# Mozart Requiem



## PlaySalieri

I thought it would be a good idea to start a Mozart requiem thread. It's a problematic work and the questions over authenticity fascinate me as much as I rue the fact that this incredible work was left unfinished by the composer.

I came to the requiem quite early in my career as a Mozart devotee - and went through months listening to almost nothing else - reading the research - trying different recordings - approaches.

The best recording I have ever heard remains John Eliot Gardiner's period performance on Philips and I would like to ask for alternative recommendations - as I have not tried any recording made in the last 15 years - I have probably heard the lot before that - Karajan, Bohm etc etc

It's a sublime and frustrating experience listening to this work - it soars to heights - and falls into troughs - where no doubt Mozart's intentions are unknown. The ending is disappointing and I cannot believe Mozart would have completed his requiem in the unimaginative way that his pupil did. Nevertheless - it seems to me that the traditional performance edition is the best - I hate Hogwood's recording.

So I would like to ask if anyone has any thoughts on this work - how do you listen to it? I know some people who listen as far as the Lacrymosa - rejecting the latter half as too spurious to warrant further attention. Yet there is much fine music and I personally listen all the way to the end. The Sanctus is too banal and I can't believe a single note of that belongs to Mozart. But there is beauty in the Benedictus and Agnus Dei.

Does anyone know if scholarship on the requiem has advanced or shed any additional light on this work in the last 15 years or so - I have been out of touch.


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde

If you think the best version is John Eliot Gardiner's DO NOT UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES LISTEN TO THE BÖHM. IT IS HIGHLY ROMANTICISED AND FAR TOO SLOW. UGH, DISGUSTING.


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## Jared

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> If you think the best version is John Eliot Gardiner's DO NOT UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES LISTEN TO THE BÖHM. IT IS HIGHLY ROMANTICISED AND FAR TOO SLOW. UGH, DISGUSTING.


I think this is a little unfair. The Bohm version was certainly considered a very good version, but it was of it was very much of its time. Critics today might call it slow of tempo, orchestrally muddy, overblown and heavily Romanticised as you say... but does that make it a bad version? Certainly it wouldn't have been anything like Mozart would have recognised as being his own orchestration, but that doesn't stop it being art at its most emotionally life-affirming in its own right. Many Classical Music fans for instance still rate Klemperer's 'Missa Solemnis' as being one of the finet interpretations, whilst Karajan's Mozart Requiem is still very highly thought of and sold by the cart load.

Speaking personally, I prefer the HIP oriented versions, for which I think the Gardiner and Marriner are exceptionally good examples and the ones I turn to most often, but they certainly wouldn't have been my Grandpa's choice!


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## Bas

I have a really average quality recording of this Masterpiece (capital entirely intended here), both in terms of sound quality as well as the soloists. 
This recording however brought me in love with the piece, that I right now consider as the Greatest thing the Western culture has ever produced. You may think: shud it with your highly subjective superlatives, but I mean it.

Mozart's Requiem is so touching, beautiful, divine, sacred, that no words can describe it.

I'll follow this thread, to get a good view about which recordings I need to have.


Sincerely,


Bas


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## trazom

I found this article on the Requiem recently. It doesn't answer all the questions about the piece, but at least clears up some of the rumors that Sussmayr wrote everything after the lacrymosa (I still see people saying this on youtube).

http://kennethwoods.net/blog1/2009/04/05/who-wrote-the-mozart-requiem/


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## Philip

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> BÖHM FAR TOO SLOW


Try Celibidache...

Mozart - Requiem, K 626 (complete) - Celibidache





Wow! Excellent!!!


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## Ramako

I've always got the impression from the little internet research that I've done on the piece, that the Offertorio (Domine Jesu and Hostias), that is the bit that people often find an enormous let down after the Lacrimosa, were written by Mozart. Most scholarly works (as the article above does) focus on the last three movements (Sanctus, Benedictus, Agnus Dei) which Sussmayer is supposed to have mostly written, whereas its the Domine Jesu that most people find "boring" after the Lacrimosa (the end of which is also supposed to be his work). Can anyone put me straight here?


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## trazom

Ramako said:


> I've always got the impression from the little internet research that I've done on the piece, that the Offertorio (Domine Jesu and Hostias), that is the bit that people often find an enormous let down after the Lacrimosa, were written by Mozart. Most scholarly works (as the article above does) focus on the last three movements (Sanctus, Benedictus, Agnus Dei) which Sussmayer is supposed to have mostly written, whereas its the Domine Jesu that most people find "boring" after the Lacrimosa (the end of which is also supposed to be his work). Can anyone put me straight here?


I don't know about the Hostias, but the Domine Jesu Christe seems to be well-received(from the comments) and it's one of my favorite sections:






There's a chart half-way down the page says what sections Mozart completed, but not much info on the Sanctus, Benedictus, and Agnus Dei.

http://www.its.caltech.edu/~tan/Mozartreq/main.html


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## Ramako

trazom said:


> I don't know about the Hostias, but the Domine Jesu Christe seems to be well-received(from the comments) and it's one of my favorite sections:
> 
> There's a chart half-way down the page says what sections Mozart completed, but not much info on the Sanctus, Benedictus, and Agnus Dei.
> 
> http://www.its.caltech.edu/~tan/Mozartreq/main.html


Thanks for the info - and that's a great chart.

Everyone I know says how you can immediately tell from after the Lacrimosa (i.e. Domine Jesu) how much worse it is. TBH I think there is a little bit of reverse taste going on - they think that Mozart died after Lacrimosa and assume Domine Jesu is by Sussmayer _therefore_ it can't be as good. I don't think I have the heart to correct them.


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde

Philip said:


> Try Celibidache...
> 
> Mozart - Requiem, K 626 (complete) - Celibidache
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Wow! Excellent!!!


Geez that drags on over an hour? At that excruciatingly slow pace it redefines the phrase "dying a slow and painful death."

AARGH


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## Sonata

Mozart has become one of my favorites, but so far it's not so with his Requiem. There are seperate sections that I really do like, but on the whole the work hasn't clicked for me yet. I have only listened to one version so far ( I don't recall which at the moment, but I know it's a well regarded version.) It's been months since I've listened though, now that my appreciation for him has grown I'll try it again soon. Brahm's German Requiem and Faure's Requiem are tops for me.


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## Philip

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> Geez that drags on over an hour? At that excruciatingly slow pace it redefines the phrase "dying a slow and painful death."
> 
> AARGH


You should try actually listening to it!!


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## bigshot

I love Bohm's Mozart. Nothing at all wrong with it.


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## Philip




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## kv466

Finally!! Thank you, Phillip!


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## PlaySalieri

The Offertorio (Domine Jesu and Hostias) is fantastic - I don't think it's boring at all. Mozart wrote out the vocal parts for virtually the whole requiem - any decent musicologist on the basis of that alone - could construct the instrumentation around it because the first violin part is also written out. 
As i said - the Sanctus is highly suspect - is second rate. Compare it with the majestic sanctus in the c minor mass - no comparison at all. The Benedictus - is beautiful - I think Mozart must have sketched that to some extent and S completed it. The agnus dei also is wonderful in its way and I doubt if S could have conceived that all by himself. S was a mediocre talent - there is no way he could have invented - the sanctus may be his alone - he did a decent job there. What modern composer would even attempt to finish off a master's work? It took D Cooke 10 years to complete Mahler's 10th. S had just weeks.
The best parts of this work are so fabulous it is worth listening to and coming back to.


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## Carpenoctem

I've just got Peter Schreier's recording of Requiem. It's a bit overshadowed by Karajan and Gardiner's recording.

The tempo is fine, even though I'd like Confutatis to be a bit faster. The sound quality is superb. Overall, currently my favorite recoding.


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## Philip

Had a listen of this Herreweghe recording recently. It's very good.










http://youtu.be/WUBNM9zurBo


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## Carpenoctem

^This is a wonderful recording.


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## Vaneyes

My starter is Sherchen's (1958, 63:16). The fastest I've experienced, Hickox at 46:51.

View attachment 8387


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde

This one is faster:










41:03


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## Vaneyes

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> This one is faster:
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> 41:03


Thanks for that startling time. I was so intrigued, I sampled. Had to spit it out...it was so awful. Of speedier versions, I could recommend the Hickox.


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## Ondine

I have Bohm, Marriner and Schreier. 

Bohm offers a very 'human' version. Offers a concern about a very difficult oeuvre to define its approach. But Marriner and Schreier are outstanding making some sort of homage if not so 'human' as Bohm's.

Requiem brings me mixed emotions.

Being Mozart so special form my live, context, & emotional needs and knowing that he died -it is told- writing it, it is an oeuvre which deserves high consideration.

It is unavoidable some sadness from myself.

His life and circumstances were not so easy. I think that Forman's Amadeus could have shown a more complete Mozart because the music he composed has something that at first glance can't be grasped properly.

I sometimes think that the perfection of his music is sometimes irksome and irritating to some music lovers. I respect that and it is OK.

I can't talk too much about Mozart because it is hard to put in words the emotional response I have had ever when listening to his entire oeuvre.

But happens that the Requiem is revealing that intimate aspect that maybe is not well documented and was hardly known even by his closest friends and wife.

Listening for years his oeuvre, exploring his not well known and appreciated compositions, knowing that in his early adolescence he was already a consummate composer there something more behind that alleged 'shallowness' as clearness and subtlety. 

That he was treated as a ordinary servant and that most of his music was forced by the demanding frivolous society he found finally in his Requiem a break to show more freedom its really a tragedy that had to be his last and incomplete composition.

I listen it from time to time with reverence.


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## principe

Mozart's Requiem is arguably the best ever composed in this medium. A balanced work of enormous beauty and brilliant writing in every line of the composition (anything is practically singable).
From a multitude (a true plethora) of good recordings, it is quite difficult to choose even some. However, for me the one with Harnoncourt on DHM is superb in every way, brilliantly recorded in SACD, though live. The cast is very fine.
From the recent ones, the one with The Sixteen and Harry Christophers is very good indeed and well recorded (on Coro).
From the "period" performances, at least the one of Bruggen on Glossa and the one of Savall on Alia Vox are worth noting.
From the "big" names, labels, orchestras, soloists, etc., I love the following:
- Kertesz with an impressive cast of soloists (now on Eloquence).
- Bertini with a very good group of singers on Capriccio.
- Mackerras in a very subtle but emotional performance and in a bright analytical recording of Linn.
- The late Robert Shaw's brilliant "historic" performance on Telarc with an impressive quartet of singers.
- Abbado with some very good singers of our time in a tight but superb performance on DG.

Principe


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## Vaneyes

principe said:


> Mozart's Requiem is arguably the best ever composed in this medium. A balanced work of enormous beauty and brilliant writing in every line of the composition (anything is practically singable).
> From a multitude (a true plethora) of good recordings, it is quite difficult to choose even some. However, for me the one with Harnoncourt on DHM is superb in every way, brilliantly recorded in SACD, though live. The cast is very fine.
> From the recent ones, the one with The Sixteen and Harry Christophers is very good indeed and well recorded (on Coro).
> From the "period" performances, at least the one of Bruggen on Glossa and the one of Savall on Alia Vox are worth noting.
> From the "big" names, labels, orchestras, soloists, etc., I love the following:
> - Kertesz with an impressive cast of soloists (now on Eloquence).
> - Bertini with a very good group of singers on Capriccio.
> - Mackerras in a very subtle but emotional performance and in a bright analytical recording of Linn.
> - The late Robert Shaw's brilliant "historic" performance on Telarc with an impressive quartet of singers.
> - Abbado with some very good singers of our time in a tight but superb performance on DG.
> 
> Principe


Though I enjoy this "completed" Requiem very much, I doubt if musicologists would rate it numero uno, with Verdi, Berlioz, Faure, Brahms, Britten, Cherubini, Dvorak, and others, to choose from.


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde

vaneyes said:


> though i enjoy this "completed" requiem very much, i doubt if musicologists would rate it numero uno, with verdi, berlioz, faure, brahms, britten, cherubini, dvorak, and others, to choose from.


AND YOU HAVE FAILED TO MENTION THE BEST REQUIEM OF THEM ALL COMPOSED BY *LIGETI!!!!!* :scold:


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## principe

Vaneyes, some of the Requiems you mentioned are very significant, but none has the perfect balance of form, sublime melody and superb harmony, serving the purpose of the work in the closest possible way. 
Verdi's is a massive _operatic_ choral work, which, somehow serves the "Messe des morts". Impressive, but is it a true and musically balanced Requiem? Only the excessive use of trumpets (let alone the big drum) makes it almost brilliant entertainment.
Berlioz' is also a grandiose work out of proportion. For those who do not mind excess of form, sonorities, instrumentation, maybe it's the strongest contender. However, as for the actual substance of the music...
Faure's is so human, lovely and simple that could never be but only a _favourite_ one, but not a top Requiem. Even Faure himself has confessed: "My Requiem was written for none or nothing...I could say...for pleasure"!
Brahms' is a masterpiece of a very austere and unique character. That's why it is performed only a fraction of the times Mozart's is performed all over the globe.
Britten's is a very individual, modern masterpiece. It cannot be compared with a classic one. The few performances and recordings (comparatively) show its unique character.
Cherubini's (in c minor) is the closest to Mozart's, but the man didn't reach this perfection of the form and balance of the different sections. However, it's a strong contender for the very top Requiems.
Dvorak's is for those few who may like his choral works. Personally, I cannot compare it even with his contemporary (Brahms). However, it sounds slightly better than Schumann's Requiem and Requiem pour Mignon and far better than Liszt's.
As for Ligetti's, this is, probably, only for the Men...of AvantGarde.

Principe


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## Ondine

principe said:


> Mozart's Requiem is arguably the best ever composed in this medium. A balanced work of enormous beauty and brilliant writing in every line of the composition (anything is practically singable).
> From a multitude (a true plethora) of good recordings, it is quite difficult to choose even some. However, for me the one with Harnoncourt on DHM is superb in every way, brilliantly recorded in SACD, though live. The cast is very fine.
> From the recent ones, the one with The Sixteen and Harry Christophers is very good indeed and well recorded (on Coro).
> From the "period" performances, at least the one of Bruggen on Glossa and the one of Savall on Alia Vox are worth noting.
> From the "big" names, labels, orchestras, soloists, etc., I love the following:
> - Kertesz with an impressive cast of soloists (now on Eloquence).
> - Bertini with a very good group of singers on Capriccio.
> - Mackerras in a very subtle but emotional performance and in a bright analytical recording of Linn.
> - The late Robert Shaw's brilliant "historic" performance on Telarc with an impressive quartet of singers.
> - Abbado with some very good singers of our time in a tight but superb performance on DG.
> 
> Principe


It is beautiful the way you speak about Mozart, Principe...


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## principe

Ondine, Mozart gives me an utmost fulfillment than almost any other composer, in every single composition of his. Very rare to say that even for Beethoven or Bach's total output. Wagner is the other one who can do the same, but, he wrote only a handful monumental (gargantuan) works that require a "huge deep breath" and appropriate mental preparation, before embarking on them.
Another thing: Thanks to Mozart (and, to some extent, Haydn), I became a true convert of Chamber Music.

Principe


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## Ondine

principe said:


> Ondine, Mozart gives me an utmost fulfillment than almost any other composer, in every single composition of his.





> Another thing: Thanks to Mozart (and, to some extent, Haydn), I became a true convert of Chamber Music.
> 
> Principe


Happy that we concur here, Principe


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## eorrific

Philip said:


> Try Celibidache...
> 
> Mozart - Requiem, K 626 (complete) - Celibidache
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Wow! Excellent!!!


Celibidache's version is great to listen to before a run. It's so frustrating it makes you run faster and farther.


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## ianbobian

"I've always got the impression from the little internet research that I've done on the piece, that the Offertorio (Domine Jesu and Hostias), that is the bit that people often find an enormous let down after the Lacrimosa, were written by Mozart."

Um, actually Hostias is one of my favorite movements. I don't know why. It just really speaks to me due to its simplicity.


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## Babs

There is a recording by Boston Baroque in which Marty Pearlman (the music director) uses quick tempos which are played on period instruments. The music has a new completion by Robert Levin. Pearlman says, " What is particularly attractive about this new Mozart Requiem completion by Robert Levin is its respect for the history of the work, its effort to repair and improve upon the familiar Sussmayr version, rather than to replace it." It is a Telarc recording, and it is worth a listen!


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## samm

Mozart Requiem with AKAMUS done at the Mozartfest 2015 in Würzburg (Germany):


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## fvrt38

I am playing this in a month or so on the organ (chamber organ, no pedals), with orchestra and choir. Does anyone know where I can get the organ part from? And is a realisation available, or will I have to read figured bass?


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## CDs

Philip said:


> Had a listen of this Herreweghe recording recently. It's very good.
> 
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> http://youtu.be/WUBNM9zurBo


I love this recording my favorite Mozart Requiem!
I have a two other recordings one by Bohm and one by Mackerras. So far I can't really get past a few minutes of the Mackerras version but I think tonight I'm gonna try again.


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## Pugg

​
Very lonely on top above them all :tiphat:


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## RobertKC

My only recording is Ralf Otto and Bachchor Mainz. This 2005 recording has excellent SACD sound quality. I'm amazed that I was able to buy a used copy in excellent condition for $4.69 from an Amazon seller, and it was shipped from Germany to the USA for $3.99.


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## Davila

Love playing the Tuba Mirum tenor trombone solo, even if it's for an audition


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## Pugg

Davila said:


> Love playing the Tuba Mirum tenor trombone solo, even if it's for an audition


A real musician answer


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## Fletcher

I have a few favourite recordings of the Mozart Requiem, and all for different reasons. First, a recording taken from a performance given by *Bernard Labadie* & *La Chapelle de Québec* to commemorate the victims of 2001 WTC 9/11 attacks in NY. Like RobertKC's above suggestion, this performance is also notable for the use of Robert Levin's marvellous and now increasingly popular edition which includes the _Amen_ fugue, a rewritten _Osanna in excelsis_ fugue, as well as some re-orchestration.

I'd go as far to name this recording as my favourite due to its highly emotional punch but, for the exact same reason, find it almost too overwhelming to listen to.















*Teodor Currentzis* and his band *MusicaAeterna*'s recording of the Mozart Requiem packs a very different sort of punch. Currentzis, like much of his other work, strives to create something very different from the performance tradition _norm_ we become used to from the whole Argos catalogue of other Mozart Req recordings. For example, the strings of MusicAeterna produce a terrifying account of the _Dies Irae_ by using the percussive technique of spiccato. The _Amen_ fugue spookily cut off prematurely, perhaps to characterise Mozarts 'unfinished business' as well as the further mystery surrounding the composition of what is now one of the worlds most popular works of music. The _Benedictus_ and soloists however are light and pleasing.

Take a listen, see what you think..


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## Poodle




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## helenora

only one for *Celibidache* so far , I add my voice to it.

slow and everything can be heard, everything. ...what a beginning, genius!


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## Vinyl

My local men's choir did this rather unique version once:


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