# Where in the 7 Hells have all the mezzos and contraltos gone?



## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

the only real one I can think of at the moment is Podles. other than that 
Joyce Didonato: soprano
Elena Garanca: soprano
Cecilia Bartoli: soprano 
Vivica Genaux: soprano 

It's not even that I dislike all these singers. Cecilia Bartoli is the only one I have a significantly negative opinion on, but...they're just not mezzos. Perhaps they started to disappear when we began to become afraid of chest voice (particularly female chest voice)?


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

There's a grain of truth in what you say, but have you not heard of Semenchuk?

N.


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## Sieglinde (Oct 25, 2009)

Anita Rachvelishvili


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## Meyerbeer Smith (Mar 25, 2016)

Max Emanuel Cencic? He's a mezzo.


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

Christine Goerke
Sharmay Musacchio


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## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

nina foresti said:


> Christine Goerke
> Sharmay Musacchio


Christine Goerke is not a mezzo. If anything she's on the higher end of dramatic soprano (not surprising given where she started).


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## IgorS (Jan 7, 2018)

Mezzos and contraltos? Where the hell proper sopranos and tenors are? Just Hernandez with any normal voice.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

BalalaikaBoy said:


> Christine Goerke is not a mezzo. If anything she's on the higher end of dramatic soprano (not surprising given where she started).


She may have started out that way, but have you heard the odd thing that happens to her notes above the staff? At present she isn't at the higher end of anything.


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## Roger Knox (Jul 19, 2017)

Marie-Nicole Lemieux
Jamie Barton


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

BalalaikaBoy said:


> the only real one I can think of at the moment is Podles. other than that
> Joyce Didonato: soprano
> Elena Garanca: soprano
> Cecilia Bartoli: soprano
> ...


I totally agree with you. Joyce is immensely talented, technically perfect, and a great actress BUT her voice is neither distinctive nor a mezzo.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Roger Knox said:


> Marie-Nicole Lemieux
> Jamie Barton


I heard Jamie live in a small, intimate theater. Her voice is immense and is most definitely possessing a chocolaty mezzo sound. She is stocky but not as fat as she looks on TV.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

BalalaikaBoy said:


> the only real one I can think of at the moment is Podles. other than that
> Joyce Didonato: soprano
> Elena Garanca: soprano
> Cecilia Bartoli: soprano
> ...


I don't think they are necessariy sopranos, just lyric mezzos, rather like Frederika Von Stade or Janet Baker.

But there is a definite shortage of dramatic mezzos like Simionato, Barbieri, Cossotto or Baltsa. Mind you there seems to be a shortage of dramatic anything these days.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

I don't think they are necessariy sopranos, just lyric mezzos, rather like Frederika Von Stade or Janet Baker.

But there is a definite shortage of dramatic mezzos like Simionato, Barbieri, Cossotto or Baltsa. Mind you there seems to be a shortage of dramatic anything these days. is a light lyric mezzo BUT she has what is important to me: she has the color, the hint of darkness I desire in my mezzos. Von Stade and Baker had that color as well in spades. Hard to describe but you know it when you hear it. Didonato has a marvelous voice, but she sounds like a lyric soprano who has a limited top ( or else doesn't like remaining up high).
Zagick is still singing and is a true dramatic mezzo, but I like those Italian ladies of old better.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Woodduck said:


> She may have started out that way, but have you heard the odd thing that happens to her notes above the staff? At present she isn't at the higher end of anything.


Woodduck,I would say the top is iffy. I've heard her in the latest Ring from the Met and the recording of the High C sounds great, but at the Tucker Gala you were correct. You might enjoy hearing this clip from my fair city 16 years ago when she was Norma. I never heard Sutherland live, but Goerke's high D at the end of the trio made me not feel so left out!!! Huge and wonderful!


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## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

Tsaraslondon said:


> I don't think they are necessariy sopranos, just lyric mezzos, rather like Frederika Von Stade or Janet Baker.
> 
> But there is a definite shortage of dramatic mezzos like Simionato, Barbieri, Cossotto or Baltsa. Mind you there seems to be a shortage of dramatic anything these days.


Janet Baker, yes. Frederika Von Stade sounds like a soprano singing lower. imo, most "lyric mezzos" around today really lyric or spinto soprani while most "dramatic mezzos" are dramatic soprani singing lower. in my mind, lyric mezzo is closer to Cossotto:


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

BalalaikaBoy said:


> Janet Baker, yes. Frederika Von Stade sounds like a soprano singing lower. imo, most "lyric mezzos" around today really lyric or spinto soprani while most "dramatic mezzos" are dramatic soprani singing lower. in my mind, lyric mezzo is closer to Cossotto:


Well, I'm not so bothered about fach as you are. Von Stade did have a lovely soprano sounding top register, but she was definitely more comfortable in a lower tessitura and stuck to roles that were suited to her lyric voice - Charlotte, Cherubino, Cendrillon, Cenerentola, Margeurite (in the Berlioz), Chérubin, Mignon and La Périchole. She also sang Elena in *La Donna del Lago* and Amina in *La Sonnambula* but in the Malibran version. I think she's still a mezzo.

According to my singing teacher, who knew Janet Baker well, she used to exercise up to a top D. She started her career as a contralto, but it never really had those contralto depths of Ferrier.

As for Cossotto, her voice was beefier than either Baker or Von Stade, though probably didn't have the decibels of Simionato or Barbieri. I doubt Baltsa's voice was any bigger (though it was plenty big enough in the theatre), and I'd still think of her as a dramatic mezzo.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Tsaraslondon said:


> Well, I'm not so bothered about fach as you are. Von Stade did have a lovely soprano sounding top register, but she was definitely more comfortable in a lower tessitura and stuck to roles that were suited to her lyric voice - Charlotte, Cherubino, Cendrillon, Cenerentola, Margeurite (in the Berlioz), Chérubin, Mignon and La Périchole. She also sang Elena in *La Donna del Lago* and Amina in *La Sonnambula* but in the Malibran version. I think she's still a mezzo.
> 
> According to my singing teacher, who knew Janet Baker well, she used to exercise up to a top D. She started her career as a contralto, but it never really had those contralto depths of Ferrier.
> 
> As for Cossotto, her voice was beefier than either Baker or Von Stade, though probably didn't have the decibels of Simionato or Barbieri. I doubt Baltsa's voice was any bigger (though it was plenty big enough in the theatre), and I'd still think of her as a dramatic mezzo.


I would have thought the same of Baltsa, but someone who heard her live said it was a big voice. Didn't sound more than medium big on recordings.


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## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

Tsaraslondon said:


> Well, I'm not so bothered about fach as you are. Von Stade did have a lovely soprano sounding top register, but she was definitely more comfortable in a lower tessitura and stuck to roles that were suited to her lyric voice - Charlotte, Cherubino, Cendrillon, Cenerentola, Margeurite (in the Berlioz), Chérubin, Mignon and La Périchole. She also sang Elena in *La Donna del Lago* and Amina in *La Sonnambula* but in the Malibran version. I think she's still a mezzo.


oh I'm not really "bothered" in this case. she had a lovely voice and I could listen to her at length...but it sounds like a lovely soprano singing low, not a lovely mezzo like Elena Cernei or Ebe Stignani.



> According to my singing teacher, who knew Janet Baker well, she used to exercise up to a top D. She started her career as a contralto, but it never really had those contralto depths of Ferrier.


sounds about right. the top just reaching into the next higher fach and being mistake for the next lower fach are quite common among singers



> As for Cossotto, her voice was beefier than either Baker or Von Stade, though probably didn't have the decibels of Simionato or Barbieri. I doubt Baltsa's voice was any bigger (though it was plenty big enough in the theatre), and I'd still think of her as a dramatic mezzo.


as this point, I'm honestly wondering if "lyric mezzo" is even a fach and if Mister Opera isn't correct about this assertion, but I'm not ready to say that yet. Agnes Baltsa is another voice I'd call a solid (and tremendously underrated!) lyric mezzo


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## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

I should clarify: if a soprano with a solid chest voice can sing mezzo work and sound beautiful, I'm not bothered by this at all. By all means, why limit yourself? What I'm bothered by is that there are a lack of mezzos of any kind to sing such music.


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

BalalaikaBoy said:


> I should clarify: if a soprano with a solid chest voice can sing mezzo work and sound beautiful, I'm not bothered by this at all. By all means, *why limit yourself*? What I'm bothered by is that there are a lack of mezzos of any kind to sing such music.


Exactly, and that's what this whole fach prattle is about, limiting. Singers do not fall into comfortable categories. Given any two fachs there will also be just as many who fall in between, so where's the point?


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

BalalaikaBoy said:


> oh I'm not really "bothered" in this case. she had a lovely voice and I could listen to her at length...but it sounds like a lovely soprano singing low, not a lovely mezzo like Elena Cernei or Ebe Stignani.
> 
> sounds about right. the top just reaching into the next higher fach and being mistake for the next lower fach are quite common among singers
> 
> as this point, I'm honestly wondering if "lyric mezzo" is even a fach and if Mister Opera isn't correct about this assertion, but I'm not ready to say that yet. Agnes Baltsa is another voice I'd call a solid (and tremendously underrated!) lyric mezzo


I don't think she was underrated at the peak of her career. I heard her live quite a few times and she usually had great reviews. She recorded quite a lot too - complete recordings of Aida, Don Carlo, Carmen, Samson et Dalila, Il Barbiere di Siviglia, La Cenerentola, L'Italiana in Algeri, Idomeneo, Ariadne auf Naxos, Der Rosenkavalier, Don Giovanni (as Donna Elvira), La Forza del Destino, Maria Stuarda (as Elisabetta), Tannhäuser, La Gioconda, I Capuleti e i Montecchi, the Verdi Requiem (twice) and some I've no doubt forgotten, not to mention a few recitals. She's also recorded Das Lied von der Erde, Les Nuits d'Eté, Wesendonck Lieder and is on quite a few different choral pieces too. I think you'll find that's more than most mezzos managed.


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## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

Becca said:


> Exactly, and that's what this whole fach prattle is about, limiting. Singers do not fall into comfortable categories. Given any two fachs there will also be just as many who fall in between, so where's the point?


"you shouldn't limit yourself" =/= "certain music doesn't sound best on certain types of voices"

there are sopranos who have successfully sung Azucena, but without the witchy lower register of a real mezzo, they will never fulfill the role's full potential (and vice versa). that's what I'm concerned about: not matching singers properly with roles where each will fulfill the other's full potential. most dramatic soprani can comfortably sing mezzo (indeed, I think most singers can sing one fach lower quite comfortably, but it won't have the same excitement, richness or intensity).


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

BalalaikaBoy said:


> "you shouldn't limit yourself" =/= "certain music doesn't sound best on certain types of voices"


That is patently obvious and did not need saying. The point is that the constant dividing, sub-dividing etc. of fachs and then arguing over whether a singer fits neatly into one or another (most won't) seems counter-productive. The very existence of fachs and their use is limiting.


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## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

Becca said:


> That is patently obvious and did not need saying. The point is that the constant dividing, sub-dividing etc. of fachs and then arguing over whether a singer fits neatly into one or another (most won't) seems counter-productive. The very existence of fachs and their use is limiting.


the divide between soprano and mezzo is a pretty basic one. I'm not over here like "no, that's not a lyric mezzo, it's a light baroque colorautra mezzo" or anything like that (ftr, I don't actually consider coloratura mezzo a fach).


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

BalalaikaBoy said:


> *the divide between soprano and mezzo is a pretty basic one*. I'm not over here like "no, that's not a lyric mezzo, it's a light baroque colorautra mezzo" or anything like that (ftr, I don't actually consider coloratura mezzo a fach).


Actually it isn't, and all you have to do is look at the singers who were active in France in the last half of the 19th century to see that. As I said, people don't fall into nice categories, even ones like soprano/mezzo.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Becca said:


> Actually it isn't, and all you have to do is look at the singers who were active in France in the last half of the 19th century to see that. As I said, people don't fall into nice categories, even ones like soprano/mezzo.


Indeed. What about Verrett and Bumbry, both of whom switched between soprano and mezzo roles successfully? Of course going back there was Cornélie Falcon, who had a voice which fell between the two and gave her name to a certain type of voice.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Verrett and Bumbry were both wonderful sopranos, but as mezzos they really stood out in their field. They both lost something singing higher roles in richness and color, but could have had very good careers only as sopranos.


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## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

Becca said:


> Actually it isn't, and all you have to do is look at the singers who were active in France in the last half of the 19th century to see that. As I said, people don't fall into nice categories, even ones like soprano/mezzo.


the vast majority of female voices fall cleanly into either soprano or mezzo (let's face it, contraltos are rare). that there are a few outlier voices like Shirley Verrett, Christa Ludwig or Maria Ewing does not change this. from there, things can get a little hairy (who is a spinto vs a lirico spinto vs a full lyric vs a dramatic coloratura soprano, etc), and I can see how endless sectioning off into smaller and smaller boxes can get annoying, but the basics have been there for hundreds of years for a reason, even if only a couple hundred.

perhaps a demonstration will illustrate that I'm not just talking semantics. no soprano, not even the deepest, darkest, best trained soprano in the history of mankind...can do this:


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## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

Seattleoperafan said:


> Verrett and Bumbry were both wonderful sopranos, but as mezzos they really stood out in their field. They both lost something singing higher roles in richness and color, but could have had very good careers only as sopranos.


I like Bumbry better as a mezzo and Verrett in...pretty much everything she's ever touched.Her Azucena is the only role I have a tiny complaint about (not quite enough witchy nastiness and chest voice), but other than that, she is a freak who is equally glorious from mezzo all the way up to high D.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

BalalaikaBoy said:


> the vast majority of female voices fall cleanly into either soprano or mezzo (let's face it, contraltos are rare). that there are a few outlier voices like Shirley Verrett, Christa Ludwig or Maria Ewing does not change this. from there, things can get a little hairy (who is a spinto vs a lirico spinto vs a full lyric vs a dramatic coloratura soprano, etc), and I can see how endless sectioning off into smaller and smaller boxes can get annoying, but the basics have been there for hundreds of years for a reason, even if only a couple hundred.
> 
> perhaps a demonstration will illustrate that I'm not just talking semantics. no soprano, not even the deepest, darkest, best trained soprano in the history of mankind...can do this:


Ponselle could have come close.. BUT that is amazing!!!!! Ponselle was a freak, of course. I read one author who said Nicolai had a voice of truly titanic proportions, maybe bigger than even Flagstad's or Grob Prandl's. Can imagine hearing her in a theater???


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

BalalaikaBoy said:


> I like Bumbry better as a mezzo and Verrett in...pretty much everything she's ever touched.Her Azucena is the only role I have a tiny complaint about (not quite enough witchy nastiness and chest voice), but other than that, she is a freak who is equally glorious from mezzo all the way up to high D.


Verrett gets lost in the company of Sutherland and Callas, but her Norma was really really wonderful. It would certainly be the finest Norma today by a long shot. Still, I prefer her Arsace or the mezzo role in The Siege of Corinth.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Seattleoperafan said:


> Verrett gets lost in the company of Sutherland and Callas, but her Norma was really really wonderful. It would certainly be the finest Norma today by a long shot. Still, I prefer her Arsace or the mezzo role in The Siege of Corinth.


She's my joint favourite Eboli (with Baltsa), Elisabetta (in *Maria Stuarda*) and Dalila and her Lady Macbeth is second only to Callas. So I do prefer her in mezzo roles. I know Lady Macbeth is really a soprano role but, aside from that Db in the Sleepwalking Scene, the tessitura is quite low. There are a whole host of other roles I like her in, but I'd have to agree that I like her most in mezzo territory.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

If this lady doesn't knock your socks off, nothing will!


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## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

Seattleoperafan said:


> Verrett gets lost in the company of Sutherland and Callas, but her Norma was really really wonderful. It would certainly be the finest Norma today by a long shot. *Still, I prefer her Arsace or the mezzo role in The Siege of Corinth*.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Fritz Kobus said:


> If this lady doesn't knock your socks off, nothing will!


I remember being rather taken with Kasarova when her recordings first appeared. She has a distinctive timbre, which is always welcome. Has anyone heard anything about her lately?


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## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

Fritz Kobus said:


> If this lady doesn't knock your socks off, nothing will!


she can be a bit forced, pinched and/or artificially dark in a few places, but overall...solid 8/10 voice.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

BalalaikaBoy said:


> solid 8/10 voice.


You are SO precise!


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

BalalaikaBoy said:


> she can be a bit forced, pinched and/or artificially dark in a few places, but overall...solid 8/10 voice.


Well, here is an interesting comparison.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

Woodduck said:


> I remember being rather taken with Kasarova when her recordings first appeared. She has a distinctive timbre, which is always welcome. Has anyone heard anything about her lately?


Here she is in 2016 or about 50-years of age (queued to sample her singing).


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## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

Fritz Kobus said:


> Well, here is an interesting comparison.


yeah, his thoughts were pretty much 90% of what mine were before watching it. only difference is I thought he was a bit harsh on a singer who is far better than any mezzo around today.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

There is one mezzo I don't think anyone mentioned: Stephanie Blythe. I don't know what she sounds like now, but 15 years ago in Seattle she had one of the greatest voices I ever heard live. It was very, very beautiful, seamless, the biggest voice I ever heard, and a good actress. Yes, she was big as a house, but she had a very beautiful face. Some didn't like her in Carmen because of her appearance, but her Amneris was unbelievable. Speight Jenkins, a great judge of voices, said she was the best Amneris since Simeonato. She was recorded in Handel arias and did them well, but it is a real shame she was never recorded in Amneris. In her final scene I thought her voice was going to bring the sets tumbling down. She wanted to sing Sieglinde and I'm sure she could have done a beautiful job, but Speight Jenkins persuaded her that her voice was too mature sounding for the part.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

One more artist: Olga Boradina. I heard her in La Gioconda at The Met and I was really blown away with how wonderful she was. She looked great onstage, her voice was big and beautiful and I thought she deserved the honor of performing at The Met. I also heard her in The Italian in Algiers on the radio and she was able to scale back her big voice to sing coloratura very well. I must have heard her over 10 years ago so I don't know what she sounds like now.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

I decided to delete this entry as the artist was already discussed.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Fritz Kobus said:


> Well, here is an interesting comparison.


This really is terrific, the voice perfectly even from top to bottom. She had a long career (she might even still be singing) but later gaps opened up between her head and chest voice, which she was maybe tempted to exploit too much when she took on bigger roles like Eboli and Amneris. But she was a thrilling performer. I saw her as Adalgisa, Dorabella, Isabella, Carmen and Eboli and also heard her in the Verdi Requiem and the voice was pretty large too.


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## Jermaine (Apr 23, 2016)

BalalaikaBoy said:


> the only real one I can think of at the moment is Podles. other than that
> Joyce Didonato: soprano
> Elena Garanca: soprano
> Cecilia Bartoli: soprano
> ...


I know you dislike Bartoli, you never miss an opportunity to mention it, but I do think she's more a mezzo than a soprano.






I mean you must be insane if you listen to this and think she's a soprano, but then there are other arias in which you'd expect her to sound like a truck's engine on throttle, but the weight of the voice is just as bright as any other coloratura soprano,






So it's not easy to classify, but I would not venture to say she IS definitely a soprano since the timbre of her voice is more mezzo-like.​


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Jermaine said:


> I know you dislike Bartoli, you never miss an opportunity to mention it, but I do think she's more a mezzo than a soprano.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Unlike many lyric mezzos today, she has the dark coloring in the lower and middle parts of her voice that I want to hear in mezzos. She is fortunate that her voice records well.


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