# Mahler 5 recommendtions to compliment Bersntein's in my collection - ?



## juliante

Hi folks

The first Mahler 5 I had was Rattle's and I did not like it at all. I went away for a bit then came back to M5 with Bernstein and now love this symphony, such that I want a number of versions to enjoy. So I am after Mahler 5 recommendations that would provide a contrast to Bernstein's - a different but also great interpretation. For those of you that have a sufiecient overview.... ! Good quality sound is important to me. Many thanks.


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## Ukko

Do you consider the symphony to properly be an upper? Or should it be a downer?


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## D Smith

You might try Boulez. I admire this performance for its clarity.


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## Pugg

I do like the Karajan, not everyone cup of tea but it's float my boat.


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## Guest

Look also here. http://www.talkclassical.com/13570-best-mahler-5-recording.html


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## juliante

Ukko said:


> Do you consider the symphony to properly be an upper? Or should it be a downer?


Mmm interesting question. Pass - I find Mahler quite bi-polar! And on a personal level, music some people might describe as 'depressing' I often find deeply energising....


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## chesapeake bay

You can check out Tony Duggan's survey of Mahler 5 here: http://www.musicweb-international.com/Mahler/Mahler5.htm

I've found his recommendations to be worth listening to.


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## realdealblues

Bernstein is my favorite when it comes to the 5th, but to get a broad view my recommendations outside of Bernstein would be:

Rudolf Barshai/Junge Deutsche Philharmonie
James Levine/Philadelphia Orchestra
Herbert Von Karajan/Berlin Philharmonic
Michael Gielen/SWR Symphony Orchestra
Klaus Tennstedt/London Philharmonic Orchestra
Markus Stenz/Melbourne Symphony Orchestra
Rafael Kubelik/Bavarian Radio Symphony Orchestra

All are in very good to excellent stereo sound per your request.


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## SixFootScowl

realdealblues said:


> Bernstein is my favorite when it comes to the 5th, but to get a broad view my recommendations outside of Bernstein would be:
> 
> Rudolf Barshai/Junge Deutsche Philharmonie
> James Levine/Philadelphia Orchestra
> Herbert Von Karajan/Berlin Philharmonic
> Michael Gielen/SWR Symphony Orchestra
> Klaus Tennstedt/London Philharmonic Orchestra
> Markus Stenz/Melbourne Symphony Orchestra
> Rafael Kubelik/Bavarian Radio Symphony Orchestra
> 
> All are in very good to excellent stereo sound per your request.


Have you heard Frank Shipway/Royal Philharmonic? That was my first taste of Mahler on CD as I awaited my 1960s Bernstein cycle. Highly regarded by some of the more noteworthy Amazon reviewers.


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## KenOC

Florestan said:


> Have you heard Frank Shipway/Royal Philharmonic? That was my first taste of Mahler on CD as I awaited my 1960s Bernstein cycle. Highly regarded by some of the more noteworthy Amazon reviewers.


I have the Shipway Mahler 5 and think it is quite good. He also recorded an outstanding Shostakovich 10.


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## Fletcher

Florestan said:


> Have you heard Frank Shipway/Royal Philharmonic? That was my first taste of Mahler on CD as I awaited my 1960s Bernstein cycle. Highly regarded by some of the more noteworthy Amazon reviewers.


You've beat me to it with this suggestion Florestan. I stumbled on the Frank Shipway Mahler 5 recording a few months back. The L/R balance of audio may be a bit off putting, but the playing from the - often underrated - RPO is absolutely superb!

When it comes to Mahler's Symphonies, Abbado and in some cases, Sinopoli are my go-to conductors.


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## bz3

I'll second realdeal's mention of Gielen. MTT was pretty good here too if sound quality is paramount, and I've been meaning to get a Tennstedt Mahler 5 for a while now.


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## Polyphemus

indispensible:-

NPO-Barbirolli


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## Polyphemus

Sorry should have added this.


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## Vaneyes

For M5 performance and sound, I like...


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## joen_cph

Just to mention it - there are of course two Bernstein Mahler 5ths, 
the cbs-sony with NYPO and the DG with VPO (probably the one meant here)
https://www.discogs.com/Mahler-Bernstein-New-York-Philharmonic-Symphony-No-5/master/371483
https://www.discogs.com/Mahler-Leonard-Bernstein-Wiener-Philharmoniker-Symphonie-No5/release/1386224

They are quite different from each other though, as seen also from the timings, but sonics are much better in the DG.

I don´t have a real favourite, but Suitner and Kondrashin are among those that are very different from Bernstein´s approach.

In the "historical corner", not really relevant for the OP, but even more contrastful, there are, among others, Mengelberg in the Adagietto only, Walter/VPO _ditto_, and Mahler/piano roll in the 1st movement, Walter/NYPO (1947) and Scherchen/Philadelphia (1964, cuts in the score).


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## Triplets

Pugg said:


> I do like the Karajan, not everyone cup of tea but it's float my boat.


I agree, and since the OP mentioned sound quality as a factor, it is available as a Blu Ray Audio, sounds imply stupendous


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## Merl

Honeck's 5th is beautifully recorded but I find it just misses something (not sure what). I also like Fischer's, Barbirolli's and Chailly's 5ths but pride of my Mahler 5ths goes to Barshai. Wonderful disc (the coupling is equally superb).


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## Triplets

Fletcher said:


> You've beat me to it with this suggestion Florestan. I stumbled on the Frank Shipway Mahler 5 recording a few months back. The L/R balance of audio may be a bit off putting, but the playing from the - often underrated - RPO is absolutely superb!
> 
> When it comes to Mahler's Symphonies, Abbado and in some cases, Sinopoli are my go-to conductors.
> 
> View attachment 87629


I haven't heard the one you cite, but the Abbado/Lucerne is wonderful.
The OP mentioned sound quality. Both the Bernsteins sound pretty good in their current digital reincarnations. However, the 2 that I have been listening to the most in recent months are in mono, so the OP may not want to consider them.
The First is the Bruno Walter recording with the NY Phil from 1947. It is available in the Sony Walter/Mahler box and the quality of the remastering is unbelievable. Most of the time you can convince yourself that this is a stereo recording, there is virtually no shellac noise or tape hiss.
The other mono 5th is Jascha Horenstein and the Berlin Phil on Pristine, a Concert broadcast. This is a bit more compromised sonically (1961 mono aircheck), with a fair amount of audience noise, but if you value Horenstein's way with Mahler, you must hear it


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## Merl

Bertini's Fifth from his full cycle is also rather good.


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## Johnnie Burgess

Florestan said:


> Have you heard Frank Shipway/Royal Philharmonic? That was my first taste of Mahler on CD as I awaited my 1960s Bernstein cycle. Highly regarded by some of the more noteworthy Amazon reviewers.


Shipway's recording was good. It is not the best one for it in my opinion. But it is enjoyable.


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## juliante

Triplets said:


> I haven't heard the one you cite, but the Abbado/Lucerne is wonderful.
> The OP mentioned sound quality. Both the Bernsteins sound pretty good in their current digital reincarnations. However, the 2 that I have been listening to the most in recent months are in mono, so the OP may not want to consider them.
> The First is the Bruno Walter recording with the NY Phil from 1947. It is available in the Sony Walter/Mahler box and the quality of the remastering is unbelievable. Most of the time you can convince yourself that this is a stereo recording, there is virtually no shellac noise or tape hiss.
> The other mono 5th is Jascha Horenstein and the Berlin Phil on Pristine, a Concert broadcast. This is a bit more compromised sonically (1961 mono aircheck), with a fair amount of audience noise, but if you value Horenstein's way with Mahler, you must hear it


Maybe I should let go of quality sound requirement...thanks. I am always after immersion in the music and feel old recording compromise this...


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## Johnnie Burgess

Václav Neumann what do anyone think about his Mahler Symphony # 5.


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## Becca

I have not heard the Boulez recording but I have attended a Los Angeles Philharmonic concert where he did the 5th and while it was nice, it was a bit underwhelming. At the opposite end of the scale was a live Solti / Chicago Symphony concert in the early 1970s which was echt-Solti. I tend to prefer more of a middle ground leaning slightly towards the emotional so of recordings, the Barbirolli is still my favorite.

As an interesting aside, Otto Klemperer never liked the 5th which supposedly is the reason that Barbirolli was allowed to record it with Klemperer's orchestra!


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## corndogshuffle

I like Chailly and the Royal Concertgebouw. The picture was much smaller than I expected it to be.


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## Pugg

corndogshuffle said:


> I like Chailly and the Royal Concertgebouw. The picture was much smaller than I expected it to be.
> 
> View attachment 87667











You can edit your post .

Edit: Fixed for you.


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## corndogshuffle

Pugg said:


> You can edit your post .


Oh I did, originally it was just the picture. :lol:


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## Merl

Johnnie Burgess said:


> Václav Neumann what do anyone think about his Mahler Symphony # 5.
> 
> View attachment 87652


I like Neumann (an equal amount don't). People say his style is 'stiff' but I like it most of the time. His Mahler 5 is one time that his style doesn't particularly work for me. I've still not heard all his Mahler cycle but I'll get round to it soon. I really rate him in Czech repertoire (aided by the wonderful Czech PO) but again Supraphon recordings aren't for everyone.


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## WaterRat

Merl said:


> Honeck's 5th is beautifully recorded but I find it just misses something (not sure what). I also like Fischer's, Barbirolli's and Chailly's 5ths but pride of my Mahler 5ths goes to Barshai. Wonderful disc (the coupling is equally superb).


Barshai comes on top for me, too.

I was familiar with the Barbirolli, the Wiener Phil Bernstein, and the Chicago Abbado, but the symphony didn't reach the heights of top-shelf Mahler symphonies until I heard the Barshai.


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## Johnnie Burgess

WaterRat said:


> Barshai comes on top for me, too.
> 
> I was familiar with the Barbirolli, the Wiener Phil Bernstein, and the Chicago Abbado, but the symphony didn't reach the heights of top-shelf Mahler symphonies until I heard the Barshai.


Barshai's number 5 of Mahler is very good. But the field for Mahler 5 is very crowded.


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## SixFootScowl

Johnnie Burgess said:


> Barshai's number 5 of Mahler is very good. But the field for Mahler 5 is very crowded.


I wonder if anyone has done a spreadsheet with all the different composers who have recorded Mahler symphonies in the rows and the symphonies in the columns, then see which symphony is the most recorded. I would guess either 1 or 5. Muti has only done #1, but I read somewhere that he may record #4--perhaps, or an aspiration that never comes to fruition.


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## Johnnie Burgess

Florestan said:


> I wonder if anyone has done a spreadsheet with all the different composers who have recorded Mahler symphonies in the rows and the symphonies in the columns, then see which symphony is the most recorded. I would guess either 1 or 5. Muti has only done #1, but I read somewhere that he may record #4--perhaps, or an aspiration that never comes to fruition.


Here is him doing Mahler 4 on youtube:


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## SixFootScowl

Johnnie Burgess said:


> Here is him doing Mahler 4 on youtube:


I did see that, but no CD release--yet.


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## Johnnie Burgess

Florestan said:


> I wonder if anyone has done a spreadsheet with all the different composers who have recorded Mahler symphonies in the rows and the symphonies in the columns, then see which symphony is the most recorded. I would guess either 1 or 5. Muti has only done #1, but I read somewhere that he may record #4--perhaps, or an aspiration that never comes to fruition.


He did Number 5:

Gustav Mahler Symphony No. 5, Riccardo Chailly, Gewandhaus Orchestra Leipzig









https://www.amazon.com/Symphony-Riccardo-Chailly-Gewandhaus-Orchestra/dp/B00JAAOU98


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## Becca

This thread prompted me to look into a few other recordings of the 5th starting with the commercial Tennstedt/LPO. While I am quite impressed with it, I do have one BIG gripe... Leonard Bernstein has been quoted as saying the you can't exaggerate Mahler enough ... which is nonsense and a perfect example is the extremes to which contemporary conductors have stretched the adagietto movement of the 5th. Yes it does say 'sehr langsam', but get real, this is marked as 'adagietto' not 'adagio con molto', the slow is relative to the primary indication and 11.55" is waaaay slow. By way of comparison, the Barbirolli is 9.52" and the Barshai is 8.16" !!!


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## Pugg

Florestan said:


> I did see that, but no CD release--yet.


Never to come, has to do with copyrights .


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## Johnnie Burgess

Pugg said:


> Never to come, has to do with copyrights .


That is too bad. Some company sitting on it and not letting people hear it on cd.


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## juliante

Johnnie Burgess said:


> Barshai's number 5 of Mahler is very good. But the field for Mahler 5 is very crowded.


Yes - I am beginning to realise that now! From the responses so far I have whittled things down to looking into: Chailly, Karajan, Barborolli (how old will these be...?), Haitink and Barshai.


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## Johnnie Burgess

Barshai recorded his in 1999 and was live.


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## Orfeo

Johnnie Burgess said:


> That is too bad. Some company sitting on it and not letting people hear it on cd.


It is too bad. Horenstein himself did off-air recordings of the work, which are still in archives in London. I would love to hear his take on the score.


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## Johnnie Burgess

Orfeo said:


> It is too bad. Horenstein himself did off-air recordings of the work, which are still in archives in London. I would love to hear his take on the score.


You can go to London and can hear it at the sound archive.


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## howlingfantods

Orfeo said:


> It is too bad. Horenstein himself did off-air recordings of the work, which are still in archives in London. I would love to hear his take on the score.


Here: https://www.pristineclassical.com/pasc416.html

I picked this up a couple of weeks ago myself. Fantastic.


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## Johnnie Burgess

Johnnie Burgess said:


> You can go to London and can hear it at the sound archive.


The one is the sound archive is his recording of the 5th with the London Symphony Orchestra.


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## howlingfantods

Johnnie Burgess said:


> The one is the sound archive is his recording of the 5th with the London Symphony Orchestra.


The one I linked to on Pristine isn't that one--it's a 1961 recording of Horenstein with the Berlin Phil, at the Edinburgh Festival. Kind of dim sound and a couple of flubs from the band, but a great performance. The Pristine website has a review from a contemporaneous critic from the Edinburgh Evening News talking about how the good taste of the Berlin Phil saved the 5th from it's "intrinsic vulgarity" :lol:


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## Johnnie Burgess

howlingfantods said:


> The one I linked to on Pristine isn't that one--it's a 1961 recording of Horenstein with the Berlin Phil, at the Edinburgh Festival. Kind of dim sound and a couple of flubs from the band, but a great performance. The Pristine website has a review from a contemporaneous critic from the Edinburgh Evening News talking about how the good taste of the Berlin Phil saved the 5th from it's "intrinsic vulgarity" :lol:


There are 3 recordings of it by him. There is another with the Gothenberg Symphony Orchestra.


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## Alfacharger

Becca said:


> This thread prompted me to look into a few other recordings of the 5th starting with the commercial Tennstedt/LPO. While I am quite impressed with it, I do have one BIG gripe... Leonard Bernstein has been quoted as saying the you can't exaggerate Mahler enough ... which is nonsense and a perfect example is the extremes to which contemporary conductors have stretched the adagietto movement of the 5th. Yes it does say 'sehr langsam', but get real, this is marked as 'adagietto' not 'adagio con molto', the slow is relative to the primary indication and 11.55" is waaaay slow. By way of comparison, the Barbirolli is 9.52" and the Barshai is 8.16" !!!


The Zander #5 adagietto clocks in at 8.38 and the performance of the whole symphony is outstanding. In the second "discussion" disc, Zander goes into detail on why the adagietto should be played at around 9 minutes.


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## Scarr

Always liked the Gatti on Conifer.


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## Scarr

Becca said:


> This thread prompted me to look into a few other recordings of the 5th starting with the commercial Tennstedt/LPO. While I am quite impressed with it, I do have one BIG gripe... Leonard Bernstein has been quoted as saying the you can't exaggerate Mahler enough ... which is nonsense and a perfect example is the extremes to which contemporary conductors have stretched the adagietto movement of the 5th. Yes it does say 'sehr langsam', but get real, this is marked as 'adagietto' not 'adagio con molto', the slow is relative to the primary indication and 11.55" is waaaay slow. By way of comparison, the Barbirolli is 9.52" and the Barshai is 8.16" !!!


It's interesting contrasting the speed and vitality of his early New York recordings with some of his later performances. I have a Pathetique which seems to last forever. In the end he has those glorious earlier recordings. An exciting third, the white hot sixth and my favourite Das Lied with King and Fischer-Dieskau.


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## crispi

My new favourite is Abbado’s 1993 disc with the Berliner Philharmoniker. It has a wonderful drive, yet all of the lyrical elements are perfectly shaped out. Plus, the sound is great, too. My previous favourites were Barbirolli’s (a bit slow, but with a lot of feeling) and Solti’s (great brass). Honourable mention: Karajan.


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## Heck148

Both Soltis are outstanding. 1970, 1990s live from Vienna. The Abbado/CSO on DG may be the best of all...splendidly played and recorded...


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## Konsgaard

My suggestions:

1st choice: Barshai
2nd: Karajan
3rd: Jansons/Bavarian RSO or Abbado/BPO


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## MarkW

Absolutely no one will mention this, so I will.  Back in the mid-'60s, virtually the only contemporaneous antidote to Bernstein's new and hypercharged recording was a 1965 issue by Leinsdorf and the BSO -- which still holds up a lot better than you might think. (Excepting the orchestra's horrible, nasally first trumpet.)


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## Larkenfield

Barbirolli’s 5th is a winner with the most deeply sublime slow movement I’ve heard. If one gets hooked on the composer, who collects just one 5th Symphony anyway? There are many good ones out there, but I wouldn’t include Karajan’s as being among them, or his bombastic 6th with the BPO. I never thought he understood the composer until he did the 9th, and it still wasn’t as good as the Walter 9th with the CSO. Walter knew Mahler personally and IMO it shows. When Karajan was in Germany during the War, Mahler was forbidden to be played and the conductor had to make up for lost time afterward. At least he tried whether sincere or not. But Barbirolli’s had a feel for Mahler from the very beginning, And his 6th Symphony recordings are also outstanding with the middle two movement in the order of Adagio-Scherzo as Mahler had instructed his publisher in the revised edition.


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## Kollwitz

Another vote for Barshai here. I really like his handling of the scherzo and adagietto, with the former slower than most recordings, but utterly compelling in its rhythms, and the latter quicker. The ending is also very satisfying. The whole thing is thrilling and intense without being overblown. It's the recording I learnt the work from and have listened to most, so my feeling of its 'rightness' may be clouded by that. Still always satisfies when I return to it though.

Karajan's reckless abandon in the first movement is thrilling but for me, the whole thing doesn't hang together as well as Barshai, Shipway, Barbirolli, Walter or Chailly.

Wyn Morris (available on youtube) is worth a listen if you like the idea of expansive and overblown in all movements but the adagietto, where he's swift.


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## Heck148

MarkW said:


> Absolutely no one will mention this, so I will.  Back in the mid-'60s, virtually the only contemporaneous antidote to Bernstein's new and hypercharged recording was a 1965 issue by Leinsdorf and the BSO -- which still holds up a lot better than you might think. (Excepting the orchestra's horrible, nasally first trumpet.)


That Leinsdorf/BSO version is/was a real turkey....the principal trumpet [Voisin] is unlistenable for me....and the rest of the brass not much better...the wobbly, wah-wah style of trombone I [Gibson]...no thanks...

I heard this recording while driving in the early days of CDs, tuned in while in progress...thought I was listening to some regional orchestra broadcast tape on a bad day...then the excessively bright, nasal trumpet came blatting in....quickly IDing the recording...I couldn't believe they actually released it on CD!!..


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## MarkW

Heck148 said:


> That Leinsdorf/BSO version is/was a real turkey....the principal trumpet [Voisin] is unlistenable for me....and the rest of the brass not much better...the wobbly, wah-wah style of trombone I [Gibson]...no thanks...
> 
> I heard this recording while driving in the early days of CDs, tuned in while in progress...thought I was listening to some regional orchestra broadcast tape on a bad day...then the excessively bright, nasal trumpet came blatting in....quickly IDing the recording...I couldn't believe they actually released it on CD!!..


No problem. I agree with many of your criticisms, but still think the interpretation itself to be not bad.


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## Larkenfield

[SUB][/SUB]The opening of the 1st movement of the 5th is marked _Trauermarsch_ (Funeral march). Then, _In gemessenem Schritt. Streng. Wie ein Kondukt _ (At a measured pace. Strict. Like a funeral procession.) This suggests that the opening trumpet solo is supposed to sound more like a bugle rather than a symphonic trumpet and is played with more of a hollow "nasal" sound in mind. It frequently sounds that way on recordings, perhaps deliberately so, since it's the only instrument playing like at a funeral march... It's one of the ways the long 24-bar solo can be interpreted.


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## chalkpie

Bernstein (DG)
Bernstein (NYP)
Chailly
Gielen
Boulez
Barshai
MTT
Barenboim
Bertini

I like these!


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