# Competition: Piano and Violin



## Crudblud

Having become a little tired of the wishy washy back and forth "by committee" way of doing things, I decided to start a plain and simple competition on my own. This is not meant as an affront to the people who have put in effort to organise those other competitions, more an experiment to see if this direct approach works better. Whether or not I run more of these will depend on how much attention this one attracts, there'd be no point in doing another if I am to be the only entrant, but I thought it would be interesting to just throw this out there and see what happens. To hopefully maximise interest I have chosen a popular combination: piano and violin, commonly used in the violin sonata, and most likely you will all be familiar with some works in that genre. So, if you decide to enter I hope you have fun working on your piece, and I look forward to hearing your entry.

The requirements are as follows:


Entries must be written for piano and violin. 
Entries must be a minimum of three minutes' duration, and *absolutely no longer than 10 minutes*. 
You may adhere to a strict form or style if you wish, but none is required. 
*Realism as pertains to the physical instruments in question is encouraged*. For instance: try to avoid writing five note chords for the violin or Nancarrow style canons for the piano. 
*Entries must be submitted as an audio file*, preferably formatted in mp3 for its reasonable file size and relative universality. I know this may seem obvious, but I think it's worth mentioning just in case someone tries to submit a MIDI file. The problem with MIDI files is that people will hear them through whatever sound library they happen to have as default on their media player, thus the sound will be different for perhaps not everyone, but certainly different to that of your score writer or DAW. I know a lot of people find stock/cheap MIDI sounds embarrassing to use in their work, but *uniformity is better than professional sound quality* in this instance. 
Scores are not required. 

Entries are to be submitted no later than 00:00 BST / 18:00 CDT on Saturday, June 21st, one month from now. You may submit your entry in this thread any time between now and the deadline. Feel free to ask questions, discuss entries, make predictions or whatever floats your boat in this thread. There will be a separate thread for voting once the submission phase is closed.


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## musicrom

Thanks Crudblud! Hopefully people will be fine with this. I will definitely participate. Do you want to just make this competition part of the series, or should I still go on with mine? I think it would be easier to have one contest at a time.

Just a question: MuseScore does not allow you to save compositions as mp3 files, so the only possibilities I have are pretty much MIDI and .wav. I never knew that MIDI can sound different on different computers. Is .wav an acceptable file type?


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## Crudblud

Thanks for your interest, musicrom! It would be easier to have one competition at a time, certainly, but that doesn't mean you should stop organising the next one. I apologise for jumping the gun, but I thought it was worth trying something like this out.

As for your questions: MIDI is like piano roll, simply a set of instructions, the end result will differ depending on the equipment (or software in this case) used to play it back.

The problem with submitting WAV here is that it's an uncompressed format so the files are quite large, mp3 is a much more "portable" option, and I imagine people would rather download a ~10MB .mp3 than a ~60MB .wav. A fairly quick and easy solution is to get Audacity and install the LAME mp3 codec, both of which are free. That way you can export a .wav from MuseScore, load it in Audacity and convert to mp3. It'll be much quicker to upload and to download.


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## ricardo_jvc6

I'll be out of this one. I would participate if there were other instrument choices without being violin but good luck!

Cheers,

Ricardo Castro


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## Vasks

and I should be in...LOL.... I say "should" because I vividly remember 4 years ago entering a paid contest and a few days before the deadline that I thought I would make, my computer totally died. Lost the entrance fee and had nothing to show for it.


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## juergen

How about a _real_ competition. For harpsichord:

http://historicalkeyboardsociety.org/competitions/alienor-competition/call-for-scores/

Deadline is October 1. The competition is open for everyone.

Have a go!


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## musicrom

I like my piece so far, although I'm not too far into it. I'm having some trouble writing for the piano part.


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## Vasks

musicrom said:


> i like my piece so far, although i'm not too far into it. I'm having some trouble writing for the piano part.


keep going!!!!!!!!!!


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## Vasks

OK, so how do I post an mp3?


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## Crudblud

My piece is going dreadfully bad, and by "piece" I mean a bunch of minute-long fragments which are complete rubbish. I'm currently stepping back and listening to music for piano and violin in an attempt to get some idea of how to balance the instruments better.

@Vasks: Clicking "Go Advanced" under the posting box brings up a bunch of options. On the top row, next to the smiley face, there's an icon of a paperclip, clicking on that will bring up the attachments interface, from there you can select your file and upload it directly to TC, it will appear as part of your post.


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## Aramis

If it's up to 21 I can give it a try, but I must confess I would recycle some older, abandoned stuff for my entry rather than write something all new.


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## Vasks

Aramis said:


> If it's up to 21 I can give it a try, but I must confess I would recycle some older, abandoned stuff for my entry rather than write something all new.


_pssst....mine is a rescoring of a movement I wrote a few months ago....but don't tell anyone....it'll be our secret_


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## Vasks

Here's a 3 minute ditty I call "*Half-baked Habanera with Merengue in the Middle*"

View attachment Habanera .mp3


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## musicrom

Vasks said:


> keep going!!!!!!!!!!


Well... no way I'm going to match that. ^^^

I'll try my best to finish my composition in time anyways.


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## Crudblud

*Aha!* etc.

View attachment 01 - Compressed Burlesque.mp3


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## Crudblud

I think the main weakness of my entry is the transition from the slow waltz back into the "main theme".


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## ricardo_jvc6

I'm still working on the piece and I can show you a quick preview of the Intro part without strings yet, I'm not sure If I'll finish it in time... oh and btw I don't have any good String VST's.

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2738795/Gnossiene in Eb Majeur - Slow City Rain.wav


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## Vasks

Crudblud said:


> I think the main weakness of my entry is the transition from the slow waltz back into the "main theme".


Almost all pieces, with some masterpieces being the exception, have "weaknesses". Oddly enough what you or I perceive as the weak spots of our works may not be viewed so by others. Therefore, I never verbalize on any spots I fret about. Once the piece is "out there" it's up to others decide on strengths and weaknesses.


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## Crudblud

Vasks said:


> Almost all pieces, with some masterpieces being the exception, have "weaknesses". Oddly enough what you or I perceive as the weak spots of our works may not be viewed so by others. Therefore, I never verbalize on any spots I fret about. Once the piece is "out there" it's up to others decide on strengths and weaknesses.


I disagree, I think the composer is no less valid in making observations about their work than the audience, and I also value the idea of dialogue between composer and audience. Of course, I also think that's a nonsensical dividing line, when a piece is "finished" the composer in listening is just as much an audience as anyone else. In any case, my actual intention of encouraging more activity in this thread appears to have been successful.


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## Crudblud

Please ignore the file I posted on the previous page. I have cleaned up some serious problems I had with the mix. This new one is much better balanced, less spiky and not stupidly loud. I'll have to make a note, in case I decide to do this again, to say right off the bat that people can change or edit and then resubmit their entries provided they do it before the deadline. Sorry for any confusion caused.


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## Crudblud

Just a reminder that there is now little over a week before the competition will be closed to submissions. If you are still planning to enter, make sure you submit before the deadline (see the OP), and good luck.

Edit: I just realised there is a mistake in the OP, it should say Saturday, not Thursday.


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## mmsbls

I corrected the deadline day to Saturday, June 21st.


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## Matsps

I will probably submit something, but it will be quite last minute (prob Friday).


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## musicrom

Matsps said:


> I will probably submit something, but it will be quite last minute (prob Friday).


Same. I've kind of been putting off my composition, mostly due to a lack of ideas, but also out of laziness.


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## PetrB

musicrom said:


> Same. I've kind of been putting off my composition, mostly due to a lack of ideas, but also out of laziness.


"Inspiration exists, but it has to find you working." ~ Picasso.

Choose a handful of notes, work them up into something. You can always change them.


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## BurningDesire

My piece is yet again fitting into a pan-diatonic, impressionistic language.


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## SottoVoce

I was going to try this time around, but I work very slow. I'm astonished some can finish a piece after a month, let alone it be good enough to post it to the forum; and I work every day. Very excited to seeing others' work.


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## Crudblud

SottoVoce said:


> I was going to try this time around, but I work very slow. I'm astonished some can finish a piece after a month, let alone it be good enough to post it to the forum; and I work every day. Very excited to seeing others' work.


That's too bad, it seems like the overall turnout will be fairly small. In case I do this again, and I would like to, would you be interested if you had more time to work with? I was worried the deadline I set for this competition would turn some people off, so if people would be interested in another competition with a less immediate deadline, I'll definitely keep that in mind.


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## PetrB

Crudblud said:


> That's too bad, it seems like the overall turnout will be fairly small. In case I do this again, and I would like to, would you be interested if you had more time to work with? I was worried the deadline I set for this competition would turn some people off, so if people would be interested in another competition with a less immediate deadline, I'll definitely keep that in mind.


Whatever a composer's M.O. I think -- since T.C. competitions and its entrants are not 'real-life' accept a commission with a one month deadline _because you are a full-time composer and that is your job,_ that two months for even a short piece is more realistic.

With two months, though, considering a certain again not-real life aspect, I wonder if a virtual competition would sustain interest for two months on this forum -- and how many members compose but know full well what they do is rough -- because they are at near beginner, or they do it occasionally as a hobby.

I don't think any TC comp competition is going to net a lot of entrants.


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## Crudblud

PetrB said:


> Whatever a composer's M.O. I think -- since T.C. competitions and its entrants are not 'real-life' accept a commission with a one month deadline _because you are a full-time composer and that is your job,_ that two months for even a short piece is more realistic.
> 
> With two months, though, considering a certain again not-real life aspect, I wonder if a virtual competition would sustain interest for two months on this forum -- and how many members compose but know full well what they do is rough -- because they are at near beginner, or they do it occasionally as a hobby.
> 
> I don't think any TC comp competition is going to net a lot of entrants.


All good points. In my view a competition is a good way to structure an invitation for a composer, new or veteran, to challenge themselves and learn from the experience, the voting is honestly neither here nor there for me, simply a logical end to the process. The format is not only useful for learning, but a good way to have people commit to finishing a piece within a given time frame. I have noticed a lot of posts here consist of work in progress, the composer asking for advice, and much of the time it's a result of them thinking big beyond their current abilities, so to specify limitations also helps them feel that out, e.g.: was it too easy, too hard, challenging yet comfortable to complete the entry, was the end result tight or sloppy etc.

It's probably true that I am expecting too much, but I still think the challenge and learning aspects of the process are valuable, not just for me but every composer here.


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## PetrB

Crudblud said:


> All good points. In my view a competition is a good way to structure an invitation for a composer, new or veteran, to challenge themselves and learn from the experience, the voting is honestly neither here nor there for me, simply a logical end to the process. The format is not only useful for learning, but a good way to have people commit to finishing a piece within a given time frame. I have noticed a lot of posts here consist of work in progress, the composer asking for advice, and much of the time it's a result of them thinking big beyond their current abilities, so to specify limitations also helps them feel that out, e.g.: was it too easy, too hard, challenging yet comfortable to complete the entry, was the end result tight or sloppy etc.
> 
> It's probably true that I am expecting too much, but I still think the challenge and learning aspects of the process are valuable, not just for me but every composer here.


I wholly agree the experience is not only valuable, _but possibly invaluable._

Too, that ilk of younger / beginning composer who try to make pieces which are far too ambitious in scale and length could really benefit from signing up for piece with a requirement of being for but a few instruments and of a brief length.

I know from experience some type of deadline, self-imposed or voluntarily agreed upon, can truly help those who agonize too much from note to note about any of their choices -- both micro and macro -- which is not a beneficial part of learning to finish a piece, lol.

My most pertinent mention, I think, was the shorter time from posted announcement to deadline. Most participants are busy with _something else,_ whether it is work, other projects, relationships, etc.

While I work so slowly and am so reticent to present that I may never get around to competing or posting anything in Today's Composers, experience tells me that calling the deadline at two months is not too liberal a time period. I think these competitions might net more takers if the deadlines for these shorter 'simpler' works were two months, not much less.


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## musicrom

I just realized another (significant) reason for my procrastination - whenever I'm on the computer, I'm listening to music, and it's impossible to write music while listening to music.


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## PetrB

musicrom said:


> I just realized another (significant) reason for my procrastination - whenever I'm on the computer, I'm listening to music, and it's impossible to write music while listening to music.


Funny that. I had a time period while in conservatory and a bit after where I had nothing in the way of reproductive equipment (had discs, no player) and had to rely on either playing the piano or improvising / comping if I wanted music in my home at all. I kept to that set of conditions, or rules, during my later studies venture when I did the theory & comp. Without, you get more than a little hungry, and will then be more impelled to provide for yourself what would have come from player, internet, radio.

Besides, _it is soooooo much easier to listen to any other music than to play someone's already written music or to write your own_. Back away from Youtube, Spotify, etc. _and get to work!_ (Or back away from the computer entirely -- all that of which is a bit like the pot calling the kettle black


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## SottoVoce

Crudblud said:


> All good points. In my view a competition is a good way to structure an invitation for a composer, new or veteran, to challenge themselves and learn from the experience, the voting is honestly neither here nor there for me, simply a logical end to the process. The format is not only useful for learning, but a good way to have people commit to finishing a piece within a given time frame. I have noticed a lot of posts here consist of work in progress, the composer asking for advice, and much of the time it's a result of them thinking big beyond their current abilities, so to specify limitations also helps them feel that out, e.g.: was it too easy, too hard, challenging yet comfortable to complete the entry, was the end result tight or sloppy etc.
> 
> It's probably true that I am expecting too much, but I still think the challenge and learning aspects of the process are valuable, not just for me but every composer here.


Agreed. I also find it a good way to not, as you mentioned before, make this forum completely an advertising ground. More communication and activity around the forum would be nice; it practically is the only community we have, since most of us do not get performances.


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## Op.123

Am I allowed to post mine on soundcloud?


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## Crudblud

Burroughs said:


> Am I allowed to post mine on soundcloud?


It's preferable that you post it as an attachment here for the sake of uniformity. Although this thread is intended more as learning experience than out and out contest, the competition format was chosen specifically because it provides a rigid structure to the proceedings, and in fact this is also relevant to teaching compliance with commission specifications.


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## Vasks

Crudblud said:


> this is also relevant to teaching compliance with commission specifications.


Yep. Real life composition contests/"call for scores"/etc lay out very specific requirements for the pieces and the submission of them. And if you think they'll let you slide by ignoring even one of those requirements at all then think again, as your submission will never even get looked at since hundreds of other composers did meet the rules to a "T".

Now should we at TC be that rigid? IDK


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## EdwardBast

Here is an entry which I finished yesterday. Wish the samples were better or that there were real players available. But out where I live I am just happy to have internet service.

View attachment Nightmusic.mp3


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## BurningDesire

My piece is just about finished :3


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## BurningDesire

EdwardBast said:


> Here is an entry which I finished yesterday. Wish the samples were better or that there were real players available. But out where I live I am just happy to have internet service.
> 
> View attachment 44811


I really like this music  who are your influences? Have you studied composition with a teacher?


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## BurningDesire

Well here we go. This is a piece called _Raindrops_. I hope you enjoy it ^_^

View attachment Raindrops vers.mp3


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## Crudblud

Thanks for joining us, EdwardBast and BD, it's good to have both of you here!

Also, a reminder that the thread will be closed to submissions from tomorrow morning, if you are still entering make sure you get your piece posted here in time.


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## EdwardBast

BurningDesire said:


> I really like this music  who are your influences? Have you studied composition with a teacher?


Thank you!

I had composition lessons for a semester while studying theory and musicology. I've had practical courses in counterpoint (modal and tonal), have studied extended tonal counterpoint on my own (writing fugues and such), and orchestration. I'm not sure I could say anything meaningful about influences. The heart of my musical pleasure zone includes, in no particular order, music by Prokofiev, Bartok, Shostakovich, Scnittke, Britten, Debussy, Stravinsky, King Crimson, Frank Zappa - but I don't think my music sounds particularly like any of them(?) I've analyzed lots of music from all eras, so I guess it's possible I've been influenced by everything.


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## musicrom

I'm not sure if I'll be able to submit my composition. I have over two minutes, so if I have enough time tomorrow, I may be able to post it. I don't really have many ideas at the moment to add to the composition either. 

Also, that Audacity link (esp. the second one) looks kind of shady. I downloaded the first one, but it wouldn't convert MuseScore to MP3, and I don't really know that I want to download the second one...


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## KenOC

musicrom said:


> I'm not sure if I'll be able to submit my composition. I have over two minutes, so if I have enough time tomorrow, I may be able to post it. I don't really have many ideas at the moment to add to the composition either.


Beethoven was *years* late with the Missa Solemnis. You're in good company.


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## EdwardBast

musicrom said:


> Also, that Audacity link (esp. the second one) looks kind of shady. I downloaded the first one, but it wouldn't convert MuseScore to MP3, and I don't really know that I want to download the second one...


I think Audacity exports WAV files. One could then import the WAV file to iTunes (or something similar) where it is possible to convert the WAV file to an mp3.


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## KenOC

Audacity exports the current project in any of several formats, WAV and MP3 among them. Download source is:

http://audacity.sourceforge.net/


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## Crudblud

Well, thanks to everyone who entered, we are now closed to submissions. There'll be a voting thread up soon.


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## Crudblud

So, now the dust has settled, I was wondering if any entrants (and anyone else who is interested) would like to discuss their pieces? I'll have a go at picking apart my entry.

_Compressed Burlesque_ is rather conventional compared to my work of the past two years. It has a pretty small pool of basic materials and fewer diversions than I usually allow. The opening chord sequence is frequently repeated in various guises, ranging from a 5/8 riff (first appearing at 0'16") to a sort of cheesy '80s pop/rock progression (2'00" - 2'20"). After the '80s section, the piece appears to break down and go off on a tangent, what actually occurs here is the opening violin melody inverted on the piano, then played backwards with the 5/8 riff on top of it, while the violin provides a sort of percussive pizzicato following the rhythms of both the melody and the riff.

The second theme on the violin is the second most common element after the opening chord sequence. It appears in many mutations, which were developed in reverse order to how they appear in the piece, and the first appearance starting at 0'42" is actually the final development. In the '80s section, this melody is related to the first version of the second theme appearing at 3'02", but is combined with the piano part in that section also, then tapered to fit the '80s progression.

The main diversions are the slow waltz at 1'09" and the section from 2'55" - 3'01". Neither of these really has anything to do with the rest of the piece, they were just things that intuitively fit the moment for me, although the latter is kind of a play on the "burlesque" idea, a sort of sideways nod to the American burlesque while the rest of the piece concerns more the original meaning. Speaking of which, what's the subject of this burlesque? Various things, but in the main I had this kind of mutated version of Stravinsky's _Violin Concerto_ in my head, and the first violin melody made me think of Jimmy Buffet for some reason, even though this sounds nothing like the gloriously titled _Cheeseburger in Paradise_ or any other songs of his that I'm aware of. In general, the piece does not have much of anything in common with its inspirations, but the title still seemed to make sense to me.

None of this is probably interesting to anyone but I felt like writing about it so there you go.


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