# Is Spain least musically talented nation of Europe?



## Perotin

How come, there are so few good composers in spanish history? When I think of Spain, only a handful of minor composers comes to my mind, say, Tomás Luis de Victoria, Enrique Granados, Isaac Albéniz, Manuel de Falla. In comparison to other big european nations, like Russia, Germany, France, Italy, this is a really modest contribution to world classical music. Why is that so? Did politics, religion, poor economy or cultural isolation hinder the developement of music? What is your opinion on that?


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## mitchflorida

Other than Spanish Guitar, Spain has contributed little to Classical Music. They are right up there with the Arabic countries.


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## Chrythes

Wow, then I guess the music of even less known countries like Lithuania, Latvia, Armenia, Belarus etc. is essentially meaningless to you?


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## mitchflorida

Not sure what you mean. Who mentioned Lithuania, which is tiny compared to Spain and Portugal. I do love Spanish Guitar, to be honest.


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## superhorn

Spain has produced more composers than most music lovers realize, but they are not very well known outside of Spain . However, many works by Spanish composers such as Roberto Gerhard (actually a Catalan ),
Juan Crisostomo Arriaga, a short-lived prodigy called the "Spanish Mozart " ,Tomas Breton and others have been recorded and can be heard on labels such as Naxos etc. 
Not to mention the rich tradition of early music with church composers such as Victoria etc . 
Roberto Gerhard (pronounced Gerard as in Gerard Schwarz) is an interesting composer, and was the first
Spanish composer to adopt Schoenberg's 12-tone techniques , and actually studied with Schoenberg .
But he turned the Schoenbergian idiom into a distinctive style of his own . 
He wrote several symphonies, ballet scores and a variety of other works . I first got to know hear some of his music long ago from an EMI LP with the late Antal Dorati conducting . I don't believe this has been reissued on CD, but there are other recordings of his music .


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## tgtr0660

I'm not sure why, under those terms, Spain would rank lower than Greece, Sarajevo, Portugal, and many many more. 

Also, it's about quality. Italy produced million composers but not all of them are Verdi. Spain's De Falla is a towering figure. 

But yes, compared to the Germanic nations, England, France, and even Hungary, Spain ranks lower. I haven't dug into that too deeply. I guess popular music got too strong of a hold in Spanish history. Also, I guess their nobility was not as music-minded as that in the Germanic nations. There are too many possible reasons.


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## Aecio

Maybe it's related to the weather. Spain is a sunny country with a very intense light and it has produced lots of good painters. People live outside and socialize a lot. Germany and Russia are much colder, with less light and not many first-rate painters. And there is another funny caracteristic of spanish music : it's generally short. No big symphonies, concertos or string quartets but many short charming pieces for piano or guitar...
If you follow my way of reasoning and you look at France, which is geographically between Germany and Spain you will see that french have better musicians than Spain and better painters than Germany. And even if there are some good french symphonies (Saint-Saens, Berlioz...) or orchestral pieces ( Debussy, Ravel) the french musicians are specially good on short piano images and somewhat "sunny" Chamber music (Faure, Ravel...)


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## Mahlerian

Aecio said:


> If you follow my way of reasoning and you look at France, which is geographically between Germany and Spain you will see that french have better musicians than Spain and better painters than Germany. And even if there are some good french symphonies (Saint-Saens, Berlioz...) or orchestral pieces ( Debussy, Ravel) the french musicians are specially good on short piano images and somewhat "sunny" Chamber music (Faure, Ravel...)


What about Messiaen? His orchestral and organ works are extremely important to the 20th century repertoire.

Debussy, also, could do a lot more than just "short piano images". In addition to the orchestral works everybody knows, he also wrote one of the great early modernist operas and a good number of excellent songs. His chamber music is worthwhile as well.


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## joen_cph

Spain has produced more composers of some international reputation - 18-19th century composers like Soler, Sor and (imported) Boccherini; the 19th-20th century saw Turina, Sorozobal, Espla, Tarrega, Rodrigo, Montsalvatge, Mompou, Surinach & others too; contemporaries include Xavier Benguerel, Luis de Pablo, Julian Orbon and Leonardo Balada.

Also, not at least the 13th - 16th century had a very rich Spanish musical culture, among the most important in Europe, corresponding to its political role.

I´m not into the details, but apparently the Franco dictatorship years, spanning many decades of the 20th century, implied some conservative and isolationist tendencies in the cultural policy of the country. The often folklore-inspired language of much of the Spanish music since Pedrell might have prevented its influence a bit too.



> If you follow my way of reasoning and you look at France ... you will see that french have .... better painters than Germany


I guess about 1% of art historians nowadays would agree on that thesis. But more would have agreed around 1950.


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## aleazk

Aecio said:


> Maybe it's related to the weather. Spain is a sunny country with a very intense light and it has produced lots of good painters. People live outside and socialize a lot. Germany and Russia are much colder, with less light and not many first-rate painters. And there is another funny caracteristic of spanish music : it's generally short. No big symphonies, concertos or string quartets but many short charming pieces for piano or guitar...
> If you follow my way of reasoning and you look at France, which is geographically between Germany and Spain you will see that french have better musicians than Spain and better painters than Germany. And even if there are some good french symphonies (Saint-Saens, Berlioz...) or orchestral pieces ( Debussy, Ravel) the french musicians are specially good on short piano images and somewhat "sunny" Chamber music (Faure, Ravel...)


It is an interesting point. Certainly, Spain has got one of the most important traditions in the visual arts, the only comparison would be with Italy or France, I think. Velázquez, Goya, Picasso, Dalí, etc. Those guys are like the Bachs, Beethovens, etc., of Spain.
Roberto Gerhard is a first rate composer to me:






Joaquín Turina is also a very fine composer:






(Bad taste joke: Gaddafi is back!, now he's a violinist! )


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## mitchflorida

Yes, I never thought about it before. But Greece is a big zero when it comes to Classical Music.


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## joen_cph

*Greece *was Turkish/Ottoman well into the 19th Century, and its economy developed very slowly in the 20th Century. But it has some 20th Century composers, including the undisputedly important Skalkottas, and, on top of my head, Kalomiris, Sicilianos, Konstantinidis a well as the socialist icon Theodorakis who also writes classical orchestral music (symphonies, ballets)

edit: + Xenakis, of course.


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## mitchflorida

"Enrique Granados, Isaac Albéniz, Manuel de Falla" are pretty distinguished names. better than Norway for instance.

Who is de Victoria? He isn't an important personage in classical music, not from what I have hear.


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## mitchflorida

Of course, every country has some good composers, including Greece. You could say the same thing about Rhode Island, Maryland, and Utah.


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## elgar's ghost

For a country that is supposed not to have produced many great composers taking into account the size, history and population of the place there have been many non-Spaniards who have composed works with a Spanish flavour and/or using texts by the likes of Lorca. Perhaps Spain was a special case as so many of her composers concentrated on the indigenous zarzuela rather than the usual genres in an attempt to dissipate prevailing French and Italian influences and this may have contrived to largely isolate the nation from becoming part of the European classical 'family' - zarzuelas were never really popular outside Spain and some of her ex-colonies, and I'm not sure if there was any conscious attempt to make them so.


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## Guest

Let's not forget Cristobal Halffter.


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## moody

mitchflorida said:


> Yes, I never thought about it before. But Greece is a big zero when it comes to Classical Music.


That's probably because like Arabic Countries and Japan the music system they use is completely different.
I'm sure that one of our musicians can explain this properly.


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## BurningDesire

Just because its less famous doesn't mean its less good. Many composers are raised to god-like status, and certain ways of writing or thinking about music are held as superior to others, but that doesn't make it truth. There is a ton of fantastic music from Spain, which is interestingly heavily influenced by Arabic music. Obscurity doesn't mean bad, popularity doesn't mean good.

If you'd like to hear some awesome Spanish composers, I recommend Granados, Barrios, Taurega, Rodrigo. They're pretty magnificent ^_^


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## KenOC

Kontrapunctus said:


> Let's not forget Cristobal Halffter.


Or his uncle, Ernesto Halffter. His Sinfonietta is great!

Arriaga has been mentioned. I suspect he would have been the greatest Spanish composer of the last couple of hundred years if he hadn't been so thoughtless as to die young.  His string quartets are available on NML or Spotify -- written at 18!


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## joen_cph

_Rodolfo_ was another Halffter. One almost gets Half-confused. But Rodolfo worked in Latin-America too, and Cristobal usually wrote in the most modern style among the three.


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## palJacky

<<For a country that is supposed not to have produced many great composers taking into account the size, history and population of the place there have been many non-Spaniards who have composed works with a Spanish flavour and/or using texts by the likes of Lorca. >>

I think this is actually part of the conundrum. Everyone knows what a Spanish work 'sounds like" but more often than not when we hear one, it was composed by a non Spaniard.


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## Flamme

Perotin said:


> How come, there are so few good composers in spanish history? When I think of Spain, only a handful of minor composers comes to my mind, say, Tomás Luis de Victoria, Enrique Granados, Isaac Albéniz, Manuel de Falla. In comparison to other big european nations, like Russia, Germany, France, Italy, this is a really modest contribution to world classical music. Why is that so? Did politics, religion, poor economy or cultural isolation hinder the developement of music? What is your opinion on that?


Well i think they are talented for non classical musical styles like flamenco or something also they have very good classical guitar players probably the best in the world...They didnt have the poor economy for centuries, on the contrary, mostly cause of the gold and other precious metals they imported from across the sea...


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## moody

Flamme said:


> Well i think they are talented for non classical musical styles like flamenco or something also they have very good classical guitar players probably the best in the world...They didnt have the poor economy for centuries, on the contrary, mostly cause of the gold and other precious metals they imported from across the sea...


Nobody has mentioned the musical artists,Victoris de los Angeles ,Domingo,etc. many pianists and conductors.


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## violadude

mitchflorida said:


> Other than Spanish Guitar, Spain has contributed little to Classical Music. They are right up there with the Arabic countries.


Why has Italy contributed so little to the Spanish Flamenco tradition? Are they the least talented country in Europe?

Why has Germany contributed so little to the Arabic musical tradition? They must be the least talented nation in the world.


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## clavichorder

Aside from what others have been saying about the culture of the classical composing tradition, not being of as much interest to a lot of mediterranean cultures save Italy, Spain suffers from a similar fate to England. And I'll explain why. 

The Spanish composers of the Renaissance(the forever impossible word to spell without looking up) were no joke. Though not so many big names will stick out, there are some like De Cabezon and a fairly healthy list around him. There was some good stuff happening in the much later classical/baroque time of Soler. By the fully fledged classical era though, the Spanish just couldn't keep up anymore. Same thing happened to the English. 20th century and late Romantic salon piano music saw a bit of a Renaissance.


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## ArtMusic

Spain had/has many, many composers surely most of these names are talented. 

*Renaissance*
Juan de Anchieta (1462-1523) 
Cristóbal de Morales (1500-1553) 
Luis de Milán (c. 1500-1561) 
Miguel de Fuenllana (1500-1579) 
Antonio de Cabezón (1510-1566) 
Diego Ortiz (1510-1570) 
Alonso Mudarra (1510-1580) 
Tomás Luis de Victoria (1548-1611)

* Baroque*
Joan Pau Pujol (1570-1626) 
Carlos Patiño (1600-1675) 
Urbán de Vargas (1606-1656) 
Pablo Bruna (1611-1679) 
Juan Hidalgo de Polanco (1614-1685) 
Joan Cererols (1618-1680) 
José Marín (1619-1699) 
Cristóbal Galán (1630-1684) 
Miguel de Irízar (1635-1684) 
Gaspar Sanz (1640-1710) 
Juan Bautista José Cabanilles (1644-1712) 
Tomás de Torrejón y Velasco (1644-1728) 
Juan de Araujo (1646-1712) 
Francisco Guerau (1649-1717/1722) 
José de Torres y Martínez Bravo (1665-1738) 
Antonio de Literes (1673-1747) 
Santiago de Murcia (1673-1739)

*Classical era*
Joan Baptista Pla (1720-1773) 
Antonio Soler (1729-1783)

*Romantic*
Fernando Sor (1778-1839) 
Ramón Carnicer (1789-1855) 
Juan Crisóstomo Arriaga (1806-1826) 
Emilio Arrieta (1821-1894) 
Jaime Nunó (1824-1908) 
Felip Pedrell (1841-1922) 
Pablo de Sarasate (1844-1908) 
Federico Chueca (1846-1908) 
Joaquín Valverde Durán (1846-1910) 
Tomás Bretón (1850-1923) 
Ruperto Chapí (1851-1909) 
Francisco Tárrega (1852-1909) 
Isaac Albéniz (1860-1909) 
Enrique Granados (1867-1916)

* Modern/Contemporary*
Amadeo Vives (1871-1932) 
Eduardo Torres (1872 - 1934) 
Pascual Marquina Narro (1873-1948) 
Joaquín "Quinito" Valverde Sanjuán (1875-1918) 
Manuel de Falla (1876-1946) 
Ramón Montoya (1880-1949) 
Joaquín Turina (1882-1949) 
Jesús Guridi (1886-1961) 
José María Usandizaga (1887-1915) 
Federico Moreno Torroba (1891-1982) 
Federico Mompou (1893-1987) 
Roberto Gerhard (1896-1970) 
Fernando Obradors (1897-1945) 
Pablo Sorozábal (1897-1988) 
Ricard Lamote de Grignon (1899-1965) 
Rodolfo Halffter (1900-1987) 
Joaquín Rodrigo (1901-1999) 
Niño Ricardo (1904-1972) 
Ernesto Halffter (1905-1989) 
Joaquin Homs (1906-2006) 
Sabicas (1912-1990) 
Xavier Montsalvatge (1912-2002) 
Manuel Valls (1920-1984) 
Josep Mestres Quadreny (born 1929) 
Cristóbal Halffter (born 1930) 
Luis de Pablo (born 1930) 
Leonardo Balada (born 1933) 
Antón García Abril (born 1933) 
Antonio Ruiz-Pipò (1934-1997) 
Gonzalo de Olavide (1934-2005) 
Fernando Arbex (1941-2003) 
Tomás Marco (born 1942) 
Manolo Sanlúcar (born 1945) 
Camilo Sesto (born 1946) 
Pablo Herrera 
Juan Pardo 
Paco de Lucía (born 1947) 
Pedro Vilarroig (born 1954) 
Alberto Iglesias (born 1955) 
David del Puerto (born 1964) 
Juan J. Colomer (born 1966) 
Vicente Amigo (born 1967) 
Ramon Lazkano (born 1968) 
José María Sánchez-Verdú (born 1968) 
Alejandro Sanz (born 1968) 
Manuel Alejandro (born 1969) 
Gabriel Erkoreka (born 1969)


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## Flamme

tgtr0660 said:


> I'm not sure why, under those terms, Spain would rank lower than Greece, *Sarajevo*, Portugal, and many many more.
> 
> Also, it's about quality. Italy produced million composers but not all of them are Verdi. Spain's De Falla is a towering figure.
> 
> But yes, compared to the Germanic nations, England, France, and even Hungary, Spain ranks lower. I haven't dug into that too deeply. I guess popular music got too strong of a hold in Spanish history. Also, I guess their nobility was not as music-minded as that in the Germanic nations. There are too many possible reasons.


Sarajevo is a City...In Bosnia lol


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## Sid James

Aecio said:


> Maybe it's related to the weather. Spain is a sunny country with a very intense light and it has produced lots of good painters. People live outside and socialize a lot. Germany and Russia are much colder, with less light and not many first-rate painters. And there is another funny caracteristic of spanish music : it's generally short. No big symphonies, concertos or string quartets but many short charming pieces for piano or guitar.....)


I think there being a sunny climate is a good point. Same with Australia. Australians love the outdoors, basically because of the climate and our wide open spaces. Maybe being a country surrounded by water is an aspect of it too.

With Spain, politics/history can be an issue too. You got quite repressive things there in the past, such as the Spanish Inquisition. You also got a relationship between church and state (the monarchy) in the past that was similar to that in Russia. Don't forget that even Russia, classical music basically got going there big time in the 19th century, pretty late in the piece compared to Western Europe. Maybe Spain's situation feeds into this.

I think that flamenco is Spain's greatest contribution to music though, and of course much of their classical music feeds off that, as well as folk music that is not flamenco/gypsy. Also the musical legacy of the Moors, who colonised Spain for a long period, their culture having an impact (eg. not only their music but various buildings they left behind - eg. the Alahambra).

Of composers not mentions, I like Carlos Surinach. I got one of his string quartets and also his piano concerto (there's an Eloquence label cd of Alicia de Laroccha playing his and some other Spanish concertos). He was taught by Richard Strauss so was kind of comfortable in these kinds of larger/traditional "canonic" genres/forms, but his style is more modern than Strauss. He incorporates flamenco a bit like Bartok did Hungarian and other folk musics of South East Europe.

& I think that politics in the 20th century may be a factor too for Spain's lack of prominence in terms of classical musics. Surinach went into exile due to the Franco regime. So did de Falla (even though Franco offered him a plum job as director of music for something, de Falla ended up voting with his feet and leaving, I think he died in Argentina). Gerhard left as well due to the dictatorship, which only ended with Franco's death in the 1970's.

I think though as people have pointed out, "big names" like de Victoria, Granados, Albeniz, de Falla, Rodrigo all having works that are firmly in the core repertoire of their respective genres/eras.


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## Flamme

Aecio said:


> Maybe it's related to the weather. Spain is a sunny country with a very intense light and it has produced lots of good painters. People live outside and socialize a lot. Germany and Russia are much colder, with less light and not many first-rate painters. And there is another funny caracteristic of spanish music : it's generally short. No big symphonies, concertos or string quartets but many short charming pieces for piano or guitar...
> If you follow my way of reasoning and you look at France, which is geographically between Germany and Spain you will see that french have better musicians than Spain and better painters than Germany. And even if there are some good french symphonies (Saint-Saens, Berlioz...) or orchestral pieces ( Debussy, Ravel) the french musicians are specially good on short piano images and somewhat "sunny" Chamber music (Faure, Ravel...)


Yes national and tribal characteristics must be taken into consideration...Slavs are special Germans too Anglo saxons Latins,where Italians Frenchmen and Spaniards fall into...


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## PetrB

mitchflorida said:


> Yes, I never thought about it before. But Greece is a big zero when it comes to Classical Music.


Dimitris Mitropoulos / Nikos Skalkottas / Iannis Xenakis

As to the OP: Everyone knows that the British are about as good with music as they are with food.


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## ArtMusic

BurningDesire said:


> Just because its less famous doesn't mean its less good. Many composers are raised to god-like status, and certain ways of writing or thinking about music are held as superior to others, but that doesn't make it truth. There is a ton of fantastic music from Spain, which is interestingly heavily influenced by Arabic music. Obscurity doesn't mean bad, popularity doesn't mean good.
> 
> If you'd like to hear some awesome Spanish composers, I recommend Granados, Barrios, Taurega, Rodrigo. They're pretty magnificent ^_^


That was like what I was thinking. Why single out Spain? It has a very, very rich history and very strong in the visual arts. I would think there might be other countries in Europe that this question could be asked as well, certainly before considering Spain.


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## elgar's ghost

ArtMusic said:


> That was like what I was thinking. Why single out Spain? It has a very, very rich history and very strong in the visual arts. I would think there might be other countries in Europe that this question could be asked as well, certainly before considering Spain.


Let's make no bones about it - the UK didn't have a great deal to shout about on the CM composer front for most of the 18th and 19th centuries - the country's strengths, cultural and otherwise, were found elsewhere.


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## KRoad

Many posters fail to appreciate that what they understand as classical music, is really a rather narrow conception of _western_ classical music. For economic and political reasons classical music in Spain took a different direction fairly early on in its development of a literate musical tradition. There is indeed a substantial body of Spanish classical music; one that embraces and reflects both the influence of its many colonies in South America and that of the North African Moors. A different "flavour" of music perhaps, but classical in the broad sense of the word nonetheless. To suggest that Spain is the least talented nation of Europe is at best clumsy - at worst ignorant.


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## mitchflorida

PetrB said:


> Dimitris Mitropoulos / Nikos Skalkottas / Iannis Xenakis


The only one I am familiar with is the first, and he was as much an American as a Greek.


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## joen_cph

For Mitropoulos:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dimitri_Mitropoulos


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## Huilunsoittaja

Besides politics, there's also the issue of patronage. In the renaissance and baroque eras, many historians would admit that Spain's upper class didn't put in a lot of money into patronizing artists, particularly musicians, because they were quite focused on their colonization aspirations across the globe. It's not so much about how rich they were, Spain was extremely rich at that time, but what kind of priorities the country's leaders had. It happened in England too, that in the great years of searching and conquest, the least amount of money was put into the arts, money being reserved elsewhere.

Also, the education of music. Spain started making conservatories rather late in the game like the US, and its oldest one in Madrid didn't gain stability of location for many decades. Thus, there are few of them, and very small. Education is one of the key factors in raising great artists, because that's where they get their foothold and mentoring. Because of Spain's weak history of music patronage, it's likely that the conservatories have had trouble gaining patronage too. In sheer number of conservatories and number of students in each, Spain is dwarfed by the big names of Europe: Italy, France, Austria and Germany.


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## Ukko

Spain was already going broke during the Baroque period. Lots of income, but more outgo.


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## KenOC

Huilunsoittaja said:


> In sheer number of conservatories and number of students in each, Spain is dwarfed by the big names of Europe: Italy, France, Austria and Germany.


I think this is true. For example, Arriaga left Spain for France to study under the reactionary François-Joseph Fétis at the Paris Conservatoire, where he became Fétis's teaching assistant. Of course Arriaga was pretty reactionary himself, though hugely talented.


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## Ramako

It produced Victoria, what more can we ask?


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## ArtMusic

Huilunsoittaja said:


> Besides politics, there's also the issue of patronage. In the renaissance and baroque eras, many historians would admit that Spain's upper class didn't put in a lot of money into patronizing artists, particularly musicians, because they were quite focused on their colonization aspirations across the globe. It's not so much about how rich they were, Spain was extremely rich at that time, but what kind of priorities the country's leaders had. It happened in England too, that in the great years of searching and conquest, the least amount of money was put into the arts, money being reserved elsewhere.
> 
> Also, the education of music. Spain started making conservatories rather late in the game like the US, and its oldest one in Madrid didn't gain stability of location for many decades. Thus, there are few of them, and very small. Education is one of the key factors in raising great artists, because that's where they get their foothold and mentoring. Because of Spain's weak history of music patronage, it's likely that the conservatories have had trouble gaining patronage too. In sheer number of conservatories and number of students in each, Spain is dwarfed by the big names of Europe: Italy, France, Austria and Germany.


Diego Velázquez was Spanish, probably one of the greatest portrait artists of all times.

Baroqu Spain also developed the Zarzuela, SPanish opera if you like.


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## Arsakes

I don't know if its related to two matters:
1) Their obsession of Guitar
2) Their defeat from England and Netherlands in Early Baroque era (of music)


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## BurningDesire

This thread is made of derp.


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## Flamme

Herp derp life is great...


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## Head_case

elgars ghost said:


> Let's make no bones about it - the UK didn't have a great deal to shout about on the CM composer front for most of the 18th and 19th centuries - the country's strengths, cultural and otherwise, were found elsewhere.


Maybe Handel and Purcell's music was that good, there was no need :lol:

My guess is that the relative peace that England experienced in these centuries (compared to before), led to concentrate on merchantile enterprises and with the advent of the industrial revolution and the French enlightenment's influence, it sold out :/

Why does Salzedo get little airwave?

The calibre of his chamber music is really impressive.










And of course - his string quartets on the excellent Dutton label:










Great CD. I love Salzedo's harp music - although hardly cutting edge, it's very much the kind of languid music you could listen all day to - click on the links below to listen:

http://www.harpcenter.com/product/kondonassis-salzedos-harp-cd/sale-harp-cds

There aren't that many composers who write for the harp on such an intimate level. Salzedo himself played the harp and devoted compositions for it (rather than harp transcriptions as we've seen of late).

http://www.vanderbiltmusic.com/product/AC313.html

He certainly ranks up there with Martinu; Martin; Borodova's harp oeuvres. I'm not so interested in the Handel, Mozart, Dussek era of the harp so it's fantastic to discover it in the 20th century. A bit like discovering Wanda Landowska on the harpsichord .... such a revelation.


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## moody

PetrB said:


> Dimitris Mitropoulos / Nikos Skalkottas / Iannis Xenakis
> 
> As to the OP: Everyone knows that the British are about as good with music as they are with food.


I would imagine it must be a long time since you visited here.
The biggest abomination foodwise is MacDonalds,guess where that comes from!
Is the OP British then ?


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## SiegendesLicht

PetrB said:


> As to the OP: Everyone knows that the British are about as good with music as they are with food.


They make up for it in the field of literature more than sufficiently though.


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## Xaltotun

The Spanish have always charted their own waters in culture... they almost bypassed the Renaissance and went straight from the Middle Ages to Baroque... and then from Baroque to Romanticism, bypassing the Enlightenment... I am drawn to Spanish culture for this very reason, that they skipped the periods of "reason" and embraced the periods of "emotion/faith".


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## Sid James

Huilunsoittaja said:


> Besides politics, there's also the issue of patronage. In the renaissance and baroque eras, many historians would admit that Spain's upper class didn't put in a lot of money into patronizing artists, particularly musicians, because they were quite focused on their colonization aspirations across the globe. It's not so much about how rich they were, Spain was extremely rich at that time, but what kind of priorities the country's leaders had. It happened in England too, that in the great years of searching and conquest, the least amount of money was put into the arts, money being reserved elsewhere.
> 
> Also, the education of music. Spain started making conservatories rather late in the game like the US, and its oldest one in Madrid didn't gain stability of location for many decades. Thus, there are few of them, and very small. Education is one of the key factors in raising great artists, because that's where they get their foothold and mentoring. Because of Spain's weak history of music patronage, it's likely that the conservatories have had trouble gaining patronage too. In sheer number of conservatories and number of students in each, Spain is dwarfed by the big names of Europe: Italy, France, Austria and Germany.


I think that's a good point, in terms of some things I know. Eg. Boccherini was employed throughout most of his life in Spain by the aristocracy. So was Scarlatti, I think. Boccherini died in poverty just as Beethoven was rising in Vienna, with new music that had nothing much to do with with courtly dances and was moving strongly away from music more for entertainment.

& I cannot imagine someone like Beethoven surviving, let alone thriving as he did, in a place like Spain in the 19th century. To my knowledge, it was a very conservative place. Even though the Enlightenment had little affect on the whole of Europe in the 19th century, I'd imagine that in Spain, it probably even had much less affect than that. Maybe it was not even known as a theory as it was in Vienna and other places.

It's also significant that when Spanish composers came to prominence at the turn of the 2oth century and after - eg. Granados, Albeniz, Rodrigo, de Falla - they drew on tradition more than anything else, and revivified it. On both folk tradition, the courtly dances/forms, and also flamenco. So you don't have things like what was going on at the time like in Vienna - eg. that kind of radical experimentation like Schoenberg & others. Again, that kind of thing was highly unlikely to happen or be relevant in a country like Spain.

But if you think Spain has less prominent classical composers than many other European countries, look at Portugal. Its main artfrom is fado, which I think developed in the cities and towns. I don't have comprehensive knowledge of it, but I do have some recordings, one of the most famous singers of that genre was the legendary Amalia Rodrigues. But its survived to this day, I have a cd of recent Portuguese singers singing Fado (Rodriguez was around mid 20th century). I can't explain what its like, you'd have to hear it. There's plenty of Amalia's stuff on youtube for a start.

By contrast to Spain, Portugal has to my knowledge produced no classical composers of international repute. People can correct me if they want. I don't think Spain is that badly off in terms of having classical composers that are known worldwide, maybe its just a matter (as people have said) that history and culture have made classical music pan out wildly differently to other places. & what of their geographic distance from places like Vienna - even early in the 20th century, composers had to physically travel to other places to access scores by other composers. I know Orff did this, went to Venice in order to study the scores of Monteverdi etc. There are many issues like this here.

But I like Spanish music as it is. Its got its own strenghts and uniqueness. I myself have only scratched the surface there. There are many 'non warhorse' things available now on cd, and some of these are being peformed all around the world. Eg. in chamber recitals here, things like Granados' piano trio and things by Rodrigo are getting performed. I mean, we've got enough piano trios by the Viennese guys (old and new), so its not a crowded market with the Spanish, most things like this by them will be new and refreshing to many listeners. They didn't only do things like the Concierto de Aranjuez, so I think the issue may be that many people don't know some of the other stuff these guys did?


----------



## Prodromides

Sid James said:


> By contrast to Spain, Portugal has to my knowledge produced no classical composers of international repute. People can correct me if they want.


Hi, Sid.

There's one Portuguese composer whose music I have on some albums, such as the Montaigne label ...










... and Accord.










Only a few days ago have I learned that Emmanuel Nunes had passed away in 2012.


----------



## KenOC

Joly Braga Santos is a Potruguese composer who is quite popular with some, although I don't know his music well.


----------



## science

joen_cph said:


> *Greece *was Turkish/Ottoman well into the 19th Century, and its economy developed very slowly in the 20th Century. But it has some 20th Century composers, including the undisputedly important Skalkottas, and, on top of my head, Kalomiris, Sicilianos, Konstantinidis a well as the socialist icon Theodorakis who also writes classical orchestral music (symphonies, ballets)
> 
> edit: + Xenakis, of course.


And Hadjidakis!

Dude will have his day....


----------



## joen_cph

To my knowledge the most acclaimed Portuguese composers are 20th-century Braga Santos, Lopes-Graca and Nunes, plus 19th-century Bomtempo. They also had a good deal of Renaissance composers, corresponding to a period of political power and influence. Wikipedia lists quite a lot, but the number is not overwhelming.


----------



## Perotin

Maybe it is that Spain made a transition from feudal to bourgeois society relatively late. Beurgeoisie is needed for musical institutions to be formed such as philharmonic societies, concert halls, conservatories, operas. With public schools and bourgeois upbringing, which put a strong emphasis on music, a lot of people got access to musical education. Like in a country with high rate of illiteracy one cannot expect a lot of great writers to crop up, the same is with music. But interestingly enough, latin America also didn't produce a lot of good composers, so there must be something in their culture, that prevents classical music to prosper.


----------



## Art Rock

My favourite Portugese composer is Luis de Freitas Branco - I have enjoyed everything I have heard of him (about 6 CD's).

Latin America has had plenty of good composers: Villa-Lobos, Ginastera, Piazzolla, Chavez, Revueltas, Golijov, Barrios, Brouwer....


----------



## Zauberberg

I discovered Gerhard's music thanks to this thread and he kicks some asses. Pretty music (and yes, pretty and atonal!)


----------



## Wandering

Zauberberg?

Are you a fan of Thomas Mann?


----------



## Zauberberg

I've read the novel but no, the nickname has its origin from an album by an electronic artist (Wolfgang Voigt aka Gas). But I do share some attraction to magic, mountains and german culture  I just like the word a lot.


----------



## Sid James

Re Portugal, Joly Braga Santos sounds like a name I've heard before, but I think its fair to say that he is not as well known worldwide as the likes of Rodrigo, Albeniz, de Falla, etc. (well, their 'warhorse' works). 

BTW, I was just listening to that cd I've got of fado music, as doing that post jogged my memory, and it was a good listen. I read in the cd notes that fado has origins in Portuguese folk music, also Greek, Arabic, African and Brazilian influences. But it grew in the cities of Portugal with the rise of the bourgeois there, and indeed the aristocratic elites despised it for being too lowbrow. So I think the divisions between middle and upper classes where more marked in Portugal & SPain than in the rest of Europe. They lagged behind in transition away from feudal attitudes to more modern ones, as someone said above. & this would have affected musical production and consumption there. As I said, I can't imagine the likes of Beethoven or Schoenberg emerging in these countries. They had a different history from the rest of Europe, esp. from Western Europe.


----------



## Crudblud

PetrB said:


> As to the OP: Everyone knows that the British are about as good with music as they are with food.


I could not keep a straight face while reading that.


----------



## farmerjohn

Spain have the world's greatest soccer team, which is what counts.


----------



## Glsbnewt

Seriously!?
Albeniz's Iberia is in my opinion the greatest piano suite ever composed. It employs dissonance masterfully and in a way which enhances the melody, it creates a rich impressionist tapestry, is one of the most complex pieces for solo piano, has beautiful melodies, and creates vivid images of Spain. Goyescas by Granados is also quite good, especially in the way the suite is tied together by common thematic elements. It is certainly true that these composers were not as prolific as some of the other composers from their time, but what they lack in quantity they certainly more than make up for in quality.

And everyone would agree that Spain has the richest music for classical guitar. Furthermore, I don't think we can ignore flamenco if we are judging the musical talent of the nation. In flamenco there has been a wonderful blending of Arabic influences with Western classical music. Also, flamenco features some impressive guitar work and rhythmic complexity that is unrivaled by any other branch of classical music. I would also add that it is some of the most emotional music in the world.


----------



## LordBlackudder

if ur talking classical than they probably are few. but not the lowest out there.


----------



## EddieRUKiddingVarese

Kay!


----------



## BurningDesire

farmerjohn said:


> Spain have the world's greatest soccer team, which is what counts.


Nopony cares about soccer o3o


----------



## Crudblud

BurningDesire said:


> Nopony


----------



## EddieRUKiddingVarese

Try this ....





Or this - does this help explain....


----------



## deggial

Aecio said:


> Maybe it's related to the weather. Spain is a sunny country with a very intense light and it has produced lots of good painters. People live outside and socialize a lot.


you sure you're not talking about Italy?


----------



## mitchflorida

I will put up Rodrigo's Concierto de Aranjuez up against anything Haydn or Schumann have composed. This entire thread is rather ignorant.


----------



## Head_case

deggial said:


> you sure you're not talking about Italy?


Whatever he's talking about it's not England!

Sudden burst of snow and sleet this afternoon!


----------



## EddieRUKiddingVarese

Maybe he means Mexico............


----------



## Guest

Perotin said:


> How come, there are so few good composers in spanish history? When I think of Spain, only a handful of minor composers comes to my mind, say, Tomás Luis de Victoria, Enrique Granados, Isaac Albéniz, Manuel de Falla. In comparison to other big european nations, like Russia, Germany, France, Italy, this is a really modest contribution to world classical music. Why is that so? Did politics, religion, poor economy or cultural isolation hinder the developement of music? What is your opinion on that?


If you drop the world "musically" from the question I'll agree with it entirely!!! I expect they're all eating Paella with a long-handled shovel these days.


----------



## mitchflorida

Portugal followed by Scotland.


----------



## Musician

I believe that there are a number of factors that have to do with the fact that some nations produced more composers both in quality and quantity then other nations.

First is the cultural aspect, second is the geographical location, and third is the punctilious nature of the nation's people.

The culture thing with Spain is that it is located very closely to Africa and the north African Arab countries. Arab culture had influenced Spain for some time, especially in the time of the Umayyad conquest of Hispania. Now lets be honest, how many world famous noteworthy composers has the Arab world produced? I personally never heard of even one.

So the cultural/geographical influence of the Arabs on Spain has introduced to Spain a more Oriental culture, then the classical mainstream European culture.

The third factor is the punctilious nature of the people, its no secret that Germans are famous for been detailed oriented people, very efficient and punctilious, these traits resemble the art of European Classical composition itself. All the aspects of the composition must be detailed, harmonically logical and accurate. So its no wonder that those people who are known to be detailed oriented would find a natural affinity and success in creating works that demand all of these various characteristics.

Going back to the cultural/geographical aspect, the creation of music as an art form , was mastered by the ancient Greeks, who they too were composed of various Germanic Tribes. The Greeks were German, and since they came up with the idea of music as an art form, then their descendants, the Germans, and other Germanic nations had a natural affinity to be busy with this art form.

What about the Italians? the Italians are geographically located within the heartland of Europe, and thus they were influenced by the European culture more then anything else, and that's besides the fact that their forefathers, the Romans had literally copied the Greek model of life, which put up Art at the forefront of daily life.

What about the Jews? even though Jews are a very tiny group compared to other nations, they have produced disproportionately more Great composers then any nation on earth. From Solomon Rossi, to Mendelssohn, Offenbach, Meyerbeer, Mahler, Alkan, Dukas, and Rubinstein, Hiller, Korngold, Gershwin, and many others, the Jews have carved for themselves a respectful place in the world of music. 

There are a number of factors for this phenomenon, first and foremost, is the historical aspect. The Jews had a great orchestra and choir in the Temple of Solomon, and it was pretty advance too. Their King David was a master composer and musician, also a singer. Jews had always considered music as a great means to achieve spiritual awakening, and there are many biblical examples that point to this fact. So Jewish approach to music was religious, spiritual and intimate. When the Jews were sent to Exile after the destruction of Jerusalem by the Romans, they have brought with them their intense love of music, and the marriage of this Jewish love of music and European artistic approach to music has generated a great amount of stunning music. The Jews are also just like the Germans very punctilious, and detailed oriented, this is due to the extreme detail that the Jews had to perform their services in the Temple, and the perfection of their writing of their religious scrolls. The Torah and some other Holy Writings had to be written by a scholar who had to know many laws and regulations, and had to write it in extreme accuracy, measuring the size of the letters, and other perfections. 

The Japanese are also famous for been detailed oriented people, but they are not connected the European art scene, thus no world famous composers from them, same goes for all the Asian countries, and also the African countries, this was simply never their culture.

Regards,

Saul Dzorelashvili


----------



## starry

elgars ghost said:


> Let's make no bones about it - the UK didn't have a great deal to shout about on the CM composer front for most of the 18th and 19th centuries - the country's strengths, cultural and otherwise, were found elsewhere.


But before and after that there was plenty of stuff? Certainly in the 20th century.


----------



## Mahlerian

Musician said:


> The Japanese are also famous for been detailed oriented people, but they are not connected the European art scene, thus no world famous composers from them, same goes for all the Asian countries, and also the African countries, this was simply never their culture.


Toru Takemitsu? Not world famous? If you're only counting pre-20th century composers, then of course he's out of the running, but among post-WWII 20th century composers, he's definitely among the better-known. Among contemporary composers, Tan Dun is quite well known, if mostly for his film scores rather than his concert music.


----------



## aleazk

Musician said:


> text


Are you aware that all of your reasoning is based on silly stereotypes about how the people of certain nationalities "should" behave?...


----------



## mitchflorida

"Going back to the cultural/geographical aspect, the creation of music as an art form , was mastered by the ancient Greeks, who they too were composed of various Germanic Tribes. The Greeks were German"

Never knew that the Greeks were German. By the way, the Romans were Irish.

.


----------



## Guest

What are some great Greek works of classical music besides Xenakis? I've been curious about the Greeks for a while, but haven't heard anything.


----------



## ptr

arcaneholocaust said:


> What are some great Greek works of classical music besides Xenakis? I've been curious about the Greeks for a while, but haven't heard anything.


I can name a few composers.

Nikos Skallkottas
Eleni Karaindrou
Manolis Kalomiris
Manos Hadjidakis 
Vangelis Papathanassiou 
Mikis Theodorakis

All important for Classical music in Greece, not least through their music for films!

/ptr


----------



## joen_cph

A lot of _Skalkottas_´ works are very good, albeit quite modern and edgy in their style, inspired by the Neue Wiener Schule. For instance his 32 Piano Pieces (Passacaglia 



), 4 Etudes for Piano 



, Violin Concerto 



,1st & 2nd Piano Concerto, Odysseus Ouverture.

_Dmitri Mitropoulos_ seems to be rediscovered as a composer these days, but I haven´t heard much really yet. Includes the big Greek Sonata for piano 




_Yorgos Sicilianos_ wrote some effective 20th-century music too, including a piano concerto and symphonies. Didn´t know this String Quartet no.5 : 



 or his Piano Quintet 



.

_Giannis Konstantinidis_ wrote orchestral works in a pleasant folklore- or French-influenced style


----------



## Musician

Mainstream ask someone in the street to name a great world famous Japanese composer, you wont get a response, I don't even know, and I'm a musician. I just don't know of any famous japanese composers, so what do you think the layman will tell you? but ask anyone to name a famous composer in general, you'll get, Mozart, Beethoven and Bach...


----------



## Musician

Well, yes the Greeks were a germanic tribe.


----------



## Musician

Its not stereotypes, the word stereotypes has to do with a negative connotation, there is nothing negative with what I said, just simple observations.


----------



## Crudblud

Musician said:


> Mainstream ask someone in the street to name a great world famous Japanese composer, you wont get a response, I don't even know, and I'm a musician. I just don't know of any famous japanese composers, so what do you think the layman will tell you? but ask anyone to name a famous composer in general, you'll get, Mozart, Beethoven and Bach...


How many others will you get at all? At that level the fact that those composers are German and not Mongolian or Korean means absolutely nothing.


----------



## Musician

Crudblud said:


> How many others will you get at all? At that level the fact that those composers are German and not Mongolian or Korean means absolutely nothing.


Who says that it has to 'mean' anything?

I'm just telling you what are the simple facts, make a simple test and and ask someone random in the street to name a Japanese world famous composer, you wont get any answer. And the point is, that since most people on this earth couldnt name a great japanese composer, then he wasnt that great to begin with.


----------



## IBMchicago

ptr said:


> I can name a few composers.
> 
> Nikos Skallkottas
> Eleni Karaindrou
> Manolis Kalomiris
> Manos Hadjidakis
> Vangelis Papathanassiou
> Mikis Theodorakis


Too bad Yanni always gets left out.


----------



## Mahlerian

Musician said:


> Who says that it has to 'mean' anything?
> 
> I'm just telling you what are the simple facts, make a simple test and and ask someone random in the street to name a Japanese world famous composer, you wont get any answer. And the point is, that *since most people on this earth couldnt name a great japanese composer, then he wasnt that great to begin with*.


...What?

I guarantee that the only composers the average person on the street will have heard of will be Bach, Beethoven, and Mozart, if that. Maybe one or two more. Certainly no one before Vivaldi. Are you seriously suggesting, for example, that Monteverdi was not a great composer?


----------



## Musician

Mahlerian said:


> ...What?
> 
> I guarantee that the only composers the average person on the street will have heard of will be Bach, Beethoven, and Mozart, if that. Maybe one or two more. Certainly no one before Vivaldi. Are you seriously suggesting, for example, that Monteverdi was not a great composer?


You understood my word 'Great' differently, I meant it in the context of been common. Famous great Japanese composers is not mainstream, its not a common thing, that was my point.


----------



## techniquest

> Is Spain least musically talented nation of Europe?


I would say no, it isn't. In terms of musical talent least known outside of the host nation in Europe, I would suggest Albania, Luxembourg or Belgium.


----------



## Mahlerian

Musician said:


> You understood my word 'Great' differently, I meant it in the context of been common. Famous great Japanese composers is not mainstream, its not a common thing, that was my point.


So, is your assertion here a tautology, then?


Musician said:


> And the point is, that since most people on this earth couldnt name a great japanese composer, then he wasnt that great to begin with.


If "great" means well-known, then a composer who is not well-known is not great.

That's obvious enough, I suppose.

It still has nothing whatsoever to do with the quality of the music. So, using a more conventional definition of "great" as "something of considerable merit", I tell you, Takemitsu is great, and it doesn't matter one bit whether people have heard of him or not (in Japan, he's very well-known and well-recorded).


----------



## Musician

Well Great can't be measured by a single opinion. Great is a consensus, and the reality is that there are no great japanese composers today. If you personally believe that there are, then that's your opinion, but that doesnt change the reality that when you'll stop someone in the street and ask him to name a great Japanese composer, he wouldnt know what to say. Its like saying that there are great white birds on mars, but since this doesn't reflect the general dimension of our relative existence , then who cares what there is on mars, most people never heard of great white birds from mars, and most people couldnt care less about those birds. But you insist that the white birds of mars are great and famous, ok, that's your opinion, but most people don't share this assertion.


----------



## Mahlerian

Musician said:


> Well Great can't be measured by a single opinion. Great is a consensus, and the reality is that there are no great japanese composers today. If you personally believe that there are, then that's your opinion, but that doesnt change the reality that when you'll stop someone in the street and ask him to name a great Japanese composer, he wouldnt know what to say. Its like saying that there are great white birds on mars, but since this doesn't reflect the general dimension of our relative existence , then who cares what there is on mars, most people never heard of great white birds from mars, and most people couldnt care less about those birds. But you insist that the white birds of mars are great and famous, ok, that's your opinion, but most people don't share this assertion.


So, what year did Bach's Mass in B minor become great music? Or did it retroactively become great music after being accepted by consensus?


----------



## Musician

There is a difference between particular works and composers. You can have a great composer that composed nonsense too, and I'm sure Beethoven and Brahms had a huge box where they threw all their garbage manuscripts. But their worthless compositions didn't stop or hinder their status of a great composer, cause their other works have pretty much solidified that position.


----------



## Art Rock

Musician said:


> when you'll stop someone in the street and ask him to name a great Japanese composer, he wouldnt know what to say


So the knowledge of the (wo)man in the street determines what is great? Good to know.


----------



## KenOC

techniquest said:


> I would say no, it isn't. In terms of musical talent least known outside of the host nation in Europe, I would suggest Albania, Luxembourg or Belgium.


Consider also Montenegro. I can't find any famous composers in a brief search, although Nero Wolfe (although fictional) was Montenegran by birth. That certainly counts for something.

BTW Belgium has several famous composers...


----------



## techniquest

> BTW Belgium has several famous composers...


Granted there are some (Frank, Vieuxtemps, Ysaye), but I would suggest Spain has more musical talent overall than Belgium.


----------



## ptr

IBMchicago said:


> Too bad Yanni always gets left out.


Sorry, but he single handedly wrecked the Greek economy so I personally shun him. If he is on your top-list please go ahead and name him! 

/ptr


----------



## KenOC

techniquest said:


> Granted there are some (Frank, Vieuxtemps, Ysaye), but I would suggest Spain has more musical talent overall than Belgium.


Some others to consider (although I too tend to prefer the Spanish composers)...and let's not forget Arriaga who was Basque, from Spain.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Belgian_classical_composers


----------



## aleazk

KenOC said:


> Some others to consider (although I too tend to prefer the Spanish composers)...and let's not forget Arriaga who was Basque, from Spain.
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Belgian_classical_composers


Ravel was also half Basque.


----------



## aleazk

Musician said:


> Its not stereotypes, the word stereotypes has to do with a negative connotation, there is nothing negative with what I said, just simple observations.


Those _are_ stereotypes. How is that, then, that the germans with all of their punctilious nature have not come with a tradition in the field of painting that can rival the spanish one?. Following your criteria about asking the people in the street, if you ask them for a great painter, I would say that the name Picasso will come often, and even Velázquez, Goya, and Dalí.
Spain also has a great tradition in literature. You have Cervantes, Quevedo, Unamuno. In poetry, Hernández, Machado, and Lorca. All of those names are pretty well known.
All of that culture is completely european and can rival the ones of any other european country.
Even in science, the father of modern neuroscience was spanish (Ramón y Cajal). In architecture you have Gaudi, a guy like that only could have come from Spain.
Personally, I don't like most of the spanish composers, with the exception of Gerhard and maybe some other.
But to conclude from that fact that Spain is "untalented" in art because of this supposed isolation and arab influence is incredibly silly and ignorant. 
The germans made great art, if not one of the best. But having other roots that the ones of the german culture does not mean too much in terms of capability for the creation of great art, as you seem to imply.


----------



## Musician

It appears that you forgot that the Dutch are also Germanic, and they had greater painters then the spanish...and also the French are Germanic, france comes from the word frank, the frank germanic tribes, heard of them?

You dont mean to suggest that they are better then the French in painting are you?

http://www.themasterpiececards.com/...d/bid/23653/Famous-Paintings-Venus-and-Adonis



aleazk said:


> Those _are_ stereotypes. How is that, then, that the germans with all of their punctilious nature have not come with a tradition in the field of painting that can rival the spanish one?. Following your criteria about asking the people in the street, if you ask them for a great painter, I would say that the name Picasso will come often, and even Velázquez, Goya, and Dalí.
> Spain also has a great tradition in literature. You have Cervantes, Quevedo, Unamuno. In poetry, Hernández, Machado, and Lorca. All of those names are pretty well known.
> All of that culture is completely european and can rival the ones of any other european country.
> Even in science, the father of modern neuroscience was spanish (Ramón y Cajal). In architecture you have Gaudi, a guy like that only could have come from Spain.
> Personally, I don't like most of the spanish composers, with the exception of Gerhard and maybe some other.
> But to conclude from that fact that Spain is "untalented" in art because of this supposed isolation and arab influence is incredibly silly and ignorant.
> The germans made great art, if not one of the best. But having other roots that the ones of the german culture does not mean too much in terms of capability for the creation of great art, as you seem to imply.


----------



## aleazk

Musician said:


> It appears that you forgot that the Dutch are also Germanic, and they had greater painters then the spanish...and also the French are Germanic, france comes from the word frank, the frank germanic tribes, heard of them?
> 
> You dont mean to suggest that they are better then the French in painting are you?
> 
> http://www.themasterpiececards.com/...d/bid/23653/Famous-Paintings-Venus-and-Adonis


Picasso alone is far more well known than Rembrandt or Vermeer. Picasso is practically seen as the human equivalent of XXth century art.
Try to apply your reasoning to the Dutch. They don't have a very strong musical tradition either, but have a strong painting tradition, i.e., their situation is analogous to that of the spanish. So, being germanic or not is irrelevant.
The French are a mixture of various ancestry, and yes, Germanic is one of them, but it's just only _one_ of them, not all. Some of these other ancestries are also shared by the Spanish, which also have some germanic ancestry in any case, like the Vandals in Andalusia...
I don't think the Spanish tradition is better than the French or viceversa, but certainly they both have great names, which speaks about the importance of both. 
Also, Spanish painters like Velázquez and Goya heavily influenced other very important painters across all Europe. Manet in France, Bacon in England.
Again, let alone the influence of Picasso.
The importance and transcendence of Spanish painting is obvious and only someone with a very obvious agenda would deny it...


----------



## SiegendesLicht

Musician said:


> IThe Greeks were German...


Somehow I have a suspicion Angela Merkel and the folks at the Bundestag believe that too...


----------



## Musician

Did you miss out when I said that its a combination of factors?

Spain, is not Germanic, and its geographical location to Africa factors in.

The Dutch and the French are both Germanic, and they are superior artists then the Spanish. Name one Spanish painter that comes near to Rembrandt level? and if you say Piccaso, he was a modernist, and I'm surprised people take his doodling seriously...

As to why Germany itself has more better composers then other germanic nations, well I guess because Germany is firstly geographically located more in the middle of Europe, and it has been the major country of all germanic tribes.



aleazk said:


> Picasso alone is far more well known than Rembrandt or Vermeer. Picasso is practically seen as the human equivalent of XXth century art.
> Try to apply your reasoning to the Dutch. They don't have a very strong musical tradition either, but have a strong painting tradition, i.e., their situation is analogous to that of the spanish. So, being germanic or not is irrelevant.
> The French are a mixture of various ancestry, and yes, Germanic is one of them, but it's just only _one_ of them, not all. Some of these other ancestries are also shared by the Spanish, which also have some germanic ancestry in any case, like the Vandals in Andalusia...
> I don't think the Spanish tradition is better than the French or viceversa, but certainly they both have great names, which speaks about the importance of both.
> Also, Spanish painters like Velázquez and Goya heavily influenced other very important painters across all Europe. Manet in France, Bacon in England.
> Again, let alone the influence of Picasso.
> The importance and transcendence of Spanish painting is obvious and only someone with a very obvious agenda would deny it...


----------



## aleazk

Musician said:


> and if you say Piccaso, he was a modernist, and I'm surprised people take his doodling seriously...


Thank you. This is enough for me for not taking seriously absolutely anything coming from you in this matter...
Good bye.


----------



## Musician

No problem, you're very welcome.



aleazk said:


> Thank you. This is enough for me for not taking seriously absolutely anything coming from you in this matter...
> Good bye.


----------



## aleazk

Mahlerian said:


> So, what year did Bach's Mass in B minor become great music? Or did it retroactively become great music after being accepted by consensus?


What about the accumulated interest from the non-great period?. It should count, making the piece even more greater!.


----------



## KenOC

techniquest said:


> Granted there are some (Frank, Vieuxtemps, Ysaye), but I would suggest Spain has more musical talent overall than Belgium.


Ah, but Spain has over four times as many people as Belgium. So on a per capita basis, Belgium may still be in the running!


----------



## BurningDesire

Musician said:


> Who says that it has to 'mean' anything?
> 
> I'm just telling you what are the simple facts, make a simple test and and ask someone random in the street to name a Japanese world famous composer, you wont get any answer. And the point is, that since most people on this earth couldnt name a great japanese composer, then he wasnt that great to begin with.


by that logic Justin Bieber is among the great artists of our time


----------



## BurningDesire

Why has this garbage thread been brought back from the grave? Let it die


----------



## BurningDesire

Musician said:


> There is a difference between particular works and composers. You can have a great composer that composed nonsense too, and I'm sure Beethoven and Brahms had a huge box where they threw all their garbage manuscripts. But their worthless compositions didn't stop or hinder their status of a great composer, cause their other works have pretty much solidified that position.


I like how your definition of great just randomly changes depending on your whim from meaning high in quality to meaning well-known and back again. Are you training for the Olympic mental gymnastics?


----------



## KenOC

BurningDesire said:


> by that logic Justin Bieber is among the great artists of our time


Certainly among the most successful artists, and one who evidently provides music that pleases the most people. So what's your definition of "great"?


----------



## PetrB

Musician said:


> Well Great can't be measured by a single opinion. Great is a consensus, and the reality is that there are no great japanese composers today. If you personally believe that there are, then that's your opinion, but that doesnt change the reality that when you'll stop someone in the street and ask him to name a great Japanese composer, he wouldnt know what to say. Its like saying that there are great white birds on mars, but since this doesn't reflect the general dimension of our relative existence , then who cares what there is on mars, most people never heard of great white birds from mars, and most people couldnt care less about those birds. But you insist that the white birds of mars are great and famous, ok, that's your opinion, but most people don't share this assertion.


You're mistaking great for "Famous," and those are two very different things _which only sometimes overlap_.

Madonna and Lady Gaga may be names known in households throughout the world, households who have no idea of who Guiseppe Verdi was, or Pavoratti, for example.

The average guy on the street could not name you one contemporary purely classical composer, from their own country or any other. One look at a forum like Yahoo answers will show you that many people think of film scores, and John Williams, as outstanding contemporary classical music. (Williams has composed some 'straight' classical pieces, probably none of them known by most of the general public.)

So you argument falls to pieces very quickly. Is Madonna really as "Great" as Luciano Berio, just because her name is known in many households?


----------



## KenOC

PetrB said:


> Is Madonna really as "Great" as Luciano Berio, just because her name is known in many households?


Contrariwise, is she not? Which (if either) will be more remembered by history?


----------



## PetrB

KenOC said:


> Contrariwise, is she not? Which (if either) will be more remembered by history?


Well, your humorous ironic streak is showing here, I think.

Madonna is FAMOUS. We all know about History, and his / her flaky memory


----------



## IBMchicago

ptr said:


> Sorry, but he single handedly wrecked the Greek economy so I personally shun him. If he is on your top-list please go ahead and name him!
> 
> /ptr


Well, he's definitely not on my top list and mentioned his name in mild jest. But, I'm curious - how did he single handedly wreck the Greek economy?

Edit: referring to Yanni


----------



## IBMchicago

PetrB said:


> Is Madonna really as "Great" as Luciano Berio, just because her name is known in many households?


She is great to many, many people in this world. Just not to many of us in this forum. Musically, her impact is minimal (unlike Bach or Beethoven). But, her impact on modern pop culture is tremendous. Essentially, it may be more meangingful to debate the merits of a "major great" like Beethoven vs. a "relative great" like Clementi; and keep the Madonna comparisons limited to people in her own league like Britney or Gaga, as opposed to, say, JS Bach. Just makes more sense.


----------



## GiulioCesare

Victoria, Soler, Albeniz, Granados, De Falla, Rodrigo, Mompou...


----------



## Musician

There are no great Japanese composers in the world, and famous has nothing to do with it, this is just a fact.


----------



## KenOC

Musician said:


> There are no great Japanese composers in the world, and famous has nothing to do with it, this is just a fact.


I'm sure the Japanese could name several composers they believe are great. Some are even considered great in the Western world.


----------



## Musician

I just don't believe this, I just don't believe that there are any Great Japanese composers. They have composers, but not Great. If the Japanese think that they're great, then good for them. But I think for myself, and not in accordance to what they think.



KenOC said:


> I'm sure the Japanese could name several composers they believe are great. Some are even considered great in the Western world.


----------



## KenOC

Musician said:


> I just don't believe this, I just don't believe that there are any Great Japanese composers. They have composers, but not Great. If the Japanese think that they're great, then good for them. But I think for myself, and not in accordance to what they think.


In this process of thinking for yourself (which is laudable of course) which Japanese composers did you listen to that you determined weren't great? Which works of, say, Takemitsu? Of Yoshimatsu?


----------



## Musician

I'm just not interested, thank you.



KenOC said:


> In this process of thinking for yourself (which is laudable of course) which Japanese composers did you listen to that you determined weren't great? Which works of, say, Takemitsu? Of Yoshimatsu?


----------



## Blancrocher

KenOC said:


> In this process of thinking for yourself (which is laudable of course) which Japanese composers did you listen to that you determined weren't great? Which works of, say, Takemitsu? Of Yoshimatsu?


I'm not familiar with the works of Yoshimatsu myself. Any recommendations on where to start, KenOC?


----------



## KenOC

Blancrocher said:


> I'm not familiar with the works of Yoshimatsu myself. Any recommendations on where to start, KenOC?


Actually all I have is Yoshimatsu's "Threnody to Toki" Op. 12 from 1980 (Tokyo Metropolitan SO, Ryusuke Numajiri cond.) It's a very nice piece. BTW I have no idea whether anybody would call Yoshimatsu "great" or not. Takemitsu, of course, is another kettle of fish.


----------



## Blancrocher

KenOC said:


> Actually all I have is Yoshimatsu's "Threnody to Toki" Op. 12 from 1980 (Tokyo Metropolitan SO, Ryusuke Numajiri cond.) It's a very nice piece. BTW I have no idea whether anybody would call Yoshimatsu "great" or not. Takemitsu, of course, is another kettle of fish.


I've been interested in Takemitsu for quite some time now, though I'm still finding out about new things to explore in his oeuvre. I'd happily recommend his work to anybody.

I'll look into Yoshimatsu as well.


----------



## BurningDesire

Musician said:


> I'm just not interested, thank you.


So you're making grand statements on something you know absolutely nothing about?


----------



## Art Rock

It does make you wonder why people like that want to join a _discussion _board. And why they get away with it every single time.


----------



## KenOC

BurningDesire said:


> So you're making grand statements on something you know absolutely nothing about?


I suspect all of us occasionally state opinions that go beyond our knowledge. But sometimes this is carried to an extreme. :lol:


----------



## violadude

Blancrocher said:


> I've been interested in Takemitsu for quite some time now, though I'm still finding out about new things to explore in his oeuvre. I'd happily recommend his work to anybody.
> 
> I'll look into Yoshimatsu as well.


Yoshimatsu has 5 symphonies under his belt, as well as a cello concerto, piano concerto, 2 saxophone concertos, a Trombone concerto and a guitar concerto. Also, numerous orchestral works, most having to do with birds.

If you like to start light, try his 4th symphony. If you like to start heavy, his 3rd or 5th symphony would be good.


----------



## violadude

Musician said:


> I don't even know, and I'm a musician.


I'm a musician too and I know at least 10 Asian composers.

Also, shouldn't "greatness" in classical music be decided by fans of classical music? After all, I wouldn't presume myself to have a say on who is the greatest architect or football player, knowing nothing about those two subjects.


----------



## IBMchicago

violadude said:


> I'm a musician too and I know at least 10 Asian composers.
> 
> Also, shouldn't "greatness" in classical music be decided by fans of classical music? After all, I wouldn't presume myself to have a say on who is the greatest architect or football player, knowing nothing about those two subjects.


Very well said. Having heard nothing by a Japanese composer, I can only make an educated guess that I wouldn't enjoy this nearly as much as Bach and Mozart. But, then again, I was wrong about escargot. Not a terrible thing to exercise self-doubt every once in a while.


----------



## KenOC

IBMchicago said:


> Very well said. Having heard nothing by a Japanese composer, I can only make an educated guess that I wouldn't enjoy this nearly as much as Bach and Mozart. But, then again, I was wrong about escargot. Not a terrible thing to exercise self-doubt every once in a while.


A nice place to start is maybe Takemitsu's "Quotation of Dream," a kind of half-awake fantasia on Debussy's La Mer.


----------



## IBMchicago

I appreciate the recommendation, KenOC, and will listen this weekend - thank you.


----------



## PabloElFlamenco

OK, I am and have been interested in anything Spanish since a decade or so, especially wine, food, literature and their cultural expressions in general. Music has been notably absent from that, give or take some exceptions. Why? Well (for crying out loud, gently), because I only started really developing an interest in "classical" music say six months ago. All this is much more telling about me than about the state of Spanish classical music.
"Classical music"? Is that that mostly western-European form of music with a conductor waving a stick around? Of course not. Is that mostly German music with interminable variations done on a piano? Not quite. But I do suspect that, for most, there is some or other "European" connection, even if the music was written in Japan or Korea. Why, some of these formidable Korean performers of so typically European music...absolutely stunning!
One of the entries of this thread did make mention of the lack of Arabian classical music. This did, to an extent, shock me. Because there is a great and wonderful tradition of classical Arabian music, going back to the 9th century in Iraq, brought to Spain and still widely performed in the Arabic world. It is, I believe, mostly an oral tradition, but one must see and hear a 50-man Egyptian or Tunisian concert to see that this is truly "classical" music in a non-European context. Umm Khalthum (spelled in 50 different ways) is but one example of a different form of classicism. Just my 2 Eurocents, mind you...
Perhaps we're too narrow (some of us) in our perception of what is truly "classical music". 
I just bought a 3-CD set of Zarzuelas, which I haven't listened to yet. I hope it will provide me sith some small insight into the kind of music, and songs, I read about in those great Spanish contemporary (starting 1900 or so...) novels I read. From the people to the King, that is the true range of music that may, in the best of events, become truly classical.
Paul


----------



## Chronochromie

I think Ravel's mother was Spanish, if that means something.


----------



## Morimur

I can't believe someone would actually create such a thread. Ridiculous.


----------



## hpowders

Except that inquiring minds want to know!


----------



## hpowders

Lope de Aguirre said:


> I can't believe someone would actually create such a thread. Ridiculous.


Save these words. You can use them to describe 72.63% of all threads posted.


----------



## Morimur

hpowders said:


> Except that inquiring minds want to know!


These inquiring minds can kiss my Spanish descendant ****. Tee-hee!


----------



## hpowders

Der Leiermann said:


> I think Ravel's mother was Spanish, if that means something.


Hold on. Let me do a simple calculation. Mother (Spanish) + Father (not Spanish) divided by two...hmmm....

I'd say Ravel was most likely half-Spanish, then.


----------



## Heliogabo

Come on:
Albéniz, Falla, Granados, Mompou, Blasco de nebra, Soler. Just to mention the knowest of them...


----------



## Guest

It would only take one Catalan, Roberto Gerhard, to make the premise of this thread ridiculous.

And Gerhard's not alone, by any stretch.

How about Francisco López (Madrid)? Gerhard died in 1970, but López is very much alive and even the co-composer of the month (with Bartók) this month on this very board as ever it is.

Not to mention....


----------



## DonAlfonso

Perotin said:


> How come, there are so few good composers in spanish history? When I think of Spain, only a handful of minor composers comes to my mind, say, Tomás Luis de Victoria, Enrique Granados, Isaac Albéniz, Manuel de Falla. In comparison to other big european nations, like Russia, Germany, France, Italy, this is a really modest contribution to world classical music. Why is that so? Did politics, religion, poor economy or cultural isolation *hinder the developement of music*? What is your opinion on that?


You probably didn't mean it but I found the title you gave this thread somewhat offensive. It's clear from the body of your post that you had only western classic music in mind - that should have been made clear in the title.

Spain is, on the contrary, one of the most musical (and musically talented) of nations. The Moorish/Arabic and Romany influences that Spanish music absorbed led their composers in different directions than the northern Europeans. I'm certain the posters who counted the number of Spanish conservatories on this thread could not have been counting the numerous flamenco schools there.

If you have a vibrant music culture at home why would you compose in an alien style? Why would you write a minuet when you can compose a Bulería?


----------



## Guest

Spain also seems to be churning out quite a few contemporary hopefuls, judging by the KAIROS catalogue I've begun to frequent.


----------



## Guest

If they've been recorded by KAIROS, then I would say that their hoping days are over!!

But yeah, Marco, López López, Hidalgo, Torres, Lazkano, Parra, Posadas, Sánchez-Verdú, Rueda. 

Any reports of Spain lagging behind are grossly exaggerated!


----------



## scratchgolf

Changed my mind


----------



## Morimur

DonAlfonso said:


> You probably didn't mean it but I found the title you gave this thread somewhat offensive. It's clear from the body of your post that you had only western classic music in mind - that should have been made clear in the title.
> 
> Spain is, on the contrary, one of the most musical (and musically talented) of nations. The Moorish/Arabic and Romany influences that Spanish music absorbed led their composers in different directions than the northern Europeans. I'm certain the posters who counted the number of Spanish conservatories on this thread could not have been counting the numerous flamenco schools there.
> 
> If you have a vibrant music culture at home why would you compose in an alien style? Why would you write a minuet when you can compose a Bulería?


----------



## Guest

some guy said:


> If they've been recorded by KAIROS, then I would say that their hoping days are over!!
> 
> But yeah, Marco, *López López*, Hidalgo, Torres, Lazkano, *Parra*, *Posadas*, *Sánchez-Verdú*, Rueda.
> 
> Any reports of Spain lagging behind are grossly exaggerated!


I've listened to the bolded ones so far. Fantastic.

EDIT: And *Mendoza*


----------



## afterpostjack

I have thought about this as well, but in the context of my own country - Sweden. Our neighbouring countries have produced great composers such as Nielsen, Sibelius and Grieg while we don't have anything of such calibre to show for - as well as some of our greatest composers being imports (Berwald and Kraus come to mind). I suppose the priorities of the ruling classes have been pivotal in deciding which crafts that were to be perfected and that they simply were not as interested in music here.


----------



## Guest

Berwald an import? He was born in Stockholm, after all. Died there, too.

Stenhammar was no slouch.

Lars-Erik Larsson was roughly Grieg level, I'm guessing. (I don't really think vertically, but I used to, so I can still fake it.)

What about Alan Pettersson? Pretty important figure, no?

Karl-Birger Blomdahl?

Ingvar Lidholm?

Lars Gunnar Bodin?

Åke Parmerud? Surely Åke Parmerud.

Not that any of the others are exactly chopped liver.

Well, I wouldn't sell Sweden short, either.

[Next week, Ecuador!]


----------



## Guest

I would say Sweden and Norway are roughly equal. Grieg was, perhaps, a better chamber/piano/song composer than Berwald, for instance, but I would certainly say Berwald was more well-rounded with orchestral abilities. And where Norway brings Tveitt, Valen, and Nordheim in a little later on, Rosenberg and, without a doubt, PETTERSSON were nothing to sneeze at. I haven't heard any Swedish music as modern as Nordheim, which is a shame, but I haven't heard everyone that someguy mentioned either. I've chosen to focus my expertise first on Finland, anyway. Oh, and don't forget Iceland. Thorvaldsdottir is coming on as strong as just about any other Nordic contemporary.

/Nordicmusicrant

Edit: I have looked up the more modern names in someguy's list, and I'm seeing some electro-acoustic shenanigans going on. Exciting! Do the other Nordic countries next, someguy! (Though I would say I know a fair bit about Finland as it is. 16 Finns on my iPod  )


----------



## Giordano

Some "older" Spanish Music:

La Lira d'Esperia 





El Cant de la Sibilla


----------



## Kevin Pearson

Nuukeer said:


> I have thought about this as well, but in the context of my own country - Sweden. Our neighbouring countries have produced great composers such as Nielsen, Sibelius and Grieg while we don't have anything of such calibre to show for - as well as some of our greatest composers being imports (Berwald and Kraus come to mind). I suppose the priorities of the ruling classes have been pivotal in deciding which crafts that were to be perfected and that they simply were not as interested in music here.


I'd certainly put these up there with those you list!

Ludvig Norman (1831-1885)
Wilhelm Stenhammar (1871-1927)
Hugo Alfvén (1872-1960) 
Ture Rangström (1884-1947)
Kurt Atterberg (1887-1974)


----------



## hpowders

Who needs their music? I go there for the tapas.


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## Rhombic

Domenico Scarlatti lived in Spain.


----------



## SilverSurfer

hpowders said:


> Who needs their music? I go there for the tapas.


:lol: Most tapas talented nation of the world!
Which proves you do know what you are talking about...


----------



## joen_cph

Kevin Pearson said:


> I'd certainly put these up there with those you list!
> 
> Ludvig Norman (1831-1885)
> Wilhelm Stenhammar (1871-1927)
> Hugo Alfvén (1872-1960)
> Ture Rangström (1884-1947)
> Kurt Atterberg (1887-1974)


yes, and one could easily mention a good deal more fine and interesting Swedish composers that also have been quite well-recorded - including Adolf Wiklund, Natanael Berg, Sven David Sandström, Daniel Börtz, Mathias Hammerth, Hans Holewa, Gösta Nystroem, Gunnar de Frumerie, John Fernström, J.M. Kraus, Dag Wirén, Lillebror Söderlundh, Hans Eklund, etc. etc.


----------



## ArtMusic

Perotin said:


> How come, there are so few good composers in spanish history? When I think of Spain, only a handful of minor composers comes to my mind, say, Tomás Luis de Victoria, Enrique Granados, Isaac Albéniz, Manuel de Falla. In comparison to other big european nations, like Russia, Germany, France, Italy, this is a really modest contribution to world classical music. Why is that so? Did politics, religion, poor economy or cultural isolation hinder the developement of music? What is your opinion on that?


A great "Spanish" composer was Domenico Scarlatti. He spent the last twenty-five years of his life there and had children / family there. Apart from Scarlatti, no other great Spanish composer comes to my mind.


----------



## SimonNZ

ArtMusic said:


> A great "Spanish" composer was Domenico Scarlatti. He spent the last twenty-five years of his life there and had children / family there. *Apart from Scarlatti, no other great Spanish composer comes to my mind*.


If only there were some 11-page thread on Spanish music that offered such names amidst the discussion...


----------



## pianolearnerstride

Maybe Spain wasn't as interested in traditional western classical music, and instead focused on their own music. Or maybe the richness of the local music led to little need to adopt other musical traditions...

Western classical music is a very specific and narrow tradition on a worldwide scale... it's not all that different from asking why China doesn't have more great progressive rock artists...


----------



## Albert7

Spain has some awesome classical music. For example, Joaquín Rodrigo is pretty fly for a guy.


----------



## tdc

albertfallickwang said:


> Spain has some awesome classical music. For example, Joaquín Rodrigo is pretty fly for a guy.


One of my favorite composers - the only thing that irks me a little is the vast majority of people only seem to listen to his concertos, some of which are nice, but I think in general this is a weaker area of his output.


----------



## Granate

hpowders said:


> Who needs their music? I go there for the tapas.


Saving Asian food, I am very proud of our gastronomy and what it provides to the world. Besides, it's cheap! Go for them!


----------



## Pugg

Granate said:


> Saving Asian food, I am very proud of our gastronomy and what it provides to the world. Besides, it's cheap! Go for them!


Me too, always fresh fish dishes .:clap:


----------



## Granate

I see some depth comments in the beginning, and then talking about why Greece or Japan are in a similar situation towards *classical music.*

You may all know that for the moment I am a die-hard Austrian-Germanic Classical music lover. These two countries, both for camera music, orchestral music, piano solos and opera together with Italy and France have been the major influences in defining th discourse of Western music with strings, percussion and brass instruments as the whole genre it is known for today.

*Relations Western-Spain.*
Spain, unlike Northern countries like Russia and Findland's Sibelius, has been managing our own politics and our own cultural influences since the beginning of the 18th century. Thus does not mean that musical influences from France, Italy or even Germany didn't go inside the country for the enjoyment of the court, but together Language barriers and later transportation issues prevented a lot of Spanish classical music from going out.
During the post-romantic 19th century we somehow became a major reference in Europe's culture for being 'Exotic', not European, but attractive, sensual, colourful. From here in music Spanish folk music, of which only Flamenco succeeded, started to become interesting.
I am not against this. I totally support being loved for being different. But if this defines what we are good at, it would be very difficult to bring to fame an Orchestral composer. If we talk about Zarzuela, and I will maybe be very wrong, it was obviously spoken in Spanish, but their topics and characters are so localised that they fail to promote something universal. Verdi with Nabucco at least provided an international European conflict setting it in ancient Babylonia and sung in Italian.

*Relations inside Spain*
My country mates may not agree, but it is difficult to connect a political capital city with the corners of our medium-sized country when we have the 2nd highest average altitude in Europe after Switzerland. Transportation would take months, and we are today figuring out how are we going to mantain all our motorways when High-speed trains are still very expensive. Spain from the 18th century failed to become a French-like state and stays as what it is, a federation of local kingdoms with their own cultural and political traits. In Andalucia, where I was born, and towns of Castilla-La Mancha, Flamenco not only developed from local folk music to an art on its own, it also received the spotlight of late 19th and 20th century music heatseekers.

At this moment I am listening to Dowland's lute works and for me they don't sound "British" but also Spanish and I draw comparisons with the Spanish guitar.

So how should I answer this question?
Of course we are not musically untalented, but we lack the spotlight and even own knowledge for local orchestral composers apart from Granados and Manuel de Falla. Saying that, we still cannot match the feats that German and Austrian composers achieved, and which has defined what Classical music means as a genre.
Besides, geographical conditions and closed-doors culture policies are not benefitial at all if countries like mine, Japan or Greece,.... and the UK, want to feel like winners.

Maybe this answer would also be valid to explain why we also stink at Eurovision Song Contest :lol:


----------



## hpowders

Granate said:


> Saving Asian food, I am very proud of our gastronomy and what it provides to the world. Besides, it's cheap! Go for them!


Maybe in two years a visit to Spain!

I would go sooner, but I am booked solid giving pithy posting seminars.


----------



## Sloe

I don´t think Greece is in that bad situation they have only 1/4 of Spain´s population and they have both Theodorakis and Xenakis. Think also that they were under Turkish rule for a long time.


----------



## Guest

Sloe said:


> I don´t think Greece is in that bad situation they have only 1/4 of Spain´s population and they have both Theodorakis and Xenakis. Think also that they were under Turkish rule for a long time.


And Skalkottas and Aperghis and Borboudakis and Tsangaris and the list goes on  People that make these kinds of threads probably just don't know where to look.


----------



## TwoFlutesOneTrumpet

I would say Catalonia probably?


----------



## Casebearer

I's say Portugal even beats Spain


----------



## Pugg

I love Spain, the people and the food, lifestyle and .....they have / had some great singers.


----------



## tdc

I think Germany, Austria, Italy, France and Russia beat Spain in terms of classical music contributions, but Spain is as important or more than any of the other European countries.


----------



## Chronochromie

tdc said:


> I think Germany, Austria, Italy, France and Russia beat Spain in terms of classical music contributions, but Spain is as important or more than any of the other European countries.


Also Hungary and Finland.


----------



## KenOC

Lichtenstein! I mean, why are they even here?

Actually, there's an answer. Lichtenstein is the world's largest producer of false teeth.


----------



## Art Rock

KenOC said:


> Lichtenstein! I mean, why are they even here?


Li*e*chtenstein. They produced one decent composer though: Josef Rheinberger (especially his organ works).


----------



## KenOC

Lichtenstein --- what can I say. Don't even know how to spell their own country!


----------



## Prodromides

KenOC said:


> Lichtenstein! I mean, why are they even here?
> 
> Actually, there's an answer. Lichtenstein is the world's largest producer of false teeth.


As if products are required to justify a country's existence...


----------



## hpowders

What would be the purpose of such a thread?

To me all the title does is promote ill will among the posters on TC from Spain.

I find it to be "insensitive".


----------



## Pugg

KenOC said:


> Lichtenstein! I mean, why are they even here?
> 
> Actually, there's an answer. Lichtenstein is the world's largest producer of false teeth.


From own experience speaking?


----------



## Strange Magic

To my mind, Spain has not only produced its fair share of composers and musicians (both virtuoso singers and instrumentalists), but has provided itself as an almost hypnotic source of inspiration to non-Hispanic composers, principally those of Russia and France. It's expected that certain composers will focus on the "folkish" merits or sources of their own countries' musics, but Spain tops all others as an extraterritorial catalyst. Russians Glinka, Tchaikovsky, Rimsky-Korsakov spring to mind; French composers Bizet, Chabrier, Debussy, Ravel. Probably because Spain seems the most "exotic", quasi-oriental (Gypsy/Arabic) of European countries, in large part IMO due to the influence of flamenco on the non-Hispanic population. ¡Viva España y Viva Flamenco!


----------



## Strange Magic

More French Hispanophiles: I forgot Édouard Lalo and Jacques Ibert.


----------



## sloth

Although it may sound rhetoric music has no borders and speaks a universal language. After all national identity is a concept invented in the 19th century with Romanticism. In the Renaissance and Baroque eras cities like Venice, Rome, London, Naples were huge multicultural centres where musicians could exchange their views and learn from each other. For ex. Lully, an Italian gave birth to the French Musical Theatre. Many Flemish composers worked in Rome and other Italian Signorie. Also "provincial" towns like Mannheim had a great importance in musical history (its style was created by Italians, Bohemians and Germans). 
Music is about contamination not identity. Identity leads inevitably to fascism, while the best music is "dialogic" imho!


----------



## hpowders

Sloe said:


> I don´t think Greece is in that bad situation they have only 1/4 of Spain´s population and they have both Theodorakis and Xenakis. Think also that they were under Turkish rule for a long time.


We have some very nice posters on TC from Greece.


----------



## lluissineu

Many times have I tried to post to this thread.

Today, in a coffee break at The office I was explaining The matter to a mate and he had an idea. Historically, Spain was an state quite early in time. That meant that there was only a court and we must admit that, even though it was interested in other Kinds of art (eg painting) it lacked interest in music.

In other countries, quite the opposite, there were more centres of power (eg. The holy Roman Empire, Italy..) and consequently more need for court musicians.

I must add that my country has never been very fond of classical music (don't know The reason), therefore musicians have never been especially loved in Spain.

When I see the musical outlook in neighbour contries (Britain, Germany, France) I'm green with envy. 

Talking about history (another hobby of mine) for instance, people in some countries (eg GB) enjoy it: there are plenty of magazines, lectures... Who couldn't ever think of having in Spain something similar to The Richard III society?

I always feel closer to people from other european countries than from mine.

I hope you all enjoy your visits to Spain and our food (many talked about tapas), Meanwhile I'll be trying to change my nationality.


----------



## lluissineu

Pugg said:


> I love Spain, the people and the food, lifestyle and .....they have / had some great singers.


Once The Netherlands belonged to The Spanish crown, but there were too many protestants :lol:


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## Granate

Pugg said:


> I love Spain, the people and the food, lifestyle and .....they have / had some great singers.


TBH, not a fan of Caballé and Domingo, but I do love Victoria de los Ángeles.


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## Strange Magic

@lluinissineu: It may be also that Spain, after the Reconquista, sealed itself within itself, with a very strict religion as a stiffening backbone. The later outward flow of the conquistadors to the Far East and the New World brought back gold and silver and some new fruits and vegetables, but few new ideas like the ones that began to circulate in other parts of Europe: "Let no new thing arise!" became even more fixed in the Spanish psyche. And even the Napoleonic occupation and the subsequent liberation may again have served only to withdraw Spain into itself. So Spain got off to a really late start in exploring new art and music. But I think it has caught up pretty quickly--in music, painting, film, performance. Picasso, Miró, Segovia--the list could go on indefinitely. Stay where you are--I should think Mallorca is a pretty nice place!


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## lluissineu

Strange Magic said:


> @lluinissineu: It may be also that Spain, after the Reconquista, sealed itself within itself, with a very strict religion as a stiffening backbone. The later outward flow of the conquistadors to the Far East and the New World brought back gold and silver and some new fruits and vegetables, but few new ideas like the ones that began to circulate in other parts of Europe: "Let no new thing arise!" became even more fixed in the Spanish psyche. And even the Napoleonic occupation and the subsequent liberation may again have served only to withdraw Spain into itself. So Spain got off to a really late start in exploring new art and music. But I think it has caught up pretty quickly--in music, painting, film, performance. Picasso, Miró, Segovia--the list could go on indefinitely. Stay where you are--I should think Mallorca is a pretty nice place!


Excelente post, Strange magic. It's a crying shame to think that, for many spaniards, all americans eat hamburgers, watch tv, lack geografical and historical knowledge and are self-centred.

I'd like to show them how much american TC posters know. (Maybe they wouldn't catch it).

My best wishes to New Jersey and to all american posters.


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## sloth

lluissineu said:


> Many times have I tried to post to this thread.
> 
> Today, in a coffee break at The office I was explaining The matter to a mate and he had an idea. Historically, Spain was an state quite early in time. That meant that there was only a court and we must admit that, even though it was interested in other Kinds of art (eg painting) it lacked interest in music.
> 
> In other countries, quite the opposite, there were more centres of power (eg. The holy Roman Empire, Italy..) and consequently more need for court musicians.
> 
> I must add that my country has never been very fond of classical music (don't know The reason), therefore musicians have never been especially loved in Spain.
> 
> When I see the musical outlook in neighbour contries (Britain, Germany, France) I'm green with envy.
> 
> Talking about history (another hobby of mine) for instance, people in some countries (eg GB) enjoy it: there are plenty of magazines, lectures... Who couldn't ever think of having in Spain something similar to The Richard III society?
> 
> I always feel closer to people from other european countries than from mine.
> 
> I hope you all enjoy your visits to Spain and our food (many talked about tapas), Meanwhile I'll be trying to change my nationality.


Are you from Majorca? I'm a big fan of Catalan early music (and of course his maestro, Jordi Savall!)


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## Pugg

Granate said:


> TBH, not a fan of Caballé and Domingo, but I do love Victoria de los Ángeles.


Pilar Lorengar, the young Carreras and do not forget Alfredo Kraus.


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## Pugg

lluissineu said:


> Once The Netherlands belonged to The Spanish crown, but there were too many protestants :lol:


All water under the bridge......we are friends now, specially the royals.


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## lluissineu

Of course we are. But It's one of the few countries of Europe I haven't still visited. And I must say It's perhaps one of my top list. 

Fortunately I could see and listen to The RCO in Barcelona and London.


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## Vietnamese Opera

Juan Hidalgo de Polanco ( b.1614- 1685) should be on any list of Spanish composers according to a Spanish friend of mine.


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## christomacin

I think Berwald was a near master who had a unique and instantly recognizable sound. If he had come from Germany he would be considered a significant composer. Alfven and Stenhammar are also solid and occasionally come within hailing distance of greatness. Still, I think Berwald is as close as Sweden has ever come.


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## Flavius

Vaughan Williams said a composer's first obligation is to speak to his own people, i.e. to speak in an idiom they understand, to give them what they want to hear, to satisfy their musical needs. If his inspiration gains international acceptance, that's well and good, but secondary. Spanish composers certainly follow this dictum, though Albéniz had a more international view, and Roberto Gerhard. One of the greatest pianists of our time, Esteban Sánchez, Cortot's pupil, rejected an international career and preferred to stay in his home town, concertizing in Spain. A Spanish singer that was among the most gifted of tenors, Miguel Fleta, sang mostly in Spain, and of course we have heard De Larocha, Berganza, Domingo, Bayo...Segovia. My personal interest focuses on the Basque composers, such as Escudero, an especially Jesus Guridi.

Among the great Renaissance composers, along with Palestrina, Byrd, and Lassus, was Tomás Luis de Victoria from Avila. Ortega y Gasset, however, did say that it is Velásquez who represents the striving of the Spanish soul, as Bach the German.


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## asiago12

I would like to know the most popolar classic composers in Spain..


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## starthrower

Spain gave the world Segovia, Picasso, Salvador Dali, Goya, Granados, Albeniz, Mompou, Rodrigo, Turina, Sor. And the great Flamenco tradition. Not a bad contribution to the arts.


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## Strange Magic

Let's not forget Francisco de Zurbarán, El Greco (despite the name), Cervantes, Joan Miró, Juan Gris, Luis Buñuel, Miguel de Unamuno, and Ortega y Gasset.


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## Open Book

During a recent Berlin Philharmonic concert it was remarked (probably by whoever was conducting) that Ravel's Symphonie Espangnol and Bolero were the great Spanish Symphonies that no Spaniard had written.


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## science

Surely Spain beats Andorra, San Marino, Monaco, Malta, and Liechtenstein, all put together.


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## science

Open Book said:


> During a recent Berlin Philharmonic concert it was remarked (probably by whoever was conducting) that Ravel's Symphonie Espangnol and Bolero were the great Spanish Symphonies that no Spaniard had written.


Symphonies are overrated! Who are the great French composers for classical guitar?


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## asiago12

starthrower said:


> Spain gave the world Segovia, Picasso, Salvador Dali, Goya, Granados, Albeniz, Mompou, Rodrigo, Turina, Sor. And the great Flamenco tradition. Not a bad contribution to the arts.


Many people say that Velasquez is ONE of the greatest painter ever.. together with Raphael, Titian, Michelangelo, Leonardo, Caravaggio, Botticelli, Giotto, Rembrandt, Rubens,Jan Vermeer, Antoon van Dyck, Albrecht Dürer, Manet, Monet, Van Gogh...


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## Open Book

science said:


> Symphonies are overrated! Who are the great French composers for classical guitar?


I think Spain has contributed greatly to music even if it's not symphonies. Where would Latin music of the New World be without Spain? I just thought it was an interesting remark that was made.

Incidentally, I meant Rhapsodie Espagnol by Ravel, not Symphonie Espagnol.


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## FleshRobot

asiago12 said:


> Many people say that Velasquez is ONE of the greatest painter ever.. together with Raphael, Titian, Michelangelo, Leonardo, Caravaggio, Botticelli, Giotto, Rembrandt, Rubens,Jan Vermeer, Antoon van Dyck, Albrecht Dürer, Manet, Monet, Van Gogh...


And also El Greco, Goya, Dalí, Picasso, Miró... what is your point, exactly?


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## starthrower

science said:


> Symphonies are overrated! Who are the great French composers for classical guitar?


Maurice Ohana is the only one I know.


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## FleshRobot

I disagree with the idea that Spain has few great composers. The Netherlands' and Flanders' populations combined is half of Spain's, but I can't think of a single dutch-speaking composer I am familiar with, whereas Spain have a dozen composers I'm fond of. Maybe some franco-Flemish renaissance composers are an exception, I don't know.


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## Bwv 1080

science said:


> Symphonies are overrated! Who are the great French composers for classical guitar?


Robert deVisee

Does Fernando Sor count, given he spent his career in Paris?

Is Domenico Scarlatti spanish? Spain certainly permeates his music

As for French French there is Napoleon Coste, but to call any 19th century guitar composer other than Sor or maybe Tarrega 'great' is a stretch


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## Room2201974

science said:


> Symphonies are overrated! Who are the great French composers for classical guitar?


A historical and geographical anomaly more than anything. Its like asking who hit the best flop shot; Jones, Sarazen, or Hagen? Or, the list of all great Microneasian bagpipers!

The fret board is far from ignored in French music history with the lute music of the French Baroque, complete with non Renaissance tunings and an arpeggio style to help an instrument with a rapid envelope decay. The paradigm shift with lute tunings is at the heart of the difference between the two historical periods. Akin to the sea change in fret board playing that opened up with the alternative guitar tunings in the 60's.

Now you'll have to excuse me, I need to get back to listening to my latest CD purchase: _Great Argentinean Balalaika Players of the Renanssiance_!


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## ManuelMozart95

This is utterly ridiculous. While Spain may not be on par with Germany, Italy, France, etc it has produced more famous and important composers than a lot of countries.
Tomás Luis de Victoria, Antonio Soler, Fernando Sor, Pablo de Sarasate, Manuel de Falla, Isaac Albéniz, Francisco Tárrega and Josquin Rodrigo among others.

That alone puts it above Greece, Romania, Lithuania, Sweden and many other countries at least if we talk about Classical Music.

Either the person who created the post is ill informed or has a prejudice against Spain.
I would admit though that Spain's contributions to literature and painting have been much greater though. In those two art forms it is top notch.


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## hammeredklavier

Vicente Martin y Soler

Anastasio Martín Ignacio Vicente Tadeo Francisco Pellegrin Martín y Soler (2 May 1754 - 30 January or 10 February 1806) was a Spanish composer of opera and ballet. Although relatively obscure now, in his own day he was compared favorably with his contemporary, Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart, as a composer of opera buffa. In his time he was called "Martini lo spagnuolo" ("Martini the Spaniard"); in modern times, he has been called "the Valencian Mozart". He was known primarily for his melodious Italian comic operas and his work with Lorenzo Da Ponte in the late 18th century, as well as the melody from Una cosa rara quoted in the dining scene of Mozart's Don Giovanni.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vicente_Martín_y_Soler


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## asiago12

De Falla is really a great composer..

"El amor brujo"


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## Larkenfield

In the event that he hasn't been mentioned recently, there's also Padre Antonio Soler (1729 - 1783), who wrote with tremendous dash, flair, and was colorful and spirited. I love the Spanish idiom.

"Antonio Soler is best known for his many mostly one-movement keyboard sonatas strongly influenced by Domenico Scarlatti, which constitute a very important, quite underrated, contribution to the harpsichord, fortepiano and organ repertoire."

I consider him more boldly Spanish in character, perhaps more proud, noble and intense than Scarlatti with both showing the influence of the guitar on many of their sonatas, more noticeable when played on the harpsichord where the strings are plucked rather than struck.

I feel it's unfair to view Spain as less musically talented than the rest of Europe. But when I look at their list of composers, I see some who perhaps liked to work on a more intimate scale, such as expressed through much of their vivid keyboard music by Scarlatti, Soler, Granados, Albéniz, and others.

Speaking in broad terms, I believe the emotions of the Spanish culture tend to be intense, generally intense, and more clearly black and white: when they're happy, they're happy; when they're depressed, they're more clearly miserable and depressed. There are the extremes, which I respect, and I believe they embrace the emotional highs and lows more viscerally than, say, the French who I would judge as being more rationalizing and intellectualizing. Are there different cultures in Europe? Of course!-even if mentioning national characteristics can sometimes sound like stereotypes.


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## musicrom

I think the most surprising Europe country with a lack of classical music history is the Netherlands. For much of history, they've been at least somewhat of a powerhouse. And actually during the Renaissance, you had the major Franco-Flemish school. So I would have expected at least some big names throughout the common practice period, but really, I'm still not familiar with a single name in the Classical or Romantic eras. Only recently have we started to see a bit of a resurgence with composers like the Andriessens & van der Aa.


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## Rogerx

asiago12 said:


> De Falla is really a great composer..
> 
> "El amor brujo"


And lots of other great pieces.


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## asiago12

This is great classical music

Barenboim - "El amor brujo" (Danza ritual del fuego) Falla


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## 1996D

Denmark, the Balkans, the Baltic states, Sweden, Portugal, and the UK are just as lacking or worse. 

The culture of composing was concentrated in central Europe. There Haydn mentored Mozart and Beethoven, and from there the latter influenced Schumann, Liszt, Chopin, Mendelssohn, and Brahms who all knew and competed against one another, creating a grand artistic environment. The ambitious Liszt then influenced Wagner and from him Bruckner, Mahler, Strauss, and Sibelius are born.

In a time when travelling was hard it couldn't have happened anywhere else but Central Europe, that had the population and the orderly culture necessary to birth such talent.


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## asiago12

1996D said:


> Denmark, the Balkans, the Baltic states, Sweden, Portugal, and the UK are just as lacking or worse.
> 
> The culture of composing was concentrated in central Europe. There Haydn mentored Mozart and Beethoven, and from there the latter influenced Schumann, Liszt, Chopin, Mendelssohn, and Brahms who all knew and competed against one another, creating a grand artistic environment. The ambitious Liszt then influenced Wagner and from him Bruckner, Mahler, Strauss, and Sibelius are born.
> 
> In a time when travelling was hard it couldn't have happened anywhere else but Central Europe, that had the population and the orderly culture necessary to birth such talent.


Don't forget that the culture of composing music was "born" in Italy and not in central Europe.

The first pianoforte ( an Italian "invention" ) sonatas were Italian.. and Chopin arrived much later... when it was clear how to "play" the pianoforte..


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