# Sergei Prokofiev



## Rondo

*Prokofiev*

Among some of the best few Russian composers would definitely be Prokofiev. I have to be honest, I don't listen to his music that often (just hearing his first piano concerto again for the...3rd or 4th time  I thought to start a thread on him).

To mention some favorites: _The Love for Three Oranges,_ _Romeo and Juliet_ (I only have excerpts, so any recommendations for a full album would be helpful), Pno Concerto 1 in D flat, and symphonies 5 and 7.


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## david johnson

my favorite prokofiev symphony is #5.

dj


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## Guest

Oddly enough, you're pretty safe with any of the complete performances of Prokofiev's Romeo & Juliet, Maazel's classic from the seventies (I think), Ozawa's, Gergiev's, Previn's, Mogrelia's. All different. All good.


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## Lexophile

I just bought a Prokofiev CD the other day. I really enjoy it. It has The Love of Three Oranges and the Classical Symphony. It's very lovely.


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## BuddhaBandit

One of my favorite Prokofiev compositions is his *Toccata* for piano. It's avery energetic but slightly darker piece.

@ Rondo and Some_Guy: weirdly enough, *Romeo and Juliet* is my least favorite Prokofiev piece (except maybe *Peter and the Wolf*). It just doesn't measure up to the symphonies and the piano concertos (not to mention the solo piano works).


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## Rondo

_Peter and the Wolf_ would be my least favorite. R&J may not measure up to the symphonies and concertos, but (just like many, many other ballets) it's dern fun to listen to!


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## Chi_townPhilly

BuddhaBandit said:


> One of my favorite Prokofiev compositions is his *Toccata* for piano. It's a very energetic but slightly darker piece.


Now, _that's_ an imaginative citation. I have that work on some old piece of vinyl somewhere. So... there are some memories tied to the mention of it.

I've previously said "the older I get, the more I appreciate Prokofiev." Yeah... I like symphonies 1 and 5- but my favorite Prokofiev composition is *Violin Concerto #1.*


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## Isola

My favourite has to be piano concerto No.2, followed by No.3. Also Classical Symphony and the piano sonatas.


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## Edward Elgar

Romeo and Juliet has always been one of my favourites, but I've recently heard the piano concertos. They are really well composed and the 3rd is good, but I've fallen in love with the 1st! It's so neoclassical it's orgasmic!


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## shsherm

I attended a performance of Romeo And Juliet by the New York City ballet around 1974. I was fortunate enough to see Fernando Bujones dance in the role of Romeo. He died much too young. Sometimes it is gratifying to actually see the ballet that the music was written for.
The melodies in the 7th symphony are very lovely. I wish a modern day Bruckner would come along and develop them more fully than Prokofiev did. Variations on these themes would be very enjoyable for me to hear. I'm not sure if I ever heard the 2nd, 3rd, or 4th symphonies. Thet are not played often.


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## Yagan Kiely

> weirdly enough, *Romeo and Juliet* is my least favorite Prokofiev piece (except maybe *Peter and the Wolf*). It just doesn't measure up to the symphonies and the piano concertos (not to mention the solo piano works).


Simplicity does work in the hands of someone who can do it.


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## Guest

shsherm said:


> I'm not sure if I ever heard the 2nd, 3rd, or 4th symphonies. The[y] are not played often.


Do you rely entirely on concerts or radio for listening? (It only takes one recording of a work and voilà, you can listen to it as often as you please.)

If you had ever heard the second or third, I think you'd remember that. The second is Prokofiev at his most energetic, with the tightest harmonies and the most pounding of rhythms ...at first. Then there's a long theme and variations section that covers the gamut of styles he was capable of, including the tight harmonies and pounding rhythms. I think it would have gotten your attention, any way. (If you like that, you'll also need to get the second piano concerto and the Scythian suite as well. In fact, even if you don't like it, you should still get the second piano concerto and the Scythian suite. You will thank me sooner or later for recommending those. )

The third is a remix of licks from _The Fiery Angel._ (I'm old enough to have seen the title Englished to _The Flaming Angel,_ too, right around the time that "flaming" was narrowing down to only one meaning!) It's a full-on symphony, you know, with development and recapitulation and all the rest, but he did get a lot of flack for just redoing his opera for the symphony hall.

And then, when he redid _The Prodigal Son_ the same way, in the fourth symphony, he got even more flack. The fourth exists in two very different versions, too, the opus 47 and the opus 47/112. A lot of people prefer the later version, I'm not sure why. It's longer and louder and bigger in every way. But those attributes are not necessarily better. I like the lean opus 47 better for what it's worth. There are recordings of both, sometimes both on the same CD. I'd get both myself, just because. (I rarely ever listen to the opus 112 any more, that's the only help I can be if you're trying to decide. I still recommend having both. In fact, get _The Prodigal Son_ ballet, too, why not?)


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## shsherm

No. 1 Obviously typing is not my forte. 
2. I attend a large number of concerts because I prefer live music to recorded. Also as soon as I buy high end audio equipment, it is very soon made obsolete.
3. I enjoy most of the music written by Prokofiev that I ever heard and I do depend on concerts and the radio for much of what I hear.
4. Peter and the Wolf is gateway music and may have influenced many young people to start enjoying and appreciating classical music.
5. I have most likely heard the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th symphonies but the 1st, 5th, 6th, and 
7th are played a lot more often in both concerts and on the radio. I don't even want to hear the 1st because I place it in the overplayed Warhorse category.


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## Edward Elgar

I've just got into the 3rd piano concerto!

Does anyone else think that the second mvt. theme and variations is immense?!


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## 3rdplanetsounds

I always think of Prokofiev's compositions as a selection of parades of other composers music..a bit like listening to Ravel,their music are a combination and aggregation of music from their piers.
Alot of the time I feel his music exaggerates to the point of 'micky taking' in this context.
He can't seem to write music without being 'up front' and 'in your face'.His quieter and supposedly sutler passages of music never seem to match that of Shoshtakovich.His Symphonies have never really inspired me but his more popular works are always nice to hear,my favorite being his Violin concerto.
He's OK,but I'm never sure what his music has ever meant in terms of personality and uniqueness in regards to other composers music of the same time.


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## Rmac58

Rondo said:


> Among some of the best few Russian composers would definitely be Prokofiev. I have to be honest, I don't listen to his music that often (just hearing his first piano concerto again for the...3rd or 4th time  I thought to start a thread on him).
> 
> To mention some favorites: _The Love for Three Oranges,_ _Romeo and Juliet_ (I only have excerpts, so any recommendations for a full album would be helpful), Pno Concerto 1 in D flat, and symphonies 5 and 7.


Thanks for reminding me of Three Oranges, it's been a while since I've heard it. The cd I have also contains CHOUTOp. 21a, and LE PAS D'ACIER Op.41a. All suites on Chandos 8729.
Scottish National Orchestra, Neeme Jarvi conducting.
Putting it in the computer now.


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## Guest

Rmac58,

If you love your ears, for ears sake get the complete pieces!! _Love for Three Oranges_ is a spectacular opera, an absurdist, comic precursor to Ligeti's _Le Grand Macabre._ I'm not exaggerating. Well, not too much. I like the Gergiev best, even though it's in Russian (the libretto was originally in French).

And both _Chout_ and _Le pas d'acier_ are available in their balletic completeness, both with Jurowski on cpo. (There's a recording of Chout with Rozhdestvenky, too. I'm guessing that the five used ones listed on Amazon, from $7.03 up, are this one. All the listing identifies is the label, Melodiya.)

They're both fine.

3rd,

Your post makes me wonder how old you are. No, I'm not expecting you to say, but I wonder because when I was first starting out listening to classical music, I always found Prokofiev's music to be shallow and empty. At first. In time, I got to where I would just ignore my first impressions of each piece, because I knew I'd get to the point where I would enjoy it immensely. (Eventually that changed to liking pieces at first hearing. Don't know why first--and sometimes second and third and fourth--hearings were so unrewarding. Some glitch in my listening, I concluded.)

In short, don't give up on Prokofiev, or should I say "don't give up on yourself"?


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## Rmac58

some guy said:


> Rmac58,
> 
> Your post makes me wonder how old you are. No, I'm not expecting you to say, but I wonder because when I was first starting out listening to classical music, I always found Prokofiev's music to be shallow and empty. At first. In time, I got to where I would just ignore my first impressions of each piece, because I knew I'd get to the point where I would enjoy it immensely. (Eventually that changed to liking pieces at first hearing. Don't know why first--and sometimes second and third and fourth--hearings were so unrewarding. Some glitch in my listening, I concluded.)
> 
> In short, don't give up on Prokofiev, or should I say "don't give up on yourself"?


I'll be 50 this year, and have been enjoying classical music for twenty of those. Initially as a break from commercial radio, rock and roll. 
The local public station has helped quite a bit by some of their shows, Adventures in good music with Carl Haas, comes to mind.
I don't delve into much dissection, just enjoy the fruits of composers.
I have hundreds of cd's, haven't made a direct purchase in years. If anyone is familiar with Cedille Records out of Chicago, they have a program to have their releases sent to you when they come out, at a decent price. Every now and again I get a cd in the mail. I have every recording they have produced, just received #103 a week ago.

I heard Three Oranges in the car, and with a name like that, I was able to remember it! I'm a fan the Russian big four, Prokofiev, Stravinsky, Rimsky-Korsakov and Shostakovich. But my taste certainly doesn't stop there. Heard some new Joan Tower, may look into that.

I understand the early recordings on Melodiya are, well, not that good. I do have a two cd set of Shostakovich on that label, has been remastered. Sounds just fine.
I also have some on Reference Recordings, and they have some sort of trick in their recording I like, pipe organ when I feel like rattling the walls!

Not a big fan of Liegti, but it's been years since I've listened, so who knows.


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## Air

Half a year ago, I would shut my ears when I heard twentieth century music. That was when i discovered Prokofiev.
You have to admit there is something magical in Prokofiev's music that makes you never grow tired of it. I mean, how can one not just fall in love with those beautifully sarcastic tunes, the color, and the flow of his music?
Recently, I have fallen in love with Prokofiev's piano works.

Toccata, Op. 11
Suggestion diabolique
Prokofiev sonata 6 and 7 (Listen to Richter!)
Prokofiev piano concerto 1

But over all, I can't stop listening to prokofiev's 3rd piano concerto. I mean, listen to the Argerich version and you'll know what I mean. The first movement: there's that first theme which makes you lift your eyes to heaven. Then with the fiery uprising ending in this INCREDIBLE bitingly sarcastic second theme. And that's just the exposition! And HOLY COW! The third movement is SO CRAZY. Banging chords every eight of a second in seemingly random places. And plus, glissandos up and down, up and down. I get a headache listening to that, BUT I LOOOVE it!

Feel free to post your thoughts on this AWESOMELY COOL russian maniac!!!


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## YsayeOp.27#6

airad2 said:


> Prokofiev sonata 6 and 7 (Listen to Richter!)


Sokolov does a very good work with the seventh sonata too.

Gavrilov's general tempi at the last movement of the eight sonata is just frightening.



airad2 said:


> I mean, listen to the Argerich version and you'll know what I mean.


The work simply belongs to her.


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## Air

You know what I heard? Apparently, she was living with a roommate who was learning the piece. At that time, she had never heard or played the piece. The roommate would practice the song after midnight when Martha was sleeping. And then Martha would wake up and after a cigarette she would just go to the piano and play it PERFECTLY, even correcting her roommates mistakes! I think the concerto's become like her signature song. I highly doubt she would even mess up playing the song with her eyes closed.


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## YsayeOp.27#6

airad2 said:


> And then Martha would wake up and after a cigarette she would just go to the piano and play it PERFECTLY, even correcting her roommates mistakes!


I can't confirm or reject that story. However, I must say I hate the kind of myths like "he/she would play at the piano (or take her violin) and play it perfectly, without any mistake" and I am completely upset when someone says "he/she/you have a gift". Remarks like those are completely disrespectful to the real dedication of the artists: hours and hours of study and technical exercises. A guy I know was at a time very sad because the long hours of piano practice were consuming his life; in a master class he took with Argerich he expressed his woes and do you know what she said "that's how I made it, 10 or more hours a day".

Being interviewed, Bruno Gelber said "if I don't study 8 hours a day, every day of the week, the _magic _is not there".

Jascha Heifetz could be heard playing the first few notes of Saint-Saens Introduction et rondeau capriccioso over and over, and over again, until they would come out exactly as he wished.


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## jhar26

airad2 said:


> You know what I heard? Apparently, she was living with a roommate who was learning the piece. At that time, she had never heard or played the piece. The roommate would practice the song after midnight when Martha was sleeping. And then Martha would wake up and after a cigarette she would just go to the piano and play it PERFECTLY, even correcting her roommates mistakes! I think the concerto's become like her signature song. I highly doubt she would even mess up playing the song with her eyes closed.


She tells that story in the "Evening Talks" documentary - but she said she picked up the mistakes her roommate made and made them herself when she first started playing the piece.


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## jhar26

YsayeOp.27#6 said:


> I must say I hate the kind of myths like "he/she would play at the piano (or take her violin) and play it perfectly, without any mistake" and I am completely upset when someone says "he/she/you have a gift". Remarks like those are completely disrespectful to the real dedication of the artists: hours and hours of study and technical exercises. A guy I know was at a time very sad because the long hours of piano practice were consuming his life; in a master class he took with Argerich he expressed his woes and do you know what she said "that's how I made it, 10 or more hours a day".


But she (or other great musicians) obviously HAVE a gift which they develop with practice. You may practice tennis for 10 hours a day, but if you ain't special you ain't gonna be Roger Federer. But yes - we have to respect and admire all the (very) hard work that all these musicians have put in to become as great as they are. Everyone of us has his or her preferences, but they are all so very, very good.


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## bexterlee

I too recently discovered Prokofiev's piano concertos and am now utterly hooked! I've bought the new re-issues of Neeme Jarvi's Chandos orchestral recordings (really rather cheap on Europadisc website) and now working my way through them. I can't believe I hadn't realised the beauty of his music sooner! My classical listening pleasure has been transformed!


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## andrevazpereira

2nd piano concerto is the "Concerto". Best Piano concerto ever wroten and with a 7 minute cadenza. Listen to Toradze and Gergiev version, is the best ànd i got to see the in Royal Albert hall last year!! I`ve played the 3rd sonata (brutaly dificult) and 8 fugitive visions. It`s one of the moast dificult composers to memorise (apart from Bach). There is also a Naxos CD (i have it) withe Prokofiev playing the diabolic suggestion, 3rd piano concerto and other pieces.

It`s one of my favourite composers.


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## YsayeOp.27#6

andrevazpereira said:


> There is also a Naxos CD (i have it) withe Prokofiev playing the diabolic suggestion, 3rd piano concerto and other pieces.


It's a pity Naxos didn't include the short Fantasy on Rimsky-Korsakov's Scheherazade.


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## Elaryad

One of my favourite composers together with Shostakovich.
From Prokofiev I have the Sinfonia Concertante in E minor Op.125 played by Rostropovich. It's a wonderful piece. 
The sonatas for cello and piano Op. 119 are also remarkable.
I'm very enthusiastic about Russian composers. I like their unique style (whatever "style" means, but I'm perfectly sure about "unique").


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## oisfetz

IMHO he wrote the best ballet, and some of the best russian piano music of the 20th.century


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## confuoco

oisfetz said:


> IMHO he wrote the best ballet, and some of the best russian piano music of the 20th.century


Yes, I think in comparison with Shostakovich, Prokofiev was more confident in kind of heart-lighted music. I think his ballets, piano music (and in my honest opinion even concertos) are better than Shotakovich's, but not so symphonies, of course. I think, this pair can be likened to Mozart - Beethoven. One was maybe more talented from nature, but another had more what to say as artist.


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## Tapkaara

Prokofiev is a great composer, though sometimes challenging.

My favorite Prokofiev piece is Alexander Nevsky. I never tire of this work.

The 3rd Piano Concerto is truly amazing...I'm going to listen to it later now!

I've read through half of Prokofiev on Prokofiev, the composer's autobiography. He talks about growing up in Russia and how be became exposed to the piano and music in general. It's a great story.


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## Kezza

I just saw his violin concerto live and it's really nice. I think it has a lot of room to show expression etc. Just good all round


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## Elaryad

Lucky you *Kezza*! I think I love more and more the Prokofiev works. Probably you should know this already but it's a nice source of information about this wonderful composer http://www.prokofiev.org/


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## altiste

*chamber music*

I'm familiar with Prokofiev's String Quartet No.2 as I performed it a while ago now. It's a bit uneven in that the first movement is not the greatest. It's a bit workmanlike with an unrelenting rhythm plodding along, however the second and third movements make up for it. They are really inspired, exquisite melodies in the 2nd and wild textures in the 3rd.

There's also an interesting quintet for oboe, clarinet, violin, viola and double bass which I've played. it's a multi-movement work. At the time this inspired me to write a 3 movement work of the same instrumentation (Diversions).

Prokofiev's Symphony No.3 is in my opinion a great symphonic work, derived from material out of his opera "The Fiery Angel".


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## Zombo

Prokofiev is an amazing composer.

To me, his masterpiece is the 2nd piano concerto.


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## Moldyoldie

Zombo said:


> Prokofiev is an amazing composer.
> 
> To me, his masterpiece is the 2nd piano concerto.


I'm not sure what constitutes a "masterpiece", but I will say it's probably my favorite Prokofiev work.  Fast or slow, it rocks my world!


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## R-F

Martha Argerich's recordings of Prokofiev's 3rd Piano Concerto and his Toccata have to be my favourite recordings just now. I've only been listening to classical music for a couple of years, but when I started I never thought Prokofiev's music would appeal to me. Now, although I havn't actually listened to that much of his work, I love his music. 
I heard a suite of Romeo and Juliet in concert and really enjoyed it, so I might buy a recording of it.


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## Ciel_Rouge

I recently discovered this piece:






called Dance of the Knights. I read it comes from his Romeo and Juliet. I have the impression it has been played a lot in advertisements etc. - which of course does not diminish its value by any means. It is the only Prokofiev piece that I enjoy so far - that might change as I discover more...


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## Rondo

Ciel_Rouge said:


> ...Dance of the Knights. I read it comes from his Romeo and Juliet. I have the impression it has been played a lot in advertisements etc. -


Yes, an old credit card commercial featuring the NY Philharmonic--if my memory serves me correctly.


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## Habib

*Prokofiev & Shostakovich*



confuoco said:


> Yes, I think in comparison with Shostakovich, Prokofiev was more confident in kind of heart-lighted music. I think his ballets, piano music (and in my honest opinion even concertos) are better than Shotakovich's, but not so symphonies, of course. I think, this pair can be likened to Mozart - Beethoven. One was maybe more talented from nature, but another had more what to say as artist.


I don't think it's fair to compare the Prokofiev and Shostakovich. I agree that some of Prokofiev's music seems light hearted in comparison, but I think that sometimes Shostakovich took himself way too seriously. I guess that one the whole, Prokofiev's cycle of 7 symphonies do not match the profundity of Shostakovich's 15 but the former did write some great ones like No. 5 especially. Once you listen to it, especially the slow movement that seems to describe the experience of living under a dictatorship so well (that's what it says to me), you cannot dismiss Prokofiev's symphonic talents. And his violin concertos seem to be more compact and get more to the point than Shostakovich's longer and seemingly more laboured efforts. But that's just my personal opinion.

I think if you look at it, both composers were great at what they did in the times they did it.


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## JTech82

I love Prokofiev. He's one of my favorites.

Romeo and Juliet, Cinderella, all of his symphonies are just fantastic. Love his work.


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## shsherm

Peter And The Wolf is gateway music and I think I had heard of Prokofiev when I was 4 or 5 years old.


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## R-F

For me, with Prokofiev, it's about getting the right balance. There are a lot of pieces that I absolutely love, putting Prokofiev up with my favourite composers, then there are other pieces that I just can't take at all. I was wondering if anyone could recommend any more of his music I might enjoy. My favourite pieces are:

Symphony No. 5 (2nd and 4th movements especially) 
Romeo and Juliet Suites
Piano Sonatas 6 & 7 (last movements of each especially)
Piano Concertos 2 & 3
Toccata in D minor
Cinderella Suite

I also don't mind:

Symphony No. 1
Peter and the Wolf
Lieutenant Kije 

There might be more, I can't think of any just now!


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## Taneyev

IMO, Sergei was the best ballet music composer of the 20th.century, the best Russian after Tchaikovsky and one of the best ever.


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## Sid James

Taneyev said:


> IMO, Sergei was the best ballet music composer of the 20th.century, the best Russian after Tchaikovsky and one of the best ever.


Yes, his ballets were groundbreaking. As where his concertos and symphonies. His music often had a hard, astringent edge but he could also express lyricism and tenderness. I also think he was an iconoclast, pioneering new ways of musical expression, especially in his earlier works of the late 10's and 20's.

It is ironic, and sad, that he died within 24 hours of the Soviet dictator Stalin. Death at this time robbed him of enjoying some of the relative freedoms artists would enjoy under Khruschev. It would have been interesting how he would have developed his style under the new regime, given that he was often worried during the Stalin years as to how his works would be accepted. This is really apparent in his late symphonies, in which he returned to expressing ideas with more economy and simplicity, compared to his earlier trailblazing efforts.


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## Sid James

Prokofiev was a great iconoclast - so many of his compositions set new standards and turned the old forms on their head. This is especially the case with his earlier violin and piano concertos.

He is one of my favourite composers. Everything he composed still sounds new and fresh today. I think his output can be divided into two main periods, the earlier experimental phases when he was abroad & the later more melodic period after he returned to the USSR. Some might say that it was a bad move for him to go back to live in the USSR, in the mid 1930s, right at the time when Stalin was conducting his purges. But despite the restrictions, he still composed some excellent works, like the film music & later cantata called _*Alexander Nevsky*_. It's one of the great moments in music when the soprano enters after the battle & sings about the devastation of war. So topical for the time, with WWII raging on, and yet still relevant today.

Of his earlier works, I especially like _*Piano & Violin Concertos Nos. 1, the Love for Three Oranges Suite *_(there is much more to it than the famous march!), the dissonant & brutal _*Scythian Suite *_(Glazunov walked out on its premiere, said it was damaging his ears or something), and the marvellous *Visions Fugitives*.

I think it's somewhat unfair to compare him to Shostakovich, since Prokofiev died within 24 hours of Stalin, and so was not able to enjoy the relaxation of artistic restrictions later under Khruschev. It would have been very interesting indeed to see what he would have composed with a bit more freedom, but fate would rob him of this chance.


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## Lisztfreak

I haven't heard much Prokofiev. Those works I have heard, I divide into three categories: those I love (Piano Concertos Nos. 1,2,5, Violin Sonata No.2, Classical Symphony), those I don't like at all (Piano Concerto No.3, Russian Overture), and those I'll have to re-listen a couple of times to get them properly (Piano Concerto No.4, Violin Sonata No.1, Symphony No.5, Double Sonata).


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## JTech82

Lisztfreak said:


> I haven't heard much Prokofiev. Those works I have heard, I divide into three categories: those I love (Piano Concertos Nos. 1,2,5, Violin Sonata No.2, Classical Symphony), those I don't like at all (Piano Concerto No.3, Russian Overture), and those I'll have to re-listen a couple of times to get them properly (Piano Concerto No.4, Violin Sonata No.1, Symphony No.5, Double Sonata).


You haven't heard Prokofiev until you hear his "Romeo and Juliet." Check this one out:










This is the version to own, though Ozawa and Tilson Thomas give good reading of this masterpiece as well.


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## R-F

What do you all think of Prokofiev's orchestration? It has been put down by a lot of people, but I think it can be very colourful sometimes. Too me, it does sometimes seem a little sloppy, but pieces like Romeo and Juliet and his 5th Symphony completely go against this idea. In comparison to someone like Shostakovich, I think Shostakovich's orchestration is tidier, but Prokofiev's is much more imaginative.

I recently listened to Alexander Nevsky and the Scythian Suite. Both very exciting, but not my favourite Prokofiev. 


JTech, I'll have to check out that recording of Romeo and Juliet sometime, if my budget will allow it!


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## Lisztfreak

Thanks for your recommendation, JTech!


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## Air

Lisztfreak said:


> ...those I don't like at all (Piano Concerto No.3...


How dare you!  I know I'm supposed to respect your opinion, but.... I hope THIS will change your mind.


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## Edward Elgar

Meh, the second movement of Piano Concerto No.3 can get quite tedious. Let's admit, not the best example of theme and variations ever composed. Piano Concerto No.1 is pure Prokofiev bliss for me.


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## Lisztfreak

Love watching Martha's fingers... they seem so unnaturally light and flexible, as though she's just touching the keyboard at random, and yet the playing is no less than perfect.

And I recognised the conductor! Saw him last November here in Zagreb, a fabulous concert. Nelson Freire also played then.

But I still find this concerto less eloquent than the others. It's too... screeching. I am the problem, most likely...


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## JoeGreen

R-F said:


> In comparison to someone like Shostakovich, I think Shostakovich's orchestration is tidier, but Prokofiev's is much more imaginative.


I feel exactly the same way about Prokofiev's orchestration.

My favorite works will always be his 
_Symphonie Classique_ 
_Pour L'amour de Trois Oranges_
_Symphonies 5 &7 _
_Peter and the Wolf_
_Dreams, Op. 6_

I haven't heard _Romeo and Juliette_ yet, but since I hear many good things about I will soon.


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## R-F

Edward Elgar said:


> Meh, the second movement of Piano Concerto No.3 can get quite tedious. Let's admit, not the best example of theme and variations ever composed. Piano Concerto No.1 is pure Prokofiev bliss for me.





Edward Elgar said:


> Does anyone else think that the second mvt. theme and variations is immense?!


 A blatant contradiction! On the same thread!


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## Edward Elgar

Ha! Ha! Good observation! Yes, I used to like it but now the pleasure I previously gained from it has dwindled into mild indifference.


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## Lisztfreak

Let's say you meant 'immense(ly boring)', Elgar.


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## handlebar

I own the Jarvi set by Chandos and admire it greatly as well as my latest Gergiev set. The Jarvi seems better overall though with Gergiev good in Symphony #4 and 5. I need an updated set of the concertos though.

Jim


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## Lisztfreak

Is Vladimir Krainev a good Prokofiev pianist? Anyone heard his interpretations?


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## R-F

Edward Elgar said:


> Ha! Ha! Good observation! Yes, I used to like it but now the pleasure I previously gained from it has dwindled into mild indifference.


No worrys!  I actually do that all the time. In fact, if I like something a lot on first listening chances are that I'll lose interest in it fairly quickly!

Also, the first movement is my favourite part of the Prokofiev 3.


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## Weston

Hey, Sergei. I listened to your _Cello concerto in E minor, Op 58_ today at work. It's a single movement piece, or maybe the movements run together. I understand it's an earlier version of the _"Symphony Concerto," Op. 125,_ but I am not familiar with that more famous work.

Tell me, was the cadenza near the end written out or does the performer have free reign over it? The cadenza I heard I thought was sucky if you'll pardon the 21st century American slang. It just seemed like so much virtuoso noodling. Was I missing something?

I do love the various orchestral suites, ballet suites, and film scores though.


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## emiellucifuge

I love the first symphony. It defines his light-hearted playfulness


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## Mirror Image

emiellucifuge said:


> I love the first symphony. It defines his light-hearted playfulness


Prokofiev's "Symphony No. 5" is my favorite. It's such a dark work full of harmonic and melodic twists and turns.


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## emiellucifuge

I like it too,

Have you heard the 7th?


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## Air

Sorry, but the 2nd and the 6th are my favorite. The 3rd, 5th, and 7th would be my next choices.


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## emiellucifuge

The 6th is great too!


----------



## Mirror Image

emiellucifuge said:


> I like it too,
> 
> Have you heard the 7th?


I've heard them all, but the 5th is my favorite. I'm not a big fan of his symphonies though. I enjoy his concerti and ballets much more, especially "Romeo and Juliet." What a piece of music!


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## Sid James

Weston said:


> Hey, Sergei. I listened to your _Cello concerto in E minor, Op 58_ today at work. It's a single movement piece, or maybe the movements run together. I understand it's an earlier version of the _"Symphony Concerto," Op. 125,_ but I am not familiar with that more famous work.
> 
> Tell me, was the cadenza near the end written out or does the performer have free reign over it? The cadenza I heard I thought was sucky if you'll pardon the 21st century American slang. It just seemed like so much virtuoso noodling. Was I missing something?...


I've recently become acquainted with the_ Symphony-Concerto Op. 125_, the Rostropovich/Sargent recording. I haven't heard the earlier _Concerto_ proper, but in the liner notes it does say that Prokofiev did rework that to produce the _Symphony-Concerto_, as you say. I'm pretty sure that in the latter work, Rostropovich played Prokofiev's cadenzas.

The _Symphony-Concerto _is quite a complex work, some say it's overtly long. But I like the experimental nature of it, indeed, it shows what direction he was taking before his death. I recently saw the episode on _Classical Destinations _DVD dealing with Shostakovich & Prokofiev's & they played another amazing late work, the _Sonata for two violins_. This will be something I hope to get, his chamber music (what I've heard of it) is also superb. I think that he had so much more to give the world, but like many composers (Bartok, Hindemith, Berg) he was taken from us way too early.

& in that DVD, I learned that Prokofiev's wife, who was Jewish, was sent to the gulags by Stalin. Even though Prokofiev tried to intervene & save her, this was to no avail. It just makes me very angry with Stalin - his bust is still alongside the wall of Red Square, as the DVD showed. It should be tossed in the trash can. But maybe the authorities want it to be a reminder of this horrible tyrant? Anyhow, it was noted that Prokofiev's wife survived her incarceration, and actually lived well into her 90's. How's that for a miraculous story?...


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## Padawan

Just heard Piano Concerto #3 In C for the first time today – very nice piece.


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## emiellucifuge

Yes it is, the Scherzo is unbelievable


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## starry

I find Prokofiev rather cold sounding at times. Of course I don't dislike it all but I'm not sure he should have the place in 20th century music that he is sometimes given (probably because of bias to the first half of that century).


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## emiellucifuge

I disagree with you Staryy

He is my favorite 20th century composer. He has such a lyrical tongue-in cheek style I love it.

Listen and Listen and Listen again to the 5th symphony - you wont regret it.


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## Weston

I listened to his three Cinderella Suites at work this week and I didn't find them cold. I did however notice a tendency in Prokofiev and many other C20 composers to use an inordinate amount of percussion that makes a "whack!" sound, like two planks whacked together. (I have forgotten the name of this instrument.) It got to be so pervasive I almost found it annoying. They also use a lot of "tock" sounds which I know is a woodblock.

Why would C20 composers favor this limited instrument over say a drum kit for instance and sometimes even over the timpani? Is it because they were trying to be different and so wound up being uniform? I foresee future musicologists telling their students to recognize early 20th century music by the abundance of "whack! and "tock."


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## starry

He can craft a piece of music obviously, he knows how to write for instruments and can structure pieces well. Some of his 'pops' of course are well loved by many, Romeo and Juliet, Classical Symphony, Lieutenant Kije Suite....but like other composers of that period (Hindemith for example) I wonder if his status is elevated because he is in this more fashionable period.


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## emiellucifuge

Blasphemy!

Listen deeper, use a score if you must.


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## starry

I'm not saying he is bad. As you say he can be playful, such as the 3rd concerto mentioned above. But when he tries to get really expressive I feel it less normally. The 6th symphony for instance is meant to be a really serious piece but has never really communicated to me. It's not just about the percussion as Weston mentions but with the strings as well even.


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## Huilunsoittaja

All his ballet music and suites are amazing!!!

I have played his Flute Sonata too, and absolutely love that.

Probably my favorite 20th century Russian composer as of now.


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## TWhite

I run hot and cold on Prokofiev. Right now I'm starting to run hot again, especially the "Classic" Symphony (#1), the 1st piano concerto and especially the marvelous 3rd piano concerto (either Browning or Argerrich--both approaches blow me out of the water!), the Fifth Symphony, Sycthian Suite, Romeo and Juliet, and my old favorite standby "Lieutenant Kije." 

I like his rhythm and drive and his jagged, yet oddly Post-Romantic lyricism. And his sardonic wit.

I'm not a fan of his solo piano music, but that's just me. I'm just not attuned to that particular approach to the piano--though I certainly can appreciate where he's coming from. 

Frankly, I've yet to get used to his 2nd piano concerto, though it's easier for me to take lately than it used to be. There's a good chance that it will grow on me, this time, however. It seems that the older I get, the more my ears mature, LOL! 

And for those only used to the "Alexander Nevsky" in it's 'cantata' form, I'd suggest a viewing of the recently remastered Eisenstein classic film, with the new soundtrack performance by the St. Petersburg orchestra 'dubbed' in. The print is pristine (it looks as if it were filmed yesterday), and the newly restored soundtrack will simply knock you out of the room. The more I listen to it, the more convinced I am that it just MIGHT be the greatest film score ever written--and far more satisfying than the 'cantata' he arranged from the score.

Damn good composer, IMO. 

Tom


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## Taneyev

Yes. he was a first class chess player.


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## muxamed

Taneyev said:


> Yes. he was a first class chess player.


It is Prokofiev with Oistrakh on that picture, isn't it?


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## Huilunsoittaja

AYYYYY Chess!


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## Taneyev

muxamed said:


> It is Prokofiev with Oistrakh on that picture, isn't it?


Yes. Both were fanatics, and played every ocassion the had the time. Sergei was an atacker and agressive. David was more strategist and calm. But both were really good.


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## Air

Taneyev said:


> Yes. Both were fanatics, and played every ocassion the had the time. Sergei was an atacker and agressive. David was more strategist and calm. But both were really good.


Equally good. At Moscow in 1937, they played to a draw.


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## cw4257

altiste said:


> Prokofiev's Symphony No.3 is in my opinion a great symphonic work, derived from material out of his opera "The Fiery Angel".


One of my favourite pieces of music from any genre, he is a total genius


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## rojo

I taught a piece by Prokofiev to one of my piano students for examination purposes this year. I had never taught anything by him before. It was a really nice piece: from Music for Children Op. 65, No. 12 Moonlit Meadows. I hope to teach more Prokofiev in the future. The pieces from that opus have such great wit and character.


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## Huilunsoittaja

One of the most beautiful melodies he ever made!


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## trillian

3rd piano concerto is one of the best piano pieces i've ever listened to.

though all his piano concertos seem the same :/ but i still love them!


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## Bix

I love his second piano concerto - especially the firey climax in the first movement


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## Aramis

> though all his piano concertos seem the same :/


WASH YOUR EARS


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## Bix

Aramis said:


> WASH YOUR EARS


 funny


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## Huilunsoittaja

Huilunsoittaja said:


> One of the most beautiful melodies he ever made!


Aww it's been deleted.

Well, there's another one.


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## trillian

Aramis said:


> WASH YOUR EARS


i definitely should


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## jurianbai

yes, indeed he was a very strong chess player. you can even see the game here in Chessgames site. Notice his games against mentioned David Oistrakh and Maurice Ravel.

from the comments over there : _Here is the backround story: Prokofiev and Oistrakh were friends, both member of the Moskow Chess Club. But their big rivalry over the chessboard should be fought out in a match. Their stake was musically: the loser should give a concert for free to the members of the Moskow Chess Club.

After four draws they came to an agreement to cancel the challenge/match and both -together- gave the 'wagered' concert._

I like his string quartet no.1, beautiful.


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## Mahler7

My favs are

October Revolution Cantata
The Stone Poppy
Chout
Le Pas D'acier
The Prodigal Son
Alexander Nevsky
Ivan The Terrible
Semyon Kotko

yep, love him, good, but not great symphonies.


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## jhar26

Mahler7 said:


> My favs are
> 
> October Revolution Cantata
> The Stone Poppy
> Chout
> Le Pas D'acier
> The Prodigal Son
> Alexander Nevsky
> Ivan The Terrible
> Semyon Kotko
> 
> yep, love him, good, but not great symphonies.


I don't know. Number 5 especially sounds awesome to me.

Anyway, my faves...

Symphonies Nos.1, 3 & 5
Piano Concertos Nos.1, 2 & 3
Alexander Nevsky
Leutnant Kije Suite
Violin Concertos Nos.1 & 2
Romeo & Juliet 
Cinderella
The Love for Three Oranges
Betrothal in a Monastery


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## Air

Mahler7 said:


> ...but not great symphonies.


Simply not true.


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## Mahler7

Air said:


> Simply not true.


just my opinion, it's all in the eye of the beholder in the end. my favorite prokofiev symphonies are nos 2 and 4.


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## superhorn

I've loved the music of Prokofiev for many years. As well as his masterpieces in the piano,orchestral and ballet repertoire,Prokofiev wrote some of the finest operas of the 20th century, and his they are fortunately starting to become part of the operatic canon,to a large degree because of thew tireless efforts of maestro Gergiev,who is one of the finest conductors of Prokofiev ever.
The Love For Three Oranges is a zany and exuberant comedy which often seems to anticipate Monty Python in its gleeful absurdity. 
The Fiery Angel,on the other hand, is probably the weirdest and most disturbing opera ever written, a nightmarish story of insane obsession, sorcery, and demonology set in 16th century Germany. Prokofiev's score is almost unbearably intense and harrowing. It's not for the faint-hearted,and don't listen to a recording or watch the DVD late at night, or you may have nightmares !
War and Peace is possibly the most monumental operatic masterpiece of the 20th century, with an enormous cast and filled with passionate and sweeping music.
Though less well-known that the Cantata Alexander Nevsky, the music Prokofiev wrote for Einsenstein's classic film Ivan The Terrible was put together as a full-length oratorio after his death by another composer or conduictor whose name I can't recall offhand, with a narrator portraying the ruthless Czar and baritone and Mezzo soloists as well as chorus. 
It's perhaps even more sweeping and powerful than Alexander Nevsky. 
The Scythian Suite is also a thrilling piece, and no mere riip-off of the Rite of Spring, but a work with a very different color and character.
The 4th symphony, which is rarely performed and uses music from the ballet The Prodigal Son, is a very underrated symphony, and I prefer the more expansive second version, but some prefer the more concise original.


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## Huilunsoittaja

superhorn said:


> The Fiery Angel,on the other hand, is probably the weirdest and most disturbing opera ever written, a nightmarish story of insane obsession, sorcery, and demonology set in 16th century Germany. Prokofiev's score is almost unbearably intense and harrowing. It's not for the faint-hearted,and don't listen to a recording or watch the DVD late at night, or you may have nightmares !


Ooooooooooh... sounds interesting, I go look it up.


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## Huilunsoittaja

http://www.siue.edu/~aho/musov/proko/prokofiev1.html

Read the entire article through. Completely tragic.


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## myaskovsky2002

*I love*

The fairy angel...I think this opera is really evil...the guy was sick when he composed this, the music is extremely penetrating...the last scene when Renata reveals her real nature and the nuns became possessed....that is great!!!! The music is powerful and it is the same music in his 3rd symphony...well everybody knows that... Is the opera I like the most by him...It makes me think about Lulu (Alban Berg)...

After this opera, Sergei becomes a good guy...Just more communist....Music for everyone....War and peace is awesome but quite....The betrotahl is nice....Simeon Kotko, I don't really like this opera...too much propaganda as the story of a real man....Sovietic propaganda....The gambler, one of his first operas is a real mess!!!!! I don't understand it...Do you?

Martin, ignorant


----------



## Huilunsoittaja

myaskovsky2002 said:


> The fairy angel...I think this opera is really evil...the guy was sick when he composed this, the music is extremely penetrating...the last scene when Renata reveals her real nature and the nuns became possessed....that is great!!!! The music is powerful and it is the same music in his 3rd symphony...well everybody knows that... Is the opera I like the most by him...It makes me think about Lulu (Alban Berg)...
> 
> After this opera, Sergei becomes a good guy...Just more communist....Music for everyone....War and peace is awesome but quite....The betrotahl is nice....Simeon Kotko, I don't really like this opera...too much propaganda as the story of a real man....Sovietic propaganda....The gambler, one of his first operas is a real mess!!!!! I don't understand it...Do you?
> 
> Martin, ignorant


Well, I perhaps know something I should tell you. Look up historical events for Prokofiev: 1924-25. Something huge in that span of time changed his life, and his view of music, and that's why after that point he stopped writing all that creepy stuff like, "Seven, there are Seven" the Scythian Suite, the Fiery Angel, etc. Tell me when you find out what happened... hint, it had little to do with Communism.


----------



## myaskovsky2002

Half a year ago, I would shut my ears when I heard twentieth century music. That was when i discovered Prokofiev.
You have to admit there is something magical in Prokofiev's music that makes you never grow tired of it. I mean, how can one not just fall in love with those beautifully sarcastic tunes, the color, and the flow of his music?
Recently, I have fallen in love with Prokofiev's piano works.

Toccata, Op. 11
Suggestion diabolique
Prokofiev sonata 6 and 7 (Listen to Richter!)
Prokofiev piano concerto 1

But over all, I can't stop listening to prokofiev's 3rd piano concerto. I mean, listen to the Argerich version and you'll know what I mean. The first movement: there's that first theme which makes you lift your eyes to heaven. Then with the fiery uprising ending in this INCREDIBLE bitingly sarcastic second theme. And that's just the exposition! And HOLY COW! The third movement is SO CRAZY. Banging chords every eight of a second in seemingly random places. And plus, glissandos up and down, up and down. I get a headache listening to that, BUT I LOOOVE it!

Feel free to post your thoughts on this AWESOMELY COOL russian maniac!!! 
===========================================================
My dear friend...The XXth century? You haven't finished yet...Try Schnittke! This is something


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## myaskovsky2002

Well, I perhaps know something I should tell you. Look up historical events for Prokofiev: 1924-25. Something huge in that span of time changed his life, and his view of music, and that's why after that point he stopped writing all that creepy stuff like, "Seven, there are Seven" the Scythian Suite, the Fiery Angel, etc. Tell me when you find out what happened... hint, it had little to do with Communism. 
=========================================================
Please tell me! I always wanted to know what this big change! But I thought that Shostakovich had a similar change (The nose was awfully modern and difficult to understand).... Please tell me!

But I like his creapy style...I think I'm creepy myself...It was when he returned to the URSS? Or somebody died?

I haver no idea....

Sincerely

Martin Pitchon


----------



## myaskovsky2002

But the most important thing was his meeting with Albert Coates who was delighted with Three Oranges, when it was played to him by the composer, and who "laughed like a child". "How pleasant it is to play to a man who understands you, unlike the Americans Bodanzky and Gatti", he noted. As a result there were again promises for a production at Covent Garden but the only definite agreement was for Prokofiev to appear in a concert the following season on 27 January 1921 and before that to conduct his "Scythian Suite" and "Classical Symphony".

I was reading all this in order to find out Prokofiev's secret...But I couldn't.

http://www.sprkfv.net/journal/three02/1920_1.html

Very interesting...At the beginning I thought...when he met Stravinsky...or...when he went to England...But I think I don't know! I give up! You tell me! and I tell you Tchaikovsky's secret (everybody knows this....LOL). Please Huilunsoittaja! Be nice!

Martin Pitchon


----------



## Huilunsoittaja

myaskovsky2002 said:


> But the most important thing was his meeting with Albert Coates who was delighted with Three Oranges, when it was played to him by the composer, and who "laughed like a child". "How pleasant it is to play to a man who understands you, unlike the Americans Bodanzky and Gatti", he noted. As a result there were again promises for a production at Covent Garden but the only definite agreement was for Prokofiev to appear in a concert the following season on 27 January 1921 and before that to conduct his "Scythian Suite" and "Classical Symphony".
> 
> I was reading all this in order to find out Prokofiev's secret...But I couldn't.
> 
> http://www.sprkfv.net/journal/three02/1920_1.html
> 
> Very interesting...At the beginning I thought...when he met Stravinsky...or...when he went to England...But I think I don't know! I give up! You tell me! and I tell you Tchaikovsky's secret (everybody knows this....LOL). Please Huilunsoittaja! Be nice!
> 
> Martin Pitchon


That might not be the right place to look, so...
:trp: 
Now, the whole world shall know!

Google: "Prokofiev, Devout Christian Scientist"


----------



## myaskovsky2002

*Frankly...*

I think we can/should share this secret...we are among friends...and moreover, curious people like us...But indeed you can go to the site...You'll be clarified about how Prokofiev decided to change deeply his orientation (I'm not speaking sexually...LOL, he was not gay)...

Then again, go to Prokofiev, religion something, as my friend has said...You'll have the surprise of your life and will understand many things like my friend...did, he opened my EYES. LOL

Martin

:tiphat:


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## myaskovsky2002

*Now...I know!!!!!!*

Cordially,

Martin


----------



## myaskovsky2002

Buah.....

Yawn....

M.P.


----------



## Saul_Dzorelashvili

Prokofiev, was one of the worst composers that had ever lived in history.


----------



## myaskovsky2002

> Prokofiev, was one of the worst composers that had ever lived in history[/QUOTE
> 
> Why do you come here for saying that. It is true that here nobody knows a thing about Prokofiev...Thehat!ead for ty just know the "surface-knowledge"...just one ballet, one symphony one concerto and no operas at all!
> And they launched a thread just for that! It is incredible how people can come to say nonsense..
> 
> Well...I'll go to sleep again. Do not bother me. LOL


----------



## Huilunsoittaja

Saul_Dzorelashvili said:


> Prokofiev, was one of the worst composers that had ever lived in history.


HAAAAAhaha. That's almost as funny as saying Sibelius was the worst composer ever. And equally ignorant.

But who the heck rated this thread 2 stars???


----------



## myaskovsky2002

*2 stars*

I'll rate it one star! But I think I cannot rate twice! Alas! This guy who dislikes Sergei should go away...PRASHAI!!!!!!

mARTIN


----------



## Guest

myaskovsky2002 said:


> It is true that here nobody knows a thing about Prokofiev...Thehat!ead for ty just know the "surface-knowledge"...just one ballet, one symphony one concerto and no operas at all!
> And they launched a thread just for that! It is incredible how people can come to say nonsense..
> 
> Well...I'll go to sleep again. Do not bother me. LOL


But discussion threads are not just for the experts. Indeed, the experts will probably not be contributing at all to threads of this sort.

Anyway, lack of knowledge becomes a problem only when conclusions are drawn on insufficient evidence. If someone comes on to say that _Classical Symphony_ or _Peter and the Wolf_ is their favorite piece, so what? If you want to do good at that point, why not suggest other pieces? Prokofiev borrowed from himself perhaps more than any other composer has done. Beethoven and Berlioz a fair bit, of course, but no one so much. And so for anyone who loves the _Classical Symphony,_ how about suggesting that they listen to _Romeo and Juliet,_ which recycles a movement of the symphony?

To say that the posters so far have said nonsense is about as useful as saying that Prokofiev is one of the worst composers. (It must have been amusing the first time the pot called the kettle black. The first time....)


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## myaskovsky2002

*ok...we'll speak about him more seriously*

Let's start with a list:

Ballets 
Band Music 
Cantatas/Oratorios 
Cello 
Chamber Music 
Concertos 
Film/Incidental Music 
Flute 
Operas 
Orchestral 
Piano 
Symphonies 
Violin 
Vocal

= Click to see Orchestration 
By Title 
By Opus 
By Date 
By Genre

By Popularity 
By # of Recordings 
By # of Concerts

*Note: All known works are contained in this catalog except the 'Juvenilia' early piano works. These works will be added in the future.

Alexander Nevsky, Cantata for mezzo-soprano, chorus and orchestra, Op 78 1938-1939 Cantata 
Chout (The Tale of the Buffoon), Ballet in Six Scenes, Op 21 1915-1920 Ballet 
Cinderella, Ballet in Three Acts, Op 87 1940-1944 Ballet 
Fiery Angel, Op 37 1919-1927 Opera 
Lieutenant Kijé - Symphonic Suite, Op 60 1934 Orchestral Suite 
Love for Three Oranges: Symphonic Suite, Op 33bis 1924 Orchestral Suite 
Peter and the Wolf, Op 67 1936 Speaker & Orchestra 
Piano Concerto No 2 in G minor, Op 16 1912-1913 Piano Concerto 
Piano Concerto No 3 in C major, Op 26 1917-1921 Piano Concerto 
Piano Sonata No 6 in A major, Op 82 1939-1940 Piano Sonata 
Piano Sonata No 7 in B flat major, Op 83 1939-1942 Piano Sonata 
Piano Sonata No 8 in B flat major, Op 84 1939-1944 Piano Sonata 
Romeo and Juliet, Ballet in Four Acts, Op 64 1935-1936 Ballet 
Scythian Suite, from Ala and Lolli, Op 20 1914-1915 Orchestral Suite 
Sinfonia Concertante for Cello and Orchestra, Op 125 1950-1952 Cello Concerto 
Sonata for Violin and Piano No 1 in F minor, Op 80 1938-1946 Violin Sonata 
Symphony No 1 in D major "Classical", Op 25 1916-1917 Symphony 
Symphony No 5 in B flat major, Op 100 1944 Symphony 
Symphony No 6 in E flat minor, Op 111 1945-1947 Symphony 
Toccata in D minor, Op 11 1912 Piano 
Violin Concerto No 1 in D major, Op 19 1916-1917 Violin Concerto 
Violin Concerto No 2 in G minor, Op 63 1935 Violin Concerto 
Visions Fugitives, Op 22 1915-1917 Piano 
War and Peace, Op 91 1941-1952 Opera

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Impressive? It is, a big output. 10 operas, 9 wonderful, one weird (the gambler), 7 symphonies, 6 beautiful, one a bit corny (the first one). 5 piano concertos, all awesome, 10 piano sonatas...Wow! two violin concertios, wow again! many ballets, awesome.
Incidental music (a few NOT-AT-ALL good...Eugene Oneguin, Boris Godunov)...

Different styles, th eguy evolved a lot and came to sources as Schönberg

Martin


----------



## Guest

Best to make your own list, though, wouldn't it be? Rather than a cut and paste from the Prokofiev site?



myaskovsky2002 said:


> 10 operas, 9 wonderful, one weird (the gambler), 7 symphonies, 6 beautiful, one a bit corny (the first one). 5 piano concertos, all awesome, 10 piano sonatas...Wow! two violin concertios, wow again! many ballets, awesome.
> Incidental music (a few NOT-AT-ALL good...Eugene Oneguin, Boris Godunov)...


And best to be a bit more accurate. Especially if you're going to be slamming your fellows for their lack of knowledge. The official count of Prokofiev operas is eight (excluding juvenilia). He started two others, but they're unfinished (and unrecorded), so it's difficult to credit that you know enough about _Khan Buzay_ and _Distant Seas_ to call them "wonderful." (Isn't "wonderful" stretching it a bit for _Story of a Real Man_ and _Maddelena_? And I'd say that at least the stories of _Love for Three Oranges_ and _The Fiery Angel_ are much weirder than that for _The Gambler._ The only one whose music could be called weird would be _The Fiery Angel,_ I'd think.)

And only nine completed piano sonatas, though hearing the unfinished tenth is easy enough if you have the right CD set.

And why name _Eugene Onegin_ as one of the "not at all good" incidental music scores? Surely _Egyptian Nights_ and _Hamlet_ are more on the level of _Boris Godunov_ than Eugene Onegin is. Just think of all the works that ended up with bits of _Onegin_ in them. Now there's an interesting list--all the works with bits of _Eugene Onegin_ in them.


----------



## Huilunsoittaja

*What do you think?*






My special tribute to Prokofiev I made a while back. I hope it's not banned from you all because of copyright issues.


----------



## myaskovsky2002

*Thank you*

And best to be a bit more accurate. Especially if you're going to be slamming your fellows for their lack of knowledge. The official count of Prokofiev operas is eight (excluding juvenilia). He started two others, but they're unfinished (and unrecorded), so it's difficult to credit that you know enough about Khan Buzay and Distant Seas to call them "wonderful." (Isn't "wonderful" stretching it a bit for Story of a Real Man and Maddelena? And I'd say that at least the stories of Love for Three Oranges and The Fiery Angel are much weirder than that for The Gambler. The only one whose music could be called weird would be The Fiery Angel, I'd think.)

==================================================
The 9th is the Giant (his first)....The Fiery angel is a master piece...do you really like the Gambler? The story is not weird (Dostoyevsky) but the music. Love for 3 oranges is an old Italian writer called Carlo Gozzi who also wrote Turandot (Puccini), the Fiery angel is the opera I appreciate the most....It is the Evil-Prokofiev....The music was reused in his
3rd symphony.

I don't want to slam anybody...I know almost nothing...you see, I thought it was 10 operas, I made a mistake and as you have said there are 8...the Giant "doesn't exist"...
Maybe you wanted to slam me....LOL

Martin, humbler than you think


----------



## emiellucifuge

Huilunsoittaja said:


> My special tribute to Prokofiev I made a while back. I hope it's not banned from you all because of copyright issues.


Very nice video, I dont think copyright should be an issue as this is probably covered under fair use laws.


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## myaskovsky2002

A tribute without opera???? !!!!!





















Martin


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## Moscow-Mahler

Ciel_Rouge said:


> I recently discovered this piece:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> called Dance of the Knights. I read it comes from his Romeo and Juliet. I have the impression it has been played a lot in advertisements etc. - which of course does not diminish its value by any means. It is the only Prokofiev piece that I enjoy so far - that might change as I discover more...


By the way, Prokofiev in this movement used some material from the Fiery Angel. And its an exellent music. I love his previous ballets also.

Still, I'm not so sure about his symphonies, esp 7th with it's finale. After overhelming Shostakovich I can't listen to Prokofievs symphonies. It is like listening to Haydn after Mahler.

*Andre* said that we don't know, what will do Prokofiev in Khruchov times. But Prokofiev said: "I'm just a classical composer". He was very critical to Shostakovich music and was speaking about "Mahleria" (Mahler epidemia). I don't know if he cares about Schoenberg and his group. So, it seems to me that he will go in more conservative direction.

And I don't think it's just because of Stalin, but Stalin neoclassicism concur with Prokofiev inner evolution to epic themes and more "melodical" music, it seems to me.

I'm still not sure abut him. I like his ballets and chamber music, but I don't care for such works as "Alexander Nevsky" (who by the way betrayed his brother and opened the gates of Novgorod for Tatars). Maybe, I'm wrong. Maybe, I'm just trying to be objective. In Russia people think about Prokofiev as one of the greatest XX composers, but I there is lot of great Western music in XX century. So, is he so great from world-wide point of view?


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## the_emptier

I got his opera about oranges from the library. I have yet to listen to it, is it good?


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## Moscow-Mahler

Yes, it's very funny and full of joy!


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## toucan

Moscow-Mahler said:


> He was very critical to Shostakovich music and was speaking about "Mahleria" (Mahler epidemia).


Well said! Boulez called it: "second pressing Mahler."



> And I don't think it's just because of Stalin, but Stalin neoclassicism concur with Prokofiev inner evolution to epic themes and more "melodical" music, it seems to me.


I think that's wise. There was neo-classicism in the West as well but no one there compelled Stravinsly to do Pulcinella or Nadia Boulanger and Wanda Landowska to rehabilitate ancient music. Neo-classicism happens to have been the dominant trend of those days, irrespective of political context.

There are people who like too smear 1930's neo-classical architecture as "Totalitarian" or Stalinist or "Albert Speer architecture," but it was also the style of Architecture practiced in Franklin Roosevelt's America and one of the masterpieces of the genre is the French Embassy in Belgrade (Roger-Henri Expert, arch.) - and France at the time was a democratic republic.



> I'm still not sure abut him. I like his ballets and chamber music, but I don't care for such works as "Alexander Nevsky" (who by the way betrayed his brother and opened the gates of Novgorod for Tatars). Maybe, I'm wrong. Maybe, I'm just trying to be objective. In Russia people think about Prokofiev as one of the greatest XX composers, but I there is lot of great Western music in XX century. So, is he so great from world-wide point of view?


Prokofiev has always seemed to me to be in an uncomfortable, in-between-two-chairs position - not quite a great one like Stravinsky/Debussy/Scriabin et alii but not at all mediocre either.

His melodic gift has to be his most charateristic trait, even when he tries his hand at industrial music - see for instance the lovely THEMA from the Theme and Variations in his underrated (though admitedly imperfect) Second Symphony.


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## Air

toucan said:


> Prokofiev has always seemed to me to be in an uncomfortable, in-between-two-chairs position - not quite a great one like Stravinsky/Debussy/Scriabin et alii but not at all mediocre either.
> 
> His melodic gift has to be his most charateristic trait, even when he tries his hand at industrial music - see for instance the lovely THEMA from the Theme and Variations in his underrated (though admitedly imperfect) Second Symphony.


I wouldn't say Prokofiev with his ability to work well in such a wide variety of forms is an "in between case" at all. Of course, in Russia he's revered as a greater composer than Stravinsky and Scriabin and probably Debussy as well. Not that I fully agree with this assertion, but comparing these composers is certainly not easy. What the West looks for in a composer was (and still is) very different from what the East did (and still does). In the Soviet Union, it was more important for a composer to know how to carry a good melody, making the music (as many former Soviet musician friends I know call it) "come alive". Composers like Boulez were completely out of the whack for the East - simply because they found nothing in their music to connect to the old Mother Land or the new Mother Land. Ideals, morals, and tradition was what the Regime at the time was about. And Prokofiev was the type of composer who just spewed ideas from his 'noggin.

Not to be ignored, however, is the fact that Prokofiev was very progressive in his early-middle years. It can't be denied that works like the Scythian Suite, Fiery Angel, 2nd and 3rd symphonies, etc. are highly innovative even compared to what Stravinsky was doing at the time. The Classical Symphony, too, as much as I hate it, was written in 1916 - before the February and October Revolutions brought in the Bolsheviks and a long time later, Stalin. So it's obvious that "Totalitarianism" and "Stalinism" had nothing to do with what Prokofiev was doing at the time with neo-classicism, even before Stravinsky had gotten there.

If anything, the effect of Stalin's regime was a gradual regression into tonality, which is most evident in his last opuses, particularly the 7th symphony. I've always thought that it was mostly the influence of the Regime that turned Prokofiev backwards, from the Enfant Terrible he was in his earlier years. Of course, this may not be the complete picture. It seems that Prokofiev was in some ways satisfied with his position in the Soviet Union (and dissatisfied too, of course). But beyond being a regression back into tonality, the 7th symphony seems to have a good deal of acceptance in it, and bitterness under the calm. I've often called it a "fairy tale" symphony, which is a statement that I still do not retract.

The Second Symphony is easily my favorite of the seven, though the 3rd, 5th, and 6th are close behind. I am in many ways drawn to the so-called imperfection of the work - and the fact that Prokofiev strove so high makes it far more interesting in my eyes than something that came so natural to him like Cinderella. I don't think it's always how mathematically precise a work is that constitutes its greatness - much of Beethoven is inherently flawed but these flaws are able to enhance his work rather than detract from it. But of course, when a composer like Bach or Mozart comes around the mountain, it's perfectly natural for us to be in complete awe as well.


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## Moscow-Mahler

*Air*
I think that Prokofiev thought that *he and Stalin would be like Haydn and Esterhazy *  But he didn't understand at first that Soviet regime was more ideological and that (unlike in 18 century) the Soviet elite was more "democratic" with more "democratic" tastes. They prefered composers who wrote simple songs. And he hadn't thought that such persons as Khrennikov would get the top position in music. When he was writing his last works he was very ill and unhappy person. He didn't not become a Soviet man in his mentality (btw, he supported the Whites during the Civil War and was the adept of Christian Science Church).

***
Why do you hate his First symphony? Could you explain.

***
I think that *The Fiery Angel* should become more well-known opera. I wonder, why it isn't such famous, as e.g. Eugene Onegin or Don Carlo. The story (I have read the book by Valery Brusov) is so interesting and has this occultistic site wich is always popular (esp. in modern Russia). Why it did not become a world-wide blockbuster, I still don't understand.

*toucan*
Boulez is a clever man and I like his Ravel and Scriabin and Schoenberg (but not sure about his Mahler - it is interesting and Boulez knows what he wants, but is it Mahler with his high-romanticism pathos?), but I don't think that he is right about Shostakovich being the second-pressed Mahler. Their musical language is very different. Is Ravel second-pressed Debussy?


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## Air

Thanks for the information Moscow-Mahler, that was very interesting. I never argued that Prokofiev adopted a Soviet type mentality, but merely that the Soviet regime itself may have stifled his growth as a progressive composer. This may have been, as you said, more due to Prokofiev's mindset towards the regime than the regime's direct actions towards him, but realistically I'd say it was a little of both. His opinion of what would be accepted by the government probably caused him to compose in great fear, to avoid what many of his contemporaries were going through at the time. After all, they didn't hesitate to ban Popov's First Symphony at its premiere, and this probably influenced Shostakovich too to withdraw his Fourth Symphony. In comparison to his earlier symphonies, the Fourth Symphony really showed a new sort of guts, but of course the young Shostakovich highly feared what the Pravda, and Stalin, had to say - a problem that would remain with him for the rest of his career. I think it's true to say that Prokofiev faced this problem to a similar degree throughout his lifetime yet very few people tend to recognize this or even sympathize with him in the same way they do with Shostakovich.

I don't hate the First Symphony, I just consider it the worst of his seven. What frustrates me is simply how much attention the First Symphony receives compared to the superior and more ambitious 2nd, 3rd, and 6th symphonies.


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## Sid James

This is an interesting discussion. I'd like to add that I think that Prokofiev was still quite experimental, even in his later years under Stalin. Just listen to the _Symphony-Concerto_ for cello & orchestra. It's definitely not your run of the mill cello concerto. Comparing it to Myaskovsky's effort (which I have coupled with it on the same disc with Rostropovich as soloist) it's quite out-there. & it was from the final years of Prokofiev's life, though I do understand that he was also integrating ideas from an earlier cello concerto into it. So influential was this work, that Shostakovich & Britten would be highly inspired by it in writing their own concertante works for cello & orchestra. At heart (as the quote under Air's posts shows) Sergei was a radical, and I don't think that he never really stopped being a radical throughout his whole career, although he did go through quite a number of stylistic changes & there are works in which he did inevitably have to pander a bit to the regime...


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## Moscow-Mahler

*Andre*
It's difficult to say... Sometimes Prokofiev said about himself: "I'm just a XX century classical composer".

His cello concerto was originally written during his last years in Paris. So, it's difficult to say to which period it belongs. BTW, in the new version's finale he added the comical quatation from the song of Zaharov, one of the song-writers who supported Khrennikov (about some simple Russian guy who is waiting near his girl's house). There was a big scandal  It was his revenge.


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## TxllxT

In Alexander Nevsky op.78 a battle starts on the ice. Just hear the scratching of the strings to evoke the army getting closer&closer on skates! My favourite Prokofiev is Semyon Kotko & Piano Sonata no.6. Just recently I got hold of a CD with Nikolai Lugansky breaking his fingers on this. But Vladimir Ashkenazy's mastering of this remains unsurpassed.


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## Huilunsoittaja

*Tell me what you think of this*






It's all in Russian, but if you know Prokofiev's life story, it should be easy to guess what's happening. Some of it though is just hilarious.


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## kmisho

One of my single most prized musical objects is my CD of Prokofiev's 5th by Slatkin and the St Louis Symphony.


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## vamos

i hope somebody sees this and replies.

prokofiev has this Op 12, 10 Piano Pieces... and it's wonderful.

I advise any fans or piano people to seek it out. the melodies are wonderful. It's all sort of 'miniature.'

But great.


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## Huilunsoittaja

vamos said:


> i hope somebody sees this and replies.
> 
> prokofiev has this Op 12, 10 Piano Pieces... and it's wonderful.
> 
> I advise any fans or piano people to seek it out. the melodies are wonderful. It's all sort of 'miniature.'
> 
> But great.


It's BRILLIANT! I downloaded Prokofiev's own recording of some of the pieces which was put up on youtube. I love it so so much. He plays with utmost character.

I'm a fanatic of Prokofiev's piano music in general.


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## Orange Soda King

I am currently enjoying his second piano concerto. Has anyone heard Kun-Woo Paik's recording?


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## haydnfan

I've heard Paik's recording. I'm not a fan of the really heavy interpretations of the concerto so the lighter, dynamic performance of Paik works well for me.


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## Huilunsoittaja

It's the 120th anniversary of Prokofiev's birthday today!!! 

♩♪♫♬ ♩♪♫♬ ♩♪♫♬ ♩♪♫♬






Triumph in musical form.


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## haydnfan

Fantastic! I'll have a marathon of the piano concertos!! And the 1st and 5th symphonies.


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## tdc

Huilunsoittaja said:


> It's the 120th anniversary of Prokofiev's birthday today!!!
> 
> Triumph in musical form.


I had no idea of this and fittingly I did just listen to Prokofiev piano concerti 2 and 3 back to back this morning.


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## Conor71

Belated Birthday Wishes Prokofiev!  :trp:


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## Air

Happy Birthday!

Since it's disputed whether Prokofiev's birthday is on the 23rd of April or the 27th of April (historians are leaning towards the 27th these days), I'll just make that an excuse to celebrate his birthday and listen to his music extensively on _both_ days!
har har har. 

Today I will go for those crazy piano sonatas. Capping it off with Richter's recordings of the War Sonatas.


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## Huilunsoittaja

Air said:


> Happy Birthday!
> 
> Since it's disputed whether Prokofiev's birthday is on the 23rd of April or the 27th of April (historians are leaning towards the 27th these days), I'll just make that an excuse to celebrate his birthday and listen to his music extensively on _both_ days!
> har har har.
> 
> Today I will go for those crazy piano sonatas. Capping it off with Richter's recordings of the War Sonatas.


Haha seriously the 27? (by the way, I'm going to a concert hopefully on the 27 to see the Prokofiev PC No. 1, that'll be a blast. That will be the 3rd Prokofiev concert this year, as a celebration  )

Well, I got my proof it's the 23rd from 3 sources: a music encyclopedia/dictionary, my local radio station who announces such things, and an actual quote by Prokofiev:

"I was born on Wednesday 11 April (Old Style), at five o'clock in the afternoon. This was on the hundredth day of the year. 11 April corresponds to 23 April (New Style), not 24, as some have _mistakenly _calculated." (Autobiography)

LOL looks like people have even calculated to the 27. Wikipedia has it wrong  Bad!


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## Couchie

Ah, the brutal sadomasochism of the beginning of the 4th movement of the 2nd concerto:


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## KJohnson

In many ways, he was more original than Shostakovich, but his popularity has been in a serious decline. One would expect the opposite to be true. 

I hope this changes in time.


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## Huilunsoittaja

KJohnson said:


> In many ways, he was more original than Shostakovich, but his popularity has been in a serious decline. One would expect the opposite to be true.
> 
> I hope this changes in time.


Better to be pretty famous that _overly _famous. Shostakovich will get the backlash of criticism later, some people think he's overrated right now. Prokofiev should never get to the point that he is overrated, that would be bad.


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## Moscow-Mahler

Andre said:


> & in that DVD, I learned that Prokofiev's wife, who was Jewish, was sent to the gulags by Stalin. Even though Prokofiev tried to intervene & save her, this was to no avail. it was noted that Prokofiev's wife survived her incarceration, and actually lived well into her 90's. How's that for a miraculous story?...


. Prokofiev has two wifes. It was his first wife - Lina (she was Spanish), who was imprisoned. His second wife Mirra Mendelsohn (she was Jewish indeed) was not. Lina was imprisoned, after Prokofiev divorced with her. Some people said that Lina was afraid of it. I mean, she was afraid that after Prokofiev and she divorce, she would not be protected.

Fortunately, Dukelski (Vernon Duke) didn't return to Russia. Prokofiev agitated him to do so. Dukelski will be imprisoned too. Sometimes Prokofiev was so naive!

I still think that only a bachelor should do such things like returning to a totalitarian country. A man with a wife and children should not.


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## Moscow-Mahler

A good way to compare the two versions of his Cello Concerto:


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## CaptainAzure

Too bad he's usually remembered solely for his ballets.

Symphony #1 alone is enough to make you realise he was more than just a composer of incidental music.


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## Manxfeeder

CaptainAzure said:


> Too bad he's usually remembered solely for his ballets.
> 
> Symphony #1 alone is enough to make you realise he was more than just a composer of incidental music.


I know Stravinsky is credited with neo-classicism, but before him, Prokofiev and Ravel at the same time came up with the concept of rejecting Romantic excesses by taking the classical model and infusing it with new harmonies and new orchestrations.


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## Norse

I just felt like posting this. I've probably seen film footage of him before, but never with speech.


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## Nix

I've started exploring Prokofiev recently, and the more I listen to him, the more I'm pushed to the belief that good composer though he may be, he's missing a certain something (is 'genius' the right word?). So far all of the works I've heard by him have been consistently good, catchy, beautiful, and well written, but only very seldom profound... what's more is that there's a fairly short arc of enjoyment. i.e. the first listen will be entertaining, 4-5th listen I reach maximum enjoyment, and 7th listen it starts to wear on me. Part of this is that I feel he sometimes draws a very fine line between sophistication, and kitsch. And I realize he sometimes he's being kitschy on purpose, but I'm not entirely convinced that he pulls it off all the time. 

That said, here are the works I'm familiar with by him- PC #1, PC #2, VC #1 and 2, and the Classical Symphony. The 1st violin concerto is my favorite, with the last movement being by far my favorite thing I've listened to so far. And I've heard only in concert Romeo and Juliet and his Flute Sonata. I realize I haven't thoroughly explored him yet... the 3rd piano concerto and violin sonata are next on my list, as well as some more symphonies. So maybe I'll crack him, but right now I feel as if I understand him, but am still left unsatisfied.


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## violadude

Norse said:


> I just felt like posting this. I've probably seen film footage of him before, but never with speech.


I really wish I knew Russian right now...


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## bumtz

violadude said:


> I really wish I knew Russian right now...


 He says nothing interesting here: I am working on this and that at the moment...


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## Norse

Actually if you click the little youtube button below the video and expand the info from the uploader, there's an English translation there. He's basically talking about what he's working on at the moment.


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## Huilunsoittaja

bumtz said:


> He says nothing interesting here: I am working on this and that at the moment...


Not just anything! He's talking about putting together the 3 suites from his ballet Cinderella! <3 (so someone translated on youtube if you go to the link)

I like this video too:






And this funny animated biography. It's in Russian, but it's easy to tell what's going on. Make sure you catch that picture at 5:58 it's the most hilarious picture I've ever seen of Prokofiev:


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## itywltmt

This week on my ITYWLTMT Montage: Prokofiev "Number ones"
http://itywltmt.blogspot.com/2011/10/montage-25-prokofiev-number-one-montage.html


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## myaskovsky2002

Huilunsoittaja said:


> Not just anything! He's talking about putting together the 3 suites from his ballet Cinderella! <3 (so someone translated on youtube if you go to the link)
> 
> I like this video too:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And this funny animated biography. It's in Russian, but it's easy to tell what's going on. Make sure you catch that picture at 5:58 it's the most hilarious picture I've ever seen of Prokofiev:


Wow! Wonderful video!

Thank you!

Martin


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## science

I'm sorry I came late to this discussion. I also come late to Prokofiev. But in the last year I've made a bit of progress, especially appreciate the violin and piano concertos. I hope to get into the operas soon too. 

But what I'd like to know about right now is the 6th symphony. Any fans of that? Any recordings you particularly love or recommend?


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## violadude

^^^^^^^^^^

The 6th symphony is kind of a tough nut. The 1st movement is very sad. The second movement is grindingly dissonant in a way that makes it fairly hard for some to get into. Then the last movement suddenly switches to quintessential Prokofiev fast and quirky music. 

I really like the piece and I think of it as a darker brother/companion piece to symphony 5. In a way they both reflect different aspects of the war. I am reading "The rest is noise" by Alex Ross right now and I am at the chapter with Prokofiev in it. Apparently he was able to live quite cozily in the USSR for a while. However, it hit him a bit later, but eventually the iron fist of Stalin started to effect his art as well. Although they were only written 3 years apart (the 5th in 1944 and the 6th in 1947) the 5th was written in a time when Prokofiev was still feeling optimistic about living in the Soviet Union. They were still treating him like one of their celebrity composers. However, by 1947 when the 6th was written, the Soviet Union had become more and more suspicious of Prokofiev's music, declaring it all the usual things such as formalistic ect... and as you could imagine it was getting harder and harder for Prokofiev to compose under those conditions. This could be the reason for the sudden shift in moods from the 5th to the 6th symphony.

As for recordings, I'm not really a recording buff haha. The one I have is the Gergiev set and I'm happy enough with it.


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## Air

science said:


> Any recordings you particularly love or recommend?


Weller is the king of the 6th symphony. If you want to buy his set, the 2nd and 3rd symphonies are also extremely strong. The weakest in the set, I think, are the two more well known symphonies, the Classical and the 5th, but there are plenty of recordings to compensate for those.


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## HarpsichordConcerto

Karajan did an excellent #5. Recommended. It comes with #1. Now it is as cheap as chips.


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## science

Thanks guys. I will check your recommendations in a moment. 

HC, that is the only recording of any Prokofiev symphonies that I have....


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## Vaneyes

science said:


> Thanks guys. I will check your recommendations in a moment.
> 
> HC, that is the only recording of any Prokofiev symphonies that I have....


You wouldn't be too bad off, if you stopped there. For me, the other syms. became rare listens...finally culminating in culls.


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## kv466

Hmmm, I could have sworn I had posted here before; and prior to the crash that lost some of our stuff. Either way, I shared the OP's sentiment upon first exposure and then just kinda tucked it away to come back at a later day. I'm happy to say that thanks to folks like Oskaar, Sam-i,am-urai and Air_e_ I am now beginning to not only like the works I already did that much more but I am finding better recordings and have begun to build his catalog in my library.

The explanation as to why it took so long (over 20 years) is basically summed up in the recent Sibelius thread. I'm actually glad I had this plan from the start because the idea always was to eventually give it more chances; after a while and then actually learning to play instruments myself then life got in the way, until now. Honestly, before having joined this forum I would have thought that I would never give Prokofiev another good chance. I would have been wrong.


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## Debussydude

Prokofiev has generally been one of my favorite composers for a while. His orchestral pieces have certain charm to them. Kinda like something you'd hear in a family movie. 
Perhaps my favorite work by him is the Scythian Suite. While doesn't top the Rite of Spring, is very much fun to listen to in its own right with its maddening timpani/tambourine, crazy string ostinatos and brass staccatos.


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## elgar's ghost

Does anyone rate his quintet for oboe, clarinet, violin, viola and double bass? I like the other chamber works I've heard but I have never investigated this one.


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## DeepR

I don't know much from Prokofiev but I totally love this etude:


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## Moscow-Mahler

I am returning to Prokofiev's life again and again - and I'm still very critical to him us a person. Shostakovich didn't have a choice, but Prokofiev HAD. He chose to return to Stalinist USSR and paid a hommage to Stalinistic constitution in his cantata. So, it was HIS CHOICE. He thought that he would be a part of a cultural elite as 18 century composers had been. There is no evidence of him paying any attention to the tragedy of Russian village. I can understand Shostakovich, but sometimes I can't forgive Prokofiev.


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## myaskovsky2002

Do you know she's Argentinian like me? 

Martin, proud


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## Moscow-Mahler

You mean Lina?


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## myaskovsky2002

Habib said:


> I don't think it's fair to compare the Prokofiev and Shostakovich. I agree that some of Prokofiev's music seems light hearted in comparison, but I think that sometimes Shostakovich took himself way too seriously. I guess that one the whole, Prokofiev's cycle of 7 symphonies do not match the profundity of Shostakovich's 15 but the former did write some great ones like No. 5 especially. Once you listen to it, especially the slow movement that seems to describe the experience of living under a dictatorship so well (that's what it says to me), you cannot dismiss Prokofiev's symphonic talents. And his violin concertos seem to be more compact and get more to the point than Shostakovich's longer and seemingly more laboured efforts. But that's just my personal opinion.
> 
> I think if you look at it, both composers were great at what they did in the times they did it.


When Shostakovich started having serious heart problems, this event had a very negative influence in his music, the 14th symphony is very dark, ir speaks a lot about death. Prokofiev had a big change is his life, at first he flirted a lot with the devil. His opera the feiry angel, and the... Diaboliques, etc. He started afterwards a very religious period. Their lives were completely different, Shosta never quit the USSR, Prokofiev lived in France and decided to return to his country... Prokofiev was always an "enfant terrible", Shosta was more the intellectual type... But he join the communist party and became quite rich... Both were banned by Stalin, but Prokofiev died the same day the dictator died, Shosta lived much more... Prokofiev's operas are awesome and these are an important part of his production, forgetting his operas is forgetting a big part of his output. Shosta just composed a few...as you may know...

Martin


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## myaskovsky2002

HarpsichordConcerto said:


> Karajan did an excellent #5. Recommended. It comes with #1. Now it is as cheap as chips.


Karajan is gooood, for Prokofiev he's baaaaad.

Martin, who knows what he's speaking about


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## myaskovsky2002

Moscow-Mahler said:


> You mean Lina?


Martha Argerich is Argentinian

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martha_Argerich


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## joen_cph

> Karajan is gooood, for Prokofiev he's baaaaad.
> 
> Martin, who knows what he's speaking about


Have you heard Karajan´s version of the 5th ?

Found an unusual excerpt of an issue of the 5th conducted by *Stokowski* in the USSR in 1958:


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## myaskovsky2002

joen_cph said:


> Have you heard Karajan´s version of the 5th ?
> 
> Found an unusual excerpt of an issue of the 5th conducted by *Stokowski* in the USSR in 1958:


Personally, I am not a Stokowsky fan. For Prokofiev I would suggest Mravinsky or Rozhdestvensky. Stokowsky is far in the past and IMHO he never was a "real" Russian... I love the Adagio from the 5th, it is by far one of the best moments of Prokofiev's symphonies. His 7th is rather not that good, weak. I don't need to listen to Karajan. He's too German, his Richard Strauss is an Apotheosis... But you need to be soviet to understand Sergei.

Martin, a real Prokofiev lover


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## joen_cph

I´m not saying that the Stokowski 5th excerpt is the best version either, but he has some interesting details in the phrasing. He made a lot of excellent records, in his Decca period for instance, I am generally a fan of him.

Rozhdestvensky and Mravinsky are good options in Prokofiev. I haven´t dug that much into recordings of the symphonies yet. 
As regards the 5th, I´ve got Rozhdestvensky, Martinon, Karajan, Järvi and Dorati/Mercury (unfortunately the last one is the mono issue, the stereo must be much better to listen to). I tend to like Järvi too.

Svetlanov´s old Melodiya recording of the 1st and Kondrashin/Concertgebouw in the 3rd are unusually fine; I can say that at least.


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## myaskovsky2002

Svetlanov is good for Myaskovsky probably, Prokofiev is not his style. Each condutor has his/her limitations.

You can take a look to my Russian collection or whatever you want to see.

http://www3.bell.net/svp1

Sincerely,

Мартин


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## joen_cph

Svetlanov´s 1st is not in your collection, I can see that & I don´t agree with you ;-). Nobody I´ve heard takes the Finale as he does.

But yes, Svetlanov is good in Myaskovsky, also Scriabin and Kalinnikov and the early melodiya Balakirev recordings (not the later hyperions), to mention some.


----------



## myaskovsky2002

Светланов is many times in my collection, not for Prokofiev, because before buying any cd I try to have some informations. Svetlanov as far as I know is not known for Prokofiev nor Shostakovich... Not modern composers... He conducted many Rimsky-Korsakov operas and I guess his are the best versions. Following their recommendations, I've just bought the Martha Argerich's 3rd concerto. Very very inexpensive! Not even 5$, new, Deutsche Grammophon.

Martin

P.S. I am not here for arguing


----------



## joen_cph

Yes - Svetlanov in Rimsky generally, and Martha in the 3rd Concerto, are really great.


----------



## myaskovsky2002

joen_cph said:


> Yes - Svetlanov in Rimsky generally, and Martha in the 3rd Concerto, are really great.


I totally agree... Each conductor has a "range" of composer where they are excellent... Imagine Stokowsky conducting Ligeti or Schönberg...

Martin, relieved


----------



## BurningDesire

I really need to hear more of the great Prokofiev's music. My only real exposure at the moment are some of his piano solo pieces like the Toccata (one of my roommates last semester was learning that), and his ballets Romeo and Juliet and Cinderella, and of course Peter and the Wolf, all of which I love. Its like if Tchaikovsky got really dark and sneering (over-simplification I know), and I especially love Romeo and Juliet. Any recommendations for listening? :3


----------



## myaskovsky2002

BurningDesire said:


> I really need to hear more of the great Prokofiev's music. My only real exposure at the moment are some of his piano solo pieces like the Toccata (one of my roommates last semester was learning that), and his ballets Romeo and Juliet and Cinderella, and of course Peter and the Wolf, all of which I love. Its like if Tchaikovsky got really dark and sneering (over-simplification I know), and I especially love Romeo and Juliet. Any recommendations for listening? :3


Again, if you like opera, his operas are absolutely awesome.
If I remember well, he composed ten.

Martin


----------



## BurningDesire

I'm kinda ambivalent to opera. I've never heard a complete one (other than works like Sweeney Todd, and musicals, which I consider operas, but I know aren't generally categorized as such). I like some bits of operas I've heard, but I tend to love instrumental music most, especially like tone poems and ballets, and solo piano literature.


----------



## myaskovsky2002

BurningDesire said:


> I'm kinda ambivalent to opera. I've never heard a complete one (other than works like Sweeney Todd, and musicals, which I consider operas, but I know aren't generally categorized as such). I like some bits of operas I've heard, but I tend to love instrumental music most, especially like tone poems and ballets, and solo piano literature.


I think I knew it... Well. Bye.

Martin


----------



## joen_cph

myaskovsky2002 said:


> I totally agree... Each conductor has a "range" of composer where they are excellent... Imagine Stokowsky conducting Ligeti or Schönberg...
> 
> Martin, relieved


I just bought an old Stokowski RCA LP yesterday, Schoenberg´s "Verklärte Nacht", and it´s fantastic 
( 



 ). It is coupled with Prokofiev "Romeo & Juliet" exceprts, likewise fine, though not inclduing the most famous parts of the ballet. His "Gurre-Lieder" are often recommended, but I haven´t heard them. Nonetheless Stokowski gave the US premiere of "Wozzeck" in 1930, http://www.library.upenn.edu/exhibits/rbm/stokowski/berg.html

But I get your point; he would be challenged by the later Schoenberg works, no doubt romanticizing their content, and perhaps having trouble making them coherent.


----------



## myaskovsky2002

joen_cph said:


> I just bought an old Stokowski RCA LP yesterday, Schoenberg´s "Verklärte Nacht", and it´s fantastic
> (
> 
> 
> 
> ). It is coupled with Prokofiev "Romeo & Juliet" exceprts, likewise fine, though not inclduing the most famous parts of the ballet. His "Gurre-Lieder" are often recommended, but I haven´t heard them. Nonetheless Stokowski gave the US premiere of "Wozzeck" in 1930, http://www.library.upenn.edu/exhibits/rbm/stokowski/berg.html
> 
> But I get your point; he would be challenged by the later Schoenberg works, no doubt romanticizing their content, and perhaps having trouble making them coherent.


Well, if you like it...

Martin


----------



## techniquest

> I'm kinda ambivalent to opera. I've never heard a complete one (other than works like Sweeney Todd, and musicals, which I consider operas, but I know aren't generally categorized as such). I like some bits of operas I've heard, but I tend to love instrumental music most, especially like tone poems and ballets, and solo piano literature.


Prokofiev wrote a few ballets, the best of which are Romeo & Juliet (of course) and Cinderella; but there are also Le Pas d'Acier, Chout, The Stone Flower and The Prodigal Son. If you prefer instrumental music, then maybe try a couple of his shorter pieces such as the Russian Overture or the Overture on Hebrew Themes (a chamber work). I would also heartily recommend his 1st (but not his 2nd) Violin Concerto. Happy listening


----------



## jerrymaker

*analysis of classical symphony prokofiev*

can anyone provide me with this?
many thanks
jerry


----------



## Manxfeeder

I don't know how detailed you want it. If you have Spotify, if you search under "Prokofiev Classical Symphony Musically Speaking," Gerard Schwartz gives his analysis of it.


----------



## etkearne

I finally started my Prokofiev adventure with Piano Concerto No. 2, as the style, from what I have read, looks up my alley. I haven't listened to it yet...I will in a few hours. I'll let you all know my thoughts.


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## etkearne

So, after a few good listens to the Piano Concerto, I can definitely say that I have warmed up to Mr. Prokofiev's style. At first I found it too theatrical, enjoying typically thinner orchestrated scores. But the more I listened, I was able to really get in-to the harsh timbres and dissonances as well as haunting, but beautiful melodic structures. I am sure that I will eventually collect all of the Piano Concertos. But for now, I am still in the honeymoon phase for Piano Concerto No. 2.

Thanks to all who opened my eyes to this composer.


----------



## starthrower

BurningDesire said:


> I'm kinda ambivalent to opera. I've never heard a complete one (other than works like Sweeney Todd, and musicals, which I consider operas, but I know aren't generally categorized as such). I like some bits of operas I've heard, but I tend to love instrumental music most, especially like tone poems and ballets, and solo piano literature.


Well Prokofiev wrote plenty of instrumental music! I've never been an opera listener, but there are a couple that I've been listening to online, and I'm thinking of buying some recordings. Bartok's Bluebeard's Castle, and Prokofiev's Love For Three Oranges. I found Gergiev's recording at my library, so I'm going to give it a listen.

I'm a fan of his piano concertos nos. 2 & 3. I'm more familiar with no. 2, and I love it from start to finish. It's an awesome work! I haven't really delved into his solo piano music, but I've heard great things about the 4 disc set on Ondine by Matti Raekallio.

I like the sound of Alexander Nevsky, but I can't decided on a recording.


----------



## nikitema

BurningDesire said:


> I really need to hear more of the great Prokofiev's music. My only real exposure at the moment are some of his piano solo pieces like the Toccata (one of my roommates last semester was learning that), and his ballets Romeo and Juliet and Cinderella, and of course Peter and the Wolf, all of which I love. Its like if Tchaikovsky got really dark and sneering (over-simplification I know), and I especially love Romeo and Juliet. Any recommendations for listening? :3


I would like to recommend to listen Six piano concertos. It's great music, my favorite piano works.


----------



## PhileasFogg

From a glance at this thread it seems Peter and the Wolf doesn't get much adulation. It may not be musically complex but I feel that this lack of attention toward it is more reactionary to its popularity. It's a beautiful work and thematically an introduction of sorts to the Russian world of music. It was one of the first classical soundtracks I heard as a child and I do not hold the opinion that adulthood and education in classical music can train one's ears to better discern quality music than a child or unfamiliar listener can, only to understand it better. I take my Russian hat off to the work and hope it encourages many new generations of listeners


----------



## Ravndal

Oh, Prokofiev. I love you.


----------



## Blake

Most excellent. One of those composers who didn't quite click with me at first... and then the lights came on.


----------



## shangoyal

Just got into his music. He is probably the 8th or 9th new composer I have started listening to since coming to Talk Classical, and not one has disappointed me. Prokofiev restored my trust in 20th century music, along with Shostakovich.


----------



## Vaneyes

shangoyal said:


> Just got into his music. He is probably the 8th or 9th new composer I have started listening to since coming to Talk Classical, and not one has disappointed me. Prokofiev restored my trust in 20th century music, along with Shostakovich.


Good for you, and don't overlook *Scriabin* and *Myaskovsky*.


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## PetrB

shangoyal said:


> Just got into his music. He is probably the 8th or 9th new composer I have started listening to since coming to Talk Classical, and not one has disappointed me. Prokofiev restored my trust in 20th century music, along with Shostakovich.


LOL. They're great, and both, in one suit or another, very 'modern' late romantics


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## EdwardBast

Having perused this entire thread, I find that some of Prokofiev's very best work has been neglected. The piano sonatas are, for me, the very center of his output. He was arguably the foremost composer of piano sonatas in the twentieth century. Sonatas 6, 7, and 8 are masterpieces, 4, 5, and 9 merely superb. Yefim Bronfman's recordings of the whole set are wonderful — on a par with his recordings of the complete concertos.

Another masterpiece neglected in this thread is his Violin Sonata no. 1 in F minor.


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## Cosmos

I love Prokofiev! My favorites have always been Romeo and Juliet, the symphonies, the piano concertos, his "war" sonatas, and violin concertos


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## hpowders

Prokofiev deserves to be considered as one of the 10 greatest composers of all time:
The ballet, Romeo and Juliet, the first and 5th symphonies, the 2 violin concertos, the 5 piano concertos, the war time piano sonatas, the violin sonatas, etc;
Speaks for itself.


----------



## Berlioznestpasmort

Please don't forget the violin sonatas. If CDs could be worn-out, my copy, courtesy of Shlomo Mintz & Yefim Bronfman, would have been! The first sonata marks for me one of those times _my_ impressions of a work matched precisely the intentions of the composer : there is a passage in the first movement that on first listening, I told my wife, "Wow, that sounds exactly like the wind playing about headstones." Sure, sure, active imagination in action, she thought. A later reading of the insert confirmed my suspicions: "The final section, framed and punctuated with by the main theme overlaid with pizzicato figuration, consists of eerie violin scales accompanied by a fixed sequence of somber piano chords. Prokofiev apparently remarked that this chilling passage was to sound like "wind in a graveyard." (Richard Longman)


----------



## Marschallin Blair

*Epic Prokofiev Anyone?*





















It certainly gets me out of _my_ mood of idle sauntering. Ha. Ha. Ha.


----------



## Avey

Is _Cinderella_--complete ballet or suites--widely underrated and ignored? This is me asking.

Because, like, why?


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## PetrB

Avey said:


> Is _Cinderella_--complete ballet or suites--widely underrated and ignored? This is me asking.
> 
> Because, like, why?


It is a fine work. Prokofiev had fallen under the opprobrium of the state's "music police," with their nonsense bureaucratic criticisms that he had not written (whatever piece or symphony had incurred the wrath of the music police) for the proletariat.

Cinderella was next, and taking a submissive "tame" route chosen by way of necessity to get back in the good graces of the powers that be, he composed a very accessible score using all sorts of old forms, gavotte, etc. and kept to the realm of simpler and readily accessible melody with mild harmonic accompaniments (a protean melodist, Prokofiev had numerous sketch-books filled with melodies and ideas ready to use at the drop of a hat.)

I listened once to all three suites in a row (I imagine nearly the complete ballet with only a little of 'incidental / utility' music not in those) and it was a great listen with oodles of charm... but, all that simple melodic charm as gifted and deft as it is, did begin to pall a bit when heard back to back, i.e. it began to sound all too more than a little sweet, without much bite.


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## hpowders

It is inferior to Romeo and Juliet, in my opinion, Prokofiev's greatest work.


----------



## Richannes Wrahms

I love symphonies 1, 2, 7 and all his chamber music. But symphonies 5 and 6 don't really do much to me, it seems like the dissonance (or the "sharpness" to avoid misusing the word) was "forced" into the material which has nothing to do with it. Symphonies 3 and 4 are well put together and I like them as much as his program stuff, which is not too much but still.


----------



## Avey

PetrB said:


> Cinderella was next, and taking a submissive "tame" route chosen by way of necessity to get back in the good graces of the powers that be, he composed a very accessible score using all sorts of old forms, gavotte, etc. and kept to the realm of simpler and readily accessible melody with mild harmonic accompaniments (a protean melodist, Prokofiev had numerous sketch-books filled with melodies and ideas ready to use at the drop of a hat.)
> 
> ... but, all that simple melodic charm as gifted and deft as it is, did begin to pall a bit when heard back to back, i.e. it began to sound all too more than a little sweet, without much bite.


That's fair. I can see some "tame" material there.

But honestly, still, I find it to be incredibly _modern_, as would be used in his day. Sure, there are the "old forms" in waltzes and such, but the first suite, for instance, does not end "a little sweet, without much bite." I hear anything but sweetness, and only intense dramatic material. The dance doesn't only end at the strike of Midnight, but it ends with stress, anxiety, absolute ache -- all _because of_ the strike of Midnight.

I digress, but in sum, I generally disagree with your characterization of the music. I don't doubt the history -- that may be what Prokofiev intended -- but for aural purposes, I see anything but "simple melodic charm."


----------



## tahnak

hpowders said:


> Prokofiev deserves to be considered as one of the 10 greatest composers of all time:
> The ballet, Romeo and Juliet, the first and 5th symphonies, the 2 violin concertos, the 5 piano concertos, the war time piano sonatas, the violin sonatas, etc;
> Speaks for itself.


Among the symphonies, there is no mention of the Seventh Symphony which I hold as his greatest work. Lieutenant Kije is also a superb score.


----------



## Guest

I want to buy the complete symphonies, and note the following recommendations...

http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/w/89839

These two are well commended by Amazon buyers...
















Three questions: Can anyone comment on either of these two? If not, is there a collection someone can comment on: which would TCers recommend and why? Will I find anything as uplifting, exciting yet insane as the 5th among symphonies 2-7?


----------



## wrycker

I can still remember that time when, attracted by the famous movement "Dance of the Knights", I decided to listen something more of his ballet Romeo and Juliet. As I heard the first seconds of the Introduction I loved it so much I went that very evening to buy the CD.


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## hpowders

Yeah. I have three recordings of Romeo and Juliet and have enjoyed seeing the ballet performed live quite a few times.
It's my favorite ballet music.


----------



## Vaneyes

MacLeod said:


> I want to buy the complete symphonies, and note the following recommendations...
> 
> http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/w/89839
> 
> These two are well commended by Amazon buyers...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Three questions: Can anyone comment on either of these two? If not, is there a collection someone can comment on: which would TCers recommend and why? Will I find anything as uplifting, exciting yet insane as the 5th among symphonies 2-7?


If you want the most exciting, get Rozhdestvensky's 60's set. It's a wild ride, not perfect, but no set is.

Though Jarvi is the clear choice versus Weller, both can be soft in their readings. :tiphat:


----------



## KenOC

Vaneyes said:


> If you want the most exciting, get Rozhdestvensky's 60's set. It's a wild ride, not perfect, but no set is.


Agree totally. The playing is a bit raw, which doesn't hurt a bit in these works.


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## wrycker

Am I the only one who loved Peter and the Wolf since watching the Disney movie for it? xD


----------



## wrycker

Chi_townPhilly said:


> Now, _that's_ an imaginative citation. I have that work on some old piece of vinyl somewhere. So... there are some memories tied to the mention of it.
> 
> I've previously said "the older I get, the more I appreciate Prokofiev." Yeah... I like symphonies 1 and 5- but my favorite Prokofiev composition is *Violin Concerto #1.*


Just listened to this violin concerto the previous day and I got shocked


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## hpowders

I like the second violin concerto better, especially in the Heifetz/Munch BSO performance.


----------



## Avey

Recently, I have been delving in (read: meandering through) Prokofiev's chamber music. Such fantastic work, and I am disappointed that I ignored some of these pieces for so long in favor of his larger scale orchestral compositions.

There's a particular intensity that emanates from little and reluctant instrumentation. It is an intensity not found in layers, but in subtlety. Prokofiev's chamber works underscore this point. 

For instance, there is the bombastic and seering narratives in the 2nd, 5th symphonies or Scythian Suite, and the intricately dense, lush sounds of the 4th, 6th, and R&J, and even geniously reticent and contemplative Cinderella ballet or violin concertos. 

But with his chamber works, the passion is almost stripped and bare. There is less animation and more elucidation. The sonata for two violins, the string quartets, the cello sonata -- Prokofiev's spirit is present in outline form, a very simple, salient rendition. And here, we are offered something vastly different in passion and persuasion than his orchestral works. 

The contrast between styles is stark, yet similar. As if, really, you just simply are not apt to think of Prokofiev as a subtle, attenuated composer, yet it all comes off similarly profound and penetrating. Maybe that is a Russian symptom? Regardless, I am fascinated.

I'd be hard-pressed to find a composer who has grown on me more in the past year than Prokofiev. And I have so much yet to discover.


----------



## violadude

Avey said:


> Recently, I have been delving in (read: meandering through) Prokofiev's chamber music. Such fantastic work, and I am disappointed that I ignored some of these pieces for so long in favor of his larger scale orchestral compositions.
> 
> There's a particular intensity that emanates from little and reluctant instrumentation. It is an intensity not found in layers, but in subtlety. Prokofiev's chamber works underscore this point.
> 
> For instance, there is the bombastic and seering narratives in the 2nd, 5th symphonies or Scythian Suite, and the intricately dense, lush sounds of the 4th, 6th, and R&J, and even geniously reticent and contemplative Cinderella ballet or violin concertos.
> 
> But with his chamber works, the passion is almost stripped and bare. There is less animation and more elucidation. The sonata for two violins, the string quartets, the cello sonata -- Prokofiev's spirit is present in outline form, a very simple, salient rendition. And here, we are offered something vastly different in passion and persuasion than his orchestral works.
> 
> The contrast between styles is stark, yet similar. As if, really, you just simply are not apt to think of Prokofiev as a subtle, attenuated composer, yet it all comes off similarly profound and penetrating. Maybe that is a Russian symptom? Regardless, I am fascinated.
> 
> I'd be hard-pressed to find a composer who has grown on me more in the past year than Prokofiev. And I have so much yet to discover.


Have you listened to the piano sonatas yet? Definitely check those out if not.


----------



## EdwardBast

violadude said:


> Have you listened to the piano sonatas yet? Definitely check those out if not.


Yes, the piano sonatas are essential I think. But while on chamber music, don't forget the quintet, the flute sonata, and, IMO, the best of the genre: the first violin sonata.


----------



## Guest

Currently enjoying the Mariinsky Orchestra's Easter concert from 2012. Gergiev conducting the 2nd Symphony (2nd Piano Concerto and Symphony 3 coming up).

I love it. I think. How am I supposed to know whether I'm being treated to a good performance or not? The amount of dissonance and the counter rhythms make almost the entire first movement sound like an orchestra deliberately playing all the wrong notes, conducted by a man who doesn't have the faintest idea what he's doing! The intense expressions on the faces of some of the performers suggest they might be thinking, "FFS, what is this man making me play???"

Has anyone else seen this performance?

One thing's for certain: after Symphony No 1, Prokofiev wanted to get as far away from Haydn as possible!


----------



## Guest

Tiring of the soapboxing and polling in too many other threads, I thought I might 'bump' a discussion about some music.

I guess that Prokofiev is nearly as unpopular as Schoenberg and Salieri, otherwise hundreds would by now have flocked to listen to






It's OK - it may be a Russian concert, but it doesn't really require translation.


----------



## hpowders

Prokofiev is in my top 10. Anything posted about him is of interest to me.

One of the most original composers of all time!


----------



## nightscape

I'm listening to his Sinfonia Concertante as I type this. Great stuff.


----------



## hpowders

Tossup as to who was the greatest Russian composer, Tchaikovsky or Prokofiev. For my modern sensibility, it was Prokofiev.


----------



## Guest

MacLeod said:


> Tiring of the soapboxing and polling in too many other threads, I thought I might 'bump' a discussion about some music.
> 
> I guess that Prokofiev is nearly as unpopular as Schoenberg and Salieri, otherwise hundreds would by now have flocked to listen to
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It's OK - it may be a Russian concert, but it doesn't really require translation.


Listened to the next two of these Easter Concerts - though as yet not finished either. I like both 4th and 6th symphonies, and was enjoying Piano Concerto for the Left Hand when I was drawn away for supper.

Two observations. Gergiev conducts like no other I've seen - except perhaps Dudamel, but I've not seen so much of him. Does anyone else find his mannerisms distracting?

And does anyone else hear Madonna/William Orbit in the opening to the 7th Symphony? (Yes, yes, yes, trivial, I know, and yes, I do know who came first!)


----------



## Sonata

Just picked up his complete piano concertos and Stone Flower. I love the piano concerto genre and I love Prokofiev's Romeo and Juliet and Cinderella so I'm very excited to give both a listen!


----------



## Emile

God, I'm completely addicted to his music, I can sing or whistle almost every single piece he wrote.
I don't know what's the secret ingredient he added that makes me love his very particular style.


----------



## joen_cph

Heard the fragment of *Piano Sonata no.10 *for the first time, on a radio programme - it could have become a very nice work


----------



## hpowders

Don't forget the 2 violin concertos too!


----------



## Headphone Hermit

Emile said:


> God, I'm completely addicted to his music, I can sing or whistle almost every single piece he wrote.
> I don't know what's the secret ingredient he added that makes me love his very particular style.


What an astonishing talent you must have! I wish I had that level of musical memory - very jealous!


----------



## Headphone Hermit

hpowders said:


> Yeah. I have three recordings of Romeo and Juliet and have enjoyed seeing the ballet performed live quite a few times.
> It's my favorite ballet music.


I also love this piece - it was one of the first that ignited my love of classical music (from an advert for perfume in 1983).
I cried when I went to see it 12 years later. I was married (and sitting next to my wife at the time) and I realised that I had never loved anyone in the way that Romeo and Juliet did (and certainly not my soon-to-be ex-wife!)


----------



## hpowders

Headphone Hermit said:


> I also love this piece - it was one of the first that ignited my love of classical music (from an advert for perfume in 1983).
> I cried when I went to see it 12 years later. I was married (and sitting next to my wife at the time) and I realised that I had never loved anyone in the way that Romeo and Juliet did (and certainly not my soon-to-be ex-wife!)


That's interesting. Not only watching Romeo and Juliet, but also, so many damn movies! I think, "why can't I find love like that? So much passion and ecstasy!"


----------



## Headphone Hermit

hpowders said:


> That's interesting. Not only watching Romeo and Juliet, but also, so many damn movies! I think, "why can't I find love like that? So much passion and ecstasy!"


I wish I could help you with an answer, my friend!


----------



## EdwardBast

joen_cph said:


> Heard the fragment of *Piano Sonata no.10 *for the first time, on a radio programme - it could have become a very nice work


This sounds like a tasteless publicity ploy. First of all, who slapped a title and opus number on this fragment? There must have been hundreds of fragments left in his notebooks. Is there any documentary evidence he thought himself to be actively working on a tenth sonata? Not that I've heard. In any case, just because the fragment seems to have been written for piano does not mean it would have ended up in a piano work. Prokofiev was exceedingly flexible in moving material from one context to another.


----------



## hpowders

Headphone Hermit said:


> I wish I could help you with an answer, my friend!


Ha! Ha! Thanks! The tragedy is it probably was somewhere out there. Like looking for a needle in a haystack.


----------



## Headphone Hermit

.... and maybe she was looking in the haystacks for needles and all she got was a load of pr##ks?


----------



## hpowders

Headphone Hermit said:


> .... and maybe she was looking in the haystacks for needles and all she got was a load of pr##ks?


Sad, but probably true. My crime is I wasn't born a "bad boy".


----------



## violadude

EdwardBast said:


> This sounds like a tasteless publicity ploy. First of all, who slapped a title and opus number on this fragment? There must have been hundreds of fragments left in his notebooks. Is there any documentary evidence he thought himself to be actively working on a tenth sonata? Not that I've heard. In any case, just because the fragment seems to have been written for piano does not mean it would have ended up in a piano work. Prokofiev was exceedingly flexible in moving material from one context to another.


I don't know if this helps but the 10 piano sonata fragment IS included in my complete Prokofiev piano sonatas CD set performed by Boris Berman, who has also written a book about them.


----------



## EdwardBast

hpowders said:


> That's interesting. Not only watching Romeo and Juliet, but also, so many damn movies! I think, "why can't I find love like that? So much passion and ecstasy!"


Because they were fourteen years old and stupid and you aren't?


----------



## EdwardBast

violadude said:


> I don't know if this helps but the 10 piano sonata fragment IS included in my complete Prokofiev piano sonatas CD set performed by Boris Berman, who has also written a book about them.


Ah, then Berman is the likely culprit. Thanks Dude!


----------



## hpowders

EdwardBast said:


> Because they were fourteen years old and stupid and you aren't?


Maybe...but I'd rather take a stupid pill sometimes in order to have passionate love without analyzing it! :lol::lol:


----------



## 20centrfuge

Prokofiev has little by little grown to be my absolute favorite composer. I am sure I will write many things on this forum section devoted to him, but for now I will just list some of the pieces that I feel have established Prokofiev as a legend in my mind:

Piano Sonatas 4,6,7,8; Piano Concertos 1,2; Violin Concerto 1; Romeo and Juliet; Waltz Suite; Symphonies 3,5,6; Visions Fugitives. For me, Prokofiev has just the perfect combination and waxing/waning of dissonance, absurdity, gentleness, devilishness, bravado, humor, and personality. I simply love his music.


----------



## hpowders

Funny how people are different. I will take Prokofiev's Second Violin Concerto over his first any day.


----------



## pianississimo

tknowlton said:


> Prokofiev has little by little grown to be my absolute favorite composer. I am sure I will write many things on this forum section devoted to him, but for now I will just list some of the pieces that I feel have established Prokofiev as a legend in my mind:
> 
> Piano Sonatas 4,6,7,8; Piano Concertos 1,2; Violin Concerto 1; Romeo and Juliet; Waltz Suite; Symphonies 3,5,6; Visions Fugitives. For me, Prokofiev has just the perfect combination and waxing/waning of dissonance, absurdity, gentleness, devilishness, bravado, humor, and personality. I simply love his music.


me too.  I love the third piano concerto and the violin sonatas also. Check out this recording by Berezovsky and Repin http://www.amazon.com/Prokofiev-Violin-Sonatas-Sergei/dp/B000005E3L Also have you heard his two string quartets ?


----------



## TxllxT

tknowlton said:


> Prokofiev has little by little grown to be my absolute favorite composer. I am sure I will write many things on this forum section devoted to him, but for now I will just list some of the pieces that I feel have established Prokofiev as a legend in my mind:
> 
> Piano Sonatas 4,6,7,8; Piano Concertos 1,2; Violin Concerto 1; Romeo and Juliet; Waltz Suite; Symphonies 3,5,6; Visions Fugitives. For me, Prokofiev has just the perfect combination and waxing/waning of dissonance, absurdity, gentleness, devilishness, bravado, humor, and personality. I simply love his music.


His operas & ballets

















have both the grand gesture and the attention to detail (both instrumental & voice), that time & time again arouse me to better listening.

As for his piano compositions I advice to go for Vladimir Ashkenazy


----------



## Vaneyes

Recommended for the String Quartets, and the unheralded Quintet in G minor, Op. 39, scored for oboe, clarinet, violin, viola, double bass. The latter's my favorite Prokofiev chamber work.:tiphat:


----------



## pianississimo

Vaneyes said:


> Recommended for the String Quartets, and the unheralded Quintet in G minor, Op. 39, scored for oboe, clarinet, violin, viola, double bass. The latter's my favorite Prokofiev chamber work.:tiphat:


wow, hadn't heard that one.
I heard one of the string quartets performed in London last year. I loved it. It has all of Prokofiev's spiky and humoristic character but in quartet form. So fascinating how he uses this format - almost the only works of his (apart from his symphonies which I also love) with no piano that I've heard. It seems strange to say but it was like Prokofiev in tails, out for a posh night out


----------



## pianississimo

Vaneyes said:


> Recommended for the String Quartets, and the unheralded Quintet in G minor, Op. 39, scored for oboe, clarinet, violin, viola, double bass. The latter's my favorite Prokofiev chamber work.:tiphat:


I managed to find a recording of the quintet. I love it already. I think Prokofiev liked using the oboe, and uses it to great effect here. He's a master at layering melodies too and this format really seems to suit him.


----------



## hpowders

Vaneyes said:


> Recommended for the String Quartets, and the unheralded Quintet in G minor, Op. 39, scored for oboe, clarinet, violin, viola, double bass. The latter's my favorite Prokofiev chamber work.:tiphat:


I love Prokofiev, yet I've never heard the Quintet. Love what Prokofiev could do with G minor as in the Second Violin Concerto.


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## Stavrogin

Not to mention his 2nd Piano concerto in the same key


----------



## hpowders

Stavrogin said:


> Not to mention his 2nd Piano concerto in the same key


When I was a teenager, the Prokofiev Second Piano Concerto was my favorite piano concerto. I heard it performed live several times. Too bad Van Cliburn never recorded it. I love his recording of the Prokofiev Third Piano Concerto.


----------



## Stavrogin

hpowders said:


> When I was a teenager, the Prokofiev Second Piano Concerto was my favorite piano concerto. I heard it performed live several times. Too bad Van Cliburn never recorded it. I love his recording of the Prokofiev Third Piano Concerto.


I thought that when you were a teenager the Prokofiev 2 had not been written yet.

:°) I kid I kid


----------



## hpowders

Stavrogin said:


> I thought that when you were a teenager the Prokofiev 2 had not been written yet.
> 
> :°) I kid I kid


Ha! Ha! I grew up listening to music starting in the late 1950's. My favorite performance of the Prokofiev G minor Violin Concerto is with Jascha Heifetz as soloist and Charles Munch leading the Boston Symphony. This performance remains unsurpassed even until this day.


----------



## 20centrfuge

Vaneyes said:


> Recommended for the String Quartets, and the unheralded Quintet in G minor, Op. 39, scored for oboe, clarinet, violin, viola, double bass. The latter's my favorite Prokofiev chamber work.:tiphat:


I'll have to check those two out. Those are some of the few Prokofiev pieces I don't know.


----------



## Dustin

Can anyone tell me why Prokofiev's piano sonatas are so relatively unaccessible compared to his other works that I've heard?(Romeo and Juliet, Piano Concerto 2 and 3, Cinderella, Violin Sonatas). I'm not saying that I won't grow to like them but I've listened to a couple of them on a couple occasions and got almost no enjoyment from first listen, perhaps owing to a more complex/dissonant style? What's going on here?


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## pianississimo

it's very dense music. When speaking about the 8th sonata, even Prokofiev wondered if he'd put too many layers in it.
For me, Prokofiev is such a great melodist that I can listen to the denser pieces enough times to sort out the different parts and appreciate the pieces. The melodies guide you through and this can't always be said for other composers of his time - Scriabin for example.

Listen to the playing of the 8th by Tatiana Nikolayeva. She plays without blurring the lines and without fear of the more powerful sections. When the dolcissimo section arrives it's like sunrise!
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Russian-Pia...&sr=1-3-catcorr&keywords=nikolayeva+prokofiev


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## hpowders

His piano concertos are definitely more accessible than his piano sonatas.


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## 20centrfuge

Dustin said:


> Can anyone tell me why Prokofiev's piano sonatas are so relatively unaccessible compared to his other works that I've heard?(Romeo and Juliet, Piano Concerto 2 and 3, Cinderella, Violin Sonatas). I'm not saying that I won't grow to like them but I've listened to a couple of them on a couple occasions and got almost no enjoyment from first listen, perhaps owing to a more complex/dissonant style? What's going on here?


I believe Prokofiev deliberately made them his most progressive and challenging works. I agree with you that the three sonatas 6-8 are the most modern and wild of Prokofiev's works. They require a bit more patience and maybe more listening repetitions.

Recordings: Pogorelich for 6 is the standard, IMO; Pollini for 7; 8 is a little more of a toss up. I think Chiu is good but so is Richter. Richter also has the distinct advantage of having known the composer.


----------



## 20centrfuge

pianississimo said:


> Listen to the playing of the 8th by Tatiana Nikolayeva. She plays without blurring the lines and without fear of the more powerful sections. When the dolcissimo section arrives it's like sunrise!
> http://www.amazon.co.uk/Russian-Pia...&sr=1-3-catcorr&keywords=nikolayeva+prokofiev


Thanks for the recommendation! I am unfamiliar with this recording. Can't wait to check it out.


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## Albert7

I loved hearing your Symphony No. 1 live a few weeks ago with the Utah Symphony.


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## hpowders

Prokofiev Piano Concerto No. 3 Lang Lang, Berlin Philharmonic/Simon Rattle.

Buy it. Listen to it. Absorb it. Put it back in jewel case.


----------



## pianississimo

Nikolai Lugansky in this recording. Throw away all the others and save the shelf space.


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## 20centrfuge

I first heard this piece and this recording in about 2004. 9/11 was still relatively fresh in everyone's minds. I read a review of this piece that likened the first movement to the cataclysmic fall of the twin towers -- apocalyptic music. This reviewer also felt that the music was restorative as well. This piece can easily represent a sinister and apocalyptic time.

I had also recently read the novel by Bram Stoker: Dracula. This Symphony seemed to me to be PERFECT material for a motion picture score for a faithful Dracula film adaptation. It is very dark and evil but also has sweeping melodies that somehow make me feel like I'm partaking of Hollywood's golden age -- Early 20th Century.

Lastly I will just say that I believe this "demonic" (for lack of a better word) side of some of Prokofiev's works represents a critical component of his personality as a composer. It can be heard in moments of many of his works, namely the beginning of the third movement of Piano Concerto no2 (especially at a slower tempo such as in the Feltsman recording)









Of course this music need not be programmatic, but it does feel more programmatic than most of P's works (and is itself an adaptation of the opera - Fiery Angel).
What is your favorite recording of this work? What are your thoughts on this piece?


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## 20centrfuge

Another recording of Symphony no3


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## hpowders

My favorite Heifetz performance happens to be of the Prokofiev Second Violin Concerto with the Boston Symphony/Charles Munch.

He's the only violinist who smooths out all the difficulties.


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## Guest




----------



## Rehydration

I recently heard the op. 94 flute sonata performed by my sister's flute teacher, and it was the most fiery argument between a piano and another instrument I have ever heard. It was beautiful.
Unfortunately I don't have any recommended recordings.



TxllxT said:


> As for his piano compositions I advice to go for Vladimir Ashkenazy





20centrfuge said:


> [Piano Sonata No.] 8 is a little more of a toss up. ...Richter [is good].


I second both of these.


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## worov

My favourite is this one :


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## EdwardBast

hpowders said:


> My favorite Heifetz performance happens to be of the Prokofiev Second Violin Concerto with the Boston Symphony/Charles Munch.
> 
> He's the only violinist who smooths out all the difficulties.


Hey powders, I own this recording on vinyl, Mendelssohn's E minor on the other side. Have had it since childhood, a gift from my mom.


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## hpowders

EdwardBast said:


> Hey powders, I own this recording on vinyl, Mendelssohn's E minor on the other side. Have had it since childhood, a gift from my mom.


I have the same one. Both terrific performances. The good old vinyl days.


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## dzc4627

Karbardinian is a very rich string quartet. great to listen to on a morning walk, looking into the day. thanks prokofiev!


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## EDaddy

I've been listening to Prokofiev's Violin Concerto No. 1 with Maxim Vengerov, Mstislav Rostropovich and the LSO. I am struck by how modern-sounding the writing is... very progressive as far as violin concertos go, but not at the expense of architectural logic and flow. Vengerov's violin playing is both emotive and virtuosic, with spot-on support by the LSO and Rostropovich. I can strongly recommend this performance. Lots of fire here.


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## Skilmarilion

EDaddy said:


> I've been listening to Prokofiev's Violin Concerto No. 1 with Maxim Vengerov, Mstislav Rostropovich and the LSO. I am struck by how modern-sounding the writing is... very progressive as far as violin concertos go...


Interestingly, it was poorly received at its premiere in Paris, being labelled as not modern enough and 'Mendelssohnian'.

But I guess it just gave Sergei more reason to resent Igor!


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## hpowders

Am I the only poster on TC who prefers the Prokofiev Second Violin Concerto over his First?


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## Vaneyes

And, am I the only person who likes them equally?


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## MoonlightSonata

Am I the only one who hasn't heard them?


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## hpowders

^^^There's always one on every forum.


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## Avey

I was dancing in some dream recently. I dislike dancing. Moving in rhythm and tandem. Moving in accordance with others. I cannot recall much more, but on review, I cannot imagine it being pleasant.

Still, when I woke up, *Cinderella's Waltz* was floating through my hypnopompic mind. That is worth it.

Lovely stuff. Actually, scrach that. PERFECT stuff.

I feel like I am dancing that in my life, step-by-step, leading to *Midnight*. Profound and pertinent. Scary, really.


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## EdwardBast

EDaddy said:


> I've been listening to Prokofiev's Violin Concerto No. 1 with Maxim Vengerov, Mstislav Rostropovich and the LSO. I am struck by how modern-sounding the writing is... very progressive as far as violin concertos go, but not at the expense of architectural logic and flow. Vengerov's violin playing is both emotive and virtuosic, with spot-on support by the LSO and Rostropovich. I can strongly recommend this performance. Lots of fire here.


The performance of the Shostakovich A minor on the same disc is just as good.

I like both Prokofiev's violin concertos. The 2nd is the popular favorite by a good margin, in case that makes you feel better powders, but, of course, you know that.


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## CyrilWashbrook

I haven't been much of a fan of Prokofiev: there is a certain sense in which I am more impressed by the virtuosity of the performer than the music itself. But I went to a couple of concerts recently featuring the symphony-concerto (performed by Pieter Wispelwey) and the second piano concerto (Yuja Wang) and found them quite enjoyable. I gather from a quick browse of this thread that the latter at least is regarded as being at the more accessible end of the spectrum, which fits with my impressions of the work.


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## starthrower

^^^
I would love to hear the 2nd piano concerto performed live. It's an awesome work!


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## Guest

All five piano concertos are being performed in one evening at the Proms this Tuesday...Daniil Trifonov, Gergiev and the LSO. Alas, it's not being televised by the BBC, so it's unlikely to end up on Youtube.


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## Lord Lance

MacLeod said:


> All five piano concertos are being performed in one evening at the Proms this Tuesday...Daniil Trifonov, Gergiev and the LSO. Alas, it's not being televised by the BBC, so it's unlikely to end up on Youtube.


Gergiev isn't the best choice for Prokofiev's Major Five. Ashkenazy/Previn is good. Rattle for the few that he did. Reiner in Third. Argerich is good enough.


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## Albert7

Lord Lance said:


> Gergiev isn't the best choice for Prokofiev's Major Five. Ashkenazy/Previn is good. Rattle for the few that he did. Reiner in Third. Argerich is good enough.


WOw, floored by that statement.


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## Lord Lance

Albert7 said:


> *Wow, floored by that statement.*


Any particular reason?


----------



## Vaneyes

Some may wish to read of *Lina Prokofiev*. :tiphat:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/home/you...ve-dreams-success-losing-husband-liberty.html


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## brotagonist

Lord Lance said:


> Any particular reason?


I feel that when you make a statement such as that, you ought to back it up with impressions (others will have different impressions, of course) that support your claim. We've all got performers and performances that we cherish particularly strongly and we have our own equally valid reasons for holding them in high regard... and it sure can take the wind out of someone's sails when they are told by a 'voice of authority'  that the concert they're looking forward to or the album they just bought is substandard. Many people enjoy debating the merits of their favourites, but to make sweeping and unsupported statements doesn't, in my opinion, add anything to the knowledge base. No offence intended, just my ideas-and I don't speak for Albert7.


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## Heliogabo

Lord Lance said:


> Gergiev isn't the best choice for Prokofiev's Major Five. Ashkenazy/Previn is good. Rattle for the few that he did. Reiner in Third. Argerich is good enough.


I know only the Béroff/Masur and I'm very happy with it. It's a wonderful set (Emi/warner) coupled with a great rendition of Visions fugitives (complete)


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## Morimur

I don't get Prokofiev. He's certainly popular but I find his music to be very naive, superficial, and unsophisticated.


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## brotagonist

I've got that same album, Heliogabo, and it is a favourite. The Visions fugitives were new to me and they are treats.

That's your opinion, Morimur (or you just want to raise our ire?)  I could give you a list of works you might try, but I'm sure you've heard them.


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## leroy

I don't know about Gergiev but Daniil Trifonov is an excellent Pianist. I saw him this winter performing solo with a Bach Prelude and Fugue, Beethoven's piano sonata no 32 and Liszt's Transcendental Etudes, it was awesome + a Medtner Encore to boot.


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## pianississimo

MacLeod said:


> All five piano concertos are being performed in one evening at the Proms this Tuesday...Daniil Trifonov, Gergiev and the LSO. Alas, it's not being televised by the BBC, so it's unlikely to end up on Youtube.


They're on the radio though, and iplayer radio is now accessible all over the world - at least I know for sure it works in France, Russia and the USA. All the concerts will be online for a month after the first live broadcast.
I've a list a mile long for this weekend's listening.

Re Gergiev. I really like his interpretations of Prokofiev. He's a fan of drama, which is why he suits Prokofiev very well. Most especially the symphonies.

My favourite recording though is this one http://www.amazon.co.uk/Prokofiev-Complete-Symphonies-Sergey/dp/B001HY4TLE
Neeme Jarvi and the RSNO. Lovely rich and lyric playing.


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## EdwardBast

Morimur said:


> *I don't get Prokofiev.* He's certainly popular but I find his music to be very naive, superficial, and unsophisticated.


I would be inclined to agree. (What, all of it? The War Sonatas? The First Violin Sonata? The Second Symphony? The Sixth Symphony?)

Do you get the concept of a guest book? You have probably seen them at funeral homes, wedding receptions, and other affairs where the host might be unable to personally greet each guest. In case you _are_ unfamiliar with the concept: It is generally considered bad form to criticize ones host in a guest book (e.g., "I'm sorry for your loss, but wasn't Alfred a waste of flesh anyway?" "Great party, Phoebe, but I'm amazed you could have married such a schmuck."  )


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## Morimur

EdwardBast said:


> I would be inclined to agree. (What, all of it? The War Sonatas? The First Violin Sonata? The Second Symphony? The Sixth Symphony?)
> 
> Do you get the concept of a guest book? You have probably seen them at funeral homes, wedding receptions, and other affairs where the host might be unable to personally greet each guest. In case you _are_ unfamiliar with the concept: It is generally considered bad form to criticize ones host in a guest book (e.g., "I'm sorry for your loss, but wasn't Alfred a waste of flesh anyway?" "Great party, Phoebe, but I'm amazed you could have married such a schmuck."  )


I am re-listening to the 50th anniversary edition as we speak. I figured I should try him again.


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## brotagonist

I am particularly fond of Prokofiev's Second Symphony, which he, presumably after the pressure of bad reviews, conceded to be inferior, but I think it is a marvellous work. I think it must be his most dissonant symphony, too  The Sinfonia-concertante is a huge favourite, too. And his cello works are ravishing (I have the Polyansky/Ivashkin set on Chandos that I prize highly). As for his Piano Concertos, few seem to favour his Fifth, which is my favourite (so far/currently).


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## MaestroMallard

Shostakovich is by-far the better symphonist, but the Prokofiev Fifth Symphony is his best and most profound symphony representing the struggle of the Russian people during WWII and the Stalinist Soviet Realism.


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## violadude

Prokofiev is one of those composers whose music just seemed to flow from the pen like butter, even while being fairly discordant.


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## Avey

MaestroMallard said:


> Shostakovich is by-far the better symphonist...


Booooo, so much _boo_. What else can you provide for reasoning? I know this purely subjective, but I would like to at least know *why*.


----------



## Vaneyes

EdwardBast said:


> I would be inclined to agree. (What, all of it? The War Sonatas? The First Violin Sonata? The Second Symphony? The Sixth Symphony?)
> 
> Do you {Morimur}get the concept of a guest book? You have probably seen them at funeral homes, wedding receptions, and other affairs where the host might be unable to personally greet each guest. In case you _are_ unfamiliar with the concept: It is generally considered bad form to criticize ones host in a guest book (e.g., "I'm sorry for your loss, but wasn't Alfred a waste of flesh anyway?" "Great party, Phoebe, but I'm amazed you could have married such a schmuck."  )


Re Morimur's,"I don't get Prokofiev. He's certainly popular but I find his music to be very naive, superficial, and unsophisticated."

Although I don't agree with giving this composer such a broad stroke of dissing, I think it's fair when he says in so many words that he hasn't "cracked this nut", and gives reasons for.

This TC forum category and resulting thread are a far cry from a more serious and respectful funeral setting. Although a party setting, or even a funeral's reception may on occasion be appropriate venues for venting discord. Jus' sayin'. :tiphat:


----------



## Vaneyes

MaestroMallard said:


> *Shostakovich is by-far the better symphonist*, but the Prokofiev Fifth Symphony is his best and most profound symphony representing the struggle of the Russian people during WWII and the Stalinist Soviet Realism.


I do prefer Shostakovich symphonies, thinking they're usually more developed and interesting...even terrifying, with spliced sarcasm. But, I'll leave "better symphonist" to the musicologists to fight over. You may be one, I don't know. :tiphat:


----------



## tdc

I'm looking to pick up some recordings of Prokofiev piano music performed by Richter. Anyone have any recording recommendations?


----------



## DeepR

I love his Etudes Op. 2 !


----------



## DeepR

DeepR said:


> I love his Etudes Op. 2 !


No. 1 and No. 4 are just spectacular:




I love the aggressiveness of this version of No. 4:




And this guy does a beautiful No. 2 and No. 3 starting at 2:25:


----------



## tdc

The end of Prokofiev Symphony 2 (last 2 minutes or so) is so powerful! It reminds me of my younger days for some reason.

A feeling of beauty and wonder and time to spare (don't experience much of the latter anymore). *That last chord*! So haunting and powerful. Reminds me of the middle movement of Bartok PC 2.

Somehow that eerie last chord provides solace and closure, by acknowledging the dark and dangerous things that were there simultaneously in this naïve beautiful time? Like an accurate description by including what I was only aware of subconsciously? Another reality revealed in the twilight? The more I try to explain this the less sense it is making?


----------



## TxllxT

Today, April 23th. is the 125th birthday of Sergei Prokofiev.

http://rbth.com/arts/music/2016/04/23/sergei-prokofiev-the-composer-who-fled-the-ussr-for-the-us-and-back_587181


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## Lunasong

We've got three performance of the Alexander Nevsky soundtrack this weekend synced along with the film. Here's something I wrote after the first rehearsal on Wednesday (I'm in the chorus)

Orchestration: piccolo, 2 flutes, 2 oboes, English horn, 2 clarinets, bass clarinet, 2 bassoons, contrabassoon, 4 horns, 3 trumpets, 3 trombones, tuba, timpani, percussion (anvil, bass drum, bells, chimes, cymbals, gong, maracas, snare drum, steel plate, tambourine, tom-tom, triangle, woodblock, xylophone), harp, strings, chorus, and mezzo-soprano soloist.

Our percussion arsenal included a mounted I-beam and a suspended brake drum hit with hammers. The very low bells are being played on the organ.

The sax part is quite prominent, including a solo.

The original film (1938) was recorded with three tracks: dialogue, soundscape, and film music. Of the music, Andre Previn had said it is "*the greatest film score ever written trapped inside the worst soundtrack ever recorded*." The film music track is dropped, played by the orchestra. What I heard of the dialogue and sfx last night is very good sound quality.

The screen measures about 12x12 meters (40x40 feet) and is hung over the orchestra (actually directly over the horn section). Maybe about 4-5 meters off the ground? The chorus has sight lines to the conductor but, above orchestra seating, the audience will not see us. The conductor is working with a score and three monitors. I think the monitors are: film, click track, clock. The production includes offstage horns, conducted through an open door in the acoustic shell.

We are playing the PGM Productions version (1987) which is a reconstruction of the original score by William Brohm based on Prokofiev's derivative cantata, as the manuscript was locked behind the Iron Curtain and not released until 2003. *Because of this (and because the film recording is so bad) certain political intentions of Prokofiev are being interpolated, much like Shostakovich.* This is supposedly especially apparent in the final scene: Alexander Nevsky's entry into Pskov, which in the cantata is a triumphal allegory in praise of Stalin, but in the manuscript is scored with rather empty instrumentation (lack of upper and lower register instruments and spare mid-range) evoking a sober unsettling impression in the listener. In short: the aural information contradicts the visual information.

I am grateful to these two sources for information I included. (X) (X)


----------



## hpowders

I find Shostakovich Symphonies more interesting than Prokofiev's too.

I don't listen to Prokofiev for the symphonies.


----------



## Pugg

Lunasong said:


> We've got three performance of the Alexander Nevsky soundtrack this weekend synced along with the film. Here's something I wrote after the first rehearsal on Wednesday (I'm in the chorus)
> 
> Orchestration: piccolo, 2 flutes, 2 oboes, English horn, 2 clarinets, bass clarinet, 2 bassoons, contrabassoon, 4 horns, 3 trumpets, 3 trombones, tuba, timpani, percussion (anvil, bass drum, bells, chimes, cymbals, gong, maracas, snare drum, steel plate, tambourine, tom-tom, triangle, woodblock, xylophone), harp, strings, chorus, and mezzo-soprano soloist.
> 
> Our percussion arsenal included a mounted I-beam and a suspended brake drum hit with hammers. The very low bells are being played on the organ.
> 
> The sax part is quite prominent, including a solo.
> 
> The original film (1938) was recorded with three tracks: dialogue, soundscape, and film music. Of the music, Andre Previn had said it is "*the greatest film score ever written trapped inside the worst soundtrack ever recorded*." The film music track is dropped, played by the orchestra. What I heard of the dialogue and sfx last night is very good sound quality.
> 
> The screen measures about 12x12 meters (40x40 feet) and is hung over the orchestra (actually directly over the horn section). Maybe about 4-5 meters off the ground? The chorus has sight lines to the conductor but, above orchestra seating, the audience will not see us. The conductor is working with a score and three monitors. I think the monitors are: film, click track, clock. The production includes offstage horns, conducted through an open door in the acoustic shell.
> 
> We are playing the PGM Productions version (1987) which is a reconstruction of the original score by William Brohm based on Prokofiev's derivative cantata, as the manuscript was locked behind the Iron Curtain and not released until 2003. *Because of this (and because the film recording is so bad) certain political intentions of Prokofiev are being interpolated, much like Shostakovich.* This is supposedly especially apparent in the final scene: Alexander Nevsky's entry into Pskov, which in the cantata is a triumphal allegory in praise of Stalin, but in the manuscript is scored with rather empty instrumentation (lack of upper and lower register instruments and spare mid-range) evoking a sober unsettling impression in the listener. In short: the aural information contradicts the visual information.
> 
> I am grateful to these two sources for information I included. (X) (X)


Now that's what I like to see / hear.


----------



## TxllxT

*Complete Films that feature Prokofiev's Film Music*

Alexander Nevsky 1938 by Sergei Eisenstein (this Youtube version has better sound that the other one):






Ivan the Terrible 1944 (part 1) / 1958 (part 2) by Sergei Eisenstein











Lieutenant Kijé 1934 by Sergei Yutkevich (one of the first Soviet sound films):






Queen of Spades 1936 unrealised film, complete film music by Sergei Prokofiev:


----------



## hpowders

tdc said:


> I'm looking to pick up some recordings of Prokofiev piano music performed by Richter. Anyone have any recording recommendations?


Richter, The Carnegie Hall Concerts-Richter Rediscovered-Visions Fugitives and Sonata No. 6.


----------



## Judith

Interesting how the third movement of Classical Symphony (Gavotte) is incorporated into Romeo & Juliet!!


----------



## 20centrfuge

hpowders said:


> I find Shostakovich Symphonies more interesting than Prokofiev's too.
> 
> I don't listen to Prokofiev for the symphonies.


Personal preference I suppose, but to not listen to Prokofiev's Symphonies, to me, means that you haven't heard them or haven't heard good recordings.

I didn't much care for 5 til I heard Levine with Chicago. It is magic.

I would think that as a fan of Shostakovich, the music frustration poster child, that you might really like Prokofiev 6. It is all about frustration, angst, determination, and hope in the face of obstacle. Jarvi and the Royal Scottish NO do a fine job.

In short, you may prefer Shostakovich, which is fine, but to cast aside Prokofiev, IMO, is a bit of a tragedy!


----------



## Heck148

20centrfuge said:


> I didn't much care for 5 til I heard Levine with Chicago. It is magic.


yes, great recording....wonderful reading, great playing, excellent sound...it's my favorite, along with Reiner/CSO - live from 2/'58..live recording, sound isn't the greatest, but it certainly gives a good idea...must have been amazing in live concert.



> ....you might really like Prokofiev 6. It is all about frustration, angst, determination, and hope in the face of obstacle. Jarvi and the Royal Scottish NO do a fine job.


Prokofieff #6 is a great symphony....Jarvi/RSNO is good, well-recorded, but pales next to Mravinsky/LenPO [Praga label], and Ormandy/PhilaOrch...one of Eugene's best efforts..Phila sounds great.


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## 20centrfuge

I'll check those out. Thanks for the recommendations!


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## Huilunsoittaja




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## TxllxT

*Premiere of the earliest symphony by prokofiev 1902*

Unknown "child" Sergei Prokofiev Symphony. Unknown Sergei Prokofiev`s symphony.1902.















PREMIER CHILD Prokofiev's symphonies = PREMIERE OF THE EARLIEST SYMPHONY BY

PROKOFIEV


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## TxllxT

Sergei Prokofiev. Giant. Fragments of the opera.















giant 1






giant 2






giant 3






Sergey Prokofiev - "Maddalena" (opera in one act)















Sergei Prokofiev: The Gambler - Opera in four acts and six scenes (HD 1080p)




















The Love for Three Oranges



































Опера "Огненный Ангел" с субтитрами | "The Fiery Angel" | 18+


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## TxllxT

"Semen Kotko" Sergei Prokofiev. Live performance in Bolshoi




















Semen Kotko











Kirov Opera: Sergei Prokofiev - Betrothal in a Monastery / Обручение в монастыре, Op. 86 1998





























Sergei Prokofiev's opera "War and Peace"


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## TxllxT

Sergei Prokofiev opera "The Story of a Real Man"


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## TxllxT

*Symphonies*

S.Prokofiev Symphony № 1 D major "Classical", op. 25 Conductor Mikhail Mosenkov















Prokofiev - Symphony No. 1 Opus 25 "Classical" (Mariinsky Theatre Orchestra, Valery Gergiev)















S. Prokofiev | Symphony No. 1 (Tchaikovsky Symphony Orchestra, V.Fedoseyev)















Sergei Prokofiev : Symphony No. 1 "Classical" Members of the Orchestral Academy of the Czech Philharmonic, Ondřej Vrabec - conductor.
Martinů Hall, Prague, 2016






Prokofiev Symphony No. 1 in D major (Op. 25) - Valery Gergiev - Palmyra















Sergei Prokofiev. Symphony № 2, op. 40
Artists: Rostov Academic Symphony Orchestra 
Artistic Director and Principal Conductor - Valentin Uryupin


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## TxllxT

Prokofiev - Symphony No. 2 Opus 40 (Mariinsky Theatre Orchestra, Valery Gergiev)















Prokofiev - Symphony No. 3 Opus 44 (Mariinsky Theatre Orchestra, Valery Gergiev)















Prokofiev. N.3 Symphony in C Minor / Conductor - Anton Lubchenko















Prokofiev - Symphony No. 4 Opus 47 (Mariinsky Theatre Orchestra, Valery Gergiev)















S.Prokofiev - Symphony № 4. Symphony Orchestra Belgorod Philharmonic


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## TxllxT

Prokofiev Symphony No. 4















Prokofiev - Symphony No 5 - Gergiev















Prokofiev - Symphony No. 5 Opus 100 (Mariinsky Theatre Orchestra, Valery Gergiev)















Prokofiev: Symphony No. 5 in B flat major (Yannick Nézet-Séguin, Proms 2013)















Prokofiev - Symphony No. 6 Opus 111 (Mariinsky Theatre Orchestra, Valery Gergiev)


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## TxllxT

Sergey Prokofiev Symphony №6 E flat minor op 111















Prokofiev - Symphony No. 7 Opus 131 (Mariinsky Theatre Orchestra, Valery Gergiev)















Prokofiev: Symphony No. 7 / Gergiev · London Symphony Orchestra















Prokofiev. Symphony №7 Conductor Andris Apsite















Prokofiev Symphony N ° 7 / Munich Philharmonic & Valery Gergiev


----------



## TxllxT

*Prokofiev Piano Sonatas*

Paul Bulaenko. Prokofiev Sonata №1















РОМАН КОСЯКОВ Prokofiev Sonata №1















Prokofiev. Sonata 1. Performed Veprintsev Daria. Teacher Lobikova II















Prokofiev - Sonata №1 f-moll, performs Kamran Aliyev















Prokofiev: Piano Sonata No 2 - Sviatoslav Richter


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## TxllxT

Mikhail Pletnev plays Prokofiev Piano Sonata no. 2 - live 1982















S.Prokofiev Sonata № 2 D Minor, Op. 14 App. Yakov Katznelson















Sergei Prokofiev's Piano Sonata №2, or. 14, D minor















SS Prokofiev - Sonata № 2 Belyavskiy Sergey















Prokofiev. Sonata number 2. Elena Los.


----------



## TxllxT

Martha Argerich: Prokofiev's Piano Sonata No. 3 in A minor, Op. 28. Berlin - 1967 (Live)















Prokofiev - Sonata no. 3 in A minor, op. 28 - Daniil Trifonov















Gilels - Prokofiev Sonata no. 3 in A minor















Prokofiev Sonata Op.28 No. 3















Prokofev Sonata № 3 A minor, isp Stepan Nosorev


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## TxllxT

Sviatoslav Richter - Prokofiev - Piano Sonata No 4 in C minor, Op 29















Pavel Nersessian plays Prokofiev - Sonata No.4















S.S.Prokofev.Sonata №4















С.Прокофьев Соната No.4 Играет Сона Аршакян















Prokofiev. Sonata №4 Svetlana Karas


----------



## TxllxT

Anatoly Vedernikov plays Prokofiev Sonata no. 5















Prokofiev - Piano sonata n°5 - Grinberg















Prokofiev - Nikolai Petrov (1972) Piano Sonata No.5, Op.38 in C major















Prokofiev Sonata No. 5 in C Major, Op. 135















Prokofiev Op. 138 Sonata No. 5 in C Major


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## TxllxT

Sviatoslav Richter - Prokofiev - Piano Sonata No. 6 in A major, Op. 82















Prokofiev - Piano sonata n°6 - Richter Prague 1956






Prokofiev - Piano sonata n°6 - Richter Locarno 1966






Vladimir Ashkenazy plays Prokofiev Piano Sonata no. 6 - live 1962















Sergei Prokofiev Sonata No.6 Alexei Melnikov















Vladimir Krainev plays Prokofiev Piano Sonata no. 6 - video 1994















Sergei PROKOFIEV, Piano Sonata No. 6 in A major, Op. 82 (Alexander Gavrylyuk)


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## TxllxT

Прокофьев. Соната № 7. Полина Осетинская / Polina Osetinskaya















Nikolai Petrov plays Prokofiev Piano Sonata no. 7 - video 1982















Alexei Sultanov plays Prokofiev - Piano Sonata No.7 (live in Moscow, 1998)















Sviatoslav Richter - Prokofiev - Piano Sonata No. 7 in B flat major, Op. 83















Prokofiev / S. Richter, 1957: Piano Sonata No. 7 in B flat major, Op. 83 - Artia LP






Glenn Gould - Prokofieff, Piano Sonata No. 7 in B-flat min:









I Allegro inquieto. Andantino (OFFICIAL)




II Andante caloroso (OFFICIAL)




III Precipitato (OFFICIAL)


----------



## TxllxT

Prokofiev - Piano sonata n°8 - Richter 1961 London live















Prokofiev - Piano sonata n°8 - Richter Pécs 1974






Sviatoslavs Richter plays Prokofiev Piano Sonata No. 8






Evgeny Kissin - Prokofiev - Piano Sonata No 8 in B flat major, Op 84















Andrei Gavrilov plays Prokofiev sonata No 8 (1).mpg









I




II




III





Emil Gilels plays Prokofiev Piano Sonata No. 8















Boris Giltburg performs Prokofiev Sonata No. 8, Op. 84 (Queen Elizabeth Hall recital)


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## TxllxT

Prokofiev - Piano sonata n°9 - Richter Prague 1956






Прокофьев Соната №9









1 часть




2 часть




3 часть




4 часть





Vitaly Margulis plays Prokofiev's Sonata No. 9















P M 2007 Prokofiev piano sonata 9















Prokofiev - Nikolai Petrov (1972) - Piano Sonata No.9, Op.103 in C major






Sergey Prokofiev. Piano sonata № 9 (Alexey Sergunin)









(1,2,3 parts)




(4 part)





Prokofiev: Piano Sonata No. 9, Op. 103,









First Movement




Second Movement




Third movement




Fourth Movement


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## TxllxT

Prokofiev - Piano Sonata No. 10 in E minor, Op. 137 (fragment)















Barbara Nissman performing Prokofiev's 10th pno. sta. (1989)


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## hpowders

The only Prokofiev I listen to are the five piano concertos and violin concerto No. 2, the latter vastly superior to the first violin concerto.


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## 20centrfuge

hpowders said:


> The only Prokofiev I listen to are the five piano concertos and violin concerto No. 2, the latter vastly superior to the first violin concerto.


How could you not listen to the piano sonatas? Some of the greatest music ever written. And the symphonies!?


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## hpowders

20centrfuge said:


> How could you not listen to the piano sonatas? Some of the greatest music ever written. And the symphonies!?


I have the War Sonatas plus a few earlier ones. For me, it's simply not Prokofiev at his best. My mind keeps wandering whenever I play them. Could be a mental deficiency on my part.


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## TxllxT

hpowders said:


> I have the War Sonatas plus a few earlier ones. For me, it's simply not Prokofiev at his best. My mind keeps wandering whenever I play them. Could be a mental deficiency on my part.


Some people listen in order to get their mind into wandering...


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## EdwardBast

hpowders said:


> I have the War Sonatas plus a few earlier ones. For me, it's simply not Prokofiev at his best. My mind keeps wandering whenever I play them. Could be a mental deficiency on my part.


It is Prokofiev at his very best and in his most personal voice. Especially the 8th sonata. IMO, obviously.


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## hpowders

EdwardBast said:


> It is Prokofiev at his very best and in his most personal voice. Especially the 8th sonata. IMO, obviously.


Well that is your opiñion and you are certainly entitled to it and I would fight to the death for your right to express it, but it is not mine. For me Prokofiev is at his best in Romeo & Juliet; piano concertos 2 & 3, violin concerto no. 2 and perhaps, greatest of all, the sonata for violin and piano no. 1.

I will take a pass on the piano sonatas.


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## Blancrocher

hpowders said:


> Well that is your opiñion and you are certainly entitled to it and I would fight to the death for your right to express it, but it is not mine. For me Prokofiev is at his best in Romeo & Juliet; piano concertos 2 & 3, violin concerto no. 2 and perhaps, greatest of all, the sonata for violin and piano no. 1.
> 
> I will take a pass on the piano sonatas.


I'm curious about your opinion of Shostakovich's first violin sonata, given your appreciation of the Prokofiev.


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## hpowders

Blancrocher said:


> I'm curious about your opinion of Shostakovich's first violin sonata, given your appreciation of the Prokofiev.


I believe Shostakovich was influenced by the Prokofiev first sonata. Haven't heard the Shostakovich in ages. Have to re-aquaint myself with it!!


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## EdwardBast

hpowders said:


> Well that is your opiñion and you are certainly entitled to it and I would fight to the death for your right to express it, but it is not mine. For me Prokofiev is at his best in Romeo & Juliet; piano concertos 2 & 3, violin concerto no. 2 and perhaps, greatest of all, the sonata for violin and piano no. 1.
> 
> I will take a pass on the piano sonatas.


We definitely agree on the First Violin Sonata. Possibly my favorite work of Prokofiev - but a toss up with the 8th piano sonata.


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## Vaneyes

Good choices--Violin Sonata, Piano Sonata 8.

Favorite recs. :tiphat:


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## hpowders

EdwardBast said:


> We definitely agree on the First Violin Sonata. Possibly my favorite work of Prokofiev - but a toss up with the 8th piano sonata.


I love in the last movement andante assai section, the way the violin just floats over the piano, with a series of shimmering triplets. Makes me feel like I'm flying.

Actually the entire last movement is magnificent. I love Prokofiev's pizzicatos, here, and in the second violin concerto.

I'll re-listen to the Prokofiev 8th Piano Sonata...but first, the complete works of Mozart.


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## hpowders

I recently ordered a CD of Steven Staryk performing the Prokofiev Violin Concerto No. 1 and the 2 Violin/Piano Sonatas. Eager to hear his interpretation of the First Violin Sonata after David Oistrakh's great performance.


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## eugeneonagain

Cello Sonata Op.119 from this year's Hochrhein Festival. Played by Sol Gabetta (C) and Polina Leschenko (P).


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## cougarjuno

An early love of classical music for me came through Prokofiev's piano sonatas -- particularly No. 5. I found his chord progressions fascinating and needed to hear much more. Yes, 6, 7 and 8 are more popular, and more profound and are rightfully called masterpieces but I have a special liking for No. 5 and No. 4 as well. This cd of Murray McLachlan playing sonatas 1, 4, 5, 9 and the fragment of sonata 10 was the start my love of Prokofiev's music:


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## tdc

^Agree with you about the Prokofiev sonatas, I really enjoy all of the lesser played ones. Lately I've been enjoying 1-5 as much or more than the others. It depends on my mood.


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## TxllxT

We've got a friend in Moravia (CZ), who knows a lot about fighter pilots. Recently he wrote to us a whole essay on Alexey Maresyev. 
Wikipedia has: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexey_Maresyev

Prokofiev's last opera is about this 'real man'.


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## MusicSybarite

I guess many works of Prokofiev have been mentioned and discussed in here, but... have you ever heard _Zdravitsa (Hail to Stalin)_? I knew this work last year and my mind was blown away. Only paying attention to the music itself and far from supporting any political idea behind, I found this piece really lyric, intensely beaufitul and practically neglected (because of its political context I suppose). Something similar happens with the _Cantata for the 20th Anniversary of the October Revolution_: because of the Stalinist/Communist relation it is not as mentioned as other works overall. It's a blast of work! Well, it may be considered by many people as bombastic, empty, or other appellatives (I personally don't care whether it is bombastic or not). I can say it's another work that contains many beautiful passages of great intensity and emotion without keeping in mind the political ideas related to it. Attending a concert that included this work would be a real experience.


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## EdwardBast

tdc said:


> ^Agree with you about the Prokofiev sonatas, I really enjoy all of the lesser played ones. Lately I've been enjoying 1-5 as much or more than the others. It depends on my mood.


Yes, 2, 3, and 4 (at least) are wonderful! And that just proves that I haven't listened to 5 enough lately. I'll do that now.


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## tdc

EdwardBast said:


> Yes, 2, 3, and 4 (at least) are wonderful! And that just proves that I haven't listened to 5 enough lately. I'll do that now.


5 has a style of neo-classicism I really like. I would say at the moment 2, 5 and 8 are my favorites.


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## TxllxT

https://themoscowtimes.com/articles/see-and-hear-music-and-more-at-the-prokofiev-museum-61563

In Moscow the apartment museum of Sergei Prokofiev has opened its doors to the public.


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## sbadman

you haven't heard anything until you hear his 5th, played by Richter, Rowicki conducting (from the 60's).


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## MusicSybarite

This impressive rendition opened my ears to this incredible concerto. I had not appreciated its real potential before. The 3rd movement must be one of the Prokofiev's most inspired moments. Hahn makes playing this piece effortlessly. Her accuracy and fine technique is beyond words.


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## Tchaikov6

MusicSybarite said:


> This impressive rendition opened my ears to this incredible concerto. I had not appreciated its real potential before. The 3rd movement must be one of the Prokofiev's most inspired moments. Hahn makes playing this piece effortlessly. Her accuracy and fine technique is beyond words.


I just performed this concerto tonight, and yes, it is such a gem. I could never choose between the two violin concertos, they're both equally perfect in their own right.


----------



## 89Koechel

OH, Ms. Hahn is SO-fine, in Concerto #1!! This IS Prokofiev, at his most-lyrical, and (probably) most-inspired. Well, we do have a TRUE RIVAL to that long-valued recording from 1935 …… Szigeti (the master) with Sir Thomas Beecham (and/or a later Mercury recording, with Herbert Menges).


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## paulbest

Wonder how the great composers felt about the opening to Prokofiev's 3rd sym, back in the day.
CRUSHING, yet could any orch meet the challenges, the precise critical demands of the sym back in that day? I say no, what we are hearing today was not as bold, formidable , CRUSHING, as orch/conductors performed it back then, IF they even programmed it at all. 
Music far ahead of its time and today we get to savor it as it was meant to be heard. 
Had Ravel , Bartok, DSCH heard this sym live, say with a great Russian orch, under the young Kondrashin , no perhaps even more potent, the great Alexender Gauk , WOW, unreal. The 3 would have been a bit shaken.

Here it is the great powerful Prokofiev 3rd.


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## EdwardBast

paulbest said:


> Wonder how the great composers felt about the opening to Prokofiev's 3rd sym, back in the day.
> CRUSHING, yet could any orch meet the challenges, the precise critical demands of the sym back in that day? I say no, what we are hearing today was not as bold, formidable , CRUSHING, as orch/conductors performed it back then, IF they even programmed it at all.
> *Music far ahead of its time* and today we get to savor it as it was meant to be heard.
> Had Ravel , Bartok, DSCH heard this sym live, say with a great Russian orch, under the young Kondrashin , no perhaps even more potent, the great Alexender Gauk , WOW, unreal. The 3 would have been a bit shaken.


Or a decade or more behind the times. The music is from his opera "The Fiery Angel," which he wasn't managing to get produced or performed, so he made a symphony out of it later. If you want to know how it was meant to be performed , I would listen to:






The symphony is wonderful too, but if one has heard the opera it's hard not to hear the symphony as a kind of programmatic suite.


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## paulbest

I understand, but I am not willing to hack througha 2 hour opera, with parts that don't grab me.All the liner notes mention this, the Fiery Angel is the origin of the 3rd sym. But I adore the 3rd as a stand alone symphony. 
Like the unreal opening to the great 2nd sym, this opening of the 3rd is just unreal (unreal= timeless, not just ahead, but timeless = will not tarnish nor rust). 
How did the conservative Russian musical schools react to the 2,3 syms? 

Perhaps others in the thread have made similar comments.


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## paulbest

Prokofiev's 6th sym,, to me at least has many dull uniteresting sections. Gergiev does not make it any more exciting, whereas Mravinsky adds some nice flavors.

Like Prokofiev's 4th sym the 6th seems not to *one of his best*,,take that however you will


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## MusicSybarite

paulbest said:


> Prokofiev's 6th sym,, to me at least has many dull uniteresting sections. Gergiev does not make it any more exciting, whereas Mravinsky adds some nice flavors.
> 
> Like Prokofiev's 4th sym the 6th seems not to *one of his best*,,take that however you will


My thoughts exactly. The 4th Symphony is rather unappealling in its 2 versions. I haven't regarded the 6th as a very good one either, albeit it's better than the 4th. The symphonies I consider greatest are the 5th, 3rd and 2nd (in that order).


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## WildThing

I actually like the 4th better than the 3rd, with music which taken out of the context of the Fiery Angel sounds to me like a sequence of striking themes to a hollywood horror film, but the 4th feels more cohesive to me. In any case, I don't consider either one amongst his best symphonies, but I like like all 7.


----------



## paulbest

MusicSybarite said:


> My thoughts exactly. The 4th Symphony is rather unappealling in its 2 versions. I haven't regarded the 6th as a very good one either, albeit it's better than the 4th. The symphonies I consider greatest are the 5th, 3rd and 2nd (in that order).


Yes the 6th is acceptable, perhaps with Mravinsky's Lenningrad version, *a fine work*, Mravinsky is superior to rozh's USSR early 60's recordings. Mravinsky was a superior conductor vs Rozh/Kond.

On Prokofiev;'s syms, I can not decide which ranks highest, his great 2nd or his great 3rd. His 5th is also excellent. Its the opening to the 2nd,3rd that overwhelms me everytime. The 5th is not as impressive, though I think consensus has the 5th as his finest. I have about 4 (5?) recordings of the 5th. All exceptional recordings.


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## paulbest

Here is a nice live performance of prokofiev's 5th. The Frankfurt does a very fine concert here with Shokhakima at the podium. I do think the 5th is Prokofiev;'s finest now, Had to relisten to see where it stood in my rankings

Concert time folks


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## EdwardBast

paulbest said:


> I understand, but I am not willing to hack througha 2 hour opera, with parts that don't grab me.All the liner notes mention this, the Fiery Angel is the origin of the 3rd sym. But I adore the 3rd as a stand alone symphony.
> Like the unreal opening to the great 2nd sym, this opening of the 3rd is just unreal (unreal= timeless, not just ahead, but timeless = will not tarnish nor rust).
> *How did the conservative Russian musical schools react to the 2,3 syms?*
> 
> Perhaps others in the thread have made similar comments.


It wasn't an issue, since Prokofiev wasn't living in the USSR then, he was (mostly) in France, which is where he composed a lot of the really wild stuff. _The Fiery Angel_ wasn't staged while he was alive, the first performance being in Venice, 1955.


----------



## Aleksandr Rachkofiev

I've got no idea how the Russian calendar system worked in 1891, but I do know today is Prokofiev's 128th birthday using the Gregorian system.

He's probably in my top three favorite composers of all time, maybe my favorite - to celebrate, here's some of Bronfman's performances (which I think are quite good) as well as some of Prokofiev's more underrated works - his orchestral suites for ballets/operas




















(IV Dreams is especially brilliant)


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## flamencosketches

I am just getting into the music of Sergei Prokofiev, I think, bit by bit. I've known some of his music for a while now but nothing has made much of an impression until recently. I saw the fourth symphony in concert a few months ago and can't remember a single theme from it, etc. 

I have been listening to a box set recently of Sviatoslav Richter's DG recordings and there is some Prokofiev, including the 5th piano concerto. I found this work odd, but compelling. I'm now listening to the 8th piano sonata from the same box, and I'm blown away. This is absolutely phenomenal stuff. Prokofiev has officially earned my respect. Now I just need to make some sense out of his music. He has written so much, in so many genres, and in many styles. I think I will focus on his piano music for now as that is what has grabbed me so far. 

That being said, where would be a good place to start with his orchestral music? I have a disc of the 1st and 3rd symphonies with Riccardo Muti; I don't love it, but that may be Muti's fault more than Prokofiev's. Is Prokofiev one of your favorite symphonists of the century, or what? As I've said, I'm still coming to terms with his music. I suspect he may be one of the best of the neoclassical composers, if we can indeed call him that at all....

... so has anyone been listening to Prokofiev lately?


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## Mandryka

From the orchestral music I suggest the 6th symphony, Romeo and Juliette, the second piano concerto. And then the 7th symphony and Cinderella. And possibly War and Peace. 

The 8th piano sonata is often lumped into a triptych with the 7th and 6th, called the War Sonatas, maybe for no good reason. The 9th is a great favourite of mine, and I like very much Visions Fugitives. 

There, that should get you going.


----------



## Janspe

Prokofiev is one of my favourite composers, and I'm quite familiar with his music. Here are some of the works that I consider essential, but the list is _by no means_ exhaustive:

- The 5 piano concerti, but it's probably a good idea to start with the 2nd and the 3rd. The 5th is, in my opinion, the most difficult one to understand, especially without the backdrop of the earlier ones!
- The 2 violin concerti, the 1st of which is one of the most stunningly beautiful pieces ever written, with a totally characterisic Prokofievian pepper added as flavouring. Not to be missed!
- The _Symphony-Concerto_ for cello and orchestra is one of the true treasures of music history, it provides the listener with endless questions and fantastic material to mull over for a lifetime. It took me a very long time to start appreciating this piece, but now it's one of my favourite works in the cello concerto genre.
- The two chamber works I'm most familiar with, and love the most: the sonata for piano and violin and the sonata for piano and flute. The former is one of the darkest works of Prokofiev - don't approach it lightly! - and the latter an absolute charmer, full of juicy melodies and brilliant textures. I'd say the piano and violin sonata remains the Prokofiev work that has touched me the deepest.
- Of the symphonies, which all have something to offer, I'd recommend the 2nd and 5th as starters: the former is a frightfully bombastic piece that upon hearing made even Prokofiev himself doubt his ideas, but it's really an amazingly tightly crafter _tour-de-force_ in two movements. The latter is one of Prokofiev's most famous works, a brilliant work full of various moods and a great finale that leaves no one cold!
- The three war sonatas, already mentioned in earlier posts, are amazing works in every way. Make sure to explore them thoroughly! The rest of the piano sonatas deserve careful attention as well, but I'd definitely start with the war sonatas.
- The complete ballet _Romeo and Juliet_ is a masterpiece, I have no doubts about that. The whole thing is full of incredible music, but the final moments remain some of the most moving music ever in my opinion - I simply cannot listen to it without tears bursting into my eyes...
- I've grown very fond of Prokofiev's operas recently, but don't really know enough about them to recommend any in particular. I love _The Gambler_ and _The Fiery Angel_, but all of the ones I've heard have been worth the listen for sure.

Hope that list can give some ideas!


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## flamencosketches

Thanks for the knowledgeable answers, @Mandryka and @Janspe. I didn't realize how prolific Prokofiev was. 7 symphonies, 7 operas, 5 piano concerti, 9 piano sonatas, a good handful of ballets... it's an impressive resumé, and daunting for a new fan to consider. But I think I know where to begin now. 

Is Prokofiev the greatest Russian opera composer of all time, or what...? I'm not an opera guy, so I don't really know. Who is his competition?


----------



## Guest

I have a boxed set of his symphonies - Neeme Jarvi and the Royal National Scottish Orchestra - as well as three other versions of his 5th Symphony (Karajan, Oramo, Alsop) and and another of his 1st (Abbado). I think the 1st is a fantastic piece (his ode to Haydn). I also like the 4th, 5th and 6th.

I also have _Peter and the Wolf _along with some other pieces (Abbado, Chamber Orchestra of Europe). I became familiar with this version when it was televised in the early nineties, with Roy Hudd playing the part of Prokofiev, Sting narrating, and other characters played by puppets designed by the _Spitting Image _team. There's fun to be had if you watch the whole show in identifying the puppets of some other conductors and composers. Alas, part 3 of the English version on Youtube has disappeared, but there is a version with Spanish dubbing in 8 parts - here's Pt 1.






I also like his _Lieutenant Kije Suite _which, I only now discover, was written for a Russian film from 1934, _The Czar Wants To Sleep_. I knew it as the sleigh ride, used for Christmas TV programmes and ads as it conjures up images of winter snow.


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## Mandryka

flamencosketches said:


> Is Prokofiev the greatest Russian opera composer of all time, or what...?


I've only seen two as far as I remember, The Fiery Angel and War and Peace. The latter has memorable things in it, I found the former pretty boring.


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## millionrainbows

EdwardBast said:


> Having perused this entire thread, I find that some of Prokofiev's very best work has been neglected. The piano sonatas are, for me, the very center of his output. He was arguably the foremost composer of piano sonatas in the twentieth century. Sonatas 6, 7, and 8 are masterpieces, 4, 5, and 9 merely superb. Yefim Bronfman's recordings of the whole set are wonderful - on a par with his recordings of the complete concertos.
> 
> Another masterpiece neglected in this thread is his Violin Sonata no. 1 in F minor.


I agree, the Piano Sonatas are what I concentrated on first. I like the way Barbara Nissman plays it, with a Romantic flair. Also, Valery Gergiev is my preference on the symphonies.









I noticed that the later Pierian issue (above) is up to $49. Go ahead and get the single Newport Classics versions, in three discs. Nissman's liner notes are very good, and the Newport booklets have index/timing indications which tell "theme A, exposition" etc., and these are very helpful.















Prokofiev was the "Russian Liszt." No other 20th century composer contributed so much to the piano, and this includes Stravinsky and Bartok. The sonatas 1-4 owe a lot to late 19th century Romanticism, Brahms, and Schumann, especially Schumann in the Visions Fugitives, which could be called a 20th century Fantasiestücke. By the Fifth Sonata he really comes into his own modern style. There is always melody threading through, and motoric rhythmic patterns. He always uses the full range of the piano.
Prokofiev is sometimes characterized as emotionless, with "steel fingers, steel wrists, and steel biceps and triceps," but Nissman brings out a much-needed emotional side.


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## Chatellerault

I'm not a ballet expert but it was an amazing experience to watch Cinderella in Nureyev's ''Hollywood" set last winter. Some chinese and folk russian parts are actually quite funny and beautiully orchestrated. 

That being said, his symphonies often leave me cold. The only one I truly love is the fifth, especially the adagio. Celibidache/Munich, as one might expect, deliver a slow (14'56") and deep adagio, a first choice for me. I thought I'd like Mravinsky/Leningrad as much as I like their Tchaikovsky and Shostakovich but the adagio seems rushed to my ears (10'53").

For the piano sonatas, a good choice is English pianist Peter Donohoe. Prokofiev's piano is often ironic and non legato, but the greatest mistake would be playing it without emotion.


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## Janspe

I just noticed that Alexander Melnikov's survey of the piano sonatas on harmonia mundi has reached it's second volume! The first one - released a few years ago - included the 2nd, 7th and the 8th sonatas; the current release comprises the 4th, 7th and 9th sonatas.

I'm a big fan of Melnikov, he's a very intelligent pianist who approaches music in a very sensitive manner. His Shostakovich recordings (the 24 preludes and fugues, the two piano concerti, the violin sonata) are amazing and I'm happy that his Prokofiev cycle seems to be every bit as good. His view of these iconic works feels very fresh indeed.

The final volume, with the 1st, 3rd and 5th sonatas + the _Visions fugitives_ if I remember correctly, shall finish up the Prokofiev sonata cycle that might just become my reference recording. Maybe the three chamber sonatas next? Or the piano concerti?


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## Gallus

What's your favourite Prokofiev symphony 5 or 6 recording? One that would convert someone who did a listen through a while back and found their harmonic language very craggy and annoying...


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## Josquin13

Gallus said:


> What's your favourite Prokofiev symphony 5 or 6 recording? One that would convert someone who did a listen through a while back and found their harmonic language very craggy and annoying...


I've most liked the young Ukrainian conductor, Kyril Karabits' recent digital Prokofiev Symphony 1-7 cycle with the Bournemouth Symphony Orchestra, which is very consistent throughout--although there may be other cycles that offer more high profile orchestras. Nevertheless, the BSO plays well. I also prefer Karabits' conducting to that of Gergiev, Kitajenko, & N. Järvi.

What I've most liked about Karabits' approach to Prokofiev is that he brings out the lyricism in these symphonies throughout his cycle. Nor does he miss their darker moments, either. (Although you can probably find heavier, less comfortable and more 'late romantic' interpretations, if that's how you see Prokofiev's 5th, for example.) Yet, his performances can be powerful and energized, when they need to be. Karabit's recordings of the 5th & 6th Symphonies are no exception in regards to the lyricism that he finds in this music. Yet he can be menacing and raucous in the 6th, as well.

Karabits' 5th (& 4th): 



Karabits' 6th (& 4th--Op. 112): 




However, my favorite CD of the cycle is Karabits' 3rd and 7th, with the 7th being Prokofiev's most lyrical (and IMO, underrated) symphony. Karabits sees the 7th as a "very tragic" work, an expression of a "bitter sweet" lyricism. His 7th is the only recording I've heard that matches Nikolai Malko's classic 7th on EMI's "Classics for Pleasure" series, and with the improved digital sound, I'd be inclined to recommend Karabits' 7th over Malko's, which is really saying something (see my links below, to compare them).

As for the 3rd Symphony, Claudio Abbado is a match for Karabits in this symphony, among the late analogue/digital era conductors that I've heard--though I personally prefer Karabits. Riccardo Chailly also gets this symphony. All three are better than Gergiev, in my estimation--especially in the 1st movement, where they are more wildly imaginative and forceful, and particularly Karabits, who is, most appropriately, as fast as Rozhdestvensky at the opening).

If you don't mind mediocre Soviet era sound engineering, Gennady Rozhdestvensky's 1960s Prokofiev Symphony 1-7 cycle on Melodiya is arguably more idiomatic and 'authentic' sounding than all of the above recordings (though Rozhdestvensky isn't as lyrical in the 7th as Karabits & Malko). However, I'm not a huge fan of the old Russian sound myself--though it's serviceable and not terrible. Plus, I think that Karabits comes close to matching Rozhdestvensky in the 3rd & 6th. Nor can you buy Rozhdestvensky's 5th & 6th separately from the Melodiya set, as far as I know (?).

Karabits' 3 & 7: 



Malko's 7th (my former benchmark): 



Abbado's 3rd--first movement:



Chailly's 3rd--first movement: 



Rozhdestvensky's 3rd (my benchmark): 




Here are reviews of Karabits' recordings of Prokofiev's 4th (two versions), 5th & 6th Symphonies: 
http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2015/Aug/Prokofiev_sys45_4147.htm
http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2016/Jan/Prokofiev_sys46_4153.htm

& a review of Karabits' 3 & 7: http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2014/May14/Prokofiev_sys_4137.htm
& an alternative review of Karabits' 3 & 7: http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2014/Apr14/Prokofiev_sys_4137.htm

Plus, a review of Malko's 1st & 7th: http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2009/Mar09/Tchaikovsky_Prokofiev_382229.htm

Lastly, here's a review of Rozhdestvensky's Melodiya cycle:http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2014/Oct14/Prokofiev_sys_MELCD10011797.htm


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## starthrower

Thanks, Josquin. I'm going to give Karabits a listen. I currently have just one complete set by Kitajenko which I haven't listened to in quite a while.


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## flamencosketches

I have hardly any Prokofiev symphonies in my library. I'm thinking of getting the Ozawa/Berlin set just to have it and because I've enjoyed what little I've heard of maestro Ozawa's Prokofiev. Not sure what are considered the great Prokofiev cycles (maybe Rostropovich as well?)


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## starthrower

Walter Weller's cycle is fairly well regarded but I think for this composer there isn't any one highly lauded complete cycle. My Kitajenko set on Capriccio sounds good to me so I'm sticking with that for a full cycle in modern sound. I would like to pick up the cheap 10 disc set on Documents, Milestones Of A Legend. This is a super affordable way to get hold of a large amount of classic performances by top flight soloists and conductors. It gives you all of the concertos for piano, violin and cello, the 9 piano sonatas, and symphonies 1,4-7 conducted by Friscay, Szell, Ormandy, Mvarinsky, and Martinon. Other soloists include Richter and Rostropovich.
https://www.amazon.com/Milestones-L...+of+a+milestone&qid=1577143274&s=music&sr=1-2


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## Calipso

His two string quartets are amazing, one of the best in genre.


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