# Dutchman, Tannhauser, Lohengrin..............



## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

Rank these early Wagner masterpieces in order of your
preference.........:tiphat:

And lets talk about them. They don't get as much attention as the others.


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## opus55 (Nov 9, 2010)

With little experience,

Dutchman, Lohengrin, Tannhauser


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

For me its Lohengrin first. A magical opera for me.

Kinda a tie for the other two for me.
Nod to Dutchman I think.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Dutchman (it's the shortest! :devil
Tannhauser
Lohengrin


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## Sloe (May 9, 2014)

A tie between Dutchman and Lohengrin
Tannhäuser comes far down.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

1. _Lohengrin_. I've alway found this to be the most difficult of Wagner's operas to identify with, dramatically. It seems much more of a fairy tale, less of a profound psychodrama, than the others. The villains are the only really interesting characters and they give the piece most of its vitality; otherwise it's just a pretty tableau. Boy meets girl, girl gets too curious (who the hell am I marrying anyway?), boy leaves girl dead on the riverbank - I think Bartok tells that story more compellingly, even if it means something a little different in _Bluebeard's Castle_. I know Lohengrin is the Lonely Artist looking to be loved for his inner self (Wagner was in an unhappy marriage to a woman who hadn't the foggiest), but he seems more archetypal than human; and Elsa too is so lacking in individuality that directors have done all sorts of atrocious things to the opera to try to make the story more "meaningful." Best just to accept it as the fairy tale it is. That said, as fairy tale music the score is about the most sheerly lovely Wagner ever wrote; the prelude alone is a divine inspiration. Well performed, _Lohengrin_ can be some enchanted evening.

2. _Der Fliegende Hollander_. This is where the real Wagner burst out like a sudden storm at sea after the calculated Meyerbeerian pastiche of _Rienzi_. The wild wind and churning waves and black sky are the very image of the wanderer himself, doomed never to find peace until he is loved unreservedly, and unlike Lohengrin he finds a woman who already knows who he is and needs to ask no questions. The music teeters back and forth between foursquareness and unprecedented inspiration, but ultimately the brew is potent and the grip tightens right to the end, an art of which Wagner remained the consummate master. The music of Vanderdecken's ghostly crew breaking into the Norwegian sailors' merrymaking is a true successor to Weber's "Wolf's Glen" in epitomizing German Romantic spookiness.

3._ Tannhauser._ Ranking this third is a purely personal thing, but I find the music of the opera very uneven, with certain parts actually rather dull. I'm thinking particularly of the song contest at the Wartburg; the subject of platonic love doesn't seem to have inspired the young Wagner any more than it did Tannhauser, and I just snooze until Elisabeth steps up to defend her randy boyfriend from all his priggish friends. Wagner seems to have agreed; not only did he transform Venus from dowdy into gorgeous for the Paris production, but planned at one point to go back and make other revisions. That never happened, and so we have what we have. Tannhauser himself remains a strong character, if fiendish to sing, with his basic inner conflict providing a good clear dramatic focus around which the other characters can revolve, and outside of that soporific song contest the opera is full of good tunes.


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## silentio (Nov 10, 2014)

Woodduck said:


> 1. _Lohengrin_. I've alway found this to be the most difficult of Wagner's operas to identify with, dramatically. It seems much more of a fairy tale, less of a profound psychodrama, than the others. The villains are the only really interesting characters and they give the piece most of its vitality; otherwise it's just a pretty tableau. Boy meets girl, girl gets too curious (who the hell am I marrying anyway?), boy leaves girl dead on the riverbank - I think Bartok tells that story more compellingly, even if it means something a little different in _Bluebeard's Castle_. I know Lohengrin is the Lonely Artist looking to be loved for his inner self (Wagner was in an unhappy marriage to a woman who hadn't the foggiest), but he seems more archetypal than human; and Elsa too is so lacking in individuality that directors have done all sorts of atrocious things to the opera to try to make the story more "meaningful." Best just to accept it as the fairy tale it is. That said, as fairy tale music the score is about the most sheerly lovely Wagner ever wrote; the prelude alone is a divine inspiration. Well performed, Lohengrin can be some enchanted evening.
> 
> 2. _Der Fliegende Hollander_. This is where the real Wagner burst out like a sudden storm at sea after the calculated Meyerbeerian pastiche of _Rienzi_. The wild wind and churning waves and black sky are the very image of the wanderer himself, doomed never to find peace until he is loved unreservedly, and unlike Lohengrin he finds a woman who already knows who he is and needs to ask no questions. The music teeters back and forth between foursquareness and unprecedented inspiration, but ultimately the brew is potent and the grip tightens right to the end, an art of which Wagner remained the consummate master. The music of Vanderdecken's ghostly crew breaking into the Norwegian sailors' merrymaking is a true successor to Weber's "Wolf's Glen" in epitomizing German Romantic spookiness.
> 
> 3._ Tannhauser._ Ranking this third is a purely personal thing, but I find the music of the opera very uneven, with certain parts actually rather dull. I'm thinking particularly of the song contest at the Wartburg; the subject of platonic love doesn't seem to have inspired the young Wagner any more than it did Tannhauser, and I just snooze until Elisabeth steps up to defend her randy boyfriend from all his priggish friends. Wagner seems to have agreed; not only did he transform Venus from dowdy into gorgeous for the Paris production, but planned at one point to go back and make other revisions. That never happened, and so we have what we have. Tannhauser himself remains a strong character, if fiendish to sing, with his basic inner conflict providing a good clear dramatic focus around which the other characters can revolve, and outside of that soporific song contest the opera is full of good tunes.


Great post, Woodduck.

Isn't Lohengrin the odd duck in Wagner's oeurve? Let's make some oversimplification here (and feel free to correct me  )
1) Der fliegende Holländer: redemption through love (RTL)
2) Tannhäuser: even more RTL ! 
3) Lohengrin: ???
4) Tristan: the idea of RTL began to fall apart
5) Die Meistersinger: subtle theme of redemption through renunciation (and art) 
7) Der Ring: RTL is impossible, the same for through power and wealth. Insights into such impossibilities can at least give a chance of being reborn and redeemed.
8) Parsifal: redemption through renunciation and compassion

Apparently it is hard to fit Lohengrin into the scheme.


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

I think all 3 are incredibly beautiful.


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## anmhe (Feb 10, 2015)

1) Lohengrin
The music puts this just slightly in first place because...
2) Der Fliegende Holländer 
Is a better story.
3) Tannhauser
The overture alone makes me want to rank this higher, but we're judging the whole work. I'm just not in as in love with this as the others.


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## MAuer (Feb 6, 2011)

1. Lohengrin. There's a reason it's often referred to as Wagner's most Italian opera. My favorite of all his operas.
2. Tannhäuser. I just prefer the music a little over the Dutchman.
3. Der fliegende Holländer. I want a recording with Jonas Kaufmann as Erik.


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## Figleaf (Jun 10, 2014)

I have this Tannhäuser on CD- Erich Leinsdorf conducting the Met orchestra and chorus, with Eyvind Laholm, Kirsten Flagstad, Herbert Janssen. I listened to it once and enjoyed it. How does it compare with other recordings, in the opinions of those of you who know the opera?


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

silentio said:


> Great post, Woodduck.
> 
> Isn't Lohengrin the odd duck in Wagner's oeurve? Let's make some oversimplification here (and feel free to correct me  )
> 1) Der fliegende Holländer: redemption through love (RTL)
> ...


I wouldn't dream of correcting you! :lol:

Of course it's all "a bit" more complicated, but I agree: _Lohengrin_'s something of an outlier. Nobody appears to crave redemption in the usual desperate Wagnerian way, and Elsa's death at the end is unlike the deaths of Wagner's other heroines, which represent, in a psychological-mythical sense, some kind fulfillment rather than mere tragedy. When Elsa dies, she simply dies, and no one achieves transfiguration or hope for a new life (unless we count Elsa's brother Gottfried, who presumably takes his position as duke, whatever a duke's role is in Brabant).

But here's where the opera does fit in: I think this is more Lohengrin's story than Elsa's. As remote and impersonal a figure he is, I see him as the Wagnerian hero in reverse: not a suffering, restless, wandering earthly man seeking a love which will raise him to divine happiness, but a lonely divine being from afar seeking a love which will grant him full humanity. That is something most of us will not so easily identify with, but I'm guessing it was quite meaningful to Wagner, the inevitably alienated and misunderstood genius, always living in a radiant realm of inspiration (the Grail) beyond the comprehension of ordinary humans, always hoping for that comprehension but never able to experience it or believe in it. Genius can never be explained to anyone; it can only be manifested in action and accepted without question. And so Lohengrin comes asking to be understood and accepted for what he is.

Lohengrin needs an Elsa more than she needs a Lohengrin; her need, indeed her very self, is virtually a projection of his hope, and her inability to grant the perfect understanding he needs is the story's real tragedy - his tragedy. Her death, in a way, doesn't matter, and is not the end of the story. The actual end is his departure, his return to the realm of spirit, of divine inspiration - of loneliness. He will go forth another day, at the call of another woman who holds out to him the possibilty of redeeming the divine into the fully human.

Wagner described the prelude to this opera as a vision of the Holy Grail being vouchsafed to humanity, gradually appearing and spreading its blessing over the world, then disappearing again. The rapturous beauty of this music is made poignant by the note of sadness in that long descending melody as it dies away. I didn't understand just how clearly the prelude related to the story of the opera until I began to see the descent and return of the Grail as a symbol of Lohengrin's own sad journey.

If the quest for redemption is a quest for wholeness, Lohengrin, as much as any Wagnerian character, seeks redemption through love.


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## DarkAngel (Aug 11, 2010)

Itullian said:


> For me its Lohengrin first. A magical opera for me.
> 
> Kinda a tie for the other two for me.
> Nod to Dutchman I think.


*
Itullian loves Lohengrin because the grail knight is son of the pure fool, his beloved Parsifal........*

I love the part of Ortud, the evil hand behind the fate of hapless Elsa who seems destined to cause herself misfortune, also like Kundry (of Parsifal) Elsa suddenly dies at the conclusion when spell is broken and swan becomes her lost brother Gottfried the new Duke of Brabant

*Perhaps Wooduck knows *why the mystical dove again appears (as in Parsifal) at the conclusion to lead Lohengrin back to Monsalvat home of the grail knights.....not usually a good omen for women characters as they seem to suddenly die around the time this dove appears (Elsa, Kundry)


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## Bellinilover (Jul 24, 2013)

The only one of the three I know -- and I haven't heard it in years -- is TANNHAUSER; I used to listen to the Solti recording as a college student. The music, the overture especially, is stirring and beautiful. They're doing DER FLIEGENDE HOLLANDER at Virginia Opera next season, and I'm planning to go. I've never encountered LOHENGRIN.

Actually, I've got a question regarding HOLLANDER for anyone who's knowledgeable: I'm looking into recordings and am considering both the Sinopoli rendition (Weikl, Studer, Domingo, etc.) and a more recent one with a lesser-known cast on the Naxos label. Has anyone here heard either of these two versions, and if so what do you think of them?


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

DarkAngel said:


> *
> Itullian loves Lohengrin because the grail knight is son of the pure fool, his beloved Parsifal........*
> 
> I love the part of Ortud, the evil hand behind the fate of hapless Elsa who seems destined to cause herself misfortune, also like Kundry (of Parsifal) Elsa suddenly dies at the conclusion when spell is broken and swan becomes her lost brother Gottfried the new Duke of Brabant
> ...


I love Ortrud too. She really makes things happen! I was listening today to the great old Bayreuth recording from 1953 with Astrid Varnay and Hermann Uhde as a fabulous pair of villains. Great performance!

Ah, that dove again. Just Wagner's symbol of holiness, I guess. Of course it comes originally from the scene of Christ's baptism in the Bible. I guess once it got finished with him it started following Grail knights around.

You thought I'd have a better explanation, didn't you?


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## DarkAngel (Aug 11, 2010)

Woodduck said:


> I love Ortrud too. She really makes things happen! I was listening today to the great old Bayreuth recording from 1953 with Astrid Varnay and Hermann Uhde as a fabulous pair of villains. Great performance!
> 
> Ah, that dove again. Just Wagner's symbol of holiness, I guess. Of course it comes originally from the scene of Christ's baptism in the Bible. I guess once it got finished with him it started following Grail knights around.
> 
> *You thought I'd have a better explanation, didn't you*?


Sometimes there is no hidden meaning, so we just take the scence for face value......:lol:

the "white dove" occurs many times during new and old testament (Noah's ark story used dove etc) and also in other religions......in general terms just represents some type of divine intervention or guidance, just strange that it appears at conclusion of Lohengrin and Parsifal right after main female characters die suddenly and mysteriously


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

DarkAngel said:


> Sometimes there is no hidden meaning, so we just take the scence for face value......:lol:
> 
> the "white dove" occurs many times during new and old testament (Noah's ark story used dove etc) and also in other religions......in general terms just represents some type of divine intervention or guidance, just strange that it appears at conclusion of Lohengrin and Parsifal right after main female characters die suddenly and mysteriously


I think Wagner did say the dove symbolized "the holy spirit," and I read somewhere in Wagner's notes for _Parsifal_ that it appeared once a year at Montsalvat. In _Parsifal_ it comes when Parsifal's mission is completed, and so symbolizes fulfillment; in _Lohengrin_ it comes when Lohengrin's mission has failed, and seems to say that that failure does not change Lohengrin's identity as avatar of the Holy Grail. As far as it's relationship to the death of Kundry and Elsa, we need to ask whether those deaths have any common meaning. Offhand I don't think the dove has any direct relationship to them at all, but simply affirms the identity of the heroes after all they've been through. Of course in _Lohengrin_ it also "replaces" the swan; there was a swan in _Parsifal_ too, and Wagner even brought back its musical motif from _Lohengrin_, suggesting that the swans may have something in common.

All Wagner's operas from _The Dutchman_ on, except for _Die Meistersinger_, end with the death of a woman; lots of operas do, and books have been written about that. The role of woman in Wagner is an immense subject, but Wagner's personal - psychological and sexual - relationship to women, and to femininity as a concept and a sensibility, is also an immense subject. I don't feel I've gone very far in exploring it, but I do believe that "woman" in relation to "man," in a psychological and symbolic sense, is at the core of Wagner's work, and that each opera explores this in a different way.


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

The dove in Christianity, Catholicism anyway, represents the Holy Spirit, the third part of the Holy Trinity, God.
Just thought I'd chime in, since it's Palm Sunday.


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## Sloe (May 9, 2014)

First Dutchman and Lohengrin.
My ancestors lived a life much like the characters in the Flying Dutchman and lived in a place much like Sandviken therefore Dutchman is my opera and I feel a certain connection to that opera. It is also full with great music that stirs up.

Lohengrin stirs up even more and gives me a huge energy kick. Full of grandiloquent music and is on top nearly all the time.
And a knight using a swan as transportation is a must see.

Tannhäuser I really don´t care for att all. I don´t like the opera it is not welcoming the music is not that beautiful and it is not inviting. It have all the weakest sides of Wagner.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Itullian said:


> The dove in Christianity, Catholicism anyway, represents the Holy Spirit, the third part of the Holy Trinity, God.
> Just thought I'd chime in, since it's Palm Sunday.


Just to say that the dove is the biblical Christian symbol of the Holy Spirit. Not just in Catholicism. The gospels tell us that when Jesus was baptised the Holy Spirit came on him in the form of a dove.


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## Figleaf (Jun 10, 2014)

Sloe said:


> First Dutchman and Lohengrin.
> My ancestors lived a life much like the characters in the Flying Dutchman and lived in a place much like Sandviken therefore Dutchman is my opera and I feel a certain connection to that opera. It is also full with great music that stirs up.
> 
> Lohengrin stirs up even more and gives me a huge energy kick. Full of grandiloquent music and is on top nearly all the time.
> ...


I liked it a lot- albeit on only one hearing. 'O du mein holder Abendstern' has to be the most beautiful melody ever written by anyone.


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)




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## Figleaf (Jun 10, 2014)

Itullian said:


>


That was absolutely beautiful. My personal favourite recordings of the aria are by Lelio Casini (just to annoy the Wagner purists), and Anton van Rooy.


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

Figleaf said:


> That was absolutely beautiful. My personal favourite recordings of the aria are by Lelio Casini (just to annoy the Wagner purists), and Anton van Rooy.


Figured you'd have some


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Figleaf said:


> That was absolutely beautiful. My personal favourite recordings of the aria are by Lelio Casini (just to annoy the Wagner purists), and Anton van Rooy.


But don't miss Joseph Schwarz - or have I pointed him out before? Never mind, here he is again. I think this is a marvel of legato singing - a virtual human cello.


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## Allanmcf (May 29, 2014)

Woodduck said:


> But don't miss Joseph Schwarz - or have I pointed him out before? Never mind, here he is again. I think this is a marvel of legato singing - a virtual human cello.


Little known but highly regarded by those who do!!


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## Allanmcf (May 29, 2014)

Incidentally, 
Tannhauser
Lohengrin
Hollander

In that order and just because!!


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

1) Dutchman 
2) Lohengrin 

I don't know about Tannhauser. I would have to put Meistersinger third. I know no others of Wagner's operas.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

My first choice would be Tannhäuser, Dutchman and Lohengrin.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Pugg said:


> My first choice would be Tannhäuser, Dutchman and Lohengrin.


What's your second choice?


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Woodduck said:


> What's your second choice?


Flying I suppose........


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## Meyerbeer Smith (Mar 25, 2016)

1. Lohengrin. My favourite Wagner, and the one that first grabbed me. Act I is great from start to finish - impressive choirs and declamations broken by Elsa's dream and the short duet with Lohengrin. Act III has its longueurs - the bedroom scene - but the Grail narrative is sublime.

2. Tannhauser. It's really a number opera in disguise; the arias and choruses are detachable. Very high level of writing, and has many of Wagner's most popular pieces: the Hymn to the evening star, Elisabeth's prayer, the pilgrims' chorus, the entry of the guests. That said, it took me a l9ng time to warm to it; I don't much like the long scene between Tannhauser and Venus in Act I, and when I first heard it, I thought the poetry recital one of the dullest things I'd ever heard. I found the Ring much more engaging! Is T less than the sum of its parts? 

3. Dutchman. This is fun. Jolly choruses, an exciting overture, a rousing scene where Daland's ship sails off.


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## Reichstag aus LICHT (Oct 25, 2010)

Lohengrin, Dutchman, Tannhäuser - in descending order. 

I consider Tannhäuser to be Wagner's weakest opera, comparatively speaking. Despite some truly wonderful set-pieces, the bits in between are a bit of a mess, and the drama doesn't exactly grip the viewer. The very fact that Wagner himself kept tinkering with Tannhäuser says a lot about it, I think.


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## mountmccabe (May 1, 2013)

1. Der fliegende Holländer
2. Lohengrin
3. Tannhäuser

I rank Holländer ahead of Siegfried and Die Meistersinger von Nürnberg. Currently I might rank Tannhäuser below Rienzi, but I need to give it another chance.


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## Reichstag aus LICHT (Oct 25, 2010)

mountmccabe said:


> I rank Holländer ahead of Siegfried and Die Meistersinger von Nürnberg


Where I come from, that's fightin' talk


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Reichstag aus LICHT said:


> Lohengrin, Dutchman, Tannhäuser - in descending order.
> 
> I consider Tannhäuser to be Wagner's weakest opera, comparatively speaking. Despite some truly wonderful set-pieces, the bits in between are a bit of a mess, and the drama doesn't exactly grip the viewer. The very fact that Wagner himself kept tinkering with Tannhäuser says a lot about it, I think.


That's my order of preference too.

Later in life he said (to Cosima, I think) "I still owe the world a Tannhauser." He talked of making further revisions, but was probably just too busy with Bayreuth business. I'm just glad we don't have to put up with the original, Dresden hausfrau Venus, but have that marvelously sensual Paris seductress to cuddle with.


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

1. Tannhäuser - One of Wagner's finest overtures, although the rest of Act 1 is somewhat of a wash. Act 2 is a masterpiece from start to finish. Act 3 is chalk full of great arias and choruses although the sum is a little less than its parts.

2. Lohengrin - The essential transition piece between Early and Mature Wagner, the music is heads and tails above the other two, this is apparent right from the sublime prelude in which Wagner gradually threads a melody from the shimmering strings. Dramatically I find it flops, especially the splurge of action abruptly bringing the opera to its conclusion. Act 2 is sublime.

3. Der fliegende Holländer - Just utterly boring aside from a few highlight arias. And the story is downright stupid. Erik is annoying, Senta is simply insane.


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## Sloe (May 9, 2014)

Couchie said:


> 3. Der fliegende Holländer - Just utterly boring aside from a few highlight arias. And the story is downright stupid. Erik is annoying, Senta is simply insane.


I think it is utterly exciting. No the story is not stupid. Yes Erik is annoying but such people need their place in opera too.
Senta is a nice and faithful girl.


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

Oh please. Senta happens to be obsessed with the Dutchman. Senta's dad happens to fall upon the Dutchman and bring him to her. Erik happens to dream the exact same thing. Erik whines, Dutchman overhears and leaves, Senta kills herself.

Dramatically, that's amateur hour. Would any esteemed author or poet ever commit to the page such nonsense? Contrast to Parsifal. Let's not kid ourselves here.


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## Sloe (May 9, 2014)

Couchie said:


> Would any esteemed author or poet ever commit to the page such nonsense?


Richard Wagner
It is Wagner´s most popular opera so obviously it have some qualities.
I don´t know why you are writing such nasty things is it really a worse story than Rigoletto were a girl sacrifices herself to save a complete jerk or Il Trovatore.


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

Sloe said:


> Richard Wagner
> It is Wagner´s most popular opera so obviously it have some qualities.
> I don´t know why you are writing such nasty things is it really a worse story than Rigoletto were a girl sacrifices herself to save a complete jerk or Il Trovatore.


And The Da Vinci Code is more popular than In Search of Lost Time. Your point?

There are only a handful of singers in the world that can perform Siegfried. Dutchman is not beyond the capabilities of most regional and school opera companies.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

Couchie said:


> 3. Der fliegende Holländer - Just utterly boring aside from a few highlight arias. And the story is downright stupid. Erik is annoying, Senta is simply insane.


Eric is suppose to be annoying. Senta is supposed to be insanely attracted to the Dutchman.


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## Sloe (May 9, 2014)

Couchie said:


> Oh please. Senta happens to be obsessed with the Dutchman. Senta's dad happens to fall upon the Dutchman and bring him to her. Erik happens to dream the exact same thing. Erik whines, Dutchman overhears and leaves, Senta kills herself.


Senta goes after the Dutchman to show that she is faithful to him and his curse is broken. 
I think it is beautiful.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

The score of _Dutchman _is superbly atmospheric. It portrays the dark sea and howling wind, the haunted Dutchman, the dreamily obsessive Senta, the sincere but clueless Erik, the bluff Daland, the sleepy young steersman, the vigorous Norwegian sailors, and the spooky Dutchman's crew with a precision and vividness that only Wagner could. Wagner had a long way to go musically, and more profound things to say later, but this opera is a strong and cohesive work of art and a good evening in the theater.


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## Reichstag aus LICHT (Oct 25, 2010)

Couchie said:


> 3. Der fliegende Holländer... the story is downright stupid. Erik is annoying, Senta is simply insane.


What's not to like?


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

If myths and fairy tales and legends and sagas and folk tales were not crazy they would be unnecessary.


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

I love Hollander.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

Itullian said:


> I love Hollander.


So do I and so did my favorite composer, Felix Mendelssohn!


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## Sloe (May 9, 2014)

Couchie said:


> And The Da Vinci Code is more popular than In Search of Lost Time. Your point?


I have never read any of these so I can´t make a judgement. My point is that it is loved by many people and things that are loved by many people especially over a very long time usually is so because it is good and not nonsense as you try to make it out to be.


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

Woodduck said:


> The score of _Dutchman _is superbly atmospheric. It portrays the dark sea and howling wind, the haunted Dutchman, the dreamily obsessive Senta, the sincere but clueless Erik, the bluff Daland, the sleepy young steersman, the vigorous Norwegian sailors, and the spooky Dutchman's crew with a precision and vividness that only Wagner could. Wagner had a long way to go musically, and more profound things to say later, but this opera is a strong and cohesive work of art and a good evening in the theater.


I would say the music is programmatic, but definitely not atmospheric. He might have substituted Berlioz and Liszt for Bellini and Meyerbeer but there's never ambiguity in how the music is proceeding and where it is going for the common-practice trained ear. The Dutchman's themes are exciting but much of the music I find very hum-drum and tiresome.


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## alan davis (Oct 16, 2013)

Couchie said:


> 1. Tannhäuser - One of Wagner's finest overtures, although the rest of Act 1 is somewhat of a wash. Act 2 is a masterpiece from start to finish. Act 3 is chalk full of great arias and choruses although the sum is a little less than its parts.
> 
> 2. Lohengrin - The essential transition piece between Early and Mature Wagner, the music is heads and tails above the other two, this is apparent right from the sublime prelude in which Wagner gradually threads a melody from the shimmering strings. Dramatically I find it flops, especially the splurge of action abruptly bringing the opera to its conclusion. Act 2 is sublime.
> 
> 3. Der fliegende Holländer - Just utterly boring aside from a few highlight arias. And the story is downright stupid. Erik is annoying, Senta is simply insane.


Couchie, couldn't have put it any better. Have tried but never warmed to the Dutchman, love Tannhauser and Lohengrin is still a work in progress for me after 2 decades....But definitely Tannhauser is my favourite of the early operas.


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## Sonata (Aug 7, 2010)

Lohengrin is my clear favorite

Dutchman and Tannhauser may well be a tie. I find Tannhauser's first act to be the most beautiful music between the two, but the story and characters of Dutchman interest me more. In the past, I didn't care about the story of the opera, only the music, but a few years in I am paying attention to the story more. For now we'll call it a draw.

All three I think I like more than Tristan...


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## Sloe (May 9, 2014)

Sonata said:


> All three I think I like more than Tristan...


I like all of Wagner´s operas from The Flying Dutchman with the exception of Tannhäuser that I find a bit difficult to like more or less equal.


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

Sonata said:


> All three I think I like more than Tristan...


*gasp*

My goodness. Tristan und Isolde is the greatest opera ever written. In fact, the entire classical western tradition can be described as the march up to and from Tristan's lofty slopes.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Couchie said:


> *gasp*
> 
> My goodness. Tristan und Isolde is the greatest opera ever written. In fact, the entire classical western tradition can be described as the march up to and from Tristan's lofty slopes.


I agree, the love duet especially is out of this world.


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## Sonata (Aug 7, 2010)

Couchie said:


> *gasp*
> 
> My goodness. Tristan und Isolde is the greatest opera ever written. In fact, the entire classical western tradition can be described as the march up to and from Tristan's lofty slopes.


To me the scene you present more accurately described Don Carlo(s).  As much as I want to love rather than like and appreciate Tristan, the Wagnerian style of singing is something that's not entirely to my taste. I've come a long way in my Wagner appreciation, but I don't think that will change. I'll always prefer the vocal stylings in Verdi and Puccini. they just sound more musical, and Wagner sounds somewhat closer to that in the ones I mentioned.


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## Sloe (May 9, 2014)

Sonata said:


> To me the scene you present more accurately described Don Carlo(s).  As much as I want to love rather than like and appreciate Tristan, the Wagnerian style of singing is something that's not entirely to my taste. I've come a long way in my Wagner appreciation, but I don't think that will change. I'll always prefer the vocal stylings in Verdi and Puccini. they just sound more musical, and Wagner sounds somewhat closer to that in the ones I mentioned.


Both Don Carlo and Tristan und Isole are great operas.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Couchie said:


> *gasp*
> 
> My goodness. Tristan und Isolde is the greatest opera ever written. In fact, the entire classical western tradition can be described as the march up to and from Tristan's lofty slopes.


I think I might almost agree with your estimate of _Tristan_, except for my disinclination to set _Tristan_ and _Parsifal_ against each other. _Tristan_ is the more viscerally intense, and in historical terms the more visionary and earth-shaking. But _Parsifal_ actually most sums up the Western tradition in its range of musical style, reaching back to the Renaissance and ahead to impressionism and the "panchromaticism" of the Second Viennese School (with even a hint of the Orient in the motif of Kundry's enchantment and the melismas of the flower maidens). That Wagner manages to make of such "polystylism" a perfectly integrated work which finds a precise dramatic and musical role for every stylistic inflection, makes _Parsifal,_ for me, a miracle quite the equal of _Tristan. _ And that's to say nothing of its subtlety and profundity of expression, which achieves more with less than in any of Wagner's other works.

_Tristan_ mows me down. _Parsifal_ lifts me up. I think they're the twin peaks of opera, and I don't care which is Everest and which is K2!


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

Woodduck said:


> I think I might almost agree with your estimate of _Tristan_, except for my disinclination to set _Tristan_ and _Parsifal_ against each other. _Tristan_ is the more viscerally intense, and in historical terms the more visionary and earth-shaking. But _Parsifal_ actually most sums up the Western tradition in its range of musical style, reaching back to the Renaissance and ahead to impressionism and the "panchromaticism" of the Second Viennese School (with even a hint of the Orient in the motif of Kundry's enchantment and the melismas of the flower maidens). That Wagner manages to make of such "polystylism" a perfectly integrated work which finds a precise dramatic and musical role for every stylistic inflection, makes _Parsifal,_ for me, a miracle quite the equal of _Tristan. _ And that's to say nothing of its subtlety and profundity of expression, which achieves more with less than in any of Wagner's other works.
> 
> _Tristan_ mows me down. _Parsifal_ lifts me up. I think they're the twin peaks of opera, and I don't care which is Everest and which is K2!


I find Tristan is Wagner's 9th Symphony and Parsifal is his Late Quartets. While the Late Quartets are Beethoven's sincerest expression of his genius and profundity, the 9th remains his unequivocal masterpiece for its evenness. I struggle to find a single flaw in Tristan, Parsifal perhaps surpasses Tristan in instances but also falls short in others (particularly the first Act has its moments of the mundane).


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Couchie said:


> I find Tristan is Wagner's 9th Symphony and Parsifal is his Late Quartets. While the Late Quartets are Beethoven's sincerest expression of his genius and profundity, the 9th remains his unequivocal masterpiece for its evenness. I struggle to find a single flaw in Tristan, Parsifal perhaps surpasses Tristan in instances but also falls short in others (particularly the first Act has its moments of the mundane).


Interesting. I've never found any of _Parsifal _mundane, and find Gurnemanz more absorbing (assuming a good interpreter, of course) than old King Mark, whose lengthy lament I never look forward to, and whose final lines annoy me when they keep me waiting for the Liebestod. Hence _Tristan_ seems less perfect to me than _Parsifal._


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

Sonata said:


> To me the scene you present more accurately described Don Carlo(s).  As much as I want to love rather than like and appreciate Tristan, the Wagnerian style of singing is something that's not entirely to my taste. I've come a long way in my Wagner appreciation, but I don't think that will change. I'll always prefer the vocal stylings in Verdi and Puccini. they just sound more musical, and Wagner sounds somewhat closer to that in the ones I mentioned.


That's interesting. While I've never warmed to Verdi, I find Puccini takes heavy cues from Wagner, in his long threaded melodic lines. With Puccini of course, the singers can ride on the strings mirroring the vocal line and generally enjoy sparser accompaniment. Wagner's texture is much thicker and more contrapunctal, requiring the heavier voices. However some singers like Waltraud Meier get away with a lighter voice due to its piercing qualities. It cuts through the music rather than having to rise above it. I'd check out her Tristan recording if you haven't.


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

Woodduck said:


> Interesting. I've never found any of _Parsifal _mundane, and find Gurnemanz more absorbing (assuming a good interpreter, of course) than old King Mark, whose lengthy lament I never look forward to, and whose final lines annoy me when they keep me waiting for the Liebestod. Hence _Tristan_ seems less perfect to me than _Parsifal._


Personally I prefer King Marke's lament to the Liebestod, although that may just be because I have a thing for the Basso Profundo, and the Liebestod, being one of the more straightforward things Wagner penned, I have simply overlistened to.


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## Sonata (Aug 7, 2010)

Couchie said:


> That's interesting. While I've never warmed to Verdi, I find Puccini takes heavy cues from Wagner, in his long threaded melodic lines. With Puccini of course, the singers can ride on the strings mirroring the vocal line and generally enjoy sparser accompaniment. Wagner's texture is much thicker and more contrapunctal, requiring the heavier voices. However some singers like Waltraud Meier get away with a lighter voice due to its piercing qualities. It cuts through the music rather than having to rise above it. I'd check out her Tristan recording if you haven't.


Actually, I believe I have heard Meier's Isolde, and I did enjoy it  While Bohm's recording is my favorite Tristan on the whole, Meier specifically gave my favorite first act performance. I think it was the Barenboim with her that I heard.


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## SiegendesLicht (Mar 4, 2012)

Woodduck said:


> Interesting. I've never found any of _Parsifal _mundane, *and find Gurnemanz more absorbing (assuming a good interpreter, of course) than old King Mark, whose lengthy lament I never look forward to, and whose final lines annoy me* when they keep me waiting for the Liebestod. Hence _Tristan_ seems less perfect to me than _Parsifal._


King Marke is the ultimate good guy who finishes last - even here...


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

SiegendesLicht said:


> King Marke is the ultimate good guy who finishes last - even here...


It's a tribute to Wagner as a dramatist and as a human being that Marke, though he represents the "day world," is not made a villain. All Wagner's characters, even Ortrud, Alberich, Hagen and Klingsor, have some dimension that elicits sympathy from us. The worst I can say of the old king is that alongside the intense emotions of the lovers he's a little dull.


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## SiegendesLicht (Mar 4, 2012)

Of course he is not a villain. From an entirely logical, emotionless point of view it is rather Tristan who could be a villain: first he kills Isolde's betrothed, then he comes to take her as a bride to the king, obviously without her consent, and finally he cheats on that very king with that very bride. Marke, on the opposite, is a gentle king who was so much in awe of Isolde that even being married to her, he did not dare to approach her sexually. But Tristan und Isolde is all about illogical love, love that defies every bit of common sense and even basic human instincts.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

SiegendesLicht said:


> Of course he is not a villain. From an entirely logical, emotionless point of view it is rather Tristan who could be a villain: first he kills Isolde's betrothed, then he comes to take her as a bride to the king, obviously without her consent, and finally he cheats on that very king with that very bride. Marke, on the opposite, is a gentle king who was so much in awe of Isolde that even being married to her, he did not dare to approach her sexually. But Tristan und Isolde is all about illogical love, love that defies every bit of common sense and even basic human instincts.


In the society of the time Tristan's actions were not villainous but were expected of him, and he was virtuous enough to be torn by the conflict between love and loyalty. In this story society is the villain - a society in which individual lives are ruled and ruined by the conventions of class, gender, and position. It's a prominent theme throughout Wagner's works.


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## Sonata (Aug 7, 2010)

SiegendesLicht said:


> Of course he is not a villain. From an entirely logical, emotionless point of view it is rather Tristan who could be a villain: first he kills Isolde's betrothed, then he comes to take her as a bride to the king, obviously without her consent, and finally he cheats on that very king with that very bride. Marke, on the opposite, is a gentle king who was so much in awe of Isolde that even being married to her, he did not dare to approach her sexually. But Tristan und Isolde is all about illogical love, love that defies every bit of common sense and even basic human instincts.


Beautifully summarized.

And re: the discussion on King Marke's lament, I quite enjoy it personally. There is a heavy sadness there. If he is dull he knows it (and I don't find him dull personally). but maybe a realization that for a young woman he couldn't entirely compete with Tristan for her affections.


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## interestedin (Jan 10, 2016)

Couchie said:


> Personally I prefer King Marke's lament to the Liebestod, although that may just be because I have a thing for the Basso Profundo, and the Liebestod, being one of the more straightforward things Wagner penned, I have simply overlistened to.


So do I. Liebestod is merely a copy of the end of the second act's big duet, but not as gripping as the latter. Marke's lament is unique.


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## mountmccabe (May 1, 2013)

interestedin said:


> So do I. Liebestod is merely a copy of the end of the second act's big duet, but not as gripping as the latter. Marke's lament is unique.


I think "merely a copy" is overselling it quite a bit, but even so I find Wagner's reuse of themes and melodies as a key feature, not a problem.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

The music of the Liebesnacht/Liebestod is transformed by its context. In the love duet it's passionate and urgent. Isolde in the end is beyond passion. The tempo and articulation should be quite different.


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## bz3 (Oct 15, 2015)

Hmmm well these 3 were largely unknown to me outside of their overtures until recently. I watched Acts 1 and 2 of Lohengrin this evening and will finish it tomorrow evening but I like it quite a lot so far. I've seen the all Wagner's operas that come later and heard many of them a number of times, but I almost feel like I should have started with Lohengrin. It has many of the elements of the later works in a more streamlined, perhaps more accessible, setting.


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## Bartfromthenetherlands (Sep 29, 2016)

They're all very impressive works, how do I choose???


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

Bump for further comments.


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

My new ranking:

1. Lohengrin. By what magic does this prelude unfold and fascinate in slow ecstasy.

2. Tannhauser. Act II is still one of Wagner's best, most cohesive, acts.

3. Dutchman. Gripping prelude. The rest is rehashed prelude or bore.


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## mountmccabe (May 1, 2013)

mountmccabe said:


> 1. Der fliegende Holländer
> 2. Lohengrin
> 3. Tannhäuser
> 
> I rank Holländer ahead of Siegfried and Die Meistersinger von Nürnberg. Currently I might rank Tannhäuser below Rienzi, but I need to give it another chance.


1. Tannhäuser - the 2nd act is a little tedious, but the themes are just beautiful
2. Der fliegende Holländer - Perhaps Wagner's most taut opera, but also less distinctly him
3. Lohengrin - I probably just need to spend more time with it

My rankings have changed much in three years. True, I've seen _Holländer_ twice since those ranks, but I've also seen my first two _Tannhäuser_ live performances (and both more recently than my last _Holländer_), and I'm really entranced by the music.

I've still never seen _Lohengrin_ live, alas. Maybe next year.

And _Siegfried_ is now above them all, with _Meistersinger_ at the bottom.


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## Meyerbeer Smith (Mar 25, 2016)

_Lohengrin_: Alpha. My favourite Wagner. Like a medieval tapestry come to life. It's his closest to "opera" (rather than music drama), and has an amazing number of great arias, duets, choruses... Almost every line of recitative has its own melody. Wagner has fused French grand opera with early Romantic German opera (Meyerbeer with Marschner, if you will) to form his own language. Act I is musically inspired throughout, with detachable numbers arising seamlessly from the text (again, as in grand opera). Act III does bog down in the bedroom scene (a "modern" reworking of Gluck's _Alceste_), but the public scenes - particularly the sublime Grail Narration - are impressive. When I went through my "WAGNER IS AWESOME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!" stage (at 23), I used to sit in the dark, and listen to Jess Thomas singing "In fernem Land" in the kind of ecstatic fixation reserved for the end of Mahler II.

_Flying Dutchman_: Alpha. Probably Wagner's most accessible opera. It has a lot of energy and brio, and great tunes - off the top of my head, the overture, the double chorus "Steuermann lass der Wacht", the storm music, the spinning chorus... Fast-paced, too.

_Tannhauser_: Beta. Sounds a lot like Halévy, whom Wagner admired! (He devoted 20 pages to _La reine de Chypre_, which he wrote the piano score for, pointing to it as an example for German opera composers to follow.) It should have been a hit in Paris, if he hadn't omitted the obligatory middle-act ballet. (Ballet was an essential part of 18th and 19th century opera; we hear of interpolated operas in Mozart's _Mitridate di Ponto_, in Rossini, in Verdi. Audiences wanted a long musical evening: watch an act or so of opera, and then a ballet for light relief.) He's taken images from Meyerbeer's _Robert le Diable _ - the tournament for the princess's hand, the Waverley hero wavering between supernatural evil and religious good, the saintly character kneeling at the cross, the orgiastic ballets - and revised them to create his own personal vision. Not entirely successful; many of the arias/numbers are excellent (it's probably got his highest number of hit pieces), but the story itself isn't terribly interesting. The Met production, though, is beautiful.


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## Reichstag aus LICHT (Oct 25, 2010)

Dr. Shatterhand said:


> _Lohengrin_... Almost every line of recitative has its own melody.


I've never thought of it like that before, but you're quite right. The entire opening scene of Act II is virtually an extended duet for Ortrud and Telramund.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

Hard to order these three but my initial reaction is Hollander, then Tannhauser, and finally Lohengrin.


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## MAS (Apr 15, 2015)

*Lohengrin*
by a wide margin, then....

*Tannhäuser*
*Holländer*


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## MAS (Apr 15, 2015)

mountmccabe said:


> 1.
> 
> I've still never seen _Lohengrin_ live, alas. Maybe next year.
> 
> .


I hope you got to see your live *Lohengrin*, without rats, pigs, Nazis, or long coats, but a gorgeous evocative production (which means not in Germany).


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

I like fairy tales so Lohengrin resonates to me on that level. The main attraction to me about Lohengrin is that it has some of the most beautiful and super thrilling music of any opera. I saw a really first rate production at Seattle Opera when Speight Jenkins was still here ( I haven't enjoyed opera here since he left) and I would say it was one of the greatest operatic experiences I ever saw onstage. Dutchman I enjoyed as a theater piece but don't listen to outside of the opera house. I enjoy Dich Teure Halle and the overture to Tannhauser. My favorite Ortrud is Varnay. Elsa is Jessye Norman. I love Kaufmann as Lohengrin.


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## Zhdanov (Feb 16, 2016)

Seattleoperafan said:


> I like fairy tales so Lohengrin resonates to me on that level.


however, of course there's more to Lohengrin then just a fairy tale...


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