# Deciphering the Meanings of Jazz



## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

At its most inspired, is it unrefined? At its most refined, is it boring?


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## NoCoPilot (Nov 9, 2020)

There is no one type of "jazz" of course, but my first response to your "question" was this.

most music is written, or at least traditionally played the same way every time. Jazz is different. The musicians set up a rhythm, a beat, and after a brief introduction where they play the bones of a melody, each soloist is given an opportunity to improvise on the chords and rhythms of that song. In the end everybod6 comes together again and plays the melody again.

This is a very simplified explanation of only one type of be-bop, which is itself only one kind of jazz.

How "refined" it is depends on the players, their skill and knowledge of the music, and how much room they have to improvise. Some players, like Paul Desmond, could quote a dozen tunes in one solo, many of them having some reference in the title to the song they were soloing on. He was VERY refined, very inspired, and not at all boring. Like a dry martini.


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

I'm coming from this perspective:

The Jazz I find inspired, are the ones I find unique and interesting. Examples include, Sketches of Spain, In a Silent Way, Black Saint/Sinner Lady and etc. The ones I find mundane are the likes of Kind of Blue, A Love Supreme, Take Five, Pat Martino and etc.

From the ones I listed as inspired, you can see there is a deep sense of rustic grittiness to it that I find similarities to pop metal bands like Metallica. I relate that to being unrefined.

From the ones I listed as mundane, it is performed in a very sophisticated manner, but texturally is not very intriguing to my ears.

That is how I arrived at my conclusion in the OP.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

Pat Martino Live! is anything but mundane.


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

starthrower said:


> Pat Martino Live! is anything but mundane.



You can make that statement, but it isn't an interesting contribution to the thread. It is an opinion stated as a fact. Perhaps try to show an understanding of my perspective, then try to show me why your view is a meaningful to you and why you disagree with mine.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

No, it's my opinion. But many others feel the same. I've played guitar and I can hear how great Pat Matino is. Along with his band. But why are you disparaging great music? Calling A Love Supreme, and Kind Of Blue mundane is silly.


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

starthrower said:


> No, it's my opinion. But many others feel the same. I've played guitar and I can hear how great Pat Matino is. Along with his band. But why are you disparaging great music? Calling A Love Supreme, and Kind Of Blue mundane is silly.



I'm not disparaging it, I'm stating my opinion as you have. I prefer abstract music and feel abstract Jazz music is unrefined. Not that there is anything inherently wrong with that, it just doesn't appeal to me.


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## Bwv 1080 (Dec 31, 2018)

Not another ‘convince me that my half baked opinion that a bunch of great music is not crap’ thread. Don’t waste your time - you can’t convince someone that A Love Supreme is not mundane, it’s their loss


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

Bwv 1080 said:


> Not another ‘convince me that my half baked opinion that a bunch of great music is not crap’ thread. Don’t waste your time - you can’t convince someone that A Love Supreme is not mundane, it’s their loss


It's sophisticated, but I don't find it interesting. I'm not looking to be convinced, and I've spent quite a bit of time with these albums, but this is the recent conclusion I've come to, and it's my opinion and I think it's an insightful and innovative one.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

Captainnumber36 said:


> I'm not disparaging it, I'm stating my opinion as you have. I prefer abstract music and feel abstract Jazz music is unrefined. Not that there is anything inherently wrong with that, it just doesn't appeal to me.


But calling some jazz abstract is your opinion. Once you've spent enough time listening it's not abstract anymore. Mingus never sounds abstract to my ears. His music is visceral and highly emotional. I think you're more in the ball park with Sketches of Spain which is more unconventional in its harmony. But I wouldn't call it gritty sounding. And it is highly sophisticated.


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

starthrower said:


> But calling some jazz abstract is your opinion. Once you've spent enough time listening it's not abstract anymore. Mingus never sounds abstract to my ears. His music is visceral and highly emotional. I think you're more in the ball park with Sketches of Spain which is more unconventional in its harmony. But I wouldn't call it gritty sounding. And it is highly sophisticated.


I stated it as my opinion as well. I don't agree that spending more time with music makes it less abstract. What I define as Abstract Music, is the sonic atmosphere that is created (Bitches Brew is my go to example for this in Jazz).

Words need to be defined in the context speaking, because they can mean something so individual to someone.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

Music in general is defined as abstract art. We can't touch it or see it. But we can feel it. So I suppose we experience it in different degrees of abstraction? I don't think about this stuff when I'm listening. I just try to follow the music and hear what's going on.


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

starthrower said:


> Music in general is defined as abstract art. We can't touch it or see it. But we can feel it. So I suppose we experience it in different degrees of abstraction? I don't think about this stuff when I'm listening. I just try to follow the music and hear what's going on.


I think that's a good way to end this thread; stating how we experience and define our experience of musical art for ourselves is subjective. But, I enjoy thinking about how I experience musical art, and I still stand my conclusions in the OP but have understood yours too.


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## NoCoPilot (Nov 9, 2020)

Captainnumber36 said:


> The Jazz I find inspired, are the ones I find unique and interesting. Examples include, Sketches of Spain, In a Silent Way, Black Saint/Sinner Lady and etc. The ones I find mundane are the likes of Kind of Blue, A Love Supreme, Take Five, Pat Martino and etc.
> 
> From the ones I listed as inspired, you can see there is a deep sense of rustic grittiness to it that I find similarities to pop metal bands like Metallica. I relate that to being unrefined.


I think maybe your definition of "refined" has more to do with THE SOUND than THE PLAYING? Records with a harder edge, with more cutting instruments and more minor keys and more spiky rhythms, are ones you describe as "inspired" while the more polished sound -- smooth even rhythms, soft Rhodes piano, long steady state compositions -- you describe as mundane.

Your terminology is unorthodox, but I think there's a valid difference there.

Metallica is more than a stone's throw from Sketches of Spain, but I think I see what you were going for there.


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

NoCoPilot said:


> I think maybe your definition of "refined" has more to do with THE SOUND than THE PLAYING? Records with a harder edge, with more cutting instruments and more minor keys and more spiky rhythms, are ones you describe as "inspired" while the more polished sound -- smooth even rhythms, soft Rhodes piano, long steady state compositions -- you describe as mundane.
> 
> Your terminology is unorthodox, but I think there's a valid difference there.
> 
> Metallica is more than a stone's throw from Sketches of Spain, but I think I see what you were going for there.


It is the gritty sound I was comparing. And yes, you have shown depth of understanding of my position.


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

I'm about to make some statements that could be seen as offensive but think of them as sociological trends in psychological states of mind amongst the races. 

I think it's interesting to note, you don't see many minorities other than Africans in Jazz. I think minorities tend to be deep critical thinkers more so than their majority peers.

I think Jazz, when it was started by the African culture, was about freedom from slavery and finding a voice and musical art for themselves. I think that's it's spiritual energy in the examples I listed as inspired.

I think the ones I listed as mundane, are more about pleasing an upper class of predominantly Caucasian persons who, not unlike many Classical listeners, are there for the scene and to look intelligent.

To take this a step further into the Classical world, I feel Mozart and Bach serve a similar purpose, pleasing the upper class; that's it's spiritual energy.

This isn't to say Pat Martino, Bach and Mozart can't be genuinely enjoyed, they can, I just don't think it's often.

I think the energy I gravitate towards is that which I find inspired (the performance moves me), the piece is intriguing, unusual and abstract, by my definition of what that is that I have shown in this thread, and I see it as refined (it is sophisticated and classy by my standards).


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

All this being said, I think the Jazz/Fusion album I love is Head Hunters by Herbie.


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## Neo Romanza (May 7, 2013)

Captainnumber36 said:


> It's sophisticated, but I don't find it interesting. I'm not looking to be convinced, and I've spent quite a bit of time with these albums, but this is the recent conclusion I've come to, and it's my opinion and I think it's an insightful and innovative one.


You think your opinion is an "insightful" and "innovative" one? Boy, are full of ourselves or what?

Anyway, let's be honest here, you don't get jazz, you show no want or desire to understand it, so stop wasting your time and everyone else's with your own delusions.

It'll only be a matter of hours before you abandon this thread and start another one about jazz, so what's even the point of all this nonsense?


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## NoCoPilot (Nov 9, 2020)

Jazz is often described as the African-Americans' contribution to America's music. It certainly was birthed in African-American communities, although even early on musicians from outside that culture frequently joined in. One could speculate why it started there. It could be lack of access to formal music training, it could be a fondness for flouting WASP traditions, it could be an outgrowth of the Blues tradition. Books have been written.

Swing bands from between the World Wars were very sophisticated operating units, the technical equal of any classical music.

These days many of the most exciting jazz musicians are Asian. Why? No idea.


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

Neo Romanza said:


> You think your opinion is an "insightful" and "innovative" one? Boy, are full of ourselves or what?
> 
> Anyway, let's be honest here, you don't get jazz, you show no want or desire to understand it, so stop wasting your time and everyone else's with your own delusions.
> 
> It'll only be a matter of hours before you abandon this thread and start another one about jazz, so what's even the point of all this nonsense?


This post is reflective of insecurity and anger, and I will not entertain it with a thoughtful response other than to call it out for what it is.


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

NoCoPilot said:


> Jazz is often described as the African-Americans' contribution to America's music. It certainly was birthed in African-American communities, although even early on musicians from outside that culture frequently joined in. One could speculate why it started there. It could be lack of access to formal music training, it could be a fondness for flouting WASP traditions, it could be an outgrowth of the Blues tradition. Books have been written.
> 
> These days many of the most exciting jazz musicians are Asian. Why? No idea.


Who are some of these Asian Jazz players?


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## NoCoPilot (Nov 9, 2020)

Joey Alexander
Kazumi Watanabe
Hiromi Uehara

Many many others


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

NoCoPilot said:


> Joey Alexander
> Kazumi Watanabe
> Hiromi Uehara
> 
> Many many others


I enjoy "out there", clean and sophisticated music. Kazumi Watanabe fits that, so far at least. I'm listening to his Lonesome Cat.

Like Herbie's Thrust, Head Hunters and Sextant albums.


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## NoCoPilot (Nov 9, 2020)

Check out his Spice of Life and Spice of Life Too

What I like about Watanabe (and Uehara too) is that they don't just play warm-up exercises as solos. Unlike so many well-known (and for some reason *revered*) soloists.


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

NoCoPilot said:


> Check out his Spice of Life and Spice of Life Too
> 
> What I like about Watanabe (and Uehara too) is that they don't just play warm-up exercises as solos. Unlike so many well-known (and for some reason *revered*) soloists.


That's how I see Martino, and the speaking solos jumped out right away as great about Watanabe.


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

I think what I see as inspired is when an artist is really speaking and saying something. The musical language then that I enjoy hearing is that which is highly individual and can't be replicated, unforced, refined, clean and sophisticated.


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## NoCoPilot (Nov 9, 2020)

Scales, arpeggios and trills make up 80% of many famous soloists vocabulary


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

NoCoPilot said:


> Scales, arpeggios and trills make up 80% of many famous soloists vocabulary


One thing I always loved about Jerry Garcia of the Grateful Dead and Trey Anastasio of Phish is that they speak. But I don't care for their tones, or inconsistency.


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## NoCoPilot (Nov 9, 2020)

I don't know what "speak" means, but I know a good solo doesn't rely on too many repeated figures, it contains some melodic motion, it flows smoothly and it fits in with the tune being played.

Excellent example:


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

NoCoPilot said:


> I don't know what "speak" means, but I know a good solo doesn't rely on too many repeated figures, it contains some melodic motion, it flows smoothly and it fits in with the tune being played.
> 
> Excellent example:


It's weird you posted that video, because I put it on right before you posted it. What I mean by Speak is it says something rather than being a mere collection of notes. Miles spoke, I just didn't like what he had to say.


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## NoCoPilot (Nov 9, 2020)

I think -- my opinion -- the difference between "speaking" and "a collection of notes" is in the be-hearer.


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## NoCoPilot (Nov 9, 2020)

Paul Desmond speaks with his alto.


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

I liked it, but didn’t find it very original.


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

I didn’t like spice of life, the tone was too aggressive for me. I love smooth, original, sophisticated and moving music.


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

So far, Lonesome Cat was my favorite. But I don’t think it’s very original either.


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## NoCoPilot (Nov 9, 2020)

Tone too aggressive, yet you like Metallica. Huh. I need to think on this.


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## NoCoPilot (Nov 9, 2020)

starthrower said:


> No, it's my opinion. But many others feel the same.


I always get a chuckle when people use the popularity argument when discussing the veracity of opinions. At one time, everyone thought the Earth was flat. At one time everyone thought that Mars had canals. At one time everyone thought disease was caused by lack of religious faith.

Opinions are always just opinions, no matter how many people believe them.


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

I don’t like Metallica. I was using them as an example to relate the rougher sounds of the Jazz I found inspired to.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

NoCoPilot said:


> I always get a chuckle when people use the popularity argument when discussing the veracity of opinions. At one time, everyone thought the Earth was flat. At one time everyone thought that Mars had canals. At one time everyone thought disease was caused by lack of religious faith.
> 
> Opinions are always just opinions, no matter how many people believe them.


So are you trying to argue that at some point in the future it will be determined that the great artists mentioned here will be deemed musical hacks? Purveyors of the mundane? That everyone was wrong about Bach or Miles Davis? This is not the same as discovering one day that the world is a sphere. Pat Martino or any other musician playing at a high level of musicality is a fact. How is it determined at music schools whether a student passes or fails an audition to be admitted? They can either play at the required level or they can't. It's a fact that can be verified.


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## NoCoPilot (Nov 9, 2020)

Starthrower --> --> --> --> --> --> --> --> --> --> --> --> --> --> --> --> --> --> --> --> --> --> --> --> --> --> --> --> --> --> --> --> --> --> --> --> --> --> --> -->★

Point (∙)


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## Floeddie (8 mo ago)

Captainnumber36 said:


> At its most inspired, is it unrefined? At its most refined, is it boring?


neither of the above


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

If I’m being honest with myself, I enjoy the arts which tend to appeal to white audiences.


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## Floeddie (8 mo ago)

NoCoPilot said:


> Jazz is often described as the African-Americans' contribution to America's music. It certainly was birthed in African-American communities, although even early on musicians from outside that culture frequently joined in. One could speculate why it started there. It could be lack of access to formal music training, it could be a fondness for flouting WASP traditions, it could be an outgrowth of the Blues tradition. Books have been written.
> 
> Swing bands from between the World Wars were very sophisticated operating units, the technical equal of any classical music.
> 
> These days many of the most exciting jazz musicians are Asian. Why? No idea.


Jazz was being played by Caucasians very early on as well, as well were the Japanese, who are the quickest adopters of any music I ever witnessed. I really question the accuracy of Jazz being black, I think Jazz is universal, and as a Jazz musician I was taught to check my racial attitudes at the door, or not to proceed. Any generalization as to what a white guy playing jazz is about is ridiculous.


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## Floeddie (8 mo ago)

Captainnumber36 said:


> If I’m being honest with myself, I enjoy the arts which tend to appeal to white audiences.


At least you are honest.


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

starthrower said:


> So are you trying to argue that at some point in the future it will be determined that the great artists mentioned here will be deemed musical hacks? Purveyors of the mundane? That everyone was wrong about Bach or Miles Davis? This is not the same as discovering one day that the world is a sphere. Pat Martino or any other musician playing at a high level of musicality is a fact. How is it determined at music schools whether a student passes or fails an audition to be admitted? They can either play at the required level or they can't. It's a fact that can be verified.


Preferences are subjective.


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

Floeddie said:


> Jazz was being played by Caucasians very early on as well, as well were the Japanese, who are the quickest adopters of any music I ever witnessed. I really question the accuracy of Jazz being black, I think Jazz is universal, and as a Jazz musician I was taught to check my racial attitudes at the door, or not to proceed. Any generalization as to what a white guy playing jazz is about is ridiculous.


It’s Sociology and Psychology. You can find trends.


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## Floeddie (8 mo ago)

Captainnumber36 said:


> It’s Sociology and Psychology. You can find trends.


Generalizations are not truth.


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## Bwv 1080 (Dec 31, 2018)

Floeddie said:


> Jazz was being played by Caucasians very early on as well, as well were the Japanese, who are the quickest adopters of any music I ever witnessed. I really question the accuracy of Jazz being black, I think Jazz is universal, and as a Jazz musician I was taught to check my racial attitudes at the door, or not to proceed. Any generalization as to what a white guy playing jazz is about is ridiculous.


except for the fact that African American musicians created Jazz by fusing African ideas of rhythm, melody, phrasing and harmony with European traditions. Jazz later became universal, but no more than Hip Hop is today where you have, say, Chinese and Russian rappers


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## Floeddie (8 mo ago)

This may seem off topic, but it isn't. In the Korean War, the Chinese brainwashed the captured Western soldier (US, etc) into converting to Socialism. They did it by teaching American history. They didn't need to lie.

I postulate that we are all brainwashed in one way or another. It is unavoidable as it is a basic human condition. The whole discussion going on here is based upon preconception. No one ever gets the full picture. Selective perception plays into it. Not me and not y'all. See ya!


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## NoCoPilot (Nov 9, 2020)

Floeddie said:


> They did it by teaching American history. They didn't need to lie.


Perhaps that's why some states are so against teaching American history?

"Brainwashing" is a bit of a strong term, but it's certainly true that "the victors write the history books" and what we've all been taught "ain't necessarily so" (viz. Howard Zinn).


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## NoCoPilot (Nov 9, 2020)

Captainnumber36 said:


> If I’m being honest with myself, I enjoy the arts which tend to appeal to white audiences.


Last year I discovered a pre-existing station on Pandora called "Acoustic Africa." It has dozens, hundreds of musicians from across the African continent playing mostly-acoustic music on such instruments as kora, marimba, kalimba (thumb piano) and others. The African traditions are foreign to Western ears. When there's rhythm, the emphasis is on the 2 and 4 beats rather than the 1 and 3 as in our tradition. Much of the music has a very languid sense of time, with long pieces without much harmonic movement. There is a consistent African tradition shared by almost all the pieces I've heard -- and I've been listening to this channel for hundreds of hours -- but it requires you re-orient your headspace.

Here's a representative sample.


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## Bwv 1080 (Dec 31, 2018)

NoCoPilot said:


> Last year I discovered a pre-existing station on Pandora called "Acoustic Africa." It has dozens, hundreds of musicians from across the African continent playing mostly-acoustic music on such instruments as kora, marimba, kalimba (thumb piano) and others. The African traditions are foreign to Western ears. When there's rhythm, the emphasis is on the 2 and 4 beats rather than the 1 and 3 as in our tradition. Much of the music has a very languid sense of time, with long pieces without much harmonic movement. There is a consistent African tradition shared by almost all the pieces I've heard -- and I've been listening to this channel for hundreds of hours -- but it requires you re-orient your headspace.
> 
> Here's a representative sample.


Great stuff

and it’s hard to parse influences, as music from the Americas heavily influenced the African music of the past century - Ali Farka Toure, for example, grew up listening to John Lee Hooker and other American bluesmen. The British and French colonial rulers also recruited Africans to play in military bands, which influenced traditions like Highlife in Ghana.

there are field recordings of more traditional African music more like this





Which is incredibly rich stuff, and likely similar to the traditions that enslaved Africans brought over with them.


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## NoCoPilot (Nov 9, 2020)

Exactly. African culture goes back thousands of years, as does Chinese culture, and we Westerners only hear the Sweet & Sour Pork of it.

Another album that grows in stature every time I play it:


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## NoCoPilot (Nov 9, 2020)

Bwv 1080 said:


> Which is incredibly rich stuff, and likely similar to the traditions that enslaved Africans brought over with them.


I don't know how much jazz really has any African influence. Slaves brought over during the 18th & 19th Centuries were mostly separated from their cultures, thrown together with people of other cultures, and then by the mid-18th Century the vast majority of slaves had been born here (because it was cheaper to breed slaves than to import them). There's an incredibly deep tradition of African work songs, based on oral traditions and church hymns, but jazz is much more secular.

The general consensus seems to be that jazz appeared in the 1920s as a combination of African field chants from the Antebellum period combined with Western military music gleaned during service in WWI. 

Who knows? It's a mystery.


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## Bwv 1080 (Dec 31, 2018)

NoCoPilot said:


> I don't know how much jazz really has any African influence. Slaves brought over during the 18th & 19th Centuries were mostly separated from their cultures, thrown together with people of other cultures, and then by the mid-18th Century the vast majority of slaves had been born here. There's an incredibly deep tradition of African work songs, based on oral traditions and church hymns, but jazz is much more secular.
> 
> The general consensus seems to be that jazz appeared in the 1920s as a combination of African field chants from the Antebellum period combined with Western military music gleaned during service in WWI.
> 
> Who knows? It's a mystery.


Takes cojones to claim something a mystery that you expend no effort to learn about - the influence has been well documented
for example


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## NoCoPilot (Nov 9, 2020)

It's a mystery because Charlie Parker -- born in 1920 -- was three generations removed from slavery, and had no more exposure to West African clavé music than you or me. Any "African jazz apologist" who claims otherwise is using cultural ethnocentrism.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

Captainnumber36 said:


> Preferences are subjective.


Sure, but labeling an artist who plays at a very high level as mundane is a cheap shot. Whats your point?


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## NoCoPilot (Nov 9, 2020)

He's using "mundane" in a way different from what you're thinking. Instead of "mundane" read it as "conventional."


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## Bwv 1080 (Dec 31, 2018)

NoCoPilot said:


> It's a mystery because Charlie Parker -- born in 1920 -- was three generations removed from slavery, and had no more exposure to West African clavé music than you or me. Any "African jazz apologist" who claims otherwise is using cultural ethnocentrism.


Lol, you don’t even know what a clave is, and are making up terms like “African jazz apologist” - what the hell is that supposed to mean. 
Jazz existed before Charlie Parker, and yes, one can find clave in Bebop


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## NoCoPilot (Nov 9, 2020)

LOL, you're confusing the percussion instrument with the technical rhythm term.


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## Bwv 1080 (Dec 31, 2018)

NoCoPilot said:


> LOL, you're confusing the percussion instrument with the technical rhythm term.


So you just googled to find the difference?
No, I am not


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## NoCoPilot (Nov 9, 2020)

20 minutes with a white guy who admits upfront that he's not any kind of expert on jazz? Nein danke. Clavé rhythms are endemic to Afro-Caribbean music like Cuban (Son, Rhumba, Conga, Mani, Bembe), Samba, Reggae, Salsa, Calypso, Merengue, Soca, etc. Although there is some jazz, a lot of jazz (Bossa Nova anyone?) with those influences, it is not all there is to jazz.

This video seems a bit more competently researched.


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## Bwv 1080 (Dec 31, 2018)

NoCoPilot said:


> 20 minutes with a white guy who admits upfront that he's not any kind of expert on jazz? Nein danke. Clavé rhythms are endemic to Afro-Caribbean music like Cuban (Son, Rhumba, Conga, Mani, Bembe), Samba, Reggae, Salsa, Calypso, Merengue, Soca, etc. Although there is some jazz, a lot of jazz (Bossa Nova anyone?) with those influences, it is not all there is to jazz.
> 
> This video seems a bit more competently researched.


great, now that you have educated yourself on the concept of clave,go back and check out the first videos I posted which trace it from Africa through the Caribbean to Ragtime and New Orleans Jazz*, *solving one part of the ‘great mystery’ of whether Jazz possesses African influences


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

Floeddie said:


> Generalizations are not truth.


Right, and as I stated, they are TRENDS. That's the point of Sociology.


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## NoCoPilot (Nov 9, 2020)

BWV, your confrontational style disguises the fact that we don't really have disagreements. Be-bop was a lot more than West African clavé music, and subsequent developments in jazz moved it even further from traditional African music. Miles Davis's dad was a dentist. Do you think his education was based on slave songs?

No, I didn't think so.

Captainnumber36's original question was about "refinement" in jazz, and whether musicians with formal education were inherently less exciting. Let's stick to that discussion.


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

NoCoPilot said:


> BWV, your confrontational style disguises the fact that we don't really have disagreements. Be-bop was a lot more than West African clavé music, and subsequent developments in jazz moved it even further from traditional African music. Miles Davis's dad was a dentist. Do you think his education was based on slave songs?
> 
> No, I didn't think so.
> 
> Captainnumber36's original question was about "refinement" in jazz, and whether musicians with formal education were inherently less exciting. Let's stick to that discussion.


And I've come to the conclusion that this appraisal of mundane and exciting is 100% subjective. I also admit that I tend to appreciate the Pat Martino's, Bach's and Mozart's; what tends to appeal to upper class Caucasian audiences, and now see nothing wrong with that. But I understand what that implies, and respect African American communities for paving the way for this music.


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## NoCoPilot (Nov 9, 2020)

Captainnumber36 said:


> ; what tends to appeal to upper class Caucasian audiences, and now see nothing wrong with that.


I think it broadens the mind to delve into other traditions besides white upper class Caucasian. There are millennia of cultures in China and Africa (and elsewhere of course) and working to appreciate (if not understand) them makes one better able to appreciate the blinkers of white middle class Caucasian culture.

I still don't get the appeal of rap though.


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

NoCoPilot said:


> I think it broadens the mind to delve into other traditions besides white upper class Caucasian. There are millennia of cultures in China and Africa (and elsewhere of course) and working to appreciate (if not understand) them makes one better able to appreciate the blinkers of white middle class Caucasian culture.
> 
> I still don't get the appeal of rap though.


And I have exposed myself to a lot of different art over the cultures, especially being first generation Sri Lankan-American and hearing the music of Bollywood and Classical Indian traditions.

But, now I'm interested in finding out what really appeals to me. But I won't stop looking into things that don't appeal to me, just for the exposure, but not as often.

Rap is about the thumping bass hooks and lyrical content. I really enjoy melody, so it doesn't appeal to me.


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## NoCoPilot (Nov 9, 2020)

There have been quite a few classical musicians who have attempted to do jazz. Few of them attained any success.

The Berkeley School of Music turns out graduates every year, and they're competent as sidemen and band members. Few go on to break the rules and reshape music though.

There's a saying, somewhere, that progress is made only by people who break the rules.


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

Aren't all adjectives emotional value judgements? Mundane and exciting would then certainly be subjective, emotionally based, value descriptors.


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

NoCoPilot said:


> There have been quite a few classical musicians who have attempted to do jazz. Few of them attained any success.
> 
> The Berkeley School of Music turns out graduates every year, and they're competent as sidemen and band members. Few go on to break the rules and reshape music though.
> 
> There's a saying, somewhere, that progress is made only by people who break the rules.


And I think progress isn't necessarily what everyone wants to achieve, and isn't necessarily objectively good or bad. It's just another way of explaining trends in items.


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## NoCoPilot (Nov 9, 2020)

True. Not everyone needs to be groundbreaking.


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## Denerah Bathory (6 mo ago)

Captainnumber36 said:


> If I’m being honest with myself, I enjoy the arts which tend to appeal to white audiences.


Same here, love my European heritage!


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## Neo Romanza (May 7, 2013)

Captainnumber36 said:


> This post is reflective of insecurity and anger, and I will not entertain it with a thoughtful response other than to call it out for what it is.


Insecurity and anger? No, again, those are your own delusions. I called you out and, as I said, you will abandon this thread like you have done the other hundreds of threads you've created at this juncture.


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## Neo Romanza (May 7, 2013)

Denerah Bathory said:


> Same here, love my European heritage!


I love my European heritage, too, but this doesn't mean I can't branch out and explore other cultures and be inspired by the music that resonates with me. Music that means something to you doesn't have a race, gender, etc. This is just my own perspective.


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## Denerah Bathory (6 mo ago)

Neo Romanza said:


> I love my European heritage, too, but this doesn't mean I can't branch out and explore other cultures and be inspired by the music that resonates with me. Music that means something to you doesn't have a race, gender, etc. This is just my own perspective.


Well it so happens that jazz doesn't resonate with me, I prefer structured compositions and orchestral timbre. In fact, most North American culture doesn't resonate with me, so that includes country, blues, and pop music by default. Even when I am not listening to classical, I tend to indulge in British heavy metal, or progressive rock.


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## Neo Romanza (May 7, 2013)

Denerah Bathory said:


> Well it so happens that jazz doesn't resonate with me, I prefer structured compositions and orchestral timbre. In fact, most North American culture doesn't resonate with me, so that includes country, blues, and pop music by default. Even when I am not listening to classical, I tend to indulge in British heavy metal, or progressive rock.


Oh well, we like what we like, but my point still stands that music that you like has no race, sex et. al. It's the music that matters. Anyone who refutes this clearly doesn't understand this idea. Classical, jazz and rock are what resonate with me. Never cared for metal (of any variety). In fact, I pretty much loathe metal in general. Knuckle-dragging, thoughtless music.


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## Denerah Bathory (6 mo ago)

Neo Romanza said:


> Oh well, we like what we like, but my point still stands that music that you like has no race, sex et. al. It's the music that matters. Anyone who refutes this clearly doesn't understand this idea. Classical, jazz and rock are what resonate with me. Never cared for metal (of any variety). In fact, I pretty much loathe metal in general. Knuckle-dragging, thoughtless music.


Perhaps music isn't tied to race, however, we cannot ignore the fact that we have cultural preferences and some forms of music that have lyrical content speak of cultural preferences or some sort of experience I do not relate to.

The very subculture and subsequent aesthetic of jazz, or the political nonsense of folk and punk rock, is enough to turn me off. I am not into parties and debauchery nor anarchism spawned by naive readings of Karl Marx. I can even picture the typical folk fan base as vegan, gluten free with posters of Chairman Mao adorning their bedroom walls.


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## Neo Romanza (May 7, 2013)

Denerah Bathory said:


> Perhaps music isn't tied to race, however, we cannot ignore the fact that we have cultural preferences and some forms of music that have lyrical content speak of cultural preferences or some sort of experience I do not relate to.
> 
> The very subculture and subsequent aesthetic of jazz, or the political nonsense of folk and punk rock, is enough to turn me off. I am not into parties and debauchery nor anarchism spawned by naive readings of Karl Marx. I can even picture the typical folk fan base as vegan, gluten free with posters of Chairman Mao adorning their bedroom walls.


Perhaps for you, it's not easy to ignore, but if a piece of music touches my heart, then it doesn't matter what it's cultural significance is to me. The music is all the matters to me not the philosophy or political message behind it. Jazz isn't for everyone, but thankfully it is for me!


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## Denerah Bathory (6 mo ago)

Neo Romanza said:


> Perhaps for you, it's not easy to ignore, but if a piece of music touches my heart, then it doesn't matter what it's cultural significance is to me. The music is all the matters to me not the philosophy or political message behind it. Jazz isn't for everyone, but thankfully it is for me!


The music is what matters, and hence why I prefer instrumental works, or opera where it is a story set to music and it is like a musical novel.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

NoCoPilot said:


> He's using "mundane" in a way different from what you're thinking. Instead of "mundane" read it as "conventional."


I don't know what that's supposed to mean? Is A Love Supreme conventional? And Pat Martino? I've never heard anyone else who sounds like him.


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## NoCoPilot (Nov 9, 2020)

Denerah Bathory said:


> . I can even picture the typical folk fan base as vegan, gluten free with posters of Chairman Mao adorning their bedroom walls.


More likely Hugo Chavez than Chairman Mao... but then I guess we can't expect you to know that.


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## NoCoPilot (Nov 9, 2020)

starthrower said:


> I don't know ...
> I've never heard ...


That doesn't make him wrong.


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## Neo Romanza (May 7, 2013)

NoCoPilot said:


> That doesn't make him wrong.





NoCoPilot said:


> That doesn't make him wrong.


Nor does it make him right. He's just another person with an opinion. I'm no fan of Pat Martino, but will point out that he was a masterful guitarist. Anyone who would refute that aren't using their ears.


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## NoCoPilot (Nov 9, 2020)

Neo Romanza said:


> Nor does it make him right. He's just another person with an opinion. I'm no fan of Pat Martino, but will point out that he was a masterful guitarist. Anyone who would refute that aren't using their ears.


I don't think the Captain would dispute that. He was just saying his mastery was within the bounds of normal virtuosity.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

Virtuosity is not normal. It's exceptional.


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## Neo Romanza (May 7, 2013)

NoCoPilot said:


> I don't think the Captain would dispute that. He was just saying his mastery was within the bounds of normal virtuosity.


"Normal virtuosity". This makes zero sense to me. If something is virtuosic, it means it's _not_ normal and it is extraordinary.


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

Neo Romanza said:


> Oh well, we like what we like, but my point still stands that music that you like has no race, sex et. al. It's the music that matters. Anyone who refutes this clearly doesn't understand this idea. Classical, jazz and rock are what resonate with me. Never cared for metal (of any variety). In fact, I pretty much loathe metal in general. Knuckle-dragging, thoughtless music.


Sociology are trends, and you have shown an understanding of that in your last statement here of metal typically being rudimentary lyrically.

Ever tried TOOL?


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

Neo Romanza said:


> "Normal virtuosity". This makes zero sense to me. If something is virtuosic, it means it's _not_ normal and it is extraordinary.


You are very stuck in your definitions of your terms. I think it would benefit you to try to understand other's definitions so you can form better arguments rather than opinion statements that what you prefer is certainly great and anything else, is subpar.


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## NoCoPilot (Nov 9, 2020)

I suspect he's being intentionally hyperbolic.


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

NoCoPilot said:


> I suspect he's being intentionally hyperbolic.


I interpreted it as authentic, but perhaps.


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## Neo Romanza (May 7, 2013)

Captainnumber36 said:


> Sociology are trends, and you have shown an understanding of that in your last statement here of metal typically being rudimentary lyrically.
> 
> Ever tried TOOL?





Captainnumber36 said:


> You are very stuck in your definitions of your terms. I think it would benefit you to try to understand other's definitions so you can form better arguments rather than opinion statements that what you prefer is certainly great and anything else, is subpar.


Okay, what you're implying is you can write whatever you want and the minute someone calls you out on what you've written, _they're_ the ones who don't understand what you're talking about. Oh, I understand fully well what you're talking about, it's just that you're not talking about anything and have continuously tried to paint yourself as someone with a vast well of knowledge when all I see is someone masquerading around who believes their opinion is somehow important. As I said, you don't get jazz, you show no intentions of getting it, so you, basically, have used this thread to talk disparagingly about it instead of actually proving to people here that you want to understand it. Each time someone suggests something to you, you critique it or put it down. Sorry, but you've proven yourself nothing more than a troll with some kind of axe to grind.


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## Neo Romanza (May 7, 2013)

starthrower said:


> No, it's my opinion. But many others feel the same. I've played guitar and I can hear how great Pat Matino is. Along with his band. But why are you disparaging great music? Calling A Love Supreme, and Kind Of Blue mundane is silly.


This is exactly what is wrong with this thread. No matter what response you give the OP, he'll find a way to twist it to suit his own agenda, which seems to be to dump on music that he doesn't like.


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

Neo Romanza said:


> Okay, what you're implying is you can write whatever you want and the minute someone calls you out on what you've written, _they're_ the ones who don't understand what you're talking about. Oh, I understand fully well what you're talking about, it's just that you're not talking about anything and have continuously tried to paint yourself as someone with a vast well of knowledge when all I see is someone masquerading around who believes their opinion is somehow important. As I said, you don't get jazz, you show no intentions of getting it, so you, basically, have used this thread to talk disparagingly about it instead of actually proving to people here that you want to understand it. Each time someone suggests something to you, you critique it or put it down. Sorry, but you've proven yourself nothing more than a troll with some kind of axe to grind.


Now who's the troll! 

But, my initial question revealed an interesting dichotomy in Jazz between the more adventurous in sonic atmosphere, and the more adventurous in technical prowess showcasing great knowledge of musical theory. I tend to scoff at theoretically adventurous art in general, finding more attachment to the MORE emotionally driven examples. That's not to say theoretical music doesn't have emotional energy, I just don't find it as individualized to the artists emotional self.

I do have a bad habit of critiquing when creating these "show me something threads", but it's all in the push to discover what it is I find interesting in art.

I posted in another thread I made, that I believe I am somewhat over music for now, and my favorite musical artwork is the song Esther by the band Phish. You will see just how much of the artist's emotions are displayed in the instrumental composition of the song, and the lyrical content displays a creative story, almost a child's Halloween tale, which showcases the artist's love of storytelling. It is easy to be moved spiritually by both the music and lyrics, if this style of highly emotive musical art appeals to you. I think it's absolutely brilliant.

Here it is:

(68) Esther - YouTube


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## Neo Romanza (May 7, 2013)

Captainnumber36 said:


> Now who's the troll!
> 
> But, my initial question revealed an interesting dichotomy in Jazz between the more adventurous in sonic atmosphere, and the more adventurous in technical prowess showcasing great knowledge of musical theory. I tend to scoff at theoretically adventurous art in general, finding more attachment to the MORE emotionally driven examples. That's not to say theoretical music doesn't have emotional energy, I just don't find it as individualized to the artists emotional self.
> 
> ...


Sorry, I'm not a fan of Phish, so I won't be listening to this example. They're just not my cup of tea. Tremendous musicianship in this band, though. No question about that.


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

Neo Romanza said:


> Sorry, I'm not a fan of Phish, so I won't be listening to this example. They're just not my cup of tea. Tremendous musicianship in this band, though. No question about that.


I would suggest giving it a try if you like your art highly creative.


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## Neo Romanza (May 7, 2013)

Captainnumber36 said:


> I would suggest giving it a try if you like your art creative.


I've heard several of Phish's albums many years ago as I became curious about them, but they don't do anything for emotionally or intellectually.


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

It's just that, after the first four albums, they became more conventional so you may be missing out on some of their more adventurous work.

Junta is their Progressive Rock album, and the song I posted is an example from that.


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## Neo Romanza (May 7, 2013)

Captainnumber36 said:


> It's just that, after the first four albums, they became more conventional so you may be missing out on some of their more adventurous work.
> 
> Junta is their Progressive Rock album, and the song I posted is an example from that.


I'm not missing out on anything. You seem like you just don't want to accept my opinion and leave it at that. We all like different kinds of music and Phish just aren't to my liking. Your incessant pushing into getting me to listen to a band I've already heard and disliked, isn't working.

So, I suggest we try and find some common ground instead. What's your opinion of Herbie Hancock's discography? Any favorite albums?


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

To be honest, I think he tends to set up a great end and beginning, especially on his fusion albums, but I usually find his soloing too technical.


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## Neo Romanza (May 7, 2013)

Captainnumber36 said:


> I love Sextant. I find the sonic atmosphere created on this album to be intoxicating and it creates a very visual experience for me. That's really what I look for, is to be moved emotionally and have a strong visual experience with the music, or any art.


Oh, that's an excellent album! I tend to like Hancock's earlier work the best (his earlier Columbia albums all the way back to his Warner and Blue Note albums), but I admire his adventurous spirit and tenacity to try new things. He's made several vocal albums that I care nothing about, but interspersed between these albums there's always something fascinating to hear. Since you like _Sextant_, I would suggest giving a listen to (if you haven't already) _Crossings_ and _Mwandishi_, but if you don't mind a bit more jazz funk, then _Fat Albert Rotunda_ is quite good, too. _The Prisoner_ is another standout in his discography for me. Of course, I love the more post-bop albums, too, like _Maiden Voyage_, _Empyrean Isles_ and _Speak Like a Child_. Also, his live album _Flood_ is top-notch.


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## Neo Romanza (May 7, 2013)

Captainnumber36 said:


> To be honest, I think he tends to set up a great end and beginning, especially on his fusion albums, but I usually find his soloing too technical.


Hancock's improvisations are "too technical" but also Miles Davis' _Kind of Blue_ and Coltrane's _A Love Supreme_ are "mundane". For crying out loud, there's just no way to figure what the hell you even like, which brings me back to my point: if you don't like jazz or don't want to try and understand it, then you shouldn't start threads about it. No one can convince you of the merits of jazz music, this is something you have to come to terms with yourself.


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

Neo Romanza said:


> Hancock's improvisations are "too technical" but also Miles Davis' _Kind of Blue_ and Coltrane's _A Love Supreme_ are "mundane". For crying out loud, there's just no way to figure what the hell you even like, which brings me back to my point: if you don't like jazz or don't want to try and understand it, then you shouldn't start threads about it.


I started it to show an interesting dichotomy in Jazz and to showcase what those dichotomies stand for in terms of values, culturally and emotionally.

I have listened to plenty of Jazz, but I don't really like what I've heard.

I think I found the proper criteria for my evaluation of art:

1. Do I find it emotionally moving?
2. Do I like the world being created? (Worlds I tend to enjoy are ones I find to be visual and "Fun", "Brooding", "Assertive" and "Trippy").


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## Neo Romanza (May 7, 2013)

Captainnumber36 said:


> I have listened to plenty of Jazz, but I don't really like what I've heard.


Okay, so you proved my point. You don't want to talk about jazz in any kind of way that will improve your understanding of it and inspire you to listen to it with an open-mind, you just want to complain about it and hope others will join in on your dumping party. Gotcha.

Also, the fact that you have criteria for enjoying art within itself has kept you at a distance from enjoying a genre that actually may win you over.


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

Neo Romanza said:


> Okay, so you proved my point. You don't want to talk about jazz in any kind of way that will improve your understanding of it and inspire you to listen to it with an open-mind, you just want to complain about it and hope others will join in on your dumping party. Gotcha.


That's a way to put it. But, I have made some interesting insights and points, imo at least. They at least help me understand my unique perspective towards it.


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## Neo Romanza (May 7, 2013)

Captainnumber36 said:


> That's a way to put it. But, I have made some interesting insights and points, imo at least. They at least help me understand my unique perspective towards it.


There's nothing unique about your perspective. It's just an opinion like everyone else has --- no big deal.


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

Ok. Bye.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

The one truism this thread has brought to light is that there is no accounting for taste. But it's good to know there are some jazz fans at TC. I have quite a few Herbie Hancock albums but I never felt like he sacrificed musicality or invention in favor of technical displays. But we all hear music differently. And I don't play piano so maybe the Captain can hear things in his playing that I can't hear?


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

As regards the band Phish - is there not an extraneous letter ‘h’?(for my British readers😂)


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## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

starthrower said:


> I have quite a few Herbie Hancock albums but I never felt like he sacrificed musicality or invention in favor of technical displays.


I agree with you, but I had to smile at your comment, because once at the Playboy Jazz Festival I saw Herbie Hancock and Chick Corea together on stage in a play-off. Leonard Feather later commented, "Fingers, don't fail me now." 

Of course, in that case, it was either keep up with the piano player in front of you or stare drooling at the insanely beautiful women in the front row sitting next to Hugh Hefner.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

I was never attracted to the two piano format so I didn't listen to the Chick and Herbie album. It just seemed like too much. I prefer to listen to them separately.


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## Neo Romanza (May 7, 2013)

starthrower said:


> I was never attracted to the two piano format so I didn't listen to the Chick and Herbie album. It just seemed like too much. I prefer to listen to them separately.


Absolutely. Too much of a good thing.


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

Neo Romanza said:


> Absolutely. Too much of a good thing.


And you call yourself a jazz fan? Hah!😂😎


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## Neo Romanza (May 7, 2013)

Barbebleu said:


> And you call yourself a jazz fan? Hah!😂😎


Well, I'm not interested in hearing two jazz pianists play together. I own the album in question, but it was a part of a box set I bought and I haven't had any itch to even listen to it.


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

Neo Romanza said:


> Well, I'm not interested in hearing two jazz pianists play together. I own the album in question, but it was a part of a box set I bought and I haven't had any itch to even listen to it.


Why is that? They are both masters of their craft and they combine tremendously well. I have both of their albums and they are equally excellent or, if you don’t like them, appalling!😇


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## Neo Romanza (May 7, 2013)

Barbebleu said:


> Why is that? They are both masters of their craft and they combine tremendously well. I have both of their albums and they are equally excellent or, if you don’t like them, appalling!😇


Well, sure they're both incredible and love both of them dearly, but this doesn't mean I want to hear them together. I'm more interested in solo piano than piano duo. I just have no interest in hearing them together. Sorry, but not sorry.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

Barbebleu said:


> And you call yourself a jazz fan? Hah!😂😎


Says the man who doesn't consider vocal greats like Ella, or Sarah to be jazz performers. And how about Pops Armstrong?


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

Touché. A hit, a palpable hit!

And they are vocal greats without question and Armstrong was a great jazz trumpeter. And the jazz ‘vocal’ thing is without a doubt my own problem. But it is what it is.


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## Neo Romanza (May 7, 2013)

The bottomline to all of this is pretty simple: we all like what we like and are moved by different things. Some people hear greatness in Louis Armstrong while some others do not (this would definitely be me --- never did like him or much early jazz). I certainly acknowledge his influence, but I've gone my whole life with no desire to hear any of his music and I feel as though I'm not missing out on anything.


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

starthrower said:


> The one truism this thread has brought to light is that there is no accounting for taste. But it's good to know there are some jazz fans at TC. I have quite a few Herbie Hancock albums but I never felt like he sacrificed musicality or invention in favor of technical displays. But we all hear music differently. And I don't play piano so maybe the Captain can hear things in his playing that I can't hear?


I think we are all moved by different things. My favorite Jazz pianists are Peterson/Garland; at least when it comes to soloing. But I Find them poppier, for the Jazz world.

I do love Keith Jarrett for his solo all improvised shows. It moves me, I find it individualized and I love the world it creates.

I feel Herbie appeals to theoretical fans of music, not unlike Bach.


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## Floeddie (8 mo ago)

I too like Peterson, but that's not all I like. Peterson plays well, he's melodic, but not atonally at all. Peterson is the Budweiser of beer... on rare occasion I will drink one and even like it. There is none in my refrigerator. But I do have a few Oscar albums, and every now and then I'll listen. Peterson appeals to the masses in a very big way. I'd call him soft pop jazz.


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## Neo Romanza (May 7, 2013)

Captainnumber36 said:


> I think we are all moved by different things. My favorite Jazz pianists are Peterson/Garland; at least when it comes to soloing. But I Find them poppier, for the Jazz world.
> 
> I do love Keith Jarrett for his solo all improvised shows. It moves me, I find it individualized and I love the world it creates.
> 
> I feel Herbie appeals to theoretical fans of music, not unlike Bach.


Red Garland and Oscar Peterson are great, but Jarrett and Hancock have my heart. And, no, Herbie Hanock appeals to people who like the kind of music he creates, because it resonates with them. This includes his marvelous improvisations, which are beautiful and full of life.

For me, _Jessica_ is a perfect example of Hancock's beautiful lyricism:






This piece was written for his daughter.


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## Floeddie (8 mo ago)

Neo Romanza said:


> Red Garland and Oscar Peterson are great, but Jarrett and Hancock have my heart. And, no, Herbie Hanock appeals to people who like the kind of music he creates, because it resonates with them. This includes his marvelous improvisations, which are beautiful and full of life.
> 
> For me, _Jessica_ is a perfect example of Hancock's beautiful lyricism:
> 
> ...


Excellent, lyrical, subtly harmonic, meandering in a mellow way, indirectly, as life actually is. I think I will go get this album. I'm floored by the date 1969. Nothing soft about the full album, it's jammin' man! 

I was busy with Led Zeppelin, Jimi, and Janis about then. I've missed out. Thank you for posting.


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## Neo Romanza (May 7, 2013)

Floeddie said:


> Excellent, lyrical, subtly harmonic, meandering in a mellow way, indirectly, as life actually is. I think I will go get this album. I'm floored by the date 1969. Nothing soft about the full album, it's jammin' man!
> 
> I was busy with Led Zeppelin, Jimi, and Janis about then. I've missed out. Thank you for posting.


You're welcome! Yeah, most of this album is jazz-funk, but if you haven't heard _Crossings_ or _Mwandishi_, then please do so! I think you'll enjoy them, especially if you liked his first Columbia album _Sextet_. Basically, I look at these albums as extensions of Miles' _Bitches Brew_, but with more atmosphere and textures.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

Captainnumber36 said:


> I feel Herbie appeals to theoretical fans of music, not unlike Bach.


I think he has that side of him as many of his solos sound very logical to my ears. But to me he also has a soulful side as well. Listen to his playing on the Metheny tune, John McKee. It just oozes with soul. It's from the Jack DeJohnette album, Parallel Realities. You mentioned Peterson as a favorite but he's about as technical as any pianist who ever lived. But it doesn't bother me as long as the music is great.


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

starthrower said:


> I think he has that side of him as many of his solos sound very logical to my ears. But to me he also has a soulful side as well. Listen to his playing on the Metheny tune, John McKee. It just oozes with soul. It's from the Jack DeJohnette album, Parallel Realities. You mentioned Peterson as a favorite but he's about as technical as any pianist who ever lived. But it doesn't bother me as long as the music is great.


A great piece!


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## Bwv 1080 (Dec 31, 2018)

Floeddie said:


> I too like Peterson, but that's not all I like. Peterson plays well, he's melodic, but not atonally at all. Peterson is the Budweiser of beer... on rare occasion I will drink one and even like it. There is none in my refrigerator. But I do have a few Oscar albums, and every now and then I'll listen. Peterson appeals to the masses in a very big way. I'd call him soft pop jazz.


Think OP laid down one of the greatest solos ever on the track below. OP, a student^3 of Liszt, was technically the best jazz pianist perhaps after Art Tatum. You dont see his level of transcendental virtuosity, with pedal and dynamics, from many other jazz pianists.


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

Miles didn’t like him either.


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## Neo Romanza (May 7, 2013)

Floeddie said:


> I too like Peterson, but that's not all I like. Peterson plays well, he's melodic, but not atonally at all. Peterson is the Budweiser of beer... on rare occasion I will drink one and even like it. There is none in my refrigerator. But I do have a few Oscar albums, and every now and then I'll listen. Peterson appeals to the masses in a very big way. I'd call him soft pop jazz.


One reason why I think Peterson and Garland are great is because of their ability to play inside of the music and, in doing this, it's easy to follow and understand where they are going from an improvisational point. This isn't to undermine how incredible I think both pianists are of course, but I seldom reach for a Garland or Peterson album, because I rarely feel any kind of darker undercurrent in their music that pulls you in and keeps you there. Some of my favorite jazz pianists: Bill Evans, Hancock, Tyner, Corea, Jarrett, Michel Petrucciani, Fred Hersch and a few others have this ebb and flow in their playing that is endlessly fascinating to me. Harmonically daring and they just pull me in as I'm a harmonically-minded listener and I'm always listening out for unusual chord voicings and sequences. One of the most beautiful and intriguing chord voicings I ever heard was from Chick Corea on Miles' _Bitches Brew_ on the piece _Sanctuary_ --- listen at the 5:45 mark:


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

Bwv 1080 said:


> Think OP laid down one of the greatest solos ever on the track below. OP, a student^3 of Liszt, was technically the best jazz pianist perhaps after Art Tatum. You dont see his level of transcendental virtuosity, with pedal and dynamics, from many other jazz pianists.


Not unlike Gould, it was the tone he got on the piano that I appreciate more often than the music. This one is nice.


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