# Is it a C or a B in Beethoven's Moonlight Sonata?



## bluflake (Mar 25, 2016)

Hi all!

My first post here, and I want to add that I'm not good at reading or playing music but I love to listen to it. 

I have a question about the first movement, Adagio sostenuto, of Beethoven's piano sonata No. 14 ("Moonlight sonata"). This blog post claims that in measure 12, the second note of the second triplet should be a C and not a B.

I'm no expert, but as far as I can tell, that's wrong. I've tried to analyze recordings by Pollini, Barenboim, Jando and Poon and to me, they all seem to play a B there instead of a C. Am I right or wrong in this?

Grateful for a reply!


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## mstar (Aug 14, 2013)

If most of the prominent pianists are playing a B, then I'd just go with a B. 
On the other hand, you could try both notes and see which one you like better. I've added an extra note to a Debussy here or there, and I've heard others do it as well. So changing it from a B to a C shouldn't be a big deal.

In the end, it comes down to your own musical interpretation. What do _you_, the pianist, feel? Is it a C or a B?


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## Dr Johnson (Jun 26, 2015)

The sheet music here has a B.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

For goodness sakes, skip that sleep-inducing first movement and play the wonderful second movement! :lol:


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## GreenMamba (Oct 14, 2012)

The argument from the blog:



> There's always been a discrepancy over the twelfth bar on whether to play the note c or b in the second triplet group:
> 
> But, in fact, there shouldn't be a discrepancy, because, as per the counterpoint rules of the classical period, two separate voices mustn't move in parallel octaves or fifths, unless one is doubling the other. Clearly, the middle triplet note is not doubling the (already-doubled) bass-line. And hence - c, and not b, should be played.


Interesting. Has this always been debated?


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## Dr Johnson (Jun 26, 2015)

hpowders said:


> For goodness sakes,* skip that sleep-inducing first movement *and play the wonderful second movement! :lol:


If you feel like that, here's a guaranteed cure for insomnia:


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## Weston (Jul 11, 2008)

Maybe it's a B# ?  I guess that's been argued before ad infinitum.


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## Gouldanian (Nov 19, 2015)

Dr Johnson said:


> If you feel like that, here's a guaranteed cure for insomnia:


No, here's a guaranteed incentive for suicide...


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## mstar (Aug 14, 2013)

Wow! Nobody's reprimanded me (so far) for adding a note or so to Debussy!
I'm genuinely surprised and somewhat pleased.


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## GreenMamba (Oct 14, 2012)

mstar said:


> Wow! Nobody's reprimanded me (so far) for adding a note or so to Debussy!
> I'm genuinely surprised and somewhat pleased.


I'm OK with it, but I suspect a lot of this is because we don't know where you play. If someone bought a recording (or went to a concert) played like this, you'd surely get some push back.


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## ArtMusic (Jan 5, 2013)

B for Beethoven.


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## mstar (Aug 14, 2013)

GreenMamba said:


> I'm OK with it, but I suspect a lot of this is because we don't know where you play. If someone bought a recording (or went to a concert) played like this, you'd surely get some push back.


No, I wouldn't go that far. Just for personal enjoyment.


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## bluflake (Mar 25, 2016)

Thanks everyone for your thoughts!

I'm practicing playing it as well as creating an electronic "remix" of it. It's such a beautiful piece. To B or not to B is not a big thing really, but once I started researching it I had a hard time stopping.

*mstar *- yes, I have tried both B & C and I most definitely feel the B most. I like the idea that you add a note here or there to Debussy. Artistic interpretation!

*Dr Johnson *- Thanks, that's a hauntingly beautiful version! But... ARRGGH! It's a C!  Listen here at 0:53. *sigh* I have realized I prefer a B, despite counterpoint rules and whatnot. 

*Greenmamba & Weston* - That's what I'm also curious about - has this really been a "debate"? I thought talkclassical.com might be a good place to ask. 

So, finally, I thought I'd investigate what the author, Mr. B himself, intended back in 1801. I found a scan of Beethoven's original ("autograph") score on Wikipedia, (the previously mentioned blog has a screenshot of this as well) and if I read it correctly (the penultimate bar on the very bottom), he did in fact write it as a C.

Full respect to your composition Ludwig, but I do agree with pianists such as Pollini, Barenboim, Jando and Poon that B sounds better. To me, the C clashes slightly with the B in the bass.

Phuh!


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

bluflake said:


> So, finally, I thought I'd investigate what the author, Mr. B himself, intended back in 1801. I found a scan of Beethoven's original ("autograph") score on Wikipedia, (the previously mentioned blog has a screenshot of this as well) and if I read it correctly (the penultimate bar on the very bottom), he did in fact write it as a C.
> 
> Full respect to your composition Ludwig, but I do agree with pianists such as Pollini, Barenboim, Jando and Poon that B sounds better. To me, the C clashes slightly with the B in the bass.
> 
> Phuh!


You have not read it correctly. Not even close. The measure you have indicated in the MS is measure 25 of the sonata, not measure 12! The first page, the one with the relevant measure, is missing from the pdf file. By the way, the correct note is quite obviously a B, not a C. There is no controversy here.


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## bluflake (Mar 25, 2016)

EdwardBast said:


> You have not read it correctly. Not even close. The measure you have indicated in the MS is measure 25 of the sonata, not measure 12! The first page, the one with the relevant measure, is missing from the pdf file.


Thanks for correcting me about the score, EdwardBast! :tiphat: I wonder if the first page of the (autograph) score has been permanently lost or if it's just not available on Wikipedia.



EdwardBast said:


> By the way, the correct note is quite obviously a B, not a C. There is no controversy here.


Yes, I agree.

We have a few random "C occurences" on the internet though:


This blog claims: _ "...as per the counterpoint rules of the classical period, two separate voices mustn't move in parallel octaves or fifths, unless one is doubling the other. Clearly, the middle triplet note is not doubling the (already-doubled) bass-line. And hence - c, and not b, should be played."_

I don't know enough music theory to confirm or refute that statement though - could you help me?

 Here's a recording with a C, this 60 minute version on YouTube mentioned earlier. I haven't found anything about source or pianist on this one...

...but they are in minority, so as you put it, we probably don't have a controversy here.


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## Abraham Lincoln (Oct 3, 2015)




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## Petwhac (Jun 9, 2010)

I think a case can be made for either and I actually can't decide which I prefer. 
I imagine most editions have a B. My old Craxton/Tovey one does.


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

bluflake said:


> Thanks for correcting me about the score, EdwardBast! :tiphat: I wonder if the first page of the (autograph) score has been permanently lost or if it's just not available on Wikipedia.


I think if the first page were available they would have shown it.



bluflake said:


> We have a few random "C occurences" on the internet though:
> 
> 
> This blog claims: _ "...as per the counterpoint rules of the classical period, two separate voices mustn't move in parallel octaves or fifths, unless one is doubling the other. Clearly, the middle triplet note is not doubling the (already-doubled) bass-line. And hence - c, and not b, should be played."_
> ...





This "rule" is generally followed. But in this case a more important one takes precedence: The roots of Neapolitan chords want to move downward. (The chord at the beginning of m. 12 is a Neapolitan of B minor in root position, which is quite exceptional in and of itself.) Moving them up sounds lame, and doubly so when, as here, the other Cs proceed to a dissonant passing tone. Play the chords of m. 12 as block chords keeping a C in the right hand and the senselessness of the voice leading is apparent.


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## mstar (Aug 14, 2013)

Abraham Lincoln said:


>


Says Beethoven. 
Does he same opinion on _writing_ music, does anyone know? 
(I mean... the Pathetique, for one...)


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## Bruckner Anton (Mar 10, 2016)

B sounds better than C to me. The section is generally in e minor context, the previous VI is developed into i64, and if the previous C is repeated, it becomes a non-harmonic tone. It is not a better choice although it prevents a parallel octave.


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

Bruckner Anton said:


> B sounds better than C to me. The section is generally in e minor context, the previous VI is developed into i64, and if the previous C is repeated, it becomes a non-harmonic tone. It is not a better choice although it prevents a parallel octave.


I agree with the conclusion, however, the passage is in B minor, cadencing on the tonic at the beginning of m. 13. Before that (beat 2 of m. 12) we have V6/5 of B minor with a 7-6 suspension, and on the first beat, the Neapolitan in root position(!) If one leaves the C on the second quarter note, the B in the bass is a dissonant passing tone; or, if one believes that the second quarter has a passing E minor chord, then the C would be, as you suggest, an unexplained nonharmonic tone.


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## gardibolt (May 22, 2015)

The first page of the autograph (with the first 13 measures) is indeed lost.

The first edition with Beethoven's corrections, however, survives, and that includes the B, with no comment by Beethoven.

Barry Cooper's critical edition of the sonata uses the B as well.


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## Petwhac (Jun 9, 2010)

EdwardBast said:


> I agree with the conclusion, however, the passage is in B minor, cadencing on the tonic at the beginning of m. 13. Before that (beat 2 of m. 12) we have V6/5 of B minor with a 7-6 suspension, and on the first beat, the Neapolitan in root position(!) If one leaves the C on the second quarter note, the B in the bass is a dissonant passing tone; or, if one believes that the second quarter has a passing E minor chord, then the C would be, as you suggest, an unexplained nonharmonic tone.


I don't have the score in front of me but to my mind the passage _modulates_ to B minor from C. The F sharp chord in first inversion is a pivot chord. The Bs in the left hand could be as you say, a passing tone.

Don't the opening measures mirror this but in the minor? The bass moves to a passing tone B in the context of the C sharp minor to A major harmony.

As I said, I believe both choices are justifiable and while keeping the C in the right hand creates a passing dissonance (as in bar 2), having the B sounds a little ungainly as it makes that beat very B 'heavy' and the parallel motion does stick out somewhat.


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

Petwhac said:


> I don't have the score in front of me but to my mind the passage _modulates_ to B minor from C. The F sharp chord in first inversion is a pivot chord. The Bs in the left hand could be as you say, a passing tone.


The C is too fleeting for me to feel it as a key. The C chord, I would say, is the pivot chord - tonicized by its preceding V4/3 and functioning as a predominant in B minor. The F# chord can't be a pivot since it has no meaning in C major, right?; It is already in the key of B minor. Nevertheless, the B minor chord in m. 13 doesn't sound like a strong arrival. I think this is because it is too early in the phrase and the preceding dominant isn't in root position.



Petwhac said:


> As I said, I believe both choices are justifiable and while keeping the C in the right hand creates a passing dissonance (as in bar 2), having the B sounds a little ungainly as it makes that beat very B 'heavy' and the parallel motion does stick out somewhat.


Given Gardibolt's report on the corrected first edition, however, I see no reason to entertain the C on the second quarter as a possibility. It just sounds messy. For me, a C would be far more ungainly.


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## Petwhac (Jun 9, 2010)

EdwardBast said:


> The C is too fleeting for me to feel it as a key. The C chord, I would say, is the pivot chord - tonicized by its preceding V4/3 and functioning as a predominant in B minor. The F# chord can't be a pivot since it has no meaning in C major, right?; It is already in the key of B minor. Nevertheless, the B minor chord in m. 13 doesn't sound like a strong arrival. I think this is because it is too early in the phrase and the preceding dominant isn't in root position.
> 
> Given Gardibolt's report on the corrected first edition, however, I see no reason to entertain the C on the second quarter as a possibility. It just sounds messy. For me, a C would be far more ungainly.


Regarding whether or not the F# is a pivot chord: it turns into F# from a diminished 7th which may more correctly be seen a the pivot I suppose.

Anyway, if the consensus among Beethoven scholars is that he put a B then who am I to argue? But if I was performing it, I might just play the C and take the flak.
I may also claim that the C also neatly mirrors one of the great moments (for me) in the movement. Namely, a few bars later when we get the delicious dissonance when the highest note is a C over an E minor harmony with that crunching minor 9th!


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

Petwhac said:


> Regarding whether or not the F# is a pivot chord: it turns into F# from a diminished 7th which may more correctly be seen a the pivot I suppose.
> 
> Anyway, if the consensus among Beethoven scholars is that he put a B then who am I to argue? But if I was performing it, I might just play the C and take the flak.
> I may also claim that the C also neatly mirrors one of the great moments (for me) in the movement. Namely, a few bars later when we get the delicious dissonance when the highest note is a C over an E minor harmony with that crunching minor 9th!


It isn't a diminished seventh chord! That G is a 7-6 suspension (V 7-6/3). So: b minor: N - (passing iv6/4) - V 7-6/3 - i - V - i?

It isn't the dissonance that bothers me. It's the voice leading. If you think of the C becoming a B-sharp for the resolution up to C-sharp (which makes sense in B minor), then we have what amounts to a simultaneous cross-relation with the passing B below. But whatever bloats your goat


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## bluflake (Mar 25, 2016)

*Gardibolt *- thanks for the info about Beethoven's surviving corrected score, then we know Beethoven actually wrote it as a B. 

*EdwardBlast & Petwhac* - I am impressed about your knowledge in musical theory, unfortunately I'm not educated enough to follow...  I prefer the B myself just since my ears tell me the C sounds dissonant coupled with the B in the bass.

I wonder where this notion of the C comes from? Has this ever really been a debate or a proper argument, as claimed by that blog? And does anyone know of an actual recording with a C? (Except the previous uncredited YouTube link.)

By the way, what are _your _favorite recordings of the first movement of Quasi una fantasia? I like this one (Spotify) by Paul Badura-Skoda, I like the sensitivity of the playing and the tempo (I know there are faster and slower versions than this) and the tone of the piano/recording. The sound is a little subdued and not so grand and opulent. I think it suits the mood...


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## Petwhac (Jun 9, 2010)

bluflake said:


> *Gardibolt *- thanks for the info about Beethoven's surviving corrected score, then we know Beethoven actually wrote it as a B.
> 
> *EdwardBlast & Petwhac* - I am impressed about your knowledge in musical theory, unfortunately I'm not educated enough to follow...  I prefer the B myself just since my ears tell me the C sounds dissonant coupled with the B in the bass.
> 
> ...


 I don't really have a favourite recording. The one you posted was a little faster than I'm used to but it's all a question of taste I suppose.


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## gardibolt (May 22, 2015)

bluflake said:


> *Gardibolt *- thanks for the info about Beethoven's surviving corrected score, then we know Beethoven actually wrote it as a B.


Well, I'd say he _probably_ wrote it as a B. The engravers were sometimes sloppy to the point of being maddening, and Beethoven didn't always catch all of their errors. But it's the best evidence we have, and it very strongly points to his intending a B.


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