# Rattle's Beethoven!



## kanishknishar (Aug 10, 2015)

A wonderful evening to y'all TC folks :tiphat:!
I don't know if you have heard about it but Berliner Philharmoniker Records is releasing a new set of Beethoven's symphonies under Sir Simon Rattle conducting Berlin Philharmonic Orchestra_ (I know some of you are reading this and telling yourself, "*sigh* Again? Do we need another? I'm sick of hearing the Nine", in which case, I would tell you that: a) It's Rattle, so he's probably going to be doing something new and perhaps eccentric with the works like his VPO set can attest. b) It's in studio quality. So the sound will be glorious.)_ 

Any views?

Have you heard Rattle's set of Beethoven's symphonies with Wiener Philharmoniker?:

I, myself, will be going on a six-month Beethoven "fast" after I finish hearing Karajan's remaining renditons from his '80s set of Beethoven's symphonies. And then finally sometime in October hear this set. I'm still excited even thought the occasion is very far away. :lol:
*
What opinion do you hold of Rattle as a musician, a conductor, as an educator and finally as a person?*


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## dieter (Feb 26, 2016)

Herrenvolk said:


> A wonderful evening to y'all TC folks :tiphat:!
> I don't know if you have heard about it but Berliner Philharmoniker Records is releasing a new set of Beethoven's symphonies under Sir Simon Rattle conducting Berlin Philharmonic Orchestra_ (I know some of you are reading this and telling yourself, "*sigh* Again? Do we need another? I'm sick of hearing the Nine", in which case, I would tell you that: a) It's Rattle, so he's probably going to be doing something new and perhaps eccentric with the works like his VPO set can attest. b) It's in studio quality. So the sound will be glorious.)_
> 
> Any views?
> ...


I have not one recording of Rattle - except for the reconstructed finale of the Bruckner 9 - that I rate. He's a show pony, borne aloft by the British Musical Press in the late 80's.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Does the Jazz album count ?
Other then that, Mahler 2 / Porgy and Bess and a recording with Cécile Ousset piano concerto by Liszt and Saint-Seans


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Just what the world needs now. Another Beethoven symphony set.

How creative!


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## Bayreuth (Jan 20, 2015)

I will check it out when it comes out, but I'm not really looking forward to it. I own several recordings by Rattle and I can't say that I love any of them. Maybe Petrushka is my favorite. Still, a new Beethoven cycle performed by a top orchestra is always good news


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## Bayreuth (Jan 20, 2015)

Pugg said:


> Does the Jazz album count ?
> Other then that, Mahler 2 / Porgy and Bess and a recording with Cécile Ousset piano concerto by Liszt and Saint-Seans


I recall having read in... Gramophone?? (not sure) that a performance of Mahler's Second Symphony by Rattle with the BPO was the very best recording of this symphony ever made (which, honestly, surprised me quite a bit).

Is this recording the one you have, Pugg? Is it really THAT good??


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Bayreuth said:


> I recall having read in... Gramophone?? (not sure) that a performance of Mahler's Second Symphony by Rattle with the BPO was the very best recording of this symphony ever made (which, honestly, surprised me quite a bit).
> 
> Is this recording the one you have, Pugg? Is it really THAT good??


The one I have is not wit the Berliner, mine is the first one with City of Birmingham orchestra .


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## chesapeake bay (Aug 3, 2015)

When I have been able to compare Rattle vs another top conductor I always prefer the other conductor, if that helps 
Maybe you could check out Chaillys relatively recent Beethoven symphony's with the Gewandhausorchester, hes using Beethoven's tempo markings so they are faster than other comtemporary recordings.


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## Richard8655 (Feb 19, 2016)

The guy's a little too animated and pretentiously showy when watching him conduct. I'm sure the Berlin Philharmonic encourages this as often their performances are over the top to me. Haven't formed a complete music opinion yet, though.


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## kanishknishar (Aug 10, 2015)

Pugg said:


> The one I have is not wit the Berliner, mine is the first one with City of Birmingham orchestra .


How's the CBSO recording?



dieter said:


> I have not one recording of Rattle - except for the reconstructed finale of the Bruckner 9 - that I rate. He's a *show pony*, borne aloft by the British Musical Press in the late 80's.


And Solti, Karajan, Ormandy, Bernstein, Szell, Harnoncourt, Hogwood, Toscanini, Maazel, Davis and Kleiber weren't? Nonsense. They were always marketed aggresively by their respective recording company(ies). Honestly, how would you know anything about Rattle if you've heard only one recording?



Pugg said:


> Does the Jazz album count ?
> Other then that, Mahler 2 / Porgy and Bess and a recording with Cécile Ousset piano concerto by Liszt and Saint-Seans


How was the Liszt/Saint-Saens recording, Mr. Pugg?



hpowders said:


> Just what the world needs now. Another Beethoven symphony set.
> 
> How creative!


I agree wholeheartedly but even I would've not taken notice of yet _another _Beethoven set had it not been of Rattle's. Besides, do what I did: Take a 6 month break from Beethoven's symphonies and hear the Rattle set [if you skip the 9th, I won't blame you ]



Bayreuth said:


> I recall having read in... Gramophone?? (not sure) that a performance of Mahler's Second Symphony by Rattle with the BPO was the very best recording of this symphony ever made (which, honestly, surprised me quite a bit).
> 
> Is this recording the one you have, Pugg? Is it really THAT good??


Rest assured, Mr. Bayreuth, that Gramophone must _never _be trusted for English artists and orchestras. LSO is the "greatest" orchestra of the world. Elgar was the "finest" composer of the 20th Century, etc. They are always exaggerated opinions. Everything British is the finest. Davis' Haydn is the best in the market. His Bruckner is "pretty good" [yikes! No.]


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## Weston (Jul 11, 2008)

I only have Rattle's Mahler Symphonies 3 and 5. They seem okay, but with Mahler so far I've been focused on just enduring the beasts to the end. I have no other performances to compare. I've seen interviews with Rattle and he seems interesting enough. I've never quite understood the anti-Rattle Rabble.


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## MarkW (Feb 16, 2015)

I have only heard a couple of Rattle Beethoven movements on the radio -- and they seemed to me to have nothing to do with what Beethoven would have intended.


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## kanishknishar (Aug 10, 2015)

Weston said:


> I only have Rattle's Mahler Symphonies 3 and 5. They seem okay, but with Mahler so far I've been focused on just enduring the beasts to end. I have no other performances to compare. I've seen interviews with Rattle and he seems interesting enough. I've never quite understood the anti-Rattle Rabble.


Neither have I, Mr. Weston. The more curious thing about the cult is that none of them seem to have any reason or rational for their vehemence against the man. They seem to be more simply blindly following the herd which may have been started by a few who really disliked his interpretation. Also, _not _a good idea to start with Rattle's Mahler. It's good but there are many better out there.

For M5, have you tried Bernstein/NYPO or VPO? Or maybe if you want to be blown away - Tennstedt's live recordings? Not Karajan though, not for starters. Perhaps, Boulez if you feel that you don't want to be emotionally exhausted or don't like your Mahler to be too emotionally carried away in the moment. And if you don't mind watching:








MarkW said:


> I have only heard a couple of Rattle Beethoven movements on the radio -- and they seemed to me to have nothing to do with what Beethoven would have intended.


And why do you say that? Have you picked up a score to compare? And besides some of our most treasured sets don't adhere closely or even close to what Beethoven wrote. Karajan's set is widely praised but he takes many artistic liberties - and it sounds glorious! Unless you're telling me that you listen _exclusively _to Hogwood/Gardiner/Harnoncourt/Zinman sets. In which case, you seem a little too tight and need to remember music is also about what the artist can bring to the scores. Would you disagree, sir?


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## cliftwood (Apr 17, 2014)

I recently attended an HD performance of the Berlin Philharmonic playing an all Beethoven program, including the rehearsal of all of the nine symphonies, and the complete 4th and 7th symphonies. Rattle was enlightening, charming and informative in his commentary on these works and his conducting of the two symphonies was sterling. 

The orchestra was at the top of their form and Rattle, flamboyant or not, led them in a very satisfying performance. 

I think he generally gets a very bad rap as a conductor.


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## AndorFoldes (Aug 25, 2012)

I just listened to the samples provided on the website. Here is my initial reaction:

A new Beethoven cycle by the Berlin Philharmonic is always a significant event. Unfortunately I could not find the track times, so no indication about the observation of repeats.

The packaging looks extremely clever and will be hard to fit in an ordinary CD shelf. Single discs might be an attractive option, but these days it is probably all or nothing if you want a physical product.

The sound quality is excellent, the timpani is crystal clear. In the third movements of symphonies nos. 1 and 3 I heard some odd rhythms. Perhaps this is to be expected from Rattle?

The fifth symphony is surprisingly good, and sounds luxurious and bold.

At times it sounds too light, like a Porsche not being driven to its limit, and some of the tempi are brisk. But all in all it sounds good, not a disappointment like the recent cycle by Chailly.

Of course this evaluation is only based on samples, but it is hard to imagine these works being done better by anybody else right now.

Why do some people have a problem with Rattle you ask? Well, this is certainly one reason. This set could be his opportunity to redeem himself.


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## ProudSquire (Nov 30, 2011)

I don't have any opinion of Rattle as a musician, educator or a person, only as a conductor. That's as far as I know about the man. From what I've heard/seen, I'd say his conducting doesn't terribly make me want to avoid him. I don't own any recordings by the man, I've only familiarized myself with him through _Berlin Philharmonic's_ YouTube channel, where they post various spinets of him in action, and of course, via the various and plenty videos of Rattle uploaded to YouTube courtesy of the lovely and invaluable youtubers!

I think I need more time with Rattle before I can come to an absolute conclusion about him as a conductor. But for know there are plenty of people who find him enjoyable (just a supposition on my part) and appreciate what he does. I wish him lots of success and hope hat the continues to develop and become the conductor that he ultimately wants to be.


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

I have been watching and listening to Rattle since he was in his late 20s and was a principal guest conductor with the Los Angeles Philharmonic when Carlo Maria Giulini was the MD. I won't pretend that I have liked everything I have heard by him but his success rate, in my estimation, has been quite high. More so than some other frequent LA conductors and MDs. As with most other conductors, he does have areas in which he does notably well. One particularly, which has been a source of some contention in Berlin, is his constant championing of contemporary music so I am surprised that he isn't more loved by our TC modern music champions.

One thing that I do like about him is his open and easy going personality coupled with an ability to get what he wants and he doesn't take himself too seriously. Towards the end of a recent documentary about him, he tells the story of how someone said (approx. quote) "You know Simon, the really great conductors don't start becoming great until they get into their 60s ... and you are no different!"

If you haven't watched the TV series 'Leaving Home' * which is about 20th century developments in music, and which he did about 25 years ago, I suggest that you do. It is all available on YouTube.

* It includes a segment of him rehearsing and performing parts of Stockhausen's _Gruppen_. One of the other conductors was a very young Daniel Harding.


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## MarkW (Feb 16, 2015)

Herrenvolk said:


> And why do you say that? Have you picked up a score to compare? And besides some of our most treasured sets don't adhere closely or even close to what Beethoven wrote. Karajan's set is widely praised but he takes many artistic liberties - and it sounds glorious! Unless you're telling me that you listen _exclusively _to Hogwood/Gardiner/Harnoncourt/Zinman sets. In which case, you seem a little too tight and need to remember music is also about what the artist can bring to the scores. Would you disagree, sir?


Well, I did say "seemed _to me_."

First, I'm not a HIP snob, and I'm old enough to have heard many recordings/performances and done more than casually glance at scores.

Second this was long enough ago that I don't remember which Rattle performances they were, but I suspect BPO. (As gorgeously as they play, the VPO generally do not do virtuosity for its own sake.) And, as often happens with the radio, I listened and formed judgments without knowing the artists involved until I looked it up later on the station web site.

I don't remember details now, but the first movement of the Ninth was just weird to my ears, and not in an educational way. But the Scherzo of the Fifth included a Trio at a "Look at me go!" tempo that I have never heard before and that Beethoven could never have dreamed would ever be possible. I'm a long-time appreciator of Beethoven's humor, and this tripping double bass dance, aside from imagining the look of terror on the bass players' faces, must have prompted deserved smiles on the faces of many audience members when essayed on the instruments used at the time -- and probably sounded fairly awkward if not completely awful. And I'm sure Beethoven expected little more. That's what I meant above about virtuosity for its own sake.


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## kanishknishar (Aug 10, 2015)

MarkW said:


> Well, I did say "seemed _to me_."
> 
> First, I'm not a HIP snob, and I'm old enough to have heard many recordings/performances and done more than casually glance at scores.
> 
> ...


Honestly, Beethoven's Tempi can sometimes be too fast for humans to play - too fast really. It's superhuman expectation. And it sounds butchered. Listen to Leibowitz or Roger "Speed=Greatness" Norrington!


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## kanishknishar (Aug 10, 2015)

Becca said:


> I have been watching and listening to Rattle since he was in his late 20s and was a principal guest conductor with the Los Angeles Philharmonic when Carlo Maria Giulini was the MD. I won't pretend that I have liked everything I have heard by him but his success rate, in my estimation, has been quite high. More so than some other frequent LA conductors and MDs. As with most other conductors, he does have areas in which he does notably well. One particularly, which has been a source of some contention in Berlin, is his constant championing of contemporary music so I am surprised that he isn't more loved by our TC modern music champions.
> 
> One thing that I do like about him is his open and easy going personality coupled with an ability to get what he wants and he doesn't take himself too seriously. Towards the end of a recent documentary about him, he tells the story of how someone said (approx. quote) "You know Simon, the really great conductors don't start becoming great until they get into their 60s ... and you are no different!"
> 
> ...


Berliners played contemporary music before Rattle too. He just plays more of it. It's pleasant change of pace for him to play more modern music though. 
I have heard about "Leaving Home" - isn't it a Rattle documentary?

Although that's true [Karajan's '60s recordings and Bernstein's NYPO recordings] he has some very fine EMI sets done in the 200th and 199th decades.

Some accuse him of excess or flamboyance; your views?


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## violadude (May 2, 2011)

Herrenvolk said:


> Berliners played contemporary music before Rattle too. He just plays more of it. It's pleasant change of pace for him to play more modern music though.
> I have heard about "Leaving Home" - isn't it a Rattle documentary?
> 
> Although that's true [Karajan's '60s recordings and Bernstein's NYPO recordings] he has some very fine EMI sets done in the 200th and 199th decades.
> ...


I watched the "Leaving Home" documentary years ago and I really liked it. A lot of people say it's a little too forced the way he attempts to force certain images on the music that other people might not perceive, and I can see that criticism and agree somewhat, but at the time it really helped me get into 20th century music.


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

Herrenvolk said:


> Berliners played contemporary music before Rattle too. He just plays more of it. It's pleasant change of pace for him to play more modern music though.
> I have heard about "Leaving Home" - isn't it a Rattle documentary?


I should have been specific, yes Simon Rattle is the host and author of the series.


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## kanishknishar (Aug 10, 2015)

Becca said:


> I should have been specific, yes Simon Rattle is the host and author of the series.


I meant to say: Isn't the topic of the documentary Rattle's life? Or is it about Rattle discussing the evolution of music and his life? Or only music?


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

Herrenvolk said:


> I meant to say: Isn't the topic of the documentary Rattle's life? Or is it about Rattle discussing the evolution of music and his life? Or only music?


The latter, the evolution of 20th century music. The title 'Leaving Home' refers to 'home' in the tonality sense.


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## TwoFlutesOneTrumpet (Aug 31, 2011)

Rattle recorded the full Beethoven set with the VPO in the early 2000s. I bought the set http://www.amazon.com/Beethoven-Complete-Symphonies-Rattle-Philharmonic/dp/B000084T5W as it is a pretty good bargain. I don't listen to it too often(probably a few years since I played it) and my recollection of it is that there is nothing particularly memorable. I probably wouldn't buy another Beethoven set but if individual symphonies stand out, I might be tempted to try, if they make them available separately. I love the BPO sound.


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## dieter (Feb 26, 2016)

Bayreuth said:


> I recall having read in... Gramophone?? (not sure) that a performance of Mahler's Second Symphony by Rattle with the BPO was the very best recording of this symphony ever made (which, honestly, surprised me quite a bit).
> 
> Is this recording the one you have, Pugg? Is it really THAT good??


I have that cd, burnt it from our local library's copy. It is underwhelming. Seriously, Rattle, especially in Mahler, has this annoying habit of perversely highlighting something, reveling in his 'creation', then almost turning around with a beam on his face saying, Look how clever am I.
In the meantime, that whole structure of the movement has disintegrated.


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## dieter (Feb 26, 2016)

Herrenvolk said:


> How's the CBSO recording?
> 
> And Solti, Karajan, Ormandy, Bernstein, Szell, Harnoncourt, Hogwood, Toscanini, Maazel, Davis and Kleiber weren't? Nonsense. They were always marketed aggresively by their respective recording company(ies). Honestly, how would you know anything about Rattle if you've heard only one recording?
> 
> ...


Seriously, have you read my post? I have many Rattle recordings, bought mainly at sales in Cheap Boxed format, e.g. Rattle conducts 2nd Viennese, Rattle conducts Russia etc etc and the only Rattle performance I like is the reconstructed movement of the Bruckner 9.
And none of the other conductors were pet projects of the British Musical Press. Yes, they were marketed aggressively by their record companies, Rattle was marketed by the press.


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## Guest (Apr 4, 2016)

Rattle seems like a nice chap and his conducting style is, to my eyes, no more offensive than any other. I have one recording - Beethoven's 1st and 6th - a freebie when I joined the digital concerthall last Christmas, where I also enjoyed watching his Sibelius set.

Frankly, I have no 'favourite' conductor - I'm more interested in the listening than the watching anyway, and trying to find my ideal Sibelius 7th on Spotify has just proved to me that none gets it 'right' in my ears. Mind you I've yet to hear Storgards.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Somehow I have missed Rattle's Beethoven (and I have a truckload of cycles). I'm waiting for some indication that I should explore his Ludwig.


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## AClockworkOrange (May 24, 2012)

I have just picked up Rattle's Wiener Beethoven Cycle. It was on special offer in a local store.

Whilst Rattle is an inconsistent Conductor at times, he draws much more negativity than he deserves. It seems to be the 'in' thing to dislike him. 

I haven't heard all his recordings but of those I have, his Berliner Philharmoniker Sibelius cycle, his disc of Stravinsky Symphonies, his Brahms Requiem and his recording of Schumann's Das Paradies... with the LSO are all enjoyable performances. I also enjoyed his performing version of Bruckner's Ninth. The recording of Elgar's 'Dream of Gerontious' with the Wiener Philharmoniker at the BBC Proms was remarkable too. This led me to take up the offer and try his Beethoven.

From my listening so far, I would place Rattle's Beethoven ahead of Thiemann, Barenboim, Chailly, Zinman and Harnoncourt. 

As for a new Berliner Philharmoniker cycle, I would be curious and at the right price consider it - but I would need to hear samples first. 

It would have to win me over significantly enough to displace a physical set I own (I keep digital copies of everything I thin out though) - with 24 cycles (physical & digital combined) - it would have to impress me and show enough difference over his Wiener Cycle for me to make the purchase.

I will certainly keep an open mind and open ears.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

For a traditional non-mannered Beethoven cycle that nods to HIP in just the right way, I'd take Haitink's 2006 cycle with the London Symphony Orchestra.


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## AndorFoldes (Aug 25, 2012)

AClockworkOrange said:


> As for a new Berliner Philharmoniker cycle, I would be curious and at the right price consider it - but I would need to hear samples first.


Samples are available here.

Let us know your opinion. I posted mine already.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

KenOC said:


> For a traditional non-mannered Beethoven cycle that nods to HIP in just the right way, I'd take Haitink's 2006 cycle with the London Symphony Orchestra.


I would go for the Royal Concertgebouw Recordings any day off the week :tiphat:


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## Richard8655 (Feb 19, 2016)

Pugg said:


> I would go for the Royal Concertgebouw Recordings any day off the week :tiphat:


Loyalty has no bounds!


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Richard8655 said:


> Loyalty has no bounds!


Yes they have, that honest I am .:tiphat:


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## Animal the Drummer (Nov 14, 2015)

dieter said:


> I have that cd, burnt it from our local library's copy. It is underwhelming. Seriously, Rattle, especially in Mahler, has this annoying habit of perversely highlighting something, reveling in his 'creation', then almost turning around with a beam on his face saying, Look how clever am I.
> In the meantime, that whole structure of the movement has disintegrated.


This, in spades. The case against Rattle has zip to do with his podium style and everything to do with the fact that he's heavily over-interventionist, forever looking to "do something with" the music instead of enabling it to reveal its own secrets, trying to apply some "special effect" to the music from outside instead of releasing the magic from within. All of this has been laid quite specifically at his door by those of us whose boat remains unfloated by Rattle's musical narcissism, so a resounding "Not Guilty" to the weird charge of lack of explanation by the supposed "anti-Rattle rabble". On the contrary, to reflect the true situation that charge should be turned on its head and laid at the door of at least some of Rattle's adoring acolytes, whose demeanour can sometimes be uncomfortably reminiscent of something out of North Korea.


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## Guest (Apr 8, 2016)

Animal the Drummer said:


> he's heavily over-interventionist, forever looking to "do something with" the music instead of enabling it to reveal its own secrets, trying to apply some "special effect" to the music from outside instead of releasing the magic from within.


Can you point to an example?

Given that no two conductors interpret works in exactly the same way, all but one of them could be described as 'interventionist (the 'one' being the one who, in your opinion, or mine, has 'released the magic from within'). He's no more guilty, IMO, than any other, with the gross exception of Maximianno Cobra.



Animal the Drummer said:


> The case against Rattle has zip to do with his podium style


And yet you support dieter's claim that he seems to be "_almost turning around with a beam on his face saying, Look how clever am I". _Given that he only 'almost' turns round, you and dieter are only claiming something imaginary.



Animal the Drummer said:


> some of Rattle's adoring acolytes, whose demeanour can sometimes be uncomfortably reminiscent of something out of North Korea.


That's quite a claim - though perhaps I'll not read too much in to this comparison until you have clarified exactly what you mean by it. Can you point to an example of Rattle's adoring acolytes and how they remind you of 'something out of North Korea'?


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

KenOC said:


> For a traditional non-mannered Beethoven cycle that nods to HIP in just the right way, I'd take Haitink's 2006 cycle with the London Symphony Orchestra.


Afraid I find Haitink's Beethoven a bit dull.


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## Animal the Drummer (Nov 14, 2015)

MacLeod said:


> Can you point to an example?
> 
> Given that no two conductors interpret works in exactly the same way, all but one of them could be described as 'interventionist (the 'one' being the one who, in your opinion, or mine, has 'released the magic from within'). He's no more guilty, IMO, than any other, with the gross exception of Maximianno Cobra.
> 
> ...


To be absolutely fair, orchestras seem to like Rattle and I can see that his approach could add interest for musicians who will have played this music many times before. Those who enjoy his approach as listeners are obv.welcome to their preference too. However, the idea that dislike of that approach denotes the musical equivalent of an unthinking "rabble" is simply silly. There is a great deal more to it than that.


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## kanishknishar (Aug 10, 2015)

MacLeod said:


> Can you point to an example?
> 
> Given that no two conductors interpret works in exactly the same way, all but one of them could be described as 'interventionist (the 'one' being the one who, in your opinion, or mine, has 'released the magic from within'). He's no more guilty, IMO, than any other, with the gross exception of Maximianno Cobra.
> 
> ...


*HAIL RATTLE! THE GREATEST CONDUCTOR ALIVE AND THE GREATEST SINCE KARAJAN !*

There! That should take care of the "the adoring acolytes/North Korea" nonsense.

I can't comment regarding Rattle's Mahler since I have only heard his CBSO #2 recordings months ago. But what I can say is that criticizing Rattle's interventions specifically is pure prejudice. All the great conductors didn't adhere closely to the score, they were liberal with their own personal peppering [i.e. touches]. Some went very far [e.g. Stokowski, if I remember correctly; and Solti's Haydn.] and some were more consistent with their minor edits like say Karajan's Brahms and Beethoven. Forget even these modern recordings, all the greats of the era long gone - considered golden by many - that consisted of Furtwangler, Toscanini, Klemperer, Walter, Stokowski, Monteux, Reiner, etc. they surely didn't conduct the piece exactly as it was written on the score. Besides, a person should be able to bring something new to the score, these old warhorses not just merely repeat what's written on the score. Part of the art of being a conductor is instilling new life into scores or doing something personal with it. That's why I think many people find HIPster performances as dry because _sometimes _the performances do not inject any personality into it.

Honestly, if you dislike his Mahler or any of his performances, that's fine. But state that "Rattle is not up to my tastes", don't lambaste him. That's why Ms. Becca said "anti-Rattle rabble".



dieter said:


> Seriously, have you read my post? I have many Rattle recordings, bought mainly at sales in Cheap Boxed format, e.g. Rattle conducts 2nd Viennese, Rattle conducts Russia etc etc and the only Rattle performance I like is the reconstructed movement of the Bruckner 9.
> And none of the other conductors were pet projects of the British Musical Press. Yes, they were marketed aggressively by their record companies, Rattle was marketed by the press.


A man doesn't get to the top of one world's finest [or at least revered] orchestra by being a mere show-pony. He doesn't get re-elected by a majority vote by the orchestral members if he didn't have something fantastic and different.

Doesn't seem that way:



dieter said:


> I have not one recording of Rattle - except for the reconstructed finale of the Bruckner 9 - that I rate. He's a show pony, borne aloft by the British Musical Press in the late 80's.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

DavidA said:


> Afraid I find Haitink's Beethoven a bit dull.


The L.S.O or the Royal Concert Gebouw Orchestra?


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## Heliogabo (Dec 29, 2014)

I confess that I enjoy Rattle's Beethoven Emi Cycle. Ups, wrong thread....!


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

Animal the Drummer said:


> This, in spades. The case against Rattle has zip to do with his podium style and everything to do with the fact that he's heavily over-interventionist, forever looking to "do something with" the music instead of enabling it to reveal its own secrets, trying to apply some "special effect" to the music from outside instead of releasing the magic from within. All of this has been laid quite specifically at his door by those of us whose boat remains unfloated by Rattle's musical narcissism, so a resounding "Not Guilty" to the weird charge of lack of explanation by the supposed "anti-Rattle rabble". On the contrary, to reflect the true situation that charge should be turned on its head and laid at the door of at least some of Rattle's adoring acolytes, *whose demeanour can sometimes be uncomfortably reminiscent of something out of North Korea.*


Is this a variation of Godwin's Law? Apparently it is a case of when you dislike something sufficiently, make an outlandish comparison.


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## Animal the Drummer (Nov 14, 2015)

If criticising Rattle's interventions specifically is "prejudice", the same would apply to making any preferential distinctions between performers and to explaining why. The idea is of course the purest eyewash, because it isn't the simple fact that Rattle intervenes that's being criticised, it's the frequency and the obtrusiveness of his interventions. Most of the other conductors cited above were willing and able to keep theirs within bounds and put into practice the idea that sometimes less is more, a principle to which Rattle's prioritising of novelty of effect blinds him too often. The greatest music simply doesn't need its interpreters to nudge it along at every turn.


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## Animal the Drummer (Nov 14, 2015)

Becca said:


> Is this a variation of Godwin's Law? Apparently it is a case of when you dislike something sufficiently, make an outlandish comparison.


I was challenged to explain that reference in more detail, and I did. Perhaps you put this post up without getting that far.


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

Animal the Drummer said:


> I was challenged to explain that reference in more detail, and I did. Perhaps you put this post up without getting that far.


Perhaps you would care to let us know how your explanation relates to comparing people's demeanour to "something out of North Korea"?

Incidentally, how many of Rattle's concerts have you attended? Or watched on the Digital Concert Hall?


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## Animal the Drummer (Nov 14, 2015)

By all means. Your fellow Rattle fan's description of the concert he was referring to reminded me of nothing so much as the coverage one sometimes sees of official conferences and other events in that benighted country, with audience members determined to show just how Wonderful they find the whole thing. The personal offence which Rattle fans so often seem to take on forums like this when criticism of him dares to make itself known has more than a touch of the same about it - your colleague's post on that other forum had a decided "How dare you criticise someone who can inspire such devotion?" feel to it and I've already drawn attention to your, ah, rabble-rousing above.

I've attended four or five Rattle concerts over the years, though the last one was some time ago. I'm not a habitué of the Digital Concert Hall.


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## gardibolt (May 22, 2015)

I have Rattle's Vienna cycle, and I found it to be quite satisfactory. He's lively, and most of the time takes the repeats, and there's a lot of humor (in both senses of the word). It's not my favorite cycle, but it's in the top five or six I've heard, I'd say.

It can be difficult at times to separate Rattle from the fawning British music press, but I do try to separate the two and judge his work on its own merits. If anything, the annoyance factor makes him start out behind the 8-ball with me.


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## dieter (Feb 26, 2016)

Animal the Drummer said:


> If criticising Rattle's interventions specifically is "prejudice", the same would apply to making any preferential distinctions between performers and to explaining why. The idea is of course the purest eyewash, because it isn't the simple fact that Rattle intervenes that's being criticised, it's the frequency and the obtrusiveness of his interventions. Most of the other conductors cited above were willing and able to keep theirs within bounds and put into practice the idea that sometimes less is more, a principle to which Rattle's prioritising of novelty of effect blinds him too often. The greatest music simply doesn't need its interpreters to nudge it along at every turn.


I agree entirely.


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## dieter (Feb 26, 2016)

Herrenvolk said:


> *HAIL RATTLE! THE GREATEST CONDUCTOR ALIVE AND THE GREATEST SINCE KARAJAN !*
> 
> There! That should take care of the "the adoring acolytes/North Korea" nonsense.
> 
> ...


Rattle is not to my taste.


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## kanishknishar (Aug 10, 2015)

dieter said:


> Rattle is not to my taste.


It would have been better to state that in the first place then denigrating him. Respect each other's views.



Animal the Drummer said:


> If criticising Rattle's interventions specifically is "prejudice", the same would apply to making any preferential distinctions between performers and to explaining why. The idea is of course the purest eyewash, because it isn't the simple fact that Rattle intervenes that's being criticised, it's the frequency and the obtrusiveness of his interventions. Most of the other conductors cited above were willing and able to keep theirs within bounds and put into practice the idea that sometimes less is more, a principle to which Rattle's prioritising of novelty of effect blinds him too often. The greatest music simply doesn't need its interpreters to nudge it along at every turn.


Ah, if that's what you want to stick for all conductors except Rattle [and a few others which you may also dislike], that's fine. Have a good day.


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## dieter (Feb 26, 2016)

Herrenvolk said:


> It would have been better to state that in the first place then denigrating him. Respect each other's views.
> 
> Ah, if that's what you want to stick for all conductors except Rattle [and a few others which you may also dislike], that's fine. Have a good day.


Menschen's kinder, Herrenvolk, don't you understand that if you respect each other's views you can cope if someone criticizes aspects of someone who you may happen to like. All I've ever said is that I find Rattle pulls things around, that what he does diminishes from a work's structure, that he is not the great conductor he's made out to be by the British press. If the Berliners like him, so what? You sound like a sergeant major at times.


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## kanishknishar (Aug 10, 2015)

dieter said:


> Menschen's kinder, Herrenvolk, don't you understand that if you respect each other's views you can cope if someone criticizes aspects of someone who you may happen to like. All I've ever said is that I find Rattle pulls things around, that what he does diminishes from a work's structure, that he is not the great conductor he's made out to be by the British press. If the Berliners like him, so what? You sound like a sergeant major at times.


People's Children? I don't speak German.

Being tolerant doesn't mean you can't engage in debates with others about their differing views. Besides, I'm not offended or getting irrational like a fanboy would.

It's not only Berliners.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

​
:angel::cheers:


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## Guest (Apr 9, 2016)

Animal the Drummer said:


> an you point to an example?
> 
> Given that no two conductors interpret works in exactly the same way, all but one of them could be described as 'interventionist (the 'one' being the one who, in your opinion, or mine, has 'released the magic from within'). He's no more guilty, IMO, than any other, with the gross exception of Maximianno Cobra.
> 
> ...


Thanks for posting some highly personal examples of why you dislike his interpretations. I had thought from your earlier criticism you would offer some universally observed examples, or some musicologist's critical analysis.

What I object to in the criticism levelled against Rattle here - I'm not interested in other Forums - is less to do with him and his work and more to do with his "fans".

By all means explain why you don't like his work, but leave out the wholly unnecessary comparsion of his fans with 'something out of North Korea' (which, by the way, you fail to explain properly). It's hardly surprising that such criticism prompts the riposte that there is an anti-Rattle animus amongst some here which is disproportionate to the quality of his works.


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## Guest (Apr 9, 2016)

dieter said:


> If the Berliners like him, so what?


It's taken as a signifier that he has achieved a status not accorded to other British conductors except Colin Davis. It may mean nothing to you personally, but it seems reasonable to other observers that the BPO is one of the top orchestras in the world and they don't just pick anyone to be their Principal.



dieter said:


> he is not the great conductor he's made out to be by the British press.


I'm not clear that this observation is of any significance, since it still allows for him to be a great conductor! I've not read much of the British press on the subject - but even if it is true that he has been over-hyped, that's hardly Rattle's fault and is not a judgement that has any bearing on the quality of his conducting.


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## dieter (Feb 26, 2016)

MacLeod said:


> It's taken as a signifier that he has achieved a status not accorded to other British conductors except Colin Davis. It may mean nothing to you personally, but it seems reasonable to other observers that the BPO is one of the top orchestras in the world and they don't just pick anyone to be their Principal.
> 
> I'm not clear that this observation is of any significance, since it still allows for him to be a great conductor! I've not read much of the British press on the subject - but even if it is true that he has been over-hyped, that's hardly Rattle's fault and is not a judgement that has any bearing on the quality of his conducting.


Hi MacLeod
Who orchestras invite and who they don't invite is and can be a mixture of very many things. It's not often to do just with 'status'. It can be political, it can be to do with availability, and what a poor musical world it would be if great orchestras only invite current darlings and wunderkinds.
If the British musical press - especially Gramophone when Rattle first made a splash - over-hypes Rattle it is hardly Rattles fault. It's also hardly his fault that his career has cashed in on the hype. 
So I'm not writing so passionately on this subject because I don't like Rattle - he is a very charming speaker, he adored the music making one of my great musical heroes, Kurt Sanderling, for example -but it does annoy me when I buy one of his recordings, example, the Nielsen Pan and Syrinx, or the Mahler symphonies, at the behest of his great musical press to find the recordings superficial and uninteresting.
I too had an experience with Rattle's VPO Beethoven 7. I had, by the way, not heard a bar of his Beethoven before that.I turned on the car radio as the last movement started and I challenged myself to guess the conductor. I found the playing quite uneventful, even pedestrian. Then, as usual, Sir Simon did what he does best, there was a quirky little turn of phrase and I said, Got you, Simon, got you in one.
At the end the announcer confirmed it was Sir Simon Hisself.(Sic)


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## spats1971 (Apr 10, 2016)

To me the irony of the arguments posed here is that what appears to be discussed is whether the conductor is essentially 'right' in his/her interpretation. As a result of the listeners judgement in this regard a further judgement on the conductors credibility is made. The evidence / reasons for this judgement seem to be relatively subjective, at times almost arbitrary, and appear to have a direct correlation between their harshness and the relative success of the conductor in question.

I have been a keen observer of Rattle progress over the last 30 years. I can recall highlights that have eclipsed many other performances of the same work (Mahler 6 Proms CBSO 1995, Mahler 10 Bournemouth etc), but also other performances that have left me scratching my head (Bach St Matthew's Passion Proms 2015, Brahms Symphonies BPO).

On reflection, to me some conductors are very good at conducting a wealth and variety of music from periods and countries with a certain degree of success, whereas others have certain areas of expertise that warrant special mention but yet when they turn their hand to other styles/periods have significantly much less success. Rattle I believe is of this mode. Bernstein I believe the same. There are obviously others.

However a friend of mine who has played under most of the current regarded 'greats' has said that Rattle enjoys a certain credibility and trust from many orchestral players and indeed his love for music is incredibly apparent. I have always found him deeply engaging and sincere. To doubt this seems to me to perhaps be a little unfair.

I don't know if this adds anything to the discussion, but just wanted to put in my two pennys worth!


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

spats1971 said:


> To me the irony of the arguments posed here is that what appears to be discussed is whether the conductor is essentially 'right' in his/her interpretation. As a result of the listeners judgement in this regard a further judgement on the conductors credibility is made. The evidence / reasons for this judgement seem to be relatively subjective, at times almost arbitrary, and appear to have a direct correlation between their harshness and the relative success of the conductor in question.
> 
> I have been a keen observer of Rattle progress over the last 30 years. I can recall highlights that have eclipsed many other performances of the same work (Mahler 6 Proms CBSO 1995, Mahler 10 Bournemouth etc), but also other performances that have left me scratching my head (Bach St Matthew's Passion Proms 2015, Brahms Symphonies BPO).
> 
> ...


Ans so you did in your first post, welcome :cheers:


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## dieter (Feb 26, 2016)

spats1971 said:


> To me the irony of the arguments posed here is that what appears to be discussed is whether the conductor is essentially 'right' in his/her interpretation. As a result of the listeners judgement in this regard a further judgement on the conductors credibility is made. The evidence / reasons for this judgement seem to be relatively subjective, at times almost arbitrary, and appear to have a direct correlation between their harshness and the relative success of the conductor in question.
> 
> I have been a keen observer of Rattle progress over the last 30 years. I can recall highlights that have eclipsed many other performances of the same work (Mahler 6 Proms CBSO 1995, Mahler 10 Bournemouth etc), but also other performances that have left me scratching my head (Bach St Matthew's Passion Proms 2015, Brahms Symphonies BPO).
> 
> ...


I agree. He's certainly engaging and sincere. He comes across as an eminently likable human being. No wonder musicians like him.


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## kanishknishar (Aug 10, 2015)

spats1971 said:


> To me the irony of the arguments posed here is that what appears to be discussed is whether the conductor is essentially 'right' in his/her interpretation. As a result of the listeners judgement in this regard a further judgement on the conductors credibility is made. The evidence / reasons for this judgement seem to be relatively subjective, at times almost arbitrary, and appear to have a direct correlation between their harshness and the relative success of the conductor in question.
> 
> I have been a keen observer of Rattle progress over the last 30 years. I can recall highlights that have eclipsed many other performances of the same work (Mahler 6 Proms CBSO 1995, Mahler 10 Bournemouth etc), but also other performances that have left me scratching my head (Bach St Matthew's Passion Proms 2015, Brahms Symphonies BPO).
> 
> ...


I have tried to leer away from being "right" and more simply question the people who consider his approach "wrong". Hopefully it worked into challenging their perception of what's "right". A turn of phrase or whatever ho-hum they might consider "wrong", Thanks for the reply, Spats! Welcome to the forum!


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

dieter said:


> Rattle is not to my taste.


Nor to mine!


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## vincentfernandes (Jan 8, 2013)

Can anyone tell me if, in the surround sound version, you can isolate the orchestrain the 9th? Or did they mix the choir on all the channels?


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## MatthewWeflen (Jan 24, 2019)

This thread was an amusing read. I have four Rattle sets - the Beethoven in question, Sibelius with BPO, Beethoven Piano Concertos with BPO/Mitsuko Uchida, and Dvorak Tone Poems. The Beethovens are thin (quasi-HIP) with idiosyncratioc tempo choices throughout. The Sibelius is a snoozer, but isn't as thinly played as Beethoven. The Dvorak is quite good, though - robust and engaging.

.250 is not a very good batting average for a musician. If anything, given the number of pieces, his success rate is even lower. Rattle is engaging to hear talk, though. Seems nice enough.


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## Animal the Drummer (Nov 14, 2015)

He does, and back in the day I knew a couple of members of the CBSO who spoke well of him personally and musically.

That said, with one or two exceptions (e.g.his Beethoven concertos with Brendel and the Vienna Phil) I don't generally respond to his musicmaking any more favourably now than I did a few years ago when I was part of this thread!


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## Subutai (Feb 28, 2021)

Is it me or whenever you see Rattle on an album cover, he always looks like Kenneth Williams in a white perm wig?


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## Malx (Jun 18, 2017)

Subutai said:


> Is it me or whenever you see Rattle on an album cover, he always looks like Kenneth Williams in a white perm wig?


Its you  .


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## RogerWaters (Feb 13, 2017)

MatthewWeflen said:


> The Beethovens are thin (quasi-HIP) with idiosyncratioc tempo choices throughout.


This. I would wager that part of what some find problematic about Rattle is that he produces the above with an orchestra that used to scale the heights of glory.

How the mighty have fallen.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

Subutai said:


> Is it me or whenever you see Rattle on an album cover, he always looks like Kenneth Williams in a white perm wig?


Yeah, it is as if he tried to look like a real classical maestro, Tom Hulce in a white powdered wig, but failed, so he ended up looking like a downgraded version of that.


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## SONNET CLV (May 31, 2014)

*Rattle's Beethoven!*
*______________________________*









This kid seems to have mastered the Ninth. He plays all the parts and sings as well! Bravo! There's nothing like Rattle's Beethoven to make my day, especially when the performer is as talented as this kid. (Too bad the video link won't open. No sound available. But we all have great imaginations, don't we?)


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