# boring pieces by Mr. Mozart



## Casebearer (Jan 19, 2016)

I'm not a big Mozart fan in general although I like some of his music and hear that it has a lot of quality, especially his vocal music (opera's, requiem) and some symphonies. But there has been enough talking about his genius. It might be more interesting to discuss his weaker side and see if there is any agreement on that. So let's make a list of boring and uninteresting Mozart pieces and see if there is any consensus in that area. I think most of what Westdeutches Rundfunk (WDR3) was playing of Mozart in my youth qualifies but I cannot immediately find the notes I made of it back then.


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## isorhythm (Jan 2, 2015)

Aside from the Requiem, Great Mass, Coronation Mass, and maybe Vesperae solennes de confessore and a couple motets, many people find his liturgical music boring, and I'm inclined to agree.


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## Dim7 (Apr 24, 2009)

I'm a fan in general but I find the concerto for flute and harp bland and uninspired.... which is a pity since I'd like to hear an actually good Mozart concerto for those instruments together.


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## Hildadam Bingor (May 7, 2016)

Casebearer said:


> I'm not a big Mozart fan in general although I like some of his music and hear that it has a lot of quality, especially his vocal music (opera's, requiem) and some symphonies. But there has been enough talking about his genius. It might be more interesting to discuss his weaker side and see if there is any agreement on that.


I see your point, but he wrote so much hackwork - no negative judgment, he needed the money - that it might be quicker to just try to list all the strong pieces.

EDIT - I guess I should qualify this by saying his hit-miss ratio is actually pretty good as of about 1777. So maybe it's just a matter of not automatically counting stuff he wrote before he was all grown up as "Mozart."


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

I found this type of thread curious. What is the point of trying to point out the failings of one of the greatest masters of music? Does it make us feel better? I have the complete works of Mozart and, while some are more inspired than others I wouldn't call any of them 'boring'. Even when Mozart was being a 'hack' he was on a generally higher plane than most musicians.


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## adamks (Mar 17, 2016)

DavidA said:


> I wouldn't call any of them 'boring'. Even when Mozart was being a 'hack' he was on a generally higher plane than most musicians.


I completely agree with you DavidA. Neither do I call Mozart boring.. which is so inspiring


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## Marinera (May 13, 2016)

I can live without his 'musical joke'.


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## violadude (May 2, 2011)

A boring piece by Mozart? Never heard one, unless you count some of his first little piano ditties he wrote as a kid, which if not boring are just standard Classical miniature fair.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Marinera said:


> I can live without his 'musical joke'.


Maybe but it's anything but boring as a piece!


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## Nereffid (Feb 6, 2013)

Any music can be boring if you're not in the mood for it. Certainly in my early days of classical listening I thought most of the Mozart I heard was boring. I have changed my mind since then, but still, as with any other music there can be days when I've had enough.


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## Bruckner Anton (Mar 10, 2016)

Comparing with his mature works, quite a few of his early and less-known pieces could be less interesting for me, especially in genres that mainly for entertaining purpose.


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## DeepR (Apr 13, 2012)

Dim7 said:


> I'm a fan in general but I find the concerto for flute and harp bland and uninspired.... .


I felt similar until I heard it live a few months ago. Now I have to disagree!


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## zhopin (Apr 7, 2016)

I'm fond of most of Mozart, it's easier for me to think of works I _do_ like.

Although I didn't get into him until recently - I used to find him boring as well.


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## Ingélou (Feb 10, 2013)

I admit that my mind tends to wander off when I'm listening to some of his harpsichord pieces - but I've always assumed that the fault was in myself - much like when my retake English GCSE students used to assure me that Shakespeare was boring...


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## kanishknishar (Aug 10, 2015)

What are people's views of his early Serenades, his Divertimento, Dances and Marches?


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## D Smith (Sep 13, 2014)

DavidA said:


> I found this type of thread curious. What is the point of trying to point out the failings of one of the greatest masters of music? Does it make us feel better? I have the complete works of Mozart and, while some are more inspired than others I wouldn't call any of them 'boring'. Even when Mozart was being a 'hack' he was on a generally higher plane than most musicians.


Agree with this 100%.


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## isorhythm (Jan 2, 2015)

DavidA said:


> I found this type of thread curious. What is the point of trying to point out the failings of one of the greatest masters of music? Does it make us feel better? I have the complete works of Mozart and, while some are more inspired than others I wouldn't call any of them 'boring'. Even when Mozart was being a 'hack' he was on a generally higher plane than most musicians.


I don't think anyone would dispute this. Lots of threads here don't really have a point - just idle observations.


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## TwoFlutesOneTrumpet (Aug 31, 2011)

Mozart wrote a lot of music in his formative years that while not entirely boring, I wouldn't classify as very interesting either. He wrote his first 20 symphonies before age 16. That's half of his symphonic output. Same with many of his piano concertos and other music. Kinda boring stuff, I guess with some notable exceptions.


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## Heliogabo (Dec 29, 2014)

It`s hard to find composers more inspired than Mozart in terms of joy and fun (only Telemann and Haydn perhaps could be near of him). But the key is that joy and fun (and boredom, of course) are first in the listener`s ears.


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## MarkW (Feb 16, 2015)

His "occasional" music -- music meant to be background music and talked over like serenades, divertimenti, etc. -- serves that purpose well.


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## Kieran (Aug 24, 2010)

The sheer ghastliness of the question itself! Where's the mods to stop this sort of thing, eh? Eh?

Eine Kleine Nacht Snoooooooze-ick....


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

DavidA said:


> I found this type of thread curious. *What is the point of trying to point out the failings of one of the greatest masters of music?* Does it make us feel better? I have the complete works of Mozart and, while some are more inspired than others I wouldn't call any of them 'boring'. Even when Mozart was being a 'hack' he was on a generally higher plane than most musicians.


Well, maybe the point is the same one you've made numerous times by injecting into otherwise enthusiastic discussions of Wagner the important fact that you're bored by parts of _Die Meistersinger. _ 

I will say here, in response to a question actually under discussion, that some of Mozart's music bores me, especially the middle movements of symphonies (I could live without ever hearing another Classical minuet), the piano sonatas, most of the religious music, and some of the operatic music. On the other hand I love the late chamber music, many of the piano concertos, the Symphonie Concertante, the Prague Symphony, and various other things.


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## Lyricus (Dec 11, 2015)

woodduck said:


> well, maybe the point is the same one you've made numerous times by injecting into otherwise enthusiastic discussions of wagner the important fact that you're bored by parts of _die meistersinger. _
> 
> i will say here, in response to a question actually under discussion, that some of mozart's music bores me, especially the middle movements of symphonies (i could live without ever hearing another classical minuet), the piano sonatas, most of the religious music, and some of the operatic music. On the other hand i love the late chamber music, many of the piano concertos, the symphonie concertante, the prague symphony, and various other things.


Diiiiiieeeeees irae! Diiiiiieeeeees illa!


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Woodduck said:


> Well, maybe the point is the same one you've made numerous times by injecting into otherwise enthusiastic discussions of Wagner the important fact that *you're bored by parts of Die Meistersinger.
> 
> I* will say here, in response to a question actually under discussion, that some of Mozart's music bores me, especially the middle movements of symphonies (I could live without ever hearing another Classical minuet), the piano sonatas, most of the religious music, and some of the operatic music. On the other hand I love the late chamber music, many of the piano concertos, the Symphonie Concertante, the Prague Symphony, and various other things.


so we're allowed to talk about being bored by the sublime genius of Mozart but Wagner is untouchable?


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

DavidA said:


> so we're allowed to talk about being bored by the sublime genius of Mozart but Wagner is untouchable?


"Parsifal is the kind of opera that starts at six o'clock and after it has been going on for three hours, you look at your watch and it says 6:20." -- David Randolph


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## Hildadam Bingor (May 7, 2016)

Woodduck said:


> Well, maybe the point is the same one you've made numerous times by injecting into otherwise enthusiastic discussions of Wagner the important fact that you're bored by parts of _Die Meistersinger. _


Geez, is it even possible NOT to be bored by everything between the act 1 prelude and "Am stillen herd"?


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## Strange Magic (Sep 14, 2015)

Who was it who first said, "If you can't say something nice about somebody, don't say anything at all."? I don't know where the notion came from that one must: A) like everything some composer or performer does, or, even crazier, B) like everything said composer or performer did equally.. Neither makes any sense, or corresponds with anybody's reality. I know what Mozart I like, and that's sufficient. I thought about adding my favorite non-favorites to the Crappy Music thread, but I remembered that I used to really like some of them, and that others undoubtedly like them still. Maybe I'll like them again, if I let them sit for 50 years unheard. Vanity, Vanity, All is Vanity! Including this.


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## Weston (Jul 11, 2008)

I've long been of two minds about Mozart.

Resolving a trill to the tonic is boring after you hear it ten thousand times, but even Beethoven does this and I don't mind it so much in Beethoven because with him you never know - it could go either way. Mozart is far more predictable in this regard, but then there is a certain satisfaction in formulas as well, just not this formula for me personally.

As to boring pieces I could point to the Piano Sonata No. 16 in C, "Facile," K. 545, but I suppose making me want to wretch and hurl myself from a tall building as the Beethoven Symphony 9 did to Alex in _A Clockwork Orange_ is not the same as boredom.


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## poconoron (Oct 26, 2011)

Mozart, along with Haydn, Beethoven, Bach, Handel and Schubert are the composers I rarely if ever get bored with. Now, post Beethoven.......................that's a horse of a different color.


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

Just wanted to say that I don't like threads of this sort, the thrust being to dump on excellent composers.


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## GreenMamba (Oct 14, 2012)

Weston said:


> Resolving a trill to the tonic is boring after you hear it ten thousand times, but even Beethoven does this and I don't mind it so much in Beethoven because with him you never know - it could go either way. Mozart is far more predictable in this regard, but then there is a certain satisfaction in formulas as well, just not this formula for me personally


Living in the age of recordings, we're more apt to notice the formula than contemporary listeners would have. Of course, the pre-recording age lasted long after Mozart, but he also lived during a time where you had to crank out massive quantity.


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## Dedalus (Jun 27, 2014)

Bulldog said:


> Just wanted to say that I don't like threads of this sort, the thrust being to dump on excellent composers.


I like threads like this, I think it's fun to see what people don't like. Composers are humans not gods. I love Mozart but if he made a piece of crap that's interesting to me. Or to find a piece I enjoy is considered a piece of crap by somebody else. Also interesting.


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## ArtMusic (Jan 5, 2013)

Casebearer said:


> I'm not a big Mozart fan in general although I like some of his music and hear that it has a lot of quality, especially his vocal music (opera's, requiem) and some symphonies. But there has been enough talking about his genius. It might be more interesting to discuss his weaker side and see if there is any agreement on that. So let's make a list of boring and uninteresting Mozart pieces and see if there is any consensus in that area. I think most of what Westdeutches Rundfunk (WDR3) was playing of Mozart in my youth qualifies but I cannot immediately find the notes I made of it back then.


In my opinion there are just no boring pieces by Mozart. There are many pieces however where he was clearly just learning and wrote quite "average" pieces by virtue of his infancy.


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## Nereffid (Feb 6, 2013)

Dedalus said:


> I like threads like this, I think it's fun to see what people don't like.


I have to say I get pretty much zero pleasure from finding out what people dislike. There's enough unpleasantness in the world already without seeking out more negativity.


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## Dedalus (Jun 27, 2014)

Nereffid said:


> I have to say I get pretty much zero pleasure from finding out what people dislike. There's enough unpleasantness in the world already without seeking out more negativity.


I guess I don't perceive it as negative; it's just somebody else's opinion.


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## Gordontrek (Jun 22, 2012)

Almost everything he wrote sounds the same to me. I wish he was born several generations later, actually. Preferably in the mid to late Romantic period. 
But that Requiem, though. Had to be divinely inspired, IMO.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

DavidA said:


> so we're allowed to talk about being bored by the sublime genius of Mozart but Wagner is untouchable?


You were the one questioning why people wanted to say that Mozart bored them. I merely asked whether it might be for the same reason you expressed boredom with Wagner.

Think about it. 

Oh, right.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Hildadam Bingor said:


> Geez, is it even possible NOT to be bored by everything between the act 1 prelude and "Am stillen herd"?


Yes. ......................


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## Casebearer (Jan 19, 2016)

The reason I posted this question is that I think it's healthy to treat composers as human beings with strenghs and weaknesses. In my opinion this is necessary to evaluate the worth of what they composed. Some people were turned off because they perceive this as negative posting. Well, that might be justified if you think your idol is above criticism or if you're one of those people with an ideology of uncompromising optimism or positivism. I don't like both at al. You're the people that help industry in marketing icons/brands. We should be critical of branding and industry. For every ****** Mozart cd you buy because it has his name on it (apart from the wonderful stuff he made also) you could also buy interesting music by a lesser known composer that is probably underrated and - if he's still living - might deserve your support and keep music alive. We should not accept tradition that easily. Tradition is mainly what successful marketeers in the past told our forefathers to like. Or are we left with a canon of classical music and composers that accurately reflects absolute musical values?


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Nereffid said:


> I have to say I get pretty much zero pleasure from finding out what people dislike. There's enough unpleasantness in the world already without seeking out more negativity.


Well said Nereffid. :tiphat:


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## Haydn man (Jan 25, 2014)

Casebearer said:


> The reason I posted this question is that I think it's healthy to treat composers as human beings with strenghs and weaknesses. In my opinion this is necessary to evaluate the worth of what they composed. Some people were turned off because they perceive this as negative posting. Well, that might be justified if you think your idol is above criticism or if you're one of those people with an ideology of uncompromising optimism or positivism. I don't like both at al. You're the people that help industry in marketing icons/brands. We should be critical of branding and industry. For every ****** Mozart cd you buy because it has his name on it (apart from the wonderful stuff he made also) you could also buy interesting music by a lesser known composer that is probably underrated and - if he's still living - might deserve your support and keep music alive. We should not accept tradition that easily. Tradition is mainly what successful marketeers in the past told our forefathers to like. Or are we left with a canon of classical music and composers that accurately reflects absolute musical values?


Strong stuff and something of a shift from your original post.
You are not keen on Mozart, that is clear and certainly not a problem. 
i don't think turning this thread into one about supporting modern music is going to enlighten anyone or change opinions any better than the previous ad nausiem threads on the same subject


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

I


Casebearer said:


> The reason I posted this question is that I think it's healthy to treat composers as human beings with strenghs and weaknesses. In my opinion this is necessary to evaluate the worth of what they composed. Some people were turned off because they perceive this as negative posting. Well, that might be justified if you think your idol is above criticism or if you're one of those people with an ideology of uncompromising optimism or positivism. I don't like both at al. You're the people that help industry in marketing icons/brands. We should be critical of branding and industry. For every ****** Mozart cd you buy because it has his name on it (apart from the wonderful stuff he made also) you could also buy interesting music by a lesser known composer that is probably underrated and - if he's still living - might deserve your support and keep music alive. We should not accept tradition that easily. Tradition is mainly what successful marketeers in the past told our forefathers to like. Or are we left with a canon of classical music and composers that accurately reflects absolute musical values?


Frankly this posting amazes me. People who don't think Mozart is boring are the peopke who help industry in marketing icons/brands. We are the victims of marketeers who tell us what to like. And all because we don't find Mozart boring. Amazing!


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## SiegendesLicht (Mar 4, 2012)

Hildadam Bingor said:


> Geez, is it even possible NOT to be bored by everything between the act 1 prelude and "Am stillen herd"?


My experience says yes, it is absolutely possible. Moreover, it can be downright delightful, especially with the right acting in some DVD recordings.


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## Nereffid (Feb 6, 2013)

Casebearer said:


> The reason I posted this question is that I think it's healthy to treat composers as human beings with strenghs and weaknesses. In my opinion this is necessary to evaluate the worth of what they composed. Some people were turned off because they perceive this as negative posting. Well, that might be justified if you think your idol is above criticism or if you're one of those people with an ideology of uncompromising optimism or positivism. I don't like both at al. You're the people that help industry in marketing icons/brands. We should be critical of branding and industry. For every ****** Mozart cd you buy because it has his name on it (apart from the wonderful stuff he made also) you could also buy interesting music by a lesser known composer that is probably underrated and - if he's still living - might deserve your support and keep music alive. We should not accept tradition that easily. Tradition is mainly what successful marketeers in the past told our forefathers to like. Or are we left with a canon of classical music and composers that accurately reflects absolute musical values?


Presumably for my comment above I'm being lumped in with the "people with an ideology of uncompromising optimism or positivism... the people that help industry in marketing icons/brands."
Rest assured that Mozart isn't one of my favourite composers and that most of my music purchases are of lesser-known music and/or living composers. 
FWIW my comment about negativity was a direct response to Dedalus's "I think it's fun to see what people don't like". I don't have an objection per se to the premise of the thread - if I really did I wouldn't be paying enough attention to be writing this! - because I can see a distinction between (a) examining the possibility that one can really love a composer's work generally while being bored by some specific pieces, and (b) just dumping on a composer one doesn't like.

Certainly a case can be made that Mozart is "oversold" - compare the number of recordings of his early symphonies with those of pretty much any other Classical-era symphony not by Haydn. But while his _excessive_ popularity may be attributable to marketing and hero-worship, his popularity in of itself is (and I say this as someone who's been accused of being a total subjectivist) surely down to the music.


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## Hildadam Bingor (May 7, 2016)

Casebearer said:


> Or are we left with a canon of classical music and composers that accurately reflects absolute musical values?


Yeah, pretty much. The thing is, great music lasts and mediocre music doesn't because mediocre music eventually gets so boring on repeated listening that nobody can stand it any more.

That said, I totally agree the world would be a better place if everybody took the money they spent on recordings of early Mozart operas,symphonies, divertimenti, whatever and saved it for a La Monte Young album (maybe if more people bought them, they wouldn't be so *€%%ing expensive).


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## Chris (Jun 1, 2010)

Sometimes an indifferent performance makes a piece of music sound boring. When I was an impecunious student I used to record all my music onto cassette tapes from Radio 3. I can't remember who performed Beethoven's C sharp minor quartet op 131 but for a long time afterwards I thought the op 131 was, if not boring, rather overrated. Many years later I was listening to Radio 3 and they played a historic recording by the Busch quartet. What a difference! The music just soared! So the remedy for 'boring Mozart' might be to try a different recording.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Hildadam Bingor said:


> Yeah, pretty much. The thing is, great music lasts and mediocre music doesn't because mediocre music eventually gets so boring on repeated listening that nobody can stand it any more.
> 
> That said, I totally agree the world would be a better place if everybody took the money they spent on recordings of early Mozart operas,symphonies, divertimenti, whatever and saved it for a *La Monte Young album *(maybe if more people bought them, they wouldn't be so *€%%ing expensive).


Frankly, having listened to some of this guy's stuff, it's the sort of 'music' you would have to pay me to sit through!


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## Hildadam Bingor (May 7, 2016)

Okay, so what new(ish) music do you like? ( I have a feeling Young may now already be like Wagner around 1895 - still seems like either a prophet or a charlatan to most people, but actually the avant-garde has already moved on. Don't ask me where, though.)


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Hildadam Bingor said:


> Okay, so what new(ish) music do you like? ( I have a feeling Young may now already be like Wagner around 1895 - still seems like either a prophet or a charlatan to most people, but actually the avant-garde has already moved on. Don't ask me where, though.)


:lol:

I love your sense of humor. You're funnier than act one of _Meistersinger_ between the prelude and "Am stillen Herd."

La Monte Young is, of course, nothing like Wagner in 1895. He will never be anything like Wagner in any year.

Pardon me now while I go and wash the hand with which I just typed those two names in the same sentence.


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## Hildadam Bingor (May 7, 2016)

Woodduck said:


> You're funnier than act one of _Meistersinger_ between the prelude and "Am stillen Herd."


Well yeah but so's a toothache.



Woodduck said:


> La Monte Young is, of course, nothing like Wagner in 1895. He will never be anything like Wagner in any year.
> 
> Pardon me now while I go and wash the hand with which I just typed those two names in the same sentence.


Richard Wagner is, of course, nothing like Beethoven. He will never be anything like Beethoven. Pardon me now while I...


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Hildadam Bingor said:


> Well yeah but so's a toothache.
> 
> Richard Wagner is, of course, nothing like Beethoven. He will never be anything like Beethoven. Pardon me now while I...


Beethoven, Wagner...... La Monte Young?

Next joke, please. I know you've got a million of 'em. :tiphat:


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## Hildadam Bingor (May 7, 2016)

It's more like Beethoven...Wagner...Stravinsky...Young.

You can't blame Young for failing to stop the decline of the west. But as for who's the best we have TODAY (or yesterday, cuz he's oooooold now), if you don't like Young as a nominee, who's yours?


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

I have Leroy Anderson, easily besting the British nominee Albert Ketèlbey. Decline of the West? Phooey on that!


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

DavidA said:


> Frankly, having listened to some of this guy's stuff, it's the sort of 'music' you would have to pay me to sit through!


And cash only


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Hildadam Bingor said:


> It's more like Beethoven...Wagner...Stravinsky...Young.
> 
> You can't blame Young for failing to stop the decline of the west. But as for who's the best we have TODAY (or yesterday, cuz he's oooooold now), if you don't like Young as a nominee, who's yours?


I can't disagree with your ranking, as much as I'd decline to compare incomprehensible and quite different phenomena on the level of Beethoven and Wagner.

I really hate to do "bests." I only know La Monte ain't one. Anyway, I'm tired of sampling contemporary music and feeling little motivation to listen to the end of the piece. I'm waiting now for the West to decline right into the Pacific (we're due for the Big One any time). Good luck to those here for the next great civilization, if there's going to be one.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Woodduck said:


> I'm waiting now for the West to decline right into the Pacific (we're due for the Big One any time). Good luck to those here for the next great civilization, if there's going to be one.


Not a new idea. Almost a century ago, Olin Downes called Stravinsky's Rite of Spring "the expression of one who is fundamentally a barbarian and a primitive, tinctured with, and educated in, the utmost sophistications and satieties of a worn-out civilization."

I know that was a while back, but these "decline and fall" things take a bit of time.


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## Hildadam Bingor (May 7, 2016)

KenOC said:


> Not a new idea. Almost a century ago, Olin Downes called Stravinsky's Rite of Spring "the expression of one who is fundamentally a barbarian and a primitive, tinctured with, and educated in, the utmost sophistications and satieties of a worn-out civilization."
> 
> I know that was a while ago, but these "decline and fall" things take a bit of time.


So our ancestors understood what was happening to them a hundred years ago and said so and... we're going to make fun of them, because the last 100 years were just that awesome?


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## Azol (Jan 25, 2015)

You do know, I suppose, that many of those "boring" pieces were compositions Mozart was commissioned to compose - he had to adapt to technical ability of the person who had money but not the skill.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Hildadam Bingor said:


> So our ancestors understood what was happening to them a hundred years ago and said so and... we're going to make fun of them, because the last 100 years were just that awesome?


Not sure where you're coming from! Is quoting somebody the same as making fun of them? I would never criticize Olin Downes, an influential critic with sober and quite sound views.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Of Elgar's music he wrote, "it reflects the complacency and stodginess of the era of the antimacassar and pork-pie bonnets; it is affected by the poor taste and the swollen orchestral manner of the post-romantics". He dismissed Webern's Symphony for Chamber Orchestra as "one of those whispering, clucking, picking little pieces which Webern composes when he whittles away at small and futile ideas, until he has achieved the perfect fruition of futility and written precisely nothing." (Wiki)


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## SiegendesLicht (Mar 4, 2012)

Woodduck said:


> Anyway, I'm tired of sampling contemporary music and feeling little motivation to listen to the end of the piece. I'm waiting now for the West to decline right into the Pacific (we're due for the Big One any time). Good luck to those here for the next great civilization, if there's going to be one.


Ah, Woodduck, but you surely know that the Western civilization is not limited to the United States. When the latter decline into the Pacific, you will be more than welcome on different shores. _Das Vaterland_ needs people who know as much about Wagner as you do 

And we could talk about interpretations of Parsifal over a couple of cold Franziskaner :cheers:


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## Hildadam Bingor (May 7, 2016)

KenOC said:


> Not sure where you're coming from! Is quoting somebody the same as making fun of them? I would never criticize Olin Downes, an influential critic with sober and quite sound views.
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> Of Elgar's music he wrote, "it reflects the complacency and stodginess of the era of the antimacassar and pork-pie bonnets; it is affected by the poor taste and the swollen orchestral manner of the post-romantics". He dismissed Webern's Symphony for Chamber Orchestra as "one of those whispering, clucking, picking little pieces which Webern composes when he whittles away at small and futile ideas, until he has achieved the perfect fruition of futility and written precisely nothing." (Wiki)


I really can't tell if you're being ironic or not. (The Elgar quote is of course not the whole truth, but true. The Webern quote is true until the word "futile.")


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## Adam Weber (Apr 9, 2015)

I don't know about Western Civilization, but this thread's definitely in decline...


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## Hildadam Bingor (May 7, 2016)

Adam Weber said:


> I don't know about Western Civilization, but this thread's definitely in decline...


Finally, something we can all agree on.

Okay, uh... "Ah fuggi il traditor" from Don Giovanni is a really long two minutes and the 19th century performers who omitted it were probably right.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Hildadam Bingor said:


> I really can't tell if you're being ironic or not. (The Elgar quote is of course not the whole truth, but true. The Webern quote is true until the word "futile.")


How can I be "ironic"? I'm just quoting Downes. Maybe Downes is ironic?


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## Hildadam Bingor (May 7, 2016)

SiegendesLicht said:


> _Das Vaterland_ needs people who know as much about Wagner as you do


Habe nun, ach! Sebastian Bach,
van Beethoven und Amadé,
Und Wagner und manch' and're Sanch'
Durchaus studiert, Wohl oder Weh.
Da steh ich nun, ich armer Tor!
Und bin so klug als wie zuvor.

If knowing all about an old artist gives a person pleasure, well and good. But a society that prioritizes knowing a lot about the great achievements of the past, over producing great achievements in its own time, is the definition of a decadent society.

(Incidentally, I think there's a case to be made that the best music to come out of Germany since Stockhausen - or maybe even further back - is by the rock musicians who started out in the early '70s, such as Tangerine Dream, and maybe above all Can, who partly descend from the Velvet Underground, who partly descend from, drumroll... La Monte Young. Who of course partly descends from Webern.)



KenOC said:


> How can I be "ironic"? I'm just quoting Downes. Maybe Downes is ironic?


This could be ironic or sincere: "I would never criticize Olin Downes, an influential critic with sober and quite sound views."


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## SiegendesLicht (Mar 4, 2012)

Hildadam Bingor said:


> If knowing all about an old artist gives a person pleasure, well and good. But a society that prioritizes knowing a lot about the great achievements of the past, over producing great achievements in its own time, is the definition of a decadent society.


I am of the opposite opinion: that society is decadent which tears itself away from its roots, from a continuous connection between past and present and prefers to live only in the moment. The Soviets tried something like that in the 1920s: they argued that the culture of past ages belonged on the trash heap because it was not motivated by the class struggle and thus was not relevant any more. That did not work very well. Not that Germany is anywhere close to doing the same, of course.


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## Hildadam Bingor (May 7, 2016)

SiegendesLicht said:


> I am of the opposite opinion: that society is decadent which tears itself away from its roots, from a continuous connection between past and present and prefers to live only in the moment.


That's the opposite extreme (and I think the capitalist west is closer to doing that today than the Soviet Union ever was - see a typical contemporary production of a Mozart opera, with twitchy musicianship and costumes and staging ripped off from science fiction movies that the director doesn't really understand and upper middlebrow crime stories that he - it's usually a he - understands all too well).

But the fact that one extreme is bad doesn't make the other good - the other, in this case, being the failure to take any interest at all in art made in our own time.



SiegendesLicht said:


> I am of the opposite opinion: that society is decadent which tears itself away from its roots, from a continuous connection between past and present and prefers to live only in the moment. The Soviets tried something like that in the 1920s: they argued that the culture of past ages belonged on the trash heap because it was not motivated by the class struggle and thus was not relevant any more.


In the '20s, maybe. But in the '30s - that is, in the most brutal period of communism - Soviet Union high culture was of course forced by the state to become very CONSERVATIVE, compelling Prokofiev and Shostakovich to write the music that has salved the ears of conservative western listeners ever since.


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## Adam Weber (Apr 9, 2015)

If Western Civilization does collapse, I doubt it will have anything to do with mediocre Mozart productions or La Monte Young.


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## Hildadam Bingor (May 7, 2016)

Yeah, and if you have a bad diet, you're not going to die because you're bloated, discolored, and smell bad - but those are signs that you are going to die.


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## SiegendesLicht (Mar 4, 2012)

Hildadam Bingor said:


> But the fact that one extreme is bad doesn't make the other good - the other, in this case, being the failure to take any interest at all in art made in our own time.


Sure, but what if a great part of this art is, in your own words, "bloated, discolored and smells bad" ?


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## Richannes Wrahms (Jan 6, 2014)

Reads like a Mahler criticism from his time. Anyway, most contemporary anything is crap simply because most of anything is. What is worrying is how frozen instrument development has become (and I particularly still find electronic components largely unsatisfactory). That there is no clear stylistic leadership. People are realising how unimportant the whole high culture charade really is.


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## Hildadam Bingor (May 7, 2016)

SiegendesLicht said:


> Sure, but what if a great part of this art is, in your own words, "bloated, discolored and smells bad" ?


Then you try to find whoever's doing the best possible under the circumstances and try to build on that.


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## Hildadam Bingor (May 7, 2016)

Richannes Wrahms said:


> What is worrying is how frozen instrument development has become (and I particularly still find electronic components largely unsatisfactory).


I think instrumental development is doing well enough. What's frozen is the Beethoven-Berlioz-Wagner-Mahler symphony orchestra. Whenever we're willing to admit that that's now a period ensemble, problem solved.



Richannes Wrahms said:


> People are realising how unimportant the whole high culture charade really is.


I would say people "reali[zed] how unimportant the whole high culture charade really is" somewhere around 1965 - and now, after half a century of pretending popular entertainment alone is an adequate substitute, people are beginning to realize that actually it was kind of important after all.

http://www.octopuspie.com/2008-03-26/125-the-beauty-of-pop-culture/


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## Adam Weber (Apr 9, 2015)

Hildadam Bingor said:


> Yeah, and if you have a bad diet, you're not going to die because you're bloated, discolored, and smell bad - but those are signs that you are going to die.


For that analogy to work, I'd have to agree that contemporary music is "bloated, discolored, and [bad smelling]." I don't.

If a better society produces finer art, how did the imperialistic, racist, and sexist societies of the 1800s give us Beethoven, Brahms and Wagner (amongst others)? I can imagine a Joachim Raff or two, but Beethoven, Brahms, and Wagner?


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## SiegendesLicht (Mar 4, 2012)

Adam Weber said:


> For that analogy to work, I'd have to agree that contemporary music is "bloated, discolored, and [bad smelling]." I don't.
> 
> If a better society produces finer art, how did the imperialistic, racist, and sexist societies of the 1800s give us Beethoven, Brahms and Wagner (amongst others)? I can imagine a Joachim Raff or two, but Beethoven, Brahms, and Wagner?


I do not believe the societies of 1800s were so much worse than ours. They had different values, that is all.

Still earlier medieval societies built magnificent churches, temples and palaces, even though a large percentage of their population went hungry. And the Renaissance in Italy happened partly during the reign of the ruthless Borgias. For all their neglect of the "human rights", they had something that the modern secure, satiated and pampered Western world has largely lost.

Oswald Spengler, the one who first pondered the "Decline of the West" called this creative impulse of the Western man, this yearning to reach for eternity, the Faustian impulse. How we have managed to lose it along the way - I wish I knew.


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## Hildadam Bingor (May 7, 2016)

Adam Weber said:


> For that analogy to work, I'd have to agree that contemporary music is "bloated, discolored, and [bad smelling]."


Well, no, in the context of our conversation, you'd have to agree that, let's say, the René Jacobs-conducted performance of Don Giovanni on DVD is those things.



Adam Weber said:


> If a better society produces finer art, how did the imperialistic, racist, and sexist societies of the 1800s give us Beethoven, Brahms and Wagner?


If our somewhat diminished sexism (bearing in mind that women's suffrage was achieved in America, Britain, and Germany by people born in the 19th century) and racism and our subtler imperialism (little if any credit to us on that one, we're just too weak to do it the blatant way any more) make us "better" than the societies of the 1800s, then they make us "better" than literally every society before us, ever, in all of human history, not to mention "better" than most developing countries today - a belief whose self-congratulatory nature should give one pause.


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## Adam Weber (Apr 9, 2015)

SiegendesLicht said:


> For all their neglect of the "human rights", they had something that the modern secure, satiated and pampered Western world has largely lost. I wish I knew what it was.


Can you elaborate on that?


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## Adam Weber (Apr 9, 2015)

Hildadam Bingor said:


> Well, no, in the context of our conversation, you'd have to agree that, let's say, the René Jacobs-conducted performance of Don Giovanni on DVD is those things.
> 
> If our somewhat diminished sexism (bearing in mind that women's suffrage was achieved in America, Britain, and Germany by people born in the 19th century) and racism and our subtler imperialism (little if any credit to us on that one, we're just too weak to do it the blatant way any more) makes us "better" than the societies of the 1800s, then they make us "better" than literally every society before us, ever, in all of human history, not to mention "better" than most developing countries today - a belief whose self-congratulatory nature should give one pause.


You misunderstood me (or I misunderstood you).

Let's clear this up. From what I could tell, you said today's poor art represents an ailing society.

I then argued that since previously "sick"* societies produced some decent art, your correlation doesn't hold up.

That's all.

*Your concept, as I understand it, not mine. I'm arguing on your terms.


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## Hildadam Bingor (May 7, 2016)

Adam Weber said:


> From what I could tell, you said today's poor art represents an ailing society.
> 
> I argued that since previously "sick"* societies produced some decent art, your correlation doesn't hold up. That's all.


Or your definition of "sick" doesn't hold up. A physically healthy person isn't necessarily a good person. A sufficiently physically unhealthy person IS necessarily a useless person.


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## Adam Weber (Apr 9, 2015)

Hildadam Bingor said:


> Or your definition of "sick" doesn't hold up. A physically healthy person isn't necessarily a good person. A sufficiently physically unhealthy person IS necessarily a useless person.


This is fast becoming nonsense. Are you saying that past societies were "bad" but "healthy," while our society might be "more good," but "unhealthy"? And you know this because... Rene Jacobs?


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## SiegendesLicht (Mar 4, 2012)

Hildadam Bingor said:


> If our somewhat diminished sexism (bearing in mind that women's suffrage was achieved in America, Britain, and Germany by people born in the 19th century) and racism and our subtler imperialism (little if any credit to us on that one, we're just too weak to do it the blatant way any more) make us "better" than the societies of the 1800s, *then they make us "better" than literally every society before us, ever, in all of human history, not to mention "better" than most developing countries today* - a belief whose self-congratulatory nature should give one pause.


A lot, if not most people in these developing countries, most potently disagree. Especially they disagree with the notion of imperialism having diminished, as compared to the past.


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## Hildadam Bingor (May 7, 2016)

Not that I agree that 19th century societies should all be considered "bad" either. If there's any meaningful way of morally evaluating a society (or a person), then it has to be in the context of the norms of the time (otherwise all societies, including ours, are so bad that comparisons are almost meaningless). The America that accepted the Missouri compromise, or the Britain that starved Ireland on one end of the century and India on the other and pushed opium in China on both, were bad. The France that gave all adult men the right to vote and forced Austria out of Italy (minus Veneto), or the America that fought the Civil War, were, in context, relatively good.


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## Hildadam Bingor (May 7, 2016)

Adam Weber said:


> This is fast becoming nonsense. Are you saying that past societies were "bad" but "healthy," while our society might be "more good," but "unhealthy"?


Yes, and of course so far none of that is obviously nonsense.



Adam Weber said:


> And you know this because... Rene Jacobs?


And this is merely a reductio ad absurdum. No, of course I don't know this because of Jacobs, nor even because of the state of our art in general. That's of course just one indicator among others, which we're talking about because this is a music forum.


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## Adam Weber (Apr 9, 2015)

Hildadam Bingor said:


> Yes, and of course so far none of that is obviously nonsense.
> 
> And this is merely a reductio ad absurdum. No, of course I don't know this because of Jacobs, nor even because of the state of our art in general. That's of course just one indicator among others, which we're talking about because this is a music forum.


How do you know it at all? And what do you mean by "unhealthy"? So far you've been rather... vague.


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## SiegendesLicht (Mar 4, 2012)

Adam Weber said:


> Can you elaborate on that?


I have edited my previous post a little. Basically, I think the Western man has somehow lost much of that creative drive that had before led him to discover new continents, raise up temples that would endure for centuries or ponder philosophy in music (like Wagner did with Parsifal). Or if not lost, then it has been redirected to the creation of things of purely utilitarian and temporary value.

I'll raise you one question. Would you support the building of a concert hall or a conservatory that would cost several million dollars, in say, Mozambique or Rwanda - the world's poorest countries? Logistics and expected attendance aside for now.


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## Hildadam Bingor (May 7, 2016)

Adam Weber said:


> How do you know it at all?


One example, our inability to do anything in the face of the current economic crisis except try to prop up the very late 20th century methods that the crisis invalidated. But again, the part that's relevant to this forum is the state of our art. If you want to talk more generally at length, PM me.


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## Hildadam Bingor (May 7, 2016)

SiegendesLicht said:


> Oswald Spengler, the one who first pondered the "Decline of the West" called this creative impulse of the Western man, this yearning to reach for eternity, the Faustian impulse. How we have managed to lose it along the way - I wish I knew.


Spengler - one the most influential historians of the last century, whom nobody acknowledges as an influence - would say that cultures simply get old and die, like animals, and that now it's the Faustian's turn. (He also said that Russia is a separate, very young culture.)


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## Adam Weber (Apr 9, 2015)

SiegendesLicht said:


> I'll raise you one question. Would you support the building of a concert hall or a conservatory that would cost several million dollars, in say, Mozambique or Rwanda - the world's poorest countries? Logistics and expected attendance aside for now.


No.

[fifteen characters]


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## Hildadam Bingor (May 7, 2016)

SiegendesLicht said:


> I'll raise you one question. Would you support the building of a concert hall or a conservatory that would cost several million dollars, in say, Mozambique or Rwanda - the world's poorest countries? Logistics and expected attendance aside for now.


Well, it happens, anyway: https://www.jacobinmag.com/2016/06/...gentrification-design-housing-gehry-urbanism/


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## SiegendesLicht (Mar 4, 2012)

Hildadam Bingor said:


> Well, it happens, anyway: https://www.jacobinmag.com/2016/06/...gentrification-design-housing-gehry-urbanism/


Those are some godawful buildings.


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## Adam Weber (Apr 9, 2015)

I like the buildings. Awful about all the rest though...


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## Hildadam Bingor (May 7, 2016)

SiegendesLicht said:


> Those are some godawful buildings.


Oh God yes. (I mean, Gerhy is - or was - talented in an ogre-child-prodigy-doing-dumb-tricks-for-his-parents-while-thoughtlessly-trampling-ordinary-humans way, but the rest don't even have that much value.)


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## SiegendesLicht (Mar 4, 2012)

But you see, back at the times when many of Europe's architectural and artistic wonders were created, the average European peasant or tradesman was not much wealthier, if at all, than a citizen of the modern world's poorest states. And there was no humanitarian aid back in the day. And still, somehow, the resources and the desire was found to go beyond the very basic necessities and to create something beautiful and lasting. Of course, it was the elites who commissioned these creations, and they did not have to worry about basic necessities, but still... how many elites nowadays even have a desire to build something for eternity?

Just to avoid misunderstandings, I am in no way advocating a return to the Middle Ages  I am simply trying to figure out what it is that defines a culture's creative power and how we can preserve it for as long as possible.


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## SiegendesLicht (Mar 4, 2012)

Hildadam Bingor said:


> Spengler - one the most influential historians of the last century, whom nobody acknowledges as an influence - would say that cultures simply get old and die, like animals, *and that now it's the Faustian's turn*. (He also said that Russia is a separate, very young culture.)


It may well be. My pessimistically-minded German fiance often expresses the same opinion. To which I usually point out that Spengler first wrote about the decline of the West back in 1910-1920s. Since then the West, and particularly Spengler's own _Vaterland_ have undergone trials and tribulations that he could in no way have foreseen. And they still have not gone off the map. I believe we will die long before the West does  To quote my favorite movie (which deals with the struggle of the West against hostile powers):



> An hour of wolves and shattered shields, when the age of men comes crashing down. But it is not this day!


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## Hildadam Bingor (May 7, 2016)

SiegendesLicht said:


> It may well be. My pessimistically-minded German fiance often expresses the same opinion. To which I usually point out that Spengler first wrote about the decline of the West back in 1910-1920s. Since then the West, and particularly Spengler's own _Vaterland_ have undergone trials and tribulations that he could in no way have foreseen. And they still have not gone off the map.


But Spengler didn't mean dead civilizations go off the map. The way he sees it, they can continue to exist as mere political/economic/military powers for a long time. They just stop being creative. ("Kultur" = creative, "Zivilisation" = the uncreative shell that remains when Kultur dies.)


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## RogerWaters (Feb 13, 2017)

I love Mozart, but I can clearly offer a candidate for this thread:

Serenade No. 10 "Gran Partita". 

I cannot understand why it is so well regarded.


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## arnerich (Aug 19, 2016)

The minuet from the Jupiter symphony I find a bit ho hum.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

RogerWaters said:


> I love Mozart, but I can clearly offer a candidate for this thread:
> 
> Serenade No. 10 "Gran Partita".
> 
> I cannot understand why it is so well regarded.


I love it! .


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

arnerich said:


> The minuet from the Jupiter symphony I find a bit ho hum.


Are you listening to a different version to me then?


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## RogerWaters (Feb 13, 2017)

DavidA said:


> I love it! .


It's obviously a fine piece and well crafted. However, none of the 'riffs' pull me in.


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## larold (Jul 20, 2017)

<<I found this type of thread curious. What is the point of trying to point out the failings of one of the greatest masters of music? Does it make us feel better? I have the complete works of Mozart and, while some are more inspired than others I wouldn't call any of them 'boring'. Even when Mozart was being a 'hack' he was on a generally higher plane than most musicians.>>

I couldn't agree more. Mozart is quite easily the greatest musical genius that ever lived. He wrote the two greatest operas, a magnificent requiem and mass (several wonderful masses, one as a teen,) a dozen symphonies, 35 concertos and scores of other music that is the equal to anyone that ever lived.

He lived 35 years and did all this. Guess what Beethoven wouldn't have written had he lived 35 years: the 9th symphony, "Emporer" concerto, violin concerto, Missa Solemnis, his late quartets and piano sonatas. J.S. Bach, had he only lived 35 years, would not have written any cantatas after No. 24, no Brandenburg concertos, no B minor mass, no St. Matthew Passion, etc.

No classical musician that ever resided on this planet did as much in such a short lifetime as Mozart. If you find anything he did boring, I am afraid I find that your incredible loss.


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## jdec (Mar 23, 2013)

Deleted post........


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## poconoron (Oct 26, 2011)

larold said:


> <<I found this type of thread curious. What is the point of trying to point out the failings of one of the greatest masters of music? Does it make us feel better? I have the complete works of Mozart and, while some are more inspired than others I wouldn't call any of them 'boring'. Even when Mozart was being a 'hack' he was on a generally higher plane than most musicians.>>
> 
> I couldn't agree more. Mozart is quite easily the greatest musical genius that ever lived. He wrote the two greatest operas, a magnificent requiem and mass (several wonderful masses, one as a teen,) a dozen symphonies, 35 concertos and scores of other music that is the equal to anyone that ever lived.
> 
> ...


Very well said...............


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## gardibolt (May 22, 2015)

The endless sets of dances are pretty tedious going. Not a lot of room for inspiration there, and it feels like the hackwork that it is.


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## jdec (Mar 23, 2013)

gardibolt said:


> The endless sets of dances are pretty tedious going. Not a lot of room for inspiration there, and it feels like the hackwork that it is.


Funny you say so when most of "The Unheard Beethoven" in your website is uninspiring. Sorry.


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## eugeneonagain (May 14, 2017)

Usually there's a reason why 'unheard' work from a very famous artist is unheard. Hours of it too! 

I'm happy to have it publicised. so that we can all discuss how same-y and derivative it is.


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## Tallisman (May 7, 2017)

Only some of the very, very early stuff. Apart from some of those, none are boring once you get to know them.


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## poconoron (Oct 26, 2011)

gardibolt said:


> The endless sets of dances are pretty tedious going. Not a lot of room for inspiration there, and it feels like the hackwork that it is.


It never ceases to amaze me how certain Beethoven fans seem to take an opportunity to denigrate Mozart's work. Must be a little bit of insecurity about their guy...........


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## jegreenwood (Dec 25, 2015)

RogerWaters said:


> I love Mozart, but I can clearly offer a candidate for this thread:
> 
> Serenade No. 10 "Gran Partita".
> 
> I cannot understand why it is so well regarded.





DavidA said:


> I love it! .


It's marvelous.


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## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

gardibolt said:


> The endless sets of dances are pretty tedious going. Not a lot of room for inspiration there, and it feels like the hackwork that it is.


You've listened to them all then have you?


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

gardibolt said:


> The endless sets of dances are pretty tedious going. Not a lot of room for inspiration there, and it feels like the hackwork that it is.


I wonder how many of them you have heard. They are good enough for several major record companies to record. Of course, Mozart was tending to churn them out but even when he was operating as a 'hack' he was an inspired 'hack'.


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## arnerich (Aug 19, 2016)

DavidA said:


> Are you listening to a different version to me then?


I've listened to many recordings of the Jupiter symphony. Honestly I could do without the minuet entirely. But the 4th movement? That's another story


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## Larkenfield (Jun 5, 2017)

Casebearer said:


> I'm not a big Mozart fan in general although I like some of his music and hear that it has a lot of quality, especially his vocal music (opera's, requiem) and some symphonies. But there has been enough talking about his genius. It might be more interesting to discuss his weaker side and see if there is any agreement on that. So let's make a list of boring and uninteresting Mozart pieces and see if there is any consensus in that area. I think most of what Westdeutches Rundfunk (WDR3) was playing of Mozart in my youth qualifies but I cannot immediately find the notes I made of it back then.


Even with the works that are cited above, the praise sounds lukewarm and hollow ("I'm not a big Mozart fan in general"). If there was some kind of unqualified enthusiasm presented on the works that one likes, it might have been worthwhile commenting on some of the master's shortcomings, because there's never been a composer who hasn't had them, including the sometimes compulsive busyness of Bach. But to discuss Mozart with those who can't show any real enthusiasm for works of genius, it's just not worth the bother-and the critic's exposure to a wide variety of truly fine performances are usually suspect. Sometimes it may take a lifetime to understand the quality of the work separate from what could be a poor performance that ends up being blamed on the composer. Mozart never wrote an innept note in his life, whether one happens to like what he did or not, and the spirit of his critics generally burns so much lower than his own. What a waste for others to spend time on a composer they damn with faint praise rather than seeking satisfaction from someone else, unless the person happens to be questioning whether they've been missing something.


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## chrish (Aug 21, 2016)

larold said:


> <<I found this type of thread curious. What is the point of trying to point out the failings of one of the greatest masters of music? Does it make us feel better? I have the complete works of Mozart and, while some are more inspired than others I wouldn't call any of them 'boring'. Even when Mozart was being a 'hack' he was on a generally higher plane than most musicians.>>
> 
> I couldn't agree more. Mozart is quite easily the greatest musical genius that ever lived. He wrote the two greatest operas, a magnificent requiem and mass (several wonderful masses, one as a teen,) a dozen symphonies, 35 concertos and scores of other music that is the equal to anyone that ever lived.
> 
> ...


Yeah I am not into Mozart myself apart from piano concerto but no one can deny how he managed to touch so many genres. I read a thread over here on composers' favorite composers and it seems like vast majority of artists seem to hold him into highest regard; perhaps due of his versatility.


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## chrish (Aug 21, 2016)

P.S. I reckon Schubert was even bigger loss. If I could extend the life span of single composer; it would be undoubtedly Schubert.


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