# Gustav Mahler and his 8th symphony as opera



## Aramis (Mar 1, 2009)

Many people compare second part of Mahler's 8th symphony to opera. 

Indeed, it has everything except it's not staged in opera houses with customes, scenography and stuff. But it could be - it could be logically performed on stage, despite couple of things that would require some advanced tools, because text resambles operatic libretto with clarified surroundings and dramatic action (how coult it be any diffrent - it's nothing else than famous Faust), there is instrumental introduction just like an overture, the solists and choirs represent particular characters - again, there is everything. 

So I'm wondering - how do you approach it? Did you ever try to listen it as an opera? 

8th is quite philosophical work and I can imagine that some may think that it would be unsuitable to pay attention to drama like in opera instead on focusing at deeper meaning and ideas - like in oratorio. I also guess that Mahler himself treated it this way. 

But at the other hand it's attractive for those that are both lovers of Mahler and opera (like me) and would love if master had written stage work. Well, maybe he did?


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## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

I can see where you're coming from, Aramis - it's a work that is on the grandest of scales. Funnily enough, I've always had some difficulty accepting the 8th as a symphony at all - it does seem very anomalous compared to his others. As regards being staged as an opera, I'm not so sure - most of the 'action' involves entities zooming about in the firmament which as a visual spectacle could get a bit tedious after a while. I'd prefer to see it as an oratorio more than anything else.


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## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

Oh woe!

Why must great art be bastardized? The end of civilization is nigh!


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## Aramis (Mar 1, 2009)

> As regards being staged as an opera, I'm not so sure - most of the 'action' involves entities zooming about in the firmament which as a visual spectacle could get a bit tedious after a while.


It's not less than there is in many operas by Wagner, for example. All those long scenes in his operas with two characters theoritically doing nothing except talking somehow are succesfully adopted visually on stage. There is a lot of place for acting and material for some marvelous scenes in final scene of Faust. How could it be borind?


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## Herkku (Apr 18, 2010)

Personally, I have always felt that Brahms and Mahler were sensible enough not to try to compose operas! Although Mahler completed von Weber's Die Drei Pintos, of which there used to be a recording on LPs.


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

It is an interesting take. I have always found the 8th to be the weakest by far of his symphonies. For 2011, I intend to listen once more to all 10 of them, and I will keep this in mind when it is the turn of the 8th.


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## Herkku (Apr 18, 2010)

The Eighth is certainly one of it's kind, but I like it and in my opinion it's not weak at all. Still, I have doubts about it as an opera...


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## superhorn (Mar 23, 2010)

I remember that RCA recording of Weber/Mahler's "Die Drei Pintos"(The three Pintos) from LP,too,and I believe it may have been reissued somewhere on CD.I liked it a lot.
There is also a much more recent recording on Italy's Dynamic label .Check arkivmusic.com
for it.It's by far the best place on the internet to look for hard-to-find classical CDs and DVDs,and their overall selection is unbeatable.
Mahler also made at least two abortive attempts to write an opera when her was around 20 or so. I wonder if he might have actually completed an opera or operas if he had lived longer.
Alas,we'll never know.


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## Chi_townPhilly (Apr 21, 2007)

I remember sharing the perspective of Michael Steinberg before- 
he said that if Mahler hadn't called his 8th a symphony, we'd be calling it an _oratorio_. See back here.


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## scytheavatar (Aug 27, 2009)

Aramis said:


> It's not less than there is in many operas by Wagner, for example. All those long scenes in his operas with two characters theoritically doing nothing except talking somehow are succesfully adopted visually on stage. There is a lot of place for acting and material for some marvelous scenes in final scene of Faust. How could it be borind?


Expect that they aren't just doing nothing but "talking"; I challenge you to name a long scene in any Wagner opera which doesn't contain a high amount of dramatic content. If you could easily make a successful opera with just "acting and material for some marvelous scenes" the operas of the likes of Schubert and Dvorak would have been much more popular than they are today, cause their operas are full of wonderful music. Yet they aren't. For the simple reason that most of them have weak librettos with limited dramatic content. Mahler's 8th is probably closer to a requiem than an opera, since it involves Faust's ascention into heaven. So adapting it will probably turn out to look like the grail scene of Parsifal. Which is not that bad, but it'll look like something missing its head.


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## Aramis (Mar 1, 2009)

> I challenge you to name a long scene in any Wagner opera which doesn't contain a high amount of dramatic content


First act of Siegfried. After the bear thing there is not much going on. Siegfried and Mime talk. Siegfried leaves. Wotan enters. Mime and Wotan talk. Siegfried gets back and action returns with him.

I know that there are some lesser events during that time but it doesn't change much.

Also Wotan telling the story of Ring to Brunhilde comes to mind.


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