# Wading through the swamp of Beethoven Symphony recordings: essentials and skips



## Melvin (Mar 25, 2011)

I know this is an overly debated topic. But can any offer either good hyperlinks to definitive listings, or offer up your personal opinions. What are the absolute essential recordings? And which are the ones to give the skip for?


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## bharbeke (Mar 4, 2013)

I'll offer two cycles that are generally high quality and a couple other standout individual recordings.

Cycles: Wyn Morris with London Symphony Orchestra, Herbert von Karajan with Berlin Philharmonic

Symphony No. 5: Rene Leibowitz, Royal Philharmonic Orchestra
Symphony No. 8: Otto Klemperer, Cologne Radio Symphony Orchestra


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## AfterHours (Mar 27, 2017)

I haven't revisited his 1st, 2nd and 4th for quite a while now, and wouldn't know which are the "best recordings". However, I've heard many many (maybe too many) recordings of his others and the very best I know (imo) for each would be per the following list, in order of my preference for each work:

*Symphony No. 9 in D Minor "Choral" - Ludwig van Beethoven (1824)*
BEST RECORDED PERFORMANCE: Herbert von Karajan - Berlin Philharmonic (1963)
Available on Spotify as follows: http://g-images.amazon.com/images/G/01/ciu/a0/0a/a2ff224128a0ad662e3fb010.L.jpg
Available on Youtube: 




*Symphony No. 5 in C Minor - Ludwig van Beethoven (1808)*
BEST RECORDED PERFORMANCE: John Eliot Gardiner - Orchestre Révolutionnaire Et Romantique (2016)
Available on Youtube: 




*Symphony No. 3 in E-flat Major "Eroica" - Ludwig van Beethoven (1804)*
BEST RECORDED PERFORMANCE: Pierre Monteux - Royal Concertgebouw Orchestra (1962)
Available on Spotify as follows: http://redmp3.su/cover/2776659-460x460/pierre-monteux-directs-beethoven-dvorak.jpg
Available on Youtube: 




*Symphony No. 6 in F Major "Pastoral" - Ludwig van Beethoven (1808)* 
BEST RECORDED PERFORMANCE: John Eliot Gardiner - Orchestre Révolutionnaire Et Romantique (1992)
Available on Spotify as follows: http://cps-static.rovicorp.com/3/JPG_500/MI0002/925/MI0002925734.jpg?partner=allrovi.com
Available on YouTube: 




_*(Note: for the 6th, I might place Karl Bohm/Berlin Philharmonic (DG) equal to or above this selection. I'm undecided.)*_

*Symphony No. 7 in A Major - Ludwig van Beethoven (1812)*
BEST RECORDED PERFORMANCE: Leonard Bernstein - Vienna Philharmonic (1980)
Available on Spotify as follows: https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/815Vijs12GL._SY355_.jpg
Available on YouTube:
(1st Movement) 



(2nd Movement) 



(3rd Movement) 



(4th Movement) 




*Symphony No. 8 in F Major - Ludwig van Beethoven (1812)* 
BEST RECORDED PERFORMANCE: Riccardo Chailly - Gewandhausorchester (2007-2009)
Available on Spotify as follows: https://welltempered.files.wordpress.com/2011/12/riccadro-chailly-beethoven.jpg
Available on YouTube:


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## Melvin (Mar 25, 2011)

There are many to pick from at the library. What do people think of the Toscanini, Szell, Roger Norington, Christopher Hogwood, Ozawa, Bernstein, etc? which to skip I can't waste my time with every single one


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## bharbeke (Mar 4, 2013)

Szell is good for 2 and 5, and Bernstein is good for 1. I haven't heard their version of any of the others, but I like their style in general.

Is your preference for more modern or HIP performances? I would think Ozawa would be another good choice for modern sounding recordings.


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## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

Melvin said:


> There are many to pick from at the library. What do people think of the Toscanini, Szell, Roger Norington, Christopher Hogwood, Ozawa, Bernstein, etc? which to skip I can't waste my time with every single one


That depends on your ears. From the list given, personally, I like Szell and Toscanini for their precision. You might not like Toscanini's recorded sound; it is very dry. I can't tolerate Norrington; he is too superficial. I haven't heard Ozawa or Hogwood, but Bernstein and the New York Phil might be a good introduction. He's very energetic and engaging.


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## MarkW (Feb 16, 2015)

Nothing you read here will be much help. Everyone has his own taste and own preferences. My meat is another's poison and vice versa. I'll tell you to avoid a performance or group of performances and some one else will immediately tell you they're great. I've very much enjoyed individual symphony performances by Toscanini, Furtwangler, Schmidt-Isserstedt, Norrington, Gardner, Munch, Fricsay, Bernstein . . . but I've also disliked performances by many of the same. Anyone who calls a performance the greatest, essential, etc. is speaking for himself. Sorry not to be more help, but CM is not an area where others can often do the work for you.

(But just to muddy the waters, to me, Simon Rattle sounds more like Rattle than Beethoven.,  )


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## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

1st: Karajan (1963)
2nd: Klemperer
3rd: Szell
4th: Walter
5th: Kleiber
6th: Walter
7th: Wand
8th: Szell
9th: Solti


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Here's a Frankencycle voted elsewhere that's not too bad.

Symphony No. 1 - Christopher Hogwood, Academy of Ancient Music
Symphony No. 2 - John Eliot Gardiner, Orchestre Révolutionnaire et Romantique (Archiv)
Symphony No. 3 - Leonard Bernstein, Vienna Philharmonic Orchestra
Symphony No. 4 - Bruno Walter, Columbia Symphony Orchestra
Symphony No. 5 - Wilhelm Furtwangler, Vienna Philharmonic Orchestra 1954
Symphony No. 6 - Bruno Walter, Columbia Symphony Orchestra
Symphony No. 7 - Claudio Abbado, Berlin Philharmonic Orchestra studio
Symphony No. 8 - Paul Kletzki, Czech Philharmonic Orchestra
Symphony No. 9 - Ferenc Fricsay, Berlin Philharmonic Orchestra


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## Melvin (Mar 25, 2011)

I have no intention to sit down and review 20-30 different recordings of one symphony side by side, let alone do this for all nine. I have many many other pressing items on my listening agenda besides doing this you see. I do think it is helpful to hear the opinion of people who are very experienced and have heard dozens throughout their life, this is where a critic is useful. Generally, certain recordings tend to be considered top-of-the-heap. But I can see how people would be cautious to label any recordings "BAD".


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## AfterHours (Mar 27, 2017)

Melvin said:


> I have no intention to sit down and review 20-30 different recordings of one symphony side by side, let alone do this for all nine. I have many many other pressing items on my listening agenda besides doing this you see. I do think it is helpful to hear the opinion of people who are very experienced and have heard dozens throughout their life, this is where a critic is useful. Generally, certain recordings tend to be considered top-of-the-heap. But I can see how people would be cautious to label any recordings "BAD".


Understood, you may not end up agreeing that what I have listed are the absolute best for each symphony, but I've done my homework, and I doubt you won't think they're at least superb. I may be wrong of course but I'll be interested to hear what you think if/when you get around to hearing them!


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## AfterHours (Mar 27, 2017)

MarkW said:


> Nothing you read here will be much help.


Why so apathetic? Many of the recommendations I've come across on this site (in practically every thread) are well informed and rarely disappointing.


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## AfterHours (Mar 27, 2017)

Phil loves classical said:


> 1st: Karajan (1963)
> 2nd: Klemperer
> 3rd: Szell
> 4th: Walter
> ...


Almost all your choices are among my top 5-ish for each.


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## Oldhoosierdude (May 29, 2016)

I have at least a dozen complete cycles. And gotten rid of a dozen more. Barenboim (1999), Gardiner, Walter, Blomstedt, Kletzki, Szell and Cluytens all are mostly good recordings. Others already mentioned have some I like and some I don't. Fricsay has a great 9th. 
You mentioned that you don't want to listen to a lot of recordings. I would suggest you pick a cycle and get on with it.


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## Melvin (Mar 25, 2011)

Oldhoosierdude said:


> I have at least a dozen complete cycles. And gotten rid of a dozen more.


I'm really curious: which ones in particular did you decide weren't worth hanging on to?



Oldhoosierdude said:


> You mentioned that you don't want to listen to a lot of recordings. I would suggest you pick a cycle and get on with it.


 Right now I just have random picks from the library which I am indeed listening to. Toscanini 1 & 3, Szell 1 & 6, Hogwood 4 & 5, Bernstein 5. Kleiber 7 is what I grew up with, it is definitely essential. I borrowed The Walter #6 based on recommendation, it is very great. The available selection is very overwhelming.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

These days, anybody who spends more than the price of a Big Mac on a Beethoven symphony cycle is probably fooling themselves. For instance, you can get a truly excellent cycle by Rene Leibowitz conducting the Royal Philharmonic Orchestra for $2.69, and that includes a lot of other stuff as well. This is really world-class playing with a singular vision, one of the earliest cycles to try to stick to Ludwig's metronome marks. The woodwind playing is virtuosic!


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

Reiner, Toscanini, Szell..all great conductors for Beethoven...Bernstein Monteux, Solti can be very good also


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Don't forget Bernard Haitink with the Royal Concertgebouw orchestra.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Pugg said:


> Don't forget Bernard Haitink with the Royal Concertgebouw orchestra.


I suggest that the more recent Haitink cycle with the London Symphony Orchestra is better. He has changed his ways! This is free to stream for Amazon Prime members.


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## Haydn man (Jan 25, 2014)

Just go for the first Karajan cycle 
Not everyone's favourite conductor but certainly well worth a listen


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## Ralphus (Nov 13, 2016)

My personal favourite is Harnoncourt/COE (Warner).

Older: Cluytens/Berlin (Warner); Kletzki/Czech (Supraphon); I like Konwitschny (Berlin Classics) but others will no doubt lambaste me for that choice.

HIP: Gardiner/ORR (DG); Immerseel/Anima Eterna (Zig-Zag)

Someone else mentioned that there are so many choices that every listener will have their own responses. It's very true. There are no more opinionated classical music fans than when it comes to Beethoven or Mahler symphony cycles. I gave some of my choices but I know others will HATE some I mentioned. I listen with _my_ ears and hear what _I_ hear.

However, I think it's good to have a traditional cycle, a HIP cycle, and a modern cycle, or a couple of each.

Happy listening.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

On another site, the Gardiner/ORR cycle was voted #1, narrowly edging the Von Karajan 1963.


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## geralmar (Feb 15, 2013)

Many worthy recommendations; but the standards of recorded Beethoven are high enough that I think it would almost be more helpful to name those to avoid: for instance Maximianno Cobra whose recordings are so far out of the mainstream (traditional or "historically informed") that they can be considered to be distortions of the composer's intent. If any in the ancient Joseph Krips/London Symphony cycle comes into consideration, then avoid the ghastly Bescol transfers. Also the anonymously conducted Eroica on Intersound manages to lose half of the funeral march movement.

I'm sure there are other horrors... .


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## Nereffid (Feb 6, 2013)

MarkW said:


> Nothing you read here will be much help. Everyone has his own taste and own preferences. My meat is another's poison and vice versa. I'll tell you to avoid a performance or group of performances and some one else will immediately tell you they're great. ... Anyone who calls a performance the greatest, essential, etc. is speaking for himself.


I agree with this - so often well-intended advice from a lot of people just makes the situation even murkier. Still, if the same names keep cropping up then that's worth paying attention to.

Some names not mentioned that I enjoy:

Charles Mackerras/Scottish Chamber Orchestra (Hyperion)

Paavo Järvi/Deutsche Kammerphilharmonie Bremen (RCA)

Emmanuel Krivine/La Chambre Philharmonique (Naive)

Osmo Vänskä/Minnesota Orchestra (BIS)


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## Judith (Nov 11, 2015)

I have a whole cycle conducted by Simon Rattle and Vienna Philharmonic but feel as though there is better!

Do love 4th & 7th ASMF directed by Joshua Bell from violin!


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## Oldhoosierdude (May 29, 2016)

Melvin said:


> I'm really curious: which ones in particular did you decide weren't worth hanging on to?/QUOTE]
> 
> Not that they weren't worth hanging onto, but that I preferred listening to others. If they don't stand apart in some way from the ones I have, then I let them go. Solti, Vanska, Chailly, Immerseal, Abbado to name a few, and *I am probably parting with the Karajan 1963 cds sometime soon (Anyone interested?)*. There's nothing wrong with Karajan, in fact the 9th is excellent. I bought it used for a price I couldn't pass up, but alas I would rather listen to a host of others before Karajan. If I keep it, it would be permanently in the automobile but I already have downloads of Wynn Morris and Rene Leibowitz that I don't listen to except in the car.


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## JAS (Mar 6, 2013)

One thing that seems essentially true (if not quite entirely true) is that for every composer, work or performance, you can probably find someone who likes it and someone who doesn't like it. All of the "best" or "greatest" whatever threads mostly demonstrate that people frequently have very personal, divergent, and sometimes (at least from one's own perspective) rather bizarre tastes. The trick to finding value in the wide-ranging flood of subjective opinion is much the same as that for evaluating the opinions of professional critics. You have to find the ones whose conclusions seem to be verified by your own experience, and to ignore those who consistently fail to live up to that standard. (And yes, that does mean that you will have to endure a certain amount of disappointment in the sampling process.)


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## Oldhoosierdude (May 29, 2016)

KenOC said:


> These days, anybody who spends more than the price of a Big Mac on a Beethoven symphony cycle is probably fooling themselves. For instance, you can get a truly excellent cycle by Rene Leibowitz conducting the Royal Philharmonic Orchestra for $2.69, and that includes a lot of other stuff as well. This is really world-class playing with a singular vision, one of the earliest cycles to try to stick to Ludwig's metronome marks. The woodwind playing is virtuosic!


Can't beat the price. Also the Wynn Morris cycle for $.99 on Amazon which isn't as spirited I think as Leibowitz but still solid.

if one wants to spend a few dollars more for a download then Bruno Walter's outstanding set is $10.50








Herbert Blomstedt's fantastic set is $8.99.








If Cd's are the thing then all one can do is look and take a chance. As far as what I really didn't like, Walter Weller's set I couldn't even get through, same with Simon Rattles set (thankfully Spotify kept me from spending money on these). Muti's set bored me as did Abbado and Solti. Chailly's set was too speedy for me but had great sound. Krips and Furtwangler have poor sound quality but good performances. The Klemperer set I listened to sounded like it was playing in the other room. Bernstein's first recordings are hit and miss with the 6th being exceptional and some of the others ok and some not very lively, and the 9th screeching in my headphones at times due to poor recording quality. Bernstein's 70's recording is good and bad at times but mostly blah to me.

But that's all me. Like the above poster mentioned, we all must decide our own preferences. The sets of Weller and Chailly that I don't like, others find to be essential recordings for them.

It would be better if everyone realized that I am right and they are wrong and go with whatever I say (a joke, please don't ban me).


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

Walter's Beethoven efforts are very good, overall - his NYPO set [early 50s], and his later ColSO set both have outstanding performances.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

One thing to consider is tempo. Do you like your Beethoven slow, medium, or fast? Disregarding the timing differences from some not including repeats, here is a list I put together (not guaranteeing perfect accuracy here) of total times for various Beethoven symphony cycles. It gives some indication of who is slow and who is fast:

Total Minutes on CDs:
Gardiner 329
Toscanini 321
zinman 334
Gielen 336
Krips 339 
Rattle 353
Barenboim 355
Hanover 348
Karajan '63 329
Leinsdorf 347
Kletzki 353
Cluytens 359
Muti 360
Maag 367

Alternately, I compiled total KB (128 kbps vbr MP3s) for cycles I own:
Leibowitz 309 KB
Zinman 310 KB
Toscanini (~1950 cycle) 311 KB
Monteux 329 KB
Hanover 335 KB
Ferenscik 335 KB
Szell 346 KB
Wand 344 KB
Bernstein 347 KB
Klemperer 366 KB

Personally, I prefer faster tempos and my top three of the sets I own currently are Zinman, Toscanini, and Monteux.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

geralmar said:


> If any in the ancient Joseph Krips/London Symphony cycle comes into consideration, then avoid the ghastly Bescol transfers.


I bought the Krips cycle recently for $10. Threw out the CDs and kept the can they came in, which is great for holding bric-a-brac on my desk.


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## Oldhoosierdude (May 29, 2016)

KenOC said:


> I bought the Krips cycle recently for $10. Threw out the CDs and kept the can they came in, which is great for holding bric-a-brac on my desk.


I like the Krips cycle. It was my intro to classical music with the cheap vinyl pressing of the 70's. I have a cd set now and the sound can be awful at times.


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## Judith (Nov 11, 2015)

MarkW said:


> Nothing you read here will be much help. Everyone has his own taste and own preferences. My meat is another's poison and vice versa. I'll tell you to avoid a performance or group of performances and some one else will immediately tell you they're great. I've very much enjoyed individual symphony performances by Toscanini, Furtwangler, Schmidt-Isserstedt, Norrington, Gardner, Munch, Fricsay, Bernstein . . . but I've also disliked performances by many of the same. Anyone who calls a performance the greatest, essential, etc. is speaking for himself. Sorry not to be more help, but CM is not an area where others can often do the work for you.
> 
> (But just to muddy the waters, to me, Simon Rattle sounds more like Rattle than Beethoven.,  )


I have the Simon Rattle set and that is why I have ordered another set by Nicholas Harnoncourt.

I do like 4th & 7th performed by ASMF with Joshua Bell directing from violin!


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## Brahmsianhorn (Feb 17, 2017)

Historic:

1 - Furtwangler 11/30/52
2 - Beecham '37
3 - Furtwangler 12/8/52
4 - Furtwangler '43
5 - Furtwangler 5/25/47
6 - Furtwangler 5/54
7 - Furtwangler '53
8 - Furtwangler '53
9 - Furtwangler 3/42

Modern sound:

1 & 4 - Karajan '77
2 & 8 - Norrington
3 - Klemperer '61
5 & 7 - C. Kleiber
6 - Walter '59
9 - Karajan '77


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## Tallisman (May 7, 2017)

I'd like to place a vote for Barenboim's Pastoral Symphony with the Berliner Staatskapelle. One of the best I've heard partially due to the recording's vibrant clarity which is really needed for the 6th more than any other.


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## Oldhoosierdude (May 29, 2016)

Tallisman said:


> I'd like to place a vote for Barenboim's Pastoral Symphony with the Berliner Staatskapelle. One of the best I've heard partially due to the recording's vibrant clarity which is really needed for the 6th more than any other.


Great recording. That whole set is good. 
Barenboim is less regarded by some. Conductors/Composers/Musicians who lived long ago, died early, were plagued with unfortunate illness or mental issues, or who otherwise battled inner demons of some sort seem to garner more attention. Barenboim doesn't have any of that going for him as far as I know. He needs to get with it.


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## 20centrfuge (Apr 13, 2007)

It's too bad we don't have more recordings of Beethoven's symphonies. Not much to choose from.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

20centrfuge said:


> It's too bad we don't have more recordings of Beethoven's symphonies. Not much to choose from.


:lol: That is funny because just as I was opening this thread, I was thinking that there are so many Beethoven symphony cycles that one can sometimes pick one up for very cheap, even at garage sales. In fact, my first cycle was obtained for $6 at a garage sale (Walter) and the next one I found at a garage sale was Karajan (for $3).

But you are right. We don't have enough. If only Ferenc Fricsay could have completed a cycle. Out of some 40+ Ninths I have listened to, none beat Fricsay's.


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## Oldhoosierdude (May 29, 2016)

20centrfuge said:


> It's too bad we don't have more recordings of Beethoven's symphonies. Not much to choose from.


What are there more of: Beethoven symphonies, Bach cello suites, or Vivaldi four seasons?

The only thing more plentiful than those works is political promises.


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