# Things that annoy you most in classical music



## tempo (Nov 8, 2012)

What tendencies, habits, trends, fashions or approaches really get up your nose in classical music?!

Here are mine, to get us started:

1) Conductors who believe that playing something _really _slowly gives it greater feeling, depth and gravitas. I'm looking at you Mr Bernstein, but you're by no means alone. I don't want the rhythm and flow of a piece to be disrupted by a performance that sounds like someone's got their finger on the tape to slow it down. I don't want the phrases to disconnect from one another.

2) Those damn annoying squeaks, squeals, pops and moments of feedback that seem to creep into EVERY damn recording, old or new, of EVERY work ever recorded at least somewhere.

3) Conductors and listeners who think that the composer's original intentions, instructions and wishes aren't relevant to how a work is performed. If we aren't truthfully playing the composer's work, what are we actually playing?

4) Recordings of operas with cuts all over the place. This spoils by enjoyment of Bohm's second Cosi Fan Tutte (Ludwig, EMI).

5) Recordings of Beethoven's 9th with repeats skipped left, right and centre in the scherzo.

6) Live recordings that are littered with coughs, sniffs, sneezes and splutters. When I actually want to listen to all that I'll head to the local GP and sit in the waiting room for an hour and five minutes.

7) Poorly played period brass that sounds like someone farting. If it can't be played in such a way as to sound good, DON'T USE PERIOD BRASS! Also applies to period woodwind.

8) Opera recorded/performed in English when it was written in Italian or German. Leave it alone.


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## DrMuller (May 26, 2014)

tempo said:


> What tendencies, habits, trends, fashions or approaches really get up your nose in classical music?!
> 
> Here are mine, to get us started:
> 
> ...


I couldn't agree more. Bernstein really knows how to ruin Brahms' third and fourth symphony; they are so slow in his hands.


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## tempo (Nov 8, 2012)

DrMuller said:


> I couldn't agree more. Bernstein really knows how to ruin Brahms' third and fourth symphony; they are so slow in his hands.


The surprising thing to me is how many listeners seem to actually prefer the recordings with really slow tempi.


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## Cosmos (Jun 28, 2013)

The only thing I dislike are the conservative public who believe that you should stick to what the score says and are not allowed to diverge too much. Sure you can put some of your own voice into it, but it can't bee too unique, because then you're "disrespecting" the music.

I disagree. I think that the more interpretations of a work, the merrier. We should encourage variation and deviation from the norm, rather than being strict and simply reciting what is written on the page. Classical should be freer, like jazz.


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

My annoying list is very small:

1. Pianists who are considered fabulous because of their wonderful pianism even though they display little insight into the music of specific composers.

2. Music critics who insist we all need to listen to today's classical music - screw them.

3. Performances/recordings of opera using the English language. I can handle the original language and believe that the sounds of a particular language do influence the specific music used.


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## Cosmos (Jun 28, 2013)

Bulldog said:


> 3. Performances/recordings of opera using the English language. I can handle the original language and believe that the sounds of a particular language do influence the specific music used.


Also this. In general, I don't like when the lyrics of a classical piece are in English, I find it distracting to the music. Though there are some works that I can tolerate the English (A Sea Symphony, for example)


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## mitchflorida (Apr 24, 2012)

No effort to connect with a younger audience.


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## Headphone Hermit (Jan 8, 2014)

People!

a) at home - talking, walking through the room, phoning me up, wanting to watch TV when I'm listening, 
b) at a concert - talking, coughing, unwrapping sweets, yawning, checking their mobile phones, moving about in their chairs
c) on TC - showing lack of respect for other people's enjoyment or interest or enthusiasm, or trying to impose their enthusiasm on me
d) in general - all of the above plus .....!


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## tempo (Nov 8, 2012)

Cosmos said:


> The only thing I dislike are the conservative public who believe that you should stick to what the score says and are not allowed to diverge too much. Sure you can put some of your own voice into it, but it can't bee too unique, because then you're "disrespecting" the music.
> 
> I disagree. I think that the more interpretations of a work, the merrier. We should encourage variation and deviation from the norm, rather than being strict and simply reciting what is written on the page. Classical should be freer, like jazz.


I completely disagree that a desire to respect the score is a sign of conservatism. It's actually the more radical modern recordings that seek to do this, not the 'classic classics' of the 60s and 70s, which often had relatively little respect for the score, yet it is THESE recordings that conservative types tend to go for.

The more conservative the listener, the more likely they are to hate the modern, HIP recordings - e.g. those that respect the score.


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## Wood (Feb 21, 2013)

Nothing annoys me in classical music, I'm happy to say.


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## tempo (Nov 8, 2012)

mitchflorida said:


> No effort to connect with a younger audience.


Would you be willing to expand on this? I'm never entirely sure what this really means when people say this.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Headphone Hermit said:


> People!
> 
> a) at home - talking, walking through the room, phoning me up, wanting to watch TV when I'm listening,
> b) at a concert - talking, coughing, unwrapping sweets, yawning, checking their mobile phones, moving about in their chairs
> ...


Yes. I was just peacefully playing a Mozart keyboard concerto and all of a sudden, a You Tube is blasting from the other room.

I feel your pain! Heck, I am experiencing your pain!!!


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## violadude (May 2, 2011)

Music educators that over-generalize to a degree as to give false information and stereotype about certain subjects.

A couple examples I've seen:

"The Baroque Era is about rules"

"Schoenberg wrote music that doesn't make harmonic sense"

I can't think of specific examples, but I can't stand popified, faux-opera music that some people mistake for classical music.

There's a tendency for very new classical music listeners to think that everything has to be EPIC AND AWESOME AND ADRENALINE PUMPING in order to be good music. That is kind of annoying, but I know they usually grow out of it.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Headphone Hermit said:


> People!
> 
> a) at home - talking, walking through the room, phoning me up, wanting to watch TV when I'm listening,
> b) at a concert - talking, coughing, unwrapping sweets, yawning, checking their mobile phones, moving about in their chairs
> ...


The earth would be much more inhabitable if we could just get rid of the people!


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

People who don't like it, and think you are weird or a show-off if you do. 

Times that by 5 for opera.


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## spradlig (Jul 25, 2012)

Mugging, wild gesturing and emotional displays by conductors. I don't want to watch _them_, I want to listen to the music, and watch the instrumentalists, since it often helps me know which instruments I'm hearing. Conductors come and go. Music is immortal.


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## shangoyal (Sep 22, 2013)

The fact that it is so difficult sometimes to sift through such a huge canon of compositions to find what you like.


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## Cosmos (Jun 28, 2013)

violadude said:


> There's a tendency for very new classical music listeners to think that everything has to be EPIC AND AWESOME AND ADRENALINE PUMPING in order to be good music. That is kind of annoying, but I know they usually grow out of it.


Lmfao this used to be _me_ *shutters*


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## arpeggio (Oct 4, 2012)

mamascarlatti said:


> People who don't like it, and think you are weird or a show-off if you do.
> 
> Times that by 5 for opera.


This is one of my big pet peeve as well.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

hpowders said:


> The earth would be much more inhabitable if we could just get rid of the people!


The wood duck has always known this. But you are wise. You may stay.


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## violadude (May 2, 2011)

Cosmos said:


> Lmfao this used to be _me_ *shutters*


Happens to the best of us. 

I was kind of like that to a degree as well at one point.


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## violadude (May 2, 2011)

hpowders said:


> The earth would be much more inhabitable if we could just get rid of the people!


Ya but what would happen if your music playing apparatus broke down and no one was around to fix it or make a new one or provide you with the materials to do either yourself.

And who would play and record the music in the first place?

or compose it?

Having other people around is pretty helpful, annoying as they can be.


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## Vaneyes (May 11, 2010)

That it isn't supported/subsidized more by individuals, corporations, and governments. Smart music is better than smart bombs.:tiphat:


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Woodduck said:


> The wood duck has always known this. But you are wise. You may stay.


Simon says, "you may stay!" Whoops, I forgot. He's in Australia.


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## GreenMamba (Oct 14, 2012)

The over-emphasis on the performers. Sure, I want to hear the piece played well, but it's not a sport. Some people are way too emotionally involved in debates over who is the best soprano or violinist. I think it's actually quite rare to find a performance that ruins a work, though I swear some people are hell bent on trying. Some of them might as well join a cult.

Also, when I was a noob, I hated the fact that reviews were almost always about the performers and not the composition itself. I understand how that happens, but it annoyed me.


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## Jeff W (Jan 20, 2014)

There are only three things that annoy me:

1) Not having enough time to listen to everything I would like to listen to

2) Not being able to afford all the recordings I would like to have

3) Not being able to afford to go to all the local concerts I would like to go to


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## Orfeo (Nov 14, 2013)

Too many recordings & performances of popular/standard repertoire works, and too few recordings and performances of obscured works that measure up and even surpass the former. For instances.

Tchaikovsky's Manfred > his Fourth Symphony.
Tchaikovsky's Piano Concerto no II > his Piano Concerto no. I.
Sibelius' Kullervo > his Fourth.
Glazunov's Second Symphony > Tchaikovsky's Second Symphony.
Massenet's "Esclarmonde" > Bizet's "Carmen."
Howard Hanson's First Symphony > his Second Symphony. 
-and so forth.

A matter of opinion of course. :tiphat:


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## superhorn (Mar 23, 2010)

Nasty music critics who write grossly unfair reviews of performers and make ad hominem attacks
on them instead of merely describing what they disliked about a particular performance , which is what they were supposed to do .
Too many critics , if they don't like a particular conductor, instrumentalist or singer , do nothing but take
gratuitous digs at the performers . 
Instead of just describing what they disliked about a performance , they belittle and dismiss the musicians .
Often, they will nit pick at minor, piddling flaws of execution in a live performance which are of no importance whatsoever, and
wildly exaggerate these tiny flaws to the point where you would think the performer, say a pianist or an opera singer,
played very poorly or even lacked adequate technique to play the music .
It's not uncommon for critics to make a federal case out a horn player's fluffing an individual note here or there ,
and even to make it sound as though it were the conductor's fault if they dislike that conductor's work .
This shows utter ignorance of thew horn ; a conductor really has no control over the player's accuracy .
I can say this as a veteran of who knows how many orchestra concerts as a horn player . The horn is a very
treacherous instrument to play , and even the greatest horn players sometimes miss notes .
A critic may take one little horn crack out of context , exaggerate and make it sound as though the horn section
was constantly fluffing throughout the concert . I've read reviews like this . 
Critics guilty of this should take a lesson or two on the horn to learn how difficult it is to play !
The late Alan Rich , who was once music critic of New York magazine (not to be confused with the New Yorker) and then moved to L.A,,
had a particular animus to Zubin Mehta , hated his conducting , and was constantly savaging Mehta in his reviews .
He accused Mehta of not being committed to contemporary music despite the fact that he has always
been a stauch champion of challenging new orchestral works by avant-garde composers ; a bald faced lie !
He accused Mehta of ruining the New York Philharmonic and making it play atrociously ; he never
aclknowledged the fact that Mehta had built the once minor league Los Angeles Philharmonic into 
one of the world's finest orchestras.
When the late Carlo Maria Giulini took the L.A.Phil. from Mehta in 1978 , Rich, who idolized Giulini , had
the gall , right after he had taken over, that Giulini had instantly transformed the orchestra into a great one !
Giulini never did anything for new music in Los Angeles or anywhere else, or hardly anything .
Yet Rich was a total hypocrite and NEVER criticized Giulini for his lack of commitment to new music,
while constantly accusing Mehta of this . He even once accused Mehta of pandering to audiences with
"easy listening "! This , from a master of the music of Schoenberg, Webern, Messiaen, and so many other
avant-garde composers . His reviews
left me with a bad taste in my mouth .
What Rich wrote about Mehta was not music criticiam - it was pure character assassination !
Other music critics were extremely cruel to Mehta , such as Peter G, Davis, who became the music
critic of New York magazine after Rich moved to cover classical music in L.A.
Disgusting ! I can recall many,many nasty revoews of great conductors and other classical musicians
by music critics , but these are some of the most egregious .


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## Orfeo (Nov 14, 2013)

tempo said:


> What tendencies, habits, trends, fashions or approaches really get up your nose in classical music?!
> 
> Here are mine, to get us started:
> 
> ...


In many ways, I agree (esp. in no. four). But in regards to your first annoyance, if you will, one can argue that a slow tempo adds to the profundity of a performance (where details, even inner ones, are more noticeable, they have more of a voice). Bernstein's DG recording of Sibelius' Second Symphony or his Philips recording of Wagner's "Tristan und Isode" comes to mind. Celibidache over did Bruckner in my humble opinion (now that's extreme). But a slow tempo approach is fine as long as things manage to move along and not be anemic.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

What annoys me the most is when I buy a CD of a live performance and the audience didn't have their pneumonia shots before sitting down.


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## senza sordino (Oct 20, 2013)

It annoys me that not many people like classical music. It's fantastic music, I want to share it with more people. 

It annoys me that I don't have enough time to listen to all the music.

It annoys me that I can't listen to my music with more volume, since I live in a wooden apartment building. And right now the windows are open. This goes with my first point.


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## Vaneyes (May 11, 2010)

superhorn, I saw/heard LAPO/Mehta--Wagner: Rienzi Overture, Schoenberg: Orchestral Variations,opus 31, Brahms: Symphony No. 1. It was a magical concert during an exciting period for this collaboration, which energized the entire classical world. 

Mehta was perfect for LA at that time. He got drunk on the glitz, but the musical substance never wavered. IMO he never was able to match that moment.


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## Vaneyes (May 11, 2010)

senza sordino said:


> It annoys me that not many people like classical music. It's fantastic music, I want to share it with more people.
> 
> It annoys me that I don't have enough time to listen to all the music.
> 
> It annoys me that I can't listen to my music with more volume, since I live in a wooden apartment building. And right now the windows are open. This goes with my first point.


Listen loud...and empty your chamber pot into the street. "I'm not going to take this anymore!"


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## Vaneyes (May 11, 2010)

GreenMamba said:


> The over-emphasis on the performers. Sure, I want to hear the piece played well, but it's not a sport. Some people are way too emotionally involved in debates over who is the best soprano or violinist. I think it's actually *quite rare* to find a performance that ruins a work, though I swear some people are hell bent on trying. Some of them might as well join a cult.
> 
> Also, when I was a noob, *I hated the fact that reviews were almost always about the performers and not the composition itself. *I understand how that happens, but it annoyed me.


I would amend "quite rare".

So many innocuous reviews, I don't know where to start. Usually there is a reviewer agenda that prohibits saying anything bad. Sorry, superhorn. But also saying anything informing, like, How does it compare to the oft-recommended? Or, How's the recorded sound quality?


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## OldFashionedGirl (Jul 21, 2013)

I detest that in a concerto the solist make weird gestures. I understand that usually the solist is very excited, but I don't see the need to do gestures like having an orgarsm. Is annoying and distracting (This is especially dedicated to Yo-Yo Ma).
I hate that some musicians thinks they are super duper because they play super fast. My neighbor for example.
I hate that many people thinks that classical music is bourgeois music, and if you said you like classical music that automatically make you a pretentious and a snob, and yeah! a very rich person too!!!


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## senza sordino (Oct 20, 2013)

Vaneyes said:


> Listen loud...and empty your chamber pot into the street. "I'm not going to take this anymore!"


Hey, I might live in Canada, but we have had our flush toilets a few years ago now. :lol:


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## arpeggio (Oct 4, 2012)

superhorn said:


> Nasty music critics who write grossly unfair reviews of performers and make ad hominem attacks
> on them instead of merely describing what they disliked about a particular performance , which is what they were supposed to do .
> Too many critics , if they don't like a particular conductor, instrumentalist or singer , do nothing but take
> gratuitous digs at the performers .
> ...


Right on. I love horn players. We have a great horn section if the City of Fairfax Band and the bassoons have the great pleasure of sitting in front of them.


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## Weston (Jul 11, 2008)

1. Some of the fussy stuffy traditions. You go to a concert or watch a DVD of a concert and you are treated to a round of applause as the orchestra, all dressed like penguins, saunter on to the stage, then about a minute of chair scraping and paper rustling before a good 30 seconds of ubiquitous orchestral tune up sound. Then it gets quiet and the audience applauds again as the soloists enter. A bit of bowing, more chair scraping and paper score rustling. Then another round of applause as The Conductor enters and takes a bow or nods as he or she sees fit. More paper rustling, this time accompanied by some throat clearing. Then the conductor raises the wand - - and holds it.

By this time I'm about ready to make an improbably loud rude noise. If you are watching a DVD or YouTube, you may get several seconds of a caption informing you of what you are about hear (soon, please dear God before we die of old age) complete with key signatures and tempo indications. Finally just before the conductor's arm falls off from the strain, the music may begin.

These folks should watch a big name 70s or 80s rock act once in while. They knew how to start a show.

2. I don't want to hear the quartet's nose hairs whistling. Do you mind? Either move the mic back a bit or take some Benadryl before recording.

3. This one is aimed at Dvorak specifically. Please put the pen down and step away from the triangle staff.

4. And to Beethoven: Maestro, please just end the thing. We know it's ending. You don't have to wake us up. Now would be a good time for the final cadence. Okay, now it's way past time. Oh, FFS! Put us out of our misery! "V - V -- V --- V ---- V ------- " Look, do I have time to run out for a bite, or is this going to resolve soon? V(with an inversion) V --- V(with an inversion) --- V ----- " Maybe I could check my email . . . "V ----- V(with an inversion) ---- V(with an inversion) ---- V(with an inversion) -------" You know, I was a young man when this coda began. "V(with an inversion) ---- V(with an inversion) ------- *I*"


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## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

> hpowders: The earth would be much more inhabitable if we could just get rid of the people!
> 
> Woodduck: The wood duck has always known this. But you are wise. You may stay.


"Hell is other people?"--- psssssssssssssssst!

God is the greatest comedic genius of all _time_. Have you ever seen a platypus or a Congressman?

You two are such ingrates.

Open your eyes.

_Si monumentum requiris, circumspice._

You're at a banquet and you're acting like you're starving.

Ha. Ha. Ha. Ha. Ha. Ha.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

OldFashionedGirl said:


> I detest that in a concerto the solist make weird gestures. I understand that usually the solist is very excited, but I don't see the need to do gestures like having an orgarsm. Is annoying and distracting (This is especially dedicated to Yo-Yo Ma).
> I hate that some musicians thinks they are super duper because they play super fast. My neighbor for example.
> I hate that many people thinks that classical music is bourgeois music, and if you said you like classical music that automatically make you a pretentious and a snob, and yeah! a very rich person too!!!


The great violinist Jascha Heifetz was giving a lesson, recorded for television; the piece was the third movement of the Tchaikovsky violin concerto. The student was showing off, playing it very fast. Heifetz stopped him and played it TWICE AS FAST, humiliating the student back to what good musicianship is all about and it's not about speed! I'm sure that kid never forgot the lesson.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Marschallin Blair said:


> "Hell is other people?"--- psssssssssssssssst!
> 
> God is the greatest comedic genius of all _time_.
> 
> ...


True, but I want things MY WAY!! Is that selfish? Of course not!!


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## Vaneyes (May 11, 2010)

OldFashionedGirl said:


> I detest that in a concerto the solist make weird gestures. I understand that usually the solist is very excited, but I don't see the need to do gestures like having an orgarsm. Is annoying and distracting (This is especially dedicated to Yo-Yo Ma).
> I hate that some musicians thinks they are super duper because they play super fast. My neighbor for example.
> I hate that many people thinks that classical music is bourgeois music, and if you said you like classical music that automatically make you a pretentious and a snob, and yeah! a very rich person too!!!


I want a super duper orgarsm.


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## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

hpowders said:


> True, but I want things MY WAY!! Is that selfish? Of course not!!


What could be more Godlike?: "Thou shalt have no gods or goddesses before Me."

Absolutely.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Vaneyes said:


> I want a super duper orgarsm.


The way you are addressing that golf ball, just be glad you are still breathing. :tiphat:


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## Vaneyes (May 11, 2010)

Weston said:


> ....
> 2. I don't want to hear the quartet's nose hairs whistling....


I'm reserving judgment.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Marschallin Blair said:


> What could be more Godlike?: "Thou shalt have no gods or goddesses before Me."
> 
> Absolutely.


I'm spoiled. What can I tell you. I was the Prince of Brooklyn.


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## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

hpowders said:


> I'm spoiled. What can I tell you. I was the Prince of Brooklyn.


No one ever went broke 'not' saving attitude-- well done.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Marschallin Blair said:


> No one ever went broke 'saving' attitude-- well done.


I was a pampered kid and it worked fine as long as I didn't go outside the house.:lol:


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Some of Leonard Bernstein's tempo choices in the Haydn London Symphonies annoy me. Second movement andantes become adagios. Fourth movement allegros become prestissimos.

His Pastorale Symphony/VPO annoys me for the same reason. Tempos are distortedly too slow. Beethoven would have smacked him!


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## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

> hpowders: I was a pampered kid and it worked fine as long as I didn't go outside the house.


_"Mom, just arrived on Main Street. Stop. Street is full of people. Stop. Please advise. Stop."_


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## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

hpowders said:


> Some of Leonard Bernstein's tempo choices in the Haydn London Symphonies annoy me. Second movement andantes become adagios. Fourth movement allegros become prestissimos.
> 
> His Pastorale Symphony/VPO annoys me for the same reason. Tempos are distortedly too slow. Beethoven would have smacked him!


Inadvertence triumphs over intent. He was a manic depressive. Give him a break.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

What annoys me is when conductors blindly take repeats without thinking about the negative effect this sometimes has.

For example, the fourth movement of the Beethoven Fifth Symphony starts after the miraculous transition from the third movement with that famous, glorious fanfare. Taking the repeat, one hears the fanfare three times; the effect of the second fanfare is to emaciate the anticipated glorious effect of the final fanfare just before the end of the symphony.
Too much of a good thing.

So if any of you conductors are reading this, please!! Omit the repeat in the fourth movement.
Think it through!!


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Marschallin Blair said:


> Inadvertence triumphs over intent. He was a manic depressive. Give him a break.


I gave him a break. He's renting my avatar space.


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## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

hpowders said:


> The way you are addressing that golf ball, just be glad you are still breathing. :tiphat:


"Heeeeeeeeellooooooooo ball!" Ha. Ha. Ha. Ha. Ha. --- senescence.


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## Weston (Jul 11, 2008)

hpowders said:


> So if any of you conductors are reading this, please!! Omit the repeat in the fourth movement.
> Think it through!!


But do repeat all the way back to the beginning in the first movement in the Pathetique sonata a la Andras Schiff and don't just think of the beginning as a disposable introduction. It's a totally different and riveting effect from the way it's normally played.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Repeats should not be taken mindlessly because doing so is supposed to be "authentic".

What is the point of taking all the repeats in Schubert's Ninth Symphony, making a 45 minute work last about an hour?


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## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

hpowders said:


> I gave him a break. He's renting my avatar space.


Its a better tax write-off than that one he had with the cattle.


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## BaronScarpia (Apr 2, 2014)

There are two fundamental aspects of classical music I dislike:

1. Performers whose performances have no great artistic value, and attempt to make up for this by employing ridiculous hand gestures, bodily movement and facial expressions.

2. The fact that conductors are often not, first and foremost, conductors. Daniel Barenboim is a pianist, Plácido Domingo is a tenor; in previous generations, the great conductors such as Toscanini, Serafin, Karajan, Furtwängler, and more recently Claudio Abbado and Sir Colin Davis, were all actually CONDUCTORS! The orchestra was their instrument. You cannot, in my opinion, rely on the reputation you have built up in one profession when engaged in another.


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## Richannes Wrahms (Jan 6, 2014)

Other composers' music conducted to sound like Beethoven.


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## Couac Addict (Oct 16, 2013)

spradlig said:


> Mugging, wild gesturing and emotional displays by conductors.


One of my frequent guest conductors. The real skill is playing without laughing.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Marschallin Blair said:


> "Hell is other people?"--- psssssssssssssssst!
> 
> God is the greatest comedic genius of all _time_. Have you ever seen a platypus or a Congressman?
> 
> ...


A People Person!

Well, you may stay too. But it's starting to feel crowded here.


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## BRHiler (May 3, 2014)

Picardy thirds


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## arpeggio (Oct 4, 2012)

*That the?????*

^^^

I noticed that one of the cellist occasionally look-up to make sure he did not fall off the podium :lol:


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## techniquest (Aug 3, 2012)

> I want a super duper orgarsm.


What's an 'orgarsm'?

By the way, I'm also interested in finding out _how_ to connect with a younger audience, as a poster on page one has requested.

A couple of things that annoy me are:
1. Poorly recorded or absent tam-tam in pieces where it ought to be very obvious.
2. Conductors grunts, whines and moans during a work.
3. The faces Sir Simon Rattle makes (sorry - but it's always got me)
4. The 'Dr Who' Prom; the 'CBeebies' Prom, the 'Sport' Prom...etc, etc. I can't stand this dumbing down of such an otherwise superb festival.
5. People who are sniffy about Tchaikovsky's '1812 Overture' and look down their noses at those who like it.


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## BurningDesire (Jul 15, 2012)

hpowders said:


> Repeats should not be taken mindlessly because doing so is supposed to be "authentic".
> 
> What is the point of taking all the repeats in Schubert's Ninth Symphony, making a 45 minute work last about an hour?


Its not mindless. The composer wrote the repeats in there for a reason. Its like saying "Well Stravinsky, you wrote this bassoon line pretty unreasonably high, I'm just going to play that down an octave. that works better right?"


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## stevens (Jun 23, 2014)

18 years old asberger type of boys who absolutely must play Chopin Revolutionary Étude, (and sometimes Lizst La Campanella, Rachmaninoff Prelude in C-sharp minor)
Its sounds soo awfull, dull, untight, clumpsy, nasty, it gives me headache, tinnitus


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## stevens (Jun 23, 2014)

Good symphonic orchestras cooperating whith pop-stars, rappers ..


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## techniquest (Aug 3, 2012)

> 18 years old asberger type of boys who absolutely must play.....


Do you have someone in particular in mind? If not, then what's an 'Asperger-type' boy?


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## Ingélou (Feb 10, 2013)

I dislike 'sneerers' who imply that people who like the more popular pieces or composers are hicks; or who put down whole genres or types of music; to be found in reviews, on the media, or even (tell it not in Gath) on TalkClassical posts. 

I find it hard to surmount my Northern roots and appreciate songs sung in the strangled posh accents of the past; today's more neutral 'received pronunciation' is what I prefer.


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## Weston (Jul 11, 2008)

Noisy performances in modern day recordings. I'm shopping in Amazon digital enjoying my morning coffee, listening to the samples in headphones to compare, and I seem to hear as much air conditioning rumble as music. Sometimes I hear a lot of shuffling or even the pages of the score turning. There should be a way to eliminate this. I don't remember older recordings sounding this way. It could be our microphones work too well.


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## mitchflorida (Apr 24, 2012)

Must every symphony performance look like every other symphony performance?

B O R I N G


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## Headphone Hermit (Jan 8, 2014)

techniquest said:


> What's an 'orgarsm'?


a posh one!


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## Headphone Hermit (Jan 8, 2014)

mitchflorida said:


> Must every symphony performance look like every other symphony performance?
> 
> B O R I N G


perhaps they should wear fancy dress - when playing Bach, they all wear curly wigs, red ones for Vivaldi, thick glases for Shostakovich etc?


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## CypressWillow (Apr 2, 2013)

Finally! An artist says in print what I've thought privately for decades: *I do NOT want to see yer armpits when you play/conduct!!!
*
http://www.jessicaduchen.co.uk/pdfs/indie_2010/mitsuku_uchida2_oct01.pdf


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Headphone Hermit said:


> perhaps they should wear fancy dress - when playing Bach, they all wear curly wigs, red ones for Vivaldi, thick glases for Shostakovich etc?


All of a sudden the state of Florida feels like it is becoming very, very small, if you get my drift.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Jeff W said:


> There are only three things that annoy me:
> 
> 1) Not having enough time to listen to everything I would like to listen to
> 
> ...


What about:

4) Not being able to rent out my signature space, even though the rate is very reasonable.


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## violadude (May 2, 2011)

GreenMamba said:


> The over-emphasis on the performers. Sure, I want to hear the piece played well, but it's not a sport. Some people are way too emotionally involved in debates over who is the best soprano or violinist. I think it's actually quite rare to find a performance that ruins a work, though I swear some people are hell bent on trying. Some of them might as well join a cult.
> 
> Also, when I was a noob, I hated the fact that reviews were almost always about the performers and not the composition itself. I understand how that happens, but it annoyed me.


I agree with you here. I want reviews of the actual music too. Maybe in CM culture it's just too pretentious to critique the works of guys like Beethoven.


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## mitchflorida (Apr 24, 2012)

Headphone Hermit said:


> perhaps they should wear fancy dress - when playing Bach, they all wear curly wigs, red ones for Vivaldi, thick glases for Shostakovich etc?


Anything would be for the better. Otherwise I will just listen on a CD or digital. Live performance should be entertaining. At least let the women wear something interesting.


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## Vaneyes (May 11, 2010)

Couac Addict said:


> One of my frequent guest conductors. The real skill is playing without laughing.


I thought I recognized it. Sword-fight choreography from The Adventures of Robin Hood (1938).:tiphat:


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## violadude (May 2, 2011)

Weston said:


> 1. Some of the fussy stuffy traditions. You go to a concert or watch a DVD of a concert and you are treated to a round of applause as the orchestra, all dressed like penguins, saunter on to the stage, then about a minute of chair scraping and paper rustling before a good 30 seconds of ubiquitous orchestral tune up sound. Then it gets quiet and the audience applauds again as the soloists enter. A bit of bowing, more chair scraping and paper score rustling. Then another round of applause as The Conductor enters and takes a bow or nods as he or she sees fit. More paper rustling, this time accompanied by some throat clearing. Then the conductor raises the wand - - and holds it.
> 
> By this time I'm about ready to make an improbably loud rude noise. If you are watching a DVD or YouTube, you may get several seconds of a caption informing you of what you are about hear (soon, please dear God before we die of old age) complete with key signatures and tempo indications. Finally just before the conductor's arm falls off from the strain, the music may begin.


As someone who spent about 7 or 8 years in my cities youth symphony, I must say that all the pre-concert fussing you are talking about is like a pleasant whiff of nostalgia. It's equivalent to a middle aged former football player, opining for the glory days in college the moment he ran out on the field and everyone was cheering for hm.

Maybe that's why people keep doing it.


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## arpeggio (Oct 4, 2012)

*Fun*



hpowders said:


> Repeats should not be taken mindlessly because doing so is supposed to be "authentic".
> 
> What is the point of taking all the repeats in Schubert's Ninth Symphony, making a 45 minute work last about an hour?


It's more fun to play with the repeats.


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## arpeggio (Oct 4, 2012)

*Morton Gould & 1812*



techniquest said:


> 5. People who are sniffy about Tchaikovsky's '1812 Overture' and look down their noses at those who like it.


Favorite _1812_ story I posted in another thread: http://www.talkclassical.com/24513-tchaikovsky-march-slave-silly.html#post435305


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

BRHiler said:


> Picardy thirds


Good God! I _love_ Picardy thirds! 

What gets me is a composer ending on a major triad when we've heard nothing but fourths, seconds, tritones, and open fifths since the piece began (are you listening, Paul Hindemith?).


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## arpeggio (Oct 4, 2012)

Woodduck said:


> Good God! I _love_ Picardy thirds!
> 
> What gets me is a composer ending on a major triad when we've heard nothing but fourths, seconds, tritones, and open fifths since the piece began (are you listening, Paul Hindemith?).


Ending of _War Requiem_.


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## Weston (Jul 11, 2008)

Picardy thirds made a possible a musical renaissance.


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## techniquest (Aug 3, 2012)

Headphone Hermit said:


> a posh one!


Ah, that'll be why I've never heard of it


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## brotagonist (Jul 11, 2013)

1. Coughing and noise during recording and performance
2. Snobbery about the ultimate performance of a piece (which is generally said to be the one the 'snob' heard first or loves the most)
3. The belief that music of the Twentieth Century and onward is generally difficult crap and not of the same calibre as earlier music
4. That more people don't love classical music and I cannot, hence, share my appreciation of it (thanks, senza sordino)


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## GreenMamba (Oct 14, 2012)

BaronScarpia said:


> 2. The fact that conductors are often not, first and foremost, conductors. Daniel Barenboim is a pianist, Plácido Domingo is a tenor; in previous generations, the great conductors such as Toscanini, Serafin, Karajan, Furtwängler, and more recently Claudio Abbado and Sir Colin Davis, were all actually CONDUCTORS! The orchestra was their instrument. You cannot, in my opinion, rely on the reputation you have built up in one profession when engaged in another.


Back in the day, conductors were, first and foremost, composers. Furtwangler was a composer. I don't know if a composer need only be a composer.


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## superhorn (Mar 23, 2010)

Baron Scarpia , there is nothing wrong with having started out as a pianist , violinist etc, and
then becoming a conductor . Barenboim was originally a pianist , be he is as genuine a conductor
as any of the most famous, like his conducting or not .
This is nothing new ; in the 19th century , Hans von Bulow began as a piano virtuoso, but is best remembered today
as a champion of Wagner and who conducted the historic premieres of both Tristan & Die Meistersinger in Munich
in the 1860s .
Pablo Casals , Alfred Cortot , Rachmaninov , Joseph Joachum, and many other famous instrumentalists were
active as conductors, and nobody complained . Rostropovich , while perhaps not the most skillfull conductor 
technically , gave some unforgettable performances as a conductor .


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## Guest (Jul 4, 2014)

Lack of personality in performances. Today's younger artists are obsessed with technical perfection at the cost of expression. With artists such as Horowitz, Gould, Richter, Heifetz, Oistrakh, Rostropovich, etc., it's easy to tell who it is by hearing just a few notes. Good luck trying that with the current generation.


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

BaronScarpia said:


> There are two fundamental aspects of classical music I dislike:
> 
> 1. Performers whose performances have no great artistic value, and attempt to make up for this by employing ridiculous hand gestures, bodily movement and facial expressions.
> 
> 2. The fact that conductors are often not, first and foremost, conductors. Daniel Barenboim is a pianist, Plácido Domingo is a tenor; in previous generations, the great conductors such as Toscanini, Serafin, Karajan, Furtwängler, and more recently Claudio Abbado and Sir Colin Davis, were all actually CONDUCTORS! The orchestra was their instrument. You cannot, in my opinion, rely on the reputation you have built up in one profession when engaged in another.


I don't have any problem with musical soloists branching out into conducting. Many folks are capable of excellence in more than one endeavor.


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## BurningDesire (Jul 15, 2012)

Those goddamn trill cadences from the classical period. Every time I hear a perfect cadence with that obnoxious use of a trill... I die a little inside.


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## Novelette (Dec 12, 2012)

BurningDesire said:


> Those goddamn trill cadences from the classical period. Every time I hear a perfect cadence with that obnoxious use of a trill... I die a little inside.


... Never mind, I didn't see where you said perfect cadence.

What if it concludes a great cadenza? The use may be a little trite, I'll admit, but sometimes it just works.


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## BurningDesire (Jul 15, 2012)

Kontrapunctus said:


> Lack of personality in performances. Today's younger artists are obsessed with technical perfection at the cost of expression. With artists such as Horowitz, Gould, Richter, Heifetz, Oistrakh, Rostropovich, etc., it's easy to tell who it is by hearing just a few notes. Good luck trying that with the current generation.


Maurizio Pollini I find to be a beautiful medium, with incredible technical prowess, but still with alot of personality and expression. And he's amazingly versatile, able to provide the same beautiful treatment to Chopin and Stravinsky and Stockhausen.


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## BurningDesire (Jul 15, 2012)

Novelette said:


> Even if it concludes a great cadenza?
> 
> Perhaps a little trite, I'll admit.


Thats the worst kind XD cause its inevitable in that period. Even Haydn, who I adore, indulges in that cliche. Its like the classical composers version of "nah nah nahnah naaahh"


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## Novelette (Dec 12, 2012)

BurningDesire said:


> Thats the worst kind XD cause its inevitable in that period. Even Haydn, who I adore, indulges in that cliche. *Its like the classical composers version of "nah nah nahnah naaahh"*


I'll never be able to disassociate trill cadences from that sentence.


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## BurningDesire (Jul 15, 2012)

I think it wouldn't bug me quite so much if they would use it differently from time to time, and I believe Haydn would on occasion (Mozart probably did too, I'm not an expert on all of his output) use it differently, instead of ending the trill on the tonic, ending it on the third above or something, or at least have it lead us elsewhere. But its really just one tiny part for me of a larger problem of the homogeny of that period. There is so little individuality or experimentation. Its like... you listen to a Chopin Nocturne, and the opening phrase contains more excitement and intrigue and beauty than many entire pieces by composers like Mozart. A single sonority from a Debussy or Stravinsky piece has more intrigue than many entire classical period pieces, because form and rules were applied so strictly. 

That isn't to say I don't like the Classical Period. I haven't heard a Haydn piece I don't like, and I like many of Mozart's later works, and his concerti. I just feel like the aesthetic is limiting to the point of being a detriment to the music being made, and I think composers like Beethoven and Schubert, who were too full of passion to be contained by that sound world, pushing the western musical world into Romanticism is one of the greatest advances in the art of music.


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## bigshot (Nov 22, 2011)

That and the beginning of Jazz


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## trazom (Apr 13, 2009)

The fans/fanatics, especially the ones that try to politely talk down to you for not listening to music with enough counterpoint.


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## 38157 (Jul 4, 2014)

BurningDesire said:


> Those goddamn trill cadences from the classical period. Every time I hear a perfect cadence with that obnoxious use of a trill... I die a little inside.


My first thought upon seeing the thread title was "V-I". Like any musical device, used imaginatively and surprisingly, there's nothing wrong with it, but I can't help but feel remorseful that I haven't heard "Ic iib V7 I" for the last time in my life.


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## Cheyenne (Aug 6, 2012)

It annoys me when the first recording of a work I listen to is a rather radical one -- that is, when I get used to a certain radical style of performing a work which thereafter ruins other ways of performing it for me. I cannot hear Beecham's Schubert 3 recording -- I simply can't. It feels sooooo slow after I got used to Carlos Kleiber's recordings -- and yet Kleiber's tempi are way too fast!


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## Janspe (Nov 10, 2012)

The omnipresent claim that all of today's young artists only pursue technical perfection with the cost of personal musicianship, while the older - and therefore the better, of course - generation of performers was comprised of nothing but these demigod giants who always knew the right way to do things.

I'm so very, _very_ tired of hearing that old rant again. I admire countless performers from the "golden age" of classical music immensely, but I also know so many interesting young artists active today that hearing someone making the above-mentioned claim makes me furious on their behalf.

Maybe I'm not intelligent enough to realize that today's musical world is filled with technical robots. Be that as it may, I'm constantly discovering (for me) new interpretations, both old and new. And that's the way I like it.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Janspe said:


> The omnipresent claim that all of today's young artists only pursue technical perfection with the cost of personal musicianship...


Yes, the older generation of performers ripped the music, still bloody and quivering, from the depths of their souls. The newer performers simply spin the notes with their steriodally-enhanced techniques, and can often be seen texting as they perform. :lol:


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## Machiavel (Apr 12, 2010)

The Beethoven and Wagner worshippers. I guess I will never understand why someone after 20-30 years of listening is still talking and listening weekly to Beethoven ninth. Poor them they miss so much.


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## Vesteralen (Jul 14, 2011)

That some of the most ecstatic, transcendent moments in my musical experience will never be relived again. Age has a way of dulling some of the emotions. So many of the pieces I love, I still love in memory, but without the ability to fully sense what it was I loved about them.


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## senza sordino (Oct 20, 2013)

One thing that annoys the conductor of my orchestra is that some musicians can play all the notes, but have little musicality, little sense of the musical phrase. What annoys me is that I think I do have that sense of musical phrase and musicality but I can't play all the notes.


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## Mesenkomaha (Jun 24, 2014)

I'm not sure if annoy is the right word but I'm troubled by the fact that no one I know cares of classical music. Furthermore, when I go to the symphony, you could double my age and I'd still be the youngest person by far there. I think it would be great if more young people would listen. I dislike when I tell people that I listen to classical music and they respond "That is very relaxing music". I hear that all the time...


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## ArtMusic (Jan 5, 2013)

"Classical music" being quite loosely defined, and almost anything that is composed today is lumped into the term "classical music." Just call the later - contemporary art music or something along those words.


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## Ingélou (Feb 10, 2013)

Is it safe to come out yet? I *love* baroque trills!

What I don't like are those *big endings* that keep repeating themselves, a la Dudley Moore parody of Beethoven. 




So portentous!


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## violadude (May 2, 2011)

Ingélou said:


> Is it safe to come out yet? I *love* baroque trills!
> 
> What I don't like are those *big endings* that keep repeating themselves, a la Dudley Moore parody of Beethoven.
> 
> ...


I like trills too. I don't really understand people's problem with them.

The ending that won't end does sometimes annoy me, but I try to remember that when Beethoven did it, it was probably pretty suspenseful at the time. Composers after Beethoven took it way overboard though if my knowledge serves me correctly.


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## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

mitchflorida said:


> No effort to connect with a younger audience.


Despite what some think of his conducting, at least Leonard Bernstein couldn't be accused of that.


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## Badinerie (May 3, 2008)

1.The Consumptives Chorus at live performances. If they feel like expiring they should do so somewhere else.

2. Excessive Encores. I'm a musician too in my own small way I dont want my hands to swell twice the size due to feeling obliged to get the applause into the Guinness Book of Records.

3.Promotional photos and album covers featuring what my late father would describe as "Dolly Birds" OK...the young woman may have the kind of looks that would make the Arch Bishop of Canterbury kick holes in his stained glass windows but guys....we're above that kind of things aren't we?...Guys??

4.Again, the attitude that if you like classic and opera that you think your pretentious or posh or otherwise "above yourself" Still Who cares what the Oiks think Chaps eh what?

5.People who think that "Their" Composer/artist/whatever are the bees knees and every one else are misguided dilettantes if they dont agree...we aaalllll know someone like this.

That'll do...for now. I need a cup of tea to wash the taste of chagrin from my mouth.


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## violadude (May 2, 2011)

I think it's annoying when people criticize music for not being what they want it to be. In my opinion, music should be critiqued within the parameters of the style that it's written in. For example, I think it's fine to criticize a Mozart or Haydn piece for having an awkward sounding or rushed transition back to the recapitulation, but it's just silly to criticize them for not experimenting with micro-tones enough. 

Same reason I think it's silly to criticize so called "Avant-Garde" music for lack of pretty melodies. Or, as I mentioned in an earlier post, criticizing Schoenberg for not making "harmonic sense" (by those standards, Renaissance music doesn't make "harmonic sense" either).


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## dgee (Sep 26, 2013)

I'm annoyed by the ongoing denigration of musicologists/academics (and to some extent critics - although this is a less consistent group and there are many hateful dungers alongside excellent critics). 

People who live with music as their passion and livelihood deserve respect for their commitment, the knowledge they record and share and their insights. Did they say something bad about music you like? Did they use an academic framework that confuses and frightens you? Grow a pair and move on. And realise how much of what you know about music is due to musicologists and critics (even the baddies) parsing this enormous, bewildering world for you


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## violadude (May 2, 2011)

dgee said:


> I'm annoyed by the ongoing denigration of musicologists/academics (and to some extent critics - although this is a less consistent group and there are many hateful dungers alongside excellent critics).
> 
> People who live with music as their passion and livelihood deserve respect for their commitment, the knowledge they record and share and their insights. Did they say something bad about music you like? Did they use an academic framework that confuses and frightens you? Grow a pair and move on. And realise how much of what you know about music is due to musicologists and critics (even the baddies) parsing this enormous, bewildering world for you


Amen! I think this applies to any field of work where the experts are panned for an imagined sense of snobbery or elitism simply for sharing what they know (certain scientific fields immediately come to mind).


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## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

The word "atonal", and those who use it with the impression that it means the same thing to them as it does to others who use it (without, of course, any of them being able to define it with any real consistency). Really, let's throw this word away. It means absolutely nothing, and adds nothing to our understanding of any music, past or future.


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## Novelette (Dec 12, 2012)

ArtMusic said:


> "Classical music" being quite loosely defined, and almost anything that is composed today is lumped into the term "classical music." Just call the later - contemporary art music or something along those words.


This begs the question, then, _What is Classical Music?_

The idea of excluding something from a categorical term simply because someone dislikes it, does not register with me.

A better idea might be to dispense with the term "Classical Music" altogether, and be even more specific. It's hard to use a generality that, in your strictest sense, seems meant to characterize music by such different composers as Wagenseil and Wagner; Schumann and Praetorius; Buxtehude and Tchaikovsky. Therefore it seems that further splits are needed.

Yet even still within the same era, the different regional or national styles can be greatly different. Haydn was composing his Baryton Trios at the same time Rameau was composing his late pastorals. They are so different that it's difficult not to suppress the diversity in the generality.

I get the impression that seeking to detach contemporary classical music from the broader spectrum is tantamount to declaring it wrongly arrogated to the level of music one presumably likes. The distinction is arbitrary, especially given the sheer vastness and diversity of the repertoire that one would presumably _include_.

In short, if you exclude what you seek to exclude, you are still left with a loosely defined term.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

> 6) Live recordings that are littered with coughs, sniffs, sneezes and splutters. When I actually want to listen to all that I'll head to the local GP and sit in the waiting room for an hour and five minutes.


Oddly, I have a live Messiah performance that has a few coughs and other typical background noises in it and love it even more for that reason. I do also have studio performances of Messiah, but the live one is special and those extra noises make it very apparent that it is a live performance.


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## revdrdave (Jan 8, 2014)

dholling said:


> In many ways, I agree (esp. in no. four). But in regards to your first annoyance, if you will, one can argue that a slow tempo adds to the profundity of a performance (where details, even inner ones, are more noticeable, they have more of a voice). Bernstein's DG recording of Sibelius' Second Symphony or his Philips recording of Wagner's "Tristan und Isode" comes to mind. Celibidache over did Bruckner in my humble opinion (now that's extreme). But a slow tempo approach is fine as long as things manage to move along and not be anemic.


Yes, I agree. When I first started listening to classical music 40+ years ago, I avoided any Klemperer performance like the proverbial plague because they so often seemed plodding and labored. But one day I heard his EMI recording of Berlioz's _Symphonie Fantastique_ and it was a revelation. The slower tempo allowed me to hear things in the piece I'd never heard before. I began collecting Klemperer recordings, eventually becoming something of a Klemperer completist, for this same reason: the generally slower tempi allowed the music to breathe and open up, revealing voices within the orchestra often obscured by swifter performances. I recognize tempo alone is no guarantee of clarity anymore than it is profundity. Sometimes it's just boring. But, typically, I'll take Klemperer over most current conductors anyday.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

What annoys me is when a musician is well past his prime and continues professionally anyway.

Leonard Bernstein was in obvious decline when much of his VPO/Bavarian interpretations were recorded.

Bloated and much too slow. He should have left on a high note, instead of a questionable b flat.


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## superhorn (Mar 23, 2010)

Revdrdave , Klemperer's unusually slow tempi are from his later years , when most of his commercial recordings were made
for EMI with the Philharmonia orchestra .
In his later years Klemperer struggles with many physical ailments ; strokes, a brain tumor, accidents (he seems to
have been rather accident prone ) etc . A stroke left him paralyzed on one side of his body . It's a miracle
he was able to conduct at all .
Ironically , in his earlier years , Klemps had a reputation for being a speed demon , and his performances 
were said to have been downright frenetic at times . He also suffered from bi-polar disorder and even spent
some time in a mental institution !


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## revdrdave (Jan 8, 2014)

superhorn said:


> Revdrdave , Klemperer's unusually slow tempi are from his later years , when most of his commercial recordings were made
> for EMI with the Philharmonia orchestra .
> In his later years Klemperer struggles with many physical ailments ; strokes, a brain tumor, accidents (he seems to
> have been rather accident prone ) etc . A stroke left him paralyzed on one side of his body . It's a miracle
> ...


Yes, indeed. I have several recordings Klemperer made in the 1930s that are, dare we say it, fleet of foot. Partly that may have been due to the need to fit them on a set number of sides of 78 rpm records but, as you point out, Klemperer's reputation not only for his interpretations but for the breadth of his repertoire--he was a significant champion for then-contemporary music--was very different earlier in his career. While it's true that health issues later in life undoubtedly impacted his performances, his penchant for slower tempi was manifesting itself even before his EMI recordings when he was recording for VOX in the early '50s. And speaking of breadth of repertoire, by the time he was recording for EMI and setting down the bulk of what would become his recorded legacy, his repertoire had narrowed considerably to largely Haydn-Mozart-Beethoven-Brahms and the occasional Bruckner and Mahler. This wasn't a function of what EMI would allow him to record because his concerts of the time focused on the same composers. This, coupled with the fact that by the 1960s, Klemperer's interpretations had become pretty much set, became a challenge for me as a Klemperer collector: how many Klemperer Eroicas do you need, especially when, interpretively, there isn't much to choose between them?


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

Another thing that bugs me is early/baroque keyboard music referred to as "piano music". I recall a BIS/Sudbin disc of Scarlatti keyboard sonatas where the cover has in big letters "Scarlatti Piano Sonatas". If the performer played a banjo, would we call it banjo sonatas? Yes, it is a small matter, but it still irritates me.


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## Headphone Hermit (Jan 8, 2014)

ArtMusic said:


> "Classical music" being quite loosely defined, and almost anything that is composed today is lumped into the term "classical music." Just call the later - *contemporary art music* or something along those words.


it would be abbreviated to CAM .... fine, until some toad calls it Contemporarily Realised Artistic Performance Music :devil:

Better the Devil we know!


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## tempo (Nov 8, 2012)

Machiavel said:


> The Beethoven and Wagner worshippers. I guess I will never understand why someone after 20-30 years of listening is still talking and listening weekly to Beethoven ninth. Poor them they miss so much.


What a curious thing to say.


----------



## Weston (Jul 11, 2008)

BurningDesire said:


> . . .
> That isn't to say I don't like the Classical Period. I haven't heard a Haydn piece I don't like, and I like many of Mozart's later works, and his concerti. I just feel like the aesthetic is limiting to the point of being a detriment to the music being made, and I think composers like Beethoven and Schubert, who were too full of passion to be contained by that sound world, pushing the western musical world into Romanticism is one of the greatest advances in the art of music.


I'll never forget first hearing some of those Beethoven trills we think are going to resolve to the tonic but then go off in another direction entirely. I'll take all of the classic era trite trills just so we can have those few moments.



Machiavel said:


> The Beethoven and Wagner worshippers. I guess I will never understand why someone after 20-30 years of listening is still talking and listening weekly to Beethoven ninth. Poor them they miss so much.


Perhaps it is not we who miss out. On the other hand I can't say I listen to the 9th once a week. Maybe twice a year.



ArtMusic said:


> "Classical music" being quite loosely defined, and almost anything that is composed today is lumped into the term "classical music." Just call the later - contemporary art music or something along those words.


None of us would have suspected this sentiment.  In some ways I see your point. I often think of baroque music as completely separate from anything that came after. The changes that came about during the classic era were so radical (and to me borderline unpleasant) it is an entirely different genre altogether. I think the many revolutions of 20th century music and beyond are nearly as radical and as sudden.


----------



## Weston (Jul 11, 2008)

Well, I seem to have a lot to chat about in this thread. Sorry folks.



Ingélou said:


> Is it safe to come out yet? I *love* baroque trills!
> 
> What I don't like are those *big endings* that keep repeating themselves, a la Dudley Moore parody of Beethoven.
> 
> ...


Baroque trills are great!. Classic era trills resolving to the tonic are what sound trite to many of us.



Mahlerian said:


> The word "atonal", and those who use it with the impression that it means the same thing to them as it does to others who use it (without, of course, any of them being able to define it with any real consistency). Really, let's throw this word away. It means absolutely nothing, and adds nothing to our understanding of any music, past or future.


I think it is just a matter of convenience, like the term "classical" itself. I have no problem with ambiguous words, often finding they enrich the language, though I do understand a degree of frustration with them.



Novelette said:


> In short, if you exclude what you seek to exclude, you are still left with a loosely defined term.


I am reeminded of Carl Sandburg's response, "Exclusive," when asked what is the ugliest word in English. Not really related of course -- or is it?



hpowders said:


> What annoys me is when a musician is well past his prime and continues professionally anyway.
> 
> Leonard Bernstein was in obvious decline when much of his VPO/Bavarian interpretations were recorded.
> 
> Bloated and much too slow. He should have left on a high note, instead of a questionable b flat.


I have mixed feelings about this. I've heard the same thing said of non-classical performers, yet some of my favorites have managed to have a kind of second wind and produced some wonderful material I'd be sad I missed if they threw in the towel. I suppose different performers mileage varies.


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## aleazk (Sep 30, 2011)

violadude said:


> Amen! I think this applies to any field of work where the experts are panned for an imagined sense of snobbery or elitism simply for sharing what they know (certain scientific fields immediately come to mind).


Which ones ?


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## aleazk (Sep 30, 2011)

I love classical music, nothing from it annoys me. *trill* end of post.


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## violadude (May 2, 2011)

aleazk said:


> Which ones ?


Biology, geology, psychology are the main ones I had in mind.


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## violadude (May 2, 2011)

violadude said:


> Biology, geology, psychology are the main ones I had in mind.


Physics sometimes too.


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## aleazk (Sep 30, 2011)

violadude said:


> Physics sometimes too.


Off topic rant:

Some people think we think of ourselves as "god" because we talk about the origins of the universe, etc. Well, it's not our fault, the theories we have make predictions (which are obtained by purely logical deduction) about these things, we simply communicate these predictions to the public. When Einstein published his general relativity, he was thinking in mundane things like gravity, not in the origins of the universe. Some years later, some other people came and showed both theoretically and experimentally how this theory could be applied to, e.g., the origins of the universe.

The same can be said about Darwin and the theory of evolution, etc.

End of rant.


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## aleazk (Sep 30, 2011)

BurningDesire said:


> Those goddamn trill cadences from the classical period. Every time I hear a perfect cadence with that obnoxious use of a trill... I die a little inside.


I have experienced something interesting with the mannerisms of the classical era.

When I hear these mannerisms in a major key piece, they sound very superficial and annoying. But when I hear them in a minor key context, the effect is totally different, and in fact I find it very expressive. The superficiality of these gestures clash against the "sadness" of the minor key, thus creating some kind of effect of "decadence", which I find attractive.

Similar to Ravel's La Valse perhaps.


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## Ingélou (Feb 10, 2013)

Weston said:


> Baroque trills are great!. Classic era trills resolving to the tonic are what sound trite to many of us.
> .


 My bad - I should have read the thread more carefully. But what the heck - because I love classical trills too. There's just something about trills, whatever their tribe - a touch of style, a dab of elegance, a shiver of wistfulness. 
Trills *rock*!


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

My favorite are Handelian trills. Finding singers who can actually sing them; that's quite another story.

Nest would be Mozartean trills. Again. Finding singers who can execute them cleanly is a rarity.


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## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

Weston said:


> I think it is just a matter of convenience, like the term "classical" itself. I have no problem with ambiguous words, often finding they enrich the language, though I do understand a degree of frustration with them.


But most people actually have some understanding of what they mean when they use "Classical" to refer to the Western tradition of notated music.

Atonal, on the other hand, is never clearly defined in any consistent way. All of the traditional definitions (no pitch center(s), no distinction between consonance and dissonance, based on consistent use of the chromatic scale) are either completely wrong or misleading. There's no reason why music that is based on the chromatic rather than the diatonic scale should be called "atonal", anyway, as to anyone who is familiar with it, clearly it exhibits the same kinds of attractions between intervals that are present in any other music ("leading tone" half step movement and movement by fifth or fourth still sound the same).

Often, people say that "atonal music is music which is not in a key", which is true, but fails to exclude all kinds of things that the person giving the definition would by no means call "atonal", from pre-tonal music of the Renaissance and middle ages to Debussy to much of the bitonally inflected music of the 20th century. But these definitions are accepted uncritically, and furthermore, used specifically to explain why "atonal" music is wrong. "We understand things because they're in a key. This music is not in a key, therefore it makes no sense". I'm sorry, but it's the exact opposite of a convenience. It's a hindrance to any kind of understanding whatsoever.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

One of my biggest annoyances is that despite spending most of my life exploring and listening to hundreds of works, there are still thousands more that I will never be able to appreciate because time is becoming more of a crucial factor than ever before.


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## stevens (Jun 23, 2014)

One of my biggest annoyances is that Rachmaninoff didnt write more pianoconsertos (...not annoyances, more sorrow). That chopin died so young. 
(And that some other composers died old)


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## Anderjohn (Jul 6, 2014)

hpowders said:


> One of my biggest annoyances is that despite spending 60 years exploring and listening to hundreds of works, there are still thousands more that I will never be able to appreciate because time is becoming more of a crucial factor than ever before.


Absolutely agree. What I do like about it is that listening to classical music forces me to shut everything out and take the time to listen. But wow there is soooo much of it.


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## Il_Penseroso (Nov 20, 2010)

The only thing I've found really annoying is the presence of 'Snob' people (or even critics) when it comes to talk about a piece of music...


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## Headphone Hermit (Jan 8, 2014)

hpowders said:


> One of my biggest *annoyances* is that despite spending most of my life exploring and listening to hundreds of works, there are still thousands more that I will never be able to appreciate because time is becoming more of a crucial factor than ever before.


Come, come! Surely that is one of the great joys - that you'll never get to press 'open' on the CD player and say: "Well, that's that! There is nothing else left to listen to in classical music. Honey ...... Where are those Billie Jo Spears CDs that you gave me last birthday? Its time to start listening to them, now!" :lol:


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

What annoys me a lot is when someone insists a certain performance is "definitive".

There is only one performance I've ever encountered that deserves this supreme designation and that is Leonard Bernstein's performance with the NY Philharmonic of the suite from Aaron Copland's Appalachian Spring.

Every other musical composition I've ever heard is still "in play" as far as I'm concerned, regarding that illusive label; most likely explains why I have multiple performances of so much "basic repertoire".


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## Chris (Jun 1, 2010)

It annoys me that there is no technology to remove rubato from recordings during play. I can't believe it's that difficult. I would market it as Metronome Mode.

Note to all recording artists. If I want rubato I will add it mentally. Thankyou.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

One thing that really annoys me is people who feel they are superior beings, looking down on the rest of the folks, simply because the former listen to classical music.

Let's not confuse opportunity with intelligence.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Ingélou said:


> My bad - I should have read the thread more carefully. But what the heck - because I love classical trills too. There's just something about trills, whatever their tribe - a touch of style, a dab of elegance, a shiver of wistfulness.
> Trills *rock*!


Yes. Trilling can be thrilling!


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## stevens (Jun 23, 2014)

a) Coughing during a concert

b) The view that musicians were better in the past

c) The view that classical musicians are square and boring

d) The question to a young classical musician: "Do you listen to any pop music?"

e) The view that all young musicians nowadays sounds the same

f) The view that all asian musicians sounds the same

g) The view that all asian musicians are copycats 

h) Untuned pianos when you are invited to play a concert

i) The view that you cant be cute, young and good at playing Rachmaninoff, Beethoven or Bach

j) The view that you are a very intresting musician if you are young

k) The view that everyone that doesnt have the same opinions and musical taste that I have must be almost ton deaf or poorly trained

l) The view that musicality is entirely innate


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## Vesteralen (Jul 14, 2011)

stevens said:


> a) Coughing during a concert
> 
> b) The view that musicians were better in the past
> 
> ...


Wow! That's a lot of annoyances!


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## stevens (Jun 23, 2014)

Vesteralen said:


> Wow! That's a lot of annoyances!


Thank you Vesteralen! 

Here is more:

m) The view that classical music are "relaxing"

n) Teenagers playing Chopin etydes

o) The occult, unexplained view like "the art lies between the notes" or "in the pauses"

p) The view that you cant use sustain pedal when playing Bach

q) The view that handspan is important if you want to be a pianist

r) The view that says "if you are good at sightreading scores, you cant be good at improvise, playing by ear or by chords"

s) The view that states:

1) "If you play pop, you cant be a serious classical musician
2) "If you play and love classical music you cant rock"
3) "If you look like a pop star or fashion queen you cant be a serious classical musician"


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## Vesteralen (Jul 14, 2011)

stevens said:


> 3) "If you look like a pop star or fashion queen you cant be a serious classical musician"


No worries for me unless someone says, "if you look like an accountant you can't be a serious classical musician".

Of course, we already have Alfred Brendel to disprove that! :l


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

stevens said:


> Thank you Vesteralen!
> 
> Here is more:
> 
> ...


Just make sure you use the sustain pedal as little as possible.


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## geralmar (Feb 15, 2013)

ArtMusic said:


> "Classical music" being quite loosely defined, and almost anything that is composed today is lumped into the term "classical music." Just call the later - contemporary art music or something along those words.


Years ago, passing through Casa Grande, AZ, I stopped in at a small record shop and asked to see the classical music section. The eager young clerk deposited me in front of a bin labeled "Golden Oldies" and filled with '50s rock.


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## stevens (Jun 23, 2014)

I think the most annoying is when my wife asks me: "are you still working or just playing?"


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

techniquest said:


> Do you have someone in particular in mind? If not, then what's an 'Asperger-type' boy?


I'm a thinkin' there's a veritable smallish Aspergergus patch of 'em sprouting up in "today's young composers," -- and to be fair we should leave gender out of it


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

Ingélou said:


> I dislike 'sneerers' who imply that people who like the more popular pieces or composers are hicks; or who put down whole genres or types of music; to be found in reviews, on the media, or even (tell it not in Gath) on TalkClassical posts.
> 
> I find it hard to surmount my Northern roots and appreciate songs sung in the strangled posh accents of the past; today's more neutral 'received pronunciation' is what I prefer.


In my experience, "the sneerers" come mainly from the middle to upper middle class, and they are, de facto, the _petit bourgeoisie_, and have succumbed to believing the notion that liking classical and attending concerts is a matter of social status and _an indication of their social and intellectual superiority._ They're a sorry lot, imo.

A truly well brought up townie or city slicker (or well brought up anyone) would never sneer... they might, in a matter of fact manner, notice that bit of hay in your hair and how awkwardly you seem to be standing in that thar pair o' shoes, but they would neither bring it up in conversation or sneer -- they'd say "How do ya do?" and "How you're enjoying the concert?" just as they would with anyone else


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

I have one I can think of right now: recordings of Mozart's 41st symphony that last less than 35 minutes
Oh and also, come to think of it, I get slightly annoyed whenever the opening tremolos of Mahler's 7th are played unmeasured (almost every recording!!!!!!)


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## Oliver (Feb 14, 2012)

Beethoven fans who think Beethoven is the greatest composer ever and the only one worth listening to.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Buying a 9-10 disc set and having to listen to the whole thing in a couple of days to make sure there aren't any technical defects. In the process right now with the Bilson/Gardiner set of the Mozart complete keyboard concertos; got through 5 out of 9.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

Oliver said:


> Beethoven fans who think Beethoven is the greatest composer ever and the only one worth listening to.


I never got quite to that point, thanks to Handel's Messiah, but do love most of Beethoven's music. But one would miss many great works if they only listened to Beethoven all the time.


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## Morimur (Jan 23, 2014)

Oliver said:


> Beethoven fans who think Beethoven is the greatest composer ever and the only one worth listening to.


To be fair, not many have soared as high.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Lope de Aguirre said:


> To be fair, not many have soared as high.


Heh heh. I'm trying to think of the others...


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## Morimur (Jan 23, 2014)

KenOC said:


> Heh heh. I'm trying to think of the others...


Do share. xxxxxxxx. xxxxxxxx


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## tdc (Jan 17, 2011)

Lope de Aguirre said:


> Do share. xxxxxxxx. xxxxxxxx


Sure, I can help you guys out here... off the top of my head:

Monteverdi
Bach
Mozart
Brahms
Wagner
Debussy
Bartok
Stravinsky
Mahler
Prokofiev
Ravel
Ligeti

etc etc and many more...


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

One thing that has been REALLY REALLY GRATING ON MY NERVES IS LISTENING TO RECORDINGS OF BEETHOVEN THAT WHEN A VIOLIN SECTION IS DOUBLED BY A FLUTE THE RESULT IS THAT THE FLUTE CANNOT BE HEARD...WHAT IS THE POINT OF IGNORING BEETHOVEN'S METICULOUS REGARD TO TONE COLOUR?????? SAME THING APPLIES WITH OTHER CLASSICAL PERIOD ORCHESTRAL WORKS, THIS IS AN EXTREMELY COMMON ORCHESTRATION DEVICE OF THE PERIOD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :scold:


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

why......just why.........it doesn't take much to reduce the number of desks in the violin section _just for those moments of intended magic......................_


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## Guest (Jul 11, 2014)

Nothing annoys me about classical music. I'd say it's an odd question.


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## Morimur (Jan 23, 2014)

tdc said:


> Sure, I can help you guys out here... off the top of my head:
> 
> Monteverdi
> Bach
> ...


Wagner, Ravel, Prokofiev and Mahler (pains me to say) are suspect. Beethoven excelled in every genre of his day. I am not certain of the rest, with the notable exceptions of Bach, Monteverdi and Mozart.


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## geralmar (Feb 15, 2013)

People who think the 1812 Overture is better than Wellington's Victory.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

geralmar said:


> People who think the 1812 Overture is better than Wellington's Victory.


Thats a lot of people, me included!!! :lol::lol:


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

geralmar said:


> People who think the 1812 Overture is better than Wellington's Victory.


With this set, both are wonderful as both have live cannon and/or gunfire:








This set also has tracks describing the process of recording the cannons and guns as well as recording the bells for the 1812--very interesting. I suspect there is not a better sounding recording of the 1812 and Wellington's Victory than this one.


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## tdc (Jan 17, 2011)

Lope de Aguirre said:


> Wagner, Ravel, Prokofiev and Mahler (pains me to say) are suspect. Beethoven excelled in every genre of his day. I am not certain of the rest, with the notable exceptions of Bach, Monteverdi and Mozart.


Beethoven did well in many genres, though I don't agree that he excelled in opera, choral or vocal music. He did not excel in counterpoint or orchestration - he certainly had his weak areas.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

tdc said:


> Beethoven did well in many genres, though I don't agree that he excelled in opera...


He for sure excelled in one opera.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

When I'm watching a movie with a "companion" (big mistake!) and the dialogue stops and either a song is sung or there's a gorgeous musical interlude before the dialog resumes, the companion uses that as an excuse to begin yapping! Why are so many of my companions so insensitive to music?? I keep going SHHHHHH!!! and they look at me like I'm nuts!!!

I hate that!!!


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## CypressWillow (Apr 2, 2013)

What is more irritating than ignorance? (Not meant as an invitation to the argumentative types to hijack this thread into a debate, by the way. OK?)

And I'm not even talking here about ignorance, such as when audience members, completely unfamiliar with a work they are going to hear, applaud at what _feels_ like the end of the piece. I pass lightly over those who don't know that a work may consist of several Movements and we don't generally want applause between movements. Sheesh, that's pretty widespread and it's just not worth getting irritated about. Fellow audience members and their embarrassed companions usually shut them up pretty darn quick, anyway.

No, I'm talking about the kind of ignorance that insists It.Is.Right!
What? Can such a thing exist in the domain of Classical music?

Herewith three depressing experiences. When I lived in Texas, I heard recordings of von Weber's Invitation to the Dance (orchestral version by Berlioz) played on the Classical station in Dallas, WRR-FM. I also heard it played on a station in Houston. Both times the Coda was omitted and the announcer chimed in with [his] next piece of business. Incensed, I called and got through to the announcer, asking why wasn't the end of the piece aired? Both announcers informed me, in amazement, that the piece was aired through to its end. When I persisted, the Coda, the Coda, the bored and patronizing tone appeared in their respective voices and I could almost hear the opinion "crackpot!" humming along the phone lines. (Back in the day when phones were lines.)

All right, I reminded myself, I was in Texas, and let it go. (NB, also not an invitation to the argumentative types to chime in with furious defenses of the cultural level, or lack thereof, in the great state o' Texas.) Simply, I told myself soothingly, Texas-based Classical radio announcers who were Just.Being.Right. 
Finally I moved up here to the Empire state. Ah. Relief. 
Then. Just a few weeks ago I heard a recording of this piece on, you guessed it, the local PBS station. No freakin' Coda!!! No Coda! I didn't call. Too beaten down by Life, I guess, and maybe beginning to doubt my own memory and/or sanity. Irritated, sure, but in a sad and remote way.

Then, just today, this! Even when the poor Conductor gives a furious gesture to stop the ignorant applauding at the freakin' apparent end of the piece, the audience Keeps.On.Applauding!






*Sigh*


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

At what point is the gesture to the audience made?? I just watched the last 45 seconds and didn't notice it. 

Oh, and I hate it when at times I am showing someone a piece of music I like and they hear the beginning and then skip to parts later on to see if it gets better! 

Oh, I kinda did that....


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## david johnson (Jun 25, 2007)

some vocalist's vibrato can be a bother. my rule: if I notice it a lot, it's bad news for me


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## Rhythm (Nov 2, 2013)

CypressWillow said:


> ...Then, just today, this! Even when the poor Conductor gives a furious gesture to stop the ignorant applauding at the freakin' apparent end of the piece, the audience Keeps.On.Applauding!
> *Sigh*





ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> At what point is the gesture to the audience made?? I just watched the last 45 seconds and didn't notice it. ...


CoAG has probably already found it. The conductor attempted to quiet those applauding before the Coda at ~mark 8.20 in the video. Yeah, it appears architecture and its features and sophisticated treatments are no reflection of some unknowledgeable listeners in a classical music audience.
Another *Sigh*


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## SONNET CLV (May 31, 2014)

Things that annoy me most in classical music?

When an opera ends, and a fat lady hasn't even sung. (Britten’s “Billy Budd" is a case in point.)


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## Fugue Meister (Jul 5, 2014)

The extreme dynamic range. I mean I enjoy it but when I play it really loudly so I can hear the piano sections (dynamic marking not the instrument) I have turn the volume way back down on the triple fortes or else my neighbors throw things at the wall. 

You know on second though my answer is: my neighbors.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Neighbors caused me to move (by choice)....twice. One kept banging up on his ceiling below me.
The other one shared a terrace with me and whenever I played music she would look right into my window from the terrace and say loudly, "Nice music!" and then start laughing. What a freakin' nightmare!


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## Tristan (Jan 5, 2013)

-Recordings of _ballets_ with cuts all over the place. How hard is it to just record all of _Sleeping Beauty_? My Dorati recording contains Nos. 27 & 29, but is missing 18, whereas my Previn recording has 18, but is missing 27 & 29. Grr....

-I also agree about conductors recording things too slowly or rushing through something. I know it's all interpretation and personal taste, but there are some tendencies that just shouldn't be broken. I recently listened to a recording of The Great Gate of Kiev that was so rushed/fast that it made laugh. Ridiculous 

-That darned Romantic cadence/ending that's used to end every piece written between 1830-1900. You know what I'm talking about...


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