# Truly marketable true Classical



## Ethereality (Apr 6, 2019)

If some on the street pass by and they hear Beethoven, they will probably hear much silence then much noise to run away offended, as Beethoven's philosophy often resembles the summoned and animated from the ground and dirt, trashing about all surrounding rock and wind from the summoned golem's reach. For us that's a good thing, but

If they hear Tchaikovsky they might tap their feet to the melody, but as to not get and understand the core Classical experience at all, of say a work with counterpuntal ingenuity, rococo, rhythm, unless you mean something like this which arouses some suspicion of conversion. The Tchaikovsky of routine probably won't give the proper impression that this thread is to invest.

What do you think are some short moments of the pure classical experience that may stop some in their tracks, for at least a minute say, if there was a useful repetition of the best segment for the job of the passerby, to showcase advanced music.


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## mossyembankment (Jul 28, 2020)

Not trying to be a jerk, but as with some of your other posts I find the language of this difficult to parse... it would be easier to engage with what you're saying if you could write in a clearer and more grammatical way.


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## Ethereality (Apr 6, 2019)

By Beethoven I don't mean as an exclusion to the problem ie. the Ode, but just as a familiar caution.

Edit: I mean I'm more interested in what one would pose at an individual level, maybe for targeting some of their own collection at the mason, on his way to buy supplies or something, and not to promote some unifying creed of standardism here.

Is one minute a fruitless plot?


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## Ethereality (Apr 6, 2019)

I can only perform a statistical algorithm of movements which most strongly fit both opposite categories of beginner and advanced online, the netizen's vote, but couldn't be sure in the least that they all translate to the modern _pedestrial atmosphere _described.

*#1. Debussy: Claire de Lune





#2. Barber: Adagio for Strings





#3. Beethoven: Scherzo, Symphony No. 9





#4. Beethoven: Moonlight Sonata





#5. Wagner: Ride of the Valkyries




*

*Potential mentions calculated: Giazotto: Adagio in G Minor, Mozart: Requiem (Highlights), Bach: Air in G, Ravel: Bolero, J Strauss II: The Blue Danube*


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

If I'm guessing correctly, you're wondering what bit of classical music might get positive attention from people who don't ordinarily like classical music, or at least think they don't. Is that what you're asking?


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## Ethereality (Apr 6, 2019)

Yes not entirely; there are some clear delineations people have made between popular classical music, and great art music of the genre. Whatever that means to any poster in the briefest most impressionable setting: make do.


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## Ethereality (Apr 6, 2019)

Now to take it into the personal realm, I would say my favorite rhythmic contrapuntal passsges of Beethoven, Brahms and Mozart feel like they could ideally resonate with others. Ideally... Additionally, I fancy in my mind people would be charmed to dance by this, as I am charmed by the music when I see them. I wonder why they wouldn't dance?
*
**14:48 - 16:07*





Perhaps a string quartet on the street performs one happy Saturday.
*0:43 - 1:35*





Any good street music experiences you've had?


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## Malx (Jun 18, 2017)

_________________________


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## vtpoet (Jan 17, 2019)

I have no idea what you're asking. Each of your clirifications just adds more layers of incomprehenisiblity. It's like Inception, except with confusion instead of dreams.


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## Ethereality (Apr 6, 2019)

Well, I theorize if we forgo the third dimension of 'external appeal', it may answer many same questions by token of the second dimension's temporal prerequisite for partial attention, that is, because this creative limitation of time may be the white rabbit's (ie. the errander's) _essential_ standard by which music appraised, we can simplify. A thread was initiated on this though there seems more due to engage interest and recreation, like colorful rules with addictive plot devices, or perhaps none are so accurately specified in their interest, aside from real composers or students of music. The lack of zeroed-in focus never set logically with me on a forum of great sentiment, and so I've always wondered if there's an element of laze interfering with clarity in example setting. There hasn't been much answer to this question, perhaps one may step up here to consider where in the form of a specific work does the evaluative process find meaning, so feel free to gift any thoughts or examples.


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## 59540 (May 16, 2021)

vtpoet said:


> I have no idea what you're asking. Each of your clirifications just adds more layers of incomprehenisiblity. It's like Inception, except with confusion instead of dreams.


It's kind of fun trying to decipher, though.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

Ethereality said:


> I wonder why they wouldn't dance? Any good street music experiences you've had?


Thanks for posting this in another thread, btw (I literally danced to it):


Ethereality said:


> Stuck in my head is the beginning of Dido and Aeneas.
> *1:14 - 2:30*


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## MarkW (Feb 16, 2015)

It's kind of like using consecutive passes of Google Translator -- English to French to Bulgarian to Italian to Finnish, and back to English!


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## BrahmsWasAGreatMelodist (Jan 13, 2019)

I think I get what he's asking. Hopefully this is more understandable to those in need of clarification:

What are some examples of one-minute "popular" (i.e. appealing to general audiences) classical excerpts which represent the "pure classical experience", in the sense that these excerpts convey to general/uninformed audiences the fundamental essence and complexity of classical music as a whole?

One might think Tchaikovsky is accessible music, but that it does not represent the "pure classical experience" as it lacks the contrapuntal and harmonic complexity of "pure" classical music.

On the other hand, Beethoven might represent "pure" classical music, but this essence would escape the ears of general audiences since their ears would be preoccupied with the stark dynamic contrasts of the music.



The views expressed here do not necessarily represent my own.


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## 59540 (May 16, 2021)

BrahmsWasAGreatMelodist said:


> I think I get what he's asking. Hopefully this is more understandable to those in need of clarification:
> 
> What are some examples of one-minute "popular" (i.e. appealing to general audiences) classical excerpts which represent the "pure classical experience", in the sense that these excerpts convey to general/uninformed audiences the fundamental essence and complexity of classical music as a whole?
> 
> ...


Yes not entirely, to quote Ethereality.


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## BrahmsWasAGreatMelodist (Jan 13, 2019)

This is my view:

I think one of the most important aspects of classical music is (large scale) form. For that reason, I think excerpts taken out of context automatically fall short of encapsulating the "true classical experience". That's not to say you need to listen to a whole symphony to appreciate any of the music contained within it; movements often suffice.

Unless there is a one-minute miniature that qualifies I think it's a fruitless exercise.


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## Ethereality (Apr 6, 2019)

*@hammeredklavier* That's incredible to hear. Perhaps we'll bring more together elsewhere, as I don't over-import a subject centered around YouTube (for economic considerations I hope we could instead subscribe to this perspective in future realities) but I merely speculate over the absentness of this Socratic glue. This isn't necessarily a serious juncture.

*@BrahmsWasAGreatMelodist* Excellent response. It encompasses one fundamental flaw in promoting the genre. Edit: though I don't force this view. I think some like hammeredklavier have embraced many useful analytics on the opposite, and I don't imagine one like Mozart or _Brahms_ would trivialize musical details. My hope is we may one day find ourselves amongst many adoptees, in a separate hall of creative negotiation.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

Here's how I interpret the OP: 
"When non-classical music enthusiasts happen hear Beethoven's music, they're repulsed by his tendency to make dynamic extremes between softness and loudness. For us classical music enthusiasts, this musical philosophy of Beethoven's is not repulsive, but for non-classical music enthusiasts, it is. 
Non-classical music enthusiasts will find Tchaikovsky more accessible than composers of counterpuntal ingenuity, rococo, rhythm. The Tchaikovsky violin concerto is a work of counterpuntal ingenuity, rococo, rhythm, but it is still accessible enough to be used to convert/introduce non-classical music enthusiasts to classical music.
What other short examples of such accessible music (of more than 1 minute in length) can you think of? Ones we can use to convert/introduce them to classical music, so that they would hopefully become interested in more complex music later on."


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## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

I think we have a lot of data about which classical works (or excerpts) are popular. We can go back as far as to the late 18th/early 19th century and look which works were published in lots of easily accessible arrangements (such as piano, piano violin, later maybe brass band or whatever). For the time since the 1930s or so we could look at radio programs, use of classical in film, anthologies of popular classical music. 
I seriously doubt that we could improve on such data by making polls among a few dozen users of a forum, all of which are already into classical and might not care that much for the typical "Only classics you'll ever need" anthology. But apparently the Flower duet, Morning mood, Ave maria, Sabre dance, Wedding march, Pilgrims' chorus, flaxen-haired girl etc. that have been popular in such compilations since 50 years ago or more seem to fit the bill reasonably well.


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## VoiceFromTheEther (Aug 6, 2021)

Kreisler jr said:


> Flower duet, Morning mood, Ave maria, Sabre dance, Wedding march, Pilgrims' chorus, flaxen-haired girl etc. that have been popular in such compilations since 50 years ago or more seem to fit the bill reasonably well.


Thanks for cracking me up. I followed the list and imagined myself confused as to what sort of mood should I be in after hearing Ave Maria followed by Sabre Dance :lol:


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## Ethereality (Apr 6, 2019)

The between facts are true, but they aren't comporting to any presented forum preferences, so they're of less value to serious examination and contemplation than say, reasons for my third post. In one example, one Joe may pass by players in the middle of the Funeral March of the Eroica, and notice something unusual and curious. I don't claim a single spectrum of pop -- classical, rather, some cases can be made with both solutions so I wonder. Hammered and I highlighted one solution of the _dance_ narrative, utilizing perhaps dual-point counter and clever rhythms, as both are clearly audible.

Something primeval in evolutionary stages like this stood clearly out as creative and fun when I first began hearing music, so it is one subjective forum-centric angle: by that I'm not appealing to popular preference like the middle facts there. I'm speaking for myself, which is only a bit more relevant to our community as a whole. What are the closest connections we may draw to introductory reportoire? I think I posited one solution: it is briefness in form, only _directly_ disregarding our premise of the errander. So if we have the value of a constant now, perhaps we need not to repeat calculating for it? Just test it.


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## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

Almost all the pieces from your third post are frequently found on such anthologies, like "Best of classics". The possible exception might be Beethoven's 9th, scherzo, but that was used in "Clockwork Orange" over 50 years ago.


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## jegreenwood (Dec 25, 2015)

BrahmsWasAGreatMelodist said:


> I think I get what he's asking. Hopefully this is more understandable to those in need of clarification:
> 
> What are some examples of *one-minute "popular" (i.e. appealing to general audiences) classical excerpts* which represent the "pure classical experience", in the sense that these excerpts convey to general/uninformed audiences the fundamental essence and complexity of classical music as a whole?
> 
> ...


The Minute Waltz?

Seriously, the "pure classical experience" almost by definition requires more than a minute's listening. And an excerpt, especially one that brief, eliminates the possibility of understanding the architecture of the work. It's like judging a work based on Amazon's samples.

OK - how about Bach's Two Part Invention No. 4. Schiff gets it done in 44 seconds. Actually better yet would be a Chopin Prelude.


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## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

I think one minute is an unrealistic restriction. Even shortish songs, dances etc. are often 2-3 min. 
And while there are of course complete inventions or fugues in 1-2 minutes, sonatas movements in maybe 2-3 min that could give an idea of complex structures, I'd suspect that they would not work so well. These would be densely structured and quickly developing movements and newbie listeners would usually not be able to follow this better than music that takes more time to unfold and is more redundant. If you want to get more than just a nice exuberant flash from a 1 min invention you have to pay very close attention, basically go through bar by bar.
One of the most popular Chopin Etude is the slowish and lyrical op.10 Nr. 3 and the most popular prelude, the "raindrop" D flat major by far the broadest in op.28.


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