# Third Round:Il Trovatore: D'amor sull' ali rosee . Destinn, Leider, Ponselle



## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

The winners of the three rounds will compete against Callas for best and second best. Emma Destinova was her real name and Emma Destinn was her stage name.




Il Trovatore. Opera in 4 Acts - Act 4 - Timor di me? - D´amor sull´ ali rosée · Giuseppe Verdi · Orchestr/Walter Rogers · Ema Destinnová 




*Frida Leider; "D'amor sull'ali rosee"; IL TROVATORE; Giuseppe Verdi




 Il Trovatore: D'amor sull' ali rosee (Recorded 1918) · Rosa Ponselle · Giuseppe Verdi · Romano Romani *


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## MAS (Apr 15, 2015)

I was surprised that Destinn’s voice was so light and the brightness reminds me that not every dramatic soprano has a dark voice. She sings the high notes in the old fashioned manner, without propulsion, which to me sound a bit flat. She sings the high D on the word _penne _as Verdi asks. Her _cadenza _is a bit clumsy, but it’s followed by a long trill and ends on one of those high notes without propulsion.

Leider was another surprise, not because she sings in German, but because she is so fluid, and her high notes are splendid, but for some reason she hurries through her divisions, and she can trill. She eschews her high D, not a deal breaker.

Ponselle seems to start gingerly, but has gorgeous trills. She sings everything carefully and the high note on _improvido_ is on the vibratoless side. She holds on to some of the _acuti_ and withholds the vibrato on others. The cadenza is followed by a long trill and a high note without propulsion. In the old days, they were taught to sing the high notes “on the breath,” so to speak, but I dislike the sound it makes. Ponselle doesn’t always sing them that way.

I think I prefer Leider in this.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

MAS said:


> I was surprised that Destiny’s voice was so light and the brightness reminds me that not every dramatic soprano has a dark voice. She sings the high notes in the old fashioned manner, without propulsion, which to me sound a bit flat. She sings the high D on the word _penne _as Verdi asks. Her _cadenza _is a bit clumsy, but it’s followed by a long trill and ends on one of those high mooted without propulsion.
> 
> Leider was another surprise, not because she sings in German, but because she is so fluid, and her high notes are splendid, but for some reason she hurries through her divisions, and she can trill. She eschews her high D, not a deal breaker.
> 
> ...


What do you mean by without propulsion ( without force?)?
I am not as crazy about Ponselle's high notes but everything else is beautiful, especially the chocolaty way her low notes sound at the start.
I can't imagine any other Wagnerian singing this as well as Leider did.


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## MAS (Apr 15, 2015)

Seattleoperafan said:


> What do you mean by without propulsion ( without force?)?


Yes, without anything to push them out. If you use push or force in connection with voice, it makes it sound like pushing or forcing the voice, which is not what I’m trying to say, so I try not to use those terms.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

I keep hoping to hear Emmy Destinn sing something that will make me like her. Once again, no luck. Her slow vibrato - not only slow but variable - gives her singing a loose, messy feel which I find distracting. I gather she was quite a dramatic performer, but here I need a tighter vocal quality. 

Too bad Leider sings in a German translation that wreaks havoc on the normal phrasing of the music, with sentence breaks and breaths falling in odd places. It just isn't quite the same piece. She had a superb instrument and all the necessary vocal skills, but I'd like to hear her singing it in the original to hear how she would render the phrases as Verdi conceived them.

I have no substantial criticism of Ponselle, who is stylistically idiomatic and vocally masterful. The tempo is quick and the effect a bit superficial, but this aria doesn't call for deep pathos and needs mainly the beautiful line and control Ponselle provides.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Woodduck said:


> I keep hoping to hear Emmy Destinn sing something that will make me like her. Once again, no luck. Her slow vibrato - not only slow but variable - gives her singing a loose, messy feel which I find distracting. I gather she was quite a dramatic performer, but here I need a tighter vocal quality.
> 
> Too bad Leider sings in a German translation that wreaks havoc on the normal phrasing of the music, with sentence breaks and breaths falling in odd places. It just isn't quite the same piece. She had a superb instrument and all the necessary vocal skills, but I'd like to hear her singing it in the original to hear how she would render the phrases as Verdi conceived them.
> 
> I have no substantial criticism of Ponselle, who is stylistically idiomatic and vocally masterful. The tempo is quick and the effect a bit superficial, but this aria doesn't call for deep pathos and needs mainly the beautiful line and control Ponselle provides.


Regarding Ponselle, much of her recordings were when she just started out when she was just 25 as in the case with this aria. This probably helped in this aria as that was when her facility up high was at her best, but you compare this with her First Act of Norma recorded in 29 when she was 32 and after years of performing and you see an artist much more in the vein of the great Callas in being able to bring the music alive. Later this year we may have another Casta Diva contest as we have many new members since a year and a half ago and we only did Callas and Ponselle but at that time it was our most popular contest when Callas got 25 votes but Ponselle got 13 votes IN THIS CROWD I would not be surprised if later in her career if she transposed this down. Even Callas grew as an artist in her roles even though her voice was at it's best in her 20's.
It sounds so odd to hear Verdi sung in German but for 15 years my sister sang in nothing but German no matter the composer up till the 80's. You are of course correct that it does break up the phrasing as it takes longer to say things in German than other languages often. I miss a lot when things are sung in English so I prefer no translations and supra titles... even in English.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

A word about the high Db at the end before the final cadenza. Most sopranos opt for a lower variation. Destinn sings it but, though Ponselle appears to, she doesn't because she sings the aria in a lower key. I don't have perfect pitch, but I'd always suspected her version was transposed down and playing just the end ofher version and Leider's confirmed it to me. It's a tricky note, as it almost comes out of nowhere and, sung too loud, it can obtrude on the mood the singer has created. Callas did sing it when she first sang the role, but soon dropped it and went for the lower variation. This was at the time she was still popping out top Ebs as if they were the easiest thing in the world, so declining vocal resources obviously had nothing to do with her decision.

Like Woodduck, I've never much warmed to Destinn. She was apparently a great stage performer, but her records don't inspire much love and one assumes the recording process exaggerated faults that were perhaps not so apparent when confronted with her stage presence. She went out first.

I've known both the Leider and Ponselle performances for some time now and both are amongst my favourites. How I wish Leider's performance were in Italian, because in most respects it is ideal, but the language plays havoc with Verdi's melismatic vocal line. The tone is warmly feminine and she has a superb trill, which is not something we'd expect from a Wagnerian these days.

Ponselle gets a mark against her for singing at a lower key, which evidently suits her voice, as she sounds absolutely gorious here. She has fabulous trills and weaves an atmosphere of nocturnal melancholy. I've always felt, as I do with so many others, that the cadenza needed a litte more breadth, so that it becomes the summation of what has gone before, rather than just a cadenza tacked on at the end. Time constraints no doubt played their part here.

I'm giving this to Ponselle, whilst noting that Leider in Italian might well have pipped her to the post.


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

First time I ever heard the much talked about Destinn and was so looking forward to one superb voice only to be let down. She just doesn't have anything but a trill that I can cut my teeth on.
Singing this aria in German absolutely destroys my vision of it.
Although Ponselle took certain liberties with tempos, the nuances she brings are super good. Ponselle gets the garland.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

nina foresti said:


> First time I ever heard the much talked about Destinn and was so looking forward to one superb voice only to be let down. She just doesn't have anything but a trill that I can cut my teeth on.
> Singing this aria in German absolutely destroys my vision of it.
> Although Ponselle took certain liberties with tempos, the nuances she brings are super good. Ponselle gets the garland.


Destinnova was a big deal back in the day. Perhaps she didn't record well. I thought we'd better at least look at her. In your country did they do operas in your language or German back in the day or do you know?


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Seattleoperafan said:


> Destinnova was a big deal back in the day. Perhaps she didn't record well. I thought we'd better at least look at her. In your country did they do operas in your language or German back in the day or do you know?


Many commentators have noted that Destinn's records are not really representative of her reputation. I think it's likely she didn't record well and maybe she was inhibited by the whole process. It was all so new back then.


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## ScottK (Dec 23, 2021)

When you've got it you've got it and if you can step up to this aria and keep up with Rosa Ponselle, you've got it. Would not have believed it if the names were not Destinn and Leider! I can't imagine Ponselle could Liebestod quite the way Lieder pulls this off. But when all were done, I still thought the volutuous voiced trio was headed by Rosa


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## ScottK (Dec 23, 2021)

I'm surprised that people liked Destinn so little. I didn't think she vied with Ponselle to quite the degree that Lieder did but, just off by a bit. I thought the sound was gorgeous.


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## ALT (Mar 1, 2021)

My vote goes to Destinn, one of those creatures who could sing practically everything (rare nowadays but not so then) and with a sound and manner all her own. Curiously, too bad that no live recordings of hers exist, to the best of my knowledge, so we will never know how she sounded in open space. Another thing about Destinn: her accomplishments came without the aid of glamour, for she had none.


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