# Female Composers



## Guest

Hopefully there will come a day when it would seem odd to to be talking about female composers as a category. Until then, here is a thread to promote and celebrate the music of female composers. I confess I am aware of only a few, so I shall certainly be hoping to investigate names that are new to me.

:tiphat:


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## Guest

Jennifer Higdon
Blue Cathedral


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## Nereffid

The (male) composer Rob Deemer has a Women Composers Database available on Google Docs. It's got over 3000 names on it, though it must be noted that the great majority of them are living, which means that people who have a disliking for contemporary music are making it harder for themselves to appreciate women composers.

Three particular favourites of mine: Julia Wolfe, Hildegard von Bingen, and Meredith Monk.
Three others whose music I really like but haven't heard a huge amount of yet: Caroline Shaw, Lois V Vierk, Kate Moore.


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## Strange Magic

Clara Schumann's piano concerto is enjoyable, as are pieces by Lili Boulanger, and Germaine Tailleferre....


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## schigolch

I love this String Quartet written by Ruth Crawford-Seeger in 1931:


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## Guest

Gloria Coates
Holographic Universe


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## RICK RIEKERT

My fellow New Yorker and shakuhachi aficionado, Elizabeth Brown.This piece was commissioned by Itzhak and Toby Perlman for the 21st birthday of their daughter, flutist Ariella Perlman. Ariella performed the premiere in 2006 at Rice University in Houston. Vive la différence!


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## Art Rock

Among the best living composers: Sofia Gubaidulina and Kaija Saariaho.


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## Jacck

Emilie Mayer - Symphony No.7 in F-minor (1856)


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## Ingélou

I am fond of French baroque composer Élisabeth Jacquet de La Guerre - I learned about her from a female Friend on TC, Heather Reichgott (hreichgott). :tiphat:

Here's a link to some of her cembalo suites:


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## Jacck

Dora Pejačević - Symphony in F sharp minor, Op. 41 (1918)


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## Jacck

Grażyna Bacewicz: Concerto for String Orchestra (1948)




I have heard several pieces from her and all are really good


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## Pugg

Louise Farrenc - Nonet in E-flat major, Op.38 (1849)


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## Genoveva

I have quite a good collection of works by female composers down the ages. Picking out a few of my special favourites from the main time periods:

Medieval: Hildegard von Bingen (1098-1179) is the obvious starting point from a historical perspective. I reckon that I must have almost everything the dear lady ever composed. It's inspiring music to say the least.

Renaissance: Suor Eleonora d'Este 1515-1575. She was the daughter of Lucretia Borgia of the famous Italian noble family in Ferrara. She entered a convent and was the probable composer of many motets although, being a woman, a nun and a princess, she was unable to have the works attributed to her by name. She featured in a very good BBC Radio 3 programme a year or so ago featuring a number of other Ferrara composers. The artists Musica Secreta, Celestial Sirens are worth checking out in this area.

Baroque: Barbara Strozzi 1619-1677. She was from the Padua area in what is now Italy, and is probably one of the best female known composers of this era. She was also a gifted singer. She was famous in her own day and wrote many madrigals and lay songs as well as and sacred works of various descriptions.

Classical: Vanessa von Paradis 1759-1824. She is one among several reasonably well known female composers of this era, but to be frank there is no one in this era that really strikes me as outstanding.

Early/mid Romantic: There are so many to choose from here that one is spoiled for choice. Among my favourites are:

· Louise Farrenc 1804-1875. Try her piano trio, piano quintet, and sextet.
· Fanny Mendelssohn (1805-1847). She wrote some very nice chamber music. Her early death had a profoundly disturbing effect on brother Felix. 
· Clara Schumann 1819-1896. Quite a remarkable women, not just a very good composer but probably among the best concert pianists of the 19th C, mother, staunch promoter of her late husband's work, and close friend/mentor supporter of Brahms. 
· Alice Mary Smith 1839-1884. Try her Symphony in A minor.

Late Romantic: Again there are quite a few to choose from, but the ones I like especially are:

· Cecile Chaminade 1857-1944 who was once quite famous, but now less so, she is probably one of my overall favourite female composers. I especially like many of her piano solo works and two piano trios.
· Dame Ethel Smyth 1858-1944 (also a famous member of the Suffragette movement), one of the best female composers who wrote across several genres, chamber, orchestral, opera, sacred works.
· Amy Beach 1867-1947. One of the best. She wrote some very good chamber works, piano solo, and orchestral works.

20th C: Lots to choose from in the 20th C, the more so as the century wore on. Two I like especially are:

Sofia Gubaidulina 1931- her Violin Concerto is well worth trying.

Kaiija Saariaho 1952- try her very delightful 'Cendres, for alto flute, cello & piano'.


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## Manxfeeder

Gabriela Lena Frank has been making some waves recently, drawing from her Peruvian heritage (her father is Lithuanian Jewish and her mother is Chinese but from Peru).


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## Manxfeeder

dogen said:


> Gloria Coates
> Holographic Universe


I don't know why, but Gloria Coates' music is always interesting to me.


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## Guest

Manxfeeder said:


> I don't know why, but Gloria Coates' music is always interesting to me.


I've got several CDs of her music, mainly symphonies and string quartets. The music often has an ethereal quality to it I think. But this piece seems a bit more like a tussle between Penderecki and Bach


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## Manxfeeder

Joan Tower got known through her Fanfares for the Uncommon Woman. I think she's up to five of them by now.


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## bharbeke

I will second the praise of Amy Beach. I've only tried a couple of works, but I liked both of them a lot.


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## Blancrocher

One of my favorite contemporary music albums--Unsuk Chin's Cello Concerto, in particular, is one of the most infectious recent pieces I know of.


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## bharbeke

Clara Schumann's piano concerto is terrific (try the Cheng/Falletta/Women's Philharmonic version).


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## Becca

Coincidentally an article about Florence Price appeared in Friday's New York Times...

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/02/09/arts/music/florence-price-arkansas-symphony-concerto.html?rref=collection%2Fsectioncollection%2Fmusic


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## Manxfeeder

Connie Ellisor's Blackberry Winter was a hit in Nashville when it first came out.


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## TurnaboutVox

Elizabeth Maconchy (1907 - 94). 

I have had some difficulty obtaining recordings of her works. Her 13 string quartets have been recorded just once, as far as I know, and are very good. Unfortunately the second-hand CDs I've managed to track down have 'bronzed' and so I haven't been able to hear the last movement of one or two of them. I also have a fine disc of her orchestral works by the LSO with Handley and the LPO under Barry Wordsworth. I particularly enjoyed her 'Symphony for Double String Orchestra' and the 'Serenata Concertante for Violin and Orchestra'.


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## mbhaub

The Amy Beach symphony is wonderful - tuneful, dramatic, and it is quite satisfying emotionally. The piano concert is excellent, too. I've played the symphony and it was a lot of fun. There are quite a few contemporary female composers, but they suffer the same fate of contemporary male composers: audiences don't care and don't want to hear it. Audiences by and large want their concerts to be filled from the well-known and worn-out 19th century repertoire and there just isn't that much there from the women. Clara Schumann can't be the only one represented. Mary Alice Smith was no Beethoven, or even Mendelssohn. Cecile Chaminade is perceived as a light weight of frilly music by a lot of musicians. 

2020 will be a chance for orchestras small and large in the US to do something about this deplorable situation: it's the 100 anniversary of 19th amendment - women's voting rights. One group I play with and do some conducting has already started looking into doing at least one work by a female composer on each of the six concerts in the 2019/2020 season. And one concert we jokingly want to call No Men Allowed. Keeping my fingers crossed.


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## Becca

One composer who made some headway about 100 years ago but has mostly faded away is Ethel Smythe. I recently rediscovered some of her music to the opera _The Wreckers_


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## TurnaboutVox

There's also Rebecca Clarke, whose sonata for viola and piano, rhapsody for 'cello and piano and piano trio are I think tolerably well known on this forum.


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## Simon Moon

dogen said:


> Hopefully there will come a day when it would seem odd to to be talking about female composers as a category. Until then, here is a thread to promote and celebrate the music of female composers. I confess I am aware of only a few, so I shall certainly be hoping to investigate names that are new to me.
> 
> :tiphat:


I already think it is odd talking about female composers as a category.

But then, most of the music I listen to is from the later half of the 20th century and contemporary eras.

I'm not going to speak about how tough modern female composers have it, but I am sure it can't be as bad as it was pre 20th century.

I also am not hung up on the big name composers, I let the quality of the piece be my guide. And from that perspective, there is no reason to think about female composers as a category.

In my mind, a great piece from a well known composer like Carter or Penderecki, is no different than a great piece from Joan Tower or Thea Musgrave.


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## Enthusiast

I certainly agree with those putting forward Gubaidulina. Indeed, she is surely one of the very greatest living composers, regardless of gender. 

I've also enjoyed music by Sally Beamish and, going back a little, Elisabeth Lutyens.


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## Guest

Simon Moon said:


> In my mind, a great piece from a well known composer like Carter or Penderecki, is no different than a great piece from Joan Tower or Thea Musgrave.


I completely agree. It's not about the quality of the composition, but rather issues around recognition, equality and opportunity, which hopefully have improved compared to pre 20th century.


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## Bluecrab

dogen said:


> Jennifer Higdon
> Blue Cathedral


I really like Jennifer Higdon's music, especially her chamber music. If you haven't heard it, you should listen to her two-movement Piano Trio. The first movement is lyrically beautiful. Another nice work is An Exaltation of Larks (string quartet).

Just a quick mention of some living female composers whose work I really like: Beata Moon, Judith Lang Zaimont, Nancy Galbraith, Alex Shapiro, Shulamit Ran... fortunately, the list is long.


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## senza sordino

TurnaboutVox said:


> There's also Rebecca Clarke, whose sonata for viola and piano, rhapsody for 'cello and piano and piano trio are I think tolerably well known on this forum.


I bought this cd of Rebecca Clarke as a Christmas present to myself









I bought this cd with her Piano Trio about a year ago









I really enjoy the music of Gubaidulina. At the recent New Music Festival our local orchestra played Kaija Saariaho Ciel d'hiver. And a couple of years ago they played Blue Cathedral by Jennifer Higdon. The composer in residence for our local professional orchestra is Jocelyn Morlock.

I've also enjoyed listening to the music of Amy Beach, Cecile Chaminade, Grazyna Bacewicz and Louise Farrenc. Lamentablely, I don't have many CDs in my collection of women composers.


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## Guest

Bluecrab said:


> I really like Jennifer Higdon's music, especially her chamber music. If you haven't heard it, you should listen to her two-movement Piano Trio. The first movement is lyrically beautiful. Another nice work is An Exaltation of Larks (string quartet).


I knew the name, but can't say I've heard much by her. Definitely one for me to investigate.


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## Johnnie Burgess

Nereffid said:


> The (male) composer Rob Deemer has a Women Composers Database available on Google Docs. It's got over 3000 names on it, though it must be noted that the great majority of them are living, which means that people who have a disliking for contemporary music are making it harder for themselves to appreciate women composers.
> 
> Three particular favourites of mine: Julia Wolfe, Hildegard von Bingen, and Meredith Monk.
> Three others whose music I really like but haven't heard a huge amount of yet: Caroline Shaw, Lois V Vierk, Kate Moore.


If a person wrote music I liked it would not matter if it was by a woman or a man and the same goes for music I do not like.


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## Vasks

The fact that the list today is quite long does show that much, if not all, progress has been made. As a composer myself, I see female composers all the time at various new music festivals, composer conferences, etc. However, there is not a 50/50 representation at most. I usually see 70% or more male at them. Is that because of a bias? I don't think so, because none of the composers I have ever interacted with, show any prejudice when it comes to gender. Interestingly, there are still some women composer only events/festivals that take place, so clearly not everyone is convinced that everything gender-wise is balanced.


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## TxllxT

Irina Denisova from Belarus is a nun / composer. Her oeuvre is small, but of splendid quality.


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## Genoveva

Becca said:


> One composer who made some headway about 100 years ago but has mostly faded away is Ethyl Smythe. I recently rediscovered some of her music to the opera _The Wreckers_


I mentioned Dame Ethel Smyth in my earlier post.

She had an interesting and varied life. Her father (a major general in the British Army) was against her going into the world of music, but she ignored that and took private lessons. After that, she left her comfortable home in the South of England in order to study music at the Leipzig Conservatory, where she met and mixed with all sorts of very famous composers (Brahms, Wagner).

Once her composing career got under way, she wrote in several genres, but her success rate was rather mixed. Her opera _The Wreckers _is among the success stories as it became to be widely acclaimed. She wrote another opera, _The Boatswain's Mate_. In addition to opera, she wrote some sacred music (a mass), music for piano solo, chamber music, and various orchestral works. One of the criticisms she met by critics of the day with was that her music sounded too masculine in nature.

From 1910, she became closely involved in the "suffragette" movement (this being the name of the women's political organisation that fought a long and very tough battle in the UK seeking votes for women). In this connection, one of her most famous works was the song "_The March for Women_" which she wrote in 1910. This became the official anthem of the suffragette organisation that she joined. Among her various escapades as a suffragette, she famously landed herself in Holloway Prison (a women's prison in London) for a 2-month sentence for breaking windows of politicians who opposed votes for women. Whilst she was in there, she organised a protest and had all of her jailed-up colleagues marching around the prison's quadrangle whilst she conducted the whole thing from a window by waving a toothbrush.

Her hearing began to fail her from 1913 and her musical output slowed a lot. From 1919, she embarked on a new career in literature that continued up to around 1940, by which time she had written several books. By 1934, her hearing had completely failed.

For her services to music and literature, she was awarded the _Dame Commander of the British Empire_ in 1922, and she became the first female composer to be awarded a damehood. Her music was admired and promoted by Sir Thomas Beecham, the famous English conductor.

She had several love affairs in her life, not only with the occasional man but also mostly with women. Concerning the latter, she is reported to have had a close relationship with of the leader of the suffragette movement, the very famous Emmeline Pankhurst.

I find Dame Ethel's career quite fascinating. I am also a bit of fan of her music, of which I have acquired quite a lot and some of which I enjoy a great deal.


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## Nereffid

Johnnie Burgess said:


> If a person wrote music I liked it would not matter if it was by a woman or a man and the same goes for music I do not like.


Only a die-hard sexist would disagree with that sentiment. The issue is more to do with representation. For example, if among living composers the men outnumber the women by, say, 6 to 1 (I'm not sure what the actual proportion is), and I look at my music collection and find that the men outnumber the women by, say, 12 to 1 then I should be asking myself how that happened, given that I can't tell the composer's gender by listening to their music. Similarly if concert programming of new music shows too big a disparity: what are the reasons, and how can they be addressed?


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## Johnnie Burgess

Nereffid said:


> Only a die-hard sexist would disagree with that sentiment. The issue is more to do with representation. For example, if among living composers the men outnumber the women by, say, 6 to 1 (I'm not sure what the actual proportion is), and I look at my music collection and find that the men outnumber the women by, say, 12 to 1 then I should be asking myself how that happened, given that I can't tell the composer's gender by listening to their music. Similarly if concert programming of new music shows too big a disparity: what are the reasons, and how can they be addressed?


Classical music should be one area where this should not matter because the composer does not perform the music but someone else does. And I buy music that I like to listen to and I am not concerned with genders.


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## Larkenfield

Beautiful & emotionally soaring score. What's not to love?





o


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## joen_cph

Should I pick 7 to focus on, it would probably be 

- Gubaidulina, 
- Saariaho, 
- Gloria Coates (not for the string quartets though, IMHO), 
- Onute Narbutaite, 
- Lucia Dlugoszewski,
- Ruth Crawford-Seeger,
- Grazyna Bacewiz.


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## Becca

Nereffid said:


> For example, if among living composers the men outnumber the women by, say, 6 to 1 (I'm not sure what the actual proportion is), and I look at my music collection and find that the men outnumber the women by, say, 12 to 1 then I should be asking myself how that happened, given that I can't tell the composer's gender by listening to their music.


At that point I would start looking at the percentage representation on recorded media which, I am sure is not the same as the proportion of women composers.


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## Becca

Larkenfield said:


> Wonderful. I've become a fan. Well worth hearing:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> o


I are you sure that this isn't the newly discovered Serenade #3 by Brahms?


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## KenOC

Some numbers that may be of interest: According to a Baltimore Symphony Orchestra report, 1,532 different works were performed at 3,091 concerts by 85 American orchestra during the 2016-17 season.

Just 1.3% of the works performed were by woman composers. Of works by living composers, 10.3% were by women.


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## Guest

In Bulldog's "Top Five Female Composers" game the winners were:

1. Sofia Gubaidulina
2. Unsuk Chin
3. Louise Farrenc
4. Amy Beach
5. Galina Ustvolskaya

http://www.talkclassical.com/52138-top-five-female-composers-2.html?highlight=Female

:tiphat:


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## Larkenfield

Becca said:


> I are you sure that this isn't the newly discovered Serenade #3 by Brahms?


LOL. I'm not reminded of Brahms. She reveals herself more openly than he usually does. But some of her orchestration could have been influenced by him, so skillfully done they are. I hear her as her own person. She could hold her own with anyone and let the music fly. I've heard other works by her with the same authority and command, and she was criticized for it, for sounding 'too masculine'. I love the clarity of her themes & ideas and don't see that as either masculine or feminine. Amazingly gifted composer and I'm going to look for her opera that was produced at the Met in I believe 1903. I doubt that I will be disappointed. I'm listening to her Serenade again and it's a beaut. Her writing is powerful and she could kick a*s. Cheers.


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## Guest

Manxfeeder said:


> Gabriela Lena Frank has been making some waves recently, drawing from her Peruvian heritage (her father is Lithuanian Jewish and her mother is Chinese but from Peru).


"This video is not available"


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## Guest

Manxfeeder said:


> Joan Tower got known through her Fanfares for the Uncommon Woman. I think she's up to five of them by now.


"Video not available" ... and the next one....?


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## Guest

Barbara Strozzi from the 17th century is quite special.


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## Room2201974

How about Ellen Taaffe Zwilich, the first woman to win the Pulitzer Prize for Music?


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## QuietGuy

Cecille Chaminade 
Libby Larsen


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## kyjo

My current favorite woman composer is Amy Beach. Her 'Gaelic' Symphony, Piano Concerto, and Theme and Variations for flute and string quartet are superb, melodically fecund, and satisfying works. I am also quite fond of Chaminade, whose music is often dismissed as "lightweight" but possesses a great melodic talent. Her delightful, brief Thème varié for piano was a great recent discovery of mine:


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## Chromatose

Nereffid said:


> Only a die-hard sexist would disagree with that sentiment. The issue is more to do with representation. For example, if among living composers the men outnumber the women by, say, 6 to 1 (I'm not sure what the actual proportion is), and I look at my music collection and find that the men outnumber the women by, say, 12 to 1 then I should be asking myself how that happened, given that I can't tell the composer's gender by listening to their music. Similarly if concert programming of new music shows too big a disparity: what are the reasons, and how can they be addressed?


I know this likely won't be a very popular opinion but I think if we were to wait 100 to 200 years into the future (when in all probability we won't even make it that far as a species) I really don't think the ratios would change that drastically. There is plenty of evidence that women in a free and oppression-less society gravitate towards careers that involve dealing with people and social skills.

http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0153857

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4839696/

This is not to say all women or that men don't do those jobs as well but when given the choice of what careers they actually want, not as many women go into many of the fields men do and visa versa. This is why in many completely gender equal countries (like Iceland, Finland, Norway, ect) the divisions between men and women are even larger than in other countries in STEM research and even the arts, while in those same countries women as teachers and nurses outnumber men in those professions 20 to 1.

Maybe men and women are just interested in different things and people make too much of this whole "why aren't there as many women in every field as men, they need to be just as evenly represented in every job". Of course women should have the same opportunities as men and get equal pay but when women just don't want to go work construction jobs or work on oil rigs or design machine parts (again not all women, yes I know many women do want to do those things just not near as many as men) do we really want to be calling foul constantly and trying to change that by insisting there be 50/50 representation in every single profession or art?


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## Becca

Chromatose said:


> ...yes I know many women do want to do those things just not near as many as men) do we really want to be calling foul constantly and trying to change that by insisting there be 50/50 representation in every single profession or art?


Nobody is calling for a 50:50 split, that will never happen and, in all probability, should not. What is important is to give everyone an equal and unrestricted chance to succeed in their field of choice. We shouldn't have a world where (e.g.) a young girl, after seeing a woman conduct an orchestra, said "I didn't know that women were allowed to be conductors." So yes, we do need to be calling foul wherever there is subtle (and not so infrequently, unsubtle) pressures applied or opportunities are restricted.


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## Chromatose

Becca said:


> Nobody is calling for a 50:50 split, that will never happen and, in all probability, should not. What is important is to give everyone an equal and unrestricted chance to succeed in their field of choice. We shouldn't have a world where (e.g.) a young girl, after seeing a woman conduct an orchestra, said "I didn't know that women were allowed to be conductors." So yes, we do need to be calling foul wherever there is subtle (and not so infrequently, unsubtle) pressures applied or opportunities are restricted.


I respect this viewpoint entirely and heartily agree yet I still believe if one were to play out the thought experiment I gave in the beginning of my last post I would prove correct about the ratios remaining largely the same.

If your were to ask any lay person or even someone who had a sampler knowledge of orchestral music they would be hard pressed to be able to name one female composer and I expect that would remain the case many centuries into the future, no matter how many subtle or unsubtle restrictions are erased and stamped out.


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## Becca

Chromatose said:


> I respect this viewpoint entirely and heartily agree yet I still believe if one were to play out the thought experiment I gave in the beginning of my last post I would prove correct about the ratios remaining largely the same.
> 
> If your were to ask any lay person or even someone who had a sampler knowledge of orchestral music they would be hard pressed to be able to name one female composer and I expect that would remain the case many centuries into the future, no matter how many subtle or unsubtle restrictions are erased and stamped out.


The problem with your argument is that you are being too restrictive in the polling population.

I obviously can't speak for the situation about composers in future centuries but what I can speak to, and is quite clear now, is conducting. Once a total male bastion, now, as gender barriers are being broken down, we are seeing many very qualified women choosing to enter the field. While the 'lay person' may not be able to name any, I would be very surprised if there were any here on TC who could not name a few, which probably would not have been the case 20 years ago. If we are to look ahead maybe 30-40 years, as more enter and careers develop, I would be very surprised if some became known to the average person. So please explain to me why composing will turn out to be any different?


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## Chromatose

Becca said:


> The problem with your argument is that you are being too restrictive in the polling population.
> 
> I obviously can't speak for the situation about composers in future centuries but what I can speak to, and is quite clear now, is conducting. Once a total male bastion, now, as gender barriers are being broken down, we are seeing many very qualified women choosing to enter the field. While the 'lay person' may not be able to name any, I would be very surprised if there were any here on TC who could not name a few, which probably would not have been the case 20 years ago. If we are to look ahead maybe 30-40 years, as more enter and careers develop, I would be very surprised if some became known to the average person. So please explain to me why composing will turn out to be any different?


Well I'd imagine it has something to do with the idea that in the orchestra the ratios of men and women are virtually the same since the first waves of feminism came to root. In some 50 years we've seen orchestras go from primarily men to now nearly an even split. This I'd credit to the continuing progressive attitudes and increased freedom to all people.

However even though the ratios of players in the orchestra have gained excellent momentum to the point of having almost entirely worked itself out in that 50 years or so there has been no real surge at all in the number of women who are on the other side of the page writing the music itself (again not without exceptions but no where near the levels of just players). I'd chalk this up to the notion that art is far more difficult than just playing the art of others (here again I should mention even with men, more men are going to be in the orchestra on an instrument rather than be composers because it's way harder to succeed achievement in abstract original expression such as composing, than it is to simply perform it)

With this idea in mind I find similarities in the conducting point because ultimately, conducting is way more demanding and time consuming than just being a simple member of the orchestra. Not to detract from the idea that many men are old fashion and just don't think women should lead orchestras or other sexism at play. I'm sure that still remains an issue to this day which is why I agree we should continue to champion for women to have their complete freedom to do as they wish. Yet, I still maintain as we become more and more equal it is conceivable that there will still be not as many women who want to be conductors for said reasons.


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## KenOC

The League of American Orchestras says that women make up 47% of orchestral personnel in the US. But women conduct only 8.8% of concerts, or 5.5% of concerts by "major" orchestras.


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## Becca

Chromatose said:


> Yet, I still maintain as we become more and more equal it is conceivable that there will still be not as many women who want to be conductors for said reasons.


You are probably correct but that was not your original point, nor my rebuttal.


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## Chromatose

Becca said:


> You are probably correct but that was not your original point, nor my rebuttal.


Fair enough.. And like I said I completely agree with you, we should still continue to monitor and oppose the sexism that remains in the underbelly of society but we've come a long way and I'm optimistic about what we can do with the new ideas female minds can give us in the future generations to come considering how long feminine thinking was suppressed throughout human history. In the context of history women have only really had there say for around 5 minutes (50 years against thousands of oppression is what I mean to say) so it's exciting to see how that can influence society.


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## Nereffid

Chromatose said:


> I know this likely won't be a very popular opinion but I think if we were to wait 100 to 200 years into the future (when in all probability we won't even make it that far as a species) I really don't think the ratios would change that drastically. There is plenty of evidence that women in a free and oppression-less society gravitate towards careers that involve dealing with people and social skills.
> 
> http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0153857
> 
> https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4839696/
> 
> This is not to say all women or that men don't do those jobs as well but when given the choice of what careers they actually want, not as many women go into many of the fields men do and visa versa. This is why in many completely gender equal countries (like Iceland, Finland, Norway, ect) the divisions between men and women are even larger than in other countries in STEM research and even the arts, while in those same countries women as teachers and nurses outnumber men in those professions 20 to 1.
> 
> Maybe men and women are just interested in different things and people make too much of this whole "why aren't there as many women in every field as men, they need to be just as evenly represented in every job". Of course women should have the same opportunities as men and get equal pay but when women just don't want to go work construction jobs or work on oil rigs or design machine parts (again not all women, yes I know many women do want to do those things just not near as many as men) do we really want to be calling foul constantly and trying to change that by insisting there be 50/50 representation in every single profession or art?


Becca's answered these points already but seeing as I'm the one being quoted I'll add my own comments.

As Becca pointed out, nobody is calling for 50/50, in fact my post might even be (mis)interpreted as tacit approval of gender disparity seeing as I suggested the men:women ratio might be 6:1 and didn't say it should improve! The point isn't equality of numbers, it's equality of opportunity. Actually I'm OK with the idea that biological differences between men and women are relevant to overall trends in things like career choice, but there are so many complicating cultural and social factors in the music world that I seriously doubt that biology is anywhere close to being the main contributor. There's plenty of food for thought in this article in which Sarah Kirkland Snider describes her experiences as a female composer.

I'm having trouble finding statistics about the actual ratio of women to men among composers today. There are numbers for works performed by orchestras, but orchestral music is just a (small?) part of composition. The 1:6 ratio I mentioned above is actually about what I find in my own music collection.

I own a fascinating book called "The Year in American Music 1948". One of its sections is a list of "composers whose works had first performances, publication, or awards" between June 1947 to May 1948. Of the 178 composers listed, 7 are women - a ratio of about 1:24.

Whatever the ratio is now, it's a hell of a lot better than that. Unless you think that all societal and institutional barriers to women becoming composers have now been eliminated, there's no reason to believe the ratio won't be further improved 70 years from now.

Those 7 lucky women, by the way, were:
Marion Bauer (1882-1955)
Gena Branscombe (1881-1977)
Radie Britain (1899-1994)
Dorothy Forrest Cadzow (1916-2001)
Mabel Daniels (1878-1971)
Miriam Gideon (1906-1996)
Mary Howe (1882-1964)

I'd only heard of Bauer before, but a quick glance at Arkivmusic reveals that recordings of music by all but Britain and Cadzow are available.


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## Jacck

In hard sciences like top research in mathematics or physics (string theory etc), the ratio male/female is even more dramatic than in music. I will leave the explanation of that to the various gender studies and similar junk sciences 
It could be biology, it could be that such a career demands a lot of single pointedly concentrated effort while disregarding everything else (such as family), it could be sociological or cultural factors.


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## Guest

Or it could be sexism...


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## Guest

Sofia Gubaidulina
Triple Concerto for Violin, Cello and Bayan


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## Jacck

Tulse said:


> Or it could be sexism...


that belongs under the "sociological or cultural factors"


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## Nereffid

Johnnie Burgess said:


> Classical music should be one area where this should not matter because the composer does not perform the music but someone else does. And I buy music that I like to listen to and I am not concerned with genders.


Yeah, when you're listening to a piece of music the composer's gender doesn't matter. Generally speaking, people don't want to listen to a female composer just because she's a woman, they want to listen to her because she's a good composer.

So why should a listener care about gender disparity among composers? It's because societal/institutional barriers that prevent women from becoming composers _are preventing the appearance of good composers_. Expand the pool from which you draw composers, and you'll increase the number of good ones.

Think of it this way. Let's imagine a world where it turns out that all the composers whose music gets played have surnames that begin with only 13 letters. There are no composers whose names begin with any of the other 13. Everyone might agree that surname is irrelevant to how the music sounds, so wouldn't we start to wonder why those 13 letters are being ignored? We can allow (by analogy to possible underlying biological differences between men and women) that certain letters are far less common at the start of surnames, but we'd have to suspect that 13 is much too high, and surely we'd also wonder just how much good music we must be missing out on by those composers from that half of the alphabet. Try compiling a list of the 100 greatest composers, or your own 100 favourite, then remove composers from the list until you only have surnames beginning with your choice of 13 letters, and now reflect on how much good music you've just been deprived of.


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## Guest

Do women composers make the same music as men, or is there a difference between the sexes?

In film, there are a lot more female directors than there were forty or fifty years ago. It is not just the case of there being more good films, but there is also a broader range of perspectives, ie women can make films that men are not able to make.

Is this true with music too?


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## Guest

Kaija Saariaho
Circle Map


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## Jacck

Tulse said:


> ...women can make films that men are not able to make....


isn't this sexism?


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## Guest

Stop it now :lol:


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## joen_cph

On a broader historical scale, it would be interesting to know more about ancient or generally non-Western musical cultures with a large represetation of female musicians/singers, etc. 

It would interesting to know the status of these female musicians and their art / composing - whether they were just a part of the 'decoration' in a patriarchal court life, or more than that. 

As regards tribal societies, there are no doubt cases where they have much more status and independence.

Googling "female musicians" and 'Ancient Egypt', the Minoan culture, or say just 'Ancient India' will produce a good deal of fine, original fresco scenes.


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## Guest

In the east they tended to be courtesans.


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## joen_cph

Yes, but some exceptions are known at least (random search):

https://books.google.dk/books?id=iQ...onepage&q=matriarchy female musicians&f=false

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cai_Yan

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swarnakumari_Devi


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## Blancrocher

joen_cph said:


> On a broader historical scale, it would be interesting to know more about ancient or generally non-Western musical cultures with a large represetation of female musicians/singers, etc.
> 
> It would interesting to know the status of these female musicians and their art / composing - whether they were just a part of the 'decoration' in a patriarchal court life, or more than that.


Such an investigation would probably do well to include sociological and ethnographic analysis of mores and practices surrounding pregnancy and child-rearing. Speaking broadly, the rhythms of reproduction can disturb any kind of career, musical or otherwise.

Even today, when there are few formal sexist obstacles to the profession of composing, women are disproportionately affected by the attendant responsibilities of raising children. Many women have to face difficult choices in their mid-30s. (As an interesting aside, though, studies have suggested that women whose careers have been adversely affected because of managing a family tend to be correspondingly and even disproportionately productive in later years, probably as a result of necessarily improved time-management skills as well as a sense of making up for lost time-though that is seldom reflected in the structure of professions.)

I'd be interested in reflections by contemporary composers (female and male) about the ways in which the profession of composing-which, among other things, generally requires a great deal of travel-conflicts with other "human" imperatives.


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## Genoveva

Nereffid said:


> So why should a listener care about gender disparity among composers? It's because societal/institutional barriers that prevent women from becoming composers _are preventing the appearance of good composers_. Expand the pool from which you draw composers, and you'll increase the number of good ones.


You might be right and I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you. There clearly was a lot of discrimination against women composers in the past (with some time periods being far worse than others), that caused a considerable disparity in the respective musical outputs of men and women.

But this might not be the whole story. It's possible that an additional factor might have been the simple operation of _comparative advantage _between the sexes. By this I mean that, even if it is assumed that men and women have always been equally good at composing music (or rather equally capable of composing good music), it's possible that men had a comparative advantage vis-à-vis women in composing, whilst the comparative advantage of women resided in other types of activity. If so, this would account for the observance of a higher output of music by male composers than by women.

Therefore, it's possible that by simply "expanding the pool from which you draw composers" may not necessarily "increase the number of good ones", if by this is meant the creation of a more equal number of training places/job places for women. The extra places might not be required insofar that women are better off pursuing other activities that more closely match their comparative advantage(s). I'm only stating possibilities here, not actual facts.


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## Phil loves classical

Crawford Seeger is my favourite female composer. She was a pioneer with disonnant counterpoint in earlier 20th century, so it is nice to see a female composer actually leading a new direction in music, rather than only following older ones led my men. Alla Pavlova for melodic tonal music, Gubaidulina for the atonal music are other favourites.


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## Guest

Phil loves classical said:


> Crawford Seeger is my favourite female composer. She was a pioneer with disonnant counterpoint in earlier 20th century, so it is nice to see a female composer actually leading a new direction in music, rather than only following older ones led my men. Alla Pavlova for melodic tonal music, Gubaidulina for the atonal music are other favourites.


Seeger and Pavlova: any particular pieces for a newbie? (I typed "newdie" then....childish snort  )


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## Phil loves classical

dogen said:


> Seeger and Pavlova: any particular pieces for a newbie? (I typed "newdie" then....childish snort  )


I have this disc from pavlova. She was influenced by Tchaikovsky. It Neo-Romantic music, that I found pretty moving.

https://www.discogs.com/Alla-Pavlov...der-Vedernikov-Symphony-No-1-/release/1914950

This was Seeger's most influential work


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## joen_cph

Crawford-Seeger´s _String Quartet_ (modern, but fascinatingly condensed); piano works such as the_ 9 Preludes_ and the_ Piano Study in Mixed Accents_

(the recordings vary a lot in expressing the pieces, so they should be sampled before buying anything)


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## Judith

The only one I'm familiar with is Clara Schumann. Don't really know any more!


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## Guest

Judith said:


> The only one I'm familiar with is Clara Schumann. Don't really know any more!


That's about as many as me. Or it was, until I started this thread.


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## Manxfeeder

dogen said:


> "This video is not available"


Oops. Oh, well, Google "Hilos."


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## Alfacharger

I would like to mention Maria Newman. You could say that she has music in her blood. Daughter of Alfred Newman, sister to David and Thomas Newman, niece to Lionel Newman and cousin of Randy Newman she has a very romantic style. I love her brief Viola Concerto.






The Pied Pipers Lament


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## Guest

dogen said:


> *Hopefully *there will come a day when it *would seem odd *to to be talking about female composers as a category. *Until then*, here is a thread to promote and celebrate the music of female composers. I confess I am aware of only a few, so I shall certainly be hoping to investigate names that are new to me.
> 
> :tiphat:


Ah, so muuch joy to be had from such a short post.

"Hopefully" - Ach! Away with your uncertainty: there _will _come a day!
"Would seem"?? - "will seem", if you please.
"Until then" - could this be the thread that outlives all the others?

As for "odd" let's see what Simon says...



Simon Moon said:


> I already think it is odd talking about female composers as a category.


OK. Then, based on dogen's conditional future having arrived, this thread should stop now, I guess. 

But it's worth probing a little further. I think I know what dogen means, and maybe I know what Simon means, but I'm not sure. Would you tell us more?


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## Guest

Nereffid said:


> The point isn't equality of numbers, it's equality of opportunity.


Well, yes and no. It certainly isn't about numbers at all - yet. That is to say, unless we think we should inhabit a world where the occurrence of gender (hence the slightly inaccurate 50:50) must determine as ideal, the number of composers, street cleaners, second-hand car salesmen, it isn't about numbers. We know we're already having a hard time taking a non-biased look at the idea of biological differences that might instead determine that the ideal proportion is actually 60:40 in favour of women being violinists, but 30:70 for tuba-ists...

No, I'm more interested in that word "opportunity" and what it represents. Our opportunities to be something, do anything, are shaped before we've even been born. What are parents are, socially and economically, is the most significant determinant of how well we succeed at school and clearly, that can have a significant impact on our opportunity to study an instrument and succeed in so doing.

So, that's before the gender of a child can make any difference (to the outside world at any rate) - and when the child does arrive, gender begins it's [I know, should be 'its' but if I change it now, it'll make a liar of dogen] work.

I was listening to Chi Chi Nwanoku on Desert Island Discs today - black, and a woman. Here's a taste of what "we learned".

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/art...ed-from-chi-chi-nwanoku-s-desert-island-discs


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## Guest

"gender begins it's work"?? - "gender begins its work", if you please. 

What more would you like me to tell?


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## Guest

dogen said:


> "gender begins it's work"?? - "gender begins its work", if you please.
> 
> What more would you like me to tell?


I would impersonate Homer and say, "D'oh!", but perhaps it should be "Doh!"


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## Bluecrab

Room2201974 said:


> How about Ellen Taaffe Zwilich, the first woman to win the Pulitzer Prize for Music?


Yes. I thought about editing my earlier post to include a mention of her. She has composed some very nice music.


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## Sloe

I like Andra Tarrodi´s first and second string quartets:


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## Genoveva

It's very easy to suggest that the solution to the problem about the relative paucity of female composers is simply to improve their" equality of opportunity". But there are several practical difficulties in implementing a package of measures that would command universal agreement.

For a start it's not straightforward to measure whether or not "equality of opportunity" exists or how far it departs from some acceptable norm. There is no precise definition of this term. It could just mean the absence of discrimination in training programmes and job selection. I agree with Macleod that it's more likely to be a deep-seated problem involving matters relating to family wealth. Big differences here involve wealthier parents being able to provide access to better schools, health care, nutrition, private tuition etc, and through these factors a better chance for children to succeed in their favoured occupation.

Following on from the above, the set of suitable measures to deal with any perceived inequality of opportunity could range from minor tinkering with admission rules of music schools, the size of remuneration packages, all the way up to full-scale government intervention on inheritance tax, and heaven knows what else possibly beyond that. The problem is that there are widely divergent views on the efficacy of these various policies.

Depending on their nature, some measures to improve classical music opportunities for females could have unforeseen adverse effects. With some measures that may appear to be quite sensible ones, it's still possible that we could finish up in a worse state than before any action was taken. This is based on the notion that , if a system is known to have a number of varying defects which cause it to operate with less than with full efficiency, then any set of measures aimed at dealing only with some of the perceived problem areas (even the worst ones), could, in fact, make matters worse than doing nothing at all. Unless a full remedial package of measures is implemented covering all defects, the outcome of intervention is otherwise uncertain.

I would conclude that, while it's sensible in principle to improve equality of opportunity, it's not as simple a matter as some might consider to come up with a set of policies that will achieve guaranteed success. Some experimentation will be required. Assuming that there is insufficient equality right now, and that a better degree of equality can be achieved in future, there should be no further tinkering with the aim of achieving " equality of outcome", as some might be tempted to consider to be the ultimate desirable aim. This could end in real disaster, as it would entail flying in the face of the outcome based on innate ability and the exercise of comparative advantage.


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## Guest

No-one is arguing for equality of outcome.


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## Guest

Tulse said:


> No-one is arguing for equality of outcome.


I think I agree, but what would be a suitable measure of the success of equality of opportunity?


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## Genoveva

Tulse said:


> No-one is arguing for equality of outcome.


Not explicitly in this thread, although I've spotted one or two posts which raised queries about whether or not much change can seriously be expected in the future in regard to the percentage of female conductors and female composers, despite the measures taken so far to improve opportunities.

Given both the uncertainty and possible perverse results of the effectiveness of partial measures to deal with problems that may be due to far more deep-rooted causes, it is not inconceibable that a more interventionist approach might be advanced by some commentators that involve more direct-acting measures to create what they perceive to be fairer outcomes.


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## Guest

I hope this thread can generally remain a place to promote and celebrate the music of female composers.

Of course I expected reflection upon the "issue" so (rather counteracting my declared hope for this thread) here are two articles pertaining to said issue:

https://www.theguardian.com/music/musicblog/2015/mar/05/women-composers-genius-radio-3-international-womens-day

https://www.theguardian.com/music/2015/feb/28/why-male-domination-of-classical-music-might-end


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## Room2201974

Genoveva said:


> Given both the uncertainty and possible perverse results of the effectiveness of partial measures to deal with problems that may be due to far more deep-rooted causes, it is not inconceibable that a more interventionist approach might be advanced by some commentators that involve more direct-acting measures to create what they perceive to be fairer outcomes.


 Or.....

"Be the change you want to see in the world."


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## Pat Fairlea

I'm a little surprised that no-one has mentioned Elizabeth Maconchy yet:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elizabeth_Maconchy

And her daughter, Nicola LeFanu, has also written some interesting pieces.






Or judith Weir?

Or the lovely Germaine Taillefaire?





[And I defend my casual mention of her as 'lovely' on the grounds of factual accuracy]


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## Nereffid

Genoveva said:


> It's very easy to suggest that the solution to the problem about the relative paucity of female composers is simply to improve their" equality of opportunity". But there are several practical difficulties in implementing a package of measures that would command universal agreement.
> 
> For a start it's not straightforward to measure whether or not "equality of opportunity" exists or how far it departs from some acceptable norm. There is no precise definition of this term. It could just mean the absence of discrimination in training programmes and job selection. I agree with Macleod that it's more likely to be a deep-seated problem involving matters relating to family wealth. Big differences here involve wealthier parents being able to provide access to better schools, health care, nutrition, private tuition etc, and through these factors a better chance for children to succeed in their favoured occupation.
> 
> Following on from the above, the set of suitable measures to deal with any perceived inequality of opportunity could range from minor tinkering with admission rules of music schools, the size of remuneration packages, all the way up to full-scale government intervention on inheritance tax, and heaven knows what else possibly beyond that. The problem is that there are widely divergent views on the efficacy of these various policies.


Although I agree with Macleod about how inequalities can manifest themselves on a wider scale, I really was only talking about gender, and all I really had in mind was "minor tinkering" anyway. Not of admission rules but of attitudes. The example I gave initially was of looking at one's own music collection and wondering whether there was a relative paucity of women composers there. But if we're talking about changing the system then a more relevant example would be orchestras or other music organisations commissioning or performing new works: they don't need to have a policy for a gender quota, but they should be keeping an eye on statistics to make sure that women aren't clearly underrepresented.

I previously mentioned an article by Sarah Kirkland Snider about her experiences; here it is again.


Snider said:


> Early on, I discovered that there were aspects of the mentoring process with our male teachers that female students couldn't fully access or participate in-one-on-one beers after a lesson, weekend gardening/composition lessons, tennis/composition lessons, invitations to visit at a teacher's summer home-due, presumably, to fraught gender dynamics or fear of misperceived intent.


or


Snider said:


> Several teachers called my music "feminine," a word whose meaning varied by context and instructor. One of these teachers raised this point as a matter of genuine, solemn care and concern, sharing with me his belief that the handful of 20th-century female composers who had found success had done so because they wrote "masculine" music. The way I set a Gertrude Stein text, he said, was overly brooding, emotional-in short, too feminized. "Ruth Crawford Seeger, Sofia Gubaidulina, Joan Tower, Tania León, Augusta Read Thomas…it's pretty masculine music," he told me. I asked what he meant by "masculine," and what he thought I should take from his observation. "I don't know," he replied, "I'm not saying it's fair or right. I just think you might want to think about it. The women who've busted down the doors aren't necessarily the ones who would have been successful at any other point in history. They're the ones whose vision and skill best matched the fashion of their time, and the 20th century has been a very macho-intellectual time."





Genoveva said:


> Depending on their nature, some measures to improve classical music opportunities for females could have unforeseen adverse effects.


Obviously if they're unforeseen then I guess I can't ask you what you think they might be. The only one I can think of is dogs and cats living together, but I'm sure there must be others...


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## Nereffid

MacLeod said:


> I think I agree, but what would be a suitable measure of the success of equality of opportunity?


To me at least, "equality of outcome" means that the gender ratio among composers should be the same as the gender ratio in the overall population. In that sense, equality of outcome would be a suitably objective measure of equality of opportunity.
It may be the case that men are, regardless of social factors, just inherently more likely than women to want to become composers (It _may_ be... I suspect that social factors cut very deeply), in which case that measure wouldn't be much help.
One way of measuring the success of equality of opportunity is by comparing gender ratios at various stages along the way - in elective music education at second level, third-level applications, third-level admissions, third-level graduations, post-graduate success... An abrupt drop at one stage or a gradual trend in one direction would suggest the equality of opportunity isn't there.

Or - and this is going to sound really misogynist if you interpret it incorrectly! - a sign that women are experiencing equality of opportunity is _if they stop complaining about experiencing inequality_.


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## Nereffid

dogen said:


> I hope this thread can generally remain a place to promote and celebrate the music of female composers.


Point taken. I'll reserve my rants for elsewhere! :tiphat:



Room2201974 said:


> How about Ellen Taaffe Zwilich, the first woman to win the Pulitzer Prize for Music?


Here's a list of all the female Pulitzer winners:
1983: Ellen Zwilich, Three Movements for Orchestra
1991: Shulamit Ran, Symphony
1999: Melinda Wagner, Concerto for Flute, Strings, and Percussion
2010: Jennifer Higdon, Violin Concerto
2013: Caroline Shaw, Partita for 8 Voices
2015: Julia Wolfe, Anthracite Fields
2017: Du Yun, Angel's Bone


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## Jacck

These are tiresome discussions. Equality of opportunity has been here since 100 years. No one is preventing women in becoming composers and composing music. And if they really WANT to become composers and compose, they can do so freely. The feminists talk about some plot by the misogynist patriarchal society to supress women to explain the observed disproportion and suggest policies to implement gender quotas etc. This is the wrong way. Talentless dumb women become gender activists and fight to correct some alledged wrong that is being perpetrated on them. If, instead of the constant complaining, they actually started doing something productive (for example compose music), it would benefit the society better. Again, the equality of opportunity has been here for a hundred years, at least in the west. Developing countries and different cultures are a different matter. There, the women are _actually _oppressed.


----------



## Guest

Jacck said:


> These are tiresome discussions.


That's ok - we can all stop having tiresome discussions in this thread. As dogen has reasonaly pointed out, the thread is about something else really, and it was only because of the suggestion that there shouldn't be a 'womens' genre that the discussion has been somewhat diverted.

I'll stop (and see if there's a thread on equality that can be resurrected instead).


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## Jacck

MacLeod said:


> That's ok - we can all stop having tiresome discussions in this thread. As dogen has reasonaly pointed out, the thread is about something else really, and it was only because of the suggestion that there shouldn't be a 'womens' genre that the discussion has been somewhat diverted.


I think that it is a good idea to have a thread to promote female composers. There are/were some talented women composers that deserve being promoted. Just as there were some really talented female mathematicians/physicists (such as Emmy Noether, whom even Einstein greatly respected). I would also promote literature written by women. It is good to fight to against gender stereotypes.

But I am tired by this feminist and SJW BS. These discussions have been going on for years. One heard all the arguments already a hundred times. The feminism and social justice warriors have gone out of proportion in the west and are actually counterproductive and frankly obnoxious. Now you are required to have people of color or different sexual orientation in every movie to represent minorities etc. But again, this is not the place 

I am in no way misogynist or homophobic. I have no problem enjoying the music of Tchaikovski knowing that he was gay. I can appreciate good music written by women. I just don't like the activism of some of these people.


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## Genoveva

MacLeod said:


> That's ok - we can all stop having tiresome discussions in this thread. As dogen has reasonaly pointed out, the thread is about something else really, and it was only because of the suggestion that there shouldn't be a 'womens' genre that the discussion has been somewhat diverted.
> 
> I'll stop (and see if there's a thread on equality that can be resurrected instead).


Out of respect for dogen's perfectly reasonable request, I'll stop too. I would only like to say that I have difficulty understanding some of the most recent posts, and would be happy to join a suitable resurrected thread if you can find one.


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## Chromatose

Nereffid said:


> To me at least, "equality of outcome" means that the gender ratio among composers should be the same as the gender ratio in the overall population. In that sense, equality of outcome would be a suitably objective measure of equality of opportunity.
> It may be the case that men are, regardless of social factors, just inherently more likely than women to want to become composers (It _may_ be... I suspect that social factors cut very deeply), in which case that measure wouldn't be much help.
> One way of measuring the success of equality of opportunity is by comparing gender ratios at various stages along the way - in elective music education at second level, third-level applications, third-level admissions, third-level graduations, post-graduate success... An abrupt drop at one stage or a gradual trend in one direction would suggest the equality of opportunity isn't there.
> 
> Or - and this is going to sound really misogynist if you interpret it incorrectly! - a sign that women are experiencing equality of opportunity is _if they stop complaining about experiencing inequality_.


Equality of outcome is not something that will ever truly take hold in society, it's been proven over and over that human beings sort themselves out into hierarchical structures just primates and most other mammals for that instance. Not to mention there are way to many variables to take into account for absolute equality of outcome, and who decides on what the limits of each variable are. Equality of opportunity is great and even ideal but equality of outcome is a completely untenable idea.


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## Becca

Jacck said:


> These are tiresome discussions. Equality of opportunity has been here since 100 years. No one is preventing women in becoming composers and composing music. And if they really WANT to become composers and compose, they can do so freely. The feminists talk about some plot by the misogynist patriarchal society to supress women to explain the observed disproportion and suggest policies to implement gender quotas etc. This is the wrong way. Talentless dumb women become gender activists and fight to correct some alledged wrong that is being perpetrated on them. If, instead of the constant complaining, they actually started doing something productive (for example compose music), it would benefit the society better. Again, the equality of opportunity has been here for a hundred years, at least in the west. Developing countries and different cultures are a different matter. There, the women are _actually _oppressed.


And there in one paragraph, we see a synopsis of what the problem is really about.


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## Guest

Jacck said:


> These are tiresome discussions. Equality of opportunity has been here since 100 years. No one is preventing women in becoming composers and composing music. And if they really WANT to become composers and compose, they can do so freely. The feminists talk about some plot by the misogynist patriarchal society to supress women to explain the observed disproportion and suggest policies to implement gender quotas etc. This is the wrong way. *Talentless dumb women become gender activists* and fight to correct some alledged wrong that is being perpetrated on them. If, instead of the constant complaining, they actually started doing something productive (for example compose music), it would benefit the society better. Again, the equality of opportunity has been here for a hundred years, at least in the west. Developing countries and different cultures are a different matter. There, the women are _actually _oppressed.


I'm a talentless dumb man and I demand the right to become a gender activist.

Here is an excellent work from Gubaidulina.


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## insomniclassicac

I detect no compromise in artistry when listening to and studying the works of the great female composers vs. their more-renowned male counterparts. For the connoisseur unspoilt by foolish preconceived notions, there is no shortage of outstanding music penned by women composers to be found in print, if not on record.

Besides the great many already cited in this thread, here are just a single handful of examples who number among my favorites (and, as I am partial to Romantic and post-Romantic works, they all derive from these eras): 

*Mélanie Bonis* - Stubborn and willful from a young age, Mélanie (typically abbreviated to "Mel" in order to obscure her gender) overcame parental objections to teach herself music and land herself a Conservatory classroom seat next to the likes of Debussy, Chausson, and Pierné. From there, she went on to pen more than 300 compositions, despite further family interference and societal constrictions which led to a spate of personal tragedies. To date, only a relative few of her oeuvre has been commercially recorded.
http://www.mel-bonis.com/melboanglais.htm

Her first _Piano Quartet in B-flat Major_, Op. 69, is a sterling example of her gifts for haunting melody, harmonic invention, and robust technique. The work is known to have gob-smacked the resolutely-sexist Saint-Saëns at its 1905 premiere.






--------------

*Dora Pejačević* - Arguably the most obscure composer in proportion to talent with whom I am familiar--this woman of noble status could seemingly compose brilliantly in whatever genre she tackled! Leading a relatively-independent and lonely life, Pejačević harbored in her isolation a genius for compositional structure, catchy melody, forward momentum, and lush orchestration. If her harmonic ideas were typically about 20 years behind that of the brightest lights in Europe's most cosmopolitan centers at the time, I think she can be forgiven for being limited by her title to merely the best in talent cultivation her remote country of origin, Croatia, had to offer. (Tragically, just as she was starting to expand her harmonic language, she died in childbirth at the very young ago of 37.)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dora_Peja%C4%8Devi%C4%87

I would personally put her prodigious _Symphony in F-sharp Minor_, Op. 41, up against almost any other post-Romantic specimen of its genre written during the first couple of decades of the 20th-century.






In a bounty of riches, CPO has also released her _Piano Concerto in G Minor, Phantasie concertante in D Minor, Piano Quintet in B Minor, Piano Trio in C Major, String Quartet in C major, Cello Sonata in E minor,_ violin sonatas, piano sonatas, and various other masterworks on disc.

--------------

*Lili Boulanger* - A prodigy of stunning talent, Lili was sitting in on her storied-sister's Paris Conservatoire classes before she was five years of age. Astounding everyone but herself by winning the coveted Prix de Rome while still a teenager for her still-impressive cantata _Faust et Hélène_, Lili distinguished herself as one of Europe's top-most talents during her short life. Lamentably dying at the tender age of 24 from illness (her physical constitution had never been robust), Lili nonetheless produced several sacred and orchestral works that remain among the finest ever composed in their respective genres--three psalm settings, 24, 129, and 130, respectively; a "Buddhist prayer", _Vieille prière bouddhique_; a haunting _Pie Jesu_; and the symphonic poems _D'un soir triste_ and _D'un matin de printemps_. 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lili_Boulanger

Perhaps her most resonant masterpiece, the Psalm 130: _"Du fond de l'abime"_ (_"Out of the depths"_, or _De Profundis_), completed when she was only 22, is a miracle of precocious profundity, supreme motivic control, and daring harmonic invention.






--------------

*Lūcija Garūta* - Known as the "Female Rachmaninov" to Russian audiences in her day for her towering technique at the keyboard, this sadly-neglected Latvian was every bit as gifted in the realm of composition. Studying under Jāzeps Vītols, Latvia's most-esteemed musical pioneer, Garūta would make her biggest splash with her moving wartime cantata, _Dievs, Tava zeme deg!_ (_God, your land is burning!_). Frustratingly, little else of her music has been heard outside of Europe, even though she has a great many orchestral and solo piano works that cry out for export.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L%C5%ABcija_Gar%C5%ABta

Unfortunately, to date, I count but a single release to disc of her music anywhere; and that, only this past October on the label LMIC/SKANI of a handful of her piano works. Auspiciously, among the pieces recorded is her Piano Concerto in in F-sharp minor, which is a sweeping, powerful work demonstrating a virtuosic grasp of keyboard technique and rich orchestral sonority.






--------------

*Louise Héritte-Viardot* - Daughter of the illustrious singer, composer, and pedagogue, Pauline Viardot-Garcia, Héritte-Viardot's legacy suffers badly from the same fate that befell countless other women composers before and since--loss of nearly her entire oeuvre. From a career that produced several symphonies, concertos, chamber and piano works, little more than a trio of piano quartets, a sonata for cello and piano, a few cantatas, a single one-act comic opera (_Lindoro_), and a handful of songs, remain. What has persisted, though, more than impresses, with ingenuity and memorable themes in abundance.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louise_H%C3%A9ritte-Viardot

I'm particularly struck by her piano quartets in A Major and D Minor, respectively, which sport an authority and inventiveness in the very best fin de siècle tradition. Unfortunately, neither work (nor any but a few of her songs) is up at YouTube to preview, and the single CD release available is from a German label in scant supply in North America.


----------



## Tallisman

I don't have favourite female composers, because I don't have favourite male composers. The absurdity of the idea soon becomes apparent. This isn't tennis.


----------



## Tallisman

Genoveva said:


> Given both the uncertainty and possible perverse results of the effectiveness of partial measures to deal with problems that may be due to far more deep-rooted causes, it is not inconceibable that a more interventionist approach might be advanced by some commentators that involve more direct-acting measures to create what they perceive to be fairer outcomes.


Are you by any chance a professor of critical theory? That paragraph gave me a flashback of trying to decipher French philosophers... Oh god... make it stop...


----------



## Larkenfield

I believe women composers can perhaps best be served by simply posting works that others deem worthy. I've been taken by surprise by the high quality of what I've heard so far, and it's possible others might feel the same. That's the beauty of today: there's nothing to stand in the way of their works being heard regardless of the gender issues that have been talked to death over the years. Women obviously feel they have something to say despite the prejudice against them, and their music has often survived to be enjoyed.


----------



## Guest

Larkenfield said:


> I believe women composers can best be supported by simply posting works that people deem worthy. I've been taken by surprise by the high quality of what I've heard so far, and it's possible others might likely feel the same. That's the beauty of today: there's nothing to stand in the way of these works being heard today regardless of the gender issues that have been talked to death over the years. Women obviously feel they have something to say through in music regardless of the prejudice against them that they have been able to overcome in a number of instances-their music has survived to be enjoyed.


This thread is a great resource to dip into. I intend the make 2019 the year to focus on female composers (now I've got all my Jonathan Harvey CDs!)


----------



## Nereffid

I just came across the "Is bagpipe considered classical?" thread, which reminded me of _Lad_, by Julia Wolfe. For 9 bagpipes!

It's the first 2 tracks on the album "Dark Full Ride", which you can hear here: https://juliawolfemusic.bandcamp.com/album/dark-full-ride (In this recording, Matthew Welch uses multitracking).


----------



## Becca

Two more for the list...

Missy Mazzoli
Laura Kaminsky


----------



## Jacck

Elfrida Andrée - Organ Symphony No.2 in E-flat major for organ and brass (1892)


----------



## Jacck

Amanda Röntgen-Maier - Violin Concerto in D-minor (1876)


----------



## Jacck

Luise Adolpha Le Beau - Piano Concerto in D-minor, Op.37


----------



## LezLee

I'd like to suggest the wonderful Errollyn Wallen, a British composer who writes in many different genres - an opera, a ballet, chamber music, songs etc. See her Wiki entry for more background. Unfortunately there's hardly anything on YouTube.

Here's her lovely song 'Daedalus' with the Brodsky quartet


----------



## Nereffid

Has Anna Clyne been mentioned?


----------



## CnC Bartok

And has Vitezslava Kaprálová been mentioned??






Like Boulanger, died far far far too young....


----------



## Guest

Nereffid said:


> Has Anna Clyne been mentioned?


She has now :tiphat:


----------



## Jacck

Ruth Gipps "Symphony No.2"




not bad at all


----------



## Jacck

Nina Makarova Symphony in D minor 1938 ; rev 1962


----------



## Guest

Julia Wolfe (recommended upthread)
Arsenal of Democracy


----------



## Guest

Bacewicz (rec upstream)
String Quartet no.4


----------



## Nereffid

Found on Twitter just now, from someone called Jess Griggs:



> When the radio station you work at says it's not possible to program an entire day of women composers. And you say hold my beer, and create a 24 hour playlist of 81 #female #composers.


She also adds:


> Concentrated on the Baroque to early-20th because that is what has been deemed 'programmable' by the organization.


----------



## Guest

Excellent mega playlist, Nereffid!


----------



## LezLee

Just discovered Australian composer Peggy Granville-Hicks. Excellent!

Etruscan Concerto


----------



## Nereffid

dogen said:


> Excellent mega playlist, Nereffid!


So a woman puts in the effort, and I get the praise! :tiphat:


----------



## Guest

Now don't be difficult.


----------



## kyjo

My music history teacher played excerpts from Libby Larsen's Symphony no. 1 _Water Music_ and _Deep Summer Music_ (for orchestra) in class today and I was very impressed. Tonal, colorful, and life-enhancing music. I must investigate her music more thoroughly!


----------



## Kevin Pearson




----------



## Jacck

Victoria Borisova-Ollas "The Kingdom of Silence" for orchestra


----------



## Jacck

Tatiana Volynets - Rondo for violin and piano (2012)


----------



## kyjo

Was listening to Bacewicz's imaginative and enjoyable Concerto for String Orchestra last night: 




I need to explore more of Bacewicz's music. I was also very impressed by her Piano Quintet no. 1.


----------



## Nereffid

Came across this today: Women Composers Linked to YouTube Videos of Their Music.
https://www.thinglink.com/scene/1022922291387826177
100 composers, each with a link to a YT video and further information. Most of them are living composers.


----------



## Guest

Nereffid said:


> Came across this today: Women Composers Linked to YouTube Videos of Their Music.
> https://www.thinglink.com/scene/1022922291387826177
> 100 composers, each with a link to a YT video and further information. Most of them are living composers.


Piggy-backing on the achievements of women _again_


----------



## CnC Bartok

Just been listening to Pejacevic, her Symphony. Gets a big thumbs up from me!


----------



## Kevin Pearson

For those who like or are interested in modern music, you might check out Augusta Read Thomas. She used to be a composer in residence for a number of years with the Chicago Symphony Orchestra. Much of her music has been recorded. I like her album "Music for Strings" or "Selected Works for Orchestra".


----------



## Kevin Pearson

This composer had two things working against her. African American and female and yet she composed over 300 works. Unfortunately very little is recorded. Here are two fine works. If you can hear her Violin Concertos I highly recommend them.


----------



## ZJovicic

Ljubica Marić (1909-2003), one of the best Serbian composers of either gender
This is her Byzantine Concerto, for Piano and Orchestra, composed in 1959.


----------



## Guest

I was lying when I declared upthread that I was going to make my focus for 2019 that of female composers. D'uh.

So here in 2018, I've just ordered two albums, courtesy of recommendations of composers made in this thread; namely one by Bacewicz (Concerto for String Orchestra) and one by Borisova-Ollas (Triumph of Heaven).

:tiphat:


----------



## Jacck

Dogen, check also her (Baczewicz) string quartets (if you enjoy string quartets). I bought all 7 via download, on youtube there are only 2 I guess. All 7 quartets of her are top class


----------



## Guest

Jacck said:


> Dogen, check also her (Baczewicz) string quartets (if you enjoy string quartets). I bought all 7 via download, on youtube there are only 2 I guess. All 7 quartets of her are top class


Thanks, I think that might be next up.

I do wish The Kingdom of Silence was available on CD, but the symphony sounds great, too.


----------



## CnC Bartok

A big thumbs up for the Bacewicz quartets from me too!! The Silesian Quartet on Chandos are thoroughly into this music.


----------



## Jacck

*Marcelle Germaine Tailleferre* (19 April 1892 - 7 November 1983) was a French composer and the only female member of the group of composers known as Les Six. I sampled a couple of her compositions on youtube and I like her music


----------



## Simon Moon

Kevin Pearson said:


> For those who like or are interested in modern music, you might check out Augusta Read Thomas. She used to be a composer in residence for a number of years with the Chicago Symphony Orchestra. Much of her music has been recorded. I like her album "Music for Strings" or "Selected Works for Orchestra".


I agree!

A relatively new discovery for me.

I really like EOS: Goddess of the Dawn

Nice thing is, it is on the reference Recordings label, so the quality is extremely good. Huge soundstage and precise imaging.


----------



## Jacck

Élisabeth Jacquet de La Guerre (1665 - 1729) was a French musician, harpsichordist and composer.


----------



## Spawnofsatan

Olga Neuwirth is not only one of the best female (as if it makes any difference  ) composers but composers in general.






I have complete respect and admiration for her


----------



## Capeditiea

:O well, i will be visiting this thread a bit...  *nods, for two reasons. 
1. to learn.
2. to enjoy. 




---edited to add...

the only ones i know off the bat are Gloria Coates, Lili Boulinger, Hildegard, and Alma Deutscher.

Though only one of the four i really seem to enjoy. (the other three would be listened to once in a while...)


----------



## Guest

Here's a good reason why CM listeners may not be familiar with many female composers:

*Female composers largely ignored by concert line-ups*

https://www.theguardian.com/music/2018/jun/13/female-composers-largely-ignored-by-concert-line-ups


----------



## Guest

Spawnofsatan said:


> Olga Neuwirth is not only one of the best female (as if it makes any difference  ) composers but composers in general.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I have complete respect and admiration for her


Neuwirth is an extraordinary composer. I don't know if it has been posted in this thread before, but her interview with Van Magazine is fantastic and well worth a read for those interested in her experience as a woman who composes music: Patriarchal Structures.

Also, great piece. Her opera 'Lost Highway' (after the David Lynch film, but a unique re-imagining of it) is terrific as well.


----------



## Mozart555

There are plenty of female classical composers, none that I like though unfortunately.


----------



## Guest

Mozart555 said:


> There are plenty of female classical composers, none that I like though unfortunately.


Whose music have you heard so far?


----------



## Capeditiea

I just listened to Barbera Strozzi's Cantates :3 it was nice. 

after her work, i started listening to Clara Schumann's Piano Concerto in A Minor. which ranks up there with Beethoven's second period. She is worthy of praise in my book. I still have two more works of her's to listen to... Piano Trio in G Minor and Three Romances. :3


----------



## Guest

Capeditiea said:


> I just listened to Barbera Strozzi's Cantates :3 it was nice.
> 
> after her work, i started listening to Clara Schumann's Piano Concerto in A Minor. which ranks up there with Beethoven's second period. She is worthy of praise in my book. I still have two more works of her's to listen to... Piano Trio in G Minor and Three Romances. :3


All very cool composers. Strozzi is a particular favourite of mine when it comes to vocal music. Shame about Herr Wieck, though; Clara Schumann could have gone on to have so much more success as a composer in her lifetime if she was allowed to have more contact with music publishers and other institutions to promote larger scale works.


----------



## Logos

Until relatively recently, composing music professionally was by no means an attractive prospect for either men or women. A good composer had roughly the same social prestige as any other skilled tradesman. A high status woman would never have desired to be a paid musician any more than she would have aspired to harlotry. And while a high status man might cultivate music as a courtly accomplishment, he never would have dreamed of being paid for it.

Strange how the collapse of the traditional social hierarchy has made the idea of paid work, which was until yesterday considered a disgraceful social blot for both men and women, a laudable activity. I remember a story about James G. Blaine, 19th Century Maine politician. He disapproved hardily of one of his daughters suitors because it was rumored that the young man in question used to have *gasp of horror* a job.

In reference to the Guardian article about women composers being ignored in concert programming--can't this be explained via a few other simple facts besides misogynistic bias? Namely, that the musical canon has all but entirely frozen and it's very hard for any post WW I composers, men or women, to consistently find a place in a concert program. For women, who have only been composing professionally for a short time, this means near total exclusion simply by default.


----------



## Woodduck

shirime said:


> Neuwirth is an extraordinary composer. I don't know if it has been posted in this thread before, but her interview with Van Magazine is fantastic and well worth a read for those interested in her experience as a woman who composes music: Patriarchal Structures.
> 
> Also, great piece. Her opera 'Lost Highway' (after the David Lynch film, but a unique re-imagining of it) is terrific as well.


It's remarkable that she was able to remember precisely what she heard the night she received the two little marks on her neck.


----------



## Guest

Woodduck said:


> It's remarkable that she was able to remember precisely what she heard the night she received the two little marks on her neck.


What's remarkable about her remembering something like that?


----------



## Lisztian

Unsuk Chin.


----------



## vamei

Calliope Tsoupaki






"...Calliope Tsoupaki has a distinctive idiom based on compositional elements from the late Middle Ages, Renaissance, Baroque and contemporary music. Also present are influences of music from the Middle East and her native Greece. Her objective is to express the emotional essence as simply and clearly as possible. According to many, she creates timeless music..." compose4you


----------



## classical yorkist

of interest this friday

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b0b6znwz


----------



## Guest

classical yorkist said:


> of interest this friday
> 
> https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b0b6znwz


Thanks! I'll try and catch it, or more likely, watch on iPlayer after. :tiphat:


----------



## Guest

Has Hölszky been mentioned in this thread yet? Well, of course, in the Female Composer Resource she'd be included........

But I love her music.

I was listening to this earlier today:


shirime said:


> I can't remember the first time I listened to the music of *Adriana Hölszky*, but I do remember being impressed by her vocal writing in particular; her choral music is probably the best recent choral music to my ears. The pieces on this disc feature voice, but with a colourful variety of other instruments where she is just as strong in terms of exploiting idiomatic timbres.


----------



## Nereffid

For those interested in wind band music, here's a list of pieces composed by women:

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1S1aL1m-gHsFLCJhUdaxU-xk9PC24oVjiMtNPIJ1cK0A/mobilebasic


----------



## Guest

In my contribution to that other thread where we are listing ten favourite Russian composers I included these composers



shirime said:


> Elena Rykova
> ...
> Nastasya Khrushcheva
> ...
> Anna Pospelova


----------



## janxharris

Prom 8:
The BBC National Orchestra of Wales and its Principal Conductor Thomas Søndergård explore the music of two 20th-century female composers whose early deaths cut their careers tragically short

https://www.bbc.co.uk/events/eddgfx


----------



## Guest

Thanks for the heads up.


----------



## Jacck

Zara Levina, Piano Concerto No 1 (1945)


----------



## ldiat




----------



## wkasimer

This has likely already been mentioned, but this podcast is well worth hearing:

http://stickynotespodcast.libsyn.com/women-of-notes-stories-of-women-composers-of-the-past


----------



## Iota

Yumiko Yokoi, act V

This seemed an engaging, sassy, jaunty piece. 'Fun' was mentioned elsewhere here today in connection with the Beat Furrer Piano Concerto, this certainly seems to fit that description, in a (contemporary) Poulenc sort of way.


----------



## Iota

Carola Bauckholt - Zugvögel

I also enjoyed this piece, fairly obviously avian in inspiration, with a beautifully still ending. For some reason, I couldn't help feeling that there might be a perfect painting out there to contemplate as one listens to this piece (not necessarily of birds), though my mind didn't settle on anything.


----------



## Guest

Iota said:


> Carola Bauckholt - Zugvögel
> 
> I also enjoyed this piece, fairly obviously avian in inspiration, with a beautifully still ending. For some reason, I couldn't help feeling that there might be a perfect painting out there to contemplate as one listens to this piece (not necessarily of birds), though my mind didn't settle on anything.


I was listening to this just a few days ago. Very nice stuff.


----------



## Iota

shirime said:


> I was listening to this just a few days ago. Very nice stuff.


Indeed. At first it appeared to me as if it was just going to be a bit of clever bird mimicry, but it turns into something a little more interesting I think, even though perhaps it remains earthbound for me.

Bird call in music seems fertile territory for those with the vision/ability to explore it (timbrally/rhythmically/harmonically/emotionally etc), not that I would know much about it, but the ecstasy and radiance of it in Messiaen e.g, and its expansion into wider meaning, is a pretty miraculous thing.


----------



## CnC Bartok

Vítězslava Kaprálová: Apríl Preludes, Op.13






Piano Concerto:


----------



## Kevin Pearson

Ina Boyle is well worth a listen. I especially enjoyed her symphony.


----------



## Guest

Anyone got any thoughts on Agata Zubel's work? I think she is a vocalist as well as a composer and it seems as if she has composed many cool new works featuring voice. Here are some madrigals I really like:


----------



## Larkenfield

Outstanding performance and recording of 
Amy Beach's Piano Concerto in C-sharp minor, Op. 45:




Hard for me to imagine a better one.
I do not hear gender, just outstanding talent.


----------



## meerasate

I love this symphony


----------



## Sloe

Lisztian said:


> Unsuk Chin.


I think her music is wonderful. There was a quote in another thread that she strives to make music that people will enjoy.


----------



## Guest

Franghiz Ali-Sadeh (1947), Lera Auerbach (1973), Grazyna Bacewicz* (1909-1969), Amy Beach* (1867-1944), Henriette Bosmans (1895-1952), Lili Boulanger (1893-1918), Francesca Caccini* (1587-1641), Edit Canat de Chizy (1950), Cécile Chaminade (1857-1944), Yi Chen (1953), Chaya Chernowin (1957), Unsuk Chin* (1941), Rebecca Clarke (1886-1979), Ruth Crawford-Seeger (1901-1953), Milica Djordjevic (1984), Louise Farrenc* (1804-1875), Sofia Gubaidulina* (1931), Jennifer Higdon (1962), Elisabeth Jacquet de la Guerre (1665-1729) Viteszlava Kapralova (1915-1940), Zara Levina (1906-1976), Elizabeth Maconchy (1907-1994), Marianne Martines (1744-1812), Missy Mazzoli (1980), Meredith Monk* (1942), Olga Neuwirth (1968), Pauline Oliveros (1932-2016), Kaija Saariaho* (1954), Rebecca Saunders (1967), Clara Schumann (1819-1896), Ethel Smyth (1858-1944), Barbara Strozzi* (1619-1677), Ellen Taaffe-Zwilich (1939), Dobrinka Tabakova* (1980), Germaine Tailleferre (1892-1983) Anna Thorvaldsdottir* (1977), Joan Tower (1938), Galina Ustvolskaya* (1919-2006), Hildegard von Bingen* (1098-1179), Judith Weir (1954), Julia Wolfe (1958)
The star is for great composers IMHO.


----------



## Jacck

marc bollansee said:


> Franghiz Ali-Sadeh (1947), Lera Auerbach (1973), Grazyna Bacewicz* (1909-1969), Amy Beach* (1867-1944), Henriette Bosmans (1895-1952), Lili Boulanger (1893-1918), Francesca Caccini* (1587-1641), Edit Canat de Chizy (1950), Cécile Chaminade (1857-1944), Yi Chen (1953), Chaya Chernowin (1957), Unsuk Chin* (1941), Rebecca Clarke (1886-1979), Ruth Crawford-Seeger (1901-1953), Milica Djordjevic (1984), Louise Farrenc* (1804-1875), Sofia Gubaidulina* (1931), Jennifer Higdon (1962), Elisabeth Jacquet de la Guerre (1665-1729) Viteszlava Kapralova (1915-1940), Zara Levina (1906-1976), Elizabeth Maconchy (1907-1994), Marianne Martines (1744-1812), Missy Mazzoli (1980), Meredith Monk* (1942), Olga Neuwirth (1968), Pauline Oliveros (1932-2016), Kaija Saariaho* (1954), Rebecca Saunders (1967), Clara Schumann (1819-1896), Ethel Smyth (1858-1944), Barbara Strozzi* (1619-1677), Ellen Taaffe-Zwilich (1939), Dobrinka Tabakova* (1980), Germaine Tailleferre (1892-1983) Anna Thorvaldsdottir* (1977), Joan Tower (1938), Galina Ustvolskaya* (1919-2006), Hildegard von Bingen* (1098-1179), Judith Weir (1954), Julia Wolfe (1958)
> The star is for great composers IMHO.


good list, but the absence of a star by Kaprálová or Jacquet de la Guerre shows ignorance.


----------



## Guest

Hi Jacck,
I will only accept the positive part of your comment. Apologies for making a typing mistake in Kapralova's first name; it is correctly spelled in my blogspot.
The reason I cannot give a star to Kapralova is because she only has 3 important works in her catalogue. I am sorry the French doctors misdiagnosed her illness otherwise she would no doubt have been great. The same is true for Lili Boulanger. 
I love everything I have heard by Jacquet de la Guerre. Again we do not have access to much of her work and she has strong competition from the Couperin family and Rameau. 
A few great works do not qualify for a star in my humble opinion. 
Up to you to disagree. I respect all opinions. But plse stop talking about ignorance. My blogspot is: marcbollansee.blogspot.com


----------



## Jacck

marc bollansee said:


> Hi Jacck,
> I will only accept the positive part of your comment. Apologies for making a typing mistake in Kapralova's first name; it is correctly spelled in my blogspot.
> The reason I cannot give a star to Kapralova is because she only has 3 important works in her catalogue. I am sorry the French doctors misdiagnosed her illness otherwise she would no doubt have been great. The same is true for Lili Boulanger.
> I love everything I have heard by Jacquet de la Guerre. Again we do not have access to much of her work and she has strong competition from the Couperin family and Rameau.
> A few great works do not qualify for a star in my humble opinion.
> Up to you to disagree. I respect all opinions. But plse stop talking about ignorance. My blogspot is: marcbollansee.blogspot.com


hi Marc, it was not meant seriously (that is why the smiley at the end). You are of course very knowledgable. You are right, that Kaprálová died too young, but for example her piano concerto is really lovely. And Jacquet de la Guerre composed some fantastic music. I would also add Dora Pejačević and Lūcija Garūta to your list. best, Jan


----------



## Guest

Hi Dogen, just a short post to show my appreciation for one of the most interesting threads in TC. It seems my colleagues have no ammunition at the moment. Your thread deserves to continue.
Anna Clyne is an interesting contemporary composer. Let us hear the comments.


----------



## Enthusiast

Sadly Dogen seems not to be a member any more. He was posting a lot a year or so ago. I miss him!


----------



## Guest

let us get him back into the fold; hopefully our posts will motivate him


----------



## Guest

hi enthusiast,
if dogen does not come back i will start a new thread on female composers because it is so vital to contemporary classical and also to all these fabulous female composers from the past; can you check with dogen; i respect his initiative


----------



## haydnguy

Jacck said:


> Grażyna Bacewicz: Concerto for String Orchestra (1948)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I have heard several pieces from her and all are really good


Thanks for posting this. I am starting to listen to her music now and really like this.


----------



## Ingélou

I don't know if Barbara Strozzi has been mentioned before, but I believe she's a rare talent.

Barbara Strozzi c.1619 - 1677

Here's a short taster.


----------



## Enthusiast

marc bollansee said:


> hi enthusiast,
> if dogen does not come back i will start a new thread on female composers because it is so vital to contemporary classical and also to all these fabulous female composers from the past; can you check with dogen; i respect his initiative


There is nothing I can do but his status in his posts now is "Guest" which suggests he has no membership any more. I didn't even know that you could cancel your membership. He was a regular poster for a long time.


----------



## Taggart

Ingélou's fiddle teacher playis viola with the Academy of Ancient Music. He was at a recording yesterday and they were playing something by Marie Emmanuelle Bayon Louis She was a contemporary of Mozart and lived through the French Revolution. There is nothing of hers on You Tube ... yet.


----------



## Ingélou

Dogen left last year after not posting for several months. I am sorry he decided to go. He was a Friend of mine and was very kind to me a few years back when I was worrying about my mother's dementia.

However, I don't think you have to ask permission to start another thread on a topic that's already covered on TC. It happens all the time, and in this case, a thread about 'Contemporary Female Composers' would have a new angle.

Here are some other TC threads on Female Composers from days gone by:
Women composers

Female Composers ?

Female composers

Who is the Greatest Female Composers of All-Time?

The Top Five Female Composers - A Survival Game (Round Two)

Female composers

My Response To "There's a good reason why there are no great female composers"

Why are there few women composers?

Equality in music (not only gender)


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## Art Rock

In the polls and games subforum, there is an ongoing game with 250 compositions by female composers.


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