# Stockhausen: Kontra-Punkte



## soni (Jul 3, 2018)

Stockhausen's Kontra-Punkte is on the 102nd tier of the Talk Classical community's favorite and most highly recommended works.

Wikipedia article
Sounds in Space article

*Have you heard this before? What do you think of this work?*

This is a really beautiful work, although it may not be obvious on first listen. It starts with quite a jumbled texture, but the instruments disappear one by one while the music increases in emotional intensity. There is a very beautiful section close to the middle of the piece when it feels like the music is coming to terms with its own disappearance, and the piece closes with a brilliant piano solo, having resigned itself to its fate. Someone described the piece as Stockhausen's "Farewell Symphony" which I believe is quite an apt description. I've been listening to a lot of Stockhausen lately and he is the only composer I've heard that could give even Webern a run for his money! This piece is probably among his most accessible works, along with Telemusik perhaps. Highly recommended by me!

Listen on YouTube


----------



## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

It is a fine work. It comes over as very disciplined in a traditional way as well as inventive. Its sound world haunts me long after the piece has been played.


----------



## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

I never thought of it as Stockhausen's more accessible works, since it utilizes total serialism, I only came to appreciate it more recently in his output, after getting use to the serialism technique. I never found it emotional or beautiful. The comparison was to Haydn's Farewell Symphony where the instruments also drop out one by one, but Stockhausen said the piece maintains the same homogeneous structure throughout, a very different angle compared to Haydn.

What I get from the music is the material for the instruments is well placed and balanced, with interesting overlap between short and long notes, registers, and dynamics. There is recurring long pulse (how steady I'm not sure) that is maintained throughout with intermittent quicker runs, between different instruments before it all gets transferred to the piano in the end.

I take back another comment I use to make regarding serial music not translating to the human ear (serial composers do know better than I thought!) The melodic material does not translate to any recognized system, but there is balance as this piece shows.


----------



## fluteman (Dec 7, 2015)

soni said:


> Stockhausen's Kontra-Punkte is on the 102nd tier of the Talk Classical community's favorite and most highly recommended works.
> 
> Wikipedia article
> Sounds in Space article
> ...


Wow. That's a great, technically polished performance by Ensemble Recherche, I hadn't heard it before, thanks for linking to it. The top pros certainly have mastered the mid-20th century modern standards, of which Kontra-Punkte is one. As for the music itself, I think it has long since been absorbed into the cultural mainstream. Echos of its approach have long been heard, for example, in movie and TV soundtracks. The use of all traditional acoustic instruments and no electronics (this is still only 1952, after all), and the nod to Haydn's "Farewell" symphony give it a touch of neoclassical flavor, for me anyway. Thanks for posting about it.


----------



## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Phil loves classical said:


> I never thought of it as Stockhausen's more accessible works, since it utilizes total serialism, . . . What I get from the music is the material for the instruments is well placed and balanced, with interesting overlap between short and long notes, registers, and dynamics. There is recurring long pulse (how steady I'm not sure) that is maintained throughout with intermittent quicker runs, between different instruments before it all gets transferred to the piano in the end.


It certainly doesn't sound like random pointalist music to me, I suppose the pulse and the patterns of textures and timbres help me to get a grip on it in some way. I can think "that sounds the same . . . that sounds different" And yet -- and here's the special thing IMO -- it still sounds so fresh, so free. That makes it a significant achievement I think.

In this sense it seems to me an infinitely superior piece of music compared with structures 1a, written at the same time. The Boulez just makes no concessions to the listener at all -- no form is perceptable. I suppose Stockhausen and Boulez were exchanging ideas at the time.

I'd say superior to Messiaen's Mode de valeurs et d'intensités, for similar reasons.


----------



## Richannes Wrahms (Jan 6, 2014)

I love the piece. Another one I like is Babbitt's Composition for Twelve Instruments Which was composed at around the same years.


----------



## soni (Jul 3, 2018)

Phil loves classical said:


> I never thought of it as Stockhausen's more accessible works


When I made this post I hadn't yet listened to Tierkreis lol
I'll probably make a post about that piece tomorrow


----------



## Jacck (Dec 24, 2017)

first time listen. It is OK, but does not seem to go anywhere. Nothing to distinguish it from countless other similar seralist compositions. It is not Schoenberg-level good.


----------



## fluteman (Dec 7, 2015)

Jacck said:


> first time listen. It is OK, but does not seem to go anywhere. Nothing to distinguish it from countless other similar seralist compositions. It is not Schoenberg-level good.


Whether or not it is as good as say, Schoenberg's Chamber Symphony No. 1, it's worth considering these composers are from two entirely different eras, and it shows in their music. Schoenberg grew up at a time when Brahms and Dvorak were still living and active musicians. Stockhausen came two generations later and lived well into the age of internet classical music discussion forums like this one.


----------



## Lilijana (Dec 17, 2019)

As far as early Stockhausen goes, I tend to prefer the other compositions he wrote in the 1950s. _Gruppen_ is a masterpiece and, to me at least, makes _Kontra-Punkte_ seem like an innocent, naïve little work. Heck, even the first few Klavierstücke sound a bit more confident and forthright to me. I don't dislike this piece, but I kind of have a feeling all the performances I've heard haven't done it much justice.


----------



## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

composer jess said:


> As far as early Stockhausen goes, I tend to prefer the other compositions he wrote in the 1950s. _Gruppen_ is a masterpiece and, to me at least, makes _Kontra-Punkte_ seem like an innocent, naïve little work. Heck, even the first few Klavierstücke sound a bit more confident and forthright to me. I don't dislike this piece, but I kind of have a feeling all the performances I've heard haven't done it much justice.


I really dislike the first few Klavierstucke! The first four or five! It might as well be a cat walking randomly on the piano keyboard.

I've heard Gruppen in concert and it was impressive, I've never tried it at home.


----------



## Lilijana (Dec 17, 2019)

Mandryka said:


> I really dislike the first few Klavierstucke! The first four or five! It might as well be a cat walking randomly on the piano keyboard.
> 
> I've heard Gruppen in concert and it was impressive, I've never tried it at home.


Mmm fair enough. I have a soft spot for that kind of pointillistic piano style.

Have you heard _Farben der Frühe_ by Spahlinger? There's a good record released by NEOS.....the panning on it reminds me of _Gruppen_ but it's for 7 pianos playing in that more pointillistic style.


----------



## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

composer jess said:


> Have you heard _Farben der Frühe_ by Spahlinger? There's a good record released by NEOS.....


Yes, very good music that, and so is the performance and recording!

The thing that helped me enjoy the Klavierstucke most was seeing them performed in a concert, in sequence. They are real virtuoso bravura pieces, just watching the pianist made a great show of it all. It was Aimard who I saw.


----------



## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

composer jess said:


> There's a good record released by NEOS.....the panning on it reminds me of _Gruppen_ but it's for 7 pianos playing in that more pointillistic style.


One problem for me is that I'm only listening in stereo, I'm sure if I had more channels the experience would be different.


----------



## fluteman (Dec 7, 2015)

composer jess said:


> As far as early Stockhausen goes, I tend to prefer the other compositions he wrote in the 1950s. _Gruppen_ is a masterpiece and, to me at least, makes _Kontra-Punkte_ seem like an innocent, naïve little work. Heck, even the first few Klavierstücke sound a bit more confident and forthright to me. I don't dislike this piece, but I kind of have a feeling all the performances I've heard haven't done it much justice.


FWIW, the Ensemble Recherche recording linked by soni above is a vastly better performance than whatever I had heard before.


----------



## Lilijana (Dec 17, 2019)

fluteman said:


> FWIW, the Ensemble Recherche recording linked by soni above is a vastly better performance than whatever I had heard before.


I have heard that one..it's alright


----------

