# I'd like to nominate The Lamb Lies Down On Broadway as the greatest postwar Opera



## DavidMahler (Dec 28, 2009)

Folks,

I'm not kidding. Genesis's Lamb Lies Down On Broadway, despite it's rock facade, and its absence in concert programs, is in fact a brilliant opera. I consider the musical writing here to be as good as anything from any post war composer and perhaps if I were to take the liberty of being perceived as foolish... I consider it a greater work over anything by Puccini.

Please, if you are not aware of this work, pick up Genesis's Lamb Lies Down On Broadway.

Let me also say... I am NOT a progressive rock fan.....Most of Yes I cannot stand, don't like King Crimson, some Jethro Tull is nice, I think Gentle Giant are kinda cool. But other than that, you will not see me touting any progressive rock band as anything impressive.

Genesis (Tony Banks in particular) should be ranked alongside any composer of the last 50 years. 

The Lamb Lies Down On Broadway > Nixon In China


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## violadude (May 2, 2011)

DavidMahler said:


> Folks,
> 
> I'm not kidding. Genesis's Lamb Lies Down On Broadway, despite it's rock facade, and its absence in concert programs, is in fact a brilliant opera. I consider the musical writing here to be as good as anything from any post war composer and perhaps if I were to take the liberty of being perceived as foolish... I consider it a greater work over anything by Puccini.
> 
> ...


I have not heard either the Lamb lies down on broadway or Nixon in China yet. However, I do think that many progressive Rock bands are on the same kind of level as the acclaimed composers in the classical music world. Whatever that means.


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## jalex (Aug 21, 2011)

I'm not a big opera fan and hardly its best judge but I think The Turn of the Screw is much better than TLLDOB.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

Yes, the Lamb is a fine work musically and lyrically. Genesis wrote a lot of fine music until they morphed into the um... Phil Collins pop trio. The music of Gentle Giant is also superb. I urge any rock leaning classical fans to seek our their records. Especially the ones recorded between 1971-1976. Their keyboard player Kerry Minnear is a superb composer/arranger with a solid classical background. 1971-1976 for Genesis too!


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## violadude (May 2, 2011)

starthrower said:


> Yes, the Lamb is a fine work musically and lyrically. Genesis wrote a lot of fine music until they morphed into the um... Phil Collins pop trio. The music of Gentle Giant is also superb. I urge any rock leaning classical fans to seek our their records. Especially the ones recorded between 1971-1976. Their keyboard player Kerry Minnear is a superb composer/arranger with a solid classical background. 1971-1976 for Genesis too!


What I have heard of Gentle Giant sounds amazing! I read that they were also a group that kind of took the pop road near the end. Is that true?

As a side note, this thread probably belongs in the non-classical section...


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

Yeah, these bands were under pressure from their record companies to go commercial. Gentle Giant's last few albums were a big disappointment. They peaked with their superb 1977 live album Playing The Fool. These five guys were truly amazing musicians who could play many different instruments. The earlier albums featured a sextet with older brother Phil Shulman on reeds. I would highly recommend their albums Acquiring The Taste, Three Friends, The Power And The Glory, and Free Hand. They've finally been remastered from the original tapes and sound great!


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## Guest (Dec 4, 2011)

I want to see two lists, side by side:

one, a list of all the post (WW) war (II) operas and
two, a list of all the post (WW) war (II) operas that "DavidMahler" has listened to.

Then we'll talk.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

And I forgot Octopus. Another great one. But seek out the live album. They even sound like an orchestra tuning up as the record fades in! Very exciting stuff!


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## violadude (May 2, 2011)

some guy said:


> I want to see two lists, side by side:
> 
> one, a list of all the post (WW) war (II) operas and
> two, a list of all the post (WW) war (II) operas that "DavidMahler" has listened to.
> ...


This is pretty much exactly what I was just thinking lol


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## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

Interesting idea! If wikipedia is to be believed then had Peter Gabriel not got his own way by writing the story then the album could have ended up being a Mike Rutherford-helmed effort based on 'The Little Prince' instead(!). Musically TLLDOB would without a doubt still stand up but I think the plot would need to be embellished with a bit more connective tissue here and there.

One rock album that would be promising for the stage (or screen) is Zappa's 'Joe's Garage' - therein lies a plot which is entertaining, clever and downright hilarious in equal measure (even allowing for the 'shaggy dog story'-type ending and the fact that its characteristic lack of political correctness would enrage approximately 50% of anyone who came anywhere near it these days). On record it was originally designated as a work in three acts so I wonder if Uncle Frank harboured hopes of turning it into a visual project at some point?


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## DavidMahler (Dec 28, 2009)

GG is really the only other band I care about from that era. Tull is nice too, but I don't consider them as great.

Turn of the Screw is greater than Lamb? Peter Grimes too I guess you would say? Not in my opinion.


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## DavidMahler (Dec 28, 2009)

some guy said:


> I want to see two lists, side by side:
> 
> one, a list of all the post (WW) war (II) operas and
> two, a list of all the post (WW) war (II) operas that "DavidMahler" has listened to.
> ...


I've listened to more than you think. I have over 450 different operas in my collection.

You guys just don't know me well yet. I've been "around"


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## violadude (May 2, 2011)

DavidMahler said:


> GG is really the only other band I care about from that era. Tull is nice too, but I don't consider them as great.
> 
> Turn of the Screw is greater than Lamb? Peter Grimes too I guess you would say? *Not in my opinion.*


Your opinion is WRONG!!!!

I'm sorry I couldn't resist.  this is me in a good mood


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

DavidMahler said:


> I've listened to more than you think. I have over 450 different operas in my collection.


Wow! I don't think I could listen to half that many if I lived to be 200 years old!


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## DavidMahler (Dec 28, 2009)

violadude said:


> Your opinion is WRONG!!!!
> 
> I'm sorry I couldn't resist.  this is me in a good mood


LOL

I own every Britten opera. Three recordings of Grimes, and two Billy Budd and 2 of Turn Of Screw.... Lamb is better in my opinion, the music is more brilliant i think


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## violadude (May 2, 2011)

DavidMahler said:


> LOL
> 
> I own every Britten opera. Three recordings of Grimes, and two Billy Budd and *2 of Turn Of Screw.... Lamb is better in my opinion, the music is more brilliant i think*


Does The Lamb lie down on broadway have pedophiles?....no?....I didn't think so.

I rest my case.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

I actually prefer Trick Of The Tail, and Selling England By The Pound to the Lamb. I'm not saying they're superior, but I just enjoy them a little more.


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## DavidMahler (Dec 28, 2009)

starthrower said:


> I actually prefer Trick Of The Tail, and Selling England By The Pound to the Lamb. I'm not saying they're superior, but I just enjoy them a little more.


I like Selling England very much. In the list of my favorite rock albums, Lamb is 2 and Selling is 5 probably.

Trick has some very nice moments. I credit all the musical success of Genesis to Banks

Regarding your other comment about 200 years old....  .... I generally will only listen once to work if it doesn't grab me. If it does grab me, I generally buy a second interpretation of it.

I still have about 1000 CDs unopened for this reason


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## jalex (Aug 21, 2011)

DavidMahler said:


> GG is really the only other band I care about from that era. Tull is nice too, but I don't consider them as great.
> 
> Turn of the Screw is greater than Lamb? Peter Grimes too I guess you would say? Not in my opinion.


Those two are the only post-war operas I know. Yes, I think both of them are.

Although Genesis are in many ways musically more interesting than almost all other rock bands I've heard, they share for one thing the ubiquitous fault of crap, annoying drum parts which rarely add anything to songs and frequently turn what could be a pretty good song in to a tedious one. Until there is a revolution in which drum writing is completely changed for the better or the drum kit is mostly eradicated from rock music I'm staying well away.

Thinking about it, rhythm in general I think is the area in which popular music at its best still lags furthest behind classical music. Even when unusual time signatures or time signature changes are used I find the rhythmic writing generally lacks interest.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

Well, buying CDs is easier than listening to them. And listening to them once is easier than absorbing the music due to repeated listening. But we all have our obsessions!

I'd give more credit to the other Genesis members besides Banks. It was a group effort. Phil's drumming was superb, and Hackett deserves some credit too. Although I think he's a better guitarist than composer.


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## violadude (May 2, 2011)

starthrower said:


> Well, buying CDs is easier than listening to them.


Not when you're a broke college student it's not.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

violadude said:


> Not when you're a broke college student it's not.


You'll look back on these days fondly when your older. There's something special about becoming fully absorbed in a small amount of music. I'm not even sure broke college students can experience this anymore, what with everything being so easily accessed with the computer. I really enjoyed the days when I only had about 30-40 records, and I couldn't just turn on a computer and listen to everything under the sun.


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## DavidMahler (Dec 28, 2009)

It's just. If I listen to music that didn't grab me right away, I get hung up on the idea that I am wasting time but I refuse to dispose of anything in hopes that I can one day come back to it. 

Anyone here listen to Elliott Smith? He's the one songwriter that I put up there with the masters. It's like he came around, extracted everything remarkable about great post war 20th century music and without the flashiness of progressive rock. I consider him no less a composer of song than Schubert.


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## violadude (May 2, 2011)

DavidMahler said:


> It's just. If I listen to music that didn't grab me right away, I get hung up on the idea that I am wasting time but I refuse to dispose of anything in hopes that I can one day come back to it.


Interesting, Im the exact opposite. If I listen to something that doesn't grab me right away it makes me want to listen more until it does grab me.


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## Fsharpmajor (Dec 14, 2008)

Speaking of rock operas, let's not forget about The Who's _Quadrophenia_ here. (It really should have been named _Quadroph*r*enia_, but never mind). Offhand, it's the most similar thing I can think of to _The Lamb Lies Down on Broadway_. If you like one of them, you should hear the other.


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## DavidMahler (Dec 28, 2009)

violadude said:


> Interesting, Im the exact opposite. If I listen to something that doesn't grab me right away it makes me want to listen more until it does grab me.


If something has a reputation, I'll give it many chances. But if I'm listening to a suite by d'Angelbert or piano work by Crawford Seeger or something like that I can only give it so much time if it doesn't grab me y know?


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## violadude (May 2, 2011)

DavidMahler said:


> If something has a reputation, I'll give it many chances. But if I'm listening to a suite by d'Angelbert or piano work by Crawford Seeger or something like that I can only give it so much time if it doesn't grab me y know?


No I don't know...but everyone is different I suppose


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

violadude said:


> Interesting, Im the exact opposite. If I listen to something that doesn't grab me right away it makes me want to listen more until it does grab me.


Exactly! If I want something that grabs me right away, I can put on a Beatles record!


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## bigshot (Nov 22, 2011)

When I was in college, I listened to a lot of "Art Rock". When I had the chance to hear a wider spectrum of music, I realized that Art Rock was neither.


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## kv466 (May 18, 2011)

DavidMahler said:


> Anyone here listen to Elliott Smith? He's the one songwriter that I put up there with the masters. It's like he came around, extracted everything remarkable about great post war 20th century music and without the flashiness of progressive rock. I consider him no less a composer of song than Schubert.


...Schubert aside, I agree that he was a great song writer and had a beautiful and unique sound and style of playing all his own; not to mention the haunting and beautiful voice.


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

bigshot said:


> When I was in college, I listened to a lot of "Art Rock". When I had the chance to hear a wider spectrum of music, I realized that Art Rock was neither.


Hey! Don't diss me like that!


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## Guest (Dec 5, 2011)

DavidMahler said:


> I've listened to more than you think. I have over 450 different operas in my collection.
> 
> You guys just don't know me well yet. I've been "around"


OK. Let's see the lists, then. Only post WW II operas, remember. (Are all 450 of your different operas from 1945 or more recent?)


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## violadude (May 2, 2011)

DavidMahler said:


> It's just. If I listen to music that didn't grab me right away, I get hung up on the idea that I am wasting time but I refuse to dispose of anything in hopes that I can one day come back to it.
> 
> Anyone here listen to Elliott Smith? He's the one songwriter that I put up there with the masters. It's like he came around, extracted everything remarkable about great post war 20th century music and without the flashiness of progressive rock. I consider him no less a composer of song than Schubert.


Hmm DavidMahler, I've noticed you are quite fond of making lofty and controversial statements.


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## bassClef (Oct 29, 2006)

I've not heard The Lamb in decades, but thanks to this thread have been listening whilst working this afternoon. Bring back the concept album! I can only think of The Decemberists and Anaïs Mitchell who have done it in recent years, both to good effect.


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## violadude (May 2, 2011)

bassClef said:


> I've not heard The Lamb in decades, but thanks to this thread have been listening whilst working this afternoon. Bring back the concept album! I can only think of The Decemberists and Anaïs Mitchell who have done it in recent years, both to good effect.


There have been plenty of concept albums in recent years actually.


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## bassClef (Oct 29, 2006)

Those are the only two I know, can you recommend any?


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

Two fairly recent concept albums that make my top 5 of all time albums:

Tori Amos - Scarlets walk
Porcupine Tree - Fear of a blank planet


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## DavidMahler (Dec 28, 2009)

I'll list the operas when I have a chance. Listing about 35 post war operas isn't tough, but I have to go into my collection and see which ones I have. I forget. I'm not going to sit and list 290 individual operas though (450 if we count interpretations). I believe though that I own every opera composed by every major composer since Monteverdi.

Regarding my controversial statements.... I really do things Elliott Smith will be remembered in a way which his legacy has not yet achieved. I don't love rock music. 

The only bands I care for are:
The Beatles
early Genesis
Elliott Smith
Joni Mitchell

that's about it.

Occasionally I'll enjoy some Steely Dan, Stevie Wonder, Zeppelin, Beach Boys, Nirvana, Radiohead, Jeff Buckley, Jethro Tull, The Who, Dylan, Nick Drake

But those artists are kinda far from my interests

The first 4 mentioned are the only ones that matter to me, so when I make the claim about Lamb, I'm not some rock fanatic who is looking to be controversial. I am a classical fanatic who genuinely thinks Genesis's achievements with Lamb are among the best musical achievements of the past 50 years in any category.

Elliott Smith is, in my opinion, the only songwriter who wrote in the singer-songwriter milieu, which has a body of work of such high musical and lyrical quality, that I have to consider it on par with most great composers. He really achieved a level of purity, sincerity and musicality that not even Lennon/McCartney; G&I Gershwin; Ellington & Strayhorn; and in my opinion, any other lieder composer of the 20th Century achieved. I consider Smith to be the greatest songwriter since Schubert.


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## violadude (May 2, 2011)

DavidMahler said:


> I'll list the operas when I have a chance. Listing about 35 post war operas isn't tough, but I have to go into my collection and see which ones I have. I forget. I'm not going to sit and list 290 individual operas though (450 if we count interpretations). I believe though that I own every opera composed by every major composer since Monteverdi.
> 
> Regarding my controversial statements.... I really do things Elliott Smith will be remembered in a way which his legacy has not yet achieved. I don't love rock music.
> 
> ...


Better than Schumann??? huh?? After that big thread you made about how underrated he is here??


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## violadude (May 2, 2011)

bassClef said:


> Those are the only two I know, can you recommend any?


Well, recommend is kind of a strong word, since I don't know what you're into really. I know that bands like Marilyn Manson and Nine Inch Nails have produced a few concept albums, Antichrist Superstar and Downward Spiral (respectively) are the two I can think of off the top of my head.

I know there's a concept album by the group Tiger Lillies called Cocateau Prison, however I don't recommend it...it's pretty messed up lol (I like it though).

I cant think of much off the top of my head. But I know I have read about quite a few recently.


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## DavidMahler (Dec 28, 2009)

Schumann and Smith are one of the same spirit. In fact on youtube I see them compared a bit.

I would take at least 2 of Smith's albums over Dichterliebe


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## DavidMahler (Dec 28, 2009)

Art Rock said:


> Two fairly recent concept albums that make my top 5 of all time albums:
> 
> Tori Amos - Scarlets walk
> *Porcupine Tree - Fear of a blank planet*


Really?

I did not like this at all, but again I don't tend to like art rock very much.


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## violadude (May 2, 2011)

Just to be sure, is this the Elliot Smith that you're talking about?


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## DavidMahler (Dec 28, 2009)

yes it is!!!


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## violadude (May 2, 2011)

Hm interesting!...

I'm not going to bully you on your taste in music or anything. But claiming that this guys songs (which sound rather average to me) are greater than the songs of Schumann, Brahms, Wolf, Strauss, Mahler, Schoenberg, Berg, Webern, or Szymanowski is quite a statement indeed! 

You might need to explain yourself quite a bit on this one....just sayin'.......


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## DavidMahler (Dec 28, 2009)




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## DavidMahler (Dec 28, 2009)

and my personal favorite song by him, though it still remains unreleased...


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## violadude (May 2, 2011)

Well well, I gotta hand it to you, these songs are much more interesting than the ones I was hearing on youtube. This Elliot Smith guy is not too shabby indeed. However, I stick to my previous sentiment.



violadude said:


> Claiming that this guys songs (which sound rather average to me) are greater than the songs of Schumann, Brahms, Wolf, Strauss, Mahler, Schoenberg, Berg, Webern, or Szymanowski is quite a statement indeed!
> 
> You might need to explain yourself quite a bit on this one....just sayin'.......


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## DavidMahler (Dec 28, 2009)

violadude said:


> Well well, I gotta hand it to you, these songs are much more interesting than the ones I was hearing on youtube. This Elliot Smith guy is not too shabby indeed. However, I stick to my previous sentiment.


Elliott wasn't a trained classical musician of any kind. But his songwriting is no weaker in my opinion.


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## violadude (May 2, 2011)

DavidMahler said:


> Elliott wasn't a trained classical musician of any kind. But his songwriting is no weaker in my opinion.


Well....it's different. I'm not sure if you can compare classical songwriting with rock-ish songwriting, now that I think about it.


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## Klavierspieler (Jul 16, 2011)

DavidMahler said:


> Schumann and Smith are one of the same spirit. In fact on youtube I see them compared a bit.
> 
> I would take at least 2 of Smith's albums over Dichterliebe


Death to the fool who speaks thus...


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## DavidMahler (Dec 28, 2009)

Klavierspieler said:


> Death to the fool who speaks thus...


would you feel at all responsible if i died today?


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## violadude (May 2, 2011)

Wow, this thread has taken quite a dark turn...


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## DavidMahler (Dec 28, 2009)

violadude said:


> Wow, this thread has taken quite a dark turn...


lol

Back to genesis.....


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## DavidMahler (Dec 28, 2009)

^ Just that opening alone is brilliant I think


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## science (Oct 14, 2010)

violadude said:


> Wow, this thread has taken quite a dark turn...


Thus let me now suggest _Sweeney Todd_ or _Le Grand Macabre_ as additional nominations for the title of "greatest postwar opera."


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## violadude (May 2, 2011)

science said:


> Thus let me now suggest _Sweeney Todd_ or _Le Grand Macabre_ as additional nominations for the title of "greatest postwar opera."


lol good transition.


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