# Listened to Beethoven's 9nth for the first time today...



## Corvus (Aug 9, 2012)

First off let me explain that I am new to classical music. I have been listening obsessively for the past year but mainly to Baroque composers and J. S, Bach. So I thought I'd try out some Beethoven symphonies. So anyway I was listening to the 9nth ...and I loved it. 
Well, all except for the last movement. 
I knew that it was a choral symphony so I expected the singing but not quite like that. I was really getting into the music when all of a sudden it pauses and a big tenor voice rings out making me think, "What the hell?"
Its kind of hard to explain but I felt that it was sort of cartoony the way the singing was introduced. I just kept picturing that bugs bunny cartoon where he dresses in the Leopold Stakowski wig and gets his revenge on the fat tenor. I enjoyed the rest of the movement when there were other voices added to the mix. It was just the male solo that sounded goofy and out of place.
When I played the piece for my friend he had the same reaction. I was thinking maybe its because that solo reminds me of all the times in cartoons or movies when someone is parodying opera that is the voice they use. I don't know..it just didn't seem to belong with the rest of the piece.


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## bigshot (Nov 22, 2011)

The voices in classical works are divided by the range of the voice. Men are tenors, baritones or basses. Women are sopranos, altos or contraltos. Each voice has a specific sound. It may sound strange to you at first, but as you hear more, you'll discover that there is a huge range of expression within those categories. It's just something you have to absorb and process. You have to make an effort and listen carefully.

Some voices are more immediately relatable than others. Here is a clip that might connect with you for the soprano voice. This is not a natural way of singing. It is very controlled and specific. But it allows for greater expression than just plain singing.






The vocals in Beethoven's 9th are treated like instruments in the orchestra. They don't really act the way characters in opera do. Here is an example of one of the greatest tenors of all time in one of the greatest recordings of all time. You won't believe this is from 1935 when you listen to it. Skip forward to about 47 minutes 20 seconds. Wintersturme. Listen to the end of the track. It might give you an idea of what these Bugs Bunny voices are capable of!

http://www.vintageip.com/xfers/walkureact1walter1935.mp3


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## GGluek (Dec 11, 2011)

What you have to understand (and not knowing German makes it difficult for a first-time listener) is that the baritone starts out by explaining what the hell voices are doing in a symphony. It was a new idea, the setting of the Ode to Joy was something Beethoven wanted to do, but wasn't sure how to introduce it into a form where voices had never appeared before. So he worked long and hard on trying to get it to make sense. So first he had the instruments foreshadowing what the baritone would sing by summoning up and dismissing the themes from the first three movements, then introducing the Joy theme, then repeated the process with the baritone dismissing the rest of the music and saying, in effect, let's move on from what went on before, and turn our thoughts to something more joyful -- and then launched into the Ode to Joy proper. I can see where it might be disconcerting -- but it was a solution to a problem, and to the original audience itn had huge explanatory power. Next time, try listening to it with a translation of the words in front of you.

cheers --


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## MaestroViolinist (May 22, 2012)

^I didn't actually know that. My German is still quite terrible obviously.  (And since it's being sung, I definitely wouldn't understand it...).


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## Kopachris (May 31, 2010)

I always wondered what was meant by "O, friends, not these tones!"


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## SottoVoce (Jul 29, 2011)

Kopachris said:


> I always wondered what was meant by "O, friends, not these tones!"


The voice means to do away with the pessimistic, existential music that dominates before the Ode to Joy; and thus begins the rejoicing.


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## mensch (Mar 5, 2012)

Corvus said:


> Its kind of hard to explain but I felt that it was sort of cartoony the way the singing was introduced. I just kept picturing that bugs bunny cartoon where he dresses in the Leopold Stakowski wig and gets his revenge on the fat tenor. I enjoyed the rest of the movement when there were other voices added to the mix. It was just the male solo that sounded goofy and out of place.


A very understandable, initial reaction, I think. But as others have said, it takes some getting used to the way the voices sound. That being said, I don't count a lot of solo vocal classical music among my favourite pieces. And operatic singing just drives me up the wall.

I always thought my appreciation of vocal music was limited to plainchant and choral works, but I've recently discovered the Lieder (art songs) of Franz Schubert and it has made me to positively reevaluate vocal music. Lieder are generally a more intimate experience, as there is only a voice with piano accompianement. You might want to try a few songs by Schubert, from Winterreise cycle for example (Gute Nacht, Erstarrung), to experience just the classical voice. My personal favourite are the recordings by famous baritone (one of the lowest male voices, apart from the bass) Dietrich Fischer-Dieskau and pianist Gerald Moore. Fischer-Dieskau's interpretations are fantastic.

Below is "Gute Nacht" as performed by Fischer-Dieskau, with Alfred Brendel on piano:





This is the same song, but sung by Mark Padmore, a tenor (higer vocal range compared to the baritone), with accompianement by Paul Lewis.





And, lastly, to prove the 19th century not all doom and gloom: Die Taubenpost from Schwanengesang. Again Fischer-Dieskau as the performer.


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## crmoorhead (Apr 6, 2011)

I'll just reiterate that it takes a while to get used to operatic voices. When I was first getting into classical, I was utterly dismissive of opera and found listening to soloists uncomfortable. This is mostly a cultural thing and it takes a while to undo that type of conditioning. I am part of the younger generation and I knew literally no one else that has had an interest in opera (or even classical music), so I had much the same attitude most people my age have towards opera. Including, as you say, the bugs bunny and 'fat lady in a horned helmet' stereotypes.

I found, however, that there are several opera composers that rate very highly among lists of 'all tme greatest composers' (Wagner, Verdi, Puccini etc) and I didn't think that it would be fait not to give them a try. I started by getting a disc of Verdi's Opera Choruses (conducted by Solti) because I found choral work not nearly as grating as opera voices. From there, I progressed to getting the full operas of Il Trovatore and La Traviata (as well as Lucia di Lammermoor by Donizetti) and spent an entire weekend listening to Il Trovatore (I think 5 or 6 times). I've never looked back!

The key for me was viewing the voice as any other instrument in the orchestra and in classical music that means soloists are virtuosi in that instrument. This means that they leap about the place much as any soloist might for clarinet or piano. I still find the concert dress and the facial expressions a bit cringeworthy, but it's easy to ignore that if you are listening on disc. And, while there are several composers that composed opera almost exclusively, there are also many composers of orchestral music who composed spectacular opera - Mozart's operas are his best works, IMO, but Tchaikovsky also wrote several great operas, as did Handel, Beethoven, Shostakovich, Prokofiev etc etc You might also want to try out Porgy and Bess by Gershwin. It's only half opera as you might know it and has some great tunes in it.


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## Arsakes (Feb 20, 2012)

Choral symphony is not symphony. It's an Opera/Choral Work in disguise of symphony!

You should listen to Symphony No.3 'Eroica' twice to grasp the best of Beethoven.


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## Vesteralen (Jul 14, 2011)

Much as I still get the occasional thrill out of different passages of the finale of the 9th, I still consider it, after many, many listenings, to be one of the most awkward-sounding vocal scores in the history of music. I will put up with the awkward parts to get to the great parts, myself. But, I've never lost that feeling in 40 years of listening.


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## Ramako (Apr 28, 2012)

Beethoven has a principle of writing where players/singers do what he wants, not he what they want. This is why his singers sometimes sound like they are being strangled while they sing.


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## peeyaj (Nov 17, 2010)

mensch said:


> A very understandable, initial reaction, I think. But as others have said, it takes some getting used to the way the voices sound. That being said, I don't count a lot of solo vocal classical music among my favourite pieces. And operatic singing just drives me up the wall.
> 
> I always thought my appreciation of vocal music was limited to plainchant and choral works, but I've recently discovered the Lieder (art songs) of Franz Schubert and it has made me to positively reevaluate vocal music. Lieder are generally a more intimate experience, as there is only a voice with piano accompianement. You might want to try a few songs by Schubert, from Winterreise cycle for example (Gute Nacht, Erstarrung), to experience just the classical voice. My personal favourite are the recordings by famous baritone (one of the lowest male voices, apart from the bass) Dietrich Fischer-Dieskau and pianist Gerald Moore. Fischer-Dieskau's interpretations are fantastic.
> 
> ...


It's good we have more Schubert lovers here in TC!!

This song, "Der Hirt auf dem Felsen" would teach anyone how to masterly write for voice, piano and clarinet. The introduction of the clarinet solo on this piece is glorious, imitating the role of the human voice. I love this song every bits..


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## Corvus (Aug 9, 2012)

Thank you for all the helpful explanatory responses! That makes sense about giving myself time to get use to the male soloist. It was quite a shock and I wondered if growing up in our modern culture had something to do with it (a culture that sort of makes fun of that type of singing).
I do like some choral works. I have listened to Beethoven's Missa Solemnis and I cannot get enough of it. The first movement sends chills up my spine.
The clips you all provide were fantastic. I thoroughly enjoyed them. So... I just purchased the itunes mp3 of Rene Flemming's "Oh mio babbino Caro". Absolutely beautiful.


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## Sonata (Aug 7, 2010)

I love the first 3 movements but am not crazy about the 4th either. that said I am hoping I warm to it. Consider in the meantime other vocal symphonies. May I recommend Mahler's second or third...though be aware the third is very long!


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## Vesteralen (Jul 14, 2011)

Ramako said:


> Beethoven has a principle of writing where players/singers do what he wants, not he what they want. This is why his singers sometimes sound like they are being *strangled while they sing*.


Perfect description, Ramako.


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## Vesteralen (Jul 14, 2011)

Corvus said:


> Thank you for all the helpful explanatory responses! That makes sense about giving myself time to get use to the male soloist. It was quite a shock and I wondered if growing up in our modern culture had something to do with it (a culture that sort of makes fun of that type of singing).
> I do like some choral works. I have listened to Beethoven's Missa Solemnis and I cannot get enough of it. The first movement sends chills up my spine.
> The clips you all provide were fantastic. I thoroughly enjoyed them. So... I just purchased the itunes mp3 of Rene Flemming's "Oh mio babbino Caro". Absolutely beautiful.


Fleming's "Song to the Moon" from Rusalka from that outdoor concert from Germany on DVD a couple of years back really floats my boat. (Followed immediately by the music from "Spartacus" by Khachaturian, by the way - not vocal - but lovely. Great concert.)


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## jani (Jun 15, 2012)

Beethovens ninth symphony is a proof that god(Beethoven) has walked on this earth!


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## GGluek (Dec 11, 2011)

Corvus said:


> Thank you for all the helpful explanatory responses! That makes sense about giving myself time to get use to the male soloist. It was quite a shock and I wondered if growing up in our modern culture had something to do with it (a culture that sort of makes fun of that type of singing).
> I do like some choral works. I have listened to Beethoven's Missa Solemnis and I cannot get enough of it. The first movement sends chills up my spine.
> The clips you all provide were fantastic. I thoroughly enjoyed them. So... I just purchased the itunes mp3 of Rene Flemming's "Oh mio babbino Caro". Absolutely beautiful.


If you can relate to Missa Solemnis it almost doesn't matter whether or not you "get" the Ninth. The Mass is on anyone's short list of greatest pieces of music ever written.


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## Dongiovanni (Jul 30, 2012)

To me, the finale of the 9th symphony is and has always been a very strange piece of music. Like you, even after so many times hearing it, the vocal introduction (Oh Freunden nicht diese...) is awkward. The last sentece of the introduction is also very strange in rhythm and all singers seem to have trouble singing it. This is mostly because Beethoven had a very detailled view of what he wanted, and he didnt care if this could be performed easily or at all. There were no compromises in Beethovens view. This goes for all his music, by the way. However, the idea he had for this last movement, I never got it completely. There are other very awkward passages, everytime I hear them, I have this feeling. But of course, who am I to judge Beethoven.

It is well known that Beethoven struggled with the introduction of the choir. It is also known that the poem "An die Freude" has fascinated him for years, and that he must have had the idea to put it to music long before he started the 9th. Beethoven was not religious in a strict way, but his spirituality is all over his music. The 9th can be seen as his ultimate statement on humanity.


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## Dongiovanni (Jul 30, 2012)

If you have just started listening to classical music, I can understand that it is hard to appreciate the voice. I had this also, at first I could not stand opera style singing. But, that changed after a while. Now, some 20 years later, I think the human voice is the most precious instrument. 

Give it some time and I hope you will start to appreciate the voice.


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## SuperTonic (Jun 3, 2010)

The classical style of singing is very different than what you hear in other styles and it does take some getting used to. It doesn't help that the style has been parodied in popular culture (the Bugs Bunny cartoon you mention being a prime example).
However, the style is not just an affectation as some seem to believe. Classical vocalists are trained to project their voice so that it can be heard over an orchestra. There was no technology to electrically amplify voices through most of the history of classical music, and even today amplification during a live performance is frowned upon in most circumstances. So there is a justification for the style.

If you are looking for a way to get into Beethoven you may want to try some of his earlier symphonies. My personal favorites are the 3rd and 7th.


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## neoshredder (Nov 7, 2011)

I don't really appreciate the human voice. At least not the classically trained voice. I prefer instruments and orchestra for my enjoyment. Some of my favorite formats are Concerto Grosso, Violin Concerto, Oboe Concerto, Trumpet Concerto, Piano Concerto, String Quartets, Violin Sonatas, Trio Sonatas, and of course the Symphony. Plenty of music for those not into the human voice.


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## jttoft (Apr 23, 2012)

Just listen to the ninth symphony some more, and after a while you'll see that it - including the finale - is one of the best things ever conceived by mankind.


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

Try this version with 'subtitles':


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## StlukesguildOhio (Dec 25, 2006)

I don't really appreciate the human voice. At least not the classically trained voice.

Well... that goes a long way toward explaining your inability to appreciate certain composers.


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## neoshredder (Nov 7, 2011)

StlukesguildOhio said:


> I don't really appreciate the human voice. At least not the classically trained voice.
> 
> Well... that goes a long way toward explaining your inability to appreciate certain composers.


Are you saying their orchestral works are lacking?


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## StlukesguildOhio (Dec 25, 2006)

I was able to appreciate choral music almost immediately upon first delving into classical music due to the fact that I had been raised in a Lutheran church where Bach was frequently featured and my mother sang soprano in the choir. The solo vocals (arias, recitatives, etc...), however, took some time before I could fully appreciate them. As member crmoorhead suggests, the key is to think of the voice as one more instrument. I was fortunate in that I really came to Beethoven's 9th after having digested the 3rd, 5th, 6th, and 7th... and after having seen an interesting TV program (it might have been Leonard Bernstein) in which a conductor explored the history and the structure of the 9th.

Remember also that your association of a certain vocal manner with your experiences of Bugs Bunny cartoons is not necessarily a failing on the part of the music. Older cartoons were one of the most important and influential ways in which a whole generation of kids were introduced to classical music. This had positive and unfortunately negative effects. I still find myself thinking of the old Bugs Bunny and Tom & Jerry skits when I hear Liszt's _Hungarian Rhapsody no. 2_ and old Lone Ranger reruns when I hear Rossini's _William Tell Overture_. Yet both are brilliant works of music.


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## StlukesguildOhio (Dec 25, 2006)

Are you saying their orchestral works are lacking?

Some are; some aren't. I don't measure the merits of a composer by how many mediocre, weak... or even bad works they composed, but rather by the strength of their greatest works.


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## Vesteralen (Jul 14, 2011)

Based on the original post, I would say the original poster was not indicating a bias against vocal music per se. He was simply telling us his honest reaction to the entrance of the male voice in the finale of the Ninth.

As has been pointed out, Beethoven's vocal score in this work is not particularly, shall we say, _gracious_ for the human voice. There are plenty of wonderful examples of graciously-written vocal music in the symphonic literature that the OP would no doubt come to appreciate in a relatively short amount of time if he chooses to investigate.


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## neoshredder (Nov 7, 2011)

Well at least I know what I want. I don't try to learn something I wasn't fond of before. I got more time to concentrate on orchestral and chamber works. With that said I did buy Monteverdi's L'Orfeo DVD. A pretty good early Opera. I also like some of Vivaldi's and Bach's choral works.


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## superhorn (Mar 23, 2010)

Part of the reason for your negative reaction to the famous choral finale may be Beethoven himself.
His vocal writing here is so awkward,difficult and ungrateful for singers that it can sound downright grotesque .
Unlike Mozart, Rossini, Donizetti,Bellini etc, who wrote so skilfully for the human voice, Beethoven was more interested in the message of his music than the convenience of the singers .
But keep listening to the Beethoven 9th. Don't give up on it . The great Missa Solemnis , which is entirely vocal , is even more difficult for singers, especially the chorus. But it's still one of the most sublime choral works ever written .


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## bigshot (Nov 22, 2011)

StlukesguildOhio said:


> Remember also that your association of a certain vocal manner with your experiences of Bugs Bunny cartoons is not necessarily a failing on the part of the music. Older cartoons were one of the most important and influential ways in which a whole generation of kids were introduced to classical music.


It can seem inconceivable in our modern era of cultural ignorance, but believe it or not, the reason that cartoons made fun of classical music was because classical music was familiar to the average person... Even kids. I can't remember which show it was in, but in one of Leonard Bernstein's Young Peoples Concerts, he plays a few bars of several classical pieces and has the audience call out the names. You can hear an auditorium full of 9 year olds call out "Hungarian Rhapsody" and "Clare de Lune". When I first saw this, I had to run the DVD back because I couldn't believe it. Today, you'd just get blank stares.


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## Krisena (Jul 21, 2012)

As I violinist, I can confirm the sentiments other have given in this thread that Beethoven never really cared for the musicians.


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## bigshot (Nov 22, 2011)

Corvus said:


> Thank you for all the helpful explanatory responses! The clips you all provide were fantastic. I thoroughly enjoyed them. So... I just purchased the itunes mp3 of Rene Flemming's "Oh mio babbino Caro". Absolutely beautiful.


Glad you liked the Callas clip. That video was part of a series I did for the mega-blog, Boing-Boing. They asked me to guest blog about music and cartoons (I work in animation), so I did a series of 16 posts titled "Adventures in Music" which provided a brief taste of a wide range of music, from jazz to country, folk, opera, dance, bluegrass, etc. It was a big hit. If you're interested in browsing it and seeing the clips I selected to represent different kinds of music, you can find a jump page to all the posts here...









*Adventures in Music*
http://animationresources.org/?p=3563

Posts 3 deals with opera and has the Callas clip, 7 has Richter performing Chopin's etudes, and 14 has Milstein performing a superhuman bravura piece by Paganini. It's all good and I tried to keep things fun.


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## Krisena (Jul 21, 2012)

I just now listened to this symphony for the first time too. I don't have the words to describe the experience right now. Give me a break, I need a minute to myself.


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## mensch (Mar 5, 2012)

peeyaj said:


> This song, "Der Hirt auf dem Felsen" would teach anyone how to masterly write for voice, piano and clarinet. The introduction of the clarinet solo on this piece is glorious, imitating the role of the human voice. I love this song every bits..


That's beautiful indeed! Looks like I'll be moving onto female voices very soon as well. Thanks!


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