# The Beethoven Plagiarist Thread



## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

BECAUSE JOHN ELIOT GARDINER SAID SO ut:


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## jani (Jun 15, 2012)

Yea, i know that Beethoven got the idea for his 1st mvt of his moonlight sonata from Mozarts Don Giovanni, (arpeggios then he transcribed them to C# min)
But one of the qualities of creative genius is to realize the quality/possibilities on materials and use it the best way possible!
I don't see anything bad about borrowing ideas as long as its not 100% copied.


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## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

You can't argue with JEG!


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## hocket (Feb 21, 2010)

Very interesting, thanks for the link.


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## Carpenoctem (May 15, 2012)

Nice video, I haven't seen this before.


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## AmateurComposer (Sep 13, 2009)

jani said:


> I don't see anything bad about borrowing ideas as long as its not 100% copied.


Very interesting. I wonder about the percentage figure. For example, I am curious to know what percentage would you assign in the case of the theme from Orpheus copied into the Carnival of the Animals?


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## Crudblud (Dec 29, 2011)

^That was only 96%, but I guess we could round it up if we decide we don't like Saint-Saëns.


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## jani (Jun 15, 2012)

AmateurComposer said:


> Very interesting. I wonder about the percentage figure. For example, I am curious to know what percentage would you assign in the case of the theme from Orpheus copied into the Carnival of the Animals?


With 100% copied i meant exactly the same, no changes at all.


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## AmateurComposer (Sep 13, 2009)

jani said:


> With 100% copied i meant exactly the same, no changes at all.


1. You are very generous to the plagiarists. According to your statement, anything short of photocopying the score and replacing the composer's name is not a plagiarism.

2. You did not answer my question. Crudblud assigned 96%. What percentage would you have assigned?


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## jani (Jun 15, 2012)

AmateurComposer said:


> 1. You are very generous to the plagiarists. According to your statement, anything short of photocopying the score and replacing the composer's name is not a plagiarism.
> 
> 2. You did not answer my question. Crudblud assigned 96%. What percentage would you have assigned?


1.I meant the note choice, note duration's etc..
2. I am familiar with the CoA, but not with the other piece you mean't . Link?!?


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## graaf (Dec 12, 2009)

Well, at least OP can sleep tight - Ligeti couldn't possibly plagiarize anyone. After all, every fart is unique...


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## neoshredder (Nov 7, 2011)

graaf said:


> Well, at least OP can sleep tight - Ligeti couldn't possibly plagiarize anyone. After all, every fart is unique...


Could this be the worst post ever on TC?


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## Crudblud (Dec 29, 2011)

graaf said:


> Well, at least OP can sleep tight - Ligeti couldn't possibly plagiarize anyone. After all, every fart is unique...


Stop.

P.S.: Stop.


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## graaf (Dec 12, 2009)

neoshredder said:


> Could this be the worst post ever on TC?


Don't know about that, but I do know it served its purpose.

PS


Crudblud said:


> Stop.
> 
> P.S.: Stop.


See?


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## Arsakes (Feb 20, 2012)

Now these plagiarist threads become more ridiculous and ugly. *decides not to open any of them anymore*


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

graaf said:


> Well, at least OP can sleep tight - Ligeti couldn't possibly plagiarize anyone. After all, every fart is unique...


Don't even go there. I don't want you to have a bad reputation for trolling and starting flame wars. If you have nothing nice to say, don't say anything at all.


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## Carpenoctem (May 15, 2012)

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> Don't even go there. I don't want you to have a bad reputation for trolling and starting flame wars. If you have nothing nice to say, don't say anything at all.


And this is coming from a member who made troll threads and spam comments.


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## Toddlertoddy (Sep 17, 2011)

Carpenoctem said:


> And this is coming from a member who made troll threads and spam comments.


Who's obviously learning from mistakes and changing his ways. Don't you understand teenagers at all?


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## Carpenoctem (May 15, 2012)

Toddlertoddy said:


> Who's obviously learning from mistakes and changing his ways. Don't you understand teenagers at all?


No, actually I don't. When I was a teenager I spent my days hanging out with my friends and not sitting in front of the computer.

Everyone makes mistakes, and everyone has a different taste in music, and that's fine.

But continuously making hate comments about other people's tastes and then saying to other member that he should not post anything if he doesn't have anything nice to say is a prime example of hypocrisy isn't it?


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## BurningDesire (Jul 15, 2012)

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> Don't even go there. I don't want you to have a bad reputation for trolling and starting flame wars. If you have nothing nice to say, don't say anything at all.


Oh he need not worry, you only need to worry about that if the target of your invective is Mozart. Everybody else is fair game.


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## Carpenoctem (May 15, 2012)

BurningDesire said:


> Oh he need not worry, you only need to worry about that if the target of your invective is Mozart. Everybody else is fair game.


You really think this is about Mozart?

Wow.


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## BurningDesire (Jul 15, 2012)

Carpenoctem said:


> You really think this is about Mozart?
> 
> Wow.


Yeah, this forum proved that, tenfold already.

Wow.


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## Carpenoctem (May 15, 2012)

BurningDesire said:


> Yeah, this forum proved that, tenfold already.
> 
> Wow.


Damn, you still don't know why the members here didn't like your posts.

It doesn't matter if you like Mozart, or hate Mozart, the problem is the way you continuously made posts about it, only your opinion was right, and all the other people were wrong.

Now, somebody says 1 word against Ligeti and he should immediately get his act together and start posting original and nice posts.

Doing it once is not acceptable, but doing it over and over again against certain composer is ok?


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## BurningDesire (Jul 15, 2012)

Carpenoctem said:


> Damn, you still don't know why the members here didn't like your posts.
> 
> It doesn't matter if you like Mozart, or hate Mozart, the problem is the way you continuously made posts about it, only your opinion was right, and all the other people were wrong.
> 
> ...


So its wrong for me to act like my opinion is fact... but its fine for you guys? And I think it is acceptable to criticize composers and say negative things about them if that is how you really feel, but that goes for EVERY composer. Saying its fine for him to say a genuinely mean and ignorant thing about Ligeti, but then freaking out at anybody who dares call into question Mozart's genius, well thats a double standard, and thats a load of crap.

Wow.


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## Toddlertoddy (Sep 17, 2011)

Here we go again...


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## Ramako (Apr 28, 2012)

This is unbelievable.

The fact is that most things are acceptable to the people who do them. Someone insulted Ligeti and was kind of pounced on, but someone insulted Mozart and was pounced on a bit as well. Its the same. Everyone has reacted similarly to all groundless accusations against major names.

The biggest sacred cow on this forum is Bach anyway. And his supporters are the ones who tend to make random assertions about his supremacy as if they were fact, rather than Mozart fans who tend to say "he was one of the greatest composers ever" or "possibly the greatest musical genius who ever lived". But that is another war I have no intention of starting.


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## AmateurComposer (Sep 13, 2009)

jani said:


> 1.I meant the note choice, note duration's etc..
> 2. I am familiar with the CoA, but not with the other piece you mean't . Link?!?


1. Even so, you are still very geneous to the plagiarists. It is very easy to introduce minor changes to the notes and the durations without affecting the main melody.

2. Look at YouTube for *Jacques Offenbach - Orpheus in the Underworld Overture*. There are there a number of performances for this very popular piece.


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## graaf (Dec 12, 2009)

Toddlertoddy said:


> Who's obviously learning from mistakes and changing his ways. Don't you understand teenagers at all?


I actually do know he is a teenager, and I had him, among other teenagers, on ignore list for a while. So I decided to clear my ignore list to see if anything changed, only to see that it didn't much. So I decided to give him a taste of his own behaviour. But that is not the point - the point is: if you're a teenager who used to troll and spam one day - you don't get to teach other people manners the next day.


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## Carpenoctem (May 15, 2012)

graaf said:


> But that is not the point - the point is: if you're a teenager who used to troll and spam one day - you don't get to teach other people manners the next day.


Yes, I agree, that's actually what I also said, and BurningDesire got angry for no reason, but what can you do?

You can't change your personality.


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## TrazomGangflow (Sep 9, 2011)

Ramako said:


> This is unbelievable.
> 
> The fact is that most things are acceptable to the people who do them. Someone insulted Ligeti and was kind of pounced on, but someone insulted Mozart and was pounced on a bit as well. Its the same. Everyone has reacted similarly to all groundless accusations against major names.
> 
> The biggest sacred cow on this forum is Bach anyway. And his supporters are the ones who tend to make random assertions about his supremacy as if they were fact, rather than Mozart fans who tend to say "he was one of the greatest composers ever" or "possibly the greatest musical genius who ever lived". But that is another war I have no intention of starting.


I would say Wagner is another sacred cow on this forum. If anyone altered the "Thread for People Who Don't Like Mozart Thread" and replaced it with Bach or Wagner, the flaming wars would increase ten fold. (Don't get any ideas anyone)


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## neoshredder (Nov 7, 2011)

Couchie would probably be the only one in ful support for Wagner.


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## TrazomGangflow (Sep 9, 2011)

I'm not too sure. I think Couchie may be gaining followers. Every time I stare into the eyes of that green blob I feel myself submitting to Wagner a little more each time.


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## BurningDesire (Jul 15, 2012)

graaf said:


> I actually do know he is a teenager, and I had him, among other teenagers, on ignore list for a while. So I decided to clear my ignore list to see if anything changed, only to see that it didn't much. So I decided to give him a taste of his own behaviour. But that is not the point - the point is: if you're a teenager who used to troll and spam one day - you don't get to teach other people manners the next day.


And you don't get to criticize others for negative behavior, and then turn around and behave even less maturely. Is that what a mature, responsible, wise adult would do? Me thinks no.


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## Carpenoctem (May 15, 2012)

BurningDesire said:


> And you don't get to criticize others for negative behavior, and then turn around and behave even less maturely. Is that what a mature, responsible, wise adult would do? Me thinks no.


Why are yo so angry!?

Leave this kind of discussions and share the love and passion about the music you like with other people!


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## BurningDesire (Jul 15, 2012)

Carpenoctem said:


> Why are yo so angry!?
> 
> Leave this kind of discussions and share the love and passion about the music you like with other people!


I'm not angry. I'm just not one to suffer hypocrites.


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## Carpenoctem (May 15, 2012)

BurningDesire said:


> I'm not angry. I'm just not one to suffer hypocrites.


Haha, ok.

Keep thinking that your opinion is better than the else and that only you are correct.

Just be careful not to go to far, you don't won't to make another "I apologize thread" right?

Cheers.


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

I just don't take part in conversations like the above any more. Works fine for me.


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