# What is "large scale tonal organization?"



## LAS (Dec 12, 2014)

I found this sentence in some CD liner notes, "...shows the influence of Beethoven in its dramatic contrasts and its feeling for large scale tonal organization."

What does this mean?

TIA
LAS


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## MarkW (Feb 16, 2015)

Tonal organization is how key centers form, break apart, and reform in a way that makes structural sense in a piece. "Large scale" can mean within a movement (think of the first movements of the Eroica or the Ninth) or across an entire symphony. It can mean harmonic events going far afield and somehow being brought back home, or landing at the end on a different key than the original tonic, but still making sense because of how it got there. Most of these things are well thought out either during the planning process, or in the throes of composition and are seldom "just something that happens."


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## SONNET CLV (May 31, 2014)

Regardless of what the well-informed MarkW says, "large scale tonal organization" is simply the opposite of "small scale tonal organization". Or, the opposite of "large scale tonal disorganization." Or, the opposite of "large scale atonal organization". Or, ….


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

SONNET CLV said:


> Regardless of what the well-informed MarkW says, "large scale tonal organization" is simply the opposite of "small scale tonal organization". Or, the opposite of "large scale tonal disorganization." Or, the opposite of "large scale atonal organization". Or, ….


Quite right. Everything is the opposite of something. Or, nothing is the opposite of something. Or, anything is the opposite of something. Or. ...


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## premont (May 7, 2015)

SONNET CLV said:


> Regardless of what the well-informed MarkW says, "large scale tonal organization" is simply the opposite of "small scale tonal organization". Or, the opposite of "large scale tonal disorganization." Or, the opposite of "large scale atonal organization". Or, ….


Thanks for the clarification. :tiphat::lol:


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## Eva Yojimbo (Jan 30, 2016)

Woodduck said:


> Quite right. Everything is the opposite of something. Or, nothing is the opposite of something. Or, anything is the opposite of something. Or. ...


And we mustn't forget the opposite of opposite, which is identical to identical!


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## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

MarkW said:


> Tonal organization is how key centers form, break apart, and reform in a way that makes structural sense in a piece. "Large scale" can mean within a movement (think of the first movements of the Eroica or the Ninth) or across an entire symphony. It can mean harmonic events going far afield and somehow being brought back home, or landing at the end on a different key than the original tonic, but still making sense because of how it got there. Most of these things are well thought out either during the planning process, or in the throes of composition and are seldom "just something that happens."


Like Beethoven's 5th symphony, which begins in C minor and tries to get to C major (which happens once briefly in the second movement but backs off), then it finally does in the last movement. Is that a good example?


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

To me, "large scale tonal organization" means taking into account the overall "tonal orbit" that exists around the main key area. This chart of tonalities is from Schoenberg's "Structural Functions of Harmony." The functions are listed on top (dominant, subdominant, etc) and this is presented in an actual key, as an example.


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