# what is the birth of secular music official dates and artist in europa?



## deprofundis (Apr 25, 2014)

I wonder if it existed anterior to 12 century?

What do you know more about the subject please i waant to know danke sheun :tiphat:


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## RICK RIEKERT (Oct 9, 2017)

The earliest surviving musical document, a papyrus fragment written around 200 B.C., preserves a few bars of sung music from Euripides' play Orestes, written in 408 B.C.. The fragment includes the words as well as the vocal and instrumental notation scholars have used to reconstruct the music.

The lines describe Orestes' guilt after murdering his mother:

I cry, I cry, your mother's blood that drives you mad, great happiness in mortals never lasting, but like a sail of swift ship, which a god shook up and plunged it with terrible troubles into the greedy and deadly waves of the sea.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

RICK RIEKERT said:


> The earliest surviving musical document, a papyrus fragment written around 200 B.C., preserves a few bars of sung music from Euripides' play Orestes, written in 408 B.C.. The fragment includes the words as well as the vocal and instrumental notation scholars have used to reconstruct the music.
> 
> The lines describe Orestes' guilt after murdering his mother:
> 
> I cry, I cry, your mother's blood that drives you mad, great happiness in mortals never lasting, but like a sail of swift ship, which a god shook up and plunged it with terrible troubles into the greedy and deadly waves of the sea.


Petros Tabouris's music making doesn't sound strange enough to be really ancient, it sounds like the sort of thing you'd here in an Istanbul bar.


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## deprofundis (Apr 25, 2014)

Thaaanks a lot mister honnoorable classical listener, thus mean you would most likely know what you talking about, i can feel your educatesd, scholarized, manners in a good way(decent gentelmen), beeleive me i dont toss complimeent for nothing Riick Rickert , and Mandrykaaa remain a loyal adherant of renaissance purveyor of fine polyphony amen to this.


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## RICK RIEKERT (Oct 9, 2017)

Mandryka said:


> Petros Tabouris's music making doesn't sound strange enough to be really ancient, it sounds like the sort of thing you'd here in an Istanbul bar.


Things can get pretty strange after a few glasses of Raki.


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## joen_cph (Jan 17, 2010)

Apparently a melody from 1400 BC Ugarit, Syria


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## RICK RIEKERT (Oct 9, 2017)

birth of secular music...in europa? 

Syria?


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

I would guess secular music has existed for tens of thousands of years. The above ^ ^ ^ are answering a different question: When extant examples were notated. I'm not sure which question you intended.


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## RICK RIEKERT (Oct 9, 2017)

The question I answered was 'what is the earliest secular European music for which we can plausibly assign a date and a composer?', which seems to me the question deprofundis is asking.


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## Room2201974 (Jan 23, 2018)

RICK RIEKERT said:


> The question I answered was 'what is the earliest secular European music for which we can plausibly assign a date and a composer?', which seems to me the question deprofundis is asking.


I'm sure I'm missing someone before Machaut, but by the 1320's he is writing very secular works. This despite the fact that he is best known for his Mass. Of course, he also wrote this secular music while being a pope-appointed canon at the cathedral in Rheims! Prior to Machaut, not many composers signed their works.


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

RICK RIEKERT said:


> The question I answered was 'what is the earliest secular European music for which we can plausibly assign a date and a composer?', which seems to me the question deprofundis is asking.


I didn't read it that way. The way I read it, the only plausible answer is: There was no birth and there are no official dates.

Part of what I was getting at is that, like plainchant, secular song existed for centuries before anyone notated it. It is likely there was a long standing repertoire of "folk" song before the role of "composer" was even a thing in the genre. I'm not sure what "plausibly assign a date and a composer" would mean in the era when secular song first found its way into notation. Would it mean a transcription of a version of a traditional song sung by a famous troubadour? Would that count as composing?

Anyway: Of course secular music predates the 11thc. The early notated examples, Ancient Greek, sumer is a cumin in, etc. can be found in most comprehensive anthologies.


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## Harmonie (Mar 24, 2007)

RICK RIEKERT said:


> The earliest surviving musical document, a papyrus fragment written around 200 B.C., preserves a few bars of sung music from Euripides' play Orestes, written in 408 B.C.. The fragment includes the words as well as the vocal and instrumental notation scholars have used to reconstruct the music.
> 
> The lines describe Orestes' guilt after murdering his mother:
> 
> I cry, I cry, your mother's blood that drives you mad, great happiness in mortals never lasting, but like a sail of swift ship, which a god shook up and plunged it with terrible troubles into the greedy and deadly waves of the sea.


That recording is so tame, with its use of modern instruments and everything... I prefer to listen to it with an aulos in it.






I'm weird like that.


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