# What % of your favorite composers’ works do you enjoy?



## level82rat (Jun 20, 2019)

I greatly enjoy Bach and Mozart yet even with them I don’t see it being much over 30%


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## MarkW (Feb 16, 2015)

"Enjoy" and "listen to" are two different things.

Sample: Bach <1% (all those cantatas)
Beethoven 15%
Brahms: 8 - 9%
Mahler: 35-40% (function of smaller oeuvre consisting of longer pieces)
Prokofiev: 3%
Stravinsky: 5-6%

Probably easier to list numbers of works


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## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

level82rat said:


> I greatly enjoy Bach and Mozart yet even with them I don't see it being much over 30%


With Bartok and Ravel, I like 100% of their output, including operas which I usually don't like. When I looked less for emotion and more for what stimulates my brain, I was able to broaden my interest.


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## Guest002 (Feb 19, 2020)

Britten: 95%+ (Everything bar Owen Wingrave and Prodigal Son, basically)
Bach: 70%+ (all the organ stuff is a struggle at times)
Vaughan Williams: 85% (have trouble with Hugh the Drover and some of the chamber music)
Beethoven: <10%


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## Ariasexta (Jul 3, 2010)

If I can not 100% love his/her works, I will not pay for their CDs even a scent, in fact I am a very frugal man, I am sick of being tolerating or cater to the people thing.


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## level82rat (Jun 20, 2019)

You misunderstand. You can love a work 100% but not love 100% of their works @Ariasexta


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## Jacck (Dec 24, 2017)

Ravel and Janáček would have a very high percentage with me, given their small output and great quality


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## Fabulin (Jun 10, 2019)

Vivaldi: 90%? <insert joke here>
Mendelssohn: >80%
Herrmann: >80%
Williams: at least 40-50%
Tchaikovsky: 20%?
Wagner: 10%? (non-vocal parts)


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

Bach > 80%
Beethoven > 50%
Mozart > 50%
Shostakovich > 70%
Scriabin > 70%
Weinberg > 80%
Berlioz > 70%
Haydn > 50%
Froberger > 60%
Handel > 50%


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## Ariasexta (Jul 3, 2010)

level82rat said:


> You misunderstand. You can love a work 100% but not love 100% of their works @Ariasexta


I do love 100% of all my collection, every single piece, it is true that not something instinctive to happen. I learn to do it since the beginning because picking tracks had been a nightmare for me since childhood.


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## Littlephrase (Nov 28, 2018)

Beethoven ~85% 
Brahms ~95% 
Mahler 100% 
Bartók 100% 
Shostakovich ~80%
Bach ~95% 
Mozart ~75%
Schubert ~60%


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## TwoFlutesOneTrumpet (Aug 31, 2011)

Interesting question. There are two interpretations of the question: one, out of the pieces I have heard, how many do I enjoy and two, out of the composer's complete works, how many do I enjoy. I must admit that I can't answer the latter since I have not listened to all of the music of even my favourite composers. So going on a gut feel here, I would estimate:

Beethoven: 80%
Brahms: 60%
Sibelius: 70%
Bach: 30% (cantatas or religious masses are not my thing and organ music only appeals to me when transcribed for the piano)
Bruckner: 50%
Shostakovich: 50%
Mozart: 20%
Haydn: 10%
Mahler: 30%
Stravinsky: 20%
Prokofiev: 20%
Chopin: 30%
Tchaikovsky: 15%
Wagner: 1%


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## level82rat (Jun 20, 2019)

TwoFlutesOneTrumpet said:


> Interesting question. There are two interpretations of the question: one, out of the pieces I have heard, how many do I enjoy and two, out of the composer's complete works, how many do I enjoy. I must admit that I can't answer the latter since I have not listened to all of the music of even my favourite composers. So going on a gut feel here, I would estimate:
> 
> Beethoven: 80%
> Brahms: 60%
> ...


May I ask what that 1% is?


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## TwoFlutesOneTrumpet (Aug 31, 2011)

level82rat said:


> May I ask what that 1% is?


Certainly. It's the purely orchestral excerpts from his operas and his c major symphony. I really really wish Wagner spent more of his creative energy on symphonies rather than operas. He was only 19 when he wrote his c major symphony. I bet a mature Wagner symphony would have been fantastic.


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## level82rat (Jun 20, 2019)

TwoFlutesOneTrumpet said:


> Certainly. It's the purely orchestral excerpts from his operas and his c major symphony. I really really wish Wagner spent more of his creative energy on symphonies rather than operas. He was only 19 when he wrote his c major symphony. I bet a mature Wagner symphony would have been fantastic.


The 2nd mvt of his C major symphony is fantastic! One of my top 10 favorite movements in any symphony. What a shame that he didn't continue


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

Anyone who gives more than 70% to any of Bach, Mozart, Beethoven, Schubert must be exaggerating. Since they love so much of the stuff these composers wrote, I suppose if I "blindtest" these people by posting an unidentified clip of any random part of any obscure piece written by these composers, they must be able to instantly tell what the piece is, giving the exact name and publication number, right?


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## TwoFlutesOneTrumpet (Aug 31, 2011)

hammeredklavier said:


> Anyone who gives more than 70% to any of Bach, Mozart, Beethoven, Schubert must be exaggerating. Since they love so much of the stuff these composers wrote, I suppose if I "blindtest" these people by posting an unidentified clip of any random part of any obscure piece written by these composers, they must be able to instantly tell what the piece is, giving the exact name and publication number, right?


I like all of Beethoven's symphonies, all of his string quartets, many of his other chamber pieces, most of his piano sonatas, his violin concerto, his five piano concertos, most of his overtures. I have not heard everything Beethoven wrote but from what i've heard it's a pretty high percentage that I like.


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## Mifek (Jul 28, 2018)

Chopin ~95%
Bach ~60%
Beethoven ~40%
Tchaikovsky ~40%
Prokofiev ~30%
Mozart ~30%
Schubert ~20%
Brahms ~20%
Shostakovich ~20%
Vivaldi ~15%


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

hammeredklavier said:


> Anyone who gives more than 70% to any of Bach, Mozart, Beethoven, Schubert must be exaggerating. Since they love so much of the stuff these composers wrote, I suppose if I "blindtest" these people by posting an unidentified clip of any random part of any obscure piece written by these composers, they must be able to instantly tell what the piece is, giving the exact name and publication number, right?


Cool your jets. These are just estimates of no significance.


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## Littlephrase (Nov 28, 2018)

hammeredklavier said:


> Anyone who gives more than 70% to any of Bach, Mozart, Beethoven, Schubert must be exaggerating. Since they love so much of the stuff these composers wrote, I suppose if I "blindtest" these people by posting an unidentified clip of any random part of any obscure piece written by these composers, they must be able to instantly tell what the piece is, giving the exact name and publication number, right?


Yes, I could probably do that for those composers. The early works of Mozart and Schubert would be most difficult.


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## Guest002 (Feb 19, 2020)

hammeredklavier said:


> Anyone who gives more than 70% to any of Bach, Mozart, Beethoven, Schubert must be exaggerating. Since they love so much of the stuff these composers wrote, I suppose if I "blindtest" these people by posting an unidentified clip of any random part of any obscure piece written by these composers, they must be able to instantly tell what the piece is, giving the exact name and publication number, right?


You can certainly try me on Bach. 
There are only about 1100 BWV numbers. If you love the cantatas, you're already over 20%.


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

I will answer the question not based on having listened to all of a composer's works (I haven't) but *of what I have heard, how much of it do I like*. Keep in mind that for these composers I've heard a large amount of their complete oeuvre:

Bach 80
Brahms 65
Stravinsky 65
Debussy 80
Liszt	75
Durufle 100
Schumann 60	
Machaut 100
Beethoven 50
Ravel 60	
Poulenc 70
Palestrina 100
Schoeck 75
Weinberg 75
Feldman 100
Carter 100
Bernstein 100
Satie 100
Fauré 70
Webern 100


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## level82rat (Jun 20, 2019)

SanAntone said:


> I will answer the question not based on having listened to all of a composer's works (I haven't) but *of what I have heard, how much of it do I like*. Keep in mind that for these composers I've heard a large amount of their complete oeuvre:
> 
> Bach 80
> Brahms 65
> ...


You must be a very happy man


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## vtpoet (Jan 17, 2019)

level82rat said:


> I greatly enjoy Bach and Mozart yet even with them I don't see it being much over 30%


*Bach* 98% (I've never quite cottoned to the Schemellis Gesangbuch
*Mozart* 98% (Some of his piano variations can get formulaic and a couple of his early sonatas for 2 Pianos, dare I say it, are actually not very good pieces of music-about the only ones I can think of.)
*Beethoven* 98% (There are a handful of early chamber works for Mandolin that he seems to have tossed off with a smidgeon of contempt.)
*Haydn* 85% (His earliest String Quartets, if they're actually his, don't do much for me and, try though I try, the Baryton Trios bore me to tears.
*WF Bach* 95% Even the cantatas.
*CPE Bach* 100% Something about him really appeals to me.
*Schubert* 98% While I'm working (contractor) I'll listen to his entire song cycle.
*Schumann* 70% I want to like is solo piano works more than I do, BUT I CAN ONLY TAKE SO MUCH *FORTE*.
*Grieg* 40% Was listening to his solo piano works and have the same problem with it as I have with Schumann. HE SO OFTEN JUST WANTS TO PLAY THE PIANO AS LOUD AS HE POSSIBLY CAN.
*Brahms* 95% The same tendency in Brahms as in Schumann and Greig, but also grateful breaks of tenderness and introspection. 
*Clementi* 30% Mainly his piano sonatas. His chamber music and orchestral works strike me as very second rate.
*D Scarlatti* 90% I would rather listen to his father's liturgical and orchestral works.
*Monteverdi* 100%
*Stravinsky* 20% But for his top ten, I find his music childishly simplistic after listening to anything Beethoven.
*Mendelssohn* 85%
*Berwald* 30% I want to like him more than I do, but...
*Sibelius* 85% There's some stuff for theater that's great but also some stuff that, for me, doesn't translate well as strictly music.
*Chopin* 10% There are too many moments when it just seems like its virtuosity for virtuosity's sake-scales and runs that almost strike me as meant "to please the crowd".


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## Highwayman (Jul 16, 2018)

Brahms: 95%
Bach: 85%
Beethoven: 65%
Schumann: 75%
Dvořák: 55%
Sibelius: 55%
Schubert: 45%
Fauré: 85%
Mahler: 70%
Mendelssohn: 65%


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

hammeredklavier said:


> Anyone who gives more than 70% to any of Bach, Mozart, Beethoven, Schubert must be exaggerating. Since they love so much of the stuff these composers wrote, I suppose if I "blindtest" these people by posting an unidentified clip of any random part of any obscure piece written by these composers, they must be able to instantly tell what the piece is, giving the exact name and publication number, right?


50 randomly selected excerpts from Bach cantatas:






So who wants to give it a try?



consuono said:


> Nope, not to me. Bach's cantatas alone are collectively to me the greatest achievement in composition. It's just that they haven't been played to death in the way that Beethoven's symphonies have. And...they are at least as distinct in character AND there are over 200 that survive, with nary a clunker in the bunch.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

Littlephrase1913 said:


> The early works of Mozart and Schubert would be most difficult.


















Really? With Mozart, I find the early symphonies (the slow movement of 21th is the first work of his that strikes me as memorable in this genre.), early divertimentos (except the more famous ones like K.251), serenades (except K.203), church sonatas not very memorable. But I actually memorized most of the string quartets and liturgical vocal works. Many of them are "contrapuntally melodic".
I find Missa trinitatis K.167 (1773) memorable from start to finish. I'm not exaggerating, -I've even pointed to elements of this work that are significant with respect to formation of Mozart's later style, in other threads.

Also, think about this:




[Bernstein: "But notice that Mozart's theme is already chromatically formed. And even more so when it repeats"]

when you listen to









or









or









"our analysis shows that even this early Mozart example (K.156) is far more Schoenbergian, more serial than the late Beethoven example (Op.135)". {Strict Serial Technique in Classical Music by Hans Keller - the 9-page article is free to read online if you register}
I actually find early Mozart more significant than early Mendelssohn in terms of expressive use of dissonance:



hammeredklavier said:


> For one thing, I think the use of dissonance in early Mozart is edgier


Likewise, with works like K.65, K.85, K.90, K.125 (the Pignus fugue), K.157, K.168, K.169, K.173, K.183 (the "little" G minor symphony), K.192, K.193, K.194, K.195, and a whole bunch in the K.200s. + K.401 (an early work that had been incorrectly allocated to a high Kochel number.)
I could identify them instantly even if someone "blind-tested" me on these works with any random 10 seconds of excerpts like the Bach cantata compilation video I posted above.










But I won't make claims like "more than 70% of everything Mozart wrote is worth listening to",
or pretend like I actually find them all "significant" or "meaningful".


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## BenG (Aug 28, 2018)

My two extremes.

Liszt: 1% - Only really keen on B minor Sonata and maybe Faust Symphony.
Mahler: 95% - the 8th always gets in the way, despite its great moments.


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## Guest002 (Feb 19, 2020)

hammeredklavier said:


> 50 randomly selected excerpts from Bach cantatas:
> 
> So who wants to give it a try?


I'm not going to do all 50 in one sitting, because I think you've been a bit mean in picking on the cantatas... and then not including _any_ of the singing, which is what makes a cantata a cantata! I also think if you split it into five sets of 10, I'd do more of them at a time, but concentrating for 50 in one sitting is just silly. I also think a gap between each one might be a nice touch of consideration for your listeners, as the abrupt transitions really throw the mind out each time, making it difficult to think clearly.

So I'll do the first eleven. I won't bother listing the specific movement within the cantata, but I can do that if you insist.

1. Preise dien Glücke gesegnetes Sachsen BWV 215 
2. Ach, ich sehe itzt, da ich zur Hochzeit gehe, BWV 162
3. Ärgre dich, o Seele, nicht BWV 186
4. Ich freue mich in dir, BWV 133
5. Weichet nur, betrübte Schatten, BWV 202
6. Was Gott tut, das ist wohlgetan, BWV 99
7. Allein zu dir, Herr Jesu Christ, BWV 33
8. Meinen Jesum laß ich ncht, BWV 124
9. Wer mich liebet, der wird mein Wort halten, BWV 74
10. Seht, wir gehen hinauf gen Jerusalem, BWV 159
11. Jesus nahm zu sich die Zwölfe, BWV 22

I did another 5 or 6 after:

12. Ich bin vergnügt mit meinem Glücke, BWV 84
13. Wir danken dir, Gott, wir danken dir, BWV 29
14. Ich ge' und suche mit Verlangen, BWV 49
15. Laß, Fürstin, laß noch einen Strahl also known as Trauerode, BWV 198
16. I don't know
17. O Ewigkeit du Donnerwort, BWV 60

And three more to make it a round number:

18. Zerreißet, Zersprenget, BWV 205 (?)
19. Jesu, nun sei gepreiset, BWV 41
20. Christum wir sollen loben schon, BWV 121

But now I'm knackered and need a stiff drink.

OK, that cup of tea finished, I did five more...

21. Was willst du dich betrüben, BWV 107
22. Preise, Jerusalem, den Herrn, BWV 119
23. Gott, man lobet dich in der Stille, BWV 120
24. Was mein Gott will, das g'scheh allzeit, BWV 111
25. Christus, der ist mein Leben, BWV 95 (one of my favourites, and it's the 'schlage doch bald' aria)

Another batch:

26. Zweig und Äste from BWV 205
27. Gelobet seist du, Jesu Christ, BWV 91
28. Don't know
29. Was Got tut, das ist Wohlgetan, BWV 100
30. Dem Gerechten muß das Licht, BWV 195
31. Sie werden aus Saba alle kommen, BWV 65
32. Don't know.
33. Gott ist unsre Zuversicht, BWV 197
34. Süsser Trost, mein Jesu kömmt, BWV 151
35. Er rufet seinen Schafen mit Namen, BWV 175
36. Mache dich, mein Geist, bereit, BWV 115

Another few to round the numbers up again

37. Wohl dem, der sich auf seinen Gott, BWV 139
38. Also hat Gott die Welt geliebt, BWV 68
39. Herr Jesu Christ, du höchstes Gut, BWV 113
40. Wer Dank opfert, der preiset mich, BWV 17

And finally...

41. Ich lasse dich nicht, du segnest mich denn, BWV 157 (not sure, though)
42. Ein ungefärbt Gemüte, BWV 24
43. Don't know
44. Höchsterwünschtes Freudenfest, BWV 194
45. Laßt uns sorgen, laßt uns wachen, BWV 213
46. Uns ist ein Kind geboren, BWV 142
47. Man singet mit Freuden vom Sieg, BWV 149
48. Du wahrer Gott und Davids Sohn, BWV 23
49. Auf Christi Himmelfahrt allein, BWV 128
50. Wer nur den lieben Gott lässt walten, BWV 93

I should add that #18 is a puzzle, as I've got that work listed as BWV 205 in my music library, but I think that might be an error for 202. Not sure, hence the question mark. Personally, I've only translated the cantatas up to about number 151, so anything higher than that is a bit of a struggle for me at the moment: I noticed you were fairly free with the _secular_ cantatas, for example!


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## level82rat (Jun 20, 2019)

AbsolutelyBaching said:


> 1. Preise dien Glücke gesegnetes Sachsen BWV 215
> 2. Ach, ich sehe itzt, da ich zur Hochzeit gehe, BWV 162
> 3. Ärgre dich, o Seele, nicht BWV 186
> 4. Ich freue mich in dir, BWV 133
> ...


Unless you looked it up, the fact that you know the German names makes it all the more impressive


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## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

AbsolutelyBaching said:


> I'm not going to do all 50 in one sitting, because I think you've been a bit mean in picking on the cantatas... and then not including _any_ of the singing, which is what makes a cantata a cantata! I also think if you split it into five sets of 10, I'd do more of them at a time, but concentrating for 50 in one sitting is just silly. I also think a gap between each one might be a nice touch of consideration for your listeners, as the abrupt transitions really throw the mind out each time, making it difficult to think clearly.


Wow, I was right in calling you AbsoluteBachKing.


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## Guest002 (Feb 19, 2020)

level82rat said:


> Unless you looked it up, the fact that you know the German names makes it all the more impressive


Well, that's how I know and catalogue my cantatas, I'm afraid:









How else do you catalogue them?

The fact I'm stalled in the middle of translating them all is a bit of a cheat on my part, I will confess!


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

AbsolutelyBaching said:


> I'm not going to do all 50 in one sitting, because I think you've been a bit mean in picking on the cantatas... and then not including _any_ of the singing, which is what makes a cantata a cantata! I also think if you split it into five sets of 10, I'd do more of them at a time, but concentrating for 50 in one sitting is just silly. I also think a gap between each one might be a nice touch of consideration for your listeners, as the abrupt transitions really throw the mind out each time, making it difficult to think clearly.


Wow. You're amazing. (I heard of one person in another site who could do this with Haydn symphonies, you're even more impressive than him). You did know what you were talking about when you gave "70%" to Bach. 
Btw, the remaining ones are:
16. BWV170
28. BWV208
32. BWV212
43. BWV136


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## Guest002 (Feb 19, 2020)

hammeredklavier said:


> Wow. You're amazing. (I heard of one person in another site who could do this with Haydn symphonies, you're even more impressive than him). You did know what you were talking about when you gave "70%" to Bach.
> Btw, the remaining ones are:
> 16. BWV170
> 28. BWV208
> ...


Ah... see: the pesky 200s! I haven't got that far, even for drafting translations. That's why I'm rusty with them. I should have known 136, though. 

Thank you for the gap-fills.


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## level82rat (Jun 20, 2019)

AbsolutelyBaching said:


> Ah... see: the pesky 200s! I haven't got that far, even for drafting translations. That's why I'm rusty with them. I should have known 136, though.
> 
> Thank you for the gap-fills.


Are these translations just a personal project or will we ever hear them performed?


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## Guest002 (Feb 19, 2020)

level82rat said:


> Are these translations just a personal project or will we ever hear them performed?


Just personal. They're not _metrical_ at all, so you wouldn't be able to sing anything with them as the words. They started about 8 years ago as my intermittent attempt to understand what the hell all the cantatas were on about (short version, as it turns out: guilt, death, sin). I kicked them off again earlier this year after a long time in the pending pile. I thought I'd have them finished by end of September... but real life intervened and I've paused them again, indefinitely.

I'll definitely finish them one day soon-ish, though.


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## vtpoet (Jan 17, 2019)

AbsolutelyBaching said:


> They started about 8 years ago as my intermittent attempt to understand what the hell all the cantatas were on about (short version, as it turns out: guilt, death, sin).


I'm German/American and speak both languages. And I listen to the complete cantata cycle at least five to six times a year while working (the beauty of being a manual laborer-carpenter, builder, contracter) -also Schubert's song cycle, Schumann, Haydn and M Haydn Symphonies, String Quartets, Beethoven's everything, etc...

But getting back to understanding German... I try not to. Even when listening to Handel's operas (all of them as I work) I can manage to ignore what they're actually saying and just listen to the voice and music (and try to ignore the #$&! counter-tenors). I suppose some purists might be horrified by that, but if I actually listened to what was being said in some of Bach's Cantatas? Might ruin it. On the other hand, they're not all about sin and guilt; and nobody paints words the way Bach does.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

vtpoet said:


> On the other hand, they're not all about sin and guilt


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## Guest002 (Feb 19, 2020)

vtpoet said:


> I'm German/American and speak both languages. And I listen to the complete cantata cycle at least five to six times a year while working (the beauty of being a manual laborer-carpenter, builder, contracter) -also Schubert's song cycle, Schumann, Haydn and M Haydn Symphonies, String Quartets, Beethoven's everything, etc...
> 
> But getting back to understanding German... I try not to. Even when listening to Handel's operas (all of them as I work) I can manage to ignore what they're actually saying and just listen to the voice and music (and try to ignore the #$&! counter-tenors). I suppose some purists might be horrified by that, but if I actually listened to what was being said in some of Bach's Cantatas? Might ruin it. On the other hand, they're not all about sin and guilt; and nobody paints words the way Bach does.


No, I'm entirely with you on the subject as far as, say, opera librettos are concerned. I don't need to know the details of what a character is singing (though getting the overall context and gist of angry/forlorn/moody/revengeful is helpful) to be able to understand and enjoy an opera.

But Bach's texts are so curiously personal, I don't think that applies. I didn't think so, anyway. I was joking about them all being about guilt, sin and death, by the way! In some of them, you get an overwhelming sense of how harsh life must have been in the 18th Century: it's quite touching, in its own right, never mind what the music is doing.

I can certainly agree that one doesn't _need_ to know the meaning of the words to enjoy the cantatas. But I have found puzzling the meaning out to be a rewarding experience and one that has definitely enhanced my appreciation of the music they contain. (Trivial example: the words talk about life being an up-and-down wavelike affair, and suddenly you hear up-and-down arpeggios in the strings: you might not have noticed that _musical_ gesture if the words hadn't pointed you to listen for them).


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## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

vtpoet said:


> I'm German/American and speak both languages. And I listen to the complete cantata cycle at least five to six times a year while working (the beauty of being a manual laborer-carpenter, builder, contracter) -also Schubert's song cycle, Schumann, Haydn and M Haydn Symphonies, String Quartets, Beethoven's everything, etc...
> 
> But getting back to understanding German... I try not to . . . On the other hand, they're not all about sin and guilt; and nobody paints words the way Bach does.


I wish I were fluent in German just for all the magnificent choral music. I don't listen to choral music as much as I would like because I don't have time to sit with my head buried in a libretto. But it does lift the guilt off me to see someone who does understand German paying attention to the music over the words.


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## Guest002 (Feb 19, 2020)

hammeredklavier said:


>


Oh, that's a bit unfair!! I was strictly talking about the _sacred_ cantatas ...in my own head at least  They are _mostly_ about guilt, sin and death, though hell occasionally gets a look in, as does a bit of Muslim or Catholic-bashing


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## Guest002 (Feb 19, 2020)

Manxfeeder said:


> I wish I were fluent in German just for all the magnificent choral music. I don't listen to choral music as much as I would like because I don't have time to sit with my head buried in a libretto. But it does lift the guilt off me to see someone who does understand German paying attention to the music over the words.


As a strictly Engish _speaker_, I can tell you that there are lots of English operas that I don't have a clue what anyone is singing at the time  (Sopranos are the worst... <runs & hides>...)

So long as I know the vague outlines of what's being sung, I'm fine with sitting there in my ignorance, enjoying just the music. If it's a Handel oratorio, for example, I'll read the relevant Bible or Apocrypha story and guess onwards from there. So long as you've got the gist of the story, the details can be broadbrushed away!


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## vtpoet (Jan 17, 2019)

AbsolutelyBaching said:


> So long as I know the vague outlines of what's being sung, I'm fine with sitting there in my ignorance, enjoying just the music. If it's a Handel oratorio, for example, I'll read the relevant Bible or Apocrypha story and guess onwards from there. So long as you've got the gist of the story, the details can be broadbrushed away!


That's my approach as well. The bliss of ignorance.


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## Jacck (Dec 24, 2017)

Manxfeeder said:


> I wish I were fluent in German just for all the magnificent choral music. I don't listen to choral music as much as I would like because I don't have time to sit with my head buried in a libretto. But it does lift the guilt off me to see someone who does understand German paying attention to the music over the words.


I am not a native speaker, but I am quite fluent in German (I lived 7 years in German speaking countries). Some operas are easier to understand than others. For example Wagner is really tough, even when reading the libretto, because he uses a very archaic and unusual German. Other operas are easier to understand - For example Moses und Aron by Schoenberg or Die Harmonie der Welt by Hindemith are much easier to understand for me.

and for Bach - be glad you dont understand the lyrics, they are mostly really silly (the cantatas) or they are simply part of the bible set into music (the evangeliums)


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## vtpoet (Jan 17, 2019)

Jacck said:


> ...and for Bach - be glad you dont understand the lyrics, they are mostly really silly (the cantatas) or they are simply part of the bible set into music (the evangeliums)


The Brockes Passion, which both Handel and Telemann composed music to, is a perfect example of that. One is far better off having no clue as to what is being sung. Imagine Mel Gibson's "Passion of Christ" put to music by a Telemann, Bach or Händel. And ask yourself if you really need to know...


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## CnC Bartok (Jun 5, 2017)

Jacck said:


> Ravel and Janáček would have a very high percentage with me, given their small output and great quality


Agree 100% on the quality idea, but Janacek maybe composed a lot more stuff than you are giving him credit for, surely? All those choral pieces, the folksong arrangements? I'd love it if there was someone else out there who's a big fan of the Moravian Folk Poetry in Songs!


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## TwoFlutesOneTrumpet (Aug 31, 2011)

Jacck said:


> Ravel and Janáček would have a very high percentage with me, given their small output and great quality


Ravel has over 100 compositions to his name. That's hardly a small output.


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## Jacck (Dec 24, 2017)

TwoFlutesOneTrumpet said:


> Ravel has over 100 compositions to his name. That's hardly a small output.


Ravel's complete works fit into 21 CDs
https://www.amazon.com/Ravel-Complete-Works-Various/dp/B08B7LNDSN
21*60 minutes = 21 hours. 
Compared to other composers, this is relatively slim


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## Jacck (Dec 24, 2017)

CnC Bartok said:


> Agree 100% on the quality idea, but Janacek maybe composed a lot more stuff than you are giving him credit for, surely? All those choral pieces, the folksong arrangements? I'd love it if there was someone else out there who's a big fan of the Moravian Folk Poetry in Songs!


I am a fan of the Moravian Folk Poetry in Songs, but I still prefer the original folk music to the arrangements
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_mgb1vle7NA75jjiZo27i1crbBAC3yR0Ng


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## TwoFlutesOneTrumpet (Aug 31, 2011)

Jacck said:


> Ravel's complete works fit into 21 CDs
> https://www.amazon.com/Ravel-Complete-Works-Various/dp/B08B7LNDSN
> 21*60 minutes = 21 hours.
> Compared to other composers, this is relatively slim


True, he wrote a lot of short pieces. I have probably heard a quarter of what he wrote and of that I like about a quarter. I find his music extremely beautiful on the surface but lacking depth.


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## consuono (Mar 27, 2020)

hammeredklavier said:


> [
> But I won't make claims like "more than 70% of everything Mozart wrote is worth listening to",
> or pretend like I actually find them all "significant" or "meaningful".


But then Bach doesn't have a big wad of relatively uninteresting juvenilia leading off his body of work. "Juvenilia" for Bach would be things like cantatas 4 and 106.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

consuono said:


> But then Bach doesn't have a big wad of relatively uninteresting juvenilia leading off his body of work. "Juvenilia" for Bach would be things like cantatas 4 and 106.


Whether you view something as juvenila or not is a subjective matter. Some people might say Bach's passacaglia Bwv582 or toccatas for harpsichord are juvenila. Bach actually went to Buxtehude for instructions around the time he wrote bwv582. Likewise, Mozart wrote this 2 weeks before his 13th birthday, I still find it enjoyable and that's what matters to me the most.


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## Isaac Blackburn (Feb 26, 2020)

Let me think of composers to mark off the quartiles:
Mahler: 100%
Beethoven: 75%
Dvorak: 50%
Schoenberg: 25%
Debussy: 0%

P.S.*Lizst: Below Zero*


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## level82rat (Jun 20, 2019)

Isaac Blackburn said:


> Debussy: 0%
> 
> P.S.*Lizst: Below Zero*


Are there any keyboard-heavy composers you enjoy above 0%?


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## Isaac Blackburn (Feb 26, 2020)

Almost all of them. Bach's keyboard works are beyond description, Schumann I find myself returning to regularly, and Rachmaninoff, at the other end of C-P music, is also great.

Really the only other keyboard composer who I am lukewarm on is Chopin, but even though much of his music does not resonate with me, some of it I find absolutely transcendent (ex. the Ballades, Sonatas.)


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## consuono (Mar 27, 2020)

hammeredklavier said:


> Whether you view something as juvenila or not is a subjective matter. Some people might say Bach's passacaglia Bwv582 or toccatas for harpsichord are juvenila. Bach actually went to Buxtehude for instructions around the time he wrote bwv582. ...


I would say maybe they are too, or maybe simply "early"; but there is something of an objective measure in level of interest and analysis. I wouldn't call those works by Bach "juvenilia" though, which is a fairly objective term. Bach seems to have started composing when he had something substantial to say. The least interesting works by Bach to me anyway are the keyboard toccatas, but even so they probably generate more interest and playing time than most early Mozart works.


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## Botschaft (Aug 4, 2017)

level82rat said:


> Are there any keyboard-heavy composers you enjoy above 0%?


Beethoven, clearly.


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## level82rat (Jun 20, 2019)

Waldesnacht said:


> Beethoven, clearly.


Was thinking more along the lines of Chopin and Alkan.


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## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

Those who put down 10% for Mozart - thinking - I dont like that many pieces - 10% should cover it.

really? There are something like 700 pieces that have been attributed to Mozart - so 70 pieces of music.

That's quite a lot.

As for me I have not listened to the whole lot. Maybe only 50% of it - but properly chosen - and of that 50% maybe half I love.

So 25% - or 50% of what I have heard.

Though the really beloved works would be fewer.

But that still will leave me with 200 or so pieces.

For Beethoven it would be something like 5%. All the symphonies the concerti a dozen ps a couple of quartets missa solemnis.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

PlaySalieri said:


> Those who put down 10% for Mozart - thinking - I dont like that many pieces - 10% should cover it.
> really? There are something like 700 pieces that have been attributed to Mozart - so 70 pieces of music.


I think Mozart's authentic works are less than 600, since there are works that have been moved to the K. Ahn list. (due to misattribution) I once expressed my view that Mozart didn't write that much "crap" as some people might think. For example, he only wrote like 16 complete operas, (the other ones are either collaborate/incomplete works or incidental music) and I think spatzenmesse K.220 and misericordias domini K.222 from year 1775 are pretty decent, they're mentioned in Mozart's letters , and Sussmayr and Levin later referenced them. (Listen to the qui tollis and crucifixus) But works nearest to them in Kochel number, K.221 and K.223 were found to be not Mozart's authentic works and have been removed from the catalogue.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

I find this to be the most interesting work Mozart wrote at 20. 
It consists of 9 movements, but there are elements of contrast and connections between them:
_"hostia sancta"_ (9:24), which comes after the dark, solemn _"verbum caro factum"_ (8:03) feels brighter by contrast, but it also has its dark elements of contrast constantly injecting a sense of tension, within itself:
[10:55]: _"stupendum supra omina miracula"_,
as if "darkness" hasn't been yet fully achieved, it naturally leads through a transition to the darkest movement of the work,
[13:45]: _"tremendum ac vivificum"_.
[21:48]: the diminished 7th that concludes _"dulcissimum convivium"_ leads to the diminished 7th that opens the 'otherworldly' _"viaticum in domino morientium"_.
[24:04]: _"pignus futurae gloriae"_, an expansive double fugue styled distinctively unique from the Baroque tradition.
[34:25]: _"miserere nobis"_ (the final movement) quotes _"kyrie eleison"_ (the first movement) and develops on the theme.


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## Bxnwebster (Jan 5, 2021)

*Haydn:* 15% - Although I have never been disappointed by any Haydn work, some of his music just doesn't resonate with me (which is expected given the size of his output). When Haydn does it well for me, he does it very well.
*Korngold* 99% - I am not one to speak objectively about "perfect" music, but Korngold is (in my own perspective) probably the composer I enjoy who always uses the "correct" material. There has never been a piece by Korngold that I do not enjoy aside from his piano concerto, which is disappointing to me. If he had not composed this concerto, he would be at 100% for me.
*Reger:* 50% - Although Reger is quite possibly my all-time favorite composer (or tied with Korngold), he is really hit or miss for me. I enjoy almost every single one of his orchestral works, but I am let down by some of his chamber music and (especially) his piano works. For instance, I would say that I enjoy about 50% of his chamber music (sonatas, quartets, etc.) whereas I enjoy only about 5% of his piano works because, aside from the Bach variations, it all feels uninspired. Nonetheless, when Reger does it well, he really hits the mark and overpowers the less-enjoyable works. With such a large output, it is very likely that Reger would be hit-or-miss.
*R. Schumann:* 90% - For the most part, Schumann is consistently enjoyable for me, although there are some very minor exceptions.
*Scriabin:* 60% - There is no Scriabin that I do not like, but I listen more to his earlier/middle works than his later works.
*Villa-Lobos:* 50% - Similar to Haydn and Reger, Villa-Lobos has an extensive output so he can be hit-or-miss.
*Zelenka:* 100% - Although I have not even come close to hearing every recorded work written by Zelenka, I enjoy every piece of his that I have heard.


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## Ethereality (Apr 6, 2019)

I could easily 100% Mozart.


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## Alinde (Feb 8, 2020)

In order of my love of my top composers. The per cents reflect the proportion of their work (familiar to me) that I've been passionate about (so far):


Bach 85 per cent
Schubert 80 per cent
Mozart 60 per cent
Beethoven 50 per cent
Schumann 50 per cent
Wolf 95 per cent
Brahms 50 per cent
Debussy/ Ravel/ Faure (dead heat) 50 per cent
Monteverdi 90 per cent
Wilbye 95 per cent
Scarlatti 20 per cent


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