# Most technically talented pop artists (Pop is anything from jazz and folk to metal)



## The Sound Of Perseverance (Aug 20, 2014)

These are my picks:
Muhammad suicimez




Christian Muenzner (2nd guitarist, not vocalist)


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

even if you're looking for guitarists with chops the problem is that technique is much more than speed. Ted Greene was not the fastest guitarist in the world but has an incredible deep knowledge of music so he could thing that many shredder can't do at all with all their speed. 
Anyway, considering what it seems you're looking for:

Scotty Anderson 




there are a lot of country guitarists with outstanding technique (from Albert Lee to Danny Gatton to Jerry Donahue) but the thing that floors me more than anything else in the technique of Scotty Anderson are his double stops

Joscho Stephan





Allan Holdsworth


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## The Sound Of Perseverance (Aug 20, 2014)

norman bates said:


> even if you're looking for guitarists with chops the problem is that technique is much more than speed. Ted Greene was not the fastest guitarist in the world but has an incredible deep knowledge of music so he could thing that many shredder can't do at all with all their speed.
> Anyway, considering what it seems you're looking for:
> 
> Scotty Anderson
> ...


hey man choose any artist you want. the ones in the first post were only my opinion.


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## Chordalrock (Jan 21, 2014)

As someone who has played the electric guitar, I have to say speed is really easy to achieve on a good electric guitar: you don't have to focus on getting the intonation right unlike in classical instruments like the violin, and you barely have to move your fingers up and down because the strings are so close to the frets. A year or two of intense practice as a teenager and you can do 16th notes at 220 bpm or more with perfect intonation because again it's not an issue with the electrical guitar. Meh.

This said, a guitarist who already as a young man seemed to have a sort of musicality and easy mastery that I don't find in other electric guitarists - Yngwie Malmsteen. His Black Star solos (from the studio album) have the kind of naturalness and musicality about them that is far removed from the usual blocky and try-hard stuff by others. Malmsteen started playing the guitar as a child, as opposed to in his teens which would have been typical, and you can notice the difference.


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

Chordalrock said:


> As someone who has played the electric guitar, I have to say speed is really easy to achieve on a good electric guitar: you don't have to focus on getting the intonation right unlike in classical instruments like the violin, and you barely have to move your fingers up and down because the strings are so close to the frets. A year or two of intense practice as a teenager and you can do 16th notes at 220 bpm or more with perfect intonation because again it's not an issue with the electrical guitar. Meh.
> 
> This said, a guitarist who already as a young man seemed to have a sort of musicality and easy mastery that I don't find in other electric guitarists - Yngwie Malmsteen. His Black Star solos (from the studio album) have the kind of naturalness and musicality about them that is far removed from the usual blocky and try-hard stuff by others. Malmsteen started playing the guitar as a child, as opposed to in his teens which would have been typical, and you can notice the difference.


Malmsteen is very fast, but to me he is truly a horrible musician.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

norman bates said:


> Malmsteen is very fast, but to me he is truly a horrible musician.


I wouldn't go as far as saying he is a horrible musician, but he certainly is tasteless, imo. As is the music presented above by the OP. "Technically talented" doesn't mean much to me. Technique is a tool to be employed in performance. It's not a guarantee for musicality, artistry, and creativity.

And virtuosity encompasses many other factors besides speed. Tone, articulation, vibrato, solid time, being able to play various rhythms and pieces of music in different keys, tempos, etc.


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## Guest (Nov 2, 2014)

Technically talented pop artists? Michael Jackson? Madonna? Not sure what "technically talented" means.


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## Chordalrock (Jan 21, 2014)

norman bates said:


> Malmsteen is very fast, but to me he is truly a horrible musician.


I was only talking about his talent in playing the solos in the piece that I mentioned. I'm not sure what you're talking about. His mostly boring and dull music? His casual and indifferent live solos?

I know what I hear in "Black Star" and what I hear is skill possibly unique in the rock and metal genres.


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## The Sound Of Perseverance (Aug 20, 2014)

I am not going to try to look for more musically talented metal artists because your expectations are unreal. When you guys look for musicians that you think are talented you completely disregard shredders. My guitar teacher has been playing for 12 years and he knows he can't play half as fast as muhhamad. I know I will never be able to play guitar like muhhamad because it is literally physically impossible for me. You do not have to make insane musical compositions to be credided as a good musician because most people can't do that.


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## Chordalrock (Jan 21, 2014)

The Sound Of Perseverance said:


> My guitar teacher has been playing for 12 years and he knows he can't play half as fast as muhhamad.


How old was he when he started? Childhood to around 17 years old is the optimal period for learning fine motor skills. Actually probably the ages 5 to 12 but the teen years are still a lot better than if you start when you're 20 or something.

Five hours per day of solid speed practice for a year when you're 16 and you're super fast already after that. The only reason everybody who plays the electric guitar isn't super fast is they started too old or didn't do a lot of speed practice when they were young (a lot of guitarists don't care much about speed).


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## The Sound Of Perseverance (Aug 20, 2014)

Chordalrock said:


> How old was he when he started? Childhood to around 17 years old is the optimal period for learning fine motor skills. Actually probably the ages 5 to 12 but the teen years are still a lot better than if you start when you're 20 or something.
> 
> Five hours per day of solid speed practice for a year when you're 16 and you're super fast already after that. The only reason everybody who plays the electric guitar isn't super fast is they started too old or didn't do a lot of speed practice when they were young (a lot of guitarists don't care much about speed).


He started around 12 and I started around 14 but that was February of this year and now I'm 15. But why is speed so looked over like I said in the original comment you don't have to be a musical genius inorder to be a good musician.


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

The Sound Of Perseverance said:


> He started around 12 and I started around 14 but that was February of this year and now I'm 15. But why is speed so looked over like I said in the original comment you don't have to be a musical genius inorder to be a good musician.


Speed is not looked over, but it is when it becomes just a demonstration of coordination instead something used to convey emotion, and art is about emotions. Than I know that a demonstration of virtuosity can be impressive as a number at the circus or Usain Bolt running fast but if one have a lot of speed and the only thing he can do with it is noodling like Michael Angelo Batio or Rusty Cooley he certainly isn't a good musician at all. A good athlete maybe, not a good musician. While there are those that make great music even if their technique is not that great.


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## Chordalrock (Jan 21, 2014)

norman bates said:


> art is about emotions.


It certainly is not. If it were, drugs + sex would be superior to art, but it's in fact a completely different thing, like comparing apples and oranges.

I rarely feel anything when listening to compositions which I consider to be great. The point is not in what I feel but what I experience - art is about an experience, and this involves mainly psychological processes that have nothing or little to do with emotion.


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

Chordalrock said:


> It certainly is not. If it were, drugs + sex would be superior to art, but it's in fact a completely different thing, like comparing apples and oranges.
> 
> I rarely feel anything when listening to compositions which I consider to be great. The point is not in what I feel but what I experience - art is about an experience, and this involves mainly psychological processes that have nothing or little to do with emotion.


that's why you like Malmsteen 
Seriously, to me all art is ALWAYS about emotion (music, painting, sculpture, even architecture), it can be something visceral, it can be sentimental and it can be cerebral and abstract like Webern but it's about that. But I'd like to know what are the psychological processes you're talking about.


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## Chordalrock (Jan 21, 2014)

norman bates said:


> that's why you like Malmsteen


It could certainly be why I'm so much into Dufay and Ockeghem. On the other hand, if I felt amazing while listening to Vivaldi concertos or Lady Gaga I might prefer listening to such music, but I still wouldn't find them more _aesthetically_ appealing, same as I don't find drinking beer aesthetically appealing regardless of what it makes me feel.


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## Chordalrock (Jan 21, 2014)

norman bates said:


> I'd like to know what are the psychological processes you're talking about.


Read up on perception.


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## The Sound Of Perseverance (Aug 20, 2014)

Chordalrock said:


> Read up on perception.


Are you on my side?


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## Chordalrock (Jan 21, 2014)

The Sound Of Perseverance said:


> Are you on my side?


I don't think speed alone is interesting, but I also don't think that aesthetically valuable structures or works or music need to be "emotional".

It's an absurdity to claim that appreciating art via our sensory organs is about emotion rather than perception, all the more so since the whole point of truly appreciating art is to put it above other sources of emotional thrills - clearly, perception itself is primal and everything else is of secondary importance.

This also means that guitar solos can't fruitfully be disregarded as bad art simply because they're not emotional. It doesn't, on the other hand, mean that they can't be critiqued on other grounds.


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## The Sound Of Perseverance (Aug 20, 2014)

Chordalrock said:


> I don't think speed alone is interesting, but I also don't think that aesthetically valuable structures or works or music need to be "emotional".
> 
> It's an absurdity to claim that appreciating art via our sensory organs is about emotion rather than perception, all the more so since the whole point of truly appreciating art is to put it above other sources of emotional thrills - clearly, perception itself is primal and everything else is of secondary importance.
> 
> This also means that guitar solos can't fruitfully be disregarded as bad art simply because they're not emotional. It doesn't, on the other hand, mean that they can't be critiqued on other grounds.


ok. i generally agree with what you said


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## DeepR (Apr 13, 2012)

Lang Lang mwaha


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## The Sound Of Perseverance (Aug 20, 2014)

DeepR said:


> Lang Lang mwaha


angular brush you aint that shau/a


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## The Sound Of Perseverance (Aug 20, 2014)

How is this thread 5 stars? everyone hates my threads


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## Cheyenne (Aug 6, 2012)

Don't worry so much kid, we're interested in what you have to say!


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## The Sound Of Perseverance (Aug 20, 2014)

Cheyenne said:


> Don't worry so much kid, we're interested in what you have to say!


ok i hope i can make it worth you while lol


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## Guest (Nov 5, 2014)

I want nothing to do with them or their music, but I'd say technically talented pop artists might be people like Mariah Carey.


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## The Sound Of Perseverance (Aug 20, 2014)

arcaneholocaust said:


> I want nothing to do with them or their music, but I'd say technically talented pop artists might be people like Mariah Carey.


what the ****.......


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## The Sound Of Perseverance (Aug 20, 2014)

my favorite guitarist is chuck and i know most of you will find it hard to admire him but I'm going to show the evolution in his music in only 15 years, from his first album to his last followed by his death
Scream Bloody Gore




Sound Of Perseverance


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## Chordalrock (Jan 21, 2014)

I like some of his solos as well as a few tracks (Suicide Machine, The Philosopher). Here's the solo from Lack of Comprehension:






I like the mood. And the tension at the end of it is effective.


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

The Sound Of Perseverance said:


> what the ****.......


She's a terrible singer for me, but technically she has great range and she can also use whistle register so it's not strange to see her mentioned here. 
But anyway, have you even tried to open the links I've posted or this thread was just an excuse to post your favorite death metal artists? I'm asking because of your comment about speed, I mean guitarists like Scotty Anderson, Joscho Stephan or Allan Holdsworth are fast as the fastest shredders (and more technical than many of them because they can do a lot of other difficult techniques that metal shredder usually don't use).


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## The Sound Of Perseverance (Aug 20, 2014)

norman bates said:


> She's a terrible singer for me, but technically she has great range and she can also use whistle register so it's not strange to see her mentioned here.
> But anyway, have you even tried to open the links I've posted or this thread was just an excuse to post your favorite death metal artists? I'm asking because of your comment about speed, I mean guitarists like Scotty Anderson, Joscho Stephan or Allan Holdsworth are fast as the fastest shredders (and more technical than many of them because they can do a lot of other difficult techniques that metal shredder usually don't use).


yes i saw all of them admired Joscho the most though. The rest were meh to me.


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

Chordalrock said:


> I don't think speed alone is interesting, but I also don't think that aesthetically valuable structures or works or music need to be "emotional".
> 
> It's an absurdity to claim that appreciating art via our sensory organs is about emotion rather than perception, all the more so since the whole point of truly appreciating art is to put it above other sources of emotional thrills - clearly, perception itself is primal and everything else is of secondary importance.
> 
> This also means that guitar solos can't fruitfully be disregarded as bad art simply because they're not emotional. It doesn't, on the other hand, mean that they can't be critiqued on other grounds.


I don't know, I was thinking about this interesting objection and I'm not sure but we process music with our brain as much as our ears. And if the most important thing was perception, than it would be not possible to say that anything is better than anything else: we perceive Miley Cyrus as much as Bach or Ligeti. But when we judge art we are making judgment about the quality of what we listen.


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

The Sound Of Perseverance said:


> yes i saw all of them admired Joscho the most though. The rest were meh to me.


Well, you were asking about the most technically talented: ask any metal shredder to do the things of Allan Holdsworth or Scotty Anderson and see if they can do it.


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## The Sound Of Perseverance (Aug 20, 2014)

norman bates said:


> Well, you were asking about the most technically talented: ask any metal shredder to do the things of Allan Holdsworth or Scotty Anderson and see if they can do it.


lol. don't know any XD


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## Guest (Nov 5, 2014)

The Sound Of Perseverance said:


> what the ****.......


norman bates said it. You asked for technically talented, and her vocal range is certainly much more massive than Chucky's 

As for technically talented metal guitarists, well, Chuck wouldn't be high on the list. Of course you'd probably have to think about bands like Gorguts or Watchtower or whatever, but it's just hard to separate technique from substance. And substance is something that is completely absent in half of Chuck's music, and his best albums were always inferior versions of albums by better bands, so I see no reason to listen to him.

Seven Churches, Morbid Visions, Abominations Of Desolation, etc > Scream Bloody Gore
Deicide, Severed Survival, Nihilist demos, etc > Leprosy
Unquestionable Presence, Longing For Death, etc > Human

There, the three listenable Death albums have no use to me.


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## The Sound Of Perseverance (Aug 20, 2014)

arcaneholocaust said:


> norman bates said it. You asked for technically talented, and her vocal range is certainly much more massive than Chucky's
> 
> As for technically talented metal guitarists, well, Chuck wouldn't be high on the list. Of course you'd probably have to think about bands like Gorguts or Watchtower or whatever, but it's just hard to separate technique from substance. And substance is something that is completely absent in half of Chuck's music, and his best albums were always inferior versions of albums by better bands, so I see no reason to listen to him.
> 
> ...


First of all seven churches can barely pass as death metal at all, they are hard thrash, nothing more. Morbid visions is good but no where near the level of sbg. Leprosy was a land mark death metal record it defined what death metal was and in my opinion was way better then sbg. Deicides music is bland and all they did was do what every other band was doing except with these "edgy" lyrics about satan. Why would you name a band then put 2 albums after it?
unquestionable presence, sure the album had good songs and a few cool sounding riffs but they weren't explored as much as they should've been.

Why would you admire a singer who is worshipped by little teen girls and grown woman still stuck in their youth. Why would a singer like her need Audio enhancing if she's so technical and varied.

The reason i like Chuck is because he aspired to make his music more interesting. He wasn't just going to scream in a mic and play random chords.
Did you even listen and compare the songs in the links i posted or do you like telling people how bad their tastes are.
and don't pull the card where you tell me I'm butthurt and i didn't even write that music so i shouldn't be freaking out, the reason i do this is because i don't like when people assault my taste when they clearly have no clue what they are talking about.


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## GreenMamba (Oct 14, 2012)

I am not sure if I'm good at judging technical aptitude (especially for reed instruments), but I'm going to throw *Colin Stetson*'s name into the mix. Certainly he seems to know all of the tricks.


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## The Sound Of Perseverance (Aug 20, 2014)

GreenMamba said:


> I am not sure if I'm good at judging technical aptitude (especially for reed instruments), but I'm going to throw *Colin Stetson*'s name into the mix. Certainly he seems to know all of the tricks.


thank you for your contribution


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## dgee (Sep 26, 2013)

How about Stevie Wonder and Patti LaBelle? They both have amazing chops. Al Green, Aaron Neville, Chaka Khan?


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## Morimur (Jan 23, 2014)

norman bates said:


> Malmsteen is very fast, but to me he is truly a horrible musician.


How can so many people be deluded into thinking he is a 'genius'? It's stupefyingly insane.


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## Chordalrock (Jan 21, 2014)

norman bates said:


> when we judge art we are making judgment about the quality of what we listen.


But are you judging it based only on your emotional response? That if anything would seem hopelessly subjective. Bach and a pop song aren't the same thing, regardless of any emotional reaction to them (or lack of): they create a different kind of perceptual experience - and of course this is to some extent very much subjective as well, depending on the person's background, memories, expectations, mental structures. I personally think the main object to be considered in the aesthetic evaluation should be the percept, not the emotion it possibly causes.


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## Morimur (Jan 23, 2014)

Terje Rypdal -- surprised no one had mentioned him.


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## Morimur (Jan 23, 2014)

dgee said:


> How about Stevie Wonder and Patti LaBelle? They both have amazing chops. Al Green, Aaron Neville, Chaka Khan?


Stevie has been on a downward spiral since the early 80s.


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## Guest (Nov 6, 2014)

The Sound Of Perseverance said:


> Opinion. Opinion. Opinion. Opinion. Opinion? Opinion.
> 
> Why would you admire a singer who is worshipped by little teen girls and grown woman still stuck in their youth. Why would a singer like her need Audio enhancing if she's so technical and varied.
> 
> ...


I did not say that I admire Mariah Carey, only that she is technically talented. Likewise, I have zero admiration for Yngwie Malmsteen, who is also technically talented to an extent.

Until a couple of years ago, I listened to metal more than anything, by far. I don't need to listen to the songs you posted; I either already know them, or I already know of them. I have written multiple metal blogs and whatnot, so I might know what I'm talking about too. Of course, we're both stating that we know what we're talking about on an internet forum, which is a pretty meaningless thing to do, and of course I know that I know nothing in the end, but it's all in good fun, right?


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## The Sound Of Perseverance (Aug 20, 2014)

Cynic.... love this band
what do you guys think?


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## The Sound Of Perseverance (Aug 20, 2014)

arcaneholocaust said:


> I did not say that I admire Mariah Carey, only that she is technically talented. Likewise, I have zero admiration for Yngwie Malmsteen, who is also technically talented to an extent.
> 
> Until a couple of years ago, I listened to metal more than anything, by far. I don't need to listen to the songs you posted; I either already know them, or I already know of them. I have written multiple metal blogs and whatnot, so I might know what I'm talking about too. Of course, we're both stating that we know what we're talking about on an internet forum, which is a pretty meaningless thing to do, and of course I know that I know nothing in the end, but it's all in good fun, right?


true. I guess it is pretty stupid to be fighting over the internet. in the end what are we going to prove? good fun. yes yes
BUT it still enrages me that some one would have the gall to edit my post. Who ever did that as an ***


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## Chordalrock (Jan 21, 2014)

The Sound Of Perseverance said:


> true. I guess it is pretty stupid to be fighting over the internet. in the end what are we going to prove? good fun. yes yes
> BUT it still enrages me that some one would have the gall to edit my post. Who ever did that as an ***


It seems that arcane edited the quotation, nobody edited your actual post.


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## Guest (Nov 6, 2014)

The Sound Of Perseverance said:


> true. I guess it is pretty stupid to be fighting over the internet. in the end what are we going to prove? good fun. yes yes


I'm more like you than you think. In fact, I'm a massive hypocrite in the grand scheme of things. You'll start learning soon that life is about _learning, every year, that you were an idiot a year ago_, and when you're posting on a slew of internet forums, you have to renounce old claims every year. Of course at your age I was massaging the ego of Mikael Akerfeldt more than Chuck Schuldiner, but then I figured out that neither really deserved it. Eventually you learn enough to be cautious with your statements, because chances are you won't care about what you care about now either.


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## dgee (Sep 26, 2013)

Inspired to listen to this again - from about 2:50 to 5:40 you'll hear some amazing human voice - terrifying raw talent there






Pure joy for me - not likely to be to everyone's taste tho!


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

Chordalrock said:


> But are you judging it based only on your emotional response? That if anything would seem hopelessly subjective. Bach and a pop song aren't the same thing, regardless of any emotional reaction to them (or lack of): they create a different kind of perceptual experience - and of course this is to some extent very much subjective as well, depending on the person's background, memories, expectations, mental structures. I personally think the main object to be considered in the aesthetic evaluation should be the percept, not the emotion it possibly causes.


Hoplessly subjective? No, I there's certainly a part of subjectivity but there's also a lot of common ground in our experience. That's why in my opinion there are different tastes but also people who not surprising has extremely similar ideas about the same piece of music. About the difference between Bach and a pop song, I would say that those are different genres but it's still music. If a label is useful to help people to find what they want to hear it's okay to use genres, but I don't change my brain to listen classical music, a piece of gagaku or a pop song. How can be different the "perception" of a piece of Celine Dion and the Art of the fugue? Both are just vibrations of the air, considering the perception.


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

The Sound Of Perseverance said:


> Why would you admire a singer who is worshipped by little teen girls and grown woman still stuck in their youth.


You should make up your mind, because technically talented (speed, coordination, knowledge of different techniques) and the value as a musician (taste, sensibility, imagination, refinement etc) are very different things. Sometimes you have both, but you're asking for the first thing, and a lot of idiots have the gift of a great coordination or the ability to do difficult things.


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## The Sound Of Perseverance (Aug 20, 2014)

norman bates said:


> You should make up your mind, because technically talented (speed, coordination, knowledge of different techniques) and the value as a musician (taste, sensibility, imagination, refinement etc) are very different things. Sometimes you have both, but you're asking for the first thing, and a lot of idiots have the gift of a great coordination or the ability to do difficult things.


well thats ****, can't change the title. ehhhh what ever


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## Guest (Nov 6, 2014)

The Sound Of Perseverance said:


> Cynic.... love this band
> what do you guys think?


Meh . . . pretty boring. Metal elevator music.


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## Chordalrock (Jan 21, 2014)

norman bates said:


> Hoplessly subjective? No, I there's certainly a part of subjectivity but there's also a lot of common ground in our experience. That's why in my opinion there are different tastes but also people who not surprising has extremely similar ideas about the same piece of music. About the difference between Bach and a pop song, I would say that those are different genres but it's still music. If a label is useful to help people to find what they want to hear it's okay to use genres, but I don't change my brain to listen classical music, a piece of gagaku or a pop song. How can be different the "perception" of a piece of Celine Dion and the Art of the fugue? Both are just vibrations of the air, considering the perception.


If the perception of a Bach piece and a pop piece were the same, then you wouldn't be able to tell which you are listening! Jeez, a little common sense, dude, if science eludes you!


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

Chordalrock said:


> If the perception of a Bach piece and a pop piece were the same, then you wouldn't be able to tell which you are listening! Jeez, a little common sense, dude, if science eludes you!


Maybe I've not understood how you define perception. And maybe we are calling in a different way the same thing. When I say that I think that emotion is extremely important, my idea of emotion isn't certainly limited to the amount of tears one produces listening to a piece of music or looking at a painting but something a lot more subtle.


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## Cheyenne (Aug 6, 2012)

arcaneholocaust said:


> I'm more like you than you think. In fact, I'm a massive hypocrite in the grand scheme of things. You'll start learning soon that life is about _learning, every year, that you were an idiot a year ago_, and when you're posting on a slew of internet forums, you have to renounce old claims every year. Of course at your age I was massaging the ego of Mikael Akerfeldt more than Chuck Schuldiner, but then I figured out that neither really deserved it. Eventually you learn enough to be cautious with your statements, because chances are you won't care about what you care about now either.


A wise lesson; but it is not all bad to declare an opinion one has at any time with organs blaring fortissimo, even if you will be embarrassed about it later! I will gladly live by that creed. "Speak what you think now in hard words, and to-morrow speak what to-morrow thinks in hard words again, though it contradict every thing you said to-day." 
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

I don't care so much for virtuosity in "pop music": a great part of the fun is that many of the musicians weren't formally trained, and are often far less technically accomplished than their brothers and sisters in the field -- yet despite those disadvantages, they give it their all, in their own highly idiosyncratic way. That is far more valuable to me than the pulling of strings at a fast speed, or the demonstration of a great vocal range. Listening to the singer from Raven once (I always wonder whether the band is called Raven because the singer sounds like one?) a friend got annoyed at his "amateurish" singing, but his energy is enticing, and captivates me by itself.


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## The Sound Of Perseverance (Aug 20, 2014)

some of my favorite lyrics:
Suicide Machine
Controlling their lives
Deciding when and how they will die
A victim of someone else's choice
The ones who suffer have no voice
Manipulating destiny
When it comes to living, no one seems to care
But when it comes to wanting out
Those with power, will be there
Prolong the pain
How long will it last?
Suicide machine
A request to die with dignity
Is that too much to ask?
Suicide machine
How easy it is to deny the pain
Of someone else's suffering
Robbed of natural abilities
In death they now seek tranquility
In a confused state of mind
Extending agony, they must be blind
Manipulating destiny
When it comes to living, no one seems to care
But when it comes to wanting out
Those with power, will be there
Prolong the pain
How long will it last?
Suicide machine
A request to die with dignity
Is that too much to ask?
Suicide machine

can you guys put down some classical music lyrics or something?


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## Morimur (Jan 23, 2014)

Cheyenne said:


> A wise lesson; but it is not all bad to declare an opinion one has at any time with organs blaring fortissimo, even if you will be embarrassed about it later! I will gladly live by that creed. "Speak what you think now in hard words, and to-morrow speak what to-morrow thinks in hard words again, though it contradict every thing you said to-day."
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> I don't care so much for virtuosity in "pop music": a great part of the fun is that many of the musicians weren't formally trained, and are often far less technically accomplished than their brothers and sisters in the field -- yet despite those disadvantages, they give it their all, in their own highly idiosyncratic way. That is far more valuable to me than the pulling of strings at a fast speed, or the demonstration of a great vocal range. Listening to the singer from Raven once (I always wonder whether the band is called Raven because the singer sounds like one?) a friend got annoyed at his "amateurish" singing, but his energy is enticing, and captivates me by itself.


I prefer Leadbelly.


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## The Sound Of Perseverance (Aug 20, 2014)

can someone post lyrics from a classical song of some sorts?


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## Cheyenne (Aug 6, 2012)

The Sound Of Perseverance said:


> can someone post lyrics from a classical song of some sorts?


Classical composers rarely wrote the text to songs themselves; most often, they adapted poetry by others. Additionally, it must be remembered that they often chose second or third-rate poetry, which the music could then enhance -- not perfect poetry which required no addition.

In the English song tradition, we could use Vaughan Williams' adaptation of Robert Louis Stevenson's _Songs of Travel_:

Bright is the ring of words
When the right man rings them,
Fair the fall of songs
When the singer sings them.
Still they are carolled and said-
On wings they are carried-
After the singer is dead
And the maker buried.

Low as the singer lies
In the field of heather,
Songs of his fashion bring
The swains together.
And when the west is red
With the sunset embers,
The lover lingers and sings
And the maid remembers.​
Finzi wrote settings of Hardy, Wordsworth, and Milton. Here's one of the Milton poems he set to music:

How soon hath Time, the subtle thief of youth,
Stol'n on his wing my three-and-twentieth year!
My hasting days fly on with full career,
But my late spring no bud or blossom shew'th.
Perhaps my semblance might deceive the truth
That I to manhood am arriv'd so near;
And inward ripeness doth much less appear,
That some more timely-happy spirits endu'th.
Yet be it less or more, or soon or slow,
It shall be still in strictest measure ev'n
To that same lot, however mean or high,
Toward which Time leads me, and the will of Heav'n:
All is, if I have grace to use it so
As ever in my great Task-Master's eye.​
You'd be hard-pressed to be find better "song" writing -- for simplicity and elegance in the first, and for elevation and splendor in the second.


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## Cheyenne (Aug 6, 2012)

As for lyrics I appreciate in "pop music" -- I often enjoy, among various others, those in which the band laments their true desolation before they became somewhat successful musicians: the desolate everyday living they were forced to endure for years. The sincerity is often touching -- yet is it rarely pessimistic in the way that, say, Philip Larkin would be. Observe: --

I was born on the back streets,
On the rotten side of town:
I never had me nothin',
Just people puttin' me down.

'Living on the dark side
Across the railroad track;
Leaving wasn't easy
But I'm never going back!

Never surrender!
When you're up against the wall!
Never surrender!
Stand up, fight them all!​
Or this one: --

'Woke up this morning more dead than alive,
Sentenced to madness from nine until five. 
The weather is lousy, think I'm gonna be late --
I don't give a ****, my mind is filled up with hate!
My breakfast is freezing, the milk has gone off,
I feel like telling the world to _**** off_!
I ain't got no money, I'm late for the train;
If I don't get out of here, it's gonna drive me insane!

Why does nothing ever turn out right?

Life's a bitch!
When it's got you by the balls..
Life's a bitch!
When you feel the squeeze..​
These sincere laments, uttered from a period they fear to recall, or far more powerful to me than failed attempts at appearing profound.


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## The Sound Of Perseverance (Aug 20, 2014)

Cheyenne said:


> As for lyrics I appreciate in "pop music" -- I often enjoy, among various others, those in which the band laments their true desolation before they became somewhat successful musicians: the desolate everyday living they were forced to endure for years. The sincerity is often touching -- yet is it rarely pessimistic in the way that, say, Philip Larkin would be. Observe: --
> 
> I was born on the back streets,
> On the rotten side of town:
> ...


thank you though its kind of annoying when people use cursing because they don't know what else to say but id be being hypocrite if i actually believed that. lol


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## The Sound Of Perseverance (Aug 20, 2014)

6. Open Casket

[lyrics - Schuldiner, music - Schuldiner / Rozz]

Approach the image filled with fear
As the image grows so clear
Future now takes full control
The one whose past you now behold
Touch - The flesh it is so cold
Turn away - You now have been told
Never to return, memories will last
In the future, you'll think about the past
Never to forget, what you have seen

People come to pay respect
Taking pictures of the dead
That is what life comes to be
Once they lived, now they're deceased

Death is oh so strange
The past no one can change
What you can't predict
Is how long you'll exist
Open casket - Open casket

Life will never be the same
Death can never be explained
It's their time to go beyond
Empty feeling when they're gone

Never to return, memories will last
In the future, you'll think about the past
Never to forget, what you have seen
What can not be real you now believe

This is schuldiners song about his brothers death. The sad thing is he died to way to young like his brother. In one of his interviews he said id like to live forever if thats possible and he barely got to live his life out


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## Guest (Nov 7, 2014)

"Der Erlkoenig" - poem by J. W. von Goethe
set to music by F. Schubert

Wer reitet so spät durch Nacht und Wind?
Es ist der Vater mit seinem Kind;
Er hat den Knaben wohl in dem Arm,
Er faßt ihn sicher, er hält ihn warm.

"Mein Sohn, was birgst du so bang dein Gesicht?" –
"Siehst, Vater, du den Erlkönig nicht?
Den Erlenkönig mit Kron und Schweif?" –
"Mein Sohn, es ist ein Nebelstreif."

"Du liebes Kind, komm, geh mit mir!
Gar schöne Spiele spiel' ich mit dir;
Manch' bunte Blumen sind an dem Strand,
Meine Mutter hat manch gülden Gewand." –

"Mein Vater, mein Vater, und hörest du nicht,
Was Erlenkönig mir leise verspricht?" –
"Sei ruhig, bleibe ruhig, mein Kind;
In dürren Blättern säuselt der Wind." –

"Willst, feiner Knabe, du mit mir gehn?
Meine Töchter sollen dich warten schön;
Meine Töchter führen den nächtlichen Reihn,
Und wiegen und tanzen und singen dich ein." –

"Mein Vater, mein Vater, und siehst du nicht dort
Erlkönigs Töchter am düstern Ort?" –
"Mein Sohn, mein Sohn, ich seh' es genau:
Es scheinen die alten Weiden so grau. –"

"Ich liebe dich, mich reizt deine schöne Gestalt;
Und bist du nicht willig, so brauch' ich Gewalt." –
"Mein Vater, mein Vater, jetzt faßt er mich an!
Erlkönig hat mir ein Leids getan!" –

Dem Vater grauset's, er reitet geschwind,
Er hält in Armen das ächzende Kind,
Erreicht den Hof mit Müh' und Not;
In seinen Armen das Kind war tot.


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## Cheyenne (Aug 6, 2012)

The Sound Of Perseverance said:


> though its kind of annoying when people use cursing because they don't know what else to say but id be being hypocrite if i actually believed that. lol


Yet the use of cursing is part of their _actual_ voice -- why distort it for the song writing? That is how they would utter their laments to themselves too. It's an honest cry for escape from their daily drudgery, and that's enough for me.



The Sound Of Perseverance said:


> This is schuldiners song about his brothers death. The sad thing is he died to way to young like his brother. In one of his interviews he said id like to live forever if thats possible and he barely got to live his life out


There are enough musicians who died young who still live the in memory of classical music enthusiasts -- think Mozart and Schubert! One of the problems with technical virtuosity in pop music is that pop musicians have to have an incredibly diverse range of talents -- songwriting and fine technical musicianship are hard to find combined. It's no secret -- when Mahler (the great German composer) wrote his own poems to adapt, they weren't of very high quality either. It's only natural. I've always thought it wise, therefore, to adapt readily available poetry; but then the musicians feel they aren't expressing _themselves_. I'm sure Schuldiner's lyrics are a very honest display of grief, but I don't find them very good in themselves. They say very little beyond that death is inevitable (a platitude, surely!), and don't make me understand his pain or grief. Don't you think the external circumstances are what makes them so touching to you?


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## The Sound Of Perseverance (Aug 20, 2014)

Cheyenne said:


> Yet the use of cursing is part of their _actual_ voice -- why distort it for the song writing? That is how they would utter their laments to themselves too. It's an honest cry for escape from their daily drudgery, and that's enough for me.
> 
> There are enough musicians who died young who still live the in memory of classical music enthusiasts -- think Mozart and Schubert! One of the problems with technical virtuosity in pop music is that pop musicians have to have an incredibly diverse range of talents -- songwriting and fine technical musicianship are hard to find combined. It's no secret -- when Mahler (the great German composer) wrote his own poems to adapt, they weren't of very high quality either. It's only natural. I've always thought it wise, therefore, to adapt readily available poetry; but then the musicians feel they aren't expressing _themselves_. I'm sure Schuldiner's lyrics are a very honest display of grief, but I don't find them very good in themselves. They say very little beyond that death is inevitable (a platitude, surely!), and don't make me understand his pain or grief. Don't you think the external circumstances are what makes them so touching to you?


i try writing lyrics for my future band because it is incredibly hard. I had a horrible young childhood but i barely remember it because i was only an infant so is it wrong to write about things you've never experienced? i don't think so.


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## Cheyenne (Aug 6, 2012)

DrMike said:


> "Der Erlkoenig" - poem by J. W. von Goethe
> set to music by F. Schubert
> 
> [...]


Ah that's a great idea! Goethe's poems were adapted numerous times in various guises by various composers, and are perfectly fitted for them. Here's another one:

*Auf dem See*

Und frische Nahrung, neues Blut
Saug' ich aus freier Welt;
Wie ist Natur so hold und gut,
Die mich am Busen hält!
Die Welle wieget unsern Kahn
Im Rudertakt hinauf,
Und Berge, wolkig, himmelan,
Begegnen unserm Lauf.

Aug', mein Aug', was sinkst du nieder?
Goldne Träume, kommt ihr wieder?
Weg, du Traum! so gold du bist;
Hier auch Lieb' und Leben ist.

Auf der Welle blinken
Tausend schwebende Sterne ;
Weiche Nebel trinken
Rings die türmende Ferne;
Morgenwind umflügelt
Die beschattete Bucht,
Und im See bespiegelt
Sich die reifende Frucht.​
And some translations, for those who don't speak German:

*On the lake*

And so I suck from the wide world
Fresh nourishment, new blood;
How close to Nature I am held,
Her breast how kind and good!
Our rocking boat, our beating oars
Keep time, waves lift it high,
And mountains meet our onward course,
Cloud-clad into the sky.

Eyes, why downcast now? What shining
Dreams return, what past repining?
Golden dream, I break your spell!
Here is love and life as well.

On the lake they glitter,
Many a tremulous star,
Soft mist drinks the distance
As it towers afar,
Round the shady inlet
Winged winds of morning blow,
And to the water's mirror
Ripening fruit hangs low.

_(Translated by David Luke)_​
*On the Lake*

I DRINK fresh nourishment, new blood
From out this world more free;
The Nature is so kind and good
That to her breast clasps me!
The billows toss our bark on high,
And with our oars keep time,
While cloudy mountains tow'rd the sky
Before our progress climb.

Say, mine eye, why sink'st thou down?
Golden visions, are ye flown?
Hence, thou dream, tho' golden-twin'd;
Here, too, love and life I find.

Over the waters are blinking
Many a thousand fair star;
Gentle mists are drinking
Round the horizon afar.
Round the shady creek lightly
Morning zephyrs awake,
And the ripen'd fruit brightly
Mirrors itself in the lake.

_(Translated by Edgar A. Bowring)​_​
*On the Lake*

MY blood flows fresh, my soul finds food,	
I roam the world at large;	
And Nature,-smiles she not most good?	
She holds my heart in charge.	
The wavelets lift our little boat, 
With the oars, in measured beat,	
And hills, piled cloudlike, hither float	
Our bounding bark to meet.

Eye, mine eye, why art thou sinking?	
Of those dreams must still be thinking? 
Go, Dream! golden as thou art;	
Here, too, love and life have part.

Under the wave fly, blinking,	
Shoals of stars, as I ponder;	
Flocks of clouds hang drinking 
Round the hills away yonder;	
Morning wind is dancing	
O'er the shadowy cove,	
From the lake come glancing	
Fruits half hid in the grove.

_(Translated by John S. Dwight)​_​
*On the Lake*

And fresh nourishment, new blood
I suck from a world so free;
Nature, how gracious and how good,
Her breast she gives to me.
The ripples buoying up our boat
Keep rhythm to the oars,
And mountains up to heaven float
In cloud to meet our course.

Eyes, my eyes, why abject now?
Golden dreams, are you returning?
Dream, though gold, away with you:
Life is here and loving too.

Over the ripples twinkling
Star on hovering star,
Soft mists drink the circled
Towering world afar;
Dawn wind fans the shaded
Inlet with its wing,
And in the water mirrored
The fruit is ripening.

_(Translated by Christopher Middleton)​_​
*On the Lake*

And now I suck fresh food, new blood,
From all the world with zest;
Dear nature, how she's fair and good
Who holds me to her breast!
The rocking wave lifts up our boat
In rhythm of the oars,
And mountains cloudy skywards float
To cut across our course.

Eyes, my eyes, why are you closing?
Golden dreams, once more proposing?
Dream, begone, though gold you be:
Here too love and life I see.

Stars in thousands blinking
Float on waves passing by,
Downy mists are drinking
Distance towering high:
Morning wind wings gently
Round the shadows-filled bay,
Ripening fruit contently 
Mirrors itself in the sway.

_(Translated by John Whaley)​_​
(I happen to be a huge fan of Goethe -- which is why I have so many translations of his, and painstakingly transcribed them all!)


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## Guest (Nov 7, 2014)

Oddly enough, I think Goethe was initially fairly reluctant to have his poems set to music, if I remember the stories correctly - and yet now the combination of Goethe and Schubert seems completely natural.


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## Cheyenne (Aug 6, 2012)

DrMike said:


> Oddly enough, I think Goethe was initially fairly reluctant to have his poems set to music, if I remember the stories correctly - and yet now the combination of Goethe and Schubert seems completely natural.


It is often said that Schubert sent a whole book of his settings to Goethe, which Goethe promptly returned. The fact is that, though he oddly never answered Schubert personally in a letter, he did note that he received them in his diary, and must have given written permission for the publishing of the Op. 19 Lieder for them to be published in Vienna with its tight copyright laws. An exaggerated portrait of the older Goethe still rules, where he supposedly was utterly blind to young talent -- having to do with his treatment of Schubert and Heine, among others. It is only partially true.

There are many discussions of music with Zelter, one of Goethe's most regular correspondents. It is at least clear he liked Beethoven's adaptation of Egmont, befriended Mendelssohn and admired Mozart a lot. As director of the court theater of Weimar he regularly schedule performances of _Die Zauberflöte_, _Le Nozze di Figaro_, _Don Giovanni_, _Die Entführung aus dem Serail_, _Così fan Tutte_ and _Titus_.


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## The Sound Of Perseverance (Aug 20, 2014)

Rain Eater

[Music: Uttley, Kunz, Biggs; Lyrics: Biggs]

Time has come, I know the walls around me, I've covered every inch.
I know they're calling to me. I'm bleeding minutes, seconds, days into this place.
But time moves so slow, I work finger bone.
The flesh no longer part of me: I must emerge.

I am the son of centuries of self-serving, sickening scum.
I can dig, and I can crawl away from this place of iron and stone.
I can just walk away, and I'll be free to go...
Heed the calling rain, to a place that I can call home

Bury me so I might grow.
Feed me rain, and leave me alone.
Bury me, and leave me alone.
Feed me rain so I might grow.

Knowledge through growth,
My veins grow out into the Gaian essence which feeds all life.
Grow into the essence which feeds all life.
Isolation, paralysis: the state in which I spend eternity interned. Eternity flows.
Time moves slowly, work to emerge, fulfill my purpose within the natural world.
Within this temple of dirt.
But time is no more, where this seed is sewn.
The flesh no longer part of me: I am alive.

I'm the sum of a million years of life, light and love.
Reaching once-dead arms to the all-giving sun above.
Men of flesh and blood would call this gift a curse.
But they don't know my pain, I would gladly serve this time a million-fold.

Bury me so I might grow.
Feed me rain, and leave me alone.
Bury me, and leave me alone.
Feed me rain so I might grow.


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## SiegendesLicht (Mar 4, 2012)

*Ich bin der Welt abhanden gekommen*

Ich bin der Welt abhanden gekommen,
Mit der ich sonst viele Zeit verdorben,
Sie hat so lange nichts von mir vernommen,
Sie mag wohl glauben, ich sei gestorben.

Es ist mir auch gar nichts daran gelegen,
Ob sie mich für gestorben hält,
Ich kann auch gar nichts sagen dagegen,
Denn wirklich bin ich gestorben der Welt.

Ich bin gestorben dem Weltgetümmel,
Und ruh' in einem stillen Gebiet.
Ich leb' allein in meinem Himmel,
In meinem Lieben, in meinem Lied.

(By Friedrich Rückert, set to music by Gustav Mahler)

*I am lost to the world*

I am lost to the world
with which I used to waste so much time,
It has heard nothing from me for so long
that it may very well believe that I am dead!

It is of no consequence to me
Whether it thinks me dead;
I cannot deny it,
for I really am dead to the world.

I am dead to the world's tumult,
And I rest in a quiet realm!
I live alone in my heaven,
In my love and in my song.


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## The Sound Of Perseverance (Aug 20, 2014)

Why would i want to read lyrics that i can't embrace myself into? All these songs are great stories but music you can draw your own conclusions from and apply to yourself are what really get to me. maybe Open Casket was kind of bland to you but he lets you read it and interpret for yourself it's not supposed to be a story about himself fully yet "about" you too or at least thats what i get from it.


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## Ludric (Oct 29, 2014)

On the topic of lyrics, in my opinion Don McLean is one of the most talented songwriters out there. His lyrics are pure poetry set to music, displaying a use of all sorts of poetic devices such as alliteration, analogy, metaphor, personification, etc. And like with all great poetry, his lyrics often have a deeper meaning that can take some time to unravel.

*Tapestry* - Don McLean

_Every thread of creation is held in position
By still other strands of things living.
In an earthly tapestry hung from the skyline
Of smoldering cities so gray and so vulgar,
As not to be satisfied with their own negativity
But needing to touch all the living as well.

Every breeze that blows kindly is one crystal breath
We exhale on the blue diamond heaven.
As gentle to touch as the hands of the healer.
As soft as farewells whispered over the coffin.
We're poisoned by venom with each breath we take,
From the brown sulfur chimney and the black highway snake.

Every dawn that breaks golden is held in suspension
Like the yoke of the egg in albumen.
Where the birth and the death of unseen generations
Are interdependent in vast orchestration
And painted in colors of tapestry thread.
When the dying are born and the living are dead.

Every pulse of your heartbeat is one liquid moment
That flows through the veins of your being.
Like a river of life flowing on since creation.
Approaching the sea with each new generation.
You're now just a stagnant and rancid disgrace
That is rapidly drowning the whole human race.

Every fish that swims silent, every bird that flies freely,
Every doe that steps softly.
Every crisp leaf that falls, all the flowers that grow
On this colorful tapestry, somehow they know.
That if man is allowed to destroy all they need.
He will soon have to pay with his life, for his greed._


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## SiegendesLicht (Mar 4, 2012)

The Sound Of Perseverance said:


> Why would i want to read lyrics that i can't embrace myself into? All these songs are great stories but music you can draw your own conclusions from and apply to yourself are what really get to me. maybe Open Casket was kind of bland to you but he lets you read it and interpret for yourself it's not supposed to be a story about himself fully yet "about" you too or at least thats what i get from it.


Well, different people can relate to different lyrics. I can _somewhat_ relate to the one I posted above, but the "What you can't predict Is how long you'll exist" comes across as trite and overused. Yeah, I know I will die, so what?


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## The Sound Of Perseverance (Aug 20, 2014)

SiegendesLicht said:


> Well, different people can relate to different lyrics. I can _somewhat_ relate to the one I posted above, but the "What you can't predict Is how long you'll exist" comes across as trite and overused. Yeah, I know I will die, so what?


Well yes most people do know they are going to die but it still sneaks up on you and hurts you no matter what. I actually wrote a song about death (not the band but the actual thing) i talk about death as a predator preying upon the unprepared i say you need to be fully aware of your life and all around you. Many people say they "know" this or that or the other but sit down and thing do you really know? For me knowing is about being prepared and if you're not prepared you truly don't "know".


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## SiegendesLicht (Mar 4, 2012)

The Sound Of Perseverance said:


> Well yes most people do know they are going to die but it still sneaks up on you and hurts you no matter what. I actually wrote a song about death (not the band but the actual thing) i talk about death as a predator preying upon the unprepared i say you need to be fully aware of your life and all around you. Many people say they "know" this or that or the other but sit down and thing do you really know? For me knowing is about being prepared and if you're not prepared you truly don't "know".


I sure would not want to die tomorrow (I have air tickets and hotel reservations for Bavaria beginning of January, so I don't want them to go waste, plus I don't want to die before seeing that place), but whether I am prepared... at least I know it can happen anytime anywhere.


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## The Sound Of Perseverance (Aug 20, 2014)

SiegendesLicht said:


> I sure would not want to die tomorrow (I have air tickets and hotel reservations for Bavaria beginning of January, so I don't want them to go waste, plus I don't want to die before seeing that place), but whether I am prepared... at least I know it can happen anytime anywhere.


hmmm not much of a response but ill take it


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## Simon Moon (Oct 10, 2013)

The Sound Of Perseverance said:


> Cynic.... love this band
> what do you guys think?





DrMike said:


> Meh . . . pretty boring. Metal elevator music.


Not boring to me.

Big Cynic fan here.

This happens to be one of their mellower pieces, but even so, it kicks in at about 2:20.


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