# Brucknerians unite!



## Vaneyes (May 11, 2010)

List what you like in Bruckner recordings--symphonic, choral, chamber.

Even with the kibosh on Bruckner symphonic cycles (No completed cycles since Barenboim, Skrowaczewski, Tintner?), there's still plenty to choose from on an ongoing basis. Reissues, new releases.

Today, student symphonies and Nos. 1 - 3 are largely ignored. Muti is an exception, with a soon-to-be released No. 2 with CSO on Resound. I'm anxious to hear more of the new.

So far, not much of has broken into my symphonic preferences. The aforementioned Barenboim and Nagano being the most recent.

1. Sawallisch (Orfeo) 2. Giulini (Testament) 3. Barenboim (Teldec) 4. Jochum (DG) 5. Horenstein (BBC) 6. Nagano (naive) 7. Karajan (DG) 8. Jochum (DG) 9. Jochum (EMI)


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## GraemeG (Jun 30, 2009)

4 is Celibidache. This is one certain thing in the universe.
Jochum is rubbish. His plan when he comes to a passage he can't make work is to speed up and charge through it.
Big mistake.
And he uses Nowak in the 8th. Another big mistake.
cheers,
G


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## Vaneyes (May 11, 2010)

They both use Nowak in the 8th, and regarding tempi, you must be referring to Celi's glacial EMI accounts. To his later credit or discredit, the DG was accelerated.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

I've recently gotten hold of Bruckner's _Mass in E minor_, performed by the Corydon Singers & English Chamber Orchestra under Matthew Best (Hyperion "Helios" label). It's quite a good recording, I think that the darkness & doubt in the work is brought out well. I'm looking forward to seeing this work performed live in August here in Sydney. Almost nothing beats seeing Bruckner done live, my first time seeing the _Romantic_ done in about 1991 (ages ago!) was very memorable indeed.


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## Sebastien Melmoth (Apr 14, 2010)

*Bruckner*'s (two-viola) F-major *String Quintet* is one of the greatest pieces of chamber music of all time: it totally rivalls Schubert's (two-cello) Quintet and the late-Beethoven String Quartets.

Much as I'd like to see a *Boulez* Bruckner cycle, we may have to settle for just he Eighth as he's aging quickly.

That said, *Karajan*'s '70s cycle is the one for me.

Favourite Bruckner symphony? *No. 5*.

There is an interesting CD of early Bruckner piano works on cpo label performed on a Bösendorfer fortepiano.


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## Guest (May 14, 2010)

The 4th was already my favorite - Wand/BPO is wonderful, and I quite like Bohm as well. But as has already been said, Cellibidache takes it to an entirely new plane. Incredible. Normally slowed down tempos turn me off, but I read a review that made the argument that Bruckner's symphonies, and particularly the 4th, lend themselves well to slower tempos, and this is definitely the recording to champion that argument.

Other than that, I quite like the 6th (Klemperer) and the 8th (Wand), as well.


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

I just started a re-listen of the complete cycle (excluing 0 and 00) yesterday. I am at #6 now.


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## Sebastien Melmoth (Apr 14, 2010)

Cellibidache's recordings are all 'live': any issues with applause? (Hate it...)

His recordings on EMI are OOP...


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## World Violist (May 31, 2007)

I'm quite taken with Celibidache's Bruckner... have been for a while. For No. 8 I definitely very much like Boulez, though. Saw a video of the third movement from St. Florian's Cathedral with the Vienna Philharmonic under Boulez... that was a very great performance. I notice it's out of print (or so it says on Amazon)... maybe they'll be reprinting it on a DG originals??? I really hope so. Something like that needs to stay in print.

As for what I look for in a Bruckner performance... nothing forced, tempi and balances totally natural. If there is tempo fluctuation it must have a reason behind it and not just because the conductor said so. Massive bass, strings with a wide palette of sounds, so on... in short, what everyone else seems to look for in a Bruckner symphony... except that I vastly prefer slower tempi. I don't feel like it makes much sense otherwise, unless the conductor is just that good (i.e. Boulez).


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## Frasier (Mar 10, 2007)

The difficulty with Bruckner is so many editions and revisions all allowing interpretive scope without the conductor being too interventionist. Having listened to a good many recordings from the historical to the latest I find it hard to settle on one conductor for a given work. It was easier until about 15 years ago when new or re-releases were comparatively rare while Mahler was still riding the crest. Now Bruckner recordings are flooding out, among them a few run-of-the-mill where the recording team seem more interventionist than the conductors.

It doesn't help that new bits of Bruckner scores are still coming to light; new thought given to old arguments about what Bruckner wanted and not (hence Kostvedt's 2004 revision of the 4th and, for instance, Kawasaki's reworking of some of the 5th) and the anecdotal speculation about his personality and behaviour in situ are being reappraised.

I'm particularly interested in attempts to produce a performing version of the 9th Finale, the several revisions by Carragan and the SPCM 'syndicate'. 

Does anyone have thoughts about the "completion" of the 9th? I never really subscribed to the dogma that it should remain a 3 movement work, the Adagio rounding it off, as some would say.


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## Sebastien Melmoth (Apr 14, 2010)

Wouldn't get too hung-up on the different editions, firstly because Bruckner left all the original manuscripts of his works to the Austrian National Museum, and secondly because between Nowak and Haas they've pretty much got them worked out.

On *No. 9*, see it (like Schubert's b-minor Symphony) unintentionally 'finished' because the Adagios to both are so unutterably ineffible that anything following would be anticlimactic.

Thielemann's *No. 5* with the burnished Münchners is absolutely worth a peep.
http://www.amazon.com/Bruckner-Symp...=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1274015931&sr=1-1

Klemperer's *No. 6* with the British New Philharmonia O, ditto.
http://www.amazon.com/Bruckner-Symp...=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1274016381&sr=1-1

Böhm's *No. 7* with the glorious VPO, ditto.
http://www.amazon.com/Anton-Bruckne...=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1274016420&sr=1-1

Karajan's 1958 *No. 8* with the BPO, ditto.
http://www.amazon.com/Bruckner-Symp...r_1_12?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1274016455&sr=1-12

Karajan's 1966 *No. 9*, ditto, but really prefer his 1972 *No. 9*.
http://www.amazon.com/Bruckner-Symp...=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1274016506&sr=1-1

http://www.amazon.com/Anton-Bruckne...rmonic/dp/B00000E3EL/ref=cm_cr_pr_product_top


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## Vaneyes (May 11, 2010)

"Does anyone have thoughts about the "completion" of the 9th? I never really subscribed to the dogma that it should remain a 3 movement work, the Adagio rounding it off, as some would say."

I think it's sublime just the way it is (Dogma: If it ain't broke, don't fix it).


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## Sebastien Melmoth (Apr 14, 2010)

Bruckner wrote a very craftsmanlike String Quartet in c-minor worthy of audition for enthusiasts of the genre; moreover, his F-major String Quintet is without question one of the greatest pieces of chamber music of all time.
It falls in with his group of major-key symphonies (Nos. 5-7).
Some have tried to call it a symphony for chamber ensemble, and while Bruckner follows his usual template, he perfectly understands the chamber medium: the ensemble string writing is superb.
This work *must* be known by all Brucknerians.

http://www.amazon.com/Bruckner-s-two-viola-Quintet/lm/R6QFBPLQ9D282/ref=cm_lm_byauthor_title_full


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

I love the 9th as it is - perfection.

I'd go one step further - if the 7th had just consisted of the first two movements (like Schubert's 8th), I would hail it as one of the best symphonies ever composed.


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## Sebastien Melmoth (Apr 14, 2010)

Art Rock said:


> _If the 7th had just consisted of the first two movements (like Schubert's 8th), I would hail it as one of the best symphonies ever composed._


Ah--but you would lose the terrific 'cock-crowing' Scherzo to No. 7!


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

That's just it - I don't particularly like the other two movements, whereas the first two are brilliant.


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## Guest (May 19, 2010)

Sebastien Melmoth said:


> Cellibidache's recordings are all 'live': any issues with applause? (Hate it...)
> 
> His recordings on EMI are OOP...


I only have the 4th, on EMI. Honestly, I don't mind live performances, and I tune out the audience noise, unless it is ubiquitous. I don't seem to remember it being much of an issue in the 4th.

His recording of the 4th has the slowest tempi of all the 4ths I have heard (although that only includes Bohm and Wand). But that doesn't mean it feels like it drags. I would say it sounds more majestic. The music washes over you. I have no technical musical training, so I can't speak to that aspect. But to my ears, it is a wonderful experience - not to detract from Wand, which is also quite good.


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## Il Seraglio (Sep 14, 2009)

Giulini is a fantastic Bruckner conducter I have to say. He takes the 9th a little bit slower than most, but I wouldnt have it any other way and it's a very emotional performance.

I intend to track down his recording of the 8th at some point soon although it's not being sold in the UK.


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## starry (Jun 2, 2009)

Art Rock said:


> That's just it - I don't particularly like the other two movements, whereas the first two are brilliant.


Yeh, the first movement in particular. It's the same problem a bit with Beethoven's 9th for me. Once a composer really tops himself (excels himself to the utmost) with the start to a symphony how does he manage to conclude it successfully? Difficult. To a slightly lesser extent it's the same with the Eroica, the first two movements are so brilliant.


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