# Economics of Downloading



## Triplets (Sep 4, 2014)

I don't download very much, but when I do, I have noted some oddities in the pricing schedule.
I was looking for a complete set of Bruckner Symphonies to load as mp3 to my phone. Several complete cycles are listed at 3-4 times the complete price of the equivalent CDs--and the CDs are in better sound.
While downloading the High res versions of Andriss Nelsons and the Boston sO Shostakovich cycle, the cost of the entire album if ordered as "Get the album" was more than twice higher the cost of ordering each track individually.
Classical downloads were reportedly down almost 20% in 2015. Does anyone in the business pay attention to these economics?


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

I've never acquired music through downloading, but isn't there a strong "convenience" feature for downloads compared to CD's?


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## Taggart (Feb 14, 2013)

Definitely an odd set up. I rarely buy downloads as such unless it's an out of print album only available on download or the artist only makes it available on download via something like CDBaby. What is fascinating is that Amazon offers Auto Rip which means I do have lots of downloads that I rarely listen to.


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## Triplets (Sep 4, 2014)

Bulldog said:


> I've never acquired music through downloading, but isn't there a strong "convenience" feature for downloads compared to CD's?


I guess that depends on how you look at it. For me, nothing could be more convenient that popping a CD into a player and hitting play.
Downloads require playback software, organizational software (usually the same), the need for back ups...Frequently there are format incompatibility issues, with higher res material only being available in Windows based (i.e., flac) formats, which then have to be converted to an Apply Friendly format if they are to be played from a Mac..They do take up less space, however. Si it depends upon your level of comfort with IT issues. If you just stick to mp3 quality, most of these issues go away


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## Pyotr (Feb 26, 2013)

I buy whatever's cheapest. Yea, I have noticed that sometimes the CD is cheaper than the download.


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## jailhouse (Sep 2, 2016)

Streaming is so obviously the future you should switch over now. In buying music you spend hundreds and hundreds. Spotify is 10 dollars a month, get it. Youtube is free, and you can often find people have uploaded the works with the score lined up so you can follow it. cant get THAT by buying it.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

jailhouse said:


> Streaming is so obviously the future you should switch over now.


The obvious future for all of us is death. But I don't necessarily advise switching over now.


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## violadude (May 2, 2011)

KenOC said:


> The obvious future for all of us is death. But I don't necessarily advise switching over now.


Okay, Debbie Downer


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

jailhouse said:


> Streaming is so obviously the future you should switch over now. In buying music you spend hundreds and hundreds. Spotify is 10 dollars a month, get it. Youtube is free, and you can often find people have uploaded the works with the score lined up so you can follow it. cant get THAT by buying it.


Never, I repeat: never.


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## jailhouse (Sep 2, 2016)

^Why not? I've spent so many hundreds on cds and they'll eventually degrade anyway. Never again. You can now stream in 320kbps or flac quality and have immediate access to all music. I don't see why anyone wouldn't. If you're looking for liner notes and stuff you can find all the essays you want about the music online too.


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## Richannes Wrahms (Jan 6, 2014)

We go on merely by hormonal impulse, any other point is a rationalisation.


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## Weird Heather (Aug 24, 2016)

I have gone over entirely to downloads. CDs take up too much physical space, and I live in an expensive residential market. I simply can't justify paying more rent for a second bedroom that I don't need just to store CDs that are inconvenient to access and play. When I lived in a cheaper city, I had an entire bedroom devoted to records and CDs, but when I moved, I realized that this was a luxury that I could no longer afford, so I got rid of a lot of stuff and made the decision to avoid acquiring more physical media, except when I desperately want something that is not available in digital form. Since then, I haven't bought any CDs or records, and I think I've only acquired two or three DVDs.

I have noticed that downloads are sometimes more expensive than CDs, and it simply doesn't make sense.  Sometimes, this has discouraged me from buying the recording in any form. The download seems like a ripoff, and I don't want to go to the trouble of acquiring and storing the physical media, so I just find something else to buy. Sometimes, I will even pay a little more for the download simply to avoid the inconvenience of having to order and then receive, rip, and store a CD.

As for formats, I have never had trouble with any DRM-free format. I won't buy downloads that have DRM because I don't want to risk losing access to the content some day. (I suppose cracking the DRM is an option, but I don't really want to deal with that any more than I want to deal with physical media.)

Hopefully some of the current problems with downloads will go away before long, and they will become an even better option. I would like to see PDFs of the liner notes included with more of them, and I would be happy if the pricing made more sense.


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## Triplets (Sep 4, 2014)

Weird Heather said:


> I have gone over entirely to downloads. CDs take up too much physical space, and I live in an expensive residential market. I simply can't justify paying more rent for a second bedroom that I don't need just to store CDs that are inconvenient to access and play. When I lived in a cheaper city, I had an entire bedroom devoted to records and CDs, but when I moved, I realized that this was a luxury that I could no longer afford, so I got rid of a lot of stuff and made the decision to avoid acquiring more physical media, except when I desperately want something that is not available in digital form. Since then, I haven't bought any CDs or records, and I think I've only acquired two or three DVDs.
> 
> I have noticed that downloads are sometimes more expensive than CDs, and it simply doesn't make sense. Sometimes, this has discouraged me from buying the recording in any form. The download seems like a ripoff, and I don't want to go to the trouble of acquiring and storing the physical media, so I just find something else to buy. Sometimes, I will even pay a little more for the download simply to avoid the inconvenience of having to order and then receive, rip, and store a CD.
> 
> ...


You have hit many of the essential points. Downloads take up much less space and depending upon your set up can be easier to access.. I will be retiring one day and probably moving to a smaller space in a nicer climate eventually and this is very much an issue..
The economics of this are just so confusing. Paying 3 to 4 times the price of a CD for an MP3 of the same recording? I'd rather 
Buy the CD, rip it, and toss it.
Streaming makes a lot of sense. I have written other threads here on streaming. Unfortunately I haven't found one service that fulfills all my requirements. My favorite is ClassicsOnline, but it misses the Universal Music Catalog, a significant omission. It also requires a Computer to be hooked into my stereo, since I don't prefer to use headphones.


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## Mal (Jan 1, 2016)

I've frozen my CD collection, selling the ones I don't really want to play any more, and doing serious comparative listening to "the best" on Spotify to find better performances, so I can sell even more CDs. Spotify is a total game changer, and it's a better game. You can instantly compare the pieces that various critics praise (or dispraise...) and immediately draw your own conclusions about the versions (and the often cloth-eared critics ).


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## DaveM (Jun 29, 2015)

jailhouse said:


> ^Why not? I've spent so many hundreds on cds and they'll eventually degrade anyway...


CDs will likely outlast your lifetime. My CDs from the early '80s are as good as the day they were purchased. In fact, my cassettes from that period are still fine, though rarely listened to.


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## DaveM (Jun 29, 2015)

Mal said:


> I've frozen my CD collection....


Best way to to make sure they don't degrade!


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## CDs (May 2, 2016)

For me downloading or streaming removes part of the joy of listening to music. I love sitting in from of my collection picking out CDs, putting them in my player and reading the booklets.
Plus when I listen to my collection no big corporation is spying in on my listening habits and tracking my every click. It's just me and the music.


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## senza sordino (Oct 20, 2013)

I don't know much about the economics of downloading, CD's, streaming and Youtube. I find it curious that most of the comments have been about what's most convenient and what's the cheapest for the consumer. But what about the producer and the artist? As consumers try to find ways to pay less, what happens to the royalties for the artist? I'm not talking about the highest paid musicians at the very top, they'll do fine, but the the journeyman performer. How much does the performer take in royalties when they sell a CD or sell a download compared with when someone streams their music or listens to a performance on Youtube?


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

CDs said:


> For me downloading or streaming removes part of the joy of listening to music. I love sitting in from of my collection picking out CDs, putting them in my player and reading the booklets.
> Plus when I listen to my collection no big corporation is spying in on my listening habits and tracking my every click. It's just me and the music.


Spot on, I like the booklets also.


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## Pyotr (Feb 26, 2013)

CDs said:


> For me downloading or streaming removes part of the joy of listening to music. I love sitting in from of my collection picking out CDs, putting them in my player and reading the booklets.
> Plus when I listen to my collection no big corporation is spying in on my listening habits and tracking my every click. It's just me and the music.


I like listening to CDs too, but I prefer to mix my own so I usually download and then burn. That way I get exactly what I want. Sometimes I'll put three different artists in the three movements of a concerto, because I don't like the way one does all three.


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## Triplets (Sep 4, 2014)

Pyotr said:


> I like listening to CDs too, but I prefer to mix my own so I usually download and then burn. That way I get exactly what I want. Sometimes I'll put three different artists in the three movements of a concerto, because I don't like the way one does all three.


I used to do that back in the cassette days. After a while I grew weary of the incoherent approach


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## jailhouse (Sep 2, 2016)

Everyone likes booklets. But you can find pdfs of the booklets if you're clever enough anyways..and read essays about each piece on wikipedia and other sites too.
and the internet gives you such an insane advantage in terms of what you can hear, and hear RIGHT NOW...as a music obsessed person i could never bring myself to pay thousands of dollars on cds in order to WAIT for them to arrive at my door at this point. I can just go to spotify and search for whatever recording i want, go to youtube if i want to see a matched up score version, or go to google and type "___________ rar" if its not anywhere else.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

jailhouse said:


> Everyone likes booklets. But you can find pdfs of the booklets if you're clever enough anyways..and read essays about each piece on wikipedia and other sites too.
> and the internet gives you such an insane advantage in terms of what you can hear, and hear RIGHT NOW...as a music obsessed person i could never bring myself to pay thousands of dollars on cds in order to WAIT for them to arrive at my door at this point. I can just go to spotify and search for whatever recording i want, go to youtube if i want to see a matched up score version, or go to google and type "___________ rar" if its not anywhere else.


Walk to a shop and buy them ................problem solved.


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## Triplets (Sep 4, 2014)

Pugg said:


> Walk to a shop and buy them ................problem solved.


Record shops have pretty much dissapeared on this continent, Pugg. I was in Vienna a few years ago and was delighted to find 3 or 4 just within the Ring, but I was in London&Paris last summer and barely saw any. I live in the 3rd largest city in the US and the only one worth a damn is the little shop at the Chicago Symphony. Perhaps you are more fortunate inthe Netherlands


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## jailhouse (Sep 2, 2016)

Pugg said:


> Walk to a shop and buy them ................problem solved.


1. theres no such thing as a cd store anymore
2. why would i walk when i can type for 5 seconds and listen to any version of any piece ever in the history of recorded music


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

jailhouse said:


> 1. theres no such thing as a cd store anymore
> 2. why would i walk when i can type for 5 seconds and listen to any version of any piece ever in the history of recorded music


The search is even better, I am in no hurry and if it takes somewhat longer, all the time in the world.


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## Mal (Jan 1, 2016)

CDs said:


> ... no big corporation is spying in on my listening habits and tracking my every click. It's just me and the music.


Why worry about Spotify's algorithms analysing your listening habits? They put the data to good use; I'm finding Spotify Discover a very interesting resource. Anyway, if you buy a CD they know your listening habits, and will no doubt try to sell you more CDs.


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## Triplets (Sep 4, 2014)

Mal said:


> Why worry about Spotify's algorithms analysing your listening habits? They put the data to good use; I'm finding Spotify Discover a very interesting resource. Anyway, if you buy a CD they know your listening habits, and will no doubt try to sell you more CDs.


It isn't just Spotify. I am finding it disconcerting to log on to Google or Amazon and be trying to look up something and suddenly be shown a bunch of advertisements based on a previous search


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## Mal (Jan 1, 2016)

senza sordino said:


> I don't know much about the economics of downloading, CD's, streaming and Youtube. I find it curious that most of the comments have been about what's most convenient and what's the cheapest for the consumer. But what about the producer and the artist? As consumers try to find ways to pay less, what happens to the royalties for the artist? I'm not talking about the highest paid musicians at the very top, they'll do fine, but the the journeyman performer. How much does the performer take in royalties when they sell a CD or sell a download compared with when someone streams their music or listens to a performance on Youtube?


Mozart didn't make any royalties for CDs, so why should journeymen musicians expect anything? They can earn money the same way as Mozart - by playing live. #

Then again, I feel I should give some reward to "the best", so I do pay for Spotify Premium. Over a lifetime I'm liable to listen to my favourite pieces many times, and not play the "so so" pieces again. In this way, the best musicians should make more money over time, perhaps as much as from a CD. Too often in the past, bad critics, bad musicians, and clever marketers conspired to claw money out of me for bad CDs. No longer! Performers make about 0.5 cent a stream.

Over a lifetime you may play a favourite piece 100 times, so that's 50 cents, multiplied by eight (two symphonies per disk = 8 tracks = 8 streams) that's $4, which seems "reasonable" for a performer's cut, compared to the CD cut. So, given that you'd want to play the piece 100 times, Spotify looks just as good as CD for great performers, but BAD for bad performers. This can only be good for art.


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## Wood (Feb 21, 2013)

Mal said:


> Mozart didn't make any royalties for CDs, so why should journeymen musicians expect anything? They can earn money the same way as Mozart - by playing live. #
> 
> Then again, I feel I should give some reward to "the best", so I do pay for Spotify Premium. Over a lifetime I'm liable to listen to my favourite pieces many times, and not play the "so so" pieces again. In this way, the best musicians should make more money over time, perhaps as much as from a CD. Too often in the past, bad critics, bad musicians, and clever marketers conspired to claw money out of me for bad CDs. No longer! Performers make about 0.5 cent a stream.
> 
> Over a lifetime you may play a favourite piece 100 times, so that's 50 cents, multiplied by eight (two symphonies per disk = 8 tracks = 8 streams) that's $4, which seems "reasonable" for a performer's cut, compared to the CD cut. So, given that you'd want to play the piece 100 times, Spotify looks just as good as CD for great performers, but BAD for bad performers. This can only be good for art.


So you are saying that a great performer is the one who is played the most? Surely you don't mean that, on a classical music site of all places.


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## Mal (Jan 1, 2016)

jailhouse said:


> 1. theres no such thing as a cd store anymore
> 2. why would i walk when i can type for 5 seconds and listen to any version of any piece ever in the history of recorded music


"No record shops" isn't a reason to stop when Amazon is a click away. And the suspense of waiting for the CD to arrive is lovely, as is the interaction with the nice postman . A drug user will make any excuse for perpetuating his irrational habit.

I think I mainly continued to collect CDs, when I should have stopped, because I was subject to the "sunk cost fallacy". This says that if you have invested an awful lot in something, you will continue to invest because stopping feels like you have wasted that massive investment. So you must buy that CD because you have spent £5000 on CDs; not buying that CD seems like abandoning your CD collection, which seems like burning that £5000! I would defend my purchases using all the excuses found in this thread: "pay the poor artist", "the clunk click of the CD player is lovely", "those sleeve notes are so important"., etc., etc.,... But digging deep i saw I was just being irrational, sunk in the sunk cost fallacy. No more CDs for me!


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## Mal (Jan 1, 2016)

Wood said:


> So you are saying that a great performer is the one who is played the most? Surely you don't mean that, on a classical music site of all places.


Why wouldn't you play your favourite performer of your favourite music more than others? My most played CDs are probably Karajan's '63 set of Beethoven's symphonies. Of course I play others, especially now I have Spotify, but over time I suspect Karajan's "top 5" in that box will get played the most.


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## CDs (May 2, 2016)

Mal said:


> Why worry about Spotify's algorithms analysing your listening habits? They put the data to good use; I'm finding Spotify Discover a very interesting resource. Anyway, if you buy a CD they know your listening habits, and will no doubt try to sell you more CDs.


I buy 99% of my CDs from a locally owned brick and mortar store so they don't know my listening habits. Although they do have a reward card program.
I like my privacy and prefer not to be tracked on certain things. I hate it how almost every store now at checkout asks you for your phone number and if you refuse they give you a weird look. Can't how many ply toilet I prefer remain a mystery?


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## Wood (Feb 21, 2013)

Mal said:


> Why wouldn't you play your favourite performer of your favourite music more than others? My most played CDs are probably Karajan's '63 set of Beethoven's symphonies. Of course I play others, especially now I have Spotify, but over time I suspect Karajan's "top 5" in that box will get played the most.


You would. I do. But that doesn't make them great performers entitled to the most money. On that basis some crappy pop singer is going to be the richest. Unless your or my preference is given a higher weighting than the plebs. How would that work?


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Wood said:


> You would. I do. But that doesn't make them great performers entitled to the most money. On that basis some crappy pop singer is going to be the richest. Unless your or my preference is given a higher weighting than the plebs. How would that work?


I propose that only worthy people of impeccable taste be allowed to buy music. We will probably need a new government department to determine eligibility, but the thing can be done.


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## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

I dont download much - and if I do I use a site of out of copyright music for pieces I load onto my phone for example.
Why download when you can buy CDs cheaply now - 2nd hand for a few pounds inc shipping and not much more for new.


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## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

jailhouse said:


> 1. theres no such thing as a cd store anymore
> 2. *why would i walk when i can type for 5 seconds and listen to any version of any piece ever in the history of recorded music*


It's healthy and for the thrill and satisfaction of getting off your !!** and hunting out great art in the big wide world?


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## Mal (Jan 1, 2016)

The main CD I wanted is £25 used on Amazon, the main box set is about twice that. Both are on Spotify. The "great art" is a click away, costing pennies, why would you go out hunting in the world? The music is the great art, not the lump of plastic that is the CD.


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## KRoad (Jun 1, 2012)

I continue to purchase CDs even when I know that streaming/down.loading is the way of the modern world. I've got a few of my own CDs on Spotify, iTunes, et.al, but when I see someone has down.loaded an album - I feel disappointed. If they had bought the hard copy CD instead they would have got the lyric booklet and notes to peruse as they listen. (Not to mention, my royalties...!)

When I buy a CD, as others here have noted, the booklet with historical notes and libretto increase the listening pleasure. It might be a generational kind of thang, a question of the aesthetics surrounding the consumption and appreciation of music.


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## jailhouse (Sep 2, 2016)

stomanek said:


> It's healthy and for the thrill and satisfaction of getting off your !!** and hunting out great art in the big wide world?


but im still hunting online for new interesting music/the best version etc...i just have immediate access to it for free instead of spending all my money and more of my time then necessary.


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## Mal (Jan 1, 2016)

You can find librettos & translations for free online, even the actual booklets in many cases. And, in too many cases, the historical notes aren't up to much, and wikipedia is often better. I don't think it''s a question of aesthetics, streaming or CD you still end up with the same music, and the same aesthetic experience.


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## Pyotr (Feb 26, 2013)

senza sordino said:


> I don't ......How much does the performer take in royalties when they sell a CD or sell a download compared with when someone streams their music or listens to a performance on Youtube?


I'll usually first record it via YouTube. If I like it, I'll buy it from Amazon. Recording from YouTube can be problematic since they throw commercials in there if you're not looking.

Buying from Amazon does give one lifetime access to it, if it's a digital download, and one can play it from their smart phone.


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## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

Mal said:


> The main CD I wanted is £25 used on Amazon, the main box set is about twice that. Both are on Spotify. The "great art" is a click away, costing pennies, why would you go out hunting in the world? The music is the great art, not the lump of plastic that is the CD.


and what happens if your pc is stolen? you have just lost your entire collection of recorded music.

gone are the days when you can lend someone a recording to introduce them to a piece of music - you just send them a you tube link


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## Wood (Feb 21, 2013)

stomanek said:


> and what happens if your pc is stolen? you have just lost your entire collection of recorded music.


No, you just buy another PC and upload your entire collection from the back up on your external hard drive.


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## Wood (Feb 21, 2013)

Sorry if I have missed this, but how do you get streamed music through to your hifi system, both physically and to CD quality?


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## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

Wood said:


> Sorry if I have missed this, but how do you get streamed music through to your hifi system, both physically and to CD quality?


that is an excellent question


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## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

Wood said:


> No, you just buy another PC and upload your entire collection from the back up on your external hard drive.


and when I die, my son will inherit my CD/LP collection and enjoy it for decades of his life - when you die your PC and 50 GB of downloaded music will most likely be be stored away or go to a house clearance firm - from there it will most likely find its way into the hovel of a third world ebay scammer.

Think about that.


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## Mal (Jan 1, 2016)

Wood said:


> Sorry if I have missed this, but how do you get streamed music through to your hifi system, both physically and to CD quality?


Spotify Premium through a Logitech Squeezebox Touch is as good, to my ears, as CDs through my Senn HD 650s.


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## Wood (Feb 21, 2013)

stomanek said:


> and when I die, my son will inherit my CD/LP collection and enjoy it for decades of his life - when you die your PC and 50 GB of downloaded music will most likely be be stored away or go to a house clearance firm - from there it will most likely find its way into the hovel of a third world ebay scammer.
> 
> Think about that.


Possibly, on the other hand it is easier to file share a complete mp3 collection than a physical collection, and my CDs and LPs won't appeal to anyone I know, and they have little value, so may end up in a skip after I kick the bucket.

I'll ask those I leave behind to post the location of the skip on TC, so anyone on TC can have a rummage around to see if they find anything they fancy.


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## Wood (Feb 21, 2013)

Mal said:


> Spotify Premium through a Logitech Squeezebox Touch is as good, to my ears, as CDs through my Senn HD 650s.


I see. So if you have a wifi adapter on your receiver, then you could put it through your main hifi? How would the sound compare of streaming spotify in this manner, through quality hifi speakers, to CDs played in the same manner?


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## Triplets (Sep 4, 2014)

I use ClassicsOnline, which streams at CD Quality and High Resolution 24/96. I can listen off of a mobile device, but I also have a MacBook Air connected to my main system via firewire (thunderbolt to fw conversion) via the firewire input of my DAC, the Mytek Manhatten. (The Mytek doesn't accept usb from Macs, but will accept the fw, thus the conversion. Every other DAC on the Planet should be able to connect via usb to a computer).
It sounds great. I have some CDs that I have compared to Classics OnLine, using another input on the DAC connected to my Oppo 105 used as a CD transport. To my surprise, the streamed version sounds just a tad better than the CD (perhaps the fw input is superior to the other digital inputs?).


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## Kivimees (Feb 16, 2013)

When trying to decide what to listen to, I often lovingly run my finger along the spines of my CD cases.


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

Kivimees said:


> When trying to decide what to listen to, I often lovingly run my finger along the spines of my CD cases.


Stop! You're getting me all excited, and my wife just left the house.


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## Mal (Jan 1, 2016)

Wood said:


> I see. So if you have a wifi adapter on your receiver, then you could put it through your main hifi? How would the sound compare of streaming spotify in this manner, through quality hifi speakers, to CDs played in the same manner?


Yes, you can think of the Logitech Squeezebox Touch as such an adaptor (plus a lot more...)

I have good budget hifi speakers and the sound is "comparable". But Sennheisser HD650s are top notch headphones, probably better than any speakers costing thousands of pounds. I doubt I could distinguish CDs/Spotify with them in a double blind test. I never cease to wonder how good the sound is with Spotify and now-and-again do a head to head with my CD collection. I've caught myself doing comparative listening to a piece, getting a bit bored with it, surfing the web, then a good part comes up, and I listen closely and think, "there, that CD sound is much better than Spotify", and on looking down realising I had forgotten I had flipped the switch to Spotify!

My main computer is a chrome box, and it can't stream Premium Spotify(!) If my Squeezebox disintegrated I might get something like Triplets has. I have a really cheap Maplin Dac that allows me to stream out of my chrome box and the sound is excellent, utube, BBC radio 3 hd, etc., are very listenable but don't quite come up to the quality of CDs, or of Spotify/Radio 3 HD through my Squeezebox.


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