# Debussy - La Mer



## psicorp

This is most likely my favorite ever.
Just so rich and so beautiful, tons of nice melodies and harmonies.

Takes me away.

I dunno really I just love it.

Any other opinions on it?


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## ChamberNut

It is one of my favorite DeBussy works also. Very picturesque music, I remember I was really amazed the first time I heard it.

That being said, it is an acquired taste. Not everyone likes DeBussy's music. It is quite unique and stands out.


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## Ephemerid

Oh, I love it! (Debussy and Bach are my two top favourite composers)

Very textural-- its funny because Debussy is difficult for newcomers to listen to, but not in the same way that listening to Schoenberg is-- its the *subtlety *that escapes a lot of listeners (hence the lame accusations of Debussy "lacking melody"). I confess that La Mer took me longer to deeply appreciate than many of his other orchestral works (I'm still not as familiar with Jeux as I would like to be also).

Historically, when this work was premiered, La Mer was not as well received by audiences & critics as Pelleas et Melisande, The Afternoon of a Faun, or the Nocturnes. Critics tried to pin Debussy down as an "impressionist" and there was really no such thing (at least as far as Debussy was concerned). Critics really blasted him on lack of form (meaning sticking to traditional Germanic based sonata allegro form, etc.), but I think what Debussy was trying to convey was the very formlessness of the ocean itself, so melodies drift in and out and morph into new ones.

Boulez's 1995 DG recording is the best one of La Mer out there IMO-- he doesn't go overboard with the lush harmonies, he pulls back just a little bit (I dislike it when Debussy is made too "schmaltzy").

The Afternoon of the Faun is my Debussy piece (though I prefer Tilson Thomas' recording for that-- it clocks in at just over 11 minutes!). I have most of Debussy's major works on CD (Pelleas, orchestral, piano, some other vocal pieces, chamber works).

A vastly underrated composer.

~ josh

p.s. Damn! Now I need to listen to it again!


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## Kurkikohtaus

Anyone ever heard of the Belgian composer *Paul Gilson*?

He was born in 1865 (a good year for composer births).

Like Debussy, he also wrote a piece called *La Mer*, his is in 4 mvmts:

Lever de soleil
Chants et Danses de Matelots
Crepuscule
Tempetes
Like Debussy, there is some use of whole-tone scales and non-functional harmony. Gilson's forms are a little more sprawling than Debussy's, and his motivic material is a little less memorable...

... but ...

_Gilson wrote his *La Mer* in 1891, a full *12 years* before Debussy's._

I find this remarkable, and even more remarkable is that so few people know about this.


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## Mark Harwood

La Mer is one of the pieces that first got me interested in orchestral music, and 30-odd years on I still think it's a bit special. It's true, though: Debussy's music seems to sound a little cheesy when it's done wrongly. It amazes me that any orchestra can do justice to such a strange composition.
That said, you'll often find his Nocturnes on the same disc, and I like them even more. 
This Gilson chap looks interesting - thanks, Kurkikohtaus.


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## Ephemerid

Kurkikohtous, no I've never heard of Paul Gilson... I just googled him and Naxos has a recording of it. I'll have to check that out. 

Debussy's Nocturnes were my first exposure to his orchestra music. It was love at first hearing. 

Yes, Debussy can be very easily schmaltzified or worse by a performer or an ensemble very easily. Last year I completed my Debussy collection after spending a ton of money with a bit of trial and error, and my chief complaint is overly lush, romantic "schmaltzy" interpretations-- like cheesy soundtrack music. And so a lot of people get a very wrong image of what Debussy's music is really like... But when he's done right-- oh wow!!!! 

~ josh


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## music17

The first movement of La Mer is my favorite. I love Debussy's Nocturnes and Iberia.


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## Kurkikohtaus

*fool on the hill*, before you go out and spend your hard earned cash on a _Gilson_ CD, I must warn that I can't _really_ recommend his _La Mer "Jr."_ as a piece in-and-of-itself that will keep you coming back for repeated listenings.

I find it interesting only in terms of the _comparison_ to Debussy's _La Mer_. On its own, it's more like a little pond trying to be an ocean.


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## lmd

" La Mer "a hedonist indeed, this was his finest orchesteral achivement for me, more vigorous than L'Apres-midi he portrays an exquisite harmonic sense.The intensity he creates with his polyphonic textures are incredibly original,& to think it all came about during his "escape" to Eastbourne!


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## Ephemerid

Kurkikohtaus said:


> On its own, it's more like a little pond trying to be an ocean.


LOL Well, at least the Naxos discs are inexpensive!

~ josh


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## psicorp

Hey guys thanks for your replies.

I recently heard the new 2007 recording with Yannick Nezet as the conductor, and it is mindblowing.
The recording and performance is perfect to my taste.

Just a heads up to anyone who loves this work.


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## EricIsAPolarBear

What do people think of the karajan performance of la mer. it is the only one i have, and given that you guys say that performances of la mer are inconsistent, i'm curious to know how it stacks up in your opinion.

for the record, i think it's brilliant, but as i ahve none to compare it to....


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## Frasier

Performance will always be a "problem" with this and related works - Jeux, Iberia... because Debussy's scoring, dynamics, articulations and tempi are delicate. He'll touch in a note on some instrument to get just the effect he wants. Changing the (orchestral) balance or tempi are therefore easy for an interpreter but may be ineffective, even offensive to some ears!

I'm happy with Previn's La Mer and Iberia [EMI]; Abbado with Nocturnes [DG]. But it's really down to preference. I haven't heard Karajan's rendering of La Mer. Maybe they have it in the library.


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## Celloman

*Wow!*

There's a passage for four cello parts in the middle of the first movement. It sends shivers up my spine every time I hear it! So lush and rich, it makes me want to cry.

The Munch recording on Living Stereo is the recording I have. Beautifully done.


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## BennyDJazz

I actually heard the RCO play this piece in San Francisco earlier tonight. Previously, I had been unmoved and unimpressed by what seemed to me to be an overly romanticized tone poem. After hearing the best performance of this piece I have ever heard tonight, I have changed my opinion. There are still many pieces that rank higher on my list than _La Mer_ but now I understand what all the fuss is about. The lush orchestration and moving string passages are very powerful if you _allow_ them to move you. And that was the key for me to get over my distaste for _La Mer_. Hearing it live forced me to engage in a way that is possible to ignore when listening to a CD or MP3. Hearing the waves brought to life musically and seeing them brought to life visually (in the bowing) is really wonderful when you're immersed in it.

I'm going to try to give recorded versions another shot.


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## G-string

i thought that the piece was very cras and clichéd distinctly average if you ask me


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## Frasier

Perhaps you could quote examples of the clichés. Debussy seemed to avoid those established by people like de Joncières and Gilson prior to his rendering. Its effectiveness also depends on fine details of performance, very easy to mess up by letting the balance go awry; a few conductors take liberties trying to "bring out" detail meant to be left where it was, then missing other points of finesse.


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## shsherm

The Concertgebouw also played La Mer in LA on 1-29-08 and I thought they were terrific and made the music come alive. On the other hand the next night they played Mahler 5th and I thought that Mariss Jansons's tempos were too slow for my tastes and when I heard the Chicago Symphony play it in 1970, I thought no one could play it any better.


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## World Violist

I have this in score! (with the Nocturnes and Prelude a l'apres-midi d'un faune - astounding pieces in their own right) Amazing music, I couldn't expect less from Debussy.


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## Harold75

Wasn't there some part of this piece (a fanfare-like section in the last movement) which Debussy removed after the first performance because someone commented that it sounded like Puccini, which Debussy hated? I would've liked to see what it sounded like in it's orginal "true" form.
I like how Debussy kinda carves his own path in music theory in this piece, sort of just making his own modalities and freely using all different kinds of seventh chords (especially dominant and minor sevenths).


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## johnfkavanagh

For a piece that genuinely bears comparison with the Debussy, try Frank Bridge's _The Sea_.


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## PeterPowerPop

Kurkikohtaus said:


> Anyone ever heard of the Belgian composer *Paul Gilson*?
> 
> He was born in 1865 (a good year for composer births).
> 
> Like Debussy, he also wrote a piece called *La Mer*, his is in 4 mvmts:
> 
> Lever de soleil
> Chants et Danses de Matelots
> Crepuscule
> Tempetes
> Like Debussy, there is some use of whole-tone scales and non-functional harmony. Gilson's forms are a little more sprawling than Debussy's, and his motivic material is a little less memorable...
> 
> ... but ...
> 
> _Gilson wrote his *La Mer* in 1891, a full *12 years* before Debussy's._
> 
> I find this remarkable, and even more remarkable is that so few people know about this.


*Gilson: The Sea (La Mer)*, Symphonic Sketches (1891)

*Moscow Symphony Orchestra / Frédéric Devreese*
Marco Polo 8.223809

_1st movement: Sunrise_





_2nd movement: Sailor's Dance_





_3rd movement: Twilight (part 1)_





_3rd movement: Twilight (part 2)_





_4th movement: Storm_


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## PeterPowerPop

johnfkavanagh said:


> For a piece that genuinely bears comparison with the Debussy, try Frank Bridge's _The Sea_.


*Bridge: The Sea, H 100* (Suite for Orchestra) (1910-11)

*BBC National Orchestra of Wales / Richard Hickox*
Chandos CHAN 10012 (_Bridge: Orchestral Works, Vol. 2_)
_or_
Chandos CHAN 10729 (_Bridge: Orchestral Works - The Collector's Edition_) (6 CD)

_1 of 2_





_2 of 2_


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## Sloe

Kurkikohtaus said:


> *fool on the hill*, before you go out and spend your hard earned cash on a _Gilson_ CD, I must warn that I can't _really_ recommend his _La Mer "Jr."_ as a piece in-and-of-itself that will keep you coming back for repeated listenings.
> 
> I find it interesting only in terms of the _comparison_ to Debussy's _La Mer_. On its own, it's more like a little pond trying to be an ocean.


Since it was written and premiered first it should really be La Mer Sr.
Paul Gilson´s La Mer is really beautiful and as enjoyable as many works in the standard repertoire.
I think Paul


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## Animal the Drummer

EricIsAPolarBear said:


> What do people think of the karajan performance of la mer. it is the only one i have, and given that you guys say that performances of la mer are inconsistent, i'm curious to know how it stacks up in your opinion.
> 
> for the record, i think it's brilliant, but as i ahve none to compare it to....


Depends to some extent which recording you have. He recorded it both for EMI and later for DG. The EMI version is the best I've ever heard anywhere, whereas the DG version - while still very fine - comes across to me as just a touch over-cerebral.


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## MarkW

Quick question: Boulez recorded it with the Cleveland Orchestra for Columbia in the early 1970s -- and it was really good. A similar Boulez/Cleveland performance came out on DGG in the '90s. Is it the same performance or a re-recording?


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## Pugg

MarkW said:


> Quick question: Boulez recorded it with the Cleveland Orchestra for Columbia in the early 1970s -- and it was really good. A similar Boulez/Cleveland performance came out on DGG in the '90s. Is it the same performance or a re-recording?


Different recordings as far as I know.


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## lextune

"La mer again; shall I ever tire of listening to it, of contemplating it and breathing its atmosphere? And each time is like the first time! An enigma, a miracle of natural reproduction; no, even more than that, sheer magic!" -Sviatoslav Richter

Along with The Ring, and St. Matthew Passion, Richter loved La mer more than any other music.

I love it too. So very much. Magic. Miraculous. Beautiful. Wondrous. Amazing...


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## chalkpie

Pugg said:


> Different recordings as far as I know.


Definitely different recordings. All of those DG recordings are newer compared to the recordings he made on the Sony set. Both great!


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## lextune

Incidentally, Richter's favorite interpretation of La mer, was by Désormière.

De l'aube à midi sur la mer - 




Jeux de vagues - 




Dialogue du vent et de la mer - 




....I prefer Bernstein, or Boulez, or Monteux, to be honest, but it is a powerful interpretation nonetheless: and interesting to listen to as Richter's preferred version.


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## Manxfeeder

Looking back at the posts from 2007, it's kind of sad how many of those posters aren't here anymore. 

I didn't understand Debussy until I heard Jean Martinon's recording of La Mer. That opened up the composer. So I have a soft spot for the Martinon recording; it's less about notes and more about atmosphere. 

The cello section in the first movement has already been mentioned, but just to reiterate, 16 cellos! Woo-hoo!


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## Guest

Manxfeeder said:


> Looking back at the posts from 2007, it's kind of sad how many of those posters aren't here anymore.
> 
> I didn't understand Debussy until I heard Jean Martinon's recording of La Mer. That opened up the composer. So I have a soft spot for the Martinon recording; it's less about notes and more about atmosphere.
> 
> The cello section in the first movement has already been mentioned, but just to reiterate, 16 cellos! Woo-hoo!


Ligeti was full of praise for the Ansermet recording of La Mer.I have not heard it yet.:tiphat:


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## starthrower

I have the Martinon recording, which I like a lot. The first one I bought 32 years ago is Slatkin/St Louis Symphony on Telarc. And I also have Ormandy's on Sony. I liked it right off at age 22, even if I really couldn't grasp what was going on.


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## chalkpie

Manxfeeder said:


> Looking back at the posts from 2007, it's kind of sad how many of those posters aren't here anymore.
> 
> I didn't understand Debussy until I heard Jean Martinon's recording of La Mer. That opened up the composer. So I have a soft spot for the Martinon recording; it's less about notes and more about atmosphere.
> 
> The cello section in the first movement has already been mentioned, but just to reiterate, 16 cellos! Woo-hoo!


Beautiful recording - I agree totally. That said, Boulez brings something to the party as well.


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## chalkpie

Traverso said:


> Ligeti was full of praise for the Ansermet recording of La Mer.I have not heard it yet.:tiphat:


Did not know this - will investigate - cheers.


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## starthrower

Just looked up La Mer in my Third Ear Guide. They give the axe to a bunch of recordings, but Ansermet, Martinon, Munch (Boston 1956) and Tilson Thomas made the cut. The Munch is in stereo, so I'll have give it a listen.


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## realdealblues

I personally think there really are a lot of wonderful La Mer recordings: Ansermet, Munch, Martinon, Reiner, Boulez, Toscanini, Karajan, Bernstein, Haitink, Beinum, Inghelbrecht, Paray, Denève...just to name a few.


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## Heck148

realdealblues said:


> I personally think there really are a lot of wonderful La Mer recordings: Ansermet, Munch, Martinon, Reiner, Boulez, Toscanini, Karajan, Bernstein, Haitink, Beinum, Inghelbrecht, Paray, Denève...just to name a few.


Toscanini, Reiner and Boulez are tops for me. Haven't heard Martinon...I'm sure it's excellent.


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## Manxfeeder

chalkpie said:


> Beautiful recording - I agree totally. That said, Boulez brings something to the party as well.


Well, son of a gun; I have that one in the Debussy Edition box set. I haven't paid much attention to it, for some unknown reason. I'll remedy that tonight.


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## Vaneyes

Philharmonia/Cantelli (EMI, rec.1954); Philharmonia/Boulez (Sony, rec.1966); OSM/Dutoit (Decca, rec.1989).


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## Manxfeeder

Vaneyes said:


> Philharmonia/Cantelli (EMI, rec.1954)


I forgot about Cantelli. He's up next after Boulez.


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## Vaneyes

I forgot in my earlier post to add something for the SACD/Hybrid (rec. 2004/5) crowd. :tiphat:

http://bis.se/conductors/lan-shui/seascapes

Related:

http://www.sa-cd.net/showtitle/4557

http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2007/July07/Seascapes_BISSACD1447.htm


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## Brahmsian Colors

My favorite recordings of La Mer:

Munch/Boston Symphony, Tilson Thomas/Philharmonia Orchestra(Nocturnes on same record is very fine), Martinon/Orchestra of the French National Radio & TV (box set of Debussy), Van Beinum/Amsterdam Concertgebouw.
All vinyl lps.


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