# ...How to Listen To and Understand Beethoven's Symphonies?



## ethan417

Hi

What resources are available to help me develop my knowledge, understanding and appreciation of the Beethoven Symphonies?

I took 5 semesters of Jazz Theory in college (Berklee College of Music).
I have a good idea about music theory as it applies to guitar, jazz, pop, etc.
But I'm totally lost when it comes to listening to classical music.

Let me try to explain.
At 66, I've decided to take a long, enjoyable look at the Beethoven Symphonies.
As I started to read reviews and other posts, I saw discussions on sonata form, the trio, theme development, deviation from standard form, etc.

This was my big uh oh moment.

More than listen to the melody, I want to enjoy the learning process - the deep dive.

What resources can help me become an informed listener?

While searching the internet, I found George Grove's book - Beethoven and His Nine Symphonies - the title is linked to the Amazon page.

Is anyone familiar with this book?
Are there other resources you can suggest?

Many Thanks
- Ethan


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## Bigbang

ethan417 said:


> Hi
> 
> What resources are available to help me develop my knowledge, understanding and appreciation of the Beethoven Symphonies?
> 
> I took 5 semesters of Jazz Theory in college (Berklee College of Music).
> I have a good idea about music theory as it applies to guitar, jazz, pop, etc.
> But I'm totally lost when it comes to listening to classical music.
> 
> Let me try to explain.
> At 66, I've decided to take a long, enjoyable look at the Beethoven Symphonies.
> As I started to read reviews and other posts, I saw discussions on sonata form, the trio, theme development, deviation from standard form, etc.
> 
> This was my big uh oh moment.
> 
> More than listen to the melody, I want to enjoy the learning process - the deep dive.
> 
> What resources can help me become an informed listener?
> 
> While searching the internet, I found George Grove's book - Beethoven and His Nine Symphonies - the title is linked to the Amazon page.
> 
> Is anyone familiar with this book?
> Are there other resources you can suggest?
> 
> Many Thanks
> - Ethan


You do not state why Beethoven symphonies and not other genre or other time periods. I would suggest finding a good biography of Beethoven and start reading as most will cover the symphonies and some background of why Beethoven became the type of composer he became and how he influenced future composers. There is a member who has a website devoted to the classical era....his member name is Olias I think, close to it. If any members know the link perhaps they can post it as well. He is a teacher of music I think so good start here. Good Luck.


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## Bwv 1080

If you know jazz, forget about chord scale theory (its crap anyway) and just focus on functional harmony and learn some basics on classical period forms. charles Rosen’s book The Classical Style is a great start, as it is written by a musician, as opposed to a music theorist.


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## EdwardBast

The first thing would be to get a book on musical form. The one on my shelf is _Form in Music_ by Wallace Berry. Sonata form, rondo, sonata-rondo, "slow-movement form, "ternary, binary, and minuet and trio form are the essential forms for the movements of classical symphonies. Being able to identify and understand the formal patterns will help you internalize the music and to know and anticipate what will happen next and how what you're hearing conforms to or defies the conventional patterns of Beethoven's day.


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## Enthusiast

Surely, if Beethoven's symphonies work then you just need to sit back and listen? It is true that you might then have questions in your mind but they will probably be different for different people. Some will want to know about the history, others biography and some others musical theory. I am not sure that pursuing your questions is anything more than following your interests. I write this as someone who has frequently observed people approaching a piece from the viewpoint of music theory and thereby missing the elephant in the room. You have to know the piece - loving it or hating it - before you ask questions about it, don't you?


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## EdwardBast

If you want something more esoteric and live near a good music library, try Robert Hatten's _Musical Meaning in Beethoven_. 
There is also a whole book about Beethoven's Eroica and its reception and critical interpretations over two centuries, Scott Burnham's _Beethoven Hero._


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## wkasimer

ethan417 said:


> What resources are available to help me develop my knowledge, understanding and appreciation of the Beethoven Symphonies?


This is an excellent place to start:

https://www.thegreatcourses.com/courses/symphonies-of-beethoven.html

These courses go on sale quite frequently, discounted as much as 80-90%.

This is presumably the same item:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/1565853741

And so is this:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/The-Great-...Ds-w-Guidebooks-Robert-Greenberg/164144927931

An excellent survey of the symphonies.


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## mbhaub

You said it: Get this book.









First published in 1896, it is THE classic treatise on each of the symphonies. Indispensable guide. Written for professional and layman alike. I've been referencing it for 50 years and still learn so much from it. Since you can read music the numerous examples won't be a barrier. It also is available for free at IMSLP.

Pair it with a great set of recordings (Barenboim will do fine), a nice chianti, and you're set.


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## KenOC

I have enjoyed Grove's book for many, many years. And the recommendation for Rosen's _The Classical Style_ is also a very good one.


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## Roger Knox

_Beethoven's Symphonies: An Artistic Vision_(Norton, 2015) by Lewis Lockwood -- may be too advanced for a first go at Beethoven, but it is very accessible in writing style, is recent, and is by a scholar who's straight-ahead original research on the man and his music is much admired.


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## MarkW

Lockwood's book (and his biography), Grove's book, the relevant sections of Tovey's symphony essays and Michael Steinberg's symphony program notes (he and Rosen were roommates at Princeton), and any good, literate liner notes will get you started. Rosen's book is good, but often tangential to your purpose and presupposes a wider knowledge of the classical period repertoire than you probably have, but not musically beyond you. But, as suggested, listen to the symphonies and get to know them, and their effect, before you start in to why they work the way they do.


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## millionrainbows

ethan417 said:


> I've decided to take a long, enjoyable look at the Beethoven Symphonies.
> As I started to read reviews and other posts, I saw discussions on sonata form, the trio, theme development, deviation from standard form, etc. This was my big uh oh moment. More than listen to the melody, I want to enjoy the learning process - the deep dive.


You might be disappointed in the answers. A lot of this "development" stuff turns out to be very simplistic, or it's so particular to the piece's ideas that it defies the categorizations that people try to lay on it. Just get in the classical mode of thought and realize it's not rocket science. A "trio" is just something in triple time. If you read the Charles Rosen book on Sonata form, you begin to realize the fuzzy conceptual logic of a lot of this lingo. There's really no "sonata form" except "fast-slow-fast," and those are huge generalizations. This classical lingo is for ****-retentive thinkers who love to get bogged down in details and meaningless differentiations.

Let your ears be your guide; after all, you're not writing a book. You're listening to music. Music is sound, not ideas.


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## wkasimer

millionrainbows said:


> There's really no "sonata form" except "fast-slow-fast," and those are huge generalizations.


I'm no expert in music theory, but this strikes me as wildly incorrect. Admittedly, Beethoven and many who came afterward bent the rules of sonata form into forms that are almost unrecognizable, but composers of the Classical era generally followed sonata form, particularly for their first movements. And it's certainly not "fast-slow-fast".

And I think that it *does* improve appreciation of music if one has some knowledge of the major forms that composers employ. If nothing else, it gives me an appreciation for the composer's craft.


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## Manxfeeder

wkasimer said:


> And I think that it *does* improve appreciation of music if one has some knowledge of the major forms that composers employ. If nothing else, it gives me an appreciation for the composer's craft.


Form is what makes most of classical music intelligible, especially if it lasts longer then 3 minutes. If see a piece titled "Sea Drift," I don't know what to expect other than somehow I'm supposed to imagine water. If I see a piece titled Sonata, Passacaglia, Theme and Variations, I know the form, so I know how to listen to it.


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## millionrainbows

wkasimer said:


> I'm no expert in music theory, but this strikes me as wildly incorrect. Admittedly, Beethoven and many who came afterward bent the rules of sonata form into forms that are almost unrecognizable, but composers of the Classical era generally followed sonata form, particularly for their first movements. *And it's certainly not "fast-slow-fast".*


Then what are you saying it is? You haven't said. I think you're just disagreeing for the sake of disagreeing, and leaving your options open.



> And I think that it *does* improve appreciation of music if one has some knowledge of the major forms that composers employ. If nothing else, it gives me an appreciation for the composer's craft.


If the forms are so generalized, they are essentially meaningless.


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## millionrainbows

Manxfeeder said:


> Form is what makes most of classical music intelligible, especially if it lasts longer then 3 minutes. ...If I see a piece titled Sonata, Passacaglia, Theme and Variations, I know the form, so I know how to listen to it.


Passacaglia and Theme & Variations are much more tightly defined terms than "sonata" form.

"Sonata" doesn't even tell you if it's in three or four movements.


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## mikeh375

I wouldn't class Sonata _form_ as merely fast/slow/fast from a compositional pov. It's a structure for themes and their development.


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## wkasimer

millionrainbows said:


> Then what are you saying it is? You haven't said. I think you're just disagreeing for the sake of disagreeing, and leaving your options open.


No, I'm disagreeing because you're wrong. There is a difference between a sonata and "sonata form". Please read this:

https://www.libertyparkmusic.com/sonata-form/



> If the forms are so generalized, they are essentially meaningless.


They're only meaningless if you don't know what they actually are.


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## hammeredklavier




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## millionrainbows

mikeh375 said:


> I wouldn't class Sonata _form_ as merely fast/slow/fast from a compositional pov. It's a structure for themes and their development.


That's pretty vague, but "fast/slow/fast" is a generalization, too. What are you saying sonata form is? You haven't said. I think you're just disagreeing for the sake of disagreeing.


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## mikeh375

millionrainbows said:


> That's pretty vague, but "fast/slow/fast" is a generalization, too. What are you saying sonata form is? You haven't said. I think you're just disagreeing for the sake of disagreeing.


Think what you want but you are wrong. Mine was a perfectly reasonable post so why the aggression? I wouldn't mind, but what I've said is quite factual and not seriously open to anything to the contrary. I'll give you the credit for knowing what sonata form means from a compositional point of view.
Are you this unfriendly in real life?...on second thoughts, don't answer that because I can't be bothered, it's too hot here.


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## millionrainbows

wkasimer said:


> No, I'm disagreeing because you're wrong. There is a difference between a sonata and "sonata form." They're only meaningless if you don't know what they actually are.


Then tell us something, give us examples in your own words, not some link.

The piano sonatas of Mozart, for example, are good examples of sonata form as "fast-slow-fast."

Advice to all those who wish to know what "sonata form" is: just remember 
fast-slow-fast, and that formula will get you by 99% of the time.

Remember, there is no "correct" answer, since the form varies so much. Just use my rule-of-thumb.


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## wkasimer

millionrainbows said:


> Then tell us something, give us examples in your own words, not some link.
> 
> The piano sonatas of Mozart, for example, are good examples of sonata form as "fast-slow-fast."
> 
> Advice to all those who wish to know what "sonata form" is: just remember
> fast-slow-fast, and that formula will get you by 99% of the time.
> 
> Remember, there is no "correct" answer, since the form varies so much. Just use my rule-of-thumb.


If you're unwilling to learn, I'm not going to bother teaching you. Go read about sonata form so that you know what the hell the rest of us are talking about. Otherwise, you just come off as both ignorant and arrogant.

I'm done with this.


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## Manxfeeder

millionrainbows said:


> Advice to all those who wish to know what "sonata form" is: just remember
> fast-slow-fast, and that formula will get you by 99% of the time.


Respectfully, that is not how sonata form is taught in music classes. As has been said, sonata form is usually the structure of the first movement of a piano sonata/string quartet/symphony, also known as sonata allegro form. It is two themes in two keys which are developed, then restated in the same key, ending with a coda.

The number of movements and tempo of the movements of a sonata is not what is termed "sonata form."

You may define it that way, but that is not the way it is taught.


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## millionrainbows

wkasimer said:


> If you're unwilling to learn, I'm not going to bother teaching you. Go read about sonata form so that you know what the hell the rest of us are talking about. Otherwise, you just come off as both ignorant and arrogant.
> 
> I'm done with this.


I've got the Rosen book. My opinion is based on rule-of-thumb, not ignorance. But I do admit that 'sonata form' refers to the internal structure of one movement, as Manxfeeder so graciously pointed out above.


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## pianozach

I think the "Quick Guides" are an excellent way to get started.

There's also an awful lot of FREE online help, if you don't want to lay out cash on a book overfilled with detail.

https://www.gramophone.co.uk/other/article/beethoven-s-symphonies-a-complete-guide

https://www.carnegiehall.org/Blog/2020/02/A-Guide-to-Beethovens-Symphonies

https://www.classicfm.com/composers/beethoven/guides/beethovens-symphonies-where-start/


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## Olias

You can get a general overview of the Classical Period (with a section on musical forms) on the blog I put together. It's great for a general overview (and it's free). Then I highly recommend Robert Greenberg's course on The Symphonies of Beethoven (mentioned already).

http://somethingclassical.blogspot.com

I also have walkthroughs of Beethoven's first two symphonies here:

http://somethingclassical.blogspot.com/p/beethoven-symphony-1.html

http://somethingclassical.blogspot.com/p/thoughts.html


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## wkasimer

Olias said:


> You can get a general overview of the Classical Period (with a section on musical forms) on the blog I put together. It's great for a general overview (and it's free). Then I highly recommend Robert Greenberg's course on The Symphonies of Beethoven (mentioned already).
> 
> http://somethingclassical.blogspot.com
> 
> I also have walkthroughs of Beethoven's first two symphonies here:
> 
> http://somethingclassical.blogspot.com/p/beethoven-symphony-1.html
> 
> http://somethingclassical.blogspot.com/p/thoughts.html


Excellent - thanks!


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## Wes Lachot

I would like to second wkasimer's recommendation of The Great Courses (the links are earlier in the thread). Robert Greenberg is an incredible teacher, and he has courses in many of the great composers, as well as a course titled "The Symphony". As wkasimer pointed out, there are always Greenberg courses with steep discounts at any given time, and you can eventually get all of them for 75% off or so.

Charles Rosen's books "The Classical Style" and "Sonata Form" are important resources (he is a recognized authority on most things musical/arts related), but they may be easier to digest after watching some of the Greenberg videos. For instance, in "Sonata Form" he starts out with an essay on how difficult it is to even pin down what sonata form is, so you'll know you are reading something drected toward at least an advanced reader, if not someone thoroughly versed in the subject matter. Having said that, every book he's written is worth owning.

I just checked, and "The Symphony" and "The Symphonies of Beethoven" are on sale right now.


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## millionrainbows

I just listened to Brahms' Piano Concerto No.1: Fast-slow-fast.


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## Wes Lachot

millionrainbows said:


> I just listened to Brahms' Piano Concerto No.1: Fast-slow-fast.


MR: Please allow me to make the distinction between what you are saying about the fast--slow--fast order of the movements in the Brahms Piano Concerto #1, and what we mean when we refer to "sonata form", which is what the Rosen book is about.

The long definition of sonata form is, well, it's Rosen's book. But here is a short, pocket definition. (Like all short definitions it will necessarily be little more than a stereotype.)

The term "sonata form" refers to the structure of but one movement of a piano "sonata" in the larger sense. (Or it can be a concerto, symphony, etc.) So a Beethoven "piano sonata" (sonata in the broader sense) may or may not contain individual movements that are in "sonata form". Usually the first movement is in sonata form, and sometimes the last. Inner movements tend to be theme and variations form, or minuet/trio form, or a sort of truncated and streamlined ballad-friendly type of sonata form for the slow movements (Moonlight, for example). Mostly, we know the 1st movement will usually be sonata form, and this is where we expect the CP composer to make their grandest statement, because sonata form evolved as a way of grappling with and handling the most complex musical ideas without the whole thing becoming unwieldy. Sonata form pieces are more complex in terms of the number of themes employed, with at least a second theme being crucial to the usual "plot line". This second theme is usually more lyrical and in another key (up a 5th being the oldest paradigm).

All of this--the first and second themes along with transitionary passages, especially for modulation purposes, make up what's called the "exposition", and this is usually repeated, after which there is a "development" section. This section develops the main and sub-themes (there can be more than two) and usually involves modulations to distant keys and just about everything the composer can think of to "explore" the themes and their relationships. (In the case of Beethoven and Brahms these two themes are usually related, one derived from the other, and about every note in the entire piece is somehow related to the first few bars if you examine it closely enough. This act of deriving everything from simple DNA is another way of keeping a huge piece from becoming unwieldy.)

Next comes the main thing I find cool about sonata form--the recapitulation, and crucially, the resolving of the key differences that originally set up the "struggle" between the keys. Smart composers have come up with some really ingenious methods to make the themes all resolve into the home key, without making the music seem trite or overly simple. I point you again toward Beethoven and Brahms.

The final part to a sonata form structure is the Coda.


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## millionrainbows

Yes, I do see that 'sonata form' refers to the internal structure of one movement, as Manxfeeder pointed out, and that a "sonata" is a multi-movement work. 
This seems needlessly confusing to me, especially if you wish to refer to different kinds of sonatas: three parts, four parts, etc, as "forms of sonatas" or as "sonata forms."


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## millionrainbows

sctraffic2 said:


> This is very excellent *compostion* in our life.


compostion: material suitable for compost.

Beethoven must be listened to harmonically, in terms of root movements, modulations, and tonal areas.

Not contrapuntally or melodically.


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## Gargamel

millionrainbows said:


> Beethoven must be listened to harmonically, in terms of root movements, modulations, and tonal areas.
> 
> Not contrapuntally or melodically.


That can be said about most 18th- and 19th century music? Maybe even to some extent 20th century atonal music, in terms of close/open position and bass movement, instead of contrapuntally or melodically. (Must one listen differently to the first movement and the last movement of Schoenberg's 2nd string quartet?)


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## EdwardBast

millionrainbows said:


> Beethoven must be listened to harmonically, in terms of root movements, modulations, and tonal areas.
> 
> Not contrapuntally or melodically.


This is a ridiculous pronouncement. Obviously, normal people with functional musical intelligence listen in all of these ways and others at the same time.


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## JAS

millionrainbows said:


> compostion: material suitable for compost. . . .


Or perhaps that act of making compost from various piles of material.


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