# The worst operas in history



## AlanPalgut (Apr 11, 2012)

I've been reading a book called _Skeletons from the Opera Closet_ and I find one section about opera's biggest failures interesting. The following operas are listed with my descriptions in a nutshell:


_Montezuma_ (1964) by Roger Sessions: No composer has successfully written an opera about the fall of the Aztecs. Sessions is no exception to this.
_Adriana Lecouvreur_ (1902) by Francesco Cilèa: Mlle. Lecouvreur never did this trashy verismo opera.
_Lily_ (1977) by Leon Kirchner: the composer's first opera turned out to be his last because the masses walked out very quickly.
_Akhnaten_ [sic] (1984) by Philip Glass: Minimalism is too boring for opera.
_Giovanna d'Arco_ (1845) by Giuseppe Verdi (mind you, this was before _Rigoletto_): Joan must carry her own matches here. Also, you might be asking: What happened to the stake?
_Antony and Cleopatra_ (1966, revised 1975) by Samuel Barber: For an Egyptian opera, it looks like we're stuck forever with _Aida_.
_Alfonso und Estrella_ (composed 1821-1822, premièred 1854) by Franz Schubert: why the King of Lieder sucks at opera.
_Mitridate_, K87 (1770) by Johann Aurelius Wolfgang Amadeus Hans Christian Mozart: One solo aria follows another… several times in an unbroken row.
_Mona_ (1912) by Dr. Horatio Parker: or _Norma_ meets _Tristan und Isolde_. How screwed up is that?



List the worst operas in your opinion here.


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## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

lol i love it - an opera about the fall of the aztecs! Not that I can't imagine why you'd want to do it, it's a namazing topic.

Have to say, Adriana Lecouvreur is, if not on my list of favorites, one I would happily see at any reputable house. I've got a DVD, and I saw a concert version recently, so I know there's some very engaging music in it.

worst operas - how do you tell which is worst without getting involved in whether or not you personally have failed to appreciate something wonderful? but anyway, here goes:

1) the Met's Rheingold
2) the Met's Flying Dutchman (starting to see a pattern here?)
3) Pelleas et Melisande
4) City of the Dead (that may not be the exact title, it's based on the dostoevsky memoir I think)
5) 

no, can't get up over 4. Just trying to think up performances I've seen that my backside can still remember the seat of the chair. If it's that painful - bad opera.


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

I love _Akhnaten_


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## NightHawk (Nov 3, 2011)

And I love _Pelleas et Melisande_.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

Think no further than* August Bungert *(late 19th century German composer). Basically, he did bad Wagner rehash and even wanted to build a copy of Bayreuth opera house in another part of Germany.

Wikipedia article here - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/August_Bungert

His operas sound to be of not much aesthetic value, put it that way. However, his chamber music was highly regarded by the likes of Brahms, so it sounds like there might be something in his output that is worth listening to.


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## crmoorhead (Apr 6, 2011)

AlanPalgut said:


> _Antony and Cleopatra_ (1966, revised 1975) by Samuel Barber: For an Egyptian opera, it looks like we're stuck forever with _Aida_.


I am an unashamed Barber fan, so I'm still convinced that the colossal failure of this opera was down to bad luck. From what I can tell, there were bad choices made all over the place. It shook Barber's confidence so badly that he barely composed anything afterwards.

My nomination for the silliest opera is Menotti's "Help! Help! It's the Globolinks!". An opera about space invaders! I haven't heard it, however, so maybe it is pretty good?  



> Mitridate, K87 (1770) by Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart: One solo aria follows another… several times in an unbroken row.


Lol, by my calculations he was 13 when he wrote this?


> 4) City of the Dead (that may not be the exact title, it's based on the dostoevsky memoir I think)


Is this Die Tote Stadt by Korngold? I watched this on recommendation of this forum and rather liked it.  I like gloomy plotlines. It is based on a novel called Bruges-la-morte.


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## StlukesguildOhio (Dec 25, 2006)

Personally I like Phillip Glass' operas. I also like _Pelleas et Melisande_ and _Die Tote Stadt_. How could you possibly hate an opera with this aria:






And this was no "one hit wonder" of an opera:






As for Mozart's _Mitridate_... well it's certainly no _Don Giovanni_... but then again, how many here might have done better at 14 years old?


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## AlanPalgut (Apr 11, 2012)

Yes, Mozart was fourteen going on fifteen when he composed _Mitridate_, and he had written a few rather short operas before it.


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## HarpsichordConcerto (Jan 1, 2010)

AlanPalgut said:


> [*]_Mitridate_, K87 (1770) by Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart: One solo aria follows another… several times in an unbroken row.


 Have you listened to Baroque operas and other early Classical operas that don't often have "one solo aria follows another"? Do you dismiss the entire period, too?


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## AlanPalgut (Apr 11, 2012)

No. By the way, I've slightly overstated my description of _Mitridate_, but I stand very firmly; practically every number in the opera, except the final ensembles of Acts II and III, is indeed a solo aria.


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

I'm just glad no one has mentioned _Le Grand Macabre._


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## HarpsichordConcerto (Jan 1, 2010)

AlanPalgut said:


> No. By the way, I've slightly overstated my description of _Mitridate_, but I stand very firmly; practically every number in the opera, except the final ensembles of Acts II and III, is indeed a solo aria.


Why not? Perhaps I'm not following. You wrote that almost every number of _Mitridate_ is a solo aria, and faults the opera because of that. I then suggested that much of Baroque and early Classical operas follow the recipe of recitative-solo da cap arias precisely as that in _Mitridate_. Thousands of operas.


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## quack (Oct 13, 2011)

guythegreg said:


> 4) City of the Dead (that may not be the exact title, it's based on the dostoevsky memoir I think)


I assume that is Janáček's House of the Dead, set in a Siberian labour camp, not the cheeriest of works and more a series of individual songs united on a theme than an opera.



crmoorhead said:


> My nomination for the silliest opera is Menotti's "Help! Help! It's the Globolinks!". An opera about space invaders! I haven't heard it, however, so maybe it is pretty good?


This sounds awesome, and when I say awesome I mean incredibly terrible, I would certainly love to hear it.

One recent operatic work I hated was Vaughan Williams' The Poisoned Kiss, ridiculous and silly while attempting to say profound things. Not sensible enough to be a comedy, too foolish to say anything significant.


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## crmoorhead (Apr 6, 2011)

quack said:


> I assume that is Janáček's House of the Dead, set in a Siberian labour camp, not the cheeriest of works and more a series of individual songs united on a theme than an opera.


Yes, that's probably the one. That is definitely Dostoevsky.



> This sounds awesome, and when I say awesome I mean incredibly terrible, I would certainly love to hear it.


I came across that while browsing the article on Menotti on wikipedia. You can actually purchase it in DVD:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help,_Help,_the_Globolinks!

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Menotti-Hel...EBTW/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1340283145&sr=8-1


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## Moira (Apr 1, 2012)

Fun thread. The only one I've heard is Mitridate, K87 (1770) by Johann Aurelius Wolfgang Amadeus Hans Christian Mozart. I found it slightly boring, but pretty enough. 

Montezuma by Roger Sessions sounds interesting from the point of view that the Johannesburg Zoo will be opening a huge South and Central American exhibit next year, complete with a fresh water aquarium. When parents threaten to feed their children to the piranhas and the anacondas in the future the children will no longer be able to smugly say that there aren't any in Johannesburg. Actually the zoo people are very excited about this exhibit as it is anticipated that this will be a major attraction. It has been several years in the planning. The building is now built and they are waiting for the glass in the aquarium to settle and the plants to grow ... I digress. Montezuma. Nah! It is unlikely that we will get that here.


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## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

Right, Janacek's "From the House of the Dead."


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## superhorn (Mar 23, 2010)

I saw the PBS telecast of the Chicago Lyric opera's revival of Antony and Cleopatra about 20 years ago and thought it was a terrific opera with some of Barber's best music . The audience reraction was also very enthusiastic.
Alfonso &Estrella may be a nullity from a dramatic point of view, but it contains some very beautiful music .
Back in the LP era, I heard a Philips recording of Vivaldi's opera Tito Manlio , based on an episode of ancient Roman history . It was as long as Die Walkure, and a deadly bore. Just one formulaic Da Capo aria after another.
After hearing it, I felt like Dacapotating myself !
Jullien, the sequel to Gustave Charpentier's opera Louise, was a flop and never entered the repertoire. 
I like Louise, and would be curious to hear it .


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## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

I like Janacek's House of the Dead but maybe it was an advantage for me to read Dostoevsky's book first. If anyone thinks Dostoevsky's labour camp plot is bleak then it's still a veritable guffawfest compared to Solzhenitsyn's Gulag Archipelago...


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## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

You know, it wasn't really that the plot was bleak ... it was that the music did absolutely nothing for me. Some productions will work, others won't, that's just the way it goes. If you're not enjoying the music, I dk, maybe ... try again in a year lol


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## MAuer (Feb 6, 2011)

I'm not sure I'd call _Adriana Lecouvreur _a failure. Historically inaccurate, yes -- but so too are _Don Carlo_, _Un Ballo in __Maschera_ (when the hero is still King Gustav), all three of Donizetti's "Queens" operas, Meyerbeer's _L'Africaine_, and Pacini's _Maria Tudor_, just to name a few. Adriana is pretty much established in the mainstream repertoire (to judge by the number of houses that have been performing it), and it's been recorded several times. I agree that the plot may be a little more soap opera than grand opera . . . but it does have some lovely music.


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## AlanPalgut (Apr 11, 2012)

An opera that falls into this category must be (1) inaccurate, (2) hard to understand and/or (3) easy to bore you.


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

AlanPalgut said:


> An opera that falls into this category must be (1) inaccurate, (2) hard to understand and/or (3) *easy to bore you*.


Much bel canto.


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## Hesoos (Jun 9, 2012)

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> I love _Akhnaten_


I love Akhnaten too.

And Verdi's Giovanna d'Arco is wonderful!!


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## Hesoos (Jun 9, 2012)

Usually I like all the operas I've listened, but the Barroc operas are generally a bit boring for me. These operas I couldn't listen to the end:

Cavalli's Il Giasone 
Jommelli's Didone abbandonata
Haendel's Teseo
Lully's Thésée
Purcell's King Arthur

(Anyway, I like Cavalli's Statira, Haendels's Giulio Cesare and Ottone, Purcell's Dido and Aeneas)


I like Nixon in China and Akhnaten, (especially Akhnaten!) but I didn't try yet the rest of contemporary operas, I think I don't like them. Perhaps in the future I change my mind.


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

Hesoos said:


> I like Nixon in China and Akhnaten, (especially Akhnaten!) but I didn't try yet the rest of contemporary operas, I think I don't like them. Perhaps in the future I change my mind.


YOU'D BETTER CHANGE YOUR MIND NOW BECAUSE THIS IS BLOODY BRILLIANT:






Have a nice day. :tiphat:


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## Hesoos (Jun 9, 2012)

I saw your Le Grand Macabre video, ComposerOfAvantgarde,

For me it's a bit strange, but doesn't sound bad. Sure it is entertaining! I could try with this, thanks!

Whoe!!! Is there an eggman???  
Here in Finland we have one similar:






Sorry, is so funny... hehe hehe:lol:

Thanks, have a nice day, you too!


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## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

Hesoos said:


> I like Nixon in China and Akhnaten, (especially Akhnaten!) but I didn't try yet the rest of contemporary operas, I think I don't like them. Perhaps in the future I change my mind.


OMG I forgot Nixon in China ... that should have been on my list lol. what a CARTOON!! Oh well. different strokes, eh?


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

guythegreg said:


> OMG I forgot Nixon in China ... that should have been on my list lol. what a CARTOON!! Oh well. different strokes, eh?


I don't like your list. Your list is insulting to me because I like those operas.


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## Rangstrom (Sep 24, 2010)

Probably something by Menotti--The Consul would be a front runner, but that sappy Christmas one is a close second. The Leibermann presentation of the Help, Help, the Globolinks is bizarre enough to merit watching once.


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## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

guythegreg said:


> You know, it wasn't really that the plot was bleak ... it was that the music did absolutely nothing for me. Some productions will work, others won't, that's just the way it goes. If you're not enjoying the music, I dk, maybe ... try again in a year lol


Fair enough - if you don't like the music then I suppose it doesn't matter what the plot consists of in this case. From a musical standpoint Janacek's later style seemed to suit the plot of House of the Dead really well. If you have the patience and/or inclination then try the ealier Jenufa assuming you haven't already.


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## AlanPalgut (Apr 11, 2012)

I don't think _Adriana Lecouvreur_ is a failure, but I feel like it is not worth being a favorite opera of mine.


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## superhorn (Mar 23, 2010)

A long forgotten opera by Vivaldi called Motezuma(not Montezuma ) was recently recorded by DG/Archiv
conducted by baroque opera specialist Alan Curtis with singers whose names I don't recall offhand. 
Although I've never been a Vivaldi fan, I would be willing to hear it . A musicologist apparently had to reconstruct the opera because parts of it were missing from the manuscript .


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

Rangstrom said:


> Probably something by Menotti--The Consul would be a front runner, but that sappy Christmas one is a close second. The Leibermann presentation of the Help, Help, the Globolinks is bizarre enough to merit watching once.


I've never heard or seen an opera by Menotti but I have heard from a very high up person in the opera world in my country that he didn't like them. So maybe they aren't that good.


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## TresPicos (Mar 21, 2009)

I went to see Wagner's _Parsifal_ a while ago, and that was a truly mind-numbing experience.

I'm not a big opera fan, but I've seen a few operas before (Eugen Onegin, Der Rosenkavalier etc) and I enjoyed them, so it's not the genre. The orchestra and the singers were great, the music was beautiful and so was the set. There was a translation display so we could understand what they were singing, and the chairs were very comfortable.

So, everything was first-rate except... the opera. It was just too long, too slow and too confusing. There were times when I had some idea of who was on the stage and what they were doing, but they were few and far between.

Each act was accompanied by its own emotion. Act 1: panic, because there were still so many hours left. Act 2: fatigue, as the opera was taking its toll, especially the half-hour long duet between some man and some woman. Act 3: hope and joy, since it was the final act.

At the end, someone met someone else carrying a spear, which was apparently a good thing. They went to some place where lots of unknown men were waiting, probably some sort of secret society, and they used the spear to heal someone so that he could do whatever he was supposed to be doing and then I could go home.


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

TresPicos said:


> I went to see Wagner's _Parsifal_ a while ago, and that was a truly mind-numbing experience.
> 
> I'm not a big opera fan, but I've seen a few operas before (Eugen Onegin, Der Rosenkavalier etc) and I enjoyed them, so it's not the genre. The orchestra and the singers were great, the music was beautiful and so was the set. There was a translation display so we could understand what they were singing, and the chairs were very comfortable.
> 
> ...


I RESENT THAT COMMENT YOU MADE RIGHT THERE  random text


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## crmoorhead (Apr 6, 2011)

> Each act was accompanied by its own emotion. Act 1: panic, because there were still so many hours left. Act 2: fatigue, as the opera was taking its toll, especially the half-hour long duet between some man and some woman. Act 3: hope and joy, since it was the final act.


This made me chuckle, but I guess one must have a LOT of patience for the length of Wagner's operas. An opera shouldn't be confusing as it is taken for granted that you will know the story beforehand.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

Hesoos said:


> Usually I like all the operas I've listened, but the Barroc operas are generally a bit boring for me. These operas I couldn't listen to the end:
> 
> Cavalli's Il Giasone
> Jommelli's Didone abbandonata
> ...


Agreed. One of the main factors with Baroque operas is that the plot is usually the same. People standing around singing about the gods. I don't mind some of the music though, esp. Purcell, who was a composer doing some amazing things on a technical/creative level. Pity the plots of these things where so formulaic and unengaging. However, comic operas of the time do offer me something, I have listened to a number of them on radio, and they are more fun and less pretentious compared to the 'serious' operas of Baroque era.



TresPicos said:


> I went to see Wagner's _Parsifal_ a while ago, and that was a truly mind-numbing experience.
> 
> ....


Agree again. I think Wagner was a great innovator but my appreciation of him stops right there. He basically should have learnt one big thing: EDITING.


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## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> Each act was accompanied by its own emotion. Act 1: panic, because there were still so many hours left. Act 2: fatigue, as the opera was taking its toll, especially the half-hour long duet between some man and some woman. Act 3: hope and joy, since it was the final act.
> 
> At the end, someone met someone else carrying a spear, which was apparently a good thing. They went to some place where lots of unknown men were waiting, probably some sort of secret society, and they used the spear to heal someone so that he could do whatever he was supposed to be doing and then I could go home.]


OMG I thought you were describing something by LIGETI until I got to the end lol ... I mean face it, that sounds like Ligeti, doesn't it? (Sorry GL)


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

guythegreg said:


> OMG I thought you were describing something by LIGETI until I got to the end lol ... I mean face it, that sounds like Ligeti, doesn't it? (Sorry GL)


I love *Ligeti* and I love *Wagner*


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## emiellucifuge (May 26, 2009)

TresPicos said:


> I went to see Wagner's _Parsifal_ a while ago, and that was a truly mind-numbing experience.
> 
> I'm not a big opera fan, but I've seen a few operas before (Eugen Onegin, Der Rosenkavalier etc) and I enjoyed them, so it's not the genre. The orchestra and the singers were great, the music was beautiful and so was the set. There was a translation display so we could understand what they were singing, and the chairs were very comfortable.
> 
> ...


See my review of a recent Parsifal performance, right here; http://www.talkclassical.com/20020-amsterdam-parsifal-review-2012-a.html

In my opinion Parsifal is one of the most emotionally intense, spiritually awesome and philosophically profound artworks ever created.


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## emiellucifuge (May 26, 2009)

Sid James said:


> Agree again. I think Wagner was a great innovator but my appreciation of him stops right there. He basically should have learnt one big thing: EDITING.


I wish they would go on for longer! :tiphat:


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## BeatOven (May 23, 2012)

hmm
Roger Waters Ca Ira


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## BeatOven (May 23, 2012)

the rock opera!


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## Hesoos (Jun 9, 2012)

TresPicos said:


> At the end, someone met someone else carrying a spear, which was apparently a good thing. They went to some place where lots of unknown men were waiting, probably some sort of secret society, and they used the spear to heal someone so that he could do whatever he was supposed to be doing and then I could go home.


this is the funniest synopsis ever!!!:lol:


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## myaskovsky2002 (Oct 3, 2010)

I hate Traviata. I guess I'm the only guy in this world who hates Traviata, because I listened to it so many times. I also dislike the Nurenberg singers (Wagner). No more. 

Martin


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## myaskovsky2002 (Oct 3, 2010)

emiellucifuge said:


> See my review of a recent Parsifal performance, right here; http://www.talkclassical.com/20020-amsterdam-parsifal-review-2012-a.html
> 
> In my opinion Parsifal is one of the most emotionally intense, spiritually awesome and philosophically profound artworks ever created.


I don't agree... of course. This and Tannhäuser are too religious for me.

Martin, Laic


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## myaskovsky2002 (Oct 3, 2010)

StlukesguildOhio said:


> Personally I like Phillip Glass' operas. I also like _Pelleas et Melisande_ and _Die Tote Stadt_. How could you possibly hate an opera with this aria:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I would say, this aria is THE OPERA....all the remaining is...buf. I prefer Das Wunder der Heliane 1,000 times. Also Violanta is beautiful but short.

I'll use also Renée Fleming






Martin


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## myaskovsky2002 (Oct 3, 2010)

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> I've never heard or seen an opera by Menotti but I have heard from a very high up person in the opera world in my country that he didn't like them. So maybe they aren't that good.


I liked the consul. It is dark, terrible and the musique is quite good.

Martin


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

myaskovsky2002 said:


> I don't agree... of course. This and Tannhäuser are too religious for me.
> 
> Martin, Laic


You heathen...


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## StlukesguildOhio (Dec 25, 2006)

emiellucifuge- In my opinion Parsifal is one of the most emotionally intense, spiritually awesome and philosophically profound artworks ever created.

myaskovsky2002- I don't agree... of course. This and Tannhäuser are too religious for me.

These... and most of Handel's oratorios and Bach's cantatas as well... but then you undoubtedly hate those as well.

Couchie- You heathen...

Heathen's indeed!!!:lol:


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## macgeek2005 (Apr 1, 2006)

Anna Bolena was one of the worst operas I've ever seen, musically. I was actually laughing out loud at the music by the time I was into the second act. One non-melody after another.. I couldn't write tonal music that hollow and unmemorable if I tried.


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## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

macgeek2005 said:


> Anna Bolena was one of the worst operas I've ever seen, musically. I was actually laughing out loud at the music by the time I was into the second act. One non-melody after another.. I couldn't write tonal music that hollow and unmemorable if I tried.


I've tried Anna Bolena again and again and I just don't get it. At least, not yet!


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## superhorn (Mar 23, 2010)

Virgil Thomosn's inane "Four Saints In Three Acts " has a lot of admirers, but based on hearing the one complete recording so far(the composer conducted a recording of excerpts long ago) , it's like the silliness of Monty Python's Flying Circus, without any of the zany humor .
The music is so ridiculously simplistic as to be beyond belief . Prokofiev sneeringly called it "Four Notes In Three Acts ".


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## myaskovsky2002 (Oct 3, 2010)

StlukesguildOhio said:


> emiellucifuge- In my opinion Parsifal is one of the most emotionally intense, spiritually awesome and philosophically profound artworks ever created.
> 
> myaskovsky2002- I don't agree... of course. This and Tannhäuser are too religious for me.
> 
> ...


I didn't say I hate them. It is just a detail that I don't really enjoy so much.

Martin


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## myaskovsky2002 (Oct 3, 2010)

macgeek2005 said:


> Anna Bolena was one of the worst operas I've ever seen, musically. I was actually laughing out loud at the music by the time I was into the second act. One non-melody after another.. I couldn't write tonal music that hollow and unmemorable if I tried.


Donizetti is Donizetti... You can't ask him so much. I prefer his comic operas. Don Pasquale, la fille du regiment... Anne Boleyn is less intersting FOR ME.

Martin


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## myaskovsky2002 (Oct 3, 2010)

Couchie said:


> You heathen...


Hitler loved Wagner. This religion oriented and at the same time a kind of racism met perfectly well the dictator's convictions.
Religions for me are bad. They are used to split people, to make enemies. You can have your own religion, you shouldn't try to convert others to YOUR religion. Politics are the same. I prefer not to speak about one or the other. Agreements are usually impossible, utopics. I like Tannhäuser music and Parsifal very much. When I followed both watching my DVDs I was revolted. I don't like people telling what is good or bad to do. Myself, I am an Hedonist, like the guy who enjoyed the Venus thing. I don't feel myself as a sinner. I like beauty, and it is not against any god.

Martin


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## MAuer (Feb 6, 2011)

Hitler may have loved Wagner, but he really didn't have a whole lot of use for religion. It wasn't just the Holocaust -- there were plenty of devout Protestants and Catholics who ended up in the concentration camps as well for sticking to their beliefs. I guess old Adolf didn't like competition . . . God included.:lol:


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## myaskovsky2002 (Oct 3, 2010)

MAuer said:


> Hitler may have loved Wagner, but he really didn't have a whole lot of use for religion. It wasn't just the Holocaust -- there were plenty of devout Protestants and Catholics who ended up in the concentration camps as well for sticking to their beliefs. I guess old Adolf didn't like competition . . . God included.:lol:


I guess you are right.

Martin


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## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

myaskovsky2002 said:


> Hitler loved Wagner. This religion oriented and at the same time a kind of racism met perfectly well the dictator's convictions.
> Religions for me are bad. They are used to split people, to make enemies. You can have your own religion, you shouldn't try to convert others to YOUR religion. Politics are the same. I prefer not to speak about one or the other. Agreements are usually impossible, utopics.


I know, it's easy to focus on the bad things religions do. People should bear in mind though, without religions, we'd have a LOT fewer homeless shelters, old folks' homes, and hospitals. And the religious spend their own money on these things. Religions do some good things, too.


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

myaskovsky2002 said:


> Hitler loved Wagner. This religion oriented and at the same time a kind of racism met perfectly well the dictator's convictions.
> Religions for me are bad. They are used to split people, to make enemies. You can have your own religion, you shouldn't try to convert others to YOUR religion. Politics are the same. I prefer not to speak about one or the other. Agreements are usually impossible, utopics. I like Tannhäuser music and Parsifal very much. When I followed both watching my DVDs I was revolted. I don't like people telling what is good or bad to do. Myself, I am an Hedonist, like the guy who enjoyed the Venus thing. I don't feel myself as a sinner. I like beauty, and it is not against any god.
> 
> Martin


That's why I got into communsim.


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## myaskovsky2002 (Oct 3, 2010)

I hate TRAVIATA


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## myaskovsky2002 (Oct 3, 2010)

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> I love _Akhnaten_


Philippppp Glasssss composed that


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

myaskovsky2002 said:


> I hate TRAVIATA


You are a monster.


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## StlukesguildOhio (Dec 25, 2006)

I hate TRAVIATA

And thus from here on I must hate you.:devil:


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

myaskovsky2002 said:


> I hate TRAVIATA


I love TRAVIATA


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

myaskovsky2002 said:


> Philippppp Glasssss composed that


Philippppp Glasssss did indeed compose that and it is a brilliant work too.


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## myaskovsky2002 (Oct 3, 2010)

I hate nobody because of their tastes. "tous les goûts existent dans la nature". 
I have a particular reason for hating Traviata and I explained so in a thread called, if I remember well, I hate Traviata. I loved Traviata before. My son made me hate it.

Best, even for Traviata lovers.

Martin


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

myaskovsky2002 said:


> I hate nobody because of their tastes. "tous les goûts existent dans la nature".
> I have a particular reason for hating Traviata and I explained so in a thread called, if I remember well, I hate Traviata. I loved Traviata before. My son made me hate it.
> 
> Best, even for Traviata lovers.
> ...


I remember that thread well, buts it has always puzzled me. :tiphat:


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## myaskovsky2002 (Oct 3, 2010)

Look... I think La Traviata (a cookie has this name in Argentina, and I've never liked that cookie) is a first step for opera lovers. It has so much music that gets you dizzy. But I Brindisi and La donna è putina...LOL. Mobile have the same catchy, unbearable beat.
It is so popular... In French we say: musique pour la populace, music for the rabble.

When I came to Canada in 1983, I brought plenty of cassettes and I also bought a VHS. I had the bad idea to buy.... La Traviata (Domingo, Stratas). My 1 year old son loved Traviata. At least two times a day he heard....TRAVIATA! But when he saw the VHS the situation went worse, he cried every single time he saw the girl dying. This lasted for about two more years. Dad was *Traviataded*... Near to death, I promiss myself, like the RAVEN for my friend Edgar Allan Poe, never more! Now you have the whole and comprehensible story of my feelings about this opera.

Martin


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

The worst operas in history are the ones that nobody has mentioned, because they are no longer in the repertoire. The majority of operas that have been composed since 1607 have fallen into obscurity, we are only listening to a tiny fraction of them. And rightly so, who on earth thought of reviving Galuppi's L'Olimpiade, what a yawnfest.

But one person's worst opera is another's favourite. I'm currently very keen on Baroque opera, particularly the sublime Handel and the surprisingly good Vivaldi. Sure the plots can be confusing (not always though), but that is often due to our relative ignorance of stories that would have been very familiar to a contemporary audience. And the music is truly glorious.


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## AlanPalgut (Apr 11, 2012)

Shut up! _La traviata_ is one of THE GREATEST OPERAS EVER!


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## AlanPalgut (Apr 11, 2012)

I don't think any of you understand what I had meant. It means worst operas EVER WRITTEN.


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

I think YOU have not understood. How would we know what the worst opera ever written is? We've probably never heard them because they were so bad they have sunk out of trace. 

If you mean worst operas ever written that are still in the repertoire, that's a different matter.


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> I don't like your list. Your list is insulting to me because I like those operas.


Go on, surprise us!


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## Moscow-Mahler (Jul 8, 2010)

I do not like Eugene Onegin, though I do not hate it, just think that someonw should made some other version something in the manner of Cosi fan tutte... much closer to the spirit of Pushkin's poem.

Lensky was a liittle bit *comical* personae in the poem...


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## Barelytenor (Nov 19, 2011)

mamascarlatti said:


> The worst operas in history are the ones that nobody has mentioned, because they are no longer in the repertoire. The majority of operas that have been composed since 1607 have fallen into obscurity, we are only listening to a tiny fraction of them. And rightly so, who on earth thought of reviving Galuppi's L'Olimpiade, what a yawnfest.
> 
> But one person's worst opera is another's favourite. I'm currently very keen on Baroque opera, particularly the sublime Handel and the surprisingly good Vivaldi. Sure the plots can be confusing (not always though), but that is often due to our relative ignorance of stories that would have been very familiar to a contemporary audience. And the music is truly glorious.


Once you quit trying to understand operatic plots you will be much better off. It's a bit OCD, trying to keep track of all those masquerades, dukes parading around as commoners, monarchs mimicking milkmaids, burnt ******** and the like. Once you quit trying to grok all that and just bask in the melody you will be MUCH better off.


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## Aksel (Dec 3, 2010)

Barelytenor said:


> Once you quit trying to understand operatic plots you will be much better off. It's a bit OCD, trying to keep track of all those masquerades, dukes parading around as commoners, monarchs mimicking milkmaids, burnt ******** and the like. Once you quit trying to grok all that and just bask in the melody you will be MUCH better off.


After a few Baroque operas, you'll understand everything. Trust me. NOTHING will ever seem convoluted.


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

Rangstrom said:


> Probably something by Menotti--The Consul would be a front runner, but that sappy Christmas one is a close second. The Leibermann presentation of the Help, Help, the Globolinks is bizarre enough to merit watching once.


The sappy one is Amahl and the Night visitors and it is indeed seriously bad!


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

Moira said:


> Fun thread. The only one I've heard is Mitridate, K87 (1770) by Johann Aurelius Wolfgang Amadeus Hans Christian Mozart. I found it slightly boring, but pretty enough.
> 
> Montezuma by Roger Sessions sounds interesting from the point of view that the Johannesburg Zoo will be opening a huge South and Central American exhibit next year, complete with a fresh water aquarium. When parents threaten to feed their children to the piranhas and the anacondas in the future the children will no longer be able to smugly say that there aren't any in Johannesburg. Actually the zoo people are very excited about this exhibit as it is anticipated that this will be a major attraction. It has been several years in the planning. The building is now built and they are waiting for the glass in the aquarium to settle and the plants to grow ... I digress. Montezuma. Nah! It is unlikely that we will get that here.


Sessions and Vivaldi both wrote operas on the Montezuma story, but so did Carl Heinrich Graun(there's a name to consider) ;his effort was produced at the Edinburgh Festival in 2010 and the review described it thus.
"a serial train wreck of a production, like a B movie so awful it becomes rather watchable"..


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## drpraetorus (Aug 9, 2012)

Il Travatore or maybe La Forze del Destino.


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

Several weeks ago I unfortunately discovered Lakmé.


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## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

AlanPalgut said:


> No. By the way, I've slightly overstated my description of _Mitridate_, but I stand very firmly; practically every number in the opera, except the final ensembles of Acts II and III, is indeed a solo aria.


What about the heavenly aria Lungi Da Te - with horn solo?


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## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

King Priam


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

drpraetorus said:


> Il Travatore or maybe La Forze del Destino.


I can't imagine why you think they are bad!


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## peeknocker (Feb 14, 2012)

Jake Heggie's "Moby Dick." I have listened intently to a recording of this three times and no matter how hard I try to like it, I think it terrible. However, some of the instrumental passages are rather magical. But as soon as the cast start squawking -- ugh! This is one of those recent works that seems to have won over audiences by an impressive staging. Not having seen it, but only heard it, I must attend only to the music itself.

Oh, and I like "Amahl and the Night Visitors."


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## zeszut (Aug 9, 2012)

Hesoos said:


> Usually I like all the operas I've listened, but the Barroc operas are generally a bit boring for me. These operas I couldn't listen to the end:
> 
> Cavalli's Il Giasone
> Jommelli's Didone abbandonata
> ...


you should listen to cavalli's ercole amante & la calisto.


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## zeszut (Aug 9, 2012)

superhorn said:


> A long forgotten opera by Vivaldi called Motezuma(not Montezuma ) was recently recorded by DG/Archiv
> conducted by baroque opera specialist Alan Curtis with singers whose names I don't recall offhand.
> Although I've never been a Vivaldi fan, I would be willing to hear it . A musicologist apparently had to reconstruct the opera because parts of it were missing from the manuscript .


a wonderful listen.


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

As has been mentioned the worst operas are probably the ones that you never hear. After all there must be a reason they've disappeared.
What about this lot :
Rip van Winkle--Reginald de Koven.
Shanewis (the Robin Woman)--Charles Wakefield.
La Princesse d'Auberge--Jan Blocks.
Griselidis--Massenet.
Cendrillon--Massenet.
The Village Barber--Johann Schenk.
Orestes--Felix Weingartner.
The Medici--Leoncavallo.
Guntram--Richard Strauss.
Crispino E La Comare--Luigi and Federico Ricci.
Jacquerie (The Peasants' Revolt)--Luigi Marinuzzi.

Somebody will come along and say they are all his favourites.


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## Aksel (Dec 3, 2010)

moody said:


> Cendrillon--Massenet.


The Royal Opera House in London recently did a production of this. It's actually rather good. By no means a favourite, but it is good fun.


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

Aksel said:


> The Royal Opera House in London recently did a production of this. It's actually rather good. By no means a favourite, but it is good fun.


Yup, light and endearing with some beautiful moments.


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## quack (Oct 13, 2011)

*Tobias*
Help!
Help!
I've fallen in.
_(A Huge Fish tries to devour him.)_
A fish is trying
to eat me!
Help!
*Raphael*
Listen!
*Tobias*
Help!
*Raphael*
Listen!
*Tobias*
Oh please
help me!
Raphael
What does the fish sing?
*Tobias*
I don't know!
Tell me!
*Raphael*
What does the fish sing?

Holy Zarquon, singing fish! _Tobias & The Angel_ by Jonathan Dove is the silliest opera I have heard recently.

*Raphael*
Listen
for the silence
in the song.
Listen!
*Tobias* (He listens.)
The fish's heart!
*Raphael*
Yes!
*Tobias*
Where is it?
We've lost it!
(He finds it.)

Talk about building the tension, well until the end of the bar at least. Then there is the heartfelt aria about debt:

*Raguel*
I'm drowning in zeros.
Drowning…
Ah, here it is.
Zero. Zero. Zero. Zero.
I'd have to pay him
my life!
*Sara* (to Tobias and Raphael)
You're welcome.
Here's cheese.

Of course Dove can't really be blamed for the silliness of Tobias going blind from a bird pooping in his eyes as that is in the biblical source.


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## StlukesguildOhio (Dec 25, 2006)

As has been mentioned the worst operas are probably the ones that you never hear. After all there must be a reason they've disappeared.

Cendrillon--Massenet-

Actually a good opera... and there are a number of recordings available.

The Medici--Leoncavallo

There is a solid recent recording of this... I believe with Placido Domingo on DG

Guntram--Richard Strauss

I actually have this because I'm a Strauss fanatic. It's just immature. For truly egregious (yet with some lovely music) try _Die ägyptische Helena_. After the "all-seeing" sea mollusk it all goes downhill. Strauss had wanted a comedy... but von Hoffmansthal (a damn fine writer) provided a tragedy so bad it's unintentionally funny.


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## Crudblud (Dec 29, 2011)

I don't know about worst of all time, I'm no opera buffa (d'oh!) but the worst I recall hearing is Meyerbeer's turgid _Il crociato in Egitto_.


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## dominique (Sep 22, 2012)

I had the bad lack to see Mazeppa live. The story is interesting (a 18 year old is in love with her sixtysomething godfather and he responds!) but Tcaikovsky 's music utterly disappoints and the whole thing very soon turns into something boring. The finale is also very depressing and cruel without good reason. Not even one memorable tune and really unsympathetic characters.


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## rborganist (Jan 29, 2013)

I've tried to listen to a couple of Philip Glass opera, and I just can't do it. I would have to put any opera by Philip Glass at the top of my worst opera list. I'm going to confine my list to crashing bores.


1. Einstein on the Beach by Philip Glass, for the reason the previous poster didn't like Akhnaten
2. The Island God by Gian-Carlo Menotti--one of his rare failures.
3. Death in Venice by Benjamin Britten--I couldn't finish listening to the broadcast (I've since heard that it's a very visual work)


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## deggial (Jan 20, 2013)

drpraetorus said:


> Il Travatore or maybe La Forze del Destino.


out of the repertoire, Il trovatore is a strong contender, but the real winn... err, loser is Don Carlo. 5 acts of _that_? the cheek! I quit midway through the third. However, some of the lesser known ones might be even worse.


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## sospiro (Apr 3, 2010)

There are no bad/worst operas, just those you don't like.


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## deggial (Jan 20, 2013)

macgeek2005 said:


> Anna Bolena was one of the worst operas I've ever seen, musically. I was actually laughing out loud at the music by the time I was into the second act. One non-melody after another.. I couldn't write tonal music that hollow and unmemorable if I tried.


to be fair, the man wrote quite a few duds... he's terribly hit and miss.

just remembered - Tosca receives an extra kick in the groin from me as it put me off opera for a ridiculously long time


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

sospiro said:


> There are no bad/worst operas, just those you don't like.


Reading this thread I think you are right. Don Carlos is one of my top ten, I love Death in Venice and Mazeppa and I like Akhnaten.


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## Sloe (May 9, 2014)

AlanPalgut said:


> I've been reading a book called _Skeletons from the Opera Closet_ and I find one section about opera's biggest failures interesting. The following operas are listed with my descriptions in a nutshell:
> 
> 
> _Giovanna d'Arco_ (1845) by Giuseppe Verdi (mind you, this was before _Rigoletto_): Joan must carry her own matches here. Also, you might be asking: What happened to the stake?
> ...


I like all these operas.
I saw a documentary once about a man that in his will left his fortune to the opera house that wanted to stage his opera but no opera house wanted to stage it because it was considered so bad. Eventually a museum staged it in a concertant version and received it.


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## Albert7 (Nov 16, 2014)

Hmmm... worst opera. Florencia do Amazonos (sic) was pretty bad.


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

Probably not THE worst but certainly way down in the muck with many others...



> Das Liebesverbot (The Ban on Love, WWV 38), is an early opera in two acts by Richard Wagner, with the libretto written by the composer after Shakespeare's Measure for Measure. Described as a Große komische Oper, it was composed in 1834, and Wagner conducted the premiere in 1836 at Magdeburg. Poorly attended and with a lead singer who forgot the words and had to improvise, it was a resounding flop and its second performance had to be cancelled after a fist-fight between the prima donna's husband and the lead tenor broke out backstage before the curtain had even risen; only three people were in the audience. It was never performed again in Wagner's lifetime.


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## sabrina (Apr 26, 2011)

I really don't like Das Rheingold, no matter how much I tried. I find the story boring, and it's hard for me to follow the singers. I always have a problem identifying the Gods/Rhinemaidens/giants, I don't know who is who and why are they shouting at each other. The music is nice, but I couldn't really find any aria good enough...I know there are no arias, still there is no piece of music memorable, except the overtures.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

sabrina said:


> I really don't like Das Rheingold, no matter how much I tried. I find the story boring, and it's hard for me to follow the singers. I always have a problem identifying the Gods/Rhinemaidens/giants, I don't know who is who and why are they shouting at each other. The music is nice, but I couldn't really find any aria good enough...I know there are no arias, still there is no piece of music memorable, except the overtures.


Giants are big, work in construction, and play timpani. Rhinemaidens are sexy, enjoy words beginning with "w," and play with dwarves.

That should get you oriented.


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## Sloe (May 9, 2014)

AlanPalgut said:


> [*]_Giovanna d'Arco_ (1845) by Giuseppe Verdi (mind you, this was before _Rigoletto_): Joan must carry her own matches here. Also, you might be asking: What happened to the stake?


I really don´t think it is important that there is no stake in Giovanna d'Arco. There are so many operas that have changes from the stories or events they are based on and they are still fine operas.


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## OperaMaven (May 5, 2014)

sabrina said:


> I really don't like Das Rheingold, no matter how much I tried. I find the story boring, and it's hard for me to follow the singers. I always have a problem identifying the Gods/Rhinemaidens/giants, I don't know who is who and why are they shouting at each other. The music is nice, but I couldn't really find any aria good enough...I know there are no arias, still there is no piece of music memorable, except the overtures.


Go get Anna Russell's guide to the Ring. She explains it all memorably and hilariously!


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## Meyerbeer Smith (Mar 25, 2016)

moody said:


> As has been mentioned the worst operas are probably the ones that you never hear. After all there must be a reason they've disappeared.
> What about this lot :
> Rip van Winkle--Reginald de Koven.
> Shanewis (the Robin Woman)--Charles Wakefield.
> ...


Four years later.. I love Griselidis. It's one of the old man's best works. The beautiful prologue, with "Ouvrez-vous sur mon front, portes du paradis"; the Devil's "Loin de sa femme"; the trio with Fiamina, the Devil and Griselidis; the love duet; "Il partit au printemps"; "L'oiselet est tombe' du nid" - you're immune to their charms?

Cendrillon is delightful. Mme de Haltiere's arias are very funny, and all the scenes at the fairy godmother's oak tree are ravishingly beautiful.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

Post #21 says, 


AlanPalgut said:


> An opera that falls into this category must be (1) inaccurate, (2) hard to understand and/or (3) easy to bore you.


On criteria #3 then I would have to peg Strauss' Capriccio--not necessarily as a worst opera in history but certainly very boring.


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

Merry Widow (ugh!)


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

nina foresti said:


> Merry Widow (ugh!)


Maybe so but if I could find a performance with Beverly Sills on DVD, I'd grab it in an instant!


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

nina foresti said:


> Merry Widow (ugh!)


Sorry about that. I find it tuneful despite the daft story


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## Meyerbeer Smith (Mar 25, 2016)

Becca said:


> Probably not THE worst but certainly way down in the muck with many others...


Yeah, but it's more fun than Parsifal. (How's that for a tag?) The overture is great - full of zest and energy, and completely unWagnerian; it sounds more like Zampa. The extended finale is impressive, with some catchy tunes, and there are some good duets and arias.

Diddlediddlediddlediddlediddlediddlediddledumdumdum.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

nina foresti said:


> Merry Widow (ugh!)


I am sorry you don't like it, but it's fun and entertaining


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

Pugg said:


> I am sorry you don't like it, but it's fun and entertaining


I hate fun in opera. I want to beat my breast in agony. THAT'S the fun for me.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

nina foresti said:


> Merry Widow (ugh!)


It's operetta, not opera, and does exactly what it says on the can. Performed like this, one realises just how good the music is.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

nina foresti said:


> I hate fun in opera. I want to beat my breast in agony. THAT'S the fun for me.


I can't see why we can't have breast beating and fun - though not necessarily in the same opera.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

guythegreg said:


> lol i love it - an opera about the fall of the aztecs! Not that I can't imagine why you'd want to do it, it's a namazing topic.
> 
> Have to say, Adriana Lecouvreur is, if not on my list of favorites, one I would happily see at any reputable house. I've got a DVD, and I saw a concert version recently, so I know there's some very engaging music in it.
> 
> ...


You are simply talking about stagings for 1 and 2. Misses the point.

As far as Pelléas et Mélisande. I would agree with you. It's a snoozer.


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## Sloe (May 9, 2014)

hpowders said:


> You are simply talking about stagings for 1 and 2. Misses the point.
> 
> As far as Pelléas et Mélisande. I would agree with you. It's a snoozer.


To fall asleep is not sign it is a bad opera. I have fallen asleep watching a Tosca video and woke up at the end of Turandot I even slept during Nessun Dorma. I have also fallen asleep watching Parsifal and Elektra.
All good operas by the way.


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## Morimur (Jan 23, 2014)

DavidA said:


> I can't see why we can't have breast beating and fun - though not necessarily in the same opera.


I am all about breast beating.

Hear, hear!


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Sloe said:


> To fall asleep is not sign it is a bad opera. I have fallen asleep watching a Tosca video and woke up at the end of Turandot I even slept during Nessun Dorma. I have also fallen asleep watching Parsifal and Elektra.
> All good operas by the way.


So your pills did work though:tiphat:


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## Sloe (May 9, 2014)

Pugg said:


> So your pills did work though:tiphat:


I have never taken sleeping pills.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Sloe said:


> I have never taken sleeping pills.


It was a joke Sloe


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## znapschatz (Feb 28, 2016)

nina foresti said:


> I hate fun in opera. I want to beat my breast in agony. THAT'S the fun for me.


Jeez! Until now I never thought about it, but that's much like me. But I do love The Marriage of Figaro and one or two others in which there are survivors, so I am not quite neck deep into the dark. Also, thankfully, there are no bruises on my chest. 
A local public radio classical music commentator here was asked by a caller how he would describe opera, and his reply, "First they sing, then they die."


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

znapschatz said:


> Jeez! Until now I never thought about it, but that's much like me. But I do love The Marriage of Figaro and one or two others in which there are survivors, so I am not quite neck deep into the dark. Also, thankfully, there are no bruises on my chest.
> A local public radio classical music commentator here was asked by a caller how he would describe opera, and his reply, "First they sing, then they die."


Well, to be honest, most off the time they do :lol:


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

AlanPalgut said:


> I've been reading a book called _Skeletons from the Opera Closet_ and I find one section about opera's biggest failures interesting. The following operas are listed with my descriptions in a nutshell:
> 
> [*]_*Mitridate*_, K87 (1770) by Johann Aurelius Wolfgang Amadeus Hans Christian Mozart: One solo aria follows another… several times in an unbroken row.


I have this one, and it is the only Mozart opera I have. Not sure why I bought it but maybe to be albe to say I have a Mozart opera. It was the only one I found that I could stomach (having similar reactions to Mozart's opera subject matter as did Beethoven).

Actually, for Mozartian style, much better is Cimarosa's Il matrimonio segreto (The Secret Marriage) which has a nice story.


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## Rossiniano (Jul 28, 2017)

Fritz Kobus said:


> I have this one, and it is the only Mozart opera I have. Not sure why I bought it but maybe to be albe to say I have a Mozart opera. It was the only one I found that I could stomach (having similar reactions to Mozart's opera subject matter as did Beethoven).
> 
> Actually, for Mozartian style, much better is Cimarosa's Il matrimonio segreto (The Secret Marriage) which has a nice story.


Well, I have four recordings of _Il Matrimonio Segreto_ and none of _Le Nozze di Figaro._ In fairness, _Figaro_ is a masterfully composed piece, but it is not Italian opera buffa... perhaps it is something much finer... but give me the Cimarosa piece any day. Same for the little known Paisiello piece _Il_ _Socrate Immaginario_ which is quite a sophisticated composition. Incidentally our local opera company is performing _Figaro_ as I type this. I had no desire to attend.

For the record my favorite Mozart opera is _Don Giovanni._.. that is on a different level... it contains every emotion in the human experience and even takes us to the depths of hell. The music reflects this and that is what makes it such a special and unique piece.


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## Larkenfield (Jun 5, 2017)

"Mitridate, K87 (1770) by Johann Aurelius Wolfgang Amadeus Hans Christian Mozart: One solo aria follows another… several times in an unbroken row."



> The opera was first performed at the Teatro Regio Ducal, Milan, on 26 December 1770 (at the Milan Carnival). It was a success, having been performed twenty-one times despite doubts because of Mozart's extreme youth - he was 14 at the time. [unquote]


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## Jeffrey Smith (Jan 2, 2016)

Oh dear.
I am trying to imagine not liking Marriage of Figaro. I belong in the group of people who think of it as possibly the greatest opera of all time. There's certainly enough farce in it to satisfy most opera buffa audiences.

I've heard Mithridate once. I have it as part of that Complete Mozart Opera 44 CD box Philips/Decca put out. I have absolutely no memory of it, however.

With very few exceptions, I don't like Baroque opera in general. Only arias, almost no duets, trios, ensembles, made worse by the fact that they were dominated by high voices because of castrati. The exceptions, for some reason, are all by Handel


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## alan davis (Oct 16, 2013)

It probably shouldn't be included in a list of the worst opera in history but Bizet's "the Pearl Fishers" is a shocker. Have seen two productions live over the years and each time thought they should just begin with the duet then let us all have an early night.


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## Sloe (May 9, 2014)

alan davis said:


> It probably shouldn't be included in a list of the worst opera in history but Bizet's "the Pearl Fishers" is a shocker. Have seen two productions live over the years and each time thought they should just begin with the duet then let us all have an early night.


Whaaat!!!!!

Pearl Fishers is a very beautiful opera that I have listened to several times.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

How many times have you heard an aria on a recital disc, and then gone on to explore the complete opera, only to find that that one aria is the only thing worth hearing in the entire opera?

*La Wally* is one of those for me. Wally's _Ebben ne andro lontana_ does not an opera make. As for Cilea's *Adrianna Lecouvreur*, it may have more than one good aria in it, but the rest is a load of old hokum.


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## Belowpar (Jan 14, 2015)

GregMitchell said:


> How many times have you heard an aria on a recital disc, and then gone on to explore the complete opera, only to find that that one aria is the only thing worth hearing in the entire opera?
> 
> *La Wally* is one of those for me. Wally's _Ebben ne andro lontana_ does not an opera make. .


Back in 1991 I was just getting into Opera when this terrifically entertaining French film, Diva, arrived and was quite the hit in what I remember as a hot summer. It's only exagerating a little to say it was built around Ebben ne andro lontana, as a bootleg tape recording of the aria was repeated over and over as a plot twist.

So I tracked down a two CD recording of the Opera (back then Opera CD's were not cheap or that easy to find) and it resisted all my efforts to like it. It nearly killed my interest stone dead.

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0082269/

Must check out to see if the film is available on line.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Belowpar said:


> Back in 1991 I was just getting into Opera when this terrifically entertaining French film, Diva, arrived and was quite the hit in what I remember as a hot summer. It's only exagerating a little to say it was built around Ebben ne andro lontana, as a bootleg tape recording of the aria was repeated over and over as a plot twist.
> 
> So I tracked down a two CD recording of the Opera (back then Opera CD's were not cheap or that easy to find) and it resisted all my efforts to like it. It nearly killed my interest stone dead.
> 
> ...


I remember that movie. It made the opera singer Wilhelmenia Fernandez into quite a star for a while. She made her stage debut singing Musetta in a production of *La Boheme* with Domingo and Te Kanawa in Paris shortly after the movie was released. However she doesn't seem to have had a major career.


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## Sloe (May 9, 2014)

GregMitchell said:


> How many times have you heard an aria on a recital disc, and then gone on to explore the complete opera, only to find that that one aria is the only thing worth hearing in the entire opera?
> 
> *La Wally* is one of those for me. Wally's _Ebben ne andro lontana_ does not an opera make. As for Cilea's *Adrianna Lecouvreur*, it may have more than one good aria in it, but the rest is a load of old hokum.


So it is not only me that just haven't bothered getting Into the opera. However I like that she dies in an avalanche I would say that is rather original.


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

I was incredibly disappointed the first time I heard La Wally and have to agree that it isn't great opera.

N.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

GregMitchell said:


> How many times have you heard an aria on a recital disc, and then gone on to explore the complete opera, only to find that that one aria is the only thing worth hearing in the entire opera?
> 
> *La Wally* is one of those for me. Wally's _Ebben ne andro lontana_ does not an opera make. As for Cilea's *Adrianna Lecouvreur*, it may have more than one good aria in it, but the rest is a load of old hokum.


Alas, poor Adrianna. Even La Superba couldn't save her. As for Wally, I've never followed her all the way to the avalanche, and based on your discommendation probably never will. Buried under rocks, buried in obscurity... A fitting end, no doubt.

This brings the concurrent discussion of Meyerbeer to mind. I've just listened to the first three acts of _Le Prophete_ - about two hours' worth - and have yet to hear anything that makes me eager to finish the opera. God only knows how much more unmemorable stuff precedes the "Coronation March," but do I really need to hear that anyway? The only aria I recognized, Fides' "Ah, mon fils," is still done, but even that I remembered as better than it seems now, perhaps because I first heard it in the great old recordings (in both French and German) by Ernestine Schumann-Heink.


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

I really like Adrianna Lecouvreur, I've seen it a few times and enjoyed more with each listen. (I'll have to get out the old Olivero, Corelli, Simionato, Bastianini recording.)

N.


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## Larkenfield (Jun 5, 2017)

. . . . . . . . . .


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

The Conte said:


> I really like Adrianna Lecouvreur, I've seen it a few times and enjoyed more with each listen. (I'll have to get out the old Olivero, Corelli, Simionato, Bastianini recording.)
> 
> N.


I have the recording with Scotto and Domingo, and I suppose I should give it another chance, but, each time I do, I can't help thinking it's a load of old fashioned twaddle. Nor do I think it's the fault of the performance. Callas's sublime versions of Adrianna's two key arias led me to expect more, but I think she was wise to otherwise steer clear of it.


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

GregMitchell said:


> I have the recording with Scotto and Domingo, and I suppose I should give it another chance, but, each time I do, I can't help thinking it's a load of old fashioned twaddle. Nor do I think it's the fault of the performance. Callas's sublime versions of Adrianna's two key arias led me to expect more, but I think she was wise to otherwise steer clear of it.


You need to hear a recording with Olivero. As for Callas she often transformed the music she sang making it into something almost better than it was. Whilst the music of I Puritani is superb, the plot could be described as 'a load of old fashioned twaddle' and yet Callas persuades us that Elvira is a convincing creation.

Adrianna certainly isn't first class opera and the plot is ridiculous, but it has its merits and works in performance. The Scotto/Domingo recording is a good standard version, but not anything more than that. There are a lot of good arias in the piece:

Adrianna's two arias
The mezzo aria at the beginning of act two
L'anima ho stanca
Tenor/Soprano duet in act one.

N.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

The Conte said:


> You need to hear a recording with Olivero. As for Callas she often transformed the music she sang making it into something almost better than it was. Whilst the music of I Puritani is superb, the plot could be described as 'a load of old fashioned twaddle' and yet Callas persuades us that Elvira is a convincing creation.
> 
> Adrianna certainly isn't first class opera and the plot is ridiculous, but it has its merits and works in performance. The Scotto/Domingo recording is a good standard version, but not anything more than that. There are a lot of good arias in the piece:
> 
> ...


Well I'm not much of a fan of _verismo_ in general, so that could explain why I find it easier to enjoy bel canto twaddle :lol:

I do rather enjoy Gobbi's wonderful version of Michonnet's _Ecco il monologo_ though.


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## Headphone Hermit (Jan 8, 2014)

GregMitchell said:


> How many times have you heard an aria on a recital disc, and then gone on to explore the complete opera, only to find that that one aria is the only thing worth hearing in the entire opera?
> 
> *La Wally* is one of those for me. Wally's _Ebben ne andro lontana_ does not an opera make. As for Cilea's *Adrianna Lecouvreur*, it may have more than one good aria in it, but the rest is a load of old hokum.


I agree with you on both counts ... and yet Toscanini liked _'La Wally'_ so much that he named his daughter after it. Clearly he saw much in it that has escaped my sensibilities.


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## Bellinilover (Jul 24, 2013)

MEFISTOFELE by Arrigo Boito. I don't know whether or not it's _objectively_ a bad opera; it's just that what I've heard of it doesn't sound very appealing.

Edited to add: However, I love the above-disparaged ADRIANA LECOUVREUR.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Bellinilover said:


> MEFISTOFELE by Arrigo Boito. I don't know whether or not it's _objectively_ a bad opera; it's just that what I've heard of it doesn't sound very appealing.


_Mefistofele_ has never grabbed me either. I keep meaning to try it again some day. Of the Faust operas, I'd say Busoni's _Doktor Faust_ is the most interesting, and Gounod's _Faust_ the most tuneful and entertaining.


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

I love Mefistofele.


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## davidscalvini (Jan 1, 2018)

Tsaraslondon said:


> How many times have you heard an aria on a recital disc, and then gone on to explore the complete opera, only to find that that one aria is the only thing worth hearing in the entire opera?
> 
> *La Wally* is one of those for me. Wally's _Ebben ne andro lontana_ does not an opera make. As for Cilea's *Adrianna Lecouvreur*, it may have more than one good aria in it, but the rest is a load of old hokum.


I've read that Mahler considered La Wally the best Italian opera.


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## HenryPenfold (Apr 29, 2018)

Itullian said:


> I love Mefistofele.


Me too!!!! :tiphat:


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## vivalagentenuova (Jun 11, 2019)

davidscalvini said:


> I've read that Mahler considered La Wally the best Italian opera.


And Toscanini insisted that Catalani was a better opera composer than Puccini. A good reminder to use our own ears and not those of others.

I was taken to see Shostakovich's _The Nose_ once. It was like taking a mind altering substance and then being assaulted with random shocks to the nervous system for two hours. Anyway, the person who took me to see it fell asleep. Afterwards, he told me that he had loved it and that Shostakovich was a genius. I can't say it's the worst opera or even a bad opera since I seem to have blocked out the memories of the actual music and story, but it was one of the less enjoyable or enlightening operatic experiences I've had. I'd try it again, properly sedated, of course, as my friend seemed to have known the right way to appreciate the experience and the genius of the piece.


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

vivalagentenuova said:


> And Toscanini insisted that Catalani was a better opera composer than Puccini. A good reminder to use our own ears and not those of others.
> 
> I was taken to see Shostakovich's _The Nose_ once. It was like taking a mind altering substance and then being assaulted with random shocks to the nervous system for two hours. Anyway, the person who took me to see it fell asleep. Afterwards, he told me that he had loved it and that Shostakovich was a genius. I can't say it's the worst opera or even a bad opera since I seem to have blocked out the memories of the actual music and story, but it was one of the less enjoyable or enlightening operatic experiences I've had. I'd try it again, properly sedated, of course, as my friend seemed to have known the right way to appreciate the experience and the genius of the piece.


The Nose is the worse opera I have ever seen. There's a moment in the middle of it (or at least in the production I saw), where a random woman comes on and speaks the line (I paraphrase), "But who in their right mind would enjoy this opera?" - That was the highlight, so funny because it was true.

N.


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## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

I can understand why _The Nose_ would get up the eponymous appendages of some folks but I'm not one. I read the short story by Gogol long before hearing the music by Shostakovich but when I did get to hear the music for the first time I thought that it totally chimed with both the frantic pace and the absurdism of the plot.


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

No matter what opera someone posts in this thread as "the worst" there will be someone, or more, who love it. Opera is like that - even the worst is wonderful.


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## BBSVK (10 mo ago)

All the operas that survived the test of time are actually quite good or interesting to somebody. The worst ones did not make it to 21. century and are burried in the archives somewhere.


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## marlow (11 mo ago)

The Conte said:


> The Nose is the worse opera I have ever seen. There's a moment in the middle of it (or at least in the production I saw), where a random woman comes on and speaks the line (I paraphrase), "But who in their right mind would enjoy this opera?" - That was the highlight, so funny because it was true.
> 
> N.


I had a similar impression when I saw it. For sheer lack of enjoyment Wozzek took the biscuit - horrible people doing horrible things to atonal music.


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## BBSVK (10 mo ago)

marlow said:


> I had a similar impression when I saw it. For sheer lack of enjoyment Wozzek took the biscuit - horrible people doing horrible things to atonal music.


Good to know. I started wondering, if should get familiar with Wozzeck, because people consider it important. Now I guess it will not be for me.


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## Aerobat (Dec 31, 2018)

BBSVK said:


> Good to know. I started wondering, if should get familiar with Wozzeck, because people consider it important. Now I guess it will not be for me.


I have tried to get familiar with Wozzeck. There are several versions on Youtube. I found all versions of it utterly unbearable. I also gave Lulu a try, but that was equally unbearable. Not for me, I have found my limit.


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## ColdGenius (9 mo ago)

I'm afraid of Wozzeck. I've seen a DVD of Lulu with a question: What for the God's sake Petibon had forgotten there. Since that I'm very careful with post-Strauss music. 
I've seen, of course, bad productions and bad performances, but none of them was so indigestible. I speak about live performances.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

BBSVK said:


> Good to know. I started wondering, if should get familiar with Wozzeck, because people consider it important. Now I guess it will not be for me.


It is important, whether we like it or not. I became familiar with it toward the very beginning of my interest in opera, via the only recording that existed then - the one featuring Mack Harrell and Eileen Farrell under Dmitri Mitropoulos - and I found it fascinating and, in its climactic final scene, powerful. I was more concerned then with finding out about it than with liking or disliking it. In the end (if this is the end) I'm not fond of it, but I still consider it an important work, as I do Lulu (which I don't much like either). Berg was not a dilettante. (BTW, Harrell and Farrell were great singers, Mitropoulos was a first-tier conductor, and that old recording still offers real values. Maybe I'll be in the mood to return to it someday.)


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Woodduck said:


> It is important, whether we like it or not. I became familiar with it toward the very beginning of my interest in opera, via the only recording that existed then - the one featuring Mack Harrell and Eileen Farrell under Dmitri Mitropoulos - and I found it fascinating and, in its climactic final scene, powerful. I was more concerned then with finding out about it than with liking or disliking it. In the end (if this is the end) I'm not fond of it, but I still consider it an important work, as I do Lulu (which I don't much like either). Berg was not a dilettante. (BTW, Harrell and Farrell were great singers, Mitropoulos was a first-tier conductor, and that old recording still offers real values. Maybe I'll be in the mood to return to it someday.)


I've never seen either *Wozzeck *or *Lulu*, though I did have recordings of both at one time. I found that I rarely listened to them and consequently, when I made the transition from LP to CD, never got them again.

I always think in retropsect that I was quite lucky that my opera going passion started when I was living in a smaller city (in my case Newcastle-upon-Tyne) where opera performances were restricted to visits by touring companies, rather than living in London with its almost constant stream of opera. Had I lived in London and been spoiled for choice I would no doubt not have experimented as I did in Newcastle and been safer in my choices. Whenever a touring company came I would just go and see everything I could and was often surprised to find I enjoyed some of the more obscure operas that I saw. I particularly remember a superb production of Henze's *Elegy for Young Lovers *by Scottish Opera, though I've never seen or heard it again. I actually enjoyed it more than the previous night's *Lucia di Lammermoor*! Musically it may not really be my cup of tea, but the production was thoroughly absorbing. As with the Berg operas though, I think I probably need the live experience


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## ColdGenius (9 mo ago)

Live performance is always more exciting than a recording, despite of imperfections of an orchestra and singers, strangeness of a production design and mis-en-scene and of musical material.


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

BBSVK said:


> Good to know. I started wondering, if should get familiar with Wozzeck, because people consider it important. Now I guess it will not be for me.


About 15 years ago some opera friends sent me cds of Wozzeck in attempts to change my closed mind of why I just didn't want to see it. I listened to the first gift in my car and really tried to "get it" but failed miserably. 
Not to be a quitter, I played the second one and really "listened" this time with the same negative result.
By the time I played it a third time, I was done in and gave up my hope of understanding what it was that attracted so many.
A year later the Met had a production of it and several of my opera friends practically shoved me into the theater with inducements of desserts and cocktails afterwards and remarks that it was only a short opera. 
To be sociable I went. 
An epiphany!! I could not believe how involved I became with the story when I actually saw it live -- which for me made all the difference in the world. I liked it so much that I saw it 2 more times after that.
Sometimes it takes the whole package to exend a deeper interest, especially with atonal offerings.


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## ColdGenius (9 mo ago)

Once I watched "Written on skin" live (concert performance) and was admired. But recording didn't make the same effect. 
Maybe one day I'll buy a ticket for Berg's opera. It's unlikely to occur until Verdi, Mozart, Handel and Strauss are staged. Or until Krassimira Stoyanova sings in it.


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

The Conte said:


> You need to hear a recording with Olivero. As for Callas she often transformed the music she sang making it into something almost better than it was. Whilst the music of I Puritani is superb, the plot could be described as 'a load of old fashioned twaddle' and yet Callas persuades us that Elvira is a convincing creation.
> 
> Adrianna certainly isn't first class opera and the plot is ridiculous, but it has its merits and works in performance. The Scotto/Domingo recording is a good standard version, but not anything more than that. There are a lot of good arias in the piece:
> 
> ...


Exactly. Add to that Cilea's haunting theme and I am willing to overlook the pap of the story, especially when done by Olivero/Corelli/Simionato/Bastianini.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

2:11 _"There's no lock on the that door. No one will bar the way. You simply have to walk through it."_







marlow said:


> horrible people doing horrible things to atonal music.


You sound as if _"atonal music isn't horrible intrinsically; it's just that horrible people are doing horrible things to it."_


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