# The Hilliard Ensemble



## flamencosketches

I have but a few discs of this legendary, now-defunct British vocal quartet. They are each dedicated to a sole composer of the medieval or renaissance: Pérotin, Josquin Desprez & Walter Frye. I absolutely love all of them. 

What do you all think of the Hilliard Ensemble? Are you as enamored with their beautiful, fluid polyphony as I am? Or do you find their smooth, sensuous and spacious voices grating on the nerves? Are they HIP enough for you? 

Now, I ask you all. Are there any essential Hilliard Ensemble discs out there that I must track down immediately? I think I like the ECM records better than the earlier ones on Virgin, but maybe I ought to spend more time with these earlier recordings. There are a few cheap box sets out now. 

Speaking personally, I highly recommend tracking down the Pérotin disc on ECM to anyone reading this thread that does not have it. I listened to it in full yesterday and was absolutely floored.

Looking forward to hopefully seeing some discussion here.


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## flamencosketches

I just ordered this:









I'm fond of Machaut, the Notre Dame Mass & the chansons, but I don't think I'm familiar with any of his Motets.


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## Mandryka

flamencosketches said:


> Now, I ask you all. Are there any essential Hilliard Ensemble discs out there that I must track down immediately?


Every one of them. And all the recordings that John Potter, Rogers Covey Crump and Paul Hillier made outside of the Hilliard Ensemble.

Lassus especially seems to me to be one of their major strengths -- and not just on ECM.


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## Mandryka

flamencosketches said:


> I just ordered this:
> 
> View attachment 133495
> 
> 
> I'm fond of Machaut, the Notre Dame Mass & the chansons, but I don't think I'm familiar with any of his Motets.


If anyone is interested in Lachenmann then they're bound to be interested in Heinz Holliger too, so this recording is a goodie.









I'm very keen on that Machaut motets recording -- but a word of warning. It really benefits from a good hifi, so that the image is clear with each voice cleanly in its space.


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## flamencosketches

Mandryka said:


> If anyone is interested in Lachenmann then they're bound to be interested in Heinz Holliger too, so this recording is a goodie.
> 
> View attachment 133497
> 
> 
> I'm very keen on that Machaut motets recording -- but a word of warning. It really benefits from a good hifi, so that the image is clear with each voice cleanly in its space.


OK, thanks. I'll look into it. I know nothing of Holliger beyond his skillful oboe playing. The idea of Machaut transcriptions sounds interesting. Moreover I will try and find some Lassus that they've done. That's a composer I'm curious to begin exploring; I have a disc of Herreweghe conducting his late sacred madrigals, but that's about it.


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## Manxfeeder

I really like the Hilliard Ensemble's recordings of Arvo Part, and I agree with the enthusiasm for their Perotin recording. Their Gesualdo is also well done as well as Lassus and Gombert, though in these they tend to encourage expressiveness among the individual voices/timbres, which I guess is historically accurate, but sometimes it makes it difficult to follow the line of the polyphony, at least for me (for example, an individual swelling his voice distracts me into thinking something is happening there when I should be following another voice). I feel like I'm not so much listening to Lassus as I am listening to them singing Lassus. Personally, in the Renaissance, I prefer groups like the Orlando Consort, who keep the four parts consistent yet without sacrificing individuality, if that makes sense. Maybe it's just a personal preference.


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## flamencosketches

Manxfeeder said:


> I really like the Hilliard Ensemble's recordings of Arvo Part, and I agree with the enthusiasm for their Perotin recording. Their Gesualdo is also well done as well as Lassus and Gombert, though in these they tend to encourage expressiveness among the individual voices/timbres, which I guess is historically accurate, but sometimes it makes it difficult to follow the line of the polyphony, at least for me (for example, an individual swelling his voice distracts me into thinking something is happening there when I should be following another voice). I feel like I'm not so much listening to Lassus as I am listening to them singing Lassus. Personally, in the Renaissance, I prefer groups like the Orlando Consort, who keep the four parts consistent yet without sacrificing individuality, if that makes sense. Maybe it's just a personal preference.


Wow, they've recorded a ton of Machaut (the Orlando Consort). I'll have to hear some of it. Thanks for sharing your perspective. I hadn't thought of the Hilliards like that. If anything I thought maybe they smoothed out the individual lines too much. Though it's likely of course that they are more effective in some repertoire than others.


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## Manxfeeder

flamencosketches said:


> Wow, they've recorded a ton of Machaut (the Orlando Consort). I'll have to hear some of it. Thanks for sharing your perspective. I hadn't thought of the Hilliards like that. If anything I thought maybe they smoothed out the individual lines too much. Though it's likely of course that they are more effective in some repertoire than others.


Again, as you said, that's just my perspective.

If you want to explore the Orlando Consort, try their Ockeghem Missa De Plus En Plus.


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## flamencosketches

Manxfeeder said:


> Again, as you said, that's just my perspective.
> 
> If you want to explore the Orlando Consort, try their Ockeghem Missa De Plus En Plus.


Will do. I'm curious about their Machaut project too, though Ockeghem is a composer I ought to explore more. I've only heard his Requiem.


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## Mandryka

Manxfeeder said:


> Again, as you said, that's just my perspective.
> 
> If you want to explore the Orlando Consort, try their Ockeghem Missa De Plus En Plus.


And indeed Hilliard recorded the Credo from Missa de plus en plus (on the live CD _For Ockeghem_.)


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## philoctetes

It was the Hilliards with Jan Garbarek that got ECM off to creating hybrid genres with early music several decades ago... I never liked Officium all that much, cause I don't like Garbarek's tone, but the recipe has been used with excellent results...I especially like the two recent CDs by Arne Henriksen and Trio Medieval..

I like the Ockeghem recorded by Kandel and Musica Nova and they also have some Machaut I haven't heard yet...


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## Mandryka

flamencosketches said:


> I have but a few discs of this legendary, now-defunct British vocal quartet. They are each dedicated to a sole composer of the medieval or renaissance: Pérotin, Josquin Desprez & Walter Frye. I absolutely love all of them.
> 
> What do you all think of the Hilliard Ensemble? Are you as enamored with their beautiful, fluid polyphony as I am? Or do you find their smooth, sensuous and spacious voices grating on the nerves? Are they HIP enough for you?
> 
> Now, I ask you all. Are there any essential Hilliard Ensemble discs out there that I must track down immediately? I think I like the ECM records better than the earlier ones on Virgin, but maybe I ought to spend more time with these earlier recordings. There are a few cheap box sets out now.
> 
> Speaking personally, I highly recommend tracking down the Pérotin disc on ECM to anyone reading this thread that does not have it. I listened to it in full yesterday and was absolutely floored.
> 
> Looking forward to hopefully seeing some discussion here.


The Hilliard Ensemble did not really record Gregorian chant. But two of their members - John Potter and Rogers Covey Crump recorded three CDs of conductus, with tenor Christopher O'Gorman - conductus is related to chant in a way I couldn't begin to explain, except to say that it is often close to monophonic. They're very rewarding I think, especially the first two volumes.









There's some stuff about it on John Potter's website here

https://www.john-potter.co.uk/conductus.php

And Paul Hillier, who went to work with a large ensemble called Theatre of Voices, produced a wonderful chant CD I think, though I'm not sure whether you could call it _Gregorian_. This









By accident I just found myself on John Potter's twitter page, it's lively! A comment of his prompted me to listen to a Josquin lute transcription played by Jacob Herringman, and I'm glad I did. I suspect twitter is an excellent resource which I don't use enough.

I'm quite tempted to ask him via twitter if there are any chant recordings which are close in spirit to what he was trying to do with Hilliard Ensemble.

Re Orlando Consort, there's clearly a very strong relationship between the two ensembles. They have much in common I'd say.

I listened again to the Machaut Holliger CD last night, I think it's very special.


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## Mandryka

philoctetes said:


> .I especially like the two recent CDs by Arne Henriksen and Trio Medieval..
> ..


Yes, and I'd be very surprised if it weren't the case that Trio Medieval and the former members of the Hilliard Ensemble don't sound off ideas with each other.


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## Sad Al

John Potter is super. After Hilliard, I like his records as a member of the 'Sound and Fury' ensemble. For example their Obrecht, Caron, Gombert, Faugues.


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## flamencosketches

Sad Al said:


> John Potter is super. After Hilliard, I like his records as a member of the 'Sound and Fury' ensemble. For example their Obrecht, Caron, Gombert, Faugues.


I didn't know John Potter joined the Sound and Fury. That's cool, I've been meaning to check out their work too.

Going back to the Orlando Consort for a second, it sounds like they are singing (at least in their recent Machaut recording) in some really unusual tuning. It's fascinating.

@Mandryka, thank you for the chant recs. I listen to the Hilliards for experiences in the realm of polyphony, but I can see these beautiful voices being effective in the realm of monophonic chant, too.

As for Paul Hilliard + the Theatre of Voices, I have their Stockhausen Stimmung disc, which I believe you once recommended to me as well. Veeery strange music, but I like it.


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## Sad Al

flamencosketches said:


> I didn't know John Potter joined the Sound and Fury. That's cool, I've been meaning to check out their work too.


About The Sound and The Fury. I can recommend Johannes Ockeghem 2, Pierre de la Rue 1 and Guillaume Faugues 2. I'm not here to sell anything, but there are samples at orf.at


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## philoctetes

The S&F took some getting accustomed to for me... their ensemble voices are so independent they often sound coarse and unblended... comparing their Ockeghem with Kandel's for example... which after a while becomes a feature not a fault... it reveals the lower voices... for a while I strongly favored Beauty Farm but now I like them all 

The one group I've kinda dropped from my rotation lately is The Brabant Ensemble... while Cinquecento and Capella Pratensis have held up well...

Aside from Ockeghem and Josquin, another composer that gets a lot of my playtime is La Rue...


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## Sad Al

The S & F is a rough ride indeed. I am listening to their Obrecht, it's more relevant than ever, for obvious reasons.







The best composer in the late 15th century during the time when Leonardo da Vinci painted his masterworks.

Although he and Jim Carrey of the Dumb and dumber fame may have something in common.


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## flamencosketches

Been listening to their Dowland disc on EMI nonstop. I wish they'd recorded more of his work. Just got this:










Anyone listening to the Hilliards lately? I am completely obsessed.


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## Mandryka

flamencosketches said:


> Been listening to their Dowland disc on EMI nonstop. I wish they'd recorded more of his work. Just got this:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Anyone listening to the Hilliards lately? I am completely obsessed.


John Potter went on to do a lot of Dowland after the Hilliard Ensemble had disbanded - have a look at this

https://www.john-potter.co.uk/dowland.php


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## flamencosketches

Mandryka said:


> John Potter went on to do a lot of Dowland after the Hilliard Ensemble had disbanded - have a look at this
> 
> https://www.john-potter.co.uk/dowland.php


I've heard about these. Sounds like a totally odd idea to me, fusing Dowland with modern jazz, but if it's good then it's good. I'll have to find some of it.


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## Mandryka

flamencosketches said:


> I've heard about these. Sounds like a totally odd idea to me, fusing Dowland with modern jazz, but if it's good then it's good. I'll have to find some of it.


I can do without it, but it exists.


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