# Fake recordings!



## quietfire

Do you know of any fake recordings?

E.g. piano music created by a computer, or people claiming music that are played by other people.

Joyce Hatto is a famous one, but since listening to a wide range of music from Spotify, I suspect there are many more. Let's point them out!

Some I found:

*Peter Weiss* (WTC sounds very robotic, but for some reason attractive.)
*Claudio Colombo* (has a lot of recordings, even a YouTube channel, but in his live recordings he could only play very easy tunes, and badly at that!)


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## Bettina

I'm not sure if this is what you're looking for, but there's a fake CD of a Mahler violin concerto making the rounds on the internet. I think it originated as an April Fools joke several years ago. Here's a "review" of it: http://www.flyinginkpot.com/1999/04...-concerto-vengerovchicago-soboulez-dg-inkpot/


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## Klassik

I'm not sure if this is what you're looking for either, but it was said that some of the ultra budget CD labels of the 1980s/early 1990s would invent names for conductors/soloists. I've even heard claims that they would put the name of a real conductor (usually a lesser known conductor from Eastern Europe) on works performed by others.

I do have some Pilz (a label accused of doing such things) CDs from my father's collection. As far as I've been able to tell, all the conductors named on the CDs are real. Whether they actually conducted the music or not, well, it's hard to tell. As an aside, Anton Nanut, perhaps the most respected of the little known "ultra budget" CD conductors, passed away in January. RIP Mr. Nanut, the Bernstein/Karajan of cheapskates across the globe.


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## quietfire

Bettina said:


> I'm not sure if this is what you're looking for, but there's a fake CD of a Mahler violin concerto making the rounds on the internet. I think it originated as an April Fools joke several years ago. Here's a "review" of it: http://www.flyinginkpot.com/1999/04...-concerto-vengerovchicago-soboulez-dg-inkpot/


That's fine.

Just anything that is remotely fake and falsely advertised. Good old fun.


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## KenOC

There are some well-known fake composer attributions. Viola concertos by CPE Bach and JC Bach have been arranged for cello, and JC Bach's is actually quite popular. But both are 20th-century forgeries by violist Henri Casadesus. Another is Albinoni's well-known "Adagio," which made its discoverer some big bucks. Of course he didn't actually discover it, he wrote it!

Fritz Kreisler made several such forgeries in his day, though I think all have been found out by now.

Incorrect artist attributions are common as well, though maybe less so than they used to be. Some recently released composer-based MP3 compilations of piano music played by Dubravka Tomsic have been discussed on another site, where some feel they are actually played by other artists. In one case, using track timings, the "other artist" has been tentatively identified.


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## Bettina

P.D.Q. Bach is a fake composer, created by Peter Schickele. In that sense, all of his recordings could be considered fake. :lol:


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## KenOC

Accidental fake: Mozart’s 37th Symphony, identified from a manuscript in his own hand. It later turned out to be Michael Haydn’s 25th Symphony, which Mozart had copied with some changes for a concert in Linz. The hole in Mozart’s symphony numbers still exists.

I’ve always been amused that after the error was found in the 1890s by Breitkopf and Hartel, all the wise ones said, “Well, for stylistic reasons it’s obvious that it couldn’t be by Mozart!” Of course none of the large cranium guys said a word before the error was discovered. :lol:


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## Pugg

Bettina said:


> P.D.Q. Bach is a fake composer, created by Peter Schickele. In that sense, all of his recordings could be considered fake. :lol:


Did you ever heard them Bettina?


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## Klassik

So I did some more research about the fake Pilz/ultra budget CD conductors. It seems that Wikipedia has an entry about Alberto Lizzio, a fake conductor name used by ultra budget labels. Who wants to listen to "Lizzio" and see if they can determine who really conducted the music?


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## Bettina

Pugg said:


> Did you ever heard them Bettina?


I have heard some of them, and they're hilarious! I particularly enjoy the Notebook for Betty-Sue Bach, with its witty parodies of well-known pieces.


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## Pugg

Bettina said:


> I have heard some of them, and they're hilarious! I particularly enjoy the Notebook for Betty-Sue Bach, with its witty parodies of well-known pieces.


Hilarious is the right word, some shop assistant said ( when buying new equipment)
"You like classic, may I suggest this" and he put on a CD by P.D.Q
I am still laughing my socks off.


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## Klassik

I've done some more research about the use of pseudonyms in the classical recording industry. This entry has some interesting stuff about Alfred Scholz and his use of pseudonyms like the aforementioned Alberto Lizzio.

Pseudonyms were used by much more reputable labels as well. It seems that RCA used several different fake orchestra names on their budget RCA Camden LP series. I guess they wanted to use old recordings from famed orchestras without having to pay a royalty to the orchestras themselves. The VPO was called the Danube Symphony Orchestra, the LSO was called the Jewel Symphony Orchestra, and so forth. So, anyway, don't throw away that RCA Camden Mozart LP from the Danube Symphony Orchestra. It might actually be a Bruno Walter/VPO recording.


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## Animal the Drummer

More years ago than I like to contemplate, I saw an LP of Mozart's D minor piano concerto on which the orchestra was conducted by one Wilhelm Havagesse. I kid you not.


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## Klassik

Animal the Drummer said:


> More years ago than I like to contemplate, I saw an LP of Mozart's D minor piano concerto on which the orchestra was conducted by one Wilhelm Havagesse. I kid you not.


Who would have guessed that Wilhelm Havagesse was fake?! Apparently Maestro Havagesse came from the same mind as soprano Herda Wobbel. This Barrington-Coupe fellow seems like quite the shady character ala Alfred Scholz.


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## premont

quietfire said:


> Do you know of any fake recordings?


This is a common occurrence. Some of the recordings are stolen and maybe edited to hide the facts (e.g. Hatto), others are otherwise unavailable recordings, sometimes rather good, but sometimes very bad. I still own some recordings, where I work on finding the origin.


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## DavidA

Kreisler wrote a number of pieces for the violin, including solos for encores, such as "Liebesleid" and "Liebesfreud". Some of Kreisler's compositions were pastiches ostensibly in the style of other composers. They were originally ascribed to earlier composers, such as Gaetano Pugnani, Giuseppe Tartini and Antonio Vivaldi, and then, in 1935, Kreisler revealed that it was he who wrote the pieces. When critics complained, Kreisler replied that they had already deemed the compositions worthy: "The name changes, the value remains", he said.


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## DavidA

Klassik said:


> Who would have guessed that Wilhelm Havagesse was fake?! Apparently Maestro Havagesse came from the same mind as soprano Herda Wobbel. This Barrington-Coupe fellow seems like quite the shady character ala Alfred Scholz.


There was a whole load of such recordings on the 'Fidelio' label. They weren't actually fakes a la Joyce Hatto but they were recordings imported from the Eastern block and given fake names. But at 10 bob each they introduced me to some good music as a lad


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## DavidA

This guy Barrington-Coupe was obviously very talented as a producer. He released the Chopin-Godowsky studies under the name of his wife, Joyce Hatto, some of which were taken from the incredible recording by Marc-Andre Hamelin. However, they were so well doctored that even Hamelin didn't recognise it was him who was playing. Mind you, the critics should surely have twigged that a mortally ill woman in her 70s couldn't possibly have played these pieces!


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## Klassik

DavidA said:


> There was a whole load of such recordings on the 'Fidelio' label. They weren't actually fakes a la Joyce Hatto but they were recordings imported from the Eastern block and given fake names. But at 10 bob each they introduced me to some good music as a lad


Agreed. I inherited a lot of ultra bargain classical CDs and some of them aren't bad really. Some of these are probably fakes, but some are real Eastern European recordings. The audio quality isn't always great and sometimes they were faking digital recordings. Sometimes they let errors get on the disc when a better publisher would have spliced in a correction, but you can still enjoy the music.


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## Merl

Klassik said:


> Agreed. I inherited a lot of ultra bargain classical CDs and some of them aren't bad really. Some of these are probably fakes, but some are real Eastern European recordings. The audio quality isn't always great and sometimes they were faking digital recordings. Sometimes they let errors get on the disc when a better publisher would have spliced in a correction, but you can still enjoy the music.


Agreed, and there's some real gems in amongst the bargain basement CDs. On of the best I got hold of was Nanut's traversal of Beethoven's Seventh. Only the presto is average. The finale is an absolute cracker. Also on Prism there was Tchaikovsky's Rococo Variations, with Dmitry Ratushin (cello) & Philharmonica SO/Ivanenko. That's a super-sounding and well-played disc too. I bought both in a charity shop years ago for 20p each.


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## Klassik

Merl said:


> Agreed, and there's some real gems in amongst the bargain basement CDs. On of the best I got hold of was Nanut's traversal of Beethoven's Seventh. Only the presto is average. The finale is an absolute cracker. Also on Prism there was Tchaikovsky's Rococo Variations, with Dmitry Ratushin (cello) & Philharmonica SO/Ivanenko. That's a super-sounding and well-played disc too. I bought both in a charity shop years ago for 20p each.


Yes, this is quite true. I was listening to an ultra-budget LaserLight CD last night that has Tchaikovsky's Violin Concerto performed by Emmy Verhey and the Budapest Symphony Orchestra conducted by Arpad Joo. The performance and audio quality are quite good really. The CD also has Tchaikovsky's Piano Concerto #1 on there performed by Jeno Jando and the Budapest Philharmonic Orchestra conducted by Andras Ligeti. The audio and performance quality on the PC are not quite up to the standards of the VC, but it's still good enough I'd say. Of course, names like Jando, Joo, and Verhey aren't exactly nobodies so the quality shouldn't be totally surprising.

Like I said in an earlier post, Anton Nanut was the Bernstein, Solti, or Karajan for cheapskates. Unfortunately he passed away a couple of months ago, but he recorded some very fine performances that can be purchased for virtually nothing. The audio quality on these recordings aren't always very good, but sometimes they're pretty good. You can certainly put Nanut's name on the underrated conductor list IMO. I have at least one Nanut Beethoven recording, but I'll have to see if I have his 7th.


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## Oldhoosierdude

I bought this one and liked it quite a bit. Another poster posted a link about this conductor and fake credits. Really interesting.


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## Klassik

Oldhoosierdude said:


> I bought this one and liked it quite a bit. Another poster posted a link about this conductor and fake credits. Really interesting.
> View attachment 94334


Yeah, I have that fake CD, but it's under the Pilz label (a lot of these ultra bargain CDs got reissued under several different labels and sometimes they would use different fake conductor/orchestra names). It's really not that bad at all.

I found an old website from the 1990s that has some reviews of ultra bargain Pilz and Point Classics CDs. Some of these CDs have been published under different labels though. Not all of them are fake, but some of them are. Anyway, it might be worth reading that if you are a thrift store shopper so you know which cheap CDs to pick up and which to pass on. There's many more titles out there than the review has, but it's a good start if nothing else.

http://www.classicalnotes.net/columns/cheapweb.html


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## Oldhoosierdude

Thanks. It's good to know which of those are good recordings. I see those quite a.lot in the second hand stores. I steer away from them now and probably in the future. I kind of like to know who is really performing. But it is an interesting subject.


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## Vaneyes

More on Scholz, and others.

https://wiki.musicbrainz.org/Budget_recordings_of_Alfred_Scholz#cite_note-1

The Joyce Hatto swindle was the most extensive with top tier artists. I doubt there'll be another that matches. Knock on plastic.

It surprised me that no one other than William Barington-Coupe was named in the Hatto con. What about the company used for CD replication? A catalog of 119 CDs is not a small project. Are legitimacy, ethics of no concern in the replication industry?


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