# Most contentious statement :-)



## GGluek (Dec 11, 2011)

This is meant to be a fun thread.  Post the statement representing an honestvtaste or opinion that is most guaranteed to start a contentious discussion among posters here. This is _not_ a place for those discussions -- only for those statements that in other circumstances might lead to them.

Here is one of mine:

I like Boris Godunov better than all of Wagner put together.

What's yours?

George


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## SiegendesLicht (Mar 4, 2012)

The German/Austrian Romantic musical tradition has produced the best music of all times and all nations.


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## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

The greatest composer of the 20th C. was ______ (insert _any_ name).

[I don't understand this, but there it is.]


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## DaDirkNL (Aug 26, 2013)

The music of Bach is the most boring music ever written.


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## JohnnyRotten (Aug 10, 2013)

The Ramones` and Sex Pistols` habit of counting 1,2,3,4... before beginning many songs was to check that all the strings were present on their guitars.


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## Aramis (Mar 1, 2009)

I'm listening to John Cage 4'33 ATM loloolloolo is this MUISC???????????? lol modern crap, not real music I like some modern music but after Shostakovich all was some noisy crap like they can't write any good melody like those by BEETHOVEN who is the BEST simply the first ROMANTIC composer like WAGNER but this guy I don't like he has blood on his hands another I don't like is Anthony VEEVALDY and other ITALIAN music I like GERMAN music when they don't kill


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

DaDirkNL said:


> The music of Bach is the most boring music ever written.


Only exceeded by Haydn and Mozart.


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## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

People who don't hear Schoenberg's melodies are either tone deaf or have only ever listened with prejudice.


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## HaydnBearstheClock (Jul 6, 2013)

starthrower said:


> Only exceeded by Haydn and Mozart.


Boo!!! (and now 25 chars)


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## ahammel (Oct 10, 2012)

_4'33"_ was a pretty clever way to make an interesting point.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

Mahlerian said:


> People who don't hear Schoenberg's melodies are either tone deaf or have only ever listened with prejudice.


His violin concerto sounds like chicken scratch. (This is actually an old post by a former member)

Maybe we could build a compilation and publish a new Lexicon Of Musical Invective?


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

GGluek said:


> This is meant to be a fun thread. Post the statement representing an honestvtaste or opinion that is most guaranteed to start a contentious discussion among posters here. This is _not_ a place for those discussions -- only for those statements that in other circumstances might lead to them.
> 
> Here is one of mine:
> 
> I like Boris Godunov better than all of Wagner put together.


You are too soft or polite for this game you've proposed: you're supposed to say,

"Boris Godunov IS better than all of Wagner put together." 
Then maybe add, 
"John Cage's 4'33'' is worth more than all of Wagner/" 
Then add to that,
"Hell, an old chewing gum wrapper -- or just about anything else -- is worth more than all of Wagner."

There, now, is a pronouncement which also leaves your admitted personal taste out of the picture -- notice the absence of "I" and "Like." :- )

People can then react as if you are some authoritative academic (instead of innately understanding it is still a statement based upon someone's personal taste) ~ and then it can be contentious.


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## StlukesguildOhio (Dec 25, 2006)

The German/Austrian Romantic musical tradition has produced the best music of all times and all nations.

Can that really be questioned?


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## Aramis (Mar 1, 2009)

starthrower said:


> His violin concerto sounds like chicken scratch. (This is actually an old post by a former member)


There were some other gems. By Tapkaara: "all classical period music sounds like teatime in Vienna".


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

Aramis said:


> There were some other gems. By Tapkaara: "all classical period music sounds like teatime in Vienna".


My favorite Tapkaara line is the one equating Mozart's music with "stale cream puffs".


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## ahammel (Oct 10, 2012)

Aramis said:


> There were some other gems. By Tapkaara: "all classical period music sounds like teatime in Vienna".


I assume the contentious part is that there's such a thing as 'teatime' in Vienna?


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

ahammel said:


> I assume the contentious part is that there's such a thing as 'teatime' in Vienna?


I think it is whether the pastry part of the cream puffs is stale or not.

I love that oft repeated, too many 'authors' to attribute it to any one party, 
"There is no classical music after 1900."


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Monteverdi was a better composer than Bach of operas

Opera isn't mainly about singing it's about production

C P E Bach wrote better keyboard music than Haydn

Beethoven's music's crap between op 10 and op 106

The harpsichord is an expressive instrument when Leonhardt plays it

Recitative is more emotionally expressive than aria


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## Blancrocher (Jul 6, 2013)

By the time we're done, I think we'll have reproduced every post in the forum in this thread! 

:lol:


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## MagneticGhost (Apr 7, 2013)

The Viola!!!!! What a complete waste of time!

:lol::lol:


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## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

The saxophone is a legitimate but woefully underused instrument in the orchestra.


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

MagneticGhost said:


> The Viola!!!!! What a complete waste of time!
> 
> :lol::lol:


Well, yea but perhaps nay, that is if some eager and ambitious soul wishes to set up an OP to compile _yet another TC recommended list,_ there might be room for a list of pretentious and silly pronouncements for new members which they are advised best to avoid 

As far as great - greatest goes, I think Rameau is a complete equal of Bach. A contentious statement I actually believe


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## Blancrocher (Jul 6, 2013)

PetrB said:


> As far as great - greatest goes, I think Rameau is a complete equal of Bach. A contentious statement I actually believe


Not to disrupt the tone of what should be a lighthearted thread, but I really like contentious opinions of this positive sort. I hadn't heard much Rameau when I first saw you make a statement to this effect, PetrB, but I've been enjoying everything I've heard by him since.

I'll conclude with a contentious statement, however: negative judgments have no place on this forum!


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## MagneticGhost (Apr 7, 2013)

Oops! I only read the contentious part not the honest part!
I retract my viola post.


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## Pip (Aug 16, 2013)

Manxfeeder said:


> The saxophone is a legitimate but woefully underused instrument in the orchestra.


thank goodness!


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## trazom (Apr 13, 2009)

starthrower said:


> My favorite Tapkaara line is the one equating Mozart's music with "stale cream puffs".


My favorite line is where he stated on GMG Mozart was one of the five worst composers ever, and spent the rest of the thread backpedaling after getting destroyed by several posters there. It was very entertaining.:lol:


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Manxfeeder said:


> The saxophone is a legitimate but woefully underused instrument in the orchestra.


To modify an old saw: A gentleman is a person who knows how to play the saxophone but doesn't.


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## Novelette (Dec 12, 2012)

PetrB said:


> As far as great - greatest goes, I think Rameau is a complete equal of Bach. A contentious statement I actually believe


Wholeheartedly agreed, PetrB!


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## Joris (Jan 13, 2013)

Schoenberg arrogantly thought he was some kind of new Beethoven for music, but in fact he was a degenerate elitist who destroyed the basic of music and thus missed the whole point of it.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

PetrB said:


> As far as great - greatest goes, I think Rameau is a complete equal of Bach. A contentious statement I actually believe


Rameau the equal of Bach? But he's ... he's ... he's ... French!


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## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

KenOC said:


> To modify an old saw: A gentleman is a person who knows how to play the saxophone but doesn't.


Remember the original post: "This is not a place for those discussions -- only for those statements that in other circumstances might lead to them."

So be nice already!


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Manxfeeder said:


> Remember the original post: "This is not a place for those discussions..."


Surely you don't think anybody reads the OPs in these threads! But anyway, I'll be nice.

Haydn wrote some good stuff, but his symphonies sound pretty much the same.


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

KenOC said:


> Rameau the equal of Bach? But he's ... he's ... he's ... French!


Mais, mais, mais OUI... certainement, _et naturellement!_

I don't want to shock anyone, but Monteverdi -- Italian; 
Guillaume de Machaut, Josquin des Prez -- French


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## BurningDesire (Jul 15, 2012)

StlukesguildOhio said:


> The German/Austrian Romantic musical tradition has produced the best music of all times and all nations.
> 
> Can that really be questioned?


Yes, because it is absurd. :3


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## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

PetrB said:


> As far as great - greatest goes, I think Rameau is a complete equal of Bach. A contentious statement I actually believe


I still disagree, but as it made me more aware of Rameau, I'm thankful for your stating it often!


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## Blake (Nov 6, 2013)

KenOC said:


> Surely you don't think anybody reads the OPs in these threads! But anyway, I'll be nice.
> 
> *Haydn wrote some good stuff, but his symphonies sound pretty much the same.*


This is simply too casual to take seriously.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Vesuvius said:


> This is simply too casual to take seriously.


Now you're insulting my sainted mother, who actually said that. Aren't you ashamed? BTW my father disagreed... :lol:


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## dgee (Sep 26, 2013)

Beethoven 9 is three movements of the most sublime symphonic music ever created diminished by the ground-breaking, but substantially less interesting choral finale.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

dgee said:


> Beethoven 9 is three movements of the most sublime symphonic music ever created diminished by the ground-breaking, but substantially less interesting choral finale.


This is not a new or unusual opinion, but is seldom heard these days for whatever reason.


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## Blake (Nov 6, 2013)

KenOC said:


> Now you're insulting my sainted mother, who actually said that. Aren't you ashamed? BTW my father disagreed... :lol:


As long as she went back to the kitchen and made a delicious pot roast, I can forgive her.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Haydn never tires of saying, "Look how witty and urbane I am. Look how witty and urbane I am. Look how witty and urbane I am." Small wonder that Schumann spoke of Haydn as "an old family friend whom one receives gladly and respectfully but who has nothing new to tell us."

Hah!


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## Blake (Nov 6, 2013)

And where would that crack-pot be without Haydn, I wonder?


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

Haydn was one of the most significant innovators in the whole history of Western classical music.

Haydn and Mozart - particularly later in their careers - largely prefigured most of Beethoven's innovations.

Even seemingly "conservative" composers innovated to some degree (eg. Boccherini, Dvorak, Brahms), its just that they where seldom given full credit for their achievements (yep, high octane innovators tend to get the limelight!).


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## dgee (Sep 26, 2013)

While I'm on Beethoven I'd also venture to suggest the Pastoral is... I guess "lame" is one word I'm looking for but probably "static" and "boring" are better ones. Which is not new or unusual but is also seldom heard these days - in fact, maybe I'm just 100 years out of date with Beethoven trends?

Also, Verdi is the second-rate composer who has achieved the greatest fame. This is incontrovertible ;-)


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

dgee said:


> While I'm on Beethoven I'd also venture to suggest the Pastoral is... I guess "lame" is one word I'm looking for but probably "static" and "boring" are better ones. Which is not new or unusual but is also seldom heard these days - in fact, maybe I'm just 100 years out of date with Beethoven trends?
> 
> Also, Verdi is the second-rate composer who has achieved the greatest fame. This is incontrovertible ;-)


Since Verdi is "The Italian Beethoven," that confirms Luigi von as the even more famous second rate composer!


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## peeyaj (Nov 17, 2010)

These is all I can think of. (Not my opinion) Just making stuff.

*1. I wonder why anyone bother listening to atonal music, it's all academic stuff anyways.

2. Hearing the final cadence of the third movement of Rachmaninoff's Piano Concerto no. 2, I want to punch someone in the face with a victory smile in my lips.

3. All of Haydn's compositions are all second rate Mozart, why bother listening to him?

4. I think all classical music is inspired by someone in Heavens, and Atheists should not listen to them. They will burn in hell.

5. Schubert and Tchaikovsky music is so gay, that I barf every time I hear them. I need to listen to Wagner to put back my masculinity.
*


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

dgee said:


> While I'm on Beethoven I'd also venture to suggest the Pastoral is... I guess "lame" is one word I'm looking for but probably "static" and "boring" are better ones. Which is not new or unusual but is also seldom heard these days - in fact, maybe I'm just 100 years out of date with Beethoven trends?
> 
> Also, Verdi is the second-rate composer who has achieved the greatest fame. This is incontrovertible ;-)


I've never heard the nonsense about the "Pastoral" also your comment on Verdi is certainly not incontrovertible .
Oh, I see I'm not supposed to comment---well too late !


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

KenOC said:


> Now you're insulting my sainted mother, who actually said that. Aren't you ashamed? BTW my father disagreed... :lol:


Whenever a family member is referred to as a saint, that saint is the source of all the neurosis and trouble within the family and each of its members. Beware any involvement with the person who says any relative of theirs "was a saint."


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

KenOC said:


> This is not a new or unusual opinion, but is seldom heard these days for whatever reason.


After a while, the anomalous tag-on of the choral movement began to seem a natural part of it  I think it is beyond 'sensational' while I also think it is a misfit with the preceding movements.


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## ShropshireMoose (Sep 2, 2013)

"The name is enough: Lang Lang is a true keyboard lion in the tradition of Rachmaninov and Liszt, and his charisma and virtuosity fills halls and leaves audiences spellbound wherever he plays. But behind the legend is one of the most thoughtful and engaging pianists of the twenty-first century; an artist who defies preconceptions. Hear for yourself, as we welcome the world's most famous pianist- bar none."

This is from the current International Concert Season Brochure for Symphony Hall, Birmingham, and must, I think be the most contentious collection of statements that I have ever read. I could take issue with just about the whole blasted lot of it. What an unadulterated pile of rancid pap. Then, when you think it can't get any worse, that wond'rous definer of and epitome of good taste John Suchet wades in with this:

"A man who can sell out concert halls in a matter of hours, Lang Lang is truly a global superstar. Not only a unique pianist with a distinctive sound, his captivating live performances are nothing less than a visual phenomenon. This is an absolute must-see."

Well, if you're not reaching for the bucket by now, I'd be very much surprised. "nothing less than a visual phenomenon" eh? Nothing more, that's a certainty. "visual phenomenon", yeeeeees, nothing to do with music that, eh? Rather like the gentleman himself. Pshaw!!!!


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## HaydnBearstheClock (Jul 6, 2013)

KenOC said:


> Surely you don't think anybody reads the OPs in these threads! But anyway, I'll be nice.
> 
> Haydn wrote some good stuff, but his symphonies sound pretty much the same.


I can't really understand how people come to such conclusions - does symphony 44 sound like 101? Entirely different. The first almost baroque, the latter already in a mature Vienesse style. I must conclude that such statements come from those who haven't heard Haydn's symphonies properly.


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## HaydnBearstheClock (Jul 6, 2013)

KenOC said:


> Haydn never tires of saying, "Look how witty and urbane I am. Look how witty and urbane I am. Look how witty and urbane I am." Small wonder that Schumann spoke of Haydn as "an old family friend whom one receives gladly and respectfully but who has nothing new to tell us."
> 
> Hah!


Ah, those who don't 'get' Haydn's humour are missing out.


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

KenOC said:


> Haydn never tires of saying, "Look how witty and urbane I am. Look how witty and urbane I am. Look how witty and urbane I am." Small wonder that Schumann spoke of Haydn as "an old family friend whom one receives gladly and respectfully but who has nothing new to tell us."
> 
> Hah!


A little gloss of history might help here: Beethoven was the one amid the shift from most everyone thinking they were a part of everything, or belonged to an area, a lord, a master or liege of some sort, to the notion of "individual" and "individuality." Haydn, pre-indivdual era; Schumann, post individual era, where Individual / Unique began to not only be of utmost importance, it began to reign.

Symphonies:
Haydn ~ hundreds
Mozart ~ forty (died young)
Beethoven ~ nine (died not quite so young
Schubert ~ eight and a half [great title for a movie or some such] (died young)
Schumann ~ four

Hah!


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## Aramis (Mar 1, 2009)

PetrB said:


> Symphonies:
> Haydn ~ hundreds
> Mozart ~ forty (died young)
> Beethoven ~ nine (died not quite so young
> ...


Leif Segerstam ~ two hundred and seventy


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## Vesteralen (Jul 14, 2011)

GGluek said:


> This is meant to be a fun thread. Post the statement representing an honestvtaste or opinion that is most guaranteed to start a contentious discussion among posters here. *This is not a place for those discussions -- only for those statements that in other circumstances might lead to them. *
> Here is one of mine:
> 
> I like Boris Godunov better than all of Wagner put together.
> ...


Reading over this thread confirms my desire not to post on it:

As with any such OP statement as "this is not a place for....", it quickly becomes "a place for".

Posters at complete cross-purposes. 

_but, of course, as you can see, I just posted on it._


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## Sudonim (Feb 28, 2013)

Classical music? It's so _boring._ And it all sounds the same.


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

Sudonim said:


> Classical music? It's so _boring._ And it all sounds the same.


Right, and all ______ (name your racial group) people look alike


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

12-tone composition is one of those stupid ideas whose invention was inevitable because it is so damned obvious. It is simply amazing it took so long for it to be ejected from the world's digestive tract.

The great majority of Mozart's music is really pretty mediocre. The problem is that most Mozart lovers can't tell the difference between the good stuff and the dreck.

On the whole, C.P.E. Bach's keyboard concertos are more interesting than Mozart's.

The Darmstadt School was a CIA funded plot to destroy the continuity of German high culture.

Charles Ives was a charlatan who deviously predated and revised his theretofore unpublished music in order to pass as an innovator.

Carl Ruggles was the manliest composer of the 20th century.


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

Oops! Misread the OP. These are supposed to be opinions I actually believe? My apologies: there were many manlier composers than Carl Ruggles.


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

Aramis said:


> Leif Segerstam ~ two hundred and seventy


Clearly, he not only talked all the time = too much, but he talked all the time too much more than Wagner!


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

EdwardBast said:


> The Darmstadt School was a CIA funded plot to destroy the continuity of German high culture.


I'm liking this one a lot!

Do you think you should work that up into _a feasible Opera libretto_?


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## violadude (May 2, 2011)

A good majority of classical music (especially pre-20th century classical music) is rhythmically boring, especially once you've heard traditional Indian and African music.


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

violadude said:


> A good majority of classical music (especially pre-20th century classical music) is rhythmically boring, especially once you've heard traditional Indian and African music.


Is that actually contentious?


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## violadude (May 2, 2011)

PetrB said:


> Is that actually contentious?


I'm not sure. To some it may be  It was one of the only contentious statements I could come up with given it had to be something you actually believe.


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

violadude said:


> I'm not sure. To some it may be  It was one of the only contentious statements I could come up with given it had to be something you actually believe.


zOMG, LOL I misread the OP (though I did get in one "contentious" I believe in.)

Soooo, on the rhythm front, I somewhat agree with your contention!


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

Kiddie stuff, my friends.

Jews have imitated the Austro-German styles with some facility but it is marred by inauthenticity. There is no significant classical music tradition to come out of and belong uniquely to Israel. In other words, Wagner was more or less right in _Jewishness in Music_.


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## dgee (Sep 26, 2013)

For better or worse - you have pwned this thread. You, sir, are an animal


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## Bellinilover (Jul 24, 2013)

dgee said:


> For better or worse - you have pwned this thread. You, sir, are an animal


Yeah, that disgusted me as well. Obviously, Gregory Peck was right in _Gentleman's Agreement_ when he said that antisemitism is not found only "way off in some dark, crackpot place with low-class morons."


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## scratchgolf (Nov 15, 2013)

Leonard Bernstein was buried with a copy of Mahler's 5th over his heart. What's a shame he didn't choose Shostakovich's 7th. Every copy in existence :lol:


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## violadude (May 2, 2011)

I don't know how contentious this is, but I don't think the fact that Beethoven was deaf and still composed is all that amazing and I think a lot of people put way too much emphasis on the fact that he was deaf as a contributing "wow" factor to his music. The truth is most composers learn to train their inner ear so that they don't have to rely entirely on a piano to compose and composing away from the piano is something Beethoven frequently told his students to do. It's not that hard for me to imagine most of the great composers being able to compose purely by translating the sounds in their head onto paper, even though many of them use the piano anyway just because it makes it easier.


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## Avey (Mar 5, 2013)

scratchgolf said:


> Leonard Bernstein was buried with a copy of Mahler's 5th over his heart.


Is this true? I have no words for how incredible that is.


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## scratchgolf (Nov 15, 2013)

Avey said:


> Is this true? I have no words for how incredible that is.


It is. His love of Beethoven was only outweighed by his love of Mahler.


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## scratchgolf (Nov 15, 2013)

violadude said:


> I don't know how contentious this is, but I don't think the fact that Beethoven was deaf and still composed is all that amazing and I think a lot of people put way too much emphasis on the fact that he was deaf as a contributing "wow" factor to his music. The truth is most composers learn to train their inner ear so that they don't have to rely entirely on a piano to compose and composing away from the piano is something Beethoven frequently told his students to do. It's not that hard for me to imagine most of the great composers being able to compose purely by translating the sounds in their head onto paper, even though many of them use the piano anyway just because it makes it easier.


I can't say I totally agree with you but I see your point. There was certainly genius at work that we can't quite comprehend. I do think it affects the way Beethoven is viewed so I'll transition to my next statement....

.....Beethoven, Mozart, and Haydn were all musical geniuses. Beethoven's legacy gets enhanced by his deafness. Mozart's by his untimely demise. Haydn's legacy takes a hit because he lived a longer life.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Avey said:


> Is this true? I have no words for how incredible that is.


Smetana also became deaf, probably more profoundly deaf than Beethoven. His greatest works were composed after his hearing went south.


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## dgee (Sep 26, 2013)

violadude said:


> I don't know how contentious this is, but I don't think the fact that Beethoven was deaf and still composed is all that amazing and I think a lot of people put way too much emphasis on the fact that he was deaf as a contributing "wow" factor to his music. The truth is most composers learn to train their inner ear so that they don't have to rely entirely on a piano to compose and composing away from the piano is something Beethoven frequently told his students to do. It's not that hard for me to imagine most of the great composers being able to compose purely by translating the sounds in their head onto paper, even though many of them use the piano anyway just because it makes it easier.


Absolutely agree - composers don't sit down and bash it out at the piano! That's Hollywood stuff - Mr Holland's Opus. So while it may have been sad for Beethoven to lose his hearing it needn't have been a massive impediment to him composing.

Incidentally, I have a friend who's a pretty good and successful composer (agent, publisher, commissions, competition wins - that sort of composer) who prefers to write, edit and proof music sitting in front of televised sport or in busy cafes. The good ones have internal pitch and rhythm machines (and notating skills) that are just in a different league


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

dgee said:


> Absolutely agree - composers don't sit down and bash it out at the piano! That's Hollywood stuff...


Actually many composers do just that. Beethoven composed at the piano even after becoming quite deaf -- he had a special sounding board built, and even played holding a pencil between his teeth and in contact with the piano -- bone conduction. He advised his students to always keep a small "composing piano" near them to try out ideas.

Others don't. Bach composed while riding in a coach or whatever. He derided those who needed a keyboard as "finger composers."

I don't think any generalizations here have very much value.


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## dgee (Sep 26, 2013)

Beethoven wouldn't have needed the keyboard tho, or the actualisation of the sounds - it was surely a habit, especially in the era of improvisatory playing and probably a habit most common to composers who also happened to be performing pianists. In any case, I more wanted to support the dispelling of the myth that composers of all sorts are curiously chunking out chords and lines on their faithful Steinway to check if it's a C# or a D which they will then write painstakingly on their manuscript.

Except perhaps for the fascinating Carl Ruggles who was known to do almost exactly that


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## ahammel (Oct 10, 2012)

dgee said:


> Absolutely agree - composers don't sit down and bash it out at the piano!


Contrary to myth, Mozart apparently found it difficult to compose away from the keyboard.

Berlioz, on the other hand, never learned how to play the piano!


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## Blake (Nov 6, 2013)

I see the piano as Beethoven and Mozart's original voice. Sure they could compose without it, but the piano was their prodigious stamp.


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## Aramis (Mar 1, 2009)

ahammel said:


> Berlioz, on the other hand, never learned how to play the piano!


But he was so proficient with flute, guitar and singing that when he wanted to try out all parts of _Symphonie Fantastique_ and hear how they sound together, he played and sang them all with these, simultaneously.


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## Rhombic (Oct 28, 2013)

Russian music is better than the rest of the world's music put together.


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## Blancrocher (Jul 6, 2013)

Rhombic said:


> Russian music is better than the rest of the world's music put together.


Actually, as a Shostakovich and Schnittke fan I can assure you that Russian music _is_ the rest of the world's music put together!


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## ahammel (Oct 10, 2012)

Blancrocher said:


> Actually, as a Shostakovich and Schnittke fan I can assure you that Russian music _is_ the rest of the world's music put together!


:lol:

Well done indeed, sir or madam.


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## Huilunsoittaja (Apr 6, 2010)

For the past 1000 years, music has been on the uptrend of getting _better and better_...


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## hreichgott (Dec 31, 2012)

KenOC said:


> Actually many composers do just that. Beethoven composed at the piano even after becoming quite deaf -- he had a special sounding board built, and even played holding a pencil between his teeth and in contact with the piano -- bone conduction. He advised his students to always keep a small "composing piano" near them to try out ideas.
> 
> Others don't. Bach composed while riding in a coach or whatever. He derided those who needed a keyboard as "finger composers."
> 
> I don't think any generalizations here have very much value.


I seem to recall a story about Rachmaninoff, while on the boat to America, making a paper piano keyboard so he could compose en route. He could imagine the sounds perfectly well but he needed something to put his fingers on to work out ideas. Anyone know if this is true?


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## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

hreichgott said:


> I seem to recall a story about Rachmaninoff, while on the boat to America, making a paper piano keyboard so he could compose en route. He could imagine the sounds perfectly well but he needed something to put his fingers on to work out ideas. Anyone know if this is true?


I haven't heard that, but Stravinsky's reason for writing at the keyboard was similar. He liked to be able to feel the "weight" of the intervals he used as he wrote them.


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## Aramis (Mar 1, 2009)

hreichgott said:


> I seem to recall a story about Rachmaninoff, while on the boat to America, making a paper piano keyboard so he could compose en route. He could imagine the sounds perfectly well but he needed something to put his fingers on to work out ideas. Anyone know if this is true?


I recall the story about Arthur Rubinstein doing the same while on the train, heard from a pianist. Perhaps it's one of those many things that are attributed to various artists, like the "he was heard singing Mozart when three months old" stuff.


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

dgee said:


> Absolutely agree - composers don't sit down and bash it out at the piano! That's Hollywood stuff - Mr Holland's Opus. So while it may have been sad for Beethoven to lose his hearing it needn't have been a massive impediment to him composing.


Actually, and strangely enough, I believe this is incorrect. I am pretty sure that Beethoven, in the act of composition, did pound it out at the piano, ever louder as his hearing loss progressed and, in the end, with his ear pressed against the wood of the instrument. If I owned a copy of Schindler's Beethoven as I Knew Him (title?), I could verify this. I am not arguing that this was absolutely necessary to his composing, only that - if memory serves - it was in fact how he did compose.

Edit: Oops, hreichgott already stated this with more detail. Well, this can stand as confirmation of a sort.


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

hreichgott said:


> I seem to recall a story about Rachmaninoff, while on the boat to America, making a paper piano keyboard so he could compose en route. He could imagine the sounds perfectly well but he needed something to put his fingers on to work out ideas. Anyone know if this is true?


I know that he indeed traveled with a paper piano. Just not sure whether he was using it to compose or to practice repertoire he was to perform. My guess would be the latter. If I knew the year of the trip I would likely have an answer. He composed so little after 1917 - only six opuses over the next 26 years, during which his principal occupation was a heavily booked piano soloist with major orchestras. He did compose at the piano but had really acute perfect pitch.


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

Mahlerian said:


> I haven't heard that, but Stravinsky's reason for writing at the keyboard was similar. He liked to be able to feel the "weight" of the intervals he used as he wrote them.


Not sure if this is relevant, but unlike Rimsky-Korsakoff, Rachmaninoff, Prokofiev, and Shostakovich, I believe Stravinsky did not have perfect pitch. Not sure if he depended on a piano in composing.


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