# Favorite Strauss (R)



## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

I've been spending way too much time with Strauss lately. I do find that if I play Rosenkavalier or Ariadne auf Naxos without carefully listening - that is, in the background, while doing something else with my mind - the music sneaks in in a rather pleasant way. I have yet to try that with Frau ohne Schatten or any other Strauss opera, but I've got to wondering: which is your favorite Strauss opera and why, and what's your listening practice? That is, careful attention, music only, video only, only while doing something else, or what?


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## SiegendesLicht (Mar 4, 2012)

Hmmm... I think I'll go with the Alpine Symphony and the Four Last Songs.


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## AndyS (Dec 2, 2011)

Salome for me.

Love the plot (nice and grotesque). Love the music. Absolutely love the final scene! One of my favourite pieces of music


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## ahammel (Oct 10, 2012)

SiegendesLicht said:


> Hmmm... I think I'll go with the Alpine Symphony and the Four Last Songs.


Excellent choices, but I suspect that the OP meant operas.


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## Cavaradossi (Aug 2, 2012)

I don't feel like I've delved fully enough into Strauss to cast an adequately educated vote, so for now I'll go with SiegendesLicht's options. Of what I've seen, Salome/Elektra is too hard, Rosenkavalier is too soft, and I have yet to find that 'just right' option that moves me as much as his greatest orchestral works. Not to say I didn't enjoy those operas immensely. What I'm starting to figure out is that despite all the neo-romantic and neo-classical trappings, the drama in his operas is firmly planted in the 20th century.


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## deggial (Jan 20, 2013)

Cavaradossi said:


> What I'm starting to figure out is that despite all the neo-romantic and neo-classical trappings, the drama in his operas is firmly planted in the 20th century.


forsooth! (sorry, just wanted to use that ) but, yea, it's true. It's such an attractive combo, with all the clever references. So then what do you think of Capriccio? I find it proto post-modern.


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## Amateur (Mar 21, 2013)

Never enjoyed Strauss tone poems much until I heard him conduct and make these works sound as lithe and lyrical as Mozart. 
(Ironically the Strauss Mozart recordings are somewhat disappointing.)
Forced to choose just one work: Death and Transfiguration. 
But also have come to love Zarathustra and of course Don Juan.


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## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

Cavaradossi said:


> What I'm starting to figure out is that despite all the neo-romantic and neo-classical trappings, the drama in his operas is firmly planted in the 20th century.


Hmm ... I don't suppose you could unpack that a bit, could you? I haven't experienced enough of his operas to be a good judge in general, myself, but I didn't see anything 20th century about Elektra. To me, Elektra was written as though he were writing for Greeks - and 5th century BC Greeks, at that. But I may be misremembering it, too!

Rosenkavalier, now ... a distinct 20th century tone, in terms of men's public understanding of the complexity of women. But is the Marschallin actually more complex than Norma or Despina? I don't know. (Not sure the word "actually" makes much sense there, but what the heck ...)


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## MAuer (Feb 6, 2011)

So far, _Der Rosenkavalier_, _Salome_, and _Guntram_ are the only Strauss operas with which I'm familiar. I really need to explore his other ones before I choose a favorite.


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## deggial (Jan 20, 2013)

guythegreg said:


> But is the Marschallin actually more complex than Norma or Despina?


interestingly phrased. Why would we assume they understood women less in the 18th and 19th centuries? I'd say both Norma and Despina are pretty complex.


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## StlukesguildOhio (Dec 25, 2006)

Strauss is undoubtedly my favorite 20th century composer... and IMO the greatest composer of the 20th century in spite of my admiration for Bartok, Stravinsky, Prokofiev, and Shostakovitch. For all the brilliance of his great orchestral works, I am of the opinion that his efforts in opera and lieder are what really set him apart. Forced to choose a single favorite work it would almost certainly be the _Four Last Songs_. Among his operas, _Salome_ remains my favorite, but I find _Elektra, Der Rosenkavalier_ and _Die Frau ohne Schatten_ to be nearly as good, and _Ariadne auf Naxos, Capriccio,_ and _Daphne_ are all marvelous works... while even _Die ägyptische Helena_ with it's comically bad story-line has many passages of exquisite music.


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

Not is quite as endearing as the endless display of women shrieking at each other in _Elektra_.


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## Chi_townPhilly (Apr 21, 2007)

*The verdict's already in-*

- and it's not close...

Der Rosenkavalier.

Of course, that project was a moment from our forum history- and maybe there's new history to be made here. Still, when we were working this out, we were willing to call it a top-10 opera, our favorite 20th century opera, and our top German opera post-Ring Cycle.

Do I agree with that collective judgement? Not entirely-- but I'd say I have more agreement than disagreement. I wouldn't have made it a top-10 opera, but I think it's a solid top-20 one. It is _my_ favorite 20th century opera... and I believe it to be the top German opera since Wagner penned the last note of _Parsifal_.


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## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

deggial said:


> interestingly phrased. Why would we assume they understood women less in the 18th and 19th centuries? I'd say both Norma and Despina are pretty complex.


That's what I was thinking. And what is the Marschallin most famous for, after giving up her lover to a younger lady? Going around her house and stopping the clocks because she's afraid of growing old. Not a deep thinker.


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## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

Well I see that so far, Rosenkavalier and Salome are in the lead. Sadly (or not), I listened to much of Rosenkavalier again last night and I still can't stand the plot. What the heck is an opera without a plot? I'm sorry, the Baron is just too much of a boob. It's like Strauss took the cast of Barber of Seville (Sophie = Rosina, Octavian = Almaviva, Marschallin = Barber, Baron = Bartolo) and made Bartolo REALLY REALLY UNPLEASANT and made the Barber subtle and demure. Yeah, that's what the Barber needed: subtle and demure. What saves the Barber is that Bartolo actually seems to have feelings for Rosina, while the Baron is just someone who should have been shot as a child, to save us all.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Rosenkavalier has gorgeous, gorgeous music but for me too much of it is dialogue style. Elektra is my favorite opera when done well. Nilsson, Varnay and Rysekek are my favorites. Nilsson was even fabulous at 61 in the role televised. The music is so crazy and ecstatic and gorgeous. It is an opera that you get caught up in. Ariadne is also a favorite and it is my favorite role by Jessye Norman.


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## Glissando (Nov 25, 2011)

_Salome_ and _Elektra_ are my two favorites, and out of those two I would choose _Salome_ because I more often find myself wanting to listen to it. _Elektra_ is harsh and piercing, both in its plot and its music - _Salome_ is airier and lighter of texture. Both operas are masterpieces.

_Rosenkavalier_ has some impressive musical moments, but it's too long, and the plot is pretty superficial and cartoonish, on a human level. _Die Frau Ohne Schatten_ is quite impressive, but musically it doesn't really break any ground that _Salome_ hadn't already covered. Those four operas are the only ones I'm familiar with as of yet.


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## deggial (Jan 20, 2013)

*@greg:* the Barber and the Rosenkavalier! I expanded my parallel between Der Rosenkavalier and Alcina in another thread, so I think your take is quite unusual. I could see the Rosina and Almaviva comparisons and possibly the Bartolo one, but I'm not so sure about the Marschallin and Figaro... I agree the Marschallin is subtle, but demure she is not in the least. She is simply very clear headed and practical in the face of the inevitable. A wry comparison is being made between her take on tackling old age and Ochs'. Ochs fights it desperately (you've got to feel for him as well, he's getting humiliated left and right by youth; I wonder how he was when he was young and whether Octavian will turn into him in 30-40 years), whereas she accepts it when she realises there is nothing to be done. She's thoughtful and dignified. Two different ways of dealing with the onset of old age.

there is a plot, it's just not exactly action centred. For all the silliness and frolicking, the mood is often pensive.


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## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

deggial said:


> I agree the Marschallin is subtle, but demure she is not in the least. She is simply very clear headed and practical in the face of the inevitable.


Well, I'm not sure demure is the word, but you notice how she never addresses a man directly? It's always "Er" this and "Er" that. And then the Baron barges into her dressing room, for gawd's sake, and she doesn't say just get out ... which, as the Marschallin, she could certainly do. And Octavian has a self-obsessed hissy fit over her lack of total attention to him, and she spends an hour and a half kissing up to him.



> Ochs fights it desperately (you've got to feel for him as well, he's getting humiliated left and right by youth; I wonder how he was when he was young and whether Octavian will turn into him in 30-40 years) ...


lol now there's a rabid notion ... Octavian in 30 years as Ochs! I can't see Octavian ever threatening to force himself on a woman, as the Baron has no compunction at doing ... obviously feels there's nothing wrong with it. I hope you will not mind if I personally do not feel for the Baron ... what I feel is that his character is all too realistic, and that there are too many people today who have the same mindset, if not as clearly expressed.


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## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

Seattleoperafan said:


> Rosenkavalier has gorgeous, gorgeous music but for me too much of it is dialogue style.


Couldn't have said it better myself ... I'm coming to appreciate the music, actually, but if all you're there for is the music, you might as well play the best on your CD player and save the price of the ticket.


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## deggial (Jan 20, 2013)

guythegreg said:


> Well, I'm not sure demure is the word, but you notice how she never addresses a man directly? It's always "Er" this and "Er" that. And then the Baron barges into her dressing room, for gawd's sake, and she doesn't say just get out ... which, as the Marschallin, she could certainly do. And Octavian has a self-obsessed hissy fit over her lack of total attention to him, and she spends an hour and a half kissing up to him.


I always thought she was sort benignly putting up with his boorishness. I think she is fond of him in her own way, as much as he repels her. He's very open with her and I sense that he does respect her in some way (let's not forget that for all he knows, the Marschallin is aware he's coming to visit and she probably knows his MO, ie, that when he's dropping by he's not one to wait). They have a sibling relationship going on, imo. Also, I feel she might want to get on with her day (you know when she says to Octavian that everything has a time and a place), which she couldn't do if Octavian had his way. Yea, the boy is quite hilariously teenager-y, with his disregard for anything else except for what he wants, but again, I think she mostly finds this adorable. And maybe it's a way for the plot to juxtapose their reactions in relation to their ages so that it's clear to us that they're hardly on the same page.



> lol now there's a rabid notion ... Octavian in 30 years as Ochs! I can't see Octavian ever threatening to force himself on a woman, as the Baron has no compunction at doing ... obviously feels there's nothing wrong with it. I hope you will not mind if I personally do not feel for the Baron ... what I feel is that his character is all too realistic, and that there are too many people today who have the same mindset, if not as clearly expressed.


...nah, I don't have a problem with you being hard on Ochs. I was feeling sorry for him because he's typically abused by audiences. Octavian is obviously better looking, so he might never need to force himself, hehe. It's still an entertaining thought to imagine him in 30 years, when he's tired of Sophie, who's been popping out sprogs left and right and isn't as fresh as she used to. I mean, how long did it take for Almaviva to get tired of Rosina?


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## MAuer (Feb 6, 2011)

deggial said:


> [A wry comparison is being made between her take on tackling old age and Ochs'. Ochs fights it desperately (you've got to feel for him as well, he's getting humiliated left and right by youth; I wonder how he was when he was young and whether Octavian will turn into him in 30-40 years), whereas she accepts it when she realises there is nothing to be done. She's thoughtful and dignified. Two different ways of dealing with the onset of old age.


Isn't the Marschallin actually in her 30s? Of course, in the late 18th century, that probably would have been considered middle age. Now, we regard folks in their 30s as still young.


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## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

MAuer said:


> Isn't the Marschallin actually in her 30s?


that would be a cute idea for a poll - guess the age of the Marschallin. My guess: 39.99999.



> Now, we regard folks in their 30s as still young.


Well ... "Now," kind of depends on how old YOU are. I mean, if you're seventeen, I doubt you regard someone in their 30s as young. For myself, the older I get, the younger old people seem ...


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## deggial (Jan 20, 2013)

MAuer said:


> Isn't the Marschallin actually in her 30s? Of course, in the late 18th century, that probably would have been considered middle age. Now, we regard folks in their 30s as still young.


I think she's supposed to be around 35. From what I understand, back then that was considered a bit past it.


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## Cavaradossi (Aug 2, 2012)

guythegreg said:


> Hmm ... I don't suppose you could unpack that a bit, could you? I haven't experienced enough of his operas to be a good judge in general, myself, but I didn't see anything 20th century about Elektra. To me, Elektra was written as though he were writing for Greeks - and 5th century BC Greeks, at that. But I may be misremembering it, too!
> 
> Rosenkavalier, now ... a distinct 20th century tone, in terms of men's public understanding of the complexity of women. But is the Marschallin actually more complex than Norma or Despina? I don't know. (Not sure the word "actually" makes much sense there, but what the heck ...)


Well, I still have a few of the Strauss biggies to experience myself, but... I guess what I'm trying to say is that, so far, with Strauss I don't feel the need to don my 19th century way-back glasses as I take my seat in the opera house - the way I do with Verdi, Puccini, and, to a lesser extent, Wagner. So many times with those, the first half is a woman following her own will, and the second half is her getting her come-uppance from the men around her.

While we're comparing, look at the Marschallin vs Manon Lescaut. Both Puccini and Massenet's versions feature a scene where throngs of vendors and artisans vie for Manon's attention, just like Act I of Der R-k. And look what happens to poor Manon as a consequence. The Marschallin, by comparison, escapes with a mere reality check, whiich - by the way - she was totally expecting.


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## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

Cavaradossi said:


> ... I guess what I'm trying to say is that, so far, with Strauss I don't feel the need to don my 19th century way-back glasses as I take my seat in the opera house ...


I think I see what you mean. It's really quite interesting how much men's view of women changes within opera - and how different it can be within operas written by the same man. Compare Elvira (I Puritani) to Norma, both by Bellini. Or compare the Marschallin to the Dyer's Wife. I'm sure there's a Mozart example that could be used as well, maybe two or three. There's a main post there, but I don't know what the question is ... :lol: I wonder if a similar disparity could be found in Verdi or Puccini?


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## Cavaradossi (Aug 2, 2012)

guythegreg said:


> ... I wonder if a similar disparity could be found in Verdi or Puccini?


Well, one the one hand, Verdi and Puccini do seem more consistent in making their women suffer. Then again, Puccini wrapped up his career with Turandot tormenting Calaf, and Verdi with Alice Ford and Mistress Quickly tormenting Sir John...


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## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

Cavaradossi said:


> Well, one the one hand, Verdi and Puccini do seem more consistent in making their women suffer. Then again, Puccini wrapped up his career with Turandot tormenting Calaf, and Verdi with Alice Ford and Mistress Quickly tormenting Sir John...


That's true! They (the composers) didn't get as far as complexity, but they made their way to parity at last and at least.


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

Don't forget Minnie - saves her guy by cheating at poker and then pretty much rides up on a white charger and rescues him from hanging.


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## sharik (Jan 23, 2013)

guythegreg said:


> if I play Rosenkavalier or Ariadne auf Naxos without carefully listening - that is, in the background, while doing something else with my mind - the music sneaks in in a rather pleasant way


- a rather strange way of listening to classical music, should have been used with a pop stuff instead, while classical one only makes sense when listened to attentively like immersing your self in it completely to the point when it gets in your veins.


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## sharik (Jan 23, 2013)

and my list is -

1. Der Rosenkavalier
2. Salome
3. Elektra
4. Ariadne Auf Naxos


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