# Clearly, Beethoven influenced Chopin



## caters

There are a few Chopin pieces where Beethoven's influence can be heard. But I think the one where Beethoven's influence comes out the clearest is the Revolutionary Etude. The angst of the minor key, the sudden dynamic contrast, the drama, being octave heavy, are all characteristic of Beethoven. And guess what? They all are in the Revolutionary Etude. Listen to it and ignore the fact that it is by Chopin for a moment.






Who do you think would compose such a piece? Was Beethoven your first guess?

Now here is an actual Beethoven piece of similar length and speed for comparison, also in C minor:






Similar mood to the Revolutionary Etude, isn't it? I find it odd for a Chopin piece to sound so Beethovenian in mood. Usually, if anything, Chopin sounds closer to Mozart than to Beethoven. Not so with the Revolutionary Etude. Here are a few other pieces where I can hear Beethoven's influence in Chopin:






Here, there are sections which sound like a Chopin Nocturne in their grace and beauty. And then there are those sections where it goes from sounding like a nocturne to sounding more like the development section of a Beethoven sonata, tumultuous in sound. These Beethoven sounding sections are often preceded by a crescendo, most often to fortissimo. Also the notes generally speed up during this crescendo. Chopin's other minor key ballade I think similarly has those Beethoven sounding sections.






I also think that this prelude sounds like it was influenced by Beethoven:






What do you think? Do you hear Beethoven's influence in these Chopin pieces?


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## Larkenfield

This might be of interest: 
https://www.talkclassical.com/39384-did-chopin-like-beethovens.html#post1311539
I would consider the influence minor though not without it entirely. Bach, Mozart, Hummel, and Field appeared to be much stronger influences because Chopin considered them to be more refined in temperament. He was known to like and even teach his students Beethoven's Piano Sonata No. 12; so he did not categorically ignore or dismiss Beethoven's genius. However, their basic temperaments and harmonic approach were considered to be widely different.


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## paulbest

Clearly Beethoven also influenced Mahler..
Seems Beethoven influenced more composers than any other composer with equal influence. 
All my favs have the least amount of influence from Beethoven, if at all. 
If I detect even the slightest ~~Beethoven~~ in a work, its a big turn off and I reject it.

Your intuition and detective work, might help explain why I do not care for Chopin, never did in 35 years.


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## Mandryka

I wouldn't be at all surprised to learn that this etude was very much influenced by op 111/i.

Which came first, this one or Liszt's Wild Jagd?


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## flamencosketches

I don't hear much Beethoven in Chopin at all, consistent with his own expressed views on Beethoven. However, we have the Fantasy-Impromptu, almost certainly influenced by the Moonlight sonata (perhaps this is why he denounced the work) and I'll give you the Revolutionary Etude. I don't hear Beethoven at all in the C minor Prelude, and certainly not in either of the Ballades mentioned. Which Beethoven did you have in mind in making that comparison?


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## Guest

Chopin wrote so much stuff that one or two pieces are more or less bound to sound like Beethoven. It would happen by chance alone.


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## flamencosketches

Partita said:


> Chopin wrote so much stuff that one or two pieces are more or less bound to sound like Beethoven. It would happen by chance alone.


Still, it's telling that one of the prime examples of a Beethovenian Chopin piece, the Fantasy-Impromptu, is one that he rescinded and never published. He clearly did not want the comparison to be made.


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## Mandryka

flamencosketches said:


> I don't hear much Beethoven in Chopin at all, consistent with his own expressed views on Beethoven. However, we have the Fantasy-Impromptu, almost certainly influenced by the Moonlight sonata (perhaps this is why he denounced the work) and I'll give you the Revolutionary Etude. I don't hear Beethoven at all in the C minor Prelude, and certainly not in either of the Ballades mentioned. Which Beethoven did you have in mind in making that comparison?


Listen to the end of the etude and the end of op 111/i


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## mikeh375

I feel Chopin's pianism is generally quite different to Beethoven, utilising a more developed technique. His harmony was also more chromatic, shifting more key more frequently especially via enharmonic change. Both where of course tonal and some inevitable similarity in progression or texture/pianism is going to happen occasionally but I don't particularly agree that there is a clear case of Beethoven influencing Chopin.
Chopin advanced the art of pianism with his clever, intricate use of fingers and inventive inner writing whereas Beethoven, although wonderful and progressive too (and difficult), in the main kept within a classical way of writing for the piano. I'd also add that Chopin's compositional sensibilities where probably nothing like Beethoven's. I do not get a sense of real connection between them when I physically play their music.


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## Guest

Beethoven influenced EVERYBODY.


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## mikeh375

except Boulez and possibly a few others perhaps?


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## Clouds Weep Snowflakes

I listened to what you posted, it does sound quite a bit like Beethoven in quite a few parts, but hey, he was a key composer in the Classical-Romantic transition, so I'm not surprised.


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## EdwardBast

I hear Beethoven's influence in Chopin's piano sonatas. The opening movements of the Second and Third extend Beethoven's practice of truncated first themes in the recapitulations and codas that do stuff. Not to mention a funeral march slow movement. Of course, this is a very small part of Chopin's work. The rest of the time he was being as un-Beethovenian as humanly possible.


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## Clouds Weep Snowflakes

EdwardBast said:


> I hear Beethoven's influence in Chopin's piano sonatas. The opening movements of the Second and Third extend Beethoven's practice of truncated first themes in the recapitulations and codas that do stuff. Not to mention a funeral march slow movement. Of course, this is a very small part of Chopin's work. The rest of the time he was being as un-Beethovenian as humanly possible.


Beethoven's early works were written in the shade of Mozart (they also met when Beethoven was a teenager and Mozart was impressed), so any composer would borrow from earlier ones; still, I think the OP made a strong point.


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## Becca

EdwardBast said:


> I hear Beethoven's influence in Chopin's piano sonatas. The opening movements of the Second and Third extend Beethoven's practice of truncated first themes in the recapitulations and *codas that do stuff*. Not to mention a funeral march slow movement. Of course, this is a very small part of Chopin's work. The rest of the time he was being as un-Beethovenian as humanly possible.


As opposed to codas that don't do stuff? Pray tell what stuff do codas do?


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## Quartetfore

Interesting thought, though I would think that he was influenced by Field and others of his time.


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## ECraigR

Christabel said:


> Beethoven influenced EVERYBODY.


Agreed. Even people who reacted against him were still influenced by him. I don't think it'd be possible to locate someone who avoided him. Like what Bunting said about Pound's Cantos, you'll have to go a long way around to avoid them.


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## EdwardBast

Becca said:


> As opposed to codas that don't do stuff? Pray tell what stuff do codas do?


Important developmental stuff (I should have said.)


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## EdwardBast

paulbest said:


> Clearly Beethoven also influenced Mahler..
> Seems Beethoven influenced more composers than any other composer with equal influence.
> All my favs have the least amount of influence from Beethoven, if at all.
> If I detect even the slightest ~~Beethoven~~ in a work, its a big turn off and I reject it.
> 
> Your intuition and detective work, might help explain why I do not care for Chopin, never did in 35 years.


You like composers who owe most of their sound and existence to Chopin, but not Chopin.


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## Mandryka

paulbest said:


> Clearly Beethoven also influenced Mahler..
> Seems Beethoven influenced more composers than any other composer with equal influence.
> All my favs have the least amount of influence from Beethoven, if at all.
> If I detect even the slightest ~~Beethoven~~ in a work, its a big turn off and I reject it.
> 
> Your intuition and detective work, might help explain why I do not care for Chopin, never did in 35 years.


But wasn't Szymanowski influenced strongly by Beethoven in the fugal finale of the second and third piano sonata? Think Hammerklavier.


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## Guest

mikeh375 said:


> except Boulez and possibly a few others perhaps?


Now, I'm not sure about that!!!


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## flamencosketches

Mandryka said:


> Listen to the end of the etude and the end of op 111/i


I said I'll accept the Etude as vaguely Beethovenian, not so much the other ones mentioned.


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## paulbest

Christabel said:


> Beethoven influenced EVERYBODY.


Just about, But could we exempt
~~Ravel and Debussy~
perhaps?


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## paulbest

Partita said:


> Chopin wrote so much stuff that one or two pieces are more or less bound to sound like Beethoven. It would happen by chance alone.


This is most likely the truth. Yet did Chopin play, and study Beethoven?
If yes, then the influence is direct and not subconsciously, by ~~accident~


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## paulbest

EdwardBast said:


> You like composers who owe most of their sound and existence to Chopin, but not Chopin.


I really should say,,,Chopin does offer sucha extensive and wide variety of musical styles, ,,he is very creative and offers tremendous beauty in nearly every work..I must detract and go no futher,,lest I look even more ~The TC Clown~~ than what I already look, as The TC Fool.

Chopin is full of beauty, spice, quite a array of stunning colors and poetics...I may finda recording yet, and get back into his music. 
Agree it is odd, that I find Scriabin late, Szymanowski early/middle works fantastic,,,both of whom pretty much *borrow* quite a lot from Chopin,,that I would dis the father of the whole creative process.
Too odd in fact.
My reactions have to do with the conflicts going on twix the old world sound and new composers who have not received their rightful recognitions.

I am like a Crusader ff to liberate a Holy Land,,,but for what?

The Crusades was a fab of the catholic institution to make money.

And do modern composers need a Crusade?
I'll head over to YT for some Chopin,...some of his works are modern forward looking,,,are they not?


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## paulbest

Mandryka said:


> But wasn't Szymanowski influenced strongly by Beethoven in the fugal finale of the second and third piano sonata? Think Hammerklavier.


Not sure,,,not capable of detecting such intricate details,,as I have no musical EDU. But I am sure I could hear , if I listen carefilly. 
I've not heard the sonatas all the way through as yet.,. I will note what you say,,and make a post on my findings.
Thanks for mentioning this quite possible connection.


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## Rubens

The slow mvt of the op 106 is Beethoven at his most chopinesque.


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## paulbest

So I thought,,,well since I've recently come to enjoy szymanowski and his teacher in solo piano, Scriabin,,let me head ove to both master's teacher,,,,Chopin,,as it has been ~~some years~~ (if not decades) since I last heard the great ~~Wizard of the piano~ Chopin, the father to Scriabin/Szymanowski.

Type in Chopin, YT,,,ahh here's something of interest, ~The Ballades~~ from what I recall, they were quite nice,,and I love the title ~Ballades~, Invincible, Poetics of the highest realms..
So I go to the great Russian pianist, Eugene Kissin's finely exquisite performance,,,
right off the bat, first few chords,,,
~~BEETHOVEN~~!!!
I am like **whaaa*

I must stop this vid, get right over to Tc and report my discovery,,
Which is ,
BREAKING NEWS
Chopin may have been influenced by Beethoven~~
Is there anyone else who may have known about this possibility,,is there a topic on this as yet? have I discovered something no one else on TC has of yet, been aware of?

See even I with zero musical training might know things some of you doctors in music may have not known about.

and this is just the 1st few bars,,,the whole entire Ballades might be stricken through and through with ~~semblenaces~~ echos~~ of 
Beethoven's ~~Ghost~~~
Lo and Behold...
This might mean, I get Chopi, via Scriabin /late sonatas, and Szymanowski, both interpreters of Chopin, but free of Beethoven;'s ~~Ghost~~


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## paulbest

Rubens said:


> The slow mvt of the op 106 is Beethoven at his most chopinesque.


No that is a anachronistic flub on your part

, Chopin wrote post Beethoven


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## Larkenfield

How influenced was Chopin going to be by Beethoven when he referred to him as "vulgar", nor did he feel that Beethoven followed the correct principles of harmony, and preferred Berlioz's Symphony Fantastique over Beethoven's Ninth Symphony? Chopin couldn't ignore him, but they really weren't sympathetic in temperament and personality and his music shows far more predominant influences of Bach, Mozart, Hummel, Field and others. Listen to Hummel's 2nd Piano Concerto and it'll blow your mind how much Chopin was influenced by him:

"Although Hummel's music, seen as essentially Mozartian in style, had fallen out of fashion by the 1830s, the A minor concerto nonetheless exercised considerable influence over a number of works that helped to usher in the Romantic style. Frédéric Chopin, who had played the Hummel concerti, drew from elements of the A minor concerto in his own piano concerti. Indeed, it has been suggested that Chopin's concerto is closely linked both thematically and structurally to the Hummel antecedent."






"Bach is an astronomer, discovering the most marvellous stars. Beethoven challenges the universe. I only try to express the soul and the heart of man. -Frédéric Chopin


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## paulbest

Yes but from comments faintly recalled, Berlioz's Symphonic fantastique , was ~~heavily influended ~ by Beethoven..at least from faint memory,,,,I've only hrard bits of that very famous work,,perhaps its time to pay it a short visit.
Yet even if Chopin had this dis of Beethoven,,,subconsciously,,was something there,,,behind his writing desk,,,,was Beethoven's music going through his mind while writing? 
Was Beethoven's spirit in the air at that time Chopin was writing?


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## paulbest

OK now I know what you are saying,,,

~~Beethoven did not have the ~~patent~~ on solo piano, and or/orchestra...
Beethoven was not the~~ Be all End all~~ of the classical sound.


Hummm, not sure,. 
He broke from Mozart's influence. 
His music was the most powerful at the time....
hummm, I'd say Beethoven was the source of all,,well maybe not...hummm not sure. 
I'll let others chime in here,,as I am not sure...


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## KenOC

Rubens said:


> The slow mvt of the op 106 is Beethoven at his most chopinesque.


That seemingly endless slog through an episode of clinical depression? Chopin would have blown his brains out! :lol:


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## Pastoral

The cadenza of moonlight 3rd movement was directly copied in fantasy impromptu, which could be the reason why Chopin did not want to publish the piece. And there was some analysis comparing the first movement of Op 111 to Revolutionary, not all but sections. I have no source for this, though.

According to The Changing Image of Beethoven: A Study in Mythmaking (by Alessandra Comini), Chopin admired/ taught Op 22 and Moonlight Sonata to his students. By the way, this book is fun to read. One revelation I found from the book was that Chopin called Fidelio a masterpiece, in spite of his ambivalent feeling towards Beethoven.


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## hammeredklavier

Larkenfield said:


> "Bach is an astronomer, discovering the most marvellous stars. Beethoven challenges the universe. I only try to express the soul and the heart of man. -Frédéric Chopin


Chopin probably did not say this. It is from a series of letters which were proven to be a fraud. a.k.a. "Delfina Potocka Letters". It includes his view on sexual life and creativity, which isn't regarded authentic by scholars either.
Yes. Beethoven did have influence on Chopin. But it was Hummel who probably had the most influence.

Hummel Fantasy in E flat major Op.18: 



Chopin Ballade in F minor Op.52: 




Moscheles Impromptu Op.89: 



Chopin Fantaisie Impromptu Op.66: 




Hummel Variations Op.57: 



Chopin Ecossaise Op.72 No.3: 




Field Romance in E flat major: 



Chopin Nocturne in E flat major Op.9 No.2: 




Hummel Etude Op.125 No.3: 



Chopin Etude Op.25 No.6:


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## millionrainbows

Becca said:


> As opposed to codas that don't do stuff? Pray tell what stuff do codas do?


At least they don't just sit around all day watching TV and eating Cheetos!


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