# Beethoven’s Ninth Symphony



## Artemis

I'm afraid this is yet one more thread on this terribly over-done subject. But I couldn't resist it …

I have just finished listening to a 60 minute assessment of all/most versions of this famous Beethoven symphony which are currently available, as reviewed by Stephen Johnson for the BBC Radio 3's _Building a Library_ on their weekly _CD Review_. (see the link).

Stephen Johnson is seriously good value (obviously he would need to be to get this kind of job for the BBC). It's people like him, with known credentials, who I tend to take note of, although the BBC has several other presenters who give high quality advice on classical music/recordings.

It was a very interesting assessment, with lots of examples from different parts of the symphony. The versions most highly recommended by Stephen Johnson are:1. *Otto Klemperer 1957 live version* 11 Nov 1957, Royal Festival Hall, Stereo Recording, Testament Label (NB there are several recordings by Klemperer, so don't get it confused with others)

2. *Claudio Abbado/BPO live version 1996*, 1996 Sony Label​As per Radio 3's usual policy, the _Building a Library_ programme should be available to listen to again for one week after transmission. The recommended version of the symphony by Klemperer will be played on Monday, 28th December around 10.40 am (GMT). I must say I have always admired Klemperer. As I see it, this is "one in the eye" for the (amateurish) HIP crowd commentators, who tend to dominate discussion boards.


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## Chi_townPhilly

Artemis said:


> I'm afraid this is yet one more thread on this terribly over-done subject. But I couldn't resist it …


I'm grateful you responded to temptation in the Oscar Wilde fashion...


Artemis said:


> As I see it, this is "one in the eye" for the (amateurish) HIP crowd commentators, who tend to dominate discussion boards.


But not *this* one!

I carry no professional credentials on this issue, but I _do_ join you in admiration 
for the Furtwängler/Bayreuth EMI-GRC disc, so that counts for _something_, right?

Is it too much of a digression to speak of the 'journey of discovery' for Beethoven 9 recordings? I hope not-

My first hearing of the 9th, entire, was a library-loan LP by Ormandy-Philadelphia. Probably not the soundest limb to use as a 'jumping-off' point, but it was an eye-opener for a teenaged would-be dilettante. I think the next one I heard was by Steinberg & Pittsburgh- that one was a loan, too. The word 'underrated' gets thrown around a lot in reference to Ormandy- and although I like E.O. in Program Romanticism, Steinberg is REALLY underrated. The 'deletion-cleaver' hasn't been kind to him, either. I have some vague memory of hearing the breakneck Toscanini recording sometime in college. My first purchase of the 9th was the even-more-breakneck Szell-Cleveland rendition (still in the 'age-of-vinyl').

Along the way, I heard the Solti-Chicago analog recording, much-praised in the area I come from, and also the digital disc, somewhat less-praised. Nowadays, it's mostly Furtwängler and Karajan for me- although if I had to choose to try one that I haven't auditioned yet, I'd have to flip between Fricsay and Klemperer.


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## Weston

I have a Szell-Cleveland version recorded in 1965. I don't notice it being breakneck, but it doesn't quite do it for me. It seems to lack passion - if that is even possible with this piece. I once had what was to me a definitive version on tape eek: yeah, I know) that I have since lost, and I don't remember the orchestra or conductor at all. I have been looking for another version that has the same pacing and power as whoever was on that tape.

I shy away form pre-1960's recordings. I need the fuller frequency range of more modern recordings. Maybe I should check out the Abbado.

[ETA: Actually I do have a DVD of Abbado and the Berliner Philharmoniker featuring the 9th and 3rd recorded in 2000. I wonder if I can somehow get at just the audio? I wouldn't necessarily want to play the video when I'm just listening.]


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## World Violist

For all my not understanding Beethoven's 9th, I must have about 5 or 6 recordings of it. Karajan (from the first cycle on DG), Zinman, Toscanini, Solti, and Kurt Sanderling. As for which ones I outright prefer, I think I prefer Karajan's. I just need to listen to what I have a bit more, really.

I mostly just want to get Paavo Jarvi's recording.


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## Lukecash12

Two words: Hermann Scherchen.


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## Artemis

Chi_townPhilly said:


> I'm grateful you responded to temptation in the Oscar Wilde fashion...But not *this* one!
> 
> I carry no professional credentials on this issue, but I _do_ join you in admiration
> for the Furtwängler/Bayreuth EMI-GRC disc, so that counts for _something_, right?


As I said previously, the BBC's "Building a Library" programme can be listened to again for a week from 26 December.

I'm not sure if it's available to people outside the UK, as I recall having trouble earlier this year when I was in the States, but it may be worth a try, nevertheless.

Anyone interested, click this link Building a Library, then click on "Listen now"; once it starts, scroll forward to 09.30 and it follows for 60 minutes.

It's not a deeply intensive analysis of the score or anything like that, but simply discusses in lay terms some of the main features of the work and how various "classic" versions have tackled it, including Toscanini, Furtwangler, Klemperer, Hvk, Abbado, Zinman, Mackerras, etc.


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## scytheavatar

Weston said:


> [ETA: Actually I do have a DVD of Abbado and the Berliner Philharmoniker featuring the 9th and 3rd recorded in 2000. I wonder if I can somehow get at just the audio? I wouldn't necessarily want to play the video when I'm just listening.]


http://www.amazon.com/Beethoven-Sym...=sr_1_5?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1261978950&sr=8-5

This is the recording in CD form, and one of the best Beethoven Symphony Cycles you can get (so if you only have the 9th and 3rd it's worth getting this box set). Alternatively you can try one of those DVD ripping programs (I can't mention which ones since their legality is questionable).


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## beetzart

I have two recordings of B's 9th. One by Karajan and the other the Liszt Transcrition. Almighty piece of music. Infact, I would rank it right up there in human achievments; along with landing on the moon, building the pyramids, CERN, and the Cistine chapel!


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## Weston

scytheavatar said:


> http://www.amazon.com/Beethoven-Sym...=sr_1_5?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1261978950&sr=8-5
> 
> This is the recording in CD form, and one of the best Beethoven Symphony Cycles you can get (so if you only have the 9th and 3rd it's worth getting this box set). Alternatively you can try one of those DVD ripping programs (I can't mention which ones since their legality is questionable).


Since I own the DVD, I don't how questionable ripping the audio would be if I don't share it. All my CD's are ripped to mp3 audio and then stored away for safe keeping.

However, the price is reasonable in the link you provided.

To beetzart:

I agree it ranks up there with landing on the moon. I feel about the same way listening to it as I did when I watched the first moon landing. That's a great analogy.


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## Guest

I have begun exploring this symphony.

I have:
Karajan '62
Gardiner
Norrington

I am awaiting the arrival of Furtwaengler's recording with Bayreuth on EMI - I've heard much good about it. It should reach me any day now.

I would be very interested in hearing Klemperer's version. I am a huge fan of his - I enjoy his recordings of Mozart's Magic Flute, Beethoven's Fidelio, Bruckner's 6th, and Mahler's 2nd.


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## mueske

I don't like Furtwängler's recording(s). The tempo seems off at times, though that might be because I've listened to Karajan too much! 

Abbado, I also find very good. I also have an Ashkenazy recording, amazing clarity in the chorus, you can very clearly hear the brass, which isn't always the case with Karajan.

I once watched a Bernstein clip on youtube, waaaaay too slow, wouldn't recommend it to anyone.


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## HarpsichordConcerto

I have only one recording of Beethoven's 9th; by The Academy of Ancient Music/Hogwood, though I would like to acquire others including Gardiner's and Norrington's.


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## Tapkaara

One of my favorite symphonies. Current fav recording is Karajan's digital one on DG. Another fav is Klaus Tennstedt on BBC Live. Acoustics in the Albert Hall in this live mid-80s recording are strange at times, but the performance has no lack of bravura.

Like 1942 Furtwangler, too.


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## Sebastien Melmoth

An heretical proposal:
I wish Beethoven had ended the Ninth with the third movement (like Bruckner's Ninth), and left the Ode as a separate opus (like Bruckner's Te Deum).

Or, I wish Beethoven has gone with *his original intention* of using the finale of the a-minor String Quartet (Op. 132) as the fourth movement of the Ninth.

Often I audit only the first three movements of the Ninth.


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## Art Rock

I do that too - mainly because I simply cannot stand that fourth movement.


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## mueske

Art Rock said:


> I do that too - mainly because I simply cannot stand that fourth movement.


_Why_ not? It's like a crown jewel on an already marvellous piece of music.


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## Art Rock

Tastes differ.


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## starry

Beethoven was experimenting sometimes at the end of his life. Whether some experiment works or not is a matter of opinion perhaps. The 9th starts as an abstract work and it ends with a program. The bit where he brings back the theme from the first movement and has the vocalist respond to it just seems a bit simplistic for instance.


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## Weston

Yes, but the program is then about the music itself - sort of. That's got to be unique.


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## Guest

To each their own - but I would just as soon listen to the 5th without the 1st movement as listen to the 9th without the final movement.


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## starry

Wagner said the first movement of the 9th was a symphony in itself. It's difficult to follow it let alone resolve it by following it with 3 more big movements.


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## Whistlerguy

I have to express my great admiration for this symphony. I have listened to all Beethoven's symphonies many times, and to many other symphonies by other composers, but Beethoven's Ninth was always special for me. Nothing else provokes so much emotions as the Ninth. Every single movement of this symphony is perfect. After the finale I usually feel as if I have just finished a ride on roller-coaster. Really the entire symphony (and especially 4th movement) is like a roller-coaster of emotion. The Ninth is one of the first pieces of classical music that I have ever listened to (maybe even THE first), and it is still my absolute favorite. I haven't yet listened to anything that could top it.

I haven't yet listened to Bach's _Mattheus Passion_ and Wagner's _Ring _so I can't claim that The Ninth is greater than these pieces, but from what I have listened to, it's my absolute favorite.


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## JMJ

I loathe Beethoven .. and i simply can't stand the work at all ... so cumbersome & portentous.


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## Whistlerguy

> I loathe Beethoven .. and i simply can't stand the work at all ... so cumbersome & portentous.


I'd like to see some more elaborate explanation why some people can't stand the Ninth.


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## Sid James

I was fortunate to see it played live here in Sydney a few weeks ago. It was played by a smaller orchestra & choir, but was still pretty amazing. I especially like how he quotes the themes from the previous movements at the beginning of the final movement. "Cumbersome & portentous?" - go see it live, that might change your mind...


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## tgtr0660

Art Rock said:


> I do that too - mainly because I simply cannot stand that fourth movement.


tastes are really unpredictable... I wouldn't change that fourth movement for the world...


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## Whistlerguy

Whenever I finish listening to the fourth movement I proclaim "This is the best 25 minutes in history of music". Then after some time I say to myself: "Don't be so damn subjective, you have to listen to a whole lot of other stuff before making such statements"


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## Aramis




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## tgtr0660

Whistlerguy said:


> Whenever I finish listening to the fourth movement I proclaim "This is the best 25 minutes in history of music". Then after some time I say to myself: "Don't be so damn subjective, you have to listen to a whole lot of other stuff before making such statements"


Curiously, that tends to happen to me too.


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## afterpostjack

I don't see what is so special about the choral ending. I'd rather listen to the first 2 movements of the 9th, although I prefer both his 5th and 7th symphonies above the 9th.


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## Whistlerguy

I also love first two movements a lot! (Especially 2nd) In some situations I prefer listening to first two movements. But the choral ending is really special. Some recordings are poor and you can't hear all that you should hear. But if you are lucky enough to have a recording that is both passionate, well performed, and of good sound quality, and you listen to it with volume turned very high, you'll be in a way - overwhelmed. Of course 4th movement is best if you listen to it after listening first 3 movements first. If I listen only to 4th, sometimes I don't appreciate it on the same level because I am a little unprepared.


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## christmashtn

*Jochum's 80's EMI a real sleeper!*

Eugen Jochum's 1980's analog recording of the 9th on EMI, with the London Symphony Orchestra is a REAL sleeper, sort of like a combination of Klemperer, Sawallisch, Furtwangler all combined. It is just beautifully sung and played, with perfectly judged tempi all throughout. The soloists are Kiri Te Kenawa in her absolute prime, Robert Holl, Stuart Burrows, and Julia Hamari. The LSO chorus shines!! It has been issued on a midline EMI CD twice, the first time just with the 9th, the second time with the Fidelio overture tacked on at the beginning. Both have been out of print for quite a while, but copies can usually be found on amazon or ebay. Don't confuse this version with Jochum's earlier Philips and DG versions. His final EMI rendition is the best!!


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## Roberto

Does Beethoven have a great deal to answer for? After all, his ninth it was that inspired Wagner. Is that entirely a good thing?


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## tgtr0660

Roberto said:


> Does Beethoven have a great deal to answer for? After all, his ninth it was that inspired Wagner. Is that entirely a good thing?


What?

You have a lot to answer for about that last post... For example: what the hell does it mean?


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## SuperTonic

Roberto said:


> Does Beethoven have a great deal to answer for? After all, his ninth it was that inspired Wagner. Is that entirely a good thing?


Gee, if only Beethoven hadn't composed his 9th symphony! Then Wagner wouldn't have been an anti-semite and Hitler wouldn't have murdered millions of Jews!

Give me a break.


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## Toccata

SuperTonic said:


> Gee, if only Beethoven hadn't composed his 9th symphony! Then Wagner wouldn't have been an anti-semite and Hitler wouldn't have murdered millions of Jews!
> 
> Give me a break.


Sounds plausible enough to me. Just think what might have happened if he hadn't composed the Fifth as well. The BBC wouldn't have had a suitable piece of music to open its WW2 overseas radio broadcasts, morale would have been far lower, we would have lost the War, the Russians would have been annihilated, and the whole of Continental Europe would be speaking German. Hitler would have advanced into the USA, and Japs would have had an easier time of it, meeting their Axis partners in the middle somewhere around Arkansas.

I dare


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## Roberto

whoa... calm down!

I was merely pondering the influence of the ninth on Wagner ... actually it is unquestionable - it was a big influence


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## SuperTonic

So what?
How many composers after Beethoven have NOT been influenced by Beethoven in some way or another? Are we supposed to hold Beethoven accountable for all of their immoral actions or beliefs?


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## Guest

Roberto said:


> whoa... calm down!
> 
> I was merely pondering the influence of the ninth on Wagner ... actually it is unquestionable - it was a big influence


Beethoven did not know Wagner. The 9th has a final movement where Schiller's "Ode to Joy" was orchestrated. Hardly the makings for bearing responsibility for the actions of others. Brahms was heavily influenced by Beethoven, as were numerous others. I dare to say that most of the composers of the Romantic period were influenced by Beethoven. Mahler certainly was. Dvorak. How many more do we need to add to the list? Did they also end up like Wagner?


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## Aramis

> whoa... calm down!


One has to have frozen blood to stay calm while reading such bull**it:



> Does Beethoven have a great deal to answer for? After all, his ninth it was that inspired Wagner. Is that entirely a good thing?


No, really, I almost got heart attack. Are you serious? This is so unbelievably stupid that I'm afraid to answer and hear "you didn't get the joke!".


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## Toccata

Aramis said:


> One has to have frozen blood to stay calm while reading such *bulls**t*


There's tons more before this, or didn't you notice?


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## Aramis

Opal said:


> There's tons more before this, or didn't you notice?


If I didn't write anything it doesn't mean that I was calm while reading.


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## Roberto

> I'd like to see some more elaborate explanation why some people can't stand the Ninth.


Yes - so would I. In fact if I had time I'd love to do it myself.... I think it's the least good of his symphonies

What's the matter, Aramis? Wagner's great, Beethoven's great - aren't you interested in seeing how Beethoven makes Wagner possible? I guess it is rather academic.... but not bulls**t


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## Aramis

> What's the matter, Aramis? Wagner's great, Beethoven's great - aren't you interested in seeing how Beethoven makes Wagner possible? I guess it is rather academic.... but not bulls**t


If that's what you meant (strictly musical influence) why didn't you tell just after me and few others took the post as allusion to you-know-what?


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## Roberto

I didnt see the 'bulls**t' posts until just now, so I hope you (Aramis) are still in reasonable health after your heart nearly failed. 

I am taken aback by all the tetchy defensiveness on Wagner's behalf, suspecting anything less than wholehearted admiration as personal attacks. I don't believe Wagner's views affect his music (unlike Boccherini). Wagner is magnificent... though I don't love it all; and I am fascinated by the whole process that made him what he was (aside of course from his sheer genius). Beethoven has a lot to do with that I think (then there is Der Freischutz etc), and he did revere the ninth - it meant a lot to him as I understand it. But hey... there's room for some questioning here - I mean I can think of lots of Beethoven I prefer to the 9th. I expect lots of ppl can. But for Wagner, it was an important inspiration .. that's all, honest... I was looking for further insights along those lines


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## tgtr0660

No you weren't. You alluded to the wrong side of Wagner (you said "a lot to answer for"). Quite strange, blaming a symphony with such a chant to solidarity and joy like the ninth for whatever it is you wanted to blame it for...


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## Roberto

Well, yes, you're right, so since you point it out I'll be more precise:

As I said it's my least favourite of his symphonies - I don't actually like it because there is something unbridled about it, heavy and unsubtle. On the other hand I admire it, for its power (just as I admire Wagner). What I meant was (and this is a point about the music, not at all about the messages - though as it happens I don't think very much of Schiller's poem) that the 9th encourages Wagner in a certain direction, and although I would love to go to Bayreuth and see the whole _Ring_ cycle, I am more of a Brahmsian than a Wagnerian. But of course my comment was a bit cheeky - Wagner is massively influenced by Beethoven, but Beethoven cannot have the credit fot his greatness or his faults (if faults they be - and again I am talking _musically_)

The ninth is not as good, in my view, as some of Mozart's symphonies or as good as Schubert's last two.

So hope that's acceptable


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## Geclef21

*Beethoven Sym no 9*

The best preformence of the 9th sym is by Toscanini and the NBC sym bare none


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## christmashtn

*Bar none I would not say.*

All of Toscanini's recordings of the 9th are indeed superlative performances (in sound ranging from just fair at best to just ok.) My main complaint about Arty's performances is that there is just something indescribably Italian about them to my ears. The absolute best performances of the 9th in my estimation are all by European conductors (IE: Jochum, Furtwangler, Karajan, the elder Kleiber.) There is a mono Walter Goehr recording from the early 50's (with the Netherlands Radio Philharmonic) which is a real/sleeper killer performance if there ever was one. Originally on the Concert Hall label, a CD-R transfer taken from a rare open reel tape has been beautifully transferred by www dot rediscovery dot us. If you are a big fan of the Symphony 9, you really ought to check this one out. It holds up on its own against any of the 9ths greatest recorded performances.


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## Comistra

tgtr0660 said:


> No you weren't. You alluded to the wrong side of Wagner (you said "a lot to answer for"). Quite strange, blaming a symphony with such a chant to solidarity and joy like the ninth for whatever it is you wanted to blame it for...


The phrase "a lot to answer for" doesn't necessarily imply something extra-musical. Being that I'm not a fan of Wagner, I simply read it as a jab in his direction: he wrote a lot of undesirable music, and so Beethoven must take responsibility for that (i.e., he has a lot {Wagner's bad music} to answer for).

If you like Wagner, it might not even occur to you to think of his music as something that needs to be apologized for. But the fact that you inferred something else entirely doesn't mean that's the only possible inference.


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## Toccata

Roberto said:


> The ninth is not as good, in my view, as some of Mozart's symphonies or as good as Schubert's last two.


Interesting comment.


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## Guest

Roberto said:


> The ninth is not as good, in my view, as some of Mozart's symphonies or as good as Schubert's last two.


In terms of personal tastes, you may prefer other works to the 9th, and that is incredibly acceptable. It is not my favorite symphony, either. But in terms of impact, influence, transformation, it is hard to argue that any of Mozart's or Schubert's symphonies had anywhere near the influence on the musical world as Beethoven's 9th.

I think the biggest hindrance in the minds of many classical fans to affording the 9th its true place is the tendency to view this and other popular works as somehow inferior because less cultured people may also enjoy it. The 9th has done something that not a large amount of classical music has done - be so incredible to even garner appreciation outside of the normal circle of classical music fans. And to his credit, Beethoven had many works like this. How many people readily recognize, at least, the final movement of his 9th? Or the introduction to his 5th? Or Fur Elise? A few others have achieved this status - to mention just a couple, one thinks of Strauss' Also Sprach Zarathustra, Pachelbel's Canon, Mozart's Eine Kleine Nachtmusik.

I don't think it is wrong to consider Beethoven one of the most influential of composers, or to view his 9th symphony as one of his most influential works. From a strictly academic analysis of the symphony, maybe it doesn't measure up to others - I'll leave that to those who know more of such things. But considered as a whole, and in context, there are not many that stand next to it as peers.


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## Guest

Comistra said:


> The phrase "a lot to answer for" doesn't necessarily imply something extra-musical. Being that I'm not a fan of Wagner, I simply read it as a jab in his direction: he wrote a lot of undesirable music, and so Beethoven must take responsibility for that (i.e., he has a lot {Wagner's bad music} to answer for).
> 
> If you like Wagner, it might not even occur to you to think of his music as something that needs to be apologized for. But the fact that you inferred something else entirely doesn't mean that's the only possible inference.


Except that there has been plenty of context from this thread, and another, to understand the point that he was making regarding Beethoven needing to "answer for" Wagner.

But regardless, Beethoven does not have to answer for Wagner in any way, no matter what interpretation you use for the comment. Wagner was Wagner. He wrote the music that he did, and he was influenced by others, including Beethoven. But Beethoven did not create Wagner. Indeed, Brahms and Wagner were in two opposing camps of music in their time, and yet both revered Beethoven and claimed his influence. Did the Curies need to answer for the creation of the atom bomb because of their pioneering work with radioactive elements? Or maybe we need to go back to some of the first writers of opera, such as Monteverdi, and demand they answer for Wagner and his operas? Perhaps we could say that people like Haydn, who had a part in Beethoven's early instruction, need to answer for Wagner. Or maybe even Beethoven's parents, without whom there would have been no Beethoven to answer for Wagner. Yes, these are all ridiculous, because all are only tangentially and indirectly bearing on Wagner. As was Beethoven and his 9th symphony, completed when Wagner was only 11 years old. In fact, he was apparently also very much influenced by Carl Maria von Weber, as well as Mozart, particularly his Requiem.


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## superhorn

A very interesting an thought-provoking book has recently come out by the music historian and critic Harvey Sachs about the 9th symphony,and I recommend it highly.
It explores the historical background behind the 9th and its subseququent influence in the history of classical music and western culture. You'll gain a lot of insight into this masterpiece,I guarantee. Sachs places the work in its historical context and goes into fascinating detail about the legendary premiere in Vienna in 1824,when the composer was deaf. Don't miss it.


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## graaf

I came upon several Beethoven's compositions that had elements he will use in his Ninth, but not sure if those are all of it, or if there is something more to it. Music that contains themes later used in Ninth would be Choral Fantasy (similar to Ode to Joy 



 ), which can be dated back to song 



 go to 2min 55sec (even part at 0min 38sec reminds me of 



 at 0min 24sec). Also, part from 1m on of 



 sounds similar to me to parts from 3rd movement of Ninth.

I might be seeing (hearing) something that isn't there, but there might be things that I didn't see, so if anybody has any other info linking Ninth to some earlier compositions of Beethoven (or even somebody else), please share!


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## millionrainbows

What I really find fascinating about the Ninth is the little transition sections, which modulate by major thirds into new key areas, then the winds come in, playing that 'march of the trolls' theme. The last movement's drama is moving, and I love it, but it does not fascinate me for harmonic reasons, like the more obscure parts with all the harmonic movement do. So when the Ninth is touted as 'the greatest work,' I wonder if I am on the same page.

The Second Movement (Scherzo) of Beethoven's Ninth has some transitional material right before the modulation to E minor that involves root movement in thirds. The movement starts in D minor. Then, the transition: (1) CMaj-Amin-FMaj-Dmin...(2) Dmin-BbMaj-Gmin-EbMaj...(3) Ebmaj-Cmin-AbMaj-Fmin...(4) DbMaj (F bass)-Bbmin (Db bass)-GbMaj (Bb bass)-Ebmin (Gb bass)...(5) BMaj-G#min-EMaj-C#min- Then (in octaves, not triads):[A-Bb-B]...into E minor. Does that ring a bell? They fly by pretty quick.

This chord sequence, in which different key areas are briefly touched on, goes by as quickly as a bebop chord sequence. I hesitate to call these brief resting points "key centers", as they have not settled down into the key area yet, as finally happens in the E minor section which follows, so I would characterize the sequence as "transitional" material.

Notice how Beethoven is playing with both major thirds and minor thirds. The minor third root movements could be seen as I-vi, as in the first CMaj-Amin. The movement from Amin to Fmaj could be seen as a iii min-I Maj. This allows him to quickly establish new "tonic" chords (also, chords are constructed using major and minor thirds). Would anyone classify these as true modulations? If so, they are very compact.

BTW, root movement by thirds is the quickest way to go to distant key areas.

The root movement of these chords in minor and major thirds also outlines chords, like a

(1)D minor seventh, outlined by C-A-F-D, and 
(2)Eb major seventh, outlined by D-Bb-G-Eb, 
(3)Fmin7 outlined by Eb-C-Ab-F,
(4)GbMaj7, outlined by F-Db-Bb-Gb, 
(5)C#min7, outlined by B-G#-E-C#

...then the C#min7 is seen as iii min of A Major, then a chromatic climb to B (V of V in A), which is the V of the new key, E minor.

Could this "outlining of chords" also be seen as a "root movement" in its own right?

If so, we start out in D minor, which is then seen as the ii minor of C Maj, through G7. Then we have C major-D minor (seen now as a iii minor in Bb major)-Eb major(IV in Bb)-F minor(v minor in Bb)-Gb major(b vi in Bb and V in Db minor (C#)-C#minor(iii in A)-A major-(Bb)-B, finally to E minor.

If so, look how brilliant the "double meaning" of chords outlining other chords by their predominant note is.


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## millionrainbows

I don't know how I stumbled across this thread, but here it is, with some of my theoretical ramblings (which EdwardBast thinks I am incapable of). The thing is, I've got bigger fish to fry, like learning the modes of the harmonic minor scale. :lol:


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