# White tie in concerts: Out of place and time?



## Dimboukas (Oct 12, 2011)

We all have associated classical music performances with white tie, i.e. tailcoats, white bow ties etc. Does this attire have to become obsolete?

It can easily become. White tie does not serve its purpose any more. Not that it has any specific purpose but it does nothing but discriminating the performers from the audience and for me this is not desirable. Normally, the musicians would wear something formal for the evening or something formal or informal for the morning and so would the audience do. Possibly, a dress code would be written on the invitation or the ticket. 

This was the case until the 50s when people would still wear white tie, mainly for the opera, or the concerts. Then we switched to looser clothes, from suits to t-shirts. And as a result, musicians’ clothes are no more than a uniform and a relic not of musical or X tradition but of sartorial tradition. And is it a nice and neat uniform? I don’t think so.

Rarely do I see a really correct white tie worn by a conductor not to talk about the orchestra. They usually wear wrong accessories such as cummerbunds, wrong collars, short tails and others. And then! we see Mischa Maisky wearing glowing jackets and necklaces! He knows he doesn’t fit but he doesn’t care maybe because he prefers being more closely to the audience that to the rest of the orchestra. I am a hundred percent sure that there are more people in the audience that match with Maisky’s clothes than in the orchestra!

So I don’t find any reason why musicians should wear this uniform. Musicians are just people that should follow the same dress code as the audience and they simply play the music. I think the best solution is that the musicians should wear the most formal attire one in the audience could wear. Nowadays this is usually a suit with a tie. 

Sorry for the non-musical subject but this is something that concerns me! What is your opinion?


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## Polednice (Sep 13, 2009)

I don't think it separates the audience and performers - it's just a bit of cloth. If anyone really thinks that the musicians' fancy uniform creates an insurmountable chasm between them and the music, then their priorities are messed up. But because it is just cloth, it all looks like a rather silly and unnecessary expense. Let's just have them wearing ordinary formal wear.


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## Stargazer (Nov 9, 2011)

People really don't dress up anymore unless its required...it's not like the older times when just about everyone wore suits/dresses all the time. I'm no "fashion" person so that's about the only comment I can make lol.


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## violadude (May 2, 2011)

And why is this topic so important?


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## Polednice (Sep 13, 2009)

violadude said:


> And why is this topic so important?


I certainly think there are more important things for orchestras to be doing if we're talking about getting people into the concert hall - direct engagement, for example, by talking briefly about pieces from the podium instead of dolling out expensive (and badly written) programmes. I think it's quite strange, really, that we attend concerts where there is utter silence from all participants excepting the music itself.


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## Dimboukas (Oct 12, 2011)

"_And why is this topic so important? _"

Because it makes classical music performances seem unaccessible, out of place and time and even elitist.


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## violadude (May 2, 2011)

Well it speaks quite a bit to someones messed up/brainwashed way of thinking when they judge musical quality based on what the performer is wearing.


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## Polednice (Sep 13, 2009)

Dimboukas said:


> Because it makes classical music performances seem unaccessible, out of place and time and even elitist.


I think a greater problem is the extortionate fees that some conductors demand, the snobbery of some aged audience members, and the lack of effort beyond crappy programme notes to engage newcomers. Clothing really isn't the problem. At worst, it's a symptom, but I think it's really just a harmless tradition.


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

Duplicate, sorry.......................................................


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

Dimboukas said:


> "_And why is this topic so important? _"
> 
> Because it makes classical music performances seem unaccessible, out of place and time and even elitist.


But you WERE AT a performance, so lets see here:
Out of place: you were in place to hear it.
From another time: the music probably was from another time, but you were there, in the present, the music from the past alive in performance, in the present.

Elitist: it is, was and always will be -- only about three per cent of the entire population consume classical music, most of them are only listening to the more standard and accepted older classical music.

Clothes: The "uniform" of the musicians in black and white makes eighty people on stage clearly a team, and is less visually distracting to the audience than if each of them were wearing any old thing.

P.s. I hope you enjoyed the performance of the music -- that is what you went for, I assume


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## SiegendesLicht (Mar 4, 2012)

As for performers, I really like to see them dressed in suit and tie. Where else can you see such attire nowadays? 

As for the audience, some people think of classical concerts as of a special time, a festivity, and they want to enhance that sense by dressing in a festive way as well. Some other people (like myself) also think of concerts as festive occassions, but feel that music is enough to generate all the joy and solemn feeling they ever need and therefore dress casually. To each his own.


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## brianvds (May 1, 2013)

I have always found it vaguely irritating that both musicians and audience should have to dress up in expensive, uncomfortable and even downright silly clothes for a performance, though I would not say it is very high on my list of things that could be improved. As someone pointed out, it may be more of a symptom than a problem in itself.

Me, I do not voluntarily attend any events that require me to wear a tie. But that's just me.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

I saw some quote the other day about how orchestras look like Victorian-era undertakers...


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## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

I would have thought that one prime consideration for a performer is to feel comfortable, especially under hot lights. Tails, bow tie and a starched shirt front and collar doesn't seem conducive to this somehow.


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

Dimboukas said:


> We all have associated classical music performances with white tie, i.e. tailcoats, white bow ties etc. Does this attire have to become obsolete?
> 
> It can easily become. White tie does not serve its purpose any more. Not that it has any specific purpose but it does nothing but discriminating the performers from the audience and for me this is not desirable. Normally, the musicians would wear something formal for the evening or something formal or informal for the morning and so would the audience do. Possibly, a dress code would be written on the invitation or the ticket.
> 
> ...


I wonder why it concerns you and it was much later than the 50s when things began to alter.
I think it's a pity. But I suppose music might as well join the general scruffiness of the world as it is now,perhaps they should all dress like Kennedy.


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## Piwikiwi (Apr 1, 2011)

moody said:


> I wonder why it concerns you and it was much later than the 50s when things began to alter.
> I think it's a pity. But I suppose music might as well join the general scruffiness of the world as it is now,perhaps they should all dress like Kennedy.


Why is it a pity? I'm a student, I can't afford a white tie etc, but I do love the music. Having a dress code will seriously defer me from going to classical concerts. I do prefer if the musicians wear formal clothes because it displays a form of professionalism.


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

Piwikiwi said:


> Why is it a pity? I'm a student, I can't afford a white tie etc, but I do love the music. Having a dress code will seriously defer me from going to classical concerts. I do prefer if the musicians wear formal clothes because it displays a form of professionalism.


The discussion IS ABOUT THE PERFORMERS.


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## Crudblud (Dec 29, 2011)

Personally, I don't care if musicians play Mahler wearing "I'm With Stupid" t-shirts, 10 gallon hats and clown shoes. The important thing to me is the music; as long as they play well, why should I care what they're wearing?


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## Piwikiwi (Apr 1, 2011)

moody said:


> The discussion IS ABOUT THE PERFORMERS.


 I'm sorry that I misunderstood your post, but I do think that USING CAPS LOCK DOESN'T HELP TO STRENGTHEN YOUR ARGUMENTS.


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

Piwikiwi said:


> I'm sorry that I misunderstood your post, but I do think that USING CAPS LOCK DOESN'T HELP TO STRENGTHEN YOUR ARGUMENTS.


Well,it might persuade you to look at the original post which is always a good idea of course. Not to mention the fact that that I wasn't putting forward an argument.


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## Piwikiwi (Apr 1, 2011)

moody said:


> Well,it might persuade you to look at the original post which is always a good idea of course. Not to mention the fact that that I wasn't putting forward an argument.


I did read the original post but I misinterpreted your post. Using caps locks simply comes across to me as a little childish.


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## Ingélou (Feb 10, 2013)

Crudblud said:


> Personally, I don't care if musicians play Mahler wearing "I'm With Stupid" t-shirts, 10 gallon hats and clown shoes. The important thing to me is the music; as long as they play well, why should I care what they're wearing?


I so admire you! You are *very* strongminded, Crudblud. I'm imagining listening to Mahlerian Musicians thus clad - to start off with, I'd be *giggling* - then I might feel *distracted* - then *annoyed*, with them for distracting me, and with myself for wasting my ticket money not listening to Mahler.

Actually, it sounds like one of those 'doctoral-thesis' psychology experiments. You'd need other groups listening to classical performers dressed traditionally, or music that fitted the 'I'm with stupid' teeshirts & ten gallon hats. Oh, and it would be cheaper not to be based on Mahler - chamber music would be more economical, definitely. 

To answer the question - I wouldn't like an orchestra to wear casual clothes that didn't match up, but jackets & evening dresses don't seem like comfortable gear for musicians. I think I'd like some sort of colour co-ordination & smart but comfortable clothes, so the players looked like a 'professional team'. It would create the right ambience & respect the audience too.


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

Piwikiwi said:


> I did read the original post but I misinterpreted your post. Using caps locks simply comes across to me as a little childish.


How long are you going to drag this out,you got the wrong end of the stick so why don't you drop it. I'll print my posts the way I wish--NOT THE WAY YOU WISH.


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## Taggart (Feb 14, 2013)

Full Star Trek Uniform?


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## brianvds (May 1, 2013)

Piwikiwi said:


> Why is it a pity? I'm a student, I can't afford a white tie etc, but I do love the music. Having a dress code will seriously defer me from going to classical concerts. I do prefer if the musicians wear formal clothes because it displays a form of professionalism.


Playing music is a rather physical thing, especially under hot stage lights, and I pity the performers who have to do so wearing uncomfortable suits. Especially the soloists and conductor, who are usually sweating like pigs by the time the end a performance.

My suggestion: the whole orchestra dresses in a sort of uniform: jeans and golf shirts with the orchestra's logo on it. Then they all look the same so you don't get distracted by this or that performer's fancy attire, and they will surely be more comfortable and be able to focus on the music.


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## brianvds (May 1, 2013)

Taggart said:


> Full Star Trek Uniform?


Why do they always play boring old strings anyway? Seems to me Data should be an oboist, occasionally helping out on bassoon, with Commander Riker on triangle and Picard on prepared piano. I haven't worked out yet who should be the ship's classical guitarist.


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## Taggart (Feb 14, 2013)

brianvds said:


> Why do they always play boring old strings anyway? Seems to me Data should be an oboist, occasionally helping out on bassoon, with Commander Riker on triangle and Picard on prepared piano. I haven't worked out yet who should be the ship's classical guitarist.












Not always. Riker played the trombone (moderately well) and was into jazz.


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## Piwikiwi (Apr 1, 2011)

brianvds said:


> Playing music is a rather physical thing, especially under hot stage lights, and I pity the performers who have to do so wearing uncomfortable suits. Especially the soloists and conductor, who are usually sweating like pigs by the time the end a performance.
> 
> My suggestion: the whole orchestra dresses in a sort of uniform: jeans and golf shirts with the orchestra's logo on it. Then they all look the same so you don't get distracted by this or that performer's fancy attire, and they will surely be more comfortable and be able to focus on the music.


I agree even if it will look a little weird at first it would probably make the performance a lot better.


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## DrKilroy (Sep 29, 2012)

I am a formalwear aficionado, so I'm sorry - I have to defend white tie to the end.  

Best regards, Dr


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## mstar (Aug 14, 2013)

I do like to see the musicians in formal attire, especially the conductor! A black t-shirt with a suit jacket over it simply will not do. Then again, what really matters is the music. If a favorite conductor or orchestra of mine is not as formal as could be, they will still be my favorites, regardless of the formality of their attire.


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## Garlic (May 3, 2013)

I don't find suits particularly aesthetically appealing myself, plus they look so uncomfortable. How about a bit of colour?


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## DrKilroy (Sep 29, 2012)

A well tailored suit can be very comfortable. 

Bernstein teaches us how we can tastefully introduce some colour to white tie:










Best regards, Dr


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## superhorn (Mar 23, 2010)

I don't think formal attire makes ocncerts "stuffy ". Seeing a lot of musicians dressed that way actully looks spiffy ! Such famous Jazz musicians as Duke Ellington and Cab Calloway and their bands dressed in elegant formal attire when they performed. and nobody ever complained . 
The only reason to change for orchestral musicians to change to simpler outfits would be just for comfort . I wouldn't mind that .


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## Bas (Jul 24, 2012)

Taggart said:


> Full Star Trek Uniform?


Totally offtopic, but:
What a wonderful piece, thanks! I did not knew Brahms string sextet. Brahms was a master of chamber music!


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