# Do you like CPE Bach?



## clavichorder (May 2, 2011)

What do you think of Bach's most acclaimed son? When I'm in CPE mode, he really hits the spot, I zone into his music with a very raw enjoyment. Other times, I find him abrupt yet predictable. I think its a shame that his keyboard works are so under recorded and that people don't think of playing him on the modern piano so often. 
With that, I submit one of his many rondos in existence of which there are few recordings of, for your listening pleasures


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## Guest (Dec 17, 2011)

Yes, I like CPE.


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## HarpsichordConcerto (Jan 1, 2010)

CPE Bach wrote good music. This is one of his cello concertos. It is very good art music. It does not pervert the senses. 

Les Talens Lyriques (on period instruments)


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## Dodecaplex (Oct 14, 2011)

From what I've heard, to be honest, I've found his music to be generic and redundant. And no offense, but if this rondo was interesting enough that you found it worth mentioning in the OP, then I guess there's not much to his music after all.

I still stand by what I said with my previous account:


HerlockSholmes said:


> It's like if my dad was the CEO of Apple and I grew up to become the manager of the local McDonald's.


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## clavichorder (May 2, 2011)

@ Harpsichord Concerto, that's a lovely piece. There is plenty of CPE to go around, I see. It envelops one unlike the recording of the rondo I submitted, which I find a bit more cerebral. Sometimes, the way CPE Bach is played makes his music, I think, but some of his pieces speak through without depending on a snazzy performance.


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## clavichorder (May 2, 2011)

Dodecaplex said:


> And no offense, but if this rondo was interesting enough that you found it worth mentioning in the OP, then I guess there's not much to his music after all.


The Rondo, actually isn't my favorite, see Harpsichord concertos video.


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

His concertos, particularly for flute and for organ, are quite worthwhile.


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## clavichorder (May 2, 2011)

I find this to be one of his better concertos


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## Dodecaplex (Oct 14, 2011)

clavichorder said:


> The Rondo, actually isn't my favorite, see Harpsichord concertos video.


Nice. Not bad, I guess.

. . . Any good fugues?


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## science (Oct 14, 2010)

I like this.


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## clavichorder (May 2, 2011)

Dodecaplex said:


> . . . Any good fugues?


He had his phase where daddy was looking over his shoulder, so sure, as a student, he wrote some fugues. I don't think he ever went back to write any more though.


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## clavichorder (May 2, 2011)

science said:


> I like this.


Bach when I listened to that, I wasn't so fond of it. Perhaps I should give it another try.


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## Dodecaplex (Oct 14, 2011)

clavichorder said:


> He had his phase where daddy was looking over his shoulder, so sure, as a student, he wrote some fugues. I don't think he ever went back to write any more though.


Ah, no passion for fugues . . . bummer . . .

Well, then, have a nice weekend, folks!


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## hocket (Feb 21, 2010)

Dodecaplex said:


> Ah, no passion for fugues . . . bummer . . .
> 
> Well, then, have a nice weekend, folks!


So you're saying that you don't like CPE because he didn't write baroque music? I guess that's a bit like the way that people didn't like JS's music in his own day or that of his sons because he didn't write in a Galant or Classical style. The world keeps on turning.

Anyway, I particularly like these:


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## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

I listen to his 'Hamburgs' occasionally but I can't really say that they have prompted me to investigate his works any further.


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## kv466 (May 18, 2011)

Not as much as his daddy but I do very much; diggin out a disc to enjoy now.


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## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

science said:


> I like this.


Pletnev is _capable_ of fine interpretations - and makes them here. You never know what mood/mode he was in until you hear the recording.


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## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

Dodecaplex said:


> From what I've heard, to be honest, I've found his music to be generic and redundant. And no offense, but if this rondo was interesting enough that you found it worth mentioning in the OP, then I guess there's not much to his music after all.
> 
> I still stand by what I said with my previous account:


I wouldn't call his music 'generic', mostly because his music is to a great extent the _genesis_ of the style. What is redundant are the trademarks of that style, not the material itself. The modern ear picks up those trademarks and gives them more prominence than they actually have in the music. The situation is almost exactly analogous to seeing for the first time members of another race; we see the differences rather than the similarities.

Both 'notices' must be caused by hardwired, instinctual processes. in the 'survival game', the differences are of more _immediate_ importance than the similarities.

Familiarity allows us to put the differences into a more useful perspective, and so get into the music, and on with our lives.

 [thus ends pompous lecture #342]


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## Ravellian (Aug 17, 2009)

I've heard some works by him that are very interesting, particularly some symphonies and keyboard fantasies. He seems to have had a quirky compositional style, one that "goes against the grain," so to speak.

For example, this piece:





And this piece:





It's one of the things on my "to do list" to investigate more about this composer.


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## clavichorder (May 2, 2011)

@ Ravelian, I love that symphony you linked, its one of my favorite pieces of the classical era actually.


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## clavichorder (May 2, 2011)

What I'm mostly curious about, is this: why have I enjoyed all of his Berlin and String Symphonies, some of his rondos and many of his sonatas, and yet, plenty of his concertos aren't up to this level, though he wrote so damned many of them? I want to filter through the concertos to find ones that are as impressive as his later symphonies and rondos and sonatas.

Also, thanks to Hilltroll for attempting at the abstraction of explaining that CPE is not actually generic objectively.


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## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

clavichorder said:


> Also, thanks to Hilltroll for attempting at the abstraction of explaining that CPE is not actually generic objectively.


What do you mean "attempting"? My post is pretty much A voice From Out Of The Flames.


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## clavichorder (May 2, 2011)

Hilltroll72 said:


> What do you mean "attempting"? My post is pretty much A voice From Out Of The Flames.


It was awesome sure, but it would have to be even more to convince Dodecaplex, don't you think? That's why I didn't attempt.


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## Vaneyes (May 11, 2010)

I wish Pletnev had followed up with the Concertos for Keyboard. The works substantial orchestration deserves modern piano. Anything else is projected as whisper.


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## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

clavichorder said:


> It was awesome sure, but it would have to be even more to convince Dodecaplex, don't you think? That's why I didn't attempt.


True. _Dode_ is nearly as arrogant as I am.


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## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

Vaneyes said:


> I wish Pletnev had followed up with the Concertos for Keyboard. The works substantial orchestration deserves modern piano. Anything else is projected as whisper.


That is a common problem, but I'm not sure it _is_ a problem. The Kipnis recording of Mozart's Kv.271 exhibits a 'recessed' harpsichord, but after I listened a couple times I enjoyed the effect; you just have to pay attention.


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## Delicious Manager (Jul 16, 2008)

Dodecaplex said:


> From what I've heard, to be honest, I've found his music to be generic and redundant. And no offense, but if this rondo was interesting enough that you found it worth mentioning in the OP, then I guess there's not much to his music after all.


CPE Bach is very underrated, especially in his importance of the development of the Classical style. A composer who contributes so much to change and development in music can never be 'redundant'.


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## Vaneyes (May 11, 2010)

Hilltroll72 said:


> That is a common problem, but I'm not sure it _is_ a problem. The Kipnis recording of Mozart's Kv.271 exhibits a 'recessed' harpsichord, but after I listened a couple times I enjoyed the effect; you just have to pay attention.


Re straining ears to hear, I don't enjoy doing that for an extended period. It's tedious and irritating.


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## brianwalker (Dec 9, 2011)

I'm having difficult adjusting to the timbre and the general ambiance of the harpsichord.






From the comment section: "awesome﻿ piece !!! but is it the recording or are the strings out of tune ???"

These period instruments are a big barrier for me.


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## Lukecash12 (Sep 21, 2009)

Yes. .


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## lukecubed (Nov 27, 2011)

I've only just gotten into him and don't know much, but I dig it. Usually not much for the late rococo/early "classical" stuff (and I, too, am generally not big on harpsichord), but his music has a darkness and restless energy to it that surprised me:


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

Answer is, yes I do like his music, an interesting contrast to that of his father's, I think it comes across as kinder of lighter to me.

I've recently gotten his sonata for solo harp on disc, it was okay but an early one for that instrument, so he's still writing for it as if it where a keyboard instrument. So it isn't really suited to the qualities of the harp. But okay music but not my favourite on that disc, the ones by Dussek, Hindemith and Tailleferre I like better on it, and there's also one by Casella which I'm not sure about a bit.

I also have some other things by him, a couple of his harpsichord concertos which I remember as good and enjoyable.

On portraits of him, he comes across to me as having no neck, almost freakish, but maybe that's an exaggeration.

Basically he's a good composer to listen to, imo...


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## Ralfy (Jul 19, 2010)

Yes, very nice, but I only have his symphonies and some quartets.


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## rojo (May 26, 2006)

Yep.

Here is the good old classic of piano repertoire, _Solfeggietto_ (sometimes called _Solfeggio_)






Here's an interesting 'souped up' version called _Solfeggietto à cinq_ for Player Piano by Marc-André Hamelin


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## presto (Jun 17, 2011)

I love both JC Bach and CPE Bach, I can never quite work out which one I like most.
I’m Probably charmed by JC Bach with his endless flow of melody, beautiful turns of phrase and good nature.
CPE Bach is quirky, unpredictable and entertains me with his more original style. 
Some of his slow movements can be sad and very moving too.


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## humanbean (Mar 5, 2011)

clavichorder said:


> @ Ravelian, I love that symphony you linked, its one of my favorite pieces of the classical era actually.


This symphony was actually one of the first CPE symphonies I'd heard and it's still one of my favorites to this day. I'd like to hear a large modern orchestra play this, similar to the way we're used to hearing big names perform Haydn's London symphonies.

I've recently started listening to a lot of CPE lately, and I highly recommend this performance of the Wq. 182 symphonies conducted by Trevor Pinnock:

http://www.amazon.com/C-P-E-Bach-Symphonies/dp/B0002JZ2BG


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## neoshredder (Nov 7, 2011)

Yeah he has his own style. Not that similar to Mozart imo. Quite different. Definitely worth checking out. I got some of his symphonies as well. The closest I can think of with comparisons is Telemann and Boccherini. Of course he sounds a little like JS Bach as well.


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## clavichorder (May 2, 2011)

How timely that this thread has been revived! CPE Bach is my favorite composer at the moment. I'm learned 3 of his keyboard sonatas at the moment, the 4th Prussian Sonata and the 1st and 2nd varied reprise sonatas. All excellent pieces. He's very fun to play.

All the symphonies are really great.


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

Oooh Yay! CPE Bach was the greatest composer of the Classical period!


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## neoshredder (Nov 7, 2011)

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> Oooh Yay! CPE Bach was the greatest composer of the Classical period!


Not if Haydn has something to say about that.


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## clavichorder (May 2, 2011)

neoshredder said:


> Not if Haydn has something to say about that.


He learned a lot from CPE Bach. Bought a theory book by him(no joke), and taught himself the fundamentals of then contemporary composition.

Mozart though more subtle than CPE Bach by a long shot, is not as consistently ballsy! Beethoven might have been CPE's greatest disciple.


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

neoshredder said:


> Not if Haydn has something to say about that.


CPE does better sturm und drang than Haydn. But not by much.


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## neoshredder (Nov 7, 2011)

So I guess the order is...
1. CPE Bach
2. Haydn
3. Beethoven
4. Mozart. Don't forget Boccherini. He's really good as well.


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

neoshredder said:


> So I guess the order is...
> 1. CPE Bach
> 2. Haydn
> 3. Beethoven
> 4. Mozart. Don't forget Boccherini. He's really good as well.


That seems about right. But what about Salieri?


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## Lukecash12 (Sep 21, 2009)

presto said:


> I love both JC Bach and CPE Bach, I can never quite work out which one I like most.
> I'm Probably charmed by JC Bach with his endless flow of melody, beautiful turns of phrase and good nature.
> CPE Bach is quirky, unpredictable and entertains me with his more original style.
> Some of his slow movements can be sad and very moving too.


For their shorter works it can be a bit of a toss up for me, because I enjoy Rococo and Baroque thinking, and I think they were fine exemplars of the two, but it seems obvious to me that the father was a more masterful orchestrator. Just compare their sacred music.


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## Lukecash12 (Sep 21, 2009)

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> CPE does better sturm und drang than Haydn. But not by much.


Hmmm... Haydn wasn't really as much a part of that tradition. That tradition is more German and late Baroque, so for CPE to have done _sturm und drang_ "better" doesn't make for much of a fair comparison.


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

Lukecash12 said:


> Hmmm... Haydn wasn't really as much a part of that tradition. That tradition is more German and late Baroque, so for CPE to have done _sturm und drang_ "better" doesn't make for much of a fair comparison.


Late Baroque? I thought it was mainly in the Classical era around the '60s and '70s that the sturm und drang became popular.


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## clavichorder (May 2, 2011)

CPE's the reason I'm clavichorder. Ironically, I would prefer to play him on a modern piano these days, unless I had an awesome toned portable clavichord with adequate range for the CPE sonatas.


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## clavichorder (May 2, 2011)

Many clavichord players play him way too slow, and usually Spanyi is one of those, but this is good


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## clavichorder (May 2, 2011)

But here, my talented piano teacher's performance of this rondo is more directly the reason why I love CPE Bach so much, his clavichord has adequate range and is small enough for my purposes, except the low end could go down to a G instead of just a C and the tone could be flutier and more resonant. Now that would be a perfect clavichord. This is a great rondo, and played at good tempo with good punch.


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

Clavichorder: you have just shown me my new favourite instrument. Thank you.


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## clavichorder (May 2, 2011)

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> Clavichorder: you have just shown me my new favourite instrument. Thank you.


Soon you are going to get wrapped up in building them! Then you are going to have to write 500+keyboard works for them.


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

clavichorder said:


> Soon you are going to get wrapped up in building them! Then you are going to have to write 500+keyboard works for them.


How about just the one work for 500 clavichords?


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## clavichorder (May 2, 2011)

Coag, a copy of this very expensive yet definitive book may be in order for you:http://www.google.com/products/cata...=1&ie=UTF-8&tbm=shop&cid=12411214383037866754

One of my oddest dreams has been to be a clavichord busker. The trick is finding a clavichord loud enough and a place quiet enough to do it.


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## clavichorder (May 2, 2011)

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> How about just the one work for 500 clavichords?


You better start building them!


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## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

Rats. In that recording, the microphone is too distant, I think. Maybe part of a nefarious plan to hide the mechanism? If you hide the mechanism, the strings sound over-damped.

Sorry _clavi_, I can't always be all sweetness and light.


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## Lukecash12 (Sep 21, 2009)

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> Late Baroque? I thought it was mainly in the Classical era around the '60s and '70s that the sturm und drang became popular.


These transitional periods, are where things get tricky, because you can define it according to the style of the individual composer, the progress of the tradition that he/she was a part of, or just a period in time. Because of the forms he wrote with, and that he was a part of the sturm und drang tradition, makes me define CPE Bach as a Late Baroque composer. He may have focused less on modulation, strict forms of counterpoint, etc., but he was very much of a Baroque composer. Much more so than Haydn. Take this simple litmus, for example: CPE Bach, compared to Haydn, was more modal, and Haydn was more tonal.

In summation: Classical times? Certainly. Classical music? I wouldn't say so.


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## clavichorder (May 2, 2011)

I disagree. I think of CPE along with Johann Stamitz, Sammartini, Abel, and Richter as early classical era composer. WF Bach is one of the most "borderline" composers of that era for me, and Richter and Sammartini as well as early CPE have borderline elements as well. Haydn, Dittersdorf, Mozart, Clementi, these are a sort of middle late classicism at their peak. 

What does your last line mean Lukecash?


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## clavichorder (May 2, 2011)

Also, I was under the impression that modal was more of a rennaissance thing. Only the early baroque composers like Schutz were perhaps finally breaking from modality, and early Purcell has modal elements. But late Purcell, Buxthude, Corelli, and beyond, these guys are tonal aren't they?


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

I'm with Clavi on this one. I can't seem to recognise CPE Bach as a Baroque composer.


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## Lukecash12 (Sep 21, 2009)

clavichorder said:


> But here, my talented piano teacher's performance of this rondo is more directly the reason why I love CPE Bach so much, his clavichord has adequate range and is small enough for my purposes, except the low end could go down to a G instead of just a C and the tone could be flutier and more resonant. Now that would be a perfect clavichord. This is a great rondo, and played at good tempo with good punch.


Mr. Whitney is your teacher? Lucky you.


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## clavichorder (May 2, 2011)

Lukecash12 said:


> Mr. Whitney is your teacher? Lucky you.


You know him? Its been 2 and a half years. I'm his most consistently present student. I discovered him on youtube and was lucky enough that he lives in my city.


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## Lukecash12 (Sep 21, 2009)

clavichorder said:


> I disagree. I think of CPE along with Johann Stamitz, Sammartini, Abel, and Richter as early classical era composer. WF Bach is one of the most "borderline" composers of that era for me, and Richter and Sammartini as well as early CPE have borderline elements as well. Haydn, Dittersdorf, Mozart, Clementi, these are a sort of middle late classicism at their peak.
> 
> What does your last line mean Lukecash?


My last line means that in the early part of the classical era, there were several composers who wrote in the Baroque style. Considering, for example, that CPE Bach still used some strict counterpoint and subject - counter-subject series, and that he wrote a good deal of pieces in a Baroque dance form, it can be appropriate to label him as Late Baroque.

Now, with that little issue of classification aside, I would like to ask you guys what you think of his symphonies. Check them out:

http://imslp.org/wiki/Symphony_in_D_major,_Wq.176_(H.651)_(Bach,_Carl_Ph ilipp_Emanuel)
http://imslp.org/wiki/Symphony_in_D_major,_Wq.183/1_(H.663)_(Bach,_Carl_Philipp_Emanuel)
http://imslp.org/wiki/Symphony_in_E_minor,_Wq.177_(H.652)_(Bach,_Carl_Ph ilipp_Emanuel)
http://imslp.org/wiki/Symphony_in_E-flat_major,_Wq.183/2_(H.664)_(Bach,_Carl_Philipp_Emanuel)
http://imslp.org/wiki/Symphony_in_F_major,_Wq.183/3_(H.665)_(Bach,_Carl_Philipp_Emanuel)
http://imslp.org/wiki/6_Symphonies,_Wq.182_(Bach,_Carl_Philipp_Emanuel)


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## Lukecash12 (Sep 21, 2009)

clavichorder said:


> You know him? Its been 2 and a half years. I'm his most consistently present student. I discovered him on youtube and was lucky enough that he lives in my city.


Him and I have chatted a few times over the years. I share his love of the Baroque, and used to talk with him about the period instruments he uses.


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## clavichorder (May 2, 2011)

@ Lukecash, I think I know all his symphonies, if the 6 Berlin symphonies, the 6 String Symphonies and the 4 later symphonies are the only ones recorded. I haven't heard of any others. I think his symphonies are some of his best work. The E major one is very good, but I pretty much like them all.


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## clavichorder (May 2, 2011)

Lukecash12 said:


> Him and I have chatted a few times over the years. I share his love of the Baroque, and used to talk with him about the period instruments he uses.


That's cool. If you live on the west coast you should come and visit sometime.


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## Lukecash12 (Sep 21, 2009)

clavichorder said:


> Also, I was under the impression that modal was more of a rennaissance thing. Only the early baroque composers like Schutz were perhaps finally breaking from modality, and early Purcell has modal elements. But late Purcell, Buxthude, Corelli, and beyond, these guys are tonal aren't they?


I wasn't using the term as if it was fully descriptive. Like so much else in music theory, you use terms because they are useful. When you're in a grey area, you simply compare the usefulness of different terms. Because it is _still_ useful to think of sturm und drang composers in terms of modality, to some extent, I consider them Late Baroque. Where I draw the line, is where modality seems to be completely gone.


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## clavichorder (May 2, 2011)

One of the only CPE videos online


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## clavichorder (May 2, 2011)

@Lukecash, I wonder if you'll appreciate this performance of CPE Bach's string symphonies(ALL OF THEM) on modern instruments.


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## Vaneyes (May 11, 2010)

I think the answer here, is that for whatever reasons, CPE revisited some elements of Italian Baroque style in WQ. 182. 

But it's easy to hear in WQ. 178 and WQ. 183 (before and after examples), that Late Baroque was not his true musical identity.

So, Classical distinction for CPE is correct.


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## Lukecash12 (Sep 21, 2009)

Vaneyes said:


> I think the answer here, is that for whatever reasons, CPE revisited some elements of Italian Baroque style in WQ. 182.
> 
> But it's easy to hear in WQ. 178 and WQ. 183 (before and after examples), that Late Baroque was not his true musical identity.
> 
> So, Classical distinction for CPE is correct.


If you would explain that in more concrete terms, I would appreciate that. Not to be argumentative. Quite the contrary, actually. I'm looking to learn, if I can.


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## Lukecash12 (Sep 21, 2009)

clavichorder said:


> @Lukecash, I wonder if you'll appreciate this performance of CPE Bach's string symphonies(ALL OF THEM) on modern instruments.


I'll have to check that out later when I have the time. My preference is for HIP, but only in terms of the tradition of interpretation that I support. I enjoy most any performance, with just a few reservations.


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## presto (Jun 17, 2011)

For me some of CPE Bach works aren’t always instantly appealing. 
I while back bought a 2 CD set of the complete Prussian and Wüttemberg keyboard Sonatas. 
First play through I didn’t warm to them that well, but I’m glad I persevered as I love the works now.


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## presto (Jun 17, 2011)

clavichorder said:


> @Lukecash, I wonder if you'll appreciate this performance of CPE Bach's string symphonies(ALL OF THEM) on modern instruments.


As the years go by the difference between modern and historically informed performances of pre-romantic repertory have got closer and closer. 
Those are very fine performances and don't sound heavy or laboured as they often did 20-30 years ago.


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## clavichorder (May 2, 2011)

presto said:


> For me some of CPE Bach works aren't always instantly appealing.
> I while back bought a 2 CD set of the complete Prussian and Wüttemberg keyboard Sonatas.
> First play through I didn't warm to them that well, but I'm glad I persevered as I love the works now.


Piano, Harpsichord, or Clavichord? CPE is usually instantly appealing with an energetic performance, and you are most likely to get that on a modern piano or fortepiano(sometimes too nuanced on FP). The Prussian and Wuttemburg are great. I know so, because I have site read through many of them. They should be played more often.


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## Vaneyes (May 11, 2010)

Lukecash12 said:


> If you would explain that in more concrete terms, I would appreciate that. Not to be argumentative. Quite the contrary, actually. I'm looking to learn, if I can.


My answer/suspicion is based on listening. I have not researched CPE Bach beyond that.


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