# Haydn ain't Handel



## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

OK, maybe some Haydn fan will throw stones at me, but so be it.

I've just finished watching Haydn's _Il Mondo della Luna_ and I'm utterly disappointed. This is the first opera by Haydn I've ever seen, and I saw it one day after Handel's _Rinaldo, _which contains some very sublime music, thus increasing the detrimental comparison.

While I found _Il Mondo della Luna _to be very modern and clever in terms of content and theatrical impact, musically speaking and judging by this confessedly limited sample (unlike my familiarity with several of Handel's operas) I believe that Haydn was several notches below his elder Handel, at least in terms of operatic mastery.

Opinions?


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## Webernite (Sep 4, 2010)

I think that's a pretty widely held view.


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## Herkku (Apr 18, 2010)

I feel guilty for not having warned you! I have heard eight of Haydn's operas conducted by Dorati, Il Mondo della luna being one of them. They were composed for the aristocratic Esterházy family to be performed in their private theater and that probably accounts for their musical simplicity. Haydn just didn't have the best singers at his disposal. There are some gems, though, like the trio for three sopranos in L'Incontro improvviso.


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## Aramis (Mar 1, 2009)

But Haydn is not considered to be opera composer while Handel is, to some extent - his operas are considered (by academics ) to be among his greatest achievements. With Haydn it's diffrent.

So I would say you got wrong attitude, it's like you would create thread "Wagner ain't Beethoven" and say that you're disappointed with Wagner's symphony and that it's no match for Beethoven's.


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## emiellucifuge (May 26, 2009)

May I just add I was so dissapoint with Handel's symphony. Yes that little thing at the beginning of Messiah, you call _that_ a symphony?!


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## Guest (Jan 15, 2011)

Haydn did do some good things with the oratorio, though. While Handel's Messiah is incredible, I really enjoy Haydn's Creation. I even quite enjoy his Seasons. Are they better than Handel's? Hmmm, I don't know. But still very good.


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## Herkku (Apr 18, 2010)

If Haydn's Die Schöpfung is anything to go by, he could have been a masterful opera composer, under different circumstances.


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

DrMike said:


> Haydn did do some good things with the oratorio, though. While Handel's Messiah is incredible, I really enjoy Haydn's Creation. I even quite enjoy his Seasons. Are they better than Handel's? Hmmm, I don't know. But still very good.


True. But opera is a different animal. Even Beethoven struggled when he tried his hand at opera. Even major opera composers like Wagner, Mozart, and Verdi had some early hiccups. I think it takes a special kind of talent to compose top level operas, and Haydn didn't seem to have it. I was reading about his other operas this afternoon, and it looks like _Il Mondo della Luna_ is actually considered to be his least bad one, so, the others must be pretty bad indeed.

According to this book I'm reading, "opera is the one field of music activity in which History has judged Haydn a failure."


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## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

It might be a bit unfair to compare. While in London Handel was as much a self-publicist/entrepreneur as he was a composer, albeit with fluctuating fiscal results. Although he had a steadier source of income than Handel Haydn must have felt boxed in by his bondage to the house of Esterhazy but if he'd been able to compose opera on his own terms and for the wider public I'm still not sure if he would have excelled to the degree that Handel did a generation before. Had he done then would his symphonies and quartets got in the way and thus be given low priority?


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## Herkku (Apr 18, 2010)

A lot of "what if" speculation here, but I'm quite convinced that Haydn could have composed more impressive operas than those for the Esterházys. Even those are easy listening with singers like Jessye Norman, Frederica von Stade, Ileana Cotrubas, Lucia Valentini-Terrani, Elly Ameling, Edith Mathis and Helen Donath, who sing in the Dorati series.


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## HarpsichordConcerto (Jan 1, 2010)

I agree with member Herkku. Haydn's earlier operas are, to some extent, constrained by the operatic resources at his disposal at Esterhazy. But his "public" operas are by no means that at all.

I can recommed you his _L'anima del filosofo ossia Orfeo ed Euridice _ (1791), composed for London, but never performed due to political intrigues. It contains the greatest _coloratura_ aria for the soprano from the second half of the 18th century, along with Mozart's _Queen of the Night _from _Die Zauberflote_. Not a dull aria nor chorus.


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

HarpsichordConcerto said:


> I agree with member Herkku. Haydn's earlier operas are, to some extent, constrained by the operatic resources at his disposal at Esterhazy. But his "public" operas are by no means that at all.
> 
> I can recommed you his _L'anima del filosofo ossia Orfeo ed Euridice _(1791), composed for London, but never performed due to political intrigues. It contains the greatest _coloratura_ aria for the soprano from the second half of the 18th century, along with Mozart's _Queen of the Night _from _Die Zauberflote_. Not a dull aria nor chorus.


Oh, OK, I may give him a second chance, then.


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## superhorn (Mar 23, 2010)

By coincidence,I've been listening to Harnoncourt's recording of Haydn's opera Orlando Paladino
on Harmonia Mundi, which I recently vborrowed from my local libarary.
It's very enjoyable, and is unusual for being a comic opera based on the legends of the Crusades,with Orlando,Alcina, et al,instead of an opera seria such as those by Gluck, Rossini etc,and even Haydn himself. 
It's downright zany at times,and I think it should be better known. The cast includes Werner Gura,Michael Schade, and harnoncourt's own daughter Elisabeth von Magnus etc,and the performance is excellent.I recommend it highly.
Previously,I had only heard four Haydn operas from Dorati's classic Philips series on LP long ago,before CDs existed.I enjoyed these too. The whole series has recently been reissued on CD in a bargain -priced boxed set, but unfortunately there are only synopses and no librettos and English translation,which is criminal on the part of Philips.


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## Rangstrom (Sep 24, 2010)

To appreciate Haydn's writing for solo and choral voices you have to listen to his Masses. I have a number of his operas (mostly the Dorati recordings) but never warmed up to them. I keep hoping a decent DVD will help.

If Haydn hadn't written anything besides his string quartets he'd still be in my top five list.


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

Rangstrom said:


> To appreciate Haydn's writing for solo and choral voices you have to listen to his Masses. I have a number of his operas (mostly the Dorati recordings) but never warmed up to them. I keep hoping a decent DVD will help.
> 
> If Haydn hadn't written anything besides his string quartets he'd still be in my top five list.


Oh, I don't doubt his powers in other genres. It's just that he didn't seem to be a very good opera composer.


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## Herkku (Apr 18, 2010)

Dorati's Haydn opera box is actually published under the DECCA label. I agree that they could have at least put the librettos available on the Internet.


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## Yashin (Jul 22, 2011)

I am new to the works of Haydn. I generally steer clear of 'Baroque' era pieces but i do have some DVDs from Handel -Hercules and Giulio Cesare. I am in love with my new DVD purchase -Orlando Paladino from Rene Jacobs. It is filmed at the Staatsoper in Berlin. What a brilliant, lively production it is. Wow i could not stop watching it. I am now a convert.


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