# Tchaikovsky's symphonies: ranking, recordings and stuff



## Aramis

I'm on Tchaikovsky kick recently so I'm starting a thread to provoke some discussion.

How do you rank his symphonies, what do you think about them in general, what recordings are your favourites?

I think that he suffers a lot from "nice" image of his music based on easy-listening ballet suites. But his after-3rd symphonies are much more modern and challenging that one would expect. They reach almost Mahler-like brutality of expression, yet always remain beautiful.

My ranking would look something like that:

1. 6th - a great, lenghty masterpiece of late romanticism with last movement being one of most stunning pieces of music of all times
2. 5th - just a little bit inferior to the 6th mainly because of it's final movement which some would call cheap and bombastic. The rest is incredible and everyone should hear the opening of slow movement with solo horn. 
3. 3rd - rather underrated piece with unusual structure, first movement has a lot of smart counterpoint, the two shorter movements reveal great sense of colouristics, especially the scherzo with magical trombone part. Then the stunning finale with energetic polonaise and unforgetable chorale. 
4. 4th - some weird ideas in this symphony, in first and last movements and of course in the scherzo with this pizzicato messing-around. The slow movement has something special about it and the ending, well, it's one of wildest codas in symphonic genre. CLASH CLASH BUM TRA TA TA TA DAM. 
5. 1st and 2nd. Simply very good symphonies with no great revelations.

So far my number one is:










Except for the 6th which is played way too fast. In this one I prefer Bernstein/NY.

The Karajan box also includes other works in first rate interpretation, especially the concertos and string serenade.

And now the stuff:


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## Polednice

My own ranking would be as follows:

_Manfred_
6th
4th
5th
3rd
2nd & 1st

People may know by now that I'm just as much a _Manfred_ fanatic as I am Brahms zealot, so it's no surprise I put it at the top, and my favourite recording is, of course, Petrenko with the Royal Liverpool Philharmonic.










The 6th is a very close second place for me. I still consider it one of the greatest symphonies ever written, and simply can't get enough of it. I put the 4th before the 5th mainly because I am utterly in love with its first movement - the sheer dramatism, and seemingly never-ending return of complete despair is precisely to my tastes! 

I don't yet have favourite recordings of most of the other symphonies, but for the 4th I think the best is probably Gennadi Rozhdestvensky and the LSO.


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## Huilunsoittaja

I've heard the Manfred Symphony, but I cannot recall it.

My favorite list: 
6
4
3 - I'm glad you like this one too, Aramis! I love the scherzo.
5
2
1

I cannot offer any recording suggestions, because I actually don't own a single symphony.  Radio has been good enough exposure, I've heard all 6 there.


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## Art Rock

Link to my blog entry on this.

Ranking:
6
manfred
5
4
2
3
1


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## emiellucifuge

On the list in my sig, the forum ranked the symphonies thus:

6
5
4
Manfred
3

The other two didnt place. Do you agree with this ranking. Why and why not?


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## Stasou

I'm not too familiar with Manfred so I'll leave it out. 
6
4
5
3
1
2 

I had trouble deciding whether to put 4 or 5 in the second place, but I went with this because I enjoy the entirety of No. 4, while there are parts of the 1st and 4th movements of No. 5 that I enjoy less than the inner movements. Of course No. 6 had to come first, almost entirely because of its last movement. I love how the loud, fast 3rd movement leads directly into the melancholic finale that just kind of fades out at the end. No. 3 came before the first two for reasons mentioned above, and No. 1 beat No. 2 simply because of the wonderful melodies in the 1st movement.

I have the Mehta+LAPO cycle, but it's not nearly Russian enough. I wish I had a very Russian set, and for this I'm considering Temirkanov and Rozhdestvensky. Any suggestions for the most Russian cycle?


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## Ukko

IMO Tchaikovsky was capable of great symphonic orchestration. Not particularly for application of small choirs, like Mahler or R. Strauss, whose music can sound 'gimmicky' if you haven't been paying attention, but rather for solo/duo parts contrasted with large/multiple choirs, that exude Romantic emotion. 

The finale of the 6th expresses defeat without surrender In the most powerful manner I have heard anywhere in music.

The 1st is an interesting, pleasant journey; it calms troubled spirits.

The pizzicato movement in the 4th annoys me greatly.


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## tdc

I think Tchaikovsky is a composer I still haven't really got yet. I've listened to his 5th and 6th symphonies a few times recently, and still haven't clicked with them. I think I am starting to see some of the brilliance in the 6th, but I'm listening to the last movement of it right now, and can't say I'm grasping THAT much out of it. There is some tasteful instrumentation and it does sound good, but I don't hear the super powerful musical statement others are professing this piece of music contains ...I've never really clicked with his violin concerto either. The only Tchaikovsky that instantly appeals to me is his 'easy' stuff - the Nutcracker Suite, Swan Lake etc. I also quite enjoy his Romeo and Juliet overture.


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## TxllxT

From this box the 4th Symphony.










From this box the 5th & 6th Symphony.










From this box 1st, 2nd & 3rd Symphony.










From this box the Manfred Symphony + the rest.

My ranking order: 4, 5, 6, 1, Manfred, 2, 3.


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## Aramis

These Haitink recordings were my introduction to his symphonies. The interpretations are very well but I dislike the sound quality.


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## TxllxT

Aramis said:


> These Haitink recordings were my introduction to his symphonies. The interpretations are very well but I dislike the sound quality.


I beg to differ: very well recorded 'analogue' (= warmer than digital) Concertgebouw acoustics with all instruments clear & in depth on their place. Mravinsky has splitted up first and second violins, so the stereo effect is strong, but the depth of the recording is a bit wanting...


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## Polednice

I'm actually in hospital at the moment - nothing too serious; they're just starving me of food for three days  - but to keep my mind of the discomfort, I've just been listening to Tchaikovsky's 6th, inspired by this thread. More than any other piece of music I know, this symphony transports my simultaneously to thoughts of me past, and thoughts of my future - nothing exciting, just the thought of actually _existing_ in the past and future - and it allows me to completely detach from the present moment. Wonderful.

Oh, and shame on all you fools who are not familiar with _Manfred_.


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## clavichorder

I strongly disagree with your ranking of the first symphony Aramis. The first symphony is perhaps the most inspired of them all to me, though it is not structurally as impressive as the later ones. The finale of the first gives me shivers and that's rare in music. I just have a special thing for the first, its much more substantial than the second(which is nice), and much more exciting than the third, and much more inspired than the fifth. The 4th and 6th are more impressive, but the first has a special place for me. The Manfred is just different.


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## Olias

Pappano's recording of #4, 5, and 6 is a very good recent recording. The first movement of the 6th is especially effective.


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## Vaneyes




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## clavichorder

I like the recordings done by Temirkanov, very reliable and crisp to the detail. http://www.cduniverse.com/search/xx/music/pid/6387186/a/Tchaikovsky:+The+6+Symphonies.htm


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## haydnfan

I like the Gatti recordings of symphonies 4-6. I also like Pletnev in the Manfred, and Bernstein in symphonies 1-3.


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## mmsbls

5
4
6
Manfred
3
(not familiar with 1 and 2)


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## Machiavel

Mravinski 4-5-6 with the LPO. IMO nothing come close to the quality of interpretation and performance. A real master conductor with a sound proper to him. He does not sound like the vast majority of other conductor and orchestra! A one of a kind!


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## Moscow-Mahler

I have *Mravinsky* set. I also have the Sixth with *Solti* and the Fifth with *Andre Previn* and Royal Philharmonic Orchetra.


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## elgar's ghost

6 (Ashkenazy)
4 (Ashkenazy)
Manfred (Pletnev)
5 (Ashkenazy)
No real preference between 2 (Slatkin) and 3 (Rilov) probably because I haven't heard them as often as the four above.

For my sins I've never heard the first one.

I'm perfectly happy with the recordings I have but I admit to having had my eyes on Mravinsky's DG stereo recording of 4-6 for some time.


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## Nix

6
4
1
5
(not familiar with 2 and 3) 

6 is the only one I enjoy throughout. I think 4 suffers from an insincere last movement, but the rest of it, particularly the 2nd movement is genius. 1 is underrated, though the second half isn't quite up to par as the first. And 5 I just don't like at all- it's like the last movement of 4 except spread out for 50 minutes. The only bit of it I can appreciate is the slow movement, which is well constructed, but still not nearly as gorgeous and sincere as his other slow movements.


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## violadude

Nix said:


> 6
> 4
> 1
> 5
> (not familiar with 2 and 3)
> 
> 6 is the only one I enjoy throughout. I think 4 suffers from an insincere last movement, but the rest of it, particularly the 2nd movement is genius. 1 is underrated, though the second half isn't quite up to par as the first. And 5 I just don't like at all- it's like the last movement of 4 except spread out for 50 minutes. The only bit of it I can appreciate is the slow movement, which is well constructed, but still not nearly as gorgeous and sincere as his other slow movements.


I'm glad someone else likes his first as much as I do! The second movement is absolutely gorgeous! Actually, your list is probably the exact same as my list, with 2 and 3 in that order at the end.


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## Nix

violadude said:


> I'm glad someone else likes his first as much as I do! The second movement is absolutely gorgeous! Actually, your list is probably the exact same as my list, with 2 and 3 in that order at the end.


Yes, both the first 2 movements are excellent. I never understand when scholars say this wasn't a mature work and doesn't sound like Tchaikovsky. The 2nd movement in particular reeks of him.


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## Laudemont

I don't believe anyone here has mentioned Tchaikovsky's 7th Symphony in Eb, as reconstructed by Semyon Bogatryev. It's a melodic work, enjoyable listening, if not up to the epic sweep of the 5th which is probably my personal favorite because of its structure (variants of the "fate" motif in the several movements). I used to own the Columbia LP of the 7th with Ormandy-Philadelphia but can't seem to locate it now, but I have the CD with Jarvi-London Philharmonic. As to the 6th, I'm not partial to it but the movement in 5/4 time is of interest.


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## Polednice

Laudemont said:


> the 5th which is probably my personal favorite because of its structure (variants of the "fate" motif in the several movements).


With regards to the 'fate motif' (which I've also seen referred to as "Tchaikovsky's meditation on Beethoven's 5th"), are you not referring to the 4th symphony?


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## Aramis

Probably not, the 5th's "fate motif" is much more noticeable and transparent in all of it's appearances (probably because it's memorable and short) than the one in 4th and for me too the 5th is more linked with it.


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## Polednice

Aramis said:


> Probably not, the 5th's "fate motif" is much more noticeable and transparent in all of it's appearances (probably because it's memorable and short) than the one in 4th and for me too the 5th is more linked with it.


Ah yes, you're right that it's more transparent and recognisable in each of its guises; I was probably side-tracked by the conjectured Beethoven link with the 4th


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## Curiosity

Finally getting into Tchaik's symphonies...






So powerful! One of my favourite symphonic finales.


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## Artemis

I would have thought that several of Tchaikovsky's symphonies are among the most easily accessible of all the more famous symphonies. 

I used to like Tchaikovsky a great deal when a lot younger. Tchaikovsky certainly knew how to pack lots of emotion into his works. I still return to his works occasionally but whenever I do so I rather tend to get that feeling that much of it is now a bit too slushy, sentimental, tear-jerking for my present tastes. On the other I can't think of any better composer for writing material in this fashion, if that's what you like. 

I happened to hear an excellent version of Tchaikovsky's Symphony No 5 at this year's Proms, by the Pittsbugh Symphony Orchestra conducted by Manfred Honeck. I thought it was one the best Prom performances I've heard this year, with especially good brass sections. I see that the whole of that Prom (together with Beethoven's PC No 4) is being repeated on BBC Radio 3 later today.


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## Il_Penseroso

My ranking : 

5 : Mravinsky is very good but the best I've heard is Silvestri conducting The Philharmonia Orchestra in 1954 (I have it on LP with Borodin Prince Igor Overture) 

6 : Kempe with Royal Concertgebouw Orchestra, 1951 (?) and Mravinsky with Leningrad Philharmonic Orchestra, 1956 

4 : Stokowski 

3 : Svetlanov 

2 : Svetlanov

I don't know the first and I've heard Manfred but ...


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## Jobe

Nobody seems to attack the Tchaikovksy symphonies much. Let's keep it that way. It's really difficult to slice these up in my favourites because each minute of each movement requires rating from me... Well, he likes to repeat a few things but, Y'KNOW.

5, - Thanks to Mravinsky 
6,
3,
Manfred,
4,
1, - Yes, phenomenal last movement
2,

Symphony 2 still contains some utterly wonderful music. It's a shame we couldn't change the thread title to "7 favourite symphonies of all time" so I could just put these at the top. Now I'm being silly...


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## Dimitri

Thanks for sharing--fascinating similarities.

This website shows a great example of Mozart stealing from Clementi: http://www.whosampled.com/sample/vi...onata in Bb Major No. 2: I. Allegro Con Brio/


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## realdealblues

I think right now my preferences are:

Symphony 1
Symphony 4
Symphony 5
Symphony 6
Manfred Symphony
Symphony 2
Symphony 3

As for as recordings. 1-3 I like this one from Markevitch.
View attachment 21341


4-6 and Manfred vary but overall. I like Muti with the Philharmonia.
View attachment 21342


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## Bix

6, 5, Manfred, 4, 3, 2, 1, easy


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## Skilmarilion

Until now, Tchaikovsky's symphonies as a whole are probably my favourite set of any composer's. There is so much wonderful music, melodic invention, colourful orchestration and emotional power. I would always rank the _Pathetique_ at the top. It is simply a masterpiece and its ending defies description.

I am not familiar with 2 and Manfred as much as the rest, so I'll only rank those ...

6
4
1
3
5*

* not that I don't love this, just a little less than the others.


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## Radames

Artemis said:


> I would have thought that several of Tchaikovsky's symphonies are among the most easily accessible of all the more famous symphonies.
> 
> I used to like Tchaikovsky a great deal when a lot younger. Tchaikovsky certainly knew how to pack lots of emotion into his works. I still return to his works occasionally but whenever I do so I rather tend to get that feeling that much of it is now a bit too slushy, sentimental, tear-jerking for my present tastes. On the other I can't think of any better composer for writing material in this fashion, if that's what you like.
> 
> I happened to hear an excellent version of Tchaikovsky's Symphony No 5 at this year's Proms, by the Pittsbugh Symphony Orchestra conducted by Manfred Honeck. I thought it was one the best Prom performances I've heard this year, with especially good brass sections. I see that the whole of that Prom (together with Beethoven's PC No 4) is being repeated on BBC Radio 3 later today.


That's where Pittsburgh went this year. I love those guys! They have been at Lanaudiere just north of Montreal a couple of times. They are great - a crowd favorite. I hope they come back.

As for Tchaikovsky - I do not count Manfred as it is really a large tone poem.

6
4
5
1
2
3

6 is maybe the best ever written by anyone. The finale is THAT good. So sad and yet beautiful.

4 is very awesome too with that powerful Brucknerian first movement. The contrast of that beautiful sinewy oboe solo that begins the second movement is so seductive. The pizzicato 3rd movement is pretty unique. The finale is an explosion of mania. The best musical expression of a manic episode I have ever heard. It really makes me think that Tchaikovsky may have been bipolar.

Best recordings of these? Muti's early Philharmonia recordings are very good - but I really like Mravinsky's 4th. Solti's 4th is my favorite though- better modern sound and still a very crazed finale. I have always loved the old Szell recording of the 5th despite that woodwind missed note in the finale. The only more modern recording that I like nearly as much is Maris Janson's. That recording almost never got released! For the 6th I still like the old Guilini recording best.


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## GraemeG

Artemis said:


> I used to like Tchaikovsky a great deal when a lot younger. Tchaikovsky certainly knew how to pack lots of emotion into his works. I still return to his works occasionally but whenever I do so I rather tend to get that feeling that much of it is now a bit too slushy, sentimental, tear-jerking for my present tastes. On the other I can't think of any better composer for writing material in this fashion, if that's what you like.


This is pretty much me. I always thought the 1st was better than it gets credit for. 2 & 3 are quite forgettable, and I seem to be in a minority which regards 4 as way more vulgar and crass than 5.
They're not works I ever seek out any more, although I don't mind listening if they're on...
GG


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## bigshot

It sounds like you're drying out and becoming a lot less fun. Thankfully, the music is still vivid and alive.


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## bigshot

I like a lot of recordings of the symphonies, but mostly I like Svetlanov, Markevitch, Stokowski, Dorati and Bernstein. Not necessarily in that order.


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## TrevBus

Art Rock said:


> Link to my blog entry on this.
> 
> Ranking:
> 6
> manfred
> 5
> 4
> 2
> 3
> 1


Yeah, what he's saying. Not a big fan but do like the 6th, 5th and Manfred. After that, not so much.


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## bigshot

The rest (and Manfred too) are just as good with the right conductor.


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## Guest

6th - Mravinsky, DG
4th - Mravinsky, DG
5th - Mravinsky, DG
Manfred - Petrenko, Naxos
1-3 - all about equally well. I haven't heard that many different recordings, so I am going with Mariss Jansons on Chandos.

For the 4th, 5th and 6th, I also like Gati on Harmonia Mundi. For the 6th, I also like Monteux, Jansons, Paavo Jarvi on Telarc.


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## Enformedepoire

6 - that powerful climax in the 1st mov't, gentle 2nd, that devastating finale!
5 - beautiful slow movement
Manfred - haven't heard it in ages but remember it was fantastic
4 - harrowing moments in first mov't, that explosive finale
3 - pretty decent
2 - really didn't like it
1 - haven't heard it
0 - oh wait, that's Bruckner


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde

1
5
2
4
Manfred
3
6



...............


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## david johnson

7 - ormandy/philly
6 - reiner/cso
5 - szell/Cleveland
4 - ormandy/philly
3 - no preference
2 - maazel/vpo
1 - Manfred-no preference


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## moody

1. "Winter Reveries". LSO/Markevitch.
2. "Little Russian". RPO/Beecham.
3. "Polish". LSO/Markevitch.
4. Cleveland/Szell. Vienna Phil./Furtwaengler. 1952.
5. New Philharmonia/Stokowski. NY Phil/Mitropoulos.
6. "Pathetique". NY Phil./Mitropoulos. LSO/Horrenstein.
"Manfred". NBC/ Toscanini. Live 1953.
No.7 is just a hotch-potch and doesn't count.


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## Tristan

My personal ranking of the symphonies would be:

4th
3rd
6th
5th
1st
2nd

It's not a strong preference for most of them, but the 4th is clearly the greatest. I prefer recordings by Pletnev and Abbado.


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## JMiller

Radames said:


> That's where Pittsburgh went this year. I love those guys! They have been at Lanaudiere just north of Montreal a couple of times. They are great - a crowd favorite. I hope they come back.


Imagine having them as your local orchestra. I count my lucky stars every day because of it.

As to the question at hand, any ranking I might produce is suspect because it changes day to day. However, for me and right now:

5
4
6
1

I'm not familiar enough with 2 or 3 to feel comfortable putting them anywhere, and 1 is only last on the list because I had nowhere else to put it due to the brilliance of the last three.


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## ShropshireMoose

I really don't want to rank the symphonies because depending upon my own mood I may prefer any one of them on a particular day. The same can be said for recordings, there are certainly a number of recordings I would not want to be without though:
1.LSO/Dorati
2.RPO/Beecham LSO/Dorati
3.LSO/Albert Coates 
4.Halle/Barbirolli
5.VPO/Gergiev Halle/Barbirolli
6.Philharmonia/Kletzki LSO/Dorati
Manfred RLPO/Petrenko

The Albert Coates recording of the 3rd is one of the wildest and most exciting records I have ever heard, I caught part of a broadcast of it years ago, and was knocked out by it. Subsequently, Biddulph issued a good transfer of it. Until that moment I'd always had a problem with the 3rd, but, no longer. I must also add that I think the finest "Manfred" I've ever heard was a broadcast by the CBSO/Sakari Oramo from the Proms a few years back. My favourite 5th in concert was the St.Petersburg Philharmonic/Temirkanov, a spellbinding performance at Symphony Hall, Birmingham in 1999. A real treasured memory was a concert at the Royal Festival Hall in 1983 when I was 18 and heard Antal Dorati with the RPO in the 6th- the first half was 3 Dvorak Slavonic Dances and the Tchaikovsky Violin Concerto played by Nathan Milstein. Wonderful!


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## Vaneyes

I haven't seen them mentioned yet--Santa Cecilia (Rome)/Pappano, Tchaikovsky Symphonies 4 - 6 (EMI, rec. 2006). This set disposes of the too-common syrupy, expansive interps. It also replaces usual recessed sound recording with immediacy and detail. Exceptional performances from all sections. 
Whether looking for new or supplemental, this is worth considering. :tiphat:


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## maestro267

I can't rank them. It'd be like choosing between my (imaginary) children. But I do think the first 3 deserve as much praise and prominence on concert programmes as the last four. They're filled with as much amazing music as the established works.


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## KenOC

From another place, another time...

1 - No. 4
2 - No. 6
3 - No. 5
4 - No. 2
5 - No. 3
6 - Manfred
7 - No. 1


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## JSL888

1. 6 for the slow finale
2. 5 for the Beethovenian journey
3. 1 and 2 for the youthful melodies
4. Manfred
5. 4 for being too bombastic (esp. the finale)
6. 3 just sucks, man


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## Merl

Currently 5,6,4,3,2,1 but check back in a few months and it will be different.

PS. Manfred bores me rigid


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## pianozach

I've never heard any Tchaikovsky I didn't like, but the Nutcracker has kind of worn out its welcome. It's just so _overplayed_.


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## Neo Romanza

I refuse to rank the Tchaikovsky symphonies, but I will say the 6th is my favorite symphony ever written and if I was only allowed to take one symphony to the desert island with me, this would be the one I'd take. It's had that kind of profound effect on me and I still have this feeling 15 years later.


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## Neo Romanza

pianozach said:


> I've never heard any Tchaikovsky I didn't like, but the Nutcracker has kind of worn out its welcome. It's just so _overplayed_.


Which is precisely why I never played it that much. When I do want to listen to it, it still sounds fresh to my ears. Lovely ballet. I might like _The Sleeping Beauty_ or _Swan Lake_ a bit more, but this isn't a slight against _The Nutcracker_ in any way.


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## haziz

All of his numbered symphonies ( 1 - 6 ) are great, and in my opinion at the same artistic level. I regard Nos. 1 - 3 as being as superb as his better known Nos. 4 - 6.

Manfred maybe a hair behind, but is also very good.


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