable name he would likely not be so well known
> 
> he also does a nice karate chop and kick before he plays - nice gimmick
> 
> its enough to bring in the money


OK so he gives you your moneys worth at his shows. 
Just great. 
I heard some of his play on the FM radio the other day, maybe the Tchaikovsky 1. 
It was OK, I really did not have interest, lets say it had nothing on Cliburn's famous Kondrashin/Moscow LP we all swore was the greatest ever recording. 
Since that time I am sure there has been another 50-100 recordings. 
Lang Lang ranks somewhere in the 100+ recordings. 
The line, *had my father not pushed me to success...* a bit odd. Its the old asian idea, success at all/any costs. 
This idea of child prodigy /Carnegie Hall, smells sort of like the circus of old times, which highlighted people with abnormalities and strong men showcasing feats of strength. 
Sensationalism always sells


----------



## paulbest

Enthusiast said:


> For me the concern is not so much exploitation (which I agree is unproven but _could _be there) but the damage that too much public adulation - after all she is being presented as if she were already world class - risks damaging her development as a person and an artist. But we humans can be very resilient and can thrive despite all sorts of circumstances. I just feel that talent needs nurturing rather than exhibiting as if it had already flowered.


Well how many 12 yr olds can write a concerto and play the violin to the work?
So 60 Minutes got the story, called the parents, and maybe they thought it over, *no harm done, yeah lets do it,,*, Carnegie sees opportunity to host a show and ,,,concert sells out in 24 hrs, = nice profits. 
So its a win/win/win for everyone. 
Whats wrong with that?
Sensationalism sells. 
Yet we who know music, have this inkling , poor Alma might be affected by this early stardom and making cash,,,so as to become a bad influence later on. 
Others are amazed and so buys a ticket, She would probably sell out in every major USA city, europe might not be so gullible. 
As i say I am not as surprised as some here on TC. I have seen so many YT uploads featuring young girls playing guitar riffs, exactly like our old great jammers. They don't miss a note. 
Its a phenomenon of these times. 
Its possible her parents felt, its better to collect the golden eggs while the goose is laying,. ,,,who knows maybe later on the goose stops laying golden and only produces normal everyday eggs. 
There are people in major US cities with money and have nothing better to do than to go see a child prodigy. Its just the crazy times we live in. 
Let a Pettersson sym come to town, ticket sales might hardly break even, if the weathers bad. 
No how about this, Pettersson sym announced a few days before Alma's concert, shows being on the same date.
The Pettersson sym would experience very low sales. partly due to Alma's *amazing talents*.


----------



## Bigbang

I have not read all the posts on this thread but I am curious about the bias/perception with those already familiar with many of the most popular works. So I wonder what would be the results if say experiment, blind, to who is the composer? So someone goes to the street and gets a random sample of people who know nothing of classical music and therefore cannot identify Mozart from Beethoven. And you get them to pledge to listen to your cd's/medium of choice with no identifier on them and ask them to listen to the music of various artists and after several hearings straight through at their leisure, the participants rate the music in order of preference. So Alma Deutscher works for violin/piano would be up against other composers selected pieces. Of course what pieces and how to pick based on their age/maturity at the time they wrote the composition.

So I wonder in a blind hearing what novices who know no music in classical era and are not trained in music (obviously). Naturally, the listeners would not cheat and google the samples the pieces. 

Wonder how she would fare then?


----------



## PlaySalieri

Bigbang said:


> I have not read all the posts on this thread but I am curious about the bias/perception with those already familiar with many of the most popular works. So I wonder what would be the results if say experiment, blind, to who is the composer? So someone goes to the street and gets a random sample of people who know nothing of classical music and therefore cannot identify Mozart from Beethoven. And you get them to pledge to listen to your cd's/medium of choice with no identifier on them and ask them to listen to the music of various artists and after several hearings straight through at their leisure, the participants rate the music in order of preference. So Alma Deutscher works for violin/piano would be up against other composers selected pieces. Of course what pieces and how to pick based on their age/maturity at the time they wrote the composition.
> 
> So I wonder in a blind hearing what novices who know no music in classical era and are not trained in music (obviously). Naturally, the listeners would not cheat and google the samples the pieces.
> 
> Wonder how she would fare then?


Hmmm - do you think even complete newbies to classical music are going to choose alma's piece over the 4 seasons, Bruch, Mendelssohn

come on


----------



## paulbest

No I think what the poster is implying is works of a similar quality. 
There are 10K+ composers writing music today. So take 5 works along with Alma's. Could we determine which is this child wonder and which are from more mature composers. 
Most composers are not writing in neo classical style, so that would give her away.
CM is mainly a romantic crowd. 
We strict moderns only make up like 25%/less of the field of community. 
This is why she is a star, the romantic crowds are also the older crowds and they have cash. 
Modernists like myself are not at all amused by her composition. 
Her playing is interesting to watch for sure, as to Her work, , well lets say i cast my vote. 
Had she written in a modern style, she would have my vote.


----------



## Bigbang

No but again, age and style is a factor though. I am not judging her and would not listen to her music but rather making a point of bias. And if newbies pick the older music over hers then so be it. I understand she writes in the style of 18th century if I recall from 60 minutes. Baroque would not be a good fit to sample.


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## PlaySalieri

paulbest said:


> No I think what the poster is implying is works of a similar quality.
> There are 10K+ composers writing music today. So take 5 works along with Alma's. Could we determine which is this child wonder and which are from more mature composers.
> Most composers are not writing in neo classical style, so that would give her away.
> *CM is mainly a romantic crowd. *
> We strict moderns only make up like 25%/less of the field of community.
> This is why she is a star, the romantic crowds are also the older crowds and they have cash.
> Modernists like myself are not at all amused by her composition.
> Her playing is interesting to watch for sure, as to Her work, , well lets say i cast my vote.
> Had she written in a modern style, she would have my vote.


yes but I suspect those who are PAYING (key word please note) to listen to her are the ignorant majority of non serious listeners

that's gonna sound arrogant - but so be it


----------



## paulbest

stomanek said:


> yes but I suspect those who are PAYING (key word please note) to listen to her are the ignorant majority of non serious listeners
> 
> that's gonna sound arrogant - but so be it


Well sure, I'd bet most orchestral members in every US orch, most might not even heard the name Allan Pettersson as yet. 
Obviously all have heard of Schnittke, but i seriously doubt Schnittke is well represented in their cd collections. 
Henze , perhaps 1/2 of orch members heard the name, again not well represented in their collections,
The general public in NYC, these are the Tchaikovsky/Verdi/Beethoven/Mahler/Brahms style of listeners .
I bet 100% of attendees at Alma's Carnegie concert, if given a survey card, well , lets say 90,,no make that 100% would check *I am a romantic music fan*. 
The Modernist box, might,,,,no would have zero votes cked.
We don't go to these types of display, unless Alma' scored something with a modern flare. 
And if she asked the audience are you applauding due to mt young age, or you really love my composition. 
*Oh honey we LOVE adore your music*. 
I know who goes to these types of events. 
Those who think Lang Lang is a really accomplished pianist.

Hillary Hahn sold out 4 Chicago appearances, Sibelius VC, , Now had Pettersson sym been across town on any 1 given night, the orchestra would be playing for the doormen. 
Sensationalism sells. Its the american way.


----------



## Bigbang

stomanek said:


> yes but I suspect those who are PAYING (key word please note) to listen to her are the ignorant majority of non serious listeners
> 
> that's gonna sound arrogant - but so be it


But I wonder how many paying for concerts at Carnegie hall and around the country have hundreds or thousands of cds in their collection and know basic facts of classical music history....gonna sound conceited but so be it


----------



## PlaySalieri

Bigbang said:


> But I wonder how many paying for concerts at Carnegie hall and around the country have hundreds or thousands of cds in their collection and know basic facts of classical music history....gonna sound conceited but so be it


probably correct - 50%+ of audiences at big name concerts probably would fit into the lets go and hear this prodigy category of listener.


----------



## PlaySalieri

paulbest said:


> Well sure, I'd bet most orchestral members in every US orch, most might not even heard the name Allan Pettersson as yet.
> Obviously all have heard of Schnittke, but i seriously doubt Schnittke is well represented in their cd collections.
> Henze , perhaps 1/2 of orch members heard the name, again not well represented in their collections,
> The general public in NYC, these are the Tchaikovsky/Verdi/Beethoven/Mahler/Brahms style of listeners .
> I bet 100% of attendees at Alma's Carnegie concert, if given a survey card, well , lets say 90,,no make that 100% would check *I am a romantic music fan*.
> The Modernist box, might,,,,no would have zero votes cked.
> We don't go to these types of display, unless Alma' scored something with a modern flare.
> And if she asked the audience are you applauding due to mt young age, or you really love my composition.
> *Oh honey we LOVE adore your music*.
> I know who goes to these types of events.
> Those who think Lang Lang is a really accomplished pianist.
> 
> Hillary Hahn sold out 4 Chicago appearances, Sibelius VC, , Now had Pettersson sym been across town on any 1 given night, the orchestra would be playing for the doormen.
> Sensationalism sells. Its the american way.


or maybe Sibelius VC is just better than any modern piece


----------



## paulbest

I might disagree, I bet more attended for the Hillary Hahn fame than for Sibelius. 
I use to adore that VC, so much,,,now i hate it.


----------



## Enthusiast

^ You know, Paul, if you were to give up the heroes and villains approach to music you wouldn't have to post the same things again and again. You might have quite a number of violinists who you like and lots of composers. You might also discover that your current favourites are not so close to the pinnacle as you imagine!


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## Torkelburger

DaveM said:


> You spend a lot of time railing against something that hasn't been said or implied.


Either she has the capability to write in any musical idiom or she doesn't. That is the subject I brought up in post #83. There are only two options. I say she can't, and you challenged my assessment. Naturally, I asked if you think she could. That is a logical question to ask. But if you don't believe one, you must defend the other. But go ahead and play the ambivalent game to try and appear smart.

The whole thing about "resonating" with the idiom she writes sure seems as though you are saying she is capable of mastering other idioms but has just chosen to write in the one out of the many that speaks to her. If you're not saying that, then she is just resonating with the only thing she knows and, well, that is _my_ position and I don't see what you're babbling on about.


----------



## DaveM

Torkelburger said:


> Either she has the capability to write in any musical idiom or she doesn't. That is the subject I brought up in post #83. There are only two options. I say she can't, and you challenged my assessment. Naturally, I asked if you think she could. That is a logical question to ask. But if you don't believe one, you must defend the other. But go ahead and play the ambivalent game to try and appear smart.
> 
> The whole thing about "resonating" with the idiom she writes sure seems as though you are saying she is capable of mastering other idioms but has just chosen to write in the one out of the many that speaks to her. If you're not saying that, then she is just resonating with the only thing she knows and, well, that is _my_ position *and I don't see what you're babbling on about.*


I understand that it is hard for you to comprehend it.


----------



## Torkelburger

DaveM said:


> I understand that it is hard for you to comprehend it.


Ah, just more babbling. I can see why you're attracted to childish things. Does it bother you to not have the last word? Are you five?


----------



## paulbest

look facts are, its not every day one can watch a child prodigy play her own composition at age 12. 
This is why folks bought a ticket. 
None bought a ticket because she plays like David Oistrakh, nor did she write a VC like say,,,who ever,,,its only out of amazement, *I just can't believe it* sort of thing. 
Americans love sensationalism. 
Besides how many seats are we talking about 5K? 
Plus tickets were priced reasonably I'm sure. 
Its a great evening out on a budget, for a show that might not come again for quite some time,,add it all up, SOLD OUT. 
Its not a event you or I would attend.


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## mmsbls

Please keep the content of posts focused on Alma Deutscher rather than each other.


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## DaveM

Listen to her self-composed cadenza at 6:16. This is a 10 year old (at the time of this performance)!


----------



## Guest

Re the OP and posts thereafter: pure circus. 
Give me 500g of "Made-in-Salzburg-Mozart-chocolates" and a 150g "real" Wiener schnitzel. 
Off you go. Try the same ***** transposed to D minor, it'll probably go down better.


----------



## Larkenfield

DaveM said:


> Listen to her self-composed cadenza at 6:16. This is a 10 year old (at the time of this performance)!


Thank you for posted this because I haven't heard it before. Wonderful cadenza. I thought it was brilliant and even Mozart himself would have been proud. How many adult performers, including the greatest, ever write their own cadenzas? At the moment I can't think of one. They don't have the interest or ability... I've never seen her other than completely relaxed when performing, like there is no other place in the world she would rather be and she feels completely at home. Such poise as a young performer... and an obvious prodigy who appears to be having the time of her life. I can easily imagine she will continue to fill the concert halls and bring forth new works that the public will be eager to hear. But then, new works from composers were once the norm and what the public expected or demanded, and that cycle seems to be coming around again as a breath of fresh air, regardless of whatever idiom she chooses. I think I'll check out her own hand-crafted cadenza again!


----------



## DaveM

Larkenfield said:


> Thank you for posted this because I haven't heard it before. Wonderful cadenza. I thought it was brilliant and even Mozart himself would have been proud. How many adult performers, including the greatest, ever write their own cadenzas? Very few. They don't have the interest or ability. I've never seen her other than completely relaxed when performing, like there is no other place in the world she would rather be and she feels completetly at home. Such poise as a young performer... and an obvious prodigy who appears to be having the time of her life. I can easily imagine she will continue to fill the concert halls and bring forth new works that the public will be eager to hear. But then, new works from composers were once the norm and what the public expected or demanded, and that cycle seems to be coming around again as a breath of fresh air, regardless of whatever idiom she chooses. I think I'll check out her own hand-crafted cadenza again!


It's an impressive cadenza. There's no sense that it is dumbed down for a less experienced age level. In fact, if it was played by and mistakenly attributed to one of the top Mozart recording artists, I doubt that anyone would know the difference. Watching this kid play makes me wish I had had some Mozart fairy dust sprinkled on me when I was young.


----------



## PlaySalieri

Larkenfield said:


> Thank you for posted this because I haven't heard it before. Wonderful cadenza. I thought it was brilliant and even Mozart himself would have been proud. *How many adult performers, including the greatest, ever write their own cadenzas? Very few. They don't have the interest or ability.* I've never seen her other than completely relaxed when performing, like there is no other place in the world she would rather be and she feels completetly at home. Such poise as a young performer... and an obvious prodigy who appears to be having the time of her life. I can easily imagine she will continue to fill the concert halls and bring forth new works that the public will be eager to hear. But then, new works from composers were once the norm and what the public expected or demanded, and that cycle seems to be coming around again as a breath of fresh air, regardless of whatever idiom she chooses. I think I'll check out her own hand-crafted cadenza again!


Thats not really true. Performers tend to select the best cadenza available - and that tends to be an established cadenza, rather than composing what would be - though a credible effort - something inferior. They also most likely don't have the time. They would have the ability if they have been through a Bmus and majoring in piano.


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## DaveM

I don’t think anyone has any way of knowing what the cadenza-writing skill would be of any one of the current top piano artists to the point of assuming it would be ‘something inferior’.


----------



## Razumovskymas

DaveM said:


> Listen to her self-composed cadenza at 6:16. This is a 10 year old (at the time of this performance)!


How can this not put a big smile on your face? At least when you're not the kind of bore that doesn't appreciate Mozart.


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## PlaySalieri

DaveM said:


> I don't think anyone has any way of knowing what the cadenza-writing skill would be of any one of the current top piano artists to the point of assuming it would be 'something inferior'.


ok you got me there - we dont know for certain it would be inferior - who knows - maybe all the top pianists can write a better cadenza for Mozart's K466 than Beethoven

My point is that we cant assume - as Larkenfield does - that professional pianists either have not the ability or interest. What I am saying is it is probably a question of time and availability of existing quality cadenzas.


----------



## paulbest

Lets put things in perspective, Sure Miss Alma is 1 in a million child prodigies , plays numerous instruments , with some distinction, and has ability to compose music.
*** Double genius***
She has to make a decision which will it be, piano or violin or composing,,,,. and what this end result is , hard to say, Compositional wise, it will more than likely be neo classical,,which may be great for back ground to movies, soap operas, etc. She will find employment no doubt, as she has talents. But her compositions will be conservative, which may interest some, but not me.
Her piano and violin are both OK, surely above average, but i would not say exceptional.
I can find other YT uploads with asian youths playing the piano quite good, if not superior to Alma's talents. 
I mean this is early Mozart, written by a youth and so not very complex key board for a child prodigy like Alma. 
Her cadenza i like alot, her level of playing is good, but not exceptional. 
She could sell out concert halls world wide, she will be successful thats for sure. 
She will suffer no financial issues , like other youths struggling to become concert pianists. 
later on when asked who were her 3 major influences among all composers?*
*oh thats easy, Bach, Mozart and Beethoven*. 
There you go. 
But then of course every major composer might include these 3 as well. 
Yet Alma will not experience the sufferings as has Shostakovich, and many others early 20th C. 
She lives a pampered life, which usually is not the ideal environment for creative writing in music.


----------



## PlaySalieri

paulbest said:


> Lets put things in perspective, Sure Miss Alma is 1 in a million child prodigies , plays numerous instruments , with some distinction, and has ability to compose music.
> *** Double genius***
> She has to make a decision which will it be, piano or violin or composing,,,,. and what this end result is , hard to say, Compositional wise, it will more than likely be neo classical,,which may be great for back ground to movies, soap operas, etc. She will find employment no doubt, as she has talents. But her compositions will be conservative, which may interest some, but not me.
> Her piano and violin are both OK, surely above average, but i would not say exceptional.
> I can find other YT uploads with asian youths playing the piano quite good, if not superior to Alma's talents.
> I mean this is early Mozart, written by a youth and so not very complex key board for a child prodigy like Alma.
> Her cadenza i like alot, her level of playing is good, but not exceptional.
> She could sell out concert halls world wide, she will be successful thats for sure.
> She will suffer no financial issues , like other youths struggling to become concert pianists.
> later on when asked who were her 3 major influences among all composers?*
> *oh thats easy, Bach, Mozart and Beethoven*.
> There you go.
> But then of course every major composer might include these 3 as well.
> Yet Alma will not experience the sufferings as has Shostakovich, and many others early 20th C.
> She lives a pampered life, which usually is not the ideal environment for creative writing in music.


Its a tough one - sometimes - the more talents one has - the less chance of succeeding. Sooner or later you must choose your speciality. As paul says - for instrumental - the competition is insane - nobody can compete with the asians who win all the competitions - who else will practice 12 hours per day and achieve perfection on every note - only the asians will put their children through this. Even among western artists the standards are exceptional. And these are all musicians who focus on one instrument. Alma plays 2 and composes - she sings too. I would say there is virtually no chance of her becoming a concert soloist except at local level - the competition is already too far ahead.

That probably leaves just composition - an interest that would allow her to continue putting in reasonable practice in piano and violin - to keep her standards up for performing her own works.


----------



## Larkenfield

stomanek said:


> thats not really true. Performers tend to select the best cadenza available - and that tends to be an established cadenza, rather than composing what would be - though a credible effort - something inferior. They also most likely don't have the time. They would have the ability if they have been through a bmus and majoring in piano.


Yes, pianists normally play a cadenza written by someone else - that's the point I was making and not as something favorable - not original by themselves. I doubt if it's a time retraint but a talent restraint. Alma wrote her own very skilled and brilliant cadenza and played it equally well. That is not the norm by any stretch of the imagination for most pianists. Most have not written their own cadenzas... and that's often what's so tedious and precdicatable about them, regardless of their interpretive abilities, when the audience might prefer to be surprised every once in awhile. One of things that has been missing from the concert halls is the composer/pianist, like a Chopin, Brahms, Rachmaninoff and perhaps a few others. Did Rubinstein, Brendel, or Horowitz write theirs? It's highly doubtful and how many years did they perform? The composer/virtuoso became virtually extinct and now there is a new one of the horizon by the name of Alma Deutscher and I feel strongly that she holds great promise and her presence should be celebrated as something miraculous in the concert halls that hasn't been witnessed in years. Who else besides her is there? Maybe someone else is out there but I'm unable to think of a one. She wrote her OWN cadenza and played it beautifully.


----------



## PlaySalieri

Larkenfield said:


> Yes, pianists normally play a cadenza written by someone else - that's the point I was making and not as something favorable - not original by themselves. I doubt if it's a time retraint but a talent restraint. Alma wrote her own very skilled and brilliant cadenza and played it equally well. That is not the norm by any stretch of the imagination for most pianists. Most have not written their own cadenzas... and that's often what's so tedious and precdicatable about them, regardless of their interpretive abilities, when the audience might prefer to be surprised every once in awhile. One of things that has been missing from the concert halls is the composer/pianist, like a Chopin, Brahms, Rachmaninoff and perhaps a few others. Did Rubinstein, Brendel, or Horowitz write theirs? It's highly doubtful and how many years did they perform? The composer/virtuoso became virtually extinct and now there is a new one of the horizon by the name of Alma Deutscher and I feel strongly that she holds great promise and her presence should be celebrated as something miraculous in the concert halls that hasn't been witnessed in years. Who else besides her is there? Maybe someone else is out there but I'm unable to think of a one. She wrote her OWN cadenza and played it beautifully.


So you think Alma has more knowledge than a pianist who has done a Bmus and masters performance. Many concert pianists also compose so I really think you are getting a bit carried away claiming they dont have the ability to compose a cadenza.

If you knew how much practice a concert pianist has to do you would not be surprised that they play existing cadenzas.

Alma is home educated - plays few concerts compared with a pro pianist - so has the time and probably thought it would be a cool thing to do.


----------



## paulbest

Yes , right now she is proving to be a exceptional artist. , Yet the real challenges await her, At age 20, she will have to perform at concert level, 
I did not note either her superior violin nor pianism. Nothing that would tell me she is headed for a career as has Hillary Hahn. 
Her composition was mild and sedate. 
Perhaps her parents better milk the cow as often and best efforts , ya never know when the cow will stop giving the cream. 
The golden goose might not always be laying golden eggs ,,


----------



## paulbest

Stomanek and i seem to be on the same page,,as he posts, mine backs his, , his backs up mine,,nearly same time posting....we are in sync. 
We are not in any way attacking the young wonderous abilities , We are only keeping these things in a wider perspective. 
No harm done. 
So will she be a concert pianist, a concert violinist , or a composer?


----------



## PlaySalieri

Larkenfield said:


> Yes, pianists normally play a cadenza written by someone else - that's the point I was making and not as something favorable - not original by themselves. I doubt if it's a time retraint but a talent restraint. Alma wrote her own very skilled and brilliant cadenza and played it equally well. That is not the norm by any stretch of the imagination for most pianists. Most have not written their own cadenzas... and that's often what's so tedious and precdicatable about them, regardless of their interpretive abilities, when the audience might prefer to be surprised every once in awhile. One of things that has been missing from the concert halls is the composer/pianist, like a Chopin, Brahms, Rachmaninoff and perhaps a few others. Did Rubinstein, Brendel, or Horowitz write theirs? It's highly doubtful and how many years did they perform? The composer/virtuoso became virtually extinct and now there is a new one of the horizon by the name of Alma Deutscher and I feel strongly that she holds great promise and her presence should be celebrated as something miraculous in the concert halls that hasn't been witnessed in years. Who else besides her is there? Maybe someone else is out there but I'm unable to think of a one. She wrote her OWN cadenza and played it beautifully.


NB - Horowitz did write a cadenza for Rach PC3, brendel wrote cadeenzas for many mozart concertos

just did some quick research - sure other top pianists also did cadenzas


----------



## Larkenfield

stomanek said:


> So you think Alma has more knowledge than a pianist who has done a Bmus and masters performance. Many concert pianists also compose so I really think you are getting a bit carried away claiming they dont have the ability to compose a cadenza.
> 
> If you knew how much practice a concert pianist has to do you would not be surprised that they play existing cadenzas.
> 
> Alma is home educated - plays few concerts compared with a pro pianist - so has the time and probably thought it would be a cool thing to do.


Who are today's composer/pianists?- and I mean not just for a cadenza here and there but for a new concerto, not just for the piano but for the violin. Name them other than Alma Deutscher. Where are their concertos? Where are their cadenzas? Alma is more than home educated. You apparently know little about her or how little originality most famous pianists are known for composing. Name them and we'll all learn something. I believe you have your work cut out.


----------



## Larkenfield

stomanek said:


> NB - Horowitz did write a cadenza for Rach PC3, brendel wrote cadeenzas for many mozart concertos
> 
> just did some quick research - sure other top pianists also did cadenzas


That's two out of many... and you said they probably didn't have time to write them because they were too busy. So that's good to know. Now, how many are alive and doing their own today? The last major composer/pianists I can think of was Sergei Rachmaninoff, though Prokofiev was another. There was also Bela Bartok, Aaron Copland, and Witold Lutoslawski-all of course long gone. Minor contributors would be John Ogden and Stephen Hough. Others are Michael Finnissy, Frederic Rzewski and Fazel Say, and Thomas Adés, though none were prodigies that I know of.


----------



## paulbest

I am sure she could rite cadenzas for all Mozart's concertos, she definitely has this level of skills in composition. 
It is her level of performance that will have to be advanced in the next decade. 
Will Alma become the next Lang Lang or will she become the next Hillary Hahn, we await.


----------



## tdc

Larkenfield said:


> Who are today's composer/pianists?- and I mean not just for a cadenza here and there. Name them other than Alma Deutscher. Where are their concertos? Where are their cadenzas? Alma is more than home educated. You apparently know little about her or how little originality most pianists are known for.


A lot of big name pianists have compositions, but they don't promote themselves as composers. For example I have heard compositions by Stewart Goodyear and Alicia De Laroccha that I find more inspired than anything I've heard by Deutscher. I am not trying to downplay Alma's significant talent and ability, but just because she is being promoted as a child prodigy and composer, doesn't make her accomplishments in the latter field automatically more significant than many other performers who are not well known as also being composers. I agree with those suggesting Alma has a lot of promise and ability but hasn't really found a strong individual compositional voice yet.


----------



## paulbest

Larkenfield said:


> That's two out of many... and you said they probably didn't have time to write them because they were too busy. So that's good to know. Now, how many are alive and doing their own today? The last major composer/pianist I can think of was Sergei Rachmaninoff.


There are no doubt several well written cadenzas for all Mozart's PC;'s, why the need to write yet another?
She should skip candenzas and concentrate on performing Mozart's last 7 piano concertos. 
If she continues giving concerts, composing, violin, piano, she may end up short on mastering a instrument.


----------



## Bulldog

paulbest said:


> I am sure she could rite cadenzas for all Mozart's concertos, she definitely has this level of skills in composition.
> It is her level of performance that will have to be advanced in the next decade.
> Will Alma become the next Lang Lang or will she become the next Hillary Hahn, we await.


You can wait; I'm moving forward.


----------



## paulbest

Bulldog said:


> You can wait; I'm moving forward.


well as to which star do you hope she aspires towards
Lang Lang's pianism 
or 
Hillary Hahn's violin magic?
I guess i gave it away.


----------



## DaveM

Larkenfield said:


> Who are today's composer/pianists?- and I mean not just for a cadenza here and there but for a new concerto not just for the piano but for the violin. Name them other than Alma Deutscher. Where are their concertos? Where are their cadenzas? Alma is more than home educated. You apparently know little about her or how little originality most pianists are known for composing. Name them and we'll all learn something.


This is what I'm surprised is being missed and/or being made light of. We marvel at prodigy-level artists such as Yuja Wang (and there's a lot to marvel at ), but here is this mid-teenager who has already mastered the piano and violin to a level that is well beyond the average talent, in addition to composing concertos and operas. I don't think anything like this has been seen in the 20th or present century.

This is the sort of musical brain that 19th century composers were blessed with. Unfortunately, due particularly to the fact that classical music isn't supported the way it was in the 19th century, Alma Deutscher's future is going to take different turns than composers she is channeling.


----------



## BachIsBest

DaveM said:


> This is what I'm surprised is being missed and/or being made light of. We marvel at prodigy-level artists such as Yuja Wang (and there's a lot to marvel at ), but here is this mid-teenager who has already mastered the piano and violin to a level that is well beyond the average talent, in addition to composing concertos and operas. I don't think anything like this has been seen in the 20th or present century.
> 
> This is the sort of musical brain that 19th century composers were blessed with. Unfortunately, due particularly to the fact that classical music isn't supported the way it was in the 19th century, Alma Deutscher's future is going to take different turns than composers she is channeling.


I don't think child musical prodigies are all too unique (even if they are incredibly rare), even today, it's just no longer overly popular to monetise this talent like it was in Mozart's day.


----------



## PlaySalieri

Larkenfield said:


> Who are today's composer/pianists?- and I mean not just for a cadenza here and there but for a new concerto, not just for the piano but for the violin. *Name them other than Alma Deutscher. Where are their concertos?* Where are their cadenzas? Alma is more than home educated. You apparently know little about her or how little originality most famous pianists are known for composing. Name them and we'll all learn something. I believe you have your work cut out.


dont be so foolish

Alma is getting attention because she can do extraordinary things given her young age

these same accomplishments in an adult would not be interesting

there are young talents in the junior departments of all the conservatoires

can they compose neo classical works? yes - do they? no - their teachers are encouraging them to look forward in music not back.

in a composition competition Alma's works would be dismissed because they dont even try to add anything new to music


----------



## PlaySalieri

Larkenfield said:


> *That's two out of many.*.. and you said they probably didn't have time to write them because they were too busy. So that's good to know. Now, how many are alive and doing their own today? The last major composer/pianists I can think of was Sergei Rachmaninoff, though Prokofiev was another. There was also Bela Bartok, Aaron Copland, and Witold Lutoslawski-all of course long gone. Minor contributors would be John Ogden and Stephen Hough. Others are Michael Finnissy, Frederic Rzewski and Fazel Say, and Thomas Adés, though none were prodigies that I know of.


You gave a list of pianists and said they haven't done any cadenzas

i debunked that with 2 minutes research

I just looked up Uchida

https://www.deutschegrammophon.com/gb/cat/4757306

looks like she has done mozart cadenzas too

so i was wrong - seems pianists do have the time and interest to do cadenzas


----------



## PlaySalieri

paulbest said:


> I am sure she could rite cadenzas for all Mozart's concertos, she definitely has this level of skills in composition.
> It is her level of performance that will have to be advanced in the next decade.
> *Will Alma become the next Lang Lang or will she become the next Hillary Hahn, we await.*


well she's not far off the age where she should be getting major recognition for her violin skills. Where are the invitations for her to play anything other than her own works.

Mutter was recording Mozart with Karajan at 16


----------



## BabyGiraffe

stomanek said:


> can they compose neo classical works? yes - do they? no - their teachers are encouraging them to look forward in music not back.
> 
> in a composition competition Alma's works would be dismissed because they dont even try to add anything new to music


Music is not a competition.
And Alma probably already makes a living out of her own original music (thanks to her popularity) unlike the so called "progressive" composers that noone knows and few care about.


----------



## PlaySalieri

BabyGiraffe said:


> Music is not a competition.
> And Alma probably already makes a living out of her own original music (thanks to her popularity) unlike the so called "progressive" composers that noone knows and few care about.


Unlikely that she makes a living - she has a CD and dvd out - which has some sales. performing - looking at her schedule she performs about once a month - mainly overseas - the cost of getting her and her parents overseas - hotel etc - would most likely exceed anything she gets for performing.

She is having lessons on piano and violin from menuhin schools teachers who charge £100 an hour.

Bringing up a prodigy is no cheap business so I would be surprised if her parents are in the black. But this wont be their concern - they will - I assume - be thinking about Alma's long term future.


----------



## DaveM

stomanek said:


> well she's not far off the age where she should be getting major recognition for her violin skills. Where are the invitations for her to play anything other than her own works.
> 
> Mutter was recording Mozart with Karajan at 16


You seem determined to constantly be pointing out (alleged) negatives, most of which have been debunked. Videos have been put up here of her playing Mozart's Piano Concerto #8 with her own cadenza at age 10 and Bach's Double Piano Concerto at about the same age. From her performance of her own Violin Concerto, do you really think she wouldn't be able to play a Mozart Violin Concerto at her present age of 14?


----------



## PlaySalieri

DaveM said:


> You seem determined to constantly be pointing out (alleged) negatives, most of which have been debunked. Videos have been put up here of her playing Mozart's Piano Concerto #8 with her own cadenza at age 10 and Bach's Double Piano Concerto at about the same age. From her performance of her own Violin Concerto, do you really think she wouldn't be able to play a Mozart Violin Concerto at her present age of 14?


Nobody debunked any of my points. I am the one doing the debunking - I proved that top level pianists also write their own cadenzas for works they play.

Can she play Mozart? yes of course - just like thousands of other young violinists.

Where did i say she cant play Mozart violin concertos?

can she play them as well as other 14 year old violin prodigies? very unlikely.


----------



## DaveM

stomanek said:


> Nobody debunked any of my points. I am the one doing the debunking - I proved that top level pianists also write their own cadenzas for works they play.
> 
> Can she play Mozart? yes of course - just like thousands of other young violinists.
> 
> Where did i say she cant play Mozart violin concertos?


You inferred as much when you questioned why she (allegedly) wasn't invited to play other works and followed it with the comment about Mutter doing so with a Mozart Concerto at age 16. Which is also interesting coming from someone who claimed that she is being exploited and now is suggesting she should be performing even more than she already is.


----------



## PlaySalieri

DaveM said:


> You inferred as much when you questioned why she (allegedly) wasn't invited to play other works and followed it with the comment about Mutter doing so with a Mozart Concerto at age 16. Which is also interesting coming from someone who claimed that she is being exploited and now is suggesting she should be performing even more than she already is.


Jeez - you are hard work.

My point is that Mutter was such an outstanding violin talent at 16 that she was already getting invitations from leading conductors to play mainstream repertoire at top venues and recorded Mozart with karajan.

I dont see anything like this happening for Alma - who is a good player for her age - but not in the top league.


----------



## Larkenfield

stomanek said:


> Jeez - you are hard work.
> 
> My point is that Mutter was such an outstanding violin talent at 16 that she was already getting invitations from leading conductors to play mainstream repertoire at top venues and recorded Mozart with karajan.
> 
> I dont see anything like this happening for Alma - who is a good player for her age - but not in the top league.


 Zubin Mehta on Alma Deutscher: https://www.theobjectivestandard.com/2017/12/alma-deutscher-the-first/. Mehta brought her opera _Cinderella_ to Vienna. Is he leading and important enough as a conductor? Some of you are still not up to date on all that she's done. With regard to her violin playing, she's only 14 with plenty of time to develop, and of course, she's studying two instruments and not just one like Mutter, nor is Mutter a composer with that to think about.

Article excerpt: Conductor Zubin Mehta has called Alma Deutscher one of the world's greatest musical talents. In addition to being a virtuoso pianist and violinist who has performed all over Europe, in China and Japan, and in the United States, Deutscher is an accomplished composer of classical sonatas, piano and violin concertos, and operas.


----------



## Guest

Larkenfield said:


> Some of you apparently just _want_ there to be problems of exploitation.


And some of you (and we don't need to name you, apparently) just want to misread others' questioning as carping.

As far as I've been reading, no-one but no-one has failed to acknowledge that Alma has an extraordinary talent. The perfectly reasonable questions being asked - about _how _extraordinary she is, how she compares to other prodigies (past and present), what the future might hold, whether her talents are being appropriately cultivated and managed - should not be inferred as denigrating her talent.

There is a very small number of prodigies who made it as adult artists. This will not only be because they are a rarity; it will also be because some opted not to continue with a musical career and are therefore unknown to us.

Of course, she may yet go on to be an internationally renowned composer and performer as an adult. For all we know, Alma will decide for herself that whatever her musical capabilities, other skills will become more important and she will decide to be a teacher or an accountant.


----------



## Dimace

MacLeod said:


> And some of you (and we don't need to name you, apparently) just want to misread others' questioning as carping.
> 
> As far as I've been reading, no-one but no-one has failed to acknowledge that Alma has an extraordinary talent. The perfectly reasonable questions being asked - about _how _extraordinary she is, how she compares to other prodigies (past and present), what the future might hold, whether her talents are being appropriately cultivated and managed - should not be inferred as denigrating her talent.
> 
> *There is a very small number of prodigies who made it as adult artists.* This will not only be because they are a rarity; it will also be because some opted not to continue with a musical career and are therefore unknown to us.
> 
> Of course, she may yet go on to be an internationally renowned composer and performer as an adult. For all we know, Alma will decide for herself that whatever her musical capabilities, other skills will become more important and she will decide to be a teacher or an accountant.


This is a big truth. We see this also in sports. How many super talents remained talents and they have done nothing, in football for example. Work, work and work is needed...


----------



## mikeh375

MacLeod said:


> ....................
> There is a very small number of prodigies who made it as adult artists. This will not only be because they are a rarity; it will also be because some opted not to continue with a musical career and are therefore unknown to us.
> 
> Of course, she may yet go on to be an internationally renowned composer and performer as an adult. For all we know, Alma will decide for herself that whatever her musical capabilities, other skills will become more important and she will decide to be a teacher or an accountant.


Absolutely MacLeod. I can think of two people I knew, gifted way beyond the average who walked away from music. One went into business, the other is now a QC. I do doubt that a similar fate is awaiting Deutscher though, one can't see her walking away given her success so far.
At the Menuhin School she will be among equals and students much, much better than her, which I hope will give her a levelling perspective on the hype. I don't know about the composition department there, but they have a big responsibility, nay duty imv to bring her talent to fruition in a way that develops her own voice whilst exposing her to what is possible beyond her current style. 
I've been fortunate to work with several players who went to the Menuhin School and one in particular who was under Menuhin's own tutelage. She will graduate being in a much better place as a player for sure. As to whether she needs to choose to be a performer _or_ a composer, my guess is that she will probably do both (but probably not _2_ instruments). One immediately thinks of Britten who was one of the finest pianists of his generation and one of greatest and naturally able composers of the 20thC.

Quick question, does anybody know if she has perfect pitch?


----------



## DavidA

stomanek said:


> Jeez - you are hard work.
> 
> My point is that *Mutter was such an outstanding violin talent at 16 that she was already getting invitations from leading conductors to play mainstream repertoire at top venues and recorded Mozart with karajan.
> *
> I dont see anything like this happening for Alma - who is a good player for her age - but not in the top league.


I just don't think this is a fair comparison as Mutter had not written compositions for the violin or an opera.


----------



## paulbest

Larkenfield said:


> Zubin Mehta on Alma Deutscher: Deutscher is an accomplished composer of classical sonatas, piano and violin concertos, and operas.


The amazon forests are burning, this is true. 
This world is full of propaganda and half truths, 
If you believe this, and did Mehta actually say this ?
does he believe this?

accomplished?
HA!
next to who?, Schnittke. 
Schnittke, Henze has set new standards , heights to which no one will attain,. 
The great trad is over, Kaput. 
The only thing left now is for folks to gasp and woooo at Lang Lang, Yuja Wang's performances which are good, but nothing special. 
Wang says she is saving Beethoven for later on, a good decision, when she starts lvB, = super demand = $$$$$$$
smart asian girl. 
The CM industry is all commercialized along with its romantic indoctrinations. 
Alma has not proven anything yet. She is a phenomenon, that is all.


----------



## paulbest

DavidA said:


> I just don't think this is a fair comparison as Mutter had not written compositions for the violin or an opera.


*compositions* *opera*
would you really buy a cd of these things and actually a attend a performance?
Oh now really....
folks are tripping around here......overa young start that has some nicites , but not close to anything *accomplished*. 
Look there is a ton of past masterpieces,w hich are now nothing more than a historical file in the vaults. 
Henze might see 1 of his works performed this year. .Pettersson zero, other than Christian Lindberg's project. Which appears to have run out of cash. 
So make that zero performances of Pettersson. 
Elliott carter might see a concert or 2. 
and here you speak of *compositions*, HA!
It may be decades,,no wait,,,this world loves sensation,,she may bump way ahead of Pettersson for concerts, This world loves fizzle and the sensational. 
all fake. 
Yes she is a perfect candidate for success , as with Lang and Wang.


----------



## PlaySalieri

paulbest said:


> *compositions* *opera*
> would you really buy a cd of these things and actually a attend a performance?
> Oh now really....
> folks are tripping around here......overa young start that has some nicites , but not close to anything *accomplished*.
> Look there is a ton of past masterpieces,w hich are now nothing more than a historical file in the vaults.
> Henze might see 1 of his works performed this year. .Pettersson zero, other than Christian Lindberg's project. Which appears to have run out of cash.
> So make that zero performances of Pettersson.
> Elliott carter might see a concert or 2.
> and here you speak of *compositions*, HA!
> It may be decades,,no wait,,,this world loves sensation,,she may bump way ahead of Pettersson for concerts, This world loves fizzle and the sensational.
> all fake.
> Yes she is a perfect candidate for success , as with* Lang and Wang*.


To be fair - Lang Lang does have recording contracts with top labels - has won at least 1 big competition.

if she reaches Lang Lang's level I would say she has made a good career.

she could make a good career in any case as an adult - since she is building her name and people may flock to her concerts - as they are doing now - because she is becoming famous.

I give her parents credit - partly because they have spared her from the need to compete with her peers in competitions.


----------



## PlaySalieri

DavidA said:


> I just don't think this is a fair comparison as Mutter had not written compositions for the violin or an opera.


Thats my point - Mutter and other successful soloists focus on one instrument - all their energies to one field. Had she been a pianist and a composer - she would not have reached the heights she did.

But then I sense Alma is presenting herself as a composer who can also play to a high standard violin and piano. So it may not matter if she primarily wants to compose. I am just rebutting those who think she has a chance to become a top soloist.


----------



## PlaySalieri

mikeh375 said:


> Absolutely MacLeod. I can think of two people I knew, gifted way beyond the average who walked away from music. One went into business, the other is now a QC. I do doubt that a similar fate is awaiting Deutscher though, one can't see her walking away given her success so far.
> At the Menuhin School she will be among equals and students much, much better than her, which I hope will give her a levelling perspective on the hype. I don't know about the composition department there, but they have a big responsibility, nay duty imv to bring her talent to fruition in a way that develops her own voice whilst exposing her to what is possible beyond her current style.
> I've been fortunate to work with several players who went to the Menuhin School and one in particular who was under Menuhin's own tutelage. She will graduate being in a much better place as a player for sure. As to whether she needs to choose to be a performer _or_ a composer, my guess is that she will probably do both (but probably not _2_ instruments). One immediately thinks of Britten who was one of the finest pianists of his generation and one of greatest and naturally able composers of the 20thC.
> 
> Quick question, does anybody know if she has perfect pitch?


As far as I know she is being taught by menuhin school teachers. So she may not have much or any interaction with the pupils there. The violin teachers live nearby the school - I know this for a fact, and I suspect she goes to the teachers' houses rather than to the school. If you google menuhin school and alma's name - there is virtually no mention of her so she is not a pupil of that school - which is a shame - as I think she would benefit from the interaction - playing chamber music etc. Unless she presents something radically different from what she has composed so far - I would doubt that she is having any composition lessons - which in my view is not good. Every composer of any note had tuition.


----------



## DavidA

paulbest said:


> *compositions* *opera*
> would you really buy a cd of these things and actually a attend a performance?
> Oh now really....
> folks are tripping around here......overa young start that has some nicites , but not close to anything *accomplished*.
> Look there is a ton of past masterpieces,w hich are now nothing more than a historical file in the vaults.
> Henze might see 1 of his works performed this year. .Pettersson zero, other than Christian Lindberg's project. Which appears to have run out of cash.
> So make that zero performances of Pettersson.
> Elliott carter might see a concert or 2.
> and here you speak of *compositions*, HA!
> It may be decades,,no wait,,,this world loves sensation,,she may bump way ahead of Pettersson for concerts, This world loves fizzle and the sensational.
> all fake.
> Yes she is a perfect candidate for success , as with *Lang and Wang*.


Land Lang and Yuja Wang are both internationally regarded players. I don't think your attitude towards them it will bother them in the slightest! Any more than your attitude towards Alma. Time will tell with her. 
It's funny but music is supposed to be heard. If no-one wants to hear it then it might just be that the music it not too listenable.


----------



## PlaySalieri

Larkenfield said:


> Zubin Mehta on Alma Deutscher: https://www.theobjectivestandard.com/2017/12/alma-deutscher-the-first/. Mehta brought her opera _Cinderella_ to Vienna. Is he leading and important enough as a conductor? Some of you are still not up to date on all that she's done. With regard to her violin playing, she's only 14 with plenty of time to develop, and of course, she's studying two instruments and not just one like Mutter, nor is Mutter a composer with that to think about.
> 
> Article excerpt: Conductor Zubin Mehta has called Alma Deutscher one of the world's greatest musical talents. In addition to being a virtuoso pianist and violinist who has performed all over Europe, in China and Japan, and in the United States, Deutscher is an accomplished composer of classical sonatas, piano and violin concertos, and operas.


yeah I know what Mehta said - what do you expect him to say.

she is no virtuoso on either the piano or the violin.

let's see her play pagaini's 1st VC with ease - then we'll see. If she can do that - she's a virtuoso.

As I confirm - she has done amazing things - but dont get carried away.


----------



## DavidA

stomanek said:


> yeah I know what Mehta said - what do you expect him to say.
> 
> she is no virtuoso on either the piano or the violin.
> 
> let's see her play pagaini's 1st VC with ease - then we'll see. If she can do that - she's a virtuoso.
> 
> As I confirm - she has done amazing things - *but dont get carried away*.


That his the key point. She is a cute kid of pretty amazing talent which obviously is being pushed for now for novelty value. But just how good she is time will tell. Both the fan and the cynic should hold their adulation / fire.


----------



## PlaySalieri

MacLeod said:


> And some of you (and we don't need to name you, apparently) just want to misread others' questioning as carping.
> 
> As far as I've been reading, no-one but no-one has failed to acknowledge that Alma has an extraordinary talent. The perfectly reasonable questions being asked - about _how _extraordinary she is, how she compares to other prodigies (past and present), what the future might hold, whether her talents are being appropriately cultivated and managed - should not be inferred as denigrating her talent.
> 
> There is a very small number of prodigies who made it as adult artists. *This will not only be because they are a rarity; it will also be because some opted not to continue with a musical career and are therefore unknown to us.*
> 
> Of course, she may yet go on to be an internationally renowned composer and performer as an adult. For all we know, Alma will decide for herself that whatever her musical capabilities, other skills will become more important and she will decide to be a teacher or an accountant.


true - behind every prodigy there is an ambitious parent or two

there comes a time in a young person's life when they begin to question the future path parents have laid out for them.

having said that - I do believe we will see Alma as an adult musician/composer - she would be foolish not to make the most of where she is now. It's just a question of how important a figure she will be. There are BBC young musician winners who virtually vanished after one or two years of engagements or play small time local concerts.

If Alma entered the BBC comp and won - now I would be more impressed with that than anything she has done so far as she would have proven she is at least as good as the best of her peers. But that wont happen since her parents wont risk her reputation in any competitive event and I don't blame them for that.


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## Bigbang

I posted this under "child prodigy thread" a few weeks ago but original post was from 2015. Only two replies in 2019. Anyway this is my opinion not of Alma D but any prodigy. Personally I have no opinion as no one can predict what her outcome might be in music. My quick thoughts are just that but one has to grasp my point otherwise not much use in rehashing it. But since it is relevant to this thread...here goes.

[I see this first post is from 2015. Here is my take, yes, you see all these prodigies come up from nowhere but where do they land? What comes of the "next Mozart"? When I look into the background of current pianists who have had very strong careers I do not see this "prodigy" in many of them. Then you look at composers who could write a masterpiece seemly out of thin air and not a one prodigy can take some aspect of music and create some new music. Obviously the path has been created by the Masters and many of the lesser masters also contributed to this so I guess it would take some really extraordinary being to take it up a notch.

I look at it like this: Beethoven was in a certain time and place and the mind/genius/ and as well as the inner being of Beethoven allowed him to do what he did. So genius is not some isolated entity but part of time and place. So it goes for Bach/Mozart/Haydn...well the list could go on. But now the prodigies seem also to have other abilities such as being good in math "(Beethoven, how many coffee beans subtracted from 20=10?)" Well, you get the idea. How many of the whiz kids can even muster just a fraction of this mind. So the mystery is why someone (ok, Murray Perahia) can somehow come into being and do pretty good considering he was not some prodigy. Mathematicians would say the laws of randomness has much to do with it but I think, yes though we cannot know if randomness means really chance or it appears as chance since we cannot see all the details in all things.

I guess my point is no matter how seemly a genius a child is, the odds they can knock off the past masters is going to be difficult. I remember watching a video of Jasha Heifetz and when a child/young adult, thousands would come and see him as if he were some amazing person. And yet, time and place...and now you hear of violinists who pay homage to him as if he did something for them.]


----------



## Bigbang

The 60 minute segment, Alma D basically states she lives and breathes music all the time so regardless of her parents and what not, her future is likely music for sure. I mean, if you cannot get the music out of your head...............


----------



## Bigbang

stomanek said:


> true - behind every prodigy there is an ambitious parent or two
> 
> there comes a time in a young person's life when they begin to question the future path parents have laid out for them.
> 
> having said that - I do believe we will see Alma as an adult musician/composer - she would be foolish not to make the most of where she is now. It's just a question of how important a figure she will be. There are BBC young musician winners who virtually vanished after one or two years of engagements or play small time local concerts.
> 
> If Alma entered the BBC comp and won - now I would be more impressed with that than anything she has done so far as she would have proven she is at least as good as the best of her peers. But that wont happen since her parents wont risk her reputation in any competitive event and I don't blame them for that.


Or that maybe they think they are being protective parents and do not wish to destroy their daughter's life causing her harm and long term damage.


----------



## paulbest

what about 
Lang
and
Wang
Child prodigies, making $$$$$$

100$ seats, 
worth it?
What say y\e?
Wang is brtter, but does she trump your 10 cd recordings of Brahms 2nd and your 20 cd recordings of Rach's 3rd?
And your 25 recordings of Beethoven PC;s, does Lang top any of the 25 cds in your collections?
Yet both are maiking $$$$$$$$$$. 
Child prodigies, or sensationalist milking the system?
which is another reason i despise the romantic composers. 
Its a industry.


----------



## Bigbang

paulbest said:


> what about
> Lang
> and
> Wang
> Child prodigies, making $$$$$$
> 
> 100$ seats,
> worth it?
> What say y\e?
> Wang is brtter, but does she trump your 10 cd recordings of Brahms 2nd and your 20 cd recordings of Rach's 3rd?
> And your 25 recordings of Beethoven PC;s, does Lang top any of the 25 cds in your collections?
> Yet both are maiking $$$$$$$$$$.
> Child prodigies, or sensationalist milking the system?
> which is another reason i despise the romantic composers.
> Its a industry.


You are blaming the romantic composers of the past for what is happening now??


----------



## paulbest

Yeah when I think about how the concert halls program 90% plus %age of roamntics,,yeah gets my gall upset. Stinks. 
I hate the romantics. 
Including Rachmaninov. and Sibelius


----------



## PlaySalieri

Bigbang said:


> Or that maybe they think they are being protective parents and do not wish to destroy their daughter's life causing her harm and long term damage.


you think they think that healthy competition is a bad thing? why?

or do you think if she does not win - or does not reach the final round - it will damage her confidence and credibility?


----------



## Larkenfield

I highly doubt if a competition would be of benefit to her. She has received so much attention now that it would be unfair to others and call too much attention away from them. Competitions are to start or build a career and she does not need them because she’s already carved out a place for herself. She will continue to develop as an instrumentalist anyway. People are already interested and are looking to her as a composer and not as a performer only. She’s played successfully and been well received in many parts of the world, including Israel, Germany, Vienna, United States (including at Carnegie Hall), and China. She seems to be doing just fine on the path she has chosen for herself and her future looks bright without subjecting herself to the horse race of competitions. She’s already received recognition from Zubin Mehta and Thomas Hampson by the prodigious age of 14. Well deserved, in my view. Her Mozart cadenza is amazing for a 10-year-old, or for any adult. Her professional demeanor, poise and bearing on both piano and violin is also exemplary, quite remarkable. I hope she stays free of the competitive meat grinder. She’s fine without it.


----------



## PlaySalieri

Larkenfield said:


> I highly doubt if a competition would be of benefit to her. She has received so much attention now that it would be unfair to others and call too much attention away from them. Competitions are to start or build a career and she does not need them because she's already carved out a place for herself. She will continue to develop as an instrumentalist anyway. People are already interested and are looking to her as a composer and not as a performer only. She's played successfully and been well received in many parts of the world, including Israel, Germany, Vienna, United States, and China. She seems to be doing just fine on the path she has chosen for herself and her future looks bright without subjecting herself to the horse race of competitions. She's already received recognition from Zubin Mehta and Thomas Hampson.


Maybe - but there's not much interest in her playing anything but her own works. Go and study her schedule.

You will say it's unfair to compare her with the likes of Sarah Chang - who had a debut album with EMI recorded when she was 10 (and placing highly on the CM charts) - at 12 she recorded Tchaik and Brahms VCs with Colin Davis.

In her teen years she was playing approx 100 concerts per year.

Im just saying that well as Alma has done - there is interest in her as a composing/playing modern day Mozart.

People find it charming and impressive to see a young lady playing her own compositions.

That's her selling point at the moment.

Of course - many will say, what does it matter as long as she's making money and enjoying what she's doing?

all I can say is - it doesnt matter at all.

As serious listeners though lets not pretend she's something she's not until she's done something really impressive not taking into account her age.

As she is young - we will need to wait a few years.


----------



## Larkenfield

stomanek said:


> Maybe - but there's not much interest in her playing anything but her own works. Go and study her schedule.
> 
> You will say it's unfair to compare her with the likes of Sarah Chang - who had a debut album with EMI recorded when she was 10 (and placing highly on the CM charts) - at 12 she recorded Tchaik and Brahms VCs with Colin Davis.
> 
> In her teen years she was playing approx 100 concerts per year.
> 
> Im just saying that well as Alma has done - there is interest in her as a composing/playing modern day Mozart.
> 
> People find it charming and impressive to see a young lady playing her own compositions.
> 
> That's her selling point at the moment.


I believe the public is interested in her, not only because of her musicianship but because of her own works. She's already debuting at Carnegie Hall:






I do not see her future dedicated to being a violin virtuoso on its own, like a Chang, but primarily with regard to her own compositions. She also has the piano to consider. So she's not in the same mold, at least so far, but some want to view her development conventionally, and yet she's already broken the mold by performing two of her own concertos on two separate and major instruments. It's unprecedented in modern times. She's also performed two Bach Concertos on violin and piano in the same concert. That's unprecedented too and she performed beautifully. The main thing to watch, IMO, is how puberty is likely to change her and bring a new emotional maturity to her works in the coming years. If I am lucky enough, I'll be around to hear it, and I hope that I do.


----------



## PlaySalieri

Larkenfield said:


> She's already debuting at Carnegie Hall:


Yeah I know - her 60 minutes program aired on USA television and subsequently her carnegie hall debut sold out.

will be interesting to read the american reviews


----------



## DaveM

paulbest said:


> *compositions* *opera*
> would you really buy a cd of these things and actually a attend a performance?
> Oh now really....
> folks are tripping around here......overa young start that has some nicites , but not close to anything *accomplished*.


You might want to head over to Amazon and buy her Cinderella Opera on Sony DVD or a CD of her music, but you better hurry because there is only 1 copy left of the former and 6 left of the latter. Some 'tripping folks' seem to be buying them.


----------



## Bigbang

stomanek said:


> you think they think that healthy competition is a bad thing? why?
> 
> or do you think if she does not win - or does not reach the final round - it will damage her confidence and credibility?


This goes to my point earlier I made...I have no opinion so I have no judgement per se about Alma D as I am not up on what she is doing though I sampled a few concerts on youtube. My take is she could evolve quite well and succeed without doing direct competition or try and see where it goes. There does not appear to be any guarantee of success regardless of what path she takes. There is a book on randomness (I do not agree with it entirely) by Leonard Mlodinow and he devotes some of the book to the idea of talent and success and how randomness plays a role.

But I think genius is not separate from the time and place a person lives in. So AD is dealt a deck and she has to decide what to do with her life and history will put her somewhere, and from what I have read many in the past are forgotten. Even Bach had to be revived. Mozart???? Well his sonatas were played after his death but his piano concertos I think were not really played until 20th century.


----------



## paulbest

speaking of child prodigies. what about Lang and Wang. I note some YT vids have a few thumbs down, *don't like* votes. 
So there are others out there besides me who feel both are amazing the public, but then the general public which attends the SOLD OUT concerts,,every last 1 for both stars, what do they really know aboyt CM, other than, *wow, thats nice*. 
I think all the child prodogies are just a bunch of gimmickery. 
There have been a few great violinists post david oistrakh, But in piano, its really hard to find a great pianist past 15 years still performing. 
Livia Rev retired, Cecile Ousset , retired, all the greats have retired, All we are left with is these child prodigies, Which I ain;'t buying into. 
Bavouzet is *hit N miss*. 
But more consistent that either Lang and Wang. 
Folks have no level of distinction now a days, Its all bland white bread and they are willing to pay $100a seat to watch and gawk.
btw Wang for music listens to pop/rock/jazz, She never mentions *I listen to CM*. 
All she is doing is milking the cow. 
and what about Lang's antics as he plays THROUGHOUT the entire piece?
anyone? 
I rate both grade B minus performers,,and that;s being generous.
Both are really C plus. But I am being kind in all this.


----------



## DaveM

Larkenfield said:


> ..The main thing to watch, IMO, is how puberty is likely to change her and bring a new emotional maturity to her works in the coming years. If I am lucky enough, I'll be around to hear it, and I hope that I do.


I hope she survives the teenage period with her gifts and motivation intact. I seem to remember that Charlotte Church imploded during later adolescence for awhile as have others. Somehow, I think AD will be okay. She doesn't come across to me as the driven prodigy comet that will flame out quickly. What has been refreshing for me has been how the music seems to come effortlessly to her rather than her being driven by outside forces to express it.


----------



## s4rC45m101

A lot of assumptions based on old data in this thread so as someone who mildly follows her
career with interest I thought I would chip in with some up to date info on what she is doing atm. If I may.
Sorry if some of the info is of a kind that belongs in a fan club, but don't worry I wont talk about
what she eats for breakfast 

Alma no longer lives in England and therefor doesn't attend the Menuhin teachers anymore. Her and her family now
lives in Vienna, Austria (go figure), where she, among other things attend ballet classes and is a member
of two choirs and hangs out with other home schooled kids and her sister. 
Anyways, According to recent interviews Alma is focused solely on being/becoming a composer
when it comes to career choice.

Regarding her career she is currently working on her third opera commissioned by The Salzburg State Theater. 
Her latest work, a 15 minute long orchestral piece, which she finished earlier this year, has already been
performed in four different countries and is scheduled to be performed at the Salzburg New Years Eve concert,
just as it will be performed at Carnegie and in Indianapolis later this year. That's 7 performances
of her latest work within the first year. Not bad for a budding composer.

Regarding the music she listens to, well, from what I can gather she listens to a lot of different music 
but probably not anything post 1950 or whatever. Last year she mentioned that she had been studying Bruckner
for a while and was about to learn more about Wagner. She has also taken lessons with Jorg Widmann where among others, 
they analyzed Alban Berg. She later said she used stuff found in Bergs music in her own music. 
So she's not completely living in a bubble of Mozart and Schubert. At least not anymore it seems.

Furthermore I wouldn't be surprised if she has a free pass to the Vienna State Opera or the Phil, considering
the Vienna State Opera has performed her opera more than 30 times, albeit not on the big stage, and she
"regularly" performs with members of the Phil on different occasions. She's set, no doubt about that.

There's no doubt that Vienna/Austria and the music establishment there (or at least the ones in power)has
fully embraced Alma and will continue to do so for the foreseeable future.

In October 2019 she will receive the European Culture Award as Newcomer of the Year, and perform some music 
with Daniel Hope.

That's it. Now you can at least make assumptions on fresh data. Have fun 

PS: Here's a quote from Mutter herself about Alma:

“It is absolutely extraordinary what this young girl has managed to achieve on the violin,
the piano, and in her compositions. Her musical sensitivity and her powers of expression
already at this age underline her exceptional talent.”


----------



## regenmusic

stomanek said:


> Unlikely that she makes a living - she has a CD and dvd out - which has some sales. performing - looking at her schedule she performs about once a month - mainly overseas - the cost of getting her and her parents overseas - hotel etc - would most likely exceed anything she gets for performing.


You have to be kidding. Do you think her parents do these concerts with her as a type of charity?

Of course she is making money from them, as she should be.


----------



## KenOC

regenmusic said:


> You have to be kidding. Do you think her parents do these concerts with her as a type of charity?
> 
> Of course she is making money from them, as she should be.


I also doubt there is any significant money being made by anybody. Some of her past performances have been "sponsored" by well-known musical figures to help defray expenses, which are considerable. In addition to the travel, there is hall rental, pay for the musicians (rehearsals and performance) and many other costs.

In the US at least, actual performance revenues usually only cover 30-40 percent of costs. The rest has to come from donations or, in Europe, governmental subsidies.


----------



## Fabulin

Young Alma better not read this poll or topic. No matter if she is defended, she probably does not even imagine that strangers with no agenda can have a passive-negative "bad until proven otherwise" mentality towards her love of music and expression thereof.

A couple of bad apples can spoil an entire basket, especially to a young creative.

I hope she perseveres. By the time she gets to the age of 24, she could well have an additional 20 000 hours or more put into music (20,000 / 10x365 = 5,5h / day).


----------



## DaveM

Fabulin said:


> Young Alma better not read this poll or topic. No matter if she is defended, she probably does not even imagine that strangers with no agenda can have a passive-negative "bad until proven otherwise" mentality towards her love of music and expression thereof.


Well said.......


----------



## DavidA

paulbest said:


> what about
> Lang
> and
> Wang
> Child prodigies, making $$$$$$
> 
> 100$ seats,
> worth it?
> What say y\e?
> Wang is brtter, but does she trump your 10 cd recordings of Brahms 2nd and your 20 cd recordings of Rach's 3rd?
> And your 25 recordings of Beethoven PC;s, does Lang top any of the 25 cds in your collections?
> Yet both are maiking $$$$$$$$$$.
> Child prodigies, or sensationalist milking the system?
> which is another reason i despise the romantic composers.
> Its a industry.


What is this nonsense? Of course these guys are making money. Do you think classical pianists play to entertain people as a charity? :lol: Please get on the right planet!


----------



## DavidA

paulbest said:


> speaking of child prodigies. what about Lang and Wang. I note some YT vids have a few thumbs down, *don't like* votes.
> So there are others out there besides me who feel both are amazing the public, but then the general public which attends the SOLD OUT concerts,,every last 1 for both stars, what do they really know aboyt CM, other than, *wow, thats nice*.
> I think all the child prodogies are just a bunch of gimmickery.
> There have been a few great violinists post david oistrakh, But in piano, its really hard to find a great pianist past 15 years still performing.
> Livia Rev retired, Cecile Ousset , retired, all the greats have retired, All we are left with is these child prodigies, Which I ain;'t buying into.
> Bavouzet is *hit N miss*.
> But more consistent that either Lang and Wang.
> Folks have no level of distinction now a days, Its all bland white bread and they are willing to pay $100a seat to watch and gawk.
> btw Wang for music listens to pop/rock/jazz, She never mentions *I listen to CM*.
> All she is doing is milking the cow.
> and what about Lang's antics as he plays THROUGHOUT the entire piece?
> anyone?
> I rate both grade B minus performers,,and that;s being generous.
> Both are really C plus. But I am being kind in all this.


I think TC is being kind letting you post this stuff. You obviously have no idea what you are on about.


----------



## Larkenfield

paulbest said:


> speaking of child prodigies. what about Lang and Wang. I note some YT vids have a few thumbs down, *don't like* votes.
> So there are others out there besides me who feel both are amazing the public, but then the general public which attends the SOLD OUT concerts,,every last 1 for both stars, what do they really know aboyt CM, other than, *wow, thats nice*.
> I think all the child prodogies are just a bunch of gimmickery.
> There have been a few great violinists post david oistrakh, But in piano, its really hard to find a great pianist past 15 years still performing.
> Livia Rev retired, Cecile Ousset , retired, all the greats have retired, All we are left with is these child prodigies, Which I ain;'t buying into.
> Bavouzet is *hit N miss*.
> But more consistent that either Lang and Wang.
> Folks have no level of distinction now a days, Its all bland white bread and they are willing to pay $100a seat to watch and gawk.
> btw Wang for music listens to pop/rock/jazz, She never mentions *I listen to CM*.
> All she is doing is milking the cow.
> and what about Lang's antics as he plays THROUGHOUT the entire piece?
> anyone?
> I rate both grade B minus performers,,and that;s being generous.
> Both are really C plus. But I am being kind in all this.


Really? It's that bad? Every day I get up and find a treasure trove of things to revel in, including more great pianists than I can count. Fine orchestras. But I'll look! And of course, anyone overdosing on some of the composers who sound like a black cloud is hardly going to open one's eyes to the best creative fruit that's just waiting to be plucked off the vine. Never have so many fine performances been available, and often for free.


----------



## paulbest

If you think I might be tempted to click on Thibaudet's Ravel concerto, you are sadly mistaken.


----------



## PlaySalieri

regenmusic said:


> You have to be kidding. Do you think her parents do these concerts with her as a type of charity?
> 
> Of course she is making money from them, as she should be.


No Im not kidding - it is no secret that putting on a concert is a very expensive business. Why do you think that orchestras and opera companies require funding - the money from tickets does not cover costs. The venue - promotion - insurance - cost of an orchestra, singers or other soloists etc - is eyewatering. This is not even to mention the cost of travel, hotels etc which can easily runs into thousands.

Individual top soloists can do well - Lang Lang might well be paid £10K for 1 concert plus hotel and travel. But then tickets to see Lang Lang are £100. But the net result of the concert could easily be a loss - covered by sponsors and maybe some other funding.

Parents are looking at long term investment - one day people will also be paying £100 to hear Alma play - it is hoped.


----------



## PlaySalieri

KenOC said:


> I also doubt there is any significant money being made by anybody. Some of her past performances have been "sponsored" by well-known musical figures to help defray expenses, which are considerable. In addition to the travel, there is hall rental, pay for the musicians (rehearsals and performance) and many other costs.
> 
> *In the US at least, actual performance revenues usually only cover 30-40 percent of costs. The rest has to come from donations or, in Europe, governmental subsidies.*


and yet principal 1st violin in some top usa orchestras earn huge salaries - like $500K per year.


----------



## regenmusic

If they are sponsored then that means the parents would not have to pay for things like air fare and hotels. Do you think she's not getting a performance fee?


----------



## KenOC

stomanek said:


> and yet principal 1st violin in some top usa orchestras earn huge salaries - like $500K per year.


I researched this a few years ago. Concertmasters do quite well, although few do _that _well. In a couple of cases, the concertmaster made more than the conductor/music director.


----------



## PlaySalieri

regenmusic said:


> If they are sponsored then that means the parents would not have to pay for things like air fare and hotels. Do you think she's not getting a performance fee?


It depends on what the agreement is. If it is sponsored - at best it wouldnt cost them anything - but if the deal only covers the direct costs of the concert - then hotels etc will not be included.

I dont know if Alma receives a fee - maybe a nominal one. If the concerts need to be sponsored i cant imagine she would get much.

One thing I hope Alma's parents sorted out her performance license when she was resident in this country - as minors cannot perform without one.

I understand that Sony Classical are releasing a CD of Alma's music - that's where she would get money depending on the deal. If it's a royalties only deal it will depend on sales.


----------



## Larkenfield

Alma is obviously being paid just like any other performer who would be playing, for instance, at Carnegie Hall or anywhere else. Most of her concerts are sold out. But nobody knows the specific arrangements and people are just guessing, and probably not very accurately either. Most of the money that’s being made by performers today is from concerts and touring and not CDs because there’s so much streaming of music going on, nor are they very happy about it because they mention it. But I doubt if money and finances are uppermost on her mind but the creative excitement around all that she’s doing. I can only guess that, for one reason or another, she’s in a very happy position by not having to worry about the money and financial side because of her successes. She’ll also get publishing rights.


----------



## KenOC

Alma is probably paid as a performer, but she would not get that income for one of her operas (which of course are much costlier to stage than orchestral concerts). OTOH she appears to be receiving commissions for her works, which help pay the bills, and performances of her works by other venues presumably generate the usual fees for works under copyright.

I would expect revenues from CDs and streaming to be vanishingly small.


----------



## PlaySalieri

Larkenfield said:


> Alma is obviously being paid just like any other performer who would be playing, for instance, at Carnegie Hall or anywhere else. Most of her concerts are sold out. But nobody knows the specific arrangements and people are just guessing, and probably not very accurately either. Most of the money that's being made by performers today is from concerts and touring and not CDs because there's so much streaming of music going on, nor are they very happy about it because they mention it. But I doubt if money and finances are uppermost on her mind but the creative excitement around all that she's doing. I can only guess that, for one reason or another, she's in a very happy position by not having to worry about the money and financial side because of her successes. She'll also get publishing rights.


Perhaps she is being paid - but whether that is a nominal sum or close to what an adult pro would be receiving - we don't know.


----------



## PlaySalieri

KenOC said:


> Alma is probably paid as a performer, but she would not get that income for one of her operas (which of course are much costlier to stage than orchestral concerts). OTOH she appears to be receiving commissions for her works, which help pay the bills,* and performances of her works by other venues presumably generate the usual fees for works under copyright.*
> 
> I would expect revenues from CDs and streaming to be vanishingly small.


do you have any evidence that her works are being performed in any situation where she is not the performer?


----------



## s4rC45m101

Her opera has been performed plenty of times without her presence. So has some of her chamber work on occasion although not by any big names.


----------



## Dimace

As someone who is playing the piano for 47 years, I can say only one for the girl: Give her TIME! Now, we can say NOTHING for her. Her violin and piano are OK, her compositions are somehow OK, but we MUST wait to see her progressing to the next LEVELS. Arguing now about her drives us nowhere.


----------



## PlaySalieri

s4rC45m101 said:


> Her opera has been performed plenty of times without her presence. So has some of her chamber work on occasion although not by any big names.


do you have any links to back that up?

Her opera was staged as a 75 minute piece for children in 2018 by vienna state opera - as as Alma lives in Vienna I am near certain she was there in the performance. A short ballet adaptation was put on by Berlin by the Kinder Ballett Kompanie also.

Apart from that I cant find any performances that do not involve Alma as a participant.


----------



## PlaySalieri

The usually very thorough operabase website does not mention Alma at all, for example - in its yearly list of new operas.

https://www.operabase.com/newandrare/en


----------



## PlaySalieri

Dimace said:


> As someone who is playing the piano for 47 years, I can say only one for the girl: Give her TIME! Now, we can say NOTHING for her. Her violin and piano are OK, her compositions are somehow OK, but we MUST wait to see her progressing to the next LEVELS. Arguing now about her drives us nowhere.


Agreed - and I think what is driving this thread is the huge tension between overpraise and over criticism.

Maybe I have been too much in the latter camp in my efforts to bring people down to reality a bit.


----------



## s4rC45m101

stomanek said:


> do you have any links to back that up?
> 
> Her opera was staged as a 75 minute piece for children in 2018 by vienna state opera - as as Alma lives in Vienna I am near certain she was there in the performance. A short ballet adaptation was put on by Berlin by the Kinder Ballett Kompanie also.
> 
> Apart from that I cant find any performances that do not involve Alma as a participant.


Are you implying i'm lying? /s Anyways, the vienna state opera has performed her opera about 30 times and I would guess Alma has been present less than half.

Regarding chamber works I can only remember the name St. Michael Trio from california. They have performed her work on 2-3 occasions.


----------



## PlaySalieri

s4rC45m101 said:


> Are you implying i'm lying? /s Anyways, the vienna state opera has performed her opera about 30 times and I would guess Alma has been present less than half.
> 
> Regarding chamber works I can only remember the name St. Michael Trio from california. They have performed her work on 2-3 occasions.


from wikipedia

*In January 2018, the Vienna State Opera premiered a short (75') adaptation for young children of Deutscher's opera, for a four month run (January-May 2018) on its studio stage*

This is probably what you mean.

I dont see any other performances or any plans to revive. Unless you have some information.

Just because I ask for links does not mean I think someone is lying. Its not unusual to ask for confirmation of a claim.

From what I can gather - Alma's music is mainly played by herself.


----------



## paulbest

s4rC45m101 said:


> Are you implying i'm lying? /s Anyways, the vienna state opera has performed her opera about 30 times and I would guess Alma has been present less than half.
> 
> .


 let me ask you why would the Vienna State opera , perform Alma's opear 
over 30 performances?
another completely ridiculous aspect of the entire CM industry fraud scam institution,,which i do not believe in.

Berlin, London, New York, Vienna, ,,oh brother,,,,
A relatively insignificant , unimportant work?
Yet at the same time, completely ignore modern (past 50 yrs) materwork operas??
Any idea at all? no i guess you don't


----------



## PlaySalieri

paulbest said:


> let me ask you* why would the Vienna State opera , perform Alma's opear
> over 30 performances?*
> another completely ridiculous aspect of the entire CM industry fraud scam institution,,which i do not believe in.
> 
> Berlin, London, New York, Vienna, ,,oh brother,,,,
> A relatively insignificant , unimportant work?
> Yet at the same time, completely ignore modern (past 50 yrs) materwork operas??
> Any idea at all? no i guess you don't


kiddies fare ...................


----------



## s4rC45m101

paulbest said:


> let me ask you why would the Vienna State opera , perform Alma's opear
> over 30 performances?


I don't know. Ask them.


----------



## paulbest

stomanek said:


> from wikipedia
> 
> *In January 2018, the Vienna State Opera premiered a short (75') adaptation for young children of Deutscher's opera, for a four month run (January-May 2018) on its studio stage*
> 
> This is probably what you mean.
> 
> I dont see any other performances or any plans to revive. Unless you have some information.
> 
> Just because I ask for links does not mean I think someone is lying. Its not unusual to ask for confirmation of a claim.
> 
> From what I can gather - Alma's music is mainly played by herself.


yeah studio stage, = a concert hall, where its free open to the public, ,,,the Vienna is such a scam place. 
had Alma scored a modern opera such as Schnittke or Henze,,,the old die hard romantics of Vienna would have slammed the doors shut tight. 
Sorry only the classical sound allowed, the old worn out and proven,,nothing new please,,as our ears are virgin ,,,we can not alter our programing for new music. 
Alma is old school, which is why the Vienna LOVES her to death, She is one of their very own. 
Stinks,


----------



## paulbest

s4rC45m101 said:


> I don't know. Ask them.


what size orch,,,the kids orchestra at that, how long did the orch have to practice to get it right,,,if they practiced it at all, its pretty puerile you know. 
its not Schnittke Henze opera. ,,,
Henze is not allowed within Vienna. only the romantics.


----------



## s4rC45m101

stomanek said:


> from wikipedia
> 
> *In January 2018, the Vienna State Opera premiered a short (75') adaptation for young children of Deutscher's opera, for a four month run (January-May 2018) on its studio stage*
> 
> This is probably what you mean.
> 
> I dont see any other performances or any plans to revive. Unless you have some information.
> 
> Just because I ask for links does not mean I think someone is lying. Its not unusual to ask for confirmation of a claim.
> 
> From what I can gather - Alma's music is mainly played by herself.


I'm not claiming anything. I'm giving you information.

From what I can gather - you asked "do you have any evidence that her works are being performed in any situation where she is not the performer?"

You requested. I delivered. You should thank me /s


----------



## BachIsBest

paulbest said:


> what size orch,,,the kids orchestra at that, how long did the orch have to practice to get it right,,,if they practiced it at all, its pretty puerile you know.
> its not Schnittke Henze opera. ,,,
> Henze is not allowed within Vienna. only the romantics.


Right. No Mozart in Vienna. Only the romantics.


----------



## s4rC45m101

paulbest said:


> what size orch,,,the kids orchestra at that, how long did the orch have to practice to get it right,,,if they practiced it at all, its pretty puerile you know.
> its not Schnittke Henze opera. ,,,
> Henze is not allowed within Vienna. only the romantics.


I'm sorry but I have no idea what you are saying here.


----------



## paulbest

as i define it, pre 1900 = The Romantics, including Bach. 
I just lump the whole sha -bang in one FAT lump,,,oh shame on me to disregard eras,,oh i am so ignorant.
This pre 1900 includes rachmaninov, the post 1900 romantic. He gets shoved back to that broad 200 yrs epoch,,
as i see it pre 1900, post 1900.


----------



## DaveM

paulbest said:


> A relatively insignificant , unimportant work?
> Yet at the same time, completely ignore modern (past 50 yrs) materwork operas??
> Any idea at all? no i guess you don't


Have you heard the 'Cinderella' opera and if so, which 'masterwork operas' of the last 50 years are you comparing it to?


----------



## paulbest

s4rC45m101 said:


> I'm sorry but I have no idea what you are saying here.


Vienna is a bastion for the romantics, Modern composers are pretty much ignored, clearer?


----------



## paulbest

about 2 minutes of that sillyness was quite enough,,,the ONLY reason the Vienna stages it, b/c she is 12 yrs old and its classical/baroque,,,so the Vienna loves their kids so much. 
*new life blood* is how they see it.


----------



## s4rC45m101

paulbest said:


> Vienna is a bastion for the romantics, Modern composers are pretty much ignored, clearer?


I guess that's why Alma has moved there. She seems to like the romantics.


----------



## s4rC45m101

paulbest said:


> about 2 minutes of that sillyness was quite enough,,,the ONLY reason the Vienna stages it, b/c she is 12 yrs old and its classical/baroque,,,so the Vienna loves their kids so much.
> *new life blood* is how they see it.


Maybe her next opera will be more to your taste, although I doubt it


----------



## paulbest

s4rC45m101 said:


> I guess that's why Alma has moved there. She seems to like the romantics.


sure she will make alot of money in that town. the CM industry is looking for bright genius,,,keep the scam going as long as possible.


----------



## DaveM

paulbest said:


> about 2 minutes of that sillyness was quite enough,,,the ONLY reason the Vienna stages it,* b/c she is 12 yrs old* and its classical/baroque,,,so the Vienna loves their kids so much.
> *new life blood* is how they see it.


Hmm, she's getting younger every day.


----------



## PlaySalieri

s4rC45m101 said:


> *I'm not claiming anything. I'm giving you information.
> *
> From what I can gather - you asked "do you have any evidence that her works are being performed in any situation where she is not the performer?"
> 
> You requested. I delivered. You should thank me /s


Moon hoax conspiracy theorists also say they are providing information.

"Information" needs to be verified - I had to verify your claims by doing some research. So I thank myself.


----------



## s4rC45m101

paulbest said:


> sure she will make alot of money in that town. the CM industry is looking for bright genius,,,keep the scam going as long as possible.


Well, lets hope she makes a lot of money. I hope you make a lot of money! I don't know what that "scam" is you're referring to but it must be wonderful for Alma to be in a city that appreciates her. Good for her.


----------



## PlaySalieri

s4rC45m101 said:


> I guess that's why Alma has moved there. She seems to like the romantics.


Everywhere you look in Vienna there are pictures of Mozart. You would think no other composer ever existed there.

Mozart was no romantic.


----------



## PlaySalieri

s4rC45m101 said:


> Well, lets hope she makes a lot of money. I hope you make a lot of money! I don't know what that "scam" is you're referring to but it must be wonderful for Alma to be in a city that appreciates her. Good for her.


just to put paulbests comments into context

he thinks Beethoven is not worth listening to.


----------



## s4rC45m101

stomanek said:


> Moon hoax conspiracy theorists also say they are providing information.
> 
> "Information" needs to be verified - I had to verify your claims by doing some research. So I thank myself.


Oh god you had to do some research. Assumptions were no longer satisfying I guess. Good for you.


----------



## PlaySalieri

s4rC45m101 said:


> Oh god you had to do some research. Assumptions were no longer satisfying I guess. Good for you.


and a good thing I did - since had I accepted your "information" I would now be under the delusion that Cinderella is widely performed.


----------



## paulbest

stomanek said:


> Everywhere you look in Vienna there are pictures of Mozart. You would think no other composer ever existed there.
> 
> Mozart was no romantic.


Vienna is a place cast in stone, that place wants to relish in the good old days, 
The germans too love the old ways, thougha bit less conservative than the Viennese. 
They have pics of Mozart, statues of Mozart, Mozart every where you look to try to promote its *high culture, we are so refined, as we have our beloved hero, saint, our god Mozart from our fair town,,,*...The Viennese are perhaps the most notorious anti-modern group in the world. 
They can not handle the fact that other composers came along and wrote music as interesting and as great as Mozart. 
That thought is blasphemy and will give them all heart attacks at the mere idea that modern composers were as great as Mozart. 
Thus Vienna embraces lil Miss Alma. 
Vienna is a fraud.


----------



## Larkenfield

Dimace said:


> As someone who is playing the piano for 47 years, I can say only one for the girl: Give her TIME! Now, we can say NOTHING for her. Her violin and piano are OK, her compositions are somehow OK, but we MUST wait to see her progressing to the next LEVELS. Arguing now about her drives us nowhere.


Bravo! ...........


----------



## Larkenfield

...............


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## paulbest

OK , so while we are speaking of amazing young talents, lets take at a look at this vid of a young pianist at the Arizona State piano comp, in 2006, 
Now what happened to Anna Han , is a mystery, i do not see her in recordings. 
10 years old, hard to find any fault with this performance, And it highlights one of my favorite composers and his magical Jeux d'eau
For Anna Han in a Ravel recital, i would pay whatever requested.


----------



## paulbest

You see, to win in any of these comps, one must play what will get the win, 
= no modern works allowed, if you play modern you automatically lose. 
Those who play Chopin and Beethoven (=the romantics)get extra points even before 1 note is played....


----------



## DaveM

paulbest said:


> let me ask you why would the Vienna State opera , perform Alma's opear
> over 30 performances?
> another completely ridiculous aspect of the entire CM industry fraud scam institution,,which i do not believe in.
> 
> Berlin, London, New York, Vienna, ,,oh brother,,,,
> A relatively insignificant , unimportant work?
> Yet at the same time, completely ignore modern (past 50 yrs) materwork operas??
> Any idea at all? no i guess you don't


The Finale from Deutscher's 'Cinderella'





A final scene from an opera considered one of the top 21st century operas played at The Met.





I know which one I would enjoy more. I would leave with a big smile on my face!


----------



## Rubens

I'm way too envious of her talent to say anything positive about her, so I'll resort to being a snooty a anonymous critic on a message board and dismiss her music as derivative and jejune to soothe my bruised ego. And no, I haven't heard a note of her music.


----------



## DaveM

Rubens said:


> I'm way too envious of her talent to say anything positive about her, so I'll resort to being a snooty a anonymous critic on a message board and dismiss her music as derivative and jejune to soothe my bruised ego. And no, I haven't heard a note of her music.


I have heard her music, have the same envy and I also dismiss all of it. I could have played the violin and piano, composed operas -and all the rest- like that at age 5...if I had wanted to!


----------



## BachIsBest

paulbest said:


> as i define it, pre 1900 = The Romantics, including Bach.
> I just lump the whole sha -bang in one FAT lump,,,oh shame on me to disregard eras,,oh i am so ignorant.
> This pre 1900 includes rachmaninov, the post 1900 romantic. He gets shoved back to that broad 200 yrs epoch,,
> as i see it pre 1900, post 1900.


Well, when you make up your own definitions for words and use them without telling anyone you'll have to then forgive me for misinterpreting your post.


----------



## paulbest

BachIsBest said:


> Well, when you make up your own definitions for words and use them without telling anyone you'll have to then forgive me for misinterpreting your post.


It just tonight these ideas occured to me,
I came up with this division just now, tonight. . 
Pre 1900, yet don;'t take that so sharply defined, as Debussy has to be in the modern post 1900 group, and Rachmaninov/Sibelius, though both post 1900, I place squarely in the pre 1900 group. 
Just don;t ask , how/why, its my way of hearing each composer. 
Though Szymanowski borders both ways, i place him post 1900, and Scriabin, though more seemingly pre 1900, I place him post 1900. Don;'t ask how/why, its just the way i hear each composer, 
Time is not so strict, its the material/originality of the composition which determines pre/post. 1900. 
I am a strict modernist. We are biased, closed minded and pre-judging.


----------



## vesteel

Although her violin concerto is not my favorite work of hers, it is quite lovely. It's a lot better than her Piano Concerto though


----------



## Enthusiast

paulbest said:


> as i define it, pre 1900 = The Romantics, including Bach.


Why don't you try posting in the same language and with the same definitions as the rest of us? That might help you to join in conversations rather than launching into what appear to be extraordinary statements of opinion stated as fact.


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## PlaySalieri

Ok I have 1 hour spare today looks like I will have to listen to this whole concerto and evaluate properly as I only heard the 1st 5 min

sorry das Lied von der erde which i have never heard - move over Mahler


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## Guest

I admit that I have only heard the violin concerto linked in post #1, and a short section of a piano work on another YT video. I didn't like the VC at all. It's too repetitive and the themes seem to be mundane and unoriginal.

Saying this, it's possible that she has written other work that I may like better. Nor do I doubt that she is very highly gifted in the music department. She may also become, one day, an even more famous artist or composer.

But, but, but ... I'm afraid that I'm maybe a bit old-fashioned in some of my attitudes but it's a fact that I don't really approve of young children being treated in this way, shoved in front of TV cameras, in the glare of the public eye, etc. It's all a bit too commercialised and verging on the vulgar for my tastes.

Personally, if I were the parent of a child musical prodigy - or for that matter a highly intelligent child in any subject area - I'd do my best to foster that innate ability, but at the same time keep him/her out of the limelight as much as possible until they were much older. It could be that such a heavy focus on one area at such a young age could mess up their later life in some way.

I'm not qualified to make anything other than an amateurish opinion in her violin or piano playing skills, but from what I recall of seeing various candidates in the _BBC Young Musician Of the Year _competitions over several years I wouldn't have thought that AD is not in the top category of artists who have competed in the past. I can recall better violinists and pianists, some as young as she is.


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## PlaySalieri

Partita said:


> I admit that I have only heard the violin concerto linked in post #1, and a short section of a piano work on another YT video. I didn't like the VC at all. It's too repetitive and the themes seem to be mundane and unoriginal.
> 
> Saying this, it's possible that she has written other work that I may like better. Nor do I doubt that she is very highly gifted in the music department. She may also become, one day, an even more famous artist or composer.
> 
> But, but, but ... I'm afraid that I'm maybe a bit old-fashioned in some of my attitudes but it's a fact that I don't really approve of young children being treated in this way, shoved in front of TV cameras, in the glare of the public eye, etc. It's all a bit too commercialised and verging on the vulgar for my tastes.
> 
> Personally, if I were the parent of a child musical prodigy - or for that matter a highly intelligent child in any subject area - I'd do my best to foster that innate ability, but at the same time keep him/her out of the limelight as much as possible until they were much older. It could be that such a heavy focus on one area at such a young age could mess up their later life in some way.
> 
> I'm not qualified to make anything other than an amateurish opinion in her violin or piano playing skills, but from what I recall of seeing various candidates in the _BBC Young Musician Of the Year _competitions over several years I wouldn't have thought that AD is not in the top category of artists who have competed in the past. I can recall better violinists and pianists, some as young as she is.


Well I do agree with your comments on this subject.

Of course it's not for us to say - as we are not her parents. As has been pointed out - people who had conventional childhoods can also find adulthood tough.

Jennifer Pike won the BBC young musician back in 2002 at 12 years old - fighting off some fierce competition. She now has a flourishing career with recording contracts etc. She worked hard though through music school -conservatoire etc - and it paid off.

But I understand Alma wants to be a composer - so her instrumental skills are secondary. From what I have read - she does have some input from a composition teacher - but not proper formal training - deep study of harmony etc and favours the self taught method.

What can one say - it will be interesting to see where she goes with her music.


----------



## Bigbang

Bigbang said:


> You are blaming the romantic composers of the past for what is happening now??


But can one also ask the same question about any modern recording? What new recording of any masterpieces of the greats take place of your 20 recordings of your favored masterpiece. Too be clear I am referring to symphonic works with "star" soloists.

Kind of makes me wonder if the musicians are not like the "old" ones...hectic lives, different take on music...some thing is amiss it seems....why the craving for old recordings before the new age of recording....then again I might be bias too.


----------



## Larkenfield

I question whether she lacks “proper formal training” in composition. There’s a very skillfully done fugue in the first movement of her violin concerto. How many composition students receive instruction in the writing of fugues? And if anyone comes along and says that hers is not good enough or well done, I would question their own values or formal training. Fugue is the fundamental study of counterpoint. That’s the value of hearing her violin concerto more than once to notice such important details. Even if hers is not the greatest fugue of all time, I felt that it was skillfully done and worthy of praise. And of course, no one has really commented on her orchestration, and I thought that was rather well done too and she is studying orchestration. I consider these rather advanced studies for her age and she’ll only continue to get better at it in the future because there are indications that she’s receiving excellent formal training.


----------



## PlaySalieri

Larkenfield said:


> I question whether she lacks "proper formal training" in composition. There's a very skillfully done fugue in the first movement of her violin concerto. How many composition students receive instruction in the writing of fugues? And if anyone comes along and says that hers is not good enough or well done, I would question their own values or formal training. Fugue is the fundamental study of counterpoint. That's the value of hearing her violin concerto more than once to notice such important details. Even if hers is not the greatest fugue of all time, I felt that it was skillfully done and worthy of praise. And of course, no one has really commented on her orchestration, and I thought that was rather well done too and she is studying orchestration. I consider these rather advanced studies for her age and she'll only continue to get better at it in the future because there are indications that she's receiving excellent formal training.


apparently she had more regular composition lessons when she was much younger but is now more or less self taught with occasional outside input


----------



## Larkenfield

stomanek said:


> apparently she had more regular composition lessons when she was much younger but is now more or less self taught with occasional outside input


I'm not surprised. Don't all composers who have genuine talent go beyond their teachers? They certainly aren't dependent on them because they have their own ideas. They appear to pick up what they need as they go along.


----------



## Enthusiast

^ Yes, they do go beyond their teachers but they usually (I think) study with someone noted until they feel they are ready to "go public". In this case it may be that Deutscher has been before the public ear long before she had developed anything like a distinctive and ready voice. I can't help feeling that is a mistake and a rather arrogant one at that.


----------



## PlaySalieri

Enthusiast said:


> ^ Yes, they do go beyond their teachers but they usually (I think) study with someone noted until they feel they are ready to "go public". In this case it may be that Deutscher has been before the public ear long before she had developed anything like a distinctive and ready voice. I can't help feeling that is a mistake and a rather* arrogant* one at that.


I think that is too strong a word

audacious - is probably more appropriate.

As one of the naysayers on this thread - i honestly look forward to hearing Alma's latest piece and can only hope she will free herself from the shackles of 19thC musical idiom. Let's have something principally new! Music that has all the freshness and imaginative colour one might expect from a fledgling but ambitious 21stC composer keen to have her voice heard. We need music that speaks to the modern world, not the dusty old past.


----------



## Merl

Her future is down to her and her parents. If she gets oversaturated with mainstream coverage and becomes a darling of the media she'll end up as a curio like many others but I suspect she's shruder than that. I hope she and those around her make wise decisions.


----------



## Larkenfield

I think she's just doing fine and has her own voice whether others hear it or not in the idiom that she's using. Check her list of compositions. Her Violin Concerto in G minor was written at age 9, revised at age 12! I hope she continues to ignore those who try to interfere with her choice of style at this point in her life and development. If one doesn't care for it, then listen to somebody else. Anyone who appreciates the Mendelssohn or Bruch approach to writing a violin concerto will I believe enjoy hers and I believe that she will continue to advance. She's popular with her audience because people are interested in whatever she writes next, and she is prolific enough, productive enough, to satisfy them, and I think that's unprecedented in modern times. It's like what used to exist between a composer and audience. The audience expected something new that was worthy of being heard, and I think she's doing that. She is a highly productive musician, not only as a composer but as an instrumentalist and there's nothing arrogant about her approach. It's what some gifted prodigies do. I'm still amazed that she wrote her violin concerto at the age of 9 and then revised it at age 12.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alma_Deutscher


----------



## DaveM

Whether people want to admit it or not, the classical music of the 19th century still resonates with more classical music listeners than any other period (regardless of polls on this forum). I’m wondering what would have been the response to Alma Deutscher’s works if they were highly modern/contemporary.


----------



## Fabulin

DaveM said:


> I'm wondering what would have been the response to Alma Deutscher's works if they were highly modern/contemporary.


complete indifference


----------



## PlaySalieri

Larkenfield said:


> I think she's just doing fine and has her own voice whether others hear it or not in the idiom that she's using. Check her list of compositions. Her Violin Concerto in G minor was written in age 9, revised at aged 12! I hope she continues to ignore those who try to interfere with her choice of style at this point in her life and development. If one doesn't care for it, then listen to somebody else. Anyone who appreciates the Mendelssohn or Bruch approach to writing a violin concerto will I believe enjoy hers and I believe that she will continue to advance. She's popular to her audience because people are interested in whatever she writes next, and she is prolific enough, productive enough, to satisfy them, and I think that's unprecedented in modern times. It's like what used to exist between a composer and audience. The audience expected something new that was worthy of being heard, and I think she's doing that. She is a highly productive musician, not only as a composer but as an instrumentalist and there's nothing arrogant about her approach. It's what some gifted prodigies do. I'm still amazed that she wrote her violin concerto at the age of nine and then revised it at age 12.
> 
> https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alma_Deutscher


OK well good luck to her then and all her fans.


----------



## PlaySalieri

I did manage to listen through the 1st mvt of Alma's concerto.

She obviously has good technical skills to be able to stitch together this work. I understand why people use the word pastiche when describing it. There is hardly any unity at all. Melodic invention is, in my view, weak, and where it rises above the average - Paganini and other composers deserve the credit.

There is no way that this compares with what Mozart was doing at the same age. 

I cant imagine that if Alma had a reputable regular composition teacher he would have advised this piece to go public. There may be thousands of juvenelia just like this that were used a exercises for improvement.


Harsh? Maybe - but I make no allowances for the composer being a child. Classical music is a very serious art - and if people put their compositions out there for the public to hear - they should be ready to hear criticism as well as praise.


----------



## DaveM

PlaySalieri said:


> I did manage to listen through the 1st mvt of Alma's concerto.
> 
> She obviously has good technical skills to be able to stitch together this work. I understand why people use the word pastiche when describing it. There is hardly any unity at all. Melodic invention is, in my view, weak, and where it rises above the average - Paganini and other composers deserve the credit.


I heard unity and the fact that it reminds of other composers (actually more Mendelssohn than Paganini) doesn't mean they get the primary credit.



> There is no way that this compares with what Mozart was doing at the same age.
> 
> I cant imagine that if Alma had a reputable regular composition teacher he would have advised this piece to go public. There may be thousands of juvenelia just like this that were used a exercises for improvement.


And there may be practically none.



> Harsh? Maybe - but I make no allowances for the composer being a child. Classical music is a very serious art - and if people put their compositions out there for the public to hear - they should be ready to hear criticism as well as praise.


Criticism is fine as long as it compares apples with apples. Not taking into account that the composer was 12 years old limits credibility of the criticism.


----------



## Larkenfield

PlaySalieri said:


> I did manage to listen through the 1st mvt of Alma's concerto.
> 
> She obviously has good technical skills to be able to stitch together this work. I understand why people use the word pastiche when describing it. There is hardly any unity at all. Melodic invention is, in my view, weak, and where it rises above the average - Paganini and other composers deserve the credit.
> 
> There is no way that this compares with what Mozart was doing at the same age.
> 
> I cant imagine that if Alma had a reputable regular composition teacher he would have advised this piece to go public. There may be thousands of juvenelia just like this that were used a exercises for improvement.
> 
> Harsh? Maybe - but I make no allowances for the composer being a child. Classical music is a very serious art - and if people put their compositions out there for the public to hear - they should be ready to hear criticism as well as praise.


Oh, most definitely. You make no allowances? That's understandable: One could possibly be seriously injured listening to a violin concerto by a 12 year-old prodigy that might not sound as good as Paganini, especially one movement of it rather than in its entirety. If music is as serious as that then I suggest never risking anything instead of perhaps finding something to delight in with her youthful progress and development. She first wrote her concerto at nine! Imagine offering such a critique to a talented young composer/musician who's now barely in her teens. That's the kind of nonsense she has to put up with from some of the CM adults as she's played and performed in the US (including successfully at Carnegie Hall), Europe, Israel, China, praised by Zubin Mehta, Simon Rattle, and Thomas Hampson, the American lyric baritone, who's just recorded one of her songs. It looks to me that's she's doing just fine for her age and some of you experts know virtually nothing about her.


----------



## PlaySalieri

DaveM said:


> I heard unity and the fact that it reminds of other composers (actually more Mendelssohn than Paganini) doesn't mean they get the primary credit.
> 
> And there may be practically none.
> 
> Criticism is fine as long as it compares apples with apples. Not taking into account that the composer was 12 years old limits credibility of the criticism.


Well apples with apples did you not read the part where I say the concerto does not compare with Mozart at 12 or even before. If Alma is being touted as a 21stC mini Mozart I think that needs to be scrutinised.

It may be a good effort taking into account her age but in my view it's not worth listening to.

I have a friend who was a professional viola player and now teaches. he once showed me with pride a manuscript of his - a 4 movement symphony he composed when he was 10. This was before the internet age. His parents also had little interest in music - a working class couple.

I honestly think the big difference between Alma and many other young composers is that she has had the exposure. The media love stories about wunderkind extraordinaire and the public love it even more.


----------



## PlaySalieri

Larkenfield said:


> Oh, most definitely. You make no allowances? That's understandable: One could possibly be seriously injured listening to a violin concerto by a 12 year-old prodigy that might not sound as good as Paganini, *especially one movement of it rather than in its entirety. *If music is as serious as that then I suggest never risking anything instead of perhaps finding something to delight in with her youthful progress and development. She first wrote her concerto at nine! Imagine offering such a critique to a talented young composer/musician who's now barely in her teens... no, not harsh at all. That's the kind of nonsense she has to put up with from some of the adults as she's played and performed in the US (including successfully at Carnegie Hall), Europe, Isreal, China, praised by Zubin Mehta and Thomas Hampson, the American lyric baritone, who's just recorded one of her songs.


I don't have time to listen to substandard music and if I start listening to such a piece I would be a fool to listen to the whole thing.


----------



## DavidA

Post deleted.....................


----------



## KenOC

Alma Deutscher is a threat to the very bases of Western civilization. By now, that must be evident to all. Alma delenda est!


----------



## Larkenfield

PlaySalieri said:


> I don't have time to listen to substandard music and if I start listening to such a piece I would be a fool to listen to the whole thing.


You know one movement of a violin concerto and virtually nothing else about her, period, nor have you probably heard her outstanding Bach Concerto performances on violin and piano (already posted) recorded in Israel. Whatever her faults and shortcomings, you've just been outvoted by Zubin Mehta and Thomas Hampson... Play Salieri instead.


----------



## PlaySalieri

DavidA said:


> Post deleted.....................


very wise.

I would further add that I don't think this is the correct forum for hearing Alma's work since she is at a very early stage in her career. The correct place is in musical establishments where staff have the training to encourage, help and assess young talents.


----------



## PlaySalieri

Larkenfield said:


> You know one movement of a violin concerto and virtually nothing about her. Period.


I probably know as much as you about the composer. Some facts.


----------



## Larkenfield

PlaySalieri said:


> I probably know as much as you about the composer. Some facts.


Try reading the thread from the beginning before burning your bridges and embarrassing yourself any further...


----------



## PlaySalieri

Larkenfield said:


> Try reading the thread from the beginning before burning your bridges and embarrassing yourself...


I have read through Alma's biography.

what else do you imagine I should know?

I judge music on its own merits - not on the factual circumstances of the composer.

You and a small handful of others have taken up Alma's cause.

why?


----------



## Larkenfield

PlaySalieri said:


> I have read through Alma's biography.
> 
> what else do you imagine I should know?
> 
> I judge music on its own merits - not on the factual circumstances of the composer.
> 
> You and a small handful of others have taken up Alma's cause.
> 
> why?


That's what I thought. How about a successful concert at Carnegie Hall? Is that a big enough handful for you?


----------



## DaveM

PlaySalieri said:


> I don't have time to listen to substandard music and if I start listening to such a piece I would be a fool to listen to the whole thing.


Interesting. You had no time to listen to the whole work, but had all sorts of time to criticize it and, apparently, read her biography. Sort of @ss backwards!


----------



## PlaySalieri

Larkenfield said:


> That's what I thought. How about a sold out concert at Carnegie Hall? Is that a big enough handful for you?


I already told you - the media and public loves a wunderkind - especially a cute one like Alma.

She had a prime time 60 minute show on CBS so of course it sold out.

Just publicity hype

and you have bought into it

handful - I mean people on this board


----------



## PlaySalieri

DaveM said:


> Interesting. You had no time to listen to the whole work, but had all sorts of time to criticize it and, apparently, read her biography. Sort of @ss backwards!


I enjoy debating on this forum so have time for that - and I did some brief research on Alma since I am in the discussion.

but I dont have time for poor music - no


----------



## Larkenfield

PlaySalieri said:


> I already told you - the media and public loves a wunderkind - especially a cute one like Alma.
> 
> She had a prime time 60 minute show on CBS so of course it sold out.
> 
> Just publicity hype
> 
> and you have bought into it
> 
> handful - I mean people on this board


Your fly-by-night criticisms are not well informed. You understand nothing about her life and career, while others do:

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/06/14/world/europe/alma-deutscher-prodigy-mozart.html


----------



## PlaySalieri

Larkenfield said:


> You understand nothing about her life and career, while others do:
> 
> https://www.nytimes.com/2019/06/14/world/europe/alma-deutscher-prodigy-mozart.html


I have read that article.

I told you - I base my comments purely on the music.


----------



## Larkenfield

PlaySalieri said:


> I have read that article.
> 
> I told you - I base my comments purely on the music.


Good luck with those unnecessarily harsh and uninformed comments...


----------



## DaveM

PlaySalieri said:


> You and a small handful of others have taken up Alma's cause.
> 
> why?


(Speaking for myself) Because we have never seen anything quite like this before and never will again. She may not rise to the level of a Mozart -and given the state of CM, she likely won't- but this is the sort of combination of gifts that resulted in a Mozart, a prodigy accomplished before mid-teenage at the piano, violin and composition. Plus, she appears to genuinely love what she's doing and doesn't appear to be forced into any of it. I'm surprised at those who lightly dismiss her accomplishments. You're missing a great moment in present classical music history.


----------



## Guest

Larkenfield said:


> Try reading the thread from the beginning before burning your bridges and embarrassing yourself any further...


I'm sure he has - given that stomanek was in at the beginning!

There is a sticky about name change policy, and there used to be announcements, but it hasn't happened yet...

Username Change Policy


----------



## DaveM

MacLeod said:


> I'm sure he has - given that stomanek was in at the beginning!
> 
> There is a sticky about name change policy, and there used to be announcements, but it hasn't happened yet...
> 
> Username Change Policy


Well that just sucks! I should have known! After all this discussion and- I know, with my new handle, I'll stir the pot anew with post #284. I'd be ashamed of critiquing a work without listening to all of it. Not to mention that he had to know that almost no one would know that he has already taken an active part in this thread. We like to think we get to know people here after awhile. Personally, I don't like being suckered.


----------



## Enthusiast

It amazes me what some people are hearing and reading into this tawdry childhood piece and the publicity about what she has done since, and how strongly they feel about it all! Maybe she does have a future but I will be surprised to see her rise above working as a composer of film music. No shame in that but no Messiah (or Mozart), either.


----------



## PlaySalieri

Enthusiast said:


> It amazes me what some people are hearing and reading into this tawdry childhood piece and the publicity about what she has done since, and how strongly they feel about it all! Maybe she does have a future but I will be surprised to see her rise above working as *a composer of film music.* No shame in that but no Messiah (or Mozart), either.


Competition to get into film music is red hot

I wouldn't bet on it.


----------



## PlaySalieri

OK sorry I, formerly stomanek at TC have changed my username to Play Salieri


----------



## Guest

MacLeod said:


> I'm sure he has - given that stomanek was in at the beginning!
> 
> There is a sticky about name change policy, and there used to be announcements, but it hasn't happened yet...
> 
> Username Change Policy


It seems odd that there's been no announcement. Earlier today in another thread I responded to a post by this member not realising that it was someone with whom I have exchanged opinions. As it happens, it didn't matter much but I would have liked to have known in advance.


----------



## DaveM

Enthusiast said:


> It amazes me what some people are hearing and reading into this tawdry childhood piece and the publicity about what she has done since, and how strongly they feel about it all! Maybe she does have a future but I will be surprised to see her rise above working as a composer of film music. No shame in that but no Messiah (or Mozart), either.


It amazes me that anyone would read into what has been said that she is a Mozart or destined to become one.


----------



## Fabulin

PlaySalieri said:


> Competition to get into film music is red hot
> 
> I wouldn't bet on it.


Competition was red hot in the 1930s, 1940s, 1960s, 1980s and 1990s. Now it's an all-time low in quality. Most of great composers of film music nowadays are dead, retired, or close to either state. The generation that was supposed to succeed them has so far failed spectacularily. Great field for someone like Deutscher, who has some sort of backing, to enter.


----------



## PlaySalieri

Fabulin said:


> Competition was red hot in the 1930s, 1940s, 1960s, 1980s and 1990s. Now it's an all-time low in quality. Most of great composers of film music nowadays are dead, retired, or close to either state. The generation that was supposed to succeed them has so far failed spectacularily. Great field for someone like Deutscher, *who has some sort of backing*, to enter.


I doubt if that will come into it. Directors know what they want - whether Alma has backing or not it only matters if she can deliver the goods.


----------



## mikeh375

Deutscher is going to have to learn new tricks for the film industry. I can't see that happening at present. She would also have to toughen up considerably as she gets older if she's going to break through and survive the film industry, just like many of us had to. Her innate ability is absolutely no guarantee of anything and there are probably non-reading composers who will actually have a better feel for non-digetic music than her. This is not to say she couldn't do it, she might become excellent at scoring, but as I say, she has a long way to go and lots to learn for that discipline.
Her future and potential would be wasted in media imv.


----------



## science

The fundamental thesis behind these threads used to be that since this child prodigy makes music like this, all contemporary composers should, so progressive music is illegitimate. I'm not sure that's still going on because I don't spend much time around here anymore, but that's what it used to be. 

It's pretty lousy to use a talented little girl as a pawn in ideological warfare. 

But at least it will be funny when she's nineteen and composing serial music with electronic instruments. "What a waste," they'll say. But hopefully she'll be having a good time.


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## PlaySalieri

science said:


> The fundamental thesis behind these threads used to be that since this child prodigy makes music like this, all contemporary composers should, so progressive music is illegitimate. I'm not sure that's still going on because I don't spend much time around here anymore, but that's what it used to be.
> 
> It's pretty lousy to use a talented little girl as a pawn in ideological warfare.
> 
> But at least it will be funny when she's nineteen and composing serial music with electronic instruments. "What a waste," they'll say. But hopefully she'll be having a good time.


Few are saying that progressive music is illegitimate

about 3 perhaps

the rest of us are living in the 21st C


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## DaveM

science said:


> The fundamental thesis behind these threads used to be that since this child prodigy makes music like this, all contemporary composers should, so progressive music is illegitimate. I'm not sure that's still going on because I don't spend much time around here anymore, but that's what it used to be.
> 
> It's pretty lousy to use a talented little girl as a pawn in ideological warfare.
> 
> But at least it will be funny when she's nineteen and composing serial music with electronic instruments. "What a waste," they'll say. But hopefully she'll be having a good time.


You obviously didn't read this thread and go on to say you're not sure progressive music is being dissed, but then assume it is, claiming some sort of 'ideological warfare'. As for the 'serial music with electronic instruments forecast', what would your forecast have been if she started off at age 9 composing serial music?


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## science

DaveM said:


> You obviously didn't read this thread


No, that's true.



DaveM said:


> what would your forecast have been if she started off at age 9 composing serial music?


Neo-Renaissance vocal polyphony.


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## DavidA

science said:


> The fundamental thesis behind these threads used to be that since this child prodigy makes music like this, all contemporary composers should, so *progressive music is illegitimate.* I'm not sure that's still going on because I don't spend much time around here anymore, but that's what it used to be.
> 
> It's pretty lousy to use a talented little girl as a pawn in ideological warfare.
> 
> But at least it will be funny when she's nineteen and composing serial music with electronic instruments. "What a waste," they'll say. But hopefully she'll be having a good time.


Depends what you mean by 'progressive' music. I don't find music I dislike 'progressive' in any way whatsoever. Some of the simply awful sounding stuff that emerges from my radio that makes me reach for the 'off' switch in a hurry I find regressive - not progressive - to music and to humanity in general.


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## Fabulin

DavidA said:


> Depends what you mean by 'progressive' music. I don't find music I dislike 'progressive' in any way whatsoever. Some of the simply awful sounding stuff that emerges from my radio that makes me reach for the 'off' switch in a hurry I find regressive - not progressive - to music and to humanity in general.


It's as progressive as brutalism compared to art deco.


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## Rangstrom

Any one beating the drum for this young lady should take the time to read the Ruth Slenczynska autoboigraphy "Forbidden Childhood". It shows what damage the obsession for prodigies can do. I've witnessed a couple of instances in my hometown the last 2 decades (one young golfer/one young composer). Neither progressed past the hype stage.

Alma, in my opinion, is nowhere close to a professional violinist or pianist. She may get to that level on one or the other (most likely not both--was it Julia Fischer that recorded as both for a time?), but it will take time and practice.

I'm bothered more by the composing. What I've heard is fairly vapid (and I enjoy Romantic music very much). So she composes. Most, if not all well know composers, also did at a young age. You don't hear much of it (outside of Mendelssohn) because it went into the trash bin. I mean really how many times do you listen to a pre-k150 or so Mozart composition? And he had the help of a composer father and did a lot of arranging of other composers' works. These gimmick works should be allowed to fade away.


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## Larkenfield

Rangstrom said:


> Any one beating the drum for this young lady should take the time to read the Ruth Slenczynska autoboigraphy "Forbidden Childhood". It shows what damage the obsession for prodigies can do. I've witnessed a couple of instances in my hometown the last 2 decades (one young golfer/one young composer). Neither progressed past the hype stage.
> 
> Alma, in my opinion, is nowhere close to a professional violinist or pianist. She may get to that level on one or the other (most likely not both--was it Julia Fischer that recorded as both for a time?), but it will take time and practice.
> 
> I'm bothered more by the composing. What I've heard is fairly vapid (and I enjoy Romantic music very much). So she composes. Most, if not all well know composers, also did at a young age. You don't hear much of it (outside of Mendelssohn) because it went into the trash bin. I mean really how many times do you listen to a pre-k150 or so Mozart composition? And he had the help of a composer father and did a lot of arranging of other composers' works. These gimmick works should be allowed to fade away.


Will some of you stop generalizing about prodigies! Of course, many examples can be cited of prodigies who have not fared well either because of parental pressures or the pressure they have put themselves under. But it's hard to read the ignorance posted on Mozart or Deutscher. I have listened to many of Mozart's pre-K150 works and found them remarkable in their inspiration and perfection, such as his 4th Symphony written at the age of 8 that I would never discount as being worth hearing. It's more than juvenalia. Alma has given no alarming indications that being a prodigy as a musician and composer has unbalanced her in any way. And why should it when she's obviously doing what she loves and virtually everything she has written has been published and performed by others or herself. Will some of you pleased become more informed? Her Violin Concerto was first written at age 9 and then later revised at 12, and I do not view it as a failure! Lyric baritone Thomas Hampson has recently recorded one of her songs, plus recognition by Zubin Mehta and Simon Rattle as a genuine prodigy. Where is the problem? The problem in you, you and you, that's what. She has given evidence of being a very well-balanced, happy creative youngster, but some of you can only ring the alarm bell and cannot be convince otherwise, despite being familar with only fragments of her music and life, because you've already judged her as a failure because of the Classical and Romantic idiom she's writing in at the age of 14 that she's in love with. I've heard her Violin Concerto in G Minor a number of times and greatly enjoyed it, more each time, as it starts off with a brief quote from Bach's great Violin Chaconne, plus it has a skillfully written fugue in the first movement... I lothe the way that some have kick her music and reputation around like a cheap tin-can when she's had a series of successes, including a success at Carnegie Hall, and some of you are unable to keep your cynical hands off her and simply allow her to develop. I welcome and celebrate her presence on stage and in the concert halls.


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## DaveM

Rangstrom said:


> Any one beating the drum for this young lady should take the time to read the Ruth Slenczynska autoboigraphy "Forbidden Childhood". It shows what damage the obsession for prodigies can do. I've witnessed a couple of instances in my hometown the last 2 decades (one young golfer/one young composer). Neither progressed past the hype stage.


Anecdotes don't count for much. Yes, prodigies face obstacles and some may crash and burn, but earlier I listed a number of prodigy pianists and violinists who have succeeded as top recording artists.



> Alma, in my opinion, is nowhere close to a professional violinist or pianist. She may get to that level on one or the other (most likely not both--was it Julia Fischer that recorded as both for a time?), but it will take time and practice.


Given the definition of a professional being someone who gets paid/makes an income from what they do, as opposed to this being a hobby or pastime, she is a professional. Compare her to other professionals if you like.



> I'm bothered more by the composing. What I've heard is fairly vapid (and I enjoy Romantic music very much). So she composes. Most, if not all well know composers, also did at a young age. You don't hear much of it (outside of Mendelssohn) because it went into the trash bin. I mean really how many times do you listen to a pre-k150 or so Mozart composition? And he had the help of a composer father and did a lot of arranging of other composers' works. These gimmick works should be allowed to fade away.


'Vapid' is an awful word and when I see it used, I dismiss the criticism that goes with it. Yes, many well-known composers composed at a young age and some of those early compositions drew attention _prior to the 20th century_. Name one composer in the present or past century that composed classical works at a young age that drew this sort of attention. You may call it a gimmick or a fad, but there's no proof that it is at the moment.


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## Bigbang

Larkenfield said:


> Will some of you stop generalizing about prodigies! Of course, many examples can be cited of prodigies who have not fared well either because of parental pressures or the pressure they have put themselves under. But it's hard to read the ignorance posted on Mozart or Deutscher. I have listened to many of Mozart's pre-K150 works and found them remarkable in their inspiration and perfection, such as his 4th Symphony written at the age of 8 that I would never discount as being worth hearing. It's more than juvenalia. Alma has given no alarming indications that being a prodigy as a musician and composer have unbalanced her in any way. And why should it when she's obviously doing what she loves and virtually everything she has written has been published and performed by others or herself. Will some of you pleased become more informed? Her Violin Concerto was first written at age nine and then later revised at 12, and I do not view it as a disappointment! Lyric baritone Thomas Hampson has recently recorded one of her songs, plus accolades for her past efforts by Zubin Mehta and Simon Rattle. Where is the problem? The problem in you, you and you, that's what. She has given evidence of being a very well-balanced, happy creative youngster, but some of you can only ring the alarm bell and cannot be convince otherwise, despite being familar with only fragments of music and life because you've already judged her as a failure because of Classical and Romantic idiom she's writing in because at the age of 14 she's in love with it. I've heard her Violin Concerto in G Minor a number of times and greatly enjoyed it, more each time, as it starts of with a brief quote from Bach's great Violin Chaconne, plus it has a skillfully written fugue in the first movement. I lothe the way that some have kick her music and reputation around like a cheap tin-can when she's had a series of successes, including a success at Carnegie Hall, and some of you are unable to keep your cynical hands off her and simply allow her to develop. I welcome her presence.


Well said. It does not take a psychologist to see that many of the comments and how it is being said is more about "us" the posters, and not the artists. I mean how much time is devoted just to reading and posting and why? I guess each of us have different ideas of what we are looking for in this classical site. If someone wishes to express an opinion on Alma D in less positive way (I get that big names in the business will heap praise on someone because it is a form of politeness) certainly it can be done without vitriolic overtones. Personally I cannot estimate her ability but I do have thoughts on genius and what I think it means. And just as in physics it is hard for even the most brilliant mind to just become an Einstein because of where the math/physics is at. I see the same thing for music...where does a person of talent go from here?

And, I really like Mozart early keyboard/violin sonatas....to me it just really makes me smile and I never really tire of it because it is so easy to enjoy....that is a sure sign of genius regardless of age.


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## Hiawatha

I voted "yes, I love it".

I'm very impressed by her.


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## PlaySalieri

DaveM said:


> Anecdotes don't count for much. Yes, prodigies face obstacles and some may crash and burn, but earlier I listed a number of prodigy pianists and violinists who have succeeded as top recording artists.
> 
> *Given the definition of a professional being someone who gets paid/makes an income from what they do, as opposed to this being a hobby or pastime, she is a professional. Compare her to other professionals if you like.*
> 
> 'Vapid' is an awful word and when I see it used, I dismiss the criticism that goes with it. Yes, many well-known composers composed at a young age and some of those early compositions drew attention _prior to the 20th century_. Name one composer in the present or past century that composed classical works at a young age that drew this sort of attention. You may call it a gimmick or a fad, but there's no proof that it is at the moment.


I think he is referring to her playing standard.

She is nowhere near the standard of a concert soloist though she plays well compared with many young violinists her age.


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## PlaySalieri

Larkenfield said:


> Will some of you stop generalizing about prodigies! Of course, many examples can be cited of prodigies who have not fared well either because of parental pressures or the pressure they have put themselves under. But it's hard to read the ignorance posted on Mozart or Deutscher. * I have listened to many of Mozart's pre-K150 works and found them remarkable in their inspiration and perfection,* such as his 4th Symphony written at the age of 8 that I would never discount as being worth hearing. It's more than juvenalia. Alma has given no alarming indications that being a prodigy as a musician and composer has unbalanced her in any way. And why should it when she's obviously doing what she loves and virtually everything she has written has been published and performed by others or herself. Will some of you pleased become more informed? Her Violin Concerto was first written at age 9 and then later revised at 12, and I do not view it as a failure! Lyric baritone Thomas Hampson has recently recorded one of her songs, plus accolades for her past efforts by Zubin Mehta and Simon Rattle. Where is the problem? The problem in you, you and you, that's what. She has given evidence of being a very well-balanced, happy creative youngster, but some of you can only ring the alarm bell and cannot be convince otherwise, despite being familar with only fragments of her music and life, because you've already judged her as a failure because of the Classical and Romantic idiom she's writing in at the age of 14 that she's in love with. I've heard her Violin Concerto in G Minor a number of times and greatly enjoyed it, more each time, as it starts off with a brief quote from Bach's great Violin Chaconne, plus it has a skillfully written fugue in the first movement... I lothe the way that some have kick her music and reputation around like a cheap tin-can when she's had a series of successes, including a success at Carnegie Hall, and some of you are unable to keep your cynical hands off her and simply allow her to develop. I welcome and celebrate her presence on stage and in the concert halls.


Me too - and I disagree with him there. Mozart's early works are played and recorded all the time.


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## PlaySalieri

Hiawatha said:


> I voted "yes, I love it".
> 
> I'm very impressed by her.


Did you listen to the whole thing?

Be honest.


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## Enthusiast

The thing that surprises me with very early Mozart is how recognisable a lot of it is as Mozart. I am not one of those who think that Mozart's claim to genius rests in his late works (stupendous though many of them are) alone.


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## science

DavidA said:


> Depends what you mean by 'progressive' music. I don't find music I dislike 'progressive' in any way whatsoever. Some of the simply awful sounding stuff that emerges from my radio that makes me reach for the 'off' switch in a hurry I find regressive - not progressive - to music and to humanity in general.


Clever wordplay but it doesn't materially affect my point.


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## Bigbang

Enthusiast said:


> The thing that surprises me with very early Mozart is how recognisable a lot of it is as Mozart. I am not one of those who think that Mozart's claim to genius rests in his late works (stupendous though many of them are) alone.


Let's face it:To listen to any great mature work of great genius usually requires an understanding of what exactly it is you are listening to. I am not a person with a degree in music, cannot read a score, cannot know what I might listen for compared to, say a professor or learned music expert. So naturally "easy" Mozart where I am "spoon" fed pleasant melodies make me take notice. Like a baby, I open my mouth, and food on a spoon goes in my mouth, no work or intellectual rigor is required. I open my ears and let Mozart do the work with his so called "immature" works. How easy is that. Maybe to sell classical music to the public, start at baby steps them onward.....


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## Enthusiast

I'm like you in having no specialised musical knowledge. So what? Great music wasn't written for professors and we call it great because it gets through to us in some meaningful way without our knowing (or caring!) how it achieves that. Personally, I think it is always best to start (as a listener) with the towering masterpieces even if they are more "difficult". It isn't difficult to do so in my experience. And they tend to last you a lifetime filled with new discoveries in them.


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## Larkenfield

Alma Deutscher at 9:






At 12, with tremendous growth and maturity:






She has a much sweeter and warmer sound. She hears in tune but there can be some inaccuracies of pitch that she needs to watch out for - and I'm sure she will as she continues to mature. The orchestration has a much richer sound in her revised score, and she has exceptional poise and professionalism as a performer. It's natural and she looks entirely comfortable standing in front of the orchestra and audience. This is the growth and development that many of her listeners are interested in following, in the same way that Mozart's early works represent his growth and development into his full maturity. But she's not trying to be another Mozart, only herself, and she's repeatedly said so. That's good, because I believe that Mozart was way ahead in his development as a composer. Mozart at 8:


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## PlaySalieri

Larkenfield said:


> Alma Deutscher at 9:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> At 12, with tremendous growth and maturity:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> She has a much sweeter and warmer sound. She hears in tune but there can be some inaccuracies of pitch that she needs to watch out for - and I'm sure she will as she continues to mature. The orchestration has a much richer sound in her revised score, and she has exceptional poise and professionalism as a performer. It's natural and she looks entirely comfortable standing in front of the orchestra and audience. This is the growth and development that many of her listeners are interested in following, in the same way that Mozart's early works represent his growth and development into his full maturity. But she's not trying to be another Mozart, only herself, and she's repeatedly said so. That's good, because I believe that Mozart was ahead in his development as a composer. Mozart at 8:


There are many fine violin talents 12 y/o who play better than Alma - go and see the finals of the Menuhin competitions in recent years.

2018 Chloe Chua (11)






(skip to the vivaldi 5:55)


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## DaveM

PlaySalieri said:


> There are many fine violin talents 12 y/o who play better than Alma - go and see the finals of the Menuhin competitions in recent years.
> 
> 2018 Chloe Chua (11)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (skip to the vivaldi 5:55)


So what. Many of your replies are just for the sake of arguing. There was no implication that she was the best of other 12 y/o violin talents.


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## DavidA

science said:


> Clever wordplay but it doesn't materially affect my point.


That if she starts writing music that few people want to listen to she will be considered 'progressive'?


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## Enthusiast

^ If only that was true ... (I would be a genius).


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## science

DavidA said:


> That if she starts writing music that few people want to listen to she will be considered 'progressive'?


Let's just let her grow up and do what she wants without hanging our ideological battles on her, eh? If she wants to sound like Vivaldi and she can do it, good for her, and if she wants to try to make music unlike anything we've heard before and she can do it, good for her.


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## Guest

Alma wouldn't be the first child prodigy to go on and compose music that doesn't belong in the first rank. Being a prodigious talent is only PART of the musical equation; the imagination to think outside the square, combined with profound knowledge of music are only two of the elements needed for a great musical 'voice' to succeed. You have to be astonished at the talent exhibited by the girl so far, but that isn't necessarily an end in itself.


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## s4rC45m101

PlaySalieri said:


> There are many fine violin talents 12 y/o who play better than Alma


Maybe BUT..

"Precision and perfection does not make a virtuoso.....the ability to make the music speak to and with the audience does." - Leonidas Kavanikos


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## DavidA

s4rC45m101 said:


> Maybe BUT..
> 
> "Precision and perfection does not make a virtuoso.....the ability to make the music speak to and with the audience does." - Leonidas Kavanikos


It is actually both


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