# Greatest Composition of Juvenilia?



## scratchgolf (Nov 15, 2013)

There have been many child prodigies, from Mozart, thru Mendelssohn, and finally miss AD, who's been canonized while still living and playing with My Little Ponies. The term "Juvenilia" describes art oriented works written in youth, but no clear guidelines exist for age. Some poets have works of juvenilia written at age 18. Given this, I'll set the bar at 22, since that was the age Schubert wrote his piano quintet. Not to mention, Schubert had completed his 9th Symphony at the age of 28. At that same age, Beethoven was writing his 2nd Symphony and a symphony-less Brahms was busy making a cuckhold of Robert Schumann. Just imagine if he'd............never mind. Spilled milk.

*Given these criteria and a rough starting point of >23, what do you consider to be the greatest composition of juvenilia?* There are no time frames as your answers can be from any era by any composer of classical/art music. Keep in mind that a work written by Composer A could be juvenilia at the age of 21 but Composer B may be fully developed and producing mature works at the same age. By definition, juvenilia describes works of youth that weren't really known until more established works were created and later digging uncovers younger works. Actually, I guess that kinda eliminates Alma. Then again, Schubert was somewhat established when he wrote The Trout. It just wasn't published until a year after his death. I guess it's not really fair to count it vs something Mozart wrote pre-teen. Either way, I'm looking for answers and hopefully recommendations too.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

The greatest true "juvenile" work I know of is Mendelssohn's String Octet, written at 16 -- and his Midsummer Night's Dream overture, written the following year. I suspect if he had passed away at that point, he'd be well-remembered today.


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## scratchgolf (Nov 15, 2013)

KenOC said:


> The greatest true "juvenile" work I know of is Mendelssohn's String Octet, written at 16 -- and his Midsummer Night's Dream overture, written the following year. I suspect if he had passed away at that point, he'd be well-remembered today.


Yes, agreed. The Octet and The Trout are both phenomenal works. Mendelssohn certainly had a head start but 16 is still more impressive than 22, for two works I consider nearly equals. They're both a little sugary too but that's to be expected in youth and certainly not detrimental.


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

I absolutely detest the term 'greatest' in any context as there is so much that is subjective. Having said that...

Bizet's _Symphony in C_ written at the age of 17 but not performed until 1935.
Erich Korngold whose first two operas were written at the age of 17. His most well known, _Die Tote Stadt_ barely misses the cutoff coming at at 23
Frederic Chopin whose _Piano Concerto #2_ was at the age of 20 (It is listed as the 2nd because of the publication order, not the composition order)

...and then there is a certain Frederik Magle...


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

For the record, Mozart's first "great" work (by many accounts) was his _Exsultate, Jubilate_, written at 17.


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## GreenMamba (Oct 14, 2012)

Heck, Mozart's Symphony 31 counts as juvenilia based on this definition. The five Violin Concertos as well.


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## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

Mendelssohn's Octet is a brilliant work, and I'd probably go for that if it wasn't for Erich Korngold's ludicrously assured Piano Trio op. 1 - written when he was 12/13. In fact, had he not written that then there are at least another three early compositions which are of near equal stature: the second Piano Sonata op. 2, the Sinfonietta op. 5 and the Violin Sonata op. 6 - all of which he'd composed by the ripe old age of 15.

Both Thomas Adès and Benjamin Britten hit the ground running with their early compositions but being near the end of their teens they were positively ancient compared to Korngold.


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## scratchgolf (Nov 15, 2013)

Becca said:


> I absolutely detest the term 'greatest' in any context as there is so much that is subjective. Having said that...
> 
> Bizet's _Symphony in C_ written at the age of 17 but not performed until 1935.
> Erich Korngold whose first two operas were written at the age of 17. His most well known, _Die Tote Stadt_ barely misses the cutoff coming at at 23
> ...


Greatest...........Post..............Ever!

Does that count? 

Great answers all. I'm familiar with the Korngold and Chopin. The Bizet is actually playing now. Thanks.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

I'll throw in Arriaga, who had written operas, a symphony, and some other stuff before he was 18. His quartets, written at about 18, are ridiculously good. But that was the end of things.


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## trazom (Apr 13, 2009)

GreenMamba said:


> Heck, Mozart's Symphony 31 counts as juvenilia based on this definition. The five Violin Concertos as well.


Those are great, there are a few others. I'll list them by age :

Age 16/17--The Exsultate Jubilate motet

Age 18/19- Symphony 25 and 29, violin concertos 3-5, his 5th piano concerto, the bassoon concerto, and his best chamber work by far at that age: his first string quintet(which is a huge step up in quality from the quartets he had recently just completed).

Age 20- One of his greatest sacred works that he wrote while still in Salzburg that few know about: 




Age 21--his greatest concert aria by this age 




also at 21--and then most say his earliest music peaks with the 9th piano concerto which gets the most praise: "Perhaps the first unequivocal masterpiece of the Classical Era," "Mozart's Eroica" etc..


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## scratchgolf (Nov 15, 2013)

trazom said:


> Those are great, there are a few others. I'll list them by age :
> 
> Age 16/17--The Exsultate Jubilate motet
> 
> ...


I knew you'd come through for me Traz. I'm not even close to reaching these works yet, but this will give me some great listening. I prefer working backwards with Mozart and haven't gone earlier than his 20th PC. I've actually mostly been listening to Schubert lately but I bought his complete works and have been reading and highlighting his Newbould Biography. Actually using more as a reference than just pastime. Really digging into the Lieder for the first real time. Erlkonig is my current fav. And speaking of Mozart's first 31 Symphonies, doesn't their complete run time equal 1 Mahler movement? Never mind. That's Haydn.


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

scratchgolf said:


> Greatest...........Post..............Ever!
> 
> Does that count?
> 
> Great answers all. I'm familiar with the Korngold and Chopin. The Bizet is actually playing now. Thanks.




When Nicholas Kenyon asked a conductor why Bizet's teenage Symphony in C was so rarely played, the response he got was "Because it's so f***ing difficult!"


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## Le Peel (May 15, 2015)

Not "greatest", but I listen to Mozart's first 5 piano concertos quite often. Once a month at least.


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## Norse (May 10, 2010)

Prokofiev's first two piano concerti qualifies, written when he was 20-22.


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## isorhythm (Jan 2, 2015)

Brahms wrote his B major piano trio when he was under 23. No one plays that version - they play the revision he did much later - but he obviously had some good ideas already.

His E flat minor Scherzo, written when he was 19, is also pretty good.

With Mozart, I think you have to make the age cutoff 16, or it's not fair.


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## QuietGuy (Mar 1, 2014)

Debussy's melodie "Beau Soir" at 16 and his "Symphony in b minor" at 18. 



 They might not be his "greatest" juvenalia, but they certainly are good.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

I'll say these, the first six written when he was 12, the rest 2 years later.


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