# Which religions have contributed to classical music?



## mud (May 17, 2012)

Catholocism is primarily what I have encountered, any others?


----------



## Lunasong (Mar 15, 2011)

J. S. Bach was Lutheran.

Of interest:
http://www.chicagochorale.org/why-did-bach-a-lutheran-compose-a-mass/


----------



## mud (May 17, 2012)

Lunasong said:


> J. S. Bach was Lutheran.
> 
> Of interest:
> http://www.chicagochorale.org/why-did-bach-a-lutheran-compose-a-mass/


Is this true of other German composers?


----------



## Lukecash12 (Sep 21, 2009)

mud said:


> Is this true of other German composers?


Several. Telemann, Graupner, Bach's sons, everyone else who held that post at Leipzig or somewhere else close. Mostly famous contrapuntists and organists were kappelmeisters in the Lutheran churches, like Buxtehude.


----------



## mud (May 17, 2012)

Interesting. I seem to remember some Jewish composers too (but I'd have to research my collection to find their names).


----------



## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

Lunasong said:


> J. S. Bach was Lutheran.
> 
> Of interest:
> http://www.chicagochorale.org/why-did-bach-a-lutheran-compose-a-mass/


Hey, thanks for the link, _Lunasong_. I'm going to give the work another go - if I can locate a recording with tolerable singers.


----------



## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

Charles Goudimel was French Reformed. He was slaughtered in the St. Bartholomew's Day massacre.

Jan Sweelink was Calvinist also but wrote some lovely motets for his Catholic friend.


----------



## violadude (May 2, 2011)

Taoist and Buddhist thought contributed to and influenced a lot of 20th century music.


----------



## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

mud said:


> Interesting. I seem to remember some Jewish composers too (but I'd have to research my collection to find their names).


Naxos' Milken Archive has a lot of recordings by Jewish composers for their services.


----------



## mud (May 17, 2012)

violadude said:


> Taoist and Buddhist thought contributed to and influenced a lot of 20th century music.


Was this expressed in the form of incorporating their musical traditions?


----------



## Lukecash12 (Sep 21, 2009)

mud said:


> Interesting. I seem to remember some Jewish composers too (but I'd have to research my collection to find their names).


It seems to me, that more of the Jewish composers I know of were actually converts, or had unclear, I guess undisclosed religious beliefs. Alkan, for example, was I think a practicing Jew, because a local synagogue offered him a job, but what makes the issue not so clear is that he translated both the OT and NT into French. Sounds like a Messianic Jew to me, which isn't quite as uncommon as people would think in France of that time.

If you're unfamiliar with Messianic Jews, they observe the Mosaic Law much like Orthodox Jews do, but the Talmud is more or less optional material to them, and they have views similar to most of the rest of Christianity as to actual salvation requirements. Basically Christians who want to preserve the traditions merely because they appreciate them, I guess. I myself have often considered joining in in such observances with my friends of this denomination, because although I don't view it as necessary either, there is of course some sentimentality behind that tradition and I can see a lot of good in preserving it. Some denominations don't accept them. They have a tricky history, and I think are one of the most interesting recent groups.


----------



## waldvogel (Jul 10, 2011)

Sergei Rachmaninoff, among others, wrote some wonderful liturgical music for the Russian Orthodox Church.


----------



## BurningDesire (Jul 15, 2012)

Well, assuming we are sticking to the Western Classical tradition, I'd say up until the twentieth century it was pretty much only the various brands of Christianity, since it held a pretty powerful authoritarian grip over Europe for much of the recorded tradition of classical music.


----------



## Huilunsoittaja (Apr 6, 2010)

Someone shared the last mvmt, of this symphony with me a while back, a very neat discovery:


----------



## mud (May 17, 2012)

BurningDesire said:


> Well, assuming we are sticking to the Western Classical tradition, I'd say up until the twentieth century it was pretty much only the various brands of Christianity, since it held a pretty powerful authoritarian grip over Europe for much of the recorded tradition of classical music.


When I think of Chrisianity, its evangelical/gospel music comes to mind. I do not recall classical pieces that are referred to as Christian (maybe it is a loaded term).


----------



## Lukecash12 (Sep 21, 2009)

mud said:


> When I think of Chrisianity, its evangelical/gospel music comes to mind. I do not recall classical pieces that are referred to as Christian (maybe it is a loaded term).


Do you mean "classical" as in classical period? Because there are tons of "classical music" pieces that have been referred to as Christian pieces. You don't recall Beethoven's missa solemnis?


----------



## mud (May 17, 2012)

Lukecash12 said:


> Do you mean "classical" as in classical period? Because there are tons of "classical music" pieces that have been referred to as Christian pieces. You don't recall Beethoven's missa solemnis?


Yes, classical music in general (or was that a no)? But no, I have not yet listened to his vocal works. Although I generally associate the Latin language with the Catholic mass. Does it embody Chrisitianity as well?


----------



## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Lukecash12 said:


> Alkan, for example, was I think a practicing Jew...


True. When he died, it was believed that he had been crushed by a bookcase while trying to reach a Talmud on top. Turned out that wasn't true, so it was argued instead that it *should* have been true. Makes sense to me.


----------



## Andreas (Apr 27, 2012)

mud said:


> Is this true of other German composers?


Brahms was Lutheran, though he as said to be a non-believer. Mendelssohn was baptized and raised Lutheran. His Jewish parents probably didn't want their son to carry that baggage in widely antisemitic Germany.

Martin Luther himself was a composer of church music. Mendelssohn took a choral by Luther and based the finale of his 5th symphony on it. Bach also reworked some of Luther's chorales.


----------



## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Andreas said:


> Mendelssohn was baptized and raised Lutheran. His Jewish parents probably didn't want their son to carry that baggage in widely antisemitic Germany.


Just for the record, from Wiki: "Abraham Mendelssohn renounced the Jewish religion; he and his wife deliberately decided not to have Felix circumcised, in contravention of the Jewish tradition. Felix and his siblings were first brought up without religious education, and were baptised as Lutherans in 1816."

BTW Luther, despite Mendelssohn's use of his chorale, became in old age a vicious anti-semite and published several books calling for Jews to be driven from their homes, denied the right to occupations, and so forth. Wagner was a distant also-ran in this area. Luther's late writings remain an acute embarrassment to the Lutheran church.


----------



## violadude (May 2, 2011)

Andreas said:


> Brahms was Lutheran, though he as said to be a non-believer. Mendelssohn was baptized and raised Lutheran. His Jewish parents probably didn't want their son to carry that baggage in widely antisemitic Germany.
> 
> Martin Luther himself was a composer of church music. Mendelssohn took a choral by Luther and based the finale of his 5th symphony on it. Bach also reworked some of Luther's chorales.


I used to be Luthren but then I didnt wasnt because I turned into an atheist person ya/


----------



## Andreas (Apr 27, 2012)

KenOC said:


> BTW Luther, despite Mendelssohn's use of his chorale, became in old age a vicious anti-semite and published several books calling for Jews to be driven from their homes, denied the right to occupations, and so forth. Wagner was a distant also-ran in this area. Luther's late writings remain an acute embarrassment to the Lutheran church.


Absolutely, Luther was one of the godfathers of Germany antisemitism. He was, in this regard, still a man of the Middle Ages.


----------



## Lukecash12 (Sep 21, 2009)

mud said:


> Yes, classical music in general (or was that a no)? But no, I have not yet listened to his vocal works. Although I generally associate the Latin language with the Catholic mass. Does it embody Chrisitianity as well?


I'm not sure what you mean by embodying Christianity. Does every denomination use masses in their services? That's a definite no. Yet masses are still considered Christian works. I don't see how this is confusing (no offense intended), given that they- being masses- have a religious text, based on biblical precepts, and were started by a group most widely considered to be Christian, even by many to be the original Christian group.

And Beethoven's missa solemnis is just one example. Christian music dominates a lot of the vocal scene in classical music, especially from the 18th century back. It used to be that composers either tried to land a position at court, or more typically at a church, and they mainly composed music for church services. A lot of music was called secular just because it wasn't written for a specific day (you see, in many groups there is always appointed a reading from a certain passage for certain days), and was still religious. That's just how much of it was Christian. Bach once said that all music was to be made for the glory of God, and intended for even his prelude and fugue sets and dance suites to be played in church. So, not only was a lot of the music Christian themed, but the main place for normal people to go to hear music was church, and music that wasn't specifically Christian themed was still intended for play in church.

It was only when composers began to publish their work more to make money that way, when concert and opera halls began to prevail, and when the middle class started to flourish more and patronize the arts, even giving people of "lower birth" the opportunity to succeed at composition, that the Christian churches began to dominate the music scene less. However, they were still a dominant element, and there is a wealth of examples of Christian works all throughout classical music thereafter. Brahm's requiem, Schubert's masses and magnificats, Mozart's requiem and mass in C minor, Liszt's symphony based on the Divine Comedy, Rachmaninov's Vespers, Tchaikovsky's chants and hymns (entire services are done to this day with nothing but Tchaikovsky, by the Orthodox Church).






What a magnificent church service, celebrating the day of St. John Chrysostom.



> The work is presented here in the form of a Russian Orthodox church service, including the chants/prayers of the Deacon (bass Boris Schumilov) and the Priest (tenor Evgenij Prizhilutzkij).
> 
> An English translation of the text is found here:
> http://www.orthodox.net/services/sluzebnic-chrysostom.pdf
> ...


----------



## mud (May 17, 2012)

Lukecash12 said:


> I'm not sure what you mean by embodying Christianity. Does every denomination use masses in their services? That's a definite no. Yet masses are still considered Christian works. I don't see how this is confusing (no offense intended), given that they- being masses- have a religious text, based on biblical precepts, and were started by a group most widely considered to be Christian, even by many to be the original Christian group...


I am just wondering if Christian music is based on Latin text in the way that Catholic music is, or if it was the same text at that.


----------



## Lukecash12 (Sep 21, 2009)

mud said:


> I am just wondering if Christian music is based on Latin text in the way that Catholic music is, or if it was the same text at that.


???? No, a variety of languages was used, and there are traditions other than the creedal formulas of the Latin mass, such as liturgical music, various quotes from the scripture, etc. Some of it was just in the form of an original prayer as well:






Here Bach first gives us his own prayer, a popular Lutheran prayer also used by Buxtehude, for example, which quotes Romans chapter 8 verse 1 in the middle. It was written for a funeral service at St. Thomas' Church, Leipzig.



> German Text:
> 
> Jesu, meine Freude,
> Meines Herzens Weide,
> ...


----------



## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

Jewish liturgical and folk music influenced the compositions of Ernest Bloch, like the well-known Schelomo for cello and orchestra, and Baal Shem.


----------



## mud (May 17, 2012)

Lukecash12 said:


> ???? No, a variety of languages was used, and there are traditions other than the creedal formulas of the Latin mass, such as liturgical music, various quotes from the scripture, etc. Some of it was just in the form of an original prayer as well...


In other words, are you saying that one cannot distinguish between the hymns of these religions based on their language alone (excluding translations)?


----------



## Lukecash12 (Sep 21, 2009)

mud said:


> In other words, are you saying that one cannot distinguish between the hymns of these religions based on their language alone (excluding translations)?


Well, there are some trends language wise. For example: if you are hearing Christian music in Russian, the chances are that it's Eastern Orthodox.


----------



## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

mud said:


> Yes, classical music in general (or was that a no)? But no, I have not yet listened to his vocal works. Although I generally associate the Latin language with the Catholic mass. Does it embody Chrisitianity as well?


Oh dear,you really must do your homework before embarking on a thread
There are so many examples of Christian works from Beethoven' s"Christ On the Mount of Olives"to Verdi's Requiem through Berli oz Grande Messe Des Morts.


----------



## Norse (May 10, 2010)

Strange how nobody has mentioned Bernstein, which at least to me seems to be the most 'explicitly Jewish' (in the religious sense too, not just the cultural sense) of the well-known composers. 

Mahler was also Jewish, but wasn't 'religious' in the strict sense. (To be honest I don't know if Bernstein was, either.) He later pragmatically converted to catholicism because it was a requirement for the position of Opera Director in Vienna. A work like the Resurrection Symphony seems to be meant as universal and anti-secterian: "The earth quakes, the graves burst open, the dead arise and stream on in endless procession..... The trumpets of the apocalypse ring out... And behold, it is no judgement.... There is no punishment and no reward. An overwhelming love illuminates our being. We know and are."

Brahms did similar things with his German Requiem. Even though the texts are from the bible, he deliberately skipped any explicit references to Christ. When he was asked to make the work more secterian, he said he would sooner drop the German part and call it a Human Requiem.

The most well-known Zen Buddhist in Western art music is probably John Cage. Celibidache was also a Zen Buddhist. Not sure how or if it influenced his conducting. 

Also, Gustav Holst was interested in Hindu spirituality and composed several works set to Sanskrit texts.


----------



## mud (May 17, 2012)

moody said:


> Oh dear,you really must do your homework before embarking on a thread...


Yes, it is a casual topic based on what I have gathered through an osmosis of sorts. No, this does not apply to all topics. Interesting discussion anyway.


----------



## joen_cph (Jan 17, 2010)

_Nordic mythology_ was naturally very popular in Scandinavia too in the 19th Century, not just among German composers, albeit in a rather anecdotical way (N.W. Gade, J.P.E. Hartmann, Hornemann etc).

Iceland´s *Jon Leifs* seems to have been more deeply interested and committed as regards the religious myths accompanying it, including the Edda Myth of the creation of the world and the Baldr Tale, described in very large works & recorded by BIS. His somewhat folksy style often seems quite in accordance with the content.

http://www.amazon.com/Jón-Leifs-Cre...dp_top_cm_cr_acr_txt?ie=UTF8&showViewpoints=1









Here´s a picture of its main geography, taken from this site:
http://www.germanicmythology.com/original/cosmologyIntro.html


----------



## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

We can't forget the Anglicans, especially in those crazy days of Thomas Tallis, who one day was a Catholic composer, then Anglican, then Catholic. Or William Byrd, who stayed recusant and managed not to get killed for it.


----------



## mud (May 17, 2012)

joen_cph said:


> _Nordic mythology_ was naturally very popular in Scandinavia too in the 19th Century, not just among German composers, albeit in a rather anecdotical way (N.W. Gade, J.P.E. Hartmann, Hornemann etc).


I actually did a parody of Wagner's Ride of the Valkyries, retelling it in light of the pop culture appearance it made.

I also translated a verse of Vivaldi's Gloria to illustrate its syllables between two languages.

Then I conceptualized Atlas, the Seraph, and a requiem in other parodies alternating between religion and mythology.

They each contributed to my appreciation of these subjects and the music, so I can see why they are a common theme.


----------



## joen_cph (Jan 17, 2010)

mud said:


> I actually did a parody of Wagner's Ride of the Valkyries, retelling it in light of the pop culture appearance it made.
> 
> I also translated a verse of Vivaldi's Gloria to illustrate its syllables between two languages.
> 
> ...


In case you have already told about it, I missed this; under what circumstances did you make these ?


----------



## mud (May 17, 2012)

joen_cph said:


> In case you have already told about it, I missed this; under what circumstances did you make these ?


Personal interest. I was blogging about song and dance, translations, and patriotism and illustrating the topics with these experiments in postproduction.


----------



## BurningDesire (Jul 15, 2012)

mud said:


> Yes, classical music in general (or was that a no)? But no, I have not yet listened to his vocal works. Although I generally associate the Latin language with the Catholic mass. Does it embody Chrisitianity as well?


*whispers* Catholicism is a brand of Christianity. o3o


----------



## mud (May 17, 2012)

BurningDesire said:


> *whispers* Catholicism is a brand of Christianity. o3o


Which is a brand of Judaism, no? Not necessarily the same language.


----------



## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

mud said:


> Which is a brand of Judaism, no? Not necessarily the same language.


Yeah. Catholicism_ is_ Christianity, but when they get dogmatic, like veneration of Mary and the saints, the primacy of the Pope, liturgical practices, sharp differences arise from "Christianity" in general.

I'm Christian but not Catholic. There is a lot of Catholic music which I listen to as an aid to worship, but some of it, like the motets which venerate Mary, only connect with me as music.


----------



## Lukecash12 (Sep 21, 2009)

Manxfeeder said:


> Yeah. Catholicism_ is_ Christianity, but when they get dogmatic, like veneration of Mary and the saints, the primacy of the Pope, liturgical practices, sharp differences arise from "Christianity" in general.
> 
> I'm Christian but not Catholic. There is a lot of Catholic music which I listen to as an aid to worship, but some of it, like the motets which venerate Mary, only connect with me as music.


Yeah, I get that, but I can share in their sentimentality towards Mary. To think that she was His mother, you know? That's a real novel thing, that. So while I don't share in the idea that she is some Theotokos or intermediary, it still tugs at me much like other religious material.


----------



## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

An unusual religious influence...one of my favorite composers, Geirr Tveitt, had an "affiliation with the so-called Neo-Heathenistic movement... [It's] main thesis...was the total refutation of Christianity in favor of a new heathen system based upon Norse mythology and the Edda poetry. The movement refuted Christianity and sought to re-introduce the Norse pre-Christian system of belief -- the adoration of Odin, Thor and Balder."

[quote from Wiki]

There's more on this, and on the movement's influence on Tveitt's music, in Wiki.


----------



## Lukecash12 (Sep 21, 2009)

mud said:


> Which is a brand of Judaism, no? Not necessarily the same language.


Here's another example of you being extremely confusing.


----------



## BurningDesire (Jul 15, 2012)

Lukecash12 said:


> Here's another example of you being extremely confusing.


Well, for once he says something right XD Christianity and Islam really are just offshoot sects of Judaism, who then have dozens of their own offshoot sects.


----------



## Andreas (Apr 27, 2012)

Many Christians are like Marxists who haven't even read Marx. Marx himself was not a Marxist, just like Christ wasn't a Christian.


----------



## BurningDesire (Jul 15, 2012)

Andreas said:


> Many Christians are like Marxists who haven't even read Marx. Marx himself was not a Marxist, just like Christ wasn't a Christian.


And like how Schoenberg wasn't a dogmatic serialist


----------



## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

mud said:


> Was this expressed in the form of incorporating their musical traditions?


Toshiro Mayuzumi: Nirvana Symphony (1958) uses Buddhist monks singing traditional chants within the fabric of the piece.


----------



## Lukecash12 (Sep 21, 2009)

Andreas said:


> Many Christians are like Marxists who haven't even read Marx. Marx himself was not a Marxist, just like Christ wasn't a Christian.


I've not made any such sweeping statements about anyone else, so I'd appreciate it if the same favor could be done for me. Suffice to say that many, many Christians would beg to differ here.


----------



## violadude (May 2, 2011)

Andreas said:


> Many Christians are like Marxists who haven't even read Marx. Marx himself was not a Marxist, just like Christ wasn't a Christian.


What? Which Christians are particularly similar to Marxists? Over here in 'merica they sure as hell aren't.


----------



## Morgante (Jul 26, 2012)

Catholics.
Orlando de Lassus.
Thomas Tallis.
Des Prez.
De Victoria.
Palestrina.
Gesualdo da Venosa.
Haydn.
Mozart.
Beethoven.
Mahler.
Berlioz.
Bruckner.
Cavalli.
Charpentier.
Elgar.
Dvorak.
Fauré.
Franck.
Gluck.
Liszt, Vivaldi and Perosi.
Monteverdi and Pergolesi.
Schubert, Salieri, Scarlatti and Stravinsky!
Von Weber. Messianen, Poulenc.

AND BACH.


----------



## BurningDesire (Jul 15, 2012)

violadude said:


> What? Which Christians are particularly similar to Marxists? Over here in 'merica they sure as hell aren't.


No, he's not saying they're like Marxists in terms of beliefs, he's saying they're like Marxists in terms of being hypocrits who claim to follow the ideology of somebody, but really don't, and are actually pretty ignorant of that person's ideas in many ways. I can't speak for the accuracy of this claim toward Marxists, but I know many Christians who fit this criticism.


----------



## Andreas (Apr 27, 2012)

BurningDesire said:


> No, he's not saying they're like Marxists in terms of beliefs, he's saying they're like Marxists in terms of being hypocrits who claim to follow the ideology of somebody, but really don't, and are actually pretty ignorant of that person's ideas in many ways. I can't speak for the accuracy of this claim toward Marxists, but I know many Christians who fit this criticism.


Exactly. Marx's general vision, I think, was (or entailed) the empowerment of the working class. But his name and his theories were hijacked in order to enslave millions in totalitarian regimes. And as for that man from Nazareth, he wanted to relieve the people of their fear and heal their souls. Yet the Roman Church in particular continues to propagate their ideas of deadly sins and eternal hell, putting even more fear in people's hearts.


----------



## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

Hilltroll72 said:


> Hey, thanks for the link, _Lunasong_. I'm going to give the work another go - if I can locate a recording with tolerable singers.


I'm going with the venerable Karl Richter/F-D/Stader recording. I can easily tolerate Stader.


----------



## Ramako (Apr 28, 2012)

Classical music's origins are Catholicism mixed with Secularism with a spicing of Protestantism. Protestantism became a larger influence over the next few centuries until the 20th century until we started getting all sorts of religions involved.

It is interesting to note that polyphony in its basic form is a product of popular music. The round etc. were fun things used in folk music. Catholic Church music adopted these practices (and developed them to a highly sophisticated form) and it was only later that they became the bastion of the contrapuntal style that we think of them as at the end of the Renaissance and Baroque eras.


----------



## Ramako (Apr 28, 2012)

Andreas said:


> Exactly. Marx's general vision, I think, was (or entailed) the empowerment of the working class. But his name and his theories were hijacked in order to enslave millions in totalitarian regimes. And as for that man from Nazareth, he wanted to relieve the people of their fear and heal their souls. Yet the Roman Church in particular continues to propagate their ideas of deadly sins and eternal hell, putting even more fear in people's hearts.


You should perhaps re-check the Bible before making sweeping statements about whole denominations like that, and more particularly about what Jesus 'wanted to do'. You may find it isn't quite as simple as you portray it. I agree that the Roman Church has a tendency to over-emphasize the judgmental aspect of things (and even to be dictatorial in some sense). But numbering them with a form of dictatorship like Soviet Russia is a very different thing altogether.


----------



## Ramako (Apr 28, 2012)

Manxfeeder said:


> Yeah. Catholicism_ is_ Christianity, but when they get dogmatic, like veneration of Mary and the saints, the primacy of the Pope, liturgical practices, sharp differences arise from "Christianity" in general.


What exactly constitutes "Christianity in general"?


----------



## violadude (May 2, 2011)

BurningDesire said:


> No, he's not saying they're like Marxists in terms of beliefs, he's saying they're like Marxists in terms of being hypocrits who claim to follow the ideology of somebody, but really don't, and are actually pretty ignorant of that person's ideas in many ways. I can't speak for the accuracy of this claim toward Marxists, but I know many Christians who fit this criticism.





Andreas said:


> Exactly. Marx's general vision, I think, was (or entailed) the empowerment of the working class. But his name and his theories were hijacked in order to enslave millions in totalitarian regimes. And as for that man from Nazareth, he wanted to relieve the people of their fear and heal their souls. Yet the Roman Church in particular continues to propagate their ideas of deadly sins and eternal hell, putting even more fear in people's hearts.


Oh, ya. That makes sense then.


----------



## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

Ramako said:


> What exactly constitutes "Christianity in general"?


Denominations and independent groups/associations which unite around Christianity and do not define themselves as Catholic.


----------



## Ramako (Apr 28, 2012)

Manxfeeder said:


> Denominations and independent groups/associations which unite around Christianity and do not define themselves as Catholic.


So your definition of "Christianity in general" is "all Christians but [Roman] Catholics"? Perhaps you are just trying to be pithy, but your meaning comes across as slightly ridiculous.

One assumes you just mean Protestants, but Protestantism isn't "Christianity in general". It is one part of "Christianity in general" just like Roman Catholicism. Some of the things you mention (e.g. veneration of the saints) are practiced by a greater number of Christians than object to them. In this sense they perhaps ought to define "Christianity in general" rather than be 'in sharp contrast' with it. Put this way, perhaps you would agree that these matters should be left out of an overarching definition of Christianity?


----------



## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

Ramako said:


> So your definition of "Christianity in general" is "all Christians but [Roman] Catholics"? Perhaps you are just trying to be pithy, but your meaning comes across as slightly ridiculous.
> 
> One assumes you just mean Protestants, but Protestantism isn't "Christianity in general".


I think you're reading too much into what I said. In general, Christianity believes in Jesus as the Christ. From there, there are doctrines and practices of different denominations which are distinctive. All these demoninations are generally Christian but all are not specifically Catholic or Baptist or Methodist or whatever.


----------



## Ramako (Apr 28, 2012)

Manxfeeder said:


> I think you're reading too much into what I said. In general, Christianity believes in Jesus as the Christ. From there, there are doctrines and practices of different denominations which are distinctive. All these demoninations are generally Christian but all are not specifically Catholic or Baptist or Methodist or whatever.


You're probably right. I'm just used to seeing an anti-Catholic attitude around such as effectively equates it as an evil force much like Naziism... I apologize. I was probably over-sensitive and read it into your posts.


----------



## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

Ramako said:


> You're probably right. I'm just used to seeing an anti-Catholic attitude around such as effectively equates it as an evil force much like Naziism... I apologize.


I hope I wasn't giving that impression. There are doctrines they espouse which I disagree with, but I can say that about just about any denomination. This doesn't call so much for separation as for dialogue.


----------



## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

Morgante said:


> Catholics.
> .......
> 
> AND BACH.


That's a joke, right? Because JS Bach is so Lutheran, that the spirit of the Reformation, with its intense personal dialogue with his God, breathes through every sacred work he wrote.


----------



## mud (May 17, 2012)

Vivaldi was a priest.


----------



## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

mud said:


> Vivaldi was a priest.


Il Prete Rosso ("The Red Priest") because of his red hair.


----------



## mud (May 17, 2012)

KenOC said:


> Il Prete Rosso ("The Red Priest") because of his red hair.


----------



## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

I'd add that since the Second Vatican Council (in the 1960's), mass in the Catholic church could be spoken/sung in the native language of a country (Latin as the 'universal' language of the church was abolished). So you get works like *Ariel Ramirez's *_Misa Criolla_ (in the ARgentinian dialect, incorporating Andean folk musics - a great piece, one of my favourites!), also *Durufle's *_Notre Pere _ (_The Lord's Prayer_ in French, not Latin), and works meant for concert performance like *David Fanshawe's* _African Sanctus _(which mixes African languages, the Latin and English - it reflects the ecumenical movement, bringing religions together, including the muezzin's call to prayer from Islamic tradition). But _The Lord's Prayer_ from that work is actually sung in some churches now.

The other thing is that no-one I can see here mentioned the *Anglican tradition*, which has bought much great music from composers like *Parry, Stanford *(who also wrote services in Latin, like his _Requiem_ on Naxos - another fav of mine), *Stainer's* _Crucifixion_, *Charles Wood's *_St. Mark Passion _(also on Naxos, sung in English, wonderful stuff). Its such a rich area and Australia is host to both these traditions, which have been present since colonisation of the country by the British in 1788.

But Australia has also been touched by Asian music, which includes sacred music. A number of our modern composers like Richard Meale and Peter Sculthorpe where fascinated by *gamelan from Indonesia, esp. Java and Bali. *Gamelan (percussion orchestra) music is used in religious ceremonies, including worship and celebrations of the life cycle. & also things like royal ocassions in old times. Some of it is purely instrumental and some of it involves singing/chant. Hujan Mas (Golden Rain) is one of the most popular pieces of gamelan music, but it is more a modern arrangement of 20th century origin, not traditional. Nevertheless the colour and rhythms in this had impact on Australian composers (as well as guys like Debussy earlier).

I strongly agree with the gist of Manxfeeder's comments, in terms of these religions not being monolithic and unchanging. & I am with people like Gandhi on relgions all having more things in common than differences. The Golden Rule (love thy neighbour) is a biggie. Gandhi was influenced by both the Hindu _Gita _as well as Christ's _Sermon on the Mount _and the Islamic _Koran_. He was thinking in terms of ecumenicism & relgious unity/harmony, so ahead of his time in some ways.


----------



## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

KenOC said:


> Il Prete Rosso ("The Red Priest") because of his red hair.


I think going into the preisthood was more of a career move than a vocation for Vivaldi - he even stopped celebrating masses quite soon after ordination, pleading ill-health as an excuse.


----------



## mud (May 17, 2012)

mamascarlatti said:


> I think going into the preisthood was more of a career move than a vocation for Vivaldi - he even stopped celebrating masses quite soon after ordination, pleading ill-health as an excuse.


Although sacred music was a vocation of his.


----------



## Lukecash12 (Sep 21, 2009)

Sid James said:


> I strongly agree with the gist of Manxfeeder's comments, in terms of these religions not being monolithic and unchanging. & I am with people like Gandhi on relgions all having more things in common than differences. The Golden Rule (love thy neighbour) is a biggie. Gandhi was influenced by both the Hindu _Gita _as well as Christ's _Sermon on the Mount _and the Islamic _Koran_. He was thinking in terms of ecumenicism & relgious unity/harmony, so ahead of his time in some ways.


Right, but religious folk don't just identify with each other and say that's that, because they have placed faith in ideas that are at several junctures mutually exclusive to those of other religions. That people today want to think of them more and more as the same, means that maybe people at large don't understand the import of the questions and answers given by each. We don't feel it's a matter of just choosing any faith, because that's tantamount pretty much to choosing a whole different version of reality. Granted, a lot of this has to do with social factors, the choices made between religions. But I think you can appreciate, Sid, that a lot of this postmodernist thinking and New Age thinking makes us feel trivialized (not sure what your views are, but I have an idea of what you can appreciate, I guess). It's nuts to us that in this day and age, an attitude of relativism towards religion actually seems like it has the status of "common sense" to many people today. They really do appeal to you like it's common sense. Wow. People finish listening to something that, IMO, oftentimes sounds half baked, and the sound of ideas like mine just makes their eyes roll. I must be a fool.

Speaking of gamelan music, the Javan variety is my favorite. And I agree about it's influence on Debussy. Scriabin had eastern influences as well, in both his music and philosophy. The two seem to have some similar ideas about what could be incorporated into the Western tradition from the East. And I'd really like to see more of that. Actually, I'd like to see it become something pervasive. It's cool to see Ravi Shankar and Phillip Glass working together, but I see so much more potential here. I can imagine tablas as an orchestral instrument. And I can imagine western music theory being used to make ragas. They can just throw the sheets out the window, and embrace the improvisational system of Indian classical music. Improvisation used to be fairly popular in classical music, and I'd like to see it make more of a comeback. These ideas from India of a pre-structured improvisation, sound just too good to pass up. Unlike free improv, I think it's something that can really gain traction, something that can turn into a tradition of it's own, like it already has.


----------



## Andreas (Apr 27, 2012)

Sid James said:


> I strongly agree with the gist of Manxfeeder's comments, in terms of these religions not being monolithic and unchanging. & I am with people like Gandhi on relgions all having more things in common than differences. The Golden Rule (love thy neighbour) is a biggie. Gandhi was influenced by both the Hindu _Gita _as well as Christ's _Sermon on the Mount _and the Islamic _Koran_. He was thinking in terms of ecumenicism & relgious unity/harmony, so ahead of his time in some ways.


If only people realized that "thy neighbour" does not just refer to people of one's own faith, but to everyone.

The Golden rule was later put in a philosophical dress by Immanual Kant, who said that one's actions should be motivated by morals that one would be willing to accept as universal laws.

German writer Rüdiger Safranski once pointed out that Nietzsche radicalized Kant's categorical imperative by combinig it with his, Nietzsche's, idea of history as the eternal recurrence of the ever same. One could put it this way: do only that which you would want to occur over and over again for all eternity.

Maybe this is streching it a little far, but I can't help but think of certain minimalist music, where chords or motifs are repeated seemingly ad infinitum. Or mantra-like. These chords or motifs have to be chosen so wisely and carefully, that one could not just tolerate but actually appreciate their eternal repetition.


----------



## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

Lukecash12 said:


> ...
> 
> Speaking of gamelan music, the Javan variety is my favorite...


To my ears, Javanese gamelan is more bright and loud, more dynamic contrast whereas Balinese is more subtle and nuanced, less 'in your face.' I'd also add that BAlinese are Hindu, Javanese are Muslim, yet that have gamelan in common.



Andreas said:


> If only people realized that "thy neighbour" does not just refer to people of one's own faith, but to everyone.
> 
> ....


Another way of putting _The Golden Rule_ is also 'do unto others as you would have them do unto you.' Which sounds like what you're saying about Kant. Gandhi found great inspiration from the _Sermon on the Mount_. I don't even know if he read the whole Bible, but in any case that bit inspired him for life. He certainly knew many aspects of Christianity though, and also of Islam & of course Hinduism and Sikhism. His concept of _Satyagraha_ (non violent opposition to injustice/oppression) grew from these things.

I have read/studied Kant but long ago. But it was related to aesthetics and not more practical philosophy. I might have to look at his stuff again.


----------



## Norse (May 10, 2010)

Morgante said:


> Catholics.
> Schubert, Salieri, Scarlatti and Stravinsky!


When was Stravinsky a catholic?


----------



## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

mud said:


> Although sacred music was a vocation of his.


You know, I get the impression that it was more a case of what was commissioned, for example for the coro of the Pietà to sing.

But opera, yes, that was a vocation. Years trailing around Italy persuading people to put on one of his 50 (that's how many have been identified, apparently, though he claimed 94) operas.


----------



## mud (May 17, 2012)

mamascarlatti said:


> You know, I get the impression that it was more a case of what was commissioned, for example for the coro of the Pietà to sing.
> 
> But opera, yes, that was a vocation. Years trailing around Italy persuading people to put on one of his 50 (that's how many have been identified, apparently, though he claimed 94) operas.


I was thinking that all of what he composed was his vocation, perhaps you meant his passion (while he certainly composed more concertos than anything). Although, I hear no less passion in his sacred works.


----------

