# Atonal jazz & classical possibilities?



## Nawdry (Dec 27, 2020)

Exploring possibilities of atonal composition in other music genres, I stumbled upon atonal jazz, which clearly has acquired some traction. Here are excerpts from information I've downloaded:

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Free Jazz

Is often atonal, with or without a tonal centre, and is NOT in any particular diatonic key (instead, you could say that it is 'chromatic')
This allows the soloist almost complete freedom in improvisation because you don't have to worry about chords or keys or modes anymore
The soloist can use any of the 12 note in any order - and all notes are created equal!
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https://www.thejazzpianosite.com/jazz-piano-lessons/modern-jazz-theory/free-jazz/
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The atonality of free jazz is often credited by historians and jazz performers to a return to non-tonal music of the nineteenth century, including field hollers, street cries, and jubilees (part of the "return to the roots" element of free jazz). This suggests that perhaps the movement away from tonality was not a conscious effort to devise a formal atonal system, but rather a reflection of the concepts surrounding free jazz. Jazz became "free" by removing dependence on chord progressions and instead using polytempic and polyrhythmic structures.
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_jazz

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Free Jazz and Atonality Explained





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Examples:

"Epic Escape" - Atonal Free Jazz & Fusion - Oliver Prehn & Erik Frandsen





ATONAL JAZZ GUITAR MÚSIC





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My own assessment is that atonal jazz seems to my ear somewhat more successful musically than much of classical atonal efforts. In any case, I'm led to wonder if this style of composition has some value as a technique in both tonal and atonal classical composition.


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## Prodromides (Mar 18, 2012)

Moonflowers, Baby!

https://www.scribd.com/document/477511600/Atonal-Jazz-pdf

Meyer Kupferman wrote atonal jazz and classical music for us since his 1964 'infinities' row.


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## tortkis (Jul 13, 2013)

Bernhard Lang was once a free jazz pianist. His Intermezzo Nr. 1 (2015) was "completely improvised on the piano," and Nr. 2 & 3 are computer-generated works using cellular automata algorithm applied to the first phrase of Nr. 1.

3 Intermezzi I: 



3 Intermezzi II: 



3 Intermezzi III: 




Some avant garde jazz musicians or free improvisers are approaching to contemporary classical, and sometimes I cannot tell if a piece of music is jazz or free improv or avant garde classical.

Tyshawn Sorey is described as "arresting a figure in contemporary classical and experimental new music as he is in jazz" (New York Times), and his works seems to integrate compositions and improvisations.

Feldmanesque For George Lewis played by Alarm Will Sound
https://alarmwillsound.bandcamp.com/album/for-george-lewis-autoschediasms

Pillars
https://firehouse12records.com/album/pillars


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## Simon Moon (Oct 10, 2013)

Nawdry said:


> *Exploring possibilities of atonal composition in other music genres,* I stumbled upon atonal jazz, which clearly has acquired some traction.





> *My own assessment is that atonal jazz seems to my ear somewhat more successful musically than much of classical atonal efforts.* In any case, I'm led to wonder if this style of composition has some value as a technique in both tonal and atonal classical composition.


Contemporary big band composer/arranger, Darcy James Argue, uses atonality and 12 tone rows in some of his music. But it is not free jazz.






Unless someone can correct me, I think the genre, besides jazz and classical, with the most atonality, is avant-prog. In fact, I would say, that there are more artists in this genre using atonality, than there are in jazz.

Bands like: Univers Zero, Art Zoyd, Thinking Plague, Aranis, and dozens more.











I will have to disagree with your statement in your last paragraph, since I listen almost exclusively to atonal classical music.

I listen to a lot of progressive forms of jazz, but free jazz is the one form I listen to the least. So, I am not listening to very much atonality in jazz.


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## Torkelburger (Jan 14, 2014)

Why do you think atonality is more successful in jazz than classical?

In contrast to the Argue posted above, which is straight-up classical-sounding, the atonality in big band settings (especially 12-tone music) had a very dated sound to it due to the fact it was used so much in the 1970s television and film scoring. Mainly police procedurals and thrillers. My generation especially (Gen X) grew up on this sound and it is still considered cliche.

That's not to say though, that this is bad music. Most of it is really good. Composers like Patrick Williams, Alan Silvestri, David Shire, and a ton of others did this kind of writing.

The masterpiece in this genre was David Shire's score for the magnificent film The Taking of Pelham One-Two-Three. He utilized the jazz big band and 12-tone writing throughout. Wonderful music. Many would argue it sounds dated, of course, but to my generation, it's great.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Torkelburger said:


> Why do you think atonality is more successful in jazz than classical?


The music is more interesting to hear because the players, improvising, are more engaged. So they don't sound like they're in the typical "classical music" mode of following a score slavishly and not really caring, not really listening and being responsive. Here, see what you think of these "atonal" pieces.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Nawdry said:


> My own assessment is that atonal jazz seems to my ear somewhat more successful musically than much of classical atonal efforts. In any case, I'm led to wonder if this style of composition has some value as a technique in both tonal and atonal classical composition.


There's a third way, a middle course between jazz and classical. It's where someone "writes" a composition in the usual "classical music composer" way, but it's incomplete, it's full of opportunities for the musicians to improvise. Richard Barrett is worth exploring.

It requires a major shift in the way people think of composition. The composer's job is not to create a work, but to create a structure which inspires the musicians to make fabulous music.


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## Torkelburger (Jan 14, 2014)

Mandryka said:


> The music is more interesting to hear because the players, improvising, are more engaged. So they don't sound like they're in the typical "classical music" mode of following a score slavishly and not really caring, not really listening and being responsive. Here, see what you think of these "atonal" pieces.


Ok I understand. I can respect that answer. I listened to a few minutes of each video and there is some really great sounds there. I would say it depends on the listener if one is more successful than the other. Some people do not like improvised music for several reasons:

1) they don't want any "bad" or "wrong" notes mixed in with the "right" ones, or IOW, they want the music's "best foot forward" at all times. However, that being said, I realize that usually musicians who mostly improvise play better when improvising than they do when playing rehearsed. OTOH, I've played with musicians who sounded better with rehearsed music, so it depends.

2) they want the music to sound either exactly like or similar to a recording, performance, or published medium that they are already familiar with, and deviating from that sounds too "foreign". And

3) improvising can lead to "elephantitis" (long-winded noodling) and is much harder to give a form to when you have to think on the fly and cannot guide the listener through the music with refined thinking.

But like I said, I understand what you are saying I just don't think it's is based on anything empirical to say atonal jazz is more "successful" than atonality in classical. I think it is subjective and depends on the listener.


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## DaveM (Jun 29, 2015)

Torkelburger said:


> 3) improvising can lead to "elephantitis" (long-winded noodling) and is much harder to give a form to when you have to think on the fly and cannot guide the listener through the music with refined thinking.


IMO, This has always been a problem with improvisational jazz. Improvisation has always had the downside that the performer forgets that even improvisation requires some element of form, direction and originality that attracts the listener otherwise the performer is just on a self-absorbed ego trip.


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## Chibi Ubu (11 mo ago)

I found this interesting. Thanks for sharing from this flower child.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Snansnsnsnznznsnsnsnsnsn


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## SONNET CLV (May 31, 2014)

My favorite atonal jazz album has for years been David Mack's _New Directions: Essays For Jazz Band_, released in 1965.















This is not atonal as in the "free jazz" sound. Rather, it's composed jazz utilizing the Schoenberg twelve-tone system. No random blowing here, but rather well designed, scored compositions that sound as if they came off the pen of Shoenberg, Webern, or Berg, but with a "jazz" inflection that is unmistakable. Well worth hearing.


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## Simon Moon (Oct 10, 2013)

Torkelburger said:


> Why do you think atonality is more successful in jazz than classical?





Mandryka said:


> The music is more interesting to hear because the players, improvising, are more engaged. So they don't sound like they're in the typical "classical music" mode of following a score slavishly and not really caring, not really listening and being responsive. Here, see what you think of these "atonal" pieces.


But couldn't your reason for finding atonal jazz more successful than atonal classical; "because the players, improvising, are more engaged. So they don't sound like they're in the typical "classical music" mode of following a score slavishly and not really caring, not really listening and being responsive", be said also for tonal and modal jazz, and tonal classical, also?

After all, the jazz musicians playing all that great post-bop modal jazz, fusion, etc, etc jazz, that is tonal, were also, by your statement, more engaged, and not slavishly following tonal scores, either.

Why is it different when the orchestra is playing Mozart, or playing Carter? Whether one is tonal, and the other atonal, does not mean the musicians in the orchestra are not slavishly following the score. And similarly, whether the jazz is tonal, or atonal, does not mean the players are more engaged.

I would make an uneducated guess, that when an orchestra is playing an atonal work, they are actually more engaged in what they are playing, since they play atonal works less often, and they tend to be more complex. It would seem to me, they would need to give more attention to the music, than what they normally play.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Simon Moon said:


> I would make an uneducated guess, that when an orchestra is playing an atonal work, they are actually more engaged in what they are playing, since they play atonal works less often, and they tend to be more complex. It would seem to me, they would need to give more attention to the music, than what they normally play.


I guess they are more attentive to following the score, staying on the rails, than they are to making music, making poetic music. The score is a hindrance.

I'm sure this goes without saying, but I'll say it anyway just in case. I'm not saying that it's a rule that improvisation is more poetic than composition. There are obviously inspired performances of compositions and uninspired improvisations. I am saying that it's one reason why atonal improvisation may sometimes, often possibly, be more stimulating to hear than performances of atonal compositions.


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## tortkis (Jul 13, 2013)

Butch Morris's Conduction (directed improvisation) using "symbolic notation" may be a potential way of unifying composition and improvisation. He is not acting as a composer in the traditional sense, but unlike collective free jazz sessions (which tend to become chaotic), the relationship resembles that of composer-performer, since the conductor instructs the musicians on the structure and direction of music, although each player has a certain degree of freedom.

Butch Morris demonstrates "conduction"





Skyscraper Mutiny


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Listening this morning to an extraordinary structure for improvisation on record, Stockhausen’s Spiral. Well worth seeking out the complete version with Michael Vetter. Some information about it here 

stockhausenspace.blogspot.com/2014/06/opus-27-spiral.html


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## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

Cecil Taylor is an obvious example of atonal jazz. I don't find it lasting interest in his music though. I listen to it once and would never really want to return to it.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Phil loves classical said:


> I don't find it lasting interest in his music though. I listen to it once and would never really want to return to it.


I just think it's astonishing that you can make this comment in the context of a discussion like this. I mean, I don't have a lasting interest in Handel's music, or Palestrina's or Scarlatti's or Vivaldi's or Rameau's. I never want to return to it. But this is to say nothing about their music, it's just a statement about me!


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## tortkis (Jul 13, 2013)

A free jazz label NoBusiness Records started a series of contemporary classical music (CC Series.) Here is their statement.

_"We believe that Free Improvisation and Contemporary Classical Music are just two dialects of the same language. That is why we start this series within the NoBusinessRecords Label: to create more synergy between these musical circles and to create opportunities for fans in both aesthetics to discover one another's treasures in music."_

http://nobusinessrecords.com/contemporary-classics-series.html


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

This is an inaccurate statement: "the typical "classical music" mode of following a score slavishly and not really caring, not really listening and being responsive." Playing from a score does not render the musicians "deaf" to the qualities which are the most important when making any kind of music, i.e. listening and responding to the musicians around you.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

SanAntone said:


> This is an inaccurate statement: "the typical "classical music" mode of following a score slavishly and not really caring, not really listening and being responsive." Playing from a score does not render the musicians "deaf" to the qualities which are the most important when making any kind of music, i.e. listening and responding to the musicians around you.


Have you heard Olaf from _Duos for Doris_? Quite something the rapport between Tilbury and Rowe, I don't know of much mainstream instrumental classical music in performance which comes close. Opera might - I once saw Vickers sing in Pagliacci and he was so angry sounding in the comedia del arte scene that I think the other singers were really frightened - they thought he was going to kill them for real, on stage in Covent Garden! That was pretty spontaneous sounding.

Anyway, do yourself a favour, download this

https://erstwhilerecords.bandcamp.com/album/duos-for-doris


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