# Schubert's 5th / Mozart's 40th?



## An Die Freude (Apr 23, 2011)

Has anyone, when listening to Schubert's 5th symphony's first movement, thought that it sounded like a happy version of Mozart's 40th's first movement?

It's just that I was listening to the Schubert symphony then the thought popped into my head and I wondered if I was the only one that thought that.

Also, I know they have the same key signature and all, so that might be a contributing factor.


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## Huilunsoittaja (Apr 6, 2010)

I know what you mean. I love that Schubert Symphony, by the way. Probably just a coincidence, although he was influence by Mozart.


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

Definitely the most Mozartian of the early Schubert symphonies.


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## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

Interesting observation. Charles Rosen also found similarities with the 40th symphony. He wrote in The Classical Style, "The minuet of Schubert's Symphony No. 5 combines the third and fourth movements of the Mozart G minor symphony so that one hears a blurred echo of the past in its outline."


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## pjang23 (Oct 8, 2009)

The 2nd movement of Schubert's 5th sounds a lot like the 2nd movement of Mozart's 25th.


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## AmateurComposer (Sep 13, 2009)

An Die Freude said:


> Has anyone, when listening to Schubert's 5th symphony's first movement, thought that it sounded like a happy version of Mozart's 40th's first movement?
> 
> It's just that I was listening to the Schubert symphony then the thought popped into my head and I wondered if I was the only one that thought that.
> 
> Also, I know they have the same key signature and all, so that might be a contributing factor.


Yes, the signature is the same - two flats, but the key is not. Mozart's 40th is in G minor while Schubert fifth is in Bb major. Well, this is a *major* difference.

Schubert admired Mozart's 40th, but it is not clear to me whether or not this admiration had an effect in composing the fifth. Why the fifth and not the preceding four? Why none of the later symphonies?


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## An Die Freude (Apr 23, 2011)

AmateurComposer said:


> Yes, the signature is the same - two flats, but the key is not. Mozart's 40th is in G minor while Schubert fifth is in Bb major. Well, this is a *major* difference.


Not to sound snippy, but that's why I said key signature.


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## AmateurComposer (Sep 13, 2009)

An Die Freude said:


> Not to sound snippy, but that's why I said key signature.


Yes, I noticed that. However, I was trying to point out that, for the purpose of your original argument, the key is more significant than the plain signature (the "_key signature_" in your words) at the clef.

By the way, let's not argue about the terminology. I am willing to accept yours if you insist.


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## AmateurComposer (Sep 13, 2009)

An Die Freude said:


> Not to sound snippy, but that's why I said key signature.





AmateurComposer said:


> By the way, let's not argue about the terminology. I am willing to accept yours if you insist.


Regarding the terminology, I checked the Oxford Musical Dictionary, and I accept your terminology as the right one. I should have done that before posting.


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## TxllxT (Mar 2, 2011)

An Die Freude said:


> Has anyone, when listening to Schubert's 5th symphony's first movement, thought that it sounded like a happy version of Mozart's 40th's first movement?
> 
> It's just that I was listening to the Schubert symphony then the thought popped into my head and I wondered if I was the only one that thought that.
> 
> Also, I know they have the same key signature and all, so that might be a contributing factor.


I would link Schubert's 5th with the symphonies of Johann Christian Bach. Mozart has learned a lot from him. Bach's style is constantly happy & courteous like an endlessly sunny summer.


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## Romantic Geek (Dec 25, 2009)

If we're talking about Schubert modeling symphonies - you can't help but think that 5 minutes into the last movement of his Great C symphony that it's melody is none other than the Ode to Joy theme in Beethoven 9.


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## Delicious Manager (Jul 16, 2008)

What is also remarkable is that both pieces are scored for the exact same forces: 1 flute, 2 oboes, 2 bassoons, 2 horns and strings (ignoring Mozart's 'revision' of the 40th to include clarinets).


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## mleghorn (May 18, 2011)

An Die Freude said:


> Has anyone, when listening to Schubert's 5th symphony's first movement, thought that it sounded like a happy version of Mozart's 40th's first movement?
> 
> It's just that I was listening to the Schubert symphony then the thought popped into my head and I wondered if I was the only one that thought that.
> 
> Also, I know they have the same key signature and all, so that might be a contributing factor.


I've also noticed this. I mentioned it on a forum several years ago, and the idea was dismissed as ridiculous. I think the similarities between Schubert's 5th and Mozart's 40th are striking, and suggest that Schubert used the 40th for a model for his 5th. Not only do they sound similar, they're also scored for the same instruments.


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## peeyaj (Nov 17, 2010)

Give it a listen:


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