# Composers with conterversal opinions?



## Emmnemms (Nov 3, 2009)

Ok, first of all, hello  i am a 16 year old saxophone/piano player, i live in oregon, and thats about it, oh yea, and my name is Emily, but i go by Emm.

Now that i am slightly introduced,

I have to do this huge midterm paper due monday! (i thought i had more time than i did)
So, i have decided to do a project entitled "seperating the man from the music" and its on whether a composers political/religious/any other opinions can be "over looked" so that you just enjoy the music that he has created.

I need some composers that had rather controversial opinons, such as Wagner, or karlheinz stockhausen.

If i can get the names of some composers, and possibly their greatest, or most known, piece, that would be great  
Thank you SO much in advance!
Emm


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## Lukecash12 (Sep 21, 2009)

Well, we had a bit of a discussion on that, and there's a few different names in this thread, so enjoy: http://www.talkclassical.com/6845-does-politics-spoil-your.html


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## Ignis Fatuus (Nov 25, 2008)

By controversial' you mean 'wrong by modern standards' or do you mean 'provoked controversy in their day?'

Well some vague examples that might help, here's a list of composers and the ACCUSATIONS levied against them.

Wagner - antisemitic
Richard Strauss - cares too much about money, didn't oppose the Nazi's enough
Vivaldi - lived with 2 women (scandalous at the time, but denied by him)
Tchaikovsky - had relations with a young boy
Schumann - addicted to sex, used prostitutes, and died of syphilis
Mussorgsky - alcoholic

Well, I'm not sure if this is useful to you are not. Hope it helps.

(also, purists please don't shout at me!)


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## Il Seraglio (Sep 14, 2009)

Ignis Fatuus said:


> Schumann - addicted to sex, used prostitutes, and died of syphilis


Funny... it's almost as if it was the "in" thing for artists and intellectuals of the romantic era to die of syphilis. Other individuals that spring to mind would be Lord Byron, Schubert and Nietzsche. I'm sure there are others.


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## Ignis Fatuus (Nov 25, 2008)

Il Seraglio said:


> Funny... it's almost as if it was the "in" thing for artists and intellectuals of the romantic era to die of syphilis. Other individuals that spring to mind would be Lord Byron, Schubert and Nietzsche. I'm sure there are others.


Nietsche too!? Did not know what. I would also mention Donizetti but I didn't think merely having syphilis is enough for admition to the list.... you have to have been accused of sex addiction too!

EDIT: Actually it's interesting to note how composers are reduced to a few biographical snippets. The facts seem to be: they both got syphilis. Who knows if Schumann was really sex-addicted and Donizetti wasn't, their biographers made that choice.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

One of my favourite composers, *Edgard Varese*, had some controversial opinions about music & other musicians. I've posted some of his quotes elsewhere, but here they are again:

"Contrary to general belief an artist is never ahead of his time but most people are far behind theirs."

"I refuse to limit myself to sounds that have already been heard."

"I am not a musician. I work with rhythms, frequencies and intensities. Tunes are the gossips in music."

(As a 20 year old student to his teacher Saint-Saens): "I have no desire to become an old powdered wig like you!"

Some of his famous works are Arcana, Ameriques, Ionisation, Integrales & Deserts. His surviving output is unbelievably small - fits on to 3 cd's - but he was one of the most influential composers of the C20th.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

Ignis Fatuus said:


> ...Tchaikovsky - had relations with a young boy...


That reminds me, Szymanowski also had a male teenage lover (a minor). I still find this issue uncomfortable a bit, I mean, are we listening to the music of a paedophile? I know there was consent involved in Szymanowski's case, but I doubt that this information came out before his death. It probably would have been a big no-no to do this back then, as it still is today (but probably not necessarily in all societies)...


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## Lukecash12 (Sep 21, 2009)

Andre said:


> That reminds me, Szymanowski also had a male teenage lover (a minor). I still find this issue uncomfortable a bit, I mean, are we listening to the music of a paedophile? I know there was consent involved in Szymanowski's case, but I doubt that this information came out before his death. It probably would have been a big no-no to do this back then, as it still is today (but probably not necessarily in all societies)...


That was actually seen as perfectly okay in ancient Greece, and in a lot of social circles in Rome. Kinda creepy way to think of Aristotle and Plato


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## World Violist (May 31, 2007)

uh... Boulez. Must more be said (musically speaking, of course)?


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## Ignis Fatuus (Nov 25, 2008)

World Violist said:


> uh... Boulez. Must more be said (musically speaking, of course)?


hehe, I literally just mentioned him in the "Who do you hate personality-wise" thread!


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## Rondo (Jul 11, 2007)

There are others mentioned in a book I came across around when the previous "Politics" thread was created. The author makes some descriptions I have heard before, and a few I haven't (such as Bruckner and necrophilia).

To be in line with forum guidlines, I'll provide the name of the book, a summary of which can be found in an online search:

WIVES, LIVES AND LOVES OF THE GREAT COMPOSERS
by Fritz Spiegl
ISBN 0-7145-2917-6


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## World Violist (May 31, 2007)

Ignis Fatuus said:


> hehe, I literally just mentioned him in the "Who do you hate personality-wise" thread!


Actually, reading interviews with him, he seems to be a pretty nice guy.


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## starry (Jun 2, 2009)

Gesualdo. Wasn't he a murderer and a bit mad?


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## World Violist (May 31, 2007)

starry said:


> Gesualdo. Wasn't he a murderer and a bit mad?


I think so... was he the one who killed someone in a drunk brawl or am I thinking of a renaissance painter/sculptor/whatever else?


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

No, I think Gesualdo killed his wife & her lover. It was Caravaggio, the painter, who killed someone in a brawl in a restaurant. As a result, he had to escape from Italy and found refuge on the island of Malta...


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## World Violist (May 31, 2007)

Andre said:


> No, I think Gesualdo killed his wife & her lover. It was Caravaggio, the painter, who killed someone in a brawl in a restaurant. As a result, he had to escape from Italy and found refuge on the island of Malta...


Ok, thank you for that. I heard Gesualdo's story and Caravaggio's at about the same time... must have gotten them mixed up.


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## nefigah (Aug 23, 2008)

Ignis Fatuus said:


> Wagner - antisemitic


It's a bit of a shame that this is the one-word description that would spring to mind when thinking of Wagner's ideas and opinions. I don't really think antisemitism was in any way the defining aspect of his political/philosophical character, nor did he think so.

He did certainly have a lot of controversial ideas, both for their time and today. He wrote quite a lot about his opinions on music and art in general, on humanity, politics, etc. And we mustn't forget that he got kicked out of Germany for political activism, the reasons for which having nothing to do with antisemitism.


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## nimmysnv (Oct 1, 2009)

Hi,

You mean the singers with controversial opinions. I just remember one person Richard Strauss who always tends to give contrary opinions and cares too much about money.

Thanks.


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## Emmnemms (Nov 3, 2009)

Lol, wow i think i am way out of my league on this forum 

to ignus fatuus' question, i am not sure at the moment, possibly a bit of both. i have to do an oral report 5-10 min along with a essay/written report/power point/ect... 
I would like to bring up some people that in their day, people really liked them untill they found out what there music was about, and have them listen to some music (they=the class) ask a few if they liked it, then bring out the "faults" of the composers and ask if they see it differently.

I apologize if I seem Naive or am asking stupid questions, to be honest, i don't know to much about classical composers... of any century, but i am trying to learn... (and i did try to google it, but apparently i couldn't come up with the correct terms, b/c i only got wagner as results... which we already covered him in class)

I thank EVERYONE that contributed, and would be glad to except more if there is any other ideas 
I will make sure to let you guys know about who i am going with (when i write the report this weekend)


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