# Where is the soul of Jean Sibelius



## Aramis (Mar 1, 2009)

24:56-25:33

Where is the soul from which it poured? Could it vanish and not exist anymore? It wouldn't be right but let me tell you, there are those crazy thing called torches and when they burn you can see the burning material turning into smoke and this smoke flies away with wind and one could say that it vanished and doesn't exist anymore from the moment when the smoke gets dispersed by wind and one can't see it anymore and yet we all know that this burning matery exists and will exist forever even though it changed and in time perhaps became part of something else or splitted but it is still the same matery which burned in the torch and isn't it possible that some ancient hero so magnificent and great that you don't even dare to imagine him was walking through the dark woods thousands of years ago and was lighting his way with a torch ashes from which turned into something that you set your foot on today without realizing where it came from and that this glorious man was looking at this matery burning while his own thoughts and feelings burned as well? And why wouldn't his soul be just like this matery and exist forever in diffrent ways? Why wouldn't same thing happen with soul of Sibelius?


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## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

Aramis said:


> 24:56-25:33
> 
> Where is the soul from which it poured? Could it vanish and not exist anymore? It wouldn't be right but let me tell you, there are those crazy thing called torches and when they burn you can see the burning material turning into smoke and this smoke flies away with wind and one could say that it vanished and doesn't exist anymore from the moment when the smoke gets dispersed by wind and one can't see it anymore and yet we all know that this burning matery exists and will exist forever even though it changed and in time perhaps became part of something else or splitted but it is still the same matery which burned in the torch and isn't it possible that some ancient hero so magnificent and great that you don't even dare to imagine him was walking through the dark woods thousands of years ago and was lighting his way with a torch ashes from which turned into something that you set your foot on today without realizing where it came from and that this glorious man was looking at this matery burning while his own thoughts and feelings burned as well? And why wouldn't his soul be just like this matery and exist forever in diffrent ways? Why wouldn't same thing happen with soul of Sibelius?


Dunno; was he cremated?

[There damn it. I have gone inane... nope, it doesn't help.]


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## Tapkaara (Apr 18, 2006)

Sibelius was not cremated. His body was placed in a coffin and he is buried in the garden of Ainola, his country estate.


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## DavidMahler (Dec 28, 2009)

Everything may be left behind in his music. Perhaps that's why he laid off composition in his later years.... he had little left to say.


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## violadude (May 2, 2011)

Aramis said:


> 24:56-25:33
> 
> Where is the soul from which it poured? Could it vanish and not exist anymore? It wouldn't be right but let me tell you, there are those crazy thing called torches and when they burn you can see the burning material turning into smoke and this smoke flies away with wind and one could say that it vanished and doesn't exist anymore from the moment when the smoke gets dispersed by wind and one can't see it anymore and yet we all know that this burning matery exists and will exist forever even though it changed and in time perhaps became part of something else or splitted but it is still the same matery which burned in the torch and isn't it possible that some ancient hero so magnificent and great that you don't even dare to imagine him was walking through the dark woods thousands of years ago and was lighting his way with a torch ashes from which turned into something that you set your foot on today without realizing where it came from and that this glorious man was looking at this matery burning while his own thoughts and feelings burned as well? And why wouldn't his soul be just like this matery and exist forever in diffrent ways? Why wouldn't same thing happen with soul of Sibelius?


There should be a poetry section of this forum. This could be in that section rather than the discussion section.


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## kv466 (May 18, 2011)

I looked out my window at the lightning and could swear I saw this:










He may be roaming my backyard.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

^^ :lol:...he had a double back in the 1950's on TV (Uncle Fester, boom-tish!)...


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## Aramis (Mar 1, 2009)

violadude said:


> There should be a poetry section of this forum. This could be in that section rather than the discussion section.


It's not poetry, only expression of problem which troubles me very much.


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## violadude (May 2, 2011)

Aramis said:


> It's not poetry, only expression of problem which troubles me very much.


What is that problem?


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## Aramis (Mar 1, 2009)

violadude said:


> What is that problem?


It is the problem of question where is the soul of Jean Sibelius.


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## clavichorder (May 2, 2011)

Is there a soul? Define the soul.


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## violadude (May 2, 2011)

Aramis said:


> It is the problem of question where is the soul of Jean Sibelius.


And what about the current absence of Sibelius' soul troubles you?


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## Aramis (Mar 1, 2009)

violadude said:


> And what about the current absence of Sibelius' soul troubles you?


It troubles me that such souls are so rare and if they would simply cease to exist it would be great loss and very unjust and such revelation would be very painful especially if you're dealing with souless people day after day and the only relief you can count on you find in music: then you ask yourself what has happened to this rare gem from which this music poured.



> Define the soul


Very fine idea, when someone tells you that his head hurts do you reply "define your head" too?


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## clavichorder (May 2, 2011)

This is beginning to make more sense, but its still quite quirky. 

What makes you single out Sibelius and not any other highly soulful musician? Is it just an example? Are you wondering why there seems to be such an absence of great music in this time? 

I don't mean to be rude or saying this in jest(too much, maybe a little, just being honest), but am I understanding this correctly; that your extraordinary soul is lonely and craves the company of the soul of Sibelius? You are not going to find Sibelius's soul through a better medium than his music, unless you believe he can communicate to you in your dreams. If you listen to his music enough and have it going in your head while you are falling asleep, that's your best bet(I mean that bit sincerely). WF Bach's soul spoke to me in a sense, when he handed me a fish.


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## Polednice (Sep 13, 2009)

Clavi, Clavi, Clavi, you're going about this all wrong. The trick with Aramis is just to not take anything he says seriously!


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## clavichorder (May 2, 2011)

Polednice said:


> Clavi, Clavi, Clavi, you're going about this all wrong. The trick with Aramis is just to not take anything he says seriously!


I was going to try understand for once


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## GoneBaroque (Jun 16, 2011)

There is a theory which states that matter cannot be destroyed, that it only changes form. While there is no description of what the soul is; the immortal soul of Sibelius lives on in his music and in the hearts of those who remember him and love his works.

The closing lines of Richard LLewellyn's great novel "How Green Was My Valley" reads in part "But you have gone now, all of you, that were so beautiful when you were quick with life. Yet you are not gone, for you are still a living truth within my mind. So how are you dead...when you live with me as surely as I live myself?...No, and I will stand to say no, and no again. ... Is he dead? For if he is, then I am dead, and we are dead, and all of sense a mockery."


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## Aramis (Mar 1, 2009)

clavichorder said:


> What makes you single out Sibelius and not any other highly soulful musician? Is it just an example?


More of a shorthand.



> that your extraordinary soul is lonely and craves the company of the soul of Sibelius?


No, I do not long so much for the "company" of his soul but for the assurance that noble and elevated beings are eternal and, as a shorthand, I give the example of being which gave birth to the violin concerto of Sibelius and which we don't need to call any other way than simply "Sibelius", referring to essence of his being (although this one particular being alone, not the ideas and powers which found their reflections in it).


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## clavichorder (May 2, 2011)

This still seems like poetry to me, rather abstract.


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## Polednice (Sep 13, 2009)

I'm sorry, Aramis, but every essence of Jean Sibelius is gone. Nowhere to be found. The only life left behind is in his rotting flesh.


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## Tapkaara (Apr 18, 2006)

You can certainly feel his soul at Ainola!


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## Aramis (Mar 1, 2009)

Polednice said:


> I'm sorry, Aramis, but every essence of Jean Sibelius is gone. Nowhere to be found. The only life left behind is in his rotting flesh.


That, sir, is your opinion on this matter and I can respect that.


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## jdavid (Oct 4, 2011)

Aramis said:


> Where is the soul from which it poured?


 His body took the Express Swan to Tuonela:

"In Finnish mythology Tuonela was the land of dead. It was an underground home or city for all the dead people, not only the good or the bad ones. It was a dark and lifeless place, where everybody slept forever. Still a brave shaman could travel to Tuonela in trance to ask for the forefathers' guidance. To travel to Tuonela, the soul had to cross the dark river of Tuonela. If he had a proper reason, then a boat would come to take him over. Many times a shaman's soul had to trick the guards of Tuonela into believing that he was actually dead." - wikipedia

I can't say where his soul is, I just love what was left behind.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

Another nerdy response.

Sibelius' "soul" could be his legacy?

THIS L.A. Times article gives ample food for thought.

Sibelius was the grand-daddy of the USA minimalists -



> ...As early as the 1970s, Sibelius could be seen -- if anyone cared to look -- as *one of the unsung prophets of Minimalism*. The repetitive string figurations and pedal-points that undergird many of his orchestral works clearly point the way to the early music of *John Adams*...Sibelius also infiltrated *Philip Glass*...


...maybe of Ligeti as well -



> ...Further, Sibelius' still, tremulous wind-scapes can be seen as a *precedent for the drifting clusters of Ligeti*, and the wildly surging chromatic storms he churns up in "Tapiola" and the prelude to "The Tempest" can amaze even the most shock-proof new-music audiences...


& as the "father" of Modern Finnish classical music, with these younger musicians at their head -



> ...On another front, although Sibelius has always been seen as the decisive starting point for Finnish music, few could have predicted how extensively the seeds that he planted would spread...The latest has taken over a good portion of today's new-music scene -- *Kaija Saariaho, Jouni Kaipainen, Magnus Lindberg, Salonen *himself...


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

It's in his music.
He poured his soul into his music like an old person pours milk into his porridge.

...I was never good at poetry.


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## Tapkaara (Apr 18, 2006)

Sid James said:


> Another nerdy response.
> 
> Sibelius' "soul" could be his legacy?
> 
> ...


Fascinating quotes. I especially love the one about the "prophet of minimalism." How true!!


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## tdc (Jan 17, 2011)

I 'liked' Aramis post. At first I thought he was claiming Sibelius' music ' had no soul', but now that I properly understand the meaning here - nice post.


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## clavichorder (May 2, 2011)

^^That's what I thought at first as well. But it was really a very flattering statement about Sibelius, very sweet of Aramis.


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## Tapkaara (Apr 18, 2006)

Speaking of Sibelius and souls, I am very impressed with the premise of this thread. Quite honestly, I myself have never really wondered where Sibelius's soul is, but I do certainly believe that his soul was special among composers.

Practically nothing in Sibelius's output seems forced or fake. There is such sincerity in just about everthing he wrote, even in his wrongfully maligned piano works.

He was one of music's great individualists. Truly a great musical mind...and perhaps soul, as well.


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## Vaneyes (May 11, 2010)

I don't know.


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## samurai (Apr 22, 2011)

Wherever it is, I hope it's in a good place!


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## SiegendesLicht (Mar 4, 2012)

Nice thread. Well, I think, whatever the idea of heaven in the Finnish mythology is, he must be there now. At least I'm pretty sure my favorite guy is in Valhalla now, hunting, feasting and drinking good German beer with his ancestors. And composing of course! 

Don't take this post seriously.


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## bigshot (Nov 22, 2011)

I keep the soul of Jean Sibelius in my freezer. He likes it there.


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## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

bigshot said:


> I keep the soul of Jean Sibelius in my freezer. He likes it there.


Rig it so your friends hear the start of the 2nd Symphony when you open the door... maybe a waft of spruce odor... _then_ tell them that Sibelius' soul is camping in there. I like it.


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

Probably still in that big rehab in the sky, having drank himself to death the rest of his life after having quit composing.

I know this is an open forum, and have no disrespect for this retro-conservative great composer.

But might there not be a sector of the forum reserved for the gobbledy-**** adolescent gush of sentimental pourings forth around a composer, since one can only say this question is certainly not about the composer, or his music, really?

O.K. Never Mind.

I wish to inform this person, in all sincerity, that many people leave the very best part of themselves still with us, after their death, in the work in which they invested also the very best part of their self.

Anytime anyone is listening to Sibelius, or playing Sibelius, he is present, alive, and speaking to us. 

It gets more profound the longer the difference between when they made their work and when we are playing and listening to it.

Opera director Peter Sellars put it very well. Music and art from long before our time is when our ancestors are still speaking directly to us.


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## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

PetrB said:


> Probably still in that big rehab in the sky, having drank himself to death the rest of his life after having quit composing.
> 
> I know this is an open forum, and have no disrespect for this retro-conservative great composer.
> 
> But might there not be a sector of the forum reserved for the gobbledy-**** adolescent gush of sentimental pourings forth around a composer, since one can only say this question is certainly not about the composer, or his music, really?


Hey, wait a minute... You are really Ayn Rand!


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## clavichorder (May 2, 2011)

PetrB said:


> Probably still in that big rehab in the sky, having drank himself to death the rest of his life after having quit composing.
> 
> I know this is an open forum, and have no disrespect for this retro-conservative great composer.
> 
> But might there not be a sector of the forum reserved for the gobbledy-**** adolescent gush of sentimental pourings forth around a composer, since one can only say this question is certainly not about the composer, or his music, really?


That's Aramis. He's not an actively contributing member of this forum anymore, but he may come storming back in the future. Usually in this way, he's more prolific in the community forum, and his influence is felt to this day.


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## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

PetrB said:


> Probably still in that big rehab in the sky, having drank himself to death the rest of his life after having quit composing.
> 
> I know this is an open forum, and have no disrespect for this retro-conservative great composer.


Yeah, right. You are really convincing there, guy.


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

O.K. Never Mind.

I wish to inform this person, in all sincerity, that many people leave the very best part of themselves still with us, after their death, in the work in which they invested also the very best part of their self.

Anytime anyone is listening to Sibelius, or playing Sibelius, he is present, alive, and speaking to us. 

It gets more profound the longer the difference between when they made their work and when we are playing and listening to it.

Opera director Peter Sellars put it very well. Music and art from long before our time is when our ancestors are still speaking directly to us.


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## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

/\ Yeah, I like it too,_ violadude _. Always good when the nutcases open up early in their TC careers. We cautious dudes can avoid the tripwires now.


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

Hilltroll72 said:


> Hey, wait a minute... You are really Ayn Rand!


No, I don't go in for power-trip seducing my younger students, for starters ;-)


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## science (Oct 14, 2010)

Sibelius broke his soul into a thousand pieces, and someday he will return to reassemble them and take over the world. Sadly, I am one of those pieces.


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

Aramis said:


> 24:56-25:33
> 
> Where is the soul from which it poured? Could it vanish and not exist anymore? It wouldn't be right but let me tell you, there are those crazy thing called torches and when they burn you can see the burning material turning into smoke and this smoke flies away with wind and one could say that it vanished and doesn't exist anymore from the moment when the smoke gets dispersed by wind and one can't see it anymore and yet we all know that this burning matery exists and will exist forever even though it changed and in time perhaps became part of something else or splitted but it is still the same matery which burned in the torch and isn't it possible that some ancient hero so magnificent and great that you don't even dare to imagine him was walking through the dark woods thousands of years ago and was lighting his way with a torch ashes from which turned into something that you set your foot on today without realizing where it came from and that this glorious man was looking at this matery burning while his own thoughts and feelings burned as well? And why wouldn't his soul be just like this matery and exist forever in diffrent ways? Why wouldn't same thing happen with soul of Sibelius?


Were you smashed when you wrote this and what is matery ?


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

clavichorder said:


> That's Aramis. He's not an actively contributing member of this forum anymore, but he may come storming back in the future. Usually in this way, he's more prolific in the community forum, and his influence is felt to this day.


It's still nonsense. what is this clavichorder, hero worship . It doesn't become you.


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

GoneBaroque said:


> There is a theory which states that matter cannot be destroyed, that it only changes form. While there is no description of what the soul is; the immortal soul of Sibelius lives on in his music and in the hearts of those who remember him and love his works.
> 
> The closing lines of Richard LLewellyn's great novel "How Green Was My Valley" reads in part "But you have gone now, all of you, that were so beautiful when you were quick with life. Yet you are not gone, for you are still a living truth within my mind. So how are you dead...when you live with me as surely as I live myself?...No, and I will stand to say no, and no again. ... Is he dead? For if he is, then I am dead, and we are dead, and all of sense a mockery."


God bless us all!


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

Just when things seemed to have gone quiet and boring this pile of preposterous rubbish resurfaces---what extraordinary fun !!!


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## Llyranor (Dec 20, 2010)

Well, as it turns out, that section is also my favorite of his VC's second movement! It's so wonderful! To me, it feels like his soul is crying out or something.


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## clavichorder (May 2, 2011)

moody said:


> It's still nonsense. what is this clavichorder, hero worship . It doesn't become you.


Not in the least. Aramis and I were often at odds with each other, and he annoyed the hell out of me at times. Other times he was funny(often way over the top), I can't really make up my mind, but there's no denying he "stormed up" the forum and left his mark, good or bad.

So no, not hero worship. And I restrained myself from putting the ...(seems to indicate "for better or worse" in that context) after "to this day" for the sake of politics, but I've officially blown my cover. Oh well, Aramis won't take it personally if he ever sees this.

Actually, I should have put the ...


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## Roberto (Jul 17, 2010)

I see the problem differently. Sibelius's soul, like those of other great artists, is encapsulated magnificently and precisely in his music. That is exactly where it is, and from there that soul 'speaks' to many other people.

The problem is: where is _your_ soul, and where is mine? We who cannot create such things!


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## Roberto (Jul 17, 2010)

science said:


> Sibelius broke his soul into a thousand pieces, and someday he will return to reassemble them and take over the world. Sadly, I am one of those pieces.


Do you know Kyung Wha Chung???


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## StevenOBrien (Jun 27, 2011)

I've found it!


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## eorrific (May 14, 2011)

StevenOBrien said:


> I've found it!


WHAalsdkfjopcnwoeirjoisdfwhatintheworldjasldkfjaoincw!!!!


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## Arsakes (Feb 20, 2012)

Was he a ginger?! jk lol


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## Arsakes (Feb 20, 2012)

StevenOBrien said:


> I've found it!


I see it myself in a store, a month ago. It's Outrageous


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## Swampcabbage (May 26, 2012)

I find it tiring when people wax poetic, primarily because the elements that hold poetry together are usually not present in such outpourings. Without form, all you're pouring is a writhing mush of angsty teenage romanticism- a body without a skeleton. It's about as pleasant as seeing a grown man bawling in the supermarket over the price of a tomato.

Anyway, the rationalist in me is compelled to inform you that what you refer to as the 'soul' is, in fact, a collection of neural states. 

Neurons die - 'Soul' goes kaput.


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## Arsakes (Feb 20, 2012)

Swampcabbage said:


> I find it tiring when people wax poetic, primarily because the elements that hold poetry together are usually not present in such outpourings. Without form, all you're pouring is a writhing mush of angsty teenage romanticism- a body without a skeleton. It's about as pleasant as seeing a grown man bawling in the supermarket over the price of a tomato.
> 
> Anyway, the rationalist in me is compelled to inform you that what you refer to as the 'soul' is, in fact, a collection of neural states.
> 
> Neurons die - 'Soul' goes kaput.


Soon or late I should say my philosophical attitude.

Romanticism > Rationalism
Rationalism surrendered to Naturalism. Romanticism is still moving on.
I'm somewhat in agreement with Hegel's bold statement that the best philosophy and art is German Romanticism. 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_Romanticism

Even Plato and Schopenhauer can beat scientologists easily (in the matter of soul).

Nah, you can't convince us that specific 20th century composers and styles are better than Romantic Masters. 
Your last line is insulting, it cannot be written by a Classic Music lover. You better listen to DJ and Heavy Metal which are good for your 'Neurons'.


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## Huilunsoittaja (Apr 6, 2010)

This is where the soul of Sibelius is:








:tiphat:


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## Roberto (Jul 17, 2010)

Arsakes said:


> Soon or late I should say my philosophical attitude.
> 
> Romanticism > Rationalism
> Rationalism surrendered to Naturalism. Romanticism is still moving on.
> ...


I would edit Hegel's claim: German Romanticism is the most ambitious art in musical terms; it is also (quite possibly) the most emotionally loaded, or weighted. That doesn't make it the best, however.


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## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

Roberto said:


> I would edit Hegel's claim: German Romanticism is the most ambitious art in musical terms; it is also (quite possibly) the most emotionally loaded, or weighted. That doesn't make it the best, however.


Regarding music - and maybe everything else - all encountered instances of "best" should be replaced with 'schmest'.


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