# Karajan 1960 Beethoven Cycle Vinyl BPO - mono or stereo



## highfell (10 mo ago)

Hi

I have done some research and it seems like this is a good set to buy. 

Quick question does it sound better in mono or vinyl?

Many thanks


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## EvaBaron (Jan 3, 2022)

This is absolutely a very good cycle to buy and I couldn’t say anything about the sound quality of different mediums because I listen via Spotify, but I would really recommend getting George Szell’s cycle with the Cleveland orchestra as well or instead of because it’s the best Beethoven cycle imo. If you are willing to, also get Wand’s cycle.


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## HenryPenfold (Apr 29, 2018)

highfell said:


> Hi
> 
> I have done some research and it seems like this is a good set to buy.
> 
> ...


It's a fabulous set - I have it on SACD and will vouch for stereo. I've never heard the vinyl though.


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

I'm a little puzzled by this as the only Karajan Beethoven cycles I know of are from the mid 1950s with the Philharmonia Orch. and 1963, 1977 & 1984, with the Berlin Philharmonic, i.e. none from 1960. Admittedly the 1963 was actually recorded between the end of 1961 & late '62


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## marlow (11 mo ago)

The 1962 BPO set is generally reckoned to be Karajan at his finest with the orchestra playing fresh with the discovery of the music afresh.


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## Brahmsian Colors (Sep 16, 2016)

Of the Beethoven sets I used to own, only two remain---Walter/Columbia and Karajan's from the '60s. I prefer interpretively the latter in its original stereo lp format. I believe its sound is also very fine.


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## highfell (10 mo ago)

Becca said:


> I'm a little puzzled by this as the only Karajan Beethoven cycles I know of are from the mid 1950s with the Philharmonia Orch. and 1963, 1977 & 1984, with the Berlin Philharmonic, i.e. none from 1960. Admittedly the 1963 was actually recorded between the end of 1961 & late '62


Sorry I meant the 1960s


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## AndorFoldes (Aug 25, 2012)

Why would you buy a mono version if a stereo version is available? Have I missed something here?


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## highfell (10 mo ago)

AndorFoldes said:


> Why would you buy a mono version if a stereo version is available? Have I missed something here?


For example, some Beatles recordings were originally recorded in mono and by all accounts sound more powerful/intense than their later stereo releases : this might be more relevant to vinyls.

The Karajan set is was originally released in both mono & stereo.


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## haziz (Sep 15, 2017)

Stereo .............


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## HenryPenfold (Apr 29, 2018)

highfell said:


> Sorry I meant the 1960s


I knew what you meant.


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## wkasimer (Jun 5, 2017)

highfell said:


> The Karajan set is was originally released in both mono & stereo.


That was true of many, if not most classical LP releases in the early days of stereo - because a lot of people didn't have the equipment needed to play stereo LP's.


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## marlow (11 mo ago)

wkasimer said:


> That was true of many, if not most classical LP releases in the early days of stereo - because a lot of people didn't have the equipment needed to play stereo LP's.


Exactly I didn't. In addition I certainly didn't have the money to pay for a set of Beethoven symphonies at the time which cost around a weeks wages!


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## progmatist (Apr 3, 2021)

wkasimer said:


> That was true of many, if not most classical LP releases in the early days of stereo - because a lot of people didn't have the equipment needed to play stereo LP's.


Specifically, mono cartridges at the time were incapable of playing stereo records. They "could" play stereo records, but not without damaging the record. Many people had mono only equipment because stereo equipment was prohibitively expensive. There was a thing called 4-track tapes, the mono version of 8-track tapes. There were also both mono and stereo open reel decks. 4-track and mono open reel tapes were completely unplayable by stereo machines, and vice versa. By the 70s, records had the disclaimer stereo records were playable by modern lightweight mono cartridges. When cassettes became a thing in the 70s, they were also playable on either mono or stereo equipment.

All that raises another problem. A mono record played with a stereo cartridge will have out of phase channels, degrading sound quality. As the stylus follows the groove in one direction, one magnet is being pull out of the coil while the other is being pushed in. When the stylus swings in the other direction, the pushing an pulling reverses itself. To truly enjoy a mono record requires a mono cartridge. They're available even as I write this. Alternatively, the balance control can be turned to the full right or left, so sound only comes out of one speaker.


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## highfell (10 mo ago)

Thanks all, it seems stereo is the way to go and certainly the safer bet


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## FrankinUsa (Aug 3, 2021)

EvaBaron said:


> This is absolutely a very good cycle to buy and I couldn't say anything about the sound quality of different mediums because I listen via Spotify, but I would really recommend getting George Szell's cycle with the Cleveland orchestra as well or instead of because it's the best Beethoven cycle imo. If you are willing to, also get Wand's cycle.


I second your recommendation.


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## SONNET CLV (May 31, 2014)

*Karajan 1960 Beethoven Cycle Vinyl BPO - mono or stereo*



highfell said:


> Hi
> 
> I have done some research and it seems like this is a good set to buy.
> 
> ...


I was a touch confused upon initially reading this post. It seems at first to ask about "mono or stereo" but then switches to asking about "mono or vinyl".

In any case, there is a past thread on this Forum that deals specifically with the four different Beethoven symphony cycles by Karajan. See: Which was the best Beethoven cycle by Karajan?

I personally prefer the 1963 cycle, though the '77 cycle is not bad at all. I avoid the 1985 cycle, but then I am not a big fan of Karajan, especially "late" Karajan. Some of the earlier recordings of his are splendid.

Stereo or mono proves an interesting issue. Especially on vinyl. The Beatles mono discs are wonderful. I have a set on CD and a set on vinyl. The vinyl is my preference. The Beatles stereo can be chancey, with too much separation, strong right and left channels with voices in one channel and instruments in another and big gaps in the middle. Sometimes one must hear a comparison between Stereo and Mono in order to make a valid preference pick.

There is a such thing as "electronically reprocessed stereo" which is derived from mono tapes. There is an early set of Beethoven symphonies by Karajan that appears on both mono and stereo vinyl, but the stereo is the reprocessed version. I'm not a big fan of that sound and definitely prefer the mono. Again, mono may be great sounding on well recorded discs played with quality equipment, even orchestral music. Many are surprised at the depth and spaciousness that well recorded mono can achieve. Some of us who play mono vinyl records utilize cartridges designed to play mono only.

I suspect most folks today will go with stereo orchestral music if they have a choice. A "stereo system" is equipped to deliver great "stereo" sound, which tends to have greater depth and spaciousness than mono, but there are exceptions. Chances are modern "stereo" is a safe bet. Avoid that reprocessed stuff.

As for a choice between vinyl or CD discs? Again, it depends. Well-recorded music on well-cared-for vinyl often outshines CD. I have a large collection of classical vinyl and tap into it regularly. Just today I listened to a symphony by Josef Tal (conducted by Zubin Mehta with the Israel Philharmonic) and the Symphony No. 1 by Carl Maria von Weber (with Neville Marriner and the St.Martin Academy), both on decades old black vinyl, both sounding pristine and clear on my rig.

You'll receive a lot of valid, informed advice from the posters here, I'm sure. But you probably can't go wrong with that Beethoven cycle you have your eye on. After all, most of us realize that one Beethoven cycle is not enough in order to properly experience the depth of Beethoven's symphonies. Some of us have several dozen complete symphony sets by Beethoven, and that _still_ isn't enough. If I got a good buy on a mono vinyl set in good condition, I'd likely jump at the opportunity to add the set to my collection, which already has a couple Karajan Beethoven cycles on both CD and vinyl.

All the best to you.


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## marlow (11 mo ago)

EvaBaron said:


> This is absolutely a very good cycle to buy and I couldn't say anything about the sound quality of different mediums because I listen via Spotify, but I would really recommend getting George Szell's cycle with the Cleveland orchestra as well or instead of because it's the best Beethoven cycle imo. If you are willing to, also get Wand's cycle.


To me Karajan's 1962 cycle was far better record it than Szell's.


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## EvaBaron (Jan 3, 2022)

marlow said:


> To me Karajan's 1962 cycle was far better record it than Szell's.


But I care more about the interpretation and I think Szell does that better and the sound quality of szell's cycle doesn't really bother me


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## highfell (10 mo ago)

SONNET CLV said:


> *Karajan 1960 Beethoven Cycle Vinyl BPO - mono or stereo*
> 
> I was a touch confused upon initially reading this post. It seems at first to ask about "mono or stereo" but then switches to asking about "mono or vinyl".
> 
> ...


So maybe some more context to my question, but first many thanks for taking the time to layout your helpful comments.

Having just got a Linn Sondek Lp12 turntable, and realising how beautifully, this turntable extracts music from records, I would like to buy some classic recordings on VINYL and I thought I would start with Beethoven.

You raise the critical issue , which is the 62 recording by Karajan based on reprocessed stereo or not, OR were you referring to his 1950s recordings ?


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## progmatist (Apr 3, 2021)

SONNET CLV said:


> *Karajan 1960 Beethoven Cycle Vinyl BPO - mono or stereo*
> 
> I was a touch confused upon initially reading this post. It seems at first to ask about "mono or stereo" but then switches to asking about "mono or vinyl".
> 
> ...


Another problem with early stereo records is they now had a pan knob, and by God they were going to use. Compounding the problem was they didn't have many tracks to begin with. They had 4, maybe 8 tracks. The entire drum kit typically occupied only a single track. Panning the drum kit meant panning the "entire" drum kit.

Re "electronically reprocessed stereo" records: to my ears they have a nasally, phase shifted sound.


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## SONNET CLV (May 31, 2014)

highfell said:


> So maybe some more context to my question, but first many thanks for taking the time to layout your helpful comments.
> 
> Having just got a Linn Sondek Lp12 turntable, and realising how beautifully, this turntable extracts music from records, I would like to buy some classic recordings on VINYL and I thought I would start with Beethoven.
> 
> You raise the critical issue , which is the 62 recording by Karajan based on reprocessed stereo or not, OR were you referring to his 1950s recordings ?


The Linn Sondek LP12 is a legendary table, known for its glorious sound. especially when set up just right and with a quality cartridge. This table shows you are serious about vinyl.

Beethoven on vinyl is an excellent place to start with LP listening. If you purchase new vinyl you can be fairly sure you're getting records which will play well -- glorious music, little to no background noise (skips, pops, scratches). I have at least a dozen LP sets of the Beethoven symphonies I purchased new back in the day and that are well cared for, virtually mint sounding; and I have a couple of other sets I picked up at yard sales or used stores that leave something to be desired, though I always do a visual inspection of such buys prior to purchasing, so I don't take home absolute "junk" records. So overall my vinyl Beethoven symphonies sound good on my VPI Scoutmaster II. I trust them with my Clearaudio Maestro Wood cartridge.

The symphonies can produce what is sometimes called "demonstration sound" with orchestral horns and timpani and soaring string melodies. But Beethoven's string quartets also sound great on vinyl -- again, on well-cared for discs. You'll be able to picture where the four musicians are sitting in front on you as they play, and you'll hear the creak of chairs and breathing and the snap of pizzicato strings and the draws of bows, and sometimes the turning of sheet music. It's all rather glorious.

There _is_ new vinyl out there, but it can get rather pricey. If you purchase used, do so with caution -- from trusted sources, or if you can inspect the disc prior to purchase. You don't want vinyl that will compromise your needle. Not if you've invested in a good quality, but delicate cartridge. And to get vinyl of much of Beethoven you will have to trust the "used" market. I have purchased vinyl from Discogs sellers and re-sellers on Amazon, both with good results, as well as from used record stores. I do pay attention to the descriptions of vinyl quality. And in the stores I inspect carefully.

As I write this, I'm listening to Beethoven's Fourth Symphony on an RCA Victor vinyl record from a box set of the Nine Beethoven Symphonies featuring Arturo Toscanini.









This box was released in 1958. (The Fourth Symphony was recorded in February 1951; it's mono.) I picked the box set up for $3.00 some years ago at a small used record store. I bought the set after visually inspecting the discs, which appeared pristine and well taken care of. Many looked unplayed! One of the things I've noticed over my years of searching for discs in used record shops is that the classical guys tend to take better care of their wax than do the rock-n-roll and jazz guys. So when purchasing classical vinyl you have a good chance of getting great sounding records. I would bet a lot of folks reading this would be surprised at the sound quality of the Fourth Symphony currently spinning on my turntable. Background noise is quite minimal (though actually more than I'm used to, but hardly annoying in any manner.) The mono sound is surprisingly full, and there remains a richness in the instrument sounds. The timpani just whacked out some pretty astounding notes a moment ago, surprising even me.

I have much better sounding vinyl featuring Beethoven, and I have Toscanini recordings, including this one, on CD, but there's something about the sound of the vinyl that will bring me back to this set time after time. Imagine, getting enjoyment from music recorded from an NBC radio broadcast in early 1951 and pressed to vinyl in 1958, and reveling in the sound in 2022! That's the magic of vinyl. And of Beethoven and Toscanini.

Note -- clean your records after purchasing and before playback. Especially those purchased used. There are many ways to do this, so find what fits for you, even if it is simply a record cleaning brush. Clean records pay big dividends. You'd realize that if you could hear this Toscanini disc playing.

Others here have offered you suggestions about good Beethoven cycles. If you are looking for them on vinyl, just be careful to pick up records that were well cared for -- clean and scratch free -- and you should be in good shape, especially with that Linn Sondek LP12 doing the honors of bringing the sound to glorious fruition.


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## SONNET CLV (May 31, 2014)

*... mono or stereo* vs.* CD or vinyl* ...

A quick follow-up to my prior post from yesterday ....

Generally when I switch over to my mono cartridge for mono record playback (which entails on my VPI Scoutmaster II a mere switching of armwands, as I maintain two, one with a stereo cartridge and one with a mono cartridge) I spend a few days re-sampling my mono records collection. Which I continued doing today.

I chose a Beatles mono record for this morning's listening session, playing through complete the Parlophone (PMC 1206) _With the Beatles_ vinyl disc from The Beatles in Mono remasterings/reissues on 180 g. vinyl released in September 2014. These 14 of some of my favorite music tracks left me stunned. This recording from 1963 has probably never sounded as good as it does on these mono wax sides.









Remembering my Discogs post from the day before, I took down off the shelf the white "Mono" CD Box Set, Compilation, Limited Edition of _The Beatles In Mono_ (Apple Records - 5099969945120) and took out _With the Beatles_, feeling rather let down by the 5 1/4 x 5 1/4 size of the CD sleeve in comparison to that large LP jacket. I popped the disc into my SONY XA5400ES and, without changing any other parameters (such as volume level) from what I had used for the LP, I set the album for track 13, "Not a Second Time", having been really impressed by the sound of the piano on the vinyl, and pressed the PLAY button. What came out of the Triangle speakers was glorious Beatles music -- but not quite as glorious, somehow, as the vinyl had sounded. I noted right away that the volume level was a tad lower and the instruments didn't have the individuation of tone that I caught from the vinyl. I listened for that piano line, noting the resonance of the key taps was slightly muted compared to the vinyl. Finally, to perhaps achieve some equity, I turned up the volume a notch or two (one needn't move the attenuator knob much on a JoLida tube amp) to match the volume exported from the vinyl record. Glorious sound, yes -- but still ... something was missing. Some last bit of "there-ness", whether it be the ambience of the recording studio or the depth of the soundstage. But I quickly found myself wanting to return to the vinyl.















I suspect most folks would find the sound of my rig playing Beatles mono CDs from the big white box a thrilling experience. But only until they heard the vinyl. Which is why I remain a believer in vinyl and its possible powers of persuasion to convince me I am hearing living musicians playing in front of me in my listening room.

The same goes with many a classical album on vinyl -- stereo or mono, though the stereo often has the advantage of improved production largely due to the time (more recently recorded) element. There's something about vinyl.

I could have spent time comparing the mono vinyl and CDs with the stereo versions on vinyl and CD. My Beatles collection allows for many such comparisons. But one thing remains certain: there are differences in sound from medium to medium, from recording to recording, for release to release. Eventually, if one samples enough of the various issues and formats, one will settle on a set that pleases the most. My set of Beatles mono reissues from the 2014 release remains my "go to" Beatles albums.









Final note -- I _used_ to lament that I never had opportunity to add the 1982 mono "Red Box" set of Beatles albums to my collection (I do have the earlier "Blue Box" stereo pressings), before that set had become a collector's treasure (and a buyer's nightmare!) ...









but with the quality of the 2014 releases, mono-mastered from the original studio tapes, which may soon deteriorate enough to never allow for another mastering from their source material, I am content. Besides, I understand the "Red Box" pressings are rather inferior in sound to the newer set.


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## highfell (10 mo ago)

Thanks @Sonnet CLV for your two enlightening posts. I started with vinyl in the late mid 70s with a Rega Planar 2 , & still have it. Went digital from the early 90s to last year, when I got the vinly again bug big time and bought loads of Lps - new, old and from Discogs (great place btw) Upgraded my turntable with another vintage one, and then bought a new Linn Sondek, which has the ability to extract so much more detail from the vinyl, reducing the unwanted noise level but with a wonderful musicality. Prog rock is my real love, but I do like classical music but i have very few vinyl records. With the LP 12 in situ now , I want to use that turntable so I can listen to the great classical recordings. 

My cartridge is not easily removable from my tonearm so I am stuck with a stereo one.

I feel like the stereo version of the 62 Beethoven set is the one to go for, as I don’t believe it is “reprocessed stereo” , although I am not 100% sure on that point.

Your RCA set is easily & cheaply obtainable if you are in the US but shipping and import duties make it a trifle expensive to get them into the UK.


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## DaveM (Jun 29, 2015)

Having a lot of experience with mono vs stereo vinyl, I have never found a good mono recording that outshines a good stereo recording. My first album of Beethoven symphonies was the Toscanini. Yes, iconic recordings, but RCA vinyl was unfortunately generally cheap crap.

Fwiw, just the other day, I took my Sony PS-X600 turntable out of storage, sitting on its side in a closet for at least 15 years, and set it up to play Elton John’s Yellow Brick Road, with a good amplifier and big speakers of old, for an 11 and 13 year old to listen to. Never having heard a vinyl system before, they exclaimed that the sound was better than they expected. 

Fwiw, I agree that to get the best mono vinyl sound, it is best to use a mono cartridge.


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## highfell (10 mo ago)

Update :

Picked up Arturo Toscinini set in excellent condition (mono) for £15 and then Karajan set NM (stereo) for £20 - all vinyl of course.

So i will have my mono versus stereo comparison just with different conductors. Thanks for your help. 

Will post my further thoughts once I have played the records


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## progmatist (Apr 3, 2021)

highfell said:


> My cartridge is not easily removable from my tonearm so I am stuck with a stereo one.


Do as I suggested in post #14 and turn the balance knob to the hard left or right. So only one channel is audible.


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## SONNET CLV (May 31, 2014)

highfell said:


> ...
> 
> My cartridge is not easily removable from my tonearm so I am stuck with a stereo one.
> 
> ...


My old SONY table from the '70s had the removeable headshell, and just by purchasing extra headshells (which were relatively cheap) one could outfit the turntable with a number of cartridges. All one had to do to change over was to snap off the one headshell and snap on the other. I wish my VPI had such a feature.

Instead, the Scoutmaster arm is a single unit with permanently attached headshell. One could remove the cartridge and replace it with another choice, but that is a bother. It was easier to find a good used arm and add the second cartridge to it. Now I simply replace the arm, which takes about as much time as the old SONY headshell switcheroo. Too bad the price for that second tonearm armwand was not like a second headshell! But there are used and "better buy" offers out there occasionally.

I use only moving magnet cartridges, but I'd like to go with a moving coil on a third arm. Maybe if the right offer arises? Still, those moving coils can be quite pricey. I'm already well extended with my two main MM cartridges and that mono cartridge.

There is a noticeable difference in the sound of a mono album played with a stereo cartridge and with a mono cartridge. Because the groove cut differs, the mono cartridge proves more appropriate.

Some rigs have a STEREO-MONO switch which may be utilized. Progmatist offers a solution which might work even better if you get a splitter for the line out, so that you filter either that right or left channel into a single line that runs to both speakers. How exactly to wire that depends upon your rig and connections, but the idea would be to have the single channel (left or right) go to both speakers rather than just to the left or the right speaker. You'll likely notice a wider sound stage that way, even though the sound, technically, is coming from the center space between the speakers.

Ah! Isn't this audiophile stuff fun?


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## highfell (10 mo ago)

progmatist said:


> Do as I suggested in post #14 and turn the balance knob to the hard left or right. So only one channel is audible.


I would never do this. I don't see the point.

I listen to mono recordings eg old bootlegs of rock bands in the same listening position as I do for Stereo, right in between the speakers.

Does your suggestion make the sound better ?


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## progmatist (Apr 3, 2021)

highfell said:


> I would never do this. I don't see the point.
> 
> I listen to mono recordings eg old bootlegs of rock bands in the same listening position as I do for Stereo, right in between the speakers.
> 
> Does your suggestion make the sound better ?


As I explained in post #14, playing a mono record with a stereo cartridge will result in out of phase channels. Due to the opposing movement of the two magnets. Or coils if your cartridge happens to be moving coil. At a minimum, that phase shift will color the sound, giving it more of a nasally tone. The sound can potentially cancel itself out, depending on the placement and relative angle of your speakers.


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## highfell (10 mo ago)

So a little update on the two sets that I purchased ie Arturo Toscinini set in excellent condition (mono) and the Karajan set NM (was in fact mono) both vinyl of course.

Both sets were a bit Crackly at times but not in an overpowering way. The sound & playing from both sets is excellent. I would say that the sound from the Karajan is better, fuller & more three dimensional than the AT set - which could be a reflection in the difference in when both sets were recorded.

Anyway , thanks for the input & advice


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