# Exposition



## Celloissimo (Mar 29, 2013)

Hello,

This Cello Sonata is a piece I've been working on for about 6 months by this point, on and off again. I have roughly finished the exposition and I would like advice from fellow Talkclassicians on how to brush up the exposition section before I move on to the development. I'm still tackling sonata form and some feedback on to compose better in this form would be appreciated.

Things I would like to work on:

-Harmonic variation

-Revising the piano part to make it "natural" for the piano player. (I feel like there are too many root-position triads going on here)

-Making sure a true modulation to the dominant key is emphasized at Theme B as opposed to sounding like a modal inflection of D Major

-Voice Leading (not sure if the German aug.6 chord in bar 23 is being used properly)

-Better transition to Theme B, because I feel the half rest is slightly awkward

Additionally, I want to know what I'm doing right or what is good about what I have done so far. This isn't to fish for compliments, but to know what I've been doing correctly or what sounds nice so I can apply it later.

Thank you!

http://www.noteflight.com/scores/view/53776a09feb33c2a470b1adabe6119aa895300c0


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## skrjablin (May 8, 2010)

I will tell you this: in my opinion, sonata form is really tricky to get right. I myself have never gotten it quite right, in the way that Mozart and Beethoven and such made it flow completely naturally and build up tension with the key changes and create a big natural arc and climaxes. You almost always get into these problems: 

a) the themes that you come up with are too symmetrical and periodical instead of spinning naturally into the next phase of the sonata form, because it's for some reason more easy to come up with themes that form a short arc rather than which are the seed of something long-spun, 

b) the modulations feel wrong, either "tacked on", or too abrupt, or too boring, or they don't actually modulate, 

c) the sections are too harmonically colourful in themselves to establish the keys correctly (there's a reason that classical harmonical language is very much restricted to I-V motion, and there's also a reason why sonata form sort of broke down during romanticism (which tended to more daring harmonies within sections))

d) the opposite of c happens, that is, that sections work harmonically in the big picture but are alarmingly dull in themselves.


For these reasons, I would suggest that if you want to complete this work, you just make it some more sectional form lika ABA or perhaps ||:A:||:BA:|| . Actually, sonata form is just a special case of extended ABA form, but a hard one to master. But here, I would just focus on creating a whole that you feel sounds good to your ears in itself, irrespective of what form it is in. 

But if you see this as an exercise in sonata form, and you want to go wholly with the classical style, I would suggest removing the C chord (which is not diatonically on the D Major scale) and stuff like that during the piano introduction, to make it establish the key a bit better (don't try to do daring things like Beethoven did in the intro to his first symphony in your first exercise). Then the main theme should be less daring harmonically also, and the modulation should be lots more drawn out (you'll have to really think or do research to find a good modulation progression, or perhaps copy the harmonic movements of some actual Mozart sonata) and the movement/texture should not stop when it starts but rather it should be an organic continuation following "logically" from the initial theme.

On the plus side, you really are in A Major when your current exposition ends, if not when the second theme starts. 

Sorry if this comes about as a bit rough, that was not my intention. I should have gone to bed long ago.


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## Celloissimo (Mar 29, 2013)

skrjablin said:


> Sorry if this comes about as a bit rough, that was not my intention. I should have gone to bed long ago.


Not at all! Thank you for the advice.


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## Celloissimo (Mar 29, 2013)

> I will tell you this: in my opinion, sonata form is really tricky to get right. I myself have never gotten it quite right, in the way that Mozart and Beethoven and such made it flow completely naturally and build up tension with the key changes and create a big natural arc and climaxes.


I certainly envy this as well, how their transitions are so seamless and purely organic. I find myself listening to the opening movement of Mozart's 16th Piano Sonata in C Major over and over again because it is a glowing example of how he totally mastered sonata form. Also the 1st movement of Bruckner's 6th: I wish I could modulate so beautifully and naturally like that!



> a) the themes that you come up with are too symmetrical and periodical instead of spinning naturally into the next phase of the sonata form, because it's for some reason more easy to come up with themes that form a short arc rather than which are the seed of something long-spun,


Most certainly. In this piece I end the themes on cadences in whole notes because I can't come up with a "natural transition" to the next one so much. Bars 10-11 it sounds perfectly okay to my ear, but extremely awkward or takced on in 22-23.



> b) the modulations feel wrong, either "tacked on", or too abrupt, or too boring, or they don't actually modulate,


The deceptive cadence in bar 15 is the only time I stray from D Major (or at least intended to, lol) and the following chords are moreso harmonic progressions back to D Major as opposed to modulations. The modulation into A Major feels very boring and abrupt though and I don't know how to remedy that, if it truly modulates at all



> c) the sections are too harmonically colourful in themselves to establish the keys correctly (there's a reason that classical harmonical language is very much restricted to I-V motion, and there's also a reason why sonata form sort of broke down during romanticism (which tended to more daring harmonies within sections))


The thing is, the deceptive cadence into B Minor at bar 15 actually sounds natural and pleasing to my ear and I want to keep it, but I don't want to obscure the tonal center.



> d) the opposite of c happens, that is, that sections work harmonically in the big picture but are alarmingly dull in themselves.


Very true. The only melodies I personally find interesting are the intro and measure 11. Does the rest sound like an exercise, or just plain uninspired, because I get that vibe a bit from the other sections.


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## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

Celloissimo said:


> I certainly envy this as well, how their transitions are so seamless and purely organic. I find myself listening to the opening movement of Mozart's 16th Piano Sonata in C Major over and over again because it is a glowing example of how he totally mastered sonata form. Also the 1st movement of Bruckner's 6th: I wish I could modulate so beautifully and naturally like that!


There are three techniques that you can use to get yourself to write more fluently: counterpoint, counterpoint, and counterpoint.



Celloissimo said:


> Most certainly. In this piece I end the themes on cadences in whole notes because I can't come up with a "natural transition" to the next one so much. Bars 10-11 it sounds perfectly okay to my ear, but extremely awkward or takced on in 22-23.


Think in larger terms, and don't simply stick one phrase onto another phrase with some glue in between.



Celloissimo said:


> The thing is, the deceptive cadence into B Minor at bar 15 actually sounds natural and pleasing to my ear and I want to keep it, but I don't want to obscure the tonal center.


Harmonic centers can be established without perfect authentic cadences (or without even using the tonic chord).

Generally, you shouldn't use parallel chords in this style, but you especially should avoid parallel chords in second inversion, as in bar 4. The false relation in bar 2 sounds wrong. Have the upper voice move to a note other than C. (There are implied parallel octaves here between bass and treble, and that's also bad.)


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## Celloissimo (Mar 29, 2013)

Mahlerian said:


> Harmonic centers can be established without perfect authentic cadences (or without even using the tonic chord).


Hmm that's interesting because I haven't tried that: my mind has been closed to V-I movements and pivot chords when it comes to changing keys or establishing a harmonic center. What are some techniques to establish the tonal center without the I chord?

I also feel as if I have too many themes for the listener to remember in the exposition, and they're not interesting enough for the listener to recall or stand out, so to speak. Like I'm throwing too much at the listener in the beginning when I should only be using like 2 themes at most as an amateur.


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## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

Celloissimo said:


> Hmm that's interesting because I haven't tried that: my mind has been closed to V-I movements and pivot chords when it comes to changing keys or establishing a harmonic center. What are some techniques to establish the tonal center without the I chord?


Clear dominants establish an implied tonic without its appearance. A few diatonic chords in a common practice language is enough to make it clear beyond doubt which key a work is in (this is harder in minor, where more alterations are necessary). Be aware of your melodic lines as well, and make sure that they imply the tonality you want.



Celloissimo said:


> I also feel as if I have too many themes for the listener to remember in the exposition, and they're not interesting enough for the listener to recall or stand out, so to speak. Like I'm throwing too much at the listener in the beginning when I should only be using like 2 themes at most as an amateur.


Use one or two themes, and derive everything else from those. Then, even if you introduce something new, the listener will be able to more easily relate it to what they've heard before.

Movements with three or more themes tend to be very long, because it takes time to establish and develop something complex while remaining comprehensible. If _you_ as the composer have a hard time following what you're doing (imagine you didn't put it together and it's just something you're listening to), then there's no way the audience will be able to.


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## Celloissimo (Mar 29, 2013)

Mahlerian said:


> Clear dominants establish an implied tonic without its appearance. A few diatonic chords in a common practice language is enough to make it clear beyond doubt which key a work is in (this is harder in minor, where more alterations are necessary). Be aware of your melodic lines as well, and make sure that they imply the tonality you want.
> 
> Use one or two themes, and derive everything else from those. Then, even if you introduce something new, the listener will be able to more easily relate it to what they've heard before.
> 
> Movements with three or more themes tend to be very long, because it takes time to establish and develop something complex while remaining comprehensible. If _you_ as the composer have a hard time following what you're doing (imagine you didn't put it together and it's just something you're listening to), then there's no way the audience will be able to.


Yeah exactly, I want to approach it from the listener's perspective because that's what ultimately matters. How difficult is it to follow this piece specifically and following/remembering each of the themes? Part of me wants to start over with one of the themes only and derive another from that like you said, but I have a lot of material that I also happen to like in there and don't want to start from scratch, y'know?


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## Celloissimo (Mar 29, 2013)

http://www.noteflight.com/scores/view/53776a09feb33c2a470b1adabe6119aa895300c0

I created a rough sketch of the development section and recapitulation. I decided to omit an exposition repeat. Do the themes stick out to the listener or does the piece just sound random? I ask this because it is difficult to judge one's own work objectively. While I find it perfectly easy to follow, the actual listener may not. Thee are some voice leading things I would like to fix or make smoother.

And if it's of any concern, I'm aware "bumping" a thread is a breach of forum etiquette, but there seems to be little going on this section so I thought it was okay to bring it back to the top.


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