# Can someone really into the importance of opera conductors advise me?



## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

I seek guidance on some possible contests. Could we compare the Furtwangler conducting with Bohm's in just an aria? I don't know these things but the right contest could help people like me become more aware.


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## BBSVK (10 mo ago)

Not exactly this, but I was thinking of making a contest on pezzo concertato from Il Viaggio a Reims. The conductor probably plays a big role in such things. I am better on promisses and planning than delivery (see the contest on Sombre foret which did not happen so far), so do not believe me too much. 

Best wishes for your search for the conducting experts. I usually notice conducting only when it ruins the opera, for instance speeding on Bellini. I probably couldn't distinguish between good and great.


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## composingmusic (Dec 16, 2021)

I can speak on the importance of conductors, but don't have much to say about contests. One thing where differences in conducting styles really become clear is in a rehearsal context. I was associated with a local orchestra for a few years through one of their young composer schemes, and during that time I went to a large number of rehearsals. 

In a rehearsal setting, one of the most important things is how the time is managed. I haven't been to that many opera rehearsals, although I've been to a few – and the same is certainly true there. There's also the huge question of how the conductor is communicating with both the instrumentalists and singers, and how flexible they are in being able to support what the singers are doing. That's only a part of it, of course, but it's an important part of it.


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## BBSVK (10 mo ago)

composingmusic said:


> I can speak on the importance of conductors, but don't have much to say about contests. One thing where differences in conducting styles really become clear is in a rehearsal context. I was associated with a local orchestra for a few years through one of their young composer schemes, and during that time I went to a large number of rehearsals.
> 
> In a rehearsal setting, one of the most important things is how the time is managed. I haven't been to that many opera rehearsals, although I've been to a few – and the same is certainly true there. There's also the huge question of how the conductor is communicating with both the instrumentalists and singers, and how flexible they are in being able to support what the singers are doing. That's only a part of it, of course, but it's an important part of it.


 If a chorus falls apart in an opera, is it about the conductor, or the chorus master ?


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## BBSVK (10 mo ago)

Also, in bel canto, sometimes the score says "a voce". The conductor should follow the singer. At another forum, people wrote, that Levine was very good and sensitive at this. But, at the same time, the task possibly bothered him, because at MET he conducted less bel canto performances together than Berg alone.


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## composingmusic (Dec 16, 2021)

BBSVK said:


> If a chorus falls apart in an opera, is it about the conductor, or the chorus master ?


Again, this is from more of an orchestra experience than opera experience, but I’d say it depends on the type of problem. There’s a number of reasons why a chorus might be having issues. For instance, if the cue is unclear and that’s why the chorus couldn’t come in, that would be on the conductor. If it’s say, a diction issue, that would be on the chorus master. 

From what I’ve seen in rehearsals, the chorus master is typically there in rehearsals, and they will go talk with the conductor and/or section leaders when issues come up, as needed.


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## Shaughnessy (Dec 31, 2020)

Seattleoperafan said:


> *I seek guidance on some possible contests.* *Could we compare the Furtwangler conducting with Bohm's in just an aria?* I don't know these things but the right contest could help people like me become more aware.


Look through your contests - Count the number of times that someone wrote - "I couldn't decide on which performance to go with so I used conducting as the tie-breaker".

It has been mentioned as a factor but I don't recall anyone deciding to choose a poor vocal with first-rate conducting over a good, great, or even fair to middling vocal with mediocre conducting.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

BBSVK said:


> If a chorus falls apart in an opera, is it about the conductor, or the chorus master ?


What do you think?


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## BBSVK (10 mo ago)

I have heard some unpleasant versions of "Norma vienne". That's why I am asking, if it is about the chorus master or the conductor.


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## BBSVK (10 mo ago)

hammeredklavier said:


> What do you think?


I did not get it...


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## Shaughnessy (Dec 31, 2020)

Seattleoperafan said:


> I seek guidance on some possible contests. Could we compare the *Furtwangler* conducting with Bohm's in just an aria? I don't know these things but the right contest could help people like me become more aware.


He should be referred to as "He who must not be named" - Otherwise, it serves as kind of a magical incantation which will summon forth not just run-of-the-mill garden- variety demons who, oddly enough, can be kind of entertaining as long as you don't needlessly antagonize them, but the kind of people that we spend all of our time avoiding - You know, the ones who keep arguing long past the time anyone cares - which is like 10 maybe 15 minutes tops - but will continue for days, if not weeks, sometimes even months, even when no one is actually here - They will argue with themselves as eagerly as they will with an actual opponent - They don't know we're here - We would like to keep it that way - So cool it, John... Go plant something... or go take a walk... anything... Jaysus...


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Shaughnessy said:


> Look through your contests - Count the number of times that someone wrote - "I couldn't decide on which performance to go with so I used conducting as the tie-breaker".
> 
> It has been mentioned as a factor but I don't recall anyone deciding to choose a poor vocal with first-rate conducting over a good, great, or even fair to middling vocal with mediocre conducting.


That is astute. I am not myself tuned into conducting unless it is too slow. It is just not on my radar but so many people here want say a Ring specifically by a certain conductor and I look for the singers. I try to branch out.


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## BBSVK (10 mo ago)

Seattleoperafan said:


> That is astute. I am not myself tuned into conducting unless it is too slow. It is just not on my radar but so many people here want say a Ring specifically by a certain conductor and I look for the singers. I try to branch out.


I don't know the Ring, but do the choruses play an important role in those operas ? And how about purely instrumental passages ?


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## pianozach (May 21, 2018)

I too don't know much about contests, but have a bunch to say about the importance of conducting.

Here's a story.

I was in a large orchestra for a regional production of Leonard Bernstein's West Side Story. "Large" in the sense that it was a full orchestra without strings and guitar (which was what I was attempting to cover on keyboard).

If you've ever attempted to play the score on piano, or played in the orchestra, you'll find that it's a rather difficult score, and Bernstein managed to arrange things so that every player had an opportunity to doubt whether they were playing their part correctly - it's full of echo parts, and there are plenty of sections where different instruments will be playing in parallel minor 2nds.

Well, the orchestra couldn't manage to keep it together; we always sounded sloppy and muddy and amateurish. At the beginning of the Wednesday night dress rehearsal before the Friday night opening the Musical Director informed us that our conductor had been "let go". The conductor was well liked, but not really the best of conductors. The MD conducted, first by standing stoically at the podium, stared us all down, and gave the first down beat.

Our previously ragtag orchestra suddenly sounded like a first-rate Philharmonic. It continued that way throughout the rehearsal. It was almost as though a professional orchestra had been brought in. THIS guy KNEW the music, and was a precise and readable conductor.


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## Op.123 (Mar 25, 2013)

Singing and conducting go hand-in-hand really and you can't really conduct a great performance without good singers. Though there are certainly some great vocal performances without the best conducting. That said, usually one inspires the other. Some excellently conducted performances -

Gui - Il Trovatore - 1938
Bodanzky - Tristan und Isolde - 1938
Panizza - Otello - 1938
Panizza - La Gioconda - 1939
Walter - Fidelio - 1941
Busch - Le Nozze di Figaro - 1949
Mitropoulos - La Forza del Destino - 1953
De Sabata - Tosca - 1953


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## Monsalvat (11 mo ago)

BBSVK said:


> I don't know the Ring, but do the choruses play an important role in those operas ? And how about purely instrumental passages ?


The only _Ring_ opera with a chorus is _Götterdämmerung_, and even then only in the last two acts. They really only get one big passage, which is the scene where Hagen summons them to get ready for the wedding (Hoiho! Hoihohoho! in Act II) leading into the "Heil dir, Gunther" wedding march. 

The instrumental passages are far more numerous and important. These include preludes at the start of acts, and interludes in the middle of acts such as the funeral march or the "Siegfried's Rhine Journey" passage. But more to the point, the orchestra is _constantly_ in the middle of the action, fully as important as the voices, and this means the conductor must be focused on both the stage and the pit simultaneously.

Wilhelm Pitz was the chorus master at Bayreuth after the war and he was really fine at his job. But the chorus is more important in _Meistersinger_ and it doesn't feature as heavily in _Götterdämmerung_. I'll put it this way: you can find albums of Verdi choruses (I know Solti recorded one such album) but I've never seen an album of Wagner choruses!


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## Shaughnessy (Dec 31, 2020)

Seattleoperafan said:


> That is astute. I am not myself tuned into conducting unless it is too slow. It is just not on my radar but so many people here want say a Ring specifically by a certain conductor and I look for the singers. I try to branch out.


You can stash these in the warehouse for future use - All are complete and label authorized recordings - The Solti is a compendium of several different orchestras but it's at least a start - 












Link to contents page - 



https://www.prestomusic.com/classical/products/8019661--wagner-the-operas



Link to label authorized complete recording - 414 selections - 



https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_miH6g9_DLk4PInCI_ByEuVgVNCvpwpNDg














Link to contents page - 









Wagner: Der Ring des Nibelungen


Wagner: Der Ring des Nibelungen. DG: 4796355. Buy download online. Dietrich Fischer-Dieskau (Wotan), Josephine Veasey (Fricka), Gerhard Stolze (Loge), Erwin Wohlfahrt (Mime), Zoltán Kéléman (Alberich), Simone Mangelsdorff (Freia), Donald Grobe (Froh), Robert Kerns (Donner), Oralia Domínguez...



www.prestomusic.com





Link to label authorized complete recording - 189 selections - 



https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_nmJnxt5OabOjwvqo0EfHHG95OOQw2xsOo













Link to contents page - 









Wagner: Der Ring des Nibelungen


Wagner: Der Ring des Nibelungen. Decca: 4782367. Buy download online. Das Rheingold Theo Adam (Wotan), Gerd Nienstedt (Donner), Hermin Esser (Froh), Wolfgang Windgassen (Loge), Gustav Neidlinger (Alberich), Erwin Wohlfahrt (Mime), Martti Talvela (Fasolt) Kurt Böhme (Fafner), Annelies Burmeister...



www.prestomusic.com





Link to label authorized complete recording - 168 selections - 



https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLxXjllvtBC_qbc2QzvNu_O20PncLxo9B_


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## Shaughnessy (Dec 31, 2020)

Link to contents page -









Wagner Complete Operas - Vol. 1


Wagner Complete Operas - Vol. 1. DG: 4790922. Buy download online. Raimund Herincx (Friedrich), Alexander Young (Luzio), Ian Caley (Claudio), Neil Jenkins (Antonio), William Elvin (Angelo), April Cantelo (Isabella), Ilse Wolf (Mariana), Lawrence Richard (Brighella), Leslie Fyson (Danieli)...



www.prestomusic.com





Link to label authorized complete recording - 212 selections -





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www.youtube.com
















Link to contents page -









Wagner Complete Operas - Vol. 2


Wagner Complete Operas - Vol. 2. DG: 4790923. Buy download online. Das Rheingold: James Morris (Wotan), Ekkehard Wlaschiha (Alberich), Christa Ludwig (Fricka), Siegfried Jerusalem (Loge), Heinz Zednik (Mime), Kurt Moll (Fasolt), Jan-Hendrik Rootering (Fafner), Mark Baker (Froh), MarieAnne...



www.prestomusic.com





Link to label authorized complete recording - 260 selections -





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www.youtube.com


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## BBSVK (10 mo ago)

Monsalvat said:


> The only _Ring_ opera with a chorus is _Götterdämmerung_, and even then only in the last two acts. They really only get one big passage, which is the scene where Hagen summons them to get ready for the wedding (Hoiho! Hoihohoho! in Act II) leading into the "Heil dir, Gunther" wedding march.
> 
> The instrumental passages are far more numerous and important. These include preludes at the start of acts, and interludes in the middle of acts such as the funeral march or the "Siegfried's Rhine Journey" passage. But more to the point, the orchestra is _constantly_ in the middle of the action, fully as important as the voices, and this means the conductor must be focused on both the stage and the pit simultaneously.
> 
> Wilhelm Pitz was the chorus master at Bayreuth after the war and he was really fine at his job. But the chorus is more important in _Meistersinger_ and it doesn't feature as heavily in _Götterdämmerung_. I'll put it this way: you can find albums of Verdi choruses (I know Solti recorded one such album) but I've never seen an album of Wagner choruses!


I have a vinyl with Wagner choruses, but those are from Tannhauser, Lohengrin and Meistersinger.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

In vocal selections brief enough for these contests, the conducting is rarely important enough to change our evaluation of the performance. When we're judging recordings from the acoustic era it's generally absurd to think about it at all in single arias, except to make allowances for some excessively fast tempos. 

There is some music in operas in which the conductor takes center stage - preludes, interludes, entr'actes - and some of these may be short enough to use. I would be open to some contests featuring these.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Monsalvat said:


> Wilhelm Pitz was the chorus master at Bayreuth after the war and he was really fine at his job. But the chorus is more important in _Meistersinger_ and it doesn't feature as heavily in _Götterdämmerung_ I'll put it this way: you can find albums of Verdi choruses (I know Solti recorded one such album) but I've never seen an album of Wagner choruses!


Wagner's works are well-supplied with some of the most wonderful choral music in opera. Not all of it is easy to excerpt, but I know there have been some collections on disc. There are the choruses of sailors and the spinning chorus in _Dutchman_, the pilgrim's chorus and the entrance of the guests at the Wartburg in _Tannhauser_, superb choral passages in all three acts of _Lohengrin_, the choral contributions in _Meistersinger_ and _Gotterdammerung_ which you've mentioned, and nearly the whole of the temple scene, the flower maidens, Titurel's funeral procession and the final scene of _Parsifal. _In what other composer's operatic oeuvre do we find such a variety of great music for chorus?


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## Monsalvat (11 mo ago)

Woodduck said:


> Wagner's works are well-supplied with some of the most wonderful choral music in opera. Not all of it is easy to excerpt, but I know there have been some collections on disc. There are the choruses of sailors and the spinning chorus in _Dutchman_, the pilgrim's chorus and the entrance of the guests at the Wartburg in _Tannhauser_, superb choral passages in all three acts of _Lohengrin_, the choral contributions in _Meistersinger_ and _Gotterdammerung_ which you've mentioned, and nearly the whole of the temple scene, the flower maidens, Titurel's funeral procession and the final scene of _Parsifal. _In what other composer's operatic oeuvre do we find such a variety of great music for chorus?


Verdi! I would expect Verdi to dominate most people's lists of favorite opera choruses. Perhaps it isn't fair for me to compare their music in my mind this way. I'm far less interested in (and consequently less familiar with) _Tannhäuser_, _Lohengrin_, and _Holländer_ than the other seven operas in the Bayreuth Ten, I fully concede, which biased my answer for sure. You're absolutely right here though, and _Lohengrin_ alone would make a good demonstration of Wagner's choral ability. Still, it wouldn't be terribly difficult to come up with a list of great Verdi choruses rivaling the list you've presented. Neither of us mentioned _Tristan_ but there is a chorus there, too; but it is not a huge part of the opera (only parts of Act I). 

Good point that a lot of the choral music in Wagner isn't easy to remove from the context of the opera and put on a CD. The bleeding chunks that most commonly make it onto disc are orchestral; that's usually as far as the dismemberment goes!


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Woodduck said:


> In vocal selections brief enough for these contests, the conducting is rarely important enough to change our evaluation of the performance. When we're judging recordings from the acoustic era it's generally absurd to think about it at all in single arias, except to make allowances for some excessively fast tempos.
> 
> There is some music in operas in which the conductor takes center stage - preludes, interludes, entr'actes - and some of these may be short enough to use. I would be open to some contests featuring these.


That is what I wanted to hear. I try to keep these interesting and stretch myself if needs be. That makes sense. Thanks!!!!


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Monsalvat said:


> Verdi! I would expect Verdi to dominate most people's lists of favorite opera choruses. Perhaps it isn't fair for me to compare their music in my mind this way. I'm far less interested in (and consequently less familiar with) _Tannhäuser_, _Lohengrin_, and _Holländer_ than the other seven operas in the Bayreuth Ten, I fully concede, which biased my answer for sure. You're absolutely right here though, and _Lohengrin_ alone would make a good demonstration of Wagner's choral ability. Still, it wouldn't be terribly difficult to come up with a list of great Verdi choruses rivaling the list you've presented. Neither of us mentioned _Tristan_ but there is a chorus there, too; but it is not a huge part of the opera (only parts of Act I).
> 
> Good point that a lot of the choral music in Wagner isn't easy to remove from the context of the opera and put on a CD. The bleeding chunks that most commonly make it onto disc are orchestral; that's usually as far as the dismemberment goes!


I think someone should start a thread on favorite opera choruses. I am not knowledgeable enough to do it.


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## ewilkros (8 mo ago)

Seattleoperafan said:


> I seek guidance on some possible contests. Could we compare the Furtwangler conducting with Bohm's in just an aria? I don't know these things but the right contest could help people like me become more aware.


I suggest Callas with and without Rescigno--there was a reason she sang so much in Chicago and Dallas. 

Plus there's a rehearsal tape with them.


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## ColdGenius (9 mo ago)

Woodduck said:


> Wagner's works are well-supplied with some of the most wonderful choral music in opera. Not all of it is easy to excerpt, but I know there have been some collections on disc. There are the choruses of sailors and the spinning chorus in _Dutchman_, the pilgrim's chorus and the entrance of the guests at the Wartburg in _Tannhauser_, superb choral passages in all three acts of _Lohengrin_, the choral contributions in _Meistersinger_ and _Gotterdammerung_ which you've mentioned, and nearly the whole of the temple scene, the flower maidens, Titurel's funeral procession and the final scene of _Parsifal. _In what other composer's operatic oeuvre do we find such a variety of great music for chorus?


Russian opera contains many chorus scenes. They are as important as every solo part. 
For examle, Glinka's The life for the Tzar, Mussorgsky's Khovanschina and Boris Godunov, almost all the Rimsky-Korsakov's operas and, of course, Borodin's Prince Igor. 
Berlioz was a master of choruses, with a great variety for a modest quantity of operas. 
Verdi was mentioned already.


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## BBSVK (10 mo ago)

ewilkros said:


> I suggest Callas with and without Rescigno--there was a reason she sang so much in Chicago and Dallas.
> 
> Plus there's a rehearsal tape with them.


This would interest me more. The purely orchestral parts I perceive as something, that is not really a part of the action in opera. It is more like allowing people to settle or give time to change the props. The ouvertures, intermezzos, music for the ballet in opera - it is all nice, but also something people in non-opera forums would evaluate.


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## ColdGenius (9 mo ago)

About the headline. 
I'm not a specialist, mostly don't know terms. But going to Mariinsky often enough I feel the difference when Gergiev works. Many find him peculiar band uneven, he is also unpredictable (well, when he is late to the beginning or hisses to the orchestra, it's just predictable) and doesn't like rehearsals. But at his presence the orchestra is always more assembled and solid.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)




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## superhorn (Mar 23, 2010)

A first rate conductor is absolutely essential in opera . Without a skillful , well trained and experienced conductor , the best cast of singers in the world is pretty much useless . But with an outstanding conductor , he or she can make a performance work and. be coherent and exciting even with a somewhat less than ideal cast .


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

Woodduck said:


> Wagner's works are well-supplied with some of the most wonderful choral music in opera. Not all of it is easy to excerpt, but I know there have been some collections on disc. There are the choruses of sailors and the spinning chorus in _Dutchman_, the pilgrim's chorus and the entrance of the guests at the Wartburg in _Tannhauser_, superb choral passages in all three acts of _Lohengrin_, the choral contributions in _Meistersinger_ and _Gotterdammerung_ which you've mentioned, and nearly the whole of the temple scene, the flower maidens, Titurel's funeral procession and the final scene of _Parsifal. _In what other composer's operatic oeuvre do we find such a variety of great music for chorus?


I also found this striking - 1:11:23


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