# Karl Amadeus Hartmann



## Sid James

*Karl Amadeus Hartmann* (1905 - 1963) was a German composer. Some have lauded him as the greatest German symphonist of the 20th century, although he is now largely overlooked, particularly in English-speaking countries.

(from Wikipedia)

I've just been listening to Hartmann's _Piano Sonata 24.IV.1945_. It is a work written in response by the composer to the Holocaust, after witnessing the transportation of prisoners to Dachau. It alternates between dark & light, and has two alternate endings, which are as to eachother as night is to day.

Hartmann studied under Webern, but he was more influenced by Hindemith & Bartok. Many of his works reflect the time they were written in, bringing up profound questions about the nature of humanity & the darker forces within us that threaten humanity's very existence. I'm not sure if he answers many of these questions, but he sure does probe the depths of the human condition. In this way, I think he is in a long line of German humanist composers stretching back to Bach.

The _Piano Sonata _is the only work I have heard by him & I'd appreciate some insights by people who've heard some of his other works.


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## Mirror Image

There are a lot of composers who are over-looked get used to it.


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## Sid James

Yeah, like your bloody Bantock et al. Hartmann was a better composer then all of them put together...


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## Mirror Image

Andre said:


> Yeah, like your bloody Bantock et al. Hartmann was a better composer then all of them put together...


I didn't realize music was a competition? Is somebody a little fussy tonight?


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## Sid James

You're the one who started off by being negative. I'm just trying to get more insights into a composer who was as significant as Bartok & Hindemith in many ways, but unlike them, stayed in Europe during the course of WW2. I've read that he actually didn't compose for most of those years as a kind of protest against Nazism. It's seeing those people transported to Dachau that made him break the silence & compose that excellent _Piano Sonata_ which I mentioned above. I'm pretty sure there are others out there who have heard at least a few of his works, such as the famous_ Concerto Funebre _or a couple of the symphonies. I'm only just discovering him myself, I think on the strength of the excellent _Sonata_, he's definitely worth exploring...


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## Mirror Image

Andre said:


> You're the one who started off by being negative. I'm just trying to get more insights into a composer who was as significant as Bartok & Hindemith in many ways, but unlike them, stayed in Europe during the course of WW2. I've read that he actually didn't compose for most of those years as a kind of protest against Nazism. It's seeing those people transported to Dachau that made him break the silence & compose that excellent _Piano Sonata_ which I mentioned above. I'm pretty sure there are others out there who have heard at least a few of his works, such as the famous_ Concerto Funebre _or a couple of the symphonies. I'm only just discovering him myself, I think on the strength of the excellent _Sonata_, he's definitely worth exploring...


You're not going to get any insights when you say something like "He's better than this composer or that composer." I'm not really sure what grounds you have to say something like that.

All I said was he's overlooked like so many other composers are.


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## Mirror Image

I haven't heard a note of Hartmann's music, so I can't comment on his music, but there appears to be many recordings available. Why don't you go checkout your library and see if they have any and then report back to us?


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## Sid James

Anyway, I wasn't lamenting that he's overlooked. That's from the Wikipedia article.

I think what's very interesting about Hartmann is that he started afresh, with almost a blank slate, after WW2. From then on, he rearranged and re-edited other existing works into the pieces we now know as his symphonies. I think he was thinking that a new, rebuilt & democratic Germany (well, at that time, the Western part, anyway) had to make it's own corresponding music, different from what was in the past (corrupted by the Nazi experience?). I think this is what makes him different to other composers of his generation...


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## Mirror Image

Andre said:


> Anyway, I wasn't lamenting that he's overlooked. That's from the Wikipedia article.
> 
> I think what's very interesting about Hartmann is that he started afresh, with almost a blank slate, after WW2. From then on, he rearranged and re-edited other existing works into the pieces we now know as his symphonies. I think he was thinking that a new, rebuilt & democratic Germany (well, at that time, the Western part, anyway) had to make it's own corresponding music, different from what was in the past (corrupted by the Nazi experience?). I think this is what makes him different to other composers of his generation...


How can you judge a composer by hearing one piece of their music? With me, it's different, I don't like or enjoy any serialist composers because I have clearly stated it goes against my musical beliefs and my principles, but how does someone like yourself, think they can judge a composer without hearing hardly any music from them?

Anybody can read about Hartmann if they want to, but do you *know* his music? You're only reporting back on what you have read, which anybody can do.

You may have listened to classical music longer than I have or have more experience with it, but I bet you I've heard more of the actual music than you have.


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## Sid James

Is this website to be vetoed by you? Can't I put up some information I've read about a composer that interests me, and share my insights into a particular work? Am I allowed to do this, or do I have to get permission from you?

& the fact is that the language of the _Piano Sonata _is quite tonal, but on the edges of tonality, like say Debussy's piano works. I'd say that his harmonic language is just as easy to absorb as Debussy. Hartmann's influences were wide ranging, and I have listened to Hindemith's & Bartok's piano music to judge a kinship there as well. I think it is simplifying things greatly, and unnecessarily, to call Harmann a serialist. Certainly of what I've read, his major works were mainly tonal, even though on the edges, like the composers above. Would you call them serialists as well? It's not totally accurate, I'd say...


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## Mirror Image

Andre said:


> & the fact is that the language of the _Piano Sonata _is quite tonal, but on the edges of tonality, like say Debussy's piano works. I'd say that his harmonic language is just as easy to absorb as Debussy. Hartmann's influences were wide ranging, and I have listened to Hindemith's & Bartok's piano music to judge a kinship there as well. I think it is simplifying things greatly, and unnecessarily, to call Harmann a serialist. Certainly of what I've read, his major works were mainly tonal, even though on the edges, like the composers above. Would you call them serialists as well? It's not totally accurate, I'd say...


I NEVER called Hartmann a serialist...lol. I never said that I didn't like or like Hartmann's music. I know he's not a serialist. Where are you getting all of this from, Andre?


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## Sid James

It doesn't matter about the serialist issue. Maybe I got carried away. Anyway, I don't think it's wrong to open a discussion about a composer after hearing one work & having read a bit about their lives. All I want to do is hear others' impressions about this composer. I am honest & upfront enough to put my experiences & impressions on the table & let others follow. You don't have to question the completeness of my musical knowledge of the man (or generally) because I haven't made any claims that I can't support. I'm beginning to sound as if I'm in a courtroom now, so I'll stop & warmly invite any other impressions people have of Hartmann to put them here (hopefully not only for my benefit)...


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## Mirror Image

Andre said:


> It doesn't matter about the serialist issue. Maybe I got carried away. Anyway, I don't think it's wrong to open a discussion about a composer after hearing one work & having read a bit about their lives. All I want to do is hear others' impressions about this composer. I am honest & upfront enough to put my experiences & impressions on the table & let others follow. You don't have to question the completeness of my musical knowledge of the man (or generally) because I haven't made any claims that I can't support. I'm beginning to sound as if I'm in a courtroom now, so I'll stop & warmly invite any other impressions people have of Hartmann to put them here (hopefully not only for my benefit)...


Fair enough.


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## starthrower

Heh, heh! Nice to know you've been acquitted, Andre! Well I thought I would resurrect this thread since I'm getting immersed in Hartmann's first six symphonies courtesy of Ingo Matzmacher and the Bamberg Symphony.

A nice discovery if I do say so! All six symphonies are different, ranging from one to five movements, and I can honestly say I enjoy them all. I can't give a detailed description of all six after one listening, but here's a few words of what I can recall.

The 1st is in five movements featuring a contra alto, and text by Walt Whitman. Mournful and beautiful.

Number 2 is a single movement work featuring a gorgeous baritone sax solo early on. 

No.3 in 2 movements. I'm pasting this description from an Amazon reviewer because I couldn't describe it any better.

The third symphony (building on earlier works) opens with a Largo for string orchestra reminiscent of Alban Berg, hauntingly beautiful and powerful and developing into a remarkable, scintillatingly brilliant allegro con fuoco fugue of an almost unprecedented stridently ecstatic nature. The episodic second movement doesn't quite match the masterly first, even though it still contains many splendid things.

No.4 scored for string orchestra is a very ambitious work in 3 movements at over 33 minutes.

No.5 is a masterfully orchestrated neo classical work for winds, brass, and low strings that should have great appeal to fans of Stravinsky, Hindemith, and maybe even Bartok. There's a repeated reference to the bassoon melody in Stravinsky's Rite.

No.6 in 2 movements is the boldest and most visceral of the six. An exciting and exhilarating work of ambitious and challenging orchestration for the full orchestra. Might appeal to fans of Bartok's Mandarin or Wooden Prince?

I'm looking forward to repeated listening of these symphonies, and eventually hearing nos. 7 & 8.


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## Jeremy Marchant

starthrower said:


> Heh, heh! Nice to know you've been acquitted, Andre! Well I thought I would resurrect this thread since I'm getting immersed in Hartmann's first six symphonies courtesy of Ingo Matzmacher and the Bamberg Symphony.
> 
> A nice discovery if I do say so! All six symphonies are different, ranging from one to five movements, and I can honestly say I enjoy them all. I can't give a detailed description of all six after one listening, but here's a few words of what I can recall.


Rather like Henze without the sensuousness.


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## GoneBaroque

Hartmann is a new name to me but there is a good sampling of his music on YouTube. 
For example listen to his Jazz-Toccata und -Fuge für Klavier (1928)


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## starthrower

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Good piece! There's a 2 disc set being released tomorrow on EMI. It includes symphonies 7-8, and a disc
of piano music including the sonata, and the Jazz-Toccata Und Fuge, among others.
http://www.amazon.com/Hartman-Symph...=sr_1_7?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1328569119&sr=1-7


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## Sid James

I have not heard Hartmann's symphonies yet, but from your description *starthrower*, it seems he treated the symphonic form very freely & flexibly. Eg. how they have different number of movements, some have solos, and for different combinations of instruments (eg. string orchestra, etc.). It reminds me of what Villa-Lobos did in his _Bachianas Brasileir_as and_ Choros _pieces, in terms of the wide range of differences between those. Thanks very much for your description, btw, and for resurrecting this thread, which I will contribute to shortly, as I intend to listen to more of Hartmann's music soon...


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## starthrower

Here's the single movt symphony no.2


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## Neo Romanza

Hartmann is an incredible composer. There's so much passion, aggression, grief, and bitterness in his music that I find it such an intoxicating mixture. His symphonies, including works like _Symphonische Hymnen_ and _Sinfonia Tragica_, are really his major contributions to music, but I do love the _Concerto Funebre_. I don't think much of his other concerti as I think they meander and lack the white-hot intensity of his symphonies. Favorite symphonies include the 2nd, 3rd, 4th, and 6th.


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## Celloman

*Karl Amadeus Hartmann* (1905-1963)

His music is dense, darkly contrapuntal, and modern - yet it is also lyrical and dramatic. His most oft-performed piece is probably the _Symphony No. 6_, which is often regarded as one of the greatest symphonies of the 20th century. He wrote eight symphonies (if you don't count the _Sinfonia Tragica_ and a few other pieces), five operas (3 unfinished), several concerti, various vocal works, and chamber music (including two string quartets). He enjoys growing popularity in mainland Europe and his native Germany, but his music is still largely neglected in English-speaking countries.

What do _you_ think of this unjustly overlooked and underrated composer?


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## brotagonist

I was aware of the composer and his rediscovery.

_Symphony 2_ starts and ends well, but it dismayingly decays into a jazz-like interlude with a 'Broadwayesqueness' that evokes Judy Garland. The _Jazz Toccata_ is so-so. I sampled the 2CD _Symphonies 7 & 8_/Piano Works set, but I am not motivated to buy it.

After reading a bit about Hartmann, I realize that I had confused him with Bernd Alois Zimmermann, who I actually do wish to explore.


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## mmsbls

NOTE: we have merged the new Hartmann thread with the older one.

Admin update: 03-Jun-2015: Merged new thread with existing thread that began in 2009.

The discussion continues below

Krummhorn,
Administrator


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## Birdsong88

I am surprised that there has not been a thread of this composer yet. . I have recently been listening to some of his works and I find them to be some of the best works that were profoundly reflective of WWII. Anyone else on here like his works?


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## Birdsong88

Now that I have posted I see that there has been a thread of Hartmann before. Oops! However,it has been over a year and a half since here has been any activity. 

Admin edit: threads merged on 03-Jun-2015


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## elgar's ghost

A difficult composer to categorise overall as he seemed to want to form an individual style from many different influences old and new rather than being influenced by just one or two composers in particular, so perhaps it's better if I don't!

As a body of work I like his symphonies, some of which have a tortured history as they were reconstructed from earlier material. I made do with those for years and then took the plunge with his only full-length opera, Simplicius Simplicissimus (a parable-like work set during the Thirty Years War) - a work which certainly doesn't merit its present obscurity. I then bought the two string quartets and after hearing them I was wishing he'd written more. There isn't all that much else available on top of that but I now have my beady eyes on these, the second of which is a recording of five short operas, an early project which he sadly left unfinished:


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## brotagonist

^ Those look interesting, particularly the former, but the cover art looks morbid, particularly the latter. I guess it's supposed to be Adolph. While not an opera aficionado, but a dappler nonetheless, I should YT the opera some day.

I enjoy his symphonies quite a lot (I just discovered them last summer and they blew me away ), but I don't find them to be "profoundly reflective of WWII." I was very taken by the intoxicated fin de siècle late Romantic style that speaks Berg to me.


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## elgar's ghost

brotagonist said:


> ^ Those look interesting, particularly the former, but the cover art looks morbid, particularly the latter. I guess it's supposed to be Adolph. While not an opera aficionado, but a dappler nonetheless, I should YT the opera some day.
> 
> I enjoy his symphonies quite a lot (I just discovered them last summer and they blew me away ), but I don't find them to be "profoundly reflective of WWII." I was very taken by the intoxicated fin de siècle late Romantic style that speaks Berg to me.


It's Chaplin, I believe - one of the unfinished short operas has the comic's name in the title and is subtitled 'Scenic Jazz Cantata'. Another is about Rasputin so it all sounds quite topical.


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## Triplets

The Concerto Funebre received a spate of recordings a couple of years back. Like some other great Violin with Orchestra pieces, it's brevity is probably a handicap in the Concert Hall


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## brotagonist

brotagonist said:


> _Symphony 2_ starts and ends well, but it dismayingly decays into a jazz-like interlude with a 'Broadwayesqueness' that evokes Judy Garland. The _Jazz Toccata_ is so-so. I sampled the 2CD _Symphonies 7 & 8_/Piano Works set, but I am not motivated to buy it.


Wow! I didn't know I wrote that! Some time last year, I revisited KA Hartmann and was bowled over by his symphonies :lol: I liked them so much, that I bought the two 2CD sets of his eight. It's amazing how one can do an about face after a pause for reflection


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## starthrower

brotagonist said:


> Wow! I didn't know I wrote that! Some time last year, I revisited KA Hartmann and was bowled over by his symphonies :lol: I liked them so much, that I bought the two 2CD sets of his eight. It's amazing how one can do an about face after a pause for reflection


Ya! I'm getting back to these works again. Great music with plenty of depth and soul searching.


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## Janspe

I've been delving into Hartmanns' oeuvre tonight. Aften listening to the _Concerto funebre_, the _Kammerkonzert_, the piano concerto and the 3rd, 4th and 6th symphonies all I can say is that I need to come back to this composer more in the future. Impressive scores, and as a lover of Berg I connected to the musical language quite easily. Hartmann must've known Berg's work quite well indeed - and he did study with Webern!


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## Sid James

Last month, elgar's ghost made the following two posts on the Current Listening thread. I think these provided insightful commentary on Hartmann, and am reposting them here (with kind permission from elgar's ghost).

In his first post, elgar's ghost provided background on Hartmann's life and times, as well as discussing various chamber, solo piano and operatic works.



elgars ghost said:


> Various works by Karl Amadeus Hartmann part one, focusing on the earliest works of his which have been recorded. I have taken the liberty of dredging up some introductory notes from a previous post.
> 
> Soon after the Nazis took over the avowedly anti-Fascist Hartmann opted to retreat from the musical world as a form of silent protest against the regime, but in any case it's possible that within the ever-narrowing parameters set by prevailing cultural doctrine his music at that time would have come to have been designated as _entartete_ ('degenerate'), a fate which was to befall the likes of Jewish and gentile composers alike - Schoenberg, Berg, Weill, Webern, Hindemith, to name just a few. In 1935 Hartmann, a Catholic, was told by the authorities to provide the baptismal records of his parents and grandparents as further proof of his Aryan heritage - he had nettled them by not taking previous requests seriously enough and this might have resulted in him being marked down as a potential troublemaker.
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> Despite walking something of a tightrope Hartmann managed to remain at liberty in his Bavarian homeland during those dark times but his policy of passive withdrawal coupled with a barely-concealed anti-Nazi stance brought his career to a complete standstill. This inactivity aroused further suspicion, and although Hartmann privately composed a few works ('for the drawer', as Shostakovich would go on to say) he would steadfastly refuse to make anything available either for performance or publication until the post-war era began. Most of the orchestral works composed during the 1930s and 1940s were either withdrawn or given a total overhaul years later, often becoming different works entirely.
> 
> The sonatas and suites for solo violin - all from 1927 - sometimes bring to mind the textural austerity of Max Reger's output for solo strings from over a decade before, but there are touches of both folk-like lyricism and neoclassical clarity here as well which help to give the music more light and shade.
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> Sonata no.2 for solo violin (1927):
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> During the artistically carefree times of the 1920s the young Hartmann incorporated jazz embellishments within his two short piano suites and the _Jazz-Toccata und Fuge_, just like George Antheil, Paul Hindemith and Ervin Schulhoff did with some of their piano works earlier that same decade. Otherwise, the two suites have a Debussy or Skryabin-like otherworldliness to them in the gentler sections, while some elements of the _Jazz-Toccata und Fuge_ occasionally bring to mind Bartók's miniatures. The eight-minute _Sonatine_ from 1931 is weighty and tense to begin with and ends gently but still uneasily.
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> Sadly Hartmann never completed the orchestration for three of the five satirical episodes which make up _Wachsfigurenkabinett_, a work tailor-made for the anything-goes Weimar years - they were posthumously finished off by Günter Bialas, Wilfred Hiller and Hans Werner Henze and it was Henze himself who was largely responsible for overseeing the work's premiere nearly 60 years after Hartmann put the project aside.
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> _Wachsfigurenkabinett_ [_Waxworks_] - 'five little operas' [Libretto: Erich Borman] (1929-30 - inc.):
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> The first string quartet - one of only two Hartmann composed - is rather chewy but with some capricious twists and turns. As with much of the orchestral music to come it isn't immediately easy to pigeon-hole, but the closest I can get to in the broadest (i.e. unacademic on my part!) sense is a robust synthesis of Hindemith and Bartók, especially the latter with his penchant for sudden bursts of rhythmic drive.
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> String Quartet no.1 [_Carillon_] (1933):


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## Sid James

In his second post, elgar's ghost went on to discuss Hartmann's orchestral music, the _Piano Sonata No.2 "27.IV.45"_ and _String Quartet No. 2_.



elgars ghost said:


> Karl Amadeus Hartmann - various works part two spread over the rest of this afternoon and early evening.
> 
> There was a Symphony no.1, but as it eventually became a rather different work to the one from which it was derived (ditto Symphonies 3-5, all of which had equally convoluted histories) I have slotted it into the next session where it makes more sense chronologically speaking. The _Sinfonia Tragica_ below was withdrawn, with one movement providing material for what was to become Symphony no.3 nearly a decade later. Confused? As was I - it took me ages to get my head around it all.
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> _Symphonische Hymnen_ for large orchestra, adapted from the incomplete _Symphoniae Drammaticae_ for reciter and orchestra (1941-43):
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> The large-scale second piano sonata from 1945 was to be Hartmann's final composition for solo piano. The subtitle refers to the actual day when an appalled Hartmann witnessed thousands of inmates from Dachau being force-marched towards the Austrian border after the camp was abandoned by the SS as the American forces were about to bear down on them. The presence of an eleven-minute funeral march at the heart of the work tells its own story - as so many died on the march this is a sombre lament for those doomed as well as for those already dead who were found at the camp by the advancing US troops.
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> Piano Sonata No.2 [_27.IV.45_] (1945):
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> Symphony no.2 - revised version of the _Adagio_ for large orchestra (orig. 1940-44 - rev. 1945-46 and again by 1950):


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