# For Wagner Opera lovers, Why do you LOVE Wagners operas?..........................



## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

This thread is for Wagner opera lovers.

For me they're just so rich in melody, ideas, passion.
The more I listen, the more I hear, and the more I love the
sweep and grandeur of them. 

Why do you love them.


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## Revenant (Aug 27, 2013)

I love them but don't know why.


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

I always hear new things.
I never tire of them.
I can go from Dutchman to Parsifal and 
always be amazed.


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

You can simply get lost in them, let the music wash over you in waves of passion, the inexhaustible endless melody lights your soul on fire as you drink the intoxicating harmony.


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## tdc (Jan 17, 2011)

Well composed, well orchestrated music full of depth, rich, unique harmonies and intricate subtleties. I like the passion in the singing and the intensity of the music and drama. I am also interested in the kind of mythological material Wagner was often drawn to.


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## Oreb (Aug 8, 2013)

Great question, but one that I can't do justice to!

It's the glorious richness of melody,

the astounding insights into human nature that every one of his mature operas shows,

the extraordinary depth of composition - such that I know I will always be hearing something new, every time I listen,

the narrative intensity,

but for me, perhaps the most significant thing is the intimacy of the music. I know Wagner has this reputation of bombast and SCALE, but IMO that's only among people who haven't actually listened to him. Sure, he has the Big Scenes, the spectacle (and he does them bloody well) but in all his works the greatest scenes IMO are the small scale intimate ones, often with only two to three singers, or a sustained single line of melody (like the cello's meditation when Sieglinde fetches Siegmund water - exquisite, intimate, sensitive, miles away from the silly stereotype)


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## Reichstag aus LICHT (Oct 25, 2010)

I'd echo all the reasons given so far, and add that Wagner manages to create unique sound-worlds for each of his works. The _Ring_ as a whole occupies its own universe, but even within the tetralogy each opera has its own distinct "flavour". Quite remarkable, given Wagner's mature technique relies heavily on the reuse and extension of basically the same melodic material.


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## Celloman (Sep 30, 2006)

I finished the first act of _Die Meistersinger_ about half an hour ago. I can't explain it. Listening to an entire act of Wagner in one sitting is a unique experience. The music never stops, it just keeps going until the end of the act. Wagner is a master of time. An hour and a half of music flows like honey. It's terribly addicting. And the incredible feeling I get when it's over...there's nothing quite like it.


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## ericdxx (Jul 7, 2013)

Wagner has 
the best opening scenes in all of opera
the best orchestrations in all of opera 
the best big leitmotives/themes


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

The best act endings in all of opera.


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## SiegendesLicht (Mar 4, 2012)

I have mentioned most of the reasons I love Wagner in this post: http://www.talkclassical.com/27565-do-you-like-wagner-4.html#post518168 , but I'd like to add a couple of points:

- precisely that stereotypical powerful and epic feel, that some people find off-putting. I used to look for that inspiring combination of melodiousness and power in the music of Manowar, Therion and other suchlike heavy-, power- and sympho-metal bands, but here this feel is refined and elevated to a higher plane. And this music does not rely on amplification or other artificial means to get it across;

- that which, I guess, one might call Wagner's idealism, probably not exclusive to Wagner, but very prominent in his music dramas, whether it is the Grail Knights devoted to inner purification and serving the world through their deeds, or Lohengrin and the Dutchman looking for unfailing loyalty in their beloved, or the idealized primeval world around the Rhine, whose peace was destroyed by greed and restored by Brünnhilde's self-sacrifice;

- the unabashed celebration of Germanness in an age when such sentiment comes across as suspicious in the least (I mean our age of course, not Wagner's own), both explicit in Wagner's writings, sometimes in the opera texts and implicit in Wagner's choice of plots and sources of inspiration (even for _Tristan und Isolde_ whose story originally belongs to the British Arthurian mythos, Wagner drew on a later medieval German retelling). Wagner's art is rooted in levels of history and culture that are far older than Wagner himself and thus it stands in sharp opposition to the rootless, globalized "McCulture" of modernity.


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## Aramis (Mar 1, 2009)

> I used to look for that inspiring combination of melodiousness and power in the music of Manowar, Therion and other suchlike heavy-, power- and sympho-metal bands


I wouldn't confess if I were you.


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## deggial (Jan 20, 2013)

SiegendesLicht said:


> I used to look for that inspiring combination of melodiousness and power in the music of Manowar, *Therion*


obviously Therion rocks


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## Revenant (Aug 27, 2013)

No one better mention Yanni or Enya.


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## SiegendesLicht (Mar 4, 2012)

Oh, come on, we were all ignorant back in the day.


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## Aramis (Mar 1, 2009)

Revenant said:


> No one better mention Yanni or Enya.


Somebody better explain to me why do I see "Itullian and Itullian like this" under that post. Double like?


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## Revenant (Aug 27, 2013)

Aramis said:


> Somebody better explain to me why do I see "Itullian and Itullian like this" under that post. Double like?


"The post so nice, Itullian liked it twice." Either that or there are two Itullians. Or there's a glitch in the system.


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

Revenant said:


> "The post so nice, Itullian liked it twice." Either that or there are two Itullians. Or there's a glitch in the system.


There can only be one Itullian.


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## Revenant (Aug 27, 2013)

Itullian said:


> There can only be one Itullian.


That narrows it down a bit.


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## SiegendesLicht (Mar 4, 2012)

At the risk of repeating myself (since I have said the same thing in the other Wagner-love thread) if this was a thread about Wagner and the Jews, it would have already been at least ten pages long, instead of just one and a half.


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## quack (Oct 13, 2011)

Don't let that stop you, there's still time to turn it into a Wagner and the Jews thread. Maybe you could complain about people who insist on mentioning the Jews in a Wagner thread whether it is relevant or not.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Let's face it, to me, Wagner and his music are not particularly loveable. I can admire it, get excited by it and even enthralled by it. But love it in the same way as you love Mozart or Schubert or Bach or Beethoven - no chance!


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## gellio (Nov 7, 2013)

Couchie said:


> You can simply get lost in them, let the music wash over you in waves of passion, the inexhaustible endless melody lights your soul on fire as you drink the intoxicating harmony.


I couldn't have said it better.


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## gellio (Nov 7, 2013)

DavidA said:


> Let's face it, to me, Wagner and his music are not particularly loveable. I can admire it, get excited by it and even enthralled by it. But love it in the same way as you love Mozart or Schubert or Bach or Beethoven - no chance!


Mozart and Beethoven are my favorite composers, but I love Wagner just as much. How can one not love the 
Liebestod and the Magic Fire Music as much as anything by any other composer?


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## ericdxx (Jul 7, 2013)

DavidA said:


> Let's face it, to me, Wagner and his music are not particularly loveable. I can admire it, get excited by it and even enthralled by it. But love it in the same way as you love Mozart or Schubert or Bach or Beethoven - no chance!


What? Wagner is testosterone filled, macho man's music, mainly. But we are guys are we not, so what's your problem with that?


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## SiegendesLicht (Mar 4, 2012)

ericdxx said:


> What? Wagner is testosterone filled, macho man's music, mainly. But we are guys are we not, so what's your problem with that?


Hey, I am a girl, and I love Wagner's musical machismo too. The orchestral interlude at the beginning of Lohengrin, Act III, Scene 3 - music does not get manlier than that.

I adore Schubert and Beethoven, I love Bach and Mozart, but no other music resounds in me with its every note as powerfully as Wagner's. I remember days when I listened to "Die Meistersinger" after a particularly tiring day at work. I can describe my feelings only as being drunk on music.


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## Aramis (Mar 1, 2009)




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## Jobis (Jun 13, 2013)

Its passionate without being the least bit overwrought, its simple without being dull, its complicated without being convoluted, it's wonderful!!!!!


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

ericdxx said:


> What? Wagner is testosterone filled, macho man's music, mainly. But we are guys are we not, so what's your problem with that?


No problem. Just I don't love it. Why should I? The music deals with totally unloveable characters anyway. I mean, who could love a character like Siegfried. The only person to fall in love with him was his aunt!


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Jobis said:


> Its passionate without being the least bit overwrought, its simple without being dull, its complicated without being convoluted, it's wonderful!!!!!


Do you listen to the same Wagner I listen to. The expressions 'not the least bit overwrought' and 'simple' are not the expressions O would apply to the music.


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## Copperears (Nov 10, 2013)

Well compared to, say, "Dexter" ..... Now THAT is overwrought.:tiphat:


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## Don Fatale (Aug 31, 2009)

Primarily it's the orchestration which is astonishing at many points. With the Ring in particular, getting to know the music and the leitmotifs gives great pleasure on multiple listens over the years. It took me longer to really love the singing and I still find some of the passages too long and unengaging. However it makes for a fascinating experience in comparing the different voices and performances in my record/DVD collections.

Much as I enjoy watching DVDs, nothing is comparable to being at a good live performance and getting the ultimate culture fix. To feel enveloped by the sound of a Wagner orchestra over several hours is better than pretty much anything except intimate relations... and even that is arguable.


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## Jobis (Jun 13, 2013)

DavidA said:


> Do you listen to the same Wagner I listen to. The expressions 'not the least bit overwrought' and 'simple' are not the expressions O would apply to the music.


Its certainly complex and emotional, but not to the point of being self-indulgent, that was the point I was trying to make with the 'not the least bit overwrought' which I see as a rather negative term. I think there is plenty of simplicity in his music, even if it is on such a grand scale. The beginning of the prelude to Rheingold for example with its endless arpeggios and lack of modulations, or the prelude for Parsifal. The motifs are in themselves simple but they command attention. The complexity comes from the manipulations of these motifs, the structure of his music and the orchestration.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Of course the vocal music is often stunning, but some of the most thrilling parts in Wagner are purely orchestral:.the opening to Act 11 Walkure just before the Hojotoho, the rapidly building music just before when Tristan Isolde meet at the beginning of the Love Duet, The bit in Siegfried leading up to Wotan meeting with Erda, the end of the Ring, etc.


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## Aramis (Mar 1, 2009)

Seattleoperafan said:


> the opening to Act 11 Walkure


I see that new division for acts has been applied to Wagner works, to fit their lenght.


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## Flamme (Dec 30, 2012)

Go well with sausages and german wine?


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## Orfeo (Nov 14, 2013)

For me it's simple. Wagner is the best storyteller in the history of opera. Plus, he has the most keen ability to get into the psychology of human nature (much like Tchaikovsky and Massenet). His music transcends even the man himself.


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## ahammel (Oct 10, 2012)

Jobis said:


> Its certainly complex and emotional, but not to the point of being self-indulgent, that was the point I was trying to make with the 'not the least bit overwrought' which I see as a rather negative term. I think there is plenty of simplicity in his music, even if it is on such a grand scale. The beginning of the prelude to Rheingold for example with its endless arpeggios and lack of modulations, or the prelude for Parsifal. The motifs are in themselves simple but they command attention. The complexity comes from the manipulations of these motifs, the structure of his music and the orchestration.


I've been thinking about this aspect of Wagner, actually. I don't think it's that the music is simple, it's just that Wagner has the ability to put his musical ideas at the fore. I hear the same thing in Mozart: regardless of how complicated the music is on the page, it's always very transparent. Nobody ever asks "what is he driving at here?"


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## TxllxT (Mar 2, 2011)

A question (I don't know the answer) for Wagner lovers: you all will probably recognize the guy on the right, but who is the person on the left? This photo was taken in the Czech Spa resort Teplice, who was boasting this year the 200 year anniversary of Ludwig van Beethoven staying & composing here.


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

My guess is Schopenhauer.


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

Schopenhauer didn't have a beard


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## Aramis (Mar 1, 2009)

Looks vaguely like C. Franck.


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## TxllxT (Mar 2, 2011)

Wagner began composing the music of Tannhäuser during a vacation in Teplitz / Teplice in the summer of 1843, so there is the link between Wagner and this Spa. But when did César Franck visit Teplice? Perhaps the house owner just loved the Wagnerian style of Franck...


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## Oreb (Aug 8, 2013)

mamascarlatti said:


> Schopenhauer didn't have a beard


 He was going to grow one but then thought "If I want a beard then I am wanting something so I won't."

But then he thought "Oh bugger! That means I want to not want something!"

And then he thought "Oh no - I'm getting worked up about that as well. Will this endless willing never end?"

Then he got worried about worrying about willing.

By which time he had forgotten to shave his sideburns:


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