# How to read the flats and naturals in this line of piano music.



## david1899

I have questions about the flats and naturals in the following line of piano music which is part of Ave Maria on page 8 of "First 50 Classical Pieces" my 11 year old son is learning.

Any help with these questions would be greatly appreciated:











1 - This flat designates all B4's on this line as B-flat?
2 - This flat designates all B2's on this line as B-flat?
3- This natural cancels previous sharps/flats on this B3 (even though no B3 is sharp or flat is preceding this line)?
4- Obviously this designates a G4-sharp here.
5- Again, why the need to cancel sharps/flats when none of been designated for B3 previously?
8- This B3 also a natural, no need to mark it as such (why mark the previous as such)?
9- This "naturals out the previous G-sharp, making this a natural G?
12 - This is again a D-flat because it hasn't been cancelled since marked a D-flat at 11?
13 - This is again a B-flat because it hasn't been cancelled since marked a B-flat at 10?
14 - Again marked as a D-flat but why since it was never cancelled? Wouldn't the D-flat designation at 11 carry over to 12, 14 and 15 with no further marks needed?
15 - This must be a D-flat, no?
16 - This is a B-flat, as is 13, since 10 is marked B-flat and never cancelled?

Again, thanks in advance with any help here.


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## david1899

Since I posted this, I realized a BIG mistake I was making with 1 & 2, not recognizing them as key signatures.

That clears up a lot. However, I still am perplexed by one mark on that page, the mark I have designated as #10, the B3-flat.

Why does that have to be designated a flat if the entire key-signature is B-flat (except where the natural is indicated at 5, which extends to 8 in the same stanza but should stop there, no?

Why does the B3-flat at 10 have to be designated as a B-flat.

Thanks again, in advance.


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## Taggart

It's a reminder that you're back to B flat after the natural in the previous bar. That's why the natural is repeated at 5 because normally it would go back to flat after the bar change. Having had two lots of naturals, the composer (or editor) is helping you by pointing out that 10 is back to flat (as you would expect).


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## david1899

Thank you very much, Taggart. I really appreciate it. I'm finding this stuff all really interesting. Do you have a book recommendation on this subject?


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## Enthalpy

Beware these conventions change with the epoch. In the example they matter little and the result is clear, but in other music one must apply different rules.

While key signatures apply to all octaves, it's not always the case for accidentals. Maybe, but maybe not. You have to guess.

Some scores cancel the accidentals even if a bar did before. Other scores don't.

Especially for the piano: accidentals at the left hand may apply to the right hand too - or not. Ha ha. Same if several instruments share a score in an orchestra. Even more fun: the most usual convention differs between singers and instruments. I knew you'd like that one.

And: some recent music has no key signature, and accidentals apply to one single note only. Or even, every note carries an accidental, even if it's a natural and the previous was a natural too.

Don't forget French horns, nearly always written without a key signature, as opposed to the rest of the orchestra.

Editors tend to follow the use of the time they print a score and alter the accidentals accordingly - but not always. So if you get an ancient score or a recent score of ancient music, you must wonder what the conventions are.

In this context, redundant indications are welcome. It's even common practice to cancel an accidental from the previous bar. Only several bars later are accidentals considered safely forgotten. The same holds for different octaves: most editors go the safe way, suppose that the reader ignores whether an accidental applies to other octaves too, and give redundant indications. Nice of them.

Your piece is probably extracted from a bigger work. If previous bars had accidentals, your extract kept the naturals, for bad or excellent reasons.

I know one single solution to this absolute mess: the Obukhov notation. No key signature, no accidentals. An X notehead instead of O means this single note is a semitone higher. Quick to learn, easier to read for complex scores. Hindemith used it. But (1) You can't _add_ simplicity (2) Most software don't propose it. The extension seems feasible for Lilypond.


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## Enthalpy

One information source is the
*LilyPond Notation Reference* at lilypond.org​in its version 2.20, it's the chapter 1.1.3 Displaying pitches > Automatic accidentals

Here's an example of the *Obukhov notation* (click to enlarge). Quite efficient.


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## pianozach

Enthalpy said:


> Beware these conventions change with the epoch. In the example they matter little and the result is clear, but in other music one must apply different rules.
> 
> While key signatures apply to all octaves, it's not always the case for accidentals. Maybe, but maybe not. You have to guess.
> 
> Some scores cancel the accidentals even if a bar did before. Other scores don't.
> 
> Especially for the piano: accidentals at the left hand may apply to the right hand too - or not. Ha ha. Same if several instruments share a score in an orchestra. Even more fun: the most usual convention differs between singers and instruments. I knew you'd like that one.
> 
> And: some recent music has no key signature, and accidentals apply to one single note only. Or even, every note carries an accidental, even if it's a natural and the previous was a natural too.
> 
> Don't forget French horns, nearly always written without a key signature, as opposed to the rest of the orchestra.
> 
> Editors tend to follow the use of the time they print a score and alter the accidentals accordingly - but not always. So if you get an ancient score or a recent score of ancient music, you must wonder what the conventions are.
> 
> In this context, redundant indications are welcome. It's even common practice to cancel an accidental from the previous bar. Only several bars later are accidentals considered safely forgotten. The same holds for different octaves: most editors go the safe way, suppose that the reader ignores whether an accidental applies to other octaves too, and give redundant indications. Nice of them.
> 
> Your piece is probably extracted from a bigger work. If previous bars had accidentals, your extract kept the naturals, for bad or excellent reasons.
> 
> I know one single solution to this absolute mess: the Obukhov notation. No key signature, no accidentals. An X notehead instead of O means this single note is a semitone higher. Quick to learn, easier to read for complex scores. Hindemith used it. But (1) You can't _add_ simplicity (2) Most software don't propose it. The extension seems feasible for Lilypond.


While these notes are indeed correct, for most beginners none of these will be an issues.

There's some simple modern conventions that make this all pretty easy.

1 & 2) Key signatures: They designate all of that note written on THAT STAFF to be altered. Your flat on the B means that ALL B's on that staff will be a Bb. Music for beginners is unlikely to have a RH and LH part in different key signatures.

3 & 8) The natural cancels THAT particular accidental for the rest of the measure. It does not apply to any other Bb on that staff.

5) It's a new measure. If you want the B to be played as a natural B, you have to re-apply that directive.

9 & 10) The natural is a "courtesy" accidental, to remind you that the G# no longer applies, as it's a new measure. "Courtesy" accidentals are often put in parentheses. The convention is that a new measure cancels all directives given in previous measures, and pointing out that it's now natural again, as it was at the beginning of the piece, is unnecessary. The same with the Bb - it does not need the designation that it's now a Bb, you would already know it is a Bb as it is in the key signature, and any previous alterations to the key signature in previous measures are cancelled. The flat sign in the previous measure doesn't matter to THIS measure, and was unnecessary in THAT measure to begin with. It was simply a "courtesy" flat to remind you, as a beginner, that it's now flat again.


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