# With trepidation, I approach Moses und Aron



## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

OK, folks, in a few minutes I'll engage in my first encounter with Schoenberg's masterpiece.

Homework about his life and works. Done.
Homework about the 12-tone technique of _Moses und Aron_ as opposed to atonal _Erwartung_. Done.
Howework about the opera itself, including musical criticism. Done.
Trivia about the opera - why is it Aron and not Aaron? Done. Question answered - it was Schoenberg's superstitious fear of a title with 13 letters.:lol:
Reading a full and detailed synopsis. Done.

Recording: ready to go. Pierre Boulez with the BBC Symphony Orchestra. Moses is Günter Reich. Aron is Richard Cassily.

Full libretto in four languages: ready to go.

Reading criticism about the recording (said to be dry and too controlled unlike Boulez's second attempt for DG, or the supposedly preferred Kegel version). Done. But what can I do? It's the one I have. I'll have to make do with it.

So, now, the moment of truth is near. Will I like it? Or even scarier, will I understand it? Will I get it?

Well, I did like his disciple's _Wozzeck_ and _Lulu_ (although not at first) so I'm optimistic. But I'm still scared.

We'll see. About to start.


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## World Violist (May 31, 2007)

Wow, I admire you. I've been scared away from Moses und Aron since I heard about it. Actually, I've never listened to much Schoenberg at all. I'm very interested in your views on this.


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## Webernite (Sep 4, 2010)

The most important thing to understand about late Schoenberg is that the fraught violence of the music is a _deliberate artistic choice_. So many people seem to believe that he simply churned the music out according to some mathematical formula, but that is completely untrue. Writing Moses und Aron was a creative process. When you listen to it, understand that he is trying to set the scene, express emotion and create dramatic tension just as any other composer would do. The difference is simply that he chose _extreme_ tension and very dark and frightening emotions.

Treat it like a Wagner opera, but where the intensity dial has been turned even further. Do *not* think of it as a mathematical exercise. Only then will you be able to be moved by it.


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

World Violist said:


> Wow, I admire you. I've been scared away from Moses und Aron since I heard about it. Actually, I've never listened to much Schoenberg at all. I'm very interested in your views on this.


WOW!!! I loved the first act!!!

Loved it immediately, no delay like when I listened to _Lulu._ This is fabulous!
The vocal music is extremely clever, the fact that Moses only speaks in arioso that is almost plain spoken language and Aron is a high tenor makes a striking contrast of their two natures, makes of the dialogues a very efficient back and forth. Then the choral music is simply spectacular!

The opera opens with Moses addressing the Voices from the Burning Bush (6 solo voices) which is actually the voice of God. I've never seen such an effective depiction of the supernatural, of the divine. It is really eerie, phantasmagoric, mysterious!

Then when the choral music switches to the large chorus representing the Jewish people, it is full of contrast and doubt and diverging opinions.

Meanwhile the orchestra provides the most incredible sounds!

The pace is simply frenetic! Aron seems to be always on the move with his rapid phrases while Moses is ponderous and reflexive.

Man, this is one opera where the staging is not needed (I'm saying something heretic for my own taste) because the tone painting from the orchestra and the dramatic impact from the voices are so descriptive!

Who said that Schoenberg's music makes no sense? The man is a genius!!:tiphat:

I never thought I'd like a modernist piece this much and this soon after first listening to it.

I can't wait for the second act. But I need a break, a snack... it's a powerful emotional experience. I confess I'm completely surprised.


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

Webernite said:


> The most important thing to understand about late Schoenberg is that the fraught violence of the music is an _deliberate artistic choice_. So many people seem to believe that he simply churned the music out according to some mathematical formula, but that is completely untrue. Writing Moses und Aron was a creative process. When you listen to it, understand that he is trying to set the scene, express emotion, and create dramatic tension just as any other composer would do. The difference is simply that he chose _extreme_ tension and very dark and frightening emotions.
> 
> Treat it like a Wagner opera, but where the intensity dial has been turned even further. Do *not* think of it as a mathematical exercise. Only then will you be moved by it.


Interesting, because without reading your message (I guess you were typing it while I was typing the one that came right after yours), it's exactly how I felt. Damn, this guy knows how to create dramatic tension! Amazing!!!


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## Webernite (Sep 4, 2010)

Oh, good! I'm a bit surprised you like it so much on your first try. Had you heard Erwartung before hearing this?


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

Webernite said:


> Oh, good! I'm a bit surprised you like it so much on your first try. Had you heard Erwartung before hearing this?


No I hadn't, I read the synopsis and I think it's my cup of tea, judging by my taste in movies. I like 'tranche de vie' (slice of life) kind of psychological drama and this woman wandering in a forest in a sort of dream-like, surrealistic, Freudian atmosphere is very promising. But it is purelly atonal and probably bleaker than Moses und Aron, likely not as impressively beautiful, right? But after this phenomenal experience of the first act, regardless of what I think of the second act (which I'll start in half an hour, I'm baking some finger food), I'll be sure to explore Erwartung next. Appropriate name, expectations...

*@World_Violist* - buddy, the problem with how good Moses und Aron is, is that it's blowing away Enescu's Oedipe.

I think once you finally face Moses und Aron like I did today, you'll be less impressed with Oedipe. It's a similar style, just, much better done.


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## Sebastien Melmoth (Apr 14, 2010)

Aron's lyric tenor is mellifluous.

Also Schönberg was a brilliant orchestrator, and the orchestration of _*Moses und Aron*_ fully illustrates this.

Next you'll be listening to *Die Jacobslieter*, *Die Glückliche Hand*, and *Von Heute auf Morgen*!

http://www.amazon.com/SCHÖNBERG-101-The-Short-Course/lm/R2RW0252OSPRBO/ref=cm_srch_res_rpli_alt_1


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

Sebastien Melmoth said:


> Aron's lyric tenor is mellifluous.
> 
> Also Schönberg was a brilliant orchestrator, and the orchestration of _*Moses und Aron*_ fully illustrates this.
> 
> ...


Thanks! Some nice bargains there, in the used tabs.
I've just mentioned to World_Violist in another thread how I've overspent and need to give myself a break to refuel the bank account, but you're tempting me!


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## Webernite (Sep 4, 2010)

Almaviva said:


> No I hadn't, I read the synopsis and I think it's my cup of tea, judging by my taste in movies. I like 'tranche de vie' (slice of life) kind of psychological drama and this woman wandering in a forest in a sort of dream-like, surrealistic, Freudian atmosphere is very promising. But it is purelly atonal and probably bleaker than Moses und Aron, likely not as impressively beautiful, right?


Well, the style of Schoenberg's music varies greatly from piece to piece. I can't really say for sure whether you'll find Erwartung easier or harder to listen to. It's much shorter; but yes, it may be more demanding, not least because there's only one character. Still definitely worth listening to, along with A Survivor from Warsaw.

Von Heute auf Morgen is probably the strangest of all his operas. It's a twelve-tone comedy. I haven't heard it all, but what I have heard was disturbing and certainly didn't make me laugh!


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## World Violist (May 31, 2007)

Almaviva said:


> *@World_Violist* - buddy, the problem with how good Moses und Aron is, is that it's blowing away Enescu's Oedipe.
> 
> I think once you finally face Moses und Aron like I did today, you'll be less impressed with Oedipe. It's a similar style, just, much better done.


Oh boy... Darn it. Now I'm in a bit of a conundrum. If you don't mind, I think I might just remain in my little bubble of denial with Oedipe being really awesome for a little while longer, until I can confidently afford Moses.:lol:

I'll keep my eye out for it though... they've probably got one I can listen to at my school library.


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

Webernite said:


> Von Heute auf Morgen is probably the strangest of all his operas. It's a twelve-tone comedy. I haven't heard it all, but what I have heard was disturbing and certainly didn't make me laugh!


This sounds really intriguing!


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

OK, second act over, and I read the third act (he died without setting it to music)
Powerful work, the second act is as good as the first, with strong theatrical possibilities, with the scenes of sacrifice, orgy...
I'd love for him to have finished this opera...
I'd love to see this opera staged... Someone needs to do a DVD of it.

It is outstanding. Certainly will be among my top 10 favorites, and I'll be listening to it many times.

Now I'm listening to his Chamber Symphony No. 2, Op. 38

I think I'll become a Schoenberg fan.


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## World Violist (May 31, 2007)

Almaviva said:


> Someone needs to do a DVD of it.


Take your pick...

http://www.amazon.com/Arnold-Schoen...Z7Z2/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1291091959&sr=8-2

http://www.amazon.com/Moses-Aron-Ru...59HK/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1291091959&sr=8-1


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

World Violist said:


> Take your pick...
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/Arnold-Schoen...Z7Z2/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1291091959&sr=8-2
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/Moses-Aron-Ru...59HK/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1291091959&sr=8-1


Oh man, I wonder, how did I miss these, when I bought my version on CD instead of DVD? Are they good in terms of singing, orchestra, and staging?

HELP!!!!

I can't spend more money!!!

Please tell me they are not good! Pretty please?


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## World Violist (May 31, 2007)

Almaviva said:


> Oh man, I wonder, how did I miss these, when I bought my version on CD instead of DVD? Are they good in terms of singing, orchestra, and staging?
> 
> HELP!!!!
> 
> ...


OK, they're horrible.


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

World Violist said:


> OK, they're horrible.


Actually I read the reviews for the first one - it's Eurotrash, and horrible indeed. Read the one star review and you'll see. I'm sure I'll hate it, after depicting in my imagination these gorgeous scenes while I was listening to this astounding masterpiece.

The second one is new (2010) and there are no reviews.

I'll trade lightly on this. I don't want to ruin the mental image I got of Moses und Aron with some Eurotrash.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

I have the Naxos recording which unfortunately has no libretto but a fairly good scene by scene synopsis. It's wierd because before listening to this opera, I thought that Schoenberg's orchestration was a bit lacking in colour. But no-one can deny that the orchestral interlude where the Israelites are worshipping the golden calf while Moses is up on the mountain has to be some of the most colourful music of the C20th. I think that there is much drama and tension when Moses comes down from the mountain and confronts Aron and his people, smashing the tablets of the law (on the recording it sounds like balsa wood being snapped, and it probably is!  ). Then Aron and the people leave Moses, and he is left in the wilderness. There seem to be parallels here with what was going on in Schoenberg's life at the time, with him being in exile in the USA, etc. I too like the use of the choirs (the counterpoint) and the orchestral colour in this work. But I have to give it more listening time, which is a bit hard, since the whole thing is so intense. I can understand why you took it in smaller bite sized chunks...


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## Sebastien Melmoth (Apr 14, 2010)

Almaviva said:


> _Now I'm listening to his Chamber Symphony No. 2, Op. 38_


The thing to remember about the Second Chamber Symphony is that though it was finished some 30 years after it was begun, Schönberg consciously completed it in his First Period Style (c.1906).

It's a perfect compliment to his First Chamber Symphony.


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## Webernite (Sep 4, 2010)

Yeah, the Chamber Symphony No. 2 and the Concerto for String Quartet and Orchestra ("after" Handel) are two of his easier and more nostalgic works from that period. The Concerto is probably the funniest and most lighthearted thing he ever wrote, in fact. The Handel concerto grosso on which it's based is completely rewritten - poor Handel never stood a chance.


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## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

I also really like this opera - and I usually don't like opera. I have Kegel's recording. 

I'm also like you; I've had the score to Ewartung on my desk for two months, and it's frustrating, because I haven't had time to go over it.


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## emiellucifuge (May 26, 2009)

Hmm.. Just saw you use the term Eurotrash and after some quick research ive decided i much prefer Eurotrash to the conservative historically realistic ameritrash


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## Aramis (Mar 1, 2009)




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## Webernite (Sep 4, 2010)

Almaviva: besides Erwartung, you might also want to try Gurrelieder, one his much earlier, tonal works. It's an oratorio, not an opera, but I think you'd love it, and it will give you a clearer perspective on Schoenberg's development as a composer. I've heard Gurrelieder criticised for being mere "orchestration practice" on the part of Schoenberg, but as one of the largest-scale works in the entire repertoire, it really is spectacular, no matter what anyone says.


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## StlukesguildOhio (Dec 25, 2006)

Eurotrash:






Almost completely put me off ever wanting to explore Schreker... which would have been a real loss as his music is quite beautiful... gorgeous, even.


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

StlukesguildOhio said:


> Eurotrash:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The music *is* gorgeous. The Eurotrash aspect is annoying but some parts are beautiful. Not one of the most offensive examples.


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

Webernite said:


> Almaviva: besides Erwartung, you might also want to try Gurrelieder, one his much earlier, tonal works. It's an oratorio, not an opera, but I think you'd love it, and it will give you a clearer perspective on Schoenberg's development as a composer. I've heard Gurrelieder criticised for being mere "orchestration practice" on the part of Schoenberg, but as one of the largest-scale works in the entire repertoire, it really is spectacular, no matter what anyone says.


Thanks for the recommendation. I'll make of exploring Schoenberg a priority. I'm really impressed with his talent.


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## Air (Jul 19, 2008)

How could anyone possibly call this music boring?


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

Air said:


> How could anyone possibly call this music boring?


The golden calf scene is exactly the one that grabs me most from the whole opera. I think it's very colourful & very exacting in it's portrayal of the brutality of the mob mentality - exactly the thing that had made things get right out of hand in Nazi Germany. This music was as relevant then as it is now...


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

Air said:


> How could anyone possibly call this music boring?


I can't understand it either. Boring??? This opera is fast paced, hectic, eventful, rich, suspenseful, intense... There's nothing boring about it. It is a fascinating rollercoaster. One needs a break to breath and recover, so ovewhelming it is. Boring? This is the polar opposite of boring. It's one of the most exciting works I've ever encounterd.
Whoever calls it boring is deaf.


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## World Violist (May 31, 2007)

Good, then I'm not deaf.

This stuff is incredible.


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## jurianbai (Nov 23, 2008)

not boring agree, but I think still average piece. there are many movie soundtrack that are not boring like this. I think the atonal / twelve tones music done well in opera.


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

jurianbai said:


> I think the atonal / twelve tones music done well in opera.


Good point. I think this style fits opera well because you can use it to tell stories that are raw and violent like Lulu's. In symphonic works this style can get boring and appear pointless, but when you have the support of a plot, it seems more meaningful.


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## emiellucifuge (May 26, 2009)

Almaviva, perhaps your new appreciation of twelve tone in opera will entice you to watch Die Soldaten ive been recommending it for a while


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## HarpsichordConcerto (Jan 1, 2010)

I have listened to many parts of this work (over the years), to want to make me listen to all of it (I intend to buy a CD recording of it). But it's not that great that it made me want to rush out to buy the recording instantly. Although a thread like this might just make me want to visit properly!


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## Sebastien Melmoth (Apr 14, 2010)

Webernite said:


> _*Gurrelieder*, one his much earlier, tonal works._


Early (or First Period) Schönberg (up to c. 1908) is very approachable in the vein of Brahms, Wagner, and Mahler--and yet, wholly original in sound and ethos.

Cf. *Six Orchestral Songs* (Op. 8); misc. *Lieder*; the sextet *Verklärte Nacht* (Op. 4); the *D-major String Quartet* (WoO, 1897); *d-minor String Quartet* (Op. 7).


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## Webernite (Sep 4, 2010)

Yes, the reason I mentioned Gurrelieder rather than any of those was only that (in my opinion) it is much closer to opera, and Almaviva appears to be a bit of an opera devotee.


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

Webernite said:


> Almaviva appears to be *a bit* of an opera devotee.


Understatement of the year.


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

emiellucifuge said:


> Almaviva, perhaps your new appreciation of twelve tone in opera will entice you to watch Die Soldaten ive been recommending it for a while


Send me a free copy.


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## Geronimo (Dec 3, 2010)

Almaviva said:


> Actually I read the reviews for the first one - it's Eurotrash, and horrible indeed. Read the one star review and you'll see. I'm sure I'll hate it, after depicting in my imagination these gorgeous scenes while I was listening to this astounding masterpiece.
> 
> The second one is new (2010) and there are no reviews.
> 
> I'll trade lightly on this. I don't want to ruin the mental image I got of Moses und Aron with some Eurotrash.












I saw that second one yesterday, and I was really intrigued by it. I'm not good at writing reviews in English, but I agree with this review.


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

Geronimo said:


> I saw that second one yesterday, and I was really intrigued by it. I'm not good at writing reviews in English, but I agree with this review.


Hmm... I don't know. I can't say that this review makes me want to buy this DVD.


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## rsmithor (Jun 30, 2011)

*Moses und aron... 12 tone or not... I say Yes... with the right recording*

After listening to Solti/Decca recording of Moses und Aron over the years i felt comfortable with Schoenberg's use of 12tone... the Met Opera/Levine staged Moses und Aron in 1999, Levine made Schoenberg's 20th century 12 tone music his own... 
update years later... i read this post

http://holyfuckingshit40000.blogspot.com/search?q=moses+und+aron

-------------------

I brought, Moses und Aron, Herbert Kegel / Werner Haseleu / Reiner Goldberg / Rundfunk-Sinfonie-Orchester Leipzig / Rundfunkchor Leipzig... CD









Awesome... just listen to The Golden Calf and the Altar... it's so liquid... it's as if every note was played at equal value and not for show... for me, it's like to listening to two singers... with one delivering sloppy coloratura sound, the other's, more accurate and a cleaner sound. Yes, both singers sang all the notes, but one can easily toss off strings of notes with ease, and clarity. it's in the details... With this recording it's the rhythm... and in 12tone no less... Awesome...

You can hear Kegel/Leipzig (the Golden Calf) on Youtube

Youtube: Schoenberg - Moses und Aron: Act II, Scene III: The Golden Calf and the Altar


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## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

I've been seeing this thread in the New Posts lately.

I don't know if _Almaviva _was justified in his trepidation, but he survived the encounter. This is a good thing.


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

Hilltroll72 said:


> I've been seeing this thread in the New Posts lately.
> 
> I don't know if _Almaviva _was justified in his trepidation, but *he survived the encounter. This is a good thing*.


Some will disagree.


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

Almaviva said:


> Some will disagree.


Not me sweetie.


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