# Why Don't Orchestras Memorize The Music?



## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

Pianists do, why not Orchestras?


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## Richard8655 (Feb 19, 2016)

I'd think coordination and synchronization between players vs. solo performer where timing doesn't matter. Interesting question.


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

Richard8655 said:


> I'd think coordination and synchronization between players vs. solo performer where timing doesn't matter. Interesting question.


But even during piano concertos, I don't believe the pianists tends to use sheet music during performances.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

They have. Take a look at a world class orchestra performing. They are looking for conductor cues much more often than at the scores in front of them.

Many world class orchestral musicians know the music in their sleep and don't need the music in front of them.


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## DaveM (Jun 29, 2015)

Orchestras have to play a far broader repertoire than any individual artist.


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## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

Orchestral players do need scores. why? 

Soloists play relatively few pieces in a year for one thing. A performer may have 30 concertos and 20 sonatas in his repertoire - but in a year may just work on 3-6 pieces - and the amount of work required to get a piece of to performance standard is mind boggling - sooner or later the piece will stick in the soloists memory. So it's not too much of a big deal.

Orchestras play far more music - dozens of pieces per year - and it's not feasible or necessary for orch members to learn pieces by heart.

Also many orch members can sit out a significant part of the work doing nothing at all except waiting to come in - therefore having a score and following it is really indispensible. Of course soloists also have to sit out a couple of dozen bars now and again - but they have done the mammoth job of memorising the whole piece - practicing with a piano reduction etc - it's their speciality to know when to come in.

one last thing - even if orch players could learn the piece by heart - as a conductor would you want to rely on the memory powers of 80 players? It would only take one or two with shaky memories and there would be a farce.

organists dont play by memory by the way. even virtuosos.


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## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

hpowders said:


> They have. Take a look at a world class orchestra performing. *They are looking for conductor cues* much more often than at the scores in front of them.
> 
> Many world class orchestral musicians know the music in their sleep and don't need the music in front of them.


yes but they do need their scores - a quick glance up at the conductor should not fool you into believing the orch would be happy with no scores.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

There's more than just knowing the music. The conductor may give dozens of instructions during a piece having to do with bowing, dynamics, and so forth, some of which may apply to some players and others all. The players dutifully note these in their scores so that they have some chance of giving a coherent performance after a usually limited number of rehearsals (rehearsal time being almost as expensive as real performance time).

The next conductor, even of the same work, may have an entirely different approach a give different directions.


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## EddieRUKiddingVarese (Jan 8, 2013)

Orchestras have very short attention spans and would much rather be playing rock and roll


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

Depends on the soloist. If it's Khatia Buniatishvili, the men need something to take their eyes off her. And the women too, so they don't get too envious!


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## Bettina (Sep 29, 2016)

The Aurora Orchestra has done a series of performances from memory. Based on the reviews that I've read, opinions have been divided on whether this is musically effective or not. Here's a review that addresses some of these issues:

http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-e...memory-and-francesco-piemontesi-10434661.html


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

When I was a kid, it was said that guest conductors used to be petrified in anticipation of conducting the New York Philharmonic because of the orchestra's sour collective disposition. They already knew the music inside and out. What could a guest conductor ever show them that they already didn't know?


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## EddieRUKiddingVarese (Jan 8, 2013)

Cause this is what happens when the Orchestra has sheet music...................


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

hpowders said:


> They have. Take a look at a world class orchestra performing. They are looking for conductor cues much more often than at the scores in front of them.
> Many world class orchestral musicians know the music in their sleep and don't need the music in front of them.


Right - big solos are virtually all memorized....solo, or soli spots are often memorized as well.


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

stomanek and Ken together nailed all the important points. Excellent answers!


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

hpowders said:


> When I was a kid, it was said that guest conductors used to be petrified in anticipation of conducting the New York Philharmonic because of the orchestra's sour collective disposition. They already knew the music inside and out. What could a guest conductor ever show them that they already didn't know?


Except that there were, and still are, plenty of top rate orchestras who also know "the music inside out" and do not have that reputation for a sour disposition so that seems more like a rationalization for them having been a bunch of arrogant <fill-in-the-blank>.


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## LiBardugo (Feb 12, 2017)

Maybe because they need to look for sound direction in the moment. I guess it depends from the situation and the tension the orchestras has to perform


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Captainnumber36 said:


> Pianists do, why not Orchestras?


Because the can't ( different instruments) and don't get paid as much as the "stars"


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## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

Pugg said:


> Because the can't ( different instruments) *and don't get paid as much as the "stars"*


Over a year elite stars like Lang Lang and Benedetti earn more than orch players - but most other soloists, for all their heroics, dont.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Note that during chamber concertos (eg Beethoven's Triple) soloists often use music to see where each other is. In addition there is the vast repertoire of orchestral pieces which only exceptional minds (certain conductors like Karajan, Toscanini) can memorise. Solti himself said he couldn't memorise who scores. Neither did Klemperer. So to ask orchestral musicians to (and know everyone else's) is a tall order


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## brianvds (May 1, 2013)

Personally I don't mind at all if even the soloists play from a score. It's the result that counts.


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

hpowders said:


> When I was a kid, it was said that guest conductors used to be petrified in anticipation of conducting the New York Philharmonic because of the orchestra's sour collective disposition. They already knew the music inside and out. What could a guest conductor ever show them that they already didn't know?


I heard a rumor/myth/joke about this a decade or two ago from insiders who were discussing the differences between guest conducting with the Boston Symphony versus the NY Phil. It went like this: Boston will generally save a bad conductor by more or less ignoring them and playing the piece the way they always do, whereas the NY Phil will do exactly what they ask while scowling. I have no idea whether there is any truth in this, but it would explain the fear. I don't think what you are saying about the disposition thing is true, however - come with a good interpretation and they will be with you. At least it always looked that way to me.


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## Delicious Manager (Jul 16, 2008)

Orchestras might play 2-3 separate programmes in a week. Every week. How can they possibly memorise all that music, amounting to several hours' playing time? Even the most prolific and busy soloists have a relatively small (compared to a busy professional orchestra) repertoire and have weeks, months and years to learn those pieces. An orchestra might play some works once only in the lifetime of any of its members, while soloists play the same pieces repeatedly.
The question suggests the poster might not appreciate just how much work professional orchestras actually do.


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

EdwardBast said:


> ......the differences between guest conducting with the Boston Symphony versus the NY Phil. It went like this: Boston will generally save a bad conductor by more or less ignoring them and playing the piece the way they always do, whereas the NY Phil will do exactly what they ask while scowling.


orchestras will tend to play works in exactly the style they are used to performing....guest conductors can make changes, major phrasing differences, articulations, note lengths, etc....but there are simply way too many details for a guest conductor to address in a brief concert series visit. orchestra musicians are like everybody else - creatures of habit. they will perpetuate those habits unless someone specifically tells them to alter them. the idea that a guest conductor can just come in and change everything is largely fictitious.
What guest conductors can do - is bring a high level of excitement, attention, alertness and liveliness to the concerts. 
the regular, steady music director can make changes on a much smaller, more detailed scale, after several seasons - many rehearsals, many concerts, personnel changes, etc.


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

Heck148 said:


> orchestras will tend to play works in exactly the style they are used to performing....guest conductors can make changes, major phrasing differences, articulations, note lengths, etc....*but there are simply way too many details for a guest conductor to address in a brief concert series visit.* orchestra musicians are like everybody else - creatures of habit. they will perpetuate those habits unless someone specifically tells them to alter them. the idea that a guest conductor can just come in and change everything is largely fictitious.
> What guest conductors can do - is bring a high level of excitement, attention, alertness and liveliness to the concerts.
> the regular, steady music director can make changes on a much smaller, more detailed scale, after several seasons - many rehearsals, many concerts, personnel changes, etc.


What you say makes sense, but I have seen considerable evidence to the contrary. For example, I heard the NY Phil rehearsing Mahler's Fourth a decade or so ago when the scheduled conductor took ill. Ivan Fischer was called in at the last minute to conduct the last rehearsal or two and the performance. He took control and conducted a highly nuanced performance with innumerable little details of tempo - ritards and accelerandos - all his own interpretation, and the orchestra followed him with miraculous precision. The best performance of the work I have ever heard. So, I suspect it depends on the the force of the conductor's vision and personality, the trust they instill, and how well they communicate their intentions from the podium.

Hey Heck, do you own a very old bassoon?


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## MarkW (Feb 16, 2015)

Why not? They know how to read music.


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## arnerich (Aug 19, 2016)

Hans von Bülow would make his orchestra not only memorize the score but stand during performances!


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## Vasks (Dec 9, 2013)

EdwardBast said:


> Boston will generally save a bad conductor by more or less ignoring them and playing the piece the way they always do


A long time ago, I once heard Dale Clevenger (Horn 1 of Chicago) in person say that if the players did not like the way the guest conductor wanted certain things done, that the players would give the conductor his/her wishes in rehearsal, but would do it "their own way" in the performance.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Why don't orchestras memorize the music?

Let me take a stab at this:

Because all the music is flawlessly printed in score which is placed right directly in front of them?


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## tdc (Jan 17, 2011)

arnerich said:


> Hans von Bülow would make his orchestra not only memorize the score but stand during performances!


Wow, I didn't know about the standing thing, I wonder what would be the point of that? I do know he conducted scores from memory and was the first to play all of Beethoven's piano sonatas from memory.

He also has one of the funnier musical quotes I've come across:

To a trombonist: "Your tone sounds like roast-beef gravy running through a sewer".


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## arnerich (Aug 19, 2016)

tdc said:


> Wow, I didn't know about the standing thing, I wonder what would be the point of that? I do know he conducted scores from memory and was the first to play all of Beethoven's piano sonatas from memory.
> 
> He also has one of the funnier musical quotes I've come across:
> 
> To a trombonist: "Your tone sounds like roast-beef gravy running through a sewer".


"A tenor is not a man, but a disease." - Hans von Bülow. Ha!


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

"There are three levels of intelligence: 'stupido', 'stupidissimo', and 'tenore'."

-- Arturo Toscanini


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