# Favorite Massenet Opera



## HumphreyAppleby (Apr 11, 2013)

There are, of course, others that you can write in.
My personal favorite is Thais. A good story and libretto, with _the_ operatic interlude of all time, and lots of plain old beautiful music. I also read an essay at the front of the Decca recording w/ Fleming about the complex system of musical reminiscences. Beautiful for the ears and mind.

Massenet is a composer who, like Puccini, is quite readily dismissed in musical circles. Any body have thoughts on this interesting composer?


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## dionisio (Jul 30, 2012)

Humm...Werther (with Kraus?...)

Apart from Le cid (with Alagna), Werther and Manon, i'm a complete ingnorant.

But Kraus, i'd have to go with Kraus in Werther! (and in Faust, but that's other french composer...)


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

I'm torn between Werther and Manon, with Le Cid coming third. I've seen Thais (on Met Player) but didn't really take it in. I'll have to give it another go. Cendrillon is very cute, and I also like the recent DVD on Don Quichotte with Jose van Dam. Still to explore the others.

I think Massenet is undervalued and has a lot to offer.


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## StlukesguildOhio (Dec 25, 2006)

From what I am conversant with, my favorites by Massenet are _Manon_ followed by _Thais_.

I quite agree that Massenet is a marvelous composer who should be better known. I've been personally working toward that goal myself over the past year or two.


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## quack (Oct 13, 2011)

Definitely a composer whose works should be heard more and he should be spoken of as frequently as Puccini. Perhaps not as consistent as Puccini but then it is difficult to tell owing to how under-recorded and poorly recorded he often is.

His two best known are deservedly well regarded but my favourite recording of his is Gergiev's recent _Don Quichotte_. It's a work that frequently gets dismissed as too comically silly to begin with and too schmaltzy sentimental at the end but I think it is sung and balanced beautifully. Comic opera often annoys me a little but this has the undercurrent of tragedy to it that gives it a lot of depth. I'll have to look out the DVD version sometime to compare.

Another one of his works worth hearing is _Esclarmonde_. Joan Sutherland is not my favourite singer but she is amazing in this. An incredibly challenging role, the Brunhilde of French opera, she keeps the interest and makes it sound (mostly) effortless.


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## Cavaradossi (Aug 2, 2012)

He's one of those steathily prolific artists that you don't realize how many "hits" they've had until you see them listed out. I've only seen four of those listed: Manon is wonderful, Thais is entrancing, Cendrillon is charming, and Werther is.... well... Werther.


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## sospiro (Apr 3, 2010)

I know:
Le roi de Lahore
Hérodiade 
Manon
Werther
Thaïs
Cendrillon
Don Quichotte

and of these Don Quichotte is my favourite. The story of an old man wanting to do something heroic for a beautiful young girl & to win her heart is very poignant.

And any excuse to post a video of Samuel Ramey


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## HumphreyAppleby (Apr 11, 2013)

quack said:


> Definitely a composer whose works should be heard more and he should be spoken of as frequently as Puccini. Perhaps not as consistent as Puccini but then it is difficult to tell owing to how under-recorded and poorly recorded he often is.
> 
> His two best known are deservedly well regarded but my favourite recording of his is Gergiev's recent _Don Quichotte_. It's a work that frequently gets dismissed as too comically silly to begin with and too schmaltzy sentimental at the end but I think it is sung and balanced beautifully. Comic opera often annoys me a little but this has the undercurrent of tragedy to it that gives it a lot of depth. I'll have to look out the DVD version sometime to compare.
> 
> Another one of his works worth hearing is _Esclarmonde_. Joan Sutherland is not my favourite singer but she is amazing in this. An incredibly challenging role, the Brunhilde of French opera, she keeps the interest and makes it sound (mostly) effortless.


I have that recording of _Esclarmonde_ with Jaume Aragall and Sutherland. It's sensational! The opera is really quite magical, and has that gorgeous love duet (that takes place on a magical island surrounded by nature spirits). 




Massenet's operas are an eclectic bunch, but they're almost all interesting in some way.


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## HumphreyAppleby (Apr 11, 2013)

Cavaradossi said:


> Werther is.... well... Werther.


How so? 

You should look into _Le mage_, another magical opera of his.


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## MAuer (Feb 6, 2011)

My knowledge here is shamefully lacking, since the only Massenet operas with which I'm familiar are _Manon_, _Werther_, and _Therese_. I chose _Manon_ as my favorite, though the music in _Werther_ is (to my ears) just as beautiful. But the character of Werther can really get on one's nerves -- even when the Divine Jonas is singing the role.


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## suteetat (Feb 25, 2013)

I only heard Le Cid and Herodiade lived in a concert format and there were some beautiful moments.
As a whole though, Werther captured my fancy the most. Never got into Manon much somehow.
Don Quichotte also has its moment but the rest, I am a bit indifferent at this stage.


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## Soliantu (Jun 4, 2013)

I'm also torn between Manon and Werther... I don't care for Thais much to be honest though. 
Also agree Kraus + Werther = Great!!!

http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1478858280/help-dan-dive-into-russian-opera-and-record-a-demo


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## Hesoos (Jun 9, 2012)

I know only Werther, Manon and Thaïs. Thaîs is my favourite


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## Orfeo (Nov 14, 2013)

Thérèse, though not Massenet at his finest, is often compelling (a great ending a la Tosca). 
Other than that, yes, Massenet is one of the great operatic composers of the 19th Century (a degree behind Wagner, Verdi, Rossini (perhaps), but on par with, say, Rimsky-Korsakov and Tchaikovsky).


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## schigolch (Jun 26, 2011)

All in all my favorite is _Thaïs_. I like a lot these French recordings:

















But I love Renée Fleming singing Thaïs, it's was a really great evening.


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## Rackon (Apr 9, 2013)

I love Massenet - and I do feel he's vastly underrated (as is French opera generally). The music is so very layered, atmospheric and constantly shifting -you really need good, sensitive conducting for it to work, a heavy hand will never do. Likewise you need singers with a certain elegance and elasticity of phrasing, a feel for the long line and alertness to text...plus passion, of course, but not necessarily Italianate style.

I learned some arias from Manon and Werther as a student, which fostered a love for these operas (and French art song, the beginning of a beautiful relationship). While I was in college in Chicago I had the opportunity to see both operas at LOC with Kraus as De Grieux and Werther - what miraculous phrasing and sensitivity to text! Not a large voice but so well projected, so supremely elegant. He has been my yardstick for these parts ever since...until about 5 years ago.

Until I saw Jonas Kaufmann in Manon in '08 in that very same Civic Opera House where I'd seen Kraus all those years ago. And of course I also saw the DVD of Werther from the Bastille in 2010. I was completely captivated by the man's acting and singing...undone in fact. JK was very different from Kraus vocally but he was wonderful in these roles, utterly hearbreaking. Kraus will always have a special place in my heart. But Kaudmann is very special .

Performed by a mediocre tenor Werther can be a real drag (shoot yourself already, PLEASE). But performed by a Kraus or a Kaufmann the opera can be a revelation - it made me feel like I understood Schiller's hero not as the melancholy whiner but as the poet too much in love with life, it made me feel connected to Romanticism in a visceral way.

So...even though I adore Manon, since I cried more tears over the two K's poets, I'm going with Werther.


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## HumphreyAppleby (Apr 11, 2013)

Gedda is my favorite _Werther_, although that opinion is based solely on records, as I have never been able to see the opera live. But Gedda has a very melancholic quality to his singing (despite his _sorriso_ technique) that makes his performance feel very authentic to me. He was also a brilliant man, and his interpretation was both ardent and intelligent.


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## schigolch (Jun 26, 2011)

I also had the opportunity to watch Mr. Kraus singing Werther in the theater. His performance was legendary, indeed.

About recordings, I have always had a soft spot for Georges Thill's.


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## Lucrezia (Nov 21, 2013)

I absolutely love *Le Cid*!!! It is pure magic, calms me down and every note of it seems to heal whatever pain is hidden deep in my soul.
_O souverain_ is the most religious piece ever known in non-religious music, a prayer itself.





Though not Alagna, I'm sorry.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

I am on my second listen to Le Cid, with Domingo and Bumbry. I think it would help me much to get a DVD of it with English Subtitles. I like more traditional performances. So I'm going looking for a DVD.

EDIT: just went to Amazon, Ebay, and half. No DVDs of Le Cid. Something wrong here. Is it not that popular of an opera?

2nd EDIT: Wow! I just found one on You Tube with English Subtitles. That is so wonderful they ought to let me like my own post.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Florestan said:


> I am on my second listen to Le Cid, with Domingo and Bumbry. I think it would help me much to get a DVD of it with English Subtitles. I like more traditional performances. So I'm going looking for a DVD.
> 
> EDIT: just went to Amazon, Ebay, and half. No DVDs of Le Cid. Something wrong here. Is it not that popular of an opera?
> 
> 2nd EDIT: Wow! I just found one on You Tube with English Subtitles. That is so wonderful they ought to let me like my own post.


If you got you teeth in something, you are going for it.
I do like that very much.
Glad you are enjoining and exploring opera so good and thorough :tiphat:


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## akhchew (Sep 14, 2011)

Thais.. for the longest time I loved the Meditation but never listened to the whole opera. Then I the finale restated this theme.

The music by itself is beautiful of course.. but with the vocal lines added it.. I cannot find the words.. so I'll just post this here. And my only regret is that Kirsten didn't leave more of this recorded.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

Pugg said:


> If you got you teeth in something, you are going for it.
> I do like that very much.
> Glad you are enjoining and exploring opera so good and thorough :tiphat:


Some things I latch on to and don't let go until I get my fill.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

Finally got around to watching the Le Cid You Tube with English subtitles. It's great, but I don't care for the ballet parts so much. So this is my favorite Massenet opera, but I don't know the others so does it count?


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Florestan said:


> Finally got around to watching the Le Cid You Tube with English subtitles. It's great, but I don't care for the ballet parts so much. So this is my favorite Massenet opera, but I don't know the others so does it count?


Yes it does, now start with Werther.


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## Meyerbeer Smith (Mar 25, 2016)

Florestan said:


> Finally got around to watching the Le Cid You Tube with English subtitles. It's great, but I don't care for the ballet parts so much. So this is my favorite Massenet opera, but I don't know the others so does it count?


If you enjoyed Le Cid, you might want to try Herodiade (very good music, troublesome libretto), Le roi de Lahore (Saint Etienne recording, NOT the Bonynge) or Esclarmonde, which are also exotic and heroic grands operas. Massenet's later work, though, is better.

My favorite Massenets include:
Manon (his most popular opera), 
Thais (where the Meditation comes from; psychologically interesting), 
Cendrillon (inspired score mixing Wagnerian lyricism with French elegance and wit; on CD, Stade is great but Prince - a travesti role - is played by elderly & dry vliced Gedda; Pelly DVD good),
Griselidis (some might call plot naive, but glorious music - prelude, "II partit au printemps" and the Devil's comic song among best things Massenet did),
Cherubin (delightful Mozartean work, shrewd and sophisticated; the love duet is fine)
Ariane (Greek tragedy, full of light and air like a Greek temple; echoes of Gluck and Wagner; admired by Faure)
Roma (best treatment of the Vestal who betrays her vows? - powerful and dramatic)
Don Quichotte (affecting adaptation of play inspired by Cervantes; imaginative orchestration in windmills scene, & Sanche's defence of master is one of few scenes in opera where I get weepy)
Amadis (Massenet's last opera, composed sometime in 1890s and kept locked up until after his death, like Agatha Christie's Curtain; short but vety beautiful)

Listen also to the Legende de la Sauge from "Jongleur de Notre Dame" and "J'ai verse le poison" from Cleopatre.

With all respect to Pugg, I'd suggest you don't listen to Werther. I liked it much less than the other Massenets; it wasn't until I heard the Thill/Vallin version of 1931 that I warmed to it. (This includes the Carreras/Stade recording under Davis.) It's finely characterised and several of the arias are beautiful, especially "Pourquoi me reveiller, o souffle du printemps?", but should be sung by French singers, in the Opera Comique style, rather than as French Puccini.


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## mountmccabe (May 1, 2013)

So after hearing "O souverain, ô juge, ô père" at some auditions I'm listening to various versions of it and numerous other arias from _Le Cid_... and perhaps it was the juxtaposition of reading the _Parsifal_ thread at the same time, but this is all bringing to mind this Wagner opera.

Which is enough to make me want to see the entire piece sooner rather than later. (I realize I need to listen to it as its own work and not evaluate it as to how Parsifal-esque it is).


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

I liked the Le Cid video so much I searched for another and came up with an interesting movie that is based on the same legend, staring Charlton Heston in the title role and Sophia Loren as Doña Ximena (I know, not opera, but it does start with an overture): El Cid


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

This kept us well occupied last night :tiphat:


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## Meyerbeer Smith (Mar 25, 2016)

mountmccabe said:


> So after hearing "O souverain, ô juge, ô père" at some auditions I'm listening to various versions of it and numerous other arias from _Le Cid_... and perhaps it was the juxtaposition of reading the _Parsifal_ thread at the same time, but this is all bringing to mind this Wagner opera.
> 
> Which is enough to make me want to see the entire piece sooner rather than later. (I realize I need to listen to it as its own work and not evaluate it as to how Parsifal-esque it is).


Not very. It's grand opera in the heroic French style. Massenet greatly admired Wagner, though, who was one of the four biggest influences on his music; the others were Berlioz, Gounod and Ambroise Thomas. Probably the operas that are most influenced by _Parsifal_ are _Esclarmonde_ (the spirits on the enchanted island in Act II), and possibly _Le mage_ and _Amadis_. _Jongleur_ is religious, and there are echoes of _Parsifal_ in the archaic music, especially the Légende de la Sauge.


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