# Questions about Götterdämmerung.



## macgeek2005 (Apr 1, 2006)

So, I've finally watched Götterdämmering, and before I watch it a second time, I'd like to have a better understanding of a few things.

First of all, when Hagen summons everybody to "battle," and shouts "woe, woe" etc... I didn't get it. There isn't actually an enemy. He then orders them to kill animals and prepare for a wedding. What does it mean that he initially presents it as a dramatic military situation? Is it supposed to be darkly comic somehow?

And secondly, why doesn't Brünnhilde have a more realistic emotional reaction when she see Siegfried not recognizing or remembering her? Normally people would say "Siegfried! It's me.. Brünnhilde.. what are you doing? What's going on?" etc. She seems kind of distanced from it somehow, as if she's going too quickly into a phase of "already knowing what happened" or something. She never really talks to Siegfried.. she just freaks out a bit.. it's not realistic at all that she wouldn't run up to Siegfried and look him in the eyes and ask him what's going on.

Thanks!


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## Chi_townPhilly (Apr 21, 2007)

macgeek2005 said:


> So, I've finally watched Götterdämmering, and before I watch it a second time, I'd like to have a better understanding of a few things.
> 
> First of all, when Hagen summons everybody to "battle," ..._s it supposed to be darkly comic somehow?_


_That's a fair conclusion, I think.

Think of the scene as perhaps opera's greatest "wind-up." Hagen, here playing a role he's doubtless played at few times before, i.e.: the Gibich Castellan and deputy for Gunther, summoning the throng and whipping them into a state of agitation- only to say "sacrifice to all the relevant gods, go and get blotto on their behalf... we're planning a wedding!"

[At the risk of picking a bone (and cherry-picking one at that), I think that Thomas May (who wrote Decoding Wagner) has it wrong when he says that Hagen is 'humorless.' Even though Wagner gives stage instructions for Hagen to be intently serious-looking throughout this scene, to nearly the very last, the effect is like that of a quality "straight-man" in a comedy duo- who recognizes that what he does is ultimately meant to be VERY funny, even if he doesn't give any early sign of showing it.]

One more thing, though- he concludes the assembly by saying "if any ill should befall Brünnhilde, be quick to avenge her!" So- even in the very heart of the levity, he's putting the framework in place to alibi the murder of Siegfried.

So (like the Star Wars emperor in that scene with Vader and Luke), Hagen can be justified in feeling that "everything that is taking place is doing so acccording to *my* designs."


macgeek2005 said:



And secondly, why doesn't Brünnhilde have a more realistic emotional reaction when she see Siegfried not recognizing or remembering her? Normally people would say "Siegfried! It's me.. Brünnhilde.. what are you doing? What's going on?" etc. She seems kind of distanced from it somehow, as if she's going too quickly into a phase of "already knowing what happened" or something. She never really talks to Siegfried.. she just freaks out a bit.. it's not realistic at all that she wouldn't run up to Siegfried and look him in the eyes and ask him what's going on.

Click to expand...

In order to keep the conversation going, (and also because I believe we'll get a better answer that way), I'd be interested in what some our our feminine contributors have to say about this query._


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

LOL, "Siegfried! It's me.. Brünnhilde.. what are you doing? What's going on?" sounds so un-Wagnerian...:lol:


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## macgeek2005 (Apr 1, 2006)

Yeah, I know it's sounds unwagnerian, but nowhere in reality would such a scene happen without the woman running up to the man and physically grabbing him and shaking him in disbelief. She never asks him why he's behaving as though he doesn't know her. I don't think there's any way to justify it... it's extremely unrealistic. I really hope there's an explanation though.. I'll enjoy watching it a lot more if there is.


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

I think she is deeply hurt and shaken in her pride (in some productions she has obviously already been raped by Gunther). Don't forget she's been publicly humiliated and now the man she loves seems to be "just not that into her" in front of all these people.


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

Well, we have to also realize that Brünnhilde is a proud and fierce ex-goddess. She's not the kind who will beg. It's also rekindling of trauma. Of the two most important men in her life, Wotan and Siegfried, the first had already hurt and disappointed her, and then the second one does the same. She may have thought "that's what men do" and may have felt angry and resentful rather than inclined to fight back and try to bring him back to her. Actually many of the things she subsequently says show lots of anger.


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## amfortas (Jun 15, 2011)

I agree that there can be a certain amount of psychological justification for Brünnhilde's behavior in Götterdämmerung. For me, though, her bitter, vengeful persona has always seemed inconsistent with, and a big disappointment after, the heroic, loving figure we met in Die Walküre. 

Part of the difficulty is that Wagner wrote the story of the Ring cycle backwards. Starting with Götterdämmerung, his original conception of Brünnhilde was largely dictated by her portrayal in Norse and German epics. But as he wrote Siegfried and then Die Walküre, he expanded his idea of the character beyond anything in his sources. 

So as we progress through the operas in their narrative order, we gradually move from Wagner's own powerful inspiration further and further into the narrow straitjacket of his source material, which in many ways he had outgrown over the decades he worked on the Ring.

This is a big reason why I, for one, have always found Götterdämmerung, for all its spectacular moments, to be a significant falling off from the heights reached in Die Walküre. I'm not alone in this response; George Bernard Shaw, for example, famously dismissed Götterdämmerung as "nothing but opera."


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

amfortas said:


> I agree that there can be a certain amount of psychological justification for Brünnhilde's behavior in Götterdämmerung. For me, though, her bitter, vengeful persona has always seemed inconsistent with, and a big disappointment after, the heroic, loving figure we met in Die Walküre.


She was asleep on a rock for about 15 years. I'm guessing her neck and back are pretty damn sore. What kind of a mood would you be in?


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## amfortas (Jun 15, 2011)

Couchie said:


> She was asleep on a rock for about 15 years. I'm guessing her neck and back are pretty damn sore. What kind of a mood would you be in?


I've got me one of those Sleep Number Rocks, individually adjustable for my ideal comfort level and a perfect night's rest every time. My rock number is 46--what's yours?


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## macgeek2005 (Apr 1, 2006)

Have they used Wotan's farewell in any mattress commercials?

"I will lock you in defenseless sleep.. but I will give you the Brand New bla bla bla, so your sleep will be comfortable." :lol:


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## myaskovsky2002 (Oct 3, 2010)

Here...Richard...Wagner...What do you want to know exactly?

Richard Wagner


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

myaskovsky2002 said:


> Here...Richard...Wagner...What do you want to know exactly?
> 
> Richard Wagner


Why were you all crazy-mad at the loveable Jews, Mr. Wagner?


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## CountessAdele (Aug 25, 2011)

I havn't actually seen or heard this opera but in the synopsis I read, it said that Siegfried (having taken the forget potion and promising Gunther to get Brunnhilde for him) goes to Brunnhilde disguised as Gunther and rapes her or overpowers her (its a little vague but I think its the first) and also takes the ring back from her and puts it on. Later as she's lead to the real Gunther she's shocked to see Siegfried untill she notices the ring on his finger, so then she's super mad and upset cause she knows it was him and not Gunther that raped her. So she calls him out on it, thinking that he must have been treacherous the whole time they were together and was just good at hiding it. So I hope that helps, and that it was accurate, I'm not really sure.


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

CountessAdele said:


> I havn't actually seen or heard this opera but in the synopsis I read, it said that Siegfried (having taken the forget potion and promising Gunther to get Brunnhilde for him) goes to Brunnhilde disguised as Gunther and rapes her or overpowers her (its a little vague but I think its the first) and also takes the ring back from her and puts it on. Later as she's lead to the real Gunther she's shocked to see Siegfried untill she notices the ring on his finger, so then she's super mad and upset cause she knows it was him and not Gunther that raped her. So she calls him out on it, thinking that he must have been treacherous the whole time they were together and was just good at hiding it. So I hope that helps, and that it was accurate, I'm not really sure.


No, I think it's clear that Gunther, not Siegried, raped her:

GUTRUNE: So you overcame the intrepid woman?

SIEGFRIED: She surrendered - to Gunther's strenght.

GUTRUNE: And she was married to you?

SIEGFRIED: Brünnhilde submitted to her husband
throughout the bridal night.

GUTRUNE: But you passed for her husband?

SIEGFRIED: Siegfried remained here with Gutrune.

........

GUTRUNE: How now did Gunther take over from you?

SIEGFRIED: Through the fire's dying flames
she followed
in the morning mist from the rock to the valley;
near the shore,
Gunther in a trice
changed places with me:
through the Tarnhelm's power


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## CountessAdele (Aug 25, 2011)

Hmm, your probably right about the rape, however what about that business with Siegfried in disguise taking the ring and wearing it? If that did happen then did the part about her noticing it and feeling betrayed happen? If so, she would've been upset by Gunther raping her and felt angry and betrayed by Siegfried for selling her out like that. So if this new theory is correct, it could explain her reaction. What do you who've seen it think? Does this jive?


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## amfortas (Jun 15, 2011)

The truth is, I've never made a real effort to sort it all out. I've always found the whole business a bit disheartening--kind of underhanded, petty, and trivial after the earlier heights of the Ring cycle. As Brunnhilde says later on, "children crying over spilled milk."

But that's just me being old and crotchety. Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain.


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## myaskovsky2002 (Oct 3, 2010)

*Difficult answers*



Couchie said:


> Why were you all crazy-mad at the loveable Jews, Mr. Wagner?


Well.....ask something else....



Richard


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## Sieglinde (Oct 25, 2009)

I don't think he raped her, he put Nothung between them.


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