# Stephen Sondheim (1930-2021)



## SanAntone

Stephen Sondheim (1930-2021) was a classically trained composer, studying first at Williams College with Robert Barrow then for two years in private study with Milton Babbitt. Lyric writing was almost an after thought but an endeavor to which Sondheim brought a work ethic and craft that is unsurpassed certainly in musical theater, but also in songwriting generally.

This is what he has said about his Williams experience :



> ... everybody hated him [Barrow] because he was very dry, and I thought he was wonderful because he was very dry. And Barrow made me realize that all my romantic views of art were nonsense. I had always thought an angel came down and sat on your shoulder and whispered in your ear 'dah-dah-dah-DUM.' It never occurred to me that art was something worked out. And suddenly it was skies opening up. As soon as you find out what a leading tone is, you think, Oh my God. What a diatonic scale is - Oh my God! The logic of it. And, of course, what that meant to me was: Well, I can do that. Because you just don't know. You think it's a talent, you think you're born with this thing. What I've found out and what I believed is that everybody is talented. It's just that some people get it developed and some don't. (Schiff, Stephen (2010). "Deconstructing Sondheim". The Sondheim Review. Sondheim Review, Inc. XVII.)


Sondheim has said that he is not a fan of opera, feeling that the wall-to-wall musical setting for the vocals is much easier to write than the conventional musical with scenes and songs. Songs, Sondheim believed, required a higher level of craft than the recitative/arioso style of opera.

Here are his major works:

Musicals (music & lyrics by Sondheim excepted where indicated)

1954	Saturday Night 
1957	West Side Story (lyrics) 
1959	Gypsy (lyrics) 
1962	A Funny Thing Happened on the Way to the Forum 
1964	Anyone Can Whistle 
1965	Do I Hear a Waltz? (lyrics) 
1966	Evening Primrose 
1970	Company 
1971	Follies 
1973	A Little Night Music 
1974	The Frogs	
1976	Pacific Overtures 
1979	Sweeney Todd 
1981	Merrily We Roll Along 
1984	Sunday in the Park with George 
1987	Into the Woods 
1990	Assassins 
1994	Passion 
2008	Road Show

Major revues and anthologies

_Side by Side by Sondheim_ (1976)
_Marry Me a Little_ (1980)
_Putting It Together_ (1993) 
_Sondheim on Sondheim_ (2010)

Please post your thoughts about Sondheim and his work here.


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## pianozach

I could have sworn that there was already a thread on Sondheim.


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## SanAntone

pianozach said:


> I could have sworn that there was already a thread on Sondheim.


Not in the Composer Guestbook sub-forum. I had asked the Mods to move the other one, but that request was refused (because of the sub-title), which is unfortunate since there were some good posts in it.

Anyway, I hope people will use this one going forward.


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## jegreenwood

I have posted on that other thread that I don't think of Sondheim as a classical composer, "merely" as a great composer. I live in NYC, the heart of Sondheim territory, and I have followed theater for over 60 years. Upon reflection last week, it occurred to me that Sondheim is to the NY world of musical theater (excluding opera) what the Beatles were to pop/rock music. Except Sondheim probably influenced musical theater even more than the Beatles influenced popular music. You can make a reasonable argument that Sondheim did for Broadway what Schoenberg did for classical music. Certainly, while he was successful, he never had a blockbuster like _Phantom_. But I would guess that the percentage of current musical theater songwriters who were inspired by him is extremely high.


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## SanAntone

*A COMPLETE ROUNDUP OF EVERY SONDHEIM MUSICAL* (JULY 7, 2020)

*The Stephen Sondheim Society*

*Stephen Sondheim, The Art of the Musical* (Interview with James Lipton transcribed)

*Stephen Sondheim* (Wikipedia)


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## SanAntone

jegreenwood said:


> I have posted on that other thread that I don't think of Sondheim as a classical composer, "merely" as a great composer. I live in NYC, the heart of Sondheim territory, and I have followed theater for over 60 years. Upon reflection last week, it occurred to me that Sondheim is to the NY world of musical theater (excluding opera) what the Beatles were to pop/rock music. Except Sondheim probably influenced musical theater even more than the Beatles influenced popular music. You can make a reasonable argument that Sondheim did for Broadway what Schoenberg did for classical music. Certainly, while he was successful, he never had a blockbuster like _Phantom_. But I would guess that the percentage of current musical theater songwriters who were inspired by him is extremely high.


First, thanks for reposting your remark - I basically agree, with this caveat:

I don't know what a contemporary Classical composer is. If it is a composer who has been trained in the Classical tradition, then Sondheim checks that box. If it is a composer who along with his Classical training, brings a seriousness of intention about the work, and invests it with high standard of craft and artistic purpose, then Sondheim checks that box.

Is it a question of style? Then I don't think you can make a convincing argument about there being a contemporary Classical style when C20/21 Classical composers have incorporated a multi-genre approach when writing their works.

IMO the American musical theater (as opposed to musical comedy) became a serious form in the last half of the 20th century. Granted there are absolute commercial ventures found there as well, but there are also pure works of art like Sweeney Todd and Passion.

I don't care (nor do I think he cared) if Stephen Sondheim is considered a Classical composer. The work speaks for itself.


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## jegreenwood

And although this is a music forum (where on occasion a funny thing happens), if you read his collected lyrics and self-assessment, he is (IMHO and in the opinion of so many) the greatest lyricist Broadway has ever had. Here's the assessment of The NY Times principal critic:

"Though he rejected the idea that lyrics were poetry, his lyrics nevertheless had both a greater density of meaning and a lighter footprint on their music than anyone else’s. Though he was at first dismissed as a minor, “unhummable” melodist, over the course of his 15 scores for the stage (and several in other mediums) he gradually retuned the ear of theatergoers until they were able to recognize the beauty in his harsh complexities. And though he graciously bowed to his book writers, it was he who elevated their plot points into drama by shaping them first into individual jewels of songs and then stringing them into chains."

Cole Porter and Larry Hart, among others, could be very clever. They could also write beautiful ballads, but they were generic. Sondheim wrote songs for characters. And inevitably other singers would find those characters inside themselves.


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## SanAntone

jegreenwood said:


> And although this is a music forum (where on occasion a funny thing happens), if you read his collected lyrics and self-assessment, he is (IMHO and in the opinion of so many) the greatest lyricist Broadway has ever had. Here's the assessment of The NY Times principal critic:
> 
> "Though he rejected the idea that lyrics were poetry, his lyrics nevertheless had both a greater density of meaning and a lighter footprint on their music than anyone else's. Though he was at first dismissed as a minor, "unhummable" melodist, over the course of his 15 scores for the stage (and several in other mediums) he gradually retuned the ear of theatergoers until they were able to recognize the beauty in his harsh complexities. And though he graciously bowed to his book writers, it was he who elevated their plot points into drama by shaping them first into individual jewels of songs and then stringing them into chains."
> 
> Cole Porter and Larry Hart, among others, could be very clever. They could also write beautiful ballads, but they were generic. Sondheim wrote songs for characters. And inevitably other singers would find those characters inside themselves.


Yes. He has talked about how writing music is easy and fun compared to writing lyrics which is hard work. He has complained about how in English the most important "song words", love and life, are the hardest to rhyme. He's also credited Oscar Hammerstein II with the idea that a song, a theater song, is like a play with each verse an act. At the end of the song the character needs to have undergone some change, realization, or epiphany.


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## John Zito

jegreenwood said:


> You can make a reasonable argument that Sondheim did for Broadway what Schoenberg did for classical music.


Funny you mention it. Apparently Frederic Rzewski (another Babbitt student) considered Sondheim "the Schoenberg of the musical theater."



SanAntone said:


> I don't care (nor do I think he cared) if Stephen Sondheim is considered a Classical composer. The work speaks for itself.


Completely agreed. And in the other thread I made a point not to really ask that question. My curiosity basically boiled down to two things. First a positive question: do you predict that Sondheim's works will continue to be taken up by "serious" performing arts organizations, or has that just been a gimmick that will fade now that he's gone? Then a normative question: _should_ they be taken up by orchestras, opera companies, etc.

There are at least two angles on the second question. One is to consider whether or not opera singers and classical musicians make the best case for the music. I'm not so sure about this, although in the opera house or concert hall you at least have the benefit of hearing the score played by a full orchestra. The second angle is to argue the merits of whether or not Sondheim's best work stands comparison with stuff like _Porgy and Bess_, _Peter Grimes_, _Dialogues of the Carmelites_, etc. I honestly think it does.


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## jegreenwood

On the other hand the director Richard Lester (_A Hard Day's Night, Help_) must have felt Sondheim's music needed a bit of punching up. So he brought in a ghost writer (at about the 3:55 mark).


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## SanAntone

John Zito said:


> Completely agreed. And in the other thread I made a point not to really ask that question. My curiosity basically boiled down to two things. First a positive question: do you predict that Sondheim's works will continue to be taken up by "serious" performing arts organizations, or has that just been a gimmick that will fade now that he's gone? Then a normative question: _should_ they be taken up by orchestras, opera companies, etc.


Not sure what qualifies as a "serious" performing arts organization" but here's a list of just the Off-Broadway productions of his shows in the last ten years:

11/14/2021	Assassins	East 13th Street/CSC Theatre 
02/19/2019	Merrily We Roll Along	Laura Pels Theatre (Current) 
05/04/2017 Pacific Overtures	East 13th Street/CSC Theatre 
03/01/2017 Sweeney Todd, The Demon Barber of Fleet Street	Barrow Street Theatre 
01/22/2015 Into the Woods	Laura Pels Theatre (Current)	
02/28/2013	Passion	East 13th Street/CSC Theatre	
08/09/2012 Into the Woods	Delacorte Theater

Here is a complete list of his touring shows.



> There are at least two angles on the second question. One is to consider whether or not opera singers and classical musicians make the best case for the music. I'm not so sure about this, although in the opera house or concert hall you at least have the benefit of hearing the score played by a full orchestra. The second angle is to argue the merits of whether or not Sondheim's best work stands comparison with stuff like _Porgy and Bess_, _Peter Grimes_, _Dialogues of the Carmelites_, etc. I honestly think it does.


I think they do stand up, and of those operas I have recently watched productions at The Met of _Porgy and Bess_ and _Dialogues of the Carmelites_, and Sondheim's shows hold their own.

One of his shows which I think is underrated is _Passion_. This show he comes closest to an operatic treatment, written in an almost complete arioso style, not much spoken dialog, and arias.

His shows are produced somewhere in the world every year.


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## John Zito

SanAntone said:


> Not sure what qualifies as a "serious" performing arts organization"


You're right, I'm not being clear. I mean orchestras and opera companies. Folks that specialize in western "art music," Bach to Stravinsky more or less. I don't mean theater companies, which are plenty serious, but for whom Sondheim is meat and potatoes. They obviously will and should perform him. Not much of a question there.



SanAntone said:


> One of his shows which I think is underrated is _Passion_. This show he comes closest to an operatic treatment, written in an almost complete arioso style, not much spoken dialog, and arias.


It's the one I took the longest to come around to. Something clicked when I heard Sondheim sing "I Wish I Could Forget You" on NPR's _Piano Jazz_. Then this year I've been binging this:


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## jegreenwood

SanAntone said:


> Not sure what qualifies as a "serious" performing arts organization" but here's a list of just the Off-Broadway productions of his shows in the last ten years:
> 
> 11/14/2021	Assassins	East 13th Street/CSC Theatre
> 02/19/2019	Merrily We Roll Along	Laura Pels Theatre (Current)
> 05/04/2017 Pacific Overtures	East 13th Street/CSC Theatre
> 03/01/2017 Sweeney Todd, The Demon Barber of Fleet Street	Barrow Street Theatre
> 01/22/2015 Into the Woods	Laura Pels Theatre (Current)
> 02/28/2013	Passion	East 13th Street/CSC Theatre
> 08/09/2012 Into the Woods	Delacorte Theater
> 
> Here is a complete list of his touring shows.
> 
> I think they do stand up, and of those operas I have recently watched productions at The Met of _Porgy and Bess_ and _Dialogues of the Carmelites_, and Sondheim's shows hold their own.
> 
> One of his shows which I think is underrated is _Passion_. This show he comes closest to an operatic treatment, written in an almost complete arioso style, not much spoken dialog, and arias.
> 
> His shows are produced somewhere in the world every year.


I need to see _Passion_ again. I've only seen it once, and that was at the end of a very long day, which started with minor surgery.

One of several reasons that Sondheim will continue to be produced is that he allowed an enormous amount of experimentation with his work. There was the _Sweeney Todd_, (and the _Company_) where actors also served as the orchestra. Here's Patti LuPone on the tuba:






In the current production of _Company_ Bobby (now Bobbi I think) is a woman.

By the way, Sondheim's most legendary flop, _Merrily We Roll Along_ is scheduled to return to Broadway in the next year or so. I saw the original and this incoming production, which originated a number of years ago in London - and you know what - the incoming production works!

Edit - I forgot about Richard Linklater's upcoming film of _Merrily_. Upcoming in 20 years that is, as he is using the same technique he used in _Boyhood_ - only backwards.


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## John Zito

jegreenwood said:


> By the way, Sondheim's most legendary flop, _Merrily We Roll Along_ is scheduled to return to Broadway in the next year or so. I saw the original and this incoming production, which originated a number of years ago in London - and you know what - the incoming production works!


Is this the production that Maria Friedman directed?


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## SanAntone

John Zito said:


> You're right, I'm not being clear. I mean orchestras and opera companies. Folks that specialize in western "art music," Bach to Stravinsky more or less. I don't mean theater companies, which are plenty serious, but for whom Sondheim is meat and potatoes. They obviously will and should perform him. Not much of a question there.


I saw _Sweeney Todd_ at the NY City Opera in the '80s when I was living in NYC, and believe that other opera companies have done it. One of the benefits of living in NYC was TKTS and being able to afford the shows, which probably has changed since then.



> It's the one I took the longest to come around to. Something clicked when I heard Sondheim sing "I Wish I Could Forget You" on NPR's _Piano Jazz_. Then this year I've been binging this:


I wasn't aware of that 2013 production; found it on Spotify. It is one among his shows that I especially enjoy.


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## SanAntone

jegreenwood said:


> By the way, Sondheim's most legendary flop, _Merrily We Roll Along_ is scheduled to return to Broadway in the next year or so.


More of a flop than _Anyone Can Whistle_? But I like _Merrily_, with the reverse-chrono form, I was always intrigued with that idea.


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## jegreenwood

John Zito said:


> You're right, I'm not being clear. I mean orchestras and opera companies. Folks that specialize in western "art music," Bach to Stravinsky more or less. I don't mean theater companies, which are plenty serious, but for whom Sondheim is meat and potatoes. They obviously will and should perform him. Not much of a question there.
> 
> It's the one I took the longest to come around to. Something clicked when I heard Sondheim sing "I Wish I Could Forget You" on NPR's _Piano Jazz_. Then this year I've been binging this:


Orchestras I doubt. Seems to me that when the NY Phil plays Sondheim, it's for some special event. Maybe Pops Orchestras. And probably something to celebrate his centenary. I can see _Sweeney Todd_ and maybe others having a life on the opera stage.


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## jegreenwood

Yes. [And a bunch of unnecessary words.]


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## SanAntone

Re Sweeney and operatic productions:



> The first opera company to mount Sweeney Todd was the Houston Grand Opera in a production directed by Hal Prince, which ran from June 14, 1984 through June 24, 1984 for a total of 10 performances. Conducted by John DeMain, the production used scenic designs by Eugene Lee, costume designs by Franne Lee, and lighting designs by Ken Billington. The cast included Timothy Nolen in the title role, Joyce Castle as Mrs. Lovett, Cris Groenendaal as Anthony, Lee Merrill as Johanna, Will Roy as Judge Turpin, and Barry Busse as The Beadle.[58]
> 
> In 1984 the show was presented by the New York City Opera. Hal Prince recreated the staging using the simplified set of the 2nd national tour. It was well received and most performances sold out. It was brought back for limited runs in 1986 and 2004. Notably the 2004 production starred Mark Delavan and Elaine Paige.[59] The show was also performed by Opera North in 1998 in the UK starring Steven Page and Beverley Klein, directed by David McVicar and conducted by James Holmes.
> 
> In the early 2000s, Sweeney Todd gained acceptance with opera companies throughout the United States, Canada, Japan, Germany, Israel, Spain, the Netherlands, the United Kingdom and Australia. Bryn Terfel, the popular Welsh bass-baritone, performed the title role at Lyric Opera of Chicago in 2002, with Judith Christian, David Cangelosi, Timothy Nolen, Bonaventura Bottone, Celena Shaffer and Nathan Gunn. It was performed at the Royal Opera House in London as part of the Royal Opera season (December 2003 - January 2004) starring Sir Thomas Allen as Todd, Felicity Palmer as Mrs. Lovett and a supporting cast that included Rosalind Plowright, Robert Tear and Jonathan Veira as Judge Turpin. The Finnish National Opera performed Sweeney Todd in 1997-98. The Israeli National Opera has performed Sweeney Todd twice. The Icelandic Opera performed Sweeney Todd in the fall of 2004, the first time in Iceland. On September 12, 2015, Sweeney Todd opened at the San Francisco Opera with Brian Mulligan as Todd, Stephanie Blythe as Mrs. Lovett, Matthew Grills as Tobias, Heidi Stober as Johanna, Elliot Madore as Anthony and Elizabeth Futral as the Beggar Woman/Lucy. (Wikipedia)


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## SanAntone

jegreenwood said:


> Yes. [And a bunch of unnecessary words.]


ACW closed after a run of 12 previews and 9 performances; MWRA closed after a run of 16 performances and 52 previews.

Based on number of performances ACW was the bigger flop.


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## Guest

jegreenwood said:


> And although this is a music forum (where on occasion a funny thing happens), if you read his collected lyrics and self-assessment, he is (IMHO and in the opinion of so many) the greatest lyricist Broadway has ever had. Here's the assessment of The NY Times principal critic:
> 
> "Though he rejected the idea that lyrics were poetry, his lyrics nevertheless had both a greater density of meaning and a lighter footprint on their music than anyone else's. Though he was at first dismissed as a minor, "unhummable" melodist, over the course of his 15 scores for the stage (and several in other mediums) he gradually retuned the ear of theatergoers until they were able to recognize the beauty in his harsh complexities. And though he graciously bowed to his book writers, it was he who elevated their plot points into drama by shaping them first into individual jewels of songs and then stringing them into chains."
> 
> Cole Porter and Larry Hart, among others, could be very clever. They could also write beautiful ballads, but they were generic. Sondheim wrote songs for characters. And inevitably other singers would find those characters inside themselves.


Really interesting comments. But I disagree that Cole Porter wrote generic lyrics. He also wrong songs for characters; ergo, "Kiss Me Kate" just as an example. And "Silk Stockings". They were different to the musicals of Sondheim which were more like operetta to me in the sense you describe character-based lyrics. And they adopted a 'singspiel' formula which I don't so much like. And, of course, Sondheim was also looking back over his shoulder towards Gilbert & Sullivan with his syllabic lyric formulations. As did the Gershwin brothers, too, of course. "West Side Story" was character-based in the same way that "Showboat" was, except for the comic schtick ("Officer Krupke" etc. - interesting isn't it; a Polish police officer in that musical yet it's the Puerto Ricans who feel the discrimination!!).

Sondheim was the embodiment of the lyricist which was Larry Hart, yet the latter was a Columbia University luminary and raconteur and Sondheim was a non-intellectual creature exclusively of the Broadway theatre. The sophistication of Hart is not to be found in Sondheim, except in a couple of his famous songs. And he eschewed the 'purple prose' he wrote for WSS, even being embarrassed about them - though Shakespeare himself wrote this for his teenaged "Romeo & Juliet":

When he shall die,
Take him and cut him out in little stars,
And he will make the face of heaven so fine
That all the world will be in love with night
And pay no worship to the garish sun."


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## SanAntone

Christabel said:


> Sondheim was the embodiment of the lyricist which was Larry Hart, yet the latter was a Columbia University luminary and raconteur and Sondheim was a non-intellectual creature exclusively of the Broadway theatre.


Not exactly.

Sondheim graduated from Williams College, much smaller but academically comparable to Columbia, with a degree in music composition, minor in English. He then studied with Milton Babbitt for two years.

Prior to that he spent approximately five years in an "apprentice" program with Oscar Hammerstein II, in which he was tasked with writing four musicals according to Hammerstein's program: 1) based on a successful play; 2) based on a flawed play; 3) based on a novel or short story; 4) based on his original book.

Hammerstein was himself a very astute lyricist and playwright and imbued Sondheim with a respect for craft and precision.

Sondheim's knowledge of songs/lyrics, the history of musical theater, and show writing, was encyclopedic. To label him a "non-intellectual" is simply incorrect.


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## Guest

SanAntone said:


> Not exactly.
> 
> Sondheim graduated from Williams College, much smaller but academically comparable to Columbia, with a degree in music composition, minor in English. He then studied with Milton Babbitt for two years.
> 
> Prior to that he spent approximately five years in an "apprentice" program with Oscar Hammerstein II, in which he was tasked with writing four musicals according to Hammerstein's program: 1) based on a successful play; 2) based on a flawed play; 3) based on a novel or short story; 4) based on his original book.
> 
> Hammerstein was himself a very astute lyricist and playwright and imbued Sondheim with a respect for craft and precision.
> 
> Sondheim's knowledge of songs/lyrics, the history of musical theater, and show writing, was encyclopedic. To label him a "non-intellectual" is simply incorrect.


Yes, I know all about Hammerstein's relationship with Sondheim. The former was a great man and a superb role model. And by "intellectuality" I didn't mean he wasn't university educated; there's a different dimension to being 'intellectual' per se. Cerebral, learned, worldly, experienced; primarily concerned with issues of the mind. Abstract and self-reflexive.

What I mean about intellectuality is that this is present in Hart's aesthetic in a way that it isn't in Sondheim, for me. Same for Cole Porter; the 'summa' of urbanity and intellectual heft. His lyrics read like an international travelogue and who's who. And he understood people.

My reference to Gilbert & Sullivan with the Gershwins and also Sondheim is to be heard here: I hasten to add, another dimension better than those Englishmen!!






I very much appreciate these discussions, BTW, as I have nobody in my life in the least interested in this vitally important subject!


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## SanAntone

Christabel said:


> Yes, I know all about Hammerstein's relationship with Sondheim. The former was a great man and a superb role model. And by "intellectuality" I didn't mean he wasn't university educated; there's a different dimension to being 'intellectual' per se. Cerebral, learned, worldly, experienced; primarily concerned with issues of the mind. Abstract and self-reflexive.
> 
> What I mean about intellectuality is that this is present in Hart's aesthetic in a way that it isn't in Sondheim, for me. Same for Cole Porter; the 'summa' of urbanity and intellectual heft. His lyrics read like an international travelogue and who's who. And he understood people.
> 
> My reference to Gilbert & Sullivan with the Gershwins and also Sondheim is to be heard here: I hasten to add, another dimension better than those Englishmen!!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I very much appreciate these discussions, BTW, as I have nobody in my life in the least interested in this vitally important subject!


I think you are comparing two different generations of theater writers, i.e. Hart and Porter were writing for shows prior to the Rodger/Hammerstein integrated show (which Sondheim inherited), and the songs were stand alone set pieces.

Sondheim was writing for characters in a situation. Larry Hart seemed to write the same kind of song no matter who was singing it, whereas Sondheim was very careful to put only those words in the mouths of his actors which were appropriate for the character they were playing.

I find Sondheim's songs more sophisticated than either Hart or Porter, whose lyrics seem writerly, false for how people express themselves, and one dimensional regarding what they are saying.


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## jegreenwood

SanAntone said:


> More of a flop than _Anyone Can Whistle_? But I like _Merrily_, with the reverse-chrono form, I was always intrigued with that idea.


More of a legendary flop, I would say. _Anyone Can Whistle_ did have a shorter run, but Sondheim wasn't so highly regarded at the time.

IMO the big mistake in the original production of _Merrily_ belonged to Prince - casting kids (including his daughter IIRC) in the roles. With terrible costumes.


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## jegreenwood

Christabel said:


> Yes, I know all about Hammerstein's relationship with Sondheim. The former was a great man and a superb role model. And by "intellectuality" I didn't mean he wasn't university educated; there's a different dimension to being 'intellectual' per se. Cerebral, learned, worldly, experienced; primarily concerned with issues of the mind. Abstract and self-reflexive.
> 
> What I mean about intellectuality is that this is present in Hart's aesthetic in a way that it isn't in Sondheim, for me. Same for Cole Porter; the 'summa' of urbanity and intellectual heft. His lyrics read like an international travelogue and who's who. And he understood people.
> 
> My reference to Gilbert & Sullivan with the Gershwins and also Sondheim is to be heard here: I hasten to add, another dimension better than those Englishmen!!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I very much appreciate these discussions, BTW, as I have nobody in my life in the least interested in this vitally important subject!


Of course Sondheim described Hart as, "the laziest of the pre-eminent lyricists," coasting on "glibness and attitude." _Finishing the Hat_ ("FTH") page 153. If anything, his opinion of W.S. Gilbert is worse. FTH page 324. He criticizes Ira Gershwin's "insatiable need to rhyme." FTH page 176. He has mostly praise for Porter, about whom he writes, "Technically in both music and lyrics, no one is better than Porter and few are his equals. FTH page 212.

A book worth reading, as well as its sequel, _Look, I Made a Hat_.


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## Guest

jegreenwood said:


> Of course Sondheim described Hart as, "the laziest of the pre-eminent lyricists," coasting on "glibness and attitude." _Finishing the Hat_ ("FTH") page 153. If anything, his opinion of W.S. Gilbert is worse. FTH page 324. He criticizes Ira Gershwin's "insatiable need to rhyme." FTH page 176. He has mostly praise for Porter, about whom he writes, "Technically in both music and lyrics, no one is better than Porter and few are his equals. FTH page 212.
> 
> A book worth reading, as well as its sequel, _Look, I Made a Hat_.


As we all know Lorenz "Larry" Hart was a deeply troubled alcoholic and, yes, he drove his partner mad!! Rodgers writes at length about this in his autobiography, "Musical Stages". Nevertheless, I think what I said stands because he was witty, intellectually resourceful, worldly and cultured. Sondheim might have thought him 'glib' but I doubt the average music-lover would reach that conclusion:






Rodgers was the perfect composer for Hart and, boy, didn't he change aesthetically when he joined up with Oscar Hammerstein!! He reverted to operetta!! The music was ravishing, but it was not as varied and complex as it often had been with Hart: for example, the use of the segue. But R&H could be cheesy, ergo "Mountain Greenery".

I love this:






People have said Ira was the ideal lyricist for George Gershwin, but I think his rhyming was derived in the most ingenious way; a little like Shakespeare in the sonnets Ira, Hart and Cole Porter were known to turn a line inside out for the purpose of finding the rhyme. This is an extraordinary skill; it's much easier to set prose to music than it is to torture a line to find a rhyme!! (LOL) And, of course, Cole emulated Shakespeare here!! The scansion must match the music, most of it already composed. So that kind of a lyricist is always thinking in smaller units of music, it seems to me.






This is genius!






And more strained rhyming:

Summer journeys to Niagara
And to other places aggravate all our cares
We'll save our fares
I've a cozy little flat in
What is known as old Manhattan
We'll settle down
Right here in town
We'll have Manhattan
The Bronx and Staten Island too
It's lovely going through the zoo
It's very fancy on old Delancey Street, you know
The Subway charms us so
When barmy breezes blow to-and-fro
And tell me what street
Compares with Mott Street in July?
Sweet pushcarts gently gliding by
The great big city's a wonderous toy
Just made for a girl and boy
We'll turn Manhatten into an isle of joy
We'll go to Yonkers
Where true love conquers in the whiles
And starve together dear in Chiles
We'll go to Coney and eat baloney on a roll
In Central Park we'll stroll
Where our first kiss we stole
Soul to soul
And 'My Fair Lady' is a terrific show, they say
We both may see it close some day
The city's glamour can never spoil
The dreams of a boy and girl
We'll turn Manhattan into an isle of joy


----------



## SanAntone

jegreenwood said:


> _Finishing the Hat_ A book worth reading, as well as its sequel, _Look, I Made a Hat_.


Yep. I dip into them from time to time. Also good is Oscar Hammerstein's _Lyrics_ (the long introduction "Notes on Lyrics" is a master class on writing lyrics) and Ira Gershwin's _Lyrics on Several Occasions_. All these songwriters were at the top of the game, and it is silly to quibble over who was better, etc., since they all excelled in their own style and time.

One name we haven't mentioned is *Irving Berlin* who arguably the greatest of them all.

Harold Arlen
Jerome Kern
Frank Loesser
Cy Coleman 
Jimmy Van Heusen
Arthur Schwatrz
Vincent Youmans
Alan Jay Lermer
Jimmy McHugh
Otto Harbach
Johnny Burke
Howard Dietz
Buddy DeSilva
Andy Razaf
Fats Waller
Duke Ellington

And more I can't think of .... these guys with their co-writers wrote the best songs mid-century America produced.


----------



## Guest

SanAntone said:


> Yep. I dip into them from time to time. Also good is Oscar Hammerstein's _Lyrics_ (the long introduction "Notes on Lyrics" is a master class on writing lyrics) and Ira Gershwin's _Lyrics on Several Occasions_. All these songwriters were at the top of the game, and it is silly to quibble over who was better, etc., since they all excelled in their own style and time.
> 
> One name we haven't mentioned is *Irving Berlin* who arguably the greatest of them all.
> 
> Harold Arlen
> Jerome Kern
> Frank Loesser
> Cy Coleman
> Jimmy Van Heusen
> Arthur Schwatrz
> Vincent Youmans
> Alan Jay Lermer
> Jimmy McHugh
> Otto Harbach
> Johnny Burke
> Howard Dietz
> Buddy DeSilva
> Andy Razaf
> Fats Waller
> Duke Ellington
> 
> And more I can't think of .... these guys with their co-writers wrote the best songs mid-century America produced.


And what does *the majority* of these wonderful people have in common? That's right, they were Jewish!!


----------



## Guest

SanAntone said:


> I think you are comparing two different generations of theater writers, i.e. Hart and Porter were writing for shows prior to the Rodger/Hammerstein integrated show (which Sondheim inherited), and the songs were stand alone set pieces.
> 
> Sondheim was writing for characters in a situation. Larry Hart seemed to write the same kind of song no matter who was singing it, whereas Sondheim was very careful to put only those words in the mouths of his actors which were appropriate for the character they were playing.
> 
> I find Sondheim's songs more sophisticated than either Hart or Porter, whose lyrics seem writerly, false for how people express themselves, and one dimensional regarding what they are saying.


"Writerly, false for how people express themselves". This is what art is about. Ergo, Shakespeare. Who ever spoke like his writing? That's the art of genius, IMO; to lift the artistic experience beyond the quotidian. I take your point about Sondheim providing character-inspired lyrics, but it depends on your personal preference I guess. Bernstein and Sondheim wrong 'songs' for "West Side Story" and these were indeed character-based lyrics. These two things aren't mutually exclusive. I regard Porter, Hart, Gershwin as *anything BUT* one-dimensional. What about this for REAL DIMENSION: this perfectly matches the character of Dexter and his insouciance.






I find Sondheim's music bland in comparison to all those composers too. Fabulous enharmonic modulations in Kern, just to name one. And the melody lines were often unpredictable and often un-singable. 'Controversy/Serse/Mercy'.... I just loved Porter's sophisticated sensibility and here in "High Society" he's writing about his own people!!

Forgive my grammatical error in the previous post!! (What DO the majority... have in common?)


----------



## SanAntone

Christabel said:


> "Writerly, false for how people express themselves". This is what art is about. Ergo, Shakespeare. Who ever spoke like his writing? That's the art of genius, IMO; to lift the artistic experience beyond the quotidian. I take your point about Sondheim providing character-inspired lyrics, but it depends on your personal preference I guess. Bernstein and Sondheim wrong 'songs' for "West Side Story" and these were indeed character-based lyrics. These two things aren't mutually exclusive. I regard Porter, Hart, Gershwin as *anything BUT* one-dimensional. What about this for REAL DIMENSION: this perfectly matches the character of Dexter and his insouciance.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I find Sondheim's music bland in comparison to all those composers too. Fabulous enharmonic modulations in Kern, just to name one. And the melody lines were often unpredictable and often un-singable. 'Controversy/Serse/Mercy'....
> 
> I just loved Porter's sophisticated sensibility and here in "High Society" he's writing about his own people!!
> 
> Forgive my grammatical error in the previous post!! (What DO the majority... have in common?)


By "one dimensional" I mean that the song expresses one emotion, one idea, one situation. Theater songs written in the wake of Rodgers and Hammerstein's Oklahoma, and Carousel, are, in Hammerstein's words, "little plays," with each verse an "act," and the singer/character goes on a journey and comes out changed in some manner or having had an epiphany.

This is what I meant when I said you were comparing songwriters from different periods. Rodgers and Hammerstein re-made the musical into a plot driven music drama with the songs emanating from the narrative and the characters. Sondheim further honed this style show and developed it further.

What I get from your posts is that you enjoy the songs as songs. The things you complain about Sondheim's songs are precisely what makes the great theater songs written for the specific characters and shows.

While I can appreciate a song simply as a song, as an exquisite miniature - but what I am most interested in is how songs work in an integrated show. Sondheim's music serves the song's purpose in existing in the play. These are not stand-alone songs, I mean that have been sung outside of the show, but they were written expressly for the show.


----------



## Guest

I take your well-argued points and understand what you mean. However, irrespective of genre, great music for the theatre will stand on its own merits. And I think those songs for the musicals serve many different functions. Think of "Pal Joey" and the songs there which were filled with yearning for the central characters and what they tell us about themselves. It was considered unthinkable at the time to create a musical about a bad man involved in the rackets and render him sympathetic. Same with "Guys and Dolls" later. These stage musicals were well on the way to the formula you describe, starting with the Gershwins.

Singing one thing and meaning another is a alternate, ironic way to imagine these things too. Ergo "Make Believe" in 'Showboat".

And I feel that they do progress the narrative just the way an operatic aria does. The brilliant "My Boy Bill" from "Carousel" aroused sympathy for the audience for a generally unpleasant character by expressing many different aspects of the personality of Billy Bigalow: aggression, vulnerability, empathy, toughness, nervousness, resentment....it's all there in that excellent lyric monologue!! This was Hammerstein at his absolute finest; what a gentle giant that man he was!! In short, I feel that the musicals of Rogers & Hammerstein were born as fully grown as those you describe which are a feature of Stephen Sondheim. I don't want to give the impression that I underestimate the artistry of Sondheim; that would be foolish and ignorant.


----------



## SanAntone

Christabel said:


> I take your well-argued points and understand what you mean. However, irrespective of genre, great music for the theatre will stand on its own merits. And I think those songs for the musicals serve many different functions. Think of "Pal Joey" and the songs there which were filled with yearning for the central characters/. Singing one thing and meaning another is a alternate way to imagine these things too. And I feel that they do progress the narrative just the way an operatic aria does. The brilliant "My Boy Bill" from "Carousel" aroused sympathy for the audience for a generally unpleasant character by expressing many different aspects of the personality of Billy Bigalow: aggression, vulnerability, empathy, toughness, nervousness, resentment....it's all there in that excellent lyric monologue!! This was Hammerstein at his absolute finest; what a gentle giant that man he was!!


Well, _Carousel_ was one of the "new kind" of integrated shows of which Hammerstein was the primary exponent, writing exactly the kind of dramatic song I was talking about.

"Billy's Soliloquy" from Carousel is a masterpiece of musical theater writing.






As a side note, I loved the scene in _Heartburn_ when Jack Nicholson sings this song when he finds out Meryl Streep's pregnant.


----------



## pianozach

SanAntone said:


> More of a flop than _Anyone Can Whistle_? But I like _Merrily_, with the reverse-chrono form, I was always intrigued with that idea.


Anyone Can Whistle is still a rather unique and inventive and subversive show. A bit "Old School" in its formatting and musicality, but the lyrics and dialogue are excellent.

But I thought I'd chime in and mention that I'm helping put together a Retirement Concert for someone I've worked with for decades that ran Youth Theatre. This youth theatre organization puts on both kid productions and teen productions, but the production values are extremely good. Many of this the Young Artists Ensemble have gone on to professional careers, with a handful actually making it to Broadway, often in leading roles.

I mention it because the "director" has put together a lengthy setlist themed around his tenure, and there are several songs from Sondheim. Of the 26 songs in this revue, 10 are Sondheim songs.

*Sunday Sunday in the Park
Old Friends Merrily We Roll Along
I'm Still Here Follies
Finishing the Hat Sunday in the Park
No One is Alone Into the Woods
It Takes Two Into the Woods
Not While I'm Around Sweeney Todd
Goodbye Old Friend Into the Woods
Not a Day Goes By Merrily We Roll Along
Move On Sunday in the Park*

10 songs. 38% of our show is Sondheim. THAT is the impact Sondheim has had. 10 songs that are so powerfully written that they are shoe-ins for this type of thing.


----------



## Guest

Having listened to a bit of "*Into the Woods*" what I hear could be a forerunner to Rap music; very very verbose with little musical accompaniment. This is what I meant when I referred earlier to a "singspiel" style. Perhaps there are longer, lyric numbers but I haven't heard these. Essentially, Sondheim's aesthetic is lyric-dominated. These lyrics take precedence over the music. Or seem to.


----------



## Rogerx

More about the man:

Stephen Sondheim (1930 - 2021): does he have a place in "the canon"?


----------



## Guest

"This Funny World" (Rodgers & Hart) at *14:07*. The equal of "Send in the Clowns". I can't listen to this without feeling a depth of melancholy about the plight of Larry Hart and his lifelong depression:


----------



## jegreenwood

Christabel said:


> As we all know Lorenz "Larry" Hart was a deeply troubled alcoholic and, yes, he drove his partner mad!! Rodgers writes at length about this in his autobiography, "Musical Stages". Nevertheless, I think what I said stands because he was witty, intellectually resourceful, worldly and cultured. Sondheim might have thought him 'glib' but I doubt the average music-lover would reach that conclusion:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Rodgers was the perfect composer for Hart and, boy, didn't he change aesthetically when he joined up with Oscar Hammerstein!! He reverted to operetta!! The music was ravishing, but it was not as varied and complex as it often had been with Hart: for example, the use of the segue. But R&H could be cheesy, ergo "Mountain Greenery".
> 
> I love this:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> People have said Ira was the ideal lyricist for George Gershwin, but I think his rhyming was derived in the most ingenious way; a little like Shakespeare in the sonnets Ira, Hart and Cole Porter were known to turn a line inside out for the purpose of finding the rhyme. This is an extraordinary skill; it's much easier to set prose to music than it is to torture a line to find a rhyme!! (LOL) And, of course, Cole emulated Shakespeare here!! The scansion must match the music, most of it already composed. So that kind of a lyricist is always thinking in smaller units of music, it seems to me.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is genius!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And more strained rhyming:
> 
> Summer journeys to Niagara
> And to other places aggravate all our cares
> We'll save our fares
> I've a cozy little flat in
> What is known as old Manhattan
> We'll settle down
> Right here in town
> We'll have Manhattan
> The Bronx and Staten Island too
> It's lovely going through the zoo
> It's very fancy on old Delancey Street, you know
> The Subway charms us so
> When barmy breezes blow to-and-fro
> And tell me what street
> Compares with Mott Street in July?
> Sweet pushcarts gently gliding by
> The great big city's a wonderous toy
> Just made for a girl and boy
> We'll turn Manhatten into an isle of joy
> We'll go to Yonkers
> Where true love conquers in the whiles
> And starve together dear in Chiles
> We'll go to Coney and eat baloney on a roll
> In Central Park we'll stroll
> Where our first kiss we stole
> Soul to soul
> *And 'My Fair Lady' is a terrific show, they say
> We both may see it close some day
> *The city's glamour can never spoil
> The dreams of a boy and girl
> We'll turn Manhattan into an isle of joy


Actually, he didn't see it open (in 1956) 

The original was:

Our future babies
We'll take to _Abie's
Irish Rose_
I hope they'll live to see
It close

If you don't know the book _Reading Lyrics_, you need to pick it up, if for no other reason, it includes all of the Cole Porter verses that never get included on the recordings (_e.g._ all seven verses of "You're the Top."

p.s. _I Wish I Were in Love Again_ is one of my favorite Rodgers & Hart songs. I have that album, but my favorite version is Sinatra with Nelson Riddle's arrangement (even if they skip the intro).


----------



## SanAntone

Wonderful interview of Sondheim with Adam Guettel (Mary Rodger's son, grandson of Richard Rodgers)

*The Art of Songwriting with Stephen Sondheim and Adam Guettel*






Adam Guettel is an accomplished songwriter in his own right and may be the logical successor to Sondheim.


----------



## fluteman

SanAntone said:


> I think you are comparing two different generations of theater writers, i.e. Hart and Porter were writing for shows prior to the Rodger/Hammerstein integrated show (which Sondheim inherited), and the songs were stand alone set pieces.
> 
> Sondheim was writing for characters in a situation. Larry Hart seemed to write the same kind of song no matter who was singing it, whereas Sondheim was very careful to put only those words in the mouths of his actors which were appropriate for the character they were playing.
> 
> I find Sondheim's songs more sophisticated than either Hart or Porter, whose lyrics seem writerly, false for how people express themselves, and one dimensional regarding what they are saying.


Lots of good comments here, I'd just add one point to this particular issue. The Broadway musical, a theatrical / musical form that dates back in many ways to the mid-19th century, evolved radically in the mid-20th century, thanks largely to some of the individuals discussed here, especially Hammerstein and Sondheim.

This evolution, revolution really, struck me when I saw Crazy For You on Broadway, essentially a reworking of the Gershwins' Girl Crazy of 1930. Even in its more structured form, the show still is little more than an excuse to sing some of the greatest songs in the history of American popular music. There isn't much going on of any dramatic weight, in the old Broadway tradition. When someone on stage suddenly breaks out into They Can't Take That Away From Me, it is as if a Beethoven symphony has suddenly broken out in the middle of a vaudeville comedy routine.

Oklahoma!, South Pacific and Carousel, and ultimately West Side Story, which I consider the first fully modern Broadway musical, are from another world entirely, with meaningful drama woven into music, lyrics and even choreography. Bernstein's music and Robbins' choreography were equally revolutionary. Sondheim's deceptively simple lyrics work perfectly.

Is there a greater, more gripping or more original number in Broadway musical history than Cool from West Side Story? I hear more than an echo of Cool in Sweeney Todd. Ironically, Sondheim turned out to be the standard bearer of that new Broadway musical tradition, as Bernstein's well ran dry.

As for Larry Hart, I see him (and Ira Gershwin) as representing a high point, maybe the high point, of old tradition song lyrics, supremely clever but not so meaningful dramatically. When Rodgers discarded him in favor of Hammerstein, the change was profound.


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## SanAntone

*What's your favorite Sondheim show? *

Mine is _Passion_.

*Which do you think is his best show?*

I don't know the answer to this one off the top of my head. I'll have to listen to them again and post my idea later.


----------



## SanAntone

fluteman said:


> Lots of good comments here, I'd just add one point to this particular issue. The Broadway musical, a theatrical / musical form that dates back in many ways to the mid-19th century, evolved radically in the mid-20th century, thanks largely to some of the individuals discussed here, especially Hammerstein and Sondheim.
> 
> This evolution, revolution really, struck me when I saw Crazy For You on Broadway, essentially a reworking of the Gershwins' Girl Crazy of 1930. Even in its more structured form, the show still is little more than an excuse to sing some of the greatest songs in the history of American popular music. There isn't much going on of any dramatic weight, in the old Broadway tradition. When someone on stage suddenly breaks out into They Can't Take That Away From Me, it is as if a Beethoven symphony has suddenly broken out in the middle of a vaudeville comedy routine.
> 
> Oklahoma!, South Pacific and Carousel, and ultimately West Side Story, which I consider the first fully modern Broadway musical, are from another world entirely, with meaningful drama woven into music, lyrics and even choreography. Bernstein's music and Robbins' choreography were equally revolutionary. Sondheim's deceptively simple lyrics work perfectly.
> 
> Is there a greater, more gripping or more original number in Broadway musical history than Cool from West Side Story? I hear more than an echo of Cool in Sweeny Todd. Ironically, Sondheim turned out to be the standard bearer of that new Broadway musical tradition, as Bernstein's well ran dry.
> 
> As for Larry Hart, I see him (and Ira Gershwin) as representing a high point, maybe the high point, of old tradition song lyrics, supremely clever but not so meaningful dramatically. When Rodgers discarded him in favor of Hammerstein, the change was profound.


Great post, and one I agree with completely. :tiphat:

One can't say enough about the composers and lyricists of the Great American Songbook. I've got several series of CDs of that canon of music.


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## jegreenwood

What's your favorite Sondheim show?

_Sweeney Todd_ followed by _Follies_ (great score, lousy book) and _Gypsy_ - an almost perfectly integrated musical with one of the greatest character portraits of all time

Kenneth Tynan on _Gypsy_ "[T]apers off from perfection in the first half to mere brilliance in the second."

Which do you think is his best show?

_Sweeney Todd_


----------



## SanAntone

jegreenwood said:


> What's your favorite Sondheim show?
> 
> _Sweeney Todd_ followed by _Follies_ (great score, lousy book) and _Gypsy_ - an almost perfectly integrated musical with one one of the greatest character portraits of all time
> 
> Kenneth Tynan on _Gypsy_ "[T]apers off from perfection in the first half to mere brilliance in the second."
> 
> Which do you think is his best show?
> 
> _Sweeney Todd_


I was wondering if someone would mention _Gypsy_ - the best of his lyrics-only shows - and one of the best musicals ever written. But I could never choose as my favorite one for which he didn't write the music.

He talks about how he would give Jule Styne the rhythm he used for the lyrics, i.e. note values without pitches (at least for the first 8 bars), and Styne sculpted them into the full melody and harmony. Apparently Jule Styne liked to have it. It's also what Cole Porter did, and where Sondheim got the idea.


----------



## SanAntone

Sondheim's last show was _Road Show/Bounce_ written with John Weidman.








> Road Show (previously titled Bounce, and before that Wise Guys, and Gold!) is a musical with music and lyrics by Stephen Sondheim and a book by John Weidman. It tells the story of Addison Mizner and his brother Wilson Mizner's adventures across America from the beginning of the twentieth century during the Klondike gold rush to the Florida real estate boom of the 1920s. The musical takes considerable liberties with the facts of the brothers' lives.
> 
> The history and evolution of the show are extraordinarily complex, with numerous different versions and recordings. After a 1999 workshop in New York City, the musical was produced in Chicago and Washington, D.C. in 2003 under the title Bounce, but it did not achieve much success. A revised version of the musical premiered Off-Broadway in New York in October 2008. (Wikipedia)


Two cast recordings are available:

An original cast recording of the 2003 version (then titled Bounce) was released on May 4, 2004 by Nonesuch Records.










An original cast recording of the 2008 Public Theater production was released June 30, 2009 by PS Classics and Nonesuch Records.


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## SanAntone

Sondheim's Mantra:

*1. Content dictates form and style

2. Less is more

3. God is in the details.*

"If you stick to those three things, you can't write bad. But it's just hard to do."


----------



## SanAntone

jegreenwood said:


> If you don't know the book _Reading Lyrics_, you need to pick it up, if for no other reason, it includes all of the Cole Porter verses that never get included on the recordings (_e.g._ all seven verses of "You're the Top."


I'd also suggest the book American Popular Song by Alec Wilder (a good songwriter himself)



> p.s. _I Wish I Were in Love Again_ is one of my favorite Rodgers & Hart songs. I have that album, but my favorite version is Sinatra with Nelson Riddle's arrangement (even if they skip the intro).


Last night I watched the Lincoln Center concert version of _Carousel_. Fantastic. For my money, Rodgers & Hammerstein were the best, most consistent, and prolific, of the musical theater teams.


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## pianozach

*What's your favorite Sondheim show? *

It's a tough call, but _*Into the Woods*_ is the most satisfying.

*Which do you think is his best show?*

*Sweeney Todd* is brilliant.

I've seen _*Passion*_ once, with a group of friends. We went out for snacks after the show and ended up discussing for at least an hour. It provoked a lot of emotions, notably the discussion about the lack of emotion, and the overdose of emotion in the show.


----------



## Guest

SanAntone said:


> I'd also suggest the book American Popular Song by Alec Wilder (a good songwriter himself)
> 
> Last night I watched the Lincoln Center concert version of _Carousel_. Fantastic. For my money, Rodgers & Hammerstein were the best, most consistent, and prolific, of the musical theater teams.


It's hard to disagree with you here. But one 'show' which we've all forgotten about and which also revolutionized the AMT (American Musical Theatre) is, of course, "Porgy and Bess". Many people believe that's an opera, but wasn't this way ahead of its time in terms of what was happening on Broadway. The work produced much criticism, but I regard it as the finest work for the non-operatic stage composed in the 20th century, alongside "West Side Story". Those two were the twin peaks of the 20th century, for me personally. And "Show Boat" wouldn't be far behind. Each, in their own unique way, propelled that art form into the stratosphere that Sondheim came to inhabit. The enduring tragedy is, of course, the Gershwin story.

All three of these great works were about race. Just saying.


----------



## SanAntone

Christabel said:


> It's hard to disagree with you here. But one 'show' which we've all forgotten about and which also revolutionized the AMT (American Musical Theatre) is, of course, "Porgy and Bess". Many people believe that's an opera, but wasn't this way ahead of its time in terms of what was happening on Broadway. The work produced much criticism, but I regard it as the finest work for the non-operatic stage composed in the 20th century, alongside "West Side Story". Those two were the twin peaks of the 20th century, for me personally. And "Show Boat" wouldn't be far behind. Each, in their own unique way, propelled that art form into the stratosphere that Sondheim came to inhabit. The enduring tragedy is, of course, the Gershwin story.
> 
> All three of these great works were about race. Just saying.


I agree with your assessment of _Porgy & Bess_ - but it is an opera with recitative, arias, ensembles, and chorus scenes.

I also ran across a quote in a recent book I've been reading, which jumped out at me in light of your comment that Sondheim was a "non-intellectual."

"Sondheim is, after all, the man who intellectualized the American musical, much as Eugene O'Neill intellectualized American drama and William Faulkner intellectualized American fiction, and Sondheim should-where it is relevant-be viewed as much in the broader perspective of the arts as in the more limited survey of the musical per se."

- _On Sondheim: An Opinionated Guide_ by Ethan Mordden

Sure, just another guy's opinion, but one which I share, and one which I think a number of people among Sondheim's audience identify with him and his work.


----------



## jegreenwood

SanAntone said:


> I'd also suggest the book American Popular Song by Alec Wilder (a good songwriter himself)
> 
> Last night I watched the Lincoln Center concert version of _Carousel_. Fantastic. For my money, Rodgers & Hammerstein were the best, most consistent, and prolific, of the musical theater teams.


A warning on _American Popular Song_. DO NOT BUY THE KINDLE VERSION. The musical illustrations are impossible to decipher. At least that was the case when I bought it.


----------



## jegreenwood

SanAntone said:


> I was wondering if someone would mention _Gypsy_ - the best of his lyrics-only shows - and one of the best musicals ever written. But I could never choose as my favorite one for which he didn't write the music.
> 
> He talks about how he would give Jule Styne the rhythm he used for the lyrics, i.e. note values without pitches (at least for the first 8 bars), and Styne sculpted them into the full melody and harmony. Apparently Jule Styne liked to have it. It's also what Cole Porter did, and where Sondheim got the idea.


Sondheim also expresses his dismay when he found out on opening night that one of Styne's melodies had already been used in another of his shows.


----------



## Guest

SanAntone said:


> I agree with your assessment of _Porgy & Bess_ - but it is an opera with recitative, arias, ensembles, and chorus scenes.
> 
> I also ran across a quote in a recent book I've been reading, which jumped out at me in light of your comment that Sondheim was a "non-intellectual."
> 
> "Sondheim is, after all, the man who intellectualized the American musical, much as Eugene O'Neill intellectualized American drama and William Faulkner intellectualized American fiction, and Sondheim should-where it is relevant-be viewed as much in the broader perspective of the arts as in the more limited survey of the musical per se."
> 
> - _On Sondheim: An Opinionated Guide_ by Ethan Mordden
> 
> Sure, just another guy's opinion, but one which I share, and one which I think a number of people among Sondheim's audience identify with him and his work.


I remember arguments about "Porgy and Bess" decades ago when I was studying Musicology; nobody could agree then but I'm sure it is an opera but it wasn't 'marketed' that way for a long time. We know that Gershwin had one foot planted on Broadway and the other in Carnegie Hall, so I guess this isn't surprising. The tragedy is that he didn't live long enough to do what Leonard Bernstein did; inhabit both worlds.

I couldn't put Sondheim into the same category as Eugene O'Neill in terms of intellectualism. I didn't really mean 'intellectualizing' per se, as I don't regard that as necessarily a positive for musical theatre. The Columbia University raconteur, which was part of the otherwise shambolic Larry Hart, reminded me of Monty Wooley and Cole Porter. Though these guys wrote popular music for the theatre, there was a level of learned sophistication in their words - at times bordering actually on bookish. Think of Porter's "You're the Top" as a case in point. Though he used popular cultural references - Garbo, cellophane, etc - this was essentially a song about epicureanism (in our modern understanding of that word). Though the words referred to "you" I always felt Porter was talking about himself!! Similarly with the lyrics of Hart; he had the incredible skill of legerdemain which enabled him to hide the quotidian amongst the intellectual; ergo, 'beans could get _no keener reception_...". Not just a miracle of scansion in "Mountain Greenery" but an insight into the thinking process of a man who inherently celebrated success and notoriety.

The clues are everywhere in his writing, and this is one of the many 'advantages' of song-writing which adopts a life of its own way beyond the context of its composition: the meaning can have cultural relevance which transcends its milieu. "Mountain Greenery" is about a home, a kitchen (as was "Thou Swell") - something from which Hart felt personally excluded - but if you looked deeper into those words you'll find Hart the thinker, the intellectual. "I Wish I were in Love Again": a phenomenal understanding of love going off the rails in one way but, then, never really going away after all. The fondness is in the 'conversation with the flying plates'. The tropes of troubled relationships there, in verse form, in a little over 3 minutes! "And the world discovers, as my book ends, how to make true lovers of friends": the plot, the denouement and the conclusion.

That's what I meant. Sondheim's "Send in the Clowns" is straight out of the Hart playbook!! Perhaps I'm just not familiar enough with the works of Stephen Sondheim.


----------



## SanAntone

jegreenwood said:


> A warning on _American Popular Song_. DO NOT BUY THE KINDLE VERSION. The musical illustrations are impossible to decipher. At least that was the case when I bought it.


Which is why I linked to the paperback. I am skeptical of any Kindle book with music examples and have had return a few because of format issues.



jegreenwood said:


> Sondheim also expresses his dismay when he found out on opening night that one of Styne's melodies had already been used in another of his shows.


I should get down the Hat books since I've only read parts of them and haven't looked at the chapter on Gypsy.


----------



## SanAntone

Christabel said:


> I couldn't put Sondheim into the same category as Eugene O'Neill in terms of intellectualism. I didn't really mean 'intellectualizing' per se, as I don't regard that as necessarily a positive for musical theatre. The Columbia University raconteur, which was part of the otherwise shambolic Larry Hart, reminded me of Monty Wooley and Cole Porter. Though these guys wrote popular music for the theatre, there was a level of learned sophistication in their words - at times bordering actually on bookish. Think of Porter's "You're the Top" as a case in point. Though he used popular cultural references - Garbo, cellophane, etc - this was essentially a song about epicureanism (in our modern understanding of that word). Though the words referred to "you" I always felt Porter was talking about himself!! Similarly with the lyrics of Hart; he had the incredible skill of legerdemain which enabled him to hide the quotidian amongst the intellectual; ergo, 'beans could get _no keener reception_...". Not just a miracle of scansion in "Mountain Greenery" but an insight into the thinking process of a man who inherently celebrated success and notoriety.
> 
> The clues are everywhere in his writing, and this is one of the many 'advantages' of song-writing which adopts a life of its own way beyond the context of its composition: the meaning can have cultural relevance which transcends its milieu. "Mountain Greenery" is about a home, a kitchen (as was "Thou Swell") - something from which Hart felt personally excluded - but if you looked deeper into those words you'll find Hart the thinker, the intellectual. "I Wish I were in Love Again": a phenomenal understanding of love going off the rails in one way but, then, never really going away after all. The fondness is in the 'conversation with the flying plates'. The tropes of troubled relationships there, in verse form, in a little over 3 minutes! "And the world discovers, as my book ends, how to make true lovers of friends": the plot, the denouement and the conclusion.


I think where we part ways concerning Hart, and to a lesser degree Porter, is over his style and priorities. Of course I recognize the quality of Hart's lyrics. But it is a style of songwriting I am not particularly interested in, and consider obsolete.

I am not interested in clever wordplay, puns, imaginative rhyme, or cultural references, *unless they advance narrative and/or character* (and that is more often done without being overly clever). IMO the use of language is always a means to an end (i.e. the purpose of the song in a show) and not a goal in itself.


----------



## Guest

I understand your point. But what you're really talking about is the musical *as a play*; I'm much more interested in the music and how the lyrics serve that music rather than advancing a narrative in a play - which, in the case of Sondheim, just happens to be sung rather than spoken. It would be like going to the opera and saying of Puccini "I don't really like those arias because, while they are clever with their key-changes, da capo and structure, they don't develop the character and the plot". Few things are as absurd as a 'plot' in an opera; the older the opera the more absurd the plot. Music can't be there just to serve a narrative function, surely. There otherwise would be no distinction between musical theatre and conventional plays - except one requires instruments. And in how many plays have real character and narrative been advanced? Certainly not Harold Pinter, Tom Stoppard et al. What of some of the operas of Philip Glass?

Ergo, what I'm suggesting is that Sondheim's work (apart from WSS) is essentially sung plot and character (my earlier reference to 'singspiel'). Both these things could be done in conventional plays. I've often wondered what *IS* the purpose of it being set to music?

That's my main 'beef' about these particular works. Too wordy, in much the same way that Wilde was too wordy in his plays. How many ways can you set 'pass the salt' to music?


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## fluteman

Christabel said:


> It's hard to disagree with you here. But one 'show' which we've all forgotten about and which also revolutionized the AMT (American Musical Theatre) is, of course, "Porgy and Bess". Many people believe that's an opera, but wasn't this way ahead of its time in terms of what was happening on Broadway. The work produced much criticism, but I regard it as the finest work for the non-operatic stage composed in the 20th century, alongside "West Side Story". Those two were the twin peaks of the 20th century, for me personally. And "Show Boat" wouldn't be far behind. Each, in their own unique way, propelled that art form into the stratosphere that Sondheim came to inhabit. The enduring tragedy is, of course, the Gershwin story.
> 
> All three of these great works were about race. Just saying.


Agreed, but I would add West Side Story to that impressive list.


----------



## SanAntone

Christabel said:


> I understand your point. But what you're really talking about is the musical *as a play*; I'm much more interested in the music and how the lyrics serve that music rather than advancing a narrative in a play - which, in the case of Sondheim, just happens to be sung rather than spoken. It would be like going to the opera and saying of Puccini "I don't really like those arias because, while they are clever with their key-changes and structure, they don't develop the character and the plot". Few things are as absurd as a 'plot' in an opera; the older the opera the more absurd the plot. Music can't be there just to serve a narrative function, surely.
> 
> Ergo, what I'm suggesting is that Sondheim's work (apart from WSS) is essential spoken plot and character (my earlier reference to 'singspiel'). Both these things could be done in conventional plays. I've often wondered what *IS* the purpose of it being set to music?
> 
> That's my main 'beef' about these particular works. Too wordy, in the same way that Wilde was too wordy in his plays. How many ways can you set 'pass the salt' to music?


The musical is a play with songs; or it can be a revue - but even revues have some kind of narrative concept which orders the songs and creates a context.

Also, Sondheim's shows are all different in some basic way. But they are all tuneful, and well developed musically.

I really don't know how to respond to your comments since your impression is diametrically opposed to my own. Almost as if you've only read about the shows but not seen or listened to them.


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## jegreenwood

SanAntone said:


> Which is why I linked to the paperback. I am skeptical of any Kindle book with music examples and have had return a few because of format issues.
> 
> I should get down the Hat books since I've only read parts of them and haven't looked at the chapter on Gypsy.


That wasn't an option when I was searching. Looks like they're planning to issue a new edition at some future date.


----------



## Guest

SanAntone said:


> The musical is a play with songs; or it can be a revue - but even revues have some kind of narrative concept which orders the songs and creates a context.
> 
> Also, Sondheim's shows are all different in some basic way. But they are all tuneful, and well developed musically.
> 
> I really don't know how to respond to your comments since your impression is diametrically opposed to my own. Almost as if you've only read about the shows but not seen or listened to them.


I have seen a couple of them. But, finally, it's a difference of opinion on what constitutes a "musical". I've often thought "Singspiel" is a useful term which could be employed for the Sondheim shows, as I've said twice before. I've not been to the theatre to see one live but have seen only electronic performances - and parts of shows. To be very frank, I tuned out and stopped watching because they were just yammering on too much. Wasn't it Sondheim himself who declared "less is more"?


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## fluteman

Christabel said:


> I have seen a couple of them. But, finally, it's a difference of opinion on what constitutes a "musical". I've often thought "Singspiel" is a useful term which could be employed for the Sondheim shows, as I've said twice before. I've not been to the theatre to see one live but have seen only electronic performances - and parts of shows. To be very frank, I tuned out and stopped watching because they were just yammering on too much. Wasn't it Sondheim himself who declared "less is more"?


I for one am not going to pick a fight with you. Not after those marathon threads in which I tried in vain to convince certain denizens here that their favorite music is not inherently superior to anything else. If I was being strictly honest, I'd concede that one of the most enjoyable Broadway shows I've ever seen was something called Five Guys Named Moe, which consisted of just enough entertaining shtick to link together a series of Louis Jordan songs. Talk about lack of intellectual or dramatic content of any kind. I loved it. When audience members were invited to form a conga line that snaked around the theater and onto the stage, I joined it without hesitation. So you are welcome to your tastes.

However, you will have trouble convincing me that A Funny Thing Happened on the Way to the Forum is not one of the funniest Broadway musicals ever, if not the funniest. Its signature song, Comedy Tonight, is an instantly recognizable standard.


----------



## jegreenwood

Christabel said:


> I understand your point. But what you're really talking about is the musical *as a play*; I'm much more interested in the music and how the lyrics serve that music rather than advancing a narrative in a play - which, in the case of Sondheim, just happens to be sung rather than spoken. It would be like going to the opera and saying of Puccini "I don't really like those arias because, while they are clever with their key-changes, da capo and structure, they don't develop the character and the plot". Few things are as absurd as a 'plot' in an opera; the older the opera the more absurd the plot. Music can't be there just to serve a narrative function, surely. There otherwise would be no distinction between musical theatre and conventional plays - except one requires instruments. And in how many plays have real character and narrative been advanced? Certainly not Harold Pinter, Tom Stoppard et al. What of some of the operas of Philip Glass?
> 
> Ergo, what I'm suggesting is that Sondheim's work (apart from WSS) is essentially sung plot and character (my earlier reference to 'singspiel'). Both these things could be done in conventional plays. I've often wondered what *IS* the purpose of it being set to music?
> 
> That's my main 'beef' about these particular works. Too wordy, in much the same way that Wilde was too wordy in his plays. How many ways can you set 'pass the salt' to music?


But so many of Sondheim's songs work brilliantly outside the context of the shows they are from. Type Sondheim into Amazon's search page and you'll not only see multiple original and revival cast recordings, but dozens of tribute albums, whether the recording of an event or the work of an individual artist.

One more thing - the most famous singspiel scene in Broadway history was not by Sondheim. It's "If I Loved You" from _Carousel_.

(I'll refrain from commenting on Pinter and Stoppard - two of my favorite playwrights.)


----------



## jegreenwood

fluteman said:


> I for one am not going to pick a fight with you. Not after those marathon threads in which I tried in vain to convince certain denizens here that their favorite music is not inherently superior to anything else. If I was being strictly honest, I'd concede that one of the most enjoyable Broadway shows I've ever seen was something called Five Guys Named Moe, which consisted of just enough entertaining shtick to link together a series of Louis Jordan songs. Talk about lack of intellectual or dramatic content of any kind. I loved it. When audience members were invited to form a conga line that snaked around the theater and onto the stage, I joined it without hesitation. So you are welcome to your tastes.
> 
> However, you will have trouble convincing me that A Funny Thing Happened on the Way to the Forum is not one of the funniest Broadway musicals ever, if not the funniest. * Its signature song, Comedy Tonight, is an instantly recognizable standard.*


Written out of town after the show bombed in D.C. And choreographed by Jerome Robbins.


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## pianozach

Christabel said:


> *I have seen a couple of them.* But, finally, it's a difference of opinion on what constitutes a "musical". I've often thought "Singspiel" is a useful term which could be employed for the Sondheim shows, as I've said twice before. *I've not been to the theatre to see one live* but have seen only electronic performances - and parts of shows. To be very frank, I tuned out and stopped watching because they were just yammering on too much. Wasn't it Sondheim himself who declared "less is more"?


Pray tell, which two?

Never mind, it doesn't really matter.

Oh wait. You've never even actually attended a performance of one.

It seems to me that you are blathering on about a composer's works without being familiar with them. Either you're making up opinions out of thin air, or relying on the others' words.

You are unfamiliar with Sondheim's works, yet seem firm in telling us you know why he "sucks". :lol:


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## SanAntone

I've been listening to the two Sondheim shows which I had never heard before: _The Frogs_ (1974) and _Road Show_ (2008) his last show. _Road Show_ had a complicated history of development and went under several different titles, but as Sondheim's last work it demands some consideration.

_The Frogs_ was a relatively early work, dates from 1974 - but it was first a play written and directed by *Burt Shevelove* in 1941, while he was a graduate student at Yale University. It is an adaptation of _The Frogs_ by *Aristophanes*. The book for the musical was also written by Shevelove and Sondheim wrote the music and lyrics.

The show was produced on Broadway in 2004 with the book revised by *Nathan Lane* and the score expanded by Sondheim. This was revived in London in 2017.

There are two recordings of the score available, both starring Nathan Lane. The first is a studio performance with Lane, Brian Stokes Mitchell, and Davis Gaines released in 2001 by Nonesuch Records, which also contains a complete recording of Sondheim's _Evening Primrose_ songs.

The 2004 Broadway production starring Lane and Roger Bart was released by PS Classics.

_The Frogs_ shares a style and attitude with _A Funny Thing Happened on the Way to the Forum_






Wow. I'm reading the chapter in _Finishing the Hat_ (FTH) on _The Frogs_. It sounds like a personal and professional nightmare for Sondheim, and a disaster for the show.


----------



## Guest

pianozach said:


> Pray tell, which two?
> 
> Never mind, it doesn't really matter.
> 
> Oh wait. You've never even actually attended a performance of one.
> 
> It seems to me that you are blathering on about a composer's works without being familiar with them. Either you're making up opinions out of thin air, or relying on the others' words.
> 
> You are unfamiliar with Sondheim's works, yet seem firm in telling us you know why he "sucks". :lol:







And years ago "Sunday in the Park with George".

You don't need to take it personally that somebody doesn't share your opinions. I didn't say he 'sucks' as I wouldn't use language like that to evaluate a composer's work (Ok, there are a couple of exceptions). He made a substantial achievement, probably the greatest American lyricist in the modern age; I just don't happen to enjoy that particular kind of musical.


----------



## Guest

jegreenwood said:


> But so many of Sondheim's songs work brilliantly outside the context of the shows they are from. Type Sondheim into Amazon's search page and you'll not only see multiple original and revival cast recordings, but dozens of tribute albums, whether the recording of an event or the work of an individual artist.
> 
> One more thing - the most famous singspiel scene in Broadway history was not by Sondheim. It's "If I Loved You" from _Carousel_.
> 
> (I'll refrain from commenting on Pinter and Stoppard - two of my favorite playwrights.)


You're entitled to your opinion about those playwrights; I was making a point about character development and cohesive narrative, as this was raised on terms of earlier musicals lacking same! When I make an objective comment it is answered by opinion rather than addressing the issue. I'm glad you agree that "singspiel" is relevant to musical theatre!!

I think you'll find those two playwrights I mentioned were inherently post-modernist and I suspect this aesthetic has informed, to some extent at least, Stephen Sondheim - but I'm open to being wrong about that.


----------



## fluteman

jegreenwood said:


> Written out of town after the show bombed in D.C. And choreographed by Jerome Robbins.


Sorry, I'm too young to know about such details. But I stand by my post. If you can name a funnier Broadway musical, please do so. Not only will I not try to argue with you, I'll try to see the show you name if I haven't already, even if only on video.


----------



## jegreenwood

SanAntone said:


> I've been listening to the two Sondheim shows which I had never heard before: _The Frogs_ (1974) and _Road Show_ (2008) his last show. _Road Show_ had a complicated history of development and went under several different titles, but as Sondheim's last work it demands some consideration.
> 
> _The Frogs_ was a relatively early work, dates from 1974 - but it was first a play written and directed by *Burt Shevelove* in 1941, while he was a graduate student at Yale University. It is an adaptation of _The Frogs_ by *Aristophanes*. The book for the musical was also written by Shevelove and Sondheim wrote the music and lyrics.
> 
> The show was produced on Broadway in 2004 with the book revised by *Nathan Lane* and the score expanded by Sondheim. This was revived in London in 2017.
> 
> There are two recordings of the score available, both starring Nathan Lane. The first is a studio performance with Lane, Brian Stokes Mitchell, and Davis Gaines released in 2001 by Nonesuch Records, which also contains a complete recording of Sondheim's _Evening Primrose_ songs.
> 
> The 2004 Broadway production starring Lane and Roger Bart was released by PS Classics.
> 
> *The Frogs shares a style and attitude with A Funny Thing Happened on the Way to the Forum*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Wow. I'm reading the chapter in _Finishing the Hat_ (FTH) on _The Frogs_. It sounds like a personal and professional nightmare for Sondheim, and a disaster for the show.


And a song - the "Invocation" was originally written (with somewhat different lyrics) for _Forum_. It didn't work. Nor did the replacement. With some guidance from Robbins (see above), Sondheim's third try, "Comedy Tonight", did.

Details in the _Finishing the Hat._


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## Guest

fluteman said:


> I for one am not going to pick a fight with you. Not after those marathon threads in which I tried in vain to convince certain denizens here that their favorite music is not inherently superior to anything else. If I was being strictly honest, I'd concede that one of the most enjoyable Broadway shows I've ever seen was something called Five Guys Named Moe, which consisted of just enough entertaining shtick to link together a series of Louis Jordan songs. Talk about lack of intellectual or dramatic content of any kind. I loved it. When audience members were invited to form a conga line that snaked around the theater and onto the stage, I joined it without hesitation. So you are welcome to your tastes.
> 
> However, you will have trouble convincing me that A Funny Thing Happened on the Way to the Forum is not one of the funniest Broadway musicals ever, if not the funniest. Its signature song, Comedy Tonight, is an instantly recognizable standard.


I wasn't talking about 'superiority' in musicals, but I was explaining WHY I enjoy mine so much more using analysis and argument about lyrics.

And I enjoyed your comments about that show you liked with Louis Jourdan. Sometimes we can seem too pompous in our choices; and we need to remember that many of those earliest musical from the Gershwin Brothers were huge fun too: I'm thinking of the hilarious "Dresden Northwest Mounted" from "Pardon My English". And the deliciously funny cultural references!!


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## jegreenwood

fluteman said:


> Sorry, I'm too young to know about such details. But I stand by my post. If you can name a funnier Broadway musical, please do so. Not only will I not try to argue with you, I'll try to see the show you name if I haven't already, even if only on video.


I love _Forum_. I have the far from as good movie on my DVR. I've also seen two revival productions, the first with Phil Silvers for whom Pseudolus was written - he turned it down the first time.


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## Guest

Wonderful, literate lyrics in a narrative song from the pen of a master:


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## fluteman

Christabel said:


> I wasn't talking about 'superiority' in musicals, but I was explaining WHY I enjoy mine so much more using analysis and argument about lyrics.
> 
> And I enjoyed your comments about that show you liked with Louis Jourdan. Sometimes we can seem too pompous in our choices; and we need to remember that many of those earliest musical from the Gershwin Brothers were huge fun too: I'm thinking of the hilarious "Dresden Northwest Mounted" from "Pardon My English". And the deliciously funny cultural references!!


Yes, your post was a perfect example of how to express a negative opinion -- with an explanation that makes sense. I enjoy your posts too. And frankly, while I am a Sondheim fan, and a Stoppard fan too, btw, I understand theirs are far from the only possible approaches for successful theater. My wife isn't a Stoppard fan, because for her there is too much talk and it's too fast. She would think the same of some of Sondheim's work, for sure.


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## Guest

I think Stoppard is an immensely clever wordsmith, so nobody should misunderstand me about this, but this particular style of theatre doesn't appeal to me. I need to have 'breathing space' to be able to take on what is said; rather like jokes which keep coming too quickly to appreciate all of them fully. And I'm a great advocate of the 'less is more principle' - in music, film and theatre. Please don't ask me to define this; it's ineffable!!


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## SanAntone

*Northern Ireland Opera to Present Sondheim's 'Into The Woods'*

On February 3, 2022, Northern Ireland Opera will return to Belfast's Lyric Theatre for their production of Stephen Sondheim and James Lapine's "Into The Woods."

Directed by Cameron Menzies, this production will be the third held at the venue, following NIO's sold-out productions of "The Threepenny Opera," "Sweeney Todd," and "Kiss Me Kate." The cast is yet to be announced, but Kate Watkins' production team includes choreographer Jennifer Rooney, set and costume designer Niall McKeever, lighting designer Kevin Treacy, and production manager Padraig O Duinin.


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## Guest

jegreenwood said:


> I love _Forum_. I have the far from as good movie on my DVR. I've also seen two revival productions, the first with Phil Silvers for whom Pseudolus was written - he turned it down the first time.


From memory _Forum_ was the very last film for Buster Keaton. I have always been a huge fan of Keaton's silent films, especially his magnificent "The General", but his declining years were very sad indeed. He seemed lost somehow.


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## jegreenwood

Christabel said:


> From memory _Forum_ was the very last film for Buster Keaton. I have always been a huge fan of Keaton's silent films, especially his magnificent "The General", but his declining years were very sad indeed. He seemed lost somehow.


Mostel, Silvers, Keaton and Jack Gilford (also repeating his role in the stage version) make up quite a team. Add a young Michael Crawford as the romantic lead.


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## fluteman

jegreenwood said:


> Mostel, Silvers, Keaton and Jack Gilford (also repeating his role in the stage version) make up quite a team. Add a young Michael Crawford as the romantic lead.


Yes! I haven't seen that movie in many years, but I remember them. IIRC, Mostel went from the Broadway production of Forum to star in Fiddler on the Roof. Then he left Fiddler to do the movie version of Forum, and his understudy Harry Goz took over. Fiddler with Goz in the starring role was the very first Broadway show I attended. Goz was fantastic, as he had obviously learned much from watching Mostel, but was much younger (in his 30s) and more physically energetic.


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## jegreenwood

fluteman said:


> Yes! I haven't seen that movie in many years, but I remember them. IIRC, Mostel went from the Broadway production of Forum to star in Fiddler on the Roof. Then he left Fiddler to do the movie version of Forum, and his understudy Harry Goz took over. Fiddler with Goz in the starring role was the very first Broadway show I attended. Goz was fantastic, as he had obviously learned much from watching Mostel, but was much younger (in his 30s) and more physically energetic.


Getting away from Sondheim again, but . . . this is fun.

Mostel drove Robbins crazy as he would not stick to the script in _Fiddler_. Probably did the same in _Forum_ but you can get away with it there.

I saw Mostel on stage only once in _Ulysses in Nighttown_, a dramatization of the "Circe" chapter of _Ulysses_. Interesting that he played Leopold Bloom in this production and played against Leo Bloom (Gene Wilder) in _The Producers_.


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## fluteman

jegreenwood said:


> Getting away from Sondheim again, but . . . this is fun.
> 
> Mostel drove Robbins crazy as he would not stick to the script in _Fiddler_. Probably did the same in _Forum_ but you can get away with it there.
> 
> I saw Mostel on stage only once in _Ulysses in Nighttown_, a dramatization of the "Circe" chapter of _Ulysses_. Interesting that he played Leopold Bloom in this production and played against Leo Bloom (Gene Wilder) in _The Producers_.


Not entirely getting away from Sondheim, as he was a major influence on most of what followed him, and still follows him, in Broadway musicals.


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## jegreenwood

Nice article in today's NY Times about the increased interest in Sondheim:

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/12/08/theater/stephen-sondheim-music-shows.html

It includes this Tweet from the country's most important theater critic:

"Stephen Sondheim's work will be discovered and rediscovered for generations to come. As I mentioned during tonight's Kennedy Center Honorees Reception at the White House, Sondheim was in a class of his own as a composer and lyricist."

Joe Biden

The Times must have published ten articles about Sondheim since his death. Maybe more,


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## Guest

fluteman said:


> Not entirely getting away from Sondheim, as he was a major influence on most of what followed him, and still follows him, in Broadway musicals.


How would you assess his impact, if any, on Mel Brooks?


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## jegreenwood

Christabel said:


> How would you assess his impact, if any, on Mel Brooks?


"Writing both music and lyrics for a Broadway show is not easy to do-I know, because I've done it. But Stephen Sondheim could do it all and made it look easy. He was an incredible gift to the Broadway stage. He will be sorely missed."

Tweet from Mel Brooks

Brooks worked with Larry Gelbart, one of the book writers of _Forum_ on the 50s TV program _Your Show of Shows_. Of course almost every good comedy writer of that time worked on _Your Show of Shows_.


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## Guest

jegreenwood said:


> "Writing both music and lyrics for a Broadway show is not easy to do-I know, because I've done it. But Stephen Sondheim could do it all and made it look easy. He was an incredible gift to the Broadway stage. He will be sorely missed."
> 
> Tweet from Mel Brooks
> 
> Brooks worked with Larry Gelbart, one of the book writers of _Forum_ on the 50s TV program _Your Show of Shows_. Of course almost every good comedy writer of that time worked on _Your Show of Shows_.


I've watched some of them on U-Tube and one was particularly hilarious; about 'the general', who was a doorman at a hotel. The ritual of dressing him was a spoof of the Germans and Sid Caesar was a genius!! Mel Brooks said he had a hand in writing this. Apparently the inspiration behind this was the German film "Der Letzte Mann", FW Murnau's splendid silent from1924. I'm sure you'll know that this was roughly translated as "The Last Laugh" for English-speaking audiences.


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## jegreenwood

Christabel said:


> I've watched some of them on U-Tube and one was particularly hilarious; about 'the general', who was a doorman at a hotel. The ritual of dressing him was a spoof of the Germans and Sid Caesar was a genius!! Mel Brooks said he had a hand in writing this. Apparently the inspiration behind this was the German film "Der Letzte Mann", FW Murnau's splendid silent from1924. I'm sure you'll know that this was roughly translated as "The Last Laugh" for English-speaking audiences.


There's a charming movie called _My Favorite Year_ which is centered on a fictional version of _Your Show of Shows_. Brooks was an executive producer. And, perhaps not surprisingly, it was adapted as a musical - but not very successfully.


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## Guest

jegreenwood said:


> There's a charming movie called _My Favorite Year_ which is centered on a fictional version of _Your Show of Shows_. Brooks was an executive producer. And, perhaps not surprisingly, it was adapted as a musical - but not very successfully.


Years ago I saw a documentary about the evolution of comedy on American television (sorry this is off piste) and I can't remember much about it except that Sid Caesar and his colleagues (including, of course, Carl Reiner) were said to have be at the 'cutting edge' of satire. The program expressed regret that modern satire didn't have the wit and edge to it that Caesar, Reiner, Brooks et al used for their comedy. A modern comic was interviewed (name forgotten) but he made the observation that with the rapid uptake of mass produced television sets and their place in the American home that the 'collective IQ dropped alongside that" and the market for intelligent satire disappeared. I've never forgotten that program and that comment.

But, to some extent at least, that legacy has been and maintained through people like Billy Crystal and the late Nora Ephron. It's something about the Jews and their deprecating, neurotic humour!! Which I absolutely adore, by the way.

It would be an interesting thread to discuss and draw the links between, say, the Marx Brothers, Garson Kanin, Sid Caesar, the Ephrons through to Jack Benny, Woody Allen, Billy Crystal et al. Just everything about it could be expressed in one apposite scene from "Annie Hall"....


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## Rogerx

The new West Side story got raving reviews on this side of the pond . Might wanna see it soon.


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## Guest

Rogerx said:


> The new West Side story got raving reviews on this side of the pond . Might wanna see it soon.


A look back at vintage Sondheim. I've only seen the trailer and have noted that it's set in the 1950s and I wondered what was the point of remaking the original which was set in the same period?? Anyway, *some AMAZING cinema techniques on display* - just in the trailer.


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## SanAntone

Christabel said:


> A look back at vintage Sondheim. I've only seen the trailer and have noted that it's set in the 1950s and I wondered what was the point of remaking the original which was set in the same period??


New production team and cast from a different generation who want to take on this classic musical.


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## jegreenwood

The revival of _Company_, directed by Marianne Elliott and featuring a female Bobbie, opened last night. The NY Times review was negative, but two others I read were positive.

Elliott had done this in London. I believe it was well received there.


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## jegreenwood

SanAntone said:


> New production team and cast from a different generation who want to take on this classic musical.


And a revised script by Tony Kushner.


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## pianozach

jegreenwood said:


> There's a charming movie called _My Favorite Year_ which is centered on a fictional version of _Your Show of Shows_. Brooks was an executive producer. And, perhaps not surprisingly, it was adapted as a musical - but not very successfully.


I played the part of King Kaiser in an amateur production of *My Favorite Year*.

Yeah, the music is a tad forgettable. But it's still a fun show in spite of that.


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## jegreenwood

Posts on this thread and the "Singing and Dancing" thread got me to thinking how fortunate Sondheim was to have Jonathan Tunick as his orchestrator throughout most of his career. From the energetic, score of _Company_, with its use of electric guitar and bass (pretty rare in those days*), to the lush score for _Follies_, to the dramatic score for _Sweeney Todd_.

For me, the importance of orchestration was never more clear than when I saw the Broadway revival of _A Little Night Music_. It's a show that certainly has the feel of Viennese operetta (although several people have pointed out that Ravel was a greater influence). Virtually the entire score is in 3/4 time or some variation thereof (e.g. 12/8 and 9/8 for "Send in the Clowns." Tunick's orchestration is for strings and winds - no brass and little if any percussion. The revival used a pared down orchestra with IIRC electronic instruments. It ruined the show for me (although there were other problems as well).

*Tunick had used electric instruments in his orchestration of Burt Bacharach's _Promises, Promises_.

Edit - Maybe I was being slightly unfair to the newer orchestrations. The productions started in the Menier Chocolate Factory, a small theatre in Southwark. It's highly unlikely they could fit the 20+ member original orchestra.

I listened to the first several songs from the revival on Tidal. Almost certainly the first time I've heard them since I saw the show live. On Broadway the score was dominated by strings, allowing for that swirling sound one associates with waltz music. The revival score, on the other hand, is dominated by winds. Now, I used to play the clarinet, so I love winds - but not here. The singing is also rather bland.


----------



## pianozach

jegreenwood said:


> Posts on this thread and the "Singing and Dancing" thread got me to thinking how fortunate Sondheim was to have Jonathan Tunick as his orchestrator throughout most of his career. From the energetic, score of _Company_, with its use of electric guitar and bass (pretty rare in those days*), to the lush score for _Follies_, to the dramatic score for _Sweeney Todd_.
> 
> For me, the importance of orchestration was never more clear than when I saw the Broadway revival of _A Little Night Music_. It's a show that certainly has the feel of Viennese operetta (although several people have pointed out that Ravel was a greater influence). Virtually the entire score is in 3/4 time or some variation thereof (e.g. 12/8 and 9/8 for "Send in the Clowns." Tunick's orchestration is for strings and winds - no brass and little if any percussion. The revival used a pared down orchestra with IIRC electronic instruments. It ruined the show for me (although there were other problems as well).
> 
> *Tunick had used electric instruments in his orchestration of Burt Bacharach's _Promises, Promises_.
> 
> Edit - Maybe I was being slightly unfair to the newer orchestrations. The productions started in the Menier Chocolate Factory, a small theatre in Southwark. It's highly unlikely they could fit the 20+ member original orchestra.
> 
> I listened to the first several songs from the revival on Tidal. Almost certainly the first time I've heard them since I saw the show live. On Broadway the score was dominated by strings, allowing for that swirling sound one associates with waltz music. The revival score, on the other hand, is dominated by winds. Now, I used to play the clarinet, so I love winds - but not here. The singing is also rather bland.


LOL. The "newer orchestrations".

Yes, the size of orchestras has been minimized, and I regularly see scores that include 2 or 3 keyboardists.

Most annoying thing I see now is that they will send software and data for a laptop to send a midi signal to (from your midi keyboard). This simply creates another technological component that can go glitchy at any given time.


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## SanAntone

This week I've been spending time with _*Follies*_










The 2011 New Broadway cast album is a fairly complete version of the _Follies_ score. The cast starred *Bernadette Peters* as Sally, *Jan Maxwell* as Phyllis, *Elaine Paige* as Carlotta, *Linda Lavin* as Hattie, *Ron Raines* as Ben and *Danny Burstein* as Buddy. It began at the Kennedy Center in Washington, D.C. and then transferred to Broadway with most of the cast intact.

The 2CD recording is among the best options available for this show.



> Brantley reviewed the Broadway revival for The New York Times, writing: "Somewhere along the road from Washington to Broadway, the Kennedy Center production of Follies picked up a pulse...I am happy to report that since then, Ms Peters has connected with her inner frump, Mr. Raines has found the brittle skeleton within his solid flesh, and Ms. Maxwell and Mr. Burstein have only improved. Two new additions to the cast, Jayne Houdyshell and Mary Beth Peil, are terrific. This production has taken on the glint of crystalline sharpness."


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## SanAntone

*SIDE BY SIDE BY SONDHEIM* (2021)
Lyrics by Stephen Sondheim
Music by Jule Styne, Leonard Bernstein, Mary Rodgers, Richard Rodgers, & Stephen Sondheim






Featuring the students of YAAStudio IV: Pre-BFA (2021)
Directed/Choreographed by Carole Graham Lehan
Music Direction & Piano by Christopher Youstra
Video Editing by Dave Eason, School Days Productions
Audio Mixing by Dimitri Fantini

A Young Artists of America™ production


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## SanAntone

_*Sunday in the Park with George*_










After the failure and scathing critical reception of Merrily We Roll Along in 1981 (it closed after 16 performances), Sondheim announced his intention to quit musical theatre.[citation needed] Lapine persuaded him to return to the theatrical world after the two were inspired by A Sunday Afternoon on the Island of La Grande Jatte. They spent several days at the Art Institute of Chicago studying the painting. Lapine noted that one major figure was missing from the canvas: the artist himself. This observation provided the springboard for Sunday and the production evolved into a meditation on art, emotional connection and community.

The musical fictionalizes Seurat's life. In fact, neither of his children survived beyond infancy, so he had no heirs. Seurat's common-law wife was Madeleine Knobloch, who gave birth to his two sons, one after his death. Unlike Dot, Knobloch was living with Seurat when he died, and did not emigrate to America. She died of cirrhosis of the liver at the age of 35.

The show opened Off-Broadway at Playwrights Horizons, starring *Mandy Patinkin* and *Bernadette Peters*, in July 1983 and ran for 25 performances. Only the first act was performed and even that was still in development. The first act was fleshed out and work began on the second during that time and the complete two-act show was premièred during the last three performances.

After seeing the show at Playwrights, composer Leonard Bernstein wrote to his friend Sondheim, calling the show "brilliant, deeply conceived, canny, magisterial and by far the most personal statement I've heard from you thus far. Bravo." Kelsey Grammer (Young Man on the Bank and Soldier), Mary Elizabeth Mastrantonio (Celeste #2) and Christine Baranski (Clarisse, who was later renamed Yvonne) were in the off-Broadway production but did not continue with the show to Broadway.

Act I
"Sunday in the Park with George" - George, Dot
"No Life" - Jules, Yvonne
"Color and Light" - Dot, George
"Gossip" - Celeste #1, Celeste #2, Boatman, Nurse, Old Lady, Jules, Yvonne
"The Day Off" - George, Company
"Everybody Loves Louis" - Dot
"The One on the Left" - Soldier, Celeste #1, Celeste #2, George
"Finishing the Hat" - George
"The Day Off" (Reprise) - Company†
"We Do Not Belong Together" - Dot, George
"Beautiful" - Old Lady, George
"Sunday" - Company

Act II
"It's Hot Up Here" - Company
"Chromolume #7" - Orchestra
"Putting It Together" (including the reprise of "Gossip") - Company
"Children and Art" - Marie
"Lesson #8" - George
"Move On" - George, Dot
"Sunday" (Reprise) - George, Dot, Company


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## jegreenwood

SanAntone said:


> This week I've been spending time with _*Follies*_
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The 2011 New Broadway cast album is a fairly complete version of the _Follies_ score. The cast starred *Bernadette Peters* as Sally, *Jan Maxwell* as Phyllis, *Elaine Paige* as Carlotta, *Linda Lavin* as Hattie, *Ron Raines* as Ben and *Danny Burstein* as Buddy. It began at the Kennedy Center in Washington, D.C. and then transferred to Broadway with most of the cast intact.
> 
> The 2CD recording is among the best options available for this show.


One of the best scores for any Broadway show. And it's huge. Depends how you count, but about 22 songs.

I saw that production twice in NYC. In addition I've seen the semi-staged Encores presentation at City Center, The National Theatre production on the big screen and the original Broadway production. I strongly recommend the National Theater production if it's available for viewing somewhere. It comes closer to solving the problems in the show than any other version I've seen. The original is long gone. At the time, it was the most expensive production in Broadway history.* And it looked it. The original cast album is heavily cut despite the record producer's appeal for a two disc set. I have that recording, the 2011 production and _Follies in Concert_ performed in Lincoln Center circa. 1984. That is good as well.

I've mentioned it before but Ted Chapin's _Everything Was Possible_ is a day be day description of the rehearsal of the original production. Chapin was a gofer, but he was also the son of Schuyler Chapin, General Manager of the Metropolitan Opera, and he later headed the Rodgers & Hammerstein Organization.

Here's the original poster.









*Except maybe for _Seesaw_, which ran up expenses as the first production design was basically tossed during rehearsals/tryouts.


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## SanAntone

jegreenwood said:


> One of the best scores for any Broadway show. And it's huge. Depends how you count, but about 22 songs.
> 
> I saw that production twice in NYC. In addition I've seen the semi-staged Encores presentation at City Center, The National Theatre production on the big screen and the original Broadway production. I strongly recommend the National Theater production if it's available for viewing somewhere. It comes closer to solving the problems in the show than any other version I've seen. The original is long gone. At the time, it was the most expensive production in Broadway history.* And it looked it. The original cast album is full of cuts despite the record producer's appeal for a two disc set. I have that recording, the 2011 production and _Follies in Concert_ performed in Lincoln Center circa. 1984. That is good as well.


The 2LP Lincoln Center concert version has been the one I usually listen to. But this one I posted is very good, and as a Bernadette Peter's fan, it is valuable for that reason. I also have access to the National Theater cast album, but not the video.

IIRC the reason why the original cast album was heavily edited down to one LP was due to budget considerations. The show was losing money and the producer just didn't want to put more money into it.


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## jegreenwood

SanAntone said:


> The 2LP Lincoln Center concert version has been the one I usually listen to. But this one I posted is very good, and as a Bernadette Peter's fan, it is valuable for that reason. I also have access to the National Theater cast album, but not the video.
> 
> IIRC the reason why the original cast album was heavily edited down to one LP was due to budget considerations. The show was losing money and the producer just didn't want to put more money into it.


According to Ted Chapin, Dick Jones, the record producer, had been trying to get a two LP version. (The full score doesn't even fit on a single CD.) However in the end Capitol said no. As the recording was made during in the week after opening night, it couldn't have been losses as they sales were pretty good at first. I suspect Capitol just didn't feel cast album sold sufficient copies in 1971. And to be fair, two disc original cast albums were extremely rare up to that time.

More importantly, a look at the National Theatre website suggests that the NT filming will return to NY (and I presume elsewhere in the U.S.) sometime soon.


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## SanAntone

jegreenwood said:


> According to Ted Chapin, Dick Jones, the record producer, had been trying to get a two LP version. (The full score doesn't even fit on a single CD.) However in the end Capitol said no. As the recording was made during in the week after opening night, it couldn't have been losses as they sales were pretty good at first. I suspect Capitol just didn't feel cast album sold sufficient copies in 1971. And to be fair, two disc original cast albums were extremely rare up to that time.
> 
> More importantly, a look at the National Theatre website suggests that the NT filming will return to NY (and I presume elsewhere in the U.S.) sometime soon.


I could easily be getting it mixed up with something else. I've been reading a lot of different Sondheim books and jumping around from show to show.


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## pianozach

Wow. The "best" Sondheim score/show?

I've been intimate with many of his shows, and are pretty familiar with most of the rest.

I'd rate the top scores thusly:

*Sweeney Todd
Into the Woods
Sunday In the Park with George
Pacific Overtures
Assassins
*

I'm not saying the rest are bad. They are excellent.


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## jegreenwood

pianozach said:


> Wow. The "best" Sondheim score/show?
> 
> I've been intimate with many of his shows, and are pretty familiar with most of the rest.
> 
> I'd rate the top scores thusly:
> 
> *Sweeney Todd
> Into the Woods
> Sunday In the Park with George
> Pacific Overtures
> Assassins
> *
> 
> I'm not saying the rest are bad. They are excellent.


The two I listen to most are _Sweeney Todd_ and _Follies_. I like a lot of the score for _Sunday in the Park_, and some of _Into the Woods_, although I never warmed to the show as a whole. I need to reserve judgment on _Passion_ and _Assassins_, as I don't know them very well. I will be seeing _Assassins_ for the first time this coming Sunday (Covid permitting). Unfortunately, the production was not well-reviewed.

I do like the other Sondheim/Prince shows including _Merrily_.

And I think _Gypsy_ is brilliant.


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## SanAntone

jegreenwood said:


> The two I listen to most are _Sweeney Todd_ and _Follies_. I like a lot of the score for _Sunday in the Park_, and some of _Into the Woods_, although I never warmed to the show as a whole. I need to reserve judgment on _Passion_ and _Assassins_, as I don't know them very well. I will be seeing _Assassins_ for the first time this coming Sunday (Covid permitting). Unfortunately, the production was not well-reviewed.
> 
> I do like the other Sondheim/Prince shows including _Merrily_.
> 
> And I think _Gypsy_ is brilliant.


Of course he didn't write the music for _Gypsy_ ....  

_Passion_ is my favorite Sondheim show. _Assassins_ has more of a revue feeling, an almost singer-songwriter style. It is different from his other scores, IMO.

But my feeling is that Sondheim has tended to be underrated concerning his music with most of the "wow factor" being reserved for his lyrics.


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## John Zito

Jackpot:


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## SanAntone

*A Little Night Music* is a musical with music and lyrics by *Stephen Sondheim* and book by *Hugh Wheeler*. Inspired by the 1955 Ingmar Bergman film _Smiles of a Summer Night_, it involves the romantic lives of several couples. Its title is a literal English translation of the German name for Mozart's Serenade No. 13, K. 525, _Eine kleine Nachtmusik_. The musical includes the popular song "Send In the Clowns".










The elegant, harmonically-advanced music in this musical pays indirect homage to the compositions of *Maurice Ravel*, especially his _Valses nobles et sentimentales_[ (whose opening chord is borrowed for the opening chord of the song "Liaisons"); part of this effect stems from the style of orchestration that Jonathan Tunick used. There is also a direct quotation in 'A Weekend in the Country' (just as it moves to A♭ major) of Octavian's theme from Strauss' _Der Rosenkavalier_, another comedy of manners with partner-swapping at its heart.


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## SanAntone

John Zito said:


> Jackpot:


I had also posted this in one of the other threads devoted to Sondheim. It is a valuable resource, but if you have the book it is redundant.


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## John Zito

SanAntone said:


> I had also posted this in one of the other threads devoted to Sondheim. It is a valuable resource, but if you have the book it is redundant.


Oop, sorry. I didn't realize.


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## SanAntone

John Zito said:


> Oop, sorry. I didn't realize.


Oh. not problem, especially since I had posted it somewhere else, it is good to have it here.

After _A Little Night Music_ I put on _Into the Woods_. This is a very good score. Here's some background from Wikipedia:



> The score is also notable in Sondheim's output, because of its intricate reworking and development of small musical motifs. In particular, the opening words, "I wish", are set to the interval of a rising major second and this small unit is both repeated and developed throughout the show, just as Lapine's book explores the consequences of self-interest and "wishing". The dialogue in the show is characterized by the heavy use of syncopated speech. In many instances, the characters' lines are delivered with a fixed beat that follows natural speech rhythms, but is also purposely composed in eighth, sixteenth, and quarter note rhythms as part of a spoken song. Like many Sondheim/Lapine productions, the songs contain thought-process narrative, where characters converse or think aloud.


I can't help feeling that Sondheim's composing has been undervalued. He really invests a lot of thought and craft into the score, that often gets overlooked with most of the attention given to his lyrics.


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## Bwv 1080

Lost Pat last year as well


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## jegreenwood

SanAntone said:


> *A Little Night Music* is a musical with music and lyrics by *Stephen Sondheim* and book by *Hugh Wheeler*. Inspired by the 1955 Ingmar Bergman film _Smiles of a Summer Night_, it involves the romantic lives of several couples. Its title is a literal English translation of the German name for Mozart's Serenade No. 13, K. 525, _Eine kleine Nachtmusik_. The musical includes the popular song "Send In the Clowns".
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The elegant, harmonically-advanced music in this musical pays indirect homage to the compositions of *Maurice Ravel*, especially his _Valses nobles et sentimentales_[ (whose opening chord is borrowed for the opening chord of the song "Liaisons"); part of this effect stems from the style of orchestration that Jonathan Tunick used. There is also a direct quotation in 'A Weekend in the Country' (just as it moves to A♭ major) of Octavian's theme from Strauss' _Der Rosenkavalier_, another comedy of manners with partner-swapping at its heart.


Sondheim mentions Rachmaninov as an influence.


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## jegreenwood

I finally saw _Assassins_ yesterday afternoon. It was not under the best of circumstances. I had hurt my knee the day before, and while I wasn't in pain while sitting still, I was not in the best of moods. I was wearing an N95 mask, which I find uncomfortable, and every so often, my glasses would steam up slightly. As for the production, they had cancelled the performance the previous night and were two actors short for the performance I attended. I don't know the show, so I don't know how much juggling they had to do. All the assassins were accounted for (maybe some understudies), but at least one actor was reading from the script from time to time offstage.

Bearing all that in mind, I can't say the show impressed me. (This production didn't impress the critics either.) It seemed flat, didn't seem to fulfill the promise of the concept.

_Assassins_ is a favorite of several people in this thread. I'd be interested in hearing what they liked about it.


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## SanAntone

jegreenwood said:


> I finally saw _Assassins_ yesterday afternoon. It was not under the best of circumstances. I had hurt my knee the day before, and while I wasn't in pain while sitting still, I was not in the best of moods. I was wearing an N95 mask, which I find uncomfortable, and every so often, my glasses would steam up slightly. As for the production, they had cancelled the performance the previous night and were two actors short for the performance I attended. I don't know the show, so I don't know how much juggling they had to do. All the assassins were accounted for (maybe some understudies), but at least one actor was reading from the script from time to time offstage.
> 
> Bearing all that in mind, I can't say the show impressed me. (This production didn't impress the critics either.) It seemed flat, didn't seem to fulfill the promise of the concept.
> 
> _Assassins_ is a favorite of several people in this thread. I'd be interested in hearing what they liked about it.


I do like it, and count it among my favorites of Sondheim shows, although there isn't one I don't like. I've never seen it either on stage or as a video, so my response has been to the book and song, and I consider the writing was at a high level. One comment about the reviews, while the Off-Broadway production received mixed/negative reviews, when it moved to Broadway in 2004 it was praised and won a number of Tony awards.

Things I like:

The setting of the show, in a carnival context, and especially in the opening number the black humor tone.

I also like how Sondheim attempted to incorporate period style in his score -

And finally, the theme itself, American history and culture (one I am particularly interested in, vis a vis, musical treatment) was brought off well by Sondheim and Weidman, which in other hands could have either become heavy-handed or pastiche.


----------



## pianozach

jegreenwood said:


> I finally saw _Assassins_ yesterday afternoon. It was not under the best of circumstances. I had hurt my knee the day before, and while I wasn't in pain while sitting still, I was not in the best of moods. I was wearing an N95 mask, which I find uncomfortable, and every so often, my glasses would steam up slightly. As for the production, they had cancelled the performance the previous night and were two actors short for the performance I attended. I don't know the show, so I don't know how much juggling they had to do. All the assassins were accounted for (maybe some understudies), but at least one actor was reading from the script from time to time offstage.
> 
> Bearing all that in mind, I can't say the show impressed me. (This production didn't impress the critics either.) It seemed flat, didn't seem to fulfill the promise of the concept.
> 
> _Assassins_ is a favorite of several people in this thread. I'd be interested in hearing what they liked about it.


I directed a production of ASSASSINS many years ago, and evidently since then the song order has been slightly shuffled.

My production was blessed by having actors which were all excellent, and my direction was nuanced. I've seen a production since then where everyone was playing for laughs, over-animated and cartoony. For some reason THAT director decided it would be a great idea for the [female] narrator to start the show by singing THE STAR-SPANGLED BANNER a cappella, and found several different keys along the way, including some 48ET ones. The band did not reach even the "adequate" bar.

The show is difficult to mount, and walks a very fine line between getting the audience to sympathize with assassins and being repulsed by them. A Presidential assassin could very well be your next-door neighbor, and the show does try to shed light on the disenfranchised among us. A Presidential assassin could be you. Or me.

Once the show has you empathizing with (or at the least, understanding) these people, it then yanks the rug out from underneath you, showing how easy it is to be manipulated into having sympathy with someone that would resort to murder. This theme has some actual ripples today. A bunch of patriotic people at a political rally last January decided it would be justified to hang the Vice President, kidnap the Speaker of the House, and storm the capitol. It's likely that, at the time, every single one of them felt their actions were appropriate. As they are arrested one by one, most find that they are now experiencing regret for their actions, and seemingly baffled at how they were duped and conned.

ASSASSINS also has a disguised format that is similar to CHICAGO and CABARET (the stage version); the songs are presented like Vaudeville numbers that metaphors for the real-life action.

Sondheim used manipulation as a theme in PASSION as well. And he'd used them before, as he did in INTO THE WOODS, where a baker and his wife resort to unethical methods to acquire "ingredients" to help a witch make a potion in exchange for removing a curse that has left them childless.


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## jegreenwood

SanAntone said:


> I do like it, and count it among my favorites of Sondheim shows, although there isn't one I don't like. I've never seen it either on stage or as a video, so my response has been to the book and song, and I consider the writing was at a high level. One comment about the reviews, while the Off-Broadway production received mixed/negative reviews, when it moved to Broadway in 2004 it was praised and won a number of Tony awards.
> 
> Things I like:
> 
> The setting of the show, in a carnival context, and especially in the opening number the black humor tone.
> 
> I also like how Sondheim attempted to incorporate period style in his score -
> 
> And finally, the theme itself, American history and culture (one I am particularly interested in, vis a vis, musical treatment) was brought off well by Sondheim and Weidman, which in other hands could have either become heavy-handed or pastiche.


I wish I had seen that production. This one was directed by John Doyle, who had brought productions of _Sweeney Todd_ and _Company_ from off-Broadway to Broadway. The reviewers generally agreed that he missed the boat the first time. The set was almost bare - very little sense of a carnival.


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## SanAntone

In my recent reading about _Assassins_, something I'd never thought about came out: during the first production's preview/workshop period the Gulf War broke out. The social/political environment for a show about Presidential assassinations turned sour verging on hostile: posters for the show with quotes like, "so you want to kill a President?" as a Presidential motorcade passes is not a good optic. This was one reason why the reviews were mixed, many among the audience as well as critical community could not tell if Sondheim and Weidman were being ironic or sympathetic to the assassins. Also, the small theater and scant stage sets were another contributing factor.

Both issues were mitigated by the passage of time and the move to Broadway.


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## SanAntone

*Sondheim Unplugged - The NYC Sessions Volume 1* [Two CD Set]












> The smash New York revue is captured here with electrifying performances from some of Broadway's most impressive vocalists (who, collectively, boast over 100 Broadway credits to their names, some of whom originated roles in Sondheim musicals). Sondheim Unplugged, The NYC Sessions features many of the best-loved tunes from the master composer's oeuvre (Send in the Clowns, Broadway Baby), as well as lesser-heard, sparkling treasures from shows like The Frogs and Road Show. Freshly studio-recorded in 2020-21, this newest addition to the great collection of Sondheim recordings is one not to miss.


Volumes 2 and 3 to follow.


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## SanAntone

*Liaisons: Re-Imagining Sondheim From The Piano *( (2015)










This is a really fantastic collection of arrangements of Sondheim music for piano by a variety of accomplished composers and musicians: *William Bolcom*, *Nico Muhly*, *Steve Reich*, *Wynton Marsalis*, and others.


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## SanAntone

*Passion*
2013 New York Cast










"Close enough to singe your soul" is how The New York Times described the new production of PASSION, composer-lyricist Stephen Sondheim and bookwriter James Lapine's 1994 Tony Award-winning Best Musical. The Daily News hailed it as "a feast for the eyes and ears," while The Wall Street Journal predicted, "It will be a long time before we see another staging that speaks so eloquently to the mysteries of the human heart. It will move you to the marrow." Directed by the innovative John Doyle, who has been celebrated for his revelatory reinterpretations of Sondheim's Sweeney Todd and Company, the Classic Stage Company production of PASSION, the first fully-staged New York revival of a work that has grown in both critical and popular esteem to become what many consider to be Sondheim's deepest and most powerful evening of musical theatre, stars Judy Kuhn as Fosca ("impeccable and compelling" - Associated Press) and Ryan Silverman as Giorgio ("a performance of risk-taking, unconditional emotional commitment" - The New York Times), performing under the baton of Rob Berman to new orchestrations by longtime Sondheim collaborator Jonathan Tunick. The New York Daily News proclaimed "Musical theater scores don't come more glorious!" Now PS Classics, home to a dozen Sondheim discs, is proud to preserve this new PASSION in an expansive two-disc set.


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## jegreenwood

SanAntone said:


> *Passion*
> 2013 New York Cast
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> "Close enough to singe your soul" is how The New York Times described the new production of PASSION, composer-lyricist Stephen Sondheim and bookwriter James Lapine's 1994 Tony Award-winning Best Musical. The Daily News hailed it as "a feast for the eyes and ears," while The Wall Street Journal predicted, "It will be a long time before we see another staging that speaks so eloquently to the mysteries of the human heart. It will move you to the marrow." Directed by the innovative John Doyle, who has been celebrated for his revelatory reinterpretations of Sondheim's Sweeney Todd and Company, the Classic Stage Company production of PASSION, the first fully-staged New York revival of a work that has grown in both critical and popular esteem to become what many consider to be Sondheim's deepest and most powerful evening of musical theatre, stars Judy Kuhn as Fosca ("impeccable and compelling" - Associated Press) and Ryan Silverman as Giorgio ("a performance of risk-taking, unconditional emotional commitment" - The New York Times), performing under the baton of Rob Berman to new orchestrations by longtime Sondheim collaborator Jonathan Tunick. The New York Daily News proclaimed "Musical theater scores don't come more glorious!" Now PS Classics, home to a dozen Sondheim discs, is proud to preserve this new PASSION in an expansive two-disc set.


I forgot Doyle did that one too. That one also got great reviews.


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## jegreenwood

To get back into the Sondheim/Weidman spirit I listen to _Pacific Overtures_ yesterday. What a great score. I've seen the show twice - on Broadway while it was in previews and an off-Broadway revival in the 80s. Haven't seen it since, although it made it to Broadway once more (IIRC).


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## SanAntone

jegreenwood said:


> To get back into the Sondheim/Weidman spirit I listen to _Pacific Overtures_ yesterday. What a great score. I've seen the show twice - on Broadway while it was in previews and an off-Broadway revival in the 80s. Haven't seen it since, although it made it to Broadway once more (IIRC).


_Pacific Overtures_ is my favorite among the "2nd tier" shows. There are a couple of videos on YouTube with Sondheim, Weidman, and cast members discussing "Someone in a Tree" with a very young Frank Rich.


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## SanAntone

Today I listened to an archived web-radio show on *Classical Gabfest* focusing on the music of Stephen Sondheim. Three musicologists weighed in guided by the host, who was huge fan.

One of the musicologists had written a book on "how Sondheim found his sound" and mentioned that Sondheim was an avid record collector, owning more than 11.000 discs. The point of the story was that in his catalog were four recordings of the Ravel string quartet and eight recordings of the Ravel trio. This musicologist made the connection of which composers were Sondheim's main influences by the music he had collected, i.e. deducing that Ravel was a major influence.

Of course Sondheim often mentioned Ravel, along with other composers.


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## John Zito

SanAntone said:


> Today I listened to an archived web-radio show on *Classical Gabfest* focusing on the music of Stephen Sondheim. Three musicologists weighed in guided by the host, who was huge fan.
> 
> One of the musicologists had written a book on "how Sondheim found his sound" and mentioned that Sondheim was an avid record collector, owning more than 11.000 discs. The point of the story was that in his catalog were four recordings of the Ravel string quartet and eight recordings of the Ravel trio. This musicologist made the connection of which composers were Sondheim's main influences by the music he had collected, i.e. deducing that Ravel was a major influence.
> 
> Of course Sondheim often mentioned Ravel, along with other composers.


Thanks. That was great. Sondheim spoke often of Ravel's instrumental music, but I always wondered what his opinion was of Ravel's vocal writing. I guess we'll never know...


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## SanAntone

Speaking of _Assassins_ -


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## SanAntone

I'm looking at Sondheim's collaborators, wondering if the shows written a specific partner shared any theme.

The theme that jumps out immediately is that the shows with *Jonathan Weidman* are overtly political, or maybe commentary on American culture/history: _Pacific Overtures_, _Assassins_, _Road Show_. I get the feeling Weidman is something like a professor/writer.

The *Arthur Laurents* shows were more traditional musical comedy, nothing heavy, but also mostly shows where Sondheim wrote lyrics only, except for _Anyone Can Whistle_, _West Side Story_, _Gypsy_, _Do I Hear a Waltz_.

Both of the shows with *Burt Shevelove* were inspired by classical sources, _Forum_ and _Frogs_.

Maybe the most interesting collaborator was *James Lapine*: _Sunday in the Park with George_, _Into the Woods_, _Passion_. These shows are all based on other artworks, a painting, fairy tales and a movie/novel, and seem more "writerly".

*Hugh Wheeler* wrote two of Sondheim's most popular shows, _A Little Night Music_ and _Sweeney Todd_ and both come closest to operetta/opera than his other shows, with the exception of _Passion_ which also occupies that same territory.

*George Furth* worked with Sondheim, on _Company_, which was based on several one act plays of his and _Merrily We Roll Along_. One was a hit the other a miss. Both have unique story telling conventions: _Company_ has five groups of three, a couple + Bobby, and _Merrily_ is told in reverse chronological order. _Company_ works great, whereas _Merrily_ has always been a troubling show to stage. But it was a Kaufman/Hart play done the same way, which apparently was fine. The music for Merrily contains some really good songs, so I've always felt it a shame this show failed to gain traction with the audience.

*James Goldman* wrote _Evening Primrose_ and _Follies_ with Sondheim, one a television show that has had limited exposure, but _Follies_ is among Sondheim's best shows. Both seem somewhat dreamlike, setting up situations for nostalgia or wistfulness: _Primrose_ takes place in a department store with a group of characters wondering what life is like in the outside world, and _Follies_ has older characters looking back on the "best years of their life" wondering "what if."


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## jegreenwood

SanAntone said:


> I'm looking at Sondheim's collaborators, wondering if the shows written a specific partner shared any theme.
> 
> The theme that jumps out immediately is that the shows with *Jonathan Weidman* are overtly political, or maybe commentary on American culture/history: _Pacific Overtures_, _Assassins_, _Road Show_. I get the feeling Weidman is something like a professor/writer.
> 
> The *Arthur Laurents* shows were more traditional musical comedy, nothing heavy, but also mostly shows where Sondheim wrote lyrics only, except for _Anyone Can Whistle_, _West Side Story_, _Gypsy_, _Do I Hear a Waltz_.
> 
> Both of the shows with *Burt Shevelove* were inspired by classical sources, _Forum_ and _Frogs_.
> 
> Maybe the most interesting collaborator was *James Lapine*: _Sunday in the Park with George_, _Into the Woods_, _Passion_. These shows are all based on other artworks, a painting, fairy tales and a movie/novel, and seem more "writerly".
> 
> *Hugh Wheeler* wrote two of Sondheim's most popular shows, _A Little Night Music_ and _Sweeney Todd_ and both come closest to operetta/opera than his other shows, with the exception of _Passion_ which also occupies that same territory.
> 
> *George Furth* worked with Sondheim, on _Company_, which was based on several one act plays of his and _Merrily We Roll Along_. One was a hit the other a miss. Both have unique story telling conventions: _Company_ has five groups of three, a couple + Bobby, and _Merrily_ is told in reverse chronological order. _Company_ works great, whereas _Merrily_ has always been a troubling show to stage. But it was a Kaufman/Hart play done the same way, which apparently was fine. The music for Merrily contains some really good songs, so I've always felt it a shame this show failed to gain traction with the audience.
> 
> *James Goldman* wrote _Evening Primrose_ and _Follies_ with Sondheim, one a television show that has had limited exposure, but _Follies_ is among Sondheim's best shows. Both seem somewhat dreamlike, setting up situations for nostalgia or wistfulness: _Primrose_ takes place in a department store with a group of characters wondering what life is like in the outside world, and _Follies_ has older characters looking back on the "best years of their life" wondering "what if."


A few additional comments. Bert Shevelove's co-author on _Forum_ was Larry Gelbart, best known for turning the film _M*A*S*H_ into one of the biggest TV series of all time. Gelbart's film work included co-writing _Tootsie_ and co-writing _The Wrong Box_ with Shevelove.

Hugh Wheeler rewrote the book for _Candide_ when they replaced Lillian Hellman's original version. Prince directed and I believe Sondheim contributed a lyric or two. It was a fun production with actors scrambling all over the theatre. https://www.livedesignonline.com/projects/candide-1974 Under several pseudonyms, Wheeler was a successful mystery writer.


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## SanAntone

jegreenwood said:


> A few additional comments. Bert Shevelove's co-author on _Forum_ was Larry Gelbart, best known for turning the film _M*A*S*H_ into one of the biggest TV series of all time. Gelbart's film work included co-writing _Tootsie_ and co-writing _The Wrong Box_ with Shevelove.
> 
> Hugh Wheeler rewrote the book for _Candide_ when they replaced Lillian Hellman's original version. Prince directed and I believe Sondheim contributed a lyric or two. It was a fun production with actors scrambling all over the theatre. https://www.livedesignonline.com/projects/candide-1974 Under several pseudonyms, Wheeler was a successful mystery writer.


Yeah I should have included Gelbart's name.


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## SanAntone

Here's a couple of quotes from a new book I've just started reading which offer some insight into how Sondheim approaches his composing.

"I've discovered over a period of years that essentially I'm a playwright who writes with song, and that playwrights are actors. And what I do is I act. So what I'll do [later today] is: I'll go upstairs, and I'll get back into the character of Wilson Mizner, and I'll start singing to myself. It'll take me a while to make that transition, because it's been a couple of days since I've been Wilson, but I'll get upstairs, and I'll be Wilson." (this quote refers to his last show, _Road Show_)

"When Donna Murphy auditioned for us, we gave her [" Fosca's Entrance"]. Her audition performance could have gone on stage that night. She's intelligent. There's something in her that identified with the character right away, and I write careful scenes. I say this with no modesty at all: When I'm writing dramatic stuff, I'm a playwright. This is a worked-out scene, and I can instruct the actress how to play this scene, and the music is part of the dialogue. I can tell her why the music gets quick here, why it gets slow here, why there's a ritard there, why there's a so-called key change here, why it suddenly goes up and down-all of that-because I have reasons. Now the actress may choose to ignore them, but Donna, who was just auditioning, did not have a chance to ask me, but she understood it. And this piece is psychologically very well laid out, and all it takes is a good actress to understand it exactly. It's one of the reasons why actors like to sing my stuff, because I'm essentially a playwright in song, and I'm not asking them to sing songs, I'm asking them to play scenes. It doesn't matter whether they're in 32 bars or 33 bars or 109 bars or six minutes. One of the reasons it convinces you is because psychologically it's true."

- _How Sondheim Found His Sound_ by Steve Swayne

I can easily relate to this, or I should say any songwriter who writes story songs, since often the song is in a character's voice. Think of Randy Newman, who has done this so successfully that he has been criticized for being a "racist" (Good Ol' Boys) or "discriminatory towards the disabled" (Small People).

But the idea of being a playwright staging the song is a further dimension of this concept and only occurs for theater music. How granular he gets, with rubato, key changes, harmonic and melodic details, in order to further develop the characterization is something that might be unique to Sondheim (regarding Broadway composers), or at least maybe he puts more thought and effort into this kind of thing.

I remember reading where I think in one of his early shows, Jerome Robbins asked him about what the singer was doing during one of his songs, and Sondheim had to think about it and from then on created all the action, which also helped him write the song.


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## SanAntone

Sondheim included a section of one of his "Hat" books "Fifty Songs I Wish I Had Written", which generally has songs off the beaten track. I believe only one Gershwin song appears there, "My Man's Gone Now," but he has said elsewhere that _Porgy and Bess_ is far and away his favorite opera and a work he is jealous of.

"Michael John LaChiusa, quoted William Bolcom: "It doesn't matter what a work calls itself, just as long as it's good music theater." So it is with _Porgy and Bess_ and, in LaChiusa's words, "the always-inventive works of Sondheim and his collaborators." Sondheim, more than any other composer in America, is Gershwin's rightful theatrical heir. Thus one may reasonably expect that he will be ranked with Gershwin (and Ives and Copland) as one of America's musical titans. Indeed, with Terry Teachout's article "Sondheim's Operas," the canonization is well under way."

- _How Sondheim Found His Sound_ by Steve Swayne


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## jegreenwood

SanAntone said:


> Sondheim included a section of one of his "Hat" books "Fifty Songs I Wish I Had Written", which generally has songs off the beaten track. I believe only one Gershwin song appears there, "My Man's Gone Now," but he has said elsewhere that _Porgy and Bess_ is far and away his favorite opera and a work he is jealous of.
> 
> "Michael John LaChiusa, quoted William Bolcom: "It doesn't matter what a work calls itself, just as long as it's good music theater." So it is with _Porgy and Bess_ and, in LaChiusa's words, "the always-inventive works of Sondheim and his collaborators." Sondheim, more than any other composer in America, is Gershwin's rightful theatrical heir. Thus one may reasonably expect that he will be ranked with Gershwin (and Ives and Copland) as one of America's musical titans. Indeed, with *Terry Teachout's* article "Sondheim's Operas," the canonization is well under way."
> 
> - _How Sondheim Found His Sound_ by Steve Swayne


Sorry to say, Terry Teachout passed away yesterday.


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## SanAntone

jegreenwood said:


> Sorry to say, Terry Teachout passed away yesterday.


Sad news, indeed.

Here's the Teachout *article*, for anyone who's interested.


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## jegreenwood

SanAntone said:


> Sondheim included a section of one of his "Hat" books "Fifty Songs I Wish I Had Written", which generally has songs off the beaten track. I believe only one Gershwin song appears there, "My Man's Gone Now," but he has said elsewhere that _Porgy and Bess_ is far and away his favorite opera and a work he is jealous of.
> 
> "Michael John LaChiusa, quoted William Bolcom: "It doesn't matter what a work calls itself, just as long as it's good music theater." So it is with _Porgy and Bess_ and, in LaChiusa's words, "the always-inventive works of Sondheim and his collaborators." Sondheim, more than any other composer in America, is Gershwin's rightful theatrical heir. Thus one may reasonably expect that he will be ranked with Gershwin (and Ives and Copland) as one of America's musical titans. Indeed, with Terry Teachout's article "Sondheim's Operas," the canonization is well under way."
> 
> - _How Sondheim Found His Sound_ by Steve Swayne


Here's a link to the list:

https://heartandmusic.wordpress.com/2006/11/08/sondheims-list-songs-i-wish-id-written/


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## jegreenwood

The current issue of “The Dramatist” is devoted to Sondheim. Someone once asked him who his heroes were. He listed Shakespeare, Arlen, George Gershwin, Kern, DuBose Hayward, and Ravel.


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