# Blind Comparison - Haydn #83 "La Poule"



## MatthewWeflen (Jan 24, 2019)

Hey everybody, here is a set of renditions of Haydn Symphony #83, "La Poule," for a blind comparison without knowing or being influenced by pre-existing opinions of conductors and orchestras. If anyone knows the performances and would like to guess, please PM me for the answers. Otherwise, try to confine discussion to the pieces themselves - what do you like, what do you dislike, and how would you rank them? I will post the "answers" in a few days. Here are the mp3 files on pCloud, which can be listened to online or downloaded.

A - https://my.pcloud.com/publink/show?code=XZhtMv7Z3cxCcn4JHjVppfYvqCczKBXTv1ok
B - https://my.pcloud.com/publink/show?code=XZStMv7Zvzj3y6mM7PXSMIDWKpOsX5TBqftX
C - https://my.pcloud.com/publink/show?code=XZutMv7ZfzFWVrC3lOXxovz1nTDGcSEtDVx7
D - https://my.pcloud.com/publink/show?code=XZftMv7ZlbiQ1iBpwaLvPlaCk7m3dS3UXAK7
E - https://my.pcloud.com/publink/show?code=XZBtMv7ZjQIjf9JpE34ItsJuPU8M9h5cNpak


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## Merl (Jul 28, 2016)

Interesting. I'll listen ASAP.


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

I'll try to listen. A quick sample of the first minute of the five suggests they get slower and slower. I sometimes find it is difficult to like slower approaches when I have just heard a faster one ... so that can make it difficult to give them the credit they may deserve. It'll be good if you can give us a good few days to do all five.


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## Merl (Jul 28, 2016)

Enthusiast said:


> I'll try to listen. A quick sample of the first minute of the five suggests they get slower and slower. I sometimes find it is difficult to like slower approaches when I have just heard a faster one ... so that can make it difficult to give them the credit they may deserve. It'll be good if you can give us a good few days to do all five.


Recording B is very quick up to now (and one of the quickest Ive heard). Started with this one. I'll work my way through all of them over the next few days.


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## MatthewWeflen (Jan 24, 2019)

B is also the fastest I've heard. I am still trying to appreciate Haydn, so I am unsure whether I like it or not. I've never had any particular emotional response to the music, so whether I like it comes down more to whether it makes appreciating structure more or less difficult.


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

Merl said:


> Recording B is very quick up to now (and one of the quickest Ive heard). Started with this one. I'll work my way through all of them over the next few days.


Yes, it is - faster than A but then they get slower and slower. I've listened to A and B now and will give the work a rest before going on to the other 3. I must say that I thought the first movement of B was too rushed but otherwise it was a performance that I enjoyed a lot.


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

I'll add one thing, that this work sounds decidedly Haydn and independent of Mozart IMO. I'm listening to A now.


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

Enthusiast said:


> Yes, it is - faster than A but then they get slower and slower. I've listened to A and B now and will give the work a rest before going on to the other 3. I must say that I thought the first movement of B was too rushed but otherwise it was a performance that I enjoyed a lot.


I agree, B sounds rushed.


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

C seemed boring, but D is a nice pace; classy and smooth holding its head up high.


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

A and E are my favorites.


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

(I just skimmed over the first movements though)


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## Merl (Jul 28, 2016)

Ok.....listened to them all and there's no 'bad' performance but some I much prefer to others. So (in order from best to worst).......

1st - E 
I suspect this is an HIP performance (or is it me hearing a difference in pitch /tuning too?) as the winds are lovely and flit in and out beautifully. Really chirruppy sounds in the final movement and the whole performance flows beautifully. Lots of great inner detail and nice pulse throughout. Strings are firm and resolute. Really enjoyed this one and even manages to make the ponderous allegretto theme interesting.

2nd - B
Although I find the first movement still a little rushed so that some detail is lost (it loses some shock value on subsequent listens) the rest of the performance is thoroughly engaging. In fact, if they'd taken their feet off the gas a little more this would be challening for top spot. Gets better and better and ends with some gorgeous quirky wind playing in the vivace.

3rd A & D

Sorry but couldn't make my mind up about these two so I've tied them, even though they are very different performances. Recording A is a really solid standard length performance. String playing is strong. Good wind sound and a lovely balance of instruments in all movements. The first movement is particularly fine but I enjoyed the whole symphony a great deal. Probably, soundwise, my favourite recording with plenty of space around the instruments and a nice depth. Recording D belongs to a bygone era, to these ears, and speaks one word to me - classy. Lush strings, homogenised winds (the only thing that spoils this performance a little but it may just be the recording) and even though its the broadest reading here it never loses momentum. This conductor and orchestra provide plenty of forward momentum and are as one. Gorgeous strings. This is a damn damn good orchestra. Another pair of enjoyable performances.

5th - C
The most disappointing performance here as there are so many things I like here. The strings have great body (top orchestra?) and weight and the winds are lovely. It's really nicely recorded and the instruments are balanced beautifully. Unfortunately the whole account is a little boring. It lacks pulse and gets heavily bogged down in the 2nd movement. The Finale is over-controlled (as is the whole performance). Makes it sound fussy. Frustrsting.

As I said there's no 'bad' performance here but i wouldn't want to hear C again. All the others were very enjoyable in their own unique ways. Congratulations, Matty, for a really enjoyable blind comparison. An excellent selection of recordings too and a great idea to use Haydn symphonies (noce and short). I'm not a huge Haydn fanboy but i do have quite a few recordings of Haydn symphonies and I dont think i have any of these. Ill send you my guesses anyway but expect me to be miles off the mark this time. Lol


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

One problem is the work - it is an impressive and well made classical symphony and seems to respond well to many treatments. Most of the five here seem accomplished. I'm not sure that I enjoy any as much as the three I have but there are none I would throw out if I had them. It's funny but I found myself putting conductor's names to each (wrongly, I think, for some of the names I chose have not recorded the work and for others the timings didn't match).

A - Lively and with some sense of style in the first movement - and I liked this movement a lot. The rest is less interesting (especially the rather syrupy minuet) but mostly acceptable. I'd be happy to have it but wouldn't search it out.
B - The first movement is too rushed. But after that it gets much better. The middle movements (especially the minuet and trio) are lovely. And the last movement has real panache. The playing has character. I might search out this one - or at least hope that the conductor and players had made a studio recording that is a little less rushed in the first movement. 
C - It starts off a tiny bit mannered (I don't really like the shaping of the opening tune - including when it returns) and lacking in sparkle but the movement builds nicely into something with gravitas (it is, after all, late Haydn - one of the Paris Symphonies). The slow movement is good in a big band way (nice dynamics and shaping) - I suspect a mature and gifted conductor is at work, here. The minuet is genuinely stylish and nicely shaped with good use of dynamics. It smiles a little. The last movement is fine.
D - Attractive and uncontroversial. Well played and phrased and a good "traditional" feel for the idiom. Not as much dynamic variation as some. But the slow minuet is not to my taste. The (relatively slow) last movement works well. 
E - There are nice touches and some fine playing but I found too much of it a little ponderous, sometimes a little jerky (in the way that Harnoncourt - but this is not him - sometimes is with Classical era music) and lacking in flow. Maybe on another day I would like it more? Maybe it would grow on me? There is so much to like about it. I think I know who is conducting although I have never heard this before.

Ranking? 
*B* must come first for me despite the rushed first movement because of what it achieves with the other movements.
*C* might come second as I enjoyed its "traditional" feel for the music or perhaps it should be *E* (despite it not being really my preferred way with Haydn) because of all the nice touches? 
*A* is next and then *D*. But there is nothing wrong with any of them!

My relative appreciation of C seems out of step with other views posted here and I think I can hear why ... but it just has something a little joyful that the others don't have


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## Xisten267 (Sep 2, 2018)

I'll listen to this symphony for the first time this night, in a concert, and have some great expectations for it. Although I lack listening experience and because of this avoid to comment in these blind comparisons, I'm tempted to participate of this one later.


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## Merl (Jul 28, 2016)

Allerius said:


> I'll listen to this symphony for the first time this night, in a concert, and have some great expectations for it. Although I lack listening experience and because of this avoid to comment in these blind comparisons, I'm tempted to participate of this one later.


Sod it, just go for it. No-one's expecting a brilliant critical ananlysis using in-depth knowledge of musical terminology. Just a simple "I like this one / this one is crap / this is ok" will do.


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## MatthewWeflen (Jan 24, 2019)

Merl said:


> Sod it, just go for it. No-one's expecting a brilliant critical ananlysis using in-depth knowledge of musical terminology. Just a simple "I like this one / this one is crap / this is ok" will do.


Hear hear. I'm by no means an expert jargon-user, either. Even a simple ranking is fun to look at for the rest of us.


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## Merl (Jul 28, 2016)

Now i know the answers, its kinda ironic that i paired A&D. Im quite proud of how I did. Shows my ears arent as knackered as I thought.


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

Merl said:


> Now i know the answers, its kinda ironic that i paired A&D. Im quite proud of how I did. Shows my ears arent as knackered as I thought.


We both ranked E. at the top too! That version was very well done I thought.


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## Merl (Jul 28, 2016)

Captainnumber36 said:


> We both ranked E. at the top too! That version was very well done I thought.


I 'guessed' Recording E right then realised, this morning, that I actually own it. Shows you how little i play some of my music. Hahaha. I have D too but I was pretty sure I knew that (although not totally sure). Turns out I was spot on.


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

Merl said:


> I 'guessed' Recordong E right then realised, this morning, that I actually own it. Shows you how little i play some of my music. Hahaha. I have D too but I was pretty sure I knew that (although not totally sure). Turns out I was spot on.


Our ears are good! We should take pride in that.


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## Xisten267 (Sep 2, 2018)

Merl said:


> Sod it, just go for it. No-one's expecting a brilliant critical ananlysis using in-depth knowledge of musical terminology. Just a simple "I like this one / this one is crap / this is ok" will do.





MatthewWeflen said:


> Hear hear. I'm by no means an expert jargon-user, either. Even a simple ranking is fun to look at for the rest of us.


Thanks for the encouragement. Later today I'll listen carefully to the performances and share my view of them.


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## MatthewWeflen (Jan 24, 2019)

My ranking would be B > D > A > C> E. I agree with comments that all renditions are enjoyable, though. There are no disasters here. My rankings are based on sound quality and tempo, for the most part.

I will post the answers soon.


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## Merl (Jul 28, 2016)

A nice mix of results up to now. Seems B is very popular.


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## Xisten267 (Sep 2, 2018)

Here are my impressions:

*A:* A great performance in my opinion, made me see how beautiful this symphony actually is. I would like to have more Haydn symphonies played by the same orchestra and maestro;

*B:* I also liked this one, and the fact that it's HIP made me think that I was listening to this symphony in a solid orchestra of the 18th century;

*C:* The outer movements drag a bit for my ears, and I think that there's something about the sound that I don't like. I believe that this is a regular performance;

*D:* I didn't like this one. The tempo is way too slow and the pianos and pianissimos are too soft for my taste. I think that there's something about the playing that sounds somewhat too "cute" also: the way of playing the Andante of the symphony reminded me of those collections of "classical for babies;"

*E:* A moderate performance I think. The dynamics are too extreme for Haydn in my conception, and I would like that the tempo, particularly that of the first movement, was a bit faster.

My ranking follows below:

*A > B > C > E > D.*

P.S.: I didn't know this symphony until yesterday, and I listened to all the five performances posted here for the first time, so perhaps my comments should be taken with a grain of salt.


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

Allerius said:


> Here are my impressions:
> 
> *A:* A great performance in my opinion, made me see how beautiful this symphony actually is. I would like to have more Haydn symphonies played by the same orchestra and maestro;
> 
> ...


I see where you are coming from with E, good points! I just like the extreme dynamics and more moderate tempo which I feel showcases the class of the work.


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## AeolianStrains (Apr 4, 2018)

MatthewWeflen said:


> My ranking would be B > D > A > C> E. I agree with comments that all renditions are enjoyable, though. There are no disasters here. My rankings are based on sound quality and tempo, for the most part.
> 
> I will post the answers soon.


This is my ranking except A and D are switched. I need to listen more intently before you post the answers, though. I didn't get through the whole thing for any of then.


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## Euler (Dec 3, 2017)

Nice way to spend a couple of hours, thanks Matthew. Disclaimer: I know D but don't recognise the others.

First some general impressions. E has divided violins, big plus in this symphony -- the interplay between 1sts and 2nds is a treat. A-D have the modern "Stokowski seating" with violins grouped together on the left, though in A the 2nds are more central. A, C and D are string-heavy modern orchestras -- colour subordinated to dramatic power. E has gut strings and a lovely wooden flute. B sounds like a chamber orchestra with modern instruments. Personally I enjoy large and small scale Haydn, it's versatile music. If memory serves he penned this symphony before the Olympic Lodge commission, so it was written for a small palace ensemble, then premiered by an orchestra with 40 violins!

In the first movement, all five take the 1st repeat and omit the 2nd. A is artfully shaped: fast but not rushed, powerful but not heavy, though woodwinds lack presence. B has nice rustic strings, but the phrasing is cramped by the rapid tempo. C reaches the heights of A for me, slower but equally well drawn, with a magnificent string sound. D is slow and precise; it lacks drama in the expo before coming alive in the development. E has weird dynamics in the first theme -- the opening bars should be purely fortissimo, whereas here the cadences fade limply before those pregnant pauses. But the second theme is fab with the "stereo" violins and again the development catches fire (can it ever sound dull?).

The andante is my fave movement. Only D and E take the 1st repeat; all bypass the 2nd. E comes to the fore here. Beautifully paced and shaped, great pathos in the sighing antiphonal writing between the violins, yet full-blooded in the stabs of bluster. As for the period woodwinds, too gorgeous. This is D’s strongest movement: a little faster than E, it moves me almost as much, the orchestra dazzling and the conductor in his element. I feel B remains a little rushed and perfunctory here. A falls behind E and D -- it doesn't breathe as naturally, and flubs the rhetoric in places (why smooth out the first fortissimo punches after the fading violas?). C is cruising down the middle of the road but it’s a charming drive nonetheless.

Only a flautist could love the minuet & trio! I'm struggling to remember much. A has a dopey ritardando at the end of the trio. B fares better, more twinkle-toed. C is a bit gloopy. D is gloopy as gloop -- why prolong this thing?! E is nice and nimble and has the numero uno flute sound.

In the finale all take the 1st repeat and skip the 2nd. This is a movement of contrasts, tricky to nail. The flittering compound quadruple metre serves a light sylvan mood for most the expo, before the wild modulations in the development demand an injection of frenzy. D neither dances in the expo nor commits in the development; it’s slow and pedantic. As in the allegro spiritoso, E is middling here -- beautiful woodwinds, underpowered strings and a dearth of fire. C has great presence and nice tempos, but its joy is curbed by a regal poise. A and B gripped me the most, different though they are. A has an easy power and is phrased as gloriously as its first movement. With its much smaller orchestra, B's power requires more elbow and it delivers a wonderful scurrying expo and a development of real ardour. 

I'm not really a ranker (though most people disagree) and I need to listen again to make overall judgments. Perhaps A and C at the top, since their weakest movement is the short third. Then E, which mixes good and bad within each movement except the exquisite second. B next, a strong second half after a weak first. D last and, indeed, least, but it’s still a worthy reading.


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## MatthewWeflen (Jan 24, 2019)

Here are the conductors, orchestras, and recording dates:

A Bernstein NYPO 1962

B Ralf Gothoni Hamburger Camerata 2015

C Munchinger VPO 1961

D Karajan BPO 1981

E Bruggen Orchestra of the 18th century 1999


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## Merl (Jul 28, 2016)

MatthewWeflen said:


> Here are the conductors, orchestras, and recording dates:
> 
> A Bernstein NYPO 1962
> 
> ...


As I said when I PM'd you, last week, I thought D was Karajan straight away (and I did give some clues in my summary) but I wasn't 100% sure. Can't believe that I had to guess E when I have that recording (at least I guessed it right). Must admit to knowing absolutely nothing about Ralf Gothoni but I've now read up on him. I really enjoyed his performance. As I said earlier, great comparison Matty. Many thanks.


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

MatthewWeflen said:


> Here are the conductors, orchestras, and recording dates:
> 
> A Bernstein NYPO 1962
> 
> ...


I guessed E correctly even though I had never heard it. Bruggen has a way with Haydn that I always have a mixed response to. And D, as well - I remember hearing some of Karajan's Paris symphonies decades ago and thinking they were not marred by the excessive sweetness of his Mozart. I'm a bit surprised by A as I have it somewhere. I also have never heard of Rolf Gothoni but will seek out some more now. And I'm not surprised by C but hadn't realised the Munchinger had recorded any Haydn with the VPO.


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