# Mahler Symphony no 4



## DavidA

The more lightweight of the symphonies. What are your favourite recordings?


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## Reichstag aus LICHT

Three long-term favourites spring immediately to mind:

Horenstein with the LSO and Margaret Price
Abravanel with the Utah Symphony and Netanya Davrath
Kletzki with the Philharmonia and Emmy Loose

Oddly enough, I was listening to the Boulez Cleveland recording (soloist Juliane Banse) only last night, and found that was rather wonderful too. But then, I'm a great fan of Boulez in Mahler.


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## Heck148

Mahler 4 is a wonderful work....Mahler in his lighter mode....no low brass...

It's like a concerto for the woodwind section - [strings, too, of course..]

My favorites are those which feature great woodwind playing, combined with great conducting -

Reiner/CSO
Szell/ Cleveland
Walter/NYPO [1945]
don't let the recording date deter you from this recording - very good sound - terrific performance


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## mbhaub

Reiner/CSO
Maazel/VPO
Kletzki/PO

and the most odd one: Kondrashin. The last movement is sung in Russian.


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## Becca

A couple of months ago I ran a blind comparison thread with 5 different versions of the Mahler 4th where the comments on the various performances were quite interesting...

Blind Comparison - Mahler Symphony #4

Here are the identities of the 5 performances and the reasons for inclusion:

A - Peter Oundjian / Toronto Symphony / Barbara Hannigan
B - Michael Tilson Thomas / San Francisco Symphony / Laura Claycomb
C - David Oistrakh / Moscow Philharmonic / Galina Vishnevskaya
D - Simon Rattle / Berlin Philharmonic / Christine Shafer
E - Klaus Tennstedt / SWR Symphony / Eva Csabo

All except C are from concert performances.
All except D are available on CD ... the Rattle/BPO is available in the BPO's Digital Concert Hall archive (Feb 2011)

I included A because I thought of Barbara Hannigan (surprise!) and along with Christine Shafer, was one of the best soloists.
B was included because it seemed like a very good performance EXCEPT for that *!($& slow 3rd movement!
C was included because I accidentally came across it while looking for choices and, given the unusual performers, I couldn't resist including it
D has long been a favourite of mine.
E was included because I wanted a Tennstedt live performance and that was the one that I could find.


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## MarkW

Haven't really heard a lot of them. First (way back when) was the Kletski version I took out of my pubic library as the 3rd Mahler symphony I had ever heard. A few years later I bought the Szell performance which has remained a favorite (to me this is one Mahler work that benefits from precision). I then heard a wonderful performance by Leinsdorf and the BSO, which for some reason RCA didn't record later. Have heard Bernstein, Abbado, Klemperer, and whoever used Elly Ameling as soloist. Haven't heard any really horrendous performances.


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## Larkenfield

This has been _the_ perfect recording for me, and it sounds like it's been superbly remastered:






It starts off on a B-minor chord for four bars and then quickly modulates into G major, very different than saying it starts off in the _key_ of B minor.


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## Brahmsianhorn

My 4 favs are:

Mengelberg
Barbirolli
Walter (with Güden)
Horenstein

I love all four of these recordings even though none of them I can really call definitive. Perhaps that is not always a bad thing.

Others:

Walter (w/Seefried, '50 and '53)
Kletzki
Szell
Maazel
Klemperer
Tennstedt


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## Becca

I also like the Barbirolli despite the technical goofs. As to Klemperer ... I'm not sure that Schwarzkopf was a good choice.


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## CnC Bartok

....no, she's not exactly "boyish" in her tone! If that's what you mean, then I suspect Bernstein's DGG recording will tick the right boxes, as far as I am aware, he's the only one who uses a treble?

I love this symphony, as much as the senitments expressed here so far, but I seem to give it a spin only rarely these days. Don't know why. I'd put Maazel's recording down as my favourite, but Kubelik is another I enjoy, and for a bit more beef, without losing the softer elements, I do enjoy George Szell's.


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## Brahmsian Colors

No special order:

Klemperer/Philharmonia
Kletzki/Philharmonia
Kubelik/BRSO
Solti/Amsterdam Concertgebouw
Tennstedt/London Philharmonic
Bernstein/New York Philharmonic
Horenstein/London Philharmonic
Walter/New York Philharmonic (mono)


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## realdealblues

No shortage of great recordings for this one in my opinion...Bernstein, Reiner, Levine, Levi, Previn, Maazel, Tilson-Thomas, Kletzki, Fischer, Honeck, and many others.

I probably reach for Bernstein/New York Philharmonic (Reri Grist) [1960] the most because it's a fantastic recording and I think Reri Grist fits the bill nicely, but also because it's the one I imprinted on so it's home base for me to a certain degree, but I have no problem reaching for another.

I like Kathleen Battle's voice so I will grab Maazel a lot. I love to hear Reiner and Levine and that Chicago brass. I love hearing Kletzki. I really enjoy lots of them. Like I said, no shortage of good ones in my opinion...


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## Reichstag aus LICHT

mbhaub said:


> and the most odd one: Kondrashin. The last movement is sung in Russian.


I didn't know that existed! I must seek it out...


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## Reichstag aus LICHT

MarkW said:


> Haven't heard any really horrendous performances.


There aren't too many from what I've heard. It's a lovely symphony, well served on record and in performance, too. One of my most memorable concert experiences was of Haitink conducting it with the LSO at the Barbican in 2009. This was ostensibly the "filler" for a two-night visit to London to see _Tristan und Isolde_ at Covent Garden, but the Mahler (and the Schubert 5 which preceded it) turned out to be the highlight of my stay.


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## Merl

DavidA, I think I know what your next thread will be.......


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## techniquest

> ....no, she's not exactly "boyish" in her tone! If that's what you mean, then I suspect Bernstein's DGG recording will tick the right boxes, as far as I am aware, he's the only one who uses a treble?


Not quite; Anton Nanut's recording with the Ljubljana Symphony Orchestra has a young Max Emmanuel Cencic as the soloist and he is hands down better than Helmut Wittek (Bernstein's treble).
There is also a chamber ensemble reduction of the symphony by Erwin Stein which was recorded by the Northern Sinfonia on Novalis and this recording has Daniel Hellman as the soloist, but he doesn't suit the work.


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## Reichstag aus LICHT

techniquest said:


> Not quite; Anton Nanut's recording with the Ljubljana Symphony Orchestra has a young Max Emmanuel Cencic as the soloist and he is hands down better than Helmut Wittek (Bernstein's treble).


Absolutely. The young Cencic does a fine job indeed.


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## DavidA

Merl said:


> DavidA, I think I know what your next thread will be.......


Oh dear, am I that predictable? :lol:


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## Reichstag aus LICHT

DavidA said:


> Oh dear, am I that predictable? :lol:


You're not. Mahler is


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## Merl

DavidA said:


> Oh dear, am I that predictable? :lol:


Yes, you're very predictable (I wrote this reply one minute after I wrote my previous post).


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## CnC Bartok

Reichstag aus LICHT said:


> You're not. Mahler is


Bloomin' cheek! So what comes after Symphony No8, then, eh,, eh eh??? :tiphat:


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## DavidA

Just got the Szell performance of no 4. Quite remarkable and it has von Stade singing 'Songs of a Wayfarer' as well. If you can get it second hand, do pick it up. The best Mahler 4 on disc.


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## Totenfeier

As I've said elsewhere, love the usual gang, but there's something about Barbirolli's Adagio...can't put my finger on it, by no means the best played, but it really, really satisfies, every time. I'm also among those who feel Abravanel/Utah is an overlooked gem, and as a dark horse: Levine/Chicago, from his very good box.


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## CnC Bartok

DavidA said:


> Just got the Szell performance of no 4. Quite remarkable and it has von Stade singing 'Songs of a Wayfarer' as well. If you can get it second hand, do pick it up. The best Mahler 4 on disc.


Really glad you like it so much. As I said above, it really is one of my reference recordings, the slow movement is wonderful under Szell.

I'm not fully convinced by the songs as a filler, though. Von Stade is great, but the orchestra seems a bit subdued?


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## starthrower

Bernstein NYP has the charm. The only 4th I really love.


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## Merl

Totenfeier said:


> As I've said elsewhere, love the usual gang, but there's something about Barbirolli's Adagio...can't put my finger on it, by no means the best played, but it really, really satisfies, every time. I'm also among those who feel Abravanel/Utah is an overlooked gem, and as a dark horse: Levine/Chicago, from his very good box.


I love Levine in #4 too.


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## perdido34

Someone mentioned the remastered Szell Mahler 4. The CD in the Big Szell Box has been remastered since the last CD issue, and the 24/192 download sounds even better.


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## DarkAngel

Many mentions of Szell great choice, I actually like the Reiner SACD a bit more with Lisa Della Casa
Inbal again for clarity of orchestral texture 
New Fischer for amazing modern sound and Miah Persson.........

Special mention for Berstein DG using boy singer for "childs view of heaven" although if you only have one the early NYPO Sony is best overall


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## Merl

DarkAngel said:


> Many mentions of Szell great choice, I actually like the Reiner SACD a bit more with Lisa Della Casa
> Inbal again for clarity of orchestral texture
> New Fischer for amazing modern sound and Miah Persson.........
> 
> Special mention for Berstein DG using boy singer for "childs view of heaven" although if you only have one the early NYPO Sony is best overall


Nice to hear mention of Fischer"s wonderful account. That's a very special disc. Would love to hear it on a top quality SACD system, just for comparison to my mealy stereo. It's supposed to be spectacular.


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## Oldhoosierdude

techniquest said:


> Not quite; Anton Nanut's recording with the Ljubljana Symphony Orchestra has a young Max Emmanuel Cencic as the soloist and he is hands down better than Helmut Wittek (Bernstein's treble).
> There is also a chamber ensemble reduction of the symphony by Erwin Stein which was recorded by the Northern Sinfonia on Novalis and this recording has Daniel Hellman as the soloist, but he doesn't suit the work.


This is my preferred recording of the work (Nanut).


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## betterthanfine

DarkAngel said:


> New Fischer for amazing modern sound and Miah Persson.........


This is a favourite of mine. I love Persson in the finale. Other recordings I love are Chailly/Bonney/Concertgebouw, Haitink/Ameling/Concertgebouw, and Maazel/Battle/Wiener Philharmoniker. I have a few others, but these get the most spins.


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## jim prideaux

reacquainted with this marvellous symphony having just got the Gielen box set of Mahler.....what a great recording and interpretation.

However my initial introduction years ago was with Abbado on DG (a vinyl recording I still have and although few mention it I still have a real 'soft spot' for it whenever I listen)


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## jim prideaux

jim prideaux said:


> reacquainted with this marvellous symphony having just got the Gielen box set of Mahler.....what a great recording and interpretation.
> 
> However my initial introduction years ago was with Abbado on DG (a vinyl recording I still have and although few mention it I still have a real 'soft spot' for it whenever I listen)


.......and again this evening and as I listen I cannot but be increasingly impressed (and consider myself fortunate to have the entire cycle to 'investigate'.....my knowledge is of Mahler is essentially sporadic at best!)


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## Becca

Now this is 'interesting' ... I see from the Munich Philharmonic site that they have programmed the 4th for May 2020 ... the interesting part is that Barbara Hannigan will be both conductor _and_ soprano! I suppose if she can do _Luonnotar_, then...


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## flamencosketches

Becca said:


> Now this is 'interesting' ... I see from the Munich Philharmonic site that they have programmed the 4th for May 2020 ... the interesting part is that Barbara Hannigan will be both conductor _and_ soprano! I suppose if she can do _Luonnotar_, then...


No way.... I would love to see how that turns out.


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## SixFootScowl

Any thoughts on this recording?


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## flamencosketches

I didn't even know Karajan recorded the 4th... I'll have to check that out. I love the Karajan recording of some Mahler Lieder with Christa Ludwig.


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## Granate

I was very excited when the LPO announced the release of this 2016 performance. Does anyone know if the London Philhamonic is planning to record and release a cycle of their own in 24/196 quality as the Symphonieorchester des Bayerischen Rundfunks has done under their BR Klassik label? They've got modern recordings of 1, 2, 4, 5 and Das Lied so far.

I purchased this recording on CD but I also made the comparison between the Jurowski new recording and the Tennstedt studio. I think I played both of them in the wrong media when it should have been the other way: I played Jurowski on bluetooth speakers while cooking and Tennstedt on earphones while commuting. I thought Jurowski's conducting was a slow one but it had a bit of tension. I couldn't comment on the playing quality, but I really value Sofia Fomina, who while not singing really clear, I think she really succeeds at portraying the child character in Heaven, over Popp. What I heard of Tennstedt was again quite disappointing. The (fast and dynamic) conducting was like the only thing worth praising in the recording. As the playing was here not dull but uninspiring, too rough. Difficult to enjoy for me.

Have you people listened to the Jurowski recording? I just read one review out there.


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## Kiki

I've gone through Jurowski's Mahler 4 a few times now. This is a subtle Mahler 4. There is a sense of humour throughout the first movement. The ghostly violin at the beginning of the haunting scherzo is unforgettable. The slow movement maybe a tad less intense as I do not hear much unsettling undercurrents. However, the finale that follows is IMO magnificent. Sofia Fomina is neither play-acting innocence, nor sarcasm, either way it would usually sound ridiculous as on some other records. Rather, she is a formidable story teller in total control, and the warmth on her voice is a pleasant bonus.

My complaint is with the artificial-sounding engineering, as usual with the LPO label. The high frequencies are a tad too squeaky (as usual), while the instruments are occasionally pushed forward to right in the front of my nose. Still it is more than listenable, and quite acceptable.


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## Duncan

Top 5 in alphabetical order...

Claudio Abbado - Berliner Philharmoniker - Renée Fleming

Pierre Boulez - Cleveland Orchestra - Juliane Banse

Riccardo Chailly - Gewandhaus Orchestra Leipzig - Christina Landshamer 

Simon Rattle - CBSO - Amanda Roocroft

Georg Solti - CSO - Kiri Te Kanawa

Absolute favourites - 

Odd days of the week - Abbado

Even days of the week - Chailly


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## Larkenfield

Fritz Kobus said:


> Any thoughts on this recording?


I thought his 1980 live performance of the 4th was outstanding with his charming and idiomatic portamentos in the strings, the subtle dynamics and numerous changes of pace in tempo, its overall lightness of spirit when called for, the amazing amount of detail in the slow movement, is well worth hearing. It's one of the best recordings I've heard of his and I feel that a tremendous amount of thoughtfulness went into it. Not being particularly drawn to most of his recordings, I was surprised and delighted. I much prefer his live recordings to his studio ones.


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## NLAdriaan

Larkenfield said:


> I thought his 1980 live performance of the 4th was outstanding with his charming and idiomatic portamentos in the strings, the subtle dynamics and numerous changes of pace in tempo, its overall lightness of spirit when called for, the amazing amount of detail in the slow movement, is well worth hearing. It's one of the best recordings I've heard of his and I feel that a tremendous amount of thoughtfulness went into it. Not being particularly drawn to most of his recordings, I was surprised and delighted. I much prefer his live recordings to his studio ones.


Didn't know this live recording existed. Do you have the CD and if so, how would you rate the sound quality?


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## DavidA

Larkenfield said:


> I thought his 1980 live performance of the 4th was outstanding with his charming and idiomatic portamentos in the strings, the subtle dynamics and numerous changes of pace in tempo, its overall lightness of spirit when called for, the amazing amount of detail in the slow movement, is well worth hearing. It's one of the best recordings I've heard of his and I feel that a tremendous amount of thoughtfulness went into it. Not being particularly drawn to most of his recordings, I was surprised and delighted. I much prefer his live recordings to his studio ones.


Is this a live performance? Looks like his studio one.


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## Larkenfield

DavidA said:


> Is this a live performance? Looks like his studio one.


It's live recording from 26 January 1980. Info is on the YT upload.


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## Larkenfield

NLAdriaan said:


> Didn't know this live recording existed. Do you have the CD and if so, how would you rate the sound quality?


The sound quality of this live performance is off a SACD and quite excellent.


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## Barbebleu

Because I’ve just got the Mengelberg and the Kletzki I’m bumping this thread.


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## vincula

Barbebleu said:


> Because I've just got the Mengelberg and the Kletzki I'm bumping this thread.


Looking forward to hearing your listening impressions on both!

Regards,

Vincula


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## Barbebleu

In his first post DavidA intimated that the fourth is the more lightweight of the symphonies. Well, mijnheer Mengelberg kind of disagrees with that theory and gives us an incisive if somewhat sardonic look at this complex work exposing its dark underbelly reminding us that even the sunny Mahler contains pain. His approach particularly to the first and third movements require the listener to be on their toes through every bar. Jo Vincent is as near to perfect in the last movement as one could wish for, sounding within the same phrase both warm and engaging then suddenly bleaching the tone sounding distant and cold reminding the listener that death haunts this symphony. Quite one of the best fourths I’ve ever heard. Can’t believe it’s taken me so long to get to it. I may not now listen to the Kletzki for a few days until I’ve digested this.


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## Allegro Con Brio

Totally agreed about Mengelberg. It takes a while to get used to the drastic tempo shifts and other mannerisms, but it really is a very special and very moving view of the symphony, not just an antique document. That said this is a very Classically oriented symphony and unlike other Mahler symphonies I can take this one when it is played more straightforward with a degree of creative detachment. However, though I like Reiner, Fischer, and the recent Vänskä (not least for Carolyn Sampson's ravishing finale) quite a bit for this reason I just do not care very much for the beloved Szell. As in with a lot of Szell much of it sounds stiff and cardboard, and the clarity of texture is not enough to sell me on it. I will admit that he turns in a very good Adagio though, which is undoubtedly the movement that makes or breaks the work for me. I think it is one of Mahler's greatest essays in the slow movement, second only to the great Adagio of the 9th. Another favorite 4th of mine is Klemperer - you hear soooo much lovely detail, and the Adagio is the fastest on record which gives it a very different feel (though of course Schwarzkopf lets it down by being too operatic in the finale). But of the ones I've heard, I would have to give my top prize to Barbirolli's BBC Legends rendition - he finds just the right amount of poignancy, pathos, humor and lyricism in the symphony without intervening as much as Mengelberg and the results are a joy, in brilliant recorded sound:


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## Barbebleu

Drat, now I’ve got to get the Barbirolli!:lol:


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## mbhaub

I love the spontaneity, the carefree tempo shift and the very individual approach Mengelberg brings to the recording. He sure ignores Mahler's instructions, but then since Mahler knew him, who's to say what's correct? I love the portamento in the strings. Hate the oboe sound. If any conductor alive today were to conduct this way he'd (she'd) be laughed out of the hall, condemned by the critics. I'm just grateful that we have this recording from an age when great romantic conducting was still possible.


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## HenryPenfold

Larkenfield said:


> It's live recording from 26 January 1980. Info is on the YT upload.


John Hunt's Karajan discography has him in the Philharmonie for DG recording sessions of Mozart's Die Zauberflote on 20-28 Jan 1980 (and 14 April) - (unpublished recording).

There are two Mahler 4 concerts with Mathis & BPO listed for 2 April 1980 Salzburg Grosses Festspielhaus - (unpublished recording) and 17 May 1980 Vienna Musikvereinssaal (CD: Private Edition)


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## HenryPenfold

I started out with Szell and was happy with that for quite a few years until I added the Karajan. Marvellous performances both.

Of the 14 or so recordings that I have these days, it is the recordings of Sinopoli (Dresden), Kubelik (Bavarian Radio) and Boulez (Cleveland) that I choose to listen to most often, very much in that in that order.

I have recently downloaded the Reiner, but not listened to it. Today I bought very cheaply a second hand CD of the Chailly (never needed to before because my friend bought it when it was first released and I used to borrow his, but as he shuffled off this mortal coil 3 years ago, I need my own copy).

P.S. Someone I am aware of rules out the Boulez for a 'glaringly missing' clarinet entry in the second movement. Happily, I've never noticed!


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## Heck148

Szell is good, and well-played, but I agree, a bit stiff, buttoned down for my taste....Reiner and Walter/NYPO from '45 (surprisingly good sound!!)....


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## flamencosketches

I need to hear the Kletzki; his DLvdE is amazing. And now my interest has been piqued by the Mengelberg too, though I tend to dislike most of what I've heard from him.


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## Enthusiast

I'll need to review my recent experiences with this symphony as my preferences have been through some changes recently. Too many of the noted accounts (including Szell and Reiner) inspire my admiration rather than engaging my heart. I do know that I like and enjoy the Boulez a lot (_it _engages my heart alright) and the BBC Barbirolli is good. But there are now quite a few others that I enjoy a lot - I just need to go through them.


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## flamencosketches

I still think my favorite is Bernstein/New York w/ Reri Grist, though I have recently begun to understand the criticism that it is too fast. 

Anyone heard Solti w/ Kiri te Kanawa? I have an odd feeling that it might be good. Another famous one I want to hear is Maazel/Vienna w/ Kathleen Battle (I could be wrong on the soprano), on CBS. I am not much of a Maazel guy but everyone says this is a beautiful recording, from the first ever digital Mahler cycle, I believe.


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## mbhaub

flamencosketches said:


> Another famous one I want to hear is Maazel/Vienna w/ Kathleen Battle (I could be wrong on the soprano), on CBS. I am not much of a Maazel guy but everyone says this is a beautiful recording, from the first ever digital Mahler cycle, I believe.


I dearly love the Maazel/Vienna recording. It was the first M4 I bought on CD (whole cycle actually) and the 4th was a knockout. Superbly played and conducted. The recorded sound is still stupendous. The only controversy is that last movement. Some people think it's just too slow and the wrong voice. I wholly disagree. It might be slower than others, but then great music can be played many different ways without damaging it. For me, it works beautifully and the voice is sublime! The Maazel cycle certainly had its low points, but the the highs were terrific and the 4th clearly is one of them. His New York remake wasn't bad, the his third version with the Philharmonia was quite nice, too.


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## Enthusiast

Yes, the Vienna Maazel is excellent (he made some superb records with the VPO). Bernstein with the NYPO is also very good. His later (Conertgebouw) one is also good and I like the idea of using a boy soprano. I also like the Horenstein.


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## Allegro Con Brio

HenryPenfold said:


> I started out with Szell and was happy with that for quite a few years until I added the Karajan. Marvellous performances both.


For some reason I never knew Karajan touched the 4th. It seems to never be talked about.


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## Gray Bean

A really fine performance: Yoel Levi/Atlanta Symphony Orchestra/Frederica Von Stade on Telarc. A good recording to use as a “blind taste test” on your knowledgeable friends!


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## Gray Bean

Otherwise:
Bernstein/Concertgebouw OA
Neumann/Czech PO
Walter/Columbia SO
Solti/Chicago SO
Jarvi/Scottish NO
Kletzki/PO


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## Art Rock

Allegro Con Brio said:


> For some reason I never knew Karajan touched the 4th. It seems to never be talked about.


Don't like it personally. Too slow. The average for the 4th is around 54 minutes, he takes an hour, and it shows.

Interesting btw that so many recordings in this discussion are referred to by orchestra and conductor, often not mentioning the soprano. For me the performance of the soprano is one of the key factors for success or not in the 4th. A case in point is the version by The Moscow Philharmonic under Oistrach (Melodiya) which I absolutely loved until Galina Vishnevskaya started singing.


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## wkasimer

mbhaub said:


> I dearly love the Maazel/Vienna recording. It was the first M4 I bought on CD (whole cycle actually) and the 4th was a knockout. Superbly played and conducted. The recorded sound is still stupendous. The only controversy is that last movement. Some people think it's just too slow and the wrong voice.


This is one of my favorite Maazel recordings, and I think that Battle is nearly perfect. The only soprano I prefer to her is Sylvia McNair on Haitink's Berlin PO recording, a singer whom I usually dislike.


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## CnC Bartok

mbhaub said:


> I dearly love the Maazel/Vienna recording. It was the first M4 I bought on CD (whole cycle actually) and the 4th was a knockout. Superbly played and conducted. The recorded sound is still stupendous. The only controversy is that last movement. Some people think it's just too slow and the wrong voice. I wholly disagree. It might be slower than others, but then great music can be played many different ways without damaging it. For me, it works beautifully and the voice is sublime! The Maazel cycle certainly had its low points, but the the highs were terrific and the 4th clearly is one of them. His New York remake wasn't bad, the his third version with the Philharmonia was quite nice, too.


I think that's my favourite Mahler 4! Just beautiful, Kathleen Battle's singing very much included in that. But as you say, as a cycle it is very uneven, 5,6,7 are pretty uninspired readings. I saw him do 8 at the Proms about the time of recording, a wonderful experience, so I am fond of the recording there too, it seems few others are though...

The first CD incarnation of that Mahler 4 was a single track, I kid you not! Apparently they thought index points were the future!!


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## mbhaub

CnC Bartok said:


> The first CD incarnation of that Mahler 4 was a single track, I kid you not! Apparently they thought index points were the future!!


I did't know that! But I believe it. I have several disks, especially on Marco Polo, where a long symphony is on one track, although there are numerous index points. Does anyone use those anymore? Do players have the ability to access by index?


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## Cortot

To me, Willem Mengelberg is unrivaled.


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## Marc

flamencosketches said:


> I still think my favorite is Bernstein/New York w/ Reri Grist, though I have recently begun to understand the criticism that it is too fast.


Nah. Mahler 4 can't be too fast. 

Mahler himself wrote in a letter to Nathalie Bauer-Lechner that the 4th symphony should last 45 minutes. In his own score he wrote the timings: 15-10-12-8. 12 minutes for the 3rd movement! Imagine that. To me, it proves that the 'Poco adagio' means: just a bit slow. Alas, almost everyone plays it Adagissimo. With a few exceptions of course. Like Kubelik on DG. It's probably my favourite recording of the entire symphony, and the 3rd movement sounds like heaven. It mostly flows and never languishes.

If Mahler would have wanted his 4th to last one hour or more, he would have penned down more notes. But this is, of course, just my tuppence worth.


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## DarkAngel

wkasimer said:


> This is one of my favorite Maazel recordings, and I think that Battle is nearly perfect. The only soprano I prefer to her is *Sylvia McNair* on Haitink's Berlin PO recording, a singer whom I usually dislike.


Love Miss Battle here but the unusually slow tempo by Maazel leaves leaves me unmoved, McNair also a favorite "child" performance for me along with Hendricks for Salonen, both have similar light clear youhtful sounding tones

















Bernstein takes a chance and succeeds brilliantly for me with his later DG 4th using actual child singer, this is a winner all the way around with dramatic tempo shifts, never sounds routine or too controlled, fearlessly explores Mahlers soundscapes


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## DarkAngel

Pristine XR has best sound for the Mengelberg, but I prefer the new DG Bernstein mentioned above as a performance with same orchestra, every passage is brought to life with color and nuance that escapes other conductors, never a dull moment.....


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## Marc

wkasimer said:


> This is one of my favorite Maazel recordings, and I think that Battle is nearly perfect. The only soprano I prefer to her is Sylvia McNair on Haitink's Berlin PO recording, a singer whom I usually dislike.


I like both, too (and I also like McNair in Monteverdi, Purcell or Mozart btw), but, to me, there are so many sopranos here who 'hit' the right spot. Elly Ameling (Haitink 1, Prévin), Lucia Popp (Tennstedt, Bertini), Helen Donath (Inbal)... just to mention a few. Somehow I have the feeling that most singers truly adore this piece and it shows in their performances.


----------



## Art Rock

Art Rock said:


> For me the performance of the soprano is one of the key factors for success or not in the 4th. A case in point is the version by The Moscow Philharmonic under Oistrach (Melodiya) which I absolutely loved until Galina Vishnevskaya started singing.


The same just now with the most recent addition to my M4 collection: Jordan with the Orchestre de la Suisse Romande on Erato (a 1 euro find at the local thrift store). Lovely version, but the soprano (Edith Wiens) was simply not up to it. There should be a childlike feeling to this singing, and only a few really manage to nail that (my favourite is Ameling with Haitink).


----------



## Marc

DarkAngel said:


> Love Miss Battle here but the unusually slow tempo by Maazel leaves leaves me unmoved, [...]


I can relate to that.



DarkAngel said:


> [...] Bernstein takes a chance and succeeds brilliantly for me with his later DG 4th using actual child singer, this is a winner all the way around with dramatic tempo shifts, never sounds routine or too controlled, fearlessly explores Mahlers soundscapes


During the years/decades, I've read a lot of criticism against Wittek, and towards Berstein's decision to opt for a boy soprano, but I think that Helmut did a great job here.


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## Azol

One of my favorites M4 is Haitink/Concertgebouw (with Roberta Alexander), which contains probably the most perfect and magical Ruhevoll amongst many other worthy contenders.

Been listening to M4 Tennstedt studio recording with London PO today - I could not help it but even the slightest mistake in the strings destroys the magic completely. I wonder how many violins were actually in tune by the time they reached the famous PPPP flageolet ending.

Maazel is interesting but orchestra was having a hard time pulling it out at such a slow pace.


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## Merl

Marc said:


> Nah. Mahler 4 can't be too fast.
> 
> Mahler himself wrote in a letter to Nathalie Bauer-Lechner that the 4th symphony should last 45 minutes. In his own score he wrote the timings: 15-10-12-8. *12 minutes for the 3rd movement! *Imagine that. To me, it proves that the 'Poco adagio' means: just a bit slow. Alas, almost everyone plays it Adagissimo. With a few exceptions of course. Like Kubelik on DG. It's probably my favourite recording of the entire symphony, and the 3rd movement sounds like heaven. It mostly flows and never languishes.
> 
> If Mahler would have wanted his 4th to last one hour or more, he would have penned down more notes. But this is, of course, just my tuppence worth.


Ive never seen that before, are you sure that's right, Marc? Even the quickest 3rd movements clock in at 17 minutes and that's from 'no-hanging-around-Svetlanov" and Mahler's assistant Walter. I'd love to hear someone get thru the 3rd movement in 12 mins just to hear what it would sound like. Lol


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## mbhaub

We know beyond any doubt that performances in the 19th and early 20th c were quicker than now. From about 1950 on was the Great Slowing in music. How do we know this? Because some players and conductors would write in their parts/scores just how long a real performance took. There are many examples, and someone should do a systematic collection of these timings. Would be interesting. There were some conductors who studied at that time and brought their quicker tempos with them well into the 20th c. Like Paul Paray. Even Bruno Walter maintained pretty quick tempi compared to conductors nowadays. Toscanini was another who really like the music to move along. I really wish we had some indication somewhere about timings in the Mahler 7th.


----------



## Merl

mbhaub said:


> We know beyond any doubt that performances in the 19th and early 20th c were quicker than now. From about 1950 on was the Great Slowing in music. How do we know this? Because some players and conductors would write in their parts/scores just how long a real performance took. There are many examples, and someone should do a systematic collection of these timings. Would be interesting. There were some conductors who studied at that time and brought their quicker tempos with them well into the 20th c. Like Paul Paray. Even Bruno Walter maintained pretty quick tempi compared to conductors nowadays. Toscanini was another who really like the music to move along. I really wish we had some indication somewhere about timings in the Mahler 7th.


I agree, music has slowed but look at the disparity between all the other movements and that one. All timings for the other movements have leeway of a few minutes at the very most but if that 12 minutes is correct then most conductors are nearly doubling it, even on the very newest recordings. I find that odd in an age when many younger conductors are adhering to period performance. Just saying.


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## Kiki

That got me curious: The only HIP Mahler I know, and like very much, that's played on period instruments is François-Xavier Roth's No. 1 (the Hamburg version). Is there any others?


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## MrMeatScience

Kiki said:


> That got me curious: The only HIP Mahler I know, and like very much, that's played on period instruments is François-Xavier Roth's No. 1 (the Hamburg version). Is there any others?


Herreweghe actually did a period instrument Mahler 4 with the Champs-Elysees about a decade or so ago. I like it but I think the reviews were largely mixed. He also recorded Des Knaben Wunderhorn but I find the singers let that recording down. Vladimir Jurowski did a period instrument Totenfeier and Lieder eines fahrenden Gesellen. That's all I can remember off the top of my head.


----------



## mbhaub

Kiki said:


> That got me curious: The only HIP Mahler I know, and like very much, that's played on period instruments is François-Xavier Roth's No. 1 (the Hamburg version). Is there any others?


Well, there is the ancient Resurrection with Oskar Fried. Horrible sound, poor brass playing, missing instruments -- what's not to hate? It's HIP having been made not even 20 years after Mahler's death. But is it a sound he would have known or approved? Doubtful.


----------



## Enthusiast

MrMeatScience said:


> Herreweghe actually did a period instrument Mahler 4 with the Champs-Elysees about a decade or so ago. I like it but I think the reviews were largely mixed. He also recorded Des Knaben Wunderhorn but I find the singers let that recording down. Vladimir Jurowski did a period instrument Totenfeier and Lieder eines fahrenden Gesellen. That's all I can remember off the top of my head.


Herreweghe also did a DLVDE, using Schoenberg's arrangement. I've not heard it so I can't say more.


----------



## Kiki

^^^

Thanks guys. I'll check out Herreweghe's 4th, as well as his DKW and Oskar Fried's 2nd.

I actually forgot about Jurowski/OAE's Totenfeier, which I have on CD. Unorthodox and a bit wayward, like most Jurowski records IMO.

Also have listened to Herreweghe's DLVDE. (Is the Ensemble Musique Oblique a period band? It probably is...) Interesting chamber version. Nice touch on the piano and those solo strings. I think Birgit Remmert in Der Abschied sounds sublime; but Hans Peter Blochwitz's lyrical, sometimes sensual, ways is not my cup of tea.


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## Art Rock

Apart from Blochwitz, we have similar reactions. Here are my notes:

_Das Lied von der Erde is scored for a massive orchestra. Arnold Schoenberg began to arrange it for chamber orchestra, reducing the orchestral forces to string and wind quintets, augmented by piano, celesta, harmonium and percussion. Schoenberg never finished this in his lifetime, and the arrangement was completed by Rainer Riehn in 1980. This severely reduced version has two obvious advantages: it is easier to arrange a performance, and there are more choices available for the singers. In particular the tenor, who does not have Wagner Heldentenor qualities to combat the usual stunning orchestral forces, and can show more expression than usual - as demonstrated very well on this recording by Hans Peter Blochwitz. And as good as Christa Ludwig's performances are, with Birgit Remmert I have less problems actually hearing the words. The disadvantage is of course that some of the lusciousness of Mahler's orchestral tapestry is unavoidably lost. On the other hand, it is stunning how much of the atmosphere of the original work is maintained in this bonsai version. In the end, I still clearly prefer the fully orchestrated versions, but this is well worth listening to._


----------



## Barbebleu

Enthusiast said:


> Herreweghe also did a DLVDE, using Schoenberg's arrangement. I've not heard it so I can't say more.


It is very good. Well worth hearing.


----------



## NeilP

Well, I haven't got a favourite as such, but I do enjoy listening to different recordings and picking up the varied performance of the soprano at the end.


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## DrSardonicus

Just dropping in to plug a rendition which I've not seen mentioned here: Charles Mackarras with Philharmonia and Sarah Cox (live).

(I'm perfectly amateur at critiquing classical music interpretations but...)

I love the way the tempos are played with in the first movement, it's spritely and pretty, but there's just enough 'ugliness' in the development to my taste. Someone in this thread said that even Mahler's joyful music evokes some pain - I hear a bit of that in this recording. Similarly the contrast between playful and pernicious in the 2nd movement is emphasised, the textures really come through. 

The third movement is serene and beautiful where it needs to be, and genuinely unsettling at the right moments. There's some solo violin glissandi which I don't recall hearing in other recordings too, about 8 minutes in. The abrupt 'opening of the gates of heaven' toward the end is as dramatic as its subject matter demands. As an aside I think the last three minutes or so of this movement contains some of the most stunning that Mahler ever wrote. Who's with me? 

I rather like the timbre of Sarah Cox's voice for the final movement too. More boy-like than some for sure. This movement isn't taken too slowly either.

Finally the sound quality is very good with superb textures and dynamics. I prefer a slightly drier, 'zoomed-in' sound, but only marginally so. They could've done the decent thing and cut out the coughing chorus between movements though.

Who else has heard Mackarras' 4th?


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## Azol

DrSardonicus said:


> As an aside I think the last three minutes or so of this movement contains some of the most stunning that Mahler ever wrote. Who's with me?


Most definitely! As I wrote before, a very hard one to pull off, requires a first-class orchestra with a very dedicated string section.


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## mbhaub

Azol said:


> Most definitely! As I wrote before, a very hard one to pull off, requires a first-class orchestra with a very dedicated string section.


What's really remarkable about those last three minutes, from the "opening of heaven" point, is that Mahler did it with what is, for him, a very small orchestra. No trombones at all and such incredible power. And you're right it takes a first-class string section. I've played it with an amateur group that didn't have the skill and it sounded awful. It also needs a conductor who is willing to really use the portamento indications to their fullest. So many try to omit it. I think Maazel in Vienna gets it perfect.


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## Malx

DrSardonicus said:


> Just dropping in to plug a rendition which I've not seen mentioned here: Charles Mackarras with Philharmonia and Sarah Cox (live).
> 
> (I'm perfectly amateur at critiquing classical music interpretations but...)
> 
> I love the way the tempos are played with in the first movement, it's spritely and pretty, but there's just enough 'ugliness' in the development to my taste. Someone in this thread said that even Mahler's joyful music evokes some pain - I hear a bit of that in this recording. Similarly the contrast between playful and pernicious in the 2nd movement is emphasised, the textures really come through.
> 
> The third movement is serene and beautiful where it needs to be, and genuinely unsettling at the right moments. There's some solo violin glissandi which I don't recall hearing in other recordings too, about 8 minutes in. The abrupt 'opening of the gates of heaven' toward the end is as dramatic as its subject matter demands. As an aside I think the last three minutes or so of this movement contains some of the most stunning that Mahler ever wrote. Who's with me?
> 
> I rather like the timbre of Sarah Cox's voice for the final movement too. More boy-like than some for sure. This movement isn't taken too slowly either.
> 
> Finally the sound quality is very good with superb textures and dynamics. I prefer a slightly drier, 'zoomed-in' sound, but only marginally so. They could've done the decent thing and cut out the coughing chorus between movements though.
> 
> Who else has heard Mackarras' 4th?


I have the Mackerras recording and agree it is underrated - I have dug out my copy and given it a spin this morning thanks to your mentioning it.
As usual I enjoyed it greatly and yet again wondered why I don't reach for it more often.


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## Fredrikalansson

Agree with Art Rock that the soprano makes or breaks the performance. Although a great soprano can't rescue sloppy, insensitive or misguided playing.

I'm most drawn to performances and voices that achieve a wide-eyed innocence. Here are my faves:

Abbado - von Stade 
Salonen - Hendricks
Haitink - Ameling 
Dark horse: Sejna - Tauberova


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## Heck148

Fredrikalansson said:


> Agree with Art Rock that the soprano makes or breaks the performance. Although a great soprano can't rescue sloppy, insensitive or misguided playing.


I disagree...the soprano only partakes on 1 mvt of the work...the orchestra performs some 45 mins or so of purely instrumental music before the voice enters....for me, the quality of woodwind (incl horn) playing is paramount....in fact, M4 might be considered his Concerto for WW5tet and Orchestra...lol!!
Really, the orchestra writing is brilliant and demanding...2nd or 3rd rate WW playing sinks a M4 performance for me, regardless of the soprano...


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## jim prideaux

My favourite Mahler symphony. It was my initial encounter with Mahler and the recording ( while not greeted with great regard by many) by Abbado and von Stade with the VPO on DG remains my personal favourite.

I am intrigued by the posts that precede this one. There frequently appears to be discussion of the relative merits of different sopranos while for me the symphony (and any performance of it) is defined by the earlier movements.


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## Heck148

jim prideaux said:


> I am intrigued by the posts that precede this one. There frequently appears to be discussion of the relative merits of different sopranos while for me the symphony (and any performance of it) is defined by the earlier movements.


Yes, my feeling as well...same goes for Beethoven Sym #9....it's an orchestra piece...the orchestra plays 3+ long movements for c45-50 mins before any voice is heard...yet people will base their preference on the quality of the tenor, or bass, or whatever...I don't get it...


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## wkasimer

Heck148 said:


> Yes, my feeling as well...same goes for Beethoven Sym #9....it's an orchestra piece...the orchestra plays 3+ long movements for c45-50 mins before any voice is heard...yet people will base their preference on the quality of the tenor, or bass, or whatever...I don't get it...


It's partly priorities, but it's also that the vocal contributions come at the end of these works - so if the singing isn't up to snuff, that's what the listener is likely to remember. And after I listen to Abravanel's recording, the heavenly singing of Netania Davrath is really all that I remember.


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## Heck148

wkasimer said:


> It's partly priorities, but it's also that the vocal contributions come at the end of these works - so if the singing isn't up to snuff, that's what the listener is likely to remember. .


That's certainly possible..but from the orchestra musicians' POV, it's rather discouraging....to play all of those movements, with difficult and/or exposed solos, soli, then have the entire performance judged by the sound of one voice in one movement is pretty much a downer....for me, I would be more likely to judge an M4 performance by the quality of the solo horn, oboe, violin, etc playing....or the entire woodwind or string section....they're working full-time, thru the whole piece.


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## MarkW

The first and third movements make or break both the Mahler 4 and the Beethoven Ninth.

(I always liked Szell's Mahler 4 expressly because of the precision of the playing -- even if the horn didn't have the most beautiful tone.)


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## Merl

Another 'dark horse' and excellent 4th.....


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## Heck148

MarkW said:


> (I always liked Szell's Mahler 4 expressly because of the precision of the playing -- even if the horn didn't have the most beautiful tone.)


Yes, Cleveland sounds great...terrific woodwind section, which is crucial for M4...Cleveland Horn I was Myron "Mike" Bloom, a great player, a lot of balls....
The great woodwind playing is a salient feature of my favorite M4s:
Reiner/CSO
Walter/NYPO (1945) - remarkably good sound!!


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## Allegro Con Brio

I tend to agree with those who think the first three movements are of most importance. Sometimes I don't even want to hear anything else after the ridiculously beautiful Adagio and I'm content to stop playing it there. I never did think the finale really worked. Which is why I'm a fan of the Klemperer. I generally like Schwarzkopf but her approach simply doesn't work in this context. Generally when I want to hear the finale I paste in Battle from the Maazel recording or Sampson from the new Vanska recording onto the end of a more characterful interpretation.


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## SearsPoncho

Maazel conducting the Vienna Philharmonic. Kathleen Battle in the final movement. Glorious. My favorite Mahler recording.


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## Marc

Merl said:


> Ive never seen that before, are you sure that's right, Marc? Even the quickest 3rd movements clock in at 17 minutes and that's from 'no-hanging-around-Svetlanov" and Mahler's assistant Walter. I'd love to hear someone get thru the 3rd movement in 12 mins just to hear what it would sound like. Lol


Many apologies for this late reaction. I can't be the judge if such a tempo would really work out well, but, like you, I'm curious. 
OTOH, the Adagietto of the 5th is another famous example. Pre-war Mengelberg clocked it just over 7 minutes, and others (like Haitink with the Berliner Phil) can make it last for almost 14 minutes. Almost twice as long.


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## Marc

Adding to this: on a (now gone) Dutch website I already mentioned this 'problem', and other members just reacted with "well, Mahler was wrong."


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## Simon23

My favorite records: Horenstein, Klemperer, Walter (with Seefried or Guiden).


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## Becca

I wonder if she gets two fees... :lol:






The Mahler 4th starts at about 64minutes


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## Rogerx

No wonder she didn't make the Amsterdam position.


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## HerbertNorman

I have just finished listening to a performance of Abbado with Wiener Philarmoniker and Von Stade as Soprano. I am no big Mahler fan and I am searching for connection with his music. I felt some in this performance... I perticularly like the woodwinds in this symphony...


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## Coach G

Mahler's 4th is, maybe, Mahler's best symphony, even if it is his shortest (or maybe BECAUSE it is his shortest!). 

The CBS recording by George Szell, the Cleveland Orchestra, and Judith Raskin ruined every other version of Mahler 4 for me. It's a recording that is perfectly seasoned. Then again, George Szell, was a master chef as well as a musician.


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## Rogerx

Almost unbeatable.


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## Knorf

Becca said:


> I wonder if she gets two fees... :lol:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Mahler 4th starts at about 64minutes


Thanks for linking this! Hugely enjoyable.


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## mparta

HerbertNorman said:


> I have just finished listening to a performance of Abbado with Wiener Philarmoniker and Von Stade as Soprano. I am no big Mahler fan and I am searching for connection with his music. I felt some in this performance... I perticularly like the woodwinds in this symphony...


I agree, I just listened to the 4th with Haitink/BPO/McNair and the performance was very fine but I still don't connect with this piece. Making the last movement work depends on a soprano who can hold her fire, requires a level of subtlety and restraint that is hard to find, the voice can't be too rich but everything needs to move. I don't know why I'm holding forth since I still don't get it. The sleigh bells don't help IMO.


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## MarkW

Marc said:


> Many apologies for this late reaction. I can't be the judge if such a tempo would really work out well, but, like you, I'm curious.
> OTOH, the Adagietto of the 5th is another famous example. Pre-war Mengelberg clocked it just over 7 minutes, and others (like Haitink with the Berliner Phil) can make it last for almost 14 minutes. Almost twice as long.


Apparently, the modern "tradition" of slow/slower/slowest adagiettos began with Bernstein's performance at the memorial service for RFK, and only went downhill from there.


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## Knorf

MarkW said:


> Apparently, the modern "tradition" of slow/slower/slowest adagiettos began with Bernstein's performance at the memorial service for RFK, and only went downhill from there.


And this is really frustrating, because the music was never intended to be a funeral ode, but rather written as a love song from Gustav to Alma.


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## Becca

IMO a noticeably slower than average 5th symphony adagietto destroys the symmetry of the symphony and is reason for me to pass on such performances.


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## MarkW

In one of his tell-all books, Leinsdorf (whose adagietto was reasonable), recalled being apprehended by a concertmaster prior to a first rehearsal, asking how fast he was going to take it, because they had recently had a bad experience. He had to assure him that it would be "playable."


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## thejewk

Since I started listening to Mahler a few months ago I've ended up with Abravanel with the Utah, Horenstein and the LPO, Karajan and Berliner, and my favourite is Benjamin Zander with Camilla Tilling and the Philharmonia Orchestra. Unfortunately the dynamics are a little wide for listening on speakers without high volume, but for headphones listening it has the perfect balance of lush and spicy, and the final movement is a triumph imo.


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## perdido34

Check out Raskin with Szell/Cleveland, a very fine performance that has great sound in its remastered edition.


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## haziz

One of only two Mahler symphonies that I actually enjoy, the other is his Symphony No. 2 (where I usually listen only to the orchestral [first 3 movements] section).

My favorite Mahler 4th by far is by the *Cleveland Orchestra conducted by Szell* with *Judith Raskin* as the singer.


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## PSchiefelbein

I have several Mahler 4ths in my collection and grew up with Szell/Raskin as my home base. Then, 5 or so years ago, I bought a cheap box of “Mahler-the Complete Recordings”. They were well chosen, but I was particularly intrigued by the choice of Horenstein/Price as I had not been aware that the recording existed. I thought I knew the piece well, but from the outset I knew that this was going in an unexpected direction: the tempo of the opening sleigh bells put me in mind of Frost’s “Stopping by the Woods on a Snowy Evening”. I was completely riveted by what followed, but it was the slow movement that left me stunned. By the end I had been transported to another world, another dimension, in touch with something primal and deep. For me this now represents the pinnacle of Horenstein’s many accomplishments and I encourage you, gentle reader, to seek it out. (The rest of the box, too, is well chosen and well worth the price.)


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## Junkner

I like this symphony, though it not my favorite Mahler, which is right now the 2ND with Klemperer. For the 4th, I like Szell and Kletzki, though the latter is hard to find on CD, which is what I listen to. I also like Maazel. I have Bernstein and Kubelik in sets which I have not heard yet. I would love find a new or like new copy of the Kletzki on CD. I traded mine long ago, and I have never replaced it.


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## Malx

Junkner said:


> I like this symphony, though it not my favorite Mahler, which is right now the 2ND with Klemperer. For the 4th, I like Szell and Kletzki, though the latter is hard to find on CD, which is what I listen to. I also like Maazel. I have Bernstein and Kubelik in sets which I have not heard yet. I would love find a new or like new copy of the Kletzki on CD. I traded mine long ago, and I have never replaced it.


Not easy to find new but on Amazon (UK) a marketplace seller has one available s/h unfortunately only (good) also if you do downloads Presto music can do it in mp3 or Flac. That is the EMI remastered 2 cd set with DVLE on the other disc.

Hope this is of some use.


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## mbhaub

I treasure my Kletzki recordings; the Mahler 4th and DLVDE are among the best ever. I need to get his M1. His recordings on Scheherazade and the Beethoven symphonies are brilliant, too. As a composer though...his symphonies are very tough nuts to crack and impossible to love.


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## MarkW

As I remember when I was learning Mahler in my teens, my first Fourth was from the local library and was quite satisfactory. Unfortunately, in later years all I could remember was that it was an Angel recording from those years when all their records had the same beige burlap jacket with a gold foil label. In recent years a knowledgeable CM friend told me it must have been Kletzki, which I then got the CD of (paired with Das Lied) and it was indeed as I remembered it.


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## CnC Bartok

Big fan of Kletzki here too. I never dismiss the baritone alternative in DLvdE as dull or monochrome, and Fischer-Dieskau is in wonderful voice, both here and with Bernstein years later.

His Beethoven on Supraphon is one of the best old cycles out there too!

In terms of Mahler 4ths, I'm adding both Fischer brothers' recordings to my favourites list. Ivan has slightly better sound, and maybe Adam is a touch straight-laced, but I found his Düsseldorf recording immensely satisfying, and marginally the finer of the two.


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## Kiki

^

I admire the Fischer bothers' Mahler very much. In No. 4, Ádám's idiomatic dynamics/tempo changes are more pronouced than Iván's; while Iván's sound (in both Budapest and Amsterdam) is sweeter, more beautiful and has got more fun.

Um, looks like I need to investigate Kletzki's Beethoven. Thanks for the tip!


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## Enthusiast

Junkner said:


> I like this symphony, though it not my favorite Mahler, which is right now the 2ND with Klemperer. For the 4th, I like Szell and Kletzki, though the latter is hard to find on CD, which is what I listen to. I also like Maazel. I have Bernstein and Kubelik in sets which I have not heard yet. I would love find a new or like new copy of the Kletzki on CD. I traded mine long ago, and I have never replaced it.


For UK, there seem to be some not too expensive on eBay.


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## Malx

I'm not sure if this has been mentioned but I reckon its well worth a listen - Erwin Stein's chamber reduction of the symphony for fifteen players and soprano.


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## Merl

As Knorf will agree, Gatti's RCO 4th is very good too.


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## jim prideaux

listening now to Boulez in Cleveland performing the 4th.....had listened to a number from this particular cycle and always been really impressed...this is no exception!


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## Granate

New finding on YouTube. An In-House recording of an LPO Mahler Symphony No.4 conducted by Klaus Tennstedt. The soprano is the most affected by the kind of recording, but nevertheless it's just as well-recorded as other radio recordings. I think it really beats the quality of the studio recording and I just wish that the BBC had recorded it (I have no hopes because I find nothing on the internet). This should complete my list of Mahler Tennstedt recordings I enjoy. Listened while watching that Italy video.


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## JohnP

Add me to the list of Kletzki lovers.


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## jim prideaux

Abbado/Fleming/BPO.

Listened to this and thoroughly enjoyed it but the Boulez still remains my 'favourite'.......


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## hammeredklavier

0:30


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## Aries

hammeredklavier said:


> 0:30


Interessting. For me No. 1 and 4 are not very interessting Mahler symphonies. I would play No. 9, 5, 8, 2 and 6 more often.


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## Enthusiast

I've listened to three relatively historical recordings of the 4th in the last couple of days - Mengelberg, Barbirolli (BBC) and Kletzki - and found all three to be really rewarding and even to be available in fairly good sound. I must remind myself of some more recent ones - I remember valuing the Boulez and Fisher (both brothers) recordings highly - but am not sure I will find them as basically satisfying.


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## Allegro Con Brio

Yes, the Kletzki is superb; relatively straightforward but gorgeously played, especially Dennis Brain on horn in one of his last recordings. However, I still have a strong allegiance to Klemperer’s version with the same orchestra, which seems to be frequently underlooked for some reason. His brisk tempo in the Adagio works perfectly for me, though Schwarzkopf in the finale doesn’t sound in the least like a child. Barbirolli, Kubelik, Mengelberg, and Ivan Fischer are other favorites of mine; but I recently discovered the Abravanel and was amazed. Why is it that these recordings are not often talked about? They sound remarkable for their age, and the playing of the Utah orchestra is surprisingly great, with some especially delightful folksy, twangy woodwinds. Abravanel clearly understands the music and lets it unfold with real character. And Netania Davrath comes the closest to actually sounding like a child that I’ve heard.


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## HenryPenfold

Allegro Con Brio said:


> Yes, the Kletzki is superb; relatively straightforward but gorgeously played, especially Dennis Brain on horn in one of his last recordings. However, I still have a strong allegiance to Klemperer's version with the same orchestra, which seems to be frequently underlooked for some reason. His brisk tempo in the Adagio works perfectly for me, though Schwarzkopf in the finale doesn't sound in the least like a child. Barbirolli, Kubelik, Mengelberg, and Ivan Fischer are other favorites of mine; but I recently discovered the Abravanel and was amazed. Why is it that these recordings are not often talked about? They sound remarkable for their age, and the playing of the Utah orchestra is surprisingly great, with some especially delightful folksy, twangy woodwinds. Abravanel clearly understands the music and lets it unfold with real character. And Netania Davrath comes the closest to actually sounding like a child that I've heard.


I've been resisting the urge to buy the Kletzki, I really don't need another M4! But I hadn't realised Dennis Brain was on this recording - I don't think I can resist now!


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## HenryPenfold

Earlier this morning ...........

Mahler 4 - Klemperer Philharmonia Schwarzkopf

My goto just ahead of Kubelik and Karajan.

Btw, if anyone ever goes for this set, try to get it on the French EMI (shown), it sounds much better than the others.


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