# Newly discovered Beethoven & Bach (sort of)



## kangxi (Jan 24, 2014)

You love Beethoven's piano concertos but you've listened to all 5 and there aren't any more. You turn in some desperation to the early E Flat Major (WoO4) concerto, and the piano version of the Violin Concerto, & you even unearth 2 other early works: A Romance Cantabile for piano, flute, bassoon, oboe & string orchestra (Hess 13) and a perky rondo for piano & orchestra (WoO 6). You finally include the Triple Concerto, but reluctantly come to the conclusion that that's all there is.

Likewise, you might be a devotee of Bach's organ music, but you've heard every note he wrote in the format. There was a supernova of excitement when the Yale chorale preludes were authenticated, but that was over 30 years ago. Now you're stuck with listening to music you know by heart.

If this describes you, take heart! Help is at hand!

Beethoven had a pupil who was steeped the the Master's style. Treat yourself to the series recently issued by Naxos of the piano concertos by Ferdinand Ries and you'll almost convince yourself that some of these are lost Beethoven works. The passage work, the orchestration, the structure: all have the Beethoven stamp. They're not Beethoven of course, but they (a) are remarkably enjoyable in their own right, and (b) convey Beethoven's voice.

And for more Bach, listen to his most faithful pupil. Some of his more famous students (eg his sons) enthusiastically adopted the new galant style, but one pupil stood by his master and wrote in the old-fashioned Bach style for his entire career. Step forward Johann Ludwig Krebs. I'm convinced you could put together a concert of the less played Bach chorale preludes and slip in a couple of pieces by Krebs and almost nobody except the experts would notice.

Anyway, Krebs and Ries are not only writing in a voice inculcated in them by the best masters, they wrote damned good music in anybody's judgement. Try them and let me know what you think.


----------



## kangxi (Jan 24, 2014)

Damn that urge to post! Now is the time I find out that the edit function doesn't allow you to correct a typo in the title!


----------



## shangoyal (Sep 22, 2013)

Very interesting thread. Kind of not relevant for me, because I have probably heard only about 5% of Beethoven and Bach's music put together! So I still have the originals to listen to!


----------



## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

I should turn in "desperation" to a childish piano concerto by Beethoven because I am not satisfied with the other great 5 piano concertos?

Sorry. I'm not that desperate!!!


----------



## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

kangxi said:


> You love Beethoven's piano concertos but you've listened to all 5 and there aren't any more. You turn in some desperation to the early E Flat Major (WoO4) concerto, and the piano version of the Violin Concerto, & you even unearth 2 other early works: A Romance Cantabile for piano, flute, bassoon, oboe & string orchestra (Hess 13) and a perky rondo for piano & orchestra (WoO 6). You finally include the Triple Concerto, but reluctantly come to the conclusion that that's all there is.
> 
> Likewise, you might be a devotee of Bach's organ music, but you've heard every note he wrote in the format. There was a supernova of excitement when the Yale chorale preludes were authenticated, but that was over 30 years ago. Now you're stuck with listening to music you know by heart.
> 
> ...


I've always intended to explore Krebs's music but I've never got round to it. The one thing I do know is a Partita (No. 2) played on modern piano by Anatoly Vedernikov. I like it. I remember trying to find a version on a more contemporary keyboard, but I never succeeded.

Could you suggest some good chorales to start me exploring, and maybe some good performances? I can see 10 volumes of organ preludes by Felix Friedrich on spotify, but it's a bit daunting. I can see that William Porter has recorded some too - I'm very keen on his Bruhns CD.

You have, I'm sure, heard BWV 1128, which always makes me think of Geo. Muffat.


----------



## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

Mandryka said:


> I've always intended to explore Krebs's music but I've never got round to it. The one thing I do know is a Partita (No. 2) played on modern piano by Anatoly Vedernikov. I like it. I remember trying to find a version on a more contemporary keyboard, but I never succeeded.
> 
> Could you suggest some good chorales to start me exploring, and maybe some good performances? I can see 10 volumes of organ preludes by Felix Friedrich on spotify, but it's a bit daunting. I can see that William Porter has recorded some too - I'm very keen on his Bruhns CD.


Porter is one of my favorite Bach organists, and his Krebs disc on Loft Recordings is a winner - excellent music, wonderful Swedish historical organ, exceptional performances and top-rate sound. Just keep in mind that krebs is not the reincarnation of Bach.


----------



## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

kangxi said:


> You love Beethoven's piano concertos but you've listened to all 5 and there aren't any more. You turn in some desperation to the early E Flat Major (WoO4) concerto, and the piano version of the Violin Concerto, & you even unearth 2 other early works: A Romance Cantabile for piano, flute, bassoon, oboe & string orchestra (Hess 13) and a perky rondo for piano & orchestra (WoO 6). You finally include the Triple Concerto, but reluctantly come to the conclusion that that's all there is.


Try Beethoven's Choral Fantasy. The first part is purely piano, the second part (12 minutes worth) is much like a piano concerto, and the third part adds vocals.


----------



## Alfacharger (Dec 6, 2013)

Bernard Herrmann quoted a Krebs fugue for his score to Mysterious Island, The Giant Bird! (Just a slight change of orchestration on Herrmann's part.)

About 2:15 in.


----------



## spradlig (Jul 25, 2012)

I'm pretty sure Beethoven transcribed his violin concerto for the piano himself, and added an original cadenza that wasn't in the violin concerto. It may be worth a listen for that reason. Personally, I love his Triple Concerto.



kangxi said:


> You love Beethoven's piano concertos but you've listened to all 5 and there aren't any more. You turn in some desperation to the early E Flat Major (WoO4) concerto, and the piano version of the Violin Concerto, & you even unearth 2 other early works: A Romance Cantabile for piano, flute, bassoon, oboe & string orchestra (Hess 13) and a perky rondo for piano & orchestra (WoO 6). You finally include the Triple Concerto, but reluctantly come to the conclusion that that's all there is.
> 
> Likewise, you might be a devotee of Bach's organ music, but you've heard every note he wrote in the format. There was a supernova of excitement when the Yale chorale preludes were authenticated, but that was over 30 years ago. Now you're stuck with listening to music you know by heart.
> 
> ...


----------



## Weston (Jul 11, 2008)

I've seen some of the Naxos Ries discs / files (what _shall_ we call stored music when it keeps changing?) and have been intrigued wondering if he was more of a Beethoven tribute artist than was Anton Rubinstein. Rubinstein has a lot more romantic era bombast than Beethoven of course. I also wonder about Czerny as a candidate for Beethoven Jr. so to speak.


----------



## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

Here is a wonderful piano concerto:


----------



## kangxi (Jan 24, 2014)

Weston said:


> I've seen some of the Naxos Ries discs / files (what _shall_ we call stored music when it keeps changing?) and have been intrigued wondering if he was more of a Beethoven tribute artist than was Anton Rubinstein. Rubinstein has a lot more romantic era bombast than Beethoven of course. I also wonder about Czerny as a candidate for Beethoven Jr. so to speak.


I don't have enough Czerny to be able to judge- I'll have to look out for more by him.
Re Rubinstein, I have a fair bit of music by him, but he hadn't up to now struck me as particularly Beethovenian - I'll have to listen to all his music again with that in mind. Right now I'm listening to a piano trio by him (I think it's op15 in F but my metadata is screwed so it could be anything by R). The slow movement is meltingly beautiful, one of the best I've heard in that medium.

A "tribute artist". Heh. I don't usually like modern pop jargon ("songs" for stuff that aren't) but I do like "tribute artist". And Ries definitely was.


----------



## kangxi (Jan 24, 2014)

spradlig said:


> I'm pretty sure Beethoven transcribed his violin concerto for the piano himself, and added an original cadenza that wasn't in the violin concerto. It may be worth a listen for that reason. Personally, I love his Triple Concerto.


I love the triple as well! But it's a stretch to think of it as a keyboard concerto - I sort of misclassified it in my original post.

And hpowders - I agree the early E Flat concerto is very young Beethoven, although I'd not call it childish (too afraid of a vindictive lightning bolt). I included it in my list because some of us in addition to being music lovers are obsessive collectors & completists as well, sort of being male & a geek & a nerd & edging along a little bit along the autistic spectrum...ut:
Actually, listen to the concerto again: there's a tiny fragment, no more than a bar, used only once (IIRC) that later appears in the violin concerto. Odd he should have cherry-picked that little motif (and it doesn't appear often in the vn conc either).


----------



## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Ries was a younger friend and pupil of Beethoven. I have read (don't have the reference right handy) that Beethoven criticized his music as being too derivative of Beethoven's own. There's truth in that!

In the movie "Eroica," about the premiere performance of the symphony, Ries is shown as Beethoven's sidekick. Beethoven introduces him to Haydn as "the idiot." Haydn nods understandingly. In fact, Beethoven got quite unhappy with Ries on that occasion because Ries thought the horn returned to the tonic a bar early at the recap of the first movement. Which in fact it did (though intentional).


----------



## kangxi (Jan 24, 2014)

Florestan said:


> Try Beethoven's Choral Fantasy. The first part is purely piano, the second part (12 minutes worth) is much like a piano concerto, and the third part adds vocals.


Damn! You're right! How could I have forgotten it? Especially when it almost but not quite steals the punchline from the ninth symphony.


----------



## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

kangxi said:


> Damn! You're right! How could I have forgotten it? Especially when it almost but not quite steals the punchline from the ninth symphony.


Critics seem to avoid the fact that the choral theme of the Fantasy is *close* to a note-by-note rendition of the Ode to Joy...


----------



## kangxi (Jan 24, 2014)

Mandryka said:


> I've always intended to explore Krebs's music but I've never got round to it. The one thing I do know is a Partita (No. 2) played on modern piano by Anatoly Vedernikov. I like it. I remember trying to find a version on a more contemporary keyboard, but I never succeeded.
> 
> Could you suggest some good chorales to start me exploring, and maybe some good performances? I can see 10 volumes of organ preludes by Felix Friedrich on spotify, but it's a bit daunting. I can see that William Porter has recorded some too - I'm very keen on his Bruhns CD.
> 
> You have, I'm sure, heard BWV 1128, which always makes me think of Geo. Muffat.


There's a captivating fantasia by Krebs in G Maj: I know there's a version on youtube (which I can't access at present - I'm in China & it's been banned for years). It's by a chap who makes a digital version of the piece & synchronises it with an animated depiction of the counterpoint, with each voice in a different colour. You can see how dense & clever the counterpoint is in this piece, but to the ear it's deceptively simple & melodic. If you do a search on youtube it's be in the first ten or so results.

To my astonishment I don't have BWV1128 - when you mentioned it I thought it was one of the Yale/Neumeister chorales but it isn't. When I get back home I'll have to (a) update my New Grove Bach worklist, and (b) fill the gaps in chop chop.


----------



## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Kangxi, why does China block YouTube? Any idea?


----------



## kangxi (Jan 24, 2014)

KenOC said:


> Kangxi, why does China block YouTube? Any idea?


Sheer perversity I like to think. I think in general they're wary of anything that brings large amounts of people together, so all the well known social etc sites such as youtube, twitter, facebook, linkedin and the like are blocked, and a home grown domestic equivalent in place instead which can be more easily monitored & controlled.
The other place I've lived where censorship was common they were rather more obnoxious about it: Saudi Arabia. They had an army of English speaking peons from the sub-continent censoring individual newspapers. I remember when Pr Andrew (aka randy andy) married fergie. The picture on virtually all the UK papers was the happy couple on the balcony of Buckingham Palace, kissing. Every single paper had a block of black marker pen obliterating the little bit where their mouths wee touching. Looked for all the world as if they were chewing through a lump of coal together. I'm rather curious about the attitude of the hard-line Wahabi mullahs toward the internet (actually that's not hard to imagine) but I've no intention of ever going there again to find out.
Ob class music: I bought a copy of Harnoncourt's Idomeneo in Riyadh. You may recollect that the cover has a naked (androgynous) person sitting on the ground, facing away from the viewer. All you could see was a naked back - obviously this was enough to inflame the passions of any passing cleric. So yes, that was censored, but the person who censored it was careful not to just blacken the whole thing: no, he carefully drew a black shirt on the figure. And even then that was only on the cellophane wrapping. Not the brightest collection of humans on the planet, the Saudi Mullahs.


----------



## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

There are many Beethoven piano works that include strings if you like piano but just not by itself.

But here is a nice work I just discovered: Romance cantabile for piano, flute, bassoon and orchestra (2 oboes and strings).


----------

