# Jean-Philippe Rameau



## Mirror Image

Jean-Philippe Rameau was one of the truly multifaceted musicians of his day. Acclaimed for his innovative and popular operas, he was also known as one of the greatest organists in France, and his theoretical writings continue to influence musical thinkers over two centuries later.

Although his father was a professional organist, Rameau was expected to pursue a career in the law. However, he was musically very precocious, teaching himself several instruments and the basics of harmony and composition. After spending more time on music than on his studies at the Jesuit College in Dijon (1693-1697), Rameau was removed from school; only when he was 18 did his parents give in to his wishes for a musical career. He went to Italy for a few months, and spent some time playing violin in a travelling French opera troupe. Then he took organist posts in Clermont-Ferrand (1702-1705), Paris (1705-1708), Dijon (1709-1714), Lyons (1714-1715), and Clermont again (1715-1722).

Rameau had begun composing for the harpsichord, publishing his first book of keyboard works in 1706 (subsequent volumes appeared in 1724, 1728, and 1741). He had also written a few motets and secular cantatas, and had started his first book, the Traité de l'harmonie (published 1722), which later made his reputation as an important theorist.

Hoping for greater fame as a composer, he moved to Paris in late 1722; there he took on some private students and composed numerous keyboard and short stage works. Eventually, he came to the attention of the financier and courtier Le Riche de la Pouplinière, who hired Rameau as conductor of his orchestra (a position he held for some 22 years) and allowed him and his family to live in his mansion. Through La Pouplinière, Rameau also met many of the great writers of his day, including some who later became librettists for his operas.

Rameau produced his first opera, Hippolyte et Aricie (1733), at the age of 50. The work wasn't well received initially, but the opera Castor et Pollux (1737) was much more successful, and Rameau gradually became known as one of France's leading composers. For the rest of his life, he divided his time between composing and writing further theoretical works like Nouveau système de musique théorique (1726), Dissertation sur les differents méthodes d'accompagnement pour le clavecin ou pour l'orgue (1732), and Démonstration du principe de l'harmonie (1750). He felt his theoretical works were at least as important as his music, and defended his theories in extensive correspondences and debates with many of the leading musical thinkers in Europe.

In 1745, he was appointed composer of the King's chamber music. He continued writing operas, both tragic works like Dardanus (1739, rev. 1744) and comedies like Platée (1745) and La Princesse de Navarre (1745). These and his other operas and incidental music (he wrote about 30 stage works in all) were noteworthy for their expanded harmonic palate, their brilliant choruses and ballets, and the prominent role Rameau gave to the orchestra. But not everyone admired his music, and for years a bitter public rivalry existed between the Rameau partisans and the "Lullistes," who preferred the somewhat more conservative works of Jean-Baptiste Lully. Rameau also had to defend his musical style in the "War of the Buffoons" of 1752 against those who preferred the lighter Italian operas of composers like Giovanni Battista Pergolesi. Four months before his death, Rameau was granted a patent of nobility by King Louis XV. He died just before his 81st birthday, and was buried at his parish church at St. Eustache.

[Article taken from All Music Guide]

Another Baroque composer I heard that I actually was captivated by. He wrote some beautiful music. I especially love his orchestral suites. What do you guys think of Rameau? I know he isn't discussed much around here.


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## Elgarian

Mirror Image said:


> Another Baroque composer I heard that I actually was captivated by. He wrote some beautiful music. I especially love his orchestral suites. What do you guys think of Rameau? I know he isn't discussed much around here.


Well, there has been some discussion of Rameau, most notably concerning the wonderful _Les Indes Galantes_ here, and also his _In Convertando_ here.

If the penny has dropped concerning Rameau, then surely folk like Lully, Charpentier, and Couperin can't be far behind. In which case, you'll find a lot of discussion here.


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## bassClef

I have an old recording (on tape!) of his "Gavotte and Variations", quite dazzling stuff. I didn't note who the performer was though. These is also available as downloads via wikipedia, but I don't like those interpretations much.


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## bdelykleon

I like several of his operas, specially Platée, which is a rare and incredibly funny baroque comic opera. But surely what most captivate me are his four harpsichord suites, incredible music.


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## Weston

I have read that he was a bit of an abrasive person, but his music is great fun. I love the Dardanus Suite, complete with sound effects. It's one of the pieces that got me hooked on baroque. It's not played very much for some reason.


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## Air

His five "Pieces de Clavecin en Concerts" are beautiful as well.

Yes, all of Rameau's operas were absolute masterpieces. I like most the three operas that were unappreciated during his time, "Hippolyte et Aricie", "Les Boreades", and "Platee". Rameau was extremely ahead of his time in these works, just listen to the overture of "Platee". I've also heard and loved "Castor et Pollux", "La princesse de Navarre", "Zoroastre", "Dardanus", and "Zais." They are all revolutionary.

I heard that Debussy and Berlioz once said: "Rameau is the greatest French composer ever." Is this true?


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## bdelykleon

airad2 said:


> His five "Pieces de Clavecin en Concerts" are beautiful as well.
> 
> Yes, all of Rameau's operas were absolute masterpieces. I like most the three operas that were unappreciated during his time, "Hippolyte et Aricie", "Les Boreades", and "Platee". Rameau was extremely ahead of his time in these works, just listen to the overture of "Platee". I've also heard and loved "Castor et Pollux", "La princesse de Navarre", "Zoroastre", "Dardanus", and "Zais." They are all revolutionary.
> 
> I heard that Debussy and Berlioz once said: "Rameau is the greatest French composer ever." Is this true?


Yes, and one of the Images is called "Hommage à Rameau" (and is one of my very favorite pieces of Debussy). Berlioz' unbridled admiration was for Gluck, but he recognized the importance and the greatness of Rameau's oeuvre.

I'm particulary fond of the Suite in A major with "Les Trois Mains", a piece so fun to play, the right hand crosses all the time. And Gavotte with six doubles, which is a perfect set of variations, I like it a lot.


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## Elgarian

Give me any excuse to go partying with Rameau, Christie, and Patricia Petibon - and I'll take it.

Try this; and this.


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## bdelykleon

Les Sauvages was transcribed to Rameau's suite in G. It is very fine.


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## Weston

Elgarian said:


> Try this; and this.


Darn! I've side-slipped into a parallel universe again. There's never any warning sensations when that happens.

Great clips though!


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## neoshredder

Bump. Listening to him now. Basically the highlights of all his suites.


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## Novelette

I was once an insatiable listener of Rameau's music. I still love it every bit as much as I once did, but I know it all so well that it's difficult to listen to anymore.

I treasure my collection of Rameau's music, I have every opera that has been recorded, even the rare Zais recording. I dream of a complete recording of the Temple de la Gloire, as well as of his unfinished opera Io. My favorite can be nothing but Les Boreades; Gardiner did the world a great favor by recording that breathtaking opera!


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## Ingélou

Elgarian said:


> Give me any excuse to go partying with Rameau, Christie, and Patricia Petibon - and I'll take it.
> 
> Try this; and this.


I must admit, I don't really like your first 'this'. The singers & dancers are so busy pulling faces & dissociating themselves from Rameau's view of Native Americans that it distracts & detracts from the glory of the music. It's fun, but that's all...


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## Novelette

For me, nothing beats listening to the albums. The music is so dramatically intertwined with the actions, that I prefer to imagine the scenery for myself.

I devoted most of 2007 - 2008 to Rameau.


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## Richannes Wrahms

Air said:


> Yes, all of Rameau's operas are absolute masterpieces. I like most the three operas that were unappreciated during his time, *Hippolyte et Aricie, Les Boreades, and Platee*. Rameau was extremely ahead of his time in these works, just listen to the overture of Platee.


I put those Operas on a pedestal above all other Baroque operas. They are as innovative as they are perfect.


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## PetrB

At least as great a composer as Bach -- _at the least!_


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## Novelette

PetrB said:


> At least as great a composer as Bach -- _at the least!_


Very, very, _very much agreed!_


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## Morimur

Love his music. Excellent composer.


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## hpowders

I love the various orchestral suites culled from Rameau's operas such as the suite from Dardanus.


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## hpowders

Sad day. Christopher Hogwood died. One of the HIP pioneers.


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## science

hpowders said:


> Sad day. Christopher Hogwood died. One of the HIP pioneers.


Did Hogwood make any particular recording of Rameau that you have in mind?


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## PabloElFlamenco

Jean-Philippe Rameau is one of my favorites. Don't ask me the "why" or the "what", it's just that, at one point, his music caught and kept my attention. As I'm interested in history, I researched a bit, and as I'm reading (Max Gallo) the French revolution (whereof I chose to omit the capital "R"), it somewhat catches my fancy that this music was as far removed from 1789 as the early Beatles to this day and time, not that I suppose "the French people" were "fans" of Rameau (even if his funeral ceremoney was rumored to be highly attended). In fact, Rameau's music serves the function of better understanding that, in appearance distant, world of the "ancien régime". 
"Zaïs" is perhaps my favorite, which isn't saying much, because it's what I know best. The overture is truly phenomenal, it can't be beat for sheer grandiose musicality. This "opera-ballet" has some passages the sheer beauty of which leave one spellbound if not in tears (allez...!) Thanks to Mr. Marc Minkowski's recording "Une Symphonie Imaginaire", I have the opportunity of greatly enjoying some passages of "Les Boreades", "Castor et Pollux", "Les Indes Galantes", whereas Scott Ross performs so grandly the Rameau harpsichord oeuvre.
...all "Temples de la Gloire" of baroque music in France.
Paul


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## Gaspard de la Nuit

PetrB said:


> At least as great a composer as Bach -- _at the least!_


I agree. Bach has some quality _besides_ overall quality that makes him agreeable to the people who, over time, decided what belongs in the canon and the repertory.....a few of his contemporaries are or are almost on equal footing, at least in certain genres, although in rameau's case it seems true on the whole. His music is consistently no less beautiful, in fact (like _some_ of couperin's) it might be more beautiful.

I've been listening to his keyboard works and it's just such a breath of fresh air after hearing 85% Bach as baroque keyboard music representation.


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## tdc

Gaspard de la Nuit said:


> I agree. Bach has some quality _besides_ overall quality that makes him agreeable to the people who, over time, decided what belongs in the canon and the repertory.....a few of his contemporaries are or are almost on equal footing, at least in certain genres, although in rameau's case it seems true on the whole. His music is consistently no less beautiful, in fact (like _some_ of couperin's) it might be more beautiful.
> 
> I've been listening to his keyboard works and it's just such a breath of fresh air after hearing 85% Bach as baroque keyboard music representation.


There is no conspiracy. Bach is more revered because he was the better composer. 

Still love Rameau though.


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## Gaspard de la Nuit

tdc said:


> There is no conspiracy. Bach is more revered because he was the better composer.
> 
> Still love Rameau though.


 Whatever you happen to think of Bach vs. rameau, it literally is a conspiracy, in that specific groups of people in the WCM universe with the means to, decide whose music is promulgated and whose isn't, and make far-reaching aesthetic value decisions that rely largely on the esteem of the individuals and the consensus of very similar individuals to present themselves as an objective fact on cultural achievement, as opposed to just someone's opinion, which is what it really is.


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## Mahlerian

Gaspard de la Nuit said:


> Whatever you happen to think of Bach vs. rameau, it literally is a conspiracy, in that specific groups of people in the WCM universe with the means to, decide whose music is promulgated and whose isn't, and make far-reaching aesthetic value decisions that rely largely on the esteem of the individuals and the consensus of very similar individuals to present themselves as an objective fact on cultural achievement, as opposed to just someone's opinion, which is what it really is.


A group of people agreeing with each other doesn't constitute a conspiracy. A conspiracy would mean that they are intentionally doing something (promulgating certain composers' works over others, in this instance) in coordination with each other. Given the recent revival in the fortunes of Rameau and other composers of the Baroque, late and early, I would say that it would require strong evidence to assert that they're being actively suppressed in favor of Bach.


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## Gaspard de la Nuit

Mahlerian said:


> A group of people agreeing with each other doesn't constitute a conspiracy. A conspiracy would mean that they are intentionally doing something (promulgating certain composers' works over others, in this instance) in coordination with each other. Given the recent revival in the fortunes of Rameau and other composers of the Baroque, late and early, I would say that it would require strong evidence to assert that they're being actively suppressed in favor of Bach.


A group of people agreeing is the first requirement in a conspiracy, and in this case it is typically music scholars, professors, and others who impact what is taught and performed, deciding what their students will learn and what they want to be passed on to future generations. It's not that music is being suppressed as much as that greatness is being measured by standards that give a certain approach to musical composition a considerable advantage.

In my experience, there is a sizable minority of musicians who have opinions to the effect that they don't like Beethoven or they think some of Bach's music is unlistenable. There is a general consensus as to the greatness of the usual pantheon of composers but it is nowhere near as universal as we are supposed to believe.


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## Bulldog

Rameau is one of my favorite baroque composers, but he clearly is a few steps below Bach. There's no conspiracy here, just a matter of quality. Rameau does the have the edge with opera, but that's only because Bach didn't write any.


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## Rik1

Wonderful music, but I do wish there were more opportunities to see his operas in the UK. One of the problems with Rameau, unfortunately is that he has been the victim of fraudulent re-orchestrations that until recently were still being used for performances (even by some period bands 20 years ago). I used to love my old recording of Dardanus, it was a showcase for Rameau's innovative orchestrations. But then I learnt that this was all a lie and in fact the official edition from 100 years ago includes a lot of creative license that was not documented at the time. More recent recordings are still lovely, but are much more stripped down in a manner that is much more familiar with Baroque music. It does mean that you have to spend time finding a good edition in order to perform this stuff. Maybe that has stifled some orchestras from wanting to tackle it in the UK.

Anyway, I've been recently listening to his keyboard works. As someone else earlier said, it's such a breathe of fresh air from the German composers.


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## norman bates

I've read that Bach had a terrible opinion about Rameau, at least as a theorist. What's the reason for that?


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## Mandryka

norman bates said:


> I've read that Bach had a terrible opinion about Rameau, at least as a theorist. What's the reason for that?


Which Bach?

salvfcskfcbhasjkfcbvzwsmjkvfcbedzsvfcmjbedz


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## norman bates

johan sebastian


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## Mandryka

norman bates said:


> johan sebastian


I don't believe that Bach's library contained anything by Rameau, and as far as can see Forkel doesn't say say CPEB said his father had an opinion about Rameau. I don't feel able to comment on whether Bach's music resembles Rameau's in any interesting way, maybe others will.

This may be interesting or it may not

http://schillerinstitute.org/fid_97-01/002-3_bach_kep.html


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## norman bates

Mandryka said:


> I don't believe that Bach's library contained anything by Rameau, and as far as can see Forkel doesn't say say CPEB said his father had an opinion about Rameau.


a couple of links:
"Although he surely fancied himself more as composer than as theorist, Jean-Philippe Rameau's great gift to the world was his concept of chord generation from the fundamental bass and the simple, albeit revolutionary, notion of the invertibility of the triad. His Traité de l'Harmonie not only explained the generation of the seventh chord upon the basis of tertian theory, it was developed upon propositions strongly suggestive of the yet undiscovered harmonic series. I*t is reported that J. S. Bach was familiar with Rameau's theory of chord inversion, but that he rejected it.* "
http://www2.nau.edu/tas3/baroqueideal.html

https://books.google.it/books?id=m_A8AAAAIAAJ&pg=PA1&lpg=PA1&dq=bach+rameau+father&source=bl&ots=z04TmfeyFu&sig=MyAi5yAnV_pdHEJTwc-JYe45PiE&hl=it&sa=X&ved=0CCwQ6AEwAWoVChMIzNLxkby4yAIVA6hyCh2R3ARL#v=onepage&q=bach%20rameau%20father&f=false
'*You may state publicly that my principles, and those of my late father, are antithetical to Rameau's*.' (this one is C.P.E Bach)



Mandryka said:


> This may be interesting or it may not
> 
> http://schillerinstitute.org/fid_97-01/002-3_bach_kep.html


thank you, it seems interesting


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## Mandryka

That comment attributed to Bach allegedly by his son, I remember years ago being in a discussion about it with some historians, and I remember they cast doubt on its reliability. It comes from a record by Kimberger if I recall correctly, and both Kimberger and CPE Bach were not in agreement with Rameau's theoretical ideas. 

But I'm out of my depth here. What would be really interesting would be if someone who knows about music could comment on whether J S Bach's compositional techniques are consistent with Rameau's ideas.


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## GreenMamba

norman bates said:


> I've read that Bach had a terrible opinion about Rameau, at least as a theorist. What's the reason for that?


Some information on that here:

http://schillerinstitute.org/fid_97-01/002-3_bach_kep.html


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## millionrainbows

The criticism of Rameau is distorted and exaggerated. Bach certainly had a sense of vertical harmony, which he played on frequently in his contrapuntal excursions. If viewed in this way, Bach had an "expanded" sense of harmony, because he used "chords" like major sevenths which didn't "exist" as harmonic entities, except as the result of simultaneous soundings of separate lines. I have always loved this aspect of Bach: his harmonic adventurousness, even radicalness.

If viewed this way, the distinctions between vertical harmony and counterpoint become less relevant and more illusory. 

Still, this is not Gregorian chant; Bach was using scales and key signatures, and was very interested in tuning and temperament ("pure, sensual sound"). Bach thought harmonically without a doubt. He was very well aware of the vertical, harmonic implications of his counterpoint.

In fact, I will go so far as to say that Bach used counterpoint in the service of the harmonic, vertical effects that it produced, not so much for the melodic effects. Many times we hear his 'counterpoint' as being sequences, almost mechanical in nature. I think he saw the 'true art' of what he was doing as the vertical, chordal, harmonic effects he produced, which allowed him to go outside the box of tonal thinking as it stood. The counterpoint was just scale runs, sequences, and little phrases, by comparison (of course that's an exaggeration as well). He saw counterpoint as the mechanics, and harmony as the artistic goal.

It's just different ways of thinking. I'm surprised that we didn't consider chords as separate harmonic entities long before this. Perhaps Gregorian chant and the pressure from the Church to adhere to tradition had something to do with this attitude.


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## Rik1

Interesting discussion on Bach's thinking on Rameau. As I understand it, we don't really know what JS Bach thought of Rameau if he indeed thought of Rameau at all. In any case, it wouldn't be surprising as their music is worlds apart.


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## Rik1

GreenMamba said:


> Some information on that here:
> 
> http://schillerinstitute.org/fid_97-01/002-3_bach_kep.html


Wow, that's quite a harsh steaming critique of Rameau. I'd say that both counterpoint and chordal theory have their places. Rameau offers a particular view of how to imagine vertical harmony but I don't think it works solely by itself in isolation of other compositional thinking. It's better than 12-tone compositional theory though!

This quote amuses me; using an example of Rameau's own music he says, "At first hearing, it sounds nice, and you can be fooled by Rameau, who is skillful at creating harmonic sound-effects and putting short counterpoint imitations in." This is someone who is critiquing Rameau over they way he chooses to compose rather than the quality of how the end result affects the listener. I rather like Rameau, ok it's true that he wrote crap fugues (by crap I mean technically now very skilful or clever) but that's because he focuses on the emotional and harmonic effect on the listener rather than on the technical skill of fugal counterpoint. In some respects that made him quite modern for the time, as he stripped out complexity and went straight for feeling.

A friend of mine calls Rameau 'all style over substance'. Perhaps that's what this critique is getting at. He was an original, bigger picture composer with inspired melodic ideas rather than a philosophical, technically skilled one seeking the deeper meanings of complexity.


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## Klassik

I just got done listening to a Rameau harpsichord CD I brought some time back but never listened to. It's a Amadis/Naxos recording with Alan Cuckston performing _Pieces de clavecin_ (1724, rev. 1731), _Cinq pieces pour clavecin_ (1741), and _La Dauphine_ (1747). Wow, I really enjoyed those pieces. Of course, I generally enjoy Baroque harpsichord works, but these have a somewhat modern sound with the expected French lightness and wit. Anyway, I recommend these works for anyone who enjoys solo harpsichord music, whether it be older or more modern stuff.


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## millionrainbows

I read somewhere that Marcelle Meyer's Rameau was 'revelatory' (maybe it was here in this forum). Ok, then, here I go!

So far: OMG! What a tragedy that Glenn Gould did not record these! The music is wonderful, and Marcelle Meyer is, indeed, a revelation!


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## millionrainbows

Bach was an older-style thinker as far as theory, and he used the figured-bass method.

The book to read on this is "Essay on the True Art of Keyboard Playing" by C.P.E. Bach.

Even in the introduction of the book "Essay on the True Art of Keyboard Playing" by C.P.E. Bach, the authors admit that _Bach's thorough bass practice would become unwieldy as more chords were added to the harmonic collection._ Rameau's 'root system' was far smaller and easier to work with.

During the early eighteenth century, Jean-Phillipe Rameau articulated the modern notion of a chord, classifying basic musical objects based on their pitch-class content rather than their order or registral arrangement. Rameau implicitly suggested that three basic operations preserve the "chordal" or "harmonic" identity of a musical object: octave shifts, permutation (or reordering), and cardinality change (or note duplication). For instance, one can transform (C4, E4 G4) by reordering its notes to produce (E4, G4, C4), transposing the second note up an octave to produce (C4, E5, G4), or duplicating the third note to produce (C4, E4, G4,G4) - all without changing its right to be called a "C major chord." Furthermore, these transformations can be combined to produce an endless collection of objects, all representing the same chord: (E4, G4, C5), (G3, G4, C5, E4), (E2, G3, C4, E4, E5), and so on. To be a C major chord is simply to belong to this equivalency class - or in other words, to contain all and only the three pitch-classes C, E, and G. We can therefore represent the C major chord as the unordered set of pitch classes {C, E, G}. -Tymoczko, p. 36

I think figured bass is rather archaic unless one has an overview, and I think it's limited to that older style of music, and is really more of a "technique" which was used in lieu of harmonic/root thinking, which was not developed or accepted or used, whatever.

This figured-bass thinking was perhaps a method which worked its way into the stylistic arsenal of composers, and yes, they had to be handled in specific ways, but the abstracted convenience of thinking harmonically is still in evidence to modern analysts. Figured-bass tends to get bogged-down in voice-leading details which ignore a purer, freer abstract distillation of harmonic considerations. And as harmony got more complex, what happened to figured bass thinking? It failed, or rejected more complex harmony. Figured bass is an ideological artifact of a bygone way of thinking. We have bigger, more complex fish to fry.

A chord in all its inversions has the same root function (not bass note), and the same quality (major/minor).

Maybe in earlier times, it is treated differently...

In some convoluted sense, it could be said that since figured bass notation recognizes each inversion separately from a bass note (not a root function), that they are not "equivalent" in that sense.

WIK: Figured-bass numerals express distinct intervals in a chord only as they relate to the bass note (not a root function). They make no reference to the key of the progression (unlike Roman-numeral harmonic analysis).

Because that would be "harmonic thinking."


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## millionrainbows

More revelatory playing of Rameau by Marcelle Meyer! Recorded in 1946 and 1953. The 1946 stuff sounds like it was transferred from acetates, but is good. Her playing was maybe better back then. Very facile, lots of ornaments, sometimes a staccato touch. Her double-tapping is impeccable! It's what I imagine Glenn Gould could have done with these pieces.


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## Guest

Absolutely one of my very favourite composers. And yet...his music isn't 'easy'. Especially the stage works with their high ambitus in vocal lines and woodwinds. A very familiar stylistic trait of Rameau. But comparatively not a very accessible. Unlike Couperin:


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## millionrainbows

Rameau was who got me into opera.

Could Couperin do this?


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## flamencosketches

Well, y’all have piqued my interest. Where is a good place to start with Rameau? I’m not a big opera guy. Maybe harpsichord/piano music?


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## starthrower

flamencosketches said:


> Maybe harpsichord/piano music?


That would be my recommendation. Although I'm more of a Couperin fan based on the little I've listened to of both.


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## Guest

flamencosketches said:


> Well, y'all have piqued my interest. Where is a good place to start with Rameau? I'm not a big opera guy. Maybe harpsichord/piano music?


Not being an opera fan notwithstanding, I'd still consider _Les Indes Galantes_. I have a DVD


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## Bourdon

flamencosketches said:


> Well, y'all have piqued my interest. Where is a good place to start with Rameau? I'm not a big opera guy. Maybe harpsichord/piano music?


Try these


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## Mandryka

It's very trivial music.

The Marcel Meyer is well worth catching. And this one is every bit as nice, maybe nicer









Moving away from keyboard music, this is very agreeable, you can probably find it on YouTube, and indeed the Meyer and Cziffra.


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## flamencosketches

Lots of good recommendations, thanks. I'm looking especially at the Brüggen/Kujiken/Leonhardt (talk about a stacked lineup...!) and the Savall, and the Rousset looks good too. I listened to a bit of this:






...& thought it very good. I like the "Pièces de clavecin en concerts" the most of what I've heard.


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## Mandryka

Don't dismiss the keyboard music. The reason I say that is that there has been over the past 10 years or so quite a radical reappraisal of how to play it. The extrovert, motoric, virtuoso and dramatic approach has been to some extent abandoned for experiments with a more sensual and poetic style. The leader of this approach in Rameau, the _premier de cordée_ as Emanuel Macron would say, is Bertrand Cuiller. Cuiller reveals a Rameau imbued in _luxe, calme et volupté_. I was an a bit negative about Rameau's music and indeed his ideas, his philosophy, but I must say this CD prompted me to reappraise, to revise, my opinion slightly. While I still think that Rameau's music is utterly trivial and totally forgettable, I think that the Cuillier approach makes it a pleasant if indulgent momentary diversion.









That said, there is a really special "old fashioned" Rameau recording, a mythical iconic recording in fact, a recording so good that when you hear it you may well forget all others. It was made by Scott Ross, and it was I think his first recording. This is the one which made him explode into the world - and it is arguably his most rewarding achievement.

The performance style is full of passion and intensity and infectious energy, he has you humming and tapping your feet. The harpsichord is his usual one, at the castle in Assas, France, it is very attractively captured in the recording.


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## flamencosketches

^I'm not sure if your suggestions are ones I want to be following with this composer, considering you consider his music fundamentally "trivial" and "forgettable". That being said, you've piqued my interest with that Scott Ross, so I'll have to look into it.

Edit: That collection is extremely rare. Going for over €100. Not quite sure it'd be a worthy investment.


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## Guest

The instrumental music of Rameau is absolutely wonderful. It's the operas which aren't so accessible, IMO. So highly stylized and decorated and also quite dissonant for the age. But I absolutely adore this work for the stage by Rameau: my introduction to his operas. And this is the actual recording I have. Love the chopping action of the sculptor represented in the introduction!!


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## Mandryka

flamencosketches said:


> Edit: That collection is extremely rare. Going for over €100. Not quite sure it'd be a worthy investment.


It certainly would not! Let me know if you want the files.


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## NLAdriaan

I can recommend these two recordings. Bruggen is a trustworthy advocate of Rameau and he recorded orchestral suites, assembled from the operas. You can hear the stellar beauty of Rameau's music without the words. Currentzis made his recording from all separate pieces from Rameau's work with the passion we know from him. It is more extreme than Bruggen, but combined you will be well served. Sometimes you dive into Currentzis and Bruggen is there for the long term.

Both contain the piece (from 'les Boreades') with the single most beautiful title in musical history: _Entree pour les Muses, les Zéphyrs, les Saisons, les Heures et les Arts...._. Currentzis takes this piece at a very slow tempo, and makes it one of the most intense moving musical pieces I know. Currentzis own liner notes are also most inspiring.

Rameau absolutely deserves more airtime.


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## Jacck

Les Boreades is probably my favorite baroque opera (there is some strong competition from Purcell and Monteverdi)


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## Taggart

Very pleasant but he does tend to strut a little. In many ways, this is more of a 19th Century sound than Baroque. Heavy orchestration muffles the ornamentation.


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## Taggart

An oldie but goodie








This actually comes from one the Bach Guild Big Boxes. Really nice sound. Leonhardt does a fine job on the harpsichord and it is nice to hear the harpsichord in concert. A lovely set of pieces - spritely and delicious.


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## millionrainbows

flamencosketches said:


> Edit: That collection is extremely rare. Going for over €100. Not quite sure it'd be a worthy investment.


That's typical of Mandryka. Always rare and out of print. :lol:


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## philoctetes

Taggart said:


> An oldie but goodie
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This actually comes from one the Bach Guild Big Boxes. Really nice sound. Leonhardt does a fine job on the harpsichord and it is nice to hear the harpsichord in concert. A lovely set of pieces - spritely and delicious.


That's a good one, this is another


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## philoctetes

This is one of my favorite Herreweghe CDs but avoid his Indes Galantes highlights...


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## Ingélou

philoctetes said:


> This is one of my favorite Herreweghe CDs *but avoid his Indes Galantes highlights...*


Why?
(Just interested to know.)


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## philoctetes

Ingélou said:


> Why?
> (Just interested to know.)


An oldie but not a goodie? Some of those older (70-80s) historic performance recordings could be rough. Bruggen, Savall or Cuiller are all better. That budgert Bach cantata CD by Herreweghe is another one that didn't age well for me, though I like all his Bach otherwise...


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## Guest

*Jean Philippe Rameau*

I've recently discovered this fabulous opera from Rameau, "Nais", written when the composer was 66 years old and at the height of his power. WONDERFUL music. Just listen to the overture to get an idea of the vigour and originality:


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