# Who wrote the greatest cycle of piano sonata's after Beethoven's famous cycle of 32?



## Second Trombone

The question of who wrote the best cycle of piano sonatas after Beethoven's occurred to me recently, and I found that answering this question is not easy. I suggest that, to be considered, a composer must have produced a minimum of 5 piano sonatas. Otherwise, it can't really be considered a cycle. (Of course, this rules out Brahms, Chopin, Schumann, Liszt, etc). And the sonatas should have been written originally for the piano (which rules out Scarlatti). Once I applied these not-terribly-stringent criteria to the history of piano music, I was surprised at how few contenders remained for the title of "2nd greatest cycle of piano sonatas after Beethoven."

Here are the contenders I can identify, listed in chronological order:
*Haydn*: 52 piano sonatas according to Hoboken, or 62 per Landon. Only about 20+ of these require the dynamic range of the piano, though all are playable on one.
*Mozart*: 18 piano sonatas
*Hummel*: 6 piano sonatas
*Schubert*: 21 piano sonatas (or so, some of them incomplete)
*Scriabin*: 10 piano sonatas
*Prokofiev*: 10 piano sonatas

Am I missing anybody? The fact that I included Hummel w/his 6 sonatas shows my strenuous effort to expand the list. Anyway, why so few contenders? Two composers, Haydn & Mozart, predate and influenced Beethoven-though perhaps each was at his greatest in other forms. Schubert was Beethoven's younger contemporary, and Ludwig's magical 32 hadn't yet started haunting piano composers. Apparently, Schubert didn't feel the anxiety of influence and only an all-to-early death seems to have prevented him from rivaling Beethoven's number. But since Beethoven's and Schubert's deaths in 1827-28, most great piano composers have seemed content to write no more than one, two or three sonatas--thus avoiding direct contention with and comparison to Beethoven. And, of course, the temptations of freer forms in the keyboard realm has also been powerful, as pioneered by Chopin, Schumann, Liszt and others. Finally it was two Russian composers, Scriabin and Prokofiev, who endeavored to compose substantial cycles of 10 piano sonatas each.

After some consideration on the subject, Schubert's cycle has emerged as my own choice for #2 among the sonata cycles. It's a substantial cycle, the last three sonatas are THAT great, and all of Schubert's sonatas after 1822--i.e., after age 25-- are really terrific. This isn't to disparage the other contenders--all excellent sonata composers. Anyway, I hope you find this is an interesting question, and I would be glad to hear your views about your favorite non-Beethovenian sonata cycles. Of course, if you want to talk Chopin, Brahms, Schumann or Liszt sonatas, that's fine too.


----------



## HenryPenfold

Scriabin

Apparently this message (Scriabin) is too short.


----------



## Kreisler jr

Second Trombone said:


> Schubert was Beethoven's younger contemporary, and Ludwig's magical 32 hadn't yet started haunting piano composers. Apparently, Schubert didn't feel the anxiety of influence and only an all-to-early death seems to have prevented him from rivaling Beethoven's number. But since Beethoven's and Schubert's deaths in 1827-28, most great piano composers have seemed content to write no more than one, two or three sonatas--thus avoiding direct contention with and comparison to Beethoven. And, of course, the temptations of freer forms in the keyboard realm has also been powerful, as pioneered by Chopin, Schumann, Liszt and others. Finally it was two Russian composers, Scriabin and Prokofiev, who endeavored to compose substantial cycles of 10 piano sonatas each.


I think the genre was mostly exhausted after Beethoven (and Schubert, but hardly anyone cared about Schubert's sonatas until the mid-20th century, his famous piano piece in the 19th century was the Wanderer fantasy). Thus only a few sonatas even by otherwise important composers for the instrument. With Scriabin and Prokofiev we have a "revival" but it's very local and most composers in the 20th century wrote only "token" piano sonatas, if any.
That Brahms didn't write any piano sonatas after three very early works whereas he kept writing sonatas in all other genres is for me a very clear indication of this exhaustion. If the composer most obviously taking upon himself the continuation of the heritage of Beethoven, Schubert, Schumann doesn't think there is much interesting music left for the piano sonata...?



> After some consideration on the subject, Schubert's cycle has emerged as my own choice for #2 among the sonata cycles. It's a substantial cycle, the last three sonatas are THAT great, and all of Schubert's sonatas after 1822--i.e., after age 25-- are really terrific. This isn't to disparage the other contenders--all excellent sonata composers. Anyway, I hope you find this is an interesting question, and I would be glad to hear your views about your favorite non-Beethovenian sonata cycles. Of course, if you want to talk Chopin, Brahms, Schumann or Liszt sonatas, that's fine too.


If I go by # of favorite works, I'd probably also name Schubert or Haydn as next after Beethoven (because I am not the greatest fan of Scriabin or Prokofiev's sonatas). However, Schubert's scope is fairly narrow because after many fragments he settled on a "type" of large scale sonata with not much variety. And they were far more a "dead end" than Beethoven's being basically ignored for a century.
And while Haydn has a lot of variety (some of which mostly vanished after Beethoven), many of them are hardly major works and despite many very good sonatas I don't think he ever explored the genre as systematically as he did with string quartets or even piano trios. And I feel the same about Mozart; I like some of his sonatas but none is a huge favorite and the genre didn't seem not that important for him.


----------



## joen_cph

Scriabin, followed by Prokofiev. Feinberg (12) comes ahead of Medtner (14) in my book, but Feinberg is to some extent a Neo-Scriabinist, where Medtner is more lyrical and, perhaps, neo-Schumann or the like.

I'd define cycles as 4 or more. Bax (4), Lubos Fiser (8) and N.V.Bentzon (about 22; only excerpts recorded) are also among the interesting ones. Maybe Weinberg (6) too, I don't know them. Tippett's (4) are good, but not quite up there. I probably forgot some; there's another English composer, John White, with close to 200 sonatas, of varying length, only a few recorded, for example.


----------



## Prodromides

Chávez
Miaskovsky
Tansman


----------



## maestro267

Haydn and Mozart died waaay before Beethoven finished his cycle, so they're definitely out of the equation.


----------



## RobertJTh

Rheinberger's 4 sonatas are great.


----------



## joen_cph

Prokofiev's 10th is a short fragment, unfinished.
Scriabin has two extra, unnumbered early sonatas too.


----------



## Rogerx

Haydn, Mozart and Schubert, in no particular order.


----------



## joen_cph

maestro267 said:


> Haydn and Mozart died waaay before Beethoven finished his cycle, so they're definitely out of the equation.


It's probably based on a ranking principle, rather than chronologically.

In that case, I think Schubert and Haydn would also be among the most important, of course.


----------



## EdwardBast

Schubert's overlap with Beethoven's, so he's not really in the running IMO.

Prokofiev's nine by far.


----------



## joen_cph

EdwardBast said:


> Schubert's overlap with Beethoven's, so he's not really in the running IMO.
> 
> Prokofiev's nine by far.


Mabe the OP should specify, if it's chronoligical, or ranking, we're dealing with. Obviously, the OP is aware of composer lifespans.


----------



## mikeh375

Well as music didn't stop after the early 20thC perhaps Alun Hoddinott's 13 excellent piano sonatas can be considered too.


----------



## Art Rock

maestro267 said:


> Haydn and Mozart died waaay before Beethoven finished his cycle, so they're definitely out of the equation.


The OP already clarifies that we're talking about ranking, not chronologically:



Second Trombone said:


> And the sonatas should have been written originally for the piano (which rules out Scarlatti).


as otherwise Scarlatti would have been ruled out for chronological reasons.


----------



## SanAntone

*Mieczyslaw Weinberg* wrote 6 excellent piano sonatas as well as two piano sonatinas.
*Nikolai Myaskovsky* wrote 9 piano sonatas, also very competitive works.
*Karol Szymanowski* wrote a lot of solo piano music, but only 3 sonatas - but they are really good, as are all of his solo piano works.
*Wilhelm Stenhammar *wrote 4 piano sonatas.
And finally, *Charles Wuorinen *wrote 4 fantastic piano sonatas.


----------



## Highwayman

joen_cph said:


> ... where Medtner is more lyrical and, perhaps, neo-Schumann or the like.


I agree with this definition and perhaps that`s why he`s my first pick in this category.

Of course Scriabin and Prokofiev are hard to deny as well.

I have not heard all of them (some of them may be _unhearable_ anyway) but both Ernst Krenek and Viktor Ullmann has 7 sonatas which worth mention.

Ornstein`s sonatas count up until no. 8 but I cannot find any info about his first three sonatas.


----------



## RobertJTh

Muzio Clementi wrote "almost 110" sonatas and sonatinas (according to Wikipedia). But that's child's play compared to J. B. Cramer, who churned out "some 200" sonatas.
One of the most profilic composers for the piano, Carl Czerny, rather surprisingly only wrote 11 sonatas.
More early romantics: Ries (52), Field (only 4), Kalkbrenner (more than 15), Woelfl (68), Kuhlau (more than 50)...


----------



## SixFootScowl

Second Trombone said:


> Here are the contenders I can identify, listed in chronological order:
> *Haydn*: 52 piano sonatas according to Hoboken, or 62 per Landon. Only about 20+ of these require the dynamic range of the piano, though all are playable on one.
> *Mozart*: 18 piano sonatas
> *Hummel*: 6 piano sonatas
> *Schubert*: 21 piano sonatas (or so, some of them incomplete)
> *Scriabin*: 10 piano sonatas
> *Prokofiev*: 10 piano sonatas


I have not explored any of these composers' piano sonatas. I am still getting familiar with Beethoven's. Too bad Rachmaninoff only wrote 2 piano sonatas.


----------



## hammeredklavier

Also consider Mozart 2-piano/4-hand sonatas, especially K.497


----------



## starthrower

HenryPenfold said:


> Scriabin
> 
> Apparently this message (Scriabin) is too short.


I'm partial to Scriabin for my listening pleasure. Not getting involved in the "greatest" debate.


----------



## joen_cph

starthrower said:


> I'm partial to Scriabin for my listening pleasure. Not getting involved in the "greatest" debate.


Having listened a lot to him recently, the 'contemporary/modern' aspect of his music was striking, IMHO. To me, his music doesn't feel 'old-fashioned' at all.


----------



## hammeredklavier




----------



## tdc

I vote for Prokofiev and Mozart. It seems to me that no one composed piano sonatas that are very similar to Beethoven's so it is hard to make direct comparisons. Schubert's piano sonatas perhaps come the closest in terms of similarity.


----------



## golfer72

Schubert def# 2. Then in no particular order Medtner , Prokofiev , and Bax ( only wrote 4 )


----------



## Bwv 1080

The designation ‘sonata’ became arbitrary in the 20th century- some composers used the term, others did not - and the ones that wrote multiple sonatas tend to be in a more conservative camp

In addition to some of the others mentioned, Bartok’s sonata is great, Bacewicz 2nd sonata is fantastic


----------



## Triplets

RobertJTh said:


> Muzio Clementi wrote "almost 110" sonatas and sonatinas (according to Wikipedia). But that's child's play compared to J. B. Cramer, who churned out "some 200" sonatas.
> One of the most profilic composers for the piano, Carl Czerny, rather surprisingly only wrote 11 sonatas.
> More early romantics: Ries (52), Field (only 4), Kalkbrenner (more than 15), Woelfl (68), Kuhlau (more than 50)...


I was wondering if Clementi would get a mention


----------



## Triplets

The OP was arbitrary in limiting it to 5 or more works. Surely Chopin and Rachmaninov deserve consideration, as well as Liszt and Schumann.


----------



## hammeredklavier

tdc said:


> It seems to me that no one composed piano sonatas that are very similar to Beethoven's so it is hard to make direct comparisons. Schubert's piano sonatas perhaps come the closest in terms of similarity.


Try Hummel sonata No.5 in F sharp minor, (especially the fugal final movement), etude Op.125 No.21 in B flat major.


----------



## fluteman

Triplets said:


> The OP was arbitrary in limiting it to 5 or more works. Surely Chopin and Rachmaninov deserve consideration, as well as Liszt and Schumann.


And Ives and Boulez.


----------



## lextune

This is a fun exercise.

For me it would be:

Beethoven
Schubert
Scriabin
Prokofiev
Mozart
Haydn


----------



## Shea82821

Scriabin, Prokofiev, Medtner, Myaskovsky, and Kapustin. I'd rate Pejacevic's just as much too, but hers isn't really a cycle, rather a pair.


----------



## Enthusiast

After Beethoven's it probably has to be Mozart's for me. Then Schubert's.


----------



## Waehnen

Rather shocking to realize that there really is no competition for Beethoven in this regard!

Obviously there are great single sonatas like the Liszt B-minor and Brahms F-minor, but when it comes to cycles, no one comes near Beethoven.

Schubert, Mozart, Prokofjev and Medtner come to mind as the closest.


----------



## mollig

There is really no competition for Beethoven in this genre, but I suppose Schubert would come a distant second.


----------



## Livly_Station

Easy Scriabin. 

I0 sonatas (+2) is a fairly sizable number, and all of them are full of character and ideas.


----------



## golfer72

Livly_Station said:


> Easy Scriabin.
> 
> I0 sonatas (+2) is a fairly sizable number, and all of them are full of character and ideas.


Many of Scriabins are short though and to me anyway seem very similar. Much more variety in Schubert


----------



## Livly_Station

golfer72 said:


> Many of Scriabins are short though and to me anyway seem very similar. Much more variety in Schubert


Short sonatas is not a problem to me, and 10 minutes is actually a reasonable length for the average.

And I don't think they sound similar. Maybe you're referring to the late sonatas? Well, if you don't get familiar with their idiom, I guess they will sound like gibberish, thus the same nonsense, too similar. However, if you listen to them a little bit more, you'll notice that each one has a different character.


----------



## pianozach

maestro267 said:


> Haydn and Mozart died waaay before Beethoven finished his cycle, so they're definitely out of the equation.


I get your drift. I thought the OP meant after Beethoven as well at first.

I think the OP meant to ask for the *2nd greatest* piano sonatas cycle of all time, _*not*_ the best one written post-Beethoven.

As for all that, it's almost silly to compare sonatas from composers that lived centuries apart. One cannot call a Mozart sonata better or worse than a Schubert or Brahms sonata. Music evolves.


----------



## Neo Romanza

Prokofiev and Scriabin get my vote.


----------



## advokat

I am partial to Scriabin, Medtner and Schubert sonatas. One notable omission from the discussion is the five sonatas by Mosolov - not my absolute favourites, but quite good.


----------



## joen_cph

advokat said:


> I am partial to Scriabin, Medtner and Schubert sonatas. One notable omission from the discussion is the five sonatas by Mosolov - not my absolute favourites, but quite good.


The 3rd of the 5 is considered lost?


----------



## advokat

joen_cph said:


> The 3rd of the 5 is considered lost?


Yes, the rest are still performed and recorded. And there are also seven very worthy sonatas by Eberl.


----------



## bwv543

RobertJTh said:


> Rheinberger's 4 sonatas are great.


Now this is interesting! He wrote 20 organ sonatas, which is I think the largest body of sonatas in the pipe organ rep, and at least 7 or 8 of them are very high quality works worth repeat listening; I did not know about the piano sonatas. Can you recommend a recording?


----------



## bwv543

SanAntone said:


> *Mieczyslaw Weinberg* wrote 6 excellent piano sonatas as well as two piano sonatinas.
> *Nikolai Myaskovsky* wrote 9 piano sonatas, also very competitive works.
> *Karol Szymanowski* wrote a lot of solo piano music, but only 3 sonatas - but they are really good, as are all of his solo piano works.
> *Wilhelm Stenhammar *wrote 4 piano sonatas.
> And finally, *Charles Wuorinen *wrote 4 fantastic piano sonatas.


Off topic slightly, but I recently discovered Stenhammar's 2nd piano concerto and it's lovely.


----------



## Bwv 1080

For me, Scriabin to Messiaen is like CPE Bach to Mozart so I would rather listen to Messiaen - who wrote no ‘Sonatas’ but created the greatest body of piano music of any 20th century composer (Bartok and Carter following closely behind)

Again the emphasis on ‘Sonatas’ just creates a bias against modernist composers


----------



## golfer72

Livly_Station said:


> Short sonatas is not a problem to me, and 10 minutes is actually a reasonable length for the average.
> 
> And I don't think they sound similar. Maybe you're referring to the late sonatas? Well, if you don't get familiar with their idiom, I guess they will sound like gibberish, thus the same nonsense, too similar. However, if you listen to them a little bit more, you'll notice that each one has a different character.


Thanks for response. I will have to listen again. Im sure there is more there. Im thinking maybe like the Bax Symphonies it takes awhile for them to take shape and differentiate themselves from each other


----------

