# What do you think of Rattle's Mahler?



## DavidA

Simon Rattle has given us a complete Mahler cycle with the CBSO and BPO. I ahem some but not a complete set. Some reckon Rattle's Mahler to be very highly rated. Others don't. Your opinions?


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## CnC Bartok

I have his EMI box, plus a couple of extras here and there. As a cycle, they're very good, but oddly enough I don't find myself returning to them that often.

No.1: Pretty average, but I do like Blumine, albeit on its own...
No.2: CBSO. A fantastic performance all round.
No.3: Excellent
No.4: Meh....
No.5: Not particularly memorable
No.6: Very good
No.7: a tad dull
No.8: A proper event. Excellent
No.9: Not particularly memorable
No.10 (Berlin): Over glossy
Das klagende Lied: Top choice
Das Lied: Excellent. Love it with a baritone!
Das Lied (BRSO) Sadly uninvolving
No.10: (Bournemouth): Desert island disc


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## elgar's ghost

I haven't got the Berlin 2nd, 4th, 6th, _DLvdE_, either of the 9ths or the Bournemouth 10th. Highlights for me are the 2nd, 3rd, 5th and 10th, but, as much as I like them, none are really first choices for me.


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## CnC Bartok

David, please do start a thread for No.10 at some stage. The collection and its fascinating conversations/arguments would not be complete without it....


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## DavidA

Robert Pickett said:


> David, please do start a thread for No.10 at some stage. The collection and its fascinating conversations/arguments would not be complete without it....


Certainly..........................


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## DavidA

Robert Pickett said:


> I have his EMI box, plus a couple of extras here and there. As a cycle, they're very good, but oddly enough I don't find myself returning to them that often.
> 
> No.1: Pretty average, but I do like Blumine, albeit on its own...
> *No.2: CBSO. A fantastic performance all round.*
> No.3: Excellent
> No.4: Meh....
> No.5: Not particularly memorable
> No.6: Very good
> No.7: a tad dull
> No.8: A proper event. Excellent
> No.9: Not particularly memorable
> No.10 (Berlin): Over glossy
> Das klagende Lied: Top choice
> Das Lied: Excellent. Love it with a baritone!
> Das Lied (BRSO) Sadly uninvolving
> No.10: (Bournemouth): Desert island disc


Just listening to it. Fantastic!


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## realdealblues

The only Mahler recording of Rattle's I generally return to is his 10th in Berlin which I think was excellent with far better orchestral playing than Bournemouth although both are pretty similar in conception (discounting the obvious differences in the score used).

The rest were good to dull, and none really stand out as a top contender against what's out there now in my book.


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## Merl

Don't like his older Mahler but newer recordings I've found far more interesting.


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## philoctetes

Heard the 7th live in SF two years ago with Berlin and it was big and loud as if Rattle was Karajan, but well-paced, tight, and superior to the time I heard MTT do it.


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## Brahmsianhorn

Heard the 9th last summer in Salzburg and it was quite good. His BPO version ranks quite high on my list. Otherwise I like his Birmingham 2nd and 7th.


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## Becca

I generally like Rattle's Mahler although I haven't heard all of his studio recordings, however his 2nd is not a favourite as he slows it down too much, particularly the start. His 10th is great, the 8th is really up there amongst the best (if only his Proms/NYOGB would be released) as is his June 2018 BPO 6th. Unfortunately the best 4th I have heard is not available on CD, only in the Digital Concert Hall.


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## mbhaub

I didn't like any of it in LA, and his early cds on EMI I didn't care for much either. In fact, I just don't care for most of Rattle's conducting. Mahler 10 is excellent. My reasons: he's too much of a micro-manager, often controlling to the point that it becomes cloying and silly. His minute control of dynamics in the EMI M2 was irritating. If the score had called for some of his meddling that's one thing - but it doesn't. Recently though I have started to watch his Mahler cycle on the Berlin Philharmonic Digital Concert Hall - so far it's been pretty darn good. Maybe he's loosened up as he aged. He does have a way with the 6th. Maybe it's the astonishing virtuosity of the Berliners that lets him loosen the reins. It will be interesting to see what he does in London and I would be surprised if there isn't yet another Mahler cycle.


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## Kollwitz

Saw Rattle conduct a live performance of Mahler 6 with the LSO at the Barbican a couple of years ago and thought it was very good. First movement is here: 



 Shame that it's not the whole performance as I thought it hung together well and the finale was gripping. I was a less experienced listener then, but it seemed to stand comparison with the Jansons, Abbado, Sanderling and Chailly recordings that I was listening to a lot at the time.


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## david johnson

I have a great amount of Mahler on lp/cd, but the only box I own is Rattle's EMI. The price was good.


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## Enthusiast

I never liked his 2. I quite like his 10 (Bournemouth) but I'm not really a fan of 10. In general I don't greatly like Rattle and tend to avoid him. I find him too fussy.


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## Kiki

I think Rattle's Mahler has evolved quite a lot through the years. I don't particularly warm to his earlier Mahler, but his recent Berlin 6 and Bavaria Das Lied von der Erde are some of my favourites.


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## Merl

Kiki said:


> I think Rattle's Mahler has evolved quite a lot through the years. I don't particularly warm to his earlier Mahler, but his recent Berlin 6 and Bavaria Das Lied von der Erde are some of my favourites.


Yep, as Becca proved with her blind comparison of Mahler 4ths (where Rattle's BPO digital concert hall performance was universally very popular) Rattle's Mahler has come a long way since that first cycle. He's definitely less micro-fussy and stiff with his newer Mahler (and other recordings). I hope he loosens up even more as he gets older. If he does I see some rather special recordings coming from him in his later years. Listen to his Dvorak Tone Poems recordings, with the BPO, and you can see where he may be heading. In fact, I'd love him to have a crack at a live Dvorak cycle with the LSO. I think he'd knock a really good one out. Hope so. I like him.


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## Larkenfield

Rattle seems to have relaxed and loosened up his grip over the years. Like others have mentioned, he would too often appear to micromanage the orchestra with a gaping mouth and appear to hover over and smother it. Give the orchestra some breathing room and let go of such a tight reign! Well, I think more examples of him letting go can be heard. 

I like his Mahler 6 (done in Mahler's published order) and I think his performance of the four-movement Bruckner 9th completion is truly outstanding and should not be missed. It’s the best recording I’ve heard from him playing anyone, and the Bruckner 9th deserves to be heard, as the composer had the fourth movement almost entirely completed except for a relatively few bars at the time of his death. It sounds amazing like true Bruckner and I can easily imagine that it will be performed more in the future by other orchestras than the traditional three-movement 9th. Rattle is championing the completion. I also believe that his Mahler and Bruckner performances will continue to deepen and improve. 

I think Rattle has done well with the BPO and greatly matured from his previously fussy hovering habits and there’s still a great deal of music left in him to come in his remaining years. I can easily imagine him living a long life and becoming one of those venerable old conductors with a grey head of curly hair and a growing audience.


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## Merl

Will he do another Beethoven cycle, though? Lol, I can see him doing another at some time. I hope he really let's go next time. The BPO (or the VPO, previously, for that matter) one was hardly shoddy but with a lot more abandon it could have been brilliant (the recording is superb). Wouldn't be surprised if he had another Sibelius cycle in him too. I still can't get on with his two previous cycles. I'm still hoping for Dvorak, though. He's not had a crack at that yet and the LSO have a tradition of Dvorak.


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## Kiki

Merl said:


> Yep, as Becca proved with her blind comparison of Mahler 4ths (where Rattle's BPO digital concert hall performance was universally very popular) Rattle's Mahler has come a long way since that first cycle. He's definitely less micro-fussy and stiff with his newer Mahler (and other recordings). I hope he loosens up even more as he gets older. If he does I see some rather special recordings coming from him in his later years. Listen to his Dvorak Tone Poems recordings, with the BPO, and you can see where he may be heading. In fact, I'd love him to have a crack at a live Dvorak cycle with the LSO. I think he'd knock a really good one out. Hope so. I like him.


I remember watching an interview a few years ago of Rattle saying he tended to meddle less in the orchestra's playing than in the past. This may very well be true. (Despite some entrepreneurial star musicians sometimes talk nonsense to promote or impress, but that's another story.)

In his recent Berlin recordings, i.e. Beethoven, Sibelius, Schumann, the Asian Tour and the Mahler 6, there seems to be a rather peculiar "Rattle Sound" (for the lack of a better word) - saturated, very beautiful, strings are lighter but skin-tickling. Does anybody feel in a similar way about it? Anyway I do like this sound. I can't wait to hear what kind of a sound he will cultivate in London.


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## Totenfeier

Is _abhor_ too strong a word...naahh.

Maybe I can let him pickle awhile and try again.

However, I would like a Magdalena Kozena, Lady Rattle, of my very own, please. I promise to feed her and clean up after her every day.


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## DavidA

Kiki said:


> I remember watching an interview a few years ago of *Rattle saying he tended to meddle less in the orchestra's playing than in the past.* This may very well be true. (Despite some entrepreneurial star musicians sometimes talk nonsense to promote or impress, but that's another story.)
> 
> In his recent Berlin recordings, i.e. Beethoven, Sibelius, Schumann, the Asian Tour and the Mahler 6, there seems to be a rather peculiar "Rattle Sound" (for the lack of a better word) - saturated, very beautiful, strings are lighter but skin-tickling. Does anybody feel in a similar way about it? Anyway I do like this sound. I can't wait to hear what kind of a sound he will cultivate in London.


I think it was Beecham who said to his orchestra: "I know it and you know it so why don't we just play it!"


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## DrSardonicus

Enthusiast said:


> I never liked his 2. I quite like his 10 (Bournemouth) but I'm not really a fan of 10. In general I don't greatly like Rattle and tend to avoid him. I find him too fussy.


I'm new to the Classical thing, so help me out. What does fussy conducting actually sound like?


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## Becca

DrSardonicus said:


> I'm new to the Classical thing, so help me out. What does fussy conducting actually sound like?


A performance that you disapprove of


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## Kiki

Merl said:


> Will he do another Beethoven cycle, though? Lol, I can see him doing another at some time. I hope he really let's go next time. The BPO (or the VPO, previously, for that matter) one was hardly shoddy but with a lot more abandon it could have been brilliant (the recording is superb). Wouldn't be surprised if he had another Sibelius cycle in him too. I still can't get on with his two previous cycles. I'm still hoping for Dvorak, though. He's not had a crack at that yet and the LSO have a tradition of Dvorak.


Come to think about it, Rattle has not released on records all the Mahler symphonies with the Berliner Philharmoniker (even though performances of all symphonies are available on Digital Concert Hall)

1 - on EuroArts BD/DVD
2, 5, 9, 10 - on EMI
6 (two of them) - on Berliner Philharmoniker Recordings

Have I missed any? If not, that leaves 3, 4, 7 and Das Lied von der Erde (the recent Bavaria Das Lied does not count of course). I'm wondering if he would complete a cycle with Berlin, but then I'd certainly welcome a new cycle with the LSO.

P.S. Personally, I'd love to see new cycles of Lutosławski, Rachmaninov or maybe even Vaughan Williams from Rattle with the LSO.


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## Kiki

DavidA said:


> I think it was Beecham who said to his orchestra: "I know it and you know it so why don't we just play it!"


Full of wisdom, as always, or rant. :lol:


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## Becca

Kiki said:


> P.S. Personally, I'd love to see new cycles of Lutosławski, Rachmaninov or maybe even Vaughan Williams from Rattle with the LSO.


I can imagine the first two but Rattle & RVW ... sounds very unlikely. Strange as it may seem, I can imagine Kirill Petrenko doing an RVW cycle before Rattle would as one of Petrenko's earliest BPO concerts included the Elgar 2nd! The only piece by RVW that I know Rattle did in Berlin is the Tallis Fantasia as part of a special Philharmonie 50th anniversary concert where they chose pieces that made the best of the acoustics.


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## Kiki

Becca said:


> I can imagine the first two but Rattle & RVW ... sounds very unlikely. Strange as it may seem, I can imagine Kirill Petrenko doing an RVW cycle before Rattle would as one of Petrenko's earliest BPO concerts included the Elgar 2nd! The only piece by RVW that I know Rattle did in Berlin is the Tallis Fantasia as part of a special Philharmonie 50th anniversary concert where they chose pieces that made the best of the acoustics.


You may very well be right! Talking about unlikelihood, I'd also wish for a Tchaikovsky cycle (given a pretty nice Nutcracker that he has done).


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## Merl

Kiki said:


> In his recent Berlin recordings, i.e. Beethoven, Sibelius, Schumann, the Asian Tour and the Mahler 6, there seems to be a rather peculiar "Rattle Sound" (for the lack of a better word) - saturated, very beautiful, strings are lighter but skin-tickling. Does anybody feel in a similar way about it? Anyway I do like this sound. I can't wait to hear what kind of a sound he will cultivate in London.


Yep, I have noticed it too. Its Karajanesque but where in HvK the strings were heavier this is a much softer texture but very 'ravishing'. It's a sound I really like. I think the BPO may have taught him a thing or too. I'll be interested if he makes the LSO sound like the BPO or whether he'll develop a very unique sound.


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## grandebulla

This is the only excellent Rattle´s recording


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## DavidA

grandebulla said:


> This is the only excellent Rattle´s recording
> View attachment 112117


It is pretty good. And superbly recorded


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## Enthusiast

DrSardonicus said:


> I'm new to the Classical thing, so help me out. What does fussy conducting actually sound like?


I was referring to the tendency that many others went on to say was more in his past than now. That is good news for me as I have avoided him over the last fifteen years.

Either way - as noted by Becca - I never did like his Birmingham Mahler 2. It was one of the first records of his that I bought. For a long time it was _*the *_critical recommendation in Britain - above the Klemperer and the LSO Solti - and that was something I didn't understand. As I was far from a Mahler fan at the time I assumed it was my failure but, now, I think it is generally agreed that Klemperer's recordings were great and that Solti's was also a good one. And there are many others - old and new - available these days but not too many people mention Rattle's first Mahler 2.


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## Larkenfield

DrSardonicus said:


> I'm new to the Classical thing, so help me out. What does fussy conducting actually sound like?


When a conductor attempts to conduct every player down to the last detail, or so it seems, it's sometimes referred to as fussy conducting. To do so is considered overly controlling and interfering with the natural playing of the orchestra. I remember seeing Rattle conducting in a very animated, very nervous and mercurial way in front of the BPO in a way that was very distracting, and I thought, "My God, I don't think I could play for someone like this." Fussy conducting. But he does seem to have mellowed and is now more confortable and relaxed on the podium.


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## perdido34

I saw Rattle lead the Cleveland Orchestra in Mahler 10 a long time ago--it was a memorable performance. TYhe orchestra has never invited him back--nobody is saying why not.

His recent live Mahler 10 with LSO is on YouTube--that was also a very fine performance.


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## Becca

perdido34 said:


> I saw Rattle lead the Cleveland Orchestra in Mahler 10 a long time ago--it was a memorable performance. TYhe orchestra has never invited him back--nobody is saying why not.
> 
> His recent live Mahler 10 with LSO is on YouTube--that was also a very fine performance.


Rattle has long been very conservative in his choices of where to guest conduct. I believe that the only US orchestras that he has worked with in years are Los Angeles (a connection going back to the mid 1980s) and Philadelphia. In addition he has conducted at the Met.


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## Artran

With City of Birmingham Symphony Orchestra I can't stand his 2nd but really like the 3rd!


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## NLAdriaan

Rattle used to be my hero and his Mahler 2nd (CBSO) was my long time treasured recording of the work. 

But not anymore, to me at least. As I see it now, he lacks attachment to a piece and so his interpretations remain too much on the outside. Where some conductors grow older, their music gets only better, more music, less ego. Maybe with Rattle, it doesn't work like that. 

I already said so somewhere here, but a few months ago I attended Rattle and BPO live in a 'completed' Bruckner 9. It was awful, the volume-button was on 11 (for those of you who know Spinal Tap), it was rude and he literally blew Bruckner to pieces. The added final part was disturbing, but the three existing parts were empty shells. When compared to a live reading of Jansons and RCO in Bruckner 9 of a few years earlier, the difference was extreme. And compared to Gunter Wand conducting the same band from Berlin in a grand Bruckner 9 on disc:angel:, well, you know... 

It is somehow interesting that Rattle is known for recording Mahler 10 and Bruckner 9 with extra music, especially if he has not that much to say in the existing music. In Bach's passions, Rattle performs a staged version. How interesting it may be, also here, something apparently has to be added to the music in order for Rattle to stand out.

I don't want to spoil anything here and it is only my personal view. But I look elsewhere for my musical infusions. 

As to the BPO, I can't wait to hear the first of its new Chief, 'the other' Petrenko! Could well be a real turn to the musical inside.


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## DavidA

NLAdriaan said:


> Rattle used to be my hero and his Mahler 2nd (CBSO) was my long time treasured recording of the work.
> 
> But not anymore, to me at least. As I see it now, he lacks attachment to a piece and so his interpretations remain too much on the outside. Where some conductors grow older, their music gets only better, more music, less ego. Maybe with Rattle, it doesn't work like that.
> 
> I already said so somewhere here, but a few months ago I attended Rattle and BPO live in* a 'completed' Bruckner 9.* It was awful, the volume-button was on 11 (for those of you who know Spinal Tap), it was rude and he literally blew Bruckner to pieces. The added final part was disturbing, but the three existing parts were empty shells. When compared to a live reading of Jansons and RCO in Bruckner 9 of a few years earlier, the difference was extreme. And compared to Gunter Wand conducting the same band from Berlin in a grand Bruckner 9 on disc:angel:, well, you know...
> 
> It is somehow interesting that Rattle is known for recording Mahler 10 and Bruckner 9 with extra music, especially if he has not that much to say in the existing music. In Bach's passions, Rattle performs a staged version. How interesting it may be, also here, something apparently has to be added to the music in order for Rattle to stand out.
> 
> I don't want to spoil anything here and it is only my personal view. But I look elsewhere for my musical infusions.
> 
> As to the BPO, I can't wait to hear the first of its new Chief, 'the other' Petrenko! Could well be a real turn to the musical inside.


I have the completed Bruckner 9th on disc and it disappointed me too. Not the completion but the performance seemed unBrucknerian compared with the great Bruckner conductors like Karajan and Jochum.


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## NLAdriaan

Becca said:


> Rattle has long been very *conservative in his choices of where to guest conduct*. I believe that the only US orchestras that he has worked with in years are Los Angeles (a connection going back to the mid 1980s) and Philadelphia. In addition he has conducted at the Met.


Here in Holland, Rattle conducted the RCO only once. I know that there was something in the chemistry with the orchestra that didn't work out. He was never invited again. So, it just could be that not only Sir Simon is selective, but that his options are also somehow limited.


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## Rogerx

NLAdriaan said:


> Here in Holland, Rattle conducted the RCO only once. I know that there was something in the chemistry with the orchestra that didn't work out. He was never invited again. So, it just could be that not only Sir Simon is selective, but that his options are also somehow limited.


Rotterdam Philharmonic adored him though.


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## NLAdriaan

DavidA said:


> I have the completed Bruckner 9th on disc and it disappointed me too. Not the completion but the performance seemed unBrucknerian compared with the great Bruckner conductors like Karajan and Jochum.


David, please take a listen to Wand's RCA Bruckners with the BPO. I got to know them just very recently and purchased the set. They are the new standard for me, spot on in Bruckner, which is really something. For me, Wand surely surpasses Karajan and in its clarity and vividness maybe also Jochum. I also am a Celibidache fan in Bruckner, but Wand offers more. Wand just does everything right here and offers the best structure in Bruckner. The BPO is a revelation. Wand does never exaggerate, which most Bruckner-conductors just don't manage. Funny, in the booklet it says that Rattle attended rehearsals and concerts in order to 'learn' from Wand, who was his 'role model'. As we experienced ourselves, the lessons were clearly not effective


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## NLAdriaan

Rogerx said:


> Rotterdam Philharmonic adored him though.


Absolutely, just as the BPO and CBSO and apparently now the LSO.


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## juliante

DavidA said:


> Just listening to it. Fantastic!


Was the choice in BBC 3s 'Building a Library' for Maher 2. I am personally not so keen on Urlicht here but otherwise it is wonderful.


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## nobilmente

I don't like Rattle at all: the music has surface gloss but an icy heart.


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## BRHiler

I love his Mahler 2 with the CBSO
I also really liked his Mahler 5. I found the last movement to be exhilarating. 
Mahler 8th is one of the best I've ever heard (that and MTT are the ones I listen to the most)
9th is excellent
His newest Mahler 6th with Berlin is quite engaging, the CBSO recording I didn't care for as much
I've only listened to his 1st, 3rd, and 4th once or twice, so I can't really comment on them.
His 7th is very good, but not the best out there.
Outside of the Adagio, I'm not a fan of the 10th, so I don't know the piece


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## SONNET CLV

*What do you think of Rattle's Mahler?*

I think more about Mahler's Rattle. What kind of music did little tyke Gustav produce when he shook his *Rassel*. Perhaps we have an inkling of it with the opening sleigh-bells (Schelle) of the Fourth Symphony, a paean to innocence if ever there was one!


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## cyberstudio

NLAdriaan said:


> I already said so somewhere here, but a few months ago I attended Rattle and BPO live in a 'completed' Bruckner 9. It was awful, the volume-button was on 11 (for those of you who know Spinal Tap), it was rude and he literally blew Bruckner to pieces. The added final part was disturbing, but the three existing parts were empty shells. When compared to a live reading of Jansons and RCO in Bruckner 9 of a few years earlier, the difference was extreme. And compared to Gunter Wand conducting the same band from Berlin in a grand Bruckner 9 on disc:angel:, well, you know...


I would have totally agreed with you that on the merits of the first 3 movements alone or the lack thereof, there are a great number of contenders doing Bruckner 9th better. But I do want the 4th movement, even if I am to press stop at the coda which was not under Bruckner's hand. It would have been Bruckner's finest finale had it been finished. Forgive me for stating the obvious, but the usual way to treat Bruckner 9th is to turn the 3rd movement into the finale by unduly amplifying it, and then slow down the first movement enough and make it front-heavy that now you have a nice-rounded structure. (i.e. 1st movement is the main protogonist instead of the finale, as in the 6th and the 7th) But this is wrong. Just plain wrong, because it was not the original intent. You can either violate the letter by 'completing' the symphony or violate the spirit by altering the overall structure. Rattle's real problem, in my opinion, was that he did not seem to have done this out of love for the symphony. (Or at least, it was not self-evident from his recording.) It was more a ploy in his push for new repertoire, promote new music, and to try to repeat his success with Cooke's 10th. As it's often said, you're either in Mahler's camp or Bruckner's camp, but not both, but seeing that you mentioned Jansons maybe there is an exception, after all.

I was drawn to Rattle by his SBSO Sibelius cycle. The 10th again CBSO is his only Mahler I have. Both are emotionally powerful. I think he does for this generation what Bernstein did for the last. Time will tell, but no one who had ever been in the BPO line of succession had not aroused controversies.


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## Enthusiast

nobilmente said:


> I don't like Rattle at all: the music has surface gloss but an icy heart.


I wonder. I'm not a fan at all. But I do suspect that as he continues to mature he will become great, including in Mahler. I never like much of what he did with the CBSO (certainly not his Mahler 2) and haven't liked what I have heard of his Berlin recordings. But do sometimes hear the seeds of greatness in his work.


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## NLAdriaan

cyberstudio said:


> ...As it's often said, you're either in Mahler's camp or Bruckner's camp, but not both, but seeing that you mentioned Jansons maybe there is an exception, after all....
> 
> ...I was drawn to Rattle by his SBSO Sibelius cycle. The 10th again CBSO is his only Mahler I have. Both are emotionally powerful. I think he does for this generation what Bernstein did for the last. Time will tell, but no one who had ever been in the BPO line of succession had not aroused controversies.


I can add Haitink to the comparison, who is top class in both Mahler and Bruckner (and Shostakovich, be it in the European tradition). But any Chief of the Concertgebouw orchestra will have to show his skills with both composers, as they belong to the household repertoire of the orchestra.

Rattle sure has been helpful in marketing the BPO and possibly reaching out to new audiences, as Bernstein did in his days, but musically his finest hour was with the CBSO, as far as I am concerned.

I would think that Abbado didn't arouse controversy in Berlin, he just was the counterpart of Karajan, what everyone was looking for. As Petrenko could well become the counterpart of Rattle. Maybe in Berlin they just look for extremes


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## joen_cph

I really like Rattle's early Mahler/Cooke X with the Bournemouth SO, and it's one of my favourite recordings, also more than the later with BPO. 

Besides that, I haven't heard more of his Mahler. Generally I don't find his recordings that interesting, but of course I own some of his British music stuff etc. Skipped some of his Neue Wiener Schule items.


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## Bourdon

I recently read that the he is an excellent Stravinsky interpreter,any comments on that?


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## CnC Bartok

Bourdon said:


> I recently read that the he is an excellent Stravinsky interpreter,any comments on that?


He's more than just ok with Stravinsky as far as I am concerned. That said, two of my favourite Stravinsky masterpieces - the Symphony of Psalms, and Apollo - are a tad disappointing. For me both pieces need a detached element, and I find he over-romanticises both.

His Rite is excellent; actually, both of them. If you can find an ASV recording - it's very early Rattle btw - of him doing the Rite with the National Youth Orchestra, it's worth hearing


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## loop7

I like some of the recordings included in the EMI box. I would say the second symphony is my favorite from that era.

However, Rattle's 5th, also on EMI, with Berlin has been my #1 recording for years.


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## BRHiler

Bourdon said:


> I recently read that the he is an excellent Stravinsky interpreter,any comments on that?


He's recorded Le Sacre twice. Once w/ the CBSO, and once w/ Berlin. They make for a startling comparison. I personally like the CBSO much more, it's more raw, less "shiny" which The Rite should be. The Berlin recording is strong, but lacks the punch of the CBSO.

He recorded the "other" two ballets with CBSO. They're good, but nothing fantastic.
He's done the various symphonies. Again, good, but nothing fantastic.

One of my favorite recordings of Rattle is actually his Shostakovich #4. That's intense!


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## Enthusiast

Bourdon said:


> I recently read that the he is an excellent Stravinsky interpreter,any comments on that?


You can do quite a lot better. Stravinsky himself is always worth hearing. Ancerl's few recordings are excellent. But there are also many more recent recordings of many of the major works. Rattle's tendency to fiddle is not helpful with Stravinsky, I feel. But Rattle's fans - something that I am decidedly not - will probably feel differently so it probably depends on how you like his work and what you want from Stravinsky.


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## DavidA

Enthusiast said:


> You can do quite a lot better. *Stravinsky himself is always worth hearing.* Ancerl's few recordings are excellent. But there are also many more recent recordings of many of the major works. Rattle's tendency to fiddle is not helpful with Stravinsky, I feel. But Rattle's fans - something that I am decidedly not - will probably feel differently so it probably depends on how you like his work and what you want from Stravinsky.


Listen to the Rite!


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## joen_cph

Stravinsky did several Rite recordings - the most well-known is the Columbia stereo, which is good.

There is also a wilder one from the 40s (I've just ordered the restored CD version)
https://www.prestomusic.com/classical/products/8004938--stravinsky-conducts-stravinsky

one from 1929, and a live from Stockholm 1961 (I have the LP & wasn't overly impressed). 
Possibly further ones too.


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## Larkenfield

What do I think of Rattle’s Mahler? I would like to see him conduct with his mouth closed.


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## Enthusiast

DavidA said:


> Listen to the Rite!


I almost thought you were talking about Rattle's Rite. I have many many Rites. The Stravinsky one I know (the later one) was my first and is at the foundation of how I hear the work.


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## flamencosketches

I'm looking to branch out from my select circle of "preferred" Mahlerian conductors: Bernstein, Klemperer, Walter, and to a lesser extent, Barbirolli, Abbado, Kubelík into some of the renowned conductors of a more recent generation. Two that have captured my interest are Rattle and Tennstedt. 

As for Rattle, I like what I have heard of his 2nd with the CBSO, Arleen Auger & Janet Baker (a great team for the work I think), plus his Berlin 9th. I have his Berlin 10th but I question whether the completed Cooke 10th is a work I will ever find love for. 

Are there any other must-hear Rattle Mahler recordings? Is it worth hearing the Bournemouth 10th if I already have the Berlin? FWIW, I love the Bournemouth SO.


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## Knorf

I still like Rattle's Bournemouth Mahler 10 better than the Berliner recording. But better than either is Dausgaard/Seattle Symphony on their own label! That one should be in every Mahler collection.


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## flamencosketches

Knorf said:


> I still like Rattle's Bournemouth Mahler 10 better than the Berliner recording. But better than either is Dausgaard/Seattle Symphony on their own label! That one should be in every Mahler collection.


Dausgaard, eh? I like his recordings of Nørgård with the Danish National RSO. Never heard any of his Mahler. The Seattle Symphony is a pretty solid band too. I'll have to check that out.


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## Knorf

Dausgaard is the real deal.

For a laugh, check out David "I am a GOD" Hurwitz's review of Dausgaard's recent Bruckner 6. What a pompous git.

I don't know whether I'll pick up this Bruckner 6, but Hurwitz's self-inflated opprobrium has piqued my interest more than might have otherwise been the case.


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## Kiki

flamencosketches said:


> I'm looking to branch out from my select circle of "preferred" Mahlerian conductors: Bernstein, Klemperer, Walter, and to a lesser extent, Barbirolli, Abbado, Kubelík into some of the renowned conductors of a more recent generation. Two that have captured my interest are Rattle and Tennstedt.
> 
> As for Rattle, I like what I have heard of his 2nd with the CBSO, Arleen Auger & Janet Baker (a great team for the work I think), plus his Berlin 9th. I have his Berlin 10th but I question whether the completed Cooke 10th is a work I will ever find love for.
> 
> Are there any other must-hear Rattle Mahler recordings? Is it worth hearing the Bournemouth 10th if I already have the Berlin? FWIW, I love the Bournemouth SO.


I wholeheartedly recommend Rattle's 2018 live Berlin 6th (on BP Recordings). Dark, powerful, and utterly beautiful.

Also like his 1991 live Birmingham 7th (EMI). It's wild but he never lost it along the way.

If I remember correctly, Gramophone gave him high praises for his 2002 live Berlin 5th (EMI). I'm not too keen on it. It's a bit too volatile for me. But your mileage will vary.

And of course his two No. 10s. You know the Berlin 10th already, which IMO sounds richer and more cohesive, and that solo flute in the Finale is sublime; while the Bournemouth sounds rawer in the Adagio. But if you're not so keen about the 10th, I doubt the Bournemouth will change your mind, but then one never knows... 

--

BTW the Dausgaard 10th is probably one of the most turbulent. It's quite something.


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## Long02

The 2011 recording of the second symphony is one of my favourite recordings full stop. I find that with all his works and especially this one there’s such an emotional outpouring that it really makes you feel the music. Some may find it too much but I tend to think the image Mahler had in mind for his symphonies wasn’t miles away from Rattle’s recordings. Having said that there are some times I really struggle to listen to his recordings and have to be in the mood to really feel them whilst there are other Mahler conductors I can turn on at any time.


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## HenryPenfold

His M2 is a long-time fave of mine. Bought it on its release in the early 90s and I put it up there with the best of 'em.

Ditto M9 (EMI). One of the best, IMVHO.

Das Klagende Lied EMI stays with me as a fave.

I downloaded the recent BPO Bruckner cycle from 7 Digital because it was stupidly cheap, but I haven't got around to listening to it yet.


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## Knorf

Speaking of Dausgaard-and I apologize for my continued hijack of this Rattle thread-he did a superb Mahler 1 in the fall of 2019 with the Seattle Symphony that was broadcast live then, and again recently during the pandemic with all live concerts canceled.

If this Mahler 1 is ever released (if it were, it would probably be on their own label), I would get it.

Ok, Rattle. Aside from his Bournemouth Mahler 10, which I really do like, and the CBSO Mahler 2, which I remember liking, little of what Rattle does is memorable to me. Except for his mouth agape, chewing and mugging at the orchestra. And his poodle hair. That I remember. If I ever had to play for him-and that would be an undeniable thrill-I'd have to mostly never look directly at him.

But so many people I know, whose musical tastes I respect, really like Rattle in recordings, so I keep giving him more chances.

ETA: I just remembered I've heard that _Das Klagende Lied_ from Rattle. It's excellent, but not as good as Boulez/LSO.


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## elgar's ghost

Kiki said:


> _If I remember correctly, Gramophone gave him high praises for his 2002 live Berlin 5th (EMI)_. I'm not too keen on it. It's a bit too volatile for me. But your mileage will vary.


If I remember correctly, _Gramophone_ used to give him high praise for virtually everything... :devil:


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## Knorf

elgars ghost said:


> If I remember correctly, _Gramophone_ used to give him high praise for virtually everything... :devil:


"Used to"?

Is there a review from Gramophone about Rattle that is negative?
:lol:


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## elgar's ghost

^
^

Is their fanboy-ism still in evidence? I haven't read _Gramophone_ for at least ten years hence the past tense in my earlier post.


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## flamencosketches

Rattle's 5th with the BPO seems to be quite well respected. Any fans of it here?


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## mbhaub

In the same way some people can't stand Karajan or Bernstein, I can't stand Rattle's work for the most part. He's too much of a micromanager. Too often the big picture is lost because he wants control of every minute detail even when it's not in the score. Believe me, I tried. I heard him when he was in LA doing lots of Mahler. The 7th was the worst ever, ruined in part by an incompetent tenor horn soloist. His 10th is good - but Kurt Sanderling is better, and so are Levine, Chailly...His Beethoven set with Vienna sure got rave reviews, but I gave it away. Couldn't stand the less-vibrato-is good sound. The worst thing he ever did was promote that stupidly wrong English horn glissando in the Mahler 3rd. Why anyone thought that is correct is mind boggling. And other bozos followed suit - it SIR Simon says it's right, then it must be. But it's not.


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## Becca

NLAdriaan said:


> Absolutely, just as the BPO and CBSO and [adored him] apparently now the LSO.


Also the Bavarian RSO.


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## perdido34

Knorf said:


> Ok, Rattle. Aside from his Bournemouth Mahler 10, which I really do like, and the CBSO Mahler 2, which I remember liking, little of what Rattle does is memorable to me. Except for his mouth agape, chewing and mugging at the orchestra. And his poodle hair. That I remember. If I ever had to play for him-and that would be an undeniable thrill-I'd have to mostly never look directly at him.


I saw Rattle conduct the Cleveland Orchestra in Mahler 10 years ago, I think after the Bournemouth recording had come out. It was an outstanding performance, preceding by a sparkling Prokofiev third concerto with John Lill. This was the only time Rattle conducted in Cleveland; apparently there was some issue, but nobody has said what...

Much more recently, Wigglesworth conducted the Cleveland Orchestra in Mahler 10; it was a memorable performance, and he had a much better orchestra than in either of his recordings.


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