# Does anyone on here have an opinion about Christian Contemporary Music (CCM)?



## SongQuestion

I am a Christian who personally does not like it and I think "Christian Rock" is anything but Christian, but I am sure many others on here will disagree with me. I am just curious as to the opinions of those on this forum, particularly since it isn't Christian. I can provide arguments for why I do not like it if anyone is curious .


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## Morimur

SongQuestion said:


> I am a Christian who personally does not like it and I think "Christian Rock" is anything but Christian, but I am sure many others on here will disagree with me. I am just curious as to the opinions of those on this forum, particularly since it isn't Christian. I can provide arguments for why I do not like it if anyone is curious .


It's terrible. Byrd and Bach truly glorified God with music. The Hillsong United Band? Oh, Lord. The Christian Church has really lowered its standards with regards to art and music.


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## Whistler Fred

I mostly agree with Lope. There are a few individual songs I may enjoy, although they are probably closer to folk than to rock. But I'll turn to Bach, or Arvo Part (and there are others) when I want to hear music that glorifies God.


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## GreenMamba

I like Rock but not Christian Rock, which is bland. There are religious rock songs I like, e.g., Presence of The Lord, Bargain.


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## DavidA

I think you've gotta realise that the Hillsong stuff is meant to be sung by a congregation for them to worship whereas Bach's was (largely) sung by a trained choir. It is simply not a viable comparison. Singing Hillsong is a quite different experience from listening to Bach. Of course, it depends whether you're willing to be a participant and allow your spirit to be carried along.
No-one (not even the Hillsong writers) are going to say their music matches Bach. But they are writing music ordinary people can sing to worship in a congregation.


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## Tristan

I like some popular music that uses Christian themes like the music of TobyMac and Owl City. I also like many modern church songs that were sung at my church during Mass. I'm open to contemporary Christian music, but I admit I don't listen to a whole lot of it.


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## worov

I highly enjoy music that glorifying God : J.S. Bach, Monteverdi, Mozart's Requiem, Vivaldi, Pergolesi, Handel's oratorios, Britten's Requiem... In recent composers, I enjoy some. Here are some exemples :

Arvo Pärt (many things to listen, this is just an exemple) :






Gorecki : beatus Vir :






You may not believe it, but Heitor Villa-Lobos composed some church music. Check it out :






Alan Hovhaness (most of his work is kind of mystical) :






Sofia Gubaidulina : Johannes Passion






Of course, this is just the tip of the iceberg. There are many more.


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## Ravndal

Anything that has "christian" in front of it, is usually a warning sign for something incredibly lame. Like for instance christian rock.


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## DavidA

Ravndal said:


> Anything that has "christian" in front of it, is usually a warning sign for something incredibly lame. Like for instance christian rock.


Oh come off it!


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## Ravndal

No. It's a ridiculous brand.


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## DavidA

Ravndal said:


> No. It's a ridiculous brand.


Well, as you quote Nietzche I can see where your prejudice comes!


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## SiegendesLicht

I think there should be a distinction between music that is meant for worshipping God and "worldly" music. You cannot simply take some contemporary pop/rock, slap lyrics about Jesus on it (and some of these bands sing about Jesus almost as if they were singing about their boyfriend) and worship God with it. And personally my spirit is much more uplifted by a Bach cantata or a piece like Brahms' "German Requiem" than by anything contemporary.

PS. Nietzsche should be taken with a grain of salt, but he had some fine ideas.


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## Morimur

SiegendesLicht said:


> I think there should be a distinction between music that is meant for worshipping God and "worldly" music. You cannot simply take some contemporary pop/rock, slap lyrics about Jesus on it (and some of these bands sing about Jesus almost as if they were singing about their boyfriend) and worship God with it. And personally my spirit is much more uplifted by a Bach cantata or a piece like Brahms' "German Requiem" than by anything contemporary.
> 
> PS. Nietzsche should be taken with a grain of salt, but he had some fine ideas.


Totally agree. xxxxxxxxx


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## Manxfeeder

After a I long absence, I got back into classical music, specifically sacred music, because Christian music wasn't doing it for me.

I don't think Christian rock in itself is bad, but it sounds borrowed. Back in the early days of rock, the rock musicians stole from the church; they took the church music they knew and converted it into the secular. (Of course, I realize they stole from other sources also.) But now Christians steal from _rock_, which means they have to learn each new rock fad, no matter how vile, to convert it into something sacred. As a result, it doesn't sound authentic.

Praise and worship is another genre that doesn't quite click with me. There are some Christian praise & worship songs that speak to me, but a lot of it is repetitious and simplistic with words which don't call for much commitment ("Here I am to worship, here I am to fall down, here I am to say that you're my God"). And it's really boring to play; mostly three chords over and over and over. But I have a lot of 30-something friends who love this, and in my neck of the woods, this kind of music seems to be taking over, so I'm trying to like it.

But personally, I think praise and worship music is getting long in the tooth, and I'm looking forward for the next generation to come up with something truly authentic.


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## DavidA

SiegendesLicht said:


> I think there should be a distinction between music that is meant for worshipping God and "worldly" music. You cannot simply take some contemporary pop/rock, slap lyrics about Jesus on it (and some of these bands sing about Jesus almost as if they were singing about their boyfriend) and worship God with it. And personally my spirit is much more uplifted by a Bach cantata or a piece like Brahms' "German Requiem" than by anything contemporary.
> 
> PS. Nietzsche should be taken with a grain of salt, but he had some fine ideas.


The problem lies in a misconception of what worship is - ie that it has to be like Brahms' Requiem (which was written by an agnostic) in order to be pious. That misses the point that worship in the Bible is spoken of as something exuberant - eg in psalm 150 as well as something contemplative. Christian music as found in many churches today exists as an aid to worship not an altar of high art! If you want great music look elsewhere. However, personally being unable myself to sing Bach Cantatas (nor being able to speak German) when I want to worship God In church I look to places like Hillsongs. At home I listen to Bach.


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## DavidA

Lope de Aguirre said:


> It's terrible. Byrd and Bach truly glorified God with music. The Hillsong United Band? Oh, Lord. The Christian Church has really lowered its standards with regards to art and music.


You miss the point friend. Contemporary Christian music is there to enable the ordinary Joe to worship. I mean, how many members of the average congregation can sing Byrd?


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## Krummhorn

At the church where I am employed as the organist, we have two services: 

One is very high church and quite traditional, the other is what we call "convergent worship" where we combine the old with the new. This is not 'happy clappy' music (which I loathe) but more contemporary versions of some of the standard hymns. 

We do not have the budget for a 'praise band' every weekend, but we do bring in a percussionist and bassist on the festival Sundays of the year, at which we use also piano and electronic keyboard. 

What I do not like is when a praise band will take something classical and turn it into a christian rock beat. Totally agree that they need to come up with their own material, and some new fresh stuff. 

Meanwhile, all of our classical music will endure far into the future as it has already done for several centuries in the past. 

Kh ♫


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## SongQuestion

Thank you everyone for all your responses! 

I see a lot of people on here are actually at least somewhat sympathetic to my position, but given this is a forum for classical music as opposed to soft rock, I guess I shouldn't be too surprised! The reason I am opposed to CCM is not so much because I think it is artistically lacking and shallow, but because I believe it is actually undermining the Christian faith! I know many will be offended by me for saying this, and I hope you will not feel I personally dislike you just because you may like it or even defend it: I don't hate you for disagreeing with me, even vehemently! I hope I don't make too many enemies here or even have people think I am a "wacko" but I feel strongly about this subject.

I hold the position of David Cloud on www.wayoflife.org about this subject. He gives some good reasons why Christian churches shouldn't "mess around with CCM" and why the music is helping lead to the "one world church." If you are Christian, you will know where I am going with this. If you are not, I hope you are curious anyway  Just go to his home page and search about CCM if you want to know more. He has a plethora of articles detailing his stance and evidence for why he feels the way he does. Even if you don't ultimately agree, I hope the curiosity of some of you is sparked, and take a good look at them anyway.

Again, thank you for all your responses! I do appreciate them!

SongQuestion


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## Blake

I can't imagine a being like Jesus is really concerned either way. This kind of stuff is completely fabricated from and for the people of faith. 

I can see him now, "Hey pops, they're singing my favorite jams. Brownie points!"

Just be a kind person.


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## starthrower

David Cloud? That guy does some cloudy thinking. As for so called contemporary Christian music, it's only a label, and making a sweeping judgement on all artists who may be categorized as such doesn't make any sense.


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## Winterreisender

Yes Christian Rock can be very inspirational, e.g.


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## DavidA

SongQuestion said:


> Thank you everyone for all your responses!
> 
> I see a lot of people on here are actually at least somewhat sympathetic to my position, but given this is a forum for classical music as opposed to soft rock, I guess I shouldn't be too surprised! The reason I am opposed to CCM is not so much because I think it is artistically lacking and shallow, but because I believe it is actually undermining the Christian faith! I know many will be offended by me for saying this, and I hope you will not feel I personally dislike you just because you may like it or even defend it: I don't hate you for disagreeing with me, even vehemently! I hope I don't make too many enemies here or even have people think I am a "wacko" but I feel strongly about this subject.
> 
> I hold the position of David Cloud on www.wayoflife.org about this subject. He gives some good reasons why Christian churches shouldn't "mess around with CCM" and why the music is helping lead to the "one world church." If you are Christian, you will know where I am going with this. If you are not, I hope you are curious anyway  Just go to his home page and search about CCM if you want to know more. He has a plethora of articles detailing his stance and evidence for why he feels the way he does. Even if you don't ultimately agree, I hope the curiosity of some of you is sparked, and take a good look at them anyway.
> 
> Again, thank you for all your responses! I do appreciate them!
> 
> SongQuestion


First if all it depends on what Christian music you mean. Something like Hillsongs is certainly not undermining the Christian faith - the church numbers several thousands! It is the message of the faith that matters not the artistic merit. The fact is that God looks on the heart of the worshipper not on the artistic merit. The bible tells us to 'make a joyful noise to the Lord' not an artistic (or even tuneful) one.
As for Mr a Cloud, he represents a certain view held by a certain part of the church. He is actually talking in his blog about secular rock being adapted for church use (the Beatles were not Christian by any stretch of the imagination) not music written by Christians for churches.


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## SongQuestion

DavidA said:


> First if all it depends on what Christian music you mean. Something like Hillsongs is certainly not undermining the Christian faith - the church numbers several thousands! It is the message of the faith that matters not the artistic merit. The fact is that God looks on the heart of the worshipper not on the artistic merit. The bible tells us to 'make a joyful noise to the Lord' not an artistic (or even tuneful) one.
> As for Mr a Cloud, he represents a certain view held by a certain part of the church. He is actually talking in his blog about secular rock being adapted for church use (the Beatles were not Christian by any stretch of the imagination) not music written by Christians for churches.


Thank you for your response, DavidA.

If you are curious, you may want to take a look at these articles, even if you don't agree:

DARLENE ZSCHECH AND CONTEMPORARY PRAISE MUSIC
http://www.wayoflife.org/database/darlene_zschech_and_praise.html

CCM Permeated with False Christs and False Gods
http://www.wayoflife.org/index_files/ccm_permeated_with_false_christs.html

CCM Groups Love Secular Rock
http://www.wayoflife.org/database/ccm_groups_love_secular_rock.html

Musical Associations and CCM Adaptation
http://www.wayoflife.org/index_files/musical_associations_and_ccm_adaptation.html

Aren't Multitudes of Young People Being Saved Through CCM?
http://www.wayoflife.org/index_files/arent_multitudes_of_young_people_saved_ccm.html

And if you are really curious, read these free eBooks:

The Transformational Power of Contemporary Praise Music
http://www.wayoflife.org/free_ebooks/transformational_power.php

Directory of Contemporary Worship Musicians
http://www.wayoflife.org/free_ebooks/directory_of_contemporary_worship.php


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## GreenMamba

Those articles make me sympathetic with CCM.


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## DavidA

SongQuestion said:


> Thank you for your response, DavidA.
> 
> If you are curious, you may want to take a look at these articles, even if you don't agree:
> 
> DARLENE ZSCHECH AND CONTEMPORARY PRAISE MUSIC
> http://www.wayoflife.org/database/darlene_zschech_and_praise.html
> 
> CCM Permeated with False Christs and False Gods
> http://www.wayoflife.org/index_files/ccm_permeated_with_false_christs.html
> 
> CCM Groups Love Secular Rock
> http://www.wayoflife.org/database/ccm_groups_love_secular_rock.html
> 
> Musical Associations and CCM Adaptation
> http://www.wayoflife.org/index_files/musical_associations_and_ccm_adaptation.html
> 
> Aren't Multitudes of Young People Being Saved Through CCM?
> http://www.wayoflife.org/index_files/arent_multitudes_of_young_people_saved_ccm.html
> 
> And if you are really curious, read these free eBooks:
> 
> The Transformational Power of Contemporary Praise Music
> http://www.wayoflife.org/free_ebooks/transformational_power.php
> 
> Directory of Contemporary Worship Musicians
> http://www.wayoflife.org/free_ebooks/directory_of_contemporary_worship.php


I hate to say it but it's the usual tired old negativity I expect from these quarters. I have actually Darleen Zscheck and I have a different opinion to this guy who appears all-knowing. If it's not his scene then fine, but why on earth spend all this time publishing such dire negativity? Not all CCM is good of course, but neither is any other sort of music. 
The problem is with guys like this is they have a thesis and then try and lump everything in it in a negative and us discerning way, a bit like Norman Lebrecht does in his books on the modern music scene. There is no effort to separate the good from the bad. Such people depress me.


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## Blake

DavidA said:


> I hate to say it but it's the usual tired old negativity I expect from these quarters. I have actually Darleen Zscheck and I have a different opinion to this guy who appears all-knowing. If it's not his scene then fine, but why on earth spend all this time publishing such dire negativity? Not all CCM is good of course, but neither is any other sort of music.
> The problem is with guys like this is they have a thesis and then try and lump everything in it in a negative and us discerning way, a bit like Norman Lebrecht does in his books on the modern music scene. There is no effort to separate the good from the bad. Such people depress me.


For someone to be so absurdly negative shows more about their disease than anything else.

... I'm not saying the other way is 'right', but good grief. Get off it.


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## DavidA

Vesuvius said:


> I can't imagine a being like Jesus is really concerned either way. This kind of stuff is completely fabricated from and for the people of faith.
> 
> I can see him now, "Hey pops, they're singing my favorite jams. Brownie points!"
> 
> Just be a kind person.


I cannot honestly see how stuff can be 'fabricated from and for the people of faith.' You can't have it both ways as it doesn't make sense.
Christian worship,music is not something we sing to get us brownie points with God because we know he loves us. It's to express our love for him!


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## Blake

DavidA said:


> I cannot honestly see how stuff can be 'fabricated from and for the people of faith.' You can't have it both ways as it doesn't make sense.
> Christian worship,music is not something we sing to get us brownie points with God because we know he loves us. It's to express our love for him!


Everyone isn't as genuine as you. Most aren't. It's usually a theatrical event.


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## DavidA

Vesuvius said:


> Everyone isn't as genuine as you. Most aren't. It's usually a theatrical event.


And just what concrete evidence have you got for that statement?


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## Blake

DavidA said:


> And just what concrete evidence have you got for that statement?


My own experience.


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## DavidA

Vesuvius said:


> My own experience.


Elaborate please.


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## Blake

DavidA said:


> Elaborate please.


Grew up in catholic schools... Saw that it was more about a 'social image' than anything else. Didn't agree with it... Let it go. I understand _all_ aren't like this, but plenty are. And I'd rather just be on my own. I still warmly embrace other's views, but there is no 'best' religion, and many people use it as a social club rather actually trying to transcend the human condition.


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## DavidA

Vesuvius said:


> Grew up in catholic schools... Saw that it was more about a 'social image' than anything else. Didn't agree with it... Let it go. I understand _all_ aren't like this, but plenty are. And I'd rather just be on my own. I still warmly embrace other's views, but there is no 'best' religion, and many people use it as a social club rather actually trying to transcend the human condition.


With respect, I would not say that a Catholic school is the most advantageous place to form an opinion on CCM. The 'social club' has not been my own general experience.


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## Ingélou

@Vesuvius - everyone goes by their own experience, but you can't extrapolate from that and say that 'plenty of people' at church aren't genuine or that it's 'usually' a social event. That's because you - just like me - are in no position to know that, not being omniscient or able to see into people's minds.

My own experience is different & I have encountered very few Catholics or Christians of other denominations (I am a convert) that I thought were phoney. But it's still 'just my' experience.

I don't particularly like 'ditties' or rock music in church services, but so what? It isn't artistic merit that counts in worship, but the wish to love/serve/be with God. *

And the sincerity of that wish can only be judged by God.*


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## Blake

DavidA said:


> With respect, I would not say that a Catholic school is the most advantageous place to form an opinion on CCM. The 'social club' has not been my own general experience.





Ingélou said:


> @Vesuvius - everyone goes by their own experience, but you can't extrapolate from that and say that 'plenty of people' at church aren't genuine or that it's 'usually' a social event. That's because you - just like me - are in no position to know that, not being omniscient or able to see into people's minds.
> 
> My own experience is different & I have encountered very few Catholics or Christians of other denominations (I am a convert) that I thought were phoney. But it's still 'just my' experience.
> 
> I don't particularly like 'ditties' or rock music in church services, but so what? It isn't artistic merit that counts in worship, but the wish to love/serve/be with God. *
> 
> And the sincerity of that wish can only be judged by God.*


Maybe the CCM is a different and more 'elite' catholic group that I haven't "experienced." My bad.... I only grew up around the catholic faith my entire life, so no real authority here. I have no problem giving you the shirt off my back, but the 'religion' I've been around gives you the shirt off their back only if god is looking....

Like I've said, it's not all bad. But most of it is complete nonsense. I have lived half of my life in it, and I don't know how much more empirical this can be. Do you want me to point you to a book of somebody else who has 'gone through it.' Would that make it more valuable. Haha, come on.


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## Blake

By the way, Ingelou... I'm not trying to disregard your faith or your new finding of life. I think you're a sweetheart, and I always wish you the best. I'm directing at the 'pop culture' of the catholic way that I've been entangled in for half of my life as a youth. And it is complete nonsense... at least how the 'mainstream' has twisted it. The core message is quite beautiful, like most religions. But it doesn't take long for the populous to molest something enlightening.


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## brotagonist

Do I have an opinion about CCM?

I do, and it's not a good one. I haven't heard much and what I heard sounded schmaltzy and I just don't like pop music and have little interest in the genre that the CCM I heard was trying to fit into. It kind of sounded like music from a genre primarily oriented to the teenage listener that I would not have a lot of interest in anyway, with sappy, moralizing Christian lyrics grafted on.

Just as with hip hip and rap, there is probably some decent CCM around, but I am not interested in locating it. There's a LOT of great Christian classical music by composers I already love 

I have, however, rather enjoyed SOME, not a lot, of gospel bluegrass and I have a Marty Stuart country gospel album, Souls' Chapel, that I am quite fond of, although I don't particularly care for any of his other stuff.


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## DavidA

I think some of you guys are rather missing the point. Much of CCM is meant to be sung as worship not just listened to. No doubt if I were a great singer I could perhaps do a rendering of Bach's Cantata 51 but for the less gifted the simpler tunes and lyrics of CCM will suffice.


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## brotagonist

DavidA said:


> ...CCM is meant to be sung as worship...


I guess that's why it never worked for me. I am a man of brief and direct prayer.


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## DavidA

brotagonist said:


> I guess that's why it never worked for me. I am a man of brief and direct prayer.


Hence I assume you do not like pieces like Bach's Cantata 51 owing to the length of time to praise The Lord?


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## brotagonist

^ I use brief and direct prayer, a personal hot line, to meet my spiritual needs and listening to music for my entertainment needs. They are separate endeavours and _this is how I like it_ :tiphat:

While Bach is a composer I love, I have never listened to his cantatas (yet): I think this type of music _might_ be too 'churchy' for me. I am open to it, but I feel no rush to get into it.

You might meet your needs differently and that is fine with me


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## Blake

brotagonist said:


> ^ I use brief and direct player, a personal hot line, to meet my spiritual needs and listening to music for my entertainment needs. They are separate endeavours and _this is how I like it_ :tiphat:
> 
> While Bach is a composer I love, I have never listened to his cantatas (yet): I think this type of music _might_ be too 'churchy' for me. I am open to it, but I feel no rush to get into it.
> 
> You might meet your needs differently and that is fine with me


I don't listen to the cantatas for religious purposes. I just enjoy them as beautiful pieces of music. Same with the masses, passions, etc.


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## DavidA

Vesuvius said:


> I don't listen to the cantatas for religious purposes. I just enjoy them as beautiful pieces of music. Same with the masses, passions, etc.


I think most people do.

Why Wesley and Co wrote their hymns - so the ordinary member of the congregation could sing them. What's more, in the days before literacy became common, they wouldn't remember the words and hence the theology too!


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## science

My younger brother is in the Christian rock business, and as far as I can tell it is a genuine expression of his faith as well as of his love for that style (~ "those styles" would be better) of music. He knows that a lot of conservative Christians reject it and as far as I can tell he simply isn't worried about them or their opinions. I have some hope that as he ages his faith will become more spiritual and less hateful, more about what and Who he loves than about what and who he rejects, but of course for that to happen he will have to escape the fundamentalist culture that we both grew up in. I don't have any hope for his music - it's pretty good already, there's no room for hope!


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## millionrainbows

When I heard a Christian group who sounded like Steely Dan, I was repelled; but really, it's just using popular models as a vehicle, and ther's nothing inherently wrong with wanting to sound 'modern.'


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## Vaneyes

The OPie has a right to be suspicious of so-called Christian bands and singers. I've read/heard rumors of some, but I won't go into that. Showbiz is shobiz. Money-making and corruption don't pick certain genre. :devil:


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## DavidA

millionrainbows said:


> When I heard a Christian group who sounded like Steely Dan, I was repelled; but really, it's just using popular models as a vehicle, and ther's nothing inherently wrong with wanting to sound 'modern.'


I wonder if you would have been equally repelled by the instruments in Psalm 150. One problem is we have developed an idea of Christian worship that is far from its Jewish roots.


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## DavidA

Vaneyes said:


> The OPie has a right to be suspicious of so-called Christian bands and singers. I've read/heard rumors of some, but I won't go into that. Showbiz is shobiz. Money-making and corruption don't pick certain genre. :devil:


Read and heard rumors. I've read and heard rumors about a lot of things but you need to go on facts. Of course some may be in it for the money. The only thing I can say is the people I know (which number quite a few) are sincere people. These are facts, friend, not rumors! Read the beginning of Shakespeare's Henry IV part 2 to see where rumor takes you!


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## Blake

DavidA said:


> Read and heard rumors. I've read and heard rumors about a lot of things but you need to go on facts. Of course some may be in it for the money. The only thing I can say is the people I know (which number quite a few) are sincere people. These are facts, friend, not rumors! Read the beginning of Shakespeare's Henry IV part 2 to see where rumor takes you!


I see where you're coming from. The message from the prophets themselves are quite beautiful... but the problem is they are being translated by many who haven't a clue what they mean. They just want the image so they can sit next to jesus and get those famous cupcakes.

I think that's why one of jesus's biggest teachings was to 'shut-up'... or "be still."


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## Morimur

*The Trees Community: Psalm 42*


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## Blake

Lope de Aguirre said:


>


I dig it. At the core, it's a groovy religion... It can be difficult to not focus on the surface funk of the play though (how it's been so publicly corrupted)... which is really what gives this a bad name.


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## DavidA

Vesuvius said:


> I see where you're coming from. The message from the prophets themselves are quite beautiful... but the problem is they are being translated by many who haven't a clue what they mean. They just want the image so they can sit next to jesus and get those famous cupcakes.
> 
> I think that's why one of jesus's biggest teachings was to 'shut-up'... or "be still."


Oh yes? And who are these people? I don't know any.
And I never heard of Jesus making cupcakes. Loaves and fishes maybe?
And where did Jesus teach us to 'shut up'?


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## SiegendesLicht

DavidA said:


> I think most people do.
> 
> Why Wesley and Co wrote their hymns - so the ordinary member of the congregation could sing them. What's more, in the days before literacy became common, they wouldn't remember the words and hence the theology too!


Sure, but those hymns were solemn and dignified music, it was not the same music people would play in pubs or dance to after visiting those pubs. There also existed a distinction betwenn music purely for entertainment and music for worship.


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## SixFootScowl

Good Christian rock is hard to find. There is some Christian heavy metal that I like (Reborn, by Stryper for example) but never listen to because it is not a style I really care for. But about the only Christian Rock album I really thought was any good is Jefferson Street, by Three Crosses. That whole album is very good. Other than that I like the Gospel songs (and most everything) of Johnny Cash, and Bob Dylan put out three Christian rock albums when he was born again in the early 1980s--those are very good: Slow Train Coming, Saved, and Shot of Love.


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## Blake

DavidA said:


> Oh yes? And who are these people? I don't know any.
> And I never heard of Jesus making cupcakes. Loaves and fishes maybe?
> And where did Jesus teach us to 'shut up'?


Dude... apparently we're on completely different planets.


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## DavidA

Vesuvius said:


> Dude... apparently we're on completely different planets.


Exactly! And talking about a different Jesus, I think!


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## DavidA

SiegendesLicht said:


> Sure, but those hymns were solemn and dignified music, it was not the same music people would play in pubs or dance to after visiting those pubs. There also existed a distinction betwenn music purely for entertainment and music for worship.


I'm afraid it's not like that. The first hymns - written by people like Martin Luther - were often set to the popular tunes of the day. Charles Wesley set many of his hymns to popular tunes. On one occasion he heard some sailors seeing a very vulgar sea shanty. But Wesley like the tune and told the sailors he'd find better words. And he wrote a hymn to the tune. The same sort of thing happened with a lot of the great hymn writers. Indeed it was Gen William Booth who famously asked why the devil should have all the best tunes! Of course a lot of hymns were set to original tunes. But these tunes were usually in the style popular for the day. This distinction between secular and sacred as far as music goes cannot be made so easily.


----------



## Blake

DavidA said:


> Exactly! And talking about a different Jesus, I think!


Yea, the guy who said "Be still, and know that I am." But I suppose we interpret that very differently.


----------



## SongQuestion

Vaneyes said:


> The OPie has a right to be suspicious of so-called Christian bands and singers. I've read/heard rumors of some, but I won't go into that. Showbiz is shobiz. Money-making and corruption don't pick certain genre. :devil:


Hi Vaneyes, thanks for the comment! Concerning what you just posted, here is an interesting news story:

Convicted Heavy Metal 'Christian' Singer Admits Being Atheist
http://dorightchristians.wordpress....-metal-christian-singer-admits-being-atheist/


----------



## Vaneyes

SongQuestion said:


> Hi Vaneyes, thanks for the comment! Concerning what you just posted, here is an interesting news story:
> 
> Convicted Heavy Metal 'Christian' Singer Admits Being Atheist
> http://dorightchristians.wordpress....-metal-christian-singer-admits-being-atheist/


Yes, crossover (limited or full bore) is a common tactic. I recall when Michael Bolton dabbled in arias. Just about everybody has twanged a country song or two. Some C&W'ers are now upset that rap is infiltrating their domain. :tiphat:


----------



## Dustin

I am extremely passionate about _gospel_ music but I think that is completely different than what the majority of churches play today though I could be wrong. When I say gospel I mean gospel as in the cousin of jazz and blues that originated in the south. I've actually never been to a church that played this style of music and I've been to quite a few. I'm sure there are still churches though especially in the South where there are still rollicking choirs singing along to a piano player who is lighting the keys up. A decently well known black gospel piano player named Ethel Caffie-Austin is the best by far I've ever heard in this style. She will give you chills with her energetic, joyously inventive playing. Also in the gospel realm, I LOVE gospel quartets like the Golden Gate Quartet but good luck finding those and let me know if you do.


----------



## SixFootScowl

Here is some great Gospel blues from the old blues masters: Muddy Waters, Lightnin' Hopkins, Fred McDowell, Charley Patton, Washington Phillips, Blind Willie Johnson, Robert Wilkins, Booker White, Dock Reed and Son House. It is covered by Tom Feldmann on his album Tribute. Here are the clips. This is a really wonderful album!


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## KenOC

You just have to find the right group.


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## starthrower

^^^
I hope they sold enough records to pay for the hairspray!


----------



## DavidA

Vesuvius said:


> Yea, the guy who said "Be still, and know that I am." But I suppose we interpret that very differently.


'Be still and know that I am God' comes from the Psalms, friend! The Hebrew sense is to let go and allow God to have his way in your life.


----------



## DavidA

SongQuestion said:


> Hi Vaneyes, thanks for the comment! Concerning what you just posted, here is an interesting news story:
> 
> Convicted Heavy Metal 'Christian' Singer Admits Being Atheist
> http://dorightchristians.wordpress....-metal-christian-singer-admits-being-atheist/


Of course you find frauds and phonies in every walk of life. But that makes everyone a fraud?


----------



## Blake

DavidA said:


> 'Be still and know that I am God' comes from the Psalms, friend! The Hebrew sense is to let go and allow God to have his way in your life.


Pretty much means 'shut-up', stop chasing your thoughts, and abide in your being....


----------



## Morimur

DavidA said:


> Of course you find frauds and phonies in every walk of life. But that makes everyone a fraud?


We (humans) are all frauds. Not to mention HYPOCRITES who accuse others of the very things we're guilty of. Only CHRIST is blameless.


----------



## Marschallin Blair

> Lope de Aguirre: We (humans) are all frauds. Not to mention HYPOCRITES who accuse others of the very things we're guilty of. Only CHRIST is blameless.


-- only if He were a drag queen.


----------



## DavidA

KenOC said:


> You just have to find the right group.


I think if you look at secular records of the same period you will find similar styles!


----------



## DavidA

Vesuvius said:


> Pretty much means 'shut-up', stop chasing your thoughts, and abide in your being....


It certainly does not mean 'abide in your being. It means abide in God!

And just point out Jesus didn't say it - the Psalmist did!


----------



## Blake

DavidA said:


> It certainly does not mean 'abide in your being. It means abide in God!


Whatever you want to call it.


----------



## fairbanks

I personally, do not like contemporary at all. I prefer JS Bach and the old hymns.


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## Jobis

Some songs I have a fondness for because I have sung them at certain points; perhaps not for the musical content but more for the joyful nature and the lyrics.






As long as CCM is not too sappy or in the manner of certain 'Jesus is my boyfriend' type songs, I find it quite tolerable. 

Music that veers more towards Gospel I think I can truly appreciate on a higher level because it does not feel like worship music imitating popular music but a truer form of joyous worship.


----------



## Serge

****, no. ... ... ...


----------



## Bellinilover

I don't know the first thing about contemporary Christian music, but I do know that those religious cantatas from the Baroque period, like the Bach cantatas, all sound alike to me (my brother is a Baroque violinist, so I've had to sit through a fair number of them; for some reason, I just don't respond to the genre). In general, I much prefer the religious-themed music of the 19th century -- Mendelssohn's _Elijah_, the Four Serious Songs by Brahms, etc.. As for worship music, I've always liked the less "churchy"-sounding hymns the best. For example, there are several in the Catholic hymnal that sound like they were originally "Protestant" rather than "Catholic" hymns, and it's those that appeal to me most.


----------



## BaronScarpia

Ha! I have nothing relevant to contribute to this discussion, except for that on the New Posts page this thread shows up as *Does anyone on here have an opinion about*. No need to finish that. The answer's always going to be yes on TC!


----------



## Archduke

I like CCM. CCM connects with our culture and enables a more authentic expression for most people today than singing, "A Mighty Fortress" or "Here We Are But Straying Pilgrims."


----------



## Fugue Meister

Yeah, it sucks. I'm not trying to upset anyone but I believe it's just another money maker for the machine. The music industry saw the potential to pick the faithfuls' pockets by tapping that genre. They may have some talented people involved in the music is very lowest common denominator when compared to other nonclassical music. My advice to the children of God are to get your hands on some Bach cantatas or the passions... Bach was the greatest Christian artist of all time.


----------



## hpowders

Funny...I could have sworn it was Charles Ives. You learn something new every day!


----------



## Manxfeeder

I've already stated my position on this subject, but for all that is decent and holy, did this have to happen?


----------



## SalieriIsInnocent

I'm a christian, and while I enjoy music like Bach's and Mozart's church music simply for it's sheer beauty, I don't listen to it necessarily for religious reasons. I connect more to simple hymns. I'm not too big on the new poppy "Wave you hands for Jesus" music, because I don't really get a hold of anything with that music. I was raised in a church with no instruments and a stack of worn books. Instruments weren't shunned, I guess we just couldn't afford them. 

I was raised on bluegrass gospel, so that's what I lean to. I'm also not very big on the suit wearing gospel quartets. I absolutely love the old black gospel groups of the 30's to 50's.


----------



## Fugue Meister

As I see it traditional hymns are sometimes very worthy. I especially enjoyed "It is well with my soul" if memory serves me correctly.


----------



## SixFootScowl

SalieriIsInnocent said:


> I absolutely love the old black gospel groups of the 30's to 50's.


Bet you would love this album. Here is one of the songs:


----------



## science

Manxfeeder said:


> I've already stated my position on this subject, but for all that is decent and holy, did this have to happen?


Yes, that had to happen.


----------



## science

For perspective:


----------



## science

Ah! Here's the one I was looking for when I found that:






I _love_ this one.


----------



## SalieriIsInnocent

Fugue Meister said:


> As I see it traditional hymns are sometimes very worthy. I especially enjoyed "It is well with my soul" if memory serves me correctly.


I loved a lot of hymns before I became a Christian. I grew up hearing the Stanley Brothers at my grandparents house.






I can't hear The Stanley Brothers without thinking of my Grandparents and the beautiful woods of Kentucky where I was born and raised.


----------



## science

I am a man of constant sorrow; I've seen trouble all my days.

I bid farewell to old



SalieriIsInnocent said:


> Kentucky where I was born and raised


(The place where he-eeeeee was born and raised.)


----------



## revdrdave

And then there's this: Some of the most profoundly religious experiences I've ever had involved neither CCM, hymns, gospel, or Bach. They involved Vaughan William's Fifth Symphony or Sibelius' Sixth or Gorecki's _Symphony of Sorrowful Songs_ or the slow movement of Ravel's Piano Concerto in G. Certainly CCM and Bach cantatas, different as they are, are/were written to facilitate worship but inasmuch as worship is as much a function of the Holy Spirit as it is of me, and given the fact said Spirit can use any music to speak to me, I don't need so-called "worship music" to give glory to God anymore than I need to be in a church instead of my study or in my car. To that extent, the distinction between CCM and classical music isn't one I necessarily make.


----------



## Jobis

revdrdave said:


> And then there's this: Some of the most profoundly religious experiences I've ever had involved neither CCM, hymns, gospel, or Bach. They involved Vaughan William's Fifth Symphony or Sibelius' Sixth or Gorecki's _Symphony of Sorrowful Songs_ or the slow movement of Ravel's Piano Concerto in G. Certainly CCM and Bach cantatas, different as they are, are/were written to facilitate worship but inasmuch as worship is as much a function of the Holy Spirit as it is of me, and given the fact said Spirit can use any music to speak to me, I don't need so-called "worship music" to give glory to God anymore than I need to be in a church instead of my study or in my car. To that extent, the distinction between CCM and classical music isn't one I necessarily make.


Aye there does seem something a bit arbitrary and forced about CCM.

While, in Catholic and Orthodox churches there is a feeling of something immensely important in being in the presence of the Eucharist, in the happy clappy guitar-led churches I can't find anything necessarily exceptional or more profound than daily Christian life in such services, it feels as though it somewhat marginalises worship and spirituality by making it a once-a-week affair.


----------



## Stargazer

When people tell me they listen to Christian music, I say "So do I...but not the kind you're thinking of". I think that Christian contemporary is terrible. Most of it has very little of interest going on musically, and the lyrics are mostly just repetitions about how Jesus is great. And if you start to get into the strange territory of Christian rap....that just makes me cringe. And in case you were wondering:






I still haven't figured out why he's pulling up to the club in a Bentley, when that directly violates one of the teachings in the Bible.

I'll take my Mass in B Minor or All-night Vigil any day!


----------



## DavidA

Stargazer said:


> When people tell me they listen to Christian music, I say "So do I...but not the kind you're thinking of". I think that Christian contemporary is terrible. Most of it has very little of interest going on musically, and the lyrics are mostly just repetitions about how Jesus is great. And if you start to get into the strange territory of Christian rap....that just makes me cringe. And in case you were wondering:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I still haven't figured out why he's pulling up to the club in a Bentley, when that directly violates one of the teachings in the Bible.
> 
> I'll take my Mass in B Minor or All-night Vigil any day!


But if the conductor shows up in a Bentley you don't listen to the Mass either?


----------



## TravisTouchdown

science said:


> I am a man of constant sorrow; I've seen trouble all my days.
> 
> I bid farewell to old
> 
> (The place where he-eeeeee was born and raised.)


I feel so stupid believing George Clooney had Dan Tyminski's chords.


----------



## TravisTouchdown

I have "Stabat Mater" on replay on my HTC, and I have sung in a couple of church choirs. It feels different - we are talking about pieces that have historical distance, and the listening value is a pure technical one. It could be Disney songs for all I care. But when we are talking about connecting with songs, experiencing music, that is impossible for me with CCM. I feel embarrassed to even click on youtube links or listen to people like Phil Stacey that featured on american idol. I mean, his "you're not shaken" is a good tune, he sings exceptionally well - its just that it's too Christian. I can sing something a couple of hundered years old, and who cares, but if I sing or listen to anything contemporary, I am afraid that people will believe I actually mean it. I'd rather sing songs about beating up kids and sleeping with prostitutes than CCM.


----------



## Lukecash12

SongQuestion said:


> I am a Christian who personally does not like it and I think "Christian Rock" is anything but Christian, but I am sure many others on here will disagree with me. I am just curious as to the opinions of those on this forum, particularly since it isn't Christian. I can provide arguments for why I do not like it if anyone is curious .


If I'm at a worship service and I see people worshiping then I don't see what the problem is. I didn't come to church to consider the fine arts.


----------



## Lukecash12

Stargazer said:


> When people tell me they listen to Christian music, I say "So do I...but not the kind you're thinking of". I think that Christian contemporary is terrible. Most of it has very little of interest going on musically, and the lyrics are mostly just repetitions about how Jesus is great. And if you start to get into the strange territory of Christian rap....that just makes me cringe. And in case you were wondering:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I still haven't figured out why he's pulling up to the club in a Bentley, when that directly violates one of the teachings in the Bible.
> 
> I'll take my Mass in B Minor or All-night Vigil any day!


Yeah, the lyrics to Christian songs are just a lot of mush nowadays. When I listen to _I've Got a Mansion_, _That Old Rugged Cross_, and _The Great Speckled Bird_ I actually feel sermonized. I can supply the feelings myself, thank you very much mr. songwriter.

But that doesn't mean it's a bad thing that people have a positive response to it during church. We're all about to sit down to a sermon anyways.


----------



## Lukecash12

Jobis said:


> Aye there does seem something a bit arbitrary and forced about CCM.
> 
> While, in Catholic and Orthodox churches there is a feeling of something immensely important in being in the presence of the Eucharist, in the happy clappy guitar-led churches I can't find anything necessarily exceptional or more profound than daily Christian life in such services, it feels as though it somewhat marginalises worship and spirituality by making it a once-a-week affair.


It only marginalizes it for you. Not everyone has to feel like a big smarty pants to feel something substantial, guys. Have you folks ever heard of a cowboy church?


----------



## hpowders

For me Aaron Copland's Appalachian Spring and Charles Ives' Concord Piano Sonata produce that "close to God" feeling. I don't get that from Handel's Messiah.


----------



## Krummhorn

I see those 'happy clappy' type of worship services a serious threat to my existence as a professional classical organist. I've seen to many church positions eliminated where the new pastor arrives, fires all the musicians, puts a for sale sign on the pipe organ, installs video screens, hires a 5 piece "band", and does away with all traditions. 

All those super bright stage lights, and the incessant need to pump up the volume (amps) on all the musicians right up to the point of total distortion, is very distracting, and causes a headache, especially the pounding thump-a-thump of the drummer. 

As a result of the above, in most all cases, the church membership declined and eventually the church closed its doors. 

Call me old school if you like, but I much prefer the traditional "high church" with all the bells and smells. For me, there is nothing more inspirational or uplifting than that ... well, other than my wife that is. 

We tried "happy clappy" in our church - it failed miserably ... attendance dropped to almost zero, and fortunately we had enough foresight to stop that service and do something more traditional with it, and attendance returned back to normal. 

I also like quiet services ... Taize comes to mind ... our church doesn't do those anymore, which is a real shame. 

Kh ♫


----------



## TravisTouchdown

Krummhorn said:


> All those super bright stage lights, and the incessant need to pump up the volume (amps) on all the musicians right up to the point of total distortion, is very distracting, and causes a headache, especially the pounding thump-a-thump of the drummer.
> 
> As a result of the above, in most all cases, the church membership declined and eventually the church closed its doors.


Interesting.

The Church is falling freely where I'm at, and attendance is miserable. If the Church doesn't improve it's appeal to younger audiences, it will die out within a few generations, tops.

I'm not saying that Iggy Azaela needs to be on constant playback during service, or that you'd be better off with rave parties on Sunday, but if you guys don't change market strategy, in some areas of the modern western world, you're gonna be in for some serious downsizing to a small handful of churches working as live-show museums.


----------



## echo

TravisTouchdown said:


> Interesting.
> 
> The Church is falling freely where I'm at, and attendance is miserable. If the Church doesn't improve it's appeal to younger audiences, it will die out within a few generations, tops.
> 
> I'm not saying that Iggy Azaela needs to be on constant playback during service, or that you'd be better off with rave parties on Sunday, but if you guys don't change market strategy, in some areas of the modern western world, you're gonna be in for some serious downsizing to a small handful of churches working as live-show museums.


from essence comes form --- just stay pure


----------



## Krummhorn

TravisTouchdown said:


> Interesting.
> 
> The Church is falling freely where I'm at, and attendance is miserable. If the Church doesn't improve it's appeal to younger audiences, it will die out within a few generations, tops.


Granted, church membership is declining, but that has been due to too many of the same synod church bodies being built in close proximity to each other. 28 years ago our membership peaked at 1,750; today it is around 490, but we remain healthy and solvent because we are totally debt free.

We have a very active music program ... and a very popular concert series each year with capacity audiences. We do have a "convergent" worship service where we employ some of the old with the new, and will have a bassist and drummer periodically for the festival services. We use both piano and organ for the convergent service, and the hymns are more upbeat, but not at all happy clappy.

Kh ♫


----------



## Lukecash12

Krummhorn said:


> Granted, church membership is declining, but that has been due to too many of the same synod church bodies being built in close proximity to each other. 28 years ago our membership peaked at 1,750; today it is around 490, but we remain healthy and solvent because we are totally debt free.
> 
> We have a very active music program ... and a very popular concert series each year with capacity audiences. We do have a "convergent" worship service where we employ some of the old with the new, and will have a bassist and drummer periodically for the festival services. We use both piano and organ for the convergent service, and the hymns are more upbeat, but not at all happy clappy.
> 
> Kh ♫


Hahahahaha, you call that small? I go to a freewill baptist church and we fluctuate from 12-20 people during a service, but we're very happy and do what we can for the community. Most importantly we're very much of a family and when we take on someone we can give him/her personal attention, and have even been able to turn around the lives of a number of drug addicts. A few of them moved but one of them is still a member and he's a great friend.


----------



## SixFootScowl

Lukecash12 said:


> Hahahahaha, you call that small? I go to a freewill baptist church and we fluctuate from 12-20 people during a service, but we're very happy and do what we can for the community. Most importantly we're very much of a family and when we take on someone we can give him/her personal attention, and have even been able to turn around the lives of a number of drug addicts. A few of them moved but one of them is still a member and he's a great friend.


Yep, I go to a Lutheran urban mission church. We have about 40 attending Spanish services and about 12 attending English services. We have to deal with drug addicts, alcoholics, etc.


----------



## DavidA

Krummhorn said:


> I see those 'happy clappy' type of worship services a serious threat to my existence as a professional classical organist. I've seen to many church positions eliminated where the new pastor arrives, fires all the musicians, puts a for sale sign on the pipe organ, installs video screens, hires a 5 piece "band", and does away with all traditions.
> 
> All those super bright stage lights, and the incessant need to pump up the volume (amps) on all the musicians right up to the point of total distortion, is very distracting, and causes a headache, especially the pounding thump-a-thump of the drummer.
> 
> As a result of the above, in most all cases, the church membership declined and eventually the church closed its doors.
> 
> Call me old school if you like, but I much prefer the traditional "high church" with all the bells and smells. For me, there is nothing more inspirational or uplifting than that ... well, other than my wife that is.
> 
> We tried "happy clappy" in our church - it failed miserably ... attendance dropped to almost zero, and fortunately we had enough foresight to stop that service and do something more traditional with it, and attendance returned back to normal.
> 
> I also like quiet services ... Taize comes to mind ... our church doesn't do those anymore, which is a real shame.
> 
> Kh ♫


You will actually find the opposite is true. The churches despised as being 'happy clappy' are mostly the ones that are growing as they use music which is relevant to the masses. This is, of course, what the great hymn writers have done since Martin Luther - fitted sacred words to contemporary tunes.


----------



## Blake

DavidA said:


> You will actually find the opposite is true. The churches despised as being 'happy clappy' are mostly the ones that are growing as they use music which is relevant to the masses. This is, of course, what the great hymn writers have done since Martin Luther - fitted sacred words to contemporary tunes.


And what a great message they send. "I indulge in all of my blinded pleasures, but Jesus is my boyfriend... and that should save me from the rest of my beliefs. Yea!."

Hoho, I'm only slightly serious. Half joking. The other half might mean something... or the other.


----------



## Cosmos

#bringbackbaroque is my opinion

Or at least traditional hymns. I never liked going to church and hearing upbeat drums and a pop-ish chord progression.

Then again, I'm not religious anymore so I really don't care much what music they play


----------



## DavidA

Vesuvius said:


> And what a great message they send. "I indulge in all of my blinded pleasures, but Jesus is my boyfriend... and that should save me from the rest of my beliefs. Yea!."
> 
> Hoho, I'm only slightly serious. Half joking. The other half might mean something... or the other.


Sorry! You're just wrong and misinformed!


----------



## Blake

Yea, people keep telling me that....


----------



## Lukky

Rock or Pop and other were not created for God but for a human. This type of music does not belong to God and should never be played in church.


----------



## SixFootScowl

Lukky said:


> Rock or Pop and other were not created for God but for a human. This type of music does not belong to God and should never be played in church.


You have a good point. It is not a worshipful music. One can use a more contemporary music in the church but it should not be a pop/rock beat in a worship service. Perhaps one guide is if the music makes you tap your foot to it, then it is probably not focusing on God but man through the music, in spite of the words.


----------



## Morimur

It's disturbing how our society has stupefied everything, including Christian music. And what's with the whole 'interpretative dancing' craze in churches? It's so ridiculous. I can't help but laugh whenever my local church stages one of these debacles.


----------



## Jobis

I'd actually like to see a ban on instruments at mass, besides the organ that is. Shame it couldn't really be enforced though. 

It would be worth it if I never had to hear a drum kit or a guitar in church ever again.


----------



## starthrower

Lukky said:


> Rock or Pop and other were not created for God but for a human. This type of music does not belong to God and should never be played in church.


Oh please! Where do you think soul music and R&B came from? It came from the black church musicians.


----------



## Jobis

starthrower said:


> Oh please! Where do you think soul music and R&B came from? It came from the black church musicians.


Not from Rock or pop, but from Jazz, the blues and most of all Negro Spirituals.


----------



## SixFootScowl

starthrower said:


> Oh please! Where do you think soul music and R&B came from? It came from the black church musicians.


Black church musicians who were often condemned by their churches for going over to "the Devil's music."


----------



## starthrower

Jobis said:


> Not from Rock or pop, but from Jazz, the blues and most of all Negro Spirituals.


Where do you think rock music is derived from? It comes from the blues. Who has the right to say people can't express themselves or worship singing any style of music? There is no devils music. Music comes from humans.


----------



## SixFootScowl

starthrower said:


> Where do you think rock music is derived from? It comes from the blues.


----------



## Antiquarian

Morimur said:


> It's disturbing how our society has stupefied everything, including Christian music. And what's with the whole 'interpretative dancing' craze in churches? It's so ridiculous. I can't help but laugh whenever my local church stages one of these debacles.


I agree most wholeheartedly with this. It's all part of the 'dumbing down' of America (and the UK), where 'feeling' and 'emotions' are more religiously correct than hymns that <gasp> might just contain references to doctrine that not all denominations may share. Christian music has become less cerebral as a consequence.


----------



## starthrower

"Mega-Church" You can't get more American than that! Let's super size it!


----------



## Jobis

starthrower said:


> Where do you think rock music is derived from? It comes from the blues. Who has the right to say people can't express themselves or worship singing any style of music? There is no devils music. Music comes from humans.


Rock music is a different vein, but I object to it in mass as I would object to gospel and soul bands playing at mass. What goes on in smaller house churches doesn't concern me; and if it gets people to worship that's good, but its not a source of beauty like the music of say, Bach or Palestrina, which have a divine beauty to them.


----------



## Taggart

starthrower said:


> Where do you think rock music is derived from? It comes from the blues. Who has the right to say people can't express themselves or worship singing any style of music? There is no devils music. Music comes from humans.


And where do the blues come from? Certainly one of the roots of Gospel singing and the call and response pattern of blues can be found in the Gaelic Psalm singing of the Hebrides according to Professor Willie Ruff of Yale.

More on this from the Scotsman and the Independent.

Certainly the 17th Century puritans were known for singing psalms to hornpipes.


----------



## Ingélou

Adapting secular tunes for religious purposes is a habit that goes right back to medieval times. In the sixteenth century we have the Scottish 'Gude & Godlie Ballatis' that does just that. 
I agree that there is no 'devil's music'. Music of all sorts can be used in worship in or out of church - and if people find that rock music draws them nearer to God, I wish them joy.
But as a matter of personal taste, I prefer sacred classical music, traditional hymns, or more modern hymns that are somehow numinous, rather than chatty or matey.


----------



## starthrower

Taggart said:


> And where do the blues come from? Certainly one of the roots of Gospel singing and the call and response pattern of blues can be found in the Gaelic Psalm singing of the Hebrides according to Professor Willie Ruff of Yale.
> 
> More on this from the Scotsman and the Independent.
> 
> Certainly the 17th Century puritans were known for singing psalms to hornpipes.


It's all connected, isn't it? According to Ali Farke Toure, the late African guitarist, the American blues of singers like John Lee Hooker is similar to the traditional music he heard in his hometown of Timbuktu.

And I'm sure the people of Scotland brought their music to America and found its way to the Appalachian region. I rarely go to church, and I probably wouldn't want to hear rock music if I did. It depends on the circumstances. If I went to an old cathedral, I would want to hear the pipe organ.

My father watches Jimmy Swaggart just for the music. He has a good band with a very tasty electric guitarist. But a lot of what he plays sounds like 60s/early 70s country music. The same stuff his cousin Mickey Gilley does with secular lyrics. And Swaggart's other cousin is the notorious "devil's music" pioneer Jerry Lee Lewis.


----------



## Wood

Taggart said:


> And where do the blues come from? Certainly one of the roots of Gospel singing and the call and response pattern of blues can be found in the Gaelic Psalm singing of the Hebrides according to Professor Willie Ruff of Yale.
> 
> More on this from the Scotsman and the Independent.
> 
> Certainly the 17th Century puritans were known for singing psalms to hornpipes.


This is brilliant on several levels. Firstly, the music itself. I'm not surprised they keep the pubs and shops closed on Sunday in North Uist. Everyone should be in church to hear this.

Secondly, the idea that much of the non-classical music we listen to today stems from a Scottish island, and finally that there is a bigger population of Gaels in the US today than in Scotland, and that they are mainly black.

The Homecoming campaign ( http://www.visitscotland.com/see-do/homecoming-scotland-2014 ) could have some interesting and fabulous unintended consequences.


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## starthrower

PS Speaking of Willie Ruff, his autobiography A Call To Assembly is fantastic! One of the most inspiring and fascinating memoirs I've ever read. I need to reread it, because it's been many years. But I don't own a copy. When he visited Russia during the height of the cold war, the music the people wanted to hear was the blues. They wanted that earthy, rural Delta Blues filled with pain and longing.


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## violadude

It might actually make me want to go to Church if they replaced contemporary christian rock/pop with music by Machaut and Josquin


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## pmsummer

I agree with C. S. Lewis who said, in response to fan's letter stating we need more Christian writers like him, "We don't need more Christian writers. We need more great writers who are Christian."

That being said, _some_ CCM is wonderful soul-inspiring art, whereas some Romantic Period Classical Music is saccharine sweet dreck.


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## starthrower

One really good Christian music album I heard a long time ago is called The Painter, by the Talbot Brothers. It has some definite classical influences in that John Michael Talbot plays a nylon string acoustic guitar, and he's a great player. There are some string arrangements, and the vocal harmonies on this record are astounding. These guys are great singers, and the harmonies are stacked up to the stratosphere. There's no rock music on this album. Seems JMT is playing a steel string acoustic on these tracks.


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## SixFootScowl

Here is a CCM song that I REALLY like a lot:


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## pmsummer

CCM at its best, IMHO.










DEPTH OF MERCY
*Red Mountain*

RMCHP


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## DavidA

Jobis said:


> I'd actually like to see a ban on instruments at mass, besides the organ that is. Shame it couldn't really be enforced though.
> 
> It would be worth it if I never had to hear a drum kit or a guitar in church ever again.


Interesting! Of course, Jesus and his disciples had an organ to worship by?


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## starthrower

DavidA said:


> Interesting! Of course, Jesus and his disciples had an organ to worship by?


Those guys would get kicked out of any church.


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## DavidA

starthrower said:


> Those guys would get kicked out of any church.


Not any church but certainly some churches!


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## SixFootScowl

This is not CCM, but it shows what wonderful things can happen when a major rock star is born again and reworks an old song (the new message starts about 1 minute in, also killer guitar solo in there):


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## millionrainbows

I noticed when I went into Hobby Lobby to look at art supplies, how that contemporary Christian music was playing as the muzak. There was a contemporary arrangement of "There Is A Fountain Filled With Blood" which struck me as somewhat absurd. I was probably the only person in there who recognized the tune. I became aware of this hymn after hearing Charles Ives use it several times in various works.


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## regenmusic

I listen almost exclusively for CCM to a select group of black gospel choirs of the 1960s and 1970s.
Wisconsin, Institutional, Cosmopolitian, NY Community Choir, You can find a few of my youtube
playlists by searching for "Wisconsin and Cosmopolitian choir playlist" on youtube, and see a few
of my channels there. This music always has an upbeat energy, excellent playing, and is innovative.
It's also very heartfelt.


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