# Sorry: This is the Voting Poll for the Recent Violettas: Gheorghiu and Dessay



## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Sorry, as you can see I am not Bonetan! Here is the voting poll for our Violettas. I could not edit it in to my previous post.









To start at the same place in Violetta's death scene, on the second video start around 11 minutes in. These were suggested by Nina Foresti. Enjoy this aria duel.

Edited by Art Rock to include the two links. I closed the other thread.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

...............................


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Not even close. Gheorghiu has it all. The last time I was so moved by Dumas's fallen woman she was the impossibly beautiful Greta Garbo dying in the arms of the impossibly handsome Robert Taylor to the souped-up strains of "Ah fors'e lui." Natalie Despina - I mean Dessay - is in the wrong movie, which appears to have been made on a budget. Where's Cecil B. DeMille when you need him?


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## JTS (Sep 26, 2021)

I’m always amused by these death scenes of actresses running around, etc. Anyone who has seen someone in the last stages of a severe illness knows they cannot move and can hardly speak, let alone sing. But this is opera. I love Dessay but thought her voice a little light for the part. She does convince on stage through her acting ability, as does indeed Gheorghiu. This is one of her great parts. But the running at the end is ludicrous.


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## MAS (Apr 15, 2015)

Two of the stupidest directorial ideas purporting to represent a woman dying of consumption. One must really suspend disbelief.

I don't like Dessay's voice for Violetta as much as Gheorghiu's: it's too light and raw at that point in her career.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

JTS said:


> I'm always amused by these death scenes of actresses running around, etc. Anyone who has seen someone in the last stages of a severe illness knows they cannot move and can hardly speak, let alone sing. But this is opera. I love Dessay but thought her voice a little light for the part. She does convince on stage through her acting ability, as does indeed Gheorghiu. This is one of her great parts. But the running at the end is ludicrous.


Violetta experiences a surge of life at the very end. Verdi handles it brilliantly, and the effect is anything but ludicrous. Yes, this is opera, and opera is art, where literal reality is transformed by the reality of feeling ("Art," said Picasso, "is the lie that makes us see the truth.") If opera's death scenes "always amuse" you, you're missing the point. One might think that after something like ten years and three or four identities on this forum you'd have come to an appreciation of that.

Or one might not.


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## JTS (Sep 26, 2021)

Woodduck said:


> Violetta experiences a surge of life at the very end. Verdi handles it brilliantly, and the effect is anything but ludicrous. Yes, this is opera, and opera is art, where literal reality is transformed by the reality of feeling ("Art," said Picasso, "is the lie that makes us see the truth.") If opera's death scenes "always amuse" you, you're missing the point. One might think that after something like ten years and three or four identities on this forum you'd have come to an appreciation of that.
> 
> Or one might not.


It's not Verdi as anyone who has been at the bedside might know there can be this 'life surge' before death. It's when a producer overdoes it and has her running around. That is just overdone.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Actually this ended up being closer than I expected. Vocally, Gheorghiu has it, but I'm guessing that the Dessay performance was riveting in the theatre. I don't really mind the modern setting, though Germont looks more like Alfredo's brother than his father. I prefer Dessay's death to Gheorghiu's, but I think both are too fussy. Callas would apparently just stand to greet what she thought was knew life, then simply drop into Alfredo's arms, her eyes still staring out sightlessly into the audience until the curtain fell.

The Ghorghiu was filmed during her debut run in the role, which I actually saw. I thought then that there were a few questionable directorial decisions (like having Violetta and Alfredo sing _Parigi, o cara_ from opposite sides of the stage), but Gheorghiu was incredibly impressive. She became an overnight sensation and a huge star thereafter.

Ultimately I'm voting for Gheorghiu, but I would have liked to see Dessay in a production of the opera on stage. I'm sure she would have been very moving.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Dessay was wonderful earlier in her career in the right material. I liked her stratospheric top early on.
Gheorghiu has been a revelation to me.Thanks Nina. She was a star!


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## JTS (Sep 26, 2021)

Among the people who thought Natalie Dessay should never sing Violetta was, for a time, Dessay herself. She was known as a high, piping Queen of the Night and Zerbinetta, someone whose prodigious gifts did not include the incisive thrust and weight that are expected for Verdi’s courtesan. But Dessay eventually sang the role in three different productions. The one from Aix, preserved on DVD, is the single opera performance I return to most often for sheer pleasure. Some people couldn’t accept her in the role, because she is such an idiosyncratic performer. Yet much of what she did at Aix brings us as close to Verdi as any soprano has managed. Dessay makes particularly expressive use of the many rests written by Verdi in often surprising places, showing us the breathless excitement of the overheated party girl in Act I, languishing sighs in “Ah, fors’è lui” and pitiful lack of will in Act II. Her retort to Alfredo’s “Un dì felice,” marked to be sung “lightly” and “brilliantly,” provides these things where other Violettas who can deliver a powerhouse “Amami, Alfredo” often sound like swooping birds of prey. But she can also use the figuration in “Sempre libera” to show the first signs of desperation. Dessay in fact provides the gamut of vocal colors that Verdi requires — unexpected resilience in “Non sapete che colpita,” true legato in “Dite alla giovine” (except, admirably, where Verdi doesn’t ask for it) and a seamless continuity, now on a devastating thread of tone, in a performance of “Addio del passato” that astutely expands on the change from minor to major mode. But the highlight is Dessay’s gambling scene, with her three arching phrases getting a rare outing just as Verdi wrote them — aside, but still in tempo, indicating her stunned reaction to her change in circumstances. She then delivers “Alfredo, Alfredo” with the debilitated voice that Verdi requests. It’s the sound of the carousel breaking down.

(William R Braun - Opera News)


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## JTS (Sep 26, 2021)

Seattleoperafan said:


> Dessay was wonderful earlier in her career in the right material. I'll never forget her trashing Sutherland only to loose her voice mid way into her career unlike Sutherland who was very popular into her 60's.
> Gheorghiu has been a revelation to me.Thanks Nina. She was a star!


She had a cyst and a polyp removed from her vocal chords which were causing problems. I don't remember her 'trashing Sutherland' unless it was to say that singers nearing 60 shouldn't be playing young maidens as it's not credible dramatically.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

JTS said:


> She had a cyst and a polyp removed from her vocal chords which were causing problems. I don't remember her 'trashing Sutherland' unless it was to say that singers nearing 60 shouldn't be playing young maidens as it's not credible dramatically.


I retracted what I said earlier. I heard an interview with Dessay today where the topic was on Sutherland who she admired a lot as a singer but who she said couldn't act. I think Sutherland became a very decent actress in the right roles.


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

I tend to want to blame the director mostly for the choice of performance from Dessay, although I suspect that Natalie herself possibly had some overly dramatic input as well. Still I found Dessay a marvelous Violetta but a part so tragically created that it actually became overdone. The staging in her production was not up to the more creative one in Gheorghiu's as well.
I think this production was possibly the finest thing Gheorghiu ever did and it would be hard to find a better combination of singing and acting all in one. I also though Lopardo had a excellent tenor voice and wonder whatever became of him. He deserved better.


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## MAS (Apr 15, 2015)

Seattleoperafan said:


> I I think Sutherland became a very decent actress in the right roles.


I think you're very forgiving! :lol:


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## JTS (Sep 26, 2021)

MAS said:


> I think you're very forgiving! :lol:


Sutherland knew she was no great shakes as an actress. When someone noted she was called 'la Stupenda' she said, "Do they mean my voice or my height?" There are a certain species of opera singer to whom acting is not the greatest gift but whose voice is so special they get away with it.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

MAS said:


> I think you're very forgiving! :lol:


I'll never convince you, friend, but videos of Sutherland's later Normas and Lucias show her acting quite respectfully. Callas she isn't, but in roles she identified with she did a lot more than just stand and sing. All I know are the videos and never saw her live. Her anger in the grand trio from Norma is very believable!



 You look at the 16 minute mark for a couple of minutes and try to tell me she wasn't into the role big time. One also must remember Callas' reaction to seeing Sutherland's Lucia in London with all the running about on the stage: Callas said... I couldn't do that!


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## MAS (Apr 15, 2015)

Seattleoperafan said:


> I'll never convince you, friend, but videos of Sutherland's later Normas and Lucias show her acting quite respectfully. Callas she isn't, but in roles she identified with she did a lot more than just stand and sing. All I know are the videos and never saw her live. Her anger in the grand trio from Norma is very believable!
> 
> 
> 
> You look at the 16 minute mark for a couple of minutes and try to tell me she wasn't into the role big time. One also must remember Callas' reaction to seeing Sutherland's Lucia in London with all the running about on the stage: Callas said... I couldn't do that!


Sutherland does seem more moved in those scenes than before and vocally she is letting herself go a bit wilder.

Zeffirelli had Sutherland running about the stage in his production of *Lucia di Lammermoor*because he disliked her "big ugly head" (I'm paraphrasing his words) and didn't want her standing still. It was a cruel comment, even if true. But most producers thereafter had her running around (even the Voice of Firestone and such other TV appearances).


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## Parsifal98 (Apr 29, 2020)

Woodduck said:


> Violetta experiences a surge of life at the very end. Verdi handles it brilliantly, and the effect is anything but ludicrous. Yes, this is opera, and opera is art, where literal reality is transformed by the reality of feeling ("Art," said Picasso, "is the lie that makes us see the truth.") If opera's death scenes "always amuse" you, you're missing the point. One might think that after something like ten years and three or four identities on this forum you'd have come to an appreciation of that.
> 
> Or one might not.


I remembered reading something similar written by our powdered-wig friend... Somethings never change!


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Parsifal98 said:


> I remembered reading something similar written by our powdered-wig friend... Somethings never change!


This cat may have nine lives.


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## Azol (Jan 25, 2015)

Gheorghiu's singing is about making the beautiful sound and sometimes it sounds overdone. Not here, she definitely has all the chops and handles the scene masterfully. If only we could have more intelligent singers like Angela these days!
As for Dessay, I can see Violetta but still hear Despinetta. Sorry about that


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## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

Sorry, I just can't appreciate Gheorghiu. She always looks/sounds "cheap" to me, like the girl from the other side of the tracks trying to look like the rich girls, but can't pull it off because she doesn't have the right makeup, doesn't know how to dress for her color palette/facial structure and doesn't have older rich girls giving her tips to up her game. 

I realize this is kind of a harsh thing to say, but if we're talking about how "convincing" someone is rather than just their singing capability (which I'm also not a fan of, but have less to say thereabouts), one's overall impression is important.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

BalalaikaBoy said:


> Sorry, I just can't appreciate Gheorghiu. She always looks/sounds "cheap" to me, like the girl from the other side of the tracks trying to look like the rich girls, but can't pull it off because she doesn't have the right makeup, doesn't know how to dress for her color palette/facial structure and doesn't have older rich girls giving her tips to up her game.
> 
> I realize this is kind of a harsh thing to say, but if we're talking about how "convincing" someone is rather than just their singing capability (which I'm also not a fan of, but have less to say thereabouts), one's overall impression is important.


How in the name of Boutros Boutros-Ghali (why not?) do you see any of that in this portrayal of the mortally ill lady of the camellias?

Might I suggest a new thread titled "Singers you're so prejudiced against that you can neither see nor hear what they're actually doing"?


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## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

Woodduck said:


> How in the name of *Boutros Boutros-Ghali* (why not?) do you see any of that in this portrayal of the mortally ill lady of the camellias?
> 
> Might I suggest a new thread titled "Singers you're so prejudiced against that you can neither see nor hear what they're actually doing"?


off topic: who is that? lmao


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Someone geezers remember: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boutros_Boutros-Ghali


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

It amazes me how cruel and mean spirited some people can be -- especially in these vulnerable times when a little kindness goes a long way.


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## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

nina foresti said:


> It amazes me how cruel and mean spirited some people can be -- especially in these vulnerable times when a little kindness goes a long way.


Perhaps it's unfair to single one person out. She's only an easy example of a much wider trend I can point to in the opera community at large (she isn't even the worst. Netrebko has here beat by a mile). Performers have always wanted accolades, but the sense of "please validate me" has grown more overt than it was before, say, the 1970s. At that time, the opera world had a more "take it or leave it" kind of feel to it.

Regardless, if you're looking for kindness, I'm not normally the person to go to, especially not when it comes to celebrities.


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## JTS (Sep 26, 2021)

BalalaikaBoy said:


> Sorry, I just can't appreciate Gheorghiu. She always looks/sounds "cheap" to me, like the girl from the other side of the tracks trying to look like the rich girls, but can't pull it off because she doesn't have the right makeup, doesn't know how to dress for her color palette/facial structure and doesn't have older rich girls giving her tips to up her game.
> 
> I realize this is kind of a harsh thing to say, but if we're talking about how "convincing" someone is rather than just their singing capability (which I'm also not a fan of, but have less to say thereabouts), one's overall impression is important.


As Dolly Parton says, 'It costs a lot to look this cheap!'

Don't forget Traviata is all about a prostitute


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Seattleoperafan said:


> I'll never convince you, friend, but videos of Sutherland's later Normas and Lucias show her acting quite respectfully. Callas she isn't, but in roles she identified with she did a lot more than just stand and sing. All I know are the videos and never saw her live. Her anger in the grand trio from Norma is very believable!
> 
> 
> 
> You look at the 16 minute mark for a couple of minutes and try to tell me she wasn't into the role big time. One also must remember Callas' reaction to seeing Sutherland's Lucia in London with all the running about on the stage: Callas said... I couldn't do that!


I'm not sure that's quite what Callas meant. She certainly could run around the stage, as can be seen in film of her singing Medea, in which she flits around the stage like a ballerina. Callas probably meant that it wouldn't be right for her conception of the role, and after all she did appear in Zeffirelli's production in Dallas. He actually stated that he thought Karajan's direction of the Mad Scene for his La Scala production was spot on. In his production Karajan had all the stage lights dimmed, leaving a follow spot on Callas, leaving her to move around the stage as she wished. According to Zeffirelli it was all you had to do with a Callas, just simply allow her to become a walking embodiment of the music.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Tsaraslondon said:


> I'm not sure that's quite what Callas meant. She certainly could run around the stage, as can be seen in film of her singing Medea, in which she flits around the stage like a ballerina. Callas probably meant that it wouldn't be right for her conception of the role, and after all she did appear in Zeffirelli's production in Dallas. He actually stated that he thought Karajan's direction of the Mad Scene for his La Scala production was spot on. In his production Karajan had all the stage lights dimmed, leaving a follow spot on Callas, leaving her to move around the stage as she wished. According to Zeffirelli it was all you had to do with a Callas, just simply allow her to become a walking embodiment of the music.


Sorry, I must be wrong then. To me it implied running all over the stage while doing serious coloratura singing. It is not such a minor skill. Personally I have never heard of another singer doing such physical activity while executing such vocal pyrotecnics and if so it must be exceptionally rare. I could be wrong on this. I know you don't follow Sutherland's career but quite a number of people were astonished that she could pull this feat off and I don't think any other soprano had done anything similar before. I am sure Callas could do absolutely everything better than Dame Joan in all aspects according to everyone on this forum.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Seattleoperafan said:


> Sorry, I must be wrong then. To me it implied running all over the stage while doing serious coloratura singing. It is not such a minor skill. Personally I have never heard of another singer doing such physical activity while executing such vocal pyrotecnics and if so it must be exceptionally rare. I could be wrong on this. I know you don't follow Sutherland's career but quite a number of people were astonished that she could pull this feat off and I don't think any other soprano had done anything similar before. I am sure Callas could do absolutely everything better than Dame Joan in all aspects according to everyone on this forum.


I'm sorry. I didn't mean to imply it wasn't quite a feat. In fact Zeffirelli said that Sutherland was quite phenomenal in that he could virtually ask her to do anything and she had no problem still singing the notes. I just meant that Callas might have said she couldn't do that, but nor would she have done. In fact she eschewed both a knife and blood on the nightgown when she sang the Mad Scene. She thought things should be implied rather than too explicit , particularly in Romantic opera.


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

Seattleoperafan said:


> I'll never convince you, friend, but videos of Sutherland's later Normas and Lucias show her acting quite respectfully. Callas she isn't, but in roles she identified with she did a lot more than just stand and sing. All I know are the videos and never saw her live. Her anger in the grand trio from Norma is very believable!
> 
> 
> 
> You look at the 16 minute mark for a couple of minutes and try to tell me she wasn't into the role big time. One also must remember Callas' reaction to seeing Sutherland's Lucia in London with all the running about on the stage: Callas said... I couldn't do that!


Having just completed _Sutherland and Bonynge: An Intimate Biography_ I must also concur with you that through rigorous acting training with her mentor Norman Ayrton she finally bloomed as this little gem from Andrew Porter will attest to in his article of "Lucia" at Covent Garden on February 26, 1959:

_The surprise of the evening was her new dramatic power. Since the war no one but Callas had received such ovations. New beauty shone in her face. Her gestures, bearing, were unfailingly expressive...there was meaning in everything she did. No soprano in our country has recorded the great scenes of Lucia with so rare and precious a combination of marvelously accomplished singing and dramatic interpretation. Tears and fire commingled in her tones._
(pg. 61)


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

nina foresti said:


> Having just completed _Sutherland and Bonynge: An Intimate Biography_ I must also concur with you that through rigorous acting training with her mentor Norman Ayrton she finally bloomed as this little gem from Andrew Porter will attest to in his article of "Lucia" at Covent Garden on February 26, 1959:
> 
> _The surprise of the evening was her new dramatic power. Since the war no one but Callas had received such ovations. New beauty shone in her face. Her gestures, bearing, were unfailingly expressive...there was meaning in everything she did. No soprano in our country has recorded the great scenes of Lucia with so rare and precious a combination of marvelously accomplished singing and dramatic interpretation. Tears and fire commingled in her tones._
> (pg. 61)


Can you feel my virtual hug!!!! Acting was not instinctive with Sutherland like it was with the great Callas, but Sutherland worked very hard and with good teachers she came a long long way from her basic natural abilities. Nilsson did the same thing late in her career. I think they both could have been proud of what they were able to do onstage.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Tsaraslondon said:


> I'm sorry. I didn't mean to imply it wasn't quite a feat. In fact Zeffirelli said that Sutherland was quite phenomenal in that he could virtually ask her to do anything and she had no problem still singing the notes. I just meant that Callas might have said she couldn't do that, but nor would she have done. In fact she eschewed both a knife and blood on the nightgown when she sang the Mad Scene. She thought things should be implied rather than too explicit , particularly in Romantic opera.


I can definitely see that. Thanks for clarifying. Have a wonderful weekend, friend. No, Callas didn't need blood LOL


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