# Learning to appreciate opera



## bravenewworld (Jan 24, 2016)

Hi,
As someone who has had an appreciation of classical music for a few years now, I've become more acutely aware of my deficiencies when it comes to opera. I have therefore decided, as is my wont, to immerse myself in the world of opera for some time so as to get a good feel for the genre, and, having achieved that, to be able to organically listen to any operas I come across with minimal exertion in understanding them and the mechanksms behind them.

Thus far, I have an appreciation of Purcell's operas and operettas, including Dido and Aeneas, King Arthur and Dioclesian. I do have some taste for Handel's operas, particularly Giulio Cesare in Egitto. I have also recently grown to like Il barbiere di Siviglia, and I have L'italiana in Algeri, Tancredi and La Cenerentola in the post at the moment. Unfortunately that's essentially it for opera right now.

So, my question is: where to from here? Would it be best for me to, say, progress through Italian opera, from Rossini to Verdi to Puccini, or would it be best for me to first listen to the greats from all countries, such as Mozart and Wagner's bests, and progress from there? And indeed, what are the essential operas that, in your opinion, I should appreciate before I can claim a modicum of proficiency in this field?

Thanks,
A young convert to classical music and opera.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

I would not be as concerned about having proficiency in the field of opera as just watching those operas that appeal to you. My entry into opera was Beethoven's Fidelio. After that I approached it by reading through a book with a hundred or so opera synopses in breif. From that, I chose a handful to pursue and enjoyed them immensely. Find some that appeal to you in the synopsis, then pursue them with video and English subtitles. Once you get familiar enough, then listening to a CD is more meaningful as you can have an image of the action in your head which helps keep your place in the opera.

As for recommendations, I am not proficient in the field and my favorites list is probably not similar to the average TC member's favorites liste, but here are a few that I really like (besides some you mentioned such as, Barber of Seville and Cenerentola):

Der Freischutz (Weber)
Fidelio (Beethoven)
Donizetti's Queen operas (Start with Maria Stuarda)
I Capuleti e i Montecchi (Bellini)
Die Frau ohne Schatten (Strauss)
La Sonnambula (Bellini)
Martha (Flotow)
L'amico Fritz (Mascagni)
Tosca (Puccini)
Boris Godunov (Mussorgsky)
La Fille du Regiment (Donizetti)
L'elisir d'amore (Donizetti)
Giulio Cesare (Handel)
Der fliegende Holländer (Wagner)


Welcome to the site. Beware: opera is addictive.


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## Guest (Dec 10, 2017)

While quite cheerfully pretentious I would never be presumptuous enough to chirp in on a subject that I myself have only begun to study but the best advice that I can give you is that the libretto is everything (at least it was to me) because knowing "what" they are singing about was invaluable in understanding "why" they were singing the way they were...

Second bit of well-intentioned advice... spend a little time every day in the "Opera" forum reading everything you can...Look for names like DarkAngel or The Conte or Itulian or Woodduck or any of the other literally dozens of other posters that (unlike me) actually know what they're talking about... 

Third bit of well-intentioned advice... if you find that you're interested in a particular opera or composer use the "Search" box to find relevant threads... There are some really first-rate threads that have receded into the depths of the forum due to newer postings... 

I stumbled (figuratively not literally although I actually was holding a bottle of beer at the time) upon the "New Maria Callas box set" thread and it was a life-changer... which surprised me, my mom, my six annoying kid sisters, and everyone on this forum! :lol:

I hate to use clichés (I'm lying - I love clichés - I even eat them for breakfast!) but what you put into the effort is what you'll get out... it's up to you... and I wish you the best of luck! Enjoy!


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

So maybe try the next step up the ladder with Mozart's _Don Giovanni_ and Puccini's _La Boheme_, _Tosca_ and _Madame Butterfly_.


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## Kjetil Heggelund (Jan 4, 2016)

I've been avoiding opera all my life, then suddenly the other day I decided to go for it  I have of course been to the opera and heard great works live. I'm currently mostly interested in modern opera. Kaija Saariaho, Louis Andriessen and George Benjamin are really something! Oh...I'm pretty old and used to my musical habits


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## Sloe (May 9, 2014)

Not mentioned operas.
Mascagni: Iris
Puccini: La Boheme
Wagner: The Ring


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

The fact that you've begun with the Baroque and moved forward only to Rossini may say something about your tastes. If you're of a systematic nature, or interested in the way music and musical drama evolved through the centuries, you might enjoy making a chronological survey of some of the best-known and most representative operas. I'd recommend, in addition to those you've heard already:

Baroque: Monteverdi _L'Orfeo_ and _L'Incoronazione di Poppea_; Rameau _Platee;_ Lully _Atys._

Classical: Gluck _Orphee et Euridice;_ Mozart _Le Nozze di Figaro_, _Don Giovanni,_ and _Die Zauberflote_; Cherubini _Medea._

Romantic (Italian): Rossini _Guillaume Tell_; Donizetti _Lucia di Lammermoor_ and _L'Elisir d'amore_; Bellini _Norma;_ Verdi _Rigoletto, La Traviata, Aida, Otello_ and_ Falstaff;_ Puccini _La Boheme, Madama Butterfly, Tosca, La Fanciulla del West,_ and _Turandot;_ Mascagni _Cavalleria Rusticana;_ Leoncavallo _Pagliacci._

Romantic (German): Beethoven _Fidelio;_ Weber _Der Freischutz;_ Wagner _Lohengrin, Tristan und Isolde, Die Meistersinger, Der_ _Ring des Nibelungen,_ and _Parsifal;_ Johann Strauss _Die Fledermaus;_ Humperdinck _Hansel und Gretel._

Romantic (Russian): Mussorgsky _Boris Godunov;_ Tchaikovsky _Eugene Onegin_.

Romantic (Czech): Dvorak _Rusalka._

Romantic (French): Berlioz _Les Troyens;_ Gounod _Faust;_ Saint-Saens _Samson et Dalila; Offenbach La Perichole; _ Bizet _Carmen_; Massenet _Manon_ and _Werther._

20th century: Debussy _Pelleas et Melisande;_ Richard Strauss _Salome, Elektra,_ and _Der Rosenkavalier;_ Bartok _Bluebeard's Castle;_ Shostakovich _Lady Macbeth of Mtsensk;_ Prokofiev _War and Peace_ and _Love for Three Oranges;_ Britten _Peter Grimes;_ Korngold _Die tote Stadt;_ Janacek _Jenufa;_ Berg _Wozzeck;_ Schoenberg _Erwartung;_ Ravel _L'enfant et les sortilèges;_ Poulenc _Dialogues des Carmelites;_ Szymanowski _King Roger;_ Stravinsky _The Rake's Progress;_ Gershwin _Porgy and Bess;_ Moore _The Ballad of Baby_ _Doe._

For contemporary opera I defer to those more knowledgeable. Schigolch...


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## bravenewworld (Jan 24, 2016)

Thanks to all who've replied 

The TalkClassical community really is tremendously helpful. I can see you all feel the same passion for music that I do 



Fritz Kobus said:


> After that I approached it by reading through a book with a hundred or so opera synopses in breif...Beware: opera is addictive.


I have recently ordered the Penguin Concise Guide to Opera (which I find ironic considering it is 600 pages long... one wonders how long the non-concise guide is), so I'll definitely try your method. And yes, I've already discovered how addictive opera is- I have a feeling this is going to be a lifelong passion!



Nudge and a Wink said:


> While quite cheerfully pretentious I would never be presumptuous enough to chirp in on a subject that I myself have only begun to study but the best advice that I can give you is that the libretto is everything (at least it was to me) because knowing "what" they are singing about was invaluable in understanding "why" they were singing the way they were...
> 
> Second bit of well-intentioned advice... spend a little time every day in the "Opera" forum reading everything you can...Look for names like DarkAngel or The Conte or Itulian or Woodduck or any of the other literally dozens of other posters that (unlike me) actually know what they're talking about...
> 
> ...


Thanks! I've just done a few searches and some old but wonderful threads have appeared... I feel enlightened already.



Woodduck said:


> The fact that you've begun with the Baroque and moved forward only to Rossini may say something about your tastes. If you're of a systematic nature, or interested in the way music and musical drama evolved through the centuries, you might enjoy making a chronological survey of some of the best-known and most representative operas


You've read right through me, Woodduck. What a shame, _L'incoronazione di Poppea_ was being performed in my city of Sydney only recently, but I missed it (I'm only in high school, you see, and my parents aren't interested enough in classical music to take me to see it  ). But the internet is a wonderful thing, and I'm sure YouTube will provide. Thanks also for that extremely thorough list, which actually leads me to beg the question: If those are the greats of opera, can anyone ever be 'proficient' in this area, or is there just too much artistic content out there to ever even scratch the surface?


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

bravenewworld said:


> Thanks to all who've replied
> 
> The TalkClassical community really is tremendously helpful. I can see you all feel the same passion for music that I do
> 
> ...


Well, I left high school fifty years ago, and I haven't heard all the operas on that list, much less all the great operas obtainable on recordings. An exhaustive list of worthwhile operas could be four times that long. But you have plenty of time, so - get to work!


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

I think it's important to go step by step as by buying a whole lot at once can be daunting.

I'd certainly go for Bizet's Carmen as it is one of the most tuneful operas as well as one of the greatest ever written. There is a really good DVD from ROH conducted by Pappano with Kauffmann as Jose if you want to see it.

For Mozart I'd put The Flute first on the list although the da Ponte operas are probably even better.

Verdi? I started with Rigoletto conducted by Solti which I nearly played the grooves out of.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

bravenewworld said:


> Hi,
> As someone who has had an appreciation of classical music for a few years now, I've become more acutely aware of my deficiencies when it comes to opera. I have therefore decided, as is my wont, to immerse myself in the world of opera for some time so as to get a good feel for the genre, and, having achieved that, to be able to organically listen to any operas I come across with minimal exertion in understanding them and the mechanksms behind them.
> 
> Thus far, I have an appreciation of Purcell's operas and operettas, including Dido and Aeneas, King Arthur and Dioclesian. I do have some taste for Handel's operas, particularly Giulio Cesare in Egitto. I have also recently grown to like Il barbiere di Siviglia, and I have L'italiana in Algeri, Tancredi and La Cenerentola in the post at the moment. Unfortunately that's essentially it for opera right now.
> ...


Here's what I would do. Take a favourite opera recording, and find a singer in it whose style you enjoy. Then listen to other things they've done.

Opera's a thing to see. If you can't get to the opera house, get some DVDs of the operas you like. When you find a production you enjoy, get other things that the producer's been involved in.

Just looking at the list of things you enjoy, I think I would try Monteverdi's Incoronazione di Poppea if I were you.


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## Granate (Jun 25, 2016)

bravenewworld said:


> I have recently ordered the Penguin Concise Guide to Opera (which I find ironic considering it is 600 pages long... one wonders how long the non-concise guide is), so I'll definitely try your method. And yes, I've already discovered how addictive opera is- I have a feeling this is going to be a lifelong passion!


Excellent choice and very well done. I'm glad you started with Baroque and early classical opera, two periods which I can barely like at this point of my life. *Reading synopsis and analysis* is very helpful to appreciate the toughest-listening operas in the main repertoire, especially R. Strauss and Wagner. However, always consider to *watch opera productions* on video to make yourself a picture of how the story goes (if the staging is "traditional", better). Those videos are usually subtitled in English. Also, do not consider listening to any recording. Many interpreters know how to lift up a score. *Give a go to TC Winners for Operas on CD and DVD.*

Also, considering the time you may have. I find many Italian operas to be worth playing during leisure time, but they can stress you out easily if you are studying. This depends on how much do you want to give in to the music in comparison to other activities. For example, I like this music for multi-tasking with home-work, analysis and as an excuse to write posts in TC, not for leisure or pleasure.


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## Guest (Dec 11, 2017)

bravenewworld said:


> I have recently ordered the Penguin Concise Guide to Opera (which I find ironic considering it is 600 pages long... one wonders how long the non-concise guide is)...


:lol: That's a really nice line... my compliments! If you don't mind I would like to use it someday myself somewhere else on the boards where no one has ever seen it before but I assure you that I will give you the proper attribution (I'm lying... I won't... I'll steal it and then lie through my teeth with self-righteous indignation when caught)...

As a "New Member soon to be Junior Member" you may not be aware of a rather obscure forum rule which allows "Senior Members" (like me for example) to poach and confiscate at will anything and everything that "New Members soon to be Junior Members" write that the "Senior Members" enviously wish that they had written ... I know...I know... it's not fair... it's not just... but it is in the rule book... (I would tell you where exactly but I seem to have misplaced my copy - if anyone finds my missing forum rule book it's the one that smells like spilled beer and it has a bottle stain on the front cover - I do want it back but not enough to offer a reward so if you're thinking about holding it hostage don't even bother asking for a ransom because I would sooner make up the rules as I go along rather than pay)...

Anyway... that's quite enough of that nonsense thank you very much...

Genuinely glad to have someone to share the excitement of new discoveries with! As you progress in your operatic studies you will eventually acquire enough knowledge, wisdom, and intellectual gravitas to tell people like me to get lost and to stop bothering you with this sort of cheerful high-spirited nonsense but until then you pretty much have to do what we tell you to do when we tell you to do it... and by "we" I primarily mean "me"...

And I call "first dibs" on any further humourous lines you inadvertently come up with... In fact, it may actually be a better idea to PM me any further humourous lines *before* you post them and I will graciously "proof-read" them for you...

Best wishes, good luck, and enjoy the journey! NW


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## schigolch (Jun 26, 2011)

Unless you are planning to pursue a musicological degree, or write a non-concise Opera Guide yourself, I wouldn't care a lot about "claiming a modicum of proficiency".

It's much better, in my view, to go with the flow, enjoy and learn. After all, you will soon discover that there is no destination, and all the pleasure is in the journey.

Sometimes, you will be in the mood for exploring a composer, like Verdi, or a musical period, like Italian "verismo". Then, you can prefer to probe the career of a singer, or of a conductor. Or simply follow some recommendations, like the ones already shared by other TC members.

In that vein, let me just add one of those recommendations, "The Passenger" by Mieczysław Weinberg, that you can also watch complete in youtube:


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## bravenewworld (Jan 24, 2016)

Mandryka said:


> Here's what I would do. Take a favourite opera recording, and find a singer in it whose style you enjoy. Then listen to other things they've done... Just looking at the list of things you enjoy, I think I would try Monteverdi's Incoronazione di Poppea if I were you.


That's a great idea. I had thought of exploring based upon composers- but singers is another idea altogether. Thanks!



Granate said:


> However, always consider to *watch opera productions* on video to make yourself a picture of how the story goes (if the staging is "traditional", better). Those videos are usually subtitled in English. Also, do not consider listening to any recording. Many interpreters know how to lift up a score. *Give a go to TC Winners for Operas on CD and DVD.*
> 
> Also, considering the time you may have. I find many Italian operas to be worth playing during leisure time, but they can stress you out easily if you are studying. This depends on how much do you want to give in to the music in comparison to other activities.


Yes, I can already see the importance of *watching* and understanding the plot. But wouldn't it be fine to get recordings once you understand the work and perhaps have watched a few different interpretations, insofar as you can then better see where interpreters have 'lifted up' the score?

In terms of time taken, I don't think that will be a problem. Mark Twain has been (perhaps falsely) attributed as saying 'never let schooling interfere with your education', and that's something to which I (try to) hold true. For there isn't much point in schooling, surely, if we leave the education system as automata with no sense of the beauty of the world and of learning. I find my musical education to be integral to that- I have a desire to learn more, and in so doing I hope I will become a person better able to appreciate *life* itself and see beauty in the everyday. I think music does that to people. And I think when that is contrasted with that which is taught at school, it shouldn't necessarily get priority, but it should be valued to a similar degree. So I don't really _want_ to pause my developing love of the musical arts. Besides... I'm fairly sure my marks are strong enough anyway to get into the course I want (international law).



schigolch said:


> Unless you are planning to pursue a musicological degree, or write a non-concise Opera Guide yourself, I wouldn't care a lot about "claiming a modicum of proficiency".
> 
> It's much better, in my view, to go with the flow, enjoy and learn. After all, you will soon discover that there is no destination, and all the pleasure is in the journey.


Yes, I agree entirely. I'm not someone who is entirely guided by a systematic approach. But my point is that if you don't have that basic proficiency, then you can never actually understand what you want. For example, I couldn't know if I was in the mood for verismo if I had never heard of it (which I hadn't until you mentioned it  ).

Beyond that, I do agree. There is something magical about stumbling upon something new that can never be matched by a pre-planned investigation of a work.

Thanks also for the recommendation


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## Granate (Jun 25, 2016)

bravenewworld said:


> Yes, I can already see the importance of watching and understanding the plot. But wouldn't it be fine to *get recordings* once you understand the work and perhaps have watched a few different interpretations, insofar as you can then better see where interpreters have 'lifted up' the score?


It's up to you and whether you are for or against streaming. I think I understood "getting" as "buying" in your reply. I never said such a thing.

To watch worthy interpretations on video, you could try the Met Opera Streaming service, which has several videos of operas for you to enjoy. Not all are the same. Because you many not find many different productions of the same opera on YouTube with subtitles.

It could be that we have different goals. I just want to build a library of different genres inside classical music, not only opera and orchestral, and I would like to get the finest (according to my listening experience). If you want to go deeper in theory and meaning, please enjoy. I don't want to bother anyone.



bravenewworld said:


> In terms of time taken, I don't think that will be a problem. Mark Twain has been (perhaps falsely) attributed as saying 'never let schooling interfere with your education', and that's something to which I (try to) hold true. For there isn't much point in schooling, surely, if we leave the education systems as automata with no sense of the beauty of the world and of learning. I find my musical education to be integral to that- I have a desire to learn more, and in so doing I hope I will become a person better able to appreciate *life* itself and see beauty in the everyday. I think music does that to people. And I think when that is contrasted with that which is taught at school, it shouldn't necessarily get priority, but it should be valued to a similar degree. So I don't really _want_ to pause my developing love of the musical arts. Besides... I'm fairly sure my marks are strong enough anyway to get into the course I want (international law).


Kudos!


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## bravenewworld (Jan 24, 2016)

Granate said:


> It's up to you and whether you are for or against streaming. I think I understood "getting" as "buying" in your reply. I never said such a thing.
> 
> To watch worthy interpretations on video, you could try the Met Opera Streaming service, which has several videos of operas for you to enjoy. Not all are the same. Because you many not find many different productions of the same opera on YouTube with subtitles.
> 
> It could be that we have different goals. I just want to build a library of different genres inside classical music, not only opera and orchestral, and I would like to get the finest (according to my listening experience). If you want to go deeper in theory and meaning, please enjoy. I don't want to bother anyone.


Perhaps I've misinterpreted you... I do apologise. Thanks also for the recommendation for the Met Opera Streaming Service- I was looking for some performances on YouTube (_Giulio Cesare in Egitto_ in particular) and couldn't find anything with English sub- or sur-titles to help me understand.

I'm also not entirely sure our goals are as divergent as may seem to be the case. I too am trying to construct a library (CD, but hoping to branch into LPs when I'm older) of the 'finest' classical in all genres. But yes, I would like to learn more about theory and meaning at some point , because I feel perhaps it might enrich my experience. Whether it does do that or simply confuses me remains to be seen. Right now, though, I am simply attempting to listen to the music and sample the pleasures of all these genres. So not entirely different, it seems. And, please, you most certainly aren't bothering me, for one!


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## Gazzington (Dec 12, 2016)

This thread is interesting to me. I am a novice but enjoyed solti ring cycle greatly. Very powerful music. Thing is I can speak German so I can't understand the singing. Do most of you follow the narrative or just listen to it in a musical sense?


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## Granate (Jun 25, 2016)

I listen to Wagner Rings both for *musical* and *competitive* senses. For enjoying it it was necessary to know and fairly understand the narrative (thanks to video releases). Don't you worry, many members inside and outside Talk Classical rank the Solti Wagner Ring as the best. But I'm not one of them.


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

If this doesn't whet your appetite for more, nothing will.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

Gazzington said:


> This thread is interesting to me. I am a novice but enjoyed solti ring cycle greatly. Very powerful music. Thing is I can speak German so I can't understand the singing. Do most of you follow the narrative or just listen to it in a musical sense?


You really need to get a DVD set and watch it a couple of times with English subtitles so that the story gets more familiar and more associated to the music. Then the CDs will be more enjoyable. I recommend the only traditional performance I am aware of on DVD, which is Levine with Siegfried Jerusalem as Siegfried and James Morris as Wotan. Shop around on price and also consider if it can be bought separately (4 operas) cheaper.


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## gellio (Nov 7, 2013)

OP - if you like Rossini, you will definitely like Mozart, Bellini and Donizetti, IMO. 

You should just search operas on YouTube and find out what you like. Baroque opera - which you love, I don't have much of a liking for - not enough ensembles. So, we each have our own preferences. What I'm getting at is everyone has a recommendation, but while you will fall in love with some recommendations, you will not like others. Exploring them on YouTube is a great way to start. When you get a taste of something you like, you can explore it more. When you get a taste of something you don't like, you can move on.


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## Nonchalant (Jan 13, 2018)

I think understanding the libretto makes the music more enjoyable. As for anything pre-modern, I would imagine a lot of recitative in a language you can’t understand might get boring quickly. However, Erwartung (Schoenberg) is one of my fav works ever And I can’t understand a word of it, so who cares. If you think of the human voice as an instrument everything makes sense.


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## Nonchalant (Jan 13, 2018)

I think understanding the libretto makes the music more enjoyable. As for anything pre-modern, I would imagine a lot of recitative in a language you can’t understand might get boring quickly. However, Erwartung (Schoenberg) is one of my fav works ever And I can’t understand a word of it, so who cares. If you think of the human voice as an instrument everything makes sense.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Nonchalant said:


> I think understanding the libretto makes the music more enjoyable. As for anything pre-modern, I would imagine a lot of recitative in a language you can't understand might get boring quickly. However, Erwartung (Schoenberg) is one of my fav works ever And I can't understand a word of it, so who cares. If you think of the human voice as an instrument everything makes sense.


That's the spirit, hope it helps O.P. welcome to Talk Classical by the way.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

Nonchalant said:


> I think understanding the libretto makes the music more enjoyable. As for anything pre-modern, I would imagine a lot of recitative in a language you can't understand might get boring quickly. However, Erwartung (Schoenberg) is one of my fav works ever And I can't understand a word of it, so who cares. *If you think of the human voice as an instrument everything makes sense.*


Yes, and it can make some of the most beautiful music. So we can listen to a vocal work as an instrumental work with the added instruments of voices. In some vocal works I really don't care what the specific words are, so long as I have the gist of the work in mind. I have many operas that I listen to the same, though it is nice to watch opera on DVD with the subtitles, but even then they don't cover every word.

For example, right now I am listening to this wonderful sounding vocal work (Gade's Elverskud) and only have a vague idea of the story, but am really enjoying the vocals. It is not an opera, but the singing sounds quite operatic to me.


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## peeknocker (Feb 14, 2012)

In my opinion, the best way to get into opera is to first select a canonical work that is easily approachable, e.g. The Magic Flute. Second, find a production that is sung in a language you understand (e.g. English) so that you need not bother with the intermediary of subtitles or a translation of the libretto. To delve straight into recordings made in a foreign language can be off-putting for some. Hearing an opera in one's native language also dispels much of the mystique that can make it intimidating at first. Opera is, after all, not simply music but the wedding of music with drama (i.e. theatre). If you don't understand what's being sung (or you are not accustomed to reading a translation simultaneously), you are missing half the effect. In the old days, Sadler's Wells (now the ENO) and the New York Met, among others, would regularly stage productions in English and there are many recordings in circulation. I would also advise against using modern productions as a template for what to expect. Whether or not it is PC to state this, the simple fact is that standards today are far inferior to that of previous generations (quite apart from the abominations that _regietheater_ has brought us). Precious few performers today can measure up to their forbears. But that is a subject for another thread.


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## ldiat (Jan 27, 2016)

this is posted on Met opera on facebook today here is a link: it appears some is free
https://www.futurelearn.com/courses/inside-opera/2


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## bravenewworld (Jan 24, 2016)

gellio said:


> OP - if you like Rossini, you will definitely like Mozart, Bellini and Donizetti, IMO.
> 
> You should just search operas on YouTube and find out what you like. Baroque opera - which you love, I don't have much of a liking for - not enough ensembles. So, we each have our own preferences. What I'm getting at is everyone has a recommendation, but while you will fall in love with some recommendations, you will not like others. Exploring them on YouTube is a great way to start. When you get a taste of something you like, you can explore it more. When you get a taste of something you don't like, you can move on.


Yes, I've been finding that out recently. I think what I'm going to do is imbibe Rossini's best known operas, then move onto Donizetti, then Bellini and then Mozart. Since I first made the thread I've gotten a second recording of _Il Barbiere_, and I got both a DVD and CD of _Tancredi_, _La Cenerentola_ and _L'Italiana in Algeri_. I'm loving all of them so far, except _Tancredi_, but I'm getting to appreciate it as time goes on. It takes time with these things I suppose. I currently have _Guillaume Tell_ (I went with the French version, but I suppose I'll eventually get the Italian one too) and _La Gazza Ladra_ in the post. I also plan to acquire _Semiramide_, because I'm aware of just how _opera-buffa_-heavy my currently opera collection is. I think by then I'll be ready to move on from Rossini .

At the same time I've been indulging my baroque opera taste. I still can't get over _Giulio Cesare_. Such wonderful music! I currently have a DVD of _Ariodante_ in the post because I have the recording already.



nina foresti said:


> If this doesn't whet your appetite for more, nothing will.


Well, for Christmas I was actually given a subscription to the Met Opera Streaming Service. And I'm sorry to say but I tried this very production of Carmen before- and I didn't finish it . I just don't think I understood the music. I love the bel canto style right now and it just feels odd to listen to something that doesn't fall within those paradigms.

In saying that, I find with all famous pieces in classical that if I don't like it then the fault isn't usually with the piece, it's with me. So whilst I found Carmen didn't draw me in, I won't say it's bad. I say I'll fall in love with it when my taste has matured and I've moved on from bel canto into somewhat more modern operatic tastes (as I know will happen).

In saying that, I did find that clip tremendously powerful. Perhaps I'll appreciate the whole opera sooner, rather than later .



peeknocker said:


> In my opinion, the best way to get into opera is to first select a canonical work that is easily approachable, e.g. The Magic Flute. Second, find a production that is sung in a language you understand (e.g. English) so that you need not bother with the intermediary of subtitles or a translation of the libretto. To delve straight into recordings made in a foreign language can be off-putting for some. Hearing an opera in one's native language also dispels much of the mystique that can make it intimidating at first. Opera is, after all, not simply music but the wedding of music with drama (i.e. theatre). If you don't understand what's being sung (or you are not accustomed to reading a translation simultaneously), you are missing half the effect. In the old days, Sadler's Wells (now the ENO) and the New York Met, among others, would regularly stage productions in English and there are many recordings in circulation. I would also advise against using modern productions as a template for what to expect. Whether or not it is PC to state this, the simple fact is that standards today are far inferior to that of previous generations (quite apart from the abominations that _regietheater_ has brought us). Precious few performers today can measure up to their forbears. But that is a subject for another thread.


You've touched on a question that's been challenging me... thus far I've steered clear of English recordings, maybe for the same reason that I prefer historical instrumentation in Baroque performances. But I think maybe I will need to bend that rule- it seems a much easier way to get to know a work, synopsis-wise at least. Then I can get back to the music in the original language. On the other hand, I'm growing to love Italian through these operas, and I'm planning on learning it after school. So, maybe in the long-run that won't be a huge issue.

In terms of theatrical performances: I agree, and I've found that to be the case too. Nonetheless, I love the Met's recent _Giulio Cesare_, but maybe that's just me. Usually, when I've been selecting DVDs of operas, I've gravitated towards the older performances precisely because of how confusing I find all this postmodernist theatre. But it's still a tragedy to have to deal with the usually very low recording quality for such great works .



ldiat said:


> this is posted on Met opera on facebook today here is a link: it appears some is free
> https://www.futurelearn.com/courses/inside-opera/2


Thanks! I'll look into it.


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## Meyerbeer Smith (Mar 25, 2016)

bravenewworld said:


> Yes, I've been finding that out recently. I think what I'm going to do is imbibe Rossini's best known operas, then move onto Donizetti, then Bellini and then Mozart. Since I first made the thread I've gotten a second recording of _Il Barbiere_, and I got both a DVD and CD of _Tancredi_, _La Cenerentola_ and _L'Italiana in Algeri_. I'm loving all of them so far, except _Tancredi_, but I'm getting to appreciate it as time goes on. It takes time with these things I suppose. I currently have _Guillaume Tell_ (I went with the French version, but I suppose I'll eventually get the Italian one too) and _La Gazza Ladra_ in the post. I also plan to acquire _Semiramide_, because I'm aware of just how _opera-buffa_-heavy my currently opera collection is. I think by then I'll be ready to move on from Rossini .


Glad you're enjoying Rossini! He was the second composer I fell in love with, after Mozart. Rossini is wonderful, exhilarating, witty music that's full of life.

_Tancredi_'s a very different work from the comedies; it's opera seria, and, while it's beautiful, it's, I think, more formal, more conventional, than the experimental works he wrote for Naples. It has, though, the famous aria "Di tanti palpiti" and one of Rossini's great Act I finales. These are often my favorite part of a Rossini opera; I love their energy and their ingenuity within a formal structure. The Act I finales - and the ensembles (trios, quartets, &c) - are often the creative highpoints of Italian opera.

You might only want to listen to a handful of Rossini operas, but you should check out these highlights from his other operas:
*Otello*
o	Trio - "Ah vieni, nel tuo sangue": 



o	The willow song: 



*Armida*
o	Mirror trio: 



o	Amor possente nome: 



*Mosè in Egitto*
o	Quartet: 



o	Quintet: 



o	"Dal tuo stellato soglio" (prayer): 



*Ricciardo e Zoraide*
o	Trio: 



o	Quartet: 



*Ermione*
o	Sei vendicata: 



*La donna del lago*
o	Act I finale: 



o	Trio: 



*Bianca e Falliero*
o	Quartet: 



*Maometto II*
o	Terzettone: 



*Matilde di Shabran*
o	Quintet: 



o	Sextet: 



*Zelmira*
o	Terzetto: 



o	Terra amica: 



o	Duet "In estasi di gioia": 



o	Quintet: 



*Il viaggio a Reims*
o	Gran pezzo concertato a 14 voci: 




Many of these tracks were put up by a Rossini fan called Kirill (formerly known as Lindoro). You should check out his channel. He's put up a lot of great tracks from Rossini; he also explains the music.

If you're going to investigate Rossini, Bellini, and Donizetti, you should read Charles Osborne's _Bel Canto Operas_, which looks in detail at all the operas by each composer: plot synopsis, and critique of the music (not, fortunately, too technical!).

Denis Forman's _Good Opera Guide_ discusses most of the famous operas; it's opinionated, irreverent, and witty.



> At the same time I've been indulging my baroque opera taste. I still can't get over _Giulio Cesare_. Such wonderful music! I currently have a DVD of _Ariodante_ in the post because I have the recording already.
> 
> Well, for Christmas I was actually given a subscription to the Met Opera Streaming Service. And I'm sorry to say but I tried this very production of Carmen before- and I didn't finish it . I just don't think I understood the music. I love the bel canto style right now and it just feels odd to listen to something that doesn't fall within those paradigms.
> 
> ...


_Carmen_ is from half a century later; it's midway between Offenbach and French opera (both grand and comique) on the one hand, and _verismo!_ on t'other. To get from Rossini to there, maybe you should check out the composers on the way:

Meyerbeer, a great composer, revered in his day; his French grand opéras combine Rossinian bel canto with German harmony and instrumentation - he was a big influence on Bizet, Verdi, and Wagner;
Gounod's _Faust_; (Incidentally, this was the first opera I saw live, and I loved it. Swordfights, black magic, and great tunes.)
and some Offenbach (probably _Les brigands_ or _La Périchole_, and _Les contes d'Hoffmann_).




> You've touched on a question that's been challenging me... thus far I've steered clear of English recordings, maybe for the same reason that I prefer historical instrumentation in Baroque performances. But I think maybe I will need to bend that rule- it seems a much easier way to get to know a work, synopsis-wise at least. Then I can get back to the music in the original language. On the other hand, I'm growing to love Italian through these operas, and I'm planning on learning it after school. So, maybe in the long-run that won't be a huge issue.


Understanding the libretto is vital; opera is drama through music. Some operas have great tunes, and Italian bel canto is often a vehicle for song; other composers (e.g. Wagner) emphasize the text - and many 20th century composers (even Strauss and Puccini, to a degree) use the music almost like a Hollywood soundtrack, accompanying the text, but not calling attention to itself.

It's generally best to listen to opera in the original language; the music was written to fit the text, and translating it into another language can often sound awkward. Most productions have subtitles, and most CD booklets have translations. On IMSLP, you can also find scores, often in the original language and English. (I'm bilingual in French, though, and have some German and Italian, so can at least feel my way around the language!)

Before I listen to an unfamiliar work, I'll listen to a few of the hits to familiarize myself with it, then listen to the whole thing as background music, before listening to it (or, ideally, watching it) properly.



> In terms of theatrical performances: I agree, and I've found that to be the case too. Nonetheless, I love the Met's recent _Giulio Cesare_, but maybe that's just me. Usually, when I've been selecting DVDs of operas, I've gravitated towards the older performances precisely because of how confusing I find all this postmodernist theatre. But it's still a tragedy to have to deal with the usually very low recording quality for such great works .


I agree about the postmodern productions; most of them are ugly mockeries of the creators' intent. (Authorial intent? Reactionary!) The Met productions are generally very good. So, too, are Jean-Pierre Ponnelle's films of Mozart, Verdi, and Puccini; and Göran Järvefelt's Mozart is simple and elegant.


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