# Desperate...For help!



## ClassicBoy (Mar 11, 2007)

Hi

For my music coursework I have to compose an orchestral piece in rondo form. Does a string quartet plus a piano qualify as an orchestra? (Sorry, I'm crap at music)

I've composed the three sections, but they don't sound right when repeated in the form (ABACA). The 'A' section is in A major, the 'B' section is in E major and the 'C' section is in D major, will this work? Basically, is there any thing that I can do that will make them sound 'right' together?

And I also want to change the end cadences for each 'A' section to give it variety (so that each time the 'A' section is repeated, it'll have a different ending) - could anybody provide information about the repeat marks/symbols I would need to do this?

I've got three weeks to finish this and my music teacher is useless!

Thanks for all your help


----------



## Lisztfreak (Jan 4, 2007)

Isn't a string quartet + piano a piano quintet?


----------



## Mr Salek (Apr 11, 2006)

Pretty much, yeah. I think the least you can get away with is a chamber orchestra. Or just one of each instrument, which I like to call a baby orchstra.


----------



## Kurkikohtaus (Oct 22, 2006)

ClassicBoy said:


> For my music coursework I have to compose an orchestral piece in rondo form. Does a string quartet plus a piano qualify as an orchestra? (*Sorry, I'm crap at music*) ... I've got three weeks to finish this and my music teacher is useless!


This is perhaps the funniest post I've read at this forum so far. How can you compose something if you are "crap at music", as you say? For our entertainment, can you tell us about this course? Is it a university course? Are you a music major? What kind of grounding in theory, especially harmony, do you have?

To show I'm not all bad, here are some quick answers to your questions:

A standard classical orchestra is as follows:


```
2 flutes, 2 oboes, 2 clarinets, 2 bassoons
2 horns, 2 trumpets, tympani
1st violins, 2nd violins, violas, cellos, basses
```

A larger romantic orchestra uses the same, except they have 4 horns, 2 trumpets, 3 trombones and tuba.

As far as the keys of your sections are concerned, you've used I, V and IV respectively for A, B and C, which is good. If you want a little variety in that scheme, use F major for the C section, which is the Neapolitan of the Dominant in your basic key of A major. This will make for an interesting return to A major at the end of the piece.


----------



## Amy (Aug 3, 2006)

Have you maybe thought about using a harpsichord instead of a piano? That way you could write for a small baroque chamber orchestra and the blend might be more appropriate. I think the mixture of keys sounds interesting and unusual, and if that's the sound you're after I'd say go for it! However, if you want a more conventional form, it might be useful to write the B section in the A sections relative minor- which in this case is F minor. If the keys are more closely related, it is often easier to modulate from one to another and 'fits' in a more orthodox way. However, you just need to look at Beethoven's 8th to know that seemingly 'random' key changes can be awesome!


----------



## Amy (Aug 3, 2006)

Oh, and you will probably best with putting the cadances in seperate bars, which are labelled one and two, and then place a repeat sign on the final bar before either cadance. That way, the first time it is played it will end with the first cadance and the second time with the second etc.


----------



## Mr Salek (Apr 11, 2006)

Coursework usually points towards a GCSE exam meaning 15-16 years of age. I'm doing mine now.


----------



## Frasier (Mar 10, 2007)

You could write for a string quartet but "convert" it to a string ochestra by adding double bass (don't have it doubling the cellos throughout, just the bits where you really need a deep bass). You could also add a flute, oboe and clarinet (or other winds), and a piano if you like. With a small orchestra, don't overdo the percussion if you have any at all!

With a couple of woodwinds you can get some nice antiphonal effects, like a phrase on the strings with an answer in the winds. 

About keys, it depends on how strict your brief is. You could bring an A section back in a different key if you wanted to. It wouldn't worry me but it might, your teachers. Transpose it but try to add some variety - like if the exposition has the melody in the violins, give it to the cellos.

No matter about whether you think you're crap at music. You probably aren't. We all had to start somewhere. And the great thing about crap....it helps things grow. 

Finally, I'm surprised that you haven't or can't ask your teacher what constitutes a suitable orchestra for the coursework.

Good luck with it.
Eddy.


----------



## ClassicBoy (Mar 11, 2007)

Thanks for all your replies

Erm, I'm doing GCSE music. I've passed my grade 5 theory and I was studying for the grade 6, but I am still crap at composing. 

I'm not that entertaining! Some people in my music group can't even read notated music and have no idea what harmony is. It's funny how our teacher expects us all to know how to compose.

I've transposed my C section into F major, but it sounds weird so I think I'll just leave it - thanks anyway!

Sorry, I hate the sound of harpsichords! I decided earlier that a Classical piece would probably be the easiest for me because:

Pre-Baroque - Not covered in the syllabus...
Baroque - Too many tunes to make up and I don't think the piano was invented then
Romantic - I'll probably lose marks if I don't use a very large orchestra and I can't be bothered to add all the articulations and make the music feel 'emotional'
20th century - Too complicated!

I know that Classical music entails balanced phrases, fairly limited dynamics and is usually chordal. That's basically it . Could anyone give me more characteristics of Classical music, please?? 

Does anyone know any good chord progressions? I've used the progressions of 5ths - is this typical of the Classical period? 

I've listened to your advice and I've added an oboe to my 'orchestra'. 
My brief states that the composition should "show a consistent use of tonality". Does this mean I shouldn't transpose the key in each section? I have anyway...

The reason why I haven't asked my teacher is because we started this coursework a few months ago. With about two weeks left, I don't think she'll be very happy if I started asking basic questions. (No one in my group is close to finishing).

Finally, is there a formula for a good introduction and coda?

If anyone's interested (which you probably aren't), I could upload a section of my composition for you to hear.

Thanks again!


----------



## Lisztfreak (Jan 4, 2007)

I am very interested!


----------



## Frasier (Mar 10, 2007)

You know, some of your comments make me quite sad. I was one of the very last to take the old GCE music which was about 2-part and 4-part harmony, form and a few other things you encounter in the AB Grade 5 theory - in fact GCE music was an exemption from AB grade 5 if you wanted to do a higher grade practical. 

Sadly those days are over and I can't believe what I hear about current GCSE music students - can't read or write music but are expected to compose on conventional music-paper or its computer equiv. I mean, how can you expect to create if you don't have the tools? The whole current syllabus is daft (and at least Edexcel have scrapped their A levels)

There must be a few like you who would LOVE to get on with music but held back by people who probably saw music as a good skive. People who will never learn anything musical.

Answering your question about the characteristics of classical music is difficult because it's a big subject - huge text books have been written - and covers a time span over 400 years if you include the renaissance (you're unlikely to need to know much about that at this time)!

Anyway, you have all the basic characteristics in your grade 5 theory. The Classical era depends on keys and scales. Harmony is derived from scales. Each step of a scale is used to build "triads" by adding the third and fifth to the root note. From this you get progressions. You probably know about cadences.

For composing, how are you at writing melodies? For the time being, stick to the major. Once you're okay with the major, try another mode. 

Write your melody in chunks of 2 or 4 bars. For something 8 bars long, try to do an imperfect cadence in bar 4 and a perfect or plagal one in bar 8. The cadence should be implied in your melody but you can harmonise it later.

Are you happy about cadences?

To harmonise something, write out the scale that your melody is in. Turn it into triads by adding the 3rds and 5ths. Number all the steps/triads using roman numbers - I II III IV etc etc. Concentrate on just using chords I II IV V and VI at this stage.

Look at your melody and choose a suitable triad to use under each beat or two beats or whatever, then arrange the notes of the triad to produce good sounding harmony. (It isn't simple as this - there are rules but you have to start somewhere.)

To write for strings (in (basically) 4 parts), it's best to learn 4-part harmony (as in AB grade 6), hoping you have time for that. It doesn't mean you need all instruments playing all the time - accompaniment is another but related issue. Would your teacher be able to help yout?


----------

