# Opera Men ???



## ScottK (Dec 23, 2021)

So I'm trolling old posts because SOF is in a major female voice thing with his contests right now.......NO, NO DON'T GO CRAZY... I AND EVERYONE ELSE LOVE YOU AND YOUR CONTESTS  ..............(but you ARE in a bit of a soprano contest thing right now John   ) and I come across a 2013 thread about a book which took on that ever so important theme, do gays like opera more than straight people. Well...they gave it to the author pretty good back then and that is not really an idea I can ever remember giving much thought to but it brought to mind something I have thought about......do men like opera more than women? In my life, it's not even close! I think I've had a good mix of gay and straight opera friends but the male female thing??....almost doesn't exist!!! They're just about all men! Look on here!!.....I'm not sure if anyone's stage name is covering their gender but to my awareness, in my brief time, it's Nina and Becca! Forgive me if I'm forgetting someone.

Is it that way in anyone else's perception? Any thoughts why this would be? And if you have the same response, doesn't it sound just slightly counterintuitive? I'm not saying I feel it should be the otherway but, if it were going to be tilted, I think I'd expect the other direction. Or am I showing my dinosaur scales? Any thoughts??.....(nahhh....where'd I put that Callas Maria Stuarda???)


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## BBSVK (10 mo ago)

There was a similar discussion recently on a general classical forum. 









Our better (?) halves


The missus is a marvelous woman. That said, she does not appreciate classical music. In fact, she will seldom tolerate its being audible even from an adjacent room. Boulez or Bach, to her it is all anathema. So just now, while she was out of the house, I took advantage by listening to Mahler's...




www.talkclassical.com





My answer is, that women like or are open to opera more, as well as other classical music or "culture" in general. Men, however, tend to be more extreme in their hobbies, whatever they are. Even at cooking.


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## BBSVK (10 mo ago)

I am a woman, too.

Let me put it like this. I am in two lecture groups on operatic history. Each of these groups is led by a gay man. The audience is overwhelmingly female. Each group contains only cca 3-4 men and 20-30 women.

This TC forum is for people, who are extreme in their obsession about opera. I needed that at this stage in my life. But if you try facebook group of Met HD fans, the gender is more balanced. And it probably skews even more in favour of women, when you get away from internet alltogether.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

I definitely know women best and am more passionate about them but I have taught myself about good male singers for you guys, have come to really enjoy some very much and I am very pleased when I have contest with men that people enjoy as it is all from research on my part. I am heavy on sopranos because I know them best, but I try to present a good mix of other voices into the mix with men every week as I know there are people like you, Scott K when we are lucky to have you, who are really into male singers.. I have been posting for about a year and of the videos I have left in my arsenal I have 338 soprano videos, 224 tenor videos, Mezzos 144, Baritones 131, Duets 84, and Bass 57. The contests that get the most activity and discussion tend to be sopranos. Wagner men, who I put a lot of research into, often get very few responses despite there being a passionate Wagner faction in our midst. Perhaps they don't play in the forum. Perhaps I pick better contestants among sopranos. I spent a lot of time trying to dig up bass contestants but when I post them they rarely get much response. Part of the problem is I go to an aria and there are generally many fewer singers doing them generally if they are men as opposed to women, with the only exception being tenors.
I have read that men have female souls and women male souls. I don't know if that is true. I know gay men who love male singers but definitely I have found gay men to be more passionate quite often about the divas. I have gotten more in touch with my masculine side as I have matured and have gotten more into male voices in the later part of my life most definitely.


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

I've recently heard the suggestion that men (in general and not ALL men) are more obsessive when it comes to hobbies and interests and that rings true for me. When going to live opera I don't notice there being more of one sex over the other, so it's probably more to do with how fanatical men can be!

N.


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## Georgieva (7 mo ago)

I don't think there is any gender specifics here.


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

In my opera world it is pretty much dependent on the venue. 
At the Met, and other top venues, I believe gay men rule, yet when you get to the HD cinemas 90% are widows and women who have dragged along their husbands. Gays do not dominate the HD's so much.
Also, attendance is another interesting point about who sits where..
There is a smattering of couples -- they are the ones who still dress to the nines -- and sit down front, while the gays own the upper regions of the theater. 
Happily, I have also noticed more young people at the Met but very few at the HD's (at least my HD theater).


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## ColdGenius (9 mo ago)

Anthropological observations are a part of the show. 
I go to the opera once or twice a month, sometimes even more. In better times I also traveled with almost obligatory visiting opera. In my theater I recognize a good part of the constant audience. (They also take mostly the same seats, me too.) Women prevail, but the breakaway is not big. The most of the opera audience passed their first of spring. There are also many tourists. I'm not sure who in the audience, including its constant part, is gay. Those several gays I know are not interested in opera. I share my fondness with my wife, but she's less diverse and passionate in it. BBSVK's observation is delicate and deep.


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## ScottK (Dec 23, 2021)

That “men more obsessive “ thing seems to come up a few times in the responses, here as well as over on the other thread... Thank you BBSVK! I find this interesting because If I had to state which gender I thought of as generally more obsessive I would have said women but that would not be a studied observation of life, it would be a reflection of my experience. I’ve thought this about the appeal of opera vs symphonic music .... that one reason - far from the major reason- that opera can appeal more to those who love to discuss and debate is that it’s pros and cons are more accessible to the non-musicians ear. The elemental appeal of unique voices, ringing or wobbly high notes, legato or broken lines, all the components of performing the drama etc. etc and so forth! The tools of debate are, I think, more accessible to most than they are in symphony land. I’ve wondered if this did not play into the competitive strand in men which has been so strongly cultivated for so long! Opera fans debating always reminded me of sports fans doing the same!


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

ColdGenius said:


> Anthropological observations are a part of the show.
> I go to the opera once or twice a month, sometimes even more. In better times I also traveled with almost obligatory visiting opera. In my theater I recognize a good part of the constant audience. (They also take mostly the same seats, me too.) Women prevail, but the breakaway is not big. The most of the opera audience passed their first of spring. There are also many tourists. I'm not sure who in the audience, including its constant part, is gay. Those several gays I know are not interested in opera. I share my fondness with my wife, but she's less diverse and passionate in it. BBSVK's observation is delicate and deep.


You are also in Europe I believe which is a different culture than here in Seattle. Here it has always been majority weatlhy older heterosexual couples.35 years ago there was at least a 15% gay male crowd but AIDS really hit the opera loving gay community very very hard. Now I would guess only 5% are gay men. The really encouraging thing I noticed with our new general director and almost a decade of me not going was that there were a good number of people under 40, even in their 20's. The lovely young lady beside me in her early 20's had seen Tristan 3 times in Europe already!!!! I do agree with the tendency of men to go overboard with their passions though I have known a few obsessed lady opera fans as well. The unique thing about Seattle as opposed to SFO and The Met is we likely have a much much higher percentage who don't speak the languages of operas. Most of our immigrant communities are from Asia and Africa and are not into opera.


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## ScottK (Dec 23, 2021)

Seattleoperafan said:


> I definitely know women best and am more passionate about them but I have taught myself about good male singers for you guys, have come to really enjoy some very much and I am very pleased when I have contest with men that people enjoy as it is all from research on my part. I am heavy on sopranos because I know them best, but I try to present a good mix of other voices into the mix with men every week as I know there are people like you, Scott K when we are lucky to have you, who are really into male singers.. I have been posting for about a year and of the videos I have left in my arsenal I have 338 soprano videos, 224 tenor videos, Mezzos 144, Baritones 131, Duets 84, and Bass 57. The contests that get the most activity and discussion tend to be sopranos. Wagner men, who I put a lot of research into, often get very few responses despite there being a passionate Wagner faction in our midst. Perhaps they don't play in the forum. Perhaps I pick better contestants among sopranos. I spent a lot of time trying to dig up bass contestants but when I post them they rarely get much response. Part of the problem is I go to an aria and there are generally many fewer singers doing them generally if they are men as opposed to women, with the only exception being tenors.
> I have read that men have female souls and women male souls. I don't know if that is true. I know gay men who love male singers but definitely I have found gay men to be more passionate quite often about the divas. I have gotten more in touch with my masculine side as I have matured and have gotten more into male voices in the later part of my life most definitely.


Well Im not surprised but I am amazed at the effort and thought you put into these contests John! And because of it you clearly have the most informed sense of what this group responds to. I’m trusting that if my tone ever fails to convey my appreciation and fondness for all you do - 👍❤ Family bred sarcasm not- with- standing ❤👍 - that my emoji placement does😁❤🤓!


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

ScottK said:


> Well Im not surprised but I am amazed at the effort and thought you put into these contests John! And because of it you clearly have the most informed sense of what this group responds to. I’m trusting that if my tone ever fails to convey my appreciation and fondness for all you do - 👍❤ Family bred sarcasm not- with- standing ❤👍 - that my emoji placement does😁❤🤓!


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Seattleoperafan said:


>


If you would like a particular thread with certain male singers go to this new thread Shaughnessy created and make the suggestion. I trust you judgment completely with male singers. I do my best but can always use some help.;Official SeattleOperaFan Contest Discussion


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## ScottK (Dec 23, 2021)

Seattleoperafan said:


> If you would like a particular thread with certain male singers go to this new thread Shaughnessy created and make the suggestion. I trust you judgment completely with male singers. I do my best but can always use some help.;Official SeattleOperaFan Contest Discussion


I will hang out some on that thread and get the lay of the land. And once I get a bit more time, you are my main source for learning and enjoying more of the ladies world!!!


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## ColdGenius (9 mo ago)

Seattleoperafan said:


> You are also in Europe I believe which is a different culture than here in Seattle. Here it has always been majority weatlhy older heterosexual couples.35 years ago there was at least a 15% gay male crowd but AIDS really hit the opera loving gay community very very hard. Now I would guess only 5% are gay men. The really encouraging thing I noticed with our new general director and almost a decade of me not going was that there were a good number of people under 40, even in their 20's. The lovely young lady beside me in her early 20's had seen Tristan 3 times in Europe already!!!! I do agree with the tendency of men to go overboard with their passions though I have known a few obsessed lady opera fans as well. The unique thing about Seattle as opposed to SFO and The Met is we likely have a much much higher percentage who don't speak the languages of operas. Most of our immigrant communities are from Asia and Africa and are not into opera.


O, SOF! I would rank me to Asia rather than Europe.  
When I came to Salzburg for the first time, I thought they should put defibrillators instead of a part of fire extinguishers. In general, there is a certain part of young audience now. Even in this forum me and BBSVK are not the youngest.


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## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

ScottK said:


> ...do gays like opera more than straight people.
> 
> ...do men like opera more than women?


Why should we be afraid of asking questions like this? I promise you that opera companies certainly ask them because it affects their marketing to a large degree!

Question 1: gay men certainly like opera more than straight men in the USA. They certainly attend more live performances. But when it comes to people who consume opera via recording, I think the tables turn.

Question 2: Women I know seem to prefer going to opera live and have little interest in recordings. With men, it seems to be the opposite. 

Part of the problem comes from a disgusting anti-arts bias, an ingrained macho ethic, and other stigmatizing that kids in the US undergo. TV and the movies don't help. There is a tendency to believe that no "real man" would listen to opera - it's for sissies. Those of us who managed to get through the teen years and into adulthood listening to opera (and classical) are pretty tough guys; everyone of us has experienced the aspersions that there's something wrong with us since we liked opera. Don't even get me started on ballet...


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## ScottK (Dec 23, 2021)

mbhaub said:


> Why should we be afraid of asking questions like this? I promise you that opera companies certainly ask them because it affects their marketing to a large degree!
> 
> Question 1: gay men certainly like opera more than straight men in the USA.
> 
> Those of us who managed to get through the teen years and into adulthood listening to opera .......everyone of us has experienced the aspersions that there's something wrong with us since we liked opera.


I can't tell if you think that I feel the question shouldn't be asked! Any problem I might have with the basic question (and I made it clear that it was being noted because it led to a different question) is the degree that it deals with stereoyped ideas. I'd love to know where you came up with your confidently expressed

"gay men certainly like opera more than straight men in the USA"

As for the Opera companies ..... they are thinking of financial survival in the example you gave, something altogether different.

And....I felt my own personal uniqueness begin in an entirely new and positive way when I discovered opera. I never was given reason to shy from that identity for a second.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

ColdGenius said:


> O, SOF! I would rank me to Asia rather than Europe.
> When I came to Salzburg for the first time, I thought they should put defibrillators instead of a part of fire extinguishers. In general, there is a certain part of young audience now. Even in this forum me and BBSVK are not the youngest.


REALLY! I had no idea.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

ColdGenius said:


> O, SOF! I would rank me to Asia rather than Europe.
> When I came to Salzburg for the first time, I thought they should put defibrillators instead of a part of fire extinguishers. In general, there is a certain part of young audience now. Even in this forum me and BBSVK are not the youngest.


I thought you were in St. Petersburg for some reason.


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## BBSVK (10 mo ago)

Seattleoperafan said:


> REALLY! I had no idea.


Your thread whether opera is about nostalgia for the past made some people reveal stuff. Op. 123 wrote he is in his twenties.


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## ColdGenius (9 mo ago)

Seattleoperafan said:


> I thought you were in St. Petersburg for some reason.


I am! Geographically I live in Europe and think of myself as European, but there are many reasons to suppose that I'm in both parts of the world, mostly in Asia.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

BBSVK said:


> Your thread whether opera is about nostalgia for the past made some people reveal stuff. Op. 123 wrote he is in his twenties.


Marvelous!!!!! I think it is a she.


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## ColdGenius (9 mo ago)

Francasacchi is a girl. By the way, there is no notes from her some time.


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## Op.123 (Mar 25, 2013)

Seattleoperafan said:


> Marvelous!!!!! I think it is a she.


No, I am a he, 
and yes, I'm 23!


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Op.123 said:


> No, I am a he,
> and yes, I'm 23!


23!!!!!!!!! How wonderful to find people your age interested in opera. I sat beside a woman your age at Tristan who had seen it 3 times before! I told her about my opera videos on Youtube hoping we might connect and become pals. It was so refreshing to find a fan so young. For a while we had a young guy from Sri Lanka participating but he has been very quiet, maybe because of school. I think a diverse crowd makes it a more interesting forum. I personally think it helps knowing things like this about people as it makes us less anonymous and more of a community. Do you prefer contemporary singers over singers who were active before you were born? I was into opera heavily as a teenager but it moved to my periphery from 19 till I moved to Seattle in my early 30's and met people into opera. Onlline opera communities greatly enhanced my knowledge and passion for opera over the past 20 years.


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## ColdGenius (9 mo ago)

Op.123 said:


> No, I am a he,
> and yes, I'm 23!


Joined in 2013? You're the youngest opera fan I know.


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## Op.123 (Mar 25, 2013)

ColdGenius said:


> Joined in 2013? You're the youngest opera fan I know.


When I first joined I was more of a piano fan as that is the instrument I play. Probably started getting interested in opera around 16, 17.


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## Op.123 (Mar 25, 2013)

Seattleoperafan said:


> 23!!!!!!!!! How wonderful to find people your age interested in opera. I sat beside a woman your age at Tristan who had seen it 3 times before! I told her about my opera videos on Youtube hoping we might connect and become pals. It was so refreshing to find a fan so young. For a while we had a young guy from Sri Lanka participating but he has been very quiet, maybe because of school. I think a diverse crowd makes it a more interesting forum. I personally think it helps knowing things like this about people as it makes us less anonymous and more of a community. Do you prefer contemporary singers over singers who were active before you were born? I was into opera heavily as a teenager but it moved to my periphery from 19 till I moved to Seattle in my early 30's and met people into opera. Onlline opera communities greatly enhanced my knowledge and passion for opera over the past 20 years.


God no. I like contemporary singers in contemporary opera but do I want to hear them singing Verdi, Wagner, Puccini etc. Absolutely not. I don't know many opera fans my age either but I don't mind too much. I studied composition at a conservatoire but even the vocal students didn't seem too interested in opera and were clearly mostly lost beyond the standard repertoire and contemporary singers such as Netrebko etc.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Op.123 said:


> God no. I like contemporary singers in contemporary opera but do I want to hear them singing Verdi, Wagner, Puccini etc. Absolutely not. I don't know many opera fans my age either but I don't mind too much. I studied composition at a conservatoire but even the vocal students didn't seem too interested in opera and were clearly mostly lost beyond the standard repertoire and contemporary singers such as Netrebko etc.


I know I have agreed with you often in your posts and now that I know you are so young that is remarkable. I see you joined 9 years ago. You must have been a teen about the age I got mad about opera. Fascinating. If you ever get to Seattle let's meet for coffee.


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## Parsifal98 (Apr 29, 2020)

Op.123 said:


> No, I am a he,
> and yes, I'm 23!


We might be the youngest on this part of the forum. 24 years old opera fan here!


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

^Yeah, I remember @annaw saying he's a teenager, (I'm not sure he still is though). A young person with good taste.


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## BBSVK (10 mo ago)

ColdGenius said:


> Joined in 2013? You're the youngest opera fan I know.


Phew, I became an opera fan at 7 years of age !


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## ScottK (Dec 23, 2021)

Op.123 said:


> God no. I like contemporary singers in contemporary opera but do I want to hear them singing Verdi, Wagner, Puccini etc. Absolutely not. I don't know many opera fans my age either but I don't mind too much. I studied composition at a conservatoire but even the vocal students didn't seem too interested in opera and were clearly mostly lost beyond the standard repertoire and contemporary singers such as Netrebko etc.


Now 123...you shouldn't have put your age, because as wise as your observations are I'm now convinced you are letting the old purists among us win you over!!! I had the same experience, that studying music in college (UCONN, not a conservatory) only a few fellow students had any sense of opera at all. But dismissing the present crop of singers as being incapable of performing Verdi or Puccini??? Let an old non-purist convince you, I go to the Met 3 or 4 times a year and I don't need to compare, I just have a wonderful time...................obviously, except for the times I don't   !!! But you get my point!


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Parsifal98 said:


> We might be the youngest on this part of the forum. 24 years old opera fan here!


Parents in your age group got creative with names but I have never heard of a Parsifal before and people not into opera would not get the reference 😜


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## Parsifal98 (Apr 29, 2020)

Seattleoperafan said:


> Parents in your age group got creative with names but I have never heard of a Parsifal before and people not into opera would not get the reference 😜


Indeed they would not! Luckily my name is not Parsifal but I chose this pseudonym in honor of one of my favourite operas!


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## Op.123 (Mar 25, 2013)

ScottK said:


> Now 123...you shouldn't have put your age, because as wise as your observations are I'm now convinced you are letting the old purists among us win you over!!! I had the same experience, that studying music in college (UCONN, not a conservatory) only a few fellow students had any sense of opera at all. But dismissing the present crop of singers as being incapable of performing Verdi or Puccini??? Let an old non-purist convince you, I go to the Met 3 or 4 times a year and I don't need to compare, I just have a wonderful time...................obviously, except for the times I don't   !!! But you get my point!


I've listened to plenty of modern singers and very rarely found them satisfactory. I may be young but I know what I like and its not because of purists. If I were influenced by them I doubt I'd have much love for modern operas, those I like very much. I'm content with records and spending money to go to orchestral or chamber concerts but opera houses rarely offer what I want to hear.


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

Op.123 said:


> When I first joined I was more of a piano fan as that is the instrument I play. Probably started getting interested in opera around 16, 17.


You might be interested to know that my mate studied with Rudolf Serkin at Curtis at age 13. Do you know the name Horzwovski (sp?)


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## Op.123 (Mar 25, 2013)

nina foresti said:


> You might be interested to know that my mate studied with Rudolf Serkin at Curtis at age 13. Do you know the name Horzwovski (sp?)


I don't but he must be very talented and quite lucky to have studied with Serkin!


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

Op.123 said:


> I don't but he must be very talented and quite lucky to have studied with Serkin!


Actually, he found Horzwowski to be the better teacher!


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## Op.123 (Mar 25, 2013)

nina foresti said:


> Actually, he found Horzwowski to be the better teacher!


I shall have to have a listen!


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

Op.123 said:


> I shall have to have a listen!


Another fine teacher was Vengerova.
Being a fine pianist doesn't necessarily mean a person has the talent to teach well.


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## ScottK (Dec 23, 2021)

Op.123 said:


> I've listened to plenty of modern singers and very rarely found them satisfactory. I may be young but I know what I like and its not because of purists. If I were influenced by them I doubt I'd have much love for modern operas, those I like very much. I'm content with records and spending money to go to orchestral or chamber concerts but opera houses rarely offer what I want to hear.


Getting to an opera house, first and foremost, simply comes down to geography and life. But here in New York, Radvanovsky’s Norma, Davidsens Ariadne, Clayton’s Grimes, Fleming’s Marschallin, Calleja’s Gabrielle Adorno, Mattei’s Amfortas....okay I’ll stop. I truly don’t get it. But I do enjoy and appreciate almost😉 all of what you have to say!


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## annaw (May 4, 2019)

hammeredklavier said:


> ^Yeah, I remember @annaw saying he's a teenager, (I'm not sure he still is though). A young person with good taste.


Thanks so much! I have indeed left my teenage years behind, though not overly far behind .

(Ah, also, it's 'she'—that profile picture has proven to be profoundly confusing on multiple occasions but I like Karajan too much to actually change it heh.)


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

ScottK said:


> Getting to an opera house, first and foremost, simply comes down to geography and life. But here in New York, Radvanovsky’s Norma, Davidsens Ariadne, Clayton’s Grimes, Fleming’s Marschallin, Calleja’s Gabrielle Adorno, Mattei’s Amfortas....okay I’ll stop. I truly don’t get it. But I do enjoy and appreciate almost😉 all of what you have to say!


Going to The Met was such a powerful experience for me and I saw Gioconda which I'll never get to see here as it would cost way too much for Seattle.


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

The Metropolitan Opera is my home away from home.
I will be feasting myself this coming Thursday to hear two wonderful singers, Yoncheva and Bernheim in "Rigoletto".
Just walking up those lighted steps toward that huge glass facade brings tears to my eyes.
I know my days are numbered for travel to the Big Apple and I suspect that seeing Gheorghiu (if she shows) in Tosca in April will be my last. 
Of course if the rumor is true that Bernheim will be singing Romeo next season, all bets are off and I'll be back in my usual seat once again.
Nothing has brought me more pleasure than my regular Metropolitan sojourns. My life has been rich and full thanks to the Met.


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## ScottK (Dec 23, 2021)

nina foresti said:


> The Metropolitan Opera is my home away from home.
> 
> Nothing has brought me more pleasure than my regular Metropolitan sojourns. My life has been rich and full thanks to the Met.


I'm with you all the way Nina. Of course we all find our own special places, but I share yours I know you'll love the evening but I do hope you get an extra good one!


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