# Oh dear...



## userfume (Nov 21, 2012)

http://halloffame.classicfm.com/2013/chart/p/300-251/#pieces-300-291

it is too depressing seeing some of the choices


----------



## Crudblud (Dec 29, 2011)

It's only a list, although this is a community in which the poll and the list are the arbiters of truth, so I suspect we'll have more than a few pages of indignant outrage over this nothing.


----------



## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

Frankly, I couldn't care less about the results on that list....but video game music????? I wouldn't have assumed that they counted.


----------



## quack (Oct 13, 2011)

It's worse than a list, it's a slideshow, damn near broke my mouse trying to read it.


----------



## pjang23 (Oct 8, 2009)

Not surprising, seeing how awful it also was in past years.


----------



## CypressWillow (Apr 2, 2013)

"Corolian" Overture? New one on me. Glad to learn that our friend LvB is still composing,


----------



## quack (Oct 13, 2011)

It is interesting that it lists various modern composers and works rarely, if ever, mentioned here: Patrick Hawes, Ludovico Einaudi, Jon Lord, Paul Mealor, Nigel Hess, Helen Jane Long, Peter Maxwell Davies or Shostakovich's _The Assault on Beautiful Gorky_, a work of his i'd never heard. It obviously has a bias towards British composers and rather light classical works, or whatever that radio station plays for them, but it shows classical music is still pottering along, despite reports of it's death. Sure it is getting by without a Beethoven or even an Elgar but it is still finding an audience. It wasn't murdered in the 1920s as some seem to think, it survived those mean old avant gardists and destructively dull minimalists, Glass even gets placed with his violin concerto.

Criticising this list whilst compiling another list just seems like all too common snobbism to me, harmful to the cause of classical music as it attempts to fossilise a repertoire.

Corolian Overture: About 968,000 results
Coriolan Overture: About 247,000 results

Seems like it got renamed by google when you weren't listening.


----------



## Ravndal (Jun 8, 2012)

I have no problem with elder scroll series by Jeremy Soule being no 5


----------



## CypressWillow (Apr 2, 2013)

quack said:


> Criticising this list whilst compiling another list just seems like all too common snobbism to me, harmful to the cause of classical music as it attempts to fossilise a repertoire.
> 
> Corolian Overture: About 968,000 results
> Coriolan Overture: About 247,000 results
> ...


 Guess I'll stick with the name the composer himself gave it. Apologies to all the folks who know better, of course.


----------



## Guest (Apr 7, 2013)

userfume said:


> http://halloffame.classicfm.com/2013/chart/p/300-251/#pieces-300-291
> 
> it is too depressing seeing some of the choices


Depressing? Why? Did you think that such a list would tally in its entirety with your personal tastes? Or with your own objective estimation of the 300 pieces that should have been included?

There seems to me to be an eminently helpful list - I might not have listened to Bruch and Part otherwise (although Spiegel am Spiegel is deadly dull)

[edit]

Mind you, I keep trying the naff things to listen to. The Bruch was dire, the Albinoni worse...I'm about to slit my wrists!

As for the Chorus of the Hebrew Slaves...eeeuuww!


----------



## sharik (Jan 23, 2013)

quack said:


> It obviously has a bias towards British composers


that's what explains it all.


----------



## userfume (Nov 21, 2012)

I was just shocked by the amount of video game music


----------



## trazom (Apr 13, 2009)

Rach 2 is at the top for the third time? They should just run the same list as last year. Movie and video game scores have no place in classical music either, & the fact that these listeners make no distinction or can't hear the difference shows just what a worthless compilation/countdown it is...in fact the whole thing is just awful, cheap, and ghastly.


----------



## GreenMamba (Oct 14, 2012)

There was a concerted effort on behalf of them to dominate the list. The list isn't representative of Classic FM's audience, let alone indicative of any objective standards.


----------



## Novelette (Dec 12, 2012)

I wouldn't get too upset over this. 

Except in one case... Bach's "Goldberg Variations" on #201?

Laughable.


----------



## Novelette (Dec 12, 2012)

Just don't tell our friend COAG that Sibelius' Violin Concerto is marked as #151.

Oops. =(


----------



## Crudblud (Dec 29, 2011)

Novelette said:


> Just don't tell our friend COAG that Sibelius' Violin Concerto is marked as #151.
> 
> Oops. =(


Don't worry. He's young, he'll love again.


----------



## StlukesguildOhio (Dec 25, 2006)

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> Frankly, I couldn't care less about the results on that list....but video game music????? I wouldn't have assumed that they counted.


You old pal, burningdesire, would have bitten your head off for that comment.


----------



## Guest (Apr 7, 2013)

trazom said:


> Movie and video game scores have no place in classical music either, & the fact that these listeners make no distinction or can't hear the difference shows just what a worthless compilation/countdown it is...in fact the whole thing is just awful, cheap, and ghastly.


Come on, speak your mind...say what you really think! There's around 5 and a half million listeners out there ready to be offended by your personal opinion.


----------



## Guest (Apr 7, 2013)

GreenMamba said:


> There was a concerted effort on behalf of them to dominate the list. The list isn't representative of Classic FM's audience, let alone indicative of any objective standards.


Unless you're suggesting that non-Classic FM vote in numbers, how is the Hall of Fame _not _representative of CFM's audience?


----------



## Tristan (Jan 5, 2013)

To be fair, I used to think it was "Corolian". When I was like, 8...

But really, that's how online classical stations often work, film scores and such show up among the mix. And there are some good pieces on the list. If people are listening to classical, that's a good thing in my opinion.


----------



## userfume (Nov 21, 2012)

Fair enough. I was excited to see the underrated Mozart Bassoon Concerto just about on the list!


----------



## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Novelette said:


> Bach's "Goldberg Variations" on #201?


Obviously the fix was in! Qui bono? Don't worry, I'm workin' the case.


----------



## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

Novelette said:


> Just don't tell our friend COAG that Sibelius' Violin Concerto is marked as #151.
> 
> Oops. =(




Well....Finlandia is 20-something...but Finlandia isn't as good as the violin concerto imo...


----------



## violadude (May 2, 2011)

Ravndal said:


> I have no problem with elder scroll series by Jeremy Soule being no 5


Do you really think that out of all the classical music ever written, that is the 5th best piece?...


----------



## Ravndal (Jun 8, 2012)

No. But i do enjoy seeing that video game music is getting so popular. It is a bridge over to classical music.


----------



## GreenMamba (Oct 14, 2012)

MacLeod said:


> Unless you're suggesting that non-Classic FM vote in numbers, how is the Hall of Fame _not _representative of CFM's audience?


I'm suggesting that non-Classic FM listeners mobilize. There was a campaign that began of Facebook to get video game scores to the top of the list. A lot of people who rarely, if ever, listen to Classic FM voted.

This happens all the time with online polls.


----------



## Crudblud (Dec 29, 2011)

Jeremy Soule is a purveyor of the worst kind of low level imitative garbage and I hold him, his fellows in the games industry and his counterparts in the film industry largely responsible for the gross homogenisation, cynicism and laziness encountered in the vast majority of modern video game and film soundtracks. He and his fellow trashmongers I also feel a particular personal hatred for; because of the trends described above, someone like myself who has, time and time again, involved themselves with the industry with the intention of creating something that is at the very least interesting, is shunned outright because their music does not contain the properties resulting from the most base, most banal, most insipid and most apathetic methods of musical thinking.


----------



## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

Crudblud said:


> Jeremy Soule is a purveyor of the worst kind of low level imitative garbage and I hold him, his fellows in the games industry and his counterparts in the film industry largely responsible for the gross homogenisation, cynicism and laziness encountered in the vast majority of modern video game and film soundtracks. He and his fellow trashmongers I also feel a particular personal hatred for; because of the trends described above, someone like myself who has, time and time again, involved themselves with the industry with the intention of creating something that is at the very least interesting, is shunned outright because their music does not contain the properties resulting from the most base, most banal, most insipid and most apathetic methods of musical thinking.


I have no idea who Jeremy Soule is, but that was an entertaining post.


----------



## violadude (May 2, 2011)

COAG, based on some of the things that actually made it on this list, I think some of our compositions should be on here as well.


----------



## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

Tristan said:


> ...
> But really, that's how online classical stations often work, film scores and such show up among the mix. And there are some good pieces on the list. If people are listening to classical, that's a good thing in my opinion.


Well yeah, like it or loathe it, its funding the 'real' or 'highbrow' classical now, more than before. In Australia its been for like a decade or more. Orchestras playing film and now video game soundtracks with visuals to bring in a younger crowd, and also get some much needed cash in their coffers. Sydney Symphony is doing Zelda, for example:

http://www.sydneysymphony.com/production-pages/2013/commercial-season/legend-of-zelda.aspx?pc=6235&

So maybe its inevitable that its going to be a fixed part of the classical music universe (I think film is already, always has been, like incidental music). As the saying goes "money talks" and maybe this radio poll reflects this. But fankly, I don't really care for these poll/voting things, or the lists at least, other than just looking at them. We've had a number of them here (eg. the ABC Classic FM Classic 100 Symphony) and its more interesting to hear when they broadcast the music and commentary/background of the works in the countdown, it can be very interesting (and I think they put a lot of effort into that). But as for the list itself, for me its more or less a reference point for discussion. & again, the radio makes these compilations which again, tend to sell well and make a bit of money for the station. So thats how it is, thats whats behind it, exposure and ultimately a bit of cash in the bank. So what? They still play the standard rep stuff (so do the orchestras). Its a different demographic, thats it. Its what companies of all sorts are doing, incl. in the classical music industry.


----------



## violadude (May 2, 2011)

I love the music of the Zelda Franchise. But even so, I would never put it as number 5 or so on a list of the best classical music ever written. Not even close. If I think about all the brilliant classical music that has been written over the years, as much as I love Zelda music, I'm not even sure it would make a list like this of 300 if I made my own.


----------



## mmsbls (Mar 6, 2011)

I personally would not place any video game music I've heard on a list such as this one, but I wonder if "light classical" could eventually bring in some young people to more standard repertoire. If they enjoy the music, which I suspect many do, they may wonder what other classical sounds like. I guess it's a bit early to see, but over the next 10-20 years we might see a generation of classical music lovers who got their start with video games.

The Classic FM list is quite different from any list I would propose or expect to see here on TC, but I'm always interested to see what music people love. I'm happy to see people enjoy classical music even if it's not the same music I especially like.


----------



## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

violadude said:


> I love the music of the Zelda Franchise. But even so, I would never put it as number 5 or so on a list of the best classical music ever written. Not even close. If I think about all the brilliant classical music that has been written over the years, as much as I love Zelda music, I'm not even sure it would make a list like this of 300 if I made my own.


Well then maybe it is better to compartmentalise the genres, as ABC Classic FM has done in Australia? (eg. separate polls & resulting lists for symphony, concerto, chamber, piano etc.) Rather than having a general list like this, with everything thrown in together which leads to a haphazard result.

But overall, all of these are basically marketing tools, whatever way they do it, its a fact of life now. Its done by marketing men, not by people who are involved with the music. Thats my perception anyway. But "the holy dollar" is what is paramount in today's world, and admittedly the happier post-war years when funding was plentiful is (I think) over for classical music. So they've got to close gaps in their funding, they got to find new income sources. & that's where film, crossover, video game music and so on come into the picture. Its a different place now from the post-war decades or even of 20 years ago, even within my lifetime things have changed (eg. much less free concerts now than back then!), and I think budgetary constraints are hitting hard in many things, not just classical of course.


----------



## Guest (Apr 8, 2013)

violadude said:


> Do you really think that out of all the classical music ever written, that is the 5th best piece?...


It seems that Classic FM have committed the same error occasionally committed here, and to which there are even dedicated threads: confused 'favourite' with 'best/greatest'.



GreenMamba said:


> I'm suggesting that non-Classic FM listeners mobilize. There was a campaign that began of Facebook to get video game scores to the top of the list. A lot of people who rarely, if ever, listen to Classic FM voted.
> 
> This happens all the time with online polls.


Can you point me to some evidence? I'm trying to find out numbers of those who voted, for example, and how/where. I find it somewhat unlikely that video game players have nothing better to do than deliberately disrupt a genuine poll of 'classical' music.



> The biggest celebration of the nation's *favourite *classical music


http://www.classicfm.com/hall-of-fame/


----------



## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Sid James said:


> Well then maybe it is better to compartmentalise the genres, as ABC Classic FM has done in Australia? (eg. separate polls & resulting lists for symphony, concerto, chamber, piano etc.) Rather than having a general list like this, with everything thrown in together which leads to a haphazard result.


See https://sites.google.com/site/kenocstuff/ama/best-works-by-genre


----------



## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

userfume said:


> http://halloffame.classicfm.com/2013/chart/p/300-251/#pieces-300-291
> 
> it is too depressing seeing some of the choices


LOL. Maybe it is a great piece with a more than unfortunate title, but "The Boom of the Tingling Strings." by Jon Lord, in slot #270, may just say it all

I wonder if any Eric Whitacre piece is on that list, but am always too irritated when these web pages force you to scroll through a little text with a lot of picture - I might have given it a complete quick scan if there was an alpha-only list on a scroll down page, but _No_, we must have _Pictures_....

And this is from the British channel which is infamous for playing single movements, 'bits of pieces' and being as close as near possible to a 'pops' classical station, is it not?


----------



## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

violadude said:


> I love the music of the Zelda Franchise. But even so, I would never put it as number 5 or so on a list of the best classical music ever written. Not even close. If I think about all the brilliant classical music that has been written over the years, as much as I love Zelda music, I'm not even sure it would make a list like this of 300 if I made my own.


Do you really think there is anything at all worthwhile in the Zelda Franchise music that would have attracted your attention, or 'love' if you had not grown up with the game? I have no 'connection' with it at all, and it sounds like corny, competent, generic run of the mill 'interchangeable with so much like it' film music.

That runs exactly the same for me with Howard Shore's score for Lord Of The Rings. Read the books, thought the movie felt endless and slow and overblown, so could not get past one half hour of it, leaving me with film music, pseudo celtic segments, etc. which also 'do nothing at all' to me as a listener.

I suppose you will never be able to remove your sentimental attachment and real experience with the Zelda music; perhaps a mini-lobotomy? But still, the next time you listen, imagine no connection and evaluate it again -- to humor me because I am genuinely curious as to why it has any appeal to anyone at all

To call either score, or even a part of them, classical music is staggeringly beyond all my knowledge and the scope of my imagination


----------



## violadude (May 2, 2011)

PetrB said:


> Do you really think there is anything at all worthwhile in the Zelda Franchise music that would have attracted your attention, or 'love' if you had not grown up with the game? I have no 'connection' with it at all, and it sounds like corny, competent, generic run of the mill 'interchangeable with so much like it' film music.
> 
> That runs exactly the same for me with Howard Shore's score for Lord Of The Rings. Read the books, thought the movie felt endless and slow and overblown, so could not get past one half hour of it, leaving me with film music, pseudo celtic segments, etc. which also 'do nothing at all' to me as a listener.
> 
> I suppose you will never be able to remove your sentimental attachment and real experience with the Zelda music; perhaps a mini-lobotomy? But still, the next time you listen, imagine no connection and evaluate it again -- to humor me because I am genuinely curious as to why it has any appeal to anyone at all


Oh Ya totally, I'm sure most of my love for Zelda's music comes from nostalgic attachments. It does represent the atmosphere it is trying to represent pretty well though.


----------



## Guest (Apr 8, 2013)

Sid James said:


> Well then maybe it is better to compartmentalise the genres, as ABC Classic FM has done in Australia? (eg. separate polls & resulting lists for symphony, concerto, chamber, piano etc.) Rather than having a general list like this, with everything thrown in together which leads to *a haphazard result.*


Come on Sid, are you suggesting that there ought to be an 'organised' (for which read 'proper') result?


----------



## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

Sid James said:


> Well yeah, like it or loathe it, its funding the 'real' or 'highbrow' classical now, more than before. In Australia its been for like a decade or more. Orchestras playing film and now video game soundtracks with visuals to bring in a younger crowd, and also get some much needed cash in their coffers. Sydney Symphony is doing Zelda, for example:
> 
> http://www.sydneysymphony.com/production-pages/2013/commercial-season/legend-of-zelda.aspx?pc=6235&
> 
> So maybe its inevitable that its going to be a fixed part of the classical music universe (I think film is already, always has been, like incidental music). As the saying goes "money talks" and maybe this radio poll reflects this. But frankly, I don't really care for these poll/voting things, or the lists at least, other than just looking at them. We've had a number of them here (eg. the ABC Classic FM Classic 100 Symphony) and its more interesting to hear when they broadcast the music and commentary/background of the works in the countdown, it can be very interesting (and I think they put a lot of effort into that). But as for the list itself, for me its more or less a reference point for discussion. & again, the radio makes these compilations which again, tend to sell well and make a bit of money for the station. So thats how it is, thats whats behind it, exposure and ultimately a bit of cash in the bank. So what? They still play the standard rep stuff (so do the orchestras). Its a different demographic, thats it. Its what companies of all sorts are doing, incl. in the classical music industry.


You are dead right on the shift in economics for these institutions to keep afloat and their doors open; in past decades, major orchestras had their ancillary / auxiliary orchestra, with some of its regular members and other young professionals not on contract for the regular season, playing 'pops' concerts all summer long, the revenues therefrom funding the primary orchestra's annual season.

Now, with a fiscal crunch which makes running both impossible, those 'pops' events are happening peppered throughout the regular season, and in the same hall / venue where the more 'non-pop' repertoire is performed.

I see no reason to take alarm, nor is it confusing. It may mislead those who think 'Zelda' or LOTR' is classical because they are hearing it in a venue labeled "The Sydney Symphony Orchestra" but that will not corrupt either those listeners or the more die hard 'non-pop' audiences. These events are also scheduled on days / evenings where nothing which is in any way part of the regular season is bumped or short changed, and they are announced in bold or couched language, anyway, as 'pops' concerts.

There is an odd, slightly humorous by-product / situation created from the continual barrage of those pops classical stations, and their playing single movements day in day out. The Concertgebouw scheduled Orff's Carmina Burana on its regular season programming, and sales for the seats which were not already sold to subscription holders was brisk. Many of those who bought a ticket thought they were going to hear 'O Fortuna,' and I don't know else what, but likely a program similar to classical FM where there would be 'O fortuna,' followed by short bits of other 'cool stuff.' Those audience members were rather shocked at 'how long' the entire Carmina Burana was, though I like to imagine a good number of them were well pleased to hear the rest of the work.

Everyone survived


----------



## Crudblud (Dec 29, 2011)

PetrB said:


> I suppose you will never be able to remove your sentimental attachment and real experience with the Zelda music; perhaps a mini-lobotomy? But still, the next time you listen, imagine no connection and evaluate it again -- to humor me because I am genuinely curious as to why it has any appeal to anyone at all


Video game music is, shock of all shocks, designed to be an interlocking component of an interactive audiovisual experience, whether it's Final Fantasy, Halo or Elder Scrolls. Final Fantasy is a good example because Nobuo Uematsu's work on the first nine numbered games in the series is widely considered to be among the best music in VG history, with Uematsu himself being an old master figure in the international scene. Similar praise is given to Koji Kondo, who is of course famous for his work on Zelda, Super Mario and other Nintendo titles. In Japan, soundtracks tend to embrace a wide range of musical ideas, from popular western styles to various traditional musics, especially of the orient, this is no more apparent than in the soundtrack for the anime series Cowboy Bebop, composed by Yoko Kanno, which draws (sometimes a little too directly) on the music of western 20th century pop culture, in keeping with the show itself. Not a VG soundtrack, of course, but it is a fine example. It's also worth noting that in the '90s, when 8- and 16-bit consoles that produced sounds using MIDI were all the composers had available to them, the inventiveness of the compositional programming is quite astounding, but you really need a good grounding in the limitations of the technology in that era in order to appreciate that.

When we come to the USA, gaming capital of the west, it's often the more bland and uninteresting "epic" music that is praised: Jeremy Soule (Elder Scrolls), Inon Zur (Fallout 3), Jesper Kyd (Hitman) and so on and so forth. In each of these composers' bodies of work, it can often be quite difficult to distinguish one soundtrack from another because they are all essentially one trick ponies, and people eat it up. We do have some (lesser know, I hasten to add) composers who have contributed notable soundtracks of a relatively inventive and varied nature, including Peter McConnell (Grim Fandango), Robin Beanland (Conker's Bad Fur Day) and Grant Kirkhope (Banjo Kazooie). One of the more famous non-standard western VG soundtracks is that Spyro the Dragon, composed by Stewart Copeland of The Police, but it's rare that anything beyond the "epic orchestral" (which I despise with a ******* passion) gets much credit in mainstream VG circles these days.

My hatred of "epic" music aside, the point is that video game music is designed to be experienced as part of the game first and foremost, whether or not it is interesting as a standalone work has very little bearing on its value _as a soundtrack._


----------



## Guest (Apr 8, 2013)

Ah, now I get it! The real objection is that Skyrim (which is awful sub-Zimmer formulaic) knocked the (oh-so-deserving-never mind-its-not-really-classical) Military Wives off 5th spot.

http://metro.co.uk/2012/04/10/milit...-no-5-spot-in-classic-fm-hall-of-fame-382129/

As must have been observed umpteeen times before, if Cage's 4'33" can be counted as 'classical', then so can Skyrim and Military Wives. Personally, I can't abide Classic FM, which sounds like one long Mellow Birds'/Gold Blend coffee ad, but if 5.5 million people (as claimed) listen to Mozart et al as a result, and are not really listening to Soule (as claimed) then what's all the ruckus???


----------



## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

MacLeod said:


> Come on Sid, are you suggesting that there ought to be an 'organised' (for which read 'proper') result?


Well the Australian radio polls/countdowns and resulting lists group together one genre, as I said. So it makes sense, I think, not to lump them all together - everything from ancient musics and Gregorian chant to the latest electroacoustic and cutting edge musics. I mean that's like hundreds of years, over 500 years of music history. So I think we can perhaps compartmentalise video game music with incidental and film music (maybe even ballet?). Dunno, its just a thought (read below for more on that!).



PetrB said:


> ...
> 
> I see no reason to take alarm, nor is it confusing. It may mislead those who think 'Zelda' or LOTR' is classical because they are hearing it in a venue labeled "The Sydney Symphony Orchestra" but that will not corrupt either those listeners or the more die hard 'non-pop' audiences.


I actually agree with your post, the whole of it, except your view that film music isn't classical music (if that's what you mean?). But we've argued about this before. As I said, to me its much like an extension of incidental music or maybe even ballet. Early on, some composers segued from incidental music to film music (eg. Korngold and Walton). & ballet is one of the most restrictive genres in classical as you have to link it to choreography, a bit like you have to link a film soundtrack (sync it) to what's going on in the film, second by second. I know the reason Tchaikovsky found composing ballet so strenuous is that he had to work with the dancers and things like what tempo the music was in was controlled to a high degree by what they could/would do on stage. Ironic, but understandable, nobody had written ballet music of such high level as he did up till that point. So what I'm saying is that there's these constraints, and there's applying classical techniques to these constraints.



PetrB said:


> ...
> 
> There is an odd, slightly humorous by-product / situation created from the continual barrage of those pops classical stations, and their playing single movements day in day out. The Concertgebouw scheduled Orff's Carmina Burana on its regular season programming, and sales for the seats which were not already sold to subscription holders was brisk. Many of those who bought a ticket thought they were going to hear 'O Fortuna,' and I don't know else what, but likely a program similar to classical FM where there would be 'O fortuna,' followed by short bits of other 'cool stuff.' Those audience members were rather shocked at 'how long' the entire Carmina Burana was, though I like to imagine a good number of them were well pleased to hear the rest of the work.
> 
> Everyone survived


But that's another issue and a minor issue in regards to your post which I agreed. With your anecdote of Carmina Burana at Amsterdam, a similar thing happened in Sydney when they did Walton's Henry V as part of the popular family concert in open air in Summer a few years ago. It was an all Shakespeare program (except the concluding 1812 Overture which is always done). So you got, along with Walton, works of Prokofiev, Otto Nicolai, Mendelssohn. John Bell, one of our best Shakespearean actors, did the narration.

I thought it was great, so did most people who saw it, but one person said they found it too highbrow. I think that says to me that film music can fall between two stools - not highbrow enough for ultra highbrows, and not lowbrow enough for ultra lowbrows. Its those at more extreme polarities that might not think it 'real' music or good enough or whatever. But I think its more to do with a persons taste regarding a particular genre rather than the quality of the music itself.

But so what? Tchaikovsky basically thought doing the ballets - especially The Nutcracker, which is now one of the most popular ballets of them all - was hackwork, he thought that one in particular to be rubbish. Of course he was one of the most self critical of all composers, but this to me shows how you had similar attitudes devaluing ballet (which was just emerging as an independent artfrom, independent as 'entertainments' part of operas and plays and so on). So maybe film is similar with regards to what some people think. I don't think its necessarily wrong or invalid, just the opposite of what I think.


----------



## GreenMamba (Oct 14, 2012)

MacLeod said:


> Can you point me to some evidence? I'm trying to find out numbers of those who voted, for example, and how/where. I find it somewhat unlikely that video game players have nothing better to do than deliberately disrupt a genuine poll of 'classical' music.


There's a lot of stuff online.

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2...spams-games-journalists-about-classical-music
https://www.facebook.com/ClassicVGMusic
http://www.gaminglives.com/2013/02/05/campaign-for-game-music-recognition-revs-up-for-2013/

From the opening paragraph of the top link (bolding added):



> If you've written about games in the UK over the last few years, then you might have had an email or two in that time bearing this alarming headline. They come from Mark Robins, a 13-year games industry veteran who used to work as a journalist at Computec and Future Publishing before moving into PR. He's pretty well known - *the firm he works at, Lunch PR, is an agency whose clients include Bethesda Softworks - and Robins' emails are always about the same thing: he wants you to vote video game music into the Classic FM Hall of Fame*.


----------



## userfume (Nov 21, 2012)

GreenMamba said:


> There's a lot of stuff online.
> 
> http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2...spams-games-journalists-about-classical-music
> https://www.facebook.com/ClassicVGMusic
> ...


I cannot believe the comments under the Eurogamer article


----------



## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

Sid James said:


> I actually agree with your post, the whole of it, except your view that film music isn't classical music (if that's what you mean?). But we've argued about this before. As I said, to me its much like an extension of incidental music or maybe even ballet. .... what I'm saying is that there's these constraints, and there's applying classical techniques to these constraints. ...But so what?


Your syllogism, i.e. if the composer has classical training, and uses classical techniques in a film score or video game score, then it is classical -- fallacious in the extreme. As this article posits, that holds as much water as the argument that if it uses a guitar then it must be rock music.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/music/musicblog/2008/apr/07/canfilmmusiceverbeclassical

As Crudblud put it about video game scores, they are all over the map derivative, borrow / crib from an olio of genres, and they are _Video Game Scores_!

_Ditto for Film Scores._

Your perpetual, 'so whats' and Aw Shucks inflected "it is all the same to me." Are not winning points in a debate like this, but actually reveal you do not care to, are incapable of, or refuse *to discern* -- always a losing suite when the debate is about making a distinction.

You regularly bring in the *'High / Middle / Low 'brow'* expression, one _I still wonder at as to what compels you to constantly bring it into so many discussions, what must it be you perceive which has it 'present on your screen at all.' i.e. where the hell it comes from and what that is all about_, to be really frank.

*"The Class Issue Guy,"* and I do not think that is at all the point of any of the discussion as to what or why Classical is one genre, Video Game and Film Soundtrack other genres. That, as opposed to your offhanded cavalier "so what" seems to be for you, actually, a Very Big Deal indeed, _FRAUGHT_ with social implications which I find, uh, in the realms of fantasy fiction.

Movie Scores are movie scores, more often than not also highly derivative, an olio of genres tossed into a blender which has been set on 'purée.' Once in a while there is a score by a composer who has been given far greater creative license than usual, has a real individual voice vs. a masque of a bag of an amazing facility, including chameleon genre ability, and we get a great score, still episodic as fit to the film. Some of those make it, composer revised, into a suite which gets done on, again, usually the 'lighter programming venues of symphonic organizations. Those suites are still 'film music.'


----------



## sharik (Jan 23, 2013)

hey, relax everyone, this FM poll list was rigged like they always do, and that's it.


----------



## Klavierspieler (Jul 16, 2011)

No Schumann 'til one-hundred fifty something? This list can be safely ignored.


----------



## mmsbls (Mar 6, 2011)

PetrB said:


> As Crudblud put it about video game scores, they are all over the map derivative, borrow / crib from an olio of genres, and they are _Video Game Scores_!
> 
> Movie Scores are movie scores, more often than not also highly derivative, an olio of genres tossed into a blender which has been set on 'purée.'


I have no problem placing film scores in a separate category, but I'm still a bit confused as to why one would be _silly_ to consider any film scores as classical music. The Guardian article says:

"Whether a piece is classical or not has nothing to do with the forces involved, but with the way in which it is intended to be listened to. Classical music is designed to be considered, contemplated and - being the most abstract of all the art forms - to provoke a truly subjective response in each of its listeners. Film music, on the other hand, is meant to accompany moving pictures, to provide an objective commentary to the on-screen action. Robbed of that on-screen imagery, it loses much of its meaning."

Of course, if one hears a piece of music by itself, one would have no way of knowing "the way in which it is intended to be listened to." I'm not at all certain that every work we consider classical was designed to be "considered, contemplated" and to "provoke a truly subjective response in each of its listeners." Film music is meant to accompany films and ballet music was written to accompany ballets. Film music may be derivative and borrow, but I still don't see how that clearly defines it as separate from all film scores.

Perhaps the vast majority of film scores have qualities that could clearly separate them from what we feel is classical music, but certainly it's conceivable that _some_ scores could be considered similar to ballet compositions - interesting music that is contemplated standing alone but was written to accompany visual art.

Or is there something definitive that I'm missing?


----------



## deggial (Jan 20, 2013)

userfume said:


> I cannot believe the comments under the Eurogamer article


to each their own... although that guy's zeal (_attention games industry colleagues!_) is quite overbearing.


----------



## Guest (Apr 8, 2013)

Any cricket fans out there?

Is '20-20' real cricket? Are any of the 1-day games real cricket? Was real cricket (5 day test matches) always going to be ruined by the subversion of tradition?

The term 'classical' is increasingly redundant except for periodists who want to use it for music of a particular historical era, or purists who, presumably, have to consider each and every offered candidate and rule...

"Yes, classical."
"No, film music"

using a set of criteria that they evolve as they go along.

Listening to the Nabucco (I criticised earlier), it doesn't require much contemplation or consideration, the orchestral accompaniment is almost irrelevant...it's just tribal singing, meant to stir the blood. Is anyone going to argue that it's classical?


----------



## deggial (Jan 20, 2013)

MacLeod said:


> *The term 'classical' is increasingly redundant* except for periodists who want to use it for music of a particular historical era, or purists who, presumably, have to consider each and every offered candidate and rule...
> 
> "Yes, classical."
> "No, film music"


agreed, so why does it bother you whether said purists stamp video game scores out as one or the other? it's just a (rather vague) term...


----------



## Crudblud (Dec 29, 2011)

What I dislike most about the idea of VG music as classical music is that it is coming from a small but vocal minority who have bought in to the falsehood that classical music is _superior_ music. The idea that a composer must be "classical" in order to be valid is really what guides the whole idea; it is an attempt to, by some arcane system of quantification, raise a particular music to the height of another simply so that they who listen to it can appear to be superior by some order of magnitude to those who do not. It's the working class man sitting down in a café with some bourgeois elite for some expensive coffee that he doesn't even like the taste of for the sake of having felt like he "made it", and more importantly so he can tell everyone that he did. A culture of imagined inadequacy, a mass inferiority complex, call it what you will it is not endemic to listeners of VG music, we have observed that certain listeners of film music too feel the need to strive for the top of this imaginary ladder of cultural value, as do certain portions of the audience for heavy metal music.

I love a good deal of "classic" VG music, mostly of games that I grew up playing (as PetrB will no doubt find encouraging) although there are games that I never really played much of, or perhaps never even liked, which I find myself listening to as well. There are also games that I love whose soundtracks I do not care for in the slightest, Harry Gregson Williams' work on the _Metal Gear Solid_ series being a prime example. But love it, hate it or merely tolerate or ignore it, I have never found myself wanting to have my taste validated by others, though I may be an anomaly in this bizarre aspirational culture of ours which encourages us to act as though the prime reason for doing anything is to be appointed a status. It's incredibly petty and really quite sad. VG music is VG music, some of it is good, some of it is bad, but it is only ever good or bad VG music, one sub-spectrum of music as a whole, and there's no reason to pretend otherwise.


----------



## LordBlackudder (Nov 13, 2010)

the station doesn't play one period of classical music it plays new works as well.

if they said they only play 1730 - 1800 era than the new additions would be inappropriate.

in order for the station to function it must play new works. they cannot interview dead people.


----------



## GreenMamba (Oct 14, 2012)

I want them to play new music, but VG is hardly the only choice.

If I felt that the VG fans were using this as a springboard to get into Classical, I'd be happier. But I'm not sure that's the case.

Following up on Crud Blood, why not have a VG music station for them to listen to? Why cut into Classic FM? Heck, they could just as easily spammed a New Age station's list.


----------



## Novelette (Dec 12, 2012)

Klavierspieler said:


> No Schumann 'til one-hundred fifty something? This list can be safely ignored.


My sentiments precisely.


----------



## Klavierspieler (Jul 16, 2011)

LordBlackudder said:


> they cannot interview dead people.


Why not? Hilary Hahn interviewed a fish.


----------



## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

MacLeod said:


> ...
> The term 'classical' is increasingly redundant except for periodists who want to use it for music of a particular historical era, or purists who, presumably, have to consider each and every offered candidate and rule...
> 
> "Yes, classical."
> ...


That's right. But blending of 'high' and 'low' art has been happening for ages. Go back to the Medieval period, when troubadours would sings songs both on the street and in the courts, or to Haydn who put all things under the sun into his symphonies (tunes heard in taverns etc), or to Saint-Saens who put (gasp!) can cans and ballet tunes into the finales of his piano concertos (the purists of the day where not happy!), or gypsy tunes (Brahms did similar), or Satie writing cabaret songs which are now considered high art, or to the 1960's when minimalists like Glass and Reich where more influenced by jazz, world music and rock than by serialism or avant garde or stuff like that, or to John Adams incorporating tunes from cartoons into his music, or Thomas Ades incorporating rhythms of techno. I can give other examples.

Not to mention leading composers of the c20th doing film music, some of these are my favourites. That illustrious list includes Shostakovich, Walton, Korngold, Glass, Prokofiev, Bernstein, Vaughan Williams, Auric, etc. Granted that it was not easy to do it and some of them didn't like doing it (regarding the specific restrictions I talked to above about the genre). But there where those who specialised in it and gave us their finest works through film scores and suites, eg. Herrmann, Rota, Morricone, Goldsmith, John Williams, and so on).

But people can do as they wish. They can categorise as they want. I'm not even going to comment any further on video game music (its not my area of focus), but I have a hunch its similar to film music, incidental music and ballet as a genre thats got these restrictions around it, they've all got that element in common I think.

All this proves is that classical music is evolving. Its always been evolving. So we can argue forever what is and isn't classical music. I see it as more a matter of opinion than anything, based on experience, that's why I provided examples in this and in my others posts. But its largely a waste of time & yeah I've said this hundreds of times on this forum, in many discussions of this sort when people try impose THEIR categorisation on others. But its fruitless, there will be a diversity of opinion about these things (I respect that), it goes with the territory.


----------



## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

Crudblud said:


> What I dislike most about the idea of VG music as classical music is that it is coming from a small but vocal minority who have bought in to the falsehood that classical music is _superior_ music. The idea that a composer must be "classical" in order to be valid is really what guides the whole idea; it is an attempt to, by some arcane system of quantification, raise a particular music to the height of another simply so that they who listen to it can appear to be superior by some order of magnitude to those who do not. It's the working class man sitting down in a café with some bourgeois elite for some expensive coffee that he doesn't even like the taste of for the sake of having felt like he "made it", and more importantly so he can tell everyone that he did. A culture of imagined inadequacy, a mass inferiority complex, call it what you will it is not endemic to listeners of VG music, we have observed that certain listeners of film music too feel the need to strive for the top of this imaginary ladder of cultural value, as do certain portions of the audience for heavy metal music.
> 
> I love a good deal of "classic" VG music, mostly of games that I grew up playing (as PetrB will no doubt find encouraging) although there are games that I never really played much of, or perhaps never even liked, which I find myself listening to as well. There are also games that I love whose soundtracks I do not care for in the slightest, Harry Gregson Williams' work on the _Metal Gear Solid_ series being a prime example. But love it, hate it or merely tolerate or ignore it, I have never found myself wanting to have my taste validated by others, though I may be an anomaly in this bizarre aspirational culture of ours which encourages us to act as though the prime reason for doing anything is to be appointed a status. It's incredibly petty and really quite sad. VG music is VG music, some of it is good, some of it is bad, but it is only ever good or bad VG music, one sub-spectrum of music as a whole, and there's no reason to pretend otherwise.


Bravo!

Whether I agreed with you or not on this, hats off on how articulate this is. Admiration and envy creep into my bloodstream.

But I do agree with you, it is some bizarre aspiration borne via a rampant inverse snobbery, under the cloak of an 'aw shucks' "common man" humility, and false humility at that. Snobbery, pure and simple, in a magnitude rarely found of that group who are most deeply into 'pure' classical music and most often accused of it.

'Classical' includes the fluffiest of the fluffy, the most immediate 'no-thought no attention needed accessible music, all the way to pieces to which the listener must give the utmost attentive ear, thought, and "work at" to make sense and extract meaning.

I see the entire kerfuffle more like a wildly emotional spat vs. the dispassionate discussion it ought to be, say as discussing the distinction, between a butterfly, or a bird, or the distinction between two kinds of birds. There is no 'value judgement' just making a distinction between various genus and species.

TC has a category, "Film Music," I had nothing to do with that, and I am very glad it is there. Film music, at its best, is more than worthy of admiration, the degree of skill and craft not to be denied.

I think anyone who has 'class issues' of wishing to think of 'what they like' as rubbing elbows with the hobnobs needs a head-check. Those 'hob-nobs' have worked longer for their credentials than many in the trades or business sectors, and often make far less for their entire life. I cannot see why people with 'upward ambition' would latch on to that sort of 'subject' and wish to be thought a part of that crowd.

To categorize art, the most gravely serious to the most inconsequential fluff, as either 'high / low / or 'middle' brow is to demean each and every bracket of the genres, and trivialize not only the stuff itself, but those who find pleasure and meaning in them.

Thank you for your highly articulate and cool-headed post


----------



## Guest (Apr 9, 2013)

deggial said:


> agreed, so why does it bother you whether said purists stamp video game scores out as one or the other? it's just a (rather vague) term...


It doesn't 'bother' me. Purists must do what they will. They just can't expect us all to go along with them.



Crudblud said:


> What I dislike most about the idea of VG music as classical music is that it is coming from a small but vocal minority who have bought in to the falsehood that classical music is _superior_ music.


I like this post. The problem is that there are those who do believe that classical is _superior _music and want to make sure its purity is somehow maintained. Thus, an example of the unspeakable in pursuit of the inedible



Sid James said:


> That's right. But blending of 'high' and 'low' art has been happening for ages.


Ay, there's the rub. I'm glad you use scare quotes.


----------



## TwoFourPianist (Mar 28, 2013)

userfume said:


> I was just shocked by the amount of video game music


The amount? There were only three pieces!

Stop being offended and enjoy the music!


----------



## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

MacLeod said:


> Depressing? Why? Did you think that such a list would tally in its entirety with your personal tastes? Or with your own objective estimation of the 300 pieces that should have been included?
> 
> There seems to me to be an eminently helpful list - I might not have listened to Bruch and Part otherwise (although Spiegel am Spiegel is deadly dull)
> 
> ...


Up and at 'em,that's what I say!


----------



## userfume (Nov 21, 2012)

TwoFourPianist said:


> The amount? There were only three pieces!
> 
> Stop being offended and enjoy the music!


OK maybe only 3 pieces.... except two were above Beethoven.


----------



## sharik (Jan 23, 2013)

video games or not, this stuff is bad not for it belongs to video games or movies but for being second-hand and talentless.


----------



## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

sharik said:


> that's what explains it all.


Maybe that's because it's a British radio station---I'm afraid.


----------



## Op.123 (Mar 25, 2013)

No Brahms VC Until !77, How, How, How , how, how, how
????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## sharik (Jan 23, 2013)

moody said:


> Maybe that's because it's a British radio station---I'm afraid.


i see but why not leave classical music alone and start playing britpop or punk or acid house since jingoism is on rise in Britain.


----------



## Guest (Apr 9, 2013)

sharik said:


> since jingoism is on rise in Britain.


Is it? You can tell that all the way from Moscow?


----------



## sharik (Jan 23, 2013)

MacLeod said:


> Is it? You can tell that all the way from Moscow?


we're on the net aren't we? Moscow is also not in North Korea. The Hall of Defame was on a British site, correct me if wrong?

i wonder if once the Brits decide to compete with Germans in philosophy, who would they pit against there Shopenhauers and Nietzsches: Harry Potter or David Beckham?


----------



## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

sharik said:


> we're on the net aren't we? Moscow is also not in North Korea. The Hall of Defame was on a British site, correct me if wrong?
> 
> i wonder if once the Brits decide to compete with Germans in philosophy, who would they pit against there Shopenhauers and Nietzsches: Harry Potter or David Beckham?


What about Bertrand Russell?


----------



## sharik (Jan 23, 2013)

Mahlerian said:


> What about Bertrand Russell?


who is that?


----------



## Guest (Apr 9, 2013)

sharik said:


> we're on the net aren't we? Moscow is also not in North Korea. The Hall of Defame was on a British site, correct me if wrong?
> 
> i wonder if once the Brits decide to compete with Germans in philosophy, who would they pit against there Shopenhauers and Nietzsches: Harry Potter or David Beckham?


So, you think you can understand what it's like here (I'm not in London, btw) just by looking on the net? Which sites do you rely on for your sources? And where should I go to get a realistic picture of what Moscow is like - or Russia?


----------



## sharik (Jan 23, 2013)

MacLeod said:


> Which sites do you rely on for your sources?


http://www.classicfm.com



MacLeod said:


> where should I go to get a realistic picture of what Moscow is like


no such exemplary site exists.


----------



## EricABQ (Jul 10, 2012)

What could possibly go wrong with making broad assumptions about an entire nation based on one internet poll?


----------



## Guest (Apr 9, 2013)

sharik said:


> http://www.classicfm.com
> 
> no such exemplary site exists.


And I'd say no such exemplary site exists for Britain, and, more specifically, I don't see how looking at classicfm's website informs you that "jingoism is on rise in Britain".


----------



## deggial (Jan 20, 2013)

sharik said:


> i wonder if once the Brits decide to compete with Germans in philosophy, who would they pit against there Shopenhauers and Nietzsches: Harry Potter or David Beckham?


there's quite a few much less morose ones than S&N if you care to look 'em up. Says more about you, really, if you can't think of any besides 'arry and Becks. But while we're at it, do you think Nietzsche could score from a set piece?


----------



## sharik (Jan 23, 2013)

deggial said:


> do you think Nietzsche could score from a set piece?


that is the point. we should not compare apples and oranges, Gershwin and Bach, etc.


----------



## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

LordBlackudder said:


> they cannot interview dead people.


I have a CD recording of an interview with Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart.


----------



## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

Ravndal said:


> I have no problem with elder scroll series by Jeremy Soule being no 5


15 seconds
30 seconds
4 seconds

The amount of time from the start of each track (in their listed order) before I had heard everything I needed to know about the rest of the link.

"One man's meat is another's poison."


----------



## Ravndal (Jun 8, 2012)

Predictability isn't everything.

Not for me at least. I can enjoy just being in the moment, in that exact mood/atmosphere.

I agree that VG music and CM should not be compared, since it's two different things, BUT as i wrote before - I don't mind VG music getting so much attention, most of their listeners will end up with classical music. especially if Jeremy Soule succeeds to introduce them to "symphonies"

http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/499808045/from-the-composer-of-skyrim-soule-symphony-no-1


----------



## Crudblud (Dec 29, 2011)

*"Some darker moments in The Northerner will reflect the night sky and the ancient light that has always caressed our eyes. Since my childhood, I have been intensely interested in astronomy. Structures in the symphony will reflect the constellations. I will leave it to the musicologists to unearth where these secrets have been buried within the score." - Jeremy Soule*

I'm surprised he can see the stars from where his head has been buried within his ****.


----------



## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

sharik said:


> who is that?


Who is that indeed---but as you say we're on the net so I'm sure you can find out.


----------



## sharik (Jan 23, 2013)

moody said:


> Who is that indeed---but as you say we're on the net so I'm sure you can find out.


lol, as you might guess i of course went and read up on him in wiki first off, but it only convinced me to ask that question.


----------



## Chrythes (Oct 13, 2011)

I think TC should add the title "Troll" along with Senior Member and the others.


----------



## Crudblud (Dec 29, 2011)

Chrythes said:


> I think TC should add the title "Troll" along with Senior Member and the others.


Careful, I got banned for saying as much.


----------



## EricABQ (Jul 10, 2012)

Crudblud said:


> Careful, I got banned for saying as much.


And I got a post deleted and warned. I then used the phrase "deliberate irritant" and that seemed to be acceptable.


----------



## Crudblud (Dec 29, 2011)

EricABQ said:


> And I got a post deleted and warned. I then used the phrase "deliberate irritant" and that seemed to be acceptable.


Very interesting. Noted.


----------



## Ryan (Dec 29, 2012)

How many infractions can you get before they switch you off?


----------



## EricABQ (Jul 10, 2012)

Crudblud said:


> Very interesting. Noted.


Of course, they may have just missed my use of that phrase, so use at your own risk.


----------



## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

The only substantial difference between this list, and a TC list, both yields from voting polls, is that they reflect the demographic of the listener base polled. Those on TC who wish to think the TC lists far more erudite or superior may soothe their ruffled feathers with that thought, the TC lists participants on a whole much more 'rehearsed' 'learned' and far less casual than the Classic FM list, but both are rife with 'popular' vs. 'great.' 

The lists from either source often have seriously odd choices in high positions, and each have by way of omissions, some stunning voids of pieces absent which should be present.


----------



## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

I would like to see the PetrB list. Perhaps we can compile it with your other posts into the 67th book of the bible.


----------



## SiegendesLicht (Mar 4, 2012)

sharik said:


> i wonder if once the Brits decide to compete with Germans in philosophy, who would they pit against there Shopenhauers and Nietzsches: Harry Potter or David Beckham?


Somehow I have a suspicion that someone who asks such questions, knows, out of all works of Schopenhauer and Nietzsche, only their names.


----------



## sharik (Jan 23, 2013)

SiegendesLicht said:


> someone who asks such questions, knows, out of all works of Schopenhauer and Nietzsche, only their names.


you're right because of Schopenhauer i know only from Tolstoy's and as for Nietzsche i read only _Thus Spoke Zarathustra_ & _Antichrist_, so what?


----------



## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

About as embarrassing as the choices for the list is the presentation, with ill-chosen pictures and descriptions that give no information, false information, or redundant information.

After reading about how an opera has "great opera arias" and how Mahler labored over his 8th (it progressed more smoothly than any of the symphonies that preceded it, especially the 4th), I come to the following erudite remark about Beethoven's "Corolian" overture: "Concerned about giving too much of the plot away in the overture by summing up the entire play in one movement, Beethoven stresses the over-arching moods in the story, rather than attempting to capture the narrative. He was not quite so wise in his overture to his opera, Fidelio: after a number of attempts, he packed the overture with all the most exciting musical themes, _rendering the opera itself becomes almost redundant_!"


----------



## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

Couchie said:


> I would like to see the PetrB list. Perhaps we can compile it with your other posts into the 67th book of the bible.


Sorry, nothing Biblical Proportion about any physical or 'metaphysical' part of me.

I don't 'do' lists. I may be promiscuous, but it is serial monogamy for me: I take'em each for what they are, one at a time.

I'll leave 'Epic' to video game scores, film scores, Wagner (from which, for good or ill, so much of the pastiche 'epic' sound is derived) and the late romantics, TYVM.

We know _your_ list is Wagner, top all the way to the bottom


----------



## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

siegendeslicht said:


> somehow i have a suspicion that someone who asks such questions, knows, out of all works of schopenhauer and nietzsche, only their names.


_and_ Boris Becker.

Really, if you met a lot of 'average Joe' Germans, many of them don't know any more about those guys than as you've suspected.

Prior the Euro, Every German knew those names -- if they were faces on the paper German currency.


----------



## sharik (Jan 23, 2013)

PetrB said:


> I don't 'do' lists


indeed, after the world has seen such an amount of 'lists' and 'polls' and 'ratings' already, while none of them was to any use other than advertising and cheating, we must seriously consider the necessity to pay no attention to any lists or polls or ratings, from now on.


----------



## Guest (Apr 11, 2013)

sharik said:


> we must seriously consider the necessity to pay no attention to any lists or polls or ratings, from now on.


and, while we're giving serious consideration to necessities, to posts that make wild assertions that don't stand up to scrutiny.


----------



## Op.123 (Mar 25, 2013)

This list is *VERY, VERY, VERY, VERY,* disappointing. Enough said.


----------



## Op.123 (Mar 25, 2013)

This is what the list _should_ have looked like.

1. Mass In B Minor - Johann Sebastian Bach

2. Der Ring des Nibelungen - Richard Wagner

3. Symphony No. 9 in D minor "Choral" - Ludwig Van Beethoven

4. Symphony No. 5 in C minor - Ludwig Van Beethoven

5. St Matthew's Passion - Johann Sebastian Bach

6. Tristan und Isolde - Richard Wagner

7. Don Giovanni - Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart

8. String Quartet No. 14 in C sharp minor - Ludwig Van Beethoven

9. Messiah - George Frideric Handel

10. Rite of Spring - Igor Stravinsky

11. Symphony No. 3 in E flat major "Eroica" - Ludwig Van Beethoven

12. Symphony No. 6 in B minor "Pathetique" - Peter Ilitch Tchaikovsky

13. Otello - Giuseppe Verdi

14. Piano Sonata No. 23 in F minor "Appassionata" - Ludwig Van Beethoven

15. The Marriage of Figaro - Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart

16. Symphony No. 41 in C major "Jupiter" - Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart

17. Piano Concerto No. 20 in D minor - Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart

18. Well-Tempered Clavier - Johann Sebastian Bach

19. Symphony No. 9 in E minor "From the New World" - Antonin Dvorák

20. Winterreise - Franz Schubert

21. Piano Concerto No. 2 in B flat major - Johannes Brahms

22. Piano Concerto in A minor - Robert Schumann

23. String Quintet in C major - Franz Schubert

24. Aida - Giuseppe Verdi

25. Piano Concerto No. 5 in E flat major "Emperor" - Ludwig Van Beethoven

26. The Nutcracker - Peter Ilitch Tchaikovsky

27. Symphony No. 6 in F major "Pastorale" - Ludwig Van Beethoven

28. Passacaglia and Fugue in C minor - Johann Sebastian Bach

29. Symphony No. 40 in G minor - Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart

30. Symphony No. 4 in E minor - Johannes Brahms

31. The Goldberg Variations - Johann Sebastian Bach

32. A Midsummer Night's Dream - Felix Mendelssohn

33. Violin Concerto in E minor - Felix Mendelssohn

34. Symphony No. 9 in C major "The Great" - Franz Schubert

35. Pictures at an Exhibition - Modest Mussorgsky (orch. by Maurice Ravel)

36. Clarinet Quintet in A major "Stadler" - Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart

37. Prelude A L'apres Midi D'un Faune - Claude Debussy

38. Symphonie Fantastique - Hector Berlioz

39. Clarinet Quintet in B minor - Johannes Brahms

40. Petrouchka - Igor Stravinsky

41. Violin Concerto in D major - Ludwig Van Beethoven

42. La Boheme - Giacomo Puccini

43. Piano Sonata in B minor - Franz Liszt

44. Cello Concerto in B minor - Antonin Dvorák

45. The Four Seasons - Antonio Vivaldi

46. Swan Lake - Peter Ilitch Tchaikovsky

47. Piano Concerto No. 1 in B flat minor - Peter Ilitch Tchaikovsky

48. Piano Sonata No. 21 in B flat - Franz Schubert

49. Till Eulenspiegel - Richard Strauss

50. Symphony No. 8 in B minor "Unfinished" - Franz Schubert

51. Missa Solemnis - Ludwig Van Beethoven

52. Messa Da Requiem - Giuseppe Verdi

53. Piano Sonata No. 14 in C sharp minor "Moonlight" - Ludwig Van Beethoven

54. Symphony No. 5 in C sharp minor - Gustav Mahler

55. Symphony No. 2 in D minor - Jean Sibelius

56. Requiem - Gabriel Fauré

57. Madama Butterfly - Giacomo Puccini

58. String Quartet No. 14 in D minor "Death & the Maiden" - Franz Schubert

59. Piano Concerto No. 2 in C minor - Sergei Rachmaninoff

60. La Mer - Claude Debussy

61. 24 Preludes - Frederic Chopin

62. Water Music - George Frideric Handel

63. Violin Concerto in D major - Johannes Brahms

64. Piano Quintet in A major "The Trout" - Franz Schubert

65. String Quartet No. 13 in B flat major and Grosse Fugue - Ludwig van Beethoven

66. Also Sprach Zarathustra - Richard Strauss

67. Violin Partita No. 2 in D minor - Johann Sebastian Bach

68. Préludes, Book 1 - Claude Debussy

69. Piano Concerto in A minor - Edvard Grieg

70. Symphony No. 7 in A major - Ludwig Van Beethoven

71. Polonaise No. 6 in A flat major "Heroic" - Frederic Chopin

72. Symphony No. 2 in C minor "Resurrection" - Gustav Mahler

73. Piano Concerto No. 4 in G major - Ludwig Van Beethoven

74. Symphony No. 10 in E minor - Dmitri Shostakovich

75. String Quartet No. 15 in A minor - Ludwig van Beethoven

76. Symphony No. 5 in D minor - Dmitri Shostakovich

77. String Quintet No. 4 in G minor, K516 - Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart

78. Parsifal - Richard Wagner

79. Finlandia - Jean Sibelius

80. Ein Heldenleben - Richard Strauss

81. Der Rosenkavalier - Richard Strauss

82. Appalachian Spring - Aaron Copland

83. Piano Sonata No. 32 in C minor - Ludwig Van Beethoven

84. Boris Godunov - Modest Mussorgsky

85. Symphony No. 3 in F major - Johannes Brahms

86. La Traviata - Giuseppe Verdi

87. Carmen - Georges Bizet

88. Scheherazade - Nikolai Rimsky-Korsakov

89. Die Zauberflote - Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart

90. Piano Concerto No. 21 in C major - Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart

91. Piano Concerto No. 24 in C minor - Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart

92. Requiem - Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart

93. Missa Papae Marcelli - Giovanni Pierluigi da Palestrina

94. Die Meistersinger - Richard Wagner

95. Symphony No. 39 in E flat major - Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart

96. The Creation - Franz Joseph Haydn

97. Sleeping Beauty - Peter Ilitch Tchaikovsky

98. Symphony No. 7 in E major - Anton Bruckner

99. Romeo and Juliet - Peter Ilitch Tchaikovsky

100. Concerto for Orchestra - Béla Bartók

101. German Requiem - Johannes Brahms

102. Symphony No. 4 in F minor - Peter Ilitch Tchaikovsky

103. Symphony No. 1 in C minor - Johannes Brahms

104. Piano Quintet in F minor - Johannes Brahms

105. Serenade No. 13 in G major "Eine Kleine Nachtmusik" - Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart

106. String Quartet No. 12 in F major "American" - Antonin Dvorák

107. String Quartet No. 19 in C major "Dissonance" - Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart

108. Clarinet Concerto in A major - Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart

109. Violin Concerto in D major - Peter Ilitch Tchaikovsky

110. Concerto for 2 Violins in D minor - Johann Sebastian Bach

111. Symphony No. 9 in D minor - Gustav Mahler

112. Brandenburg Concerto No. 2 in F major - Johann Sebastian Bach

113. Brandenburg Concerto No. 5 in D major - Johann Sebastian Bach

114. Firebird Suite - Igor Stravinsky

115. Toccata and Fugue in D minor - Johann Sebastian Bach

116. Symphony No. 4 in E flat major "Romantic" - Anton Bruckner

117. Piano Concerto No. 23 in A major - Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart

118. Vespro della Beata Vergine (Vespers of 1610) - Claudio Monteverdi

119. Symphony No. 4 in A major "Italian" - Felix Mendelssohn

120. Piano Trio No. 7 in B flat major, Op. 97 "Archduke" - Ludwig van Beethoven

121. Requiem Grande Messe des Morts - Hector Berlioz

122. War Requiem - Benjamin Britten

123. Tosca - Giacomo Puccini

124. Falstaff - Giuseppe Verdi

125. Die Schone Mullerin - Franz Schubert

126. Carmina Burana - Carl Orff

127. String Quartet No. 2 in D major "Nocturne" - Alexander Borodin

128. Rigoletto - Giuseppe Verdi

129. Glagolitic Mass - Leos Janácek

130. The Barber of Seville - Gioacchino Rossini

131. Rhapsody in Blue - George Gershwin

132. Cello Concerto in E minor - Edward Elgar

133. Sinfonia Concertante in E flat major - Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart

134. Symphony No. 38 in D major "Prague" - Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart

135. Cantata No. 140, Wachet Auf - Johann Sebastian Bach

136. Octet for Strings in E flat major - Felix Mendelssohn

137. String Quartet in C major, Op. 76 No. 3 "Emperor" - Joseph Haydn

138. Fantasia on a Theme by Thomas Tallis - Ralph Vaughan Williams

139. Violin Sonata in A major - César Franck

140. Symphony No. 3 in C minor "Organ" - Camille Saint-Saëns

141. Missa Pange Lingua - Josquin des Prez

142. Dichterliebe - Robert Schumann

143. Symphony No. 94 in G major "Surprise" - Franz Joseph Haydn

144. Symphony No. 101 in D major "The Clock" - Franz Joseph Haydn

145. Les Preludes - Franz Liszt

146. Symphony No. 5 in B flat major - Serge Prokofiev

147. Piano Sonata No. 21 in C major "Waldstein" - Ludwig Van Beethoven

148. Cavalleria Rusticana - Pietro Mascagni

149. Piano Concerto No. 3 in D minor - Sergei Rachmaninoff

150. Piano Concerto No. 3 in C major - Sergei Prokofiev

151. Piano Quintet in E flat major - Robert Schumann

152. Enigma Variations - Edward Elgar

153. Das Leid von der Erde - Gustav Mahler

154. Fantasy in C major "Wanderer" - Franz Schubert

155. Symphony No. 104 in D major "London" - Franz Joseph Haydn

156. Piano Concerto No. 1 in E flat major - Franz Liszt

157. Rhapsody on a Theme by Paganini - Sergei Rachmaninoff

158. The Art of the Fugue - Johann Sebastian Bach

159. Symphony No. 5 in E minor - Peter Ilitch Tchaikovsky

160. Daphnis et Chloe - Maurice Ravel

161. Trumpet Concerto in E flat major - Franz Joseph Haydn

162. Il Trovatore - Giuseppe Verdi

163. Ballade No. 1 in G minor - Frederic Chopin

164. Night on Bald Mountain - Modest Mussorgsky

165. Carnaval - Robert Schumann

166. Piano Sonata No. 29 in B flat major "Hammerklavier" - Ludwig Van Beethoven

167. Piano Quartet No. 1 in G minor, Op. 25 - Johannes Brahms

168. Adagio for Strings - Samuel Barber

169. Violin Concerto in D minor - Jean Sibelius

170. Turandot - Giacomo Puccini

171. Belshazzar's Feast - William Walton

172. Symphony No. 9 in D minor - Anton Bruckner

173. Faust - Charles Gounod

174. Symphony of Psalms - Igor Stravinsky

175. Lohengrin - Richard Wagner

176. Symphony No. 5 in E-flat major - Jean Sibelius

177. Mathis der Maler - Paul Hindemith

178. Piano Sonata No. 2 in B flat minor - Frederic Chopin

179. Sinfonietta - Leos Janácek

180. Violin Concerto No. 1 in G minor - Max Bruch

181. Peer Gynt Suite No. 1 - Edvard Grieg

182. Symphony No. 1 in D major - Serge Prokofiev

183. Symphony No. 8 in C minor - Anton Bruckner

184. The Royal Fireworks Music - George Frideric Handel

185. Violin Concerto No. 2 in B minor - Béla Bartók

186. Rapsodie Espagnole - Maurice Ravel

187. Piano Trio No. 1 in B flat major - Franz Schubert

188. The Planets - Gustav Holst

189. String Quartet No. 4 in C major - Béla Bartók

190. Romeo and Juliet - Serge Prokofiev

191. Canon - Johann Pachelbel

192. The Blue Danube - Johann Strauss II

193. Four Coronation Anthems - George Frideric Handel

194. String Quartet No. 8 in C minor, Op. 110 - Dmitri Shostakovitch

195. Verklärte Nacht - Arnold Schoenberg

196. 24 Caprices - Niccolo Paganini

197. Pelléas et Mélisande - Claude Debussy

198. Trois Gymnopédies - Erik Satie

199. Symphony No. 2 in G major "London" - Ralph Vaughan Williams

200. Three Places in New England - Charles Ives


----------



## Ravndal (Jun 8, 2012)

Nah. Then id rather live with the classicalFM list, to be honest 

But good job on making a top list with 200 pieces. Must have taken forever.


----------



## Crudblud (Dec 29, 2011)

MacLeod said:


> and, while we're giving serious consideration to necessities, to posts that make wild assertions that don't stand up to scrutiny.


The herd of flying pigs should be by any minute now.


----------



## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

Ravndal said:


> Nah. Then id rather live with the classicalFM list, to be honest
> 
> But good job on making a top list with 200 pieces. Must have taken forever.


Looks like he just copied/pasted from here.


----------



## violadude (May 2, 2011)

I can't tell if I'm annoyed more by the video game music or the Karl Jenkins. Jenkin's music just has such that nauseating "pops classical" quality to it that I think I would actually rather be listening to video game music.


----------



## Op.123 (Mar 25, 2013)

Ravndal said:


> Nah. Then id rather live with the classicalFM list, to be honest
> 
> But good job on making a top list with 200 pieces. Must have taken forever.


I didn't, I just took it from a website.


----------



## Op.123 (Mar 25, 2013)

Art Rock said:


> Looks like he just copied/pasted from here.


Yes..............


----------



## Feathers (Feb 18, 2013)

Ah, that's why it looked so familiar.


----------



## Op.123 (Mar 25, 2013)

Have a look at the classic FM ultimate hall of fame, it is not as bad.


----------



## Crudblud (Dec 29, 2011)

Burroughs said:


> Have a look at the classic FM ultimate hall of fame, it is not as bad.


Gross misuse of the word "ultimate," I'm sure we can all agree, is far more egregious an offence than the inclusion of video game music in a list of classical music.


----------

