# Paul McCartney talking about Classical Music



## PresenTense (May 7, 2016)

John Tavener and Paul McCartney


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## Casebearer (Jan 19, 2016)

God bless the ignorant but I'm not God. :devil:


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## PresenTense (May 7, 2016)

Casebearer said:


> God bless the ignorant but I'm not God. :devil:


Thanks, you made him cry.


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## TwoFlutesOneTrumpet (Aug 31, 2011)

Young Paul was pretty ignorant of classical music. He learned about it later in life.


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## Olias (Nov 18, 2010)

For someone who never had "proper" musical training, his experiments with what I call "Art Music" were pretty decent. "Standing Stone" and the "Liverpool Oratorio" were certainly as good attempts as many other trained composers.


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## brianvds (May 1, 2013)

Casebearer said:


> God bless the ignorant but I'm not God. :devil:


I'm sure he didn't intend it this way, but he comes across as the Donald Trump of music.


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## cimirro (Sep 6, 2016)

I'm already waiting the thread about Elvis Presley, B.B.King, Roger Waters and Jimi Hendrix (and the contemporary revolutionary Jay Z too, why not?)... speaking about the honest and wonderful contribution of them to the classical composition world... :lol:
by the way, what Oprah Winfrey thinks about classical music? that must be soooooooo interesting...


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

I've still have a feeling we had this thread before.


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## Bettina (Sep 29, 2016)

Pugg said:


> I've still have a feeling we had this thread before.


I know, it does seem familiar! There was a similar thread about Frank Zappa's opinion of classical music...maybe that's why we're getting deja vu.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Bettina said:


> I know, it does seem familiar! There was a similar thread about Frank Zappa's opinion of classical music...maybe that's why we're getting deja vu.


Thank goodness I am awake properly. :lol:


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## TwoFlutesOneTrumpet (Aug 31, 2011)

Pugg said:


> Thank goodness I am awake properly. :lol:


We should have a sticky thread about famous musicians' ignorant opinions on classical music.

Incidentally, how can you be awake improperly?


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## brianvds (May 1, 2013)

cimirro said:


> by the way, what Oprah Winfrey thinks about classical music? that must be soooooooo interesting...


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## cimirro (Sep 6, 2016)

brianvds said:


>


Winfrey talks classical!!!!!! Zarlino never imagined such evolution in the art :lol:


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## SONNET CLV (May 31, 2014)

I'm pleased that Sir Paul wrote those songs that he has. And the ones in collaboration with a fellow named John. I'm glad we have that music to cherish. I'll leave it at that.


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## cimirro (Sep 6, 2016)

well, we live in a world where people who knows only 4 chords and a small lexicon are loved... even if a trained monkey can do better than this...


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## Guest (Feb 27, 2017)

cimirro said:


> well, we live in a world where people who knows only 4 chords and a small lexicon are loved... even if a trained monkey can do better than this...


You are totally wrong,exept when you mean donkey.


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## cimirro (Sep 6, 2016)

Traverso said:


> You are totally wrong,exept when you mean donkey.


I do not understand donkey language, but, by some strange reason it sounded something like "ShhhStop" ShhhStop it" several times :lol: (just joking, it seems the donkey enjoy it at lot) - By the way, donkeys are very smart!


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## JAS (Mar 6, 2013)

Ah, the famous Concerto for Trumpet and Donkey. (I actually prefer it in a more historically informed performance.)


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## Sloe (May 9, 2014)

cimirro said:


> well, we live in a world where people who knows only 4 chords and a small lexicon are loved... even if a trained monkey can do better than this...


What do you think of that McCartney said that Monteverdi reminds him of early Beatles because he knew few chords?


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## cimirro (Sep 6, 2016)

Sloe said:


> What do you think of that McCartney said that Monteverdi reminds him of early Beatles because he knew few chords?


Well, that is quite annoying, this Sir clearly can't understand counterpoint, and he is called "professional musician"...
I ask myself, would a doctor be called "professional" without understanding the human anatomy?

Harmonically Monteverdi sounds simple, but I never heard less than 3 very well written "voices" (counterpoint) in his works.
His music was composed in a moment where the counterpoint was dealing with the beginning of the concept of harmony as we (except this Sir) know today.
I ask myself where in Beatles can we hear real counterpoint...?

The "blessed ignorance" is the worst thing to be said, he was trained in music like a dog is trained to sit. (this is the same with most part of pop culture musicians) 
A "trained-like-an-animal" person will never be "original" because all his possibilities came from the training. That means, he can't do much more than chords and a melody (and sometimes 3rds...) and there is nothing original in doing this.
He finds a Bernstein melody to be similar with other one he heard, well, "Hey Jude" starts quite similar (copy) to Bach's BWV 156 (or 2nd mov. from BWV.1056)
So what is the point of the "blessed ignorance"?

Anyway, the most annoying is he saying "the pop music is the classical of today"
I think the taxi driver was a God's angel trying to avoid more trash, unfortunately this Sir heard the devil inside him... :lol:
Paul lost the chance to keep quiet about these things he does not understand, and enters the history as a nice example of what media culture did wrong with the arts.

All the best
Artur Cimirro


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## Magnum Miserium (Aug 15, 2016)

cimirro said:


> Well, that is quite annoying, this Sir clearly can't understand counterpoint, and he is called "professional musician"...
> I ask myself, would a doctor be called "professional" without understanding the human anatomy?


More to the point: Would a doctor be called professional if he aced an exam on human anatomy but never practiced medicine? (Correct answer: No.) More so than, for example, a practitioner of traditional medicine who knows local remedies, or a midwife who knows how to help deliver a baby, or a soldier who knows how to field dress a wound? (Answer: No.)



cimirro said:


> Harmonically Monteverdi sounds simple, but I never heard less than 3 very well written "voices" (counterpoint) in his works.
> His music was composed in a moment where the counterpoint was dealing with the beginning of the concept of harmony as we (except this Sir) know today.


How about Ned Rorem and William Mann? Do they know it? (Correct answer: Yes.)

http://www.nybooks.com/articles/1968/01/18/the-music-of-the-beatles/
https://www.beatlesbible.com/1963/12/27/the-times-what-songs-the-beatles-sang-by-william-mann/



cimirro said:


> I ask myself where in Beatles can we hear *real *counterpoint...?


The answer is, of course, everywhere, except you used the magic word "real" which can mean anything and nothing.



cimirro said:


> The "blessed ignorance" is the worst thing to be said, he was trained in music like a dog is trained to sit. (this is the same with most part of pop culture musicians)
> A "trained-like-an-animal" person will never be "original" because all his possibilities came from the training.


Who trained him? (If you say George Martin you're wrong.)



cimirro said:


> That means, he can't do *much* more than chords and a melody (and sometimes 3rds...) and there is nothing original in doing this.


"much" - another magic word



cimirro said:


> He finds a Bernstein melody to be similar with other one he heard, well, "Hey Jude" starts quite similar (copy) to Bach's BWV 156 (or 2nd mov. from BWV.1056)
> So what is the point of the "blessed ignorance"?


About the same as the point of, let's say, Mozart writing "Gia la mensa é preparata" after Paisiello's "Donne vaghe," or Schubert writing "Der Lindenbaum" after the finale of Beethoven's sonata in F major Op. 54, or Tchaikovsky writing the beginning of act two of "Swan Lake" after the first movement of Schubert's unfinished symphony, or Stravinsky writing the opening of "Oedipus" after Verdi's "Pietà ti prende del mio dolore." Should I go on? I can go on.



cimirro said:


> Anyway, the most annoying is he saying "the pop music is the classical of today"


Yeah but he's probably right though.

(I mean, clearly, Helmut Lachenmann and Paul McCartney both did something different from (and less than) what Beethoven did, but come on, does anybody really believe Lachenmann is closer to the old man?) (Ah, see, now I used a magic word, "really." I'm still right, though.)


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## cimirro (Sep 6, 2016)

Well, I'm sorry if you feel offended when someone dislike your personal taste.

I don't see why I have to agree with Mann or Rorem tastes.
They do not give any special technical information about why Beatles are "wonderful" to the music history.
They are product of media and marketing, but you can enjoy it as much as you want.
Unfortunately there is no single track in their repertoire that can be used to say they made any revolution in the music.
Well, you can say this if you do not know the baroque/classical/romantic music repertoire, then, yes, they probably made a miracle for such kind of people.
What they say in their lyrics I leave to the poets discuss, I discuss music.



Magnum Miserium said:


> "The answer is, of course, everywhere"


Yes, I just need forget what is counterpoint and its history, and start to imagine that counterpoint now is just two notes together based in a doubtful taste.
As a professional composer, pianist, music theorist and teacher, I can't refuse the past and accept this as true and that this music is wonderfully done just because fanatic people and media wants this to be true.



Magnum Miserium said:


> "Who trained him? (If you say George Martin you're wrong.)"


If I can answer is Sorabji's style... "I don't bloody care!"
training a dog, normally needs someone.
training a pop musician, sometimes is just necessary the repetition of listening and trying to imitate, because people are supposed to "think"...



Magnum Miserium said:


> "much" - another magic word


Criticizing someone is interesting, specially when you have arguments...



Magnum Miserium said:


> "About the same as the point of, let's say, Mozart writing "Gia la mensa é preparata" after Paisiello's "Donne vaghe," or Schubert writing "Der Lindenbaum" after the finale of Beethoven's sonata in F major Op. 54, or Tchaikovsky writing the beginning of act two of "Swan Lake" after the first movement of Schubert's unfinished symphony, or Stravinsky writing the opening of "Oedipus" after Verdi's "Pietà ti prende del mio dolore." Should I go on? I can go on."


You can go on, but that will not make "Hey Jude" become "Swan Lake", "Sonata", "Opera", "Symphony" or any other thing... it is just a song...



Magnum Miserium said:


> "Yeah but he's probably right though.
> (I mean, clearly, Helmut Lachenmann and Paul McCartney both did something different from (and less than) what Beethoven did, but come on, does anybody really believe Lachenmann is closer to the old man?) (Ah, see, now I used a magic word, "really." I'm still right, though.)"


I'm amazed you also use magic words...

Basically around 99% of pop music are "songs" (in this case 0,5% is music without a "necessary form", normally they are "improvised", and the rest of 0,5% is a "mystery"...). Songs are composed since Hurrian times... (long before J.C - not "J.Z.")
Everyone can compose songs as much as they want, no problems, I also made mine, but this is not enough to compare Beatles or anyone with Beethoven or other classical composer.
So comparison between "only-pop-song-aesthetic-composers" and people who worked hard to make hundreds of different forms is a lack of respect with the art of music.
This is why we call "popular art" and "classical art"
Almost everyone can compose a simple song, few can compose a strict fugue or any other form different from the standard A-B-A.

The work of a professional composer is to compose. If you do all the time the same kind of thing and deals only with how long it takes based in the repetitions of the same thing, well, then you are not a special composer. BUT THEN... comes the market...
Well, market is market! Art is Art! I discuss only the second.

Please do not hate me for free, give me a credit or hate me with some reason and in the second case I'll admit you are a fair enemy. 

All the best
Artur Cimirro


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## Magnum Miserium (Aug 15, 2016)

cimirro said:


> Yes, I just need forget what is counterpoint and its history, and start to imagine that counterpoint now is just two notes together based in a doubtful taste.
> As a professional composer, pianist, music theorist and teacher, I can't refuse the past and accept this as true and that this music is wonderfully done just because fanatic people and media wants this to be true.


Wollt ihr nach Regeln messen,
was nicht nach eurer Regeln Lauf,
der eignen Spur vergessen,
sucht davon erst die Regeln auf

And of course according to "the past" "The Rite of Spring" has no counterpoint either.



cimirro said:


> If I can answer is Sorabji's style... "I don't bloody care!"
> training a dog, normally needs someone.
> training a pop musician, sometimes is just necessary the repetition of listening and trying to imitate, because people are supposed to "think"...


Then it's not like training a dog.



cimirro said:


> You can go on, but that will not make "Hey Jude" become "Swan Lake", "Sonata", "Opera", "Symphony" or any other thing... it is just a song...


"Der Lindenbaum" is also "just a song" except of course it isn't.



cimirro said:


> Almost everyone can compose a simple song, few can compose a strict fugue or any other form different from the standard A-B-A.


Millions - literally - of absolutely insignificant music students can compose a strict fugue.



cimirro said:


> Well, market is market! Art is Art! I discuss only the second.


Name a currently working classical composer whose work you like.


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## cimirro (Sep 6, 2016)

Magnum Miserium said:


> Wollt ihr nach Regeln messen,
> was nicht nach eurer Regeln Lauf,
> der eignen Spur vergessen,
> sucht davon erst die Regeln auf


You forgot to give the credit: Richard Wagner.
and by the way, I was not informed he was the new ruler of art based in his libretti...



Magnum Miserium said:


> And of course according to "the past" "The Rite of Spring" has no counterpoint either


Yes, and a great harmony knowledge is there! Did Beatles made such harmony at any time?



Magnum Miserium said:


> Then it's not like training a dog.


No, it is just similar to training a dog.



Magnum Miserium said:


> "Der Lindenbaum" is also "just a song" except of course it isn't.


Yes, it is a song, anyway, it is not the only kind of music that makes one study Schubert's genius.



Magnum Miserium said:


> Millions - literally - of absolutely insignificant music students can compose a strict fugue.


Wow, in this case I think they need to study urgently with Sir Paul...



Magnum Miserium said:


> Name a currently working classical composer whose work you like.


My pleasure:
ALLAN CROSSMAN 
SAMUEL PERUZOLLO-VIEIRA
ALEXEY LARIN 
ALFREDO VOTTA 
SOLON MENDES
WAGNER PRADO
GILBERTO AGOSTINHO
FRANÇOISE CHOVEAUX 
ARTHUR AVANESOV
RICARDO TACUCHIAN 
EDINO KRIEGER 
EMILE NAOUMOFF 
DIMITRI CERVO 
GEROGE CRUMB
ALISTAIR HINTON

need more?

And of course, there are a lot of very good composers who I know thanks to the composition competition I organize each year  
Yasuhiro Takenaka, Davide Verotta, Simone Cardini, José Orlando Alves, Paulo do Nascimento Brito, Karen Lemon...
I work with most part of them.

Well, don't you know them? probably you are too busy with "the market" or with Beatles songs...

All the best
Artur


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## Magnum Miserium (Aug 15, 2016)

cimirro said:


> You forgot to give the credit: Richard Wagner.


I didn't forget.



cimirro said:


> Yes, and a great harmony knowledge is there!


Not according to "the past."



cimirro said:


> Did Beatles made such harmony at any time?


Did the Beatles makes great harmony? Of course.



cimirro said:


> Yes, it is a song, anyway, it is not the only kind of music that makes one study Schubert's genius.


This is an evasion of the fact that if all we had of Schubert's work was his songs he'd still be one of the most studied composers.



cimirro said:


> My pleasure:
> ALLAN CROSSMAN
> SAMUEL PERUZOLLO-VIEIRA
> ALEXEY LARIN
> ...


I only know George Crumb, who is not known for writing strict fugues.



cimirro said:


> Well, don't you know them? probably you are too busy with "the market" or with Beatles songs...


No I'm too busy with Caroline Marçot and Juhani Nuorvala.


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## cimirro (Sep 6, 2016)

Magnum Miserium said:


> Not according to "the past."


It depends of what are you calling "the past". Studying music is not studying only the past. Anyway refusing the past is ignorance.



Magnum Miserium said:


> Did the Beatles makes great harmony? Of course.


Yes, and a trained monkey can do the same "great harmony" they did



Magnum Miserium said:


> This is an evasion of the fact that if all we had of Schubert's work was his songs he'd still be one of the most studied composers.


Well, no doubts. Still no relation to Beatles compositions. Schubert had used harmony, counterpoint and forms much more...



Magnum Miserium said:


> I only know George Crumb, who is not known for writing strict fugues.


Anyway he never compared himself to Menteverdi...
The problem, if you still did not understand, is Sir Paul saying Beatles are the same like Monteverdi because Monteverdi "didn't knew too much chords" according to this Sir.
In this case I would suggest Sir. Paul to write a strict fugue.
If the comparison were between Beatles and Busoni, I would have asked something related to Busoni compositions.



Magnum Miserium said:


> Caroline Marçot and Juhani Nuorvala.


Good, more names or these are the only examples?

All the best
Artur


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## Magnum Miserium (Aug 15, 2016)

cimirro said:


> It depends of what are you calling "the past". Studying music is not studying only the past.


The words were yours:



cimirro said:


> Yes, I just need forget what is counterpoint and its history, and start to imagine that counterpoint now is just two notes together based in a doubtful taste.
> As a professional composer, pianist, music theorist and teacher, I can't refuse the past and accept this as true and that this music is wonderfully done just because fanatic people and media wants this to be true.





cimirro said:


> Anyway refusing the past is ignorance.


Either you have to be willing to "refus[e] the past" or you can't regard "The Rite of Spring" as good music. You can't have it both ways.



cimirro said:


> Yes, and a trained monkey can do the same "great harmony" they did


Saying the same thing over and over again doesn't make it stop being wrong (and at some point it would be less work to just read the Rorem and Mann articles). Anyway, you said you like Brian Eno, whose harmony is more chic but even less complex than the Beatles'.



cimirro said:


> The problem, if you still did not understand, is Sir Paul saying Beatles are the same like Monteverdi because Monteverdi "didn't knew too much chords" according to this Sir.


No he didn't say that (and neither did Sloe in their paraphrase). (You can read McCartney's original words here: https://groups.google.com/forum/m/#!topic/rec.music.classical/UZVmE-ivE0Q)



cimirro said:


> In this case I would suggest Sir. Paul to write a strict fugue.


Monteverdi never wrote a strict fugue.



cimirro said:


> Good, more names or these are the only examples?


How would you know if they're good? You don't know their music.


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## cimirro (Sep 6, 2016)

I have the impression you are going to invite me for a duel at 6 am somewhere :lol:

My words:
It depends of what are you calling "the past". Studying music is not studying *only* the past.



Magnum Miserium said:


> Either you have to be willing to "refus[e] the past" or you can't regard "The Rite of Spring" as good music. You can't have it both ways.


No, "The Rite of Spring" was not composed yesterday it is already "past". I study and teach about the evolution of the music, and Beatles is not there, I'm sorry.
I don't know what you have been reading, but I'm sure you still did not read some very important books on these matters.
The music study is made of counterpoint, harmony, analysis, orchestration all of them related to history. And please remember, history is still made *today*.



Magnum Miserium said:


> Saying the same thing over and over again doesn't make it stop being wrong (and at some point it would be less work to just read the Rorem and Mann articles).


I already read them. No news there...
the problem maybe is that I never underrate someone who speak with me.
"Monkey" is a funny way to say what I mean is:
every "absolutely insignificant music students able to write a strict fugue" can do chords and a nice melody like Beatles. 
And that can be proved easily.



Magnum Miserium said:


> Anyway, you said you like Brian Eno, whose harmony is more chic but even less complex than the Beatles'.


PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE I NEVER SAID THAT!!!!!! this way is impossible to keep a discussion
(Now I see you take it as a personal thing, I'm sorry)
Your wrote:
"More importantly he also worked with himself"
because the given examples were Eno works with other pop artists
I said:
"Now I really agree"
because it is better to know his works than the works he made with others.
if you like it or not is another discussion
I never said "I like his music"...



Magnum Miserium said:


> No he didn't say that (and neither did Sloe in their paraphrase). (You can read McCartney's original words here: https://groups.google.com/forum/m/#!...al/UZVmE-ivE0Q)


Watch! starting at 1'29'' in the video in the first post.
I don't need read, I can listen his words there



Magnum Miserium said:


> Monteverdi never wrote a strict fugue.


NO???? Dear Maestro, can I ask you what is a strict fugue????
What theory book have you read about it? I'm quite curious now!
I have the impression you listened one or two works and read a list of works on a wikipedia.
of course he didn't composed a work called "Strict Fugue", but I would like to ask you to answer what is a strict fugue without using wikipedia as reference, please... ok?



Magnum Miserium said:


> How would you know if they're good? You don't know their music.


I said "Good" as "Good for you"
anyway, I'm afraid you do not know these videos yet

















Dear Magnum, I understand you love Beatles, no problems.
I do not dislike them as pop songs composers
But this is suposed to be a forum about classical music not pop song composers.
In a classical music point of view it is impossible to put Beatles among great names.
If you wish to speak about how much you love Beatles i'm pretty sure you are most welcome in a Beatles forum. 
Here I'm free to speak about the art music no matter what the market wants the people to believe.

If you want attack me personally, please do it by Private Message, I promisse I'll not leave you without answer. 

All the best
Artur


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## Sloe (May 9, 2014)

cimirro said:


> Well, that is quite annoying, this Sir clearly can't understand counterpoint, and he is called "professional musician"...


He gets paid for his music and had music for his living for the last 50 years so he is a professional musician. And unlike doctors there is no need for a license to make music. Nobody dies because of lack of understanding of counterpoint.


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## cimirro (Sep 6, 2016)

Sloe said:


> He gets paid for his music and had music for his living for the last 50 years so he is a professional musician. And unlike doctors there is no need for a license to make music. Nobody dies because of lack of understanding of counterpoint.


That is true. He is part of the market, like hip hop, rap, jazz, TV showsmen, etc, 
For some people they are the real artists - for others, like me, they are not.

It is still quite annoying to me that Sir Paul is called "professional musician"... no matter how much money he has received.

Nobody dies because of lack of understanding of counterpoint, but I don't need to agree with "blessed ignorance" and say "amen" because of the laziness of someone.

All the best
Artur


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## Magnum Miserium (Aug 15, 2016)

cimirro said:


> No, "The Rite of Spring" was not composed yesterday it is already "past".


The Beatles' newest song is 47 years old (as old today as "The Rite of Spring" was in 1960).



cimirro said:


> I already read them.


Then you made an incorrect statement here about the articles you claim to have read:



cimirro said:


> They do not give any special technical information about why Beatles are "wonderful" to the music history.


You may of course disagree with their technical information, but they do give it.



cimirro said:


> every "absolutely insignificant music students able to write a strict fugue" can do chords and a nice melody like Beatles.
> And that can be proved easily.


How, specifically, can it be easily proved?



cimirro said:


> PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE I NEVER SAID THAT!!!!!! this way is impossible to keep a discussion
> (Now I see you take it as a personal thing, I'm sorry)
> Your wrote:
> "More importantly he also worked with himself"
> ...


I apologize for misunderstanding. That said, Eno of course made his own records "with others" too.



cimirro said:


> Watch! starting at 1'29'' in the video in the first post.
> I don't need read, I can listen his words there


But he doesn't say, literally or substantively, what you claim he does, that is, that 'Beatles are the same like Monteverdi because Monteverdi "didn't knew too much chords"'.



cimirro said:


> NO???? Dear Maestro, can I ask you what is a strict fugue????


Something you can't give an example of Monteverdi writing, because he didn't.



cimirro said:


> I said "Good" as "Good for you"
> anyway, I'm afraid you do not know these videos yet


These videos all appear on page 1 of the YouTube search results for "Nuorvala."


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## cimirro (Sep 6, 2016)

Magnum Miserium said:


> The Beatles' newest song is 47 years old (as old today as "The Rite of Spring" was in 1960).


Yes! I agree. And Stravinsky is a classical composer, Beatles are not classical.



Magnum Miserium said:


> Then you made an incorrect statement here about the articles you claim to have read:
> You may of course disagree with their technical information, but they do give it.


It seems you understand "technical" as something about taste. We will never agree in such matter.
I disagree completely with Rorem. he speaks about his feeling and taste. He can speak about it, but taste does not rule art. 
My taste, your taste, Rorem taste, or Sir Paul taste makes no difference to the art. it is just an opinon.
Technically there is no information about the "Good melody-even perfect melody" more than saying "Good melody-even perfect melody"



Magnum Miserium said:


> How, specifically, can it be easily proved?


You can ask any of these millions of musicians you claimed exists doing strict fugues.
or better, ask any professional classical composer if he can compose a song similar to Beatles for a movie or some special project (pay him/her, because no one needs to work for free for you) and let me know If I'm wrong. If you still can't find one, try me as the last one.



Magnum Miserium said:


> I apologize for misunderstanding. That said, Eno of course made his own records "with others" too.


Now your are right.



Magnum Miserium said:


> But he doesn't say, literally or substantively, what you claim he does, that is, that 'Beatles are the same like Monteverdi because Monteverdi "didn't knew too much chords"'.


Why don't you write his exactly words here?



Magnum Miserium said:


> Something you can't give an example of Monteverdi writing, because he didn't.


We are not playing poker. Please, if you don't know something, that is ok.
"Strict Fugue" is a usual name for a music writting developed with a "Strict Canon" order
Fugues development changed a lot during those times of Monteverdi, most of them were written with another name "Ricercare" (I'm not mentioning Monteverdi made works with such name, ok?) - a nice theme for your research if you wish.

Several Works by Monteverdi (check his Masses) used this strict canon because he was aware of some theory books which already mentioned this technique and it was usual for almost 150 years already in his times.
Zarlino is just one single example of theoretical, but we have at least 3 more of great importance... do your research if you can and you will find them.



Magnum Miserium said:


> These videos all appear on page 1 of the YouTube search results for "Nuorvala."


Ahhh and this is why I'm supposed to still do not know the works? I just copy the links and never heard them?
you must have an unknown power... wow 

Well, let's do something useful. You keep loving pop Beatles, I keep loving classical music. Each one in each side.
I prefer "waste" my time with people who wants to think about the discussion, since you just want to try to find problems in my speech i have nothing more to answer you from now. But no bad feelings, please 

All the best
Artur


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## Magnum Miserium (Aug 15, 2016)

cimirro said:


> It seems you understand "technical" as something about taste.


I understand "technical" as technical.



cimirro said:


> Technically there is no information about the "Good melody-even perfect melody" more than saying "Good melody-even perfect melody"


Yes there is. (For example: 'until I realized it was made by triplets over the bar; the "surprise" here was that the Beatles had made so simple a process sound so complex to a professional ear')



cimirro said:


> You can ask any of these millions of musicians you claimed exists doing strict fugues.
> or better, ask any professional classical composer if he can compose a song similar to Beatles for a movie or some special project (pay him/her, because no one needs to work for free for you) and let me know If I'm wrong. If you still can't find one, try me as the last one.


You've changed from 'can do the same "great harmony" they did' to 'can do chords and a nice melody like the Beatles' to, finally, 'similar to the Beatles', the last of which avoids the question of aesthetic strength entirely and so misses the point.

The point is you can't write anything as great as one of the Beatles' best songs.



cimirro said:


> Why don't you write his exactly words here?


No particular reason, but since you ask, why don't you?



cimirro said:


> "Strict Fugue" is a usual name for a music writting developed with a "Strict Canon" order
> Fugues development changed a lot during those times of Monteverdi, most of them were written with another name "Ricercare" (I'm not mentioning Monteverdi made works with such name, ok?) - a nice theme for your research if you wish.


Fugue and ricerare are not the same thing.


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## cimirro (Sep 6, 2016)

Magnum Miserium said:


> I understand "technical" as technical.


ahhh ok, now I understand - Ha-haaaa!!!



Magnum Miserium said:


> 'until I realized it was made by triplets over the bar; the "surprise" here was that the Beatles had made so simple a process sound so complex to a professional ear')


Yes, triplets are a revolution in the musical world after Beatles!



Magnum Miserium said:


> You've changed from 'can do the same "great harmony" they did' to 'can do chords and a nice melody like the Beatles' to, finally, 'similar to the Beatles', the last of which avoids the question of aesthetic strength entirely and so misses the point.


Yes, Beatles great harmony = chords and (not so) nice melodies.
Ramones harmony is also similar to Beatles. But who cares?
Long life to the living Sir. Monteverdi who don't know what is polyphony. :cheers:



Magnum Miserium said:


> The point is you can't write anything as great as one of the Beatles' best songs.


Well, now I wonder where did you get my compositions scores?
You must be a new Copperfield to have such information about how I do compose :lol:

OK, I will start with the harmony
C major, F major, G major, F major, C major
Sounds good?
I think I'm going to write something that will make you twist and shout...

or maybe a nice slow song:
C major G major A minor F major 
Sounds great!
I'm sure you will love, 
I'll ask mother Mary for some words of wisdom.. Let's see...



Magnum Miserium said:


> No particular reason, but since you ask, why don't you?


Well, because you will say it is a lie of mine in the best childish way...



Magnum Miserium said:


> Fugue and ricerare are not the same thing.


and writing this is your way of proving? :lol:
now I understand why "Miserium"... (sorry for the joke) 

I'm sorry I have to leave now, there is a stone asking for a help...:tiphat:
All the best
Artur


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