# Opera's gender problem?



## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

The headline says, "Opera’s Gender Problem." The copy following says, "According to Operabase, an online opera database, in the years 2009 to 2014 there are only 3 women amongst the 60 most performed living opera composers in the world. Saariaho comes in highest at number 33. In all opera composers performed in that period, living or dead, women fare far worse with not a single female composer in the top 30. And in the most performed 50 operas worldwide in that same period, there is not a single work by a woman."

And who exactly is that a "problem" for? It seems to me that if women think men are unfairly represented in operas, they should write more operas that people like. All else is the usual lip-flapping. Or are my Trump genes merely expressing themselves?


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

Yes they are.

The issue isn't them writing the operas, it is being given the opportunity to do so AND having them produced.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Is there a reason to believe that women face greater bars than men? Curious.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

KenOC said:


> It seems to me that if women think men are unfairly represented in operas, they should write more operas that people like. All else is the usual lip-flapping. Or are my Trump genes merely expressing themselves?


Please don't say you have Trump genes. I've kinda liked you up to now.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

KenOC said:


> Is there a reason to believe that women face greater bars than men? Curious.


If it's been an ongoing struggle for women even to get seats in major orchestras, and female conductors are scarce as roosters' teeth...


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Woodduck said:


> If it's been an ongoing struggle for women even to get seats in major orchestras, and female conductors are scarce as roosters' teeth...


My Trump genes say that's not an answer to the question.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

KenOC said:


> My Trump genes say that's not an answer to the question.


OK, Donald, I'm fired.

I merely suggest that women are still subject to "role stereotyping" in the music world, and the concept of a woman prominent in the opera world for something besides singing, coaching, or costume designing may still strike some as difficult to get their minds around - including women themselves. I suspect that as time goes on more girls will grow up imagining themselves putting an opera on the stage of the Met, and perhaps conducting it themselves. If people are still writing operas by then, of course.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Are there women who have been barred from live opera due to sexism, who have been denied the stage due to their gender? Or is your view based solely on supposition? Or are females discouraged from opera starting at a tender age? Evidence?


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Obviously in the past women have been discriminated against as composers like in a lot of other professions. Who knows what music was lostt? However, today there appears no reason why women composers shouldn't make a name for themselves in opera. The one problem appears to be that, in common with some other modern composers, few people want to hear what they write!


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

KenOC said:


> Are there women who have been barred from live opera due to sexism, who have been denied the stage due to their gender? Or is your view based solely on supposition? Or are females discouraged from opera starting at a tender age? Evidence?


Be serious, do you really think that, whatever their real reason, most people will make it obvious? Do you think that Peter Gelb or Kasper Holten or any other opera director would go on record? Of course not, no matter what the manner of discrimination. It isn't very often that you get someone foolish enough to do that...

Vasily Petrenko, music director of the Oslo Philharmonic and Royal Liverpool Philharmonic saying that orchestras "react better when they have a man in front of them" and that "a cute girl on a podium means that musicians think about other things".

Or Jorma Pannula, the famous conducting professor at the Sibelius academy when asked if he felt that women should be conductors said "I do not!" "They can come [to my masterclasses] and try," said Panula. "It's not a problem - if they choose the right pieces, if they take more feminine music. Bruckner or Stravinsky will not do, but Debussy is okay. This is purely an issue of biology."

Ask Sarah Willis who was the first woman in the brass section of the Berlin Philharmonic who, when selecting a second instrument to play and asked for the horn was told "horns are for boys".

Ask Barbara Hannigan who has spent most of her professional life in a job with no male competition, i.e. as a soprano, but who, when making the move into conducting, ran head long into the issue of discrimination.

Ask Sarah Caldwell what it was like to start and run the Opera Company of Boston, and how difficult it was to be taken seriously.

Ask Jennifer Higdon who has been able to get her opera, _Cold Mountain_ performed in Santa Fe after, but not after much travail and having her commission by the San Francisco opera canceled.

The list goes on.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Ah, some evidence perhaps! Many thanks!


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

KenOC said:


> Are there women who have been barred from live opera due to sexism, who have been denied the stage due to their gender? Or is your view based solely on supposition? Or are females discouraged from opera starting at a tender age? Evidence?


This isn't a science class, Donald.

I didn't state a definitive view. My statements used words such as "suggest," "may," and "suspect."

Come to think of it, science begins with such words too.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Woodduck said:


> This isn't a science class, Donald.


You state a belief, which you seem to hold quite strongly backed by some emotion. Surely it's not out of bounds to ask for some evidence? Or...is it?


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

KenOC said:


> You state a belief, which you seem to hold quite strongly backed by some emotion. Surely it's not out of bounds to ask for some evidence? Or...is it?


Well, I began with two bits of evidence that women face stereotyping in the classical music world. Surely it's not out of bounds to ask you not to ignore them?

Becca has added much more evidence to them, which you did not ignore. Was that out of some anachronistic chivalric impulse toward the "weaker sex" ?


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## dgee (Sep 26, 2013)

KenOC said:


> And who exactly is that a "problem" for? It seems to me that if women think men are unfairly represented in operas, they should write more operas that people like.


Ken, you're still making the error that what is programmed is what "people" "like". Especially with opera, what is programmed is what boards think a mix of existing subscribes and return customers will but tickets for and then not be offended by.

Your prescription is clearly for women to go back in time and become "name" composers with repertoire in the classical and romantic style. It's a good opinion

Anyhow, maybe you could set out some ideas about how the little ladies could get their new operas programmed in 2016. Or maybe how a Trump supporter could write a new opera that gets on the rep list

I eagerly await your etc etc


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## Guest (Feb 28, 2016)

Woodduck said:


> Please don't say you have Trump genes. I've kinda liked you up to now.


That 'kinda' is all-important. 



Becca said:


> Vasily Petrenko, music director of the Oslo Philharmonic and Royal Liverpool Philharmonic saying that orchestras "react better when they have a man in front of them" and that "a cute girl on a podium means that musicians think about other things".


Let's see if I can raise a question here without anyone making assumptions about my position on gender discrimination.

Might he be right - if not wholly so, in any part? I mean, to automatically assume he must be wrong, and how dare he say such a thing doesn't help set people right on such things. Better to show what is wrong about his belief than merely dismiss it.


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## dgee (Sep 26, 2013)

MacLeod said:


> That 'kinda' is all-important.
> 
> Let's see if I can raise a question here without anyone making assumptions about my position on gender discrimination.
> 
> Might he be right - if not wholly so, in any part? I mean, to automatically assume he must be wrong, and how dare he say such a thing doesn't help set people right on such things. Better to show what is wrong about his belief than merely dismiss it.


I've been conducted by Susanna Malki, Simone Young and Joana Carneiro. All some time ago - maybe they were less famous then and that mitigated the lady issue somewhat? Or perhaps the contrary? No biggie for anyone involved and good music was made 

Of course, this is just anecdotal. Happy to hear any hard evidence, survey, double blind audience testing, brain scans, longitudinal study where people who went to the shows gave up on Mahler, Bruckner and Mussourgsky as a result...


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

MacLeod said:


> That 'kinda' is all-important.
> 
> Let's see if I can raise a question here without anyone making assumptions about my position on gender discrimination.
> 
> Might he be right - if not wholly so, in any part? I mean, to automatically assume he must be wrong, and how dare he say such a thing doesn't help set people right on such things. Better to show what is wrong about his belief than merely dismiss it.


If he is correct that the musicians (or a significant proportion of the musicians in an orchestra) would get distracted by a female conductor then it doesn't mean that there is a valid reason for women not to be conductors, just that the solution to the issue may be different than we thought. If he is right then the orchestral players as well as those hiring conductors and conducting assistants need to be approached to find out why they have sexist views and encouraged to change those views.

N.


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## Guest (Feb 28, 2016)

dgee said:


> Of course, this is just anecdotal. Happy to hear any hard evidence, survey, double blind audience testing, brain scans, longitudinal study where people who went to the shows gave up on Mahler, Bruckner and Mussourgsky as a result...


Me too. I'm quite sure that common sense would suggest that _some _members of an orchestra may well be distracted by the looks of the conductor (as well as by many other things) - and that that goes for both sexes.



The Conte said:


> If he is correct that the musicians (or a significant proportion of the musicians in an orchestra) would get distracted by a female conductor then it doesn't mean that there is a valid reason for women not to be conductors,


Quite. And presumably he needs to be told this, not simply told he is being sexist?



The Conte said:


> just that the solution to the issue may be different than we thought. If he is right then the orchestral players as well as those hiring conductors and conducting assistants need to be approached to find out why they have sexist views and encouraged to change those views.


I don't see how being distracted by the looks of the conductor is a 'sexist view', but perhaps I'm misunderstanding your point?


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

MacLeod said:


> Me too. I'm quite sure that common sense would suggest that _some _members of an orchestra may well be distracted by the looks of the conductor (as well as by many other things) - and that that goes for both sexes.
> 
> Quite. And presumably he needs to be told this, not simply told he is being sexist?
> 
> I don't see how being distracted by the looks of the conductor is a 'sexist view', but perhaps I'm misunderstanding your point?


I see, yes I was understanding Petrenko's point as being that the distraction would cause the players not to want to play with a female conductor. He doesn't explain how he can conduct orchestras that have female musicians in, don't they get distracted?

N.


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## Zhdanov (Feb 16, 2016)

in that respect, there ain't no women and men, there are only humans.


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## Zhdanov (Feb 16, 2016)

Becca said:


> The issue isn't them writing the operas, it is being given the opportunity to do so AND having them produced.


positive discrimination much?


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## Zhdanov (Feb 16, 2016)

Becca said:


> Ask Sarah Willis


ask Soviet peoples that without any feminist politics there women - the first in history of mankind to be given voting rights, flown to space and made composers like Sophia Gubaidullina.


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

This thread will be incomplete without the names of two great talented conductors, Marin Alsop and Eve Queler.


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

...duplicate post...


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

MacLeod said:


> Let's see if I can raise a question here without anyone making assumptions about my position on gender discrimination.
> 
> Might he be right - if not wholly so, in any part? I mean, to automatically assume he must be wrong, and how dare he say such a thing doesn't help set people right on such things. Better to show what is wrong about his belief than merely dismiss it.


I know that comments along this line were made while I was asleep, but here goes anyway...

While I can't give you accurate statistics, based on having seen videos of many regional orchestras (by which I mean Liverpool, Birmingham, Detroit, Minnesota and the like), about half the musicians are women. Should we then assume that either they are all lesbians and distracted by having a women on the podium, or perhaps they are distracted by the men up there? The idea that idea of 'distraction' is a common one used to reinforce stereotypes in various occupations (see all about the US military this last year) and one that has be debunked every time.

P.S. Assuming the male distraction idea is relevant then we need to discuss the effect of soloists such as Anne-Sophie Mutter who always wear very form-fitting gowns while performing with the orchestra.


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

nina foresti said:


> This thread will be incomplete without the names of two great talented conductors, Marin Alsop and Eve Queler.


...and one up and coming conductor who does not dress down for the occasion...

View attachment 81964


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

The Conte said:


> I see, yes I was understanding Petrenko's point as being that the distraction would cause the players not to want to play with a female conductor.* He doesn't explain how he can conduct orchestras that have female musicians in, don't they get distracted?*
> 
> N.


*Precisely!*

Petrenko begins by assuming that orchestras (should?) consist mostly of men, and on that basis goes on about the perils of Pauline on the podium.

Having been conducted by people of both genders in my lifetime (as a choral singer), I can assure Mr. Petrenko that a good-looking conductor has never made me lose my place in the score or crack on a high note.

Are there really two sides to this "question"?


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

This is worth reading...

[http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2016/02/26/can-opera-cure-its-sexism-problem.html

There is one particular comment in this article that I found striking as I have seen the attitude expressed on other threads in this forum...

_[The published composer and educator, Missy] Mazzoli also feels there still can be a double standard for female composers, not dissimilar to the ones applied to female singers' looks.

"I have a friend, a composer, who told me, 'When a man writes something lyrical it's seen as brave and courageous, but when a woman does it it's seen as sentimental and indulgent.' This was in the late '90s and she was commenting on how sexist the new music community was. I'd like to say that times have changed, but I think this is still totally true."_


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Becca said:


> ...and one up and coming conductor who does not dress down for the occasion...
> 
> View attachment 81964


What a chin that guy to the left has!


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## Zhdanov (Feb 16, 2016)

Becca said:


> View attachment 81964


okay for a disco.


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

Becca said:


> ...and one up and coming conductor who does not dress down for the occasion...
> 
> View attachment 81964


If she was my conductor, I'd want to play my heart out for her.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

The OP asks if the paucity of female-composed operas being performed is a "problem"? The implication is that it's caused by institutionalized sexual discrimination somewhere along the line. But is it? People have been talking here about a few conductors who think women shouldn't be conducting*, but that has nothing to do with staging operas -- the repertoire is selected by people other than the conductor in most cases.

After all, why aren't 12.61% of operas staged in the US written by African-Americans? Institutionalized racism? Maybe so, maybe not. But it's not very useful to think you knw the answer by some sort of mental reflex. Makes my Trump genes quiver, it does!

*Of course these same conductors are happy to march Yuja Wang, in whatever stage of undress, up there front and center -- evidently with no worries about "distraction"!


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## isorhythm (Jan 2, 2015)

Is this actually specific to opera? Isn't it a problem in all areas of classical music?

I think the idea that composer = "Great Man" is very deeply entrenched. I don't doubt it prevents female composers from being taken as seriously as their male peers at times. But I'm not sure this is really susceptible to "proof." Art is too subjective for that. Someone is always going to come along and say the female composers just aren't any good, or whatever.

On the bright side, the Met is doing Saariaho this fall.


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

isorhythm said:


> Is this actually specific to opera? *Isn't it a problem in all areas of classical music?*
> 
> I think the idea that composer = "Great Man" is very deeply entrenched. I don't doubt it prevents female composers from being taken as seriously as their male peers at times. But I'm not sure this is really susceptible to "proof." Art is too subjective for that. Someone is always going to come along and say the female composers just aren't any good, or whatever.
> 
> On the bright side, the Met is doing Saariaho this fall.


I think so, why aren't there more female conductors, female composers and when was the last time you saw a female percussionist in the ensemble of an orchestra?

This isn't, of course cast iron proof that the classical music world is sexist, there could be other reasons. For example I wouldn't be surprised if there weren't fewer females in conducting and composing courses in college and the same probably goes for percussion and brass instruments. Research is needed (if it hasn't been done already) to find out why women don't consider composing and/or conducting classical music as being for them.

On the other hand we have to listen to female musicians and composers if they are telling us that there is discrimination and prejudice that is blocking their following these careers.

I suspect there are many reasons why there are so few women composers and conductors and once the causes are discovered we can work to address the balance.

N.


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

The problem is partly one of getting your foot in the door. In the world of opera you have to succeed to succeed. If someone with the composing and awards track record of Jennifer Higdon has problems, what must it be like for those whose name is not so well known. In the case of the men, oftentimes there is a good-old-boy network working, i.e. a professor says to a friend "this person reminds me of me when I was much younger" and that provides an entry, but if the same professor has a bias against women composers, and many women in music schools have experienced that, then they don't get that kick-start. Of course you are not going to find documentary evidence of that, but as with any other form of discrimination, that is how it is perpetuated.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

KenOC said:


> The OP asks if the paucity of female-composed operas being performed is a "problem"? The implication is that it's caused by institutionalized sexual discrimination somewhere along the line. But is it? People have been talking here about a few conductors who think women shouldn't be conducting*, but that has nothing to do with staging operas -- the repertoire is selected by people other than the conductor in most cases.
> 
> After all, why aren't 12.61% of operas staged in the US written by African-Americans? Institutionalized racism? Maybe so, maybe not. But it's not very useful to think you knw the answer by some sort of mental reflex. Makes my Trump genes quiver, it does!
> 
> *Of course these same conductors are happy to march Yuja Wang, in whatever stage of undress, up there front and center -- evidently with no worries about "distraction"!


Oh, come now! Surely you recognize the difference, to a conductor, between having Yuja Wang safely ensconced at the piano, where he can savor her pulchritude from his position of superiority and even share her with "the boys in the band", and having her take over his podium, where the poor jerks would find her "too distracting"! I can't believe you really missed Petrenko's rationalization here, or the sexist attitude from which it springs. Maybe boys will be boys, but we hope that boys, at some point sooner rather than later, will become men.

The existence of bias against women in classical music is not a "mental reflex." It's true that we can't entirely equate one area of music to another - say, conducting to composing, or singing opera to playing in an orchestra. Women have traditionally been more welcome in some musical fields than others, mainly the ones where they're indispensable and where men are not completely in charge: somebody has to sing Madama Butterfly, someone has to lead the choir in church, and men aren't generally in a position to tell women not to compose (though of course simply being married to a man used to see to that sort of thing, and in some cases, sadly, still does). Men can, however, make it known that they are not disposed to be interested in or impressed by music composed by women; and by limiting women's opportunities as, say, music professors or chairs of conservatory departments or composers in residence, and by not commissioning women to undertake time-consuming artistic endeavors, they can make the composition of substantial music by women less likely. If women's operas aren't getting performed, it seems not improbable that they aren't being written in the first place: if you know what an immense commitment of time and money is involved in composing an opera, and what cooperation is needed between composer and librettist and possible producers and sources of funding, it should take little imagination to surmise that the "problem" lies at least as much in those conditions which make artistic creation possible as in the whims of opera houses. Your statement, "It seems to me that if women think men are unfairly represented in operas, they should write more operas that people like. All else is the usual lip-flapping" shows absolutely no understanding of what it takes to bring opera - the most complex and expensive of art forms - into the world. Are your "Trump genes merely expressing themselves?" You bet your combover!

What's interesting, and what should attract your fact-and-statistic-loving mind, is that in the last generation or so women have been moving rapidly toward proportional equality with men in a wide range - I'm tempted to say most - occupations, professional and otherwise, including, conspicuously, the arts. Women have long dominated the literary arts - telling stories and writing poetry have always been considered activities compatible with "femininity" - and are now nearly as prominent as men in the creative visual arts as well. They have been peers of men in dance and in musical performance - except in conducting. That exception, I think, has nothing to do with music, but reflects the difficulty women have in assuming top positions of authority and leadership - leadership of _men _- in other professions. If you're unaware of that difficulty, you're not paying attention to women. Which may be part of the problem.

It isn't engaging in bra-burning to recognize that many people, especially people in certain populations and groups, have contributed less in certain fields than they otherwise would because of social structures maintained by the ingrained biases of those holding the most power to say who gets to do what. Innate (biologically determined) differences in ability or interests between such populations can't be discounted, but neither can they be measured until opportunity - and the belief that opportunity is real - has penetrated those populations. That more women than men will always be interested in devoting themselves to children and family life seems pretty obvious. But that only makes the surge of women's prominence in some occupations more interesting and impressive, and their relative absence from some others more in need of explanation.

Women have caught up with, and even surpassed, men in many fields. It seems obvious that in fields where they have not, we should first see what lessons their progress in other areas has to teach us, and what might be different in the present case.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Woodduck said:


> ...I can't believe you really missed Petrenko's rationalization here, or the sexist attitude from which it springs. Maybe boys will be boys, but we hope that boys, at some point sooner rather than later, will become men.
> 
> The existence of bias against women in classical music is not a "mental reflex."...


PiffleA and piffleB.

A) I not only recognize Petrenko's sexism, I was making fun of it. I thought that was obvious, but perhaps not.

B) Recognizing sexual bias in (classical) music in some areas is a far cry from assuming, in the absence of any evidence I've seen, that it has led to a lack of woman-composed operas in the performing repertoire. Has anybody brought up a single case of an opera rejected due to the sex of its composer, or even such a claim? In the absence of any such evidence, assuming sexism as the cause is, indeed, a mental reflex.

The immediate reaction is the usual righteous outrage, cries of "something must be done!", and calls to redress the imbalance. Perhaps a new government department?


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Zhdanov said:


> in that respect, there ain't no women and men, there are only humans.


Hallelujah to this, and if the go to the loo they both have to whip there ........


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## Guest (Feb 29, 2016)

Becca said:


> While I can't give you accurate statistics, based on having seen videos of many regional orchestras (by which I mean Liverpool, Birmingham, Detroit, Minnesota and the like), about half the musicians are women. Should we then assume that either they are all lesbians and distracted by having a women on the podium, or perhaps they are distracted by the men up there? The idea that idea of 'distraction' is a common one used to reinforce stereotypes in various occupations (see all about the US military this last year) and one that has be debunked every time.
> 
> P.S. Assuming the male distraction idea is relevant then we need to discuss the effect of soloists such as Anne-Sophie Mutter who always wear very form-fitting gowns while performing with the orchestra.


The distraction idea...as The Conte said, if distraction is an issue, the answer isn't, "Then we must have no women conductors."

I always wondered why HvK always closed his eyes when conducting.



Woodduck said:


> Are there really two sides to this "question"?


No, more than two, if you think of the possible 'distraction' combinations (which I thoughts was obvious too, so didn't bother pointing it out) and the possible consequences.

Of course, I wouldn't mind betting that even the first violin might be distracted by the excess arm waving of some conductors, or the sudden alarming recollection that they've left the cooker on, but it's a somewhat fatuous observation along the lines of Fielding's in E M Forster's _A Passage to India_ that the so-called white races are really pinko-grey.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

KenOC said:


> PiffleA and piffleB.
> 
> A) I not only recognize Petrenko's sexism, I was making fun of it. I thought that was obvious, but perhaps not.
> 
> ...


Well, "A" wasn't obvious to me, particularly since you seem not to want to admit that sexism in classical music goes beyond "a few conductors."

After all that's been said here, the fact that you can reduce a complex matter to the simplistic question "has anybody brought up a single case of an opera rejected due to the sex of its composer?", as if that were the only or even the primary factor involved in the paucity of operas by women onstage, indicates that you aren't really interested in considering the subject, or in anyone's attempts to consider it.

Yeah, women should just write more great operas and stage them. Gosh. And Mexico should build a wall and pay for it, and we can make America great again.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Woodduck said:


> Well, "A" wasn't obvious to me, particularly since you seem not to want to admit that sexism in classical music goes beyond "a few conductors."


Is it widespread? Endemic? Tell us about it! Evidence?

My Trumpy-sense is tingling!


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## SiegendesLicht (Mar 4, 2012)

KenOC said:


> And who exactly is that a "problem" for? It seems to me that if women think men are unfairly represented in operas, they should write more operas that people like. All else is the usual lip-flapping. Or are my Trump genes merely expressing themselves?


It's in the same category as complaining that there are not more female truck drivers or female programmers. There are things that the overwhelming majority of women are simply not interested in.


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## Zhdanov (Feb 16, 2016)

Becca said:


> In the case of the men, oftentimes there is a good-old-boy network working, i.e. a professor says to a friend "this person reminds me of me when I was much younger" and that provides an entry,


works both ways and many other ways, positive as well as negative etc, men or not.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

SiegendesLicht said:


> It's in the same category as complaining that there are not more female truck drivers or female programmers. There are things that the overwhelming majority of women are simply not interested in.


But isn't that social conditioning too and a gross generalisation to boot? Maybe women would find those jobs more interesting if they hadn't been told since birth that they were unsuitable jobs for women. I have a feeling the amount of female truck drivers and programmers is growing. Certainly there are quite a few female bus drivers and taxi drivers in London now. Ditto female firefighters.


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## Headphone Hermit (Jan 8, 2014)

MacLeod said:


> Me too. I'm quite sure that common sense would suggest that _some _members of an orchestra may well be distracted by the looks of the conductor (as well as by many other things) - and that that goes for both sexes.


Are orchestral players *that* easily distracted? Do handsome male conductors have to wear masks so that the female and gay-male players are not distracted from their professional business?

I haven't played in an orchestra so I can't comment about how weak an orchestral player's powers of concentration are, but I have sung for a female conductor (Jane Glover) and we quickly saw that here was a consummate professional who was very good at her job. Her gender was of no interest when we were practicing or performing - she was just very good indeed and by far and away the nest conductor that we (as an amateur choir) had ever encountered.


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## Headphone Hermit (Jan 8, 2014)

The Conte said:


> I think so, why aren't there more female conductors, female composers and when was the last time you saw a female percussionist in the ensemble of an orchestra?


Dame Evelyn Glennie?

But I accept the point that women are a small proportion of many orchestras


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## Headphone Hermit (Jan 8, 2014)

Headphone Hermit said:


> Are orchestral players *that* easily distracted? Do handsome male conductors have to wear masks so that the female and gay-male players are not distracted from their professional business?


on reflection - I have discovered the true reason for keeping a low percentage of women in orchestras - they just *cannot * play well when the conductor is as handsome as a Bernstein. QED!

Not!!!!


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Just as a by the by, Roxanna Panufnik's opera *Silver Birch* will premiere at Garsington in 2017.

Her previous opera, *Inkle and Yarico* (1996) was commissioned for and performed by the Holders Season, Barbados 1997.

And here is a list of the 10 best operas by women in The Guardian last year. I'm ashamed to say I haven't heard any of them, though I've heard _of_ quite a few of them.

http://www.theguardian.com/music/tomserviceblog/2015/mar/06/10-best-operas-by-women


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## SiegendesLicht (Mar 4, 2012)

GregMitchell said:


> But isn't that social conditioning too and a gross generalisation to boot? Maybe women would find those jobs more interesting if they hadn't been told since birth that they were unsuitable jobs for women. I have a feeling the amount of female truck drivers and programmers is growing. Certainly there are quite a few female bus drivers and taxi drivers in London now. Ditto female firefighters.


Someone who is really, really passionate about something and has a true talent for it, will not be kept from it by anything people say. And composing opera requires much more dedication than driving a truck or even programming. These all are mere jobs. Composing is a calling, at least if you are talking about composing worthwhile music.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

SiegendesLicht said:


> Someone who is really, really passionate about something and has a true talent for it, will not be kept from it by anything people say. And composing opera requires much more dedication than driving a truck or even programming. These all are mere jobs. Composing is a calling, at least if you are talking about composing worthwhile music.


Well you brought it up. And surely that would be the same, whether you were a man or a woman? Or are you saying women lack dedication?


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## SiegendesLicht (Mar 4, 2012)

GregMitchell said:


> Well you brought it up. And surely that would be the same, whether you were a man or a woman? Or are you saying women lack dedication?


No, but the majority choose to apply their dedication somewhere else. It's not like there are no female opera composers, truck drivers (I used to know one personally), etc. at all. It's just that very few ever become interested in those professions.

I've just asked the other girls who work at the same trucking company with me (as sales personnel, HR, accountants etc) whether any of them would actually contemplate getting behind the wheel and driving 23 tons of stuff say, from Munich to Moscow. The unanimous answer was "Hell, no!" How can you enforce a 50/50 equality if the women simply don't want to do it?  And opera is precisely the same way.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

SiegendesLicht said:


> No, but the majority choose to apply their dedication somewhere else. It's not like there are no female opera composers, truck drivers (I used to know one personally), etc. at all. It's just that very few ever become interested in those professions.
> 
> I've just asked the other girls who work at the same trucking company with me (as sales personnel, HR, accountants etc) whether any of them would actually contemplate getting behind the wheel and driving 23 tons of stuff say, from Munich to Moscow. The unanimous answer was "Hell, no!" How can you enforce a 50/50 equality if the women simply don't want to do it?  And opera is precisely the same way.


The same argument could be, and actually was, used against women getting the vote. If a few women hadn't campaigned so vigorously around 100 years ago, they wouldn't have it now.


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## SiegendesLicht (Mar 4, 2012)

So, what's your solution?


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## Dim7 (Apr 24, 2009)

GregMitchell said:


> The same argument could be, and actually was, used against women getting the vote. If a few women hadn't campaigned so vigorously around 100 years ago, they wouldn't have it now.


The analogy doesn't work at all because women are not actually prohibited from composing operas while they simply couldn't vote in the past.


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## sospiro (Apr 3, 2010)

Becca said:


> Be serious, do you really think that, whatever their real reason, most people will make it obvious? Do you think that Peter Gelb or Kasper Holten or any other opera director would go on record? Of course not, no matter what the manner of discrimination. It isn't very often that you get someone foolish enough to do that...
> 
> Vasily Petrenko, music director of the Oslo Philharmonic and Royal Liverpool Philharmonic saying that orchestras "react better when they have a man in front of them" and that "a cute girl on a podium means that musicians think about other things".
> 
> ...


:tiphat:

Wonderful post, Becca!


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Dim7 said:


> The analogy doesn't work at all because women are not actually prohibited from composing operas while they simply couldn't vote in the past.


I think the analogy works quite well. I was thinking about perception rather than legality. Most women over 100 years ago didn't question the fact that they were not allowed to vote. Nor did they question when men told them they were delicate creatures who were more prone to catching a common cold than men. The women in Jane Austen's novels are allowed a greater degree of intellectual capability than may have been the norm in those days, but they still saw themselves as physically weak and delicate, something that most women these days would consider quite ridiculous.

Women are still a long way from achieving true equality, often being held back by traditionalists of their own gender. The fact that men and women are different, and have different sets of skills should not make one gender superior to the other. Things, in the west at least, are changing and more and more these days we see women working in professions that even a few years ago would have been considered unthinkable. Maybe eventually we will begin to see more female composers and conductors.

Just as an aside, it's interesting to note that in popular music, the female singer/songwriter is hardly a rarity, but even that is q phenomemon that has only come about in the last 50 years or so.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

SiegendesLicht said:


> So, what's your solution?


I don't have one. But then, it would seem, neither do you, if indeed solutions are what we are discussing here.


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## SiegendesLicht (Mar 4, 2012)

GregMitchell said:


> I think the analogy works quite well. I was thinking about perception rather than legality. Most women over 100 years ago didn't question the fact that they were not allowed to vote. Nor did they question when men told them they were delicate creatures who were more prone to catching a common cold than men. The women in Jane Austen's novels are allowed a greater degree of intellectual capability than may have been the norm in those days, but they still saw themselves as physically weak and delicate, something that most women these days would consider quite ridiculous.
> 
> Women are still a long way from achieving true equality, often being held back by traditionalists of their own gender.* The fact that men and women are different, and have different sets of skills should not make one gender superior to the other.* Things, in the west at least, are changing and more and more these days we see women working in professions that even a few years ago would have been considered unthinkable. Maybe eventually we will begin to see more female composers and conductors.
> 
> Just as an aside, it's interesting to note that in popular music, the female singer/songwriter is hardly a rarity, but even that is q phenomemon that has only come about in the last 50 years or so.


You see, that is only your perception. You are the only one who is bringing up the notion of superiority.


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

At Opera Philadelphia they have been putting an emphasis on female singers, conductors and composers of late.
The most recent one is Missy Mazzoli who wrote _Breaking the Waves_. And of course the afore mentioned Jennifer Higdon's _Cold Mountain _of last season.
Perhaps the "solution" you are seeking is simply "time".
And it looks like time has decided to be kinder and gentler to women finally.
I believe you will be seeing more and more women coming to the forefront in the classical music world.
They already lead in the pop area. (Ex: Lady Gaga, Kelly Clarkson, Adele, etc.)


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## SiegendesLicht (Mar 4, 2012)

GregMitchell said:


> I don't have one. But then, it would seem, neither do you, if indeed solutions are what we are discussing here.


Sure I do. Just allow everybody to do whatever he or she wants best. And if it just so happens that men choose the majority of certain jobs, and women choose the majority of certain other jobs, don't worry about it.


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## Loge (Oct 30, 2014)

They had a really good opera written by a woman on the BBC.






I believe Calixto Bieito is dying to direct this one.


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## Headphone Hermit (Jan 8, 2014)

SiegendesLicht said:


> Sure I do. Just allow everybody to do whatever he or she wants best. And if it just so happens that men choose the majority of certain jobs, and women choose the majority of certain other jobs, don't worry about it.


I'm glad that you are too young (apparently) to remember the days when gender stereotyping was used as a barrier to women doing 'men's' jobs (and, incidentally, the other way round). However, I *do* remember the days when women were discouraged from doing many jobs that are today open to them if they wish to do them.

Times have changed very quickly (in some areas) - as an example, I was criticised (by a woman) for buying my daughter Lego bricks in the early 1990s because "They were a boy's toy" and therefore they were unsuitable for a girl. I'm glad that she was able to study physics at a top university without consideration of her gender being any part of the process at all - but it wasn't so long ago that this wasn't the case.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

SiegendesLicht said:


> You see, that is only your perception. You are the only one who is bringing up the notion of superiority.


It most certainly is not my perception, as I think is perfectly clear from my posts. Please refrain from putting words in my mouth. However for centuries men have considered themselves superior to women. In some cultures they still do. Pointing that out does not mean I agree with it.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

SiegendesLicht said:


> Sure I do. Just allow everybody to do whatever he or she wants best. And if it just so happens that men choose the majority of certain jobs, and women choose the majority of certain other jobs, don't worry about it.


Tell that to Emily Pankhurst.


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## SiegendesLicht (Mar 4, 2012)

^ I thought she's been dead for almost a hundred years


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## Headphone Hermit (Jan 8, 2014)

SiegendesLicht said:


> ^ I thought she's been dead for almost a hundred years


 .... and the battle is still 'on' - try this from November 2015, for instance - "women shouldn't be airline pilots" etc!

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/p...-they-have-periods-and-hormones-a6740931.html


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

SiegendesLicht said:


> ^ I thought she's been dead for almost a hundred years


You wouldn't think so though.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

SiegendesLicht said:


> It's in the same category as complaining that there are not more female truck drivers or female programmers. There are things that the overwhelming majority of women are simply not interested in.


How do you know what the overwhelming majority of women are interested in? How many women constitute an "overwhelming" majority? How "interested" do women have to be to part of that majority, or of the presumably underwhelming minority? Is this discussion even about majorities and minorities? Should a brilliantly accomplished woman who can't find a job playing the cello in an orchestra, or teaching composition at a conservatory, feel reassured by the fact that an "overwhelming majority" of women aren't "interested" in doing such things anyway? Can we presume that until 2003 not a single woman in Vienna was "interested" in playing in the Vienna Philharmonic?


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

SiegendesLicht said:


> Someone who is really, really passionate about something and has a true talent for it, will not be kept from it by anything people say.


Yeah...And every red-blooded Amurrican boy can be president (and girl too? Sweetie, girls aren't _"interested"_ in being president).

You must be either very young or very sheltered from the realities of life to think that talent and passion is enough to ensure success in most (all?) of the human societies that have existed on this planet, where what people want to do and what they actually end up having to do are determined by a great many factors beyond their control. Humans do not pop out of the womb armed with talent, passion, self-confidence, and determination, and even if they are fortunate enough to develop these qualities during passage through the minefield known as childhood their chances of being able to deploy their abilities in the adult world are limited by the ideologies and social, economic, and political structures they encounter and must participate in.

Isn't this painfully obvious? Or are you and everyone you know living your dreams?


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Here is an interesting article about the presence of women in music. It presents plenty of statistics and takes no ideological stand. It doesn't have much to say about opera, but its tracking of women's progress in various areas of the music professions certainly gives the lie to any notion that women lack either ability or interest.

http://www.oxfordmusiconline.com/public/page/Women_in_music


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## Figleaf (Jun 10, 2014)

Woodduck said:


> Yeah...And every red-blooded Amurrican boy can be president (and girl too? Sweetie, girls aren't _"interested"_ in being president).
> 
> You must be either very young or very sheltered from the realities of life to think that talent and passion is enough to ensure success in most (all?) of the human societies that have existed on this planet, where what people want to do and what they actually end up having to do are determined by a great many factors beyond their control. Humans do not pop out of the womb armed with talent, passion, self-confidence, and determination, and even if they are fortunate enough to develop these qualities during passage through the minefield known as childhood their chances of being able to deploy their abilities in the adult world are limited by the ideologies and social, economic, and political structures they encounter and must participate in.
> 
> Isn't this painfully obvious?* Or are you and everyone you know living your dreams?*


I believe that some of us who are young like SL, or indeed not so young like me, _are_ pursuing our dreams with a reasonable chance of living them, and that's to be encouraged.  Still, your points are very good ones, and I like the fact that you have brought class (or 'social, economic and political structures') into the debate. At my school only those with some existing musical experience (inevitably pupils from relatively privileged backgrounds) were allowed to learn an instrument, and while this wouldn't absolutely deter a disciplined and talented autodidact, it would certainly teach them something meaningful about who gets to have opportunities and encouragement from those in positions of influence, and who doesn't. If our autodidact instrumentalist had been female it seems likely that she might have met additional discouragement if she had aspired to compose or conduct, as outlined by Becca earlier. It's these multiple disadvantages of (at least) class and gender which conspire to thwart the ambition of not all, but many able people.


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## SiegendesLicht (Mar 4, 2012)

Woodduck said:


> Yeah...And every red-blooded Amurrican boy can be president (and girl too? Sweetie, girls aren't _"interested"_ in being president).
> 
> You must be either very young or very sheltered from the realities of life to think that talent and passion is enough to ensure success in most (all?) of the human societies that have existed on this planet, where what people want to do and what they actually end up having to do are determined by a great many factors beyond their control. Humans do not pop out of the womb armed with talent, passion, self-confidence, and determination, and even if they are fortunate enough to develop these qualities during passage through the minefield known as childhood their chances of being able to deploy their abilities in the adult world are limited by the ideologies and social, economic, and political structures they encounter and must participate in.
> 
> Isn't this painfully obvious? Or are you and everyone you know living your dreams?


Living my dreams? To some extent. Right now at this moment I am dreaming of doing a 200 km ride on my bike as part of an amateur cycling event. That is definitely something more men dream about than women, but nobody keeps the latter from participating either. And if I cannot make, it is not because of some perceived discrimination, but simply because the road is too long. You see, often it is so that the very nature of the dream discriminates against people who do not have it in them. Not everyone can become a composer, not everyone can do 200 km, not everyone can drive a truck, not everyone has mathematical abilities... etc.

The most common dream of humanity is probably to get rich without having to do anything for it. And that is accessible both to men and to women. The lottery does not discriminate at all.

PS. And please, don't apply the word "Amurrican" to me. I have nothing to do with "Amurricans" and their political realities whatsoever.


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## SiegendesLicht (Mar 4, 2012)

Woodduck said:


> Yeah...And every red-blooded Amurrican boy can be president (and girl too? Sweetie, girls aren't _"interested"_ in being president).


And what is the poor girl supposed to do, who does not dream of becoming a president or a CEO of a transnational corporation, or a famous composer, or anything else rich and glamorous, but simply dreams of being with a man she loves, having a family, an ordinary non-glamorous job... you know, simple, non-pretentious dreams? Since we are talking superiority and inferiority here, is she somehow inferior? It seems so at least.


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## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

GregMitchell said:


> Just as a by the by, Roxanna Panufnik's opera *Silver Birch* will premiere at Garsington in 2017.
> 
> Her previous opera, *Inkle and Yarico* (1996) was commissioned for and performed by the Holders Season, Barbados 1997.
> 
> ...


I've heard the last two on the list (neither live), and enjoyed Saariaho's greatly. I'm pleased to hear that it's coming to the Met and hopefully it will reach a wide audience. Chin's Alice has gotten rave reviews, and given how much I enjoy her other music, I was surprised at how little I found myself interested in the work. It might have been the odd staging (on the DVD that was released). At any rate, I'll still be interested to see her follow-up, _Through the Looking Glass_, when it is premiered.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

SiegendesLicht said:


> And what is the poor girl supposed to do, who does not dream of becoming a president or a CEO of a transnational corporation, or a famous composer, or anything else rich and glamorous, but simply dreams of being with a man she loves, having a family, an ordinary non-glamorous job... you know, simple, non-pretentious dreams? Since we are talking superiority and inferiority here, is she somehow inferior? It seems so at least.


It sounds as if someone has a rather large chip on their shoulder here. Nobody is arguing that women shouldn't have a choice, but it is important to remember there was a time when getting married and raising a family was the only option open to them, and, for some women, that is still the only one. In any case your "dream" of being with someone you love, having a family and an ordinary non-glamorous job is non gender specific. Can't men have that dream too?


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## Figleaf (Jun 10, 2014)

SiegendesLicht said:


> And what is the poor girl supposed to do, who does not dream of becoming a president or a CEO of a transnational corporation, or a famous composer, or anything else rich and glamorous, but simply dreams of being with a man she loves, having a family, an ordinary non-glamorous job... you know, simple, non-pretentious dreams? Since we are talking superiority and inferiority here, is she somehow inferior? It seems so at least.


I deeply resent it too when some feminists deprecate the 'simple, non-pretentious dreams' of having a partner and family and a job which isn't focused on achieving that coveted seat in the boardroom (which most men don't get a shot at either). I don't think anyone here is claiming that women with aspirations to live mostly ordinary lives are inferior to women with with ambitions to compose music and have it performed. We're talking about equality of opportunity, or the lack of it.


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## Headphone Hermit (Jan 8, 2014)

SiegendesLicht said:


> Living my dreams? To some extent. Right now at this moment I am dreaming of doing a 200 km ride on my bike as part of an amateur cycling event. That is definitely something more men dream about than women, but nobody keeps the latter from participating either.


That's just as it should be

But ... it really isn't that long ago when women were frowned upon for doing something like this - simply because they were women. Honestly! My girlfriend (in 1978) was criticised because she rode a 'boy's bike' - ie one that had drop-down handlebars and a high cross brace - girls at that time were expected to ride a bike that you could 'step through'.

I know! It seems like the Dark Ages, but as a number of us are saying - it *was* a world where gender mattered in terms of jobs, hobbies .... and all kinds of things that you wouldn't expect today .... just remembered - in many of the pubs that I went to, single women weren't served at the bar and you couldn't order a pint for a woman (she had to have a half-pint and the man had a full pint). I really am glad that such things are unimaginable for a woman today.

... and in some areas - gender still matters more than talent (unfortunately)


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## Badinerie (May 3, 2008)

*Well they say women shouldn't be
the president
Cause we go crazy from time to time
Well push my button baby here I come
Yeah look out baby
I'm at high tide*

Laurie Anderson "Beautiful Red Dress"


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

Headphone Hermit said:


> Dame Evelyn Glennie?
> 
> But I accept the point that women are a small proportion of many orchestras


I've never seen her at the back of the orchestra, though. She is always out front. So you can be a star percussionist if you are a women, but not a regular, common or garden percussionist?

N.


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

GregMitchell said:


> I think the analogy works quite well. I was thinking about perception rather than legality. Most women over 100 years ago didn't question the fact that they were not allowed to vote. Nor did they question when men told them they were delicate creatures who were more prone to catching a common cold than men. The women in Jane Austen's novels are allowed a greater degree of intellectual capability than may have been the norm in those days, *but they still saw themselves as physically weak and delicate, something that most women these days would consider quite ridiculous.*


This is really interesting because I don't see Austen's female characters as weak and delicate really. Jane Austen's mother was a dreadful hypochondriac and her daughter quite often parodied her mother's need for constant sofa rest in some of her female characters and her books are full of sarcasm. Of course there are social differences between different periods in history, but I'm not sure that women really did view themselves as differently in the past as some people today think. By the way, I'm very much enjoying your posts in this thread.

N.

N.


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## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

The Conte said:


> I've never seen her at the back of the orchestra, though. She is always out front. So you can be a star percussionist if you are a women, but not a regular, common or garden percussionist?
> 
> N.


A DVD I have of Jurowski conducting the London Philharmonic in Wagner, Berg, and Mahler shows several percussionists, one of whom is a woman. She even gets the best job in the Berg, wielding a hammer about as tall as she is! Sorry I couldn't get a screenshot.


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## Guest (Mar 1, 2016)

Headphone Hermit said:


> Are orchestral players *that* easily distracted? Do handsome male conductors have to wear masks so that the female and gay-male players are not distracted from their professional business?
> 
> I haven't played in an orchestra so I can't comment about how weak an orchestral player's powers of concentration are,


No, nor have I, so nor can I do more than speculate. But my experience of people is that 100% concentration is a rarer gift. There will be surely be some moments of ennui for the bassoonist or the percussionist when the outside world might intrude. 1st violins are usually kept too busy!



SiegendesLicht said:


> And what is the poor girl supposed to do, who does not dream of becoming a president or a CEO of a transnational corporation, or a famous composer, or anything else rich and glamorous, but simply dreams of being with a man she loves, having a family, an ordinary non-glamorous job... you know, simple, non-pretentious dreams? Since we are talking superiority and inferiority here, is she somehow inferior? It seems so at least.


What 'the poor girl' is supposed to do is the same as 'the poor boy'. It's the fact that one gender has historically been prevented (on account of her gender) from doing some of what she wants that is being pointed out here - and that that history is still being made.

As for the idea that there are women who have the simple 'dream' of being with the man they love (etc), I doubt it, unless they lead such a limited life that that is all they can aspire to. Don't get me wrong. I've no doubt that my wife is very happy that the man she dreamed of living with and having a family with showed up when she was 21 and we're still together 32 years later. That dream looks rather different from this side of 40 than the younger side, and what she dreams of now is significance, recognition, to have done something worthwhile other than being a good wife and mother.

"Dreams", for what they are worth, are not unchanging aspirations.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Is Glennie, indeed, the only female percussionist? How about a male orchestral harpist? Anybody seen one lately?


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

KenOC said:


> Is Glennie, indeed, the only female percussionist? How about a male orchestral harpist? Anybody seen one lately?









https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Remy_van_Kesteren


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Pugg said:


> https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Remy_van_Kesteren


Sorry, can't read that. Is he an orchestral harpist or a soloist?


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

KenOC said:


> Sorry, can't read that. Is he an orchestral harpist or a soloist?


A bit translated for you, hope it helps



> Are many prices led to concerts around the world, from Europe to the us, Japan and Africa. At the age of 16 he made his debut in the Amsterdam Concertgebouw with the Dutch Chamber Orchestra. A year before that, he played on the occasion of the baptism of Princess Amalia and he performed at Carnegie Hall, New York. In 2011, he was Young Artist in Residence at the NJO Summer Music in Gelderland. Late last year he toured Belgium, Netherlands, Luxembourg and Germany in the famous Night of the Proms. As the only classical soloist he performed in addition to high-profile pop artists like Anastacia and the legendary Jacksons. He was quiet as a mouse with 500,000 visitors among other Smetanova Die Moldau. According to the Proms-organization has Remy "the guts, the looks and the mastery to draw attention to a unique instrument, which never previously on Night of the Proms was in the spotlight". Remy was "the most beautiful surprise of the evening," said the Flemish newspaper De Morgen.


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## dgee (Sep 26, 2013)

Female percussionists are not uncommon. I know a few. Notably, Cynthia Yeh is principal percussion in Chicago. I also know some male harpists.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Pugg said:


> A bit translated for you, hope it helps


Thanks. A soloist, it seems?


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## SiegendesLicht (Mar 4, 2012)

GregMitchell said:


> *It sounds as if someone has a rather large chip on their shoulder here.* Nobody is arguing that women shouldn't have a choice, but it is important to remember there was a time when getting married and raising a family was the only option open to them, and, for some women, that is still the only one. In any case your "dream" of being with someone you love, having a family and an ordinary non-glamorous job is non gender specific. Can't men have that dream too?





MacLeod said:


> *As for the idea that there are women who have the simple 'dream' of being with the man they love (etc), I doubt it, unless they lead such a limited life that that is all they can aspire to.* Don't get me wrong. I've no doubt that my wife is very happy that the man she dreamed of living with and having a family with showed up when she was 21 and we're still together 32 years later. That dream looks rather different from this side of 40 than the younger side, and what she dreams of now is significance, recognition, to have done something worthwhile other than being a good wife and mother.


Do you see why I have a chip on my shoulder now? 

It's the notion that anybody, a woman in particular, who does not see the sense of her life in participating in the proverbial rat race and making it to the top, is limited. You are saying you want to give women a choice, but most of the women I know are in the rat race only because they have no other choice.


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## Zhdanov (Feb 16, 2016)

this thread pertains to the politics section, does it not?


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## Zhdanov (Feb 16, 2016)

Figleaf said:


> We're talking about equality of opportunity, or the lack of it.


talking politics, that is, however what does this have to do with music?

as for equal opportunities, it makes no sense, because people are born not equal, in many respects.

so have done with the subject that has no point other than rattle the society.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

KenOC said:


> Thanks. A soloist, it seems?


Both, but at the moment he has a crossover album out so, he appears in all the tall shows.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

KenOC said:


> Is Glennie, indeed, the only female percussionist? How about a male orchestral harpist? Anybody seen one lately?


They exist. And one of the most famous from some years ago, Ossian Ellis, was a man. Male harpists are not so rare.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

SiegendesLicht said:


> Do you see why I have a chip on my shoulder now?
> 
> It's the notion that anybody, a woman in particular, who does not see the sense of her life in participating in the proverbial rat race and making it to the top, is limited. You are saying you want to give women a choice, but most of the women I know are in the rat race only because they have no other choice.


Trust me: most of the _men_ I know would prefer to avoid the rat race too! It may be ungracious, but not irrelevant, to ask: how many women would want to marry a man who made that choice? In my observation, not many. It isn't only women who experience the pressure of societal expectations that they play "gender-appropriate" roles.

The fact that in our society a woman is no longer defined entirely by motherhood and her capacity to please her man is cause for celebration, not resentment. But has her expectation that her man beat the other rats to the goal of economic success relaxed to the same extent? If most of the women you know prefer to avoid the rat race, just who do they expect to enter it?

But isn't this a bit of a diversion? What does artistic creativity, and who is or isn't writing operas, have to do with the "rat race"? This thread is about music and women's participation in the music world, not about participation in the work force or the general issue of who gets stereotyped how and by whom. There are plenty of stereotypes and potentially oppressive social expectations to go around, and we all - men and women, black and white, gay and straight - have our own to deal with.

Neither men nor women pursue the arts because they have "no other choice." A life in music is ordinarily a free and joyous choice, and the choice of vast numbers of people. But it is interesting to note, regarding women in particular, that the pursuit of some musical activity - playing the piano, or singing - was in a more "primitive" era considered a highly desirable and admirable feminine activity, an ornament of civilization. After all, most men, out among the rats validating their "manhood," didn't have the time for it.


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## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

Woodduck said:


> Trust me: most of the _men_ I know would prefer to avoid the rat race too! It may be ungracious, but not irrelevant, to ask: how many women would want to marry a man who made that choice? In my observation, not many. It isn't only women who experience the pressure of societal expectations that they play "gender-appropriate" roles.
> 
> The fact that in our society a woman is no longer defined entirely by motherhood and her capacity to please her man is cause for celebration, not resentment. But has her expectation that her man beat the other rats to the goal of economic success relaxed to the same extent? If most of the women you know prefer to avoid the rat race, just who do they expect to enter it?
> 
> ...


No women I know of are being prohibited from doing the things they should be doing already- which is going out and making your mark on life.

If some people succeed with a higher frequency than others in the game of life, I'd be willing to bet that it has more to do with aptitude, ability, and enterprise than it does with the imaginary malevolent forces of Dialectical Materialism.


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

Marschallin Blair said:


> No women I know of are being prohibited from doing the things they should be doing already- which is going out and making your mark on life.
> 
> If some people succeed with a higher frequency than others in the game of life, I'd be willing to bet that it has more to do with aptitude, ability, and enterprise than it does with the imaginary malevolent forces of Dialectical Materialism.




And I'd be willing to bet that you are quite wrong. There is a big step between aptitude/ability and opportunity, and that gap gets very big in some places where you are dependent on other. There are certainly a lot of operas composed by women, but when it comes go getting them staged, all the enterprise in the world won't get you there without the goodwill of those who control the opera companies and their money.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Marschallin Blair said:


> No women I know of are being prohibited from doing the things they should be doing already- which is going out and making your mark on life.
> 
> If some people succeed with a higher frequency than others in the game of life, I'd be willing to bet that it has more to do with aptitude, ability, and enterprise than it does with the imaginary malevolent forces of Dialectical Materialism.




I don't see why you quoted my post - how yours is a response to it, or how it relates to the remarks of SiegendesLicht to which I was responding.

But, just taking your statements in isolation, I see a lot of undefined terms which seem to harbor a lot of connotations and possible assumptions. "Prohibited," "should," "going out," "making a mark," "some people," "the game of life," and those "imaginary forces of Dialectical Materialism"...

How does all this speak to the position of women in classical music, presently or historically?


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## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

Woodduck said:


> I don't see why you quoted my post - how yours is a response to it, or how it relates to the remarks of SiegendesLicht to which I was responding.
> 
> But, just taking your statements in isolation, I see a lot of undefined terms which seem to harbor a lot of connotations and possible assumptions. "Prohibited," "should," "going out," "making a mark," "some people," "the game of life," and those "imaginary forces of Dialectical Materialism"...
> 
> How does all this speak to the position of women in classical music, presently or historically?


My quote of your quote_ infra_, has the boldface verbatim of you saying:

*This thread is about music and women's participation in the music world, not about participation in the work force or the general issue of who gets stereotyped how and by whom. *

Which is what I agree with.

The thread ' ' _isn't about _' '- as you wrote: ". . . participation in the work force or the general issue of who gets stereotyped how and by whom."

I was addressing that paltry and weak off-topic point that I felt should nonetheless be addressed.


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## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

Becca said:


> And I'd be willing to bet that you are quite wrong. There is a big step between aptitude/ability and opportunity, and that gap gets very big in some places where you are dependent on other. There are certainly a lot of operas composed by women, but when it comes go getting them staged, all the enterprise in the world won't get you there without the goodwill of those who control the opera companies and their money.


Well, I certainly believe in _la carrière est ouverte aux talents_ for all women.

But what are you saying?- that people should be forced to subsidize composers and artists who they ordinarily wouldn't pay to see with their own money?

Even so, it wouldn't axiomatically guarantee that a Saariaho will make more money than a Britney Spears.

But I'd hardly call either of those women exploited or being denied opportunity.


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

Marschallin Blair said:


> But what are you saying?- that people should be forced to subsidize composers and artists that they ordinarily wouldn't pay to see with their own money?


Not at all ... while things are better now than they have been in the past, it is still not a level playing field in terms of opportunities for women compared to men. Ask any woman who has had to push the bounds of some previously male field and they will tell you that being equivalently talented and qualified does not give you an equal chance.


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## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

Becca said:


> Not at all ... while things are better now than they have been in the past, it is still not a level playing field in terms of opportunities for women compared to men. Ask any woman who has had to push the bounds of some previously male field and they will tell you that being equivalently talented and qualified does not give you an equal chance.


Can you give me some concrete examples with specificity of what you're talking about?


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

Specifically in the issue of opera presentation, not easily because, as with any issue of discrimination, there are so many ways to obfuscate the underlying reasons. However in the larger area of women in the professional performing arts, just see the comments from one of my early posts on this thread, also the well-document attitude of the Vienna Philharmonic with regard to women members (one which fortunately is starting to change, albeit slowly.)


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## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

Becca said:


> Specifically in the issue of opera presentation, not easily because, as with any issue of discrimination, there are so many ways to obfuscate the underlying reasons. However in the larger area of women in the professional performing arts, just see the comments from one of my early posts on this thread, also the well-document attitude of the Vienna Philharmonic with regard to women members (one which fortunately is starting to change, albeit slowly.)


Okay.

I agree that since everyone pays into a general tax fund no one should be discriminated against when it comes to their aliquot share of public ("government") services.

Absolutely.

But if some people think that they have an automatic entitlement to what another has produced- and that they have a right to be subsidized as a composer at someone else's expense- I ask: By what standard? Slavery or involuntary servitude?


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## SiegendesLicht (Mar 4, 2012)

Becca said:


> Specifically in the issue of opera presentation, not easily because, as with any issue of discrimination, there are so many ways to obfuscate the underlying reasons. However in the larger area of women in the professional performing arts, just see the comments from one of my early posts on this thread, *also the well-document attitude of the Vienna Philharmonic with regard to women members (one which fortunately is starting to change, albeit slowly.*)


As I also said on another thread about the Vienna Philarmonic, it is deeply satisfying to see someone precisely in the German-speaking world who shows the middle finger to the political correctness and the police thereof  They are after creating beauty, not after fulfilling gender/racial quotas.


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## Zhdanov (Feb 16, 2016)

if we project opera onto literature, gender issues did not prevent, say, Agatha Christie from becoming a famous writer; same about today - just need to write a decent opera, instead of wasting time on political struggle.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

SiegendesLicht said:


> As I also said on another thread about the Vienna Philarmonic, it is deeply satisfying to see someone precisely in the German-speaking world who shows the middle finger to the political correctness and the police thereof  *They are after creating beauty, not after fulfilling gender/racial quotas.*


Ah yes. A middle finger raised to bless the perpetuation of our primitive ancestors' prejudice against women is precisely what the German-speaking world needs. Praise Wotan that despite the German-speaking world's fashionable efforts to cleanse its culture and its conscience from the cataclysms of the last century, we still have a few brave Aryan heroes who understand that beauty is a function of gender and race, and that the infiltration of females and aliens, if left unchecked, will corrupt the true "Wiener Blut" beyond redemption.

Alas, I'm afraid the cause of cultural purity hasn't much breath left in it, and that the German-speaking Philharmonic is doomed to a state of multigender, multiracial degeneration. Better stock up on Beethoven and Bruckner recordings now, so you won't starve when the women and Asians finally bomb the Musikverein.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Come on ladies, it's not much to ask. Write an opera that is worth us all spending money to hear and we will listen.


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## ma7730 (Jun 8, 2015)

DavidA said:


> Come on ladies, it's not much to ask. Write an opera that is worth us all spending money to hear and we will listen.


Pretty much what I have to say to most contemporary composers...


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

ma7730 said:


> Pretty much what I have to say to most contemporary composers...


And I second this :tiphat:


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## Guest (Mar 2, 2016)

SiegendesLicht said:


> Do you see why I have a chip on my shoulder now?


No.



SiegendesLicht said:


> As I also said on another thread about the Vienna Philarmonic, it is deeply satisfying to see someone precisely in the German-speaking world who shows the middle finger to the political correctness and the police thereof  They are after creating beauty, not after fulfilling gender/racial quotas.


What 'political correctness'? No-one was able to put forward anything resembling an intelligent argument to support the idea that the purity of sound produced by a male-dominated VPO would be lessened by the admission of women. It's not political correctness to suggest that applicants to join an organisation dedicated to the playing of music should be sorted on grounds of their ability to meet the required musical standard, not on any other basis.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

KenOC said:


> Is Glennie, indeed, the only female percussionist? How about a male orchestral harpist? Anybody seen one lately?


I forgot the world famous
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xavier_de_Maistre_(harpist)


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Zhdanov said:


> if we project opera onto literature, gender issues did not prevent, say, Agatha Christie from becoming a famous writer; same about today - just need to write a decent opera, instead of wasting time on political struggle.


However gender issues did affect the Brontes and George Eliot, who had to use male names in order to succeed. Indeed, when the sex of Charlotte Bronte, writing under the name Currer Bell, was questioned, one critic opined that *Jane Eyre* must have been written by a man, as no woman would ever assert her independence in the way Charlotte does. Familiarity with the novel and its many adaptations for the screen, should not divert us from its feminist message. It was an incredibly revolutionary novel, as was Emily Bronte's *Wuthering Heights*, for slightly different reasons (the total rejection of religion and Christian morals).


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## Guest (Mar 2, 2016)

Zhdanov said:


> this thread pertains to the politics section, does it not?


I think it pertains to about 1970, when denial of opportunity on irrelevant grounds was the mainstream norm. (At least in the UK) such discrimination is now illegal. Attitudes tend to change slowly though, over generations.


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

But as with any other form of discrimination, making it illegal makes it covert not overt. I do accept that attitudes and reality are changing, albeit slower in some areas than others. As an example of change that has been happening in one particular area...

www.telegraph.co.uk/music/classical-music/how-women-made-the-violin-their-own/


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## Guest (Mar 2, 2016)

I agree it drives attitudes underground somewhat, but it at least makes public the attitude that "this is not acceptable overt practice." We can but try!


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

On looking at the divide between male singer/songwriters and female singer/songwriters on my iPod I noticed that the proportions were roughly 70/30 in favour of females. I'm not sure what, if anything, that actually means in the real world because this is my iPod that reflects my taste. My rather tenuous point is that at the end of the day choices are made and as long as the majority of choices are made by men, women are going to be treated rather shabbily in comparison with their male counterparts. We are unfortunately still a fair distance away from the day that a choice is made purely on a persons ability rather than gender, race, sexual orientation or any other nonsensical obstacle. Don't get me started


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Becca said:


> But as with any other form of discrimination, making it illegal makes it covert not overt. I do accept that attitudes and reality are changing, albeit slower in some areas than others. As an example of change that has been happening in one particular area...
> 
> www.telegraph.co.uk/music/classical-music/how-women-made-the-violin-their-own/


Hmm "only one man out of 22 finalists." If it were the other way round - i.e. one woman out of 22 finalists - there would be howls that women were being discriminated against!


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

DavidA said:


> Hmm "only one man out of 22 finalists." If it were the other way round - i.e. one woman out of 22 finalists - there would be howls that women were being discriminated against!


Of course you're trying to make a joke. But in case you're even a wee bit serious, consider the possibility that if it were only one woman out of 22, discrimination might in fact be a factor. Parallels can be more apparent than real; superficial similarity is not identity; different causation can produce similar results.

If men are not howling in this case, it's because they'd look ridiculous if they did.


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## SiegendesLicht (Mar 4, 2012)

Woodduck said:


> Ah yes. A middle finger raised to bless the perpetuation of our primitive ancestors' prejudice against women is precisely what the German-speaking world needs. Praise Wotan that despite the German-speaking world's fashionable efforts to cleanse its culture and its conscience from the cataclysms of the last century, we still have a few brave Aryan heroes who understand that beauty is a function of gender and race, and that the infiltration of females and aliens, if left unchecked, will corrupt the true "Wiener Blut" beyond redemption.
> 
> Alas, I'm afraid the cause of cultural purity hasn't much breath left in it, and that the German-speaking Philharmonic is doomed to a state of multigender, multiracial degeneration. Better stock up on Beethoven and Bruckner recordings now, so you won't starve when the women and Asians finally bomb the Musikverein.


I am well aware of the fact that _Pax Teutonica_ is currently losing to _Pax Americana_ on all fronts. The _Pax Teutonica_ stands for true beauty and the striving for perfection - the same striving that has brought us Bach, Beethoven, Wagner and many others. If you have anything to praise Wotan for, then praise him for the same creative impulse that has kept this striving alive through the ages. The _Pax Americana_ stands for the exchange of quality for equality, and for the lowest common denominator. And who knows, maybe when the latter falls, we might have beauty and greatness again.

As DavidA said before me, it is not much to ask for. Let any woman compose an opera that is at least as wonderful as Tannhäuser - and it will surely be accepted. It seems though that none can - and no modern man can either (at least they are equal here). The lowest common denominator takes its toll.

As for the Wiener Philarmoniker - maybe it is that they keep to a higher standard than all others. And those who cannot make it, whine about discrimination.


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## Wood (Feb 21, 2013)

Woodduck said:


> Of course you're trying to make a joke. But in case you're even a wee bit serious, consider the possibility that if it were only one woman out of 22, discrimination might in fact be a factor. Parallels can be more apparent than real; superficial similarity is not identity; different causation can produce similar results.
> 
> If men are not howling in this case, it's because they'd look ridiculous if they did.


How about the 'babe factor'?


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Woodduck said:


> Of course you're trying to make a joke. But in case you're even a wee bit serious, consider the possibility that if it were only one woman out of 22, discrimination might in fact be a factor. Parallels can be more apparent than real; superficial similarity is not identity; different causation can produce similar results.
> 
> *If men are not howling in this case, it's because they'd look ridiculous if they did.*


So why is it OK for women to howl 'discrimination' and not men? In fact men are discriminated against, at least indirectly. I mean, does Anne Sophie Mutter wear those gravity-defying, figure-hugging gowns just because she fancies them? I think not. Don't the sheer glamorous looks of many of the latest female violinists on the photographs just give a slight impression it's not all about violin playing?


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

SiegendesLicht said:


> I am well aware of the fact that _Pax Teutonica_ is currently losing to _Pax Americana_ on all fronts. The _Pax Teutonica_ stands for true beauty and the striving for perfection - the same striving that has brought us Bach, Beethoven, Wagner and many others. If you have anything to praise Wotan for, then praise him for the same creative impulse that has kept this striving alive through the ages. The _Pax Americana_ stands for the exchange of quality for equality, and for the lowest common denominator. And who knows, maybe when the latter falls, we might have beauty and greatness again.
> 
> As DavidA said before me, it is not much to ask for. Let any woman compose an opera that is at least as wonderful as Tannhäuser - and it will surely be accepted. It seems though that none can - and no modern man can either (at least they are equal here). The lowest common denominator takes its toll.
> 
> As for the Wiener Philarmoniker - maybe it is that they keep to a higher standard than all others. And those who cannot make it, whine about discrimination.


It might be awkward to ask for a definition of this "Pax Teutonica" or the "striving for true beauty and perfection" you say it "stands for." Frankly, it all sounds like a fantasy of personification, some sort of mythical Teutonic deity you think governs German culture from some Valhallan headquarters which somehow escaped the Gotterdammerung, a god who is now for some reason losing the battle with the Nibelungs of America.

Sorry, but are my images any more fanciful than your theory of culture?

Let me just ask a simple question. What monuments to "true beauty and perfection" do you think this striving Pax Teutonica has bestowed on the world since German culture in the 1930s gave us a world-shaking monument to human depravity? Where, today, is Germany's erstwhile cultural greatness? That "striving" that "brought us" Bach and Beethoven - what is it bringing us now? Are the American Nibelungs responsible for the artistic decline of our beloved Wagner's Bayreuth, which you and I both bemoan? Is the present state of the "high" arts in Europe a consequence of an American "least common denominator," or is it the result of profound changes in culture which long predate any influence from the New World? Might not the German gods, and the Western World's gods, themselves have taken a wrong turn somewhere? Might they, like Wotan, have brought about their own twilight?

I see no need to defend or condemn any culture here. It's unnecessary and irrelevant to the subject of this thread. But I have to tell you: Bach, Beethoven and Wagner died a long time ago. And we Nibelungs in least-common-denominator land are just as fond of them as you are.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

DavidA said:


> So why is it OK for women to howl 'discrimination' and not men? In fact men are discriminated against, at least indirectly. I mean, does Anne Sophie Mutter wear those gravity-defying, figure-hugging gowns just because she fancies them? I think not. Don't the sheer glamorous looks of many of the latest female violinists on the photographs just give a slight impression it's not all about violin playing?


It's fine for men to plead discrimination when they are in fact discriminated against. I must say it's hard to recall a culture or historical period in which that's been prevalent.

I don't see what Anne-Sophie Mutter's dresses have to do with it. Are men complaining that they're not allowed to dress like that? Would _you_ like to do so? If Anne-Sophie _doesn't_ fancy her revealing costumes, why do you think she'd wear them? Do you think the idea that female sexuality sells music was invented by women?

Discrimination is, regrettably, a human propensity that takes numerous forms, and it goes on wherever the opportunity presents itself. I am baffled by the denial I'm seeing on this thread.


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

Woodduck said:


> It's fine for men to plead discrimination when they are in fact discriminated against. I must say it's hard to recall a culture or historical period in which that's been prevalent.
> 
> I don't see what Anne-Sophie Mutter's dresses have to do with it. Are men complaining that they're not allowed to dress like that? Would _you_ like to do so? If Anne-Sophie _doesn't_ fancy her revealing costumes, why do you think she'd wear them? Do you think the idea that female sexuality sells music was invented by women?
> 
> Discrimination is, regrettably, a human propensity that takes numerous forms, and it goes on wherever the opportunity presents itself. I am baffled by the denial I'm seeing on this thread.


Amen!..............


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Woodduck said:


> It's fine for men to plead discrimination when they are in fact discriminated against. I must say it's hard to recall a culture or historical period in which that's been prevalent.
> 
> I don't see what Anne-Sophie Mutter's dresses have to do with it. Are men complaining that they're not allowed to dress like that? Would _you_ like to do so? If Anne-Sophie _doesn't_ fancy her revealing costumes, why do you think she'd wear them? Do you think the idea that female sexuality sells music was invented by women?
> 
> Discrimination is, regrettably, a human propensity that takes numerous forms, and it goes on wherever the opportunity presents itself. I am baffled by the denial I'm seeing on this thread.


You obviously have missed my point. Never mind.


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## Guest (Mar 3, 2016)

SiegendesLicht said:


> As for the Wiener Philarmoniker - maybe it is that they keep to a higher standard than all others. And those who cannot make it, whine about discrimination.


Are you arguing that it was entirely coincidental that the players in the WPO happened all to be male at the time of selection on merit alone? Or that you support the idea that the highest quality of orchestral sound can only be reached with an all-male orchestra?

Or does this represent the attitude that prevailed before 1997...



> There is a 1996 quote from Dieter Flury, flautist and current business director: "From the beginning, we have spoken of the special Viennese qualities.... The way we make music here is... something that has a lot to do with the soul. The soul does not let itself be separated from the cultural roots that we have here in central Europe. And it also doesn't allow itself to be separated from gender...


http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-e...-feature-so-few-women-and-ethnic-1915666.html


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## Wood (Feb 21, 2013)

Woodduck said:


> It's fine for men to plead discrimination when they are in fact discriminated against. I must say it's hard to recall a culture or historical period in which that's been prevalent.
> 
> I don't see what Anne-Sophie Mutter's dresses have to do with it. Are men complaining that they're not allowed to dress like that? Would _you_ like to do so? If Anne-Sophie _doesn't_ fancy her revealing costumes, why do you think she'd wear them? Do you think the idea that female sexuality sells music was invented by women?
> 
> Discrimination is, regrettably, a human propensity that takes numerous forms, and it goes on wherever the opportunity presents itself. I am baffled by the denial I'm seeing on this thread.


Do you think that an ugly male violinist would have the same chance of career success as a pretty young woman, given that their musical talents are equal?


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Wood said:


> Do you think that an ugly male violinist would have the same chance of career success as a pretty young woman, given that their musical talents are equal?


One should remember that Kennedy first made a name for himself when he looked like this.










very establishment.

It was after he became famous that his look went a bit wild. I doubt he'd have even got a look in if he'd looked the way he does above when first forging his career.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

GregMitchell said:


> One should remember that Kennedy first made a name for himself when he looked like this.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Kennedy basically got where he did first because he was Menuhin's protege and second because his violin playing is outstanding. His later change in image to "wild kid" always seemed to me an outworking of a hidden teenage rebellious streak that flowered a little late. Sign of a pretty disturbed personality somewhere I would say, as is his phoney working class accent. About as convincing as Dick van **** in Mary Poppins. As one whose descendants come from the East End of London 'working class' phoneys get on my nerves. For Nige's violin playing I have nothing but admiration, as long as he doesn't intersperse it with his insufferable spoken commentaries!


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## Zhdanov (Feb 16, 2016)

Woodduck said:


> German culture in the 1930s gave us a world-shaking monument to human depravity?


the Third Reich was about anything but depravity.



Woodduck said:


> Where, today, is Germany's erstwhile cultural greatness?


where else it could be now that the country had lost the war?



Woodduck said:


> Are the American Nibelungs responsible for the artistic decline of our beloved Wagner's Bayreuth, which you and I both bemoan?


yes, they are.



Woodduck said:


> Is the present state of the "high" arts in Europe a consequence of an American "least common denominator," or is it the result of profound changes in culture which long predate any influence from the New World?


the changes the world went through in the 19th century have nothing to do with the idiocy of today.


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## Zhdanov (Feb 16, 2016)

MacLeod said:


> Are you arguing that it was entirely coincidental that the players in the WPO happened all to be male at the time of selection on merit alone?


coincidental or not, the WPO may have its own traditions, even superstitions, whatever they like, because the orchestra has proven itself doing right numerous time since the 19th century, even if they did something wrong; now there cannot be anyone to tell them what to do next; they should be treated as a part of history, a museum, for that matter.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Zhdanov said:


> the Third Reich was about anything but depravity.
> .


Pardon?????????


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## Zhdanov (Feb 16, 2016)

DavidA said:


> Pardon?????????


but what did i say wrong?


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

*Woodduck: German culture in the 1930s gave us a world-shaking monument to human depravity.
*


Zhdanov said:


> the Third Reich was about anything but depravity.


Most people think it was about nothing but depravity. Why are you right?

*Woodduck: Where, today, is Germany's erstwhile cultural greatness?
*


> where else it could be now that the country had lost the war?


Please show how Hitler's defeat is responsible for the decline of German culture, and how that culture would be better off had he not lost the war. Do you wish that he had won?

*Woodduck: Are the American Nibelungs responsible for the artistic decline of our beloved Wagner's Bayreuth, which you and I both bemoan?*



> yes, they are.


Please show how America brought about the artistic decline of Bayreuth.

*Woodduck: Is the present state of the "high" arts in Europe a consequence of an American "least common denominator," or is it the result of profound changes in culture which long predate any influence from the New World?*



> the changes the world went through in the 19th century have nothing to do with the idiocy of today.


Please show that there is no causal connection between Europe's cultural past and its cultural present.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Zhdanov said:


> but what did i say wrong?


If you don't know the answer to that I suggest you study some history!


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## Zhdanov (Feb 16, 2016)

Woodduck said:


> Most people think it was about nothing but depravity.


do they?.. if so, thats news to me.



Woodduck said:


> Please show how Hitler's defeat is responsible for the decline of German culture,


because Goebbels was gone; he had kept German culture in check.



Woodduck said:


> Please show how America brought about the artistic decline of Bayreuth.


they payed or intimidated someone in German Ruling Elite into installing certain persons to sabotage Bayreuth productions.



Woodduck said:


> Please show that there is no causal connection between Europe's cultural past and its cultural present.


up till the middle of 20th century or so, Europe had common sense and, whatever changes they passed through, if something was seen as new - it was indeed new; unlike it is today where they abandoned common sense completely and try to present old stuff as new.


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## Zhdanov (Feb 16, 2016)

DavidA said:


> If you don't know the answer to that I suggest you study some history!


you can't study history without auditors accounts of the time revealed in full to the public.

still you can go by political statements. Hitler's for example, as far from depravity as one could imagine.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Zhdanov said:


> you can't study history without auditors accounts of the time revealed in full to the public.
> 
> still you can go by political statements. Hitler's for example, as far from depravity as one could imagine.


Oh I see. The accounts of the Holocaust were 'audited' I suppose? Auchwitz and Belsen never existed?


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## Zhdanov (Feb 16, 2016)

DavidA said:


> Oh I see. The accounts of the Holocaust were 'audited' I suppose? Auchwitz and Belsen never existed?


what does this have to do with depravity?


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## Guest (Mar 4, 2016)

Zhdanov said:


> what does this have to do with depravity?


Perhaps you'd better make clear what definition of 'depravity you're using.

In the meantime, we could get a little closer to the OP by considering whether the results of this research indicate something about the cultural attitudes to women and their place in society.

[edited to substitute correct weblink]

[url]http://www.odi.org/global-childcare-crisis
[/URL]


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## SiegendesLicht (Mar 4, 2012)

It seems Zhdanov is just a little bit confused as to the meaning of the word "depravity".


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Zhdanov said:


> what does this have to do with depravity?


Your definition of 'depravity' is obviously different from everyne else's.


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## Zhdanov (Feb 16, 2016)

MacLeod said:


> Perhaps you'd better make clear what definition of 'depravity you're using.





DavidA said:


> Your definition of 'depravity' is obviously different from everyne else's.


http://www.thefreedictionary.com/depravity


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## dieter (Feb 26, 2016)

DavidA said:


> What a chin that guy to the left has!


Hopefully he keeps his chins up.


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## dieter (Feb 26, 2016)

Oi Weh, what a tedious waste of my time reading through all of that. The bottom line is that in not only so called Judeo Christian history plus probably in the history of cultures I know not that much about because I was born a so-called christian, women are regarded as child bearers and slaves to their partners and children. 
That's history, that's a fact of life, unfortunate as it is. This empirical fact simply does affect what women are allowed to do. Karajan's ban on women in the BPO isn't that far back in our history. 
Hopefully this will change, hopefully the male predominant aspects of so-called Christianity and Judaism and the offspring of them both, Islam, will accept this.Ironically, though we delude ourselves that we - christian and jews - are superior to muslims - there is in the end very very little difference. And don't come back with any crap about hijabs, please, for crissake.


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## Headphone Hermit (Jan 8, 2014)

DavidA said:


> Your definition of 'depravity' is obviously different from everyne else's.


Perhaps he thinks controlling 'undesirable' traits (for example, homosexuality) is a 'moral' activity - and hence the Nazi's could not be depraved. Further, perhaps he thinks that murdering Jews, gypsies and socialists is neither 'moral' nor immoral' and therefore on this criteria, the Nazis cannot be defined as depraved either. I have heard this argument before from East of the Elbe from time to time.

Of course, as you say - this is a completely different way of envisaging what 'depravity' refers to (and - *not* one that I hold)


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## SiegendesLicht (Mar 4, 2012)

MacLeod said:


> Are you arguing that it was entirely coincidental that the players in the WPO happened all to be male at the time of selection on merit alone? Or that you support the idea that the highest quality of orchestral sound can only be reached with an all-male orchestra?


I don't know. I heard many orchestras that included male and female players and sounded brilliant. However I do believe the management of the WPO knows more about how to run an orchestra or how to produce music of highest quality than you and I do. If they believed women were absolutely necessary for their orchestra, they would invite women. Whatever policy they pursue, they have a good reason for doing it. I have the same sentiment for them that I have for the rest of the German-speaking world whenever it comes under fire from another Washington-invented ideology - feminism, multiculturalism, etc. And that sentiment is: "Just leave us alone!"


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

dieter said:


> Oi Weh, what a tedious waste of my time reading through all of that. The bottom line is that in not only so called Judeo Christian history plus probably in the history of cultures I know not that much about because I was born a so-called christian, women are regarded as child bearers and slaves to their partners and children.
> That's history, that's a fact of life, unfortunate as it is. This empirical fact simply does affect what women are allowed to do. Karajan's ban on women in the BPO isn't that far back in our history.
> Hopefully this will change, hopefully the male predominant aspects of so-called Christianity and Judaism and the offspring of them both, Islam, will accept this.Ironically, though we delude ourselves that we - christian and jews - are superior to muslims - there is in the end very very little difference. And don't come back with any crap about hijabs, please, for crissake.


I must confess your wild statements are a caricature of what really happened. Women are now now 'regarded as child bearers and slaves to their partners and children', at least where I live although I have been to parts of the world (non Judeo Christian cultures) where they certainly are. So please don't believe all you read.

Similarly your statement about Karajan's 'ban' on women in the BPO. The first woman was actually appointed, violinist Madeleine Carruzzo, by the BPO in 1982. There was a row at the appointment of another of the orchestra's first female members Sabine Meyer. Karajan hired Meyer in September 1982, but it was *the players of the BPO* who voted against her at the conclusion of her probation period by a vote of 73 to 4. *The orchestra* insisted the reason was that her tone did not blend with the other members of the section, but other observers, *including Karajan*, believed that the true reason was her gender. 
You may note that when Karajan was virtually principal conductor of the Philharmonia there were women players. 
I don't know what HvK's views on women players were, but he certainly didn't ban them from his orchestras as far as we know.


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## SiegendesLicht (Mar 4, 2012)

dieter said:


> Oi Weh, what a tedious waste of my time reading through all of that. The bottom line is that in not only so called Judeo Christian history plus probably in the history of cultures I know not that much about because I was born a so-called christian,* women are regarded as child bearers and slaves to their partners and children*.


And that is one more reason I have a chip on my shoulder against the modern feminism. The notion that caring for the most beloved and dear people in one's entire life is somehow slavery, while being a wage slave to some stranger (=boss) who will kick you out as soon as you do not bring enough profit is supposed to be liberating


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

DavidA said:


> I must confess your wild statements are a caricature of what really happened. Women are now now 'regarded as child bearers and slaves to their partners and children', at least where I live although I have been to parts of the world (non Judeo Christian cultures) where they certainly are. So please don't believe all you read.
> 
> Similarly your statement about Karajan's 'ban' on women in the BPO. The first woman was actually appointed, violinist Madeleine Carruzzo, by the BPO in 1982. There was a row at the appointment of another of the orchestra's first female members Sabine Meyer. Karajan hired Meyer in September 1982, but it was *the players of the BPO* who voted against her at the conclusion of her probation period by a vote of 73 to 4. *The orchestra* insisted the reason was that her tone did not blend with the other members of the section, but other observers, *including Karajan*, believed that the true reason was her gender.
> You may note that when Karajan was virtually principal conductor of the Philharmonia there were women players.
> I don't know what HvK's views on women players were, but he certainly didn't ban them from his orchestras as far as we know.


You are right about Karajan. As far as I am aware, he never had any problem with female players, and his support for Sabine Meyer is one of the things that led to the rift between Karajan and the BPO, culminating in his resignation in 1989.

On the topic of religion and women, though, which no doubt should be in a different thread, dieter is quite correct. Judaism, Christianity and Islam have all colluded in the subjugation of women. Admittedly, the Church of England, has now finally accepted female bishops, but it has been a long and contentious journey, and there are still many within the church who are fiercely opposed.


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## Guest (Mar 4, 2016)

SiegendesLicht said:


> I don't know. I heard many orchestras that included male and female players and sounded brilliant. However I do believe the management of the WPO knows more about how to run an orchestra or how to produce music of highest quality than you and I do. If they believed women were absolutely necessary for their orchestra, they would invite women. Whatever policy they pursue, they have a good reason for doing it.


Really? So you accept without question that the WPO knew what they were doing, yet you are sceptical of any evidence that their practices were discriminatory.

I fail to see that our inferior understanding of how to run an orchestra has anything to do with questioning their practices. I mean, I don't really know much about running the country, but I'm not going to stop asking how and why politicians do what they do.

But you're really just ducking the question about whether there is any valid _musical _justification for the argument that only males should play in the WPO. I don't believe I need to be an expert in how to run an orchestra to declare my position unequivocally that there is no justification and that no orchestra, either publicly or privately funded, should discriminate in its recruitment of players on any other ground than musical capability.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

SiegendesLicht said:


> I heard many orchestras that included male and female players and sounded brilliant. However I do believe the management of the WPO knows more about how to run an orchestra or how to produce music of highest quality than you and I do. If they believed women were absolutely necessary for their orchestra, they would invite women. Whatever policy they pursue, they have a good reason for doing it. I have the same sentiment for them that I have for the rest of the German-speaking world whenever it comes under fire from another Washington-invented ideology - feminism, multiculturalism, etc. And that sentiment is: "Just leave us alone!"


1. Recognizing that orchestras which include people besides German-speaking white men sound superb is no achievement. When did you first realize it?

2. The question is not whether women are "absolutely necessary" as orchestral musicians, but whether they are capable and whether it's right to exclude them. German-speaking white men are not "absolutely necessary" either.

3. Why are they right to pursue "any policy" they choose? Because they are German-speaking white men?

4. Discrimination against women and non-white people is not under fire from "ideologies." It is under fire from women _and_ men, non-white people _and_ white people, who want every human being to be able to live fully and freely as a human being, and who know (often from harsh experience) what unfairness and imbalances of power look like and what they do to degrade and endanger humanity.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

SiegendesLicht said:


> And that is one more reason I have a chip on my shoulder against the modern feminism. The notion that caring for the most beloved and dear people in one's entire life is somehow slavery, while being a wage slave to some stranger (=boss) who will kick you out as soon as you do not bring enough profit is supposed to be liberating


Women are slaves to their partners and children _*only **if they want to do something else with their lives but their society offers them no other option.*_

It's about _choice,_ not whether one occupation is better than another.

What you call "the modern feminism" is a caricature, and by focusing on it you do an injustice to the real issues facing women in societies around the world. Maybe it's easy for white girls who've grown up in Western societies where discrimination and oppression have greatly moderated to dismiss the situation of those not so privileged. If you let the cause of women's equality be co-opted by extreme views which would condemn _any_ choice women would make for their lives, including the raising of children, you will only perpetuate discrimination and fuel such overreactive views as you deplore.

But it appears that that's what you want, so that your German-speaking white men can preserve the purity of the Reich and define themselves righteously against the degenerate ranks of humanity as a whole. Talk about ideology!


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

GregMitchell said:


> On the topic of religion and women, though, which no doubt should be in a different thread, *dieter is quite correct*. Judaism, Christianity and Islam have all colluded in the subjugation of women. Admittedly, the Church of England, has now finally accepted female bishops, but it has been a long and contentious journey, and there are still many within the church who are fiercely opposed.


Quite incorrect about the founder of Christianity who certainly was a liberator of women and went totally against the social mores of his day. But as you say, another time, another place.


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## SiegendesLicht (Mar 4, 2012)

Woodduck said:


> Isn't this painfully obvious? Or are you and everyone you know living your dreams?


Actually that question got me thinking. I have a lot of dreams, big and small. Some I am working towards turning into reality, and some will probably never come true (like learning to play the pipe organ). But I cannot think of a single one that is specifically prevented from realization by those oppressive males.



Woodduck said:


> Women are slaves to their partners and children _*only **if they want to do something else with their lives but their society offers them no other option.*_
> 
> It's about _choice,_ not whether one occupation is better than another.


And yet throughout this very thread are scattered hints and remarks that a woman devoting herself to family rather than chasing after the CEO chair is limited, or a slave, or in other ways deficient. Seems, this is just the same old discrimination, but with an opposite sign. How about a novel idea: that a woman's or a man's worth does not depend on their position on the corporate ladder, and it is not their job that gives people their dignity, no matter what that job is.



> What you call "the modern feminism" is a caricature, and by focusing on it you do an injustice to the real issues facing women in societies around the world. Maybe it's easy for white girls who've grown up in Western societies where discrimination and oppression have greatly moderated to dismiss the situation of those not so privileged. If you let the cause of women's equality be co-opted by extreme views which would condemn any choice women would make for their lives, including the raising of children, you will only perpetuate discrimination and fuel such overreactive views as you deplore.


Modern feminism *is* a caricature. Do you remember that feminist musicologist who wrote about Beethoven's 9th Symphony as a description of rape? 

I grew up and spent most of my life in a country that your American Department of State calls "the last dictatorship in Europe". If anywhere discrimination against women should be expected, it is here. Most of my co-workers at most of my workplaces just happen to be men. Guess what? I've never experienced any sort of discrimination from them. Well, unless you would call opening doors and helping haul heavy things discrimination (some of the roaring feminists actually do).

You see, modern feminism is just a tool of political manipulation, after the motto "divide and conquer". If you can convince women that all their problems in life come from men, and vice versa, if you get the sexes to turn on each other, instead of standing together in mutual love and respect, they become all that easier to control. Multiculturalism is about the same thing, by the way, but this time it is about turning various ethnic groups on each other. And meanwhile the Nibelungs in their steel-and-glass towers are rubbing their hands with glee.


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## Guest (Mar 5, 2016)

SiegendesLicht said:


> Actually that question got me thinking. I have a lot of dreams, big and small. Some I am working towards turning into reality, and some will probably never come true (like learning to play the pipe organ). But I cannot think of a single one that is specifically prevented from realization by those oppressive males.
> 
> And yet throughout this very thread are scattered hints and remarks that a woman devoting herself to family rather than chasing after the CEO chair is limited, or a slave, or in other ways deficient. Seems, this is just the same old discrimination, but with an opposite sign. How about a novel idea: that a woman's or a man's worth does not depend on their position on the corporate ladder, and it is not their job that gives people their dignity, no matter what that job is.
> 
> ...


Seize on the specific, and ignore the general. You haven't experienced discrimination; therefore, its existence is a falsehood perpetrated (or perpetuated) by 'modern feminism'. One musicologist presents an idea you find absurd; therefore 'modern feminism' is absurd.

And you continue to ignore or misconstrue the point made umpteen times which is _not _that women who choose to be mothers and housewives should be criticised. It is that a society which has historically reduced a woman's opportunities to _only _being wives and mothers when they aspire to something else should be criticised. Nor is it just a matter of choosing between polar opposites - between the rat race and motherhood and apple pie.


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## SiegendesLicht (Mar 4, 2012)

Woodduck said:


> 1. Recognizing that orchestras which include people besides German-speaking white men sound superb is no achievement. When did you first realize it?
> 
> 2. The question is not whether women are "absolutely necessary" as orchestral musicians, but whether they are capable and whether it's right to exclude them. German-speaking white men are not "absolutely necessary" either.
> 
> ...


1. I don't remember. My very first opera recording was Tannhäuser performed by Georg Solti and the WPO. The first Ring I ever heard was also by the same performers. It is still my favourite.

2. I never advocated including German-speaking white men in every single orchestra in the world. Although our local orchestra in Minsk did invite a German conductor specifically to perform the Flying Dutchman. The list of performers of the Bach Collegium Japan also includes a few German names. Apparently they think it is a good idea.

3. I can give you at least two reasons. First: because they are not American and should not have to conform to every policy handed down from Washington DC and New York. The same is true for every other orchestra, not just the WPO. Second: because they are just that, an orchestra, and should be dedicated to one job only - making the best music they can, not to navigating political muddy waters. Again, this is true for every other orchestra.

4. It was probably like that in the past. Modern feminism is a roaring, raging caricature, nothing more.


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## Guest (Mar 5, 2016)

SiegendesLicht said:


> 2. I never advocated including German-speaking white men in every single orchestra in the world. Although our local orchestra in Minsk did invite a German conductor specifically to perform the Flying Dutchman. The list of performers of the Bach Collegium Japan also includes a few German names. Apparently they think it is a good idea.


Noone suggested you were so advocating. The point, as you yourself make, is that no particular colour or gender is _necessary_.



SiegendesLicht said:


> 3. I can give you at least two reasons. First: because they are not American and should not have to conform to every policy handed down from Washington DC and New York. The same is true for every other orchestra, not just the WPO. Second: because they are just that, an orchestra, and should be dedicated to one job only - making the best music they can, not to navigating political muddy waters. Again, this is true for every other orchestra.


So you're saying that an orchestra should be free from any of the considerations applying in many countries (not just the US or Germany or Austria); that an individual is entitled to equality of opportunity in employment. Why should an orchestra be exempt?


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## dieter (Feb 26, 2016)

DavidA said:


> I must confess your wild statements are a caricature of what really happened. Women are now now 'regarded as child bearers and slaves to their partners and children', at least where I live although I have been to parts of the world (non Judeo Christian cultures) where they certainly are. So please don't believe all you read.
> 
> Similarly your statement about Karajan's 'ban' on women in the BPO. The first woman was actually appointed, violinist Madeleine Carruzzo, by the BPO in 1982. There was a row at the appointment of another of the orchestra's first female members Sabine Meyer. Karajan hired Meyer in September 1982, but it was *the players of the BPO* who voted against her at the conclusion of her probation period by a vote of 73 to 4. *The orchestra* insisted the reason was that her tone did not blend with the other members of the section, but other observers, *including Karajan*, believed that the true reason was her gender.
> You may note that when Karajan was virtually principal conductor of the Philharmonia there were women players.
> I don't know what HvK's views on women players were, but he certainly didn't ban them from his orchestras as far as we know.


Please forgive my ignorance regarding Karajan. It came out of the fog associated with recollections to do with Sabine Meyer.


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