# annoyances connected to playing an instrument



## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

I didn't really know where to open this thread, since there's a forum for instruments and technique, but the thing is that here I'm not interested in a specific instrument but in all instruments basically so I thought that I could put it here.

What inspired me this thread was winter cold (altough technically we're not still in winter i know). I don't know if it's a problem related to all instruments (I suspect it could be less problematic for drummers for instance) but I've always struggled to play the guitar with cold hands. 
Cold, at least from my point of view, seems to be the enemy of guitar playing. I HATE to have cold hands while I'm playing. 
Broken nails are very annoying (actually nails are annoying, period). Obviously, especially beginners struggle at first with lack of calluses on fingertips. 

so for guitar:

1. cold hands
2. nails
3. calluses


I'm quite ignorant about the technique of the instrument but I've read that the trumpet can be extremely challenging, with difficulties connected especially to lips and teeth, I hope there's someone who would be more accurate about it.

But what about your own instruments and your experiences?


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## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

Actually, cold is tough for all instruments. The finger do get tight. The lips have trouble. When I was in college marching band we trombone players used vodka for a slide lubricant when football games were outside in cold weather. A concert pianist I've played with many times has some huge mittens he wears in the green room to keep his hands warm. Drummers are not immune, either. Holding sticks and beating them when your hands are cold can hurt!

Equally annoying is heat. I've played some outdoor gigs on bassoon when it was hot and humid. Your hands start dripping with sweat and it get on your finger cause slippage on the keys. It's very uncomfortable to play that way.

On either end of the temperature scale, intonation for all wind instruments goes berserk. Clarinets and especially oboes are susceptible to cracking (which is why many players use synthetic instruments outdoors).

For bassoon there's another problem most people never think about: the seat. In America, most players support the instrument with a seat strap. You cannot play sitting on a chair with arms on it, or if there is some other obstruction on your right side. But I've played more than one gig where the stage manager puts out chairs with arms. Musicians get really picky about the chair they're sitting in. A bad chair definitely inhibits playing.

The last bassoon issue I'll mention is muscle soreness and tension. For me it hits the left forearm the most. It's just the way the instrument is held. I've tried various neck straps and braces which don't help me. There's a gizmo, the Winc Bassoon Rest which places most of the weight on the right thigh, but I don't care for that either. So I stick with the seat strap and take breaks when I can. P


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Piano offers no major problems, though the pedals can be cold (slippers work). I suppose some women may have to keep their nails shorter than they'd like.

In high school I had to play trombone at football halftimes. The mouthpiece was frigid and the music was no compensation. Terrible experience.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

A moist heating pad will take care of cold hands. Calluses come with playing regularly. Tougher problems I've experienced with age are tendonitis and arthritis which make guitar and bass playing difficult. A good friend of mine recently took up the trumpet and that seems like an awful lot of work. I'll stick to guitar.


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## Handelian (Nov 18, 2020)

I’ve played the guitar in the open air to accompany carol singing with my hands freezing off! Very difficult to play in gloves! 
Piano always difficult with cold hands.


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

mbhaub said:


> Actually, cold is tough for all instruments. The finger do get tight. The lips have trouble. When I was in college marching band we trombone players used vodka for a slide lubricant when football games were outside in cold weather. A concert pianist I've played with many times has some huge mittens he wears in the green room to keep his hands warm. Drummers are not immune, either. Holding sticks and beating them when your hands are cold can hurt!


I play a bit of drums, and I have to say that in my experience while is not a pleasant experience is not even remotely close to the problems it puts on the guitar.
In any case I'm curious, do you have also problems with teeth on trombone? I remember the infamous episode of Charles Mingus punching Jimmy Knepper in the face, who lost his teeth and became unable to play.



mbhaub said:


> Equally annoying is heat. I've played some outdoor gigs on bassoon when it was hot and humid. Your hands start dripping with sweat and it get on your finger cause slippage on the keys. It's very uncomfortable to play that way.


heat is not a big problem on guitar, besides the fact that you have to clean the instrument a bit more often. Having a slippery neck and strings is actually something that helps playing better and faster for the lack of friction.



mbhaub said:


> On either end of the temperature scale, intonation for all wind instruments goes berserk. Clarinets and especially oboes are susceptible to cracking (which is why many players use synthetic instruments outdoors).
> 
> For bassoon there's another problem most people never think about: the seat. In America, most players support the instrument with a seat strap. You cannot play sitting on a chair with arms on it, or if there is some other obstruction on your right side. But I've played more than one gig where the stage manager puts out chairs with arms. Musicians get really picky about the chair they're sitting in. A bad chair definitely inhibits playing.
> 
> The last bassoon issue I'll mention is muscle soreness and tension. For me it hits the left forearm the most. It's just the way the instrument is held. I've tried various neck straps and braces which don't help me. There's a gizmo, the Winc Bassoon Rest which places most of the weight on the right thigh, but I don't care for that either. So I stick with the seat strap and take breaks when I can. P


Very interesting, a lot of things that I didn't know. I'm especially curious about the intonation problem you're saying, do you know why it happens?


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

Woodduck said:


> Piano offers no major problems, though the pedals can be cold (slippers work). I suppose some women may have to keep their nails shorter than they'd like.
> 
> In high school I had to play trombone at football halftimes. The mouthpiece was frigid *and the music was no compensation*. Terrible experience.


I wonder what kind of things you were playing on trombone now.

I suspect that if cold hands are not a problem on it, the Piano has at least, like other loud instruments a problem connected to the sheer volume. Practicising at night with close neighbours probably is out of question for a lot of people.


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## Handelian (Nov 18, 2020)

norman bates said:


> I wonder what kind of things you were playing on trombone now.
> 
> I suspect that if cold hands are not a problem on it, the Piano has at least, like other loud instruments a problem connected to the sheer volume. Practicising at night with close neighbours probably is out of question for a lot of people.


"My neighbour knocked on my door at 3am last night. I didn't hear him as I was practising my drums at the time!"


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

starthrower said:


> A moist heating pad will take care of cold hands.


well that could probably work if you have to use it occasionally, but it's not a real solution for everyday's practice.



starthrower said:


> Calluses come with playing regularly.


of course. Altough I've had issues with it changing from classical guitar to the electric, it's like it requires a completely different kind of calluses. And even a guy like Steve Vai showed recently his destroyed fingertips cause he was using the kind of bending technique used by Jerry Donahue on his song "candle power".



starthrower said:


> Tougher problems I've experienced with age are tendonitis and arthritis which make guitar and bass playing difficult. A good friend of mine recently took up the trumpet and that seems like an awful lot of work. I'll stick to guitar.


I wasn't considering those kind of physical problems because those are health problems more than something related to normal use of the instrument (debatable I know). I've sufferend for tunnel carpal syndrome, tendinitis (fortunately I recovered from both things) but even worse, focal dystonia (which I still have). 
One problem related to bass playing are probably blisters. I remember when I discovered double thumb (the technique used for slap by Victor Wooten) and the huge blisters on my thumb.


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## Handelian (Nov 18, 2020)

A friend of mine lost his job just before one Christmas. As he was a very versatile musician he went into the high street dressed as Santa and with his guitar, drum, etc, as a ‘one man band’ playing carols. He collected more money than he usually earned!


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## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

norman bates said:


> I play a bit of drums, and I have to say that in my experience while is not a pleasant experience is not even remotely close to the problems it puts on the guitar.
> In any case I'm curious, do you have also problems with teeth on trombone? I remember the infamous episode of Charles Mingus punching Jimmy Knepper in the face, who lost his teeth and became unable to play.
> 
> heat is not a big problem on guitar, besides the fact that you have to clean the instrument a bit more often. Having a slippery neck and strings is actually something that helps playing better and faster for the lack of friction.
> ...


The instrument material, be it wood or metal contracts or expands ever so slightly depending on temperature - you can't see the change, maybe with an extremely high precision tool it could be measured, but it's enough to change the pitch of the instrument. And the air temperature effects it to a large extent. Playing in cold rooms makes wind instruments go flat. There's a lot of physics behind it that I'll leave to the physics gurus. What I do to compensate is use the no. 1 bocal which is the shortest and raises the pitch. Trumpets, horns and trombones can compensate with tuning slides. But clarinets and oboes have a bigger challenge.


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## Roger Knox (Jul 19, 2017)

norman bates said:


> I wasn't considering those kind of physical problems because those are health problems more than something related to normal use of the instrument (debatable I know). I've sufferend for tunnel carpal syndrome, tendinitis (fortunately I recovered from both things) but even worse, focal dystonia (which I still have).


Those are injuries, not annoyances. This is a crucial point. When I was in my early 20's, as a pianist at the virtuoso level I developed what was eventually diagnosed as a pinched nerve requiring surgery. Usually I don't mention this on the web and I'm not going write any more here. Except to note that minimization is dangerous for musicians. Getting the attention and following the advice of expert doctors is essential.


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

Roger Knox said:


> Those are injuries, not annoyances. This is a crucial point. When I was in my early 20's, as a pianist at the virtuoso level I developed what was eventually diagnosed as a pinched nerve requiring surgery. Usually I don't mention this on the web and I'm not going write any more here. Except to note that minimization is dangerous for musicians. Getting the attention and following the advice of expert doctors is essential.


I absolutely agree, I wasn't minimizing those things. I actually didn't mentioned those as annoyances, I was just replying to Starthrower. Actually to me focal dystonia in particular has made to me impossible to play a lot of things that before were easy for me. It stopped a lot of careers of musicians, and I'm sure it's true for a lot of other injuries.


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

mbhaub said:


> The instrument material, be it wood or metal contracts or expands ever so slightly depending on temperature - you can't see the change, maybe with an extremely high precision tool it could be measured, but it's enough to change the pitch of the instrument. And the air temperature effects it to a large extent. Playing in cold rooms makes wind instruments go flat. There's a lot of physics behind it that I'll leave to the physics gurus. What I do to compensate is use the no. 1 bocal which is the shortest and raises the pitch. Trumpets, horns and trombones can compensate with tuning slides. But clarinets and oboes have a bigger challenge.


I knew that oboe is the instrument that is used to give the A to the rest of the orchestra, does temperature affect it?


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## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

Sure, and there is no more tempermental instrument than an oboe. Those small, fragile reeds are really tricky things. You'd have to ask an oboist, but they probably make the reed shorter to compensate. Not sure.


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## consuono (Mar 27, 2020)

I use Pianoteq on a digital piano. Hook up laptop to piano, hook up headphones to laptop. The routine can get tiresome compared to just sitting down and playing.

I'm also studying the cello which has its own annoyances and can be a money pit: $200+ sets of strings, seemingly constant tuning while holding your breath hoping not to snap that $40 A string, spending sickening amounts of money to find just the right string combo for your cello -- while finding out that that set of Thomastiks that sounded great on Rostropovich's Strad sounds like crap on your more humble and lowborn baby, pulling the thing out of its case and putting it back up, being heard all over the neighborhood even with a mute.

Still, I love both.


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## Ariasexta (Jul 3, 2010)

The callus thing is less an annoyance than finding the scores I want, I need to transcribe 98% of the music pieces I want to play for guitar and the scores are damn expensive.


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## NoCoPilot (Nov 9, 2020)

I'm always annoyed when someone offers me a lift to the gig with my octobass, and they show up in a sedan.


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## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

Speaking of cold instruments, once I was supposed to play saxophone on a float in a parade, but just as the float began to drive off, my saxophone stopped playing. The contraction due to the cold was just enough to loosen the glue on one of the pads, and it fell off into my lap. (I was fortunate that it was the D pad, so I could play using side keys.)


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

consuono said:


> I use Pianoteq on a digital piano. Hookup laptop to piano, hookup headphones to laptop. The routine can get tiresome compared to just sitting down and playing.
> 
> I'm also studying the cello which has its own annoyances and can be a money pit: $200+ sets of strings, seemingly constant tuning while holding your breath hoping not to snap that $40 A string, spending sickening amounts of money to find just the right string combo for your cello, pulling the thing out of its case and putting it back up, being heard all over the neighborhood even with a mute.
> 
> Still, I love both.


yeah, and if you have problems with a cello that has such a pleasing sound I don't know how it's possible especially for a beginner violinist to practice with that loud penetrating sound with close neighbours, even with mutes. I have a cheap violin at home and it's just embarassing.


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## consuono (Mar 27, 2020)

norman bates said:


> yeah, and if you have problems with a cello that has such a pleasing sound I don't know how it's possible especially for a beginner violinist to practice with that loud penetrating sound with close neighbours, even with mutes. I have a cheap violin at home and it's just embarassing.


Oh man, I wouldn't even begin to try. :lol:


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## SONNET CLV (May 31, 2014)

Hand cramp -- guitar?

Back in the day when I was playing lead guitar with a four piece rock band (of which I no longer recall the name, recalling only that we generally changed our band's name after every gig so that our reputation didn't follow us!), we were hired for a three hour gig at a local fraternity -- a dance marathon designed to raise money for some charity or other (though you'd never know that from the spectacle at the frat that night). We were scheduled from 9 to 12 PM, on the closing end of the marathon (one of those dance till you drop, last couple standing wins affairs) and played our three hours -- mostly fast stuff (to exercise the dancers) with plenty of lead work (to exercise the player's hands) -- after which we learned that the next and final band scheduled had not arrived and we were asked to stay on, if we wanted, for some extra cash, and so some frat rat wouldn't have to work too hard spinning records instead, and so we said yes.

To make this already dreadful long story a touch shorter, hopefully, it was somewhere well into the fifth hour of playing that my left hand simply froze up -- a total cramp. It had never happened before (and it never happened anytime afterwards, but then I never again played a frat marathon dance!), and I spent the remaining time playing literally with one finger in a bottle-neck fashion. Fortunately, somewhere in the sixth hour before the record playing guy was scheduled to take over and close up the marathon, the dance session ended because two of the final three couples collapsed to the floor. (I wonder what the dancers' cramps felt like. I certainly felt like collapsing with the unsuccessful dancers.)

The frozen hand was a bit scary at the time it happened, but it's always since provided me with an excuse for any poor guitar playing on my part, an excuse I often need. Permanent damage to the hand and all that crap. Well, some people buy that story. But the story of the hand cramp after five-plus hours of playing at a frat marathon dance is absolutely true.

I suspect a cramp frozen left hand on guitar is still better than frozen lips on a horn mouthpiece at some doggone cold football halftime show, of which I recall many a brass playing acquaintance complaining about.


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## consuono (Mar 27, 2020)

For the guitar, I imagine one annoyance would be having the fingernails on your "strumming" hand look like Nosferatu's. :lol:


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## NoCoPilot (Nov 9, 2020)

British sax player Elton Dean had such dental problems, thanks to National Health, that he had to stop playing. A friend of mine paid almost $10,000 to have his teeth fixed so he could form the embouchure again.


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

SONNET CLV said:


> Hand cramp -- guitar?
> 
> Back in the day when I was playing lead guitar with a four piece rock band (of which I no longer recall the name, recalling only that we generally changed our band's name after every gig so that our reputation didn't follow us!), we were hired for a three hour gig at a local fraternity -- a dance marathon designed to raise money for some charity or other (though you'd never know that from the spectacle at the frat that night). We were scheduled from 9 to 12 PM, on the closing end of the marathon (one of those dance till you drop, last couple standing wins affairs) and played our three hours -- mostly fast stuff (to exercise the dancers) with plenty of lead work (to exercise the player's hands) -- after which we learned that the next and final band scheduled had not arrived and we were asked to stay on, if we wanted, for some extra cash, and so some frat rat wouldn't have to work too hard spinning records instead, and so we said yes.
> 
> ...


Fortunately this never happened to me, but I can relate with the experience of playing with just one finger. Fortunately at least I hadn't to do it in front of a audience, but for many months when I suffered for the carpal tunnel the only way I had to make any kind of exercise was using only my pinky of my left finger, because it was impossible to use the other ones. And I didn't even had a Ravel piece written for the left pinky.


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

consuono said:


> For the guitar, I imagine one annoyance would be having the fingernails on your "strumming" hand look like Nosferatu's. :lol:


yes, personally I hate it, and unlike other people I don't have very long nails.


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## Allegro Con Brio (Jan 3, 2020)

Playing piano with cold hands is certainly a nuisance. Living in a colder climate as I do, I often soak my hands in hot water for about a minute before playing. Also when playing other pianos, when the keys are very heavy and sticky which can totally mess up the preparation you did on your home piano.

I took about a year of pipe organ lessons until COVID hit and I couldn't practice in churches anymore. A consistent problem was benches that didn't raise high enough to support my long legs so I could comfortably play the pedal board.


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## Vasks (Dec 9, 2013)

So far lots of personal physical challenges. But there are other types of annoyances. 

For example, I have had a really difficult time playing when there's a young child right in front of me. All the gestures, movements and comments are truly distracting.

Another one: where I am playing at a reception and people literally bump into me as they mill about.


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## pianozach (May 21, 2018)

mbhaub said:


> . . . Actually, cold is tough for all instruments. . . .
> 
> Equally annoying is heat.
> 
> For bassoon there's another problem most people never think about: the seat. In America, most players support the instrument with a seat strap. You cannot play sitting on a chair with arms on it, or if there is some other obstruction on your right side. But I've played more than one gig where the stage manager puts out chairs with arms. Musicians get really picky about the chair they're sitting in. A bad chair definitely inhibits playing.


Yep, both *cold* and *heat* are bad.

*Seat*. Yes, we can get rather picky about our seating. Personally, as a *pianist*/keyboardist, I'm quite picky about the seat height.

Pianos are often put up on wheels or on a trolley with wheels, but no one ever puts the matching bench up so the heights have the same proportions. I really don't like feeling as though I'm having to reach UP to the keys.

Twice a year I conduct from the keys for our G&S shows, and our keyboard stand does not go low enough and a regular chair is too low for it. I'll often stack two chairs to bring the height up.

Our *violinist* brings her own wooden chair that she's comfy with.


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## Posauner (Nov 8, 2020)

The physical space required to play an instrument is not always considered. As a trombonist, I require a clear zone not only in front for the slide, but also behind my head for the tuning slide. I have arrived to gigs in very tight pits, with the row in front right up against my music stand, and the chair backed against the wall. 

And if there is only a narrow space to accommodate the slide, a portion of my attention has to be focused on keeping my slide from hitting chairs or other obstructions instead of playing.


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## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

NoCoPilot said:


> British sax player Elton Dean had such dental problems, thanks to National Health, that he had to stop playing. A friend of mine paid almost $10,000 to have his teeth fixed so he could form the embouchure again.


Whoa! I know a french horn player who had a cast made of her teeth so that if something happened, they could reconstruct her mouth properly.


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## Posauner (Nov 8, 2020)

Manxfeeder said:


> Whoa! I know a french horn player who had a cast made of her teeth so that if something happened, they could reconstruct her mouth properly.


The famous trumpeter Rafael Mendez suffered a nearly-career-ending mouth injury. He was warming up in a theater and a door accidentally smashed his trumpet into his face. It took considerable rehabilitation for him to return to performing.


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

Posauner said:


> The famous trumpeter Rafael Mendez suffered a nearly-career-ending mouth injury. He was warming up in a theater and a door accidentally smashed his trumpet into his face. It took considerable rehabilitation for him to return to performing.


Same thing happened to the great Bud Herseth, of CSO fame....terrible auto accident in late 40s smashed up his mouth....fortunately a cast had been made if his dental and jaw structure' and reconstruction was made possible....he went on to a remarkable 50+ year career as CSO Orincipal trumpet.


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

Temperature and humidity can really play havoc with insttuments, as several have already noted...the reeds/mouthpiece, air column and the instrument material itself are all affected to some degree.
When it is really cold, reeds play harder, stiffer, more balky in response...in hot humid conditions, the reeds feel more mushy, soft - notes may be flat, or collapse....
Atmospheric changes in the performance hall between rehearsal and performance events can be a real trial....one orchestra I performed with for many years had this problem... during the week, the hall was kept cool, dry.....at concert times, the heat was turned up, and of course humidity increased with all of the breathing bodies present in the hall. A reed that worked well in rehearsal might totally washout in the performance environment...last minute selections and adjustments were a routine occurrence.


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## Roger Knox (Jul 19, 2017)

norman bates said:


> I absolutely agree, I wasn't minimizing those things. I actually didn't mentioned those as annoyances, I was just replying to Starthrower. Actually to me focal dystonia in particular has made to me impossible to play a lot of things that before were easy for me. It stopped a lot of careers of musicians, and I'm sure it's true for a lot of other injuries.


I'm very sorry, I misread your post and over-reacted. You are right and weren't minimizing. I was "triggered" upon reading about musicians' injuries, but that's no excuse because I have a lot of writing experience and should have been more careful. Best of luck with your music and take care.


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## Luchesi (Mar 15, 2013)

Woodduck said:


> Piano offers no major problems, though the pedals can be cold (slippers work). I suppose some women may have to keep their nails shorter than they'd like.
> 
> In high school I had to play trombone at football halftimes. The mouthpiece was frigid and the music was no compensation. Terrible experience.


I've tuned my pianos and I confess I get a little obsessed with touching them up. Brightening the treble. 'Annoying other members of the household. Dealing with changes in humidity, ugh! Worrying about weakening the pin block stability.

I broke off a F# somehow and glued it back ever so slightly off center. That's infuriating when I play now. My wife says she can't even feel the offset. She doesn't play very often..


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## JAS (Mar 6, 2013)

My experience as a mediocre clarinet player in high school is that the clarinet is an instrument that is designed to squeak. (It is far too dependent on highly variable, damp bit of reed for making its sound.) The fact that that there are people who can play even very high notes with perfect control, and no squeaking, is a feat that never fails to amaze me.

(Also, pouring spit out of brass instruments is pretty gross too. Maybe professionals have better technique and control and do not have to do this as often as my brother did.)


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## tdc (Jan 17, 2011)

Nail shape always annoyed me on classical guitar. Nowadays I play non-classical music mostly on guitar, and have switched to piano mainly for classical, but have found that nails are still an issue. It is not as difficult to manage as on guitar but my nails must be kept not too long or too short and I round the corners with a file, because if the corners of the nail are sharp they start to dig into the skin after a while.


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## EnescuCvartet (Dec 16, 2016)

I actually do experience problems with pianos. Namely, anytime I visit a house with one, it's decorative rather than functional. Even if there is a player lives there and there's music on the stand, the piano is sure to be out of tune. Or the pedals don't work.

My electric stage piano at home presents problems unique to the keyboard. The lower octaves are wearing down to the point where the action is terrible.

Drums: if you go for a while without practicing, then have a long gig or okay for a long time, you're liable to create and open new calluses. Many a time I bled. Actually, come to think of it, I played during a lot of pain a lot of times. I drummed a gig with broken ribs. Ouch! 

Guitar: calluses help. You have to build them up and play through it. Breaking strings is the annoying aspect of the instrument.


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

Roger Knox said:


> I'm very sorry, I misread your post and over-reacted. You are right and weren't minimizing. I was "triggered" upon reading about musicians' injuries, but that's no excuse because I have a lot of writing experience and should have been more careful. Best of luck with your music and take care.


Don't worry, my english is terrible (like my comment you quoted clearly shows) so I guess it's easy to misread what I write and fortunately music is just a passion for me and not a profession. It sucks, but I still can play certain things (and slowly I've seen certain improvements). But for professional musicians, it surely can be a nightmare.


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

Luchesi said:


> I've tuned my pianos and I confess I get a little obsessed with touching them up. Brightening the treble. 'Annoying other members of the household. Dealing with changes in humidity, ugh! Worrying about weakening the pin block stability.
> 
> I broke off a F# somehow and glued it back ever so slightly off center. That's infuriating when I play now. My wife says she can't even feel the offset. She doesn't play very often..


Reading your comment I was thinking how tuning could be a big annoyance for pianists. I don't even know how much it costs to call someone to tune a piano and how long is the process.


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

JAS said:


> My experience as a mediocre clarinet player in high school is that the clarinet is an instrument that is designed to squeak. (It is far too dependent on highly variable, damp bit of reed for making its sound.) The fact that that there are people who can play even very high notes with perfect control, and no squeaking, is a feat that never fails to amaze me.


I think it's the same for trumpet players. That's probably the reason why those who play those instruments are so obsessed with high notes. Not being someone who has ever touched a clarinet or a trumpet I confess I've always found hard to share the enthusiasm for the ability to play super high notes.


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

tdc said:


> Nail shape always annoyed me on classical guitar. Nowadays I play non-classical music mostly on guitar, and have switched to piano mainly for classical, but have found that nails are still an issue. It is not as difficult to manage as on guitar but my nails must be kept not too long or too short and I round the corners with a file, because if the corners of the nail are sharp they start to dig into the skin after a while.


I suspect that for you nails are also a issue playing the piano. Have I already said that I hate nails?


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## Handelian (Nov 18, 2020)

Luchesi said:


> I've tuned my pianos and I confess I get a little obsessed with touching them up. Brightening the treble. 'Annoying other members of the household. Dealing with changes in humidity, ugh! Worrying about weakening the pin block stability.
> 
> I broke off a F# somehow and glued it back ever so slightly off center. That's infuriating when I play now. My wife says she can't even feel the offset. She doesn't play very often..


I always leave tuning to a professional. Unless you know what you're doing you can do more harm than good.


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## consuono (Mar 27, 2020)

Handelian said:


> I always leave tuning to a professional. Unless you know what you're doing you can do more harm than good.


That's the attitude I should probably have with my playing. :lol:


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

EnescuCvartet said:


> My electric stage piano at home presents problems unique to the keyboard. The lower octaves are wearing down to the point where the action is terrible.


I've always been a huge fan of electric pianos, like the wurlitzer, the clavient or especially the fender rhodes. 
I just love the sound of the rhodes to the point that I've often considered buying one, but I've read many times that the instrument is so delicate and easy to damage and there are few people who know how to repair it so I'm a bit scared about it. I know that Herbie Hancock for the same reason learned to repair it by himself.



EnescuCvartet said:


> Drums: if you go for a while without practicing, then have a long gig or okay for a long time, you're liable to create and open new calluses. *Many a time I bled.* Actually, come to think of it, I played during a lot of pain a lot of times. I drummed a gig with broken ribs. Ouch!


Really? I've never had that kind of problem. Onestly I thought it was an exaggeration of the movie Whiplash.


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

Handelian said:


> I always leave tuning to a professional. Unless you know what you're doing you can do more harm than good.


can I ask you just for curiosity if it's expensive, and how often you have to do it?

Also, now I'm curious to know if there's some harpist and what are their annoyances (I suspect that tuning is one for them too)


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## pianozach (May 21, 2018)

norman bates said:


> can I ask you just for curiosity if it's expensive, and how often you have to do it?
> 
> Also, now I'm curious to know if there's some harpist and what are their annoyances (I suspect that tuning is one for them too)


I know a harpist. We've worked together several times.

Biggest problem seems to be transportation. It's big, it's heavy, it's awkward, and it's very expensive, so you have to be very careful when moving this monster.

It's also a pain in the *** to mic properly.


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## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

norman bates said:


> can I ask you just for curiosity if it's expensive, and how often you have to do it?
> 
> Also, now I'm curious to know if there's some harpist and what are their annoyances (I suspect that tuning is one for them too)


I have my 7 ft. mini grand tuned every six months by a professional. Costs $125 and worth every cent. He also adjusts everything and makes sure it's working properly. Not keeping it tune can do a lot of damage in the long run. At some point the strings become so out of tune that bringing the whole instrument up to A440 is impossible. Finding a good piano tuner is really getting hard, too. It's not just getting each string to the right pitch.


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## Coach G (Apr 22, 2020)

My annoyance is that I've never had the coordination or talent to play a musical instrument correctly (I never could play sports very well, either). While I couldn't care less about sports, I'd give three of my toes to be able to play classical music on the piano, the violin, the guitar, the harp, the flute, the slide trombone...

...and I did try the slide trombone for a few years. It just seems like to play an instrument correctly, you have to practice and practice and practice just to be terrible at it. 

It you've mastered the skills and the knowledge to create something beautiful with a musical instrument than you very fortunate and truly blessed.


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## Luchesi (Mar 15, 2013)

norman bates said:


> Reading your comment I was thinking how tuning could be a big annoyance for pianists. I don't even know how much it costs to call someone to tune a piano and how long is the process.


It's fun when you're young and strong and you want to tune your instruments the way you like it. You don't want to always to be calling a technician for the waverings in a few keys.

Currently I don't know exactly what the piano guild members are required to charge these days. Probably $100 for two or three hours work and maybe a free follow-up, maybe not.
There's so few pianos in homes anymore. It's difficult to support a family with individual customers anymore, so you need to get contracts with schools and a university etc.

There's 88 keys, the same as the number of official constellations in the sky! Coincidence? I don't think so ha ha

After another retirement Horowitz was asked by a reporter- how does it feel to be back at the 88s again, Maestro? He looked very puzzled. He'd never heard that phrase before. He thought it might be some club in New York City. ￼


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## EnescuCvartet (Dec 16, 2016)

Yes Norman, it was all too real for me. The reason it doesn't happen often and probably was an exaggeration in Whiplash, is because most drummers play daily, or at any rate, don't go several weeks without drumming. In my case, I was more interested in piano, guitar and songwriting. Also I was in the same band since we were all in short pants, so we hardly ever practiced. On too if that, our gigs would often run three hours or more. The result being that I never kept my calluses and would bleed at such long shows. 

I agree about the Wurlitzer. I actually have a Farfisa. It's awesome, but needs repairs. Extensive repairs.


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## Luchesi (Mar 15, 2013)

Handelian said:


> I always leave tuning to a professional. Unless you know what you're doing you can do more harm than good.


Yes, it's easy to break a string on an old piano.

When strobe tuners (visual tuners) became available many young people thought they would buy one and make some part-time money doing pianos. They would go to a house and they would pound and pound away and they would get all done and it sounded terrible! So they would start all over again and it would still sound terrible! But since they couldn't tune without a strobe they were up a creek without a paddle. Then they would have to pay some professional to come in and do the job! 'Very expensive for them.

Every piano needs to be 'tuned' to itself, especially old pianos. You need to have an ear for acoustics AND an ear for temperament, for fifths and fourths etc.. They're two different types of 'hearing'.


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## Taplow (Aug 13, 2017)

Violin:

I can never seem to keep the damn thing comfortably under my chin for long periods of time. I blame it on the shoulder rest. Damn thing keeps slipping off my sloping shoulder … or worse still, popping off the instrument all together and landing on the floor. Not recommended if you're actually trying to _avoid_ the glare of the conductor. I also have a long neck, which doesn't help.

Also, E-strings. Don't get me started on those. Why is it they seem to have about 1/10 the life of the others before the open string starts sounding like a squealing lemur on heat? Terrible if you're trying to play the Bach Partita No. 3.

Dum *screech* de *screech* dah *screech* de *screech* dum *screech* de *screech* dah *screech* de *screech* dum!

… or maybe I'm just a really bad violinist.


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## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

Taplow said:


> Violin:
> 
> I can never seem to keep the damn thing comfortably under my chin for long periods of time. I blame it on the shoulder rest. Damn thing keeps slipping off my sloping shoulder … or worse still, popping off the instrument all together and landing on the floor. Not recommended if you're actually trying to _avoid_ the glare of the conductor. I also have a long neck, which doesn't help.
> 
> ...


First, you're using the wrong shoulder rest for you. When I studied violin I had the same problem and my teacher had me use a large sponge - worked like a charm!

That screeching is perfectly normal when you're starting. It's all in the bow - the angle, position, speed, pressure. So many things to work out. But that's what practicing is all about. I didn't break e strings so much as bridges!


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## Luchesi (Mar 15, 2013)

Taplow said:


> Violin:
> 
> I can never seem to keep the damn thing comfortably under my chin for long periods of time. I blame it on the shoulder rest. Damn thing keeps slipping off my sloping shoulder … or worse still, popping off the instrument all together and landing on the floor. Not recommended if you're actually trying to _avoid_ the glare of the conductor. I also have a long neck, which doesn't help.
> 
> ...


It struck me years ago that Itzhak always used a white towel of some kind. I thought that was probably the best way? But really? 
I sympathize, because the piano seems to be the only instrument that isn't 'painful' to play. Of course, as you get older, octaves etc. on the piano can give you many different types of strains! They're not noticed right away and it's a big problem.

My violinist complains about how loud his violin is in his ears and he's worried about his hearing! Of course, we're old people and we have aches and pains we never used to have. …I never thought I'd have these problems. heh


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## Luchesi (Mar 15, 2013)

Coach G said:


> My annoyance is that I've never had the coordination or talent to play a musical instrument correctly (I never could play sports very well, either). While I couldn't care less about sports, I'd give three of my toes to be able to play classical music on the piano, the violin, the guitar, the harp, the flute, the slide trombone...
> 
> ...and I did try the slide trombone for a few years. It just seems like to play an instrument correctly, you have to practice and practice and practice just to be terrible at it.
> 
> It you've mastered the skills and the knowledge to create something beautiful with a musical instrument than you very fortunate and truly blessed.


This is my opinion only. I've taught for many years and one thing that beginners don't realize is that you need to have a growing interest in the arcane minutia of music, so that you'll practice enough to achieve the breakthroughs - which reinforce your love of playing. If you don't get these breakthroughs, most normal people will not keep it up. ...It's sad to say. So they need to be told this upfront from somebody they trust.

Very young people will do what they're told by their parents and their teachers! so they are much more likely to succeed (and of course, there's that young brain pathway advantage they all have, over older beginners).


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## Machiavel (Apr 12, 2010)

Some stiffness in the neck only when I try to imitate Lang Lang :devil:


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## consuono (Mar 27, 2020)

Luchesi said:


> This is my opinion only. I've taught for many years and one thing that beginners don't realize is that you need to have a growing interest in the arcane minutia of music, so that you'll practice enough to achieve the breakthroughs - which reinforce your love of playing. If you don't get these breakthroughs, most normal people will not keep it up. ...It's sad to say. So they need to be told this upfront from somebody they trust.
> 
> Very young people will do what they're told by their parents and their teachers! so they are much more likely to succeed (and of course, there's that young brain pathway advantage they all have, over older beginners).


I think it's because children are going to be more "patient" about learning than adults will be. Adults want instant progress and get frustrated if it doesn't happen. A kid probably isn't going to care, but will just trudge along as they did with learning the alphabet and how to read.


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## BlackAdderLXX (Apr 18, 2020)

For my guitar I'd say I agree with cold hands. Also cold and warm really mess with tuning/intonation. I think the biggest pain for me with guitar is the G being in tune. I don't know about the math if it but it seems like the equal temperament tuning is especially unkind to G, which is also the last wound string on acoustic and is a bear to keep perfectly tuned. When I first started the fingertips were always sore but now after 30 years it's not even callouses as much as my fingertips are just thicker and less sensitive.


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## SearsPoncho (Sep 23, 2020)

I play piano and, occasionally, guitar (classical and electric). I've found I have to be vigilant about my posture and sitting up straight, otherwise, I can get some nasty back pain.

Another odd thing is that when I'm really locked in, I have to remind myself to breathe.


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## Harmonie (Mar 24, 2007)

I remember when I began originally trying to play the oboe, I had sores on my fingers from work, and those were terrible. It was okay for me to play the bassoon, since it had open hole keys, but the oboe just didn't work. Thankfully those sores on my fingers were just a temporary thing that hasn't happened again and when I later learned oboe, it was all okay.

With the bassoon, the annoyances with it is just that it is such a large, awkward instrument to carry around, sat down, etc. And if you hold the bassoon the wrong way, its parts can slip apart on you. It's never happened to me, but I've heard horror stories. The awkwardness of holding your bassoon, reed, reed case, reed water holder, and music while standing in wait outside the stage for a concert while the rest of the orchestra is all relaxed and even has free hands can never be forgotten.

Another thing with the bassoon, if you have a piece of held notes in the mid to upper range of the instrument (like in Lauridsen's O Magnum Mysterium) it will irritate the heck out of your mouth. Sometimes I think "well, maybe I was just doing it wrong", but then a few years ago I played it again in an ensemble where I was on oboe, and the bassoonist complained about the very same thing, so it wasn't just me.


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## Coach G (Apr 22, 2020)

Luchesi said:


> This is my opinion only. I've taught for many years and one thing that beginners don't realize is that you need to have a growing interest in the arcane minutia of music, so that you'll practice enough to achieve the breakthroughs - which reinforce your love of playing. If you don't get these breakthroughs, most normal people will not keep it up. ...It's sad to say. So they need to be told this upfront from somebody they trust.
> 
> Very young people will do what they're told by their parents and their teachers! so they are much more likely to succeed (and of course, there's that young brain pathway advantage they all have, over older beginners).


There are two things I wish I could do well and they both involve communicating with others: Play a musical instrument correctly and master second language. I speak some Spanish, but it's very choppy and I can't read or write it. I learned some Italian when I was a teenager. I grew up in a house with Italian-American grandparents and my grandmother was fluent. There were so many Italians in my old neighborhood that they they taught classes in Italian at my public high school. Whenever I meet a young person who has the opportunity to play an instrument or speak a second language well, I tell them don't lose it, even if you think it doesn't matter.


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## Roger Knox (Jul 19, 2017)

norman bates said:


> I think it's the same for trumpet players. That's probably the reason why those who play those instruments are so obsessed with high notes. Not being someone who has ever touched a clarinet or a trumpet I confess I've always found hard to share the enthusiasm for the ability to play super high notes.


But the results are amazing nowadays, even more so with the French horn. If the high note can be done consistently with decent tone, fine, if not I'm like you.


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

Roger Knox said:


> But the results are amazing nowadays, even more so with the French horn. If the high note can be done consistently with decent tone, fine, if not I'm like you.


You know, I don't think I can recall any super high note on a french horn now, do you have any example?
In any case I don't have anything against high notes obviously, and I'm sure it's extremely difficult. It's just that like for voice, it's more a matter of context to me. In the right context a high note can sound amazing, in the wrong one just a gratuitous display of chops.


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## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

High notes on horn:

Franz Schmidt 2nd Symphony, the first movement is loaded with high, treacherous horn parts.

Shostakovich, 5th Symphony, first movement. At the end there's that famous horn part with the flute. Missed many times in concert!

Schumann, Konzertstuck for Four Horns and orchestra. The first part requires lips and nerves of steel. That high E is really hard.


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

More high notes on horn:
-Symphonia Domestica - Strauss - at one point goes to high concert A, like Schumann Konzertstuck....any Strauss tone poem actually
-Haydn - several symphonies, esp #51 - which several times goes to High concert Bb
-Bach - B'burg #1


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

Performing on any instrument, comfort and relaxation are of paramount importance...I cannot relate at all to pain, strain, tension, etc as factors in musical performance. Correct habits minimize physical problems and discomforts.
My instrument, bassoon, is heavy and can present challenges with balance and support...special attention must be given to adequate support and proper balance...I've always used a seat strap which worked fine for me...years ago, I began to bring a seat cushion with me to every service...this was great "equalizer"', which evened out the wide variety of seating available at different performance sites...I could always be comfortable, the strap properly held, the seat height adjusted correctly....
Posture, breathing, body position are all-important as well...one must be relaxed, able to breathe freely, keeping the shoulders down when inhaling. correct hand position is important as well....hands and fingers in as straight a line as possible with forearm and wrists....excessive flexing of wrists definitely causes problems...
When a musician practices these crucial points as routine procedure, relaxed, tension-free performance is the natural result...one can play long services, lengthy rehearsal/concert sequences without tension, cramping, muscle aches and pains and various other discomforts.
I always found that my mental concentration, ability to focus usually waned before any physical problems set in....playing on light, well-balanced, resonant reeds enabled me to essentially play all day without physical limitation


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## Luchesi (Mar 15, 2013)

Coach G said:


> There are two things I wish I could do well and they both involve communicating with others: Play a musical instrument correctly and master second language. I speak some Spanish, but it's very choppy and I can't read or write it. I learned some Italian when I was a teenager. I grew up in a house with Italian-American grandparents and my grandmother was fluent. There were so many Italians in my old neighborhood that they they taught classes in Italian at my public high school. Whenever I meet a young person who has the opportunity to play an instrument or speak a second language well, I tell them don't lose it, even if you think it doesn't matter.


You can do it. You can learn to play fake piano and pop songs to commune with your like-minded friends (of your generation of pop favorites). It takes less than two years practicing, which should be mostly just fun and playing around.

The important driver is, you really want to do it. You'll have to rewire some pathways in your brain, it's somewhat 'painful'. But so many people come up and tell us they wish they had continued with music, now that they're older and retired (we give a recital and a talkback every Tuesday, pandemic permitting). It's the best old-age therapy, it never gets old (like so many other joys in life).


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## pianozach (May 21, 2018)

I took a band class in 6th grade (11 years old?).

They handed me a cornet. 

After that I didn't touch anything other than a piano until I was 16. Gawd that band teacher was a complete jerk. Sonstegard, Howard Sonstegard. 

In my twenties I ended up being cast as a trumpet player in a show. I was handed a trumpet and was asked if I could learn a particular piece of music. I did learn it, but an 8va lower than written - not enough time to develop an embouchure that could take me past E5. I lip-synched to a recorded track, but at least it was a decent lip-synching.


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## Luchesi (Mar 15, 2013)

pianozach said:


> I took a band class in 6th grade (11 years old?).
> 
> They handed me a cornet.
> 
> ...


Yes, a young person gets an undergraduate degree in music and then he can't find a job to live on so he teaches grade school kids. He's a bad teacher and the kids are not interested anyway. It's a terrible combination and it's the first introduction to the fundamentals of music for the kids.

I had a very bad teacher in seventh grade he would stand at the chalkboard, scribble out staves, and the names of the notes. He hardly ever looked at us. He just wanted to play music and had no dreams of teaching. I was interested in learning music, but I think I was the only one. What does a kid know?


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## pianozach (May 21, 2018)

Luchesi said:


> Yes, a young person gets an undergraduate degree in music and then he can't find a job to live on so he teaches grade school kids. He's a bad teacher and the kids are not interested anyway. It's a terrible combination and it's the first introduction to the fundamentals of music for the kids.
> 
> I had a very bad teacher in seventh grade he would stand at the chalkboard, scribble out staves, and the names of the notes. He hardly ever looked at us. He just wanted to play music and had no dreams of teaching. I was interested in learning music, but I think I was the only one. What does a kid know?


Mr. Howard Sonstegard told me not to continue, as I'd never be any good at it.

F-ing jerkwad. A-hole.

I think he's still alive. He ended up being the choir director at a large local Lutheran church, and retired two years ago. He was also the principal trumpet player and assistant conductor of the local orchestra until it was "merged" with the only other local symphony orchestra 25 years ago. A lot of players ended up "on the outside" when that happened, including him.

Fortunately I'd been playing piano for years already, and only a few years away from competing in Bach Festivals. I had my first offer to be in a rock band when I was 14.


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## Luchesi (Mar 15, 2013)

pianozach said:


> Mr. Howard Sonstegard told me not to continue, as I'd never be any good at it.
> 
> F-ing jerkwad. A-hole.
> 
> ...


Maybe you were a "destructive influence" in his class, at least in his opinion. Can you remember that far back? Were you bored?
He was probably just a frustrated, unhappy person. The principals should look in on these classrooms to see how outlandishly they're run.


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## musichal (Oct 17, 2020)

Heat and cold have no - or very little - effect on my guitar playing. Or my singing, either. Hot, cold or lukewarm I play and sing with gusto. Pretty much equally badly.


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## Handelian (Nov 18, 2020)

I went many years ago to a concert to hear the late great George Malcolm play Bach. It basin a cathedral on a very cold November night in tick fog. There was actually a layer of fog in the cathedral itself! The concert was delayed because the orchestra had got lost in the fog. We sat huddled in overcoats against the cold. How on earth Malcolm played the Brandenburg 5 I will never know! I think he had his gloves on till the moment he started playing!


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## pianozach (May 21, 2018)

Luchesi said:


> Maybe you were a "destructive influence" in his class, at least in his opinion. Can you remember that far back? Were you bored?
> He was probably just a frustrated, unhappy person. The principals should look in on these classrooms to see how outlandishly they're run.


Funny. No, I was not a disruptive sort of kid, especially in 6th grade. In fact, I was probably more musically inclined than most of the class.

Rather, it's likely that as a multi-instrumentalist he wasn't nearly as patient with kids as he should have been.


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