# Beethoven's cello sonatas



## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

There seems to be some feeling, here and elsewhere, that Ludwig's cello sonatas are kind of second rate. What do you think? I admit I'm quite a fan...

If you like them, what are your favorite performances?


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## Guest (Mar 16, 2013)

KenOC said:


> There seems to be some feeling, here and elsewhere, that Ludwig's cello sonatas are kind of second rate. What do you think? I admit I'm quite a fan...
> 
> If you like them, what are your favorite performances?


*ABSOLUTELY NOT SECOND RATE*. The Cello Sonatas of Opus 102 are quite revolutionary!! I played (on CD player) the D Major, Op. 102, No. 2 for my lecture last Thursday to demonstrate this first major work in Beethoven's radical new shift to his "third period". This was a period instruments performance and the Allegro Fugato of that sonata is angular, radical and marvellous. The earlier cello sonata Op.69 in A Major is lyrical and quite charming but not quite the equal of Opus 102!! The version of Opus 102 No. 2 was by Melvyn Tan and Anthony Pleeth.

Charles Rosen says, "the forms of late Beethoven descend clearly and directly from Haydn's technique of allowing the music to flow out of a small kernel; the simplest, most condensed of musical thoughts announced, generally, at the very opening. During what is called his "third period" Beethoven extended this technique far beyond any limits that could previously have been imagined"(The Classical Style, p.405).

I love this condensed, coiled and centripetal musical thought above any other!!


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Indeed! I've heard the Op. 102 #2's fugato described as "spikey," which seems right. I think it's kind of comparable to the fugato in the development section of the final movement of the piano sonata Op. 101. Guess that's not very surprising.

I also VERY much enjoy the long, luxurious Op. 5 cello sonatas from an earlier age, pleasing to kings.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Probably not centre to the repertoire unless you are a cellist. But great music. Try Rostropovich and Richter.


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

I find them disappointing (have them in the Harrell/Ashkenazy version). Last time I played them I turned them off after 10 minutes or so.


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## Guest (Mar 16, 2013)

Art Rock said:


> I find them disappointing (have them in the Harrell/Ashkenazy version). Last time I played them I turned them off after 10 minutes or so.


Yep, they're definitely an acquired taste and not for everybody. But then, most music is!!:tiphat:


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## JCarmel (Feb 3, 2013)

They are great!

This was the BBC recommendation when they last reviewed the works for Building a Library....which is good, as I bought it following that recommendation.









But the single best recording of a Beethoven Cello Sonata I ever heard, I have on an EMI cassette only...and I'd love to be able to get a single cd or digital download of it. I think it is part of a big-box EMI collection 'The Great EMI recordings' at 35 pounds?!
It's by Paul Tortelier and his daughter Maria de la Pau...it is wonderful, infectious music-making. I start singing-along a minute or two into the tape and carry-on... till I turn the tape over to listen to the other side, and then resume singing joyfully till the end....through a great performance of Schubert's Arpeggione Sonata. I've got Rostropovich and Britten's famed recording of that on cd but it's nothing like as enjoyable as the Torteliers...(but that's just my opinion)


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## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

For some reason many 'triers' of these sonatas fail to grasp that they are labeled 'sonatas for piano and cello' for a reason. Not only is the piano 'first among equals' in material, Beethoven had in mind that the cello could overpower the pianos he was familiar with. This 'damping' of the cello part is particularly apparent in the Op. 5 set, but it's still an obvious concern in Op. 69. Even in Op. 102, the cello never comes close to drowning out the piano, though it _is_ given more of the meat to chew on.

If the listener will at least focus on the gestalt, rather than the cello part, he has a better chance of hearing the message.

:tiphat:

[I have a half dozen or so sets of the 'cello sonatas', but none of then are played on Baroque instruments. Got to do something about that.]


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## Weston (Jul 11, 2008)

Hilltroll72 said:


> If the listener will at least focus on the gestalt, rather than the cello part, he has a better chance of hearing the message.


I can vouch for this statement. I play my music on shuffle play and headphones at work and I like to play "Name That Tune" to relieve boredom. More than once when one of these sonatas comes up I think, "Ah - that's one of the Beethoven piano sonatas, and a nice one, but which?" I don't have even the piano sonatas totally memorized, so when the cello comes in I get it. I enjoy them as sonatas.

It's the same with the violin sonatas, though I get irritated when the performer feels compelled to overuse vibrato. It is less noticeable with cello.

Sadly all of mine are Naxos recordings, but these are solid unobtrusive performances.


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## JEdwards (Oct 6, 2020)

JCarmel said:


> They are great!
> 
> This was the BBC recommendation when they last reviewed the works for Building a Library....which is good, as I bought it following that recommendation.
> 
> ...


I bought the same Brendel/Brendel version because of the same recommendation. It, too, is a sing-along version. Unfortunately, it appears to be Brendel Sr. doing the singing! I returned it. (Let's leave the singing to GG, shall we?)

I love the cello sonatas. My favorite version at present is Queyras/Melnikov on Harmonia Mundi. Beautiful playing. Exquisite sound. I'll keep an eye out for the Torteliers.


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## JEdwards (Oct 6, 2020)

https://www.amazon.com/Beethoven-Co...83JGAV0P6K2&psc=1&refRID=KMYA6PZ2N83JGAV0P6K2

This link shows the Queyras/Melnikov performance at prices of $19.88 from Amazon, new at from $12.66, and used at from $7.50, all of which are much lower than the price that I paid for it. Strangely, varying the search terms for this same product take you to different sites for this same performance at much higher prices. Go figure.


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## SONNET CLV (May 31, 2014)

A fan of cello music in general, I enjoy the Beethoven sonatas immensely. They remain among my top "go-to's" in the Beethoven oeuvre. I always enjoy hearing a new interpretation of these works and have quite a few in my current stash of discs. No one favorite.


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## Judith (Nov 11, 2015)

Love them. My favourite one is the A major opus 69 but all of them are lovely. 

My set is performed by

Steven Isserlis
Robert Levin


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## Triplets (Sep 4, 2014)

Rostropovich/Richter will dispel any notion that this is second rate Beethoven


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## wkasimer (Jun 5, 2017)

Judith said:


> Steven Isserlis
> Robert Levin


This is one of my favorites, too. But there are many really excellent recordings of these works. Unfortunately, some of the biggest names are the most disappointing - and in this group I include Rostropovich/Richter, Fournier/Kempff, Fournier/Gulda, Ma/Ax, and Harrell/Ashkenazy. It's usually the pianist who disappoints, forgetting that, particularly in the early works, the piano part is more important. Big names don't always translate into great performances of these works.

Some of the great ones are Isserlis/Levin, Tortelier/Heidsieck, Argerich/Maisky, Perenyi/Schiff, and I still have a soft spot for Casals/Serkin, my imprint version from when it was on warped Odyssey LP's. And there are a bunch of excellent "sleeper" versions, like Vogler/Canino, Finckel/Han, Kirshbaum/Wosner, and Schiff/Fellner.


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## Caryatid (Mar 28, 2020)

The middle sonata, Op. 69, is one of Beethoven's greatest works - superior to any of the violin sonatas, to my mind. I also enjoy Op. 102. I don't find the Op. 5 sonatas so impressive, but they are still easy on the ear.

For a period-instrument recording of the complete sonatas, I'd recommend Matt Haimovitz and Christopher O'Riley.


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## Brahmsian Colors (Sep 16, 2016)

I especially enjoy his Cello Sonata No. 3 with Harrell and Ashkenazy.


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## wkasimer (Jun 5, 2017)

JCarmel said:


> But the single best recording of a Beethoven Cello Sonata I ever heard, I have on an EMI cassette only...and I'd love to be able to get a single cd or digital download of it. I think it is part of a big-box EMI collection 'The Great EMI recordings' at 35 pounds?!
> It's by Paul Tortelier and his daughter Maria de la Pau...


This is a fantastic set for anyone with any interest in the cello repertoire. But IIRC, the Beethoven sonatas are the ones with Heidsieck, not de la Pau. The latter might be found elsewhere, perhaps in the "Les Introuvables de Paul Tortelier" set.


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## wkasimer (Jun 5, 2017)

An HIP set that it's easy to forget about is by cellist Anssi Karttunen and Tuija Hakkila. It was originally issued by Finlandia, but has since been reissued on Warner's Apex sublabel. These are high energetic, extrovert performances:









Another great modern version that's under the radar is by David Geringas and Ian Fountain; it's 3 discs, and includes every bit of music that Beethoven wrote or arranged for cello:


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## vincula (Jun 23, 2020)

wkasimer said:


> Another great modern version that's under the radar is by David Geringas and Ian Fountain; it's 3 discs, and includes every bit of music that Beethoven wrote or arranged for cello:
> 
> View attachment 145311


i've got this 3 cd set and I'm very fond of it. I listen to it quite often. Nice as it is, my Maisky/Argerich Dg album doesn't get whirled so often any more.

Regards,

Vincula


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## vtpoet (Jan 17, 2019)

For me, it all hinges on the performance. There do seem to be a lot of lack lustre performances of these pieces, including by Ashkenazy in my opinion. My favorite performance, right now, is by Andras Schiff—energetic and rugged performances. He really digs into the keyboard.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

vtpoet said:


> For me, it all hinges on the performance. There do seem to be a lot of lack lustre performances of these pieces, including by Ashkenazy in my opinion. My favorite performance, right now, is by Andras Schiff-energetic and rugged performances. He really digs into the keyboard.


I have the Schiff/Perenyi set and thought it suffered because Schiff's playing was so strong and arresting (not too loud, mind you) that it put Perenyi somewhat in the shade. But I need to listen again...


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## Ras (Oct 6, 2017)

wkasimer said:


> Some of the great ones are Isserlis/Levin, Tortelier/Heidsieck, Argerich/Maisky, Perenyi/Schiff, and I still have a soft spot for Casals/Serkin, my imprint version from when it was on warped Odyssey LP's. And there are a bunch of excellent "sleeper" versions, like Vogler/Canino, Finckel/Han, Kirshbaum/Wosner, and Schiff/Fellner.


You forgot Wispelwey!


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## wkasimer (Jun 5, 2017)

Ras said:


> You forgot Wispelwey!


You're right. Certainly not intentional!

I also forgot Fournier/Schnabel, which I think that, sonics aside, is superior to his recordings with Gulda and Kempff.


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## wkasimer (Jun 5, 2017)

KenOC said:


> I have the Schiff/Perenyi set and thought it suffered because Schiff's playing was so strong and arresting (not too loud, mind you) that it put Perenyi somewhat in the shade. But I need to listen again...


That's probably why I like it. A strong pianist with a less assertive cellist is better in these works than the opposite.


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## vtpoet (Jan 17, 2019)

wkasimer said:


> That's probably why I like it. A strong pianist with a less assertive cellist is better in these works than the opposite.


And why I also like it.


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

My favored set by far is Coin/Cohen playing period instruments on Harmonia Mundi. Unfortunately, it's been deleted for a few years now.


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## Varick (Apr 30, 2014)

I have a few sets of these: 

- Du Pre/Barneboim (meh)
- Du Pre/Kovacevich (better)
- Rostropovich/Richter (excellent)

I never see Jackie mentioned much as a cellist on this board. Years ago, my mother gifted me the 6 CD box set of "Les Introuvables De Jacqueline Du Pré." She loved her playing. She always loved classical music but was never a student of it like I was. I think I know why Du Pre is not mentioned here that often: After going through that box set more than once, and particularly when I obtain another recording of something I already have by her and do a comparison, she has never really rung my bell with her playing, and her version of something has never been my favorite compared to anyone else. Coupled up with Barenboim certainly doesn't help (although I think his piano playing is much better than his conducting). Shame she left us so early.

Just wondering what some other cello aficionados think of Jackie.

V


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## thejewk (Sep 13, 2020)

I'm reading the Swafford Beethoven book at present, and listening along to the works as they appear in the text. Just listening to the Op 5 pieces as I write this and I find them melodic and delightful. 

The way the melody is constantly handed back and forth between the instruments is lovely and creates a sing song feel to the pieces. Unfortunately the only version I have at the moment is from the Bach Guild Big Beethoven Box which are fine performances by Janigro and Demus, but are full of audio glitches.


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## consuono (Mar 27, 2020)

> Just wondering what some other cello aficionados think of Jackie.


Similar to the way I feel about Glenn Gould in the piano realm:


> ...she has never really rung my bell with her playing, and her version of something has never been my favorite compared to anyone else.


But then her time of musical activity was cut so short by her illness that it really isn't fair to make that kind of judgement.


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## thejewk (Sep 13, 2020)

I'm just listening to the Op 102 sonatas by Bylsma and Immerseel, and I'm being blown away. Really beautiful sound, and full of feeling.


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