# (dumb newbie question, sorry!) ... I'm confused about cadenzas...?



## laurie (Jan 12, 2017)

I'm discovering Brahms' Violin Concerto (Rachel Barton Pine) as I type, (wonderful so far ); 
so I see that the cadenza is written by Joseph Joachim; there is also a *bonus track* of a cadenza written by Barton Pine, then in the liner notes she talks about playing still more cadenzas written by various other people.... 
I'm sure someone here can better explain cadenzas to this newbie, thanks!


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## EddieRUKiddingVarese (Jan 8, 2013)

I'll leave that to others, I only specialize in STI threads


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## JAS (Mar 6, 2013)

Well, I'll give it a go. (Please forgive me if some of this is already obvious, but it requires context.) A concerto is a musical piece written for an orchestra and featuring a soloist on a specified instrument (piano, violin, cello, etc.). As part of this work, it was traditional for the soloist (who might be the composer) to have a long section in the middle which only the soloist played (hence "the soloist"), while the orchestra rested, waiting for a cue to begin again with the rest of the work. The idea of the cadenza, in theory, was not only to show off the soloist's skills as a performer, but also to allow the soloist to improvise a section of music, as improvisation was long a valued skill for the best musicians. 

Unfortunately, and increasing so over time, soloists were not necessarily composers and were less able to improvise suitably, so the composer of the concerto was obligated to provide a pre-written candenza. In some cases, over time, a particularly popular concerto might end up with more than one such cadenza, generally written for different performers (and possibly intended to focus on a particular strength of that performer). 

In modern performances, it is extremely rare for the soloist to improvise, and the cadenza itself has usually become so well known as part of the overall piece that it is as "fixed" as the rest of the score. (There are examples of more modern cadenzas being written or commissioned by a soloist for a given concerto, but for a well-known concerto, with an already set audience expectation, that is a pretty daring thing to attempt these days. I remember some years ago hearing a performance of the Beethoven Violin Concerto with a newly composed cadenza, which I thought was awful and not at all in keeping with the overall piece.)

Does any of that help?


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## Vaneyes (May 11, 2010)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cadenza

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Violin_Concerto_(Brahms)

There's even a car called! :tiphat:


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

laurie said:


> I'm discovering Brahms' Violin Concerto (Rachel Barton Pine) as I type, (wonderful so far );
> so I see that the cadenza is written by Joseph Joachim; there is also a *bonus track* of a cadenza written by Barton Pine, then in the liner notes she talks about playing still more cadenzas written by various other people....
> I'm sure someone here can better explain cadenzas to this newbie, thanks!


The Joachim is a famous cadenza written by Brahm's friend, Joseph Joachim. Most violinists play it. Rachel Barton Pine has written her own terrific cadenza and it can be played in place of the famous Joachim cadenza. She gives you the choice!


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

EddieRUKiddingVarese said:


> I'll leave that to others, I only specialize in STI threads


Don't forget the vinyl.......


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## Dan Ante (May 4, 2016)

JAS said:


> Unfortunately, and increasing so over time, soloists were not necessarily composers and were less able to improvise suitably,


An excellent explanation by the way. 
Regarding the above quote: I wonder why a lot of soloists don't improvise, I mean it is not as if it is a 'spur of the moment thing' They spend weeks/months practicing the work so they are not lazy have they just lost the ability? or just content to use someone else's. Which conductor was it that said 'Heaven save us from 'cadenzas' when experiencing an extra long one


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## Merl (Jul 28, 2016)

What an excellent and informative thread. I love threads like these. Thank you. I''ve learned a lot from these posts.


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## Guest (Apr 13, 2017)

JAS said:


> Well, I'll give it a go. (Please forgive me if some of this is already obvious, but it requires context.) A concerto is a musical piece written for an orchestra and featuring a soloist on a specified instrument (piano, violin, cello, etc.). As part of this work, it was traditional for the soloist (who might be the composer) to have a long section in the middle which only the soloist played (hence "the soloist"), while the orchestra rested, waiting for a cue to begin again with the rest of the work. The idea of the cadenza, in theory, was not only to show off the soloist's skills as a performer, but also to allow the soloist to improvise a section of music, as improvisation was long a valued skill for the best musicians.
> 
> Unfortunately, and increasing so over time, soloists were not necessarily composers and were less able to improvise suitably, so the composer of the concerto was obligated to provide a pre-written candenza. In some cases, over time, a particularly popular concerto might end up with more than one such cadenza, generally written for different performers (and possibly intended to focus on a particular strength of that performer).
> 
> ...


Here is an example.


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## Chatellerault (Apr 4, 2017)

JAS said:


> In some cases, over time, a particularly popular concerto might end up with more than one such cadenza


In the case of Mozart's piano concertos there is a huge amount of cadenzas by famous names such as Beethoven, Clara Schumann, Brahms, Saint-Saëns, Fauré, Busoni, Gulda, etc. Most of them written for personal use by the composer-performer. These cadenzas show a long line of interpretation practices used for the same concertos from the 18th century until today, unlike the contemporary HIP (historically-informed performance) experts who sometimes claim there is one and only way to play them.


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## MarkW (Feb 16, 2015)

Many years ago, I heard pianist Frederic Rzewski (a terrific avante-garde pianist and composer) performing Beethoven's 4th Piano Concerto with a regional New England orchestra -- a work most often heard with cadenzas Beethoven wrote himself. In, I think, the last movement, Rzewski launched into his own somewhat dramatic cadenza -- it was suddenly like standing on a street corner in the Watts section of Los Angeles as it was burning during the 1966 riots.  It beat anything I had heard in a long time.


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## Dan Ante (May 4, 2016)

And why not its about time the cadenza was given a prod.


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## laurie (Jan 12, 2017)

JAS said:


> Well, I'll give it a go. (Please forgive me if some of this is already obvious, but it requires context.) A concerto is a musical piece written for an orchestra and featuring a soloist on a specified instrument (piano, violin, cello, etc.). As part of this work, it was traditional for the soloist (who might be the composer) to have a long section in the middle which only the soloist played (hence "the soloist"), while the orchestra rested, waiting for a cue to begin again with the rest of the work. The idea of the cadenza, in theory, was not only to show off the soloist's skills as a performer, but also to allow the soloist to improvise a section of music, as improvisation was long a valued skill for the best musicians.
> 
> Unfortunately, and increasing so over time, soloists were not necessarily composers and were less able to improvise suitably, so the composer of the concerto was obligated to provide a pre-written candenza. In some cases, over time, a particularly popular concerto might end up with more than one such cadenza, generally written for different performers (and possibly intended to focus on a particular strength of that performer).
> 
> ...


Yes, it does! You explained it perfectly, thank you. .


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