# Is retirement boring?



## BrahmsWasAGreatMelodist

Seems like a scam tbh.


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## Art Rock

Why a scam? Best thing that ever happened to me*. Of course, you need sufficient financial security, but to be able to do what you like without the stress of a regular job, is brilliant.

* after finding my soul mate obviously....


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## fbjim

I don't plan on it.


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## amfortas

I didn't expect to be able to, but now I can. Still adjusting, figuring out where I go from here.


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## mmsbls

I'll be ready to retire from my main job in a couple of years. I'll still consult for several years, but my time will be vastly reduced. I expect to have no trouble finding many things to do with my time when I retire.


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## SanAntone

No. I found having to go to work everyday more boring. I now occupy myself with things I love.


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## atsizat

I couldn't even start, let alone retire.


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## Kiki

I'm enjoying every moment of my retirement life; but to be honest, I do not have enough time every day to do all the things that I want to do! How I wish there were 48 hours a day!


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## Forster

However one chooses to spend one's time, boredom can be a risk. Retirement is no exception. Adjusting to 'not working' takes time and of course, whether you're bored depends on what you do with your retirement (and how well resourced you are).


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## elgar's ghost

I like the idea of bookending my life. I started work properly aged 18 and I would appreciate 18 years of post-retirement good health. Obviously I can't say when that will exactly be but if I can retire by the time I'm 65 then that will do me. A wise ex-colleague once told me that the older you are the less money you are likely to spend, which for me is good news because I'm already fairly low-maintenance as it is (no mortgage, wife, kids, ex-wife, car etc...). I'd rather be slightly poorer and in good health rather than pensioned up to the hilt but too far gone to enjoy it.


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## eljr

BrahmsWasAGreatMelodist said:


> Seems like a scam tbh.


I never wanted to retire. It is simply not in my nature. 
I fully expected I would work till I died.

Not so much. I was forced to retire at 55 by health.

So, although it is not something I looked forward to as do most, I find it completely not boring. 
How could it be? You have time to do whatever it is that interests you. So if you are bored, that is on you as you are not interesting yourself.

I take college level courses, I listen to copious amounts of music, I eat like a king, I never miss a sports event.


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## Jay

I can retire any time but have yet to pull the trigger. I'm financially secure but have little-to-no faith in the stewards of America's "red of tooth & claw" economy. I recouped the money I lost in the Great Recession because I was working; retired, I'd be f*cked in a similar downturn.


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## fbjim

I'm kind of the opposite where I'm primarily holding for a downturn in home prices so I'd actually be able to afford one. Otherwise I'm working and renting for the foreseeable future.


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## Pat Fairlea

BrahmsWasAGreatMelodist said:


> Seems like a scam tbh.


No, retirement isn't boring. There's always some new place to go, book to read, music to listen to.


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## Potiphera

What retirement? there is so much to do, so little time. Still lots to achieve.


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## Phil loves classical

i took a few years off working till a few months ago. I think anything can become boring when you do it often enough. Fortunately my place of employment right now is not very stressful or hectic like most others in my industry and the places I've worked before.


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## Bulldog

Retirement is great. I was fortunate to be able to tone it down some in the last years of employment, and I still do real estate deals from time to time. With 18 years of retirement under by belt, I heartily recommend it to all except workaholics.


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## starthrower

I was enjoy retirement until the pandemic hit. It's been kinda of a drag these last two years. Very little going on and now the cost of living is rising substantially. Who knows what's in store for the next few years?


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## Becca

BrahmsWasAGreatMelodist said:


> Seems like a scam tbh.


What an odd question and comment! It must come from someone quite young.

To answer the question, it is what you make of it.


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## mikeh375

I retired very early and haven't looked back since. I'm loving it, especially after a high pressured job. Perhaps BWAGM will explain what he means by it being a scam.


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## atsizat

Guys, Am I the only one who is considered to be young here? Every one of you talks about how you guys tetired.

I am 31 years old. How old most people on this forum are? Looks like most members are over 55.


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## Forster

atsizat said:


> Guys, Am I the only one who is considered to be young here? Every one of you talks about how you guys tetired.
> 
> I am 31 years old. How old most people on this forum are? Looks like most members are over 55.


That's only because it's the retired members most likely to answer the question.


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## atsizat

Forster said:


> That's only because it's the retired members most likely to answer the question.


I had the feeling that most people here were over 55.


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## fbjim

atsizat said:


> Guys, Am I the only one who is considered to be young here? Every one of you talks about how you guys tetired.
> 
> I am 31 years old. How old most people on this forum are? Looks like most members are over 55.


I'm 31 as well. Recession generation representing


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## atsizat

fbjim said:


> I'm 31 as well. Recession generation representing


How is it that I did not even start, let alone retire?

Why work when you have money?


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## Barbebleu

I’ve been retired for eleven years. Before I retired my work ran a pre-retirement course. One of the things I attended was a round robin where they asked everyone in turn what their plans were after they retired. Without exception they all replied that they would look for a job to occupy their time. I say without exception apart from myself, that is. My reply was - “I have worked for forty four years and eight months. I intend to spend the next forty four years and eight months doing nothing apart from indulging myself.”

I thought, why would you look for another job? Why not just remain in the job you are already in if you’re so keen to work? Weird! 

Anyway I have no idea how I actually found time to work. There aren’t enough hours in the day for me to do all that I want to do and the years are flying by. In the words of Bob, I’m doing ninety miles an hour down a dead-end street!


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## arpeggio

No.

Prior to retirement I only had the time to play with two groups.

Since retirement I play with three and I am an alternate with a fourth.


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## BrahmsWasAGreatMelodist

Becca said:


> What an odd question and comment! It must come from someone quite young.
> 
> To answer the question, it is what you make of it.


I'm one of the laziest 22 y/o's I know, or at least I was until recently. I've been feeling quite productive recently for whatever reason. Maybe recruitment & entrepreneurship. I went through a deep and psychotic depression last year. Got expelled from college for some dumb ****, bad breakup, betrayed by "friends", deteriorating relationship with family etc etc. Ended up getting involved in some clandestine affairs with sketchy people in some sketchy parts of Chicago for a few months. Nobody wants you when you're down and out. A year ago I was attending a top university studying math and economics and was at the top of my class, en route to a PhD. Had to reconsider everything after that fell down. But I never really wanted a life in academia anyway; it just felt like the path of least resistance.

I've come out of this episode a stronger, more mature, and more empathetic person than I've ever been, and I've started to take life into my own hands. Learning things 2x as fast as in college, and in a much more practical manner. Maybe I'm less intellectually curious than before but I've sort of forced myself to be as trying to learn everything simply hinders your productivity sometimes. I'm more interested in getting things done. Currently looking for jobs in data science / machine learning, where skills expertise and talent can supercede the "requirements" for a BS masters or even phd. All the resources to receive a world-class education are free and online nowadays anyway, you just have to be motivated. I feel blessed to be where I am now and to have wonderful friends in my life and a family who loves me unconditionally despite our differences, and I hope to find meaningful and fulfilling opportunities to make others happy in work, hobbies, and personal life.

Re being a scam: that was mostly just to provoke discussion. College, now that's a scam.


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## BrahmsWasAGreatMelodist

Bulldog said:


> Retirement is great. I was fortunate to be able to tone it down some in the last years of employment, and I still do real estate deals from time to time. With 18 years of retirement under by belt, I heartily recommend it to all except workaholics.


What are you most proud of in the last 18 years if I may ask?


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## Phil loves classical

BrahmsWasAGreatMelodist said:


> I'm the laziest 22 y/o I know, or at least I was until recently. I've been feeling quite productive recently for whatever reason. Maybe recruitment & entrepreneurship. I went through a deep and psychotic depression last year. Got expelled from college for some dumb ****, bad breakup, betrayed by "friends", deteriorating relationship with family etc etc. Ended up getting involved in some clandestine affairs with sketchy people in some sketchy parts of Chicago for a few months. Nobody wants you when you're down and out. A year ago I was attending a top university studying math and economics and was at the top of my class, en route to a PhD. Had to reconsider everything after that fell down. But I never really wanted a life in academia anyway; it was just easy for me.
> 
> I've come out of this episode a stronger person and I've started to take life into my own hands. Learning things 2x as fast as in college, and in a much more practical manner. Maybe I'm less intellectually curious than before but I've sort of forced myself to be as trying to learn everything simply hinders your productivity sometimes. Currently looking for jobs in data science / machine learning, where skills expertise and talent can supercede the "requirements" for a BS masters or even phd. All the resources to receive a world-class education are free and online nowadays anyway, you just have to be motivated.
> 
> Re being a scam: that was mostly just to provoke discussion.


That's good. I get a sense you may have been just going with the flow before with what society values, and not really sure of what you wanted yourself. When you see the ugly side, then you find out a few things first hand.


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## BrahmsWasAGreatMelodist

Phil loves classical said:


> That's good. I get a sense you may have been just going with the flow before with what society values, and not really sure of what you wanted yourself. When you see the ugly side, then you find out a few things first hand.


It's very easy to fall into that mode of living. I actually think you almost have to be forced out of it to really see what lies beyond.


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## Forster

atsizat said:


> How is it that I did not even start, let alone retire?
> 
> Why work when you have money?


Not everyone who works does so for money only.



Barbebleu said:


> I've been retired for eleven years. Before I retired my work ran a pre-retirement course. One of the things I attended was a round robin where they asked everyone in turn what their plans were after they retired. Without exception they all replied that they would look for a job to occupy their time. I say without exception apart from myself, that is. My reply was - "I have worked for forty four years and eight months. I intend to spend the next forty four years and eight months doing nothing apart from indulging myself."
> 
> I thought, why would you look for another job? Why not just remain in the job you are already in if you're so keen to work? Weird!


My experience was similar, as my colleagues asked what I was going to do...the big adventure? consultancy?...something else surely. My answer was that, having worked in my career for nearly forty years, I was quite content with just 'not working'.

I will add, however, that if I hadn't been stuck in a job that was offering dimishing returns of personal satisfaction, I might have continued for a few years more, at least until statutory retirement age.


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## HenryPenfold

Retirement is such a disappointing bore. I'd happily swap my 3 month vacations, travel, swimming, hiking, reading, lunching with friends, going to the gym, listening to infeasable amounts of music and opera, chilling with my family etc for standing outside an impossibly busy A&E department in London at 2.00am in the morning in November, as the on-call executive director agreeing which patients will be admitted from a queue of 14 ambulances, which ones will be sent on to other hospitals and phoning hospital doctors at home in bed to get in there too as we stave-off meltdown. Then go back at 7.30 for regular business until 6.30pm.

edit: as irony doesn't seem to have an American visa, I should point out that retirement is wonderful!


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## Dan Ante

Retirement boring you may as well ask is life boring, I can only speak for myself and the answer is NO. My wife and my good self retired in 2002 and at last we had the time and money to do the things we wanted after years of living off the smell of an oily rag. Retirement with no debt is the target plus a few dollars in the bank and good health. Jobs around the house etc that I used to do in an hour now takes 4 – 5 hrs so what. The only problem we have is a new neighbor who is a cocky sod and a bit of a bully but you can’t have everything. We love life and there is not much more left.


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## atsizat

I studied chemistry at university but it is impossible to find a job relelated to what I studied.

Studying most depepartments at University are useless in Turkey.

I don't wanna work in waiter kind of jobs at restaurants.

We have exams in Turkey to become a public servant. Most people take this exam and only little people out of them can get enough points to be a public servant. I try to study for this exam but it is difficult to become minor out of majority. Too many people take this exam. If you win, you become a public servant and there is no age limit. You just got to get a very good point in the exam and you are a public servant if you beat the exam, which is difficult. You have to study a lot for the exam. 

This exam is made for both high school graduated and university graduated. One takes the exam accordinly. The exam for university graduated can be harder comparared to high school related but same topics exist in the exam. Only questions can be harder.


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## atsizat

Other than beating this exam, there is no future for me.

A lot of people rely on this exam to have a future. Lol.


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## Chilham

One of these will arrive in May next year (if I can figure out how to import it from Germany):










I'll retire end of June next year. My wife and I plan to travel the World overland, roughly a year on each continent, following the sun.

I'll let you know if it gets boring.


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## BrahmsWasAGreatMelodist

Chilham said:


> One of these will arrive in May next year (if I can figure out how to import it from Germany):
> 
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> 
> I'll retire end of June next year. My wife and I plan to travel the World overland, roughly a year on each continent, following the sun.
> 
> I'll let you know if it gets boring.


Haha it seems we're of one mind my friend. Nice whip 

Sounds like a blast


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## atsizat

Chilham said:


> One of these will arrive in May next year (if I can figure out how to import it from Germany):
> 
> 
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> 
> I'll retire end of June next year. My wife and I plan to travel the World overland, roughly a year on each continent, following the sun.
> 
> I'll let you know if it gets boring.


In Turkey, you would have to be real rich to have something like that.

Monthy minumum wage salary is 287 dollars and you would pay more than double its money in dollars with extremely high taxes in Turkey.

Can you now figure out how rich you must be to buy something like this in Turkey?

My father is an orthopedic doctor and he's been working as an ortopedic doctor for more than 25 years...

What does he have? 2015 Mercedes C200d as an ortopedic doctor.

He studied 11 years at university to be an ortopedic doctor

6 years regular medicine and 5 years orthopedics after medicine.


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## Chilham

atsizat said:


> In Turkey, you would have to be real rich to have something like that.
> ...


I was in Georgia and Turkey on my motorcycle in 2016, just after the attempted coup. In Georgia, everyone wanted to know how much my motorcycle cost. When I told them, they rolled their eyes. It happened so often that I started to downgrade to value.

When we arrived in Turkey, everyone said, "Welcome to Turkey. Are you having a good time?" no one cared the cost of the bike.

I think different people value different things.


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## atsizat

Chilham said:


> I was in Georgia and Turkey on my motorcycle in 2016, just after the attempted coup. In Georgia, everyone wanted to know how much my motorcycle cost. When I told them, they rolled their eyes. It happened so often that I started to downgrade to value.
> 
> When we arrived in Turkey, everyone said, "Welcome to Turkey. Are you having a good time?" no one cared the cost of the bike.
> 
> I think different people value different things.


The cheapest (china made) 125 cc motorcycle in Turkey is now about 5 times higher than the monhtly minumum wage salary.


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## jegreenwood

For the most part, no. The pandemic led to some boring times. Also, I was disappointed a few months ago, when a major project of mine his a roadblock and is now probably dead. On the other hand I got a dog shortly before the pandemic started, and she keeps me busy. 

Moreover I write this on my way to Churchill, Manitoba, where I will visit with polar bears. My first real trip in almost two years. I look forward to more.


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## Phil loves classical

jegreenwood said:


> For the most part, no. The pandemic led to some boring times. Also, I was disappointed a few months ago, when a major project of mine his a roadblock and is now probably dead. On the other hand I got a dog shortly before the pandemic started, and she keeps me busy.
> 
> Moreover I write this on my way to Churchill, Manitoba, where I will visit with polar bears. My first real trip in almost two years. I look forward to more.


Great adventure! Must be some ride there. You flying or by train? Not cheap either way.


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## Dan Ante

jegreenwood said:


> For the most part, no. The pandemic led to some boring times. Also, I was disappointed a few months ago, when a major project of mine his a roadblock and is now probably dead. On the other hand I got a dog shortly before the pandemic started, *[Uand she keeps me busy. [/U]*
> 
> Moreover I write this on my way to Churchill, Manitoba, where I will visit with polar bears. My first real trip in almost two years. I look forward to more.


I have a wife does the same thing


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## atsizat

Dan Ante said:


> I have a wife does the same thing


I would never ever have a wife myself. I am much below women's standards. I would never be able to marry.


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## Dan Ante

atsizat said:


> I would never ever have a wife myself. *I am much below women's standards.* I would never be able to marry.


Join the club :wave:


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## jegreenwood

Phil loves classical said:


> Great adventure! Must be some ride there. You flying or by train? Not cheap either way.


Right now sitting at the Winnipeg airport waiting for news on a flight that was supposed to depart at 8:00 a.m. No bears today.


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## Ingélou

It's not boring, although I can feel sad remembering wonderful teaching experiences that I won't have again. And I can feel uneasy, wondering about health, and being less inclined to travel far or stay up late. 

But I've been so lucky - I turned to music in retirement and have enjoyed listening to and discovering classical music on this forum and playing my fiddle and after ten years it's become second nature. I never tire of playing. Plus, we have crosswords, books, scrabble, dvds, trips to historic sites, trips to gardens, and Scottish country dancing. 

I repeat - it isn't boring.


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## atsizat

Dan Ante said:


> Join the club :wave:


Forever alone club?


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## Krummhorn

I was able to take early retirement at age 58 from my main stay job which was not in any way related to music. I worked in an Air Force plant as a civilian testing electronic parts for missiles used by the military in the US and abroad. 

The life suddenly got busier ... all those things I had put off doing because I was always working two jobs and never had enough time to complete. My second job has been, and still is, a professional church organist, which pays quite well ... but then I have over 60 years of experience in that career. 

We started ushering at two venues, one a concert hall, the other a theater that also had stage shows. 

After 10 years of that we decided it was time to slow down ... these days I volunteer my time here and on our sister site, MIMF, the publicity, membership, and webmaster for a local professional musicians group. I still have my church position which takes up about 25 hours per week. Choosing music, practicing, choir rehearsals, soloist rehearsals, the odd funeral or memorial service, and playing for services on Saturday and Sunday. 

Far from boring in any way. We are financially secure and will retire our home mortgage next year ... Mary and I are happy just being together with our two cats at home. 

Kh


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## eljr

Krummhorn said:


> I was able to take early retirement at age 58 from my main stay job which was not in any way related to music. I worked in an Air Force plant as a civilian testing electronic parts for missiles used by the military in the US and abroad.
> 
> The life suddenly got busier ... all those things I had put off doing because I was always working two jobs and never had enough time to complete. My second job has been, and still is, a professional church organist, which pays quite well ... but then I have over 60 years of experience in that career.
> 
> We started ushering at two venues, one a concert hall, the other a theater that also had stage shows.
> 
> After 10 years of that we decided it was time to slow down ... these days I volunteer my time here and on our sister site, MIMF, the publicity, membership, and webmaster for a local professional musicians group. I still have my church position which takes up about 25 hours per week. Choosing music, practicing, choir rehearsals, soloist rehearsals, the odd funeral or memorial service, and playing for services on Saturday and Sunday.
> 
> Far from boring in any way. We are financially secure and will retire our home mortgage next year ... Mary and I are happy just being together with our two cats at home.
> 
> Kh


If you lived in NY you would realize you never retire your mortgage. You simply reduce it. The taxes are insane. 

Sounds great, enjoy!


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## Couchie

Personally I hope to die before I am 70. If I am cursed with longer life however, I will pick up a daring heroin habit at that time.


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## atsizat

Couchie said:


> Personally I hope to die before I am 70. If I am cursed with longer life however, I will pick up a daring heroin habit at that time.


How much pain will be lived is more of a matter before dying.

I am okay to die with anesthesia painlessly with the help of a doctor at age 31.


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## mikeh375

Couchie said:


> Personally I hope to die before I am 70. If I am cursed with longer life however, I will pick up a daring heroin habit at that time.


Couchie, I wonder if you'll change your mind when you are 69.


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## Kiki

Ingélou said:


> It's not boring, although I can feel sad remembering wonderful teaching experiences that I won't have again. And I can feel uneasy, wondering about health, and being less inclined to travel far or stay up late.
> 
> ...


That struck a chord! For me, the change took time to get used to, but then so far in every stage of my life I lost something but gained something else. Change is not necessarily bad. I think it's the same for everybody - whether one _decides_ to embrace the change will determine how well one is going to do in the next stage of life. I am speaking the obvious of course. Easy said than done, surely. But I've been through that, and I am very happy.


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## atsizat

It is boring to be born.

The older I am, the more I lose it.


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## Bulldog

atsizat said:


> It is boring to be born.
> 
> The older I am, the more I lose it.


Maybe it's time for you to think and say positive things about yourself and your country.


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## atsizat

Bulldog said:


> Maybe it's time for you to think and say positive things about yourself and your country.


How does one say possitive things about a terribly negative country?


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## Phil loves classical

atsizat said:


> It is boring to be born.
> 
> The older I am, the more I lose it.


Try "There is only opportunity for discovery/experience when born.
The older I am, the more I discover/experience.
I'll continue to explore and experience till I die, and there is no loss in any of it."


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## Krummhorn

Couchie said:


> Personally I hope to die before I am 70. If I am cursed with longer life however, I will pick up a daring heroin habit at that time.


That is one of the reasons I took advantage of early retirement. Many of my work friends worked right up to age 72 or 75 then retired ... within a year they were dead. I wanted a chance to enjoy life before I got to that 'death' age of my, now, former (because they area dead) friends.

I've got many health issues and another two were just added to the list ... asthma and now I have to be on oxygen 24/7. I'm feeling much better on oxygen so it is helping.


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## starthrower

atsizat said:


> How does one say possitive things about a terribly negative country?


You still have to make a life for yourself. Millions and millions live in crappy countries. But at least we're not in N. Korea or Sudan. It can always be worse.


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## atsizat

Phil loves classical said:


> Try "There is only opportunity for discovery/experience when born.
> The older I am, the more I discover/experience.
> I'll continue to explore and experience till I die, and there is no loss in any of it."


I lost my mind.


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## Dan Ante

atsizat said:


> How does one say possitive things about a terribly negative country?


I think the whole world is in a bit of a mess at the moment and some places worse than others perhaps mother nature is giving us a nudge, all we need now is for some trigger happy idiot to press the red button...


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## atsizat

Dan Ante said:


> I think the whole world is in a bit of a mess at the moment and some places worse than others perhaps mother nature is giving us a nudge, all we need now is for some trigger happy idiot to press the red button...


10 turkish liras is 1 dollar. Why should I work for money which has no value? And there are also great taxes in this country.

You buy something but 3 out of 4 is taxes.

The country is only able to live with great taxes taken from people who live in it.


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## Dan Ante

atsizat said:


> 10 turkish liras is 1 dollar. Why should I work for money which has no value? And there are also great taxes in this country.


Well if you don't work how do you get money for food etc ? Life aint fair mate just don't let the ******** win.


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## atsizat

Dan Ante said:


> Well if you don't work how do you get money for food etc ? Life aint fair mate just don't let the ******** win.


I have enough money for buying food and drinks so I don't have to work but with the money I have, I can't even buy a 15 year old Hyundai Accent now.

I will not be able to buy a car by working for minumum wage sallary in this country. Only something 30 years old.

Not only that 10 turkish dollars is 1 dollar but also taxes are great, meaning paying a lot more dollar with the taxes.


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## atsizat

Not everybody has to work buy simple things like food and drinks.

There is such a thing as inheritance, isn't there?

I hope inheritance is the right word.


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## atsizat

Monthly minumum wage salary is 283 dollars in Turkey, which is no money for one month.

And with great taxes in Turkey, you will pay a lot more dollars for things like cars, motorcycles, etc.

Turkey must be the country with the greatest taxes in the world.


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## Kivimees

I have a few more years before retirement. I don't know if it will be boring, but it is likely to be a struggle to make ends meet given my country's political history and subsequent economic reality.

I doubt belly-aching will make it any easier, so I will refrain.


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## atsizat

atsizat said:


> Monthly minumum wage salary is 283 dollars in Turkey, which is no money for one month.
> 
> And with great taxes in Turkey, you will pay a lot more dollars for things like cars, motorcycles, etc.
> 
> Turkey must be the country with the greatest taxes in the world.


1 dolar increased to 11.2 Turkish Liras now.

Montly minumum wage salary got down to 252 dollars now.

Turkish money keeps losing value and dollar keeps increasing.

In December, montly minumum wage salary can go below 200 dollars.

Turkey is over because of Erdogan

In January 2021, monthly minumum wage salary used to be 380 dollars with one dollar being 7.43 Turkish Liras


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## Chilham

atsizat said:


> ...
> 
> Turkey is over because of Erdogan
> 
> ...


Careful. .............


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## Art Rock

Chilham said:


> Careful. .............


Indeed. You are not as anonymous as you'd think on the internet. Also:

Please refrain from politics.


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## atsizat

atsizat said:


> 1 dolar increased to 11.2 Turkish Liras now.
> 
> Montly minumum wage salary got down to 252 dollars now.
> 
> Turkish money keeps losing value and dollar keeps increasing.
> 
> In December, montly minumum wage salary can go below 200 dollars.
> 
> Turkey is over because of Erdogan
> 
> In January 2021, monthly minumum wage salary used to be 380 dollars with one dollar being 7.43 Turkish Liras


1 dollar reached 13.12 turkish liras now.

Monthly minumum wage salary got down to 215 dollars now.

1 dollar will be 15 turkish liras in a few days, which means monthly minumum wage salary will be below 200 dollars.


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## starthrower

atsizat said:


> 1 dollar reached 13.12 turkish liras now.
> 
> Monthly minumum wage salary got down to 215 dollars now.
> 
> 1 dollar will be 15 turkish liras in a few days, which means monthly minumum wage salary will be below 200 dollars.


What does any of this have to do with the thread topic? You've already told us about your opinion of the Turkish economy. There's nothing a bunch of retired geezers on the TC forum can do about it.


----------



## atsizat

starthrower said:


> What does any of this have to do with the thread topic? You've already told us about your opinion of the Turkish economy. There's nothing a bunch of retired geezers on the TC forum can do about it.


You guys are super lucky not to have been born in Turkey.

The motorcycle which I had bought in September is now almost 1.5 times more expensive.


----------



## Guest

elgars ghost said:


> I like the idea of bookending my life. I started work properly aged 18 and I would appreciate 18 years of post-retirement good health. Obviously I can't say when that will exactly be but if I can retire by the time I'm 65 then that will do me. A wise ex-colleague once told me that the older you are the less money you are likely to spend, which for me is good news because I'm already fairly low-maintenance as it is (no mortgage, wife, kids, ex-wife, car etc...). I'd rather be slightly poorer and in good health rather than pensioned up to the hilt but too far gone to enjoy it.


My spouse will be retired 20 years next June!! Not true that you are likely to spend less money; quite the opposite.

For you young people, pay as much as you can into superannuation now. It's remarkable how quickly the years fly by and with life expectancy increasing you don't want to spend many many years miserable and having to make ends meet.

We have Andrew Winter on subscription TV in Australia and he got into real estate at 16, invested in the UK and made a lot of money. He's very good at selling and gives exceptionally good advice about where to buy and pitfalls to avoid. I'd be doing that as young as possible, even if you have to go into it with a mate or partner. No time to waste!!

My sister and her former husband bought an old shack and had it moved onto a block of land they had. She was 19 at the time and he was 20. They lived in that old house, along with a young son,did it up and sold it for a good price - then moved onto the next property. He was a millionaire before he was 40, but he had to pay out my sister - which took years.

Spoiler alert; divorce is a retirement and lifestyle killer. You cannot seriously hope to make money without the additional income from a spouse or partner. So, get going....!!


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## Dan Ante

I started work at 16 and retired in 2002, in NZ if you can retire with no debt and own your own home the pension will keep you going any savings you have will make things easier. It boils down to what life style you want we have always enjoyed the simple things in life and the www makes things a lot easier in many ways. The big thing that we have found is you don’t know what’s around the corner.


----------



## Guest

Dan Ante said:


> I started work at 16 and retired in 2002, in NZ if you can retire with no debt and own your own home the pension will keep you going any savings you have will make things easier. It boils down to what life style you want we have always enjoyed the simple things in life and the www makes things a lot easier in many ways. The big thing that we have found is you don't know what's around the corner.


Best of luck with it all!! You live in a very wonderful country.


----------



## Dan Ante

Christabel said:


> Best of luck with it all!! You live in a very wonderful country.


Thanks Christabel, I forgot to mention that the pension that everyone gets is a universal pension and is taxed so even if you are a billionaire you get it but the tax you pay takes it back plus some.


----------



## Guest

Dan Ante said:


> Thanks Christabel, I forgot to mention that the pension that everyone gets is a universal pension and is taxed so even if you are a billionaire you get it but the tax you pay takes it back plus some.


My husband's daughter lives in Auckland as do her 3 sons and I never could figure out their pension system. We fly over from Australia reasonably regularly and particularly admire the wonderful south island and its vastly superior tourism infrastructure compared to Australia!!


----------



## ToneDeaf&Senile

Retirement? I absolutely love it, compared to the alternative. I am at last able to devote the vast majority of my time to what I do best . . . absolutely nothing. The more vegitative my lifestyle, the better. There are of course downsides, but for me those mostly spring from deterioration of physical and mental health due to age, which I'd suffer were I still working. (I'm lucky in that my Health Care is rather good (meaning inexpensive) by U.S. standards, allowing me to exist on a modest retirement income. That said, one costly ailment that slips through the cracks and is not covered might well ruin me. But again,that's true for a great many here, retired or not.)


----------



## Ingélou

I've never been someone who got bored as I enjoy doing nothing and just sitting and thinking. 

Retirement isn't boring, but it can be guilt-inducing as I am aware that I could be doing something more useful.


----------



## Annied

Right through my working life, work was simply the means of earning the money to do the things I really wanted to do. I never had a job I hated, but nor did I have one that ever made me change my mind about that. I took my chances, left work as early as I possibly could, and have definitely never regretted it.


----------



## NoCoPilot

Working was boring, because I was doing what somebody else want me to do instead of what I wanted to do. I estimate I used only 40% of my mental capacity doing stupid tasks for somebody else, but it took 100% of my time.

Time I'll never get back. I retired at 61 and wish I could've retired a decade or two earlier.


----------



## eljr

NoCoPilot said:


> Working was boring, because I was doing what somebody else want me to do instead of what I wanted to do. I estimate I used only 40% of my mental capacity doing stupid tasks for somebody else, but it took 100% of my time.
> 
> Time I'll never get back. I retired at 61 and wish I could've retired a decade or two earlier.


it's easier to work 80 hours a week for oneself than it is to work 40 a week for somebody. At least for me it was.


----------



## NoCoPilot

Yep. They say if your job is something you love, it doesn't feel like work. Trouble is, I could never figure out how to get somebody to pay me for listening to music and reading books.


----------



## eljr

NoCoPilot said:


> Yep. They say if your job is something you love, it doesn't feel like work. Trouble is, I could never figure out how to get somebody to pay me for listening to music and reading books.


I had the best job on the planet.. I still do some part time.

All I did all day was drive around and talk to folks. Folks who became my friends within the first year. 
Can you imagine, just go from friend to friend and talk. And make more money than you ever could working for someone.

Of course sometimes I'd have to go the sports matches or vacation resorts. So it wasn't all just drive around and talk. 

The biggest deal I ever made was from a beach. The cell phone and internet made work 24/7 but it also enabled you to do it from anywhere at any time.


----------



## Merl

I cant wait to retire . I've never got bored in my life and have a million and one things I'd do in retirement.


----------



## NoCoPilot

eljr said:


> I had the best job on the planet.. I still do some part time.
> 
> All I did all day was drive around and talk to folks. Folks who became my friends within the first year.
> Can you imagine, just go from friend to friend and talk. And make more money than you ever could working for someone.
> 
> Of course sometimes I'd have to go the sports matches or vacation resorts. So it wasn't all just drive around and talk.
> 
> The biggest deal I ever made was from a beach. The cell phone and internet made work 24/7 but it also enabled you to do it from anywhere at any time.


So, you were a pastor?


----------



## BrahmsWasAGreatMelodist

Is retirement selfish?


----------



## BrahmsWasAGreatMelodist

NoCoPilot said:


> Working was boring, because I was doing what somebody else want me to do instead of what I wanted to do. I estimate I used only 40% of my mental capacity doing stupid tasks for somebody else, but it took 100% of my time.
> 
> Time I'll never get back. I retired at 61 and wish I could've retired a decade or two earlier.


The concept of an 8-9 hour workday is ridiculous (+ commute, + OT coming up randomly: most people in my company spend 10 or so hours everyday in the office). Especially for jobs which require your brain, which I can apply productively 3-4 hours max on a consistent basis. You're not even going to be productive after that point. Maybe I can understand the 8 hour workday for customer service jobs, but not for my role. I come home everyday too exhausted to do anything else, and I spend half the weekend catching up on chores & errands etc.


----------



## Dan Ante

BrahmsWasAGreatMelodist said:


> Is retirement selfish?


Why on earth should it be?


----------



## BrahmsWasAGreatMelodist

Uh, it is. If everyone retired, nothing would function. Not yet anyway.


----------



## BrahmsWasAGreatMelodist

What an odd question "why on Earth should it be?" It's inherently designed to be selfish. That is our Capitalist System.


----------



## Forster

BrahmsWasAGreatMelodist said:


> What an odd question "why on Earth should it be?" It's inherently designed to be selfish. That is our Capitalist System.


It's not an odd question at all: you don't explain _why _it would be selfish. The topic isn't about the idea of random retiring from life at any age, but officially sanctioned retirement from work after roughly 30-40 years of a working life.

I retired 'early' at age 60. I am fortunate that I was able to do so. I can't draw my state pension until I'm 66 or 67 - I forget which. I have an occupational pension on which I pay income tax and I also currently volunteer to be on a school governing body.


----------



## BrahmsWasAGreatMelodist

Ok I will explain the context of my discussion. I am 22. I am lazy and I do not like working long hours (40 hours a week is, by any account, incredibly long). I do enjoy contributing to society and especially to the lives of those close to me in various ways, including through work. If money were no object, I'd keep my job but only go to the office for about 2 hours a day, and take long breaks to travel and pursue other things.

"Officially sanctioned retirement after 30-40 years of work" makes no difference. Being OK with taking more than you give because of what you gave in your past _is_ inherently selfish, there's no way around it. All that matters is the present. I think this is where my view might differ from many others'; the Western idea of a "career" seems pretty individualist, limiting (personally), and selfish. I am curious as to adopting another, better framework, but one that's still practical and actually works.


----------



## starthrower

I'm retired early but who knows? I may have to go back to work eventually if the cost of living keeps skyrocketing. And I don't see things getting more affordable with time. How much will a used car cost in another 10-15 years? And rent is already at least a thousand a month for a small apartment in more affordable areas of the country. A pair of crappy Chinese sneakers cost 60-70 dollars.

I'm old enough to remember paying my own way in the 1980s and things were much cheaper back then. In fact it was the only time in my life I could afford to buy a new car. The same vehicle today costs three times as much or more.


----------



## BrahmsWasAGreatMelodist

Here's another way to think about the question:

People always talk about "(not) having time" for hobbies or seeing friends, whatever. I call ********. If Bach can have 20 kids and write a cantata every week in an era with no cars, planes, electronic dishwashers, or Google, you have time. 

But then I started working, going to the office everyday, and I realize it isn't really about time but energy. When you come home after a long and often stessful day at work, you're completely exhausted and you don't have the energy to do anything productive or interesting. So when I think about retirement, it's not so much time I want to myself, but energy.


----------



## starthrower

Brahms, the energy thing only gets worse as you get older so don't waste your youth slaving away at a juice draining job. Life goes by fast. Before you know it you'll be 50 years old and your days of youthful energy will be gone. Wasted at the office.


----------



## BrahmsWasAGreatMelodist

The odd thing is that my job only requires you to be at the office 11am-3pm, during which time I can focus, get a lot of work done, then go home & focus on other things. But almost everyone else (willingly) stays until at least 6-7 pm (except for one coworker who goes from 8-3) and works on weekends. I don't want to be the new hire who cuts corners, but I'm just not as devoted to my work as many of my coworkers.


----------



## eljr

BrahmsWasAGreatMelodist said:


> Here's another way to think about the question:
> 
> People always talk about "(not) having time" for hobbies or seeing friends, whatever. I call ********. If Bach can have 20 kids and write a cantata every week in an era with no cars, planes, electronic dishwashers, or Google, you have time.
> 
> .


This made me smile.

I can assure you, the work place demands can be so demanding that hobbies and friends are eliminated from life.

This may not be true today as there is definitely a more laissez faire attitude toward work than in 1975 but I can assure you, not having time was a VERY real and very big part of my life for far too long.

Have you ever worked 65 hours a week? For months at a time?


----------



## eljr

starthrower said:


> I'm old enough to remember paying my own way in the 1980s and things were much cheaper back then.


With 15% inflation things were cheap to you? LOL, 17% interest on home mortgages was affordable?

Me thinks nostalgia may have clouded your memory.

:lol:


----------



## Forster

BrahmsWasAGreatMelodist said:


> Ok I will explain the context of my discussion. I am 22. I am lazy and I do not like working long hours (40 hours a week is, by any account, incredibly long). I do enjoy contributing to society and especially to the lives of those close to me in various ways, including through work. If money were no object, I'd keep my job but only go to the office for about 2 hours a day, and take long breaks to travel and pursue other things.
> 
> "Officially sanctioned retirement after 30-40 years of work" makes no difference. Being OK with taking more than you give because of what you gave in your past _is_ inherently selfish, there's no way around it. All that matters is the present. I think this is where my view might differ from many others'; the Western idea of a "career" seems pretty individualist, limiting (personally), and selfish. I am curious as to adopting another, better framework, but one that's still practical and actually works.


My use of the expression "officially sanctioned retirement" was only to distinguish it from the idea of someone simply stopping going to work regardless. I wasn't claiming anything beyond that.

I'm not sure you have any right to accuse others of being selfish when you know nothing about either their work history or the employment and pension arrangements in the relevant jurisdiction.

It's true that a successful pension package depends on the investment of contributions over time - and that this is part of the "capitalist" system. It's also true that in the UK at least, the system is groaning under the strain as we live much longer after leaving work than we used to and the stock market has performed variably.

However, paying into a pension was a requirement of my employment and until the comrades could get their act together and change the system, that was the system I had to work under. Of course, my career was my choice, as was my decision to get married, have a mortgage, father two children etc. I could have done things quite differently - though not necessarily less "selfishly".

Have a care when you throw around such pejorative terms with a whiff of political intent.


----------



## starthrower

eljr said:


> With 15% inflation things were cheap to you? LOL, 17% interest on home mortgages was affordable?
> 
> Me thinks nostalgia may have clouded your memory.
> 
> :lol:


I didn't mention mortgages. And why did they drop down to nothing later on? Because we had several recessions. I know one thing. A mid sized 4 cylinder engine car didn't cost 25 grand back then. And I could eat breakfast at a diner for three dollars. And a hotel for two was 45 dollars a night. Now it's 200 bucks. And how about health insurance premiums? No family paid 1,200 dollars a month in the 80s. My memory is not cloudy at all. I got a mortgage at 10.5 percent interest in 1986 but by 1991 you could refinance for half that much and several years later it was zero but many more people couldn't afford to buy a house anyway.


----------



## eljr

starthrower said:


> I didn't mention mortgages. And why did they drop down to nothing later on? Because we had several recessions. I know one thing. A mid sized 4 cylinder engine car didn't cost 25 grand back then. And I could eat breakfast at a diner for three dollars. And a hotel for two was 45 dollars a night. Now it's 200 bucks. And how about health insurance premiums? No family paid 1,200 dollars a month in the 80s. My memory is not cloudy at all. I got a mortgage at 10.5 percent interest in 1986 but by 1991 you could refinance for half that much and several years later it was zero but many more people couldn't afford to buy a house anyway.


You are using dissimilar numbers.

Without considering inflation a comparison is meaningless, isn't it?

Health insurance was cheaper, yes. Housing was more expensive. Cars in 1983 were selling above MSRP.

Zero? I had to pay 10% in 2008 so I don't know what you are referring to.

Anyway, I have no idea why you took my blurb as adversarial. I simply disagree that things were cheaper in 1980. I think it is pretty well documented that times were much tougher back then... and people worked much longer.

Peace brother


----------



## senza sordino

BrahmsWasAGreatMelodist said:


> Is retirement selfish?


Like others, I don't think retirement is selfish. I have paid many many thousands of dollars into my retirement pension fund for decades and I intend on using this when I retire. I am taking back what is owed to me. Owed to me with interest. I have given to society by teaching thousands of students.

Perhaps I'm reading too much into this statement, but to me, it implies that we can't take anything from society, we should only give.

Retired people do contribute to society, but perhaps not with hard labour. They contribute in a myriad of ways far too complex to summarize here in a sentence or two.

I would like to think that by the time I expire, I will have contributed more to society than I have taken. The first 20 years or so, I took more than I gave, the next 40 years I gave far more to society than I took, and for the last twenty years, I'll take more than I give. The net balance is that I will have given more than I took. That's not being selfish.


----------



## eljr

BrahmsWasAGreatMelodist said:


> Is retirement selfish?


no, it is a natural evolution captioned in a term for all to understand.


----------



## BrahmsWasAGreatMelodist

senza sordino said:


> Like others, I don't think retirement is selfish. I have paid many many thousands of dollars into my retirement pension fund for decades and I intend on using this when I retire. I am taking back what is owed to me. Owed to me with interest. I have given to society by teaching thousands of students.
> 
> Perhaps I'm reading too much into this statement, but to me, it implies that we can't take anything from society, we should only give.
> 
> Retired people do contribute to society, but perhaps not with hard labour. They contribute in a myriad of ways far too complex to summarize here in a sentence or two.
> 
> I would like to think that by the time I expire, I will have contributed more to society than I have taken. The first 20 years or so, I took more than I gave, the next 40 years I gave far more to society than I took, and for the last twenty years, I'll take more than I give. The net balance is that I will have given more than I took. That's not being selfish.


I do not mean this as an insult and I'm happy you're content with the balance you've found, but this is as selfish as it gets. Maybe egotistical is a better word.


----------



## BrahmsWasAGreatMelodist

eljr said:


> no, it is a natural evolution captioned in a term for all to understand.


Well I don't know. We've disproportionally extended the span of our elderly years.


----------



## BrahmsWasAGreatMelodist

^^ artificially.

Btw for what it's worth, I agree retired people contribute to society, obviously. But I do believe retirement and the desire thereof is inherently selfish, not that there's anything wrong with that.


----------



## BrahmsWasAGreatMelodist

Forster said:


> Have a care when you throw around such pejorative terms with a whiff of political intent.


Absolutely no political intent (I don't even know what that means here?), and pejorative is your reading not mine.

I think you sound like a grumpy old person.


----------



## BrahmsWasAGreatMelodist

starthrower said:


> Brahms, the energy thing only gets worse as you get older so don't waste your youth slaving away at a juice draining job. Life goes by fast. Before you know it you'll be 50 years old and your days of youthful energy will be gone. Wasted at the office.


I hate Capitalism more and more with every passing day. But I see no viable alternative. We need a change of mindset and social values, not politics.


----------



## Dan Ante

BrahmsWasAGreatMelodist said:


> Uh, it is. If everyone retired, nothing would function. Not yet anyway.


You don't retire at 14 at least in the countries I am familiar with.


----------



## Dan Ante

starthrower said:


> Brahms, the energy thing only gets worse as you get older so don't waste your youth slaving away at a juice draining job. Life goes by fast. Before you know it you'll be 50 years old and your days of youthful energy will be gone. Wasted at the office.


My best years were in my 50s at last I had enough money and energy to do the things that I wanted, it is only now in my mid 80s that my health is a negative but life is still worth living.


----------



## Krummhorn

When I took early retirement at 58 I took an entire year off and did absolutely nothing, except cooking, laundry and housekeeping stuff ... and yes, eating and sleeping, too. 

That full year of being idle is what it took, for me, to stop the whole rat race of getting up at 4am every day, heading of to work and not getting home some days until 9pm. I was working two jobs in order to survive being a single parent. 

Then I volunteered in a thrift shop for about 7 years checking out electronics and putting them out for sale. I was also the finance guy for the store and handled all the banking and reports for the owners. 

Along with that came along two ushering gigs, one at a very prominent performance venue on a university campus, the other the main downtown theater, also very well known and respected. 

My 2nd job has continued (professional organist) to this day and is a nice supplemental income to my government pension (Social Security) and we are doing well. 

We started planning very early on for retirement investing every penny we could towards our retirement goals paying into one annuity after another and our IRA's. 

So to answer the question, no, retirement is anything but. Every day is a Saturday, except when Saturday is also Saturday and a Sunday which is when I am working at church. I take Tuesday as my total do nothing day off ... I don't schedule anything for that day, no doctor visits, no nothing ... it's all about me that one day. 

Best advice is to make plans now for what you want to do when retirement occurs ... and ... invest in yourself/yourselves, YOU pay yourselves FIRST by investing in your future. 

We are financially secure with stipends from those annuities we paid into, and our Social Security .. not rich by any means, but when we need to but something we just make it happen, spur of the moment.


----------



## NoCoPilot

Krummhorn said:


> That full year of being idle is what it took, for me, to stop the whole rat race of getting up at 4am every day, heading of to work and not getting home some days until 9pm.


Do you find you still dream about work? I do. I'm usually late for a meeting, need to use the restroom, and discover there's no porcelain in it.


----------



## NoCoPilot

BrahmsWasAGreatMelodist said:


> Ok I will explain the context of my discussion. I am 22. I am lazy and I do not like working long hours (40 hours a week is, by any account, incredibly long). I do enjoy contributing to society and especially to the lives of those close to me in various ways, including through work.


Okay, here's a cup of advice from somebody 3x your age. Find a job you enjoy.

Then 40hrs/wk won't seem so much, and being retired won't seem "selfish" so much as passing the fun to somebody else.


----------



## Art Rock

NoCoPilot said:


> Do you find you still dream about work? I do. I'm usually late for a meeting, need to use the restroom, and discover there's no porcelain in it.


Regularly for many years (I took early retirement in 2012). The theme of the dreams was similar: I knew I was retired, but I still kept going to work even though I was not paid for it. Then something happened at work that made me say: why am I here? I'm retired, I'm going home.


----------



## Forster

BrahmsWasAGreatMelodist said:


> Absolutely no political intent (I don't even know what that means here?)


Your reference to capitalism? You do it again in #112. You know that politics is off limits on the board, but you want to link the "selfishness" of retirement to capitalism.



BrahmsWasAGreatMelodist said:


> and pejorative is your reading not mine.


"selfish" _isn't _a pejorative term?



BrahmsWasAGreatMelodist said:


> I think you sound like a grumpy old person.


Call me '"selfish" and expect sweetness and light, eh?

I notice you pick out one line of my post, but have nothing to say about the rest. You might give some thought to my rejection of your claim that the retired take out more than they give.

I appreciate Krummhorn's detailed post, but would not entirely agree with his final piece of advice. I'd lean more to what NoCoPilot says: find a job (or jobs) you can enjoy doing. I didn't decide what I wanted to do until two years after I'd left college. Two years either unemployed or doing temp jobs, but having a great time having left home, drinking, listening to lots of post-punk and new wave and wondering why the BBC weren't snapping me up.

Once I'd decided to be a primary school teacher, the career followed, though I didn't stay in the classroom. But at my very first interview, I was asked where did I think I would be in 5 years time.

I hadn't the faintest idea.

I didn't get the job, but it didn't seem to do me any harm in the long run.


----------



## BrahmsWasAGreatMelodist

NoCoPilot said:


> Okay, here's a cup of advice from somebody 3x your age. Find a job you enjoy.
> 
> Then 40hrs/wk won't seem so much, and being retired won't seem "selfish" so much as passing the fun to somebody else.


I enjoyed my job today. I was productive and left promptly at 3 pm. I'm in a much better mood about it now


----------



## BrahmsWasAGreatMelodist

eljr said:


> This made me smile.
> 
> I can assure you, the work place demands can be so demanding that hobbies and friends are eliminated from life.
> 
> This may not be true today as there is definitely a more laissez faire attitude toward work than in 1975 but I can assure you, not having time was a VERY real and very big part of my life for far too long.
> 
> Have you ever worked 65 hours a week? For months at a time?


Luckily I haven't had to go up to 65 on a consistent basis (a couple weeks here and there when deadlines need to be met, probably). I would hope, that should not be necessary for anyone.

But my post still stands. If you work 65 hours a week, that's over 100 hours to do other things. Surely 5 of those can be devoted to yourself. Unless you're an investment banker and work 100+ hours a week, it's energy, not time, which is the limiting factor.


----------



## BrahmsWasAGreatMelodist

Forster said:


> Your reference to capitalism? You do it again in #112. You know that politics is off limits on the board, but you want to link the "selfishness" of retirement to capitalism.


Well not quite, but I'm too busy and tired to explain. Besides, you don't really seem to be on good enough behavior to have a productive discussion.



> "selfish" _isn't _a pejorative term?


No I don't necessarily think it has to be. It can be a compliment. Resourceful.



> Call me '"selfish" and expect sweetness and light, eh?


You are taking this way too personally (and seriously). I never said anything about you. The desire to eat is selfish. Everyone eats. Does that mean everyone is selfish?



> I notice you pick out one line of my post, but have nothing to say about the rest. You might give some thought to my rejection of your claim that the retired take out more than they give.


You actually didn't say anything about this claim in your post. I responded to one line because the rest is either anecdotal or drivel.


----------



## BrahmsWasAGreatMelodist

I know I have an enjoyable job. I need to learn to enjoy it.


----------



## BrahmsWasAGreatMelodist

I'd like to request that this thread be retired, please.


----------



## eljr

BrahmsWasAGreatMelodist said:


> Well I don't know. We've disproportionally extended the span of our elderly years.


I am perplexed.

Is this your way of saying that people retire too early?



BrahmsWasAGreatMelodist said:


> I do not mean this as an insult and I'm happy you're content with the balance you've found, but this is as selfish as it gets. Maybe egotistical is a better word.


This was reply was not to me but for the life of me I can't see how you draw the conclusions you draw in this post from the post you quoted.



BrahmsWasAGreatMelodist said:


> ^^ artificially.
> 
> Btw for what it's worth, I agree retired people contribute to society, obviously. But I do believe retirement and the desire thereof is inherently selfish, not that there's anything wrong with that.


How so?

I am completely lost as to your perspective.

Would you ignore the natural cycle of life? If so, and then what?



BrahmsWasAGreatMelodist said:


> I hate Capitalism more and more with every passing day. But I see no viable alternative. We need a change of mindset and social values, not politics.


Bridled capitalism. That is what works best.

Capitalism in it's raw state is a monster which devourers the unfortunate. Wealth redistribution is essential in a capitalistic based economy.



NoCoPilot said:


> Do you find you still dream about work?


Just last night!

I miss it so. My aim was to never retire. Health took that plan from under my feet.



BrahmsWasAGreatMelodist said:


> Luckily I haven't had to go up to 65 on a consistent basis (a couple weeks here and there when deadlines need to be met, probably). I would hope, that should not be necessary for anyone.
> 
> But my post still stands. If you work 65 hours a week, that's over 100 hours to do other things. Surely 5 of those can be devoted to yourself. Unless you're an investment banker and work 100+ hours a week, it's energy, not time, which is the limiting factor.


LOL

Do other things? You mean like sleep, eat and commute?

I see you have had a very soft life and have no frame of reference to understand my posts. I am happy for you, sincerely. That is how sociaty should have evolved. I am glad it has.

When I was your age, young and strong, determined and industrious I twice, two years in a row, feel asleep sitting up straight in my chair at Christmas dinner. Yes, you can work to the point where your off time DEMANDS by the physical natural of our existence that we do nothing but rest when not at work.

You have not been clear in your posts about your perspective, I would enjoy learning it. You do seem to have a disdain for those who retire or "are not like you."

Share some and I can then offer you some edification which you appear desperate for.

Peace, little brother



BrahmsWasAGreatMelodist said:


> I'd like to request that this thread be retired, please.


:lol:

Stepped in it did ya?

Hey, let's talk, you and I. Respectfully. I am very hard to insult so that should not be a worry. I hope you are the same as I will be direct and honest. I will speak with authority when I have authority.

I really am interested in your perspective, don't run. It would be very interesting. You will be challenged, be aware.


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## Art Rock

Another point of view that I think has not been brought up yet: at least here in the Netherlands (and I would imagine in many other countries of comparable living standards), many of the retired people are well off (I do realize there is also poverty in this group), and tend to spend more on day trips, holidays, coffee places, restaurants, museums, etc (at least pre-Covid), thus still contributing to the economy in a less direct but still substantial way.


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## Forster

BrahmsWasAGreatMelodist said:


> Well not quite, but I'm too busy and tired to explain. Besides, you don't really seem to be on good enough behavior to have a productive discussion.
> 
> No I don't necessarily think it has to be. It can be a compliment. Resourceful.
> 
> You are taking this way too personally (and seriously). I never said anything about you. The desire to eat is selfish. Everyone eats. Does that mean everyone is selfish?
> 
> You actually didn't say anything about this claim in your post. I responded to one line because the rest is either anecdotal or drivel.


Good enough behaviour? :lol:

Definition of selfish: "(of a person, action, or motive) lacking consideration for other people; concerned chiefly with one's own personal profit or pleasure". That sounds pretty pejorative to me.

You didn't have to say anything about me, personally. You just referred to "retirement" as a scam and a selfish act. How else are the retired supposed to take it?

What I said about your claim that the retired take out more than they give is that you fail to understand the factors to be taken into consideration when weighing up that in/out. I said, "_you know nothing about either their work history or the employment and pension arrangements in the relevant jurisdiction_."

I suspect you don't really know how pensions work full stop.


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## eljr

Forster said:


> You didn't have to say anything about me, personally. You just referred to "retirement" as a scam and a selfish act. *How else are the retired supposed to take it?*


I took it as naively amusing.

I am very keen to hear the perspective he arrives at this from. I find it intensely interesting that one one could ascribe such traits to retirement.

I hope he engages with me, I want to understand.

Fascinating, really.


----------



## science

My wife and I retired about six years ago planning to travel the world. We made it three years before deciding we needed to have a home, and we got back to Korea just in time for COVID, which is a very near thing to the old joke about whether it's good or bad luck to be hit by an ambulance.

I'm not saying I want to work full-time again because I totes don't, and I've been working part-time for years, but my life for the past two years has been way, way, way too boring. I don't know what I want to do with the rest of my life. I almost feel a little bit like the people at the end of _The Good Place_ or in the final chapter of Julian Barnes's _A History of the World in 10 1/2 Chapters_.

I actually fulfilled a lifelong dream last year, completing a novel that... with revisions... could be really good (and not only in my own opinion). I even have a trilogy mapped out. I was so pumped when I realized I could actually do it and it actually would be good. And now I don't even care enough even to revise it. I still write all the time but I no longer really know what for. My old ambitions and joys are now a little like the footprints on the moon looking down at Earth after all the humans have died out and the geological churning of the crust has wiped out all the other evidence of human existence (except of course for the hollow sphere of structured radiation spreading ever more thinly through the uninterested universe).

What I really need is to sit at a Paris café reading a good book on a sunny day. Or to snort coke and bang a bunch of really enthusiastic supermodels. One of those two. Or maybe something else.


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## Bulldog

science said:


> I'm not saying I want to work full-time again because I totes don't, and I've been working part-time for years, but my life for the past two years has been way, way, way too boring. I don't know what I want to do with the rest of my life. I almost feel a little bit like the people at the end of _The Good Place_ or in the final chapter of Julian Barnes's _A History of the World in 10 1/2 Chapters_.


Sorry about your current situation. It's a good thing that you're an active TC member; there's nothing confusing going on here.


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## science

Bulldog said:


> there's nothing confusing going on here.


If you didn't intend that as really dry sarcasm, I hope you'll never admit it.


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## starthrower

Dan Ante said:


> My best years were in my 50s at last I had enough money and energy to do the things that I wanted, it is only now in my mid 80s that my health is a negative but life is still worth living.


I was having fun enjoying retirement until the pandenic hit. But there's not much happening since. I'm debating whether to attend a concert on Feb 5th with the Omicron variant raging.


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## starthrower

eljr said:


> You are using dissimilar numbers.
> 
> Without considering inflation a comparison is meaningless, isn't it?
> 
> Health insurance was cheaper, yes. Housing was more expensive. Cars in 1983 were selling above MSRP.
> 
> Zero? I had to pay 10% in 2008 so I don't know what you are referring to.
> 
> Anyway, I have no idea why you took my blurb as adversarial. I simply disagree that things were cheaper in 1980. I think it is pretty well documented that times were much tougher back then... and people worked much longer.
> 
> Peace brother


I didn't take it as adversarial. Yes, interest rates were much higher but in my area I could afford to buy a house and a new car. It seemed much harder to do a couple decades later.


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## BrahmsWasAGreatMelodist

Forster said:


> Good enough behaviour? :lol:
> 
> Definition of selfish: "(of a person, action, or motive) lacking consideration for other people; concerned chiefly with one's own personal profit or pleasure". That sounds pretty pejorative to me.
> 
> You didn't have to say anything about me, personally. You just referred to "retirement" as a scam and a selfish act. How else are the retired supposed to take it?
> 
> What I said about your claim that the retired take out more than they give is that you fail to understand the factors to be taken into consideration when weighing up that in/out. I said, "_you know nothing about either their work history or the employment and pension arrangements in the relevant jurisdiction_."
> 
> I suspect you don't really know how pensions work full stop.


I'm done speaking with you, sorry. I'll talk to others in this thread and close out the discussion but you're being too immature.


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## BrahmsWasAGreatMelodist

eljr said:


> I am perplexed.
> 
> Is this your way of saying that people retire too early?


No, I don't think so. But people live (disproportionally) more years in old age where physical limitations demand retirement than we did thousands of years ago, I think.


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## BrahmsWasAGreatMelodist

eljr said:


> How so?
> 
> I am completely lost as to your perspective.
> 
> Would you ignore the natural cycle of life? If so, and then what?


The "natural cycle of life" dictates that very few of us should live beyond 80. I'll gladly ignore it.


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## eljr

starthrower said:


> I was having fun enjoying retirement until the pandenic hit. But there's not much happening since. I'm debating whether to attend a concert on Feb 5th with the Omicron variant raging.


I have not been to a concert since March 2019, a few days before the grand shut down in the states.


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## BrahmsWasAGreatMelodist

eljr said:


> LOL
> 
> Do other things? You mean like sleep, eat and commute?
> 
> I see you have had a very soft life and have no frame of reference to understand my posts. I am happy for you, sincerely. That is how sociaty should have evolved. I am glad it has.
> 
> When I was your age, young and strong, determined and industrious I twice, two years in a row, feel asleep sitting up straight in my chair at Christmas dinner. Yes, you can work to the point where your off time DEMANDS by the physical natural of our existence that we do nothing but rest when not at work.
> 
> You have not been clear in your posts about your perspective, I would enjoy learning it. You do seem to have a disdain for those who retire or "are not like you."
> 
> Share some and I can then offer you some edification which you appear desperate for.
> 
> Peace, little brother


I have had a soft life in some ways, not in others. I grew up upper middle class: not super wealthy, and my parents who hate spending money on anything never spoiled me with nice things. I've never had to worry about starving, but I've had to work for most of what I have. I've worked all kinds of jobs to support myself, including physically intensive labor. I see your post as being in agreement to mine: saying "you can work to the point where your off time DEMANDS by the physical natural of our existence that we do nothing but rest when not at work." means that energy is the limiting factor, not time.

I absolutely have no disdain for those who retire. I personally plan on retiring early, or at least going part time. My intent is to come to terms with a framework that allows me to rethink what a "career" means and I wanted the honest input of those with decades more experience than myself in this regard. I was intentionally being provocative in a couple of posts to this end. I do not personally believe everything I said in this thread; I was trying to hear from people like you. Some others in this thread took it way too seriously so I know I can pretty much ignore them from the get-go.

But I do think there is some truth to retirement being boring for many. My mom retired a couple of years ago and after a couple months got bored out of her mind to the point where she started doing volunteer and paid contractor work to help young entrepreneurs. My dad always talks about wanting to retire (he could if he really wanted to, having enough money isn't the issue), but he has enough time (and energy) on his hands right now and doesn't really do anything. Besides, he has a strange attitude towards money, kind of like Warren Buffett. He absolutely hates to spend it on anything, even essential goods+services. He'd never take an expensive vacation or eat out at a fancy restaurant. I've inherited this philosophy in moderation, which I believe is a good thing.


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## eljr

starthrower said:


> I didn't take it as adversarial. Yes, interest rates were much higher but in my area I could afford to buy a house and a new car. It seemed much harder to do a couple decades later.


The late 70's through the late 80's saw an entire generation largely shut out of buying a first home. I am glad times were good for you but that was not representative of the era.


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## eljr

BrahmsWasAGreatMelodist said:


> No, I don't think so. But people live (disproportionally) more years in old age where physical limitations demand retirement than we did thousands of years ago, I think.


And?

What conclusions do you draw from this?


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## BrahmsWasAGreatMelodist

eljr said:


> And?
> 
> What conclusions do you draw from this?


Absolutely no conclusions at all. As long as old rich people aren't taking necessary resources from younger & poorer people, I have no problem with people living a little longer than what is "natural". I was just refuting the point someone made about retirement following "natural life cycles", that's where the original post came from.


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## BrahmsWasAGreatMelodist

I wish our society would focus on living longer and healthier lives, overall.


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## eljr

BrahmsWasAGreatMelodist said:


> I have had a soft life in some ways, not in others. I grew up upper middle class: not super wealthy, and my parents who hate spending money on anything never spoiled me with nice things. I've never had to worry about starving, but I've had to work for most of what I have. I've worked all kinds of jobs to support myself, including physically intensive labor. I see your post as being in agreement to mine: saying "you can work to the point where your off time DEMANDS by the physical natural of our existence that we do nothing but rest when not at work." means that energy is the limiting factor, not time.
> 
> I absolutely have no disdain for those who retire. I personally plan on retiring early, or at least going part time. My intent is to come to terms with a framework that allows me to rethink what a "career" means and I wanted the honest input of those with decades more experience than myself in this regard. I was intentionally being provocative in a couple of posts to this end. I do not personally believe everything I said in this thread; I was trying to hear from people like you. Some others in this thread took it way too seriously so I know I can pretty much ignore them from the get-go.
> 
> But I do think there is some truth to retirement being boring for many. My mom retired a couple of years ago and after a couple months got bored out of her mind to the point where she started doing volunteer and paid contractor work to help young entrepreneurs. My dad always talks about wanting to retire (he could if he really wanted to, having enough money isn't the issue), but he has enough time (and energy) on his hands right now and doesn't really do anything. Besides, he has a strange attitude towards money, kind of like Warren Buffett. He absolutely hates to spend it on anything, even essential goods+services. He'd never take an expensive vacation or eat out at a fancy restaurant. I've inherited this philosophy in moderation, which I believe is a good thing.


Your dad is not like me, not like me at all. LOL

I have lived to excess. My vacations, palatial. Door to door limousines, first class flights, suites at hotels. Concierge outside my door.

When I divorced, twice, I simply walked away. No fights over cars or homes. I simply signed them over as I could see no limit to my capabilities and no need of swollen bank accounts. 
Further, I could never envision myself retiring. I saw no rhyme nor reason for it.

Hence I was sorely unprepared to be forced by health to retire at 55 years of age. Still, if I had it to do over, I would walk my same path.

I really do have little clue what you are doing here in this thread. Care to explain?

Peace my young friend


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## BrahmsWasAGreatMelodist

science said:


> Or maybe something else.


I've been thinking of picking up a new hobby as I've been unable to walk except with crutches or a knee brace for a month now. What do you think about candle making?


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## eljr

BrahmsWasAGreatMelodist said:


> I wish our society would focus on living longer and healthier lives, overall.


It is.

The 20 something generation eats much healthier than did the boomers. I find them to be far more responsible than previous generations too.

They are far more self indulgent but that is brought on by affluence. Far more immature but better grounded. More secure. Less self reliant at the same time.

All in all, I give them a very good score.


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## eljr

BrahmsWasAGreatMelodist said:


> I've been thinking of picking up a new hobby as I've been unable to walk except with crutches or a knee brace for a month now. What do you think about candle making?


I'd rather eat goldfish all day.

Pick a hobby that affords you the greatest knowledge. My hobby, which I recommend, take college courses to pass the time. In whatever interests you.


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## BrahmsWasAGreatMelodist

Is there not a lot to learn about making candles? Glass blowing is another one that seems interesting.

Taking college courses seems boring. I like to learn by doing.

But perhaps a course on ancient Incan civilization would be worth looking into ...


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## BrahmsWasAGreatMelodist

eljr said:


> It is.
> 
> The 20 something generation eats much healthier than did the boomers. I find them to be far more responsible than previous generations too.
> 
> They are far more self indulgent but that is brought on by affluence. Far more immature but better grounded. More secure. Less self reliant at the same time.
> 
> All in all, I give them a very good score.


There is certainly a rising awareness about exercise & nutrition.


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## starthrower

eljr said:


> The late 70's through the late 80's saw an entire generation largely shut out of buying a first home. I am glad times were good for you but that was not representative of the era.


Housing prices have been very affordable in my area. It was tougher for me to upgrade being single without a second income plus my house never really appreciating in value that much due to the small size and limited appeal. If we have another market crash and recession I'll make my move and buy another house.


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## eljr

BrahmsWasAGreatMelodist said:


> Is there not a lot to learn about making candles? Glass blowing is another one that seems interesting.


I would not find it intellectually stimulating but to be fair, most don't have the level of intellectual curiosity I do.



> But perhaps a course on ancient Incan civilization would be worth looking into ...


a far better endeavor, IMHO

BTW, MHO is of little relevance in such regards, this is very individual.


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## BrahmsWasAGreatMelodist

eljr said:


> I would not find it intellectually stimulating but to be fair, most don't have the level of intellectual curiosity I do.


Those who are more curious will find intellectual stimulation in more activities. I'm sure there's plenty to be found in candle making. I wouldn't be interested in it otherwise.


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## science

BrahmsWasAGreatMelodist said:


> Those who are more curious will find intellectual stimulation in more activities. I'm sure there's plenty to be found in candle making. I wouldn't be interested in it otherwise.


I can imagine taking a lot of satisfaction in making candles. You would be able to be creative and they would be great gifts too.


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## starthrower

I'm happy to just read books and get outside for some exercise until this pandemic runs its course. I know of only a couple people who got the Covid virus because they were foolish not to get vaccinated. I'll be getting a workout clearing snow tomorrow because the storm will be hitting us tonight.


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## Krummhorn

NoCoPilot said:


> Do you find you still dream about work? I do. I'm usually late for a meeting, need to use the restroom, and discover there's no porcelain in it.


Not at all. It was stressful work at times especially with the three week long tests which required monitoring 24/7. We passed it from one shift to another for the entire duration.


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## starthrower

I've had many nightmares about work since I retired. The details are different but the theme is the same. It's always some long drawn out scenario where the work day never ends. A 12 hour marathon in slow motion but nothing gets accomplished. I suppose it stems from my basic boredom with many of the jobs I've had. Especially when I had to be stuck at the home base with the bosses around. I was always happy to be out in the field visiting the customers but hated being stuck inside.


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## eljr

starthrower said:


> I've had many nightmares about work since I retired. The details are different but the theme is the same. It's always some long drawn out scenario where the work day never ends. A 12 hour marathon in slow motion but nothing gets accomplished. I suppose it stems from my basic boredom with many of the jobs I've had. Especially when I had to be stuck at the home base with the bosses around. I was always happy to be out in the field visiting the customers but hated being stuck inside.


So opposite me. My dreams, which are also frequent, are filled with fear of not being rehired. I guess because I loved my job and was forced out by health. I am always trying to somehow get "back in." Always foiled.


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## mikeh375

NoCoPilot said:


> Do you find you still dream about work? I do. I'm usually late for a meeting, need to use the restroom, and discover there's no porcelain in it.


I still dream about being at my Alma Mater and panicking about something vaguely academic. Then there's the dream where I'm too far behind with score prep for an imminent recording session and fail to make the deadline. Actually these are not dreams, they are bloody nightmares.


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## starthrower

eljr said:


> So opposite me. My dreams, which are also frequent, are filled with fear of not being rehired. I guess because I loved my job and was forced out by health. I am always trying to somehow get "back in." Always foiled.


That's interesting! Our subconscious fears inspiring nightmares about work. Anyways, my wife finds it entertaining when I recall these weird dreams the next morning.


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## eljr

starthrower said:


> That's interesting! Our subconscious fears inspiring nightmares about work. Anyways, my wife finds it entertaining when I recall these weird dreams the next morning.


I like you @starthrower :tiphat:


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## BrahmsWasAGreatMelodist

eljr said:


> So opposite me. My dreams, which are also frequent, are filled with fear of not being rehired. I guess because I loved my job and was forced out by health. I am always trying to somehow get "back in." Always foiled.


May I ask what was your job and what made you enjoy it so much?


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## Forster

NoCoPilot said:


> Do you find you still dream about work? I do. I'm usually late for a meeting, need to use the restroom, and discover there's no porcelain in it.


I still dream about my college years - often with exactly the same storyline as yours about finding no toilet as I wander round the student halls I stayed in.

I assume it has something to do with my bladder and not an obsession about student years from over 40 years ago!


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## Dan Ante

One dream I used to get was not being able to find my parked car but now I can’t even remember what my dreams were. The worst part of my day is when I first awake after sleep clearing my brain and they are all negative but quite quickly they are replaced by what is happening around me at the present time so the negative things are pushed to the back of my mind.


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## NoCoPilot

Art Rock said:


> The theme of the dreams was similar: I knew I was retired, but I still kept going to work even though I was not paid for it. Then something happened at work that made me say: why am I here? I'm retired, I'm going home.


I have quit my job at least three dozen times. I have NO IDEA why I keep showing up in the office.


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## NoCoPilot

Forster said:


> I assume it has something to do with my bladder and not an obsession about student years from over 40 years ago!


I assume it's my subconscious telling me I need to get up out of a warm comfy bed and find some porcelain quick.


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## science

I used to have dreams about being halfway through my final semester of senior year and discovering that I hadn't taken enough credits to graduate, or that I'd forgotten about a class I'd enrolled in, or that I'd forgotten to formally withdraw from a class I'd decided not to take so I was about to get a failing grade in it, etc... 

Turns out a lot of my college friends have the same dreams. Maybe we were under too much stress or something.


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## Jay

science said:


> I used to have dreams about being halfway through my final semester of senior year and discovering that I hadn't taken enough credits to graduate,...


I used to have a recurring dream that I didn't take a science course in high school, so I didn't officially graduate and hence my subsequent college education is null and void.


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## BrahmsWasAGreatMelodist

I still dream about college and (especially) high school after having recently moved on to the real world. I think academia and the education system at large is a cult.


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## Forster

BrahmsWasAGreatMelodist said:


> I still dream about college and (especially) high school after having recently moved on to the real world. I think academia and the education system at large is a cult.


Having spent my life in a part of "the education system", I can say that it's as much "real life" as any other workplace. But I don't recall the kind of worship associated with cults going on...

...well, except that the children I taught worshipped me. :lol:

[With an ego like that, it's just as well I've retired.]


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## BrahmsWasAGreatMelodist

I was mainly talking about higher education / academia:

1. People in it want you to stay, you cannot leave.
2. Truth is clouded by power, ideology, prestige, and other ulterior incentives.
3. It's overly saturated. Of course there are the Terence Taos of the world who belong at research universities, but nowadays everyone and their mother is getting a Master's, PhD, post-doc, whatever. Seems to be a sort of fallback plan for upper and upper-middle class kids who don't have anything better to do with themselves. 

Seems like a cult.

Religion, therapy, etc are also cults. Not saying these fields aren't useful or even in some cases necessary (education), but it's dangerous to place too much faith in them, as many unknowingly do.


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## eljr

BrahmsWasAGreatMelodist said:


> I still dream about college and (especially) high school after having recently moved on to the real world. I think academia and the education system at large is a cult.


cult?

lol

peace, little brother


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## eljr

BrahmsWasAGreatMelodist said:


> May I ask what was your job and what made you enjoy it so much?


I worked for myself as an independent sales representative. I represented many brands you would immediately know. At first in fashion, later in sport.

I enjoyed the freedom working for myself afforded. I enjoyed the relationships I formed. I enjoy the sales process itself, the presentation, it is a performance which is reviewed through orders. The money I made, you simply can't find "jobs" that pay what you can earn when you work for yourself. 
I also enjoyed the perks. Meetings at 5 star vacation resorts, tickets to sporting events and associated functions. 
The travel, I saw many places I would not have.

An example of the independence, the biggest deal I ever made was from a beach where I had taken my family for the day. (Thank God and Verizon for cell phone and cellular data)

Heck, accomplished athletes I call my friends as a result of relations formed in business.

I think what added to my appreciation was having spent 15 years working FOR companies. To be out of that slave like environment, for me, was heaven unto itself.


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## Jay

BrahmsWasAGreatMelodist said:


> It's overly saturated. [N]owadays everyone and their mother is getting a Master's, PhD, post-doc, whatever. Seems to be a sort of fallback plan for upper and upper-middle class kids who don't have anything better to do with themselves.


Economists call it "elite over-production;" too many over-educated grads seeking too few jobs that are commensurate with their education, in an economy overwhelmingly producing bullsh*t jobs. Becoming a plumber or an electrician is a better "fallback plan."


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## Luchesi

Jay said:


> Economists call it "elite over-production;" too many over-educated grads seeking too few jobs that are commensurate with their education, in an economy overwhelmingly producing bullsh*t jobs. Becoming a plumber or an electrician is a better "fallback plan."


My dad was an electrical contractor. The best advice he ever gave me was, go into science. For one, you don't have to deal with customers (I do, but they're physicists and chemists). Try to get a job in the government. It's clean work, stable and you'll probably make enough to raise a family. You can retire early and then take the contract jobs you want to take, ....but the whole point is the job is continually new and interesting, compared to most careers.


----------

