# Is opera in English ever understandable?



## adriesba (Dec 30, 2019)

I don't think different language has ever been a problem for me appreciating opera, though people who don't like opera seem to mention it often.

But I'm starting to think that having an opera translated into one's own language helps the singers more than anyone. I can never understand more than maybe 70% of the words if it's in English.

True, some singers have better pronunciation than others, but is opera in English ever fully understandable?


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

Not to me it isn't.
I always thought the German language was uncomfortable for me but I find the English language even worse in most cases.

Actually, it's that "perfect pronunciation" that ruins the opera. Too many singers accentuate every single word, which creates an artificial sound for me. Examples that come to mind are: _Billy Budd, Vanessa_, some Britten operas.
An example of operas which are able to make the language sound natural are those written by Menotti like _The Consul_, etc.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

It really depends on the opera and particular recording for me. I have a lot of opera in English and some are clearer than others. Regardless, if it is a video in English, I still want English subtitles.


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## MAS (Apr 15, 2015)

This one is the best, most intelligibly sung one I know. The bar, though, is set low otherwise.


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## Revitalized Classics (Oct 31, 2018)

adriesba said:


> I don't think different language has ever been a problem for me appreciating opera, though people who don't like opera seem to mention it often.
> 
> But I'm starting to think that having an opera translated into one's own language helps the singers more than anyone. I can never understand more than maybe 70% of the words if it's in English.
> 
> True, some singers have better pronunciation than others, but is opera in English ever fully understandable?


The trouble is that in setting English words to Italian music (for instance), the 70% of words that are intelligible still sound like something a posh Yoda would say...






For me, it kind of undermines attempts to update the setting to the 1950s while the soprano is singing in translation "Oh console my shame". With the Italian I perhaps only have a generalized idea of what is going on but that might be preferable to constantly being reminded that I'm listening to antiquated language


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## MAS (Apr 15, 2015)

Revitalized Classics said:


> The trouble is that in setting English words to Italian music (for instance), the 70% of words that are intelligible still sound like something a posh Yoda would say...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That's the problem I have with ancient operas set in modern times, whatever the language. But opera in translation, especially in English, is always awkward, because the rhythm of the language is so different. An opera set to the Italian language already has an advantage in that the language itself is so singable, while English is not.

However, I always wonder why American Musicals, like Rodgers and Hammerstein's for instance, manages to make it work so much better than English operatic composers - I should say the composers of English-language operas.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Yes, with subtitles or supratitles LOL. One thing that is great about Streisand, Dionne , Ella and Sarah V is that you can always understand what they sing. Even a lot of pop music's lyrics are gobblety **** to me. I could understand Jessye Norman singing English but she was exceptional even in German.


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## annaw (May 4, 2019)

Understanding sung English in opera is one thing but another problem is that when I listen to an opera I'm very familiar with in its original language, my brain somehow tries to continue hearing the original language even if it's in English. So, for example I just put on the Forging song from Goodall's _Siegfried_, I got very confused - for a moment I was listening to some very weird German :lol:.


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## adriesba (Dec 30, 2019)

annaw said:


> Understanding sung English in opera is one thing but another problem is that when I listen to an opera I'm very familiar with in its original language, my brain somehow tries to continue hearing the original language even if it's in English. So, for example I just put on the Forging song from Goodall's _Siegfried_, I got very confused - for a moment I was listening to some very weird German :lol:.


I can relate. Hearing something familiar in translation just sounds wrong to me. It probably adds to my misunderstanding of the words. Here's an example I found just last night:






I can barely understand maybe two sentences and a few stray words. The sound of the German is definitely stuck in my head!


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

That's why I always hope that the hall breaks Poulenc's request of using the language of the country _Dialogues des Carmelites_ is being performed in. I really require the French language it was written in.


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## zxxyxxz (Apr 14, 2020)

I don't mind translations but for me they are singer dependant; bad or unclear diction means I might as well be listening to the original language with better singers as I'm not going to be able to follow the plot.

However I don't think english is ever a great fit in translation, I don't find (and I say this as a brit) our accent to be melodic. I find english works best in works designed for it.


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

Revitalized Classics said:


> The trouble is that in setting English words to Italian music (for instance), the 70% of words that are intelligible still sound like something a posh Yoda would say...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The original Italian of the Verdi operas is antiquated too and so this English translation mirrors the experience of an Italian millenial going to see the opera today. However, since they are using an English translation that they have a certain amount of control over and they updated the opera, they could have made the language reflect the period. When I translated Cosi fan tutte for an updated production I was in, we made the text spikey and modern (especially in the recits where we could take more liberties with the rhythms - recitativo secco in translation is always done with some changes to the note values, even if only a few.

N.


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

annaw said:


> Understanding sung English in opera is one thing but another problem is that when I listen to an opera I'm very familiar with in its original language, my brain somehow tries to continue hearing the original language even if it's in English. So, for example I just put on the Forging song from Goodall's _Siegfried_, I got very confused - for a moment I was listening to some very weird German :lol:.


Try Ingmar Bergman's Magic Flute... in Swedish! (Now that IS weird German. The first time I heard it I didn't know what language it was going to be in.)

N.


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## wkasimer (Jun 5, 2017)

adriesba said:


> True, some singers have better pronunciation than others, but is opera in English ever fully understandable?


Yes - as you note, when the singers take care about making themselves understood, and the conductor and director make it a priority. I've attended several operas in English - most memorably Xerxes with Lorraine Hunt in Boston - where I could understand every single word from the entire cast.


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## Barelytenor (Nov 19, 2011)

Absolutely! Try Sir Douglas Moore's The Ballad of Baby Doe with Beverly Sills as Baby Doe, Frances Bible as Augusta, and Walter Cassel as Horace Tabor, New York City Opera Orchestra and Chorus. Completely intelligible from beginning to end, and a great story and wonderful tunes, deserves a wider audience than I think it has gotten. I was fortunate enough to sing a small role in it with the Dallas Opera and Ruth Ann Welting singing Baby Doe, a soprano who passed far too early in her life.

It helps, of course, that the opera libretto was written in English. Another one that comes to mind is Moby Dick by Jake Heggie, another opera I saw performed in Dallas.

Kind regards, :tiphat:

George


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## MAS (Apr 15, 2015)

Barelytenor said:


> Absolutely! Try Sir Douglas Moore's The Ballad of Baby Doe with Beverly Sills as Baby Doe, Frances Bible as Augusta, and Walter Cassel as Horace Tabor, New York City Opera Orchestra and Chorus. Completely intelligible from beginning to end, and a great story and wonderful tunes, deserves a wider audience than I think it has gotten. I was fortunate enough to sing a small role in it with the Dallas Opera and Ruth Ann Welting singing Baby Doe, a soprano who passed far too early in her life.
> 
> It helps, of course, that the opera libretto was written in English. Another one that comes to mind is Moby Dick by Jake Heggie, another opera I saw performed in Dallas.
> 
> ...


I didn't know Miss Welting's middle name was Ann, or that she had passed away. So sorry to hear that. I heard her at the San Francisco Opera when she was married to Edo de Waart, I think as Zerbinetta, and in *Cendrillon*, as the Fairy Godmother plus a role in *Hänsel und Gretl*, if I remember correctly, in the dream sequence.


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## Barelytenor (Nov 19, 2011)

Blame a faulty memory and knowing too many singers! I confused her name with Ruth Ann Swenson. She was Ruth Welting, sister of Patricia Welting, also a singer (lyric soprano). Not Ruth Ann. (She was actually Ruth Lynn Welting.)

But yes she was a wonderful high soprano with a lithe, magical presence on stage.

Lots of sopranos have been married to Edo de Waart.

https://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/obituary-ruth-welting-1134202.html

This second link is an interview with the indefatigable Bruce Duffie, who apparently interviewed every singer in the world (and a lot of other musicians), a vast and fascinating treasure trove. I should start a thread ... if time were unlimited. Take a look, and Bookmark it for those quaranta giorni!

http://www.bruceduffie.com/welting.html

Kind regards, :tiphat:

George


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## CC301233 (Jul 14, 2020)

Don't forget, there's "Guilbert & Sullivan..." which actually *is* English Opera (eg. HMS Pinnafore, Pirates of Penzance). I know many dismiss these as "not true Opera," but it is in English and understandable....


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## adriesba (Dec 30, 2019)

CC301233 said:


> Don't forget, there's "Guilbert & Sullivan..." which actually *is* English Opera (eg. HMS Pinnafore, Pirates of Penzance). I know many dismiss these as "not true Opera," but it is in English and understandable....


Actually I do sometimes have a little trouble understanding those but not too bad. I think it's mainly because of them having words and phrases I've not heard before, like "all aver", and British pronunciations that I'm not familiar with. But yes, they are fairly easy to understand.


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## MAS (Apr 15, 2015)

adriesba said:


> Actually I do sometimes have a little trouble understanding those but not too bad. I think it's mainly because of them having words and phrases I've not heard before, like "all aver", and British pronunciations that I'm not familiar with. But yes, they are fairly easy to understand.


I think there were several G&S singers who went on to sing at the English National Opera, taking their outstanding diction with them, most of them going on to record roles in the series of operas in English for the Peter Moore's Foundation. One of them was Valerie Masterson, who I had the pleasure of seeing at the San Francisco Opera in *La Traviats*, *Julius Caesar*, in English, in the borrowed ENO production, and in Händel's *Orlando*.


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## MAS (Apr 15, 2015)

Barelytenor said:


> Blame a faulty memory and knowing too many singers! I confused her name with Ruth Ann Swenson. She was Ruth Welting, sister of Patricia Welting, also a singer (lyric soprano). Not Ruth Ann. (She was actually Ruth Lynn Welting.)
> 
> But yes she was a wonderful high soprano with a lithe, magical presence on stage.
> 
> ...


Thank you. It is quite an interesting interview, with good questions that Welting answers intelligently.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

MAS said:


> I think there were several G&S singers who went on to sing at the English National Opera, taking their outstanding diction with them, most of them going on to record roles in the series of operas in English for the Peter Moore's Foundation. One of them was Valerie Masterson, who I had the pleasure of seeing at the San Francisco Opera in *La Traviats*, *Julius Caesar*, in English, in the borrowed ENO production, and in Händel's *Orlando*.


I have so many fond memories of Valerie Masterson, who was one of English National Opera's star sopranos when that company was still a force to be reckoned with. She also sang at Covent Garden and was very popular in France, where she sang many French roles. She was the full package - a beautiful woman, a natural actress and a lovely voice.


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## pianozach (May 21, 2018)

Amusing.

I clicked on the thread assuming it was about opera WRITTEN in English, NOT opera TRANSLATED into English.

So, anyway, yeah, *Gilbert & Sullivan*. Depending on the production/recording/venue it can be unintelligible or very understandable. I have one of the Doyle Carte recordings on LP where the natural reverb is so prominent that it's difficult to understand the lyrics.

It has to be mentioned, though, that WS Gilbert took "liberties" with the language, rhyming words that wouldn't necessarily be pronounced as rhymes, and making up words as well.

And even though the works are only a little over a hundred years old, some of the language is already a bit antiquated, and he uses words that have now fallen into disuse, as well as some words and phrases that are distinctly "British" and not well known in "the Colonies".


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## gvn (Dec 14, 2019)

I've often wished that the old D'Oyly Carte G & S Company had made English-language recordings of Mozart, Verdi, etc. THEN I'd have English-language opera recordings I could understand. (Though the idea of Henry Lytton or John Reed attempting to sing "O star of eve" etc. rather boggles the imagination....)

It's a pity that most of the English-language opera recordings were made by Chandos, because Chandos favors more resonant, bathroom-style acoustics than most record companies, making the words even more unintelligible than ever. (Ironically, old randomly-miked live performances often have clearer words than the beautifully recorded modern Chandos ones.)

But I think the ultimate judgment on opera translated into English was pronounced by John B. Steane in _Gramophone_ magazine many years ago. He said that there are only two problems with opera in English: half the time you _can't_ understand the words, and the other half of the time you _can_.


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## VitellioScarpia (Aug 27, 2017)

Régine Crespin sang The Old Prioress in the _Dialogues of the Carmelites_ in 1977 and in 1987 in English and she had the clearest diction of the all native English speaker cast (Norman, Ewing, Quivar, Norden)... So, it is possible to sing English well even for non-natives as some English native speakers can sing in Italian quite credibly (Milnes, MacNeil, Morris, Keenlyside, etc.).


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## pianozach (May 21, 2018)

gvn said:


> I've often wished that the old D'Oyly Carte G & S Company had made English-language recordings of Mozart, Verdi, etc. THEN I'd have English-language opera recordings I could understand. (Though the idea of Henry Lytton or John Reed attempting to sing "O star of eve" etc. rather boggles the imagination....)
> 
> It's a pity that most of the English-language opera recordings were made by Chandos, because Chandos favors more resonant, bathroom-style acoustics than most record companies, making the words even more unintelligible than ever. (Ironically, old randomly-miked live performances often have clearer words than the beautifully recorded modern Chandos ones.)
> 
> But I think the ultimate judgment on opera translated into English was pronounced by John B. Steane in _Gramophone_ magazine many years ago. He said that there are only two problems with opera in English: half the time you _can't_ understand the words, and the other half of the time you _can_.


Yeah, I understand the wish.

However, English is a coarse language that often doesn't translate well, especially grammar-wise. We don't have masculine/feminine words, and our adjectives are in the wrong place.

Literal translations to English often don't "fit" the music correctly, so people fudge the translations.


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