# Thomas Adès



## JackRance (Sep 13, 2021)

What do you think about him? Please, write detailed answers if you can...


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

Two of the more recent threads:
What do you think of Thomas Ades as a composer?
Anyone hear of Thomas Ades (contemporary composer)?


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## JackRance (Sep 13, 2021)

Thank you, I didn't think to search in past threads...


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## JackRance (Sep 13, 2021)

Can someone tell me if he follows a particular musical current? I know he was student of Kurtàg, but his music seems to be different...


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## MarkW (Feb 16, 2015)

Heard of him but never heard how his name is pronounced (with the accent mark). How does it go?


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

JackRance said:


> Can someone tell me if he follows a particular musical current? I know he was student of Kurtàg, but his music seems to be different...


Apart from his early masterpieces like Five Eliot Landscapes op 1, Thomas Ades is a postmodernist. A bit of Britten and a bit of Reich and a bit Birtwistle and a bit of whatever else he can find from the history of music all mashed up. Listening to his music results in a continuous feeling of simultaneous new and déjà vu oxymoron style.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

MarkW said:


> Heard of him but never heard how his name is pronounced (with the accent mark). How does it go?


Rhymes with fez.


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## MarkW (Feb 16, 2015)

Mandryka said:


> Add' ezz, rhymes with oyez and fez.


thanks! .


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## Simon Moon (Oct 10, 2013)

I am quite a fan of his.

Polaris, Concerto Conciso, Concentric Paths, Asyla, Piano Concerto, Chamber Symphony, are a few pieces that stand out. 

I couldn't tell you if he is in a particular style, I just listen to what I enjoy, and don't really pay attention to that sort of thing.


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## JackRance (Sep 13, 2021)

But do you think his music is high level music?
Because I'm not sure if buying tickets for The Tempest...


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## mmsbls (Mar 6, 2011)

I like Ades a lot as well. In addition to the works Simon listed, I really like Arcadiana and his Piano Quintet. I listened to a lot of Ades several years ago but then moved on to other composers. I should listen to more works from him to see what else I like. I'm also uncertain how he would be characterized.


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## mmsbls (Mar 6, 2011)

JackRance said:


> But do you think his music is high level music?
> Because I'm not sure if buying tickets for The Tempest...


I heard much of the Tempest online awhile ago. In general I thought it was enjoyable although not a must see (or hear) for me. You could listen to parts on youtube to see if you'd like to hear the opera.


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

JackRance said:


> But do you think his music is high level music?


I don't know and I don't care. I listen to Adés music occasionally and generally enjoy what I've heard. That is enough for me.

As far as you buying tickets to _The Tempest_, I'd suggest listening to it first and then decide if it is worth it to you to spend an evening with it.


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## Simon Moon (Oct 10, 2013)

JackRance said:


> But do you think his music is high level music?
> Because I'm not sure if buying tickets for The Tempest...


I am not really a fan of opera in general, so, I am not the right person to ask about The Tempest.

I can only speak to his orchestral and chamber music, which I place fairly highly.


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## Knorf (Jan 16, 2020)

Adès is a wonderful composer, bursting with creativity and craft. He's one of the few living composers where I always seek out anything of his being performed.

His _The Exterminating Angel_ is one of the most incredible experiences I've ever had in opera. Unforgettable, deeply profound, simply extraordinary.


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## Red Terror (Dec 10, 2018)

I found his opera "Powder Her Face" quite pedestrian. There are much more interesting contemporary composers to listen to.


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## Knorf (Jan 16, 2020)

Red Terror said:


> I found his opera "Powder Her Face" quite pedestrian. There are much more interesting contemporary composers to listen to.


There really aren't. Adès is one of the very best, and one of the most interesting.


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## Red Terror (Dec 10, 2018)

Knorf said:


> There really aren't. Adès is one of the very best, and one of the most interesting.


Here are some:

György Kurtág
James MacMillan
Vyacheslav Artyomov
Richard Barrett
Gustavo Díaz-Jerez
Christopher Rouse
Linda Buckley
Clara Iannotta


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## Knorf (Jan 16, 2020)

Red Terror said:


> Here are some:
> 
> György Kurtág
> James MacMillan
> ...


Adès is substantially more interesting than any of those composers, possibly excepting Kurtág.


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## Red Terror (Dec 10, 2018)

Knorf said:


> Adès is substantially more interesting than any of those composers, possibly excepting Kurtág.


You're entitled to an opinion.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Red Terror said:


> I found his opera "Powder Her Face" quite pedestrian. There are much more interesting contemporary composers to listen to.


I haven't kept up with opera, I've stopped going partly because I've lost interest in the genre, and very little by new composers is on video (for me it's really important to see a production.) What I would say is that, from the generation before Ades, Wolfgang Rihm is pretty good at opera and indeed vocal music generally. There's a DVD of his Jakob Lenz which you may enjoy if you can find it.

The last things I saw were both by Birtwistle -- the Mask of Orpheus and The Last Supper - but I don't think there's a way to access them and I certainly wouldn't get much from a sound recording.

Have you seen any of Stockhausen's Licht? I love this

http://intoclassics.net/news/2020-05-04-49220


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## Knorf (Jan 16, 2020)

Red Terror said:


> You're entitled to an opinion.


Gee, thanks.

ETA: I stand by _The Exterminating Angel_ as one of the absolutely most astounding achievements in opera since 1950. I'd rank it without hesitation alongside the likes of _Le Grande Macabre_, _Die Eroberung von Mexico_, _The Mask of Orpheus_, or _Un rei in ascolto_.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

JackRance said:


> What do you think about him? Please, write detailed answers if you can...


I have only heard his opera, The Tempest. I like it some and it is probably the only modern music I will listen to. Going to spin it now, in fact.


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## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

I have all the EMI stuff up until the Violin Concerto/_Teviot_ recording. I remember a performance of the vc on tv at the proms (can't recall either the year or the soloist but it was conducted by TA himself, I think) but have heard nothing since. I do enjoy the early music and for what it's worth I consider the _Five Eliot Landscapes_ as one of the most assured op.1s I've heard.

For those who have heard TA's later music as well as the early I ask if they can discern some kind of evolution in his work now that he has been on the scene for 30+ years.


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## Red Terror (Dec 10, 2018)

Mandryka said:


> I haven't kept up with opera, I've stopped going partly because I've lost interest in the genre, and very little by new composers is on video (for me it's really important to see a production.) What I would say is that, from the generation before Ades, Wolfgang Rihm is pretty good at opera and indeed vocal music generally. There's a DVD of his Jakob Lenz which you may enjoy if you can find it.
> 
> The last things I saw were both by Birtwistle -- the Mask of Orpheus and The Last Supper - but I don't think there's a way to access them and I certainly wouldn't get much from a sound recording.
> 
> ...


Yes. I've yet to finish the entire cycle. Of all composers, ol' Stocky still baffles me at times.


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## jegreenwood (Dec 25, 2015)

Knorf said:


> Adès is a wonderful composer, bursting with creativity and craft. He's one of the few living composers where I always seek out anything of his being performed.
> 
> His _The Exterminating Angel_ is one of the most incredible experiences I've ever had in opera. Unforgettable, deeply profound, simply extraordinary.


I don't follow contemporary opera generally, but the Met production of _The Exterminating An_ was very well received, so I watched it when it was broadcast on TV. Liked it a lot.


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## allaroundmusicenthusiast (Jun 3, 2020)

Knorf said:


> I stand by _The Exterminating Angel_ as one of the absolutely most astounding achievements in opera since 1950. I'd rank it without hesitation alongside the likes of _Le Grande Macabre_, _Die Eroberung von Mexico_, _The Mask of Orpheus_, or _Un rei in ascolto_.


Le Grand Macabre, Die Eroberung von Mexico and The Mask of Orpheus are some of my favourite operas. Therefore, I must listen to The Exterminating Angel. I love Berio but I haven't gotten around to Un re yet, don't know why. Maybe because it's not on spotify.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

allaroundmusicenthusiast said:


> Le Grand Macabre, Die Eroberung von Mexico and The Mask of Orpheus are some of my favourite operas. Therefore, I must listen to The Exterminating Angel. I love Berio but I haven't gotten around to Un re yet, don't know why. Maybe because it's not on spotify.


I can let you have a sound recording of The Exterminating Angel if you PM me.


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## JackRance (Sep 13, 2021)

Knorf said:


> There really aren't. Adès is one of the very best, and one of the most interesting.


Sorry Red Terror, but I believe in you, Knorf... I'm convinced I will buy the tickets for The Tempest


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## JackRance (Sep 13, 2021)

Knorf said:


> Gee, thanks.
> 
> ETA: I stand by _The Exterminating Angel_ as one of the absolutely most astounding achievements in opera since 1950. I'd rank it without hesitation alongside the likes of _Le Grande Macabre_, _Die Eroberung von Mexico_, _The Mask of Orpheus_, or _Un rei in ascolto_.


Is exactly what I wanted to know. If "The exterminating Angel" is at the same level of "Le Grand Macabre", I'm satisfied.


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## JackRance (Sep 13, 2021)

But how many of you thinks that Adès is at the same level to others composers like Ligeti, Stockhausen, Messiaen, Britten, etc.?


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## allaroundmusicenthusiast (Jun 3, 2020)

JackRance said:


> But how many of you thinks that Adès is at the same level to others composers like Ligeti, Stockhausen, Messiaen, Britten, etc.?


Not me, those are top shelf composers who changed music, Adès is not quite up there (yet, perhaps, he's still relatively young, maybe he can reach Britten's levels of greatness, but the other 3 are not within his reach, IMO)


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## Knorf (Jan 16, 2020)

JackRance said:


> Sorry Red Terror, but I believe in you, Knorf... I'm convinced I will buy the tickets for The Tempest


Enjoy! Please post here again afterwards with your thoughts, if you would.

And remember there's no disputing taste...


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## Knorf (Jan 16, 2020)

allaroundmusicenthusiast said:


> Not me, those are top shelf composers who changed music, Adès is not quite up there (yet, perhaps, he's still relatively young, maybe he can reach Britten's levels of greatness, but the other 3 are not within his reach, IMO)


I think Adès has changed music, actually, but it's quite a bit more subtle. The words "avant garde" haven't had any special meaning in music for several decades. Every extreme in music has been reached, up to and including music that specifies no sounds at all, only a time period to listen to sounds in, and music that is only comprised of massive waves of noise. I have affection for both, to be honest.

We have music where pitches are divided into smaller and smaller intervals, to the limits of human perception. We have music derived from algorithms and mathematical equations. We have music where all sounds are possible and none are impossible. We have music that maximally stretches the limits of human audibility and comprehensibility.

In the end, the boundaries for what music is or can be are only limited by the realm of physics itself.

And of course we have music that only ever plays it safe, staying within very specific, easily grasped, well understood, entirely comfortable boundaries, on a tiny field of play. That's most new music.

It's just not really possible to shake the music world to its foundations anymore, the way it once was. I'm not sure this is a bad thing.

My own ethos as a composer means resolutely looking forward rather than looking backwards. But where everything is possible and nothing is forbidden, I feel I must try to invent a synthesis from out of the multifarious possibilities of style and technique. Without sounding derivative, I can only seek to create or discover something wholly unexpected within the widest possible boundaries, but in places where perhaps no one has thought of. Beauty is everywhere!

Most modern composers (maybe most composers of all time) are basically magpies, always scavenging, but rarely integrating, and even more rarely coming up with anything unexpected.

It's really quite challenging to try to sound new and fresh, when the avant garde is no longer possible. Creativity demands no less.

The work of Adès provides one possible model for what I'm talking about. And that's not trivial.


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## allaroundmusicenthusiast (Jun 3, 2020)

Knorf said:


> I think Adès has changed music, actually, but it's quite a bit more subtle. The words "avant garde" haven't had any special meaning in music for several decades. Every extreme in music has been reached, up to and including music that specifies no sounds at all, only a time period to listen to sounds in, and music that is only comprised of massive waves of noise. I have affection for both, to be honest.
> 
> We have music where pitches are divided into smaller and smaller intervals, to the limits of human perception. We have music derived from algorithms and mathematical equations. We have music where all sounds are possible and none are impossible. We have music that maximally stretches the limits of human audibility and comprehensibility.
> 
> ...


(Deleted due to change in quoted post)


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## Knorf (Jan 16, 2020)

allaroundmusicenthusiast said:


> I don't think I understand all that well what you're trying to get at. Are you saying that Adès is a leading example of "integration" of styles in music? If that's your point, I don't think he really is, the Zeitgeist is already that, IMO. Beyond classical music too, and I think it started away from classical music (I'm not talking about fusion). Anyways, I think I agree with your general statement, but I still don't see how music today would be different without Adès. But music without Ligeti, Stockhausen and Messiaen would be tremendously different. Anyhow, those things cannot be well defined today, will see how much impact Adès has in the future.
> 
> (I don't want to take anything away from Adès, I like his music, just don't see how he can measure up to 3 or 4 of History's greatest)


I edited the post you quoted. Would you kindly edit your quote box so that it corresponds to the current version? Thanks.

My point is that overall, no I don't think I can place Adès on the same tier as Ligeti. Ligeti is just... well out of reach for almost anyone. Britten is a good comparison. Messiaen, Stockhausen: maybe. Tough to compare. But as I wrote, it's just not really possible to shake the classical music world to its foundations anymore, the way it was for them.

I am confident that if Adès were alive in the 1920s and 1930s, his music would have shaken up the world as much as anyone. And that Messiaen and Stockhausen, were they alive now, would struggle just as music as anyone in finding a distinctive path forward. That's my point.

There's no point in looking for earth-shattering innovation in music anymore. That time has passed. It won't happen again unless the limits to human perception and cognition change.


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## allaroundmusicenthusiast (Jun 3, 2020)

Knorf said:


> I edited the post you quoted. Would you kindly edit your quote box so that it corresponds to the current version? Thanks.
> 
> My point is that overall, no I don't think I can place Adès on the same tier as Ligeti. Ligeti is just... well out of reach for almost anyone. Britten is a good comparison. Messiaen, Stockhausen: maybe. Tough to compare. But as I wrote, it's just not really possible to shake the classical music world to its foundations anymore, the way it was for them.
> 
> ...


Ok, now I understand better. Yes, Ligeti is out of reach (he's my favourite composer, so how could I not agree?), but so are Messiaen and Stockhausen, first of all because I think they're simply far better composers than Adès, second because as you say it was relatively easier to shake the music world to its foundations when they were around.

But, and this is a big BUT, there was a time when I thought the same. Yes, it was easier back then to change paradigms, to create new ones (I'd say it was easier even still in the times before Ligeti, Messiaen, Stockhausen and Britten), but does that mean that it is entirely impossible? I think that with your comment you're kind of giving up on pure innovation. Integration of styles with a distinct voice (which I take as not being derivative, and without resulting to a potpourri) is perhaps the norm today if you want to make good music (that's the music being made today that I like or love, and beyond classical music too). But is that all there is? In the end the question for me is: is Adès a genius on the level of Ligeti? Is anyone today on that level? The answers to both those questions are no, and probably no. Furthermore, if Ligeti was young or relatively young today, could he change music? I think so, yes. It's not a question of possibility, but of being able to witness in one's lifetime a-once-in-a-century-genius composer. I'm hoping I'll get to see one.

This can engender a long and very interesting discussion, maybe another thread would be more fitting for it, if people are up for it.


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## Neo Romanza (May 7, 2013)

JackRance said:


> But how many of you thinks that Adès is at the same level to others composers like Ligeti, Stockhausen, Messiaen, Britten, etc.?


I think it's too early to tell about Adès. I'm not sure I'm all about saying who the better composer is, but of the list you gave, I'd say that Ligeti is in his own category. Nobody sounds like him and no one ever will. The others are a bit more easy to emulate in some way. I'm not saying that Adès emulates any of them, but it would be more plausible of a task to do something like Britten or Messiaen. One must remember that Adès had a huge splash on the scene earlier in the career, but it seems his music is currently going through a metamorphosis of sorts in that he's kind of moved away from his earlier more avant-garde stylings. Anyway, I just think this question is impossible to give a good answer to other than to say that not enough time has elapsed since his emergence on the scene.


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## Simon Moon (Oct 10, 2013)

JackRance said:


> But how many of you thinks that Adès is at the same level to others composers like Ligeti, Stockhausen, Messiaen, Britten, etc.?


As of now, even though I like Ades quite a bit, he does not reach the level of Ligeti for me, nor Elliott Carter, Charles Wuorinen, Joan Tower, and a few others.

But he certainly has potential.


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## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

I find his music kind of bland: not too difficult to grasp, yet not very accessible, not very memorable. I get a strong sense there is something there holding the music together, but my attention just keeps drifting off. In the end it just feels like work, listening to his music.


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## Knorf (Jan 16, 2020)

One further thought: to be a composer in the 2020s is as least as different from being a composer in the 1950s as being a composer in the 1950s was different from being a composer in the 1880s! Think about _that_!

ETA, I lied: also, consider that innovation as a critical criterion for a composer is an idea deeply rooted in Romantic-era thinking, and is well past its shelf life.

In thinking more about this, I think Adès is a superior composer to Stockhausen. Certainly, I know whose operas _I'd_ rather see or listen to!

And, as always, _de gustibus non est disputandum_.


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

JackRance said:


> But how many of you thinks that Adès is at the same level to others composers like Ligeti, Stockhausen, Messiaen, Britten, etc.?


I don't think like that, but I consider Thomas Adés a very talented composer and one whose music, or at least a few of his works, will outlive his lifetime and become part of the Classical repertory. He's still relatively young and hopefully will continue to write music and who knows what the future will hold. I think one of his strengths is in writing for the theatre and I do hope more operas will come.

These works have a shot:

An Exterminating Angel
Asyla
Piano Quintet
Darknesse Visible (for solo piano)
The Tempest
Violin Concerto: Concentric Paths


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## Knorf (Jan 16, 2020)

I'm quite keen on all the works SanAntone mentions, and I'd add the recentish Piano Concerto. 

But I do agree that's it's really way too soon to fairly evaluate Adès's legacy. I mean, he's barely 50, which is pretty young for a modern composer, and there's been too little time to observe what enduring impact his music might have.

Heck, I'm not sure it isn't still too soon to evaluate Boulez's legacy, or Stockhausen's, or Berio's. Ligeti, though: I think it's pretty sure his legacy is assured. Boulez's might be as well. It actually seems like his music is being programmed more now than when he was alive! That's saying something.


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## allaroundmusicenthusiast (Jun 3, 2020)

Knorf said:


> I lied: also, consider that innovation as a critical criterion for a composer is an idea deeply rooted in Romantic-era thinking, and is well past its shelf life.


For me it never is critical, but we are talking about three innovative composers certainly in the case of Ligeti, Stockhausen and Messiaen, and that's part of why they shook the musical landscape. Is Adès at that level of innovation? No. Also, perhaps we should define innovation. My compass in that sense is Schumpeter (although not a definition made specifically for art in any sense, his are guiding principles for me), and innovation is different from originality, which, for me, is a Romantic notion and past its shelf life, as you say. Heck, I don't think originality exists or was ever even possible. Always a misguided concept IMO.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Phil loves classical said:


> I find his music kind of bland: not too difficult to grasp, yet not very accessible, not very memorable. I get a strong sense there is something there holding the music together, but my attention just keeps drifting off. In the end it just feels like work, listening to his music.


Listen to the op 1 Elliot settings. I think it's the summit.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Knorf said:


> There's no point in looking for earth-shattering innovation in music anymore. That time has passed. It won't happen again unless the limits to human perception and cognition change.


One composer who seems to be to be very innovative is Martin Arnold.

I was speaking to a composer/academic a few months ago about harmonic innovation and he singled out Mark R Taylor's Moments Musicaux.


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## Knorf (Jan 16, 2020)

Mandryka said:


> One composer who seems to be to be very innovative is Martin Arnold.
> 
> I was speaking to a composer/academic a few months ago about harmonic innovation and he singled out Mark R Taylor's Moments Musicaux.


They both work within previously established boundaries. ETA I had to go investigate Martin Arnold, because I know that name as an experimental filmmaker. Different guy.

N.B. I am not, emphatically _not_, saying there is no room for creavity, even originality and experimentation, to a point. There remains plenty of room, effectively infinite, for undiscovered style and esthetic within the known boundaries.

And that is where I think Adés is notably remarkable in his achievements and success as a composer.

ETA: I think of it like global exploration. No one is going to discover a new continent on Planet Earth, nor a new mountain range, etc. But you might discover a new species of butterfly...


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## JackRance (Sep 13, 2021)

I think that in this case, time will answer.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Knorf said:


> They both work within previously established boundaries. ETA I had to go investigate Martin Arnold, because I know that name as an experimental filmmaker. Different guy.
> 
> N.B. I am not, emphatically _not_, saying there is no room for creavity, even originality and experimentation, to a point. There remains plenty of room, effectively infinite, for undiscovered style and esthetic within the known boundaries.
> 
> ...


The last person to discover a new mountain range? Lachenmann maybe.

I fond Martin Arnold's music totally weird.


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## Knorf (Jan 16, 2020)

Mandryka said:


> The last person to discover a new mountain range? Lachenmann maybe.


Or possibly Ligeti. His late style still feels new mountain-rangey to me.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Knorf said:


> Or possibly Ligeti. His late style still feels new mountain-rangey to me.


Help me to hear that please -- what should I listen to and for? I should say I very much enjoy the horn trio for example, but the music sounds so organic and inevitable and agreeable that somehow I've never thought of it as radically new. I haven't been _shocked _, no shock of the new!

By the way, not a mountain range, but I've been really enjoying The Jack Quartet play Roger Reynolds recently -- check it out if you don't know it, I think it's wonderful.


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## Knorf (Jan 16, 2020)

A full discussion of late Ligeti should probably be its own thread. But the innovative components for me come from two essential points of view.

First, that Ligeti would seemlessly layer in repetitive rhythmic devices derived from folk-music (Eastern Europe but also African drumming and Caribbean indigenius music, similar to those rhythms employed by Steve Reich) into his densely chromatic harmonic and melodic language. As you note, looking backwards, it almost comes across organically, as in the Horn Trio, as if a natural expansion of the machine-breaking down music he had used before, except that now it _grooves_. At the time, it raised eyebrows and prompted gasps.

To be fair, Bartók is a clear antecedent in this sense, having already employed complex mixed rhythms with a chromatic melodic subject. But the broad way Ligeti layers in Reichian combinatorial rhythms of Eastern Europe with those of Africa and the Caribbean was really quite extraordinary, and goes much further than anyone.

Second was the way Ligeti played with intonation and microtonality, in specifically indeterminate contexts. There was an earlier precedent with _Ramifications_ (1968), which features two string orchestras separated in space, tuned a quarter-tone apart. The tendency is for the pitch of the two ensembles to slide together uncontrollably, and _that was the point_: indeterminate tuning and a smeared resulting tonality.

In the Horn Trio (1982), it's observed with the horn part being instructed to play on the natural overtone series, allowing the pitch of the natural overtones to deliberately clash with the equal-tempered piano.

Again, to be fair, Britten did this earlier, in his Serenade for tenor, horn, and strings, as did Vaughan Williams in his _Pastorale Symphony_. But Ligeti takes it further! This is especially realized in the Piano Concerto (1988) and Violin Concerto (1993), and most of all in the _Hamburg Concerto_ (1999). In that piece, the solo horn is accompanied by four obbligato natural horns, tuned if I recall correctly, to D, E-flat, E, and F. The resulting indeterminate microtonal harmony is extraordinarily complex and beautiful, like nothing else heard before. It's stunning and sublime.

Put these things together: Ligeti's distinctive "micopolyphony", these amazing, combinatorially variable rhythmic grooves from various folk music sources and minimalism (mainly Steve Reich), a deep exploration into indeterminate micotonality, all guided with an unerring command of craft by a powerful, musical personality, and you have Ligeti's late style. It was a big deal. It was the best response possible within post-serial modernism. (Side note: in my opinion, the term "post-modernism" is wrongly applied to Ligeti.)

Of course, by the 1980s, the musical world was already not in a place where it was going to shaken up by any classical composer; only the outrageous antics of pop music entertainers were getting substantial media attention anymore.

But what Ligeti did in the 80s and 90s definitively altered the course of modern music. At the time, there was quite a lot of "wait what is happening, here?" with new Ligeti premieres. It turns out minimalism and modernism were not incompatible after all!


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## allaroundmusicenthusiast (Jun 3, 2020)

That's a very nice post Knorf! Only thing I'd add is that I hear in some early (pre-60's) Ligeti pieces that he was trying to get to places that Reich would get to many many years later. So I think Ligeti felt connected to that brand of minimalism from the first time he listened to his music. The second piece of the three pieces for two pianos from 1976 is indeed titled "Selbsportrait mit Riley und Reich". I don't know how much early Ligeti Reich listened to, if I were to wager I'd say none, most likely he knew his important works from the 60s, which are not so proto-reichian let's say. 
What do you think?


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Thanks for the response Knorf. There was a lot happening in the 1980s and your post will make me think about Ligeti some more. A friend of mine was in Donaueschinger in 1982 I think, and he talks about the impact of Walter Zimmermann.


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