# Criminal composers



## Op.123 (Mar 25, 2013)

Which composers committed crimes? Obviously Gesualdo was a murder, but do you know of any other criminal composers?


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## Novelette (Dec 12, 2012)

Well, Brahms decidedly did _not_ murder cats.

What an absurd rumor... Whether Wagner's or not, it's just silly.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Mosolov, famous composer of Iron Foundry. He was a mean drunk and a brawler. First time, kicked out of the Composer's Union. Second time, seven months in the hoosegow. Those darn composers...

Re Brahms, he used the "Bohemian sparrow-killing bow" that Dvorak gave him. There was no law against killing cats in those days, so he wasn't a criminal.

Bach served almost a month in the Big House. There are more! Wanna see Stravinsky's mug shot?


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## Novelette (Dec 12, 2012)

KenOC said:


> Mosolov, famous composer of Iron Foundry. He was a mean drunk and a brawler. First time, kicked out of the Composer's Union. Second time, seven months in the hoosegow. Those darn composers...
> 
> Re Brahms, he used the "Bohemian sparrow-killing bow" that Dvorak gave him. There was no law against killing cats in those days, so he wasn't a criminal.
> 
> Bach served almost a month in the Big House. There are more! Wanna see Stravinsky's mug shot?


Perhaps there was no law against it, but still, our old Brahms was exonerated. 

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2001/apr/12/highereducation.arts


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

reputedly for arranging "The Star Spangled Banner"


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

From WIKI:
Lloyd Webber has been accused of plagiarism in his works. The Dutch composer Louis Andriessen commented that: "There are two sorts of stealing (in music) - taking something and doing nothing with it, or going to work on what you've stolen. The first is plagiarism. Andrew Lloyd Webber has yet to think up a single note; in fact, the poor guy's never invented one note by himself. That's rather poor".[24]

However, Lloyd Webber's biographer, John Snelson, countered such accusations. He acknowledged, for example, the strong similarity between the Andante movement of Mendelssohn's Violin Concerto in E minor and the Jesus Christ Superstar song "I Don't Know How to Love Him", but wrote that Lloyd Webber:

...brings a new dramatic tension to Mendelssohn's original melody through the confused emotions of Mary Magdalene. The opening theme may be Mendelssohn, but the rhythmic and harmonic treatment along with new lines of highly effective melodic development are Lloyd Webber's. The song works in its own right as its many performers and audiences can witness.[24]

In interviews promoting Amused to Death, Roger Waters, formerly of Pink Floyd, claimed that Lloyd Webber had plagiarised short chromatic riffs from the 1971 song "Echoes" for sections of The Phantom of the Opera, released in 1986; nevertheless, he decided not to file a lawsuit regarding the matter.[25] The songwriter Ray Repp made a similar claim about the same song, but insisted that Lloyd Webber stole the idea from him. Unlike Roger Waters, Ray Repp did decide to file a lawsuit, but the court eventually ruled in Lloyd Webber's favour.[26]

Rick Wakeman, on his Grumpy Old Rockstar tour of 2008, accused Lloyd Webber of borrowing the main riff for the "Phantom of the Opera" tune from a section of his 1977 work "Judas Iscariot" from the album Criminal Record.[citation needed]

Lloyd Webber has also been accused of plagiarising Puccini, most notably in Requiem[27] and The Phantom of the Opera. The Program Guide for the San Francisco Opera's performance (2009-2010 season) of Puccini's Girl of the Golden West states (p. 42):

*"The climactic phrase in Dick Johnson'a aria, "Quello che tacete," bears a strong resemblance to a similar phrase in the Phantom's song, "Music of the Night," in Lloyd Webber's 1986 musical The Phantom of the Opera. Following the musical's success, the Puccini estate filed suit against Lloyd Webber, accusing him of plagiarism, and the suit was settled out of court."*


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Novelette said:


> ...but still, our old Brahms was exonerated.
> 
> http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2001/apr/12/highereducation.arts


The Guardian...a hotbed of pro-Brahms sentiment. Who you gonna trust, the deeply truthful Wagner or the shallow apologists for Brahms?


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## jtbell (Oct 4, 2012)

Henry Cowell was convicted on a "morals" (homosexuality) charge in 1936 and spent four years in San Quentin before being paroled.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Technically speaking, Gesualdo was not a criminal because (it seems) a murder of that type committed by a nobleman of his rank was not a crime at that place and time.


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## brianvds (May 1, 2013)

KenOC said:


> The Guardian...a hotbed of pro-Brahms sentiment. Who you gonna trust, the deeply truthful Wagner or the shallow apologists for Brahms?


In many parts of modern Europe, Wagner's fulminations against Jews would be considered criminal. And Beethoven was not above physically assaulting people. His treatment of his nephew may also have had him investigated by modern child welfare services. I also wonder how many composers that ended up living and working in other countries would today be considered illegal immigrants...

In the world of modern popular music, clashes with the law are so common they hardly even make the news anymore.


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## brianvds (May 1, 2013)

The story about Brahms and the cats has urban legend written all over it. As far as I know he was in fact more fond of animals than of people.

Anyway, I doubt whether Wagner was trying to malign Brahms' attitude toward animal welfare - it seems to me he was maligning Brahms' music, in effect not really saying anything more than "the stuff sounds like a damn cat being slaughtered." Like he was in any position to point fingers in that regard!


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## brianvds (May 1, 2013)

PetrB said:


> reputedly for arranging "The Star Spangled Banner"
> View attachment 17730


A photo for an application of a passport. But he really does look pretty criminal in it, doesn't he? Russian mafia boss!


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

brianvds said:


> And Beethoven was not above physically assaulting people. His treatment of his nephew may also have had him investigated by modern child welfare services.


Some specifics? This is falsehood I believe.


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## Nereffid (Feb 6, 2013)

PetrB said:


> From WIKI:
> Lloyd Webber has been accused of plagiarism in his works. The Dutch composer Louis Andriessen commented that: "There are two sorts of stealing (in music) - taking something and doing nothing with it, or going to work on what you've stolen. The first is plagiarism. Andrew Lloyd Webber has yet to think up a single note; in fact, the poor guy's never invented one note by himself. That's rather poor".[24]
> 
> However, Lloyd Webber's biographer, John Snelson, countered such accusations. He acknowledged, for example, the strong similarity between the Andante movement of Mendelssohn's Violin Concerto in E minor and the Jesus Christ Superstar song "I Don't Know How to Love Him", but wrote that Lloyd Webber:
> ...


Kit & The Widow explain it all:


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## Nereffid (Feb 6, 2013)

English composer Ethel Smyth got two months in the slammer for breaking a window. Wiki:


> In 1910 Smyth joined the Women's Social and Political Union, a suffrage organization, giving up music for two years to devote herself to the cause. Her "The March of the Women" (1911) became the anthem of the women's suffrage movement. When the WSPU's leader, Emmeline Pankhurst, called on members to break a window in the house of any politician who opposed votes for women, Smyth was one of the 109 members who responded to Pankhurst's call. She served two months in Holloway Prison for the act.[6] When her proponent-friend Thomas Beecham went to visit her there, he found suffragettes marching in the quadrangle and singing, as Smyth leaned out a window conducting the song with a toothbrush.[7]


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

Henry Cowell, who was bisexual, was arrested and convicted in 1936 on a "morals" charge involving a 17-year old male. Sentenced to a decade-and-a-half incarceration, he would spend the next four years in San Quentin State Prison.

Wikipedia


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## hello (Apr 5, 2013)

PetrB said:


> Henry Cowell, who was bisexual, was arrested and convicted in 1936 on a "morals" charge involving a 17-year old male. Sentenced to a decade-and-a-half incarceration, he would spend the next four years in San Quentin State Prison.


Jesus Christ, it used to be legal to imprison people for their sexuality, in the United States even?? How far we've come...


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## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

hello said:


> Jesus Christ, it used to be legal to imprison people for their sexuality, in the United States even?? How far we've come...


In the case of most countries, yes, but not all. There are still some places where non-hetero activity is illegal. Zimbabwe is one - perhaps ironic bearing in mind that her first post-Rhodesian president was accused and later convicted of it.


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## StevenOBrien (Jun 27, 2011)

Wagner fought in the May Uprising in Dresden, and was forced to flee to Switzerland to avoid being arrested for treason.

Glenn Gould had a tendency to wear a thick coat, hat and mittens throughout the year regardless of whether it was warm or cold. He was once mistaken for a tramp and arrested while staying in Florida .


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## Kieran (Aug 24, 2010)

KenOC said:


> Technically speaking, Gesualdo was not a criminal because (it seems) a murder of that type committed by a nobleman of his rank was not a crime at that place and time.


Quite proper, too!


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## brianvds (May 1, 2013)

KenOC said:


> Some specifics? This is falsehood I believe.


Can't really remember any details, but if memory serves, he once slapped a waitress in a restaurant. Admittedly after, at the instigation of others, she acted in unseemly manner, basically throwing herself at him. Not sure it would be considered an excuse today.

As for his nephew, he wasn't exactly a good father, though perhaps not to the point where one could describe it as abusive. I am actually not familiar with the details of the case. It seems strange now that a boy would be taken away from his mother by a court of law, unless there were very clear indications that she herself was severely neglecting him?

What I do like about the man is that he was an equal-opportunity abuser: he did not hesitate for a moment to say things to nobles that may well have landed anyone else in prison.


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## brianvds (May 1, 2013)

StevenOBrien said:


> Glenn Gould had a tendency to wear a thick coat, hat and mittens throughout the year regardless of whether it was warm or cold. He was once mistaken for a tramp and arrested while staying in Florida .


Beethoven was also once arrested as a tramp. In the prison cell he gave the policeman on duty a piece of his mind.

"I am BEETHOVEN!!!"

"Yeah, right," said the policeman. But Beethoven made such a racket that eventually the commander was called in, who had to spend a long time profusely apologizing.

Anyway, that's what I once read in the booklet accompanying a set of Beethoven symphonies.


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## Taggart (Feb 14, 2013)

Burroughs said:


> Which composers committed crimes? Obviously Gesualdo was a murder, but do you know of any other criminal composers?


The question of composers' criminal records is usually not down to the composer but rather to the conductor, the soloist or the orchestra!


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## brianvds (May 1, 2013)

hello said:


> Jesus Christ, it used to be legal to imprison people for their sexuality, in the United States even?? How far we've come...


Considering the age of the younger partner in the liaison, Cowell would today get a harsher sentence in many western jurisdictions. As would Oscar Wilde, for that matter. And both would end up on the sex offender registry.


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## Op.123 (Mar 25, 2013)

On April 15, 1940, Stravinsky's unconventional major seventh chord in his arrangement of the Star-Spangled Banner led to his arrest by the Boston police for violating a federal law that prohibited the reharmonization of the National anthem.


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## EricABQ (Jul 10, 2012)

hello said:


> Jesus Christ, it used to be legal to imprison people for their sexuality, in the United States even?? How far we've come...


It remained illegal until 2003 in several states. To be fair, it was rarely enforced, but still.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lawrence_v._Texas


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## ahammel (Oct 10, 2012)

PetrB said:


> Lloyd Webber has been accused of plagiarism in his works.


And he's probably guilty of it, but plagiarism isn't a matter for the criminal courts.

According to the Grove, Joseph Haydn occasionally got himself involved in fraudulent business dealings of some kind, but I can't seem to find any more specifics than that.

Ralph Vaughan Williams wrote bits of _The Lark Ascending_ while observing naval manoeuvres, for which he was arrested as a German spy. Apparently staring intently into the English Channel while scribbling things wasn't such a hot idea during the First World War (he wasn't charged, of course).

Iannis Xenakis fought in the Greek Resistance against both the Axes and subsequently against Churchill's martial law. During the latter, he was _shot in the face by a tank_, which is how he go to look the way he did.

Of course: many composers who lived in Axis-occupied countries (and later the Soviet Union) were guilty of various things that were considered crimes by their governments and were forced to flee.


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## brianvds (May 1, 2013)

ahammel said:


> Of course: many composers who lived in Axis-occupied countries (and later the Soviet Union) were guilty of various things that were considered crimes by their governments and were forced to flee.


And others ended up under suspicion of war crimes simply because they didn't flee. If memory serves, Karl Orff had some trouble with his public image after WWII. And I'll have to go look it up, but if memory serves, after the defeat of Napoleon, Fernando Sor became something of a persona non grata in Spain because he was deemed not to have resisted the French vigorously enough - so he settled in Paris and became rich and famous.


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## starry (Jun 2, 2009)

hello said:


> in the United States even??


Why would you think America would be ahead of everywhere on human rights? It wasn't with slavery.


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## ahammel (Oct 10, 2012)

brianvds said:


> And others ended up under suspicion of war crimes simply because they didn't flee.


Which reminds me: Richard Struass escaped being arrested as a colaborator because one of the American officers involved was a musician and knew who he was. Strauss wrote him a concerto.


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

Nereffid said:


> Kit & The Widow explain it all:


LOL! Oh, yeah. I]"Rachmaninoff comes out of copyright next...."[/I] Lovely.

Thanks!


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## Norse (May 10, 2010)

As I mentioned in another thread, Brahms was once caught smuggling tobacco. He had filled a stocking with his favorite mix, naively thinking the customs agents wouldn't search his bags very well.

On a less 'charming' note, Nicolas Gombert, considered by some to have been the greatest composer of the generation between Josquin and Palestrina, was apparently banished to the galleys for several years for doing something he shouldn't have with a choir boy, before being pardoned, possibly because of his prowess as a composer.


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

hello said:


> Jesus Christ, it used to be legal to imprison people for their sexuality, in the United States even?? How far we've come...


The youth was a minor, seventeen. Legal majority used to be 21, eighteen now (Currently varies in some U.S. states.) That would've been enough, though in the 1930's, it might not have been if that youth had been a young woman.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Burroughs said:


> On April 15, 1940, Stravinsky's unconventional major seventh chord in his arrangement of the Star-Spangled Banner led to his arrest by the Boston police for violating a federal law that prohibited the reharmonization of the National anthem.


Urban myth. This was discussed earlier, I think.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

ahammel said:


> According to the Grove, Joseph Haydn occasionally got himself involved in fraudulent business dealings of some kind, but I can't seem to find any more specifics than that.


Doesn't ring a bell. One of his friends once sold some of his symphonies under his own name, so Haydn was evidently a victim of fraud. But he remained on good terms with his friend, which seems odd.


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

Another rip-off which did result in a successful outcome for the plainants.

again, from Wikipedia....
"Avalon" is a 1920 popular song written by Al Jolson, Buddy DeSylva and Vincent Rose.[1] It was introduced by Jolson and interpolated in the musicals Sinbad and Bombo. Jolson's recording rose to number two on the charts in 1921.[1] The song was possibly written by Rose, but Jolson's popularity as a performer allowed him to claim composer co-credit.[1] Originally, only Rose and Jolson were credited, and DeSylva's name was added later.[1]

A popular jazz standard, the song has been recorded by many artists, including Cab Calloway (1934), Coleman Hawkins (1935) and Eddie Durham (1936). The Benny Goodman Quartet played the song in their famous 1938 Carnegie Hall concert.[1] The song was included in the biographical films The Jolson Story (1946) and The Benny Goodman Story (1956), and is also being noodled by Sam (Dooley Wilson) at the piano right before he plays As Time Goes By in the movie Casablanca (1942).[2]

The tune's opening melody resembles a part of Giacomo Puccini's aria E lucevan le stelle, from the opera Tosca, but in the major key.[1] Puccini's publishers sued the song's composers in 1921 for use of the melody, and were awarded $25,000 and all subsequent royalties of the song by the court.[1]


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

KenOC said:


> Urban myth. This was discussed earlier, I think.


There was a kerfuffle, and perhaps the police were called, though it seems more than doubtful, as reported, that the police confiscated the parts...

I wouldn't be surprised, though, if in 1940 someone was more than upset about an expat Russian arranging "Their National Anthem," or that a conservative Bostonian just may have called the police about it.

Who knows? Maybe a disgruntled composer or arranger narced out that one


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

In case it hasn't been discussed: The constabulary suggested that Stravinsky remove his arrangement of the Star Spangled Banner from a program in 1944, there being a state law against "tampering" with it (which Stravinsky had indeed done). So he withdrew it and that was that.

The famous "mug shot" was taken in 1940 and was evidently for a visa application. Stravinsky was a resident alien up to 1945, and such photos of non-citizens were the responsibility of the police in those days, to establish authenticity.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

Novelette said:


> Well, Brahms decidedly did _not_ murder cats.
> 
> What an absurd rumor... Whether Wagner's or not, it's just silly.


Well, if it has not been proven definitively, I'll run with it. "Brahms, the cat-killer, smuggler: armed and dangerous."


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

Pianist Joyce Hatto ~ a scandal of plagiarizing extant recordings and issuing them as her own performances done in collaboration with her husband, a peculiar and pathetic history.
(The numerous "expert" critics who did not recognize a performance by another famed pianist and who did not suspect something made more than fools of themselves, which we always seem to find somehow satisfying 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joyce_Hatto


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

There's a fun movie about this: Loving Miss Hatto (2012).

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt2220204/?ref_=sr_3


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## hello (Apr 5, 2013)

PetrB said:


> The youth was a minor, seventeen. Legal majority used to be 21, eighteen now (Currently varies in some U.S. states.) That would've been enough, though in the 1930's, it might not have been if that youth had been a young woman.


Oh, well that makes more sense. Fair enough.


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

KenOC said:


> Technically speaking, Gesualdo was not a criminal because (it seems) a murder of that type committed by a nobleman of his rank was not a crime at that place and time.


Not even technical. The law allowed for a kind of temporary insanity (for men of that rank) if you found your spouse in bed with another. American law in some states allowed the same in the earlier part of the 20th century, perhaps still requiring a verdict of 'involuntary manslaughter' and allowing the perpetrator to walk free.

The banishment Gesualdo was subject to was perhaps like a punishment the equivalent of involuntary manslaughter, but may have also been a consequence required of the law in his time and place -- as much to protect the perpetrator from the revenge or a vendetta coming from the victim's family.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

PetrB said:


> Not even technical. The law allowed for a kind of temporary insanity (for men of that rank) if you found your spouse in bed with another. American law in some states allowed the same in the earlier part of the 20th century, perhaps still requiring a verdict of 'involuntary manslaughter' and allowing the perpetrator to walk free.


I seem to remember (could be wrong) that in Texas, such an act is still a "justifiable homicide." Perhaps a Texan can clarify!


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## ahammel (Oct 10, 2012)

KenOC said:


> I seem to remember (could be wrong) that in Texas, such an act is still a "justifiable homicide." Perhaps a Texan can clarify!


Smells of urban legend to me. Texas isn't really known for dealing with murders lightly


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Found this, not an authoritative source: "It was the law in Texas until 1972 that a man who found his wife in bed with another man was justified in killing the wife and the other man. Wives did not enjoy the same privilege. The law was changed in 1972 to eliminate the justification. Nevertheless, under common law a killing committed "in the heat of passion" may not have the element of malice aforethought necessary to be [first-degree] murder. Such killings are generally prosecuted as manslaughter."


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

Just an interjection:

What about: 
the criminally bad composer
the criminally pedant composer
the criminally banal composer
the criminally shallow composer

etc.

(Not that I wish to appear to be advocating an OP based on negativity


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## ahammel (Oct 10, 2012)

PetrB said:


> Just an interjection:
> 
> What about:
> the criminally bad composer
> ...


I don't think we need four threads about Copland.

(zing!)


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## EddieRUKiddingVarese (Jan 8, 2013)

Burroughs said:


> Which composers committed crimes? Obviously Gesualdo was a murder, but do you know of any other criminal composers?


Think it was more the one murder................ murders plural would be more accurate or symphony of murders maybe!


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## ahammel (Oct 10, 2012)

EddieRUKiddingVarese said:


> Think it was more the one murder................ murders plural would be more accurate or symphony of murders maybe!


Two confirmed, a further one rumored, about a dozen if you believe the Herzog documentary (which you shouldn't).


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## EddieRUKiddingVarese (Jan 8, 2013)

Ah Criminally insane composers - my favourite kind! :devil:


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

ahammel said:


> Two confirmed, a further one rumored, about a dozen if you believe the Herzog documentary (which you shouldn't).


I really enjoy Werner's documentaries. But believe them? I hope not! BTW Herzog plays a bad guy -- a really really bad guy -- in the current movie Jack Reacher. Not a bad flick, and worth seeing just for old Werner anyway.

It was reported in movie circles as a fact for many years that Herzog, who had run out of money, forced Klaus Kinski to act at gunpoint. This was in Fitzcarraldo, I think. There were other such stories too. Turns out that Herzog and Kinski sat around evenings making up these stories for public consumption. So yes, movie watcher, beware!


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## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

Johann Rosenmuller had a bright career until 1656, when he was arrested for pederasty. He managed to escape from prison and make a name for himself in Venice.


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## ahammel (Oct 10, 2012)

KenOC said:


> I really enjoy Werner's documentaries. But believe them? I hope not!


Apparently Gesualdo's "wife" was played by a pretty famous Italian actress and singer. I imagine that made for a bizarre cinematic experience if you're Italian.

I should mention that the title of this documentary is _Death for Five Voices_. It's available on YouTube and is highly recommended.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Not a composer, but Lorenzo Da Ponte, Mozart's librettist, had to flee continental Europe for London for various reasons including a bankruptcy (then a crime). In London he went bankrupt again and fled further to the United States. After privately teaching Italian, he gained citizenship and founded the country's first opera house. Of course he went bankrupt yet again, but his opera house was the predecessor of the New York Academy of Music and of the New York Metropolitan Opera.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

Wasn't Boulez questioned by the police after an opera house burnt down for inciting people to do the same?

If John Cage was ever arrested, I'm sure he used his right to remain silent. :lol:


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## hello (Apr 5, 2013)

KenOC said:


> Not a composer, but Lorenzo Da Ponte, Mozart's librettist, had to flee continental Europe for London for various reasons including a bankruptcy (then a crime). In London he went bankrupt again and fled further to the United States. After privately teaching Italian, he gained citizenship and founded the country's first opera house. Of course he went bankrupt yet again, but his opera house was the predecessor of the New York Academy of Music and of the New York Metropolitan Opera.


Now that's a man who was bad with money.


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

ahammel said:


> I don't think we need four threads about Copland.
> 
> (zing!)


_

Wouch! _

Nor four threads each on Elgar, Bruckner, Medtner, Pierne, ...
uh..... _uh oh, CIRCLE THE WAGONS!_


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

EddieRUKiddingVarese said:


> Think it was more the one murder................ murders plural would be more accurate or symphony of murders maybe!


Yes, Wife + paramour does = two


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## brianvds (May 1, 2013)

Burroughs said:


> On April 15, 1940, Stravinsky's unconventional major seventh chord in his arrangement of the Star-Spangled Banner led to his arrest by the Boston police for violating a federal law that prohibited the reharmonization of the National anthem.


Urban legend. The arrangement was never performed because it was explained to him that it would be illegal.


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

KenOC said:


> Found this, not an authoritative source: "It was the law in Texas until 1972 that a man who found his wife in bed with another man was justified in killing the wife and the other man. Wives did not enjoy the same privilege. The law was changed in 1972 to eliminate the justification. Nevertheless, under common law a killing committed "in the heat of passion" may not have the element of malice aforethought necessary to be [first-degree] murder. Such killings are generally prosecuted as manslaughter."


Gotta love American egalitarianism: you no longer need to be a lord to get the same consideration, just a wife-owner, uh, I mean, a husband.


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## Pyotr (Feb 26, 2013)

jtbell said:


> Henry Cowell was convicted on a "morals" (homosexuality) charge in 1936 and spent four years in San Quentin before being paroled.


Tchaikovsky had the same situation. The punishment, of which, was an all-expenses-paid trip to Siberia. He thought he could put any rumors regarding his sexual proclivity to rest by marrying a fan, Antonina Ivanovna Miliukova, whom, he believed, understood the arrangement to be platonic. Turns out there was a misunderstanding on her part about that and they separated after six weeks. The marriage was never consummated. Eventually, she produced three children by (allegedly) three different fathers but due to strict regulations regarding divorce in Imperial Russia, the two remained legally married until Tchaikovsky's death.


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## ahammel (Oct 10, 2012)

millionrainbows said:


> Wasn't Boulez questioned by the police after an opera house burnt down for inciting people to do the same?
> 
> If John Cage was ever arrested, I'm sure he used his right to remain silent. :lol:


He wasn't questioned, but his passport was temporarily confiscated.

He had nothing to do with it, obviously, but if he had he would surely be the world's oldest terrorist. He was 75 at the time.


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## brianvds (May 1, 2013)

Pyotr said:


> Tchaikovsky had the same situation. The punishment, of which, was an all-expenses-paid trip to Siberia. He thought he could put any rumors regarding his sexual proclivity to rest by marrying a fan, Antonina Ivanovna Miliukova, whom, he believed, understood the arrangement to be platonic. Turns out there was a misunderstanding on her part about that and they separated after six weeks. The marriage was never consummated. Eventually, she produced three children by (allegedly) three different fathers but due to strict regulations regarding divorce in Imperial Russia, the two remained legally married until Tchaikovsky's death.


There have been persistent rumours that Tchaikovsky did not die of cholera but committed suicide by arsenic. Or if it was cholera, that he deliberately contracted it. The reason is claimed to be that his homosexuality was on the verge of becoming public knowledge, and a sort of "court of honour" of old friends and acquaintances "sentenced" him to commit suicide or to have his life ruined.

In a recent biography of him that I got from the library, this theory is quite seriously discussed. Unfortunately I can't remember the name of the author now. I don't know how seriously one should take it.

But at least in terms of today's law, Tchaikovsky was a serial sex offender; many of his liaisons were with boys that we would today consider "underaged." According to the biography I mention above, the inspiration for his Romeo and Juliet overture was not Shakespeare's play, but a teenaged boy he was hopelessly infatuated with at the time. And during his many journeys he apparently frequently enjoyed the favours of teenaged rentboys.

Lucky for us there wasn't as much paranoia about "child molesters" in those days as there is now, or he might well have been arrested and destroyed before he could write anything of much importance...


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

There's a theory on Tchaikovsky's death that it was a suicide, ordered by a "court of honor" assembled in St. Petersburg. The court's proceedings were based on an accusation by Duke Stenbok-Fermor, who was disturbed by Tchaikovsky's attentions to his young nephew. Given other reports about Tchaikovsky's nocturnal activities in Italy, the theory might well be credible. No proof!

Added: I see this is raised above. The theory's main proponent is Russian musicologist Alexandra Orlova. See:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_...ovsky#Suicide_ordered_by_.22court_of_honor.22


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

brianvds said:


> Lucky for us there wasn't as much paranoia about "child molesters" in those days as there is now, or he might well have been arrested and destroyed before he could write anything of much importance...


When Saint-Saens was accused of being homosexual, he drew himself up to full height and responded, "I am not a homosexual, but a pederast." Well, in French of course.


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## brianvds (May 1, 2013)

KenOC said:


> When Saint-Saens was accused of being homosexual, he drew himself up to full height and responded, "I am not a homosexual, but a pederast." Well, in French of course.


Yes, I have heard of that. It is not entirely clear to me whether he was just joking, or being deliberately controversial, or whether perhaps pederasty was more socially acceptable in 19th century France than adult homosexuality (as was the case in Ancient Greece and Rome, home of the original bunch of philosopher-pederasts 

One must be careful about jumping to conclusion based on limited evidence. I once heard it claimed quite seriously that Satie was a pederast, based on the "evidence" that at some party, he told everyone who asked his profession that he was a "gymnopedist." And of course he composed those charming little Gymnopedies.

Now, in Ancient Sparta a gymnopedia was a festival at which boys would dance in the nude. But did Satie even know this, and even if he did, what of it? He was generally weird, and liked saying weird things and playing weird tricks, but I'm sure Suzanne Valadon could attest to his perfectly mundane sexual predilections.


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## SuperTonic (Jun 3, 2010)

Any examples of composers who had their career ruined by criminal charges?

One I can think of was the Soviet composer Mikhail Nosyrev. Nosyrev was a young, up-an-coming composer in the 1940's, until his diary was discovered by authorities in which he wrote about his dislike of the Soviet regime (he was a devoutly religious person and wished to be able to worship freely). On the evidence of that diary alone, he was convicted of treason and sentenced to death by firing squad. A month after his conviction his sentence was commuted to a 10 year sentence which he served at the Vorkuta Gulag. After his sentence was completed he was only able to hold positions as conductor in out of the way places in the Soviet Union. He was eventually admitted into the Union of Composers in 1968 upon Shostakovich's recommendation, but he died in relative obscurity in 1981. He was completely rehabilitated from the charges of treason posthumously by the Supreme Court of the USSR in 1988.


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## Norse (May 10, 2010)

Satie was jailed following the premier of the ballet Parade, a collaboration with Cocteau, Picasso and Diaghilev. I'll just quote wikipedia:

"The premiere of the ballet resulted in a number of scandals, including a classical music riot. According to the painter Gabriel Fournier, one of the most memorable scandals was an altercation between Cocteau, Satie, and music critic Jean Poueigh, who gave Parade an unfavorable review. Satie had written a postcard to the critic which read, "Monsieur et cher ami - vous êtes un cul, un cul sans musique! Signé Erik Satie" ("Sir and dear friend - you are an ****, an **** without music! Signed, Erik Satie."). The critic sued Satie, and at the trial Cocteau was arrested and beaten by police for repeatedly yelling "****" in the courtroom. Satie was given a sentence of eight days in jail."


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

When he had his Cucamonga studio, *Frank Zappa* was arrested and convicted for providing a "sex tape" to an undercover cop.


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## waldvogel (Jul 10, 2011)

Conductor and composer Eugene Goossens had a considerable collection of porn, which was much harder to acquire back in the 1940's and 1950's, and quite illegal to possess back then. He had been appointed chief conductor of the Sydney Symphony Orchestra. Australian police were informed of his kinky interests, and his luggage was searched upon arrival in Sydney. Goossens wanted to keep the issue quiet, pleaded guilty and was fined 100 pounds for the offence, but the scandal also cost him his job.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

waldvogel said:


> Conductor and composer Eugene Goossens had a considerable collection of porn, which was much harder to acquire back in the 1940's and 1950's, and quite illegal to possess back then. He had been appointed chief conductor of the Sydney Symphony Orchestra. Australian police were informed of his kinky interests, and his luggage was searched upon arrival in Sydney. Goossens wanted to keep the issue quiet, pleaded guilty and was fined 100 pounds for the offence, but the scandal also cost him his job.


Fantastic! I'm going to seek out all the Eugene Goossens recordings I can!


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## EddieRUKiddingVarese (Jan 8, 2013)

millionrainbows said:


> Fantastic! I'm going to seek out all the Eugene Goossens recordings I can!


Me too, what a guy!


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

EddieRUKiddingVarese said:


> Me too, what a guy!


Yeah, he was really in touch with his dark side! (unlike Brahms) This creates good artistic results!


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## EddieRUKiddingVarese (Jan 8, 2013)

millionrainbows said:


> Yeah, he was really in touch with his dark side! (unlike Brahms) This creates good artistic results!


I start my vinyl hunt as soon as possible then.......


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## Kieran (Aug 24, 2010)

EddieRUKiddingVarese said:


> I start my vinyl hunt as soon as possible then.......


His vinyl was sold in a brown paper bag. Though not all of them, because I knew some had a cover that said _Jupiter symphony_ on the outside, but his dark side deviant music was within... :devil:


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## Orfeo (Nov 14, 2013)

There was a scandal involving Eugene Goossens' affair with Rosaleen Norton, an artist and occultist. When he revisited Australia in 1956, the Sidney police found what were then considered pornographic materials (the police already had the letters they sent to each other). He was charged with pornography ("scandalous conduct"), and although he was never arrested and imprisoned (he paid a fine instead), his career was ruined.

Also, there was an arrest warrant (or more) on Wagner, who had severe debt problems.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Vaughan Williams was said to practice animal husbandry, but unlike Tom Lehrer, they never caught him at it.


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## joen_cph (Jan 17, 2010)

dholling said:


> There was a scandal involving Eugene Goossens' affair with Rosaleen Norton, an artist and occultist. When he revisited Australia in 1956, the Sidney police found what were then considered pornographic (the police already had the letters they sent to each other). He was charged with pornography ("scandalous conduct"), and although he was never arrested and imprisoned (he paid a fine instead), his career was ruined.


Had heard fragments of the story, but didn´t know the specifics, thank you. That art of hers is by the way truly awful http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rosaleen_Norton


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## Orfeo (Nov 14, 2013)

joen_cph said:


> Had heard fragments of the story, but didn´t know the specifics, thank you. That art of hers is by the way truly awful http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rosaleen_Norton


Definitely grotesque and quite out there (radical). Avant-gardish maybe.


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## joen_cph (Jan 17, 2010)

dholling said:


> Definitely grotesque and quite out there (radical). Avant-gardish maybe.


Or "oppositional" / "esoteric", I´d say


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## Orfeo (Nov 14, 2013)

joen_cph said:


> Or "oppositional" / "esoteric", I´d say


Or that. No argument here.


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## Couac Addict (Oct 16, 2013)

Novelette said:


> Well, Brahms decidedly did _not_ murder cats.


No, that was Andrew Lloyd Webber.


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## Copperears (Nov 10, 2013)

brianvds said:


> Beethoven was also once arrested as a tramp. In the prison cell he gave the policeman on duty a piece of his mind.
> 
> "I am BEETHOVEN!!!"
> 
> ...


Was that the origin of the Waldstein Sonata? :B


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## Orfeo (Nov 14, 2013)

KenOC said:


> Not a composer, but Lorenzo Da Ponte, Mozart's librettist, had to flee continental Europe for London for various reasons including a bankruptcy (then a crime). In London he went bankrupt again and fled further to the United States. After privately teaching Italian, he gained citizenship and founded the country's first opera house. Of course he went bankrupt yet again, but his opera house was the predecessor of the New York Academy of Music and of the New York Metropolitan Opera.


In Venice, Da Ponte was charged with "public concubinage" and "abduction of a respectable woman" (he had a mistress who bore him two children). I mean, wow!! And yet he still managed to leave quite a legacy for himself; Today's MET Opera is still one of the most premiere opera houses in the world. The guy made questionable choices, but he was quite a visionary. ut:


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## ahammel (Oct 10, 2012)

dholling said:


> In Venice, Da Ponte was charged with "public concubinage" and "abduction of a respectable woman" (he had a mistress who bore him two children). I mean, wow!! And yet he still managed to leave quite a legacy for himself


Sounds like it.

I take it that there was no actual abduction involved?


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## Orfeo (Nov 14, 2013)

ahammel said:


> Sounds like it.
> 
> I take it that there was no actual abduction involved?


From what I could tell.


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