# Round Three: Abscheulicher. Grob-Prandl and Nilsson



## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Although they were very different singers, they both shared similar outstanding traits in this aria which is so very difficult to sing. Both were noted for their enormous high notes, although Grob-Prandl's was definitely a bigger voice than Nilsson's. Both were also among the very best at negotiating the essential low lying passages in this aria. Finally, both were first rate at singing the all important lyrical passages: Grob-Prandl had a great reputation as a dynamite Mozart soprano in Vienna, Mozart's home country, and Nilsson had piano singing skills that were almost in Caballe's league. In my opinion these ladies really brought Beethoven to life. I can't decide who I like better in all honesty.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Well, I suppose it depends on whether you think of Leonore as a role for a _hochdramatische_ or not, and I don't really. Both of these have things I like and things I don't. I prefer the sound of Grob-Prandl's voice, but she's a bit clumsy when it comes to anything that requires easy movement up and down the scale, which this piece does. Nilsson is surprisingly nimble (for her anyway) but, as most of you will know, I've never much liked her voice. 

I think, ultimately, my choice will be for Nilsson, simply because she gets round the notes better, but I still prefer Ludwig from the first round.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Tsaraslondon said:


> Well, I suppose it depends on whether you think of Leonore as a role for a _hochdramatische_ or not, and I don't really. Both of these have things I like and things I don't. I prefer the sound of Grob-Prandl's voice, but she's a bit clumsy when it comes to anything that requires easy movement up and down the scale, which this piece does. Nilsson is surprisingly nimble (for her anyway) but, as most of you will know, I've never much liked her voice.
> 
> I think, ultimately, my choice will be for Nilsson, simply because she gets round the notes better, but I still prefer Ludwig from the first round.


We aren't done yet


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## ALT (Mar 1, 2021)

Going for Nilsson in this one simply bc she sings it more accurately than GGP, although neither projects much characterization. Also, GGP and the orchestra were having all too obvious sloppy coordination problems. I suppose that since it’s a b*tch of a sing, getting out the notes is in itself an accomplishment of sorts. From the two rounds thus far I still go for Studer in the first, whose video was taped live unlike her competitor’s, Ludwig, whose video was *lip synced*.


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## ALT (Mar 1, 2021)

ALT said:


> Going for Nilsson in this one simply bc she sings it more accurately than GGP, although neither projects much characterization. Also, GGP and the orchestra were having all too obvious sloppy coordination problems. I suppose that since it’s a b*tch of a sing, getting out the notes is in itself an accomplishment of sorts. From the two rounds thus far I still go for Studer in the first, whose video was taped live unlike her competitor’s, Ludwig, whose video was *lip synced*.


Meant to write “from the _three_ rounds thus far ….”. Naturally, Flagstad is in a category all her own.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

ALT said:


> Going for Nilsson in this one simply bc she sings it more accurately than GGP, although neither projects much characterization. Also, GGP and the orchestra were having all too obvious sloppy coordination problems. I suppose that since it’s a b*tch of a sing, getting out the notes is in itself an accomplishment of sorts. From the two rounds thus far I still go for Studer in the first, whose video was taped live unlike her competitor’s, Ludwig, whose video was *lip synced*.


So what? Grob-Prandl may be sound only, but it's obviously a live performance, though we don't know if it were a concert or staged performance of the opera. Nilsson's is from a studio recital and Ludwig's presumably from a TV show for which she pre-recorded the vocals. Are you suggesting that Ludwig couldn't have sung it so well live? There is plenty of evidence elsewhere to suggest otherwise. We may not be comparing like with like, but that's all part of the fun.


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## ALT (Mar 1, 2021)

Tsaraslondon said:


> So what? Grob-Prandl may be sound only, but it's obviously a live performance, though we don't know if it were a concert or staged performance of the opera. Nilsson's is from a studio recital and Ludwig's presumably from a TV show for which she pre-recorded the vocals. Are you suggesting that Ludwig couldn't have sung it so well live? There is plenty of evidence elsewhere to suggest otherwise. We may not be comparing like with like, but that's all part of the fun.


That wasn’t my suggestion. Rather, as you wrote, that we are not comparing like with like. I believe there used to be a different video on Youtube of Ludwig singing the piece not so well but I can’t find it any longer.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

ALT said:


> I believe there used to be a different video on Youtube of Ludwig singing the piece not so well but I can’t find it any longer.


Well, I'm pretty sure I saw a video on youtube of Studer singing the piece _lip-synced_ and _auto-tuned_ but _I can't find it any longer_.


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

I really shouldn't vote for these things because they have little meaning for me. So I chose the one that gave more passion to her singing, Grob-Prandl.(but what do I know?)


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

I loved Rysanek's and Varnay's movie of Elektra but it is all lip synched. I guess it is low brow of me to have enjoyed it so.


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## ALT (Mar 1, 2021)

Seattleoperafan said:


> I loved Rysanek's and Varnay's movie of Elektra but it is all lip synched. I guess it is low brow of me to have enjoyed it so.


Happy you do. On a different note, this is Round _Three_ of Abscheulicher.


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## MAS (Apr 15, 2015)

I was most surprised by Nilsson’s deft handling of the awkward _coloratura _passages and unlike Tsaras, I prefer her voice here, smooth as silk whereas Grob-Prandl sounds rather rough.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Seattleoperafan said:


> I loved Rysanek's and Varnay's movie of Elektra but it is all lip synched. I guess it is low brow of me to have enjoyed it so.


I don't mind lip-synced movies if they are done well. Stratas is fabulous in *Salome *and *Pagliacci. *I also really like Joseph Losey's *Don Giovanni *and Zeffirelli's *La Traviata*.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Between these two large, bright-toned, somewhat inflexible voices my preference is slightly for Nilsson's, but they are recorded very differently. John Culshaw at Decca needed a few years to figure out what to do with Nilsson, and Decca's opera recordings from the early sixties give us rather recessed voices that seem to come from somewhere behind the orchestra, apparently in an effort to replicate an opera house perspective, but failing to take into account the way we actually hear and guage the relationships of sounds in the perspective of a live space. The Grob-Prandl recording is a bit crude and harsh, but the singer is at least fully present to us.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

I had never heard of Grob-Prandl until recently. It seems she has a smallish but enthusiastic following. I read that when asked why she hadn't sung Wagner at the Met, she replied, modestly, "Why would they want me when they have Nilsson?"


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## Georgieva (7 mo ago)

Nilsson.


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## MAS (Apr 15, 2015)

Woodduck said:


> John Culshaw at Decca needed a few years to figure out what to do with Nilsson, and Decca's opera recordings from the early sixties give us rather recessed voices…


Nilsson did not like what Culshaw came up with, as he did not present her in an acoustic she preferred, that is, front-and-center. Apparently, he surrounded her with the orchestra and it didn’t sound as if she dominated, as she liked. She was much happier at EMI who, recorded the singers more favorably.


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## ALT (Mar 1, 2021)

Lip-synced films, no matter how “well done”, are fakery.


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

^^The object of these threads is to compare the singing and not the quality of the video so why are you harping on the video being lip-synched? If it bothers you then listen to them with your eyes closed.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

ALT said:


> Lip-synced films, no matter how “well done”, are fakery.


Almost all Hollywood musicals are lip-synced. I remember that it was considered quite unusual for the actors to sing live when they made *Les Miserables*.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

MAS said:


> Nilsson did not like what Culshaw came up with, as he did not present her in an acoustic she preferred, that is, front-and-center. Apparently, he surrounded her with the orchestra and it didn’t sound as if she dominated, as she liked. She was much happier at EMI who, recorded the singers more favorably.


Having heard Nilsson live twice, I have to agree with her opinion that the early Culshaw recordings don't convey the impact of her voice. The worst example I can think of offhand is the Decca _Tristan,_ in which Solti's screaming orchestra swamps Nilsson, Uhl, Resnik and everyone and everything, including the ship and the castle. Culshaw did learn from his miscalculations - I'd imagine lots of folks complained - and by the mid-1960s, when he recorded _Gotterdammerung, Walkure_ and _Elektra,_ the singers have a more satisfying presence.


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## 89Koechel (Nov 25, 2017)

Tsaraslondon said:


> Well, I suppose it depends on whether you think of Leonore as a role for a _hochdramatische_ or not, and I don't really. Both of these have things I like and things I don't. I prefer the sound of Grob-Prandl's voice, but she's a bit clumsy when it comes to anything that requires easy movement up and down the scale, which this piece does. Nilsson is surprisingly nimble (for her anyway) but, as most of you will know, I've never much liked her voice.
> 
> I think, ultimately, my choice will be for Nilsson, simply because she gets round the notes better, but I still prefer Ludwig from the first round.


YEP, surely agree with you, about Christa Ludwig! ... I like Grob-Prandl's way here, also, and disagree, a bit, about how she negotiates those tricky passages, up and down. Moreover, Nilsson MISSES a few notes (a bit flat) in the middle section ... unless my senility affects my listening.


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## 89Koechel (Nov 25, 2017)

Woodduck said:


> Having heard Nilsson live twice, I have to agree with her opinion that the early Culshaw recordings don't convey the impact of her voice. The worst example I can think of offhand is the Decca _Tristan,_ in which Solti's screaming orchestra swamps Nilsson, Uhl, Resnik and everyone and everything, including the ship and the castle. Culshaw did learn from his miscalculations - I'd imagine lots of folks complained - and by the mid-1960s, when he recorded _Gotterdammerung, Walkure_ and _Elektra,_ the singers have a more satisfying presence.


Nice particulars, about Nilsson! ... and the difficulties of the Solti Ring! ... Well, a favorite of one listener, if we rate the best of Nilsson, is still that Puccini/Turandot, with the penultimate "Calaf" of all ... Bjorling.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

89Koechel said:


> Nice particulars, about Nilsson! ... and the difficulties of the Solti Ring! ... Well, a favorite of one listener, if we rate the best of Nilsson, is still that Puccini/Turandot, with the penultimate "Calaf" of all ... Bjorling.


I love that _Turandot_ too, even if it was recorded before the engineers knew how to capture Nilsson's voice fully. I understand that Bjorling was a little nervous about recording with her, especially since he didn't sing Calaf in the opera house, but the results were splendid. His voice had such ringing freedom, such a heroic gleam when he let it out, that we get no sense of it being too small for the role. Nobody sings it more beautifully, even if Corelli is the more natural match for Birgit as heard on their stunning live recordings. _Turandot_ has been fortunate on recordings.


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## 89Koechel (Nov 25, 2017)

Woodduck said:


> I love that _Turandot_ too, even if it was recorded before the engineers knew how to capture Nilsson's voice fully. I understand that Bjorling was a little nervous about recording with her, especially since he didn't sing Calaf in the opera house, but the results were splendid. His voice had such ringing freedom, such a heroic gleam when he let it out, that we get no sense of it being too small for the role. Nobody sings it more beautifully, even if Corelli is the more natural match for Birgit as heard on their stunning live recordings. _Turandot_ has been fortunate on recordings.


Very interesting, Woodduck, esp. how the excellent RCA engineers of the time did NOT (as you assert) know how encompass Ms. Nilsson's voice, entirely! As for Bjorling, one of the minuscule (no offense to you, it's been said, before) criticisms of the Swede's expressive/sonorous voice, was that it was "too small" ... maybe for "Aida", also. Well, when a great singer can FILL OUT a tenor role, without hectoring, blaring, flatting certain notes, or the failings of other tenors ... and still sound within a firm, impeccable foundation ... that's OK with me, my friend. Thanks, and GOOD points, IMO!


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

89Koechel said:


> Very interesting, Woodduck, esp. how the excellent RCA engineers of the time did NOT (as you assert) know how encompass Ms. Nilsson's voice, entirely! As for Bjorling, one of the minuscule (no offense to you, it's been said, before) criticisms of the Swede's expressive/sonorous voice, was that it was "too small" ... maybe for "Aida", also. Well, when a great singer can FILL OUT a tenor role, without hectoring, blaring, flatting certain notes, or the failings of other tenors ... and still sound within a firm, impeccable foundation ... that's OK with me, my friend. Thanks, and GOOD points, IMO!


I don't think any of us heard him live, but from recordings you can tell that he had lots of squillo. His face looked like a dinner plate so he had a big area to resonate from. It was so bright and resonant. Voices with squillo could come across much bigger in a house. Yes Nilsson had a powerful long lasting voice, but by using a focused sound with a lot of squillo, she could ride over a huge orchestra while using only a very small amount of her vocal capital. One reason her voice was so hard to capture in studios was that she had basically a dark sound, but she sent it out of the gate very focused and bright and the darkness didn't start coming back into the sound until it started expanding in the house. That was why the high C from Siegfried got such a rousing response when I posted it on Youtube ( but was ignored here LOL) ...it was because the sound was so much fuller than you normally heard from her on her C6's because it was recorded from the back of Bayreuth's house. She very rarely had to put the pedal to the metal as it were. I think the two Swedes would have been thrilling to hear live in a theater.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Seattleoperafan said:


> I don't think any of us heard him live, but from recordings you can tell that he had lots of squillo. His face looked like a dinner plate so he had a big area to resonate from. It was so bright and resonant. Voices with squillo could come across much bigger in a house. Yes Nilsson had a powerful long lasting voice, but by using a focused sound with a lot of squillo, she could ride over a huge orchestra while using only a very small amount of her vocal capital. One reason her voice was so hard to capture in studios was that she had basically a dark sound, but she sent it out of the gate very focused and bright and the darkness didn't start coming back into the sound until it started expanding in the house. That was why the high C from Siegfried got such a rousing response when I posted it on Youtube ( but was ignored here LOL) ...it was because the sound was so much fuller than you normally heard from her on her C6's because it was recorded from the back of Bayreuth's house. She very rarely had to put the pedal to the metal as it were. I think the two Swedes would have been thrilling to hear live in a theater.


Interestingly, it was said of Flagstad too that her voice on records didn't sound the way it did in the house. I'm sure this is true of many singers. If I were to offer a lapidary metaphor for Nilsson's sound, I'd say that on recordings it sounds like a white diamond, while in the house (the Met, at least) it sounded like a sapphire.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Woodduck said:


> Interestingly, it was said of Flagstad too that her voice on records didn't sound the way it did in the house. I'm sure this is true of many singers. If I were to offer a lapidary metaphor for Nilsson's sound, I'd say that on recordings it sounds like a white diamond, while in the house (the Met, at least) it sounded like a sapphire.


Thanks for reading. That sounds pretty spot on from what I have heard. I am jealous you heard her!!!!!!


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