# The top X counter thread



## Guest (Sep 22, 2015)

For those of you who can't be limited to ten or even to one hundred.

For those of you who don't think a vertical perspective is at all useful for thinking about the arts.

For those of you who are just generally inclusive.

This is your thread.

Every once and awhile, post a composer or twelve that you admire with a brief note about why you admire them. You might even mention specific works, if you like. No favorites, though. We don't have no stinking favorites.

I'll start.

Michèle Bokanowski--I was in the Hollywood Amoeba shortly after it had opened, when it still had a lot of 3" CDs. I had already discovered that the Cinema pour l'oreille series was pretty cool, so when I saw her _L'etoile absinthe_ in the characteristic packaging of that series, I bought it automatically. Some days later I put it on for the first time. Amazing. Overwhelming.

The next day I made the 90 minute drive back in to Hollywood to see if I could find any more discs by this amazing composer. There was one, in the three inch section, in the same Cinema pour l'oreille series. Either I'd overlooked it (unlikely), or it had come in in the two days since my last visit (also unlikely). Either way, there it was, so I bought it.

A couple of months later, CalArts--another 30 minutes or so up the road from Amoeba--hosted a weekend of the films of Patrick Bokanowski and of the music of Michèle Bokanowski and flew them from Paris to be there in person. Not just extraordinarily talented but also extraordinarily nice people.

[N.B.--I won't have time to do this very often, myself. I just wanted to counter the glut of new and resurrected "Top 10" (or 50 or 100 or 25 or whatever) lists that have been doing the old mushroom trick on TC recently.

And what I just said and the way I said it should not be taken as in any way a model for your own posts. This is a freeforall, OK?]


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## Guest (Sep 22, 2015)

Coates. I'm in love.

That's it.


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

Onestly a description like "amazing, overwhelming" isn't really more useful than a list of best composers or favorite works.


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## Guest (Sep 22, 2015)

Hahahaha, only two responses in and already the attacks have started.

And it's not even a particularly contentious topic.

But some of my colleagues are particularly contentious people, especially if I've said anything. I must be stopped, at all costs!

Well, norman, perhaps I too didn't think that "amazing" and "overwhelming" were all that useful, hence the other stuff. The driving back an hour and a half (each way) on some of the worst freeways in the world just on the off-chance of finding another piece by this outrageous composer. And that other piece likely as not not being nearly as overwhelming as the absinthe star. Maybe it will be, maybe not. But I'm willing to take the risk. So that was my story.

You want a description of the piece? Fine. I can do that, too, but I think the anecdote about driving into Hollywood more convincing about the music's effect on me than a mere description of the piece. But what the hay? It starts with a kind of stutter, a sound that starts, very briefly pauses, and comes rushing back in again. Not even a pause, really. More like a hiccough. It's a crescendo, too, so the second part of the sound really comes swooping in at you. So it's intriguing and unsettling and startling all at once. And that's only the first sound, lasting less than a second. It's one of the more instantly compelling openings of any piece I know. Then there's a high frequency that comes floating in over the top of what you're now aware was not one sound but two--a low frequency drone and the hiccough sound (which is vaguely voice-like--no surprise, as it's the composer's voice, heavily processed). The high sound turns into a kind of melody. That is, the frequency changes, going higher and lower, but always floating over the top of the lower sounds.

We're only about a second, a second and a half, into the piece, and we've got already the three main strands of the thing. The low drone, the stuttering vocal sound, and the high, long, slow sounds. That's it. And those three move and turn slowly around each other--the vocal sound sometimes speeding up, a stunning effect, but the drone and the high "melody" staying serene and aloof throughout. It is the richest sounding piece with the most economical of materials that I know of. Perhaps Xenakis' _Bohor_ is close, but Bohor's materials are slightly more various. And voluptuous as _Bohor_ is, I find _L'etoile absinthe_ even more so.

A word of warning, norman. Do not think that your snark will produce such positive results every time. You just happened to catch me at a particularly advantageous moment. It probably won't happen again.


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## Guest (Sep 22, 2015)

norman bates said:


> Onestly a description like "amazing, overwhelming" isn't really more useful than a list of best composers or favorite works.


Essentially: Text vs Listing/Ordering.

For me, I do think the former more "useful" than the latter.

For me.


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## Dim7 (Apr 24, 2009)

I hardly see norman bates' reply as snarkier than what is your standard reply to top X threads, some guy.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

We don't need no stinking musical descriptions.  The composer's name, and some pieces you're enthusiastic about will suffice. This is not an attack. I'll check back for some interesting responses.

I don't have any unfamiliar composers or pieces to contribute at the moment. I'm on a Lutoslawski kick, but I'm pretty sure everyone's heard of him.


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

dogen said:


> Essentially: Text vs Listing/Ordering.
> 
> For me, I do think the former more "useful" than the latter.
> 
> For me.


well yes. I'm not against the idea. But it depends what the text is (for instance: someone can think also that Justin Bieber is an amazing composer, but if I don't know who he is a description like "amazing composer" would not be very useful, certainly not more useful than the other topics that should be less useful according to someguy).


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## Dr Johnson (Jun 26, 2015)

Jeffrey Stolet. Concerto for Orchestra, Chainsaw and Cow.

All done on a computer. Sounds much better than it sounds.

Here he is performing another piece (not on the above CD).

If you like this you'll probably like the Concerto for O, Ch & C.


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## Blancrocher (Jul 6, 2013)

I just listened to my first piece by Michèle Bokanowski, called Tabou.






An entertaining piece, with lovely ambient sounds that often change direction just as I'm getting accustomed to them. I'll listen to more.

As an aside, I see Bokanowski's done a number of soundtracks for her husband, who is an experimental film maker. I'll order what Wikipedia calls "his most prominent, fascinating, and obsessive work" soon:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Angel_(1982_film)


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## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

Good luck with this project. Since I can't say much of anything about any music beyond 'I like it' (whether it's by JS Bach or Ligeti) I'm of no use here.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

Dr Johnson said:


> Jeffrey Stolet. Concerto for Orchestra, Chainsaw and Cow.
> 
> All done on a computer. Sounds much better than it sounds.


Is this a riddle?


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## Dr Johnson (Jun 26, 2015)

No. What makes you ask?


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

Just joking with you! But, "sounds much better than it sounds" is kinda like tastes much better than it tastes.


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## Dr Johnson (Jun 26, 2015)

Ah! I see what you mean.

The music sounds much better than its description (made on a computer) might suggest. 

Some of us still remember the Jazz From Hell album by Zappa and the trauma thereof.


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## GreenMamba (Oct 14, 2012)

dogen said:


> Essentially: Text vs Listing/Ordering.
> 
> For me, I do think the former more "useful" than the latter.
> 
> For me.


But all you said about Coates is you like her music. Surely you could have squeezed "Glissando" in there somewhere. 



starthrower said:


> We don't need no stinking musical descriptions.  The composer's name, and some pieces you're enthusiastic about will suffice. This is not an attack. I'll check back for some interesting responses.


So how is this different than the "pieces that have blown you away" thread?

But I shouldn't dump on someguy's thread. Maybe we should have more personal diary type of stuff. I'm afraid for most it will just be "listened to James Tenney's Spectral Canon for Colin Nancorrow while on the couch. Amazing."


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## Guest (Sep 22, 2015)

Blancrocher said:


> I just listened to my first piece by Michèle Bokanowski, called Tabou.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


This one's a bit more recent, though. More representative of what he's been up to in this century:






L'ange is pretty entertaining, though, I must say. It was played at the CalArts event, of course, along with all the short films up the that point. Pretty amazing stuff if you have a taste for non-narrative film.


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## Blancrocher (Jul 6, 2013)

some guy said:


> This one's a bit more recent, though. More representative of what he's been up to in this century:


Thanks--I'll check this one out tonight.


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## Headphone Hermit (Jan 8, 2014)

GreenMamba said:


> But all you said about Coates is you like *her *music. Surely you could have squeezed "Glissando" in there somewhere.


Hey! Perhaps Dogen was being really off-the-wall and was liking the music of Eric Coates? :devil:


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## GreenMamba (Oct 14, 2012)

Headphone Hermit said:


> Hey! Perhaps Dogen was being really off-the-wall and was liking the music of Eric Coates? :devil:


Or Albert Coates, who composed as well as conucted. Apparently he wrote an opera based on Samuel Pepys.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

The video/sound links are helpful.


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## GioCar (Oct 30, 2013)

some guy, as much I admire many of your posts (not all...), as little I get why you are so against the top X lists.
We already have a wonderful section* of the forum where each one of us can post what you are suggesting here, with the big advantage that what is posted there doesn't get lost in the "mare magnum" of all threads here...

After all, the "top x list" threads are just games. Who said that it's only by playing games that one reaches the true knowledge and wisdom? Maybe no one, but I like it.

* a bit neglected and underrated


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## isorhythm (Jan 2, 2015)

I don't understand why this is any different from Top _ lists. Many people who do those lists don't rank them in order. Some do, but who cares? The order is not very important.

You will write about some pieces in this thread, and not write about many more pieces. That's a "vertical" ordering right there. So what?


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## Guest (Sep 22, 2015)

GreenMamba said:


> But all you said about Coates is you like her music. Surely you could have squeezed "Glissando" in there somewhere.


I could, but I didn't want to box her in! (and on a smartphone you have to be succinct!) I could also have said she is the musical daughter of Penderecki and started some more griping!


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

One composer I like very much is Anthony Pateras (b. 1979)

The first piece by him that I really admired was a piece called Chromatophore. It's for amplified string octet and I think it was written in 2002 when he was still in his early 20s. Seeing this work performed live in 2010 was hugely inspiring and convinced me that my passion in life above everything else in music was composition and the contemporary music scene. After seeing the piece performed, I immediately went home and wrote a short piano quintet which made use of microtones, tremolo glissandi, cello percussion and other things which I saw in Chromatophore that I previously would never have considered would be possible. Chromatophore made me realise that Mozart, Vivaldi and Tchaikovsky imitations in my compositions will limit me at some point if I don't start developing my own style......

Pateras has also composed a large output of percussion works, electronic works, bizarre virtuosic piano (and prepared piano) works. He is also part of a duo called Pivixki consisting of electronic keyboard and drum kit....and that music is extraordinarily fast and loud. Just a warning for you if you're curious to look it up.

Unfortunately, Chromatophore is not on YouTube anywhere or anywhere online to listen to for free BUT this year I bought a 5CD set of his music which includes a good essential collection of his works across genres (but alas, no Chromatophore!). On YouTube there are several excerpts, this is one of them, about half of a concerto for electric violin:


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## ArtMusic (Jan 5, 2013)

J. S. Bach, mass in B Minor. I like it a lot because summarizes humanity in the most humble way and technically ingenious way I have ever encountered.

Handel, Messiah. Similar to the above but more spontaneous to the moment of drama to glorify humanity than any other works ever written.

A very good idea thread. Just pure and simple why we love piece X by composer Y.


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## Guest (Sep 23, 2015)

Interesting. I looked at that Pateras box set right around the time I was ripping all my CDs before donating them to a local radio station and moving to Europe.

Now I want it. To rip. (I'm not going to carry a bunch of CDs around. I only wish digital books were as satisfying as physical books. But they're not. 

Now I'm sad.)


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## violadude (May 2, 2011)

Lists are like the McDonalds of Classical Music forums (or any forum really). They're easy to do and don't take too much energy to write, which makes them popular (Hey, I just did one yesterday), but ultimately not very filling or nutritious.

I like Some Guys idea of writing something about the composer along with your list. I do wish more people would do that. For someone like me who's already pretty familiar with most of the names anyone is going to type down, it's nice to get a little something more insightful to sink your teeth into. 

Besides, if you want a list of X composers then you can just go to Wikipedia. They have lots of them.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

Re: Pateras 

Love the sound of Errors Of The Human Body. Looking for a copy now. Thanks!


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## Weston (Jul 11, 2008)

I was thinking the "Pieces that have blown you away recently" thread serves a similar purpose, but one can never have too many chances to be "turned on" to unfamiliar works. So I will be looking into these and have a few suggestions of my own when I get home.


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

starthrower said:


> Re: Pateras
> 
> Love the sound of Errors Of The Human Body. Looking for a copy now. Thanks!


You might also like his electroacoustic/electronic collaborations with Robin Fox.


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## Selby (Nov 17, 2012)

some guy said:


> Interesting. I looked at that Pateras box set right around the time I was ripping all my CDs before donating them to a local radio station and moving to Europe.
> 
> Now I want it. To rip. (I'm not going to carry a bunch of CDs around. I only wish digital books were as satisfying as physical books. But they're not.
> 
> Now I'm sad.)


I grabbed this box on CofAG's recommendation and definitely have NOT regretted it.


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## Weston (Jul 11, 2008)

Okay, in keeping with the semi-contemporary new music genre trend of this thread, here is a work that is not a favorite but one I do enjoy by Paul Dresher.

I saw him and his electro-acoustic ensemble with Terry Riley about a decade ago at the university where I work. They were touring some microtonal works along with Riley's then new piano concerto. I enjoyed it a lot, feeling I hadn't really lived before hearing a midi enhanced microtonal amplified bassoon.

This is none of the above works and probably not micro-tonal, but I do have the album. I would not say it is typical of Dresher's work. He never seems to have pinned down a recognizable idiom to call typical. The piece almost flirts with minimalism but not enough to get on my nerves. Rhythmically/spatially I find it pretty interesting.

Paul Dresher: Blue Night Settling - Setting Music - In the Great Night


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> You might also like his electroacoustic/electronic collaborations with Robin Fox.


I listened to a few other pieces on YouTube. A lot of this stuff I don't really enjoy, including the 40 + minute percussive piano piece, the electronic (w/Robin Fox) stuff, at least the live performance I found, and the string quartet. But I do like Immediata, and some others. I'm not sure where to find some of the CDs. Usually I go to Wayside Music for this type of contemporary music, but they only carry the Tzadik titles.


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## science (Oct 14, 2010)

My top X reasons for loving lists, rankings, and other information. 

X. I find out about music that I didn't already know about. 

X. I find out that other passionate classical music fans value certain music that I have not hitherto valued so highly. 

X. I get to share my enthusiasms with other passionate classical music fans. 

X. I get to annoy people who affect to scorn people like me, so we all get to enjoy the thrill of self-righteous rage. We all win. Someday, if such a day comes, when all pretensions are stripped away and we all know each other as we truly are, someguy will thank me and all others like me for participating in an activity that he was able to look down on so furiously, and we will thank him for looking down on us so furiously.


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## tdc (Jan 17, 2011)

One of the pieces I've listened to a lot lately is Francisco López work _Untitled Sonic Microorganisms_...I love it. Its so layered, so spacious, so zen... yet not without its own methods of building tension and climactic structures. Listen for the "lost souls" beginning around the 7:45 mark, some pretty haunting stuff. A powerful and multi-faceted work.


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## DeepR (Apr 13, 2012)

Since this doesn't seem to be confined to classical music, I like Michael J.V. Hensley, ("dark") ambient composer. His solo project Blood Box and collaborative efforts with Yen Pox. To me it's not cliched or cheezy like some other stuff from the genre. There's always gradual, subtle change and forward movement in his pieces. But what really stands out is that he really utilizes the full range of frequencies and listening to it through headphones is a very pleasant and lively aural journey. Here are the last two tracks from "The Iron Dream".


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## tdc (Jan 17, 2011)

DeepR said:


> Since this doesn't seem to be confined to classical music, I like Michael J.V. Hensley, ("dark") ambient composer. His solo project Blood Box and collaborative efforts with Yen Pox. To me it's not cliched or cheezy like some other stuff from the genre. There's always gradual, subtle change and forward movement in his pieces. But what really stands out is that he really utilizes the full range of frequencies and listening to it through headphones is a very pleasant and lively aural journey. Here are the last two tracks from "The Iron Dream".


Blood Box seems like some interesting music thanks for posting the links.

For the record if your "confined to classical" comment was in reference to López, I personally do consider him a classical composer (I realize his music is hard to classify though so I do not take offense if _you_ consider it non-classical), but would like to point out López has been featured in the composer of the month project on TC, he has an entry in the Composer Guestbook forum and one of his pieces made it into the TC Top 200 Post-1950 classical works. In other words I think the intention of this thread is to discuss classical music and I think López qualifies.


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