# Have the first versions you heard remained the definitive ones?



## Steve Wright (Mar 13, 2015)

When it comes to your favourite music, have you found that the first versions you heard (or got to know, at any rate) have stayed with you as favourites - because they became the way you wanted to hear that music? Became the way it sounded in your head?
For me, a few performances have become kind of set in stone as the way I want to hear these pieces. But I am wondering if I am missing out on even better / refreshingly different versions of these:
Gorecki 3: Dawn Upshaw
Sibelius Violin Concerto: Vengerov / Barenboim
Schubert Quintet: Alban Berg/Schiff
Brahms Symphonies: Karajan (and I've got the 1980s versions which, I think, are not supposed to be the best)
Schumann Waldszenen: Pires

About to get to know the Beethoven Sonatas in the company of Claudio Arrau. Wonder if he will become my benchmark...


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## Celloman (Sep 30, 2006)

To date, the only audio recording of _The Dream of Gerontius_ I have heard is the Barbirolli with Janet Baker and Richard Lewis. This was my favorite piece for some years and I grew so comfortable with the recording that I never had the motivation to try a different one.

Yes, I know that Kim Borg's performance is considered sacrilege. In a strange way, I still enjoy it because it was a part of my first experience with this piece. (Don't tell anyone I said that!)


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## Weston (Jul 11, 2008)

I would say this is true only if the first version I hear of the piece captivates me. There are some first hearings that do very little for me, and then I am won over by a more moving version, often a recommendation from someone here.


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## Triplets (Sep 4, 2014)

I call it musical imprinting. Frequently, it is the case that the first version I hear of a work remains my favorite. The Francescatti recordings of the Bruch and Sibelius VC are one serious case in point


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

No. I remember as a kid hearing Heifetz' performance of the Sibelius Violin Concerto with Hendl/Chicago thinking it was definitive, until I heard Mutter/Previn.

However as the same kid, I heard the Prokofiev Piano Concerto No. 3 with Cliburn/Chicago/Hendl, and Tchaikovsky Piano Concerto No. 1 with Cliburn/Kondrashin thinking both were definitive, and to this day, for me, they are!


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## Bruce (Jan 2, 2013)

Often this happens. If I want to break the imprinting up, I find listening to several different recordings by different artists usually works. This way, certain aspects of a work stand out, and when I go back to the version I first heard, those aspects are lacking. 

this only works with oft-recorded works, though.


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## Saintbert (Mar 12, 2015)

There is an affinity there, like the way I'm drawn to Brendel's take on the Beethoven piano sonatas or Vänskä's first Sibelius cycle. But it would be hard to think of a definitive version. The music is something ethereal and something beyond, and I enjoy different interpretations.


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## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

Not always; my first version of Mahler's First was this mono recording with Bruno Walter and the NY Philharmonic:










I enjoyed it thoroughly and still do, but now also cherish versions by Bernstein and Tennstedt which are very different from Walter's interpretation.

Great music can withstand many different perspectives and hold up well.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

This was often true for me when I was first getting into music. I found that as I gained musical knowledge and a more discriminating ear I could hear even first exposures critically, as music above and beyond the particular performance I was hearing, and so not become attached to that version.


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## Vaneyes (May 11, 2010)

No, far from it.


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

I am not sure that I ever thought in terms of definitive and I am still rather queasy with that term. As I learned more about pieces and recordings, I found that some of my early purchases were indeed definitive (e.g. Callas' _Norma_) or at least generally considered to be very good (Klemperer's _Missa Solemnis_). What is more to the point is that I quickly became quite selective in buying what I felt were performances that mirrored my views of a piece, a majority of which I still feel strongly about. Having said that, it doesn't preclude new recordings coming along which showed me new and even more interesting views of various works (e.g. Blomstedt's SFSO Nielsen cycle).


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## brotagonist (Jul 11, 2013)

Like Celloman and Weston, or a synthesis of what they said  if the first version I hear satisfies me, then I tend to get hooked on it and have little motivation to buy another version. I might listen on YT, if a performance is discussed here on TC, but, unless I feel that the version I purchased is grossly outclassed, I will be fine with my original choice.

I have an increasing number of pieces in my collection for which I do own multiple versions, but the originals still satisfy me. There have only been a handful of instances where I was so disappointed with my original version, that I pawned it.


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## donnie a (Jan 15, 2015)

Yes, this has often happened with me. Not always, but frequently, especially if the first one is a really good recording. Once I get used to the interpretive details, I miss them when they're not there.

It also happens sometimes that I _think_ a recording is imprinted and will always be the best for me-but when I go back and actually hear it again after several years, it is a disappointment. Case in point: Stokowski's Shostakovich 5th.


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## Albert7 (Nov 16, 2014)

Flux Quartet version of Morton Feldman's String Quartet 2 was the first version I heard and even though I sampled out the Ives Quartet version later on, the Flux remains the way that Feldman ought to be played. Slow cooked and lots of good A1 sauce.


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## brotagonist (Jul 11, 2013)

Albert7 said:


> Slow cooked and lots of good A1 sauce.


Blimey! It should be HP Sauce :lol:


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## brotagonist (Jul 11, 2013)

Becca said:


> I am not sure that I ever thought in terms of definitive and I am still rather queasy with that term. As I learned more about pieces and recordings, I found that some of my early purchases were indeed definitive (e.g. Callas' _Norma_) or at least generally considered to be very good (Klemperer's _Missa Solemnis_). What is more to the point is that I quickly became quite selective in buying what I felt were performances that mirrored my views of a piece, a majority of which I still feel strongly about. Having said that, it doesn't preclude new recordings coming along which showed me new and even more interesting views of various works (e.g. Blomstedt's SFSO Nielsen cycle).


That sums up everything for me, Becca.

I find that what you said about performances mirroring your views of a piece adds something new to the discussion: there is more than just imprinting at work.


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## Nereffid (Feb 6, 2013)

I haven't been particularly loyal to first-owned recordings. In fact I like having the option of hearing things several ways; sometimes one sounds righter than the others, but other times a different one is preferable. If I do serious (blind) comparative listening I've found it hard to choose a favourite among readings that are quite different from one another. So I don't buy the whole "definitive recording" business either.


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

The first 100 CD's or so I bought in the late 80s were rather haphazard choices (before internet, and I had not subscribed to magazines yet). Some were lucky choices (e.g. Mahler's song cycles and Schubert's Winterreise, both with Fischer-Dieskau), some have had to go (e.g. Levine's Mahler 9, Schuberts Schwanengesang with Prey).


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## Blancrocher (Jul 6, 2013)

I'm at risk of developing a brain aneurysm when I hear anyone aside from Sviatoslav Richter play a couple Schubert sonatas, performances that have been ingrained in me since early youth, but that's the exception to the rule--I'm always on the lookout for an upgrade or else just something different for the sake of variety. Not many of the albums I acquired in my first years of collecting remain with me.


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## ptr (Jan 22, 2013)

I don't believe in "holy cows", the more I learn about a musical work, the more I like/enjoy/love to explore different/new interpretations. I'm often more cock sure about what I don't like then what I sure I like and I hope that I'm always open to new developments!

/ptr


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## Vesteralen (Jul 14, 2011)

I've been past that reaction for many years, but there was a time when I became absolutely rooted to certain tempi in particular. I can remember with the Brahms symphonies - I purchased a really cheap set of them back in 1970 conducted by Wolfgang Sawallisch. I liked the playing and recording of many other sets I heard after that, but if the conductor took anything at a different tempo I could not stand it.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

One performance I heard when I was a kid that I love to this day is Heifetz' performance of Lalo's Symphonie Espagnole.
I've never heard a better one though Francescatti's comes close.


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## Silkenblack (Apr 12, 2013)

My first Sibelius's Tapiola was by Tauno Hannikainen with London Symphony Orchestra. That danger and almost cubistic crudeness of performance defines it every time. I might be wrong though.


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## Templeton (Dec 20, 2014)

I am fortunate, in that the first version that I heard of Beethoven's 7th Symphony, was Carlos Kleiber and the Vienna Philharmonic. As such, whilst I have listened to many other versions subsequently, I find it difficult to imagine that Kleiber's will ever be bettered, at least in my lifetime.


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## joen_cph (Jan 17, 2010)

Vaneyes said:


> No, far from it.


Same here. 
The "Emperor" concerto with Kempff/Leitner is one exception, but it is not due to lack of comparisons & for specified reasons .
Also: Messiah/Richter, English language version/DG.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

As a kid, the first performance of the Brahms First Symphony I bought was an LP with the Boston Symphony under Charles Munch.

Still my favorite version today. I repurchased it on CD.


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## Headphone Hermit (Jan 8, 2014)

The common themes here seem to be:
- the more experienced listeners recognise that there can be many great preformances of a particular piece of music
- the first-acquired recording is seldom ingrained to be the best-regarded one (though there can be a strong affective response to the first-acquired recording)
- there was a lot of 'chance' in whether the first-acquired recordings were 'any good' - with experience in buying, considering reviews, knowing how to listen etc many of us become more discriminating in our choices
- there's an awful lot of enjoyment in finding alternative recordings


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## brotagonist (Jul 11, 2013)

I think one needs to separate music consumers into two groups in order to accurately assess the responses and habits of listeners:

a) those who purchase recordings and make a financial investment in collecting music; and

b) those who use free or monthly subscription download or streaming services that permit them to access vast catalogues of (nearly) every recording imaginable.

For the first group, the ever present question is: Should I spend these $10 on a recording of a work I want to add to my collection, or should I get (yet) another recording of a work I already know and have a recording of? How you answer this question depends on how much excess money you have available to bury in your collection; and how large your collection already is and whether you have already collected pretty much every work you want to buy or not.

For the second group, there is no need to fixate on any composer, work or performance, as there is no additional cost associated with exploring.

I tend to see the first type of listener as someone who values certain works and likes to savour them—music is a set of discoveries; and the second type of listener as someone who is constantly drifting from one interest to the next, without the motivation or need to make choices—music is an endless flow.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

The first performance of the Tchaikovsky Violin Concerto I bought was Heifetz/Chicago/Reiner and to this day, for me, this performance has never been surpassed.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

Yes for 
Fricsay's Beethoven's Ninth
Ormandy's Beethoven's Missa Solemnis
probably some others, can't think of them now.

My first Messiah (Westenburg) remains a favorite but not necessarily the favorite among the six I own.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

The first performance I ever heard of Beethoven's greatest composition, the Missa Solemnis was the famous Klemperer version.

It remains for me, unsurpassed. A towering performance!


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## Haydn man (Jan 25, 2014)

brotagonist said:


> I think one needs to separate music consumers into two groups in order to accurately assess the responses and habits of listeners:
> 
> a) those who purchase recordings and make a financial investment in collecting music; and
> 
> ...


That's an interesting observation and made me think.
I seem to be using a hybrid of the two systems. Method 'a' describes my natural approach and taking care with purchases, reading reviews etc made them seen definitive to me and I would very rarely consider buying another version.
Use of streaming services has resulted in me exploring not only more widely but also in more depth. Some of those cherished definitive performances of old are now less so, with so many listening choices available. I love my original Haydn set by Dorati but have now heard diverse alternatives with HIP performances, that have lead me to question many of my previous judgements.
I think method 'b' may well be taking over for me.
Oh and let's not forget, the cost of has dropped dramatically over the years making multiple purchases less of an extravagance


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## michaels (Oct 3, 2014)

For me not necessarily the first heard, but quite often, the first performed (depending on the conductor/director). In particular when younger and you rehearse repeatedly, you either gain a fondness, or a deep hatred for elements of it, and I've even found that hatred has later turned to a deep love in some cases.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

When I was a kid I bought Brahms Fourth Symphony with Charles Munch/Boston Symphony. It was an LP.

Last year I re-bought it on CD. It is not only the finest performance I've ever heard of Brahms' finest symphony, the sound ("Living Stereo", RCA) puts many digital recordings to shame!


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## D Smith (Sep 13, 2014)

Similar to hpowders, the first version of Brahms 2nd I heard was by Munch/BSO and remains my favorite. Same with Franck's Symphony performed by Monteux and Beethoven's 9th performed by Karajan (1963). The opposite is also true where I've found superior performances of works I've known for a long time (recently, from recommendations on this forum). However, I've learned never to call any performance 'definitive' as that's impossible to prove and remains just one's personal opinion.


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

The Rubenstein/Leinsdorf set of the Beethoven piano concertos was my first set
and still my favorite.


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## donnie a (Jan 15, 2015)

brotagonist said:


> I think one needs to separate music consumers into two groups in order to accurately assess the responses and habits of listeners:
> 
> a) those who purchase recordings and make a financial investment in collecting music; and
> 
> ...


That is indeed an interesting observation. I am (or have been until now) firmly in the first group. Maybe that's why I've always preferred to own a copy of the work rather than just have it available by subscription.

But I'm interested in dabbling with a subscription or streaming service, just for exploration. Have the pros/cons of different ones been discussed anywhere?


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

As a kid, I liked to listen to my father's LP of Pierre Monteux/SF Symphony in the Franck Symphony in D minor.
To this day, it's still my favorite version.


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## realdealblues (Mar 3, 2010)

Some yes, some no. It's kind of a tricky question. I think it partially depends on whether the 1st recording heard was bad/ok/good/great/excellent to begin with. Of course, I can't always remember the 1st recording I heard of certain works either. Another part lies in how much difference you allow for interpretation.

For instance, my first Beethoven Symphony Cycle was Klemperer. To me it's still one of the greatest cycles in history, but I also believe there are different viewpoints that can be applied to Beethoven and some depend on my mood. If I want lean, high energy Beethoven I'll throw on Toscanini. If I want traditional Germanic readings I might go with Wand or Blomstedt. If I want more of a majestic approach I might listen to Bohm. If I want high speed excitement using the metronome markings than I will listen to Chailly. If I want Beethoven full of passion and love I might grab Bernstein. If I want highly polished I might grab Karajan. If I want a moving mountain of granite I'll listen to Klemperer. They all work in my mind so depending on what I'm in the mood for my listening will change.

But if I think back the first recording I heard of Beethoven's 5 Piano Concertos were from Barenboim/Klemperer. Now when I look back they were "good" but not really great and I much prefer the excellent Fleisher/Szell or Rubinstein/Leinsdorf. I may pop in the Barenboim/Klemperer recording just to hear something different someday but I could honestly probably go the rest of my life without hearing them again.

The first recording I heard of Bach's Goldberg Variations was Glenn Gould's 1981 remake. I've probably heard 30 recordings since and I still consider it excellent and on most days it remains my personal favorite, but I also like Hewitt and Perahia and Gould's 1955 recording because I consider them all to be excellent.

There are also some works I only have heard one recording of and don't feel the need to buy another. I'm happy with the performance and interpretation and/or it might not be one of my favorite works, but just something I like to occasionally hear.

There's quite a few variables for me. There are a lot of recordings that I heard first and I still love because they were exceptional recordings. Others were just ok and when I heard something that was truly amazing it was replaced.


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## science (Oct 14, 2010)

Some cases where the first version has "imprinted" and remained my favorite in spite of others I've heard: 

- Brahms: Ein deutsches Requiem, op. 45 - Klemperer
- Chopin: Nocturnes - Rubinstein 
- Crumb: Black Angels - Kronos Quartet
- Golijov: The Dreams and Prayers of Isaac the Blind - Kronos Quartet
- Mozart: Requiem in D minor, K 626 - Karajan 1962 unremastered

Some cases where it has not happened: 

- Bach: Das Wohltemperierte Klavier - Tureck --> Gould --> Schiff 
- Bach: Violin Concertos, Double Concertos - Grumiaux --> either Fischer or Podger/Manze 
- Bartók: String Quartets - Hungarian SQ --> Takács SQ
- Bizet: L'Arlésienne Suites; Carmen Suites - Dutoit --> Paray 
- Messiaen: Quatuor pour la Fin du Temps; Theme and Variations - Loriod --> Tashi

Well, that is enough!


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## JACE (Jul 18, 2014)

When I was in college about 25 (!) years ago, I took a "Music Appreciation" course. I'd dabbled with listening to classical music before taking the course, but the class boosted my interest far beyond what it had been. I had a great professor, and her enthusiasm and insight made it one of my most memorable college courses.

As part of the course, we were required to buy a set of recordings. It looked like this:










This box set drew from the Columbia catalog, and I've been amazed by how many of these recordings made a lasting impression on me. Several of them are still some of my all-time favorites. For example, the box included:

- Ormandy's "Putnam's Camp, Redding, Connecticut" from _Three Places in New England_ -- My introduction to Ives!!! 
- Bernstein's recording of Liszt's _Les Preludes_ and excerpts from Berlioz's _Symphonie fantastique_
- Boulez's recording of Debussy's _Prélude à l'après-midi d'un faune_ and Stravinsky's _Le Sacre du printemps_
- Walter's recording of Brahms' Second Symphony (it may have only been excerpts)
- Szell's recording Mozart's 21st Piano Concerto with Robert Casadesus

So I think first impressions -- or the idea of "imprinting" -- are indeed real. But I also think that these also happened to be extraordinarily good recordings. And that's always a going to be very significant part of the equation too.


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

The first recording of Rachmaninoff's Second Symphony I sort of owned (it actually belonged to a public library, I think, but I still have it ) was the infamous cut version, with William Steinberg and the Pittsburgh Symphony Orchestra on vinyl. When I finally listened to it with a score, I figured out what was missing. The performance itself was good, but to this day the complete version of the symphony sounds flabby to me. I'm not sure if imprinting is part of this effect, since I still really do believe some of the cuts improve the work.

My experience in my more naive days was sometimes failing to recognize the value of a work if my first encounters were with poor interpretations. Then I would hear it done "right" and suddenly decide it was a work of genius. Kind of the reverse of the imprinting thing maybe?


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## Albert7 (Nov 16, 2014)

The first version of Steve Reich's Different Trains with the Kronos Quartet that I heard is still my favorite version despite having seen more versions on YouTube.


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## Octo_Russ (May 11, 2010)

The first version of Brahms First Symphony i heard was by Giulini, and he plays the main melody in the finale REALLY slow, but not knowing any different i thought it sounded fantastic, i came to learn it's meant to be played faster, and i can certainly see how that fits in with the structure of the piece, but still to this day i feel that somehow Giulini is "right", i can't get the way i fell in love with this music out of my head!.


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## ArtMusic (Jan 5, 2013)

One of the first versions of Bach's famous Brandenburg Concerto that I listened to which still remains my favorite is by Musica Antiqua of Koln.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

D Smith said:


> Similar to hpowders, the first version of Brahms 2nd I heard was by Munch/BSO and remains my favorite. Same with Franck's Symphony performed by Monteux and Beethoven's 9th performed by Karajan (1963). The opposite is also true where I've found superior performances of works I've known for a long time (recently, from recommendations on this forum). However, I've learned never to call any performance 'definitive' as that's impossible to prove and remains just one's personal opinion.


Glad to hear it!! Confirmation is always a good thing!! :tiphat:


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Tchaikovsky Piano Concerto No. 1, Oscar Levant, from my father's LP collection. I loved it and considered it the best performance, until I heard the Cliburn/Kondrashin, which to me is now the definitive performance.


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## science (Oct 14, 2010)

It's hard for me to imagine a definitive performance of Tchai 1. I've heard eight out of dozens... I'm no expert, but for me Argerich/Kondrashin and Richter/Karajan are up there with Cliburn.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Accompanying Van Cliburn's performance of the Prokofiev Third Piano Concerto was the MacDowell Second Piano Concerto which I never heard before as a kid. It quickly became a favorite. Van Cliburn's remains the best performance for me all these years later.


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## DiesIraeCX (Jul 21, 2014)

Karajan's 1963 Beethoven symphony cycle was my very first classical recording. The only one that remained somewhat definitive _for me_ is the Ninth, and even then, Fricsay's Ninth is pretty much tied with it. For the other symphonies, I have found favorites from other conductors, Gardiner, Zinman, and Karajan are pretty much tied (1, 2, 4, 8), C.Kleiber (5, 7), Bernstein/NYP (3), Walter (6).

My first recording of LvB's piano sonatas were by Kempff, they have been supplanted by Maurizio Pollini. My first recording of the string quartets was by Quartetto Italiano, but the Takacs is my undisputed favorite now.

My first recording of Schubert's 9th and and Brahms' 1st (Josef Krips and Karajan 60s, respectively) have remained my favorites. My first Brahms 4th was by Karajan but was easily overthrown by Kleiber's.

I can't imagine anyone overtaking Rafael Kubelik's Mahler 1, it's absolutely perfect. I recently was won over by Bernstein's Vienna Mahler 6th, I enjoyed it as much as Boulez's. I'd say they're tied, complete opposite ends of the spectrum as far as interpretation goes, but I like that!


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## Lord Lance (Nov 4, 2013)

DiesIraeVIX said:


> Karajan's 1963 Beethoven symphony cycle was my very first classical recording. The only one that remained somewhat definitive _for me_ is the Ninth, and even then, Fricsay's Ninth is pretty much tied with it. For the other symphonies, I have found favorites from other conductors, Gardiner, Zinman, and Karajan are pretty much tied (1, 2, 4, 8), C.Kleiber (5, 7), Bernstein/NYP (3), Walter (6).
> 
> My first recording of LvB's piano sonatas were by Kempff, they have been supplanted by Maurizio Pollini. My first recording of the string quartets was by Quartetto Italiano, but the Takacs is my undisputed favorite now.
> 
> ...


Which Bernie Mahler 6 - Unitel or DG?


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## DiesIraeCX (Jul 21, 2014)

Lord Lance said:


> Which Bernie Mahler 6 - Unitel or DG?


Deutsche Grammophon


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## aajj (Dec 28, 2014)

Klemperer & the Philharmonia Orchestra's 1960 recording of Schubert's 9th Symphony was my first hearing and remains my favorite, despite plenty of competition.

Walter & Columbia performing Mozart's late symphonies remain unbeatable despite no end of formidable competition, in particular the G Minor; I have never heard another performance of the Andante that touches this one. 

Mackerras & Vienna's 1980 recordings of Janacek's Sinfonietta & Taras Bulba. 

Berg's Violin Concerto: Kyung Wha Chung, Solti & Chicago.

Prokofiev's 1st & 3rd Piano Concertos: Graffman / Szell / Cleveland.


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## Lord Lance (Nov 4, 2013)

DiesIraeVIX said:


> Deutsche Grammophon


Well, I might listen to it, then! Thanks for the heads up, DIVIX!


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