# Claudio Monteverdi, the father of the actual opera?



## myaskovsky2002 (Oct 3, 2010)

I like Monteverdi very much...His operas are awesome, his madrigals...He was incredible and his sense of humor was so modern...

What do you think about him?


Martin


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

myaskovsky2002 said:


> I like Monteverdi very much...His operas are awesome, his madrigals...He was incredible and his sense of humor was so modern...
> 
> What do you think about him?
> 
> Martin


While he did not create the genre - it was created a few years earlier by the Florentine Camerata members and the first opera was composed by one of their members, Jacopo Peri - he was spectacular. L'Orfeo remains to this day one of the best operas ever composed.


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## Delicious Manager (Jul 16, 2008)

I have always been frustrated by the fact that Monteverdi's immense impact on music isn't properly recognised by most people. He was as large - or perhaps even larger - a revolutionary as Beethoven 200 years later. Almost single-handedly, Monteverdi 'invented' (developed?) the new Baroque style and dragged music from its counterpoint-dominated and human-voice-led music of the 16th century into a new homophonic musical world where instrumental music became far more important and musical drams (operas) enjoyed immesne popularity.

I find Monteverdi's music staggering in its innovation, invention and quality. Without Monteverdi, music might have developed quite differently.


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## zoziejemaar (Dec 15, 2010)

L'Orfeo is for me a perfect synthesis of text, music, and drama. All these three elements unite with each other on each single moment of the opera. The use of instruments, the expressiveness of sung recitatives, the irresistible melodies of the aria's and ritornello's... It's quite awesome, and quite unique too, since opera hadn't yet received its more fixed forms.

When 'La Musica' herself enters the stage and sings about the power of music, it seems like Monteverdi was conscious of his own musical powers. He simply takes here a giant's step forward in musical history.

The madrigals are something else. It is a bit more difficult to "enter" this world. But once you do, you can feel the passion and the poetry that is in there.

And then the Vespers! What a grandiose monument! For this work alone, he deserves all accolades a composer can get! :trp:


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

_Combattimento di Tancredi e Clorinda_ is also sublime. I like Poppea less. Maybe it wasn't even his.


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## HarpsichordConcerto (Jan 1, 2010)

It should be noted that Monteverdi's operas were, as far as scholars know, performed behind private doors, i.e. not for the public. He had students and perhaps most notably, was that of Francesco Cavalli (1602 - 1676), who was one of the very first to put on operas in _public opera houses_. While essentially still a new genre at the _start_ of Cavalli's career, it had by the _end_ of Cavalli's career, taken a much more mature form that later generation of masters would model on, and that which blossomed Italian Baroque opera.


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## myaskovsky2002 (Oct 3, 2010)

*100%*



> While he did not create the genre - it was created a few years earlier by the Florentine Camerata members and the first opera was composed by one of their members, Jacopo Peri - he was spectacular. L'Orfeo remains to this day one of the best operas ever composed.


You are right!

Martin


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## myaskovsky2002 (Oct 3, 2010)

*Poppea, Orfeo*

Poppea is his last opera...less serious than Orfeo, il combatimento...we have just some excerpts...nice...but still.

I like Poppea very much, it is like listening a wonderful operetta by Oscar Strauss, the story is frivolous...and I have my frivolous side too...LOL.
Orfeo is serious and the end is sad, not like the Gluck's version...with a happy end!

Poppea end well....but in real life, Neron killed Poppea kicking her ***!!!!! Autch! :devil:

Martin


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## myaskovsky2002 (Oct 3, 2010)

*mistake*

Poppea ended well...


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## Rasa (Apr 23, 2009)

I very much enjoy his books of madrigals. If you listen to them in order, you can hear the passage of time and the changing of styles.


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## HarpsichordConcerto (Jan 1, 2010)

myaskovsky2002 said:


> Poppea is his last opera...less serious than Orfeo, il combatimento...we have just some excerpts...nice...but still.
> 
> I like Poppea very much, it is like listening a wonderful operetta by Oscar Strauss, the story is frivolous...and I have my frivolous side too...LOL.
> Orfeo is serious and the end is sad, not like the Gluck's version...with a happy end!
> ...


The authorship of _L'incoronazione _ has always been speculative. While there is probably no doubt Monteverdi had involvement in it, it is almost equally likely that more than one composer was involved, at least in the versions that have survived to us today.

_L'Orfeo_ is probably the only one that was largely by Monteverdi.

Nonetheless all are good pieces of music.


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## myaskovsky2002 (Oct 3, 2010)

*Rasa*



> I very much enjoy his books of madrigals. If you listen to them in order, you can hear the passage of time and the changing of styles.


I listened to all but in disorder, maybe I should follow your suggestions. Thanks.
I had it on 8 LP that I transferred into CD...It is too expensive for buying all over again.

Martin


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## StlukesguildOhio (Dec 25, 2006)

Monteverdi is the early composer who ranks highest in my personal echelon. Yes his innovations are stupendous. His contributions to opera amount to essentially making it the genre we know today. And the Vespers!!! And the Madrigals!!! I spent a good deal of time last year familiarizing myself with Monteverdi's madrigals. I am especially enamored of this one:


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## myaskovsky2002 (Oct 3, 2010)

*Lamento della ninfa*

wonderful!

Thank you

Martin


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## Listener (Sep 20, 2010)

Monteverdi is one of my favorite composer. L'Orfeo is really the only opera I like.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

His music is great to see/hear live. Love that web of sound, so modern. Missed two performances of the _Vespers_ here in Sydney last year, & I've been kicking myself ever since (but I was fortunate to see two shorter choral works earlier that year). I need to get more of his stuff, right now I only have the Brilliant Classics disc of his_ Tasso Madrigals_, which is superb. & yes, if his music comes up again in the concert schedules I'll have to go along. Amazing genius of a composer...


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## Bardamu (Dec 12, 2011)

So recently I've bought a few Opera ( on CD ) that I never listened before.
Bartok' Bluebeard Castle, Tchaikovsky' Eugene Onegin, Purcell' King Arthur and Monteverdi' Orfeo.
Must admit that the latter was a revelation for me.
Listened to Poppea after a while but I didn't enjoy much...

Have you some recommendation ? ( not confined to Opera Lirica )



> Vi ricorda, o boschi ombrosi, de' miei lunghi aspri tormenti,
> quando i sassi a' miei lamenti rispondean, fatti pietosi?
> Dite, allor non vi sembrai più d'ogni altro sconsolato?
> Or fortuna ha stil cangiato ed ha vòlti in festa i guai.
> ...


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## sospiro (Apr 3, 2010)

Bardamu said:


> So recently I've bought a few Opera ( on CD ) that I never listened before.
> Bartok' Bluebeard Castle, Tchaikovsky' Eugene Onegin, Purcell' King Arthur and Monteverdi' Orfeo.
> Must admit that the latter was a revelation for me.
> Listened to Poppea after a while but I didn't enjoy much...
> ...


Bardamu

If you want more information on Monteverdi there's a thread in the opera section (where this thread should have originally been put).

The opera forum is the best place to go for information or if you have a specific question. We opera fans don't usually stray into alien terrain like this. :devil:


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## myaskovsky2002 (Oct 3, 2010)

Listener said:


> Monteverdi is one of my favorite composer. L'Orfeo is really the only opera I like.


I prefer l'incoronazzione...

Martin, crowned


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## Chi_townPhilly (Apr 21, 2007)

sospiro said:


> Bardamu
> 
> If you want more information on Monteverdi there's a thread in the opera section (where this thread should have originally been put).


*mamascarlatti* called our attention to this, as well- so... moved.


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## Guest (Jan 6, 2012)

I think Monteverdi a magnificent composer! I love all his work, especially "L'Orfeo" and "L'il Coronazione de Poppea" (spelling probably dodgy). I think the beautiful sound is like spun gold and so translucent as to be diaphonous, really!! I have Concerto Koln/Jacobs doing Poppea and it is glorious. So much of Monteverdi's work is rarely heard outside recording studios, eg. The Madrigals.


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## Crudblud (Dec 29, 2011)

CountenanceAnglaise said:


> "L'il Coronazione de Poppea"


I think that's that coloured fellow the kids are in to these days.

(L'incoronazione di Poppea, iirc)


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## Stargazer (Nov 9, 2011)

I love Monteverdi! He's definitely at the top of my list of favorite composers. I'm really not a huge fan of operas in general, but I thoroughly enjoy all of Monteverdi's operas. Its a pity that most of his operas were lost, I would have loved to hear some of his other ones. As for his madrigals, they're kind of hit or miss with me, but I absolutely love Lamento della Ninfa, and Si Dolce Tormento!


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

What about Jacopo Peri, father of the actual opera?


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## StlukesguildOhio (Dec 25, 2006)

If we can consider a long drawn out series of what are essentially recitatives to be an opera. The goal of this "opera", after all, was established by the Florentine Camerata, a group of Florentine writers and humanists, with the intention re-establishing the text as the central focus of musical vocal works. The text, of course, becomes increasingly difficult to discern when it is layered in a polyphonic manner. The Church had enforced similar strictures against polyphony, which was characterized as "the devil's music" (the rock'n'roll of the 1300s:devil::lol because of its roots in secular songs, as well as the fact that it made the text... the "holy text" of the Bible... difficult to understand.

Monteverdi, it has been suggested, may have witnessed Peri's first "opera" in performance and hit upon the the possibilities for musical drama or narrative as suggested in this work. With _L'Orfeo_, Monteverdi establishes in one fell swoop, the model of what we think of as "opera"... and gives us one of the greatest operas to boot.


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

StlukesguildOhio said:


> If we can consider a long drawn out series of what are essentially recitatives to be an opera. The goal of this "opera", after all, was established by the Florentine Camerata, a group of Florentine writers and humanists, with the intention re-establishing the text as the central focus of musical vocal works. The text, of course, becomes increasingly difficult to discern when it is layered in a polyphonic manner. The Church had enforced similar strictures against polyphony, which was characterized as "the devil's music" (the rock'n'roll of the 1300s:devil::lol because of its roots in secular songs, as well as the fact that it made the text... the "holy text" of the Bible... difficult to understand.
> 
> Monteverdi, it has been suggested, may have witnessed Peri's first "opera" in performance and hit upon the the possibilities for musical drama or narrative as suggested in this work. With _L'Orfeo_, Monteverdi establishes in one fell swoop, the model of what we think of as "opera"... and gives us one of the greatest operas to boot.


If Peri's "Dafne" (lost  ) and "Euridice" are just a bunch of recitatives, can't they still be actual operas? They may not exactly have a large amount of arias, but in the same sense you could also say that Wagner's music dramas don't exactly have recitative but are still considered as operas.


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## Bardamu (Dec 12, 2011)

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> What about Jacopo Peri, father of the actual opera?


To me is more important ( thus worth of the "father" monicker ) the first that composed an Opera that is still relevant today than the one whose work could resemble Opera and came first chronologically from the report we have.



Stargazer said:


> I love Monteverdi! He's definitely at the top of my list of favorite composers. I'm really not a huge fan of operas in general, but I thoroughly enjoy all of Monteverdi's operas. Its a pity that most of his operas were lost, I would have loved to hear some of his other ones. As for his madrigals, they're kind of hit or miss with me, but I absolutely love Lamento della Ninfa, and Si Dolce Tormento!


Thanks for the suggestion.
Will check those two madrigals.


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## Guest (Jan 11, 2012)

Yes, I think Peri and his opera "Dafne" was officially the first. That's what the textbooks were all saying, anyway, when I was at university.


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## myaskovsky2002 (Oct 3, 2010)

sospiro said:


> Bardamu
> 
> If you want more information on Monteverdi there's a thread in the opera section (where this thread should have originally been put).
> 
> The opera forum is the best place to go for information or if you have a specific question. We opera fans don't usually stray into alien terrain like this. :devil:


I'm sorry but your link folllows into DVD and Blu Ray, it is not just Monteverdi.

Martin


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## NightHawk (Nov 3, 2011)

After acquainting myself with Lully's 'Armide' and Rameau's 'Castor and Pollux' I have a whole new opinion of what recitative can be (and also, large choral scenes). In the French Baroque (and among its best exemplars) recitative can be so highly dramatic and theatrically effective that I don't miss (within these works) the big Italianate Aria with the high note AT ALL. No one was more surprised than me. I love Monteverdi and own 'Orfeo', 'Il Ritorno Ulysees in Patria' and 'L'Coronazione de Poppea'. 'Poppea' is my favorite, the final love duet (between two despicable persons) which ends the opera softly on an unaccompanied unison in the voices is perfection itself coming at the end of the long opera. I'm not throwing out my Italian and German opera by any means, but I have a lot more respect for certain of the stringent, dramatic styles that are recitative driven. And yes, they are still opera in my opine 



ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> If Peri's "Dafne" (lost  ) and "Euridice" are just a bunch of recitatives, can't they still be actual operas? They may not exactly have a large amount of arias, but in the same sense you could also say that Wagner's music dramas don't exactly have recitative but are still considered as operas.


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