# Bach for beginners



## eyeman (Oct 3, 2013)

After listening to Vivaldi almost exclusively for about 3 months now, I've decided it's time to branch out. As a complete novice to classical music I need advice. I'm not tired of Vivaldi yet...in fact I can't get enough but yet I want to have some other choices. After sampling music by other composers I've come to the conclusion that the Baroque sound is what I like best and since Bach's name keeps coming up, he's my next step. I would like suggestions on everybody's favorite pieces as well as who performed them. THX!


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

the double violin concerto, and especially the second movement





but in general if you were listening to Vivaldi I think that his concertos are a perfect introduction.


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## DaDirkNL (Aug 26, 2013)

Listen to his Brandenburg Concertos, they are divine.


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## Guest (Oct 24, 2013)

Brandenburg Concertos - Jordi Savall/Le Concert des Nations
Goldberg Variations - Murray Perahia
Orchestral Suites - Jordi Savall/Le Concert des Nations
Violin Concertos - Julia Fischer/Academy of St. Martin-in-the-Fields
Mass in B Minor - Masaaki Suzuki/Bach Collegium Japan
Famous Organ Works - Helmut Walcha
Keyboard Concertos - Murray Perahia/Academy of St. Martin-in-the-Fields

If you find you like the Mass, try some of his other choral works:
Motets - Masaaki Suzuki/Bach Collegium Japan
St. Matthew Passion - same
St. John Passion - same


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## GreenMamba (Oct 14, 2012)

Brandenburgs are a good choice. 

Beyond that, a lot probably depends on whether you like the sound of an organ, harpsichord, or chorus. If you don't think so, I'd encourage you to stick with it. Still, it does seem like some people struggle to get into certain instruments at first.


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## Guest (Oct 24, 2013)

Pretty much what DrMike said, even if I listen to Pinnock for the concertos and suites and Karl Richter for the organ works.


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## Guest (Oct 24, 2013)

Oh and don't forget Andras Schiff's most recent recording of the Well-Tempered Clavier  Book I is perfect for Bach beginners!


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

I'd recommend Gould's 1955 Goldbergs. Plus Brandenbergs concerto no 2 by whoever.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

eyeman said:


> After listening to Vivaldi almost exclusively for about 3 months now, I've decided it's time to branch out. As a complete novice to classical music I need advice. I'm not tired of Vivaldi yet...in fact I can't get enough but yet I want to have some other choices. After sampling music by other composers I've come to the conclusion that the Baroque sound is what I like best and since Bach's name keeps coming up, he's my next step. I would like suggestions on everybody's favorite pieces as well as who performed them. THX!


B minor mass, Leonhardt
Art of Fugue, Walcha
Brandenburg Concertos, Kuijken second recording


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## Guest (Oct 24, 2013)

Mandryka said:


> B minor mass, Leonhardt
> Art of Fugue, Walcha
> Brandenburg Concertos, Kuijken second recording


I would be hesitant to recommend Art of Fugue to someone just learning Bach. It is more of an academic work than some of the other recommendations. While many who come to enjoy Bach enjoy that work, it might seem rather dense and unapproachable than some of the other works.


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## brotagonist (Jul 11, 2013)

I prefer Bach, by a long shot, and Handel, over Vivaldi. You're in for a treat!

Bach's _Brandenburg_ and _Goldberg Concertos_ are divine, but no less so are:

_Sonatas and Partitas_ for solo violin
_6 Suites_ for solo cello 
_French Suites_
_4 Orchestral Suites_
_Violin Sonatas_
Works for lute
Concertos for 1, 2, 3 and 4 harpsichords
Organ works


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

[


DrMike said:


> I would be hesitant to recommend Art of Fugue to someone just learning Bach. It is more of an academic work than some of the other recommendations. While many who come to enjoy Bach enjoy that work, it might seem rather dense and unapproachable than some of the other works.


I think you are wrong, though there are academic performances. Walcha's is not academic. Nor is it dense or inapproachable. Have you heard it?

More generally, I was keen to recommend a solo instrumental piece which comes from Bach's greatest music. Other good instrumental recommendations may be Clavier Ubung 3, or even orgelbuchlein, which I'm particularly fond of.


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

Mandryka said:


> [
> 
> I think you are wrong, though there are academic performances. Walcha's is not academic. Nor is it dense or inapproachable. Have you heard it?


I don't think he's referring to Walcha's recording, but to the Art of the fugue itself. I can't think of a more abstract and cerebral music work before the twentieth century.


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## Vaneyes (May 11, 2010)

eyeman, you'll be pleased to know that JS Bach borrowed from his contemporary Vivaldi on occasion, thinking that highly of him.

Suggested JS Bach recs: All Glenn Gould; Keyboard Cti. w. Casadesus family; Violin Cti. w. Hope; Orch. Suites w. Pinnock; Brandenburg Cti. w. OAE; The Art of Fugue, w. ESQ, w. Aimard; Sonatas for Viola da gamba, w. Quintana & Frisch; Cello Suites, w. Schiff; Six Sonatas & Partitas for Solo Violin, w. Ehnes. :tiphat:


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

norman bates said:


> *I don't think he's referring to Walcha's recording, but to the Art of the fugue itself.* I can't think of a more abstract and cerebral music work before the twentieth century.


I don't know if I understand the bit in bold. Anyway I think that in a good performance each of the cpt is full of feeling. There are some overly abstract and didactic performances of course, maybe you've not heard the ones which value the emotional content. There are many - Walcha, Petermandl, Leonhardt on Harmonia Mundi, the new one from Davitt Moroney, Gerd Zacher, Jens Christensen, Ken Gilbert, Rübsam on Naxos, Sergio Vartolo, Kei Koito, Jaroslav Tuma, Gerhard Weinberger . . . I mentioned Walcha in my first post here because it's such a landmark in the performance history of the piece, in addition to being outstanding in every way.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

More generally, since the OP says he likes the baroque sound, I think he should avoid all the modern piano recordings mentioned here.


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## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

norman bates said:


> I don't think he's referring to Walcha's recording, but to the Art of the fugue itself. I can't think of a more abstract and cerebral music work before the twentieth century.


I'd consider the obscure workings of isorhythm to be extremely "abstract", as far as I understand what people mean by that term. I really don't understand what it means, though. Isn't all music without programmatic/pictoral significance equally abstract?


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## GreenMamba (Oct 14, 2012)

If I had to recommend an Art of Fugue to a beginner, I might go with a multi-instrument version, perhaps even full orchestra. Or Canadian Brass.


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## Winterreisender (Jul 13, 2013)

I might also suggest the "Italian Concerto" if you want a very lively introduction to his keyboard music (ideally played on harpsichord!)


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## Vaneyes (May 11, 2010)

Mandryka said:


> More generally, since the OP says he likes the baroque sound, I think he should avoid all the modern piano recordings mentioned here.


That's not general. That's a specific leap of logic. :lol:


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

GreenMamba said:


> If I had to recommend an Art of Fugue to a beginner, I might go with a multi-instrument version, perhaps even full orchestra. Or Canadian Brass.


Why?

................


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

Mahlerian said:


> I'd consider the obscure workings of isorhythm to be extremely "abstract", as far as I understand what people mean by that term. I really don't understand what it means, though. Isn't all music without programmatic/pictoral significance equally abstract?


Sure, all music is abstract, but the art of the fugue is practically just counterpoint. No dynamics, no great melodies. It's not difficult to me to understand why there are critics who compare it with the art of Mondrian (and after all, even the figurative art is abstract, the figures we see are just paint on a surface).


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

GreenMamba said:


> If I had to recommend an Art of Fugue to a beginner, I might go with a multi-instrument version, perhaps even full orchestra. Or Canadian Brass.


I agree, something like that is maybe more approachable than the austerity of a Walcha


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## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

norman bates said:


> Sure, all music is abstract, but the art of the fugue is practically just counterpoint. No dynamics, no great melodies.


What is counterpoint if not multiple melodies played together? I agree that Art of Fugue projects a certain severity, but that's more the chromaticism and the fact that the whole thing (which was not necessarily meant to be listened through) is based on a single "subject", which can lead to a certain sameness.


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## Guest (Oct 24, 2013)

Don't misunderstand me - I love the Art of Fugue, and yes, I have heard Walcha's recording. I have listened to numerous recordings, and my current favorite is the performance by Jordi Savall with Hesperion XX. That being said, I didn't say not to listen to it, only that, just coming from Vivaldi, Bach's Art of Fugue might be a bit dense, and not the first thing I would recommend to someone just getting into Bach. If they find they really enjoy Bach, then I would definitely recommend it as a key work from him.

As to only going with harpsichord, I would say only if you can stomach solo harpsichord. I love the harpsichord in an ensemble, but my ears tire quickly of listening to solo harpsichord performances. Murray Perahia's recording of the Goldberg Variations is incredible, and I don't think that someone wanting to explore Bach is missing out on anything by not listening to that incredible work on a harpsichord. I wouldn't caution anybody against a harpsichord recording - I have a couple myself. But I went through my HIP-zealot phase, and have come through with an appreciation for both HIP, non-HIP, and everything in between.


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## Guest (Oct 24, 2013)

GreenMamba said:


> If I had to recommend an Art of Fugue to a beginner, I might go with a multi-instrument version, perhaps even full orchestra. Or Canadian Brass.


Or Jordi Savall with Hesperion XX. Or the New Century Saxophone Quartet - a quartet of saxophones actually does a wonderful job with this work.

Or just have numerous recordings - Walcha for organ, NCSQ for something different, Savall for a wonderful small ensemble HIP recording, and then choose your favorite for a harpsichord/clavichord/piano recording.


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## Guest (Oct 24, 2013)

Mandryka said:


> More generally, since the OP says he likes the baroque sound, I think he should avoid all the modern piano recordings mentioned here.


I am assuming they mean works from the baroque era. They give no indication as to what recordings they have heard - it might have been Vivaldi's Four Seasons by Marriner - on modern instruments.

I would just steer them to some of the best recordings, regardless of whether they were performed on period or modern instruments.


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

Mahlerian said:


> *What is counterpoint if not multiple melodies played together? * I agree that Art of Fugue projects a certain severity, but that's more the chromaticism and the fact that the whole thing (which was not necessarily meant to be listened through) is based on a single "subject", which can lead to a certain sameness.


[/QUOTE]

Sure, that's obvious, but in fact I've said "great melodies". Do you find yourself whistling those single parts? I think that for instance the Goldberg variations are much more tuneful, if it's the correct word. In the Art of the fugue I don't think that Bach was trying to compose memorable melodies.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

DrMike said:


> Don't misunderstand me - I love the Art of Fugue, and yes, I have heard Walcha's recording. I have listened to numerous recordings, and my current favorite is the performance by Jordi Savall with Hesperion XX. That being said, I didn't say not to listen to it, only that, just coming from Vivaldi, Bach's Art of Fugue might be a bit dense, and not the first thing I would recommend to someone just getting into Bach. If they find they really enjoy Bach, then I would definitely recommend it as a key work from him.
> 
> As to only going with harpsichord, I would say only if you can stomach solo harpsichord. I love the harpsichord in an ensemble, but my ears tire quickly of listening to solo harpsichord performances. Murray Perahia's recording of the Goldberg Variations is incredible, *and I don't think that someone wanting to explore Bach is missing out on anything by not listening to that incredible work on a harpsichord*. I wouldn't caution anybody against a harpsichord recording - I have a couple myself. But I went through my HIP-zealot phase, and have come through with an appreciation for both HIP, non-HIP, and everything in between.


Oh I do. I think the modern piano transforms the music essentially, at least when played pianistically in the style of MP.

These past couple of days I've been listening to loads of modern piano records of the toccata from the 6th partita. You know, on a harpsichord there's a tough stylus phantasticus quality which comes naturally, and it's absent from nearly every modern piano record I found.

If you really must have a modern piano, well I suppose there's Rübsam on Naxos.

The OP says he likes baroque sound. Well unless you get into harpsichord, clavichord, organ and fortepiano, you not only will get a distorted view of J S Bach. You'll also get no real access to all the other important baroque composers. Buxtehude, Froberger, Sweelinck, Byrd, Pachelbel . . . How to appreciate baroque keyboard music if you don't develop a taste for harpsichord and organ?


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## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

norman bates said:


> Sure, that's obvious, but in fact I've said "great melodies". Do you find yourself whistling those single parts? I think that for instance *the Goldberg variations are much more tuneful, if it's the correct word.* In the Art of the fugue I don't think that Bach was trying to compose memorable melodies.


No, you're right, it's not melody-driven music, in the sense of having a single predominant voice. I just don't hear the fugal movements in Art of Fugue as any less melody-driven than, say, the canonic variations in the Goldbergs. Less than the aria and some of the character pieces, sure.

I still don't get how that makes it particularly "abstract" compared to other music of the era.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Mahlerian said:


> No, you're right, it's not melody-driven music, in the sense of having a single predominant voice. I just don't hear the fugal movements in Art of Fugue as any less melody-driven than, say, the canonic variations in the Goldbergs. Less than the aria and some of the character pieces, sure.
> 
> I still don't get how that makes it particularly "abstract" compared to other music of the era.


Isn't the idea connected to function and purpose. The idea that AoF is really about exploring fugal and canonic possibilities rather like a maths book is about exploring topologies, say. Like it's eye music.

IMO that idea reflects a very limited grasp of AoF.


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## shangoyal (Sep 22, 2013)

Now this thread is getting interesting, whether the Art of Fugue is abstract or not 

I think in general Bach's music has a very fine "knit".

But for the OP, it'll be interesting to actually watch some performances on youtube, it can really increase your enjoyment of the music sometimes.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

For a beginner on the Art of Fugue try Canadian Brass.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

DavidA said:


> For a beginner on the Art of Fugue try Canadian Brass.


Why?

I'm surprised noone's piped up about that thing, what is it now? Ah yes, Art of Fuging. 
..................


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## eyeman (Oct 3, 2013)

I'm new here and not sure if everyone will see my response but first of all, thanks to all for the replies. I guess I should add in response to some comments that I love harpsichords and organs. Not really too crazy about classical piano tho, and that's probably because of my 70's rock background. I saw so many artists literally tearing it up on keyboards...Keith Emerson (Emerson Lake n Palmer), Jon Lord (Deep Purple), Rick Wakeman (Yes), just to mention a few. I love violins, so much feeling comes thru, I mean they're so expressive! And I like the sound of a full orchestra...so I guess I'm looking for the energy of baroque sound full of melodies and hooks but maybe going in a little more complex orchestral direction.


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## Andolink (Oct 29, 2012)

Go to eclassical.com and download the flac files for vol. 39 of Masaaki Suzuki's Bach cantata cycle on the Bis label then sit back and listen on very good audio playback equipment. You will understand what all the buzz about J. S. Bach is about.


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## eyeman (Oct 3, 2013)

Thanks for the link...I listened and liked...got more?!


norman bates said:


> the double violin concerto, and especially the second movement
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## eyeman (Oct 3, 2013)

DrMike said:


> Brandenburg Concertos - Jordi Savall/Le Concert des Nations
> Goldberg Variations - Murray Perahia
> Orchestral Suites - Jordi Savall/Le Concert des Nations
> Violin Concertos - Julia Fischer/Academy of St. Martin-in-the-Fields
> ...


I like Le Concert des Nations...THX


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## GreenMamba (Oct 14, 2012)

Mandryka said:


> Why?
> 
> I'm surprised noone's piped up about that thing, what is it now? Ah yes, Art of Fuging.
> ..................


I think it's just that you get more variety of tone color in something other than one instrument (organ, piano or harpsichord). I like the solo instrument versions, but I'm guessing that a beginner might want more variety of sounds and textures. But I don't know; just a hunch.


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## eyeman (Oct 3, 2013)

GreenMamba said:


> I think it's just that you get more variety of tone color in something other than one instrument (organ, piano or harpsichord). I like the solo instrument versions, but I'm guessing that a beginner might want more variety of sounds and textures. But I don't know; just a hunch.


Your hunch is right...I want violins, harpsichords, plus...with nice melodies, hooks and subtle complexities!


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

If you want colour, then you should listen to organ. 


Just as a matter of fact, in AoF I've never been as impressed by ensemble recordings, they all end up a bit didactic for me, with theme entries underlined. The big exception for me was the one from Les Voix Humaines, which I found totally revealing and unspeakably wonderful in every way. Another which I found appealing is from the Lin Ensemble. I'm a sucker for clarinet.

Orchestral transcriptions are a different matter, and at the end of the day I've never been very satisfied by any I've heard. One ensemble recording which I thought was better than all the others I'd heard was the one with Erich Bergel and the Kluj Philharmonic. And the old one from Munchinger has a lot to recommend it, despite being a bit tidy, it is at least serious and noble.


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## Guest (Oct 25, 2013)

The problem with AoF, Mandryka, at least when it comes to your argument that you lose something when not hearing these works performed as originally intended, is that we don't know for what instrument AoF was intended? Organ? Harpsichord? Clavichord? Ensemble? We don't know. And yet we are able to enjoy this work in a variety of formats, without knowing exactly for which it was originally written.

But it is all academic. The OP has stated that he likes harpsichord, so I highly recommend he try some of the Master's keyboard works recorded on a harpsichord. For the Goldbergs, I recommend Pinnock, Gilbert, and Masaaki Suzuki. But I would still recommend Murray Perahia. Eyeman, I know you say you enjoy ensemble pieces, but I would still highly recommend you try the Goldberg Variations. They are one of Bach's greatest works. After that, the Brandenburg Concertos. You can't possibly go wrong with those, and they should hook you on Bach, if anything can.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

DrMike said:


> *The problem with AoF, Mandryka, at least when it comes to your argument that you lose something when not hearing these works performed as originally intended, is that we don't know for what instrument AoF was intended? Organ? Harpsichord? Clavichord? Ensemble? We don't know. And yet we are able to enjoy this work in a variety of formats, without knowing exactly for which it was originally written.*
> 
> But it is all academic. The OP has stated that he likes harpsichord, so I highly recommend he try some of the Master's keyboard works recorded on a harpsichord. For the Goldbergs, I recommend Pinnock, Gilbert, and Masaaki Suzuki. But I would still recommend Murray Perahia. Eyeman, I know you say you enjoy ensemble pieces, but I would still highly recommend you try the Goldberg Variations. They are one of Bach's greatest works. After that, the Brandenburg Concertos. You can't possibly go wrong with those, and they should hook you on Bach, if anything can.


One thing we do know for sure is that it wasn't written for a modern piano. Having said that there is one really fine piano records at least - Hans Petermandl. And Charles Rosen and Walter Riemer are also pretty excellent. My problem is with the modern piano played pianisticlly, romantically.

More specifically I think there are some pretty good arguments which suggest that Bach had two keyboards in mind, manualiters. But I'm not an expert and obviously a little knowledge is a dangerous thing.

One aspect which hasn't been mentioned in this discussion so far is temperament. And the tendency for modern pianists to default to modern tunings may be part of the reason for my disaffection with the instrument. The dissonances are smoothed over. Certainly that's the case with Scarlatti and Haydn.

There are so many fine recordings of the Goldbergs it's hard for me to list the ones which have really impressed me - Hantai 2, Verlet 2, Leonhardt 3, Glen Wilson, Sergio Vartolo, Lars Ulrich Mortensen, Ken Gilbert. On piano, Waltef Riemer and Burkard Schliessman maybe, though neither are the equal of the best of the harpsichordists. Has anyone heard Bernard Lagacé's CD on organ?


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## fairbanks (Jun 25, 2014)

Violin Concertos 1042, 1043


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## DrMuller (May 26, 2014)

How familiar are you to Bach's orchestral work?


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## DrMuller (May 26, 2014)

I think you should definitely start with his orchestral work. Start with his 6 Brandenburg Concertos, Violin Concertos BWV 1041, 1042 and 1043, Concerto for Oboe and Violin BWV 1060 (his best Concerto in my opinion), his Oboe Concertos BWV 1053, 1055, 1056, 1059 (These are transcribed from his harpsichord Concertos but are believed to be original Oboe concertos; either way they sound so much better in the Oboe version), Harpsichord Concerto BWV 1052 and his 4 Orchestral Suites. You can buy his orchestral work on 8 CDs set from the Naxos label. The works are performed by Cologne Chamber Orchestra; I own those and they are excellent, they are not very price if that is an issue. You are definitely in for a treat. In my opinion it doesn't get much better than this if you are into baroque music. His music is full of harmony, rhythm and beautiful melodies. They are somewhat more complex than the more simple Vivaldi Concertos but still very accessible. As a fan of both Vivaldi and Bach I must tell you that I think Bach is far superior, and I dare say this only because I am a fan of both of them. Check these out. And by the way, I think his Organ music and Art of Fugue might be a little ambitious for you to start with, but later on, you should check these out as well. From reading your post I think you are more into the orchestral stuff.


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## DrMuller (May 26, 2014)

This is Bach's Concerto for Oboe and Violin. Now How amazing is this performance?


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

The first Keyboard Partita, preferably on piano for a beginner.

Once he/she's hooked, convert to the harpsichord.


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