# Most overlooked instrument in the orchestra



## TudorMihai

Which one do you consider to be the most overlooked instrument in a standard orchestra? For me it's the double bass and the contrabassoon. Too few composers wrote passages for these instruments (I am not talking here about concertos but solo passages in an orchestral/symphonic work).


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## arpeggio

*I second the contrabassoon*



TudorMihai said:


> Which one do you consider to be the most overlooked instrument in a standard orchestra? For me it's the double bass and the contrabassoon. Too few composers wrote passages for these instruments (I am not talking here about concertos but solo passages in an orchestral/symphonic work).


Based on my highly objective, unbiased assessment of the orchestral literature I second the contrabassoon.

 If I am in an uncooperative mood when I am putting up my contra after a concert, and someone comes up to me and asks me, "What's dat?" I will tell them it is a contrabassoboe.


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## Guest

This reminds me I wanted to start a thread to ask about music that features usually neglected instruments - such as the triangle, which gets a thorough workout in Nielsen's Symphony No 5 (2nd mvmt)


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## Mahlerian

Among the traditional instruments, I'd go for the viola, which is often given next to nothing interesting to do, but has great potential for adding variety to the orchestral palette.

My favorite non-traditional instrument, and one I wish I heard used more prominently, more often, is the alto flute. Such a rich and beautiful tone, and it's heard so rarely!


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## Ukko

arpeggio said:


> Based on my highly objective, unbiased assessment of the orchestral literature I second the contrabassoon.
> 
> If I am in an uncooperative mood when I am putting up my contra after a concert, and someone comes up to me and asks me, "What's dat?" I will tell them it is a contrabassoboe.


"the double bass and the contrabassoon" don't get much solo time anywhere, except in jazz ensembles - and when Meyer makes a recording. That still leaves out the contrabassoon, and I think that composers are missing out on a good thing there. That instrument's ability to produce deep bass cheerfulness is sadly neglected.

"Contrabassoboe" - I like it. Say it taking the 'contra' at a sedate rate and the 'bassoboe' fast, with a slight emphasis on the 'o'. Remind you of that 'make love not war' variant on the chimpanzee?


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## arpeggio

*Where Do Contras Come From*

I hate the joke, "Was your contra made in Nicaragua?"


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## Celloman

I want more kazoo concertos.

But yes, double basses are especially overlooked. Except when they're playing Beethoven's 9th.


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## Garlic

I'd like to hear more bass clarinet. A concerto would be nice.


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## techniquest

I'd agree with contrabassoon for the standard orchestra. By the way there is a contrabassoon concerto by Kalevi Aho


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## Guest

BTW - where will I hear a contrabassoon - I mean, are there any popular works by obvious composers where I can hear what it sounds like?


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## dgee

For Contrabassoon solos off the top of my head I can think of Ravel's Mother Goose suite and Concerto for the left hand - there's also a nice solo at the end of the first movement of Prokofiev 3 Symphony if you want to get some underrated repertoire in too


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## Ukko

Garlic said:


> I'd like to hear more bass clarinet. A concerto would be nice.


I like the sound of the bass clarinet, but miss the contrasting registers of the A and B-flat clarinets and bassoon.


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## arpeggio

*"Crocodile Song" from Disney's PETER PAN*

The "Crocodile Song" in Disney's _Peter Pan_ is played on a contrabassoon.


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## Guest

MacLeod said:


> This reminds me I wanted to start a thread to ask about music that features usually neglected instruments - such as the triangle, which gets a thorough workout in Nielsen's Symphony No 5 (2nd mvmt)


Dear MacLeod, in your quest for neglected instruments may I propose this for your delectation:
*Johann Georg Albrechtsberger*, Concerto for Jewish Harp


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## Vesteralen

If you can't have a contrabass oboe, you might opt for the amazing popular heckelphone!


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## Guest

Mahlerian said:


> Among the traditional instruments, I'd go for the viola, which is often given next to nothing interesting to do, but has great potential for adding variety to the orchestral palette.
> 
> My favorite non-traditional instrument, and one I wish I heard used more prominently, more often, is the *alto flute*. Such a rich and beautiful tone, and it's heard so rarely!


Dear Mahlerian,
In your quest I propose you this work incorporating not only the alto but also the *bass flute*! Enjoy!
*Ligeti*, San Francisco Polyphony





(PS: the YouTube extract is not a good performance, in my opinion. Much better is the one by Swedish Radio Symphony Orchestra / Elgar Howarth)


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## Manxfeeder

Celloman said:


> I want more kazoo concertos.
> 
> But yes, double basses are especially overlooked. Except when they're playing Beethoven's 9th.


One of my favorite parts of the 4th movement is the double bass counterpoint after the cellos start playing the main theme. I don't know how many people hang on with the basses and follow that particular line.


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## Manxfeeder

TalkingHead said:


> In your quest I propose you this work incorporating not only the alto but also the *bass flute*!


I'm a fan of both instruments. I've played an alto flute, and I loved how it sounded. Thanks for the clip.


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## Guest

Garlic said:


> *I'd like to hear more bass clarinet*. A concerto would be nice.


Dear Garlic,
Your wish is my command.
*Steve Reich*, _Music for 18 Musicians_.





Maybe sounds better here:


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## TudorMihai

TalkingHead said:


> Dear Mahlerian,
> In your quest I propose you this work incorporating not only the alto but also the *bass flute*! Enjoy!
> *Ligeti*, San Francisco Polyphony
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (PS: the YouTube extract is not a good performance, in my opinion. Much better is the one by Swedish Radio Symphony Orchestra / Elgar Howarth)


For the bass flute you can also try this:






It's kinda short but very profound and beautiful. I also love the sound of the bass flute.


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## Guest

TudorMihai said:


> For the bass flute you can also try this:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It's kinda short but very profound and beautiful. I also love the sound of the bass flute.


Yeah, not bad. There's something quite 'atavistic' about the sound of the bass flute.


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## aleazk

TalkingHead said:


> Dear Mahlerian,
> In your quest I propose you this work incorporating not only the alto but also the *bass flute*! Enjoy!
> *Ligeti*, San Francisco Polyphony
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (PS: the YouTube extract is not a good performance, in my opinion. Much better is the one by Swedish Radio Symphony Orchestra / Elgar Howarth)


And this Ligeti: Violin Concerto, second movement (excerpt here): 




Here you have both of your favorites, Mahlerian, viola and alto flute!.


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## Guest

dgee said:


> For Contrabassoon solos off the top of my head I can think of Ravel's Mother Goose suite and Concerto for the left hand - there's also a nice solo at the end of the first movement of Prokofiev 3 Symphony if you want to get some underrated repertoire in too





arpeggio said:


> The "Crocodile Song" in Disney's _Peter Pan_ is played on a contrabassoon.





TalkingHead said:


> Dear MacLeod, in your quest for neglected instruments may I propose this for your delectation:
> *Johann Georg Albrechtsberger*, Concerto for Jewish Harp


Thanks for all these. My wife is quite used to the sound of different pieces of music coming from the PC, but she had to come in and ask exactly why I was listening to Peter Pan!


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## Piwikiwi

Mahlerian said:


> Among the traditional instruments, I'd go for the viola, which is often given next to nothing interesting to do, but has great potential for adding variety to the orchestral palette.
> 
> My favorite non-traditional instrument, and one I wish I heard used more prominently, more often, is the alto flute. Such a rich and beautiful tone, and it's heard so rarely!


I think the alto flute isn't used that much because it has projection problems. It's just too soft.


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## dgee

If we're casting a bit wider the Oboe d'amore plays a starring role as the baby Strauss' Sinfonia Domestica and it is stunning

Also, Wagner tubas, which are like richer, grainier horns, can be heard to great effect in Bruckner 7 and 8 (especially) and The Ring. I've had the luck to play nearly all the major Wagner tuba repertoire so I'm quite biased here!


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## Turangalîla

I would have to say the oboe, bassoon, and contrabassoon (especially the latter as it is rarely featured—the first two are given a decent amount of attention but still deserve more).


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## Rhombic

Tuba and double bass. Of course, viola too.


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## Toddlertoddy

Classical saxophone. The only famous sax solo that I know of is the one in Pictures arr Ravel


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## anasazi

I will say: the piccolo.  I can't really even think of a solo (except for that Sousa march, but that was for the Db piccolo not the C piccolo anyways). Mostly it's picked up by the third flutist or maybe assistant principle, and merely played to double the strings or winds, almost never for a tune itself. 

It's not even sexy like some other almost unused instruments, it's just kind of a bit of an annoyance. 

But I do know of at least one orchestra player whose #2 instrument is piccolo, say that he wished he had made it his #1 instrument.

Because it is so easy to carry around and it doesn't make huge knots under his chin (he said).

Speaking of the viola, that would be my #2 choice here. Forever meandering in the darkness.

Some reward!

:lol:

Joke: how do you get two piccolo's to play in unison? - Shoot one of them!


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## starthrower

Garlic said:


> I'd like to hear more bass clarinet. A concerto would be nice.


Somebody should've composed one for Eric Dolphy when he was alive.


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## Tristan

Probably the "cor anglais". I'm just glad that there are concertos for this instrument, even though they are very rare.


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## Blake

I'm ready for the Viola da Gamba to start making more appearances again.


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## Vaneyes

Maybe this...

View attachment 27990


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## juergen

I would like to hear more of the harp. Sure, the harp is relatively common in orchestra. But mostly it plays only some arpeggios.


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## Svelte Silhouette

Vaneyes said:


> Maybe this...
> 
> View attachment 27990


um, ignorance is sometimes bliss but what is it



Tristan said:


> Probably the "cor anglais". I'm just glad that there are concertos for this instrument, even though they are very rare.


Contra-bassoon must surely beat this


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## Forte

Quite a few: Viola, double bass, piccolo, cor anglais, bass clarinet, contrabassoon, tuba/euphonium, timpani.

And occasionally cowbell.


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## dgee

Yeah - bass clarinet and cor anglais are not overlooked in any way from Wagner on really - before that they simply weren't regular members of the orchestra. It's nigh on impossible to overlook the piccolo once it gets going


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## dgee

Vaneyes said:


> Maybe this...
> 
> View attachment 27990


It's a serpent - wooden fore-runner of the brass ophicliede - a keyed "bassoon" with a brass mouthpiece which is apparently now gaining a bit of popularity in film scoring. FWIW my spell checker has suggested I correct ophicliede to pedophilia!


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## Forte

dgee said:


> Yeah - bass clarinet and cor anglais are not overlooked in any way from Wagner on really - before that they simply weren't regular members of the orchestra. It's nigh on impossible to overlook the piccolo once it gets going


Overlooked doesn't necessarily mean "not noticed" in the orchestral texture. Otherwise my choice of timpani wouldn't make sense either. You could interpret it that way, but I meant that from my experience, other people have not given those particular instruments as much respect even though at times it commands that respect.


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## PetrB

Mahlerian said:


> Among the traditional instruments, I'd go for the viola, which is often given next to nothing interesting to do, but has great potential for adding variety to the orchestral palette.
> 
> My favorite non-traditional instrument, and one I wish I heard used more prominently, more often, is the alto flute. Such a rich and beautiful tone, and it's heard so rarely!


Gorgeous timbre, but disperse, i.e. it has to be carefully managed as to the orchestral context surrounding it or it is simply not heard. Not so rare, but if you were to call for an otherwise typical use of two or three flutes, all doubled to work in a large orchestral registration, no problem: call for three alto flutes to the same end, problem 

Alto instruments tend to get the harmonic "filler' just as altos (and tenors) in choral writing tend to get less than great lines also covering a harmonic element. The same acoustic phenomenon, less carrying power, must be carefully written 'around' as it were, is part of why there is less work featuring instruments in these registers.

the alto / less used if not neglected list:
Alto Trombone
Viola
Cor Anglais
Oboe d'amore (mezzo-soprano oboe)

already mentioned lower register instruments, the lowest strings, the rather spectacular contra bassoon, the more "exotic" bass trumpet.


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## SuperTonic

anasazi said:


> I will say: the piccolo. I can't really even think of a solo (except for that Sousa march, but that was for the Db piccolo not the C piccolo anyways). Mostly it's picked up by the third flutist or maybe assistant principle, and merely played to double the strings or winds, almost never for a tune itself.


At the end of the first movement of Shostakovich's 10th Symphony there is an extended duet between two piccolos. I agree though that you don't hear one by itself very often. Another similar instrument that is even rarer is the piccolo clarinet.


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## isridgewell

I am an orchestral tuba player and I think it is an instrument capable of great power and expression at the right moments. For example at the beginning of the 4th movement of Shostakovich 13 or by contrast as part of the brass section in a Bruckner symphony. Birtwistle takes the tuba very seriously, sometimes writing for 4 at a time.

Whilst the tuba is not neglected, it is looked upon as a sort of "oddity" in the orchestra normally played by slightly eccentric people!


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## DrKilroy

dgee said:


> It's a serpent - wooden fore-runner of the brass ophicliede - a keyed "bassoon" with a brass mouthpiece which is apparently now gaining a bit of popularity in film scoring. FWIW my spell checker has suggested I correct ophicliede to pedophilia!


This actually has a nice sound, provided it is played well.











Best regards, Dr


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## Piwikiwi

Tristan said:


> Probably the "cor anglais". I'm just glad that there are concertos for this instrument, even though they are very rare.


Composers don't like alto voices that much do they? Viola, alto flute, cor anglais


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## dgee

I'm not getting this stuff about the neglected cor anglais. The cor is probably the solo alto voice of choice in orchestral writing (that is if you aren't including the clarinet or horn in the alto voices - the latter being more of a manly tenor ;-)). Such character! In fact, in the late romantic/early C20 period probably gets to be the wind solo instrument of choice - definitely more air-time than its littler cousin the oboe


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## PeterJB

Contrabassoon. 200 years and it only has a handful of orchestral solos.


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## Kommand

I second the contrabassoon, and really any non-tuba bass instrument.


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## Novelette

PeterJB said:


> Contrabassoon. 200 years and it only has a handful of orchestral solos.


People who dedicate themselves to such instruments deserve praise.  There are those of us who benefit greatly by their devotion.


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