# What do you think of Bernstein's Mahler



## DavidA

One of the great champions of Mahler, Bernstein made two complete cycles of the symphonies and numerous other recordings. For some his Mahler really worked while others found it over-wrought. Opinions? Noted recordings? How does each cycle compare?


----------



## Larkenfield

I believe the Bernstein NYP recordings are excellent and worthy of any collection. There's a wonderful sense of discovery in them that I don't find in most of his later perhaps more self-indulgent DG performances.

Bernstein was incredibly important to the Mahler revival that started in 1960 in NY, the centennial celebration of the composer's birth. That was a landmark event because Bruno Walter was there, a colleague and friend of Mahler, Mahler's former wife Alma was there, as well as members of the New York Phil who had played with Mahler 50 years before. Bernstein had also talked about Mahler on one of his Young People's Concerts that was viewed by millions of people on network television.

Bernstein very much identified with Mahler because Mahler was a conductor/composer just like Bernstein and all the complications that can result from that in a musician's life. Eventually, it seems, Bernstein so identified with Mahler that he talked as if he _was_ Mahler... I also liked how Bruno Walter played Mahler, sounding highly idiomatic to me in his recordings of the 1st and 2nd Symphonies with the CSO, but unfortunately he never recorded a complete cycle of the symphonies, perhaps because he thought the 6th was just too tragic and bleak to perform. He never did, but Bernstein went ahead and of course did them all even if he wasn't the first to do a complete cycle. That honor went to Maurice Abravanel and the Utah Symphony and his fine performances that are still worth hearing today.

By Mahler revival, I'm not suggesting that his symphonies weren't being performed at all after WW2. But this time, there was a steady momentum that started to build and I believe it has continued ever since. It should not be forgotten that Mahler was not approved of (being Jewish) or performed in Europe under the Nazis. He was banned. So there was a break in the continuity of Mahler being played during those terrible years in Germany in Europe under Hitler. The Mahler centennial was like putting the stamp of approval on the person and these remarkable symphonies.


----------



## Enthusiast

Bernstein was a great Mahler conductor. His first set has many accounts that are among the very best but probably now there is not one that would be in my top 3 for that work. Still, it is a great set and has a lot of very rewarding music making in it - especially 1, 2, 3, 4 and 7).

His second set was more mixed as he sometimes interfered with the music's flow to enjoy an exaggerated moment but it also included great accounts of 5 and 6 (which has been a little weak in his first set), an excellent 4 (with a unique approach to problem of finding a naive and innocent sounding singer) and a 9th that I really do not like!

And his two DLVDEs are both among the very best. 

Over-wrought? Well, yes, he was an emotional conductor always and Mahler offered plenty of scope for that side of his character. It isn't the only way with Mahler but it worked well when he had it under control (which was most of the time). I love Boulez's Mahler, too, and he gets criticised for being unemotional. I find nothing missing in most of Boulez's Mahler and nothing that shouldn't be there in most of Bernstein's. The thing to avoid in Mahler, I think, is blandness and lack of character.


----------



## CnC Bartok

I find it very difficult to disagree with anything that has been written above, and yet I am not really a huge fan of Bernstein's way with Mahler. There are some very exciting performances in his two completed cycles, plus some other recordings, but I have found those moments where he didn't "have it under control" to be disruptive, and I find overall there are Mahler interpreters I prefer. I think the ebb and flow of that final Ninth in the finale is a good example of what I mean.

I would have loved to have seen him doing Mahler in concert, that would have been an experience, but there can be a "bit too much Bernstein" in his readings, that get a bit irritating on repeated listening, as exciting and as "right" as they may seem and sound at the right time. What did he do for Mahler? Well, he was a champion at the right time, and he deserves every ounce of kudos and respect for keeping Mahler in the public eye/ear when he could have fallen out of favour (or not have got himself "discovered", an exaggeration but never mind!)

Like Enthusiast, I find his second, DGG, set more variable, the highlights of the CBS cycle are probably 3 and 7, and the second, 4 and 5 (I too like the treble idea!). His Tenor/Baritone DLvdE on Decca, is indeed among the very best.

Basically I have slowly gone off Bernstein, and found others more to my taste. I would certainly not say he's rubbish; that would be an extremely stupid thing to say, but I do feel others have usurped him chez moi!


----------



## Barbebleu

The first Mahler symphony I ever heard was Bernstein playing the 2nd and I was an instant convert to Mahler so he must having been doing something right for me!


----------



## MarkW

Heard most of the NYPO ones as they came out, but none of them was among my favorite as I got to know other contemporaneous ones (Walter 1st, Kletski 4th, Barbirolli 9th, Klemperer Das Lied . . .). Too wild. Haven't heard any of the DGG ones. Heard second hand that his Adagietto of the Fifith at RFK's funeral began the trend to do it impossibly/unplayably slowly.


----------



## mbhaub

Actually, Bernstein made Three sets of Mahler symphonies: the legendary Columbia recordings, then the video collection mostly from Vienna, then the later DG set. There's no doubt he identified closely with Mahler, and his never ending promotion of the composer did a lot to popularize him. Lenny was conducting the Resurrection from an early age, even in war zones in Israel. His first go at the 7th was the recording that hooked me on Mahler, but as I got to know other conductors I realized that I was more attuned to other approaches.


----------



## Merl

Some great comments above and I echo many of the sentiments about Bernstein's NY Mahler. It's a set I've always enjoyed possibly as it was (along with Kubelik) my introduction to all the Mahler symphonies. Although most performances in it aren't in my top ten they're all universally good or better accounts. It's historical significance is indisputable. As far as his second cycle is concerned I still enjoy some performances but it's far more OTT, idiosyncratic and wayward but I do love the first and 5th from that set. Otherwise I'd rather have his first cycle any day.


----------



## Brahmsianhorn

I don't know what over-wrought means. It either works or it doesn't. Bernstein was either hit or miss, and you have to admire him for trying even when the results sometimes misfired.

I consider Bernstein's Mahler to be above-average but not quite on the interpretive level of Barbirolli, Horenstein, Klemperer, or Walter. I enjoy his DG performances as these generally are less careful than his NYPO performances sounded to my ear (which is funny because others call the NYPO performances "wild").

He did excellent, reference versions on DG of the 1st, 5th, and 6th. Many prefer the NYPO 6th, and the NYPO 7th is considered authoritative by many others (though not myself). The NYPO 3rd is also very good but to my ear does not quite plumb the depths like Horenstein and Barbirolli.

My personal favorite Bernstein Mahler recording is his 1975 8th recorded live in Salzburg. This was issued on DG in the absence of an 8th from his 1980s cycle. I think Bernstein here makes as good a case for this problematic work as any. It is my top version in modern stereo. Solti's famous version blazes impressively, but Bernstein gets more to the heart of the work and unearths the beautiful aspects.


----------



## DavidA

Terrific versions of Mis 1 and 5 with the VPO live. Bernstein at his most convincing in both. His live 9 with the RCO is problematic for an interminable last movement with tempi stretched to breaking point. Might have worked n concert but not for repeated listening. 
A great Lied von Der Erde with VPO even if I do prefer a mezzo. Perhaps the best conducted LVDE on disc. Tremendous stuff! .


----------



## SONNET CLV

The first Bernstein Mahler I ever heard was the London LP recording of _Das Lied_.









I recall thinking it sounded "strange", not like other Mahler works I had ever heard. It was atmospheric and mysterious, the orchestra dark and suggestive.

I since have heard other interpretations but none so "strange" in sound. Needless to say I nearly wore out that_ Das Lied _disc, which still resides in my collection. One of the noisier old-time discs I have (from playing it so often) but one which is still "strange" sounding, and beautiful.

I have both the Columbia and the DG sets of Bernstein's Mahler, and I appreciate them both in their own ways. But it is that London _Das Lied von der Erde_ which leaves a mark in my memory as one of the great interpretations by Bernstein or by anyone of anything.


----------



## chill782002

I prefer the first cycle over the second cycle. It seems to me to have more conviction behind it. There are other conductors that I prefer in Mahler to Bernstein (Horenstein, Kondrashin, Leinsdorf and Scherchen spring to mind) but I'm definitely not in the "Bernstein's Mahler is awful" camp.


----------



## Enthusiast

In the above comments, one of the more controversial of his later (DG) set seems to have been 6. Even among those who recognise that some of the DG recordings are excellent there are those who single 6 out for praise and those who don't rate it. I'm in the former group. It is a no holds barred account, grim and tough, but it is certainly not wayward or indulgent. Not one for every day but a great performance, I think, and perhaps even Bernstein's greatest Mahler recording.


----------



## realdealblues

Bernstein is top tier for me, he was the total package and all his cycles are great. The only real dud is the New York 5th and the reason isn't the conception but the playing of the orchestra itself. The timpanist gets totally lost in the Scherzo and there's numerous flubs, but beyond that all the rest are great.

Bernstein's first cycle was obviously revolutionary at it's time because you didn't get complete Mahler cycles, you had various studio recordings and live recordings. Bernstein's contribution to Mahler becoming as well heard as he has become today can't be denied in my opinion and he was obviously a major force to be reckoned with.

Bernstein is called idiosyncratic or self indulgent with his Mahler but to me he follows more of the small notes that Mahler made than almost any other conductor of his music without every being considered a micro manager. I see a lot of pointing to Mahlerians just before him as being superior, but guys like Klemperer and Walter also gave us less than half the Symphonies on record to even judge by and those that they did don't blow Bernstein out of the water. Bernstein's DG 1st is every bit was wonderful as any of Walter's recordings just as his 2nd was every bit was amazing as Klemperer's. I might prefer Klemperer's drive in the 1st movement of the 2nd symphony, but Bernstein's isn't any less correct and powerful in it's own way. And others, such as Mitropoulos, Horenstein and especially Barbirolli I find over-rated in comparison. Bernstein was able to realize Mahler’s directives in not only a technically superior way but also with much more class, charm and style. Bernstein's Mahler provides us with extremes of color and excitement and yet never loses the structure and great proportions. And I'm not saying Mitropoulos and Horenstein couldn't conduct a great Mahler, they made some good recordings, but Bernstein was able to give us more of the whole picture of Mahler, again in my opinion. Barbirolli ignored so many key directives from Mahler and was so stiff in rhythm and so lacking of shifting tempos and ignoring the marked tempo altogether that I sometimes wonder if he wasn't asleep or reading something else at the same time.

Mahlerians will debate on these things until the end of time, but Bernstein was the whole package in my book. His cycles are entirely valid views of the works and in many ways achieve more detail, create more color, allow us to hear Mahler in all his extremes, and show us his vast structures more clearly than most.


----------



## starthrower

realdealblues said:


> Bernstein is called idiosyncratic or self indulgent with his Mahler but to me he follows more of the small notes that Mahler made than almost any other conductor of his music without every being considered a micro manager.


I've seen that self indulgent, more Bernstein than Mahler accusation many times on this forum and I've always brushed it off as bunk. Bernstein was a brilliant musician and he had far too much respect and reverence for the music to be flippant about it in any way.


----------



## Reichstag aus LICHT

mbhaub said:


> Actually, Bernstein made Three sets of Mahler symphonies: the legendary Columbia recordings, then the video collection mostly from Vienna, then the later DG set.


I don't own the video set but, from what I've seen of it on YouTube, it's excellent. Aside from the splendid performances, it's evident from the visuals just how much Bernstein immersed himself in the music; it's quite extraordinary to watch.


----------



## Xaltotun

Love it, you can feel how much he loves the music, how it's so important to him. I do agree there's a lot of Bernstein in it but I don't mind. I just can't bring myself to criticize someone who has this much passion. It probably shouldn't be your only Mahler. But if you skip it, you're definitely missing something unique and beautiful.


----------



## DrSardonicus

Just picked up Bernstein's first set. What are the standout recordings from this first cycle?


----------



## DavidA

DrSardonicus said:


> Just picked up Bernstein's first set. What are the standout recordings from this first cycle?


Certainly no 3 which is a classic.


----------



## Reichstag aus LICHT

DrSardonicus said:


> Just picked up Bernstein's first set. What are the standout recordings from this first cycle?


3 and 7 for me.


----------



## Brahmsianhorn

3 for me as well, but otherwise I prefer the DG set


----------



## Bulldog

Bernstein offers highly emotional readings which are great when I'm looking for such interpretations.


----------



## NLAdriaan

Mahler 1 with the RCO (DG) is the Bernstein-reading in my best of Mahler list.

Back in the eighties, I went to some of the Bernstein recorded concerts in Amsterdam (1, 4, 9) for the Mahler DG cycle. After the 9th, which was quite an experience, I got the lucky privilege to attend a drink with Bernstein. when I heartfelt complemented him on the performance (while he was sipping whisky from his own personal metal cup, seemed to be a personal request), he hugged me as we sort of celebrated Mahler. A great extravert and emotional human being, Bernstein was. A true prophet of classical music, especially in the US on TV.


----------



## flamencosketches

Bump for an interpreter and composer I have grown very fond of in these past few months.

I am new to Mahler, and have not heard terribly many interpretations of any of his symphonies. In fact, I have not heard all of his symphonies (still need to hear 3, 7, and 9 in full). That being said, I have Bernstein's NYPO Mahler box on Sony. It's the only complete Mahler cycle in my library, but I'm completely satisfied with it. Perhaps in time I will want to branch out and get another cycle, but for now I will stick to getting individual recordings of certain symphonies for supplementary listening. (For example I want another 6th as Bernstein's is unbearably heavy – great, but a tough listen). 

My favorites are 2, 4, and 5. I saw someone on the previous page saying his 5 is not quite up to standards due to some poor performing on behalf of the musicians, but I like it best of those few I've heard, interpretively speaking. That Adagietto is just amazing.


----------



## flamencosketches

flamencosketches said:


> Bump for an interpreter and composer I have grown very fond of in these past few months.
> 
> I am new to Mahler, and have not heard terribly many interpretations of any of his symphonies. In fact, I have not heard all of his symphonies (still need to hear 3, 7, and 9 in full). That being said, I have Bernstein's NYPO Mahler box on Sony. It's the only complete Mahler cycle in my library, but I'm completely satisfied with it. Perhaps in time I will want to branch out and get another cycle, but for now I will stick to getting individual recordings of certain symphonies for supplementary listening. (For example I want another 6th as Bernstein's is unbearably heavy - great, but a tough listen).
> 
> My favorites are 2, 4, and 5. I saw someone on the previous page saying his 5 is not quite up to standards due to some poor performing on behalf of the musicians, but I like it best of those few I've heard, interpretively speaking. That Adagietto is just amazing.


Another bump 10 months down the line. By this point I am a card-carrying Mahlerian and proud to say it  Bernstein remains perhaps my favorite conductor, though I am gaining a lot of reverence and appreciation for the likes of Klemperer, Walter, Haitink, & Boulez as well in this great music.

I have spent countless hours with Bernstein's Sony set, his original traversal with the NYPO from the time that he was music director there (plus an excellent 8th with the London Symphony Orchestra). I've long been curious about the DG cycle, which some say is more variable, and others say is much better. I ordered it this morning, as I got it for a steal of a deal, so I will find out for myself soon enough.

Anyone listening to Lenny's Mahler lately? I have been trying to spend time with other Mahler conductors, for the most part, but I have been listening to that London 8th a bit.

Any thoughts on the DG cycle (highlights, opinions, etc) would be greatly appreciated!


----------



## Knorf

I don't think you'll find too much consensus on Bernstein's Mahler. But I'll share my thoughts. Bernstein's recordings are how I learned Mahler, and will always be dear to me. I'll list here as highlights those recordings from Bernstein's sets that I would recommend all Mahlerians should hear.

Highlights of the early set:
No. 3, No. 4, No. 6, No. 7, No. 9.

Highlights of the video set:
No. 6, _Das Lied von der Erde_, No. 9
(To be fair, I don't know all of this video cycle. But this _Das Lied_ is amazing, one of the best.)

Highlights of the late set:
No. 3 (probably my all-time time favorite No. 3), No. 5, No. 6, No. 7, No. 9

For some reason I can't put into words, yet, I've always preferred others than Bernstein in 1, 2 and 8. But maybe I should give those another chance.


----------



## flamencosketches

Knorf said:


> I don't think you'll find too much consensus on Bernstein's Mahler. But I'll share my thoughts. Bernstein's recordings are how I learned Mahler, and will always be dear to me. I'll list here as highlights those recordings from Bernstein's sets that I would recommend all Mahlerians should hear.
> 
> Highlights of the early set:
> No. 3, No. 4, No. 6, No. 7, No. 9.
> 
> Highlights of the video set:
> No. 6, _Das Lied von der Erde_, No. 9
> (To be fair, I don't know all of this video cycle. But this _Das Lied_ is amazing, one of the best.)
> 
> Highlights of the late set:
> No. 3 (probably my all-time time favorite No. 3), No. 5, No. 6, No. 7, No. 9
> 
> For some reason I can't put into words, yet, I've always preferred others than Bernstein in 1, 2 and 8. But maybe I should give those another chance.


There's a lot for me to agree with you about here. Bernstein is how I learned Mahler, too. I bought his Sony cycle last April, after years of thinking that I hated Mahler. I know, I'm late to the party, but what matters is that I'm here, now.  So I reckon I will always have a soft spot for his interpretations.

I prefer others in 1 & 2 as well, though I haven't heard enough 8s to know whether or not I prefer others in it, but his is quite good. I reckon you should give the London one another chance, possibly the Vienna as well, I've heard great things about it.

Who sings DLvdE on the video cycle? And what orchestra? I know almost nothing about the video cycle.

Really excited to check out 3, 5 & 6 from the DG cycle. 3 is a symphony I'm still working on fully appreciating. I love Bernstein's 5 with New York, as it's what I "imprinted" on. But I think there are a couple of flubs from the orchestra-what on earth was going on with that solo trumpeter I will never know. Sounds like s/he was having an off day. Probably the worst opening to that symphony I've ever heard, unfortunately.

Anyway, I do think Bernstein had a special connection with Mahler's music. I really wonder if any other conductors are able to maintain such a degree of consistency & continuity over all of Mahler's symphonies & songs. What do you think? Consistent, inconsistent...?


----------



## Ekim the Insubordinate

Bernstein is fine for me. His recording on DG of the 1st Symphony with the Concertgebouw was my gateway drug to Mahler, but I have found preferred recordings since then. I prefer his recording of the 10th on Sony, his 5th on DG, and his 9th on Sony. But for all others I prefer others, like Klemperer, Kubelik and Fischer. The only one I don't particularly like is his DG recording of the 2nd - just doesn't reverberate with me.


----------



## Knorf

The video of Bernstein conducting _Das Lied von der Erde_ is with the Israel Philharmonic, Christa Ludwig and René Kollo, soloists, 1972. I have the Deutsche Grammophon DVD.

ETA: oh, and Kubelík, Abbado, and Boulez all made consistent and good cycles. Which you might prefer is of course totally subjective. And I feel like I should give Tennstedt another shot, which I probably will. Some people also really like Haitink's sets, but what I've heard of those didn't speak to me too much. Again, I should probably give those another listen someday.

Fischer's set is outstanding, but will never be complete unless he changes his mind about no. 8. His DLvdE is due out late this year.


----------



## flamencosketches

Knorf said:


> The video of Bernstein conducting _Das Lied von der Erde_ is with the Israel Philharmonic, Christa Ludwig and René Kollo, soloists, 1972. I have the Deutsche Grammophon DVD.
> 
> ETA: oh, and Kubelík, Abbado, and Boulez all made consistent and good cycles. Which you might prefer is of course totally subjective. And I feel like I should give Tennstedt another shot, which I probably will. Some people also really like Haitink's sets, but what I've heard of those didn't speak to me too much. Again, I should probably give those another listen someday.
> 
> Fischer's set is outstanding, but will never be complete unless he changes his mind about no. 8. His DLvdE is due out late this year.


I appreciate your thoughts on it. I wasn't asking for a recommendation per se, just curious on what general thoughts are regarding consistency in Mahler cycles. With the common adage being that no one conductor can get all of Mahler right, it seems Bernstein came pretty damn close at least once.

And thanks, I knew he had recorded Das Lied with the IPO, Kollo & Ludwig (the same two soloists as Karajan's Berlin recording, no?)-but somehow I thought that recording was on Sony.

My curiosity about Fischer's Mahler grows and grows... ditto for Vänskä, another ongoing cycle, though I'm sure the two couldn't be more different from one another. It's too bad Fischer's offerings are so damn expensive, $25 per volume. Means it will probably be some time before I check it out, though it is high on the evergrowing list.


----------



## Knorf

The Iván Fischer Mahler recordings are $15 at Presto Classical. 
http://https://www.prestomusic.com/classical/search?search_query=Fischer+Mahler

Shipping costs are kind of high right now, though.

If Iván never does 8, maybe I'll pick up his brother Adam's, which has some good reviews.
ETA: eh, probably not.


----------



## Becca

Regarding Vänskä, I have seen very mixed reviews of his recordings so far. I get the impression he is doing it because everyone else does it or his recording company wants it, not because he has something particular to say (a criticism which can also be leveled at quite a few others!)


----------



## flamencosketches

Becca said:


> Regarding Vänskä, I have seen very mixed reviews of his recordings so far. I get the impression he is doing it because everyone else does it or his recording company wants it, not because he has something particular to say (a criticism which can also be leveled at quite a few others!)


That's a shame. His conducting, like it or not, is very unique. I thought it would have brought something different to the table in Mahler.

@Knorf, thanks for the tip. This is much cheaper than ebay.


----------



## Enthusiast

Becca said:


> Regarding Vänskä, I have seen very mixed reviews of his recordings so far. I get the impression he is doing it because everyone else does it or his recording company wants it, not because he has something particular to say (a criticism which can also be leveled at quite a few others!)


I think you've got that wrong, Becca. I'm not sure from your post whether you've actually listened to his Mahler but I can assure you he has a take on the works. Some are (for me) less successful than others and, of course, his rather forensic and cerebral approach to music is not for everyone. He is no barnstormer but he can still build up a considerable head of steam where the music requires (which is quite often in Mahler). I enjoy his 1st and 5th and his 4th has much going for it. One of the things I like about them is that he goes his own way and convinces. This is precious when you have so many recordings of the works. I haven't heard his controversial 2nd yet.


----------



## Enthusiast

Knorf said:


> The Iván Fischer Mahler recordings are $15 at Presto Classical.
> http://https://www.prestomusic.com/classical/search?search_query=Fischer+Mahler
> 
> Shipping costs are kind of high right now, though.
> 
> If Iván never does 8, maybe I'll pick up his brother Adam's, which has some good reviews.
> ETA: eh, probably not.


Adam Fischer's Mahler (what I have heard of it) is quite special. I like what I have heard of Ivan's but is is sometimes perhaps a little smooth and may not always plumb the depths as well as some others - at least that is how I hear it after a few playings. Adam brings something extra to the table.


----------



## Allegro Con Brio

Becca said:


> Regarding Vänskä, I have seen very mixed reviews of his recordings so far. I get the impression he is doing it because everyone else does it or his recording company wants it, not because he has something particular to say (a criticism which can also be leveled at quite a few others!)


I believe he has something particular to say about Mahler. It is true that he is on the "cerebral" side and tends to focus more on structure and clarity of sound (a la Szell) more than drama and angst, but it's not all that bad. His 6th is definitely one of my favorite more recent recordings of that symphony. I like his willingness to adopt tempi that might seem more "old-fashioned." In his most recent one, the 4th, Carolyn Sampson is one of the finest sopranos in the last movement I've ever heard.


----------



## Malx

Allegro Con Brio said:


> I believe he has something particular to say about Mahler. It is true that he is on the "cerebral" side and tends to focus more on structure and clarity of sound (a la Szell) more than drama and angst, but it's not all that bad. His 6th is definitely one of my favorite more recent recordings of that symphony. I like his willingness to adopt tempi that might seem more "old-fashioned." *In his most recent one, the 4th, Carolyn Sampson is one of the finest sopranos in the last movement I've ever heard*.


I agree, and I agree again (15 character rule)


----------



## millionrainbows

DavidA said:


> One of the great champions of Mahler, Bernstein made two complete cycles of the symphonies and numerous other recordings. *For some his Mahler really worked while others found it over-wrought. *Opinions? Noted recordings? How does each cycle compare?


Over-wrought? You got something against emotion? Did he emote too much, did he talk too loud? Was he too flamboyant, too "open" with his emotions? Was he too full of joy? Was he somehow "not manly enough?" Did he irritate people? Was he too pushy? Too gutsy? Too "in your face?" Did he have too much kutzpah?
And I'm doing you a big favor by asking!


----------



## Knorf

Ever heard of something called "chewing the scenery"? It happens in music, too.


----------



## Bill Cooke

with more time on my hands, thanks to a COVID-19 furlough, I've been concentrating on the Mahler symphonies that have never clicked with me before. Symphony No. 3 has been the biggest revelation so far, and the recoding I've been hooked on for the past week is Bernstein with the NYP. I can't believe I used to find this symphony boring.


----------



## Coach G

I like Bernstein's Mahler, especially the first cycle, but Dimitri Mitropuolos was championing Mahler before it became fashionable. Bernstein's first cycle seemed to follow Mitropoulos's passing, and he dedicated his first recording of Mahler 3 to the memory of Mitropoulos. Mitropoulos recorded some great Mahler, but those recordings are marred by inferior sound technology. Could it be that Bernstein's Mahler vision was, in part, the Mitropoulos vision come to full fruition?


----------



## Knorf

Bill Cooke said:


> with more time on my hands, thanks to a COVID-19 furlough, I've been concentrating on the Mahler symphonies that have never clicked with me before. Symphony No. 3 has been the biggest revelation so far, and the recoding I've been hooked on for the past week is Bernstein with the NYP. I can't believe I used to find this symphony boring.


Out of curiosity, the old one on Columbia/Sony, or the last one on Deutsche Grammophon? I like both very much, myself.


----------



## Bill Cooke

Knorf said:


> Out of curiosity, the old one on Columbia/Sony, or the last one on Deutsche Grammophon? I like both very much, myself.


The earlier one: Columbia/Sony.


----------



## Merl

Enthusiast said:


> I think you've got that wrong, Becca. I'm not sure from your post whether you've actually listened to his Mahler but I can assure you he has a take on the works. Some are (for me) less successful than others and, of course, his rather forensic and cerebral approach to music is not for everyone. He is no barnstormer but he can still build up a considerable head of steam where the music requires (which is quite often in Mahler). I enjoy his 1st and 5th and his 4th has much going for it. One of the things I like about them is that he goes his own way and convinces. This is precious when you have so many recordings of the works. I haven't heard his controversial 2nd yet.


Ive heard most of Vanska's Mahler and there's things I like (the textures) and things I don't (its a little lightweight). I hated the 5th, didn't mind the 6th, really enjoyed the 4th, thought the 1st was meh and the 2nd a bit wrong. However, at least he tries something new in Mahler and I agree with Enthusiast that he doesn't sound pretentious, it's just a different view. Like his Beethoven, it generally doesn't do it for me. As far as Adam Fischer is concerned I really like his Mahler. He comes at it much differently to Vanska. It's more impassioned and personal and whilst not heavy Mahler it works really well at times. Fischer's 1st, 7th and 8th are particularly good. I'm less enamoured with his 5th.

For anyone considering buying Vanska I'd advise listening first.


----------



## Enthusiast

^ Vanska's Mahler wouldn't be my first choice but with the collection I have now I find it to be among the most compelling (to me) on offer ... because it is effective but different to others that I have. It is the very opposite to heart on the shirtsleeve, closer to Boulez than Bernstein but different to both. I have too many Mahler recordings but when someone produces something that is powerful and tells me something new about any of these works then I am interested. I like Vanska's work a lot. I love that it is never showy and leaves the listener to explore the music. And I marvel that he is never bland. He does occasionally have a tendency to be a bit clinical but this rarely goes too far. I disagree strongly with the suggestion that it is lightweight - I find it the very opposite. But, like his Beethoven, it is far more cerebral than physical and I know many will fail to engage with it because of that. I agree that Adam Fisher's approach is very different and almost certainly has more mainstream appeal.


----------



## Knorf

I might have to give Vänskä/Minnesota another go.

ETA: I note that Adam Fischer's Mahler 1 from his 1989 Gustav Mahler Fest in Kassel is slated to make an appearance on SACD.
https://www.prestomusic.com/classical/products/8783346--mahler-symphony-no-1

That's caught my attention!


----------



## flamencosketches

Bill Cooke said:


> with more time on my hands, thanks to a COVID-19 furlough, I've been concentrating on the Mahler symphonies that have never clicked with me before. Symphony No. 3 has been the biggest revelation so far, and the recoding I've been hooked on for the past week is Bernstein with the NYP. I can't believe I used to find this symphony boring.


Yes, that is a great recording. I listened to it yesterday. I love the Bernstein/NY 4th as well-it's likely that you already know this, but the second movement of the 4th is a "Totentanz" styled after the painting in your avatar. The out-of-tune solo violin is inspired by death playing the fiddle.


----------



## Enthusiast

Merl said:


> Ive heard most of Vanska's Mahler and there's things I like (the textures) and things I don't (its a little lightweight). *I hated the 5th*, didn't mind the 6th, really enjoyed the 4th, thought the 1st was meh and the 2nd a bit wrong. However, at least he tries something new in Mahler and I agree with Enthusiast that he doesn't sound pretentious, it's just a different view. Like his Beethoven, it generally doesn't do it for me. As far as Adam Fischer is concerned I really like his Mahler. He comes at it much differently to Vanska. It's more impassioned and personal and whilst not heavy Mahler it works really well at times. Fischer's 1st, 7th and 8th are particularly good. I'm less enamoured with his 5th.


Excuse me coming back to you on this but I wondered if you might be right and that my memory of Vanska's 5th was rose tinted and I have now gotten around to playing it again. I still love it! And I still think it is the most striking Mahler 5 I have heard for a very long time. There are quite a few really good Mahler 5s but they often do not differ from each other that much (not like recordings of, say, Mahler 2 or Mahler 6) while this one seems to me to have many new insights and to deliver them to us in a really good overall performance. It is, actually, quite emotional and finds lots of new-to-me ways of expressing this. And, to cap it all, it has one of the best and most coherent last movements that we have had (many conductors - including Barbirolli IMO - can become a bit unstuck in it). That you hate it surprises me a lot! Could you say a little more about why.

BTW I also tried Adam Fischer's Mahler 5 again and agree with you that it is not one of his better Mahlers.


----------



## Merl

Enthusiast said:


> Excuse me coming back to you on this but I wondered if you might be right and that my memory of Vanska's 5th was rose tinted and I have now gotten around to playing it again. I still love it! And I still think it is the most striking Mahler 5 I have heard for a very long time. There are quite a few really good Mahler 5s but they often do not differ from each other that much (not like recordings of, say, Mahler 2 or Mahler 6) while this one seems to me to have many new insights and to deliver them to us in a really good overall performance. It is, actually, quite emotional and finds lots of new-to-me ways of expressing this. And, to cap it all, it has one of the best and most coherent last movements that we have had (many conductors - including Barbirolli IMO - can become a bit unstuck in it). That you hate it surprises me a lot! Could you say a little more about why.
> 
> BTW I also tried Adam Fischer's Mahler 5 again and agree with you that it is not one of his better Mahlers.


I dunno Enthusiast. I listened to it and it just left me cold. It was weird cos I was really pumped up for it after enjoying the 4th. My mind has gone blank as to the reason so what I'll do is I'll go and see if it's on Spotify and have a relisten to see what it was that I really didn't like. There was something...God, old age memory is annoying.


----------



## NLAdriaan

Merl said:


> I dunno Enthusiast. I listened to it and it just left me cold. It was weird cos I was really pumped up for it after enjoying the 4th. My mind has gone blank as to the reason so what I'll do is I'll go and see if it's on Spotify and have a relisten to see what it was that I really didn't like. There was something...God, old age memory is annoying.


You might try Boulez on DG for a pretty non-melodramatic Mahler 5


----------



## Merl

Right, as soon as I started playing it I remembered why I disliked it. Pacing.! It was the adagietto that really caught my attention the first time. Just checked 12 and a half minutes is broad to say the least and it felt way too slow! Listening to the first movement again (as I am right now) I got the same impression, that it's all a bit ill-fitting. The sound is superb but the performance doesn't convince me one bit. Sorry, I'm not trying to be harsh, it just doesn't hold together as a performance. When it's good in the second movement (I do like that) and in the scherzo you think it's gonna get better and then you hit the adagietto, which kills it dead. Finale's OK if I remember but it's just not for me. I seem to recall It got mixed reviews upon release didn't it? I think some reviewers loved it and others gave it a bit of a mauling. Some Mahler recordings attract polarise views like that (Karajan 5 and 6).


----------



## Enthusiast

^ Oh well - thanks for trying! I'm mystified as I find it one of the most coherent of all Mahler 5s. I can see the timings but I don't find it unusually slow, either! The adagietto is a little on the slow side but it is also rather sparse and chilled. It remains in my top 4 Mahler 5s along with Bernstein (Vienna), Boulez, Barbirolli (despite the flawed last movement) - each, of course, almost opposites to each other. There are few Mahler 5s that I dislike (although I hated Barshai's for some reason) but there are equally few that stand out.

BTW I heard that Vanska has resigned again from the Minnesota orchestra which may threaten the completion of his cycle.


----------



## Merl

Enthusiast said:


> ^ It remains in my top 4 Mahler 5s along with Bernstein (Vienna), Boulez, Barbirolli (despite the flawed last movement) - each, of course, almost opposites to each other. There are few Mahler 5s that I dislike (although I hated Barshai's for some reason) but there are equally few that stand out.


This is exactly what I mean about Mahler recordings. They polarise us much more - you love Vanska and don't rate Barshai.. 
I'm the opposite! I think that's why one conductor rarely satisfies either, in Mahler. I really enjoyed Vanska's 4th. I'll have to revisit te 6th as seemed OK first time round. I'm the same with some of Zinman's cycle. Can never quite make my mind up about some of those either.


----------



## Enthusiast

^ It is a long time since I listened to Barshai's Mahler 5 but every time I tried it I really didn't like it. Probably it is time to give it another go. I also enjoyed Vanska's Mahler 4 but have yet to hear his 6th. As for Zinman - from what I can remember I liked many of his Mahlers (which I was not expecting) but not as much as quite a few others. I do remember hating his Strauss!


----------



## flamencosketches

While we're on the subject of Mahler 5, my favorite probably remains the Boulez, but I love the Bernstein/NY almost just as much (though I admit it has murkier sound and more questionable playing—haven't heard his Vienna remake, but will soon when I get the box). I've heard the Barshai just once and enjoyed it. The Karajan is growing in my estimation.


----------



## Knorf

flamencosketches said:


> While we're on the subject of Mahler 5, my favorite probably remains the Boulez, but I love the Bernstein/NY almost just as much (though I admit it has murkier sound and more questionable playing-haven't heard his Vienna remake, but will soon when I get the box). I've heard the Barshai just once and enjoyed it. The Karajan is growing in my estimation.


I'm eager to hear what you think of Bernstein/Wiener Philharmoniker. For me, it is a very special Mahler recording, even for Bernstein!


----------



## ZeR0

I adore Leonard Bernstein, especially his Mahler. I recommend:

9th Symphony (NYPO)
5th Symphony (VPO)
6th Symphony (VPO)
2nd Symphony (NYPO)
Das Lied von der Erde (VPO)
Kindertotenlieder (with Janet Baker and Israel Philharmonic)


----------

