# Brahms Symphonies



## bz3

So I've found Brahms to be my favorite Romantic composer lately, but I only owned Haitink's Symphony/Concertos/Etc. collection as far as his orchestral music is concerned. I also had Kleiber's 4th, which speaks for itself and doesn't need my approval. I recently got Chailly's and I like it very much, but I wanted to know where I should go from here.

It needn't be a cycle, just give me your favorites of each of his 4 symphonies and/or renditions you think would complement the relatively crisp style of Chailly - who I find myself turning to most often.


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## bz3

As a potential followup, I am looking at Sanderling's 2 cycles (seen it recommended in old threads, reading reviews). I see that Dresden is the more heralded but that the Berlin is more recent and with better sound quality. Would I be foolish to get the Berlin instead should I choose to go for a Sanderling cycle?


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## Triplets

bz3 said:


> As a potential followup, I am looking at Sanderling's 2 cycles (seen it recommended in old threads, reading reviews). I see that Dresden is the more heralded but that the Berlin is more recent and with better sound quality. Would I be foolish to get the Berlin instead should I choose to go for a Sanderling cycle?


I owned the Dresden set for years on an old RCA Eurodisc import. I recently purchased an enhanced bly ray version of the cycle from Japan (cdjapan) and there is a noticeable improvement. I don't know the Berlin cycle.
My other favorite cycle is Klemperer on EMI and in multichannel, Janowski/Pittsburgh.
Favorites:
1) Klemperer or Szell
2) Sanderling
3) Klemperer, Furtwangler, Sanderling
4) Furtwangler, Klemperer, or my all time, Reiner/Royal Phil


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## billeames

Hello,

I like the following best. There are other good ones too. 

Brahms 1: Ozawa/Boston*, Levine CSO, Kempe Munich PO
Brahms 2: Karajan 1986, Monteux LSO, Kempe Munich PO, Giulini LAPO
Brahms 3: Klemperer PO EMI, Solti CSO, 
Brahms 4: Kleiber VPO, Giulini CSO, Kempe Munich PO

*OOP in Japan. except single layer SACD

Thanks, Bill


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## Animal the Drummer

I love Karajan's Brahms 1 from the 1970s. It makes me think of Robert Frost's "The woods are lovely, dark and deep".


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## Pugg

I do like the whole Karajan set (first recording ) on DG


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## Guest

I, too, like Karajan's 1970s Brahms as well as Christian Thielemann's newish recording.


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## Vaneyes

HvK '63/4.


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## AndorFoldes

We probably all have our warhorses.

Mine is Abbado/BPO. Some of his best recordings with the BPO.

Vaneyes, how strange that Karajan's 1960s cycle is only available as a patchwork of recordings, not as a set. The first symphony from that cycle is justly famous, but I find the sound quality to be one notch behind Abbado.


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## Vaneyes

AndorFoldes said:


> We probably all have our warhorses.
> 
> Mine is Abbado/BPO. Some of his best recordings with the BPO.
> 
> Vaneyes, how strange that Karajan's 1960s cycle is only available as a patchwork of recordings, not as a set. *The first symphony from that cycle is justly famous, but I find the sound quality to be one notch behind Abbado.*


"The good news is that these new reissues sound terrific: There is almost none of the quasi-metallic scraping and dry, air-between-the-notes sound that so irritated listeners when the new digital technology emerged in the middle 1980s. The bad news is that listeners may find themselves, yet once more, buying new copies of their favorite recordings. To take one example, compare the new transfer of the Karajan-Berlin Philharmonic Schumann Symphony No. 1 (coupled with Brahms' Symphony No. 1) to the 1990 transfer. The opening horn call is more clearly focused, not shrill as in the 1990 transfer, and the fanfare that follows has the solidity and richness of the 1972 LP issue."

- Stephen Wigler, _The Baltimore Sun_, [02/25/1996] (About this CD reissue within The Originals series.)


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## phlrdfd

In stereo, the Levine/CSO cycle is very good. If you don't mind mono, the Furtwangler cycle on Music and Arts contains some of his best Brahms on record.

Or

1: Furtwangler (BPO '52 or NDRS '51), Jochum/BPO, Levine/CSO or Horenstein/LSO
2: Walter/NYP, Karajan (BPO 60s), Abbado/BPO
3: Walter/NYP, Giulini/VPO, Reiner/CSO
4: Furtwangler (BPO wartime), Karajan/Philharmonia, Giulini/VPO


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## premont

I was very taken by Klemperer in this music in my youth.

To day I find Klemperer too serious and prefer the lyrical Walter (Columbia SO recording) or thje classical Boult (his first recording from the 1950es).


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## brotagonist

Doesn't anyone like Bernstein/Wiener Philharmoniker?










It's one of the first CD sets I got, back in the early '90s.


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## Mal

1. Klemperer
2. Jurowski/LPO
3. Walter/Columbia SO
4. Let me think...


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## billeames

I would like to make a correction: (Bychkov comment below, Solti CSO added to no 2, and a comment regarding Giulini 4)

Brahms 1: Ozawa/Boston*, Levine CSO, Kempe Munich PO
Brahms 2: Karajan 1986, Monteux LSO, Kempe Munich PO, Giulini LAPO, Solti CSO
Brahms 3: Klemperer PO EMI, Solti CSO,
Brahms 4: Kleiber VPO, Giulini CSO, Kempe Munich PO But the Giulini VPO is powerful...many will think its too slow. 

*OOP in Japan. except single layer SACD
I am still trying to evaluate Bychkov WDR, not sure I am going to buy it..I have many already.
I really comes down to what you value in a performance, and what notes are emphisized or de-emphisized. Sound, conducting style. Bernstein VPO while many like got so-so reviews in Fanfare magazine in 1984. I am perplexed by the mixed Fanfare reviews of the Orozco-Estrada set (12/15).


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## Templeton

Agree regarding James Levine and the Chicago Symphony Orchestra but equally as good, if not better imho, is Levine's cycle with the Vienna Philharmonic, which is sumptuous.


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## DavidA

Must confess that I have never appreciated Brahms symphonies too much. The concertos are another matter. I have the Karajan 1977 set which is fine and also odd symphonies like the 4th by Stokowski (made when he was 90!) and C Kleiber. Also some with Klemperer. But they are not very much played.


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## tdc

I didn't like Brahms symphonies at first, but I like them more the more I listen. Sounds like I have to check out a Levine cycle.


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## dieter

The Dresden is the classic 'younger man' interpretation. The 2nd Sanderling cycle is Celibidache like, slower, the ruminations of a wiser man. I have both. Love them both. I am a Brahms tragic. I have 36 sets of his symphonies.


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## bigshot

DavidA said:


> Must confess that I have never appreciated Brahms symphonies too much. The concertos are another matter. I have the Karajan 1977 set which is fine and also odd symphonies like the 4th by Stokowski (made when he was 90!) and C Kleiber. Also some with Klemperer. But they are not very much played.


I feel the same way. I keep buying Brahms symphony sets and I listen to them, but they just seem too spread out and never seem to grab me. I always thought it was just something missing in me, so I don't mention it. It's interesting to hear someone else say the same.


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## Steve Wright

dieter said:


> I am a Brahms tragic. I have 36 sets of his symphonies.


Wow! That'll be me in a few months at this rate...
Share with us your favourite Brahms cycles...?


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## Brahmsian Colors

My top picks for sets are Klemperer, Walter (with both the NY Philharmonic in mono and the Columbia Symphony in stereo), Kertesz and Jochum (both his mono/Berlin "Originals" and his London Philharmonic versions in stereo).

Individually....

#1 Klemperer/Philharmonia and stereo Van Beinum/Amsterdam Concertgebouw (aka Royal Concertgebouw)
#2 Kertesz/London Symphony on BBC Legends and Walter (in both of his sets above)
#3 Kempe/Berlin Philharmonic, Klemperer and Tennstedt/London Philharmonic on BBC Legends
#4 Walter, Klemperer, Kertesz (from sets above)


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## Judith

Have two!

Simon Rattle Berlin Philharmonic
Riccardo Muti Philadelphia Orchestra

Can't decide which one is the better!


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## Klassik

Judith said:


> Have two!
> 
> Simon Rattle Berlin Philharmonic
> Riccardo Muti Philadelphia Orchestra
> 
> Can't decide which one is the better!


Well, if you have both of them, which one do you find to be better through your listening? 

I'd probably pick Muti out of those two.


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## Judith

Klassik said:


> Well, if you have both of them, which one do you find to be better through your listening?
> 
> I'd probably pick Muti out of those two.


Think I would agree! Muti seems a bit fuller compared to Rattle!


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## Oldhoosierdude

http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2011/July11/Brahms_zweden_94074.htm

I like this one.

I also like the recordings from the $.99 Big Brahms Box by the Utah Symphony.


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## jegreenwood

There may be no other set of works where I feel multiple recordings is more necessary.

My base recordings are Szell (for the energy) and Klemperer (for the gravity).

I also have:

Toscanini - NBC Orchestra
Walter - Columbia Symphony
Karajan - 70s
Mackerras
Masur - for SACD/surround (if someday I have the setup for it)
Abbado - Berlin

I also have a number of individual recordings. Of all of those, I am least impressed with the Karajan, and I have spent little time with the Masur. I bought the Chailly on Blu-Ray, but the disc was defective and wouldn't play. (See my review on Amazon among others). When I listened to it on Tidal, I didn't feel it was a critical addition. My starter set in the early 70s was Leinsdorf/BSO on an RCA cut-out box. If RCA released those recordings in a digital format I would enjoy re-evaluating them.


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## Heck148

bz3 said:


> It needn't be a cycle, just give me your favorites of each of his 4 symphonies and/or renditions you think would complement the relatively crisp style of Chailly - who I find myself turning to most often.


The complete sets of Toscanini/NBC and Solti are very excellent throughout.

for individual performances:

Sym #1 - the aforementioned Solti is outstanding, so is Wand/CSO
Sym #2 - lots of great ones - Monteux/LSO is really stellar, Reiner/NYPO "live" from 3/60 is great, really rousing performance..Bernstein/NYPO is also very good,the best of that set by far.
Sym #3 - tough piece to do well - Reiner/CSO, Szell/CO, Levine/CSO are my faovrites
Sym #4 - the aforementioned Toscanini/NBC and Reiner/RoyPO are fantastic performances - both achieve amazing intensity by the final movement...


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## Animal the Drummer

Symph.no 1: Karajan and the BPO, specifically the recording issued in the late 60s/early 70s. The single greatest recording of any of the Brahms symphonies that I know, rich, dark and craggy.

Symph.no 2: I like Bruno Walter's sunlit reading with the Columbia Symphony but you may want better sound than that offers.

Symph.no.3: Klemperer and the Philharmonia in vintage form.

Symph.no.4: Carlos Kleiber (there's also a fine Symph.no.2 from him on video only).


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## SixFootScowl

Oldhoosierdude said:


> I also like the recordings from the $.99 Big Brahms Box by the Utah Symphony.
> View attachment 95708


That looks like a whopper of a deal. I might have to go for it. But it is showing up for me at $2.99. Still a great deal.


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## Granate

I'm no expert but I actually enjoy Brahms the most with Celibidache in EMI and the ORTF recordings. Karajan 60's is good... I guess. I never loved them. Barbirolli WPO is not bad.


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## Granate

Gardiner for SDG let me down


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## Itullian

Several good sets out there.
Klemperer, Walter, Haitink. Celi, Bernstein DG
This is among my favorites.


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## SixFootScowl

I have these two, but have not settled on a favorite, or even come to be that fond of Brahms' symphonies.


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## AfterHours

Pretty sure I've already commented, but I've heard many renditions of each and have thus far concluded that the best recordings of each of Brahms' Symphonies are the following (images used are the issues available on Spotify):

*Symphony #1*

*James Levine - Wiener Philharmonker (1995?)*










*Symphony #2*

*Herbert von Karajan - Berlin Philharmonic (1987)*










*Symphony #3*

*Gunter Wand - Sinfonieorchester des NDR (1983) *










*Symphony #4*

*Carlos Kleiber - Wiener Philarmoniker (1980)*


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## JeffD

I really like Brahms First Symphony. I cannot imagine writing a symphony after hearing Beethoven's Ninth. One could think that everything that can be said in a symphony has just been said.

And yet there was indeed more to say, and Brahms found it.


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## Itullian

JeffD said:


> I really like Brahms First Symphony. I cannot imagine writing a symphony after hearing Beethoven's Ninth. One could think that everything that can be said in a symphony has just been said.
> 
> And yet there was indeed more to say, and Brahms found it.


Yeah, four times.


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## JeffD

Itullian said:


> Yeah, four times.


Yes, of course. But I have a real fondness for that first one, which must have taken a monstrous amount of "screwing your courage to the sticking place". He must have been shaking, to consider, to even think to himself "Herr Beethoven, es gibt noch mehr zu sagen..."


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## Pugg

The 1963/64 Karajan set is still my very favourite.


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## Guest

His symphonies are so tuneful :angel:


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## Oldhoosierdude

Florestan said:


> That looks like a whopper of a deal. I might have to go for it. But it is showing up for me at $2.99. Still a great deal.


I've had that since 3/2017. I could have sworn it was .99. Still, great stuff. The Hungarian Dances are top drawer as far as I am concerned.


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## chill782002

Furtwangler's Brahms performances are generally pretty good, particularly the 1951 1st with the NDR SO, the 1945 2nd with the VPO and the 1943 4th with the BPO. He never really got the hang of the 3rd for some reason, although the 1949 performance with the BPO is better than his others. The downside to the Furtwangler recordings though is the often tubercular sounding audiences. So much coughing!

The 1950s Klemperer cycle with the Philharmonia Orchestra and the 1950s Jochum cycle with the BPO are also good and, as studio recordings, have the advantage of not giving the impression that the audience is expiring during the performance. Walter's early 1950s cycle with the NYPO is also worthy of note in my opinion. I've never been convinced by Karajan's renditions, either the 1960s or the 1970s, although a lot of people on here seem to disagree with me. Each to their own.


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## AfterHours

chill782002 said:


> Furtwangler's Brahms performances are generally pretty good, particularly the 1951 1st with the NDR SO, the 1945 2nd with the VPO and the 1943 4th with the BPO. He never really got the hang of the 3rd for some reason, although the 1949 performance with the BPO is better than his others. The downside to the Furtwangler recordings though is the often tubercular sounding audiences. So much coughing!
> 
> The 1950s Klemperer cycle with the Philharmonia Orchestra and the 1950s Jochum cycle with the BPO are also good and, as studio recordings, have the advantage of not giving the impression that the audience is expiring during the performance. Walter's early 1950s cycle with the NYPO is also worthy of note in my opinion. I've never been convinced by Karajan's renditions, either the 1960s or the 1970s, although a lot of people on here seem to disagree with me. Each to their own.


The Klemperer and Jochum cycles are indeed outstanding. If I were to choose a Karajan Brahms cycle, I'd go with his 1960s one -- but there are better Brahms cycles by other conductors (Wand, Levine, Jochum...). However, his 1987 rendition of Brahms' 2nd is truly _INCREDIBLE_ (listed in my post above) and certainly the very best that I've ever heard.


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## chill782002

AfterHours said:


> The Klemperer and Jochum cycles are indeed outstanding. If I were to choose a Karajan Brahms cycle, I'd go with his 1960s one -- but there are better Brahms cycles by other conductors (Wand, Levine, Jochum...). However, his 1987 rendition of Brahms' 2nd is truly _INCREDIBLE_ (listed in my post above) and certainly the very best that I've ever heard.


Thank you, I've never heard that one. I'll give it a try.


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## Brahmsianhorn

chill782002 said:


> Furtwangler's Brahms performances are generally pretty good, particularly the 1951 1st with the NDR SO, the 1945 2nd with the VPO and the 1943 4th with the BPO. He never really got the hang of the 3rd for some reason, although the 1949 performance with the BPO is better than his others. The downside to the Furtwangler recordings though is the often tubercular sounding audiences. So much coughing!
> 
> The 1950s Klemperer cycle with the Philharmonia Orchestra and the 1950s Jochum cycle with the BPO are also good and, as studio recordings, have the advantage of not giving the impression that the audience is expiring during the performance. Walter's early 1950s cycle with the NYPO is also worthy of note in my opinion. I've never been convinced by Karajan's renditions, either the 1960s or the 1970s, although a lot of people on here seem to disagree with me. Each to their own.


I must strongly disagree about the 3rd. Furtwangler's 1954 performance is one of the greatest of all Brahms recordings. Passionate, intense, beautiful, perfectly proportioned and in good sound for a live recording.

I agree regarding the 1951 1st and 1945 2nd, two great recordings that every Brahms enthusiast should hear. I do think however that there is a better Furtwangler 4th from a 1949 concert in Wiesbaden. I think it's the most exciting of his 4ths. I have a good transfer on Tahra, coupled with an excellent Mozart 40th from the same concert.

For modern recordings I am actually quite partial to the Abbado Berlin cycle from the 90s. Many fault them for lacking intensity, but I find them very Brahmsian, and you couldn't ask for better sound.

I also like Karajan's 1963 1st, Cantelli's 3rd, and of course the famous Carlos Kleiber 4th. I think Kleiber was even better in Brahms than his more famous Beethoven recordings.


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## Vaneyes

Animal the Drummer said:


> Symph.no 1: Karajan and the BPO, specifically the recording issued in the late 60s/early 70s. The single greatest recording of any of the Brahms symphonies that I know, rich, dark and craggy.
> 
> Symph.no 2: I like Bruno Walter's sunlit reading with the Columbia Symphony but you may want better sound than that offers.
> 
> Symph.no.3: Klemperer and the Philharmonia in vintage form.
> 
> Symph.no.4: Carlos Kleiber (there's also a fine Symph.no.2 from him on video only).


Nice grouping. Re Klemps cycle, I admire 1 - 3, but 4 seems a misfit. I read recording sessions were halted when his wife died. He returned to complete 4 and the cycle. :tiphat:


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## Merl

Since I'm having a very Brahmsian type of day, I thought I'd re-animate this thread (I was on holiday when people were commenting recently). *Just a quick newsflash - whilst going through a box of old external hard drives, in the spare room, I found one I thought was dead. I plugged it in and voila (it span up), there was 200GB of classical music I thought I'd lost in the 'Great Hard Drive Crash of 2012'. 5 Beethoven cycles I thought I'd lost forever, about 20 Brahms cycles that I hadn't replaced and are hard to get and a lot of Mahler and Bruckner (that seems to be all mixed-up in one folder and needs sorting).

Anyhoo, back to the subject and I agree about the Abbado cycle (always liked it a lot), Van Zweden is consistently great across his cycle, Szell and Karajan (70s) are benchmarks, Klemperer is great in 3 of them and I think the world of Janowski's Pentatone set. I'll give my personal preferences for each symphony later. I'm listening to Brahms all day today.


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## Merl

Apologies for the double post. Having had some time to think about this, my current Brahms 'recommendations' list for individual symphonies would be:

# 1 Szell
# 2 Karajan (60s)
# 3 Alsop
# 4 Kleiber or Abbado (depends what mood I'm in)


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## bisque

Since my childhood, the only versions of the Brahms symphonies I knew were Ormandy - I liked Ormandy very much when I was young, and I especially liked his orchestra and the Columbia stereo of that period. But despite several listenings I just didn't ever respond to the symphonies and I'd given up on them. But then I discovered the Eloquence series of CDs from Australia and I've been buying those like they were going out of style - wonderful remasterings and some great performances and reasonably priced, too. So, on a whim I bought the Kubelik set - I knew not much of Kubelik but I figured why not? Well, his performances of the four symphonies was like hearing music I'd never heard before and it completely turned me around. Beautiful sound from the Vienna players - just loved it and highly recommend it. Then I realized Eloquence had a few other Brahms sets, so I bought the Istvan Kertesz set and that was every bit as good, also in wonderful sound and also with the Vienna band. I also got from Eloquence the Ansermet, and they're pretty good, too. So many choices, but I really recommend the the Kubelik and Kertesz sets - priced right, too.


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## Granate

I'm hopping in this thread without reading all the pages. I already own the Kubelík German Requiem from Audite and I have both Furtwängler and Knappertsbusch recordings of the symphonies. I was thinking about adding the complete set from Kubelík and the SOdBR in Orfeo now that it is on sale.

I played with lots of effort the Second symphony while doing jump rope. I then played like three minutes of the beginning of the third from the same Kubelík set and skipped to play the Knappertsbusch 1963 Cologne performance. It was a whole different universe! I own it on cd from the Memories set and I'm going to buy the Cologne No.4 too. I didn't want to just put this on Currently listening.










I'm now sampling the French live performance of the No.1 conducted by Otto Klemperer, before other selections included in the Memories set of Klemperer Brahms Live performances. I hope they sound as dynamic as the Furtwängler and Knappertsbusch, but so far it seems I don't need any Kubelík or anyone else. I'll see when I eventually do my challenge.


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## vincula

What a great album, Granate. I haven't orderer the Memories Brahms/Knappertsbusch.. yet. Must give it some thought, as I've got so many Brahms "cycles" already. I encourage you putting an ear to Eduard Van Beinum's for a different and equally valid approach. I'm not so thrilled by Kubelik's Brahms or Beethoven, as much as I generally like him otherwise.

There's a very special Brahms/Furtwängler no.1 which usually doesn't get as much exposure as other recordings, namely the one he recorded with the NDR Hamburg on 27th Oct '51. Worth several auditions. I've got this album:









There's much to enjoy in Jochum's first cycle too. I play it quite often. I find something "Furtwänglerian" about this particular one. The entire cycle has the some "tone". It hangs together so well:









Böhm's Brahms no. 2 in mono BPO/1956 deserves attention too. This one:









Sounds glorious too.

So many good ones out there! The mind boggles...

Regards,

Vincula


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## flamencosketches

vincula said:


> What a great album, Granate. I haven't orderer the Memories Brahms/Knappertsbusch.. yet. Must give it some thought, as I've got so many Brahms "cycles" already. I encourage you putting an ear to Eduard Van Beinum's for a different and equally valid approach. I'm not so thrilled by Kubelik's Brahms or Beethoven, as much as I generally like him otherwise.
> 
> There's a very special Brahms/Furtwängler no.1 which usually doesn't get as much exposure as other recordings, namely the one he recorded with the NDR Hamburg on 27th Oct '51. Worth several auditions. I've got this album:
> 
> View attachment 141019
> 
> 
> There's much to enjoy in Jochum's first cycle too. I play it quite often. I find something "Furtwänglerian" about this particular one. The entire cycle has the some "tone". It hangs together so well:
> 
> View attachment 141020
> 
> 
> Böhm's Brahms no. 2 in mono BPO/1956 deserves attention too. This one:
> 
> View attachment 141021
> 
> 
> Sounds glorious too.
> 
> So many good ones out there! The mind boggles...
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Vincula


That Furtwängler NDR Brahms 1 is the first time where I really felt myself impressed by the sound world of Brahms. I still have gratitude to Woodduck for recommending it to me last summer. My adoration for Brahms has grown boundlessly since then. (Unfortunately I can't say the same for Furtwängler; that's still the only recording of his I really like.)

I need to check out that Jochum/Berlin cycle! I love his stereo cycle with the LPO.


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## Simplicissimus

I really love the Brahms symphonies. They’ve been special to me for years and I come back to them regularly. But strangely, my three favorite recorded cycles are not only not generally well regarded, they are considered by many people to be quite bad. This is disconcerting. I like other, more popular recordings of the symphonies, too, but at the end of the day I have reasons to prefer my favorites.


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## Knorf

Simplicissimus said:


> I really love the Brahms symphonies. They've been special to me for years and I come back to them regularly. But strangely, my three favorite recorded cycles are not only not generally well regarded, they are considered by many people to be quite bad. This is disconcerting. I like other, more popular recordings of the symphonies, too, but at the end of the day I have reasons to prefer my favorites.


Mind listing them? I won't judge.

My Brahms cycle favorites include Karajan, Walter, Klemperer, Wand, Abbado, Skrowaczewski, Berglund, Chailly.


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## Simplicissimus

Knorf said:


> Mind listing them? I won't judge.
> 
> My Brahms cycle favorites include Karajan, Walter, Klemperer, Wand, Abbado, Skrowaczewski, Berglund, Chailly.


Sawallisch/Wiener Symphoniker, 1959-1963, Decca. I love the light touch and transparency. I can hear the beautiful interior orchestral textures. Sound and playing not the best, but not seriously deficient. [Hutwitz slagged this cycle.]

Dorati/London SO (Minneapolis for No. 2), 1957-1963, Mercury Living Presence. I like Dorati's fire and passion, getting to the heart of the Romantic aspects of the symphonies, and I admire the balance and cohesion among the movements that he brings. [This cycle seems not to be reviled, but neither is it much praised.]

Ormandy/Philadelphia, 1966-1968, Sony. Here it's the colors, thanks in large part to the strings, but all the orchestra sections contribute to an exceedingly rich sonic experience. Ormandy's phrasings and tempi make the symphonies sound quite distinct from other interpretations and provide interesting contrasts to more standard takes. [This cycle seems to be well outside the mainstream.]

I also like individual symphonies interpreted by Stokowski (4) Walter (2), and Ozawa (1).


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## vincula

Simplicissimus said:


> Dorati/London SO (Minneapolis for No. 2), 1957-1963, Mercury Living Presence. I like Dorati's fire and passion, getting to the heart of the Romantic aspects of the symphonies, and I admire the balance and cohesion among the movements that he brings. [This cycle seems not to be reviled, but neither is it much praised.]


Much to enjoy in Dorati's cycle, I agree. Sound has that annoying "Mercury treble lift", which can get tiresome in prolonged listening sessions with or without headphones. I've heard that the Japanese mastering/edition might have cured the problem somehow. Haven't listened to it first-hand. Still great SQ though -especially if one compares with many of my revered Furtwängler's recordings.

The entire cycle's on YouTube in good SQ.






Regards,

Vincula


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## Heck148

Simplicissimus said:


> Sawallisch/Wiener Symphoniker, 1959-1963, Decca. I love the light touch and transparency. I can hear the beautiful interior orchestral textures. Sound and playing not the best, but not seriously deficient.


Interesting, sometime in the early 60s, '63 maybe, I heard Sawallisch/ViennaSO perform Brahms #2 live...pretty sedate, understated, reserved...low key, as I remember..


> Ormandy/Philadelphia, 1966-1968, Sony. Here it's the colors, thanks in large part to the strings, but all the orchestra sections contribute to an exceedingly rich sonic experience.


Again, I heard Ormandy/Phila perform Brahms Sym #2 live in Eastman Theater, Rochester, NY c. '69 or '70...Fabulous!! Thrilling!! Great concert (also included Schuman NE 3tych)....orchestra sounded great, really brilliant playing....I always thought Ormandy/PhilaOrch sounded better live than on record....recordings had too much "processing" for the "Philadelphia Sound"....heavy in the strings, recessed winds and brass....they didn't sound that way live...heard them many, many times during 60s....


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## Knorf

Hurwitz is an imbecile, and mercilessly and uninformedly slags numerous superb recordings. His reviews are best left unread. Certainly do not let him persuade you to dislike something you like!


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## Simplicissimus

Heck148 said:


> Interesting, sometime in the early 60s, '63 maybe, I heard Sawallisch/ViennaSO perform Brahms #2 live...pretty sedate, understated, reserved...low key, as I remember..
> 
> Again, I heard Ormandy/Phila perform Brahms Sym #2 live in Eastman Theater, Rochester, NY c. '69 or '70...Fabulous!! Thrilling!! Great concert (also included Schuman NE 3tych)....orchestra sounded great, really brilliant playing....I always thought Ormandy/PhilaOrch sounded better live than on record....recordings had too much "processing" for the "Philadelphia Sound"....heavy in the strings, recessed winds and brass....they didn't sound that way live...heard them many, many times during 60s....


I have the Japanese Sony remastering of the Ormandy/Philadelphia cycle (ca. 2010), and as they often do with the old Philadelphia Orchestra recordings, they've done a fantastic job with the sound quality. IMO, the original tape recordings of the symphonies, performed in the acoustically very fine Town Hall (aka Scottish Rite Temple), are excellent. The "processing" for the LPs and non-remastered CDs is not good, I agree. Some of these recent Sony remasterings like these and Mahler's 10th just blow me away with tremendous sound quality.


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## Merl

Simplicissimus said:


> Sawallisch/Wiener Symphoniker, 1959-1963, Decca. I love the light touch and transparency. I can hear the beautiful interior orchestral textures. Sound and playing not the best, but not seriously deficient. [Hutwitz slagged this cycle.]
> 
> Dorati/London SO (Minneapolis for No. 2), 1957-1963, Mercury Living Presence. I like Dorati's fire and passion, getting to the heart of the Romantic aspects of the symphonies, and I admire the balance and cohesion among the movements that he brings. [This cycle seems not to be reviled, but neither is it much praised.]
> 
> Ormandy/Philadelphia, 1966-1968, Sony. Here it's the colors, thanks in large part to the strings, but all the orchestra sections contribute to an exceedingly rich sonic experience. Ormandy's phrasings and tempi make the symphonies sound quite distinct from other interpretations and provide interesting contrasts to more standard takes. [This cycle seems to be well outside the mainstream.]
> 
> I also like individual symphonies interpreted by Stokowski (4) Walter (2), and Ozawa (1).


I think you're being a bit rough on yourself, Simpy! There's nothing wrong with Sawallisch's VSO cycle. It's quite lively and enjoyable but isn't brilliantly recorded. Certainly not a bad one. However, his 2nd cycle in London (which came out on Brilliant) was much more of a mixed bag and had a rotten 1st, average 2nd, decent 3rd and a cracker of a 4th. I rate that Dorati set as its nice and fiery and driven (even if the 2nd is a bit iffy for me). As for Ormandy's cycle it's always been highly regarded and are probably some of my favourite recordings of his. Earlier in this thread (it was some years back) I praised Van Zweden's set on Brilliant but haven't listened to it much since last week when I put it on the car USB for a change. I've just listened to the 4th in the car on the way to and from work today and it's a really exciting performance. Looking forward to reacquainting myself with this often overlooked cycle.


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## Merl

Simplicissimus said:


> Sawallisch/Wiener Symphoniker, 1959-1963, Decca. I love the light touch and transparency. I can hear the beautiful interior orchestral textures. Sound and playing not the best, but not seriously deficient. [Hutwitz slagged this cycle.]
> 
> Dorati/London SO (Minneapolis for No. 2), 1957-1963, Mercury Living Presence. I like Dorati's fire and passion, getting to the heart of the Romantic aspects of the symphonies, and I admire the balance and cohesion among the movements that he brings. [This cycle seems not to be reviled, but neither is it much praised.]
> 
> Ormandy/Philadelphia, 1966-1968, Sony. Here it's the colors, thanks in large part to the strings, but all the orchestra sections contribute to an exceedingly rich sonic experience. Ormandy's phrasings and tempi make the symphonies sound quite distinct from other interpretations and provide interesting contrasts to more standard takes. [This cycle seems to be well outside the mainstream.]
> 
> I also like individual symphonies interpreted by Stokowski (4) Walter (2), and Ozawa (1).


I think you're being a bit rough on yourself, Simpy! There's nothing wrong with Sawallisch's VSO cycle. It's quite lively and enjoyable but isn't brilliantly recorded. Certainly not a bad one. However, his 2nd cycle in London (which came out on Brilliant) was much more of a mixed bag and had a rotten 1st, average 2nd, decent 3rd and a cracker of a 4th. I rate that Dorati set as its nice and fiery and driven (even if the 2nd is a bit iffy for me and the recorded sound isn't to my taste). As for Ormandy's cycle it's always been highly regarded and are probably some of my favourite recordings of his. Earlier in this thread (it was some years back) I praised Van Zweden's set on Brilliant but haven't listened to it much in years and then last week I put it on the car USB for a change. I've just listened to the 4th in the car on the way to and from work today and it's a really exciting performance. Looking forward to reacquainting myself with this often overlooked cycle.

Ps. Your other picks of Walter (both mono and stereo cycles) and Ozawa are great too. You're on your own with Stoki tho. Lol


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## Heck148

Simplicissimus said:


> ...... The "processing" for the LPs and non-remastered CDs is not good, I agree. Some of these recent Sony remasterings like these and Mahler's 10th just blow me away with tremendous sound quality.


Philadelphia sounded great during those years, even if the programming had gotten increasingly stale under the aging Ormandy....the Mahler 10 is really superb, so is the Prokofieff #6....the orchestra thrived on the challenge of new, or less often performed works.


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## Heck148

Knorf said:


> Hurwitz is an imbecile, and mercilessly and uninformedly slags numerous superb recordings. His reviews are best left unread. Certainly do not let him persuade you to dislike something you like!


I rarely, if ever, read Hurwitz....he's either ebulliently enthusiastic, or vitriolic and scathing....he's ok when he agrees with me!! LOL!!


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## Merl

Heck148 said:


> I rarely, if ever, read Hurwitz....he's either ebulliently enthusiastic, or vitriolic and scathing....he's ok when he agrees with me!! LOL!!


Hurwitz loves Ormandy / Philly recordings on the whole.


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## wkasimer

Merl said:


> Hurwitz loves Ormandy / Philly recordings on the whole.


Hurwitz just did a YouTube on complete Brahms sets:






His top choice was Jochum (either). He only considered sets on which he thought all four symphonies were well done, which eliminated some pretty famous names (e.g. Toscanini and Furtwangler). IIRC, other sets that he favored were van Beinum/RCO, Levine (either, although he slightly prefers the CSO set), Walter/NYPO, Karajan's 70's set, Klemperer/Philharmonia, Sanderling/Dresden, Dorati/LSO/MSO, and Solti/CSO.


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## Merl

wkasimer said:


> Hurwitz just did a YouTube on complete Brahms sets:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> His top choice was Jochum (either). He only considered sets on which he thought all four symphonies were well done, which eliminated some pretty famous names (e.g. Toscanini and Furtwangler). IIRC, other sets that he favored were van Beinum/RCO, Levine (either, although he slightly prefers the CSO set), Walter/NYPO, Karajan's 70's set, Klemperer/Philharmonia, Sanderling/Dresden, Dorati/LSO/MSO, and Solti/CSO.


I'm just off to watch that now. Even though you spoiled it for me, Wkasimer.


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## wkasimer

Merl said:


> I'm just off to watch that now. Even though you spoiled it for me, Wkasimer.


I'm sure that I forgot one or two. In fact, I remember at least one, so I won't spoil the surprise...


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## flamencosketches

Thoughts on the Szell/Cleveland Brahms cycle, reissued on Sony's Essential Classics series? I have the opportunity to get the whole thing for $6 with shipping included, but do I need another Brahms cycle?


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## realdealblues

flamencosketches said:


> Thoughts on the Szell/Cleveland Brahms cycle, reissued on Sony's Essential Classics series? I have the opportunity to get the whole thing for $6 with shipping included, but do I need another Brahms cycle?


Some people find it a little stiff. I don't think it's that bad. It's not my favorite, but for $6 I think it's worth having.


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## Animal the Drummer

It's certainly far from bad. Personally I find the performances a little bit penny-plain, but the Clevelanders are their usual impeccable selves and that's some deal in terms of simple value for money.


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## sbmonty

This arrived a little while ago. Nicely packaged. I'm going to spend time with it later today. I've been doing a little survey of Brahms' Symphony No. 3 these past few days.


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## Heck148

flamencosketches said:


> Thoughts on the Szell/Cleveland Brahms cycle, reissued on Sony's Essential Classics series? I have the opportunity to get the whole thing for $6 with shipping included, but do I need another Brahms cycle?


It's good...not my favorite, but there is some wonderful music-making, for $6 you can hardly lose...


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## Animal the Drummer

sbmonty said:


> This arrived a little while ago. Nicely packaged. I'm going to spend time with it later today. I've been doing a little survey of Brahms' Symphony No. 3 these past few days.


No.3 is my favourite of the four by some distance. Please post your findings on here when you're done.


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## TwoFlutesOneTrumpet

The sets I come back to the most are

Abbado/BPO
Solti/CSO
Rattle/BPO

I love Walter's with CSO but I find the sound quality annoys me; I am especially irritated by harsh and strident massed violins.

I have ordered the Levine/CSO set and can't wait to hear it.


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## realdealblues

TwoFlutesOneTrumpet said:


> I have ordered the Levine/CSO set and can't wait to hear it.


Hope you enjoy it. It's my favorite cycle.


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## Merl

realdealblues said:


> Hope you enjoy it. It's my favorite cycle.


Me too. Dohnanyi (Cleveland) is due an outing soon, too. Not played it in ages and its a great cycle. Btw, $6 for Szell is a good deal. Its much better than some people give it credit for. There are better sets out there but its very well played and I doubt anyone buying it would be disappointed with it.


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## juliante

Any 21C recording of Brahms 3 people can recommend? Alsop has been mentioned here.


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## Lordgeous

My favourite Symph 1 is still Cantelli's. Though in mono it still sounds fabulous: lovely Kingsway Hall acoustic and the Philharmonia at its glorioous best. Could I also mention Cantelli's Beethoven 7 which I just discovered. Everything about this seems just right, the Kingsway Hall acoustic, correct tempi, Philharmonia on blazing form - and a fabulous recording for its time - and in stereo! Both on YouTube.


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## Knorf

juliante said:


> Any 21C recording of Brahms 3 people can recommend? Alsop has been mentioned here.


I also like Chailly's Gewandhausorchester Brahms cycle very much. It's a classically-oriented approach, fleet tempi but never overly so, highly sprung and rhythmic, but still songful. Just not Wagnerian.

ETA: I agree with Merl about the Szell/Cleveland Brahms. It's excellent and is every bit worthy of inclusion on "best Brahms" lists.


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## Skakner

There are many choices for Brahms Symphonies, almost for every taste. I'd like to add Wand's cycle with NDR. A solid choice from a remarkable Brahms-ian and Bruckner-ian conductor.


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## TwoFlutesOneTrumpet

Merl said:


> Me too. Dohnanyi (Cleveland) is due an outing soon, too. Not played it in ages and its a great cycle. Btw, $6 for Szell is a good deal. Its much better than some people give it credit for. There are better sets out there but its very well played and I doubt anyone buying it would be disappointed with it.


Just listened to the Dohnanyi 1st. I think it's my favourite recording of the 1st right now. The timpani is so prominent throughout, maybe overly prominent for some, but I love it.
I also have Dohnanyi 2nd and 3rd on individual disks paired with the Tragic and Academic Festival overtures. I'll give these a listen soon. 
Given how much I enjoyed the 1st, I might just have to get the 4th as well, to complete the set.


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## CnC Bartok

This all reminds me I haven't listened to any Brahms in ages! 

But I'm going to agree with "imbecile" Hurwitz, and put Jochum top of the pile (the EMI set are more consistent and better recorded than the older mono DGG ones)


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## msr13

Merl said:


> Me too. Dohnanyi (Cleveland) is due an outing soon, too. Not played it in ages and its a great cycle. Btw, $6 for Szell is a good deal. Its much better than some people give it credit for. There are better sets out there but its very well played and I doubt anyone buying it would be disappointed with it.


i was just listening to the Dohnányi cycle with Cleveland today. It's great, lush, and the opening percussion of the first really rocks. Dohnányi was my first real exposure to the four, so maybe I'm biased. But I love these recordings. The Szell are of course, great as well. Qobuz (and I assume other streamers, as well) has them as high def and they sound so good.

i also really enjoy the Rattle recordings.


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## Rach Man

juliante said:


> Any 21C recording of Brahms 3 people can recommend? Alsop has been mentioned here.


Janowski's cycle with the Pittsburgh Symphony Orchestra is splendid and recorded in fabulous SACD sound (Pentatone). If you're looking for a great cycle in modern sound, give Janowski a listen.


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## Oldhoosierdude

The oft underrated Utah Symphony set is included here and back to it's original $.99. The only full set I currently own.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0080K3X4M/


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## wkasimer

Oldhoosierdude said:


> The oft underrated Utah Symphony set is included here and back to it's original $.99. The only full set I currently own.
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0080K3X4M/


A surprisingly good set - I recently found a used copy on CD.


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