# Johann Jakob Froberger (1616 - 1667)



## Taggart

Froberger is seen both as a creator of the dance suite and as the basic influence on the German high Baroque style of the early eighteenth century. His ultimate claim to greatness rests primarily on his capacity to convey to us the intense emotions that he was able to express in a few bars lasting but a moment or two.

He was born in Stuttgart where his father was court Kapellmeister. In 1634, the family moved to Vienna and Johan became a singer in the imperial chapel. In 1637 after his father's death, Johan became court organist in Vienna. In the same year, he was granted a leave and a stipend to go to Rome to study under Frescobaldi. He spent three years in Rome before returning to Vienna. In 1645, he was off on his travels again going to Rome to study with Athanasius Kircher. On his return to Vienna in 1649, the Empress Maria Leopoldine died in August and the court's musical activities were suspended. Froberger left the city and travelled widely for the next four years. In Paris Froberger became acquainted with many major French composers including Louis Couperin and Denis Gaultier. In November 1652 Froberger witnessed the death of the famed lutenist Blancrocher. Couperin, Gaultier, Dufaut and Froberger all wrote _tombeaux _lamenting the event.

In 1653, Froberger was reinstated as Viennese court organist. After the death of Ferdinand III, he was a political opponent of the new emperor Leopold I and consequently was dismissed. His final position was as tutor to Princess Sibylla of Würtemberg-Montbéliard at Héricourt. He died suddenly during vespers in May 1667. Froberger had made all necessary preparations a day before he died.

Some have credited him with the development of the baroque keyboard "suite." In any event, his experience led him to fuse the basic "German" dance movement keyboard suite with the influences of Italy and, particularly, those of France. In the latter he was principally drawn to the luténists, whose style brisé (arpeggiated texture) he was able to incorporate into many of this keyboard suites or "partitas". His use of a prelude in his suites, led Couperin to cultivate the unmeasured prelude.

Froberger contributed greatly to the exchange of musical traditions in Europe. His works were studied by Pachelbel, Buxtehude, Georg Muffat and his son Gottlieb Muffat, Louis Couperin, Handel and J S Bach among many others. Copies in Mozart's hand of the Hexachord Fantasia survive. Most of his music was published posthumously beginning in the last decade of the seventeenth century, at a ripe moment in the forging of High Baroque German national artistic consciousness. Thus his style, blending Italian and French genres and techniques with quintessentially "German" contrapuntal thinking, was immediately perceived as a foundation of this national style.


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## Jacck

I was introduced to Froberger through Grigory Sokolov (pianist) and Froberger was possibly as talented as Bach. Here is a great introduction to his music by the great pianist for those wishing to discover him


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## Mandryka

Re the opening post, which seems mostly fine, when you say "led Couperin to cultivate the unmeasured prelude", who are you talking about, Francois or Louis or another? As far as I know there's no evidence that Louis took the idea of writing unmeasured music from Froberger, rather than vice versa or from someone else, and if I remember right, Francois didn't write unmeasured preludes -- what he did write sound like unmeasured preludes, but it's an illusion.

How do we know that Bach studied Froberger -- or Handel? Or Pachelbel? You're probably right, but I just wonder what the evidence is. Someone once said to me that the big conduit of Froberger's music into North Germany was Weckmann -- I've never explored this. 


One thing that may be worth mentioning is that Mattheson attributed the invention of stylus fantasticus to Froberger, but he may not have been correct to do so.


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## Taggart

Mandryka said:


> Re the opening post, which seems mostly fine, when you say "led Couperin to cultivate the unmeasured prelude", who are you talking about, Francois or Louis or another? As far as I know there's no evidence that Louis took the idea of writing unmeasured music from Froberger, rather than vice versa or from someone else, and if I remember right, Francois didn't write unmeasured preludes -- what he did write sound like unmeasured preludes, but it's an illusion.


I meant Louis, of course, from the dates - Froberger met him in Paris in 1650.

Regarding your other points - my information comes from Wiki, as I was supplying a guestbook for the next stage in our baroque listening project.

I understand that plausible comparisons were made with some keyboard pieces by Couperin's friend Johann Froberger, above all with his 'Italian' toccatas for instance in Davitt Moroney, 'The Performance of Unmeasured Harpsichord Preludes', Early Music 4/2 (1976), 143-151. The preludes 1, 3, 6 and 12 are recognized as related to the Italian toccata, because of their tripartite divisions.



Mandryka said:


> How do we know that Bach studied Froberger -- or Handel? Or Pachelbel? You're probably right, but I just wonder what the evidence is. Someone once said to me that the big conduit of Froberger's music into North Germany was Weckmann -- I've never explored this.


Wiki is my source. It also mentions Weckmann - described as "a composer whose works would have been completely lost to history, had it not been for the 19th century interest in researching the predecessors of J.S. Bach."

There is a guestbook for Weckmann, where you may like to add some further comments. :tiphat:


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## RICK RIEKERT

Mandryka said:


> As far as I know there's no evidence that Louis took the idea of writing unmeasured music from Froberger, rather than vice versa or from someone else, and if I remember right, Francois didn't write unmeasured preludes -- what he did write sound like unmeasured preludes, but it's an illusion.


In the preface to his 1985 edition of Louis Couperin's Pièces de clavecin Davitt Maroney writes, "the frame of reference for [Couperin's preludes] is that of Froberger's toccatas." I suppose one way to think of the unmeasured prelude is as a French version of a Germanic interpretation of this Italian genre. In his 1993 edition of Froberger's works Siegbert Rampe speculates that a possible "pupil-teacher relationship existed between [Couperin and Froberger] whereby L. Couperin adopted Froberger's form of the toccata." In her study of Couperin's unmeasured preludes, Anne Chapelin-Dubar shows how Couperin "shared in or elaborated on certain of Froberger's stylings, such as scalar ascents that plummet dramatically more than an octave, other such scales or undulating passage work, angular melody and bass lines, major seventh chord sonorities, expressive dissonant intervals, presented melodically and as harmonic support, and characteristic descents by chained fourths, filled in with neighbor or passing tones."

Perhaps it's not wholly an illusion that François' fully notated preludes sound unmeasured . The tradition of freely rhythmic performance of preludes and related genres could be communicated through either notation or textual instructions. In 'L'art de toucher de clavecin' he wrote:

" il faut que ceux qui auront recours à ces Préludes-réglés, le joüent d'une maniere aisée sans trop s'attacher à la precision des mouvemens; à moins que je ne l'aÿe marqué exprés par le mot de, Mesuré: Ainsi, on peut hazarder de dire, que dans beaucoup de choses, la Musique (par comparaison à la Poésie) a sa prose, et ses vers."

[those who resort to these regulated preludes should play them in a relaxed way without greatly adhering to the exactness of the movement, at least where I have not expressly marked with the word measured. Thus, one might hazard to say that, as in many things, music (as compared to poetry) has its prose, and its verse.]


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## Mandryka

RICK RIEKERT said:


> In the preface to his 1985 edition of Louis Couperin's Pièces de clavecin Davitt Maroney writes, "the frame of reference for [Couperin's preludes] is that of Froberger's toccatas." I suppose one way to think of the unmeasured prelude is as a French version of a Germanic interpretation of this Italian genre. In his 1993 edition of Froberger's works Siegbert Rampe speculates that a possible "pupil-teacher relationship existed between [Couperin and Froberger] whereby L. Couperin adopted Froberger's form of the toccata." In her study of Couperin's unmeasured preludes, Anne Chapelin-Dubar shows how Couperin "shared in or elaborated on certain of Froberger's stylings, such as scalar ascents that plummet dramatically more than an octave, other such scales or undulating passage work, angular melody and bass lines, major seventh chord sonorities, expressive dissonant intervals, presented melodically and as harmonic support, and characteristic descents by chained fourths, filled in with neighbor or passing tones."


I always thought that the genre of unmeasured preludes came first from the French lute composers. I once read that it's something the lute players used to do to get a feel for the instrument's sound -- they'd improvise a little prelude.

Thanks for the passage from Anne Chapelin-Dubar. I'm quite willing to believe that Froberger introduced Italian ideas to Louis Couperin.

Of course it's not an illusion that Francois Couperin's preludes _sound _unmeasured. It's an illusion that they _are _unmeasured. They aren't.

(For me this is important because I'm interested in the relationship between the composition and the sound of the performance. I'm interested in the idea that the composer does not have an intention about how the music he composes should sound.)

I suppose what Francois Couperin meant was that the musician should use his discretion to apply suspensions and diminutions. But I think that the move from the text of a Froberger or Louis Couperin prelude to its performance demands more imagination -- it would be interesting to explore this. Maybe someone who has played one could explain what the interpretive challenges are.

Here's what a prelude by Francois Couperin looks like









And here's what a Froberger prelude looks like









By the way, it once crossed my mind that it's instructive that Leonhardt should have been so opposed to improvisation (I believe he was -- he thought you could never do it authentically), but was perfectly happy to play Louis Couperin and Froberger preludes.


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## RICK RIEKERT

Mandryka said:


> I always thought that the genre of unmeasured preludes came first from the French lute composers. I once read that it's something the lute players used to do to get a feel for the instrument's sound -- they'd improvise a little prelude.


The usual connection between the lute and harpsichord at this time is often cited as an "origin" for the keyboard preludes. But as Moroney remarks, it is more likely that the préludes non mesurés derive from the keyboard tradition of pieces written in measured notation but played with free rhythm. He even suggests that the preludes are a "uniquely French articulation" of the Italian toccata as disseminated by German composers.

David Ledbetter in his 'Harpsichord and Lute Music in 17th-Century France' notes that some composers wrote preludes that are more lute-like than those of other composers. He considers D'Anglebert one of the former, but Chapelin-Dubar speculates that the lute-like character and brevity of Couperin's Prelude 7 might be his first attempt at imitating a lute prelude. Composers took advantage of the keyboard's greater resources for sonority voicing and range, and "amplified" the lute model. Only a small number of lute preludes approach the extent of some of Couperin's longer preludes. The harpsichord preludes leave behind the older notion that these were improvised pieces to test the tuning of the instrument: they are instead "composed improvisations," with long-range planning and structure. So while composers followed the lutenists in the aspect of unmeasured rhythm, a strong dose of idiomatic keyboard writing inspired by the toccatas of Froberger elevates the preludes into artistic works in their own right.


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## RICK RIEKERT

Mandryka said:


> By the way, it once crossed my mind that it's instructive that Leonhardt should have been so opposed to improvisation (I believe he was -- he thought you could never do it authentically), but was perfectly happy to play Louis Couperin and Froberger preludes.


In the late 1950s Alan Curtis was among Leonhardt's earliest American students. In his memoir Curtis writes:

"Those who know Leonhardt only from later years will be surprised to learn that when I proposed to study a Louis Couperin unmeasured prelude with him, he at first refused to hear it, saying only " the notation prevents us today from knowing how it was performed then." He later consented to listen to my rendition and, still later, even to give me his comments. But it was only quite a few years later that he began to play these pieces in public, with ever more conviction. One of the last things I heard him play, last year, was an unmeasured prelude, and I remember feeling that EVERY NOTE was placed with exactly the most appropriate split-second timing. I feel that timing, in the sense of when exactly you play a note and when you release it, in a context of rhythmic nuance, is more important on the harpsichord than on any other instrument, and that Leonhardt is the person who first made us all aware of this fact, and who was able, better than anyone I have ever heard, to demonstrate it."

Curtis also tells of the time when Leonhardt confounded a waitress in a Texas diner by ordering a "Fro-burger."


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## Mandryka

Very good quote by Curtis there! About timing. I guessed D'Anglebert had a particularly strong influence from lute because of the transcriptions.

Re Froberger, I wonder what you'll make of this


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## Myriadi

Mandryka said:


> And here's what a Froberger prelude looks like
> 
> View attachment 104179


I'm sorry, but that's not a Froberger prelude, that's a Louis Couperin piece. And FYI many of the original manuscripts are available at the IMSLP:
http://imslp.org/wiki/Bauyn_Manuscript_(Various) (the primary source for Louis Couperin)
http://imslp.org/wiki/Libro_secondo,_A-Wn_Mus.Hs.18706_(Froberger,_Johann_Jacob)
http://imslp.org/wiki/Libro_quarto,_A-Wn_Mus.Hs.18707_(Froberger,_Johann_Jacob)
http://imslp.org/wiki/Libro_di_Capricci_e_Ricercate_(Froberger,_Johann_Jacob)


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## Mandryka

Myriadi said:


> I'm sorry, but that's not a Froberger prelude, that's a Louis Couperin piece. And FYI many of the original manuscripts are available at the IMSLP:
> http://imslp.org/wiki/Bauyn_Manuscript_(Various) (the primary source for Louis Couperin)
> http://imslp.org/wiki/Libro_secondo,_A-Wn_Mus.Hs.18706_(Froberger,_Johann_Jacob)
> http://imslp.org/wiki/Libro_quarto,_A-Wn_Mus.Hs.18707_(Froberger,_Johann_Jacob)
> http://imslp.org/wiki/Libro_di_Capricci_e_Ricercate_(Froberger,_Johann_Jacob)


Thanks, it shows you shouldn't just trust what comes up on google images!

By the way, I'm quite curious what you and Rick make of Egarr's Byrd, which I'm enjoying.


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## Ingélou

Mandryka said:


> Thanks, it shows you shouldn't just trust what comes up on google images!
> 
> *By the way, I'm quite curious what you and Rick make of Egarr's Byrd, which I'm enjoying.*


Here's the Byrd Composer Guestbook - would be easier for future readers to find.
William Byrd


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## Ingélou

Some Froberger links on YouTube for this guestbook:

Johann Jakob Froberger Cembalo Works,Blandine Verlet






More keyboard works - Enrico Baiano.





and - Johann Jacob Froberger : Toccata XX en la mineur par le Duo Coloquintes






(Froberger - where have you been all my life? :kiss


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## Myriadi

Mandryka said:


> By the way, I'm quite curious what you and Rick make of Egarr's Byrd, which I'm enjoying.


I haven't heard his Byrd, but seeing as this is a Froberger guestbook, I'll venture to say I never enjoyed Egarr's Froberger. I remember being grateful to him for recording a complete set, though.


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## Myriadi

RICK RIEKERT said:


> The usual connection between the lute and harpsichord at this time is often cited as an "origin" for the keyboard preludes. But as Moroney remarks, it is more likely that the préludes non mesurés derive from the keyboard tradition of pieces written in measured notation but played with free rhythm. He even suggests that the preludes are a "uniquely French articulation" of the Italian toccata as disseminated by German composers.


I might be biased since I loathe every Moroney record I've ever heard (well, almost - certainly the solo keyboard ones), but this sounds a little silly to me. That keyboard tradition arose primarily thanks to (and amidst) the much older lute tradition, and every single composer involved in the French school - be it Couperin or Froberger - couldn't help being influenced by the Parisian lute school, the same way Frescobaldi couldn't ignore Kapsberger's toccatas, and earlier Italian organists most certainly did not ignore the lutenists of their day.


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## Mandryka

Myriadi said:


> I haven't heard his Byrd, but seeing as this is a Froberger guestbook, I'll venture to say I never enjoyed Egarr's Froberger. I remember being grateful to him for recording a complete set, though.


I like Egarr's cd 3 a lot. I still think he's the best complete Froberger, largely because I'm not keen on Asperen on organ.



Myriadi said:


> I might be biased since I loathe every Moroney record I've ever heard (well, almost - certainly the solo keyboard ones), but this sounds a little silly to me. That keyboard tradition arose primarily thanks to (and amidst) the much older lute tradition, and every single composer involved in the French school - be it Couperin or Froberger - couldn't help being influenced by the Parisian lute school, the same way Frescobaldi couldn't ignore Kapsberger's toccatas, and earlier Italian organists most certainly did not ignore the lutenists of their day.


Well yes, of course. As far as I know only the French wrote unmeasured keyboard music and it's highly plausible to say that they did so partly because they were inspired by a lute practice, especially given that the keyboard composers were aware of Blancrocher, Mesangeau and Pierre Gaultier.

Unfortunately I just can't get hold of Moroney's paper on unmeasured preludes to get clearer about what exactly he's saying. One thing I did find is that he argues that the inspiration for Louis Couperin's Prelude in imitation of Froberger was the first toccata in Frescobaldi's 1649 book. I can imagine he's right about that.


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## Mandryka

Can I ask a question? What exactly is a tombeau? Is it a celebration, a mourning piece, or what?


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## premont

Mandryka said:


> Can I ask a question? What exactly is a tombeau? Is it a celebration, a mourning piece, or what?


It can not be said better than in this Wiki quote:

A tombeau (plural tombeaux) is a musical composition (earlier, in the early 16th century, a poem) commemorating the death of a notable individual. The term derives from the French word for "tomb" or "tombstone". The vast majority of tombeaux date from the 17th century and were composed for lute or other plucked string instruments. The genre gradually fell out of use during the 18th century, but reappeared in the early 20th.


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## Myriadi

Mandryka said:


> I like Egarr's cd 3 a lot. I still think he's the best complete Froberger, largely because I'm not keen on Asperen on organ.


Ah, I'm not too fond of Asperen's set myself. I wish Leonhardt recorded more Froberger, or Kenneth Gilbert - I like their interpretations best. I've only heard two organ discs of Froberger - Kelemen's and Coudurier's. I haven't listened to them in a while - I believe they both had their share of good and bad qualities.



Mandryka said:


> Well yes, of course. As far as I know only the French wrote unmeasured keyboard music and it's highly plausible to say that they did so partly because they were inspired by a lute practice, especially given that the keyboard composers were aware of Blancrocher, Mesangeau and Pierre Gaultier.


Absolutely.



Mandryka said:


> Unfortunately I just can't get hold of Moroney's paper on unmeasured preludes to get clearer about what exactly he's saying. One thing I did find is that he argues that the inspiration for Louis Couperin's Prelude in imitation of Froberger was the first toccata in Frescobaldi's 1649 book. I can imagine he's right about that.


"Or - as the kids today would say - like, any of the pieces Froberger played for the guy in Paris when they were hanging out, dude."

Seriously though, it'd be nice to see an exact quote for this as well :tiphat:


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## Mandryka

I've picked up from general reading that he argues that specifically preludes 1,3,6 and 12 are related to Italian toccatas.


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## Mandryka

premont said:


> It can not be said better than in this Wiki quote:
> 
> A tombeau (plural tombeaux) is a musical composition (earlier, in the early 16th century, a poem) commemorating the death of a notable individual. The term derives from the French word for "tomb" or "tombstone".


Moroney wrote somewhere that he sees these things as musical burials. And so the famous scale at the end of Froberger's Blancrocher tombeau isn't the poor chap falling down a flight of stairs (clumsy), it's rather his soul descending into the underworld (noble.)


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## premont

Mandryka said:


> Moroney wrote somewhere that he sees these things as musical burials.


This may be a subtle distinction. When one attends a burial the purpose is of course to say a last goodbye to the deceased individual but also to commemorate him/her.


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## Mandryka

Mandryka said:


> largely because I'm not keen on Asperen on organ.
> 
> .


I regret saying that.

Over the past couple of days I've been listening to Asperen playing the Capriccios. When you hear them all presented together like this, played on a good instrument, it does sound as major a polyphonic cycle as Frescobaldi's Capriccios. Asperen compares it to AoF in fact in that it contains exhaustive explorations of the contrapuntal possibilities of a single theme.

Anyway I think this recording of Asperen on organ is pretty interesting


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## Eusebius12

I love this composer. He should be more widely performed. I think he would be if he wasn't difficult to 'read'


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## Mandryka

Eusebius12 said:


> I love this composer. He should be more widely performed. I think he would be if he wasn't difficult to 'read'


Apart from the preludes, is it harder to read than any other baroque keyboard composer? Louis Couperin, Frescobaldi, Bach, Byrd all present their problems.

But yes, the preludes present their own challenges.

My own feeling is that, on record, he's relatively well served, especially for the late "death music" I'm getting much more interested in his Italianate music, the capricci and ricercari.


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## philoctetes

Froberger is on my rotation a lot this year, along with Couperin and Chambonnieres. I take 'read' to mean *interpret*, as this composer seems like a St-Colombe type, reserved and deeper than obvious on first hearing. But he's still somewhat new to me.

Spence, Rannou, and Deverite make up my Forqueray library so far. Rannou seems to make Froberger sound the least conservative. Deverite is at the other pole. I like both approaches, perhaps Deverite's sraightness leaves the listener more to "interpret".


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## Mandryka

I think you're confusing Forqueray and Froberger. The image I attached by mistake.


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## philoctetes

Gawd I did 

Thanks for gently correcting me.


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## Mandryka

For Forqueray transcriptions, I think you should try to hear this


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## philoctetes

I guess you could say I was f'd up...


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