# Songs



## juliante (Jun 7, 2013)

If I had only one desert island music genre it would certainly be classical music, for me it offers the most depth and emotional heft.

But I find lieder to be an exception to this. For me the broad spectrum of songs across rock, pop, soul etc offer far greater rewards and inspiration. 

Don't get me wrong, there are several pieces I love - by Mahler, Schubert and Strauss. But for me classical lieder's palette of expression feels much more narrow. 

I know I don't have to choose. Just interested in others' opinions.


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## janxharris (May 24, 2010)

juliante said:


> If I had only one desert island music genre it would certainly be classical music, for me it offers the most depth and emotional heft.
> 
> But I find lieder to be an exception to this. For me the broad spectrum of songs across rock, pop, soul etc offer far greater rewards and inspiration.
> 
> ...


What song form the non-classical world would you reference as an example?


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## Room2201974 (Jan 23, 2018)

janxharris said:


> What song form the non-classical world would you reference as an example?


Perhaps it is unfair to compare the narrow range of expressiveness that one gets with just a piano and voice in lieder and that of the multi-tracked, multi-instrumental computer-enhanced-perfected modern recording studio. But, I'd go with:





















Could be that Art is just the name of the dog that sits on some author's porch!


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

I'm not sure about this but composers like Schubert composed very many more really great songs than any pop/rock songwriter. And when you add in composers like Purcell and Dowland as well as more 20th century - Britten! - and contemporary composers (song has been an important part of the avant garde) it doesn't seem that classical songs let us down at all.


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## CnC Bartok (Jun 5, 2017)

I couldn't disagree more with the OP here, but I know where he's coming from. I would be happy to admit the "Art Song" can be an acquired taste. Not everyone gets on with the classical voice, the limited accompaniment of just a piano, the dated language and content, the foreign language even, and the fact that the performer is so much less important than in rock and pop etc.

And yet there's a couple of centuries of the finest music in there. Can't be dismissed!


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## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

Lieder isn't exactly my favorite genre, either. But the vast repertoire that has been written surely demonstrates a wide range of feeling - from the most terrifying horror, to the exalted heights. Love, passion, loss...it's all there. But I agree that there are impediments: the language being the most obvious. I don't discount pop music at all. Those writers in Tin Pan Alley were great and left a huge, worthy legacy. There are some really great songs in the pop arena. Do they have staying power though? Some, but mostly no - and that's the same in the classical genres. Pop songs are by design easy to understand: melodically, rhythmically, harmonically, and verbally. Some of them become famous and remain so because they hit all the right buttons in the brain. Classical lieder require more thought from the listener making it harder for those buttons to get a hit. How many of us have really explored the vast vocal literature? I know I haven't; I'm still discovering so much orchestral music. One of the most beautiful things I know of in all the world is the Bailero by Joseph Canteloube. Can't imagine being without it. With my luck though, if I were stranded on a desert island the sole disk would be Achy Breaky Heart.


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## Strange Magic (Sep 14, 2015)

Here's a favorite of mine that's melodically, rhythmically, harmonically, and verbally simple and easy to understand. But it packs, for me, a lot of emotional energy into a few brief verses: _Antelope_ by Ian & Sylvia and The Great Speckled Bird....

https://muzofon-online.mobi/search/Ian &amp; Sylvia &amp; The Great Speckled Bird - Antelope

I also love Canteloube's Bailero. And Villa-Lobos BB #5.


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## janxharris (May 24, 2010)

Not sure why there's a suggestion that a song must be only voice and piano for it to be a classical one.


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## CnC Bartok (Jun 5, 2017)

janxharris said:


> Not sure why there's a suggestion that a song must be only voice and piano for it to be a classical one.


I don't think anyone is actually saying that, but you have to admit the vast majority are for voice and piano.


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

^ A feature mostly of the Romantic when the big deal for composers was to sell sheet music for playing/singing at home.


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## larold (Jul 20, 2017)

_But I find lieder to be an exception to this. For me the broad spectrum of songs across rock, pop, soul etc offer far greater rewards and inspiration. _

I don't doubt you like the rhythm and simple lyrics of popular music. I listen to both and don't find much inspiration in pop songs, especially those written in the past 40 years, and find little relationship between them and lied.

There are some Beatles' songs, such as _Eleanor Rigby_, that may be compared to lied but for the most part popular songs are strophes (AKA repetitive) with lyrics that may ryhyme but don't match the poetry of lieder. Even the greatest popular songs, such as _Smoke Gets In My Eyes_ (to a tune by Chopin), _Yesterday_, _That's Life_ and _Take The A Train_ are superfluous compared to a Schiller or Hunter poem.

There are a number of lieder I would recommend you investigate if you think popular music matches or exceeds lied. They would include:

-- Schubert's _Erlking_ which requires the singer to portray several different voices representing different entities.
-- Schubert's _An schwager Kronos_, a depiction of a chariot ride to hell where the pianist is required to mimic the sounds of horse's hooves.
-- Schubert's _Der Lindenbaum_ for an exemplar where the text only suggests its deeper meaning.
-- Schubert's _Ganymed_, a 4-minute plus song that never repeats anything.
-- Richard Strauss's _September_ or _Im Abendrot_ from the 4 Last Songs for depth of feeling and expression between text and notes.
-- Mahler's _Nun seh'ich vol, warum so dunkle Flammen_ from Kindertotenlieder for same.
-- Beethoven's _An die Ferne Geliebte_, a 4-song cycle in itself that lasts 14-15 minutes.
-- Berlioz's _Absence_ from the song cycle Les nuits d'ete' for expression of longing.
-- Haydn's _Spirit Song_ about a departed friend come back to visit from the other world.

Then try to find some popular songs that match the complexity, depth and intensity of both the text and emotional content.


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## janxharris (May 24, 2010)

larold said:


> _Smoke Gets In My Eyes_ (to a tune by Chopin)


Which Chopin tune? The tune was composed by Jerome Kern.


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## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

Speaking purely for myself I think lieder/art songs for voice and piano can be as rewarding as any other category as long as there is maximum variety in terms of lyrical and musical content. What works best in my case is not to restrict myself to the 'glory era' of Schubert, Schumann, Mussorgsky, Wolf, Mahler et al. - even though there are more than enough songs from those five composers alone for the genre to be self-sustainable, the songs of Poulenc, Shostakovich, Britten, Rorem etc are of equal importance to me.


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## juliante (Jun 7, 2013)

larold said:


> _But I find lieder to be an exception to this. For me the broad spectrum of songs across rock, pop, soul etc offer far greater rewards and inspiration. _
> 
> I don't doubt you like the rhythm and simple lyrics of popular music. I listen to both and don't find much inspiration in pop songs, especially those written in the past 40 years, and find little relationship between them and lied.
> 
> ...


 Great thanks for this.I will listen to these and then see if I can come back on it.


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## chu42 (Aug 14, 2018)

Ives 114 Songs are incredibly broad in texture and tonality.

And I'm surprised that nobody has talked about Schumann's Dichterliebe..


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

juliante said:


> If I had only one desert island music genre it would certainly be classical music, for me it offers the most depth and emotional heft.
> 
> But I find lieder to be an exception to this. For me the broad spectrum of songs across rock, pop, soul etc offer far greater rewards and inspiration.
> 
> ...


How many genres are you comparing classical with? Virtually all cultures have songs. If you're including them all, then yes, classical song's range may be narrower. But it's still very broad, given the time span of what we call classical music.

Perhaps it's the classical singing tradition - the highly trained voice we've written for since at least the Baroque - which makes the range seem narrower.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Woodduck said:


> Perhaps it's the classical singing tradition - the highly trained voice we've written for since at least the Baroque - which makes the range seem narrower.


It's an interesting suggestion and maybe c18 and c19 classical song suffers from its performance tradition. I listen to vocal music more than any other type, but mostly to either medieval, renaissance or post war music. Maybe the OP would enjoy investigating Wolkenstein, Binchois, Webern and Cage, if he hasn't already done so.

For me, listening to early and recent vocal music is a tremendous source of wonder - I had no idea how rich and varied the voice can be. I'm much less interested now in _Bildungsbuergertum_ singing.


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## Fabulin (Jun 10, 2019)

Great melody + a soloist or a duet + a varied instrumental ensemble or a small orchestra + a small choir = a great song


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## Duncan (Feb 8, 2019)

These are brilliant -









Link to complete albums (168 songs) -

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_ke0Y0AArNpTAdv9y6zDhsbmvd_D0tlWm0

*Works*

Beethoven: Irish Songs (12), WoO 154
Beethoven: Irish Songs (20), WoO 153
Beethoven: Irish Songs (25), WoO 152
Beethoven: Scottish Songs (12), WoO 156
Beethoven: Scottish Songs (25), Op. 108
Beethoven: Songs (12) of Various Nationalities, WoO 157
Beethoven: Songs (23) of Various Nationalities WoO 158a
Beethoven: Welsh Songs (26), WoO 155


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## juliante (Jun 7, 2013)

larold said:


> _But I find lieder to be an exception to this. For me the broad spectrum of songs across rock, pop, soul etc offer far greater rewards and inspiration. _
> 
> I don't doubt you like the rhythm and simple lyrics of popular music. I listen to both and don't find much inspiration in pop songs, especially those written in the past 40 years, and find little relationship between them and lied.
> 
> ...


Ok larold. Whilst being mindful of the futility of this exercise, I had a go anyway just for fun . I have made some attempt to offer songs in response to your descriptions. I revisited all the songs you listed. (I knew all of them except the Haydn). A fine set of works they are too and several that I treasure deeply. But against my criteria of inspiration and breadth of palette of expression the songs I took 5 minutes to select as below (and could do again many times over) win the day, for me :tiphat:

-- Schubert's _Erlking_ : Kristen Hersch - Your Ghost
-- Schubert's _An schwager Kronos_, : Low - Dancing and Blood
-- Schubert's _Der Lindenbaum_ : Pentangle - Cruel Sister 
-- Schubert's _Ganymed_, : Dave - Screwface Capital .
-- Richard Strauss 4 Last Songs : Sun Kil Moon _ Truck Driver
-- Mahler : The Unthanks - Sea Song
-- Beethoven's _An die Ferne Geliebte[/: Joanna Newsome - Go Long 
-- Berlioz's Absence from the song cycle Les nuits d'ete': Nick Cave - Distant Sky 
-- Haydn : Jason Isbell - Live Oak

I imagine you will find they lack complexity and depth compared to your selection...

I would say though, if I had to select a top 30 list of my all time favourite 'songs' I am sure 3 or 4 lieder would feature._


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## Xisten267 (Sep 2, 2018)

I agree with the OP. For me, songs are the quintessential form of non-classical music, and specifically in this genre in my opinion classical is "surpassed" by popular music. I even think that the term "art music" to describe lieder only is unfortunate, because for me there's art in many non-classical songs aswell.

Examples of art songs outside of classical music in my opinion:


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## CypressWillow (Apr 2, 2013)

Song? Art song? With just voice and piano?

Rachmaninoff
Gedda
Zdes Khorosho (How Fair This Spot)
One minute and 48 seconds of pure, exquisite beauty

I got yer art song right here!

Yer welcome.


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## larold (Jul 20, 2017)

_Smoke Gets In My Eyes (to a tune by Chopin) Which Chopin tune? The tune was composed by Jerome Kern. _

One of the etudes.


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## Room2201974 (Jan 23, 2018)

larold said:


> _Smoke Gets In My Eyes (to a tune by Chopin) Which Chopin tune? The tune was composed by Jerome Kern. _
> 
> One of the etudes.


Which of the 27 would that be?


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

Allerius said:


> I agree with the OP. For me, songs are the quintessential form of non-classical music, and specifically in this genre in my opinion classical is "surpassed" by popular music. I even think that the term "art music" to describe lieder only is unfortunate, because for me there's art in many non-classical songs aswell.
> 
> Examples of art songs outside of classical music in my opinion:


While I agree that Yes, Pink Floyd, and Genesis produced art music, the examples you cite are not really in the same genre as classical lieder. They are more comparable to classical cantatas or symphonic poems with voices than they are to art songs.


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## Xisten267 (Sep 2, 2018)

EdwardBast said:


> While I agree that Yes, Pink Floyd, and Genesis produced art music, the examples you cite are not really in the same genre as classical lieder. They are more comparable to classical cantatas or symphonic poems with voices than they are to art songs.


The examples I provided are very different from lieder, yet essentially both art forms pertain to the same genre in my perspective: songs. I can agree that the comparison may be inappropriate though, as it would be comparing a Mahler symphony with a Sammartini's.


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## larold (Jul 20, 2017)

_One of the etudes...Which of the 27 would that be? _

I don't recall. You can match it to this version:


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## Room2201974 (Jan 23, 2018)

larold said:


> _One of the etudes...Which of the 27 would that be? _
> 
> I don't recall. You can match it to this version:


*larold*,

Help me out here. I'm not hearing any of this:






In ANY of this:






So, school me here. What did I miss? Something in retrograde inversion perhaps?


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

If you ask me, the classical lieder is surpassed only by these:


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## chill782002 (Jan 12, 2017)

I don't listen to a lot of lieder, but there are a small number that I love.

Mussorgsky's "Songs and Dances of Death" is one example, particularly the 1994 recording by Marjana Lipovsek and Graham Johnson. If pressed, I'd have to confess that the "Serenade" is a favourite. Seductive yet chilling.


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## DeepR (Apr 13, 2012)

I like songs in both classical and non-classical music, although I'm very picky when it comes to singing.

Sometimes all you need is a piano.


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## Xisten267 (Sep 2, 2018)

I have a bias against the combination of voice and solo piano, but I can enjoy lieder nevertheless. I do like some songs by Beethoven, Wagner, Schubert, Schumann, Berlioz and others. An example of an orchestrated song that I really enjoy is by Léo Delibes, a somewhat obscure french composer nowadays:


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