# Why The Beethoven Hate?



## SalieriIsInnocent

When I first came on to this site way back when, it was like it was more popular to take shots at Mozart among a few members, now it's sort of shifted to Beethoven. 

I'm not getting entire threads dedicated to hatred, but comments here and there, and I'm just wondering what other people are hearing that I haven't heard in my lifetime. Most of it seems to knock Beethoven's later work. People making comments like "Luckily Beethoven couldn't hear his own music" 

I find Beethoven's later music to be great, and I don't think it feels like a drop in quality from his middle period. 

I'm starting to get a classical elitism vibe, and everything after seems to get knocked as inferior. 

Maybe I'm too much a lover of all music, that my ears have been tainted by these "inferior" works.


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## Bulldog

I haven't noticed any increase in Beethoven hate talk. For some folks, taking jabs at the most popular composers makes their day. I try to forget about those jerks.


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## GreenMamba

I haven't noticed any Beethoven hatred. Certainly many don't like Für Elise or Wellington's Victory, and some might be less enthusiastic about certain works. 

Examples?


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## KenOC

I suspect it's a reflection of the reassessment of Beethoven's music taking place in academic and critical circles. This has been going on for a year or so, ever since it was discovered he had most probably faked his deafness and hired Czerny to write some of his better-known works. 

History repeats itself, in advance.

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/world/japanese-beethoven-exposed-fraud-hired-ghostwriter-article-1.1605189


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## Grizzled Ghost

I think it's because he slobbers a lot....


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## Dustin

Bad-mouthing Beethoven's late works seems sort of ridiculous and I don't recall ever seeing it done.


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## KenOC

Dustin said:


> Bad-mouthing Beethoven's late works seems sort of ridiculous and I don't recall ever seeing it done.


How's this? "Indecipherable, uncorrected horrors." (Spohr on the late quartets) I don't think Spohr belongs to this forum, though it's hard to tell because everybody uses fake names. The mods could tell us, but they won't!


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## SalieriIsInnocent

I've seen quite a few comments, but I'm not going to single any members out.


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## Weston

I don't notice any Beethoven dissing going on. Yes, Wellington's Victory is pretty much universally reviled. I don't like it either and I could live without Rage Over a Lost Penny too, but Beethoven for me is the most sublime profound and moving composer ever, popular or not.

Mozart is still a different story with me. I may never understand the near worship so many people seem to feel for his music. Oh, I'm still trying to collect most of his output. I'll just never get as excited or have an otherworldly experience with it as some others do.


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## D Smith

SalieriIsInnocent said:


> I've seen quite a few comments, but I'm not going to single any members out.


I've not seen any any I read this forum pretty thoroughly.


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## SeptimalTritone

Dustin said:


> Bad-mouthing Beethoven's late works seems sort of ridiculous and I don't recall ever seeing it done.


Actually, the most knowledge member of this forum (who unfortunately seems to be gone) did this all the time.



PetrB said:


> That push-pull harmonist fugal passage thingy is one helluva mighty sort of contest, and not all contests are at all attractive. I recognize them for what they are, just do not care for them. I also think the entire Hammerklavier Sonata excessively ugly (and I have no trouble with works the intention of which was anything but "pretty") -- I mean ugly as in unattractive _and not successful for me as a listener_ -- the failure is either in the composer or the listener, always -- yet for many, the Hammerklavier is yet another of Beethoven's crowned "glories."





PetrB said:


> I think [the Grosse Fugue] is one of the ugliest ever written to remain in the rep and be so highly lauded. (The other contender also Beethoven, _Hammerklavier Sonata._) The interior struggle of the Beethoven who could write contrapuntal music more than well being constantly at odds with the Beethoven whose native impulse, and greatest personal joy, is working with vertical harmony -- it is a spectacular and bloody thing to hear, this composer beating himself up like two boxers in the ring, bits of flesh flying, droplets of blood spraying. It is a war of two very different musical procedures, I don't think anyone wins, and maybe that was his actual intent.
> 
> I think it is a spectacular fail, and a spectacularly interesting one. But I am one who has never much been interested in that element of Beethoven where you hear him wrestling so hard with the very materials of music -- hack hack hack, shape shape shape, struggle struggle struggle; high drama, sentimentalized and transliterated (that pretty much by others after the composer's death) into being about the composer's personal life struggles. Boo-hoo.


Even though I don't have enough music theory knowledge to understand what PetrB means about "ineffective conflict between harmony and counterpoint"... I still like the Hammerklavier and the Grosse Fugue. Sorry that I can't appreciate your academic reasons for not enjoying these masterpieces: maybe if I read up on music theory I can learn how to not like them!


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## Dim7

Beethoven's music is way too manly for me.


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## KenOC

I remember a quote, about when Beethoven was writing the big fugue at the end of the Credo in the Missa Solemnis. He could be heard for hours stomping around in his room, singing and shouting at the top of his lungs. When he came out, "he looked as if he had been battling all the demons of counterpoint." And he probably had. But he won.


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## Bulldog

SeptimalTritone said:


> Actually, the most knowledge member of this forum (who unfortunately seems to be gone) did this all the time.


If that member did it all the time, perhaps it's not unfortunate at all.:tiphat:


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## SeptimalTritone

Well, to be fair, no he did not do it "all the time", and he was quite a knowledgeable guy.

I'm just sort of pissed off that "the academic authorities" are telling me that I'm not supposed to like the pieces I like.


Eh... I'll give this little trip of mine a rest.


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## Mahlerian

SeptimalTritone said:


> Well, to be fair, no he did not do it "all the time", and he was quite a knowledgeable guy.
> 
> I'm just sort of pissed off that "the academic authorities" are telling me that I'm not supposed to like the pieces I like.


PetrB expressing an opinion means that PetrB is expressing an opinion. It doesn't mean you're supposed to agree with him, much less that you're not supposed to like something just because he dislikes it.

We disagreed (and still do) about Bruckner. I've never felt that he was encouraging me to stop liking or listening to Bruckner's music.


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## Morimur

Old PetrB—I miss that guy. A ***** disturber if there was ever one, but a damn entertaining one.


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## Woodduck

On the serious side of this, we could observe that Beethoven's heroic/humanist persona is a bit out of step with our postmodern (or is it post-postmodern now?) sensibilities. But since no part of human nature seems actually to have been killed off or has been shown to be a mere social construct, I think we're safe in regarding this slight dip in the level of Beethovenolatry as largely a fashion statement. Take note: even in these unheroic times, and even in the hip environment of TC, Beethoven is winning the "greatest composer" poll, to the surprise of some.

http://www.talkclassical.com/24525-greatest-composer.html

My personal advice? Don't worry about opinions you think are wrong-headed or strange. I think a careful look would reveal as much "Mozart hate" or "Wagner hate" as "Beethoven hate" among members, though the personalities of the different composers and their "haters" will inspire different ways of expressing it. Having a slightly controversial opinion is a sport on forums, and overstating one's real position is a way of getting noticed and stirring up conversation - or of just getting attention, like peeing on the carpet.

Naturally, some do hold extreme or eccentric positions sincerely. They may actually consider Beethoven's music malevolent, or think that Mozart's is all about teatime in the Empress's private salon, or that Wagner's is racist propaganda. Or they might simply be on a mission to make us see that Morton Feldman is as profound as Bach or that Stockhausen's _Licht_ is an artistic achievement surpassing _Der Ring des Nibelungen_.

There. See how we get attention?

A concluding couplet:

We all get our say here, however outre. 
So don't let it bug ya! Lud's here to stay.


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## GreenMamba

Even those quotes from PetrB don't constitute Beethoven hatred.

If you have to go back six months to find qualified negative comments, then it's probably safe to say there isn't much Beethiven hatred here. And as much as I love LvB, he shouldn't be exempt from criticism.


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## GreenMamba

D Smith said:


> I've not seen any any I read this forum pretty thoroughly.


Ahhh, here are some:

http://www.talkclassical.com/27139-beethoven-worst-composer-homage-2.html

Of course, these are joke posts.


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## MarkW

Any two classical music fans will disagree about many things. Some will disagree about everything. That just makes things around here more fun -- and keeps most of us honest insofar as we realize how few absolutes there actually are.


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## aleazk

Morimur said:


> Old PetrB-I miss that guy. A ***** disturber if there was ever one, but a damn entertaining one.


PetrB was one of the most amazing persons I ever met, in internet or real life.


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## clavichorder

aleazk said:


> PetrB was one of the most amazing persons I ever met, in internet or real life.


I both begrudged some of his opinions, and appreciated his attentive notice. He told me a few important things that I needed to hear. He was a very healthy presence to have on this forum and I hope he comes back.


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## SalieriIsInnocent

I don't take offense to an opinion, in fact I encourage somebody explaining to me what they don't like about something. I'm the type of guy that applauds honesty. I'll admit that I don't like every single piece of music Beethoven has written. I can say the same about Bach and Mozart, that doesn't mean I consider them bad pieces. Sometimes I might not be in the right mood for a certain piece. 

A lot of pieces I love stem from childhood or an experience I had while that piece was playing. There's a lot of works I've yet to discover, and I've got many recordings I haven't given more than a listen or two before going back on the rack. I'm always looking for that moment when something hits me at the right time.


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## arpeggio

No matter how great a composer is there will always be some who dislike him.


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## Art Rock

Unless not liking certain pieces is now considered "hate", I have not seen any Beethoven hate on this forum.


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## Guest

SeptimalTritone said:


> Even though I don't have enough music theory knowledge to understand what PetrB means about "ineffective conflict between harmony and counterpoint"... I still like the Hammerklavier and the Grosse Fugue. Sorry that I can't appreciate your academic reasons for not enjoying these masterpieces: maybe if I read up on music theory I can learn how to not like them!


His reasons were not academic...they were personal, and not agreed to by the overwhelming majority voting in the poll from which you have extracted the quote.

Relax and enjoy what you like.


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## KenOC

Beethoven's music is oft thought quite great
And likewise can rouse some to excess of hate
So love him or lump him
Your own view is sumpin'
That's your meal, served up on your very own plate.


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## Sloe

I thought most of the hate was directed towards Johannes Brahms and John Cage.


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## Nereffid

SeptimalTritone said:


> Well, to be fair, no he did not do it "all the time", and he was quite a knowledgeable guy.
> 
> I'm just sort of pissed off that "the academic authorities" are telling me that I'm not supposed to like the pieces I like.
> 
> Eh... I'll give this little trip of mine a rest.


Well, whenever someone says they don't like some music, there's plenty of people telling them they need to put more effort in, listen more, pay attention to the right things, etc etc.
So I suppose it's only fair that the same thing should occasionally happen when someone says they _like_ something. :lol:

And yeah, PetrB was really knowledgeable, especially about the Eurovision Song Contest.


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## manyene

I suspect Beethoven will survive any current badmouthing, as he did in the past and no doubt will in the future.


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## ArtMusic

Listeners who bad mouth the great composers, the very great ones, don't really fully appreciate classical music in my opinion. I have said this before. It is equivalent to saying "I love rock n roll of the 50s and 60s but I think Elvis was a bad singer".


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## Nereffid

ArtMusic said:


> Listeners who bad mouth the great composers, the very great ones, don't really fully appreciate classical music in my opinion. I have said this before. It is equivalent to saying "I love rock n roll of the 50s and 60s but I think Elvis was a bad singer".


If people don't like _any_ of the so-called great composers, then yeah, they probably don't have a general appreciation of classical music, because that covers a lot of ground. But disliking specific ones is just natural variation and nothing to write home about.


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## Strange Magic

There once was a lady named Hatch
Who was fond of the music of Bach.
"He isn't fussy
Like Brahms or Debussy.
Sit down and I'll play you a snatch!"


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## Guest

Nereffid said:


> And yeah, PetrB was really knowledgeable, especially about the Eurovision Song Contest.


Ooh sorry I missed his input then.


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## Heliogabo

Beethoven´s greatness is far beyond hate or any other feeling that we can experience about his music. He is inmortal and humanity has an unpayable debt with him.


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## Epilogue

Woodduck said:


> On the serious side of this, we could observe that Beethoven's heroic/humanist persona is a bit out of step with our postmodern (or is it post-postmodern now?) sensibilities.


That just means he's a curative for what's wrong with our time - by the time anything becomes "our [insert era here] sensibilities," it's malignant.

The time when Beethoven was in danger was when he was _in_ step with the contemporary sensibility - that is to say, in the romantic era. In the modernist era, Bach was in danger, and it'll still be a while before he recovers from the damage (sewing machine performance practice; Hollywood making his music the reason why alien Keanu Reeves decides not to destroy the world). Now in theory it's Mozart who's in danger of being liked by the wrong people for the wrong reason, but so far his combination of tunefulness, sensuality, and sober understatement still seems to work as a fairly effective pedant repellant. (Or maybe it's that he's a dead white male. Come to think of it, I shudder to contemplate the praise poor Wolfgang would be getting today if he'd been a woman.)



Woodduck said:


> Naturally, some do hold extreme or eccentric positions sincerely. They may actually consider Beethoven's music malevolent, or think that Mozart's is all about teatime in the Empress's private salon, or that Wagner's is racist propaganda.


It's not extreme or eccentric to consider Wagner's music racist propaganda. That's just what it is, and what everybody knows it is. Of course, this doesn't change the fact of its greatness.

For that matter, it's not eccentric or extreme to think Mozart is aristocratic teatime music. It's not eccentric, because it's fairly common. It's not extreme, because "extreme" implies some degree of truth.


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## Nereffid

Appendix said:


> liked by the wrong people for the wrong reason


Heaven protect us from the self-anointed gatekeepers.


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## Epilogue

So what you're saying is, you want heaven to keep the gate against gatekeepers.

Also, why specify "self-anointed"? What, you prefer gatekeepers when they've been anointed by somebody else?


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## SixFootScowl

I can't say that I have seen Beethoven hate on this site. From my perspective it seems more like there is disproportionately more praise, if not adulation, for Mozart than for Beethoven.


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## Ukko

I consider PetrB's expressed dislike for the Hammerklavier and the Grosse Fugue to be suspect. Back in my 'maturity delayed days' I didn't like them either, and for reasons uncannily similar to the ones he gave.

There are mores reasons than one to pay attention when PetrB speaks.


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## Nereffid

Appendix said:


> So what you're saying is, you want heaven to keep the gate against gatekeepers.
> 
> Also, why specify "self-anointed"? What, you prefer gatekeepers when they've been anointed by somebody else?


If that's what you wish to get from my post, I'm not sure it's worth my effort to explain any further.


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## Epilogue

Well it's not my fault that you wrote what you wrote.

And what did _you_ wish me to get from your post? The radical and profound opinion that "gatekeepers" are bad?

(This by the way is exactly what I was talking about when I said Beethoven is a cure for our time.)


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## KenOC

"The composer [Beethoven] saw his life and work as a mission and a vocation, as many artists have done in centuries and generations gone by. The fact that the modern, and now post-modern, world with all its pessimism and skepticism, has nothing convincing to contradict this assessment of the high-minded inspiration behind Beethoven's greatness points to the unique unassailability of the composer's achievements and eternal reputation." (from "The Symphony: A Moral Vision Revealed In Music" by James MacMillan)

http://standpointmag.co.uk/node/6234/full


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## Dim7

Sloe said:


> I thought most of the hate was directed towards Johannes Brahms and John Cage.


Cage maybe but not Brahms. Very few hate Brahms, though some may find him boring and dry.


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## Dim7

.............................


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## Guest

Woodduck said:


> [...]
> *There. See how we get attention?
> *
> A concluding couplet:
> 
> We all get our say here, however *outre*.
> So don't let it bug ya! Lud's here to stay.


Well, you certainly got mine, Woodduck, with your bizarre couplet! 
'Outre' (without the acute accent) is French for goatskin, unless you meant it as a preposition.
Here is the new, improved version:

We all get our say here, however _*outré*_.
So don't let it bug ya! TH is here to stay!

OK, do carry on.


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## millionrainbows

The Beethoven criticism I remember was from his otherwise admiring fans here. They all seemed to have a problem with the finale of the Ninth. I think the underlying psychology was that the 'all men are brothers' sentiment espoused by the Ode to Joy was repellent to them, for either personal reasons (I'm not a hippie, I am an individual, an elitist standing alone, I'm a cynic, I see myself as separate and proud, love for humanity as a whole is unrealistic and makes me uncomfortable, and basically I'm a misanthrope who can't spare a dime for a homeless person), or for other reasons (loving everybody is too Socialist, survival of the fittest, tough love, Beethoven's use of Schiller's words reflects a Masonic sensibility which threatens my Christian beliefs, it rings of Eastern philosophy).
Or maybe they just didn't like the music, which is a good Zen way of not thinking about it. I prefer to think about it, because I think music is used to reflect and reinforce people's lifestyles. There are probably a lot of feminists who are opposed to the idea of a "genius" like Beethoven from the git-go.


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## Marschallin Blair

To 'hate' Beethoven?- Is this even possible?

I imagine that the only people who would feel uncomfortable by Beethoven are the aesthetically-distressed for whom the heroic and the profound have absolutely no resonance in their own lives.

Beethoven's undeniably a genius of the first water- and I can't readily think of a composer who's done 'more' with 'less'- like how he spins out and develops the first movements of the _Eroica_ and the _Fifth_, for instance.


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## Marschallin Blair

TalkingHead said:


> Well, you certainly got mine, Woodduck, with your bizarre couplet!
> 'Outre' (without the acute accent) is French for goatskin, unless you meant it as a preposition.
> Here is the new, improved version:
> 
> We all get our say here, however _*outré*_.
> So don't let it bug ya! TH is here to stay!
> 
> OK, do carry on.


Don't be 'too' severe, TalkingHead. He probably doesn't have diacritical markings on his keyboard.


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## Dim7

Marschallin Blair said:


> To 'hate' Beethoven?- Is this even possible?
> 
> I imagine that the only people who would feel uncomfortable by Beethoven are the aesthetically-distressed for whom the heroic and the profound have absolutely no resonance in their own lives.
> 
> Beethoven's undeniably a genius of the first water- and I can't readily think of a composer who's done 'more' with 'less'- like how he spins out and develops the first movements of the _Eroica_ and the _Fifth_, for instance.


I like the those movements. They certainly do interesting things with rather simplistic motifs/themes. That said, IMO ideally one should do interesting things with interesting themes.


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## Guest

Marschallin Blair said:


> Don't be 'too' severe, TalkingHead. He probably doesn't have diacritical markings on his keyboard.


I wasn't intending to be too severe with that old outre Woodduck, MB!


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## Marschallin Blair

TalkingHead said:


> I wasn't intending to be too severe with that old outre Woodduck, MB!


He might pretend to be the incorrigible curmudgeon at times, TalkingHead- but that's just protective camouflage for the lamb. _;D_


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## Badinerie

Criticism of Beethoven's Later works? Cant help thinking about late quartets and also thinking... WTF!?


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## Marschallin Blair

Badinerie said:


> Criticism of Beethoven's Later works? Cant help thinking about late quartets and also thinking... WTF!?


Totally.

It seems sometimes that people mock what they don't (or can't) understand.

_;D_


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## SARDiver

MarkW said:


> Any two classical music fans will disagree about many things.


No they won't.

Heh.


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## ArtMusic

Nereffid said:


> If people don't like _any_ of the so-called great composers, then yeah, they probably don't have a general appreciation of classical music, because that covers a lot of ground. But disliking specific ones is just natural variation and nothing to write home about.


People can have preferences but it is unimaginable to me to dislike the very *top tier* composers, hence my rock n roll analogy with Elvis. Pure and simple.


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## Mahlerian

ArtMusic said:


> People can have preferences but it is unimaginable to me to dislike the very *top tier* composers, hence my rock n roll analogy with Elvis. Pure and simple.


You have expressed dislike for several of the those whom I consider among very top tier composers yourself.


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## ArtMusic

Mahlerian said:


> You have expressed dislike for many of the those whom I consider among very top tier composers yourself.


That's different to what I wrote. Beethoven is universally recognized as great (the topic of this thread). I may think William Williams (real Baroque English unknown composer) is as great as Beethoven while my neighbor may bad mouth Williams and that fact that Williams is very little know today would therefore lend weight to Williams being much less great. This is an extreme example to show my point. My neighbor is entitled to his preference and opinion of course and likely to be agreeable with a much large listening population.


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## Mahlerian

ArtMusic said:


> That's different to what I wrote. Beethoven is universally recognized as great (the topic of this thread). I may think William Williams (real Baroque English unknown composer) is as great as Beethoven while my neighbor may bad mouth Williams and that fact that Williams is very little know today would therefore lend weight to Williams being much less great. This is an extreme example to show my point. My neighbor is entitled to his preference and opinion of course and likely to be agreeable with a much large listening population.


Beethoven is far from universally recognized as great. Debussy and Ravel, among others, found much to dislike about his work. More accurately, he is acknowledged as great by many who have made such rankings over the years. My point is that there are composers in that group, including Schoenberg and Stravinsky, whom you have expressed dislike for; if you say that one who dislikes one or some of the top tier composers is not a real fan of classical music, would that not also apply to yourself?


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## ArtMusic

Mahlerian said:


> Beethoven is far from universally recognized as great. Debussy and Ravel, among others, found much to dislike about his work. More accurately, he is acknowledged as great by many who have made such rankings over the years. My point is that there are composers in that group, including Schoenberg and Stravinsky, whom you have expressed dislike for; if you say that one who dislikes one or some of the top tier composers is not a real fan of classical music, would that not also apply to yourself?


But I do not consider Shostakovich and Schoenberg for example to be in the same class of greatness as Beethoven. That's my point. It is hard to dismiss Beethoven and I think Debussy and Ravel had other agendas in mind and may have even be professionally envious. Composers do get jealous other others, it's a fact.


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## Mahlerian

ArtMusic said:


> But I do not consider Shostakovich and Schoenberg for example to be in the same class of greatness as Beethoven. That's my point. It is hard to dismiss Beethoven and I think Debussy and Ravel had other agendas in mind and may have even be professionally envious. Composers do get jealous other others, it's a fact.


Yes, but that very likely has absolutely nothing to do with Debussy and Ravel's personal views on Beethoven, which probably stemmed from deep-rooted aesthetic differences.

I don't consider Shostakovich anywhere near Beethoven's tier either. Schoenberg is pretty darn close, though.


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## Bulldog

Mahlerian said:


> Beethoven is far from universally recognized as great.


Are you referring to the guy who keeps winning polls around here and other sites as well? If the recognition is not universal, it's the closest thing to it.


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## ArtMusic

Mahlerian said:


> Yes, but that very likely has absolutely nothing to do with Debussy and Ravel's personal views on Beethoven, which probably stemmed from deep-rooted aesthetic differences.
> 
> I don't consider Shostakovich anywhere near Beethoven's tier either. Schoenberg is pretty darn close, though.


In any case, it did more harm to Debussy and Ravel who may have bad mouthed Beethoven.


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## DiesIraeCX

Mahlerian said:


> Yes, but that very likely has absolutely nothing to do with Debussy and Ravel's personal views on Beethoven, which far more likely stemmed from deep-rooted aesthetic differences.
> 
> I don't consider Shostakovich anywhere near Beethoven's tier either. Schoenberg is pretty darn close, though.


I'm always conflicted in the "popularity as indicator of 'greatness'" debate, it's never so really black-and-white on account of the different types of "popularity". On one hand, I don't believe Beethoven, Mozart, Bach, or Wagner are top-tier composers because everyone and their grandma has heard their names before, or have heard one of their "tunes" in a commercial. On the other hand, I do believe that "popularity" (or renown, even) within listeners of classical (be it novice, enthusiast, or seasoned) and other musical people "in the know" (musicologists, music historians, composers, musicians, etc.) does count for something. I believe it's why we can say that Beethoven's piano concerto #2 isn't in the same league or tier as his 4th piano concerto, or why Saint-Saens isn't in Mozart or Bach's tier, it's why Charles Rosen can speak about Beethoven's 32nd piano sonata with reverence, but not the 20th piano sonata.

I don't want to be misunderstood, I don't believe that they are great _because_ of the latter type of popularity, the contrary, the popularity/renown are a _result_ of the supreme qualities of a great piece or composer.


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## violadude

I have only read the OP so I don't know what has been discussed. I find it a little odd that:

1. Beethoven's late work, in particular, would be getting knocked
2. Knocking Beethoven's late work is claimed to be done by the so called "Classical Music Elite"

If anything, I would think an elitist classical group would knock Beethoven's middle period the most, being the period where his most popular, and misused, compositions were written. Any elitist classical music group worth their salt would love Beethoven's late period as obviously the most profound and transcendent music ever written


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## Sloe

ArtMusic said:


> In any case, it did more harm to Debussy and Ravel who may have bad mouthed Beethoven.


I do not think it made either harm or gain if the expressed dislike towards Beethoven there are many composers whose music we like that disliked music we like.


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## ArtMusic

Sloe said:


> I do not think it made either harm or gain if the expressed dislike towards Beethoven there are many composers whose music we like that disliked music we like.


True but I am trying to make this a Beethoven discussion. Bad mouthing Beethoven as a classical music listener/composer/whatever is equivalent to bad mouth Elvis as a rock n roll fan, or Michael Jackson as a 80s pop music fan etc. It is entirely nonsensical.


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## violadude

ArtMusic said:


> True but I am trying to make this a Beethoven discussion. Bad mouthing Beethoven as a classical music listener/composer/whatever is equivalent to bad mouth Elvis as a rock n roll fan, or Michael Jackson as a 80s pop music fan etc. It is entirely nonsensical.


Uh, no.

End of argument.


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## DiesIraeCX

ArtMusic said:


> True but I am trying to make this a Beethoven discussion. Bad mouthing Beethoven as a classical music listener/composer/whatever is equivalent to bad mouth Elvis as a rock n roll fan, or Michael Jackson as a 80s pop music fan etc. It is entirely nonsensical.


Let's clarify, though, ArtMusic. What does "bad mouthing" mean to you? If it's mindless bashing that has no merit, then it would be nonsensical not only to bad mouth Beethoven, but also Schoenberg or Ligeti or Haas. If "bad mouthing" means not liking Beethoven's aesthetic qualities, or not liking the paucity of material in the Hammerklavier's slow movement, then bad mouthing Beethoven isn't nonsensical at all, rather it's a completely valid musical taste, or a completely valid musical criticism, respectively. It was TalkClassical's own Woodduck who expressed his dislike of the Hammerklavier's slow movement, and I know Woodduck to be one of Beethoven's most adamant admirers.


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## Woodduck

Appendix said:


> That just means he's a curative for what's wrong with our time - by the time anything becomes "our [insert era here] sensibilities," it's malignant.
> 
> The time when *Beethoven was in danger* was *when he was in step with the contemporary sensibility - that is to say, in the romantic era.* In the modernist era, *Bach was in danger, and it'll still be a while before he recovers from the damage *(sewing machine performance practice; Hollywood making his music the reason why alien Keanu Reeves decides not to destroy the world). Now *in theory it's Mozart who's in danger of being liked by the wrong people for the wrong reason,* but so far his combination of tunefulness, sensuality, and sober understatement still seems to work as a fairly effective pedant repellant. (Or maybe it's that he's a dead white male. Come to think of it, I shudder to contemplate the praise poor Wolfgang would be getting today if he'd been a woman.)
> 
> *It's not extreme or eccentric to consider Wagner's music racist propaganda. That's just what it is, and what everybody knows it is.* Of course, this doesn't change the fact of its greatness.
> 
> For that matter, it's not eccentric or extreme to think Mozart is aristocratic teatime music. It's not eccentric, because it's fairly common. It's not extreme, because "extreme" implies some degree of truth.


I don't understand your post as an apparent response to mine. Maybe that isn't what it's intended to be.

What does it mean to say that Beethoven was "in step" with the Romantic era? Weren't Romantic views of him just that - views? And why was he "in danger" from something he was "in step" with? And who or what rescued him from danger - or was the danger not serious?

What damage has Bach suffered? Spooky organ soundtracks? Sewing machine rhythms? Period performance practice reforms are half a century old now, and Bach looks extremely healthy to me.

Who are these wrong people liking Mozart for the wrong reasons and putting _him_ in danger (if only "in theory")? Do Tom Hulce, prenatal education, and happy orchids really define Mozart for the world? All that stuff was amusing, but basically people just enjoy the music. Always have, always will.

Wagner may be the only one of these composers in any sort of "danger" worth speaking of, and the danger has been imposed by a history of co-optation by political ideologues, their dittoheads in academia, and _their_ dittoheads in the perpetually yellow press. Last time I listened to some Wagner (with no assistance from those people) there was no racial propaganda in it. Actually there's never been anything about race in it since I started listening to it fifty years ago. I suggest going over to the Politics and Religion forum if you want to try to make that case. But no matter how often the case gets recycled, even Wagner seems to be weathering his "danger" very well.

There are always changing perspectives and changing fashions in art. Isn't it reasonable - and reassuring - that sheer musical excellence and the ability to speak to humanity two centuries hence is keeping all these composers out of any real danger?


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## Sloe

ArtMusic said:


> True but I am trying to make this a Beethoven discussion. Bad mouthing Beethoven as a classical music listener/composer/whatever is equivalent to bad mouth Elvis as a rock n roll fan, or Michael Jackson as a 80s pop music fan etc. It is entirely nonsensical.


So what you say is that if I like Duran Duran I must like Michael Jackson and if I like. People like what they like and some music happen to be less likeable for some persons. That there are those that Do not like the same music as oneself is not a catastrophe.


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## tdc

ArtMusic said:


> True but I am trying to make this a Beethoven discussion. Bad mouthing Beethoven as a classical music listener/composer/whatever is equivalent to* bad mouth Elvis as a rock n roll fan*, or Michael Jackson as a 80s pop music fan etc. It is entirely nonsensical.


As far as Elvis I think he is actually a good example of how the general public can fall in love with a *character*, and it can influence their musical popularity - this popularity can then skew perspectives in regards the actual music.

Elvis is considered by many the 'king of rock n roll' but in reality one could actually make a very strong argument that there are many rock bands that surpass him in creative talent, as Elvis did not compose any of his hits.

In much the same way I think Beethoven has become a popular and famous character to the point where many start to believe that this means his music is beyond criticism, which it is not.

Many famous musicians and composers have criticized aspects of his composition. There is nothing nonsensical about that, and it doesn't mean they understand less about classical music than you or I.


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## ArtMusic

Bad mouth and musical critique are different things.


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## Mahlerian

ArtMusic said:


> Bad mouth and musical critique are different things.


So you can musically critique something, but you are not allowed to dislike it, and it reflects badly on Debussy and Ravel to have preferences that run contrary to tradition?


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## ArtMusic

Mahlerian said:


> So you can musically critique something, but you are not allowed to dislike it, and it reflects badly on Debussy and Ravel to have preferences that run contrary to tradition?


I think in Debussy's and Ravel's case it was professional jealousy.


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## Mahlerian

ArtMusic said:


> I think in Debussy's and Ravel's case it was professional jealousy.


Why?

In the absence of other proof, wouldn't it be more reasonable to assume that it was an expression of aesthetic differences? They're not competing against Beethoven as such, so what would their jealousy be directed towards?

The fact that their music itself embodies a very different perspective in regards to form and content seems to support my view, I think.


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## isorhythm

I don't think Elvis is the Beethoven of 50s rock and roll at all.

Chuck Berry, Little Richard and Buddy Holly are surely more deserving.

I like 50s rock and roll and I don't like Elvis.


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## ArtMusic

Mahlerian said:


> Why?
> 
> In the absence of other proof, wouldn't it be more reasonable to assume that it was an expression of aesthetic differences? They're not competing against Beethoven as such, so what would their jealousy be directed towards?
> 
> The fact that their music itself embodies a very different perspective in regards to form and content seems to support my view, I think.


Based on my reading and my opinion.


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## isorhythm

ArtMusic said:


> Based on my reading and my opinion.


What have you read that supports your opinion?


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## Richannes Wrahms

Meh. Everybody knows the time between Monteverdi and Debussy is a creative dead valley.


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## ArtMusic

isorhythm said:


> What have you read that supports your opinion?


Books and papers about Debussy and Ravel. They were rightly more interested in music of their own times, the French Romantic but felt that Beethoven was increasingly cultivated as an "immortal musical god".


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## violadude

ArtMusic said:


> Books and papers about Debussy and Ravel. They were rightly more interested in music of their own times, the French Romantic but felt that Beethoven was increasingly cultivated as an "immortal musical god".


...which is an opinion they held based on aesthetic differences in their music. Like what Mahlerian is saying.


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## StlukesguildOhio

I like 50s rock and roll and I don't like Elvis.

Then you don't like 50s rock n roll.


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## StlukesguildOhio

Honestly, I can't say I've ever really come across any real body of Beethoven hatred here. I think we had a clique of Beethoven "fanboys" some time back who dismissed Mozart as "light" music... and even thumbed their noses at Schubert. Even at the height of such nonsense I can't recall any Mozart champions who hated Beethoven. Personally I have need to badmouth Beethoven in order to justify my love of Bach and Mozart. I love them all... and Schubert, Haydn, Wagner, Richard Strauss, Brahms, Schumann, etc...


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## Marschallin Blair

StlukesguildOhio said:


> Honestly, I can't say I've ever really come across any real body of Beethoven hatred here. I think we had a clique of Beethoven "fanboys" some time back who dismissed Mozart as "light" music... and even thumbed their noses at Schubert. Even at the height of such nonsense I can't recall any Mozart champions who hated Beethoven. Personally I have need to badmouth Beethoven in order to justify my love of Bach and Mozart. I love them all... and Schubert, Haydn, Wagner, Richard Strauss, Brahms, Schumann, etc...


Having only 'one' composer for a lover isn't generous.


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## isorhythm

The one anti-Beethoven thread I remember was a joke.


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## Abraham Lincoln

Whoa. This thread mushroomed since the last time I checked it.

Schroeder does not approve of thread.


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## SalieriIsInnocent

I didn't expect the fallout from my initial post...


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## Guest

StlukesguildOhio said:


> I like 50s rock and roll and I don't like Elvis.
> 
> Then you don't like 50s rock n roll.


Is this meant as a joke? (I can't determine)


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## ArtMusic

violadude said:


> ...which is an opinion they held based on aesthetic differences in their music. Like what Mahlerian is saying.


No, the posts above was discussing about a different matter. I was referring to my neighbor's example of bad mouthing composer William Williams who I regard as great (example only). Beethoven carries way, way more weight than Williams, so any badmouthing of Beethoven is going to b mt with much less credibility than Williams.


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## Piwikiwi

ArtMusic said:


> I think in Debussy's and Ravel's case it was professional jealousy.


Or just French anti-German sentiment after Franc lost the Franco-Prussian war.


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## tdc

Piwikiwi said:


> Or just French anti-German sentiment after Franc lost the Franco-Prussian war.


Don't think this really explains it - at least in the case of Ravel who loved Mozart, Bach, Schumann and Haydn's music.

I think it is entirely possible they simply did not enjoy Beethoven's music.


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## Piwikiwi

tdc said:


> Don't think this really explains it - at least in the case of Ravel who loved Mozart, Bach, Schumann and Haydn's music.
> 
> I think it is entirely possible they simply did not enjoy Beethoven's music.


Beethoven is more German in style imho and is easier to see as an example of German "bad" taste.


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## Headphone Hermit

It is easy to see how someone might like the music of Beethoven but not that of Ravel or Debussy (or vice versa) .... so it is easy to see how Ravel or Debussy might not like the music of Beethoven without it being a matter of jealousy or resentment over the Prussian victory in 1871


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## poconoron

StlukesguildOhio said:


> Honestly, I can't say I've ever really come across any real body of Beethoven hatred here. I think we had a clique of Beethoven "fanboys" some time back who dismissed Mozart as "light" music. Even at the height of such nonsense I can't recall any Mozart champions who hated Beethoven.


This is right on target. It seems much more prevalent among Beethoven lovers to denigrate Mozart than the other way around.

I happen to love both composers immensely, but for me, Mozart edges out Beethoven by just a bit based on his sublime operas.


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## tdc

Piwikiwi said:


> Beethoven is more German in style imho and is easier to see as an example of German "bad" taste.


In fairness to your original point I have read a few comments by Debussy disparaging aspects of Wagner and Bach's compositional style as well, and at times I've suspected that perhaps he did feel a little bit competitive and therefore slightly biased towards the German composers. However as your comment kind of alludes to Beethoven's compositional style in particular is so far removed from the early 20th century French aesthetic, that it just doesn't seem surprising to me at all that his music was not to their tastes. I don't think any non-musical explanations are necessary here.


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## tortkis

Actually, Debussy praised Beethoven's Symphony No. 9 unreservedly while denouncing Wagner's pieces that were performed in the same program, and stated that the symphony as a form is of no use after Beethoven. He criticized the Symphony No. 6, but regarded it as an exception among Beethoven's masterpieces. This seems to indicate that his judgement was not based on non-musical matters.


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## KenOC

I've seen several references to reactions against German music in France late in the 19th century. For instance, Franck's Symphony in D minor was attacked for being "too German."


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## tdc

tortkis said:


> Actually, Debussy praised Beethoven's Symphony No. 9 unreservedly while denouncing Wagner's pieces that were performed in the same program, and stated that the symphony as a form is of no use after Beethoven. He criticized the Symphony No. 6, but regarded it as an exception among Beethoven's masterpieces. This seems to indicate that his judgement was not based on non-musical matters.


This is interesting and I was not aware of it. I know Ravel was not into Beethoven's music at all. I was not aware of Debussy's opinion on him either way - but apparently Mahlerian has come across some information suggesting Debussy did not enjoy Beethoven.

Debussy perhaps is a titch more of a Romantic and Ravel more the Classicist.

(I know Beethoven was technically a Classical composer, but really I think the spirit of his music is closer to Romanticism.)


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## tortkis

tdc said:


> This is interesting and I was not aware of it. I know Ravel was not into Beethoven's music at all. I was not aware of Debussy's opinion on him either way - but apparently Mahlerian has come across some information suggesting Debussy did not enjoy Beethoven.
> 
> Debussy perhaps is a titch more of a Romantic and Ravel more the Classicist.
> 
> (I know Beethoven was technically a Classical composer, but really I think the spirit of his music is closer to Romanticism.)


I read Debussy's comment on Beethoven's Symphony No. 9 in the 3rd chapter of _Monsieur Croche, antidilettante_, and his criticism of No. 6 in the 13th chapter.

You can read the book online here (English translation):
_Monsieur Croche the Dilettante Hater_ by Claude Debussy
https://archive.org/stream/threeclassicsina00debu#page/16/mode/2up

I also read that, in his introductory essay, Debussy mentioned Mozart and Beethoven as the two masters he admired.


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## Morimur

Mahlerian said:


> Yes, but that very likely has absolutely nothing to do with Debussy and Ravel's personal views on Beethoven, which probably stemmed from deep-rooted aesthetic differences.
> 
> I don't consider Shostakovich anywhere near Beethoven's tier either. Schoenberg is pretty darn close, though.


How near would _Mahler_ be to Beethoven's tier, Mahlerian, huh?


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## Ukko

I have never understood the importance placed on one composer's opinion regarding the music of another composer. Hah. Especially if the opinion came from a Frenchman.


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## Sloe

Ukko said:


> I have never understood the importance placed on one composer's opinion regarding the music of another composer. Hah. Especially if the opinion came from a Frenchman.


Because they know better than us common deadly people.


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## HaydnBearstheClock

On the contrary, I've been really getting into Beethoven's chamber music as of late - it is brilliant. I probably enjoy the Piano trios most, though the quartets are awesome as well. I tend to listen to the symphonies less, though they are excellent works.


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## Kieran

HaydnBearstheClock said:


> On the contrary, I've been really getting into Beethoven's chamber music as of late - they are brilliant. The symphonies are too, but I listen to them less.


Yeah, I been on a binge: the violin sonatas, cello sonatas and piano trios. I prefer scaled-down Luigi, to be honest...


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## HaydnBearstheClock

Kieran said:


> Yeah, I been on a binge: the violin sonatas, cello sonatas and piano trios. I prefer scaled-down Luigi, to be honest...


Yes, the violin sonatas are great as well. The 'Spring' and 'Kreutzer' are some of my favourite works by Beethoven as well.


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## Sloe

HaydnBearstheClock said:


> On the contrary, I've been really getting into Beethoven's chamber music as of late - it is brilliant. I probably enjoy the Piano trios most, though the quartets are awesome as well. I tend to listen to the symphonies less, though they are excellent works.


It would have been nice if Beethoven had been more like Haydn and just made symphony after symhpony. On the other hand Beethovens symphonies are longer.


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## HaydnBearstheClock

Sloe said:


> It would have been nice if Beethoven had been more like Haydn and just made symphony after symhpony.


Haha, he was definitely quite different than Haydn - his symphonies have a very personal, individualistic stamp, whereas Haydn's are all filled with lively joy, which he expresses in so many different ways. Beethoven's symphonies, although great works, to me come across as very tormented at times, and that even in moments where they are supposed to be 'happy', whereas Haydn's breathe joy and harmony pretty much all throughout. Beethoven is, I find, warmer and more 'earthy' in his chamber music, which is why I tend to enjoy it more.


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## Sloe

HaydnBearstheClock said:


> Haha, he was definitely quite different than Haydn - his symphonies have a very personal, individualistic stamp, whereas Haydn's are all filled with lively joy, which he expresses in so many different ways. Beethoven's symphonies, although great works, to me come across as very tormented at times, and that even in moments where they are supposed to be 'happy', whereas Haydn's breathe joy and harmony pretty much all throughout. Beethoven is, I find, warmer and more 'earthy' in his chamber music, which is why I tend to enjoy it more.


I like both composers works.


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## HaydnBearstheClock

Sloe said:


> I like both of them.


You mean both composers? I like the both as well .


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## Morimur

I really always thought Beethoven's music was loved by most. What's there not to love?


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## Woodduck

Ukko said:


> I have never understood the importance placed on one composer's opinion regarding the music of another composer. Hah. Especially if the opinion came from a Frenchman.


Artists sometimes seem to be among the most biased and intolerant of art critics. Their belief in their own artistic vision almost necessitates a lack of sympathy with work having a different aesthetic approach. The people I know with the widest artistic sympathies are not creative artists.


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## KenOC

Woodduck said:


> Artists sometimes seem to be among the most biased and intolerant of art critics.


Here are some comments by Beethoven on the music of others.

https://sites.google.com/site/kenocstuff/beethoven-s-words/8-beethoven-the-critic


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## clavichorder

Woodduck said:


> Artists sometimes seem to be among the most biased and intolerant of art critics. Their belief in their own artistic vision almost necessitates a lack of sympathy with work having a different aesthetic approach. The people I know with the widest artistic sympathies are not creative artists.


It depends, it really does. That can be a problem of the artist. But I don't think it has to be. Liszt certainly did not succumb, but readily absorbed all influences.


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## Steatopygous

KenOC said:


> Here are some comments by Beethoven on the music of others.
> 
> https://sites.google.com/site/kenocstuff/beethoven-s-words/8-beethoven-the-critic


An excellent selection, and thanks for posting it. You have omitted, however, one of my favourite insults: Beethoven to a contemporary composer: "I liked your opera. Some day I may set it to music."


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## violadude

Woodduck said:


> Artists sometimes seem to be among the most biased and intolerant of art critics. Their belief in their own artistic vision almost necessitates a lack of sympathy with work having a different aesthetic approach.* The people I know with the widest artistic sympathies are not creative artists.*


Oh..well....I see how it is, Wooduck.


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## KenOC

Steatopygous said:


> An excellent selection, and thanks for posting it. You have omitted, however, one of my favourite insults: Beethoven to a contemporary composer: "I liked your opera. Some day I may set it to music."


 Here's one from 1824: "No one has a mind any more for what is good, what is vigorous -- in short, for real music! Yes, yes, that's how it is, you Viennese! Rossini and his pals, they're your heroes. You want nothing more from me! Sometimes Schuppanzigh gets a quartet out of me, but you've no time for the symphonies, and you don't want Fidelio. It's Rossini, Rossini above everything. Perhaps your soulless strumming and singing, your own shoddy stuff that you take for real art -- that's your taste. Oh, you Viennese!"


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## SalieriIsInnocent

Beethoven seemed to be a bigger critic of the Viennese ear than any composer.


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## Mandryka

KenOC said:


> Here's one from 1824: "No one has a mind any more for what is good, what is vigorous -- in short, for real music! Yes, yes, that's how it is, you Viennese! Rossini and his pals, they're your heroes. You want nothing more from me! Sometimes Schuppanzigh gets a quartet out of me, but you've no time for the symphonies, and you don't want Fidelio. It's Rossini, Rossini above everything. Perhaps your soulless strumming and singing, your own shoddy stuff that you take for real art -- that's your taste. Oh, you Viennese!"


What's interesting there is how as late as 1824 Beethoven identified good music with vigorous music. Now we know how to play the 9th symphony.


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## Headphone Hermit

SalieriIsInnocent said:


> Beethoven seemed to be a bigger critic of the Viennese ear than any composer.


That may have a teeny-weeny bit to do with him living there and feeling he wasn't appreciated enough in what he saw to be the centre of music. I dare say that he'd have had similar grumbles in any place he chose to live


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## Mandryka

Morimur said:


> What's there not to love?


Too repetitive. Too goal oriented. Too much about moving forward. Too bombastic. Too sentimental. Too American. Figures too prominently in accounts of music history.


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## Headphone Hermit

Mandryka said:


> Too repetitive. Too goal oriented. Too much about moving forward. Too bombastic. Too sentimental. Too American. Figures too prominently in accounts of music history.


too 'American' - what? What? What? 

Perhaps someone has put the CD in the wrong case here?


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## Mandryka

Post deleted because.


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## Guest

Headphone Hermit said:


> too 'American' - what? What? What?
> 
> Perhaps someone has put the CD in the wrong case here?


What about Ludwig's heavy use of the banjo?


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## tdc

I totally understand what Mandryka means. Beethoven is as American as apple pie and NASA.


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## Strange Magic

I also get what Mandryka is saying, but I would remove the word "too" before each of Mandryka's several adjectives and adjectival phrases. Without that "too", we get a clearer (to my mind) sense of Beethoven's full musical personality.


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## Kivimees

SalieriIsInnocent said:


> I didn't expect the fallout from my initial post...


It's not uncommon here at TC. Pure and simple.


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## Sloe

Mandryka said:


> Too repetitive. Too goal oriented. Too much about moving forward. Too bombastic. Too sentimental. *Too American*. Figures too prominently in accounts of music history.


What is too American with Beethoven?


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## Mandryka

Sloe said:


> What is too American with Beethoven?


I'm talking about the music not the person of course. It's just that in his middle period, after op 10 and before op 106, the music seems to completely chime with Yankee values.

Action and achievement oriented, aggressive, wants to be top dog, doesn't hide its light under a bushel, individualist, plain speaking, optimistic, confident in itself and in the future . . .


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## Bulldog

Mandryka said:


> I'm talking about the music not the person of course. It's just that in his middle period, after op 10 and before op 106, the music seems to completely chime with Yankee values.
> 
> Action and achievement oriented, aggressive, wants to be top dog, doesn't hide its light under a bushel, individualist, plain speaking, optimistic, confident in itself and in the future . . .


Yes, that's the United States. What a country!


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## Epilogue

Mandryka said:


> I'm talking about the music not the person of course. It's just that in his middle period, after op 10 and before op 106, the music seems to completely chime with Yankee values.
> 
> Action and achievement oriented, aggressive, wants to be top dog, doesn't hide its light under a bushel, individualist, plain speaking, optimistic, confident in itself and in the future . . .


Those are French values (maybe not coincidentally, given Ludwig's liberal orientation at a time when liberalism meant France, and his man-crush on Napoleon) - minus "confident in itself and and in the future" after the Holy Alliance and demographic circumstances (mostly the latter) beat them down.

Americans aren't aggressive. We're physical cowards. Of course, we'll still mercilessly tear apart easy pickings.


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## Mandryka

Appendix said:


> Those are French values (maybe not coincidentally, given Ludwig's liberal orientation at a time when liberalism meant France, and his man-crush on Napoleon) - minus "confident in itself and and in the future" after the Holy Alliance and demographic circumstances (mostly the latter) beat them down.
> 
> Americans aren't aggressive. We're physical cowards. Of course, we'll still mercilessly tear apart easy pickings.


Maybe what they are, and this may be getting to something interesting in all this bull that I've been trolling, maybe what they are is _revolutionary values_.

And maybe there lies the thing to hate too, or at least the thing to feel uncomfortable out, in an age where the zeitgeist is very cynical about the power of the people to challenge the establishment. Witness the failure of revolutionary movements in Europe to gain real popular support, I don't know what's happening in that regard in the US. I'm thinking all the anti-austerity movements here.


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## HaydnBearstheClock

Mandryka said:


> Too repetitive. Too goal oriented. Too much about moving forward. Too bombastic. Too sentimental. Too American. Figures too prominently in accounts of music history.


Sometimes I get this impression from Beethoven's symphonies, but his chamber music is wittier and more subtle, imo.


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## KenOC

Mandryka said:


> Too repetitive. Too goal oriented. Too much about moving forward. Too bombastic. Too sentimental. Too American. Figures too prominently in accounts of music history.


Anybody who disses Beethoven is a loser and quite possibly French (I mean that in a nice way). Anybody remember why the boulevards of Paris are lined with trees?


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## Morimur

If one doesn't have an ear for Beethoven, one simply doesn't have an ear for good music—fact.


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## ArtMusic

Morimur said:


> If one doesn't have an ear for Beethoven, one simply doesn't have an ear for good music-fact.


I agree. The man crafted his music to the point where he went deaf and to the point where his piano's keys showed dented finger marks through extreme use.


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## millionrainbows

Hearing the disco version of the Fifth, or hearing it used on "Judge Judy" is enough to make anybody hate Beethoven. But seriously, folks, the piano sonatas are a never-ending source of inspiration to me, as well as the late string quartets and later symphonies. Some of the real early stuff sounds too much like Mozart. The dude could not write opera, either.


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## Headphone Hermit

millionrainbows said:


> Hearing the disco version of the Fifth, or hearing it used on "Judge Judy" is enough to make anybody hate Beethoven. But seriously, folks, the piano sonatas are a never-ending source of inspiration to me, as well as the late string quartets and later symphonies. Some of the real early stuff sounds too much like Mozart. The dude could not write opera, either.


is all of this post a joke ... or just the bit about disco 5th?


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## arpeggio

Check out the 10:00 mark.


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## SalieriIsInnocent

After years of Karajan's thunderous performances of Beethoven's work, that was the only way I knew the composer. I have to say, I've always loved my thunderous Beethoven, but coming to listen to other interpretations, namely HIP performances; I can hear the man's love of Handel in his Symphonies.


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## gardibolt

Beethoven was a big fan of Cherubini, whose music is mostly forgotten today but deserves a revival. There's some terrific material there, very much in the Beethoven mold of revolutionary fervor.


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## SixFootScowl

gardibolt said:


> Beethoven was a big fan of Cherubini, whose music is mostly forgotten today but deserves a revival. There's some terrific material there, very much in the Beethoven mold of revolutionary fervor.


I probably need to explore Cherubini. I have one opera (Lodoiska) and a couple of his masses.


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## gardibolt

Florestan said:


> I probably need to explore Cherubini. I have one opera (Lodoiska) and a couple of his masses.


You need to hear Medea. The overture easily could have come from Beethoven's pen. Maria Callas has a classic rendition of it, though it's in Italian and unfortunately very badly cut; there are several good versions in the original French that are worth looking into. Some of the structure to it is very reminiscent of Leonore (though the story is very different), and I suspect Beethoven may have had a score of Medea at hand, or at least a recent performance of it in mind, as he was preparing the first version of Leonore.


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## Flamme

Mahlerian said:


> Yes, but that very likely has absolutely nothing to do with Debussy and Ravel's personal views on Beethoven, which probably stemmed from deep-rooted aesthetic differences.
> 
> I don't consider Shostakovich anywhere near Beethoven's tier either.  Schoenberg is pretty darn close, though.


Dunno buddy, Shosty is pretty SHARP, imho...


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## SixFootScowl

gardibolt said:


> You need to hear Medea.


 The subject matter of the libretto does not appeal to me, but for sure there would be some great singing and I likely have a lot of arias from it in my Callas collection. It would be good to listen through the whole opera based on the points you have made about it and Leonore and Beethoven's possibly having had a copy and been familiar with it.


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## Ukko

Florestan said:


> I probably need to explore Cherubini. I have one opera (Lodoiska) and a couple of his masses.


There is a fairly well-known symphony that received approbation from Beethoven (and moi, "as if anyone cares").


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## Bulldog

I find Cherubini's best music comes from his six string quartets.


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