# Do all conductors' tempo choices slow as they age?



## Radames (Feb 27, 2013)

When I listen to Chicago Symphony broadcasts I shake my head at Muti's slow motion conducting. It wasn't like that back in the 80s. I remember listening to old Ormandy and Walter recordings where the tempos were pretty fast. Toscanini's tempos were generally fast even as he aged. Maybe they were even faster when he was young?


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Slowing down with age does seem a common phenomenon, but Toscanini may have done the opposite. It's almost as if he was desperate to get something done before the grim reaper snatched him. We can also observe Hans Knappertsbusch's interpretation of _Parsifal_ speeding up in Bayreuth recordings made between 1951 and 1964, the year before his death. Awareness of mortality is bound to change us in one way or another, but we'll all respond in our own way.


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## MarkW (Feb 16, 2015)

Not all, but a not insignificant number.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

Is it even possible to get slower than this?


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## Johnnie Burgess (Aug 30, 2015)

hammeredklavier said:


> Is it even possible to get slower than this?


Do not give him ideas of getting slower.


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

No ... check out Herbert Blomstedt at age 93. I don't think that Stokowski did either and he lived to 95, still active. I'm sure that there are other examples.


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## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

Make a list of ones who did for sure: Maazel, Bernstein, Walter, Boult, Celibicdache, Bohm, Giulini, Mehta and many others. There are many reasons: physical changes surely matter, and in a way, so does one's perception of time. Maybe they want to linger on beautiful moments longer - it may be the last time they can. I know a conductor who at age 75 is still very agile, with it, hears great and has more energy than people in the orchestra half his age, but he says the biggest challenge is keeping focused in long symphonies and operas - he's done it so many times that he just wants to get it over with and sometimes feels like he's racing to the conclusion.


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## Radames (Feb 27, 2013)

Becca said:


> No ... check out Herbert Blomstedt at age 93. I don't think that Stokowski did either and he lived to 95, still active. I'm sure that there are other examples.


I'm checking out Blomstedt in a few weeks at at Tanglewood. I heard him a few years ago and his pacing was good so let;s see how hos 90s are. I knew Haitink got really slow. I remember hos Mahler 1st in Boston.


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## MatthewWeflen (Jan 24, 2019)

Before the pandemic, I had tickets to see all 9 of Beethoven's symphonies at the CSO, conducted by Muti. I got through 1,3 and 5 before the shutdown. They were all about 10% too slow for my liking. And I'm not a fan of speed-demon Beethoven.

The only conductor for whom I have a career-long discography is Karajan. It's quite variable. Some things are slower (Brahms) but some are oddly faster (Beethoven, Tchaikovsky). For the most part, though, his tempii are extremely stable.


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## Bruckner Anton (Mar 10, 2016)

I remember Karajan did Strauss's September from the four last songs much faster in his 1980s recording with Tomowa-Sintow compared with his 1970s recording with Janowitz. Maybe the singers picked the tempo? Who knows.


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

Many conductors get slower as they age but only some of them also get better. Several of those mentioned here as slowing down also produced their best records at those slow speeds. Haitink is one example.


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

I’m imagining a Goodall Ring conducted when he was in his nineties! The mind fairly boggles at the thought. The first 24 hour Ring Cycle. Hagen wouldn’t have been the only one jumping in the Rhine!:lol:


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## Kiki (Aug 15, 2018)

There is a danger of drawing conclusion out of a performer's recorded legacy; as I suppose most performers are likely to perform a piece in concerts many more times than for a recording (live or studio), while they may also intentionally play it differently in a concert vs. in the studio.

Perhaps it may be slightly more convincing to look at the CD timings of someone like Karajan who was prolific in making records; while a good bunch of his live recordings also survived for comparison.

Looking at the timings of some of his popular recordings (applause excluded), he showed no predictable trend of speeding up or slowing down. His speed was consistent in some works, varying in others.

E.g. Karajan's Beethoven Ninths. He was reasonably consistent on records through the years.
1:06:59 1947, VPO (EMI) 
1:08:04 1954 Live, RAI Roma (Tahra) 
1:05:30 1955, Philharmonia (EMI)
1:06:49 1962, BPO (DG)
1:05:19 1963 Live, BPO (BP)
1:04:30 1966 Live, BPO (King International)
1:07:04 1976/77, BPO (DG)
1:05:57 1977 Live, BPO (Tokyo FM)
1:06:37 1979 Live, BPO (DG)
1:06:17 1983, BPO (DG)
1:05:21 1986, BPO (DG)

E.g. Look at some of his Bruckner Ninths. Now we see some variations.
53:53 1962 Live, VPO (Archipel etc.)
59:42 1966, BPO (DG)
61:36 1975, BPO (DG)
58:56 1976 Live, VPO (DG)

E.g. Some of his Bruckner Eighths. This is interesting, the fastest and the slowest were both recorded in 1957.
1:26:59 1957, BPO (EMI)
1:20:42 1957 Live, VPO (Orfeo)
1:22:26 1975, BPO (DG)
1:22:49 1988, VPO (DG)

E.g. His Mahler Ninths are the most interesting. Just when you think he tended to speed up, he slowed right down. :lol:
1:26:04 1979/80, BPO (DG)
1:24:17 1982 May Live, BPO (St. Laurent)
1:21:02 1982 August Live, BPO (St. Laurent)
1:24:42 1982 September Live, BPO (DG)


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## larold (Jul 20, 2017)

It happens all the time but not to everyone. Stokowski neither slowed nor speeded with increasing age while Bernstein's Mahler got broader and broader and broader as he got older.

I know from being 70, after 50 years with classical music, that my perception of much of it has changed. But I do not generally speaking like things a lot slower now than when I was young.

However ... a lot of the speeds authenticists and period performers insist on today is too fast for me. This is probably more true in Baroque music.


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## larold (Jul 20, 2017)

It happens all the time but not to everyone. Stokowski was active to age 95 and neither slowed nor speeded with increasing age while Bernstein's Mahler got broader and broader and broader as he got older.

I know from being 70, after 50 years with classical music, that my perception of much of it has changed. But I do not generally speaking like things a lot slower now than when I was young.

However ... a lot of the speeds authenticists and period performers insist on today is too fast for me. This is probably more true in Baroque music.

One thing is undeniably true: the older one gets, especially a conductor or someone else immersed in sound regularly the less well they are likely to hear. Just to cite on example, Karajan did not hear the highest pitches in his old age. Whether or not this would lead to slowed tempos I cannot say but I know it happens a lot.


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## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

And Bernstein wasn't even very old, he was in his mid/late-60s when he was already quite slow in Mahler, Sibelius etc. in the 1980s. He was also still sometimes jumping around like crazy on the podium, so it was not mainly for lack of energy.

Whereas for Karajan the numbers above show very little variation despite his frail health of his last few years.


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## dko22 (Jun 22, 2021)

Johnnie Burgess said:


> Do not give him ideas of getting slower.


is this even a real orchestra? It sounds more like a virtual one and not even one of the better ones


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## mikeh375 (Sep 7, 2017)

...........................................


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## mikeh375 (Sep 7, 2017)

dko22 said:


> is this even a real orchestra? It sounds more like a virtual one and not even one of the better ones


I haven't listened but the cover says Vienna Symphonic Library which are virtual instruments....and quite good for what they are in the right hands.
It looks from the cover credits as though some live players have been mixed in too, an old trick in media music to make the virtual sound a little more lifelike.


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## joen_cph (Jan 17, 2010)

We all know what Cobra stands for now.


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## Animal the Drummer (Nov 14, 2015)

It's a beer I always order with my food when I go to an Indian restaurant.

BTW we're comin' to get you on Wednesday!


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## joen_cph (Jan 17, 2010)

Animal the Drummer said:


> It's a beer I always order with my food when I go to an Indian restaurant (...)


Good, that's probably a Cobra in the better sense of the word :angel:


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## joen_cph (Jan 17, 2010)

Animal the Drummer said:


> (...)
> 
> BTW we're comin' to get you on Wednesday!


Yes, and when you are leaving, you'll surely be leaving!


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## joen_cph (Jan 17, 2010)

Radames said:


> When I listen to Chicago Symphony broadcasts I shake my head at Muti's slow motion conducting. It wasn't like that back in the 80s. I remember listening to old Ormandy and Walter recordings where the tempos were pretty fast. Toscanini's tempos were generally fast even as he aged. Maybe they were even faster when he was young?


A few others that experimented with alternative, fast tempi also in old age are Scherchen (say in Beethoven, Mahler and Weber), Casals as conductor, and Mravinsky (including Tchaikovsky 5).

But yes, generally most conductors often slow down, Klemperer being another prime/extreme example, from often very fast to often slow.


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

joen_cph said:


> But yes, generally most conductors often slow down, Klemperer being another prime/extreme example, from often very fast to often slow.


Although when one considers all of Klemperer's health issues, particularly late in life, it's amazing that he continued as long as he did.


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## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

Even excluding Klemperer's latest (say post 1966 or so) recordings, there is a slowing down already in the mid-late 1950s, and I think this can also be traced to some medical condition getting worse. His ca. 1951 Concertgebouw Mahler 2nd is still (one of?) the fastest on record and even among his mid-late 1950s EMI recordings there are some surprisingly fleet.


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## progmatist (Apr 3, 2021)

If Neeme Jarvi slows down with age, it would be a feature, not a bug. He's notorious for conducting pieces way too fast. Slowing down would be normal tempo.


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## SearsPoncho (Sep 23, 2020)

Woodduck said:


> Slowing down with age does seem a common phenomenon, but Toscanini may have done the opposite. It's almost as if he was desperate to get something done before the grim reaper snatched him. We can also observe Hans Knappertsbusch's interpretation of _Parsifal_ speeding up in Bayreuth recordings made between 1951 and 1964, the year before his death. Awareness of mortality is bound to change us in one way or another, but we'll all respond in our own way.


When Muti was director of the great Philadelphia Orchestra in the 80's, he gave an interview where he was asked about Toscanini's quick tempi in his last years, and he said exactly what you wrote in your 2nd sentence. I've found Muti to be significantly better live than on record. I attended a concert of Muti and the CSO a couple of years ago where they played an outstanding Tchaikovsky 5th and R-K Scheherazade. Nothing unusual or slow about the chosen tempos. There are a few works, such as Beethoven's 9th, which Muti has always conducted very slowly.


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## Allegro Con Brio (Jan 3, 2020)

Bruno Walter’s late recordings showcase a burnished warmth, wisdom, and humanity without a trace of indulgence or sentimentality; relying on gorgeous phrasing and natural flow rather than interminable tempi to make an impact. For example, he conducted the Poco Allegretto of the Brahms 3rd at its proper designated tempo in all of his recordings, rather than the incomprehensibly slow pace that many of his contemporaries adopted, hence ruining the contrast between the middle movements. Beecham and Stokowski also pretty much did what they always did in advanced age, as far as I’ve listened to their late recordings.


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## amfortas (Jun 15, 2011)

hammeredklavier said:


> Is it even possible to get slower than this?


By the time he gets to the next note, I've forgotten what the last one was.


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## HenryPenfold (Apr 29, 2018)

Q. Do all conductors' tempo choices slow as they age?
A. No, they get told off and they slow down.


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## larold (Jul 20, 2017)

_Bruno Walter's late recordings showcase a burnished warmth, wisdom, and humanity without a trace of indulgence or sentimentality; relying on gorgeous phrasing and natural flow rather than interminable tempi to make an impact._

That's true but if you listen to Walter conduct Mahler in the 1940s and 1950s from the Andante box you will hear a very different conductor than the genial master at the end of his life. His Mahler "Resurrection" symphony, in particular, shows the fire and passion of a young man in 1948. When he recorded it again in the 1960s it was slower, mellower and more moderate in every respect.


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## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

Walter in the 1940s was generally quite fierce. The live Don Giovanni and Fidelio from the MET that were/are available on Naxos historical are among the fastest interpretations of these pieces I have heard. In fact, even his "late" Brahms with Columbia SO is not really slow compared to many more recent Brahms.


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## joen_cph (Jan 17, 2010)

Not to mention the early Brahms cto 1 with Horowitz.


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## Axter (Jan 15, 2020)

Sir Georg Solti is another example of conductors who did not slow down. 


…… and I truly miss him!


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## superhorn (Mar 23, 2010)

In his later years, Otto Klemperer became famous, or notorious for his slow tempi , but he had been having a lot of health problems in his later years, such as a stroke which left him paralyzed on one side and which also left him with a permanent smirk on his face . 
But if you listen to his earlier recordings ,many of which were with the Berlin State opera orchestra, he was just the opposite - extremely fast and volatile .


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## Radames (Feb 27, 2013)

Axter said:


> Sir Georg Solti is another example of conductors who did not slow down.
> 
> …… and I truly miss him!


Actually Solti did slow a bit. If you look at his early Beethoven it was faster than his later Beethoven recordings. Look at his 1958 recording of Beethoven's 5th. He zips though the first movement in 7:28. In 1973 it was up to 8:17. His 80's recording is similar to the 70s one though.


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## Merl (Jul 28, 2016)

Interesting that Haitink was mentioned. Haitink's Beethoven speeded up as he got older. His later LSO set was brisker than his previous 2 cycles (but he was still no speed freak).


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## superhorn (Mar 23, 2010)

Solti also ommitted the first movement repeat in his first recording with the VPO, but observed in his Chicago recordings , so the timing was shorter in Vienna. In general, Solti was very generous in observing repeats , at least on recordings .


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