# John Coltrane



## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

I've been listening to Coltrane for about 30 years now, but I only get on a kick once in a great while. Listening to Africa Brass, and the self titled album on Impulse got me kicking again.

There is a new archival release coming out entitled Live At Temple University. It was recorded in 1966. I just read the Downbeat cover story on this album, and it seems like a strange choice of material. A somewhat poorly recorded show featuring a bunch of percussionists and an uninvited quest. All who have been described as low caliber musicians compared to Coltrane's level. And Coltrane sings a bit too. I'll most likely pass on this one.

I've thought about picking up the 1961 Vanguard set, but I tend to only prefer the tracks with Dolphy on the single CD I have, which is the old Master Takes edition. I enjoy Coltrane's playing when he sounds focused, and he has an idea where he's going. The Chasin' The Trane type of long, restless solos don't really do much for me.


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## echo (Aug 15, 2014)




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## Moraviac (Feb 18, 2011)

I only heard "My Favorite Things", which I like. The title track especially.


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## Piwikiwi (Apr 1, 2011)

Ah the second best tenor saxofonist of all times, he is alright.


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## brotagonist (Jul 11, 2013)

I picked up eight of his albums when I began rebuilding the better parts of my former LP collection in earnest about three years ago. I still kind of enjoy them, but I haven't felt the kick for quite some years. All of that restless squawking quickly has me seeking refuge in classical music


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

brotagonist said:


> All of that restless squawking quickly has me seeking refuge in classical music


As I said, that's the stuff I try to avoid. I love Coltrane's ballad playing, and most of the studio albums up to 1964.


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## Morimur (Jan 23, 2014)

How would you guys rate Coltrane as a composer?


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

Lope de Aguirre said:


> How would you guys rate Coltrane as a composer?


I love Naima and he made nice tunes (like Wise one or Lonnie's lament, Crescent is probably my favorite album of him). And he was certainly influential on a great composer like Shorter. I don't care too much for his famous Coltrane changes, especially Giant steps to my ears sounds more like a clever exercise than a great tune. Anyway his style was certainly original, altough the role of the style of McCoy Tyner is very important in the sound of that music, and I don't know if he was influenced by Coltrane or if Coltrane was influenced by the pianist.


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## Piwikiwi (Apr 1, 2011)

Lope de Aguirre said:


> How would you guys rate Coltrane as a composer?


His album A Love Supreme is filled with original compositions and his ballads are great as well.


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## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

starthrower said:


> I've been listening to Coltrane for about 30 years now, but I only get on a kick once in a great while.


Me too. It may be blasphemy, but to be honest, he doesn't speak to me like others of that period do. I think partly it's his sound; it's not that rich, more dry. I think Pharaoh Sanders has the better sound. His sound on the soprano is even worse.

Also, his driving rhythms wear me out. I've heard One Up, One Down a few times because it's influenced a lot of players, but the constant pounding on the beat without variation gets very tiring.

I appreciate his innovations (I've even committed Giant Steps to memory), also his way of incorporating others' innovations, particularly John Gilmore, but I end up liking hearing his innovations incorporated and interpreted by other players.

I've made it a point for a long time to hear A Love Supreme once a year to see if it finally will click. I've gained appreciation for it, but I don't necessarily "like" it.

My personal favorite recording of his playing is with Thelonious Monk at Carnegie Hall.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

I forgot about the Monk albums. I love Coltrane's playing on those records.


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## Piwikiwi (Apr 1, 2011)

Manxfeeder said:


> I've made it a point for a long time to hear A Love Supreme once a year to see if it finally will click. I've gained appreciation for it, but I don't necessarily "like" it.


I cried the first time I heard a love supreme, it was the only time a piece of music made me cry. I don't think you'll ever get it if it takes such a long time, that's okay of course, because he emotional power of the piece is quite profound and in your face.


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## shangoyal (Sep 22, 2013)

His tone is great and inspirational - he made jazz a spiritual affair. Some of his stuff is almost too intense for leisure listening, though. But Blue Train, Giant Steps and My Favorite Things are great relaxing albums without being run of the mill.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

A couple of 1965 tunes I enjoy. Living Space is the title track from a posthumous release.
Welcome is from the Transition album.


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## Piwikiwi (Apr 1, 2011)

shangoyal said:


> His tone is great and inspirational - he made jazz a spiritual affair. Some of his stuff is almost too intense for leisure listening, though. But Blue Train, Giant Steps and My Favorite Things are great relaxing albums without being run of the mill.


His playing on the rest of the songs of my favourite thigs is appallingly out of tune


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

Piwikiwi said:


> His playing on the rest of the songs of my favourite thigs is appallingly out of tune


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## dgee (Sep 26, 2013)

^^^^^ - some slightly funky tuning in that one. You can hear how the pitch wanders about on repeated notes and there's lot of intervals that just sound wrong - not appalling given the standards of the time and it being jazz and whatnot


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

dgee said:


> ^^^^^ - some slightly funky tuning in that one. You can hear how the pitch wanders about on repeated notes and there's lot of intervals that just sound wrong - not appalling given the standards of the time and it being jazz and whatnot


I have a good ear and I don't find it out of tune at all. Unless we're talking of the fact that all music based on equal temperament is out of tune. By the way I wonder how you would stand great players like Von Freeman or Jackie Mclean.


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## dgee (Sep 26, 2013)

I played music professionally (still do from time to time) and you wouldn't get through the first round of a rank and file audition with pitch like that. Of course, current standards for professional orchestral musicianship may not be the right measure to apply - it was a different time and the musicians had different aims


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

dgee said:


> I played music professionally (still do from time to time) and you wouldn't get through the first round of a rank and file audition with pitch like that.


I don't play music professionally but still I have a good ear, and I hear a musician who's playing in a beautiful and expressive way (the different aim?), not a dabbler who don't know what he's doing with an uncertain pitch.
If his pitch here is a problem, then every single piano should be destroyed because it's out of tune. I don't know, maybe Harry Partch would agree with that.


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## Piwikiwi (Apr 1, 2011)

dgee said:


> ^^^^^ - some slightly funky tuning in that one. You can hear how the pitch wanders about on repeated notes and there's lot of intervals that just sound wrong - not appalling given the standards of the time and it being jazz and whatnot


The version of every time we say goodbye is bad even for the time.


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## Piwikiwi (Apr 1, 2011)

norman bates said:


> I have a good ear and I don't find it out of tune at all. Unless we're talking of the fact that all music based on equal temperament is out of tune. By the way I wonder how you would stand great players like Von Freeman or Jackie Mclean.


I can't stand jackie mclean for that reason, my favourite saxophone player is sonny rollins and his tuning isn't the greatest but at least it is still acceptable.


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## Piwikiwi (Apr 1, 2011)

norman bates said:


> I don't play music professionally but still I have a good ear, and I hear a musician who's playing in a beautiful and expressive way (the different aim?), not a dabbler who don't know what he's doing with an uncertain pitch..


He probably just was just having a bad day because his tuning is fine most of the time


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

Piwikiwi said:


> The version of every time we say goodbye is bad even for the time.


Funny, because it's one of my favorite songs from probably the best time in the history of jazz and it's maybe my favorite version of it. Maybe it's because it's played by one of the greatest sax players ever?
Snobism isn't truth or superior knowledge.


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## dgee (Sep 26, 2013)

norman bates said:


> Funny, because it's one of my favorite songs from probably the best time in the history of jazz and it's maybe my favorite version of it. Maybe it's because it's played by one of the greatest sax players ever?
> Snobism isn't truth or superior knowledge.


Sure ain't. I listen to heaps of 60s and 70s pop and there is some really out of tune playing there. Way worse than the Coltrane track you posted. It's mostly acceptable in context - still enjoy but would definitely never say it was in tune :lol:


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

dgee said:


> Sure ain't. I listen to heaps of 60s and 70s pop and there is some really out of tune playing there. Way worse than the Coltrane track you posted. It's mostly acceptable in context - still enjoy but would definitely never say it was in tune :lol:


what "context"? Every classical music made with a piano, an organ or a guitar music is out of tune!


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## dgee (Sep 26, 2013)

Are you arguing some equal tempered thing, since you already implied it? I just found many of the unisons and intervals "out of tune" in the link you posted. The question for me was "is the sax out of tune" and the answer, for me, was "yes, according what I think are reasonable standards of pitch". I'm not into some philosophical discussion about equal temperament or whether you can still enjoy music where the pitch is funky


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

dgee said:


> Are you arguing some equal tempered thing, since you already implied it? I just found many of the unisons and intervals "out of tune" in the link you posted. The question for me was "is the sax out of tune" and the answer, for me, was "yes, according what I think are reasonable standards of pitch". I'm not into some philosophical discussion about equal temperament or whether you can still enjoy music where the pitch is funky


that's not philosophical at all. Out of tune means out of tune, and equal temperament is alway out of tune. So to be not exactly in tune with that doesn't necessarily means to have a wrong intonation (even if a soprano sax a difficult instrument considering pitch).


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## dgee (Sep 26, 2013)

norman bates said:


> that's not philosophical at all. Out of tune means out of tune, and equal temperament is alway out of tune. So to be not exactly in tune with that doesn't necessarily means to have a wrong intonation (even if a soprano sax a difficult instrument considering pitch). And at least for my ear (aconsidering that it seems that I can hear differences of one cent of pitch) that doesn't sounds wrong or displeasing in any way.


Wow! Did you check that out with an electronic tuner? I definitely can't always hear one cent - depends on context. Maybe you should be a piano tuner!

Of course, you must have heard how flat the tonic and 7th were these were first played? And still been fairly relaxed about it. It's OK in the context but y'know those notes are quite flat

And sop players I know today don't struggle with pitch


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

dgee said:


> Wow! Did you check that out with an electronic tuner? I definitely can't always hear one cent - depends on context. Maybe you should be a piano tuner!


I've cancelled that part because I'm not so sure of the reliability, but when I used some of those ear training programs I've had that kind of results. But anyway I have many limits but I know that I don't have problems with pitch.


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

dgee said:


> Of course, you must have heard how flat the tonic and 7th were these were first played? And still been fairly relaxed about it. It's OK in the context but y'know those notes are quite flat


the first 7th is on "I die a LITTLE" (am I correct? considering the video the note at 0:16), and doesn't sound flat at all to me.


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## Piwikiwi (Apr 1, 2011)

norman bates said:


> Funny, because it's one of my favorite songs from probably the best time in the history of jazz and it's maybe my favorite version of it.


 I have over 600 jazz cd's and about 80% is from between 1950-1960 and while I can't argue about taste I can safely say that you might have missed some great tunes instead of some overly sentimental song as every time we say goodbye


> Maybe it's because it's played by one of the greatest sax players ever?
> Snobism isn't truth or superior knowledge.


Sorry but the assertion that I'm acting like a snob because I think somethig is too much out of tune is a bit ridiculous. I quite like Coltrane just not that song(or his other soprano playing for that matter)


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

Piwikiwi said:


> Sorry but the assertion that I'm acting like a snob because I think somethig is too much out of tune is a bit ridiculous. I quite Coltrane just not that song.


Considering that you're not the only one with ears and it's one of the most loved album by one of the greatest jazz musicians ever (who also knew a lot about music) to me sounds preposterous to suggest that most of the album is out of tune and that he was a sort of dilettante from a primitive era (a musical tradition at his peak actually) not at the level of any anonymous musician who plays for an orchestra today.


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

Piwikiwi said:


> I have over 600 jazz cd's and about 80% is from between 1950-1960 and while I can't argue about taste I can safely say that you might have missed some great tunes instead of some overly sentimental song as every time we say goodbye


It's one of the best songs Cole Porter wrote, with finesses like the passage from a major chord to a minor chord under the words "from major to minor". I'm curious to know which are the great tunes I'm missing, considering that a lot of the best songs in the american songbook are sentimental songs.


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## Piwikiwi (Apr 1, 2011)

norman bates said:


> Considering that you're not the only one with ears and it's one of the most loved album by one of the greatest jazz musicians ever (who also knew a lot about music) to me sounds preposterous to suggest that most of the album is out of tune and that he was a sort of dilettante from a primitive era (a musical tradition at his peak actually) not at the level of any anonymous musician who plays for an orchestra today.


It is famous because it got John Coltrane playing pop tunes of the time. giant steps, blue train, a love supreme are way better imho. Like I said in the previous post, the 1950-1960s are my favourite period of jazz and I own hundreds of records from that period. I simply consider his intonation to be sub par on that cd.

You keep on trying to put words in my mouth while I never claimed any of the things you write in the last part of your post.

I play saxophone myself and I studied jazz full time for 6 years


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## Piwikiwi (Apr 1, 2011)

norman bates said:


> It's one of the best songs Cole Porter wrote, with finesses like the passage from a major chord to a minor chord under the words "from major to minor". I'm curious to know which are the great tunes I'm missing, considering that a lot of the best songs in the american songbook are sentimental songs.


Bewitched, bothered and bewildred/ in a sentimental mood/ sophisticated lady/ star dust


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

Piwikiwi said:


> Bewitched, bothered and bewildred/ in a sentimental mood/ sophisticated lady/ star dust


Are you really suggesting that songs like stardust or in a sentimental mood aren't sentimental songs?
And do you really believe that I don't know two of the most famous Ellington tunes and one of the most played standards ever?


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## Piwikiwi (Apr 1, 2011)

norman bates said:


> Are you really suggesting that songs like stardust or in a sentimental mood aren't sentimental songs?
> And do you really believe that I don't know two of the most famous Ellington tunes and one of the most played standards ever?


Sorry but why are you so insistent on being personally offended? I really don't care if you know them or not. I just think they are better songs.

To return to the Coltrane song. IT IS ABSOLUTELY FINE IF YOU LIKE IT, IT'S THAT I DON'T. Same goes for Jackie Mclean's playing, he is obviously a great player, I just don't like him and that is also fine.


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

Piwikiwi said:


> Sorry but why are you so insistent on being personally offended? I really don't care if you know them or not. I just think they are better songs.


I'm not offended, simply I'm reading condescending comments about Coltrane being a modest player with pitch problems stated as it's obvious to someone with some knowledge, and to me it's not obvious at all.
By the way I love Stardust and Bewitched but I definitely prefer the Porter song over the two Ellington songs (all sentimental tunes).


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## Piwikiwi (Apr 1, 2011)

norman bates said:


> I'm not offended, simply I'm reading condescending comments about Coltrane being a modest player with pitch problems stated as it's obvious to someone with some knowledge, and to me it's not obvious at all.
> By the way I love Stardust and Bewitched but I definitely prefer the Porter song over the two Ellington songs (all sentimental tunes).


I never said that Coltrane is a modest player, I just said that he had pitch problems on that particular recording.


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

Piwikiwi said:


> It is famous because it got John Coltrane playing pop tunes of the time. giant steps, blue train, a love supreme are way better imho.


Different tastes, I consider Giant steps one of the most overrated jazz compositions (famous just for his clever modulations, inspired probably by Rodgers on Have you met miss jones... Bill Evan's Very early is a sense similar but much better than Giant steps) and the four parts of A love supreme to me are great improvisations on unimportant pieces and melodies.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

Interesting film with commentary from Wayne Shorter, Jimmy Heath, Rashied Ali, Lamonte Young, Roscoe Mitchell, and Alice Coltrane.


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