# Mahler Symphony no 7



## DavidA

Has been described as 'Mahler's mad, mad, mad, symphony'. What are our favoured recordings and why please?


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## Guest

I did an overview of about ten to fifteen recordings I really like of this symphony over on another forum but I can’t seem to find where I put my reviews for each of them. My favourites, however, are the recordings made by Boulez and Gielen, although I have a soft spot for Kubelik.


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## Granate

Abbado Chicago is the lone winner for me










Tennstedt is a step behind. Solti is brilliant but maybe too furious sometimes. One of a kind. The NYPO Bernstein set begins to fall behind from No.5 on. the DG No.7 is a good one but very close to the disaster of the DG No.2.

Kubelík DG was one of the first I ever loved, but I completely forgot how it sounded. Klemperer obsessive NPO was a love of one year until with further listen I realised that the orchestra wasn't really pushing the notes like the MPO did for Celibidache.


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## chesapeake bay

I have Bernstein and the New York philharmonic from 1966 no 1 and Scherchen live with the Toronto Symphony 1965 at no 2


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## Heck148

Abbado/Chicago is my favorite. I also really enjoy Bernstein/NYPO from the 60s...this was a breakthrough recording for this work. previous efforts, tmk, were pretty bad, overall...


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## Kiki

Some of my favourite Mahler 7s -

Tennstedt/LPO 80 Live - Raw emotions, deeply heartfelt, charismatic.
Tennstedt/LPO 93 Live - Slightly slower, a bit more restrained, but still magical.

Scherchen/VSO 50 Live - Wayward and eccentric, but highly entertaining.
Scherchen/Toronto 64 Live - Relatively more mannered, but only relatively.

Bernstein/NYPO 65 - Spontaneous!
Bernstein/NYPO 85 Live - Slightly more deliberate.

Abbado/Chicago 84 - Light like meringue. Flows with ease. Magical.
Abbado/BPO 01 Live - Beefier and more colourful, Dare I say sexier? Like a stew that has been simmering for eight hours.
Abbado/Lucerne 05 Live - A more refreshing/lively sound than Berlin, but less sexy. Like chips done in an air fryer. Brilliant, although I miss the fat.


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## CnC Bartok

An interesting work. My enthusiasm might have waned to a tiny extent over the years, but as far as I am concerned it contains Mahler's very best music, up until the fourth movement that is, where things tend to tail off. I do find the second Nachtmusik drags, and the Finale needs real conviction to not feel repetitive and purposeless.

But I reckon the first movement is about as perfect a piece as any he wrote.

Abbado's earlier recording seems to be doing well in the early recommendation stakes, and he gets one from me as well! I have a more recent discovery that might well now be my favourite, and that's Gielen; however I would also give a hearty shout for Solti, and for Vaclav Neumann on Supraphon. I do have to admit a great deal of affection for Haitink here too, possibly because I heard him do it live years ago, and he was astoundingly good in the Finale. Really let rip! And much of that same quality is to be heard in his old Concertgebouw recording.

Intelligent, respectable and experienced individuals have tried to convince me of the merits of the Klemperer recording. They have failed; I think it's about as perverse and appalling a recording as any I have ever heard, not just of Mahler 7, nor just of Mahler, but of any great piece of music.....


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## Brahmsianhorn

My absolute favorite recording of this work is one I avoided for the longest time because of reviews like the one above. When I finally heard the Klemperer, however, I was transfixed. In fact it was the first that really drew me to love the 7th. It seems you either love or hate this recording. For me, it grabs me by the throat and never lets go. So rich, dark, and gorgeous. I am glad that I am open-minded to different approaches.

My favorites:

Otto Klemperer (EMI)
Jascha Horenstein (Music & Arts, BBC)
Hermann Scherchen (1965) (Music & Arts)
Claudio Abbado (1984) (DG)

Additional recommendations:

Kirill Kondrashin (1975) (Melodiya)
Sir John Barbirolli (BBC, Barbirolli Society)
Leonard Bernstein (DG)
Sir Simon Rattle (EMI)
Daniel Barenboim (Warner)


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## realdealblues

Another one that I'm more picky on.

Bernstein/New York Philharmonic [1965]
I could live with this single recording if pressed. No other recording for me gets as much right as Bernstein does here. He finds just the right amount of humor in the Finale, he lets the cowbells and chimes ring as Mahler intended and so many other small touches in the score that no other recording hits on.

Gielen/SWR Symphony [1993]
Second choice would be Gielen. The only thing missing is the humor in the Finale, otherwise it's about as excellent as you can get.

Kondrashin and Haitink's are both great in this one. Kubelik is of course excellent. Barenboim with the Staatskapelle Berlin is a huge surprise in this one. Abbado/Chicago and Tilson-Thomas/San Francisco are both well done and would score just under my other picks.


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## Kiki

Robert Pickett said:


> ...
> Intelligent, respectable and experienced individuals have tried to convince me of the merits of the Klemperer recording. They have failed; I think it's about as perverse and appalling a recording as any I have ever heard, not just of Mahler 7, nor just of Mahler, but of any great piece of music.....


Regarding Klemperer/Philharmonia 68, whatever he saw in this symphony, I don't get it. It just seems to drag on and on and on… I'd love to hear from advocates what they like about it. (I'm not challenge the advocates, just curious to understand their views.)

For an expansive account, I'd prefer Sinopoli/Philharmonia 92, which is also gloriously played, while the eccentricity, um, not really that eccentric and I actually find it quite approachable. Although expansive, Sinopoli is still no way near as slow as Klemperer.


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## MarkW

It's a work that when I first got the Bernstein NYPO recording in the '60s, I overplayed and found it soured my stomach after a while, so hadn't played it for years.

Interestingly, a couple of months ago, our local NPR station was playing something that sounded like it quoted from the last movement, without being it. So, I waited to the end to find that it really was the 7th itself -- Alan Gilbert and the NYPO! So either he has an interesting way with it, or over the years I have really forgotten how it goes! Go figure.


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## starthrower

I'm still trying absorb this one. I have both Bernstein's, Tennstedt's on EMI, and Ozawa BSO. And I plan on picking up the Gielen set.


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## DavidA

Must confess I have not got to grips with this symphony at all at the moment but I have managed to pick up various recordings from charity shops to complement my complete sets. I have

Kubelik (Studio) - always a great Mahlerian and in this symphony too

Tennstedt - studio and live

Rattle - live

Abbado / BPO - some think of it more highly than his Chicago performance but recording not so clear.


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## starthrower

With these huge symphonies ( many at 80 + minutes ) it's a miracle if I can sit all the way through without distractions and really hear everything. I got close with no.8 the other night and I heard a lot of beautiful music I'd missed in the past.


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## Reichstag aus LICHT

Another vote for both Bernstein (Sony) and Gielen. Perhaps, as composers, they are well-equipped to make sense of this apparently difficult work - I say "apparently", because it's one of my favourite Mahler symphonies.


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## Totenfeier

Bernstein NYPO 1965 - the gold standard; what the symphony sounds like.

Tennstedt live - big, dark, and chewy; thing about Tennstedt is that you can always count on him to pump just a little more air in the tires.

Haitink Kerstmatinee - shows you just how _fun_ it can be to play a symphony, especially this one.

Tilson-Thomas - Mini-Me Bernstein. Nice sound, nice tempi, nice everything. Nice. Pleasantly nice.

Klemperer - it's dreadful, sure, but he's the only one who ever showed me how the last movement really worked.


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## Brahmsianhorn

Relistening to the Klemperer to make sure I'm not crazy. Nope, it's just as mesmerizing as ever. The only recording of this symphony that really does it for me. I can't help but wonder if people just get impatient and don't listen all the way through the movements. You cannot appreciate Mahler in little sound bytes. Klemperer really makes sense of the architecture. Each movement has its own story.


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## Merl

Gielen, Tilson Thomas, Bertini (beautifully recoreded)i, Klemperer (solid and weighty performance) and Kubelik (Audite live) are favourites for me in Mahler's wackiest (my definiton) symphony.


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## starthrower

Can't wait to listen to the Gielen. I ordered the complete cycle today for only 20 dollars! Thanks to Art Rock for the tip!


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## Larkenfield

Brahmsianhorn said:


> Relistening to the Klemperer to make sure I'm not crazy. Nope, it's just as mesmerizing as ever. The only recording of this symphony that really does it for me. I can't help but wonder if people just get impatient and don't listen all the way through the movements. You cannot appreciate Mahler in little sound bytes. Klemperer really makes sense of the architecture. Each movement has its own story.


 I've heard the Klemperer too and thought it was an amazing performance, unlike any recording i've listened to before. But I've never felt obligated to hear any Symphony all the way through in one sitting. Sometimes it can be in illuminating experience to take it one movement at a time if each one is particularly long.


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## CnC Bartok

Listened to the Klemperer after listening to the Gielen, to check whether or not it's me who's crazy.... also making sure I'm open minded enough and have the patience.

I am afraid I clearly have neither still, but I'm happy with that...!

As a heads up, Ivan Fischer's No.7 is being released in a month or so time. Might be a worthwhile purchase....


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## mbhaub

This was the Mahler symphony that turned me into a Mahlerite. Bernstein/NYP from the 60s. Remains one of the best. The first Mahler score I ever owned was the 7th. The problem with the 7th is that Finale - too many conductors take it too seriously. It needs high energy and move along. For that, it's Kondrashin with the Concertgebouw. Live performance and it shows. Much better than his earlier reading.

Last count I had 42 versions. Scherchen's several recordings are good, but hampered by sound. The Rosbaud recording on Vox is excellent, and gives us an idea of how the work was played before it became so popular. The Masur is nothing special. Jansons made a couple of recordings one after the other recently; the sound is great but I don't cotton to his Mahler. Same with Rattle. Something dishonest about it. Dudamel's is really amazing, and the Venezuelan orchestra plays extremely well. Abravanel is just dull as is Maazel. Yoel Levi with Atlanta is great, but the last movement too long. Klemperer - the middle three movements are fine, the first terrible. The last...boring and just wrong. The Maderna is worth hearing just to hear how badly it can be played. 

The best DVD version is Abaddo with Lucerne. Excellent.


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## Reichstag aus LICHT

Robert Pickett said:


> As a heads up, Ivan Fischer's No.7 is being released in a month or so time. Might be a worthwhile purchase....


I've been impressed by his Mahler recordings so far - and those of his brother! - so his 7th is definitely in my sights.


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## Kiki

mbhaub said:


> ... The Maderna is worth hearing just to hear how badly it can be played.


Collector's item!  The glitches in the Langsam are quite amazing, have to hear it to believe it, otherwise I rather enjoy the eccentricity in Nachtmusik I.


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## Larkenfield

This is a very challenging symphony to get to hang together because it's so crammed full of a concentration and inspiration of ideas-everything it seems but the kitchen sink-and it can easily fall apart and not sound like an integrated whole. Most recordings sound fragmented to me-the conductors can lose focus and lose sight of the entire whole, and that's what bothered me about Bernstein's Sony recording, the first one I heard because I felt like I hadn't gained an understanding of it as an integrated work.

The best that I've heard, my personal favorite, is Michael Tilson Thomas's performance with the London Symphony Orchestra because it grabs the listener from the first moment and doesn't let go. It's well-recorded and satisfying. I love that recording. I traded in my Bernstein (and other recordings) and felt that I'd been illuminated and that the conductor thoroughly understood it. This symphony is so intellectually dense with ideas that Mahler tried to fit in that I've long felt that it represents him at the full height of his creative mastery and power. It's like he's passing through an intense dream state and then coming out the other side.

The first movement only, but the key to the entire performance is how well MTT keeps track of the details without losing sight of the whole, perhaps Mahler's most intellectual, philosophical, gripping symphony:


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## Heck148

Some of the old M7 recordings [pre-Bernstein/NYPOI I] were pretty hilarious...It's been years since I've heard them, but a few were quite unforgettable!! :lol::lol:
There was[??] Swarovsky/Berlin Radio Orchestra - must have been a tape of live concert or broadcast....wonderful horn and trumpet clinkers and goobers all over the place!! trumpets really had problems, esp with the tough stuff in the finale - just wasn't happening....the horns clobbered constantly, left and right - real "clam chowder"...wonderfully entertaining.

Then there was Scherchen/VSOO - iirc, that's the one where the big bass trombone solo in mvt I sounds about a half step flat....and the tenor horn solo [mvt I] - the major solo of the piece - is most interesting - a really unique tone quality - rather like an elephant f*rting into an aluminum trashcan!! great party stuff :lol:


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## Merl

Heck148 said:


> Then there was Scherchen/VSOO - iirc, that's the one where the big bass trombone solo in mvt I sounds about a half step flat....and the tenor horn solo [mvt I] - the major solo of the piece - is most interesting - a really unique tone quality - rather like an elephant f*rting into an aluminum trashcan!! great party stuff :lol:


Lol, I've never listened to this performance so I must remedy that. Sounds like fun. Hahaha.


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## chill782002

Vaclav Neumann / Gewandhaus Orchester Leipzig (1968)
Kyrill Kondrashin / Concertgebouw Orkest (1979)
Claudio Abbado / Chicago Symphony Orchestra (1984)
Michael Tilson Thomas / London Symphony Orchestra (1997)

These are all superb performances, in my opinion.


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## mbhaub

Merl said:


> Lol, I've never listened to this performance so I must remedy that. Sounds like fun. Hahaha.


There are several Scherchen recordings of the 7th - he loved to conduct this symphony. The Vienna version is a deeply brooding version that I absolutely love - warts and all. It must be remembered that every recording made before the Abravanel was played using the original Bote & Bock edition with hundreds, if not thousands, of errors. Some the "wrong" notes were correct - at least that's what was printed. This symphony, especially the first movement, is horrifyingly complex in the chromatic writing. Lots of flats and sharps were missed. In my long list of missed opportunities by the recording industry, not having Scherchen record a complete Mahler cycle - with a top-notch orchestra - is one of the most egregious. I think he played the 7th under Mengelberg.


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## 89Koechel

(" … played the 7th under Mengelberg.") - Wow, one can wonder what THAT sort of performance would sound like, if preserved! Willem M's Mahler 4th/with Jo Vincent, is enough evidence of how the Dutchman could keep Mahler's output, in a fervent grasp (and others can dispute his tempos). Well, I don't think there's a true consensus, 'bout the BEST of a Mahler 7th, although there are MANY, to consider.


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## Totenfeier

chill782002 said:


> Vaclav Neumann / Gewandhaus Orchester Leipzig (1968)
> Kyrill Kondrashin / Concertgebouw Orkest (1979)
> Claudio Abbado / Chicago Symphony Orchestra (1984)
> Michael Tilson Thomas / London Symphony Orchestra (1997)
> 
> These are all superb performances, in my opinion.


I listened to the Kondrashin just today. Brilliant!


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## chill782002

Brahmsianhorn said:


> Relistening to the Klemperer to make sure I'm not crazy. Nope, it's just as mesmerizing as ever. The only recording of this symphony that really does it for me. I can't help but wonder if people just get impatient and don't listen all the way through the movements. You cannot appreciate Mahler in little sound bytes. Klemperer really makes sense of the architecture. Each movement has its own story.


I'm in agreement with those who think Klemperer's performance is too slow. However, no one now alive knows for sure at what speed Mahler himself took the 7th and Klemperer would certainly have seen him conduct it. That said, Hermann Scherchen is supposed to have played viola in a performance of the 7th led by Mahler but this doesn't necessarily mean that he adopted Mahler's tempi. Did Klemperer? A recording by Bruno Walter, the other conductor with a direct link to Mahler, would have helped answer the question but he never recorded the work as far as I'm aware. I guess we'll never know for sure what tempi Mahler himself intended.


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## DavidA

chill782002 said:


> I'm in agreement with those who think Klemperer's performance is too slow. However, no one now alive knows for sure at what speed Mahler himself took the 7th and Klemperer would certainly have seen him conduct it. That said, Hermann Scherchen is supposed to have played viola in a performance of the 7th led by Mahler but this doesn't necessarily mean that he adopted Mahler's tempi. Did Klemperer? A recording by Bruno Walter, the other conductor with a direct link to Mahler, would have helped answer the question but he never recorded the work as far as I'm aware. I guess we'll never know for sure what tempi Mahler himself intended.


Klemperer met Gustav Mahler in 1905 while conducting the offstage brass at a performance of Mahler's Symphony No. 2.. He also made a piano reduction of the second symphony. The two men became friends, and Klemperer became conductor at the German Opera in Prague in 1907 on Mahler's recommendation. Mahler wrote a short testimonial, recommending Klemperer, on a small card which Klemperer kept for the rest of his life. Later, in 1910, Klemperer assisted Mahler in the premiere of his Symphony No. 8. So I guess K was as close to Mahler as anyone of his generation. .


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## DavidA

Just to follow the previous post. Walter is our other link with Mahler:
'In 1901, Walter accepted Mahler's invitation to be his assistant at the Court Opera in Vienna. Walter led Verdi's Aida at his debut. In 1907 he was elected by the Vienna Philharmonic to conduct its Nicolai Concert. In 1910, he helped Mahler select and coach solo singers for the premiere of Mahler's Symphony No. 8. When Mahler died on May 18, 1911, Walter was at his deathbed. On June 6, he wrote to his sister that he was to conduct the premiere of Mahler's Das Lied von der Erde;[7] he did so in Munich on November 20, 1911, in the first half of an all-Mahler concert (the second half contained Mahler's Symphony No. 2).[8] On June 26, 1912 he led the Vienna Philharmonic in the world premiere of Mahler's Symphony No. 9.[9]' (Wiki)

So both Walter and Klemperer were intimately associated with Mahler but they conducted his music quite differently. What does that tell us?


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## Reichstag aus LICHT

DavidA said:


> So both Walter and Klemperer were intimately associated with Mahler but they conducted his music quite differently. What does that tell us?


Walter seems to have been more intimately associated with Mahler, for longer and perhaps more frequently. It's also interesting to learn that Mahler invited Walter to be his assistant conductor. Whether that makes Walter's interpretations of Mahler more definitive than Klemperer's I don't know.


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## DavidA

Reichstag aus LICHT said:


> Walter seems to have been more intimately associated with Mahler, for longer and perhaps more frequently. It's also interesting to learn that Mahler invited Walter to be his assistant conductor. Whether that makes Walter's interpretations of Mahler more definitive than Klemperer's I don't know.


In comparing himself with Wakter, Klemperer made the statement: 'Bruno Walter was a very good conductor but he was a moralist; I am immoralist!"


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## realdealblues

I think both knew Mahler well enough to make what they had to say in their interpretations valid, but I do think part of Klemperer's slow tempo for the Mahler 7th was partially due to his age. By 1969 most of his recordings were substantially slower than anything he performed in his youth. If we had a live Klemperer recording of Mahler's 7th from the 50's to compare it with I believe the tempos would have been quicker than what we hear in that recording. When you hear something like his Bruckner 8 from 1970 and compare it with a live recording from 1957 he's almost 3-5 minutes quicker in almost every movement. Those last few years from like 1968 to 1971 almost everything was slower than what he would have normally performed it at even just a few years before in the early to mid 60's. That's my feeling and I know a few others who share that feeling.


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## DavidA

realdealblues said:


> I think both knew Mahler well enough to make what they had to say in their interpretations valid, but I do think part of Klemperer's slow tempo for the Mahler 7th was partially due to his age. By 1969 most of his recordings were substantially slower than anything he performed in his youth. If we had a live Klemperer recording of Mahler's 7th from the 50's to compare it with I believe the tempos would have been quicker than what we hear in that recording. When you hear something like his Bruckner 8 from 1970 and compare it with a live recording from 1957 he's almost 3-5 minutes quicker in almost every movement. Those last few years from like 1968 to 1971 almost everything was slower than what he would have normally performed it at even just a few years before in the early to mid 60's. That's my feeling and I know a few others who share that feeling.


Yes it is said his disabilities meant he tended to beat slower.


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## realdealblues

DavidA said:


> Yes it is said his disabilities meant he tended to beat slower.


Yeah, he started slowing a bit by 1960 for sure from his disabilities and advancing age although he was still able to give some great performances and still had lots of good days, but I think those last few years starting about 1968-69 he was especially infirm. He only made a few recordings those last few years compared to previous years and I think he was just at that point in his life where it was getting hard to do it.


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## DavidA

realdealblues said:


> Yeah, he started slowing a bit by 1960 for sure from his disabilities and advancing age although he was still able to give some great performances and still had lots of good days, but I think those last few years starting about 1968-69 he was especially infirm. He only made a few recordings those last few years compared to previous years and I think he was just at that point in his life where it was getting hard to do it.


Of course he was bi-polar too and one had to catch him in-between manic and depressive moods


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## Granate

Are we seriously again with the "Genuine Mahler conductor" contest?


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## DavidA

Granate said:


> Are we seriously again with the "Genuine Mahler conductor" contest?


There us no such thing. The point I'm trying to make


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## Totenfeier

Back to the matter at hand, Jansons/Concertgebouw. Thank me later.


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## chill782002

DavidA said:


> There us no such thing. The point I'm trying to make


Thanks for the posts DavidA, Reichstag aus LICHT and realdealblues. Most informative.


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## Larkenfield

I've heard the slower Mahler 7th by Otto Klemperer and I consider it a departure, his own highly personal take, from how Mahler may have performed this symphony himself. It sounds like a complete radical break from how he normally may have played him and I don't think it was the result of age. The slower tempo allows the listener to luxuriate in the sound of every possible detail that Mahler wrote, and it's a remarkable interpretation to be savored that does not fit into any possible category of Mahler recordings. That's the genius of it, that it could still work at that pace, and I found it a remarkable recording for anyone not in a hurry to get to the finish line. There's a sense of timelessness.


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## Becca

Ivan Fischer discussing Mahler and rehearsing the 7th.


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## 1996D

Very conflicted symphony; it may represent best what Mahler was, of all his works. 

I get the sense he wrote it for no one, with no outside expectations or any grandiose idea. He was more established and didn't need to look to impress anyone.

The fact that he altered it after tragedy struck makes it very biographical rather than looking to convey something in a planned manner. It's also his work with the most effects and adornments, and that makes me think it's his way of adorning himself because he's being so honest. 

Not wanting to be ugly in his honesty.


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## Reichstag aus LICHT

I often feel that the Seventh is Mahler's most forward-looking symphony, almost Schoenbergian in character at times. It's perhaps for this reason that 20th century composer/conductors like Gielen, Segerstam and and Boulez play it so well.


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## Barbebleu

Becca said:


> Ivan Fischer discussing Mahler and rehearsing the 7th.


Very good. Thanks for posting Becca. Released in UK on 29 March and now on my wish list!


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## NLAdriaan

Reichstag aus LICHT said:


> I often feel that the Seventh is Mahler's most forward-looking symphony, almost Schoenbergian in character at times. It's perhaps for this reason that 20th century composer/conductors like Gielen, Segerstam and and Boulez play it so well.


I think so too.

The finale of the 7th is clearly Mahler's most avant garde piece, where you hear the 2nd Viennese School nearby. His later work was less advanced. This is maybe why the 7th is among the least popular of Mahler's work. 
And as the modernist Boulez said it: There is no Mahler 10.

Interesting to compare Klemperer 7 with Boulez 7, as if you hear two different pieces.


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## mbhaub

I'm looking forward to this 7th. So far the entire cycle has been terrific with the 5th a bit of a let down. The recorded sound is sensational - so natural, balanced and warm. This video clearly shows that Fischer has spent a lot of time thinking through the 7th. But it also worries me that we may have an almost-cycle since he doesn't do the 8th. Just for completeness I hope he gives in.


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## Becca

mbhaub said:


> I'm looking forward to this 7th. So far the entire cycle has been terrific with the 5th a bit of a let down. The recorded sound is sensational - so natural, balanced and warm. This video clearly shows that Fischer has spent a lot of time thinking through the 7th. But it also worries me that we may have an almost-cycle since he doesn't do the 8th. Just for completeness I hope he gives in.


Completeness is a double-edge sword. Personally I am glad when a conductor is honest enough to recognize and act (or not act) on their personal opinions, quirks and blind-spots.


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## NLAdriaan

Just went to the Concertgebouworkest, IMO the greatest Mahler band, playing Mahler 7 with Jaap van Zweden conducting instead of Daniele Gatti. It was not upto the refined level I heard from Boulez in 2011 or the Jansons version of 2016, both with the same orchestra in their home venue.

Nothing beats a live concert though. 
.


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## Guest

yes becca i think you are right, ivan fischer is one of the greatest conductors alive in his compact repertoire and he has clearly said he had no personal vision of mahler's 8th symphony and would therefore not record it; i think we should all respect this decision for its artistical honesty; it is well known i only focus on recordings after 1980 and believe jansons, chailly and fischer are the best ones for mahler together with honeck's magnificent efforts in some of the symphonies; i also like some of boulez versions; so let us enjoy fischer's great cycle and forget about the 8th which to me is mahler's only failure


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## Becca

I am not quite sure what to make of Fischer's Mahler recordings ... while I agree that they are better than average, none that I have heard strike me as amongst the best and worth keeping. It will be interesting to hear his 7th when it is released but it will have to be something very special to displace Gielen's, my current 'go-to' recording.

As to Fischer's view on the 8th, more power to him for not doing a me-too, however I totally disagree with the oft-repeated sentiments about the 8th, it is anything but a failure. I would put it in the top 3 of Mahler's symphonies ... but then I've never been one to follow fashion 

Regarding Jansons, Chailly, I have the Chailly 3rd but haven't heard any others by them. As to Honeck, I would be interested in hearing him in a performance which didn't attempt to bludgeon the listener with the in-your-face recording ... but perhaps that's what he wants.


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## Bourdon

Michael Gielen (91) just died,may he rest in peace.


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## CnC Bartok

Very very sad to hear that.


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## Art Rock

Bourdon said:


> Michael Gielen (91) just died,may he rest in peace.


Oh dear. Well, I'll play Mahler 4 from his complete symphonies box in his honour tonight. RIP.


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## Kiki

Becca said:


> I am not quite sure what to make of Fischer's Mahler recordings ... while I agree that they are better than average, none that I have heard strike me as amongst the best and worth keeping. It will be interesting to hear his 7th when it is released but it will have to be something very special to displace Gielen's, my current 'go-to' recording.


Iván Fischer's Mahler recordings certainly sound more relaxed than some other conductors'. Given that I'm also intrigued by him emphasizing to the players the happy element in the Finale in the documentary. That could make his Mahler 7 quite interesting.

BTW, it looks like the digital download version is already available on Qobuz and Channel Classics' own shopping site.


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## Reichstag aus LICHT

^^^

Off-topic, but I recently bought Fischer's "relaxed" recording of _The Rite of Spring_, and it's excellent; even more so, the paired recording of _The Firebird_, which is one of the best I've heard.

On-topic, I bought a download of his Mahler 7 from Channel Classics' website the other week, and it's up to Fischer's usual high standard in Mahler. Recommended.


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## nospoonboy

Speaking of Michael Gielen. He offers my favorite version of this symphony. I LOVE Mahler, but the 7th is not my favorite. I look for detail, drama, and mystery with a recording and Gielen with the SWF on Hanssler is the one that communicates these qualities for me. I recently aquired Gielen's outing with Berlin '94 on Testament, but have not had a chance to assess it as of yet.

Others that I rank as great versions:
Kobayashi with the the Czech PO on Canyon
Bernstein '85 with the NYP on DG
Levi with Atlanta on Telarc
Horenstein with New Philharmonia on Descant
Klemperer with New Philharmonia on EMI


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## joen_cph

My favourites, already mentioned, are Kubelik/DG and Scherchen/Toronto - Kubelik for the magical nature-rendering, Scherchen for an unusual, but interesting choice of tempi, and expressive ideas.

I don't tend to collect tons of Mahler symphony recordings, but seek out some contrasting ones; I've also got 

- Tennstedt/LPO, 
- Scherchen/WienerStOp '53,
- Scherchen/WSO '50
- Bernstein/NYPO, 
- Bertini/KölnRSO, 
- Levine/ChicagoSO, 
- Abravanel/Utah SO. 

It's been a long time since I did any comparisons though, and Bertini for example tends to be excellent. I tend not to like Abravanel, his style is often rather light for the Romantics (say in Sibelius), but as far as I remember his 7th is quite good.


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## Becca

I have finally had the opportunity to listen to the new Ivan Fischer recording which I had been looking forward to, but I'm sorry to say that I was rather disappointed in it. While is is beautifully recorded with so much detail to hear ... but that seems to be the problem, it comes across as less a coherent performance than a collection of interesting details. I found myself thinking about the criticism of Rattle, micro-managed - 'listen to this', 'notice that', etc. After listening to it last night, I decided to wait 24 hours then listen to the Gielen recording and see if I was overreacting ... so far I wasn't, Not only that, but I think that the Gielen is the better recording from an audio standpoint. I will give it another try in a few days .. probably!


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## CnC Bartok

I am afraid my initial response to the Fischer recording has been the opposite of yours, Becca! I have found he has a wonderful sense of flow throughout the symphony; no he doesn't hang around, and some may prefer their Mahler 7 to stretch to beyond comfortably fitting on one CD, but my favourite recordings are nearly all sub-80-minute performances. I didn't have any issues with coherency like you have had.

I will admit I found the closing pages of the first movement a bit underwhelming, but he seemed to me to have found the tempo giusto throughout.


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## Larkenfield

----------------


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## DarkAngel

Becca said:


> I have finally had the opportunity to listen to the *new Ivan Fischer recording* which I had been looking forward to, but I'm sorry to say that I was rather disappointed in it. While is is beautifully recorded with so much detail to hear ... but that seems to be the problem, it comes across as less a coherent performance than a collection of interesting details. I found myself thinking about the criticism of Rattle, micro-managed - 'listen to this', 'notice that', etc. After listening to it last night, I decided to wait 24 hours then listen to the Gielen recording and see if I was overreacting ... so far I wasn't, Not only that, but I think that the Gielen is the better recording from an audio standpoint. I will give it another try in a few days .. probably!


Yes I also recently got new Fischer M7 (have a few others of this set) and feel basically the same way. Too emtionaly controlled and predictable, polished and beautiful with wonderful modern sound but where is the emotional drama, the psychic conflict, the tonal contrast I crave.......I feel the same way about other new sets like Tilson Thomas SFO series, edges have been polished off and sound images painted in pastels instead of bold technicolor

That said it reflects style of previous releases of this series I have heard, so current fans of Fischer's Mahler will be pleased

The budget price Gielen boxset is much more what I have in mind, nearly as exciting and manic as Bernstein with wonderful modern sound, below nice review of entire boxset:

http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2018/May/Mahler_Gielen_SWR19042CD.htm


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## Kiki

Warm, cozy, cheerful, and very meticulous about how every note is played. Have to admit Iván Fischer’s Mahler 7 sounds a bit unusual, still I find it rather enjoyable, in particular he's got my buy in to a cheerful and playful Finale (as I never see it as a victory or a long-awaited sunrise after a dark night).


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## Enthusiast

There are two Gielen Mahler 7 recordings - both really good - and they are sufficiently different to make it worthwhile having both. I also love both the Jansons recordings (his Mahler recordings are nearly always in my top 3). There are also a few others but those four would keep me happy forever!


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## Larkenfield

Fischer’s performance misses out on the perplexing enigmatic mystery of Mahler’s 7th. My preferred version is Michael Tilson Thomas and the London Symphony Orchestra. I find it wonderfully coherent when so many other recordings lose sight of the whole in the midst of the details. Too many cannot find their way through his journey through the night to his awakening.


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## DarkAngel

Larkenfield said:


> Fischer's performance misses out on the perplexing enigmatic mystery of Mahler's 7th. My preferred version is Michael Tilson Thomas and the London Symphony Orchestra. I find it wonderfully coherent when so many other recordings lose sight of the whole in the midst of the details. *Too many cannot find their way through his journey through the night to his awakening*.


Indeed there are many mysteries and wondrous sights along the way, and I also like the younger MTT performance with LSO, more animated and exciting (good Mahler does need some nearly out of control moments to make the journey more memorable) encouraging repeat playbacks.......

Even earlier M3 also with LSO also shows the same adventurous style, like both of these better than recent SFO offerings.


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## cyberstudio

I had the Concertgebouw blu-ray set, and Boulez had the 7th. Excuse my language, but he was constipating, even though I hold the maestro in high regard in general.

Abbado/BPO was a fine performance, but did not do anything for me, if you know what I mean.

Those, and Solti/Chicago, are all I have, and I love Solti, the opening is intense and dark and the middle movements almost brought me to tears.

Where should I go next? I do not believe Solti is unbeatable. I don't think Mahler could have been serious with the finale, it was perhaps supposed to sound vulgarly bombastic, so anything sounding polite would better be out. What would have started with dark mysteriousness, then vividly portray the countryside before my eyes, and ends with irony and despise? Give me a recommendation, please, as the 7th has this special place in my heart.


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## Reichstag aus LICHT

cyberstudio said:


> Give me a recommendation, please, as the 7th has this special place in my heart.


Michael Gielen on Hänssler takes some beating.


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## Heck148

cyberstudio said:


> Those, and Solti/Chicago, are all I have, and I love Solti, the opening is intense and dark and the middle movements almost brought me to tears.
> 
> Where should I go next? .....


Try Abbado/Chicago - great recording...super playing...


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## Merl

As I've just posted in Current Listening, I played the infamous slow Klemperer account for the first time in years today and found I can no longer tolerate it. The earthy grimness I used to enjoy doesn't resonate with me any more. Give me Gielen any day. Klemperer's 7th won't be getting an outing for a long time.


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## CnC Bartok

I seem to be the only one who has thoroughly enjoyed the new (well, 2015 to be precise, but never mind. It obviously takes nearly four years to transfer a recording to CD...) Ivan Fischer recording. I found the overall sense of forward propulsion was very impressive, and he clearly has a pretty decent band in his Budapest Festival chums. He doesn't dwell on details, but there was a lot of little things that I had really only half heard elsewhere. And he kept the Rondo Finale together, no mean feat.

Then I did what Becca has done and gave Gielen a spin. Bloody hell, he's good! His orchestra is maybe lighter in comparison, but it's not significant. This is tart, raw Mahler, and yet perversely not short on sumptuousness.

A great Mahler Seventh for me will:
Make me well up on adrenalin in the closing pages of the first movement
Make me think NIGHT music, and not Castrol GTX
SCARE the bejesus out of me in the Scherzo. Schattenhaft Is a real word...
Not bore me senseless and never want to hear another effing mandolin in my life.
Hold the episodic finale, where all the stitching is there to see/hear together and conclude this weird and wacky masterpiece with plenty of gusto.

Fischer ticks a lot of boxes, fewer admittedly than my two favourites, Solti and Abbado's earlier version. And I have a new favourite. Gielen. Bloody hell, he's good. Have I said that before?


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## Becca

CnC Bartok said:


> A great Mahler Seventh for me will:
> Not bore me senseless and never want to hear another effing mandolin in my life.


Yea verily!.......


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## Reichstag aus LICHT

CnC Bartok said:


> I seem to be the only one who has thoroughly enjoyed the new Ivan Fischer recording.


You're not alone, don't worry!


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## jim prideaux

Merl said:


> As I've just posted in Current Listening, I played the infamous slow Klemperer account for the first time in years today and found I can no longer tolerate it. The earthy grimness I used to enjoy doesn't resonate with me any more. Give me Gielen any day. Klemperer's 7th won't be getting an outing for a long time.


Years ago Klemperer seemed to have this aura about him.....and yet I recall recognising this 'earthy grimness' in his interpretations-I think it might have been Beethoven-ever since I have stayed away from him although a friend did give me a recording of one of his interpretations of Bruckners 4th-same experience.Needless to say I cannot imagine his performances of Mahler being any different!


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## Roger Knox

It seems everyone likes Mahler's "mad..." symphony, but I haven't so far appreciated no. 7. Next month I'm going to hear it live for the first time. Mahler is a great composer; his style, sense of drama, counterpoint and harmony, orchestral textures, dynamics, and colours are all masterful. Nevertheless:

As a child I went to the city fair every year, where there was a horror ride called "Laff in the Dark" that had tacky screaming sounds and grimacing figures suddenly lighting up or reaching at you. The first movement of Mahler 7 reminds me a bit of that. Commonplace tunes are treated in predictable ways, such as adding a sudden one-note crescendo up to _f_ or _ff_ then quickly back to the original dynamic level. This happens so often that I'm the one that wants to scream. Throughout the whole work, watching the Abbado/Lucerne Festival performance I couldn't get into it feeling no emotional connection. The second night piece distorted the waltz to a point that made me angry. I hope that experiencing the work live will lead to a better result!


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## Roger Knox

Roger Knox said:


> It seems everyone likes Mahler's "mad..." symphony, but I haven't so far appreciated no. 7. Next month I'm going to hear it live for the first time ... I hope that experiencing the work live will lead to a better result!


Had to eat crow for breakfast this morning! The fascinating experience of hearing Mahler's 7th symphony live last night has changed my view of the work altogether. Played by the Toronto Symphony/Andrew Davis; I was in the centre balcony with a grand top-down view of the orchestra, able to see each player. It was emotionally engaging, Mahler's characteristic dynamics made sense as did the absorbing continuity and shape of the work.

On YouTube Mahler's 7th (Abbado/Lucerne Festival Orch.) had seemed choppy and eccentric and I think the persistent use of close-ups, especially of the conductor, was the problem. Yesterday Davis and the TSO gave an admirable performance, notable for its clarity. Although the dry hall acoustics made build-ups and climaxes less than they should have been, the evening still made a great case for Mahler's 7th.


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## mbhaub

Nice review - the only Mahler from Davis that I'm familiar with is a disc of some of the songs. His work with Elgar and Vaughan Williams is excellent, so it's good to hear he has the chops for Mahler. He's no slouch as a conductor of anything I know of. Why he isn't more highly rated is a mystery.

As much as I love recordings and am very grateful for the enormous variety we have at hand, no recording can compete with a live performance - it's not just the sound. There's the visual element, the sense of occasion, and a certain electricity in the hall that makes it special. I'd rather hear a competent live performance by even a 2nd rate orchestra than a great performance with a world-class orchestra on recording. The 7th is so brilliantly scored and it demands the openness and clarity a concert setting can (should) provide. Of course there are details of orchestration that are simply lost in a concert hall that the tweaking of a microphone can aide in recording.


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## Roger Knox

mbhaub said:


> His work with Elgar and Vaughan Williams is excellent, so it's good to hear he has the chops for Mahler. He's no slouch as a conductor of anything I know of. Why he isn't more highly rated is a mystery.


Thanks for your comments. I don't have inside knowledge on Andrew Davis. He was an excellent organist. In his earlier tenure with the Toronto Symphony he was particularly identified with the British orchestral and choral-orchestral repertoire -- prepared his own version of Handel's _Messiah_ and conducted his compositions as well as the mainstream repertoire. Perhaps he doesn't project the gravitas of of some conductors, but certainly audiences appreciate his high-energy approach. Definitely an all-around musician.


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## Heck148

mbhaub - yes, the visual element of a live concert is really vital to the experience....i saw/heard Barenboim perform M7 a few years back...wonderful!! one of the fun things was pick out from where on stage all of the unique sounds were originating...percussion of all sorts, tenor horn, mandolins [ they were tough to find!!


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## brunumb

While listening to M7 over the last few days the thought suddenly came to me that the seventh is Mahler's symphonie fantastique.


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## Oldhoosierdude

Any thoughts on this one? Duggan gave it good marks in his survey of recordings. It is available on Amazon prime for a listen and I sampled the first movement and thought it very nicely done. I plan to make time for an uninterrupted listening.


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## Merl

Oldhoosierdude said:


> Any thoughts on this one? Duggan gave it good marks in his survey of recordings. It is available on Amazon prime for a listen and I sampled the first movement and thought it very nicely done. I plan to make time for an uninterrupted listening.
> 
> View attachment 120022


Funnily enough I asked others' opinions on that Naxos cycle a while back. General consensus is that it's a decent set but there are many better ones. Certain performances are better than others but that is a good 7th and Halasz doesn't hang around. The Wit recordings in that cycle are on the slower side. I know many people rate that Naxos 8th as one of the best. Decent 1st, 5th and 6th for me. The 3rd drags to my ears (but I'm not a big lover of that symphony).


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## Oldhoosierdude

Merl said:


> Funnily enough I asked others' opinions on that Naxos cycle a while back. General consensus is that it's a decent set but there are many better ones. Certain performances are better than others but that is a good 7th and Halasz doesn't hang around. The Wit recordings in that cycle are on the slower side. I know many people rate that Naxos 8th as one of the best. Decent 1st, 5th and 6th for me. The 3rd drags to my ears (but I'm not a big lover of that symphony).


I did listen. To me it didn't stand out enough from my other recording by Abravenel /Utah Symphony to warrant obtaining it.


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## Becca

While I did have a vinyl copy of the Klemperer 7th, I haven't listened to it in a very long time so I corrected that tonight ... ok, just the last movement as I wasn't sure that I could deal with all of it! My impression is that it is a very impressive recording and I can *just* see a rationale for it, and might even listen again ... but still not sure whether I want to tackle the earlier movements!

Regarding Walter, Klemperer and Mahler ... the premier of the 7th was done in Prague where Klemperer was based at that time based on Mahler's recommendation. We do know that both Walter and Klemperer attended many of the 24 (!!) rehearsals. I believe that both Klemperer and Alma Mahler considered the premiere to be 'a respectable failure'!


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## CnC Bartok

Becca said:


> While I did have a vinyl copy of the Klemperer 7th, I haven't listened to it in a very long time so I corrected that tonight ... ok, just the last movement as I wasn't sure that I could deal with all of it! My impression is that it is a very impressive recording and I can *just* see a rationale for it, and might even listen again ... but still not sure whether I want to tackle the earlier movements!
> 
> Regarding Walter, Klemperer and Mahler ... the premier of the 7th was done in Prague where Klemperer was based at that time based on Mahler's recommendation. We do know that both Walter and Klemperer attended many of the 24 (!!) rehearsals. I believe that both Klemperer and Alma Mahler considered the premiere to be 'a respectable failure'!


George Cross/Purple Heart on its way!


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## flamencosketches

I listened to this symphony for the first time last night and really enjoyed it. I was expecting something along the lines of the 5th or 6th symphonies, this was much more colorful. I do feel like it kind of lost momentum in the IV movement, and I can't quite make heads or tails of the finale just yet. But overall I found it no lesser than the more popular 6th, I actually enjoyed it quite a bit more. The recording I have is Leonard Bernstein/NYPO/Sony.


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## Becca

The early Bernstein/NYPO on vinyl is how I got to know the symphony. I didn't imprint on it! Typically with Bernstein he really let loose with the last movement such that it never really seemed like a logical continuation of the rest of the symphony. It was only with some later recordings that I came to feel that it was an integral part of the symphony. (Just don't ask me about mandolins.)


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## mbhaub

Becca said:


> (Just don't ask me about mandolins.)


Often overlooked in discussing the 7th is Mahler's exploring new and different orchestral sounds, the "tenor horn" of the first movement being the most obvious. (BTW - it is usually incorrectly played on the euphonium in US performances). In the second movement he works with choirs of instrumental families - the chords in the bassoon section. In the fourth, it was the unique sounds of the guitar and mandolin that add to the texture, and so different from string pizzicatos. The whole symphony is a delightful demonstration of timbre, and something his contemporaries recognized. It's also really expensive to put on because of those extra players who only participate in one movement.


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## Isaac Blackburn

What I'm about to say may be highly controversial.

Combine Otto Vanska's movements 1, 2, and 3 with Klemperer's Nachtmusik II and Finale.

The key here is Klemperer's Finale. Every other conductor takes it far too fast, resulting in a blazing, disjointed, and chaotic finale. Not only does the quick tempo destroy the internal success of the movement itself, but it also exerts retroactive long-range effects on the meaning of the narrative in the previous movements. The story of the symphony becomes "Night peters itself out in impotence, then Day is thrown in and splendidly avoids consummation of the values birthed in the previous movements."
With Klemperer's tempo, the Finale gains _weight_. It can now balance the Langsam. It can now provide the necessary strength to resolve the introversion and suaveness of the central movements. The symphony is now symmetrical, and the arc consists of a descent into depths (Schattenhaft) followed by an arduous but immensely gratifying rise (Nachtmusik II and Finale.) Paradoxically, by slowing down the Finale, it also loses its sense of repetitiveness, because the consummation does not take place _when_ the Finale bursts upon the scene but at the _end_ of the Finale. The Finale itself becomes a journey, ascending with each repetition, rather than a repeated and unconvincing statement of celebration.

However, it is still necessary for the Finale to be faster than the preceding movement, which is why Klemperer's slow Nachtmusik II is a better choice than Vanska's.


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## Azol

Bernstein/Wiener PO is my go-to Mahler 7.


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## joen_cph

Isaac Blackburn said:


> What I'm about to say may be highly controversial.
> 
> Combine Otto Vanska's movements 1, 2, and 3 with Klemperer's Nachtmusik II and Finale.
> 
> The key here is Klemperer's Finale. Every other conductor takes it far too fast, resulting in a blazing, disjointed, and chaotic finale. Not only does the quick tempo destroy the internal success of the movement itself, but it also exerts retroactive long-range effects on the meaning of the narrative in the previous movements. The story of the symphony becomes "Night peters itself out in impotence, then Day is thrown in and splendidly avoids consummation of the values birthed in the previous movements."
> With Klemperer's tempo, the Finale gains _weight_. It can now balance the Langsam. It can now provide the necessary strength to resolve the introversion and suaveness of the central movements. The symphony is now symmetrical, and the arc consists of a descent into depths (Schattenhaft) followed by an arduous but immensely gratifying rise (Nachtmusik II and Finale.) Paradoxically, by slowing down the Finale, it also loses its sense of repetitiveness, because the consummation does not take place _when_ the Finale bursts upon the scene but at the _end_ of the Finale. The Finale itself becomes a journey, ascending with each repetition, rather than a repeated and unconvincing statement of celebration.
> 
> However, it is still necessary for the Finale to be faster than the preceding movement, which is why Klemperer's slow Nachtmusik II is a better choice than Vanska's.


Maazel also has a slower Finale (VPO), less arresting or frenetic, which I find of some interest.


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## mbhaub

The key to a successful performance is the finale, but to me it's the biggest obstacle to enjoying Klemperer's recording. The first four movements are pretty well done, although i still prefer a quicker first. I don't remember who wrote it, but the finale needs a Keystone Cops treatment to work - it has to move. Klemperer just starts out in slow mode and never gets better. There's no energy, and hence no tension. I can't imagine how the orchestra didn't fall asleep playing it. Around 17 minutes is ideal. Bernstein, Abaddo, Scherchen, Kondrashin, Thomas - they make it exciting and the arrival into the daylight at the end is cathartic. It's really a shame that we don't have any recording from people like Walter, Mengelberg, Reiner and other who conducted it early in the 20th c. Scherchen: I'm not going to look it up right now, but he either played in the orchestra when Mahler conducted it or was in the audience.


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## Axter

Azol said:


> Bernstein/Wiener PO is my go-to Mahler 7.


For me too! 
That was a fine performance.


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## Kiki

I've been listening to a few M7s.

Hans Zender (1982) and Hans Rosbaud (1953) both fall into my "he got it" category. Others whom I'd categorize in this group include Ádám Fischer, Scherchen, Kondrashin and Maderna (unfortunately in the Maderna the playing was too flawed). My ideal M7 needs to be a bit wayward, but remaining introvert at heart. I really like the Zender. The Rosbaud, a bit more wayward, is also great, except his relatively slow and subdued Nachtmusik I.

















Another M7 that I've been listening to is Thomas Søndergård's live recording from last year's Edinburgh International Festival (with no audience), a chamber version arranged by Klaus Simon.

I think the chamber arrangement works pretty well for the inner movements, perhaps not surprisingly because of their original's chamber quality. The big outer movements are a bit strange though, especially the ending to the first movement, which is like a mocking jeer. I'm also not so sure about the marketing mumble jumble of a "slimmer, even clearer, listening experience".

From the Edinburgh International Festival's youtube channel. Judge for yourself.





The download is also available from Linn.


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## Kiki

I have been listening to a few more Mahler #7s recently. Here are two that I really like!










Alexandre Bloch is a young conductor whom I am very impressed with. He was 34 when he recorded this Mahler #7 with the Orchestre national de Lille in 2019. Being young is not a disadvantage, if one is able to produce a fantastic Mahler #7 like this.

His Mahler #7 is fluent and natural. There is only a hint of unevenness in the finale. Otherwise the whole piece propulses forward consistently and perpetually. Dynamic changes are big but smooth rather than abrupt. Pressure and dissipation points are subtly accentuated and well-judged. There is little emphasis on "sightseeing features" but subtle details are still audible and are idiomatically portrayed.

The opening movement is effortlessly driven. Nachtmusik I is leisurely charismatic. Nachtmusik II is unsettling beneath the melodious surface. The Scherzo is fantastic! There are some fantastic roaring and pizzicato attacks from the strings. The strings are the stars here. This is a real sabbath! The Finale is full of fun. I like the glissandi and the crisp timpani very much. It is not dissimilar to the Fischer brothers' "happy" finale in concept. Though there are some passages that feel a bit pushy and fragmented.

Overall, this is a committed performance that is fluent from start to finish. It has easily become one of my favourite Mahler #7s.










Chailly's Gewandhaus Mahler near-cycle is very consistent in its vision of how he wanted these symphonies to sound. It is also remarkable how different they sound compared to his earlier Concertgebouw Mahler.

This Mahler #7, like his other Gewandhaus Mahlers, drives hard, even though it is not particularly fast. The playing is meticulous and glorious. It is even abrasive at times. Despite all that, subtleties and accents are not sacrificed at all. Tempo changes are not extreme. Rather, they are smooth and logical, not abrupt. Overall, it sounds a little bit wayward, which I appreciate in this symphony, but it never goes over-the-top. There is little indulgence in any romanticised idiosyncrasies.

The opening movement is magnificently and furiously driven. Nachtmusik I is essentially an upbeat, light-footed scherzo with a consistent, perpetual pulse and soft, obsessive mystics. The Scherzo goes up another level in charisma with a mystical, hallucinatory character. In Nachtmusik II, we begin to see some light. Crisp mandoline, by the way. The Finale is forcefully festive that keeps obsessively reasserting its aura in a seemingly never-ending rondo. It certainly finishes on a high!

This Mahler #7 is definitely one of the more charismatic ones, but it does not wear its heart on its sleeve like Bernstein, nor does it go nuts like Scherchen or Maderna. There is a classicist feel to it despite its charisma. Upon repeated listening, I am convinced that it is an introvert at heart. Love it. This is now one of my top favourites.


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## Waehnen

Which version of the 7th Mahler Symphony would be your pick?
*
Klemperer/Philharmonia*

or

*Gielen/SWR*


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## mbhaub

Gielen without any reservation. It's extremely well played, the sound is fine and it moves! Klemperer is just dull, dull, dull.


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## Becca

Gielen! 
BTW, I don't believe that Klemperer's is dull but I admit that it is slow and almost certainly doesn't represent what he might have done 10 years earlier.

On the 'oh what if' front, Barbirolli was scheduled to record the 7th with the Berlin Philharmonic in 1971, unfortunately he didn't make it to them


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## HenryPenfold

mbhaub said:


> Gielen without any reservation. It's extremely well played, the sound is fine and it moves! Klemperer is just dull, dull, dull.


The Klemperer doesn't have to be boring if you take the horizontal perspective, rather than the long line; the first movement is ridiculously long, 27 minutes - Bernstein 1966 NYPO is 20.57; Ivan Fischer, Budapest Festival is 20.54 and so on. But the colour, texture and detail is staggering. There are passage where Klemperer teases out the gossamer, chamber-like orchestration in an almost unique fashion.

However, the approach is in my opinion, so idiosyncratic that it cannot be a serious recommendation.

At the risk of falling fail of a non sequitur, I'd say if you find Klemperer's Mahler 7 boring, you don't like Mahler!


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## mbhaub

HenryPenfold said:


> At the risk of falling fail of a non sequitur, I'd say if you find Klemperer's Mahler 7 boring, you don't like Mahler!


I love Mahler and that's why Klemperer's 7th is such a downer. Yes, the middle movements are fine. Even the first to a degree - as I said in an earlier post. It's that finale that is just a miserable slog. I started listening to the 7th when I was very young and my first exposures were, in order, Bernstein followed by Scherchen on that old Westminster recording, then Hans Rosbaud on Vox. The Klemperer was new and on a major label - and such a let down. As it so happens, I know a horn player who played those New Philharmonia sessions and he loves to tell stories about recording with Klemperer - how he'd even fall asleep at rehearsals.


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## Monsalvat

HenryPenfold said:


> The Klemperer doesn't have to be boring if you take the horizontal perspective, rather than the long line; the first movement is ridiculously long, 27 minutes - Bernstein 1966 NYPO is 20.57; Ivan Fischer, Budapest Festival is 20.54 and so on. But the colour, texture and detail is staggering. There are passage where Klemperer teases out the gossamer, chamber-like orchestration in an almost unique fashion.
> 
> However, the approach is in my opinion, so idiosyncratic that it cannot be a serious recommendation.
> 
> At the risk of falling fail of a non sequitur, I'd say if you find Klemperer's Mahler 7 boring, you don't like Mahler!


I basically agree (except I wouldn't go as far as your last sentence). Klemperer's is a great recording that made me hear things in the score for the first time, but it shouldn't be someone's only recording of the Seventh. I do think it can be a "serious recommendation" but with the caveat that this is highly unconventional and, as you say, idiosyncratic.


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## HenryPenfold

Monsalvat said:


> I basically agree (except I wouldn't go as far as your last sentence). Klemperer's is a great recording that made me hear things in the score for the first time, but it shouldn't be someone's only recording of the Seventh. I do think it can be a "serious recommendation" but with the caveat that this is highly unconventional and, as you say, idiosyncratic.


I wouldn't go as far as my last sentence either! It was indicative, not literal.

The important point, in my opinion, is that if Mahler is a composer you like no more than any other, then Klemperer's recording is low in the pecking order, given there are so many great recordings out there. But if you adore Mahler's music, it's an incomparable performance that exposes the marvellous writing and orchestration contained in his seventh symphony.


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## Waehnen

I also want to ask your opinion on the M7/Abbado/Chicago -version. It is strange that I find nothing to criticize. Is there some aspect you do not like on this record? In my ears it is a most balanced reading with excellent playing and great acoustics.


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## HenryPenfold

Waehnen said:


> I also want to ask your opinion on the M7/Abbado/Chicago -version. It is strange that I find nothing to criticize. Is there some aspect you do not like on this record? In my ears it is a most balanced reading with excellent playing and great acoustics.


I find it hard to explain why Abbado's Chicago is my favourite all-time M7. And to be honest, I don't think about the question much!

I suppose starting at the beginning, you have a super orchestra, and a conductor possibly at his zenith. The playing is first class and Abbado's phrasal perception is of the highest distinction. The light and shade and textures in between are realised almost effortlessly. Even though the stylistic chapters are fully worked through, the overall line is palpable throughout. I can't really explain!


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## Waehnen

HenryPenfold said:


> I find it hard to explain why Abbado's Chicago is my favourite all-time M7. And to be honest, I don't think about the question much!
> 
> I suppose starting at the beginning, you have a super orchestra, and a conductor possibly at his zenith. The playing is first class and Abbado's phrasal perception is of the highest distinction. The light and shade and textures in between are realised almost effortlessly. Even though the stylistic chapters are fully worked through, the overall line is palpable throughout. I can't really explain!


Sometimes everything is just convincing. There is no need for thoughts like: "Oh, that´s an interesting solution!" Sometimes everything flows naturally, when the performer, the music and the interpretation come together. Not all that often it happens and it never happens without the basic work and the right timing.

Something similar I have now experienced with the M2/Klemperer/Philharmonia. All of a sudden everything is convincing from the beginning to the end -- and there is no need for me to analyze.


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## RobertJTh

What bothers me most in Klemperer's Mahler 7 is not the slow tempi "an sich" but the discongruity within the orchestra, with some players driving more forwards than others, sometimes even trying to get ahead of the conductor. It happens quite often in the finale, and it shows a tendency of Klemperer going against musicians' inborn sense of tempo and flow, resulting in lapses of concentration and imbalance.
In reviews you often read about the "sloppiness" and lack of discipline in those late 60's New Philharmonia recordings, but I think the problem lies with Klemperer's sometimes idiosyncratic vision, not with the quality of the players or playing.


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## Malx

My take on the Klemperer 7th is, it is a recording that if you are a Mahler lover then you really should hear/acquire it but then again I have always been of the opinion why would you want to buy umpteen recordings of a work that sound the same.

If a conductor has a idiosyncratic take on a work that adds to my enjoyment of the piece then that's fine by me. It is not a recording I play often but when I do it always makes me smile.

The search for the perfect recording of any work is for me a futile one but I revel in the multitude of different interpretations available to us in this day and age and am extremely thankful to live at a time when they are so easily accessible.


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## Heck148

Waehnen said:


> I also want to ask your opinion on the M7/Abbado/Chicago -version. It is strange that I find nothing to criticize. Is there some aspect you do not like on this record? In my ears it is a most balanced reading with excellent playing and great acoustics.


It's a great recording!! Abbado is on the $$, and CSO sounds fabulous....


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## Heck148

RobertJTh said:


> What bothers me most in Klemperer's Mahler 7 is not the slow tempi "an sich" but the discongruity within the orchestra, with some players driving more forwards than others, sometimes even trying to get ahead of the conductor. It happens quite often in the finale, and it shows a tendency of Klemperer going against musicians' inborn sense of tempo and flow, resulting in lapses of concentration and imbalance.
> In reviews you often read about the "sloppiness" and lack of discipline in those late 60's New Philharmonia recordings, but I think the problem lies with Klemperer's sometimes idiosyncratic vision, not with the quality of the players or playing.


I wonder if Klemperer's late recordings show his terrible physical difficulties...he had suffered terrible traumas and disabilities, which limited his physical mobility...


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## Becca

Heck148 said:


> I wonder if Klemperer's late recordings show his terrible physical difficulties...he had suffered terrible traumas and disabilities, which limited his physical mobility...


I am quite sure of it as witness the major slowdown between his various earlier M2 performances/recordings and the one available from a very late concert. All that is why I am certain that his M7 recording does not represent what he might have done some years earlier.


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