# "The Magic Flute" by Mozart



## Clouds Weep Snowflakes (Feb 24, 2019)

His last opera, it was first conducted less than three months before Mozart's death; your opinion(s) on it? I'm getting it on CD till the end of the month, the parts I listened to by now are very good!


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## RockyIII (Jan 21, 2019)

I like Die Zauberflöte (The Magic Flute) a lot. Of the recordings I’ve heard by Abbado/Mahler Chamber Orchestra, Böhm/Berlin Philharmonic Orchestra, Mackerras/Scottish Chamber Orchestra, and Solti/Wiener Philharmoniker, my favorite is Abbado.


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## ldiat (Jan 27, 2016)

YES! Magic Flute. have been watching several versions on you tube. one is with circus acts. on is set in a high school. one has the the 3 women blind, and set like in the 40's.(playboy center folds hanging in a locker) i posted on here some where about it.


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## jegreenwood (Dec 25, 2015)

There's always Ingmar Bergman's film version (in Swedish but marvelous filmmaking).

When I first heard of VCRs and videocasettes in the late 70s/early 80s, I asked myself if there was any movie I wanted to own. This was the first one that came to mind.

Edit - just realized the Blu-Ray is set for release the day after tomorrow.


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## Hermastersvoice (Oct 15, 2018)

A master piece, no doubt, but perhaps more of its time than say the 3 Da Ponte operas which are more timeless. You need to get into the whole Free Mason mythology to understand Zauberflöte. I am saying that because, personally, I never got the whole being chased-by-a-snake thing - and after that it only gets more baffling. The music is of course masterly. There are few recordings without serious miscasting around, funnily enough, and those which are goood at that point, suffer from a lack of vision on the part of the conductor. Böhm II., yes. Abbado, yes, if you don’t mind all the HIP attempts. Klemperer gets it, there is an overall vision, not just a succession of tunes, and his cast is faultless. As for the absence of dialogue, it suits me.


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## Clouds Weep Snowflakes (Feb 24, 2019)

So it seems you people generally agree with me that this opera is good music...wait, it's Mozart, anything he composed is good music...would you agree on that too?


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## Yornlig (Mar 4, 2019)

RockyIII said:


> I like Die Zauberflöte (The Magic Flute) a lot. Of the recordings I've heard by Abbado/Mahler Chamber Orchestra, Böhm/Berlin Philharmonic Orchestra, Mackerras/Scottish Chamber Orchestra, and Solti/Wiener Philharmoniker, my favorite is Abbado.


+1


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## ldiat (Jan 27, 2016)

another Version!!!


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Hermastersvoice said:


> A master piece, no doubt, but perhaps more of its time than say the 3 Da Ponte operas which are more timeless. You need to get into the whole Free Mason mythology to understand Zauberflöte. I am saying that because, personally, I never got the whole being chased-by-a-snake thing - and after that it only gets more baffling. The music is of course masterly. There are few recordings without serious miscasting around, funnily enough, and those which are goood at that point, suffer from a lack of vision on the part of the conductor. Böhm II., yes. *Abbado, yes, if you don't mind all the HIP attempts. *Klemperer gets it, there is an overall vision, not just a succession of tunes, and his cast is faultless. As for the absence of dialogue, it suits me.


Abbado is not HIP juste with the Mahler chamber orchestra. For HIP try Jacobs or Christie.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Clouds Weep Snowflakes said:


> So it seems you people generally agree with me that this opera is good music...wait, it's Mozart, anything he composed is good music...would you agree on that too?


Mozart never composed bad music, but not everything he composed was on the sublime level of Zauberflote. This has always been one of my favourite operas and probably the best place to start in opera. Ignore the idiotic plot which is comprehensible only to Freemasons and concentrate on the music and the remarkable characterisations Mozart draws .
Over the years I've collected so many performances of this on CD that my wife tears her hair out at the space they take. 
Roughly chronologically:
Beecham 1939 - The first one on disc with the Berlin Philarmonic. No dialogue. You have to swallow the fact that it was made in the Germany of the third Reich and Jewish artists were excluded.
Karajan 1952 is the version that introduced me to this with superconducting and a great cast from Vienna of the day - no dialogue
Klemperer - The cast could hardly be bettered but K is a bit slow but the whole thing adds up
Bohm - The only reason for having this to me is Wunderlich superb Tamino. But that is quite a factor 
Abaddo - probably the best all-round modern version with some dialogue and a superb young cast which shares the elderly conductor's enthusiasm for the music. Absolutely bewitching
Mackerras - superbly conducted but the cast is not quite up to the standard of some of the others

Now 3 HIP versions:

Ostman - bought it because it was cheap but it is really good 
Christie - much praised by the critics but it is a bit slow almost like Klemperer conducting 
Jacobs - this is a superb version if you don't mind having all the dialogue which is accompanied in places . As a non Gernan speaker I find it a bit tedious but of course you can always skip the dialogue on CD . One of Jacobs bizarre experiments which hasn't really worked . The actual performance is superb


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## wkasimer (Jun 5, 2017)

DavidA said:


> Beecham 1939 - The first one on disc with the Berlin Philarmonic. No dialogue. You have to swallow the fact that it was made in the Germany of the third Reich and Jewish artists were excluded.


You also have to put up with a completely miscast Tamino, a pallid Pamina, and a "little girl" Queen of the Night. Frankly, the only reason I've kept this is for Gerhard Hüsch's Papageno.



> Karajan 1952 is the version that introduced me to this with superconducting and a great cast from Vienna of the day - no dialogue


An improvement over the Beecham in virtually every respect.



> Klemperer - The cast could hardly be bettered but K is a bit slow but the whole thing adds up


This is a very, very serious take on the opera. I like the approach, but I must strongly disagree about the cast. It looks good on paper, but there are a couple of cast members who leave a great deal to be desired. Gedda is particular is an inelegant, clumsy Tamino, and Frick sounds out of sorts as Sarastro. Popp is terrific, though.



> Bohm - The only reason for having this to me is Wunderlich superb Tamino. But that is quite a factor


Crass is an excellent Sarastro, too.



> Abbado - probably the best all-round modern version with some dialogue and a superb young cast which shares the elderly conductor's enthusiasm for the music. Absolutely bewitching
> Mackerras - superbly conducted but the cast is not quite up to the standard of some of the others


Completely agree about these. Among modern instrument versions, I'm also fond of Solti 1, Sawallisch, and Haitink, all of which are very strongly cast.

Now 3 HIP versions:



> Ostman - bought it because it was cheap but it is really good
> Christie - much praised by the critics but it is a bit slow almost like Klemperer conducting
> Jacobs - this is a superb version if you don't mind having all the dialogue which is accompanied in places . As a non Gernan speaker I find it a bit tedious but of course you can always skip the dialogue on CD . One of Jacobs bizarre experiments which hasn't really worked . The actual performance is superb


I certainly agree about Jacobs and Ostman, my two favorite HIP versions. I agree that the Christie is overrated - conducting aside, the cast is pretty nondescript.


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## Hermastersvoice (Oct 15, 2018)

Problem with Abbado is the attempts at emulating HIP sound. String playing without vibrato sounds like a cat wailing, I never understood the purpose of this trick. And he doesn’t have the big personalities of Klemperer, the instantly recognizable voices.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Hermastersvoice said:


> Problem with Abbado is the attempts at emulating HIP sound. String playing without vibrato sounds like a cat wailing, I never understood the purpose of this trick. *And he doesn't have the big personalities of Klemperer, the instantly recognizable voices.*


Is that a bad thing? It is a young cast which fits. Remember that Klemperer had two 'unknowns' at the time - Janowitz and Popp.


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## Hermastersvoice (Oct 15, 2018)

Yes, DavidA, few things make me as excited as the instantly recognizable voice. When Gedda, Schwarzkopf - or Callas - start to thing you recognize their tone straight away and it’s thrilling. Popp and Janowitz both have that quality. On the other hand the evenly produced, stylistically correct vocal production paired to the the indistinguishable voice is just - boring.


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

Clouds Weep Snowflakes said:


> So it seems you people generally agree with me that this opera is good music...wait, it's Mozart, anything he composed is good music...would you agree on that too?


I'm not so sure his dance music is quite what would be termed 'good' music.

N.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Hermastersvoice said:


> Yes, DavidA, few things make me as excited as the instantly recognizable voice. When Gedda, Schwarzkopf - or Callas - start to thing you recognize their tone straight away and it's thrilling. Popp and Janowitz both have that quality. On the other hand the evenly produced, stylistically correct vocal production paired to the the indistinguishable voice is just - boring.


Well I'd hardly think that singers of the calibre of Papp and Roschmann are boring. The Tamino on Abaddo is superior to Gedda.


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## wkasimer (Jun 5, 2017)

DavidA said:


> Well I'd hardly think that singers of the calibre of Papp and Roschmann are boring. The Tamino on Abaddo is superior to Gedda.


And sometimes an instantly recognizable voice is a liability. As soon as I hear the voice of Elisabeth Schwarzkopf, I find myself leaping for the remote control.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

wkasimer said:


> And sometimes an instantly recognizable voice is a liability. As soon as I hear the voice of Elisabeth Schwarzkopf, I find myself leaping for the remote control.


A good point (though Elisabeth and I get along quite well). I am careful never to hear the voices of Martha Modl and Astrid Varnay, which has had the healthful effect of preventing me from buying too many Wagner recordings.


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## Hermastersvoice (Oct 15, 2018)

I don’t think I at any point intimated that Pape and Roschmann are boring. Rather, I’d rather listen to the singer with a personal way of expression and individual timbre than the stylistically impeccable one which I don’t recognise. Schwarzkopf and Gedda are good examples of the former category.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Hermastersvoice said:


> I don't think I at any point intimated that Pape and Roschmann are boring. Rather, I'd rather listen to the singer with a personal way of expression and individual timbre than the stylistically impeccable one which I don't recognise. Schwarzkopf and Gedda are good examples of the former category.


You mean you like the predictable?


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## Eva Yojimbo (Jan 30, 2016)

Spellbinding music marred by a most unfortunate libretto.


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## WildThing (Feb 21, 2017)

Eva Yojimbo said:


> Spellbinding music marred by a most unfortunate libretto.


That seems to be the widely held opinion, but I don't agree. I think it's a wonderful libretto.


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## Eva Yojimbo (Jan 30, 2016)

WildThing said:


> That seems to be the widely held opinion, but I don't agree. I think it's a wonderful libretto.


It's not bad if you can ignore the blatant sexism and racism. I'm not typically one to put art through the SJW grinder, but even I find it difficult to overlook in that instance.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Eva Yojimbo said:


> It's not bad if you can ignore the blatant sexism and racism. I'm not typically one to put art through the SJW grinder, but even I find it difficult to overlook in that instance.


Well it was written by a man of his time. You just have to realise that and put up with these things.


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## Eva Yojimbo (Jan 30, 2016)

DavidA said:


> Well it was written by a man of his time. You just have to realise that and put up with these things.


I understand that, which is why I merely called the libretto "unfortunate." We always hope that great art can transcend the negative aspects of its time period, though, and it's especially disappointing when a work that's essentially a philosophical allegory for enlightenment fails so badly at doing that.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Eva Yojimbo said:


> I understand that, which is why I merely called the libretto "unfortunate." We always hope that great art can transcend the negative aspects of its time period, though, and it's especially disappointing when a work that's essentially a philosophical allegory for enlightenment fails so badly at doing that.


I like the often silly dialogue of _Flute_ rather severely pruned, and I'd say there would be no disrespect to Mozart in altering it, so long as the opera's basic concept and its music are preserved.


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## Eva Yojimbo (Jan 30, 2016)

Woodduck said:


> I like the often silly dialogue of _Flute_ rather severely pruned, and I'd say there would be no disrespect to Mozart in altering it, so long as the opera's basic concept and its music are preserved.


Agreed, though some of the sexism is written into the basic concept and sung parts as well, so you couldn't eliminate all the nastiness by pruning the dialogue.


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## Poppin' Fresh (Oct 24, 2009)

I just got back from a wonderful production of this opera yesterday, and I didn't see or hear an ounce of nastiness in it. Instead what I saw was an opera whose music and story have shared joy and beauty with innumerable people ever since it was an instant success and has been one of the most popular operas in the repetoire for over two centuries. Certainly their was plenty of laughter and delight in the theater yesterday. I saw an opera who one of the greatest of all intellects, Goethe, was so taken with that he began work on a sequel. An opera where both philosophers and children still watch it with equal amounts of levity and gravity, laughing at the bird-man Papageno, who claims to have slain a dragon, and wondering what the three ladies and the three boys mean, and the three temples, and the three initial chords. And I saw an opera, that as Mozart called it, is a happy work, at times a radiantly beautiful work, a fairy tale. Yes, it contains some elements that can come across as distasteful to a modern audience. But when have we ever turned to fairy tales for political correctness? And instead of taking the story depicted in the Magic Flute literally, if we can view it symbolically it becomes an incredibly powerful fairty tale at that -- one that raises question about life and death itself. About renewal, rebirth, and regeneration -- like Isis and Osiris, those important figures in ritual connected with the dead who symbolize rebirth and embody the union of the female and male principles that in persons of Pamina and Tamino the Magic Flute is very much about.

Its main conflict is between the star-flaming Queen of the Night and the sun-lit Egypitian wise man, Sarastro. The queen is one of a long line of matriarchs in the history of literature and religion. She has been compared to Isis and Ishtar, to Demeter and Juno. Grieving and sympathetic at first, then turning savage and vindictive. The Sarastro who opposes her is akin to the Persian Zoroaster, who heralds the destruction of one era and the dawn of a new one. This makes him neither good nor evil, but an ambivalent force like the Queen he confronts, reperesenting different principles. And though they both see each other as evil and villanous, neither is right. What we see depicted is the movement from magic to ritual, and taboo giving way to morality. Looked at symbollically, even Monostatos can be viewed differently. He serves the ambivalent Sarastro, who abducts those he is to purify, subjecting them to cruel ordeals, yet behind the frightening exterior is ultimately benevelont and just. Monostatos is a shadow figure who, like the Satans of literature (Lucifer in Paradise Lost, Caliban in The Tempest, Mephostophiles in Faust) is not so much evil as the unwitting instrument of good.

There's a moment in the opera when Tamino wonders "O everlasting night, when will you end?" And mysterious voices answer "Soon, soon, young man, or never." It's a moment Ingmar Bergman made much of and said "Those measures are to me the center of all Mozart and also of the whole history of civilization." I think there's something to that.


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## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

Woodduck said:


> I like the often silly dialogue of _Flute_ rather severely pruned, and I'd say there would be no disrespect to Mozart in altering it, so long as the opera's basic concept and its music are preserved.


I have a book called "Preface to The Magic Flute" - basically traces the origins and sources of the opera - the substance of the opera written down by Schikanaeder - and the style - various plot devices that are considered trademarks of that genre into which Die Zauberflote is cast. The oafish papegno for example - as a type would have been expected and recognised at once by contemporary audiences. Its certainly worth a read if you want to understand the dramatic rationale behind what looks to us like the silliness of the plot/dialogue.

I would not have the opera any other way than what it is - dialogue and music. It is in fact silliness to suggest otherwise - as Mozart, for example, composed papegno's trademark music for this particular character and no other. Same with monastos, queen of night etc.


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## Guest (Mar 18, 2019)

Eva Yojimbo said:


> Spellbinding music marred by a most unfortunate libretto.


Please - most opera librettos, absent the music, appear juvenile at best. Remove the music and Wagner's Tristan libretto looks like the lovesick ramblings of an angsty teen paid by the syllable.


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## Brahmsianhorn (Feb 17, 2017)

Favorite recordings are:

Beecham
Karajan ‘51
Furtwängler ‘51
Fricsay


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## Eva Yojimbo (Jan 30, 2016)

DrMike said:


> Please - most opera librettos, absent the music, appear juvenile at best. Remove the music and Wagner's Tristan libretto looks like the lovesick ramblings of an angsty teen paid by the syllable.


There's a difference between saying most librettos don't function as great literature, as indeed they don't, and saying one is (partially) serving as a vehicle for sexism and racism.


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## MaxKellerman (Jun 4, 2017)

Eva Yojimbo said:


> There's a difference between saying most librettos don't function as great literature, as indeed they don't, and saying one is (partially) serving as a vehicle for sexism and racism.


Saying it is a "vehicle" for sexism and racism is one interpretation of the work, but one that doesn't accord with my own experience of it. There is far too much nuance and complexity in the story and in the attitudes, actions and outcomes of the various characters to simply say it is a vehicle for any ideological content. Like all works of art, the audience is left to come to their own conclusions about its meaning.


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## Eva Yojimbo (Jan 30, 2016)

MaxKellerman said:


> Saying it is a "vehicle" for sexism and racism is one interpretation of the work, but one that doesn't accord with my own experience of it. There is far too much nuance and complexity in the story and in the attitudes, actions and outcomes of the various characters to simply say it is a vehicle for any ideological content. Like all works of art, the audience is left to come to their own conclusions about its meaning.


It's certainly about _more_ than those things, but one would have to be willfully obtuse to ignore or interpret away their presence. There's no way that Monostatos isn't a racist caricature, no matter how else he might also be interpreted; and when one of the symbols of the enlightenment philosophy says: "A woman does little, gossips much," there's no non-sexist way to interpret that.


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## MaxKellerman (Jun 4, 2017)

Eva Yojimbo said:


> It's certainly about _more_ than those things, but one would have to be willfully obtuse to ignore or interpret away their presence. There's no way that Monostatos isn't a racist caricature, no matter how else he might also be interpreted; and when one of the symbols of the enlightenment philosophy says: "A woman does little, gossips much," there's no non-sexist way to interpret that.


One doesn't have to ignore or interpret away their presence. It can be everything you say and still be a supreme artistic achievement, which it is.

Monostatos is a bit of a stock caricature, and Sarastro and the priests make some misogynistic remarks about women being chatty and of weaker mind. This is like, eye-rolling, laughably wrong-headed stuff. You may view it as malicious, I view it as silly and harmless. But there's no ideological indoctrination happening here, and no reason why we should take Sarastro's opinions on women seriously. To me he comes across as a good man guided by worthwhile principles despite his flaws. And in the end the character of Pamina, a woman character with plenty of virtues who has really been the one to overcome the most harrowing trials in the opera is the one who leads Tamino into the final trial. Her strength of character impresses everyone, including Sarastro, and she is allowed to join the order of initiates. So for a story that's supposedly a "vehicle" for sexism, it certainly makes a confused mess of that message. It could just as easily be argued the opera is a "vehicle" for not judging a person or a situation by its appearance.


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## Eva Yojimbo (Jan 30, 2016)

MaxKellerman said:


> One doesn't have to ignore or interpret away their presence. It can be everything you say and still be a supreme artistic achievement, which it is.


On this we agree whole-heartedly.



MaxKellerman said:


> Monostatos is a bit of a stock caricature, and Sarastro and the priests make some misogynistic remarks about women being chatty and of weaker mind. This is like, eye-rolling, laughably wrong-headed stuff. You may view it as malicious, I view it as silly and harmless. But there's no ideological indoctrination happening here, and no reason why we should take Sarastro's opinions on women seriously. To me he comes across as a good man guided by worthwhile principles despite his flaws. And in the end the character of Pamina, a woman character with plenty of virtues who has really been the one to overcome the most harrowing trials in the opera is the one who leads Tamino into the final trial. Her strength of character impresses everyone, including Sarastro, and she is allowed to join the order of initiates. So for a story that's supposedly a "vehicle" for sexism, it certainly makes a confused mess of that message. It could just as easily be argued the opera is a "vehicle" for not judging a person or a situation by its appearance.


There's a reason I used "unfortunate" to describe the libretto rather than "terrible," or "worthless," or some other adjective for bad; and that's because there's actually much that's quite good in it, and as an allegory for moving towards enlightenment it's even, in its own way, quite brilliant; as is its "disillusionment" structure which, much like Hitchock's Vertigo, lets us linger under the delusion of one thing (that Pamino is trying to rescue Pamina from the clutches of a villain) before pulling the rug out from under us about midway through. I've always thought this disillusionment structure, which is relatively rare in literature and film, is fascinating in its potential for its various affects on an audience. I do not view its racism and sexism as malicious. These were just part-and-parcel of the culture of the time, and people engaged in them without much conscious or reflective thought; but that in itself works against the theme of enlightenment that's being expressed in an otherwise rather noble way.

An old friend of mine thought Flute Mozart's greatest achievement, and his best argument was that the character of Pamina, in its own way, works against the sexism of Sarastro and the priests. He analyzed and concluded that she was the character who was the most musically individualized, as well as the one that evolved the most (compared with the more "static" personalities and style of Pamino, Sarastro, and Papageno). I could even argue, in the spirit of what William Blake wrote about John Milton, that the reason Mozart wrote in fetters when scoring Sarastro and the Priests, but at liberty (and most vividly) when scoring the Queen of the Night, was because he was a true composer and of the Queen's party without knowing it. To me, the biggest problem is that the libretto itself undoubtedly correlates the QOTN with "darkness" and "irrationality" and "vengeance" and all the negative properties that have traditionally been assigned to women, while portraying men as the guardians of truth, enlightenment, rationality, and "light." The libretto certainly doesn't present Sarastro and the Priests with any discernible, villainous flaws the way it does the QOTN, so there's no doubting that it wants us to view it in a very polarized good/bad manner. If anything, Mozart's music is the only thing working against this, both with the vividness of the QOTN's music, and the musical transformation and individualization of Pamina.


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## MaxKellerman (Jun 4, 2017)

Eva Yojimbo said:


> On this we agree whole-heartedly.
> 
> There's a reason I used "unfortunate" to describe the libretto rather than "terrible," or "worthless," or some other adjective for bad; and that's because there's actually much that's quite good in it, and as an allegory for moving towards enlightenment it's even, in its own way, quite brilliant; as is its "disillusionment" structure which, much like Hitchock's Vertigo, lets us linger under the delusion of one thing (that Pamino is trying to rescue Pamina from the clutches of a villain) before pulling the rug out from under us about midway through. I've always thought this disillusionment structure, which is relatively rare in literature and film, is fascinating in its potential for its various affects on an audience. I do not view its racism and sexism as malicious. These were just part-and-parcel of the culture of the time, and people engaged in them without much conscious or reflective thought; but that in itself works against the theme of enlightenment that's being expressed in an otherwise rather noble way.
> 
> An old friend of mine thought Flute Mozart's greatest achievement, and his best argument was that the character of Pamina, in its own way, works against the sexism of Sarastro and the priests. He analyzed and concluded that she was the character who was the most musically individualized, as well as the one that evolved the most (compared with the more "static" personalities and style of Pamino, Sarastro, and Papageno). I could even argue, in the spirit of what William Blake wrote about John Milton, that the reason Mozart wrote in fetters when scoring Sarastro and the Priests, but at liberty (and most vividly) when scoring the Queen of the Night, was because he was a true composer and of the Queen's party without knowing it. To me, the biggest problem is that the libretto itself undoubtedly correlates the QOTN with "darkness" and "irrationality" and "vengeance" and all the negative properties that have traditionally been assigned to women, while portraying men as the guardians of truth, enlightenment, rationality, and "light." The libretto certainly doesn't present Sarastro and the Priests with any discernible, villainous flaws the way it does the QOTN, so there's no doubting that it wants us to view it in a very polarized good/bad manner. If anything, Mozart's music is the only thing working against this, both with the vividness of the QOTN's music, and the musical transformation and individualization of Pamina.


So to be clear, I fully agree that there are disagreeable elements in the opera, but object to the idea that the work as a whole is disfigured by those elements or that it promotes those prejudices espoused by some of the characters in it. I've already given one example: Sarastro and the Priests may tout themselves as guardians of truth and rationality, but it turns out they get an education on separating appearance from reality and bigotry from wisdom as well.

Beyond that I will add that while on one level The Magic Flute certainly is an allegory for The Enlightenment, and personal enlightenment is one of its themes, its much more than that as well. It embodies many universal themes, presented in brilliantly evocative symbolism, which is one of the reasons it still resonates with modern audiences. And I disagree with with your opinion that "there's no doubting that it wants us to view it in a very polarized good/bad manner." I don't believe it is nearly as polarized as you do. Neither Sarastro or The Queen are depicted as entirely good or entirely bad, and just as there's much one can find sympathy with in The Queen's position, Sarastro also makes some highly questionable decisions that we as an audience can debate: kidnapping someone, even if you believe you have their best insterest at heart, is still wrong. The two characters represent diametrically opposed forces, not good or evil.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

The plot and text of Zauberflote are unambiguously sexist. It presents a world divided into two realms, one ruled by a woman, a creature of darkness (the Queen of the Night), the other by a man, an embodiment of light (Sarastro). Women are shown as defective by nature; they must repudiate their darker natures and submit to the wisdom and will of men if they are to assume their proper role in life and find happiness.

A quick perusal of Zauberflote's libretto brings up the following references to women's role and character:

PAPAGENO 
I wish I had a trap for girls -
I'd catch them by the dozen then.
I'd keep them in a cage at home,
and all the girls would be mine alone...

PAPAGENO
To share the sweet emotion
is woman's foremost duty.

SPEAKER
Has a woman so deceived you? -
A woman does little, gossips much...

SARASTRO
A man must guide your heart,
for without that, every woman
tends to overstep her natural sphere.

TWO PRIESTS
Guard yourself from women's tricks;
this is the first duty of our Order.
Many a wise man has been deceived,
has failed and never seen his error;
finding himself at last abandoned,
his loyalty repaid with scorn! -
In vain were all his efforts:
death and despair were his reward.

TAMINO
Only idle women's talk,
but invented by deceivers...
She is a woman, with a woman's mind!

INITIATES (from within)
The sacred threshold is defiled!
Away with the women, to Hell!

The Queen of the Night, devoid even of true maternal affection, vows to disown Pamina if she fails to kill Sarastro:

Hell's vengeance seethes in my heart;
the flames of death and despair engulf me!
If Sarastro dies not by your hand,
you will be my daughter no more.
Forever repudiated, forever abandoned,
forever destroyed be all the ties of nature
if Sarastro's blood is not shed by your hand! -
Hear, hear, hear me, ye gods of vengeance - hear!
- a mother's vow!

At the end of the opera, the Queen, seeing that her daughter has gone over to the side of male enlightenment, declares her intention to give Pamina to Monastotos - the stupid, lecherous black man whose race makes him the exception to the depiction of men as virtuous - but she and her female attendants are completely destroyed by Sarastro. Pamina is now free to live happily after by the side of her man, in a world radiant with gloriously arrogant masculinity.

Mozart, just as he does in _Cosi fan tutte,_ wraps all this repugnant misogyny in music of radiant beauty.


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

Sarastro, his followers, Tamino and Papageno are without doubt sexist characters, but does that make the opera sexist? Whilst I think in this case Mozart probably did agree with the views of those characters and there is a case for saying that the work is sexist, can that actually be so. The work can be performed in numerous different ways, each of which would be an interpretation of the opera. A production could highlight and legitimise the sexism of the libretto and therefore that _interpretation_ would indeed be sexist. However a different production could make different choices and thus not be sexist. If different interpretations of a work can be sexist or not, then how can the original work itself be sexist?

Going back to the alleged racism in the character of Monostatos, does he have to be black? He can be interpreted in a racist way or alternatively be played as a white character. The same goes for Otello, if the tenor isn't blacked up does the opera _itself_ suddenly transform and isn't racist anymore?

I also wonder who decides on the interpretation of a work of art. What if I think it's sexist and another person doesn't? Whose opinion trumps the other, or do we have to take a poll of the audience to see where the majority lies? What if people in one place or time don't think it's offensive, but those in another do? It seems to me that the only person who has authority to say that a work is racist/sexist etc. is the creator as they are the only person who has a unique relationship with that work. What if the creator isn't telling the truth?

N.


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

Woodduck said:


> Mozart, just as he does in _Cosi fan tutte,_ wraps all this repugnant misogyny in music of radiant beauty.


As I recall I made my feelings known about Cosi in another thread a couple of years or so back. Something about mince as I recall.:lol:


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

The Conte said:


> Sarastro, his followers, Tamino and Papageno are without doubt sexist characters, but does that make the opera sexist? Whilst I think in this case Mozart probably did agree with the views of those characters and there is a case for saying that the work is sexist, can that actually be so. The work can be performed in numerous different ways, each of which would be an interpretation of the opera. A production could highlight and legitimise the sexism of the libretto and therefore that _interpretation_ would indeed be sexist. However a different production could make different choices and thus not be sexist. If different interpretations of a work can be sexist or not, then how can the original work itself be sexist?
> 
> Going back to the alleged racism in the character of Monostatos, does he have to be black? He can be interpreted in a racist way or alternatively be played as a white character. The same goes for Otello, if the tenor isn't blacked up does the opera _itself_ suddenly transform and isn't racist anymore?
> 
> ...


To this I would say: yes the opera is sexist. Sexism inheres in the basic structure of the plot - the female realm of darkness versus the male world of light, the redemption of woman by her deliverance from the female realm and her incorporation into the male realm, and the final, total destruction of the former by the latter. (There is not, be it noted, a reconciliation of the two, lest anyone suggest some quasi-oriental yin/yang polarity.) Woman must renounce her primitive feminine essence and live according to the exalted precepts of male wisdom. This view is not incidental but fundamental to the symbolism of the opera, and the text reinforces it several times in plain language.

Monastatos is very definitely intended to be a racist caricature, complete with the ugly implication that black men are sexual predators on white women. Lusting after Pamina, he says:

Every creature feels the joy of love,
and bill and coo and hug and kiss -
but I must forego love
because a black man is ugly!
Have I not been given a heart?
Am I not flesh and blood?
To live forever without a wife
would really be like hellfire.
So, because I live, I will
bill and coo, kiss, be tender! -
Dear, good moon, forgive me:
a white skin has seduced me!
White is beautiful, I must kiss her:
therefore, moon, hide your face from me!

At the end of the opera, the evil Queen's last act before she is destroyed by Sarastro is to approve the giving of her supposedly beloved daughter to this predator.

_Zauberflote_ has other themes and meanings (fortunately), and a production can choose to emphasize them, but without radical changes to the work's basic structure the underlying sexual symbolism can't be concealed. All we can really do is decide for ourselves how important it is to us. Knowing it's there, I just choose to enjoy the music.


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## Jacck (Dec 24, 2017)

Woodduck said:


> To this I would say: yes the opera is sexist. Sexism inheres in the basic structure of the plot - the female realm of darkness versus the male world of light, the redemption of woman by her deliverance from the female realm and her incorporation into the male realm, and the final, total destruction of the former by the latter. (There is not, be it noted, a reconciliation of the two, lest anyone suggest some quasi-oriental yin/yang polarity.) Woman must renounce her primitive feminine essence and live according to the exalted precepts of male wisdom. This view is not incidental but fundamental to the symbolism of the opera, and the text reinforces it several times in plain language..


I have heard the opera, although I never bothered to follow the libretto, but still I believe what you say is probably not true. Based on what you wrote here, the male / female characters are symbolic. The male symbolizes spirituality, the female the carnal side that holds us bound to the world. And that the male destroys the female is symbolizes the state of spiritual enlightenment, the victory of spirit of over matter. I doubt he meant it in a sexist way, to imply that females are worse than males. Rather, each of us has within his soul the spiritual and the carnal. But I might be wrong, because as I said, I never bothered to understand the opera.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Jacck said:


> I have heard the opera, although I never bothered to follow the libretto, but still I believe what you say is probably not true. Based on what you wrote here, the male / female characters are symbolic. The male symbolizes spirituality, the female the carnal side that holds us bound to the world. And that the male destroys the female is symbolizes the state of spiritual enlightenment, the victory of spirit of over matter. I doubt he meant it in a sexist way, to imply that females are worse than males. Rather, each of us has within his soul the spiritual and the carnal. But I might be wrong, because as I said, I never bothered to understand the opera.


Your interpretation begs the question: WHY does maleness symbolize "spirituality," and femaleness "the carnal side that holds us bound to the world"? Might not this dichotomy be sexist in itself? To hold something in bondage is not a benign act. Might such imagery be created by men who both fear and seek to dominate their "carnal" side? Is the whole idea of "spirituality" as an escape from "carnality" a symptom of male fear of the feminine?

Wagner's _Parsifal_ would seem to suggest this. The parallels and differences between that opera and _Flute_ are interesting to consider.


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## Jacck (Dec 24, 2017)

Woodduck said:


> Your interpretation begs the question: WHY does maleness symbolize "spirituality," and femaleness "the carnal side that holds us bound to the world"? Might not this dichotomy be sexist in itself? To hold something in bondage is not a benign act. Might such imagery be created by men who both fear and seek to dominate their "carnal" side? Is the whole idea of "spirituality" as an escape from "carnality" a symptom of male fear of the feminine?
> 
> Wagner's _Parsifal_ would seem to suggest this. The parallels and differences between that opera and _Flute_ are interesting to consider.


I am not sure about this particular opera, but the metaphor view of male spirituality, female carnality is an old Catholic one; and Catholic church was of course sexist, allowing only males into their highest hierarchy. But I would understand the whole thing within the Mozart opera in a symbolic manner. The male side is our spirituality, purity, the female side is the carnal side that leads to bondage.


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## MaxKellerman (Jun 4, 2017)

Jacck said:


> I am not sure about this particular opera, but the metaphor view of male spirituality, female carnality is an old Catholic one; and Catholic church was of course sexist, allowing only males into their highest hierarchy. But I would understand the whole thing within the Mozart opera in a symbolic manner. The male side is our spirituality, purity, the female side is the carnal side that leads to bondage.


I think it can be looked at many ways; a convincing case can also be made for intuition vs. reason, or even the unconscious vs. consciousness.


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## Open Book (Aug 14, 2018)

My first experience with this opera is with older recordings with mostly German casts (except I avoid Peter Schreier as Tamino). I recommend Böhm or Klemperer. This opera is so German. I have some experience with German so I even prefer the inclusion of the spoken dialogue. I don't like English translations.

There was a Metropolitan Opera production in 2017 that I saw live in HD that made quite an impression. It was conducted by James Levine and featured superb young singers Charles Castronovo, Golda Schultz, Markus Werba, and Kathryn Lewek. And old René Pape.

One can subscribe to the Met's archives and hopefully this one is available there - I've been meaning to look into subscribing.


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## Larkenfield (Jun 5, 2017)

Jacck said:


> I am not sure about this particular opera, but the metaphor view of male spirituality, female carnality is an old Catholic one; and Catholic church was of course sexist, allowing only males into their highest hierarchy. But I would understand the whole thing within the Mozart opera in a symbolic manner. The male side is our spirituality, purity, the female side is the carnal side that leads to bondage.


It's man's _desire_ for woman that's the carnality and not necessarily that the woman's nature is fundamental carnal and not spiritual any more than man's is. Then man compounds the misunderstanding by blaming the woman because he desires her. Neither sex exclusively embodies spirituality and carnality regardless of the religious Catholic doctrine, and it's easy to see through that. Temptation is too often blamed on women as being carnal when it's the men who are actively chasing and seducing them. What exactly is spiritual about _that_? But sometimes the differences are played up in a conventional setting.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

In Western culture, the female has been blamed for the failings of the male since Eve. Life springs from the womb, and so the pagans had goddesses. But to the Church the v****a was the dark abyss of man's destruction, and in order not to banish the eternal feminine altogether it had to replace Venus with a Virgin. This succeeded in elevating "spirituality" over "carnality," cutting man in half.

Sarastro and the Queen of the Night are those halves, forever at war. And, of course, the male half has to win.

P.S. Those asterisks above are TC's testament to the persistence of the dichotomy and of male fear and domination of the female.


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## JosefinaHW (Nov 21, 2015)

Woodduck said:


> In Western culture, the female has been blamed for the failings of the male since Eve. Life springs from the womb, and so the pagans had goddesses. But to the Church the v****a was the dark abyss of man's destruction, and in order not to banish the eternal feminine altogether it had to replace Venus with a Virgin. This succeeded in elevating "spirituality" over "carnality," cutting man in half.
> 
> Sarastro and the Queen of the Night are those halves, forever at war. And, of course, the male half has to win.
> 
> P.S. Those asterisks above are TC's testament to the persistence of the dichotomy and of male fear and domination of the female.


The woman as life giver and symbol of the resurrection of life in the spring goes back ? 47,000 years? No, it was not the Catholic Church that was the first or foremost to attack the eternal feminine, the font of all life. I've never been interested in the mythological creation stories or the mythological as a method of instruction or explanation
But I think it was the Jews who first fought and fought the longest against the cult of fertility and Mother Earth. Christianity and Catholicism first inherited this from the Jews.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

JosefinaHW said:


> The woman as life giver and symbol of the resurrection of life in the spring goes back ? 47,000 years? No, it was not the Catholic Church that was the first or foremost to attack the eternal feminine, the font of all life. I've never been interested in the mythological creation stories or the mythological as a method of instruction or explanation
> But I think it was the Jews who first fought and fought the longest against the cult of fertility and Mother Earth. Christianity and Catholicism first inherited this from the Jews.


You're right. Suspicion of the female didn't begin with the Roman Catholic church. Judaism had a single god who tended to be very "alpha male." The church did go farther than Judaism, though, in viewing the "carnal" realm as sinful and woman as a danger to man. It did manage to hold on to, and venerate, a single feminine icon, who however could only be an idealized Mother and had to be "undefiled," thus harmless to men. That's where we get the "virgin/wh*re" complex which Wagner dramatizes in _Tannhauser._ Add to Mother, Virgin and Wh*re the Witch, and we have the various personae which men have assigned to women in order to keep them in their "place." The Queen of the Night, like the evil queen in Snow White, embodies at least two of these fractured archetypes.


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## JosefinaHW (Nov 21, 2015)

Here we go again discussing topics that are so complex and beyond the scope of this forum. Fortunately I will be dead and I'll get to see it from a completely different perspective, but it will be very interesting to see how CHristianity sheds or vo.its out the totally antithetical beliefs and philosophies that have polluted it: Zoroastrism--there are two equal powers in conflict in the universe (in complete contradiction to the power of JEsus' death and resurrection. Neo-Platonism based with its defect of not being able to see the both/and of the beauty of the flesh and the eternal. The list goes on. Bottom line: The Word became flesh. Becoming flesh was a cosmic event that transcended time: past, present, future. Concrete reality is saved and will return to God. It really isn't that complicated if u reflect upon the most essential beliefs of the Christian faith. Yet here we go, round and round, because some have to constantly spit their venom.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

JosefinaHW said:


> Here we go again discussing topics that are so complex and beyond the scope of this forum. Fortunately I will be dead and I'll get to see it from a completely different perspective, but it will be very interesting to see how CHristianity sheds or vo.its out the totally antithetical beliefs and philosophies that have polluted it: Zoroastrism--there are two equal powers in conflict in the universe (in complete contradiction to the power of JEsus' death and resurrection. Neo-Platonism based with its defect of not being able to see the both/and of the beauty of the flesh and the eternal. The list goes on. Bottom line: The Word became flesh. Becoming flesh was a cosmic event that transcended time: past, present, future. Concrete reality is saved and will return to God. It really isn't that complicated if u reflect upon the most essential beliefs of the Christian faith. Yet here we go, round and round, because some have to constantly spit their venom.


This is not going round and round, and no one is spitting venom. The subject is the male/female archetypes presented in "The Magic Flute."

Religion isn't the point here and there's no value to discussing its fine points ("on the one hand...but on the other hand..." blah blah blah). It's all a mixed bag and there's no need to sort it out. The point is in what people have _done,_ in this case to women and the concept of "woman," and what _ideas_ motivated them. The Western world developed under a complex heritage of ideas which were enshrined in law and custom by both church - in the name of Christ - and state - under the auspices of his/her majesty. The alliance of church and state has always been bad for both and for everyone else (except for the coffers of priests and kings), and until rather recently in history they've had a monopoly on power. History happened. It doesn't matter how many angels can dance of the head of a pin - or whether angels exist or can dance.

Under the weight of history, women have been caricatured and used by men, and their fight to live as complete human beings has been and is a hard one. Art provides a chronicle of it - which brings us back to the "noble" Sarastro and the "evil" Queen of the Night. The archetypes are clear as day in this fairy tale: Sarastro croons serenely, the Queen raves hysterically, and the men in the opera issue stern or jocular warnings to each other about "women's nature." _Cosi fan tutte._


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Interesting that nobody is discussing the obvious racism in The Magic Flute. Read the words of Monostatos, "a blackamoor."


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

KenOC said:


> Interesting that nobody is discussing the obvious racism in The Magic Flute. Read the words of Monostatos, "a blackamoor."


I'd be glad to oblige, Kemosabe, but even the clear case for sexism isn't making as much headway as one might hope. I'd half expect someone to propose that if we'd just perform the opera with Monastatos as a Norwegian (not from one of those "s***hole countries") the problem would go away. Nevertheless,

_MONOSTATOS
Every creature feels the joy of love,
and bill and coo and hug and kiss -
but I must forego love
because a black man is ugly!
Have I not been given a heart?
Am I not flesh and blood?
To live forever without a wife
would really be like hellfire.
So, because I live, I will
bill and coo, kiss, be tender! -
Dear, good moon, forgive me:
a white skin has seduced me!
White is beautiful, I must kiss her:
therefore, moon, hide your face from me! -
If this upsets you too much,
then close your eyes._

I did first bring this up in post #41. The world was not ready for it.


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## Zhdanov (Feb 16, 2016)

i'd suggest that Sarastro temple folks and Night Queen represent German freemasons and the Queen of England.


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## Zhdanov (Feb 16, 2016)

i mean there's more to *politics* in Die Zauberflote than anything else.


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

Woodduck said:


> But to the Church the v****a was the dark abyss of man's destruction, and in order not to banish the eternal feminine altogether it had to replace Venus with a Virgin.


In the interests of pedantism, it was _parts_ of the Church that held such views, in particular Saint Augustine and the order of monks founded in his name. It's a little known fact that the areas of Europe that took up the witch-phobia hysteria were those where there had been a high concentration of Augustinian institutions. Could there be a link between a belief that women are somehow inherently more sinful than men due to bringing sinners into the world and the persecution (of mainly women) due to 'mysterious, dark forces'?

N.


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

Woodduck said:


> _MONOSTATOS
> Every creature feels the joy of love,
> and bill and coo and hug and kiss -
> but I must forego love
> ...


Taking the words at face value, they are racist. Monostatos says that he is ugly because he is black and declares that 'white is beautiful'. However, it is odd that it's a _black_ character that is making these racist assertions! One interpretation is that Monostatos has become 'red-pilled' and realises his inferiority - not an interpretation that makes much sense to me and one that is indeed racist. There are other interpretations of this text, though. Perhaps Monostatos has been so oppressed by Sarastro's cult that he has started to internalise the racism he is a victim of. This would then be an example of how damaging and far reaching racism can be.

The interpretation that most easily comes to mind when I read those words is that Monostatos is being sarcastic. It is without doubt that Sarastro's cult is racist (but that doesn't necessarily make the opera racist). Monostatos' text as quoted reads to me much more like Shylock's "If you prick us, do we not bleed? If you tickle us, do we not laugh?", isn't Monostatos saying that 'every creature feels the joy of love, and bill and coo and hug and kiss' in equal measure? The text reads as bitingly sarcastic to me and a shout out against racism rather than support for it. Is not "therefore, moon, hide your face from me! - If this upsets you too much, then close your eyes." deliciously ironic? There's a case for setting _Flute_ as a cabaret and Monostatos's aria has all the sarcastic humour found in that genre.

N.


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## Eva Yojimbo (Jan 30, 2016)

MaxKellerman said:


> So to be clear, I fully agree that there are disagreeable elements in the opera, but object to the idea that the work as a whole is disfigured by those elements or that it promotes those prejudices espoused by some of the characters in it. I've already given one example: Sarastro and the Priests may tout themselves as guardians of truth and rationality, but it turns out they get an education on separating appearance from reality and bigotry from wisdom as well.
> 
> Beyond that I will add that while on one level The Magic Flute certainly is an allegory for The Enlightenment, and personal enlightenment is one of its themes, its much more than that as well. It embodies many universal themes, presented in brilliantly evocative symbolism, which is one of the reasons it still resonates with modern audiences. And I disagree with with your opinion that "there's no doubting that it wants us to view it in a very polarized good/bad manner." I don't believe it is nearly as polarized as you do. Neither Sarastro or The Queen are depicted as entirely good or entirely bad, and just as there's much one can find sympathy with in The Queen's position, Sarastro also makes some highly questionable decisions that we as an audience can debate: kidnapping someone, even if you believe you have their best insterest at heart, is still wrong. The two characters represent diametrically opposed forces, not good or evil.


I guess it depends on what you mean by "disfigured." It's marred in some way, unless you're the type that cares nothing about the themes that any opera expressed. I'm not entirely sure why you think Sarastro and the Priests "get an education on separating appearance from reality and bigotry from wisdom;" what in the opera are you basing this on?

Yes, I agree it's about plenty of stuff and because its highly symbolic nature can be interpreted many ways, but a multitude of possible interpretations doesn't erase face-value philosophy, it just adds a different layer to what's also obviously there. As for Sarastro and the Queen not being "entirely good or bad," I'd just refer you to Woodduck's posts on the matter. The Queen is very clearly villainized; Sarastro is not.


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## Eva Yojimbo (Jan 30, 2016)

Woodduck said:


> Mozart, just as he does in _Cosi fan tutte,_ wraps all this repugnant misogyny in music of radiant beauty.


I'll disagree with you slightly on saying the same repugnant misogyny applies to Cosi fan tutte. I think it was probably intended to be such, but I think it was far less successful in this than Zauberflote. The central premise of Cosi is that women are inconstant and flighty; it may be misogynistic to think that about just women, but it's not really to think that about human nature in general. The only time Cosi makes mention of male constancy is when Despina mocks the notion of it (essentially arguing "they're going to be unfaithful, you can too"). In fact, I'd argue that Cosi presents the characters' (but especially the men's) naivety as more of a flaw and source of derision as the women's inconstancy. If anything, the latter almost ends up being treated like a fact of human nature, something to be accepted, rather than something to be scorned. It's why Dorabella's Smanie implacabili is sung in a mock-heroic, opera seria style; it's essentially making fun of the notion of devotional love. It's why Don Alfonso and Despina are, essentially, the older, more experienced, voices of wisdom in the opera. Both are trying to enlighten the men/women about the real-life nature of sexual relationships. Now, perhaps you might say that to a late-18th century audience, Despina was meant less as a voice of wisdom and more as a voice of "evil temptation," but to that I'd say two things: one is that, it really doesn't come off that way in any discernible way I can tell. Two is that, it very much doesn't come off that way to more modern eyes and ears.

So, basically, while the opera may ostensibly be misogynistic in claiming "all women are like that," the essential thing it's deriding is less "the way women are," and more the notions that they are (or should be) any other way; and unlike with Flute, Cosi doesn't present the men as being the model-opposite. Instead, the central quartet, men and women, are naive fools; and the older duo, man and woman, are the enlightened advice-givers. Much like Flute, it's an opera of disillusionment--in its way even more profound than Flute, because Mozart pulls the trick of constantly mocking and having fun at their naivety, yet still making us feel something when Fiordiligi gives into temptation and Guglielmo is shattered--but one with much more balance in terms of how it presents male/female relationships.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Eva Yojimbo said:


> I'll disagree with you slightly on saying the same repugnant misogyny applies to Cosi fan tutte. I think it was probably intended to be such, but I think it was far less successful in this than Zauberflote. The central premise of Cosi is that women are inconstant and flighty; it may be misogynistic to think that about just women, but it's not really to think that about human nature in general. The only time Cosi makes mention of male constancy is when Despina mocks the notion of it (essentially arguing "they're going to be unfaithful, you can too"). In fact, I'd argue that Cosi presents the characters' (but especially the men's) naivety as more of a flaw and source of derision as the women's inconstancy. If anything, the latter almost ends up being treated like a fact of human nature, something to be accepted, rather than something to be scorned. It's why Dorabella's Smanie implacabili is sung in a mock-heroic, opera seria style; it's essentially making fun of the notion of devotional love. It's why Don Alfonso and Despina are, essentially, the older, more experienced, voices of wisdom in the opera. Both are trying to enlighten the men/women about the real-life nature of sexual relationships. Now, perhaps you might say that to a late-18th century audience, Despina was meant less as a voice of wisdom and more as a voice of "evil temptation," but to that I'd say two things: one is that, it really doesn't come off that way in any discernible way I can tell. Two is that, it very much doesn't come off that way to more modern eyes and ears.
> 
> So, basically, while the opera may ostensibly be misogynistic in claiming "all women are like that," the essential thing it's deriding is less "the way women are," and more the notions that they are (or should be) any other way; and unlike with Flute, Cosi doesn't present the men as being the model-opposite. Instead, the central quartet, men and women, are naive fools; and the older duo, man and woman, are the enlightened advice-givers. Much like Flute, it's an opera of disillusionment--in its way even more profound than Flute, because Mozart pulls the trick of constantly mocking and having fun at their naivety, yet still making us feel something when Fiordiligi gives into temptation and Guglielmo is shattered--but one with much more balance in terms of how it presents male/female relationships.


I agree that the men in _Cosi_ don't come off looking great either, and that the opera makes fun of human fallibility in general. To be consistent with that, though, it should have been titled "Cosi fan tutti" rather than "Cosi fan tutte," unless we're to take the tile itself as ironic.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

The Conte said:


> In the interests of pedantism, it was _parts_ of the Church that held such views, in particular Saint Augustine and the order of monks founded in his name. It's a little known fact that the areas of Europe that took up the witch-phobia hysteria were those where there had been a high concentration of Augustinian institutions. Could there be a link between a belief that women are somehow inherently more sinful than men due to bringing sinners into the world and the persecution (of mainly women) due to 'mysterious, dark forces'?
> 
> N.


The connection is quite logical, and facts apparently back it up.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

The Conte said:


> Taking the words at face value, they are racist. Monostatos says that he is ugly because he is black and declares that 'white is beautiful'. However, it is odd that it's a _black_ character that is making these racist assertions! One interpretation is that Monostatos has become 'red-pilled' and realises his inferiority - not an interpretation that makes much sense to me and one that is indeed racist. There are other interpretations of this text, though. Perhaps Monostatos has been so oppressed by Sarastro's cult that he has started to internalise the racism he is a victim of. This would then be an example of how damaging and far reaching racism can be.
> 
> The interpretation that most easily comes to mind when I read those words is that Monostatos is being sarcastic. It is without doubt that Sarastro's cult is racist (but that doesn't necessarily make the opera racist). Monostatos' text as quoted reads to me much more like Shylock's "If you prick us, do we not bleed? If you tickle us, do we not laugh?", isn't Monostatos saying that 'every creature feels the joy of love, and bill and coo and hug and kiss' in equal measure? The text reads as bitingly sarcastic to me and a shout out against racism rather than support for it. Is not "therefore, moon, hide your face from me! - If this upsets you too much, then close your eyes." deliciously ironic? There's a case for setting _Flute_ as a cabaret and Monostatos's aria has all the sarcastic humour found in that genre.
> 
> N.


It's impossible to know exactly what was in Schikaneder's mind when he wrote Monastatos' lines. Possibly all the things you suggest! I also think it's possible to read too much into it all, and that we'd do better just to look at the character and his behavior and take it at face value. Face value in this case is pretty unattractive. Tim Ashley writes for The Guardian:

_Monostatos is referred to throughout as "the wicked Moor", and is depicted as at once violent and unable to control his sexual feelings for Pamina, who is, of course, white and wants nothing to do with him. The text of his second act aria has been read as everything from a plea for compassion on the part of an abused outsider, to a heinous caricature: "Everything feels love's joys ... yet I must shun love because a black man is ugly ... white is beautiful, I need to kiss her" and so on for two long-ish stanzas. The music, meanwhile, with its whirring flutes and racing, excited strings, is at once exotic and neurotic, far removed from the slow, often magisterial examination of love we find elsewhere in the opera. What Monostatos is contemplating at this point is actually the perpetration of some kind of sexual assault, rather than a declaration of genuine affection. Whatever Mozart's intentions or beliefs, Monostatos comes across as an extremely suspect individual. 
_
I agree with Ashley that we have to accept what's in the opera and not, so to speak, "whitewash" it. This was 1791, and the slave trade was in full swing, building a whole new world on the literal backs of "inferior peoples." The best thing to be said for racism in _Flute_ is that it takes second place to sexism among this charming fairy tale's perversities, which are merely the perversities of Western civilization.


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## Eva Yojimbo (Jan 30, 2016)

Woodduck said:


> I agree that the men in _Cosi_ don't come off looking great either, and that the opera makes fun of human fallibility in general. To be consistent with that, though, it should have been titled "Cosi fan tutti" rather than "Cosi fan tutte," unless we're to take the tile itself as ironic.


The title may be the most misogynistic thing about Cosi. I don't think it was meant ironically, but it perhaps seems ironic after close analysis.


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## Eva Yojimbo (Jan 30, 2016)

The Conte said:


> In the interests of pedantism, it was _parts_ of the Church that held such views, in particular Saint Augustine and the order of monks founded in his name. It's a little known fact that the areas of Europe that took up the witch-phobia hysteria were those where there had been a high concentration of Augustinian institutions. *Could there be a link between a belief that women are somehow inherently more sinful than men due to bringing sinners into the world and the persecution (of mainly women) due to 'mysterious, dark forces'?*
> 
> N.


I've read or heard (can't remember where or from whom) that men have always associated women with being closer to nature because of childbirth; women bring forth human life the way nature brings forth other life, hence "Mother Nature." Men didn't understand nature or women; to them, both seemed in a constant state of flux with mysterious causes behind their states of being, whether they were calm or in a rage. Likewise, men associated themselves with order and law (hence "Father Time," time being one thing that orders our experience of reality), and the natural enemy of order and law is chaos and sin. So the persecution of women is man's way of trying to control something they consider naturally chaotic and sinful if left to their own devices. It was also a way of allowing men to indulge in their sexual desires while trying to repress the ability of female "chaos" to overthrow their reason through such desires; ie, control the object of desire so the object of desire can't control you. You see this symbolism clear as day (lol) in Flute. Consider that night is also an old symbol for chaos and sin. Why? Because man's senses are lessened at night, so everything is naturally more mysterious. Mystery creates anxiety, anxiety comes from a lack of control. So the symbols of Flute naturally tie into these classical male symbolic conceptions and associations between women, nature, night, etc.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Eva Yojimbo said:


> I've read or heard (can't remember where or from whom) that men have always associated women with being closer to nature because of childbirth; women bring forth human life the way nature brings forth other life, hence "Mother Nature." Men didn't understand nature or women; to them, both seemed in a constant state of flux with mysterious causes behind their states of being, whether they were calm or in a rage. Likewise, men associated themselves with order and law (hence "Father Time," time being one thing that orders our experience of reality), and the natural enemy of order and law is chaos and sin. So the persecution of women is man's way of trying to control something they consider naturally chaotic and sinful if left to their own devices. It was also a way of allowing men to indulge in their sexual desires while trying to repress the ability of female "chaos" to overthrow their reason through such desires; ie, control the object of desire so the object of desire can't control you. You see this symbolism clear as day (lol) in Flute. Consider that night is also an old symbol for chaos and sin. Why? Because man's senses are lessened at night, so everything is naturally more mysterious. Mystery creates anxiety, anxiety comes from a lack of control. So the symbols of Flute naturally tie into these classical male symbolic conceptions and associations between women, nature, night, etc.


Add to all this a male child's ambivalent relationship to the first woman in his life, his mother, on whom he must experience physical and emotional dependency along with a growing need to differentiate himself as both independent and specifically male, and we can understand even more fully the tendency of men to want to define and control women as a means of self-definition and self-control.

Whatever oppression women have experienced at the hands of men, I've always suspected that at the level of individual psychology it's easier to be female. Women, some famous man once said, "are the real people." As a man, I can hear that without reading it too literally or taking offense. Women, in general, know that they're women; men seem always to be trying to prove that they're men, and their fear of not measuring up is the source of much mischief in the world.


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## Jacck (Dec 24, 2017)

Woodduck said:


> Add to all this a male child's ambivalent relationship to the first woman in his life, his mother, on whom he must experience physical and emotional dependency along with a growing need to differentiate himself as both independent and specifically male, and we can understand even more fully the tendency of men to want to define and control women as a means of self-definition and self-control.
> 
> Whatever oppression women have experienced at the hands of men, I've always suspected that at the level of individual psychology it's easier to be female. Women, some famous man once said, "are the real people." As a man, I can hear that without reading it too literally or taking offense. Women, in general, know that they're women; men seem always to be trying to prove that they're men, and their fear of not measuring up is the source of much mischief in the world.


it is enough for a woman to bear children to be a respected member of society and no real skill is need for that. Men need to compete for resources, for power, for recognition in order to be able to attract women and procreate. This is biology. Women in general are more materialistic and more down to earth than men. I actually think that it is in many respects easier to be a woman than to be a man

https://blogs.wsj.com/chinarealtime...heir-mate-to-earn-double-their-salary-survey/


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Jacck said:


> it is enough for a woman to bear children to be a respected member of society and no real skill is need for that. Men need to compete for resources, for power, for recognition in order to be able to attract women and procreate. This is biology. Women in general are more materialistic and more down to earth than men. I actually think that it is in many respects easier to be a woman than to be a man
> 
> https://blogs.wsj.com/chinarealtime...heir-mate-to-earn-double-their-salary-survey/


Conventional sex roles persist and there are biological reasons for their origin, but just as the observation of obvious biological differences gave rise to overgeneralized sexual archetypes in primitive cultures, it has been used by us "civilized" people and our institutions as an excuse for the assignment of simplistic gender roles and a justification of inexcusable imbalances of power.

It may not take skill to bear a child, but it sure as hell takes skill to raise one - more skill, involving more of a person's faculties, than a lot of the jobs men want to be praised for performing. Women in general may be more secure in their psychological identities than men, and in that respect it may be easier to be a woman (I addressed this possibility in post #66). But in what other respects? And should we generalize across cultures? Women work outside the home too, you know, often not instead of but in addition to childrearing. How many men do you know who'd be up for that?

I don't know what the linked article is intended to add to this.


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## Eva Yojimbo (Jan 30, 2016)

Woodduck said:


> Add to all this a male child's ambivalent relationship to the first woman in his life, his mother, on whom he must experience physical and emotional dependency along with a growing need to differentiate himself as both independent and specifically male, and we can understand even more fully the tendency of men to want to define and control women as a means of self-definition and self-control.


"Mother is the first other," as Evangelion pithily termed it. Jung actually thought the Book of Genesis was an allegory about the rise of consciousness as an act of breaking away from the mother. Essentially, God was the mother, Eden was the womb, the snake was the individual voice that lured the mind towards independence, and the fruit of knowledge was the symbol of that individualized perception.



Woodduck said:


> Whatever oppression women have experienced at the hands of men, I've always suspected that at the level of individual psychology it's easier to be female. Women, some famous man once said, "are the real people." As a man, I can hear that without reading it too literally or taking offense. Women, in general, know that they're women; men seem always to be trying to prove that they're men, and their fear of not measuring up is the source of much mischief in the world.


I'd be really hesitant about making such generalizations. EG, women are almost twice as likely as men to suffer depression. Of course, it may be easier psychologically in other ways, and you're probably correct that society is, in general, more harsh on making men prove they're masculine rather than women proving they're feminine. It seems far more acceptable to be a masculine female than an effeminate male.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Eva Yojimbo said:


> "Mother is the first other," as Evangelion pithily termed it. Jung actually thought the Book of Genesis was an allegory about the rise of consciousness as an act of breaking away from the mother. Essentially, God was the mother, Eden was the womb, the snake was the individual voice that lured the mind towards independence, and the fruit of knowledge was the symbol of that individualized perception.


To bring it back to opera, the opening scene of Wagner's _Ring_ is readily interpreted as exactly that: a story of the rise of consciousness beginning with a breaking away from the mother, but a more modern (and psychoanalytically prescient) tale with Oedipal overtones. In this version the mother is nature, the womb the depths of the Rhine, the maternal-sexual (Oedipal) object of desire the mermaids, and the gold the symbol of conscious awakening equivalent to the fruit which, like it, is stolen in an act of rebellion. Like Eve's trangression, Alberich's theft is a _felix culpa,_ a "necessary evil" of self-assertion without which consciousness could not evolve.

If this archetypal situation is applied to _The Magic Flute,_ we might indulge in a more benign interpretation of the destruction of the Queen of the Night and view her as the mother from whom independence must be achieved, and to whom submission would mean a failure to achieve a mature consciousness. Of course this view would imply that Sarastro, fighting the devouring mother, exists in a state of infantile consciousness right up until the end of the opera, which seems wrong for a basso profundo with a beard.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

The way this guy explains the stuff is so cute:


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## JTS (Sep 26, 2021)

Woodduck said:


> Add to all this a male child's ambivalent relationship to the first woman in his life, his mother, on whom he must experience physical and emotional dependency along with a growing need to differentiate himself as both independent and specifically male, and we can understand even more fully the tendency of men to want to define and control women as a means of self-definition and self-control.
> 
> Whatever oppression women have experienced at the hands of men, *I've always suspected that at the level of individual psychology it's easier to be female.* Women, some famous man once said, "are the real people." As a man, I can hear that without reading it too literally or taking offense. Women, in general, know that they're women; men seem always to be trying to prove that they're men, and their fear of not measuring up is the source of much mischief in the world.


Only a man would say this!


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## JTS (Sep 26, 2021)

Woodduck said:


> I agree that the men in _Cosi_ don't come off looking great either, and that the opera makes fun of human fallibility in general. To be consistent with that, though, it should have been titled "Cosi fan tutti" rather than "Cosi fan tutte," unless we're to take the tile itself as ironic.


I think one must remember that the man who wrote the libretto of Cosi was himself a rake who once ran a brothel. He was also a buddy of Casanova. That was his view of women - creatures to be manipulated according to the male desires. It's all pretty despicable despite the glorious music. Of course when it was written there were few women's rights as we know today and women were very much at the mercy of men. Even upper class women would be desperate for rich suitor, hence the way they flung themselves at the 'Albanians'. Why updating it to modern times and women with mobile phones just doesn't work. Modern educated women are highly unlikely to be taken in like that.


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## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

I am not going to the trouble to argue en detail against all these most tired clichés but I'd like to know how IF the Magic Flute is such a terribly misogynistic piece, one can explain a piece like "Bei Männern, welche Liebe fühlen" which is as close to "equal rights" as one could expect for the 1790s and why the misogynist Isis cult have also "equal rites" as there is apparently no difference in the testing procedure or the "rank" they might have after initiation between Tamino and Pamina? We have a few misogynist remarks by Sarastro and a priest and the ambiguous/evil Queen of the Night but the practice as shown by these examples seems to be rather different.

Finally, although this is par for comic operas: Why are the men in the opera men wimps (Tamino, rescued by women), lechers (Monostatos), pompous pricks (Sarastro) or gullible braggarts (Papageno), if they are supposedly the better sex?

This is very common and I don't think it can be entirely explained by the common inversion (like la serva padrona) of comedy. The most sympathetic and capable character in Figaro is the female servant Susanna, the worst person is the Count. It's very similar in The Abduction with Blonde more capable than the passive Konstanze and the bumbling male characters. It's not quite as clear in Così and elsewhere but overall it is close enough. In Don Giovanni Zerlina is not half the stupid bumpkin Masetto is, Donna Elvira is the most human, if conflicted character, Anna at least sympathetic and Ottavio again a total loser, Leporello a pathetic wannabe Don, the Don attractively Byronic but clearly condemned as evil.

Taking characters from (comic) opera at face value one might as well conclude that Mozart wanted to overthrow the patriarchy with his portrayal of evil or stupid male vs. smart and feisty or at worst nobly and patiently suffering female characters...


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## JTS (Sep 26, 2021)

Kreisler jr said:


> I am not going to the trouble to argue en detail against all these most tired clichés but I'd like to know how IF the Magic Flute is such a terribly misogynistic piece, one can explain a piece like "Bei Männern, welche Liebe fühlen" which is as close to "equal rights" as one could expect for the 1790s and why the misogynist Isis cult have also "equal rites" as there is apparently no difference in the testing procedure or the "rank" they might have after initiation between Tamino and Pamina? We have a few misogynist remarks by Sarastro and a priest and the ambiguous/evil Queen of the Night but the practice as shown by these examples seems to be rather different.
> 
> Finally, although this is par for comic operas: Why are the men in the opera men wimps (Tamino, rescued by women), lechers (Monostatos), pompous pricks (Sarastro) or gullible braggarts (Papageno), if they are supposedly the better sex?
> 
> ...


Read the book Mozart's Women by Jane Glover


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Kreisler jr said:


> I am not going to the trouble to argue en detail against all these most tired clichés but I'd like to know how IF the Magic Flute is such a terribly misogynistic piece, one can explain a piece like "Bei Männern, welche Liebe fühlen" which is as close to "equal rights" as one could expect for the 1790s and why the misogynist Isis cult have also "equal rites" as there is apparently no difference in the testing procedure or the "rank" they might have after initiation between Tamino and Pamina? We have a few misogynist remarks by Sarastro and a priest and the ambiguous/evil Queen of the Night but the practice as shown by these examples seems to be rather different.
> 
> Finally, although this is par for comic operas: Why are the men in the opera men wimps (Tamino, rescued by women), lechers (Monostatos), pompous pricks (Sarastro) or gullible braggarts (Papageno), if they are supposedly the better sex?
> 
> ...


We've seen the same thing in popular TV shows over the decades, in which the women are always outsmarting the men, who tend to be bumbling and clueless despite their socially dominant positions. What it all shows, in my view, is the ambivalence with which men regard women, whom they secretly consider superior. As I watch male and female politicians nowadays, I sometimes find myself agreeing with this.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

JTS said:


> Only a man would say this!


Ha ha! No doubt you're right, but I suspect that men's identity problems are more innate to their psychobiology and women's are more the result of socially (i.e. male-imposed) roles and expectations. I could be wrong, of course, since society tries to impose a lot of stereotypical identities on all of us, and it can be hard for any individual to sort it all out.


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## JTS (Sep 26, 2021)

Woodduck said:


> Ha ha! *No doubt you're right,* but I suspect that men's identity problems are more innate to their psychobiology and women's are more the result of socially (i.e. male-imposed) roles and expectations. I could be wrong, of course, since society tries to impose a lot of stereotypical identities on all of us, and it can be hard for any individual to sort it all out.


I rest my case!


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## JTS (Sep 26, 2021)

Woodduck said:


> I'd be glad to oblige, Kemosabe, but even the clear case for sexism isn't making as much headway as one might hope. I'd half expect someone to propose that if we'd just perform the opera with Monastatos as a Norwegian (not from one of those "s***hole countries") the problem would go away. Nevertheless,
> 
> _MONOSTATOS
> Every creature feels the joy of love,
> ...


Of course there is racism in the Magic Flute. This is blatant racism. But this is what people of Vienna believed in Mozart's Day. It's blatant in the text of Shakespeare's and Verdi's Othello. For goodness sake it's not too far from what people believed in America in the days of segregation. Yes it's uncomfortable but it's those things in history we have to deal with. We either pull down statues and ban Mozart and Shakespeare or we deal with it. As someone has said the past was a different country and they thought differently in those days. A lot of the nonsense which is contained in the Magic Flute is the sort of rot which Schikaneder and Mozart were in to through their branch of freemasonry and is not to be taken too seriously. After all, the Magic Flute was written for the plebs not the aristocracy. Just happens to be the worlds greatest pantomime with the most sublime music ever


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

JTS said:


> I rest my case!


Saying that is the best way to keep the case open. If men aren't less secure in their identities than women, why are they constantly trying to prove and assert their masculinity, with both comical and ugly consequences? Why are boys who don't "act like boys" treated viciously by other boys? Why is it more acceptable for girls to be gender-nonconforming than it is for boys? Why are straight men far more intolerant of gay men than women are? Why has male homosexuality been considered far more threatening to society than lesbianism?

There is clearly something about being male - about having to define what it means to be male - that males find problematic. If females have an equivalent difficulty with their own gender - emphasis on _equivalent_ - I'd be happy to learn about it.


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## Meyerbeer Smith (Mar 25, 2016)

JTS said:


> Of course there is racism in the Magic Flute. This is blatant racism. But this is what people of Vienna believed in Mozart's Day. It's blatant in the text of Shakespeare's and Verdi's Othello. For goodness sake it's not too far from what people believed in America in the days of segregation. Yes it's uncomfortable but it's those things in history we have to deal with. We either pull down statues and ban Mozart and Shakespeare or we deal with it. As someone has said the past was a different country and they thought differently in those days. A lot of the nonsense which is contained in the Magic Flute is the sort of rot which Schikaneder and Mozart were in to through their branch of freemasonry and is not to be taken too seriously. After all, the Magic Flute was written for the plebs not the aristocracy. Just happens to be the worlds greatest pantomime with the most sublime music ever


Or we could widen the repertoire - like performing more Salieri. There's _Il mondo alla rovescia_, set on an island where women rule, and where men find themselves on the receiving end of the objectifying gaze; and _Die Neger_, where a black servant and a white maid sing an interracial love duet.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

JTS said:


> Of course there is racism in the Magic Flute. This is blatant racism. But this is what people of Vienna believed in Mozart's Day. It's blatant in the text of Shakespeare's and Verdi's Othello. For goodness sake it's not too far from what people believed in America in the days of segregation. Yes it's uncomfortable but it's those things in history we have to deal with. *We either pull down statues and ban Mozart and Shakespeare or we deal with it.* As someone has said the past was a different country and they thought differently in those days. A lot of the nonsense which is contained in the Magic Flute is the sort of rot which Schikaneder and Mozart were in to through their branch of freemasonry and is not to be taken too seriously. After all, the Magic Flute was written for the plebs not the aristocracy. Just happens to be the worlds greatest pantomime with the most sublime music ever


Somehow I doubt that anyone has proposed pulling down statues of Mozart or Shakespeare. But the alternative of "dealing with it" doesn't mean ignoring it. I'd say it means exactly the opposite, and that if we just shrug off historical racism without examining it we aren't dealing with it at all. Examining it certainly doesn't mean that we shouldn't enjoy _Zauberflote_ or any other work of art embodying questionable ideas. I find value in all the ways, serious or lighthearted, we can respond to great works, which are great precisely because they are layered and resonate in different ways.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Meyerbeer Smith said:


> Or we could widen the repertoire - like performing more Salieri. There's _Il mondo alla rovescia_, set on an island where women rule, and where men find themselves on the receiving end of the objectifying gaze; and _Die Neger_, where a black servant and a white maid sing an interracial love duet.


What a marvelous testament to Enlightenment free thought. Such works might be banned in parts of 21st-century America.


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## JTS (Sep 26, 2021)

Woodduck said:


> What a marvelous testament to Enlightenment free thought. Such works might be banned in parts of 21st-century America.


Some would not have such a positive view of Enlightenment free thought:

https://slate.com/news-and-politics...nt-seriously-requires-talking-about-race.html


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## JTS (Sep 26, 2021)

Woodduck said:


> Somehow I doubt that anyone has proposed pulling down statues of Mozart or Shakespeare. But the alternative of "dealing with it" doesn't mean ignoring it. I'd say it means exactly the opposite, and that if we just shrug off historical racism without examining it we aren't dealing with it at all. Examining it certainly doesn't mean that we shouldn't enjoy _Zauberflote_ or any other work of art embodying questionable ideas. I find value in all the ways, serious or lighthearted, we can respond to great works, which are great precisely because they are layered and resonate in different ways.


We can see the way students 'deal' with things today by responding with mass hysteria when their cherished 'safe spaces' of thought are invaded. This is the worrying thing - that young people today have bought into this ridiculous 'cancel culture' (see this example) rather than learning to think and discuss things through.

https://slippedisc.com/2021/10/yielding-to-student-protests-michigan-removes-bright-sheng/


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

Clouds Weep Snowflakes said:


> His last opera, it was first conducted less than three months before Mozart's death; your opinion(s) on it? I'm getting it on CD till the end of the month, the parts I listened to by now are very good!


*Love it! *

I haven't read the last few pages of posts so I don't know how this thread got off track, but I hope it can right itself soon.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

It's worth noting that coloratural passages are what makes the Queen of the Night stylistically unique among the characters. (traditional German comic dramatic works of the time tend to not contain coloratural passages).


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