# The greatness Franck's Symphony and the tragedy of its fade from the spotlight



## DavidMahler (Dec 28, 2009)

I've read a lot of books written from prewar times which refer to Franck's Symphony as amongst the greatest of the 19th Century. One critic, though I don't recall whom, considered it an equal to any of Dvorak's. 

Today I hardly ever hear it discussed. Certainly not to the magnitude which I assume it once was. It is however my favorite symphony written by a French (or pseudo-French) composer... I know he was Belgian. 

What do you think happened to make it fade from the standard repertoire as much as it has?


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## violadude (May 2, 2011)

DavidMahler said:


> I've read a lot of books written from prewar times which refer to Franck's Symphony as amongst the greatest of the 19th Century. One critic, though I don't recall whom, considered it an equal to any of Dvorak's.
> 
> Today I hardly ever hear it discussed. Certainly not to the magnitude which I assume it once was. It is however my favorite symphony written by a French (or pseudo-French) composer... I know he was Belgian.
> 
> What do you think happened to make it fade from the standard repertoire as much as it has?


Hmm, I haven't heard the Franck symphony, but maybe it is not as popular or as often discussed among masses because he didn't write an epic symphony cycle to go along with his symphony. That's my best guess. As silly as it seems, I think many people (including myself I admit) are more likely to listen to a composers symphonies if there are a cycle of them. If there is only one, I think it is perceived as sort of an insignificant one shot attempt at writing a symphony.


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## DavidMahler (Dec 28, 2009)

violadude said:


> Hmm, I haven't heard the Franck symphony, but maybe it is not as popular or as often discussed among masses because he didn't write an epic symphony cycle to go along with his symphony. That's my best guess. As silly as it seems, I think many people (including myself I admit) are more likely to listen to a composers symphonies if there are a cycle of them. If there is only one, I think it is perceived as sort of an insignificant one shot attempt at writing a symphony.


Please listen to it!!! It's such an amazing work. I have old writeups which my friend wrote up when he was a kid.

Here is his exact list as broadcasted by a prestigious radio station in 1963 playing the 20 greatest pieces of classical music as perceived in 1963 by this radio station and its listeners:

1. Beethoven - Symphony 5
2. Bach - Brandenburg Concertos
3. Beethoven - Symphony 9
4. Brahms - Symphony 1
5. Mozart - Symphony 41
6. Beethoven - Piano Concerto 5
7. Schubert - Symphony 8
8. Mendelssohn - Violin Concerto
9. Dvorak - Symphony 9
10. Tchaikovsky - Piano Concerto 1
11. Mozart - Symphony 40
12. Beethoven - Symphony 7
13. Brahms - Symphony 4
14. Chopin - Ballades
15. Verdi - Requiem
*16. Franck - Symphony in D Minor*
17. Puccini La Boheme
18. Gershwin - An American In Paris
19. Handel - Messiah
20. Beethoven - Symphony 3


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## violadude (May 2, 2011)

DavidMahler said:


> Please listen to it!!! It's such an amazing work. I have old writeups which my friend wrote up when he was a kid.
> 
> Here is his exact list as broadcasted by a prestigious radio station in 1963 playing the 20 greatest pieces of classical music as perceived in 1963 by this radio station and its listeners:
> 
> ...


Alrighty then, I will listen to it sometime!


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## violadude (May 2, 2011)

DavidMahler said:


> Please listen to it!!! It's such an amazing work. I have old writeups which my friend wrote up when he was a kid.
> 
> Here is his exact list as broadcasted by a prestigious radio station in 1963 playing the 20 greatest pieces of classical music as perceived in 1963 by this radio station and its listeners:
> 
> ...


Alrighty then, I will listen to it sometime!


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

It is an interesting work, esp. how he fuses the slow movement and the scherzo/minuet/dance movement & presents them as one in the middle movement (the symphony has three, not four movements). This work is comparable in quality to Bruckner's imo, as well as in terms of them both being great organists, which did have at least some impact on how they wrote for the orchestra.

He was also a great teacher, and I think partly for that reason did not seek to push his music in the limelight. He was not a showman or an entertainer, that's for sure, he was a professional musician, teacher and scholar first and foremost.

The downside of Franck's music in general, and maybe why it's not as popular now as before, is that he tends to be quite serious and straight-laced in some ways. Maybe even dour. Eg. Brahms at least has those lovely "Hungarianised" endings to his concertos and many of his chamber works. Brahms allows a bit of fun and frivolity in, not to mention the Frenchmen like Saint-Saens, but Franck does not give an inch of that in his music (or none that I'm aware of) so the audience has to sit through this work which is kind of very serious and a bit glum, morose, etc.

Don't get me wrong, I like Franck's music, but often I wish he could lighten up just maybe a little bit...


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## clavichorder (May 2, 2011)

Haven't heard it, I'll have to sample it right now and maybe try it later. Another great, neglected French symphony is Chausson's symphony in B flat, which is very Wagnerian and French at the same time, something I have immediate respect for.


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## DavidMahler (Dec 28, 2009)

clavichorder said:


> Haven't heard it, I'll have to sample it right now and maybe try it later. Another great, neglected French symphony is Chausson's symphony in B flat, which is very Wagnerian and French at the same time, something I have immediate respect for.


It is my understanding that Chausson's main influence for his symphony was in fact Franck's! Unlike Sid James, I don't hear it nearly as weighty as Bruckner, but there is some obvious Wagnerian spirit.


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## clavichorder (May 2, 2011)

DavidMahler said:


> It is my understanding that Chausson's main influence for his symphony was in fact Franck's! Unlike Sid James, I don't hear it nearly as weighty as Bruckner, but there is some obvious Wagnerian spirit.


I think I agree, its not stodgy like Brahms might come across sometimes, its more lush and free.


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## DavidMahler (Dec 28, 2009)

clavichorder said:


> I think I agree, its not stodgy like Brahms might come across sometimes, its more lush and free.


The Chausson on the Franck? I wasn't clear... I was talking about Franck in reference to Bruckner

Franck's greatest pupil was Chausson. It's awesome that you brought up that symphony as they are so right to be compared.


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## clavichorder (May 2, 2011)

^^^Franck, I'm listening to it right now. I would agree that its very dark, but its not quite as austere as Brahms or heavy as Bruckner. It has a little bit of that subtle Wagner/subtle late Liszt tone poem feel to my ears at first.

Edit, yes, listening to the first movement a second time with my concentration geared up, its definitely a powerful piece of work.


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## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

The symphony was (to put it mildly) not a success when first performed; St. Saens expressed the displeasure of the establishment.

I first heard the symphony when a teenager, and an unconvinced agnostic. The music struck me as expressing very strong religious emotion, sort of Holy Rolling Catholicism [no insult intended]. I played the LP pretty often during my highschool years, particularly when, hmm, when my will needed strengthening.

The symphony may have fallen off the bandwagon because it _can_ be perceived as a very personal expression from Franck's center, and thus embarrassing for a non-believer to witness.

Well, maybe not.

BTW _Sid_, I don't hear 'dour'. I suspect that where you hear it, I hear faith-under-duress; there are several such passages in the work.


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## Weston (Jul 11, 2008)

Maybe there are simply no catchy themes to latch on to. I know I've had this in my catalog for some time off and on, and heard it on the radio before that, but I can't say I could hum any theme from the work. Thus it got skipped over when Hollywood started inserting classical works into film scores, etc. This is not necessarily a bad thing, nothing to detract from my enjoyment of the piece if I were to sit down and focus on it.


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## DavidMahler (Dec 28, 2009)

Weston said:


> Maybe there are simply no catchy themes to latch on to. I know I've had this in my catalog for some time off and on, and heard it on the radio before that, but I can't say I could hum any theme from the work. Thus it got skipped over when Hollywood started inserting classical works into film scores, etc. This is not necessarily a bad thing, nothing to detract from my enjoyment of the piece if I were to sit down and focus on it.


Really? For me, that's its strength. It's one of the most catchy works in the whole symphonic medium


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## mmsbls (Mar 6, 2011)

I have never found Frank's symphony as enjoyable as his other major works. I have returned several times because I love his Symphonic Variations and violin sonata and quite like his piano quintet and piano concerto No. 2. I agree with Weston that the themes from the symphony are not as memorable. Franck is somewhat unusual in that he wrote the vast majority of his major works very late in life (in his 60's). That didn't seem to affect the success of his Symphonic Variations and violin sonata.


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## Nix (Feb 20, 2010)

Probably because it isn't actually _that_ good. I mean I like it, but there are a lot more rewarding symphonies in a similar vein out there. I agree with the sentiment that Franck probably took himself too seriously, which is why the music can put off some people. I also think the symphony is begging to have a program to it... it just sounds like a tone poem, which would excuse his seriousness. But as far as I know there's nothing to it, so instead we think about Franck, and how dark and heroic his life must be... which again makes him seem a bit self-involved, taking life too seriously, and since the composer's output isn't big, you can't put some context into it.


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## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

Nix said:


> Probably because it isn't actually _that_ good. I mean I like it, but there are a lot more rewarding symphonies in a similar vein out there. I agree with the sentiment that Franck probably took himself too seriously, which is why the music can put off some people. I also think the symphony is begging to have a program to it... it just sounds like a tone poem, which would excuse his seriousness. But as far as I know there's nothing to it, so instead we think about Franck, and how dark and heroic his life must be... which again makes him seem a bit self-involved, taking life too seriously, and since the composer's output isn't big, you can't put some context into it.


In the spirit of TC togetherness, I award this post a

Bronx Cheer

[email protected]*~&%!

Somehow, that mess fails to simulate the pungency of the aural version.

:devil:


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## DavidMahler (Dec 28, 2009)

Nix said:


> Probably because it isn't actually _that_ good. I mean I like it, but there are a lot more rewarding symphonies in a similar vein out there. I agree with the sentiment that Franck probably took himself too seriously, which is why the music can put off some people. I also think the symphony is begging to have a program to it... it just sounds like a tone poem, which would excuse his seriousness. But as far as I know there's nothing to it, *so instead we think about Franck, and how dark and heroic his life must be... which again makes him seem a bit self-involved, taking life too seriously, and since the composer's output isn't big, you can't put some context into it.*


i dont do any of that, I just listen to it.


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## clavichorder (May 2, 2011)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Symphony_in_D_minor_(Franck)

The wikipedia article for those folks who might like to know but aren't curious or are too lazy to look it up themselves, the background behind Franck's symphony. I was wondering why it was taking such a beating here. Saint Saens didn't like it, he said it sounded like an academic exercise of sorts, but what did he know when it came to music criticism? The biggest problem in contemporary times cited on wiki is that it infused too much of a Germanic Lisztian/Wagnerian sort of orchestration and theme style into its otherwise French structure, thus fusing too nationalities thought to not be mixable! Good riddance!

The piece reminded me of a darker version of Chausson's, which is appropriate since the Franck is in a minor key and the Chausson is in a major. I'll have to check it out more, this controversy is intriguing, so maybe it'll expose me to some music that I like, maybe it won't, but on the surface, I was prejudiced for the piece due to its exciting Lisztian orchestration.


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## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

Ref _clavichorder_'s mention of the Wikipedia article - this brings up points I choose to emphasize:

I have heard this music many times, in several interpretations, and I have formed opinions about its several facets. I don't give a hoot about its "Germanic Lisztian/Wagnerian sort of orchestration and theme style". I don't think it's "a darker version of Chausson's" (mainly because I don't think it is dark; inner conflict isn't dark, it glows like the heart of a coal fire).

The symphony is 'cut from the same cloth' as his chamber music (and organ music). The strong feelings must be evident to every hearer to who has ever experienced strong feelings. The French people of his time were surely capable of those feelings, even though their conservatories were concerned with 'French' style, not emotion.

Chamber music is pretty easily mounted; symphonies are another thing. Too many important people find the symphony embarrassing nowadays. TC members do too.


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## Nix (Feb 20, 2010)

DavidMahler said:


> i dont do any of that, I just listen to it.


I think it's helpful to figure why or why not you like something. Odd that you get more flak for supporting your opinion than not.


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## DavidMahler (Dec 28, 2009)

Nix said:


> I think it's helpful to figure why or why not you like something. Odd that you get more flak for supporting your opinion than not.


I wasn't intending for it to be flak, I was just stating that I never actually listen to it like that.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

Re the Wagnerian infuence on Franck - as well as on Chausson & Lalo - these guys were going out on a bit of a limb in terms of this influence being a bit of a slap in the face for French nationalists, both musical and political. Esp. in terms of France being defeated badly in the Franco-Prussian war (around 1870-71). Any connection in your music with that of Germany automatically put you in the bad books of French nationalists and xenophobes. I've read that this kind of sealed the fate of Chausson, & I wouldn't be surprised if it affected Saint-Saens & other people's negative views on the Franck symphony under discussion?...


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## Huilunsoittaja (Apr 6, 2010)

I really do like the Franck Symphony, there's just a melody in the last movement that really irritates me, but not because of it per se, but that I involuntarily associate it with a much sillier melody from elsewhere. I won't name it here because of its potential to ruin the symphony for other people.

Franck is definitely a more chromatic composer and more liberal when it comes to form, which makes him quite different compared to Saint-Saens. But that was his style, no wrong in being so.


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## Olias (Nov 18, 2010)

Just getting in on this thread (long day). I recently did an intense score study on the Franck Symphony for our local symphony orchestra and it instantly became one of my favorites. I love the cyclic nature of movements, the gorgeous use of wind instruments (especially the english horn), the way his melodies "uncoil" like a spring. Its a marvelous work and its very easy to see how well crafted it is when one studies the score.


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## Chi_townPhilly (Apr 21, 2007)

Olias said:


> I love the cyclic nature of movements, the gorgeous use of wind instruments (especially the english horn), the way his melodies "uncoil" like a spring.


As a metaphor, I think "unfold" works better for me than "uncoil." Bill Parker uses the "blossom-like-a-flower" turn of phrase (and I suppose he wasn't the first to do so), and that seves just fine, too.

Maybe it's just a symptom of our increasingly hard-boiled times that works that "blossom-like-a-flower" and evince thoughts of "faith-under-duress" get put on some people's shelves under the label "quaint." I think those who engage in such pigeon-holing miss out here... but I don't think my words are going to impel anyone so inclined to reconsider.


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## waldvogel (Jul 10, 2011)

The list from 1963 is quite amazing in itself - no Mahler, no Debussy, no Wagner, but including Franck's symphony, _An American in Paris_, and Chopin's Ballades...

Franck's symphony is very good, verging on great, in my opinion. The opening is reminiscent of the "Muss es sein" section from Beethoven's String Quartet op. 135 - Franck must have been aware of this quartet by the late 1880's. The response is a dreamy horn call that is also a leitmotiv that reappears in the second and third movements. Anther leitmotif morphs from a germ in the first movement to the English Horn theme in the second movement and then to the almost jazzy brass theme in the finale. The first movement has a great development section, with a contrapuntal section finally resolving the conflict. The orchestration is, by and large, clear and colourful.

So why isn't it really great, in my opinion? First of all, for a composer writing in the 1880's, you would think that he would use some percussion instruments beyond the modest use of tympani. The lack of anything like a scherzo makes it feel longer than its actual length - it does plod along at times.

For me, personally, the worst thing about the symphony comes at the response to the "Muss es sein?" theme in the first movement. It's well-developed, almost Bachian in its counterpoint, and at the moment of climax, answers the question in a perfectly logical rhythmic motiv that, unfortunately, sounds just like "shave-and-a-haircut".


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

DavidMahler said:


> ...the 20 greatest pieces of classical music as perceived by this radio station and its listeners;


So your 'validation' is basically a people's poll of the top pop classical most favored pieces.

Since Debussy only wrote one complete symphony, "La Mer," and it is still a staple of the canon of symphonic literature, and often enough performed, that 'one symphony' rationale had me thinking, 'odd.'

But Franck... this composer has me thinking journeyman composer, plenty of craft, nothing at all important or really interesting ever having come from his pen. I personally think he should have been arrested -- put under trial of a court martial -- for that dreadful violin sonata, and for that piece, found guilty, and executed by firing squad.

It was Haydn who said that if a piece remained in circulation for seventy years, that the composer, and the piece, had about as much luck as one could hope to expect -- the music clearly of interest and speaking to several later generations. It seems the Franck symphony got something like that extended play... plenty of its time in the sun. With that length of active life, and no matter 'how well composed' the Franck Symphony may be, its fade into relative obscurity is far less than tragic.


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## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

PetrB said:


> So your 'validation' is basically a people's poll of the top pop classical most favored pieces.
> [...]
> It was Haydn who said that if a piece remained in circulation for seventy years, that the composer, and the piece, had about as much luck as one could hope to expect -- the music clearly of interest and speaking to several later generations. It seems the Franck symphony got something like that extended play... plenty of its time in the sun. With that length of active life, and no matter 'how well composed' the Franck Symphony may be, its fade into relative obscurity is far less than tragic.


My response is to suggest that you reread _C_tP_'s comments.


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## science (Oct 14, 2010)

PetrB said:


> I personally think he should have been arrested -- put under trial of a court martial -- for that dreadful violin sonata, and for that piece, found guilty, and executed by firing squad.


Almost every time you post, I rejoice that you have no political power.


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## science (Oct 14, 2010)

Franck seems to me to be pretty well-known and to deserve it. I've never heard "faith under duress" or anything like that in his symphony - I've never heard that in any work of music, except maybe U2's album _Pop_ - and I don't mind something being serious. People who need everything to be funny ought to be arrested -- put under trial of a court martial -- found guilty, and executed by firing squad.

And I love the violin sonata. People who don't appreciate that ought to be arrested -- put under trial of a court martial -- found guilty, and executed by firing squad.


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## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

science said:


> Franck seems to me to be pretty well-known and to deserve it. I've never heard "faith under duress" or anything like that in his symphony - I've never heard that in any work of music, except maybe U2's album _Pop_ - and I don't mind something being serious. People who need everything to be funny ought to be arrested -- put under trial of a court martial -- found guilty, and executed by firing squad.
> 
> And I love the violin sonata. People who don't appreciate that ought to be arrested -- put under trial of a court martial -- found guilty, and executed by firing squad.


I've heard 'faith under duress' in the music since first listening, sometime before 1960. I insist on trial in a civilian court (the firing squad part is OK).


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## science (Oct 14, 2010)

Hilltroll72 said:


> I've heard 'faith under duress' in the music since first listening, sometime before 1960. I insist on trial in a civilian court (the firing squad part is OK).


Consider yourself lucky if you get a trial, very lucky if you get a lawyer or legal council, and akin to a winner of multiple lotteries if torture is not used to extract confessions and denunciations of friends and family.


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## msvadi (Apr 14, 2012)

I'm shocked that Bruckner's Symphony 3 is not on the list.



DavidMahler said:


> Here is his exact list as broadcasted by a prestigious radio station in 1963 playing the 20 greatest pieces of classical music as perceived in 1963 by this radio station and its listeners:
> 
> 1. Beethoven - Symphony 5
> 2. Bach - Brandenburg Concertos
> ...


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## Xaltotun (Sep 3, 2010)

Franck's symphony is awesome - it manages to be dignified and passionate at the same time.

Now that we're talking about it, can you guys recommend some spectacular recordings of it? I haven't listened to many, but I do like Stokowski's recording with the Hilversum Radio Philharmonic Orchestra.


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## superhorn (Mar 23, 2010)

If you haven't heard the magnificent symphpony in C major by Paul Dukas,
you don't know what you're missing ! IMHO, it's an even greater work than the Franck,
and also in three movements. 
When you hear it, you'll wonder where it's been all your life. It dates from 1897 , and
for some reason never gained apermanent place in the repertoire . You'lll recognize a
definite Franckian influence , but Dukas has his own distinctive voice .
There are several recordings, among them Jean Martinon on EMI , Leonard Slatkin on RCA, Yan Pascal Toretelier on Chandos,
the late Jean Fournet on Denon, which may or may not be available .
I got to know it back in the dinosaur era of LPs with a long out of print but great
recording with Walter Weller and the London Philharmonic. This should definitley be reissued,
and if it is, grab it !
The symphony is full of great themes ,a nd is noble and heroic in character . 
Slatkin did it with the New York Philharmonic some years ago, but I can't recall any other
live performances in America in our time. What a pity !


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## Vesteralen (Jul 14, 2011)

My own musical experience always makes me associate the Franck Symphony with Elgar's First Symphony. I got to know them both around the same time, and they had a similar "tone" to me - Elgar's a more political/secular version of the same thing. Heard in a certain way, both works can come across as primarily noble. Heard in another way, they can both come across as a bit stodgy.

I prefer the Elgar, because, as was pointed out previously, that brass chorale theme in the Franck just seems unintentionally comical to me - I really can't think what he was driving at with it.


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

science said:


> Almost every time you post, I rejoice that you have no political power.


Politicians are so eager to be in politics they quite knowingly and voluntarily give up their 'right' to say what they think -- making them far more dangerous than a non-politician who says what they think.

Religious ecstasy, 'personal musical statement' all sound very new-age and not at all what could have been on anyone's mind when Franck wrote this piece. That is psycho-babble talk about one individual's reaction vs. a bunch of notes in a score.

The piece either still holds up, has musical discourse enough to hold your attention and feel something, or it does not. It does not, for me, 'do anything.,' - but then, no Franck 'does anything' for me except sound like some horribly academic exercise already dated at the time it was written....

So there is the reaction of my personal taste re: Franck. Be happy I am not a politician - I am more happy about not being a politician than you can imagine: I'd find it impossible to not open my mouth and say it like I thought it was


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## bigshot (Nov 22, 2011)

I was first introduced to Franck's symphony by Giulini's version with The Berlin Philharmonic. I've gotten others since then, but that's still my favorite.

It's coupled with an equally fantastic Psyche et Eros


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## Jaws (Jun 4, 2011)

It always sounds to me as if he composed it at the organ and then orchestrated it. It somehow doesn't really work as an orchestral piece. The organ influence always makes it feel to me as if the orchestral balance is strange.


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## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

Jaws said:


> It always sounds to me as if he composed it at the organ and then orchestrated it. It somehow doesn't really work as an orchestral piece. The organ influence always makes it feel to me as if the orchestral balance is strange.


I can appreciate this idea but I don't think the work unduly suffers as a result. Maybe it could be argued that Bruckner composed his symphonies along similar lines.


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## science (Oct 14, 2010)

elgars ghost said:


> I can appreciate this idea but I don't think the work unduly suffers as a result. Maybe it could be argued that Bruckner composed his symphonies along similar lines.


I've heard this expressed as praise of Bruckner.


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## aaroncopland (May 14, 2012)

I recently discovered Francks symphony and it quickly became one of my favorites. I'm not entirely sure why he had the bass trombone playing the melody with the 1st violins, and thats as a bass trombone player (but it is still fun  ) but I love the way he builds the themes and the intensity of the first movement. Such a great piece.


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## arkadinho (Mar 21, 2016)

Unbelievable. Spot listened to nearly 60 performances of this work choosing two from each batch of 10. The final 12 included two Monteux with Chicago and San Fran, Muti, Klemperer, Kondrashin, etc. Made an effort however to listen to them blindly eventually filtering it down to one favorite. And the surprise winner is? An obscure (I suspect) 1951 Paris Conservatory performance with Roger Desormiere at the helm. Never heard of him. 

I wonder if I'm the only one who feels that this is the best performance of the Franck Symphony out there?

Also, the runner up was another unknown (at least to me): Takashi Asahina & NDR SO from 1966. I guess this is what can happen if you try to make your choice blindly without knowing in advance who is playing lol


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## 89Koechel (Nov 25, 2017)

arkadinho - (Desormiere) - Actually, there's a great recording of Debussy's Pelleas et Melisande (1941) with Desormiere, conducting. It has an excellent cast (Etcheverry, Germain Cernay, Irene Joachim) and shows what Desormiere could accomplish, with French music. I'd like to hear the latter in the Franck, also! Thanks.


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## 89Koechel (Nov 25, 2017)

Franck/Desormiere - Just found it, on YouTube. Thanks.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

elgars ghost said:


> I can appreciate this idea but I don't think the work unduly suffers as a result. Maybe it could be argued that Bruckner composed his symphonies along similar lines.


To me, Bruckner is more like organ + Schubert + religious music

*Requiem in D minor, WAB 39*
"[There] are many passages reminiscent of what was even then, in 1848/49, a past age (the very opening points irresistibly to Mozart's Requiem in the same key), and though the very inclusion of a figured bass for organ continuo strikes one as backward looking, there are already several flashes of the later, great Bruckner to come.
[Despite it] is by no means a perfect masterpiece... [it] can be said to be the first full demonstration that the young man was a composer of inestimable promise. ... [The] expressively reticent opening of the opening of the Requiem, with his softly shifting syncopations in the strings ... already faintly anticipates one or two of his own symphonic passages in the two earlier D minor symphonies, for instance Nos. '0' and 3... [We] cannot escape the solemn beauty of this music, which already has the authentic atmosphere of natural genius."


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## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

If one looks at that early 60s top 20, both Mahler and Bruckner are missing. I doubt their symphonies dominated 21 to 40. The Franck is still a well known piece, far more than Chausson, Dukas or Magnard symphonies. Symphonies by Mahler, Bruckner, maybe also Nielsen, Sibelius, Shostakovich, Prokofiev became more popular and the standard late romantic Franck might appear a bit old fashioned. The variations and prelude choral fugue were also more common in the 50s and 60s.


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## Eclectic Al (Apr 23, 2020)

Kreisler jr said:


> If one looks at that early 60s top 20, both Mahler and Bruckner are missing. I doubt their symphonies dominated 21 to 40. The Franck is still a well known piece, far more than Chausson, Dukas or Magnard symphonies. Symphonies by Mahler, Bruckner, maybe also Nielsen, Sibelius, Shostakovich, Prokofiev became more popular and the standard late romantic Franck might appear a bit old fashioned. The variations and prelude choral fugue were also more common in the 50s and 60s.


I love the Prelude, Choral and Fugue. I only have the Bolet recording (which I'm happy with), but if anyone had other suggestions??


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## BrahmsWasAGreatMelodist (Jan 13, 2019)

^^^

Richter's 1958 PCF is among my favorite piano performances of anything by anyone.


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

I haven't listened to it for years, but I've always admired the symphony. Using transformations of the same theme for all three movements and yet imbuing each with an individual personality and expressive qualities in violent contrast to the others is a good idea and well executed. Maybe I should listen again and see if this favorable opinion formed long ago holds up.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

EdwardBast said:


> I haven't listened to it for years, but I've always admired the symphony. Using transformations of the same theme for all three movements and yet imbuing each with an individual personality and expressive qualities in violent contrast to the others is a good idea and well executed. Maybe I should listen again and see if this favorable opinion formed long ago holds up.


Sure, but It strikes me as a bit obvious and not very subtle, kind of like "variations". Brahms Op.90 is closer to my ideal type in this regard.


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## superhorn (Mar 23, 2010)

Back about 50, 60 or 70 years ago , the Franck symphony was performed constantly by orchestras, at least in the US , but for some reason it has pretty much fallen out of the repertoire, which is unfortunate , although I'm sure it still gets performed by some orchestras .
There have been outstanding recordings of it by Monteux, Munch , Bernstein , Barenboim, Paray, Klemperer and many other leading conductors, but there haven't been too many more recent ones .
There is even a period instruments ! recording with Philippe Herreweghe conducting .


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

EdwardBast said:


> I haven't listened to it for years, but I've always admired the symphony. Using transformations of the same theme for all three movements and yet imbuing each with an individual personality and expressive qualities in violent contrast to the others is a good idea and well executed. Maybe I should listen again and see if this favorable opinion formed long ago holds up.


I also like the rhythmic figure Franck uses in both the first and third movements, 3 + 3+ 2...provides another point of unity along with the thematic repetitions...


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## larold (Jul 20, 2017)

The Franck D minor symphony has taken quite a fall from relevance in the past half-century, when it was considered an important symphony in the standard repertoire through the 1960s.

Its fame was being a cyclical Romantic symphony -- the main themes cycled throughout the music, coming back again and again.

Its disappearance after the 1960s is likely because its primary advocates -- Charles Munch, Ernest Ansermet, Paul Paray and Pierre Monteaux -- all died around that time. I think it was probably also forgotten during the Mahler explosion that has taken place on concert schedules everywhere.

Today's French specialists and those that record French music haven't been keen on his symphony. There were a couple new recordings in recent years, however. That hasn't translated thus far into it returning to concert schedules.

I think without question it is a "top 100" piece of music on a par with the "Organ" symphony of Camille St. Saens with which it used to be oft-recorded. 

The fact that it has been shuttered for the likes of Mahler's 6th and 8th symphonies is popularity more than artistry. Classical music concert scheduling is a copycat industry -- when something becomes popular everyone does it.


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## Coach G (Apr 22, 2020)

Cesar Franck's only symphony is top-notch; dramatic, vibrant, and well-crafted. It deserves a place central to the standard repertoire. I'm not a huge fan of Franck's music; but the symphony is an exception and I think that Pierre Monteux pretty much got it just right with the Chicago Symphony Orchestra. Someone mentioned that Franck composed his most popular works past the age of 60. Pianists Rudolf Serkin and Vladimir Horowitz were still turning out quality recordings well into their 70s. And Elliott Carter was composing music past the age of 100. This should give hope to the over 50 crowd, to which I am now a member, that the idea that the cognitive and physical decline that we often see as a natural part of the aging process may be to some extent based on mythology.


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## Roger Knox (Jul 19, 2017)

In addition to Cesar Franck's important Symphony in D Minor, there are many symphonies and other orchestral works in the line of Franck, D'Indy, and the Schola Cantorum that are under-recognized. I initiated a thread in the Orchestral Music sub-forum, "Unheralded French orchestral composers of the late romantic era" where there is information and discussion of these works up to those of Roussel and Tournemire, the two composers who David Hurwitz says wrote the best French symphonies of the 20th century. A revival of orchestral performances and recordings in the near future will be incomplete if these composers are not included, and this is a matter of concern for the whole orchestral music world, not only that of France. And there is a lot that has not been explored in depth: the music of the east in relation to Roussel; or the dialogue between Tournemire and Messiaen that resulted in Messiaen's _The Technique of My Musical Language_ (1942).


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## BrahmsWasAGreatMelodist (Jan 13, 2019)

larold said:


> Classical music concert scheduling is a copycat industry -- when something becomes popular everyone does it.


This is a good point, and actually I'm considering doing my college senior thesis on modelling (mathematically) how the popularity of concert repertoire - particularly modern music - waxes and wanes (what factors contribute to the spread / decay of a piece's popularity).


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## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

Roger Knox said:


> In addition to Cesar Franck's important Symphony in D Minor, there are many symphonies and other orchestral works in the line of Franck, D'Indy, and the Schola Cantorum that are under-recognized.


But these pieces such as even Chausson, D'Indy, Magnard etc. were under-recognized all the time. There were not so popular that they would be in the top 20 of a radio station poll in the early 1960s. The distinctive point about Franck's symphony is that it seems to have fallen from the top not into obscurity but to a far more modest position in the repertoire.
As I wrote above, I think the reason is that while the repertoire is always slowly changing and maybe also expanding, many expansion will lead to other pieces getting less attention, sometimes considerably less. I am pretty sure than almost any Mahler, Bruckner, Sibelius, Nielsen, Shostakovich symphony was less often played/recorded in the early 1960s than nowadays and their establishing in the repertoire was probably one factor for the Franck symphony being diminished. It is also surprising how much of the early 20th century classics were still considered "modern" or exotic and not as firmly in the repertoire in the 1960s.


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## cybernaut (Feb 6, 2021)

I only last week heard it for the first time, and I immediately liked it. I'm not a musicologist, and my comparisons may be laughable to some....but Franck's symphony appeals to the Mahler-lover and Bruckner-lover in me.

The version I heard is Ozawa with Boston SO.


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## Merl (Jul 28, 2016)

There's a similar thread to this on the Franck Symphony in D elsewhere on TC (linked below). There's some excellent comments and observations on there that make interesting reading, too, especially regarding its fall from grace and possible reasons for this. I've always enjoyed it, personally, and have a lot of recordings (eg. Munch / Boston, Paray, Bychkov , Chailly, Ozawa, Dutoit, etc).

Franck's Symphony in D minor

Although I rarely agree with many of the recordings Peter Gutmann rates so highly in his Classical Notes series he makes some great observations and his Franck notes are always highly informative. The page below is an excellent read for those wishing to know more about this symphony.

http://www.classicalnotes.net/classics3/franck.html


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

cybernaut said:


> I only last week heard it for the first time, and I immediately liked it. I'm not a musicologist, and my comparisons may be laughable to some....but Franck's symphony appeals to the Mahler-lover and Bruckner-lover in me.


Your comparisons are not laughable at all....the d minor is a beautifully crafted work..a wonderful example of cyclic composition - bringing back earlier themes in subsequent movements...it produces a unity that is very effective....Franck really used that "French Wagner" sound, also....heavy low brass presence...lots of melody, counter- melodies in the bass instruments


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## cybernaut (Feb 6, 2021)

I'm now listening to Giulini's version, with the Vienna Philharmonic. Loving it.

You can listen on Spotify:


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

Heck148 said:


> Franck really used that "French Wagner" sound


Does this count as "French Wagner" sound?:
0:18


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

hammeredklavier said:


> Does this count as "French Wagner" sound?:
> 0:18


Lol!! Not what I had in mind...


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## 89Koechel (Nov 25, 2017)

Yes, indeed, Heck148 (and cybernaut), the D Symphony is truly one of the best, of the French tradition (maybe I could mention Bizet's 1st, also?). One could also hope that you guys, and others, would investigate another work of Cesar F - the great "Le Chasseur Maudit"/The Accursed Huntsman ... and I know it's been noted/mentioned before, in this internet site.


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