# Alban Berg



## Sid James

*Alban Maria Johannes Berg *(February 9, 1885 - December 24, 1935) was an Austrian composer. He was a member of the Second Viennese School with Arnold Schoenberg and Anton Webern, and produced compositions that combined Mahlerian Romanticism with a personal adaptation of Schoenberg's twelve-tone technique.

[Taken from Wikipedia]

Berg was, by all accounts, a very influential C20th composer. I find his music more accessible than that of the other two mentioned above.

Highlights of his output for me would have to be his _String Quartet _(1910), _Lyric Suite_ (1925-6), the _Violin Concerto _(1935) & one of the great operas of the century, _Wozzeck_ (1921).

(I hope that this thread doesn't degenerate to the level that the Schoenberg thread did. Please don't get personal and abusive if you don't like Berg's music, or atonal music generally.)


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## Air

Andre said:


> Arnold Schoenberg and Anton Webern... I find his music more accessible than that of the other two mentioned above.


Really? I've always thought he was the least accessible of the three. I mean, Schoenberg and Webern wrote some non-atonal works such as "Verklarte Nacht", "Im Sommerwind", and "Passacaglia", while Berg wrote only a handful of about 30 pieces, all of them atonal.

Andre, I've been wondering for awhile if you're a fan of twelve-tone... I'm definitely not. I haven't given up on it though...I tried the Berg "Violin Concerto" and "String Quartet" yesterday...


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## Sid James

airad2 said:


> Really? I've always thought he was the least accessible of the three...Berg wrote only a handful of about 30 pieces, all of them atonal.
> 
> Andre, I've been wondering for awhile if you're a fan of twelve-tone...


I meant that out of all their atonal works, Berg's are the most accessible to me. As the Wikipedia excerpt mentions, there was also a certain amount of Romantic influence on his music. _Wozzeck_, for example, has many lush sounds coming from the orchestra, some that would not be out of place in a Wagner opera. In comparison to Berg, I find Schoenberg to be too technical & Webern to be too cerebral for his own good.

I do like atonal works. Perhaps not so much Schoenberg or Webern, but I especially like those composers such as Berg & Henze, who seemed to combine the rigours of atonality with the expressiveness of the Romantic era.


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## Edward Elgar

Berg is the most accessible to me too, probably because his music is the most emotionally charged of the big three 12 toners.

His violin concerto will become one of the all time greats, and I dare any of you to find me a composer who composed a better Opus 1!


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## Mirror Image

For me, the whole 12-tone method of composition is interesting, but ultimately it's just a sound experiment more than anything. I composed one piece completely in 12-tone just for fun a couple of years ago. It's fun to work with, but it doesn't offer much in the way of melody or harmony. Rhythmically it can be very interesting, but the melodies, since there are no tonal centers, makes everything sound very erratic and edgy, which is just not my cup of tea.

Again, in my opinion, it's just a sonic experiment that I'm not a fan of at all.


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## Bach

airad2 said:


> Really? I've always thought he was the least accessible of the three. I mean, Schoenberg and Webern wrote some non-atonal works such as "Verklarte Nacht", "Im Sommerwind", and "Passacaglia", while Berg wrote only a handful of about 30 pieces, all of them atonal.


the Piano Sonata is not serial, neither is much of Wozzeck or his lieder.


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## Herzeleide

Mirror Image said:


> For me, the whole 12-tone method of composition is interesting, but ultimately it's just a sound experiment more than anything. I composed one piece completely in 12-tone just for fun a couple of years ago. It's fun to work with, but it doesn't offer much in the way of melody or harmony. Rhythmically it can be very interesting, but the melodies, since there are no tonal centers, makes everything sound very erratic and edgy, which is just not my cup of tea.
> 
> Again, in my opinion, it's just a sonic experiment that I'm not a fan of at all.


Berg in many respects was a very Romantic composer. I would imagine you'd like his Violin Concerto, Mirror Image, and his opera Lulu is quite clearly influenced by Mahler (as were the entire Second Viennese School). For you I'd suggest tracking down a recording of Berg's Lulu Symphony, which comprises music from the opera arranged in symphonic form. I recommend Simon Rattle's interpretation.


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## Mirror Image

Herzeleide said:


> Berg in many respects was a very Romantic composer. I would imagine you'd like his Violin Concerto, Mirror Image, and his opera Lulu is quite clearly influenced by Mahler (as were the entire Second Viennese School). For you I'd suggest tracking down a recording of Berg's Lulu Symphony, which comprises music from the opera arranged in symphonic form. I recommend Simon Rattle's interpretation.


Alright thanks I'll track these compositions down.


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## matsoljare

To those who wish for more in the same style, i can greatly recommend the works of the little known Karl Amadeus Hartmann, who i only recently discovered, but who is apparently highly regarded in certain circles in his homeland, but little known elsewhere. Friedrich Cerha is another composer who has taken up where Berg left, he is also perhaps most famous for finishing the orchestration of Lulu.


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## Sid James

Herzeleide said:


> Berg in many respects was a very Romantic composer. I would imagine you'd like his Violin Concerto, Mirror Image, and his opera Lulu is quite clearly influenced by Mahler (as were the entire Second Viennese School). For you I'd suggest tracking down a recording of Berg's Lulu Symphony, which comprises music from the opera arranged in symphonic form. I recommend Simon Rattle's interpretation.


I would also recommend the _Lulu Symphony _(or _Suite_?) for Berg beginners. It is largely atonal, but there are alot of luxuriant sounds coming from the orchestra, especially the woodwinds and brass, like you'd find in a Mahler symphony or Wagner opera. At the end, it also has a soprano solo which shows how well he could write for the voice. The whole suite makes quite an emotional impact on the listener. The opera itself (I expect) to be more tortured, but the suite is relatively easy to listen to if you have a reasonalby open mind.

I think that the _Violin Concerto _is a bit more challenging, but very rewarding nonetheless. Same goes with the _String Quartet & Lyric Suite_. I think that his music can not only be very emotional, but in some of the above works he only concentrates on a few themes as opposed to many melodies that you'd find with other composers. So he builds and develops the entire work, like the _String Quartet_, on only two main themes. So if you listen to the work a few times, you can hear how he always returns to the main theme/s. A bit like Berlioz's _idee fixee _or Wagner's _leitmotif_. So if you are willing to give it a go, his works can be quite approachable and not too difficult to digest.


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## wolf

Andre said:


> I meant that out of all their atonal works, Berg's are the most accessible to me...


That is not so strange, Berg is considered by many (at least by me!) as great a composer as Schönberg. In his 12-tone series he touches more the tonal, as can be heard often, and that makes it more 'pleasant to the ear'. His violin concerto is divine.
Bergs I loved instantly but I had to listen to Schönbergs at least 6-8 times before I really could appreciate it. It's difficult to say that one is better - they are good in different ways, Schönberg is a little more cerebral as you say. But for sheer beauty Berg takes the price. Berg is underrated as a composer, the tracks led through Webern, not through him...And his life was short.


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## bdelykleon

And Berg's oeuvre is rather small: Lulu, Wozzeck, Violin Concerto, Sonata, 3 Pieces for ochestra, Lyric Suite, String Quartet op. 3, Chamber Concerto, some songs, Der Wein. And that's all, I mean EVERTHING. I can't figure any other composer with so few pieces, ok, you may say Webern in terms of minutes has less music, but it is rather impressive how few those tow composed, in Berg's case, everything extremely good, I can't pick a bad piece here. Webern's work is more uneven, those songs and canons are so dull.


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## Sid James

bdelykleon said:


> And Berg's oeuvre is rather small: Lulu, Wozzeck, Violin Concerto, Sonata, 3 Pieces for ochestra, Lyric Suite, String Quartet op. 3, Chamber Concerto, some songs, Der Wein. And that's all, I mean EVERTHING. I can't figure any other composer with so few pieces... but it is rather impressive how few those tow composed, in Berg's case, everything extremely good, I can't pick a bad piece here...


I agree, bdelydkleon. He didn't have a large output, but every genre he touched - instrumental, chamber, orchestral, opera - he excelled in. One of the few composers who, because they produced relatively little, you can guarantee that what you get is the finest quality.

& his influence on later generations is also underestimated. I've recently gotten to know Henze's violin concertos & the influence of Berg is unmistakable there.

What a pity that Berg died comparably quite young. We have been robbed of so many more masterpieces that he undoubtably would have produced.


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## Sid James

Just thought I'd resurrect this thread, since I've been listening to some Berg lately. I think Berg would easily be among my top ten composers. I really like his _Violin Concerto_ now, although earlier it didn't grab me as much. It could be because I've recently acquired Stern's classic 1950's account with Bernstein. It is very emotional but also intellectual. There seems to be a kind of story attached to many of Berg's pieces, like the death of Gropius & Alma Mahler's daughter which triggered him writing the _Violin Concerto_, or the secret love affair he had, which resulted in the _Lyric Suite_. Some, like the _Chamber Concerto_ are dedicated to other composers, in that case, Schoenberg.

The only major work I want to get now is the opera _Lulu_, since I've only got the suite. Any recommendations for good recordings or even DVD's of that would be appreciated...


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## World Violist

Yes, I've come to like Berg as well, actually. I don't really know about top 10, but still I much like some of his works like the piano sonata and the violin concerto.



Andre said:


> Just thought I'd resurrect this thread, since I've been listening to some Berg lately. I think Berg would easily be among my top ten composers. I really like his _Violin Concerto_ now, although earlier it didn't grab me as much. It could be because I've recently acquired Stern's classic 1950's account with Bernstein. It is very emotional but also intellectual. There seems to be a kind of story attached to many of Berg's pieces, like the death of Gropius & Alma Mahler's daughter which triggered him writing the _Violin Concerto_, or the secret love affair he had, which resulted in the _Lyric Suite_. Some, like the _Chamber Concerto_ are dedicated to other composers, in that case, Schoenberg.
> 
> The only major work I want to get now is the opera _Lulu_, since I've only got the suite. Any recommendations for good recordings or even DVD's of that would be appreciated...


I don't know anything about Lulu recordings, but here's one that the reviews I've read say is very good and the price is very good as well:


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## andruini

I recently listened to his Chamber Concerto for the first time and I really liked it.. I totally agree that his music seems to be more accessible than the other two.. It's really a shame that people just run in terror at the mention of his name or any other name in the Second Viennese School.. There's some really worthwhile music to be found in there, methinks..


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## Il Seraglio

andruini said:


> I recently listened to his Chamber Concerto for the first time and I really liked it.. I totally agree that his music seems to be more accessible than the other two.. It's really a shame that people just run in terror at the mention of his name or any other name in the Second Viennese School.. There's some really worthwhile music to be found in there, methinks..


Yeah, I like Berg and Schoenberg too and I think any open-minded layperson can enjoy them.

Webern is a different story.


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## Sid James

The _Chamber Concerto _is a great work, I enjoy listening to it as well, but for Berg beginners I'd recommend the _Violin Concerto _first. It's just got this raw emotion. But then again, that's just my opinion. Since Berg didn't produce much music (comparatively), one may as well listen to virtually anything of his, because all of his major works are great...


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## starthrower

World Violist said:


> Yes, I've come to like Berg as well, actually. I don't really know about top 10, but still I much like some of his works like the piano sonata and the violin concerto.
> 
> I don't know anything about Lulu recordings, but here's one that the reviews I've read say is very good and the price is very good as well:


I believe it's a live recording? This reissue is cheap, but no text. You can still by cheap used copies of the earlier edition and you get the booklet.


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## rsmithor

*You Just Might Want to Rethink Alban Berg's Small Body of Work...*

The works of Alban Berg Universal Edition

Adagio | for violin, clarinet and piano 1925 
Alban Berg Studien 1980 
An Leukon | G minor | for higher voice and string orchestra 1908 
An Leukon | E minor | for medium voice and string orchestra 1908 
Analysen musikalischer Werke von Arnold Schönberg - 
3 Bruchstücke | from "Lulu" | for soprano, alto, tenor, baritone and ensemble 1935 
3 Bruchstücke | op. 7 | for soprano, orchestra and children's choir ad lib. 1923 
3 Bruchstücke | from "Wozzeck" | op. 7 | for soprano and orchestra | reduced v [...] 1923 
Es ist ein Reis entsprungen | for mixed choir a cappella - 
Frühe Klaviermusik 1: Ausgewählte Stücke | for piano 1908 
Frühe Klaviermusik 2: 12 Variationen über ein eigenes Thema | for piano 1908 
7 frühe Lieder | for high voice and piano 1908 
7 frühe Lieder | for high voice and orchestra 1928 
7 frühe Lieder | for high voice and ensemble 1928 
7 frühe Lieder | for medium voice and piano 1907 
7 frühe Lieder | for medium voice and orchestra 1928 
Gesamtausgabe - 
Hier ist Friede | op. 4/5 | for piano, harmonium, violin and violoncello 1917 
Hier ist Friede | op. 4 | for clarinet, piano and string quartet 1917 
Im Zimmer | for 8 voices 1908 
Jugendlieder | for voice and piano 1908 
Kammerkonzert - 
Kammerkonzert | for piano and violin with 13 wind instruments 1925 
Kanon | for 9 solo strings or string orchestra and violin solo ad lib. 1930 
Kompositionen aus der Studienzeit, Teil 1 - 
Kompositionen aus der Studienzeit, Teil 2 - 
4 Lieder | op. 2 | for medium voice and piano 1910 
2 Lieder | for voice and piano 1925 
4 Lieder | op. 2 | for medium voice and ensemble 2010 
Lulu | opera in 2 acts | including "Variations and Adagio" 1935 
Lulu | Opera in 3 acts 1935 
Lulu | 3rd act - 
Lulu | Opera in 3 acts | version for solo voices and chamber orchestra (2008/09 [...] 1935 
Lulu-Suite | for coloratura soprano and orchestra 1934 
Lied der Lulu | from the opera "Lulu" | for coloratura soprano and orchestra - 
Lulu Fantasy | for piano 2008 
Lyric Suite | for string quartet 1926 
The Secret Vocal Part | for string quartet 2001 
Lyrische Suite | for string orchestra 1928 
Lyrische Suite | for string orchestra 1926 
Die Nachtigall | D major | for 16-part choir 1907 
Orchestergesänge - 
5 Orchesterlieder | op. 4 | for medium voice and orchestra 1912 
5 Orchesterlieder | op. 4 | for medium voice and chamber ensemble 1912 
3 Orchesterstücke | op. 6 | for orchestra 1929 
Orchesterstudien: Schönberg - Webern - Berg | for bassoon - 
Passacaglia | for orchestra 1913 
Schließe mir die Augen beide | Eb major | for higher voice and orchestra 1900 
Schließe mir die Augen beide | C major | for medium voice and orchestra 1900 
Sonate | op. 1 | for piano 1909 
Die Sorglichen | A major | for medium voice and wind instruments 1907 
Die Sorglichen | C major | for higher voice and wind instruments 1907 
Das stille Königreich | A minor | for higher voice and orchestra 1908 
Das stille Königreich | G minor | for medium voice and orchestra 1908 
Streichquartett | op. 3 | for string quartet 1910 
Streichquartett | op. 3 | for piano for 4 hands 1910 
Four Pieces | op. 5 | for clarinet and piano 1913 
Symphonie-Fragmente 1913 
Traumgekrönt | for 16 voices 1908 
Variationen | for piano for 4 hands (or 2 pianos) - 
Variationen und Adagio | for orchestra - 
Violinkonzert - 
Violinkonzert | for violin and orchestra 1935 
Violinkonzert | for violin and chamber orchestra | reduced version 1935 
Webern, Berg, Schönberg: Austellungskatalog 1969 
Der Wein | for soprano and orchestra 1929 
Der Wein | for high voice and chamber orchestra 1929 
Wein, Weib und Gesang | op. 333 | for small ensemble 1921 [Arranger] 
Wozzeck | Opera in 3 acts (15 scenes) | op. 7 1921 
Wozzeck | op. 7 | Reduzierte Fassung (21 Instrumente) (Rea) 1921 
Wozzeck | op. 7 | Reduzierte Fassung (Stein) 1921 
Wozzeck | op. 7 | version for small orchestra (Kloke) 1921 
Wozzeck-Fragmente | for piano and string quintet -


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## Sid James

^^They must be the published things, but there are other unpublished things as well (esp. juvinelia).

I think he had a larger output than Webern but a smaller output than Schoenberg. 

& it's not a huge output compared to others like Stravinsky or Shostakovich, to take two 20th century giants, let alone other highly prolific guys like Hindemith or Martinu, etc...


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## Air

Air said:


> Really? I've always thought he was the least accessible of the three. I mean, Schoenberg and Webern wrote some non-atonal works such as "Verklarte Nacht", "Im Sommerwind", and "Passacaglia", while Berg wrote only a handful of about 30 pieces, all of them atonal.
> 
> Andre, I've been wondering for awhile if you're a fan of twelve-tone... I'm definitely not. I haven't given up on it though...I tried the Berg "Violin Concerto" and "String Quartet" yesterday...




Let's just hope my account was hacked when I wrote this back in '09.

Thank god I _didn't_ give up.


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## Sid James

^^I've been like that, I think we've all been like that.

Just remembering now, I was at a performance of a Berg piece last year here, and a lady behind me in the audience said to her companion at the end of the piece, "that was atonal but also so romantic." I thought it was spot-on, and maybe she had not heard this work before. It was his _String Quartet, Op. 3_, one of my favourite works by him, one of the earliest I heard on disc.

So I think music as powerful as this can move the listener, even if he or she is less acquainted with it, but it can also take time for other people, we are all different...


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## Jeremy Marchant

Sid James said:


> I especially like those composers such as Berg & Henze, who seemed to combine the rigours of atonality with the expressiveness of the Romantic era.


I'm surprised noone seems to have mentioned the _Three orchestral pieces_ op 6. My favourite! Particularly the third, Marsch (March) "A sizable and highly imaginative march, notable for its element of chaos and its extremes of orchestration"(Wikipedia), which sounds like a Mahler symphony (think sixth) compressed to neutron star density.


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## deprofundis

I heard some of is works, so far for a student of Schoenberg is music is* more conventional*, compared to webern per se is other student.

*Anything more eclectic more ''dark'' less joyfull that is Worth checking out *from mr alban berg?

what should i seek in is orchestral pièces ?

:tiphat: have a nice day folks


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## Mahlerian

Berg's output is small and uniformly of high quality. Check all of it out.

Wozzeck and Lulu are two of the best operas of the 20th century.
The Three Orchestral Pieces are a post-Mahlerian symphony in all but name, filled with waltz and march motifs, and the Violin Concerto is a deeply moving elegy.
His mature songs are beautiful and darkly lyrical.
The Lyric Suite and String Quartet are intense and dramatic.
The Chamber Concerto is a bit of an enigma to some, but it has verve and energy in its outer movements as well as a nocturnal sheen in its central adagio.


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## Guest

Mahlerian said:


> Berg's output is small and uniformly of high quality. Check all of it out.


Yes, this. The Alban Berg Collection on DG did not disappoint for a moment.


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## PetrB

bio / documentary:





If you're up or one of the more brilliantly dark and intense pieces from the entirety of operatic literature -- here's a live performance of the full-length *Lulu* with the London Philharmonic Orchestra, filmed for television (with sub-titles in English).





Add: Berg's earlier (Opus 7) opera, _*Wozzeck,*_ also full-length in a filmed version with English sub-titles.


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## Cosmos

I'll reccommend two of my favorite works by him (to be honest, I'm not extra familiar with his output yet)

Sonata op. 1. This isn't atonal or 12 tone, but it is very chromatic and enticing




String Quartet op. 3. The only one he wrote, I think


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## Mahlerian

Cosmos said:


> String Quartet op. 3. The only one he wrote, I think


The Lyric Suite is also for string quartet, though you're right that the op. 3 is the only work he calls string quartet.


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## hpowders

The latest Fanfare has one reviewer raving about a new Beethoven/Berg violin concertos CD. Given the track record of the reviewer (not in synch with my tastes) and the fact that I just bought another (!!!) Mozart complete keyboard concertos, I will pass.

Anyone wanting the names of the performers involved, PM me.


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## elgar's ghost

Does anyone have any ideas as to why Berg stopped using opus numbers after Wozzeck (op. 7)? Did he think issuing opus numbers was an unnecessary bit of frippery bearing in mind he composed relatively few works over a quite a long period of time?


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## Mahlerian

elgars ghost said:


> Does anyone have any ideas as to why Berg stopped using opus numbers after Wozzeck (op. 7)? Did he think issuing opus numbers was an unnecessary bit of frippery bearing in mind he composed relatively few works over a quite a long period of time?


I don't know. His main works after that point were the Chamber Concerto, the Lyric Suite, the Violin Concerto, and Lulu, so it would only have gone another 4 opuses up anyway (unless he were to give his second setting of "Schliesse mir die Augen beide" or the orchestrated version of Seven Early Songs opus numbers).

Even Webern's numbers went all the way up to 30, and there are plenty of works he didn't publish. Schoenberg's go up to 50, and he wrote a good deal that isn't included in that (even relatively major works like Gurrelieder or Suite in the Old Style).


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## starthrower

Alban Berg in the Austrian military.


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## hpowders

The Berg Violin Concerto performed by Artur Grumiaux is recommended. Wonderful, moving performance!


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## Avey

Listened to the _Lyric Suite_ several times this past week. Something escapes me.

Anyone have some anecdotes or otherwise background material re this piece. I know many appreciate this work, so I am trying to understand it, not simply on form or technical prowess, but sentiment as well. Just interested what comes to mind first, when I mention this piece.


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## ahammel

Avey said:


> Listened to the _Lyric Suite_ several times this past week. Something escapes me.
> 
> Anyone have some anecdotes or otherwise background material re this piece. I know many appreciate this work, so I am trying to understand it, not simply on form or technical prowess, but sentiment as well. Just interested what comes to mind first, when I mention this piece.


It contains a lot of secret codes to do with his mistress, IIRC.


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## Mahlerian

Avey said:


> Listened to the _Lyric Suite_ several times this past week. Something escapes me.
> 
> Anyone have some anecdotes or otherwise background material re this piece. I know many appreciate this work, so I am trying to understand it, not simply on form or technical prowess, but sentiment as well. Just interested what comes to mind first, when I mention this piece.


The work charts an affair in great detail, from the meeting of the two lovers through to a confession of love and ending in the despair of their separation.

There is an alternate version of the final movement (taken from a manuscript Berg gave personally to the woman he was in love with), and it is a song setting. Listen to that movement at least.


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## elgar's ghost

A couple of questions for any Alban Berg aficionado:

Am I dreaming or do his Four Songs op. 2 appear to be under-represented when compared to many of the _jugendlieder_ or the _Seven Early Songs_? Any recommended recordings, please?

Have there ever been any piano/voice versions of his Five Orchestral Songs op. 4?

Thanks in advance for any replies.

:tiphat:


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## isorhythm

I've just bought tickets to _Lulu_ at the Met. I'm excited.


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## violadude

Alright, I know Alban Berg is considered the most accessible of the Second Viennese School composers because of the Romantic flavoring of his music. But I've been listening to a lot of Berg lately and to me he almost seems like the LEAST accessible of the SVS composers. There are a couple aspects to his music that make me say that. And they have to do with:

Texture: Most of the time, Berg's music is incredibly dense. I feel like there are always so many layers happening in his music at once and all of it is important somehow. Schoenberg's music can be fairly dense too, mostly in his earlier period. But the first time I heard Schoenberg's 5 Pieces for Orchestra, I could tell what was going on in most of the parts almost all the time. The first time I heard Berg's 3 Pieces for Orchestra I felt like I was completely lost in a sea of sound.

Rhythm: Berg's rhythm seems a lot freer to me than Schoenberg's or Webern's, whose rhythms tend to be a lot more metered.

Compare for example, Schoenberg's 3rd string quartet: 




to Berg's op. 3 String Quartet: 




The Schoenberg piece is very Classically textured, with a clear distinction between foreground and background, has a strongly pulsating meter throughout, and more unity between the parts.

The Berg on the other hand is beast-like in its dense, orchestral texture, the meter is barely audible for half of it, there are parts where foreground and background become completely blurred together, and there are wild 32nd note arppegios and scales flying every which direction and the instruments are almost all doing completely different things. He also uses extended technique far more frequently than Schoenberg. The Schoenberg by comparison is a light breeze compered to the uncontrollable hurricane of musical activity that the Berg unleashes. None of these comments are meant to be negative btw. They're both great pieces. But I think the Berg seems a lot more difficult.

As a side note, where the heck did Berg learn how to write so orchestrally for String Quartet? Did anyone write like this before Berg? I can't recall any one.


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## Mahlerian

I think you're right in all that you say, but overlook the possibility that the clarity in Schoenberg and Webern is in fact part of what makes them seem "difficult" to some, because one is less able to hear the music through the lens of Strauss, as a wall of pleasurable sound (no offense meant to either Strauss or Berg, both of whom have a lot more going on than that). I would wager, for example, that very few would blink an eye at Schoenberg's own full orchestra arrangement of the Chamber Symphony, while many even today find the harmonies of the original extremely harsh when completely exposed and played by soloistic chamber ensemble.

The sense of pulse and meter in Schoenberg's music is usually very strong, although it is not usually notated as Stravinsky or Bartok would have, with shifting meters, so the accents frequently run against the meter. Berg's music far more frequently blurs the meter entirely, as you said. Perhaps that's one of the things that makes him a more natural and flexible opera composer than Schoenberg.

As for the string quartet texture, I remember hearing a movement from the string quartet version of the Lyric Suite at random once, and being convinced that it had to be the string orchestra arrangement, because it sounded so rich and full.


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## SeptimalTritone

On the other hand, the quite sparse Berg Violin Concerto is perhaps the most popular 12-tone piece of them all.

But you don't hear the very dense lyric suite talked about among beginners nearly as much...

Explain it to me guys!!!


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## Woodduck

violadude said:


> Alright, I know Alban Berg is considered the most accessible of the Second Viennese School composers because of the Romantic flavoring of his music. But I've been listening to a lot of Berg lately and to me he almost seems like the LEAST accessible of the SVS composers. There are a couple aspects to his music that make me say that. And they have to do with:
> 
> Texture: Most of the time, Berg's music is incredibly dense. I feel like there are always so many layers happening in his music at once and all of it is important somehow. Schoenberg's music can be fairly dense too, mostly in his earlier period. But the first time I heard Schoenberg's 5 Pieces for Orchestra, I could tell what was going on in most of the parts almost all the time. The first time I heard Berg's 3 Pieces for Orchestra I felt like I was completely lost in a sea of sound.
> 
> Rhythm: Berg's rhythm seems a lot freer to me than Schoenberg's or Webern's, whose rhythms tend to be a lot more metered.
> 
> Compare for example, Schoenberg's 3rd string quartet:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> to Berg's op. 3 String Quartet:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Schoenberg piece is very Classically textured, with a clear distinction between foreground and background, has a strongly pulsating meter throughout, and more unity between the parts.
> 
> The Berg on the other hand is beast-like in its dense, orchestral texture, the meter is barely audible for half of it, there are parts where foreground and background become completely blurred together, and there are wild 32nd note arppegios and scales flying every which direction and the instruments are almost all doing completely different things. He also uses extended technique far more frequently than Schoenberg. The Schoenberg by comparison is a light breeze compered to the uncontrollable hurricane of musical activity that the Berg unleashes. None of these comments are meant to be negative btw. They're both great pieces. But I think the Berg seems a lot more difficult.
> 
> As a side note, where the heck did Berg learn how to write so orchestrally for String Quartet? Did anyone write like this before Berg? I can't recall any one.


Just a general impression: Berg feels more Romantic - more moody and atmospheric. All that density provides a certain sensation of plushy richness, an "oceanic" sensuality that Tristanesque temperaments can wade happily into. 12-tone Schoenberg, leaving Wagner (and his own Wagnerian youth) farther behind, feels more austere, more severe and "no-nonsense," sometimes aggressively so. Of course this is a generalization which doesn't always apply - hence, I suppose, the relative popularity of Schoenberg's luxuriantly scored concertos. I suspect most people are more comfortable with the former group of sensations, and find Berg more recognizably emotive. Musicians, on the other hand, are more attentive to structure and to Schoenberg's more explicit and exposed method. Webern, from a similar standpoint, would appeal to the musically sophisticated, but be too pared down (again in his serial works, not his early, Romantic ones) for a broad audience.

I listen from both points of view, and tend to prefer the extreme cases: I like the luxuriant Romanticism in Berg - its fin-de-siecle, smoke-filled-room decadence - and can also savor the terseness of Webern, but generally find post-Pierrot Schoenberg the least accessible (or at least likable) of the three composers. I'd say it's a matter of our temperament and what we're most attracted to in music.


----------



## starthrower

I've never been crazy about the Berg violin concerto. I much prefer Schoenberg's. I like his opera more, too. I don't find the Lyric Suite to be that accessible. I still need more time listening to it. I've yet to pick up the Schoenberg string quartets, but I like Webern's string works.


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## Mahlerian

starthrower said:


> I've never been crazy about the Berg violin concerto. I much prefer Schoenberg's. I like his opera more, too. I don't find the Lyric Suite to be that accessible. I still need more time listening to it. *I've yet to pick up the Schoenberg string quartets*, but I like Webern's string works.


*GET THEM NOW!*

fillerfillerfillerfillerfillerfiller


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## brotagonist

Shame! That's a lot of great music you've missed. I admit that I didn't get heavily into Berg until after Mahler, but Schoenberg's SQs were among the first classical pieces I ever got into, when I was about 18-20 years of age.


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## brotagonist

There are a lot of recordings available, but you can't go wrong with the LaSalle Quartet's Schoenberg SQs (together with Webern and Berg). They have been reissued with the addition of Zemlinsky, too. I'm sure you could find a set for very little cost.

If you want to spend a little more—and get quite a lot of additional music, too—the Schoenberg Quartet's 5CD set is a real gem.

I have both sets (minus the Zemlinsky).


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## starthrower

Mahlerian said:


> *GET THEM NOW!*
> 
> fillerfillerfillerfillerfillerfiller


Ha! I've been getting a lot of stuff now. Playing catch up is a bitch! I'll get to them eventually.


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## starthrower

brotagonist said:


> There are a lot of recordings available, but you can't go wrong with the LaSalle Quartet's Schoenberg SQs (together with Webern and Berg). They have been reissued with the addition of Zemlinsky, too. I'm sure you could find a set for very little cost.
> 
> If you want to spend a little more-and get quite a lot of additional music, too-the Schoenberg Quartet's 5CD set is a real gem.
> 
> I have both sets (minus the Zemlinsky).


I have Zemlinsky 3 & 4 by the Artis Quartett. I really like their sound, and the Nimbus recordings are superb. I'll be picking up their Webern, and Wellesz recordings on Nimbus as well. I'm not so sure about the Schoenberg Quartet? They like slow tempos and they have a romantic approach that makes my attention wander. I prefer a more rigorous and muscular style. But I really do love all of these modern Viennese and German string quartets. I just bought Hartmann's quartets, and I want to pick up Krenek's by the Petersen Quartet. The Hartmann disc also includes an Eisler quartet. I also bought volume one of Rihm's quartets. I better get busy listening!


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## LHB

Which is the best of the three Lulu recordings?


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## brotagonist

I have long been interested in the Artis versions. I have, like you, just spent a bit too much in the past months (years! ) to add them now. I've already got about 4 purchases lined up for 2016—and I'm trying very hard not to get them until then :lol:

Interesting! I ought to give Hartmann, Eisler, Krenek and Rihm's SQs a listen! I am very fond of these "modern Viennese and German string quartets," too!

In defense of the Schoenberg Quartet's Schoenberg: don't you think that Schoenberg was romantic? But, yes, I know what you mean, I think. Another way to hear 12-tone is angular and sharp. I like both.


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## brotagonist

LHB said:


> Which is the best of the three Lulu recordings?


I don't know. In the LP era, I had the Böhm, but now I have the Boulez with Stratas. I like Boulez, of course, but I absulutely had to have a version with the completed third act. I am thrilled with the Boulez recording (which I just finished listening to two weeks ago). I am not familiar with the third interpretation. Actually, not including the DVDs, are there not at least four? Hamburg (on Angel) and the one on Chandos, too?


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## starthrower

brotagonist said:


> Interesting! I ought to give Hartmann, Eisler, Krenek and Rihm's SQs a listen! I am very fond of these "modern Viennese and German string quartets," too!


I've been listening to these at Naxos Music Library. And I found Rihm no. 3 on YouTube. Rihm definitely uses more abrasive tones and techniques than the older Viennese quartets. I just listened to Krenek's quartets last night and I think they're terrific. Listen to the Wellesz disc with three of his quartets. Those are beautiful.


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## brotagonist

Oh, gosh. When am I going to do all of this  And Gouldanian is awaiting my comments on another thread this very minute :lol: I don't know what time zone you guys are in, but it's time for my bedtime story.

I have NML through the library. Thanks for the tip! h/t


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## dgee

LHB said:


> Which is the best of the three Lulu recordings?


I think you could go straight to the Glyndebourne DVD with Christine Schaeffer


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## Dim7

Mahlerian said:


> *GET THEM NOW!*
> 
> fillerfillerfillerfillerfillerfiller


Use the space method, instead of filler!


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## Mahlerian

dgee said:


> I think you could go straight to the Glyndebourne DVD with Christine Schaeffer


Agreed. It's a fantastic performance. I like the Boulez recording too, but that DVD is fantastic all around.


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## Mahlerian

violadude said:


> As a side note, where the heck did Berg learn how to write so orchestrally for String Quartet? Did anyone write like this before Berg? I can't recall any one.


I've put bit more thought into this issue since yesterday, and realized that (with some level of simplification) one could think of Berg as a composer who thought orchestrally even when working on a chamber work, while Schoenberg thought in terms of an enlarged chamber ensemble even when composing for full orchestra.

Listening to Verbey's orchestration of Berg's piano sonata, for example, one would not imagine that it was originally written as a piano piece. It sounds, instead, like a lost cousin to the Three Orchestral Pieces of several years later.


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## isorhythm

I'm about to head over to the Met to see _Lulu_. Unfortunately I didn't sleep well last night and worry I might find it hard to focus, but I'll drink some coffee on the way.

I'll probably report back tomorrow.


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## isorhythm

Well, all the rave reviews are right - it was spectacular. At the very beginning I was worried that William Kentridge's collage-like images projected across the whole stage more or less continuously were going to be too much, but the effect was seamlessly integrated with the music and acting and really heightened the opera's dreamlike, hallucinatory feeling. Marlis Petersen was of course great.

The only _slightly_ weak point for me was Daniel Brenna as Alwa; his voice is nondescript and the character came across as more of a milquetoast than he should, I think.

Though I'd listened to parts of _Lulu _before, I'd never sat through the whole thing, and I was really blown away. I probably don't need to spend a lot of time in the Alban Berg thread explaining that _Lulu_ is good, but wow. I can't remember the last time a concert of any kind affected me so strongly.

The house was near-full, the audience younger than typical for the Met, and the applause raucous - very encouraging.


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## Janspe

I can't get enough of Berg's _Kammerkonzert_ for piano, violin and 13 wind instruments - it's such a stunning piece. I keep coming back to it time after time...

Listening to my favourite recording now, by Mitsuko Uchida and Christian Tetzlaff, with Pierre Boulez and the Ensemble Intercontemporain. Fantastic stuff!


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## juliante

You guys have successfully given me all the support and advice i needed on my journey from a solely classical / early romantic / Brahms / baroque first couple of years to then being able to love Sibelius and then Mahler...with some effort followed by ongoing huge reward. So now for Berg... I got hold of a copy of the violin concerto with Mutter. But what am i listening for here? The first movement left me unmoved, the second movement I definitely was getting interested...but just on an emotional level. I guess (but could be completely wrong...) that i am NOT looking for development, variations, counterpoint or much in the way of melody. And i still don’t get what harmony is really, but i have a feeling there ain’t much of that either. To be clear - i am not exasperated or antagonistic, just keen to enjoy this piece - it’s high on TC top string concerto poll...so it’s good enough for me. The responses may well be - just get on with it and keep at it - which is fine...but if there anyone has any pointers, much appreciated. :tiphat:


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## isorhythm

The piece is indeed based on melody, counterpoint, harmony and the development thereof, although the language may take some getting used to.

I love Berg, but in my opinion the violin concerto is a little overrated and might not be the best place to start. I would try the Lulu Suite first.


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## juliante

Glad I asked..! Thanks. Will check out lulu.


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## isorhythm

I recommend starting with the suite, rather than the three-hour opera...a lot more manageable, and highlights all the best tunes.


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## Mahlerian

juliante said:


> You guys have successfully given me all the support and advice i needed on my journey from a solely classical / early romantic / Brahms / baroque first couple of years to then being able to love Sibelius and then Mahler...with some effort followed by ongoing huge reward. So now for Berg... I got hold of a copy of the violin concerto with Mutter. But what am i listening for here? The first movement left me unmoved, the second movement I definitely was getting interested...but just on an emotional level. I guess (but could be completely wrong...) that i am NOT looking for development, variations, counterpoint or much in the way of melody. And i still don't get what harmony is really, but i have a feeling there ain't much of that either. To be clear - i am not exasperated or antagonistic, just keen to enjoy this piece - it's high on TC top string concerto poll...so it's good enough for me. The responses may well be - just get on with it and keep at it - which is fine...but if there anyone has any pointers, much appreciated. :tiphat:


Can you read music? I could prepare a guide to the most important motifs in the work. If not, I'll try to just give timings with reference to a Youtube video.


----------



## hpowders

Place the Mutter aside, juliante. Get hold of the Arthur Grumiaux performance of the Berg Violin Concerto. Now THAT'S music!! If Anne-Sophie Mutter isn't the most over-rated violinist who ever lived, I don't know who is!


----------



## juliante

Mahlerian said:


> Can you read music? I could prepare a guide to the most important motifs in the work. If not, I'll try to just give timings with reference to a Youtube video.


No I can't read music. So thanks re YouTube.


----------



## juliante

hpowders said:


> Place the Mutter aside, juliante. Get hold of the Arthur Grumiaux performance of the Berg Violin Concerto. Now THAT'S music!! If Anne-Sophie Mutter isn't the most over-rated violinist who ever lived, I don't know who is!


Ok thanks for that. One or two people on amazon seemed keen. I myself just picked it up in a charity shop. She certainly looks quite pleased with herself in the cover. Is she histrionic on her playing?


----------



## Mahlerian

Okay, so this was done on one run-through just now, but I know the piece pretty well and I had the score, so I hope I got most of the important aspects. The Bach chorale Berg references can be found here.

With reference to this performance:






*First movement*
_Section one, Adagio (Introduction)_

1:39 (Beginning) Arpeggios, slow opening
2:44 Violin melody begins to take shape and develop
3:39 First development of theme (buh-buh-buh-BUM)
5:00 Second development of theme, return to arpeggios of opening

_Section two, Allegro (Scherzo)_

6:00 Landler theme
7:44 Trio 1
8:37 Trio 2
9:38 Landler theme, modified return
10:20 This figure high in the violin will return at the close of mvt 2
11:49 Coda

*Second Movement*
_Section one, Allegro (March and cadenza)_

12:28 Opening, cadenza, motif in orchestra derived from argeggiated figures
13:21 Limping march rhythm takes over, violin alternates between march and free cadenza
14:20 Note descending whole tones in violin, more tranquil mood
15:51 Hint at chorale theme with ascending whole tones
17:27 Violent opening and march return
18:41 Climax

_Section two, Adagio (Chorale)_

19:19 Chorale theme in violin, free accompaniment
19:50 Chorale theme in winds, Bach's accompaniment in dialogue with free interjections
20:57 Free fantasia on chorale
22:49 Climax, chorale theme in brass
24:02 Arpeggios of opening return
24:17 Motif from the end of the first movement returns

24:54 Coda, begins with chorale in winds, freely harmonized, rhapsodic violin
26:12 Arpeggios, (very faint in this version)


----------



## GreenMamba

juliante said:


> Ok thanks for that. One or two people on amazon seemed keen. I myself just picked it up in a charity shop. She certainly looks quite pleased with herself in the cover. Is she histrionic on her playing?


Ask 10 people for the best recording, you get 11 answers. If you don't like Mutter/Levine then, by all means, try another. But don't let hpowders mislead you: Mutter is good.


----------



## MrTortoise

Mahlerian said:


> Okay, so this was done on one run-through just now, but I know the piece pretty well and I had the score, so I hope I got most of the important aspects. The Bach chorale Berg references can be found here.
> 
> With reference to this performance:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *First movement*
> _Section one, Adagio (Introduction)_
> 
> 1:39 (Beginning) Arpeggios, slow opening
> 2:44 Violin melody begins to take shape and develop
> 3:39 First development of theme (buh-buh-buh-BUM)
> 5:00 Second development of theme, return to arpeggios of opening
> 
> _Section two, Allegro (Scherzo)_
> 
> 6:00 Landler theme
> 7:44 Trio 1
> 8:37 Trio 2
> 9:38 Landler theme, modified return
> 10:20 This figure high in the violin will return at the close of mvt 2
> 11:49 Coda
> 
> *Second Movement*
> _Section one, Allegro (March and cadenza)_
> 
> 12:28 Opening, cadenza, motif in orchestra derived from argeggiated figures
> 13:21 Limping march rhythm takes over, violin alternates between march and free cadenza
> 14:20 Note descending whole tones in violin, more tranquil mood
> 15:51 Hint at chorale theme with ascending whole tones
> 17:27 Violent opening and march return
> 18:41 Climax
> 
> _Section two, Adagio (Chorale)_
> 
> 19:19 Chorale theme in violin, free accompaniment
> 19:50 Chorale theme in winds, Bach's accompaniment in dialogue with free interjections
> 20:57 Free fantasia on chorale
> 22:49 Climax, chorale theme in brass
> 24:02 Arpeggios of opening return
> 24:17 Motif from the end of the first movement returns
> 
> 24:54 Coda, begins with chorale in winds, freely harmonized, rhapsodic violin
> 26:12 Arpeggios, (very faint in this version)


Buy that man his choice of libation for those annotations! :tiphat:


----------



## juliante

Mahlerian said:


> Okay, so this was done on one run-through just now, but I know the piece pretty well and I had the score, so I hope I got most of the important aspects. The Bach chorale Berg references can be found here.
> 
> With reference to this performance:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *First movement*
> _Section one, Adagio (Introduction)_
> 
> 1:39 (Beginning) Arpeggios, slow opening
> 2:44 Violin melody begins to take shape and develop
> 3:39 First development of theme (buh-buh-buh-BUM)
> 5:00 Second development of theme, return to arpeggios of opening
> 
> _Section two, Allegro (Scherzo)_
> 
> 6:00 Landler theme
> 7:44 Trio 1
> 8:37 Trio 2
> 9:38 Landler theme, modified return
> 10:20 This figure high in the violin will return at the close of mvt 2
> 11:49 Coda
> 
> *Second Movement*
> _Section one, Allegro (March and cadenza)_
> 
> 12:28 Opening, cadenza, motif in orchestra derived from argeggiated figures
> 13:21 Limping march rhythm takes over, violin alternates between march and free cadenza
> 14:20 Note descending whole tones in violin, more tranquil mood
> 15:51 Hint at chorale theme with ascending whole tones
> 17:27 Violent opening and march return
> 18:41 Climax
> 
> _Section two, Adagio (Chorale)_
> 
> 19:19 Chorale theme in violin, free accompaniment
> 19:50 Chorale theme in winds, Bach's accompaniment in dialogue with free interjections
> 20:57 Free fantasia on chorale
> 22:49 Climax, chorale theme in brass
> 24:02 Arpeggios of opening return
> 24:17 Motif from the end of the first movement returns
> 
> 24:54 Coda, begins with chorale in winds, freely harmonized, rhapsodic violin
> 26:12 Arpeggios, (very faint in this version)


Thankyou very much for this! Not had chance to follow yet but will and will feedback. I owe u a libation...


----------



## Klassic

hpowders said:


> Place the Mutter aside, juliante. Get hold of the Arthur Grumiaux performance of the Berg Violin Concerto. Now THAT'S music!! If Anne-Sophie Mutter isn't the most over-rated violinist who ever lived, I don't know who is!


*powders* you're way off base here. Mutter is a superb expressionist and technician.


----------



## Klassic

Mahlerian said:


> Okay, so this was done on one run-through just now, but I know the piece pretty well and I had the score, so I hope I got most of the important aspects. The Bach chorale Berg references can be found here.
> 
> With reference to this performance:
> 
> *First movement*
> _Section one, Adagio (Introduction)_
> 
> 1:39 (Beginning) Arpeggios, slow opening
> 2:44 Violin melody begins to take shape and develop
> 3:39 First development of theme (buh-buh-buh-BUM)
> 5:00 Second development of theme, return to arpeggios of opening
> 
> _Section two, Allegro (Scherzo)_
> 
> 6:00 Landler theme
> 7:44 Trio 1
> 8:37 Trio 2
> 9:38 Landler theme, modified return
> 10:20 This figure high in the violin will return at the close of mvt 2
> 11:49 Coda
> 
> *Second Movement*
> _Section one, Allegro (March and cadenza)_
> 
> 12:28 Opening, cadenza, motif in orchestra derived from argeggiated figures
> 13:21 Limping march rhythm takes over, violin alternates between march and free cadenza
> 14:20 Note descending whole tones in violin, more tranquil mood
> 15:51 Hint at chorale theme with ascending whole tones
> 17:27 Violent opening and march return
> 18:41 Climax
> 
> _Section two, Adagio (Chorale)_
> 
> 19:19 Chorale theme in violin, free accompaniment
> 19:50 Chorale theme in winds, Bach's accompaniment in dialogue with free interjections
> 20:57 Free fantasia on chorale
> 22:49 Climax, chorale theme in brass
> 24:02 Arpeggios of opening return
> 24:17 Motif from the end of the first movement returns
> 
> 24:54 Coda, begins with chorale in winds, freely harmonized, rhapsodic violin
> 26:12 Arpeggios, (very faint in this version)


Dude, you constantly amaze me. My guess is that you're a professor of music theory.


----------



## hpowders

Klassic said:


> *powders* you're way off base here. Mutter is a superb expressionist and technician.


She had a fine Sibelius with Previn. I find her vibrato "annoying".


----------



## hpowders

GreenMamba said:


> Ask 10 people for the best recording, you get 11 answers. If you don't like Mutter/Levine then, by all means, try another. But don't let hpowders mislead you: Mutter is good.


After you play the Grumiaux, you will discover I was correct!!


----------



## hpowders

juliante said:


> Ok thanks for that. One or two people on amazon seemed keen. I myself just picked it up in a charity shop. She certainly looks quite pleased with herself in the cover. Is she histrionic on her playing?


It's an okay version, but if you want a really solid, magnificent performance my advice is to pick up the Grumiaux.


----------



## Manxfeeder

isorhythm said:


> I would try the Lulu Suite first.


Speaking as one of the few people whom Berg doesn't quite click with, I'd say that's a good recommendation. I just got Boulez's recording, and I've been listening to it frequently over the past couple weeks. I haven't done that with any other Berg piece.


----------



## isorhythm

Manxfeeder said:


> Speaking as one of the few people whom Berg doesn't quite click with, I'd say that's a good recommendation. I just got Boulez's recording, and I've been listening to it frequently over the past couple weeks. I haven't done that with any other Berg piece.


I like that recording, and I like Abbado's even better.


----------



## hpowders

GreenMamba said:


> Ask 10 people for the best recording, you get 11 answers. If you don't like Mutter/Levine then, by all means, try another. But don't let hpowders mislead you: Mutter is good.


If no other performances were available, Mutter would be good, I agree.

Grumiaux is the man in this music. Legendary performance.


----------



## Composer Kid

Berg refused to let the twelve tone system dampen his emotional expressivity, making him my favorite of the 2nd Viennese School. My thought while watching Wozzeck was... "how the hell can one man write this." Only Berg. Other favorites are the Lyric Suite and the beloved Violin Concerto.


----------



## millionrainbows

The Lyric Suite has always seemed hard-core opaque to me, especially since it's supposed to be expressing Berg's romantic yearnings. I don't get it yet.
Now, Wozzeck I can understand how it fits. It's the first opera I ever bought, or considered seriously, and it works for me, since the "opacity" of the 12-tone style fits right in with my incomprehension of opera.


----------



## flamencosketches

I just listened to the great violin concerto dedicated to Alma Mahler's dead daughter a couple hours ago, Itzhak Perlman with Seiji Ozawa and the Boston Symphony. One could hardly tell it was a 12-tone work, Strauss or Scriabin could have written it. But yes, it was great. I really like the Lyric Suite too, and don't find it "opaque" much compared to the works of Schoenberg. My favorite work of his is the Op.1 Piano Sonata. Sounds like Tristan und Isolde compressed into a 12 minute solo piano work, or a middle-period Scriabin sonata only more Germanic, which is as amazing as it sounds. 

I haven't heard any of Wozzeck. The extremely depressing premise is kind of deterring.


----------



## millionrainbows

Maybe you'd like Lulu, since the premise is more attractive. My favorite Berg work is also the Op. 1 Sonata. I like his lieder, too, even the Jungenlieder he submitted to Schoenberg in order to study with him. The Second Viennese were all primarily lieder writers, so they must be approached this way.

I highly suggest this box:


----------



## flamencosketches

Webern's lieder are certainly incredible. I have no doubt Berg's are too. 

That looks like a worthy box. I'm still working my way through the Webern box on Sony Classical put together by Pierre Boulez. Loving every bit of it so far. But next that one may be in order.


----------



## Manxfeeder

flamencosketches said:


> I haven't heard any of Wozzeck. The extremely depressing premise is kind of deterring.


I guess it is depressing, but what I hear in it is more of a commentary on modern times. I haven't gone through it in a while, so I'm writing off the top of my head (so I'm willing to be corrected). but to me, it's more fatalistic in that the particular world they live in can't help but produce what happens to them. If you look at the opera as beginning in the third act, ending with the boy hearing that his mother is dead, then see the first act as the boy grown up and then repeating the mistakes of his father, it pictures the problems that accompany survivors of abuse.

One theme (or tetrachord motto) that goes through the opera is "Wir arme Leut," or we poor people (however you translate that), most strikingly sung by Maria as a whole-tone utterance amidst the 12-tone writing. That takes it from depressing and into pathos.


----------



## Janspe

One of my favourite Berg pieces is the stunning _Kammerkonzert_ for piano, violin and 13 wind instruments. It keeps revealing more and more of its secrets as I revisit it every now and then.


----------



## flamencosketches

^ That sounds great. I'm going to look that up soon. Right now, I am listening to the incredible Violin Concerto. I've been listening to Schoenberg's VC quite a bit too, both are seriously mind blowing, but in different ways.

Alban Berg definitely seems to have written the most beautiful music to come out of the Second Vienna School. That's one thing I have been starting to love about this movement in music; the three major figures are all about as far apart from each other as you could possibly ask for, with the only unifying thread being the 12-tone technique. I'm quite obsessed with all three at the moment. I wish my brain was less all-over-the-place with music sometimes.


----------



## Janspe

flamencosketches said:


> That's one thing I have been starting to love about this movement in music; the three major figures are all about as far apart from each other as you could possibly ask for, with the only unifying thread being the 12-tone technique. I'm quite obsessed with all three at the moment. I wish my brain was less all-over-the-place with music sometimes.


Welcome to the club. I sold my soul to the holy Viennese trinity a few years ago and haven't looked back since. I've now listened to literally all of their works - or, better put: everything I could get my hands on, which is basically everything. There are so many hidden gems, especially in Schoenberg's and Webern's outputs - Berg is pretty well covered in the standard repertoire.

I couldn't imagine my life without these three composers. How could one survive without access to the _Erwartung_, or the Webern cantatas, or _Lulu_? Or how about all of the string quartets they wrote, or even the piano pieces? Let alone the countless songs! There's so much to enjoy...


----------



## flamencosketches

Yes indeed... so far Webern is who has captured my passion to the greatest degree. I have been listening to Pierre Boulez's (and friends'... many friends :lol: ) first complete Webern traversal recorded for Sony in the '60s all month. Berg I have long appreciated. Schoenberg is a little bit moreso eluding my interests, but I am discovering his genius bit by bit. The Klavierstücke and the Violin Concerto so far are kindling my obsession. There is so much left to discover and I'd like to leave it that way, I'm a young cat with a lot of life ahead of me, and I have a lot on my plate with Webern, Berg, and the dozens of other completely different composers who currently keep my life interesting. :lol:

For example, I still have heard neither of Berg's operas... I should probably rectify this with a complete recording of Wozzeck, no? Who has made a good CD?


----------



## paulbest

Yes indeed, I too am a devotee of the 3 masters of the new Viennese music. I have nearly all available recordings of the 3, provided they are high quality recordings. I only seek 1st class recordings of these 3 difficult composers. 
Though I love Schoenberg, Berg, I am more mesmerized by Webern
Paul
The Webernian
new Orleans


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## flamencosketches

To whoever recommended the Chamber Concerto, thank you. It's a beautiful work. 

What is it about Berg's music that makes it so much more harmonically rich (and accessible) than his Second Vienna classmates? His music is no less 12-tone/atonal than Webern's or Schoenberg's, correct? His music is easy listening compared to the two.

Still wondering if anyone has a recommendation for Wozzeck. May just pull the trigger on the Abbado. I like what I heard. (Or the Barenboim, which I haven't heard, but it is dirt cheap).


----------



## paulbest

flamencosketches said:


> To whoever recommended the Chamber Concerto, thank you. It's a beautiful work.
> 
> What is it about Berg's music that makes it so much more harmonically rich (and accessible) than his Second Vienna classmates? His music is no less 12-tone/atonal than Webern's or Schoenberg's, correct? His music is easy listening compared to the two.
> 
> Still wondering if anyone has a recommendation for Wozzeck. May just pull the trigger on the Abbado. I like what I heard. (Or the Barenboim, which I haven't heard, but it is dirt cheap).


Yes the Chamber Concerto is a real gem. 
On Wozzeck, another alternative to the major label offerings is these from House of Opera *bootleg* rippings fromvarious live radio broadcasts and such venues.
based on the samples offered. The cd 4648, Live Hamburg/1986 sounds like the winner of the bunch. I plan to order that cd, among others when I complete my list.
I would start with that recording 1st.
Then add others.
http://www.operapassion.com/opera-cd-s-berg.html


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## paulbest

If that's not enough choices for ya, here's more

https://www.premiereoperaintl.com/search.aspx?find=wozzeck


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## flamencosketches

Not too sure how I feel about spending money on a bootleg opera CD... in my other life I'm a big fan of the Grateful Dead and I would not feel right spending money on one of their bootlegs... that being said, I do know the value of a spontaneous live recording. I'll keep it in mind on your recommendation.


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## paulbest

Manxfeeder said:


> I guess it is depressing, but what I hear in it is more of a commentary on modern times. I haven't gone through it in a while, so I'm writing off the top of my head (so I'm willing to be corrected). but to me, it's more fatalistic in that the particular world they live in can't help but produce what happens to them. If you look at the opera as beginning in the third act, ending with the boy hearing that his mother is dead, then see the first act as the boy grown up and then repeating the mistakes of his father, it pictures the problems that accompany survivors of abuse.
> 
> One theme (or tetrachord motto) that goes through the opera is "Wir arme Leut," or we poor people (however you translate that), most strikingly sung by Maria as a whole-tone utterance amidst the 12-tone writing. That takes it from depressing and into pathos.


Excellent insight, This is what I came to CT for, great comments on masterpieces in my favs.

This is how I hear Berg's operas, as commentary of mod day issues, the complexities, the neurosis, caught/trapped in struggles beyond our control. We get a artist hawk eye view of his time, and speaks to us the same issues of our day. 
On the Lyric suite, having heard it the other day, I subsequently searched every available/rare recording. Powerful masterpiece there. As is all Berg.


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## paulbest

flamencosketches said:


> Not too sure how I feel about spending money on a bootleg opera CD... in my other life I'm a big fan of the Grateful Dead and I would not feel right spending money on one of their bootlegs... that being said, I do know the value of a spontaneous live recording. I'll keep it in mind on your recommendation.


I understand. But its not really bootleg, as in illegal ripping, I think that site gathers public available recordings. Many, if not all, live radio broadcasts. Free for the public domain to use as will.


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## flamencosketches

paulbest said:


> I understand. But its not really bootleg, as in illegal ripping, I think that site gathers public available recordings. Many, if not all, live radio broadcasts. Free for the public domain to use as will.


Hmm that is kind of a different story. I would imagine a good remaster is worth paying for.


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## starthrower

Brilliant Classics re-issued a good performance of Wozzeck at a very low price. It's conducted by Herbert Kegel. They also re-issued Kegel's recording of Parsifal. I have both of these. But honestly, I have a tough time getting through Berg's operas. The music is great, but the subject matter is another story. Lots of shouting and hysteria.


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## flamencosketches

starthrower said:


> Brilliant Classics re-issued a good performance of Wozzeck at a very low price. It's conducted by Herbert Kegel. They also re-issued Kegel's recording of Parsifal. I have both of these. But honestly, I have a tough time getting through Berg's operas. The music is great, but the subject matter is another story. Lots of shouting and hysteria.


That's what I'm worried about :lol: i can only subject my brain to so much torture/disturbance.


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## NLAdriaan

millionrainbows said:


> Maybe you'd like Lulu, since the premise is more attractive. My favorite Berg work is also the Op. 1 Sonata. I like his lieder, too, even the Jungenlieder he submitted to Schoenberg in order to study with him. The Second Viennese were all primarily lieder writers, so they must be approached this way.
> 
> I highly suggest this box:


Wow, this box is a must have for everyone newly interested in Berg. Everything is there and all in top notch performances. And it is an absolute bargain at Amazon.

For Wozzeck, I have von Dohnanyi (coupled with Schonberg's Erwartung!) but Abbado is probably a bit better. I recently got Wozzeck by Carlos Kleiber from Opera Depot, this would be a nice extra next to this collection.


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## flamencosketches

I might just jump on that box actually. Forgot it was so cheap!


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## millionrainbows

This recording of Wozzeck was the first one I had, and it was released as a 2-LP box on Columbia Masterworks. I always trusted Columbia for well-engineered recordings and good vinyl pressings. This was recorded in Britain on a BBC soundstage, so it's not really a "performance" with an audience. Some Germans laughingly refer to it as the "dry Wozzeck," because the sound is so direct and lacking the reverberation usually experienced on an opera house stage.
You can't go wrong with Boulez, either.



​


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## millionrainbows

NLAdriaan said:


> Wow, this box is a must have for everyone newly interested in Berg. Everything is there and all in top notch performances. And it is an absolute bargain at Amazon.
> 
> For Wozzeck, I have von Dohnanyi (coupled with Schonberg's Erwartung!) but Abbado is probably a bit better. I recently got Wozzeck by Carlos Kleiber from Opera Depot, this would be a nice extra next to this collection.


I of course agree about the box. Most illuminating for me was access to the Seven Early Songs (1905-08), and the subsequent 1928 orchestration of them. The song 'Schilflied' is especially interesting from a harmonic point of view, as it shows Berg's use of the whole-tone scale as a way of entry into the area of 'free atonality.' If you understand this, you can then see how it led to the 12-tone idea.
The Whole-tone scale is a six-note scale, of which there are only two (6+6=12). It is a hexad, and divides the octave at the tritone, a symmetrical interval which retains its identity under inversion; it is symmetrical through-and through, using whole tones, major thirds, and tritones; it retains its structure on any transposition. These are all very 'serial' ideas.


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## NLAdriaan

millionrainbows said:


> I of course agree about the box. Most illuminating for me was access to the Seven Early Songs (1905-08), and the subsequent 1928 orchestration of them. The song 'Schilflied' is especially interesting from a harmonic point of view, as it shows Berg's use of the whole-tone scale as a way of entry into the area of 'free atonality.' If you understand this, you can then see how it led to the 12-tone idea.
> The Whole-tone scale is a six-note scale, of which there are only two (6+6=12). It is a hexad, and divides the octave at the tritone, a symmetrical interval which retains its identity under inversion; it is symmetrical through-and through, using whole tones, major thirds, and tritones; it retains its structure on any transposition. These are all very 'serial' ideas.


Thx for this illuminating information! The Fruhe Lieder in my Berg collection are on this disc,









Which underlines your statement about Boulez. I am listening to them with fresh ears after your explanation.:tiphat:

My first Berg recording was Lulu on DG, also by Boulez, the first recording of the completed score. The ice-cold story, straight from the gutter, was quite something for me. The music is great. This recording is also in the box you suggested.


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## paulbest

Great new vid just posted on YT today
Berg;'s opus 5


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## flamencosketches

paulbest said:


> Great new vid just posted on YT today
> Berg;'s opus 5


The op.5 pieces for clarinet and piano are beautiful and this is a great performance. Good call there.


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## millionrainbows

These Jugendieliedre (Songs from the Youth) are very interesting. These are the actual songs that Berg submitted to Schoenberg when applying to be his student. To me, they sound fully-formed already, as if Berg had already found his voice.


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## flamencosketches

Damn, that was really beautiful. It sounds like the young Berg must have been a big fan of Schumann, no?


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## flamencosketches

Are any of these Jugendlieder included with that DG Alban Berg box you previously recommended to me? If not I may need to consider getting that CD.


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## 89Koechel

flamenco - "the three major figures … far apart" - Well, maybe not so much, as you might think. Here's a quote from an excellent, old book I bought, in college (as it considers Berg & Webern) - "Convenient historical niches have been found for both: Berg has been described as an instinctual lyricist whose music links with tradition, while Webern has been seen as the intellectual, numerical abstractionist and the unrecognized avant-garde prophet. Like most such generalizations, these labels cover a rich reality with a thin tissue of truths. Over half of Webern's output is vocal, for example, and many aspects of his work are a deliberate re-casting of traditional patterns in a new aphoristic style often conceived in terms of an underlying lyricism. In certain ways, Berg's music is actually more independent of tradition. It is true that Berg did not take up Schoenberg's twelve-tone idea with as much enthusiasm as Webern, but on the other hand, Berg was the most numerologically inclined of the three; his works are full of the most elaborate - often arbitrary - number sequences, precise and fearful symmetries carried out in every dimension and domain. Berg was the kind of "instinctualist" who placed great faith in elaborate, mystical and arbitrary systems." … Well, maybe this, in part, explains just a BIT of the seeming-mysticism of the Violin Concerto … and the latter was also dedicated to Manon Gropius (daughter of Alma Mahler) after Manon died from polio. That death, also, truly SPURRED Berg to complete the Concerto, and we can all appreciate the results.


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## flamencosketches

I have read similar as well and agree with the conclusion, Berg being the numerology guy who puts arcane puzzles into his music that many prejudge Webern to be; and then Webern working more from a balance of tradition and intuition. In both cases the results are phenomenal. I still maintain that the music of the two is radically different, and even further so are each from their master Schoenberg's music. Regardless of similarities in technique, each has a totally individual voice. 

Anyway I'm glad we can both appreciate the phenomenal violin concerto, one of the greatest orchestral works of the century in my eyes. I'm sure he did Mrs. Mahler-Gropius proud.


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## flamencosketches

Snagged this for $26:









It was the last one. Price is up to $64 now


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## Janspe

Seeing a staged production of _Wozzeck_ was one of the highlights of this season for me in Helsinki. Never seen it before (I haven't done live opera for that long yet). It was really moving to finally hear the music live; it's really one of the very best vocal scores of Berg, or any composer.

I recently printed the libretto and will once again delve into the work soon...

If only I could see Lulu on an opera stage, now that would be something!


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## flamencosketches

I don't suppose you have that libretto in English too? Ideally side by side with the German... tall order I know


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## Janspe

flamencosketches said:


> I don't suppose you have that libretto in English too? Ideally side by side with the German... tall order I know


There are a few translations easily available, like *this PDF* from Chandos and *this regular web page version* from opera-arias.com, but neither one of these has the German version side by side I'm afraid. Maybe I'll bump into one at some point!


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## Barbebleu

flamencosketches said:


> Snagged this for $26:
> 
> View attachment 118274
> 
> 
> It was the last one. Price is up to $64 now


Are there two different boxes of this. The picture above says 8CD but the previous picture at post #103 shows 5CDs.


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## starthrower

I'm pretty sure it's 8 CDs. I don't know where that 5 image is from?
https://www.prestomusic.com/classical/products/7930922--the-alban-berg-collection
https://www.amazon.com/Alban-Berg-C...efix=alban+berg+collection,popular,162&sr=1-1

Under 30 dollars from US Amazon vendors.


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## millionrainbows

Mine is 8 discs also. I didn't notice that when I pasted the image from Amazon.


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## flamencosketches

Yeah, so the image on Amazon (where I got it from) says 5 CDs. Not sure what's up with that, so I suppose I was pleasantly surprised when I got it and it really included 8.


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## HerbertNorman

I don't know this composer that well and I would like to get to know him! Which work would you recommend to start off with?


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## flamencosketches

HerbertNorman said:


> I don't know this composer that well and I would like to get to know him! Which work would you recommend to start off with?


The first Berg piece I heard was the piano sonata, I was instantly hooked.






Other important pieces of his include the Lyric Suite, for string quartet:






Perhaps his greatest masterpiece, the Violin Concerto, is quite accessible:






Finally, if you like opera, you can't miss either of his phenomenal and groundbreaking works in this genre: _Wozzeck_ and _Lulu_.


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## starthrower

This is a great set for getting into Berg. It covers a number of his significant works and you can pick up this 2 CD set for under 3 dollars. https://www.amazon.com/Alban-Berg-P...alban+berg+EMI&qid=1579271802&s=music&sr=1-16

Both vendors selling this are reliable. I've ordered from each one a number of times.


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## flamencosketches

starthrower said:


> This is a great set for getting into Berg. It covers a number of his significant works and you can pick up this 2 CD set for under 3 dollars. https://www.amazon.com/Alban-Berg-P...alban+berg+EMI&qid=1579271802&s=music&sr=1-16
> 
> Both vendors selling this are reliable. I've ordered from each one a number of times.


Wow, that is so cheap. If I didn't already have these works 2+ times over I'd definitely jump on it.

I can also recommend the 8CD DG Alban Berg Collection box. I got it for about $20 and you get almost the complete major works.


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## Janspe

HerbertNorman said:


> I don't know this composer that well and I would like to get to know him! Which work would you recommend to start off with?


I think the _Violin Concerto_ is definitely the place to start. But don't wait too long to explore other scores, though they might feel a bit difficult at first: the amazing _Kammerkonzert_, the _Lyrische Suite_ and of course the operas _Wozzeck_ and _Lulu_. Unfortunately Berg's output is very small, but it makes it very easy to explore everything he wrote rather efficiently.


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## starthrower

Janspe said:


> I think the _Violin Concerto_ is definitely the place to start.


For some reason it took me a couple years to warm up to the violin concerto. Maybe I wasn't listening closely? But the three orchestra pieces, piano sonata, and seven early songs connected with me immediately. And the Lulu Suite is filled with brilliant music. The 12 tone string quartet is a bit more challenging. The operas are not for the faint at heart. I could never get through Lulu until I watched a DVD on YouTube. It was the Christine Schafer performance. Quite disturbing but it's a riveting performance.


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## HerbertNorman

Thanks you all 4 the valuable information , I listened to the violin concerto and the piano sonata ... I must say I quite liked the latter...


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## millionrainbows

The Piano Sonata Op. 1 is the place to start. It's still late-Romantic tonal, and can be followed if you've got a good ear. Plus, there's a Glenn Gould version.


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## flamencosketches

millionrainbows said:


> The Piano Sonata Op. 1 is the place to start. It's still late-Romantic tonal, and can be followed if you've got a good ear. Plus, there's a Glenn Gould version.


That's the first version I ever heard; it's very good. But I think I like Idil Biret just a little bit more here.


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## starthrower

Lulu Suite featuring Christine Schafer.


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## millionrainbows

flamencosketches said:


> That's the first version I ever heard; it's very good. But I think I like Idil Biret just a little bit more here.


Theo Verbey did an orchestration of it. I have a couple of versions.


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## flamencosketches

millionrainbows said:


> Theo Verbey did an orchestration of it. I have a couple of versions.


Sounds great. I think I also may have heard something about an arrangement for string quartet at one time, but I'd have to do some research.


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## jegreenwood

starthrower said:


> For some reason it took me a couple years to warm up to the violin concerto. Maybe I wasn't listening closely? But the three orchestra pieces, piano sonata, and seven early songs connected with me immediately. And the Lulu Suite is filled with brilliant music. The 12 tone string quartet is a bit more challenging. The operas are not for the faint at heart. I could never get through Lulu until I watched a DVD on YouTube. It was the Christine Schafer performance. Quite disturbing but it's a riveting performance.


I have that DVD. Agreed.


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## jegreenwood

millionrainbows said:


> The Piano Sonata Op. 1 is the place to start. It's still late-Romantic tonal, and can be followed if you've got a good ear. Plus, there's a Glenn Gould version.


I heard Uchida perform it live. Still stays with me.


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## flamencosketches

jegreenwood said:


> I heard Uchida perform it live. Still stays with me.


Jealous, she's a phenomenal pianist, though I remember being less than enthralled with her recording of that work. We'll have to give it another shot then.


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