# Is "The Mikado" racist?



## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

From Seattle: Ms. Chan calls a new production of The Mikado "Asian Yellowface."

http://seattletimes.com/html/opinion/2024050056_mikadosharonpianchancolumn14xml.html

The producer responds, calling Ms. Chan's article "a flaming bag of dog poop."

https://www.pattersong.org/node/214

Nice to know people still care. Hope all this will help build up the box office!


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## waldvogel (Jul 10, 2011)

Under my government, people like Sharon Chan would surely not be missed...


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

KenOC said:


> From Seattle: Ms. Chan calls a new production of The Mikado "Asian Yellowface."
> 
> http://seattletimes.com/html/opinion/2024050056_mikadosharonpianchancolumn14xml.html
> 
> ...


I suppose when such time arrives that, in Seattle, a production of _The Mikado_ can be fully cast -- principals down to the least chorister -- solely by local folk of _pure_ Japanese ancestry who have trained in classical singing and are prepared to sing at such a professional level that _then,_ Ms. Chan will be happy 

However, if Ms. Chan's article had instead been a thread on TC, and if that director made the same comment on Ms. Chan's article, well, he could be looking at a temporary ban


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## brotagonist (Jul 11, 2013)

I'd like to know how whites are and have been portrayed in the media and arts of other cultures. Nobody talks about that.


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

PetrB said:


> However, if Ms. Chan's article had instead been a thread on TC, and if that director made the same comment on Ms. Chan's article, well, he could be looking at a temporary ban


Actually he would be looking at a first warning, no infraction points.

If he subsequently persisted in repeatedly insulting her, he would eventually accumulate 10 infraction points and then the system would ban him.


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## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

Presumably any producers of future productions of, say, Madame Butterfly and La Rossignol should be on Yellow Alert.


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## Sloe (May 9, 2014)

elgars ghost said:


> Presumably any producers of future productions of, say, Madame Butterfly and La Rossignol should be on Yellow Alert.


 I wonder if those that are screaming yellow-face realise that at the same time they are against Asian singers in European roles.


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## Taggart (Feb 14, 2013)

PetrB said:


> I suppose when such time arrives that, in Seattle, a production of _The Mikado_ can be fully cast -- principals down to the least chorister -- solely by local folk of _pure_ Japanese ancestry who have trained in classical singing and are prepared to sing at such a professional level that _then,_ Ms. Chan will be happy


I have no doubt that even if there was a production of The Chichibu Mikado in Seatle Ms Chan would find some complaint - probably along the lines that they were selling out to western culture much like the people of the Knightsbridge Village who helped with the original production of the Mikado. I am reminded of a comment by Shaw - "I learned long ago, never to wrestle with a pig. You get dirty, and besides, the pig likes it."


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

brotagonist said:


> I'd like to know how whites are and have been portrayed in the media and arts of other cultures. Nobody talks about that.


Too shameful a history. Rape, pillaging, affairs, men and women behaving badly in general


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

Taggart said:


> I have no doubt that even if there was a production of The Chichibu Mikado in Seatle Ms Chan would find some complaint - probably along the lines that they were selling out to western culture much like the people of the Knightsbridge Village who helped with the original production of the Mikado. I am reminded of a comment by Shaw - "I learned long ago, never to wrestle with a pig. You get dirty, and besides, the pig likes it."


it seems that traveled across the pond, or may have originated -- no matter. This is attributed perhaps to Mark Twain, as well as Robert Heinlein:

"Never try to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and it annoys the pig."


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Here's a pretty mess!


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

The idiotic Ms Chan takes us back to 1907 : In 1907, Japanese Prince Fushimi visited Britain. The Lord Chamberlain banned performances of “The Mikado” in London to avoid offending the Prince. The Prince was offended, all right–he wanted very much to see the show, and was very upset that he could not. The Daily Mail dispatched a native Japanese newspaper critic to a provincial performance, far from the Prince. Mr. K. Sugimura wrote: “I came to Sheffield expecting to discover real insults to my countrymen. I find bright music and much fun, but I could not find the insults.” 

“The Mikado” is not about any real Japan, it’s a satire on 19th-Century British society, dressed up in a fictionalized exotic locale to “gild the philosophic pill,” as Gilbert put it in another of his operettas. 
Hence Jonathan Miller's famous production could set the work in an English tea shop and seem perfectly appropriate.


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## Couac Addict (Oct 16, 2013)

Does this mean that the heat is off Mickey Rooney in Breakfast at Tiffany's?


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## deggial (Jan 20, 2013)

I don't know about racist but certainly annoying. I couldn't sit through it.


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## drpraetorus (Aug 9, 2012)

I remember being in Los Angeles when the LA opera did Turandot. There were complaints from some in the Asian community that Ping Pang and Pong were offensive stereotype names. I guess it could been said that anything that makes fun off or is not exactly, minutely correct about any culture is racist. That is a term we through around far too easily and far too often in America. \

BUT! I gotta say that I am tired of the general representation in the media and entertainment of the Irish genial, superstitious, quaint sots. I mean, the Mexicans were able to get rid of the Fritto Bandito but we still have the Lucky Charms Leprechaun? 

I am glad to see in movies that American Indian roles are going more to actual American Indians rather than to a name actor in brownface. also the use of actual indian languages. And then, along comes Jonny Depp as Tonto. WTF? (What the Fudge. I don't use the other F word).

Maybe we will have to have an official genealogist attached to every bit of entertainment to make sure the actor is of the correct lineage to play what ever the part is. Just imagine, a racial purity office like the old moral censors office. Whod'a thunk it?


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## Ingélou (Feb 10, 2013)

When I was at university, I went regularly to Oriental Society events and remember watching 'The Opium War', in which specialist Chinese actors portray wicked Victorian Brits in a rather stereotyped way. I found it hugely enjoyable. There's a thin line between satire and caricature, between clever observations about national traits, and stereotyping. If the intentions are good and there's nothing overtly offensive, I say, give the benefit of the doubt.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

The Mikado was written during a different time. If written today, the Mikado wouldn't pass the censors, robbing the civilized world of some of the wittiest most virtuosic lyrics and most wonderful music ever composed.

Enough of all the PC crap already!


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## quack (Oct 13, 2011)

When there is an article like this appears i'm intrigued. A fresh perspective on something that I might not have considered before, a different point of view and interesting parallels with things like blackface.

Then i'm usually disgusted by the people who line up to dismiss the point of view and call the person who proposes it 'idiotic' or worse. Society has a long history of dismissing any minority voice that disagrees with comfortable status quo, a happy, wilful ignorance of anything that doesn't fit your narrow cultural view. The racial content of a comic opera might be a rather minor concern but I don't see it as separate. There is a continuum between having to put up with racist names 30 years ago, racist treatment 80 years ago, racist physical abuse 120 years ago.

Political correctness has made it unacceptable to call people the n-word, to chemically castrate them along with the poofters, it's made slitty eye jokes unacceptable, cripple is no longer a popular word (dumb is still fine for stupid because people who can't talk are obviously stupid), not ok to say the short-changed have been *****, women can wear pants! If political correctness spoils your enjoyment of some entertainment you are perhaps too passively consuming then I would say it is a small price to pay for the good it has done.


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## Loge (Oct 30, 2014)

LOL, I read that article at the time. The Cultural Marxist Asian who wrote that, has never seen the Mikado. It is a satire about Victorian England but using a Japanese backdrop. It is no more offensive than Ali Baba and the 40 Thieves at the panto, should be to Persians.

Back in the day some rabid Japanese nationalist journalist went to see the Mikado for offense. He came out enjoying the operetta and thought the music wonderful. At least he got the joke rather than the Maoist journalist.

This light opera is just a funny and more surreal when set in an English seaside resort in the 1920s!






An English operetta set in Japan, but set in England. Now that is Topsy Turvydom?

I believe Mz Chan is disrespecting other peoples' Culture.


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## Sloe (May 9, 2014)

I wonder how the opera _The case book of Sherlock Holmes_ by Kazuko Hara is like.


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## Albert7 (Nov 16, 2014)

I am not a huge fan of the opera honestly but it's probably racist by any means.


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## anmhe (Feb 10, 2015)

I'd say that G&S were more guilty of cultural ignorance than flat-out racism. They made a fantasy world based on a place they had never seen, and that fantasy works for a satire of Victorian England. I'll grant that I am relieved that the N word has been expunged from the libretto, though. I'm not going to justify that ever.


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## Don Fatale (Aug 31, 2009)

I'm happy to see that this classic ENO production of the 80's has made it on to YouTube.

This was from the days where ENO had a great roster of singers including those here: Susan Bullock, Felicity Palmer, Bonaventura Bottone, Richard Van Allen, and especially the vivacious Lesley Garrett.

It was fun to see who had made ever-updating list. (See around 24:00). Makes me wonder who'd be on the list in today's production. :lol:


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## bigshot (Nov 22, 2011)

If the Mikado is racist, the Girl of the Golden West is sexist.


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## Albert7 (Nov 16, 2014)

bigshot said:


> If the Mikado is racist, the Girl of the Golden West is sexist.


Actually I tend to think that all of Puccini's operas are sexist.

http://www.nytimes.com/1985/09/05/arts/critic-s-notebook-sexism-in-opera-don-t-blame-critic.html


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## Badinerie (May 3, 2008)

> There probably is a way to produce a version of "The Mikado" that entertains and makes sense in a contemporary society where difference is valued. The Seattle Gilbert & Sullivan Society could, for instance, partner with the Asian-American theater group Pork Filled Players to reinterpret the opera


Brought to you by...










PS.


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## Belowpar (Jan 14, 2015)

quack said:


> When there is an article like this appears i'm intrigued. A fresh perspective on something that I might not have considered before, a different point of view and interesting parallels with things like blackface.
> 
> Then i'm usually disgusted by the people who line up to dismiss the point of view and call the person who proposes it 'idiotic' or worse. Society has a long history of dismissing any minority voice that disagrees with comfortable status quo, a happy, wilful ignorance of anything that doesn't fit your narrow cultural view. The racial content of a comic opera might be a rather minor concern but I don't see it as separate. There is a continuum between having to put up with racist names 30 years ago, racist treatment 80 years ago, racist physical abuse 120 years ago.
> 
> Political correctness has made it unacceptable to call people the n-word, to chemically castrate them along with the poofters, it's made slitty eye jokes unacceptable, cripple is no longer a popular word (dumb is still fine for stupid because people who can't talk are obviously stupid), not ok to say the short-changed have been *****, women can wear pants! If political correctness spoils your enjoyment of some entertainment you are perhaps too passively consuming then I would say it is a small price to pay for the good it has done.


Thank you for making a very good point. I too despair when the new group think is to suggest that all the modern worlds evils can be explained by rolling one's eyes and muttering "Political Correctness/Health and Safety gone mad". We live in a better world because society is more understanding and yes dissenting voices are more easily heard. For that we have to thank those who had the courage to stand up and oppose the conventional thinking of their day.

However you make light of the many faults of this article which I find mostly wrong headed and inaccurate. Not only did she judge the production before she could have seen it she misunderstands the original intention of Gilberts Libretto. It was a satire on the vogue for all things Japanese in Victorian England, which focussed on stereotypes and how easily society had been taken in by them.

Her understanding of History is not the same as mine. "The opera is a fossil from an era when America was as homogeneous as milk... and immigrants did not fuel the economy". Really?

Today is the 130th anniversary of the first production. I hope to see many more.


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## Albert7 (Nov 16, 2014)

The point of whether or not The Mikado is racist or not does not affect my decision to listen to it or not.

Wagner is a genius but I can overlook some facets of the man for his music.


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## Sloe (May 9, 2014)

It is more respectful to the Japanese than the Merry Widow is to the Pontevedrians.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

bigshot said:


> If the Mikado is racist, the Girl of the Golden West is sexist.


Which sex? The woman shoots like Annie Oakley, rescues the man from a gang of men about to lynch him, and rides him off into the sunset. Bravo Minnie!


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

...........................Duplicate post.


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## MAuer (Feb 6, 2011)

Sloe said:


> It is more respectful to the Japanese than the Merry Widow is to the Pontevedrians.


It's a shame Gilbert didn't take the same approach as Lehár's librettists, Viktor Léon and Leo Stein, and invent some fictitious country as the setting for _The Mikado_'s events. (Which of course would also have meant a different title.) While the operetta satirizes Victorian England, I can understand if some Japanese people might feel a little irritated.

Dealing with some of the literature and dramas (to include music dramas) of earlier eras, and their references to social customs that were commonplace then but are downright offensive now, will always pose problems. In certain cases. I agree with making changes, as in tweaking the lyrics to Stephen Foster's "_My Old Kentucky Home_" to remove words that are offensive to African-Americans. On the other hand, I wouldn't want to see editing of _Huckleberry Finn_ or _Tom Sawyer_, but I'm also not sure that these books are suitable reading material for children too young to have a clear understanding of social conditions at the time Twain wrote the novels. And then there's the blatantly racist and sexist text in parts of Mozart's _Die Zauberflöte_. The supertitle translations used by my local opera company were not literal here and skirted the offensive language. But I haven't heard anyone suggesting that this opera should no longer be performed because of such content.


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## Albert7 (Nov 16, 2014)

MAuer said:


> It's a shame Gilbert didn't take the same approach as Lehár's librettists, Viktor Léon and Leo Stein, and invent some fictitious country as the setting for _The Mikado_'s events. (Which of course would also have meant a different title.) While the operetta satirizes Victorian England, I can understand if some Japanese people might feel a little irritated.
> 
> Dealing with some of the literature and dramas (to include music dramas) of earlier eras, and their references to social customs that were commonplace then but are downright offensive now, will always pose problems. In certain cases. I agree with making changes, as in tweaking the lyrics to Stephen Foster's "_My Old Kentucky Home_" to remove words that are offensive to African-Americans. On the other hand, I wouldn't want to see editing of _Huckleberry Finn_ or _Tom Sawyer_, but I'm also not sure that these books are suitable reading material for children too young to have a clear understanding of social conditions at the time Twain wrote the novels. And then there's the blatantly racist and sexist text in parts of Mozart's _Die Zauberflöte_. The supertitle translations used by my local opera company were not literal here and skirted the offensive language. But I haven't heard anyone suggesting that this opera should no longer be performed because of such content.


I agree with you here. It's not a matter of being political correct but understanding the social context of the piece.

I feel bad that I'm not a bigger fan of Gilbert and Sullivan... I enjoy their wit but never got into their compositional style.


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## Polyphemus (Nov 2, 2011)

Hello people wake up the world is, was and always will be racist. Read your history. In this new twenty first century century we have added a new wrinkle, the scourge of political correctness, which is another phrase for hypocrisy. As we speak some where in the world someone is being abused, based on race, creed, sexual orientation or political expediency. This abuse ranges from deprivation to slaughter.
No society is free of this and while we all decry it we are also all guilty by association.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

MAuer said:


> Dealing with some of the literature and dramas (to include music dramas) of earlier eras, and their references to social customs that were commonplace then but are downright offensive now, will always pose problems. *In certain cases. I agree with making changes, as in tweaking the lyrics to Stephen Foster's "My Old Kentucky Home" to remove words that are offensive to African-Americans. * On the other hand, I wouldn't want to see editing of _Huckleberry Finn_ or _Tom Sawyer_, but *I'm also not sure that these books are suitable reading material for children* too young to have a clear understanding of social conditions at the time Twain wrote the novels.


I have to disagree. Don't whitewash history by bowdlerizing works of art. We need to know where we've come from. Children are smarter than you think. Adults, on the other hand...


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## Albert7 (Nov 16, 2014)

The question is... are Gilbert and Sullivan racist? What do the history books tell us?

And that could be a question we may never know the answer to.


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## Figleaf (Jun 10, 2014)

Woodduck said:


> I have to disagree. Don't whitewash history by bowdlerizing works of art. We need to know where we've come from. Children are smarter than you think. Adults, on the other hand...


I agree with what you say, but the fact that you've bolded MAuer's remarks on 'My Old Kentucky Home' suggests that we understand those remarks differently. 'My Old Kentucky Home' is IMO an excellent candidate for bowdlerisation. In the first place, it's a three minute pop song, and changing one word of it is unlikely to efface anyone's memory of the original. In the second place, it isn't really a 'c**n song' at all: it's Irish in character and inspiration, and its thin coating of blackface vanishes as soon as you take away the epithet. _'The day goes by like a shadow o'er the heart/ With sorrow where all was delight./ The time has come when our friends will have to part/ Then, my old Kentucky home, good night'_ could, mutatis mutandis, be lifted straight out of Moore's Irish Melodies. Not one of the best bits of Moore perhaps, but the melancholic tone and the preoccupation with loss are the same, and the themes of hardship and emigration are familiar from such songs as 'Bantry Bay' (not sure who wrote that) and would obviously have been part of the lived experience of many first generation Americans of Foster's time. So the song is not really about the African American experience, or white people's patronising views of it; it's fundamentally more authentic and thus more universal than that, which is why the bowdlerised version works. Heck, even Al Jolson- hardly a champion of political correctness- omitted the epithet. The only problem with the cleaned up version is that the substitution of 'everyone' for 'd*rkies' is a bit pedestrian: 'It's summer and everyone's gay' is weaker than 'It's summer and [epithet] are gay'- but it's a small price to pay.

Al Jolson: 




Not all songs containing outdated and regrettable racist epithets can be bowdlerised as successfully as 'My Old Kentucky Home'. I once spent some time trying to fix 'Lily of Laguna', without success. (I was an unusual child.)  It's fairly easy to take out 'n***er' and 'c**n' and substitute whatever fits the metre and doesn't sound silly: '_It's the same old tale of a palpitating *lover* every time_', etc- but the guy in the song is still a simpleton and not really one of us, so making it racially neutral but leaving the rest of the words intact just creates a non sequitur. You would have to throw out the whole lyric and make it a song about something completely different.This dilemma is the one faced by would-be bowdlerisers of Twain or G&S: you can take out the words that cause particular offence, but the underlying attitudes remain. Purging the works of outdated values would mean going back to the drawing board and creating something substantially new, but without the originality of a new work or fidelity to the spirit of the old one: a pointless exercise. So let's apply a bit of judicious moral relativism to the art works of the past, and leave those works which are unignorably, irredeemably racist on the shelf. But for goodness' sake let's keep the word 'd*rkies' out of 'My Old Kentucky Home' and make it a beautiful home for everyone instead. 

'Lily of Laguna':


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Figleaf said:


> I agree with what you say, but the fact that you've bolded MAuer's remarks on 'My Old Kentucky Home' suggests that we understand those remarks differently. 'My Old Kentucky Home' is IMO an excellent candidate for bowdlerisation. In the first place, it's a three minute pop song, and changing one word of it is unlikely to efface anyone's memory of the original. In the second place, it isn't really a 'c**n song' at all: it's Irish in character and inspiration, and its thin coating of blackface vanishes as soon as you take away the epithet. _'The day goes by like a shadow o'er the heart/ With sorrow where all was delight./ The time has come when our friends will have to part/ Then, my old Kentucky home, good night'_ could, mutatis mutandis, be lifted straight out of Moore's Irish Melodies. Not one of the best bits of Moore perhaps, but the melancholic tone and the preoccupation with loss are the same, and the themes of hardship and emigration are familiar from such songs as 'Bantry Bay' (not sure who wrote that) and would obviously have been part of the lived experience of many first generation Americans of Foster's time. So the song is not really about the African American experience, or white people's patronising views of it; it's fundamentally more authentic and thus more universal than that, which is why the bowdlerised version works. Heck, even Al Jolson- hardly a champion of political correctness- omitted the epithet. The only problem with the cleaned up version is that the substitution of 'everyone' for 'd*rkies' is a bit pedestrian: 'It's summer and everyone's gay' is weaker than 'It's summer and [epithet] are gay'- but it's a small price to pay.
> 
> Al Jolson:
> 
> ...


A very eloquent argument, Figleaf. Still, I disagree with it.

First, I reject the collective "we." "We" are not in a position to change the words of a song. "You" or "I," on the other hand, may do so at will, so long as the composer or his estate are not in a position to object to it; should you or I or anyone be disturbed by a word or phrase, we can omit it when performing the song, or refuse to listen to the song being performed. But the song is what it is, courtesy of the composer, who lived and wrote in and for his world in his time.

Second, and more important, I look upon these remnants of the past as bits and pieces of history. When I hear the words of "My Old Kentucky Home," a time and place is conjured up which I'm quite capable of evaluating and having my own feelings about. And if it's Amelita Galli-Curci singing the song on an old 78rpm shellac, I am plunged into two different moments out of the past simultaneously. This feeling of owning the past is treasurable, even as I realize that "we don't think or live that way any more." Indeed, that realization may be part of the reason for treasuring the feeling.

If anyone should write a song today seriously referring to other people as "*******," those people could justifiably feel offended and we might justifiably feel offended on their behalf, assuming the word is not so archaic that few would have any feelings about it at all. But no one is doing that or proposing it. Stephen Foster is no longer capable of offensive acts. He and his attitudes and beliefs are part of the history of humanity. We as adults must look history squarely in the eye and learn - and choose - where in its unfolding we belong; this is true for you and me, but no less true for the descendants of those "*******" and for the descendants of any other people history has treated badly (and there are many, many such groups). People who want to be protected from their past - cultural or personal - and from even hearing the words in which that past expressed itself, will not become the adults they need to be in the present.

If I sing "My Old Kentucky Home" I will assume that my listeners are such adults, who wish to know and accept the sorrows of the past in order to attain the joy of having transcended them.


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## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

Woodduck said:


> A very eloquent argument, Figleaf. Still, I disagree with it.
> 
> First, I reject the collective "we." "We" are not in a position to change the words of a song. "You" or "I," on the other hand, may do so at will, so long as the composer or his estate are not in a position to object to it; should you or I or anyone be disturbed by a word or phrase, we can omit it when performing the song, or refuse to listen to the song being performed. But the song is what it is, courtesy of the composer, who lived and wrote in and for his world in his time.
> 
> ...


Political correctness is just Stalinism with a human face.

"Who controls the past controls the future. Who controls the present controls the past."

- George Orwell, _1984_


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## Albert7 (Nov 16, 2014)

Marschallin Blair said:


> Political correctness is just Stalinism with a human face.
> 
> "Who controls the past controls the future. Who controls the present controls the past."
> 
> - George Orwell, _1984_


The strategic adversary is fascism... the fascism in us all, in our heads and in our everyday behavior, the fascism that causes us to love power, to desire the very thing that dominates and exploits us.

Michel Foucault


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## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

Albert7 said:


> The strategic adversary is fascism... the fascism in us all, in our heads and in our everyday behavior, the fascism that causes us to love power, to desire the very thing that dominates and exploits us.
> 
> Michel Foucault


That's a 'fascist-nating' quote, considering that Foucault shilled for the Islamo-fascist regime of the Ayatollah Khomeini.


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## MAuer (Feb 6, 2011)

Perhaps "_My Old Kentucky Home_" was a bad choice, since it has been chosen as Kentucky's official state song and is sung prior to the start of the Kentucky Derby. I think that, under these conditions, the offensive word had to go. Perhaps the whole notion of a state song is anachronistic, but if a piece of music is going to be designated as such, it can't have lyrics that are an affront to some citizens. Maybe the folks in Kentucky should have chosen something else, but they didn't.

As for children and Mark Twain's novels, I agree that children are smart. I think they can also be incredibly cruel and malicious, which is why I believe school kids need to be of an age to understand the books' social context before they are given an assignment to read them. Black children don't need to have the "n-word" flung at them by thoughtless or cruel classmates.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

MAuer said:


> Perhaps "_My Old Kentucky Home_" was a bad choice, since it has been chosen as Kentucky's official state song and is sung prior to the start of the Kentucky Derby. I think that, under these conditions, the offensive word had to go. Perhaps the whole notion of a state song is anachronistic, but if a piece of music is going to be designated as such, it can't have lyrics that are an affront to some citizens. Maybe the folks in Kentucky should have chosen something else, but they didn't.
> 
> As for children and Mark Twain's novels, I agree that children are smart. I think they can also be incredibly cruel and malicious, which is why I believe school kids need to be of an age to understand the books' social context before they are given an assignment to read them. Black children don't need to have the "n-word" flung at them by thoughtless or cruel classmates.


Agreed. If we must have "state songs," they obviously can't contain racist language. I would leave Stephen Foster alone and choose a different song (or write one).

Some things are not suitable for small children. But, again, we shouldn't fiddle with Mark Twain.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

The strategic adversary is fascism... the fascism in us all, in our heads and in our everyday behavior, the fascism that causes us to love power, to desire the very thing that dominates and exploits us.

Michel Foucault



Marschallin Blair said:


> That's a 'fascist-nating' quote, considering that Foucault shilled for the Islamo-fascist regime of the Ayatollah Khomeini.




I was curious about this, googled "Foucault Khomeini," and immediately found myself caught in this characteristically tangled web of postmodern obscurantism:

http://www.h-net.org/reviews/showrev.php?id=12437

When people refuse to speak clearly you can bet they have good reason for it. I don't want to divert the thread, but a look at the language of fascism-pretending-to-oppose-fascism is not irrelevant to the psychology of censorship and political correctness.


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## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

Woodduck said:


> Agreed. If we must have "state songs," they obviously can't contain racist language. I would leave Stephen Foster alone and choose a different song (or write one).
> 
> Some things are not suitable for small children. But, again, we shouldn't fiddle with Mark Twain.


State songs, racist songs- 'collectivist' songs- whether or not people want to sing such foolish nonsense is up to them.

Kids shouldn't be required to read racist literature or to say the Pledge of Allegiance.


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## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

Woodduck said:


> I was curious about this, googled "Foucault Khomeini," and immediately found myself caught in this characteristically tangled web of postmodern obscurantism:
> 
> http://www.h-net.org/reviews/showrev.php?id=12437
> 
> When people refuse to speak clearly you can bet they have good reason for it. I don't want to divert the thread, but a look at the language of fascism-pretending-to-oppose-fascism is not irrelevant to the psychology of censorship and political correctness.


Foucault is just 'Marcuse-light.'

The leader of the American New Left, Herbert Marcuse of the Frankfurt School of Marxism, said famously in his essay "Repressive Tolerance" that "Liberating tolerance, then, would mean intolerance against movements from the Right and toleration of movements from the Left."

This is indistinguishable from what Mussolini's Black Shirt Fascists or Hitler's Brown Shirt S.A. preached against their political enemies.


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

Marschallin Blair said:


> Foucault is just 'Marcuse-light.'
> 
> The leader of the American New Left, Herbert Marcuse of the Frankfurt School of Marxism, said famously in his essay "Repressive Tolerance" that "Liberating tolerance, then, would mean intolerance against movements from the Right and toleration of movements from the Left."
> 
> This is indistinguishable from what Mussolini's Black Shirt Fascists or Hitler's Brown Shirt S.A. preached against their political enemies.


I will stick with quantum mechanics and the 11 dimensional Grand Theory of Everything - they are easier to understand :lol:


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

MAuer said:


> Perhaps "_My Old Kentucky Home_" was a bad choice, since it has been chosen as Kentucky's official state song and is sung prior to the start of the Kentucky Derby. I think that, under these conditions, the offensive word had to go. Perhaps the whole notion of a state song is anachronistic, but if a piece of music is going to be designated as such, it can't have lyrics that are an affront to some citizens. Maybe the folks in Kentucky should have chosen something else, but they didn't.
> 
> As for children and Mark Twain's novels, I agree that children are smart. I think they can also be incredibly cruel and malicious, which is why I believe school kids need to be of an age to understand the books' social context before they are given an assignment to read them. Black children don't need to have the "n-word" flung at them by thoughtless or cruel classmates.


This is just by way of an aside. Apparently The U.S. Navy considered using Village People's _In The Navy_ for a recruitment video until the song's other connotations were pointed out to them.


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

Marschallin Blair said:


> Foucault is just 'Marcuse-light.'
> 
> The leader of the American New Left, Herbert Marcuse of the Frankfurt School of Marxism, said famously in his essay "Repressive Tolerance" that "Liberating tolerance, then, would mean intolerance against movements from the Right and toleration of movements from the Left."


My years as an undergraduate at UCSD overlapped the start of Marcuse's presence and influence on campus. It was certainly an unsettling time and for us in the sciences, which was a majority of the student population during the first few years, it was more than a little confusing and has certainly had something to do with my view of politics/philosophy.


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## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

Becca said:


> I will stick with quantum mechanics and the 11 dimensional Grand Theory of Everything - they are easier to understand :lol:


Foucault and Marcuse both give a green light to 'fascism' that they _do _like- what's hard to understand about that?


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## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

Becca said:


> My years as an undergraduate at UCSD overlapped the start of Marcuse's presence and influence on campus. It was certainly an unsettling time and for us in the sciences, which was a majority of the student population during the first few years, it was more than a little confusing and has certainly had something to do with my view of politics/philosophy.


I never found any of Marcuse's _oeuvre_ particularly obscurantist (despite his Frankfurt School provenance)- and his most famous 'legacy' books _One Dimensional Man_, and _Eros and Civilization_, as well as the seminal essay "Repressive Tolerance"- candidly reveal exactly what the man stood for.

He rails against authoritarianism while being an arch-authoritarian himself.


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## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

GregMitchell said:


> This is just by way of an aside. Apparently The U.S. Navy considered using Village People's _In The Navy_ for a recruitment video until the song's other connotations were pointed out to them.


_"We want you! We want you! . . . We want you as a new recruit!"_

Ha. Ha. Ha. Ha. Ha.

Oh my _God _is that hilarious.

I never knew that about the Navy's recruiting efforts.


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

Marschallin Blair said:


> I never found any of Marcuse's _oeuvre_ particularly obscurantist (despite his Frankfurt School provenance)- and his most famous 'legacy' books _One Dimensional Man_, and _Eros and Civilization_, as well as the seminal essay "Repressive Tolerance"- candidly reveal exactly what the man stood for.
> 
> He rails against authoritarianism while being an arch-authoritarian himself.




He must have been a post-modernist :lol:


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## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

Becca said:


> He must have been a post-modernist :lol:


Propriety forbids, but I'd just call him the 'f'-word 'light,' to wit, a 'fascist.'


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## Guest (Mar 8, 2015)

Yes it is racist.

But then context is everything. It was written in an age when it was mainstream "OK" to be racist.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Just to add that the racism is updated to include "Australians of all kinds" in Eric Idle's Little List in Miller's ENO production!


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## Larkenfield (Jun 5, 2017)

KenOC said:


> From Seattle: Ms. Chan calls a new production of The Mikado "Asian Yellowface."
> 
> http://seattletimes.com/html/opinion/2024050056_mikadosharonpianchancolumn14xml.html
> 
> ...


I doubt if the Asian names could be changed and the satirical humor of _The Mikado_ preserved. G & S satirized _everyone_, not just Asians, from British white-faced noblemen to pirates. No race, gender or country escaped their diabolically outrageous wit. While I can understand Ms. Chan's point of view, I doubt if she understands the irrepressible satire of G & S and how fun it is to not take oneself so seriously... and really, to drag in the internment camps of WW2 into a discussion of _The Mikado_, as unfortunate as they were, is I believe stretching her argument to the breaking point, as if G & S could have ever anticipated such an eventuality. I hope they left_ The Mikado_ alone in Seattle.

How about Puccini's _Madame Butterfly_? Maybe it should also be on the list for a major cultural overhaul because of its passive Japanese-female stereotypes:



> The "Madame Butterfly" story and myth lies at the heart of Western perceptions of Japanese women as passive, selfless, and dedicated completely to their husbands and families. The original story, written by an American in 1898 and made into a play in 1900, was transformed into operatic form by Giacomo Puccini in 1904. Since then, the continued world-wide success of the opera has elevated the story of the teenage, tragic heroine into a cultural archetype and stereotype, an icon and myth of the Japanese woman as the ideal of loving self-sacrificing, devoted wife to a Western husband. [unquote]
> 
> Elsewhere, there's_ Carmen_ where the heroine smokes and everyone knows that smoking is bad for you. Perhaps her cigarettes should be replaced with breath mints so as not to encourage smoking by the general public. Or perhaps most of the people who go to operas or operettas are not quite as ignorant or prejudiced as that. In the meantime, I believe that just about everyone is being parodied, made fun of, and stereotyped in the operettas of G &S and if one single change is made it will stand out like a sore thumb and ruin them.


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## Brahmsianhorn (Feb 17, 2017)

What we have right now is good old fashioned McCarthyism. It is making a mockery of the civil rights movement. Rather than responding to legitimate forms of discrimination, people now make it their duty to HUNT for any hint of racism, no matter how unintended or harmless. The irony is that the ability to laugh at ourselves is exactly the antidote to racial hatred. These militants are causing more division than they are healing. I think they do it to enhance their own personal feelings of importance and moral superiority.


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## Sloe (May 9, 2014)

Larkenfield said:


> How about Puccini's _Madame Butterfly_? Maybe it should also be on the list for a major cultural overhaul because of its passive Japanese-female stereotypes:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

elgars ghost said:


> Presumably any producers of future productions of, say, Madame Butterfly and La Rossignol should be on Yellow Alert.


SWnO

No Nilsson, Dimitrova, Turner as Turandot. We would also have had to do without Price in any role except Aida.


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## howlingfantods (Jul 27, 2015)

elgars ghost said:


> Presumably any producers of future productions of, say, Madame Butterfly and La Rossignol should be on Yellow Alert.


I have no idea if the Mikado is racist--I have no interest in operetta and I've never watched any G&S. I'm willing to believe it isn't, but it doesn't exactly strengthen the argument when the white-people-defenders on this community make racist jokes in the pursuit of defending a work for not being racist.


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## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

howlingfantods said:


> I have no idea if the Mikado is racist--I have no interest in operetta and I've never watched any G&S. I'm willing to believe it isn't, but it doesn't exactly strengthen the argument when the white-people-defenders on this community make racist jokes in the pursuit of defending a work for not being racist.


I won't apologise for what I thought was a fairly mild rejoinder (especially one which is now well over four years old) but I respect your right to call me out on it - just as I respect your right to report me privately to the mods if you think it crossed a line. As I've received no infraction penalty or even had the post deleted perhaps some think it less offensive than it might appear.


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## howlingfantods (Jul 27, 2015)

elgars ghost said:


> I won't apologise for what I thought was a fairly mild rejoinder (especially one which is now well over four years old) but I respect your right to call me out on it - just as I respect your right to report me privately to the mods if you think it crossed a line. As I've received no infraction penalty or even had the post deleted perhaps some think it less offensive than it might appear.


I don't snitch.

I will add, "a mild rejoinder" is how one might try to minimize an indecorously overheated comment. Using the phrase to try to characterize your racist joke as only a little bit racist is a move I haven't seen before.


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