# 20th century composers equal to the 19th century ones?



## Fabulin (Jun 10, 2019)

Between 19th and 20th century the population grew, as did transport, communication, and the sheer mass of music available for study and inspiration, including libraries and revivals. Conservatoires continued, and new ones were established.

So, logically, similarily talented composers as the fames of the 19th century should have populated the 20th century landscape.

And yet I feel this was not the case.

Can we find musical figures in the 20th century comparable to these notable composers?
I have some in mind (not always exactly equal  ), but I'm curious what do you think: how does the 20th century fare in comparison with the 19th.

_Edit: I did an edit of the thread so that it is more clear what I have in mind_

*19th century*--------------------- *20th century*
---border---
Weber (1786-1824) - ?
Beethoven (1770-1827) - ?
Schubert (1797-1828) ------------ Schnittke (1934-1998)

Bellini (1801-1835) ---------------- Herrmann (1911-1975)
Reicha (1770-1836) - ?

Mendelssohn (1809-1847) -------- Korngold (1897-1957)
Chopin (1810-1849) --------------- Bortkiewicz (1877-1952)

Schumann (1810-1856) - ?
Czerny (1791-1857) - ?
Glinka (1804-1857) - ?

Meyerbeer (1791-1864) ----------- Rózsa (1907-1995)
Rossini (1792-1868) --------------- R. Strauss (1864-1949)
Berlioz (1803-1869) --------------- Sibelius (1865-1957)
Bizet (1838-1875) ----------------- Khachaturian (1903-1978)
F. David (1810-1876) -------------- E. Bernstein (1922-2004)

Offenbach (1819-1880) ------------ Rota (1911-1979)
Vieuxtemps (1820-1881) - ?
Mussorgsky (1839-1881) ---------- Gliere (1875-1956)
Raff (1822-1882) ------------------- Hindemith (1896-1964)
E. Mayer (1812-1883) - ?
Wagner (1813-1883) -------------- Schoenberg (1874-1951)
Liszt (1811-1886) ------------------ Rachmaninoff (1873-1943) 
Alkan (1813-1888) - ?
Bottesini (1822-1889) - ?

Lachner (1803-1890) - ?
Franck (1822-1890) ----------------- Myaskovsky (1881-1950)
Delibes (1936-1891) - ?
Lalo (1823-1892) -------------------- Messiaen (1908-1992)
Gounod (1818-1893) ---------------- Britten (1913-1976)
Tchaikovsky (1840-1893) ----------- Shostakovich (1906-1975)
Brückner (1824-1896) -------------- Bax (1882-1953)
Brahms (1833-1897) ---------------- Prokofiev (1891-1953)
J. Strauss II (1825-1899) ----------- Steiner (1888-1971)

Verdi (1813-1901) ------------------- Goldsmith (1929-2004)
Wolf (1860-1903) - ?
Dvorak (1841-1904) ----------------- Vaughan Williams (1872-1958)
Grieg (1843-1907) ------------------- Holst (1874-1934)
Rimsky (1844-1908) ----------------- Glazunov (1865-1936)

Mahler (1860-1911) ----------------- Stravinsky (1882-1971)
Scriabin (1871-1915) ---------------- Szymanowski (1882-1937)
Reger (1873-1916) ------------------ Bartok (1881-1945)
Debussy (1862-1918) --------------- Ravel (1875-1937)

Saint-Saens (1835-1921) ----------- Villa-Lobos (1887-1954)
Faure (1845-1924) ------------------ Poulenc (1899-1963)
Puccini (1858-1924) ----------------- A. Newman (1901-1970)
Moszkowski (1854-1925) - ?

D'Indy (1851-1931) ----------------- Ives (1874-1954)
Elgar (1857-1934) ------------------- C. Scott (1879-1970)
---border---

I picked the best comparable 20th century artist that came to my mind for each of the 19th century composers listed. In half of the cases they are not equal, and then there are still gaps.

Can you fill the blank spaces? Or provide better composers for _Team 20th Century_?


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## Littlephrase (Nov 28, 2018)

Could you please clarify what you mean by “paired comparisons” and “fill in the spaces”? Once that’s cleared up, a list of 20th century greats could easily be provided. 

(Also, really? Lalo, D’Indy, Offenbach, Meyerbeer, Raff, Bellini, David, Alkan, Strauss II? There are more than enough 20th century composers who equal and/or surpass these guys.)


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## Portamento (Dec 8, 2016)

The classical music industry fetishizes the old. We'll see in a century who stands to gain, but Beethoven, Brahms, and Schubert will likely not be dethroned. (Surely Ligeti, Messiaen, or Schnittke are 'greater' than half the composers you list?)


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## Texas Chain Saw Mazurka (Nov 1, 2009)

Are there any 19th century composers to equal Bach and Mozart?


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## Fabulin (Jun 10, 2019)

Texas Chain Saw Mazurka said:


> Are there any 19th century composers to equal Bach and Mozart?


Bach is team 17th century
Mozart is team 18th century

And yes, there is someone:

His name is Beethoven.


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## Blancrocher (Jul 6, 2013)

I'll put Beethoven head-to-head with Stravinsky. Both were the most famous living composers during at least part of their lifetimes, experimented successfully with both older and contemporary compositional techniques, and had careers that are traditionally separated into 3 parts. 

My only concern here is in expending such a significant 20th-century composer in a fruitless contest.


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## Littlephrase (Nov 28, 2018)

There are many, many worthy composers you’ve yet to list, but what about Bartók? He could duke it out with very best.


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## Blancrocher (Jul 6, 2013)

I like the matching of Tchaikovsky and Shostakovich in the op. The composers have always been linked in my own mind: amazing melodists, addicted to programs, and frequently unfairly derided as somehow "unserious." As an aside, I've got a good cd with Argerich, Kremer, and Maisky doing their piano trios. 

I'm giving Shosty the victory here--he's always been at the center of things for me.


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## Fabulin (Jun 10, 2019)

Littlephrase1913 said:


> There are many, many worthy composers you've yet to list, but what about Bartók? He could duke it out with very best.


I paired him with Reger.
Cyril Scott is now up against Elgar.

I'll be updating the list based on suggestions. I'm very curious whether in the end I will gain a more clear panorama of this century to century comparison.



Blancrocher said:


> I like the matching of Tchaikovsky and Shostakovich in the op. The composers have always been linked in my own mind: amazing melodists, addicted to programs, and frequently unfairly derided as somehow "unserious."


My two favourites! Similar in many ways indeed.


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## Littlephrase (Nov 28, 2018)

Fabulin said:


> I paired him with Reger.
> Cyril Scott is now up against Elgar.
> 
> I'll be updating the list based on suggestions. I'm very curious whether in the end I will gain a more clear panorama of this century to century comparison.
> ...


Yeah, but I just can't see how Reger links with Bartok at all. Also, I'd put Mahler with Berg, not Stravinsky.


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## Fabulin (Jun 10, 2019)

Littlephrase1913 said:


> Yeah, but I just can't see how Reger links with Bartok at all. Also, I'd put Mahler with Berg, not Stravinsky.


Both were cutting edge innovators of orchestration and harmony. Impressed me in a similar way.

Berg vs Mahler on the other hand? I don't see how is Berg not crushed under all those weighty symphonies of M.


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## Blancrocher (Jul 6, 2013)

Scriabin and Szymanowski? Faure and Poulenc?


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## Littlephrase (Nov 28, 2018)

Fabulin said:


> Both were cutting edge innovators of orchestration and harmony. Impressed me in a similar way.
> 
> Berg vs Mahler on the other hand? I don't see how is Berg not crushed under all those weighty symphonies of M.


1. Reger was an extremely impressive contrapuntalist, yes, but... he's simply a lesser composer than Bartók, who is one of the titans of the century along with Stravinsky, Schoenberg, Shostakovich and a few others.

2. Berg is a direct heir to Mahler, despite never writing a symphony. Stravinsky, on the other hand, shares almost nothing in common with Mahler.


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## Fabulin (Jun 10, 2019)

Blancrocher said:


> Scriabin and Szymanowski? Faure and Poulenc?


Fair enough. Added.



Littlephrase1913 said:


> 1. Reger was an extremely impressive contrapuntalist, yes, but... he's simply a lesser composer than Bartók, who is one of the titans of the century along with Stravinsky, Schoenberg, Shostakovich and a few others.
> 
> 2. Berg is a direct heir to Mahler, despite never writing a symphony. Stravinsky, on the other hand, shares almost nothing in common with Mahler.


Ad. 1 I disagree about Reger being lesser than Bartok. But if you think that it's a waste of a good Bartok, you can always compare him to someone more worthy in your view.

Ad. 2 Both points taken. But Berg is a lesser heir of a greater sire in that case. If I paired him with Mahler, it would only prove my initial thesis against the 20th century. Stravinsky on the other hand is an equally impressive composer as Mahler, albeit in different genres, and likewise a gamechanger, so is similar in one aspect. I considered pairing Stravinsky with Wagner as well. What do you think about that? And what do you think of Wagner vs Schoenberg btw.?


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## Swosh (Feb 25, 2018)

I would have put Moszkowski beside Chopin, even thought he's mostly 19th century.


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## Fabulin (Jun 10, 2019)

Swosh said:


> I would have put Moszkowski beside Chopin, even thought he's mostly 19th century.


I added Moszkowski to the 19th century in that case.


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## Blancrocher (Jul 6, 2013)

Wolf and Britten? Vieuxtemps and Enescu? Still not sure where Ligeti fits into this.


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## Fabulin (Jun 10, 2019)

Blancrocher said:


> Wolf and Britten? Vieuxtemps and Enescu? Still not sure where Ligeti fits into this.


Don't you think that Britten was a bit too prolific for Wolf? Perhaps he would be more comparable to Gounod?
Vieuxtemps is not a composer I know well. What can you tell me about his similarity to Enescu?
I am not sure what to do with Ligeti either.


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## Blancrocher (Jul 6, 2013)

Fabulin said:


> Don't you think that Britten was a bit too prolific for Wolf?
> Vieuxtemps is not a composer I know well. What can you tell me about his similarity to Enescu?
> I am not sure what to do with Ligeti either.


Britten is too prolific, but he's too significant to leave out of the reckoning, imo--maybe a good match for Schubert given the divide between instrumental and vocal works (though then there'd be a Schnittke problem). The latter two seemed comparable simply because they were virtuoso violinist/composers.


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## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

19th Century talent is not comparable/translatable to 20th Century talent. I'd like to see what team 21st century consists of.


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## Fabulin (Jun 10, 2019)

Phil loves classical said:


> 19th Century talent is not comparable/translatable to 20th Century talent.
> I'd like to see what team 21st century consists of.


Ad. 1 Why not?
Ad. 2 If it is not comparable to the 20th century, how is the 21st any better? Shouldn't it be even less comparable?

By the 20th year of the 20th century there were Mahler symphonies from 5th onward, Gurre-Lieder, Rite of Sping, Firebird & The Planets for a start.

Now... what do we have in _this_ century so far that is either new and great, or conservative, but focused on the highest quality?


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## musicrom (Dec 29, 2013)

Hmm, here's what I came up with, but this was hard. Wanted to make more comparisons, but couldn't think of any more good ones.

Berlioz --> Schnittke
Beethoven --> Mahler
Hummel --> Rachmaninoff
Sor --> Rodrigo
Paganini --> Nancarrow
Rossini --> Bernstein
Schubert --> Ravel
Mendelssohn --> Prokofiev
Chopin --> Scriabin
Schumann --> Nielsen
Liszt --> Hindemith
Wagner --> Berg
Franck --> Reger

EDIT: Maybe I misunderstood the meaning of this thread, but my take was that we're trying to find 20th century composers that are similar to 19th century composers in some way. Let me know if this is not what you meant!


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

Fabulin said:


> Between 19th and 20th century the population grew, as did transport, communication, and the sheer mass of music available for study and inspiration, including libraries and revivals. Conservatoires continued, and new ones were established.
> 
> So, logically, similarily talented composers as the fames of the 19th century should have populated the 20th century landscape.
> 
> And yet I feel this was not the case.


The task of finding composers from one period who are comparable with composers from another period is still ambiguous to me. Is it similarity of music, similarity of standing, similarity in life circumstances ... similarity in "greatness" even? I'm afraid the suggested pairings baffle me even more.

And I'm not sure what any of these tell us. Similarity of standing may be the only one possible. The two periods were very different for music. In the 19th century there was still a very evident tradition with only the beginning of the splitting up into a wide variety of styles and aesthetics that typified the 20th century - giving us the fertile diversification that was one of the absolute glories of that century. Still, for me, the (say) ten greatest composers of the 20th century are easily the equals (the very different equals) of the ten greatest from the 19th century, fertile though that century was. But I have no idea how you might pair them off individually. They are different. (I would have the same trouble pairing off 18th and 19th century composers.)


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

Barber? Copland? Weinberg? Pärt?


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## MarkW (Feb 16, 2015)

I don't know what trying to pair them tells us, but if you made a list of the 19th century's greatest composers, and one of those of the twentieth century, numbers would probably favor the twentieth.


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## Orfeo (Nov 14, 2013)

You said:
Brückner (1824-1896) -------------- Bax (1882-1953)?
Rimsky (1844-1908) ----------------- Glazunov (1865-1936)?
Mussorgsky (1839-1881) ---------- Gliere (1875-1956)?

I would say:
Brückner (1824-1896) -------------- Schmidt (1874-1939)
Delius (1862-1934) -------------- Bax (1882-1953)
Tchaikovsky (1840-1893) ----------------- Glazunov (1865-1936)
Glazunov (1865-1936) ---------- Gliere (1875-1956)


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## Littlephrase (Nov 28, 2018)

Orfeo said:


> You said:
> Brückner (1824-1896) -------------- Bax (1882-1953)?
> Rimsky (1844-1908) ----------------- Glazunov (1865-1936)?
> Mussorgsky (1839-1881) ---------- Gliere (1875-1956)?
> ...


And perhaps pair Mussorgsky with Janacek.


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## science (Oct 14, 2010)

Who is the 19th-century Cage, Babbitt, Boulez, Nono, Stockhausen, Xenakis, Reich, Pärt, Murail, or Takemitsu?


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## science (Oct 14, 2010)

More to the point, I'm not sure that a high percentage of musical "genius" in the 20th century was devoted to composition. 

Unless Louis Armstrong, Charlie Parker, Miles Davis, John Coltrane, Sam Philips, Jimmy Hendrix, Ray Charles, Nusrat Fateh Ali Khan, Eddie Vedder, Trent Reznor, and Rick Rubin count as composers.... 

For many people, high culture in the the 20th century means nostalgia for the pre-WWI aristocracy and their culture. The idolization of the Beethoven to Mahler trajectory in separable from that nostalgia. 

But considering how few people are really moved by that nostalgia - far more people, in fact, explicitly reject it - it is surprising that in the 20th century the tradition had as many "geniuses" in the old romantic sense as it did.


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## Fabulin (Jun 10, 2019)

science said:


> More to the point, I'm not sure that a high percentage of musical "genius" in the 20th century was devoted to composition.
> 
> But considering how few people are really moved by that nostalgia - far more people, in fact, explicitly reject it - it is surprising that in the 20th century the tradition had as many "geniuses" in the old romantic sense as it did.


Ad. 1 That's an interesting thought. I wonder whether some people who could have become composers just thought that there was more than enough good music in the field anyway, and the opportunities to explore it answered all their needs.

Ad. 2 I think it's just natural, psychologically timeless music that people will naturally be drawn to no matter the generation they are born in. I don't like the term "romantic" at all. To me it's just the logical culmination of music development that with more or less tweaks continues till today.


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