# How "serious" is ballet music?



## Cnote11 (Jul 17, 2010)

"Tchaikovsky had a rather negative opinion of the "specialist" ballet music until he studied it in detail, being impressed by the nearly limitless variety of infectious melodies their scores contained."

I've heard numerous opinions about ballet music and their ranking in the classical echelon. Many people share a similar sentiment to Tchaikovsky prior to him entering the ballet realm. How serious do you take ballet music and how high do you rank it?


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## emiellucifuge (May 26, 2009)

It all depends.

Some of it is just lovely but nothing serious, i.e. Delibes and Massenet.

However, Stravinsky's ballets are probably the most important of his works, and Ravels best work is a ballet imo.


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## sah (Feb 28, 2012)

I am not a fan of ballet music, but I do like _The rite of Spring_, Falla's _El Amor Brujo_ or some parts of Prokofiev's _Romeo and Juliet_.


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## NightHawk (Nov 3, 2011)

I'd say that _Sleeping Beauty, Nutcracker, Firebird, Petrouchka, Daphnis and Chloe, and Romeo and Juliet (Prokofiev)_ are very important, but most specifically ballet scores are fairly lightweight. Of course, many great symphonic and even chamber works are choreographed, but that's a case of choreographer's looking for music of substance, such as Balanchine did with many of Stravinsky's works like Violin Concerto, Symphony in C and Symphony in Three Movements (and numerous others) - he used this new music to show the NYC Ballet displaying his new, modern ballet conceptions.


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

stravinksy - rite of spring
ravel - daphnis et chloe
prokofiev - romeo and juliet
falla - el amor brujo

is those works are not enough great i don't know what a great work is.
I like also Prokofiev's Cinderella and the Lord Bernes's Triumph of Neptune.
Oh, and Constant Lambert's Horoscope.


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## Badinerie (May 3, 2008)

How "serious" is ballet music?

Rotflmfao! :lol:


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## Cnote11 (Jul 17, 2010)

Elaborate, Badinerie.


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## Badinerie (May 3, 2008)

Its the tights...isnt it?


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## Cnote11 (Jul 17, 2010)

While I don't agree with people's opinions on ballet music -- I am a big fan of ballet music -- I don't think they dislike the music because of the tights.


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## Badinerie (May 3, 2008)

Good! The question just strikes me as very funny that ballet music isnt as serious as concert music? 
Ballet has the same range of tones from the totally profound to the totally vacuous that its related forms have. Ballet music is very often performed in stand alone concerts and along side standard rep. 
There is no practical difference in this regard between either performance modes. 
Indeed as has been mentioned above some of the greatest classical music of all was composed as dance music. Dance is at the forefront of contemporary composition with even small dance combo's having music written for them. 
There is a certain element amoung classical music devotees that see the Dance as "A bunch of tutu's and bulges stomping around the stage to trite and flowery tunes of no consequence" not I...I mean I dont go to the ballet...but I hold it in the same regard as The Concert and Opera


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## Cnote11 (Jul 17, 2010)

Well Badinerie, I certainly am happy to hear that.


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## StlukesguildOhio (Dec 25, 2006)

What on earth makes something "serious music"?


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## Cnote11 (Jul 17, 2010)

Well, I'm still waiting for the detractors to come in and give you that answer.


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## aleazk (Sep 30, 2011)

emiellucifuge said:


> It all depends.
> 
> Some of it is just lovely but nothing serious, i.e. Delibes and Massenet.
> 
> However, Stravinsky's ballets are probably the most important of his works, and Ravels best work is a ballet imo.


All of Ravel's pieces are masterpieces of equal value, imo  (of course the Bolero does not count)


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## Cnote11 (Jul 17, 2010)

Bolero does count. It was touched by Ravel's magical fingertips.


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## aleazk (Sep 30, 2011)

Cnote11 said:


> Bolero does count. It was touched by Ravel's magical fingertips.


haha, yes, indeed. What kind of Ravel taliban I am?


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## Huilunsoittaja (Apr 6, 2010)

Ballet music is DEAD serious.

Favorites (Not particular order, except for very first ones):

1. Prokofiev - Cinderella
2. Glazunov - Raymonda
3. Glazunov - The Seasons
4. Shostakovich - The Bolt
5. Tchaikovsky - Swan Lake
6. Gliere - The Red Poppy
7. Ravel - Daphnis et Chloe
8. De Falla - The 3 Cornered Hat
9. Shostakovich - The rest of the Ballet Suite reductions (ex. Limpid Stream)
10. Tchaikovsky - Sleeping Beauty
11. Tchaikovsky - The Nutcracker
12. Delibes - Sylvia
13. Prokofiev - Romeo & Juliet
14. Copland - Americana Trilogy, all 3 of them
15. Stravinsky - The Firebird
16. De Falla - El Amor Brujo
17. Prokofiev - Tale of the Stone Flower
18. Glazunov - Russes D'Amour
19. Prokofiev various "failed" ballets made into suites (ex. Scythian)
20. Respighi - La Boutique Fantastique

Numerous small excerpts (ex. Barber's Souvenirs, Arnold's Solitaire, Gottschalk's Cakewalk Suite, and many more)
Numerous balletic orchestral fantasies (Dukas' La Peri, Debussy Jeux, Ravel Bolero, and many more)

As you can see, I'm a dead serious fan. :tiphat:


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

It probably pretty much does start with Tchaikovsky, and gets quickly handed over to Stravinsky, Ravel, Debussy, Satie -- in direct association with Diaghilev and his Ballet Russes, all having left Russia for Paris.

There are the likes of Adolphe Adam's "Giselle" - the 'white' ballets with Tutus and froths of story premises and a fair amount of confection going on in the scores. I recalling seeing this, and the music is more than well-written and pleasant, but without the theater to go with it, does not hold just the ear as much as you might wish. 
Léo Delibes' "Coppélia" is a charming score, with some terrific character writing as well, I think you would have to be really attached to 'just listen to it' without the theater attached.

With all that tradition, especially strong in both Russia and France, the dance popular, and in the early 20th century, along with political waves and people moving about Europe, you get Diaghilev, one very remarkable entrepreneur, in Paris, Monte Carlo, London, etc. who is right an left commissioning new music from composers for the Ballet Russes:

Stravinsky: Le Oiseau de feu / Petrushka / Le Sacre du Printemps / Pulcinella / Les Noces

Debussy: Jeux -- a great score, very much in the orchestral repertoire.

Ravel: Daphnis et Chloe -- one of this composer's four great masterworks.

Satie ~ Parade -- another great score [sets , costumes designed by Picasso, Leonide Massine's radical choreography... wow]

Manuel de Falla ~ El Sombrero de Tres Picos

Sergei Prokofiev: Chout. (and others, imo, Chout of those commissioned, episodic, but a good through listen, the complete score.

One last commissioned by Diaghilev:
Sins of my Old Age, a collection of Rossini piano pieces, orchestrated by Ottorino Respighi.

... there are other Stravinsky ballets -- post-Diaghilev -- also strong and successful as full-length pieces:
Jeu de Cartes / Orpheus / Agon / Apollo

Ballet by nature is episodic. All the above, within that framework as functioning complete scores, 'hold their own' in concert.

The 'masterpiece' of wedding music to dance in a narrative, seems to be, by most consensus, Petruchka. 
Le Sacre seems to have yet met a choreography which holds even with what we hear of that remarkable piece.

The Ravel Daphnis et Chloe and Debussy Jeux are each masterpieces in their own right, and would suffer from being cut, i.e. best heard as a symphonic whole.

Two other strong full scores, their life as music much longer and greater than the ballet (as many a good ballet score is.)

Darius Milhaud: La création du monde: great score,

Poulenc's 'Aubaude' is episodic, i.e. a sequence of shorter movements, but is taut from beginning to end -- another great score. [His 'Les Biches' is usually presented or recorded as edited from its original full-length ballet.]

Hindemith's 'The Four Temperaments' is a four-movement work; 'as is' also works as a concert piece.

Copland's remarkable Appalachian Spring has duller segments in it, and they sound like filler. This great score [strongly recommend in its original registration for 13 instruments] is another best as presented in edited suite form.

The 1921 "Les mariés de la tour Eiffel," is a collaborative soufflé, with a libretto by Jean Cocteau and music by: Georges Auric; Arthur Honegger; Darius Milhaud; Francis Poulenc; Germaine Tailleferre.

A later collaborative soufflé, the1927 L'éventail de Jeanne: 
Maurice Ravel (Fanfare)
Pierre-Octave Ferroud (Marche)
Jacques Ibert (Valse)
Alexis Roland-Manuel (Canarie)
Marcel Delannoy (Bourrée)
Albert Roussel (Sarabande)
Darius Milhaud (Polka)
Francis Poulenc (Pastourelle)
Georges Auric (Rondeau)
Florent Schmitt (Finale: Kermesse-Valse)

!!! Which I am now a bit compelled to at least scan to see if it is like stripping your gears to listen all the way through


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## bassClef (Oct 29, 2006)

I've always loved the music (Prokofiev, Stravinsky etc) without seeing the choreography.
This is the first one that caught my attention from a dance perspective:




I especially like the scene from 47:30 - 52:52.


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## StevenOBrien (Jun 27, 2011)

StlukesguildOhio said:


> What on earth makes something "serious music"?


My definition would be anything that can bring out strong emotions in the listener and doesn't just merely satisfy their ears. There's nothing wrong with music being "un-serious" either. All that really matters is that you enjoy it.


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## jhar26 (Jul 6, 2008)

Cnote11 said:


> How serious do you take ballet music and how high do you rank it?


As serious as anything else. As for "how high do you rank it" that all depends on the work in question. And besides the, say, Ravel and Prokofiev ballets I for one also rate the Tchaikovsky, Delibes and Adam ballets highly because I love pretty tunes. I love the dancing as well. For a long time I thought that I would find it boring, but once I started watching some DVD's I realized how awesome it can be.


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## Huilunsoittaja (Apr 6, 2010)

bassClef said:


> I've always loved the music (Prokofiev, Stravinsky etc) without seeing the choreography.
> This is the first one that caught my attention from a dance perspective:
> 
> 
> ...


Oh darn, I forgot Khachaturian on my list of favorites.

To continue

21. Khachaturian - Spartacus
22. Khachaturian - Gayanne
23. Shostakovich - The Golden Age


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## Cnote11 (Jul 17, 2010)

Huh, where are all the people on here that I've seen lay into ballet music!? This thread is so one sided :lol:

Petrb, I know you don't really care for Tchaikovsky, but what do you think of his ballets?


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

Cnote11 said:


> Huh, where are all the people on here that I've seen lay into ballet music!? This thread is so one sided :lol:
> 
> Petrb, I know you don't really care for Tchaikovsky, but what do you think of his ballets?


I think that if he thought much of them he would have said so in his fairly lengthy post above!


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## Cnote11 (Jul 17, 2010)

That much is obvious, but I'm curious to his actual opinion on them, you know?


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## Sonata (Aug 7, 2010)

I personally don't care whether the music is "serious" or not. I'm all for music as high art, but I don't listen to feel cultured. I listen because I am very passionate about music in general.

It was a good time for me for this topic to come up, as I've just started exploring ballet music. I'm currently listening to the full Swan Lake ballet for the first time, and I must say that I really like it. There are several of the big "brassy" numbers that I don't care for, but there is a lot of good music in this ballet. I'll be checking out his Sleeping Beauty soon. I'm also interested in Delibes ballets, because I found the music in the "Lakme" opera to be very pretty.


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## Moira (Apr 1, 2012)

Sonata said:


> It was a good time for me for this topic to come up, as I've just started exploring ballet music. I'm currently listening to the full Swan Lake ballet for the first time, and I must say that I really like it. There are several of the big "brassy" numbers that I don't care for, but there is a lot of good music in this ballet. I'll be checking out his Sleeping Beauty soon.


Sleeping Beauty is my favourite ballet, and part of that is the music. The compositional/choreographical process was fantastic. Basically Petipa sketched the exact choreographical mood and timing to Tchaikovsky and he composed the music for each section perfectly. The marriage between the music and the choreography is perfect.

On Friday night I am seeing a ballet set to the movie music "De-Lovely" titled "Night and Day". I very, very seldom get movie soundtracks, but De-Lovely was one of these rare acquisitions. I loved the music. I should get myself the movie. The only negative comment in from the critics who have seen the ballet is that the bisexuality/homosexuality is overdone. That made half the boys I know buy tickets.


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## Badinerie (May 3, 2008)

Owww....get_ her!_ :lol:


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