# Fav Opera



## 009 (Jul 16, 2004)

I love Mozart's Marriage of Figaro. This is an important work from a historical standpoint. Mozart's Figaro eventually sparked off the French Revolution.
I love opera...love the costumes, the music, the story lines, but I hate verdi, wagner and all romantic opera output. I can't stand the chromatism, esp. the recitative sections. And I really don't like the wagnerian type of orchestral sound. It's vulgar.
Mozart's Marriage of Figaro is jovial, and so is the music, gallant and hearty. My fav character is Cherubino...and I find it interesting how the opera company always get lyrical sopranos to sing his part. It's really a wise strategy, caz no voice can offer u the tenderness needed for the role of this youthful brat(Cherubino), unless u were to use a castrato like the olden days. The Castratos sounded really unique. I was told that they had the most beautiful tonal palette. Their voice sound much like a young girl, but much richer and without the tonal 'masking'. Their voice is pure and literally crystal clear.


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## Daniel (Jul 11, 2004)

Hey, no Wagner fan either! I don't like his music much and also not his personality. 

I like The magic flute, Carmen ( ).i love also Rossini stuff.  Barbier from Sevilla, Giollomo Tell... Weber has also a deep and a real opera flair.


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## Quaverion (Jul 20, 2004)

I like Carmen, too, but my favourite opera is Wagner's  Ring of the Nibelung.


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## Thomas (Jul 21, 2004)

I like the Magic Flute also, but particularly the story.


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## The Angel of Music (Jul 24, 2004)

OMG! I just auditioned for a opera at the local theater, and they might pick "The Marriage of Figaro!" I heard a song from Marriage of Figaro...and it is so awesome! It was a guy singing like, "la la la la la la etc." Coolies!!!! :lol:


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## Daniel (Jul 11, 2004)

> *"la la la la la la etc."*


LOL    Reminds me on many arias   

But the Marriage of Figaro is a great stuff indeed


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## 009 (Jul 16, 2004)

Hi Angel! What's yr voice part? BTW, yr male or female?


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## The Angel of Music (Jul 24, 2004)

I am what my singing teacher calls(she graduated from Manhattan School of Voice in New York...almost as good as Juilliard)..she calls me a, "Very Light Light Super High Coloratura Soprano :blink: ...eh...and I am a girl  . LOL. I know I can go up to a high "a" above regular...or something...and my teacher believes I can go higher...MUCH higher than that...but she says she doesn't want me to strain my voice too much.  *grumbles*. LOL. What type of voice are you?


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## The Angel of Music (Jul 24, 2004)

LOL, the "la la la la la la la la" reminds me of many arias I am to learn and am learning too


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## Thomas (Jul 21, 2004)

> *Very Light Light Super High Coloratura Soprano *


That means you will be exceptionally good in recitative and trills next time!


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## Nox (Jul 22, 2004)

I am not a big opera fan...although I'm trying...but I do like bits and pieces of various operas...like Figaro...LOL...


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## godzillaviolist (Jan 21, 2005)

*Opera*

I love opera! It was my first true introduction to music beyond baroque. You see, for my first three years of liking classical music... I only liked one kind of classical mysic; Baroque harpsichord music. Nothing else. I wouldn't even try anything else.
Then one day someone convinced me to listen to the end part of Bellini's Norma... I was hooked! I loved it. I then for about six konths listened to all the opera I could. I listened to everything from early baroque to Romantic. I was a complete opera fanatic for a year. I didn't get into symphonic and chamber music until later ( the music of Havergal Brian made me fall in love with orchestral music too ).
My favorite operas are ( in no particular order );

Mefistofele ( Boito )
Lucia di Lammermoor 
Lucretia Borgia
Maria Stuarda ( all Donizetti )
Anything ellse by Donizetti if sung well  
Norma ( Bellini )
Ruslan and Ludmilla ( Glinka )
Anything by Meyerbeer ( I adore his music, but it's so hard to find! )
Elektra ( My favorite Strauss opera; I sing the opening monologue by myself in the shower  )
King Roger ( I forgot who wrote it  )
Ariadne auf Naxos ( Another Strauss, love Zerbinetta's aria; can't sing it though! )
La Vestale ( Cherubini, but there is no good reccording out now )
Many baroque operas, which are good if practically interchangable 
Many other operas too, but I can't remember them right now

Operas I don't like;

Any Wagner
Any Mozart
Nearly all Britsh opera
Nearly all American opera ( Einstein can stay on the beach; I don't want him in the opera house! )
Many others that I can't remember and I probably don't want to.

Someone here said Mozart's Figaro started the french revolution; no more so than Beethoven's Eroica crowned Napoleon. Mozart was with the establishment. I think you are confusing what the opera is based on with the opera itself. Or Verdi, who really did help a start revolution.
godzilla


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## Daniel (Jul 11, 2004)

My last favourite opera is Il Barbier di Siviglia by Rossini. A funny opera, really to enjoy. I began to listen to more Wagner. I get a closer entrance than the times before...

And there was broadcasted a World Premiere Perfomance of an Opera by Mendelssohn (The uncle from Boston or the two newphes), written in the age of 13-15. As a pure Mendelssohnian I love it!!! It is a charming opera buffa in 3 acts, influenced by Weber and Mozart, but typical spreading and genious melodious and motif-working Felix!


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## Todd (Jul 17, 2005)

godzillaviolist said:


> King Roger ( I forgot who wrote it  )


Karol Szymanowski. It's a superb work.


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## godzillaviolist (Jan 21, 2005)

I feel a bit bad looking back on my list: so much has changed for me ( in taste and musical opion ) over time.


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## Gustav (Aug 29, 2005)

Here is a really entertaining opera, Die Lustige Witwe,"The Merry Widow" by Lehar, it's so light and viennese, and funny too.


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## val (Apr 7, 2005)

My 10 favorite operas:

1) Parsifal.
2) Oedipe (Enesco) a superb masterpiece that is so poorly known!
3) Verdi'Otello.
4) Tristan und Isolde.
5) Don Giovanni.
6) Boris Godunov.
7) Strauss' Elektra.
8) Khovanchina.
9) Wozzeck.
10) Norma.


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## urbandryad (Feb 8, 2006)

The Magic Flute is currently at the top of my list. I can't get the music from it out of my head! XD


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## Edward Elgar (Mar 22, 2006)

Magic Flute is my fav opera too. "Der Holle Rache" is the best use of a soprano voice ever!


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## linz (Oct 5, 2006)

val said:


> My 10 favorite operas:
> 
> 1) Parsifal.
> 2) Oedipe (Enesco) a superb masterpiece that is so poorly known!
> ...


Have you heard Abaddo's Wozzeck? its easily the best Expressionist opera.


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## Hannibal (Oct 8, 2006)

Favourite? Tosca. Preferably with Maria Callas.


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## Hexameron (Oct 7, 2006)

Mine's gotta be _Fidelio_


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## rojo (May 26, 2006)

Hannibal said:


> Favourite? Tosca. Preferably with Maria Callas.


Me too! Callas is the ultimate Tosca, imo.


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## linz (Oct 5, 2006)

Many opera's are highly impressive, but for the longest time, I had difficulty understanding the logic behind singing all the dialog even the mondane things, but then it occured to me that that's the point of a good libretist, to dispense of those things, and make all the dialog somewhat sentimental. One of my favorites is 'The Magic Flute' (with spoken dialog)


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## vivaciouswagnerian (Jul 21, 2005)

Alright, time for the opera major to stretch, lol.

My favorite opera would have to be Der Rosenkavalier. Strauss is always at the top of my lists, hehe. 
The list would probably continue:

2. Carmen
3. Pagliacci or Gianni Schicci (depending on whether I want a comedy or tragedy)
4. Lucia de Lammermoor
5. Manon
6. Tosca
7. La Traviata
8. Marriage of Figaro
9. Valis (by Tod Machover, modern opera)
10. Lulu or Wozzek


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## DanielFullard (Dec 6, 2006)

For me its rather predictable ones...

Carmen
La boheme
Barber of Seville


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## Chi_townPhilly (Apr 21, 2007)

vivaciouswagnerian said:


> My favorite opera would have to be Der Rosenkavalier. Strauss is always at the top of my lists, hehe.
> The list would probably continue:
> 
> 2. Carmen
> ...


This person should be enjoined to turn in his screen name So taking my turn, I say:
1-8: Any Wagner repertory opera except _Lohengrin_ or _Flying Dutchman_
Favorite Italian Opera: Any Verdi "galley opera."
Favorite French Opera: Easy. _Carmen_ 
Favorite non-German/non-Romance language Opera: Smetana's _The Bartered Bride_.
Most underrated Opera: Ambroise Thomas' _Mignon_.


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## Handel (Apr 18, 2007)

My top 5

1: Don Giovanni (Mozart)
2: Hercules (Handel)* it is considered as an oratorio. But its structure is more an english opera.
3: Alcina (Handel)
4: Magic Flute (Mozart)
5: Giulio Cesare in Egitto (Handel)


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## Rod Corkin (Jun 1, 2007)

Handel said:


> My top 5
> 
> 1: Don Giovanni (Mozart)
> 2: Hercules (Handel)* it is considered as an oratorio. But its structure is more an english opera.
> ...


Don Giovanni above those works of Handel? Are you serious? I once made the effort to see DG live in London, I spent most of the final act looking at my watch. There is a lot of bland music in Mozart's operas.

You could mention a few more great Handel operas like Ariodante, Deidamia, Orlando, Tamerlano, Agrippina etc etc.

Other than these I look to Beethoven's Fidelio, unsurpassed in itself.


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## Handel (Apr 18, 2007)

Rod Corkin said:


> Don Giovanni above those works of Handel? Are you serious? I once made the effort to see DG live in London, I spent most of the final act looking at my watch. There is a lot of bland music in Mozart's operas.
> 
> You could mention a few more great Handel operas like Ariodante, Deidamia, Orlando, Tamerlano, Agrippina etc etc.
> 
> Other than these I look to Beethoven's Fidelio, unsurpassed in itself.


Hey, it's MY top 5. Not THE top 5.


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## Guest (Jun 2, 2007)

This thread began with a critic of romantic operas and chromatism, etc… I beg your pardon, but my favorite operas are not classical:

1. Faust (Gounod) : _cf the picture_
2. La Boheme (Puccini)
3. Lucia di Lammermoor (Donizetti)
4. La Sonnambula (Bellini)
5. Pelléas et Mélisande (Debussy)

but I listen many others with great pleasure…


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## Caronome (Mar 6, 2007)

I have many MANY "favorite" operas, but these are the ones that are special to me:

(not in order, except for Turandot)

1) Turandot 
2) La Traviata
3) Tosca
4) The Marriage of Figaro
5) The Barber of Seville
6) Rigoletto
7) Lucia di Lammermoor
8) Andrea Chenier
9) The Magic Flute
10) Der Rosenkavalier


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## pasoleati (Aug 28, 2008)

My favourites are
-Boris Godunov 
-War and Peace (especially thye latter half)
-A Life for the Tsar
-Legend of the Invisible Village of Kitezh


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## orquesta tipica (Jan 17, 2007)

Gustav said:


> Here is a really entertaining opera, Die Lustige Witwe,"The Merry Widow" by Lehar, it's so light and viennese, and funny too.


That was also Hitler's favorite opera, I bet you didn't know. At least that's what I read in the book, "Hitler's Vienna". It doesn't mean anything, really...

My aunt was talking to me about my grandfather once and I happened to mention he was born the same year as Hitler, and I think I might have upset her a little bit.

I guess some people don't like trivia...

My favorite opera, if I had to choose one, is a Wagner opera, actually - Die Meistersinger von Nürnberg. I have yet to ever see a live performance of it, but my local opera company won't do anything that lasts more than 3 hours, so I'd have to make a special trip somewhere.

I'm also most fond of Purcell's Dido and Aeneas, Mozart's Don Giovanni, The Marriage of Figaro, All Women are Like That, and The Magic Flute, Berg's Wozzeck, Weill's The Threepenny Opera, and Shostakovich's The Lady MacBeth of Mtsensk District.


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## jhar26 (Jul 6, 2008)

The Angel of Music said:


> OMG! I just auditioned for a opera at the local theater, and they might pick "The Marriage of Figaro!" I heard a song from Marriage of Figaro...and it is so awesome! It was a guy singing like, "la la la la la la etc." Coolies!!!! :lol:


Yes, nobody can deny that that Da Ponte guy really had a way with words.


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## jhar26 (Jul 6, 2008)

DW said:


> Mozart's Marriage of Figaro is jovial, and so is the music, gallant and hearty. My fav character is Cherubino...and I find it interesting how the opera company always get lyrical sopranos to sing his part. It's really a wise strategy, caz no voice can offer u the tenderness needed for the role of this youthful brat(Cherubino), unless u were to use a castrato like the olden days. The Castratos sounded really unique. I was told that they had the most beautiful tonal palette. Their voice sound much like a young girl, but much richer and without the tonal 'masking'. Their voice is pure and literally crystal clear.


I'm glad they don't use countertenors instead. I can get into it once they get going, but at the beginning I always have to laugh to see such a guy appear on stage and then he opens his mouth and out comes this wimpy sound - and they often get to sing the role of some heroic, virile historical or mythological figure in baroque operas too. Very funny indeed. But their sound is said to resemble that of the castratos of old the most, so I guess it's only natural that their singing lacks balls.


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## Elgarian (Jul 30, 2008)

Although (I feel inadequate to the task, I'd like to have a go at playing this game, if only to see what the result is! I'll start with the shortlist:

1. _The Ring_. For quite a while, _The Ring_ was almost the only opera I could listen to. I couldn't really see it as the same kind of thing as 'ordinary' operas, and it became, for some years, one of the most important inspirational works of art in my imaginative life. To call it a 'favourite' wouldn't somehow be right. It seemed, and still seems, separate from everything else. So I'll put _The Ring_ in a category all of its own.

2. _Der Rosenkavalier_. There are all sorts of things about it that make me uneasy and squirm a bit. And it seems too long, and there are too many dull bits. But it contains some of the finest passages of music that I've ever heard, and the 'Presentation of the Silver Rose' music takes me to places and heights that no other music can manage. So _Rosenkavalier_ has to be in this list.

3. There has to be some Puccini, and I think it has to be _La Boheme_, but there's no way I can leave out _Suor Angelica_, either, especially because it keeps my tear ducts exercised. (Why on earth do people dismiss this as 'sentimental'?). So I'll have both.

4. There'd be a big heap of French opera in my list, which would whittle down I think to:
_Manon_ (Massenet) - even though I should know better, I'm infatuated with her.
_Mignon_ (Thomas) - I agree with the chap, way back in this thread, who said it was wrongly neglected.
_Romeo et Juliette_ (Gounod) - Oh, what tunes!
I still have a lot of exploring to do in the French opera zone, so this list is likely to change.

The alarming disclosure I have to make is that there would be no Mozart in my list. I dearly wish I could get it, but it's been years and years, and I can't. Oh, there's the odd aria here and there, of course, but a complete Mozart opera, no. The closest I get is _La Clemenza di Tito_, which actually I can listen to quite a lot of - yet I believe this is generally regarded as a failure, and one of his weakest - which is a bit like having salt rubbed in the wound, since it emphasises how badly I fail to 'get' the other 'good' ones. I haven't given up on them, but my optimism is flagging.


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## FlyMe (Oct 7, 2008)

It depends what day of the week it is!

Could not live without Peter Grimes, or the Ring, or Figaro, or Turnadot and the Barber has to come along too. If it is summer I need The Dream, in winter I am happy to curl up with Rigeletto, to travel to paradise bring me Samson, but to send me to sleep it is Pelias.


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## Zombo (Oct 5, 2008)

The Consul by Menotti
Boris Godunov
Wozzeck


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## Atabey (Oct 8, 2008)

My favourites in no particular order:

All Wagner
All Strauss
Boris Godunov
Lady Macbeth of Mtsenk
Lulu
Wozzeck
Turandot
La Boheme
Tosca
La Traviata
Aida
Pearl Fishers


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## Isabelle (Oct 16, 2008)

In no order I like these a lot:

La Traviata
Norma
Manon Lescaut
Most Verdi opera´s
Most Puccini opera´s
And a random recent addition: Dido and Aeneas


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## msegers (Oct 17, 2008)

This surprises me, but my first response to this question, without thinking about it, was _Der Rosenkavalier_. I suspect that I identify with the Marschallin more and more. And there is just so much glorious music there.


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## bryzeida (Oct 26, 2008)

As most of you here do, I also have quite a bunch of favourite operas... but among all of them, sometimes I feel that Don Giovanni is the most perfect work of art ever made . So I guess that's my favourite one...


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## BobR (Nov 3, 2008)

As the newest and least knowledgeable on this board, I'll speculate that our likes and dislikes are often shaped by exposure. I heard mostly Italian and French opera when I was growing up, so it's no surprise that Puccini is at the top of my list, from Le Villi to Turnadot. I've never liked baroque music, but then, I've never taken the time to really LISTEN to it. That is, until I recently acquired a DVD of Orphee et Eurydice and became mildly besotted by it.

A good voice can sing almost anything and it will catch my attention, and once I hear it several times I can learn to like it. Even some Mozart, I suppose. ;-)


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## jhar26 (Jul 6, 2008)

1 *Mozart - Le Nozze di Figaro/Don Giovanni/Cosi Fan Tutte/Die Zauberflote*. I 'don't get' that some people 'don't get' him. Mozart is my number one guy as far as operas are concerned. If I had to choose only one it would be *Le Nozze di Figaro*, but the other three mentionned above come very, very close - all four make my top 10 overall. Slightly behind those, but still big faves are *Idomeneo* and *Die Entfuhrung Ause Dem Serail*.

My fave Mozart Opera recordings:
























Fave DVD:


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## jhar26 (Jul 6, 2008)

2 *Strauss - Der Rosenkavalier*. I think I would rank that one at number two in my overall list of faves. I also love *Salome*, *Elektra*, *Ariadne Auf Naxos*, *Die Frau Ohne Schatten* and his less than great (but still very good) works like *Arabella* and *Capriccio*. In short - I'm a sucker for Strauss.

My fave *Der Rosenkavalier* recordings:

















Fave DVD:




















Also have to mention this incredible *Elektra* movie:


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## jhar26 (Jul 6, 2008)

3 *Puccini - La Boheme/Tosca/Madama Butterfly/Turandot* and slightly behind those also the other Puccini's - especially *Manon Lescaut* and *La Fanciulla del West*.

Fave Puccini recordings:
























BTW - when it comes to Puccini this woman is God.


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## Elgarian (Jul 30, 2008)

jhar26 said:


>


I don't have an extensive knowledge of different performances of Rosenkavalier, but I have no trouble in agreeing that that DVD is sheer magic. It's visually very beautiful, and while Kiri seems to me simply to _become_ the Marschallin, similarly Anne Howells and Barbara Bonney seem to make a definitive Octavian and Sophie.

Even watching this, though (and I feel like an ignorant barbarian when I say it), I ought to admit that while acknowledging that it contains some of the finest music I know, I do get fidgety at times, and feel the opera needs a bit of judicious pruning.


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## Chi_townPhilly (Apr 21, 2007)

jhar26 said:


> 1 *Mozart - Le Nozze di Figaro/Don Giovanni/Cosi Fan Tutte/Die Zauberflote*.


It seems you don't see *Cosi* frequently listed among Mozart's top-most inspirations, just like you don't often see Wagner's *Tannhäuser* reckoned on the short-list of masterworks from the Master of Bayrueth. [Though let me add that I *do* appreciate the advocacy for *Cosi*.] I think that the two share a parallel reason for this accounting, and that is that they share that 'of their age' feeling to their story-lines.

A better understanding of *Cosi Fan Tutte* can be had through some knowledge of the late 18th century backdrop to its composition, just like recognition that *Tannhäuser * was composed during the heart of the reign of Victoria can contribute to better absorption of that work. [We should remember that the term "Victorian Age" summons a mind-set limited not just to Britain.] This isn't to say that such consideration doesn't enhance an understanding of an even broader array of music. My point is that it's particularly beneficial for these two pieces.

Even if one isn't particularly given to such reflections, *Cosi* and *Tannhäuser* should be more widely appreciated for that audio-company commerical slogan... "_because the Music matters._"


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## jhar26 (Jul 6, 2008)

Elgarian said:


> I don't have an extensive knowledge of different performances of Rosenkavalier, but I have no trouble in agreeing that that DVD is sheer magic. It's visually very beautiful, and while Kiri seems to me simply to _become_ the Marschallin, similarly Anne Howells and Barbara Bonney seem to make a definitive Octavian and Sophie.
> 
> Even watching this, though (and I feel like an ignorant barbarian when I say it), I ought to admit that while acknowledging that it contains some of the finest music I know, I do get fidgety at times, and feel the opera needs a bit of judicious pruning.


I think there's usually more lost than gained by making cuts. For example, when listening to that *Cosi Fan Tutte* recording of Bohm that I listed as a fave - and which except for a few cuts is magnificent IMO - I always got the impression that Dorabella and Fiordiligi were sort of interchangeable. Two women with more or less the same personality. Only years later when I heard an uncut version I found out that Wolfie made them different.

So, even though some operas might lose nothing from a musical perspective (or in a few cases even improve) if we let scissor-man do his job, we may end up viewing the characters differently from what the composer and librettist intended. Even in the bits from *Rosenkavalier* that you don't like Strauss and Hofmannsthal are telling us something about the story and the people involved that they think we should know.


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## jhar26 (Jul 6, 2008)

Chi_town/Philly said:


> It seems you don't see *Cosi* frequently listed among Mozart's top-most inspirations, just like you don't often see Wagner's *Tannhäuser* reckoned on the short-list of masterworks from the Master of Bayrueth. [Though let me add that I *do* appreciate the advocacy for *Cosi*.] I think that the two share a parallel reason for this accounting, and that is that they share that 'of their age' feeling to their story-lines.
> 
> A better understanding of *Cosi Fan Tutte* can be had through some knowledge of the late 18th century backdrop to its composition, just like recognition that *Tannhäuser * was composed during the heart of the reign of Victoria can contribute to better absorption of that work. [We should remember that the term "Victorian Age" summons a mind-set limited not just to Britain.] This isn't to say that such consideration doesn't enhance an understanding of an even broader array of music. My point is that it's particularly beneficial for these two pieces.
> 
> Even if one isn't particularly given to such reflections, *Cosi* and *Tannhäuser* should be more widely appreciated for that audio-company commerical slogan... "_because the Music matters._"


Well, the story of *Cosi Fan Tutte* is a bit silly, and when we're in a PC mood even a bit sexist to 21st century ears I suppose. In the 19th century they objected to it on moral grounds. If I remember correctly even Beethoven didn't like it for that reason. It wasn't until the 20th century that it took it's place in the public's minds alongside (well, almost anyway) *Le Nozze di Figaro*, *Don Giovanni* and *Die Zauberflote* as one of Mozart's masterpieces. And rightfully so IMO because the music is sublime.

Most Wagnerians don't regard *Tannhauser* as one of his best efforts, but I like it. Anyway - it's an easier way into Wagner than *Tristan* or *The Ring* IMO.


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## Elgarian (Jul 30, 2008)

jhar26 said:


> I think there's usually more lost than gained by making cuts.


Oh yes I agree with you. _Rosenkavalier_ is what it is, and I don't think anyone else should start messing about with it. When I'm doing my little squirming episodes in the bits that seem to drag, my wish (pointless though it may be) is for _Strauss_ to have arranged things differently; I wouldn't trust anyone else (and certainly not me) to do it. But if I'm honest, I have to say that most of my listening to _Rosenkavalier_ is via the magnificent 1970s highlights recording made by Alexander Gibson and the Scottish National: partly because of the 'highlights' aspect, but also because Teresa Cahill and Anne Howells together are my favourite Sophie and Octavian, and this is the only way I can get them.

Incidentally, the bits I have most trouble with are things like the farcical elements in Act 3 - with the Baron and Octavian-as-maid, and the secret doors, etc. When you don't find _any_ of it funny, that does seem to last an awfully long time!


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## PostMinimalist (May 14, 2008)

1. Tosca,
2. Butterfly,
3. Turandot,
4. Everthing else except Verdi!
5. Verdi


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## Elgarian (Jul 30, 2008)

jhar26 said:


> 3 *Puccini - La Boheme/Tosca/Madama Butterfly/Turandot* and slightly behind those also the other Puccini's - especially *Manon Lescaut* and *La Fanciulla del West*.


I was just reading back through this thread when I noticed the absence of _Suor Angelica_ from your list, and I wondered if that's because, like me until quite recently, you hadn't heard it? If you haven't - and bearing in mind from this and previous discussions that our tastes specifically with regard to things Puccini-esque seem to overlap quite a bit - then I think a Puccini bombshell awaits you.

Or maybe you already know it and it didn't work for you? I'd be really interested to know.


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## jhar26 (Jul 6, 2008)

Elgarian said:


> I was just reading back through this thread when I noticed the absence of _Suor Angelica_ from your list, and I wondered if that's because, like me until quite recently, you hadn't heard it? If you haven't - and bearing in mind from this and previous discussions that our tastes specifically with regard to things Puccini-esque seem to overlap quite a bit - then I think a Puccini bombshell awaits you.
> 
> Or maybe you already know it and it didn't work for you? I'd be really interested to know.


*Le Villi* and *Edgar* (his first two) are the only of his operas that I haven't heard. The only Puccini opera that I know and don't like much is *La Rondine* which is sort of a poor man's *La Traviata*. I like *Suor Angelica* though.


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## Elgarian (Jul 30, 2008)

jhar26 said:


> I like *Suor Angelica* though.


Well, there you go. I didn't just like _Suor Angelica _; it blew me away like a hurricane and left me wondering what hit me. So you never can tell, after all .... (which is just as well).


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## jhar26 (Jul 6, 2008)

Elgarian said:


> Well, there you go. I didn't just like _Suor Angelica _; it blew me away like a hurricane and left me wondering what hit me. So you never can tell, after all .... (which is just as well).


One that blew me away just the other day is Rimsky-Korsakov's *Sadko*. The singers are good, but not 'great' (except for one of the females - Marianna Tarassova) and it's not big on drama, but it almost doesn't matter. It's very entertaining, the music is very, very good and visually it's stunning. It's a masterpiece really.


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## Elgarian (Jul 30, 2008)

jhar26 said:


> One that blew me away just the other day is Rimsky-Korsakov's *Sadko*. The singers are good, but not 'great' (except for one of the females - Marianna Tarassova) and it's not big on drama, but it almost doesn't matter. It's very entertaining, the music is very, very good and visually it's stunning. It's a masterpiece really.


Isn't it marvellous when that happens? There's no need to justify it, is there? As you say, you may be able to see all sorts of limitations if you sit back and look at it calmly, but why not just let it hit you for six and revel in it.

I haven't even heard of it, you know, so I'm really glad you've pointed it out.


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## jhar26 (Jul 6, 2008)

Elgarian said:


> Isn't it marvellous when that happens? There's no need to justify it, is there? As you say, you may be able to see all sorts of limitations if you sit back and look at it calmly, but why not just let it hit you for six and revel in it.
> 
> I haven't even heard of it, you know, so I'm really glad you've pointed it out.


I agree. Sometimes there's a danger of analysing things to death. No need to question yourself when you really enjoy something.

BTW - while *Rimsky-Korsakov* is mostly known for his orchestral work in the west, in Russia his operas are just as famous. And *Sadko* is regarded as his best.


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## jhar26 (Jul 6, 2008)

*Elisabeth Schwarzkopf* in the act 1 monologue from *Der Rosenkavalier*






Some of the most beautiful music ever IMO. *Elisabeth Schwarzkopf, Sena Jurinac* and *Anneliese Rothenberger* in the act 3 trio.


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## Elgarian (Jul 30, 2008)

jhar26 said:


> BTW - while *Rimsky-Korsakov* is mostly known for his orchestral work in the west, in Russia his operas are just as famous. And *Sadko* is regarded as his best.


The only one I ever tried was _Le Coq d'Or_, but couldn't get anywhere with it. Is _Sadko_ anything like that?


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## jhar26 (Jul 6, 2008)

Elgarian said:


> The only one I ever tried was _Le Coq d'Or_, but couldn't get anywhere with it. Is _Sadko_ anything like that?


I have no idea. I'm not familiar with *Le Coq d'Or*.


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## Elgarian (Jul 30, 2008)

jhar26 said:


> I'm not familiar with *Le Coq d'Or*.


It so happens, I see, that there's a version going free on Opera Today, with Beverley Sills, and sung in English:

http://www.operatoday.com/content/2007/07/rimsky-korsakov.php

If you end up on a Rimsky Korsakov binge, you might find it helpful as a taster? I might even try it again myself, when I climb off my Bellini roundabout.


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## jhar26 (Jul 6, 2008)

Elgarian said:


> It so happens, I see, that there's a version going free on Opera Today, with Beverley Sills, and sung in English:
> 
> http://www.operatoday.com/content/2007/07/rimsky-korsakov.php
> 
> If you end up on a Rimsky Korsakov binge, you might find it helpful as a taster? I might even try it again myself, when I climb off my Bellini roundabout.


I was unaware of this site. Thanks for the link - lots of interesting stuff there.


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## PostMinimalist (May 14, 2008)

jhar26 said:


> *Le Villi* and *Edgar* (his first two) are the only of his operas that I haven't heard. The only Puccini opera that I know and don't like much is *La Rondine* which is sort of a poor man's *La Traviata*. I like *Suor Angelica* though.


Talking of Edgar and of course totally off the point, I'd like to point out this little observation - If anyone has heard Howells's 1st piano concerto and Edgar in the same week will suffer from Deja -vu! I don't know which came first but they have a lot in common. Not that there was any direct quoting or anything but the sound pallet (orchestration, harmony, romantic climax etc) were so similar I had to do a double take!
FC


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

Good to see that Berg's Wozzeck is liked by a few people. I prefer it to some of the more traditional operas - at least it has a more plausible plot. It still strikes a chord, and is very relevant. Of course, its depressing, but I don't listen to it all the time. I find the psychological drama it represents just gripping. And its also not too long, relatively concise, which is good. It's the only opera I have in full, other than Bank Ban and Laszlo Hunyadi by Hungarian C19th composer Ferenc Erkel. Now I bet no one else has heard about those two, they are unknown apart from in Hungary.


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## World Violist (May 31, 2007)

My favorite opera is really the only one I've heard in full: Curlew River, by Benjamin Britten.

However, I'm looking into Strauss and Wagner, as well as hopefully getting a recording of Peter Grimes someday... soon... maybe?


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## JoeGreen (Nov 17, 2008)

I'll have to say Verdi's *Falstaff*. This work is a miralce of human art, at the age of 80 the gran' ol man of Italian opera proved that he was not only capapble of beating Wagner at his own game but he could still keep up with the younger generations.

IMHO, I think *Falstaff* is a masterpiece to rival *La Nozze Di Figaro*, and not only a masterpiece of music but of human art in general.

I implore that if you haven't heard it to at least check it out once.


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## tahnak (Jan 19, 2009)

*Favourite Opera*

Tchaikovsky's Yevgeny Onegin


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## Mtl (Mar 8, 2009)

I love Macbeth! J have seen it Toronto, Montreal, and New-York. I have 4 different versions of that opera on DVD. All these are staged so amazingly differently and yet they all have their moments of greatness. I don't presume to know much about singning except for the fact that I do appreciate the talented and dedicated people that have chosen that career path. 

The one thing that has always amazed me is the fact that I can just turn off the world and pick-up a DVD or a CD from my collection and just be enthralled for a couple of hours. The fact that I can and have listened to probably more concerts and operas (some more than 20 times) than any people living 60 or 70 years ago is amazing to me. 

As for my favorite operas here is my list ans it is somewhat chronological. It begins with the first opera I saw and had to purchase 35 years ago:

Wagner- The ring cycle
Rossini - Le barbier de Séville, La Cenerentola 
Verdi - Macbeth, Nabucco, Traviata, (all of Verdi in fact)
Bellini - Norma, Lucia di Lammermoore

I have bought mutiple DVD's of different opera companies of all the above and I'm sure that when a new Macbeth or Nabucco or a new Norma comes on the market I will add them to my collection and will undoubtedly have pleasure discovering a new point de vue or a different and sometimes surprising yet amazing staging of a piece that one would have thought that we had seen and heard the definitive version. That will always surprise me or so I hope


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## Elgarian (Jul 30, 2008)

Mtl said:


> The fact that I can and have listened to probably more concerts and operas (some more than 20 times) than any people living 60 or 70 years ago is amazing to me.


How true! We often forget that compared to previous generations, we live like kings and queens. We have a mass of luxury, art, and music continually available to us that would be the envy even of the richest of the rich, 100 years ago.


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## JoeGreen (Nov 17, 2008)

DW said:


> but I hate verdi, wagner and all romantic opera output. I can't stand the chromatism, esp. the recitative sections. And I really don't like the wagnerian type of orchestral sound. It's vulgar.


Heh, I barely read the first post. All I will say about above qoute is, pfhh whatever...


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## Gneiss (Feb 3, 2009)

La Traviata - Verdi, I just love the Violetta arias and duets.....


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## jhar26 (Jul 6, 2008)

JoeGreen said:


> Heh, I barely read the first post. All I will say about above qoute is, pfhh whatever...


Everything from _Rigoletto_ onwards is great and the ones before that that I've heard all have their moments.


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## World Violist (May 31, 2007)

Now my favorite of the operas I've heard has to be Lady Macbeth of Mtsensk, by Shostakovich. I actually feel as though I'm getting a full picture of everything that's happening, and it's all so concise!

I still have to familiarize with Wagner, but out of his operas I rather like Die Walkure... quite intense.


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## confuoco (Feb 8, 2008)

*Wagner:* Tristan und Isolde
Meistersinger
*Debussy:* Pelleas et Melisande
*Dvorak:* Rusalka
*Bizet:*Carmen
*Janacek:* Cunning Little Vixen
Jenufa
*Poulenc*: all his operas


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## ecg_fa (Nov 10, 2008)

I like a whole lot of operas-- most of the Verdi ones; Wagner-- esp. the Ring, Mozart's 'main' ones (& a couple even of the minor ones like Abduction from the Seraglio and Zaide), and others. Todays faves :

DON GIOVANNI--MOZART
DER ROSENKAVALIER-- R. STRAUSS
MARRIAGE OF FIGARO--MOZART
LES TROYENS-- BERLIOZ
LADY MACBETH OF MTENSK-- SHOSTOKOVICH
PETER GRIMES-- BRITTEN
LA BOHEME-- PUCCINI
GIULIO CESARE-- HANDEL
COSI FAN TUTTE-- MOZART
CORONATION OF POPPAEA--MONTEVERDI
IL TROVATORE/LA TRAVIATA/OTHELLO/DON CARLOS-- VERDI. Can't really pick among em. Don Carlos I admit to preferring listening to to seeing-- I've never seen a really successful production but I love the music .
DIE WALKURE--WAGNER
CARMEN-- BIZET
MADAME BUTTERFLY--PUCCINI
RUSALKA-- DVORAK
MEDEE-- CHARPENTIER (Baroque composer, not the 19th century one)
NORMA--BELLINI
FIDELIO--BEETHOVEN
BARBER OF SEVILLE--ROSSINI
LOVE OF THREE ORANGES--PROKOFIEV 
TOSCA--PUCCINI
EUGENE ONEGIN--TSCHAIKOVSKY
AIDA--VERDI
TRISTAN UND ISOLDE-- WAGNER (more to hear than see I admit)
SAMSON AND DELILAH--SAINT SAENS
DAS RHEINGOLD-- WAGNER
LUCIA DE LAMMERMOOR-- DONIZETTI
BENEVENUTO CELLINI--BERLIOZ
LA FANCIULLA DEL WEST--PUCCINI
ARABELLA--R. STRAUSS.

And others!! I only include ones here I've seen on stage as well as heard. Several I enjoy listening to but not sure what 'overall' stage/listening would be. 

Ed


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## JoeGreen (Nov 17, 2008)

ecg_fa said:


> DON CARLOS-- VERDI. Can't really pick among em. Don Carlos I admit to preferring listening to to seeing-- I've never seen a really successful production but I love the music .


Yes, it is definitely the underrated masterpiece of Verdi; dark, brooding, tense, and the family conflict is just great. Love it. 
Who can't get depressed during King Phillip's aria at the start of Act 4?


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## andruini (Apr 14, 2009)

well, i'm not really an opera fan, but i have enjoyed these:

The Bartered Bride (Smetana)
Peter Grimes (Britten)
The Ring Cycle (Wagner)
Don Giovanni (Mozart)
Nixon in China (Adams)

and if they count i totally totally love Philip Glass' operas, particularly Einstein on the Beach and The Photographer.


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## JoeGreen (Nov 17, 2008)

_Nixon in China_ is a great example of 20th century Opera I like it very much.

I also like for the Philip Glass' opera pieces, for the most part.

I love the beginning to _Satyagarah_ and I believe it's scene 2 or 1?? of Act 2.

Never heard of _The Photographer_, I'll have to check that one out.


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## andruini (Apr 14, 2009)

you should definitely check out The Photographer.. it's shorter than most of his other Operas, but it's definitely great.. 

have you heard/seen Adams' Doctor Atomic yet?? i missed the live broadcast from the Met, and i've only heard his Doctor Atomic Symphony, but i'm absolutely dying to finally see/hear all of it..


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## JoeGreen (Nov 17, 2008)

andruini said:


> you should definitely check out The Photographer.. it's shorter than most of his other Operas, but it's definitely great..
> 
> have you heard/seen Adams' Doctor Atomic yet?? i missed the live broadcast from the Met, and i've only heard his Doctor Atomic Symphony, but i'm absolutely dying to finally see/hear all of it..


One question, does _The Photographer_ have a linear plot? I mean it wouldn't bother too much, but less if it did.

I've heard clips and a couple of arias from _Doctor Atomic _but not the entire thing. Although the one I'm more intersted in hearing is Adams' _A flowering tree_ which came out in 2006.


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## andruini (Apr 14, 2009)

JoeGreen said:


> One question, does _The Photographer_ have a linear plot? I mean it wouldn't bother too much, but less if it did.


well, it does have a plot, and a story.. it's based on this:

"In 1872, businessman and former Governor of California Leland Stanford hired Muybridge to settle a question (not a bet, as is popularly believed): Stanford claimed that there was a point in a horse's full gallop when all four hooves were off the ground. To answer this proposition, Muybridge developed a scheme for instantaneous picture capture. Muybridge's technology involved prescriptive chemical bath formulas and an electrical trigger created by Stanford's electrical engineer, John D. Issacs.
In 1874, still living in the San Francisco Bay Area, Muybridge discovered that his wife had a lover, a Major Harry Larkyns. On October 17, 1874, he sought out Larkyns; said, "Good evening, Major, my name is Muybridge and here is the answer to the letter you sent my wife"; and shot and killed him. He was put on trial for the killing, but acquitted of the killing on the grounds that it was "justifiable homicide." This incident marked the last time an admitted murder in passion in California was not to be punished except by reason of insanity.
Muybridge thought his wife's son had been fathered by Larkyns (although, as an adult, the young man bore a remarkable resemblance to Muybridge). After the acquittal, Muybridge left the U.S. for a time and photographed in Central America, returning in 1877.
By 1878, Muybridge had successfully photographed a horse in fast motion using a series of fifty cameras. Each of the cameras were arranged along a track parallel to the horse's, and each of the camera shutters were controlled by trip wires which were triggered by the horse's hooves. This series of photos, taken at what is now Stanford University, is called The Horse in Motion, and shows that, indeed, the hooves all leave the ground."
(from Wikipedia)

it's much in the style of Glass' other operas.. since it's more of a chamber opera, it's not really long.. it's not your usual opera, though.. i'm not even sure the term should be applied (that's why i said "if they count" in my first post).. you know what i mean, surely.. but the music is quite fantastic, in my opinion..


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## JoeGreen (Nov 17, 2008)

^^^ alright, well sounds interesting.


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## Gneiss (Feb 3, 2009)

jhar26 said:


> BTW - when it comes to Puccini this woman is God.


When I first saw that picture I thought it was Victoria de los Angeles who incidentally I don't think gets enough praise...


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## Elgarian (Jul 30, 2008)

Gneiss said:


> When I first saw that picture I thought it was Victoria de los Angeles


Oooohhh. No no, there's only one Mirella.


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## Gneiss (Feb 3, 2009)

I have to confess I only really know her as Mimi from old recordings... 

As, staying on topic, La Boheme is another of my favourite operas. There is a late 1960s live recording of her playing the part alongside Pavarotti floating around somewhere.


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## katdad (Jan 1, 2009)

Agreed -- Falstaff is a true masterpiece, and it was written when Verdi (Joe Green) was "over the hill" and semi-retired! Showed them, eh?

I'd still say that my fave Verdi opera is Rigoletto. It's probably the most intensely nasty and "evil" of all well known works. As Bev Sills said once, "Nobody in it is any damn good." (meaning morally, of course) Even Gilda has this fixation on the Duke like some trailer trash castoff whose man beats her but she still loves him.

The story reminds me of Poe's terrifying "Hopfrog", at least in the way that Rigoletto hates the Duke and everyone in court.

My fave recording is the RCA Red Seal re-issue conducted by Solti, with Merrill, Moffo, etc. It's truly one of the best full length CDs of any opera -- superb singing, great conducting, a great listening experience. And a real bargain, too.

One tiny portion of this is when Rigoletto returns to the castle, seeking his daughter after she was kidnapped, and ends up being taunted by the courtiers. If you listen to that sequence, Rigoletto tries to make a joke and the courtiers respond with this flat, atonal "Ha, ha, ha" that is chilling in its nastiness.

I was so thrilled to later be on stage, singing chorus, and to actually portray one of these evil men. Ha, ha, ha!


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## jhar26 (Jul 6, 2008)

Gneiss said:


> I have to confess I only really know her as Mimi from old recordings...
> 
> As, staying on topic, La Boheme is another of my favourite operas. There is a late 1960s live recording of her playing the part alongside Pavarotti floating around somewhere.


Could be. There's also a DVD of her singing Mimi alongside Pavarotti. And then there's the truly classic studio recording of them with Karajan.


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## jhar26 (Jul 6, 2008)

Gneiss said:


> When I first saw that picture I thought it was Victoria de los Angeles who incidentally I don't think gets enough praise...


She was also a great Mimi.


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## wolf (May 16, 2009)

Gneiss said:


> When I first saw that picture I thought it was Victoria de los Angeles who incidentally I don't think gets enough praise...


She gets praise from people without "long ears" as Mozart used to say. The 1956 Beecham/Björling/DeLosAngeles 'Boheme' is still considered unbeatable. Singers who didn't swallow the microphone when breathing, unforgettable. If Victoria was singing today I'd run to the Opera House wherever it was...

Of course the pack would still go for the singing ****, but believe me, cognoscenti would rather listen to DeLosAngeles any day.


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## bdelykleon (May 21, 2009)

Easy one: Le Nozze de Figaro, my favorite not only opera, but piece of music as well.


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## wolf (May 16, 2009)

bdelykleon said:


> Easy one: Le Nozze de Figaro, my favorite not only opera, but piece of music as well.


Actually not even Don Giovanni has so many 'jewels', almost EVERYTHING in Figaro is just PERFECT. The overture is the best in operatic history, the sextet is a marvel, count/Susanna, Figaro/Susanna both duets in the beg, countess 2 arias, Figaros bravura aria, Counts - conventional though wonderful - Susannas last, Cherubinos both, ending of 2nd act, OH GOD!, a marvellous marvel of geniality. And we haven't even BEGUN to talk about the wonderful charachterizations.

Don Giovanni is spectacular in it's way - but the sheer "unity of beauty" in Figaro beats everything on the operatic stage. Ever. It's perfection. It's the school of Athens in music...And I do love Wagner and Verdi, but...


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## jhar26 (Jul 6, 2008)

bdelykleon said:


> Le Nozze de Figaro, my favorite not only opera, but piece of music as well.


Same here.


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## StlukesguildOhio (Dec 25, 2006)

_Le Nozze de Figaro_

Indeed... although I still hold a soft spot for _The Magic Flute_ and am blown away by _Tristan and Isolde_.


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## Lisztfreak (Jan 4, 2007)

I like Purcell's _Dido and Aeneas _a lot. Not too long, very concise and some outright splendid music there, even though I'm not a baroque fan otherwise. So it might be my favourite, although I haven't heard many operas at all.

Also Delius' _Koanga_ and Janáček's _Katja Kabanova_.

I haven't heard a single Italian opera, so shame on me!


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## StlukesguildOhio (Dec 25, 2006)

...Delius' Koanga...

I've been looking for this one after being more than pleasantly surprised with Delius' _A Village Romeo and Juliet_. Unfortunately its been out of print for a while and getting a copy is a bit pricey in comparison to many other works that I also lust after.


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## haydnguy (Oct 13, 2008)

I haven't seen many operas (all on DVD) but my favorite thus far is Wozzek.


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## Ravellian (Aug 17, 2009)

Everything Wagner, especially Tristan und Isolde. Wagner is the only opera composer I really enjoy..


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

haydnguy said:


> I haven't seen many operas (all on DVD) but my favorite thus far is Wozzek.


I agree, *Berg*'s _Wozzeck_ is my favourite opera as well. I like the drama, intensity & emotion. The orchestration is just brilliant.

If you like _Wozzeck_, check out *Schoenberg*'s _Moses und Aron_. It was left unfinished at his death, he only completed 2 of the 3 acts, but even in it's truncated form, it's an impessive work. Some say it's his greatest achievement. Judge for yourself...


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## JAKE WYB (May 28, 2009)

JANACEK - *KATA KABANOVA*

the dark and swelling turbulence throughout makes it to me the most emotionally gripping and visceral operatic work - the stormy ending and choral declamations to me send shivers down my spine like no other work


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## Il Seraglio (Sep 14, 2009)

I'm mostly only familiar with Mozart's operas (getting into Wagner at the moment).

My clear favourite is the Magic Flute, but I think his opera serias, such as Mithridates and and Clemency of Titus deserve more love. They are often written off, because of their libretti, but the music and arias are second to none.


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## Padawan (Aug 27, 2009)

My favorite is Carmen but that may change as I become familiar with more operas.


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## Mr. Bovary (Sep 18, 2009)

die zauberflote
_
"Der Hölle Rache"_ is one of best arias ever written, in my opinion.


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## haydnguy (Oct 13, 2008)

Andre said:


> I agree, *Berg*'s _Wozzeck_ is my favourite opera as well. I like the drama, intensity & emotion. The orchestration is just brilliant.
> 
> If you like _Wozzeck_, check out *Schoenberg*'s _Moses und Aron_. It was left unfinished at his death, he only completed 2 of the 3 acts, but even in it's truncated form, it's an impessive work. Some say it's his greatest achievement. Judge for yourself...


I'm definitely looking forward to Moses and Aron. That's a "must see" for me.

The next one I'm going to watch is Shostakovichs' Lady Macbeth of Mtsensk.


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## Bobotox (May 3, 2009)

Hard to choose one. So I'll list a couple.

Rubinstein- The Demon.
Massenet- Werther.
Verdi- Falstaff.
Verdi- La Traviata
Meyerbeer- Il crociato in Egitto
Meyerbeer- Margherita d'Anjou


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## Don Fatale (Aug 31, 2009)

Verdi's Otello is my favourite.

I guess I like opera at its most dramatic and passionate, and Otello fits the bill. To boot, it's fiercely articulate and sophisticated, a step up from Verdi's previous works. If only Wagner has lived long enough to hear it!

That aside, I love most opera from 1845 to 1900, Verdi, Wagner, Puccini, Massenet, Gounod, Biszet. Yes, I like it big, loud and tuneful!


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## jhooper3581 (Mar 15, 2009)

I like _The Marriage of Figaro_. It's certainly a brilliant piece of music.


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## audiophilia (Oct 17, 2009)

Only one. Hmmm..

Wozzeck


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## SalieriIsInnocent (Feb 28, 2008)

Well, I can't pick a favorite. Le Nozze Di Figaro is in my eyes, one of the greatest achievements of man. People always say that The Magic Flute was Mozarts best opera but I have always said that Mozart did the best operas when Lorenzo Da Ponte wrote the librettos. Le Nozze Di Figaro, Cosi Fan Tutte, and Don Giovanni were just flawless operas. 

I also think Rossini and Verdi follow Mozart as the greatest opera composers. Beethoven's one time dabble in opera showed me that he should have done more. 

I really haven't heard any modern operas. I guess my ears have been spoiled with the works of the composers above.


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## fpulsipher (Oct 14, 2009)

Rusalka by Dvorak Many people have heard 'Song to the Moon'. It is truly lovely. Anna Netrebko sings it beautifully.


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## World Violist (May 31, 2007)

Now I think it's Die Walkure...

I'm still very unknowing of opera as of yet, but I seriously intend to get more into it in the coming months.


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## Aramis (Mar 1, 2009)

Der Freischutz. It has both light, brilliant-style and dark, heavy moments. And it's a very green opera.


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

I love opera and am constantly getting obsessed with a particular opera/composer/period.
Right now it's Handel, particularly Giulio Cesare.

Past obsessions have included Verdi - Don Carlos, Otello, La Traviata; Puccini Tosca (I love all those different Scarpias on DVD!); Eugene Onegin, Philip Glass Akhnaten, Mozart Nozze di Figaro and Don Giovanni; and Bizet Carmen.

It's very much influenced by on productions I have seen and singers I'm interested in.


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## Saturnus (Nov 7, 2006)

*Bluebeard's Castle*, by Bartók. It's the 2nd opera I heard and it's still my favorite. Not only does this music have the cold, beautiful & natural Bartók charm, but it's also one of his earliest mature works, so it's heavily influenced by R. Strauss (whose music Bartók knew very well and promoted in Hungary), an influence very well suited for an opera.


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## Herr Direktor (Oct 18, 2009)

My absolute two favorites are Rigoletto (Joe Green) and Tosca (Puccini).

Coming in slightly behind those are La Boheme, Cavaleria Rusticana (sp), and Don Giovanni.

Of course, I am not an opera fan, per se, but I've played a few and some of the music is simply beautiful. The duet from the Pearl Fishers is a great example.

HD


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## Sieglinde (Oct 25, 2009)

Too many to choose one...

Maybe the most beloved to me is Billy Budd - it has all I love, dark story, even darker subtext, wonderful music, and... yeah, pretty singers in most cases. *blush* And Vere is simply the most lovable tenor ever. And I have to admit, Claggart defeated all my former favourites in the bad guy territory. And Billy is just adorable - especially when he's Gilfry or Keenlyside...

Also, Don Giovanni - perfection. Where are the Dons in our era? The world is full of Ottavios and Masettos. 

And the mightiest - the Ring. Chéreau made me love it first, and even till then, I've seen mostly modern Rings. I'm not a Regietheater fan in general, but Ring mostly works well this way - it brings out the humour better. All I saw from traditional was the MET Götter. I hope the Seattle Ring will be on dvd. 

And Tosca, being the No. 1 for 12 years, deserves to be mentioned. Don Giovanni slowly took its place, then Billy Budd came and it simply fell out of my top 3. But I still love it.


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## Leonora (Jun 5, 2010)

Verdi's Il Trovatore *__________________*


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## sospiro (Apr 3, 2010)

It's so difficult. Like I said in the 'favourite aria' thread I keep changing my mind.

I like to do my homework & my next treat is Rigoletto so I'm listening to the Pavarotti, Sutherland, Milnes CD over & over so at the moment Rigoletto is my favourite opera.

Birmingham Hippodrome


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## Herkku (Apr 18, 2010)

There are so many great operas, but if I should choose only one, it would be Verdi's La Traviata.


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## Grosse Fugue (Mar 3, 2010)

Le Nozze di Figaro
I love other operas but I never get tired of this one


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## Earthling (May 21, 2010)

Debussy's *Pelleas et Melisande*.

Technically not an opera, but: Stravinsky's *Oedipus Rex*.


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## superhorn (Mar 23, 2010)

I enjpy Mozart's operas greatly,but it's too bad you don't like Wagner and Romantic opera in general. "Vulgar" is the last thing I would call Wagner's orchestral sound and music in general. 
How about sumptuous, hugely colorful and filled with intricate counterpoint ?
Keep giving his music and other 19th century opera a chance.It might grow on you.
There's no use blaming Wagner's music for not being like Mozart's.Apples and oranges.
And by the way, Wagner admired Mozart's operas greatly,too.


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## OperaSaz (Feb 12, 2010)

Also a big fan of Le nozze di Figaro. A classic favourite! Anyone got any good recommendations of new productions, new innovations in opera?

Saz


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

OperaSaz said:


> Also a big fan of Le nozze di Figaro. A classic favourite! Anyone got any good recommendations of new productions, new innovations in opera?
> 
> Saz


Going to see one in Auckland, New Zealand, tonight. It might be a bit far to come here just for an opera though.....


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## sospiro (Apr 3, 2010)

mamascarlatti said:


> Going to see one in Auckland, New Zealand, tonight. It might be a bit far to come here just for an opera though.....


If I had a transporter like in Star Trek...

Have a great time.


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## Sebastien Melmoth (Apr 14, 2010)

Can anyone compare *Böhm's Tristan*
http://www.amazon.com/Tristan-Isold...=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1277045806&sr=1-1
with *Kleiber's Tristan*?
http://www.amazon.com/Trstan-Isolde...1?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1277045878&sr=1-1-spell


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## Mr.Vivaldi (May 14, 2010)

I have just started to like operas and I prefer operas from middle baroque to middle classical but I also enjoy the magic flute


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## Sebastien Melmoth (Apr 14, 2010)

My faves:
http://www.amazon.com/O-P-E-R-A-101-The-Short-Course/lm/RKFX4ZTNTV40B/ref=cm_lm_byauthor_title_full


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## operabuffer (Jul 22, 2010)

In something like this order:

Tosca
Madama Butterfly
Turandot
Pagliacci
La bohème
Die Meistersinger
Anything else by Wagner
Don Giovanni
Die Zauberflöte


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## wagner4evr (Jul 10, 2010)

Man there's so many. Fogetting a bunch but off the top of my head--

Tristan
Parsifal
Meistersinger
Figaro
Electra
Rosencav
BlueBeard's Castle
Tosca
Walkure


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## Figaro78 (Aug 20, 2010)

Lohengrin--the perfect amalgam of the Italianate and Wagnerian styles. The best of both worlds.
It's no accident that the great Verdi tenor Placido Domingo made such a fantastic Lohengrin on an 
apparently discontinued DVD from the Vienna State Opera. A stupendous performance with a magnificent cast. Get it if you can.


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## Aramis (Mar 1, 2009)

> Lohengrin--the perfect amalgam of the Italianate and Wagnerian styles.


What serious influences of italian style do you see in it?


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## Figaro78 (Aug 20, 2010)

Aramis said:


> What serious influences of italian style do you see in it?


What influence? For a few, the soaring lines of Elsa's introductory aria, the thrilling choral singing, the passionate exchanges between Elsa and Lohengrin as they declare their love for each other and the tender, melodic handling of the wedding music. The short interlude immediately following the duet between Elsa and Ortrud is pure voluptuousness in the best romantic tradition. That's what my ears tell me; others may hear differently.


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## Aramis (Mar 1, 2009)

Ortrud's last aria when Lohengrin is about to leave and she reveals what she did has some orchestral moments that could be written by <tfu!> Rossini, but that's all "italian" that I hear. As for exchanges, I find Lohengrin (and all Wagner operas) to be much less dynamic in this matter, characters rarely exchange short phrases, there are more monologues coming one after another than real conversations.


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## Last Stop for Me (Aug 18, 2010)

I would have thought that everyone would have said that "Turandot" was the greatest opera, by far! And that Pucchini is the greatest operatic composer ever, hands down!


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

*It's hard to talk about only one favorite opera*

But among my top ten I would be able to quote La Traviata, Tristan und Isolde, Les Troyens, Le Nozze di Figaro, Fidelio, La Damnation de Faust, Les Contes D'Hoffmann, Der Rosenkavalier, The Ring of the Nibelung, Eugene Onegin... and the more I think, the more I'd like to include others in these so-called top ten, so, I should better stop.


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## Last Stop for Me (Aug 18, 2010)

I have listened to them all except Eugene Onegin (a special progect), but not in depth. But tell me, Almaviva, do you not love the opera, Turandot? Or Carmen, or Gounoud's Faust? Or are they too "over-popularized". I would appreciate your opinion.
LS


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

Last Stop for Me said:


> I have listened to them all except Eugene Onegin (a special progect), but not in depth. But tell me, Almaviva, do you not love the opera, Turandot? Or Carmen, or Gounoud's Faust? Or are they too "over-popularized". I would appreciate your opinion.
> LS


Look, I don't particularly love Turandot. I like some of the highlights, but I think the general pace is boring and the orchestration is a bit too complex and unforgiving. Carmen was my favorite opera for a long time, but then it suffered (for me) from some over-exposure. I own several versions of Carmen, have seen others live in the opera house and in other ways (like Met in HD) and I always like it, but I sort of became a little jaded about it. Gounod's Faust is one of the biggest gaps in my knowledge of opera since it is one of the major works that I haven't seen/listened to yet, except in fragments which all seem exquisitely beautiful to me. I'll be taking care of this gap soon enough.

I don't care if an opera is "over-popularized" if it is beautiful. Operas are popular for a reason, usually because they are very good. My personal appreciation of operas has little to do with whether other people like them or not. But I do care if *I* become over-exposed to one of them. Sometimes one craves novelty and the less beaten path.


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

Almaviva said:


> Look, I don't particularly love Turandot. I like some of the highlights, but I think the general pace is boring and the orchestration is a bit too complex and unforgiving.


Also the central character is rather bloodthirsty and the hero is a self-centred creep who will cheerfully let some innocent girl die just so he can get into the princess's pants.


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

"Also the central character is rather bloodthirsty and the hero is a self-centred creep who will cheerfully let some innocent girl die just so he can get into the princess's pants"

Right! That too! LOL! Although sometimes creeps (like Don Giovanni) have been set to gorgeous music.


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## jhar26 (Jul 6, 2008)

I love Turandot, including the orchestration. The only thing I don't like about it is the ridiculous 'happy end' and what mamascarlatti has said in her previous post.


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

Well, at least Turandot is one of the few operas where the main female character doesn't get killed, raped, abducted, poisoned, stabbed, diseased, suicidal, mad, or at least seduced and dumped or cheated upon. The fate of women in opera is dire. La Fanciulla del West is another one where the female lead comes out unharmed, but these are exceptions. Opera is not a very welcoming medium for feminists, LOL.


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## jhar26 (Jul 6, 2008)

Almaviva said:


> Opera is not a very welcoming medium for feminists, LOL.


Except that it confirms the opinion of the most extreme ones that all men are creeps. :devil:


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## GodSaveTheQueen (Aug 30, 2010)

Favorite opera?

Well, Die Zauberflöte!


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

Almaviva said:


> Right! That too! LOL! Although sometimes creeps (like Don Giovanni) have been set to gorgeous music.


Yeah, but I fancy Don Giovanni. They'd have to add me to the catalogue song somewhere: "ed una en Nuova Zelanda".


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

mamascarlatti said:


> Yeah, but I fancy Don Giovanni. They'd have to add me to the catalogue song somewhere: "ed una en Nuova Zelanda".


:lol: Very funny!!! But see, he brags a lot, but he doesn't get into anyone's pants during the entire opera.


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

Almaviva said:


> But see, he brags a lot, but he doesn't get into anyone's pants during the entire opera.


You're right! What a disappointing last day on earth for him. But in the Keenlyside Don Giovanni, this is the last picture










rather better lit, which implies that things are going to be a whole lot of fun in Hell from now on!


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

Or not. Maybe the Devil will torture the Don by exposing him to enticing nude females but with a rule - can look but cannot touch.


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## Sonata (Aug 7, 2010)

Either La Traviata or Fidelio. Hard to tell since I heard both for the first time just this week. They are both wonderful. I love the story behind Fidelio. It's refreshing to have an opera with virtue and redemption!


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

*About Puccini*



Last Stop for Me said:


> I would have thought that everyone would have said that "Turandot" was the greatest opera, by far! And that Pucchini is the greatest operatic composer ever, hands down!


Giacomo Puccini is certainly *one* of the greats and has to his credit some truly sublime operas, however I wouldn't go as far as to say that he was *the* greatest, especially not *hands down.*

Others who in my opinion would have a better shot at this imaginary title (you can't really tell) would be Wagner, Verdi, Mozart, and grossly underrated Berlioz. The latter only composed four operas (if we count La Damnation de Faust as an opera) but in terms of percentage of big hits, all four, therefore 100%, are spectacular, and two of them - Les Troyens and La Damnation de Faust - therefore 50% - are among the very best operas ever composed. This is an impressive track record; one wonders what else he'd have accomplished if he were more into opera than into symphonic works.

Of course, to be *the* greatest opera composer, one also needs to be prolific so I'd be OK with anyone challenging my inclusion of Berlioz here - another example would be Beethoven and his *one* attempt at the genre - Fidelio - which is also spectacular, bringing up the same question: what have we missed because Beethoven didn't feel comfortable in the operatic medium? So Beethoven is also 100%, but the count is just one, so, nobody would say he was *the* greatest operatic composer. It is highly impressive, however, when we think that all great opera composers were allowed to write some duds at the beginning of their careers, while Beethoven tried only once, but his one opera is a towering accomplishment (although not without a few flaws).

Berlioz on the other hand at least tried four times, and the fact that there are no duds at all and all four are excellent, hints at the possibilities if he had composed more.

Puccini composed 12 operas. Many are incredibly good, but some are not. Le Villi and Edgar are not as remarkable. Manon Lescault in my opinion is weak, and not as good as Massenet's Manon (based on exactly the same plot). Il Tabarro and Suor Angelica are also overall less impressive than his biggest hits (especially the latter). Gianni Schicchi is nice but except for one extraordinary short aria, can't face competition with the other more complete works. La Fanciulla del West and La Rondine are very good but still, are kind of second tier. The ones that are truly great are La Bohème, Tosca, Madama Butterfly, and Turandot (although Turandot has its problems, but still).

Compare him to a Wagner, who got a much longer list of top hits. He got a similar-sized production - 13 operas - but his percentage of big hits is much higher than Puccini's - 10 of them are perennial and beloved, and some would say that Rienzi could also be there, leaving out only two relatively minor works (Die Feen and Das Lieberverbot).

The same concept of a longer list of big hits applies to Verdi (although he also has a longer list of duds). 27 operas depending on how you count (for example, whether you count Jerusalem separate from I Lombardi), and depending on preferences, at least 12 big hits, and a few others in close pursuit.

Mozart and his 22 operas is more of a mixed bag but his tops are *really* tops, 7 of them, with a handful of others also in hot pursuit as they're enjoying recent revival.

And then, you also have Rossini and Donizetti. These guys also have top hits that are as good as Puccini's, and are very prolific (although also mixed bags).

Donizetti composed some 75 operas - many of them utter failures, but a good handful extremely good. Rossini is a similar case with 39 operas.

Bellini's production is more at Puccini's size: he composed 11 operas, 3 or 4 of which are big hits. I wouldn't place him above Puccini, though, in spite of the fact that I consider only La Bohème to be at the same level of Bellini's best, Norma.

I'm forgetting another one who is vastly underrated - Handel and his 42 operas. He has numerous exquisite works, but people tend to overlook him given that baroque is farther removed from contemporary taste, and because they pay more attention to his oratorios. However anybody who gets into the mood and digs into his opera production is in for a lot of pleasure.

Finally, you have some composers running from the outside, like Richard Strauss. 18 operas (again, depending on how you count), with 7 big hits. I'd not place him above Puccini, though, because his big hits are excellent but slightly less good than Puccini's biggest hits.

Of course, everything I'm saying above when I compare the value of these works (and when I count something as a "big hit" and I don't count something else) is opinion rather than fact. There is some fact in my "big hit" category in terms of popularity, but popularity is no guarantee of quality. I guess I mean "big hit" more like "a hit on the bulls eye" in terms of my personal taste.

You can tell I'm not a big fan of Puccini's, and someone else who is may have a totally different opinion and argue that I'm completely off track in my evaluation, and I'd be fine with that. Still, while not being a big fan, I still recognize him among the top five.

But for me, the top ten list of greatest opera composers would be something like this:

1. Tie between Wagner and Verdi (I'll never be able to decide which one I like best)
2. See above
3. Mozart
4. Berlioz (confessedly, debatable when ranked this high, but a matter of personal taste)
5. Puccini
6. Handel
7. A tie between Rossini and Donizetti, slightly favoring the latter (Rossini can be very run-of-the-mill repetitive while Donizetti's melodies are hard to beat)
8. See above
9. Richard Strauss
10. Bellini

I think this is a very solid top 10 in terms of my personal taste. Right below this list of the greatest, I'd place as a second tier a number of other folks like Offenbach (who suffered from the fact that he composed mostly operettas 97 of them! - and only 2 real operas), Monteverdi (one of the pioneers, with some extremely beautiful works), Rameau, Gluck, Tchaikovsky, Britten, Gounod, Massenet, Weber, Lully, and those who have great operas to their credit but didn't repeat that incredible success too many times (or never repeated), like Beethoven, Bizet, Mascagni, Leoncavallo, Mussorgsky, Ponchielli, Janacek, Purcell, Bartok, Saint-Saenz, Humperdink, Smetana, Korngold, Rimsky-Korsakoff, Poulenc, Giordano... There are prolific but not as good guys like Meyerbeer who should be included because of a number of almost-hits. There are those who navigated the frontier between opera and musical like Bernstein and Gershwin who could be included depending on how one defines the genre "opera." Finally, one needs to consider more recent composers who have a more difficult, atonal/dissonant style that is less accessible and consequently less popular but have also composed formidable works, like Débussy, Stravinsky, and Berg.

I think I sort of covered most bases.:lol: This post may be considered over-inclusive (it's not too hard to just list everybody), but hey, I did separate a top ten.


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## jhar26 (Jul 6, 2008)

It doesn't necessarily mean that he's "the greatest", but I think that Puccini is the most popular, most often performed opera composer. Manon Lescaut is dramatically not perfect. Too much of the action happens between acts rather than during them, and the end of act three would have made for a great ending. There's no need for an act four (why and how did they end up in that desert anyway?). I nevertheless think that Manon Lescaut is a very good opera, not quite a La Boheme or Tosca, but close enough. La Fanciula del West is in my opinion Puccini's most underrated opera, probably because there are no big 'hit tunes' like in his others, but it's an excellent work. I've never heard La Villi or Edgar, but for me the weakest of his operas by far is La Rondine which is really a poor man's La Traviata, but even that one can be fun.


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

jhar26 said:


> It doesn't necessarily mean that he's "the greatest", but I think that Puccini is the most popular, most often performed opera composer. Manon Lescaut is dramatically not perfect. Too much of the action happens between acts rather than during them, and the end of act three would have made for a great ending. There's no need for an act four (why and how did they end up in that desert anyway?). I nevertheless think that Manon Lescaut is a very good opera, not quite a La Boheme or Tosca, but close enough. La Fanciula del West is in my opinion Puccini's most underrated opera, probably because there are no big 'hit tunes' like in his others, but it's an excellent work. I've never heard La Villi or Edgar, but for me the weakest of his operas by far is La Rondine which is really a poor man's La Traviata, but even that one can be fun.


We seem to have small differences of opinion based on personal taste. What you are saying is of course as valid for you as what I'm saying is valid for me, no right or wrong here.:tiphat:


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## jhar26 (Jul 6, 2008)

Almaviva said:


> We seem to have small differences of opinion based on personal taste. What you are saying is of course as valid for you as what I'm saying is valid for me, no right or wrong here.:tiphat:


I agree that it's all just a matter of opinion. Good thing too or we would have nothing to discuss.


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

jhar26 said:


> I agree that it's all just a matter of opinion. Good thing too or we would have nothing to discuss.


Oui, et vive la différence!


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## Sonata (Aug 7, 2010)

> Well, there you go. I didn't just like Suor Angelica ; it blew me away like a hurricane and left me wondering what hit me. So you never can tell, after all .... (which is just as well).


You aren't kidding!!! For me circumstances may play a role, as I have a four month old son. A brand new mother having this as her introduction to opera. Yeah, talk about indelible emotional impact. So much so that after re-listening, I'm going to have to shift Suor Angelica back up with Fidelio as favorite. La Traviata is still great, and has a bigger VOLUME of good music. But even still, it cannot touch me as deeply.


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

jhar26 said:


> but for me the weakest of his operas by far is La Rondine which is really a poor man's La Traviata, but even that one can be fun.


I think _La Rondine_ is not so bad, especially the third version of 1921 with the alternative ending, which had an incomplete score for the third act (only the piano and vocal score survived) but the orchestration was completed by Lorenzo Ferrero in 1994.

The first and second versions (1917, 1920) did not entirely please Puccini, who said that the libretto was literally "a load of rubbish" (his true words about it) because indeed Magda suddenly changing her mind and just renouncing marriage with Ruggero and leaving him for considering herself unworthy of "entering his house" in spite of his mother's permission and after all the talk of salvation through true love, and after having lived with him for three months - doesn't make *any* sense. Gee, he was a boy from the countryside, he wasn't into the Parisian high society, so, if he brought back to his hometown his new bride, nobody would be the wiser about her past. This is all that she wanted, so, how can we explain this sudden change of mind for no reason whatsoever? She just quits him like this, puff?? And goes back to her life of demi-mondaine, like Violetta? This ending is indeed closer to [/i]La Traviata[/i] (although Violetta did have a reason to leave), but makes much less sense.

This is why Puccini demanded a different ending and got it for the third version, in which Ruggero is the one who leaves Magda, once he finds out that she lied to him all along and was actually Rambaldo's mistress. It does away with Ruggero's sugary letter to his mother. It packs more pathos and retrospectively gives more logical sense to the entire story. And also, the third version is longer by 30 minutes and has some nice music in the third act, adding to Magda's nice aria in the first act, _Chi il bel sogno di Doretta_, and to the lively Lehár-like score of the second act. The third version is much less often performed (it only premiered in 1994) but is the superior version in my opinion. I've seen both endings, and I much prefer the alternative one (although the staging I saw didn't end with Magda drowning herself, which is the true ending of the third version, after Ruggero leaves her).

Another reason I like _La Rondine_ better than _Manon Lescault_ is all the praise to Paris in the first act, a city I love and in which I lived for five years - but this is just to say, like I have indicated before, that sometimes personal reasons and personal tastes explain individual preferences for one opera over another.

Another interesting twist in _La Rondine_ in terms of it being a poor man's _La Traviata_ (which is indeed vastly, vastly superior) is that as a matter of fact it describes better the _demi-monde_ than Verdi's masterpiece - it takes on the conflicts these demi-mondaines went through in a much more direct and explicit way, as compared to the three other operas that address the same environment, namely Massenet's _Manon_, Puccini's _Manon Lescault_, and Verdi's _La Traviata_. In _La Rondine_ you actually see these demi-mondaines talking about money and why they do what they do, etc. _La Rondine_ thus has some touches of verismo, and provided that you watch the third version, has a certain authenticity in terms of a credible story.

About what you said of _La Fanciulla del West_ I did say it is "good" and placed it together with _La Rondine_ (maybe my idiosyncratic choice) in a second tier of Puccini's operas, right after the four heavy weights. I probably should list Gianni Schicchi in that second tier as well; it is quite delightful, vibrant, with good pace, very funny, and _O mio babbino caro_ is a show-stopper. It's just that it is so short that it is hard to take it very seriously. With more development and some more arias it could occupy a decent place in the opera buffa genre.

So while I don't find [i[La Rondine[/i] spectacular or a masterpiece by any means (Puccini composed it for money and wasn't happy with the result), I don't think it is his weakest opera.

Talking about personal choices, maybe the main reason why I don't think much of _Manon Lescault_ is that I really love Massenet's _Manon_ which I actually got to know *before* _Manon Lescault_ so the former irreversibly spoiled the latter for me. I tend to think that _Manon Lescault_ is the poor man's _Manon_, LOL. But like I said, there is no right or wrong about it, people just like what they like and dislike what they dislike, and as long as someone doesn't say something absurd such as "_La Traviata_ is a load of rubbish" or "Meyerbeer is much better than Wagner," I respect people's opinions.


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## jhar26 (Jul 6, 2008)

Interesting post about "La Rondine", Almaviva. I've never heard the third version. And just for the record, when I say that I find "La Rondine" (the version I'm familiar with) to be the weakest of his operas, I mean that as compared to his other operas. I don't mean to say that it's no good at all. Let's just say that I think of La Rondine as a 7,5/10 opera. :lol: I still like it enough to have the new Gheorghiu/Alagna DVD on my wishlist.

Gianni Schicchi is my favorite of the Il Trittico operas. Unique among his creations because it shows of a different aspect of his talents, namely comedy. It's his (and here I am again with my Verdi comparison) Falstaff, and in this case not a poor man's in my opinion. :lol:


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## jurianbai (Nov 23, 2008)

I only know the "top ten" operas. The Mozart's , Puccini's, Bizet's Carmen that's all. In my mind the opera is always a comedy with the actor singing their line. So opera like Wagner's will sound funny since his opera tend to be ... serious. 

I like Mozart's the best, his music so naturally fit in opera!


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## HarpsichordConcerto (Jan 1, 2010)

Almaviva said:


> I'm forgetting another one who is vastly underrated - Handel and his 42 operas. He has numerous exquisite works, but people tend to overlook him given that baroque is farther removed from contemporary taste, and because they pay more attention to his oratorios. However anybody who gets into the mood and digs into his opera production is in for a lot of pleasure.


Nice to see you have rated Mr Handel as number 6 in your top ten list. Reading your other top ten favourites, I can see you're quite an opera connoisseur. The odd ball in your list is Mr Berlioz.

I regard Handel, Mozart, Wagner and Verdi and the top tier opera composers who wrote music offering strong characterisation. Puccini is not far behind but I hesitate a little to include him in the top tier list. Although I include Wagner and Verdi as the top tier, their operas do not relate to me as well as do Handel's and Mozart's, only because of my preference for earlier period music, but I do recognise Wagner's and Verdi's genius in strong characterisation of musical drama. This leads me to my favourite two: Handel and Mozart. Considering Handel was the first, he was indeed special, and I would say the only Baroque opera composer truely interested in writing musical characterisation for the unfolding drama, and not for the ego of the human voice on stage. Mozart was basically a natural, nothing more to be said.

I do also like Haydn's operas, which tend to be quite formal concert pieces, often tending to be instrumental in idiom rather than truely vocal. But utterly charming and civilised, like his last two great oratorios.

By the way, several of Handel's English oratorios were really English operas; the greatest ever written for the language.


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

HarpsichordConcerto said:


> Nice to see you have rated Mr Handel as number 6 in your top ten list. Reading your other top ten favourites, I can see you're quite an opera connoisseur. The odd ball in your list is Mr Berlioz.


Yes, we seem to share lots of respect and appreciation for Handel. Like I said, he is often overlooked by opera lovers, but should be included among the greatest.

About Berlioz, I consider _Les Troyens_ one of the greatest operas ever composed, for various reasons (I think I'll post a musical/theatrical review of it later when I have some time to think carefully about it). I consider _La Damnation de Faust_ to be just perfect, with extraordinary tone painting, dramatic possibilities, and depth. His other two works are pretty good as well, _Beatrice et Benedict_ and _Benvenuto Cellini_. So what impresses me in Berlioz is that he had no duds, he only composed four, but all four are rather high level (and two of the four are truly outstanding), while even Wagner, Verdi, and Mozart had some duds. So Berlioz is not usually ranked among the greatest because he wasn't as much into the genre as those three, but one wonders what other wonders he would have composed if he hadn't stopped at four. This is why I still rank him among the greatest, in spite of his small production.


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## Aramis (Mar 1, 2009)

> So what impresses me in Berlioz is that he had no duds, he only composed four, but all four are rather high level (and two of the four are truly outstanding), while even Wagner, Verdi, and Mozart had some duds.


That's because Berlioz was clever enough to wait until he gets mature and then write first opera. Wagner wrote his "duds" while being at age in which Berlioz wrote his shorter, instrumental duds.


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

Aramis said:


> That's because Berlioz was clever enough to wait until he gets mature and then write first opera. Wagner wrote his "duds" while being at age in which Berlioz wrote his shorter, instrumental duds.


Good point, but still, Berlioz's result is pretty impressive.

See, Beethoven was fully mature when he composed Fidelio, and he encountered lots of difficulties (and of course, talented as he was, he got over the difficulties and still composed a masterpiece, in spite of some problems in Fidelio that show that Beethoven wasn't really well prepared to tackle the task - just, the man was a genius, so, even ill prepared, he still wrote a masterpiece). The operatic medium is very specific, it isn't the same thing as a symphony, and not even an oratorio or a song cycle that share the vocal line with it. To compose a successful opera, one needs to really master the genre. Better proof, there are about 22,000 operas and only some 150 are really tops, and only some 50 are true masterpieces.

So, for Berlioz to produce not one but two masterpieces out of four attempts, not to forget that the other two are no light weights either, is pretty impressive in my opinion. What I'm saying is, he wasn't a specialist like Wagner, Verdi, Puccini, Rossini, etc. Then he tried, and got a phenomenal high level of quality in a few attempts, and consistently so. One wonders what he'd have done if he were a committed opera composer like these other guys.


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## HarpsichordConcerto (Jan 1, 2010)

Almaviva said:


> Yes, we seem to share lots of respect and appreciation for Handel. Like I said, he is often overlooked by opera lovers, but should be included among the greatest.
> 
> About Berlioz, I consider _Les Troyens_ one of the greatest operas ever composed, for various reasons (I think I'll post a musical/theatrical review of it later when I have some time to think carefully about it). I consider _La Damnation de Faust_ to be just perfect, with extraordinary tone painting, dramatic possibilities, and depth. His other two works are pretty good as well, _Beatrice et Benedict_ and _Benvenuto Cellini_. So what impresses me in Berlioz is that he had no duds, he only composed four, but all four are rather high level (and two of the four are truly outstanding), while even Wagner, Verdi, and Mozart had some duds. So Berlioz is not usually ranked among the greatest because he wasn't as much into the genre as those three, but one wonders what other wonders he would have composed if he hadn't stopped at four. This is why I still rank him among the greatest, in spite of his small production.


I have my eye on (a supposedly excellent performance of) _Les Troyens_ played by one of my favourite bands and conductors. _Orchestre Révolutionnaire et Romantique_, Monteverdi Choir and various soloist conducted by Sir John Eliot Gardiner, on the Opus Arte label (DVD/Blue Ray). Yes, it will be my next evil collective acquistion for sure.


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

HarpsichordConcerto said:


> I have my eye on (a supposedly excellent performance of) _Les Troyens_ played by one of my favourite bands and conductors. _Orchestre Révolutionnaire et Romantique_, Monteverdi Choir and various soloist conducted by Sir John Eliot Gardiner, on the Opus Arte label (DVD/Blue Ray). Yes, it will be my next evil collective acquistion for sure.


Like I said in another thread, this is one of the top 5 opera videos I've ever seen in my life (I have the blu-ray version). Just try not to mind the machine guns and the weird costumes, but everything else is first rate, a *very* accomplished performance. Don't miss the documentary with Sir John Eliot Gardiner talking about the opera.


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## jhar26 (Jul 6, 2008)

Almaviva said:


> But for me, the top ten list of greatest opera composers would be something like this:
> 
> 1. Tie between Wagner and Verdi (I'll never be able to decide which one I like best)
> 2. See above
> ...


Here's mine, for today that is.:lol: Ask me tommorow and it might be slightly different. It's NOT a top 10 of whom I think are 'the greatest.' If that were the case Wagner would share the number one spot with Mozart and Monteverdi would definitely be included. Instead it's a top 10 of those I enjoy and listen to the most and the fact that I'm just more familiar with the works of some composers than with those of others also plays a huge role.

Anyway, for what it's worth....

-1 Mozart
-2 Strauss
-3 Puccini
-4 Verdi
-5 Wagner
-6 Handel
-7 Bellini
-8 Rossini
-9 Prokofiev
10 Rameau

There are probably about half a dozen or more composers who I like as much as numbers 7-10 and who depending on when you ask might take their place in my top 10.


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

jhar26 said:


> -1 Mozart
> -2 Strauss
> -3 Puccini
> -4 Verdi
> ...


This list is closer to mine than Almaviva's - but I'd probably replace Bellini with Donizetti and Monteverdi has to go in somewhere. I just adore his music and a fantasy of mine is that someone will one day discover manuscripts of all his lost operas.

I'm glad you put Rameau in - everything I've seen or heard of his I've loved.


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## jhar26 (Jul 6, 2008)

mamascarlatti said:


> This list is closer to mine than Almaviva's - but I'd probably replace Bellini with Donizetti and Monteverdi has to go in somewhere. I just adore his music and a fantasy of mine is that someone will one day discover manuscripts of all his lost operas.
> 
> I'm glad you put Rameau in - everything I've seen or heard of his I've loved.


Donizetti and Monteverdi are two of those "who might get in depending on which day you ask."


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

jhar26 said:


> Here's mine, for today that is.:lol: Ask me tommorow and it might be slightly different. It's NOT a top 10 of whom I think are 'the greatest.' If that were the case Wagner would share the number one spot with Mozart and Monteverdi would definitely be included. Instead it's a top 10 of those I enjoy and listen to the most and the fact that I'm just more familiar with the works of some composers than with those of others also plays a huge role.
> 
> Anyway, for what it's worth....
> 
> ...


I like what you said about "ask me tomorrow and it will be different." I feel the same way. While the top ten list I have posted seems pretty solid to me in terms of representing my current thoughts (and while it won't change too fast - not that I'm taking your "tomorrow" literally), I also go through phases of falling in love with a composer, so my list keeps changing as well. I've been liking Rameau a lot, latelly, so, he may find his way into my top ten eventually, although currently it would be hard for me to bump someone out.

When we think about top ten operas or top ten arias then it becomes even more variable - and then, yes, it could change daily for me, in which case the "tomorrow" would be quite literal especially in the case of arias.

Today my favorite opera of them all is _Les Troyens._ _La Traviata _comes in and out of my number one spot periodically. Wagner always manages to get there too, at least temporarily (_Tristan und Isolde_ had a stretch there, recently _Lohengrin _was there until it was dislodged by _Les Troyens... _both _Die Walküre_ and _Götterdämmerung_ had their turn as well (but not _Das Rheingold_ or _Sigfried_), and so on.


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## World Violist (May 31, 2007)

Not really any Italians in my list... I rather doubt there ever will be since I still listen to opera for the music, not the high notes. So my top five opera composers in no particular order...

Britten (Curlew River, Midsummer Night's Dream, Turn of the Screw, Death in Venice)
Enescu (his only opera and his greatest masterpiece, Oedipe)
Norgard (Gilgamesh, Siddharta, Nuit des Hommes, The Divine Circus)

...

Turns out I've only got three. No Germans either... wow.


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## Elgarian (Jul 30, 2008)

Here today, right now, this minute:

*Division 1: *
Wagner

*Division 2:*
Handel, Mozart, Puccini, Massenet

*Division 3:*
Bellini, Rameau, Lully ....

But then, as I grind to a halt, I realise it becomes nonsense - because Strauss isn't in there is he? But then, really only_ Rosenkavalier_ matters to me. But then, that matters _a great deal_. Even so, how do I compare the one life-changing Strauss opera with the dozens by Handel, and the several by Mozart and Massenet?

Oh.

Oh.


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## jhar26 (Jul 6, 2008)

Elgarian said:


> But then, as I grind to a halt, I realise it becomes nonsense - because Strauss isn't in there is he? But then, really only_ Rosenkavalier_ matters to me.


Too much blood in Salome and Elektra for you, Alan? :lol:


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## Elgarian (Jul 30, 2008)

jhar26 said:


> Too much blood in Salome and Elektra for you, Alan? :lol:


Heck, I even find the witch too scary in _Hansel & Gretel_, Gaston.


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

Elgarian said:


> Here today, right now, this minute:
> 
> *Division 1: *
> Wagner
> ...


Yep! That's exactly why my first post in this thread had this line: "Others who in my opinion would have a better shot *at this imaginary title (you can't really tell)* would be... etc."

There is no way to actually pick "the best" one in a factual meaningful way, because their styles vary, their periods vary, the size of their production varies, and within the production of the same composer there is also wild variation with moments of absolute genius side by side with rather mondaine moments.

And then, there's also what we love (e.g., you love Baroque), and even more complicated, what we love *at this time* which changes as well.

Opera is just too vast a universe to allow for this kind of thing except as a matter of temporary opinion.

By the way, I share your profound admiration for _Der Rosenkavalier._ It is hard to beat in terms of music for sopranos. It's a soprano feast, with three of them interacting in solos, duos, trios... what a pleasure! The Presentation of the Rose and final trio are celestial.


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## Elgarian (Jul 30, 2008)

Almaviva said:


> The Presentation of the Rose and final trio are celestial.


No exaggeration there. Life-changing, I called it. First time I heard the Presentation of the Rose, it was (I say this in all seriousness) a revelation. I wasn't thinking in words at the time, but if I had, it would have been something like: "So, then, music can offer _this extreme degree_ of transcendent experience...?" In an important way, I wasn't the same person afterwards.


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

Elgarian said:


> No exaggeration there. Life-changing, I called it. First time I heard the Presentation of the Rose, it was (I say this in all seriousness) a revelation. I wasn't thinking in words at the time, but if I had, it would have been something like: "So, then, music can offer _this extreme degree_ of transcendent experience...?" In an important way, I wasn't the same person afterwards.


Yep, and it's not just the vocal music, the orchestration with those descending icicles-like figures is thrilling. And how many emotions are packed in a few minutes of music about the interaction between two young persons... I love the way Joyce DiDonato talks about it in this video clip:


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