# Let's Talk Fidelio!



## DiesIraeCX (Jul 21, 2014)

Lately, I'm coming to enjoy this work very much, it never really was one of my favorite Beethoven works, needless to say, it's growing on me. The vocal quartet toward the beginning is sublime, as is Florestan's aria, the Prisoner's chorus, and the music is amazing. His first and only opera was a masterly one, makes me wish he wrote more of them! What are your thoughts on this opera, your favorite recordings, anything you have to say about this work!

I've been watching this recording with L. Bernstein (Janowitz, Popp, Kollo, Helm, Sotin, Jungwirth, Dallapozza)






I also have my eye on the Abbado Fidelio (Kaufmann) and the legendary Klemperer recording.

















*And yes, I shamelessly stole Itullian's trademark "Let's Talk..." thread title. Thanks, man!*


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

I like my Fidelio with gravitas. 
My favorite recordings aren't to popular taste. 
Karajan/Klemperer tied. Karajan more exciting, Klemperer more profound.
Furtwangler, Knappertsbusch
I've listened to most of them.
And do not like Abbado's light, quick way that most do. And you might.

IMO Fidelio is GREAT music Maybe not technically a great opera, but who cares.
It's great Beethoven.
That DVD is a fine one.

mho

nice format too


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

My favorites, though I have not listened to Itullian's recommendations (I can get Klemperer through the library network), are the DVD of Fidelio conducted by Bernstein with Gundula Janowitz. I like all the singers in this. There also is a Bernstein CD done a few weeks after the opera was video recorded with most of the same singers. Both are my favorites so far.


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

While I have a very difficult time imagining Jon Vickers with his fantastic ringing tenor as being someone who has been stuck in a dungeon for years, his singing is quite special and fits well with Klemperer's stately view of the work ... and I do not consider 'stately' to be in any way perjorative - actually Itullian's 'gravitas' is a great description. Excitement is great ... in its place, but _Fidelio_ calls for something different, more thoughtful.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

I saw it 3 times at Seattle Opera with Jane Eaglen at her vocal peak in the title role. It has such wonderful music and a very relatable storyline that comes to a great emotional climax at the end. It is the perfect length for an opera as well.


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## Albert7 (Nov 16, 2014)

I love this opera. Some people hate this opera and think that Beethoven couldn't do it but they are wrong.

Too bad Beethoven didn't compose more operas .


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Itullian said:


> I like my Fidelio with gravitas.
> My favorite recordings aren't to popular taste.
> Karajan/Klemperer tied. Karajan more exciting, Klemperer more profound.
> Furtwangler, Knappertsbusch
> ...


I haven't heard all the recordings you and others here have, but I'm of similar taste for _gravitas_ in this very special work of Beethoven. I've never found Klemperer stodgy in this music, but rather noble and profound, bringing to it the seriousness and warmth a story of faithful love and courage should convey. Christa Ludwig and Jon Vickers fulfill their roles vocally and dramatically and leave me deeply moved and inspired, Gottlob Frick is once again black-toned, hearty, ideal in a German bass part, the other cast member are more than adequate, and the whole production breathes the spirit of idealism which certainly motivated its creation. A live performance might have brought a touch more visceral excitement to the proceedings (supposedly it does in Klemperer's live recording with Sena Jurinac, which I would like to hear), but there's nothing seriously lacking in this EMI studio classic. I've always loved it and I suppose I always will.


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

Woodduck said:


> I haven't heard all the recordings you and others here have, but I'm of similar taste for _gravitas_ in this very special work of Beethoven. *I've never found Klemperer stodgy in this music, but rather noble and profound, bringing to it the seriousness and warmth a story of faithful love and courage should convey.* Christa Ludwig and Jon Vickers fulfill their roles vocally and dramatically and leave me deeply moved and inspired, Gottlob Frick is once again black-toned, hearty, ideal in a German bass part, the other cast member are more than adequate, and the whole production breathes the spirit of idealism which certainly motivated its creation. A live performance might have brought a touch more visceral excitement to the proceedings (supposedly it does in Klemperer's live recording with Sena Jurinac, which I would like to hear), but there's nothing seriously lacking in this EMI studio classic. I've always loved it and I suppose I always will.


Totally agree...........


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

​
Somehow _I_ always comes back to the Solti recording.
I do think that Peter Hofmann is doing a very good, Florestan while Behrens is in very good voice as Leonore.


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## Albert7 (Nov 16, 2014)

I need to hear Leonore someday... earlier draft of the opera.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Albert7 said:


> I need to hear Leonore someday... earlier draft of the opera.


Very much worthwhile. There is fine music Beethoven excised. I recommend the recording with Edda Moser as Leonore.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Love this opera. Of the versions I have:

Klemperer has plenty of gravitas, well recorded with a good cast. 
Klemperer live is an even better conducted performance with some different cast members. Whether you prefer Jurinac to Ludwig is a matter of taste. What is unquestionable is the power of Hotter's Pizzaro - a truly great performance. The recording sadly is not that good.
Karajan on EMI is a superbly conducted, exciting performance with two great leads in Vickers and Denersch. No-one in the cast lets the side down. Probably my favourite - - just listen to the BPO.
Abbado a sad disappointment apart from Kaufmann's outstanding Florestan. It's a bit light on its feet and sme lunatic has unaccountably changed the dialogue. Complete stupidity!
The Naxos version I got rid of - good but doesn't add anything.
The other version is Karajan live from Vienna - a rumbustious performance with mistakes and all but thrilling live theatre. Not a first choice but worth hearing.
Another one worth investigating is the version I got to know the opera with as a lad conducted by Friscay. D F-D a superb Pizarro and Rysanek a passionate Leonore.


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## Couac Addict (Oct 16, 2013)

Sadly, it's missing a 3rd Act where Marzelline's marriage to Jaquino self-destructs because she's a closet lesbian.


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## MAuer (Feb 6, 2011)

Took the bait, of course . . . _Fidelio_ is my favorite opera, and I currently have 14 recordings (including four of the 1805 Urfassung). When René Jacobs' recording of the original version is eventually released, I suspect it will be added to my collection. I definitely prefer more lyrical voices in the two leads, and after reading Jacobs' comments in his brief interview with _Opernwelt_, discovered I'm not alone. Of course, Jacobs' knowledge of music in general and opera in particular far exceeds mine, and he noted that the tenor who sang Florestan at the premiere (not sure if he meant 1805 or 1814) had a very high range and a light voice. If this was Giulio Radichi, the singer at the 1814 premiere, he sang Mozart's Tamino and roles by Rossini. Jacobs noted that the trend in the 20th century was to turn Beethoven into a proto-Wagnerian and Florestan into a proto-Heldentenor, and he insists both are wrong. Beethoven also owned the score to Ferdinando Paer's _Leonora_, which premiered in 1804 and was based on the same source (Bouilly) as Fidelio, and it seems pretty clear that he was influenced to some degree by Paer's opera. His Leonore, like Paer's title character, was written for a dramatic coloratura, and was sung at the premieres of the 1805, 1806, and 1814 versions by the same soprano, Anna Milder (Hauptmann). My favorite recordings of the 1814 final version are the Harnoncourt DVD with Camilla Nylund and Jonas Kaufmann, and audio recordings by Abbado (Stemme, Kaufmann) and Masur (Altmeyer, Jerusalem) -- though I love Jurinac's Leonore on the Knappertsbusch. Among the originals, I like nearly all of them. Bertrand de Billy's has Nylund as Leonore; Gardiner has Hillevi Martinpelto and Kim Begley in the leads; and Blomstedt (Moser and Richard Cassilly) has the complete dialogue. Ferdinand Leitner's live performance has too many cuts, and while Anton Dermota is a wonderful Florestan, Hilde Zadek's Leonore sounds too acidulous for my tastes.


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## jflatter (Mar 31, 2010)

I have a similar relationship with this opera as I do with Der fliegende Hollander. I respect the piece and despite trying to desperately, I just don't love it. I do wonder if it had been written by somebody of lesser stature whether it would have remained in the core rep.

However many people love it here so who am I to argue.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

MAuer said:


> Took the bait, of course . . . _Fidelio_ is my favorite opera, and I currently have 14 recordings (including four of the 1805 Urfassung). When René Jacobs' recording of the original version is eventually released, I suspect it will be added to my collection. I definitely prefer more lyrical voices in the two leads, and after reading Jacobs' comments in his brief interview with _Opernwelt_, discovered I'm not alone. Of course, Jacobs' knowledge of music in general and opera in particular far exceeds mine, and he noted that the tenor who sang Florestan at the premiere (not sure if he meant 1805 or 1814) had a very high range and a light voice. If this was Giulio Radichi, the singer at the 1814 premiere, he sang Mozart's Tamino and roles by Rossini. *Jacobs noted that the trend in the 20th century was to turn Beethoven into a proto-Wagnerian and Florestan into a proto-Heldentenor, and he insists both are wrong.*


I couldn't help rolling my eyes when I read the sentence I've highlighted above. "Wrong?" What does that mean? How can it possibly be _wrong_ for an operatic role to be sung by voices of differing weight and power, if those voices can all do justice to the part? Is there anything about the voice of, say, Jonas Kaufmann which would make it less appropriate or effective in portraying the character of Florestan than the voice of, say, Roberto Alagna, or that of Joseph Calleja? And why is the voice of even Jon Vickers too large for the music? Do you think Beethoven would have had him fired?

Jacobs clearly has an agenda here, and to me it just sounds like the typical old HIP dogmatism ("if that's the way it sounded at first performance it's the way we should make it sound now"). The implication that Beethoven wrote his music with one specific vocal weight in mind is absurd; there is simply nothing in the music he gives to Florestan to indicate a _tenore di grazia_, or to rule out a _tenore di forza_. It's perfectly fine to prefer lighter voices, but that is nothing more than a matter of taste. We really don't need to appeal to the so-called authority of musicians committed to a certain narrow ideology of performance practice to validate our preferences.

When Jacobs comes out with his "Leonore" we'll see how effective his casting choices are. But whoever he picks for Florestan, if the guy sings well and the music and drama are well-served, it won't be "wrong." Neither is Vickers.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

I have the Leitner and Gardiner Leonore. I like the Leitner very much but the dialog is not included. The Gardiner seems to be ruined, I think by having actors speak the dialog instead of the singers. 

I read that there really are two Leonore's. The first performance and then some time later (months, years?) a revision. Then many years later came Fidelio.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Woodduck said:


> I couldn't help rolling my eyes when I read the sentence I've highlighted above. "Wrong?" What does that mean? How can it possibly be _wrong_ for an operatic role to be sung by voices of differing weight and power, if those voices can all do justice to the part? Is there anything about the voice of, say, Jonas Kaufmann which would make it less appropriate or effective in portraying the character of Florestan than the voice of, say, Roberto Alagna, or that of Joseph Calleja? And why is the voice of even Jon Vickers too large for the music? Do you think Beethoven would have had him fired?
> 
> Jacobs clearly has an agenda here, and to me it just sounds like the typical old HIP dogmatism ("if that's the way it sounded at first performance it's the way we should make it sound now"). The implication that Beethoven wrote his music with one specific vocal weight in mind is absurd; there is simply nothing in the music he gives to Florestan to indicate a _tenore di grazia_, or to rule out a _tenore di forza_. It's perfectly fine to prefer lighter voices, but that is nothing more than a matter of taste. We really don't need to appeal to the so-called authority of musicians committed to a certain narrow ideology of performance practice to validate our preferences.
> 
> When Jacobs comes out with his "Leonore" we'll see how effective his casting choices are. But whoever he picks for Florestan, if the guy sings well and the music and drama are well-served, it won't be "wrong." Neither is Vickers.


Jacobs always has an agenda. Sometimes it works brilliantly as in his Figaro. Sometimes not so good as the Don Giovanni. But he is a musician who makes us think. Florestan can be sung by a lyric (see Haeflinger on Friscay set) or a heldentenor, a la Vickers. Of course, Beethoven might have wanted a Vickers voice but one wasn't available to him. The fact is that many of Beethoven's works were first performed by musicians, many of whom (especially the instrumentalists) were just talented amateurs. Would we wAnt this sort of HIP? I think not!

Interesting article on Jacobs from the NY Times
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/20/arts/music/rene-jacobss-harmonia-mundi-cds-and-dvds.html?_r=0


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## DiesIraeCX (Jul 21, 2014)

Thanks for all your posts! They are very much appreciated, very insightful. I ended up going with the Klemperer recording, can't go wrong with that.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

Wow! Just listened to clips of the Klemperer Fidelio and it is phenomenal. I just ordered a copy on the cheap and used, so got this cover with a 1995 remastering:









There was a cheaper one but it was a 1989 remastering and did not have near as nice of cover art.

Itullian: Thanks for giving me a nudge on this one in a different thread! 
Then DiesIraeVIX's choice made it so I had to check it out immediately. Once I heard the clips, I was hooked!

Now I still want to find a really good Leonore.

Wow, I sure am spending a lot of money on CDs! Well better that than leaving money behind when I die, eh? :lol:


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

Florestan said:


> Wow! Just listened to clips of the Klemperer Fidelio and it is phenomenal. I just ordered a copy on the cheap and used, so got this cover with a 1995 remastering:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


:tiphat:........................


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

I believe Klemperer will sit up alongside Bernstein as my favorites. Now of my collection, the following could be culled:

Sir Colin Davis
Halasz (NAXOS)
Fidelio in English


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

Having just listened to the Klemperer for the first time in a year or more, it is all that I remember of it, and more. I never cease to thrill at Vicker's "Gott!" entrance in act 2 and then the exultant "Ein Engel, Leonoren". Klemperer then builds it inexorably to the conclusion.


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

Becca said:


> Having just listened to the Klemperer for the first time in a year or more, it is all that I remember of it, and more. I never cease to thrill at Vicker's "Gott!" entrance in act 2 and then the exultant "Ein Engel, Leonoren". Klemperer then builds it inexorably to the conclusion.


Edit: One of the real marvels of this recording is the Wilhelm Pitz trained Philharmonia Choir


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

Florestan said:


> I believe Klemperer will sit up alongside Bernstein as my favorites. Now of my collection, the following could be culled:
> 
> Sir Colin Davis
> Halasz (NAXOS)
> Fidelio in English


The Davis was a big disappointment to me.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Becca said:


> Having just listened to the Klemperer for the first time in a year or more, it is all that I remember of it, and more. I never cease to thrill at Vicker's "Gott!" entrance in act 2 and then the exultant "Ein Engel, Leonoren". Klemperer then builds it inexorably to the conclusion.


For me Vickers _is_ Florestan. He elevates the role, and the opera as a whole, in an essential way, by suggesting the sort of man a rat like Pizzarro would want out of the way.


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## Albert7 (Nov 16, 2014)

Itullian said:


> The Davis was a big disappointment to me.


How was it disappointing to you?


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

Hey Wow! I just figured out that my Gardiner Leonore is NOT from my Complete Beethoven set of 87 discs. That is GREAT NEWS for me because I was getting ready to buy a Blomstedt Leonore last night and found a cheaper one that was put out by Brilliant Classics, which suggested to me that is could be in one of those complete Beethoven sets. So I pulled my set out and sure enough, the Leonore is Blomstedt. Now my search for a great Leonore is finished!









I'll be listening to it this evening as I have only listened to it once and while distracted at work.

BTW my Gardiner Leonore is in the DG complete Beethoven set. I had purchased my Bernstein Fidelio from that set and it is packaged with the Gardiner Leonore.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

There is a chapter (about 55 pages) on Beethoven's Leonore opera here (click link). I highly recommend reading this whole book and have a hard copy of my own. It is the book that really got me into Beethoven. I bought it for the Leonore chapter but the chapters on the Appassionat and Eroica are equally fascinating. I have this posted along with some other articles and links regarding Fidelio here under groups in the group titled Fidelio/Leonore Opera.

Burning disc 2 of the Blomstedt Leonore right now to play in the car next week.


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## MAuer (Feb 6, 2011)

Woodduck said:


> I couldn't help rolling my eyes when I read the sentence I've highlighted above. "Wrong?" What does that mean? How can it possibly be _wrong_ for an operatic role to be sung by voices of differing weight and power, if those voices can all do justice to the part? Is there anything about the voice of, say, Jonas Kaufmann which would make it less appropriate or effective in portraying the character of Florestan than the voice of, say, Roberto Alagna, or that of Joseph Calleja? And why is the voice of even Jon Vickers too large for the music? Do you think Beethoven would have had him fired?
> 
> Jacobs clearly has an agenda here, and to me it just sounds like the typical old HIP dogmatism ("if that's the way it sounded at first performance it's the way we should make it sound now"). The implication that Beethoven wrote his music with one specific vocal weight in mind is absurd; there is simply nothing in the music he gives to Florestan to indicate a _tenore di grazia_, or to rule out a _tenore di forza_. It's perfectly fine to prefer lighter voices, but that is nothing more than a matter of taste. We really don't need to appeal to the so-called authority of musicians committed to a certain narrow ideology of performance practice to validate our preferences.
> 
> When Jacobs comes out with his "Leonore" we'll see how effective his casting choices are. But whoever he picks for Florestan, if the guy sings well and the music and drama are well-served, it won't be "wrong." Neither is Vickers.


Woah, I sure lit a fire with that one. Jacobs did use the word "wrong," but I interpret that to mean historically incorrect. I happen to like recordings of Handel's operas with the castrato roles sung by tenors and baritones, which would undoubtedly send Jacobs into a tizzy. Preferences are neither "right" or "wrong," so if you like heavier voices in the two leads, so be it. And none of us needs to "validate" his or her preferences . . . something that has been mentioned in this forum a number of times in connection with other discussions.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

MAuer said:


> Woah, I sure lit a fire with that one. Jacobs did use the word "wrong," but I interpret that to mean historically incorrect. I happen to like recordings of Handel's operas with the castrato roles sung by tenors and baritones, which would undoubtedly send Jacobs into a tizzy. Preferences are neither "right" or "wrong," so if you like heavier voices in the two leads, so be it. And none of us needs to "validate" his or her preferences . . . something that has been mentioned in this forum a number of times in connection with other discussions.


I'm glad we agree that taste may take precedence over "historical correctness." This is just something I tend to get exercised about - this whole idea that it's even _possible_ to play music the way it was heard 200 years ago, much less desirable. Jacobs may be literally "historically correct" if he casts a light tenor as Florestan, but he's simply fantasizing if he thinks that that's what Beethoven wanted. If Beethoven had heard Jon Vickers he might very well have exclaimed, to his own music and in a proto-heldentenor voice, "Gott! Mein Florestan!"


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Woodduck said:


> I'm glad we agree that taste may take precedence over "historical correctness." This is just something I tend to get exercised about - this whole idea that it's even _possible_ to play music the way it was heard 200 years ago, much less desirable. Jacobs may be literally "historically correct" if he casts a light tenor as Florestan, but he's simply fantasizing if he thinks that that's what Beethoven wanted. If Beethoven had heard Jon Vickers he might very well have exclaimed, to his own music and in a proto-heldentenor voice, "Gott! Mein Florestan!"


Let's face it, if we were really HIP we would perform Beethoven's Violin Concerto with a Fantasie for fiddle upside down between movements!


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## mountmccabe (May 1, 2013)

I am still getting to know this opera so I am grateful for the discussion of the versions here. I am a Klemperer fan so I will be sure to give the EMI recording a good listen.

I just got a ticket to see Michael Tilson Thomas conduct the San Francisco Symphony a concert version of this with Nina Stemme, Brandon Jovanovich, Alan Held, and Luca Pisaroni. My first time hearing it live!


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

Here is a discography of Fidelio/Leonore at Wikipedia. It lists about three dozen Fidelio audio recordings, but only three recordings of the original Leonore (1805 version) and only one of the 1806 version. Since I have all three 1805s, I may as well get the 1806 too.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

Researched it and cannot resist, so this is my latest purchase, the 1806 Leonore.









Clips Here.

Good article telling the differences and the mixed up way Gardiner put his Leonore together: Link.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

Wow, this Blomstedt 1805 Leonore is very interesting. The finale of the last act is very different from that of the Fidelio we know. The 1805 finale has a character that reminds me somewhat of the Missa Solemnis--wonderful.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Florestan said:


> Wow, this Blomstedt 1805 Leonore is very interesting. The finale of the last act is very different from that of the Fidelio we know. The 1805 finale has a character that reminds me somewhat of the Missa Solemnis--wonderful.


Contemporary reviews of the first two versions may be of interest. From the AMZ Leipzig:

Vienna, mid-December 1805: ...The most peculiar of the musical products of the last month may have been the long-awaited opera by Beethoven: Fidelio, or Conjugal Love. It was performed for the first time on November 20th but received very coolly. I want to discuss this in more detail.

Through the cruel vengeance of his enemy, a man has unjustifiably been taken to a dungeon. He is languishing there and suffering cruel treatment. He is destined to be murdered so that his death will forever cover up the crime that has been committed against him, since details of it might otherwise be unearthed. However, his loving wife (Fidelio) has followed him into his prison as a prison guard by gaining the trust of the tyrant. Ultimately she is able to save her husband. The daughter of the prison warden falls in love with Fidelio and, by doing so, is the cause for a rather commonplace episode.

He who has followed the path of the development of Beethoven's otherwise undoubted talent with interest and calm objectivity had to hope for something quite different of this work than what was presented. Beethoven has often sacrificed the beautiful for the sake of the new and peculiar. Therefore, one should above all have expected peculiarity, novelty and a certain originality in this, his first theatrical product. But precisely these qualities are what are found the least.

If the entire work is viewed calmly and without prejudice, one has to find that it is extraordinary in neither its inventiveness nor its execution. The Overture consists of a very long, rambling Adagio, followed by a C-Major Allegro. It is by no means excellent and cannot stand any comparison with other instrumental works by Beethoven--for example, with his Overture to his ballet, Prometheus. The vocal pieces are not based on any new ideas and are, for the most part, too long. The text is constantly repeated. Finally, the mood is often completely wrong. For example, the G-Major duet in the third act expresses loud, wild jubilation rather than the quiet, melancholy, deep feeling appropriate to a situation in which the wedded pair have found each other again. Much better are a four-part canon in the first act and an effective discant aria in F-Major, where three obbligato horns and the bassoon form a pretty if sometimes overladen accompaniment. The choruses have little effect, and one of them, which describes the joy of the prisoners of enjoying fresh air, obviously turned out less than well.

Also, the presentation was not the best. Dem. Milder, in spite of her beautiful voice, does not have enough affect and life for the role of Fidelio, and Demmer was almost always flat. Due to all this, and probably partially due to the present conditions, the opera could only be performed three times...

Vienna, the 27th of April 1806: ...Beethoven has brought his opera Fidelio back to the stage with many changes and cuts. An entire act was lost in the process, but the work has gained by it and has also been better received.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

My first *Fidelio* was Scottish Opera at the Theatre Royal in Newcastle-upon-Tyne. Helga Dernesch was the Leonore and there was no doubt she was in a different class from every other singer on stage (I can't now remember who any of the others were). Her first entrance into the Act I canon was as a shaft of sunlight suddenly streaming onto the stage. I'll never forget it.

Consequently I went for the Karajan recording when I got it on LP, and I was not disappointed in his searingly dramatic version of the opera, not a single weak link in the cast. However when I came to buy the opera on CD, I bowed to popular opinion and went for the Klemperer. I was profoundly disappointed. I didn't find it anywhere near as thrilling as the Karajan recording. Vickers is common to both of course, but I prefer Dernesch to Ludwig, and also Keleman's bitingly villainous Pizzarro to Berry. So Karajan all the way for me.


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## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

GregMitchell said:


> My first *Fidelio* was Scottish Opera at the Theatre Royal in Newcastle-upon-Tyne. Helga Dernesch was the Leonore and there was no doubt she was in a different class from every other singer on stage (I can't now remember who any of the others were). Her first entrance into the Act I canon was as a shaft of sunlight suddenly streaming onto the stage. I'll never forget it.
> 
> Consequently I went for the Karajan recording when I got it on LP, and I was not disappointed in his searingly dramatic version of the opera, not a single weak link in the cast. However when I came to buy the opera on CD, I bowed to popular opinion and went for the Klemperer. I was profoundly disappointed. I didn't find it anywhere near as thrilling as the Karajan recording. Vickers is common to both of course, but I prefer Dernesch to Ludwig, and also Keleman's bitingly villainous Pizzarro to Berry. So Karajan all the way for me.












I agree with everything in this post.

The Klemperer has a reputation among _Fidelios_ which blinds the sun- but not for my money. The Karajan's more caressingly poignant with the orchestral contours and the principals sing more animatedly throughout- as Greg mentioned.

Don't get me wrong, I love Christa Ludwig, but we're talking Helga Dernesch in her prime where her dulcet voice is of goddess proportions.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

GregMitchell said:


> My first *Fidelio* was Scottish Opera at the Theatre Royal in Newcastle-upon-Tyne. Helga Dernesch was the Leonore and there was no doubt she was in a different class from every other singer on stage (I can't now remember who any of the others were). Her first entrance into the Act I canon was as a shaft of sunlight suddenly streaming onto the stage. I'll never forget it.
> 
> Consequently I went for the Karajan recording when I got it on LP, and I was not disappointed in his searingly dramatic version of the opera, not a single weak link in the cast. However when I came to buy the opera on CD, I bowed to popular opinion and went for the Klemperer. I was profoundly disappointed. I didn't find it anywhere near as thrilling as the Karajan recording. Vickers is common to both of course, but I prefer Dernesch to Ludwig, and also Keleman's bitingly villainous Pizzarro to Berry. So Karajan all the way for me.


It's hard for me to imagine being profoundly disappointed by Klemperer, but I guess I must hear the Karajan now. Does it, however, have the extremes of dynamic range or strange balances that sometimes mar K's opera productions?


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## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

Woodduck said:


> It's hard for me to imagine being profoundly disappointed by Klemperer, but I guess I must hear the Karajan now. Does it, however, have the extremes of dynamic range or strange balances that sometimes mar K's opera productions?


Nooooooooooooooooooooo.

It's _Don-Carlos_-and-_Tristan_ free.
_
;D_


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Marschallin Blair said:


> Nooooooooooooooooooooo.
> 
> It's _Don-Carlos_-and-_Tristan_ free.
> _
> ;D_


That's a relief.


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## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

Woodduck said:


> That's a relief.


Foregoing a Karajan engineering autopsy to begin with is better than an aesthetic.


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## DiesIraeCX (Jul 21, 2014)

A wonderful suggestion, GregMitchell and Marschallin. I'm enjoying the Karajan _Fidelio_ on Spotify right now. I knew it'd be good, overall, he's my favorite Beethoven interpreter. It doesn't hurt that I get to keep Vickers, too. 

It's fairly cheap on Amazon. I'm tempted, my birthday _is_ in a couple of days, after all! :devil:


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

DiesIraeVIX said:


> A wonderful suggestion, GregMitchell and Marschallin. I'm enjoying the Karajan _Fidelio_ on Spotify right now. I knew it'd be good, overall, he's my favorite Beethoven interpreter. It doesn't hurt that I get to keep Vickers, too.
> 
> It's fairly cheap on Amazon. I'm tempted, my birthday _is_ in a couple of days, after all! :devil:


Go for it. You know you're worth it.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Marschallin Blair said:


> I agree with everything in this post.
> 
> The Klemperer has a reputation among _Fidelios_ which blinds the sun- but not for my money. The Karajan's more caressingly poignant with the orchestral contours and the principals sing more animatedly throughout- as Greg mentioned.
> 
> Don't get me wrong, I love Christa Ludwig, but we're talking Helga Dernesch in her prime where her dulcet voice is of goddess proportions.


When the Karajan performance came out Klemperer was the height of fashion among the critics as how Beethoven should be conducted. His Fidelio was praised to the skies - it was heresy not to say it was the greatest recording. Hence Karajan's, though admired, didn't get its due. However, with the benefit of years, one can still admire Klemperer's version yet see how much more dramatic Karajan is. But also just see how lovely the canon quartet is in Karajan's recording. It's the one I take off the shelves most often, although at the moment I am coming to terms with his much different live 1960 performance. Did he conduct everything the same as charged? Not on this reckoning. Interesting that Walter Berry, a pretty unmenacing villain for Klemperer, is vastly more sinister with Karajan live.


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## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

DavidA said:


> When the Karajan performance came out Klemperer was the height of fashion among the critics as how Beethoven should be conducted. His Fidelio was praised to the skies - it was heresy not to say it was the greatest recording. Hence Karajan's, though admired, didn't get its due. However, with the benefit of years, one can still admire Klemperer's version yet see how much more dramatic Karajan is. But also just see how lovely the canon quartet is in Karajan's recording. It's the one I take off the shelves most often, although at the moment I am coming to terms with his much different live 1960 performance. Did he conduct everything the same as charged? Not on this reckoning. Interesting that Walter Berry, a pretty unmenacing villain for Klemperer, is vastly more sinister with Karajan live.


Oh God, oh God, oh God- Jesus am I blonde! _I never even mentioned Karajan's treatment of the quartet!!!!!!!!!!!!-_ Thanks for mentioning that, David. I really think that his treatment of it- and Dernesch's and Vicker's singing and harmonizing in it- is perhaps the most beautiful thing I've experienced in all of Beethoven. Its beyond sublime. It really is.

Thanks for putting the initial reception of the EMI Karajan_ Fidelio_ vis-à-vis the Klemperer in its historical context as well.


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## Sloe (May 9, 2014)

Albert7 said:


> I love this opera. Some people hate this opera and think that Beethoven couldn't do it but they are wrong.
> 
> Too bad Beethoven didn't compose more operas .


He had plans to compose an opera about Attila. I wonder how that opera would have been.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Just let me put in a word for Klemperer live too on Testament. The recording is pretty poor but it has to be heard for the Pizarro of Hans Hotter. A simply terrifying portrayals! The performance too is generally more dramatic than K's studio version.


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

Itullian said:


> I like my Fidelio with gravitas.
> My favorite recordings aren't to popular taste.
> *Karajan/Klemperer tied. Karajan more exciting, Klemperer more profound.*
> Furtwangler, Knappertsbusch
> ...


Karajan is great.
Klemperer will always be a classic.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

DavidA said:


> Just let me put in a word for Klemperer live too on Testament. The recording is pretty poor but it has to be heard for the Pizarro of Hans Hotter. A simply terrifying portrayals! The performance too is generally more dramatic than K's studio version.


That is one of the things I like about Bernstein's Fidelio: Hans Sotin is a great Pizarro, especially on the DVD. Maybe others don't see it, but then it is somewhat subjective.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

The Klemperer Fidelio is very good, but... I got as far as Abscheulicher and something then did not seem right. In my opinion, Gundula Janowitz is way better on Abscheulicher than Christa Ludwig. It may be the recording is not as good on the Klemperer, but regardless, Christa's voice seems covered or something, not that it is bad, but in comparison Gundula's voice is very clear. 

But I will finish listening to Klemperer and listen a few more times. It is a very good Fidelio, just I have a great bias for the Bernstein Janowitz.


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## GioCar (Oct 30, 2013)

My favourite. So full of light and tenderness. And with a great Leonore. I'm a bit surprised nobody has mentioned it yet.

I also have the Bernstein and the Abbado which, between the two, is the closest to the Fricsay.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

GioCar said:


> My favourite. So full of light and tenderness. And with a great Leonore. I'm a bit surprised nobody has mentioned it yet.
> 
> I also have the Bernstein and the Abbado which, between the two, is the closest to the Fricsay.


I did actually mention this is #12 where I said: "Another one worth investigating is the version I got to know the opera with as a lad conducted by Friscay. D F-D a superb Pizarro and Rysanek a passionate Leonore"
Far more engaging than the Abbado imo


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## GioCar (Oct 30, 2013)

DavidA said:


> I did actually mention this is #12 where I said: "Another one worth investigating is the version I got to know the opera with as a lad conducted by Friscay. D F-D a superb Pizarro and Rysanek a passionate Leonore"
> Far more engaging than the Abbado imo


Oh sorry for that 

edit: but there is a reason...I seached this thread with "Fricsay", but you wrote "Friscay"
Anyway my fault, I didn't pay attention enough to the previous posts.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

GioCar said:


> Oh sorry for that
> 
> edit: but there is a reason...I seached this thread with "Fricsay", but you wrote "Friscay"
> Anyway my fault, I didn't pay attention enough to the previous posts.


Oh no! I've been spelling it wrongly for the last 50 odd years! 

Thanks for the correction!


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

I had recently considered the Fricsay Fidelio and in fact have a highlights disc from it that is very good.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

Here is an excellent Fidelio, the only one I have heard that comes close to as good of a Leonore as does Gundula Janowitz:








Be aware that the spoken dialog parts are not in this one. It was done that way on purpose, but there is spoken dialog in the part leading up to the grave digging duet. All the singers in this Fidelio are great. Rene Pape is Rocco. Think I remember Rene from my Meistersinger DVD.


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## gardibolt (May 22, 2015)

The Soustrot set with Pamela Coburn is the only recording I know of of the 1806 Leonore, so like it or lump it. I like it.

The Gardiner Leonore is a weird amalgam of the 1805 and the 1806 versions, and neither fish nor fowl. Avoid it on historical grounds if you want to hear authentic Beethoven, but it's a decent performance of whatever it is.

The Blomstedt is to my mind the preferred version of the 1805, but it's missing a chunk. To hear the correct 1805 version, you need to track down the WoO 2b "Introduzione al Atto II" which was long believed to be for the play Tarpeja like the Triumphal March WoO 2a, but which has since the time of Blomstedt's recording been identified as the dismembered introduction to the second act of the 3-act 1805 version of Leonore; you need to insert it in Frankenstein-like before the second act. There are a handful of recordings of it out there. Since it's purely instrumental, there's not a big disruption of suddenly hearing foreign voices in the opera. Obviously, this is much easier to accomplish in digital form.

The Mackerras version of Fidelio includes a recitative for Don Fernando from the Dresden version of the opera that I don't believe is in any other recording. This recitative was cut from what we know as the final version of Fidelio. It's entirely unclear whether Beethoven changed his mind and reinserted it for that performance in Dresden, or whether somehow that cut was just missed in the version for Dresden and it was only there accidentally. But it's there to hear if you want to. Since it's just a recitative you may not be concerned, but it's Beethoven's handiwork if you collect these things obsessively like I do.

There are a number of variant versions of several numbers (including a bunch of different versions of Marzelline's aria), none of which to my knowledge have ever been recorded.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

Hey y'all Fidelio fans, what do you think of this one. Here are the clips.


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## anmhe (Feb 10, 2015)

Should Fidelio be categorized as an opera or a musical? I believe it's more of a musical.

Come at me, bros!


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

anmhe said:


> Should Fidelio be categorized as an opera or a musical? I believe it's more of a musical.
> 
> Come at me, bros!


To quote from my favourite musical. Moses supposes that roses are noses but Moses supposes erroneously! As is your belief here!!


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

anmhe said:


> Should Fidelio be categorized as an opera or a musical? I believe it's more of a musical.
> 
> Come at me, bros!


More correctly it's a _Singspiel_ as is *Die Zauberflote*.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

GregMitchell said:


> More correctly it's a _Singspiel_ as is *Die Zauberflote*.


Exactly. You sing, and then you spiel, and then you sing again, and then... Those Germans! They can say all that in one handy word.

The tradition of a play with musical numbers is probably ancient. Add dance and you have a Baroque masque. The alternation of speaking and singing runs through the French _opera comique,_ the operetta, and then the American musical. They all have different names but the idea is much the same.

Sing...spiel...sing...spiel...sing...spiel...sing...spiel...everybody sing...take your bows. :clap:


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

So which of these is better:










or


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## Don Fatale (Aug 31, 2009)

Anyone know of a recording with all the sing but none of the spiel?


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

Don Fatale said:


> Anyone know of a recording with all the sing but none of the spiel?


I do, and an excellent one too:









alternate cover:









CLIPS

From the Amazon Editorial Review: 


> Here we get only the music Beethoven composed with no dialogue at all; the text Leonore spoke is printed in the accompanying booklet.


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## gardibolt (May 22, 2015)

Hm, it's not all that much spiel, really. 

That Vienna Fidelio looks interesting; I like Christa Ludwig a lot, and I think she'd be great as Fidelio.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

gardibolt said:


> Hm, it's not all that much spiel, really.
> 
> That Vienna Fidelio looks interesting; I like Christa Ludwig a lot, and I think she'd be great as Fidelio.


I ordered it. Probably as much for Janowitz as for Ludwig. And because it is a live performance from 1962.
Here are a couple reviews:

http://www.musicalcriticism.com/recordings/cd-karajan-fidelio-0608.shtml

http://www.classicstoday.com/review/rambunctious-fidelio-karajan-live-1962/


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## gardibolt (May 22, 2015)

It does sound interesting--if not exactly the tidiest performance ever. I wonder why it's not included in the Karajan Opera Recordings box??

Reading that review reminded me that I do have Ludwig's Fidelio with Klemperer, which is indeed good.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

gardibolt said:


> Hm, it's not all that much spiel, really.
> 
> That Vienna Fidelio looks interesting; I like Christa Ludwig a lot, and I think she'd be great as Fidelio.


I have this performance. It is as far away from his studio performance as possible really. A rumbustious performance (Rocco's Gold Aria is cut) with lots of slips but thrilling all the same. There is quite a bit of controversy about just who the Florestan is. The box says Vickers but the Vickers family has denied this.

Look at the reviews on Amazon:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/...4837&ref_=sr_1_3_twi_2&sr=8-3#customerReviews


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

DavidA said:


> There is quite a bit of controversy about just who the Florestan is. The box says Vickers but the Vickers family has denied this.


The family should know, but the booklet explains as quoted in my first link,


> Somewhat peculiarly, as if to prepare the listener for disappointment, Gottfried Kraus' booklet notes declare that tenor Jon Vickers 'was evidently indisposed at the present performance, thereby lessening the impact of his aria at the start of Act Two'. Yet, what may be lacking in terms of sheer force (the end of Florestan's 'In des Lebens Frühlingstagen' is something of an anticlimax) is replaced by restless dramatic fervour and handsome musical expression. Ironically, Vickers' alleged condition brings him closer to that of his character (who has been wasting away in a prison cell for two years). This heightened level of verisimilitude, though not ideal, is employed effectively by Vickers during the rest of Act II in what is, ultimately, a persuasive performance.


Second link says, "Perhaps he was indisposed, singing through a cold?"

Also, another link (http://www.classicalcdreview.com/see.html) says,


> A major release in DGG's Karajan discography is the never before issued performance of Fidelio recorded at the Vienna State Opera May 25, 1962. ... Karajan made a commercial recording of the opera in 1971 in Berlin featuring Jon Vickers and Helga Dernesch, and two other live recordings are available.


So it looks like there are four Karajan recordings available. I understand Helga Dernesch is wonderful and am tempted to get that one too, but I have so many Fidelios already (8 DVDs, and as many CD sets).


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

Let me add that the Meijer/Domingo Fidelio does have the spiel, but only in the part before the grave digging duet. I think that part could not be removed because it was with some background music. The other thing is that the tracks are ordered so it begins with the Leonore #2 overture. At the very end are the Leonore #1 and #3 overtures and the Fidelio overture. All in all a WONDERFUL set in my opinion. I have it as it is on the discs and a second set of mp3s that I Frankensteined by adding in all the spiel tracks pulled from the Bernstein Fidelio and with the Fidelio overture up front.










This set is worth it for the wonderful voice of Waltraud Meier alone, and Placido Domingo ia a bonus. There are other good singers on it too.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Florestan said:


> The family should know, but the booklet explains as quoted in my first link,
> 
> Second link says, "Perhaps he was indisposed, singing through a cold?"
> 
> ...


The Fidelio Karajan recorded commercially for EMI with Denersch and Vickers is imo the best available all round.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

Don Fatale said:


> Anyone know of a recording with all the sing but none of the spiel?


Well, now they have a DVD like that, but beware, it is different.


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## mountmccabe (May 1, 2013)

I quite like that production. I wouldn't want it to be my only _Fidelio_, but it's amazing on a number of fronts.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

mountmccabe said:


> I quite like that production. I wouldn't want it to be my only _Fidelio_, but it's amazing on a number of fronts.


I so much want to get it but then I saw how in the end Florestan drops dead and I thought that ruins it!


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

Here is something very different: (CLIPS)


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Just listening to Fidelio from the Met. Sounds pretty awful. The Florestan is dreadfully thin of voice. Why should anyone pay to hear it?


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## Sloe (May 9, 2014)

Florestan said:


> I so much want to get it but then I saw how in the end Florestan drops dead and I thought that ruins it!


Like there are not enough operas were people dies in the end.


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## Bill H. (Dec 23, 2010)

DavidA said:


> Just listening to Fidelio from the Met. Sounds pretty awful. The Florestan is dreadfully thin of voice. Why should anyone pay to hear it?


The voices on the broadcast seem more "lyrical", and less urgent sounding than the classic Met performances from the 1940s I've been listening to of late. The Met Orchestra sounds great, of course.

I just keep thinking that the message of this opera is an important one today, but it gets lost in the cacophony of everything else.


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## gellio (Nov 7, 2013)

My favorites are hands down the Bernstein (1978) and Karajan (1970). Both are conducting with such energy and passion, and both are very well sung and well sounding. The Klemperer, IMO, is too slowly conducted and lacks forward momentum --- it's just very very very (add 1000 very's here) dull to me. What moves me more than anything about Beethoven's music is the passion and drive, it's thrilling- it's not there with Klemperer. Will have to maybe check out the Solti.


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## gellio (Nov 7, 2013)

Florestan said:


> So which of these is better:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The first one. Easily.


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## gellio (Nov 7, 2013)

DavidA said:


> When the Karajan performance came out Klemperer was the height of fashion among the critics as how Beethoven should be conducted. His Fidelio was praised to the skies - it was heresy not to say it was the greatest recording. Hence Karajan's, though admired, didn't get its due. However, with the benefit of years, one can still admire Klemperer's version yet see how much more dramatic Karajan is. But also just see how lovely the canon quartet is in Karajan's recording. It's the one I take off the shelves most often, although at the moment I am coming to terms with his much different live 1960 performance. Did he conduct everything the same as charged? Not on this reckoning. Interesting that Walter Berry, a pretty unmenacing villain for Klemperer, is vastly more sinister with Karajan live.


Well said. Yes, they managed, at one time to make even Beethoven uninspiring, dull and boring.

Yes, yes, yes..the Karajan quartet - a thing of glorious breathtaking beauty.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

gellio said:


> The first one. Easily.


I have the second one. Got it for Janowitz as Marzelline vs my Bernstein set where she plays Leonore.


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## gellio (Nov 7, 2013)

I've been going back and forth with the Bernstein, Karajan and Klemperer Fidelio's. What Karajan does in the opening bars of the Canon Quartett is miraculous. That IS Beethoven. So heartfelt, so passionate, such unfulfilled longing. I really would have thought Klemperer would have excelled here, but he misses the mark completely, IMO. Both the Karajan and Bernstein are magnificent. The Klemperer a failure on all levels but singing. IMO. He misses the mark at nearly every turn, while Karajan nails it. Listen to Klemperer's Welch Ein Augenblick - so lifeless and lacking in drama and forward momentum. Time to get rid of Klemperer once and for all.

That's my problem with opera sometimes. People flock to what critics say, when Klemperer conducted Beethoven all wrong. It's the same with the idiot who called Karajan's Ring recording a chamber approach. It spread like wildfire with no basis.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

gellio said:


> I've been going back and forth with the Bernstein, Karajan and Klemperer Fidelio's. What Karajan does in the opening bars of the Canon Quartett is miraculous. That IS Beethoven. So heartfelt, so passionate, such unfulfilled longing. I really would have thought Klemperer would have excelled here, but he misses the mark completely, IMO. Both the Karajan and Bernstein are magnificent. The Klemperer a failure on all levels but singing. IMO. He misses the mark at nearly every turn, while Karajan nails it. Listen to Klemperer's Welch Ein Augenblick - so lifeless and lacking in drama and forward momentum. Time to get rid of Klemperer once and for all.
> 
> That's my problem with opera sometimes. People flock to what critics say, when Klemperer conducted Beethoven all wrong. It's the same with the idiot who called Karajan's Ring recording a chamber approach. It spread like wildfire with no basis.


Good reading, I do miss the final verdict on Bernstein, I mean, if you can choose only one?


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

My only issue with Bernstein (and it is my favorite Fidelio) is he includes the overture before the finale. Beethoven wanted the finale o start within several seconds of the end of Florestan and Leonore's duet. I ALWAYS delete that overture from my files.


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## gardibolt (May 22, 2015)

Yeah, I'm not sure where that habit of playing the Leonore Overture #3 to break up the action came from. I guess the opera runs a little short (especially in the 2nd Act) if you don't, but it does interrupt the drama at a critical moment.


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## Bill H. (Dec 23, 2010)

Of course nowadays with CD programming you can always add in the Leonore Three where you want it, or leave it out altogether. Heck, you could even do a mix Fidelio and insert Leonore Two at the beginning, since it's a much heftier work than the Fidelio Overture.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

gardibolt said:


> Yeah, I'm not sure where that habit of playing the Leonore Overture #3 to break up the action came from. I guess the opera runs a little short (especially in the 2nd Act) if you don't, but it does interrupt the drama at a critical moment.


I read that Mahler started the trend, and it was very convenient for the major scene change that would be hard to do in a few seconds. I do have a video performance where they do not have the overture and the scene change involves mainly a curtain being raised to reveal the new scene.

It certainly is much more pleasing to go from the duet to a few seconds of total silence then break out with the joyful finale.

With Bernstein there is a problem in deleting the overture because he messed with the notes either of the end of the duet or beginning of the finale (can't remember which) to blend the overture in.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

Bill H. said:


> Of course nowadays with CD programming you can always add in the Leonore Three where you want it, or leave it out altogether. Heck, you could even do a mix Fidelio and insert Leonore Two at the beginning, since it's a much heftier work than the Fidelio Overture.


Very true. I have the Domingo/Meier Barenboim set which does not have the spiel parts except where embedded in a part (graveyard duet and the climax scene in dungeon) but conveniently the dialog tracks from the Bernstein set can be inserted with a bit of track renumbering, but why bother when there are many sets already with the dialog? Some might say that is weird to have different people do the dialog vs the singing, but I believe there is a set purposefully done that way. Also I have a film Fidelio where actors were filmed in lip sync to real singers, which is not hard to do as any film version opera is done that way, but normally with the same persons doing the singing and acting as in the Abbado La Cenerentola for example.


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## gellio (Nov 7, 2013)

Florestan said:


> Researched it and cannot resist, so this is my latest purchase, the 1806 Leonore.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I just ordered this. It's arriving tomorrow.


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## gellio (Nov 7, 2013)

DavidA said:


> Just let me put in a word for Klemperer live too on Testament. The recording is pretty poor but it has to be heard for the Pizarro of Hans Hotter. A simply terrifying portrayals! The performance too is generally more dramatic than K's studio version.


A butterfly flying in a windless greenhouse is more dramatic than Klemperer's studio recording of Fidelio.


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## gellio (Nov 7, 2013)

Florestan said:


> I read that Mahler started the trend, and it was very convenient for the major scene change that would be hard to do in a few seconds. I do have a video performance where they do not have the overture and the scene change involves mainly a curtain being raised to reveal the new scene.
> 
> It certainly is much more pleasing to go from the duet to a few seconds of total silence then break out with the joyful finale.
> 
> With Bernstein there is a problem in deleting the overture because he messed with the notes either of the end of the duet or beginning of the finale (can't remember which) to blend the overture in.


Since Bernstein included Leonore 3 in his recording, I moved it to the beginning of Act 2 as sort of a entr-acte.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

gellio said:


> I just ordered this. It's arriving tomorrow.


That is THE best Leonore recording out there. Enjoy!

EDIT: My mistake. I didn't look closely at the cover. That is the best 1806 Leonore Recording. However, the best 1805 is Blomstedt and it is one you must have:









alternate cover:









Or this which comes with 4 disks and both Leonore and Fidelio:


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## gellio (Nov 7, 2013)

I have the Blomstedt. It's an enjoyable performance, but a bit dramatically lacking IMO. Much like the Klemperer, but not as much, Beethoven's power, drama and passion is smoothed over a bit. Klemperer is unlistenable to me for those reasons. I'm interested to hear the Soustrot.

So far, of the two Leonore's I have, I prefer Gardiner much much more than Blomstedt. His choice of narration was, to be frank, stupid, but I don't even bother with the narration. Musically, the passion and power of Beethoven, and the dramatic drive, is present. Much more so than Blomstedt.

I can't wait to listen to the Soustrot. I'm hoping that a conductor and orchestra that specialize in Beethoven, will do his music justice, unlike Klemperer.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

gellio said:


> I have the Blomstedt. It's an enjoyable performance, but a bit dramatically lacking IMO. Much like the Klemperer, but not as much, Beethoven's power, drama and passion is smoothed over a bit. Klemperer is unlistenable to me for those reasons. I'm interested to hear the Soustrot.
> 
> So far, of the two Leonore's I have, I prefer Gardiner much much more than Blomstedt. His choice of narration was, to be frank, stupid, but I don't even bother with the narration. Musically, the passion and power of Beethoven, and the dramatic drive, is present. Much more so than Blomstedt.
> 
> I can't wait to listen to the Soustrot. I'm hoping that a conductor and orchestra that specialize in Beethoven, will do his music justice, unlike Klemperer.


I also have Leitner for 1805 and it is pretty good though the sound quality is somewhat boxy.

I think you will like Soustrot. The sound quality is pretty good too.

But Gardiner does not do 1805 or 1806. Rather he does an amalgamation of the two and possibly some of the 1814. So it is a mixed up (mess?) or just a mixed bag.


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## gellio (Nov 7, 2013)

Florestan said:


> But Gardiner does not do 1805 or 1806. Rather he does an amalgamation of the two and possibly some of the 1814. So it is a mixed up (mess?) or just a mixed bag.


I wouldn't say it's a mixed up mess or a mixed bag. Yes, it is said to be the 1805, but it takes elements from all three versions, I think. I think it is absolutely fantastic. I never gave Gardiner any thought until I bought his Beethoven Symphony Cycle and was completely blown away. He is an excellent Beethoven conductor IMO. I listen to his Leonore all the time. The orchestra sounds great...and his conducting just brings the work alive. Gardiner is my hero when it comes to Beethoven. I love his Piano Concerto Cycle as well.

Beethoven is my favorite composer and when I think of his works the first thing I think of is passion. I like to say Beethoven was the "original biographical rock star" when conducted right. You can sense his pain, heartache, loss, torment, and his unfulfillable longing. At least I can. He puts it all out there. Gardiner captures him perfectly. I think Karajan is pretty darn great with Beethoven, too. "Ha! Welch ein Augenblick" under Gardiner may be the greatest rock song ever written.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

gellio said:


> I have the Blomstedt. It's an enjoyable performance, but a bit dramatically lacking IMO. Much like the Klemperer, but not as much, Beethoven's power, drama and passion is smoothed over a bit. Klemperer is unlistenable to me for those reasons. I'm interested to hear the Soustrot.
> 
> So far, of the two Leonore's I have, I prefer Gardiner much much more than Blomstedt. His choice of narration was, to be frank, stupid, but I don't even bother with the narration. Musically, the passion and power of Beethoven, and the dramatic drive, is present. Much more so than Blomstedt.
> 
> I can't wait to listen to the Soustrot. I'm hoping that a conductor and orchestra that specialize in Beethoven, will do his music justice, unlike Klemperer.


Please do let us know how you much you are liking it, ( or not)


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## gellio (Nov 7, 2013)

Pugg said:


> Please do let us know how you much you are liking it, ( or not)


Will do. Obsessed with this opera lately. I just don't know if there is anything better in this world than Beethoven.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

gellio said:


> Will do. Obsessed with this opera lately. I just don't know if there is anything better in this world than Beethoven.


I gartered that much and you are speaking so passionate about it, always makes me want to buy things .
I am just like FLorestan.


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## gellio (Nov 7, 2013)

Pugg said:


> I gartered that much and you are speaking so passionate about it, always makes me want to buy things .
> I am just like FLorestan.


I'm just like you and Florestan. I get obsessed and start buying, buying, buying. I couldn't imagine life without Mozart or Beethoven, much less all the other countless composers and pieces I love. I really am so thankful that I have an appreciation for classical music. I really don't understand those who don't, but my friends can't understand why I'm always listening to classical and not today's pop hits...so to each his own, but I'm glad I have my own.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

gellio said:


> I'm just like you and Florestan. I get obsessed and start buying, buying, buying. I couldn't imagine life without Mozart or Beethoven, much less all the other countless composers and pieces I love. I really am so thankful that I have an appreciation for classical music. I really don't understand those who don't, but my friends can't understand why I'm always listening to classical and not today's pop hits...so to each his own, but I'm glad I have my own.


Stand firm on that one, you are never alone with your music.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

Fidelio was my first opera on CD and DVD. I never thought I would get into opera (apart from some superficial attendance in the 1980s more to get dates than anything else  ). I would listen to Fidelio because it was Beethoven and Beethoven was my obsession at the time. Then one day I thought just one DVD, Fidelio, gotta do it. And boom! Three years later I have about 100 opera DVDs (11 different Fidelio) and way more opera CDs. I burned out on Fidelio after about my 20th on CD and then recently got going again and now have 23 counting the Toscanini set I just ordered a couple hours ago.


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## gellio (Nov 7, 2013)

Florestan said:


> Fidelio was my first opera on CD and DVD. I never thought I would get into opera (apart from some superficial attendance in the 1980s more to get dates than anything else  ). I would listen to Fidelio because it was Beethoven and Beethoven was my obsession at the time. Then one day I thought just one DVD, Fidelio, gotta do it. And boom! Three years later I have about 100 opera DVDs (11 different Fidelio) and way more opera CDs. I burned out on Fidelio after about my 20th on CD and then recently got going again and now have 23 counting the Toscanini set I just ordered a couple hours ago.


You're worse than I, LOL.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Just tio mention Karajan's 1962 Vienna recording live. The live performance is rumbustious and tremendously dramatic btw with lots of imperfections. A sign how different HvK was in the theatre than in the studio. Interestingly Ludwig is far more dramatic in this hell for leather performance than in the studio with Klemperer. Whether the tenor in 1962 is Vickers is a matter which has been disputed. His son denies it is his father. - see the Amazon review of the DG release. But all the programmes indicate that it is. However listening to it again (as a layman not an expert) it is difficult to believe it really is Vickers.
So interesting though not a first choice by any means.


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## gellio (Nov 7, 2013)

DavidA said:


> Just tio mention Karajan's 1962 Vienna recording live. The live performance is rumbustious and tremendously dramatic btw with lots of imperfections. A sign how different HvK was in the theatre than in the studio. Interestingly Ludwig is far more dramatic in this hell for leather performance than in the studio with Klemperer. Whether the tenor in 1962 is Vickers is a matter which has been disputed. His son denies it is his father. - see the Amazon review of the DG release. But all the programmes indicate that it is. However listening to it again (as a layman not an expert) it is difficult to believe it really is Vickers.
> So interesting though not a first choice by any means.


That's cool. I listened to snippets of it online and the sound quality isn't up to scruff for me. The Maazel is fierce. I still love Karajan's studio the best, followed by Bernstein and Gardiner. Tempted to get the Bohm.


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## Reichstag aus LICHT (Oct 25, 2010)

The Michael Halász recording on Naxos is pretty darned good if you ask me. Not necessarily my favourite (that'd probably be Bernstein), but it's an excellent performance nonetheless.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Reichstag aus LICHT said:


> The Michael Halász recording on Naxos is pretty darned good if you ask me. Not necessarily my favourite (that'd probably be Bernstein), but it's an excellent performance nonetheless.


Agreed, Gösta WInbergh makes a very decent Florestan.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

Pugg said:


> Agreed, Gösta WInbergh makes a very decent Florestan.


I haven't listened to that one in a long time. In fact, forgot I owned it because I sold it when I got my 87 CD Beethoven Set which has it in it. So it is in a different folder. Ha! That means I have 24 Fidelios on CD, not 23.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

One of the finest Fidelio performances ever was the 2009 Proms. Good write-up here. Big names including Tomlinson and Waltraud Meier. Instead of the dialog, Waltraud read the story as a narrative at various points in the opera, explaining the whole opera. The singing is wonderful throughout! It was online as a video and I watched it but cannot find it any more but for this one part:


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Florestan said:


> One of the finest Fidelio performances ever was the 2009 Proms. Good write-up here. Big names including Tomlinson and Waltraud Meier. Instead of the dialog, Waltraud read the story as a narrative at various points in the opera, explaining the whole opera. The singing is wonderful throughout! It was online as a video and I watched it but cannot find it any more but for this one part:


I remember that. For me the spoken dialogue ruined the performance as it was simply awful


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

DavidA said:


> I remember that. For me the spoken dialogue ruined the performance as it was simply awful


Well, it wasn't spoken dialog, but rather narration of the story with background information.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Florestan said:


> Well, it wasn't spoken dialog, but rather narration of the story with background information.


it was simply awful PC stuff


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

DavidA said:


> it was simply awful PC stuff


In what way was it PC? It was simply a synopsis of the opera told first person by Leonore. Where do you get PC out of that? While I do prefer the opera complete with the original dialog and without the added Leonore overture before the finale, this was a nice way to present the story. No matter, I have the Meier/Domingo on CD which is without either the narration or the dialog, but still a wonderful recording.


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## gellio (Nov 7, 2013)

Florestan said:


> In what way was it PC? It was simply a synopsis of the opera told first person by Leonore. Where do you get PC out of that? While I do prefer the opera complete with the original dialog and without the added Leonore overture before the finale, this was a nice way to present the story. No matter, I have the Meier/Domingo on CD which is without either the narration or the dialog, but still a wonderful recording.


I prefer the opera without the dialogue. Gets too tedious, especially when one doesn't speak German. Well, I speak conversational, but understanding things in poetry and song is more challenging.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Pugg said:


> Agreed, Gösta WInbergh makes a very decent Florestan.


I did enjoy this set last night, remembers me that smaller labels bringing out some very good stuff.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

gellio said:


> I prefer the opera without the dialogue. Gets too tedious, especially when one doesn't speak German. Well, I speak conversational, but understanding things in poetry and song is more challenging.


When I first watched this opera on DVD, the discussion in the dialog was essential for understanding the opera. While I don't understand German, I pretty much know what is going on, not the exact words, but the gist of it, so the dialog helps me keep my place. Additionally, much of the dialog expresses emotions that come through in the recording, so it is as much a beloved part of the opera as the musical parts. I would not want to be without the dialog for long, but tolerate being without it for the Meier/Domingo set. The only way to get Waltraud Meier as Fidelio and have dialog is on DVD.


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## gellio (Nov 7, 2013)

Florestan said:


> When I first watched this opera on DVD, the discussion in the dialog was essential for understanding the opera. While I don't understand German, I pretty much know what is going on, not the exact words, but the gist of it, so the dialog helps me keep my place. Additionally, much of the dialog expresses emotions that come through in the recording, so it is as much a beloved part of the opera as the musical parts. I would not want to be without the dialog for long, but tolerate being without it for the Meier/Domingo set. The only way to get Waltraud Meier as Fidelio and have dialog is on DVD.


I can appreciate that. Yes, I do have dialogue and recitative in until I know the work, then I delete it.


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## gellio (Nov 7, 2013)

Florestan said:


> When I first watched this opera on DVD, the discussion in the dialog was essential for understanding the opera. While I don't understand German, I pretty much know what is going on, not the exact words, but the gist of it, so the dialog helps me keep my place. Additionally, much of the dialog expresses emotions that come through in the recording, so it is as much a beloved part of the opera as the musical parts. I would not want to be without the dialog for long, but tolerate being without it for the Meier/Domingo set. The only way to get Waltraud Meier as Fidelio and have dialog is on DVD.


I can appreciate that. Yes, I do have dialogue and recitative in until I know the work, then I delete it.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

Gellio. This one has an excellent Ha! welch ein Augenblick! Am listening right now.


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## gellio (Nov 7, 2013)

Florestan said:


> Gellio. This one has an excellent Ha! welch ein Augenblick! Am listening right now.


I have that one and it is quite good.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

DavidA said:


> Karajan on EMI is a superbly conducted, exciting performance with two great leads in Vickers and Denersch. No-one in the cast lets the side down. Probably my favourite - - just listen to the BPO.





DavidA said:


> The Fidelio Karajan recorded commercially for EMI with Denersch and Vickers is imo the best available all round.


Just gave it a listen and it is definitely an awesome recording!


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

Here is an obscure Fidelio that is very hard to find:









If the above is an LP, there does appear to be a CD:


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## SenaJurinac (Nov 29, 2017)

This is a great concert performance from Rome with Sir Antonio Pappano conducting:


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## SenaJurinac (Nov 29, 2017)

And 4 other Fidelio performances - Vienna (1978), Zurich (2004), Milan (2014) and Salzburg (2015).

http://klassikundopern.web.tv/video/fidelio-oper-beethoven-kollo-janowitz-popp-bernstein-wien-1978__6lwz4y5mpdi

http://klassikundopern.web.tv/video/fidelio-oper-beethoven-nylund-kaufmann-harnoncourt-zurich-2004__loajd0lz7jm

http://klassikundopern.web.tv/video/fidelio-oper-beethoven-vogt-kampe-barenboim-milano-2014__e4gqrl2nx6u

http://klassikundopern.web.tv/video/fidelio-oper-beethoven-kaufmann-pieczonka-welsermost-salzburg-2015__wznrknvbx0o

Does anyone know if the legendary Fidelio from reopening of Vienna State Opera (after it had been destroyed with bombs in the WW II) can be found anywhere in the Net? Either as a sound or video recording.

FIDELIO
NEUINSZENIERUNG
GALAPREMIERE
OPERNFEST 1955, ANLÄSSLICH DER WIEDERERÖFFNUNG

BESETZUNG | 05.11.1955

DIRIGENT	Karl Böhm
INSZENIERUNG	Heinz Tietjen
BÜHNENBILDER	Clemens Holzmeister
KOSTÜME	Erni Kniepert
EINSTUDIERUNG DER CHÖRE	Richard Rossmayer
Florestan	Anton Dermota
Leonore	Martha Mödl
Don Fernando	Karl Kamann
Don Pizarro	Paul Schöffler
Rocco	Ludwig Weber
Marzelline	Irmgard Seefried
Jaquino	Waldemar Kmentt
Erster Gefangener	Karl Terkal
Zweiter Gefangener	Alfred Jerger


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

Went through my 24 Fidelios (not counting Leonore and one Fidelio that is in the mail) and decided to add to my MP3 player 

Haitink with Jessye Norman

Mackerras with Gabriela Benackova

And Barenboim with Waltraud Meier and Placido Domingo.

These in addition to Bohm with Behrens and Bernstein with Janowitz which were already on the player.


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## mountmccabe (May 1, 2013)

This weekend I am seeing a recital with Simon O'Neill. He is singing Strauss, Wagner, and Beethoven. In addition to An die ferne Gelibte he is singing a piece from a Beethoven opera. It is credited on the website (and in the playbill) like this:



> "Gott! welch dunkel hier" from Leonore (1805)


What are the differences, if any, in this particular aria between the versions from _Leonore_ and _Fidelio_?


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## gellio (Nov 7, 2013)

My favorite, hands down, is Karajan's 1st.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

If you look on the internet there are some unbelievably daft productions of Fidelio, some bearing no resemblance to Beethoven. 

One comment on such: 'Whoever designed this must have had their brains removed before hand. We really must admire such dedication to art.﻿'


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## Sloe (May 9, 2014)

Aernhstnwrtnrtnjrjrwyj


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Sloe said:


> Aernhstnwrtnrtnjrjrwyj


Not sure if it's shouting or cursing, but funny it is.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

Oh wow! Awesome. An 1806 Leonore performance on You Tube:


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## SenaJurinac (Nov 29, 2017)

*1955 Fidelio movie*

Anyone familiar with this beautiful 1955 Austrian filming of Fidelio, directed by Walter Felsenstein? In the IMDB is wrongly listed as made in 1956. With Richard Holm as Florestan and Claude Nollier as Leonore / Fidelio.

IMDB: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0211369/fullcredits?ref_=tt_ov_st_sm

Video: http://ingutesdeutsch.web.tv/video/fidelio-richard-holm-claude-nollier-1955__ln6mrm9qoag


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## Star (May 27, 2017)

Fidelio is one of the great creations of a genius. When well performed it is totally riveting - catches you by the throat


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

SenaJurinac said:


> Anyone familiar with this beautiful 1955 Austrian filming of Fidelio, directed by Walter Felsenstein? In the IMDB is wrongly listed as made in 1956. With Richard Holm as Florestan and Claude Nollier as Leonore / Fidelio.
> 
> IMDB: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0211369/fullcredits?ref_=tt_ov_st_sm
> 
> ...


I do have it and it is a wonderful production. Much better picture quality on DVD and I have English subtitles. This is the set I have:


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## gellio (Nov 7, 2013)

Woodduck said:


> When Jacobs comes out with his "Leonore" we'll see how effective his casting choices are. But whoever he picks for Florestan, if the guy sings well and the music and drama are well-served, it won't be "wrong." Neither is Vickers.


Is there any word on this? It is on YouTube and I ripped it to mp3 but the quality isn't the best. I am really hoping Harmonia Mundi will release this.


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## gellio (Nov 7, 2013)

Jacobs Leonore coming out in a few days in Europe - end of November in US.


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

Star said:


> Fidelio is one of the great creations of a genius. When well performed it is totally riveting - catches you by the throat


Are you listening via headphones on a swivel chair?

(It sounds like you are getting the cord caught round your neck!)

N.


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## SenaJurinac (Nov 29, 2017)

Many are not aware of this Klemperer's Fidelio:


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## Handelian (Nov 18, 2020)

SenaJurinac said:


> Many are not aware of this Klemperer's Fidelio:


Yes I have it. The sound is poor. Still can't get on with Klemperer's undramatic way with this opera. But Hotter is fantastic


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

The problem with Fidelio is that the 'top choice' on CD is problematic, to say the least.

The Klemperer is a recording that is worth having in a collection (unless you only want one choice). Ludwig and Vickers are superb (even though I would prefer a soprano Leonore). The distinctive quality of the opera is that the first half is quite different from the second act. Is it a Singspiel or a dramatic opera? Or both? Should it be performed in a light, Mozartian way or with a more Germanic, serious tone? Klemperer's version takes the latter mode to an extreme, it's fine if that's your view of the opera. One of the recordings that is greatly underrated is the Fricsay, which takes the former approach.

For those who would like a balance between these two extremes, there are two recordings that stand out IMO. The Bernstein, that is very strongly cast and nicely balances a focus on the music and the drama of the work and the Karajan which has a strong cast and is equally dramatic. I would suggest that most opera fans would want the Klemperer, Fricsay, Bernstein AND the Karajan, unless they really aren't keen on the opera or don't like either the light or the heavy approaches to the score.

N.


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

Klemperer, Karajan, Bernstein,Furtwangler
for me.


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

Itullian said:


> Klemperer, Karajan, Bernstein,Furtwangler
> for me.


I have the Furtwaengler too...

N.


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