# I seem to be operaphobic?



## Azathoth (Feb 28, 2007)

I've been trying to expand my musical tastes lately, and I figured I might as well move in to opera. Thing is, I don't seem to _get it_ in the way other people do.

I've seen two or three operas in my life, and have an obsessed friend who sent me some tracks, but I don't get it. It's not that I don't appreciate choral music (_Messiah_ rocks my world) but opera just doesn't work for me. I end up with that really stereotypical teenager reaction of, "Okay, fat people in a stupid story singing really loud. Great."

I saw _The Magic Flute_, _Madam Butterfly_ and one other thing. Don't really remember because I wasn't really paying much attention...actually, I kinda fell asleep. =/

I appreciate that it's compositionally solid and kinda pretty at times, but I'm seeing myself falling in to that ever-so-tempting trap of thinking everything I don't like is stupid. I always bristle when my agemates describe my music collection as 'boring old guys with stupid violins,' and would like to stay out of that.

So how do I learn to appreciate opera? Stupid, vague question but I can't think of better wording.


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## Guest (Apr 16, 2007)

I think you have never heard somebody (a friend, for example) singing opera. You would have shivered, and loved it instantly.

You should go to the opera house.


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## Azathoth (Feb 28, 2007)

What I'm saying is that I have heard opera, and I've heard opera singers -as in, The Met's opera singers- plying their trade and I still don't get it.


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## Guest (Apr 16, 2007)

at the opera house?


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## Azathoth (Feb 28, 2007)

Yes, I went to the Met and heard their singers performing _The Magic Flute_, _Madam Butterfly_ and some other thing that I kinda sorta slept through and don't remember.


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## Guest (Apr 16, 2007)

Sorry, I can't do anything for you.


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## Frasier (Mar 10, 2007)

Firstly, you can't expect all music to appeal to you. If you happen not to like operatic singing or musical theatre then opera isn't for you.....at this stage. Keep an open mind, though. If you're adventuring into territory unknown to you so far, some operatic piece may click suddenly. 

I didn't get it at the outset so I know what you mean! I'm a lot happier with it now.

EF


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## Azathoth (Feb 28, 2007)

Have any recommendations then?

I'm not really in to things that would be described as 'epic', if you get what I'm saying.

For a stylistic example of what I'm not in to, whoever wrote the musical version of _Also Spracht Zarathustra_ isn't to my taste. I think it was Strauss and I haven't heard that much of him, but that kind of thing. Wagner also has some of that aspect.


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## Morigan (Oct 16, 2006)

It took me quite some time to like opera. I don't really remember how it happened... I remember liking operettas first because they're light and the tunes are rather catchy.

It took me a while to learn to appreciate Mozart too. When I did, I began to love his operas too. I really don't know what to suggest; maybe it will come progressively, with time.

P.S. You love _Messiah_? (so do I!) Oratorios are just like opera without the whole acting, after all. Maybe you could try some baroque operas?


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## zlya (Apr 9, 2007)

Crap, I was just going to suggest some Strauss. 

I think perhaps you need more exciting operas. Try Puccini's Tosca. There's seduction, murder, political intrigue, torture, and suicide, and all the death is quick (none of that long, drawn out two-hour dying of consumption). I defy anyone to call Tosca boring old men with violins.

On the other hand, if you're looking for choral music, Verdi is the master of the opera chorus. Anvil Chorus from Il Trovatore immediately springs to mind. You may have heard it before, it's pretty famous in commercials and such.

Also, have you tried Carmen? I know it's overplayed, but it's famous for a reason. Very exciting, dead sexy.

Moreover, you might look into the wonderful world of opera dvds. Not only can you actually see the subtitles (and so understand what's going on), you can fast-forward over the boring bits (ok, the bits YOU find boring, which others may think of as musical gems).


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## cato (Dec 2, 2006)

Don't worry about what your friends think, just go for what music YOU enjoy, to hell with anyone else, because they don't have your ears.  

I can relate to what you say though, I was into classical music for many, many years, before I ever got into opera. And as far as loving opera, I have to say that I don't love ALL OPERAS. I tend not to like the German operas, yet I love Russian operas, and of course Pucinni. (Tosca, La Boheme, etc.)

I would suggest listening to a wide range of operas to find out what you like.  

A Russian opera by Shostakovich writen in the 1930's, will sound very, very different then an Italian opera writen by Handel in the 1730's.  

So try them all, and see what rings your bell.


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## Giovannimusica (Mar 30, 2007)

Apropos operas being *sexy*,

If you ever get a chance to hear the original score of Lady Macbeth of Mtsensk aka *Katerina Ismailova* by Shostakovich then you would get to know how, ahem, raunchy an opera can get without becoming *x-rated*


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## Saturnus (Nov 7, 2006)

Try Bartók's _Bluebeard's Castle_, Britten's _Peter Grimes_ or Shostakovich's _Lady Machbeth_. I was a bit like you; I didn't get it, and I still don't get the classical and romantic operas. But the 20th Century operas (including Puccini) are heavy-duty dramas that get straight to the point and are nothing but great.


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## Guest (Sep 17, 2007)

Okay i know this is an old topic but i saw the title and thought i might as well have written it. I have listened to classical all my life and have always disliked opera, like it almost upsets me. The voices in opera with soooo much vibrato really bother me. Its hard for me even to listen to the last movement of Beethoven’s 9th unless its the choir all together. And its not just works for voice, i love choir works. Mozart’s Requiem is possibly the most moving music ive ever listened to. 

Now to my major question, is there any hope for me if after more than 10 years of listening i still dislike opera to the point of disgust? This is not to say i dislike the music, i just hate the operatic voice, i find no beuty in it. But the problem is, i hear Wagner opera music without the singing and love it. I want to love the whole thing not the half of it, but its like i can’t.


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## Morigan (Oct 16, 2006)

If you still abhor opera after 10 years, I suppose there is no hope... What a shame! I didn't like opera either at first, it took me 1-2 years to really get into it. Now I mostly listen to solo vocal works and opera!

How does someone hate "operatic" voice or find no beauty in it? You prefer pop-style singing? Then watch musicals.


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## Guest (Sep 17, 2007)

As I said previously in an other thread, the better solution I know is to fall in love with an opera singer… 

An other solution is to take lessons _(you can also fall in love with the teacher!!  )_


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## Rondo (Jul 11, 2007)

I haven't explored much of opera, either. I have only a few in my library: Fidelio, Carmen, and Peer Gynt (which is actually still considered incidental music by most, I believe, as it was written as music for a play written by one of Grieg's ....cousins?? or friends...I can't remember which.)

Ballets may be more accessible for a wider range of classical music aficionados, but I guess that's a different thread.


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## Guest (Sep 19, 2007)

hahaha, thats funny you say that Alnitak,
i actually did date a girl that was the lead mezzo in a chior and she had the operatic voice. The wierd thing is the only classical she would ever listen to is Debussy. I tried to open her up to other composers but it would take. After hearing her "blow off" Dvoraks American String Quartet and 9th Symphony at one sitting my intrest in her began to sour. Tchaikovsky, Siblius, Beethoven, Bach, ect ect ect. and even Ravel. I was sure a Debussy fan would at least like Ravel a little.


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## Handel (Apr 18, 2007)

You could listen to some oratorios which include choruses. Could be a good starting point.


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## Guest (Sep 19, 2007)

Here's an easy way to like opera: take a composer you already like. Dvorak, say, or Berlioz or Prokofiev or Janacek. You've listened to all their chamber music, all their symphonies, all their "other" stuff like cantatas or concertos and the like. What's left? Operas. The four I mentioned were all favorites of mine. And once I'd thoroughly assimilated their styles in other genres, well, moving on to their operas was a snap.

Now I'll buy an opera by someone I don't even know through other kinds of music. Kutavicius, for example. The first piece of his I bought was _Lokys, the bear._ (That's a real stunner, by the way.) Then I bought all his other stuff I could find. (Precious little, too, I'm afraid.)

One word of warning, Shostakovich's _Lady Macbeth of the Mtsensk District_ is definitely NOT the same as *Katerina Ismailova*. The latter is a truncated version of Lady Macbeth. (On the Naxos site, this is referred to as a "revision" of Lady Macbeth!) Unless you're into truncated versions of things, stay away from Katerina Ismailova.


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## Guest (Sep 19, 2007)

Notserp89m said:


> I was sure a Debussy fan would at least like Ravel a little.


Girls are so mysterious… I tried once to understand them, but… I have to admit that I've given up! and yours has got a rather original mind...

Besides, Opera-singers have often many other qualities (which I won't say here, of course), that I think you should persevere!


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## Guest (Sep 19, 2007)

if you are really operaphobic, you must understand first that there are many ways to perform a song, or an opera.

If you don't like that way:






try to watch this one:






and tell me afterwards that you didn't prefer the second one!


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## Aigen (Jul 30, 2007)

This might sound like a really naff reply but have you seen the film, Amadeus? It gave me a new perspective on opera. Once I'd seen the film and realised I liked Mozart I began to pay him more attention. I was curious to know what the operas were that were featured in the movie and once I listened to recordings I found I recognised bits and that gave me some satisfaction. Then suddenly I'd hear snippets of his operas on classical music stations and realised I recognised his style too. Eventually I realised I was appreciating opera, something I thought I'd never do.


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## Guest (Nov 2, 2007)

SAVED BY WAGNER!!!!!!

I like it!!!! I really like it!!!!! 

I tried and tired to no avail then i forced myself to buy Das Rheingold. 
The rich orchestration fit everything perfectly, it was like it just clicked. So weird yet so amazing. 

Don't worry all i renounce renouncing opera.


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## oisfetz (Dec 11, 2006)

To me, opera voices and singing is not other thing but screams with technique.
And I've never stand screams. Hate opera all my life, and when I was borne,
Hitler was winning the war.


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## marval (Oct 29, 2007)

You might like to try operetta, say for instance Gilbert and Sullivan. It is very light hearted and easy to understand. Good music with humerous limericks. A good start before you move on to more serious opera, just a suggestion it worked for me.


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## RicardoTheTexan (Nov 6, 2007)

Azathoth said:


> I've been trying to expand my musical tastes lately, and I figured I might as well move in to opera. Thing is, I don't seem to _get it_ in the way other people do.
> 
> I've seen two or three operas in my life, and have an obsessed friend who sent me some tracks, but I don't get it. It's not that I don't appreciate choral music (_Messiah_ rocks my world) but opera just doesn't work for me. I end up with that really stereotypical teenager reaction of, "Okay, fat people in a stupid story singing really loud. Great."
> 
> ...


You don't seem to be familiar with a (fairly small) number of opera listener's prerequisites. It's not rocket science, but it takes a little time and effort to master them. Just a little bit.

Your choice of first operas is TOTALLY wrong. Seriously. You should probably start with Verdi's Rigoletto - but ... Before you do, familiarize yourself with the story, follow the lyrics closely, etc. If that doesn't work, try Puccini's Tosca.


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## Hexameron (Oct 7, 2006)

I never got around to loving opera but only for the reason that there are too many other compositions in orchestral, chamber, and instrumental genres to explore.

One work, however, permanently opened my mind to the power of operatic voice: Beethoven's *Missa Solemnis*. To me, listening to choral music (masses as well as oratorios) is a good way to help broaden your tastes for opera.

If you are a piano fan, you can also expose yourself to the countless operatic paraphrases and transcriptions of famous operas. Before I saw Bellini's Norma, for example, I listened to a mélange of transcriptions and fantasies by Liszt, Thalberg, Herz and Czerny and before I knew it, I was rooting for the arrival of the Casta Diva aria.


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## RicardoTheTexan (Nov 6, 2007)

Bellini for an opera newbie? I don't think so. What next, Monteverdi?

There are, really, when all is said and done, only sixteen great operas. Choose wisely.


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## Morigan (Oct 16, 2006)

I don't think that one has to necesserily start with late romantic italian operas... Mozart was what got me into it, really. But I also enjoyed operettas before that.


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## ChamberNut (Jan 30, 2007)

RicardoTheTexan said:


> There are, really, when all is said and done, *only sixteen great operas*. Choose wisely.


Really?
Which ones?


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## Hexameron (Oct 7, 2006)

I was not suggesting Bellini at all. If you read the narrative of my post, you will see that I was merely relating that in my experience being familiar with the numbers and melodies of operas through piano fantasies helped me appreciate the actual opera better. But this would only apply if the fellow was a pianophile, genuinely interested in listening to the early Romantic operatic paraphrases.


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## RicardoTheTexan (Nov 6, 2007)

ChamberNut said:


> Really?
> Which ones?


The good ones.

Well, if you're REALLY interested ... Hmm ... It normally takes me close to three hours (at my seminars) to prepare folks for the ultimate list. The list is the clincher, really. How about this ... I'll give you a hint ... Those sixteen operas were written by five composers. Shocking, isn't it?


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## RicardoTheTexan (Nov 6, 2007)

Hexameron said:


> I was not suggesting Bellini at all. If you read the narrative of my post, you will see that I was merely relating that in my experience being familiar with the numbers and melodies of operas through piano fantasies helped me appreciate the actual opera better. But this would only apply if the fellow was a pianophile, genuinely interested in listening to the early Romantic operatic paraphrases.


I have read your post, and I have followed the narrative. Still (in my humble, very personal, etc, etc opinion) - citing Bellini is ... hmm ... all I'm saying is that mentioning Andrew Lloyd Webber (who did write an opera once) or Monteverdi (who wrote a few) would have been just as ... well, odd.


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## ChamberNut (Jan 30, 2007)

RicardoTheTexan said:


> The good ones.
> 
> Well, if you're REALLY interested ... Hmm ... It normally takes me close to three hours (at my seminars) to prepare folks for the ultimate list. The list is the clincher, really. How about this ... I'll give you a hint ... Those sixteen operas were written by *five composers*. Shocking, isn't it?


Verdi, Puccini, Wagner, Mozart and Rossini? Or Bizet?


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## Guest (Nov 9, 2007)

RicardoTheTexan said:


> Bellini for an opera newbie? I don't think so. What next, Monteverdi?
> 
> There are, really, when all is said and done, only sixteen great operas. Choose wisely.


Hello. I'm quite interested in opera although I do not pretend to be an expert by any stretch of the imagination. It certainly might appear from your various posts thus far that you may have a lot to offer this forum on this subject.

I am intrigued by your statement that there are "only 16 great operas". I wonder if you would kindly tell me what you consider these to be, and how you reached your conclusion. I realise that another member asked you this same question but that you have not yet answered it. Don't be shy. Thank you so much.


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## ChamberNut (Jan 30, 2007)

Mango! Welcome back.


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## Hexameron (Oct 7, 2006)

Mango said:


> I am intrigued by your statement that there are "only 16 great operas". I wonder if you would kindly tell me what you consider these to be, and how you reached your conclusion. I realise that another member asked you this same question but that you have not yet answered it. Don't be shy. Thank you so much.


I think the catch of Ricardo's provocative statement is that we have to buy his "Getting Opera" course to find out which 16 are truly the "greatest."


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## Guest (Nov 9, 2007)

Hexameron said:


> I think the catch of Ricardo's provocative statement is that we have to buy his "Getting Opera" course to find out which 16 are truly the "greatest."


Thank you Hexameron. I'm sure something positive may emerge yet. Note that "positive" could mean anything. May I suggest that if Ricardo shows up again, and still hasn't provided an answer, we might gently probe this matter further.


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## Chi_townPhilly (Apr 21, 2007)

I look at it this way... since we have previously been visited by an individual who had claimed that all of the greatest works of Western Art Music were composed by two individuals (and for those of you just tuning in, I'm not making this up), to then be exposed to someone who opines that all of the greatest operas are penned by 5 persons represents an evolutionary advance, a positive upgrade, a veritable "Great Leap Forward" for our humble board.

(But seriously, folks) I, too, look forward to a spririted, free exchange of ideas.

Maybe someone can start a "one-hit wonder" opera thread (e.g.: Bizet, Smetana, Gounod, Leoncavallo, Mascagni, etc.)


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## Guest (Nov 9, 2007)

Chi_town/Philly said:


> I look at it this way... since we have previously been visited by an individual who had claimed that all of the greatest works of Western Art Music were composed by two individuals (and for those of you just tuning in, I'm not making this up), to then be exposed to someone who opines that all of the greatest operas are penned by 5 persons represents an evolutionary advance, a positive upgrade, a veritable "Great Leap Forward" for our humble board.
> 
> (But seriously, folks) I, too, look forward to a spririted, free exchange of ideas.
> 
> Maybe someone can start a "one-hit wonder" opera thread (e.g.: Bizet, Smetana, Gounod, Leoncavallo, Mascagni, etc.)


Yes well, you know how I'm fascinated by people with such views. I'm only too ready to exchange opinions with them in the hope of learning something new. Let's hope we can get a good discussion going on these 16 operas. It should be stimulating, and I'm looking forward to it, as clearly you are too Chi_town.


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## LFcatface (Nov 21, 2007)

Hi Notserp,

There is hope for you, you say that you have been listening to opera for 10 years but you didn't mention that you are only 18 years old, I saw that in your profile. 

Some of the time you were listening to mature adult voices, you yourself had an unchanged child's voice. It is understandable that you did not relate to the sound of an operatic voice.

There have also been studies that show that there is a connection between the vibrato in operatic singing and the expression of human emotion. I wonder if you have thought about your aversion to opera in this context?

The human voice was the first musical instrument and most great musicians try to get their instruments to "sing". Vibrato in singing is the result of not keeping tension in muscles around the voice box which results in fluctuation of pitch.

But hey everyone has their taste. You are a banjo player and today as I walked past a banjo player performing outside my companion was so horrified by the sound he wanted to club the guy with his instrument. Luckily i was there to stop it!


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## johnnie cocaine (Nov 29, 2007)

For an American, I have always felt that Porgy and Bess was an excellent starting point for newbies. 

Its an American story, set to American music and told in English.


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## Rondo (Jul 11, 2007)

I was what one would consider _operaphobic_ at one time, until I saw an excerpt of Fidelio performed by Walter Berry, and conducted by Klemperor from the early 60s. Im not sure if that is a good "beginner" piece for non-listeners, but it definitely drew me!


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## Breogan (Sep 24, 2007)

Strangely, I really enjoy opera when I'm able to watch the singers, be it on video or in an opera house, but I have a difficult time sitting through an opera album without getting bored.


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## Ephemerid (Nov 30, 2007)

Admittedly I'm rarely interested in opera, the only real exception being Debussy's Pelleas et Melisande and a couple oratorio-dramas by Stravinsky (Oedipus & Persephone), though those are not strictly "operas" -- and, even firther removed, Satie's Socrate.

It isn't the singing that is a turn off (I love much vocal music and that was my concentration at uni), but for some reason the melodrama of opera simply don't appeal to me-- its telling that I like Stravinsky's highly sylised dramas and the very low-key Pelleas. And that's not to say that I am not deeply moved-- I always cry at times when listening/watching Pelleas et Melisande (and often times Stravinsky's Oedipus, though that is also just due to Sophocles play, which I love).

There are a few (very few) musicals I like: Bernstein's West Side Story and also his "Mass" (and I have a soft spot for Jesus Christ Superstar, mostly for sentimetnal reasons).

As far as anyone being turned off by singing, I might suggest getting more exposure to choral music first, then choral music with soloists, then solo pieces (preferably art songs). That's how I warmed up to it when I was a teenager. 

And frankly some singers are better than others. Vibrato is good, but not to much (I've heard some singers use so much vibrato I was unable to even hear the actual pitch!).

Language can also be a barrier, though to be honest, I actually prefer music in a language other than English for some reason.


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## CampOfTheSaints (Dec 11, 2007)

I think it's just one of these those things: either you "get it", or you don't. I love opera, but it took me a while to find what I like and what I don't like. If, after sevral atempts to enjoy and understand it, you still don't like it, just move on and in a few years try again. We all change as we age, what you hate in your 20's, you may love in your 50's.


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## Chi_townPhilly (Apr 21, 2007)

Well... we're approaching the one-year anniversary of this thread. Since that time, we've all probably had a little more Opera in our lives- I was just wondering how our persepctives have changed in the last year. First, let me address some observations:


Breogan said:


> Strangely, I really enjoy opera when I'm able to watch the singers, be it on video or in an opera house, but I have a difficult time sitting through an opera album without getting bored.


This isn't strange at all! I think that this statement is in perfect concord with my wife's feelings on the topic. Phil Goulding in his book "Classical Music" also fully discloses that he has "a predjudice againt unseen opera..."


Azathoth said:


> [Tristan und Isolde] was cool, but I still don't get Wagner.


Also a frequent occurrence! Many opera fans come to Wagner _last_. (Some never quite warm to him at all... and there's absolutely nothing wrong with that, unless [like one north-of-the-border published author who will remain nameless] you actively try to proselytize hostility.)

So, the questions that fire my curiosity are 1) are there any operas/opera composers that have resonated positively with us in the last year? and 2) is there any way to tell if we will ever enjoy Wagner? If so, what could those indicators be? I can't really address the first question until it's answered. As to the second question- I think it comes down to this: do you enjoy any of the overtures and "bleeding chunks?" If the answer is "no" in virtually all cases, then Wagner will be one of those composers that will never bring enjoyment to you. If the answer's "yes," then the chance of enjoying full-scale Wagner later on is roughly proportional to the length of the "bleeding chunk" that represents your current exposure capacity.
If we can enjoy *Götterdämmerung*'s "Immolation Scene," for instance, then the chances that we'll enjoy fully-staged Wagner later on are quite good. 
If our limit is defined by something like *Tannhäuser*'s "Venusberg Music," it's more likely than not. 
The "Entry of the Meistersingers" and "Dance of the Apprentices" from Act III of *Die Meistersinger* puts us about at the 'break-even' point. 
Too much less than that and you'll probably agree with Rossini's 'bon mot' about "beautiful moments and awful half-hours." Although I've always found this to be a curious statement from the composer of 'William Tell,' a nearly 4-hour Leviathan that I find to be more corpulent than ANYTHING Wagner ever did (not even excepting 'Rienzi!')
Enough soap box for now. That prolixity aside, I _really am _greatly interested in the answer to Question One!


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## SamGuss (Apr 14, 2008)

My girlfriend likes operas - whether seen or unseen (and is a Wagner fan too). I do find myself liking some opera music without the singing or perhaps it's the incedental music I like? My example on this would be the L'Arlesiene and Carmen suites by Bizet. I am not able to enjoy long periods of listening to opera yet - short chunks here and there are fine.


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## Rondo (Jul 11, 2007)

SamGuss:

Have you heard Grieg's _Peer Gynt_?


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## Artemis (Dec 8, 2007)

In an attempt to answer C-T-P's questions a few post above, opera (or "music drama" in the case of Wagner) is not my favourite genre, but I'm very happy listening to it occasionally, and sometimes for quite long stints. 

I have most of Mozart's and all Wagner's works, plus several of the famous works by Puccini, Verdi, Donizetti, Bizet (and one or two others, eg Tchaikovsky). In the case of Handel's opera, I have not purchased any CDs, but I do have quite a few of the more famous arias derived mainly from various radio recordings. The same applies to several other major opera works - Beethoven's "Fidelio", Britten's "Peter Grimes", Bellini's "Norma", and many others - where I only have the well-known material. 

Having purchased all this, I'm afraid to say that, with few exceptions, after one or two listens I found that I hardly ever wanted to play the whole CD(s) again. This has happened with many other non-opera CDs as well, if truth be told. After wrestling with my conscience, what I then did was to distil all my opera down just to the sections I like by creating MP3 playlists. I felt slightly guilty in doing this, but at least it gave me the opportunity to be selectve according to my tastes and thus much more inclined to wish to listen to it again. 

This netting down process gave me about 7-8 hours for each of Mozart and Wagner, 3 hours of Verdi, 2 hours of Puccini, etc. As a result, I reckon I have in total about 30 hours of listenable opera to my ears. I have given a copy of this set of MP3 files to a few friends (who, like me, are not opera enthusiasts but enjoy it in moderation) and they are delighted with it. 

I have thus found a way of enjoying opera and have helped out a few others. It's been an expensive process, but quite an educational one. It means that, if the need arises, I can waffle along with the opera buffs as I know what they're talking about, even though I don't in all honesty share their enthusiasm to the same degree. If asked to state my favourite works it would be undoubtedly Mozart's Don Giovanni and Le Nozze, and next to that I'd place Wagner's Tristan und Isolde, and Die Walkure.


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## oisfetz (Dec 11, 2006)

I'm certainly operaphobic. I haven't listen to a complete opera live or 
recorded in my life. Can't stand it. I love the music of many operas,
in particular Russian ones, but not the singed parts.Never listen to them.


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## SamGuss (Apr 14, 2008)

Rondo said:


> SamGuss:
> 
> Have you heard Grieg's _Peer Gynt_?


Not yet, but I'll try to smaple it later off of YouTube.

Edit: I did sample it and.... good stuff - thank you for the suggestion!


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## Badinerie (May 3, 2008)

Opera is of course Musical Drama. It was and is presented as a musical play. If you dont like Plays it may influence your appreciation of the format.
Part of enjoying opera, especially the classic opera, is being able to suspend your disbelief! A bit like watching a Sci-Fi movie or Historical fantasy. With Orchestral music there is no real 'time stamp' or 'Script' that pins it down to an Era or style in the way Opera does.

Tosca is presented today very much as it was first performed. Language attitudes and moral beliefs of the time the opera was written are very obvious and omnipresent. Some people will find it difficult to believe in the story or appreciate the drama.When I first started listenng to Opera's I found it helpful to follow the Libretto. There are of course some wonderful timeless pieces, ie La boheme, which is about a bunch of poverty stricken students messing up their lives! Many of us can relate to that!

The style in which Opera is performed was developed to push the music to the back of the theater and emphasise the moods of the piece. It has developed as a style for its own sake over the centuries, and yes..there are some Opera performers who have a vibrato you could drive a bus through, but there are performers in the world of orchestral music who have similar irritating habits! I suppose what I am saying is that It isnt at all natural that someone who loves Classical music would naturally love opera, or appreciate its foibles. But its ok!...it is allowed you know


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## deggial (Jan 20, 2013)

RicardoTheTexan said:


> Bellini for an opera newbie? I don't think so. What next, Monteverdi?
> 
> There are, really, when all is said and done, only sixteen great operas. Choose wisely.


I know this is a very old post (in a very old thread) and thankfully this chap isn't posting any more of this silliness - but I just had to say *no* to his opinion and his very silly *promo page*. Bellini, Monteverdi, Stockhausen, Ligeti - nobody's to say what _should_ be your starting point or which exactly are the operas that will end up rocking your world. Exploration is the beauty of it all, not following a recipe.


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

deggial said:


> I know this is a very old post (in a very old thread) and thankfully this chap isn't posting any more of this silliness - but I just had to say *no* to his opinion and his very silly *promo page*. Bellini, Monteverdi, Stockhausen, Ligeti - nobody's to say what _should_ be your starting point or which exactly are the operas that will end up rocking your world. Exploration is the beauty of it all, not following a recipe.


Absolutely. Say you have long been a fan of early music, listened to a few madrigals, and then thought - hmm, might move into opera. What would be better than to give Monteverdi or Cavalli a spin?


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

I am not a fan of opera, though I did attend about 10 operas in the 1980s and enjoyed it. I guess that is it. You have to attend to really get the experience. I do like listening to Beethoven's Fidelio, but not really any others. I kind of like Mussorgsky's Boris Godunov, but tried listening to a highlights CD of it the other day and decided it just doesn't work--have to be there for that one. I like the soprano voice but run from the typical soprano CD of Opera arias.


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## deggial (Jan 20, 2013)

TallPaul said:


> I do like listening to Beethoven's Fidelio, but not really any others.
> 
> [...]
> 
> I like the soprano voice but run from the typical soprano CD of Opera arias.


Fidelio sounds a lot like other operas from that period so that should work, no? what is the typical soprano CD, arias from La Boheme, Tosca, Traviata, that kind of thing?


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## Flamme (Dec 30, 2012)

I m a lso more fond of instrumentals...String ones...Im not prone to vocals...


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

deggial said:


> Fidelio sounds a lot like other operas from that period so that should work, no? what is the typical soprano CD, arias from La Boheme, Tosca, Traviata, that kind of thing?


I like the story in Fidelio and avoid operas with soap opera type stories of love triangles etc.

I don't know on the soprano arias, as I only recall checking out a few discs at the music store, but I do have an example of soprano that I really love. The voice is very beautiful and the pieces she sings are delightful:









Other than that, the three sopranos on Handel's Nabal (Boog, Heijden, and Perillo), while very different from Louise, are very beautiful too:


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## Rackon (Apr 9, 2013)

mamascarlatti said:


> Absolutely. Say you have long been a fan of early music, listened to a few madrigals, and then thought - hmm, might move into opera. What would be better than to give Monteverdi or Cavalli a spin?


Indeed, Monteverdi was my first (and still great) opera love. I was exposed to "early" music through liturgical music used in Catholic worship. I sang in a children's church choir, discovered Monteverdi's vespers and madrigals, fell in love with the balletto Tirsi e Clori, and thence to L'Orfeo and Poppea...all by the time I was a freshman in high school. In high school I fell in love with Mozart, Handel and Massenet; I studied art song, arias and suchlike in voice class, plus what I was exposed to in chorus, choir etc. Got to be a shephardess in Amahl, so I was actually *in* a produced opera before I saw a full live one from the audience.

I did listen to classical music growing up (plus rock, pop and soul), studied piano and organ. I was a Wagnerite by college - my first "real" opera was LOC Die Walkure with Nilsson.

I do think the "operatic" voice can be an obstacle for some people. Even Sylvia McNair, who started as a violinist in the pit at IU Opera, used to think opera was primarily "all those people screaming on stage." How one gets around this can vary: dipping into operetta, Porgy and Bess, orchestral songs, whatever works depending on the neophyte's taste and experience. I often feel big voices with wide vibrato are best avoided initially, and possibly modern, dense or less tuneful operas.

But you never know what will actually hook someone. I took a college friend, a confirmed operaphobe, to a Vickers Peter Grimes in the early 70s - he was gobsmacked and remains an opera fan to this day. Another friend came to opera through LOTR to the Ring cycle.

While I loved early and baroque opera, as wellI as Mozart, Weber, Wagner, Massenet, Puccini, Strauss, Berg and Britten, I was notoriously resistant to Verdi and most of the bel canto rep as a young person. My music major friends were aghast that I - a singer - could prefer the trashy and superficial Puccini to the great Verdi. (Too much oom pah pah in the orchestration for me I think). It was only later, aftafter hearing great artists perform his works in house, that I finally "got" it. Middle and late Verdi is now a great love of mine. And I still love Puccini. Mostly.


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## deggial (Jan 20, 2013)

TallPaul said:


> I like the story in Fidelio and avoid operas with soap opera type stories of love triangles etc.
> 
> I don't know on the soprano arias, as I only recall checking out a few discs at the music store, but I do have an example of soprano that I really love. The voice is very beautiful and the pieces she sings are delightful


sounds like you would do well with Baroque and more contemporary opera, skipping the Romantic stuff. The love triangle stuff happens a lot, but just try to take a light-hearted approach to it  or listen to opera like you would to instrumental music and skip the plot altogether.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

deggial said:


> sounds like you would do well with Baroque and more contemporary opera, skipping the Romantic stuff. The love triangle stuff happens a lot, but just try to take a light-hearted approach to it  or listen to opera like you would to instrumental music and skip the plot altogether.


Appreciate the advice. As an opera novice I don't really even know the categories. Will look up some listings of Baroque operas.


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## rgz (Mar 6, 2010)

TallPaul said:


> Appreciate the advice. As an opera novice I don't really even know the categories. Will look up some listings of Baroque operas.


The most common recommendations will be Handel's *Giulio Cesare* and Rameau's *Les Indes Galantes* along with Monteverdi, who kind of straddles Renaissance / Baroque.

Sample from *Giulio Cesare*: 



Sample from *Les Indes Galantes*:


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

A good intro to opera might be NAXOS' Opera Explained series. Here is Fidelio. There are others.







A review I read says it tells the story with a number of musical extracts.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

I think what one has to do is get a good DVD of an opera (for Fidelio I highly recommend the Bernstein DVD) and watch it with the English subtitles. Maybe have to watch it more than once until you get familiar with the work. Then when you listen on CD the imagry will be in your mind and surely you will enjoy it much more. It worked for me anyway.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

rgz said:


> The most common recommendations will be Handel's *Giulio Cesare* and Rameau's *Les Indes Galantes* along with Monteverdi, who kind of straddles Renaissance / Baroque.
> 
> Sample from *Giulio Cesare*:
> 
> ...


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Given you are a music lover, love of opera is a matter of personality. There are some people who cannot for the life of them work out why people should sing rather than do the natural thing - speak. To those folk opera will alwAys be a closed shop as they cannot suspend disbelief into a totally unreal situation.
For myself opera must be done with believable characters. Hence (eg) Heppner playing the starving Florestan in Fidelio just raises a laugh as does an ample soprano playing Mimi. When Mozart or Verdi is done well on stage it can be riveting. However, I nearly always prefer to listen to Wagner as his stage directions are so impossible to achieve that it is better to imagine it than to see it. Wagner also requires mature singers, many of whom are of necessity pretty large. So while you are watching the Valkyries ride, you are also praying for the welfare of their horses. Most distracting!


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## LordBlackudder (Nov 13, 2010)

it's ancient entertainment like harry potter in the old days. i suppose it is inevitable we will detach from it.


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## Aramis (Mar 1, 2009)

LordBlackudder said:


> it's ancient entertainment like harry potter in the old days. i suppose it is inevitable we will detach from it.


lolllz u Xcrazy b0y xDDDDDD


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## deggial (Jan 20, 2013)

DavidA said:


> There are some people who cannot for the life of them work out why people should sing rather than do the natural thing - speak.


I wonder if these people like music at all. After all, pop song lyrics could be conveyed via speech as well.


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