# Complex Music Such as Classical



## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

I think part of the appeal of Ravel/Debussy for me is that they lack prominent hooks. Further, they are paired with a complex structure making it harder to fully grasp quickly and thus you don't tire of it as fast. Also, because of this complexity, it has something new to offer on repeated listenings.

Perhaps this is what is happening when people say music that is hard to get is the best.


Thoughts?


----------



## Jacck (Dec 24, 2017)

Captainnumber36 said:


> I think part of the appeal of this music for me is that it lacks prominent hooks. *Further, it is paired with a complex structure making it harder to fully grasp quickly and thus you don't tire of it as fast. Also, because of it's complexity, it has something new to offer on repeated listenings. Perhaps this is what is happening when people say music that is hard to get is the best.*
> 
> I think melodic and structural music lends itself to my favorite music such as Debussy and Ravel.
> 
> Thoughts?


I agree with this. I tire of simpler music quite fast. If there is a pop song I like, I will hear it 10-20 times, and it is gone for me, I no longer derive any pleasure from it. The complexity of classical music makes it last longer.


----------



## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

Ravel and Debussy are two of my favorite composers because their music seems to focus on creating atmosphere rather than song structures or melodic hooks. It never gets old for me!


----------



## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

The nature of great art in general is that it has a complexity that requires attention, patience, and work to get the most out of it. Music, painting, sculpture, poetry, drama, novels...the great ones last are are not easy to assimilate at first meeting, but they pay huge rewards for the person willing to make an effort. That's why pop songs are so ephemeral - especially those written in the past 20-30 years. The pop music of the 30s thru 60s are stunningly more complex and sophisticated than the moronic hip hop and rap music of today. Great music is like a great novel or movie - it has a complicated structure and takes you all over the place; it has a plot.

Unfortunately, most people today have very short attention spans, and thanks to our public schools have little appreciation of great novels, plays, or poetry - classical music isn't even on their agenda. Most people today like short, simple, even ugly songs. It's killed music in most churches and is slowly killing classical concerts. This is one topic I spend a lot (too much!) time pondering and reading about: The Closing of the American Mind, Slouching Towards Gomorrah, The Twilight of American Culture, The Devil's Pleasure Palace...heavy reading, and quite depressing.


----------



## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

Captainnumber36 said:


> I think part of the appeal of this music for me is that it lacks prominent hooks.


So does a lot of music outside of pop. Jazz for instance does not have "hooks."



> Further, it is paired with a complex structure making it harder to fully grasp quickly and thus you don't tire of it as fast.


Again there is other music which can fit this description, Indian Classical Music, for instance.



> Also, because of it's complexity, it has something new to offer on repeated listenings.


Western classical music has a specific kind of complexity, and it comes from a tradition of notated scores. There is vernacular music which has a different kind of complexity which developed over time through oral transmission - which, because it was not generated or transmitted through a written tradition is very difficult to notate because of the nuances of melody, harmony, and rhythm. In fact, I don't think it can successfully be notated, and will always require reliance on an oral teacher-student relationship to reproduce the music correctly.

This is different from the teacher-student relationship when learning Beethoven, e.g. There, the music itself is accurately portrayed in the notated score. What the teacher does is offer interpretative "icing on the cake," so to speak. For vernacular music, the music itself, at its most basic level, must be taught orally. A score is irrelevant and does not describe the music, in other than a very crude manner, how the music should sound.

There is a lot of music beyond Western Classical Music which is complex. But complexity is not in itself what makes music good or valuable.


----------



## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

One way in which music can be enjoyable is that each time you listen to it, you discover something new. That can happen in complex polyphonic music because there’s not just one melody and rhythm etc, there are many, and they’re all interacting, so there’s a lot going on. I doubt whether that can happen with simpler music.

One thing which I’ve learned about myself is that I enjoy discovering something which is so rich and full of meaning that I can’t really apprehend it without spending a lot of time exploring it, getting to know it. That’s one of the reasons I like complex music, classical or whatever.


----------



## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

Mandryka said:


> One way in which music can be enjoyable is that each time you listen to it, you discover something new. That can happen in complex polyphonic music because there's not just one melody and rhythm etc, there are many, and they're all interacting, so there's a lot going on. I doubt whether that can happen with simpler music.
> 
> One thing which I've learned about myself is that I enjoy discovering something which is so rich and full of meaning that I can't really apprehend it without spending a lot of time exploring it, getting to know it. That's one of the reasons I like complex music, classical or whatever.


If you ever get it, fully, at all.


----------



## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

SanAntone said:


> So does a lot of music outside of pop. Jazz for instance does not have "hooks."
> 
> Again there is other music which can fit this description, Indian Classical Music, for instance.
> 
> ...


- Lots of Jazz has hooks, like So What. Something like Black Saint/Sinner Lady or Bitches Brew doesn't have strong hooks.
- Being Hindu, I feel lots of Carantic Music sounds the same.
- I agree there are different types of complexity, but I outlined a very specific type.


----------



## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

A lot of classical and operatic music has hooks too, if we mean it as memorable melodies or motifs.


----------



## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

Captainnumber36 said:


> - Lots of Jazz has hooks, like So What. Something like Black Saint/Sinner Lady or Bitches Brew doesn't have strong hooks.
> - Being Hindu, I feel lots of Carantic Music sounds the same.
> - I agree there are different types of complexity, but I outlined a very specific type.


We disagree about what a "hook" is. 90% of "So What" (all jazz) is improvised solos - no hooks there. What you call the hook in "So What" is actually the melody.

Usually when people say "a lot of that kind of music sounds the same" it either means they are superficial listeners or they haven't heard very much of it. Since you say you are Hindu, you must have heard a significant amount of *Carnatic* music (not Carantic) or you are of Hindu extraction but were raised outside of India - or you are a superficial listener.

Indian Classical Music does not sound the same to me.

Your OP made what I consider spurious claims, but it isn't worth arguing over.


----------



## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

norman bates said:


> A lot of classical and operatic music has hooks too, if we mean it as memorable melodies or motifs.


Yes, it does. But not all of it.


----------



## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

Captainnumber36 said:


> - Lots of Jazz has hooks, like So What. Something like Black Saint/Sinner Lady or Bitches Brew doesn't have strong hooks.
> - Being Hindu, I feel lots of Carantic Music sounds the same.
> - I agree there are different types of complexity, but I outlined a very specific type.


Wikipedia's authoritative and indisputable definition of a hook:

'One definition of a hook is "a musical or lyrical phrase that stands out and is easily remembered." Definitions typically include some of the following: that a hook is repetitive, attention-grabbing, memorable, easy to dance to, and has commercial potential and lyrics. A hook has been defined as a "part of a song, sometimes the title or key lyric line, that keeps recurring." ... A hook can be either melodic or rhythmic'

I'm assuming you mean that 2 long-short note motif from high to low in "So What". It's a motif more than a hook, because it gets transposed. A hook is repeated without change in Pop Music usually. The motif in So What is a hook as much as the 4 note motif in Beethoven's 5th a hook. But do think it's a matter of interpretation. It could be the rhythm in the 2 note motif that is the hook.

A hook could also be an ostinato (repeated pattern). There could be a hook in this in the left hand:


----------



## Simon Moon (Oct 10, 2013)

Captainnumber36 said:


> I think part of the appeal of Ravel/Debussy for me is that they lack prominent hooks. Further, they are paired with a complex structure making it harder to fully grasp quickly and thus you don't tire of it as fast. Also, because of this complexity, it has something new to offer on repeated listenings.
> 
> Perhaps this is what is happening when people say music that is hard to get is the best.
> 
> Thoughts?


I completely agree with this.

One of the aspects of music I put very high on the list of attributes I look for in music, is complexity.

And it is one of the reasons why I enjoy 20th century, and especially post WWII classical music is due to its complexity.

The only other musical genres I listen to (progressive music and its many subgenres, and jazz in some of its subgenres), also have a high level of complexity.

Memorable melodies and music with hooks, is pretty much nonexistent on my list of things I look for in music.

And yes, I also agree with a lot of my favorite music, of the various genres I listen to, sometimes took me the longest for me to get into, but remain some of my favorites. They hold up the best on repeated listening.


----------



## Oldhoosierdude (May 29, 2016)

Bartok string quartets are that way for me. They reveal more with each listen.


----------



## BachIsBest (Feb 17, 2018)

SanAntone said:


> So does a lot of music outside of pop. Jazz for instance does not have "hooks."
> 
> Again there is other music which can fit this description, Indian Classical Music, for instance.
> 
> ...


The music is not fully portrayed in the notated score. It does rely on the teachings of someone schooled in the western classical music tradition. If not electronic orchestras would be a whole lot better at playing it. After all, electronic orchestras are perfect at reproducing algorithmically noted sound.


----------



## cheregi (Jul 16, 2020)

Probably my favorite relationship to develop with a piece of music is when something strikes me as simplistic and immediately-apprehendable on first listen, and only later returns to me as something engagingly complex that can stand up to repeated exposure - that is, the complexity has some subtlety to it. I think a lot of renaissance polyphony falls into this category, but also I hear a lot of Debussy this way, for example. It's for this reason that it took me a long time to get into Bach - all his complexity is so clearly on the surface, which typically for me signals that it _won't_ stand up to repeated listens. But I have begrudgingly accepted that Bach has both the in-your-face complexity _and_ the subtlety that I so value.


----------



## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

BachIsBest said:


> The music is not fully portrayed in the notated score. It does rely on the teachings of someone schooled in the western classical music tradition. If not electronic orchestras would be a whole lot better at playing it. After all, electronic orchestras are perfect at reproducing algorithmically noted sound.


Very good point.


----------



## juliante (Jun 7, 2013)

Captainnumber36 said:


> I think part of the appeal of Ravel/Debussy for me is that they lack prominent hooks. Further, they are paired with a complex structure making it harder to fully grasp quickly and thus you don't tire of it as fast. Also, because of this complexity, it has something new to offer on repeated listenings.
> 
> Perhaps this is what is happening when people say music that is hard to get is the best.
> 
> Thoughts?


I agree with your thoughts with regard to my enjoyment of classical music, to a certain limit of complexity! But with regard to other genres not so much for me, particularly one genre where the rhythms are generally much simple and direct and not complex, which reaches more directly to another part of my brain, the deeper more primitive (meant literally) part. And holds huge and long lasting appeal to me.


----------



## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

juliante said:


> I agree with your thoughts with regard to my enjoyment of classical music, to a certain limit of complexity! But with regard to other genres not so much for me, particularly one genre where the rhythms are generally much simple and direct and not complex, which reaches more directly to another part of my brain, the deeper more primitive (meant literally) part. And holds huge and long lasting appeal to me.


Interesting thought about the primitive nature of rhythm.


----------



## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Here's some music with primitive rhythms. Is it complex? I don't know. Is it classical? I don't care.


----------



## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

I think it takes more than primitive instincts to capture my attention.


----------



## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

And here's an example of some music which I think is in some real sense deep, and which is deep through its polyphonic complexity.


----------



## GucciManeIsTheNewWebern (Jul 29, 2020)

Jacck said:


> I agree with this. I tire of simpler music quite fast. If there is a pop song I like, I will hear it 10-20 times, and it is gone for me, I no longer derive any pleasure from it. The complexity of classical music makes it last longer.


I have a very different mindset from yours. Regardless of the song's complexity, I never feel like I've somehow mined the song to exhaustion and it loses its value after multiple listens. Songs never really get old for me and always retain their intrinsic value, but we all appreciate and listen to music and art in different ways.


----------



## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

And here's a very different sort of complexity -- not polyphony but overtone playing on a flute to produce a sort of heterophony. This sort of traditional Japanese heterophonic music is a significant inspiration for composers today.






(I remember someone saying on this forum that all traditional music is tonal, woodduck and millionrainbows maybe, this is one example which shows they were wrong.)


----------



## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

edited and deleted.


----------



## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

edited and deleted.


----------



## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

Bartok and Delius are also enjoyable for me in the same way. I find receptive drum/bass lines very annoying.


----------



## juliante (Jun 7, 2013)

Captainnumber36 said:


> Interesting thought about the primitive nature of rhythm.


Made without regard to actual science on this I should add...just a feeling.


----------



## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

juliante said:


> Made without regard to actual science on this I should add...just a feeling.


It makes sense. I believe the drum was one of the first instruments created by Indians?


----------



## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

Mandryka said:


> And here's a very different sort of complexity -- not polyphony but overtone playing on a flute to produce a sort of heterophony. This sort of traditional Japanese heterophonic music is a significant inspiration for composers today.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


what a magnificent instrument the Shakuhachi. The expressive richness of its tone is incredible.


----------



## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

What it shows for me is that conservatory conventions about flute technique -- which emphasise pure tones and no overblowing -- do more harm than good to music.


----------



## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

Mandryka said:


> What it shows for me is that conservatory conventions about flute technique -- which emphasise pure tones and no overblowing -- do more harm than good to music.


Yes, and it's the same with many instruments, the guitar, the trumpet, the clarinet to name a few. Classical music ideal in the study of the technique seems to be that of the perfect tone, purified from dirt and noise. Which is good for certain things, but than one hear these kind of things and realize how much expressive potential there is in certain instruments that is often very overlooked in classical music.


----------



## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

Mandryka said:


> And here's a very different sort of complexity -- not polyphony but overtone playing on a flute to produce a sort of heterophony. This sort of traditional Japanese heterophonic music is a significant inspiration for composers today.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Sure it's in the key of C minor in the flute part. It dances around a lot, but I believe it keeps implying C as the tonic, and G as dominant. I recall some oriental scales replace the 6th or 7th note of the scale, so it's not exactly C minor, even though it could have the triad. Also I recall they play the dominant note more than the tonic of the Western(ized) scale. The woman's part is in G minor.


----------



## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

Here's my example of complex music


----------



## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

And this, too


----------



## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

bump please to talk more.


----------

