# The music of Herr Furtwangler



## Lord Lance (Nov 4, 2013)

As some of y'all may know, 'tis Herr Furtwangler Grand Month [HFGM] month.

Accordingly, I plan to play the following recordings in the morning and evening later today:










Without the En Saga as the disc in Membran box set does not include it.










{without the prelude since in the Membran box set it isn't included}


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## Albert7 (Nov 16, 2014)

Awesome, I am very very supportive of you doing this project... Anything I can do to help you out?


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## Lord Lance (Nov 4, 2013)

Albert7 said:


> Awesome, I am very very supportive of you doing this project... Anything I can do to help you out?


Not really. I am just nervous if I can get accustomed to the sound and not give up midway.

Thanks for asking, Albert!


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## Lord Lance (Nov 4, 2013)

Albert7 said:


> On TinyChat, bear is now featuring this lovely symphonic recording. Very good mono I think?


Yes. Most probably. A live recording from 1954 of Furtwangler? Seems entirely unlikely.


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## Albert7 (Nov 16, 2014)

Sounds good... hopefully you can post up your thoughts on Furty in your blog... remember that people really enjoy reading it quite a bit.


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## Lord Lance (Nov 4, 2013)

Albert7 said:


> Sounds good... hopefully you can post up your thoughts on Furty in your blog... remember that people really enjoy reading it quite a bit.


LOL. You and.... the bushes?


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## Albert7 (Nov 16, 2014)

Lord Lance said:


> LOL. You and.... the bushes?


As the folks say... A bear in the hand is worth two in the bushes.


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## Lord Lance (Nov 4, 2013)

Albert7 said:


> As the folks say... A bear in the hand is worth two in the bushes.


Does that mean - One bear in the hand = two bears in the bushes?

If so, why is the bear in hand of same value as the two in the bush? Bear discrimination?


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## Albert7 (Nov 16, 2014)

Lord Lance said:


> Does that mean - One bear in the hand = two bears in the bushes?
> 
> If so, why is the bear in hand of same value as the two in the bush? Bear discrimination?


You awaken and haven't heard your daily Furty record?  I expect a new review by the end of the day, Lord Lance.


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## Albert7 (Nov 16, 2014)

Tonight we get a walloping dose of this:


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## Lord Lance (Nov 4, 2013)

Albert7 said:


> You awaken and haven't heard your daily Furty record?  I expect a new review by the end of the day, Lord Lance.


Listening to this:

*MANFRED OVERTURE*


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## Lord Lance (Nov 4, 2013)

Albert7 said:


> Pumping out this one tonight for the TinyChat crowd:


Thanks for the share.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Herr Furtwängler as a composer never knew the meaning of the word "pithy".

Gee I wonder who could have influenced him? :lol::lol::lol:


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## Lord Lance (Nov 4, 2013)

hpowders said:


> Herr Furtwängler as a composer never knew the meaning of the word "pithy".
> 
> Gee I wonder who could have influenced him? :lol::lol::lol:


Folks like Mahlerian and PetrB can decide if a short story writer was trying The Wheel of Time series-eqsue novels. i.e. Not enough material for epics.


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## Lord Lance (Nov 4, 2013)

Listening to this:


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## Albert7 (Nov 16, 2014)

Lord Lance said:


> Listening to this:


Ooofffff that painting looks like a terrible Auerbach!


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## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

hpowders said:


> Herr Furtwängler as a composer never knew the meaning of the word "pithy".
> 
> Gee I wonder who could have influenced him? :lol::lol::lol:


Are you referring to Bruckner, Wagner, or Mahler?

He disliked Mahler's music, generally.


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## Lord Lance (Nov 4, 2013)

Mahlerian said:


> Are you referring to Bruckner, Wagner, or Mahler?
> 
> He disliked Mahler's music, generally.


How interesting. Yet another conductor who was passionate about Bruckner but disliked Mahler.


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## Albert7 (Nov 16, 2014)

Lord Lance said:


> Listening to this:


Any chance whether you will provide on what you thought about this recording? I am curious honestly.


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## Albert7 (Nov 16, 2014)

Mahlerian said:


> Are you referring to Bruckner, Wagner, or Mahler?
> 
> He disliked Mahler's music, generally.


I am curious because I really do think that Furtwangler's anti-Semitism (sp?) caused him to not favor Mahler at all. This is one of the reasons why I am not always enthused about his conducting because of that cultural bias. But I need to research this aspect a lot more.

His obsession with Bruckner confirms to me how much Furtwangler was ingrained in his Nazism.

"The initial rise to power of the Nazis was welcomed by Furtwängler, as by many other conservatives in Germany. Opposed to the perceived radicalism and immorality of the Weimar Republic, and drawn to the order and 'German values' that the Nazis promised to provide, the conductor hoped that the Nazi party would increase pay and job security for the nation's musicians, and focus on developing the prestige and pre-eminence of the German musical tradition. As the director of the bankrupt Berlin Philharmonic, he welcomed the Nazis' sense of urgency over the state of the nation's arts.

Furtwängler was by no means an ideal or self-evident puppet for the Nazis; throughout his career, he made it clear that it was his desire for beautiful music, not the desire to gain political favour, that motivated his decisions. On the one hand, he was in many ways a conservative man, something that found favour with the Party. In the midst of the experimental and avant-garde 1920s, he publicly avowed his distaste for modern music such as swing, jazz, and atonal music. On the other hand, he did not ignore musical talent for the sake of these convictions. Thus, he agreed to premiere Arnold Schoenberg's modernist Variations for Orchestra op. 31 in Berlin in 1928. He employed many Jewish musicians in his orchestra, and maintained friendships with members of the Jewish German elite. In 1933, however, an era began in which the separation of art and politics became simply impossible."


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## Lord Lance (Nov 4, 2013)

Listened to this:

Sibelius' En Saga [Furtwangler/BPO]


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## Albert7 (Nov 16, 2014)

Lord Lance said:


> Listened to this:
> 
> Sibelius' En Saga [Furtwangler/BPO]


That's wonderful. Do you have the album cover and review for this particular recording soon?


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## Lord Lance (Nov 4, 2013)

Albert7 said:


> That's wonderful. Do you have the album cover and review for this particular recording soon?


There are plenty. Depends on your edition entirely. Here's one:


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## Albert7 (Nov 16, 2014)

Okay but perhaps have you looked further into Furtwangler's connections with The Third Reich and his notions of power? For me, that is a key element into why he didn't have much interest in conducting Mahler's music?


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## ArtMusic (Jan 5, 2013)

Lord Lance said:


> Yes. Most probably. A live recording from 1954 of Furtwangler? Seems entirely unlikely.


That just sounded typical 1950s big orchestra style that makes a Brahms symphony sound even more heavy that it should be. So not for me. I prefer a lighter early Romantic interpretation, as Brahms himself would have likely preferred, as Brahms considered himself a Classicist (despite obvious Romanticism).


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## Lord Lance (Nov 4, 2013)

Albert7 said:


> Okay but perhaps have you looked further into Furtwangler's connections with The Third Reich and his notions of power? For me, that is a key element into why he didn't have much interest in conducting Mahler's music?


Pish-posh! His life is irrelevant..... only the beauty of his music!


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## papsrus (Oct 7, 2014)

Lord Lance said:


> Pish-posh! His life is irrelevant..... only the beauty of his music!


I just brushed through his Wiki page to see what they had to say, and it seems to be chock full of descriptions of his distaste for, and opposition to, the Nazis. Regardless, I wouldn't necessarily conclude that his supposed dislike of Mahler's music indicates antisemitism. (You did not make that connection, I should emphasize).

Perhaps Wiki is misinformed or the entry concocted by revisionists. It seems pretty unequivocal on the subject.

Apologies for distracting from the musical discussion.


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## Albert7 (Nov 16, 2014)

Lord Lance said:


> Pish-posh! His life is irrelevant..... only the beauty of his music!


For me, that is totally key... you can't just simply pooh pooh an entire life of a conductor and listen to his music only. In fact, context of how the conductor acts in his private life informs the method of his own conducting and the way that he directs the orchestra in fact. Biographical elements will inform the choice of his own selection of pieces that he wants to lead as well.

I am hoping that you will get a chance to reassess Furtwangler's legacy in light of his personal/public life, seriously. The social context of his conducting will help to illuminate everything about his own recordings and maybe you can gain something further there.


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## Lord Lance (Nov 4, 2013)

A coloration... at best. Agree to disagree, Albert Post-Modern Prankster.


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## Albert7 (Nov 16, 2014)

Lord Lance said:


> A coloration... at best. Agree to disagree, Albert Post-Modern Prankster.


Not kidding around here. If you really want to actually study Furtwangler, I suggest to you some actual reading on his life to see what he is all about. You can't just simply listen to the music and ignore his life completely... that's like eating sushi without fish which doesn't make sense.

I suggest that you edify your journey by perusing this fine tome.









And you can order it from Amazon to help yourself out. It's even has a Kindle edition too.

http://www.amazon.com/Devils-Music-Master-Controversial-Furtwangler-ebook/dp/B0083TRBAC/ref=sr_1_3?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1426102173&sr=1-3&keywords=furtwangler

I really hope that you reconsider how you are approaching your listening month honestly.


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## SiegendesLicht (Mar 4, 2012)

I have just realized I do not own a single Furtwangler recording - a regrettable omission which I intend to correct soon.


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## Albert7 (Nov 16, 2014)

SiegendesLicht said:


> I have just realized I do not own a single Furtwangler recording - a regrettable omission which I intend to correct soon.


For a wonderful introduction to Furtwangler's rather storied career I suggest the following box set as a good start:









21 discs which cover the diverse range of his conducting except for Mahler apparently.


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## Lord Lance (Nov 4, 2013)

Albert7 said:


> For a wonderful introduction to Furtwangler's rather storied career I suggest the following box set as a good start:
> 
> View attachment 66104
> 
> ...


I would've agreed if not for the poor sound which beginners would most likely shriek in horror at. The remastering is not well done. Lazy job by blokes at EMI.

Rather:


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## Albert7 (Nov 16, 2014)

True, Lord Lance... but I feel that the EMI recordings despite the lesser and variable sound quality would be a more affordable and easier to find gateway to the world of Furtwangler than hunting down the rather more obscure Audite box set here. And you wouldn't want to miss the EMI Tristan und Isolde with Flagstad which is a treasure to behold.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Albert7 said:


> For me, that is totally key... *you can't just simply pooh pooh an entire life of a conductor and listen to his music only. In fact, context of how the conductor acts in his private life informs the method of his own conducting and the way that he directs the orchestra in fact.* Biographical elements will inform the choice of his own selection of pieces that he wants to lead as well.
> 
> I am hoping that you will get a chance to reassess Furtwangler's legacy in light of his personal/public life, seriously. The *social context of his conducting will help to illuminate everything about his own recordings* and maybe you can gain something further there.


This is going a bit too far. The relationship of an artist's biography to his art are complex and often indecipherable. No knowledge of a conductor's personal life, and particularly his politics, can "explain" the "method of his conducting" or give us reason to "reassess" his "legacy." An artist's "legacy" is his art, which either speaks to us or fails to speak to us. It may be interesting to know what artists think about what they do, or to learn of experiences in their lives which affect their artistic choices, but what we finally have is the product of their work which must be evaluated on its own terms.

I do know a bit about Furtwangler the man, and it's interesting, but it does not go one millimeter toward explaining why his interpretations of certain works are as powerful as they are, and it neither adds to nor detracts from that power. The personal qualities of the artist which inform his conducting were formed by such a myriad of factors, most of them inaccessible to our inquiry and even perhaps to his own introspection, as to defeat in advance any attempt to "explain" him by means of them. Such attempts will always be simplistic and as often as not go badly astray. In the end, they are unimportant and unnecessary to a meaningful experience and comprehension of his art.


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## superhorn (Mar 23, 2010)

Whatever his faults, Furtwangler was unquestionably one of the greatest conductors of all time . He could be erratic at times, but his greatest performances, many of which has fortunately been preserved on recordings , are among the most inspiring and unforgettable anyone could ever imagine .
The only work of his I'm familiar with is the sprawling 2nd symphony , and it's a work of genuine stature . I've heard a DG performance by the composer ,long ago on LP, and the Barenboim/CSO one on Teldec , and would like to hear more .
No one who loves classical music should miss his recordings , even if you don't always like them . 
Not to mention every aspiring young conductor . 
The issue of Furtwangler's remaining in Germany under the Nazis is a thorny one, but one thing is certain, he was NOT an anti-semite and did much to help Jewish musicians to escape Germany , at great personal risk to himself .


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## Albert7 (Nov 16, 2014)

superhorn said:


> Whatever his faults, Furtwangler was unquestionably one of the greatest conductors of all time . He could be erratic at times, but his greatest performances, many of which has fortunately been preserved on recordings , are among the most inspiring and unforgettable anyone could ever imagine .
> The only work of his I'm familiar with is the sprawling 2nd symphony , and it's a work of genuine stature . I've heard a DG performance by the composer ,long ago on LP, and the Barenboim/CSO one on Teldec , and would like to hear more .
> No one who loves classical music should miss his recordings , even if you don't always like them .
> Not to mention every aspiring young conductor .
> The issue of Furtwangler's remaining in Germany under the Nazis is a thorny one, but one thing is certain, he was NOT an anti-semite and did much to help Jewish musicians to escape Germany , at great personal risk to himself .


Indeed... that is why any further understanding of Furtwangler needs to mirror the complexity of the man. I was suggesting that bear look into the conductor not as a one-dimensional hero-worship that he is trying to foist upon himself but to see the man for what he is. Or else this will become no more different than an Ayn Rand-like fawning approach.


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## Lord Lance (Nov 4, 2013)

The thing is Albert, even if he was part of camps or the one to give the go-ahead for mass beheading/torture chambers even that would be irrelevant to my _love _for him. I do not *worship *him. Even if he were a serial killer. I'd just find it fascinating.


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## Albert7 (Nov 16, 2014)

Lord Lance said:


> The thing is Albert, even if he was part of camps or the one to give the go-ahead for mass beheading/torture chambers even that would be irrelevant to my _love _for him. I do not *worship *him. Even if he were a serial killer. I'd just find it fascinating.


Ummm... that wasn't the point about whether it was a hero-worship or not... I was trying to refine your thoughts of the complexity of the humanity that Furtwangler was trying to encompass... The point being that you have to examine historical constructs in order to ascertain the maximal understanding of how his conducting is contextualized.


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## Lord Lance (Nov 4, 2013)

*Herr Furtwangler*



Albert7 said:


> Ummm... that wasn't the point about whether it was a hero-worship or not... I was trying to refine your thoughts of the complexity of the humanity that Furtwangler was trying to encompass... The point being that you have to examine historical constructs in order to ascertain the maximal understanding of how his conducting is contextualized.


I let the music speak for Furtwangler's vision and purposes. I have been doing the placing the work in a framework based on read information and it is indeed entirely cognitive bias.


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## Albert7 (Nov 16, 2014)

Lord Lance said:


> I let the music speak for Furtwangler's vision and purposes. I have been doing the placing the work in a framework based on read information and it is indeed entirely cognitive bias.


Yes, but the music needs its context in social history. Perusing Furtwangler's tracks without any understanding of how it came to existence would be a moot point, wouldn't it? We wouldn't want to do the same for Bernstein's recorded legacy either, do we?


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## Lord Lance (Nov 4, 2013)

Agree to disagree.


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## Albert7 (Nov 16, 2014)

Albert7 said:


> Late evening and bear puts this piece on for us to hear:


Quick notes here... really great movement in the piece but I still prefer the von Karajan 1963 cycle version for this symphony. However, it is marvelous to be able to experience Beethoven freshly again.


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## Lord Lance (Nov 4, 2013)

Good job, Albert! The more I read of Furtwangler, the more teary-eyed his interpretations and life make me. 

Of course I kid. I don't cry.

Fine, his 1944 Eroica made me slightly teary-eyed. 

And his Schubert 9 from 1944 is truly soul-shattering..... I never thought Tennstedt's BBC Legends Schubert 9 could be matched. I might cry for this one.


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## Lord Lance (Nov 4, 2013)

Albert7 said:


> Quick notes here... really great movement in the piece but I still prefer the von Karajan 1963 cycle version for this symphony. However, it is marvelous to be able to experience Beethoven freshly again.


Well, the 1980s version is the best.


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## Lord Lance (Nov 4, 2013)

If anyone wants the RIAS Furtwangler set, a legal way to do so is to join the Toronto Symphony Orchestra's Beethoven on Demand. Register yourself for the service and then access Herr Furtwangler's RIAS Recording [AUDITE].

And the best part is that it is no way illegal.


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## papsrus (Oct 7, 2014)

Inspired by this thread, and having not explored Furtwangler at all, I shelled out a few nickels at amazon for Schubert No. 9 and Haydn No. 88 with Berlin last night.









:cheers:


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## Albert7 (Nov 16, 2014)

Lord Lance said:


> Well, the 1980s version is the best.


Why do you think that von Karajan's version in the 1980's is the best? A lot of people prefer the earlier 1963 and 1970's cycles instead?

Also I am glad that you are looking into Furtwangler's life a lot more... He was a complex figure and deserves the controversy... in many ways it parallels Schindler's List in a strange way.


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## Albert7 (Nov 16, 2014)

Any updates on your listening journey Bear?


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## SiegendesLicht (Mar 4, 2012)

I have been listening to nothing but Herr Furtwängler's interpretations for the last few days. Beethoven, Wagner, Schubert, Bruckner, Schumann, Mozart, Brahms - the entire pantheon of Teutonic gods. I did not get into him earlier because I thought the quality of old recordings would put me off, but now I find it does not bother me in the least. I forget about inferior quality after a few minutes. And the Beethoven and Bruckner pieces marked "Berliner Philarmoniker, 1944" give me goosebumps. They sound like.... courage and defiance. It took a lot of courage of him to stay in Berlin, especially as the bombs started falling.


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## Albert7 (Nov 16, 2014)

Bear has been doing well with his Furtwangler listening. Very productive indeed. I got to hear his Beethoven conducting and it was stellar. His own compositions not so much .


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

With a name like Furtwangler, he'd better be good!


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

SiegendesLicht said:


> I have just realized I do not own a single Furtwangler recording - a regrettable omission which I intend to correct soon.


I want the one with bombs going off in the background!


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## Albert7 (Nov 16, 2014)

millionrainbows said:


> I want the one with bombs going off in the background!


In that case, we would have to name it the 1912 Overture?


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## Lord Lance (Nov 4, 2013)

Albert7 said:


> Why do you think that von Karajan's version in the 1980's is the best? A lot of people prefer the earlier 1963 and 1970's cycles instead?
> 
> Also I am glad that you are looking into Furtwangler's life a lot more... He was a complex figure and deserves the controversy... in many ways it parallels Schindler's List in a strange way.


Well, I've not heard the 1960s cycle and a few symphonies from the '70s. And from what I can see the 1980s is my favorite. The playing is superb, the tempi grand, the articulation fantastic and the strings silky smooth.


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## Lord Lance (Nov 4, 2013)

Albert7 said:


> Bear has been doing well with his Furtwangler listening. Very productive indeed. I got to hear his Beethoven conducting and it was stellar. His own compositions not so much .


I enjoyed his Symphonic Concerto for Piano and Orchestra.


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## Lord Lance (Nov 4, 2013)

Albert7 said:


> Any updates on your listening journey Bear?


Yup. I've heard several Furtwangler records and none have so far disappointed me. It has done me a world of good to accustom myself with the mono sound. For, Walter week is coming!


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## Albert7 (Nov 16, 2014)

Lord Lance said:


> Yup. I've heard several Furtwangler records and none have so far disappointed me. It has done me a world of good to accustom myself with the mono sound. For, Walter week is coming!


Sure that it's Walter week only and not Walter month? That dude was perfectly prolific when it came to his recordings.


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## Lord Lance (Nov 4, 2013)

SiegendesLicht said:


> I have been listening to nothing but Herr Furtwängler's interpretations for the last few days. Beethoven, Wagner, Schubert, Bruckner, Schumann, Mozart, Brahms - the entire pantheon of Teutonic gods. I did not get into him earlier because I thought the quality of old recordings would put me off, but now I find it does not bother me in the least. I forget about inferior quality after a few minutes. And the Beethoven and Bruckner pieces marked "Berliner Philarmoniker, 1944" give me goosebumps. They sound like.... courage and defiance. It took a lot of courage of him to stay in Berlin, especially as the bombs started falling.


Indeed. But if anyone was brave and courageous, it was Herr Furtwangler!

If you want Furtwangler records in their best possible sound, read this list. 

And if you ever get serious: Go to Furtwangler societies online and purchase their remasterings of Herr Furtwangler's records. Those folks give it their 100% to see to it that his legacy is preserved.

For more Herr Furtwangler, this channel is also good.

Finally, a very fine performance of Eroica from 1944.


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## Lord Lance (Nov 4, 2013)

Albert7 said:


> Sure that it's Water week only and not Walter month? That dude was perfectly prolific when it came to his recordings.


Who's Water?

And I've already a few Walter records... I can't do a month because he did a lot of the central German repertoire which I've already explored with HF.


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## Albert7 (Nov 16, 2014)

Lord Lance said:


> Who's Water?
> 
> And I've already a few Walter records... I can't do a month because he did a lot of the central German repertoire which I've already explored with HF.


That works well... I will be on the lookout for some lovely reviews that you have been doing. Can you do us a weekly summary of what you have heard here so far?


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## Lord Lance (Nov 4, 2013)

Listened to today:

Symphony No. 5 - Ludwig van Beethoven from:










Symphony No. 2 and 3 - Johannes Brahms from:










1952 || 1954 for 2 || 3

Symphony No. 4 - Johannes Brahms from:


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