# What does good counterpoint look like?



## level82rat

And related to this, what are the marks of mediocre, amateur counterpoint?


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## Guest

OK, I'm going to give a couple of examples to show - *in terms of pastiche writing* - what would be considered poor work and what would pass muster (meet a required student standard).
You'll need to give me a bit of time to work out how to post these examples in pdf format (from MuseScore and Finale software). Bear with me please ...


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## Guest

Just to define our parameters: we are talking about simple, 2-part counterpoint in the baroque style.


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## arpeggio

Even though I have a masters in music education, I have never studied counterpoint so I do not know.


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## level82rat

TalkingHead said:


> Just to define our parameters: we are talking about simple, 2-part counterpoint in the baroque style.


Correct, but isn't 3+ part counterpoint is just the same principle as 2-part applied to more voices?


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## Guest

level82rat said:


> Correct, but isn't 3+ part counterpoint is just the same principle as 2-part applied to more voices?


Let's limit ourselves to 2-part counterpoint for the moment to set out the basic principles.
I've just prepared three preliminary 2-part first species counterpoint examples using Finale software as a starter. 
I'm trying to work out how to post these with an accompanying audio file so that forum members unable to read music can hear what we're talking about. Bear with me please ...


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## SanAntone

I would suggest that Bach's two-part Inventions offer examples of excellent counterpoint.


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## Guest

SanAntone said:


> I would suggest that Bach's two-part Inventions offer examples of excellent counterpoint.


Just before we get there, can we start from basic principles in keeping with Level82Rat's request in another thread?


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## Guest

OK, so I think I'm ready...


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## Guest

Just to recap, in another thread, *level82rat* asked what makes for good counterpoint. Assuming we mean writing _*pastiche*_ (in the style of) baroque counterpoint, here is a typical homework assignment given to my students. For a bit of background, they would have already done 2 years of CP harmony.

I post here first the pdf file ...
View attachment 1st species counterpoint (student exercise).pdf


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## Guest

So, to explain the pdf above, this is a typical exercise give to students who now have to add a second lower voice (in this case) to the given part called the CF (the _*c*antus *f*irmus_)...


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## Guest

I will now post a "typical" student working...


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## SanAntone

TalkingHead said:


> Just before we get there, can we start from basic principles in keeping with Level82Rat's request in another thread?


Certainly, I won't interrupt anymore. It will an interesting refresher since my college days.


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## Guest

Sorry, just before that, I need to post the audio file of the student exercise before I continue...


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## Guest

Here is the audio file of the given student exercise (1st species, note against note)


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## Guest

So a quick recap, please play the audio file while reading the pdf of the given student exercise...


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## Guest

So, now students add the second voice, bearing in mind the "rules of counterpoint" that we have studied before, which combine melodic writing and implied 4-part harmony even though we only have two voices to play with (more of that, later)...


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## Guest

Here then is a typical student example, with several flaws in the counterpoint. Can you detect them? Can you say what the errors are? I give you the pdf and the audio file ...


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## Guest

Student working


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## Guest

And now the audio of the student working ...


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## level82rat

TalkingHead said:


> Student working


Mistakes i found
M1 B2 - likewise motion not ideal
M2 B1 - should have resolved to Gm
M2 B2 - octaves not ideal for harmony
M3->M5 - no contrary or oblique motion
M6 B2 -> M7 B1 - parallel octaves


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## Guest

Here is the audio of the "typical" student solution with its errors...

Sorry, it seems I can't upload this audio file. Damn, what to do?


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## Guest

@level82rat : I'm very sorry, it seems I can't post audio files, they're too heavy to upload. Do you want to continue via PM (private messages) where we can exchange personal emails and continue on Microsoft TEAMS?


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## level82rat

TalkingHead said:


> @level82rat : I'm very sorry, it seems I can't post audio files, they're too heavy to upload. Do you want to continue via PM (private messages) where we can exchange personal emails and continue on Microsoft TEAMS?


I prefer to practice analyzing sheet music. If i really need to hear it I will play it on my piano


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## Guest

OK, let's continue with PDF files...


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## Guest

Let me just review the errors you found ...


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## Guest

level82rat said:


> Mistakes i found
> M1 B2 - likewise motion not ideal
> M2 B1 - should have resolved to Gm
> M2 B2 - octaves not ideal for harmony
> M3->M5 - no contrary or oblique motion
> M6 B2 -> M7 B1 - parallel octaves


Well spotted on all counts; where I would disagree is the likewise motion in M1 B2 which is acceptable. 
Other errors are the doubling of the leading note (C#), the ascending chord "described" by the lower voice in MM 4-6, and the augmented second in the lower voice B-flat-C# (M5). Vocally-speaking, the lower voice is much less melodic ("singable") than the CF.
So, we are beginning to only touch on your question about what good counterpoint looks like.
Shall we continue? If so, I suggest we keep to 1st species (baroque) counterpoint for the moment. 
Over to you.


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## level82rat

Yes let’s continue. And is it wrong to have an ascending chord in the lower voice?


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## arpeggio

TalkingHead is doing a good job.


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## Guest

level82rat said:


> Yes let's continue. And is it wrong to have an ascending chord in the lower voice?


That depends: whatever the voice, two or more melodic leaps in one direction need to "describe" an implied II7, V7 or a triad.


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## Guest

arpeggio said:


> TalkingHead is doing a good job.


Dear _*arpeggio*_, we don't often have occassion to converse; that said, may I thank you for your validation.


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## Guest

So here is a "model answer", you could well suggest your own:

View attachment 1st species counterpoint (model solution).pdf


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## level82rat

TalkingHead said:


> So here is a "model answer", you could well suggest your own:
> 
> View attachment 155540


Now these are fairly basic rules of counterpoint. Did established composers ever violate them on accident?


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## Bwv 1080

One of my favorite videos on the topic:

Traditional counterpoint study began with the bass, not the top melodic line:


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## Guest

level82rat said:


> Now these are fairly basic rules of counterpoint. Did established composers ever violate them on accident?


These are indeed very basic rules of 1st species counterpoint in the baroque style. I don't know if the "established" composers (you mean the famous ones we all know?) violated them *by accident*.


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## Guest

Do you want to continue now with the simple rules for 2nd species?


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## level82rat

TalkingHead said:


> Do you want to continue now with the simple rules for 2nd species?


Absolutely. Im not lost yet and hopefully i can keep up


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## Guest

Bwv 1080 said:


> One of my favorite videos on the topic:
> 
> Traditional counterpoint study began with the bass, not the top melodic line:


Yes, one of the fundamental features of effective *2-part* counterpoint in the baroque style (pastiche writing, as I teach it) is to have a solid sense of "implied 4-part harmony" as suggested by the bass line. The examples are innumerable and no doubt we shall cover some of them as this thread progresses...
We have begun then to give a partial answer to level82rat's OP about what good counterpoint looks like: with only two voices, good counterpoint carries a clear harmonic baggage.


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## Guest

By the way, when I say "voices" I mean "parts"; they could be vocal or instrumental, though the writing (leaps and so on) will differ, obviously.


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## Guest

level82rat said:


> Absolutely. Im not lost yet and hopefully i can keep up


No worries, this is not rocket science.


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## Guest

level82rat said:


> Absolutely. Im not lost yet and hopefully i can keep up


OK, let's keep going; I won't be available on a daily basis but I will pop in here fairly frequently.


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## Guest

level82rat said:


> Absolutely. Im not lost yet and hopefully i can keep up


Before we move on to 2nd species, we should perhaps specify the basic rules governing 1st species and try an exercise or two. OK for you?


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## Guest

First the basic rules for *1st species baroque counterpoint*. May I just say that I use a variety of teaching resources; the 20 basic rules I give here can easily be found on the internet. Exceptions to these rules can always be found. 

1. The following harmonic (*vertical*) intervals are OK: 3rds, 6ths, perfect 5ths, octaves, unisons, augmented 4ths, and diminished 5ths (bearing in mind their harmonic implications).
2. Unisons must be approached and quit by contrary motion.
3. The following harmonic (*vertical*) intervals are not OK: minor 2nds, perfect 4ths, major 7ths, minor 9ths, augmented 5ths, and augmented 6ths.
4. The following melodic intervals are OK: major and minor 2nds, major and minor 3rds, major and minor 6ths, the perfect fourth, the perfect 5th, the diminished 5th, and diminished 7th.
5. Based on the above, avoid all augmented melodic intervals.
6. 3rds and 6ths (harmonic intervals) will be more frequent than other intervals; no more than four in a row as this reduces the independence between the parts.
7. The same rules apply as in 4-part harmony: no parallel 5ths and octaves, etc. 
8. Aim for contrary motion; similar motion is also usable, but not too much.
9. Do not double the leading note or other chromatic notes.
10. It is important that each part has a clear melodic contour.
11. The parts (or voices) must not overlap.
12. Do not use repeated notes.
13. Always have in mind a solid harmonic outline.
14. The lower voice always functions as the bass part.
15. Both voices should have a good balance between stepwise motion and leaps.
16. Leaps of a 6th or more should be followed by a change of direction, the following note falling within the "envelope" described by the large interval.
17. Two or more leaps in the same direction should "describe" a triad, a V7 or a II7.
18. Normally, two leaps in the same direction should be followed by a change of direction; this is of course a general melodic rule.
19. Always be sure of the harmony implied; I-IV-V-I is common; I-IV-III-II would be bizarre!
20. Modulations are OK (welcome, even!) to neighbouring tonalities.


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## Guest

So, anytime y'all ready, we can try an exercise or two.


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## level82rat

TalkingHead said:


> So, anytime y'all ready, we can try an exercise or two.


Read over this a few times. I think im ready


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## Guest

level82rat said:


> Read over this a few times. I think im ready


OK, let's try two very short 1st species exercises as follows:

View attachment 1st species baroque counterpoint exercises.pdf


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