# Operas with good overtures but not so good operas?



## Manok (Aug 29, 2011)

I was just curious, but are there operas, in which the overture is better than the opera itself? (It can be overture, prelude, or whatever term the composer uses for the intro piece)


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## drpraetorus (Aug 9, 2012)

I've always been under the suspicion that moist of the operas know only by their overtures fall into that category. Pieces like Zampa, Raymond, Poet and Peasant. It would be interesting to find out.


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## Novelette (Dec 12, 2012)

A lot of people find Schumann's Genoveva a mediocre opera, although the overture seems well regarded.

Personally, I think the opera is excellent!

Drpraetorus, Zampa also came to my mind.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

As a non-fan of opera, I think almost all overtures are better than what follows. In fact, I love overtures! They're like symphonies, only bite-sized.


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

The overture to Don Giovanni has better music than the rest of the opera up until Act 2 finale.


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## Aksel (Dec 3, 2010)

This is true for quite a few of Haydn's operas. Especially L'isola disabitata.


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## Bardamu (Dec 12, 2011)

I would never say Mascagni's Amica is a 'not so good Opera' (I'd rank it quite high in my Mascagni chart) however the overture is by far the highest point of the Opera.
It's chilling how moody it is.


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## sospiro (Apr 3, 2010)

To non-Verdi fans _La forza del destino_ is a long and confusing opera, but it has a fabulous overture.


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## MAuer (Feb 6, 2011)

I think Weinberger's _Schwanda the Bagpiper _is a delightful opera, but most of those who have heard about it are only familiar with the _Polka_.


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## Xavier (Jun 7, 2012)

Wagner's _Rienzi_ and Nicolai's _The Merry Wives of Windsor_


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## waldvogel (Jul 10, 2011)

Weber's_ Oberon_ and_ Euryanthe_ are excellent overtures to operas that have essentially disappeared.

There are quite a few operas that I only know from their overtures, which I definitely like... perhaps the operas are good, or perhaps not.

Auber: _The Crown Diamonds_
Nicolai _The Merry Wives of Windsor_
Glinka: _Ruslan and Ludmilla_
Cornelius: _The Barber of Baghdad_


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## dionisio (Jul 30, 2012)

composerofavantgarde said:


> the overture to don giovanni has better music than the rest of the opera up until act 2 finale.


what???????


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## Aksel (Dec 3, 2010)

waldvogel said:


> Weber's_ Oberon_ and_ Euryanthe_ are excellent overtures to operas that have essentially disappeared.
> 
> There are quite a few operas that I only know from their overtures, which I definitely like... perhaps the operas are good, or perhaps not.
> 
> ...


I think other reason than their quality or lack thereof have contributed to the disappearance of Oberon and Euryanthe. Probably Der Freischütz towering importance and relative popularity.

As for Nicolai's Lustigen Weiber, I rather like it, but I agree that the overture is better than the rest of the opera.


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## eorrific (May 14, 2011)

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> The overture to Don Giovanni has better music than the rest of the opera up until Act 2 finale.


Not a Don G fan, huh? Though, you do like the finale?


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## Hesoos (Jun 9, 2012)

The overture to Der Freischütz is better than the opera (I don't say that the opera is not worth it, this opera is nice). This ouverture contains all the best themes in the opera (at exception of the hunters' chorus).

Medea by Cherubini is another case.

The overture to Falstaff by Salieri is very nice too!


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

Bardamu said:


> I would never say Mascagni's Amica is a 'not so good Opera' (I'd rank it quite high in my Mascagni chart) however the overture is by far the highest point of the Opera.
> It's chilling how moody it is.


Fascinating,I have not even heard of this opera. But if it's moody it must be quite good I reckon.


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

waldvogel said:


> Weber's_ Oberon_ and_ Euryanthe_ are excellent overtures to operas that have essentially disappeared.
> 
> There are quite a few operas that I only know from their overtures, which I definitely like... perhaps the operas are good, or perhaps not.
> 
> ...


The Barber of Baghdad is very good and very funny.


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## Bardamu (Dec 12, 2011)

moody said:


> Fascinating,I have not even heard of this opera. But if it's moody it must be quite good I reckon.


Not sure if it is as moody as you  (hope "moody" was the right term, my english kind of suck).

Here if you want to have a taste of it:


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## MAuer (Feb 6, 2011)

waldvogel said:


> Weber's_ Oberon_ and_ Euryanthe_ are excellent overtures to operas that have essentially disappeared.


_Oberon_ is alive and well, occasionally performed at opera houses in the German-speaking countries (and usually in German translation). A few years ago, there was an excellent studio recording in the original English with Jonas Kaufmann as Huon and Hillevi Martinpelto as Reiza.


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## obwan (Oct 24, 2011)

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> The overture to Don Giovanni has better music than the rest of the opera up until Act 2 finale.


I see the 'like' button, but where is the dislike button? Aksel, I'm sure you clicked the like thinking it was 'unlike'???


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## Aksel (Dec 3, 2010)

obwan said:


> I see the 'like' button, but where is the dislike button? Aksel, I'm sure you clicked the like thinking it was 'unlike'???


I actually don't like Don Giovanni very much ... It's my least favourite Mozart. Although that is rather high.


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## obwan (Oct 24, 2011)

yes, but even then its probably his worst overture out of figaro, magic flute, idomeneo, abduction, cosi and clemenza. 
So how could you still say that the overture is better than the opera itself?


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## Novelette (Dec 12, 2012)

Also, all of the operas by Boieldieu. Overtures are great, operas are a bit dull.


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## drpraetorus (Aug 9, 2012)

Schwanda is a very good work. There is a recording but it is out of print.


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

Der Tempelritter (Knight Templer) Nicolai
Richard Coeur de Lion. Gretry.
L'Epreuve Villageoise Gretry.
Donna Diana. J.Strauss.
Prinz Methusalem. J.Strauss.
Der Opernball. Heuberger.


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## Aksel (Dec 3, 2010)

obwan said:


> yes, but even then its probably his worst overture out of figaro, magic flute, idomeneo, abduction, cosi and clemenza.
> So how could you still say that the overture is better than the opera itself?


It's an amazing overture. It has TROMBONES.


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## MAuer (Feb 6, 2011)

drpraetorus said:


> Schwanda is a very good work. There is a recording but it is out of print.


You may be thinking of the German-language version from the 1980s with Hermann Prey, Lucia Popp, and Siegfried Jerusalem (which I have). However, I think the Naxos recording, in the original language, is still available.


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## obwan (Oct 24, 2011)

Aksel said:


> It's an amazing overture. It has TROMBONES.


No it doesn't. Only 2 scenes in act II, the graveyard scene and the finale call for trombones. 
The overture to the magic flute however DOES have trombones.....

Mainly my point about the overture is its good, but its a little long and repetitive, even for mozart. Do we really need 3 repeats?


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## Aksel (Dec 3, 2010)

obwan said:


> No it doesn't. Only 2 scenes in act II, the graveyard scene and the finale call for trombones.
> The overture to the magic flute however DOES have trombones.....
> 
> Mainly my point about the overture is its good, but its a little long and repetitive, even for mozart. Do we really need 3 repeats?


Damn. I was certain the overture used trombones as well. Ugh.

At least it has trombones in the first place. That's more than can be said for just about every opera composed before it ...


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## Vaneyes (May 11, 2010)

sospiro said:


> To non-Verdi fans _La forza del destino_ is a long and confusing opera, but it has a fabulous overture.


More than one, I'm afraid, but I don't want to cause a firestorm.


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## drpraetorus (Aug 9, 2012)

MAuer said:


> You may be thinking of the German-language version from the 1980s with Hermann Prey, Lucia Popp, and Siegfried Jerusalem (which I have). However, I think the Naxos recording, in the original language, is still available.


I have to get that. Last I heard was that the Czeck version had been lost. I always think the original language is best.


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## obwan (Oct 24, 2011)

Aksel said:


> Damn. I was certain the overture used trombones as well. Ugh.
> 
> At least it has trombones in the first place. That's more than can be said for just about every opera composed before it ...







fast forward to 2:35:00 and listen for like 3-4 minutes.

There's also this recording, the musical interpretation of I like even better. 




 Its louder


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

Aksel said:


> Damn. I was certain the overture used trombones as well. Ugh.
> 
> At least it has trombones in the first place. That's more than can be said for just about every opera composed before it ...


L'Orfeo has sackbuts which are way cooler than trombones. 
(although the Toccata sucks)


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## Guest (Jan 4, 2013)

Nobody has said it yet, so I will:

Pretty much every Wagner opera. The overtures are much more entertaining than the operatic parts.


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## Aksel (Dec 3, 2010)

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> L'Orfeo has sackbuts which are way cooler than trombones.
> (although the Toccata sucks)


Sackbuts are awesome, although I'm not sure if they're cooler than trombones. But they're very close, I'll give you that.

EDIT: I want one in any case. I shall call it Gilbert.


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## obwan (Oct 24, 2011)

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> L'Orfeo has sackbuts which are way cooler than trombones.
> (although the Toccata sucks)


Is that Gluck's orfeo & eurodice? Because I had read that it also calls for trombones but i've never been able to figure out what scene, without watching the whole opera, which I don't really have time for. or is it someone else's? I think Orfeo has been set more times than any other subject matter. A composer would be nice.


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## Aksel (Dec 3, 2010)

obwan said:


> Is that Gluck's orfeo & eurodice? Because I had read that it also calls for trombones but i've never been able to figure out what scene, without watching the whole opera, which I don't really have time for. or is it someone else's? I think Orfeo has been set more times than any other subject matter. A composer would be nice.


It's Monteverdi's. Although trombones feature in several of Gluck's operas. Generally when dealing with either hell, sacred rituals or royalty.


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## SiegendesLicht (Mar 4, 2012)

DrMike said:


> Nobody has said it yet, so I will:
> 
> Pretty much every Wagner opera. The overtures are much more entertaining than the operatic parts.


I just knew someone would say it!


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## Il_Penseroso (Nov 20, 2010)

All Rossini's except Il Barbiere.


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## Kieran (Aug 24, 2010)

Fidelio. 

At least I could sleep through the overture, but then I woke up and had to sit through the opera... :tiphat:


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

Il_Penseroso said:


> All Rossini's except Il Barbiere.


The mind boggles as to how you can even think that !


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## Il_Penseroso (Nov 20, 2010)

moody said:


> The mind boggles as to how you can even think that !


The mind boggles as to how you can't tolerate even a personal taste !


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

Il_Penseroso said:


> The mind boggles as to how you can't tolerate even a personal taste !


The question was regarding good overtures to not so good operas. If you think that "La Cenerentola" and "L'Italiana In Algeri" for instance are not good operas then yes my mind boggles ,and that's my personal opinion . Although of course you can say what you want,but then so can I.


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## Chi_townPhilly (Apr 21, 2007)

*From the "Chi" archives...*

Have a look here...

and here.


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## tgtr0660 (Jan 29, 2010)

I would never mention Don Giovanni. In fact i think it is the exact opposite: a great opera with a so-so overture (a much inferior one compared to most of his other overtures). 

Schumann's Genoveva usually is mentioned as an "overture-only" opera but I just recently heard the Harnoncourt entire recording and disagree. The overture is great, but the opera that follows isn't far behind. 

Wagner's Rienzi might be a better choice. Great overture, ok opera. But Beethoven's Fidelio is the perfect example of a great overture followed by a mediocre work. Ludwig tried so hard with the overtures and gave us a few great ones (and a masterpiece in Leonora # 3) but the actual opera would have died in obscurity if it hadn't had the name "Beethoven" attached to it.


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## MAuer (Feb 6, 2011)

tgtr0660 said:


> But Beethoven's Fidelio is the perfect example of a great overture followed by a mediocre work. Ludwig tried so hard with the overtures and gave us a few great ones (and a masterpiece in Leonora # 3) but the actual opera would have died in obscurity if it hadn't had the name "Beethoven" attached to it.


Them's fightin' words . . . :scold:


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## Il_Penseroso (Nov 20, 2010)

moody said:


> The question was regarding good overtures to not so good operas. If you think that "La Cenerentola" and "L'Italiana In Algeri" for instance are not good operas then yes my mind boggles ...


Yes, I've found most of the bel-canto operas boring and musically poor, and it's just a personal point of view ! It's a matter of taste ! No more no less ! Nothing challengable ! Even when Schumann says: _"Whenever I hear people speaking about taking the audience into consideration about Rossini's school being consolers and saviors, my fingers just itch !"_ or _"The first two chords of Beethoven's Eroica ... contain more melody than ten melodies by Bellini !"_



moody said:


> and that's my personal opinion . Although of course you can say what you want,but then so can I.


And your opinion will be respected of course, if you try to say it more gently. Saying something like "The mind boggles as to how you can even think so" works nothing but ruining all the good atmosphere between two people.


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

Il_Penseroso said:


> Yes, I've found most of the bel-canto operas boring and musically poor, and it's just a personal point of view ! It's a matter of taste ! No more no less ! Nothing challengable ! Even when Schumann says: _"Whenever I hear people speaking about taking the audience into consideration about Rossini's school being consolers and saviors, my fingers just itch !"_ or _"The first two chords of Beethoven's Eroica ... contain more melody than ten melodies by Bellini !"_


It's interesting you say that. I'm listening to I Puritani at the moment and I too am finding it a little dull. I find myself zoning out a lot and when I zone back in it still sounds roughly the same. Bellini is definitely low on my list of favourite composers.

Rossini is different. Although I'm not that keen on L'Italiana in Algieri, I do love Cenerentola.


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## Il_Penseroso (Nov 20, 2010)

mamascarlatti said:


> It's interesting you say that. I'm listening to I Puritani at the moment and I too am finding it a little dull. I find myself zoning out a lot and when I zone back in it still sounds roughly the same. Bellini is definitely low on my list of favourite composers.
> 
> Rossini is different. Although I'm not that keen on L'Italiana in Algieri, I do love Cenerentola.


Yes it is, I've always had problem listening to a Bellini opera from beginning to end and it still fails whenever I give it a try. Probably because I don't like Clichés ! 

I like Rossini's Guillaume Tell. Though never had a chance to get a complete version, but listening to some excerpts I can say that grand-opera is much better than his former italian operas. Besides, I love all Rossini's overtures regarding the question of the thread. They're pure music and full of inspiration !


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Good news. If you listen to the Leonore Overture #3, then there is no reason to sit through the rather tedious opera.


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

KenOC said:


> Good news. If you listen to the Leonore Overture #3, then there is no reason to sit through the rather tedious opera.


I just sat through the opera and found it decidedly not tedious. No trouble getting to the end.


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

Il_Penseroso said:


> Yes it is, I've always had problem listening to a Bellini opera from beginning to end and it still fails whenever I give it a try. Probably because I don't like Clichés !
> 
> I like Rossini's Guillaume Tell. Though never had a chance to get a complete version, but listening to some excerpts I can say that grand-opera is much better than his former italian operas. Besides, I love all Rossini's overtures regarding the question of the thread. They're pure music and full of inspiration !


Good. I'm going to abandon Puritani tonight and listen to Guillaume Tell (the only version I have) instead.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

mamascarlatti said:


> I just sat through the opera and found it decidedly not tedious. No trouble getting to the end.


Yeah, but it took me less time. More time to listen to Lothar and the Hand People.


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## Il_Penseroso (Nov 20, 2010)

mamascarlatti said:


> Good. I'm going to abandon Puritani tonight and listen to Guillaume Tell (the only version I have) instead.


Then let me know the result after switching from Bellini to Rossini.


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

Going much better. This one is a keeper!


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

Il_Penseroso said:


> Yes, I've found most of the bel-canto operas boring and musically poor, and it's just a personal point of view ! It's a matter of taste ! No more no less ! Nothing challengable ! Even when Schumann says: _"Whenever I hear people speaking about taking the audience into consideration about Rossini's school being consolers and saviors, my fingers just itch !"_ or _"The first two chords of Beethoven's Eroica ... contain more melody than ten melodies by Bellini !"_
> 
> And your opinion will be respected of course, if you try to say it more gently. Saying something like "The mind boggles as to how you can even think so" works nothing but ruining all the good atmosphere between two people.


Perhaps you would be good enough not to give me instruction of this kind.
If your feelings have been hurt I am of course deeply troubled.


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## Il_Penseroso (Nov 20, 2010)

mamascarlatti said:


> Going much better. This one is a keeper!


I think you still need something stronger !


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## Il_Penseroso (Nov 20, 2010)

moody said:


> Perhaps you would be good enough not to give me instruction of this kind.
> If your feelings have been hurt I am of course deeply troubled.


Just forget all about it dear mate


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## Bardamu (Dec 12, 2011)

mamascarlatti said:


> It's interesting you say that. I'm listening to I Puritani at the moment and I too am finding it a little dull. I find myself zoning out a lot and when I zone back in it still sounds roughly the same. Bellini is definitely low on my list of favourite composers.
> 
> Rossini is different. Although I'm not that keen on L'Italiana in Algieri, I do love Cenerentola.


Natalie, check La sonnambula if you haven't yet


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

Bardamu said:


> Natalie, check La sonnambula if you haven't yet


Yes, I've seen a couple of productions but not listened to any recordings . And I quite like _I Capuleti e Montecchi_ and _Norma_. But overall I can take it or leave Bellini - would not be upset if I never heard another note he wrote, with the exception of Montsy here:


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