# Kendrick Lamar wins Pulitzer Prize in music for 2018



## Lisztian (Oct 10, 2011)

https://pitchfork.com/news/kendrick-lamar-wins-pulitzer-prize/

For his album 'Damn.' This is the first time any album/work not in the genres of Classical or Jazz has won the award.

Thoughts?


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## violadude (May 2, 2011)

It's not a bad album, not the best rap album I've heard. I'd have to listen to it more to make a final judgement in my head.


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## janxharris (May 24, 2010)

Lisztian said:


> https://pitchfork.com/news/kendrick-lamar-wins-pulitzer-prize/
> 
> For his album 'Damn.' This is the first time any album/work not in the genres of Classical or Jazz has won the award.
> 
> Thoughts?


https://www.talkclassical.com/non-classical-music/


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## Nereffid (Feb 6, 2013)

It's not my kind of music, but I'm delighted he won, not least because the news might give some bigot a stroke.

As for whether it's classical music, that's irrelevant. The Prize is "For distinguished musical composition by an American that has had its first performance or recording in the United States during the year".


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## tdc (Jan 17, 2011)

I've listened to some on the tracks on the album, and while the music itself is well produced and shows some talent, the over all behaviour and lyrical content of most rap music (this included) is in my opinion childish, cringe worthy and really an embarrassment. It doesn't represent my tastes or values and I think its kind of sad this is the example they are holding up as something that is supposed to be a kind of pinnacle in music.


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## janxharris (May 24, 2010)

It's not my thing either. I don't get it.

I'm hearing very little actual music.


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## St Matthew (Aug 26, 2017)

janxharris said:


> It's not my thing either. I don't get it.
> 
> I'm hearing very little actual music.


Cool to hear, thanks for letting us know. I'll just phone the rest of the world to notify them....


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## St Matthew (Aug 26, 2017)

Pretty good album actually, despite that the song "Love" is bland as hell and overplayed. Not as amazing/great as the past two albums but I'm still quite proud of him to be making a mark and his general popularity within rap. Great dude, though I hope he does something different next.


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## janxharris (May 24, 2010)

St Matthew said:


> ...I'll just phone the rest of the world to notify them....


?????????????????


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## JosefinaHW (Nov 21, 2015)

Nereffid said:


> It's not my kind of music, but I'm delighted he won, not least because the news might give some bigot a stroke....


Wishing a stroke on those we dislike or disagree with.... very progressive! Let's set it to some music by Bach, Haydn or Mozart.


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## janxharris (May 24, 2010)

St Matthew said:


> Pretty good album actually, despite that the song "Love" is bland as hell and overplayed. Not as amazing/great as the past two albums but I'm still quite proud of him to be making a mark and his general popularity within rap. Great dude, though I hope he does something different next.


Perhaps you can explain to those that don't get it what it is they are missing?


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## Nereffid (Feb 6, 2013)

JosefinaHW said:


> Wishing a stroke on those we dislike or disagree with.... very progressive! Let's set it to some music by Bach, Haydn or Mozart.


(a) It was a joke.

(b) I don't know about you, but I don't see the terms "bigot" and "those we dislike or disagree with" as being synonymous.

(c) If we're setting it to music by Mozart then K.231 is the obvious choice.

(d) That was a joke too.


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## Nereffid (Feb 6, 2013)

Here's a brief interview in _Billboard_ with Dana Canedy, administrator of the Pulitzer Prizes: https://www.billboard.com/articles/.../kendrick-lamar-damn-pulitzer-prize-interview



> The jury made the recommendation to the board, I am on the board, and then the board considered the jury recommendation, and unanimously voted in favor of this. We're very excited. The system worked the way it should in that a really spectacular work was celebrated today in the music category.


The jury, incidentally, consisted of jazz violinist Regina Carter, Paul Cremo of the Metropolitan Opera, Columbia English professor Farah Jasmine Griffin, music critic David Hajdu, and composer David Lang.


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## Mood Drifter (Apr 11, 2018)

The Pulitzer prize for "composition" goes to a rap album? I call that *down the tube*.


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## St Matthew (Aug 26, 2017)

Mood Drifter said:


> The Pulitzer prize exists? I call that *down the tube*.


I agree, awards are for kids, not for an industry of adults who should be creating things without the childish idea of competing for a little piece of paper that says their name on it (or a little bronze figurine) but in 2018 it still seems to be a thing.

Beethoven doesn't deserve an award, neither does Coltrane or Kendrick Lamar, it devalues music's immaterial worth


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## Kieran (Aug 24, 2010)

St Matthew said:


> I agree, awards are for kids, not for an industry of adults who should be creating things without the childish idea of competing for a little piece of paper that says their name on it (or a little bronze figurine) but in 2018 it still seems to be a thing.
> 
> Beethoven doesn't deserve an award, neither does Coltrane or Kendrick Lamar, it devalues music's immaterial worth


Well, I kinda disagree with that, from this perspective. Awards put the music in the spotlight and have an effect on "the industry", if you don't mind such a blunt term. It can be a great boost to an actor/author/musician to be feted like this, and it exposes people to an art form they may not be familiar with. It also puts ideas in peoples way, and that might incite them to engage.

Except the Turner Prize. Now that's just silly...


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## science (Oct 14, 2010)

I don't know the music but I've heard from people whose insight I respect that it really is a good album.


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## Nereffid (Feb 6, 2013)

science said:


> I don't know the music but I've heard from people whose insight I respect that it really is a good album.


It would be kind of weird if (a) it won the Pulitzer, (b) there was controversy because it didn't win the main album Grammy, (c) it topped the album charts in the US and came close in a bunch of other countries, and (d) it was album of the year or thereabouts on a lot of critics' lists, and yet (e) it was objectively rubbish.


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## janxharris (May 24, 2010)

https://genius.com/Kendrick-lamar-element-lyrics:



> On "ELEMENT," Kendrick asserts himself as the most dominant rapper in the game, taking his contemporaries to task and daring them to call him out on wax.
> 
> Kendrick delves into his personal journey of self-sacrifice and family tribulations that has so far accumulated in his life; how the struggles his family and himself have endured have influenced & carried him to where he stands today: at the top of the game.
> 
> Prior to the album release, Lebron James jammed out to this song on his Instagram story. Lebron is a huge Kendrick fan, and was instrumental in the release of his last project, untitled, unmastered.


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## eljr (Aug 8, 2015)

Lisztian said:


> https://pitchfork.com/news/kendrick-lamar-wins-pulitzer-prize/
> 
> For his album 'Damn.' This is the first time any album/work not in the genres of Classical or Jazz has won the award.
> 
> Thoughts?


about time some realized that good music exists in all genre


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## SONNET CLV (May 31, 2014)

I'm content to revisit the 1970 Pulitzer winner, _Time's Encomium_, by Charles Wuorinen. Damn! They knew what music was back then.


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## Prodromides (Mar 18, 2012)

Nereffid said:


> It's not my kind of music, but I'm delighted he won, not least because the news might give some bigot a stroke.
> 
> As for whether it's classical music, that's irrelevant. The Prize is "For distinguished musical composition by an American that has had its first performance or recording in the United States during the year".


That Kendrick Lamar's rap/hip hop album has won this Prize does not induce any stroke in me (much to Nereffid's un-delight  ), but my brain is nonetheless affected anyway. I'm puzzled how rap and hip hop can be deemed 'musical composition' by a Pulitzer jury & board.

When the Pulitzer Prize was established in 1917, was it the intention (according to the provisions within Mr. Pulitzer's will) to include popular music - or music for pleasure - amongst nominations for this award?

Shouldn't the phrase 'musical composition' indicate concert music (or absolute music or abstract music) created in a Western instrumental tradition?


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## Blancrocher (Jul 6, 2013)

This was to be expected after the Nobel Prize for Literature went to Bob Dylan.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Pulitzer awards are a far left happening. Every newspaper reporter awarded, was from a newspaper that is far left in editorial policy, such as the Washington Post and New York Times.

You mean the impeccably reported, but conservative, Wall Street Journal had no reporting worthy of recognition?

Ridiculous.

The Pulitzer awards, like the Noble prizes and Hollywood self-congratulatory awards are so far left, it's ridiculous, and not to be taken seriously by anyone interested in fairness.

The music award, like the rest of the Pulitzers is by me, to be completely ignored.

I couldn't care less.


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## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

Blancrocher said:


> This was to be expected after the Nobel Prize for Literature went to Bob Dylan.


In 1992 the music jury of the Pulitzer said, "Pulitzers are enhanced by having, in addition to the professional's point of view, the layman's or consumer's point of view." I guess they got tired of giving awards to compositions that nobody had heard of or would ever bother to listen to.


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## Blancrocher (Jul 6, 2013)

Manxfeeder said:


> In 1992 the music jury of the Pulitzer said, "Pulitzers are enhanced by having, in addition to the professional's point of view, the layman's or consumer's point of view." I guess they got tired of giving awards to compositions that nobody had heard of or would ever bother to listen to.


Well, at least there's still the Grawemeyer Award.


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## mountmccabe (May 1, 2013)

Prodromides said:


> That Kendrick Lamar's rap/hip hop album has won this Prize does not induce any stroke in me (much to Nereffid's un-delight  ), but my brain is nonetheless affected anyway. I'm puzzled how rap and hip hop can be deemed 'musical composition' by a Pulitzer jury & board.
> 
> When the Pulitzer Prize was established in 1917, was it the intention (according to the provisions within Mr. Pulitzer's will) to include popular music - or music for pleasure - amongst nominations for this award?
> 
> Shouldn't the phrase 'musical composition' indicate concert music (or absolute music or abstract music) created in a Western instrumental tradition?


Joseph Pulitzer did not call for a Music Prize in his will. When they eventually decided to give Music Award it went to classical compositions - though from the from the very first one awarded (to a cantata by William Schuman) not necessarily abstract or instrumental works. Eventually the jury realized that they did a disservice to American music by not being open to works by artists such as George Gershwin and Duke Ellington, so they worked on broadening their criteria and gave them posthumous awards (and eventually Thelonious Monk and John Coltrane, too).

That is to say they realized that their goal was to celebrate American music, and do so without such strict regard for genre.


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## ldiat (Jan 27, 2016)

i listen to some can not handel it. just do not like it getting old......


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## bz3 (Oct 15, 2015)

What's more of a joke, the pullitzer for this rap album or Bob Dylan winning the Nobel for Literature?

EDIT: and I say this as someone who owns every single Dylan album to date and someone who does like some rap, though not Kendrick Lamar (grating whiny delivery and unsettling beats - no wonder it's popular in these grating and unsettling times).


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## Larkenfield (Jun 5, 2017)

OK he wins. Congratulations. But doesn't this belong in the nonclassical section?-and I hope it's moved there ASAP.


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## Larkenfield (Jun 5, 2017)

Lisztian said:


> https://pitchfork.com/news/kendrick-lamar-wins-pulitzer-prize/
> 
> For his album 'Damn.' This is the first time any album/work not in the genres of Classical or Jazz has won the award.
> 
> Thoughts?


Just because it's the Pulitzer Prize, why post it under classical music?


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## bz3 (Oct 15, 2015)

^ Please don't misgenre my music or assume my genre. Rap is a classical music-identifying genre now. The Ministry of Tolerance has been notified of your post.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

ldiat said:


> i listen to some can not handel it. just do not like it getting old......


Believe me, you are not alone .


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## janxharris (May 24, 2010)

SONNET CLV said:


> I'm content to revisit the 1970 Pulitzer winner, _Time's Encomium_, by Charles Wuorinen. Damn! They knew what music was back then.


Perhaps we should debate which is a more (or less) worthy winner - Charles Wuorinen's 'Time's Encomium' or Lamar's 'Damn'.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

janxharris said:


> Perhaps we should debate which is a more (or less) worthy winner - Charles Wuorinen's 'Time's Encomium' or Lamar's 'Damn'.


Well, I know which one's got a more hifalutin' name.


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## St Matthew (Aug 26, 2017)

janxharris said:


> Perhaps you can explain to those that don't get it what it is they are missing?


You asked the wrong question, depending on who you talk to, (the person in question) will have a different answer to that. Even rap fans look for different things in rap, just like how classical fans look for different things in classical. I can make quite an accurate estimated guess that I cannot change your mind about one man's music (contrary to another man's, such as your own). As you've already said in the most cliche, derogatory way "_[I'm] you're hearing little actual music_", which sounds incredibly sarcastic - as to say "_I'm going slightly going deaf and cannot hear this beat in 4/4, and I cannot hear the bassline accompanying the beat which the poetic lyrics are rapping over_" :lol:


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## Nereffid (Feb 6, 2013)

janxharris said:


> Perhaps we should debate which is a more (or less) worthy winner - Charles Wuorinen's 'Time's Encomium' or Lamar's 'Damn'.


I suspect that most of the people who are outraged about Lamar winning - in the wider world, not just on TC - would dislike most of the winning music from Wuorinen to Lamar (and before Wuorinen, too). Assuming they ever even heard it in the first place, which I doubt.


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## St Matthew (Aug 26, 2017)

janxharris said:


> Perhaps we should debate which is a more (or less) worthy winner - Charles Wuorinen's 'Time's Encomium' or Lamar's 'Damn'.


You got me there, "Time's Encomium" is my favorite Wourinen work, he really reached his gold age of works in the early 70s. Bloody awesome american composer! :tiphat:


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## St Matthew (Aug 26, 2017)

There are rap fans that love Kendrick, there are rap fans that hate Kendrick.
There are classical fans that love Brahms, there are classical fans that hate Brahms.

It's life people


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## janxharris (May 24, 2010)

Even if a majority of posters here don't appreciate Lamar's 'Damn', its only significant is it not, if a or some previous winners are deemed worthy?


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## janxharris (May 24, 2010)

Nereffid said:


> I suspect that most of the people who are outraged about Lamar winning - in the wider world, not just on TC - would dislike most of the winning music from Wuorinen to Lamar (and before Wuorinen, too). Assuming they ever even heard it in the first place, which I doubt.


Perhaps we should work (or slog?) our way through the previous winners and see what's worthy?


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## janxharris (May 24, 2010)

St Matthew said:


> You asked the wrong question, depending on who you talk to, (the person in question) will have a different answer to that. Even rap fans look for different things in rap, just like how classical fans look for different things in classical. I can make quite an accurate estimated guess that I cannot change your mind about one man's music (contrary to another man's, such as your own). As you've already said in the most cliche, derogatory way "_[I'm] you're hearing little actual music_", which sounds incredibly sarcastic - as to say "_I'm going slightly going deaf and cannot hear this beat in 4/4, and I cannot hear the bassline accompanying the beat which the poetic lyrics are rapping over_" :lol:


Well, I wasn't being sarcastic...it's just my view that's all - it doesn't make me 'right'.


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## janxharris (May 24, 2010)

Winner 2014: John Luther Adams, Become Ocean


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

janxharris said:


> Winner 2014: John Luther Adams, Become Ocean


The very definition of "tedious".


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## Guest (Apr 18, 2018)

tdc said:


> I've listened to some on the tracks on the album, and while the music itself is well produced and shows some talent


So the award is, to some extent, justified



tdc said:


> the over all behaviour and lyrical content of most rap music (this included) is in my opinion childish, cringe worthy and really an embarrassment.


So not relevant to the award given in this specific case.



tdc said:


> It doesn't represent my tastes or values


Again, not relevant to the award. It's not to my taste either, but it doesn't mean it isn't merited.


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## janxharris (May 24, 2010)

KenOC said:


> The very definition of "tedious".


I've heard it few times - not sure what I think.


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## janxharris (May 24, 2010)

St Matthew said:


> You asked the wrong question, depending on who you talk to, (the person in question) will have a different answer to that. Even rap fans look for different things in rap, just like how classical fans look for different things in classical. I can make quite an accurate estimated guess that I cannot change your mind about one man's music (contrary to another man's, such as your own). As you've already said in the most cliche, derogatory way "_[I'm] you're hearing little actual music_", which sounds incredibly sarcastic - as to say "_I'm going slightly going deaf and cannot hear this beat in 4/4, and I cannot hear the bassline accompanying the beat which the poetic lyrics are rapping over_" :lol:


I merely asked for your opinion as why you think it is a good album.

If I criticise it I'm sarcastic but your, ' "Love" is bland as hell and overplayed' is okay?


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## janxharris (May 24, 2010)

KenOC said:


> The very definition of "tedious".


Ambient relaxation music?


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## Flamme (Dec 30, 2012)

Caught my ears immediately very weird decision, im not a purist or elitist by any measure but this...


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## Nereffid (Feb 6, 2013)

janxharris said:


> I've heard it few times - not sure what I think.


It's one of my favourite pieces of music of the past... um...

* works it out on a calculator *

... 1,000 years or so.
Don't ask me to explain how you might get to like it too. The reasons are entirely to do with what goes on in my own head.

Of the last 20 prize winners, I know 8 of them and like them all to varying degrees. I've sampled some of the others and not been tempted any further, nor have I felt the need to go on the Internet and complain about them.


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## Larkenfield (Jun 5, 2017)

*John Luther Adams, Become Ocean*... captures something of the magic and depths of the sea in a different way than Debussy's La Mer. The Debussy, as usual for new works, was not initially well-received, so there's always the critics wanting to knock something they may not have given a sufficient chance. It's not surprising there are contemporary composers who have something to say about Nature just as Beethoven, Delius, Sibelius, Debussy, and others did. Our oceans are also being _ravaged_, so it's a timely subject except if one doesn't care one way or another.



>


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## janxharris (May 24, 2010)

Nereffid said:


> It's one of my favourite pieces of music of the past... um...
> 
> * works it out on a calculator *
> 
> ...


Ta - I'll give it another go. It's certainly interesting.


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## tdc (Jan 17, 2011)

MacLeod said:


> So not relevant to the award given in this specific case.


We were asked to give our thoughts on the topic, therefore my comment was relevant to this thread. Since the definition for the award is very vague, unless someone is objecting about the citizenship of the composer or the first performance, any other observations could be deemed 'irrelevant'. Thanks captain obvious.


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## Flamme (Dec 30, 2012)

He's right, you know...


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## Guest (Apr 18, 2018)

tdc said:


> We were asked to give our thoughts on the topic, therefore my comment was relevant to this thread. Since the definition for the award is very vague, unless someone is objecting about the citizenship of the composer or the first performance, any other observations could be deemed 'irrelevant'. Thanks captain obvious.


My point was that your somewhat disparaging comment about the winner was based not on your opinion of Lamar's work in general or the specific album, but on your views about rap in general, which, IMO are not really a relevant criteria on which to judge Lamar or the album that won the award.

In other words, you seemed to take an opportunity to criticise rap when the thread was about Pulitzer / Lamar / his album

Not sure why that makes me 'capt obvious'.


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## BiscuityBoyle (Feb 5, 2018)

tdc said:


> I've listened to some on the tracks on the album, and while the music itself is well produced and shows some talent, the over all behaviour and lyrical content of most rap music (this included) is in my opinion childish, cringe worthy and really an embarrassment. It doesn't represent my tastes or values


I understand how someone would form this view, we all come from different places in life and have different sensibilities and different histories of previous exposure to music. But consider the following quotation from the great British novelist and essayist Zadie Smith:



> ... asking why rappers always talk about their stuff is like asking why Milton is forever listing the attributes of heavenly armies. Because boasting is a formal condition of the epic form. And those taught that they deserve nothing rightly enjoy it when they succeed in terms the culture understands.


Not trying to overturn everyone's view of hip hop with this short, out-of-context quotation, but I do hope it gives pause to some of those who slam it as crass and primitive, if only to recognize that another perspective on this genre is possible.


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## Kieran (Aug 24, 2010)

It all reminds me of the brouhaha caused in 2016 when Bob Dylan won the Nobel Prize, although in that instance the greater controversy was why it took them so long...


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## Room2201974 (Jan 23, 2018)

Kieran said:


> It all reminds me of the brouhaha caused in 2016 when Bob Dylan won the Nobel Prize, although in that instance the greater controversy was why it took them so long...


And echoes of Marsalis in 1997 and Ellen Zwilich in 1983.


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## Room2201974 (Jan 23, 2018)

tdc said:


> I've listened to some on the tracks on the album, and while the music itself is well produced and shows some talent, the over all behaviour and lyrical content of most rap music (this included) is in my opinion childish, cringe worthy and really an embarrassment. It doesn't represent my tastes or values.


In that case, can I get first dibs on your _Hamilton_ tickets? I'd hate to throw away my shot at them!


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## Vasks (Dec 9, 2013)

Room2201974 said:


> And echoes of Marsalis in 1997 and Ellen Zwilich in 1983.


Or even Wuorinen's electronic piece "Time's Encomium"

BTW: Is your profile pic John Boda?


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## Vronsky (Jan 5, 2015)

I was listening Bob James: The Scarlatti Dialogues. After seeing this thread for the Pulitzer winner, I checked Lamar's music. Now I feel like - after taking a nice bath, someone threw me into a septic tank.


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

I listened to Lamar's music for about 1/2 hour. The music itself is nothing special - some of it is simply traditional pop. As for the lyrics, I don't care. Overall, give that man's prize to another person.


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## Room2201974 (Jan 23, 2018)

Vasks said:


> Or even Wuorinen's electronic piece "Time's Encomium"
> 
> BTW: Is your profile pic John Boda?


Yes, John Boda was both my composition and theory professor. The most incredible musician I've ever met! Both my name and picture in this forum are homages to John and the debt that I feel that I owe him. I don't think I have the words to describe what a truly remarkable human being he was.


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## Vasks (Dec 9, 2013)

Room2201974 said:


> Yes, John Boda was my composition professor. The most incredible musician I've ever met!


Me too. But my instead of 1974, put me at 1984.


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## tdc (Jan 17, 2011)

MacLeod said:


> My point was that your somewhat disparaging comment about the winner was based not on your opinion of Lamar's work in general or the specific album, but on your views about rap in general, which, IMO are not really a relevant criteria on which to judge Lamar or the album that won the award.
> 
> In other words, you seemed to take an opportunity to criticise rap when the thread was about Pulitzer / Lamar / his album
> 
> Not sure why that makes me 'capt obvious'.


Sorry you need to re-read my post. My comment was based on most rap in general_ and _the tracks I had listened to on Kendrick's album, here is an excerpt of the post:

"The over all behaviour and lyrical content of most rap music (*this included*) is in my opinion childish, cringe worthy and really an embarrassment."


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## tdc (Jan 17, 2011)

BiscuityBoyle said:


> Not trying to overturn everyone's view of hip hop with this short, out-of-context quotation, but I do hope it gives pause to some of those who slam it as crass and primitive, if only to recognize that another perspective on this genre is possible.


Well as I said my post was about _most_ rap, so my view does not encompass all of hip hop.

"Rap is like a set up, a lot of games" 
-KRS 1

"Don't Believe the Hype" 
-Chuck D


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## Guest (Apr 19, 2018)

tdc said:


> Sorry you need to re-read my post. My comment was based on most rap in general_ and _the tracks I had listened to on Kendrick's album, here is an excerpt of the post:
> 
> "The over all behaviour and lyrical content of most rap music (*this included*) is in my opinion childish, cringe worthy and really an embarrassment."


You're right, I had overloooked the words in parentheses. Sorry. However, my error doesn't entirely invalidate my criticism of your post, which suggested that whether music "represents my tastes and values" is a valid criteria to consider when making the award.


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## janxharris (May 24, 2010)

This worthy of the Pulitzer Prize for music?

Kendrick Lamar - Humble.

I'm nonplussed.


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## janxharris (May 24, 2010)

On the day of its release Pitchfork named it Best New Track noting that "Humble" is a "hard-nosed G check of his lessers, that pivots into imperfect critiques of beauty standards". NPR's Andrew Flanagan thought, "the song, less exploration of contrition on the part of Lamar than an instruction to his peers, picks up a thread NPR Music first examined following that album teaser: how the 'best rapper alive' might explore the theme of God, religion and personal growth." For Alex Young of Consequence of Sound, "it's got all the ingredients of a proper lead single


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## Guest (Apr 19, 2018)

Vronsky said:


> I was listening Bob James: The Scarlatti Dialogues. After seeing this thread for the Pulitzer winner, I checked Lamar's music. Now I feel like - after taking a nice bath, someone threw me into a septic tank.


And what a great function a septic tank performs - where would we be without them or their mainstream equivalent?


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## Kieran (Aug 24, 2010)

I don't know if this has been posted but the losing finalists are very happy for Lamar:

https://slate.com/culture/2018/04/p...on-and-ted-hearne-on-kendrick-lamars-win.html


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## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

I like a lot of rap, but this album doesn't deserve the award at all. The rhythms are repetitive, and nondistinctive from a lot of other rap and the melodies are like snippets thrown together. Play the tune on any instrument without the production and it will sound banal. Even the production is unremarkable. Electronic artists produce way more challenging sounds. 

I see this more of a political statement by the Pultizer Prize more than anything else.


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## janxharris (May 24, 2010)

Phil loves classical said:


> I like a lot of rap, but this album doesn't deserve the award at all. The rhythms are repetitive, and nondistinctive from a lot of other rap and the melodies are like snippets thrown together. Play the tune on any instrument without the production and it will sound banal. Even the production is unremarkable. Electronic artists produce way more challenging sounds.
> 
> I see this more of a political statement by the Pultizer Prize more than anything else.


What (rap) artist or particular song would cite as more worth than this?


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## Vronsky (Jan 5, 2015)

MacLeod said:


> And what a great function a septic tank performs - where would we be without them or their mainstream equivalent?


If Kendrick Lamar's music (or Rap/Hip hop generally speaking) is the mainstream equivalent, I would say that at least public decency would be in better condition.


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## Nereffid (Feb 6, 2013)

Kieran said:


> I don't know if this has been posted but the losing finalists are very happy for Lamar:
> 
> https://slate.com/culture/2018/04/p...on-and-ted-hearne-on-kendrick-lamars-win.html


Useful link, thanks!

Ted Hearne: "When we say classical music, I think it's a collection of audiences and musicians that have been grouped together and a big part of that grouping together, over centuries, has been about the exclusion of nonwhite people and nonwhite artists. Sure, in some respects, using violins and European classical instruments is a part of classical music, but so are a lot of other ideas. Especially in America, there are incredibly important musical thinkers who have been kept out of classical music spaces for a long time. ... The ideas that Miles Davis and Charlie Mingus were playing with compositionally were more innovative than almost anybody in the entire century. We have to ask ourselves why Miles Davis is not considered part of that genre. It's great that the Pulitzer Prize, which is considered prestigious in some circles, is recognizing a whole tradition of musical thinkers and bringing them into a space that has been, up until very recently, entirely white. Of course, it's great to be included on a list with [Kendrick], but it also bodes well for breaking down the walls of genre."


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## Flamme (Dec 30, 2012)




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## Capeditiea (Feb 23, 2018)

First off, i have a disdain for most rap, because it is just rare for me to like a full album. (only one i have really liked in it's entirety was Z(enseider)Z's Indecipher... not because he is a friend of mine... but because he does random genres. He is on an Ambient phase lately, i cannot say what his new album is going to be like... but it is turning out to be amazing.) 

But in regards to Kendrick Lamar's Damn. 
Sigh... the first song was amazing. 
then from the second to eighth tracks... they were horrid. (not the lyrics, he has a way with words. but it just sounds like every one else in rap.)
The rest of the album was fairly decent. Repititious but decent. 

But a lot of it can be relatable for various folk who listen to the genre of rap. 

But there is definately a story behind the full album. Which makes it amazing on that level. 
I probably won't listen to it for a long while... 

Blood, Lust, Love, Fear, and God are my favourite songs. (funny how those kinda make sense together as titles.)


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## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

janxharris said:


> What (rap) artist or particular song would cite as more worth than this?


Public Enemy's Fear of a Black Planet has great production arrangements and rhythms. Boogie Down Productions' Ghetto Music. Eric and Rakim's Follow the Leader. NWA's Straight Outta Compton (just saw the movie a week ago)


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## Kieran (Aug 24, 2010)

Phil loves classical said:


> Public Enemy's Fear of a Black Planet has great production arrangements and rhythms. Boogie Down Productions' Ghetto Music. Eric and Rakim's Follow the Leader. NWA's Straight Outta Compton (just saw the movie a week ago)


I must say, I liked that old rap more than today's stuff, which can't help but seem less dangerous and raw, by comparison. Ice Cube, Amerikkkah's Most Wanted, produced by Public Enemy's producers, was like a fearsome kick in the belly, followed by Death Certificate. Dr. Dre produced two LP's that would make Lassie wag his tail, tongue hanging out. Bob Dylan even mentions this stuff in his book, Chronicles, where he says that, in comparison to his own "archaic" latest record - Oh Mercy - " these guys weren't standing around bullsh1tting, they were beating drums, tearing it up, hurling horses over cliffs. They were all poets and knew what was going on"


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## science (Oct 14, 2010)

I'm too old and too uninterested in pop culture to evaluate this music. I can barely even stand television shows. Most of what I think of as edgy music is about fifty years old and was never influential in a meaningful way (i.e. Black Angels), and the last album of popular music I really liked came out - get this - 22 years ago; it was by a musician who'd just turned 64. The entire world of this music is foreign to me.

It would be exactly as presumptuous, and for the same reasons, for me to think I can dismiss this after a few moments of listening as it is for some students to dismiss Shakespeare after struggling unsuccessfully with a few pages of _Julius Caesar_.

So normally I wouldn't care, but the confident fervor of this thread inspired me to read a bunch of reviews of this album and various songs on it. And I learned that these lyrics are a form of literature that I simply don't know how to understand. When they are interpreted for me, and compared to other lyrics in the genre, I can see that they're really creative, clever stuff, and they deal with important ideas. People who are qualified to evaluate the music are also impressed by it and they can explain why in terms that I can sometimes understand.

Also, it seems like to some degree this prize is also for a previous album, _To * a Butterfly_, which also seems to have been impressive, although I first heard of it about an hour ago. (This is like Steve Reich getting a Pulitzer for _Double Sextet_.)

So, sure, why not give it a prize? It's not like any classical composition over the past year has greatly affected the way tens of millions of people think and feel about their place in the world.

Anyway, a lot - probably the majority - of classical music fans seem to delight in dismissing any composition since the death of Britten. I haven't done a scientific study but it feels to me like there's some noticeable overlap between that contingent and the people most vociferously expressing objections to this prize. So why don't we all enjoy Ted Hearne's work to console ourselves (with a hat tip to Kieran for posting a link to the article where I got this)?






Ah, well, it's not a baptism in three-hundred-year-old tea, but since we live in a time of abundant safe drinking water and the listening public is no longer restricted to only the preeminent beneficiaries of the exploitation of peasants and slaves, this is our art.


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## BiscuityBoyle (Feb 5, 2018)

tdc said:


> Well as I said my post was about _most_ rap, so my view does not encompass all of hip hop.
> 
> "Rap is like a set up, a lot of games"
> -KRS 1
> ...


Wait, what are these meant to say or illustrate, that you're down with the hippety hop brigade? Or that hip hop is all show and games?

KRS 1 did one of the funniest of all hip hop songs, real musical too


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## tdc (Jan 17, 2011)

BiscuityBoyle said:


> Wait, what are these meant to say or illustrate, that you're down with the hippety hop brigade? Or that hip hop is all show and games?


That I like some hip hop, but I don't trust a lot of it. I think there are ulterior motives behind much of what is promoted. I feel embarrassed for many of the 'gangster' rappers because I think they have been used as pawns to promote an agenda that hurts their own race. Black on black crime has sky rocketed since the emergence of gangster rap. I do like KRS-One and Public Enemy. The over all attitude and lyrical content of rap artists like Kendrick Lamar is cringe worthy and childish to me.


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## Guest (Apr 20, 2018)

tdc said:


> Black on black crime has sky rocketed since the emergence of gangster rap.


That's quite a claim. Of course, it could be that gangster rap is just a reflection of the increase in black on black crime, not the cause of it.


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## Nereffid (Feb 6, 2013)

Phil loves classical said:


> Public Enemy's Fear of a Black Planet has great production arrangements and rhythms. Boogie Down Productions' Ghetto Music. Eric and Rakim's Follow the Leader. NWA's Straight Outta Compton (just saw the movie a week ago)


I can't even imagine what would have happened if any one of those had been awarded the Pulitzer at the time.

 :lol:


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## science (Oct 14, 2010)

MacLeod said:


> That's quite a claim. Of course, it could be that gangster rap is just a reflection of the increase in black on black crime, not the cause of it.


I don't believe the crime stats would support the claim either. Murder rates in the US bottomed out around 2015, and so did black-on-black homicide--neither are anywhere near the rate they were in the 1980s (including before gangsta rap was popular) and 1990s, and one of the main reasons may be merely because we took lead out of gasoline.


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## BiscuityBoyle (Feb 5, 2018)

MacLeod said:


> That's quite a claim. Of course, it could be that gangster rap is just a reflection of the increase in black on black crime, not the cause of it.


It's also a noxious right wing talking point that conveniently ignores the structural racial biases in US legislation and law enforcement, the millions upon millions of young black men incarcerated in private prisons for the crime of smoking pot etc and so forth.


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## Flamme (Dec 30, 2012)

When i listened to rap i prefered the Hip Hop which in my time(90s) was totally opposite from ''gangsta rap''...Hip hop were House of pain, Cypress Hill, Public Enemy, while GR were Snoop Dog, 2Pac, Easy E etc...That was also an age of crossover-hardcore bands like Dog Eat Dog, Rage Against The Machine etc which i continued to listen till now...Even today i like to listen House Of Pain and Hill at times. Definitely had much better music, samples, loops, scratches lyrics, individuality, today everything is kinda mushy!


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## bz3 (Oct 15, 2015)

> I got so many theories and suspicions
> I'm diagnosed with real ***** conditions
> Today is the day I follow my intuition
> Keep the family close, get money, f-*! b***hes


Move over Wallace Stevens and Ezra Pound.


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## Guest (Apr 20, 2018)

I expect that Germans are celebrating cultural enrichment.


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## janxharris (May 24, 2010)

A Profile Of Kendrick Lamar

Mark Coles looks at the life and work of Kendrick Lamar who this month won the Pulitzer Prize for Music, the first non-classical or jazz musician to win the award. The Pulitzer board praised the way Kendrick captures modern American life. The award was described as a huge moment for hip hop. Over the past few years Kendrick has dominated the charts but he is gaining as much attention for his politics, writing songs about race, street life, police brutality, perseverance, survival and self-worth. Songs like Alright and The Blacker the Berry, have become anthems in the wake of high-profile police shootings of minorities in the United States.


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## JohnD (Jan 27, 2014)

I'm not the first to say this, but it seems obvious to me that this thread belongs in the non-classical music section.


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## Nereffid (Feb 6, 2013)

JohnD said:


> I'm not the first to say this, but it seems obvious to me that this thread belongs in the non-classical music section.


Given that almost all the winners of the Pulitzer so far have been classical compositions, I think moving a thread about the Pulitzer to "non-classical" is a bit preemptive, surely?


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## science (Oct 14, 2010)

Implicitly, the point of the thread is to lament that classical music has lost a bit of status to hip hop because of this, or to deny that it's a problem.


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## Nereffid (Feb 6, 2013)

A perspective from Slate, arguing that "vernacular authenticity" is a poor reason for giving Lamar the Pulitzer:
https://slate.com/culture/2018/04/the-pulitzers-awarded-kendrick-lamar-for-the-wrong-reasons.html

"the Pulitzer board's recognition of Damn lends the institution credibility by bringing its concerns in line with those of the majority of listeners, demonstrating that it is prepared to participate in an ongoing intellectual conversation with critics and fans who long ago recognized hip-hop's tendency toward musical experimentation and social commentary. Hip-hop remains where it was before the prize. Only the gatekeepers have moved.
The cultural framework that the Pulitzer board used in awarding Lamar the prize feels more important than the question of credibility, though. In its emphasis on a supposed "vernacular authenticity" that allows listeners passage into black life's inner workings, the board pressed Damn into a familiar discourse on black art that converts its aesthetic concerns into anthropological ones. As I've argued before, hip-hop is constantly struggling against this impulse to reduce the genre to a politicized and "authentic" expression of black life, or a window onto an assumed black reality. Even as the board attempted to integrate hip-hop into a cultural field characterized by experimental, abstract rigor, it instantiated a general tendency for critics to reduce black music to a mere reflection of black experience. This contradiction suggests that the most persistent frame of reference that culturally white institutions have for black artistic production is as the realist representation of authentic experiences.
This is especially disconcerting in the case of Damn, which explicitly announces itself as a fever dream.
... While we should take pleasure at the fact that the arbiters of high culture are aligning themselves with popular sentiment, we shouldn't base hip-hop's cultural legitimacy on their praise or evaluate it according to their criteria. If we do, we risk losing sight of the sonic and lyrical innovation that is the genre's hallmark."


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## janxharris (May 24, 2010)

Nereffid said:


> A perspective from Slate, arguing that "vernacular authenticity" is a poor reason for giving Lamar the Pulitzer:
> http://www.slate.com/culture/2018/04/the-pulitzers-awarded-kendrick-lamar-for-the-wrong-reasons.html
> 
> "the Pulitzer board's recognition of Damn lends the institution credibility by bringing its concerns in line with those of the majority of listeners, demonstrating that it is prepared to participate in an ongoing intellectual conversation with critics and fans who long ago recognized hip-hop's tendency toward musical experimentation and social commentary. Hip-hop remains where it was before the prize. Only the gatekeepers have moved.
> ...


...just wondering what exactly 'fever dream' refers to...

I couldn't get the full story and the link didn't work.


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## Nereffid (Feb 6, 2013)

janxharris said:


> ...just wondering what exactly 'fever dream' refers to...
> 
> I couldn't get the full story and the link didn't work.


Sorry. Correct link here: https://slate.com/culture/2018/04/the-pulitzers-awarded-kendrick-lamar-for-the-wrong-reasons.html


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## Prodromides (Mar 18, 2012)

Nereffid said:


> ... While we should take pleasure at the fact that the arbiters of high culture are aligning themselves with popular sentiment,..."


Should we take pleasure in this?

I say 'no'.

Did a composer such as Milton Babbitt ever intend that his musical compositions be aligned with popular aesthetics?

High culture (plus its arbiters) should be elitist and disassociate themselves from pop culture.

Does any TCer recall "Who Cares if You Listen?" 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Who_Cares_if_You_Listen

"Babbitt describes "serious", "advanced music" as "a commodity which has little, no, or negative commodity value", and the composer of such music as, "in essence, a 'vanity' composer". It is music of which the general public is largely unaware, and in which it takes no interest. "After all, the public does have its own music, its ubiquitous music: music to eat by, to read by, to dance by..." Performers, too, are seldom interested in "advanced" music, so that it is rarely performed at all and the exceptional occasions are mainly "poorly attended concerts before an audience consisting in the main of fellow 'professionals'. At best, the music would appear to be for, of, and by specialists". *Babbitt continues to maintain, however, that music cannot "evolve" if it only attempts to appeal to "the public". "And so, I dare suggest that the composer would do himself and his music an immediate and eventual service by total, resolute, and voluntary withdrawal from this public world to one of private performance and electronic media, with its very real possibility of complete elimination of the public and social aspects of musical composition."* He recognizes the practical problems for the composer of "advanced" music not patronized by the concert-going public: "But how, it may be asked, will this serve to secure the means of survival for the composer and his music? One answer is that after all such a private life is what the university provides the scholar and the scientist." He concludes: "if this [advanced] music is not supported, the whistling repertory of the man in the street will be little affected... But music will cease to evolve, and, in that important sense, will cease to live.""


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## Haydn70 (Jan 8, 2017)

> ... While we should take pleasure at the fact that the arbiters of high culture are aligning themselves with popular sentiment, we shouldn't base hip-hop's cultural legitimacy on their praise or evaluate it according to their criteria. If we do, we risk losing sight of the sonic and lyrical innovation that is the genre's hallmark."


Right, let's take pleasure in how standards of beauty, technique and taste have been destroyed.

No form of popular music should be considered for the Pulitzer...to have awarded garbage like 'Damn' is especially offensive.


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## Guest (Apr 25, 2018)

Prodromides said:


> Did a composer such as Milton Babbitt ever intend that his musical compositions be aligned with popular aesthetics?
> 
> High culture (plus its arbiters) should be elitist and disassociate themselves from pop culture.


Is there any reason why we (or the Pulitzer judges) should pay special attention to what Babbitt had to say? And why should we assume that Pulitzer must be about 'high culture' (I think I've just soiled my mouth).



ArsMusica said:


> Right, let's take pleasure in how standards of beauty, technique and taste have been destroyed.
> 
> No form of popular music should be considered for the Pulitzer...to have awarded garbage like 'Damn' is especially offensive.


First establish that Damn is garbage, then that it is offensive (and not just to you) and then that beauty, technique and taste have been destroyed by it. An easy assertion to make, but, IMO, much less easy to demonstrate.

From the Pulitzer website's FAQs http://www.pulitzer.org/page/frequently-asked-questions
(in case you missed Nereffid's post #3)



> 10. *What is the definition of the Music category?*
> 
> For distinguished musical composition by an American that has had its first performance or recording in the United States during the year.
> 
> ...


That seems plain enough. Anyone who believes that it has been reserved for, or should be reserved for classical music alone is mistaken.



JohnD said:


> I'm not the first to say this, but it seems obvious to me that this thread belongs in the non-classical music section.


Have you asked a mod to move it to, say, the News and Events section? It best belongs there, perhaps.


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## janxharris (May 24, 2010)

Prodromides said:


> Should we take pleasure in this?
> 
> I say 'no'.
> 
> ...


Beethoven, Mozart, Sibelius, Mahler and Shostakovich (among others) are all pretty popular.

No one has the authority to decide what 'high' culture is.


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## janxharris (May 24, 2010)

ArsMusica said:


> No form of popular music should be considered for the Pulitzer...


That's quite a statement. You've listened to every piece of 'popular' music?

There are plenty of classical orchestral pieces that are considered popular.


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

I've seen this thread thriving for many days but have refrained from commenting as I don't know the album in question. I wonder if those who are so disappointed or angry have listened to it or whether the negative comments are merely about the incursion of a popular genre into the Pulitzer lists? I guess that over decades all prize winner lists will show changes in approach that track changes in fashion. If this award is such a dumbing down of the Pulitzer standards then, sure, I regret it (and even despise it) but it is just a trend and things will move on. In which direction I wonder.

I do not think works should be rejected for such prizes just because they come from a popular genre but I do doubt that the award committees of major prizes are well equipped to choose works of extraordinary merit from such a genre.


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## Kieran (Aug 24, 2010)

Was there a citation with this award, that explains why he got it? For example, when Dylan won the Nobel prize, a hullabaloo ensued, with people arguing that he doesn't write books, that his lyrics aren't poems, etc, but the citation said he got the award "for having created new poetic expressions within the great American song tradition."

Perhaps the people who disagree with this decision are attacking him for the wrong reasons?

In common with most here, I haven't heard his music, but I have no difficulty accepting that he won the award...


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## janxharris (May 24, 2010)

Kieran said:


> Was there a citation with this award, that explains why he got it? For example, when Dylan won the Nobel prize, a hullabaloo ensued, with people arguing that he doesn't write books, that his lyrics aren't poems, etc, but the citation said he got the award "for having created new poetic expressions within the great American song tradition."
> 
> Perhaps the people who disagree with this decision are attacking him for the wrong reasons?
> 
> In common with most here, I haven't heard his music, but I have no difficulty accepting that he won the award...


http://www.pulitzer.org/winners/kendrick-lamar


> Recording released on April 14, 2017, a virtuosic song collection unified by its vernacular authenticity and rhythmic dynamism that offers affecting vignettes capturing the complexity of modern African-American life.


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## janxharris (May 24, 2010)

I admit to being a bit lazy. If I don't hear what I consider to be something that stimulates me musically then it's an effort to check out the lyrics.

...and it's difficult to hear what K. Lamar is rapping.


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## Guest (Apr 25, 2018)

I know nothing about rap, I'm too old to get it and have a problem with the strangely affected baby voices that many modern singers use. I also cannot see anything musical of interest here, but then maybe, like punk rock, there isn't supposed to be.

That said, I looked up the lyrics for the song. Some of the references were difficult to understand, but they were not without interest. Here is a sample from 'Humble':


> Girl, I can buy yo' #ss the world with my paystub
> Ooh, that p#ssy good, won't you sit it on my taste bloods?


which isn't without an element of poetic resonance.

As for the P. Prize, I do not give a tinker's cuss. It is just another form of the rankings that we are cursed with on TC with the addition in this case of adding a marketing spin.


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## janxharris (May 24, 2010)

Pitchfork review of Kendrick Lamar's "DNA."

[Admin edit: deleted quotation of above links contents from this post due to copyright reasons.]


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## Guest (Apr 25, 2018)

Tulse said:


> Here is a sample from 'Humble':
> 
> which isn't without an element of poetic resonance.


Lol!



Tulse said:


> It is just another form of the rankings that we are cursed with on TC with the addition in this case of adding a marketing spin.


Exactly so. And woe betide anyone whose ranking fails to coincide with the arbiters of high culture.



Enthusiast said:


> I do doubt that the award committees of major prizes are well equipped to choose works of extraordinary merit from such a genre.


Why? Check out the purposes of Pulitzer and who the judges are supposed to be and you'll see that they are entitled to bring their perspective to such rankings as anyone on TC or in the history of music. I mean, the only name I recognise (apart from Pulitzer) in the panels I've noted over the years is Ben Bradlee. I've no idea what he knows about music, classical or otherwise, but I'm happy for him and his ilk to make a pronouncement.

The mistake is that some people have perhaps been attaching a greater significance to such awards in the first place. Why else the shock?


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## Guest (Apr 25, 2018)

To widen the debate a little, I do use the historical Booker Prize shortlists as a means of accessing contemporary novels. I see it as a rough form of quality control in the way that I use lists on TC. So I think that taken with a pinch of salt these prizes do have a function in bringing artists to a wider audience, even if the prize itself is meaningless.

If I remember rightly, James Kelman's acceptance speech for his Booker prize winning 'How late it was, how late' * was not of the 'thank you I don't deserve it but I'm thrilled' kind but instead complaining about the necessity for authors to win prizes in order to earn a living. 





*Highly recommended by the way. Scots novelists have a talent for writing from an authentic working class perspective in contrast to the upper middle class drabble that normally afflicts us in the UK.


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## Kieran (Aug 24, 2010)

janxharris said:


> http://www.pulitzer.org/winners/kendrick-lamar


_Recording released on April 14, 2017, a virtuosic song collection unified by its vernacular authenticity and rhythmic dynamism that offers affecting vignettes capturing the complexity of modern African-American life._

Right, thanks. The citation is quite complex too! :lol:


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## Haydn70 (Jan 8, 2017)

Manxfeeder said:


> In 1992 the music jury of the Pulitzer said, "Pulitzers are enhanced by having, in addition to the professional's point of view, the layman's or consumer's point of view." I guess they got tired of giving awards to compositions that nobody had heard of or would ever bother to listen to.


No, they were infected with a heavy dose of political correctness. It is always about lowering the bar...and I don't think it can get any lower...


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## Haydn70 (Jan 8, 2017)

Nereffid said:


> As for whether it's classical music, that's irrelevant. The Prize is "For distinguished musical composition by an American that has had its first performance or recording in the United States during the year".


There is nothing distinguished about it...and nothing musical either.


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## Guest (Apr 25, 2018)

Haydn70 said:


> No, they were infected with a heavy dose of political correctness. It is always about lowering the bar...and I don't think it can get any lower...


I think it might have more to do with the idea that this is the opinion of the panel - not of Haydn70 or MacLeod. I don't even need to listen to it (I still haven't) to know that if that's the decision of the Pulitzer jury, what does it matter if I hate it or proclaim it 'trash'?

It's still just an opinion.


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## Haydn70 (Jan 8, 2017)

I found this Tweet in regard to the lunacy of awarding the prize to such garbage:

"What's more upsetting is nobody knowledgeable or distinguished enough in the music community will say anything about it. They are castrated and useless."

Amen to that. I have been thinking the same thing for days. In these politically correct times I guess it is futile to wait for someone, perhaps along the lines of a John Corigliano, to step up and call this what it is: a purely political stunt that is an insult to every art music composer who won the award or was nominated in the past.


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## R3PL4Y (Jan 21, 2016)

I don't know this album, as I don't really listen to rap. But I think a lot of people here could use a little more open-mindedness about music that may not be to their own tastes. It's things like this that remind me that classical music's elitist reputation is far from unearned. We will hardly earn any new listeners by talking down to them and calling everything else trash.


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## Clairvoyance Enough (Jul 25, 2014)

I've been a fan of rap music my entire life and I don't hear anything revolutionary or extraordinary about the lyrics or production. The genre produced more daring albums over ten years ago. 

Honestly, I'm going through some of Kendrick's verses now and he actually seems to be pretty terrible. If you google the "best punchlines of Rapper-X," be it Eminem, Jay-Z, Rakim, Nas, even Lil-Wayne, you'll usually find at least a few entertaining puns with some multi-layered wordplay to justify their reputation. This guy doesn't even seem to have that.


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## JosefinaHW (Nov 21, 2015)

ArsMusica said:


> I found this Tweet in regard to the lunacy of awarding the prize to such garbage:
> 
> "What's more upsetting is nobody knowledgeable or distinguished enough in the music community will say anything about it. They are castrated and useless."
> 
> Amen to that. I have been thinking the same thing for days. In these politically correct times I guess it is futile to wait for someone, perhaps along the lines of a John Corigliano, to step up and call this what it is: a purely political stunt that is an insult to every art music composer who won the award or was nominated in the past.


Sadly this award is just the tip of the iceberg. I don't know why I am bothering to write this but here we are on a CM music forum and there are how many non-classical music threads in which it is repeatedly proclaimed that it's all relative--hey, if you like it you like it. Using non-CM to trash CM. I'm sorry, but I think using the term "Western Art Music" gives in too much to those who despise baroque and classical music and the fundamentally ordered-worldview that this music reflects.

Also, I think it is unacceptable to call a woman a "B***H" and use the word "F***" every chance you get.

Something serious needs to be done and not just about awarding the prize to this piece of music. Are you aware that some people want to define music as "sound in time" to make the term more inclusive?! Sound in time.


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## janxharris (May 24, 2010)

ArsMusica said:


> ...an insult to every art music composer who won the award or was nominated in the past.


A charge some here would no doubt level at much modern avant-garde classical music.


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## Guest (Apr 26, 2018)

ArsMusica said:


> I found this Tweet in regard to the lunacy of awarding the prize to such garbage:
> 
> "What's more upsetting is nobody knowledgeable or distinguished enough in the music community will say anything about it. They are castrated and useless."
> 
> Amen to that. I have been thinking the same thing for days. In these politically correct times I guess it is futile to wait for someone, perhaps along the lines of a John Corigliano, to step up and call this what it is: a purely political stunt that is an insult to every art music composer who won the award or was nominated in the past.


Still 'garbage'? Why should anyone wish to give any lengthy consideration to an opinion so reductive, especially given that the supporters of such an opinion would expect us to hold valid their further opinion that there are other works and artists who should surely have gained the award, along with their view that the Pulitzer board has lost its mind?

Here's a picture of the Board from 2017, many of whom are also on the Board for 2018.

http://www.pulitzer.org/board/2017

Now compare with the Board for 1968 and you can spot the reason for the apparent change in approach...

http://www.pulitzer.org/board/1968

Clearly, a Board from the black and white era must be a fine, upstanding Board, gents with an ordered worldview.  (They endorsed a composition by George Crumb which seems a perfect example of 'sound in time').






Perhaps someone who is interested in actually discussing the controversy rather than stoking it might offer some information about the members of the 2018 Board.

http://www.pulitzer.org/board/2018

I know none of them, but I'm assuming that all the organisations they represent are all subversive, radical, anti-establishment...?


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## janxharris (May 24, 2010)

MacLeod said:


> Clearly, a Board from the black and white era must be a fine, upstanding Board, gents with an ordered worldview.  (They endorsed a composition by George Crumb which seems a perfect example of 'sound in time').


The Crumb piece is baffling.


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## Nereffid (Feb 6, 2013)

JosefinaHW said:


> Sadly this award is just the tip of the iceberg. I don't know why I am bothering to write this but here we are on a CM music forum and there are how many non-classical music threads in which it is repeatedly proclaimed that it's all relative--hey, if you like it you like it. Using non-CM to trash CM. I'm sorry, but I think using the term "Western Art Music" gives in too much to those who despise baroque and classical music and the fundamentally ordered-worldview that this music reflects.
> 
> Also, I think it is unacceptable to call a woman a "B***H" and use the word "F***" every chance you get.
> 
> Something serious needs to be done and not just about awarding the prize to this piece of music. Are you aware that some people want to define music as "sound in time" to make the term more inclusive?! Sound in time.


I'm sorry you're so upset. I mean, I disagree with the fundamentals of what you're saying, but I can understand why you would be so angry to see something you love being trashed or polluted, as you see it, by something you hate. But the people in classical music who've welcomed Kendrick Lamar's win aren't people who want to trash classical music! They love it - no doubt some of them as much as you do - but also think there's little harm in breaking down the walls that separate the classical world from other musics. They (and I) don't see it as a zero-sum game, where praising non-classical implies trashing classical: there's plenty of room for everyone.


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## Guest (Apr 26, 2018)

Nereffid said:


> They (and I) don't see it as a zero-sum game, where praising non-classical implies trashing classical: there's plenty of room for everyone.


A great post, thanks. One of the jury for the music prize was himself a previous Pulitzer winner, David Lang. I wonder if he feels he's trashed himself?


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## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

Perhaps KL's album has been given the award in order to belatedly compensate for the fact that the real ground-breaking rap albums were off-limits for selection thirty years ago. :devil:


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## JosefinaHW (Nov 21, 2015)

MacLeod said:


> _A great post, thanks_. One of the jury for the music prize was himself a previous Pulitzer winner, David Lang. I wonder if he feels he's trashed himself?


"A great post"?!! You have no problem with women being objectified and called any number of delightful profanities? And it isn't just about the debasement of women; it debases every man who sings, speaks, treats or thinks about women in this way.

@Nerefid
"There's little harm in breaking down the walls...." I'm not even going to give you the benefit of the doubt that you are being serious.

@MacLeod
I'm not going to genuflect before anyone JUST because they won a Pulitzer (or a Nobel) Prize. Does having won any prize confirm that a person has any wisdom?--certainly not. I'm not sure people today even think about what wisdom is and why it is so important.


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## janxharris (May 24, 2010)

JosefinaHW said:


> "A great post"?!! You have no problem with women being objectified and called any number of delightful profanities? And it isn't just about the debasement of women; it debases every man who sings, speaks, treats or thinks about women in this way.
> 
> @Nerefid
> "There's little harm in breaking down the walls...." I'm not even going to give you the benefit of the doubt that you are being serious.
> ...


Who are you suggesting is objectifying and profaning women?


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## Guest (Apr 27, 2018)

JosefinaHW said:


> "A great post"?!! You have no problem with women being objectified and called any number of delightful profanities? And it isn't just about the debasement of women; it debases every man who sings, speaks, treats or thinks about women in this way.


Try again to read the actual words of the actual post I was praising, which included, I thought, a very sympathetic response to you and your concerns.



JosefinaHW said:


> @MacLeod
> I'm not going to genuflect before anyone JUST because they won a Pulitzer (or a Nobel) Prize. Does having won any prize confirm that a person has any wisdom?--certainly not. I'm not sure people today even think about what wisdom is and why it is so important.


And you still miss my point. I'm not here to argue that Kendrick Lamar's work is of merit, but to consider the controversy that Pulitzer has attracted by giving it an award. Please note that in my posts, I have offered no opinion on Lamar or his work and said more than once that I've not listened to it. What I have offered is my thoughts on Pulitzer and its operation. I thought I'd essentially posed the question, "If Pulitzer has respect for its awards, why is its wisdom in such matters now being challenged?"


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## JosefinaHW (Nov 21, 2015)

Originally Posted by *JosefinaHW* 

"A great post"?!! You have no problem with women being objectified and called any number of delightful profanities? And it isn't just about the debasement of women; it debases every man who sings, speaks, treats or thinks about women in this way."

Try again to read the actual words of the actual post I was praising, which included, I thought, a very sympathetic response to your concerns.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------







Originally Posted by *JosefinaHW*  
Sadly this award is just the tip of the iceberg. I don't know why I am bothering to write this but here we are on a CM music forum and there are how many non-classical music threads in which it is repeatedly proclaimed that it's all relative--hey, if you like it you like it. Using non-CM to trash CM. I'm sorry, but I think using the term "Western Art Music" gives in too much to those who despise baroque and classical music and the fundamentally ordered-worldview that this music reflects.

Also, I think it is unacceptable to call a woman a "B***H" and use the word "F***" every chance you get.

Something serious needs to be done and not just about awarding the prize to this piece of music. Are you aware that some people want to define music as "sound in time" to make the term more inclusive?! Sound in time.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I'm sorry you're so upset. I mean, I disagree with the fundamentals of what you're saying, but I can understand why you would be so angry to see something you love being trashed or polluted, as you see it, by something you hate. But the people in classical music who've welcomed Kendrick Lamar's win aren't people who want to trash classical music! They love it - no doubt some of them as much as you do - but also think there's little harm in breaking down the walls that separate the classical world from other musics. They (and I) don't see it as a zero-sum game, where praising non-classical implies trashing classical: there's plenty of room for everyone. 
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Nerefid did not address any of my primary concerns. He states that the awarding of the prize was to "break down the walls that separate the classical world from other musics"--going from CM to rap is just too much of an extreme for me to believe that is why the prize was awarded to this singer.

I do NOT think that praising non-classical necessarily devalues classical music; not at all, I've always loved many original motion picture soundtracks, as just one example. HOWEVER, if you create thread after thread after thread of different types of non-classical music and then frequently use the differences of opinion to preach the idea that everything is relative; it all just comes down to each person liking what they like; so you think Corelli's music is boring, banish it as a relic. Mozart's too elegant for the world today, forget about him, etc., etc.... it's all relative.

And, since we will allow no limits to be placed upon our freedom, let's redefine music, too--sound in time. Then music becomes everything, so it becomes nothing.


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## Guest (Apr 27, 2018)

JosefinaHW said:


> Nerefid did not address any of my primary concerns.


And you appear not to have considered any of mine either. But what Nereffid did say was,



> I'm sorry you're so upset. [...] I can understand why you would be so angry to see something you love being trashed or polluted, as you see it, by something you hate.


I didn't quote this earlier, and perhaps I should have done, but I wanted to focus on the idea of Pulitzer trashing itself.



JosefinaHW said:


> HOWEVER, if you create thread after thread after thread of different types of non-classical music and then frequently use the differences of opinion to preach the idea that everything is relative; it all just comes down to each person liking what they like; so you think Corelli's music is boring, banish it as a relic. Mozart's too elegant for the world today, forget about him, etc., etc.... it's all relative.
> 
> And, since we will allow no limits to be placed upon our freedom, let's redefine music, too--sound in time. Then music becomes everything, so it becomes nothing.


Well since neither Nereffid or I have done this, how is it a relevant response to what we have posted in this thread?

Let's try one question at a time. Do you believe (or did you up until this year's award) that a Pulitzer award is a worthy award?


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## JosefinaHW (Nov 21, 2015)

Originally Posted by *JosefinaHW*  
HOWEVER, if you create thread after thread after thread of different types of non-classical music and then frequently use the differences of opinion to preach the idea that everything is relative; it all just comes down to each person liking what they like; so you think Corelli's music is boring, banish it as a relic. Mozart's too elegant for the world today, forget about him, etc., etc.... it's all relative.

And, since we will allow no limits to be placed upon our freedom, let's redefine music, too--sound in time. Then music becomes everything, so it becomes nothing.

Well since neither Nereffid or I have done this, how is it a relevant response to what we have posted in this thread?"

It's relevant because both of your posts were critical of mine. So I repeated part of what I was saying.


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## Nereffid (Feb 6, 2013)

JosefinaHW said:


> HOWEVER, if you create thread after thread after thread of different types of non-classical music and then frequently use the differences of opinion to preach the idea that everything is relative; it all just comes down to each person liking what they like; so you think Corelli's music is boring, banish it as a relic. Mozart's too elegant for the world today, forget about him, etc., etc.... it's all relative.
> 
> And, since we will allow no limits to be placed upon our freedom, let's redefine music, too--sound in time. Then music becomes everything, so it becomes nothing.


1. I've never created "thread after thread...". I seem to have been caught in some sort of crossfire, though I honestly don't know who you're actually shooting at.
2. Each person likes what they like. So if I think Corelli's music is boring (I don't), then I might personally regard it as a relic (I don't), but part of the whole "everything is relative" deal means I don't get to banish it. _Nobody_ gets to banish it, because banishment just isn't on the table. The flip side of me saying it's OK for people to like hip-hop is that I also say it's OK for _you_ to like the music _you_ like.
3. "we will allow no limits to be placed upon our freedom": in this case it's just the freedom to admire music outside an imposed set of rules. This isn't the UN Convention on Human Rights...
4. "sound in time". This doesn't worry me, but it clearly worries you. I'm comfortable with the notion that some people will create (and have created) things that they consider music but I don't. The collected works of John Cage or Karlheinz Stockhausen don't diminish Josquin or Beethoven or whoever. I really can't take seriously the notion that music will become "nothing" or anything like it. (Edit to add: there has been some sporadically stimulating discussion here in the past about "what is music?" "sound in time" is a pretty good one.)
5. For the record, I don't like it when men call women b!tches. I also have problems with _Cosi fan tutte_, so there's that. (And _also_ for the record, the way you replied to Macleod implied that he was praising me for denigrating women. Not cool for either of us.) As for f---, well, I live in Dublin, where the f---in' word f--- is used like f---in' takin' a f---in' breath. Lamar's whole album doesn't compete with what you can hear while sitting on a bus for five minutes, so as criticisms of his work go, this one's not a major issue I think.



MacLeod said:


> One of the jury for the music prize was himself a previous Pulitzer winner, David Lang. I wonder if he feels he's trashed himself?


David Lang's one of my favourite living composers, and I urge anyone outraged by this year's prize to listen to his winning _Little Match Girl Passion_. It might (a) restore your faith in the Pulitzer, and (b) prompt you to think seriously about why he's OK with Kendrick Lamar but you're not. (Or, I guess, (c) give you some more music to complain about...)


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## runssical (Jan 20, 2017)

Awarding the Pulitzer to someone devoid of any artistic merit or talent represents a further deterioration in the support for serious music in the USA. This is an embarrassment. 

I listened to rap in my youth. I know it inside and out. I even wrote my own lyrics. Eventually, I moved on to film scores and then on to classicalmusic. 

Being on both sides now let me categorically state that rap music is not art. It's pure garbage.


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## janxharris (May 24, 2010)

runssical said:


> Awarding the Pulitzer to someone devoid of any artistic merit or talent represents a further deterioration in the support for serious music in the USA. This is an embarrassment.
> 
> I listened to rap in my youth. I know it inside and out. I even wrote my own lyrics. Eventually, I moved on to film scores and then on to classicalmusic.
> 
> Being on both sides now let me categorically state that rap music is not art. It's pure garbage.


And many that love classical music would express such an opinion about the avant-garde stuff. Nobody has the authority to pronounce as if from an objective stand point.


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## janxharris (May 24, 2010)

Nereffid said:


> David Lang's one of my favourite living composers, and I urge anyone outraged by this year's prize to listen to his winning _Little Match Girl Passion_. It might (a) restore your faith in the Pulitzer, and (b) prompt you to think seriously about why he's OK with Kendrick Lamar but you're not. (Or, I guess, (c) give you some more music to complain about...)


Little Match Girl Passion


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## Nereffid (Feb 6, 2013)

That's 3 people now whose sole or only recent contribution to TC has been to express their anger on this topic. I hope you guys stick around and have opinions on other, less controversial, topics too!


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## Guest (Apr 27, 2018)

Nereffid said:


> That's 3 people now whose sole or only recent contribution to TC has been to express their anger on this topic. I hope you guys stick around and have opinions on other, less controversial, topics too!


The Pulitzer Price committee has every right to decide to whom they'll award music prizes, just as we have every right to decide that the Prize no longer needs to be taken seriously. Simples.


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## Room2201974 (Jan 23, 2018)

runssical said:


> Being on both sides now let me categorically state that rap music is not art. It's pure garbage.


Does this mean your _Hamilton_ tickets are up for sale?


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## Nereffid (Feb 6, 2013)

Christabel said:


> The Pulitzer Price committee has every right to decide to whom they'll award music prizes, just as we have every right to decide that the Prize no longer needs to be taken seriously. Simples.


I'm not complaining about the fact that people are complaining. Just intrigued by the influx of new posters.

So, did _you_ take the Pulitzer seriously up until 10 days ago?


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## Guest (Apr 27, 2018)

Nereffid said:


> I'm not complaining about the fact that people are complaining. Just intrigued by the influx of new posters.
> 
> So, did _you_ take the Pulitzer seriously up until 10 days ago?


In the back of my mind I always regarded it as something which must be important, given the famous names associated with it in the past, eg. George Gershwin, just to name one. Not any more.


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## Tristan (Jan 5, 2013)

Nereffid said:


> I'm not complaining about the fact that people are complaining. Just intrigued by the influx of new posters.
> 
> So, did _you_ take the Pulitzer seriously up until 10 days ago?


I've been paying attention the literary Pulitzer prizes for several years now, but I never gave much notice to the music prize until this year. If the intent was--at least in part--to get people's attention, it certainly succeeded.

For the record, I'm a fan of Lamar, and I thought the choice was odd (same with the choice of Bob Dylan for the Nobel in literature), but I'm not incensed by it.

However, my friend, who is not a classical fan but is a hip hop fan, felt the award was a bad idea because it was the Pulitzer's "lame attempt at being relevant" after ignoring the hip hop world for so long. So...there you have someone who dislikes it but for the complete opposite reason as most people in this thread.

Just my $0.02


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## Guest (Apr 27, 2018)

Are our thoughts meant to be about Pulitzer, Lamar or both, given this is in a CM thread?

Regarding the prize, my thoughts are the same as with all such prizes; given the amount of new music in a 12 month period, it seems rather unfair to pick out one over all the rest. Even more so if Pulitzer are looking to broaden their remit.

Regarding Lamar; hip hop never having been of interest to me, I've never heard of him. So now I've heard 4 minutes...






...and I thought it was pretty good; but like any other choice: this over all the rest?


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## Room2201974 (Jan 23, 2018)

I've found this thread to be more than slightly behind the curve in the arc of history. Prior to this year a rapper had already won a Pulitzer Prize (for drama, although the work is also music). Same rapper has three Tonys, three Grammys, an Emmy, two Oliviers, and a MacArthur Fellowship.


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## Nereffid (Feb 6, 2013)

Room2201974 said:


> I've found this thread to be more than slightly behind the curve in the arc of history.


Well, a lot of classical listeners haven't gotten over _Schoenberg_ yet...


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## Guest (Apr 27, 2018)

Lamar has won 12 Grammys, if one cares for such baubles


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

dogen said:


> Lamar has won 12 Grammys, if one cares for such baubles


John Williams has won 23, which I'm sure must be significant.


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## janxharris (May 24, 2010)

dogen said:


> Are our thoughts meant to be about Pulitzer, Lamar or both, given this is in a CM thread?
> 
> Regarding the prize, my thoughts are the same as with all such prizes; given the amount of new music in a 12 month period, it seems rather unfair to pick out one over all the rest. Even more so if Pulitzer are looking to broaden their remit.
> 
> ...


just saying he didn't win for this


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## janxharris (May 24, 2010)

Sounds to me that Lamar's previous album - To Pimp A Butterfly - has some interesting music going on.


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## Guest (Apr 27, 2018)

janxharris said:


> just saying he didn't win for this


Yes, it was just the first thing that popped up. But if I'd got something off Damn my point would be the same: I'm not sure about seemingly elevating one album above all others; whatever the album.


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## Guest (Apr 27, 2018)

Room2201974 said:


> I've found this thread to be more than slightly behind the curve in the arc of history. Prior to this year a rapper had already won a Pulitzer Prize (for drama, although the work is also music). Same rapper has three Tonys, three Grammys, an Emmy, two Oliviers, and a MacArthur Fellowship.


That would be for "Hamilton", would it not? Ah, political correctness....


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## Room2201974 (Jan 23, 2018)

Christabel said:


> That would be for "Hamilton", would it not? Ah, political correctness....


What specifically is politically correct?


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## Guest (Apr 28, 2018)

runssical said:


> Awarding the Pulitzer to someone devoid of any artistic merit or talent represents a further deterioration in the support for serious music in the USA. This is an embarrassment.





Christabel said:


> The Pulitzer Price committee has every right to decide to whom they'll award music prizes, just as we have every right to decide that the Prize no longer needs to be taken seriously. Simples.


Obviously, if one has never paid attention to Pulitzer, one might wonder what the fuss is about. If one always thought Pulitzer had no credibility ("I mean, Elliot Carter for goodness sake??"), awarding Lamar would just confirm that view from the anti-rap side of the debate. Then there are those who didn't know that Pulitzer's music award is not for 'classical' and are now embarrassed at their ignorance.

The position of those who did think Pulitzer had credibility - until now - puzzles me the most. Why would a distinguished jury and board take collective leave of their senses? Why "political correctness" _this _year when equally worthy artists would have met that agenda in years gone by? Why would Pulitzer risk trashing its own credibility just to make a point? My answer would be (if I was in this group of people that hitherto had been a believer in the value of Pulitzer) that they haven't lost their senses, nor are they making a political point, but they genuinely see merit in the music; it's just that I don't.

Let me apply this problem to another field of art criticism, cinema. I like Mark Kermode, film critic. Here's an example of his work, a review of _Interstellar _which he liked, but I didn't.

https://www.theguardian.com/film/2014/nov/09/interstellar-review-sci-fi-spectacle-delivers

Just because he likes films I don't, doesn't lead me to conclude that he has lost all reason and judgement. Nor do I persist in the view that the film he's liked that I don't has no merit whatsoever. It prompts me to reexamine my opinion. I would usually conclude that, strange to say, we're not talking about objective criteria, but personal responses. Pulitzer is the same, regardless of the implication in all the tradition, the fanfare, the self-importance that it must surely be an objectively justifiable award. It's just a bunch of journalists, backed by a bunch of money, with a bunch of opinions to assert. You can find other judges and juries with equally valid opinions who wouldn't give Lamar houseroom, never mind cover it in glory.

What's the biggie?


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## vmartell (Feb 9, 2017)

Nereffid said:


> It's not my kind of music, but I'm delighted he won, not least because the news might give some bigot a stroke.





JosefinaHW said:


> Wishing a stroke on those we dislike or disagree with.... very progressive! Let's set it to some music by Bach, Haydn or Mozart.


Sorry for replying for a post so early in the thread - but it has to be said: I am fine with disagreement, I respect disagreement - a bigot is a different thing - an absolute evil. It is ok disapprove it, unequivocally, 100%.

v


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## Guest (Apr 28, 2018)

MacLeod said:


> Clearly, a Board from the black and white era must be a fine, upstanding Board, gents with an ordered worldview.  (They endorsed a composition by George Crumb which seems a perfect example of 'sound in time').


That is a really good piece. Thank you for posting that MacLeod.


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## janxharris (May 24, 2010)

Tulse said:


> That is a really good piece. Thank you for posting that MacLeod.


I seem to struggle to appreciate practically all of the modern avant-garde pieces suggested here. I've listened to Webern's symphony about 30 times now and remain nonplussed. It must be a personal thing.

I don't get the Crumb piece either. My loss I guess.


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## Guest (Apr 28, 2018)

janxharris said:


> I seem to struggle to appreciate practically all of the modern avant-garde pieces suggested here. I've listened to Webern's symphony about 30 times now and remain nonplussed. It must be a personal thing.
> 
> I don't get the Crumb piece either. My loss I guess.


That is a shame. Webern is very old now. Have you listened to any contemporary works such as those by Abrahamsen, Gubaidulina, Rautavaara etc? You might get on better with them.


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## janxharris (May 24, 2010)

I wonder, is the definition 'sound in time' a de facto criticism of such music? - along the lines of, 'anyone can produce a series of tones ordered in time'?

What exactly distinguishes Crumb's piece? Any offers?


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## Guest (Apr 28, 2018)

Yes the phrase is meaningless. All music is sound in time so it is used by those who want to distinguish between music (before Schoenberg) and non-music (after Schoenberg).


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## janxharris (May 24, 2010)

Tulse said:


> That is a shame. Webern is very old now. Have you listened to any contemporary works such as those by Abrahamsen, Gubaidulina, Rautavaara etc? You might get on better with them.


Only Rautavaara. I remember quite enjoying his eight symphony, though found it a bit lacking in melody.


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## janxharris (May 24, 2010)

Tulse said:


> Yes the phrase is meaningless. All music is sound in time so it is used by those who want to distinguish between music (before Schoenberg) and non-music (after Schoenberg).


Non-music...


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## janxharris (May 24, 2010)

Tulse said:


> That is a shame. Webern is very old now. Have you listened to any contemporary works such as those by Abrahamsen, Gubaidulina, Rautavaara etc? You might get on better with them.


Hans Abrahamsen?

This is interesting: Schnee


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## janxharris (May 24, 2010)

i.e. 'Snow'..................


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## Guest (Apr 28, 2018)

janxharris said:


> Hans Abrahamsen?
> 
> This is interesting: Schnee


Yes, Schnee is good. 'Let me tell you' is also worth checking out.


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## janxharris (May 24, 2010)

Tulse said:


> Yes, Schnee is good. 'Let me tell you' is also worth checking out.


Thanks. Will do.


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## Nereffid (Feb 6, 2013)

MacLeod said:


> The position of those who did think Pulitzer had credibility - until now - puzzles me the most. Why would a distinguished jury and board take collective leave of their senses? Why "political correctness" _this _year when equally worthy artists would have met that agenda in years gone by? Why would Pulitzer risk trashing its own credibility just to make a point? My answer would be (if I was in this group of people that hitherto had been a beliver in the value of Pulitzer) that they haven't lost their senses, nor are they making a political point, but they genuinely see merit in the music; it's just that I don't.


Early in the thread I linked to an interview with Dana Canedy, the prize administrator. It included this exchange:



> *DAMN. was hailed as a masterpiece by many, but really he's been knocking out classics for a minute. Why now?*
> 
> I think we could say that in any category, particularly one like music, where people have been around a while. This just seems like the right moment; the work was on the jury's radar and it proceeded from there.
> 
> ...


It doesn't seem like "political correctness" (oh that term...) at all but I think it's fair to say there's lately been something in the air, as it were, where it suddenly becomes easier to consider the unprecedented and say _why not?_


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## Guest (Apr 28, 2018)

Nereffid said:


> I think it's fair to say there's lately been something in the air, as it were, where it suddenly becomes easier to consider the unprecedented and say _why not?_


Thanks for posting the exchange, as I came into this thread more than halfway through I think, and probably overlooked it.

Finding out something of the workings of such juries is always interesting, which is why I've spent some time too in trying to find out how Pulitzer works. As most tend to agree here where we spend a lot of time ranking, awarding, proclaiming to a greater or lesser extent, it's the differences between us that seem most worth exploring. As has been suggested in another thread, we can all feel warm in our joint appreciation of something we agree on...but I find I soon run out of things to say along the lines of, "...and this bit, where the orchestra..it's just sublime, isn't it?" and you say, "Yeah...yeah...and then when it goes...it's just...oooh!"

But disagree about something, there's hours of fun to be had discussing and trading, with a little provocative banter, and on a Forum such as this, with several people at once all with slightly or wildly differing things to say. There's always a chance that you might find something new to listen to, and that you might offer to someone else something they wouldn't previously have bothered with. (The anti-argumentative claim this is just about "winning" or "converting".)

That's one reason why some of the more peremptory reactions are so disappointing: it shortcuts the human response, diminishing it. At the risk of implying something negative about those who have no time to waste on Lamar or the genre generally, I want to just recall the real, genuine occasion when my stepfather and mother impressed upon me when I was about 11 or 12 and described something as 'rubbish' (I don't remember whether it was a book, film, TV prog, movie). "No-one will pay much attention to your opinions if that's all you have to say." I felt somewhat bullied that they tried to insist on my explaining myself, but the notion stuck, and I passed it on to my sons (I hope without making them feel bullied).

Oh, just realised I actually set out to say something else altogether and got sidetracked...


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## Guest (Apr 28, 2018)

Nereffid said:


> there's lately been something in the air,


...lately, there may be something in the air, but equally, there's been something in the air over some considerable time. Compare the photos of the jury from 1968 and 2017 and it seems reasonable to assume that the gender balance (and age too I suspect) which has shifted in that 50 years has been partly a response to a whole number of 'somethings' in the air. Perhaps someone here might recall if thre was any controversy when that first woman was admitted to the Board?


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## Nereffid (Feb 6, 2013)

MacLeod said:


> ...lately, there may be something in the air, but equally, there's been something in the air over some considerable time. Compare the photos of the jury from 1968 and 2017 and it seems reasonable to assume that the gender balance (and age too I suspect) which has shifted in that 50 years has been partly a response to a whole number of 'somethings' in the air. Perhaps someone here might recall if thre was any controversy when that first woman was admitted to the Board?


In 1965 the music jury decided that no work should win the prize, but recommended instead that Duke Ellington receive a special citation for his life's work. The board refused. 
While looking for more information about that, I came across this page: http://www.pulitzer.org/news/pulitzer-prize-music-history-project in which I read:



> In a recent review of the 2017 Music Prize finalists for The Nation, critic and academic David Hajdu adroitly characterized the award's historical provenance as a reward for "irrelevance bestowed by an insular, largely male club of aesthetic isolationists to its own membership."
> Unfortunately, the historical record largely validates Hajdu's assertion. For the first fifty years of the Prize's history, frequent jurors (prior to 1975, a group of musicologists, critics, and composers that was almost exclusively white and male) were often drawn from or inclined to reappear as winners in the Music and Criticism categories. ...
> Although women played an integral role in its administration, it is unconscionable that a woman failed to receive the award until 1983; even more discomfortingly, the first African American would not follow until 1996. The quintessentially American form of jazz would only enter the pantheon a year later, while other important idioms in the glorious mosaic of American music (from funk to to bluegrass to salsa) remain conspicuous in their absence to this day.
> Recognizing this problem, the Pulitzer Prize Board embarked on an audacious reform program between 1996 and 2004, gradually expanding eligibility from "larger forms" (almost exclusively derived from the canon of Western art music) to any "distinguished musical composition by an American that has had its first performance or recording in the United States during the year." This has resulted in a flowering of diverse winners (including two African Americans, two Asian Americans, two members of the LGBTQIA+ community and five women) who ambitious works stand provocatively at the postmodern aperture between the popular and the vernacular.


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## eugeneonagain (May 14, 2017)

Who is Kendrick Lamar? I've never heard of him.


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## Larkenfield (Jun 5, 2017)

Rap music gives an important voice to the African-American community, for better or worse, and some do it better than others. It can be and has been raised to an Art, including by those outside that community. How many critics here have black faces when they look into a mirror? While no one is obligated to hear it, and the music doesn't particularly interest me at this time in my life, I do not believe it should be condemned. Maybe it's the terrible situation that some of these people are in that's the source of the crudeness and obscenities, and the music is only a reflection of that.


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

ArsMusica said:


> He is a creator of musical garbage...wait, take out the word 'musical'...he just creates garbage.


No, it is certainly music. I don't like it, but it sure beats the syrupy stuff that came from folks like the Carpenters and Barry Manilow in my humble opinion. Just because you don't like something does not remove it from the musical category.


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## Haydn70 (Jan 8, 2017)

The decision was pure politics; politically-correct politics.

I found an excellent comment about the decision:

"Obviously, it was a politically-correct decision, in an attempt to surf on the wave of populism, helping – with a symbolic gesture – the tyranny of the majority to exterminate any trace of the idea of artistic quality which is, in the equalized world view, an unfair barrier of professionalism that should be removed so that also the underdeveloped can share in the glamour of art, without needing to acquire the necessary capacities."

Spot on.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

From the 2017 year-end Nielsen report:


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## Haydn70 (Jan 8, 2017)

KenOC said:


> From the 2017 year-end Nielsen report:


I knew things were very grim but I didn't realize they were this grim. So sad. But then what else can one expect from the public?


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## Guest (Apr 29, 2018)

KenOC said:


> From the 2017 year-end Nielsen report:


Presumably this guy will be in the running for the next Pulitzer Prize; that's fair.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-04-...efending-his-support-for-donald-trump/9707496


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## Guest (Apr 29, 2018)

ArsMusica said:


> The decision was pure politics; politically-correct politics.
> 
> I found an excellent comment about the decision:
> 
> ...


I saw an interview on TV recently with a very well known visual artist who had submitted a painting to a prize committee in our country most of the last few years. He was always rejected (though a significant artist who makes money) because, he claims, his paintings aren't making an ideological point; they're not about women, minorities, indigenous people, those with handicaps. It's completely risible.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Christabel said:


> I saw an interview on TV recently with a very well known visual artist who had submitted a painting to a prize committee in our country most of the last few years. He was always rejected (though a significant artist who makes money) because, he claims, his paintings aren't making an ideological point; they're not about women, minorities, indigenous people, those with handicaps. It's completely risible.


To your point, I posted this elsewhere a couple of days ago.
---------------
"After more than 100 years, the Stephen Foster statue in Pittsburgh has been removed"

A 118-year-old statue of "Oh! Susanna" songwriter and Pittsburgh native Stephen Foster was removed by city workers on Thursday morning… The statue has drawn controversy because it depicts Foster with a slave at his feet, strumming a banjo.

…"Hopefully it will be replaced with a statue of an African-American woman," McNulty said.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/a...tue-in-pittsburgh-has-been-removed/ar-AAwmpHd

​


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## Guest (Apr 29, 2018)

KenOC said:


> To your point, I posted this elsewhere a couple of days ago.
> ---------------
> "After more than 100 years, the Stephen Foster statue in Pittsburgh has been removed"
> 
> ...


Thank you for your courageous stance in posting this comment. We, unfortunately, live in the age of Thought Police where useful idiots try to shut down any alternative narrative put forward - only it turns out they aren't so 'useful'. Ugly times indeed.

In your wildest imagination could you ever envisage a rapper like this ever being considered for an award? Seriously:

https://mic.com/articles/189089/kan...erson-another-conservative-thinker#.ClUilpGQA

Apropos the removal of the Foster statue; as was pointed out recently at a university protest, it's the privileged people - mostly students - who are doing all of this. I don't know about you, but I wouldn't want to live in a world where 19 year olds think they know what's best for us all!!! As Jordan Peterson might say, 'they were only 12 seven years ago"!!


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## Guest (Apr 29, 2018)

ArsMusica said:


> The decision was pure politics; politically-correct politics.
> 
> I found an excellent comment about the decision:
> 
> ...


Well you certainly 'found' a comment. So did I, but not from the btl of Slipped Disc.



> DAMN is an album of surface sheen and hidden depths, where words and music operate in beautiful synchronicity, a constantly unfolding dance that lends each new approach a sense of investigation and revelation. It is dazzling.


https://www.telegraph.co.uk/music/what-to-listen-to/kendrick-lamar-star-hip-hop-has-waiting-damn-review/

Since your comment is no more valid than mine, we can safely rule it out as evidence (never mind proof) that the award was political.


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## Guest (Apr 29, 2018)

MacLeod said:


> Well you certainly 'found' a comment. So did I, but not from the btl of slipped disc.
> 
> https://www.telegraph.co.uk/music/w...k-lamar-star-hip-hop-has-waiting-damn-review/


I tend to think of Rodgers & Hart and Lerner and Loewe and Stephen Sondheim as having words and music of "beautiful synchronicity". Rap music, not so much. I wonder what the discerning readership of the Telegraph will make of that review?


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## Guest (Apr 29, 2018)

KenOC said:


> To your point, I posted this elsewhere a couple of days ago.
> ---------------
> "After more than 100 years, the Stephen Foster statue in Pittsburgh has been removed"
> etc​


​I'm not sure what the relevance is of this story to either Christabel's post or the Pulitzer story. Would you elaborate?



Christabel said:


> I wonder what the discerning readership of the Telegraph will make of that review?


Not much. Only three btl comments, all positive.


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## janxharris (May 24, 2010)

ArsMusica said:


> I knew things were very grim but I didn't realize they were this grim. So sad. But then what else can one expect from the public?


You can expect from them a viewpoint equally as valid as yours.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Classical music fans have been fighting a rear-guard action against more popular genres for over 200 years. Since the turn of the last century they have concentrated their attacks on music with a perceived African influence. Gradually we accept Joplin, Ellington, Coltrane, and others, years or decades after others enjoy their music. And so it goes.

As a result, we're now at one percent of market. Keep up the good fight!


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## janxharris (May 24, 2010)

MacLeod said:


> Not much. Only three btl comments, all positive.


BTL = Below The Line?

As in comments below the blog, article etc?


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## Guest (Apr 29, 2018)

KenOC said:


> Classical music fans have been fighting a rear-guard action against more popular genres for over 200 years.


Not this fan (and not just because I've not been around for 200 years!)


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## Guest (Apr 29, 2018)

janxharris said:


> BTL = Below The Line?
> 
> As in comments below the blog, article etc?


Yes. Hop over to Slipped Disc and see what Mr Lebrecht had to say, and you'll find some interesting comments btl, including "John Borstlap's" 'it was a politically correct decision'.

http://slippedisc.com/2018/04/pulit...lassical-work-was-prizeworthy/#comment-427740


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## janxharris (May 24, 2010)

MacLeod said:


> Yes. Hop over to Slipped Disc and see what Mr Lebrecht had to say, and you'll find some interesting comments btl, including "John Borstlap's" 'it was a politically correct decision'.
> 
> http://slippedisc.com/2018/04/pulit...lassical-work-was-prizeworthy/#comment-427740


It's no surprise that Mr. Borstlap further reveals:



> A comment which demonstrates the point. It is a misunderstanding that artistic quality is a mere matter of taste. If this were so, then pop music, rap, hiphop, etc. would exist on the same quality plane as the classical repertoire of the last couple of hundreds of years. It is a modern, populist view, result of ignorance and, indeed, bad taste, or rather: the absence of any taste whatsoever.


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## janxharris (May 24, 2010)

It's possible such views are the fruit of sour grapes.


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## Guest (Apr 29, 2018)

Here's another pair of opinions, discussing the controversy in the NY Times...



> Meanwhile, wasn't the music Pulitzer, for many decades, largely the captive of a small, insular academic music scene? The Pulitzers refused a special citation for Duke Ellington, who never won the award. They ignored jazz - artistically subtle and sublime, commercially endangered - until Wynton Marsalis finally got a Pulitzer in 1997. They were unconscionably late - looking awfully cliquish to me - even in recognizing Minimalism: Steve Reich got his Pulitzer in 2009, not in 1977 for "Music for 18 Musicians." To me, it looks like some of the squawks are complaints about exclusivity being breached.


and



> I don't think there is a universal desire for the Nobel to reward obscurity; I'm sure many who were skeptical of Mr. Dylan's win would have been just fine with the best-selling Philip Roth. But it has felt for decades like an integral part of the Pulitzer's mission is to shine a light on corners of music that are otherwise nearly ignored by the broader culture. The award has acted as a reminder - though long a way too stylistically limited one - that artmaking exists beyond the Billboard (and now Spotify) charts. "DAMN." is surely deserving, yet its victory feels like another sign of the world, and therefore the musical culture, we live in - embodied by the streaming services, through which the biggest artists and albums get more and more, and everyone else gets a smaller piece of the pie. This system is corrosive to music, period - classical, jazz, hip-hop, everything.


https://www.nytimes.com/2018/04/17/arts/music/kendrick-lamar-music-pulitzer-prize-damn.html


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

> "DAMN." is surely deserving, yet its victory feels like another sign of the world, and therefore the musical culture, we live in - embodied by the streaming services, through which the biggest artists and albums get more and more, and everyone else gets a smaller piece of the pie. This system is corrosive to music, period - classical, jazz, hip-hop, everything.


But…the variety of music available is now greater than ever, and the price cheaper. Is the concentration of music power in fewer artists really a problem of the delivery system, or a problem with listeners? In fact, is it a problem at all? The quoted comment sounds like poorly thought out hand-wringing.​


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## janxharris (May 24, 2010)

It appears slippedisc.com is owned by _the_ Norman Lebrecht.


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## laurie (Jan 12, 2017)

deleted ~ decided against getting involved in the arguing ....


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

laurie said:


> ...But sure ~ just keep right on with the hateful ranting & raving, & reinforce (in quick-setting cement) the damaging stereotype of Classical as being the preferred Music of narrow-minded, elitist & condescending snobs everywhere.


Whew! I'm _so _glad to hear it's only a stereotype. Uh...that's _all _it is, right?


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## janxharris (May 24, 2010)

The "hateful ranting & raving...of narrow-minded, elitist & condescending snobs" is found in all music genres is it not?


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## Guest (Apr 29, 2018)

janxharris said:


> The "hateful ranting & raving...of narrow-minded, elitist & condescending snobs" is found in all music genres is it not?


Emotionalism isn't an argument, nor was it ever. Please try not to be an 'emotional haemophiliac'. (Bill Maher recently coined that excellent phrase, pointing to its lack-of-argument properties.) It shares a space with 'you're a racist, homophobe, bigot, transphobic..." on and on it goes....


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## janxharris (May 24, 2010)

Christabel said:


> Emotionalism isn't an argument, nor was it ever. Please try not to be an 'emotional haemophiliac'. (Bill Maher recently coined that excellent phrase, pointing to its lack-of-argument properties.) It shares a space with 'you're a racist, homophobe, bigot, transphobic..." on and on it goes....


I'm not following you Christabel.


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## Clairvoyance Enough (Jul 25, 2014)

I don't know. If this was some truly progressive hip hop album with all sorts of kooky counterpoint and crazy rhythms interwoven with creative lyrics I could see the argument that this backlash is just snobbery. But it's just some mildly atmospheric beats underneath rapping that is perhaps somewhat effective as a percussive layer and mediocre at best poetically. It's not as rhythmically static as most rap is but to say it has "rhythmic dynamism" in a general sense seems like a stretch to me.

As a fan of hip hop I slightly disapprove just because I feel like the artists within it are capable of so much more, and highlighting yet another album with so many songs that are just the same 5 seconds looped for 3 minutes seems counterproductive. Just the other day I took a liking to two rap songs; I enjoyed them for precisely two days and now I feel like I'm done listening to them for the rest of my life. That's how I felt about this album.


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## TurnaboutVox (Sep 22, 2013)

Some posts have been deleted.

Reasoned argument is of course encouraged, but calling artists or works 'garbage' or 'rubbish', or similar terms, is not, and may be removed, especially if it is used repeatedly as it can be provocative and we may view it as 'trolling'.


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## Blancrocher (Jul 6, 2013)

TurnaboutVox said:


> Some posts have been deleted.
> 
> Reasoned argument is of course encouraged, but calling artists or works 'garbage' or 'rubbish', or similar terms, is not, and may be removed, especially if it is used repeatedly as it can be provocative and we may view it as 'trolling'.


It would be a shame if we couldn't at least call various prizes and awards pieces of crap, though I will abide by the rules.


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## Nereffid (Feb 6, 2013)

TurnaboutVox said:


> Some posts have been deleted.
> 
> Reasoned argument is of course encouraged, but calling artists or works 'garbage' or 'rubbish', or similar terms, is not, and may be removed, especially if it is used repeatedly as it can be provocative and we may view it as 'trolling'.


This is disappointing. I agree with Macleod (and his parents!) about not taking seriously someone who can only say "that's rubbish", but I don't see why their posts need to be removed.

Edited to add: I've checked to see what posts were removed and I noticed that one included a personal comment directed at me. For the record, while acknowledging the rules, I object to its removal. I took no offense, and the only provocation it elicited was a shrug emoji.


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## eugeneonagain (May 14, 2017)

Christabel said:


> I saw an interview on TV recently with a very well known visual artist who had submitted a painting to a prize committee in our country most of the last few years. He was always rejected (though a significant artist who makes money) because, he claims, his paintings aren't making an ideological point; they're not about women, minorities, indigenous people, those with handicaps. It's completely risible.


I, too, find it completely risible, though I suspect not for the same reasons. Unless the "very well-known artist" can actually prove his accusation beyond wheeling-out the usual reliance upon 'PC world gone mad', it's just sour grapes. Maybe his art is saleable, but exceptionally boring.

Many prizes have transient meaning, that's likely as much the case for Kendrick Lamar, Ravel's five-time failure to win the Prix de Rome or Obama's premature Nobel Prize. Or Heineken's 1880-something prize for its beer (no subsequent prizes).


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## Guest (Apr 29, 2018)

Nereffid said:


> This is disappointing. I agree with Macleod (and his parents!) about not taking seriously someone who can only say "that's rubbish", but I don't see why their posts need to be removed.
> 
> Edited to add: I've checked to see what posts were removed and I noticed that one included a personal comment directed at me. For the record, while acknowledging the rules, I object to its removal. I took no offense, and the only provocation it elicited was a shrug emoji.


I'm afraid it's symptomatic of the nanny state mentality; you need to teach the children a lesson and mummy and daddy know best. Censorship is the order of the day in the 21st century; haven't you noticed? And, of course, it protects the arts community from criticism courtesy of political correctness.


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## eugeneonagain (May 14, 2017)

Christabel said:


> I'm afraid it's symptomatic of the nanny state mentality; you need to teach the children a lesson and mummy and daddy know best. *Censorship is the order of the day in the 21st century*; haven't you noticed? And, of course, it protects the arts community from criticism courtesy of political correctness.


If this is the case why is there no end to the increasing number of bores who keep trotting out this unsophisticated and unsupported claim? It's all I seem to see on the internet these days and it produced the current White House incumbent. Hardly swept under the carpet.


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## Nereffid (Feb 6, 2013)

Christabel said:


> I'm afraid it's symptomatic of the nanny state mentality; you need to teach the children a lesson and mummy and daddy know best. Censorship is the order of the day in the 21st century; haven't you noticed? And, of course, it protects the arts community from criticism courtesy of political correctness.


I'm not trying to make any larger point about this, other than that in this particular instance I feel the moderators have been heavy-handed.

Ah, good old political correctness, the cause of all our problems. As Stewart Lee once said, "You know, you can't do anything in this country anymore, mate. It's political correctness gone mad. You can't even write racial abuse in excrement on someone's car without the politically correct brigade jumping down your throat."


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## Room2201974 (Jan 23, 2018)

Air Force Discloses Identity Of Mysterious Sound - Groom Lake, Nevada (AP) - In an unprecedented move today the Air Force has gone public with the identity of a mysterious sound heard worldwide earlier this month. Air Force spokesman Donald Keyhole III stated, "Initially we were baffled by the strange sound that some have called lamentations that occurred worldwide on April 16, 2018. But then we ran the sound through our HAL 6000 Big Cyan Computer, and the mysterious sound has been identified as the sound of many inverted retrograde tone rows being passed over, followed by the sound of vacuum sadness and hurt butt feelings." Keyhole continued by saying, "While these lamentations seem to pose no immediate threat to the general public we do note the hurt butt feelings are stronger in areas where people have been born on third base and think they hit a triple."
In a related story, Pentagon spokesman John Conigliano has stated that the Department of Defense is working on an antidote for the lamentations. "We are working on bringing back the mired pool of rotating jurors who will once again pick their favorite friends to avoid this terrible sadness. We must close the lamentations gap as swiftly as possible," he stated. Meanwhile, the CDC has issued an alert for the hurt butt feelings. The only known antidote is 45 mililiters of Heavens Door® Whiskey.


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

I don't pay much attention to music awards, so I'm neutral concerning the deleted posts. No big deal.


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## TurnaboutVox (Sep 22, 2013)

Nereffid said:


> This is disappointing. I agree with Macleod (and his parents!) about not taking seriously someone who can only say "that's rubbish", but I don't see why their posts need to be removed.
> 
> Edited to add: I've checked to see what posts were removed and I noticed that one included a personal comment directed at me. For the record, while acknowledging the rules, I object to its removal. I took no offense, and the only provocation it elicited was a shrug emoji.


 I apologise if people are disappointed by our actions in this thread, and acknowledge your position, Nereffid. However, we did receive several complaints about posts in the thread and some contravened forum rules. We can't please everyone all the time.

~ T-Vox


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## Guest (Apr 29, 2018)

Nereffid said:


> I'm not trying to make any larger point about this, other than that in this particular instance I feel the moderators have been heavy-handed.
> 
> Ah, good old political correctness, the cause of all our problems. As Stewart Lee once said, "You know, you can't do anything in this country anymore, mate. It's political correctness gone mad. You can't even write racial abuse in excrement on someone's car without the politically correct brigade jumping down your throat."


I'm very serious with my comment, as I see freedom of expression increasingly under threat. I understand that this forum is privately owned; I get all of that. But what's at hand here is the demonstrable tendency to regulate, dictate and infantilize people; ergo the nanny state. Here's what a very very brave individual has to say about it: but he's a very grown up person!!


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## Guest (Apr 29, 2018)

Nereffid said:


> Ah, good old political correctness, the cause of all our problems. As Stewart Lee once said, "You know, you can't do anything in this country anymore, mate. It's political correctness gone mad. You can't even write racial abuse in excrement on someone's car without the politically correct brigade jumping down your throat."


But you couldn't make it up. These days you get arrested and thrown in jail if you say you're English.


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## Guest (Apr 29, 2018)

[undoubtedly off topic]


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## Larkenfield (Jun 5, 2017)

Here are the lyrics that anyone can read to Lamar's Pulitzer Prize-winning album, none of which I doubt would pass the ToS of this forum and be printed. Not that I'm for it, but it's a strange irony that the frankness of what's been said about the album has been tamer in rhetoric than some of the lyrics themselves. But I'm still not for one-word garbage dismissals of something a person may just not understand, given no perspective from the writer's point of view, and categorically condemned. Either everyone wins with such freedom of language in life, or no one does on either side, and it's a difficult situation.

"DAMN" : https://www.google.com/amp/s/genius.com/a/read-all-the-lyrics-to-kendrick-lamar-s-new-album-damn

I would much rather have seen this discussion posted under Nonclassical since a non-classical music album was not voted the Prize and no one has suggested a classical album that might have been deserving unless I happened to miss that. I think that's the issue here and not Lamar winning. Or has CM taken another gigantic step toward irrelevance in today's world? What would make it more relevant?


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## laurie (Jan 12, 2017)

Clairvoyance Enough said:


> I don't know. If this was some truly progressive hip hop album with all sorts of kooky counterpoint and crazy rhythms interwoven with creative lyrics I could see the argument that* this backlash is just snobbery*. But it's just some mildly atmospheric beats underneath rapping that is perhaps somewhat effective as a percussive layer and mediocre at best poetically. It's not as rhythmically static as most rap is but to say it has "rhythmic dynamism" in a general sense seems like a stretch to me....


Oh, I'm not saying that judging "Damn" on it's _musical_ merits, & finding it lacking, or just flat-out disliking it, is snobbery at all! Like many others here, I'm not impressed, & don't agree with it's win; (just as I don't like many of the past winners! ) but Lamar's win doesn't _bother_ me..... I can't understand some other's anger & outrage over it.

It's _these_ types of (over-) reactions (here at TC & elsewhere) that, to me & many others, reek of elitism & snobbery (with a big whiff of racism) : "This is a humiliating, embarrassing travesty! An offensive outrage! A grave insult to every past Pulitzer winner! Deliberately spitting in the face of the Classical music tradition! Nothing but Classical music composed by trained composers should be allowed! An album by any _black rapper_ is trash, & _is not music - this is a indisputable fact!_ This is political pandering to the lowest classes who don't have the mental capacities to appreciate the fine music arts! This is a liberal conspiracy to destroy the highest cultural standards of beauty!" Etc! You get the idea ... (& I saw many other quotes online that were too vile & insulting to repeat here )

Of course, these _aren't_ the feelings of most Classical fans ~ but _these_ _are_ the kinds of outraged reactions that are being seen by such a wide audience right now, &, I worry, have the potential to hurt Classical music ~ by further cementing Classical's already damaging reputation as being elitist music for condescending snobs; & by alienating potential (& badly needed) future listeners.
It bothers me that these opinions are being presented by some as the factual beliefs of the entire Classical world.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

At least Kanye West didn't win. I think Michael Franti should've won a dozen years ago for Yell Fire, or Everyone Deserves Music.


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## eugeneonagain (May 14, 2017)

Christabel said:


> I'm very serious with my comment, as I see freedom of expression increasingly under threat. I understand that this forum is privately owned; I get all of that. But what's at hand here is the demonstrable tendency to regulate, dictate and infantilize people; ergo the nanny state. Here's what a very very brave individual has to say about it: but he's a very grown up person!!


It was only a matter of time before someone wheeled out this gibbering clown. He has been adopted by the loose-knit international cabal of 'warriors' who think everything has been corrupted by an agenda including: feminising; emasculating; side-lining of 'white' culture; social quotas of all kinds; vegans and environmentalists; actual mentalists; the dreaded pejorative 'cultural marxism'; and not forgetting 'garbage posing as music'.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

eugeneonagain said:


> It was only a matter of time before someone wheeled out this gibbering clown. He has been adopted by the loose-knit international cabal of 'warriors' who think everything has been corrupted by an agenda including: feminising; emasculating; side-lining of 'white' culture; social quotas of all kinds; vegans and environmentalists; actual mentalists; the dreaded pejorative 'cultural marxism'; and not forgetting 'garbage posing as music'.


On the other hand, he doesn't seem to engage in boorish name-calling, or smearing those he disagrees with by stating opinions of their supposed associates. A point in his favor, don't you think?


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## Guest (Apr 30, 2018)

KenOC said:


> On the other hand, he doesn't seem to engage in boorish name-calling, or smearing those he disagrees with by stating opinions of their supposed associates. A point in his favor, don't you think?


Why would you want to exchange views with another 'ideologically addled viper'?


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## Guest (Apr 30, 2018)

Just for the record, _I _reported the post that rejected Nereffid's sympathy because _I _didn't like it - and on more than one occasion I have lamented the 'garbage' approach to criticism, so I'm not going complain that action has been taken about it on this particular occasion.

(BTW, there was more than one reason for objecting to the post, but as the post has gone, and I have no record of my 'report' I can't remember what it was - something to do with the business of allowing an environment to develop that puts people off posting).

I was more disappointed that a question I'd asked Christabel has been deleted too. It was in response to #175 and 176#. I didn't understand the relevance of the "Stephen Foster" anecdote or Ken's 'courage'. Can anyone help me here?


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## Guest (Apr 30, 2018)

Christabel said:


> I'm very serious with my comment, as I see freedom of expression increasingly under threat.


...and I suspect Stewart Lee and Nereffid were equally serious with theirs. Despite what some would have us believe (that we can say anything we like at all) there is no such thing as an unfettered right to freedom of speech.


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## Nereffid (Feb 6, 2013)

MacLeod said:


> Just for the record, _I _reported the post that rejected Nereffid's sympathy because _I _didn't like it - and on more than one occasion I have lamented the 'garbage' approach to criticism, so I'm not going complain that action has been taken about it on this particular occasion.
> 
> (BTW, there was more than one reason for objecting to the post, but as the post has gone, and I have no record of my 'report' I can't remember what it was - something to do with the business of allowing an environment to develop that puts people off posting).


Fair enough, if you felt it was worth deleting then I respect your opinion enough to not protest further. You're not one of those namby-pamby liberal PC crybabies I hate so much!


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## Guest (Apr 30, 2018)

Nereffid said:


> Fair enough, if you felt it was worth deleting then I respect your opinion enough to not protest further. You're not one of those namby-pamby liberal PC crybabies I hate so much!


At the risk of prolonging a discussion that might be deemed off-topic, 'deleting' was not what I was necessarily requesting. It's up to the mods whether they take any action and what action they decide to take. As we know, we see little of what goes on - a deletion is only the most visible action - but a PM to the poster suggesting some self-regulation may be helpful.

(I think I'm more niminy-piminy than namby-pamby)


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## Guest (Apr 30, 2018)

KenOC said:


> On the other hand, he doesn't seem to engage in boorish name-calling, or smearing those he disagrees with by stating opinions of their supposed associates. A point in his favor, don't you think?


On the other hand, a concern about freedom of expression being increasingly under threat is risible given the online behaviour of his "supporters."


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## eugeneonagain (May 14, 2017)

KenOC said:


> On the other hand, he doesn't seem to engage in boorish name-calling, or smearing those he disagrees with by stating opinions of their supposed associates. A point in his favor, don't you think?


Where was the "boorish name-calling"? What I listed are the actual gripes of this loose-knit group.


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## Guest (Apr 30, 2018)

Watch out!! Facts coming down the line. Quick; duck!


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## Guest (Apr 30, 2018)

Watch out, an alt-right poster boy that would like a restriction on what subjects can be taught in higher education. Not too much freedom of expression there.

"Political correctness" is a right-wing pejorative used to denigrate anything progressive or inclusive that clashes with their right to be racist or chauvinistic.






In that respect, I applaud Lamar receiving the Pulitzer.


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## eugeneonagain (May 14, 2017)

Their 'self-appointed' right at that. It's one of the great ironies that this group of virulent opponents of 'rights' never waste time in asserting their own "rights" and entitlements and in telling us how under-threat they are.


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## Guest (Apr 30, 2018)

Christabel said:


> Watch out!! Facts coming down the line. Quick; duck!


Haha, that was funny. I managed three minutes listening to the establishment of the straw man. The basis of this character's view is that if you are against the excesses of neo-liberalism you must be a Marxist and therefore no middle ground can be discussed due to political correctness.

:lol:

Also he implies that capitalism is equivalent to the free market. What a hoot!


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## Nereffid (Feb 6, 2013)

MacLeod said:


> I didn't understand the relevance of the "Stephen Foster" anecdote


Ooh, ooh, I think I know this one! So the Stephen Foster statue was removed because there was a rather jolly-looking "Uncle Ned" sitting at his feet, giving him inspiration, and some people have complained about this depiction of the relationship between white and black, not least because Uncle Ned is a slave. And slavery is wrong because... wait, let me work this one through... oh yes, that was it, slavery is wrong because if you end up with millions of slaves then eventually some of their descendants are going to start writing music you don't like and - slippery slope! - one of them's going to end up winning one of your special prizes and that will make you sad. Maybe even as sad as "massa" and "old missus" were when Uncle Ned died and went "whar de good n*****s go".


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## science (Oct 14, 2010)

Just to clarify: there appears to be a line of thought in which defending free speech means someone shouldn't have given Lamar a prize.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

eugeneonagain said:


> Where was the "boorish name-calling"? What I listed are the actual gripes of this loose-knit group.


Well, I consider calling somebody a "gibbering clown" to be in that category. You don't? The man has a Ph.D. in Clinical Psychology, is a professor at the University of Toronto, and comes across as quite down-to-earth and fluent, hardly a good candidate for your description.


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## Capeditiea (Feb 23, 2018)

laurie said:


> Oh, I'm not saying that judging "Damn" on it's _musical_ merits, & finding it lacking, or just flat-out disliking it, is snobbery at all! Like many others here, I'm not impressed, & don't agree with it's win; (just as I don't like many of the past winners! ) but Lamar's win doesn't _bother_ me..... I can't understand some other's anger & outrage over it.
> 
> It's _these_ types of (over-) reactions (here at TC & elsewhere) that, to me & many others, reek of elitism & snobbery (with a big whiff of racism) : "This is a humiliating, embarrassing travesty! An offensive outrage! A grave insult to every past Pulitzer winner! Deliberately spitting in the face of the Classical music tradition! Nothing but Classical music composed by trained composers should be allowed! An album by any _black rapper_ is trash, & _is not music - this is a indisputable fact!_ This is political pandering to the lowest classes who don't have the mental capacities to appreciate the fine music arts! This is a liberal conspiracy to destroy the highest cultural standards of beauty!" Etc! You get the idea ... (& I saw many other quotes online that were too vile & insulting to repeat here )
> 
> ...


Really, i agree with you...

but, i listened to the album in it's entirity. :3 being as it is. there is a lot of classical music theory in it. But if he were to sound classical it would no longer be rap.

But seeing as how i am one of the few who really see the point and imagery from Damn, he hits the nail on the head with similar music compositions as the past greats.

On the surface, his music is kinda bland and such. But he is definately telling a really interesting story.

Now take this into consideration. (this is my interiptation of it.)
(Introduction) Track One
First track is amazing, basically telling the listener that the reason of the title doesn't strike you until the end. 
(Fast Movement) Tracks Two-Eight
this aside, i don't like songs 2-8 much at all because they just are too norm of rap. 
then during the song (#8) Humble, after the genaric rap things, But he starts using various classical terms.

(Slow Movement) Tracks Nine-Thirteen 
Now is where it gets really interesting. He suddenly tones it down to a slow movement.

(Finale and Recapulation) Track Fourteen
It ends up being a really interesting end. which ends up being an endless story. "So I was taking a walk the Other Day"

the interesting point of all this is that the work references many other songs in this album. Where they kinda give each other reasons. 
Which is probably why he won.

I know from experience with my own works, that folk don't look deeper into the more contemporary works. He does know music theory. and grew up where rap is a major influence on him. So he creatively put those two together.


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## eugeneonagain (May 14, 2017)

KenOC said:


> Well, I consider calling somebody a "gibbering clown" to be in that category. You don't? The man has a Ph.D. in Clinical Psychology, is a professor at the University of Toronto, and comes across as quite down-to-earth and fluent, hardly a good candidate for your description.


Dr Phil has a PhD in psychology. He also says stupid things.


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## Haydn70 (Jan 8, 2017)

1.	There are significant differences between Western art music (from all eras, Medieval to contemporary) and Western popular music. Specifically, Western art music operates on much higher and refined technical, aesthetic and emotional levels. From any important perspective it is superior to popular music.

2.	My problem with the Pulitzer being awarded to the Lamar CD has nothing to do with it being with rap music. It is that rap music is a popular music genre and I believe that the award should be confined to contemporary art music. I hate rap music and consider it musically bankrupt. But even if the award had gone to a CD of popular music that I didn’t find so objectionable I would still disagree with the presentation of the award to such music.


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## Guest (Apr 30, 2018)

Of course, we could all object to the criteria, believing that Pulitzer should give the award to Beethoven for his 3rd Symphony in perpetuity...but then that wouldn't be the Pulitzer.

It's also worth pointing out that the award is not for the "best" or "most superior", merely "distinguished". That means it implies nothing derogatory about any other singer or composer. He wasn't selected from a shortlist of nominees of potential "bests" as if he was up for an Oscar.


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## Blancrocher (Jul 6, 2013)

MacLeod said:


> Of course, we could all object to the criteria, believing that Pulitzer should give the award to Beethoven for his 3rd Symphony in perpetuity...but then that wouldn't be the Pulitzer.


I'd have settled for them giving it to Stravinsky's Funeral Song.


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## Capeditiea (Feb 23, 2018)

Blancrocher said:


> I'd have settled for them giving it to Stravinsky's Funeral Song.


i happened to have just finished listening to Stravinsky's Le Sacre du Pritemps


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## Gallus (Feb 8, 2018)

Haydn70 said:


> 1.	There are significant differences between Western art music (from all eras, Medieval to contemporary) and Western popular music. Specifically, Western art music operates on much higher and refined technical, aesthetic and emotional levels. From any important perspective it is superior to popular music.


"To everything there is a season, and a time to every purpose under heaven."

Popular music comes out of the folk tradition, which was delineated from the music for church and court which developed into western classical (although of course there was cross-pollination). While I hate to be a relativist in matters of art, we're dealing with different aesthetic criteria here. There are simply certain environments, such as dancing in a nightclub, where a composition from the techno genre of popular music is in my opinion a conduit to a greater aesthetic experience than any classical composition in the same environment could provide, because popular music, largely due to its strong rhythmic focus, preserves that folk aesthetic of music as a communal activity and experience for the _body_ over the _mind_ which 'western art music' has consciously purged itself of (and I think we can blame the church here). One can prefer the latter to the former but I think it's a completely one-sided view of human nature to say that either one is superior in _every way_ to the other.

Hip hop has characteristics of groove, lyrical invention, and I think most importantly in the case of this award for the Kendrick album, expression of a popular folk culture, aspects which aren't as salient in western classical music. People enjoy those things and I don't think they're stupid for doing so.


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## janxharris (May 24, 2010)

Haydn70 said:


> 1.	There are significant differences between Western art music (from all eras, Medieval to contemporary) and Western popular music. Specifically, Western art music operates on much higher and refined technical, aesthetic and emotional levels. From any important perspective it is superior to popular music.


This is an assertion. There's plenty of examples of depth in popular music - and plenty of examples of simplicity in classical music.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

The Pulitzer Prize is not limited to music inspired by the European tradition, or to anything we might consider "classical music." But many, I suppose, would like the choices to reflect the values of our civilization. From that angle, what does this year's choice say about us?


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## Guest (May 1, 2018)

That we are broad-minded and open to change, presumably.


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## Larkenfield (Jun 5, 2017)

The Pulitzer Prize winners in Music since 1943... only 3 awards that I can tell have gone to non-classical musicians, the first being Ornette Coleman in 2007. In other words, 72 times within the last 75 years the award has been closely identified with CM. It looks like the Pulitzer committee is headed in more of a social/political direction, and maybe it should if that's where the action is:

http://www.pulitzer.org/prize-winners-by-category/225


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

Gallus said:


> "To everything there is a season, and a time to every purpose under heaven."
> 
> Popular music comes out of the folk tradition, which was delineated from the music for church and court which developed into western classical (although of course there was cross-pollination). While I hate to be a relativist in matters of art, we're dealing with different aesthetic criteria here. There are simply certain environments, such as dancing in a nightclub, where a composition from the techno genre of popular music is in my opinion a conduit to *a greater aesthetic experience* than any classical composition in the same environment could provide, because popular music, largely due to its strong rhythmic focus, preserves that folk aesthetic of music as a communal activity and experience for the _body_ over the _mind_ which 'western art music' has consciously purged itself of (and I think we can blame the church here). One can prefer the latter to the former but I think it's a completely one-sided view of human nature to say that either one is superior in _every way_ to the other.
> 
> Hip hop has characteristics of groove, lyrical invention, and I think most importantly in the case of this award for the Kendrick album, expression of a popular folk culture, aspects which aren't as salient in western classical music. People enjoy those things and I don't think they're stupid for doing so.


A greater kinesthetic experience? 

Since I'm here: I've never paid attention to the Pulitzer prize in music and couldn't care less who gets it. Never found rap interesting musically. And the incessant rhyming …


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## bz3 (Oct 15, 2015)

KenOC said:


> The Pulitzer Prize is not limited to music inspired by the European tradition, or to anything we might consider "classical music." But many, I suppose, would like the choices to reflect the values of our civilization. From that angle, what does this year's choice say about us?


That we worship drugs, female genitalia, and victimhood culture. Hey maybe you're on to something...


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## Haydn70 (Jan 8, 2017)

bz3 said:


> That we worship drugs, female genitalia, and victimhood culture. Hey maybe you're on to something...


Excellent post! Spot on.


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## Nereffid (Feb 6, 2013)

bz3 said:


> victimhood culture


(Deleted. Not worth it.)


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## Guest (May 2, 2018)

KenOC said:


> But many, I suppose, would like the choices to reflect the values of *our civilization*. From that angle, what does this year's choice say about us?


Inasmuch as we can establish who cares (there've been a number of posts here suggesting that it really doesn't matter) there will also be some who would want the choice to reflect the state of our civilisation from the different standpoints of those who belong to it...or stand outside it.

That term, along with it's possessive pronoun, begs a multitude of questions.


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## Kieran (Aug 24, 2010)

Larkenfield said:


> . It looks like the Pulitzer committee is headed in more of a social/political direction, and maybe it should if that's where the action is:
> 
> http://www.pulitzer.org/prize-winners-by-category/225


It's a dreadful idea, if that's what's happening. My least favourite movies, for example, are social realism dramas, where some po-faced preachy director is giving their solemn, cliched views on things. Films that conform to political fashions. It would be horrible if composers and artists felt they need to downsize their trade in order to seem "relevant". It's such a restrictive and dull purview...


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## Kieran (Aug 24, 2010)

Haydn70 said:


> 1. There are significant differences between Western art music (from all eras, Medieval to contemporary) and Western popular music. Specifically, Western art music operates on much higher and refined technical, aesthetic and emotional levels. From any important perspective it is superior to popular music.
> 
> 2. My problem with the Pulitzer being awarded to the Lamar CD has nothing to do with it being with rap music. It is that rap music is a popular music genre and I believe that the award should be confined to contemporary art music. I hate rap music and consider it musically bankrupt. But even if the award had gone to a CD of popular music that I didn't find so objectionable I would still disagree with the presentation of the award to such music.


I have some sympathy with this. It was one of the more interesting prongs of attack against Bob Dylan's Nobel prize - that rock stars have grammys and all sorts of lucrative awards they receive, without elbowing their way into stuff like the Nobel, where a poor downtrodden author might benefit more from the exposure, and the moolah, of course.

But it's better, I feel, if the award is given based upon an honest appraisal of works, and the most deserving wins...


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## Guest (May 2, 2018)

Kieran said:


> It's a dreadful idea, if that's what's happening. My least favourite movies, for example, are social realism dramas, where some po-faced preachy director is giving their solemn, cliched views on things. Films that conform to political fashions. It would be horrible if composers and artists felt they need to downsize their trade in order to seem "relevant". It's such a restrictive and dull purview...


I completely agree with you and reading these comments is proof that not all sanity has deserted this site. I was watching Ricky Gervais's spoof at the Golden Globe Awards again today on U-Tube and it's hilarious in it's non-PC-ness!! An absolute hoot taking down those starchy and narcissistic moral relativists.

If you're interested in true dissent go no further than David Mamet and his comments on U-Tube about why he abandoned being a 'progressive'. Very interesting!!! (I'd post it here but there's bound to be an outpouring of rage. These people don't yet realize that the louder they scream the more effective the opponent is proving to be!! ("The frightened dog barks a lot"!!)


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## Guest (May 2, 2018)

Kieran said:


> But it's better, I feel, if the award is given based upon an honest appraisal of works, and the most deserving wins...


I wholly agree. This should not be a moral debate at all.


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## Guest (May 2, 2018)

Kieran said:


> It's a dreadful idea, if that's what's happening. My least favourite movies, for example, are social realism dramas, where some po-faced preachy director is giving their solemn, cliched views on things. Films that conform to political fashions. It would be horrible if composers and artists felt they need to downsize their trade in order to seem "relevant". It's such a restrictive and dull purview...


One man's meat as the saying goes. The worst films, to me, are the vacuous ones made by directors who have nothing to say.


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## Kieran (Aug 24, 2010)

dogen said:


> One man's meat as the saying goes. The worst films, to me, are the vacuous ones made by directors who have nothing to say.


Absolutely, and this presumably includes vacuous films by right-on directors regurgitating dull political ideas. But where I disagree is with the implication that only films with a political/social dimension are actually saying something worth hearing. I would disagree. There are many great films which don't display political bias at all, and which are exhilarating and well worth a watch...


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## Nereffid (Feb 6, 2013)

Larkenfield said:


> The Pulitzer Prize winners in Music since 1943... only 3 awards that I can tell have gone to non-classical musicians, the first being Ornette Coleman in 2007. In other words, 72 times within the last 75 years the award has been closely identified with CM. It looks like the Pulitzer committee is headed in more of a social/political direction, and maybe it should if that's where the action is:
> 
> http://www.pulitzer.org/prize-winners-by-category/225


The very first Pulitzer went to William Schuman's _A Free Song_, about which I read: "The two contrasted passages from _Drum Taps_ set in _A Free Song _embody Whitman's belief in America's fundamental strength and optimism in a time of great strife." (from here: http://www.cedillerecords.org/albums/the-pulitzer-project)
What about the underlying subject matter of Copland's _Appalachian Spring_, Ives's 3rd symphony, or Thomson's music for _Louisiana Story_? Looks like the awards have always had a social/political dimension.


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## Guest (May 2, 2018)

Kieran said:


> But where I disagree is with the implication that only films with a political/social dimension are actually saying something worth hearing. I would disagree. There are many great films which don't display political bias at all, and which are exhilarating and well worth a watch...


Where do you see that implication Kieran?


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## Guest (May 2, 2018)

Christabel said:


> (I'd post it here but there's bound to be an outpouring of rage. These people don't yet realize that the louder they scream the more effective the opponent is proving to be!! ("The frightened dog barks a lot"!!)


Alternatively you may not wish to post it because your last clip was destroyed by me for being worthless, rage having nothing to do with it.


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## Nereffid (Feb 6, 2013)

Christabel said:


> "The frightened dog barks a lot"!!


An ironic comment about progressives given that conservatives are the ones with all the dog whistles.


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## Kieran (Aug 24, 2010)

Tulse said:


> Where do you see that implication Kieran?


Hi Tulse,

I saw it in the suggestion that perhaps the opposite to social/political films was vacuous movies that say nothing. Of course, dogen may actually have been posting in agreement with me...


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## Guest (May 2, 2018)

Christabel said:


> I completely agree with you and reading these comments is proof that not all sanity has deserted this site. I was watching Ricky Gervais's spoof at the Golden Globe Awards again today on U-Tube and it's hilarious in it's non-PC-ness!! An absolute hoot taking down those *starchy and narcissistic moral relativists*.
> 
> If you're interested in true dissent go no further than David Mamet and his comments on U-Tube about why he abandoned being a 'progressive'. Very interesting!!! (I'd post it here but there's bound to be an outpouring of rage. *These people* don't yet realize that the louder they scream the more effective the opponent is proving to be!! ("The frightened dog barks a lot"!!)


I wonder who "these people" are...on TC that is...(and the "starchy moral relativists"?).


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## eugeneonagain (May 14, 2017)

bz3 said:


> That we worship drugs, female genitalia, and victimhood culture. Hey maybe you're on to something...


We? I don't, do you? It's important to separate the ideas that a Pulitzer prize has been awarded to someone for popular culture and negative issues in popular culture. Certainly to be careful with bandying about the claim that "we" worship drugs..." etc.

I can imagine that had Elvis (in the early days) been awarded such a prize, the same moral guardians would have set up their complaints stall. 
One thing (among so very many) that strikes me as deeply ironic, is the way the right-wing, conservatives and Christian moralists go on about "victimhood culture" when they seem to be the ones doing the most complaining about their boring little subcultures being marginalised and 'attacked' from every quarter.


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## Kieran (Aug 24, 2010)

Just out of curiosity, how and why ( and when) did this become an issue of so-called progressives vs so-called conservatives? This seems to have nothing at all to do with the merits of Lamar's music, and whether he should have received the prize. I would have thought the argument was better framed when it was wondering if rap music was too inferior a form to compare with classical.

I say this as someone who hasn't heard any of the works of the finalists, and have no problem accepting that his work was considered the best of the three...


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## Guest (May 2, 2018)

Kieran said:


> Just out of curiosity, how and why ( and when) did this become an issue of so-called progressives vs so-called conservatives? This seems to have nothing at all to do with the merits of Lamar's music, and whether he should have received the prize. I would have thought the argument was better framed when it was wondering if rap music was too inferior a form to compare with classical.
> 
> I say this as someone who hasn't heard any of the works of the finalists, and have no problem accepting that his work was considered the best of the three...


If you mean 'how, why and when' here on TC, I'm not sure. There have been posts in this thread, and over time in other threads about the need to defend the conservative idea that music can be judged by absolute, objective standards as exemplified by the historical masters like Bach and Mozart; that CM is the superior form; and that any dilution of award-giving by allowing in inferior forms (rap regularly takes a beating here) is a slippery slope to the decline of those standards. Some connect these idea to other wider moral and political dimensions.

Others stick with discussing the music.


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## Nereffid (Feb 6, 2013)

Kieran said:


> Just out of curiosity, how and why ( and when) did this become an issue of so-called progressives vs so-called conservatives? This seems to have nothing at all to do with the merits of Lamar's music, and whether he should have received the prize. I would have thought the argument was better framed when it was wondering if rap music was too inferior a form to compare with classical.


When? Post #24 says the Pulitzers "are so far left, it's ridiculous"; post #111 brings up the dreaded spectre of political correctness; post #114 mentions it again; and so on. I guess the argument is that rap is indeed so inferior to classical that the only possible explanation for a rap artist winning a prize over any classical music is that it was a leftist political decision.


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## Kieran (Aug 24, 2010)

MacLeod said:


> If you mean 'how, why and when' here on TC, I'm not sure. There have been posts in this thread, and over time in other threads about the need to defend the conservative idea that music can be judged by absolute, objective standards as exemplified by the historical masters like Bach and Mozart; that CM is the superior form; and that any dilution of award-giving by allowing in inferior forms (rap regularly takes a beating here) is a slippery slope to the decline of those standards. Some connect these idea to other wider moral and political dimensions.
> 
> Others stick with discussing the music.


I don't mind to haggle over whether CM is the superior form (it plainly is), because in this case it maybe that the judges felt that Lamar actually said something more interesting than the art music works. It would be more political - imo - if the judges felt Lamar was the best fit for the prize, but gave it to somebody else "just because" their work was deemed art music enough. Bad politics _can_ happen on both sides of the old divide...


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## Kieran (Aug 24, 2010)

Nereffid said:


> When? Post #24 says the Pulitzers "are so far left, it's ridiculous"; post #111 brings up the dreaded spectre of political correctness; post #114 mentions it again; and so on. I guess the argument is that rap is indeed so inferior to classical that the only possible explanation for a rap artist winning a prize over any classical music is that it was a leftist political decision.


Yeah I just read back to them, and they're fair enough comments (and so are counter-views) but I think the confab is hardening now into something, and to be honest, I'm starting to wonder what it's _really_ about. :lol:

I accept that my own contributions may have dragged it far off topic too...


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## laurie (Jan 12, 2017)

KenOC said:


> The Pulitzer Prize is not limited to music inspired by the European tradition, or to anything we might consider "classical music." But many, I suppose, would like the choices to reflect the values of our civilization. From that angle, *what does this year's choice say about us?*





bz3 said:


> That we worship drugs, female genitalia, and victimhood culture. Hey maybe you're on to something...


No, it doesn't say that. It doesn't say anything about '*us*' at all! This award was chosen by a jury of five judges ~ *five*! And all it even says about_ them_ is that, in their view, 'Damn' has merit ~ & they wanted to shake things up a little. Why is anyone giving so much weight & power to the opinion of five people??


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## bz3 (Oct 15, 2015)

eugeneonagain said:


> We? I don't, do you?


Drugs? No, don't use them and think we should hang high level drug peddlers. Victimhood culture? No again, a blight on our body politic today. Female genitalia though? To quote a sage musical prophet of my youth who was denied his right to a Pullitzer in a less progressive era: 'I did it all for the nookie.'


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## eugeneonagain (May 14, 2017)

I didn't know anyone had a right to a Pulitzer prize.


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## Guest (May 2, 2018)

eugeneonagain said:


> I didn't know anyone had a right to a Pulitzer prize.


You're confusing the Pulitzer with the Pullitzer.



> denied his right to a Pullitzer


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## eugeneonagain (May 14, 2017)

I meant _Der Polizei_.

I'm not paying sufficient attention.


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## Tallisman (May 7, 2017)

St Matthew said:


> I agree, awards are for kids, not for an industry of adults who should be creating things without the childish idea of competing for a little piece of paper that says their name on it (or a little bronze figurine) but in 2018 it still seems to be a thing.
> 
> Beethoven doesn't deserve an award, neither does Coltrane or Kendrick Lamar, it devalues music's immaterial worth


You might just be right, you know.


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## Tallisman (May 7, 2017)

Why in the world would you get angry about a piece of music you don't like winning an award? It seems totally senseless to me. It doesn't matter at all to me that most people don't like the kind of music I like. The reason I like the music I like is because it is _subjectively pleasing_. I don't need it given a prize for me to be convinced that my preferences are sound. That they are sound to me is all that matters.

Likewise, when I see music that I dislike (Kendrick Lamar, and rap generally) receiving awards, this doesn't somehow delegitimise my own appreciation of art. The people who awarded the prize clearly don't evaluate music by the same standards as I do, and that's fine. I look for things in music that they clearly don't and vice versa. Why should that bother me?! Who cares!

Even worse than just being slightly irked by it is this argument that goes along the lines of: "this is indicative of a larger trend towards social decay and the breakdown of good ol' aesthetic values". Ok, but, again, _who cares_? as long as I'm free to buy my the music I like and listen to it and extract from it beauty and profundity, the external world doesn't matter. That beauty and profundity I am exposed to when I listen to Bruckner or Mahler or Beethoven extinguishes any possible silly worries I might have about other people's tastes, such that I am made totally incapable of getting worked up about what the rest of the world thinks.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

laurie said:


> No, it doesn't say that. It doesn't say anything about '*us*' at all! This award was chosen by a jury of five judges ~ *five*!


History may see it differently. From a retrospective view of the former American Empire in the _Encyclopedia Terra_, 2226 edition:

"…a bizarre society seemingly bent on accelerating its own decay and destruction. As examples, we need only review the works selected by its most important artistic authorities as the 'best' the society had to offer. In 2018, for instance, the jurors of the prestigious Pulitzer Prize Board awarded their annual music prize to a collection of songs that included these lyrics:"

The excerpt breaks off here, in order to respect the ToS of this fine forum.


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## Gallus (Feb 8, 2018)

KenOC said:


> History may see it differently. From a retrospective view of the former American Empire from the _Encyclopedia Terra_, 2226 edition:
> 
> "…a bizarre society seemingly bent on accelerating its own decay and destruction. As examples, we need only review the works selected by its most important artistic authorities as the 'best' the society had to offer. In 2018, for instance, the jurors of the prestigious Pulitzer Prize Board awarded the annual music prize to singer and musician Kendrick Lamar. A sample of his lyrics, which he composed along with the music, follows:"
> 
> The excerpt breaks off here, in order to respect the ToS of this fine forum.


And two hundred years after Shakespeare he was considered a "drunken savage" (Voltaire's words) and relic of a barbarous age whose low, vulgar language with its obscenities had to be censored to prevent the corruption of public morals. 'He uses curse words' is not an argument against artistic merit.


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## Larkenfield (Jun 5, 2017)

More background on why the Pulitzer Prize committee expanded beyond the categories of jazz and classical: http://www.newsweek.com/kendrick-lamar-pulitzer-prize-classical-music-jazz-first-ever-damn-columbia-888224

Excerpt:


> Reforms put in place by Columbia University's Pulitzer Prize Board between 1996 and 2004 aimed to expand the music prize to "larger forms" outside of modern classical music and jazz norms, Vox first reported. But Lamar's DAMN album, released on April 14, 2017, is the first hip-hop or contemporary music of any style to win the award. [unquote]
> 
> A classical work for string quartet had been nominated:
> 
> ...


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## St Matthew (Aug 26, 2017)

ArsMusica said:


> Right, let's take pleasure in how standards of beauty, technique and taste have been destroyed.
> 
> No form of popular music should be considered for the Pulitzer...to have awarded garbage like 'Damn' is especially offensive.


This comment made me crack up laughing so hard, thanks for the laugh! :lol:


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## Guest (May 3, 2018)

Larkenfield said:


> More background...


The Newsweek article doesn't really explain how the rules were broadened...there's more on the Pulitzer site...

http://www.pulitzer.org/page/history-pulitzer-prizes



Larkenfield said:


> I believe the committee is now looking for contemporary works that are more socially or politically relevant


Maybe they are...but since they don't elaborate on their reasoning, that's pure speculation. But even if it were true, is that a problem?



Larkenfield said:


> But this year it's not exactly helpful in furthering the interest in the developments within classical music.


Is that an aim of Pulitzer, to further the interests of CM? I don't think so.



Larkenfield said:


> The thing about the award to Lamar is that DANN received eight or nine other awards from those within the field of hip-hop, and was it necessary to award the album the Pulitzer Prize? Lemar was already a millionaire from his album, so who could have used the financial rewards of the prize more, him or an adventurous string quartet that may have also been deserving of financial rewards. From the financial standpoint, I think the committee awarded the Prize to the person who didn't need it, and it was an unconscionable decision. There were other people of great artistic merit.


So, essentially, it's not fair? Not much of a justification to reject Lamar.


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## Nereffid (Feb 6, 2013)

KenOC said:


> History may see it differently. From a retrospective view of the former American Empire in the _Encyclopedia Terra_, 2226 edition:
> 
> "…a bizarre society seemingly bent on accelerating its own decay and destruction. As examples, we need only review the works selected by its most important artistic authorities as the 'best' the society had to offer. In 2018, for instance, the jurors of the prestigious Pulitzer Prize Board awarded their annual music prize to a collection of songs that included these lyrics:"





Kendrick Lamar said:


> When I was 27, I grew accustomed to more fear
> Accumulated 10 times over throughout the years
> My newfound life made all of me magnified
> How many accolades do I need to block denial?
> ...


You need to work on your punchlines.


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## bz3 (Oct 15, 2015)

Nereffid said:


> You need to work on your punchlines.


Even by rap's lowly standards this guy is pretty mediocre at his craft. The appeal for him lies mostly in people, like many on this forum, who are middle or pensioner aged and want the bourgie engagement that 'social critiques' of his type offer. It is the same reason a journalist with little to say like Ta-Nehisi Coates has been able to fashion himself as a premiere social critic, nay perhaps even a revolutionary from the comfort of your Crate & Barrel living room set.

They both couch their critiques, correctly derided as victimhood culture, in moral opprobrium - locating all the blame at the feet of the wonderfully vain literati who are all to happy to buy their books for coffee tables and give them fancy awards and call it progress. A perfectly toothless method of reform with the happy side effect of social division. What could be better on all counts if you're a criminal elite ruling over an increasingly restless population?


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## Nereffid (Feb 6, 2013)

Kendrick Lamar -> Ta-Nehisi Coates -> Black Panthers

I'm out of this thread.

Mods, maybe you should shut it down before someone actually goes where it looks like they're going.


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## janxharris (May 24, 2010)

bz3 said:


> Even by rap's lowly standards this guy is pretty mediocre at his craft. The appeal for him lies mostly in people, like many on this forum, who are middle or pensioner aged and want the bourgie engagement that 'social critiques' of his type offer. It is the same reason a journalist with little to say like Ta-Nehisi Coates has been able to fashion himself as a premiere social critic, nay perhaps even a revolutionary from the comfort of your Crate & Barrel living room set.
> 
> They both couch their critiques, correctly derided as victimhood culture, in moral opprobrium - locating all the blame at the feet of the wonderfully vain literati who are all to happy to buy their books for coffee tables and give them fancy awards and call it progress. A perfectly toothless method of reform with the happy side effect of social division. What could be better on all counts if you're a criminal elite ruling over an increasingly restless population?


I have no idea what this saying. Perhaps you could translate?


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## Guest (May 4, 2018)

What is "bourgie"?


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## Guest (May 4, 2018)

janxharris said:


> I have no idea what this saying. Perhaps you could translate?


It's come from a random word generator, like this one:

http://www.qwghlm.co.uk/toys/dailymail/


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## bz3 (Oct 15, 2015)

Nereffid said:


> Kendrick Lamar -> Ta-Nehisi Coates -> Black Panthers
> 
> I'm out of this thread.
> 
> Mods, maybe you should shut it down before someone actually goes where it looks like they're going.


We're discussing why this particular rapper won this particular award. Why should the discussion be 'shut down?'



janxharris said:


> I have no idea what this saying. Perhaps you could translate?


Apologies if you're a non-English speaker or unfamiliar with American social issues. Unfortunately a decent handle on both of these is the only way you can inform yourself on why Kendrick Lamar won his award. He espouses a favored brand of social shaming, much like Coates, whereas more marginal voices on the same issue are shunned. Much of this debate can even be traced to the Booker T. Washington/WEB DuBois debate.



dogen said:


> What is "bourgie"?


It is an American (English language?) slang/contraction for bourgeoisie. Again, a decent handle on modern American social issues is, unfortunately, the reason why many people may seem confused over this award - whether they support it or not. If it was purely about artistic merit a Kanye West, or perhaps Lupe Fiasco, or going back even further a Wu Tang related rap album would have won. It's not though, and this discussion is about why.


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## DeepR (Apr 13, 2012)

Rapper wins a prize. Ok, cool for him. Forgive me if my care factor is near zero. 
This doesn't really seem like a topic about classical music. Politics and left vs right hysteria -> the internet is full of that crap, please, not here.


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## Guest (May 4, 2018)

I did wonder why it was in a CM thread.


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## eugeneonagain (May 14, 2017)

DeepR said:


> Rapper wins a prize. Ok, cool for him. Forgive me if my care factor is near zero.
> This doesn't really seem like a topic about classical music. Politics and left vs right hysteria -> the internet is full of that crap, please, not here.


Your cool detachment approach is admirable, but I get pretty irked when someone comes along to 'knock heads together' and declare six of one and half a dozen of the other.

There is an underlying tone, among not a few, on this forum of belaboured social-conservatism with regard to music and by extension culture and politics, which rears its head at regular intervals. It always dredges up the same world-weary critique of anything from current culture, music or politics, and eventually culminates in the sort of '"_O tempora o mores_' rubbish seen in this thread. 
So ask yourself who really leads us down the path from a rapper winning a prize to Bernstein cheerleading the Black Panthers and all of us on a collective moral decline being obsessed with drugs and women's body parts.


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## tdc (Jan 17, 2011)

eugeneonagain said:


> It always dredges up the same world-weary critique of anything from current culture, music or politics, and eventually culminates in the sort of '"_O tempora o mores_' rubbish seen in this thread.


This is just a straw man argument. I don't recall any posts in this thread criticising everything in current culture, music and politics. Just seems like a false generalization used in an attempt to cognitively frame any criticism of _Damn_ to be coming from the far right.

You said previously you listen to KRS One, do you think you understand his message? Or do you just say things like that to virtue signal?

Listen to track number 2 off KRS One's *current* album _The World is Mind_.

Do you agree with the message?

Politics is just a diversion, a Hegelian dialectic --> divide and conquer. This topic is not a left or right issue, any attempts to frame it as such is obfuscation.


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## science (Oct 14, 2010)

Anything that can elicit such overwrought scorn from all the right places must have something going for it, so I'm going to try to educate myself more about this genre.

I'm looking for about 15 albums to get started. Here's a rough draft. Any suggestions?


Nas: Illmatic
Wu-Tang Clan: Enter the Wu-Tang 
Public Enemy: It Takes a Nation of Millions to Hold Us Back 
Tupac Shakur: Me Against the World and/ All Eyes on Me 
Mos Def: Black on Both Sides 
N.W.A.: Straight Outta Compton 
Cypress Hill: Cypress Hill 
Madvillain: Madvillainy 
Common: Be 
Notorious B.I.G.: Ready to Die 
Kendrick Lamar: To Pimp a Butterfly 
A Tribe Called Quest: The Low-End Theory 
Kanye West: My Beautiful Dark Twisted Fantasy 
Chance the Rapper: Acid Rap


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## Kieran (Aug 24, 2010)

science said:


> Anything that can elicit such overwrought scorn from all the right places must have something going for it, so I'm going to try to educate myself more about this genre.
> 
> I'm looking for about 15 albums to get started. Here's a rough draft. Any suggestions?
> 
> ...


Ice Cube: Amerikkkah's Most Wanted
Dr Dre: 1999

Both essentials in that genre, imho...


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## science (Oct 14, 2010)

Kieran said:


> Ice Cube: Amerikkkah's Most Wanted
> Dr Dre: 1999
> 
> Both essentials in that genre, imho...


Thank you very much!


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## janxharris (May 24, 2010)

bz3 said:


> It is an American (English language?) slang/contraction for bourgeoisie. Again, a decent handle on modern American social issues is, unfortunately, the reason why many people may seem confused over this award - whether they support it or not. If it was purely about artistic merit a Kanye West, or perhaps Lupe Fiasco, or going back even further a Wu Tang related rap album would have won. It's not though, and this discussion is about why.


What does social shaming mean specifically? I remain unclear as to what you are saying. Sorry.


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## Guest (May 5, 2018)

bz3 said:


> The appeal for him lies mostly in people, like many on this forum, who are middle or pensioner aged and want the bourgie engagement that 'social critiques' of his type offer.


Whatever the age of many on this Forum, it's clear that few are fans of rap or Lamar - not even among those of us defending Pulitzer's decision - so I'm not sure why you think there is a connection between TC members and those who want 'bourgie entertainment'.



bz3 said:


> They both couch their critiques, correctly derided as victimhood culture, in moral opprobrium - locating all the blame at the feet of the wonderfully vain literati who are all to happy to buy their books for coffee tables and give them fancy awards and call it progress. A perfectly toothless method of reform with the happy side effect of social division. What could be better on all counts if you're a criminal elite ruling over an increasingly restless population?


I'm unclear who is who in this...or what they're alleged to have done...



bz3 said:


> Unfortunately a decent handle on both of these is *the only way *you can inform yourself on why Kendrick Lamar won his award.


Only if you think that the award of Pulitzer is no longer about music.



tdc said:


> I don't recall any posts in this thread criticising everything in current culture, music and politics.


That's because some posts have been moderated, and because some criticisms are implied over a series of posts and even acrosss threads. I don't think that anyone has actually posted the words "This is the end of civilisation as we know it" or used the phrase "slippery slope" in this particular thread, but some have said similar.

Curiously, I interpreted Ken's post about Bernstein as observing that CM has dirtied its hands with social politics as well as pop and the CM purity brigade might like to be less holier-than-thou. But I may have misread.


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## eugeneonagain (May 14, 2017)

tdc said:


> This is just a straw man argument. I don't recall any posts in this thread criticising everything in current culture, music and politics. Just seems like a false generalization used in an attempt to cognitively frame any criticism of _Damn_ to be coming from the far right.


No, it's not a "straw man" argument at all. If you're going to use that idea at least understand it first. I referred to actual posts made here which were presented as arguments. A straw man argument, on the other hand, invents a scenario to knock down. I did not do that.
I also didn't limit the critique to this single thread, but the dozens of others just like it used to launch the same 'to hell in a handcart' blistering attack on the actual 'straw men' of: cultural decline via policy based upon liberal guilt/victimhood/cultural marxism and the rest of the fantasy world they've dreamed up to explain their dislikes.



tdc said:


> You said previously you listen to KRS One, do you think you understand his message? Or do you just say things like that to virtue signal?
> 
> Listen to track number 2 off KRS One's *current* album _The World is Mind_.
> Do you agree with the message?


I _used to_ listen to KRS One, but haven't listed for a while; just like I haven't listened to a lot of other music I listened to 15-20 years ago. If I had never listened to it, I would not have mentioned it. I don't "virtue signal". I only say what I do and do what I say. I hope that's clear?



tdc said:


> Politics is just a diversion, a Hegelian dialectic --> divide and conquer. This topic is not a left or right issue, any attempts to frame it as such is obfuscation.


Politics can indeed be a diversion; I'm much more focused on economics. However, I don't see what point you are making here. Is this perhaps an example of this "virtue signalling"? It doesn't take a great deal of effort to see that a topic like this, posted on this forum _will_ generate responses that are coloured by particular political and cultural worldviews. It's even easier to just go back and actually read them. However, I say again (just like in the post you quoted, yet appear to have misunderstood): who was it who took this in the direction of arguing that it reflects moral and cultural decline? The liberal guilt-trippers? The people less critical or uncritical of urban music in general?


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## Guest (May 5, 2018)

science said:


> Anything that can elicit such overwrought scorn from all the right places must have something going for it, so I'm going to try to educate myself more about this genre.
> 
> I'm looking for about 15 albums to get started. Here's a rough draft. Any suggestions?
> 
> ...


You are absolutely right Science. I never thought of it that way.

I shall do the same as you.


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## Room2201974 (Jan 23, 2018)

If I had a nickel for every time historically that the chicken littles have warned us that the cultural sky is falling - I would be rich enough to retire and move to Florida!

Be bop a lula baby. And I don't mean maybe!

P.S. Check out my EBAY sales. Strong bids on my two tickets for the performance at the Théâtre des Champs-Élysées on 29 May 1913!


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## bz3 (Oct 15, 2015)

MacLeod said:


> Whatever the age of many on this Forum, it's clear that few are fans of rap or Lamar - not even among those of us defending Pulitzer's decision - so I'm not sure why you think there is a connection between TC members and those who want 'bourgie entertainment'.


If you don't see the connection between defending this award going to someone you (plural form, not stating anything in particular about you) don't listen in a genre you don't care about, and the fact that the award was political first and foremost then I'm afraid I can't help out. My point was that it was entirely political - there are much better and more deserving artists within the genre.



MacLeod said:


> I'm unclear who is who in this...or what they're alleged to have done...


My post was quite clear and only mentioned 2 people by name.



MacLeod said:


> Only if you think that the award of Pulitzer is no longer about music.


Now you're getting it.


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## TurnaboutVox (Sep 22, 2013)

Some political posts without a connection to the thread topic have been removed.

Please focus your posts on Kendrick Lamar and the Pulitzer prize.


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## JosefinaHW (Nov 21, 2015)

TurnaboutVox said:


> Some political posts without a connection to the thread topic have been removed.
> 
> Please focus your posts on Kendrick Lamar and the Pulitzer prize.


I don't understand why you haven't moved this thread to the Non-Classical section of the Forum?


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## Guest (May 6, 2018)

bz3 said:


> My point was that it was entirely political - there are much better and more deserving artists within the genre.


You keep saying it, but not offering any evidence in support of it. The fact that _you _think there are better and more deserving artists leading you to the conclusion that it must be political is hardly evidence.


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## TurnaboutVox (Sep 22, 2013)

JosefinaHW said:


> I don't understand why you haven't moved this thread to the Non-Classical section of the Forum?


It had already been moved to non-classical music when I put that message in the thread, JosephinaHW.


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## Tallisman (May 7, 2017)

KenOC said:


> History may see it differently. From a retrospective view of the former American Empire in the _Encyclopedia Terra_, 2226 edition:
> 
> "…a bizarre society seemingly bent on accelerating its own decay and destruction. As examples, we need only review the works selected by its most important artistic authorities as the 'best' the society had to offer. In 2018, for instance, the jurors of the prestigious Pulitzer Prize Board awarded their annual music prize to a collection of songs that included these lyrics:"
> 
> The excerpt breaks off here, in order to respect the ToS of this fine forum.


History sees everything differently


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## Guest (May 6, 2018)

TurnaboutVox said:


> Some political posts without a connection to the thread topic have been removed.
> 
> Please focus your posts on Kendrick Lamar and the Pulitzer prize.


Hmmm. Tricky decision. Some of the posts may have _seemed _"off-topic", but to those addressing the question of whether the award was political rather than musical, it was quite germane. How do you discuss the issue of an award given explicitly for music "capturing the complexity of modern African-American life" without examining what "the complexity of modern African-American life" is; whether Lamar's treament of it is especially distinguished; and whether, if the award had gone to a CM composer instead, it would have been free from politics.


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## Guest (May 6, 2018)

We need another sub-forum
Politics and Religion in Non-Classical Music (except C&W)


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## mmsbls (Mar 6, 2011)

MacLeod said:


> Hmmm. Tricky decision. Some of the posts may have _seemed _"off-topic", but to those addressing the question of whether the award was political rather than musical, it was quite germane. How do you discuss the issue of an award given explicitly for music "capturing the complexity of modern African-American life" without examining what "the complexity of modern African-American life" is; whether Lamar's treament of it is especially distinguished; and whether, if the award had gone to a CM composer instead, it would have been free from politics.


It is a tricky decision, but here's my suggestion to those who wish to delve deeper into some of these issues without having posts removed. The focus of discussions can move away from the OP, but comments should have direct relevance to classical music (maybe non-classical in this case). One can discuss taxes, quotas, or other political issues as long as the post shows the relevance of those comments to (non) classical music. Make a point and _then bring the issue back to the OP or classical music_. When posts simply diverge onto political issues without any attempt to involve classical music, moderators will seriously consider removing those posts or even shutting a thread.

Also comments can be stated in various ways, and even those relevant to classical music could be considered inflammatory or trolling.


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## JosefinaHW (Nov 21, 2015)

TurnaboutVox said:


> It had already been moved to non-classical music when I put that message in the thread, JosephinaHW.


Many Thanks, Turnip!


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## bz3 (Oct 15, 2015)

MacLeod said:


> You keep saying it, but not offering any evidence in support of it. The fact that _you _think there are better and more deserving artists leading you to the conclusion that it must be political is hardly evidence.


It's fine if you're a rap aficionado and think that Lamar is the best in the biz, but that is not a widespread belief. In fact he's rather niche (as is much of West Coast hip hop) and seems to divide hip hop fans. I am a hip hop fan and I can go either way on Kanye West but I don't deny his contributions to the genre, nor does anyone else. He is widely thought of to be the greater artist certainly - so why didn't he win? My post offered a perspective, from someone who listens to hip hop unlike much of this forum.

Kendrick Lamar is just an anodyne NWA, itself a fairly irrelevant and overrated group that probably lucked out by existing in the lead-up to the LA riots. I won't deny Dr. Dre's talent, or his Chronic album that basically made Snoop Dogg's career, but it all flash and MTV promotion compared to the Mobb Deep, Notorious BIG, Tribe, and Wu Tang contributions at the same time. I would say the same thing if some allegedly prestigious award was given to NWA over the latter - it would be entirely political.


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