# Weird combination--science guy+classical lover



## KevinW (Nov 21, 2021)

Hello people I have a funny question here. Is there anyone around you (or yourself) being a science/math/computer guy but at the same time a classical lover? I am kinda like this and I would like to hear your storeis about this kind of people. Is this kind of classical lover less common or not really? How did they gain interest in classical music if their original expertise is science or vise versa? How will classical music affect your study or career in science and how will science influence your course of learning or listening to classical? Really expecting to hear some interesting stories!


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

I got a Ph.D. in Chemistry in 1984, and worked in industrial science jobs, later management, until early retirement in 2012. At the time (1984) my music was 100% pop/rock, especially progressive rock and new wave. About 2 years later I started exploring classical music (becoming dissatisfied with the direction pop/rock was taking), to the extent that I listened to almost nothing else for over 10 years. Since the end of the nineties, it is a mix of both types of music for me.

My science expertise and experience never had any effect on my music choices and preferences and vice versa though.


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## MarkW (Feb 16, 2015)

You make likes and dislikes sound logical and inevitable -- but there's no one-size-fits-all. Einstein loved Mozart but was ambivalent about Brahms - and neither of them had anything to do with his theorizing. You can like CM and like physics, math, cosmology, literature, poetry, history, or great battles. Everyone got into his or her interests in a unique way and there are few "stories" other than that's what happened as they grew up. I am interested in both arts and science and that was just my upbringing.


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## KevinW (Nov 21, 2021)

Thanks for your story. Actually I rarely see people change from pop/rock to classical, only the other way around. Ok, I will have to work on my AP Chem assignment now... Talk to you later!


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## KevinW (Nov 21, 2021)

MarkW said:


> You make likes and dislikes sound logical and inevitable -- but there's no one-size-fits-all. Einstein loved Mozart but was ambivalent about Brahms - and neither of them had anything to do with his theorizing. You can like CM and like physics, math, cosmology, literature, poetry, history, or great battles. Everyone got into his or her interests in a unique way and there are few "stories" other than that's what happened as they grew up. I am interested in both arts and science and that was just my upbringing.


Yeah, maybe art and science aren't contrary at all.


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## KevinW (Nov 21, 2021)

Art Rock said:


> I got a Ph.D. in Chemistry in 1984, and worked in industrial science jobs, later management, until early retirement in 2012. At the time (1984) my music was 100% pop/rock, especially progressive rock and new wave. About 2 years later I started exploring classical music (becoming dissatisfied with the direction pop/rock was taking), to the extent that I listened to almost nothing else for over 10 years. Since the end of the nineties, it is a mix of both types of music for me.
> 
> My science expertise and experience never had any effect on my music choices and preferences and vice versa though.


Also, great respect to you! I guess you are voluntarily working for Talk Classical as a moderator after retirement, right?


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

The voluntary part is right - the complete moderating team does it for free, out of love for the site. The timing is a bit off, as I've been a moderator since early this year - nine years after I retired.


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## larold (Jul 20, 2017)

There is no disconnect between science and music other than one is art and one science. Lots of composers use computer-generation to compose music, a combination of art and science.


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

My Dad was a brilliant scientist, PH.D in physics....he loved classical music...mainly the "standards" but he was open to many things...he was a decent tenor, and in retirement he joined the local classical chorus....we participated in many performances together - b minor Mass, Verdi Requiem, Creation, Carmina Burana, etc....
He esp enjoyed woodwind music...his Masters thesis was done on vibration patterns, variations in closed pipe settings...he used the clarinet for his experimental medium...at Temple University, his physics professor was Robert McGinnis, Sr....Dad got his reeds from McGinnis' son, Robert, Jr, who was a very prominent well-known biggie in the professional clarinet world - PhiladelphiaOrch, NBCSO NYPO, SFSO...


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## JTS (Sep 26, 2021)

I can’t see anything weird about somebody having a degree in science and liking classical music. Plenty of people I know are very fine musicians and scientist too. I am a trained scientist and very much enjoy classical music as a hobby


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

In my experience science training and interest and practical experience in classical music are highly correlated. At one university I attended the music school orchestra was half medical students and future scientists. Einstein and his violin ring a bell?


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## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

Check out *Milton Babbitt*. During World War II Babbitt taught mathematics at Princeton and worked as a mathematician for the US government.

Me personally am a licensed electrical engineer (very low tech, only in building consulting). I'd say my little excursions into music are (were) way more challenging than the stuff I do now for a living.


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## fluteman (Dec 7, 2015)

My grandfather was a scientist with a PhD in biochemistry and an international reputation in his field. Not only was he also a classical music lover, he could play a wide variety of music on the piano despite having no formal training.

Not only are scientists frequently classical music lovers, many can play instruments on a high level. I've met scientists who are graduates of Juilliard and other top music schools who continue to perform classical music on the side on a high level. A close relative of mine is a mathematician who played the cello professionally in an orchestra while earning his PhD and still free-lances.


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## Simon Moon (Oct 10, 2013)

I am not so sure there is any strange combination of interests and professions, with the enjoyment classical music.

I am a network engineer.
My best friend for almost my entire life, is a software engineer.
And another very good friend, is a electronical (hardware) engineer.

We all love classical music. I differ from them, in that I tend to like modernist, avant-garde, contemporary, 12 tone classical, but they tend to like early 20th century and earlier eras. We have an overlap in our tastes around Stravinsky, Bartok, Britton, Barber, Sibelius. But where I don't like earlier eras, they don't like any later music.



KevinW said:


> Thanks for your story. Actually I rarely see people change from pop/rock to classical, only the other way around. Ok, I will have to work on my AP Chem assignment now... Talk to you later!


I went from rock to classical.
My best friend I mentioned above, went from classical to rock.
My other friend I mentioned above, became a fan of both, simultaneously.

And it's not like we went from one genre to the other. We all still like the previous genres we listened to, we just added other genres.

And none of us are fans of mainstream rock. We are fans of prog-'rock' (especially avant-prog). Prog tends to have many of the same things I like about classical music: very high level of musicianship, complexity, long format 'songs', avoidance of verse>chorus>bridge song structure, deep and broad emotional and intellectual content, etc. So, even though prog (and its various subgenres) is a form of rock, it has very little in common with the music the vast majority of people associate with rock.


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## MarkW (Feb 16, 2015)

I know of two university chemistry professors who are accomplished clarinet players one good enough to play the Mozart concerto with his university orchestra.


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

From:

https://www.stokowski.org/index.html

[this is a great site to explore - all sorts of info on orchestra personnel over many , many years....I find it to be quite accurate, overall]

Chicago SO - assistant principal bassoon:
Buchman, William
(Ohio 1966- )

Assistant Principal bassoon 1996-present, bassoon 1992-1996 (also Dallas Symphony 1990-1992. also active in chamber music such as in Music of the Baroque and in Chicago Pro Musica playing new music, Chicago Chamber Musicians including recordings

*Brown University BS in Physics, Yale School of Music, USC School of Music.*

From BostonSO - former principal horn:
Kavalovski, Charles 'Chuck'
(Minnesota 1936- )
Principal horn (also Denver Symphony Principal horn 1971-1972, also Boston Symphony Chamber Players)

*Dr. Kavalovski gained his Ph.D. in Nuclear Physics from the University of Minnesota. Teaching university phyics, achieved tenured professor position.* His music teaching has continued at Boston University and the New England Conservatory.


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

When I started to work after my PhD, the boss of my boss was an accomplished cello player, who played in chamber music concerts. Moreover, one of my direct colleagues (all Chemistry PhD's) sang in the Dutch Bach Choir that Ton Koopman used for his recordings of the Bach Passions.


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

The only thing weird about the the combination is the assumption that it is weird however your reference to doing an AP chem assignment explains all


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## SONNET CLV (May 31, 2014)

It seems to me there are a number of "science-types" in classical music. I think immediately of Borodin who was a chemist who wrote some fabulous music, including symphonies. Before him there was the astronomer William Herschel, most famous for his discovery of the planet Uranus, but a composer of quite a few delightful symphonies in the "classical" style. And in the 20th century there was the architect/engineer Iannis Xenakis, who produced buildings and, also by way of graph paper, some astonishing works for orchestra, voice, and small ensembles.

Science is no hindrance to appreciation of music.

Even outside of the "classical" style. Brian May, acclaimed guitarist for the rock band Queen, is an astrophysicist.


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## BrahmsWasAGreatMelodist (Jan 13, 2019)

Yes I am - not a weird combination at all. PM if you want to discuss.


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## KevinW (Nov 21, 2021)

I have a test to do before Thanksgiving, so...:lol: Going over oxidation reduction while listening to Brahms symphonies is what I am doing now.


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## KevinW (Nov 21, 2021)

Haha, I am also working on the Astronomy SciOl. I would agree science is not something contrary to music, and I can only say some science guys don't like music only because of their personal characters.


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## KevinW (Nov 21, 2021)

Art Rock said:


> The voluntary part is right - the complete moderating team does it for free, out of love for the site. The timing is a bit off, as I've been a moderator since early this year - nine years after I retired.


By the way, I saw your profile photo--you are really a science guy!:lol:


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## msmmsm (Mar 12, 2021)

Hi - interesting question. I am a science guy - PhD in Physics, then MD, specialize in Radiology; have always gravitated to classical music but fell deeply for Wagner about 10 years ago. Math/science types tend to appreciate the symmetries of classical music, and those who are touched by classical music may share a thirst to understand and experience the cutting edge of the unknown. Also, pedantic types like myself tend to appreciate the intricacies of recording, and of the analysis of recorded sound. So, not too far apart, really, in several ways.


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## KevinW (Nov 21, 2021)

Nice! What of Wagner attracts you?


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## msmmsm (Mar 12, 2021)

I like that it seems to go directly to my right brain. There is a book "My Stroke of Insight: A Brain Scientist's Personal Journey" by Jill Bolte Taylor (no COI with this forum, no relation) (https://www.amazon.com/My-Stroke-Insight-Scientists-Personal/dp/0452295548) about a woman (brain scientist) who had a stroke, remembered everything going out during the stroke and then coming back over a year, and write it all down (the book). Only the left brain was hit, and she was left in her right brain, which she described as Nirvana. In Wagner, over and over (in live performances), when the music starts, the people around me, the room, everything, even time, disappears, and my brain just stops and experiences total immersion (at best). From what I can tell, people have been achieving this by meditation for 2500 years, but without training or specific education the music (the best of it) seems to take me to the same place. I also love its epic story-telling nature, which I also get with the Iliad, the Odyssey, the Aeneid, Brothers Karamazov, and Joseph and his Brothers (Mann), etc. I also get that people are wired (physiologically, biochemically) differently, and the same music could easily, and from what I understand often does leave others cold.


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## BachIsBest (Feb 17, 2018)

Not really so strange. I'm currently doing a master's degree in mathematics and when I go to concerts I try to play "spot the members of the audience who also work in my local universities physics department" usually to much success. Walking through the mathematics department, one can also occasionally hear professors listening to classical music. I also knew a guy in my undergrad who majored in mathematics and minored in composition.


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## Shea82821 (Nov 19, 2021)

Actually, it's not as unusual as initially seen. I'd say about half the people I know personally, who are into classical music, are into science to some degree. This includes two or three with degrees in it, and one who recently became a professor of physics. Though I myself am not apart of that club, sorry to say.

And the same has applied historically as well. An example that immediately comes to mind, was William Herschel. I forget if he came to music first or science, but I do know he was fairly prolific as a composer. 20-odd symphonies, an array of chamber music, songs, and I think a few cantatas. His music doesn't seem to be well-catalogued, so I don't know exactly the amount. Still, he wrote a fair bit. Course, if we go into mathematics, there was also Xenakis. But unlike Herschel's efforts, that was the predominant cause of his fame. Babbitt and Borodin too. Even Benjamin Franklin dabbled his hand into composition, I believe. It's very much a common love, between music and science. Albeit one that isn't always terribly well-known.


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## science (Oct 14, 2010)

Seems to me that science and classical music are both correlated with higher education and middle-class (in the old sense, i.e. contrasted to working-class and ruling-class) aspirations.


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## BachIsBest (Feb 17, 2018)

science said:


> Seems to me that science and classical music are both correlated with higher education and middle-class (in the old sense, i.e. contrasted to working-class and ruling-class) aspirations.


I would agree that this may be part of it, but I do think, at least in my personal experience, the percentage of physic/math professors that like classical music is far too high for such a simple correlation to explain it. Based on my personal experience about 50% of physics/math professors listen to classical music compared to less than 5% in the general population.


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## Shea82821 (Nov 19, 2021)

I suspect, these days, it's more a hand-down from when the two were more upper-class aspirations. A remnant, if you will. It's hard to say if this is truly the case, but it's one possible answer. Course, I've heard a few repeat the same meme, about how it's because classical music makes you smarter, as a reason for this. I...think I'll stick with the prior one, thanks but no thanks.


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## science (Oct 14, 2010)

Shea82821 said:


> I suspect, these days, it's more a hand-down from when the two were more upper-class aspirations. A remnant, if you will. It's hard to say if this is truly the case, but it's one possible answer. Course, I've heard a few repeat the same meme, about how it's because *classical music makes you smarter*, as a reason for this. I...think I'll stick with the prior one, thanks but no thanks.


What's interesting to me is that there are probably a lot of people who are prepared to concede with an indifferent shrug that classical music might make them smarter but they don't care to listen to it or make their kids listen to it anymore than they intend to do anything else associated with upward mobility.


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## GucciManeIsTheNewWebern (Jul 29, 2020)

I'm not so sure about the classical music making you smarter thing. Some of the smartest people I know have *disgusting* taste in music. :lol:


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## Shea82821 (Nov 19, 2021)

science said:


> What's interesting to me is that there are probably a lot of people who are prepared to concede with an indifferent shrug that classical music might make them smarter but they don't care to listen to it or make their kids listen to it anymore than they intend to do anything else associated with upward mobility.


Oh there are plenty. Basically a dime-a-dozen, more often than not.


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## Shea82821 (Nov 19, 2021)

GucciManeIsTheNewWebern said:


> I'm not so sure about the classical music making you smarter thing. Some of the smartest people I know have *disgusting* taste in music. :lol:


Yeah it's pretty silly. I remember when I was in school, we briefly had a teacher who believed in this dictum. I remember he _really_ emphasized this idea, and I do mean it. Whatever effects it may have, they sure as hell didn't pass on to him. We practically just drew and talked during those classes we had with him - you can guess why his tenure was short - always with a Mozart concerto or maybe a Haydn symphony in the background. He himself just sat on the side doing...nothing. Course I didn't mind, by that point I already was into it. Basically a third recess to me


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## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

BachIsBest said:


> I would agree that this may be part of it, but I do think, at least in my personal experience, the percentage of physic/math professors that like classical music is far too high for such a simple correlation to explain it. Based on my personal experience about 50% of physics/math professors listen to classical music compared to less than 5% in the general population.


The gen pop does not seem the appropriate comparison. One needs to compare the science professors with e.g. lawyers, medical doctors, economic consultants, archaeology professors, parsons, high school principals, higher level administrators, i.e. other (upper) middle class college/grad school educated people.
I have also lots of anecdotal evidence for people who eventually received maths/science/eng degrees or PhDs and played classical music semiprofessionally or at a very high amateur level in their youth (or throughout). But not enough to guess if there are more of them in science than in medicine or humanities.


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## HerbertNorman (Jan 9, 2020)

My father is a chemical engineer and he taught me the love for classical music


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## Animal the Drummer (Nov 14, 2015)

I'm no kind of scientist but both my parents were (veterinary surgeon and pharmacist respectively) and loved music, my mother being particularly a classical fan. Like others here I've known numerous scientists who were greatly interested and in some cases gifted in music, but I'd add another observation, namely that the professionals in either field whom I've known personally are often very clear and focused thinkers.


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## juliante (Jun 7, 2013)

And let's not forget - one of the greatest scientists was fascinated and inspired by one of the greatest composers - Einstein and Mozart.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

"Wagner's music is much better than it sounds" -Bill Nye (It's just hilarious to imagine the guy with the bowtie and labcoat saying it in his show)


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## progmatist (Apr 3, 2021)

At its core, music is mathematical. Studies have shown children who receive music education excel in math and science.


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## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

Many (like the Pythagoreans) thought Everything was mathematical at the core.  
Depending on what one actually works in, economics is often more mathematical than biology. So should economists be more into music than zoologists or medical doctors?  
And is classical music more "mathematical" than pop, rock, jazz?


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## mmsbls (Mar 6, 2011)

I have a Ph.D. in physics but didn't move from pop/rock to classical until my 30s and 40s. Probably helped that my wife is a violinist. Obviously anecdotal stories don't mean much, but many more physicists that I knew were interested in classical music than non-scientists I knew. I'm not sure what I think about the link between music and math, but I certainly never felt a link between the two except theoretically.


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## msmmsm (Mar 12, 2021)

I wonder if it is just physics and math - do university English professors, for example, or Sociology, or Biology professors also hit that 50% mark? I suspect yes, but do not know.


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

progmatist said:


> At its core, music is mathematical. Studies have shown children who receive music education excel in math and science.


I'm not surprised, but I doubt this has anything to do with the mathematical nature of music. Seems more likely to me that music education, which for a child generally means learning an instrument, requires significant levels of discipline, concentration, and self-motivation, yielding an understanding of what slow incremental progress can accomplish. Those qualities are likely correlated with success in just about every field.


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## msmmsm (Mar 12, 2021)

complicated - as most behavioral science questions are, multifactorial. a good answer often is "choice e - all of the above".


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

mmsbls said:


> I have a Ph.D. in physics but didn't move from pop/rock to classical until my 30s and 40s. Probably helped that my wife is a violinist. Obviously anecdotal stories don't mean much, but many more physicists that I knew were interested in classical music than non-scientists I knew. I'm not sure what I think about the link between music and math, but I certainly never felt a link between the two except theoretically.


Since you were a physicist did you know more physicists than non-scientists?

I have heard about a link between music and math; not sure it is real.

Music is also about time; some consider music an alternative method of marking the passage of time. And an interesting tangental observation is that if you are enjoying a piece of music, that might be considered long, you'd feel as though the hour (or what ever it was) was shorter.


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## BachIsBest (Feb 17, 2018)

Kreisler jr said:


> The gen pop does not seem the appropriate comparison. One needs to compare the science professors with e.g. lawyers, medical doctors, economic consultants, archaeology professors, parsons, high school principals, higher level administrators, i.e. other (upper) middle class college/grad school educated people.
> I have also lots of anecdotal evidence for people who eventually received maths/science/eng degrees or PhDs and played classical music semiprofessionally or at a very high amateur level in their youth (or throughout). But not enough to guess if there are more of them in science than in medicine or humanities.


Sure, yes. However, I think if 50% of upper middle class college educated people liked classical music, it would be impossible for classical music listenership amongst the general population to be below 5%, as upper middle class college educated describes over 10% of the population.

As more anecdotal evidence, I know a number of Engineers and none of them particularly like classical music. Anyhow, we can anecdotal evidence each other to death on such a subject, with no real data easily available.


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## mmsbls (Mar 6, 2011)

SanAntone said:


> Since you were a physicist did you know more physicists than non-scientists?


For some of my life I spent most of time among physicists, but in general I've known more non-scientists than scientists.


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## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

BachIsBest said:


> Sure, yes. However, I think if 50% of upper middle class college educated people liked classical music, it would be impossible for classical music listenership amongst the general population to be below 5%, as upper middle class college educated describes over 10% of the population.
> 
> As more anecdotal evidence, I know a number of Engineers and none of them particularly like classical music. Anyhow, we can anecdotal evidence each other to death on such a subject, with no real data easily available.


Exactly. One would also have to distinguish between people playing classical music at a fairly high level or those only listening, or as mentioned above, only getting into classical music in their 30s or later, years after their scientific studies. The US is probably different and it might also be a generational thing but in Europe it seems far more a certain milieu, i.e. usually people whose parents were already academics/(upper) middle class and into classical music. 
Of course the strong tendency towards listening to classical and forcing piano or violin lessons on kids might be fading but it was still fairly strong when I was a kid in the 1980s. Therefore I am doubtful of the particular association with science. I knew a guy who played almost professionally violin as a teenager (playing in a state youth orchestra, many members of which become professional musicians) but mostly focussed on maths and got a math PhD. One of his brothers is an engineer/software businessman, the other a physics professor. But for all I know (not well as I hardly know the brothers) none of the other brothers played an instrument, certainly nowhere close to semi-professional. 
When I think of other kids in my high school in the late 1980s who were into classical and/or played an instrument decently well, I can think of one who became a physicist (father was a chemist), another who got into economics (parents were language teachers) and one girl who failed so badly at science that she had to leave our school but was a very good pianist (father was a theology professor). So from my recollections and anecdotes I don't really see the pattern with classical music and science.


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