# Royal Concertgebouw Orchestra elected



## rjansen (Dec 4, 2008)

Hey guys,

What do you think about the Royal Concertgebouw Orchestra being elected as "World's Greatest Symphony Orchestra"?
Being from Holland, and a great fan of the Orchestra, I love the orchestra. Another member tipped me about a great tribute site. They have articles, stories etc, but most interesting: they are giving away free downloads for Brahms Symphony no. 2!

This is the link: www.monteverdi.tv/rco


----------



## Atabey (Oct 8, 2008)

It's either them or Wiener Philharmoniker.To me they both are heads and shoulders above the competition.


----------



## marval (Oct 29, 2007)

They certainly are a very good orchestra, so I congratulate them as "World's Greatest Symphony Orchestra."


Margaret


----------



## PostMinimalist (May 14, 2008)

Nice one Emily (Benyon - Principal flute)!
Friend from RAM 1990.


----------



## World Violist (May 31, 2007)

I think it would be a very strong candidate indeed for the greatest orchestra in the world. I further agree that the Wiener Philharmoniker would be the other logical one for this title. My, aren't we an agreeable bunch today!


----------



## Kuhlau (Oct 1, 2008)

Can I cut against the grain of praise and say that what I've heard so far of this orchestra under Mariss Jansons underwhelms me? Perhaps I've been unfortunate in the recordings I've been exposed to, or perhaps I'm hearing something rather more special in the sound which Sir Simon Rattle continues to develop with the Berlin Philharmonic Orchestral, but either way, I await to be truly impressed.

FK


----------



## shsherm (Jan 24, 2008)

I have attended concerts of the Royal Concertgebouw, The Philharmonia, and The Chicago Symphony as well as many other orchestras. The best performances I ever heard were by the Chicago Symphony Orchestra.


----------



## LindenLea (Feb 4, 2007)

I think this a fair assessment of the RCO's quality over a long period of time, though I think it's very subjective and the award was given by a select few music critics, who is honestly to say that any one great orchestra is greater than the rest? That would really to some extent depend on the repertoire they are playing at any given time, it's very much horses for courses. As a very general rule (and this is just a personal theory before anyone jumps down my throat!)I always think that Czech orchestras give the finest most authentic performances of Czech music, British orchestras give the finest performances of British music, French orchestras give the best sounding performances of French music, Russian orchestras give the...and so on and so forth. It's only really in the vast Austro/German repertoire that there would perhaps be more of a debate as to 'the greatest' between various European/American orchestras.

Incidentally, on the subject of the Concertgebouw, I don't know if this has been discussed here before as up until today I honestly haven't been around for so long, if it has then please do forgive me! There is a very generous free-download offer being presented to commemorate the 120th anniversary of the orchestra. Here is the link to the site

http://kco.radio4.nl/?lang=en

All that is required is a very simple registration process where you give your email address etc, and bingo you are within a couple of minutes ready to download, entirely free of charge, 10 wonderful symphonies all performed by the RCO under some of the world's great conductors. I've downloaded all of these, and listened to them all at least twice over the past weeks. The Brahms, Bruckner, Dvorak and Mahler are especially fine, all of the performances are live ones, the Brahms and Dvorak being the best two in my opinion. These free recordings are available only until the 31st of December 2008, so you possibly need to get your skates on!

The 10 symphonies available are :-

Franz Schubert - Symphony no. 8 'Unfinished'
Royal Concertgebouw Orchestra conducted by Nikolaus Harnoncourt (recorded in 1997).

Ludwig van Beethoven - Symphony no. 2
Royal Concertgebouw Orchestra conducted by Maris Jansons (recorded in 2004)

Felix Mendelssohn - Symphony no. 4 'Italian'
Royal Concertgebouw Orchestra conducted by Kirill Kondrashin (recorded in 1979).

César Franck - Symphony in D minor
Royal Concertgebouw Orchestra conducted by Mariss Jansons (recorded in 2004).

Gustav Mahler - Symphony no. 1
Royal Concertgebouw Orchestra conducted by Leonard Bernstein (recorded in 1987).

Antonin Dvorák - Symphony no. 8
Royal Concertgebouw Orchestra conducted by Carlo Maria Giulini (recorded in 1990).

Camille Saint-Saëns - Symphony no. 3 'Organ'
Royal Concertgebouw Orchestra conducted by Myung Whun Chung (recorded in 2005).

Jean Sibelius - Symphony no. 2
Royal Concertgebouw Orchestra conducted by Mariss Jansons (recorded in 2005).

Anton Bruckner - Symphony no. 8
Royal Concertgebouw Orchestra conducted by Bernard Haitink (recorded in 2005).

Johannes Brahms - Symphony no. 2
Royal Concertgebouw Orchestra conducted by Mariss Jansons (recorded in 2004).


----------



## Atabey (Oct 8, 2008)

Kuhlau said:


> Can I cut against the grain of praise and say that what I've heard so far of this orchestra under Mariss Jansons underwhelms me? Perhaps I've been unfortunate in the recordings I've been exposed to, or perhaps I'm hearing something rather more special in the sound which Sir Simon Rattle continues to develop with the Berlin Philharmonic Orchestral, but either way, I await to be truly impressed.
> 
> FK


Did you hear Shostakovich - Symphony No.7 ?
Also it is not Concertgebouw's way to overwhelm.They are not a powerful orchestra.To hear one,yes Berliner Philharmoniker is a great choice.Concertgebouworkest and Wiener Philharmoniker are orchestras with unique sound and character that is charming rather than overwhelming.


----------



## Chi_townPhilly (Apr 21, 2007)

For the record, the origin of this list is a survey of made by _Gramophone_ magazine, ostensibly polling music critics of varied geographical regions. The list has circulated elsewhere in the Classical Music message board community, and is reiterated here:
Concertgebouw/Amsterdam
Berlin Philharmonic
Vienna Philharmonic
London Symphony Orchestra
Chicago Symphony Orchestra
Bavarian Radio Symphony Orchestra/Munich
Cleveland Orchestra
Los Angeles Philharmonic
Budapest Festival Orchestra
Dresden Staatskapelle
Boston Symphony Orchesta
New York Philharmonic
San Francisco Symphony Orchestra
Mariinsky Theatre Orchestra/St. Petersburg
Russian National Orchestra/Moscow
St. Petersburg Philharmonic
Leipzig Gewandhaus Orchestra
Metropolitan Opera Orchestra/New York
Saito Kinen Orchestra/Japan
Czech Philharmonic

Two points: 1) Your humble dilettante (me) wouldn't presume to pass judgement on a ranking of the world's best orchestras. The musicianship required to be on the last desk of any of the instrumental sections of these ensembles is so far beyond my understanding as to make such an effort ludicrous. However, not only would one need musical acumen, one would also have to hear these orchestras live, preferably several times, in order to come up with informed conclusions. 
2) Having said that, I was surprised most by the following results: a: only one London band on the list, b: the Cleveland Orchestra cracking the top 10 (it had seemed to be that critics couldn't direct enough brickbats, rightly or [probably] wrongly at _their_ Music Director Franz Welser-Möst), and c: pleasantly surprised by the mention of the MET orchestra... and an acknowledgement that James Levine's reputation for having elevated the standards for this group now seems pretty much universally confirmed.


----------



## Kuhlau (Oct 1, 2008)

Chi_town/Philly said:


> Two points: 1) Your humble dilettante (me) wouldn't presume to pass judgement on a ranking of the world's best orchestras. The musicianship required to be on the last desk of any of the instrumental sections of these ensembles is so far beyond my understanding as to make such an effort ludicrous. However, not only would one need musical acumen, one would also have to hear these orchestras live, preferably several times, in order to come up with informed conclusions.
> 2) Having said that, I was surprised most by the following results: a: only one London band on the list, b: the Cleveland Orchestra cracking the top 10 (it had seemed to be that critics couldn't direct enough brickbats, rightly or [probably] wrongly at _their_ Music Director Franz Welser-Möst), and c: pleasantly surprised by the mention of the MET orchestra... and an acknowledgement that James Levine's reputation for having elevated the standards for this group now seems pretty much universally confirmed.


Excellent points, all. 

FK


----------



## LindenLea (Feb 4, 2007)

With reference to your point about there only being one London orchestra on the list ChiTown/Philly, I must say that I am slightly suspicious of any list of the world's 'great orchestras' which does not include the BBC Symphony Orchestra, not only in it's Top 20 but I would suggest in it's Top 10. Their incredible versatily and stamina (particularly during the summer months and the 'Proms' season, where they are required to pretty much be on call for two solid months and faultlessly master everything from Haydn symphonies to the most excruciating contemporary BBC commissions) is legendary, and surely a unique undertaking.


----------



## Kuhlau (Oct 1, 2008)

Another good point. Well made, LindenLea.

FK


----------



## Andy Loochazee (Aug 2, 2007)

These free recordings by the Concertgebouw came up under an earlier thread here (2-3 months ago?). Just about every music Board I know of has listed this facility. As noted by one member here, one difficulty is that the symphonies are in one long piece, which can involve some fiddly adjustments using music recording software if you want the separate movements. Secondly, they're not (as far as I know) recognised CD versions of the various works, with a proper CD label etc. They are simply live recordings done at various times. This is not to say that they're not otherwise very good or even excellent. However, I listened to several of them but can't say that I was that impressed so as to reject any of my current favourite recordings.

The latest Gramophone list of top orchestras has also done the rounds on forums. A common criticsm is that the jury is too European weighted, and there are too many Brits on the panel. I must say that I'm singularly unimpressed with lists of this nature. I'm far more interested in smaller scale orchestras which don't get a look-in compared with the likes of the mighty Concertgebouw, BPO, VPO, LSO and CSO etc. Orchestras such as the Lucerne Festival or Budapest Festival Orchestra or Scottish Symphony Orchestra (to mention just a few off the top of my head) are just as good if not far better in my estimation. I also agree that the BBC SO is extremely good. 

Apart from that, I reckon that on most home hi-fi systems (most of which mainly fall into the budget category) it's pure self-kidology to assert that any one of these big orchestras sounds a lot better than any other. No doubt if all the big orchestras were all lined up in a concert hall, one after the other, it would be possible to discern possibly important differences, but for the home listener (using typical hi-fit kit) they all sound much the same these days.


----------



## LindenLea (Feb 4, 2007)

I think that is very true. The standard these days is so high that it is nitpicking of the most obsessive variety to try and find differences between the finest professional orchestras. If they did a list of the Top 100 you would still in my view be hard pushed to hear much difference in quality of playing between the 99th best and the 2nd best. I often attend concerts by the Halle, the BBC Philharmonic, and the Manchester Camerata (none of whom are on the list) at Bridgewater Hall in Manchester, and I frequently leave the hall after a barnstorming performance of something or other believing that it could not possibly be done better by anyone, anywhere, regardless or not whether they are featured on some list or other!

The Concertgebouw live performances are not perhaps right out of the top drawer as you say, but they are _free_ and they feature some fine conductors. 3 or 4 of them are well worth repeated playing in my view.


----------



## Atabey (Oct 8, 2008)

Chi_town/Philly said:


> [*]Concertgebouw/Amsterdam
> [*]Berlin Philharmonic
> [*]Vienna Philharmonic
> [*]London Symphony Orchestra
> ...


OK,this list contains choices that are laughable to me.Budapest Festival and Los Angeles Philharmonic are better than Staatskapelle Dresden...What is even more hilarious Mariinsky Theatre orchestra is there (better placed than Leipzig Gewandhaus) and no mention of mighty St Petersburg Philharmonic.

Well to start with i agree one must hear an orchestra live repeatedly to gain complete insight over their virtousity.Nowadays with big labels like EMI,DGG or Decca hesitant to spend lot of money on big recordings,listeners started to possess the cahnce of hearing these orchestras live as they started to run their own labels which captures them in their concerts.

I see no way for Budapest Festival and Los Angeles Philharmonic to be a better orchestra than Staatskapelle.They lack the unique sound and character this mighty German orchestra possess.Neither they are superbly virtuosic.In their recordings i buy i do not hear anything different in Los Angeles Philharmonic than other U.S. orchestras like Pittsburgh Symphony or Seattle Symphony.A capable orchestra dutifully going over scores.I doubt they play better in live concerts than in studio conditions.Budapest Festival's Mahler recordings with Ivan Fischer contains some heartfelt playing which i admire but there are mistakes and blunders in playing here,there and everywhere.Staatskapelle Dresden on the other hand have a unique sound and character,they play passionately and they play the most difficult pieces composers like R.Strauss,Bruckner etc. have to offer with little or no mistakes,in their recorded concerts.

In my opinion;Kirov Orchestra and St Petersburg Philharmonic also goes in the way of orchestra that is said to be lesser.I hear Philharmonic to be an orchestra of more distinctive sound and also in the home territory of both (Shostakovich):Kirov makes blunders,Philharmonic plays perfectly (on record).


----------



## Guest (Dec 14, 2008)

*LinenLea* I d/l all the RCO Sym and was very pleased with the final result, 
i,e putting them all onto CD The higher bit rate makes a phenomenal difference compared to the terrible quality of normal mp3 d/l, I squeezed some of the shorter ones onto a single CD and made my own covers, They have been listened to on various systems and receive 10 out of 10.
Has any one else put them onto CD ??


----------



## Kuhlau (Oct 1, 2008)

Why did you make your own CD covers, Andante? These were supplied on the site for those who, like you, wanted to burn the music to disc.

FK


----------



## Guest (Dec 16, 2008)

Kuhlau said:


> Why did you make your own CD covers, Andante? These were supplied on the site for those who, like you, wanted to burn the music to disc.
> 
> FK


Sorry for not being clearer, I mean the ones that I squeezed 2 Sym onto + the Bruckner that took 2 CDs i'e Mov 1.2.3 on one CD and 4th mov + Saint Saens on the 2nd CD.
Did you d/l them Kuhlau?


----------



## Kuhlau (Oct 1, 2008)

I did indeed, sir. Although, I've only listened so far to five out of the ten.

Incidentally (and not wishing to repeat my posts wholesale from one classical music forum to another), here are some more of _my_ thoughts on the Royal Concertgebouw Orchestra's 'win': The World's 20 Greatest Orchestras.

FK


----------



## Moscow-Mahler (Jul 8, 2010)

Yes, "Gramophone" underestimated Staatskapelle Dresden...
As for Jansons and RCO - try his Poulenc! His Alpinesinfonie is also ver good. Maybe he is too gentle in Mahler.
BTW, I've heard that RCO management wanted Christian Thielemann, but the orchestra members chose Jansons. Is it true??


----------



## Brahmsian Colors (Sep 16, 2016)

The Concertgebouw Orchestra of Amsterdam, presently the Royal Concertgebouw, has been my favorite symphony orchestra for many years. It's the one orchestra I would love to have the chance see and hear live before I pass on. Does anyone know if and when it might be scheduled to appear in Florida in the near future? Kind thanks in advance.


----------



## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Haydn67 said:


> The Concertgebouw Orchestra of Amsterdam, presently the Royal Concertgebouw, has been my favorite symphony orchestra for many years. It's the one orchestra I would love to have the chance see and hear live before I pass on. Does anyone know if and when it might be scheduled to appear in Florida in the near future? Kind thanks in advance.


I keep their schedule in my dairy, noting in the near future as far as I can see.
Will keep looking though an let you know.


----------



## sloth (Jul 12, 2013)

Personally, I don't have an absolute favourite. My choice for an orchestra over another depends mainly on repertoire and conductor. 
However... What in your opinion makes the RCO the best?


----------



## Brahmsian Colors (Sep 16, 2016)

Pugg said:


> I keep their schedule in my dairy, noting in the near future as far as I can see.
> Will keep looking though an let you know.


I appreciate that very much. Again, my sincere thanks.:tiphat:


----------



## Brahmsian Colors (Sep 16, 2016)

sloth said:


> Personally, I don't have an absolute favourite. My choice for an orchestra over another depends mainly on repertoire and conductor.
> However... What in your opinion makes the RCO the best?


I have quite a few recordings of the Concertgebouw Orchestra under Mengelberg, Van Beinum and Haitink. The descriptive words that most come to my mind are harmonious, balanced and polished. Of course, it is difficult to deny the influence the hall they play in (the Concertgebouw) has had on the overall perception of sound. There frequently seems to be a richness of tonal color, combined with a wonderful, extended sense of ambient decay in the sound of instruments, especially horns, woodwinds and strings. I realize if I ever have the opportunity to hear the orchestra play here, away from their home, I will miss the measure of very fine acoustics imparted by the Concertgebouw, but not the quality of play associated with one of the world's truly exceptional instrumental ensembles.


----------



## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

How much is the orchestra and its inherited traditions and how much is their chief conductor? Where will the RCO be after a few years of Gatti? Or the BPO when Petrenko gets there? The LSO under Gergiev was not quite the same orchestra as when Colin Davis was in charge and much of the credit for the Met Opera Orchestra can be given to James Levine.


----------



## sloth (Jul 12, 2013)

thanks for the great comment, unfortunately I can only rely on recordings...


----------



## Brahmsian Colors (Sep 16, 2016)

sloth said:


> thanks for the great comment, unfortunately I can only rely on recordings...


Until or unless I actually see and hear the Royal Concertgebouw in person, I too will have to continue relying on those recordings.


----------



## pcnog11 (Nov 14, 2016)

Chi_townPhilly said:


> For the record, the origin of this list is a survey of made by _Gramophone_ magazine, ostensibly polling music critics of varied geographical regions. The list has circulated elsewhere in the Classical Music message board community, and is reiterated here:
> Concertgebouw/Amsterdam
> Berlin Philharmonic
> Vienna Philharmonic
> ...


I am surprise to learn that Royal Philharmonic is not on the list and CSO is the top American orchestra. Perhaps it has changed since then. Is this an annual list? Does anyone have an update?


----------



## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

The Royal Philharmonic has probably not been in the top 2 in London since the Philharmonia was founded over 60 years ago.


----------



## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Haydn67 said:


> Until or unless I actually see and hear the Royal Concertgebouw in person, I too will have to continue relying on those recordings.


And they made a lot of those recordings.
The live Christmas matinee are sought off world wide for and sold for extreme prices.


----------

