# Mozart's "Voi Che Sapete" and Romantic Irony



## Eva Yojimbo (Jan 30, 2016)

First, the aria, for anyone who somehow hasn't heard it:





This has long been one of my favorite moments from an opera that's full of glorious ones, but I've never really bothered to analyze why beyond the sweet melodicism. However, I was recently thinking about how opera can effectively use music to ironize its situations, so that while characters may be taking something seriously or lightly in the drama, the music itself is telling us something light or serious in opposition. I also thought how often this happens in Mozart. Think of how in Don Giovanni we have Leporello humorous Catalog Aria that is juxtaposed both against the seriousness of Don Elvira's sense of betrayal and the rather gross misogyny that the "catalog" itself represents. Think of how in Cosi fan Tutte we have Mozart setting some of the women's early arias in an opera seria style, that ironizes their out-sized sense of faithfulness and romanticism.

Voi Che Sapete is a bit different, however. At least to my ears, the music seems to present a wonderful equilibrium between mocking the naive sensibility of Cherubino while also, through its sparkling melody, inviting us to share in his feelings. It's a neat trick that allows us see and experience things from both perspectives simultaneously, from the more enlightened, mature perspective in which we view Cherubino's frustration with an amused, even if sympathetic, detachment; but also from Cherubino's perspective as well, as the music is so sweet and enticing that it's impossible not to hear it as an analog to being precisely how love (or lust) at that age feels. It also seems to cut to the heart of many of the opera's themes, how the adults are playing at a more mature game of love and seduction, yet, underneath the surface of sophistication, are as rattled, confused, and driven mad as Cherubino; they're just better at hiding it.

As for romantic irony, there's actually some controversy over what the term means/refers to, but among the ways I've seen it used is to describe art that manages to hold two opposing ideas or perspectives in balance so that an audience can't tell decisively which "side" the artist agrees with. There was an especially good book that analyzed Hitchcock's films under this device, so that's the sense I'm using it in here.

For discussion, I'm curious as to whether, one, people hear the same thing I do in this aria and, two, if you can think of other examples in opera where there might be two different perspectives that the music manages to express simultaneously so that we're not sure which is given precedence.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

It seems to me that we're most likely to find this "dual perspective" in comedy - that, in fact, it's almost a defining characteristic of comedy, where the characters take themselves seriously but the audience is amused, and a great composer will find ways of conveying both sincerity and irony in the same music. Mozart is obviously sklled at this, but I would suggest that Wagner does it brilliantly all through _Die Meistersinger,_ in which human ambitions, passions and foibles are expressed in music both affectionate and satirical, even in the purely orchestral overture.

Great thread, btw!


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

This is a really interesting topic. I prefer the act one aria 'Non so piu' and think that it better encapsulates passionate infatuation with it's short phrases, like small, fast heartbeats. This act one aria is certainly romantically ironic, in that it both is a superb depiction in sound of adolescent infatuation, but also allows us to laugh at the constant amorousness of this youth who falls in love with everything he sees.

Voi che sapete is different, as it is _meant_ to be a song that Cherubino has composed for the Countess. (If it were in a play it would still be sung.) Non so piu is how he feels, the act two aria is how he wants to present those feelings to the Countess and therefore it is more traditional and formal as a piece. The contrast is very telling of Mozart's art. Interestingly the middle section of Voi che is freer and more impassioned as if Cherubino can't help himself let go and wear his feelings on his sleeve even when he should be more subtle in front of a married Lady.

Either way Mozart's settings have a perfection about them.

N.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

'Either way Mozart's settings have a perfection about them.'

Agree with Conte wholeheartedly in his assessments. I remember as a teenager (in days of yore) being smitten by a girl and my reactions being somewhat the same as Cherubino's. Just an incredible example of Mozart's genius at drawing character unmatched imo by any other composer.


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## Larkenfield (Jun 5, 2017)

I’m not hearing what might appear like the portrayal of a comic situation, but more the anguish, pain and bewilderment mixed in with the desire and pleasure of the awakening to love. Others might find it amusing but I don’t think he does. The aria is full of such a complicated mixture and contrast of emotions. Well done Mozart!


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

DavidA said:


> 'Either way Mozart's settings have a perfection about them.'
> 
> Agree with Conte wholeheartedly in his assessments. I remember as a teenager (in days of yore) being smitten by a girl and my reactions being somewhat the same as Cherubino's. Just an incredible example of Mozart's genius at drawing character unmatched imo by any other composer.


Whilst I think that Mozart reached a certain 'perfection' in these two arias doesn't mean that other composers _didn't_ in their works. Handel - in places, Bellini, Rossini, Donizetti, Verdi, Puccini, Wagner, Strauss, Tchaikovsky, Mussorgsky, Britten are all greats and I can't see how one can say that one is greater than all the others, although individual operas are easier to compare. Then their is the issue of personal taste, which is a whole different kettle of fish!

N.


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## amfortas (Jun 15, 2011)

Woodduck said:


> It seems to me that we're most likely to find this "dual perspective" in comedy - that, in fact, it's almost a defining characteristic of comedy, where the characters take themselves seriously but the audience is amused, and a great composer will find ways of conveying both sincerity and irony in the same music.


A good point, though I wonder if we sometimes find a different kind of "dual perspective" in the darkest tragedy, where we can feel tremendous sympathy, even pity for the hero while at the same being horrified and repelled by his actions. Otello, Wozzeck, and Peter Grimes come to mind. Again, I think a great composer finds ways to contribute to that effect.

Not quite the same thing, I know, but for what it's worth . . .


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## Eva Yojimbo (Jan 30, 2016)

Woodduck said:


> It seems to me that we're most likely to find this "dual perspective" in comedy - that, in fact, it's almost a defining characteristic of comedy, where the characters take themselves seriously but the audience is amused, and a great composer will find ways of conveying both sincerity and irony in the same music. Mozart is obviously sklled at this, but I would suggest that Wagner does it brilliantly all through _Die Meistersinger,_ in which human ambitions, passions and foibles are expressed in music both affectionate and satirical, even in the purely orchestral overture.
> 
> Great thread, btw!


As the saying goes, "comedy is tragedy viewed from a distance," and I think when viewing it from a distance it's probably easier to consider (and represent) both perspectives simultaneously; much harder to start from the "up-close" tragedy and be able to pull back to see the comedy. Die Meistersinger is my least favorite of Wagner's mature operas so I've heard it the least; beyond the orchestral overture, would you offer any other specific examples?

Thanks!


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## Eva Yojimbo (Jan 30, 2016)

The Conte said:


> This is a really interesting topic. I prefer the act one aria 'Non so piu' and think that it better encapsulates passionate infatuation with it's short phrases, like small, fast heartbeats. This act one aria is certainly romantically ironic, in that it both is a superb depiction in sound of adolescent infatuation, but also allows us to laugh at the constant amorousness of this youth who falls in love with everything he sees.
> 
> Voi che sapete is different, as it is _meant_ to be a song that Cherubino has composed for the Countess. (If it were in a play it would still be sung.) Non so piu is how he feels, the act two aria is how he wants to present those feelings to the Countess and therefore it is more traditional and formal as a piece. The contrast is very telling of Mozart's art. Interestingly the middle section of Voi che is freer and more impassioned as if Cherubino can't help himself let go and wear his feelings on his sleeve even when he should be more subtle in front of a married Lady.
> 
> ...


Interesting thoughts. My own would be that I hear "Non so piu" as more purely comedic. In a way, the fact that it's representing Cherubino's "actual feelings" is what allows us to view it that way, precisely because it's got such a nervous, anxious energy to it that we're less inclined to (or invited to) identify with it. Perhaps because Voi che sapete is a performance it's easier to tread that middle ground; it's not JUST the feelings but a representation of those feelings, so you have the "truth" of the naive feelings on one end, the "humor" of being able to see that from the perspective of the adults, and the sweetness of the "art" that finds a medium between them.

Of course, that's just how I hear them. As is common, so much of this comes down to our subjective reactions, but I can certainly agree about Mozart's perfection!


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Eva Yojimbo said:


> As the saying goes, "comedy is tragedy viewed from a distance," and I think when viewing it from a distance it's probably easier to consider (and represent) both perspectives simultaneously; much harder to start from the "up-close" tragedy and be able to pull back to see the comedy. Die Meistersinger is my least favorite of Wagner's mature operas so I've heard it the least; beyond the orchestral overture, would you offer any other specific examples?
> 
> Thanks!


It's harder to give examples in Wagner because his musical fabric is so different; there isn't a neatly constructed aria that would present a parallel to Mozart's procedure in "Voi che sapete." The fluctuating emotions and ambivalent, serious/comic perspective unfold over whole scenes, but are focused nicely in the character of Hans Sachs, who is the guiding spirit of the whole plot and whose blend of melancholy pessimism, kindliness, sarcastic wit, humility, respect for tradition and openness to the new constitute a kind of magnetic force field into which the problems of less enlightened souls are drawn, and ultimately resolved for the good of all.


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## marceliotstein (Feb 23, 2019)

Great topic. I also often find hidden easter eggs of irony when I watch operas - the form seems to be a natural for expressing artistic ambiguity.


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## ldiat (Jan 27, 2016)

a "four" like for me!!!


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## Gallus (Feb 8, 2018)

It's describing young love. In retrospect it seems ridiculous, but at the time it's all-consuming. To me, this is the one work in all of art which best describes how that feels. I don't know of any higher praise for this aria than that...


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## Zhdanov (Feb 16, 2016)

Eva Yojimbo said:


> Think of how in Don Giovanni we have Leporello humorous Catalog Aria that is juxtaposed both against the seriousness of Don Elvira's sense of betrayal and the rather gross misogyny that the "catalog" itself represents.


it isn't about misogyny but disdain for ranks in a ranked society and this is gross.


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

Zhdanov said:


> it isn't about misogyny but disdain for ranks in a ranked society and this is gross.


I think Eva's comment is only referring to Don Giovanni's misogyny in that he sees women as only existing in order for him to add them to his list. He is a typical narcissist who can't see women as separate beings, but merely an extension of himself. (Interestingly he treats men in the same way, but that isn't covered in the catalogue aria.)

N.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Zhdanov said:


> it isn't about misogyny but disdain for ranks in a ranked society and this is gross.


The whole point about Don G imo is that is is not about Don G but the characters that revolve around him. The Don only has two arias neither of which add anything to the drama or tell us much about him apart from the fact that he is a psychopathic womaniser. The interest in the opera is the way Mozart / da Ponte develop the characters and their emotions around the Don. Why a recent production at the ROH which focussed on the Don was such a disaster. That is not the point of the opera.


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## Zhdanov (Feb 16, 2016)

The Conte said:


> he sees women as only existing in order for him to add them to his list.


that is not misogyny but rather the opposite.


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## amfortas (Jun 15, 2011)

Zhdanov said:


> that is not misogyny but rather the opposite.


May I write an opera about you?


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

DavidA said:


> The whole point about Don G imo is that is is not about Don G but the characters that revolve around him. The Don only has two arias neither of which add anything to the drama or tell us much about him apart from the fact that he is a psychopathic womaniser. The interest in the opera is the way Mozart / da Ponte develop the characters and their emotions around the Don. Why a recent production at the ROH which focussed on the Don was such a disaster. That is not the point of the opera.


_Don Giovanni_ hasn't attained its almost mythical aura because of the indignant whingeing of the Donnas Anna and Elvira and friends, but because it presents a compellingly realistic portrait of a dangerous sort of human being: a man without character, a predatory sociopath who exults in his power over others.

The power of people without conscience is real; witness the ability of a Donald Trump to attain the highest political office, an achievement made possible by fundamentally fearful and ineffectual people drawn to the projection of power like moths to a flame, hoping either to experience a sense of power vicariously or to be saved from their own anonymity, mediocrity, and failure.

That the Don is psychologically opaque is, paradoxically, a precise psychological characterization; lacking in either introspection or empathy, his "personality" is inaccessible even to him, and so he is a kind of black hole into which others fall. His two arias express perfectly what he has in place of character: a reckless, hedonistic energy, and a smooth, seemingly innocent seductiveness.

The charismatic villain is an archetype, and the added magnetism of sexual attraction makes him irresistible. Without a charismatic singer/actor to project the Don's reptilian fascination (obviously a difficult assignment), the opera is pointless, the posturing and emoting of his victims and their consorts lacking any legitimate focus or _raison d'etre,_ and the final confrontation with the statue even more of a glib _deus ex machina _than it is. (I'd find the opera more interesting if the Don got away with his crimes and the outraged ladies were left to contemplate their own roles as enablers, but perhaps the 18th century wasn't ready for that.)


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## Eva Yojimbo (Jan 30, 2016)

Zhdanov said:


> that is not misogyny but rather the opposite.


Care to elaborate on this? Despite being reluctant to spiral this thread into an unrelated tangent, I'm intrigued to hear an argument for how viewing women merely as sex objects to be conquered isn't only not an example of misogyny, but "rather the opposite."


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## Eva Yojimbo (Jan 30, 2016)

Woodduck said:


> The power of people without conscience is real; witness the ability of a Donald Trump to attain the highest political office, an achievement made possible by fundamentally fearful and ineffectual people drawn to the projection of power like moths to a flame, hoping either to experience a sense of power vicariously or to be saved from their own anonymity, mediocrity, and failure.


Great post, but I feel like this bit could be elaborated on even further. With Trump, it wasn't just the appeal of power to fearful and ineffectual people, but the promise of that power being used _for_ them. Despite being political opposites on issues, Trump and Bernie represented the same thing to many, and that was a figure of change who was willing to fight the powers-that-be for their benefit. Of course, the problem is that we ended up electing the conman rather than the man who actually would've fought for that change. Don G's appeal could be seen as analogous, in his praises and pandering he undoubtedly promised these women something much more exciting and passionate than their own lives, a "change" that they flocked to, only to realize that whatever excitement it brought it also left them without any safety or stability, aimlessly set adrift on the turbulent seas of their emotional aftermath. If only the other "Don" would invite the stone statue to dinner at The White House.


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## Zhdanov (Feb 16, 2016)

Eva Yojimbo said:


> Care to elaborate on this?


well, at least, he kept a count, while other men wouldn't even bother.


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## ldiat (Jan 27, 2016)




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