# SS 17.05.14 - Vaughan Williams #2 "A London Symphony"



## realdealblues

A continuation of the Saturday Symphonies Tradition:

Welcome to another weekend of symphonic listening!

For your listening pleasure this weekend:

*Ralph Vaughan Williams (1872 - 1958)*

Symphony #2 "A London Symphony"

1. Lento - Allegro Risoluto
2. Lento
3. Scherzo (Nocturne)
4. Finale - Andante con moto - Maestoso alla marcia - Allegro - Lento - Epilogue

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Post what recording you are going to listen to giving details of Orchestra / Conductor / Chorus / Soloists etc - Enjoy!


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## realdealblues

Wow, week 45! We're almost 1/3 of the way through our list of Symphonies.

This week is Ralph Vaughan Williams #2 and I'll go with my old standard.

View attachment 42060


Sir Adrian Boult/London Philharmonic Orchestra


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## DrKilroy

Now, I have to take part in this.  Of course, I will play my good Handley set.










Best regards, Dr


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## Marschallin Blair

_San pareil_, mes amis.


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## ptr

Splendid, Sir Adrian is the yard stick others will be measures against!

I'll go for:







> New Cover









Hallé Orchestra u. Sir John Barbirolli (rec 1956; Dutton Labs / The Barbirolli Society CDSJB 1021)

Rob Barnett's excellent review of this disc on MuiscWeb makes me want to return to it. Not maybe run of the mill RVW, but something very italliastic, like so many thing Glorious John touched! 

/ptr


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## CyrilWashbrook

I haven't really listened to this one properly before, so I'll try to rectify that this Saturday. Like realdealblues, I'll take a listen to the ever-reliable Boult/LPO.


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## Marschallin Blair

ptr said:


> Splendid, Sir Adrian is the yard stick others will be measures against!
> 
> I'll go for:
> 
> View attachment 42061
> > New Cover
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hallé Orchestra u. Sir John Barbirolli (rec 1956; Dutton Labs / The Barbirolli Society CDSJB 1021)
> 
> Rob Barnett's excellent review of this disc on MuiscWeb makes me want to return to it. Not maybe run of the mill RVW, but something very italliastic, like so many thing Glorious John touched!
> 
> /ptr


I love his caressing touch: "Sir John in Love," indeed. Thumbs up.


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## Marschallin Blair

Did you Barbirolli fans know that this treasure chest is out?-- re-engineered. And for a pittance of $13.06 at Amazon?

I just ordered it last night.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00D56ACOK/ref=oh_details_o00_s00_i00?ie=UTF8&psc=1


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## ptr

Marschallin Blair said:


> Did you Barbirolli fans know that this treasure chest is out?-- re-engineered. And for a pittance of $13.06 at Amazon?
> 
> I just ordered it last night.
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00D56ACOK/ref=oh_details_o00_s00_i00?ie=UTF8&psc=1


Had'em on Vinyl since I was a Kid, not my first or even second choice in Sibelius, but very interesting anyway! 
Just pondering a large order of Barbirolli Society discs at the moment myself, my wallet is crying out in fear of being permanently drained! 

/ptr


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## Marschallin Blair

ptr said:


> Had'em on Vinyl since I was a Kid, not my first or even second choice in Sibelius, but very interesting anyway!
> Just pondering a large order of Barbirolli Society discs at the moment myself, my wallet is crying out in fear of being permanently drained!
> 
> /ptr


"_Beauty is pain_." Ha. Ha. Ha. Ha. Ha.


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## Mahlerian

Let me see what's on Spotify. I haven't heard this one in a few years.









Previn/London Symphony Orchestra (like last week, I suppose?)


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## Marschallin Blair

Mahlerian said:


> Let me see what's on Spotify. I haven't heard this one in a few years.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Previn/London Symphony Orchestra (like last week, I suppose?)


I'd wish RCA would re-engineer that set; or just turn it over to Warner and let them do it. There's lots of treasure in those readings, I just can't abide the sub-optimal engineering.


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## techniquest

This is one of my very favourite symphonies. Trying to avoid duplication with recordings already cited, I shall go with the following:
LSO / Norrington on Decca
Bournemouth SO / Bakels on Naxos


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## Cheyenne

To avoid duplication, I'll go with Haitink/LPO!


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## brotagonist

Vaughan-Williams has barely attracted my interest (I do have 2 albums, one being Symphony 5), so this is an opportunity to hear some more. I will give this one a try:

Norrington/LPO



DrKilroy said:


> Now, I have to take part in this.  Of course, I will play my good Handley set.


You posted a picture of the cover for Symphony 8, but it is Symphony 2 this week  (but you did say "set").


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## DrKilroy

brotagonist said:


> You posted a picture of the cover for Symphony 8, but it is Symphony 2 this week  (but you did say "set").


I own the whole set, and this CD contains both No.2 and No.8. This is a surprisingly good pairing, given that No. 8 was published about forty years after No. 2. These are also my favourite ones, together with No. 3, though I enjoy them all immensely, of course. 

Best regards, Dr


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## Guest

Again, I still haven't been strictly following this thing any more, but some Vaughan Williams sounds like a lovely change. Either the standard EMI Boult or the Chandos Hickox if I'm feeling up to the longer one.


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## techniquest

> This is one of my very favourite symphonies. Trying to avoid duplication with recordings already cited, I shall go with the following:
> LSO / Norrington on Decca
> Bournemouth SO / Bakels on Naxos


My mistake - it's the London Philharmonic Orchestra, not the LSO


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## Haydn man

It's Boult and the LPO for me this week
One of my favourites so I shall enjoy


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## Jeff W

Boult or Haitink? I'll probably listen to both!


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## senza sordino

I'll be playing this version
View attachment 42107


It will be nice to revisit this symphony. I listened a lot 10 years ago when I bought the CD, but only a couple of times since then.


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## AClockworkOrange

I'll be listening to Sir Mark Elder and the Halle.

Time allowing, I'll listen to Boult's second London recording too.


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## techniquest

Being born and brought up in London, this symphony has a special place in my heart. When I first heard the Bournemouth Symphony Orchestra / Kees Bakels recording on Naxos, I remember being impressed. Initially it was Westminster Chimes with the harp harmonics near the start, or the big fat way the orchestra explodes into the main body of the first movement (listen out for a genuine Cockney "'Ave a Banana" - it happens 4 times in this movement, the fourth time preceded by aggressive bashes on the bass drum & cymbal: Bill Bailey eat your heart out). The busy feel of this section in the first movement really does conjure up pictures of east-end markets. The second section opens with strings and harp with a much more relaxed and gentle feel - a quiet corner of the Thames, or a garden near St Martins in the Fields...? This is a lovely respite, but it is only a respite; the hustle & bustle of the busy music returns before a big, triumphant finish amid crackling jingling percussion.
The second (Lento) is the movement which is full of emotion: if you don't get this movement, then it's probably best to leave RVW alone and find music from another composer. Even in this revised version, the movement is possibly one of the composers finest. The string writing in the first section is sublime, and the overall orchestration masterful. The solo viola which heralds a change to the direction, and the subsequent woodwinds are dripping with feeling; even the distant sleigh bell adds to that something otherworldly before a gentle climax highlighted by a holding back gives us music that is so absolutely English. This climax returns, bigger this time (and I well-up...just a tad). This recording has just the right dynamic, just the right tempo and absolutely the right feel. Only Hickox in the unrevised recording on Chandos achieves this better. The solo viola comes in once again at the end of the movement and disappears around a misty corner.
The 3rd movement has a completely different feel. It's a scherzo and has a bouncing jollity about it, but it's not a crash-bang-wallop jollity as in Ketelby's "'Appy 'Ampstead", but almost as if you're watching things happening from across the road or the other side of the square (okay, I know this isn't meant to be 'program music', but it is very evocative). The very end of the movement is totally different with just the slightest references to the bouncing jollity of the rest, and it ends quietly in the minor.
The finale has a grand opening - a huge vista which becomes a big, hefty march which is slow enough to be funereal, but this is nowhere near Mahler, rather this is the kind of march which Walton would develop a little later in the 20th century. Bakels takes it particularly slow, even the hushed string interludes which are often played faster than the main theme. After this, the music builds to a busy feel similar to the 1st movement with snare drum, cymbals and bass drum adding colour until this section dies to a repeat of the march. This is where the movement - indeed the whole symphony - reaches it's huge climax crowned by a whopping hit of the tam-tam (yes, it's recorded well here). When this huge orchestral sound dies away, the mood changes, the Westminster chimes are heard again this time on proper notes rather than harmonics, and the lower strings come in quietly over twirling flutes/clarinets with a variety of chord changes (it reminds of the opening section to the music from 'Alien'). Some of the main themes from the symphony return briefly including the opening chords, before it all ends under a rising violin solo. In a word: magnificent.


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## techniquest

The Norrington / LPO recording on Decca has a very different feel to the Bakels. The initial main theme in the 1st movement plods a little before we get to the hustle & bustle street-market part but there's no doubt that the recorded sound is very good indeed, and the percussion before the last 'ave a banana' is scary! However when the music dies down, again it feels a bit plodding and it also lacks something; as if it really is just a link to the next bit. That 'next bit' is the string / harp /woodwind part and it is sublime.
The 2nd movement will always be the big tester for me. If this fails, then the symphony fails - sorry, but that's how it is. Norringtons' LPO sounds beautiful even if the 'pp's are a little too 'mp' for my liking. Here, Norrington takes a matter-of-fact approach and certainly doesn't wear his heart on his sleeve. In fact this interpretation does it's best to quell any emotion inherent in RVW's score and even speeds up a little in the big climax. However the cor anglais part just after the climax sounds great - it sounds lost, and the quiet stand-cymbal 'roll' in the background is well recorded: it adds to this momentary detached feeling.
The 3rd movement is again well recorded (it seems this movement contains many tiny examples of RVW trade-marks which were to appear more in his later symphonies; if you know RVW you'll know what I mean).
The brass sound much more to the fore in the opening of the final movement than they've been in the previous movements. The march is taken in a precise manner with nicely recorded quiet cymbals, but as it develops it sounds as though it slows down just a tiny bit. However it certainly speeds up again for the central 'busy' section with the percussion weighted just right. The reprise of the march and the build-up to the big climax is _huge_ and very satisfying, and the twirly flutes / chord-changing part is mysterious but a little too forward and perhaps too fast.
To conclude, I prefer the Bakels recording of the revised London Symphony, but overall I like the Hickox recording of the original version best of all.


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## Richannes Wrahms

I'll go with Sir Adrian Boult and the London Philharmonic Orchestra. Haven't listened to it in a while, ...and got it for the introduction... I'll follow it with the score and perhaps comment if I find something particularly interesting in there.


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## BRHiler

techniquest said:


> The 2nd movement will always be the big tester for me. If this fails, then the symphony fails - sorry, but that's how it is. Norringtons' LPO sounds beautiful even if the 'pp's are a little too 'mp' for my liking. Here, Norrington takes a matter-of-fact approach and certainly doesn't wear his heart on his sleeve. In fact this interpretation does it's best to quell any emotion inherent in RVW's score and even speeds up a little in the big climax. However the cor anglais part just after the climax sounds great - it sounds lost, and the quiet stand-cymbal 'roll' in the background is well recorded: it adds to this momentary detached feeling.


Which is why I don't listen to Norrington beyond his specialty area.

As for me, I'm going to give the Slatkin recording a go, and then to the Hickox


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## Mika

From Spotify:


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## Richannes Wrahms

Well, this is more of a curiosity... and my opinion has change little, I like the Ravelian 'prologue' and Epilogue more than what's in the middle


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## Vaneyes

My apologies to all, I must abstain, since I do not like the work. Hopefully, I can be back next week with full enthusiasm. Cheers to all! I know, if you can't say something nice, don't say anything.


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## samurai

I listened to the Sir Adrian Boult/LPO rendition. I thought techniquest's posts describing this symphony were spot on, and he used some of the same words--such as "hustle and bustle"-- which I had intended to employ in my describing this marvelous work and some of the emotions and images it evokes for the listener of London, even if--as myself--one has never been there.


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## brotagonist

It was rather late last night, when I realized that, in my enthusiasm for my new Liszt Années de Pèlerinage recording, I had forgotten about the SS (  ) I had chosen the Norrington/LPO recording.

It sounded like what I know of Vaughan Williams, which is why his music never held great appeal for me. I immediately noticed some hint of what I took to be Debussyisms; I later read that he had studied under Ravel, so my perceptions were not so far off. However, the "hustle and bustle" sounds, the frequent forays into folk melodies, handled in a decidedly populist manner reminiscent of the early American composers and, in particular, the triumphant British Empire fanfare and marching sounds that appear to pervade the work (and those of many British composers of the era), tend to rapidly and certainly extinguish most of the positives I experience from listening. At the end, I concluded that I was relatively indifferent to the work, neither positive nor negative, just neutral.

This morning, I thought I'd listen to another version. Without knowing anything of the history of the symphony, I chanced upon this one, which I noticed was about 15 minutes longer than the one from last night. I was immediately impressed to note that the negative qualities of the other version I had previously described were significantly downplayed. This version is more moody, more Mahlerian (  ), less patriotic and triumphant, and more to my liking. It turns out to be the original version of 1913, Hickox conducting the LSO.


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## brotagonist

^ No edits 

[I rarely manage to write even the simplest post without having to correct or revise.]


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## Woodduck

Marschallin Blair said:


> View attachment 42067
> View attachment 42068
> 
> 
> Did you Barbirolli fans know that this treasure chest is out?-- re-engineered. And for a pittance of $13.06 at Amazon?
> 
> I just ordered it last night.
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00D56ACOK/ref=oh_details_o00_s00_i00?ie=UTF8&psc=1


Thanks for the alert! I've had the 1st and 5th together on a CD for years and love them. Barbirolli is one of my conducting heroes, one of those whose humanity radiates from every bar of whatever he plays. I'm sure this will be something to set beside his Elgar and Vaughan Williams, and a nice contrast to to the dark majesty of Berglund, the invigorating iciness of Maazel, and the sensuous witchery of Karajan (to name some others whose Sibelius I love).


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## GreenMamba

Boult. This isn't my favorite symphony from Rayf, but I like it. I think he does the countryside better than the city.


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## Mal

Handley Royal Liverpool Philharmonic Orchestra just won BBC Building a Library; Boult and Barbirolli were given honourable mentions, but the reviewer thought Handley combined the best qualities of both in modern, demonstration quality sound. (Careful on version control, an earlier Handley with one of the London orchestras was not recommended...) 

I have the full set of RVW symphonies with Handley RLPO, so I was pleased to see my current library version winning BAL for once  This is a treasured set for me, and I have never felt the need to go out seeking others. (And from the clips and comments on BAL, I still don't feel the need!) 

Haitink came in a close second. Previn came in for a bit of a pasting. The original version of 1913, Hickox LSO was also highly praised, *but* only as a supplement. As the reviewer pointed out, if you only want one for your library it should be the official version that was backed by RVW. (RVW didn't allow the original to be played in his lifetime, his widow gave permission.)

P.S. BAL recommended getting it in the "Icon Vernon Handley" box from Warner. The full set from CFP is only available at very silly prices second hand...


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