# If I'm Being Honest....



## Vesteralen (Jul 14, 2011)

This is a thread for confessions. I'm going to ponder on the honesty of my reactions to a number of things musical. Feel free to add your own if you like. 

My confession #1

Now, I really do like most of the music of Samuel Barber (and I've heard a lot of it). But, I wonder how much I'd like him if I hadn't had one particular experience.

My wife and I came late for a concert way back when and had to stay in the hallway till the first piece was concluded. That piece was Barber's First Symphony. At the time, I had a pretty closed mind to any music written after 1900 (though married, I was still pretty young at the time). We must have only heard the last three minutes or so of this piece from the hallway where we waited. But, it was like an epiphany for me. I had no idea of the power that modern symphonists could bring to an older form.

Because of that one experience, I've had a soft spot for Barber ever since. In all honesty, much as I love the Piano and Violin Concertos, the only other Barber piece that has ever really brought me any kind of a thrill is the First Essay for Orchestra.

My question is, would Barber be one of my favorite composers if it was some other 20th century composer who first opened my ears to this era?


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## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

Who knows? But I suspect that your ears were opened to Barber, not an era.


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## Arsakes (Feb 20, 2012)

So It's a "If I'm Being Honest.... I must confess" kind of thread we are commenting on 

8 years ago I didn't like 'Beethoven' and 'Piano'! I was more like a Violin lover who his favorite composer was Mozart.
Now everything has changed!

Also I didn't know many composers till 2011. My professional survey of classic music began with getting majority of Dvorak's works


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## Very Senior Member (Jul 16, 2009)

Vesteralen said:


> My question is, would Barber be one of my favorite composers if it was some other 20th century composer who first opened my ears to this era?


I can't say. But I too have long had a soft spot for Barber. I started with the Adagio and quickly developed an appetite for more. I guess I was lucky in my selection of subsequent works but I never found anything I didn't like. I finished up after a year or so having acquired most of his output.

I don't know where to begin but I love his Violin Concerto, Symphony No 1, First Essay For Orchestra, Summer Music and Piano Concerto. Among his many beuatiful songs I adore Knoxville Summer of 1915 (Dawn Upshaw version is gorgeous) and Sure on this Shining Night.

Next to Barber I'd rate highly Copland and Ives. Again I have most of their output. I also like a good deal of Gershwin's, Harris' and Schuman's work. What little I have of Hovhaness's work is very good. I must explore that further. It's all great American 20th C music, and I make no apologies (as a Brit) for expressing my sincere admiration for it.

My other favourite 20th C composers are mainly British: Elgar, Walton, RVW, Tippet, Britten. Oh and Delius too.

All all all these various composers pack a big punch, and there's more than enough here to keep my interest very much alive in 20 th C music without venturing much further into later styles. If I had to state an overall favourite I guess it would be Elgar, Walton, Barber, Delius, Britten in that order but it all depends on moods etc.


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## bigshot (Nov 22, 2011)

My confession is that as time goes by, I keep discovering I know less than I thought I did. For instance, I recently spent fifty bucks on MP3 downloads at Amazon of classical music by the big name composers. 7.2 days/17 gigs of music. Beethoven, Chopin, Dvorak, Sibelius, Debussy, Mozart, Bach, Handel, Mendelssohn, Brahms, Schubert, Schumann, etc.

Lots of people in the super duper bargains thread commented that these sorts of sets are only really valuable for newbies. But I've had it running though my wifi all over my house 24/7 since I got the batch, and I keep hearing things that surprise and amaze me. I really thought I had a handle on core repetoire and thought I should start investigating the second tier composers. But this experience has totally humbled me. I don't know if I'll ever have time to process all of the stuff most classical music fans think they've moved beyond. I suspect that more people are like me. They may have heard a piece once or twice, but they haven't really lived with it and absorbed it enough to really grasp it.

I've been awash in Wagner for thirty years, but I put on Tristan or Parsifal, and it's like I'm starting all over again. I'm getting a feeling I could live to be 100 and just listen to Bach, and still not fully grasp it... much less the raft of other great music there is to know.

Daunting.


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## Vesteralen (Jul 14, 2011)

Sort of a Confession 1A -

I actually like the symphonic music of Howard Hanson as a whole a little better than Barber's, though I seldom say so because it isn't conventional wisdom. Now, there's nothing in Hanson's output that compares in power with Barber's First Symphony or Essay, but I really, really enjoy listening to it.

That reminds me, I haven't checked for a while if there are any new recordings of the Hanson symphonies out there. I got all excited when Naxos started what looked to be a new Hanson set, but then they sort of abandoned it. The old Schwarz/Seattle recordings have always sounded second-rate to me for some reason. I know they're doing better recordings recently. Maybe somebody will give them another shot at them.


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## Vesteralen (Jul 14, 2011)

Well, there are some newer versions out there. No complete sets, but Schwarz/Seattle did the 2nd for Naxos. Need to check that one out.


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## Nadia (Jul 29, 2012)

I have to admit that I know nothing about non-Russian music after 1930. But I would like to learn... Maybe a good turist-guide would help me gradually get into the less accessible music. Many atonal pieces make me want to hit my head against the wall a million times because I just can't understand them. They make me feel confused because I don't know whether something is wrong with me or the music! 
Another confession; I spend 30 minutes a day (at least! sometimes even 1h 30min) filing my nails. Idiotic but neccesary...


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

Vesteralen said:


> ...
> My question is, would Barber be one of my favorite composers if it was some other 20th century composer who first opened my ears to this era?


Well its interesting, because the composers who opened my ears to more recent musics are still among my favourites. Its just that I've added more composers along the way, as I got more into modern/contemporary classical music.

Interesting with Barber, I also have a concert anecdote to tell, Vesteralen. Back in my uni days, I went to a concert which included his violin concerto. I don't think I'd heard anything by him before that, other than the famous 'Adagio for strings.' But funny thing is that the main themes from that concerto stayed in my mind for well over a decade, until I heard it next on radio, and eventually I got it on cd. Not many works, old or new, have kind of lodged themselves in my brain so strongly after just one listen. Not to speak of previously not knowing the composer beyond just one work. Barber's ability as a melodist or tune writer were amazing, and I still like how he puts it into a modern context, in that and in other works.

& I totally forgot another work of similar length they played at that concert with the Barber VC. Some wig. & of course I knew the Beethoven symphony they played, one of the famous ones of his (forget exactly which), he has been one of my favourite composers since the year dot.


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## Ravndal (Jun 8, 2012)

This is a bit extreme but.. I dont like fugue's (yet). I think they are irritating and stressfull, the music is just 'there' all the time. Feels like it never stops.

I'm sure i will grow to love them after some time. Only been listening to classical music for almost a year now.


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## samurai (Apr 22, 2011)

I'm still having an awfully hard time understanding, appreciating--and therefore--really "getting into" the symphonies of Bruckner. I am making somewhat better progress with Mahler, though. For some reason, I always associate the two in my mind, perhaps because--at least to me--their music always seems so heavy and long. My other confession at this juncture is that no matter how much effort I put into it, I stll can't appreciate Opera as a musical genre, and, except for the wordless vocal/chorus in Nielsen's *Symphony No.3 {"Sinfonia Espansiva"}, *I can't abide any choral singing in the symphonies by composers whom I usually really like, such as Shostakovich and Beethoven.


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## bigshot (Nov 22, 2011)

I had that same problem with Bruckner and Mahler. The unrelenting stress of huge contrasts wore me out. Overdose of Solti. I found I appreciated them much more when they had a bit of a Viennese lilt... Jochum and Bohm and Dresden and the VPO and others like that made the difference.

As for opera, it is primarily a dramatic medium. It has to be seen and followed like a movie.


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## Lenfer (Aug 15, 2011)

Ravndal said:


> This is a bit extreme but.. I dont like fugue's (yet). I think they are irritating and stressfull, the music is just 'there' all the time. Feels like it never stops.
> 
> I'm sure i will grow to love them after some time. Only been listening to classical music for almost a year now.


I wouldn't worry some people just don't like some things, however I bet one day your sitting there and then suddenly "What's this? A fugue! Ah HA! "

Welcome to the forum I see you are quite new I hope you enjoy *TC*. :tiphat:


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## Lenfer (Aug 15, 2011)

My confession(s)


I dislike most *Wagner*, after listening to *Wagner* I get the same feeling as if I've ate too much. 


When I was a child I was terrified of *Éric Satie* well the picture below. I thought he looked so strange perhaps the spectacles but now I kind of like his style. :lol:


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

samurai said:


> ...I'm still having an awfully hard time understanding, appreciating--and therefore--really "getting into" the symphonies of Bruckner. I am making somewhat better progress with Mahler, though. For some reason, I always associate the two in my mind, perhaps because--at least to me--their music always seems so heavy and long. ...


Well its not surprising, as they knew eachother, Mahler as the young student at Vienna Conservatory, and Bruckner who was the previous generation, a lecturer there. But funnily enough, Bruckner never formally taught Mahler. So that, plus what you say - the 'heavy' or profound aspect, the complexity and length & that they were principally symphonic composers - had musicologists up till about after 1945, when Bernstein pushed up the profile of Mahler, well they all kind of lumped them together, like father and son almost.

Of course now its easier to see them apart. I think there is similar thing going on with some other composer 'pairs,' eg. Mozart & Haydn, Debussy and Ravel, and the 2nd Viennese School guys too, maybe. But for me discovering the differences came with time and experience. & its ongoing, I am now on a quest to buy (bit by bit) all the Mahler & Bruckner symphonies on cd, as there are gaps in my collection, eg. I have to replace ageing cassette tapes of some of their symphonies.


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## samurai (Apr 22, 2011)

Yeah, Sid, That other pairing you mentioned--namely Debussy and Ravel--I had always thought of as being linked with each other. The other linkage I kind of thought about was Mozart and Beethoven, but as my listening has expanded and deepened somewhat, I am also tempted to say that I hear a lot of Beethoven's influence in Robert Schumann as well.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

^^Well the linkage issue is relevant to this thread, I think. As I got to know more works and more composers (& interpreters too), those linkages and connections got more interesting. Maybe the 'seed,' or the seeds, the first things we get to know will always be with us, eg. special to us, but of course its even better if they even lead to other great discoveries/experiences.


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## Vesteralen (Jul 14, 2011)

Interesting posts.

Another confession (and not, by the way, necessarily an _embarrassing_ confession, just a confession):

Although I have a large collection of it, I really don't like solo piano music all that much. Most of the piano music I've heard seems to be either 1) excessively technique driven (lots of runs and flourishes), inducing in me much more of a feeling of, "Ooooo...that must be difficult to play!", rather than "Oooooo...that's great music!"; or 2) excessively concerned with form (rather than substance).

I make one and a half exceptions and one guilty pleasure:

The half exception is Brahms - overly form driven a lot of the time, but he could occasionally break past it.

The full exception is Schumann. His intimate manner of composing for the piano hits me just right. Very little in the way of flourishes, very little real attention to form (even his sonatas and the great Op 17 Fantasy seem to me much more content-driven than form driven) - just musical ideas, perfectly expressed in the unique sound of the piano. He could occasionally disappoint - the third sonata is an example - too much technique - but, mostly, he was right on for me.

The guilty pleasure is Cecile Chaminade. Her style is a unique blend of the best of Chopin, Mendelssohn and Schumann, with just a touch of the late romantics. It may not be Great Music, but I can listen to it anytime.


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## Ravndal (Jun 8, 2012)

Vesteralen said:


> Interesting posts.
> 
> Another confession (and not, by the way, necessarily an _embarrassing_ confession, just a confession):
> 
> ...


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## peeyaj (Nov 17, 2010)

I have to confess:

1. With the exception of his piano concerto, I profoundly dislike Schumann's music. I tried to listen to him but he doesn't click to me. Whenever, there is discussion of Schumann here in TC, I always tried to remain civil and avoid criticisms to him, lest I would be reprimanded by other members. Schumann eludes me.

2. The first classical music that made me cry is the 2nd movement of Schubert's D.960 played by William Kempff. I just listened after failing my exam in my high scholl and I didn't notice that tears were welling in my eyes. In the end, I just bawled like a baby.

3. I have always thought myself as the protagonist of Berlioz' Symphonie Fantastique. When listening to that piece, I imagined myself as the protagonist of the symphony.

4. I have a deep respect to Edvard Grieg.

5. Haydn is not my cup of tea. 

6. The piece that I first heard that made me appreciate Beethoven is the Symphony no. 7.

7. I have tried listening to Ligeti because of COAG but I find him weird.


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## Ramako (Apr 28, 2012)

peeyaj said:


> 5. Haydn is not my cup of tea.


 Remind me never to go to your household for tea.

Ok: Confessions:

1. My listening habits are almost entirely restricted to 1750-1827. Beyond this I have to make a conscious effort.

2. I think that Chopin is clearly the best composer in his generation.

3. I think writing a lot of pieces is a good thing. It's all Beethoven's fault there.



peeyaj said:


> 4. I have a deep respect to Edvard Grieg.


Same. I also think Tchaikovsky more interesting than either Brahms or Wagner.

5. I actively dislike Tristan Und Isolde. I think I have never found a recognised masterpiece less interesting in my life, and I went into it with high hopes.

6. I make highly prejudiced remarks on a regular basis with no knowledge at all of the subject, and in the full knowledge that it is hypocritical.


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## Lenfer (Aug 15, 2011)

First of all I think this is a great thread *Vesteralen* thanks for posting. I do enjoy reading these, but it may be my understanding of *English* but a confession is something embarrassing or something that you wouldn't want others to know yes? Like confession to a priest?

I see no reason why anyone should have to confess to only really being fond of music between X - Y date. I think it goes to classification again "Classical" music is really many different styles of music as we all know. The fact that you may only like a few even just one is no deep dark secret to be ashamed of. You are perfectly entitled to say I'm a *Baroque* etc fan first and foremost. I hope no one actually feels bad or the need to hide this. :tiphat:


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## bigshot (Nov 22, 2011)

Dislikes aren't really the subject of this thread. If we go down that road, we'll end up with the same hot air that overinflates too many of the threads around here.


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## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

bigshot said:


> Dislikes aren't really the subject of this thread. If we go down that road, we'll end up with the same hot air that overinflates too many of the threads around here.


I agree. However, the nature of some of these dislikes intrigues me. _@peeyaj_'s non-resonance with Schumann, for instance, suggests to me that he has not yet acquired an inner demon.

[I am on rather good terms with mine.]


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## bigshot (Nov 22, 2011)

My demon isn't inner any more. I got an "outie"!


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## tdc (Jan 17, 2011)

Hilltroll72 said:


> I agree. However, the nature of some of these dislikes intrigues me. _@peeyaj_'s non-resonance with Schumann, for instance, suggests to me that he has not yet acquired an inner demon.
> 
> [I am on rather good terms with mine.]


Interesting...My initial thought was that Peeyaj was discriminating against Schumann for his criticism's of Schubert's Piano Sonatas (who could possibly dislike Schumann?!). Though I guess I could give Peeyaj the benefit of the doubt here, maybe he just doesn't like Schumann.

On another note I find Schubert's Late Quartets, Unfinished Symphony, and Winterreise as darker than anything Schumann wrote. Perhaps your demon analogy is conjured from somewhere else... I dunno. _Dichterliebe_ is fairly dark I suppose. I can't say I ever fully grasped your_ whistling by the cemetery_ Schumann analogy. He strikes me as a fairly 'fluffy' and 'feminine' (though at times melancholic) composer.


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## Rinaldino (Aug 2, 2012)

To be honest:
-I've never heard Beethoven's Fifth in its entirety.
-Saint-saens is a composer I like a lot.
-I cried on the opening of Busoni's Piano Concerto.
-At the beginning of my listening career I didn't like any major German composer.
-Sacred music is maybe my favourite genre and yet I'm disappointed by those works who rely too much on the idea of God.
-I often take myself too seriously.


Schumann's Gesänge der Frühe op.133 is really disquieting IMO. I listened to it in Rohmer's Compte de Printemps and it has become one of the piano pieces I like best. There is indeed something crazy and hallucinated in this music.


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## Vesteralen (Jul 14, 2011)

Looking back, I see I totally missed the *confession* part of my last confession.

The confession part is that I continue to buy solo piano music because I'm a completist - either in the sense of a composer (like Brahms), or a performer (like Helene Grimaud) - even though I seldom listen to it. (irrational behavior)

BTW, piano with orchestra is different - that I do listen to.


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## Ravndal (Jun 8, 2012)

Since I'm still alive after my last confession, i dare to give another one: 

I use a lot of time on trying to like Beethoven's orchestral pieces, without any luck, yet.


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## bigshot (Nov 22, 2011)

I have a suggestion for that, Ravndal. There's a DVD set of Alastair Cook's TV program called Omnibus. Leonard Bernstein hosted it once and did an analysis of Beethoven's 5th comparing different drafts to show Beethoven's thinking process. I found it to be fascinating and it made me appreciate Beethoven a lot more.


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## Ravndal (Jun 8, 2012)

bigshot said:


> I have a suggestion for that, Ravndal. There's a DVD set of Alastair Cook's TV program called Omnibus. Leonard Bernstein hosted it once and did an analysis of Beethoven's 5th comparing different drafts to show Beethoven's thinking process. I found it to be fascinating and it made me appreciate Beethoven a lot more.


Okay, thanks. That might be interesting. Will definitely check it out.

I have a little problem with the 5th symphony though. The theme in the first movement is so overly used, that i get a little bit annoyed when i hear it. It's silly, really... but it is like when i hear kids bragging about their piano skills, and every one of them plays the intro to für elise.


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## Vesteralen (Jul 14, 2011)

My third confession:

Though I'm probably above-average (compared to the general population, not necessarily to the people on this site) in musical knowledge, and though I've listened to a lot of classical music over a +40 yr time span, I still often have an almost impossible time explaining why I like one piece of music and not another.

As an example - why do I love Mozart's 39th symphony so much (always in my Top 10 list), but can take or leave every other Mozart symphony? Yes, I still like the Prague and the 40th in a way, but neither come close to my personal favorites list. So why the 39th?

At one point I actually wondered if it could the key it was written in. I mean, I really like Bruckner's 4th and Schumann's 3rd, too. But, then I remembered that my least favorite Mahler and Beethoven symphonies (8 and 3, respectively) were also written in that key, so that can't be it. (And, by the way, why _don't_ I like the "Eroica"? Same problem.)

In the end, I just give up. I can't explain it. Maybe I was just in a really, really good mood the first time I heard it.


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## Ravndal (Jun 8, 2012)

Vesteralen said:


> My third confession:
> 
> Though I'm probably above-average (compared to the general population, not necessarily to the people on this site) in musical knowledge, and though I've listened to a lot of classical music over a +40 yr time span, I still often have an almost impossible time explaining why I like one piece of music and not another.
> 
> ...




Thats the funny thing about music! It can connect so strongly to your feelings, and the mood you was in when you heard it.

I remember one summer, i had almost the same track on repeat every day. And when i listen to it now, years later, it makes me smile - and think back at the good times. And it feels almost like I'm there again, that perfect summer  Sometimes it happens unconsciously, and i just start to feel happy and euphoric.


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## peeyaj (Nov 17, 2010)

tdc said:


> Interesting...My initial thought was that Peeyaj was discriminating against Schumann for his criticism's of Schubert's Piano Sonatas (who could possibly dislike Schumann?!). Though I guess I could give Peeyaj the benefit of the doubt here, maybe he just doesn't like Schumann.


Nahh.. I like Schumann as a music critic and I don't agree with his assessment regarding Schubert's sonatas. I just don't like Schumann's music at all (with the exception of piano concerto). Among the Romantics, I placed him below Brahms, Dvorak, Berlioz, Mendellsohn and the like. 



> On another note I find Schubert's Late Quartets, Unfinished Symphony, and Winterreise as darker than anything Schumann wrote. Perhaps your demon analogy is conjured from somewhere else...


I agree.


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## bigshot (Nov 22, 2011)

Here is the Omnibus DVDs with Bernstein's talks...

http://www.amazon.com/Leonard-Bernstein-Omnibus-Historic-Broadcasts/dp/B002OVB9Z8/

Netflix probably has it. Bernstein has the conductor's score painted huge on the floor and he goes through showing Beethoven's early drafts and refinements and breaks down what each section of the orchestra contributes. Always good to look at familiar music in a new way.

The Young Peoples Concerts belong in everyone's library too. Not just for kids!


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## Klavierspieler (Jul 16, 2011)

tdc said:


> Interesting...My initial thought was that Peeyaj was discriminating against Schumann for his criticism's of Schubert's Piano Sonatas (who could possibly dislike Schumann?!). Though I guess I could give Peeyaj the benefit of the doubt here, maybe he just doesn't like Schumann.
> 
> On another note I find Schubert's Late Quartets, Unfinished Symphony, and Winterreise as darker than anything Schumann wrote. Perhaps your demon analogy is conjured from somewhere else... I dunno. _Dichterliebe_ is fairly dark I suppose. I can't say I ever fully grasped your_ whistling by the cemetery_ Schumann analogy. He strikes me as a fairly 'fluffy' and 'feminine' (though at times melancholic) composer.


Interesting. I always found Schubert much more "fluffy" and "feminine" than Schumann.


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## bigshot (Nov 22, 2011)

Schubert is a fantastic composer. Nothing lightweight about it. His music is ordered and organized on a dozen different levels.


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## Conor71 (Feb 19, 2009)

I have a poor attention span - it takes me many listens to begin to appreciate most Classical Music.
I buy too many CD's - I would be just as happy with less recordings.
I am not very discerning - I like most all music and dont have strong feelings for or against anything.


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## samurai (Apr 22, 2011)

@ Conor 71, May I most respectfully disagree with you about you're not being a discerning listener? *IMHO, *your tastes in both jazz and classical music are beyond reproach, at least from my vantage point. From what I can see, you are very ecletic--and yet, at the same time, selective--about the jazz and classical {prog rock as well} to which you listen and post about. I believe you enjoy and appreciate a wide range of musical genres, but are far from being indiscriminate in your choices.


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## mtmailey (Oct 21, 2011)

Barber ADAGIO FOR STRINGS WAS NICE SOUNDINGwhen i first heard it i was like wow not bad for modern composer.


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## peeyaj (Nov 17, 2010)

Klavierspieler said:


> Interesting. I always found Schubert much more "fluffy" and "feminine" than Schumann.


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## Conor71 (Feb 19, 2009)

samurai said:


> @ Conor 71, May I most respectfully disagree with you about you're not being a discerning listener? *IMHO, *your tastes in both jazz and classical music are beyond reproach, at least from my vantage point. From what I can see, you are very ecletic--and yet, at the same time, selective--about the jazz and classical {prog rock as well} to which you listen and post about. I believe you enjoy and appreciate a wide range of musical genres, but are far from being indiscriminate in your choices.


Thanks very much mate!


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## Very Senior Member (Jul 16, 2009)

peeyaj said:


> I have to confess:
> 
> 1. With the exception of his piano concerto, I profoundly dislike Schumann's music. I tried to listen to him but he doesn't click to me. Whenever, there is discussion of Schumann here in TC, I always tried to remain civil and avoid criticisms to him, lest I would be reprimanded by other members. Schumann eludes me.


This is something you continually raise in thread after thread. Why does it bother you so?


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

Vesteralen said:


> My third confession:
> ... in musical knowledge, ... I still often have an almost impossible time explaining why I like one piece of music and not another.
> 
> As an example - why do I love Mozart's 39th symphony so much (always in my Top 10 list), but can take or leave every other Mozart symphony? Yes, I still like the Prague and the 40th in a way, but neither come close to my personal favorites list. So why the 39th?
> ...


I've given up trying to figure out those sorts of things. Now I just go with my gut instinct. Whether I connect with something or not. Or at least have potential to. I also don't force myself to listen to things I know I won't like, after whatever previous experience I've had with same/similar thing.



Rinaldino said:


> ...
> -I often take myself too seriously...


I often do as well, but as I get older I am beginning to see the absurd things in life, the cliches and the going through the motions, and same too with music. In the end, its just music, basically. But I'm less a hardened cynic than an optimist of sorts (as long as I get my coffee in the morning...otherwise all hell breaks loose! :lol


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## Vesteralen (Jul 14, 2011)

My fourth confession (and the last one I can think of for now):

The older I get, the more impatient I get with music. In my mind, I buy into the concept of relaxed listening and letting the music flow, grow and develop. But, in actual practice, long works usually bore me. Maybe it's the feeling that my remaining listening time in this world is limited and I don't want to waste it, maybe it's just adult ADHD.

But, I can assure you that, if I haven't gotten into (for example) Wagnerian opera yet, well, it ain't gonna happen now. 

(I put on a DVD of Verdi's "La Traviata" last night. I've seen it in another version before -years ago- and I knew it was about as acccessible as opera gets. And, I enjoyed the first act. But, after the first act, I was done. On to "Inspector Lewis"...)


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## bigshot (Nov 22, 2011)

Opera is best on DVD or bluray. Nothing wrong with taking it an act at a time over a few days.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

Vesteralen said:


> My fourth confession (and the last one I can think of for now):
> 
> The older I get, the more impatient I get with music. In my mind, I buy into the concept of relaxed listening and letting the music flow, grow and develop. But, in actual practice, long works usually bore me. Maybe it's the feeling that my remaining listening time in this world is limited and I don't want to waste it, maybe it's just adult ADHD...


Well I also prefer standard length works. But depending on my mood, I can take in something like a Mahler or Bruckner symphony. These days I've been listening to their symphonies a bit, rediscovering them. I go through phases, sometimes I want to immerse myself into a longer work, it can be quite absorbing and epic.

Re ADHD, seriously, I don't like people joking about that. I dunno if its an invented medical condition, back in the old days they just described a kid who acted like that to be a bad behaved kid, simple as that. I'm not being politically correct, but bringing that in is no good even as a joke, as has happened on this forum in the past. Some person accused all us who don't like Wagner (or don't 'get' him, etc.) as having ADHD. Well to that I say **** off. I can't put it any more lightly. What if I reverse that, if fans of long music are like marathon runners, but there are sprinters as well, who specialise in short/fast races, and they are equally good as athletes, just different. So let's toilet false dichotomies here, not say people are not normal when they just have different tastes in music.



> ...
> But, I can assure you that, if I haven't gotten into (for example) Wagnerian opera yet, well, it ain't gonna happen now.


Ditto. As I have said before, great innovator but that's it with him for me. But people can enjoy his music as much as they want, good for them. Just don't ram it down people's throats.


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## Vesteralen (Jul 14, 2011)

Sid James said:


> Re ADHD, seriously, I don't like people joking about that. I dunno if its an invented medical condition, back in the old days they just described a kid who acted like that to be a bad behaved kid, simple as that. I'm not being politically correct, but bringing that in is no good even as a joke, as has happened on this forum in the past.


Well, I apoloize if I seemed to trivialize ADHD by bringing it jokingly into a conversation. The real ADHD, even the adult version (and there is such a thing), I can assure you I take very seriously, because my extended family is dealing with it right now. I guess I never thought if I used it jokingly with regard to myself anyone could be offended by it. But, I was wrong. So, I'm sorry.

With regard to my original point, though, I am serious. The older I get, the less patience I have, at least in the entertainment field. It seems sometimes as if my mind just does not want to concentrate for extended periods of time on a topic unless that topic so completely absorbs my interest that I'm unaware of the passage of time. There are still some things that can do that for me, but looking back on my life, I'd say my threshold for being hooked on something to the point of being absorbed in it has gotten a lot higher.


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## aleazk (Sep 30, 2011)

I think that Ligeti is outrageously more musically imaginative than any other post-war composer.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

Vesteralen said:


> Well, I apoloize if I seemed to trivialize ADHD by bringing it jokingly into a conversation. The real ADHD, even the adult version (and there is such a thing), I can assure you I take very seriously, because my extended family is dealing with it right now. I guess I never thought if I used it jokingly with regard to myself anyone could be offended by it. But, I was wrong. So, I'm sorry....


Its okay, I was not saying it to you really, but other people in the past have used the ADHD thing as a sick joke against those who don't like long music, can't stand it, or don't have patience with it, etc. Actually not just any long music, but long music that is not typical of a genre. Like Wagner's operas, not many (or any?) operas are as long as some of those in the standard repertoire. So there. But basically I don't care, I just think bringing in things like ADHD or the politics of Israel (comparing it to the Holocaust) is not on, its in poor taste, it just speaks to very low level thinking.

So what I'm saying is that what you're saying is fine, I was just reflecting on people who had agendas using ADHD.



aleazk said:


> I think that Ligeti is outrageously more musically imaginative than any other post-war composer.


Yeah well he was extremely creative in terms of works like 'Atmospheres' and the 'Requiem' where he basically got rid of melody and rhythm being the focus and moving towards the 'other things' which the more traditional composers often put in the background. It's those effects of being in a cloud or fog, its not solid or tangible like a rock or mountain, its there but its really not there kind of thing. No wonder Kubrick used this music in '2001: A Space Odyessy' as like outer space, it brings to mind infinity, timelessness, eternity.


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## brianwalker (Dec 9, 2011)

I dislike some of the fugues in the WTC. Is this normal? In my experience fugues are the easiest to lose track of if you're not giving it your undivided attention. I can't just "pick it up" from the middle unlike almost any other piece of music. People call the Art of Fugue dry but I find that many fugues in the WTC are drier than anything in those found in the former. 

Also, in the Muchinger/Stuttgart Chamber recording of a musical offering the 6 voice fugue is really difficult to hear clearly, the strings just blur into each other and you get the impression of the string section of an orchestra tuning. Charles Rosen says that you have to play the piece yourself to get it. Ricercar 3 sounds fine. I don't think there is a string sextet version is there?


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## ptr (Jan 22, 2013)

If I'm Being Honest.... I'm also one of those who really hate Opera on CD, with out the visual component it is really uninterestingly one dimensional. 

If I'm Being Honest.... I have a sweet-spot for Gilbert & Sullivan and what people in the UK call "light Music"... 

/ptr


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## jhar26 (Jul 6, 2008)

Although I'm not a fan persé I can enjoy Bruckner's symphonies when I'm in the mood for them. I confess however that I can never get into his fourth movements - can't make heads or tails of them.

The action packed Das Rheingold is my favorite part of the Ring.

And despite Evita, the pope, Piazzolla, Maradonna, Sabatini and Messi - Martha Argerich is still the greatest Argentinian!


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## apricissimus (May 15, 2013)

Sometimes I just get really tired of the sound of big string sections. Why can't there be symphonies and other large "orchestral" works without strings, or with minimal strings?


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## Guest (Jul 22, 2013)

Oh, but there are.

But this one of arpeggio's favorite topics, so his knowledge of this is vast and immediate. Mine is miniscule and not easily accessible. (The first example I can think of is what's 'is name's 19th symphony. You know, that guy I don't particularly like.

And Kurka's _The Good Soldier Schweik_ is not a large orchestral work.)


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## Ravndal (Jun 8, 2012)

apricissimus said:


> Sometimes I just get really tired of the sound of big string sections. Why can't there be symphonies and other large "orchestral" works without strings, or with minimal strings?


Me too!

151515


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## GreenMamba (Oct 14, 2012)

apricissimus said:


> Sometimes I just get really tired of the sound of big string sections. Why can't there be symphonies and other large "orchestral" works without strings, or with minimal strings?


Stravinsky's Symphony of Psalms doesn't have many strings in it, but it really isn't large.


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## jim prideaux (May 30, 2013)

......other than the piano concertos I increasingly struggle with Beethoven-his 'genius', aspirations for his fellow man and profundity almost intimidate in their idealism-give me the apparently more limited 'realism' (which nonetheless can celebrate the heroic in its myriad forms) of Sibelius or Dvorak, the threatened Shostakovich or the musicality of Walton-no the wonder Brahms felt as he did.....I know someone will take issue with this but there you go!


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## starry (Jun 2, 2009)

jim prideaux said:


> ......other than the piano concertos I increasingly struggle with Beethoven-his 'genius', aspirations for his fellow man and profundity almost intimidate in their idealism-give me the apparently more limited 'realism' (which nonetheless can celebrate the heroic in its myriad forms) of Sibelius or Dvorak, the threatened Shostakovich or the musicality of Walton-no the wonder Brahms felt as he did.....I know someone will take issue with this but there you go!


Maybe you could look at his music as being more about himself than some idealistic tract about his fellow man.


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## Ravndal (Jun 8, 2012)

Ravndal said:


> This is a bit extreme but.. I dont like fugue's (yet). I think they are irritating and stressfull, the music is just 'there' all the time. Feels like it never stops.
> 
> I'm sure i will grow to love them after some time. Only been listening to classical music for almost a year now.


Oh, gosh 

Some things change..


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## Guest (Jul 24, 2013)

So, not being a composer or anything, I can't really comment on classical works and say "I would do this differently", etc...

HOWEVER

I was just playing the first movement of Mendelssohn's violin concerto...a truly splendid concerto, but...I personally must confess that I think Mendelssohn done goofed. That damn opening theme is possibly the most marvelous thing I've ever heard from Felix...why on earth did he not recapitulate it throughout the concerto or at least the first movement???


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

apricissimus said:


> Sometimes I just get really tired of the sound of big string sections. Why can't there be symphonies and other large "orchestral" works without strings, or with minimal strings?


John Adams ~ Grand Pianola Music, for winds, brass, percussion, two pianos and three female voices.

His Fearful Symmetries uses a string section, but the writing seems more integrated with the other instruments, i.e. no big string sound.

Stravinsky Symphony of Psalms, 5 flutes (5th doubling piccolo), 4 oboes, cor anglais, 3 bassoons, and contrabassoon; 4 horns in F, piccolo trumpet, 4 trumpets in C, 3 trombones, and tuba; timpani, bass drum, 2 pianos, and harp; cellos and contrabasses; and a four-part chorus (soprano, alto, tenor, bass) -- no violins or violas, left out because at that moment for this piece he thought them "too sentimental."

[[ TC member Delicious Manager has complied, over the years, a ridiculously replete data bass of pieces listed by instrumentation, a handy thing for a manger of musicians and orchestras -- and that list covers extensive areas of rep, old to new. I cannot offer his time to you, but perhaps if you asked nicely  ]]


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## violadude (May 2, 2011)

I don't understand what the fuss about the Moonlight Sonata is for most people...and apparently neither did Beethoven so I feel pretty comfortable with that confession.

Also, I confess that I don't really get the hatred for Lang-Lang that most people feel. Maybe it helps that I'm not that interested in the performance aspect of classical music in general. I know that what bothers people are his faces and overly grand gestures...but for some reason that's never really bothered me at all. I don't really "pick up" any attitude from his faces or playing gestures. Actually, I don't pick up any attitude about anyone from their performance gestures and faces. I guess I'm kind of socially inept that way. All I pick up is that they are playing music....and ya...


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## brotagonist (Jul 11, 2013)

I have been for decades and continue to be a pretty devoted fan of contemporary classical music, but...

1. The more I know about classical music, the more I feel that something was lost when composers abandoned traditional compositional forms. A framework within which to work seems to have produced highly complex and creative works, while the abandonment of forms has resulted in the simplification and banalization of some contemporary classical music. Yes, this goes against the commonly held belief that contemporary classical music is difficult.

2. Minimalism: A couple of minutes of it and I feel like I know the composer's entire oeuvre.


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

arcaneholocaust said:


> So, not being a composer or anything, I can't really comment on classical works and say "I would do this differently", etc...
> 
> HOWEVER
> 
> I was just playing the first movement of Mendelssohn's violin concerto...a truly splendid concerto, but...I personally must confess that I think Mendelssohn done goofed. That damn opening theme is possibly the most marvelous thing I've ever heard from Felix...why on earth did he not recapitulate it throughout the concerto or at least the first movement???


Common desire / misunderstanding -- if he had, it would not have the memorable impact which it made upon you. It also makes you, I think, want to hear the entire work again -- one measure of what makes music if not great, not shallow: it offers plenty when hearing it again.

So that is a matter of context -- the brilliant and dramatic gesture, first a surprise and very effective, loses all that impact if repeated.

Too, the idea of varying something so it is not exactly the same when heard again is very much at the root of the classical aesthetic. What you ask of the Mendelssohn is exactly what is delivered, in much briefer format and time, in pop music.


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## EricABQ (Jul 10, 2012)

If I'm being honest, when people talk about the fine differences between pianists performances of certain pieces, I usually have no idea what the hell they are talking about. Unless there are major differences in tempo or something obvious, it all sounds the same to me. If I like the piece, and it is played by a professional class musician, I'm probably going to like it and not really be able to tell the difference between two interpretations.

So, as a result, I base my listening on the sound quality of the recording much more that I base it on who played it.


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## brotagonist (Jul 11, 2013)

violadude said:


> I don't really "pick up" any attitude from his faces or playing gestures.


Neither do I. I listen to CDs :clap:


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## violadude (May 2, 2011)

If I'm being honest, I also am not very fond of cadenzas. Virtuosity is possibly the least interesting aspect of music for me and sometimes I feel like cadenzas are pretty much this boring section that breaks the flow of the music.

I do like the cadenza of Sibelus's violin concerto where the cadenza also acts as a development section.


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## JCarmel (Feb 3, 2013)

I'm not that keen on Cadenzas either. T'is whilst listening to them that I most often lose my place in the musical score!


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## Yardrax (Apr 29, 2013)

brotagonist said:


> 2. Minimalism: A couple of minutes of it and I feel like I know the composer's entire oeuvre.


"I find with a lot of so called minimal music that my ear gets there before the piece does." - Harrison Birtwistle (Quoted from memory)


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## DeepR (Apr 13, 2012)

EricABQ said:


> If I'm being honest, when people talk about the fine differences between pianists performances of certain pieces, I usually have no idea what the hell they are talking about. Unless there are major differences in tempo or something obvious, it all sounds the same to me. If I like the piece, and it is played by a professional class musician, I'm probably going to like it and not really be able to tell the difference between two interpretations.
> 
> So, as a result, I base my listening on the sound quality of the recording much more that I base it on who played it.


What? It all sounds the same!? Pay attention to detail! If they can master it all technically, it's interpretation what sets them apart. I really don't understand this. At a certain point it's all about details.


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## Vesteralen (Jul 14, 2011)

Sometimes I think in my haste to get "with it", I tend to embrace modern music that I _don't actually dislike_.

Whereas, when it comes to music of the pre-1950's, I'm more likely not to praise something that I don't _really love_.

If I applied the same rigorous standards to more modern music that I apply to older stuff, I wonder how much of it would really make the cut?


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## HaydnBearstheClock (Jul 6, 2013)

EricABQ said:


> If I'm being honest, when people talk about the fine differences between pianists performances of certain pieces, I usually have no idea what the hell they are talking about. Unless there are major differences in tempo or something obvious, it all sounds the same to me. If I like the piece, and it is played by a professional class musician, I'm probably going to like it and not really be able to tell the difference between two interpretations.
> 
> So, as a result, I base my listening on the sound quality of the recording much more that I base it on who played it.


I think a good example would be listening to Vladimir Ashkenazy perform Beethoven's Moonlight, Appassionata and Pathétique sonatas and comparing that with other interpreters. The piano in the reocrding alone makes the sound of the sonatas come through differently.


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## ptr (Jan 22, 2013)

If I'm being Honest, I don't really see what all the fuss is about the Steinway D Grand Piano, every time I've made comparisons of the same works played on an Bösendorfer Imperial, I always prefer the timbre (not always the pianist) of the Imperial!








/ptr


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## EricABQ (Jul 10, 2012)

If I'm being honest, I find it much easier to enjoy what is commonly referred to as "atonal" music when it is played on a piano as opposed to a string ensemble or orchestra.


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## Celloman (Sep 30, 2006)

I love listening to opera. That being said, I rarely listen to an entire opera in one sitting (if ever). I try to listen to at least one act at a time, but it can be days or even weeks before I finish the whole opera. I know it's a bad practice, but I can't help it! Gonna have to work on that old attention span...


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## mstar (Aug 14, 2013)

Confessions of a Previously-Expectant-To-This-Type-of-Thread Mstar:

-I'd sooner listen to an opera without seeing it than watch it. I like the music, especially that of La Traviata, but I dislike seeing the opera unless it is live. 
-I've vowed not to use emoticons in this message. While on the subject, this emoticon reminds me of early 20th century composers: :tiphat: Whoops, excluding that emoticon.  And that one. :lol: And that's the last of 'em for this message! (Insert smiley here) 
-I love Rachmaninov, but I secretly listen to Stravinsky when nobody's looking. Shhh!!! 
-I dislike Wagner's music. That just might be the world's most common musical confession. 
-I've never heard a single work by Glazunov that I remember. (Sorry, Huilunsoittaja!) 
-Some years ago, I listened to the Nutcracker (the whole thing) every day for a month. There is no exaggeration. Don't doubt my devotion to Tchaikovsky. <3 
-Though I've played many Mozart sonatas, I find the lack of rebellion in them to be lacking. Beethoven's Fifth Piano Sonata, for example, has some of the oddest switches between related and almost unrelated keys at random moments that I have seen in a piano sonata. I love it! 
-I am currently listening to the greatest of all composers for piano: Fryderyk Szopen (now Chopin). I have a complete collection of his etudes and nocturnes, though not his mazurkas: I have never liked them! 
-I am devoted to piano sonatas, though I almost unfathomably want to express my love for piano concertos by playing one.... I am so close, but yet so far. 
-I am a mini-Argerich in the sense that I love to play things fast, and it even becomes a problem sometimes! Also, I have (almost) the same first name as she does. Aaahhhh! I just put my name on the web? Noo... *groan* It was inevitable....

*Okay, for some deep stuff: *
-I have two works by Mozart in my music folder: the Requiem and a piano sonata. NOTHING ELSE. 
-Debussy is excellent in my opinion. I just don't listen to his works very much.... It is a bit too colorful for me. 
-I have never gotten bored of a single work of classical music. 
-I don't listen to the Baroque Era very much. 
-After months of lurking on the Tchaikovsky Forum, I am now an expert on all things Tchaikovsky. I just have not mustered up enough courage to post. Oh, what if Alexander Poznansky answered? What would I do?!! He's one of the only Tchaikovsky biographers who knows what they are talking about.... That just another reason why I must attend Yale at some point (he's there).... *crying tears* That would be absolutely terrible if one of you is Poznansky and just read that!!! Who knows?.... If you are, HELLO!!!! 
-I haven't said a word about Rachmaninov: I used to always say that "Rachmaninov knows his chords," and I think that he makes the best use of them.

Well, that's some never-before heard information from Little-Argerich. I will now go listen to Chopin's Funeral March. It's next in the playlist, anyway....


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## violadude (May 2, 2011)

EricABQ said:


> If I'm being honest, I find it much easier to enjoy what is commonly referred to as "atonal" music when it is played on a piano as opposed to a string ensemble or orchestra.


Really? I have the opposite problem. I think atonal music is much more enjoyable when there is interaction between different instruments with a variety of timbres.


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