# The railing against Lang Lang and Yuja Wang... how much due to racism against Asians?



## Albert7

Yep, I know that it's time to dig up another potentially explosive topic... I know that a lot of people hate Lang Lang and Yuja Wang due to "showmanship" and "copycat-ness." With the spate of Asian musicians, I am curious whether the "conservative" nature of classical music culture sees this buckling the trend of the European musician-ship with new faces?

Is the aversion to their approach due to potential racism? Interestingly enough, half-Asians such as Alice Sara Ott or Arabella Steinbacher don't incur the same criticism as the musicians from mainland China.

Opinions?


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## Art Rock

I doubt whether racism plays a role. Asian classical musicians have been around for decades, fully accepted, and quite a number very successful, also in terms of critics (e.g. Ozawa, Yo Yo Ma, Uchida). For Lang Lang, I can agree with a lot of criticisms on the way he plays (including his facial expressions), for Yuja Wang, more than racism, a puritan streak in some people will probably play a role.


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## KenOC

I don't see any of this. There was a bit when the Tokyo Quartet first came out: "Japanese? How can they possibly understand late Beethoven?" But nothing like that for years.


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## Albert7

KenOC said:


> I don't see any of this. There was a bit when the Tokyo Quartet first came out: "Japanese? How can they possibly understand late Beethoven?" But nothing like that for years.


Good point... perhaps it's the new generation of Asian classical players who won't follow the "meek" or "understated" expectations of the listeners that audiences have not taken a liking to?

Yo-Yo Ma is very much accepted in the classical world and universally loved. But he is part of the older generation of Asian classical musicians who shows his emotions in an understated manner.

Lang Lang on the other hand is much younger and he is wanting to depict his experience in a more gutsy way.

Still the YouTube comments about Lang Lang tend towards the racist I have noticed.


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## Albert7

Sample YouTube comment about Lang Lang:

"Lang Lang is a clown. Stupid facial expressions and no understanding of the music. People should watch Lorenzo Soules play the mighty Brahms Concerto No. 2 - he sits so quietly at the piano, even in big virtuoso passages, and lets his playing do the talking. Lang Lang is a trained monkey in comparison.﻿"


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## Headphone Hermit

^^^ I see nothing in that quote that is 'racist'. 

Severely critical - yes .... but that in itself is not racist


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## Nereffid

Of course there are racists (and misogynists, and every other kind of *sshole) posting comments on YouTube, but I can't imagine they're representative of classical music listeners as a whole, are they? Or is the world even worse than I thought it was?


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## shadowdancer

I wonder how long this thread will last. Anyway, I will drop my two cents here before it is closed.
There is nothing related to racism. Really!
The Tokyo String Quartet, Ozawa and Uchida are absolutely the most clear examples. Can someone argue about their quality as musicians?
On the side note, I really don't care about faces and smiles while playing. I care about the music. When someone talk about Wang, Lang Lang, Yundi Li and even Dudamel and gives as argument "faces" and "hairs" I just ignore it. 
In summary: everybody can write critical statements about them. But let's talk about music and nothing else. This has nothing to do with racism.


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## Skilmarilion

Lang Lang may be the most popular classical musician around. In mainstream circles his playing has received enormous praise, and he is often lauded as a 'genius'. 

Any criticism of his playing does not appear to have much to do with race (from that which I've read). Calling his facial expressions "stupid" can be just a case of telling it like it is -- It is not racist in the same way that, if he were homosexual, such comments could not be homophobic; if he were a woman, the comments could not be sexist, etc. 

The Alice Sara Ott example is interesting -- if she were as well-known as Lang Lang (which she isn't right now), she may have received similar criticism to Lang Lang, since she also plays a lot of 'show-off' repertoire with a lot of bravado and a lot of self-indulgence (simply, not to Lang Lang extremes).

The fact that she's utterly gorgeous may have helped fend off such naysayers for now. :tiphat:


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## GioCar

Li Yundi was born the same year of Lang Lang, he is 100% Chinese, he lives in Beijing.

Talent, not racism.


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## Mahlerian

Nereffid said:


> Of course there are racists (and misogynists, and every other kind of *sshole) posting comments on YouTube, but I can't imagine they're representative of classical music listeners as a whole, are they? Or is the world even worse than I thought it was?


I wouldn't say it constitutes a majority, or perhaps not even a sizable minority, but certainly it does exist.

As much as I don't particularly care for Lang Lang's interpretations, I have to admit that this Amazon review is over the line, even as "humor":

http://www.amazon.com/review/RHZWK4S91LFA4/ref=cm_cr_pr_perm?ie=UTF8&ASIN=B00MEZMBPG

Elsewhere, another person in the comments to a review refers to "oriental circus performers".

If they are bad (or good!) musicians, their ethnicity has nothing to do with it, so there's no reason to bring it up, especially in such a derogatory fashion.


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## Albert7

Mahlerian said:


> I wouldn't say it constitutes a majority, or perhaps not even a sizable minority, but certainly it does exist.
> 
> As much as I don't particularly care for Lang Lang's interpretations, I have to admit that this Amazon review is over the line, even as "humor":
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/review/RHZWK4S91LFA4/ref=cm_cr_pr_perm?ie=UTF8&ASIN=B00MEZMBPG
> 
> Elsewhere, another person in the comments to a review refers to "oriental circus performers".
> 
> If they are bad (or good!) musicians, their ethnicity has nothing to do with it, so there's no reason to bring it up, especially in such a derogatory fashion.


Indeed I agree... I am not the biggest fan of Lang Lang but I note the spate of comments about ethnicity for him... it's not like we mention Horowitz as a Caucasian performer in most cases... I think that the classical music fans who react in this fashion perhaps are fearful of Asians over-running the classical music world. Or fearful? Irrational yes but that enmity is still there.


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## Jos

I very much enjoyed Yuja Wang's performance of Shostakovich first pianoconcerto. It was on Dutch tv a few months ago, televised at concertgebouw. Great playing, some of the faster parts were almost jazzy, and a great exhibit of joyful playing.
The slower parts were moving. A great performance.

This has nothing to do with the fact that I'm a big fan of high heels, designer dresses and short haired women, let alone racism.

Kyung Wha Chung has also been a fav, Tokyo string quartet. Talent, as GioCar said, talent indeed.


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## Figleaf

albertfallickwang said:


> Sample YouTube comment about Lang Lang:
> 
> "Lang Lang is a clown. Stupid facial expressions and no understanding of the music. People should watch Lorenzo Soules play the mighty Brahms Concerto No. 2 - he sits so quietly at the piano, even in big virtuoso passages, and lets his playing do the talking. Lang Lang is a trained monkey in comparison.﻿"


Would you mind pointing out what in that comment is racist, as opposed to simply rude? It wouldn't surprise me if you were right about this issue, as white people can be deaf to more subtle instances of racism even while they theoretically disapprove of it.


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## Albert7

Figleaf said:


> Would you mind pointing out what in that comment is racist, as opposed to simply rude? It wouldn't surprise me if you were right about this issue, as white people can be deaf to more subtle instances of racism even while they theoretically disapprove of it.


trained monkey is very derogatory in fact... that term has historical racist overtones.

http://www.racialslurs.com/search/monkeys

Here is it contextualized to a use of subservience (sp?) here... a parrot but there are definitely African-American-ish overtones to me.

Ironic that the poster used that to refer to an Asian but I think that the guy was trying to put Asians into a mechanical and soul-less animal.


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## Figleaf

albertfallickwang said:


> trained monkey is very derogatory in fact... that term has historical racist overtones.
> 
> http://www.racialslurs.com/search/monkeys
> 
> Here is it contextualized to a use of subservience (sp?) here... a parrot but there are definitely African-American-ish overtones to me.
> 
> Ironic that the poster used that to refer to an Asian but I think that the guy was trying to put Asians into a mechanical and soul-less animal.


Thank you for that. I hadn't heard that 'monkey' could refer to Asians. Here it used to be a favourite taunt of soccer hooligans for Afro Caribbean players.


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## Albert7

Figleaf said:


> Thank you for that. I hadn't heard that 'monkey' could refer to Asians. Here it used to be a favourite taunt of soccer hooligans for Afro Caribbean players.


Yeah... being Asian I'm pretty sensitive to all the racial epithets applied to me during elementary school and middle school.  Thank goodness I don't live there anymore.


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## shadowdancer

// Off topic = init
A bit off topic, but there is reference of the racist use of the word "monkey" to Asian race at James Clavell's novel Shogun. The priests (portuguese in this case) refer to Lord Toranaga as "monkey". For further reference:
".... This is merely a business arrangement between you, me and this monkey..."
// Off topic = end


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## Figleaf

albertfallickwang said:


> Yeah... being Asian I'm pretty sensitive to all the racial epithets applied to me during elementary school and middle school.  Thank goodness I don't live there anymore.


I'm sorry to hear that you had such a bad experience at school.  It's important to challenge racism when we see it, so thank you for this thread.


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## Albert7

Figleaf said:


> I'm sorry to hear that you had such a bad experience at school.  It's important to challenge racism when we see it, so thank you for this thread.


Actually racial epithets didn't bother me as much as the motorcycle bikers from my speech communication class who stuffed me in a locker (surprisingly I fit) within the high school hallway and locking me up. I will never forget that nightmare.


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## Headphone Hermit

Figleaf said:


> I'm sorry to hear that you had such a bad experience at school.  It's important to challenge racism when we see it, so thank you for this thread.


absolutely correct - we should not tolerate racism

However, I cannot see that the quote Albert posted *is* racist. Dissing Lang Lang for is antics is not inherently racist


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## StlukesguildOhio

Yep, I know that it's time to dig up another potentially explosive topic... I know that a lot of people hate Lang Lang and Yuja Wang due to "showmanship" and "copycat-ness." With the spate of Asian musicians, I am curious whether the "conservative" nature of classical music culture sees this buckling the trend of the European musician-ship with new faces?

I suppose there are some who are biased against other races, nationalities, genders, sexual orientations, etc... but I doubt that this is what is the issue with Lang Lang or Yuja Wang. I not familiar enough with Yuja's performances to make any judgment, but I agree with the suggestion of the possibility of a certain Puritanism at work. We've already seen that here... with those individuals who have a problem with a woman (or man?) bringing sexuality to play in classical music... and/or using sexuality as a marketing tool. I suspect there may be those uncomfortable with someone stepping outside of the stereotype of the proper classical music performer... or the proper Asian.

Having said that, are not Masaaki Suzuki, Sarah Chang, the Tokyo String Quartet, the Bach Collegium Tokyo, Mitsuko Uchida, Kyung-wha Chung, Myung-whun Chung, Yo-Yo Ma, etc... all well respected Asian musicians?


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## Figleaf

albertfallickwang said:


> Actually racial epithets didn't bother me as much as the motorcycle bikers from my speech communication class who stuffed me in a locker (surprisingly I fit) within the high school hallway and locking me up. I will never forget that nightmare.


OMG, that's awful. I had some pretty bad experiences of verbal and physical bullying (not racist) in a sink school I was at for five years, but then I went to a grammar school and had no problems at all. I suppose that illustrates the difference between thuggish behaviour in general and racism in particular: a white person might get hassled in some circumstances but the trouble is unlikely to follow them from place to place, whereas an ethnic minority person always has a potential target on their back, so to speak. That's why it's important to insist on the unacceptable nature of racist attitudes in society at large instead of expecting those who are victimised to give their tormentors the benefit of the doubt if the racism has the smallest bit of plausible deniability.


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## StlukesguildOhio

Still the YouTube comments about Lang Lang tend towards the racist I have noticed.

Consider the source, Albert. Then read some of the comments posted to videos of various female operatic singers. You may just be shocked at how vile some can be in insulting the abilities of a singer they don't like in favor of one they do.


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## StlukesguildOhio

I really don't care about faces and smiles while playing. I care about the music. When someone talk about Wang, Lang Lang, Yundi Li and even Dudamel and gives as argument "faces" and "hairs" I just ignore it.

Indeed. Stokowski had some of the most wild hair out there... to say nothing of Beethoven, Wagner's ridiculous mutton-chops, and Bach's wigs.


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## Figleaf

Headphone Hermit said:


> absolutely correct - we should not tolerate racism
> 
> However, I cannot see that the quote Albert posted *is* racist. Dissing Lang Lang for is antics is not inherently racist


That's why I queried it, and got the answer that 'monkey' can be a racist epithet for Asians. It's also probably possible to interpret it as simply insulting, without an explicit undertone of racism.

In YouTube comments I have often come across antisemitic and homophobic comments, but there are many more encouraging counterexamples to set against the stereotype of the bigoted YouTube troll. I've often seen neglected performers discussed more knowledgeably and civilly on Youtube than the critical establishment is wont to discuss them, if it bothers to do so at all.


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## Headphone Hermit

Figleaf said:


> can be


yup, I read that, but '*can be'* is not the same as '*is*'


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## DavidA

It's not racism, just the sheer stupidly of certain idiots who have stereotyped images of what classical pianists should be and how they should act. Glenn Gould picked up these sorts of comments as well from the pathetic morons whose lack of humour is only matched by their lack of talent. While I'm not the biggest fan of Lang Lang (he's one pianist absent from my library) I say if he brings in the punters good luck to him! He is a tremendous technician and a great talent. As for Yuja Wang her pianism is very fine and unmannered. But she dares to wear miniskirts! Oh horrors! So what? If you're offended look away and just enjoy the playing


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## Albert7

DavidA said:


> It's not racism, just the sheer stupidly of certain idiots who have stereotyped images of what classical pianists should be and how they should act. Glenn Gould picked up these sorts of comments as well from the pathetic morons whose lack of humour is only matched by their lack of talent. While I'm not the biggest fan of Lang Lang (he's one pianist absent from my library) I say if he brings in the punters good luck to him! He is a tremendous technician and a great talent. As for Yuja Wang her pianism is very fine and unmannered. But she dares to wear miniskirts! Oh horrors! So what? If you're offended look away and just enjoy the playing


Man, you are right on point... I agree with you here. I'm not the biggest fan at all of Lang Lang but I support his efforts regardless. I don't even agree with his underlying style but still I am hoping for more critical discussion about him, not just dismissive pooh pooh.


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## Figleaf

Headphone Hermit said:


> yup, I read that, but '*can be'* is not the same as '*is*'


Sure, but I just wonder if I'm the best judge of whether something is subtly racist towards people of Chinese heritage or not. I mean, I thought Jeremy Clarkson's 'There's a slope on that bridge' remark was totally innocuous until the double meaning was pointed out in the media poop storm that followed. And that creep still has a job and a public platform in spite of multiple intentional 'gaffes' of that nature- so I would say that regardless of the subtext of a particular YouTube comment, society still has a problem.


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## Skilmarilion

DavidA said:


> It's not racism, just the sheer stupidly of certain idiots who have stereotyped images of what classical pianists should be and how they should act. Glenn Gould picked up these sorts of comments as well from the pathetic morons whose lack of humour is only matched by their lack of talent.


I think Lang Lang is absolutely superb for classical music, and of course he has unbelievable talent. I actually enjoy a few of his recordings too, and at times find his interpretations quite interesting.

Having said that, he is often *unwatchable*. Given that live performance is a rather big deal for an artist of his stature and reach, that's a big problem. His facial expressions are often so ridiculous, exaggerated beyond belief and for the sake of simply 'putting on a show', and on occasions not even relevant to the passage he is playing (i.e. there is no way a bog-standard passage in a Mozart sonata could induce that kind of physical response from anyone unless they were joking around).

Of course going by your post, does having such an opinion make someone an "idiot" or "pathetic moron with a lack of humour"?


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## Sloe

Were can I see Lang Lang making ridiculous facial expressions?
He smiles sometimes does that make him a clown?


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## Skilmarilion

Sloe said:


> Were can I see Lang Lang making ridiculous facial expressions?
> He smiles sometimes does that make him a clown?


See 1:45 (and beyond ...) :


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## DavidA

Skilmarilion said:


> I think Lang Lang is absolutely superb for classical music, and of course he has unbelievable talent. I actually enjoy a few of his recordings too, and at times find his interpretations quite interesting.
> 
> Having said that, he is often *unwatchable*. Given that live performance is a rather big deal for an artist of his stature and reach, that's a big problem. His facial expressions are often so ridiculous, exaggerated beyond belief and for the sake of simply 'putting on a show', and on occasions not even relevant to the passage he is playing (i.e. there is no way a bog-standard passage in a Mozart sonata could induce that kind of physical response from anyone unless they were joking around).
> 
> Of course going by your post, having such an opinion would make me an "idiot" or "pathetic moron with a lack of humour"?


No. The idiots and morons are those who just go on about his mannerisms. Like certain people used to rail against Gould sitiiting and swaying on his pigmy stool, with facial expressions (and humming) accompanying the dizzying pianism. Such people are not interested in music - only mannerisms. I think as an older generation (me anyway) we often look down on the 'excesses' of youth who see things through different eyes. I still remember the vitriol heaped on a young du Pre for her 'excessive' expression.


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## Headphone Hermit

Figleaf said:


> Sure, but I just wonder if I'm the best judge of whether something is subtly racist towards people of Chinese heritage or not. I mean, I thought Jeremy Clarkson's 'There's a slope on that bridge' remark was totally innocuous until the double meaning was pointed out in the media poop storm that followed. And that creep still has a job and a public platform in spite of multiple intentional 'gaffes' of that nature- so I would say that regardless of the subtext of a particular YouTube comment, society still has a problem.


Yup. Agree with your points here - but still remain to be convinced that the quote as used *was* racist. The evidence is less than convincing as yet, I'm afraid


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## Sloe

Skilmarilion said:


> See 1:45 (and beyond ...) :


Thank you.
I agree that was too much.


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## Figleaf

DavidA said:


> No. The idiots and morons are those who just go on about his mannerisms. Like certain people used to rail against Gould sitiiting and swaying on his pigmy stool, with facial expressions (and humming) accompanying the dizzying pianism. Such people are not interested in music - only mannerisms. I think as an older generation (me anyway) we often look down on the 'excesses' of youth who see things through different eyes. I still remember the vitriol heaped on a young du Pre for her 'excessive' expression.


Isn't that always the way with the more self consciously flamboyant performers? Some people are charmed by displays of showmanship and some people are irked. No need to call those in the latter camp idiots and morons, surely?


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## Albert7

DavidA said:


> No. The idiots and morons are those who just go on about his mannerisms. Like certain people used to rail against Gould sitiiting and swaying on his pigmy stool, with facial expressions (and humming) accompanying the dizzying pianism. Such people are not interested in music - only mannerisms. I think as an older generation (me anyway) we often look down on the 'excesses' of youth who see things through different eyes. I still remember the vitriol heaped on a young du Pre for her 'excessive' expression.


And did critics sling mud against Lizst's ethnicity during his time? I would be curious.


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## Woodduck

albertfallickwang said:


> And did critics sling mud against Lizst's ethnicity during his time? I would be curious.


I'm not aware that being Hungarian has ever counted against anyone not fighting with Romania over Transylvania. Liszt's showmanship, on the other hand, got him plenty of attention. That was the point, wasn't it? Who knows to what extent he "acted out" the music he was playing? I would strongly doubt, however, that it had the appearance of coyness, winking confidentiality, or telling a story to preschoolers, which are some of the attitudes that Lang Lang conveys in the course of a single sonata of Mozart.

Lang Lang is still fairly young, looks even younger, and may be able to get away with his Mickey Mouse Club persona for a while longer. Eventually it won't be cute.


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## elgar's ghost

Don't watch him - just hear him. Then judge.

Did anyone slag off Jimi Hendrix when he gurned while playing guitar?


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## Albert7

elgars ghost said:


> Don't watch him - just hear him. Then judge.
> 
> Did anyone slag off Jimi Hendrix when he gurned while playing guitar?


Indeed... I bet that a lot of people if they listened into only the audio portion may have a different idea?

Not sure but still speculative.


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## Albert7

Listening test... which do you like better?






or


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## Albert7

The interesting story of parental child abuse of Lang Lang:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/music/classicalmusic/11082975/Lang-Lang-interview-Parents-should-not-be-pushy.html


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## Triplets

I look forward to the day when a performer can be criticized for some quirk and no one has to be worried about being labeled a racist.


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## Albert7

Triplets said:


> I look forward to the day when a performer can be criticized for some quirk and no one has to be worried about being labeled a racist.


Me too... by the way, I'm Asian and not the biggest fan at all of Lang Lang. But I know how to separate race from his playing style.

Yuja Wang is incredible however. My gosh. Her playing floors an audience easily.


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## Guest

I think it has more to do with their superficial interpretations and their stage appearances: he acts like a clown, she dresses like a hooker.


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## Albert7

Kontrapunctus said:


> I think it has more to do with their superficial interpretations and their stage appearances: he acts like a clown, she dresses like a hooker.


The question is why do people think that they have superficial interpretations? Any examples?


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## Bulldog

Kontrapunctus said:


> I think it has more to do with their superficial interpretations and their stage appearances: he acts like a clown, she dresses like a hooker.


That hooker stuff is ridiculous. I've seen plenty of hookers out on the streets over the decades, and none of them looked like Yuja Wang.


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## Becca

Skilmarilion said:


> Having said that, he is often *unwatchable*. Given that live performance is a rather big deal for an artist of his stature and reach, that's a big problem. His facial expressions are often so ridiculous, exaggerated beyond belief and for the sake of simply 'putting on a show', and on occasions not even relevant to the passage he is playing (i.e. there is no way a bog-standard passage in a Mozart sonata could induce that kind of physical response from anyone unless they were joking around).


I know that some regular concertgoers insist on sitting on the keyboard side of the auditorium - not to see the hands but so that they don't have to see the face!


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## Albert7

Bulldog said:


> That hooker stuff is ridiculous. I've seen plenty of hookers out on the streets over the decades, and none of them looked like Yuja Wang.


Natalie Portman on Cosmo mag cover with short skirt and nearly topless = no issues
Yuja Wang with short skirt and some long top = tons of issues?

Different strokes for different folks? 

Not sure why each is different?


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## Ajayay

I've heard some fairly respected musicians allege that racism does play a role with Lang Lang, in the sense of Westerners somehow feeling that classical music is "theirs" and what could someone from China possibly understand of it? Maybe there is an element of that in some quarters but I think it's quite unfair because he immersed himself in classical music and culture and made enormous efforts to learn about it and understand its context. 
I think the faces and contortions don't help him because he looks silly by comparison to the sombre performance practice that established itself in the 20th century - you know, the ritualistic unearthing of fossils with great reverence and dignity and then putting them away again before anyone gets too excited. But then Liszt was the biggest show-off of them all - at least Lang Lang doesn't pretend to faint!
I think some of his playing is wide of the mark sometimes. There are one or two videos of him playing La Campanella in which he really does a poor job, but then there are examples of sheer brilliance like the Don Juan fantasy at Carnegie Hall which was outstanding. I like him and I admire the wonderful work he does to bring music to people and to support music education.


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## Sloe

Albert7 said:


> Natalie Portman on Cosmo mag cover with short skirt and nearly topless = no issues
> Yuja Wang with short skirt and some long top = tons of issues?
> 
> Different strokes for different folks?
> 
> Not sure why each is different?


I have no personal interest in Natalie Portman but Natalie Portman is an actress and works in the entertainment of the eye while Yuja Wang as a pianist works in the entertainment of the ear. Therefore it is more normal for an actress to show herself while you are supposed to just listen to Yujas piano playing and not care of who is playing and therefore other can see how she dresses as a distractment.


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## Albert7

Ajayay said:


> I've heard some fairly respected musicians allege that racism does play a role with Lang Lang, in the sense of Westerners somehow feeling that classical music is "theirs" and what could someone from China possibly understand of it? Maybe there is an element of that in some quarters but I think it's quite unfair because he immersed himself in classical music and culture and made enormous efforts to learn about it and understand its context.
> I think the faces and contortions don't help him because he looks silly by comparison to the sombre performance practice that established itself in the 20th century - you know, the ritualistic unearthing of fossils with great reverence and dignity and then putting them away again before anyone gets too excited. But then Liszt was the biggest show-off of them all - at least Lang Lang doesn't pretend to faint!
> I think some of his playing is wide of the mark sometimes. There are one or two videos of him playing La Campanella in which he really does a poor job, but then there are examples of sheer brilliance like the Don Juan fantasy at Carnegie Hall which was outstanding. I like him and I admire the wonderful work he does to bring music to people and to support music education.


Indeed, I agree with there. Lang Lang works well with Lizst and is just plain awful with Bartok (wince wince). What is important is to recognize that even other great artists like Artur Rubenstein and Vladimir Horowitz were inconsistent too. Why Lang Lang is singled out is key here in fact. Some of it is due to racism but some of it is due to just plain bad playing from him. I doubt that he is a scholarly pianist like in the way that the beloved Helene Grimaud does for every piece she touches.


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## StlukesguildOhio

Natalie Portman on Cosmo mag cover with short skirt and nearly topless = no issues
Yuja Wang with short skirt and some long top = tons of issues?

Not long ago... perhaps before you had joined TC... there was a huge debate concerning this CD cover:










Many were outraged at the manner in which the artist brought sexuality into the sacrosanct realm of classical music... or used sexuality as a means of marketing. There is an expectation held by a good number as to the proper manner of behavior and dress required of the serious classical musician.

Of course we always have Julie d'Aubigny, also known as Mademoiselle Maupin:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Julie_d%27Aubigny


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## StlukesguildOhio

Albert, one question I would ask you is what do you think makes Lang Lang so special that I, or anyone else should seek out his work? Consider that most of his recorded oeuvre consists of one more recording of works from the core repertoire that already have been brilliantly recorded by any number of pianists. Before I seek out another recording of the same old works by Chopin or Rachmaninoff I need to be convinced that I am being offered something new... different... or spectacular beyond what I already have.

The one disc with Lang Lang that I do have features him as part of a trio (with Vadim Repin and Mischa Maisky) performing a body of music that I don't have in multiple versions:










Perhaps this trio recording is not as fluid as that of Rubinstein, Heifetz, and Piatigorsky, but it certainly is worth hearing.


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## Albert7

Indeed with the huge difference that Lang Lang plays a lot more consistently than Lara St. John does.

In fact, Yuja's covers are pretty tame by comparison... all we get is this:


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## Albert7

StlukesguildOhio said:


> Albert, one question I would ask you is what do you think makes Lang Lang so special that I, or anyone else should seek out his work? Consider that most of his recorded oeuvre consists of one more recording of works from the core repertoire that already have been brilliantly recorded by any number of pianists. Before I seek out another recording of the same old works by Chopin or Rachmaninoff I need to be convinced that I am being offered something new... different... or spectacular beyond what I already have.
> 
> The one disc with Lang Lang that I do have features him as part of a trio (with Vadim Repin and Mischa Maisky) performing a body of music that I don't have in multiple versions:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Perhaps this trio recording is not as fluid as that of Rubinstein, Heifetz, and Piatigorsky, but it certainly is worth hearing.


I think that Lang Lang is special for at least two discs that you need to have here:















The Dragon Songs is a must have album in any collection I must say.


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## echo

i think the underlying question is - why don't westerners play eastern classical music ?


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## Marschallin Blair

StlukesguildOhio said:


> Natalie Portman on Cosmo mag cover with short skirt and nearly topless = no issues
> Yuja Wang with short skirt and some long top = tons of issues?
> 
> Not long ago... perhaps before you had joined TC... there was a huge debate concerning this CD cover:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Many were outraged at the manner in which the artist brought sexuality into the sacrosanct realm of classical music... or used sexuality as a means of marketing. There is an expectation held by a good number as to the proper manner of behavior and dress required of the serious classical musician.
> 
> Of course we always have Julie d'Aubigny, also known as Mademoiselle Maupin:
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Julie_d%27Aubigny


There will always be those corn-and-hog belt types who are full of passionate conviction that boudoirish revels must be put down.

_L'envie est une inferiorite qui s'avoue. _


----------



## Albert7

echo said:


> i think the underlying question is - why don't westerners play eastern classical music ?


Because they lack interest there in most cases. However we do get the rare exception once in awhile:









And you could argue that Morton Feldman/John Cage are Easterner classical music. Not in the traditional Western mode in many ways.


----------



## echo

Albert7 said:


> Because they lack interest there in most cases. However we do get the rare exception once in awhile:
> 
> View attachment 66120
> 
> 
> And you could argue that Morton Feldman/John Cage are Easterner classical music. Not in the traditional Western mode in many ways.


really ? --- isn't that a racist stereo type


----------



## echo

^ isn't it ???????????????


----------



## StlukesguildOhio

Albert, when it comes to Tchakovsky's first I have the following:

Van Cliburn/Kondrashin- American/Russian
Sviatoslav Richter/Karajan- Soviet Ukranian/Austro-Germanic
Emil Gilels/Maazel- Soviet Ukranian/Jewish-American
Matha Argeric/Abbado- Argentine/Italian
Horowitz/Toscanini- Soviet Ukranian/Italian

What could Lang Lang possibly bring to bear that rivals these? Honestly, Barenboim, whom I find insufferably boring, is enough to turn me away from your first recording.

As for the Mendelssohn, I've never been sold on it being a truly major work. I have the Serkin/Ormandy recording... and if I were to entertain the idea of picking up a second version I'd probably look into the Schiff recording of both concertos, or the Stephen Hough:










The Dragon Songs, disc, on the other hand, strikes me as quite intriguing...










I will certainly add it to my "Wish List"

Now if I were to base my purchasing upon nationality, Masaaki Suzuki & Mitsuko Uchida are two Asian performers by whom I would purchase nearly everything. But I don't care the least about the nationality of the performers... only the talent.


----------



## Albert7

echo said:


> really ? --- isn't that a racist stereo type


Well I looked for example recordings of Takemitsu and mostly it's Easterners who are playing that composer for example. Tan Dun another example with Yo-Yo Ma... Lang Lang has his Dragon Songs album...

Exception is on Alisa Weilerstein's latest album where she plays some Eastern music.


----------



## Albert7

StlukesguildOhio said:


> Albert, when it comes to Tchakovsky's first I have the following:
> 
> Van Cliburn/Kondrashin
> Sviatoslav Richter/Karajan
> Emil Gilels/Maazel
> Matha Argeric/Abbado
> Horowitz/Toscanini
> 
> What could Lang Lang possibly bring to bear that rivals these? Honestly, Barenboim, whom I find insufferably boring, is enough to turn me away from your first recording.
> 
> As for the Mendelssohn, I've never been sold on it being a truly major work. I have the Serkin/Ormandy recording... and if I were to entertain the idea of picking up a second version I'd probably look into the Schiff recording of both concertos, or the Stephen Hough:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Dragon Songs, disc, on the other hand, strikes me as quite intriguing...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I will certainly add it to my "Wish List"
> 
> Now if I were to base my purchasing upon nationality, Masaaki Suzuki & Mitsuko Uchida are two Asian performers by whom I would purchase nearly everything.


I agree with you on the first assessment indeed... Lang Lang isn't better than Argerich but it's still an awesome performance. The latter disc is just awesome and the pieces are able to floor me accordingly.


----------



## echo

Albert7 said:


> Well I looked for example recordings of Takemitsu and mostly it's Easterners who are playing that composer for example. Tan Dun another example with Yo-Yo Ma... Lang Lang has his Dragon Songs album...
> 
> Exception is on Alisa Weilerstein's latest album where she plays some Eastern music.


that wasn't the question


----------



## echo

yaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaawwwwwwwwwwnnnnnnnnnn


----------



## Albert7

echo said:


> yaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaawwwwwwwwwwnnnnnnnnnn


you were asking about racist stereotypes but I wasn't entirely sure what you meant by that?


----------



## StlukesguildOhio

Albert... let's raise another question. You have suggested that some listeners have suggested that Lang Lang... and Asian performers in general... don't "get" Western music. But haven't there been similar biases for quite some time. For example, isn't there the idea that French or Italian (or even Russian) conductors/orchestras are not the best suited to Austro/Germanic music? Don't we often find the notion that (with some exceptions) French music is not best served by Austro/Germanic orchestras/conductors? How many performances of Italian opera or Italian Baroque music are best served by Russian or Scandinavian or American performers?

Rather than racism, is there not something of a national/cultural tradition that musicians/performers/artists of all walks align themselves with early on? 

Perhaps this is a question in search of its own thread?

Most of my recordings of Debussy and Ravel and are by French performers and conductors: Cluytens, Plasson, Gens, Georges Pretre, Georges Nore, Bavouzet, Boulez, Dutoit (French Swiss), Pascal Rogé, Jean Martinon, Ernest Ansermet (French Swiss), Sandrine Piau, Mady Mesplé, Gerard Souzay, Philippe Jaroussky

The same is true of Rameau: Marcelle Meyer, Marc Minkowski, William Christie (American born French Citizen), Alexandre Tharaud, Les Musiciens du Louvre, Veronique Gens, Christophe Rousset, Patricia Petibon, etc...

Again... there are always exceptions. Jordi Savall's performances of Rameau are second to none. Sir Thomas Beecham was a brilliant champion of French music... as was Colin Davis.


----------



## Albert7

StlukesguildOhio said:


> Albert... let's raise another question. You have suggested that some listeners have suggested that Lang Lang... and Asian performers in general... don't "get" Western music. But haven't there been similar biases for quite some time. For example, isn't there the idea that French or Italian (or even Russian) conductors/orchestras are not the best suited to Austro/Germanic music? Don't we often find the notion that (with some exceptions) French music is not best served by Austro/Germanic orchestras/conductors? How many performances of Italian opera or Italian Baroque music are best served by Russian or Scandinavian or American performers?
> 
> Rather than racism, is there not something of a national/cultural tradition that musicians/performers/artists of all walks align themselves with early on?
> 
> Perhaps this is a question in search of its own thread?
> 
> Most of my recordings of Debussy and Ravel and are by French performers and conductors: Cluytens, Plasson, Gens, Georges Pretre, Georges Nore, Bavouzet, Boulez, Dutoit (French Swiss), Pascal Rogé, Jean Martinon, Ernest Ansermet (French Swiss), Sandrine Piau, Mady Mesplé, Gerard Souzay, Philippe Jaroussky
> 
> The same is true of Rameau: Marcelle Meyer, Marc Minkowski, William Christie (American born French Citizen), Alexandre Tharaud, Les Musiciens du Louvre, Veronique Gens, Christophe Rousset, Patricia Petibon, etc...
> 
> Again... there are always exceptions. Jordi Savall's performances of Rameau are second to none. Sir Thomas Beecham was a brilliant champion of French music... as was Colin Davis.


I agree and this would be another topic entirely worth exploring... here I'm trying to figure out the vituperative comments specific to Lang Lang and Yuja Wang.

Right now I'm listening to For Philip Guston and it is moving that a noisy crazy Bronx Jewish guy could compose some of the sublime Eastern-sounding music and he isn't even Asian. He bridged that gap between Eastern and Western cultures rather succinctly.

Or perhaps it's possible. Or maybe I don't know what I am talking about? :\


----------



## hpowders

Check out this wonderful CD of Lang Lang playing the Prokofiev 3 and Bartók 2 with the Berlin Philharmonic under Simon Rattle.

This is world class playing! :tiphat:


----------



## Woodduck

StlukesguildOhio said:


> Natalie Portman on Cosmo mag cover with short skirt and nearly topless = no issues
> Yuja Wang with short skirt and some long top = tons of issues?
> 
> Not long ago... perhaps before you had joined TC... there was a huge debate concerning this CD cover:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Many were outraged at the manner in which the artist brought sexuality into the sacrosanct realm of classical music... or used sexuality as a means of marketing. There is an expectation held by a good number as to the proper manner of behavior and dress required of the serious classical musician.
> 
> Of course we always have Julie d'Aubigny, also known as Mademoiselle Maupin:
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Julie_d%27Aubigny


I think this is a somewhat different issue.

This particular album cover disturbed some of us, but not on account of some puritanical distaste for feminine beauty or an embarrassment over skin. The problem some had with it was that the subject looks like a child (regardless of her actual age), and that this has distasteful overtones and smacks of exploitation. Of course we later learned that the little girl was actually a woman in her twenties and that the decision to make her look like an adolescent was entirely calculated. Much better, right? Some also considered the image ridiculously inappropriate for the content of the CD, but of course that's just a sense of aesthetic fitness, which we all know has no relevance to anything, especially sales. The classical CD market is full of images of beautiful bodies and come-hither looks which do not create the uneasiness this cover did.

As for Yuja Wang, she is not a slickly contrived marketing ploy but a superb and famous pianist who merely likes to wear short skirts. A bit surprising, perhaps, if one is not used to it, but easy enough to get used to for most; the papers will comment at her first appearance, and by her second they won't care. She seems quite well-established, doesn't she?


----------



## Albert7

Yes and the flap over Yuja Wang's skirts will subsidize when she turns 40... she mentioned that in interviews that by then she will have longer skirts.


----------



## Marschallin Blair

Woodduck said:


> I think this is a somewhat different issue.
> 
> This particular album cover disturbed some of us, but not on account of some puritanical distaste for feminine beauty or an embarrassment over skin. The problem some had with it was that the subject looks like a child (regardless of her actual age), and that this has distasteful overtones and smacks of exploitation. Of course we later learned that the little girl was actually a woman in her twenties and that the decision to make her look like an adolescent was entirely calculated. Much better, right? Some also considered the image ridiculously inappropriate for the content of the CD, but of course that's just a sense of aesthetic fitness, which we all know has no relevance to anything, especially sales. The classical CD market is full of images of beautiful bodies and come-hither looks which do not create the uneasiness this cover did.
> 
> As for Yuja Wang, she is not a slickly contrived marketing ploy but a superb and famous pianist who merely likes to wear short skirts. A bit surprising, perhaps, if one is not used to it, but easy enough to get used to for most; the papers will comment at her first appearance, and by her second they won't care. She seems quite well-established, doesn't she?


I disagree with that premise.

Lara looks like a young woman to me, true enough.

Equally true, she does not look like Jon Benét Ramsey- which is something qualitatively different.


----------



## Itullian

Looks like an under age girl to me.
And suggestively staged.


----------



## Marschallin Blair

Itullian said:


> Looks like an under age girl to me.
> And suggestively staged.


Well thank God it isn't seventeenth century Salem.


----------



## Woodduck

Marschallin Blair said:


> I disagree with that premise.
> 
> Lara looks like a young woman to me, true enough.
> 
> Equally true, she does not look like Jon Benét Ramsey- which is something qualitatively different.


My sole point here is that people who find the image suggestive of child pornography should not be labeled as puritanical. How a given individual perceives it doesn't invalidate that point. The only premise implied is that the use of children in sexually suggestive images is wrong. I find this question - and this image - basically irrelevant to Yuja Wang's skirts.


----------



## Itullian

Marschallin Blair said:


> Well thank God it isn't seventeenth century Salem.




So my perception makes me a witch burner?
Absolutely insulting and non sequitur


----------



## Becca

The feminist in me rails against the promotion of some artists because of their youth and beauty. I would not deny that many of them are indeed very talented but how many equally or more talented musicians are marginalized because they don't meet the supposed beauty standards? Of course it does indeed sell, particularly in some quarters, and all you have to do is look at many of the threads in the Musicians section to confirm that. We seem to be in an age where technical ability often trumps musicianship where young woman are concerned - and I will name no names!

Added ... And the feminist in me also asks why a woman's choice of clothing need be relevant to anything.


----------



## KenOC

Let's remember that there are some very sexy non-oriental male musicians. I will post only the URL of the picture here, for fear of inflaming passions perhaps better left to slumber.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-rgPFLAZdP.../s1600/fotos_bizarras_fotos_loucas_demais.png


----------



## Albert7

Becca said:


> The feminist in me rails against the promotion of some artists because of their youth and beauty. I would not deny that many of them are indeed very talented but how many equally or more talented musicians are marginalized because they don't meet the supposed beauty standards? Of course it does indeed sell, particularly in some quarters, and all you have to do is look at many of the threads in the Musicians section to confirm that. We seem to be in an age where technical ability often trumps musicianship where young woman are concerned - and I will name no names!
> 
> Added ... And the feminist in me also asks why a woman's choice of clothing need be relevant to anything.


Because the predominantly male critics of Gramophone magazine seem to emphasize Yuja's clothing in every single review they have of her albums on DG.


----------



## Marschallin Blair

Woodduck said:


> My sole point here is that people who find the image suggestive of child pornography should not be labeled as puritanical. How a given individual perceives it doesn't invalidate that point. The only premise implied is that the use of children in sexually suggestive images is wrong. I find this question - and this image - basically irrelevant to Yuja Wang's skirts.


Well then, we're in deeply-moved agreement.

I'm sure Lara is too.


----------



## Marschallin Blair

Becca said:


> The feminist in me rails against the promotion of some artists because of their youth and beauty. I would not deny that many of them are indeed very talented but how many equally or more talented musicians are marginalized because they don't meet the supposed beauty standards? Of course it does indeed sell, particularly in some quarters, and all you have to do is look at many of the threads in the Musicians section to confirm that. We seem to be in an age where technical ability often trumps musicianship where young woman are concerned - and I will name no names!
> 
> Added ... And the feminist in me also asks why a woman's choice of clothing need be relevant to anything.


Concluding _obiter dicta_ that I can believe in._ ;D_


----------



## Woodduck

Albert7 said:


> Because the predominantly male critics of Gramophone magazine seem to emphasize Yuja's clothing in every single review they have of her albums on DG.


Men (present company excepted) are pigs.


----------



## Marschallin Blair

Itullian said:


> So my perception makes me a witch burner?
> Absolutely insulting and non sequitur


Thou dost protest too much, me thinks.

The characterization is all your own.


----------



## Becca

Albert7 said:


> Because the predominantly male critics of Gramophone magazine seem to emphasize Yuja's clothing in every single review they have of her albums on DG.


That does not constitute a relevancy.


----------



## Marschallin Blair

Woodduck said:


> Men (present company excepted) are pigs.


And women, present company excepted, are from Olympus- as I'm actually from Venus.


----------



## Itullian

Marschallin Blair said:


> Thou dost protest too much, me thinks.
> 
> The characterization is all your own.


And you insult too much.
You threw out Salem in order to insult.
We're not stupid, to your surprise probably.


----------



## StlukesguildOhio

This particular album cover disturbed some of us, but not on account of some puritanical distaste for feminine beauty or an embarrassment over skin. The problem some had with it was that the subject looks like a child (regardless of her actual age)...

How is this different from having problem with the appearance of a woman who looks too thin, or too Rubenesque, or too anything. Obviously Lara St. John (who was 26 at the time of this photo session) looked this way at that time. Should she have hidden under a rock or dressed more demurely simply because the way she appeared gave some viewers inappropriate thoughts?

... and that this has distasteful overtones and smacks of exploitation.

Somehow I don't get the exploitation angle. Ms. St. John admits that the concept of the photo shoot was her own. She wished to convey the idea of Bach stripped naked, as it were... of us hearing nothing but a musician and her violin. At the same time, she wanted to push the boundaries of propriety... and challenge the notion of the staid classical musician.

Of course we later learned that the little girl was actually a woman in her twenties and that the decision to make her look like an adolescent was entirely calculated.

Lara St. John looked the way she looked. I don't see any attempts to make her look younger.










Should she have somehow dressed differently or hid under a rock because some individuals feel she looked too much like an adolescent? My oldest daughter is nearly 35 but could almost pass for 16. Does that make her husband some sort of deviant because he obviously finds her sexually attractive?

Some also considered the image ridiculously inappropriate for the content of the CD, but of course that's just a sense of aesthetic fitness, which we all know has no relevance to anything, especially sales. The classical CD market is full of images of beautiful bodies and come-hither looks which do not create the uneasiness this cover did.

Personally, I don't find the cover all that interesting. But I don't find it shocking or disturbing either.

Now THIS is an unsettling record cover:


----------



## Marschallin Blair

Itullian said:


> And you insult too much.
> You threw out Salem.
> We're not stupid, to your surprise probably.


Telling women how to dress and the religious repression of women isn't exactly a statistically stochastic correlation, you know.



















Perhaps religious bigots should be stood up to more often, don't you think?

I find Hester would agree.


----------



## StlukesguildOhio

And what is to be done with all those deviant artists intentionally pushing the boundaries of what is acceptable... and pushing the buttons of certain members of the audience?



Bronzino- Allegory (Painted a couple hundred years prior to Salem in a very Catholic Italy)


----------



## Marschallin Blair

StlukesguildOhio said:


> And what is to be done with all those deviant artists intentionally pushing the boundaries of what is acceptable... and pushing the buttons of certain members of the audience?
> 
> 
> 
> Bronzino- Allegory (Painted a couple hundred years prior to Salem in a very Catholic Italy)


"Contemporary community standards"- as defined by themselves- will determine who is to be black bagged and burka'ed.


----------



## Woodduck

StlukesguildOhio said:


> This particular album cover disturbed some of us, but not on account of some puritanical distaste for feminine beauty or an embarrassment over skin. The problem some had with it was that the subject looks like a child (regardless of her actual age)...
> 
> How is this different from having problem with the appearance of a woman who looks too thin, or too Rubenesque, or too anything. Obviously Lara St. John (who was 26 at the time of this photo session) looked this way at that time. Should she have hidden under a rock or dressed more demurely simply because the way she appeared gave some viewers inappropriate thoughts?
> 
> ... and that this has distasteful overtones and smacks of exploitation.
> 
> Somehow I don't get the exploitation angle. Ms. St. John admits that the concept of the photo shoot was her own. She wished to convey the idea of Bach stripped naked, as it were... of us hearing nothing but a musician and her violin. At the same time, she wanted to push the boundaries of propriety... and challenge the notion of the staid classical musician.
> 
> Of course we later learned that the little girl was actually a woman in her twenties and that the decision to make her look like an adolescent was entirely calculated.
> 
> Lara St. John looked the way she looked. I don't see any attempts to make her look younger.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Should she have somehow dressed differently or hid under a rock because some individuals feel she looked too much like an adolescent? My oldest daughter is nearly 35 but could almost pass for 16. Does that make her husband some sort of deviant because he obviously finds her sexually attractive?
> 
> Some also considered the image ridiculously inappropriate for the content of the CD, but of course that's just a sense of aesthetic fitness, which we all know has no relevance to anything, especially sales. The classical CD market is full of images of beautiful bodies and come-hither looks which do not create the uneasiness this cover did.
> 
> Personally, I don't find the cover all that interesting. But I don't find it shocking or disturbing either.
> 
> Now THIS is an unsettling record cover:


Ah yes, that one. Unsettling? It's kitschy. Not terribly inappropriate to the opera. What has this to do with pictures of nude apparently underage girls being used to sell Bach's d-minor Chaconne?

Bad taste comes in very different flavors.


----------



## Albert7

Woodduck said:


> Ah yes, that one. Unsettling? It's kitschy. Not terribly inappropriate to the opera. What has this to do with pictures of nude apparently underage girls being used to sell Bach's d-minor Chaconne?
> 
> Bad taste comes in very different flavors.


I consider myself a man of the very kitschy tastes... You can check out my collection of porcelain cookie jars if you wish.


----------



## Woodduck

StlukesguildOhio said:


> And what is to be done with all those deviant artists intentionally pushing the boundaries of what is acceptable... and pushing the buttons of certain members of the audience?
> 
> 
> 
> Bronzino- Allegory (Painted a couple hundred years prior to Salem in a very Catholic Italy)


This pushes my amusement button. What an awkward assembly of figures!


----------



## Marschallin Blair

Woodduck said:


> Ah yes, that one. Unsettling? It's kitschy. Not terribly inappropriate to the opera. What has this to do with pictures of nude apparently underage girls being used to sell Bach's d-minor Chaconne?
> 
> Bad taste comes in very different flavors.


Now Lord Duck, do we really want to go down that route?

I _adore _you- so I'll refrain from my usual impetuous conduct.


----------



## Albert7

Marschallin Blair said:


> Now Lord Duck, do we really want to go down that route?
> 
> I _adore _you- so I'll refrain from my usual impetuous conduct.


"Nope. After we fully realize the potential of your technology, we execute your [human] race to extinction and burn your cities to annihilation and we restart all species on Earth.

For Bear!"

--Lord Lance



Lord Lance said:


> Dogs have written symphonies on a scale larger than Mahler, employing more complexity than you scared Humans ever could.


Apparently that the digression has entered into a new realm away from Lang Lang and Yuja Wang, the bear has returned to set the course straight here.


----------



## science

Nereffid said:


> Of course there are racists (and misogynists, and every other kind of *sshole) posting comments on YouTube, but I can't imagine they're representative of classical music listeners as a whole, are they? Or is the world even worse than I thought it was?


The world is much, much worse than any of us think it is - worse than any of us _can_ think it is. The human mind is incapable of conceiving the horror of life, and when we see too much of it we never recover.

I think youtube actually represents us well.

However, I don't think the reactions against Lang Lang or Yuja Wang are primarily racial or nationalistic. Maybe a little bit, but not much.


----------



## science

science said:


> The world is much, much worse than any of us think it is - worse than any of us _can_ think it is. The human mind is incapable of conceiving the horror of life, and when we see too much of it we never recover.
> 
> I think youtube actually represents us well.
> 
> However, I don't think the reactions against Lang Lang or Yuja Wang are primarily racial or nationalistic. Maybe a little bit, but not much.


Hey, I can't edit the post! What's up with that? Anyway, I want to change "Maybe a little bit, but not much," to "Of course a little bit is, but not much." That is closer to my actual belief.


----------



## Albert7

More YouTube comments about Lang Lang both positive and negative:

Y Liu7 months ago

To those people who dislike Lang Lang's facial expression: it is the stage that not only shows his skill, his performance and his interpretation toward the music but also his personalities, other wise there would be boring and like the rainbow without color. You might live in Western, you would always pretend to prompt or protect the democracy in the world, but why you could not allow or tolerate this young man to have his way, his personalities and his freedom of express on the stage? Thanks for your hypocrisy, your bias and your jealousy ...﻿


----------



## Marschallin Blair

Albert7 said:


> "Nope. After we fully realize the potential of your technology, we execute your race to extinction and burn your cities to annihilation and we restart all species on Earth.
> 
> For Bear!"
> 
> --Lord Lance
> 
> Apparently that the digression has entered into a new realm away from Lang Lang and Yuja Wang, the bear has returned to set the course straight here.


You want to 'execute my race to extinction'?

Is this a personal attack?

If not, then what is?


----------



## Albert7

Marschallin Blair said:


> You want to 'execute my race to extinction'?
> 
> Is this a personal attack?
> 
> If not, then what is?


Nope, not a personal volley at all... the problem here is that with the bears taking over humanity, we have more pressing issues to be concerned with. The topic is that Lang Lang and Yuja Wang are the primary focus of this conversation.


----------



## PlaySalieri

There is no doubt that Asian soloists have scaled the heights - but Lang Lang's popularity is based on non musical factors. It is sad but many top names around today - including Vengerov, for example - are nowhere near the best - but have made spectacular careers for themselves. In Vengerov's case he had a savvy teacher and promoter - who made sure he organised or sat on the jury of the competitions he won. In Lang Lang's case - I understand that the chinese made him famous and his karate chop routine went down rather well in the west. Look at Liberace - he made millions playing flashy lollipops - a wink and s charming smile while he plays worked wonders with people who would not normally tolerate a recital.


----------



## Albert7

After spending some time with Lang Lang playing Liszt, I realize how much I enjoyed it quite a bit. Not for Bartok but for Liszt yes.


----------



## marttyb

*Racism*



Albert7 said:


> Yep, I know that it's time to dig up another potentially explosive topic... I know that a lot of people hate Lang Lang and Yuja Wang due to "showmanship" and "copycat-ness." With the spate of Asian musicians, I am curious whether the "conservative" nature of classical music culture sees this buckling the trend of the European musician-ship with new faces?
> 
> Is the aversion to their approach due to potential racism? Interestingly enough, half-Asians such as Alice Sara Ott or Arabella Steinbacher don't incur the same criticism as the musicians from mainland China.
> 
> Opinions?


I have been curious about the resistance I have towards Yuja Wang and it's taken me a while to understand it. I acknowledge her virtuoso prowess. But if it came to a choice to see her or Lang Lang, I'd go to the latter. His tone and depth are better than hers. 
I think there's a perception with some Asian that their virtuoso is off the charts but there's a mechanical tinny quality to many of their interpretations. Otherwise people are jealous of their prowess.


----------



## pianozach

marttyb said:


> I have been curious about the resistance I have towards Yuja Wang and it's taken me a while to understand it. I acknowledge her virtuoso prowess. But if it came to a choice to see her or Lang Lang, I'd go to the latter. His tone and depth are better than hers.
> I think there's a perception with some Asian that their virtuoso is off the charts but there's a mechanical tinny quality to many of their interpretations. Otherwise people are jealous of their prowess.


I'm not as familiar with Lang Lang, but what I've heard from Yuja Wang is incredible. Mechanical? I've never gotten that vibe from her. She DOES play a lot of very demanding works that require technical prowess and skill, but when it's needed she pours the romanticism just as well as any other pianist of her calibre.


----------



## Esterhazy

It’s jealousy and because they sell big time.


----------



## Rogerx

Esterhazy said:


> It's jealousy and because they sell big time.


Do you really think that?


----------



## Phil loves classical

I think there is something lost in the modern pianist with the Romantic repertoire. Check out this video. Some things can't be gleaned just from looking at the score. I believe there's a sort of heritage. From what I've heard, I don't think Lang Lang or Yuja Wang really studied up on those roots, and their interpretations don't have that sense of cohesion.


----------



## pianozach

Phil loves classical said:


> I think there is something lost in the modern pianist with the Romantic repertoire. Check out this video. Some things can't be gleaned just from looking at the score. I believe there's a sort of heritage. From what I've heard, I don't think Lang Lang or Yuja Wang really studied up on those roots, and their interpretations don't have that sense of cohesion.


Yes, *Arrau* certainly DID know his stuff. I think you'd find that *Lang* and *Wang* are _*also*_ well studied up on the music AND the context in which it was written.

Compare with Russian-American pianist *Lola Astanova*. Now THAT's someone who has invested heavily mainly on her technique and, of course, her legs. Power to her. I find her technical prowess astonishing, but she's a bit lacking in terms of actual depth. But it doesn't even matter. Sometimes I'm in the mood for technical skill, and other times I'm looking for emotion and passion.


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## Phil loves classical

^ I'm wondering if there is more that got passed down from the Masters that's more exclusive, outside of the Conservatory, or somehow got corrupted along the way since the golden age of the piano. I feel a certain mix got lost in the Romantic repertoire.


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## pianozach

Phil loves classical said:


> ^ I'm wondering if there is more that got passed down from the Masters that's more exclusive, outside of the Conservatory, or somehow got corrupted along the way since the golden age of the piano. I feel a certain mix got lost in the Romantic repertoire.


It's possible. I'd wager someone said the same a hundred years ago about the Classical repertoire during the Romantic age.


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## Bulldog

pianozach said:


> Compare with Russian-American pianist *Lola Astanova*. Now THAT's someone who has invested heavily mainly on her technique and, of course, her legs. Power to her. I find her technical prowess astonishing, but she's a bit lacking in terms of actual depth. But it doesn't even matter. Sometimes I'm in the mood for technical skill, and other times I'm looking for emotion and passion.


Never having heard of Lola, I went to a few websites where her body and music-making are available. She is quite a physical presence; there was even a photo of her in enticing underwear. As for the music-making, I was surprised at the musical content. Overall, I don't consider her a serious artist; she's an entertainer.


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## Parley

pianozach said:


> Yes, *Arrau* certainly DID know his stuff. I think you'd find that *Lang* and *Wang* are _*also*_ well studied up on the music AND the context in which it was written.
> 
> Compare with Russian-American pianist *Lola Astanova*. Now THAT's someone who has invested heavily mainly on her technique and, of course, her legs. Power to her. I find her technical prowess astonishing, but she's a bit lacking in terms of actual depth. But it doesn't even matter. Sometimes I'm in the mood for technical skill, and other times I'm looking for emotion and passion.


Both Lang Lang and Yuja studied with Gary Graffmann so they are well taught. Yuja was an established artist before she had her teen rebellion / miniskirts phase. I don't know about Lola who seems to market herself by her body.


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## pianozach

pianozach said:


> Yes, *Arrau* certainly DID know his stuff. I think you'd find that *Lang* and *Wang* are _*also*_ well studied up on the music AND the context in which it was written.
> 
> Compare with Russian-American pianist *Lola Astanova*. Now THAT's someone who has invested heavily mainly on her technique and, of course, her legs. Power to her. I find her technical prowess astonishing, but she's a bit lacking in terms of actual depth. But it doesn't even matter. Sometimes I'm in the mood for technical skill, and other times I'm looking for emotion and passion.





Bulldog said:


> Never having heard of Lola, I went to a few websites where her body and music-making are available. She is quite a physical presence; there was even a photo of her in enticing underwear. As for the music-making, I was surprised at the musical content. Overall, I don't consider her a serious artist; she's an entertainer.





Parley said:


> Both Lang Lang and Yuja studied with Gary Graffmann so they are well taught. Yuja was an established artist before she had her teen rebellion / miniskirts phase. I don't know about Lola who seems to market herself by her body.


In spite of how she "markets" herself, *Lola Astanova* actually has credentials.

She started touring as a concert pianist at the age of eight. A laureate at the 1996 International Chopin Competition for Young Pianists in Moscow.

From Wikipedia:

In 1998, she was featured in the UNESCO documentary "Prodigies of the 20th Century". In 2003, she emigrated to the United States; her debut there was at the John F. Kennedy Center for the Performing Arts in Washington, DC, the following year.

Astanova became a star of the October 2007 Classical Superstars Fantasy Concert alongside Valery Gergiev and Kirov Orchestra of the Mariinsky Theater, hosted by ABC's television host Regis Philbin. The concert was featured in the 100th anniversary issue of the Neiman Marcus Christmas Book and offered for $1.6 million. In August 2008, The National September 11 Memorial & Museum announced Ms. Astanova's performance on the famed Steinway concert grand piano of Vladimir Horowitz at the "Notes of Hope" benefit hosted by Mayor Michael Bloomberg.

On 19 January 2012 Astanova made her Carnegie Hall debut, with the New York Times noting that _*"her taste for drama and her extreme physical abandon end up emphasizing that there isn't a great deal of emotion in her playing"*_​
That last sentence echoes what I commented earlier.

As for the high heels, bare legs, and tight dresses, well, in June 2012, she was named among *Top 10 Style Icons in Classical Music* by *Limelight* magazine.

As for her actual PLAYING: Here's two videos. The first is her official video for the *Fantasie-Impromptu*, which, while technically perfect, does point out that "lack of emotion" to which the NYT alluded.

Her precision is truly remarkable.

No, there are no job openings to be her piano bench.

Watch this video closely. There is a beautiful grand piano in it.






.

She played Gershwin's "*Rhapsody in Blue*" with Gerard Schwarz (Clarinet) and the All-Star Orchestra, featured in the All-Star Orchestra "Visions of New York" television special which received the *2016 Emmy Award* for Special Event Coverage (Other than News or Sports).






.

She IS the real deal. One doesn't play like this without years and years of dedication, practice, and more practice.

And as for her legs . . . they DO seem unreasonably long . . . so long (when fitted with heels) that she has to sit further back than looks comfortable . . . her legs just don't seem to fit underneath.

ONE THING that seems somewhat amusing is that just 10 years ago, before she discovered "fashion", she seemed to be quite the serious pianist, with legit chops to go with it. The "emotion" missing from her more recent flashier performances is evident HERE.

Look at _*THIS*_. One doesn't simply sit down and play some *Rachmaninoff*.






.

Strangely enough, she has deleted _*most*_ of her early videos/performances from her official Youtube channel. Perhaps she wants to distance herself from how she looked back then, or maybe she'd simply prefer that you watch and listen to her newer stuff.


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## GrosseFugue

There _is_ a degree of racism in the way Asian artists are received. Often, they're blamed for being robotic and soulless, or castigated for their showmanship and high heels. You can't win. I knew a musician in the early 2000's who refused to listen to Asian performers. He used the now-cliched argument that they were all "mechanical." I really wonder how much of that was his projection. He claimed, for instance, that a CD by Midori (or maybe Uchida, I forget) bored him and had "no heart" but putting on the same work by another artist (who happened to be Caucasian) made him feel "invigorated." I wanted to do a blind test with him, but he refused. I think he was an imbecile. Unfortunately, I think any such disdain has only been reinforced by the Coronavirus.

One thing to keep in mind is that Asian Classical artists never came with a political agenda. There was never a company need to spotlight them or "move them up" to appear "diverse" or on the side of a certain hot-button Movement. So if they hit the limelight it's always because they're pretty damn capable, at the very least. And I don't think it's possible to play at that high a level without some amount of "soul." Nowadays, however, I see certain young instrumentalists of color being fast-tracked in order to "redress" certain "historical wrongs," and that seems screwy (but that is a topic for another thread).


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