# The Most “American” Piece



## mahlernerd (Jan 19, 2020)

Many composers such as Copland, Bernstein, and Ives has a huge influence on American Music, but what piece, by any American composer, feels the most “American” to you?


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

Gershwin - Rhapsody In Blue
Ives - Central Park In The Dark
Ferde Grofe - Grand Canyon Suite


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## Brahmsianhorn (Feb 17, 2017)

Rhapsody in Blue


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## Joe B (Aug 10, 2017)

Gershwin's "An American in Paris" should be a contender. It exudes 20's American to me.


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## sstucky (Apr 4, 2020)

Copland’s and Schuman’s Third Symphonies.


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## Coach G (Apr 22, 2020)

mahlernerd said:


> Many composers such as Copland, Bernstein, and Ives has a huge influence on American Music, but what piece, by any American composer, feels the most "American" to you?


I'll recommend Ive's Symphony #4.

It would have to be something by Ives, because Ives music goes in a completely different direction than anything out of Europe. Other American composers created "Americana", works that incorporate American folk-music, hymns, jazz elements, or American subject matter, into a framework that was still basically European.


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## Joachim Raff (Jan 31, 2020)

Sousa and his marches.


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## Ulfilas (Mar 5, 2020)

William Schuman's New England Triptych, Copland's Appalachian Spring, and, why not, Kendrick Lamar's DAMN.


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## tdc (Jan 17, 2011)

Some things that come to mind for me:

- Ives symphonies 2, 3 and 4
- Copland symphony 3
- Barber Adagio for Strings

Ravel's Piano Concerto in G also has a rather American feel to me, it was inspired by a trip Ravel took to the United States and some of the music (in particular jazz) that he heard while there.


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## Simplicissimus (Feb 3, 2020)

starthrower said:


> Gershwin - Rhapsody In Blue
> Ives - Central Park In The Dark
> Ferde Grofe - Grand Canyon Suite


Bingo!

I also agree with Coach G that Ives is probably in first place here. To me, his Orchestral Set No. 1 "Three Places in New England" is quintessential, though Central Park in the Dark and pretty much anything else except maybe Symphony No. 1 is right up there. I own 5 versions of Three Places in New England on CD! That's more versions than I own of any work by any other composer.

Gershwin's Rhapsody in Blue. Of course. And I'd like to put in a plug for the underappreciated Second Rhapsody for Orchestra with Piano, the version arranged by Grofe.

And Ferde Grofe himself. Yes, Grand Canyon Suite, but Mississippi Suite is one of my favorites, too (a minority opinion, I know).

I've already overstepped the bounds of the OP by a lot, so I will rein in my exuberance at this point.


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## Allegro Con Brio (Jan 3, 2020)

Ives's 2nd symphony. It's pleasant and folksy enough, integrating all sorts of well-known song tunes, to be a frequent favorite of "pops" concerts, but it features perhaps my favorite of all symphonic endings; never fails to get a hearty guffaw out of me. I think Joshua Weilerstein referred to it as "the greatest middle finger in music" on his podcast about Ives.


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## Ekim the Insubordinate (May 24, 2015)

Barber: Knoxville Summer of 1915


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## consuono (Mar 27, 2020)

Copland's Lincoln Portrait, Appalachian Spring or Rodeo


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## Ekim the Insubordinate (May 24, 2015)

Joplin - any of his rags


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## consuono (Mar 27, 2020)

Ekim the Insubordinate said:


> Joplin - any of his rags


+1 for Joplin too...he was the real thing. It's tough to narrow it down.


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

Tough question, when you really think about it...

Copland - Appalachian Spring
Gershwin - American in Paris
" - Rhapsody in Blue


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## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

Dudley Buck: Festival Overture on the American National Air






or one of my favorite movie soundtracks:


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## Rogerx (Apr 27, 2018)

Barber: Knoxville Summer of 1915
Barber ; Vanessa


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## SONNET CLV (May 31, 2014)

*The Most "American" Piece*



mahlernerd said:


> Many composers such as Copland, Bernstein, and Ives has a huge influence on American Music, but what piece, by any American composer, feels the most "American" to you?


Indeed, Copland (Third Symphony), Bernstein (music for _West Side Story_), and Ives (Fourth Symphony, etc.) can legitimately claim the title of American composer who wrote a piece that "feels American". But with a caution.

The sheer diversity of the United States precludes any single piece from summing up the American experience, or the American _feeling_. In terms of abstraction, the Copland Third fits the bill for "the great American symphony". It sort of looks at America through a hazy lens, the only focus coming with the entrance of the great fanfare which we all now associate with America even though it is music or a more universal nature, written for common men everywhere, I would suspect. _Rodeo_ and _Billy the Kid _are probably more focused American pieces by Copland, but they are limited in their descriptive scope. Again, the U.S. (or, America) is vast and diverse.

Bernstein's _West Side Story_ prompts an appreciation of our multi-culturalism and also spans the range from pop music through jazz to classical stylings all in the same piece. But it is also quite urban in feel and doesn't reach out to the interior or western lands as well as does some of Copland, such as the two works mentioned in the paragraph above as well as _Appalachian Spring_. Strangely, urban Copland seems rather rare (perhaps the early "modern" styled music, the generally unfamiliar stuff, fits that bill), which is strange, too, when one considers that Copland was an urban-based composer.

Ives has long been a favorite of mine, and I tend to think of his music as the most American of American music, and it seems to reach through to the urban culture as well as to the rural countryside in a unique way. Still, I cannot listen to Ives without an overbearing sense of nostalgia. Ives music captures the sound of an America I saw inklings of in my youth, but which today seems totally out of fashion. Something like William Schuman's Eighth Symphony strikes me moreso as a descriptive piece for a more modern-day American than anything by Ives, but I hardly feel comfortable assigning the piece to a list of "American feeling" music.

Gershwin's great _Rhapsody in Blue_ is a valid consideration; it brings in the multi-cultural aspects, but its urban jazz stylings do not so well relate to the mid-west or far-west, the ranges, prairies, and deserts of our land. Again, the diversity of the country frustrates a single work to speak with multiple vision.

I feel one could legitimately nominate the Dvorak Ninth Symphony, the _From the New World_ Symphony, as representative of this country's music. Its borrowings of what seem Native American and African-American tunes comingled with Czech phrasings give us a multicultural sense in the best way. The second movement, with its beautiful elegiac theme, often heard in its "Going Home" guise as a piping tune played as an honorary at funerals (civil and military), keeps the music fresh. And like the best classical music, the Ninth Symphony has a universality to it that covers the range of this land, though it is, arguably, much more rural than urban. No taxi cab horns in this piece. And though Dvorak was not an American composer per se, he did immigrate to this country and lived here long enough to pick up a sense of the musical heritage.

Still … I cannot narrow down to a single piece that captures more than any other piece the "American feeling" in all its diversity and color. Sousa's "Stars and Stripes Forever" seems to me totally American, but I know others will argue it is more European in its makeup, and I certainly don't feel comfortable ascribing to it many multicultural attributes.

I guess I'll stand with our National Anthem, "The Star-Spangled Banner", as I offer a nomination. But even this leaves me uneasy. Not only is the tune of this song from British roots, it was the official song of the Anacreontic Society, an 18th-century gentlemen's club of amateur musicians in London. Does music of an English "gentlemen's club" really speak of America? Then again, there's that Italian feller … what's his name, who wrote opera? Oh yeah, Puccini, and his opera _Madam Butterfly_. Why is it I am always reminded of _Madame Butterfly_ when I hear the Anthem? Well, at least there's an argument there for multi-culturism: French novel (_Madame Chrysanthème_ by Pierre Loti), Italian composer, Asian characters (including a 15-year-old sometime bride), and a slime-ball U.S. naval officer named Pinkerton....

Nah! Forget that nomination.

Maybe I'll just go with Charles Wuorinen's _Time's Encomium _. It's written for Synthesized & Processed Synthesized Sound, which sounds rather diverse and multi-cultural to me. And, too, it _did_ win a Pulitzer Prize! What can be more American than that?


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## MatthewWeflen (Jan 24, 2019)

Copland's Appalachian Spring. Not even a contest.

Of course there are plenty more. But none that do it better.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)




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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

While many worthy works have been mentioned they seem to suggest that USA might be a more minor musical force than it has in fact been. I feel it ought to be a jazz, probably bebop, piece. Or something by America's greatest classical composer, Elliott Carter.


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## Guest002 (Feb 19, 2020)

I hesitate to mention it, for a couple of reasons:






Specifically, John Powell's _Rhapsodie Nègre_.

It's by a white man who was 'culturally appropriating' what he would have called 'negro music'.
A white man who happened to be a white supremacist, and believed fiercely in segregation and that 'one drop' of African blood in you meant you should be treated as a negro. And he's borrowing 'negro music' to show how animalistic and degenerate it was.

So all round, John Powell makes Richard Wagner look like a vicar at a children's tea party.

But, it's rather a good piece of work, just the same. 
Though it and its creator stinks of all sorts of nastiness, in its totality, it's perhaps a good reflection of the _total_ American experience.

But yes, _Appalachian Spring_ would be what I'd turn to for a more "pleasant" (dare I say anodyne?) American experience.


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## Jacck (Dec 24, 2017)

Randall Thompson - Symphony No 2 (especially the slow movement)
Florence Price - Symphony No. 1 in E minor
Florence Price - Mississippi Suite
William Levi Dawson - Negro Folk Symphony
Gershwin - Porgy and Bess


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## apricissimus (May 15, 2013)

Hard to disagree with the choices of Copland, Gershwin, Grofe, Ives, and Sousa.

For a long time, I had no idea that Tchaikovsky's 1812 Overture was _not_ American since it was so closely associated (for me, and I'm sure many others) with 4th of July celebrations. Can a Russian composer be considered to have written a "most American" piece?

And do people agree that there's nothing particularly American-sounding about Dvořák's New World Symphony?


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## Olias (Nov 18, 2010)

Fanfare for the Common Man - Copland


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## Olias (Nov 18, 2010)

apricissimus said:


> For a long time, I had no idea that Tchaikovsky's 1812 Overture was _not_ American since it was so closely associated (for me, and I'm sure many others) with 4th of July celebrations. Can a Russian composer be considered to have written a "most American" piece?


Yeah, that's not your fault though. As a music teacher in America, I can say it's our fault for being culturally ignorant and not giving a flip about historical context. Some Americans are legitimately cultured, but the vast majority have no freaking clue. People put 1812 in 4th of July shows because it's loud and things go boom. I absolutely take WAY more pleasure than I should in letting white racist christian fundamentalist ******** in my area know that the piece is about Russia's victory over the French and was composed by a homosexual. It makes their MAGA hats fly right off their heads.


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## Ekim the Insubordinate (May 24, 2015)

Olias said:


> Yeah, that's not your fault though. As a music teacher in America, I can say it's our fault for being culturally ignorant and not giving a flip about historical context. Some Americans are legitimately cultured, but the vast majority have no freaking clue. People put 1812 in 4th of July shows because it's loud and things go boom. I absolutely take WAY more pleasure than I should in letting white racist christian fundamentalist ******** in my area know that the piece is about Russia's victory over the French and was composed by a homosexual. It makes their MAGA hats fly right off their heads.


Ah, America, home of the "white racist christian fundamentalist ********" and their totally arrogant white liberal progressive woke superior betters.


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## Olias (Nov 18, 2010)

Ekim the Insubordinate said:


> Ah, America, home of the "white racist christian fundamentalist ********" and their totally arrogant white liberal progressive woke superior betters.


You forgot kale-eating, Prius-driving, and godless communist apologist.


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## larold (Jul 20, 2017)

Herbert *Pan American*

Copland *Fanfare for the Common Man*, *Rodeo*, *Billy The Kid*

Grofe *Mississippi Suite*, *Grand Canyon Suite*

Ives *Symphony No. 3 "Camp Meeting"*

Thomson *Symphony On a Hymn Tune*

Hanson *Symphony No. 2 "Romantic"*

Gershwin *Porgy and Bess*, *Rhapsody in Blue*

Adams *Doctor Atomi*c, *Nixon In China*

Hermann scores for *Psycho,* *Mysterious Island*

Williams score for *Star Wars*

Heggie-Scheer *Moby Dick*


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## larold (Jul 20, 2017)

_Ah, America, home of the "white racist christian fundamentalist ********" and their totally arrogant white liberal progressive woke superior betters._

There may be history that is unflattering, just like in England, France, Russia and Germany, but if you look at 20th and 21st century classical music you'll see American composers are among the best and wrote some of the greatest music. This is particularly true for the 21st century classical music and opera.


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## Guest (Apr 30, 2020)

As a non-American, I'd say that none of the music sounds to me intrinsically American, but there is much that has developed extra-musical associations (such as marching band music, Fanfare for the Common Man, Dvorak's 9th...)


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

American fundamentalist ******** whose ancestors come from those most artistically and culturally saturated areas of the world such as the European continent and Great Britain. Home to the world's greatest human atrocities.


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## Guest002 (Feb 19, 2020)

starthrower said:


> American fundamentalist ******** whose ancestors come from those most artistically and culturally saturated areas of the world such as the European continent and Great Britain. Home to the world's greatest human atrocities.


Well... I dunno about that. Naziism, yup: I'll grant you that one. Stalin's purges, gulags, fair enough. Stalin's liquidation of the Kulaks... yeah, I suppose that was European continent too. But Mao did for about 14 million in the famine of 1959-61, and that's definitely not European. And Pol Pot is surely worth a mention with around 1.5 million to his, er, credit. Also not European. The Hutus did quite a number on the Tutsi, too: around a million or so.

And depending on one's perspective: there were about 50 million native Americans in 1600 (estimate, obviously). In the census of 2010, there were only 2.9 million who self-identified in that way. So that's about 48 million 'disappeared' over the course of 400 years. I mean that was mostly disease, neglect and nothing as deliberate as concentration camps, of course.. just let's not mention Andrew Jackson and the 1830 Indian Removal Act, shall we?!

Anyway: I'd have to say that Africa, Asia and the Americas were right up there with anything parts of Europe were capable of. Frankly, the only place that hasn't committed atrocities is the Antarctic. You can always trust a penguin to be nice. 

Not wanting to pick a fight, but there's a lot of blame to go around a lot of places; and just trotting out Great Britain and the European continent as the scene of the 'world's greatest atrocities' is to be a little short-sighted, I think.

Can we get back to the music now?


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

I didn't say they were the only guilty places in the world. You can get back to music now.


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## larold (Jul 20, 2017)

_As a non-American, I'd say that none of the music sounds to me intrinsically American._

Perhaps you don't know what "intrinsically American" music sounds like? Not all American classical music is blustery band music.

Never heard the Pan American by Herbert? It includes patriotic American tunes including the Star Spangled Banner.

Or Grofe's Grand Canyon Suite? it is so western American the trail music was heard in cigarette advertising and as theme for American television programs.

Or Thomson's Symphony On a Hymn Tune, suites to The River, The Plow That Broke the Plain or Louisiana Story? These scores incorporate local and church music as classical music just as Bartok incorporated local Hungarian music into his scores.

Ives Third Symphony? The so-called "Camp Meeting" symphony uses hymns Charles Wesley wrote in America including O For A Thousand Tongues to Sing.

Gershwin's Rhapsody In Blues merges on 20th century American jazz rhythms into sonata format and his opera Porgy and Bess uses Negro spiritual tunes.

Aaron Copland's song Long Time Ago was manufactured from a Negro spiritual they sang during the Civil War (1861-65) as they longed for their African homelands.

Americanism abounds in 20th and 21st century American classical music if you where to listen and what to hear.


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## Joe B (Aug 10, 2017)

Intrinsically American music?


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

MacLeod said:


> As a non-American, I'd say that none of the music sounds to me intrinsically American, but there is much that has developed extra-musical associations (such as marching band music, Fanfare for the Common Man, Dvorak's 9th...)


You don't think American classical works heavily influenced by jazz sound intrinsically American?


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

mbhaub said:


> Dudley Buck: Festival Overture on the American National Air


Buck is a good piece...so is Gould "Declaration" - either of these would make excellent National Holiday [July 4th!!] pieces - certainly more _a propos_ than Tchaikovsky "1812" - which has absolutely nothing whatever to do with America!!


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

Duke Ellington -

"New World A-Comin"
"Black, Brown, Beige"
"Harlem" Suite"


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## Ekim the Insubordinate (May 24, 2015)

I really feel like the most American piece does have to have some aspect of jazz, or proto-jazz, as that is really the most uniquely American of music. All the other classical works here are great suggestions, but they really are more incorporating motifs that have uniquely American feels to them - the Grand Canyon, revivals, etc. But they incorporate them into formats that are not unique to America. As American as Sousa's marches are, marches are not unique to America - that certain ones would only be heard in America doesn't necessarily make them sound American if someone heard them out of context. But jazz sounds completely different. Put it up against any other style and it stands out. 

Sure, it would be nice if we had something like a concerto style, or a symphonic style, or any other traditional classical music style that originated here and is uniquely American - but we were late to the game. Beethoven was composing while America was in its infancy. Bach died decades before the "shot heard round the world" was fired.

But jazz is all American.


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## larold (Jul 20, 2017)

_But jazz is all American_

So is church music and minimalism -- Reich 18 -- and those forms have found their way into classical music far more than jazz and have continued to do so in score from the most famous Americans, John Williams, Jerry Goldsmith, John Adams and Phillip Glass.

Lest we forget John Cage was American also. I dont quite know how to characterize his sound but it too is American.


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## Ekim the Insubordinate (May 24, 2015)

larold said:


> _But jazz is all American_
> 
> So is church music and minimalism -- Reich 18 -- and those forms have found their way into classical music far more than jazz.
> 
> John Cage was American also.


Then 4'33"? I'm open to putting that one forward! But it must be performed in front of a purely American audience with American performers - then it will be nothing but American!


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## isorhythm (Jan 2, 2015)

I can't argue with many of the suggestions, especially Copland and Ives, but will go a different direction and make an argument for Riley's _In C_, a more radical break from the European tradition. It draws from the the ethos, but not musical material, of jazz, avoiding awkward self-conscious fusion, as well as from 60s California psychedelia. As American as classical music gets.


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## Duncan (Feb 8, 2019)

Just add the word "North" to "American" and you have your answer - "O Canada"...


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## mahlernerd (Jan 19, 2020)

_Or Grofe's Grand Canyon Suite? it is so western American the trail music was heard in cigarette advertising and as theme for American television programs._

Did you know it was also featured in _A Christmas Story_? I was watching it and thought I recognized it.


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## larold (Jul 20, 2017)

_And do people agree that there's nothing particularly American-sounding about Dvořák's New World Symphony?_

A section of it is based on the American tune "Swing Low Sweet Chariot," Dvoark was in America when he composed the score, he felt the American spirit and drive reflected in the opening and closing movements, and he had written his "American" string quartet the same year, 1893, while director of the National Conservatory of Music of America in New York.

So I would say no I do not agree with your assertion. The "New World" symphony is about America, written by a composer in love with America, written by a composer that lived in America, uses American musical themes and reflects American musical roots, and was written coincidental with an onslaught of departing Europeans coming to America.

For the composer himself it was a stark break from the influence of Brahms (Symphony No.7) and other European composers. That's why it's called the "New World" symphony.


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## Joachim Raff (Jan 31, 2020)

Bill Conti - "Gonna Fly Now". Cannot get more American than that


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## Guest (Apr 30, 2020)

larold said:


> _As a non-American, I'd say that none of the music sounds to me intrinsically American._
> 
> Perhaps you don't know what "intrinsically American" music sounds like? Not all American classical music is blustery band music.




Frankly, I couldn't be ar$ed to list all the compositions that are either by Americans or about America.



starthrower said:


> You don't think American classical works heavily influenced by jazz sound intrinsically American?


Tell me what it means to be "intrinsically American"?


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## larold (Jul 20, 2017)

belonging naturally; essentially American.


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## Fabulin (Jun 10, 2019)

Only one....


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## Guest (Apr 30, 2020)

larold said:


> belonging naturally; essentially American.


No, I mean musically. I know what intrinsic means.


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## apricissimus (May 15, 2013)

larold said:


> A section of it is based on the American tune "Swing Low Sweet Chariot," Dvoark was in America when he composed the score, he felt the American spirit and drive reflected in the opening and closing movements, and he had written his "American" string quartet the same year, 1893, while director of the National Conservatory of Music of America in New York.
> 
> So I would say no I do not agree with your assertion. The "New World" symphony is about America, written by a composer in love with America, written by a composer that lived in America, uses American musical themes and reflects American musical roots, and was written coincidental with an onslaught of departing Europeans coming to America.
> 
> For the composer himself it was a stark break from the influence of Brahms (Symphony No.7) and other European composers. That's why it's called the "New World" symphony.


He may have been inspired by America, but I just don't hear it. If I didn't know all those historical facts about its composition, I would not have picked up on it. If his intent was to reflect America musically in some way, I think he missed the mark. Though many non-Americans have been successful with American musical idioms, so it's certainly possible to do it well even if you are an outsider.


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## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

larold said:


> _And do people agree that there's nothing particularly American-sounding about Dvořák's New World Symphony?_
> 
> A section of it is based on the American tune "Swing Low Sweet Chariot," Dvoark was in America when he composed the score, he felt the American spirit and drive reflected in the opening and closing movements, and he had written his "American" string quartet the same year, 1893, while director of the National Conservatory of Music of America in New York.
> 
> ...


Dvořák would disagree with you: he wrote to conductor Oskar Nedbal in 1900 when asked about it: "…but the nonsense that I made use of Indian and American motives…is a lie. Whatever I have written in America, England or elsewhere is and always remains Bohemian music." According to the composer the title means nothing more than "Impressions and Greetings from the New World." In the New York Herald a few days before the premier, he wrote, "I have not actually used any of the Red Indian melodies. I have simply written original themes embodying the peculiarities of the Indian music, and, using these themes as subjects, have developed them with all the resources of modern rhythms, counterpoint, and orchestral color."

American music writer Henry Krehbiel wrote, "There is no instance in which Negro themes are quoted in Dr. Dvořák's music. I fancy that a fragment of 'Swing Low, Sweet Chariot' was consciously, or unconsciously, quoted in the first movement of the symphony…That Dvořák was deeply interested in the songs of the black slaves of America I know from repeated conversations with him."


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## JAS (Mar 6, 2013)

Ekim the Insubordinate said:


> I really feel like the most American piece does have to have some aspect of jazz, or proto-jazz, as that is really the most uniquely American of music. . . .


Would you count ragtime? Is Joplin's Treemonisha American? A lot of the western song style that so influenced Copland comes from Irish origins, and probably also other song traditions. But America has always been about hybrids and reusing or making something new out of something old.


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## consuono (Mar 27, 2020)

Olias said:


> Yeah, that's not your fault though. As a music teacher in America, I can say it's our fault for being culturally ignorant and not giving a flip about historical context. Some Americans are legitimately cultured, but the vast majority have no freaking clue. People put 1812 in 4th of July shows because it's loud and things go boom. I absolutely take WAY more pleasure than I should in letting white racist christian fundamentalist ******** in my area know that the piece is about Russia's victory over the French and was composed by a homosexual. It makes their MAGA hats fly right off their heads.


Yeah, well, to be fair it's probably not the "fundamentalist ********" who originally programmed the 1812 Overture for July 4 festivities, but most likely the (most likely) left-leaning conductors of the community orchestras who thought up such a cultural faux pas. They're so...gauche and pretentious, dontchathink?


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## senza sordino (Oct 20, 2013)

As a non American, the music I most associate with an American sound are minimalism pieces and those pieces influenced by jazz. 

Rhapsody in Blue 
Music for 18 Musicians
Appalachian Spring
Glassworks


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## apricissimus (May 15, 2013)

consuono said:


> Yeah, well, to be fair it's probably not the "fundamentalist ********" who originally programmed the 1812 Overture for July 4 festivities, but most likely the (most likely) left-leaning conductors of the community orchestras who thought up such a cultural faux pas. They're so...gauche and pretentious, dontchathink?


It was Arthur Fiedler of the Boston Pops who started the trend. For what it's worth.


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## Simplicissimus (Feb 3, 2020)

As for what is “intrinsically American” in classical music, I’m thinking about how we tend to associate geographical features with some “national” music: the stark vastness of Sibelius (Finland), die schöne blaue Donau of J. Strauß (Austria), the Moldau of Smetana (Czechia), the steppes of Central Asia of Borodin, the green English countryside of Butterworth and company, and others. Other than Grofe’s Grand Canyon Suite, I cannot think of any American music that is evocative of landscapes either by imitative sounds or by conventional association, though I’m sure that North American forests, rivers, lakes, mountains, prairies, and so forth have inspired composers. Rather, as others have said, jazz, gospel, spirituals, Appalachian folk songs, and Latino themes seem to flag compositions as U.S.-American.


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## Guest (Apr 30, 2020)

seitzpf said:


> the stark vastness of Sibelius (Finland),


Don't get me started. It's all too easy to read associations in that have been put there by other people. I mean, I've never been to the 'vastness' of Finland, but I've been told often enough that that's what's "in" the music, so it must be there...right?


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## HenryPenfold (Apr 29, 2018)

Dvorak 9

While discovering indigenous folk songs, Antonin asked the natives what the country was originally called before the Europeans came, "Ours" came the reply.


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## Jacck (Dec 24, 2017)

seitzpf said:


> As for what is "intrinsically American" in classical music, I'm thinking about how we tend to associate geographical features with some "national" music: the stark vastness of Sibelius (Finland), die schöne blaue Donau of J. Strauß (Austria), the Moldau of Smetana (Czechia), the steppes of Central Asia of Borodin, the green English countryside of Butterworth and company, and others. Other than Grofe's Grand Canyon Suite, I cannot think of any American music that is evocative of landscapes either by imitative sounds or by conventional association, though I'm sure that North American forests, rivers, lakes, mountains, prairies, and so forth have inspired composers. Rather, as others have said, jazz, gospel, spirituals, Appalachian folk songs, and Latino themes seem to flag compositions as U.S.-American.


Some American music is evocative, for example here




Though my stereotype of American music likely comes from western movies, which depict the prairies etc.
Price is actually the American Dvořák. I don't know why she is neglected. Likely because she was a black woman.
or this here




sounds actually like a typical American folk song. That is certainly not European music, but very American to my ears.


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## Simplicissimus (Feb 3, 2020)

Jacck said:


> Some American music is evocative, for example here
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I agree that Florence Price is a very interesting composer and that her work is distinctly American. I think we can see Price as a Black American composer of the early 20th Century along with William Grant Still and Samuel Coleridge-Taylor, and also as member of the American realist composers including Amy Beach, George Whitefiled Chadwick, Arthur Foote, and several others. None of these composers is very well known, but I am glad that their work is getting played more now than ever before. I'm especially interested in Price because of her connection to my home town (Chicago). Coincidentally, I was going to attend a Chicago Symphony Orchestra concert this week (canceled, of course), where Maestro Muti was going to conduct Price's Symphony No. 3.


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## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

Jacck said:


> Price is actually the American Dvořák. I don't know why she is neglected. Likely because she was a black woman.


I can offer several reasons she was neglected:
1) She had bad timing. She was writing tonal music with real melodies at a time when that was frowned upon.
2) Being a woman didn't help - the Amy Beach symphony was widely played up until the mid 20th then fell out of favor.
3) African American composers did have a struggle for sure. And so did black conductors, pianists, singers....
4) She was an American - when every orchestra was run by European music directors, our native born composers were too often overlooked. This hasn't changed much.
5) She wasn't really that outstanding.

I eagerly went to one of the first performances of her First Symphony two seasons back. Boy, was I disappointed. It was pleasant enough, but never exciting. There was a notable absence of tension and electricity. The colorful scherzo just odd. The first movement started out promising enough, but the whole thing just went down hill. No masterpiece, for sure. William Dawson and William Grant Still were much more accomplished. I do like the Mississippi Suite somewhat better. But her story is tragic - the near loss of her music forever is a sad commentary on our values. I am pleased that her music is being recorded.


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## Simplicissimus (Feb 3, 2020)

MacLeod said:


> Don't get me started. It's all too easy to read associations in that have been put there by other people. I mean, I've never been to the 'vastness' of Finland, but I've been told often enough that that's what's "in" the music, so it must be there...right?


Yes, I agree that they are cliches. Once when I visited a national park in Finland, I found "Finlandia" running through my mind. Seeing the Moldau River for the first time, I found myself humming the Moldau part of Ma Vlast. And of course, An der schoenen blauen Donau was an Ohrwurm as I sipped and dined in Wien. Learned associations. Or mostly so. The music doesn't clash with the physical experience of the places, anyway. Some of the Grand Canyon Suite does remind me of the Grand Canyon, of course by learned association but the imitative sounds like the clop-clop of donkey hoofs are consistent with what I experienced there.


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## HenryPenfold (Apr 29, 2018)

................


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## HenryPenfold (Apr 29, 2018)

seitzpf said:


> I cannot think of any American music that is evocative of landscapes either by imitative sounds or by conventional association


Messiaen, Des Canyons? Just sayin ......


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## Jacck (Dec 24, 2017)

seitzpf said:


> Yes, I agree that they are cliches. Once when I visited a national park in Finland, I found "Finlandia" running through my mind. Seeing the Moldau River for the first time, I found myself humming the Moldau part of Ma Vlast. And of course, An der schoenen blauen Donau was an Ohrwurm as I sipped and dined in Wien. Learned associations. Or mostly so. The music doesn't clash with the physical experience of the places, anyway. Some of the Grand Canyon Suite does remind me of the Grand Canyon, of course by learned association but the imitative sounds like the clop-clop of donkey hoofs are consistent with what I experienced there.


or the Alpensymphonie (Strauss) or In the Tatra Mountains (Novák) or Night on Mt. Triglav (Rimsky-Korsakov). I actually spend a night on Mount Triglav (there is a cottage there to spend a night before climbing the summit) and frankly doubt that Rimsky-Korsakov was even there


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## consuono (Mar 27, 2020)

MacLeod said:


> Frankly, I couldn't be ar$ed to list all the compositions that are either by Americans or about America.
> 
> Tell me what it means to be "intrinsically American"?


I don't think any "art music" is intrinsically any nationality. Everything is bits and pieces from all over and from various eras. It can be given a sort of national flavor, maybe.


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

seitzpf said:


> ..... I'm especially interested in Price because of her connection to my home town (Chicago). Coincidentally, I was going to attend a Chicago Symphony Orchestra concert this week (canceled, of course), where Maestro Muti was going to conduct Price's Symphony No. 3.


Same here!! I was going to hear that concert, along with the Berlioz Sym Fant from the previous series...canxed by coronavirus....crap, my trip last year was canxed because the orchestra was on strike...


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## KRoad (Jun 1, 2012)

Copland's "cowboy " ballets.


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## Torkelburger (Jan 14, 2014)

mahlernerd said:


> Many composers such as Copland, Bernstein, and Ives has a huge influence on American Music, but what piece, by any American composer, feels the most "American" to you?


While I love those composer's music very much, "American" music, in the sense that a piece can "sound American" or "feel American", is a gimmick and superficial and supports the idea of conformity. Those composer's music has merits beyond "sounding American". Anyone who supports the idea is buying into an illusion.

The definition of "American Music" is this: music written by an American. That's it and nothing else.


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## larold (Jul 20, 2017)

_American music writer Henry Krehbiel wrote, "There is no instance in which Negro themes are quoted in Dr. Dvořák's music. I fancy that a fragment of 'Swing Low, Sweet Chariot' was consciously, or unconsciously, quoted in the first movement of the symphony…That Dvořák was deeply interested in the songs of the black slaves of America I know from repeated conversations with him."_

And further contradictions.


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

Morton Gould - "American Salute"


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## Torkelburger (Jan 14, 2014)

Roger Sessions' Sixth Symphony is *no less* American than any piece mentioned so far.


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## apricissimus (May 15, 2013)

Torkelburger said:


> Roger Sessions' Sixth Symphony is *no less* American than any piece mentioned so far.


I think what makes something American is if a lot of people think it's particularly American. So surely Copland, Gershwin, et al., are more "American" than most. It's pretty telling that those are names that come immediately to mind, isn't it?


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## Kjetil Heggelund (Jan 4, 2016)

Maybe something by Ives, he always sounds like New York traffic


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## Torkelburger (Jan 14, 2014)

> I think what makes something American is if a lot of people think it's particularly American.


No, that is fallacious.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum



> So surely Copland, Gershwin, et al., are more "American" than most. It's pretty telling that those are names that come immediately to mind, isn't it?


If they all write the same cliches and those cliches are considered American, then yeah, but personally, I think their popularity as "American" is conditioned, appeals to cliches, and was pressured to conformity.


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## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

Torkelburger said:


> While I love those composer's music very much, "American" music, in the sense that a piece can "sound American" or "feel American", is a gimmick and superficial and supports the idea of conformity. Those composer's music has merits beyond "sounding American". Anyone who supports the idea is buying into an illusion.
> 
> The definition of "American Music" is this: music written by an American. That's it and nothing else.


Some great American composers: Rachmaninoff, Stravinsky, Korngold, Schoenberg...all naturalized citizens.


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## Torkelburger (Jan 14, 2014)

mbhaub said:


> Some great American composers: Rachmaninoff, Stravinsky, Korngold, Schoenberg...all naturalized citizens.


Good thing I didn't say born in America.


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## apricissimus (May 15, 2013)

Torkelburger said:


> No, that is fallacious.
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum
> 
> If they all write the same cliches and those cliches are considered American, then yeah, but personally, I think their popularity as "American" is conditioned, appeals to cliches, and was pressured to conformity.


I'm not arguing from popularity (to use a less fancy phrase). It's that what sounds "American" (whatever that means) can only be based on what people tend to think American music sounds like. How else could you define American-sounding music? If there is such a thing, it doesn't come out of the ground or whatever. It only exists because a community (listeners, composers, critics) have judged it so. That's not the same thing as "argumentum ad populum".


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## Coach G (Apr 22, 2020)

Could anyone besides a German Lutheran compose the music that Bach wrote? Could Tchaikovsky, Mussorgsky or Shostakovich sound less Russian even if they tried? 

Europeans such as Ravel, Shostakovich and Stravinsky incorporated jazz. Delius painted musical portraits of America's natural landscape with "Florida Suite" and "Appalachia". Puccini "Girl of the Golden West" and Britten's Paul Bunyan" used an American setting; and Hindemith came close to "Americana" with "Where Lilacs Last in the Dooryard Bloom'd); but is it "American"?

While Barber and Hovhaness didn't even try to sound "American"; Copland's "American" sounding works only comprise a certain phase of his career and while those works have come to represent Copland's place in the repertoire; and Copland didn't always choose to compose "American" as his before and after styles were abstract. Even so, does that make Barber, Hovhaness, or Copland any less "American"?

Ives finds a sincere "American" voice because no European composer could imitate with sincerity Ives snippets of hymns and folk-songs being played against one another off key and with ear-splitting harmony. Likewise, no European could compose Gershwin's "Rhapsody in Blue" and capture the Tin-Pan Alley, Broadway, New York City element with sincerity. And no European could get away with Leonard Bernstein's blending of Broadway, jazz, as well as, Bernstein's own Jewish/American musical heritage within a classical framework. 

Then there's Cowell and Cage. It's not a big jump from Ives' idea of two marching bands playing different songs in different keys, and John Cage's ideas on "indeterminacy" where 20 radios are playing random stations at the same time. Or does Cage represent a different kind of American aesthetic; the rugged individualist, going his own way, not caring what anyone else thinks?

You be the judge.


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## pianozach (May 21, 2018)

I find it fascinating that, for the most part, no consensus has been reached.

"America" is a diverse land, both geographically and ethnically. Our religious makeup is all over the place - Buddhists, Jews, and Christians of a dozen different denominations (Catholics, Lutherans, Methodists, Baptists, snake-handlers, Mormons, tongue-speakers, Jehovah's Witnesses, Seventh Day Adventists, Unitarians, Religious Scientists, Quakers, and Shakers).

We're a melting pot (or maybe it's more like a salad bowl) of colors and nationalities.

We have mountains, canyons, geysers, volcanos, mighty rivers, great lakes, deserts, tundra, great plains, hurricanes, tornadoes, snowstorms, windstorms.

We have indigenous peoples, country music, farmers, stock brokers, punk rockers, jazz artists, Broadway, Hollywood, gazebos, guns, hippies (beads, bells, incense, crash pads), hitchhikers, homeless camps, cowboys, Starbucks, Nashville, New Orleans, Las Vegas, and Area 51.

How could any one piece, or any one composer, ever encapsulate, in one work, ALL that we are?

ALL of the pieces mentioned give us just a slice of what America is.

And any piece that DID attempt to include it all would be ridiculed. Can you even imagine a work that included themes and styles of Native American music, ragtime, big band, the expansive strokes of Dvorak, the folk elements of Copland, the ethnic rhythms of West Side Story, the schmaltz of Broadway, the marching orchestrations of Sousa, gospel, soul, and surf music all rolled into one? *It would be a monstrosity*, like the automobile designed by Homer Simpson: a Frankenstein called "The Homer" with tail fins, bubble domes, shag carpeting, multiple horns, an engine that will make people think "the world is coming to an end", gigantic cup holders.

This is why *YOU KNOW MY NAME, LOOK UP THE NUMBER* was never a hit, even though The Beatles loaded it up with a half dozen genres.

You don't put all 7 courses on one plate. You don't play country songs using a death metal singer.

.

.

Ok, I'm done now . . . .


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## Ethereality (Apr 6, 2019)

I agree it's an unanswerable question the way it's phrased. But if the question is "What work sounds the most distinctly American, ie. most difficult to confuse as something else" then I'm afraid you're looking at the wrong genre of music. Try jazz for a start.


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## jegreenwood (Dec 25, 2015)

pianozach said:


> I find it fascinating that, for the most part, no consensus has been reached.
> 
> "America" is a diverse land, both geographically and ethnically. Our religious makeup is all over the place - Buddhists, Jews, and Christians of a dozen different denominations (Catholics, Lutherans, Methodists, Baptists, snake-handlers, Mormons, tongue-speakers, Jehovah's Witnesses, Seventh Day Adventists, Unitarians, Religious Scientists, Quakers, and Shakers).
> 
> ...


This album - not really classifiable - comes close.

















Yeah - I know it's not an album, not a work, but it may be the only way to achieve what you describe.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

Olias said:


> You forgot kale-eating, Prius-driving, and godless communist apologist.


NPR-listening, dog walking, yogurt-swilling...


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

MacLeod said:


> No, I mean musically. I know what intrinsic means.


That's misleading. You said


MacLeod said:


> Tell me what it means to be "intrinsically American"?


 and he answered you:


larold said:


> belonging naturally; essentially American.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

apricissimus said:


> And do people agree that there's nothing particularly American-sounding about Dvořák's New World Symphony?


Yes, I agree with that. I never heard anything "American" about it, or native American either.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

When Frank Zappa heard Varese's _Deserts,_ he thought it was about the city he was residing in, Lancaster, California, on the edge of the desert. It could just as easily been describing West Texas. It's nice to have a "sinister-sounding" alternative representation of America, which is in many respects a sinister, dangerous place.


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

Fučík - Entrance of the Gladiators


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## larold (Jul 20, 2017)

_I think what makes something American is if a lot of people think it's particularly American._

How is that perception any different than any other national form of music?

Brahms is German because people think he's German.

Elgar is English because people think it sound particularly English.


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## apricissimus (May 15, 2013)

larold said:


> _I think what makes something American is if a lot of people think it's particularly American._
> 
> How is that perception any different than any other national form of music?


It's not any different.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

America's most popular and recognizable legacy is not going to be in "classical" music by Copland, Ives, or anybody else.

_Star Wars! 
The Raiders of the Lost Ark!_

That's the stuff Germans and the French recognize as "American."

_The Star Trek Theme, Bonanza, The Rifleman, I Love Lucy, The Perry Mason Theme, Mannix....

_For the Vietnamese, it's "...from the halls of Montezuma, to the shores of Tripoli..."


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

Nicki Minaj - _My Anaconda Don't, 2014_


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

Couchie said:


> Nicki Minaj - _My Anaconda Don't, 2014_


That "Anaconda" sounds intriguing, I'll have to look that one up.

And see? This is how Canadians perceive Americans.


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## pianozach (May 21, 2018)

There is one song that came to mind.

*God Bless America*, sung by Kate Smith.
Words and music by Irving Berlin © Copyright 1938

_While the storm clouds gather far across the sea, 
Let us swear allegiance to a land that's free, 
Let us all be grateful for a land so fair, 
As we raise our voices in a solemn prayer.

God Bless America, 
Land that I love. 
Stand beside her, and guide her 
Thru the night with a light from above. 
From the mountains, to the prairies, 
To the oceans, white with foam 
God bless America, My home sweet home.
God bless America, My home sweet home._

Watch for the super special cameo at 4:20.


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## Torkelburger (Jan 14, 2014)

> I'm not arguing from popularity (to use a less fancy phrase).


I'm still not convinced.


> It only exists because a community (listeners, composers, critics) have judged it so.


Or in other words, "If many believe so, it is so." From the Arg. ad pop. page.


> It's that what sounds "American" (whatever that means) can only be based on what people tend to think American music sounds like.


Today, and for much of America's history, there is no such thing as American sounding music. No one conforms to those cliches anymore except in film scores. It's just "American music". That's all.


> How else could you define American-sounding music?


People have tried for a long time to shoehorn such and such a note, or notes, or chords and condition our minds and ears into thinking there is American "sounding" music, and composers should conform to writing such music. Like Bernstein, for example in the Young People's Lectures saying that Copland's "open fifths" are "American" because they conjure up images of America's "open prairies". It's nonsense. It's Dvorak all over again. People criticize Antonin but yet fall into the same trap themselves. They just think THEIR musical attributes are correct. They're not. Copland nor any other American composer isn't the only composer in history, including modern, to utilize composition with open fifths, nor is America even close to being the only country with "open prairies". Although you wouldn't believe it talking to most Americans, but America is not unique in it's independence or "freedom" or abolishment of slavery, nor in it's musical representation of such matters. Jazz harmony was in use far before it's use in America (especially in France) and is not unique to our country nor was it developed here. Neither is syncopation, etc.


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## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

I tend to think of 'American' music as a certain blend of brass and strings. This first is the stereotypical music to me. It seems to have come from Copland's influence to my ears.











Here is another stereotype, and its obvious source of inspiration.


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## Op.123 (Mar 25, 2013)




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## Coach G (Apr 22, 2020)

larold said:


> _I think what makes something American is if a lot of people think it's particularly American._
> 
> How is that perception any different than any other national form of music?
> 
> ...


The question is:

Could anyone but a German composed the music of Brahms?

Could anyone but an Englishman compose the music of Elgar?

Sure, from a Behavioral perspective we, the listeners, make certain associations regarding composer and country based upon extra-musical stimuli (_A German Requiem_, _Pomp and Circumstance_, etc.), but from a Socio-Psychological perspective, can the composer ever not be a product of his or her culture?

Copland conceded that his _El Salon Mexico_ can only be interpreted as a portrait of Mexican music from the view of a tourist. Likewise, Rimsky's _Capriccio Espanol_, Ravel's _Spanish Rhapsody_ and Debussy's _Iberia_ (as entertaining as those works are) are more musical travelogues when compared with Falla's _Amor Brujo_ or Rodrigo's _Concierto de Aranjuez_. And a talented enough composer from any country could probably compose music that sounds like Brahms or Elgar, but it won't be original.


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## Gray Bean (May 13, 2020)

That’s hard. Gershwin...Porgy and Bess for opera, Copland 3rd Symphony, Barber Violin Concerto


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## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

Coach G said:


> The question is:
> 
> Could anyone but a German composed the music of Brahms?
> 
> ...


I always thought a lot of Elgar's music sounded as if could actually have come from Germany - it never struck me as being as 'English' as, say, Vaughan Williams. I'm not nit-picking or trying to derail - I think yours is an interesting post.


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## chu42 (Aug 14, 2018)

millionrainbows said:


> America's most popular and recognizable legacy is not going to be in "classical" music by Copland, Ives, or anybody else.
> 
> _Star Wars!
> The Raiders of the Lost Ark!_
> ...


Yes, but in a classical music discussion the OP obviously refers to art music rather than popular music.

Otherwise perhaps this would be the most "German" music.


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## Coach G (Apr 22, 2020)

elgars ghost said:


> I always thought a lot of Elgar's music sounded as if could actually have come from Germany - it never struck me as being as 'English' as, say, Vaughan Williams. I'm not nit-picking or trying to derail - I think yours is an interesting post.


It could be that while Elgar looked to German models such as Brahms and Richard Strauss, Vaughan Williams was after a sound that was reflective of English folk music. There was a school of American composers that predated Ives, Copland and Gershwin; that included now nearly forgotten composers Horatio Parker, Amy Beach, George Chadwick, and Edward MacDowell. Their music is second-tier (or third-tier?) rewrites of Mendelssohn, Schubert, Schumann, Brahms, and Chopin. Actually, some of MacDowell's piano miniatures are not that bad, and some of Amy Beach's songs are quite good, as well.


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## Fabulin (Jun 10, 2019)

chu42 said:


> Yes, but in a classical music discussion the OP obviously refers to art music rather than popular music.


Let me just remind you that in a classical music discussion both _Star Wars_ and _Raiders of the Lost Ark_ are valid choices.


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## Gallus (Feb 8, 2018)

Something by Copland. Appalachian Mountain Spring or Billy the Kid.


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## VitellioScarpia (Aug 27, 2017)

Olias said:


> Yeah, that's not your fault though. As a music teacher in America, I can say it's our fault for being culturally ignorant and not giving a flip about historical context. Some Americans are legitimately cultured, but the vast majority have no freaking clue. People put 1812 in 4th of July shows because it's loud and things go boom. I absolutely take WAY more pleasure than I should in letting white racist christian fundamentalist ******** in my area know that the piece is about Russia's victory over the French and was composed by a homosexual. It makes their MAGA hats fly right off their heads.


I did not expect so much irony and humor in this forum! Olias, you have given me a much needed belly laugh.


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## nncortes (Oct 5, 2014)

pianozach said:


> There is one song that came to mind.
> 
> *God Bless America*, sung by Kate Smith.
> Words and music by Irving Berlin © Copyright 1938
> ...


It doesn't get more American than that song and that cameo appearance.


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