# John Rutter



## Tristan

I'm sure most people here see Rutter as a bunch of cheesy fluff (and some of it is, don't get me wrong), but I'm a fan of Rutter and my grandmother has sung a lot of his music in her choral group and has met him in person.

His _Magnificat_, _Gloria_, and _Requiem_ are my favorites, but I also like some of his smaller pieces like "Shepherd's Pipe Carol" and "King Jesus Hath a Garden".

Anyone like any of the music of Rutter? Have any recommendations?


----------



## Celloman

I'd also recommend the "Donkey Carol" and "Star Carol".
Also, the _Petite Suite_ and _Mass of the Children_ are nice. I wouldn't put them on the level of Beethoven's 5th, but still, they're great for a rainy day.

There is a place in the world for cheesy fluff, in my opinion. Just not too much of it!


----------



## mmsbls

I haven't heard too much of Rutter, but I love his Requiem. I will certainly listen to some of the suggestions here.


----------



## Neo Romanza

Tristan said:


> Anyone like any of the music of Rutter? Have any recommendations?


I recommend to stop listening to Rutter. Problem solved.


----------



## rborganist

I disagree with Neo Romanza; John Rutter seems to have gotten past the habit he had for a while of having all his introductions sound alike; the music itself didn't, just the introductions. Of his carols, my favorite is the Candlelight Carol, though I like quite a bit of his music. Listen to "For the Beauty of the Earth" (I directed that this past summer in the version for women's voices). I do like the Requiem. My chief impression of Rutter is that he knows how to write a memorable and singable melody, and that is no mean feat, and if anyone thinks that is old hat, so be it!


----------



## hreichgott

I like Rutter in small doses. He fills his niche better than, say, Albrecht and Althouse.... 
My favorite by him is the Christmas carol arrangement "Tomorrow shall be my dancing day"


----------



## Tristan

^Yes, love that you mentioned that! His arrangement of "Tomorrow Shall Be My Dancing Day" is beautiful.


----------



## Stargazer

I really like Rutter's Requiem. I haven't really enjoyed many of his other things as much, but I never understood why he gets such a bad rep.


----------



## drpraetorus

I'm sorry, but Rutter is, to me, far to saccharine to bear in any but the smallest doses. He is kind of like the Leroy Anderson of choral music. I much prefer the music of Randall Thompson. Especially "The Last Words of David".




Just as an aside, the Mormon Tabernacle Choir has a CD of several of Thompsons works. Their performance of The Last Words of David is very powerful. It also includes Thompsons settings of some Robert Frost poems.


----------



## Tristan

I like Randall Thompson as well, especially "Place of the Blest".


----------



## Neo Romanza

rborganist said:


> I disagree with Neo Romanza; John Rutter seems to have gotten past the habit he had for a while of having all his introductions sound alike; the music itself didn't, just the introductions. Of his carols, my favorite is the Candlelight Carol, though I like quite a bit of his music. Listen to "For the Beauty of the Earth" (I directed that this past summer in the version for women's voices). I do like the Requiem. My chief impression of Rutter is that he knows how to write a memorable and singable melody, and that is no mean feat, and if anyone thinks that is old hat, so be it!


He still produces sugary pap, rborganist. Listen to a choral work by Rutter and then listen to one by Gretchaninov, for example, and you'll quickly notice Rutter's lack of anything substantial to say musically is well evident. Easy listening he is, but that's all. Writing a memorable melody isn't important and if it is to you, then maybe it's best that you stick to the bubblegum schtick of Rutter.


----------



## Tristan

Neo Romanza said:


> He still produces sugary pap, rborganist. Listen to a choral work by Rutter and then listen to one by Gretchaninov, for example, and you'll quickly notice Rutter's lack of anything substantial to say musically is well evident. Easy listening he is, but that's all. *Writing a memorable melody isn't important* and if it is to you, then maybe it's best that you stick to the bubblegum schtick of Rutter.


Could not disagree more with that statement. Rutter is a little sugary, there's no doubt about that, but plenty of excellent composers far above the abilities of Rutter write memorable melodies and they are often important to their works.


----------



## ellemcbell

I have to say that as a chorister 'For the beauty of the earth' was one of my favourites, and 'Gaelic Blessing' is lovely too. It's interesting that there is the love/hate thing people have for Rutter! Are there other composers out there that people have a similar reaction to?


----------



## DavidA

I must confess I have a problem with a man who makes his living creating religious music and is not a believer himself!


----------



## arpeggio

*Believers?*



DavidA said:


> I must confess I have a problem with a man who makes his living creating religious music and is not a believer himself!


Interesting. Do you also have problems with Brahms, Britten, Fauré, Vaughn Williams and Verdi (all of these composers and many others who have composed religious music were atheist/agnostics)? 

See:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_agnostics

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_atheists_in_music


----------



## PetrB

ellemcbell said:


> I have to say that as a chorister 'For the beauty of the earth' was one of my favourites, and 'Gaelic Blessing' is lovely too. It's interesting that there is the love/hate thing people have for Rutter! Are there other composers out there that people have a similar reaction to?


Eric Whitacre -- with a far stronger and more polarized split between yea & awful, it seems. 
There is a thread on Whitacre on TC... you can read the pros, and plenty of strong cons, there.


----------



## PetrB

arpeggio said:


> Interesting. Do you also have problems with Brahms, Britten, Fauré, Vaughn Williams and Verdi (all of these composers and many others who have composed religious music were atheist/agnostics)?
> 
> See:
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_agnostics
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_atheists_in_music


Now, I'm thinking that poster will have trouble with those works


----------



## DavidA

arpeggio said:


> Interesting. Do you also have problems with Brahms, Britten, Fauré, Vaughn Williams and Verdi (all of these composers and many others who have composed religious music were atheist/agnostics)?
> 
> See:
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_agnostics
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_atheists_in_music


No problems with them although I certainly have a problem with the Church of England commissioning a known agnostic to write a work for the consecration of a cathedral, even though the work turned out to be a masterpiece. The composers you mention did not actually make religious works their speciality. Just that Rutter has specialised in writing religious music. Can we think (eg) a Bach would have written so much of it had he not been a believer? Not that I am in any way comparing Rutter's music to Bach, btw!
Incidentally, although Brahms was not conventionally religious, he was a great student of the Lutheran Bible, from which got the texts for the Reauiem.


----------



## PetrB

DavidA said:


> No problems with them although I certainly have a problem with the Church of England commissioning a known agnostic to write a work for the consecration of a cathedral, even though the work turned out to be a masterpiece. The composers you mention did not actually make religious works their speciality. Just that Rutter has specialised in writing religious music. Can we think (eg) a Bach would have written so much of it had he not been a believer? Not that I am in any way comparing Rutter's music to Bach, btw!
> Incidentally, although Brahms was not conventionally religious, he was a great student of the Lutheran Bible, from which got the texts for the Reauiem.


I think you are rather naive about the position of the composer in relation to religious works. They have been and still are often enough considered no more or less than the janitor who gets paid to sweep up. Artists can and do great works for religious institutions, music, visual art, while themselves being either atheist, agnostic, or believer.

"Can we think (eg) a Bach would have written so much of it had he not been a believer?" The answer is _yes, because that was his job._

The C. of E. is known to have a great number of non-believers -- with no real belief in either a lord or savior -- who wear the collar or hold other highers offices, i.e. shepherds of the institution with whom that institution has no problem because all believe the institution, and the beliefs it promotes, does people good.

The composer you are referring to must be Benjamin Britten, his _War Requiem_ commissioned to re-consecrate Coventry Cathedral after an extensive renovation due to damages incurred in WWII. Britten (a pacifist, either agnostic or atheist, and homosexual) was not the sort [e.g.] that a Christian fundamentalist group would be at all happy with in general, let alone directing business to such an individual  In his War Requiem, Britten left out the Credo section of the traditional Latin Mass for the Dead.


----------



## DavidA

PetrB said:


> I think you are rather naive about the position of the composer in relation to religious works. They have been and still are often enough considered no more or less than the janitor who gets paid to sweep up. Artists can and do great works for religious institutions, music, visual art, while themselves being either atheist, agnostic, or believer.
> 
> "Can we think (eg) a Bach would have written so much of it had he not been a believer?" The answer is _yes, because that was his job._
> 
> The C. of E. is known to have a great number of non-believers -- with no real belief in either a lord or savior -- who wear the collar or hold other highers offices, i.e. shepherds of the institution with whom that institution has no problem because all believe the institution, and the beliefs it promotes, does people good.
> 
> The composer you are referring to must be Benjamin Britten, his _War Requiem_ commissioned to re-consecrate Coventry Cathedral after an extensive renovation due to damages incurred in WWII. Britten (a pacifist, either agnostic or atheist, and homosexual) was not the sort [e.g.] that a Christian fundamentalist group would be at all happy with in general, let alone directing business to such an individual  In his War Requiem, Britten left out the Credo section of the traditional Latin Mass for the Dead.


No. I am not a tall naive about the composer. I realise that position. They are just fulfilling a commission in many cases. But if you read about Bach which no doubt you have you will realise that despite it being his job he was also a deeply committed Lutheran. Just because it was his job doesn't mean he did not believe in what he was setting. After, all, a clergyman preaches sermons as his job but that does not disqualify him from believing, I hope!
I think your point about the Church of England is only partially true. Most people I meet from the Church of England I have a deeply committed faith.
As far as I know there is no credo section in the set mass for the day. No composer I know has included it.


----------



## norman bates

rborganist said:


> Listen to "For the Beauty of the Earth" (I directed that this past summer in the version for women's voices).


I remember I mentioned that piece in this topic 
http://www.talkclassical.com/249-who-do-you-consider-26.html

Well, at least it's so terrible that it make me laugh (when the drumkit starts it's like those bad rhythm samples on a cheap keyboard)


----------



## COmposerDawn

Perhaps Rutter inspires such a cavernous diversity of opinions because he is good and bad but also and far worse... he is successful! Sure some pieces are saccharine and I am getting tired of the same-voice unison openings, AND sometimes he sounds like an Andrew Lloyd Webber ripoff but 'What Sweeter Music' is a gorgeous piece. I joined this discussion because I was looking for other contemporary composers and thought some might be mentioned here. Thanks for the reference to Randall Thompson. Two others you might like to check out Thou Shalt Know Him by Mark Sirett 



 or Eleanor Daly's 'My Master In the Garden'.


----------



## PetrB

COmposerDawn said:


> Perhaps Rutter inspires such a cavernous diversity of opinions because he is good and bad but also and far worse... he is successful!


Ahhh, the old and very tired 'successful,' retort, as if the world is envious of both the artistic and financial success.

Hooey!

Some artists are highly successful because what they make appeals to a very broad public, and the reason why is exactly because their works are of a lower and more common denominator.


----------



## KenOC

PetrB said:


> Some artists are highly successful because what they make appeals to a very broad public, and the reason why is exactly because their works are of a lower and more common denominator.


"Lower and more common denominator" encompasses two very different ideas. I sure you realize that, otherwise you would be including Mozart, Beethoven, and several other worthies in your analysis.


----------



## PetrB

KenOC said:


> "Lower and more common denominator" encompasses two very different ideas. I sure you realize that, otherwise you would be including Mozart, Beethoven, and several other worthies in your analysis.


Evidently you missed the "Some" at the beginning of that sentence?


----------



## QuietGuy

Mass of the Children (written for his late son)
The Reluctant Dragon
Brother Heimlich's Christmas
Wind in the Willow

God Be In My Head
The Lord Bless You and Keep You
All Things Bright and Beautiful
For the Beauty of the Earth
Christmas Lullaby
Candlelight Carol
Angel's Carol

He's written secular choral works and instrumental pieces as well. All great stuff.

There are many Rutter pieces on youtube, as well as interviews. He makes no apology whatsoever for his traditional harmonic style.

I like his style and have many of his CDs and sheet music. I'm not a religious person -- in the traditional sense -- but his music is very uplifting.


----------



## Woodduck

DavidA said:


> I must confess I have a problem with a man who makes his living creating religious music and is not a believer himself!


I worked as a church musician for many years, and - trust me - the field is swarming with the heterodox among organists, soloists, and choir directors: atheists, agnostics, what you please (I fall into one or more of those categories). Without us the field of music would be infinitely poorer in religious-themed musical works and in people to perform them. The simple fact is that artists tend to be freethinkers. I think that's widely understood and accepted; I was never asked about my personal beliefs before standing in front of a congregation and singing "O Divine Redeemer."


----------



## JCarmel

Well, there's some good news on the Rutter front....
Ages ago I purchased this cd....







because I like to try and conquer my 'dislikes' and convert them to something more Positive, if I can. And the Good News is that upon the umpteenth attempt, I managed to derive a_ little _bit of pleasure from listening to the disc AND at least managed to listen to several tracks before screaming 'For Goodness sake, turn that damn thing off?! to a pal who was passing the cd eject button.
But basically...yukkkhh.


----------

