# Vivaldi's lost masterpiece is found in library archives!



## Carpenoctem (May 15, 2012)

> In a development described by music experts as "a bombshell in the world of Baroque opera", a new version of Vivaldi's opera Orlando Furioso has been discovered, 270 years after his death.
> 
> The manuscript has been dated to 1714, 13 years before Vivaldi composed his later masterpiece. It contains as many as 20 new arias, never heard before - all composed around the time that Vivaldi was also working on The Four Seasons, said to be the most-recorded piece of classical music in history.


http://www.guardian.co.uk/music/2012/jul/15/orlando-furioso-vivaldi-1714-version

Great news!


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## Cnote11 (Jul 17, 2010)

I wouldn't mind new Vivaldi one bit!


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

More food for me.


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## Orpheus (Jul 15, 2012)

Sounds like great news for Vivaldi fans! 

One thing I couldn't help noticing when I read the article, though, was this:



> The music, though, is completely different. The role of Orlando, for example, is sung by a baritone in the 1714 work and a mezzo-soprano in the 1727 version.


A mezzo-soprano, taking a male lead role, in Italian opera, in 1727? REALLY? This revelation sounds like a far bigger rewrite of musical history than the finding of the manuscript!

I believe the word the reporter was looking for (without any success, because it's hard to find something when you don't even know you're missing it) was "Castrato". Doubtless the role would usually be taken by a female NOW due to our strange modern squeamishness about cutting off the documents of young lads to keep them singing high, However, her evident lack of basic knowledge does not exactly inspire confidence in the rest of her article. It's not the sort of mistake someone with even rudimentary knowledge of Baroque opera would make.

Sometimes I wonder whether these supposed arts journalists are anything more than glorified regurgitators of press releases (whose actual knowledge and research of the topic maybe extends to looking up a few extra facts on wikipedia in their coffee break, that they can scatter through the forthcoming article with an air of authority).

*grumble, grumble*


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

I didn't know females sing those parts now. I thought countertenors did.


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## Kevin Pearson (Aug 14, 2009)

I'm pretty sure that traditionally women sang many male roles of that period.

Kevin


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## HarpsichordConcerto (Jan 1, 2010)

Nice article. But I think it's a bit of a clever marketing ploy by label Naïve (recording the complete surviving operas, and other of Vivaldi's works especially the concerti). Scholars already have this earlier version of _Orlando Furioso_ (RV 819) of 1714; the topic of the article, but until recently, its authorship was not fully ascertained, suspecting it might have been Vivaldi revising the work of another composer. So now it appears the scholars are happy to declare it was by Vivaldi. There are no recordings of it. According to the article, Naïve will release a new world premiere recording of it. Bring it on! I will buy one!

Vivaldi wrote another _Orlando Furioso_ (RV 728) more than ten years later ~1727. This later version shares a similar libretto as the earlier version but the music is completely different (or largely different) according to what I have read. This later version has already been recorded and released by Naïve and CPO. I have them both. A lovely work, full of rich Vivaldian-dramatic-Italianess.

Finally, to add to the "confusion", Vivaldi wrote another opera using "Orlando" as part of it title, _Orlando finto pazzo_ also of 1714. This is unrelated to both versions above. It appears to be composed before the first _Orlando_ (RV 819), and was rather unpopular, and so Vivaldi wrote RV 819 (or led scholars to hypothesize that RV 819 was a revision of another composer's work). _Orlando finto pazzo_ was been recorded and released by Naïve.

Anyway, I shall have all three!


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

Kevin Pearson said:


> I'm pretty sure that traditionally women sang many male roles of that period.
> 
> Kevin


I have never heard or seen a woman in a castrato role in a baroque opera, apart from specific famous arias from Handel operas played on the radio by a non HIP orchestra *shudders*. I have heard and seen countertenors in those roles _many_ times though and it confuses me to see you say that it has become traditional for women to sing castrato roles today.


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

The title role in 1727 was sung by a contralto, Lucia Lancetti. Don't forget that the lover role (which is traditionally the castrato role) is NOT Orlando, but Medoro, which WAS sung by a castrato. That would be why Orlando was a baritone in the 1714 version too. In the recent DVD of Orlando Furioso, Orlando was sung by a contralto and Medoro by a countertenor, the humane modern solution to the problem of producing adult male altos and sopranos.

So, Orpheus, your poor hapless arts journalist was right, as a cursory glance at wiki could tell you.


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## Orpheus (Jul 15, 2012)

I think the source of the confusion here is that after castrati went out of fashion around the early 1800s, the works that were written for them dropped out of the repertoire for a while, but then were revived (beginning I would guess around the 1860s or 70s). Since it was by then unfashionable to use castrati in opera, and there were very few around who could have taken the role by then in any case, the roles that formerly required them were taken by women. 

What we now call the countertenor voice was little agknowledged at the time in classical music (so far as I know its use was mainly confined to the very conservative Anglican sacred music tradition) and there was no appropriate training tradition for them either - countertenors of the required standard probably didn't exist if they wanted them. This situation continued until the first modern style countertenors - people like Alfred Deller - started to break through and establish themselves in the baroque repertoire, but this wasn't till at least the middle of the 20th century, and I believe there was quite a lot of resistance to begin with due to the use of women in those roles having become an established tradition in itself. 

Nowadays we have a lot of well-trained and skilled countertenors around - more than ever before I would suggest - and there is also a strong movement for "authentic" performances of early work. Countertenors are therefore very common: probably (ironically) only the most "traditionally" minded producers would consider casting a woman as the male lead. This wasn't the case until VERY recently though, I think that even 30 or 40 years ago, perhaps even less, most people would have been going to see baroque expecting to see a woman in a "breeches" role, rather than a countertenor. I might have to edit that earlier post of mine to clarify what I meant by "now" actually - that was a bit sloppy.


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## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

I love it when something like this happens - pity it's so infrequent. It's tantalising to think that there must be lots of other scores of equal or greater interest still hidden away in archives, vaults, attics, private collections &c. waiting to be (re)discovered. I remember reading about the excitement caused by the serendipitous unearthing of a copy of Berlioz' missing (assumed destroyed) Messe solennelle from 1824.


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## Lunasong (Mar 15, 2011)

I am so sad that no one reads the Opera forum, where I posted this news 24 hours prior to this post, with no responses. 
http://www.talkclassical.com/20337-new-version-vivaldis-orlando.html
Anyway how do you suppose "they" determine who gets to publish this new version? Will it be public domain? Who gets the money? 

The discovery of lost Vivaldi pieces is not unprecedented.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/music/201...certo-discovery-scotland?INTCMP=ILCNETTXT3487


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## Carpenoctem (May 15, 2012)

Sorry, I didn't see someone already posted this.


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## Orpheus (Jul 15, 2012)

mamascarlatti said:


> The title role in 1727 was sung by a contralto, Lucia Lancetti. Don't forget that the lover role (which is traditionally the castrato role) is NOT Orlando, but Medoro, which WAS sung by a castrato. That would be why Orlando was a baritone in the 1714 version too. In the recent DVD of Orlando Furioso, Orlando was sung by a contralto and Medoro by a countertenor, the humane modern solution to the problem of producing adult male altos and sopranos.
> 
> So, Orpheus, your poor hapless arts journalist was right, as a cursory glance at wiki could tell you.


Thanks, I wish you or another person who was knowledgable about Baroque opera had posted a similar elucidation before I started writing the earlier comment! Ah well, having taken the trouble to write it I'll leave it up (subject to editing) in case anyone finds it informative.

The cursory search you suggested (which yes, I didn't make to begin with) doesn't actually lead me to anything which suggests the role was specifically written to be sung by a female: it does however lead to the information that the singer you named, being particularly skilled at male roles, was chosen to save on the expense of a first rate castrato. This implies that the role would have defaulted to a castrato after all, had this specific singer not been available.

I'm rather doubtful that the journalist was making this fine distinction based on actual performance history though, especially since she doesn't appear to know the difference between a contralto and a mezzo.

I'm aware that it wasn't actually unheard of for women to play male roles at the time, but I've not heard of the serious male lead roles being written specifically for them, and it would surprise me if they were - can you or anyone else elaborate? I'm more familiar with the poem on which it was based than the opera, so had misled myself by assuming the Orlando role was somewhat more of a central role than it sounds like it is. My mistake there.


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

Lunasong said:


> I am so sad that no one reads the Opera forum, where I posted this news 24 hours prior to this post, with no responses.
> http://www.talkclassical.com/20337-new-version-vivaldis-orlando.html
> Anyway how do you suppose "they" determine who gets to publish this new version? Will it be public domain? Who gets the money?
> 
> ...


I was going to say something about you getting it first, but this thread title makes this relatively low key discovery much more exciting.


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## Lunasong (Mar 15, 2011)

Carpenoctem said:


> Sorry, I didn't see someone already posted this.


Is it because you don't read the OPERA forum????



ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> I was going to say something about you getting it first, but this thread title makes this relatively low key discovery much more exciting.


Darn! was it the use of "masterpiece" or the exclamation point?

I'm a bit amused that if you search this on Google News, it's apparent the story was broken by the _Guardian_, that bastion of arts information, which remains the only English-language report in results. The other language versions are directly derived from this original.


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## Carpenoctem (May 15, 2012)

Lunasong said:


> Is it because you don't read the OPERA forum????


I didn't see you posted this article already, what's the big deal?

Is this some kind of race?

People have seen it, commented on it, that's the purpose isn't it? Get over it.


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## Lunasong (Mar 15, 2011)

Awaiting your comments. Is this "great news" because it is attributed to Vivaldi instead of Ristori?


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

Carpenoctem said:


> I didn't see you posted this article already, what's the big deal?
> 
> Is this some kind of race?
> 
> People have seen it, commented on it, that's the purpose isn't it? Get over it.


On TC it _is_ a race.


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

Orpheus said:


> The cursory search you suggested (which yes, I didn't make to begin with) doesn't actually lead me to anything which suggests the role was specifically written to be sung by a female: it does however lead to the information that the singer you named, being particularly skilled at male roles, was chosen to save on the expense of a first rate castrato. This implies that the role would have defaulted to a castrato after all, had this specific singer not been available.


I think you are right. Vivaldi on the whole seems to have written most of his male roles for castrati, although Tamerlano in Bajazet was written for a mezzo, Maria Maddalena Pieri. (but again, this is a tyrant first and lover second, not a "good" lover.) The title role is the father, so naturally a baritone, and the "good lover" a castrato.



> I'm aware that it wasn't actually unheard of for women to play male roles at the time, but I've not heard of the serious male lead roles being written specifically for them, and it would surprise me if they were


Handel, who was writing in England, seems to have given quite a few of his male roles to female singers - probably due to lack of avalability of excellent castrati. Here a a few:


Alcina: Bradamante was played by contralto Maria Caterina Negri

Serse: Arsamene played by "dark soprano" (Handel's words) Maria Antonia Marchesini, Amastre by contralto Antonia Merighi.

Admeto: Orindo played by contralto Anna Dotti.

Ariodante: Polinesso played by Maria Caterina Negri 

Partenope: Armindo played by contralto Francesca Bertolli

Agrippina: Ottone played by contralto Francesca Vanini-Boschi

In Orlando (the same story as Vivaldi's version), the roles were reversed, Orlando played by a castrato and Medoro by Francesca Bertolli. Bang goes my theory about lovers and castrati:lol:.



> I'm rather doubtful that the journalist was making this fine distinction based on actual performance history though, especially since she doesn't appear to know the difference between a contralto and a mezzo.


Well contralto and mezzo seems to be a bit of a fuzzy distinction, they often sing each other's roles, and contraltos are often described as mezzos - a case in point being Marie-Nicole Lemieux, the Orlando in the DVD I was referring to.


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

elgars ghost said:


> I love it when something like this happens - pity it's so infrequent. It's tantalising to think that there must be lots of other scores of equal or greater interest still hidden away in archives, vaults, attics, private collections &c. waiting to be (re)discovered. I remember reading about the excitement caused by the serendipitous unearthing of a copy of Berlioz' missing (assumed destroyed) Messe solennelle from 1824.


Please someone find some more Monteverdi operas. Three and a half and a lament is not enough.


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## Lunasong (Mar 15, 2011)

It's definitely of interest but we won't know if it's "interesting" until we hear it.

I have a problem with journalists tossing around the sobriquet "masterpiece" as easily as they anoint "superstars." Vivaldi may have had a very good reason why he didn't sign the manuscript, tossed it in a file, and completely rewrote it. Time will tell if this becomes a footnote only notable to musicologists.

The great news is that there's money to be made







as Naïve anticipates.


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