# Lost Vivaldi flute concerto discovered



## Fsharpmajor (Dec 14, 2008)

This was in the Guardian today:

*http://www.guardian.co.uk/music/2010/oct/07/vivaldi-flute-concerto-discovery-scotland*


----------



## Aramis (Mar 1, 2009)

That's great news for all those people that got tired with his 500 already known concertos. They will finally have some variety.


----------



## Fsharpmajor (Dec 14, 2008)

Aramis said:


> That's great news for all those people that got tired with his 500 already known concertos. They will finally have some variety.


*"This concerto referred to India, or the Mogul empire, and was written as part of quartet some scholars suggest was the geographical equivalent to Vivaldi's The Four Seasons. The other three pieces, La Francia, La Spagna and L'Inghilterro, remain lost."*

So there could be three more out there somewhere....


----------



## Il Seraglio (Sep 14, 2009)

Even though I strongly disagree that all of Vivaldi's concertos are the same. I must admit, this is more or less the equivalent to hearing about the discovery of a lost Telemann cantata.


----------



## HarpsichordConcerto (Jan 1, 2010)

Aramis said:


> That's great news for all those people that got tired with his 500 already known concertos. They will finally have some variety.


The reason why these folks wrote so many were because each performance was very often a unique one off performance. A concerto was often tailored for a particular one off performance for a particular soloist, or written for an employer/patron at such occasions. This week's concert will feature this new concerto and when next week comes, there will be another new concerto. This was their music making business back then. Church cantatas by J. S. Bach for example also had this function and he had to write cycles to fill up his church calender year.

Of course, it's very tempting to assess these from a post Romantic and modern viewpoint where composers no longer wrote music with such functions in mind. One or two violin concertos for a soloist (if there was one in mind who was not the composer) for a particular grand concert, and of course the materials were very different.

You are a music student, I'm surprised they don't teach these perspectives to you. (Music is a hobby of mine, my profession is something else). Three hundred years later, I hope posterity then will rediscover Aramis' works and have it performed, let alone recorded. :tiphat:


----------



## Head_case (Feb 5, 2010)

> Originally Posted by Aramis
> That's great news for all those people that got tired with his 500 already known concertos. They will finally have some variety.


Lol. Cheeky. And I rather like this one too.


----------



## Ravellian (Aug 17, 2009)

Well.. I could see how this could be news if (1) the discovered piece is very good in quality and (2) it's true that it's part of a 4-piece set. Then there might be an ongoing search for the remaining pieces. However, if either of the above two are not true, then yes, this is about as exciting as finding a lost Sammartini symphony.


----------



## Listener (Sep 20, 2010)

This is good news. And I'm not at all tired of Vivaldi's known concertos. More. More! Telemann and Sammartini would be cool too.


----------



## jurianbai (Nov 23, 2008)

I prefer the idea of Indiana Jones hunting lost score rather than a pathetic bone.


----------



## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

Just goes to show that (especially with older music), our record remains incomplete in many cases. There are many things out there locked away in private collections, unknown even to the current owners. It's great that scholars like this are doing work to unearth things like this - these are part of the world's cultural and artistic heritage...


----------



## Very Senior Member (Jul 16, 2009)

It's just the latest example of the fact that once a historical artist has established a strong reputation for quality then any previously undiscovered work by that artist will be virtually guaranteed a strong interest no matter how good it may be. Merely because it is a work by that artist gives it value, regardless of intrinsic quality. A couple of years ago there was a story going around about a newly discovered work by Mozart, which attracted similar attention even though it was a very minor piece. Similarly, if a work which was once thought to be by a famous artist is recognised to have been wrongly attributed to that artist then its value becomes decimated, with Mozart's Symphony No 37 being a prime example (a work by Michael Haydn).


----------



## Huilunsoittaja (Apr 6, 2010)

O boy! So good music hasn't run out yet, let alone for flute!


----------



## Argus (Oct 16, 2009)

HarpsichordConcerto said:


> You are a music student, I'm surprised they don't teach these perspectives to you. (Music is a hobby of mine, my profession is something else). Three hundred years later, I hope posterity then will rediscover Aramis' works and have it performed, let alone recorded. :tiphat:


Boulez was all about _perspective_. The Sex Pistols were all about _perspective_.

Plenty of musicians have opinions I disagree with, but what difference does that make as long as I enjoy the music. Even if I don't like their music what difference does it make (I'm not referring specifically to any of the above mentioned artists or Aramis here).

Music students learn to make music how, not how to apotheosise dead dudes.



> Of course, it's very tempting to assess these from a post Romantic and modern viewpoint where composers no longer wrote music with such functions in mind. One or two violin concertos for a soloist (if there was one in mind who was not the composer) for a particular grand concert, and of course the materials were very different.


Is that the same way you assess works by Stockhausen and Cage? You alter your viewpoint and expectations according to the period the work was written. Therefore, it would be misguided of me to accuse you of lacking perspective when judging their musical contributions. Thanks for clearing that up.:tiphat:



jurianbai said:


> I prefer the idea of Indiana Jones hunting lost score rather than a pathetic bone


Yeah. **** the missing link. Another sheet of paper with lines and dots on it is much more interesting to the general public.


----------



## Serge (Mar 25, 2010)

Oh well... yet another piece of classical music that I will probably never get to listen to. This just makes you so sad!


----------



## Aramis (Mar 1, 2009)

> The reason why these folks wrote so many were because each performance was very often a unique one off performance. A concerto was often tailored for a particular one off performance for a particular soloist, or written for an employer/patron at such occasions. This week's concert will feature this new concerto and when next week comes, there will be another new concerto. This was their music making business back then. Church cantatas by J. S. Bach for example also had this function and he had to write cycles to fill up his church calender year.


I know thing or two about it but it doesn't change my point, which is: why make sensation about this concerto if even people that enjoy baroque music didn't hear all of those that were known before? And even this couple of freaks that have all probably can't remember single theme from most of them. Some time ago there was big sensation around new discovered aria written by Mozart. When I hear about it on TV I felt like asking those excited people if they already know all Mozart's vocal music.


----------



## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

Aramis seems to be applying unnecessary strictures. but his general sense I agree with. Now, if the discovery had been a Vivaldi saxophone concerto, that would be interesting.


----------



## HarpsichordConcerto (Jan 1, 2010)

Aramis said:


> I know thing or two about it but it doesn't change my point, which is: *why make sensation about this concerto if even people that enjoy baroque music didn't hear all of those that were known before?* And even this couple of freaks that have all probably can't remember single theme from most of them. Some time ago there was big sensation around new discovered aria written by Mozart. When I hear about it on TV I felt like asking those excited people if they already know all Mozart's vocal music.


Yes, I agree wth that. That's how the damn media works. It lives off sensationalism, and if big enough, the greedy record companies will capitalise it. About ten years ago, scholars discovered a moderately significant early Handel church piece scored for soprano and strings, _Gloria in Excelsis Deo_. Because it was a piece that had a lovely opening aria, was long enough as a whole - 7 movements lasting 15 - 20 minutes, and was by Handel, the news spread all over in a tick. Then the most interesting part was major HIP groups signed up to have it performed and recorded all within *months* of the announcement.

- 15 March 2001 first private, modern performance of it
- June 2001, first recording by The English Baroque Soloists/John Eliot Gardiner, CD released in October 2001 
- Rest of 2001 many other recordings

Sensationalism and economics, even for 300 hundred year old works. A lot of it has to do with the work itself, if it sells records or not. I don't think the Vivaldi flute concerto will make such of a big deal ("they" discover lost concertos of his every now and then). But Handel, Mozart, etc. all these big names will not survive the prejudice of it. The way of the world ...


----------



## HarpsichordConcerto (Jan 1, 2010)

P.S. Yes, I'm guilty of it too. Why? Because I went out and bought the English Baroque Soloists/Gardiner CD in October 2001 when it was released!


----------



## jurianbai (Nov 23, 2008)

wikipedia:


> The Il Gran Mogul (The Grand Moghul) concerto is a concerto for flute by Vivaldi, written in the late 1720s or early 1730s. It was the Indian part of a set of four 'national' concertoes, La Francia (France), La Spagna (Spain) and L'Inghilterro (England) - the other three are all lost.
> 
> It appeared in a Dutch bookseller's sale catalogue of 1759 and was then lost until 2010, when it was rediscovered by Andrew Woolley in the papers of Lord Robert Kerr (?-1746), the son of William Kerr, 3rd Marquess of Lothian, now in the National Archives of Scotland . Kerr was a flautist himself and is thought to have collected it on a grand tour of Italy.


Probably more exciting than we think. Indian theme music of the 18th century? Scores:


----------



## jhar26 (Jul 6, 2008)

Hilltroll72 said:


> Aramis seems to be applying unnecessary strictures. but his general sense I agree with. Now, if the discovery had been a Vivaldi saxophone concerto, that would be interesting.


Just how interesting this is depends on how good this flute concerto is. But a REALLY important find would be the discovery of one of Monteverdi's lost operas or a Bach passion.


----------



## kg4fxg (May 24, 2009)

*Something New Always Exciting......*

I must admit I love Vivaldi! I often listen to this on the way to work in the morning, I need something with my coffee and 45 minute drive to wake me up. Many pieces of classical are beautiful, but at 5:30 AM without the right beat I might fall asleep while driving.

As I said the rhythm is a steady beat. Maybe what you call harmonic drive. It moves you forward at a certain pace.

Feel free to post what you would like with your coffee at 5:30AM.......Sleep?

Bill


----------

