# Grand Theft Auto IV gets a classical makeover (sort of)



## cmb (Dec 20, 2006)

(reposted from the Ludologist blog)
GTA IV and Philip Glass

So the GTA IV trailer features music by Philip Glass and looks a lot like Koyaanisqatsi.

For a moment I am hoping that Rockstar is really thinking outside the box - after 80’s kitsch and Hip hop, the time has come to build a game around classical minimalist composers, with Terry Riley, John Cage, et al. as starring characters.

Probably not, but it would be outside the box.


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## Mr Salek (Apr 11, 2006)

It would be good if they kept it as GTA and we got to go around killing them


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## cato (Dec 2, 2006)

Personaly, I am against the idea of classical music being part of a sick, debased video game, such as GTA. :angry: 

Let's not cast our gems before the swine of this perverse society that we live in. :angry: 

I know that some would argue that it would be a way to "introduce" culture to the masses. However, I would point out that the majority of people playing such a violent, sick video came such as GTA, are mindless morons that could not care less about the finer things in life, like classical music.  

You may, possably, by chance, get a handful to "dig" Philip Glass, but you can forget about these thugs even begining to like (or understand) something like J. S. Bach's Mass In B Minor.  

No, let them eat cake (or dirt for all I care) and we can sit comfortably above them, enjoying the fruits of a culture we have taken 2,000 years to create.


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## cmb (Dec 20, 2006)

cato said:


> Personaly, I am against the idea of classical music being part of a sick, debased video game, such as GTA. :angry:
> 
> Let's not cast our gems before the swine of this perverse society that we live in. :angry:
> 
> ...


Um thanks for calling me a mindless moron, a 40+ y/o woman with a masters degree in opera and a programmer by trade. Also note that you lump Joshua Bell (an avid gamer), into that distinction, as well as an assortment of symphony musicians throughout the US.
Some people are able to play video games and make the distinction that it is just that - a game.


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## cato (Dec 2, 2006)

Although you seem to be the exception, and not the rule, when it comes to sick games like GTA, I still stand by my statement on the subject.

As for it being just a game..... it is much more then that.

These games, along with sick, debased movies and "gansta rap" have draged our society down a sewer.

I have watched these forms of "entertainment" rise, along with skyrocketing crime rates.

Is there a connection? You bet there is! We would be much better off without these games, movies, and so called, "music".

Because I am old enough to rememeber a time when we were better off.


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## The Mad Hatter (Feb 20, 2007)

cato said:


> Although you seem to be the exception, and not the rule, when it comes to sick games like GTA, I still stand by my statement on the subject.
> 
> As for it being just a game..... it is much more then that.
> 
> ...


Minority? I doubt it. More than a game? Care to elaborate?

Entertainment does not cause changes in society. Society causes changes in entertainment. Is there a connection? Of course there is, but it works in the opposite direction to the one which you're implying. All these filmmakers, game-makers and musicians (and I use the term without flinching) are doing is catering to an audience that is already there.


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## LovesThePav (Apr 9, 2007)

Speaking of fun uses of classical music: I'm on spring break so I was watching _Man on Fire_. In a lovely scene where Denzle Washington is about to shoot a guy in the head Pavarotti's Nessun Dorma is playing on the radio. Of course the guy dies during the song climax of "victory."

I really have no issue with classical music being used it, shall we say, non-classical ways. It is used for its passion and driving emotion --nothing to be offended over.


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## LovesThePav (Apr 9, 2007)

cato said:


> As for it being just a game..... it is much more then that.
> 
> These games, along with sick, debased movies and "gansta rap" have draged our society down a sewer.


And to you I say, Art reflects life. There has to be the "base" desire for such art to prosper.


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## cmb (Dec 20, 2006)

Cato - I remember when rap and Hip Hop first started to play on the radio - I still think Grandmaster Flash and Public Enemy are/were brilliant. I make room for all types of music, because all of it has something to say.

All genres of music, including classical, evolve and devolve - I don't particularly care for the "machine noise" types of classical composition, although I do program it. It all has something to say - remember that if one person crosses over and starts exploring classical music because they HEARD IT IN A VIDEO GAME - this is a good thing. (I have a couple of 20-something gamers in my acquaintance who did just that - they regularly listen to my programming along with the latest release by Guster)

Keep in mind that in Liszt's time, his concert appearances caused riots in the streets - should he have been banned, because it caused people to behave in a way not currently accepted by society during his time?

Just raising a few questions...


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## cmb (Dec 20, 2006)

actually Pav, you bring up a good point - think of all the people who ran out to get a copy of the Shawshank Redemption soundtrack, because of "Sull' aria". Did they ALL become converts to opera? Probably not, but again, if it converts a few, that keeps our genre alive.


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## The Mad Hatter (Feb 20, 2007)

cmb said:


> remember that if one person crosses over and starts exploring classical music because they HEARD IT IN A VIDEO GAME - this is a good thing.


Heh, that's how it happened with me. Beethoven's Moonlight Sonata was the first classical piece I ever loved (it's still my favourite piece), and I heard it in Earthworm Jim 2.

Though, these days, I prefer the Barenboim version...


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## Keemun (Mar 2, 2007)

Entertainment has no power over society, it is simply a reflection of society. Violent video games and gangsta' rap are symptoms of society's problems. If a person has cancer, treating the symptoms of the cancer (e.g. pain) does not cure the cancer. In order to cure the cancer, you have to look beyond the symptoms and tackle the root of the problem. The same goes for society's problems. It's easy to attack violent video games and gangsta' rap, but what really needs to be addressed is the underlying cause. That said, it is also important to treat the symptoms, but this clearly must be secondary to curing the problem. A person whose cancer causes them pain will not only want to receive treatment for the cancer, but also treatment for the pain. Condoning violent video games and gangsta' rap certainly doesn't help society. I am, of course, making the presumption that there are problems in society, so if you disagree, then this discussion is moot.


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## cato (Dec 2, 2006)

You all make some good points, however, you miss my main point, which in fact comes back to prove my main point...... something has gone wrong in Western Culture, and it spells the end of everything we hold dear.

OK, so some, very few, myself included, were first introduced to classical through TV, movies, or, (ugh) video games. So what? It does not take away from my main point that these mediums are draging our society down a sewer, and dumbing us down. 

Case in point: Star Trek. When I was intorduced to opera and classical music through Star Trek, (back when I used to watch TV, which I no longer do) it was the most "cultured" and "Brainy" TV show on TV. Those days are gone. A few years ago, when the last Star Trek show (Enterprise) was launched, it's writers and producers, dropped all references to classical music and opera. The reason? They said in an interview, that they were dropping any reference to "high-brow culture" because "today's TV watchers" find it "booring" and don't understand it. So it's gone, and it's not coming back.

The refernce to Liszt causing a riot in his time with his music, is not relevent to our problem today that we face. First, Liszt is not "Snoop doggy dog", and had he tried to "sing" (rap) those songs, he would have been put to death. Second, the 19th Century was a time before TV, Movies, and Video Games, which means people still had passion about such things. Not any more. The only way you are going to start a riot, is if you are a white guy and you use the "N" word, or if they ever re-arrest OJ. 

Again, my main point is that classical music is a gift that has been handed down to us, and we should not let it be debased by using it as a sound track for a video game in which police officers are killed, and gang members rule supreme.

By the way, YES, I would ban that game, and a few movies and "gansta rap". They have no place in Western Culture, and they are helping to grind it into dust.


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## cato (Dec 2, 2006)

I agree with Keemun!


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## ChamberNut (Jan 30, 2007)

cato said:


> *OK, so some, very few, myself included, were first introduced to classical through TV, movies*, or, (ugh) video games. So what? It does not take away from my main point that these mediums are draging our society down a sewer, and dumbing us down.


I'll have to respectfully disagree with you on that one Cato. I think alot more people than you think have been introduced to classical music via TV and movies. I got intrigued and hooked by music in Stanley Kubrick's movies (A Clockwork Orange, 2001: A Space Odyssey, Barry Lyndon, Eyes Wide Shut).


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## cmb (Dec 20, 2006)

Which gets back to my point - if you ban the medium that sends the message, ultimately you ban the message. You may want to do some reading on Liszt's life before you make the claim that he "is no Snoop Dogg". He broke up many marriages, womanized to an extent that might make Ron Jeremy take pause, and lived life very much on the edge. 

SD and Liszt might have a little more in common than you think - women would follow him (Liszt)from country to country, chasing after him on concert tours, and scandalizing their families and the towns he appeared in. Towns would ban him from concert appearances because of the riots.

What is my point? If you put it in perspective, some classical musicians/composers/performers were the Snoop Doggs/Sex Pistols of their time. Whether we like it or not, culture WILL change with the times, and things that may seem out of control now will over time, become much more accepted. This is not to say that violence/crime are to be heralded as the new mores.

But to completely denigrate an extremely popular video game that has taken (for that industry) a fairly daring step into using classical music (albeit modern minimalist) as the soundtrack is a step BACKWARD, not forward. Sales of GTA number in the millions - lets say, for conversational purposes, than .01 percent move to start listening to classical music because of this exposure - are you really saying that we should turn away those listeners? 

I'm no mathmetician, but I'll take those numbers.


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## Keemun (Mar 2, 2007)

I certainly wouldn't go so far as to ban violent video games or gangsta' rap; I believe too much in the freedom of speech, even those forms of speech I find distasteful. The problem should be solved on the individual level, beginning with parents taking responsibility for their children's entertainment.


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## Frasier (Mar 10, 2007)

cato said:


> You all make some good points, however, you miss my main point, which in fact comes back to prove my main point...... something has gone wrong in Western Culture, and it spells the end of everything we hold dear.
> 
> By the way, YES, I would ban that game, and a few movies and "gansta rap". They have no place in Western Culture, and they are helping to grind it into dust.


I tend to support your case because of a certain background concerning the regulation of consumer behaviour and the fact that the media know they influence society far more than people imagine. Society was once the result of the shared orientations of its members - now it is more influenced by the media who push their view of normality on the public. People gather a lot less than they once did. They watch screens and type messages to each other. Face-to-face is a dying situation.

There is precious little "scientific evidence" of how these influences work partly because the media don't want that. The fact that it would be exceedingly expensive helps. But people know. A few years ago I attended a conference by the Independent Broadcasting Authority where speakers spoke of "responsibility" because the consensus was that the media regulate society more than any government or religious organisation could.

A priceless example was the "no-smoking" lobby managing to get smoking banned from soaps on UK TV - on the grounds of the images encouraging young people to smoke. A prominent politician said, "Ah, I see...so we can show teenage drug abuse, underage sex, adultery, domestic violence (etc etc) but we don't want viewers smoking."

So seeing it from outside the box, I'd say you're probably right about GTA and such games. I personally don't care but policies like introducing "classical music" whatever that is, through games and incidental TV music seem a bit pointless. Might work with 1% or 2. But with the amount of "classical" music around us these days, potential converts will find a way if they're that interested. Still, better some decent music than some of the dross I've heard coming out of game consoles.


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## cato (Dec 2, 2006)

Frasier, I could not agree with you more!  

You are so correct!  

If video games, music, TV, and movies, did not influnce peoples behavors, then advertisers have waisted billions of dollars on ads and products.

Everyone knows what a Coke is, and how it tastes, it has been around in the U.S. for almost 100 years. So why does every movie in a theater begin with a Coke ad?

Why flood the TV and Radio with Coke ads?

It is not to "introduce" a product, or "test" one, it is because through the flashy photos, and music, they can get, or infulence you to buy a Coke. They have been studying how the human mind works for years, and they are getting better at changing our behavors.

Does GTA, or "Snoop Doggy", or a movie like "The Departed" make people murder other people? Humm.... good question. Consider this.

I grew up in Phoenix, AZ., and my dad, and all my friend's fathers had guns, and lot's of them. Loaded, easy to reach guns. My dad had a 3.57 magnum, a 9mm, and a shotgun, loaded, under his bed. So did all of my friends. And there were boxes of ammo too.

Yet, none of us, at my school, or any schools in my state, or..... ANY SCHOOLS in the U.S. had ANY school shootings durring the time I was in High School 1974-1978.

And by strange coincidence, there were NO violent video games like GTA, the violence in the movies was mild, and today would get a pg-13 rating. And the "pop music" sang about love, not blowing somebody's head off, or raping a "ho".

Is there a connection? Good question, but I doubt we will ever settle it. However, this much is for sure: Those who produce, sell and pimp this gutter trash (like GTA) are the enemies of Western Culture, that is "The West". They are not our friends, and through their polution of our society, (even if they play some classical music on their sick games or movies), they are taking our culture down to the level of a sewer.

You are either on the side of Western Culture, or it's advesary. There is no "middle ground" when Rome is being burned to the ground. :angry:


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## The Mad Hatter (Feb 20, 2007)

cato said:


> Frasier, I could not agree with you more!
> 
> You are so correct!
> 
> ...


Um...those games and movies exist in Europe as well, and are very popular. But these high school shootings, for instance, are an entirely American phenomenon. Are you sure, then, that it's the cause of the games, and not society?

I have no argument that advertising is not pervasive: it is. Without a doubt. But these game and film and music companies are not advertising the lifestyle. There isn't a person in existence who lives a life like that for fun.

As for your final grand, sweeping statement - who decides what makes western culture? To ignore popular culture is to be at risk of ignoring much great art (Didn't Nobel literature laureate Seamus Heaney name Eminem as the most promising up-and-coming poet of his generation a couple of years ago?).

Finally I'll draw your attention to a study conducted in Ireland about ten years ago (I can't find a citation, sorry), which showed that violent tendencies were more common in children who watched soap operas than in children who watched violent movies. Is there a link there to soap operas and violent teenagers? Gasp!


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## Lisztfreak (Jan 4, 2007)

What do you consider as 'Western Culture', cato?


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## Frasier (Mar 10, 2007)

Unfortunately the Western culture (as is, at the moment) includes a market where one is allowed to sell anything within the bounds of the law. 
When something has been 'proved' to do harm (some way or another), it becomes the subject of legislation and restriction. Personal freedom is fine but it's well known that a proportion of the population do not act responsibly. Hence legislation - as, for instance, against child pornography, murder, house-breaking, burgling, you name it. Violent fictional media have not yet been *proved* harmful. Sometimes the media can be persuaded that some images might aggrevate social unrest...that's why they no longer show clips of shops being looted during riots - because it was realised that it triggered an upsurge of people getting off their backsides to join in.

As for gun crime in America being less prevalent in Europe, that's partly because handguns are illegal in most of Europe whereas they are still available over the counter in America where people can legitimately use them to defend their homes. But the UK is catching up - it's about the worst in Europe for knife crime now. But I'd lay money on much of the rash of (evidently) thoughtless crime arising from games. The French are actively now trying to discourage violent games which they openly regard as 'training'.

Of course the media influence people. As Cato points out, millions of corporations spend billions of $ / £ / Y etc using the media precisely for that via advertising. Most people don't even understand the way their minds are being tinkered with.

But...we are going off topic a bit...


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## cato (Dec 2, 2006)

Lisztfreak asks a good question: What do I consider "Western Culture"?

There are slight differences in the common understanding of what is Western Culture. For example, some people do not include Russia and Russian Culture (i.e. music, books, plays, poems, etc.) as part of Western Culture. I disagree with that.

I include Russia as part of Western Culture, even if some do not. (Which I think is a mistake.)

Rather then writing endless paragraphs on the topic, which would be required as to give a proper answer as to what is Western Culture, I just suggest reading 2 books which explain it much better then I can.

First, read the 1973 French novel, _"Le Camp Des Saints"_ (*The Camp of The Saints*) by *Jean Raspail*.

Then, read the new non-fiction book (2006) *"How The West was Lost*" by *Alexander Boot.*

Both books discuss classical music and opera, it's place in Western Culture, what makes up Western Culture, and how it is being slowly torn down.


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## Albert7 (Nov 16, 2014)

Sadly enough no classical music in GTA V .

http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/634491-grand-theft-auto-v/67350581


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## Donata (Dec 28, 2013)

cmb said:


> Um thanks for calling me a mindless moron, a 40+ y/o woman with a masters degree in opera and a programmer by trade. Also note that you lump Joshua Bell (an avid gamer), into that distinction, as well as an assortment of symphony musicians throughout the US.
> Some people are able to play video games and make the distinction that it is just that - a game.


Here, here! I enjoy the Grand Theft Auto series myself. As a woman in her thirties, I resent the idea that video games are for degenerates and mindless morons. As you said, it's just a game.


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