# Franz Liszt



## JTech82

Liszt was the only contemporary whose music Richard Wagner gratefully acknowledged as an influence upon his own. His lasting fame was an alchemy of extraordinary digital ability -- the greatest in the history of keyboard playing -- an unmatched instinct for showmanship, and one of the most progressive musical imaginations of his time. Hailed by some as a visionary, reviled by others as a symbol of empty Romantic excess, Franz Liszt wrote his name across music history in a truly inimitable manner.

From his youth, Liszt demonstrated a natural facility at the keyboard that placed him among the top performing prodigies of his day. Though contemporary accounts describe his improvisational skill as dazzling, his talent as a composer emerged only in his adulthood. Still, he was at the age of eleven the youngest contributor to publisher Anton Diabelli's famous variation commissioning project, best remembered as the inspiration for Beethoven's final piano masterpiece. An oft-repeated anecdote -- first recounted by Liszt himself decades later, and possibly fanciful -- has Beethoven attending a recital given by the youngster and bestowing a kiss of benediction upon him.

Though already a veteran of the stage by his teens, Liszt recognized the necessity of further musical tuition. He studied for a time with Czerny and Salieri in Vienna, and later sought acceptance to the Paris Conservatory. When he was turned down there -- foreigners were not then admitted -- he instead studied privately with Anton Reicha. Ultimately, his Hungarian origins proved a great asset to his career, enhancing his aura of mystery and exoticism and inspiring an extensive body of works, none more famous than the Hungarian Rhapsodies (1846-1885).

Liszt soon became a prominent figure in Parisian society, his romantic entanglements providing much material for gossip. Still, not even the juiciest accounts of his amorous exploits could compete with the stories about his wizardry at the keyboard. Inspired by the superhuman technique -- and, indeed, diabolical stage presence -- of the violinist Paganini, Liszt set out to translate these qualities to the piano. As his career as a touring performer, conductor, and teacher burgeoned, he began to devote an increasing amount of time to composition. He wrote most of his hundreds of original piano works for his own use; accordingly, they are frequently characterized by technical demands that push performers -- and in Liszt's own day, the instrument itself -- to their limits. The "transcendence" of his Transcendental Etudes (1851), for example, is not a reference to the writings of Emerson and Thoreau, but an indication of the works' level of difficulty. Liszt was well into his thirties before he mastered the rudiments of orchestration -- works like the Piano Concerto No. 1 (1849) were orchestrated by talented students -- but made up for lost time in the production of two "literary" symphonies (Faust, 1854-1857, and Dante, 1855-1856) and a series of orchestral essays (including Les préludes, 1848-1854) that marks the genesis of the tone poem as a distinct genre.

After a lifetime of near-constant sensation, Liszt settled down somewhat in his later years. In his final decade he joined the Catholic Church and devoted much of his creative effort to the production of sacred works. The complexion of his music darkened; the flash that had characterized his previous efforts gave way to a peculiar introspection, manifested in strikingly original, forward-looking efforts like Nuages gris (1881). Liszt died in Bayreuth, Germany, on July 31, 1886, having outlived Wagner, his son-in-law and greatest creative beneficiary.

(Article taken from All Music Guide)

What do you all think of this wonderful composer? His orchestral works and piano concertos are just amazing.


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## Bach

Good piano composer - the Faust Symphony isn't particularly inspired..


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## JTech82

Bach said:


> The Faust Symphony isn't particularly inspired..


Nothing you say is particularly inspired.


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## Bach

Oh, my mistake - the Faust symphony is one of the finest examples of 19th century orchestral composition.


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## JTech82

Bach said:


> Oh, my mistake - the Faust symphony is one of the finest examples of 19th century orchestral composition.


Love the biting sarcasm. Can I get fries with that?


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## Bach

An American who recognises the subtleties (...) of rhetoric. For you, fries are the least I can offer.


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## JTech82

Bach said:


> An American who recognises the subtleties (...) of rhetoric. For you, fries are the least I can offer.


Then again this is coming from somebody who has a picture of Bach on their avatar. Such an intellectual pinhead you are.

But then again that's Bach for you, all intellect and no soul.


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## Bach

Aren't you a lovely fella..


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## R-F

So, yeah, moving swiftly on...
I really like Liszt, especially his piano works. Shame they're just too darn difficult to probably ever play!


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## Weston

We are such a contrary species. For me the Liszt piano works represent over the top romantic bombast, or have in the past anyway. I think my personal tastes did not lean toward so much rubato and dramatic pauses -- although for some reason dramatic pauses do not bother me in Beethoven.

But recently I rediscovered the awsome power of his orchestral tone poems. _Les Preludes _must have made people faint in its day if a truly large orchestra was used. It has certainly made my own heart race.

So I'm willing to give the piano works another chance.

I have always respected Liszt as one of the first rock stars so to speak. He led quite a colorful life, culminating in profound sprituality. Someday I must find a full biography to read.


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## jurianbai

virtuosic but too complicated. I only remember love his waltzs and of course the bloody Liebesträume, ironic it's Richard Clayderman that introduce it to me.


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## Weston

jurianbai said:


> virtuosic but too complicated. I only remember love his waltzs and of course the bloody Liebesträume, ironic it's Richard Clayderman that introduce it to me.


It could be worse. I was introduced to _Liebesträume_ via the awful Ken Russel movie _Lisztomania_. Trust me, none of you want to go there. [And my sincerest apologies for even bringing it up in these forums.]


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## JTech82

Weston said:


> It could be worse. I was introduced to _Liebesträume_ via the awful Ken Russel movie _Lisztomania_. Trust me, none of you want to go there. [And my sincerest apologies for even bringing it up in these forums.]


Thanks for bringing up some bad memories!


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## David C Coleman

The Symphonic poems are really interesting. (Don't forget he developed the medium). Nr. 1 called "Bergsymphonie" is symphonic in stature, length and vision. And is a remarkable composition for its era..


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## Sid James

I think that *Liszt's* _*Piano Concertos *_were groundbreaking works. I mean, within a decade or so of Beethoven's death, Liszt had done away with the sonata form & replaced it with a free rhapsodic form. Of course they're technically brilliant & virtuostic, but there's also a fair amount of poetry, especially in the second. Not to mention drama. Given a good soloist, like Georges Cziffra, Casadesus or Thibaudet, these works can really shine. The _*Totentanz*_ & _*Hungarian Fantasy*_ are representative works also.


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## Edmond-Dantes

Andre said:


> I think that *Liszt's* _*Piano Concertos *_were groundbreaking works. I mean, within a decade or so of Beethoven's death, Liszt had done away with the sonata form & replaced it with a free rhapsodic form. Of course they're technically brilliant & virtuostic, but there's also a fair amount of poetry, especially in the second. Not to mention drama. Given a good soloist, like Georges Cziffra, Casadesus or Thibaudet, these works can really shine. The _*Totentanz*_ & _*Hungarian Fantasy*_ are representative works also.


I completely agree. Franz Lizts has to be in my top.. 5 favorite composers, as his piano works are all truly amazing.


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## Sid James

JTech82 said:


> *Liszt was well into his thirties before he mastered the rudiments of orchestration *-- works like the Piano Concerto No. 1 (1849) were orchestrated by talented students -- but made up for lost time in the production of two "literary" symphonies (Faust, 1854-1857, and Dante, 1855-1856) and a series of orchestral essays (including Les préludes, 1848-1854) that marks the genesis of the tone poem as a distinct genre.


At the beginning, Liszt had not learnt fully how to orchestrate, another example to that given above being the _Hungarian Rhapsodies_, orchestrated by Franz Doppler. Perhaps this was because he was not accepted into the Paris Conservatory. But as the essay says, he made up for this later with the magnificent _Les Preludes_, probably one of the greatest tone poems ever written.

I'm looking forward to buying the _Faust Symphony _at one stage, as I haven't heard it before & I'm interested in how he tackled the vocal/choral/symphonic genres.


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## Edward Elgar

I think the B minor Sonata is his greatest work and one of the greatest sonatas ever written. The whole half hour of continuous music is, for me, a battle between finely wrought structure and key-smoking virtuosity. At many points, the structure takes priority, but that double octave trickery near the end never fails to give me goosebumps!

It's a bit of a shame about his orchestral music though. I think he was just cut out for solo piano to be honest. Was anyone else dissapointed with his Piano Concerto No.1? What a boring piece!


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## handlebar

Edward Elgar said:


> I think the B minor Sonata is his greatest work and one of the greatest sonatas ever written. The whole half hour of continuous music is, for me, a battle between finely wrought structure and key-smoking virtuosity. At many points, the structure takes priority, but that double octave trickery near the end never fails to give me goosebumps!
> 
> It's a bit of a shame about his orchestral music though. I think he was just cut out for solo piano to be honest. Was anyone else dissapointed with his Piano Concerto No.1? What a boring piece!


I completely agree. The Sonata is indeed one of the towering achievements in music. And you are right about his orchestral music. His concertos are both rather bland although they do have a few moments of sparkle under the right pianist. Zimerman does well with this. There are a few others too such as Rosenthal,one of Liszt's pupils.And add Sauer too.

He was indeed THE most preeminent composer/pianist/performers of the last 2 centuries IMHO. Nobody rivaled his ability at these three positions.

Jim


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## Herzeleide

I adore Liszt. I think _Bénédiction de Dieu dans la Solitude_ is his greatest work. I love the B minor sonata but _Bénédiction_ just takes me places that no other musical work does.


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## handlebar

Herzeleide said:


> I adore Liszt. I think _Bénédiction de Dieu dans la Solitude_ is his greatest work. I love the B minor sonata but _Bénédiction_ just takes me places that no other musical work does.


Yes!!! Thanks for mentioning that. A divine work indeed. Not played enough nor recirded enough. Everyone goes straight to the Sonata or the pilgrimage books first.
More pianists need to record Benediction de Dieu

Jim


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## Lisztfreak

Recently I've got into his late music a bit more. It is radically different from his earlier works - you can still recognise the style, but it's not easy. I love the Faust Symphony, but Dante I find better. And the Magnificat chorus in the end is truly heavenly, especially in the boys' choir version.
Whoever thinks Liszt's music is cheap must try the following:
Piano sonata in B minor
Benediction de dieu
Dante Symphony, the 2nd part in particular
Valse mélancolique (an obscure but beautiful piece)
chamber works (there are only a few and they're mainly arrangements)
Via Crucis
Third year from the Annees de pelerinage

Your opinion should change after these... if not, you're a dim-witted unmusical sod!


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## Sid James

It looks like he had two sides to his character & music: the more extrovert and upbeat works (eg. _Piano Concerto No. 1, Hungarian Rhapsodies_) & the more introverted & personal works (_Sonata in B minor_, late piano works & some of the others that Lisztfreak mentions above). I think that other works, like the more contemplative _Les Preludes & Piano Concerto No. 2_ don't fall easily into either category.

I'd like to listen to his symphonies in particular and maybe some of his later piano works. The latter had a marked influence on composers like Debussy & Ravel, in their piano output. It seems that, as time went on, his music became more 'objective,' as much about painting pictures as about expressing emotions.


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## Lisztfreak

Andre said:


> It looks like he had two sides to his character & music


Indeed, just like Elgar, Sibelius and Shostakovich, for example. It seems that musical bipolar disorder is a frequently occurring disease.


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## Herzeleide

Lisztfreak said:


> Third year from the Annees de pelerinage


This is a fantastic set of pieces. It really works as a whole too - the effect of the beatific beauty of _Les Jeux d'Eaux à la Villa d'Este_ is redoubled since it follows the two aching, dolorous pieces both called _Aux Cyprès de la Villa d'Este_.

Some of Liszt's late piano music is totally unique. Is there a selection of music which moves with such subtlety between various modes of depression and melancholy? Virgins to this incomparable selection ought to start with the two versions of _La lugubre gondola_ - Liszt wrote them after a premonition of Wagner's body floating down a canal in Venice on a gondola... which turned out to be true.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Late_works_(Liszt)


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## Lisztfreak

Thanks for the link, it was very interesting to read such a detailed article on the topic.

As the Lisztfreak, I have always been particularly proud of Liszt being a progressive and quite revolutionary musical genius.


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## Sid James

I've just listened to _*A Faust Symphony *_for the first time, and I think it is a very rich & complex piece. Definitely on par with Berlioz' symphonies, who it was dedicated to. The first movement seems to drag on for a bit too long, it outstays it's welcome, and has quite a bit of bombast. But that's Liszt, I suppose. The second movement is my favourite, it is very warm & lyrical, a picture of idealised womanhood. Then the final movement, with it's imposing conclusion, where Liszt employs chorus & tenor soloist to picture a descent into hell. This is only slightly less affective than Berlioz' _La Damnation de Faust_, but it is a thrilling conclusion to what is ultimately a rewarding work.


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## Lisztfreak

Andre said:


> Then the final movement, with it's imposing conclusion, where Liszt employs chorus & tenor soloist to picture a descent into hell. This is only slightly less affective than Berlioz' _La Damnation de Faust_, but it is a thrilling conclusion to what is ultimately a rewarding work.


Descent to hell? But isn't it about _das ewig Weibliche_, about the eternal feminine that 'draws us aloft'?

I always liked the way Liszt distorts the motifs and heroic gestures from the first movement in the last one. Mephisto becomes a wicked alter-ego of Faust's.


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## Herzeleide

Andre said:


> Then the final movement, with it's imposing conclusion, where Liszt employs chorus & tenor soloist to picture a descent into hell.




Alles Vergängliche
Ist nur ein Gleichnis
Das Unzulängliche
Hier wirds Ereignis;
Das Unbeschreibliche
Hier ist's getan;
ALLES GEHT
ZU DER HÖLLE!!!


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## Sid James

Lisztfreak said:


> Descent to hell? But isn't it about _das ewig Weibliche_, about the eternal feminine that 'draws us aloft'?


It is about a spiritual rather than physical hell, I suppose. Less fire & brimstone than, say, the end of the Berlioz.

Liszt wasn't the first composer to employ singers with choir into concluding a symphony (obviously, Beethoven did that in his ninth). However, the way he employs these rather sparingly, only at the very end, reminds me of more modern works like Debussy's _Nocturnes_ & even more so, Holst's _Neptune_ from _The Planets_. The choir especially brings a sense of otherwordliness & drifting in an alternate world, conjuring a different mental landscape from the rest of the symphony which is purely instrumental.


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## Herzeleide

Andre said:


> It is about a spiritual rather than physical hell, I suppose.


I think you'll find it's about going to the _opposite_ of hell! 'The eternal feminine draws us upward' - since when does one go upward to hell?


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## Lisztfreak

Yes, it's not about hell, definitely, I'd say it's about the same feminine power and principle that governs Elgar's Violin Concerto. The mystical properties of the feminine, also worshipped by some hermeneutic orders. You know, 'The Da Vinci Code' and stuff... there is a lot of reality basis to the book, however.

I feel obliged to say something in defence of Liszt's piano concertos. They fulfill their role as devices of virtuosity. They are full of demanding passages. On the other hand, they are also abundant in drama, excitement, stormy chords, dissonance, a masterful interplay between the soloist and the orchestra, and one can even find serene and meditative moments. I bow to concertos that have a deep message vowen into them (like Elgar's concertos, for example) and I enjoy them, but flash, thunder and drama are enough, in my opinion, to make a very good concerto. Nothing more is necessary. The concerto is not, by definition, a serious musical form, unlike the symphony or the string quartet.


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## Sid James

I was obviously wrong about *Liszt*'s _Faust Symphony _ending in hell.

But *Berlioz*' _La Damnation de Faust _seems to end with Faust going to hell, falling into a hole with Mephistopheles.

I haven't read the original from Geothe, so which composer was closer to the source? Does Faust go to hell, but Marguerite saved from it (hence the reference to being drawn upward, i.e. away from hell)?


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## Sid James

I went to Wikipedia & kind of answered my own question...The Berlioz & Liszt both ended in a similar way.

Having listened to the Liszt again, the second slow movement has this almost Brucknerian grace to it. But the part that most captures my attention is the final movement (_Mephistopheles_). Generally, I think Liszt did a fairly decent job at orchestration in this work. He might not be up there with Berlioz, but the music's drama and emotionalism carry you off, so it's still an interesting work to listen to. Mind you, sometimes I think that a little editing would have not gone astray, as the entire work last 75 minutes in total.


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## Sid James

I found the following notes on the Naxos site (by Keith Anderson), which clears up some of my confusion earlier:



> Where the Elizabethan version of the story by Christopher Marlowe brought Faust to a medieval Hell, Goethe's monumental and influential poetic treatment of the subject ended in the final redemption of Faust through the power of love and of the woman he had wronged, Gretchen...The added final chorus and tenor solo offers a final song of serene triumph over evil, in the words of Goethe:
> 
> Alles Vergängliche ist nur ein Gleichnis,
> das Unzulängliche, hier wird's Ereignis,
> das Unbeschreibliche, hier wird es getan,
> das Ewigweibliche zieht uns hinan.
> 
> (All transitory things are but a likeness;
> what is insufficient, here becomes a true event;
> what is unwritten, here is accomplished;
> the eternal feminine draws us upwards.)


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## Mirror Image

Andre said:


> I went to Wikipedia & kind of answered my own question...The Berlioz & Liszt both ended in a similar way.
> 
> Having listened to the Liszt again, the second slow movement has this almost Brucknerian grace to it. But the part that most captures my attention is the final movement (_Mephistopheles_). Generally, I think Liszt did a fairly decent job at orchestration in this work. He might not be up there with Berlioz, but the music's drama and emotionalism carry you off, so it's still an interesting work to listen to. Mind you, sometimes I think that a little editing would have not gone astray, as the entire work last 75 minutes in total.


The beauty of Liszt, in my opinion, is his ability to carry you places emotionally. Listen to "Orpheus" where he beats you over the head with those pounding strings. He's a great composer I think. He may not be one of the best, but he wrote some very emotionally riveting music no doubt about it.


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## handlebar

I also appreciate that he can be virtuosic at one time and very passionate and romantic the next.

Jim


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## Herzeleide

handlebar said:


> I also appreciate that he can be virtuosic at one time and very passionate and romantic the next.
> 
> Jim


Yes... Liszt's music was/is all things to all people, as reflected in his protean personality!


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## handlebar

Protean or protein???? I consider his music as protein:real meat filled with vigor!!!

Jim


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## Herzeleide

handlebar said:


> Protean or protein????


The former.


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## Herzeleide

Andre said:


> I was obviously wrong about *Liszt*'s _Faust Symphony _ending in hell.
> 
> But *Berlioz*' _La Damnation de Faust _seems to end with Faust going to hell, falling into a hole with Mephistopheles.
> 
> I haven't read the original from Geothe, so which composer was closer to the source? Does Faust go to hell, but Marguerite saved from it (hence the reference to being drawn upward, i.e. away from hell)?


Faust ends up in hell in Goethe's version, before achieving redemption. Liszt's Faust Symphony shouldn't be read as though it follows the story: it's three character sketches (with the exception of the beatific ending).


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## jmberros

Hello everybody, this is my first post. 

I came here to ask for your advice. I've listened to classical music for some years now and I particularly like solo piano works. Lately, I've been discovering Liszt. I downloaded the complete piano works by Leslie Howard (95 cds!) but I'm not sure where to start. SO:

*What are the CAN'T-MISS solo piano works by Liszt?*
(besides the Hungarian Rhapsodies, which I already know)

I know he must have a lot of unmissable works, but you know, I have to start somewhere. And since I don't have all the time in the world, and I also listen to music other than classical, I wanted to go directly to the best of him.

Thanks in advance, I have already read some of your favorites in the previous posts.


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## Air

jmberros said:


> Hello everybody, this is my first post.
> 
> I came here to ask for your advice. I've listened to classical music for some years now and I particularly like solo piano works. Lately, I've been discovering Liszt. I downloaded the complete piano works by Leslie Howard (95 cds!) but I'm not sure where to start. SO:
> 
> *What are the CAN'T-MISS solo piano works by Liszt?*
> (besides the Hungarian Rhapsodies, which I already know)
> 
> I know he must have a lot of unmissable works, but you know, I have to start somewhere. And since I don't have all the time in the world, and I also listen to music other than classical, I wanted to go directly to the best of him.
> 
> Thanks in advance, I have already read some of your favorites in the previous posts.


Welcome aboard, jmberros!

My favorites are:

Piano Sonata
Années de Pèlerinage
Dante Sonata
La lugubre gondola
Mephisto Waltzes

Various Transcriptions and Paraphrases, particularly Auf dem Wasser zu singen (Schubert), Hemaxeron (Bellini), Reminiscences of Don Juan (Mozart), Waltz from Faust (Gounod), and Sarabande and Chaconne from Almira (Handel)

Air


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## jmberros

many thanks airad2

I'll start with the années de pèlerinage, I guess. Any recommendation on that? Premiere, Deuxieme or Troisieme annee?


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## Air

jmberros said:


> many thanks airad2
> 
> I'll start with the années de pèlerinage, I guess. Any recommendation on that? Premiere, Deuxieme or Troisieme annee?


Troisieme. I think about every member on this forum can back me up on this one.


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## Guest

ricordanza...


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## Rasa

Today I had the pleasure of hearing the étude Un Sospiro live at the conservatory exam sessions.

Very enchanting music. Simple in spirit, virtuoso in execution.


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## Padawan

I just listened to Transcendental Etudes After Paganini, S 140 - 3. La Campanella performed by Kazune Shimizu. It was quite delightful, like twinkling bells.


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## Olivier

Ahh Transcendental Etudes--love the Jorge Bolet version....


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## emiellucifuge

I have a deep admiration for Liszt.

His Piano Works are just beyond earthly standards, but his orchestral works are just so intellectually complex.


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## Mirror Image

emiellucifuge said:


> but his orchestral works are just so intellectually complex.


I would also add emotionally gutsy as well. Lots of bottom-end. "Orpheus" and "Faust Symphony" come immediately to mind as being gutsy.


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## Taneyev

About the Trascendental, if you think they are difficult, you should consider that they are a "simplified" revision of the first ones (1838). There are very few recordings.


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## Sid James

Finally, after listening a few times to Liszt's _*A Faust Symphony*_ over the past 12-18 months, it's finally "clicked" for me. I can understand now how he develops a single theme over the entire 75 minutes, in a very holistic and integrated way. Before, I thought that Liszt's use of more pared-down orchestration in the first two movemenets (_Faust; Gretchen_) compared to the very colourful third & final (_Mephistopheles_) was unbalanced, but now I'm beginning to understand perhaps why he did this. I think he holds back a bit in the first two so that the last one can be more contrasting and climactic. The first two are more dominated by the strings, with the other sections of the orchestra just adding more "backing," but the last one is a tour de force for the whole orchestra. Also, the thematic development in this work is nothing short of revolutionary.

Even though Beethoven (_Symphony No. 6 'Pastoral'_) & Berlioz (_Symphonie Fantastique_) started the ball rolling with their epic and monothematic symphonies, people like Liszt in this work & Schumann (_Symphony No. 4_) just took the concept a step further. Liszt's technique of thematic development sounds more C20th (looking forward to people like Schoenberg, Dutilleux & Carter), in that he continuously gives us small cells or fragments which gradually build up, and he hardly looks back. Indeed, he also wasn't very far off from what Debussy (_Jeux_) and Scriabin (_Poem of Ecstasy_) would be doing 50 years later, in the early C20th. The way Liszt uses the harps and organ, which combine with the whole ensemble in this huge chordal climax, reminds me strongly of the Scriabin (although he didn't use a choir).

People around here probably already know how Liszt had a huge influence on Wagner and Schoenberg in terms of totally overhauling traditional concepts of thematic development and tonality. I was reading the earlier posts & strongly disagree with former member Bach who suggested _Faust_ was not particularly inspired or good. I'm in totally the opposite camp, I think it's a masterpiece, just as groundbreaking and significant as those key works I mentioned above. He looked so much forward that it is basically staggering, and people who see him as just being yet another flashy pianist-composer are stuck in the mid C19th. During his life, he was apparently known more as a piano super star (sex symbol?) or even conductor than a composer. People continuing this limited view are out of touch with the truth: he was a very significant composer, not only of piano music, but also of orchestral music. Anyone who questions this should listen to this symphony as a start. I know it takes some getting used to, but when you have climbed it's summit, a whole vast and epic landscape just spreads out before you.

Now, having heard this work, as well as all the works for piano and orchestra, the _Sonata in B minor _and some smaller piano works, as well as some of the _Hungarian Rhapsodies _and tone poems, I am ready to explore his _Years of Pilgramage_. Can anyone make some astute recommendations regarding recordings? I think I saw Kocsis/Brendel 2 cd set in the shops. Is that a good one to get? I might also jump onto classicstoday to see what the reviewers think there...


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## SatiesFaction

R-F said:


> So, yeah, moving swiftly on...
> I really like Liszt, especially his piano works. Shame they're just too darn difficult to probably ever play!


Have you tried Consolation n°1? It's a short and delicate piece that I was able to play about a year after I started learning the piano. It's rather easy, unless you have tiny hands.


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## Aramis

> Can anyone make some astute recommendations regarding recordings?


Leslie Howard is great Liszt performer. He recorded everything that Liszt composed for solo piano (including transcriptions) so if you don't know what to get, get his recording.


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## teccomin

Get Jorge Bolet's Decca set.


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## Il Seraglio

Andre said:


> Even though Beethoven (_Symphony No. 6 'Pastoral'_) & Berlioz (_Symphonie Fantastique_) started the ball rolling with their epic and monothematic symphonies, people like Liszt in this work & Schumann (_Symphony No. 4_) just took the concept a step further. Liszt's technique of thematic development sounds more C20th (looking forward to people like Schoenberg, Dutilleux & Carter), in that he continuously gives us small cells or fragments which gradually build up, and he hardly looks back. Indeed, he also wasn't very far off from what Debussy (_Jeux_) and Scriabin (_Poem of Ecstasy_) would be doing 50 years later, in the early C20th. The way Liszt uses the harps and organ, which combine with the whole ensemble in this huge chordal climax, reminds me strongly of the Scriabin (although he didn't use a choir).


I believe Debussy described himself as an admirer of Liszt so it's no surprise that the impressionists seem to take after him.

Regarding Liszt's orchestral works, I find a great deal of enjoyment in his symphonic poems, particularly Prometheus and Hungarica. Liszt was a trend setter, although his aggressive use of horns and tubas and altogether "big" sound in the symphonies and symphonic poems still set these pieces firmly in the 19th century.

Great as they are, I think his piano works are more emotionally complex and tend not to dull as much with repeat listening with the four valse oubliees and the eerily prescient _La Lugubre Gondola_ which he wrote relatively late in his life being my personal favourites. They reflect an older, more introspective Liszt.


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## Sid James

Thanks for the recommendations of L. Howard & Bolet recordings of Liszt's _Years of Pilgrimage_. I have heard the latter's Liszt recordings (for piano & orchestra), and I liked his no-nonsense approach (but still quite poetic, from what I remember). I'm just a bit exasperated by Cziffra. I have a recording of the works for piano & orchestra (concertos, totentanz, hungarian fantasy), and they take some getting used to becuase he is somewhat too flamboyant. I've heard Brendel's interpretation of the _Sonata in B minor_, and I thought that was more engaging on many deeper levels, because the pianist didn't get in the way of the interpretation. I think that I have stronger preferences in the piano versus purely orchestral realm (though don't mind all of the above, I appreciate them on different levels). Plus, the biggest drawback on the Cziffra is not only his extroversion but the sound engineering of the early 1970's recording from EMI France, which is nothing to write home about. If anything, they make the whole thing seem unbalanced, and the piano is almost completely drowned out by the brass and timpani in the conclusions. Still, the EMI Encore disc was a mere $10, so no use crying over spilt milk. I still enjoy it occassionally, but it's not as rewarding as say Richter's powerhouse interpretation of the two concertos I have on LP. More dramatic, with no (cheap?) thrills...


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## Vesteralen

Following Almaviva's suggestion, I looked (and looked, and looked) for a thread on Liszt...and I found one!

The bad news is, I'm going against character here, because I don't like to post negatives. It's just that I recently finished reading the cover article on Liszt in the latest BBC Music Magazine, and I had to come face to face with the fact that, for some reason, Lizst is one composer who has never reached me as a listener. I found myself kind of rooting for the guy after finishing the article, but I still can't think of a thing he composed that would make it on to my personal Essentials list.

It just seems to me that it's the music itself. I listened to the Faust Symphony three times two weeks ago, and, unlike Sid, I still didn't get it. It just bored me. Same with the Piano Concerto #1. I have it on a CD with the Chopin #1 and I usually play the Chopin and then turn it off. It isn't that it isn't emotional or dramatic. But, I often find myself reacting with boredom when I feel like I'm getting hit over the head with drama. I guess I need a little subtlety for it to work for me.

Maybe I'll have to try again. I've had the experience before of changing my mind after some determined listening. Maybe there are subtleties in Liszt's music that I just haven't felt yet.


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## SatiesFaction

Have you tried listening to some of his solo piano music? Consolations, Etudes, Années de Pèlerinage... I love most of these, while I don't care much for the bombastic concertos. The Faust Symphony doesn't move me much either, contrary to some of the tone poems, like Mazeppa and Orpheus.

Sometimes it turns out to be impossible to connect with a certain composer. I tried to connect with Mozart and Brahms many times, but failed. I finally accepted the fact that their music would never move me


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## Lisztian

Hello everyone! I'm glad to be one of the Lisztians on this forum  He is my favourite composer for solo piano...and recently i've been looking into a really neglected cycle...the Harmonies poétiques et religieuses. While I do prefer the Annees, this set needs more attention IMO. Sure the Funerailles and Benediction are not neglected pieces (although the Benediction is so masterful you can make a case that it still is), the rest of the set is also very rewarding. The set did however take me awhile to understand, in fact at first I was partial to it (in fact I thought most of it was trash), but with repeated listening, boy has that changed. I think that Pensee des morts (thoughts of the dead) is nearly on the level of the two masterpieces I just mentioned. It's such a dark, powerful, moving piece, and certainly lives up to its title.

While those three are clearly the high points of the set, the others are also works that need more attention. The 'Invocation' is another powerful work...this one out of all in the set took me by far the longest to understand and is not short on bombast, but with repeated listens the bombast starts to make sense in what I now see as a profound, uplifting work. 'Ave Maria' is a transcription of a choral piece that Liszt wrote. It is a beautiful work, and yet I didn't get it right away either...As i've explored Liszt, it seems that more than almost any other composer, his work takes getting used to, and they take time to understand...but once you do you have found a pot of gold.

I am not yet familiar enough with the second half of set to comment, although I have listened to them all (but not digested) and I thoroughly enjoyed the pieces, although there are certainly a couple of weaker moments here...I especially enjoyed the 'Misere, after Palestrina.' (Not including the Funerailles of course).

Anyway I just thought i'd post this to recommend what I consider a masterful set, and spend some time with it...as I mentioned it isn't an easy set to digest. Although i'm sure many of you are already familiar with it. However, I would NOT recommend this set to those new to Liszt and trying to get a taste for the composer...Look into the Sonata, and Annees de Pelerinage for that.

The recordings i've been listening to are on youtube...starting with 



. I hadn't heard of the pianist before and i'm not even sure if they are relatively good recordings, but a full survey of the set is rare, and this is the only one I could really find. I did obviously thoroughly enjoy the playing though, so if it isn't great playing, i'm looking forward to looking into other performances! Every piece in the set is there, you may have to look a little but you can find them. I really need to buy a CD!

The set includes 10 pieces...

1. Invocation
2. Ave Maria
3. Bénédiction de Dieu dans la solitude 
4. Pensée des morts 
5. Pater Noster (the weakest point of the set)
6. Hymne de l'enfant à son réveil 
7. Funérailles
8. Miserere, d'après Palestrina 
9. Andante lagrimoso
10. Cantique d'amour

I hope you guys find this set as rewarding as I am!


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## jdavid

Liszt's Sonata in B Minor S. 178 is the most significant 19th century piano sonata post-Beethoven. Jorge Bolet's recording is superb. This is a 2-disc, all Liszt recording.


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## Lisztian

^^ I have those discs...Simply tremendous all around. Highly recommended.


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## Lisztian

For some reason I can't edit my first post in this thread. I just realised I had the definition of the word 'partial' wrong. I intended to mean...it didn't touch me, didn't find it interesting, etc.


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## violadude

Franz Liszt-

pieces I have by Liszt

Piano Sonata
Hungarian Rhapsodies 2, 3, 8, 13, 15, 17
Csardas Obstinee 
La Campanella Paganini étude
Forgotten Waltz No. 1 in f sharp minor
Transcendantal études 5 and 11
Petrarch's Sonnet No. 123
Les Preludes
Orpheus
Mazeppa
Hamlet
Die Hunnenschlacht

I guess I feel about Franz Liszt how most people felt about him, deeply profound at best, empty bombast at worst. But his more virtuosic pieces can be fun too. Out of the pieces I have by him, I adore the piano sonata. It's my favorite piano piece by him, and one of my favorite piano pieces by anybody because of the amazing design of having an overall one movement sonata form, while still keeping the traditional 3 movement piano sonata form intact. All the themes come together in this piece so amazingly. Many of his other pieces I have I could keep or lose. His Hungarian Rhapsodies, despite having a reputation for empty bombast have quite a few special moments in them. Petrarch's sonnet 123 and etude 11 are really pretty. I think the best thing about Liszt are his harmonies, which are fun to listen to with historical context in mind because they are way out there for the time. I'm not terribly fond of Liszt's tone poems. I like Les Preludes. The other ones get pretty repetitive to me though. I really like Totentanz, I would take that piece over any of the tone poems I have by him.


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## Vaneyes

Lisztian said:


> ^^ I have those discs...Simply tremendous all around. Highly recommended.


Do you have Bolet's Everest and Vox reissued on Alto? "Sonata", "Mephisto", PCs 1 & 2.


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## Lisztian

Vaneyes said:


> Do you have Bolet's Everest and Vox reissued on Alto? "Sonata", "Mephisto", PCs 1 & 2.


No I don't! But i'd be interested in getting it.


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## Lisztian

^ Re my first post...EVERY time I hear this piece it blows me away. It is at this point my favourite piece in the set. Although it did take me awhile to warm up to it.










Pensees des morts (Thoughts of the Dead).


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## TrazomGangflow

I love his liebestraums. Great piano composer


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## HexameronVI

Bach said:


> Good piano composer - the Faust Symphony isn't particularly inspired..


I agree with you. To me, the Faust Symphony isn't very special.


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## Lisztian

HexameronVI said:


> I agree with you. To me, the Faust Symphony isn't very special.


I disagree vehemently. IMO it is a true masterpiece in both its quality of music, and in its innovation. In fact, out of every orchestral work I have heard, this one has given me the most pleasure. But hey, to each his own!


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## Air

Revisited the _Harmonies poétiques et religieuses_ today by listening to the "Bénédiction de Dieu dans la solitude". Absolutely heavenly! The way Liszt can use the full force of the piano to carry such a gorgeous melody makes one feel like they are being propelled into a bath of sunlight. The crystalline broken chords and arpeggios carry the mood of the benediction, sweeping one over a river of gold into the sky on full-fledged wings. Liszt never lacks direction, that heavenly breeze just carries one along, but at the same time the piece is pensive, an internal peace, rather than an external one. It's almost like a dream, a metaphor of how the soul feels when it is in the blessing of a holy solitude. It is in this piece that Liszt shows why he is the master of the virtuosic language, in which bravura can be used to make someone "feel" a certain way and understand certain things about the music. This is not vapid showmanship at all; this is true, heartfelt brilliance. It's a wonder that this piece is not considered in the top 50... no, top 20 of all the piano works ever written. I'm serious here. I'm glad it made it on to our recommended list though, because now it is simply waiting to be discovered. It's wonderful that so many people still have this sadly neglected gem in store for them to listen to.

Arrau's meditative, peaceful tempo is spot on in this piece, even preferable to Bolet's:


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## Vaneyes

Lisztian said:


> I disagree vehemently. IMO it is a true masterpiece in both its quality of music, and in its innovation. In fact, out of every orchestral work I have heard, this one has given me the most pleasure. But hey, to each his own!


After eager anticipation, I heard Faust Symphony in the concert hall once. It was a dull performance. By the end of the first movement, I couldn't wait to get home and play the BSO/Bernstein recording. Fresh air.

There are many recorded failures with this work, which tells me there are many mysteries waiting to be unlocked.


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## Lisztian

Air said:


> Revisited the _Harmonies poétiques et religieuses_ today by listening to the "Bénédiction de Dieu dans la solitude". Absolutely heavenly! The way Liszt can use the full force of the piano to carry such a gorgeous melody makes one feel like they are being propelled into a bath of sunlight. The crystalline broken chords and arpeggios carry the mood of the benediction, sweeping one over a river of gold into the sky on full-fledged wings. Liszt never lacks direction, that heavenly breeze just carries one along, but at the same time the piece is pensive, an internal peace, rather than an external one. It's almost like a dream, a metaphor of how the soul feels when it is in the blessing of a holy solitude. It is in this piece that Liszt shows why he is the master of the virtuosic language, in which bravura can be used to make someone "feel" a certain way and understand certain things about the music. This is not vapid showmanship at all; this is true, heartfelt brilliance. It's a wonder that this piece is not considered in the top 50... no, top 20 of all the piano works ever written. I'm serious here. I'm glad it made it on to our recommended list though, because now it is simply waiting to be discovered. It's wonderful that so many people still have this sadly neglected gem in store for them to listen to.
> 
> Arrau's meditative, peaceful tempo is spot on in this piece, even preferable to Bolet's:


Terrific post! And thanks for the recording, I actually hadn't heard Arrau in this piece before! I think I still prefer Bolet, but this one is up there too! I just looked it up on Amazon and there is a CD with Arrau playing this piece, the Sonata, 2 concert Etudes, and Valee d'Obermann. I must get that disk!

The Bénédiction is a piece I have only recently rediscovered the magic of. I've been listening to the playlist on youtube of Leslie Howards complete Harmonies poétiques et religieuses with frequency. And while for the most part these are excellent, top flight performances (whether this is because of his distinguished playing or the lack of competition is something I am unsure of) his Bénédiction is poor. He rushes through it (14 minutes!) and his touch is for the most part too heavy. Leslie does tend to be better served interpreting the darker pieces rather than the more optimistic ones like the Bénédiction. (By the way, Howard's performance of Pensée des morts  is IMO not to be missed although he perhaps rushes through the first 2 minutes 10, the rest is breathtaking, but again there is not much competition for this work). So for awhile Howard's recording was the only one I heard, and it took its toll! It wasn't my favourite piece in the set anymore. However the other day I listened to Bolet playing it...and the magic was rediscovered. It shows with Liszt just how important the performer is to the result. And now hearing Arrau...it has retaken its place as one of my favourites!

Onto the actual piece, Air described it perfectly, basically taking the words out of my mouth (well not really, i'm not exactly the descriptive type, but if I was able to describe my feelings of the piece, that's what it would sound like). The piece is remarkable...and i'm not one to be moved to tears easily, but that beautiful melody starting at 17:21, after all that had come before it gets me every time.

"It is in this piece that Liszt shows why he is the master of the virtuosic language, in which bravura can be used to make someone "feel" a certain way and understand certain things about the music. This is not vapid showmanship at all; this is true, heartfelt brilliance." I agree 100%. Liszt was always exploring, experimenting, trying to make the best, most profound music possible, while exploiting what the piano was capable of to do so. In the best of Liszt, it worked. Pieces like the Bénédiction, second Ballade, the Sonata, Vallee d'Obermann, even the Dante Sonata (although some might disagree with me here). In these pieces, Liszt manages to find the perfect balance, and the result is almost undisputed masterpieces. Sometimes however it didn't work, and the reception to these pieces are a mixed bag. Pieces like the Grand Concert Solo, many of opera fantasies, etc, are definately pieces of excess. Some people (like me) love these pieces, others get turned off by the excess bravura, and the comments of 'vulgar' and 'bombastic' come out. (although most of these can hardly be called failures, as the opera fantasies were, for the most part not written to be masterpieces but to show off his unsurpassed pianistic ability). To me that's part of the charm of Liszt. He wasn't perfect, he was all too human, and he has his fair share of 'failures,' but he was always trying to make the best of himself and in his best work all the trial and error is suddenly worth it.


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## Lisztian

Vaneyes said:


> After eager anticipation, I heard Faust Symphony in the concert hall once. It was a dull performance. By the end of the first movement, I couldn't wait to get home and play the BSO/Bernstein recording. Fresh air.
> 
> There are many recorded failures with this work, which tells me there are many mysteries waiting to be unlocked.


Yes, Liszt is definately one of the hardest composers to interpret. He was such a complex character. You must strike the perfect balance between Liszt's romantic fire, his progressive and forward thinking, as well as his love for the classics and 'proper' interpretation. You have to bring out his excess, yet restrain it too. You must embrace not only his radical nature, but his deep intellectual mind at the same time - as well as often the programme of his music! Liszt's music is always a challenge, but IMO if you love this music and raise up to the challenge, it is a very worthwhile, rewarding endevour almost every time.


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## HexameronVI

Lisztian said:


> I disagree vehemently. IMO it is a true masterpiece in both its quality of music, and in its innovation. In fact, out of every orchestral work I have heard, this one has given me the most pleasure. But hey, to each his own!


Though, I do love the Dante Symphony.


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## Lisztian

HexameronVI said:


> Though, I do love the Dante Symphony.


As do I! Neglected, underrated masterpiece.


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## Lisztian

I've been hearing lots of people bashing Liszt lately for his 'uneven output, sure he wrote some good stuff, but be there is so much junk in his output he can hardly be considered a master.' This bugs me. Explore WHY his output is uneven. For a significant time in his life he was predominantly writing works to promote his unsurpassed pianistic ability, and explore what the piano is capable of. Yes there is a good deal of junk in here, but judging his mastery based on this stuff is ridiculous. He also was constantly experimenting, more than any other composer of the time, with new forms, new sounds, new styles, etc. Yeah his experiments didn't always work, but still I hardly think you can judge him on these failures either, when he was so influential and revolutionary due to them...He also, unlike many other composers, never destroyed any of his manuscripts. He left everything behind, even his less inspired efforts. I'm not saying that when he was trying to write work that had the main aim of being good music he was always top notch - he wasn't. NO ONE was though. I think when you look at it this way, bearing in mind and not judging his experimental and showstoppers written for exactly that reason, he was as even as most others.

Part of the glory of Liszt is just how diverse, radical, and broad a composer and human being he was. Some of his work is not to everyones taste, but I think among Liszt's enormous output there is a good deal of stuff for everyone. When I look at Liszt not only do I see a genius, revolutionary compser, but perhaps the greatest and most active musician of the 19th century. He was one of the leading conducters of the day, a huge promoter of new music both in his own work and his conducting, perhaps the greatest pianist who ever lived, and an infinitely generous man who wrote encouraging letters to other composers, by himself, the number of which ran into the thousands. As well as being a reknown womanizer, and the many, many other areas of his life, one is left gasping at how he was able to fit all this in one life. One of the true giants of the 19th century no matter which way you look at it. I think with how busy his life was, the fact that I don't believe, like most of the greats, he ever once focused entirely on composing - there was always a number of things going on, and all the aforementioned stuff, the fact that his output his so large, and is not short on masterpieces, and is IMO an absolutely first rate (and my favourite) composer, he was nothing short of an incredible man. Even if you are not fond of his music, this cannot be denied.

So the bottom line is that with all I have mentioned, his entire output is bound to be uneven! But I for one know that I will never judge the man for that, but rather for the endlessly remarkable figure he was, and the fact that a huge deal of his music speaks to me like no other composers does. So at the end of the day, to me he wrote just as many gems and masterpieces as most of the other great composers, and that is all that matters.


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## HexameronVI

His output isn't uneven. He wrote masterpieces, works that are good, and works that are just so so. This also describes every single composer.


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## Lisztian

HexameronVI said:


> His output isn't uneven. He wrote masterpieces, works that are good, and works that are just so so. This also describes every single composer.


Well to put it simply xD. But many don't buy that with Liszt, so I wanted to go a bit deeper.


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## moody

Padawan said:


> I just listened to Transcendental Etudes After Paganini, S 140 - 3. La Campanella performed by Kazune Shimizu. It was quite delightful, like twinkling bells.


It is about a tinkling bell-- La Campanella : The Little Bell !


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## TrazomGangflow

From what I've heard I love Liszt but I want to hear more. I can't find his CD's in stores. I guess I'll just have to order one online. Liszt is definately a groundbreaking piano composer.


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## itywltmt

My blog on the Liszt bicentennial:
http://www.talkclassical.com/blogs/itywltmt/435-better-late-than-never.html


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## larifari

More than 80 comments about Franz Liszt and only two fleeting mentions of his Hungarian Rhapsodies.

Incredible snobbery or incredible stupidity.


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## Scarpia

larifari said:


> More than 80 comments about Franz Liszt and only two fleeting mentions of his Hungarian Rhapsodies.
> 
> Incredible snobbery or incredible stupidity.


You take issue with the fact that people enjoy music by Liszt other than the Hungarian Rhapsodies. I'm seeing incredible snobbery _and _stupidity here, but not where you think you see it. :tiphat:


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## Artemis

larifari said:


> More than 80 comments about Franz Liszt and only two fleeting mentions of his Hungarian Rhapsodies.
> 
> Incredible snobbery or incredible stupidity.


I can't account for the lack of comment about the lack of discussion on the Hungarian Rhapsodies in this thread, but I doubt that it's due to any kind of snobbishness, more lack of interest.

You might possibly take some comfort from the fact that Liszt's _Hungarian Rhapsody No 2_ achieved 68th position in the recently completed T-C Top 200 Recommended Solo Keyboard Works, and was one position ahead of _Années de Pèlerinage_ at No 69. I had nothing to do with that poll, but I would say that the position accorded to _Années de Pèlerinage_ seems somewhat low and I would have rated this collection of works as excellent and given them a higher ranking.

Perhaps you could tell us what you think is so special about the _Hungarian Rhapsodies_ that might justify a bigger discussion of them compared with say the _Sonata in B Minor_, or _Années de Pèlerinage_, or any others by Liszt that have been discussed more fully?


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## Lisztian

larifari said:


> More than 80 comments about Franz Liszt and only two fleeting mentions of his Hungarian Rhapsodies.
> 
> Incredible snobbery or incredible stupidity.


I think the Hungarian Rhapsodies are terrific. I especially love 1, 2, 5, 6, 8, 10, 12, 14 (although I much prefer the Hungarian Fantasy version), 15...But I wouldn't count them among my favourite works by Liszt (although 2, 5, and 12 are some of my favourite solo piano works by him), which are what tend to be mentioned in a thread like this. Overall I think the Annees, Sonata, Symphonies, Harmonies P, Etudes are greater works. But yes I do think the general opinion of them is flawed.


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## jalex

larifari said:


> More than 80 comments about Franz Liszt and only two fleeting mentions of his Hungarian Rhapsodies.
> 
> Incredible snobbery or incredible stupidity.


I doubt Liszt would be happy if 130 years later we spent our time raving about the Hungarian Rhapsodies instead of his B Minor Sonata or other major works. They are well liked for being immensely enjoyable, sure, but that's all their purpose was - to wow the audiences with glitter at his virtuosic recitals. As regards actual musical merit there are works which there is much more to say about, and which are deserving of much more attention.


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## moody

larifari said:


> More than 80 comments about Franz Liszt and only two fleeting mentions of his Hungarian Rhapsodies.
> 
> Incredible snobbery or incredible stupidity.


 I don't think your reasons are correct. It's more that the rhapsodies are taken for granted because there are so many interesting goodies to unearth.
They are most peoples introduction to the Great Man, my aunt gave me a 78 record of Paderwewski playing THE rhapsody because she had attended his concerts in N.Y,
Here are some of the things to be found: Hungarian Rhapsody for violin and orchestra, first written for violin and piano it was orchestrated by Hubay the great violinist. It is based on the tune from his song Die Drei Zigeuner-(the Three Gypsies). The apparently recently discovered Concerto In the Hungarian Style, orch by Tchaikovsky.I don't know the latest on this. The Christmas Tree Suite for piano duet. The Fest Polonaise for four hands. The cycle Hungarian Historical Portraits, commemorating seven men who played prominent parts in 19th century Hungary. The Four Valse Oubliee. Fantasy On the Opera Szep Ilonka by Mosonyi. Halloh! Jagdchor and Steyrer from the opera Tony, by Ernst, Herzog zu Sachsen-Coburg-Gotha. The Concert Pathetique for two pianos. The Duo Sonata for violin and piano. Grand Duo Concertant for violin and piano.Malediction for piano and orchestra. Liszt's songs very listenable and some very good.
Do you see what I mean ?


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## Lisztian

Revisiting his Norma fantasy. Ugh. Such a beautiful, passionate, romantic work.


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## violadude

Lisztian said:


> Revisiting his Norma fantasy. Ugh. Such a beautiful, passionate, romantic work.


Thanks for posting Lisztian! I almost can't believe how many great Liszt pieces are overshadowed by his more popular works...


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## Lisztian

violadude said:


> Thanks for posting Lisztian! I almost can't believe how many great Liszt pieces are overshadowed by his more popular works...


You're welcome! I'm glad you liked it  One of those works that would be very easy to critisize if you're a non-Lisztian, like many of his opera fantasies are. I tend to love them, however, and some of them are some of my favourite piano works by Liszt.


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## Lisztian

Currently listening to one of my favourite works by Liszt, and not a very well known one. The Fantasy and Fugue on 'Ad Nos, Ad Salutarem Undam.' It was originally an organ work, which is probably the best version of it, but I like the faithful piano transcription by Busoni, as the piano is my favourite means of expression, and the organ as an instrument just doesn't move me much at this point. It has been said that this work is Liszt's greatest achievement of his Weimar years along with the Sonata and Faust Symphony. If we count the Busoni transcription as a solo piano work by Liszt, I think it is his second greatest solo piano work behind the Sonata. It is definately not easy listening - and is EXTREMELY virtuosic and probably not for everyone...but it has to be one of the most powerful works in the solo piano repertoire. If the virtuosity does not bother you, it is really a colossal work. There are no great recordings on youtube, so i'm going to have to stick to this one, which is good, but not great.


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## Lisztian

I posted this is another thread so I might as well post it here too...

Yesterday I was randomly looking at solo piano recitals on youtube and I found this one by Kissin. I actually went to his playing of the same program in September, and watching it again brought back good memories. It is an all Liszt recital (in Verbia, July 23 2011) including, in order:

Ricordanza, Etudes D'exécution Transcendante No.9.
Piano Sonata in B minor.
Funérailles (Harmonies poétiques et religieuses No. 7)
Les années de pèlerinage 1ère Année (La Suisse) No.6 - Vallée d'Obermann.
Les années de pèlerinage 2ème Année (L'Italie supplément) Venezia e Napoli.

Encores:

Liebesträume No. 3 in A-flat.
Soirées de Vienne, valse caprice for piano No. 6 (after Schubert D. 969 & 779).
Widmung (Liebeslied), transcription for piano (after Schumann)






Enjoy!


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## warnickel

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Franz-Liszt-Bronze-Copper-Plaque-Medallion-Composer-/230758630882


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## PetrB

JTech82 said:


> Then again this is coming from somebody who has a picture of Bach on their avatar. Such an intellectual pinhead you are.
> 
> But then again that's Bach for you, all intellect and no soul.


Dude, that Bach avatar is wearing shades....


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## Guest

PetrB said:


> Dude, that Bach avatar is wearing shades....


Why are you quoting JTech82 ?? he is long gone


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## Lisztian

Haven't posted here for awhile.

For those who haven't really made the acquaintance of Liszt's music, you could do worse than checking out the playlists on DesAbends channel. There's a lot of great Liszt on there (and other composers), both lesser known and better known works.

Piano Pieces.
Lieder.
Sacred Choral.
Via Crucis - with the piano. I prefer it with Organ, but the piano version certainly has its merits.
Faust and Dante Symphonies.

There are quite a few other Liszt pieces scattered throughout his channel that aren't in the playlists...I'll list them here, too.

Piano Works

Dumka.
Grande fantaisie sur des thèmes de l'opéra "Niobe."

Lieder

Il m'aimait tant. 
Es muss ein Wunderbares sein.

Orchestral.

Prometheus. 
Les Preludes. 
Orpheus.
Mazeppa.
Festklange.
La Notte.
Mazurka Fantaisie.

Choral.

Saint Cecile.
Sankt Christoph.

It's a rather hotchpotch selection overall, but it's a rather good introduction to the many different sides of Liszt.

Enjoy!


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## Lisztian

Great interview, and simply sublime playing...


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## Lisztian

Lisztian said:


> Revisiting his Norma fantasy. Ugh. Such a beautiful, passionate, romantic work.


Just read about Liszt's inspiration for this work. Supposedly he'd become so sick of the press incessantly linking his name with Thalberg's that he became determined to outdo him in his (Thalberg's) own style. Liszt sardonically described the fantasy as: "A fantasy all charged and supercharged with arpeggios, with octaves and those drab commonplaces that are supposed to be brilliant and extraordinary." Of course, the work is much more than just that. It is certainly written in a high romantic style but shows a great understanding of the opera and is a work of great pianistic genius. Busoni claimed that the B Major Section, 'Qual cor tradisti,' is one of the most ingenious and sublime passages ever written for the piano.


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## Romantic Geek

OK Liszt fanatics, I listened to the Liszt PC #1 as it was on Performance Today yesterday. It's a good piece. To oppose the above comment, I do not think they're groundbreaking works. As far as removing sonata form, hardly. It's still there in concept. I forget the technical term for it, but essentially it's a large structure sonata form spanning over the movements. Movements 1 is the Exposition, Movements 2/3 are the Development, and Movement 4 is the Recap. It's pretty clear, at least to me.

I still think the piano part was a little too flashy, but I'm starting to pinpoint what I don't like about it. I don't like the passages of descending fourths and ascending seconds in the flourishes. I'm not sure why...just the sound I guess. It's very Lisztian.

I thought the orchestration was pretty good. I liked the melodies (sans flourishes). Yet, I still get that imagine of virtuoso and not composer when I hear Liszt. As wonderful as the compositions basically is, the technicality of the piano part purely overpowers and diminishes what otherwise I would consider a good work. It's the same reason why I don't consider Paganini a particularly great composer either. 

Still to this day, I appreciate Liszt's later repertoire simply because it's devoid of much of that overt flashiness. 

As many know, I'm a huge fan of Edward MacDowell, who also was a piano virtuoso and a composer. He was also considered in the line of Liszt/Wagner rather than Brahms (which actually is pretty different from the rest of the American composers at the time). And while his works are overtly flashy at moments, they do not overpower the work as a whole. Maybe it's that struggle. Maybe it's because as a pianist, I know I will never achieve the technicality to play Liszt. Yet, ever since I've heard him, I've really had no desire to play him. I'm just not too sure. Maybe one day I'll figure it out, but I'm content without him at the moment.


----------



## Lisztian

Romantic Geek said:


> OK Liszt fanatics, I listened to the Liszt PC #1 as it was on Performance Today yesterday. It's a good piece. To oppose the above comment, I do not think they're groundbreaking works. As far as removing sonata form, hardly. It's still there in concept. I forget the technical term for it, but essentially it's a large structure sonata form spanning over the movements. Movements 1 is the Exposition, Movements 2/3 are the Development, and Movement 4 is the Recap. It's pretty clear, at least to me.
> 
> I still think the piano part was a little too flashy, but I'm starting to pinpoint what I don't like about it. I don't like the passages of descending fourths and ascending seconds in the flourishes. I'm not sure why...just the sound I guess. It's very Lisztian.
> 
> I thought the orchestration was pretty good. I liked the melodies (sans flourishes). Yet, I still get that imagine of virtuoso and not composer when I hear Liszt. As wonderful as the compositions basically is, the technicality of the piano part purely overpowers and diminishes what otherwise I would consider a good work. It's the same reason why I don't consider Paganini a particularly great composer either.
> 
> Still to this day, I appreciate Liszt's later repertoire simply because it's devoid of much of that overt flashiness.
> 
> As many know, I'm a huge fan of Edward MacDowell, who also was a piano virtuoso and a composer. He was also considered in the line of Liszt/Wagner rather than Brahms (which actually is pretty different from the rest of the American composers at the time). And while his works are overtly flashy at moments, they do not overpower the work as a whole. Maybe it's that struggle. Maybe it's because as a pianist, I know I will never achieve the technicality to play Liszt. Yet, ever since I've heard him, I've really had no desire to play him. I'm just not too sure. Maybe one day I'll figure it out, but I'm content without him at the moment.


Thanks for the fair impressions. I am in no place to comment about the innovativeness of this work as i'm no expert in music theory, and I also haven't looked into the piece that much.

But, about the actual music. I pretty much second what you send about the work although I think the flourishes can certainly be fun. Liszt wrote down his opinions on what he thought a concerto should be at one point. He basically said it should be direct, effective, and brilliant. He did not take the concerto as seriously as he did a symphony, string quartet or piano sonata. This first concerto really shows what he meant by that. As Stephen Hough said, it is superficiality of the best kind. It is to be taken seriously, but it is also supposed to be a bit of fun. It is what it is: a highly effective, but not fully serious work.

The thing I disagreed with in what you said though, despite it being an honest testament, is concluding that in Liszt, while his music can be good, the flashiness tends to prevail - after listening to his first piano concerto. I think where it is perhaps true in the first PC, it isn't in most of his works from the 50s on that were written for a fully musical purpose. I wonder, which other works by Liszt give you this impression being overtly flashy, even if they are still enjoyable?


----------



## Romantic Geek

Lisztian said:


> Thanks for the fair impressions. I am in no place to comment about the innovativeness of this work as i'm no expert in music theory, and I also haven't looked into the piece that much.
> 
> But, about the actual music. I pretty much second what you send about the work although I think the flourishes can certainly be fun. Liszt wrote down his opinions on what he thought a concerto should be at one point. He basically said it should be direct, effective, and brilliant. He did not take the concerto as seriously as he did a symphony, string quartet or piano sonata. This first concerto really shows what he meant by that. As Stephen Hough said, it is superficiality of the best kind. It is to be taken seriously, but it is also supposed to be a bit of fun. It is what it is: a highly effective, but not fully serious work.
> 
> The thing I disagreed with in what you said though, despite it being an honest testament, is concluding that in Liszt, while his music can be good, the flashiness tends to prevail - after listening to his first piano concerto. I think where it is perhaps true in the first PC, it isn't in most of his works from the 50s on that were written for a fully musical purpose. I wonder, which other works by Liszt give you this impression being overtly flashy, even if they are still enjoyable?


I mean, most of the piano works (at least the early to mid ones) that I've heard. I can't remember many of their names because most of them I heard as performances within my studio when in college. One of the students just loved Liszt and would play anything with a multitude of notes obscuring the melody. For one specific instance though, he rewriting of Schubert's Wanderer Fantasy shows to me how a) he didn't understand the Wanderer Fantasy and b) bastardized it (yes, sorry for the strong language, but this is how I feel) with inappropriate flourishes beyond those that Schubert did on his own.

I'd say I'm more of a fan of Liszt's organ works and orchestral works, though I don't hold his orchestral works in the esteem of the other great orchestrators in the Romantic era. I need to undoubtedly listen to more Liszt, but it probably will be because it's on a program and not for me actively searching for more of his music.


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## Vaneyes

Time for a public service announcement. "Hold the mustard!" I've had my share of struggles with Liszt PCs 1 & 2, and other works of his...usually due to extra helpings of virtuosity by Liszt wannabes. They should get it through their heads that the hot-dogging should be left to the memory of Liszt, who was a supreme showman (and stud-muffin), as well as a great composer. The Buffalo Bill of concertising, if you will.

Keep listening, if you require other interps. They do exist.


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## Lisztian

Romantic Geek said:


> I mean, most of the piano works (at least the early to mid ones) that I've heard. I can't remember many of their names because most of them I heard as performances within my studio when in college. One of the students just loved Liszt and would play anything with a multitude of notes obscuring the melody. For one specific instance though, he rewriting of Schubert's Wanderer Fantasy shows to me how a) he didn't understand the Wanderer Fantasy and b) bastardized it (yes, sorry for the strong language, but this is how I feel) with inappropriate flourishes beyond those that Schubert did on his own.
> 
> I'd say I'm more of a fan of Liszt's organ works and orchestral works, though I don't hold his orchestral works in the esteem of the other great orchestrators in the Romantic era. I need to undoubtedly listen to more Liszt, but it probably will be because it's on a program and not for me actively searching for more of his music.


What do you think of this middle period piece?


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## Webernite

I've said mean things about Liszt in the past, but I like him more now, even though he's still not a favorite. The _Don Juan_ and _Norma_ fantasies are a lot of fun. I also like _La Leggierezza_, an underrated piece.


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## DeepR

Horowitz & Liszt


















How can anyone not like Liszt after this?

I would already worship Liszt if Au Bord D'une Source was his only composition.


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## Lisztian

DeepR said:


> I would already worship Liszt if Au Bord D'une Source was his only composition.


One of his finest quasi-impressionist pieces, only behind the Legendes (especially the first) and Les Jex d'eaux a'la Villa d'este.


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## Romantic Geek

Lisztian said:


> What do you think of this middle period piece?


Best way I can describe this piece is it's like Wagner and Chopin had a baby and this is the product. I've definitely heard this work several times before. I like parts of it (sounds very much like Amy Beach at moments) but the parts that sound like Chopin pianistically are not my favorite. I'm not a huge fan of Chopin in general. I like his music generally but very few of his works are on my short list of greatest compositions.

Overall, it's a nice work. More like what I'm interested in.


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## Lisztian

Romantic Geek said:


> short list of greatest compositions.


Might I ask which solo piano pieces are on this short list?


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## Romantic Geek

Lisztian said:


> Might I ask which solo piano pieces are on this short list?


It's one that I don't think about too often when it comes to specifics, but a few off the top of my head:

Brahms Op. 118
Beethoven Op. 53
Schubert D. 960


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## Lisztian

Great article on Liszt.

http://publicdomainreview.org/2011/10/17/what-makes-franz-liszt-still-important/


----------



## millionrainbows

A very fiery performance of selected Transcendental Etudes. I also like this album because it juxtaposes old with new.

The Horowitz clips were interesting. The Japanese seem to really love him.

Liszt' piano music is a good vehicle for virtuosic showcasing. In this sense, it is music which appeals to the senses. It is very visceral music with no pretensions.


----------



## Nadia

It is very interesting how his compositional style drastically changed with years. From the early virtuoso bombastic pieces filled with raging octaves, to his mid fase exploring te orchestra and his religious fase, and the late coquetting with atonality and going away from romantism.
And even more interesting is that I like all his fases equally.
There is something special in even the emptiest paraphrases, like a watermark on the piece, like a sign that hasn't changed untill his death. I don't know what it is.


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## jani

Funny fact Franz Listz was born 22th of october and so was i!


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## Lisztian

Nadia said:


> It is very interesting how his compositional style drastically changed with years. From the early virtuoso bombastic pieces filled with raging octaves, to his mid fase exploring te orchestra and his religious fase, and the late coquetting with atonality and going away from romantism.
> And even more interesting is that I like all his fases equally.
> There is something special in even the emptiest paraphrases, like a watermark on the piece, like a sign that hasn't changed untill his death. I don't know what it is.


I think the thing that shines through all his music, from the least to most inspired, is a remarkable spirit and personality.


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## Nadia

I never heard a better explination of the dazzling phenomenon.


----------



## Mesa

I think either Liszt or God told me in a dream this is what he envisioned when he wrote Hungarian Rhapsody Number 2:
A funeral service, the burning of the coffin, everyone attending the bar and crying a bit, people getting merrier, a slight cockney knees up occurring, the dashing young architect dances with the liberated widow, acts of passion occur, the young man wakes up with a thunderous migraine and a gut laden with guilt, credits roll.

Screenplay by Richard Curtis, of course.

It happened, honest!


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## Lisztian

Astonishing work. One of the darkest, most tragic, and simply devastating pieces of the 19th century and perhaps my favourite symphonic poem by Liszt - unfortunately it's rarely heard.


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## belfastboy

Lisztian said:


> Astonishing work. One of the darkest, most tragic, and simply devastating pieces of the 19th century and perhaps my favourite symphonic poem by Liszt - unfortunately it's rarely heard.


Thank you for posting this - I love it.....the sort of music I like! Dark I know...but full of emotion!


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## Sonata

what's your take on the Liszt Collection boxed set? A worthwhile investment, or do you recommend other individual recordings?


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## Lisztian

Sonata said:


> what's your take on the Liszt Collection boxed set? A worthwhile investment, or do you recommend other individual recordings?


I don't have it but it seems worthwhile to me. It is missing quite a bit of Liszt's better music and some of the recordings are questionable, but overall it would be a good collection for getting started with Liszt's music (better than the other box sets released last year) and it's a great bargain!


----------



## Sonata

Yeah, it's sitting around third or fourth on my "boxed set wishlist" right now (After Beethoven piano sonatas, a lieder set, and Strauss Orchestral works). I'm definitely new to his music, but definitely dig solo piano, of which I know Liszt has plenty! I'll have to ask Lenfer how she likes it so far, I know she purchased the set a couple weeks ago.


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## Lisztian

Sonata said:


> Yeah, it's sitting around third or fourth on my "boxed set wishlist" right now (After Beethoven piano sonatas, a lieder set, and Strauss Orchestral works). I'm definitely new to his music, but definitely dig solo piano, of which I know Liszt has plenty! I'll have to ask Lenfer how she likes it so far, I know she purchased the set a couple weeks ago.


The solo piano section of the collection looks very good. The Années de pèlerinage, Piano Sonata, Consolations, Legendes, Liebestraume, the (limited selection of) late works, and the Schubert transcriptions are given first rate performances while the Etudes and Hungarian Rhapsodies in general look questionable. The orchestral performances are uneven but never bad, and some are very good and the piano/orchestra works are given good performances. As for the organ, lieder and choral works i'm no connoisseur as far as performances go but the lieder, especially, with Barenboim and Dietrich Fischer-Dieskau looks promising!


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## Novelette

I'm sure we're tired of me saying it, but I adore Leslie Howard's performance of Liszt's Années de Pèlerinage, Deuxième Année, Italie, S 161 - 7. Après Une Lecture du Dante.

Just another of those ethereally beautiful works at which Liszt excelled!


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## Lisztian

Novelette said:


> I'm sure we're tired of me saying it, but I adore Leslie Howard's performance of Liszt's Années de Pèlerinage, Deuxième Année, Italie, S 161 - 7. Après Une Lecture du Dante.
> 
> Just another of those ethereally beautiful works at which Liszt excelled!


This is a work I used to consider quite uneven and flawed, but the more I listen to it the more I just love it. Given a good performance it's just breathtaking and one of the most beautiful and sublime piano works I can think of -I would currently place it, along with the Variations on Weinen, Klagen, Sorgen, Zagen, as being second among Liszt's piano works behind the B Minor- and a good performance also makes one realise they aren't flaws after all. My favourite recording is by Arrau, and it was the one that first made me really appreciate this work as I do now.

Not only that, but the entire Deuxième Année is simply among my favourite works by anyone. Simply wonderful music throughout, of great originality.


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## Ukko

I became enchanted with the Années through the 'offices' of Lazar Berman's set on LPs.

Returning to this thread has caused me to remember a question - one you should be asked, _Listian_. I enjoy Roberto Szidon's recordings of the Hungarian Rhapsodies, but don't recall seeing recordings by him of other Liszt works; do you know of them?


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## moody

Hilltroll72 said:


> I became enchanted with the Années through the 'offices' of Lazar Berman's set on LPs.
> 
> Returning to this thread has caused me to remember a question - one you should be asked, _Listian_. I enjoy Roberto Szidon's recordings of the Hungarian Rhapsodies, but don't recall seeing recordings by him of other Liszt works; do you know of them?


You'll be lucky---he's in love and hasn't been around for a while.
I can't find much of Szidons and I have nothing.


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## Lisztian

Hilltroll72 said:


> I became enchanted with the Années through the 'offices' of Lazar Berman's set on LPs.
> 
> Returning to this thread has caused me to remember a question - one you should be asked, _Listian_. I enjoy Roberto Szidon's recordings of the Hungarian Rhapsodies, but don't recall seeing recordings by him of other Liszt works; do you know of them?


I've never heard of them, and just looked around the internet for awhile and couldn't find anything about them. It seems for some reason he only recorded the Rhapsodies.


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## Novelette

Lisztian said:


> This is a work I used to consider quite uneven and flawed, but the more I listen to it the more I just love it. Given a good performance it's just breathtaking and one of the most beautiful and sublime piano works I can think of -I would currently place it, along with the Variations on Weinen, Klagen, Sorgen, Zagen, as being second among Liszt's piano works behind the B Minor- and a good performance also makes one realise they aren't flaws after all. My favourite recording is by Arrau, and it was the one that first made me really appreciate this work as I do now.
> 
> Not only that, but the entire Deuxième Année is simply among my favourite works by anyone. Simply wonderful music throughout, of great originality.


It took me quite a long while to get into Liszt's less immediately available works. There's just so much, and to this day, there are works that I have avoided, at least until I can give them a proper listen.

The Italie Année was one such bloc of works that I consistently avoided. For some reason, I had memories of the Petrarch Sonnet movements being extraordinarily dull and undistinguished. Thank goodness I listened to them again and realize what gems they really are. The Lecture movement would be an especially joyful work to play, but some of the leaps are extreme, and my hands aren't so large.


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## moody

Lisztian said:


> I've never heard of them, and just looked around the internet for awhile and couldn't find anything about them. It seems for some reason he only recorded the Rhapsodies.


There he is and now you know--he popped up like a genie from a bottle !!


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## Volve

What do you guys think of this performance?


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## Lisztian

There were a couple people in the Liszt/Schumann thread that didn't have much of Liszt's music, and I posted a list of my favourite pieces...which got me thinking which CD's I, personally (very subjective), would recommend to the Liszt dilettante, aiming for the best performances and doing my best to keep price in mind. Here's what I came up with:


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## Lisztian

Then (next stage, if you will, other, different recordings of previously listed works, as well as some great ones of new ones):


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## Lisztian

Next:









^ OR Berman on DG (or both).


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## Lisztian




----------



## Lisztian

Last one.














































I have to say, though, that there are many works I have skipped out of ignorance or indecision of what are the better recordings. These include the Lieder, the Organ Works, chamber music, the Concerto Pathetique, the Gran Mass, Via Crucis, The Legend of St Elisabeth and many of the other choral works, and more...i'm also sure I forgot some CD's. I will update this thread when I have preferred recordings for these works. Also, I didn't include Howard (except two at the end) because of the price, but of course the complete edition is a great one to have.


----------



## Novelette

Lisztian, this is a treasure trove! Thank you!


----------



## Weston

Can anyone tell me if the Transcendental Etudes naming and numbering conventions have gotten changed over the years, or if they change from one culture to the next, or one recording to the next? My set is by Michele Campanella. I have no idea where I got them, but judging from the date stamp they are from an old mp3 "service" eMusic. The names and numbers seem out of whack compared to other Liszt lists. Are they not set in stone?

This is how they are described in my set:

No. 1 in Am
No. 2 in F, "Landscape"
No. 3 in Dm, "Mazeppa"
No. 4 in Cm, "Wild Hunt"
No. 5 in C, "Preludio Presto"
No. 6 in Bb, "Will-o-the-Wisps"
No. 7 in Gm, "Vision"
No. 8 in Eb, "Heroic"
No. 9 in Ab, "Rememberance"
No. 10 in Fm
No. 11 in Db, "Evening Harmonies"
No. 12 in Bbm, " A Blizzard"

Please forgive my guitar chord style abbreviations for minor keys.


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## Guest

Nothing wrong in your key descriptions perfectly legit.


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## Lisztian

Weston said:


> Can anyone tell me if the Transcendental Etudes naming and numbering conventions have gotten changed over the years, or if they change from one culture to the next, or one recording to the next? My set is by Michele Campanella. I have no idea where I got them, but judging from the date stamp they are from an old mp3 "service" eMusic. The names and numbers seem out of whack compared to other Liszt lists. Are they not set in stone?
> 
> This is how they are described in my set:
> 
> No. 1 in Am
> No. 2 in F, "Landscape"
> No. 3 in Dm, "Mazeppa"
> No. 4 in Cm, "Wild Hunt"
> No. 5 in C, "Preludio Presto"
> No. 6 in Bb, "Will-o-the-Wisps"
> No. 7 in Gm, "Vision"
> No. 8 in Eb, "Heroic"
> No. 9 in Ab, "Rememberance"
> No. 10 in Fm
> No. 11 in Db, "Evening Harmonies"
> No. 12 in Bbm, " A Blizzard"
> 
> Please forgive my guitar chord style abbreviations for minor keys.


They are set in stone, and I'm not aware of the order having been change since publication. Your list is not in the proper order. The right one is:

No. 1 in C, "Preludio Presto" (was 5 on your list).
No. 2 in Am
No. 3 in F, "Landscape."
No. 4 in Dm, "Mazeppa."
No. 5 in Bb, "Will-o-the-Wisps."
No. 6 in Gm, "Vision."
No. 7 in Eb, "Heroic."
No. 8 in Cm, "Wild Hunt." (was 4 on yours).
No. 9 in Ab, "Rememberance."
No. 10 in Fm
No. 11 in Db, "Evening Harmonies."
No. 12 in Bbm, " A Blizzard" (I believe this is actually translated _snow storm_).

Hope that helps!


----------



## Weston

Lisztian said:


> They are set in stone, and I'm not aware of the order having been change since publication. Your list is not in the proper order. The right one is:
> 
> No. 1 in C, "Preludio Presto" (was 5 on your list).
> No. 2 in Am
> No. 3 in F, "Landscape."
> No. 4 in Dm, "Mazeppa."
> No. 5 in Bb, "Will-o-the-Wisps."
> No. 6 in Gm, "Vision."
> No. 7 in Eb, "Heroic."
> No. 8 in Cm, "Wild Hunt." (was 4 on yours).
> No. 9 in Ab, "Rememberance."
> No. 10 in Fm
> No. 11 in Db, "Evening Harmonies."
> No. 12 in Bbm, " A Blizzard" (I believe this is actually translated _snow storm_).
> 
> Hope that helps!


It does. Thanks!

Maybe these were recorded for LP and the order had to be rearranged to fit on the sides. Then eMusic just used the track numbers instead of the piece numbers. Grrrrr.


----------



## Vaneyes

Faust Symphony is honored by you-know-who.

http://www.theguardian.com/music/to...mphony-guide-liszt-faust-symphony-tom-service


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## Naccio

His douze etudes for piano sound like an orchestra, truly furious, vivid and uplifting, delicate yet strong and wild. Also the zmephisto waltzes are haunting and strangely alluring, maybe because I'm into the esoterics of classical music but truly a genius, though not with the variations of method and style of other geniuses.


----------



## HaydnBearstheClock

Been listening to Bolet's recording of a selection of his works - very impressed with Liszt's originality and the wealth of ideas in his works. He certainly had a very powerful musical imagination.


----------



## mstar

HaydnBearstheClock said:


> Been listening to Bolet's recording of a selection of his works - very impressed with Liszt's originality and the wealth of ideas in his works. He certainly had a very powerful musical imagination.


Bolet and Cziffra have become my favorite pianists to perform Liszt, especially when it comes to Bolet's interpretation of Transcendental Etude No. 10. 
As for me, I took a musical break from listening to any Liszt, but now, my long list of Liszt sitting in my music folder is too tempting to not listen to anymore...


----------



## deprofundis

I heard he was influencial for composer like *Arnold Schoenberg*, so it trigger my mind to know more.

But what is best work, i heard he is a piano player i preffer organ for a reason so what would be my best entry in Liszt orchestral work or organ work.What should i pick up??

I heard Liszt was an austro-hungarian so maybe he most have inspired *Bela Bartók *too, hypotetical?

:tiphat:


----------



## joen_cph

Organ: The Ad Nos fantasia & fugue
Orchestra: Les Preludes, Faust Symphony, Dante Symphony, Orpheus, Mazeppa, concertante works with piano
Orchestral & Vocal: Christus Oratorio
Choral: Via Crucis, Chor der Engel aus Faust


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## Chordalrock

I suspect what may have inspired the modernists were his odd late pieces due to their kind of atonal sound world. I have to say I find his early and middle period works a lot more interesting musically, possibly because "atonal" and "odd" have been done far better by Bartok and others. There's always a danger in being the first, the danger being that you don't have a clear standard against which to measure your level of success. So I think late Liszt ended up being rather weak because he thought anything new sounding was cool when it was just new sounding to him and ultimately not that interesting.

His most important organ works were from his middle period. Apparently there were only two important ones, although they're quite substantial:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franz_Liszt#Organ_music


----------



## Mahlerian

Chordalrock said:


> I suspect what may have inspired the modernists were his odd late pieces due to their kind of atonal sound world. I have to say I find his early and middle period works a lot more interesting musically, possibly because "atonal" and "odd" have been done far better by Bartok and others. *There's always a danger in being the first*, the danger being that you don't have a clear standard against which to measure your level of success.


There is? Why don't you have a "clear standard"? Why can't you simply use coherence and musical force as your criteria?


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## Mandryka

deprofundis said:


> I heard he was influencial for composer like *Arnold Schoenberg*, so it trigger my mind to know more.
> 
> But what is best work, i heard he is a piano player i preffer organ for a reason so what would be my best entry in Liszt orchestral work or organ work.What should i pick up??
> 
> I heard Liszt was an austro-hungarian so maybe he most have inspired *Bela Bartók *too, hypotetical?
> 
> :tiphat:


Check out Daniel Chorzempa and Hans-Jurgen Kaiser.

There's a whole world of transcriptions he made for organ, both of his own piano and symphonic work and of other people's. I haven't explored this music and I hope someone who has will post.

Other good Liszt to explore if you want to avoid piano is the late choral music -- the Requiem and Via Crucis. The songs are also outstanding, Let me know if this sounds like your sort of thing and I'll mention some performances.

I don't like his orchestral music so I can't comment.


----------



## Mandryka

I'm going to unrecommend Hans-Jürgen Kaiser's Liszt recording, which I played again last night and this morning. I think I had been so impressed before because of the sound quality, but now it seems overbearing and melodramatic. 

That leaves a problem. Of the ones I've heard the one who is streets ahead of the rest in making the music meaningful is Daniel Chorzempa, but apart from one piece (Weineen Klagen Sorgen Sagen) it's only on LP. Liszt is like that, even in piano music. It's really hard to find performances which make it into something worth hearing as opposed to an effusion of browbeating romantic bombast. 

Anyway your taste may differ from mine.


----------



## Xaltotun

A few days ago I was listening to _Die Legende von der heiligen Elisabeth_ conducted by Janos Ferencsik and suddenly, tears started flowing from my eyes. This is true poetry in music. Liszt's _Lohengrin_, certainly, if _Christus_ is _Parsifal._

Recently I also listened to the _Requiem_ and I was spooked, it is a frightening piece! _Via Crucis_, on the other hand, sounds to my ears... cruel! Purposefully, coldly, determinedly cruel. "JESUS FALLT ZUM DRITTEN MAL". Unflinchingly meeting fate, with no fear and no excitement, but with no choice to turn away, eyelids paralyzed permanently open. _All this must pass, there is no alternative._ I like it very much.


----------



## violadude

Liszt's output is chalk full of so many little known oddities.

Here's one I found the today that might be of interest to some, his Czardas Macabre, written 4 years before death.






Those parallel fifths man...


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## HaydnBearstheClock

Thanks for the link, VD. Pretty slick stuff. Some of this sounds like 21st-century, modern classical. Liszt was definitely a great experimenter.


----------



## JACE

Is there a good single-volume Liszt biography that anyone can recommend?

I've seen the multi-volume Alan Walker bio, but I'd like to begin with something a bit less daunting.


----------



## Xaltotun

Here's a Liszt recording that keeps moving me to tears.









And this one's a classic:


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## Vaneyes

Xaltotun said:


> Here's a Liszt recording that keeps moving me to tears.
> 
> View attachment 58367


My eyes are tearing trying to read the cover.


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## Lisztian

Vaneyes said:


> My eyes are tearing trying to read the cover.


The Legend of Saint Elisabeth: Janos Ferencsik.


----------



## Lisztian

violadude said:


> Liszt's output is chalk full of so many little known oddities.
> 
> Here's one I found the today that might be of interest to some, his Czardas Macabre, written 4 years before death.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Those parallel fifths man...


If you like this one, listen to his 2nd and 3rd Mephisto Waltzes: written at around the same time in similar macabre style, with comparably radical innovation (especially the third, which 20th century composer and Liszt scholar considered one of Liszt's finest achievements, and Alan Walker (distinguished Liszt biographer) stated that there is nothing in the chord-structures from Third Mephisto Waltz that Schoenberg was not to introduce in his First Chamber Symphony).

2: 




3:


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## soundoftritones

You, sir, are wonderful beyond words.


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## HaydnBearstheClock

His Hungarian Rhapsodies are excellent - currently enjoying Michele Campanella's recording.


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## deprofundis

i bought Liszt's dante symphony including his dante sonata, quite Moody enjoyable, im not use to quiet piano music but this recording deliver, it the naxos ''Music for two pianos''.Yep it mellow but the atmosphere is etherical.Now maybe its just me or
on these dante theme pianos music we can hear post-bartok element, like bartok pianos music.


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## Guest

The 21st century needs a re-incarnation of Liszt - so he can get to work transcribing the masterworks that Liszt couldn't live to transcribe


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## elgar's ghost

arcaneholocaust said:


> The 21st century needs a re-incarnation of Liszt - so he can get to work transcribing the masterworks that Liszt couldn't live to transcribe


Interesting - did you have any particular works in mind?


----------



## Celesta

I discovered Liszt's 123 Sonetto del Petrarca from "Les Annees de Pelerinage" in my favorite Greta Garbo silent film, "A Woman of Affairs", arranged by the wonderful composer/conductor Carl Davis. It was perfect for the sad, doomed romance of Garbo and her co-star/lover John Gilbert. A beautiful work and one of the most profound Liszt penned, IMO.

The B Minor Sonata is another favorite. I know Horowitz's 1977 recording is controversial. Granted, it's loud with a lot of "banging". But Horowitz's demonic intensity is gripping to me, not to mention he was a vibrant 73 years old at the time. He somehow makes the keyboard sound like an orchestra in the B Minor and I have no idea how he does it! It's a very "in your face" interpretation and I only play it when the mood strikes me. But I love it all the same.

I've yet to find a B Minor that makes me completely happy. I tried the Arrau but thought it lacked passion. I rather like the Bolet. Are there other recordings I should seek out?


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## Heliogabo

Pogorelich and Brendel (Decca) in this sonata are worth exploring


----------



## Albert7

Liszt month is going exceptionally well for me.


----------



## Xaltotun

Celesta said:


> I discovered Liszt's 123 Sonetto del Petrarca from "Les Annees de Pelerinage" in my favorite Greta Garbo silent film, "A Woman of Affairs", arranged by the wonderful composer/conductor Carl Davis. It was perfect for the sad, doomed romance of Garbo and her co-star/lover John Gilbert. A beautiful work and one of the most profound Liszt penned, IMO.
> 
> The B Minor Sonata is another favorite. I know Horowitz's 1977 recording is controversial. Granted, it's loud with a lot of "banging". But Horowitz's demonic intensity is gripping to me, not to mention he was a vibrant 73 years old at the time. He somehow makes the keyboard sound like an orchestra in the B Minor and I have no idea how he does it! It's a very "in your face" interpretation and I only play it when the mood strikes me. But I love it all the same.
> 
> I've yet to find a B Minor that makes me completely happy. I tried the Arrau but thought it lacked passion. I rather like the Bolet. Are there other recordings I should seek out?


You like Liszt and have an Ingres painting as an avatar? Wow, I quite like you! 
My new Liszt findings include his cantatas "Cantico del Sol di San Francesco d'Assisi" and "Die Glocken des Strassburger Munsters". Wagner lovers, listen to the beginning of the later work and be surprised!


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## Albert7

This month I get to present Liszt transcriptions this month to my music society then next month will be his original compositions.


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## regenmusic

There is a two volume collection of letters better Liszt and Wagner. I was reading
some of volume one today and Wagner was telling Liszt how much he liked a work of Liszt's.


----------



## Albert7

Diana Damrau's Liszt lieder album = A1 sauce... you guys must hear her!


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## Heliogabo

Albert7 said:


> Diana Damrau's Liszt lieder album = A1 sauce... you guys must hear her!


Check out Mitsuko Shirai's Liszt lieder albums as well. Terrific!


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## Albert7

Heliogabo said:


> Check out Mitsuko Shirai's Liszt lieder albums as well. Terrific!


Indeed, thanks for the heads up for sure. I will look for that disc as well.


----------



## Dustin

It's funny how our minds can sometimes allow us to go months and months or even years without listening to a certain composer and almost forgetting the magic that can be found in their music. Listening to Liszt's Annees de Pelerinage the last couple days and I'm spellbound by it. If you asked me 3 days ago my impression of Liszt, I might have given a "meh", but now I've done a 180. I guess it's a lesson to not get stuck in listening ruts or trust the criticizing mind that humans seem to wield too often.


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## Chopiniana93

Liszt is my second favourite piano composer...I fell in love with his _Sospiro_ (Three Concert Etudes, no.3) while watching the movie _Shine_. Then I decided to listen to other pieces and I discovered him as a brilliant composer whose music ever don't bore me. I bought also a biography, but I haven't time to read it yet...I have to find the time, but I already know a lot about his life.
I definitely *love *:

-his *First Piano Concerto*
-*Sonata in B Minor*, HIS masterpiece IMO
- *Annèes de Pelegrinage: Italie, Suisse* (particularly Au bord d'une sorce, Les cloches de Geneve, Il Penseroso and the sublime Apres une lecture de Dante)
- *Etudes d'execution trascendentale* (particularly Paysage, Feux follets, Harmonies du soir, Chasse-neige)
-*Grandes Etudes de Paganini* (no. 5 and 6)
-*Dante's Symphony*, one of his beautiful masterpieces
-*Deux Legendes*, Saint Francois de Paule marchant sur les flots
-*Romance oublieè*
-*Schlaflos! Frage und Antwort*, one of his last pieces

His music is really evocative, romantic and brilliantly composed. Its music has also variety, he can be powerful at one time, and tormenting at another time, but he never loose his magic.


----------



## Antony

May I jump into your conversation on Liszt?
A big part of Liszt's works is transcriptions. I would add the transcriptions of Liszt on operas, lieder, paraphrases, Reminiscences. The transcriptions on Schubert's lieder are very interesting. It's like the chief cook Schubert invented the main dishes (melodies), then Liszt took the dishes, add spices, salt, pepper, put his decoration..then serve. 
And Just finished the transcriptions of Mendelssohn's Songs without words.


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## Aggelos

These are very interesting for those who are interested in Liszt's orchestral output









http://www.capriccio.at/franz-liszt-orchestral-pieces
http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2005/Aug05/liszt_masterpieces_49450.htm
http://www.allmusic.com/album/release/liszt-dante-symphonie-mr0002728158









http://www.allmusic.com/album/relea...del-sol-di-san-francesco-dassisi-mr0002113585
http://www.gerd-albrecht.com/franz-liszt-sonnenhymnus-des-hl-franziskus-franziskus-legenden/









http://classicalsource.com/db_control/db_cd_review.php?id=9019
http://www.hyperion-records.co.uk/dc.asp?dc=D_CDA67856
http://audaud.com/2011/04/liszt-from-the-cradle-to-the-grave-s107-three-funeral-odes-s112-two-episodes-from-lenau%E2%80%99s-faust-s110-bbc-scottish-sym-orchestra-glasgow-singersilan-volkov-hyperion/
http://www.classical-music.com/review/liszt-funeral-odes









http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2002/Dec02/Liszt_SymphonicPoems.htm


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## BlackKeys

Happy 204th birthday Liszt!


----------



## Abraham Lincoln

I was late to his birthday party. ;_; Stupid cold.


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## Stavrogin

I have a question for anyone who can reply.

What is Liszt's actual birth name: *Franz* or *Ferencz*?

Most sources report both versions, with the former as the first.
However, he was born in a town which was part of the Hungarian kingdom at the time (despite being in Austria today) from a Hungarian family. Which makes me wonder if his actual name was Ferenc (or as Wiki reports, Ferencz).

What did his parents call him? What is the record in the official list (pun intended) of the County?

Does anyone have reliable and certain sources on this?


----------



## Xaltotun

Stavrogin said:


> I have a question for anyone who can reply.
> 
> What is Liszt's actual birth name: *Franz* or *Ferencz*?
> 
> Most sources report both versions, with the former as the first.
> However, he was born in a town which was part of the Hungarian kingdom at the time (despite being in Austria today) from a Hungarian family. Which makes me wonder if his actual name was Ferenc (or as Wiki reports, Ferencz).
> 
> What did his parents call him? What is the record in the official list (pun intended) of the County?
> 
> Does anyone have reliable and certain sources on this?


It might not be a simple case of a "right name" vs. a "translation". For example, in Finland, 19th century, people were often given Swedish names (such as "Anders"), but those were never used, except in church sacraments and the final gravestone. In everyday parlance, Finnish version of the name (such as "Antti") was used. But which was the "right" name, then? I guess both were. Maybe people thought in a more platonic way back then, so that all translations were equally right, reflections of the true meaning of the name.


----------



## Stavrogin

Interesting point.
My take is that the "right" name (for, say, Wikipedia purposes) is one that's written down "somewhere" (local registers or - alternatively - church) at birth.


----------



## mstar

Stavrogin said:


> I have a question for anyone who can reply.
> 
> What is Liszt's actual birth name: *Franz* or *Ferencz*?
> 
> Most sources report both versions, with the former as the first.
> However, he was born in a town which was part of the Hungarian kingdom at the time (despite being in Austria today) from a Hungarian family. Which makes me wonder if his actual name was Ferenc (or as Wiki reports, Ferencz).
> 
> What did his parents call him? What is the record in the official list (pun intended) of the County?
> 
> Does anyone have reliable and certain sources on this?


I don't remember the source, but I've heard that his birth name was Ferenc and he changed it to Franz when he got older. 
There might be something on his Wikipedia page - I find it to be pretty reliable for composer research.


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## hammeredklavier

Franz Liszt ( 22 October 1811 – 31 July 1886 )


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## perempe

Now I know why will be 'Christus - Part 1: Christmas Oratorio - Introduction' performed before Tchaikovsky's Serenade for Strings today.


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## SanAntone

Stavrogin said:


> I have a question for anyone who can reply.
> 
> What is Liszt's actual birth name: *Franz* or *Ferencz*?
> 
> Most sources report both versions, with the former as the first.
> However, he was born in a town which was part of the Hungarian kingdom at the time (despite being in Austria today) from a Hungarian family. Which makes me wonder if his actual name was Ferenc (or as Wiki reports, Ferencz).
> 
> What did his parents call him? What is the record in the official list (pun intended) of the County?
> 
> Does anyone have reliable and certain sources on this?


Liszt was born in what is today Hungary, but lived most of most his life in Germany, spent some time in France and Italy. He changed changed his name as a consequence. I am not sure if he spoke Hungarian.


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## lextune

Liszt did not learn Hungarian. That said, he certainly thought of himself as Hungarian...

"There's no doubt Liszt thought of himself as Hungarian. At least, he described himself as such in front of Hungarian audiences. Embarrassingly, he had to do it in French.

"Je suis hongrois," he famously told fans at his first concert in Pest, because he had never learned the language of the Magyars. His native tongue was German, the language of his parents, but he preferred to speak and write in French."


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## perempe

Fun fact: liszt means flour in Hungarian.


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## hammeredklavier

*Franz Liszt (22 October 1811 - 31 July 1886)*


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## 96 Keys

I love his piano music. Yes, it is often very difficult and sometimes bombastic, but it's still rewarding to play. Maybe not as much as late Beethoven, but it's still rewarding.


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## Rogerx

1811 Franz Liszt, Hungarian romantic composer.

For his birthday yesterday


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## szabomd

Liszt was born in Doborján/Raiding in 1811 in Hungary, but today the town is in Austria.


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## Guest

szabomd said:


> Liszt was born in Doborján/Raiding in 1811 in Hungary, but today the town is in Austria.


Spouse and myself were living in Vienna throughout 2011 and this was Liszt's anniversary year; lots of recitals all over Austria but what caught our attention was all the flag banners around the complete Ringstrasse with this picture of Liszt - wearing sunglasses and looking very cool!!










Spouse read Walker's three-volume tomes/biography of Liszt - complete with all footnotes- as it was in English and he was in Vienna with a music-nut. He now loves Liszt and grew to very deeply admire the man and his values; the sure sign of an excellent musical biography which is sympathetic to the subject as well as well researched and readable. Neither of us will forget Liszt's huge efforts to have the works of composers such as Schumann put before the public. In her turn, Clara and friend Brahms were both scathing about Liszt and contemptuous of his music and playing. Did not reflect well on the aforementioned, IMO!! And Liszt was responsible for the placement of Beethoven's statue in Bonn, having agitated to have it put there and paying for it himself.


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## Rogerx

szabomd said:


> Liszt was born in Doborján/Raiding in 1811 in Hungary, but today the town is in Austria.


Used to be a kingdom as far as I recall?


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## Bwv 1080

szabomd said:


> Liszt was born in Doborján/Raiding in 1811 in Hungary, but today the town is in Austria.


The town was part of the Kingdom of Austria in 1811 as most was all of modern Hungary


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## Rogerx

Bwv 1080 said:


> The town was part of the Kingdom of Austria in 1811 as most was all of modern Hungary


So that is settled twice then.


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## Bwv 1080

Rogerx said:


> So that is settled twice then.


But Austria at the time was a client state of France, and Franz spent alot of time in Paris, so maybe he's French?


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## Rogerx

Bwv 1080 said:


> But Austria at the time was a client state of France, and Franz spent alot of time in Paris, so maybe he's French?


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franz_Liszt
Very interesting reading .


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## Bwv 1080

Rogerx said:


> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franz_Liszt
> Very interesting reading .


Yes, never knew he met Beethoven and studied w Salieri


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## Guest

Bwv 1080 said:


> Yes, never knew he met Beethoven and studied w Salieri


The authoritative biography by Alan Walker mentions a possible meeting with Beethoven when Liszt was still a child but the author says there is no known way to prove that it happened - and that it probably didn't!!


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## lextune

This is not correct.

The Walker biography confirms that the meeting DID in fact happen, [Vol.1 pages 80-82] (Beethoven's "conversation books" also confirm that the meeting happened), but that it happened in private.

What almost certainly DIDN'T happen was Beethoven attending Liszt's concert the next day, which is the 'legend', Schindler categorically says that Beethoven did not attend.

Liszt never denied the story of Beethoven attending his concert, and the so-called "kiss of consecration", because; to quote Walker directly [Vol.1 pg.83]:

"Because the essential part of the story for him (Liszt), was true. There was indeed a 'Weihekuss', although it occurred in circumstances rather different from those invented by his (Liszt's) biographers."


----------



## Guest

lextune said:


> This is not correct.
> 
> The Walker biography confirms that the meeting DID in fact happen, [Vol.1 pages 80-82] (Beethoven's "conversation books" also confirm that the meeting happened), but that it happened in private.
> 
> What almost certainly DIDN'T happen was Beethoven attending Liszt's concert the next day, which is the 'legend', Schindler categorically says that Beethoven did not attend.
> 
> Liszt never denied the story of Beethoven attending his concert, and the so-called "kiss of consecration", because; to quote Walker directly [Vol.1 pg.83]:
> 
> "Because the essential part of the story for him (Liszt), was true. There was indeed a 'Weihekuss', although it occurred in circumstances rather different from those invented by his (Liszt's) biographers."


*The essential part of the story FOR LISZT was true*. He was still a child and his father died the same year as Beethoven. This doesn't make it true and we definitely did not get the impression from Walker that it was definitive or absolute. I wanted it to be but it remains questionable and controversial.


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## lextune

Re-read what I posted. The meeting happened. It is confirmed in Beethoven's conversation book (an entry from Liszt's Father and/or Liszt himself). Walker absolutely confirms this. I gave the page number(s).

The part that is apocryphal is the concert/'Weihekuss', but Liszt let that legend persist because it (the kiss of consecration), was still essentially true for Liszt (that he received the kiss, just not at the concert).

I can post screenshots of the pages, but I assure you Walker confirms the meeting happened.


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## lextune

Vol. 1 page 84:

"The Weihekuss took place in Beethoven's home, not in the concert hall. And Beethoven's Conversation Books corroborate that this is where the meeting actually did take place."


----------



## Guest

lextune said:


> Re-read what I posted. The meeting happened. It is confirmed in Beethoven's conversation book (an entry from Liszt's Father and/or Liszt himself). Walker absolutely confirms this. I gave the page number(s).
> 
> The part that is apocryphal is the concert/'Weihekuss', but Liszt let that legend persist because it (the kiss of consecration), was still essentially true for Liszt (that he received the kiss, just not at the concert).
> 
> I can post screenshots of the pages, but I assure you Walker confirms the meeting happened.


OK, thanks for that. I, along with spouse, got the distinct impression that Liszt's memory was faulty. And we couldn't imagine the gruff and boorish Beethoven - who had no interest in children - being sympathetic to a prodigious pianist (of which he was one himself). It's good to see the apocryphal elements clearly understood!!


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## lextune

You are correct. Beethoven particularly disliked "child prodigies", and was not sympathetic to the idea of meeting the young Liszt.

Walker says "it took considerable urging on the part of Schindler (Beethoven's secretary) and Czerny to persuade the master to grant the interview at all."

Walker also says that while Beethoven's replies were obviously spoken "it is not difficult to read between the lines (of the conversation books) and guess that his reception of Liszt had been less than friendly" (page 81). And that Schindler later felt guilty about the outcome.

In my own personal defense of Beethoven here, (and Walker notes this as well), Beethoven was mostly deaf at this point, and meeting with a child pianist must have seemed quite pointless.


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## lextune

What is really telling from all of this is just how staggering a pianist Liszt must have been, even at 11 years of age, for Schindler and Czerny to go to such efforts.

Now that I have just reread the whole relevant section I should correct one of my previous posts where I said Liszt's concert was the next day, it was actually two days after the meeting. The meeting was on Friday April 11 1823, and Liszt's concert was on Sunday the 13th.

Walker notes that the, now feeling guilty, Schindler approached Beethoven on Saturday the 12th with this request:

"Little Liszt has urgently requested me humbly to beg you for a theme on which to improvise at his concert tomorrow. He will not break the seal till the time comes."

Beethoven did not provide a theme. (Vol.1 pg.82)


----------



## Guest

lextune said:


> What is really telling from all of this is just how staggering a pianist Liszt must have been, even at 11 years of age, for Schindler and Czerny to go to such efforts.
> 
> Now that I have just reread the whole relevant section I should correct one of my previous posts where I said Liszt's concert was the next day, it was actually two days after the meeting. The meeting was on Friday April 11 1823, and Liszt's concert was on Sunday the 13th.
> 
> Walker notes that the, now feeling guilty, Schindler approached Beethoven on Saturday the 12th with this request:
> 
> "Little Liszt has urgently requested me humbly to beg you for a theme on which to improvise at his concert tomorrow. He will not break the seal till the time comes."
> 
> Beethoven did not provide a theme. (Vol.1 pg.82)


As you say, it was largely pointless anyway because Liszt was so young and Beethoven so deaf!!


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## agustis

Not sure if this is more of a nod to Liszt or Paganini but I adore this recording.


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## hammeredklavier

Bwv 1080 said:


> he studied w Salieri


I think some of Liszt's stuff like his requiem reflects it.


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## Rogerx

Liszt -- Sonata in B Minor -- Alfred Brendel -- 1985 Japan
The master wit this outstanding Music.


----------



## Sid James

*Revisiting Liszt, part one: concertos, poetic and programmatic*

_“It would be good to invent a new form that consists of one large movement in a moderate tempo, wherein the preparatory part might take the place of a first allegro, the cantabile that of the adagio and a brilliant conclusion that of the rondo. Perhaps this idea will inspire something that we would gladly see embodied in a peculiarly original compositon.”_
- Robert Schumann, _Neue Zeitschrift fur Musik_, 1836.

*Piano Concerto #2* (1839, published 1861/3)

During the first half of the 19th century, the concerto shifted away from merely being a virtuoso showpiece and began to take on the characteristics of a symphony. Liszt was at the forefront of this change, and his models included Schubert’s _Wanderer Fantasy_, Weber’s _Konzertstuck_ and Mendelssohn’s _Capriccio brilliant_. When he read Schumann’s article, Liszt responded by saying that he intended to compose a concerto along similar lines.

Liszt’s *Piano Concerto #2 *has a free flowing and poetic quality, but it’s also tightly integrated. It reads like a series of conversations, between the pianist and orchestra or individual sections and soloists. There are no breaks, and after the opening the pianist never repeats the theme in its original form. Here, the theme is transformed rather than developed.

The calm opening of the work brings images of nature to mind. A strident and dramatic idea emerges, becoming increasingly agitated, even warlike. The third movement (Allegro moderato), with a reflective cello solo being delicately answered by the piano, is where the poetry really kicks in. Reminiscences of earlier ideas follow, with moods ranging from triumphant to lyrical. There is a stately quality here which ensures that there is no rush to reach the conclusion.

Video: _Donald and Daffy Duck as duelling pianists perform the Hungarian Rhapsody No. 2 in Who Framed Roger Rabbit? Although Liszt sought to get away from it, popular culture has done nothing but strengthen his image as a virtuoso pianist. Liszt’s name is, for all intents and purposes, synonymous with the most entertaining and captivating piano music._






*Totentanz* (1839, published 1864/65)

_“In vain I implored him to play something from his Totentanz…To no avail I asked him to explain the principal variations in Totentanz, for which no programme is given (contrary to the practice Liszt has followed in all his symphonic works). He flatly refused to play this piece, and as for the programme, he said only that it was one of those works whose content must not be made public. A strange secret, a strange exception, the strange effect of his life as and abbe and his stay in Rome!”_
- Critic Vladimir Stasov, remembering a meeting with Liszt in 1869.

Liszt’s retirement as a concert pianist in the 1840’s changed his entire outlook towards composition, he sought to shift the focus away from himself as a virtuoso. While the first concerto still had Liszt the performer somewhat in the foreground, the second had the soloist and orchestra as equal partners. *Totentanz* combines these and adds a programmatic element.

_Totentanz_ reads like a musical diptych. It was inspired by images of the last judgement, the woodcuts by Holbein and frescoes at the Camposanto cemetery in Pisa. Likewise, the piece combines two sets of variations, on the _Dies Irae_ plainchant and an eight-note theme from Mozart’s _Requiem_. The strategy of combining two similar themes within the same piece is brilliant, because it allows for musical variety while also maintaining thematic integrity.

The _Dies Irae _variations start after an ominous introduction, the timpani and brass bringing forth the images of skeletons playing instruments in the images by Holbein. A series of accompanied variations encase a canon and fugue, separated by a lonely clarinet solo. Time seems to be suspended in the former, while the latter emphasises propulsive energy. I like the sense of contrast here, it’s my favourite part of the piece.

The second set of variations starts about three-quarters into the piece. There is somewhat of a lighter quality here, and as in Liszt’s first concerto there is a section where the triangle accompanies the piano. The initial theme eventually returns, ushering in the brilliant conclusion.

The recordings I listened to:

_Concerto #2 _– Jorge Bolet, piano/Rochester SO/David Zinman; alto ALC 1011

_Totentanz _– Peter Katin, piano/London PO/Jean Martinon (mono recording); Decca Eloquence 476 7671

Source:

“Liszt’s piano concerti: a lost tradition” by Anna Celenza (in Hamilton, K. (ed.) _The Cambridge Companion to Liszt_, Cambridge University Press, Cambridge, 2005).


----------



## Sid James

*Revisiting Liszt, part two: solitary dreamer of the piano*

_"To tell the truth, I have an increasingly poor opinion of my things, and it is only through my reaction to the indulgence of others that I manage to find them acceptable. One the other hand, I greatly enjoy many of the compositions of my colleagues and masters. They amply repay me for the tediousness and shortcomings of my own."_
- Liszt, in a letter, 1876.

During his lifetime, Liszt was more known as a pianist than a composer, and he almost never performed his original music in recitals. While public performances tended to feature his transcriptions and paraphrases of other composers music, it was in the company of colleagues that he felt most comfortable performing his wholly original music. Other composers may have appreciated Liszt’s fresh approach to harmony and form, but certain critics didn’t, and some of his music lay unpublished until the 1920’s.

Liszt’s piano music is notable for its combination of tunefulness, ardent passion and brilliant virtuosic display. His late music often took on a dissonant, austere and even morbid edge. After the death of two of his children, he experienced periods of depression. He was busy until the very end, acting as mentor to a younger generation of musicians, and dividing his time between Rome, Budapest and Weimar.

Although a number of Liszt’s large scale works remain in the repertoire, it’s arguable that his shorter works for piano are the most important part of his output. These are often grouped into sets, and many almost take the form of confessionals, conveying intense expressions of his innermost feelings and experiences. They inevitably relate to places, art, literature and personal emotions.

It seems that by the end of his life, composing became somewhat of a solitary journey for Liszt. His music was of such an intimate nature that it couldn’t have much of an audience. He was often emotionally drained by the experience of crystallising his thoughts into music in the painstaking manner which he did.

_Video: Liszt’s music has entered popular culture via movies. Here’s the Mephisto Waltz #1 played in a scene from the thriller Victoria (2015)_.






I chose to focus on three pieces which can be taken to represent different aspects of Liszt – as a lover, a virtuoso and a dreamer.

*Liebestraum #3* (1850)

This is Liszt’s most famous piano piece, apart from the second rhapsody, and it is a transcription of one of his own songs (_O lieb, so lang du lieben kannst_). This is somewhat ironic, since Liszt as a composer was most famous for his transcriptions of other people’s music. It was already a hit during his lifetime.

Liszt told a piano student to play the piece in “a fairly forward-moving tempo.” The piano version is shorter than the original song, and has none of its sentimental lyrics. I’m generally not a fan of art song, but I think that in this case, the transcription improves upon the original.

I like how the tune builds up to an impassioned climax in the middle and then winds down in an appropriately dreamy way. It can be taken to be a lover’s conversation, or even a mild quarrel. It has a gently vocal and somewhat conversational tone.

*Mephisto Waltz #1 *(1856-61)

This vivid, programmatic virtuoso piece is packed with frenetic energy. It’s organised along the same lines as the _Faust Symphony_. The first part is a wild wedding dance. It is followed by a slow section, which conveys the forest scene where Faust takes the girl, and this includes imitation of birdsong which somewhat brightens up the tragic mood. The initial waltz tune creeps back, intertwined with the birdsong, and picks up in intensity before the conclusion.

_Video: Liebestraum has been arranged for many combinations, including jazz. Eugen Cicero did a great version for jazz trio back in the 1960’s. Here is a more recent interpretation from 2011 by Morten Gunnar Larsen, adding a gypsy swing vibe to the original tune_:






*The Fountains of the Villa d’Este* (1877, from the _Years of Pilgrimage_ third year)

Composed while Liszt was staying at the Villa d’Este in Rome, Liszt’s depiction of the fountains there is the pivotal movement of the final set of his _Pilgrimage_ series. Wedged between a couple of weighty movements on either side, the water of the fountains offer not only liquid but also spiritual refreshment for the traveller along the road of life.

It’s a remarkable piece in itself, as innovative as anything he wrote, a masterpiece of colour, harmony and modulation. Three related ideas emerge from the rippling introduction – playful, songlike and ornamental, with trills. Variations of these emerge, flowing like water, the harmonies simultaneously rich and vague. The climax towards the middle has a pentatonic flavour.

The young Claude Debussy, who was staying in the nearby Villa Medici, visited Liszt on three occasions. This was in 1886, the final year of Liszt’s life. Whether or not Liszt played the _Fountains_ to him, its clear that his music made a great impact on Debussy. There’s a near quote of _Fountains_ in _L’Isle joyeuse_ (1905). It also influenced Debussy’s colleague Ravel, who studied and played Liszt’s music.

The recordings which I listened to:
_Liebestraum_ – Lang Lang, piano (DGG, 477 9014)
_Mephisto_ – Jorge Bolet, piano (alto, ALC 1011)
_Fountains_ – Stephanie McCallum, piano (ABC Classics 476 124-8)

Sources:
Baker, J.M., _Liszt’s late piano works: larger forms_.
Hamilton, K., _Liszt’s early and Weimar piano works_.
Hennemann, M., _Liszt’s Lieder_.
All in Hamilton, K. (ed.), _The Cambridge Companion to Liszt_, Cambridge University Press, 2005.


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## Sid James

*Revisiting Liszt, part three: Faust in triple harmony*

_Franz sat down at the piano, apologizing: ‘My conception differs from yours. Your Faust is damned, mine is saved.’ He stubbed out his cigarette in an ashtray and began to play, commenting now and then upon his score: ‘Here the bassoons will come in, then the ‘cellos. Now the trumpets are breaking in…and then the clarinet joins them.’

‘A triple harmony,’ exclaimed Berlioz.

‘There will be five themes,’ Franz explained, scattering a handful of high notes on the deep bass of the lowest octave. ‘Listen: the lark is in the ascendant, and changes now from a lark to a dove of forgiveness.’

He stopped playing, closed the piano, threw back his hair and raised his luminous, glowing eyes to his friend. ‘That is as far as I have gone. I do not quite know where this triple harmony will take me.’

‘You are a hundred years ahead of all of us,’ Berlioz interrupted. ‘I have never heard anything like it. Let me try out this first part myself.’_

- From the novel _Franz Liszt_, by Jean Rousselot.

*A Faust Symphony* (1854)

_A Faust Symphony_ marks the high point of Liszt’s orchestral music, occupying the same position as his _Sonata in B minor_ in his piano output. It has been the subject of analysis by many scholars, who have been fascinated by its novel methods of thematic development and use of complex key relationships.

I first came across this symphony on a documentary about Liszt. Even though they only played the introduction, I was instantly intrigued. I still think it’s amazing how Liszt manages to hold such a long work together, with everything being tightly related to those initial themes. It’s a fascinating work on so many levels – as an epic symphony, as an illustration of the Faust story, perhaps even as a portrayal of the composer’s complex persona.

Liszt had a lifelong interest in different ways of thinking. Heinrich Heine said that it was impossible to figure out where Liszt stood, philosophically speaking. Nevertheless, he acknowledged Liszt’s “indefatigable thirst for enlightenment and divinity.” Liszt had been an avid reader since he was a young adult, in part he saw it as a way of catching up on education which he had missed out on during his childhood, which was dominated by music.

_Video__: The Faust story has had a few interpretations in cinema, including Mephisto (1981, dir. Istvan Szabo) which made it into a political thriller set in Nazi Germany. Jan Svankmajer’s 1994 version conveyed the story as a play within a play, with a surreal sense of fantasy._





The piece is made up of three character sketches: _Faust, Gretchen_ and _Mephistopheles_.

The introductory passages contain the thematic material which is developed in the entire symphony. The first group of themes has no tonal centre, the strings and oboe lead to music which is vigorous, urgent and compelling. The second group emerges from a passage played on bassoon, the whole orchestra pounds out a related theme. The two thematic groups can be taken to contrast the clash between Faust’s inner struggles and his ambition as expressed in his actions.

Despite its epic scale, the piece doesn’t lack nuance. During the middle of the _Faust_ and _Gretchen_ movements, a mystical quality comes to the fore, as the themes blend together. There is scoring of great delicacy involving woodwinds, flute and harp. There’s contrast between vastness and intimacy, suggesting something of the struggle between Faust’s inner psychology and the outer world. In_ Gretchen_, the gentler music suggests the power of this woman to soothe the beast.

The concluding _Mephistopheles_ movement alone is a tour de force. The earlier themes are twisted, caricatured, pulled apart. The oboe theme is there, but it seems lost amongst the chaos. Surely, there must be few pieces from the period with so many changes in rhythm. The symphony originally had a purely orchestral ending and Liszt added the choral finale three years later. It lifts the mood and lends a spiritual, almost religious, quality to the piece.

The recording which I listened to:

Gosta Winbergh, tenor; Westminster Choir College Male Chorus (dir: Joseph Flummerfelt); Philadelphia Orch.; Riccardo Muti, cond.; EMI 5090182

Sources:

Ellis, K., _Liszt: the Romantic artist_.

Shulstad, R., _Liszt’s symphonic poems and symphonies_.

(in Hamilton, K. (ed.) _The Cambridge Companion to Liszt_, Cambridge University Press, Cambridge, 2005).

Rousselot, J. (trans. M. Budberg), _Franz Liszt_, Cape publishing, London, 1960.


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## ganio

Stavrogin said:


> I have a question for anyone who can reply.
> 
> What is Liszt's actual birth name: *Franz* or *Ferencz*?
> 
> Most sources report both versions, with the former as the first.
> However, he was born in a town which was part of the Hungarian kingdom at the time (despite being in Austria today) from a Hungarian family. Which makes me wonder if his actual name was Ferenc (or as Wiki reports, Ferencz).
> 
> What did his parents call him? What is the record in the official list (pun intended) of the County?
> 
> Does anyone have reliable and certain sources on this?


The baptismal book of the parish of Unterfrauenheid, where Liszt was baptized, mentions his name in Latin: Franciscus.


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