# I Listen Almost Exclusively to 20th Century Piano Music and I Just Discovered Mahler's 8th Symphony...



## S P Summers (Dec 23, 2016)

The Solti recording, holy mother of God... I'm very picky and I listen to almost nothing with vocals and especially nothing that doesn't feature a piano... Marc-Andre Hamelin and his Hyperion recordings, that is very much my comfort zone...

I stumbled across this Solti recording of Mahler's 8th symphony, and I've listened to it in it's entirely twice today so far. I really need more of this in my life. I'm about to purchase Gergiev's recordings of the Rachmaninov and Scriabin symphonies (I've never heard these symphonies before)- these are two of my absolute favorite piano composers and Gergiev is consistently my favorite conductor.

What else do I need to order immediately? Before discovering this Mahler recording, I was on a huge Szymanowski and Scriabin solo piano kick. If I was blown away by Solti's Mahler 8 and I love Rachmaninov, Scriabin, Medtner, etc- what are the next recordings to add to my PrestoMusic cart?

Much appreciated <3


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## prlj (10 mo ago)

Shostakovich Symphony No. 5
Bruckner Symphony No. 8

I'd list more, but those two alone will be enough to overwhelm.


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## S P Summers (Dec 23, 2016)

prlj said:


> Shostakovich Symphony No. 5
> Bruckner Symphony No. 8
> 
> I'd list more, but those two alone will be enough to overwhelm.


You would be shocked at my ability to consume new music, please give me the full list. I will put these two at the top though. Thank you btw.


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## S P Summers (Dec 23, 2016)

prlj said:


> Shostakovich Symphony No. 5
> Bruckner Symphony No. 8
> 
> I'd list more, but those two alone will be enough to overwhelm.


Any specific recordings for the Shostakovich and Brucker? My go-to is usually Gergiev.


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## prlj (10 mo ago)

S P Summers said:


> Any specific recordings for the Shostakovich and Brucker? My go-to is usually Gergiev.


Not to get political, but I've been avoiding Gergiev lately. Regarding Bruckner, I've always enjoyed Berlin/Karajan.

As for Shosty, I've liked NYPhil/Bernstein, and Leningrad/Mravinksy.


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## Op.123 (Mar 25, 2013)

S P Summers said:


> Any specific recordings for the Shostakovich and Brucker? My go-to is usually Gergiev.


Shostakovich 5 - Bernstein
Bruckner 8 - Wand, preferably with the NDR sinfonieorchester or, if you're not fussed about excellent audio, Furtwangler


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## composingmusic (Dec 16, 2021)

I wonder how you would feel about Sibelius' symphonies? The 7th is probably my personal favourite, but they are all excellent in my opinion.


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## SuperTonic (Jun 3, 2010)

Since you like Mahler 8 maybe try the other symphonies as well. My personal favorites are 2, 3, and 6, but they're all good.


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## composingmusic (Dec 16, 2021)

Also, what 20th century piano works have you been listening to? Perhaps I could recommend more things (both piano and otherwise) based on this!


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

I can think of 3 works from around the same general time as the Mahler 8th which are also large choral & orchestra (for some reason composers seemed to like that back then)...

Sibelius - Kullervo
Vaughan Williams - 1st (Sea) Symphony
Schoenberg - Gurrelieder


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## S P Summers (Dec 23, 2016)

One of the thing I love so much about this Mahler recording are the titanic vocal forces, do any of these symphonies feature gigantic vocal sections like Mahler's 8th? I'm specifically looking for stuff that sounds similar to Mahler's 8th. The closest thing in my regular listening repertoire is Scriabin's Poem of Fire, Op.60 (Ashkenazy recording).


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

S P Summers said:


> One of the thing I love so much about this Mahler recording are the titanic vocal forces, do any of these symphonies feature gigantic vocal sections like Mahler's 8th? I'm specifically looking for stuff that sounds similar to Mahler's 8th. The closest thing in my regular listening repertoire is Scriabin's Poem of Fire, Op.60 (Ashkenazy recording).


Yes, which is why I made my recommendations - probably Schoenberg, Vaughan Williams, Sibelius in descending 'titanic' order!


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

And then there is Havergal Brian's _Gothic Symphony_ (#1)


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## Neo Romanza (May 7, 2013)

Welcome aboard the good train Mahler! Where to go after Mahler's 8th?

Since you're starting to warm up to vocals, here are a few to check out:

Mahler: _Symphonies Nos. 2 & 3_, _Das Lied von der Erde_
Shostakovich: _Symphony No. 13, "Babi Yar"_
Shostakvoich: _Symphony No. 14_
Schoenberg: _Gurrelieder_
Sibelius: _Kullervo_
Szymanowski: _Symphony No. 3, "Song of the Night"_
Penderecki: _Symphony No. 6, "Chinese Songs"_
Penderecki: _Symphony No. 7, "The Gates of Jerusalem"_
Penderecki: _Symphony No. 8 "Lieder der Vergänglichkeit"_
Rachmaninov: _The Bells_
Berlioz: _Roméo et Juliette_
Villa-Lobos: _Symphony No. 10, "Ameríndia"_
Stravinsky: _Symphony of Psalms_
Britten: _Spring Symphony_
Vaughan Williams: _A Sea Symphony_
Weinberg: _Symphony No. 6_ (employs a children's choir to haunting effect)
Weinberg: _Symphony No. 8, "Polish Flowers"_
Schnittke: _Symphonies Nos. 2 & 4_

This should keep you busy for awhile.


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## S P Summers (Dec 23, 2016)

composingmusic said:


> Also, what 20th century piano works have you been listening to? Perhaps I could recommend more things (both piano and otherwise) based on this!


Lately I've been studying Szymanowski's piano sonatas rather intensively (specifically #2 Op.21 and #3, Op.36), additionally I've been going through Hamelin's recordings of the Scriabin and Medtner piano sonatas since I had not heard them in a while.

I have a huge collection of obscure 20th century piano repertoire- Alkan, Barber, Bortkiewicz, Bowen, Busoni, Chisholm, Dohnanyi, Feinberg, Godowsky, Ives, Ligeti, Medtner, Messiaen, Moszkowski, Paderewski, Rautavaara, Reger, Roslavets, Rzewski, Scharwenka, Scriabin, Sorabji, Szymanowski, Thalberg (not 20th century I know)...

Upon a quick scan of my library those are some of the more obscure names that stand out who I listen to regularly, if you're able to recommend new composers/specific recordings that I should pick up, I will be sure to buy them.


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## S P Summers (Dec 23, 2016)

Becca said:


> I can think of 3 works from around the same general time as the Mahler 8th which are also large choral & orchestra (for some reason composers seemed to like that back then)...
> 
> Sibelius - Kullervo
> Vaughan Williams - 1st (Sea) Symphony
> Schoenberg - Gurrelieder


Thank you so much


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## S P Summers (Dec 23, 2016)

Neo Romanza said:


> Welcome aboard the good train Mahler! Where to go after Mahler's 8th?
> 
> Since you're starting to warm up to vocals, here are a few to check out:
> 
> ...


Fantastic, I have some shopping to do. Thank you.


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

S P Summers said:


> Thank you so much


This will give you a taste of the RVW...


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## S P Summers (Dec 23, 2016)

S P Summers said:


> Fantastic, I have some shopping to do. Thank you. Many of these composers are right up my alley-





Becca said:


> Yes, which is why I made my recommendations - probably Schoenberg, Vaughan Williams, Sibelius in descending 'titanic' order!


What recordings do you recommend for Vaughan Williams? I know Hyperion has several versions, Hyperion is usually my favorite but they're not always the best option IMO.


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## S P Summers (Dec 23, 2016)

Becca said:


> This will give you a taste of the RVW...


Looks like you read my mind, thank you!


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

As to recordings, I would suggest Mark Elder/Halle or Vernon Handley/Royal Liverpool Phil.


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## Neo Romanza (May 7, 2013)

S P Summers said:


> What recordings do you recommend for Vaughan Williams? I know Hyperion has several versions, Hyperion is usually my favorite but they're not always the best option IMO.


You didn't ask me, but Hyperion only has one recording of Vaughan Williams' _A Sea Symphony_ in their catalog. It's with Brabbins and the BBC Scottish SO and while it's a decent performance, it's eclipsed by the much earlier Boult on EMI (Warner). Trust me on this one:






I don't like posting YouTube videos, because the fidelity is often lacking, but at least you'll get an idea of this Boult performance.


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## Hogwash (5 mo ago)

Beethoven 9


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## Animal the Drummer (Nov 14, 2015)

S P Summers said:


> The Solti recording, holy mother of God... I'm very picky and I listen to almost nothing with vocals and especially nothing that doesn't feature a piano... Marc-Andre Hamelin and his Hyperion recordings, that is very much my comfort zone...
> 
> I stumbled across this Solti recording of Mahler's 8th symphony, and I've listened to it in it's entirely twice today so far. I really need more of this in my life. I'm about to purchase Gergiev's recordings of the Rachmaninov and Scriabin symphonies (I've never heard these symphonies before)- these are two of my absolute favorite piano composers and Gergiev is consistently my favorite conductor.
> 
> ...


With occasional exceptions (Busoni, Dohnanyi, Scharwenka) my taste could scarcely be more different from yours, so I can't help you with recommendations, but posts like this are a major reason why I come here. Welcome to TC, and enjoy.


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## composingmusic (Dec 16, 2021)

A few more works that use chorus that come to mind: 

Ravel: Daphnis et Chloé
Szymanowski: Stabat Mater
Holst: The Planets



S P Summers said:


> I have a huge collection of obscure 20th century piano repertoire- Alkan, Barber, Bortkiewicz, Bowen, Busoni, Chisholm, Dohnanyi, Feinberg, Godowsky, Ives, Ligeti, Medtner, Messiaen, Moszkowski, Paderewski, Rautavaara, Reger, Roslavets, Rzewski, Scharwenka, Scriabin, Sorabji, Szymanowski, Thalberg (not 20th century I know)...


That's a really cool collection of composers there! A few names that do come to mind: Gubaidulina, Bartok, Ustvolskaya, Silvestrov, Takemitsu. Another possibility is to look at other composers who surround the ones you've just mentioned: for instance, Messiaen and Rautavaara were both teachers.


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

From my viewpoint there are many good recommendations above but also one or two rather over the top monsters (perhaps because your moment was prompted by the gargantuan Mahler 8 - which is great music and not really a monster). Personally I would stick to the composers from the above who you are more familiar with or who you know to be great. I do think you should listen to more Mahler - the 9th? the 2nd? - and (looking at your piano tastes) why not some orchestral Ligeti and Messiaen? For the latter you could go for the _Turangalila Symphony _or, if you wanted something more "typical", _Des canyons aux étoiles_. If you wanted to stay with the Faust theme there is Schumann's Faust Scenes (Britten's recording is great). And, talking of Britten, the War Requiem?


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## S P Summers (Dec 23, 2016)

Hogwash said:


> Beethoven 9


I'm intimately familiar with this fantastic symphony, I grew up with the Karajan recording. I do appreciate the recommendation.


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## S P Summers (Dec 23, 2016)

Animal the Drummer said:


> With occasional exceptions (Busoni, Dohnanyi, Scharwenka) my taste could scarcely be more different from yours, so I can't help you with recommendations, but posts like this are a major reason why I come here. Welcome to TC, and enjoy.


If you like Busoni, Dohnanyi, and Scharwenka, you should like York Bowen too. Pick up Danny Driver's album of the piano concerti if you don't have it already. Bowen wrote phenomenal piano sonatas too, Hough recorded the 5th with Hyperion which is a treasure, and Danny Driver recorded the complete Bowen sonatas also on Hyperion. Def recommend if you're into late romantic piano concerti.


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## S P Summers (Dec 23, 2016)

composingmusic said:


> A few more works that use chorus that come to mind:
> 
> Ravel: Daphnis et Chloé
> Szymanowski: Stabat Mater
> ...


Beautiful, I'll add these. I'm not familiar with four of those composers you mentioned, I'll certainly be looking for piano concerti, sonatas, and etudes from each of them.


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## S P Summers (Dec 23, 2016)

Enthusiast said:


> From my viewpoint there are many good recommendations above but also one or two rather over the top monsters (perhaps because your moment was prompted by the gargantuan Mahler 8 - which is great music and not really a monster). Personally I would stick to the composers from the above who you are more familiar with or who you know to be great. I do think you should listen to more Mahler - the 9th? the 2nd? - and (looking at your piano tastes) why not some orchestral Ligeti and Messiaen? For the latter you could go for the _Turangalila Symphony _or, if you wanted something more "typical", _Des canyons aux étoiles_. If you wanted to stay with the Faust theme there is Schumann's Faust Scenes (Britten's recording is great). And, talking of Britten, the War Requiem?


 "Over the top monster" is exactly what I love... I am certainly going to look for some orchestral Messiaen, I meant to do that a while ago. @Becca recommended the Vaughan Williams Sea Symphony and Schoenberg's Gurrelieder- they were perfect recommendations. I'm looking for as much of that type of thing as possible- the bigger the better, the more over the top the better.

I'm familiar with the Turangalila, I'm actually going to attend a live recording by the Toronto Symphony Orchestra with Marc-Andre Hamelin playing the piano section in May. They're recording it for commercial release I believe, I can't wait.


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## S P Summers (Dec 23, 2016)

Enthusiast said:


> From my viewpoint there are many good recommendations above but also one or two rather over the top monsters (perhaps because your moment was prompted by the gargantuan Mahler 8 - which is great music and not really a monster). Personally I would stick to the composers from the above who you are more familiar with or who you know to be great. I do think you should listen to more Mahler - the 9th? the 2nd? - and (looking at your piano tastes) why not some orchestral Ligeti and Messiaen? For the latter you could go for the _Turangalila Symphony _or, if you wanted something more "typical", _Des canyons aux étoiles_. If you wanted to stay with the Faust theme there is Schumann's Faust Scenes (Britten's recording is great). And, talking of Britten, the War Requiem?


What do you suggest for orchestral and/or choral Messian and Ligeti? Adding the Britten War Requiem, that's been in my PrestoMusic wishlist for a while.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

I think you'll enjoy Szymanowski's symphonies 2-4. And no.4 features a piano soloist. Also his music for violin and piano is superb!


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## composingmusic (Dec 16, 2021)

S P Summers said:


> "Over the top monster" is exactly what I love... I am certainly going to look for some orchestral Messiaen, I meant to do that a while ago. @Becca recommended the Vaughan Williams Sea Symphony and Schoenberg's Gurrelieder- they were perfect recommendations. I'm looking for as much of that type of thing as possible- the bigger the better, the more over the top the better.
> 
> I'm familiar with the Turangalila, I'm actually going to attend a live recording by the Toronto Symphony Orchestra with Marc-Andre Hamelin playing the piano section in May. They're recording it for commercial release I believe, I can't wait.


If you want over the top, two more pieces that come to mind include Messiaen's opera _St François d'Assise_ and Ligeti's opera _Le Grand Macabre_. As for music that incorporates both piano and orchestra, _Des Canyons aux Étoiles_ is one of my favourite Messiaen works. Ligeti has a really good piano concerto as well.


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## Lisztianwagner (2 mo ago)

All the pieces already recommended are excellent, you can't go wrong with them. If you like Mahler, I would also suggest Zemlinsky's _Die Seejungfrau_ and _Lyric Symphony_.


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

S P Summers said:


> "Over the top monster" is exactly what I love... I am certainly going to look for some orchestral Messiaen, I meant to do that a while ago. @Becca recommended the Vaughan Williams Sea Symphony and Schoenberg's Gurrelieder- they were perfect recommendations. I'm looking for as much of that type of thing as possible- the bigger the better, the more over the top the better.
> 
> I'm familiar with the Turangalila, I'm actually going to attend a live recording by the Toronto Symphony Orchestra with Marc-Andre Hamelin playing the piano section in May. They're recording it for commercial release I believe, I can't wait.


OK, that's all good! I guess I had the Brian Gothic Symphony in my mind: not music to my ears!


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

S P Summers said:


> What do you suggest for orchestral and/or choral Messian and Ligeti? Adding the Britten War Requiem, that's been in my PrestoMusic wishlist for a while.


Well, you are OK with Turangalîla. The other Messiaen piece I mentioned was _Des canyons aux étoiles_. I have several recordings and am not sure I could choose between them. Chung is reliable in this repertoire.

For Ligeti there's the requiem (you might know it from 2001: A Space Odyssey) - Nott's recording is fine as is the one by Eotvos - or you could try _Lontano_ (the record conducted by George Benjamin is a favourite CD of mine) or perhaps the concertos.


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## golfer72 (Jan 27, 2018)

Since you like 20th century piano music (also one of my main interests) I would suggest Arnold Bax's 4 Piano sonatas. Bax of course was known mainly for his orchestral works but was a very accomplished Pianist and wrote very well for the keyboard. Many shorter keyboard works as well


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## S P Summers (Dec 23, 2016)

golfer72 said:


> Since you like 20th century piano music (also one of my main interests) I would suggest Arnold Bax's 4 Piano sonatas. Bax of course was known mainly for his orchestral works but was a very accomplished Pianist and wrote very well for the keyboard. Many shorter keyboard works as well


Awesome, I haven't heard them yet. What else do you recommend for obscure 20th century piano repertoire? I listed a handful of piano composers who I listen to regularly in an earlier post and I own almost everything that Hyperion has released in this genre, so please give me your list of mandatory purchases.


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## S P Summers (Dec 23, 2016)

It's a start...


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## S P Summers (Dec 23, 2016)

What Lutoslawski recordings should I pick up? I only have the piano concerto, I'm entirely unfamiliar with the rest of his catalogue.


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

Do let us know what you think of of the _Sea Symphony_ & _Gurrelieder_ whenever you get a chance to listen.

Two other suggestions are Mahler's _Das Klagende Lied_, an early work, also Janacek's _Glagolitic Mass_


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## S P Summers (Dec 23, 2016)

Becca said:


> Do let us know what you think of of the _Sea Symphony_ & _Gurrelieder_ whenever you get a chance to listen.
> 
> Two other suggestions are Mahler's _Das Klagende Lied_, an early work, also Janacek's _Glagolitic Mass_


Most certainly, I only previewed these works last night but I'll be giving them both a thorough study over the next week or so. I will say that as wonderful as the Vaughan Williams is, I DO prefer the German language singing in the Mahler + Schoenberg. I prefer to not understand the words, I think it helps me appreciate the voice as an instrument more.

I'm looking forward to diving into everything you've recommended to me though, all of this music is absolutely wonderful.


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## S P Summers (Dec 23, 2016)

Becca said:


> Do let us know what you think of of the _Sea Symphony_ & _Gurrelieder_ whenever you get a chance to listen.
> 
> Two other suggestions are Mahler's _Das Klagende Lied_, an early work, also Janacek's _Glagolitic Mass_


Which Gurrelieder recording should I pick up? I was listening to Ozawa last night.


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

S P Summers said:


> Which Gurrelieder recording should I pick up? I was listening to Ozawa last night.


Probably the Chailly although the Rattle is also very good.


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## Neo Romanza (May 7, 2013)

S P Summers said:


> Which Gurrelieder recording should I pick up? I was listening to Ozawa last night.


You didn't ask me, but you could flip a coin between Ozawa and Chailly. Both have a killer cast of vocalists and both conductors have the full measure of this work. As a third choice, Sinopoli would also be a fine option.

I see you already listened to the Ozawa, what did you think? If you liked the performance, then most definitely consider buying it.


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

S P Summers said:


> Which Gurrelieder recording should I pick up? I was listening to Ozawa last night.


Regarding the Glagolitic Mass, be sure to find a recent recording as the long time standard score (1928 revision) was somewhat simplified (for want of a better term) to make it easier to perform. There have since (1992) been a couple of new versions which get closer to Janacek's intent. The Netopil and the Mackerras/Danish RSO are representative of each new version.


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## Neo Romanza (May 7, 2013)

S P Summers said:


> It's a start...


What's in your queue?


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## Neo Romanza (May 7, 2013)

Becca said:


> Regarding the Glagolitic Mass, be sure to find a recent recording as the long time standard score (1928 revision) was somewhat simplified (for want of a better term) to make it easier to perform. There have since (1992) been a couple of new versions which get closer to Janacek's intent. The Netopil and the Mackerras/Danish RSO are representative of each new version.


Versions of the Janáček _Glagolitic Mass_ aside, @S P Summers would do well to pick up the Ančerl recording on Supraphon. It's my reference recording for this work. Two other favorites are Tilson Thomas on Sony and Mackerras on Supraphon. You really can't go wrong with any of these, but if you only would like to buy one go with Ančerl (which in the Ančerl Gold Edition, it's coupled with another reference Janáček performance of mine: _Taras Bulba_).


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

While I had long been familiar with the standard 1928 version, it was quite a shock the first time I heard a performance of the 1992 revision, in some parts it sounded like a very different work, and much more interesting. I can certainly see why it would have been considered difficult in 1927 and why the 1928 revision made it easier to perform but now, as good as some performances are, I wouldn't want to go back.


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## Neo Romanza (May 7, 2013)

Becca said:


> While I had long been familiar with the standard 1928 version, it was quite a shock the first time I heard a performance of the 1992 revision, in some parts it sounded like a very different work, and much more interesting. I can certainly see why it would have been considered difficult in 1927 and why the 1928 revision made it easier to perform but now, as good as some performances are, I wouldn't want to go back.


I can understand your sentiments, but I imprinted on the 1928 revision and there's no shaking it --- I own both the Netopil and Mackerras recordings you mentioned and they just didn't do much for me. I'm not sure if it was the performances or hearing the original version. Whatever the case may be, @S P Summers will have to decide for himself.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

S P Summers said:


> What Lutoslawski recordings should I pick up? I only have the piano concerto, I'm entirely unfamiliar with the rest of his catalogue.


Symphonies 2 & 3, and the cello concerto would be my top choices. I prefer the composer at the podium. His performances have more intensity. Try to locate the CDs, Essential Lutoslawski on Philips, and the 3 CD set on EMI. The 2 CD Essential set is on eBay for 15 dollars. It has the cello concerto, and 3rd symphony, plus a bunch of other good pieces. The Lutoslawski series on Naxos conducted by Wit is also pretty good. BTW, Wit's recording of Mahler 8 is superb!


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## catface (Jul 26, 2021)

For 20th Century Piano:

In addition to the other Polish composers you listed, have you heard Bacewicz's music for the instrument? It's not a major part of her output but she wrote a very good sonata and a nice set of etudes, IMO. I also noticed that Hindemith was missing from your list -- you could try his sonatas and his Ludus Tonalis. Martinu also has a wealth of piano music that's very good, and you should check out Stravinsky's Three Scenes from Petrushka if you haven't heard it.

You didn't list a lot of atonal/serial composers -- if you don't care for Schoenberg & Co. you could try their compatriot Krenek or else Italians Petrassi and Dallapiccola or Americans Sessions and Carter (and Cowell and Antheil and Ornstein and Crawford Seeger for an earlier American flavor).


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## catface (Jul 26, 2021)

And since people are discussing the Glagolitic Mass it's worth pointing out Janacek has some nice piano pieces as well.


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## Neo Romanza (May 7, 2013)

catface said:


> And since people are discussing the Glagolitic Mass it's worth pointing out Janacek has some nice piano pieces as well.


Yes, but remember that the OP isn't asking about solo piano music. He's coming from that world trying to find his footing in the orchestral world.


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## catface (Jul 26, 2021)

S P Summers said:


> What else do you recommend for obscure 20th century piano repertoire?


OP has solicited piano music recommendations. I don't know if any of mine will be obscure enough, and maybe that discussion belongs on its own thread, but my comment didn't come from nowhere.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

I would give a listen to Wellesz's piano music. There's an excellent 3 disc set on Capriccio that I have. Wellesz played piano his entire life so he knew how to write for the instrument.


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## golfer72 (Jan 27, 2018)

S P Summers said:


> Awesome, I haven't heard them yet. What else do you recommend for obscure 20th century piano repertoire? I listed a handful of piano composers who I listen to regularly in an earlier post and I own almost everything that Hyperion has released in this genre, so please give me your list of mandatory purchases.


I suggest Josef Suk ( died in 1935) "Things Lived And Dreamed" for solo piano among other works. All his output for solo piano fits on two discs. Chandos has a good one


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## S P Summers (Dec 23, 2016)

Becca said:


> Do let us know what you think of of the _Sea Symphony_ & _Gurrelieder_ whenever you get a chance to listen.
> 
> Two other suggestions are Mahler's _Das Klagende Lied_, an early work, also Janacek's _Glagolitic Mass_


Okay, I've gone through the Sea Symphony a few times now (Elder/Halle + Oramo). This would be one of my favorite works of all time, except for one thing that really bothers me- it's that damn English singing. Especially after that SPECTACULAR introduction, I did find it quite disappointing when that incredible intro developed into something that reminds me of Gilbert & Sullivan (I have a very difficult time with English language vocal solos- particularly the baritone). I'm not trying to bash the spirit of the work, overall I do enjoy it, the music is absolutely phenomenal; I just find myself REALLY wishing that all of the vocals were sung in German.

I haven't listened to Gurrelieder in it's entirety yet, I had listened to about an hour of it immediately after the Vaughan Williams and it was nearly 4am so I had to get to bed. I did find myself wishing that the chorus was featured more in the first hour, there is a ton of solo material (which I do enjoy since I can't understand the words and can actually focus on the musicality of the vocal solos), and overall I do really enjoy this work so far. The music itself is incredibly interesting.

I will be getting around to the Janacek and Mahler soon.


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## S P Summers (Dec 23, 2016)

Neo Romanza said:


> You didn't ask me, but you could flip a coin between Ozawa and Chailly. Both have a killer cast of vocalists and both conductors have the full measure of this work. As a third choice, Sinopoli would also be a fine option.
> 
> I see you already listened to the Ozawa, what did you think? If you liked the performance, then most definitely consider buying it.


Ozawa is in my cart and I'll be adding Chailly too, it never hurts to own more recordings.


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## S P Summers (Dec 23, 2016)

Becca said:


> Regarding the Glagolitic Mass, be sure to find a recent recording as the long time standard score (1928 revision) was somewhat simplified (for want of a better term) to make it easier to perform. There have since (1992) been a couple of new versions which get closer to Janacek's intent. The Netopil and the Mackerras/Danish RSO are representative of each new version.


Adding them. I was actually listening to Beethoven's Op.123 Missa Solemnis last night (the newer Gardiner recording with the Montiverdi choir). Obviously much older than what I was asking for, but I was thoroughly enjoying it; looks like these masses could be right up my alley too. The Glagolithic Mass is at the top of my list right now.


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

For a _Missa Solemnis_, the Klemperer is great, as is a more recent one with Daniel Reuss and the Orchestra of the 18th century. Not quite as old a piece is the Berlioz _Requiem_ where I can recommend the Paul McCreesh/Wroclaw and the very recent Pappano/Concertgebouw.


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## S P Summers (Dec 23, 2016)

Neo Romanza said:


> What's in your queue?


Well I already bought Vaughan Williams - Sea Symphony (Elder/Halle)

This is what I'll be purchasing gradually over the next few weeks-

Schoenberg - Gurrelieder (Ozawa)
Sibelius - Kullervo, Op.7 (Davis/LSO)
Brian - Symphony No.1 "Gothic" (Brabbins/Hyperion)
Holst - The Planets (Rattle/Berlin)
Messiaen - Des Canyons aux Étoiles (Loriod/Copenhagen)
Zemlinsky - Die Seejungfrau (Liverpool/Petrenko)
Janáček - Glagolitic Mass (Mackerras/Chandos)
Janáček - Glagolitic Mass (Ancerl)
Beethoven - Missa Solemnis, Op.123 (Gardiner/SDG/Montiverdi Choir)
Szymanowski - Symphony #1 (Gergiev/LSO)
Szymanowski - Symphony #2 (Gergiev/LSO)
Szymanowski - Symphony #3 (Rattle/Birmingham)
Szymanowski - Symphony #4 (Rattle/Birmingham)
Szymanowski - Stabat Matar, Op.53 (Rattle/Birmingham)
Szymanowski - Harnasie, Op.55 (Rattle/Birmingham)
Ravel - Daphnis et Chloé (Roth/Harmonia Mundi)
Charles Ives - Complete Symphonies (Dudamel/DG)
Stravinsky - Symphony of Psalms (Stravinsky/CBC)
Stravinsky - The Firebird (Gergiev/Philips)
Stravinsky - Petrushka (Gergiev/Mariinsky)
Stravinsky - Rite of Spring (Gergiev/Philips)
Rachmaninov - Complete Symphonies (Gergiev/LSO)
Scriabin - Complete Symphonies (Gergiev/LSO Live)


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## composingmusic (Dec 16, 2021)

That list looks amazing!

Something that just came to mind, which I don't see on this list, is both of the Ravel piano concertos – the Ravel G Major and the Concerto for Left Hand. Highly recommend both!


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## S P Summers (Dec 23, 2016)

Neo Romanza said:


> Shostakovich: _Symphony No. 13, "Babi Yar"_
> Shostakvoich: _Symphony No. 14_


I went to purchase these, apparently these are the ONLY TWO Shostakovich symphonies that are not available for purchase on PrestoMusic from Gergiev's Mariinsky cycle... This is always the conductor I look for in this type of repertoire, can you suggest a good alternative to Gergiev for these two symphonies? It looks like he HAS recorded them but they're not available to purchase for some reason.


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## S P Summers (Dec 23, 2016)

composingmusic said:


> That list looks amazing!
> 
> Something that just came to mind, which I don't see on this list, is both of the Ravel piano concertos – the Ravel G Major and the Concerto for Left Hand. Highly recommend both!


The Michelangeli recording has been a staple of my listening repertoire for years. I like Steven Osborne's recording with Hyperion for the left-hand concerto (which I actually might prefer over the concerto #1, believe it or not)


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## S P Summers (Dec 23, 2016)

catface said:


> And since people are discussing the Glagolitic Mass it's worth pointing out Janacek has some nice piano pieces as well.


I have Stephen Hough's Hyperion album of Janáček's Piano Sonata and something called "On the Overgrown Path", it's paired with some Scriabin poems. I'll be picking up that Janáček mass today probably, what other Janáček piano recordings should I pick up?


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## S P Summers (Dec 23, 2016)

catface said:


> For 20th Century Piano:
> 
> In addition to the other Polish composers you listed, have you heard Bacewicz's music for the instrument? It's not a major part of her output but she wrote a very good sonata and a nice set of etudes, IMO. I also noticed that Hindemith was missing from your list -- you could try his sonatas and his Ludus Tonalis. Martinu also has a wealth of piano music that's very good, and you should check out Stravinsky's Three Scenes from Petrushka if you haven't heard it.
> 
> You didn't list a lot of atonal/serial composers -- if you don't care for Schoenberg & Co. you could try their compatriot Krenek or else Italians Petrassi and Dallapiccola or Americans Sessions and Carter (and Cowell and Antheil and Ornstein and Crawford Seeger for an earlier American flavor).


Noted, thank you. I'll be busy for a while, lol. I LOVE Leo Ornstein btw, I think I own pretty much every Ornstein solo piano album that's ever been released.


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## S P Summers (Dec 23, 2016)

starthrower said:


> I would give a listen to Wellesz's piano music. There's an excellent 3 disc set on Capriccio that I have. Wellesz played piano his entire life so he knew how to write for the instrument.


Really appreciate this. I struggle to find pianist-composers who I haven't heard of before, you guys are giving me some TRULY obscure recommendations, I love it.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

S P Summers said:


> Really appreciate this. I struggle to find pianist-composers who I haven't heard of before, you guys are giving me some TRULY obscure recommendations, I love it.


Egon Wellesz was Austrian. A contemporary of Schoenberg. He also composed nine symphonies which were recorded by CPO. There is a box set.


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## S P Summers (Dec 23, 2016)

S P Summers said:


> Well I already bought Vaughan Williams - Sea Symphony (Elder/Halle)
> 
> This is what I'll be purchasing gradually over the next few weeks-
> 
> ...


Almost forgot-

Mahler - Das Klagende Lied (Boulez/DG)

Now I'm looking for a recording of the Berlioz Requiem- any suggestions?


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## maestro267 (Jul 25, 2009)

London SO/Colin Davis. Either of them, the 60s or the more recent one (well, recorded in 2011) from St Paul's Cathedral.


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

S P Summers said:


> Almost forgot-
> 
> Mahler - Das Klagende Lied (Boulez/DG)
> 
> Now I'm looking for a recording of the Berlioz Requiem- any suggestions?


See my two recommendations above. The Pappano recording got a couple of 'record of the year' nominations on MusicWeb Int'l


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## S P Summers (Dec 23, 2016)

Becca said:


> See my two recommendations above. The Pappano recording got a couple of 'record of the year' nominations on MusicWeb Int'l


I picked up the Pappano recording of the Berlioz Requiem and I've listened to it in it's entirety twice since my last comment... I love it so much. Also bought one of the aforementioned Janacek recordings, Ozawa's Gurrelieder, and I bought that Gardiner recording of Beethoven's Op.123 as well.

I am going to grab Britten's War Requiem too, I don't want to totally write off music just because there are English vocals, perhaps I can get used to it over time.


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

S P Summers said:


> I picked up the Pappano recording of the Berlioz Requiem and I've listened to it in it's entirety twice since my last comment... I love it so much. Also bought one of the aforementioned Janacek recordings, Ozawa's Gurrelieder, and I bought that Gardiner recording of Beethoven's Op.123 as well.
> 
> I am going to grab Britten's War Requiem too, I don't want to totally write off music just because there are English vocals, perhaps I can get used to it over time.


Here is a slightly off-the-wall suggestion, try George Lloyd's _Symphonic Mass_ from 1993. No need to worry, it's Latin!


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## S P Summers (Dec 23, 2016)

Becca said:


> Here is a slightly off-the-wall suggestion, try George Lloyd's _Symphonic Mass_ from 1993. No need to worry, it's Latin!


Beautiful, adding it. Also, I'm about halfway through Part 1 of Ozawa's Gurrelieder right now- this is the first time I've blasted it on my living room sound system at nuclear bomb volume levels, I've been having much more fun with it this time around compared to the last time I was listening to it with headphones on the verge of passing out because it was almost dawn.


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## Neo Romanza (May 7, 2013)

S P Summers said:


> Well I already bought Vaughan Williams - Sea Symphony (Elder/Halle)
> 
> This is what I'll be purchasing gradually over the next few weeks-
> 
> ...


Why so much Gergiev? He's a decent conductor, but in Stravinsky, Scriabin, Rachmaninov and Szymanowski there so many better conductors in this music, IMHO. For Stravinsky, Stravinsky's own recordings on Columbia are top-notch, but then there is Chailly, Salonen, Boulez, Bernstein et. al. who done some excellent work in this music. For Scriabin, the set to beat (at least, for me) is Muti/Philadelphia Orchestra on EMI (Warner). For Rachmaninov, Ashkenazy has an incredibly fine cycle with the Royal Concertgebouw. Previn/LSO on EMI (Warner) is also quite fine (Svetlanov would be another fine choice). For Szymanowski, the first two symphonies have been superbly recorded under Antoni Wit on Naxos (in fact, his whole Szymanowski series on this label is worth checking out).

Anyway, just my two cents.


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## haziz (Sep 15, 2017)

S P Summers said:


> I went to purchase these, apparently these are the ONLY TWO Shostakovich symphonies that are not available for purchase on PrestoMusic from Gergiev's Mariinsky cycle... This is always the conductor I look for in this type of repertoire, can you suggest a good alternative to Gergiev for these two symphonies? It looks like he HAS recorded them but they're not available to purchase for some reason.



I would recommend Barshai's cycle with the WDR SO available in a reissue by Brilliant Classics. You get Shostakovich's entire symphony cycle for a pittance, and IMHO better than Gergiev's.


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## S P Summers (Dec 23, 2016)

Neo Romanza said:


> Why so much Gergiev? He's a decent conductor, but in Stravinsky, Scriabin, Rachmaninov and Szymanowski there so many better conductors in this music, IMHO. For Stravinsky, Stravinsky's own recordings on Columbia are top-notch, but then there is Chailly, Salonen, Boulez, Bernstein et. al. who done some excellent work in this music. For Scriabin, the set to beat (at least, for me) is Muti/Philadelphia Orchestra on EMI (Warner). For Rachmaninov, Ashkenazy has an incredibly fine cycle with the Royal Concertgebouw. Previn/LSO on EMI (Warner) is also quite fine (Svetlanov would be another fine choice). For Szymanowski, the first two symphonies have been superbly recorded under Antoni Wit on Naxos (in fact, his whole Szymanowski series on this label is worth checking out).
> 
> Anyway, just my two cents.


One thing that is very important to me is high quality audio engineering and modern audio quality. I listen to SOME historical piano recordings, but if I'm listening to orchestral music; I don't want so much of it to be lost because of poor audio quality. I have many recordings that go back to around 1960 and sound phenomenal, I'm certainly open to older recordings but they NEED to be completely clear. The Geza Anda recordings of the Bartok piano concerti are a great example- they were recorded in 1960 and it sounds like modern engineering, but historical recordings with high quality audio are difficult to find.

I just default to Gergiev (especially for Russian music) if I have no other recordings that were specifically recommended. I've never been disappointed in any disc I've bought where Gergiev was the conductor, and the album that made me a huge Gergiev fan was his Scheherazade with the Kirov orchestra on Philips - Rimsky Korsakov: Scheherazade

Also, Gergiev's recording of Rachmaninov's 2nd concerto played by Denis Matsuev is my favorite recording of this concerto (it replaced the legendary Wild/Horenstein recording from 1962 as my previous favorite). That Rach 2 recording was poorly reviewed (paired with the Prokofiev #2, which was extremely highly regarded). The finale in the Rach 2 was played poorly, but overall that recording of the Rach 2 ticks all of the boxes of what I'm looking for in this type of music (except the ending)- extremely piano forward, extremely loud, right in your face- again, I'm not looking for subtlety with this type of music.

I realize the Gergiev symphonies I've added are mostly LSO, but I love the TREMENDOUS amount of energy that Gergiev commands from his orchestra. His recordings sound like the world is coming to an end when I blast it on my living room sound system. That is generally what I'm looking for.

I'm also aware that some people have boycotted Gergiev's recordings as some sort of political statement (I'm apolitical, I don't know and I don't care why this is the case)- but I certainly never want to deprive myself of great recordings just because people don't like the politics of the conductor.

I didn't realize there were recordings of Stravinsky conducting The Firebird, Petrushka, and The Rite of Spring. The Gergiev recordings are highly regarded, but I'll go for the Stravinsky as long as the audio quality is comparable to that of the modern Gergiev recordings.

I'll add the Muti recordings of the Scriabin- it's modern audio quality, correct?

I'll add the Ashkenazy Rachmaninov too, I usually don't like Ashkenazy (as a pianist)- although his recordings of the Scriabin Piano Concerto and the Poem of Fire with the London Philharmonic are THE definitive recordings of each work, IMO.

Interesting about the Szymanowski, Naxos usually misses for me but then they have the occasional absolute GEM of an album. I'll add those too.


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## S P Summers (Dec 23, 2016)

haziz said:


> I would recommend Barshai's cycle with the WDR SO available in a reissue by Brilliant Classics. You get Shostakovich's entire symphony cycle for a pittance, and IMHO better than Gergiev's.


I'm not really looking for value, would you choose this recording if every single recording in existence cost the same amount to purchase? I want quality, I want the very best. I'm always skeptical about value albums but I never write them off either, I try to give everything a chance.


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## S P Summers (Dec 23, 2016)

Becca said:


> Here is a slightly off-the-wall suggestion, try George Lloyd's _Symphonic Mass_ from 1993. No need to worry, it's Latin!


This is my favorite thing I've heard since the Mahler 8. I listened to it in it's entirety 3 times last night. The climax in the Sanctus & Benedictus section might be the most incredible thing I've ever heard in my life. My other favorite recording from my round of purchases yesterday was the Janáček Glagolitic Mass (Mackerras/Dutch National Symphony Orchestra).

HOLY MOTHER OF GOD. The George Lloyd Symphonic Mass and the Janáček Glagolitic Mass- PURE SONIC ARMAGEDDON. GOD DAMN!

Love, love, LOVE THEM BOTH SO MUCH!

What is the loudest, most over the top, highest energy performance of the Glagolitic Mass? This 2nd Mackerras had SO MUCH ENERGY, does the Ančerl recording or the original Mackerras recording have even more energy than the recording with the Dutch National Symphony Orchestra?

Anything similar to the George Lloyd Symphonic Mass and Janáček Glagolitic Mass- I will absolutely devour. Please give me a list of everything you know of similar to these two incredible works. @Becca @Neo Romanza


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

When it comes to the Janacek, the 1928 revision simplified things and took away some of that energy which is why I find the 1992+ revisions (un-revisions??) so much better.


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

The early Berlioz _Messe Solennelle_, also the _Te Deum_
The Bruckner _Te Deum_
Ohh ... Carl Orff _Carmina Burana_!!
Poulenc _Gloria_
Prokofiev _Ivan the Terrible_ ... but go for Christopher Palmer's concert scenario on Chandos

On a somewhat different style, the Busoni piano concerto, it does have a mens' choir but only the last movement, but I love the 4th movement tarantella


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## S P Summers (Dec 23, 2016)

Becca said:


> The early Berlioz _Messe Solennelle_, also the _Te Deum_
> The Bruckner _Te Deum_
> Ohh ... Carl Orff _Carmina Burana_!!
> Poulenc _Gloria_
> ...


The John Ogden recording of the Busoni Piano Concerto with the Royal Philharmonic is a staple of my listening repertoire. The introduction of this concerto leading up to the entrance of the piano with the C major chords is absolutely spectacular, it's one of my very favorite musical introductions of all time. It was also one of the first pieces that made me appreciate the potential of vocals (despite having difficulty with vocal music in the past).

I am a massive fan of Marc-Andre Hamelin (as has been established), I do enjoy his Busoni recording on Hyperion; but the Ogden recording of the Busoni piano concerto is the definitive recording and also one of the very greatest recordings of the 20th century, in my opinion.

The Ogden recording of Busoni's piano concerto, the Karajan recording of Beethoven's 9th (DG, 1963), and the London Philharmonic recording of Scriabin's Poem of Fire, Op.60 with Ashkenazy- I believe these were the only works I listened to with any regularity that featured vocal sections.

I feel like the Mahler 8 has opened up an entire new universe, and after hearing the Janáček and George Lloyd masses yesterday; I can't believe what I've been missing out on for all of these years.


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## S P Summers (Dec 23, 2016)

When I bought the Janáček yesterday, it was paired with something called "Kodály: Psalmus hungaricus, Op. 13" (Mackerras/Dutch National Radio Symphony Orchestra).

I accidentally purchased the Janáček as a standalone work which cost more money than the whole album itself. Is anyone familiar with this Kodály work? I do want to buy it if it's anything similar to the Janáček, but I'll have to repurchase the Janáček and then likely repurchase BOTH again in Hi-Res .FLAC format, since I always buy .MP3 first to burn to CD and then my favorite recordings I repurchase in Hi-Res .FLAC for listening to when I'm sitting at my computer with my $300 headphones.

I just want to know if this Kodály work is worth making double purchases for.


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

I'm not familiar with it.

P.S. It's the Danish National Radio...


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## S P Summers (Dec 23, 2016)

Becca said:


> I'm not familiar with it.
> 
> P.S. It's the Danish National Radio...











Janacek & Kodaly: Choral Works


Janacek & Kodaly: Choral Works. Chandos: CHAN9310. Buy CD or download online. Tina Kiberg (soprano), Randi Stene (contralto), Peter Svensson (tenor), Ulrik Cold (bass), Per Salo (organ) Copenhagen Boys` Choir, Danish National Radio Symphony Orchestra & Choir, Sir Charles Mackerras



www.prestomusic.com





The preview sounds good, I'll pick it up in the near future and let you know how it is.

I could have bought the entire album for $12.75, instead I bought half of it for $14.50... What an idiot


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## Neo Romanza (May 7, 2013)

S P Summers said:


> One thing that is very important to me is high quality audio engineering and modern audio quality. I listen to SOME historical piano recordings, but if I'm listening to orchestral music; I don't want so much of it to be lost because of poor audio quality. I have many recordings that go back to around 1960 and sound phenomenal, I'm certainly open to older recordings but they NEED to be completely clear. The Geza Anda recordings of the Bartok piano concerti are a great example- they were recorded in 1960 and it sounds like modern engineering, but historical recordings with high quality audio are difficult to find.
> 
> I just default to Gergiev (especially for Russian music) if I have no other recordings that were specifically recommended. I've never been disappointed in any disc I've bought where Gergiev was the conductor, and the album that made me a huge Gergiev fan was his Scheherazade with the Kirov orchestra on Philips - Rimsky Korsakov: Scheherazade
> 
> ...


For me, and this is my own two cents, but an energetic conductor doesn't always mean the performance will be high energy or electrifying. Gergiev may be energetic, but he doesn't always yield positive results or, at least, for me this is the case. As I mentioned to another member on the "Listening" thread, I never thought LSO Live recordings sounded good. The Barbican Hall is a venue that has a bone-dry acoustic. The performance could be fantastic, but if there's not some kind of ambience (even minimal), then a lot of times I'm not too interested in listening any further. Even Soviet Era recordings sound better than LSO Live recordings and I know that sounds like a crazy comment, but, at least, their halls had _some_ atmosphere to them even if they were raw and in-your-face. Gergiev has done some good work, but mainly in the earlier part of his career when he was recording for Philips. Anyway, I just hope that you're not letting some kind of personal bias get in the way of your own objectivity when it comes to judging Gergiev. Even as much as I love Bernstein, for example, the guy had turned in some clunkers in his long career. I love many conductors, but I don't like everything they've done on the podium and the same goes with violinists, pianists, cellists etc.


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## Neo Romanza (May 7, 2013)

S P Summers said:


> This is my favorite thing I've heard since the Mahler 8. I listened to it in it's entirety 3 times last night. The climax in the Sanctus & Benedictus section might be the most incredible thing I've ever heard in my life. My other favorite recording from my round of purchases yesterday was the Janáček Glagolitic Mass (Mackerras/Dutch National Symphony Orchestra).
> 
> HOLY MOTHER OF GOD. The George Lloyd Symphonic Mass and the Janáček Glagolitic Mass- PURE SONIC ARMAGEDDON. GOD DAMN!
> 
> ...


Go with Ančerl in the _Glagolitic Mass_. He conducts the truncated version, but so what. It's a hell of a performance and, yes, it's wild.

Another work you should try is Schnittke's _Faust Cantata_ and Gubaidulina's _Alleluia_. These are both wild pieces that I think you'll enjoy that is if you're open to post-war music.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

If you want a good Kodaly collection I recommend the 2 CD set on Decca conducted by Antal Dorati. The more recent single CD on Naxos by Joanne Falleta is also a great listen.


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