# Essential Schoenberg Recordings



## flamencosketches

I'm curious what everyone thinks are essential recordings of Arnold Schoenberg's music. Obviously, there are a lot of them; he was a major composer in his times. What are some good recordings, and who are some notable interpreters?

I haven't heard many. Personally, I'm a fan of all of Pierre Boulez's recordings (many with the BBC Symphony as well as his Ensemble Intercontemporain) of Schoenberg's orchestral works. I like Seiji Ozawa's recording with the Boston Symphony of Gurre-Lieder. I love Maurizio Pollini's recordings of his piano music; he is the best interpreter of Schoenberg's piano music that I've heard. Finally, I enjoyed Hilary Hahn's recording of the violin concerto with Salonen and the Swedish Radio Symphony. 

I would love to hear any other opinions. I am just now getting into Schoenberg's music and there are many recordings to choose from.


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## Manxfeeder

Any list like this is subjective, so speaking personally, I like von Karajan's Schoenberg. Sure, he cheated on the Variations by reseating orchestra members between variations, but it sounds good, to me at least.

Also personally, the Hollywood String Quartet's Verklarte Nacht needs to be mentioned, having the distinction of Schoenberg's personal approval, rewarded with, I believe, glasses of scotch. 

And I agree with you on Pollini. 

I think Uchida's recording of the piano concerto is something everyone should hear.


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## KenOC

My list of essential Schoenberg recordings is short. Very short.


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## 89Koechel

OK, Schoenberg - not exactly a favorite topic of many listeners, we can be sure. BUT, you've bravely trod-into a musical territory that MANY, esp. nowadays, might fear to tread. Yes, you can be SURE that many (if not all) of the late Boulez recordings are VERY fine, and they cover most of the "territory", so to speak. Also, Ozawa was a master of Gurre-Lieder! … Well, there is, on Amazon, an MP3 download of one of the sections of Columbia Records' old (2 LPs, at the time) series, of Schoenberg. It's labeled, simply … "The Music of Arnold Schoenberg - Craft" … and contains some of his transcriptions of Bach compositions (plus a Schubert), plus an exceptional recording (with Robert Craft, and the Chicago SO, at it's peak) of an orchestration of Brahms' Piano Quartet, Op. 25. … Well, you might be interested-in "Moses und Aron", the quartets, "Jakobsleiter"/(Jacob's Ladder), Erwartung, A Survivor from Warsaw, and, by golly …. the "Five Pieces for Orchestra", etc.


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## flamencosketches

Thanks for the replies so far. @Manxfeeder, I haven't heard Karajan's Schoenberg. I really like Karajan's Webern, but I'm not sure how well that would translate to the works of his teacher. I'll have to check it out. What do you mean by reseating orchestra members? Did he move players into different positions to smooth out the changes orchestral balance throughout the different movements? 

I have heard Uchida on the concerto with Boulez/Cleveland. It's a really good recording. 

Going to look into that Hollywood Quartet recording, must be pretty old then? In mono?

@89Koechel, I'm really not familiar with Robert Craft, but I have heard his name associated with Schoenberg and the other Second Vienna School composers. May have to look into him. Otherwise, I'm pretty satisfied with Boulez in Schoenberg, but kind of wondering what else is out there.

Glad to see we agree on Ozawa's great Gurre-Lieder.


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## 89Koechel

flamenco - Yes, Robert Craft is probably a somewhat-forgotten name, by now; he was one of Stravinsky's "champions" in certain days of the previous century. Boulez, of course, is a great SOURCE of Schoenberg recordings/performances … and he and others (for Columbia) produced a 4-LP set of the complete works of Anton von Webern, in the past. As for Schoenberg's piano music, or the Violin Concerto, or the Piano Concerto, or many others … even the Quartets (and don't mind that the Hollywood Qt. comes-from an older generation of recordings - am sure that their interpretations are still, pretty-SOUND, even if in monaural sound), you can find many sources, if you're willing to look. I'd also, again, mention the "Five Pieces for Orchestra" as one of the best introductions to Schoenberg's ways-and-means, so to speak. Best of luck!


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## flamencosketches

I have Boulez's complete Webern on CD (the original, which is probably the one you are referring to - he redid it all about 15-20 years ago with DG). 

I actually listened to Boulez's account of the 5 pieces earlier today. Amazing stuff. Some of it sounds borderline impressionistic.


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## KenOC

Robert Craft was the inseparable companion of Stravinsky in his old age. For concerts where Stravinsky would conduct his own works, Craft would often warm up the orchestra and lead rehearsals.

There are those who say that some of Stravinsky's late performances on Columbia Records (now Sony) were actually conducted by Craft.


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## Manxfeeder

flamencosketches said:


> Thanks for the replies so far. @Manxfeeder, I haven't heard Karajan's Schoenberg. I really like Karajan's Webern, but I'm not sure how well that would translate to the works of his teacher. I'll have to check it out. What do you mean by reseating orchestra members? Did he move players into different positions to smooth out the changes orchestral balance throughout the different movements?
> 
> Going to look into that Hollywood Quartet recording, must be pretty old then? In mono?


Yes, in the Variations, Karajan reseated the orchestra during different variations to emphasize the piece's orchestral balance. I understand his recordings of the Second Viennese School were best sellers, which is quite an accomplishment.

And yes, the Hollywood Quartet recording is from 1950 in mono, but that isn't much of an issue; it has a full sound. Schoenberg thought enough about the recording that he wrote the liner notes, which he rarely if ever did.

You might also consider Hilary Hahn's recording of the violin concerto. She seems to have brushed the dust off this one and got people listening to it again.


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## 89Koechel

Manx - Yes, Ms. Hahn is certainly one to take CHANCES, esp. re. the Schoenberg Concerto. If anyone can bring listeners TOWARDS it, she'd be the one! Well, on the other hand, one of the comments (on YouTube, and her version, w/Salonen) was "... just glad it ended.". … Yep, it ain't Tchaikovsky or Glazounov, in terms of TUNEFULNESS, but maybe Hahn's version will attract a wider audience, after all.


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## 89Koechel

KenOC - Good points, 'bout Robt. Craft … I should've mentioned his close collaboration with Igor S, before. The two worked, almost, like Duke Ellington and Billy Strayhorn (in jazz), but in a slightly-different way. … Robt. Craft wrote some significant books, also … "Stravinsky; Chronicle of a Friendship", "Down a Path of Wonder", etc.


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## flamencosketches

Manxfeeder said:


> Yes, in the Variations, Karajan reseated the orchestra during different variations to emphasize the piece's orchestral balance. I understand his recordings of the Second Viennese School were best sellers, which is quite an accomplishment.
> 
> And yes, the Hollywood Quartet recording is from 1950 in mono, but that isn't much of an issue; it has a full sound. Schoenberg thought enough about the recording that he wrote the liner notes, which he rarely if ever did.
> 
> You might also consider Hilary Hahn's recording of the violin concerto. She seems to have brushed the dust off this one and got people listening to it again.


I have heard Hahn's performance of the VC. Phenomenal. The album it's on also features Sibelius' VC which is equally good if in a totally different style. She is a killer violinist. That album really made me a fan of hers.

Pretty amazing that Schoenberg himself wrote the liner notes. That must have been an honor.



> "... just glad it ended."


Anyone who listens to 30 minutes of music they dislike while eagerly awaiting the ending of has some different priorities in life than myself... 

Re: Robert Craft, sounds like I need to hear some of his recordings of Stravinsky!


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## 89Koechel

flamenco - "just glad it ended" - Well, I should've added that the person mentioned that Ms. Hahn played "spectacularly". Also, maybe we should be realistic about the APPEAL of Schoenberg, to many listeners. In other words, I've known a NUMBER who are put-off by the cragginess, the twelve-tone system, and other aspects of The Viennese Three (you know who they are). Many listeners might still prefer easy melodies, easy listening … almost Muzak, so to speak. OK, as long as you and others are willing to investigate the TRUE nature of musical progressions, then things should be all right, I guess. What do you/others think?


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## Manxfeeder

89Koechel said:


> Many listeners might still prefer easy melodies, easy listening … almost Muzak, so to speak. OK, as long as you and others are willing to investigate the TRUE nature of musical progressions, then things should be all right, I guess. What do you/others think?


Yep. I just finished off Schoenberg's Variations, and now I'm listening to Grover Washington, Jr.'s, recording of Just the Two of Us. Sometimes I like steak and sometimes I just want chewing gum.


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## flamencosketches

89Koechel said:


> flamenco - "just glad it ended" - Well, I should've added that the person mentioned that Ms. Hahn played "spectacularly". Also, maybe we should be realistic about the APPEAL of Schoenberg, to many listeners. In other words, I've known a NUMBER who are put-off by the cragginess, the twelve-tone system, and other aspects of The Viennese Three (you know who they are). Many listeners might still prefer easy melodies, easy listening … almost Muzak, so to speak. OK, as long as you and others are willing to investigate the TRUE nature of musical progressions, then things should be all right, I guess. What do you/others think?


I'm cool with it so long as people aren't going out and actively trashing modern music... and many are. Not necessarily your commenter in question. And of course I understand not everyone is going to understand Schoenberg's music. I didn't at first, hell I'm just now starting to appreciate it, and I guess my musical background outside of classical music might have made me more receptive to it than others. But the quality of the music is there for anyone open minded enough to look for it. Quite rewarding. I suppose I'm not a good example though, as Webern and Berg were both love at first sight :lol: Schoenberg is taking a bit more effort.


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## 89Koechel

Manx - Sure, ol' Grover Wash., Jr. - why not? There were times when some of the GREAT jazzmen, such as Coleman Hawkins, would make recordings that were, kinda, easy listening, also. Well, we'll always have the solid evidence, of "Hawk", in his 1939 "Body and Soul" (often, rated as the GREATEST of all jazz solos), plus many others. Listening can be EASY, or middling, or even difficult, sometimes - eh?


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## 89Koechel

flamenco - " … not a good example .." - Oh, yes you are! Never doubt it, and anyone who can encompass any/all of The Viennese Three is just-FINE, in my book. In other words, it'd be difficult if one could find more than a handful, anywhere, who might even care 'bout these gentlemen, anymore … unless I'm mistaken.


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## Dirge

These have been my favorite Schoenberg works/recordings over the decades …

Chamber Symphony No. 1 (1906)
:: Orpheus Chamber Orchestra [DG '89]





_Pierrot lunaire_ (1912)
:: DeGaetani, Weisberg/Contemporary Chamber Ensemble [Nonesuch '70]





Variations (for orchestra) (1926/28)
:: Scherchen/BRSO [Tahra, live '53]
http://www.classicalm.com/en/compos...enberg---Variations-for-Orchestra---Scherchen (CD 2, track 10)
_For a less concentrated and intense but more colorful and "beautiful" alternative, Mehta/LAPO [Decca '68] is worth checking out._

_Moses und Aron_ (1930/32)
:: Kegel/ORF Leipzig [Berlin Classics '76]
http://www.classicalm.com/en/compos...nberg---Moses-und-Aron-Kegel-Haseleu-Goldberg

String Trio (1946)
:: Santa Fe Chamber Music Festival [Nonesuch LP '81]




 (Kremer, Hagen & Hagen)
_The freakishly good Nonesuch recording (which was coupled on LP with my favorite recording of _Verklärte Nacht_) has never been reissued digitally so far as I know.
_
_A Survivor from Warsaw_ (1947)
:: Reich, Boulez/BBC SO & Chorus [CBS/Sony '76]


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## Heliogabo

For the string quartets, Lasalle quartet is an essential recording. 
You might find better recorded and played versions, if you want, but Lasalle approach is simply essential and a classic one.


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## Mandryka

flamencosketches said:


> I'm curious what everyone thinks are essential recordings of Arnold Schoenberg's music. Obviously, there are a lot of them; he was a major composer in his times. What are some good recordings, and who are some notable interpreters?
> 
> I haven't heard many. Personally, I'm a fan of all of Pierre Boulez's recordings (many with the BBC Symphony as well as his Ensemble Intercontemporain) of Schoenberg's orchestral works. I like Seiji Ozawa's recording with the Boston Symphony of Gurre-Lieder. I love Maurizio Pollini's recordings of his piano music; he is the best interpreter of Schoenberg's piano music that I've heard. Finally, I enjoyed Hilary Hahn's recording of the violin concerto with Salonen and the Swedish Radio Symphony.
> 
> I would love to hear any other opinions. I am just now getting into Schoenberg's music and there are many recordings to choose from.


Nothing by Pollini for me, at least not on the DG studio recording. There are many better pianists like Marie Françoise Bucquet, Hardy Ritter, Alexei Lubimov Madelena Soveral, Paul Jacobs.

Glen Gould's studio recording of the piano suite
Diotima Quartet's quartets

This CD









The Koldofsky Trio recording of the op 45 trio possibly

Hans Rosbaud's Moses und Aaron, but given you like Solti so much for some unknown reason, maybe try his.

Trio Zimmerman's recording of op 45

The Leipzig Quartet's recordings of the quartets.

Hans Rosbaud's op 31 variations for orchestra.

Bethany Beardsley's Pierrot, though the one by Sinopoli we talked about is very interesting indeed.

Robert Craft's first recording of the Brahms transcription.


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## Borborygmi

No one has mentioned the wonderful Erwartung with Jessye Norman and Levine, originally on Philips


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## jegreenwood

flamencosketches said:


> I'm curious what everyone thinks are essential recordings of Arnold Schoenberg's music. Obviously, there are a lot of them; he was a major composer in his times. What are some good recordings, and who are some notable interpreters?
> 
> I haven't heard many. Personally, I'm a fan of all of Pierre Boulez's recordings (many with the BBC Symphony as well as his Ensemble Intercontemporain) of Schoenberg's orchestral works. I like Seiji Ozawa's recording with the Boston Symphony of Gurre-Lieder. I love Maurizio Pollini's recordings of his piano music; he is the best interpreter of Schoenberg's piano music that I've heard. Finally, I enjoyed Hilary Hahn's recording of the violin concerto with Salonen and the Swedish Radio Symphony.
> 
> I would love to hear any other opinions. I am just now getting into Schoenberg's music and there are many recordings to choose from.


Pollini was my ticket in. Although I don't visit that often.


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## flamencosketches

Mandryka said:


> Nothing by Pollini for me, at least not on the DG studio recording. There are many better pianists like Hans Rosbaud's Moses und Aaron, but given you like Solti so much for some unknown reason, maybe try his.


What's that supposed to mean :lol: I know he is considered by some to have a brash sensibility. But I think he's a great conductor. I appreciate his directness.

Anyway, I didn't know Solti recorded Moses und Aron, so I will have to check that out indeed 

As for his piano music, I have heard Pollini, Gould, and Uchida. I love the first two, and I like Mitsuko in the concerto but not as much in the solo piano music.

So you don't think Pollini is good, huh? We're both entitled to our opinions of course but I'm curious why. I think he has a nice sensitivity with this music. I definitely like his Schoenberg more than his Chopin. He comes off a lot more expressive (expressionistic?). Think we can agree Glenn Gould is masterful in Schoenberg's music (love his Berg sonata too). It was Gould who got me into classical music in the first place and lately I'm revisiting his playing, though in different repertoire from what I'm familiar with.

Never heard of those musicians on that Dial masters album. I'll look into it.

Good stuff. Thanks for participating in my thread, as always you know what's up


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## flamencosketches

Borborygmi said:


> No one has mentioned the wonderful Erwartung with Jessye Norman and Levine, originally on Philips


I love Ms. Norman, but I have a strong aversion to Levine... I have no doubt his conducting is good in this kind of repertoire though.

Erwartung is a strange and intense work. Of all of his music I've heard, that one is the hardest to get through.

For every piece of Schoenberg that I start to "get", there are a dozen that are still a total enigma to me. He is a fascinating artist. And good recordings are the absolute key.


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## Josquin13

Here are 5 Schoenberg works that I would consider essential--especially the first three listed:

1 & 2. Verklarte Nacht/Streichtrio, or Transfigured Night/String Trio--Lasalle Quartet, with violist Donald McInnes:





Otherwise, my favorite Schoenberg music are the works that he composed for the human voice, & especially the female voice:

3. Gurre-lieder--Riccardo Chailly's Berlin RSO set is my benchmark digital era recording. Chailly is exceptional in this repertory, and his 2 for 1 discount reissue makes a good place to start: https://www.amazon.com/Schoenberg-G...oenberg&qid=1557458667&s=music&sr=1-2-catcorr










However, among analogue era recordings, I'm quite partial to Rafael Kubelik's magical DG recording with the Bavarian RSO, with soprano Inge Borkh:





https://www.amazon.com/Schoenberg-G...elik+schoenberg&qid=1557458708&s=music&sr=1-5

4. Pierrot Lunaire, Op. 21--Christine Schäfer (with Boulez), Lucy Shelton (without a conductor), Jane Manning (with Rattle), and Jan DeGaetani (with Weisberg) are all excellent choices:

Schäfer: 



Shelton: 



Manning: 



DeGaetani: 




5. Book of the Hanging Gardens, Op. 15 (lieder cycle): I'm partial to Julia Kaufmann (with pianist Irwin Gage), but Jan DeGaetani (with pianist Gilbert Kalish), and Helen Vanni (with pianist Glenn Gould) are excellent, too--it's a close call:

Kauffmann: 



DeGaetani: 



Vanni: 




(This is an excellent performance too, but I'm not sure who the performers are, as they're not listed on YT: 



)

In addition, I have fond memories of soprano Arleen Auger singing Schoenberg lieder in concert (with the late Irwin Gage accompanying her at the piano), & fortunately, there's a BBC record of one of her concerts, with pianist Dalton Baldwin (which I wouldn't want to be without, as Auger was one of my favorite sopranos, and her Schoenberg was beautiful): https://www.allmusic.com/album/arle...nn-schubert-schoenberg-r-strauss-mw0001868140

I'd also recommend a recording of Herzgewächse, Op. 20, sung by soprano Lucy Shelton, with the Da Capo Chamber Players, conducted by Oliver Knussen (btw, any performance conducted Knussen in the modern or contemporary repertory is usually top notch):

"Herzgewächse, Op. 20: 



https://www.amazon.com/Schoenberg-L...oenberg&qid=1557507842&s=music&sr=1-1-catcorr

Further listening:

6. Pelleas und Melisande, Op. 5: I'm not sure who to recommend here: Herbert von Karajan's BPO recording is well regarded, as is David Zinman's old Philips recording, along with Pierre Boulez, Robert Craft on Naxos, and Jukka-Pekka Saraste on Profil: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B008MZSK84/ref=dm_rogue_digital. It's hard to say which is 'the best'.

https://www.prestomusic.com/classic...oenberg-verklarte-nacht-pelleas-und-melisande

7. Piano Concerto: Early in his career, Alfred Brendel made an excellent recording of Schoenberg's PC, with Rafael Kubelik, on DG: 



. (I've not heard Uchida's recording with Boulez.)

8. Solo Piano Music: In recent years, pianist Florent Boffard has recorded an excellent survey of Schoenberg's complete solo piano music: 



, as did Glenn Gould: 



 and 



. Paul Jacobs' old Nonesuch recording is worth hearing, too: 



. As for Maurizio Pollini, while I'd generally consider him to be at his best in the modern/contemporary repertory (versus the romantic repertory), his approach to Schoenberg is more intellectual, abstract, & colder than either Jacobs or Gould's, and may not be to all tastes: 



.
https://www.amazon.com/Berg-Violin-...r=C9CDA0AQD06TKXER05SQ&qid=1557458066&s=music

https://www.amazon.com/Schoenberg-W... nberg&qid=1557455968&s=music&sr=1-1-fkmrnull
https://www.amazon.com/Glenn-Gould-...uld+schoenberg&qid=1557455868&s=dmusic&sr=1-2
https://www.amazon.com/Maurizio-Pol...lini+schoenberg&qid=1557455994&s=music&sr=1-3

9. Phantasy for Violin and Piano, Op. 47:

Boston Symphony Chamber Players: 



Prazak Quartet: https://www.amazon.com/Schoenberg-S...phil ips&qid=1557457053&s=music&sr=1-1-fkmr0
Schoenberg Ensemble, on Philips: https://www.amazon.com/Arnold-Schoe...phil ips&qid=1557457053&s=music&sr=1-1-fkmr0
Menuhin & Gould: 




10. The Complete String Quartets 1-4 are worth exploring too. Interestingly, Schoenberg added a soprano to the mix in his second quartet, Op. 7 (which happens to be my favorite of the four): 



. Again, I'm not sure who to recommend here. I have and like the sets by the Asasello, Arditti, & Lasalle Quartets, and the Sequoia Quartet's LP was my introduction to this music, but I've not heard the well reviewed Quatour Diotima or Schoenberg Quartet:

Asasello Quartett: 




https://www.amazon.com/Insights-Str...enuine&qid=1557457630&s=music&sr=1-1-fkmrnull

Quatour Diotima: 




Schoenberg Quartet:https://www.amazon.com/Arnold-Schoe...ndos+schoenberg&qid=1557457568&s=music&sr=1-1

LaSalle Quartet: 



Arditti Quartet: 



Sequoia SQ: 



New Vienna String Quartet (Evelyn Lear, soprano): 




11. Schoenberg's uncompleted opera, Moses und Aron. The old Penquin Guide gave Sir Georg Solti's recording a rosette award. More recently, Boulez on DG is excellent, and has better sound. However, the most idiomatic performance is arguably Hans Rosbaud's 1957 recording on Sony, IMO, if you don't mind the inferior sound: https://search.aol.com/aol/search?s_chn=prt_bon&q=lasalle+quartet+schoenberg&s_it=comsearch

12. Violin Concerto: I agree with others that Hilary Hahn is excellent in the VC, as is Henryk Szeryng on his older DG account, and Pierre Amoyal with Boulez on Erato:

Hahn: 



Szeryng: Not on You Tube, but it comes coupled with Brendel's DG recording of the Piano Concerto (see above).
Amoyal: 




13. I've not heard all of the recordings in Pierre Boulez's Sony box set--comprised of his complete CBS Schoenberg recordings, but if offers a lot of music--at 11 CDs, for a low price (the lowest offer is presently $15.99): https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00AK3X3U6/ref=nav_timeline_asin?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1. However, I personally prefer Chailly and Kubelik in the Gurre-Lieder...

My 2 cents.


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## starthrower

Get the cheap Boulez box on Sony if you don't already have all the recordings. It's a fantastic deal! And the Boulez/Uchida piano disc. If you like quartets, the Asasello Quartett recording is very good. I also really like the EMI 2 disc set conducted by Simon Rattle, and Jeffrey Tate. If there's one work I don't like by Boulez it's the Five Pieces For Orchestra, so I listen to Rattle.

This is my favorite recording of Book Of Hanging Gardens. It's from an out of print Erato disc. Susanne Lange is a great mezo.


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## flamencosketches

Interesting, I'm not crazy about Boulez's 5 pieces either. Very murky. I will have to check out Rattle's. I'm not familiar with his conducting at all, though I understand he's quite famous.


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## Mandryka

flamencosketches said:


> What's that supposed to mean :lol: I know he is considered by some to have a brash sensibility. But I think he's a great conductor. I appreciate his directness.
> 
> Anyway, I didn't know Solti recorded Moses und Aron, so I will have to check that out indeed
> 
> As for his piano music, I have heard Pollini, Gould, and Uchida. I love the first two, and I like Mitsuko in the concerto but not as much in the solo piano music.
> 
> So you don't think Pollini is good, huh? We're both entitled to our opinions of course but I'm curious why. I think he has a nice sensitivity with this music. I definitely like his Schoenberg more than his Chopin. He comes off a lot more expressive (expressionistic?). Think we can agree Glenn Gould is masterful in Schoenberg's music (love his Berg sonata too). It was Gould who got me into classical music in the first place and lately I'm revisiting his playing, though in different repertoire from what I'm familiar with.
> 
> Never heard of those musicians on that Dial masters album. I'll look into it.
> 
> Good stuff. Thanks for participating in my thread, as always you know what's up


There's a live Pollini Schoenberg recital from Salzburg which I prefer to the DG but I don't find what he does expressive specially, and I think Schoenberg's music is all about expressiveness. On the whole I think it's worthwhile to look for the recordings where Schoenberg himself was in some way involved, I've found that rewarding. I heard Uchida play Schoenberg solo in concert and enjoyed it, refined and delicate music making, I haven't heard the recordings as far as I recall. Solti's Moses und Aaron has an outstanding Moses, but it does NOT have a sexy orgy.

I also saw Norman sing Ewartung, all I remember is that she was unbelievably fat and wearing a pair of curtains converted into a tent.


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## Manxfeeder

starthrower said:


> I also really like the EMI 2 disc set conducted by Simon Rattle, and Jeffrey Tate.


I like Rattle's set also. I like how he did Transfigured Night. I need to dig that one out; I haven't heard it in a while.


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## starthrower

Presto Classical practically gives away those Rattle sets during their annual box set sale. Maybe I'll pick up the Rattle 2nd Viennese set. I have the old Dorati Vienna CD which is where I first heard this music.


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## starthrower

flamencosketches said:


> Interesting, I'm not crazy about Boulez's 5 pieces either. Very murky. I will have to check out Rattle's. I'm not familiar with his conducting at all, though I understand he's quite famous.


People here turn their head when certain conductors are mentioned but I don't mind Rattle or Ozawa for some pieces. I really like his recording of Messiaen's Eclairs... And I don't mind Ozawa's Mahler.

It's weird because Boulez is known for his attention to detail but I know what you mean when you say murky. Some of his Ligeti sounds that way to me too. It may have something to do with that French legato phrasing thing when the music really needs some sharp, articulate emphasis to certain passages.


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## flamencosketches

Think I'm going to have to pull the trigger on this:









Been loving Gould's Schoenberg lately, and I have so little of it... great value, 4 CDs for 15 bucks. Despite already having most all of this music on other recordings...


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## flamencosketches

starthrower said:


> People here turn their head when certain conductors are mentioned but I don't mind Rattle or Ozawa for some pieces. I really like his recording of Messiaen's Eclairs... And I don't mind Ozawa's Mahler.
> 
> It's weird because Boulez is known for his attention to detail but I know what you mean when you say murky. Some of his Ligeti sounds that way to me too. It may have something to do with that French legato phrasing thing when the music really needs some sharp, articulate emphasis to certain passages.


You may be right. The pieces are quite densely orchestrated, and I can hardly make out any individual part at any given time during that recording. Strangely, I don't have this problem with any of Boulez's other Schoenberg (and his Webern for that matter is amazing - great clarity). I really like Ozawa. His Gurrelieder with Jessye Norman is great (dare I say an Essential Schoenberg recording), and his Berg Violin Concerto with Itzhak Perlman is my favorite of the few I've heard. If his low reputation is well deserved, it must be for a body of performances different from those I've heard.

I've also been enjoying Sinopoli/Dresden's Pierrot Lunaire recently, to which I thank Mandryka for putting me on. Indeed a beautiful recording of a strange, huge work.

To derail the thread a little bit, has anyone heard these recordings of Sinopoli and Dresden performing Webern? Looks like a steal for $8:

https://www.amazon.com/Webern-Sommerwind-Passacaglia-Anton/dp/B0036WL5LM


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## Mandryka

He’s get the Sinopoli Webern (and the Sinopoli Maderna too (Quadrivium.))


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## Mandryka

Given that you’re enjoying Pierrot Lunaire, it’s maybe not a bad idea to strike when the iron’s hot and explore Pli selon Pli and Le Marteau sans Maître.


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## flamencosketches

Mandryka said:


> Given that you're enjoying Pierrot Lunaire, it's maybe not a bad idea to strike when the iron's hot and explore Pli selon Pli and Le Marteau sans Maître.


Maybe not a bad idea. I've heard some of the latter before and thought it was pretty cool. I have also been enjoying Boulez's Répons lately. Really good stuff.


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## elgar's ghost

Schoenberg's choral music doesn't get mentioned as often as much of his other output but it contains some intriguing work.

The set below covers virtually all bases apart from the unfinished _Die Jakobsleiter_ oratorio which is on another of Sony's releases featuring Boulez. It also doesn't feature most of Schoenberg's numerous canons for unaccompanied choir but they are relatively minor and are mostly unavailable on disc as far as I'm aware.


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## CnC Bartok

Apologies, but I have a great deal of time for Georg Solti's Moses und Aaron (see? 13 letters!), whatever its shortcomings. It got me into what is a very powerful work, which I think is Schoenberg at his most personal, and in the final analysis, touching. I am sure there are better, more Schoenbergian recordings out there, but I don't want to knock Solti's efforts. I still prefer it above Boulez's two recordings, and Kluttig on Naxos. Gielen's old recording is immensely impressive....

....Speaking of whom, I haven't heard any of these CDs below, and Moses isn't in this box, but I'd predict this will become pretty essential, coming out next month. Probably unfair to pigeon hole a conductor,, but this should be Gielen in his element. Just passed away a couple of months ago, a conductor I have started to admire very greatly indeed, not least for his Mahler.


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## flamencosketches

I think it's hilarious that Schoenberg, who loved the number 12 so much he created a whole new mode of harmonic thought based on it, was so afraid of the number 13 that it literally killed him. He died on a Friday the 13th at age 76 (7 + 6 = 13), minutes before midnight after apparently spending the whole day completely terrified. Well, I have a twisted sense of humor, but maybe I'm not the only one who sees the irony here? 

I have been hearing much about this Gielen conductor. So he's something of a 12-tone music specialist as well as his famous Mahler interpretations? Maybe I will have to look into this upcoming box set. As for Moses und Aron, it looks like Solti is the one to get. I am tired of having hardly any choice but Boulez for this repertoire, though he is a great conductor (listening to his Le sacre du printemps as we speak, actually).


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## Mandryka

Get Rosbaud's Moses and Aaron, recently well remastered.

Gielen is very good. Like Rosbaud he probably gave up the opportunity to conduct a top league orchestra like the Berlin Philharmonic or the Chacago Philharmonic because he wanted to be free to play the music he loved. It shows.

Gielen also recorded Moses and Aaron. 

It is a fabulous opera in my opinion. I listened to it again for the first time in ages a couple of weeks ago. There's not much else which can compare with it in terms of quality, from the second half of the century, Birtwistle's Orpheus is a good one and so is Nono's Prometheo, but still, these are hard to really appreciate not least because in both cases the libretto isn't available easily. Anyway Prometheo isn't really an opera. 

Then there's Das Madchen mit den Schwefelholzern and Shadowtime, neither of which I know very well.

The C20 was really an exceptional time for opera, how strange this very bourgeois art form should have proved such a source of inspiration to composers who despised the bourgeoisie.


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## flamencosketches

Hmm, noted. I was leaning toward the Solti because I like very much the music I've heard from his recording (with Chicago, unsure if he has done any other). But you've given me more to consider. I have heard good things about the Rosbaud too, but I know almost nothing of him as a conductor. 

I have been loving Glenn Gould's complete piano works of Schoenberg, the recent Sony reissue. Haven't even made to the Lieder (last two CDs of the box) so I am excited to check all that out. He wrote so many of them.


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## flamencosketches

Has there ever been a Complete Works box set released for Schoenberg? If not, why? Lack of demand...?


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## CnC Bartok

No complete box as far as I am aware, but there are some very comprehensive surveys available. The most obvious ones are Boulez on CBS/Sony, cheap as chips, and debatably a reference set. He did a lot of DGG recordings too, but personally I prefer the earlier ones...

Furthermore, Naxos have been releasing a decent amount of Schoenberg "under the direction" of Robert Craft. It includes all the significant chamber music, as well as the orchestral/choral stuff, but it is incomplete, no Piano Concerto, no Jacob's Ladder, no Moses, just off the top of my head.

Sadly, neither of these echt-Schoenbergians can add more to their surveys. Nor can Michael Gielen; his box, I have on order.

Yes, "lack of demand" is probably the main reason for the lack of complete edition. And I doubt anyone is going to release *NOW! That's what I Call Second Viennese School* any time soon.


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## flamencosketches

:lol: damn it. A boy can dream.


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## 89Koechel

CnC Bartok & flamenco - Well, if it comes to "pretty-complete" boxed sets of Schoenberg, there WAS the endeavor on Columbia/CBS, from decades ago. One can parts of the series on Amazon, or maybe eBay, or other sources, and I still have one or two of the 2-LP issues. The performers were many & varied, and Columbia should often be congratulated for taking a CHANCE in releasing an extended series of recordings …. very-few of which would ever reach … um … "popular" status, let's say.


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## 89Koechel

Also, flamenco, a young man like yourself CAN dream, and thanks for "pulling the trigger" on the genius/nut - Glenn Gould - in his recordings. I can hardly remember whether the late, George Szell characterized him (Gould) as a genius or a nut, or both (haha), but Gould's was a UNIQUE talent - enthusiastic and learned, and maybe, sometimes … willful.


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## 89Koechel

Mandryka - Thanks for your May 11th post & recommendations …. esp. that ONE with the unknown and/or forgotten pianist - Edward Steuermann. Geez, decades-ago, I dubbed an old, monaural LP of Ed. S, in the opus 19 and opus 23. There was a publication - maybe the old High Fidelity magazine - that recommended Steuermann as "eloquent", and more, in these pieces. Fine, also, is the note of Craft in the Brahms' transcription (with the Chicago SO, at it's height), plus Bethany Beardsley, in Pierrot. Thanks again for your measure of comprehensiveness, in the elusive "area" of Schoenberg recordings.


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## flamencosketches

89Koechel said:


> Also, flamenco, a young man like yourself CAN dream, and thanks for "pulling the trigger" on the genius/nut - Glenn Gould - in his recordings. I can hardly remember whether the late, George Szell characterized him (Gould) as a genius or a nut, or both (haha), but Gould's was a UNIQUE talent - enthusiastic and learned, and maybe, sometimes … willful.


Agreed. As I have often said here, it was Glenn Gould and his unique, willful talent that got me into classical music to begin with. I'm more from a rock (and punk rock) and jazz background, so his style had a direct appeal that really caught my ears. By that same token, it was only a matter of time before I discovered Schoenberg and his fascinating music.

Anyway, besides Verklärte Nacht, the four quartets, and the string trio, does Schoenberg have much else in the way of chamber music? What of the chamber symphonies? I don't really know anything about them.


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## Mandryka

flamencosketches said:


> Agreed. As I have often said here, it was Glenn Gould and his unique, willful talent that got me into classical music to begin with. I'm more from a rock (and punk rock) and jazz background, so his style had a direct appeal that really caught my ears. By that same token, it was only a matter of time before I discovered Schoenberg and his fascinating music.
> 
> Anyway, besides Verklärte Nacht, the four quartets, and the string trio, does Schoenberg have much else in the way of chamber music?


Yes there are quite a few things but there's one which I'm particularly fond of, the op 24 serenade. I expect that there are some fine performances of the op 47 phantasy for piano and violin, I've never explored it.


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## flamencosketches

Mandryka said:


> Yes there are quite a few things but there's one which I'm particularly fond of, the op 24 serenade. I expect that there are some fine performances of the op 47 phantasy for piano and violin, I've never explored it.


I listened to Glenn Gould with Israel Baker perform the Phantasy in the morning. It was indeed good. I will have to look into the Serenade, I've heard bits of it before.


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## Guest

The only Schoenberg recordings I have are from Karajan - the Verklärte Nacht recording and the Webern Passacaglia album.


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## flamencosketches

I just bought this CD. Wanted to note that Craft's Five Pieces for Orchestra is the best I've heard, much better than Boulez/BBC. Also included are Schoenberg's transcription of a harpsichord concerto by GM Monn for solo Cello and orchestra, and then his orchestration of Brahms' piano quartet in G minor, neither of which I've heard yet.


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## Mandryka

flamencosketches said:


> View attachment 119420
> 
> 
> I just bought this CD. Wanted to note that Craft's Five Pieces for Orchestra is the best I've heard, much better than Boulez/BBC. Also included are Schoenberg's transcription of a harpsichord concerto by GM Monn for solo Cello and orchestra, and then his orchestration of Brahms' piano quartet in G minor, neither of which I've heard yet.


The first recording that Craft made of the Brahms is exceptional, this


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## starthrower

I'll give a listen to the Rosbaud, and Gielen operas. Thanks!


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## millionrainbows

Paul Jacobs on Nonesuch is one of the best renditions of Schoenberg. It's recorded well, and is very subtle and precise.









Also, I consider my first experiences with Schoenberg to be the most important, since I "imprinted" on them. For that reason I suggest Stokowski's Verklarte Nacht, and the early Boulez Domaine Musical recordings, with the sextet version of same, and the Serenade.

Unfortunately, most volumes of "The Music of Arnold Schoenberg" box sets on Columbia Masterworks conducted by Robert Craft are not available except as the original vinyl. There are a couple of exceptions to this: the Brahms/Bach transcriptions, and volume VII, released as a Glenn Gould album, but containing Eugene Ormandy's version of Theme and Variations op. 43b, a very important work to me.









Also, David Atherton's Wind Quintet op.26 on London, and the Serenade op. 24/Marlboro Festival 40th anniversary. For the String Quartets, I consider the LaSalle box essential, but not definitive.


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## flamencosketches

I have a couple of the complete Schoenberg piano music sets (Pollini and Gould), and I'm totally satisfied with both. But I may have to go for that Paul Jacobs disc on account of the great album artwork. Schiele is one of my favorite painters and his portrait of Schoenberg is almost as cool as Schoenberg's own self-portrait. 

Good call. If I come around any of those on vinyl, I'll make sure to grab one. My classical vinyl collection is seriously lacking, especially when it comes to 12-tone music. I once saw the complete piano music of Stockhausen on vinyl for really cheap at a record store. At the time I just noted the oddity of the find, but I regret not going for it now.

I'm listening now to the Schoenberg arrangement of a G.M. Monn harpsichord concerto on this Robert Craft disc. He basically transcribed this harpsichord concerto by a relatively obscure Viennese late Baroque/early Classical composer for cello and orchestra. Very strange, but it's quite good and very enjoyable. Sounds nothing like anything else he ever wrote, nor any other work of the era in which it was originally written.


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