# Would you give up Romance like Ravel for Greatness in music?



## regenmusic (Oct 23, 2014)

It's said that Ravel might have died a virgin. That's probably untrue, but it's clear he didn't have a lot or any romantic relationships. Would you do that if you were to develop your musical ability to a level near his?


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## tdc (Jan 17, 2011)

There are other composers who had little or no romance in their lives, Bruckner comes to mind. Brahms had some flings, but always seemed to want to cut ties before things got too far. Beethoven didn't get too far with romantic relationships to my knowledge, Satie had only one known relationship etc.

I think it depends on the situation. There have been enough great composers that have had relationships, so I would never consciously think to myself that I would take that completely out of my life in order to achieve excellence in music. But in certain times and places if the inspiration is rolling in solitude, one could start to become protective of that, and may feel they don't have the time for any diversions. Some people are so devoted to their craft that they see perhaps they would just make a romantic partner miserable, or it would be difficult to find someone willing to make a lot of sacrifices like that. So I can see how a situation like that could come about.


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## Red Terror (Dec 10, 2018)

Robert Craft alleges that Stravinsky “slept” with Ravel, but I think otherwise.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

regenmusic said:


> Would you do that if you were to develop your musical ability to a level near his?


What is interesting about your posts is that this sentence suggests a link between his musical ability and his dying a virgin.


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## SiegendesLicht (Mar 4, 2012)

If some kind of a god or devil were to bestow me with musical talent in exchange for all love and sexuality in my lfe, then sure! Anybody can do romance, only the chosen few can really "do" music. Unfortunately, in real life it does not work like that.


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

Mandryka said:


> What is *interesting* about your posts is that this sentence suggests a link between his musical ability and his dying a virgin.


I would have said bizarre, but otherwise, +1. What is the link? Not enough time in the day to compose _and_ have sex?


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## DeepR (Apr 13, 2012)

No, not at this point in life. Ask me again in 30 years.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

tdc said:


> But in certain times and places if the inspiration is rolling in solitude, one could start to become protective of that, and may feel they don't have the time for any diversions. Some people are so devoted to their craft that they see perhaps they would just make a romantic partner miserable, or it would be difficult to find someone willing to make a lot of sacrifices like that.


In my (all too rare) experience, love enhances creativity. Marriage and family is another matter. It seemed to work well for Bach, who got a workshop full of elves.


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## MarkW (Feb 16, 2015)

An old music professor whose generation was such that he might have "known," told me once that "Ravel preferred boys" (in the sense that he probably meant "men") -- but I have no way of checking on the veracity of that statement, and to this day and age it doesn't much matter.  But I've always been impressed by Beethoven's and Brahms' ability to turn away from relationships in the final analysis to devote themselves to their art (to whataver extent each felt that it might be a distraction).


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## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

MarkW said:


> An old music professor whose generation was such that he might have "known," told me once that "Ravel preferred boys" (in the sense that he probably meant "men") -- but I have no way of checking on the veracity of that statement, and to this day and age it doesn't much matter.


I just read a recent biography of Ravel - I can't think of the title - which spent much of the book detailing his position that Ravel had many dalliances with those of his gender. I came from the book knowing little about Ravel's music, which I'm more interested in. I'm not too concerned with what he did in his off hours.


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## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

regenmusic said:


> It's said that Ravel might have died a virgin. That's probably untrue, but it's clear he didn't have a lot or any romantic relationships. Would you do that if you were to develop your musical ability to a level near his?


I can't imagine my life without my wife. I wouldn't trade that relationship for any greater musical ability. I'd rather find fulfillment with her in this life than hope for a name that outlasts me which, because of death, I will be unaware of anyway.


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## Larkenfield (Jun 5, 2017)

Whatever lifestyle he had, it does not appear to be one based on sacrifice or deliberate celibacy. He wasn’t sacrificing romance or sex to develop himself as a composer. It seems more likely that his sexual drive was naturally sublimated into his musical accomplishments, and that’s an entirely different matter.


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## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

I've always read and assumed he was homosexual, and in the time and place he lived, his family's background, he, like many others, pushed it down and lived an asexual life. Couldn't care less. Did it affect his composing? Who knows, who cares? One question lingers: are the number of great composers who were gay in higher proportion that the general population?


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## regenmusic (Oct 23, 2014)

mbhaub said:


> I've always read and assumed he was homosexual, and in the time and place he lived, his family's background, he, like many others, pushed it down and lived an asexual life. Couldn't care less. Did it affect his composing? Who knows, who cares? One question lingers: are the number of great composers who were gay in higher proportion that the general population?


It's your assumption he was gay and your assumption that the greatest composers were gay. I don't find more music that I like in most of the gay composers, personally. Some things I like, but much of it (Barber, Thomson, Britten, Feldman) I don't like.


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## tdc (Jan 17, 2011)

There were also people in Ravel's circle who suggested he visited brothels and was friendly with the ladies there. His student Manuel Rosenthal once commented that Ravel always seemed happiest when he was surrounded by women, some suggested he had a crush on Hélène Jourdan-Morhange at one time. As far as I know there is not really any conclusive evidence on his sexuality.


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## AeolianStrains (Apr 4, 2018)

regenmusic said:


> It's your assumption he was gay and your assumption that the greatest composers were gay. I don't find more music that I like in most of the gay composers, personally. Some things I like, but much of it (Barber, Thomson, Britten, Feldman) I don't like.


But Tchaikovsky! I'd wager that the ratio of straight-to-gay composers is similar to many other fields and not abnormal at all.


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## regenmusic (Oct 23, 2014)

What is it no longer politically correct to suggest a single man interested in the arts is heterosexual? :lol:


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## Larkenfield (Jun 5, 2017)

There have been some notable “gay” composers, such as Joseph Haydn and Dvorak, who could be quite lighthearted and carefree on occasion. 
:tiphat:


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## Red Terror (Dec 10, 2018)

regenmusic said:


> What is it no longer politically correct to suggest a single man interested in the arts is heterosexual? :lol:


In today's cultural climate if you're an employed heterosexual male with healthy self-esteem, you are accused of being part of the "problem" due to your "toxic masculity".


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

I remember reading about Chopin's view on this subject:

"Schumann had written a critical article in his music magazine about Chopin's "La ci Darem variations". In it he had compared a passage in the third variation to the scene in Mozart's Don Giovanni where Giovanni kisses Zelina on the D flat ("Des Dur" in 
German). In Polish "Des dur" resembles "des durka" a café in Warsaw which was a meeting point of artisits and intellectuals. It translates as "The little hole". This immediately became a private joke between the lovers: Chopin would write to Potocka and say " I long to kiss your des durka very, very hard."

Here is his written instruction to her on the use of the pedal:

"Treat it carefully, for it is not easy to win its intimacy and love. Like a society lady anxious about her reputation, it won't yield just like that. But when it does, yield, it can perform miracles, like an experienced mistress. PS. I would like to plonk something down your little hole in D flat major again. Do not refuse me. F.C."

Chopin had firm ideas about the relationship between sex and creativity:

Inspiration and ideas only come to me when I have not had a woman for a long time. When I have emptied my fluid into a woman so much I am pumped dry, inspiration deserts me and no new musical ideas come into my head. Think how strange and beautiful it is, that the force used to fertilise a woman, creating new life in her, is the same force that creates a work of art. It is the same life-giving fluid, yet man wastes it on one single moment of pleasure. The same is true of science. Those who make great discoveries must stay away from women. The formula is simple enough: A man must renounce women, then the energy accumulating in his system will go - not from his cock and balls into a woman - but into his brain in the form of inspiration where it might give birth to a work of art. Think of it, the sexual desire that drives men into women's arms can be transformed into inspiration. But only for those who have talent. A fool who lives without women will go mad with frustration. For the genius, unrequited love and unfulfilled passion, sharpened by the unattainable image of their beloved, is an endless source of inspiration".

How much Chopin and Delphina were at it, can be gathered from this letter written in 1833 (Phindela is an anagram of Delphina):

"Oh my sweetest Phindela, think of how much of that precious fluid I have wasted on you ramming away at you to no good purpose. I have not given you a baby and think how many musical ideas have been squandered inside you. Ballads, Polonaises, perhaps even an entire concerto have been lost forever up your D flat major, I cannot tell you how many. I have been so deeply immersed in my love for you I have hardly created anything, everything creative went straight from my cock into your "des durka". Works that could have seen the light of day are forever drowned in your D flat major. You are now carrying so much of my music in your womb that you are pregnant with my compositions. The saints were right when they said that women were the gates of hell. No, no, I take that back. You are the gates of heaven. For you I will give up fame, work, everything.

[he then writes her a little poem]

*** you is my favourite occupation
Bed beats inspiration
I long for your lovely ****
So says your faithful Fritz

[it probably reads better in French]
[…] Oh Phindela, my own little Phindela, how I long to be with you. I am trembling and shivering as if ants were crawling all over me from my brain down to my cock. When the coach will at long last bring you back I'll cling so hard that for a whole week you won't be able to get me out of your des durka. Bother all inspiration, ideas and works of art. Let my works vanish up that black hole forever.[…] I kiss you all over your dear little body and inside.

Your faithful Frycek, your most talented pupil who has mastered the art of love ."


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Sounds like Chopin was a fan of protecting his precious bodily fluids, like Gen. Jack D. Ripper in Dr Strangelove.


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## Open Book (Aug 14, 2018)

tdc said:


> There were also people in Ravel's circle who suggested he visited brothels and was friendly with the ladies there. His student Manuel Rosenthal once commented that Ravel always seemed happiest when he was surrounded by women, some suggested he had a crush on Hélène Jourdan-Morhange at one time. As far as I know there is not really any conclusive evidence on his sexuality.


"He frequented brothels" - I've heard that excuse before, for Brahms.


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

As a currently single 35 year old man that loves music dearly, I say yes.


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## Larkenfield (Jun 5, 2017)

> Ravel is not known to have had any intimate relationships at all, and he allegedly remarked once that, due to his perfectionism and his devotion to his work, he could never have a lasting intimate relationship with anyone, save for his own music. "We are not made for marriage, we artists. We are seldom normal, and our life still less so," he wrote to Hélène Casella. His closest personal attachment was with his mother, with whom he lived until she died in 1917.
> ---
> The concept of "sublimation" has figured significantly in the critical discourse on Maurice Ravel and his music. In fact, biographers rationalize Ravel's apparent lack of a sex life by suggesting that his libido was sublimated into the production of his works. [unquote] -Angelica Frey


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## Gordontrek (Jun 22, 2012)

I remember Rocky's trainer in the film _Rocky_ warning him that "women weaken legs!" and essentially ordering him to stay away from dating while training. The wisdom in that is well-known by athletes, of course; sexual activity convinces your brain and endocrine system that it no longer needs to help you bulk up your body because you've already attracted a mate, and the result is, quite literally, weakened legs. I wonder to what extent the mind, and consequently the creative instinct, are also affected by this. It might explain how so many brilliant composers never had a blossoming romance in their lives, at least to our knowledge. 
But to answer the OP's question, I really don't believe in trade-offs like that. I love music deeply, but I value family and relationships more deeply. If that somehow makes me more average of a musician than I might otherwise be, I'm fine with that. Small price to pay if I'm fulfilled by it.


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## Open Book (Aug 14, 2018)

mbhaub said:


> I've always read and assumed he was homosexual, and in the time and place he lived, his family's background, he, like many others, pushed it down and lived an asexual life. Couldn't care less. Did it affect his composing? Who knows, who cares? One question lingers: are the number of great composers who were gay in higher proportion that the general population?


I assume artists of all types are more likely to be gay than the general population.


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## AeolianStrains (Apr 4, 2018)

Gordontrek said:


> I remember Rocky's trainer in the film _Rocky_ warning him that "women weaken legs!" and essentially ordering him to stay away from dating while training. The wisdom in that is well-known by athletes, of course; sexual activity convinces your brain and endocrine system that it no longer needs to help you bulk up your body because you've already attracted a mate, and the result is, quite literally, weakened legs. I wonder to what extent the mind, and consequently the creative instinct, are also affected by this. It might explain how so many brilliant composers never had a blossoming romance in their lives, at least to our knowledge.
> But to answer the OP's question, I really don't believe in trade-offs like that. I love music deeply, but I value family and relationships more deeply. If that somehow makes me more average of a musician than I might otherwise be, I'm fine with that. Small price to pay if I'm fulfilled by it.


https://www.cnn.com/2012/08/10/health/sex-athletes/index.html


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## Larkenfield (Jun 5, 2017)

...............


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

Theres at least some circumstantial evidence suggesting that Ravel was homosexual or bisexual. There was a gay subculture in Paris during the period, others involved where Wanda Landowska and Francis Poulenc.

In any case, I can’t imagine that someone who composed Daphnis et Chloe didn’t know about sex. It’s one of the most erotically charged pieces in the canon, that massive climax is pure orgasm in sound.


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## Schoenberg (Oct 15, 2018)

If I were to refuse such an offer I would personally feel guilty to both myself and the rest of the world.


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## KRoad (Jun 1, 2012)

I may be wrong on this, but I believe that part of the brain responsible for music appreciation and musical ability and talent is in close proximity to that part of the brain which generates sexual drive and sexual creativity.

What _Romance_ is, is rather subjective, however sex of the hot, sweaty, hip-grinding, bed breaking variety is somewhat less ambiguous. As a musician myself, I have frequently found, as a male, fellow female musicians to be very partial to a good performance, often with a taste for the delectably bizarre - much to my delight. The virtuoso skills demonstrated _in concert_ being something worthy of the highest admiration.

Ergo, as sex is generally perceived as an important component of romance, I do not see musical greatness and romance as being incompatible. Indeed they can work in most pleasant harmony with one another.


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## David Phillips (Jun 26, 2017)

As the critic, Cyril Connolly said, "There is no more sombre enemy of good art than the pram in the hall."


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

regenmusic said:


> What is it no longer politically correct to suggest a single man interested in the arts is heterosexual? :lol:


Why political correctness? More likely it's simple probability, homosexuality being more common than asexuality.



Red Terror said:


> In today's cultural climate if you're an employed heterosexual male with healthy self-esteem, you are accused of being part of the "problem" due to your "toxic masculity".


Yes, the other oppressed majority, along with white people: heterosexuals.


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