# If Mahler wrote an opera



## BenG (Aug 28, 2018)

I'm intrigued by this idea. If Mahler wrote an opera, what do you think it would be like? Similar to Wagner maybe. What do you think?


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## flamencosketches (Jan 4, 2019)

The closest thing we have is likely his completion of Weber's Die drei Pintos from very early in his career. I'm not sure if it's widely performed or not—anyone heard it?


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Well as he didn’t what is the point of speculating?


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## Fabulin (Jun 10, 2019)

I think that over an hour is more than enough of Mahler for one sitting. Now imagine 3 hours!

From a practical perspective, you can do an edit of some symphonic fragments and lieder, and get a Mahler opera.


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## Allegro Con Brio (Jan 3, 2020)

I always thought of the second movement of the 8th as an operetta, even though it’s probably closer to a cantata in conception. Part of me thinks he would have chosen an implausibly grand, over-the-top subject like a Homeric epic for his operatic subject matter, because that’s just the way he was.


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## MarkW (Feb 16, 2015)

Well, Das Klagende Lied and part two of the 8th Symphony are probably as close as we will ever get, and given that's as close as he got in 17+ hours of music and that he was an opera house director several times over, we have to assume he wasn't interested in adding to the ouvre. Faust was pretty much his favorite literature, and his partial setting in the 8th tells you where his inclinations lay.


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## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

DavidA said:


> Well as he didn't what is the point of speculating?


Thank you. All these "what if" questions are kind of silly.

But as to the question, yes, Mahler wrote an opera as mentioned, Die Drei Pintos. It's a wonderful, delightful opera. Without a score and having the proper materials at hand, it's impossible to tell where Weber ends and Mahler begins, it's that expertly scored and written. In my library I keep the recording in the Mahler section - it's where it belongs. It also helps to convince people that given the work Mahler did to bring this work to fruition, is the work of others to finish his incomplete 10th any less valid? Any dedicated Mahlerite needs to hear Die Drei Pintos, as well as Mahler's setting of the Bach suite and the Schubert arrangements.


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## Gray Bean (May 13, 2020)

I’m interested. Which recording do you have? (Of the Weber/Mahler)


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## Gray Bean (May 13, 2020)

DavidA said:


> Well as he didn't what is the point of speculating?


It's called a discussion thread.


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## consuono (Mar 27, 2020)

I don't think Mahler would've ever been as much "into" opera in the way Strauss was. What I wonder about is what Mahler would've done in "smaller" forms like chamber or solo instrumental music.


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## Fabulin (Jun 10, 2019)

MarkW said:


> Well, Das Klagende Lied and part two of the 8th Symphony are probably as close as we will ever get, and given that's as close as he got in 17+ hours of music and that he was an opera house director several times over, we have to assume he wasn't interested in adding to the ouvre. Faust was pretty much his favorite literature, and his partial setting in the 8th tells you where his inclinations lay.


He was very busy getting as many unsung contemporary works into the repertoire as possible. I doubt he had much motivation to compete himself...


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## MrMeatScience (Feb 15, 2015)

Mahler did take a crack at writing his own opera, but his attempts were all juvenilia and none of it survives. _Rübezahl_ was the name of one such attempt, from the late 1870s into the early 1880s. Mahler wrote the libretto, which (I think) still exists, but we have none of the music. Unfortunately he was generally pretty good about "covering his tracks," as it were. The early music of his that we have comes to us largely as a result of Mahler giving away manuscripts as gifts before he became dissatisfied with them (the discarded first movement of _Das Klagende Lied_, for instance).

Mahler's work in the opera house, particularly as an editor, is a research area of mine. He made extensive changes to most of the operas that he conducted, regardless of whether or not the work was in the canon already. He even composed a new scene for _Marriage of Figaro_! Certainly couldn't get away with that today. It's possible to glean some sense of what he valued in opera by examining his alterations to the works of others.


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## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

Gray Bean said:


> I'm interested. Which recording do you have? (Of the Weber/Mahler)


This one: There are two newer recordings, but this was the first and conducted by noted Mahler interpreter Gary Bertini. I don't know if it's even still avaiblable.


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## Gray Bean (May 13, 2020)

I have the one on Naxos. I didn't even know Bertini had recorded it. I love his Mahler cycle so I will look for his CD of this opera. Thanks!


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## SONNET CLV (May 31, 2014)

For his opera, Mahler would have demanded a grand work, something with physical and philosophical scope to match his musical imagination. I can think only of Marcel Proust's _À la recherche du temps perdu_ (_In Search of Lost Time_ or _Remembrance of Things Past_) having breadth enough to fulfill Mahler's operatic needs. Intriguingly, Proust didn't begin work on his novel until 1909 and Mahler could not have known of the book, which Proust labored on until his death in 1922. The subject matter and themes of _À la recherche..._ seem so fitting for a Mahler setting, as the novel traces experiences during the late 19th century to early 20th century, a time period familiar to Der Mahler.

For something Mahler actually _did_ know, I would cite the Goethe _Faust_, a huge work of its own in its complete form. We don't have the Mahler opera, which would have been a good one, but we do have the Eighth Symphony. I can live with that.


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