# Discussion thread for TC Top Recommended Pre-1700 Works



## Nereffid

There seems to be enough agreement that a pre-1700 list is a good idea, and since there were no objections I'll be hosting the project.

But before we dive in, we need to have a proper discussion of the music. Several posters who want to participate have said they don't know much of this music, and I've suggested that it might be a good idea to produce some sort of long list of suggested works before we start on the official nominating and voting. The list would serve not only to inform beginners about where they might direct their listening, but also remind everyone of works they might have forgotten about.

As to how thorough and definitive this list should be, we can discuss that too. On the one hand, we could thrash out a serious master list from which all nominations should be drawn, or we could produce a fairly generalised list of pointers. 
The reason for considering such options is what I call the Mass Problem: there were a _lot_ of mass settings in the 15th and 16th centuries, and any one of us will only have heard a small fraction of them, and for reasons that are probably just circumstantial - those are the recordings we happen to have heard. It's feasible that 10 participants could each nominate a different Josquin mass because they love it but haven't heard any of the others. So at some point we'll have to come to agreement on these sorts of issues.

That's assuming, of course, that we even _want_ the finished product to be a comprehensive guide to pre-1700 music. I know some of us are not so hung up on that, and that "a list of stuff we like" is enough.

Anyway, my suggestion is that we each have a think about what works we'd expect to find on the finished list, and discuss those ideas here.

The second main issue to discuss is the format of the voting.

I'm in favour of the "standard" system of a nomination round followed by a voting round involving the top 10 nominations, but if anyone has another suggestion I'm open to it. _But not the system used for the Post-1950s list!_
One change I'd like to make is that although nominations would be done as before - list the works in order of preference - when I'm determining the top 10 I'd first go by _number of nominations_ and only use the scores produced by order of preference to settle ties. The simple reason for this is that it offers greater rewards to consensus rather than individual enthusiasms; in practical terms I don't think it will have much effect.


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## SimonNZ

A reminder of what's out there might be useful, but I wouldn't like to get too hung up on a pre-list before we start - and certainly not a "master list" to draw from, I for one intend to keep turning over rocks however long it lasts. As with the SQ project many will be checking out each others nominations if unfamiliar as the project goes on, and consolidating or not. Likewise with the Josquin mentioned above, reconsideration based on others recommendations usually leads naturally to a preference emerging - I doubt people would stick with voting ten different ways. The process will take care of that as it goes along, its part of assessing how strongly you really do feel about this work or that.

One of my concerns at the outset might be over the preference I would have for something like Dowland's "Flow My Tears" being nominated as the larger collection it comes from - in this case the Second Booke. Another might be over larger miscellaneous but recognised collections, ones that are often recorded as a collection or as the manuscript groups them, such as the Eton Choirbook or My Ladye Nevills Booke (I'm for it). 

I'm also for setting a start date so we don't get bogged down in hair splitting...a week from now? Less?


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## Nereffid

SimonNZ said:


> One of my concerns at the outset might be over the preference I would have for something like Dowland's "Flow My Tears" being nominated as the larger collection it comes from - in this case the Second Booke. Another might be over larger miscellaneous but recognised collections, ones that are often recorded as a collection or as the manuscript groups them, such as the Eton Choirbook or My Ladye Nevills Booke (I'm for it).


Probably the best thing is to take each one as it comes. To me it's obvious that Dowland's books of songs would be much more appropriate than the individual entries; with the Eton Choirbook I could be persuaded either way. For someone like Palestrina, individual works (e.g. Missa Papae Marcelli) make more sense than the publications they're found in.



> I'm also for setting a start date so we don't get bogged down in hair splitting...a week from now? Less?


Depends how much interest there is in discussion or putting together a list of pointers.


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## D Smith

I'll be happy to participate as long as it follows the general format of the String Quartet list which proved workable over the long run. I certainly don't claim any encyclopedic knowledge of this very broad period, so "a list of stuff I like" is how I would be approaching it.


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## GreenMamba

Not sure how this is working, but here are a few I'd suggest:

Ockeghem: Missa prolationum (15c)
Gesualdo: Madrigals, books 4 or 5 especially (each book treated as a separate work?)
Monteverdi: L'Orfeo (1607)
Allegri: Miserere (1630s)
Machaut: "Puis qu'en oubli" (14c). But this is just one song, but maybe that's not a bad thing to rec smaller bits. 

I suppose the first question is, do others want to make a case for other works by these same composers? Maybe that's how we deal with it, hashing out what should be pushed by each composers (rather than just assenting to whatever is first nominated).


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## GreenMamba

Nereffid said:


> Probably the best thing is to take each one as it comes. To me it's obvious that Dowland's books of songs would be much more appropriate than the individual entries


Not sure if I agree. From the standpoint of people using the list for recommendations, people might appreciate just being pointed to one song, however short. We can't break eveythin down into small bits, but sometimes it might help.

Compared to other projects, we may have to make adjustments in acknowledgment that people will be far less familiar with these pieces.


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## GioCar

I like very much this project, and I definitely prefer the String Quartet voting format as well.

My only concern is putting the timeframe to the pre-1700 years. This is more ore less half way in the Baroque period. This means that, for example, Lully would be in, but Rameau would be out. Many Corelli's works are in but Vivaldi's out. Purcell in, Handel out. Buxtehude in, Bach out. And so on.
If the scope of the project is (as I think) to make a list of the preferred works over one (or more) music era, maybe it would be better to postpone the date so that all Baroque is included (1750?) or to anticipate it to 1650 (or even 1600) and consider all Medieval/Renaissance works only.


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## Nereffid

GreenMamba said:


> Not sure how this is working, but here are a few I'd suggest:
> 
> Ockeghem: Missa prolationum (15c)
> Gesualdo: Madrigals, books 4 or 5 especially (each book treated as a separate work?)
> Monteverdi: L'Orfeo (1607)
> Allegri: Miserere (1630s)
> Machaut: "Puis qu'en oubli" (14c). But this is just one song, but maybe that's not a bad thing to rec smaller bits.
> 
> I suppose the first question is, do others want to make a case for other works by these same composers? Maybe that's how we deal with it, hashing out what should be pushed by each composers (rather than just assenting to whatever is first nominated).


The Machaut's an interesting example too, because it's part of "Le Voir Dit", so a case could be made that the entire set of songs should be treated as one work.
But my general concern, whether it's Josquin masses or Machaut songs or whatever, is indeed that there's a good discussion of what should be favoured. Thinking about it a bit further, perhaps the best place for such discussions isn't here, but during the nomination round. We'll see what everyone's nominating, and we can address these situations as they arise. As moderator perhaps I might call for a discussion between rounds, or even suggest that participants might change their votes if a consensus is achievable...
That said, I encourage everyone to start throwing suggestions in now, so we can clear up any obvious or easily solvable difficulties.


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## Guest

I will gladly participate, but I won't be much help in this list. Like any newborn classicophile, I have a decent base in the high baroque, classical, romantic, etc kind of stuff, but these days I rarely explore anything pre-Debussy. I can certainly offer some consensus votes, at least in the first few rounds.

Also, I would suggest that those unsure about a good work to vote for per composer take a look at the work list in the Classical Music Project for some starting suggestions. I believe Ockeghem, for instance, has his Missa Prolationum, his requiem mass, and Deo Gratias up there?


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## Ariasexta

I feel awkward to ignore early and middle 18th century, one of the most splendid musical ages. Baroque music without 18th century is like Mona Lisa without hair. 

I will reply with consideration of 18th century, if you read my advice here, consider pre-1770. 

Recommendation:

For beginners:

1-C.P.E Bach organ concertos.(18th century)
2-Handels concertos.(18th century)
3-Terpsichore(17th century)
4-Selva Morale(17th century)

Some consider JS Bach as entry baroque, but in fact, JS Bach is rather of specialized tastes. Handel and CPE Bach is more ready for casual ears without dwarfing down on the original baroque tastes. Same goes for Terpsichore and Selva Morale, I need not to mention the composer, just try tem out, get involved without feeling like doing homework.


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## Guest

Ariasexta said:


> I feel awkward to ignore early and middle 18th century, one of the most splendid musical ages. Baroque music without 18th century is like Mona Lisa without hair.
> 
> I will reply with consideration of 18th century, if you read my advice here, consider pre-1770.
> 
> Recommendation:
> 
> For beginners:
> 
> 1-C.P.E Bach organ concertos.(18th century)
> 2-Handels concertos.(18th century)
> 3-Terpsichord(17th century)
> 4-Selva Morale(17th century)
> 
> Some consider JS Bach as entry baroque, but in fact, JS Bach is rather of specialized tastes. Handel and CPE Bach is more ready for casual ears without dwarfing down on the original baroque tastes. Same goes for Terpsichord and Selva Morale, I need not to mention the composer, just try tem out, get involved without feeling like doing homework.


I think the entire point was to exclude the high baroque and on...


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## Nereffid

GioCar said:


> My only concern is putting the timeframe to the pre-1700 years. This is more ore less half way in the Baroque period. This means that, for example, Lully would be in, but Rameau would be out. Many Corelli's works are in but Vivaldi's out. Purcell in, Handel out. Buxtehude in, Bach out. And so on.
> If the scope of the project is (as I think) to make a list of the preferred works over one (or more) music era, maybe it would be better to postpone the date so that all Baroque is included (1750?) or to anticipate it to 1650 (or even 1600) and consider all Medieval/Renaissance works only.


I think the rationale was that 1700 is quite a neat cutoff point because with a few exceptions (Monteverdi and Purcell), 17th-century composers tend not to show up in any other TC list. A good "genre" case could be made for cutoffs of 1600, 1650, or 1750. But the first two still leave a lot of music in "TC list limbo", while the third would mean Bach _yet again_.

I intend to have the finished list in chronological order too.


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## Nereffid

nathanb said:


> Also, I would suggest that those unsure about a good work to vote for per composer take a look at the work list in the Classical Music Project for some starting suggestions. I believe Ockeghem, for instance, has his Missa Prolationum, his requiem mass, and Deo Gratias up there?


Good idea.

Also, once you know who the "big names" are, ArkivMusic can be handy to see what works have merited multiple recordings.


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## Ariasexta

nathanb said:


> I think the entire point was to exclude the high baroque and on...


I am not falling into the common JS Bach trap, I adviced against JS Bach. We all know the result is forseeable, my Terpsichore and Selva Morale will be left out, famous missas and madrigals will be in, and people will still be replaying the anthology records, skipping the tracks on discs to these works. For beginners, Machaut is way off the topic, myself took several years getting ready for medieval music, even though specializing in early music. Terpsichore is everything to get started with about 17th century, I recommended medieval disc on another thread because there are pieces from Terpsichore in between.


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## Guest

Ariasexta said:


> I am not falling into the common JS Bach trap, I adviced against JS Bach. We all know the result is forseeable, my Terpsichore and Selva Morale will be left out, famous missas and madrigals will be in, and people will still be replaying the anthology records, skipping the tracks on discs to these works. For beginners, Machaut is way off the topic, myself took several years getting ready for medieval music, even though specializing in early music. Terpsichore is everything to get started with about 17th century, I recommended medieval disc on another thread because there are pieces from Terpsichore in between.


Not sure what you're getting at. At all.


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## Ariasexta

Nereffid said:


> Good idea.
> 
> Also, once you know who the "big names" are, ArkivMusic can be handy to see what works have merited multiple recordings.


Famous works do not always get you a good start with. Letting off 18th century still get trapped within the famous works.


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## Ariasexta

nathanb said:


> Not sure what you're getting at. At all.


I am foretelling the result.


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## GreenMamba

Nereffid said:


> But my general concern, whether it's Josquin masses or Machaut songs or whatever, is indeed that there's a good discussion of what should be favoured. Thinking about it a bit further, perhaps the best place for such discussions isn't here, but during the nomination round. We'll see what everyone's nominating, and we can address these situations as they arise. As moderator perhaps I might call for a discussion between rounds, or even suggest that participants might change their votes if a consensus is achievable...
> That said, I encourage everyone to start throwing suggestions in now, so we can clear up any obvious or easily solvable difficulties.


My concern would be that the nominations would be treated as set, and we'd just be arguing over the ordering (notwithstanding your comments about the moderator's role). Will people really change their votes?

One problem I have with the system is, once we get past the top 20 or so, I don't give a damn abour ordering. The opera project spends about half its time deciding which work is #122 and which is #124. Who cares? I'd rather have a larger pack of nominations, maybe fewer votes for each one, but not every nom being enshrined (at least not yet). So the second vote isn't just about ordering.


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## GreenMamba

Ariasexta said:


> I am foretelling the result.


If we permit 18th century works, the list will dominated by JS Bach.

Whether it should be or not isn't the issue. It will be. We've done enough of these projects to know.


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## Guest

Ariasexta said:


> I am foretelling the result.


"Terpsichore" and "Selva Morale" are well-liked works here, I reckon. In fact, I would say they both have a good chance of making the cut, as long as the cutoff is at 1700. Now... if it's pushed to 1750, then the high baroque masters will push those works out in a heartbeat, so I'm not sure why you're advocating that.


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## Guest

GreenMamba said:


> My concern would be that the nominations would be treated as set, and we'd just be arguing over the ordering (notwithstanding your comments about the moderator's role). Will people really change their votes?
> 
> One problem I have with the system is, once we get past the top 20 or so, I don't give a damn abour ordering. The opera project spends about half its time deciding which work is #122 and which is #124. Who cares? I'd rather have a larger pack of nominations, maybe fewer votes for each one, but not every nom being enshrined (at least not yet). So the second vote isn't just about ordering.


I've always thought that the voting round was a nice add-on, but clearly the lesser of the two rounds... so I've always kinda thought it would be nice to just make the voting rounds 24 hours or so. Since it's not going to affect which names make the list if you miss it and all.


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## Nereffid

Ariasexta said:


> Famous works do not always get you a good start with. Letting off 18th century still get trapped within the famous works.


Seeing as you haven't posted much on TC, I'm not sure how familiar you are with the TC lists. Though I hope that the finished list will provide a good overview of pre-1700 music that would be of use to the beginner, really the general aim of the lists is simply for us to come together and find out which music we like. If the "famous" works get voted for first, well, that might be expected.

Mind you, when it comes to a relatively obscure body of music, "famous" is a relative term, and moreover we all have different perspectives on which works actually are famous. Myself, I'd have said both Terpsichore and Selva morale are obvious choices for the list (somewhere on it, at any rate), but we'll just have to wait and see.

Don't be pessimistic! Everyone's participation is welcome, particularly those who can share their knowledge and enthusiasm. Like all voting processes, your vote might prove decisive.


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## D Smith

I think the cutoff should be left where it is. As Nereffid pointed out the point of this project was to give other composers "equal time' and not be steamrolled by Bach, Vivaldi et al. Even where there is some overlap, I would not vote for the later 'establishment composers' so as to let this list be more middle Baroque and before.


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## Nereffid

GreenMamba said:


> One problem I have with the system is, once we get past the top 20 or so, I don't give a damn abour ordering. The opera project spends about half its time deciding which work is #122 and which is #124. Who cares? I'd rather have a larger pack of nominations, maybe fewer votes for each one, but not every nom being enshrined (at least not yet). So the second vote isn't just about ordering.


I'm glad you brought this up!
Seeing as I've been quite negative on some previous projects as regards the voting systems, I didn't want to kick off here with demands that we do everything my way, which is why I wanted to stick with the tried-and-tested method.
But I agree, the nomination/voting process does become less useful as time goes on. I'm not quite sure what you're proposing though. Would it be something like: The nomination round produces a list of 20 works, and then the voting round whittles it down to 10?


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## Ariasexta

GreenMamba said:


> If we permit 18th century works, the list will dominated by JS Bach.
> 
> Whether it should be or not isn't the issue. It will be. We've done enough of these projects to know.


OP or participants can decide after trying out the nominations.


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## GreenMamba

Nereffid said:


> I'm glad you brought this up!
> Seeing as I've been quite negative on some previous projects as regards the voting systems, I didn't want to kick off here with demands that we do everything my way, which is why I wanted to stick with the tried-and-tested method.
> But I agree, the nomination/voting process does become less useful as time goes on. I'm not quite sure what you're proposing though. Would it be something like: The nomination round produces a list of 20 works, and then the voting round whittles it down to 10?


Yes, something like that. In particular, if there isn't much consensus on the nominations (and I don't think there will be unless we pre-discuss the hell out of them), then you could get a situation where works get in with little support. You could even set a minimum # of votes/points so it isn't necessarily 10 to get in.


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## Ariasexta

Nereffid said:


> Seeing as you haven't posted much on TC, I'm not sure how familiar you are with the TC lists. Though I hope that the finished list will provide a good overview of pre-1700 music that would be of use to the beginner, really the general aim of the lists is simply for us to come together and find out which music we like. If the "famous" works get voted for first, well, that might be expected.
> 
> Mind you, when it comes to a relatively obscure body of music, "famous" is a relative term, and moreover we all have different perspectives on which works actually are famous. Myself, I'd have said both Terpsichore and Selva morale are obvious choices for the list (somewhere on it, at any rate), but we'll just have to wait and see.
> 
> Don't be pessimistic! Everyone's participation is welcome, particularly those who can share their knowledge and enthusiasm. Like all voting processes, your vote might prove decisive.


17th century is dotted with many minor but excellent composers. Method proposed by you can be used for discussion about works of a composer. Maybe you can do this: to devide the nomination into 2 parts: 1-nomination of works; 2-nomination of composers, under 2 groups of nominations, organize voting, maybe after trying out(listen to) the nominations before voting. 2 parts of nomination should be done at the same time, and counted/recorded separately.

Thus, you can get best works from the famous composers, also can discover the best pieces from any (both famous or minor) composers works.


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## Ariasexta

nathanb said:


> "Terpsichore" and "Selva Morale" are well-liked works here, I reckon. In fact, I would say they both have a good chance of making the cut, as long as the cutoff is at 1700. Now... if it's pushed to 1750, then the high baroque masters will push those works out in a heartbeat, so I'm not sure why you're advocating that.


Not necessarily edging out the 17th century composers if the discussion goes on about works not composer. I was lost about nominating works of 17th century music since myself took quite a time to get used to most of them.


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## Guest

D Smith said:


> I think the cutoff should be left where it is. As Nereffid pointed out the point of this project was to give other composers "equal time' and not be steamrolled by Bach, Vivaldi et al. Even where there is some overlap, I would not vote for the later 'establishment composers' so as to let this list be more middle Baroque and before.


I'm glad you guys understand the point of the cutoff in this one  It makes me feel like you've now silently forgiven me for having the same feelings about a cutoff in the 1950+ project that allowed so much Shostakovich in. It had nothing to do with me disliking Shostakovich (considering I like him). It had everything to do with "YAWN. Been there with several lists already."


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## mmsbls

I understand people caring much less about the actual position of a work. I think we all don't care too much. But I would argue that the voting round is useful as another chance for people to listen to works. Most of us will have many works that we either haven't heard or perhaps have heard once. A huge part of these games for me is listening to new or almost new works. If voting rounds are eliminated ro shortened, there is less time to listen.


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## Mahlerian

I understand the point of a cutoff at 1700 as being representative of everything prior to the mainstream repertoire, but I'd be much more comfortable with a strictly Renaissance and Medieval game that excluded Monteverdi, Frescobaldi, Corelli, and so forth.


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## D Smith

mmsbls said:


> I understand people caring much less about the actual position of a work. I think we all don't care too much. But I would argue that the voting round is useful as another chance for people to listen to works. Most of us will have many works that we either haven't heard or perhaps have heard once. A huge part of these games for me is listening to new or almost new works. If voting rounds are eliminated ro shortened, there is less time to listen.


This is an excellent point. During the String Quartet process, as we got further into it, I knew fewer of the works nominated so used the voting round to listen to them, many for the first time. I often didn't vote on all of them as I didn't care for some, but at least I listened once!


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## GreenMamba

nathanb said:


> I'm glad you guys understand the point of the cutoff in this one  It makes me feel like you've now silently forgiven me for having the same feelings about a cutoff in the 1950+ project that allowed so much Shostakovich in. It had nothing to do with me disliking Shostakovich (considering I like him). It had everything to do with "YAWN. Been there with several lists already."


Well, 1975 would have excluded Shostakovich but also many others. I think the lesson is, don't select 1750 as the cutoff and then expect people not to vote for JS Bach. Btw, 1700 puts Pachelbel's Canon in play. So be it.

Mahlerian's suggestion is interesting. Would pre-1700 be dominated by Monteverdi, Corelli, etc. at the expense of the older guys? Should we do a shorter list from a narrower time period? I'm not necessarily saying yes, unless we came back and did early baroque later.


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## Ariasexta

Mahlerian said:


> I understand the point of a cutoff at 1700 as being representative of everything prior to the mainstream repertoire, but I'd be much more comfortable with a strictly Renaissance and Medieval game that excluded Monteverdi, Frescobaldi, Corelli, and so forth.


I think the OP had the good intention to intrigue people to early music. Maybe by common denomination of baroque can be easier for people to get used to:1600-1750(generally)/900-1770(for me)/, more will participate. I do not know if such setting by OP would scare off some or not. I am still trying to attract more attention to the this period, basically I am happy with this thread, just it could be better.


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## science

How about pre-1650 which would eliminate most of the Baroque guys?


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## Nereffid

We seem to be regressing away from the point at this stage; it seemed fairly clear when I started this thread that pre-1700 was a popular choice, but the voices of dissent are only now emerging.

Again, this comes back to _why are we doing this list in the first place?_
I'm inclined to think that if 17th-century composers dominate the list, that's because we, collectively, want them to. It would be a feature, not a bug.
But I note that participants so far haven't followed my request to make suggestions for what could be on the list. So the reality is we don't know whether the 17th century will dominate. My own guess is that, Monteverdi aside, it won't.

*Let's put this to a snap vote.
Three options for a cut-off: 1600, 1650, 1700. Put them in your preferred order.
*
(The outcome of the vote won't be binding if it's close! But we need to see what the mood is.)

My vote: 1700, 1650, 1600.


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## TurnaboutVox

My vote also: 1700, 1650, 1600.


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## SimonNZ

TurnaboutVox said:


> My vote also: 1700, 1650, 1600.


Me too, I guess.

Purcell is probably the one most likely to really _heavily_ benefit from 1700 over 1650, so whatever.


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## GioCar

Mahlerian said:


> I understand the point of a cutoff at 1700 as being representative of everything prior to the mainstream repertoire, but I'd be much more comfortable with a strictly Renaissance and Medieval game that excluded Monteverdi, Frescobaldi, Corelli, and so forth.


If we live the cut-off at 1700, the risk to have an unbalanced list toward the Baroque 17th-century works is quite high imo.
Surely they are more popular and closer to the 21st-century listener sensibility than the earlier works. I'd be more comfortable with a strictly Renaissance/Medieval project as well, so my vote is 1600, 1650, 1700.

Edit: on the contrary, there is a higher risk of having a much smaller number of participants...


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## science

I'm actually fine with the early Baroque being on this list. It's not like Frescobaldi is all that popular. At 1700 we've eliminated Bach, Handel, and Vivaldi, so the really big beasts of the Baroque won't be on the list.

So my vote is 1700, 1650, 1600 with the idea that we just accept the early Baroque being on there.


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## D Smith

My vote: 1700, 1650, 1600


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## D Smith

Nereffid said:


> But I note that participants so far haven't followed my request to make suggestions for what could be on the list. So the reality is we don't know whether the 17th century will dominate. My own guess is that, Monteverdi aside, it won't.


Since you asked...

Here's a quick sample of the types of works I'd be nominating.

Obrecht: Missa Caput
Josquin: Missa Pange lingua
Tallis: Spem in alum
Byrd: Mass for 4 voices
Lobo: Requiem for 6 voices
Monteverdi: Vespers
Gibbons: Fantasia a 6


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## Mahlerian

1600, 1650, 1700 for me personally, although I'd be happier with either of those first two than the latter.


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## mmsbls

My vote:

1700 1650 1600

It's possible that works after 1650 will dominate, but unless we only go t0 50, I think there will be plenty of earlier works.


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## Richannes Wrahms

1600, 1650, 1700

Couldn't we just make two lists (one for the 17th century alone) to be voted in the same thread by the same rules.

Some not particularly surprising massive suggestions:

Machaut: La Messe de Nostre Dame
Ockeghem: Missa Prolationum, Requiem, Missa Caput, Missa Mi-mi
Josquin: Missa Ave Maris Stella, Missa Hercules Dux Ferrariae, Missa Pange Lingua


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## Nereffid

Richannes Wrahms said:


> Couldn't we just make two lists (one for the 17th century alone) to be voted in the same thread by the same rules.


"We" translates as "Nereffid" here, so no. 

My interpretation of the discussion so far is that (a) a 1700 cutoff is more popular, and (b) those who've given an indication of what they'll be nominating have mostly mentioned pre-1600 works anyway.
I think the awareness that there might be a problem could be sufficient to make it less of a problem.

*So I'm going with the 1700 cutoff.*


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## Headphone Hermit

1650, 1600 .............. way down the list >>>>> ................... 1700


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## Nereffid

This is, I think, all the discussion in this thread of the nomination/voting process:



Nereffid said:


> One change I'd like to make is that although nominations would be done as before - list the works in order of preference - when I'm determining the top 10 I'd first go by _number of nominations_ and only use the scores produced by order of preference to settle ties. The simple reason for this is that it offers greater rewards to consensus rather than individual enthusiasms; in practical terms I don't think it will have much effect.





GreenMamba said:


> One problem I have with the system is, once we get past the top 20 or so, I don't give a damn abour ordering. The opera project spends about half its time deciding which work is #122 and which is #124. Who cares? I'd rather have a larger pack of nominations, maybe fewer votes for each one, but not every nom being enshrined (at least not yet). So the second vote isn't just about ordering.





nathanb said:


> I've always thought that the voting round was a nice add-on, but clearly the lesser of the two rounds... so I've always kinda thought it would be nice to just make the voting rounds 24 hours or so. Since it's not going to affect which names make the list if you miss it and all.





Nereffid said:


> I agree, the nomination/voting process does become less useful as time goes on. I'm not quite sure what you're [GreenMamba] proposing though. Would it be something like: The nomination round produces a list of 20 works, and then the voting round whittles it down to 10?





GreenMamba said:


> Yes, something like that. In particular, if there isn't much consensus on the nominations (and I don't think there will be unless we pre-discuss the hell out of them), then you could get a situation where works get in with little support. You could even set a minimum # of votes/points so it isn't necessarily 10 to get in.





mmsbls said:


> I understand people caring much less about the actual position of a work. I think we all don't care too much. But I would argue that the voting round is useful as another chance for people to listen to works. Most of us will have many works that we either haven't heard or perhaps have heard once. A huge part of these games for me is listening to new or almost new works. If voting rounds are eliminated ro shortened, there is less time to listen.





D Smith said:


> This is an excellent point. During the String Quartet process, as we got further into it, I knew fewer of the works nominated so used the voting round to listen to them, many for the first time. I often didn't vote on all of them as I didn't care for some, but at least I listened once!


So here's my proposal for a change that accomodates both those who like the voting round as a means of aiding listening, and those who don't care about voting order.

Nomination round: we nominate as before, in order of preference, but we nominate 15 works rather than 10. The 15 top works (ie, the most-nominated, with the points associated with order-of-preference being used as a tie-breaker) go forward to the voting round. 
Voting round: we name our top 10 of those 15. The 10 top works get enshrined, and the others go back in the pot and will need to be nominated again.

The point of this change is that it makes the voting round more relevant to the final outcome: a work not only has to get enough nominations, but it then has to get enough wider support to be enshrined. So voting order will matter.
Expanding the nominations to 15 from the very start is a means of addressing the possibility that there might not be much consensus - other projects have gone from 10 to 20 nominations in the later stages.


----------



## sabrina

I browsed Wikipedia list with pre 1700 composers, and I almost fell asleep as the list is quite long and I only know very few cases, like Caccini, Monteverdi, Lully, Pachelbel, Purcel, Scarlatti...too few and even for these I can't say I know them as well as I know Mozart or Beethoven.
But I love Caccini's Ave Maria!


----------



## mmsbls

This thread hit a snag. I think Nereffid wanted us to post suggested works so people could start to think about them and listen to ones they are unfamiliar with. Also I think maybe Nereffid wanted us to comment on his nominating and voting suggestions. 

I am perfectly happy with the suggested processes in the nomination round and voting round.

If this thread starts up again, perhaps people can 1) comment on Nereffid's suggested processes and 2) start suggesting more pre-1700 works.


----------



## SimonNZ

I'm happy with the voting process, but don't feel we especially need a pre-game suggestion list. Better to get the ball rolling and deal with the line-calls if and when they arise.


----------



## Nereffid

SimonNZ said:


> I'm happy with the voting process, but don't feel we especially need a pre-game suggestion list. Better to get the ball rolling and deal with the line-calls if and when they arise.


Well, there certainly doesn't seem to be much appetite for the sort of thorough discussion I'd envisaged, so I'm OK to do without it.
Do we want to start off this project within the next few days, or should we wait until the opera list has run its course?

Meanwhile, I'll just add a list of ideas I produced a few weeks ago. This was from a quick skim through my own collection, without much thought. Stuff I would vote for and/or expect to see on the list. Maybe a few things there that others might say "oh, I'd forgotten about that" or pointers for other works or composers.

Alfonso X: Cantigas de Santa Maria
Anonymous: Agincourt Carol
Anonymous: Carmina Burana
Anonymous: Le manuscrit du Roi
Anonymous: Montpellier Codex
Anonymous: MS Add. 29987
Anonymous: Sumer is icumen in
Bach, J Christoph: Lamento
Bernart de Ventadorn: Can vei la lauzeta mover
Biber: Mystery Sonatas
Biber: Sonatae Violino solo 1681
Buxtehude: Membra Jesu Nostri
Byrd: Mass for 4 Voices
Charpentier: Te Deum
Dowland: Lachrimae
Dufay: Nuper rosarum flores
Dunstable: Quam pulchra es
Gabrieli: Sacrae symphoniae
Hildegard von Bingen: Ave generosa
Isaac: Innsbruck, ich muss dich lassen 
Janequin: La Guerre (La Bataille de Marignan)
Josquin: Ave Maria a 4
Josquin: Mille regretz
Josquin: Miserere mei
Josquin: Nymphes des bois
Lassus: Lagrime di San Pietro
Lully: Le Bourgeois Gentilhomme
Machaut: Messe de Nostre Dame
Merula: Hor ch'e tempo di morire
Milán: El Maestro
Monteverdi: L'Orfeo
Monteverdi: Madrigals book 8
Monteverdi: Vespers
Morales: Parce mihi Domine
Mouton: Nesciens Mater
Ockeghem: Intemerata Dei Mater
Ockeghem: Missa Cuiusvis Toni
Ockeghem: Missa pro defunctis
Ortiz: Trattado de glosas
Oswald von Wolkenstein: Durch Barbarei, Arabia
Palestrina: Missa Papae Marcelli
Palestrina: Stabat Mater
Pérotin: Sederunt principes
Playford: The English Dancing Master
Praetorius: Terpsichore
Purcell: Dido and Aeneas
Purcell: Funeral Music for Queen Mary
Scheidt: Ludi musici
Schein: Banchetto musicale
Schein: Fontana d'Israel
Schmelzer: Lamento sopra la morte Ferdinand III
Schütz: Cantiones sacrae
Solage: Fumeux fume par fumée
Striggio: Mass for 40 Voices
Susato: Dansereye
Tallis: Spem in alium
Taverner: Missa Gloria Tibi Trinitas
Victoria: Ave Maria a 8
Victoria: Missa pro defunctis


----------



## GreenMamba

Nereffid said:


> Meanwhile, I'll just add a list of ideas I produced a few weeks ago. This was from a quick skim through my own collection, without much thought. Stuff I would vote for and/or expect to see on the list. Maybe a few things there that others might say "oh, I'd forgotten about that" or pointers for other works or composers.


This was my concern, that works would make it to the top just because someone mentioned them first. But maybe it works itself out in the early rounds.

I don't know how close the opera thing is to ending. A little overlap isn't terrible.


----------



## Nereffid

The opera list is on its final round, so I think I'll start the pre-1700 list once that's finished... let's say around November 23rd.

Interested parties can start thinking about their first set of nominations - and if you haven't seen this thread already, it might be worth reading through it.


----------



## Nereffid

Thread revival!

I intend to launch a Pre-1700 project in early- to mid-February.

The format will be similar to that used in the recent opera and string quartet lists, with modifications as outlined above in post #48: everyone can nominate 15 works per round.


----------



## Kjetil Heggelund

Please have Marenzio on the list! And more Lassus, Prophitae Sibyllarum & Cantiones Sacrae for 6 (last book) f.ex. Also Frescobaldi, Froberger and more Byrd & Schütz


----------



## Nereffid

Nereffid said:


> So here's my proposal for a change that accomodates both those who like the voting round as a means of aiding listening, and those who don't care about voting order.
> 
> Nomination round: we nominate as before, in order of preference, but we nominate 15 works rather than 10. The 15 top works (ie, the most-nominated, with the points associated with order-of-preference being used as a tie-breaker) go forward to the voting round.
> Voting round: we name our top 10 of those 15. The 10 top works get enshrined, and the others go back in the pot and will need to be nominated again.
> 
> The point of this change is that it makes the voting round more relevant to the final outcome: a work not only has to get enough nominations, but it then has to get enough wider support to be enshrined. So voting order will matter.
> Expanding the nominations to 15 from the very start is a means of addressing the possibility that there might not be much consensus - other projects have gone from 10 to 20 nominations in the later stages.


Further thinking on this:

A simpler nomination process - we each just nominate (up to) 15 works, _in no order_.

The works with the most nominations then go forward to the voting round. This would mean the number of works in the voting round _would not be the same each time_. The purpose of the voting round is to enshrine 10 works, and the number of works being voted on could be anything from, say, 13 to 20, depending on how the numbers of nominations go.

Example - there might be 9 works that have 7 or more nominations, and another 5 works with 6 nominations - so the voting round would involve 14 works. Or there might be 11 works with 7 or more nominations, 2 with 6, and 5 with 5; in this case the game moderator could go with 11, 13, or 18.

My reasoning for such an approach is that (as remarked on above) some people don't find the voting round as interesting, because most of the work is already done in the nomination round. These changes would mean the nomination round is less complicated and less decisive, while the voting round is more interesting and makes a significant contribution to the makeup of the final enshrined list.


----------



## science

A few to add to Nerrefid's list: 

Alfonso X: Cantigas de Santa Maria
Allegri: Miserere
Allegri: Missa Che fa oggi il mio sole
Anonymous: Agincourt Carol
Anonymous: Carmina Burana
Anonymous: Le manuscrit du Roi
Anonymous: Tournai Mass 
Anonymous: Montpellier Codex
Anonymous: MS Add. 29987
Anonymous: Sumer is icumen in
Bach, J Christoph: Lamento
Bernart de Ventadorn: Can vei la lauzeta mover
Biber: Mystery Sonatas
Biber: Sonatae Violino solo 1681
Blow: Venus and Adonis
Browne: Stabat mater 
Brumel: Missa de beata virgine
Brumel: Missa Et ecce terrae motus
Busnois: Missa O Crux lingam 
Buxtehude: Membra Jesu Nostri
Byrd: Ave verum corpus 
Byrd: Great Service.
Byrd: Mass for 3 voices. 
Byrd: Mass for 4 voices. 
Byrd: Mass for 5 Voices
Caccini: Le nuove musiche
Caccini: L'Eurydice 
Cavalli: Giasone 
Charpentier: La descente d'Orphée aux enfers 
Charpentier: Te Deum
Clemens non Papa: Missa Pastores quidnam vidistis 
Clemens non Papa: Requiem 
Cornysh: Ah Robyn, Gentle Robyn 
Cornysh: Ave maria 
Cornysh: Salve regina 
Crecquillon: Missa Mort m'a privé
Domarto: Missa Spiritus almus
Dowland: Lachrimae
Dufay: Missa Se lay face ay pale
Dufay: Nuper rosarum flores
Dunstable: Quam pulchra es
Fayrfax: Magnificat 
Gabrieli: Sacrae symphoniae
Galli: Missa Ascendetis post filium
Gesualdo: Madrigals, book 4
Gesualdo: Madrigals, book 5
Gesualdo: Tenebrae Responsoria 
Gombert: Credo a 8
Gombert: Magnificats 
Guerrero: Missa de la batalla escoutez
Handl-Gallus: Mirabile mysterium 
Hildegard von Bingen: Ave generosa
Hildegard von Bingen: O Euchari 
Hildegard von Bingen: O Jerusalem (O Ierusalem) 
Hildegard von Bingen: Ordo virtutum 
Isaac: Innsbruck, ich muss dich lassen 
Janequin: La Guerre (La Bataille de Marignan)
Josquin: Ave Maria a 4
Josquin: Missa de Beata Virgine
Josquin: Missa Fortuna desperate 
Josquin: Missa Hercules Dux Ferrariae
Josquin: Missa L'homme armé super voces musicales
Josquin: Missa La sol fa re mi
Josquin: Missa Pange lingua
Josquin: Mille regretz
Josquin: Miserere mei
Josquin: Nymphes des bois
Lassus: Lagrime di San Pietro
Lassus: Missa pro defunctis
Lassus: Prophetiae Sibyllarum
Lassus: Psalmi Davidis poenitentiales
Leoninus: Magnus liber organi
Lully: Armide 
Lully: Le Bourgeois Gentilhomme
Luython: Missa Sex Vocum Super Filiae Jerusalem
Machaut: Lay de la fonteinne
Machaut: Messe de Nostre Dame
Manchicourt: Missa Cuidez vous que Dieu nous faille
Manchicourt: Missa Veni Sancte Spiritus
Merula: Hor ch'e tempo di morire
Milán: El Maestro
Monte: Missa Ultimi miei sospiri
Monteverdi: L'Orfeo
Monteverdi: Madrigals book 8
Monteverdi: Vespers
Morales: Parce mihi Domine
Morales: Requiem (Officium defunctorum)
Mouton: Missa Dictes moy toutes voz pensees
Mouton: Missa Tu es Petrus
Mouton: Nesciens Mater
Mundy: Vox Patris caelestis
Obrecht: Missa Caput
Ockeghem: Deo gratias
Ockeghem: Intemerata Dei Mater
Ockeghem: Missa Cuiusvis Toni
Ockeghem: Missa pro defunctis
Ockeghem: Missa prolationum
Ortiz: Trattado de glosas
Oswald von Wolkenstein: Durch Barbarei, Arabia
Palestrina: Litaniae de Beata Virgine Maria à 8
Palestrina: Missa Dum complerentur
Palestrina: Missa Papae Marcelli
Palestrina: Stabat Mater
Peri: Euridice 
Pérotin: Sederunt principes
Phinot: Missa Si bona suscepimus
Pierre De la Rue: Missa Cum iocunditate
Pipelare: Missa L'homme armé
Playford: The English Dancing Master
Power: Missa Alma redemptoris mater
Praetorius: Terpsichore
Purcell: Dido and Aeneas
Purcell: Funeral Music for Queen Mary
Rebelo: Vesper Psalms
Regnart: Missa Super oeniades nymphae
Richafort: Requiem 
Rore: Missa a note negre
Rore: Missa Doulce memoire
Scheidt: Ludi musici
Schein: Banchetto musicale
Schein: Fontana d'Israel
Schmelzer: Lamento sopra la morte Ferdinand III
Schütz: Cantiones sacrae
Schütz:Musikalische Exequien
Solage: Fumeux fume par fumée
Striggio: Ecce beatam lucem
Striggio: Mass for 40 Voices
Susato: Dansereye
Sutton: Salve Regina a 7
Tallis: Spem in alium
Taverner: Missa Gloria Tibi Trinitas
Taverner: "The Western Wind" Mass
Vaet: Missa Ego flos campi
Victoria: Ave Maria a 8
Victoria: Missa Ascendens Christus in altum
Victoria: Missa Ave maris stella
Victoria: Missa pro defunctis
Victoria: Missa O magnum mysteriosum 
Victoria: Missa O quam gloriosum 
Willaert: Missa Mente tota
Wylkynson: Salve Regina a 9

That's a few more anyway. I'll be back with more later.


----------



## GreenMamba

You have an interesting definition of the word "few," science. 

Hey, that could be our final list!

Edit: Ah, now I see that you only added a handful to the existing list.


----------



## DiesIraeCX

I _really_ hope this list is realized eventually. I'm sure I can speak for the majority of us when I say we're not very familiar with Medieval/Renaissance/pre-1700 music (Maybe I'm incorrect about that?). As much as people say that Modern/Contemporary composers aren't given the recognition they deserve, I think most of us know who Stravinsky, Webern, Berio, Boulez, Feldman, Ligeti, and Part are, and have heard quite of bit of their music. Their names are brought up every day, and very often ('Current Listening' being just one example).

Striggio, Obrecht, Lassus, well, not so much.

Even if I were to bring up the more 'familiar' names like Lully, Tallis, Ockeghem, Palestrina, Machaut, and Josquin; rarely is their music discussed in-depth or brought up as often as arguably any other era of art music (from Baroque to Modern to Contemporary). Rarely are threads dedicated to them, and when they are, does it even get past the first page?


----------



## science

GreenMamba said:


> You have an interesting definition of the word "few," science.
> 
> Hey, that could be our final list!


It started out as a few and then I added more a few times. However, that can't be our final list! There is so much more, and I'm not at all qualified to judge what belongs on this list.

For example, I'm just not sure what to do with composers like Landini or Agricola.


----------



## science

DiesIraeCX said:


> I _really_ hope this list is realized eventually. I'm sure I can speak for the majority of us when I say we're not very familiar with Medieval/Renaissance/pre-1700 music (Maybe I'm incorrect about that?). As much as people say that Modern/Contemporary composers aren't given the recognition they deserve, I think most of us know who Stravinsky, Webern, Berio, Boulez, Feldman, Ligeti, and Part are, and have heard quite of bit of their music. Their names are brought up every day, and very often ('Current Listening' being just one example).
> 
> Striggio, Obrecht, Lassus, well, not so much.
> 
> Even if I were to bring up the more 'familiar' names like Lully, Tallis, Ockeghem, Palestrina, Machaut, and Josquin; rarely is their music discussed in-depth or brought up as often as arguably any other era of art music (from Baroque to Modern to Contemporary). Rarely are threads dedicated to them, and when they are, does it even get past the first page?


This is a great point. Reflecting on it briefly, I find that I side with people who favored doing this project a bit on the slower side. I think most of us - definitely including myself - need time to do our homework before we vote.


----------



## science

I don't see any point in copying the list again just now, but I'll add: 

Pachelbel: Hexachordum Apollinis


----------



## DiesIraeCX

science said:


> I don't see any point in copying the list again just now, but I'll add:
> 
> Pachelbel: Hexachordum Apollinis





science said:


> A few to add to Nerrefid's list:
> 
> Alfonso X: Cantigas de Santa Maria
> Allegri: Miserere
> Allegri: Missa Che fa oggi il mio sole
> Anonymous: Agincourt Carol
> Anonymous: Carmina Burana
> Anonymous: Le manuscrit du Roi
> Anonymous: Tournai Mass
> Anonymous: Montpellier Codex
> Anonymous: MS Add. 29987
> Anonymous: Sumer is icumen in
> Bach, J Christoph: Lamento
> Bernart de Ventadorn: Can vei la lauzeta mover
> Biber: Mystery Sonatas
> Biber: Sonatae Violino solo 1681
> Blow: Venus and Adonis
> Browne: Stabat mater
> Brumel: Missa de beata virgine
> Brumel: Missa Et ecce terrae motus
> Busnois: Missa O Crux lingam
> Buxtehude: Membra Jesu Nostri
> Byrd: Ave verum corpus
> Byrd: Great Service.
> Byrd: Mass for 3 voices.
> Byrd: Mass for 4 voices.
> Byrd: Mass for 5 Voices
> Caccini: Le nuove musiche
> Caccini: L'Eurydice
> Cavalli: Giasone
> Charpentier: La descente d'Orphée aux enfers
> Charpentier: Te Deum
> Clemens non Papa: Missa Pastores quidnam vidistis
> Clemens non Papa: Requiem
> Cornysh: Ah Robyn, Gentle Robyn
> Cornysh: Ave maria
> Cornysh: Salve regina
> Crecquillon: Missa Mort m'a privé
> Domarto: Missa Spiritus almus
> Dowland: Lachrimae
> Dufay: Missa Se lay face ay pale
> Dufay: Nuper rosarum flores
> Dunstable: Quam pulchra es
> Fayrfax: Magnificat
> Gabrieli: Sacrae symphoniae
> Galli: Missa Ascendetis post filium
> Gesualdo: Madrigals, book 4
> Gesualdo: Madrigals, book 5
> Gesualdo: Tenebrae Responsoria
> Gombert: Credo a 8
> Gombert: Magnificats
> Guerrero: Missa de la batalla escoutez
> Handl-Gallus: Mirabile mysterium
> Hildegard von Bingen: Ave generosa
> Hildegard von Bingen: O Euchari
> Hildegard von Bingen: O Jerusalem (O Ierusalem)
> Hildegard von Bingen: Ordo virtutum
> Isaac: Innsbruck, ich muss dich lassen
> Janequin: La Guerre (La Bataille de Marignan)
> Josquin: Ave Maria a 4
> Josquin: Missa de Beata Virgine
> Josquin: Missa Fortuna desperate
> Josquin: Missa Hercules Dux Ferrariae
> Josquin: Missa L'homme armé super voces musicales
> Josquin: Missa La sol fa re mi
> Josquin: Missa Pange lingua
> Josquin: Mille regretz
> Josquin: Miserere mei
> Josquin: Nymphes des bois
> Lassus: Lagrime di San Pietro
> Lassus: Missa pro defunctis
> Lassus: Prophetiae Sibyllarum
> Lassus: Psalmi Davidis poenitentiales
> Leoninus: Magnus liber organi
> Lully: Armide
> Lully: Le Bourgeois Gentilhomme
> Luython: Missa Sex Vocum Super Filiae Jerusalem
> Machaut: Lay de la fonteinne
> Machaut: Messe de Nostre Dame
> Manchicourt: Missa Cuidez vous que Dieu nous faille
> Manchicourt: Missa Veni Sancte Spiritus
> Merula: Hor ch'e tempo di morire
> Milán: El Maestro
> Monte: Missa Ultimi miei sospiri
> Monteverdi: L'Orfeo
> Monteverdi: Madrigals book 8
> Monteverdi: Vespers
> Morales: Parce mihi Domine
> Morales: Requiem (Officium defunctorum)
> Mouton: Missa Dictes moy toutes voz pensees
> Mouton: Missa Tu es Petrus
> Mouton: Nesciens Mater
> Mundy: Vox Patris caelestis
> Obrecht: Missa Caput
> Ockeghem: Deo gratias
> Ockeghem: Intemerata Dei Mater
> Ockeghem: Missa Cuiusvis Toni
> Ockeghem: Missa pro defunctis
> Ockeghem: Missa prolationum
> Ortiz: Trattado de glosas
> Oswald von Wolkenstein: Durch Barbarei, Arabia
> Palestrina: Litaniae de Beata Virgine Maria à 8
> Palestrina: Missa Dum complerentur
> Palestrina: Missa Papae Marcelli
> Palestrina: Stabat Mater
> Peri: Euridice
> Pérotin: Sederunt principes
> Phinot: Missa Si bona suscepimus
> Pierre De la Rue: Missa Cum iocunditate
> Pipelare: Missa L'homme armé
> Playford: The English Dancing Master
> Power: Missa Alma redemptoris mater
> Praetorius: Terpsichore
> Purcell: Dido and Aeneas
> Purcell: Funeral Music for Queen Mary
> Rebelo: Vesper Psalms
> Regnart: Missa Super oeniades nymphae
> Richafort: Requiem
> Rore: Missa a note negre
> Rore: Missa Doulce memoire
> Scheidt: Ludi musici
> Schein: Banchetto musicale
> Schein: Fontana d'Israel
> Schmelzer: Lamento sopra la morte Ferdinand III
> Schütz: Cantiones sacrae
> Schütz:Musikalische Exequien
> Solage: Fumeux fume par fumée
> Striggio: Ecce beatam lucem
> Striggio: Mass for 40 Voices
> Susato: Dansereye
> Sutton: Salve Regina a 7
> Tallis: Spem in alium
> Taverner: Missa Gloria Tibi Trinitas
> Taverner: "The Western Wind" Mass
> Vaet: Missa Ego flos campi
> Victoria: Ave Maria a 8
> Victoria: Missa Ascendens Christus in altum
> Victoria: Missa Ave maris stella
> Victoria: Missa pro defunctis
> Victoria: Missa O magnum mysteriosum
> Victoria: Missa O quam gloriosum
> Willaert: Missa Mente tota
> Wylkynson: Salve Regina a 9
> 
> That's a few more anyway. I'll be back with more later.


I don't see why not! For those who are averse to going back a page or two. I'm pretty lazy myself sometimes.

Seeing lists like this often spark an interest to go exploring, on YouTube or Spotify, etc. Our very own TC-Top Recommended lists have helped me quite a bit in taking that first step. After that, one can go deeper into the more off-the-beaten-path works.


----------



## science

Ok, let's do it - adding some more Buxtehude, Joaquin, Taverner, Lassus, and Palestrina as well - and can anyone reach Clavichorder? He's the man for Renaissance keyboard music. 

Alfonso X: Cantigas de Santa Maria
Allegri: Miserere
Allegri: Missa Che fa oggi il mio sole
Anonymous: Agincourt Carol
Anonymous: Carmina Burana
Anonymous: Le manuscrit du Roi
Anonymous: Tournai Mass 
Anonymous: Montpellier Codex
Anonymous: MS Add. 29987
Anonymous: Sumer is icumen in
Bach, J Christoph: Lamento
Bernart de Ventadorn: Can vei la lauzeta mover
Biber: Mystery Sonatas
Biber: Sonatae Violino solo 1681
Blow: Venus and Adonis
Browne: Stabat mater 
Brumel: Missa de beata virgine
Brumel: Missa Et ecce terrae motus
Busnois: Missa O Crux lingam 
Buxtehude: Membra Jesu Nostri
Buxtehude: Trio Sonatas, opp. 1 & 2
Byrd: Ave verum corpus 
Byrd: Great Service.
Byrd: Mass for 3 voices. 
Byrd: Mass for 4 voices. 
Byrd: Mass for 5 Voices
Caccini: Le nuove musiche
Caccini: L'Eurydice 
Cavalli: Giasone 
Charpentier: La descente d'Orphée aux enfers 
Charpentier: Te Deum
Clemens non Papa: Missa Pastores quidnam vidistis 
Clemens non Papa: Requiem 
Cornysh: Ah Robyn, Gentle Robyn 
Cornysh: Ave maria 
Cornysh: Salve regina 
Crecquillon: Missa Mort m'a privé
Domarto: Missa Spiritus almus
Dowland: Lachrimae
Dufay: Missa Se lay face ay pale
Dufay: Nuper rosarum flores
Dunstable: Quam pulchra es
Fayrfax: Magnificat 
Gabrieli: Sacrae symphoniae
Galli: Missa Ascendetis post filium
Gesualdo: Madrigals, book 4
Gesualdo: Madrigals, book 5
Gesualdo: Tenebrae Responsoria 
Gombert: Credo a 8
Gombert: Magnificats 
Guerrero: Missa de la batalla escoutez
Handl-Gallus: Mirabile mysterium 
Hildegard von Bingen: Ave generosa
Hildegard von Bingen: O Euchari 
Hildegard von Bingen: O Jerusalem (O Ierusalem) 
Hildegard von Bingen: Ordo virtutum 
Isaac: Innsbruck, ich muss dich lassen 
Janequin: La Guerre (La Bataille de Marignan)
Josquin: Ave Maria a 4
Joaquin: Missa Ave maris stella 
Josquin: Missa de Beata Virgine
Josquin: Missa Fortuna desperate 
Josquin: Missa Hercules Dux Ferrariae
Josquin: Missa L'homme armé super voces musicales
Josquin: Missa La sol fa re mi
Josquin: Missa Pange lingua
Josquin: Mille regretz
Josquin: Miserere mei
Josquin: Nymphes des bois
Lassus: Lagrime di San Pietro
Lassus: Missa pro defunctis
Lassus: Missa super Dixit Joseph
Lassus: Prophetiae Sibyllarum
Lassus: Psalmi Davidis poenitentiales
Leoninus: Magnus liber organi
Lully: Armide 
Lully: Le Bourgeois Gentilhomme
Luython: Missa Sex Vocum Super Filiae Jerusalem
Machaut: Lay de la fonteinne
Machaut: Messe de Nostre Dame
Manchicourt: Missa Cuidez vous que Dieu nous faille
Manchicourt: Missa Veni Sancte Spiritus
Merula: Hor ch'e tempo di morire
Milán: El Maestro
Monte: Missa Ultimi miei sospiri
Monteverdi: L'Orfeo
Monteverdi: Madrigals book 8
Monteverdi: Vespers
Morales: Parce mihi Domine
Morales: Requiem (Officium defunctorum)
Mouton: Missa Dictes moy toutes voz pensees
Mouton: Missa Tu es Petrus
Mouton: Nesciens Mater
Mundy: Vox Patris caelestis
Obrecht: Missa Caput
Ockeghem: Deo gratias
Ockeghem: Intemerata Dei Mater
Ockeghem: Missa Cuiusvis Toni
Ockeghem: Missa pro defunctis
Ockeghem: Missa prolationum
Ortiz: Trattado de glosas
Oswald von Wolkenstein: Durch Barbarei, Arabia
Pachelbel: Hexachordum Apollinis
Palestrina: Litaniae de Beata Virgine Maria à 8
Palestrina: Missa Aeterna Christi munera
Palestrina: Missa Dum complerentur
Palestrina: Missa Papae Marcelli
Palestrina: Stabat Mater
Peri: Euridice 
Pérotin: Sederunt principes
Phinot: Missa Si bona suscepimus
Pierre De la Rue: Missa Cum iocunditate
Pipelare: Missa L'homme armé
Playford: The English Dancing Master
Power: Missa Alma redemptoris mater
Praetorius: Terpsichore
Purcell: Dido and Aeneas
Purcell: Funeral Music for Queen Mary
Rebelo: Vesper Psalms
Regnart: Missa Super oeniades nymphae
Richafort: Requiem 
Rore: Missa a note negre
Rore: Missa Doulce memoire
Scheidt: Ludi musici
Schein: Banchetto musicale
Schein: Fontana d'Israel
Schmelzer: Lamento sopra la morte Ferdinand III
Schütz: Cantiones sacrae
Schütz:Musikalische Exequien
Solage: Fumeux fume par fumée
Striggio: Ecce beatam lucem
Striggio: Mass for 40 Voices
Susato: Dansereye
Sutton: Salve Regina a 7
Tallis: Spem in alium
Taverner: Missa Corona spinea
Taverner: Missa Gloria Tibi Trinitas
Taverner: "The Western Wind" Mass
Vaet: Missa Ego flos campi
Victoria: Ave Maria a 8
Victoria: Missa Ascendens Christus in altum
Victoria: Missa Ave maris stella
Victoria: Missa pro defunctis
Victoria: Missa O magnum mysteriosum 
Victoria: Missa O quam gloriosum 
Willaert: Missa Mente tota
Wylkynson: Salve Regina a 9


----------



## science

I assume that everyone already knows everything that I know, and one thing that I know is that on amazon.com there is a reviewer who currently calls himself "gio." He doesn't love everything and not everyone agrees with his opinions, but he's one of the more knowledgeable fellas I've run into on the internet in this field. You could do worse than following him and seeing what he recommends.


----------



## science

Also, we shouldn't beat ourselves up too much for not knowing this music. With a few exceptions - the Tallis Scholars, Huelgas Ensemble, David Munrow, the Hilliard Ensemble - the groups dedicated to performing it are fairly new: Cinquecento, Brabant Ensemble, Blue Heron, stile antico, the Cardinall's Musik, Alamire.... 

Nearly every CD any of these groups releases contains music that has never or rarely been recorded before. I even half suspect that Jordi doesn't just makes stuff up sometimes.


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## Nereffid

science said:


> This is a great point. Reflecting on it briefly, I find that I side with people who favored doing this project a bit on the slower side. I think most of us - definitely including myself - need time to do our homework before we vote.


Well, the thread started more than three months ago, and I probably won't start the project for another 10 days or so...


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## mmsbls

science said:


> This is a great point. Reflecting on it briefly, I find that I side with people who favored doing this project a bit on the slower side. I think most of us - definitely including myself - need time to do our homework before we vote.


I will certainly be very happy with whatever Nereffid decides, but I would favor a slower pace to this project as well.


----------



## Nereffid

Given that my intention is to have more than 10 works in the voting round, to be reduced to 10, I think it's fair that everyone have more time to make informed decisions.
Suggestion - 3 days for nominations, 4 days for voting? That at least would give a regularity to the process.


----------



## Richannes Wrahms

Added some things.

Alfonso X: Cantigas de Santa Maria
Allegri: Miserere
Allegri: Missa Che fa oggi il mio sole
Anonymous: Agincourt Carol
Anonymous: Carmina Burana
Anonymous: Le manuscrit du Roi
Anonymous: Tournai Mass
Anonymous: Montpellier Codex
Anonymous: MS Add. 29987
Anonymous: Sumer is icumen in
Bach, J Christoph: Lamento
Bernart de Ventadorn: Can vei la lauzeta mover
Biber: Mystery Sonatas
Biber: Sonatae Violino solo 1681
Blow: Venus and Adonis
Browne: Stabat mater
Brumel: Missa de beata virgine
Brumel: Missa Et ecce terrae motus
Busnois: Missa O Crux lingam
Buxtehude: Membra Jesu Nostri
Buxtehude: Trio Sonatas, opp. 1 & 2
Byrd: Ave verum corpus
Byrd: Great Service.
Byrd: Mass for 3 voices.
Byrd: Mass for 4 voices.
Byrd: Mass for 5 Voices
Caccini: Le nuove musiche
Caccini: L'Eurydice
Philippus de Caserta: De ma doulour 
Cavalli: Giasone
Charpentier: La descente d'Orphée aux enfers
Charpentier: Te Deum
Clemens non Papa: Missa Pastores quidnam vidistis
Clemens non Papa: Requiem
Cornysh: Ah Robyn, Gentle Robyn
Cornysh: Ave maria
Cornysh: Salve regina
Crecquillon: Missa Mort m'a privé
Domarto: Missa Spiritus almus
Dowland: Lachrimae
Dufay: Missa Se lay face ay pale
Dufay: Nuper rosarum flores
Dunstable: Quam pulchra es
Fayrfax: Magnificat
Gabrieli: Sacrae symphoniae
Galli: Missa Ascendetis post filium
Gesualdo: Madrigals, book 4
Gesualdo: Madrigals, book 5
Gesualdo: Tenebrae Responsoria
Gombert: Credo a 8
Gombert: Magnificats
Guerrero: Missa de la batalla escoutez
Guido: Dieux gart 
Handl-Gallus: Mirabile mysterium
Hildegard von Bingen: Ave generosa
Hildegard von Bingen: O Euchari
Hildegard von Bingen: O Jerusalem (O Ierusalem)
Hildegard von Bingen: Ordo virtutum
Isaac: Innsbruck, ich muss dich lassen
Janequin: La Guerre (La Bataille de Marignan)
Josquin: Ave Maria a 4
Joaquin: Missa Ave maris stella
Josquin: Missa de Beata Virgine
Josquin: Missa Fortuna desperate
Josquin: Missa Hercules Dux Ferrariae
Josquin: Missa L'homme armé super voces musicales
Josquin: Missa La sol fa re mi
Josquin: Missa Pange lingua
Josquin: Mille regretz
Josquin: Miserere mei
Josquin: Nymphes des bois
Lassus: Lagrime di San Pietro
Lassus: Missa pro defunctis
Lassus: Missa super Dixit Joseph
Lassus: Prophetiae Sibyllarum
Lassus: Psalmi Davidis poenitentiales
Leoninus: Magnus liber organi
Lully: Armide
Lully: Le Bourgeois Gentilhomme
Luython: Missa Sex Vocum Super Filiae Jerusalem
Machaut: Lay de la fonteinne
Machaut: Messe de Nostre Dame
Machaut: Quant en moy
Manchicourt: Missa Cuidez vous que Dieu nous faille
Manchicourt: Missa Veni Sancte Spiritus
Merula: Hor ch'e tempo di morire
Milán: El Maestro
Monte: Missa Ultimi miei sospiri
Monteverdi: Il ritorno d'Ulisse in patria
Monteverdi: L'Arianna
Monteverdi: L'incoronazione di Poppea
Monteverdi: L'Orfeo
Monteverdi: Madrigals book 8
Monteverdi: Vespers
Morales: Parce mihi Domine
Morales: Requiem (Officium defunctorum)
Mouton: Missa Dictes moy toutes voz pensees
Mouton: Missa Tu es Petrus
Mouton: Nesciens Mater
Mundy: Vox Patris caelestis
Obrecht: Missa Caput
Ockeghem: Deo gratias
Ockeghem: Intemerata Dei Mater
Ockeghem: Missa Caput
Ockeghem: Missa Cuiusvis Toni
Ockeghem: Missa Mi-mi
Ockeghem: Missa pro defunctis
Ockeghem: Missa prolationum
Ortiz: Trattado de glosas
Oswald von Wolkenstein: Durch Barbarei, Arabia
Pachelbel: Hexachordum Apollinis
Palestrina: Litaniae de Beata Virgine Maria à 8
Palestrina: Missa Aeterna Christi munera
Palestrina: Missa Dum complerentur
Palestrina: Missa Papae Marcelli
Palestrina: Missa Repleatur os meum
Palestrina: Stabat Mater
Peri: Euridice
Pérotin: Alleluia "Nativitas"
Pérotin: Alleluia, Posui adiutorium
Pérotin: Sederunt principes
Pérotin: Viderunt omnes
Phinot: Missa Si bona suscepimus
Pierre De la Rue: Missa Cum iocunditate
Pipelare: Missa L'homme armé
Playford: The English Dancing Master
Power: Missa Alma redemptoris mater
Praetorius: Terpsichore
Purcell: Dido and Aeneas
Purcell: Funeral Music for Queen Mary
Rebelo: Vesper Psalms
Regnart: Missa Super oeniades nymphae
Richafort: Requiem
Rore: Missa a note negre
Rore: Missa Doulce memoire
Senleches: La harpe de melodie
Scheidt: Ludi musici
Schein: Banchetto musicale
Schein: Fontana d'Israel
Schmelzer: Lamento sopra la morte Ferdinand III
Schütz: Cantiones sacrae
Schütz:Musikalische Exequien
Solage: Fumeux fume par fumée
Striggio: Ecce beatam lucem
Striggio: Mass for 40 Voices
Susato: Dansereye
Sutton: Salve Regina a 7
Tallis: Spem in alium
Taverner: Missa Corona spinea
Taverner: Missa Gloria Tibi Trinitas
Taverner: "The Western Wind" Mass
Vaet: Missa Ego flos campi
Victoria: Ave Maria a 8
Victoria: Missa Ascendens Christus in altum
Victoria: Missa Ave maris stella
Victoria: Missa pro defunctis
Victoria: Missa O magnum mysteriosum
Victoria: Missa O quam gloriosum
Philippe de Vitry: Vos Qui Admiramini
Willaert: Missa Mente tota
Wylkynson: Salve Regina a 9


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## pjang23

For Machaut, add

*Songs from Le Voir Dit* - His magnum opus along with the Messe de Nostre Dame
Le Remede de Fortune
Douce Dame Jolie
Je Vivroie Liement
Jugement du roy de Navarre


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## musicrom

A couple questions as I'm trying to compile my list...

I was wondering if the consensus is that Corelli's Concerti Grossi are considered post-1700? They were published posthumously in 1714, but for example, Wikipedia says about the Christmas Concerto:


> Its composition date is uncertain, but there is a record of Corelli having performed a Christmas concerto in 1690 for the enjoyment of his then-new patron.


Also, does pre-1700 preclude works written in 1700, or include them? There are a couple works that I know that were probably written in 1700.

Finally, Pachelbel's _Canon and Gigue _was written ~1680, right? I guess I'd add that to the list of recommendations.


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## Nereffid

As regards Corelli's op.6, my 1980 _New Grove_ says:


> After 1708 Corelli retired from public view. He busied himself with the composition, or more probably revision, of concerti grossi. A Christmas Concerto perhaps identical with op.6 no.8 had been composed as far back as 1690 for Ottoboni, and other concertos may well have matured for far longer, going back to the time of Muffat's visit or beyond. Possibly Corelli felt compelled to increase their quotient of virtuosity, converting what were originally sinfonias for church or theatre into more scintillating works able to stand comparison with the concertos of Torelli, Albinoni, Valentini and other pioneers, and profiting from the technical advances made in his op.5, the celebrated set of violin sonatas dedicated in 1700 to the Electress Sophie Charlotte of Brandenburg.


I'd be inclined to call the op.6 set a post-1700 work, given that the revisions were done post-1700 and that for all we know the revisions might have been extensive.
To answer one of your other questions, the op.5 set or any work with a date of 1700 is not a pre-1700 work, by definition.

As for Pachelbel's Canon, the consensus seems to have it as pre-1700, so that's OK.


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## DiesIraeCX

Anyone else find it utterly fascinating listening to music that was older to Mozart than Mozart's music is to us?


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## SimonNZ

Nereffid said:


> As regards Corelli's op.6, my 1980 _New Grove_ says:
> 
> I'd be inclined to call the op.6 set a post-1700 work, given that the revisions were done post-1700 and that for all we know the revisions might have been extensive.
> To answer one of your other questions, the op.5 set or any work with a date of 1700 is not a pre-1700 work, by definition.


Corelli also seems unambiguously Baroque.


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## GioCar

SimonNZ said:


> Corelli also seems unambiguously Baroque.


As they are Lully, Charpentier, Purcell, Buxtehude, just to mention a few.

IMO we should not think at the period but only consider the chosen year, which is midway in the Baroque...


----------



## DiesIraeCX

If someone would be so kind as to point out some of the technical differences between medieval and renaissance compositions, I'd greatly appreciate it. For instance, if one were to point out the differences between the Romantic and Classical eras, one could point to the increased chromaticism in romantic music, freer form, varied/altered sonata-allegro forms, larger orchestral forces, etc.

What is Josquin (Renaissance) doing in the _Missa Pange Lingua_ that Machaut (Medieval) didn't in the _Messa de Nostre Dame_? 150 plus years separate them, they are separated in time more than Bach's _St. Matthew's Passion_ (1727) is separated from Wagner's _Tristan und Isolde_ (1857). You'll have to forgive my ignorance and lack of knowledge on this issue. For an musical layperson, I'm merely an enthusiast, I feel I have a very good ear for classical music, starting from Baroque all the way through Modernism. Yet, when when listening to some of these Medieval and Renaissance era works, the best I can come up with is that one sounds more "complex" than the other, not being able to put it in more concrete terms. I do know that I was absolutely floored by Perotin's _Viderunt Omnes_ and Josquin's _Missa Pange Lingua_ (especially the Sanctus movement!).

Thanks in advance to anyone willing to help out a naturally curious person! :tiphat:


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## Mahlerian

The whole nature of consonance and dissonance treatment underwent a shift around the turn of the Renaissance era. There was not yet an idea of "harmony" as an ongoing process, the way we understand it today, but rather a view of proper voice leading when multiple parts are involved and the kinds of relationships that may or may not occur at a given time.

Renaissance music, although not yet based around keys, has a closer similarity to the music of the common practice era because of the treatment of thirds as a consonance (and therefore the appearance of vertical formations equivalent in construction to the modern triad).

In Medieval music, thirds were considered a _dissonance_. Not as sharp of a dissonance as that formed by seconds, sevenths, or the tritone, but a dissonance nonetheless (sixths were considered a stronger dissonance than thirds). Additionally, fourths were considered a perfect consonance, like the fifth, even when formed with the bass. In Renaissance and common practice music, the fourth is a consonance if formed among upper parts (under certain conditions) but a dissonance if formed with the bass. Nonetheless, the most perfect sonority was thought to be a root, a fifth, and an octave, equivalent to what we would call a "bare fifth" today, and this was the goal of cadences to end a piece.

Some Renaissance pieces, up into the 16th century, still end with a cadence to a "bare fifth" rather than a triad. There are even examples of this in common practice era music (eg first movement of Bruckner's Ninth), though it is a special effect, rare and exceptional.

Going back to thirds for a moment, part of the reason for their eventual acceptance was due to a change in tunings. Put simply, Medieval music used tunings based on perfect fifths that produced slightly more out of tune thirds, while Renaissance music used tunings with sweeter thirds.


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## Lukecash12

Nereffid said:


> Also, let me add that I was keen for a discussion of these sorts of issues way back in October, but there was little interest from anyone else.





Chordalrock said:


> All I can say is I wish someone had introduced me to the Gombert of "Sound and the Fury" and "Beauty Farm" ten years ago, when I was still a relative newbie to classical music (if those albums had existed back then). The Renaissance is an era with many gems that few people are familiar with, and some popular works that are popular due to an accident of history. It's not a well-known era at all, and when people are recommending the big popular pieces, they aren't doing it from a position of extensive knowledge and familiarity.
> 
> It's not like the people in this thread who are recommending "Missa Papae Marcelli" are actually familiar with all of Palestrina's best masses. That mass is popular due to extra-musical historical reasons, and I'd say a list like this would be a lot more useful to a newbie if it guided them to some more representative Palestrina works instead of the historical anomaly that they probably have heard about anyway AND that might well end up being a turn-off for them due to its relative simplicity and chordal nature compared with many Palestrina masses that are a lot more exciting and interesting.
> 
> Just assuming that what is already popular is popular for a good reason and that this list should reflect that is intellectually lazy conformism. It's rarely useful to add your voice to what is already the voice of the culture as a whole. Much better if you manage to say something no one has thought of yet. Now that might be useful to someone, newbie or not.


In that spirit I'd like to stimulate some further discussion here if I can. While I don't think the last paragraph here is a fair reflection of what's been going on in the TC pre-1700 list, I do sympathize with this perspective, and not to sound haughty or anything but I have personally tried in the nominations so far to present works that deserve wider attention, and would expose newcomers to pre-1700 music to so much that is exceptional about it.


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## SimonNZ

> t's not like the people in this thread who are recommending "Missa Papae Marcelli" are actually familiar with all of Palestrina's best masses. That mass is popular due to extra-musical historical reasons,


I don't agree with the first assumption or the second opinion.


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## Nereffid

Regarding Palestrina, in round 2 six people nominated a total of 5 different masses. 
Without a discussion of the relative merits of these (and other) masses, it looks like the only way another Palestrina mass will have a chance of making it onto the list is if a bunch of people all spontaneously change their minds the same way.

I'm curious as to how much listening to other people's suggestions everyone is doing before they nominate?
There were a few requests to go slow on the project so that people could expand their knowledge, but so far I feel like 5 days is way too much time, and most people are nominating and voting quite quickly.


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## MagneticGhost

> 1. Monteverdi: L'Orfeo (134 points)
> 2. Palestrina: Missa Papae Marcelli (124 points)
> 3. Monteverdi: Vespro della Beata Vergine (124 points)
> 4. Josquin: Missa Pange lingua (117 points)
> 5. Machaut: Messe de Nostre Dame (113 points)
> 6. Tallis: Spem in Alium (103 points)
> 7. Gesualdo: Madrigals, Book 6 (103 points)
> 8. Pérotin: Viderunt omnes (101 points)
> 9. Biber: Mystery (Rosary) Sonatas (97 points)
> 10. Purcell: Dido and Aeneas (83 points)


Would this be a good place to discuss best recordings and the like. 
I'm very happy with my Hogwood 'Dido' and my Gardiner 'Vespers' and my Estonian Philharmonic Chamber Choir's Machaut is beyond reproach.
I don't have L'Orfeo though (even though I voted for it). I've seen it live a couple of times but never bought a recording. And I've got no Biber. 
Other's thoughts and recommendations please!


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## Headphone Hermit

Nereffid said:


> I'm curious as to how much listening to other people's suggestions everyone is doing before they nominate?
> There were a few requests to go slow on the project so that people could expand their knowledge, but so far I feel like 5 days is way too much time, and most people are nominating and voting quite quickly.


Speaking only for myself, of course, but so far I have been familiar with almost all of the works that have been nominated - and i have been familiar with all of the works in the voting rounds. I am anticipating that as the project develops, there will be more works that are unfamiliar to me in the nomination and voting rounds and that I may need to do more exploring in order to make an informed decision in the voting round


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## D Smith

MagneticGhost said:


> Would this be a good place to discuss best recordings and the like.
> I'm very happy with my Hogwood 'Dido' and my Gardiner 'Vespers' and my Estonian Philharmonic Chamber Choir's Machaut is beyond reproach.
> I don't have L'Orfeo though (even though I voted for it). I've seen it live a couple of times but never bought a recording. And I've got no Biber.
> Other's thoughts and recommendations please!


I can recommend the Tallis Scholars for the Tallis, Palestrina and Josquin, Tonus Peregrines for the Pérotin and Andrew Manze for the Biber.


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## GreenMamba

Nereffid said:


> I'm curious as to how much listening to other people's suggestions everyone is doing before they nominate?


I suspect a lot of people just copy their previous 15 noms and adjust for the few that were voted in.

But the most important point: Someone has to nominate first. If we all wait to see other people's nominations, then there won't be any nominations to see.

So I'm torn between waiting to see other people's nominations (so they can influence my own), and getting my own noms out there (so they may influence them).

As far as voting is concerned, if you nominate early, then you have the rest of that period to catch up on your listening. So you may be ready to go once the voting period starts.



Nereffid said:


> There were a few requests to go slow on the project so that people could expand their knowledge, but so far I feel like 5 days is way too much time, and most people are nominating and voting quite quickly.


No, not too much time for me.

When you nom/vote doesn't give any indication of how much listening you are doing. You may be listening *after* your posting. So how much listening to this stuff are we doing? I've immersed myself in it, but of course there's only so much time in life.

There is a point in that we're not using this thread to hash out suggestions, etc. I guess it's just difficult to keep two threads active. This is why I don't mind the cross-talk and lobbying in the main thread.


----------



## isorhythm

I do plan to listen and adjust my nominations and votes in light of others' in future rounds. I just didn't have time before the deadline in the last round. This approach seems to have worked well in the other list projects.


----------



## mmsbls

Nereffid said:


> I'm curious as to how much listening to other people's suggestions everyone is doing before they nominate?
> There were a few requests to go slow on the project so that people could expand their knowledge, but so far I feel like 5 days is way too much time, and most people are nominating and voting quite quickly.


I agree with Headphone Hermit that as the project moves on people will need more time. The early rounds are likely easier to know what one wishes to vote for. I enjoy having more time to listen to new works and to determine how to rank the works I know.


----------



## Nereffid

Nomination round 3 is now open.

Here's a list of what was nominated in round 2:

*6 or more nominations* _(these made it to voting round 2)_
Pérotin: Sederunt principes
Ockeghem: Requiem (Missa pro defunctis)
Buxtehude: Membra Jesu nostri
Charpentier: Te Deum
Dowland: Second Booke of Songes
Pachelbel: Canon in D

*5 nominations*
Alfonso X: Cantigas de Santa Maria
Lassus: Prophetiae Sibyllarum
Lassus: Psalmi Davidis poenitentiales
Taverner: Missa Gloria tibi Trinitas

*4 nominations*
Byrd: Mass for 4 Voices
Dowland: Lachrimae, or Seaven Teares
Gabrieli G: Sacrae Symphoniae
Machaut: Le Voir Dit
Monteverdi: Selva morale e spirituale
Palestrina: Stabat mater
Schütz: Musikalische Exequien

*3 nominations*
Anon: Carmina Burana
Byrd: My Ladye Nevells Booke
Dufay: Missa L'homme armé
Gesualdo: Madrigals, Book 5
Obrecht: Missa Caput
Palestrina: Canticum canticorum
Striggio: Missa Ecco si beato giorno

*2 nominations*
Anon: Llibre Vermell de Montserrat
Anon: Tournai Mass
Brumel: Missa Et ecce terrae motus
Buxtehude: Praeludium in F Sharp Minor BuxWV 146
Dowland: First Booke of Songes
Dufay: Missa Se la face ay pale
Dufay: Salve flos Tusce gentis
Frescobaldi: Fiori musicali
Josquin: Missa Hercules dux Ferrariae
Lassus: Lagrime di San Pietro
Marenzio: Madrigals, Book 5
Monteverdi: Madrigals, Book 5
Mouton: Nesciens Mater
Ockeghem: Missa de plus en plus
Ockeghem: Missa Mi-Mi
Palestrina: Missa Assumpta est Maria
Praetorius: Terpsichore
Purcell: Hail Bright Cecilia
Schütz: Psalmen Davids
Solage: Fumeux fume par fumée
Victoria: Tenebrae Responsoria
White: Lamentations of Jeremiah

*1 nomination*
Adam de la Halle: Jeu de Robin et Marion
Anon: Codex las Huelgas
Anon: Dances from Add. MS 29987
Anon: Ludus Danielis
Anon: Ne m'oubliez mie
Anon: Salve virgo virginum
Anon: Stillat in stellum radium
Anon: Venite a laudare
Bach, Johann Christoph: Ach, dass ich Wassers genug hatte (Lamento)
Bartholomeus de Bononia: Morir desio
Bernart de Ventadorn: Can vei la lauzeta mover
Biber: Battalia a 10
Biber: Missa Salisburgensis
Browne: Stabat juxta Christi crucem
Browne: Stabat mater
Buxtehude: Nun freut euch, lieben Christen g'mein / G major; chorale fantasia, BuxWV 210
Buxtehude: Te Deum laudamus
Buxtehude: Toccata in D minor, BuxWV 155
Byrd: Infelix ego
Byrd: Pavanes and Galliards
Byrd: Songs of Sundry Natures
Caldara: Maddalena ai piedi di Cristo
Cavalli: Il Giasone
Cavalli: Il rapimento d'Helena
Cavalli: L'Artemisia
Cavalli: La Calisto
Dowland: The Frog Galliard
Dufay: Ecclesie militantis
Dufay: Fulgens iubar ecclesiae dei - Puerpera, pura parens
Dufay: Missa Ave regina caelorum
Dufay: O gemma lux
Dufay: Resvellies vous
Etienne de Liège
Farina: Capriccio stravagante
Ferrabosco: Peccantem me quotidie
Ferrabosco: Salmo 103
Francesco da Milano: Fantasia No.55 "La piu bella & divina a che abbia fatto"
Frescobaldi: Capriccios
Gabrieli G: Symphoniae Sacrae II
Gesualdo: Tribulationem et dolorem
Gombert: Je prens congie a 8
Gombert: Media vita a 6
Gombert: O, Jesu Christe a 6 (aka Sancta Maria)
Gombert: Peccata mea a 6
Isaac: Missa de Apostolis
Isaac: Virgo prudentissima
Johnson: Carmen's Whistle
Josquin: Miserere mei Deus
Josquin: Nymphes des bois
Josquin: Salve regina a 5
Landini: Conviens' a fede
Lassus: Missa Pro defunctis a 4
Lassus: Missa super Osculetur me
Lobo: Requiem for 6 voices
Lully: Armide
Machaut: De Fortune me doy pleindre
Machaut: Motets
Monteverdi: Il ritorno d'Ulisse in patria
Monteverdi: L'incoronazione di Poppea
Morales: Missa pro defunctis
Morales: Parce mihi Domine
Mundy: Vox Patris caelestis
Ockeghem: Deo gratias
Padovano: Missa a 24 voix
Palestrina: Lamentationes Ieremiae prophetae
Palestrina: Missa Ave Maria
Palestrina: Missa Benedicta es
Palestrina: Missa Hodie Christus natus est
Palestrina: Missa Repleature os meum
Purcell: King Arthur
Rore: St John Passion
Scheidemann: Jesus Christus unser Heiland (II)
Schütz: Weihnachtshistorie
Taverner: Dum transisset sabbatum
Tunder: Dominus illuminatio mea
Walther: Hortulus Chelicus
Willaert: Madrigals from Musica Nova

That's 123 works from 55 different composers (counting Anon as one).


----------



## Nereffid

Nomination round 4 is now open.

Here's a list of what was nominated in round 3:

*7 nominations* (made it to voting round)
Lassus: Prophetiae Sibyllarum
Palestrina: Stabat mater

*6 nominations*
Dufay: Missa L'homme armé
Gesualdo: Madrigals, Book 5
Monteverdi: Selva morale e spirituale
Pachelbel: Canon in D

*5 nominations*
Anon: Carmina Burana
Byrd: My Ladye Nevells Booke
Dowland: Lachrimae, or Seaven Teares
Josquin: Missa Hercules dux Ferrariae
Machaut: Songs from Le Voir Dit
Obrecht: Missa Caput
Taverner: Missa Gloria tibi Trinitas

*4 nominations*
Anon: Llibre Vermell de Montserrat
Biber: Missa Salisburgensis
Frescobaldi: Fiori musicali
Lassus: Psalmi Davidis poenitentiales
Ockeghem: Missa Mi-Mi
Palestrina: Canticum canticorum
Praetorius: Terpsichore

*3 nominations*
Anon: Tournai Mass
Biber: Battalia a 10
Dufay: Missa Se la face ay pale
Marenzio: Madrigals, Book 5
Morales: Missa pro defunctis
Purcell: Hail Bright Cecilia
Striggio: Missa Ecco si beato giorno

*2 nominations*
Browne: Stabat mater
Brumel: Missa Et ecce terrae motus
Codax: Cantigas de amigo
Dowland: First Booke of Songes
Froberger: Suite XX in D, FbWV 620
Gombert: Je prens congie a 8
Josquin: Salve regina a 5
Monteverdi: Madrigals, Book 5
Mouton: Nesciens Mater
Ockeghem: Deo gratias
Solage: Fumeux fume par fumée

*1 nomination*
Anon: Codex las Huelgas
Anon: Ludus Danielis
Anon: Venite a laudare
Bartholomeus de Bononia: Morir desio
Browne: Stabat juxta Christi crucem
Brumel: Missa de beata virgine
Buxtehude: Praeludium in F Sharp Minor BuxWV 146
Buxtehude: Toccata in D minor, BuxWV 155
Byrd: Infelix ego
Byrd: Songs of Sundry Natures
Cabezón: Obras de Música
Caldara: Maddalena ai piedi di Cristo
Cavalieri: Rappresentatione di Anima, et di Corpo
Cavalli: Il Giasone
Cavalli: Il rapimento d'Helena
Cavalli: L'Artemisia
Cavalli: La Calisto
Dufay: Ecclesie militantis
Dufay: Missa Ave regina caelorum
Dufay: Resvellies vous
Dufay: Salve flos Tusce gentis
Ferrabosco: Peccantem me quotidie
Francesco da Milano: Fantasia No.55 "La piu bella & divina a che abbia fatto"
Frescobaldi: Capriccios
Gabrieli G: Symphoniae Sacrae II
Gombert: Magnificats (8)
Gombert: Media vita a 6
Gombert: O, Jesu Christe a 6 (aka Sancta Maria)
Gombert: Peccata mea a 6
Janequin: La bataille
Josquin: Absalon Fili mi
Josquin: Miserere mei Deus
Josquin: Nymphes des bois
Kapsberger: Canario
Landini: Conviens' a fede
Lassus: Cantiones sacrae a 6 (1594)
Lassus: Missa Pro defunctis a 4
Lobo: Requiem for 6 voices
Lully: Armide
Lully: Benedictus
Machaut: Motets
Milán: El Maestro
Monteverdi: Il ritorno d'Ulisse in patria
Monteverdi: L'incoronazione di Poppea
Palestrina: Dominus Jesus in qua nocte
Palestrina: Missa Ave Maria
Palestrina: Missa Hodie Christus natus est
Palestrina: Missa Repleature os meum
Purcell: King Arthur
Rore: St John Passion
Schütz: Geistliche Chormusik
Schütz: Psalmen Davids
Schütz: Weihnachtshistorie
Shepherd: Media vita
Striggio: Ecce beatam lucem
Taverner: Western Wynde Mass
Victoria: Tenebrae Responsoria
White: Lamentations of Jeremiah
Willaert: Madrigals from Musica Nova


----------



## StDior

The best version and some highlights of Cavalli: La Calisto:




(6x~2.5min highlights: 29:04-31:53, 1:05:29-1:08:22, 1:57:08-2:00:36, 2:21:26-2:22:53, 2:33:23-2:36:02, 2:42:20-2:45:37)


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## GreenMamba

Giving this thread a much needed bump, but also starting to do some lobbying:

1. *Brumel's * Et ecce terræ motus ("Earthquake Mass"): I hadn't listened to this until just recently, but am ready to jump on board the nominating bandwagon (so the 2-3 champions of this work, don't give up now!)





2. *Striggio's *Mass a 40 is another big one (and later one), although there's been some call for the shorter Ecce beatam lucem (also 40 voices)





3. I agree *Gombert* is an omission, but there appears to be some division him. Magnificats? Je prens congie? Media vita, a 6?

4. *Solage's *Fumeux fume par fumée has been nominated alone, but it is also part of the Chantilly Codex, which has come up short. I don't know if that splits the vote, but I kind of like the idea of a shorter, more targeted recommendation of just this one song:





5. John *Bull's *Nomine XI (in 11/4) a (gasp!) purely instrumental work.


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## Nereffid

Some general comments on the nominations.

- My own view is that, because this is a finite (and relatively short) list, a wide variety of composers and styles is essential. IIRC of the 9 named composers enshrined in the last round, 8 already had a work on the list, which seems too many to me.
- GreenMamba's point about Gombert is a good one. Discussion is surely needed to reach a consensus on which work to promote, and for other composers too - if anyone wants to see a Buxtehude organ work on the list, for instance.
- Actually, in the absence of discussion I'm not sure whether there are some cases of specific works being supported simply because they already have support (as in, _I want a Gombert work in, so I'll just support this one that someone else has nominated_). This doesn't have to be regarded as a problem, especially considering the game format essentially relies on some sort of snowball effect, but I'm curious how prevalent it is.
- As for the Chantilly Codex, I switched to that from Solage because it seems that there's a general preference (in this project and on TC generally) for larger works or collections rather than individual shorter works - case in point being the relative popularity of Josquin's masses versus his motets. Individual shorter works might, however, be the only (or by far the best) way to represent some composers.
- I'm sure several new works will continue to be nominated in each round, but we already have enough nominations to fill the 100 slots with plenty left over. I'm away from my home computer so I can't yet post the full list of nominations as I did with previous rounds. But seeing as we're nearly halfway through (though we certainly could go beyond 10 rounds) participants might start to consider the bigger picture and think about what the final 100 could (or "should") look like.


----------



## GreenMamba

Nereffid said:


> Some general comments on the nominations.
> 
> - My own view is that, because this is a finite (and relatively short) list, a wide variety of composers and styles is essential. IIRC of the 9 named composers enshrined in the last round, 8 already had a work on the list, which seems too many to me.


I also do some conscious voting for variety, but I don't think it is required. Others might just pick their favorites even if it's the same guys. For me, favorites is always a bit of a put-on anyway (I certainly can't truly rank my favorite works).



Nereffid said:


> - Actually, in the absence of discussion I'm not sure whether there are some cases of specific works being supported simply because they already have support (as in, _I want a Gombert work in, so I'll just support this one that someone else has nominated_). This doesn't have to be regarded as a problem, especially considering the game format essentially relies on some sort of snowball effect, but I'm curious how prevalent it is.


Trying to split the difference between two things: everybody jumps in behind the first work mentioned by a composer, and punishing a composer by vote-splitting.



Nereffid said:


> - As for the Chantilly Codex, I switched to that from Solage because it seems that there's a general preference (in this project and on TC generally) for larger works or collections rather than individual shorter works - case in point being the relative popularity of Josquin's masses versus his motets. Individual shorter works might, however, be the only (or by far the best) way to represent some composers.


Maybe the list should have some of each. Personally, I'd like to receive recs like this:

Chantilly Codex (Solage: Fumeux fume, XXXX: YYYYY), or
Solage: Fumeux fume par fumee (from Chantilly Codex)

Gomert: Chansons (Je prens congie, XXXX)

But I don't see how we get there.

-----

I may keep nominating new works because I'm still listening to new stuff. In a way, my first list of noms would be different if we started all over again.

I'm sure we want to avoid a situation where the 100 works are more or less the first 100 noms.


----------



## SimonNZ

Nereffid said:


> - My own view is that, because this is a finite (and relatively short) list, a wide variety of composers and styles is essential. IIRC of the 9 named composers enshrined in the last round, 8 already had a work on the list, which seems too many to me.
> 
> - I'm sure several new works will continue to be nominated in each round, but we already have enough nominations to fill the 100 slots with plenty left over. I'm away from my home computer so I can't yet post the full list of nominations as I did with previous rounds. But seeing as we're nearly halfway through (though we certainly could go beyond 10 rounds) participants might start to consider the bigger picture and think about what the final 100 could (or "should") look like.


I'm all for variety and a good mix of whatever, but I don't see any problem with how things are progressing. I certainly haven't thought it just the same old same old, or that anything was "too many".

I wouldn't want to start thinking about "what the final 100 could or should look like", if as far as I'm concerned its already doing what its meant to - offering up lots of potentialy new listening or reassesments in the nomination rounds, and the enshrinements aren't just a list of the most played warhorses, but more personalised to the TC membership with a few curiosities and surprises.

Surely nobody thinks we're making some kind of definitive list, or that if we started over it wouldn't immediately look a little different.


----------



## tortkis

Some random thoughts and questions...

I think Toccatas of Michelangelo Rossi (1601/2-1656) are astounding.
Rossi Toccata settima: 




I nominated Cabezón's Obras de Música, but it may be too large?

sloth nominated Ciconia. I too want to nominate some of his compositions, but, since his entire work is not so huge, maybe nominating just "Ciconia" is fine?

Landini composed many short ballate. I nominated Conviens' a fede, but it may be too small compared with other large scale works? Is there any good grouping of his works, or, are there particularly outstanding songs of his?


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## Nereffid

SimonNZ said:


> I'm all for variety and a good mix of whatever, but I don't see any problem with how things are progressing. I certainly haven't thought it just the same old same old, or that anything was "too many".
> 
> I wouldn't want to start thinking about "what the final 100 could or should look like", if as far as I'm concerned its already doing what its meant to - offering up lots of potentialy new listening or reassesments in the nomination rounds, and the enshrinements aren't just a list of the most played warhorses, but more personalised to the TC membership with a few curiosities and surprises.
> 
> Surely nobody thinks we're making some kind of definitive list, or that if we started over it wouldn't immediately look a little different.


I have no doubt that any list produced by the current process will be a satisfactory one. I know I'm fighting a losing battle on this issue!


----------



## Nereffid

Belatedly, here's the list of works nominated in Round 4:

*6 or 7 nominations (went to Voting Round 4):*
Ockeghem: Missa Mi-Mi
Dufay: Missa L'homme armé
Frescobaldi: Fiori musicali
Josquin: Missa Hercules dux Ferrariae
Lassus: Penitential Psalms
Palestrina: Canticum canticorum
Praetorius: Terpsichore

*5 nominations:*
Anon: Codex Chantilly
Biber: Battalia a 10
Brumel: Missa Et ecce terrae motus
Dufay: Missa Se la face ay pale
Lully: Armide
Purcell: Hail Bright Cecilia
Schütz: Geistliche Chormusik

*4 nominations:*
Anon: Llibre Vermell de Montserrat
Anon: Tournai Mass
Biber: Missa Salisburgensis
Browne: Stabat mater
Machaut: Songs from Le Voir Dit

*3 nominations:*
Gombert: Magnificats (8)
Marenzio: Madrigals, Book 5
Monteverdi: Madrigals, Book 5
Morales: Missa pro defunctis
Palestrina: Missa Assumpta est Maria
Striggio: Missa Ecco si beato giorno

*2 nominations:*
Anon: Codex las Huelgas
Anon: Codex Montpellier
Bach, Johann Christoph: Ach, dass ich Wassers genug hatte (Lamento)
Caccini: Le nuove musiche
Cavalieri: Rappresentatione di Anima, et di Corpo
Codax: Cantigas de amigo
Dowland: First Booke of Songes
Froberger: Suite XX in D, FbWV 620
Gombert: Je prens congie a 8
Janequin: La bataille
Josquin: Miserere mei Deus
Josquin: Nymphes des bois
Josquin: Salve regina a 5
Léonin: Magnus liber organi
Lobo: Requiem for 6 voices
Milán: El Maestro
Monteverdi: L'incoronazione di Poppea
Obrecht: Missa Caput
Purcell: Funeral Music for Queen Mary
Schütz: Psalmen Davids
Schütz: Weihnachtshistorie
Victoria: O Magnum Mysterium
White: Lamentations of Jeremiah
Willaert: Madrigals from Musica Nova

*1 nomination:*
Adam de la Halle: Jeu de Robin et Marion
Anon: Codex Calixtinus
Anon: Dances from Add. MS 29987
Anon: Ludus Danielis
Anon: Venite a laudare
Bartholomeus de Bononia: Morir desio
Bernart de Ventadorn: Can vei la lauzeta mover
Browne: Stabat juxta Christi crucem
Brumel: Missa de beata virgine
Bull: In Nomine IX (for keyboard)
Buxtehude: Ciacona in C, BuxWV 159
Buxtehude: Jubilate Domino, BuxWV 64
Buxtehude: Passcaglia in D minor, BuxWV 161
Buxtehude: Praeludium in F Sharp Minor BuxWV 146
Buxtehude: Te Deum laudamus
Buxtehude: Toccata in D minor, BuxWV 155
Byrd: Infelix ego
Byrd: Pavanes and Galliards
Byrd: Songs of Sundry Natures
Cabezón: Obras de Música
Caldara: Maddalena ai piedi di Cristo
Cavalli: Il Giasone
Cavalli: Il rapimento d'Helena
Cavalli: L'Artemisia
Cavalli: La Calisto
Dufay: Resvellies vous
Dufay: Salve flos Tusce gentis
Farina: Capriccio stravagante
Ferrabosco: Peccantem me quotidie
Francesco da Milano: Fantasia No.55 "La piu bella & divina a che abbia fatto"
Frescobaldi: Capriccios
Gabrieli G: Symphoniae Sacrae II
Hildegard: Columba aspexit
Josquin: Ave Maria... Virgo serena
Josquin: De profundis clamavi
Kapsberger: Toccata arpeggiata
Lassus: Cantiones sacrae a 6 (1594)
Lassus: Missa Pro defunctis a 4
Lawes, W: Royal Consorts
Lully: Benedictus
Machaut: La Remede de Fortune
Monteverdi: Il ritorno d'Ulisse in patria
Ockeghem: Deo gratias
Ockeghem: Missa Cuiusvis Toni
Ockeghem: Missa de plus en plus
Ockeghem: Missa Ecce ancilla
Ortiz: Trattado de glosas
Palestrina: Lamentationes Ieremiae prophetae
Palestrina: Missa Hodie Christus natus est
Purcell: King Arthur
Scheidemann: Jesus Christus unser Heiland (II)
Schein: Banchetto Musicale
Shepherd: Media vita
Striggio: Ecce beatam lucem
Susato: Danserye
Sweelinck: Fantasia cromatica, SwWV 258
Taverner: Dum transisset sabbatum
Taverner: Western Wynde Mass


----------



## sloth

It would be great to have either Vecchi's Amfiparnaso or Banchieri's Barca di Venetia included in the list to represent the madrigal comedy, a late renaissance genre which in many aspects predates the opera buffa


----------



## Nereffid

For reference, here's the works that were nominated in Round 4:

*7 nominations*
Josquin: Missa Hercules dux Ferrariae

*5 nominations*
Anon: Tournai Mass
Lully: Armide
Monteverdi: L'incoronazione di Poppea
Ockeghem: Missa Mi-Mi

*4 nominations*
Browne: Stabat mater
Buxtehude: Toccata in D minor, BuxWV 155
Purcell: Hail Bright Cecilia

*3 nominations*
Biber: Missa Salisburgensis
Gombert: Media vita a 6
Morales: Missa pro defunctis
Palestrina: Missa Assumpta est Maria
Sanz: Instruccion de Musica sobre la Guitarra Espagnola
Schütz: Geistliche Chormusik

*2 nominations*
Anon: Llibre Vermell de Montserrat
Bach, Johann Christoph: Ach, dass ich Wassers genug hatte (Lamento)
Biber: Requiem a 15 in A
Bull: In Nomine IX (for keyboard)
Buxtehude: Ciacona in C, BuxWV 159
Buxtehude: Jubilate Domino, BuxWV 64
Buxtehude: Praeludium in F Sharp Minor BuxWV 146
Caccini: Le nuove musiche
Cavalli: La Calisto
Codax: Cantigas de amigo
Dowland: First Booke of Songes
Dufay: Missa Se la face ay pale
Farina: Capriccio stravagante
Froberger: Suite XX in D, FbWV 620
Gibbons: Cries of London
Janequin: La bataille
Josquin: Miserere mei Deus
Josquin: Salve regina a 5
Lassus: Penitential Psalms
Lassus: Requiem a 5
Lobo: Requiem for 6 voices
Marenzio: Madrigals, Book 5
Monteverdi: Madrigals, Book 5
Palestrina: Missa Hodie Christus natus est
Schütz: Psalmen Davids
Schütz: Weihnachtshistorie
Striggio: Missa Ecco si beato giorno
Sweelinck: Fantasia cromatica, SwWV 258
White: Lamentations of Jeremiah
Willaert: Madrigals from Musica Nova

*1 nomination*
Adam de la Halle: Jeu de Robin et Marion
Agricola: Missa in myne zyn
Anon: Cant de la Sibilla
Anon: Codex Calixtinus
Anon: Codex las Huelgas
Anon: Codex Montpellier
Anon: Roman de Fauvel
Anon: Venite a laudare
Ashwell: Missa Ave Maria
Banchieri: Barca di Venetia per Padova
Bartholomeus de Bononia: Morir desio
Browne: Stabat juxta Christi crucem
Buxtehude: Te Deum laudamus
Byrd: Cantiones sacrae II
Byrd: Songs of Sundry Natures
Cabezón: Obras de Música
Cavalieri: Rappresentatione di Anima, et di Corpo
Cavalli: Il Giasone
Cavalli: L'Artemisia
Ciconia: -
Clemens non Papa: Missa Pastores quidnam vidistis
Dufay: Resvellies vous
Fayrfax: Missa O quam glorifica
Ferrabosco: Lamentations
Ferrabosco: Peccantem me quotidie
Francesco da Milano: Fantasia No.55 "La piu bella & divina a che abbia fatto"
Gabrieli G: Symphoniae Sacrae II
Gallus: Opus Musicum
Gautier de Coincy: Miracles of Notre Dame
Gibbons: This is the Record of John
Gombert: Magnificats (8)
Holborne: Pavans, Galliards and Almains
Janequin: Les cris de Paris
Josquin: De profundis clamavi
Josquin: Missa Malheur me bat
Josquin: Nymphes des bois
Josquin: Qui belles amours
Josquin: Stabat mater
Kapsberger: Canario
la Rue: Requiem
Lalande: De profundis
Landini: Ballate
Landini: Conviens' a fede
Léonin (?): Viderunt omnes
Léonin: Magnus liber organi
Lully: Benedictus
Merulo: Missa in dominicis diebus
Milán: El Maestro
Monteverdi: Il ritorno d'Ulisse in patria
Obrecht: Missa Maria Zart
Ockeghem: Deo gratias
Ockeghem: Missa Cuiusvis Toni
Ockeghem: Missa Ecce ancilla
Ockeghem: Missa L'homme armé
Palestrina: Dominus Jesus in qua nocte
Palestrina: Missa Repleature os meum
Purcell: Funeral Music for Queen Mary
Pycard: Credo
Richafort: Requiem
Rossi, M: 10 Toccatas
Scheidemann: Jesus Christus unser Heiland (II)
Shepherd: Media vita
Striggio: Ecce beatam lucem
Susato: Danserye
Tallis: Gaude gloriosa Dei mater
Taverner: Dum transisset sabbatum
Taverner: Missa O Michael
Taverner: Western Wynde Mass
Tye: Missa Euge bone
Tye: Western Wynde Mass
Vecchi: L'Amfiparnaso
Vitry: Motets & chansons


----------



## Nereffid

Fun fact: of the 49 works that received 3 or more nominations in round 1, 40 have now been enshrined in the top 50.


----------



## GreenMamba

Nereffid said:


> Fun fact: of the 49 works that received 3 or more nominations in round 1, 40 have now been enshrined in the top 50.


Ah, but any idea of what % of the total nominations from Round 1 are now enshrined? That might suggest an unfortunate inevitably of first-works-nominated-get-in.

It looks like every work from my first 15 is in (allowing that I adjusted Machaut from one song to the full songbook). I don't know what that says about me, and whether it is good or bad.

Some stats:

14 composers with multiple works.
Monteverdi leads with four.
Byrd, Gesualdo and Palestrina with three each.

Late 16th/early 17th century, although the 'twos' have a lot of earlier guys (e.g., Perotin has two) and there isn't much late 1600s. So it's not like we're just jumping on the late stuff.


----------



## Nereffid

GreenMamba said:


> Ah, but any idea of what % of the total nominations from Round 1 are now enshrined? That might suggest an unfortunate inevitably of first-works-nominated-get-in.


158 were nominated in Round 1, and 47 have been enshrined.

The 3 others enshrined are the Codex Chantilly (nominated in Round 4, although at least one piece from it was nominated in Round 1), Biber's _Battalia_, and Gombert's _Je prens congie_ (both of those nominated in Round 2).


----------



## Nereffid

109 works were nominated in round 6. That works out as an average of 6.4 unique works per person (round 5 was even higher, but rounds 1-4 were lower); this is to be expected, as the "obvious" works are enshrined and there's less consensus about the rest.

Any takers yet for a conversation about what we'd like to see in the final 100? 
Or, at least is there any interest in talking about what works other than our 15 nominations we're keen to support?

In the meantime, here's what was nominated in round 6:

*5 or more nominations*
Dowland: First Booke of Songes
Buxtehude: Toccata in D minor, BuxWV 155
Sweelinck: Fantasia cromatica, SwWV 258

*4 nominations*
Adam de la Halle: Jeu de Robin et Marion
Gibbons: Cries of London
Peri: Euridice
Sanz: Instrucción de Música sobre la Guitarra Española
Willaert: Madrigals from Musica Nova

*3 nominations*
Biber: Missa Salisburgensis
Buxtehude: Jubilate Domino, BuxWV 64
Caccini: Le nuove musiche
Gombert: Media vita a 6
Josquin: Miserere mei Deus
Lassus: Penitential Psalms
Machaut: La Remede de Fortune
Schütz: Weihnachtshistorie
Striggio: Missa Ecco si beato giorno
Susato: Danserye

*2 nominations*
Anon: Codex Calixtinus
Anon: Codex las Huelgas
Banchieri: Barca di Venetia per Padova
Biber: Requiem a 15 in A
Bull: In Nomine IX (for keyboard)
Buxtehude: Ciacona in C, BuxWV 159
Buxtehude: Praeludium in F Sharp Minor BuxWV 146
Clemens non Papa: Missa Pastores quidnam vidistis
Codax: Cantigas de amigo
Dufay: Missa Se la face ay pale
Froberger: Suite XX in D, FbWV 620
Isaac: Missa de Apostolis
Janequin: Les cris de Paris
Josquin: Salve regina a 5
la Rue: Requiem
Lobo: Requiem for 6 voices
Milán: El Maestro
Monteverdi: Madrigals, Book 5
Mouton: Nesciens Mater
Palestrina: Missa Assumpta est Maria
Purcell: Funeral Music for Queen Mary
Rossi, M: 10 Toccatas
Schütz: Geistliche Chormusik
Taverner: Western Wynde Mass

*1 nomination*
Agricola: Missa in myne zyn
Anon: Cant de la Sibilla
Anon: Edi beo thu, hevene quene
Anon: Venite a laudare
Ashwell: Missa Ave Maria
Bach, Johann Christoph: Ach, dass ich Wassers genug hatte (Lamento)
Bach, Johann Christoph: Meine Freundin, du bist schön
Binchois: Chansons (Triste plaisir, Dueil angoisseus)
Browne: Stabat juxta Christi crucem
Byrd: Cantiones sacrae II
Byrd: Songs of Sundry Natures
Cabezón: Obras de Música
Cavalieri: Rappresentatione di Anima, et di Corpo
Cavalli: Il Giasone
Cavalli: L'Artemisia
Cavalli: La Calisto
Dufay: Missa Ave regina caelorum
Dufay: Resvellies vous
Dunstable: Veni Sancte Spiritus
Ferrabosco: Lamentations
Ferrabosco: Peccantem me quotidie
Francesco da Milano: Fantasia No.55 "La piu bella & divina a che abbia fatto"
Gabrieli G: Symphoniae Sacrae II
Galilei, V: Libro d'intavolature di liuto
Gallus: Opus Musicum
Gautier de Coincy: Miracles of Notre Dame
Gombert: O, Jesu Christe a 6 (aka Sancta Maria)
Hildegard: Columba aspexit
Holborne: Pavans, Galliards and Almains
Isaac: Choralis Constantinus
Janequin: La bataille
Josquin: De profundis clamavi
Josquin: Qui belles amours
la Rue: Missa L'Homme armé
Landini: Ballate
Léonin: Magnus liber organi
Léonin: Viderunt omnes [this was Winterreiser's suggestion for a specific Léonin work, which I agree with]
Lully: Benedictus
Manchicourt: Missa Veni sancte spiritus
Merulo: Missa in dominicis diebus
Monteverdi: Il ritorno d'Ulisse in patria
Obrecht: Missa Maria Zart
Ockeghem: Missa Cuiusvis Toni
Ockeghem: Missa Ecce ancilla
Palestrina: Missa Hodie Christus natus est
Palestrina: Missa Repleatur os meum
Praetorius: Polyhymnia caduceatrix: Christ, unser Herr, zum Jordan kam
Richafort: Requiem
Rore: St John Passion
Shepherd: Media vita
Taverner: Dum transisset sabbatum
Titelouze: Hymnes de l'Église pour toucher sur l'orgue, avec les fugues et recherches sur leur plain-chant
Tye: Western Wynde Mass
Various: The Triumphs of Oriana
Vecchi: L'Amfiparnaso
White: Lamentations of Jeremiah
Willaert: Missa Mente tota


----------



## GreenMamba

Is Yatsuhasi Kengyo's Rokudan-no-shirabe out of bounds? I suppose this isn't really a World Music list, but I wouldn't mind one representative. And I like it a lot. I might nominate this at some point and see if it catches.






In other news:

Landini: Ballates were nominated. I wondered whether this wasn't too broad, but probably the only way (for a guy who was pretty important). Any objections?

Carissimi's Jephte. I'm not one to really push for early Baroque, but this is good.





Of the single nom works, I probably will now start supporting Léonin: Viderunt omnes, Landini: Ballates and Ashewell's Mass. Juts in case current supporters are ready to bail on them.


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## Winterreisender

How do people feel about getting on board with some renaissance lute music, a category so far neglected in the list.

Gaspar Sanz has received some support with his "Instruccion de musica sobre la guitarra española." Famously Rodrigo based his "Fantasía para un gentilhombre" on tunes from Sanz's collection. Here's a good complete recording of Sanz's "Instruccion" (and skip to 8:33 for the famous canario): 




I've tried to garner support for Johannes Hieronymus Kapsberger. Most recordings of this composer contain miscellaneous shorter pieces rather than the original collections in their entirity, so we might have to focus on individual pieces. So far I have nominated both his "Toccata arpeggiata" and his "Canario," both included in this recordings: 




And of course John Dowland is a master of lute music. His "Lachrimae" has already been enshrined, which contains parts for solo lute, but is mostly a chamber piece. Maybe the Dowland fans can rally around a specific lute piece? My personal favourite is the "Frog Galliard" but "Orlando Sleepeth" is also pretty


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## Nereffid

Regarding Landini, I had thought a single work should be picked. Otherwise "Ballate" corresponds to over 130 scattered pieces. The one I've noted down for future nomination is _Questa fanciull' Amor_, and tortkis has suggested _Conviens' a fede_, but of course there are other possibilities.

Lute music - yes, Sanz, Kapsberger, and Dowland all should have a chance, plus Francesco da Milano and Luis de Milán.


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## GioCar

I am definitely a supporter of Francesco da Milano, but the problem here is the same of Francesco Landini: so many scattered pieces over his whole life. I already nominated his _Fantasia No.55 "La piu bella & divina a che abbia fatto_ ("the most beautiful and divine I have ever made") as possibly it's his most weird/"avangarde" piece, but it's not receiving approvals. Maybe I should try with a different one. I'm thinking for example at his _Fantasia No.33 "sopra mi-fa-mi",_ an enjoyable piece which I also used to play on my guitar.

Hopkinson Smith recorded an amazing album, a collection of his most beautiful works:


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## Nereffid

GioCar said:


> I am definitely a supporter of Francesco da Milano, but the problem here is the same of Francesco Landini: so many scattered pieces over his whole life. I already nominated his _Fantasia No.55 "La piu bella & divina a che abbia fatto_ ("the most beautiful and divine I have ever made") as possibly it's his most weird/"avangarde" piece, but it's not receiving approvals. Maybe I should try with a different one. I'm thinking for example at his _Fantasia No.33 "sopra mi-fa-mi",_ an enjoyable piece which I also used to play on my guitar.


I for one am happy to support no.55, but there are so many other works that I also want to support that I just haven't got round to it yet. (That said, I was curious why no.55 in particular, so I'm glad you've explained!)

At the moment I have a list of 53 works (most but not all of them already nominated) I'd like to see enshrined, plus another 42 that should probably go on, as well as 22 more that I'd be OK with! And no doubt more suggestions will come along in subsequent rounds.

I'm sure at this stage we all have particular favourites whose lack of support is becoming frustrating, and the question is do we give up on them now or keep plugging away.

Perhaps those who are interested in a bit more coordination in the name of consensus could each repost the list of previously nominated works, highlighting the ones they'd definitely like to see enshrined? I could then parse the results into something meaningful.
(Note: I don't think this is _necessary_, because a good final list will be produced naturally by the current process, but I do think it would be an enhancement)


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## GioCar

It makes sense, so let's try what you suggest.
Here's the list of works I have previously nominated, of course without those already enshrined:

Caccini: Le nuove musiche (1602)
Cavalieri: Rappresentatione di Anima, et di Corpo (1600)
*Francesco da Milano:* Fantasia No.55 "La piu bella & divina a che abbia fatto" (ca 1550)
Gabrieli G.: Canzoni et Sonate (1615)
*Gabrieli G.: Symphoniae Sacrae II (1615)*
Gibbons: The Cries of London (1605-15)
Isaac: Choralis Constantinus (1555 posth)
Landini: Ballate
*Milán: El maestro (1536)*
*Monteverdi: Quinto libro de madrigali (1605)*
Peri: Euridice (1600)
Striggio: Missa sopra Ecco sì beato giorno (1565-66)
Sweelinck: Fantasia cromatica, SwWV 258

I have highlighted 4 I'd definitely like to see enshrined:
- I'd really like to see just the name of FdM in the final list, so I'm also open to consider a different piece if the Fantasia No.55 doesn't meet the taste of the others. The No.55 is anyway the one I like more because its "weirdness". 
- imo Gabrieli's Symphoniae Sacrae (issued in 1615) are superior than those of 1597, if anything, because _In Ecclesiis_ (possibly Gabrieli's pinnacle) belongs to that set of pieces.
- Milan's El maestro: written for the vihuela, it's the foundation of all music for guitar. Being myself an (amateur) guitarist...
- Monteverdi's 5th book: the turning point from Prima Pratica to Seconda Pratica...


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## pjang23

Froberger's harpsichord music should also be represented.

Seems like consensus has converged on 
Froberger: Suite XX in D, FbWV 620

famous for the composer's meditation on his own death in the first movement. I switched to another piece last round to see if I could drum up some support, but I will go back to this suite. Some other big hits are these two, written as lamentations on the deaths of two of his close friends.

Froberger: Lamentation faite sur la mort de Ferdinand III, FbWV 633
Froberger: Tombeau fait à Paris sur la mort de Monsieur Blancrocher, FbWV 632


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## GreenMamba

Nereffid said:


> Regarding Landini, I had thought a single work should be picked. Otherwise "Ballate" corresponds to over 130 scattered pieces. The one I've noted down for future nomination is _Questa fanciull' Amor_, and tortkis has suggested _Conviens' a fede_, but of course there are other possibilities.


If Youtube and recordings are any judge, Landini's "hit" seems to be Ecco la primavera. But there's no need to select that one.

Personally, I wouldn't mind if the final listing showed a couple of them."Landini Ballates (_Ecco la primavera_, _Questa fanciull' Amor_)." I'm nominating Binchois this way, although that's partly to leave options open until someone else seconds it.


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## Chordalrock

Anybody heard Manchicourt? A contemporary of Thomas Tallis, he was born 15 years earlier than Palestrina, part of what you could call the Height of Complexity generation during the Renaissance.






One of those composers whose textures would benefit from a less churchy rendering (this rendering isn't bad though).

Anyway, I think it would make some sense to focus on composers that haven't been represented yet, as it seems that the base level of attainment during the Renaissance at least was unusually high and the peaks were, in comparison, not as prominent as they later became - the music is always polyphonic, always sophisticated, composed by people who HAD to be very good at composition. Anybody who's tried to compose smooth polyphony knows how hard it is compared with writing melodies and accompaniment... Composers who weren't very, very talented never wrote a note during that era, and so we have only the very talented composers (I mean at least so far as sacred music is concerned).

(I guess focusing on the more obscure composers would be easier if the list was purely about Renaissance or purely about early Baroque. Currently it seems like some people just prefer the more modern sound of early Baroque and are nominating such works, or don't care for early Baroque and are avoiding such works, and maybe some more obscure composers aren't getting enough attention as a result since there's this division, in addition to more subtle differences of taste.)

Of course there's also the huge task of listening to works when people nominate them, which becomes more so in relation to more obscure works, at least psychologically. Not sure it wouldn't be better if the last 20 or so works were simply decided one-work per person, then voted on for the exact ordering on the list... Too late for this kind of discussion I guess.


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## Nereffid

Chordalrock said:


> Of course there's also the huge task of listening to works when people nominate them, which becomes more so in relation to more obscure works, at least psychologically. Not sure it wouldn't be better if the last 20 or so works were simply decided one-work per person, then voted on for the exact ordering on the list... Too late for this kind of discussion I guess.


I'm not going to change the rules now. However some among us (I include myself) might feel about what _should_ be on the list, ultimately it will be a reflection of our collected tastes & interests.
The whole point is to find consensus, so whatever our personal preferences we should also be thinking about what others want to see on the list. The question is always whether one's unsupported nomination will prove to be trailblazing or merely flogging a dead horse!


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## Chordalrock

As long as we don't reach a situation where all works are getting only 1 to 2 nominations or something I guess it'll be fine.


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## sloth

*Vecchi: L'Amfiparnaso*
*Banchieri: Barca di Venetia per Padova *

one of these two works should imho make the list in representation of the madrigal comedy genre...


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## Nereffid

Some figures about nominations and consensus (or lack of!):

The number of people participating in the nomination rounds has been slowly falling: 32, 22, 21, 21, 18, 17, 16.
12 of us have participated in every single nomination and voting round, and 4 others have only missed 3 or fewer.

The average number of unique nominations per person has been increasing: 5, 6, 5, 5.5, 7, 6.5, 7.
(In round 7, the number of works each individual nominated that nobody else supported ranged from 0 to 9)
The % of works that only get 1 nomination has remained quite steady, varying from 50 to 58%.

So far, 5 has been the minimum number of nominations for getting into the voting round.
The number of works getting at least 5 nominations has dropped: 23, 20, 23, 24, 15, 13, 14.
The number of works getting at least 4 nominations had similarly fallen but perked up in round 7: 30, 27, 30, 29, 18, 18, 24.

The average number of works each person has nominated that has gone on to the voting round: 6, 6, 5, 5.5, 4.5, 5.5, 4.5.

It's hard to predict how future rounds will go, but I think (despite a few slightly concerning figures) it's reasonable to assume that we have enough participants and enough cooperation to last a few rounds beyond the 10th. I wouldn't be surprised if works went on to the voting round with only 4 nominations, however - maybe this will happen as early as the next round.
Certainly I see no reason to make any change to the system before we reach #100. I can't say for sure whether my changes to the nomination system have been an actual improvement, but it's worked the way I intended it to, anyway.
Perhaps after round 10 we might change our approach to ensure that individual favourites don't get ignored, or perhaps it won't be necessary; I suggest a pause for discussion at that point.


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## SimonNZ

I agree that its largely past the point of trying to get support for a work if you're still the only one pushing it, and it would be more efficient to as much as possible throw support behind the nominations of others.


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## tdc

SimonNZ said:


> I agree that its largely past the point of trying to get support for a work if you're still the only one pushing it, and it would be more efficient to as much as possible throw support behind the nominations of others.


There are certain works I like that will remain on my list regardless of whether or not anyone else votes for them and this is ok with me. I don't do this in an attempt to try to get support necessarily as much at this point as to list the works I am most supportive of. Regardless of whether anyone else votes for them it is an indicator of what I like, and what I feel deserves to be on the list and I like to show my continued support and loyalty for these works. I don't have a problem with others not voting for them, but it feels disingenuine to me to alter the works I love that make my list just because no one else in this small group of people are currently supporting them. I think there are also lurkers that may check out works we list in the process. The final list is important to me, but so is the one I make each and every round which I feel should be reflective of my tastes, not the over all tastes of this small group of people.

*Edit* - that said I've learned about a lot of great music through this process and I try to support those new discoveries too. Its kind of a balance.


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## Nereffid

I have no problem with people continuing to support favourite works that don't seem to stand a chance - I do it myself. But of course the more an individual focuses on those such works, the less influence they have on how the list turns out, which is also why I think everyone should use their 15 nominations. As long as nobody avoids supporting other people's nominations while simultaneously complaining that there's not enough consensus, I don't mind!


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## GreenMamba

As this process goes on, my list of works I'd like to support becomes longer. I thought I'd struggle to find 15, but it's closer to the opposite. So failure to support in the past shouldn't suggest failure to support in the future.

This thread is a pretty good place to declare future interest in works that are currently single nom.

E.g., Vecchi or Banchieri are on my list of something to support soon. I mentioned Ashewell earlier. de Rore. Taverner's Western Wynde mass (I think I like it better than Tye's, which for me trumps the fact that Tye isn't represented yet).

The catch is, once I get around to them, will the original nominators have abandoned them?


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## MagneticGhost

GreenMamba said:


> I mentioned Ashewell earlier. de Rore. Taverner's Western Wynde mass (I think I like it better than Tye's, which for me trumps the fact that Tye isn't represented yet).
> 
> The catch is, once I get around to them, will the original nominators have abandoned them?


I have nominated Ashwell and Taverner's WWM for the last few rounds and I am not likely to abandon them.
I try to keep a mix of pieces I love whilst also supporting a few other nominations. I'm pleased with how the whole project is progressing. There is plenty for me to explore whilst also quite a few of my favourite pieces represented in the mix.


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## tortkis

Nereffid said:


> Regarding Landini, I had thought a single work should be picked. Otherwise "Ballate" corresponds to over 130 scattered pieces. The one I've noted down for future nomination is _Questa fanciull' Amor_, and tortkis has suggested _Conviens' a fede_, but of course there are other possibilities.





GreenMamba said:


> If Youtube and recordings are any judge, Landini's "hit" seems to be Ecco la primavera. But there's no need to select that one.
> 
> Personally, I wouldn't mind if the final listing showed a couple of them."Landini Ballates (_Ecco la primavera_, _Questa fanciull' Amor_)." I'm nominating Binchois this way, although that's partly to leave options open until someone else seconds it.


I saw this nomination.

Landini: Ballate (Ecco la primavera, Conviens' a fede)​
If I nominate as following, will it be counted together with the above? Unfair? Not sure...

Landini: Ballate (Ecco la primavera, Conviens' a fede, Questa fanciull' Amor)​
According to Wikipedia, Landini composed

eighty-nine ballate for two voices
forty-two ballate for three voices
another nine which exist in both two and three-voice versions
a smaller number of madrigals

I cannot find a good grouping of subset of his music. Squarcialupi Codex contains most of his works, but it's too broad, and I cannot support a collection of works I have not heard its entirety.


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## GreenMamba

I would be willing to alter my Landini wording next time to be in synch with yours. I was just throwing out a couple songs to give people a starting point.


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## Nereffid

It seems like a bit of a "cheat" to make a very broad recommendation while simultaneously making several specific recommendations, but hey, our game, our rules! I'll amend the Landini wording to incorporate the 3 suggestions.


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## sloth

Actually, Landini has to be on the list... I think we should consider Landini's Ballate as a whole. A single ballata couldn't compete with a manuscript or a mass in being representative of a style or of an author. Just my opinion here


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## GreenMamba

Nereffid said:


> It seems like a bit of a "cheat" to make a very broad recommendation while simultaneously making several specific recommendations, but hey, our game, our rules! I'll amend the Landini wording to incorporate the 3 suggestions.


OK, maybe that's not the way to do it. But as we've discussed, Ballate on the whole seems too broad. But just one song seems too narrow. What if someone doesn't like that one?

_Landini: Ecco la primavera, Conviens' a fede, Questa fanciull' Amor (ballates)_

sloth: the concern is, someone receiving the recommendation might not want to dive in for all those songs, so give them a few to sample. If they like them, they can easily expand. But maybe that leads us to the wording we have now.


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## Nereffid

Nominations in Round 7:

*5 or 6 nominations (went to voting round):*
Peri: Euridice
Adam de la Halle: Jeu de Robin et Marion
Buxtehude: Toccata in D minor, BuxWV 155
Dowland: First Booke of Songes

_Note that the Buxtehude and Dowland have now twice failed to be enshrined. Also, the low turnout in voting round 7 meant that the Peri actually got fewer votes than it did nominations!_

*4 nominations:*
Anon: Le Manuscrit du Roi - Estampies & Danses Royales
Bernart de Ventadorn: Can vei la lauzeta mover
Gibbons: Cries of London
Isaac: Missa de Apostolis
Lassus: Penitential Psalms
Léonin: Viderunt omnes
Milán: El Maestro
Monteverdi: Madrigals, Book 5
Sanz: Instrucción de Música sobre la Guitarra Española
Schütz: Weihnachtshistorie

*3 nominations:*
Anon: Codex las Huelgas
Biber: Requiem a 15 in A
Buxtehude: Jubilate Domino, BuxWV 64
Clemens: Missa Pastores quidnam vidistis
Dufay: Missa Se la face ay pale
Gallus: Opus Musicum
Josquin: Miserere mei Deus
Landini: Ballate (Ecco la primavera, Conviens' a fede, Questa fanciull' Amor)
Mouton: Nesciens Mater
Richafort: Requiem

*2 nominations:*
Agricola: Missa in myne zyn
Anon: Codex Calixtinus
Bach, Johann Christoph: Ach, dass ich Wassers genug hatte (Lamento)
Bull: In Nomine IX (for keyboard)
Buxtehude: Ciacona in C, BuxWV 159
Caldara: Maddalena ai piedi di Cristo
Cavalli: Il Giasone
Francesco da Milano: Fantasia No.55 "La piu bella & divina a che abbia fatto"
Gabrieli G: In ecclesiis
Gombert: Media vita a 6
Lobo: Requiem for 6 voices
Manchicourt: Missa Veni sancte spiritus
Monteverdi: Il ritorno d'Ulisse in patria
Obrecht: Missa Maria Zart
Praetorius: Christ, unser Herr, zum Jordan kam (from Polyhymnia caduceatrix)
Rossi, M: 10 Toccatas
Tye: Western Wynde Mass
White: Lamentations of Jeremiah

*1 nomination:*
Adam de la Halle: De ma dame vient
Anon: Cant de la Sibilla
Anon: Codex Faenza
Anon: Edi beo thu, hevene quene
Anon: Missa in Dedicatione Ecclesiae
Anon: Sumer is icumen in
Anon: Venite a laudare
Ashwell: Missa Ave Maria
Bach, Johann Christoph: Meine Freundin, du bist schön
Banchieri: Barca di Venetia per Padova
Binchois: Chansons (Triste plaisir, Dueil angoisseus)
Browne: Stabat juxta Christi crucem
Buxtehude: Praeludium in F Sharp Minor BuxWV 146
Cabezón: Obras de Música
Cavalieri: Rappresentatione di Anima, et di Corpo
Cavalli: L'Artemisia
Cavalli: La Calisto
Ciconia: Una panthera
Codax: Cantigas de amigo
Dowland: Tarleton's Resurrection
Dufay: Missa Ave regina caelorum
Dufay: Resvellies vous
Dunstable: Missa Rex seculorum
Dunstable: Veni Sancte Spiritus
Ferrabosco: Lamentations
Galilei, V: Libro d'intavolature di liuto
Gautier de Coincy: Miracles of Notre Dame
Gombert: O, Jesu Christe a 6 (aka Sancta Maria)
Guerrero: Missa de la batalla escoutez
Hildegard: Columba aspexit
Isaac: Choralis Constantinus
Isaac: Innsbruck, ich muss dich lassen
Janequin: Les cris de Paris
Josquin: Missa Gaudeamus
Josquin: Salve regina a 5
Kassia: The Troparion of Kassiani
la Rue: Missa L'Homme armé
Landini: Una colomba candida
Lassus: Cantiones sacrae a 6 (1594)
Lassus: Requiem a 5
Lully: Benedictus
Machaut: Douce dame jolie
Machaut: Je vivroie liement
Merulo: Missa in dominicis diebus
Mouton: Missa Dictes moy toutes voz pensées
Narváez: Los seys libros del delphín
Ockeghem: Missa Cuiusvis Toni
Palestrina: Missa Assumpta est Maria
Palestrina: Missa Repleatur os meum
Purcell: Funeral Music for Queen Mary
Schütz: Geistliche Chormusik
Shepherd: Media vita
Tallis: If ye love me
Taverner: Western Wynde Mass
Titelouze: Hymnes de l'Église pour toucher sur l'orgue, avec les fugues et recherches sur leur plain-chant
Various: The Triumphs of Oriana
Vecchi: L'Amfiparnaso
Victoria: Missa Salve a 8
Vitry: Motets
Willaert: Missa Mente tota


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## GioCar

There are no pieces for solo lute in our list so far, and that's quite weird since the lute was the most popular instrument in the Renaissance.
I have nominated a few of them (beside my Francesco da Milano who's not getting much support ) by Bacheler, Dowland and Joan Ambrosio Dalza.
For those who are unfamiliar with Dalza, here's an amazing album by Naxos


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## sloth

We all forgot about Merula...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tarquinio_Merula

baroque avantgarde


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## Nereffid

sloth said:


> We all forgot about Merula...
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tarquinio_Merula
> 
> baroque avantgarde


Have I never nominated that? I certainly intended to at some point!


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## Nereffid

These are the works that were nominated in Round 8. 
As might be expected at this stage of the game, there's quite a high number of works that were just a single nomination away from the voting round (11 of them). Meanwhile, the proportion of works that only got one nomination remains above 50%.

*5 or 6 nominations (went to voting round):*
Anon: Le Manuscrit du Roi - Estampies & Danses Royales
Clemens: Missa Pastores quidnam vidistis
Milán: El Maestro
Monteverdi: Il ritorno d'Ulisse in patria
Schütz: Weihnachtshistorie

*4 nominations:*
Adam de la Halle: Jeu de Robin et Marion
Agricola: Missa in myne zyn
Anon: Codex Calixtinus
Bernart de Ventadorn: Can vei la lauzeta mover
Biber: Requiem a 15 in A
Buxtehude: Toccata in D minor, BuxWV 155
Gibbons: Cries of London
Josquin: Miserere mei Deus
Manchicourt: Missa Veni sancte spiritus
Mouton: Nesciens Mater
Purcell: Funeral Music for Queen Mary
*
3 nominations:*
Buxtehude: Jubilate Domino, BuxWV 64
Gallus: Opus Musicum
Rossi, M: 10 Toccatas
Taverner: Western Wynde Mass
Tye: Western Wynde Mass
*
2 nominations:*
Ashwell: Missa Ave Maria
Bach, Johann Christoph: Ach, dass ich Wassers genug hatte (Lamento)
Bull: In Nomine IX (for keyboard)
Buxtehude: Ciacona in C, BuxWV 159
Caldara: Maddalena ai piedi di Cristo
Cavalli: Il Giasone
Ciconia: Una panthera
Gombert: Media vita a 6
Isaac: Innsbruck, ich muss dich lassen
Lobo: Requiem for 6 voices
Machaut: Je vivroie liement
Monteverdi: Madrigals, Book 5
Obrecht: Missa Maria Zart
Praetorius: Christ, unser Herr, zum Jordan kam (from Polyhymnia caduceatrix)
Schütz: Geistliche Chormusik
Vecchi: L'Amfiparnaso
White: Lamentations of Jeremiah

*1 nomination:*
Anon: Cant de la Sibilla
Anon: Codex Faenza
Anon: Edi beo thu, hevene quene
Anon: Missa in Dedicatione Ecclesiae
Anon: Venite a laudare
Bach, Johann Christoph: Meine Freundin, du bist schön
Bacheler: Monsieurs Almaine
Banchieri: Barca di Venetia per Padova
Bartholomeus de Bononia: Morir desio
Binchois: Chansons (Triste plaisir, Dueil angoisseus)
Browne: Stabat juxta Christi crucem
Busnois: Missa L'homme armé
Buxtehude: Te Deum laudamus
Byrd: Infelix ego
Byrd: The Great Service
Cabezón: Obras de Música
Cavalieri: Rappresentatione di Anima, et di Corpo
Cavalli: L'Artemisia
Cavalli: La Calisto
Codax: Cantigas de amigo
Dalza: Pieces from Petrucci's "Intabulatura de lauto libro quarto"
Dowland: Tarleton's Resurrection
Dufay: Missa Ave regina caelorum
Dufay: Resvellies vous
Dunstable: Missa Rex seculorum
Dunstable: Veni Sancte Spiritus
Ferrabosco: Lamentations
Francesco da Milano: Fantasia No.55 "La piu bella & divina a che abbia fatto"
Froberger: Lamentation faite sur la mort de Ferdinand III, FbWV 633
Galilei, V: Libro d'intavolature di liuto
Gautier de Coincy: Miracles of Notre Dame
Guerrero: Missa de la batalla escoutez
Hildegard: Columba aspexit
Isaac: Choralis Constantinus
Janequin: Les cris de Paris
Kassia: The Troparion of Kassiani
la Rue: Missa L'Homme armé
Lassus: Cantiones sacrae a 6 (1594)
Lassus: Requiem a 5
Lully: Benedictus
Machaut: Douce dame jolie
Merulo: Missa in dominicis diebus
Mouton: Missa Dictes moy toutes voz pensées
Mudarra: Fantasia No.10 (Fantasia que contrahaze la harpa en la manera de Ludovico Obras para Guitarra)
Palestrina: Missa Assumpta est Maria
Palestrina: Missa Repleatur os meum
Rore: Missa Praeter rerum seriem
Shepherd: Media vita
Titelouze: Hymnes de l'Église pour toucher sur l'orgue, avec les fugues et recherches sur leur plain-chant
Victoria: Missa O quam gloriosum
Victoria: Missa Salve a 8
Vitry: Motets
Willaert: Missa Mente tota
Wylkynson: Salve Regina


----------



## GreenMamba

sloth said:


> We all forgot about Merula...
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tarquinio_Merula
> 
> baroque avantgarde


Alternative work from Merula (although I will grant 'sopra alla nanna' its popularity).






I don't think these are from the same opus number, even though you can find them on the same album.


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## Nereffid

Just been doing a bit of research and I read that Caldara's _Maddalena ai piedi di Cristo_ was composed "around 1700". I'm not saying we should drop it for being too late, but for my part I'm less likely to support it when there are so many earlier works being nominated.


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## Trout

IMSLP dates the Caldara as "1698?" and I've seen other sources date it anywhere between 1697 and 1700. It's your decision, but I definitely believe it deserves attention and if not this project, then I'm not sure when.


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## sloth

No Stradella yet? How can that be!

I'll suggest the oratorio S. Giovanni Battista:











two version of the beautiful Salome's aria


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## GreenMamba

Gallus (aka Handl): Opus Musicum. Isn't this massive? 300+ motets? I voted for it anyway, and it appears most of them aren't available in recordings, so it won't be overwhelming.

Guerrero's Ave virgo sanctissima is just one motet. I've heard people refer to his Marian motets, but I don't think that's a real category (just that he wrote a lot about the Virgin Mary).






Last, it looks like Schein's Fontana d'Israel was nominated a long time ago. Just when I catch up to it, people are switching to the instrumental Banchetto musicale. I'll have to check that out.


----------



## Nereffid

I'll reveal the top 100 in a few hours, but *I don't want to have an 11th round until we have a discussion on how much further we want to go.*

Speaking as both a regular participant and the game-runner, I'd like to settle on a fixed number of rounds rather than just carry on indefinitely.

First, let me note that:
- There seems now to be a core of 14 participants (although only 9 of us have nominated and voted in every round).
- The minimum number of nominations for qualification for the voting round remains at 5, but only 11 works managed it in round 10.

The smaller these numbers, the more arbitrary the results become. I find I've reached the point that I usually reach in these games, where the consensus sometimes seems to be based on whim rather than any other particular reason. Because I'm tracking all the nominations this has become more obvious. As an extreme example: from round 1 to round 8, a total of 2,388 nominations were made, and not a single one of them was for Merula's _Curtio precipitato_; and yet it topped the voting in round 9. I'm glad it's in, but a result like that must be frustrating for those who keep nominating the same work every round without ever getting support. It's things like that which made me want a "long list" and discussion in the first place. And it's also important to note that there are some works which have garnered plenty of support and could in theory have already been enshrined, but they didn't get enough nominations in any one round. I'll post a list of those later.

So I think the knowledge that there's a finite and fixed number of places left on the list might (_might!_) prompt a reflection on what's missing and on what our own personal priorities are. When voting round 10 officially closes, I'll also post the top 100 alphabetically by composer, and chronologically.

My comments about "arbitrary" results above are from my perspective as a participant. My views as game-runner are more neutral - the procedure itself has worked well without needing any tweaks, and even if future rounds have less consensus, the method can cope; but a fixed end point would provide clarity. After the final round we could have some other process for the "honourable mentions".

Also, in 6 weeks' time I'll be on holidays! So it would be nice to not leave everyone hanging. (That's 4 more rounds on a 10-day nomination/voting cycle, or 5 on an 8-day cycle, or 6 on a weekly cycle if we don't mind speeding it up a bit.)


----------



## SimonNZ

Another possibility:

After the first 100 we take a break for a specified amount of time (eg 6 months) to let people digest the enshrined works, think more about works they'd forgotten, do more listening leading from those by similar composers, similar times or places or wherever the road takes them. Then at the end of that time proceed to do 101-200. 

This might also allow for the spectators of the current rounds to investigate the nominated works, and become active participants after a longer unhurried stretch of listening.

But I'll roll with whatever.


----------



## Nereffid

That's an interesting idea, and in an ideal world I'd support it. But given that there's no particular evidence that we put that amount of work into producing the first 100, it's unlikely that such work would be done to produce the second 100. TBH it's also likely that in 6 months time another game-runner would be needed.


----------



## Chordalrock

Nereffid said:


> That's an interesting idea, and in an ideal world I'd support it. But given that there's no particular evidence that we put that amount of work into producing the first 100, it's unlikely that such work would be done to produce the second 100.


I tend to agree with this. Maybe do the list until 120 or 130 if that doesn't seem like too strange a number to stop at; just enough to let people promote their favorites or discoveries for a few more rounds and see what happens. Or leave it at 100...


----------



## GreenMamba

125 is a good list length, although it would require a round of 5 (or 15). I would be OK with modifications for the final rounds. No new works nominated? Fewer noms, to force us to focus on what we really think should be included? Only un-represented composers?



Nereffid said:


> The smaller these numbers, the more arbitrary the results become. I find I've reached the point that I usually reach in these games, where the consensus sometimes seems to be based *on whim *rather than any other particular reason. Because I'm tracking all the nominations this has become more obvious. *As an extreme example: from round 1 to round 8, a total of 2,388 nominations were made, and not a single one of them was for Merula's Curtio precipitato; and yet it topped the voting in round 9. *I'm glad it's in, but a result like that *must be frustrating for those who keep nominating the same work every round without ever getting support.* It's things like that which made me want a "long list" and discussion in the first place. And it's also important to note that there are some works which have garnered plenty of support and could in theory have already been enshrined, but they didn't get enough nominations in any one round. I'll post a list of those later.


I'm not sure this is evidence of "on a whim." An alternative explanation is that people weren't familiar with Merula's work, but once hearing it, they knew it deserved to be there. People aren't just voting for the whoever's turn is next (a problem with other exercises).

I believe Merula was pushed by a late joiner. Would have been nice if he's been with us from the start, but what are you going to do?

I agree that we could have made more use of this thread and done more prep work, but I think that is just never going to happen. Indeed, the defense of the process is that it's a good way to learn more about this music. People don't want to do all the leg work ahead of time.


----------



## GreenMamba

On the list itself, it's becoming more dominated by Early Baroque than at first. Biber is tied with Ockeghem for second most works! I wouldn't have guessed, but maybe that's on me.

(EDIT: looking at it more closely, a fair number of our 1600s composers are still Renaissance). 

Following my above suggestion, maybe we start thinking about composers conspicuous in their absence. If I were to pick one guy I'd say Cipriano de Rore. He's a madrigal guy, but it's his (wonderful) mass that has gotten the most traction.


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## Nereffid

Here's a list of 18 works that, over the 10 nomination rounds, have received the support of 4 or more people but have not been enshrined:

9: Hildegard: Symphonia armonie celestium revelationum (or part of it)
7: Josquin: Miserere mei Deus
7: Taverner: Western Wynde Mass
6: Manchicourt: Missa Veni sancte spiritus
6: Schütz: Geistliche Chormusik
5: Rore: Missa Praeter rerum seriem
5: Tye: Western Wynde Mass
4: Banchieri: Barca di Venetia per Padova
4: Bull: In Nomine IX (for keyboard)
4: Caldara: Maddalena ai piedi di Cristo
4: Dunstable: Veni Sancte Spiritus
4: Janequin: Les Chant des Oyseaulx
4: Lobo: Requiem for 6 voices
4: Machaut: Je vivroie liement
4: Monteverdi: Madrigals, Book 5
4: Palestrina: Missa Assumpta est Maria
4: Rossi, M: 10 Toccatas
4: Vecchi: L'Amfiparnaso

Notice that not all of these are currently in the running.

Another 37 works have been nominated by 2 or 3 people over the course of at least 3 rounds (I haven't bothered counting the more ephemeral nominations), and a further 34 works have been nominated by 1 person at least 3 times but haven't received anyone else's support.

A reasonable case can be made that the 18 listed above deserve to be enshrined sooner rather than later, which doesn't leave much space if we're limiting ourselves to 2 or 3 more rounds. Or perhaps we could carry on as normal for those 2 or 3 rounds, and then have a big vote on all the well-supported works that haven't yet made it in. But I'm also curious about the lesser-supported works, because I'm sure I'm not alone in wanting to support them but not yet getting round to it... perhaps we could have a _third_ stage of voting to deal with them. That would be a reasonable time to take the break suggested by SimonNZ.


----------



## GreenMamba

_ Or perhaps we could carry on as normal for those 2 or 3 rounds, and then have a big vote on all the well-supported works that haven't yet made it in._

I'd support this idea. Or maybe raise the cutoff to 5 for the 'must make it' list. I feel bad for the Hildegard piece because most supporters probably dropped out, so that's just bad luck. On the other hand, I've pushed Rossi and Bull but wouldn't feel heartbroken if they didn't make it.


----------



## Chordalrock

GreenMamba said:


> _ Or perhaps we could carry on as normal for those 2 or 3 rounds, and then have a big vote on all the well-supported works that haven't yet made it in._
> 
> I'd support this idea.


Yeah, I don't have any problems with that idea. The only question, I think, would be whether we want to make the list that long when the process that is producing the list may not be all that effective (I mean effective at creating a list that reflects rational choices beyond the 100 cut-off point, or at all). The more arbitrary the pieces on that list become, the less weight the list will have in the minds of those who use it. But eh, maybe that's not a problem, or would be a problem either way for a portion of users.


----------



## GioCar

I believe we made quite an effective list so far, and I tend to agree with the above comment whether beyond the 100 cut-off point the process is still the best one to produce significative results...
I'm more in favour of just focusing on the already supported works - supported by at least two/three posters i.e. the nominator and at least one/two posters.

Unfortunately at the end of this week I'll have to quit the project for the following 10-12 days...


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## Nereffid

There's been less involvement in this discussion than I'd hoped (_as usual!_ he muttered cynically). I'll try to round up the other participants, but in the meantime it seems that the general consensus is that we wrap up the project sooner rather than later.

How about this: we go for 2 more rounds, basically as normal, and then we have one final voting extravaganza in which we combine all the works that didn't quite make it with some of each participant's own favourites (perhaps each person can pick 3 unique pieces) to bring the total up to 150 or some appropriate reflection of the number of works involved.


----------



## tortkis

As per Nereffid's request, I would like to express my opinion, which is 'no opinion.' I have no objection to any of the suggestions above, each seems to have its own merit.

In any case, I would appreciate it very much if the data like this (works with few nominations) or this (chronological list/statistics) will be shared at the end. I am interested in works recommended enthusiastically by one or few members as much as works supported by many.


----------



## Nereffid

I'll try to get an "everything that's ever been nominated" list done within the next few days so that we can all remind ourselves of works we might have forgotten about.


----------



## tdc

I don't have too much of an opinion on how we finish off the list but would prefer if the last rounds aren't done radically different from the way we've done the list so far, but either way I will likely continue until the end. 

However, if its decided we take a longer break before finishing the list there is a chance I won't be around. It can be hard to predict my schedule and sometimes I take some time off TC.


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## D Smith

Per Nereffid's request I don't have a strong opinion as the how things should proceed. I'm at the limit of my familiarity with this period now as it is and look forward to many enjoyable hours of listening to the 100 works already on the list. If the list continues I'll participate as much as I can. I agree with TDC that I'd hope things aren't changed too much from how they went before.


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## Trout

I also don't really mind too much as to what happens from here, though I agree that we should continue for at least a few more rounds. I've caught up a bit on my listening so I plan to support some of the pieces that barely missed the past few voting rounds with my many new free slots. 150 sounds like a reasonable number to stop at (or 169 if we wanted to be clever...).

By the way, I believe I have a list of all nominated pieces up until now that I have been using for my own personal listening project if would be of interest.


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## StDior

If the project goes on, I continue to participate. My schedule is also unpredictable, some missing is possible. I agree that no need for radical changes in the voting method.


----------



## MagneticGhost

I think we can carry on as we are for a little bit longer yet. 150/169 sounds good.


----------



## Nereffid

OK, what I've got from all this is that we should continue as we are for a while, and wrap it up somewhere around the 150-170 area.

I've produced a list of 213 works that have been nominated but not yet enshrined, to be posted below. Of these, 32 have received support from at least 3 people, another 39 have been supported by 2 people, and the remaining 142 have only been supported by one person. (But it's worth bearing in mind that many of these works haven't received any support in recent rounds, or have been supported by people who aren't participating now).

*I propose that we carry on for 3 rounds as normal, which we can start right away.*
After that, we could wrap things up quickly in a single round by selecting a final 20-40 (or more!) from _all_ the not-yet-enshrined works, the final number being simply determined by how many works get a good level of support; this would allow everyone to support whatever works they never got to in previous rounds. Previously unloved works may yet be enshrined.

So, if there are works or even composers that haven't yet made an appearance, you have 3 more rounds in which to nominate them. 
Don't feel obliged when nominating to focus on those works that have already received high support, _but_ if you have been nominating works that have been getting no support, they'll still stand a chance in the final big "round 14" vote, so it might be worth changing your nominations to support other more potentially successful works you like.


----------



## Nereffid

Here's the list of all the works that have been nominated over the 10 rounds but not yet enshrined.
I've made a few edits for clarity, dropped a few things (such as specific Landini works), and combined a few others (such as Hildegard's nominations).
There are 2 numbers in front of each work: the number of different people who have nominated the work, followed by the number of rounds in which the work has been nominated. I've bolded anything with at least 3 supporters.

1 (1): Adam de la Halle: De ma dame vient
2 (6): Anon: Cant de la Sibilla
1 (4): Anon: Codex Faenza
2 (2): Anon: Codex Montpellier
1 (2): Anon: Dances from Add. MS 29987
2 (4): Anon: Edi beo thu, hevene quene
1 (3): Anon: Ludus Danielis
1 (2): Anon: Missa in Dedicatione Ecclesiae
1 (1): Anon: Ne m'oubliez mie
1 (1): Anon: Roman de Fauvel
1 (1): Anon: Salve virgo virginum
1 (1): Anon: Stillat in stellum radium
1 (1): Anon: Sumer is icumen in
1 (10): Anon: Venite a laudare
1 (1): Arañés: Chacona
2 (9): Bach, Johann Christoph: Ach, dass ich Wassers genug hatte (Lamento)
2 (5): Bach, Johann Christoph: Meine Freundin, du bist schön
1 (3): Bacheler: Monsieurs Almaine
*4 (6): Banchieri: Barca di Venetia per Padova*
1 (7): Bartholomeus de Bononia: Morir desio
1 (1): Bernart de Ventadorn: La Dousa vota
1 (5): Binchois: Chansons (Triste plaisir, Dueil angoisseus)
1 (8): Browne: Stabat juxta Christi crucem
1 (2): Brumel: Missa de beata virgine
*4 (7): Bull: In Nomine IX (for keyboard)*
1 (1): Busnois: Missa L'homme armé
1 (2): Busnois: Missa O crux lignum
2 (7): Buxtehude: Ciacona in C, BuxWV 159
*3 (7): Buxtehude: Jubilate Domino, BuxWV 64*
1 (1): Buxtehude: Nun freut euch, lieben Christen g'mei, BuxWV 210
1 (1): Buxtehude: Organ works
2 (2): Buxtehude: Passcaglia in D minor, BuxWV 161
2 (7): Buxtehude: Praeludium in F Sharp Minor BuxWV 146
*3 (7): Buxtehude: Te Deum laudamus*
1 (1): Byrd: Ave verum corpus
*3 (6): Byrd: Cantiones sacrae II (Infelix ego)*
1 (3): Byrd: Pavanes and Galliards
1 (6): Byrd: Songs of Sundry Natures
2 (2): Byrd: The Great Service
2 (8): Cabezón: Obras de Música
*4 (8): Caldara: Maddalena ai piedi di Cristo
4 (8): Cavalieri: Rappresentatione di Anima, et di Corpo*
2 (10): Cavalli: Il Giasone
1 (4): Cavalli: Il rapimento d'Helena
1 (10): Cavalli: L'Artemisia
2 (10): Cavalli: La Calisto
*3 (4): Ciconia: Una panthera
3 (9): Codax: Cantigas de amigo*
1 (3): Dalza: Pieces from Petrucci's "Intabulatura de lauto libro quarto"
1 (1): Dowland: Fantasias & Pavans for lute
1 (1): Dowland: Farewell Fancy
1 (4): Dowland: Tarleton's Resurrection
1 (1): Dowland: The Frog Galliard
2 (3): Dufay: Ecclesie militantis
1 (1): Dufay: Fulgens iubar ecclesiae dei - Puerpera, pura parens
1 (5): Dufay: Missa Ave regina caelorum
1 (1): Dufay: O gemma lux
1 (9): Dufay: Resvellies vous
2 (4): Dufay: Salve flos Tusce gentis
1 (2): Dunstable: Missa Rex seculorum
*4 (5): Dunstable: Veni Sancte Spiritus*
1 (1): Etienne de Liège
2 (4): Farina: Capriccio stravagante
1 (1): Fayrfax: Missa O quam glorifica
1 (5): Ferrabosco: Lamentations
1 (5): Ferrabosco: Peccantem me quotidie
1 (1): Ferrabosco: Salmo 103
2 (9): Francesco da Milano: Fantasia No.55 "La piu bella & divina a che abbia fatto"
1 (4): Frescobaldi: Capriccios
1 (1): Frescobaldi: Il secondo libro di toccate
2 (1): Frescobaldi: Toccatas and Partitas
1 (1): Froberger: Lamentation faite sur la mort de Ferdinand III, FbWV 633
1 (1): Froberger: Suite XXX in A minor, FbWV 630
1 (1): Froberger: Suites
1 (1): Froberger: Tombeau fait à Paris sur la mort de Monsieur Blancrocher, FbWV 632
1 (1): Gabrieli G: Canzoni e Sonate
2 (1): Gabrieli G: In ecclesiis
1 (5): Galilei, V: Libro d'intavolature di liuto
1 (1): Gesualdo: Madrigals, Book 2
2 (1): Gesualdo: Miserere
1 (2): Gesualdo: Tribulationem et dolorem
1 (1): Gibbons: This is the Record of John
*3 (3): Gombert: Magnificats (8)*
2 (2): Gombert: Missa Media vita
1 (5): Gombert: O, Jesu Christe a 6 (aka Sancta Maria)
1 (2): Gombert: Peccata mea a 6
1 (1): Gombert: Tribulatio et angustia
*4 (1): Guerrero: Ave virgo sanctissima*
1 (2): Guerrero: Missa de la batalla escoutez
1 (1): Henry VIII: Pastyme with Good Companye
*9 (6): Hildegard: Symphonia armonie celestium revelationum (or some part of it)*
1 (2): Holborne: Pavans, Galliards and Almains
1 (1): Hume: Captain Humes Poeticall Musicke
1 (5): Isaac: Choralis Constantinus
1 (4): Isaac: Innsbruck, ich muss dich lassen
1 (1): Isaac: Virgo prudentissima
2 (4): Janequin: La bataille
*4 (1): Janequin: Les Chant des Oyseaulx*
2 (5): Janequin: Les cris de Paris
1 (1): Jarzebski: Canzoni é Concerti
1 (1): Johnson: Carmen's Whistle
1 (1): Josquin: Absalon Fili mi
2 (2): Josquin: Ave Maria... Virgo serena
1 (3): Josquin: De profundis clamavi
1 (1): Josquin: Mille regretz
*7 (10): Josquin: Miserere mei Deus*
1 (1): Josquin: Missa Gaudeamus
1 (1): Josquin: Missa Malheur me bat
2 (6): Josquin: Nymphes des bois
1 (2): Josquin: Qui belles amours
*3 (7): Josquin: Salve regina a 5*
1 (1): Josquin: Stabat mater
1 (2): Kapsberger: Canario
1 (1): Kapsberger: Toccata arpeggiata
1 (2): Kassia: The Troparion of Kassiani
1 (4): la Rue: Missa L'Homme armé
1 (1): Lalande: De profundis
2 (5): Lassus: Cantiones sacrae a 6 (1594)
2 (4): Lassus: Missa Pro defunctis a 4
1 (1): Lassus: Missa super Osculetur me
2 (3): Lassus: Requiem a 5
1 (1): Lawes, W: Royal Consorts
1 (1): Le Jeune: Le printemps
*4 (10): Lobo: Requiem for 6 voices*
1 (8): Lully: Benedictus
1 (1): Lully: Le Bourgeois Gentilhomme
1 (1): Lully: Les Folies d'Espagne 
1 (1): Lully(?) et al: Ballet de la Nuit
1 (1): Machaut: De Fortune me doy pleindre
2 (2): Machaut: Douce dame jolie
*4 (5): Machaut: Je vivroie liement*
1 (1): Machaut: Lay de la fonteinne
1 (2): Machaut: Motets
1 (1): Machaut: Quant en moy
1 (1): Machy: Pieces de violle
*6 (5): Manchicourt: Missa Veni sancte spiritus*
1 (1): Marenzio: Madrigali a quattro voci
1 (1): Marini: Le lagrime d'Erminia
1 (6): Merulo: Missa in dominicis diebus
1 (2): Merulo: Toccate d'intavolatura d'organo, Book 1
1 (1): Milano: Ricercares & Fantasias
*4 (10): Monteverdi: Madrigals, Book 5*
1 (1): Monteverdi: Madrigals, Book 7
1 (1): Monteverdi: Messa a quattro voci SV 190
1 (1): Monteverdi: Zefiro torna e di soavi accenti
1 (1): Morales: Parce mihi Domine
1 (2): Mouton: Missa Dictes moy toutes voz pensées
1 (3): Mudarra: Fantasia No.10 (Fantasia que contrahaze la harpa en la manera de Ludovico Obras para Guitarra)
1 (1): Mudarra: Fantasias
1 (2): Mundy: Vox Patris caelestis
1 (1): Narváez: Los seys libros del delphín
1 (1): Obrecht: Missa Malheur me bat
2 (6): Obrecht: Missa Maria Zart
1 (1): Ockeghem: Intemerata Dei Mater
1 (4): Ockeghem: Missa Cuiusvis Toni
*3 (3): Ockeghem: Missa de plus en plus
3 (3): Ockeghem: Missa Ecce ancilla*
1 (1): Ockeghem: Missa L'homme armé
1 (1): Ockeghem: Quant de vous seul je pers la veue
1 (1): Ortiz: Trattado de glosas
1 (1): Padovano: Missa a 24 voix
1 (2): Palestrina: Dominus Jesus in qua nocte
2 (2): Palestrina: Lamentationes Ieremiae prophetae
*4 (7): Palestrina: Missa Assumpta est Maria*
1 (2): Palestrina: Missa Ave Maria
2 (3): Palestrina: Missa Benedicta es
*3 (6): Palestrina: Missa Hodie Christus natus est*
1 (7): Palestrina: Missa Repleatur os meum
1 (1): Palestrina: Sicut cervus
1 (1): Pérotin: Alleluia nativitas
1 (1): Pérotin: Beata viscera
*3 (5): Praetorius: Christ, unser Herr, zum Jordan kam (from Polyhymnia caduceatrix)*
1 (1): Purcell: Abdelazar
1 (1): Purcell: Come Ye Sons of Art, Away
2 (4): Purcell: King Arthur
2 (1): Purcell: The Fairy Queen
1 (2): Purcell: The Yorkshire Feast Song, Z.333
1 (1): Pycard: Credo
*5 (3): Rore: Missa Praeter rerum seriem*
1 (3): Rore: St John Passion
*4 (6): Rossi, M: 10 Toccatas*
1 (4): Scheidemann: Jesus Christus unser Heiland (II)
1 (1): Scheidt: Ludi Musici
2 (2): Schein: Banchetto Musicale
1 (1): Schein: Fontana d'Israel (Israels Brünnlein)
1 (1): Schütz: Es steh Gott auf (from Symphoniae Sacrae II)
*6 (9): Schütz: Geistliche Chormusik*
2 (5): Schütz: Psalmen Davids
1 (7): Shepherd: Media vita
1 (1): Stradella: San Giovanni Battista
1 (3): Striggio: Ecce beatam lucem
1 (1): Tallis: Gaude gloriosa Dei mater
1 (2): Tallis: If ye love me
2 (5): Taverner: Dum transisset sabbatum
1 (1): Taverner: Missa O Michael
*7 (8): Taverner: Western Wynde Mass*
2 (5): Titelouze: Hymnes de l'Église pour toucher sur l'orgue, avec les fugues et recherches sur leur plain-chant
1 (1): Torelli: Concerti musicali, op.6
1 (1): Tunder: Dominus illuminatio mea
1 (1): Tye: Missa Euge bone
*5 (6): Tye: Western Wynde Mass*
1 (2): Various: The Triumphs of Oriana
*4 (6): Vecchi: L'Amfiparnaso*
1 (1): Victoria: Ave Maria a 8
1 (1): Victoria: Missa O quam gloriosum
1 (2): Victoria: Missa Salve a 8
2 (1): Victoria: O Magnum Mysterium
2 (3): Vitry: Motets
1 (1): Walther: Hortulus Chelicus
1 (1): Weelkes: As Vesta was from Latmos Hill descending
*3 (10): White: Lamentations of Jeremiah*
1 (3): Willaert: Missa Mente tota
1 (1): Wylkynson: Salve Regina


----------



## Nereffid

Works nominated in Round 12:

These are the 56 works nominated in round 12 that didn't get enshrined.

*5 or more nominations (went to voting round):*
Schütz: Geistliche Chormusik
Banchieri: Barca di Venetia per Padova
Ciconia: Una panthera
Codax: Cantigas de amigo
Janequin: Le Chant des Oyseaulx
Machaut: Douce dame jolie
Obrecht: Missa Maria Zart

*4 nominations:*
Cavalli: La Calisto
Charpentier: Leçons de Ténèbres
Machaut: Je vivroie liement
Schein: Fontana d'Israel (Israels Brünnlein)
Sheppard: Media vita

*3 nominations:*
Bach, Johann Christoph: Ach, dass ich Wassers genug hatte (Lamento)
Binchois: Chansons (Triste plaisir, Dueil angoisseus)
Buxtehude: Ciacona in C, BuxWV 159
Cabezón: Obras de Música
Lully: Benedictus
Praetorius: Christ, unser Herr, zum Jordan kam (from Polyhymnia caduceatrix)
White: Lamentations of Jeremiah

*2 nominations:*
Anon: Venite a laudare
Bach, Johann Christoph: Meine Freundin, du bist schön
Buxtehude: Jubilate Domino, BuxWV 64
Buxtehude: Te Deum laudamus
Carissimi: Jephte
Dufay: Resvellies vous
Frescobaldi: Il secondo libro di toccate
Froberger: Lamentation faite sur la mort de Ferdinand III, FbWV 633
Lassus: Cantiones sacrae a 6 (1594)
Stradella: San Giovanni Battista
Titelouze: Hymnes de l'Église pour toucher sur l'orgue, avec les fugues et recherches sur leur plain-chant
Victoria: O Magnum Mysterium

*1 nomination:*
Anon: Agincourt Carol (Deo gracias Anglia)
Anon: Marian antiphons (Gregorian chant)
Bacheler: Lute music
Browne: Stabat juxta Christi crucem
Busnois: In hydraulis
Byrd: Cantiones sacrae II
Cavalli: Il Giasone
Cavalli: L'Artemisia
Fayrfax: Missa O quam glorifica
Ferrabosco: Lamentations
Francesco da Milano: Lute music
Galilei, V: Libro d'intavolature di liuto
Guerrero: Ave virgo sanctissima
Hume: Captain Humes Poeticall Musicke
Josquin: Missa L'homme armé sexti toni
Merulo: Toccate d'intavolatura d'organo, Book 1
Mudarra: Fantasia No.10 (Fantasia que contrahaze la harpa en la manera de Ludovico Obras para Guitarra)
Pachelbel: Chaconne in D minor
Pandolfi Mealli: opus 3
Purcell: The Yorkshire Feast Song, Z.333
Scheidt: Cantiones sacrae
Scheidt: Ludi Musici
Tallis: If ye love me
Torelli: Concerti musicali, op.6
Verdelot: Donna leggiadr' et bella


----------



## SimonNZ

Poor Schutz...he's had a tough time all the way through this. For my taste he's under-represented, but if the process is revealing that he's not as beloved as I might have thought, then that's a legitimate and interesting outcome.

Or is it that others feel, as I do, that his work was remarkably consistant, and it's hard to choose one work over another, and there are on obvious popular favorites?


----------



## D Smith

@SimonNZ. I like Schutz and have several recordings of his music. I'll be happy to support Geistliche Chormusik this round.


----------



## SimonNZ

Thanks - I'm not trying to whip up votes that might not otherwise have been there, just curious about the way he strikes me as underrepresented.


----------



## GreenMamba

At least Schutz is represented, unlike the other Sch's (Schein, Scheidt and Scheidemann).


----------



## Nereffid

There's probably a bunch of reasons for Schütz not doing as well as might be expected. 
Interestingly, _Geistliche Chormusik_ got 5 nominations in round 4 and might have been expected to be enshrined in round 5 or 6. But instead a couple of people supporting it dropped out, and it just declined from there.
For my own part, the fact that no particular piece stands out is an issue, and I find that when it comes to voting there are other things I'd rather support.
I think if we were all having a discussion about what should be in the list, Schütz would feature higher. That's a general aspect of the procedure here anyway; the way in which we nominate will occasionally send things in a direction that seems a little less obvious (one example I've noticed is Josquin; if creating a list through discussion rather than nomination, we'd probably still have 3 Josquin works in the top 100, but I'm pretty sure they wouldn't all be masses).
Perhaps now Schütz is partly the victim of already having 2 works enshrined - with no obvious stand-out work omitted it's harder for people to be as enthusiastic at supporting more Schütz at the expense of others.


----------



## Nereffid

Just wondering - 
Seeing as there'll be one final round to finish off, are there any objections to automatically enshrining everything that gets 5 or more nominations in the current round (round 13)? Voting round 13 would proceed exactly as normal (at present there are 14 works that will go through, which will probably increase by 1 or 2 by the time everyone's contributed to the nomination round), but instead of just enshrining nos.121-130, we enshrine nos.121-134 (or whatever).


----------



## D Smith

Nereffid said:


> Just wondering -
> Seeing as there'll be one final round to finish off, are there any objections to automatically enshrining everything that gets 5 or more nominations in the current round (round 13)? Voting round 13 would proceed exactly as normal (at present there are 14 works that will go through, which will probably increase by 1 or 2 by the time everyone's contributed to the nomination round), but instead of just enshrining nos.121-130, we enshrine nos.121-134 (or whatever).


That's fine by me.


----------



## GreenMamba

I'm OK with that as well.


----------



## Nereffid

Here's the list so far, in approximate chronological order:

1000s (earliest): Anon: Cant de la Sibilla
1130s: Anon: Codex Calixtinus
1140-60: Hildegard: Symphonia armonie celestium revelationum
1140s to 1180s: Bernart de Ventadorn: Can vei la lauzeta mover
1150s to 1200: Léonin: Viderunt omnes
1151c: Hildegard: Ordo virtutum
1198c: Pérotin: Viderunt omnes
1199c: Pérotin: Sederunt principes
1200s?: Gautier de Coincy: Miracles of Notre Dame
1230?: Anon: Carmina Burana
1230s?: Codax: Cantigas de amigo
1250s to 80s?: Alfonso X: Cantigas de Santa Maria
1250s?: Anon: Le Manuscrit du Roi - Estampies & Danses Royales
1250s?: Anon: Sumer is icumen in
1282c: Adam de la Halle: Jeu de Robin et Marion
1300 to 1350: Anon: Tournai Mass
1300c: Anon: Codex las Huelgas
1300c: Anon: Codex Montpellier
1330s to 60s: Machaut: Douce dame jolie
1340s to 1390s: Landini: Ballate (Ecco la primavera, Conviens' a fede, Questa fanciull' Amor)
1340s?: Machaut: La Remede de Fortune
1350 to 1400: Various: Codex Chantilly
1360s: Machaut: Songs from Le Voir Dit
1365 or before: Machaut: Messe de Nostre Dame
1390s to 1400s: Ciconia: Una panthera
1399c: Anon: Llibre Vermell de Montserrat
1420s to 1450s: Dunstable: Veni Sancte Spiritus
1434: Dufay: Nuper rosarum flores
1450 to 97: Ockeghem: Deo gratias
1450 to 97: Ockeghem: Missa Prolationum
1450s: Dufay: Missa Se la face ay pale
1460s?: Dufay: Missa L'homme armé
1460s?: Ockeghem: Missa Mi-Mi
1461?: Ockeghem: Requiem (Missa pro defunctis)
1470s to 90s: Agricola: Missa in myne zyn
1470s to 90s: Various: Codex Faenza
1480s?: Josquin: Missa Hercules dux Ferrariae
1480s?: Josquin: Missa L'homme armé super voces musicales
1480s?: Obrecht: Missa Caput
1490s: Browne: Stabat mater
1500?: Brumel: Missa Et ecce terrae motus
1500c: Isaac: Missa de Apostolis
1500c?: la Rue: Requiem
1500s?: Ashwell: Missa Ave Maria
1500s?: Mouton: Nesciens Mater
1500s?: Obrecht: Missa Maria Zart
1504?: Josquin: Miserere mei Deus
1515c: Josquin: Missa Pange lingua
1520s?: Taverner: Missa Gloria tibi Trinitas
1529: Janequin: Le Chant des Oyseaulx
1530s to 50s: Clemens: Missa Pastores quidnam vidistis
1530s to 60s: Manchicourt: Missa Veni sancte spiritus
1530s?: Gombert: Je prens congie a 8
1530s?: Gombert: Media vita a 6
1530s?: Taverner: Western Wynde Mass
1532: Richafort: Requiem
1536: Milán: Libro de Música de Vihuela de mano (El Maestro)
1540s to 70s: Tye: Western Wynde Mass
1550s: Lassus: Prophetiae Sibyllarum
1550s: Rore: Missa Praeter rerum seriem
1550s?: Morales: Missa pro defunctis
1551: Susato: Danserye
1560s: Tallis: Lamentations of Jeremiah
1562: Palestrina: Missa Papae Marcelli
1566c: Striggio: Missa Ecco si beato giorno
1568: Willaert: Madrigals from Musica Nova
1570c: Tallis: Spem in Alium
1580s to 1620s: Sweelinck: Fantasia cromatica, SwWV 258
1580s to 1620s: Dowland: Lute music (Frogg Galliard, Tarleton's Resurrection)
1584: Lassus: Penitential Psalms
1584: Palestrina: Canticum canticorum
1585: Victoria: Tenebrae Responsoria
1587: Gallus: Opus Musicum
1590c: Palestrina: Stabat mater
1590s: Palestrina: Missa Assumpta est Maria
1591: Byrd: My Ladye Nevells Booke
1591: Marenzio: Madrigals, Book 5
1593: Byrd: Mass for 4 Voices
1594: Lassus: Lagrime di San Pietro
1594: Vecchi: L'Amfiparnaso
1594: Lassus: Cantiones sacrae a 6 (1594)
1595: Byrd: Mass for 5 Voices
1597: Dowland: First Booke of Songes
1597: Gabrieli G: Sacrae Symphoniae
1600: Cavalieri: Rappresentatione di Anima, et di Corpo
1600: Dowland: Second Booke of Songes
1600: Peri: Euridice
1600s?: Bull: In Nomine IX (for keyboard)
1602: Caccini: Le nuove musiche
1603: Lobo, D: Requiem for 6 voices
1604: Dowland: Lachrimae, or Seaven Teares
1605: Monteverdi: Madrigals, Book 5
1605: Victoria: Officium defunctorum
1607: Monteverdi: L'Orfeo
1610: Monteverdi: Vespro della Beate Vergine
1610s?: Gibbons: Cries of London
1611: Gesualdo: Madrigals, Book 5
1611: Gesualdo: Madrigals, Book 6
1611: Gesualdo: Tenebrae Responsoria
1612: Praetorius: Terpsichore
1615: Gabrieli G: Symphoniae Sacrae II
1623: Schein: Fontana d'Israel (Israels Brünnlein)
1623: Banchieri: Barca di Venetia per Padova
1630s: Allegri: Miserere
1630s?: Rossi, M: 10 Toccatas
1635: Frescobaldi: Fiori musicali
1636: Schütz: Musikalische Exequien
1638: Merula: Curtio precipitato et altri capricii, libro secondo, op.13
1638: Monteverdi: Madrigals, Book 8 (Madrigali guerrieri, et amorosi)
1640: Monteverdi: Il ritorno d'Ulisse in patria
1641: Monteverdi: Selva morale e spirituale
1642: Monteverdi: L'incoronazione di Poppea
1648: Schütz: Geistliche Chormusik
1648: Carissimi: Jephte
1651: Cavalli: La Calisto
1660s?: Froberger: Suite XX in D, FbWV 620
1664: Schütz: Weihnachtshistorie
1670s: Charpentier: Leçons de Ténèbres
1670s to 80s?: Bach, Johann Christoph: Ach, dass ich Wassers genug hatte (Lamento)
1673: Biber: Battalia a 10
1674: Sanz: Instrucción de Música sobre la Guitarra Española
1675: Stradella: San Giovanni Battista
1676: Biber: Mystery (Rosary) Sonatas
1680: Buxtehude: Membra Jesu nostri
1682?: Biber: Missa Salisburgensis
1685c: Buxtehude: Toccata in D minor, BuxWV 155
1686: Lully: Armide
1688: Purcell: Dido and Aeneas
1690: Charpentier: Te Deum
1690s?: Pachelbel: Canon in D
1692: Biber: Requiem a 15 in A
1692: Purcell: Hail, bright Cecilia! (Ode for St. Cecilia's Day)
1695: Purcell: Funeral Music for Queen Mary
1699c: Caldara: Maddalena ai piedi di Cristo


----------



## Nereffid

And here it is in alphabetical order:

Adam de la Halle: Jeu de Robin et Marion
Agricola: Missa in myne zyn
Alfonso X: Cantigas de Santa Maria
Allegri: Miserere
Anon: Cant de la Sibilla
Anon: Carmina Burana
Anon: Codex Calixtinus
Anon: Codex las Huelgas
Anon: Codex Montpellier
Anon: Le Manuscrit du Roi - Estampies & Danses Royales
Anon: Llibre Vermell de Montserrat
Anon: Sumer is icumen in
Anon: Tournai Mass
Ashwell: Missa Ave Maria
Bach, Johann Christoph: Ach, dass ich Wassers genug hatte (Lamento)
Banchieri: Barca di Venetia per Padova
Bernart de Ventadorn: Can vei la lauzeta mover
Biber: Battalia a 10
Biber: Missa Salisburgensis
Biber: Mystery (Rosary) Sonatas
Biber: Requiem a 15 in A
Browne: Stabat mater
Brumel: Missa Et ecce terrae motus
Bull: In Nomine IX (for keyboard)
Buxtehude: Membra Jesu nostri
Buxtehude: Toccata in D minor, BuxWV 155
Byrd: Mass for 4 Voices
Byrd: Mass for 5 Voices
Byrd: My Ladye Nevells Booke
Caccini: Le nuove musiche
Caldara: Maddalena ai piedi di Cristo
Carissimi: Jephte
Cavalieri: Rappresentatione di Anima, et di Corpo
Cavalli: La Calisto
Charpentier: Leçons de Ténèbres
Charpentier: Te Deum
Ciconia: Una panthera
Clemens: Missa Pastores quidnam vidistis
Codax: Cantigas de amigo
Dowland: First Booke of Songes
Dowland: Lachrimae, or Seaven Teares
Dowland: Lute music (Frogg Galliard, Tarleton's Resurrection)
Dowland: Second Booke of Songes
Dufay: Missa L'homme armé
Dufay: Missa Se la face ay pale
Dufay: Nuper rosarum flores
Dunstable: Veni Sancte Spiritus
Frescobaldi: Fiori musicali
Froberger: Suite XX in D, FbWV 620
Gabrieli G: Sacrae Symphoniae
Gabrieli G: Symphoniae Sacrae II
Gallus: Opus Musicum
Gautier de Coincy: Miracles of Notre Dame
Gesualdo: Madrigals, Book 5
Gesualdo: Madrigals, Book 6
Gesualdo: Tenebrae Responsoria
Gibbons: Cries of London
Gombert: Je prens congie a 8
Gombert: Media vita a 6
Hildegard: Ordo virtutum
Hildegard: Symphonia armonie celestium revelationum
Isaac: Missa de Apostolis
Janequin: Le Chant des Oyseaulx
Josquin: Miserere mei Deus
Josquin: Missa Hercules dux Ferrariae
Josquin: Missa L'homme armé super voces musicales
Josquin: Missa Pange lingua
la Rue: Requiem
Landini: Ballate (Ecco la primavera, Conviens' a fede, Questa fanciull' Amor)
Lassus: Cantiones sacrae a 6 (1594)
Lassus: Lagrime di San Pietro
Lassus: Penitential Psalms
Lassus: Prophetiae Sibyllarum
Léonin: Viderunt omnes
Lobo, D: Requiem for 6 voices
Lully: Armide
Machaut: Douce dame jolie
Machaut: La Remede de Fortune
Machaut: Messe de Nostre Dame
Machaut: Songs from Le Voir Dit
Manchicourt: Missa Veni sancte spiritus
Marenzio: Madrigals, Book 5
Merula: Curtio precipitato et altri capricii, libro secondo, op.13
Milán: Libro de Música de Vihuela de mano (El Maestro)
Monteverdi: Il ritorno d'Ulisse in patria
Monteverdi: L'incoronazione di Poppea
Monteverdi: L'Orfeo
Monteverdi: Madrigals, Book 5
Monteverdi: Madrigals, Book 8 (Madrigali guerrieri, et amorosi)
Monteverdi: Selva morale e spirituale
Monteverdi: Vespro della Beate Vergine
Morales: Missa pro defunctis
Mouton: Nesciens Mater
Obrecht: Missa Caput
Obrecht: Missa Maria Zart
Ockeghem: Deo gratias
Ockeghem: Missa Mi-Mi
Ockeghem: Missa Prolationum
Ockeghem: Requiem (Missa pro defunctis)
Pachelbel: Canon in D
Palestrina: Canticum canticorum
Palestrina: Missa Assumpta est Maria
Palestrina: Missa Papae Marcelli
Palestrina: Stabat mater
Peri: Euridice
Pérotin: Sederunt principes
Pérotin: Viderunt omnes
Praetorius: Terpsichore
Purcell: Dido and Aeneas
Purcell: Funeral Music for Queen Mary
Purcell: Hail, bright Cecilia! (Ode for St. Cecilia's Day)
Richafort: Requiem
Rore: Missa Praeter rerum seriem
Rossi, M: 10 Toccatas
Sanz: Instrucción de Música sobre la Guitarra Española
Schein: Fontana d'Israel (Israels Brünnlein)
Schütz: Geistliche Chormusik
Schütz: Musikalische Exequien
Schütz: Weihnachtshistorie
Stradella: San Giovanni Battista
Striggio: Missa Ecco si beato giorno
Susato: Danserye
Sweelinck: Fantasia cromatica, SwWV 258
Tallis: Lamentations of Jeremiah
Tallis: Spem in Alium
Taverner: Missa Gloria tibi Trinitas
Taverner: Western Wynde Mass
Tye: Western Wynde Mass
Various: Codex Chantilly
Various: Codex Faenza
Vecchi: L'Amfiparnaso
Victoria: Officium defunctorum
Victoria: Tenebrae Responsoria
Willaert: Madrigals from Musica Nova


----------



## Nereffid

This is the list of the approx. 200 works that have been nominated over the 13 rounds but not enshrined.
I haven't edited it from the raw data, so there is some overlap (cf. Francesco da Milano).

Adam de la Halle: De ma dame vient
Anon: Agincourt Carol (Deo gracias Anglia)
Anon: Dances from Add. MS 29987
Anon: Edi beo thu, hevene quene
Anon: Ludus Danielis
Anon: Marian antiphons (Gregorian chant)
Anon: Missa in Dedicatione Ecclesiae
Anon: Ne m'oubliez mie
Anon: Roman de Fauvel
Anon: Salve virgo virginum
Anon: Stillat in stellum radium
Anon: Venite a laudare
Arañés: Chacona
Bach, Johann Christoph: Meine Freundin, du bist schön
Bacheler: Lute music
Bacheler: Monsieurs Almaine
Bartholomeus de Bononia: Morir desio
Bernart de Ventadorn: La Dousa vota
Binchois: Chansons (Triste plaisir, Dueil angoisseus)
Browne: Stabat juxta Christi crucem
Brumel: Missa de beata virgine
Busnois: In hydraulis
Busnois: Missa L'homme armé
Busnois: Missa O crux lignum
Buxtehude: Ciacona in C, BuxWV 159
Buxtehude: Jubilate Domino, BuxWV 64
Buxtehude: Nun freut euch, lieben Christen g'mein / G major; chorale fantasia, BuxWV 210
Buxtehude: Organ works
Buxtehude: Passcaglia in D minor, BuxWV 161
Buxtehude: Praeludium in F Sharp Minor BuxWV 146
Buxtehude: Te Deum laudamus
Byrd: Ave verum corpus
Byrd: Cantiones sacrae II
Byrd: Infelix ego
Byrd: Pavanes and Galliards
Byrd: Songs of Sundry Natures
Byrd: The Great Service
Cabezón: Obras de Música
Cavalli: Il Giasone
Cavalli: Il rapimento d'Helena
Cavalli: L'Artemisia
Charpentier: Médée
Charpentier: Messe de minuit pour Noël
Costeley: Mignonne, allon voir si la roze
Dalza: Pieces from Petrucci's "Intabulatura de lauto libro quarto"
Demantius: St John Passion
Dufay: Ecclesie militantis
Dufay: Fulgens iubar ecclesiae dei - Puerpera, pura parens
Dufay: Missa Ave regina caelorum
Dufay: O gemma lux
Dufay: Resvellies vous
Dufay: Salve flos Tusce gentis
Dunstable: Missa Rex seculorum
Etienne de Liège
Farina: Capriccio stravagante
Fayrfax: Missa O quam glorifica
Ferrabosco: Lamentations
Ferrabosco: Peccantem me quotidie
Ferrabosco: Salmo 103
Francesco da Milano: Fantasia No.55 "La piu bella & divina a che abbia fatto"
Francesco da Milano: Lute music
Francesco da Milano: Ricercares & Fantasias
Frescobaldi: Capriccios
Frescobaldi: Il secondo libro di toccate
Frescobaldi: Toccatas and Partitas
Froberger: Lamentation faite sur la mort de Ferdinand III, FbWV 633
Froberger: Suite XXX in A minor, FbWV 630
Froberger: Tombeau fait à Paris sur la mort de Monsieur Blancrocher, FbWV 632
Gabrieli G: Canzoni e Sonate
Gabrieli G: In ecclesiis
Galilei, V: Libro d'intavolature di liuto
Gesualdo: Madrigals, Book 2
Gesualdo: Miserere
Gesualdo: Tribulationem et dolorem
Gibbons: This is the Record of John
Gombert: Magnificats (8)
Gombert: Missa Media vita
Gombert: O, Jesu Christe a 6 (aka Sancta Maria)
Gombert: Peccata mea a 6
Gombert: Tribulatio et angustia
Guerrero: Ave virgo sanctissima
Guerrero: Missa de la batalla escoutez
Henry VIII: Pastyme with Good Companye
Holborne: Pavans, Galliards and Almains
Hume: Captain Humes Poeticall Musicke
Isaac: Choralis Constantinus
Isaac: Innsbruck, ich muss dich lassen
Isaac: Virgo prudentissima
Janequin: La bataille
Janequin: Les cris de Paris
Jarzebski: Canzoni é Concerti
Johnson: Carmen's Whistle
Josquin: Absalon Fili mi
Josquin: Ave Maria, gratia plena
Josquin: Ave Maria... Virgo serena
Josquin: De profundis clamavi
Josquin: Mille regretz
Josquin: Missa Gaudeamus
Josquin: Missa L'homme armé sexti toni
Josquin: Missa Malheur me bat
Josquin: Nymphes des bois
Josquin: Qui belles amours
Josquin: Salve regina a 5
Josquin: Stabat mater
Kapsberger: Canario
Kapsberger: Toccata arpeggiata
Kassia: The Troparion of Kassiani
la Rue: Missa L'Homme armé
Lalande: De profundis
Lassus: Missa Pro defunctis a 4
Lassus: Missa super Osculetur me
Lassus: Requiem a 5
Lawes: Consort Setts a 5 and 6 (to the organ)
Lawes: Royal Consorts
Lawes: Sonata for violin, bass viol and organ
Le Jeune: Le printemps
Léonin: Magnus liber organi
Lully: Benedictus
Lully: Le Bourgeois Gentilhomme
Lully: Les Folies d'Espagne 
Lully(?) et al: Ballet de la Nuit
Machaut: De Fortune me doy pleindre
Machaut: Je vivroie liement
Machaut: Lay de la fonteinne
Machaut: Ma fin est mon commencement
Machaut: Motets
Machaut: Quant en moy
Machy: Pieces de violle
Marenzio: Madrigali a quattro voci
Marini: Le lagrime d'Erminia
Merulo: Missa in dominicis diebus
Merulo: Toccate d’intavolatura d’organo, Book 1
Monteverdi: Madrigals, Book 6
Monteverdi: Madrigals, Book 7
Monteverdi: Messa a quattro voci SV 190
Monteverdi: Zefiro torna e di soavi accenti
Morales: Parce mihi Domine
Mouton: Missa Dictes moy toutes voz pensées
Mudarra: Fantasia No.10 (Fantasia que contrahaze la harpa en la manera de Ludovico Obras para Guitarra)
Mudarra: Fantasias
Mundy: Vox Patris caelestis
Narváez: Los seys libros del delphín
Obrecht: Missa Malheur me bat
Ockeghem: Intemerata Dei Mater
Ockeghem: Missa Cuiusvis Toni
Ockeghem: Missa de plus en plus
Ockeghem: Missa Ecce ancilla
Ockeghem: Missa Fors seulement
Ockeghem: Missa L'homme armé
Ockeghem: Quant de vous seul je pers la veue
Ortiz: Trattado de glosas
Oswald von Wolkenstein: Der himel furst heut bewar
Pachelbel: Chaconne in D minor
Pachelbel: Hexachordium Apollinis
Padovano: Missa a 24 voix
Palestrina: Dominus Jesus in qua nocte
Palestrina: Lamentationes Ieremiae prophetae
Palestrina: Miss Brevis
Palestrina: Missa Ave Maria
Palestrina: Missa Benedicta es
Palestrina: Missa Hodie Christus natus est
Palestrina: Missa Repleatur os meum
Palestrina: Sicut cervus
Pandolfi Mealli: opus 3
Pérotin: Alleluia nativitas
Pérotin: Beata viscera
Praetorius: Christ, unser Herr, zum Jordan kam (from Polyhymnia caduceatrix)
Praetorius: Polyhymnia caduceatrix: Christ, unser Herr, zum Jordan kam
Purcell: Abdelazar
Purcell: Come Ye Sons of Art, Away
Purcell: King Arthur
Purcell: The Fairy Queen
Purcell: The Yorkshire Feast Song, Z.333
Pycard: Credo
Rore: St John Passion
Scheidemann: Jesus Christus unser Heiland (II)
Scheidt: Cantiones sacrae
Scheidt: Ludi Musici
Schein: Banchetto Musicale
Schütz: Es steh Gott auf (from Symphoniae Sacrae II)
Schütz: Psalmen Davids
Shepherd: Media vita
Striggio: Ecce beatam lucem
Tallis: Gaude gloriosa Dei mater
Tallis: If ye love me
Taverner: Dum transisset sabbatum
Titelouze: Hymnes de l'Église pour toucher sur l'orgue, avec les fugues et recherches sur leur plain-chant
Torelli: Concerti musicali, op.6
Tunder: Dominus illuminatio mea
Tye: Missa Euge bone
Various: The Triumphs of Oriana
Verdelot: Donna leggiadr' et bella
Victoria: Ave Maria a 8
Victoria: Missa O quam gloriosum
Victoria: Missa Salve a 8
Victoria: O Magnum Mysterium
Vitry: Motets
Vitry: Motets & chansons
Walther: Hortulus Chelicus
Weelkes: As Vesta was from Latmos Hill descending
White: Lamentations of Jeremiah
Willaert: Missa Mente tota
Wylkynson: Salve Regina


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## Nereffid

tortkis has already suggested Anon: Venite a laudare (which I have supported) but I think perhaps a better option would be the _Laudario di Cortona_, a 13th-century collection of _laude_ of which tortkis's suggestion is the first piece. Another piece from the laudario that crops up in recordings is _Stella nuova_.


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## GreenMamba

I'm not sure of we're supposed to be lobbying works/composers that have yet the be enshrined or yet to be even nominated (or just anything we like).

Yet to be nominated:
*Jacques Arcadelt*: 16c. madrigalist extraordinaire, _il bianco e dolce cigno_ if you have to pick just one.

*Claudin de Sermisy*: 16c., we have Janequin a couple of times (both programmatic pieces). Sermisy didn't go in for onomatopoetic effects. We may have to go with individual pieces, such as _Tant que vivray_.

*Jacopo da Bologna*. He presents the same sort of difficulties of composers such as Landini and Binchois (just pick a few songs?). He is represented in the Squarcialupi Codex, but (a) it has a lot of works and (b) we've already pulled Landini out from it.

*John Farmer*, _Fair Phyllis_. This would be a single song (madrigal). Nefferid seems to like these types of noms, although they don't always get a lot of traction (I still think _Innsbruck Ich muss dich lassen_ should be in). Has been recording a million times.

*Yatsuhashi Kengyo*, _Rokudan no Shirabe_. I mentioned this upthread but never nominated it. Not sure if it is out of bounds, and it might open a can of worms. It's a great work, I think.

Yet to enshrined, but I think should be:
Binchois
Busnoys (aka Bunsois)
Vitry (doesn't have a lot; could do all his motets)
Verdelot
Lawes (I love the Consort Sets with organ. Fretwork did a nice job with them.)
Le Jeune (La Printans was nominated a long time ago. _Revecy venir du printans_ would be the "hit.")


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## Nereffid

GreenMamba said:


> I'm not sure of we're supposed to be lobbying works/composers that have yet the be enshrined or yet to be even nominated (or just anything we like).


Basically that would be composers/works not yet nominated. At this point, I'd like us to be reasonably sure that there's no significant omissions in the final list, so it comes down to what you think "significant" means!

As for lobbying for already-nominated works, there's no harm in it, but maybe their being already nominated is enough?

I hope that when we each do our final nominations it will be more in the spirit of "these will nicely round out the list" rather than "here's a bunch of stuff I like". Actually I see no problem with having a few vague nominations (such as just a composer's name, or something like "another Josquin motet") that we can sort out later.

BTW, as regards Yatsuhashi Kengyo or any other composer who has no relevance to the Western tradition, that's a can of worms all right. "Get up the yard" as we say in Dublin.


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## pjang23

Lully could definitely use some more representation. His Benedictus is not on youtube but it is on Spotify:

https://play.spotify.com/album/5Vt7HNK6S3d1QD1MqaM2qX


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## Mandryka

Some random thoughts, I haven't really read the thread. 



There are lots of composers which seem to not get a look in, perhaps because the list seems too oriented towards choral music. Names that come to mind straight away are Arauxo, Louis Couperin, Dietrich Steffkins, Andrea Gabrieli, Giovanni Trabaci, Claudio Merulo, D'Anglebert, Chambonnieres, Georg Muffat, Titelouze, de Macque . . . I don't have the time to suggest works.

By the way, be careful to say which Praetorius you mean, there are many composers called Praetorius.


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## tortkis

Nereffid said:


> tortkis has already suggested Anon: Venite a laudare (which I have supported) but I think perhaps a better option would be the _Laudario di Cortona_, a 13th-century collection of _laude_ of which tortkis's suggestion is the first piece. Another piece from the laudario that crops up in recordings is _Stella nuova_.


I heard only few songs from Laudario di Cortona. Armoniosoincanto's Brilliant Classics album seems the most easily available recording of the complete collection, a 4-CD set lasting about 5 hours. I am not sure if I can listen to the whole collection before voting.


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## tdc

Mandryka said:


> Some random thoughts, I haven't really read the thread.
> There are lots of composers which seem to not get a look in, perhaps because the list seems too oriented towards choral music. Names that come to mind straight away are Arauxo, Louis Couperin, Dietrich Steffkins, Andrea Gabrieli, Giovanni Trabaci, Claudio Merulo, D'Anglebert, Chambonnieres, Georg Muffat, Titelouze, de Macque . . . I don't have the time to suggest works.
> 
> By the way, be careful to say which Praetorius you mean, there are many composers called Praetorius.


Some good points here. I agree the omission of Louis Couperin is a big one, I haven't explored too much of his work but what I've listened to I have been impressed by. Which work(s) of his would you nominate?


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## Nereffid

Mandryka said:


> There are lots of composers which seem to not get a look in, perhaps because the list seems too oriented towards choral music. Names that come to mind straight away are Arauxo, Louis Couperin, Dietrich Steffkins, Andrea Gabrieli, Giovanni Trabaci, Claudio Merulo, D'Anglebert, Chambonnieres, Georg Muffat, Titelouze, de Macque . . . I don't have the time to suggest works.


TBH my first reaction to this post is _who the hell is Dietrich Steffkins_? :lol:
In fairness those are two good points - there are plenty of composers left out, and there is a trend towards choral music.

As to the first point, the list will be about 160-170 works long when it's done, so there's a clear limit to how much can be fit in anyway. The list was never going to be a definitive examination of all the music of the period - the process doesn't allow that (see point 2 below). And the emphasis is on _works_ rather than composers, too, so if a composer doesn't have an "obvious" work to go on the list, they'll be at a disadvantage. (Personally I see no problem with this because I feel there should be a significant element of "obvious" to the list - the process is consensus-based and thus requires that the same thoughts occur to several people).

As to the second, the content of the list reflects the interest of the people who participated. Another participant more interested in instrumental music could have pushed it a little more in that direction (apologies if this sounds snotty - it's not intended that way).


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## Nereffid

tortkis said:


> I heard only few songs from Laudario di Cortona. Armoniosoincanto's Brilliant Classics album seems the most easily available recording of the complete collection, a 4-CD set lasting about 5 hours. I am not sure if I can listen to the whole collection before voting.


I went through my collection yesterday to see what items from the Laudario di Cortona I had, and was startled to discover I have versions of 20 of them from several albums.
That Brilliant release seems very loooong - their version of _Sia laudato San Francesco_ is over 5 minutes long, while Gothic Voices' recording (voices only) takes just 80 seconds!


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## Mandryka

Nereffid said:


> TBH my first reaction to this post is _who the hell is Dietrich Steffkins_? :lol:
> In fairness those are two good points - there are plenty , too, so if a composer doesn't have an "obvious" work to go on the list, they'll be at a disadvantage. (Personally I see no problem with this because I feel there should be a significant element of "obvious" to the list - the process is consensus-based and thus requires that the same thoughts occur to several people).
> 
> As to the second, the content of the list reflects the interest of the people who participated. Another participant more interested in instrumental music could have pushed it a little more in that direction (apologies if this sounds snotty - it's not intended that way).


If you like Bach's last three cello suites try Steffkins/Stöeffken. There's a recording by Jonathan Dunford.

By the way, you'd better get someone to suggest something by Cabezon, I certainly couldn't identify an obvious masterpiece by him. I would argue he's a great composer who wrote no great music.


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## Nereffid

Mandryka said:


> By the way, you'd better get someone to suggest something by Cabezon, I certainly couldn't identify an obvious masterpiece by him. I would argue he's a great composer who wrote no great music.


Cabezón's _Obras de Música_ has been nominated and stands a good chance of making it onto the final list.

Of course - I should have said this in my previous response - it's not too late to join in the game if you wish. One person's support could easily make the difference between a nominated work being enshrined or not.


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## tdc

For Louis Couperin I would support a group of his harpsichord works such as this:

L Couperin - _Pieces de Clavecin_






If anyone has any other suggestions or preferences, let me know.


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## StDior

I would like to nominate the following four short medieval works to the roughly 200 final nomination list:
Beatriz de Dia: A chantar m'er de so qu'eu no volria 



Walther von der Vogelweide: Under der linden 



Peter Abelard: Planctus David super Saul et Ionatha 



Jaufré Rudel: Lanquan li jorn 



The above medieval composers are neither on the Top 130 list nor in the nomination list.


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## tortkis

tdc said:


> For Louis Couperin I would support a group of his harpsichord works such as this:
> 
> L Couperin - _Pieces de Clavecin_
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If anyone has any other suggestions or preferences, let me know.


I didn't listen to the whole youtube clip but are they VI suite and VII suite as grouped in the Egarr's recording, that is, all the dances in D minor? According to wikipedia, there was no concept like "suite" at that time, and the grouping of suites seems based on Moroney's numbering. Anyway, I think that is a good nomination. (Or, the whole harpsichord music (130 pieces) may be fine?)


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## tortkis

GreenMamba said:


> I'm not sure of we're supposed to be lobbying works/composers that have yet the be enshrined or yet to be even nominated (or just anything we like).
> 
> Yet to be nominated:
> *Jacques Arcadelt*: 16c. madrigalist extraordinaire, _il bianco e dolce cigno_ if you have to pick just one.
> 
> *Claudin de Sermisy*: 16c., we have Janequin a couple of times (both programmatic pieces). Sermisy didn't go in for onomatopoetic effects. We may have to go with individual pieces, such as _Tant que vivray_.
> 
> *Jacopo da Bologna*. He presents the same sort of difficulties of composers such as Landini and Binchois (just pick a few songs?). He is represented in the Squarcialupi Codex, but (a) it has a lot of works and (b) we've already pulled Landini out from it.
> 
> *John Farmer*, _Fair Phyllis_. This would be a single song (madrigal). Nefferid seems to like these types of noms, although they don't always get a lot of traction (I still think _Innsbruck Ich muss dich lassen_ should be in). Has been recording a million times.
> 
> *Yatsuhashi Kengyo*, _Rokudan no Shirabe_. I mentioned this upthread but never nominated it. Not sure if it is out of bounds, and it might open a can of worms. It's a great work, I think.
> 
> Yet to enshrined, but I think should be:
> Binchois
> Busnoys (aka Bunsois)
> Vitry (doesn't have a lot; could do all his motets)
> Verdelot
> Lawes (I love the Consort Sets with organ. Fretwork did a nice job with them.)
> Le Jeune (La Printans was nominated a long time ago. _Revecy venir du printans_ would be the "hit.")


I want to hear Huelgas Ensemble's recording of Le Jeune's La Printans but it's hard to find. I didn't like much the singing style of Ensemble Jacques Feuillie.

I like the recordings of Jacopo da Bologna by Ensemble Unicorn and La Reverdie, but it is difficult to pick a particular piece. I think his "madrigals" can be nominated.

Probably not mentioned yet, Jacquet of Mantua's (1483-1559) vocal music is very good. He was "a French composer of the Renaissance, who spent almost his entire life in Italy. He was an influential member of the generation between Josquin and Palestrina, and represents well the transitional polyphonic style between those two composers." (wikipedia)

Jacquet of Mantua: Surge Petre




 (only extracts)


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