# Palestrina



## Enjoying Life

I was enjoying listening to several of Palestrina's masses and it struck me that I had not seen any posts on him.

I am listening to the collection by the Tallis Scholars. They point out that he wrote 104 masses (the same number as Haydn's symphonies) but that very few have been recorded or studied.

While I do not listen to him every day, I do enjoy them occassionally and wondered if others shared the same interest and if they had any recommendations.


----------



## Romantic Geek

Palestrina masses not studied? That's a really false statement given that almost every modal/16th century counterpoint textbook models themselves after Palestrina's music.


----------



## Enjoying Life

They were referring I guess more to the order they were written in, the changes that took place over time and why - stuff like that.


----------



## hocket

As there seemed to be some interest in this aquisition I thought I'd do the decent thing and offer some comments. It arrived today and I've listened to about half of it. It's definitely amongst the best Palestrina recordings I own -though probably not a match for the outstanding version of the Missa Viri Galilaei by Herreweghe's Chapelle Royale. What I've listened to includes the 8 part Stabat itself which I guess is what people are interested in. I've listened to it twice and so I'll offer a comparison with the other two versions I own which are these:

















The Oxford Camerata go at it with their characteristic energy. I believe they use more than one voice per part. The homophonic passages have a ponderous solemn quality with pauses that is a bit churchy (by which I mean English churchy) which is perhaps unsurprising given that this is really a choir rather than an ensemble. The other two groups seem to flow through these sections a bit more and I wonder what a top class Italian group like De Labyrintho would sound like doing this. They're also able to really get the most out of the peaks in terms of drama, and the extra numbers no doubt help here.

Pro Cantione Antiqua as real pioneers in this field get a lot of respect. They certainly deserve it but I'm not always convinced by their approach as they tend to trundle along in one gear and sometimes don't really expose any 'architecture' to the polyphony so that everything sounds the same. This isn't one of those cases though, despite them clocking in at more than two minutes longer than the other two versions. There's quite a lot of reverb such that I sometimes struggled to be sure it was 1V/P but it helps make the recording the most atmospheric of the three. At the points where the polyphony really flowers their singing style enables them to produce by far the most intimate effect of the three versions that is genuinely moving.

This Cardinall's Musick disc is now out of print as the Gaudeamus label is no more. They are a good deal clearer than either of the other two with much more transparency such that this sounds much 'more' polyphonic than the other two. There are vocal lines that you might well miss in the other versions that you won't here. It's still a warm sound that you'd expect with this group and nothing like as crystalline as you'd get from someone like The Tallis Scholars. It's very well balanced and really you just feel that you get more of the piece from it. They don't fall far short of the camerata on power or Pro Cantione on passion and clearly win out on the technical side. Overall I'd say it's the best version.

These are all fine versions and can hold their heads up. I don't think anyone need rush out to get another version if they have one of these. Which one you want really depends on what qualities you value most but my recommendation would be to start with The Cardinall's Musick (if you can get it) as I think it ticks all the boxes and really exposes every aspect of the music whilst remaining vibrant and powerful.

Cheers


----------



## kg4fxg

I have really enjoyed albums such as Stile Antico & The Sixteen and Harry Christophers.


----------



## hocket

kg4fxg said:


> I have really enjoyed albums such as Stile Antico & The Sixteen and Harry Christophers.


Both much admired groups. I'm in two minds about Stile Antico myself. They're very atmospheric but I sometimes feel that they sacrifice form and pace for it (compare their version of Sheppard's Media Vita with The Tallis Scholars' for instance). There's no denying the atmosphere though -sometimes I think I can feel the draught in the church when I listen to them...

I recently got The Sixteen's new Palestrina album, which is excellent though very different in approach to The Cardinall's Musick. I'd say their style is more akin to the Oxford Camerata who I suppose The Sixteen are really a more upmarket version of.


----------



## kg4fxg

Hocket,

Thank you. I can't explain exactly why I stumbled on to Stile Antico or Harry Christophers and the Sixteen? I think there was an article in either Gramophone or BBC Music. I subscribe to three classical music magazines. Anyway, I just bought the essential Tallis Scholars and I was extremely impressed! 

Some other works I have enjoyed are the San Francisco Girls Chorus - Music from the Venetian Ospedali. I am sort of a Vivaldi fanatic, and would enjoy hearing what those girls sounded like in the Ospedale della Pietà at his time. Those poor virgin girls who were orphans. You would hear them sing and marry one and if they did not get married they became nuns.

Back to the subject, I don't know how I missed the Tallis Scholars before?


----------



## Manxfeeder

Hocket,

Thanks for the post. I tried to find the Cardinall's Musick on Spotify, but no luck. 

I've pulled out my copy of Bruno Turner's recording. For some reason, I haven't paid much attention to their Stabat Mater recording until now. Their set of Palestrina masses is hit and miss, as you indicated, but this one is lovely.


----------



## hocket

> I don't know how I missed the Tallis Scholars before?


They are, along with perhaps The Hilliard Ensemble, the 'market leaders' in this field. Both groups took up the baton from Pro Cantione Antiqua and transformed the way Renaissance music is regarded and really set the standard for all who followed them. Due to their eminence they tend to be either praised unreservedly or nakedly pilloried. I sometimes have issues with their approach and/or performances myself but I also have many recordings by them that you'd have to wrestle from my grasp. I think a lot of people make the mistake of underestimating Peter Philips. I tend to prefer tighter ensembles like The Hilliards (or better still The Orlando Consort) but The Tallis Scholars always feature some of the most famous voices and prior to her untimely death their signature sound for 25 odd years was that of the glorious Tessa Bonner which is hard to resist (yeah, that's her floating floating across Spem in Alium).

PS: Are you a fan of the other Italian violin wizards or is just Vivaldi?


----------



## Yardrax

Palestrina's 29 Motet settings of the Song of Songs are fantastic.






And a favourite Palestrina motet of mine:






Thought this thread deserved a bump since Josquin is currently up on the front page and I don't see much conversation about Palestrina 'round these parts.


----------



## Mahlerian

Yardrax said:


> Thought this thread deserved a bump since Josquin is currently up on the front page and I don't see much conversation about Palestrina 'round these parts.


There's not much discussion about any music before 1700, unfortunately for those of us wanting to learn more about it.


----------



## Yardrax

It is a shame. There doesn't seem to be much information on the internet in general about Palestrina. Most of the information I know I've gathered from documentaries on sacred and renaissance music. I did find this list on IMSLP which has all the collections of Palestrina's works with the dates on which they were published which I thought was pretty neat:

http://imslp.org/wiki/Opera_omnia_I...aenestini_(Palestrina,_Giovanni_Pierluigi_da)


----------



## Novelette

Yardrax said:


> It is a shame. There doesn't seem to be much information on the internet in general about Palestrina. Most of the information I know I've gathered from documentaries on sacred and renaissance music. I did find this list on IMSLP which has all the collections of Palestrina's works with the dates on which they were published which I thought was pretty neat:
> 
> http://imslp.org/wiki/Opera_omnia_I...aenestini_(Palestrina,_Giovanni_Pierluigi_da)


I have studied Palestrina's music in great depth. Although he is widely acclaimed the "purest" of composers, there seems to be very little interest in the bulk of his work. Having pored over the 33 volumes that you referenced [it was a major obsession for many months], it's unthinkable to me how much there remains of his that drifts only in the obscurity of an admittedly fine collection. Yet even that collection is incomplete! Many scores of works have been discovered in the 20th century, most especially by the great Palestrina scholar Knud Jeppesen.

Although his excellence was recognized in his own day, he was not the only great polyphonist around, and he hardly dominated the entire European sacred musical landscape [although it would be a grave falsehood to say that he had little influence!]. In the two centuries that followed him, his reputation was secure, yet his works [outside Rome itself] were not performed as frequently as one might think. Fux's great work, the "Gradus", was a very imperfect approximation of Palestrina's style, but the ideal of Palestrina remained.

While there are surely still many who think Palestrina the very perfection of the high polyphonic style, and understandably so, I consider Lassus and Victoria still more interesting.

Still, his "Lamentations of Jeremiah" is a towering monument of glory to the whole of the Roman School style!


----------



## Yardrax

Funny you mention Jeppesen, I have his textbook on modal counterpoint.

I think one of the things about Renaissance polyphony in general is that it's free and flowing musical phrases are a world away from the periodic phrase structures that have been etched into our collective musical consciousness since Haydn and Mozart. This might make it difficult for some listeners to immediately 'get' the music and go someway to explaining the relative lack of interest outside the worlds of academia and sacred music.


----------



## Novelette

Yardrax said:


> Funny you mention Jeppesen, I have his textbook on modal counterpoint.
> 
> I think one of the things about Renaissance polyphony in general is that it's free and flowing musical phrases are a world away from the periodic phrase structures that have been etched into our collective musical consciousness since Haydn and Mozart. This might make it difficult for some listeners to immediately 'get' the music and go someway to explaining the relative lack of interest outside the worlds of academia and sacred music.


His work is truly outstanding, and you're absolutely right about the substantial difference between the polyphonic music, initiated by modality rather than tonality, at least tonality as academics would regard it. Of course there exists harmonic function in this voice leading-oriented music but each line is circumscribed by that function, creating a vast and complicated nexus of co-existing functions varying with one another in refreshingly unexpected ways, yet very highly regulated and controlled.

I freely admit that this "novelty" was what kept me from exploring the rich domain of pre-Baroque music for years. Monteverdi is a fascinating composer, and not only because he is generally regarded as the most prominent figure in the transition from strictly contrapuntal to generally harmonically-oriented music. His polyphonic works are every bit as masterly as many of the greats that preceded him, and his harmonically-oriented works still have inspiration drawn somewhat from the polyphonic modes, though they are surely still closer to, say, Mozart than to Palestrina.

If you haven't already, you might also greatly enjoy the music of the Venetian School! The Gabrieli's are my favorite of the bunch. Every bit as different from the Roman School as the Netherlandish School(s).


----------



## Blake

It's surprising to see so little attention going to Palestrina. One of the greats, for sure. Gabrieli is another one I've been getting into lately. Love his brass.


----------



## Guest

Just downloaded and am listening to Missa Papae Marcelli from the Tallis Scholars (2007 edition). Very nice.

Hey, I gotta start somewhere!


----------



## Romantic Geek

Novelette said:


> I have studied Palestrina's music in great depth. Although he is widely acclaimed the "purest" of composers, there seems to be very little interest in the bulk of his work. Having pored over the 33 volumes that you referenced [it was a major obsession for many months], it's unthinkable to me how much there remains of his that drifts only in the obscurity of an admittedly fine collection. Yet even that collection is incomplete! Many scores of works have been discovered in the 20th century, most especially by the great Palestrina scholar Knud Jeppesen.
> 
> Although his excellence was recognized in his own day, he was not the only great polyphonist around, and he hardly dominated the entire European sacred musical landscape [although it would be a grave falsehood to say that he had little influence!]. In the two centuries that followed him, his reputation was secure, yet his works [outside Rome itself] were not performed as frequently as one might think. Fux's great work, the "Gradus", was a very imperfect approximation of Palestrina's style, but the ideal of Palestrina remained.
> 
> While there are surely still many who think Palestrina the very perfection of the high polyphonic style, and understandably so, I consider Lassus and Victoria still more interesting.
> 
> Still, his "Lamentations of Jeremiah" is a towering monument of glory to the whole of the Roman School style!


I don't think it's for lack of interest, rather that his body of work is SO LARGE and so diverse that it becomes hard to synthesize his music. It would be a lifetime of work or more at least.


----------



## hocket

Vesuvius said:


> It's surprising to see so little attention going to Palestrina. One of the greats, for sure.


I think part of the problem is that a lot of recordings of Palestrina give the impression that he's rather boring. 'Peaceful' and 'holy' tend to be the adjectives used, and people describe him being what they listen to in order to get to sleep. Ideal soporific! A couple of the records I mentioned above are a bit better (the Herreweghe for sure, the Cardinall's Musick effort is okay, as is the Hilliards' Canticum Canticorum and Magnificat do the same schtick and its not too bad). By far the best Palestrina recordings that I know of which will completely change the way most people imagine him are the three discs by Marco Longhini's Delitiae Musicae and the Madrigals from Concerto Italiano and Alessandrini. Here you get music that is vibrant, sensual and quite frankly thrilling. Highly recommended.


----------



## EdwardBast

Novelette said:


> While there are surely still many who think Palestrina the very perfection of the high polyphonic style, and understandably so, I consider Lassus and Victoria still more interesting.


Me too. My first course in modal counterpoint used Zarlino's _Istitutione harmoniche_ (1558?) as its text, which I think was more or less a codification of the style of Lassus.


----------



## Novelette

Romantic Geek said:


> I don't think it's for lack of interest, rather that his body of work is SO LARGE and so diverse that it becomes hard to synthesize his music. It would be a lifetime of work or more at least.


But what a life's project!!!


----------



## Chordalrock

Novelette said:


> I have studied Palestrina's music in great depth. Although he is widely acclaimed the "purest" of composers, there seems to be very little interest in the bulk of his work. Having pored over the 33 volumes that you referenced [it was a major obsession for many months], it's unthinkable to me how much there remains of his that drifts only in the obscurity of an admittedly fine collection. Yet even that collection is incomplete! Many scores of works have been discovered in the 20th century, most especially by the great Palestrina scholar Knud Jeppesen.


What would you consider Palestrina's outstanding masses?

Do you agree with Taruskin that his style became simpler around 1563 and more about textual clarity? What would be his most complex masses where he wasn't concerned with textual clarity?


----------



## Muse Wanderer

View attachment 71966


Tallis Scholars 'The Palestrina 400 Collection' CD 1 of 4

i) Plainchant - Benedicta es
ii) Josquin des Pret - Motet Benedicta es
iii) Palestrina - Missa Benedicta es - Kyrie
iv) Palestrina - Missa Benedicta es - Gloria
v) Palestrina - Missa Benedicta es - Credo
vi) Palestrina - Missa Benedicta es - Sanctus and Benedictus
vii) Palestrina - Missa Benedicta es - Agnus Dei 1 & 2

Feels like angels speaking to me.... same feeling felt as the first time I heard Allegri's Miserere

This time it is Tallis Scholars' 'The Palestrina 400 Collection' CD1 of 4.

The Plainchant starts off bringing the listener into a sacred mood and demanding attention to the golden pieces that will be presented next.

Josquin des Pret 'Motet Benedicta es' is 6min 55sec of glory to the heavens as never heard before. The starting fugue is sublime, the remarkable drop of dynamics happens with the upper registers being angelically voiced. The lower voices ultimately join in to a great finale at the 6min mark. This piece alone justifies getting hold of the whole collection!

Giovanni Pierluigi de Palestrina's 'Missa Benedicte es' starts off a soon as Josquin des Pret finishes off. 
And it works just as if it was meant to be!

Palestrina's Kyrie is more subdued initially and creeps softly in your subconscious with a far reaching polyphonic melody and harmony. The recording quality really shines in this section with all voices balanced perfectly. The last minute of the Kyrie is stronger, impactful and energised. All voice are saying 'Lord have mercy' in unison at the end. Perfect!

The Gloria starts off with the same energy as the Kyrie left off with a great fugue. The voices are more complex and the layering needs a bit of relistening to appreciate its structure. Palestrina can really astonish you with his mastery! The pauses are there when needed, each stage timed so that it does not take over the whole piece or fatigue the listener.

The Credo keeps the pace going from the Gloria with complex woven voices, again only appreciated with repeated listening. The soundstage of the recording shines through with my open backed headphones and everything feels just right. Fast sections are balanced by slower ones with fewer voices but great melody and harmony.

The Sanctus and Benedictus starts slow paving the way to the climax, the 'Osanna in Excelsis'. And the climax returns again at the end of this piece after another slow interlude...Welcome to Heaven indeed.

The Agnus Dei finishes this marvel of a Missa beautifully. All the voices start together singing softly to the 'Lamb of God' slowly stepping up towards the higher registers with a tearful heart-broken 'Miserere' that is as significant as Allegri's own.

The second section of the Agnus Dei is more jovial filled with eternal happiness in the vicinity of the eternal being this Missa is ultimately written to.

How could such a piece be written by a human?

Palestrina opens the doors to heaven to the dedicated listener who is patient enough to relisten and note all the intricate interlayering of the voices that together bring their ultimate metaphorical treasure...

The gates of heaven, the ultimate human endeavour towards enlightenment and eternal life.


----------



## Muse Wanderer

Re-listening again and feeling completely overwhelmed...

Plainchant
Josquin des Pres 'Motet Benedicta es' 
Palestrina 'Missa Benedicta es'


----------



## ArtMusic

I would recommend this recording


----------



## JSBach85

ArtMusic said:


> I would recommend this recording


I have been listening and reading about Palestrina since almost 6 years, attracted by his admirable reputation. It is a great luck that Palestrina left hundreds of compositions including masses, motets, magnificats, madrigals, etc... His Missa sine nomine seems to have been particularly attractive to Johann Sebastian Bach, who studied and performed it while he was writing his own masterpiece, the Mass in B Minor. His compositions are typified as very clear, with voice parts well-balanced and beautifully harmonized. Among the works counted as his masterpieces is the Missa Papae Marcelli (Pope Marcellus Mass), which according to legend was composed to persuade the Council of Trent that a draconian ban on polyphonic treatment of text in sacred music was unnecessary.

The mentioned recording above with Simon Preston / Choir of Westminster Abbey is my reference recording, and was my first contact with this masterpiece. I would like to get more recordings of Missa Papae Marcelli so I would accept further suggestions.


----------



## Josquin13

I too like the Preston recording of Palestrina's Missa Papae Marcelli. It's an exceptional CD.

If you're looking for a contrasting performance to the Preston's approach to Missa Papae Marcelli, you might consider sampling & reading up on two recent recordings of the mass by two continental groups: one German--Ensemble Officium, led by Wilfried Rombach (on the Christophorus label, hybrid SACD), and the other an Italian group, Odhecaton, led by Paolo Da Col (on the Arcana label). Both set the music in a liturgical context (unlike Preston, and Brown (see below)):

https://www.amazon.com/Missa-Papae-...coding=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=P7PGPXMQDCA61XFATSC4

https://www.amazon.com/Palestrina-M...coding=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=8TZT1BSBSGKCAK382TRF

https://www.amazon.com/Giovanni-Pie...coding=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=YA77PP9VNA21E10JJ2K7


__
https://soundcloud.com/odhecaton%2F04-palestrina-motet-victimae-paschali-laudes-a-8-voix

I don't know your tastes well enough to confidently steer you in the direction of one of these two recordings. I tend to recommend multiple recordings anyway (as I don't want to get blamed later...).

Personally, I've liked the British groups in Palestrina myself, surprisingly so, since I tend to prefer continental groups in general (except for the Orlando Consort, Cinquecento, The Clerk's Group, & the early Hilliard Ensemble). I don't always recommend the Tallis Scholars, but their first recording of Missa Papae Marcelli on their debut CD many decades ago is excellent. Like the Preston CD, the whole program is very attractive, and it remains one of my all-time favorite CDs from Peter Phillips (the CD is worth it for the Allegri Miserere and the rarely recorded William Mundy mass, alone, which are both remarkable works). Though I'd recommend avoiding the Tallis Scholar's 2nd recording of the Palestrina mass, which isn't as good, IMO:

https://www.amazon.com/Allegri-Mise...1-2&keywords=tallis+scholars+palestrina+mundy

https://www.amazon.com/Allegri-Mise...1-1&keywords=tallis+scholars+palestrina+mundy

In addition, there are two older 'classic' recordings by Pro Cantione Antiqua of London, led by Brno Turner, and the King's College Choir, Cambridge, led by David Willcocks. But, I actually prefer the more recent performance of this mass by Pro Cantione Antiqua, under Mark Brown. Though I retain a special affection for the older Pro Cantione Antiqua recordings, under Turner--which were my introduction to many remarkable early music works, nowadays I tend to find their performances a bit slow and stodgy at times--though certainly well sung. I don't feel that way about Brown's later performances with the group (though I wouldn't say that Brown's approach is radically different from Turner's, either, but his performances seem to flow better).

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00EHCBUB0/ref=nav_timeline_asin?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1

Hope that helps.


----------



## JSBach85

Josquin13 said:


> I too like the Preston recording of Palestrina's Missa Papae Marcelli. It's an exceptional CD.
> 
> If you're looking for a contrasting performance to the Preston's approach to Missa Papae Marcelli, you might consider sampling & reading up on two recent recordings of the mass by two continental groups: one German--Ensemble Officium, led by Wilfried Rombach (on the Christophorus label, hybrid SACD), and the other an Italian group, Odhecaton, led by Paolo Da Col (on the Arcana label). Both set the music in a liturgical context (unlike Preston, and Brown (see below)):
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/Missa-Papae-...coding=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=P7PGPXMQDCA61XFATSC4
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/Palestrina-M...coding=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=8TZT1BSBSGKCAK382TRF
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/Giovanni-Pie...coding=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=YA77PP9VNA21E10JJ2K7
> 
> 
> __
> https://soundcloud.com/odhecaton%2F04-palestrina-motet-victimae-paschali-laudes-a-8-voix
> 
> I don't know your tastes well enough to confidently steer you in the direction of one of these two recordings. I tend to recommend multiple recordings anyway (as I don't want to get blamed later...).
> 
> Personally, I've liked the British groups in Palestrina myself, surprisingly so, since I tend to prefer continental groups in general (except for the Orlando Consort, Cinquecento, The Clerk's Group, & the early Hilliard Ensemble). I don't always recommend the Tallis Scholars, but their first recording of Missa Papae Marcelli on their debut CD many decades ago is excellent. Like the Preston CD, the whole program is very attractive, and it remains one of my all-time favorite CDs from Peter Phillips (the CD is worth it for the Allegri Miserere and the rarely recorded William Mundy mass, alone, which are both remarkable works). Though I'd recommend avoiding the Tallis Scholar's 2nd recording of the Palestrina mass, which isn't as good, IMO:
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/Allegri-Mise...1-2&keywords=tallis+scholars+palestrina+mundy
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/Allegri-Mise...1-1&keywords=tallis+scholars+palestrina+mundy
> 
> In addition, there are two older 'classic' recordings by Pro Cantione Antiqua of London, led by Brno Turner, and the King's College Choir, Cambridge, led by David Willcocks. But, I actually prefer the more recent performance of this mass by Pro Cantione Antiqua, under Mark Brown. Though I retain a special affection for the older Pro Cantione Antiqua recordings, under Turner--which were my introduction to many remarkable early music works, nowadays I tend to find their performances a bit slow and stodgy at times--though certainly well sung. I don't feel that way about Brown's later performances with the group (though I wouldn't say that Brown's approach is radically different from Turner's, either, but his performances seem to flow better).
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00EHCBUB0/ref=nav_timeline_asin?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1
> 
> Hope that helps.


Thank you for your feedback. I also have two other recordings for Missa Papae Marcelli: Odhecaton and Tallis Scholars. I personally like Tallis Scholars for Palestrina masses. I have the idea that Tallis Scholars works well with certain polyphony: Palestrina and Tomas Luis de Victoria due to the nature of it: the presence of bigger choirs, the singing a cappella (at least in Sistine Chapel) and the upper voices, those are historical documented facts, and for that reason I like Tallis Scholars for Palestrina and Victoria and also in my country, Spain, people who deeply understand and studied how Polyphony was in 16th century share the same opinion. I know a guy who studied how Polyphony was in Seville and Toledo Cathedrals, where kids were very well trained to sing upper voices, unfortunately today we do not have such expertise with kid choirs to sing strictly Renaissance Polyphony (in Spain, they usually say "those kids are trained in nineteenth-century tradition"). Well, Victoria polyphony in Spain may be more difficult because of the inclusion of instruments, something that mostly today's performers lack of.

Back to Tallis Scholars, I do not like their performances for Franco-Flemish Polyphony and usually I prefer other performers for English Polyphony as well. However, for Palestrina they are among my favourite performers. The recording I have concerning Missa Papae Marcelli is the one including Allegri's Miserere, one of my favourite sacred compositions by the way:










Since you mentioned British groups for Palestrina, I have been looking for other recordings of Missa Papae Marcelli and attracted by the idea of a male/kids choir performance singing a cappella, I took a look at Westminster Cathedral Choir, David Hill (conductor):










https://www.hyperion-records.co.uk/dc.asp?dc=D_CDA66266

After listening all samples I have to say I am dissappointed with conducting, seems to be dull and lack of dynamics. I would prefer more inspired performances. I tried to find full parts on youtube or another place but I couldn't. I would appreciate if somebody has this recording to give an opinion.

Finally, I do not have and couldn't listened to Ensemble Officium, led by Wilfried Rombach recording, even samples, it's a bit risky to purchase without a reference.


----------



## Josquin13

"I would appreciate if somebody has this recording to give an opinion."

Personally, I don't normally enjoy listening to Renaissance polyphony sung by large, plodding, murky, homogenous choirs in hazy, overly reverberant church acoustics, especially when multiple boys--that is, more than two on a part--are placed on the treble line (& alto part). (Particularly when the polyphony is intricate, nimble, lithe, and complex.) How many boys does David Hill have singing the treble part? It sounds like a lot. 19? I agree, it's a bit boring. Although other people seem to like it, as I recall the recording received a Gramophone award or Penquin rosette (often an indication to me to avoid a recording). Besides, the Preston/Westminster recording is very good, so that's enough of that kind of British choral performance for me, personally.

In the Cappella Pratensis DVD documentary (that we previously spoke about) Stratton Bull argues convincingly against having more than two singers on a part, as normal church practice in the Renaissance. That is well supported by the lists at Cambrai Cathedral during the time of Guillaume Dufay, which show that there was never more than two singers on a part used in Dufay's masses. (The J.S. Bach, Buxtehude, Telemann choral tradition of one or two singers on a part in Lutheran Germany clearly comes out of this Renaissance tradition.) Certainly, Dufay had good reasons for limiting the number of singers in his masses: all of which I have no doubt I would have completely agreed with. Was it different in the Sistine Chapel in Rome during the Renaissance? Maybe, I don't know. I've not yet read Jesse Rodin's recent book, "Josquin's Rome":

https://www.amazon.com/Josquins-Rom...&sr=1-1-catcorr&keywords=sistine+chapel+jesse
https://www.amazon.com/Sistine-Chap...1518119036&sr=1-1&keywords=cut+circle+josquin

Plus, Palestrina's masses tend to be larger works, yes?-- 5 or 6 part masses?, so that would require 10 to 12 singers.

But I can't imagine why certain boy choristers were so highly prized and valued in the Renaissance, even famous, if they were merely singing the treble part with a bunch of other boys? Such exceptional, individual talent would have become largely obscured within a larger vocal mix, particularly in a big church. What's the great value in that? No, it makes more sense to me that certain exceptional boy singers were highly prized in the Renaissance because they were a rare commodity--specifically because they could actually skillfully sing the high treble parts, one or two on a line, as soloists, within a group of adult male singers. Besides, something remarkable and rarefied happens between the treble & alto lines when a soprano who sounds like a delicate boy treble sings with a male tenor. The polyphony becomes more interesting in a way that doesn't happen with an all male ensemble, no matter how good the counter-tenor is.

But, I forgot to mention two recordings of Missa Papae Marcelli yesterday. The first is a recent recording from the Sistine Chapel choir, on DG--which sounds like it's exactly what you are looking for:

https://www.amazon.com/Palestrina-M...4193&sr=1-1&keywords=palestrina+sistine+missa






And the following recording from New York Polyphony, which is a male ensemble in the same tradition as the Hilliard Ensemble or Orlando Consort. The singing sounds like it's more to my tastes:

https://www.amazon.com/Roma-æterna-...rd_wg=VaiGz&psc=1&refRID=VFDE29R3QVSZ9F53Y05J

I also forgot to provide a link to the Turner/Brown Pro Cantione Antiqua recordings, boxed at a discount by Brilliant classics:

https://www.amazon.com/Palestrina-M...=1518115535&sr=1-4&keywords=palestrina+masses

And, I forgot to mention that the Sixteen Choir & Harry Christophers have done an extensive Palestrina series in multiple volumes on the Coro label (up to 7 volumes or more?). I haven't heard any of their survey, but my guess is they're more interesting than the Westminster recordings.

My two cents.


----------



## JSBach85

Josquin13 said:


> Personally, I don't normally enjoy listening to Renaissance polyphony sung by large, plodding, murky, homogenous choirs in hazy, overly reverberant church acoustics, especially when multiple boys--that is, more than two on a part--are placed on the treble line (& alto part). (Particularly when the polyphony is intricate, nimble, lithe, and complex.) How many boys does David Hill have singing the treble part? It sounds like a lot. 19? I agree, it's a bit boring. Although other people seem to like it, as I recall the recording received a Gramophone award or Penquin rosette (often an indication to me to avoid a recording).


And that is the reason I am having difficulties to find good Palestrina recordings. After searching over and over, there are very few recordings I am happy with. We need good Palestrina performers.

Recently I discovered a performance by Diego Fasolis / Coro della Radio Svizzera on youtube concerning Palestrina masses. I was impressed particularly by the Parody mass "Missa O regem coeli", one of the most beautiful masses I have ever heard.






A parody mass is a musical setting of the mass, typically from the 16th century, that uses multiple voices of another pre-existing piece of music, such as a fragment of a motet or a secular chanson, as part of its melodic material. The parody mass was a very popular model during the Renaissance: Palestrina alone wrote some 50-odd examples, and by the first half of the 16th century this style was the dominant form. The Council of Trent, in a document dated 10 September 1562, banned the use of secular material, "...let nothing profane be intermingled ... banish from church all music which contains, whether in the singing or the organ playing, things that are lascivious or impure".

I am really fascinated by this period of history and also one of my favourite hobbies is to read about the History of Western Christian Church. At this moment I do not have enough time but surely I will read further about Council of Trent since I have a great interest in it.

Regarding Palestrina masses performed by Diego Fasolis / Coro della Radio Svizzera there is another video on youtube comprising the following masses:

MISSA Ecce Sacerdos magnus
MISSA O Regem cœli
MISSA Virtute magna
MISSA Gabriel Archangelus
MISSA Ad cœnam Agni providi






Those performances are the closer I listened to Palestrina perfection: emotive, expressive, good pronunciation, great dynamics, well balanced choir.


----------



## San Antone

hocket said:


> Pro Cantione Antiqua as real pioneers in this field get a lot of respect. They certainly deserve it but I'm not always convinced by their approach as they tend to trundle along in one gear and sometimes don't really expose any 'architecture' to the polyphony so that everything sounds the same. This isn't one of those cases though, despite them clocking in at more than two minutes longer than the other two versions. There's quite a lot of reverb such that I sometimes struggled to be sure it was 1V/P but it helps make the recording the most atmospheric of the three. At the points where the polyphony really flowers their singing style enables them to produce by far the most intimate effect of the three versions that is genuinely moving.


Agree that the Pro Cantione Antiqua is excellent with Palestrina. I also like Sergio Vartolo and Longhini. Vartolo's three sets of recordings of all nine Mantovane masses on Biogiovanni are wonderful. You might be put off initially because of the organ, alternatim, but that was a condition of the original commission. I am not 100% sure if these recordings are the same that have been re-issued by Naxos. But, they may be. I don't know since I have the originals and have never investigated the Naxos CDs.

Generally I prefer small-ish groups with Palestrina, no more than 12 singers, all male.

If you have not done so, you must look up *J.F. Weber* who used to review early music for Fanfare but retired a couple of years ago. He has done a comprehensive discography of Palestrina masses. Of the 104, upwards of 80 have been recorded, and I am someone who looks forward with great anticipation for any new recording of a mass that has until now been unrecorded.


----------



## JSBach85

Which recordings would you consider "essential" for a good Palestrina collector?


----------



## San Antone

JSBach85 said:


> Which recordings would you consider "essential" for a good Palestrina collector?


I wouldn't attempt to say, especially for someone else;, I really think "essential" is very subjective and some people have an aversion to the British sound and prefer Italian groups, and then there are those who feel the opposite. I like both and there are so many recordings, but I will mention a few of what I consider good box sets (but you should really look up the reviews on Fanfare from *J.F. Weber*. He is the real expert on Palestrina recordings).

Most of the *Pro Cantione Antigua* recordings of masses and the Lamentations have been collected in a 5CD box from Brilliant, and there is a decent twofer of masses and motets by *Philip Ledger* and *David Willcocks* on Warner Classics. A particular favorite of mine are the complete liturgical versions by a small amateur choir the *Schola Cantorum of the Saint Gregory Society*, released under their own label and available to purchase from their website. A 4CD box by *Michel Laplenie, Ensemble Vocal Sagittarius* of masses and motets has some masses that are otherwise hard to find. The Officium Tenebrarum has been done by *Cori Spezzati* and it is good to have such a complete set of these works, which have some of Palestrina's best writing.

Harry Christophers has recorded a lot of Palestrina, but I don't consider his recordings the best since he uses a rather large mixed group for this music and it is done in a very secular style. Don't get me wrong, he does a good job with this music, as well as Victoria, but there are recordings I prefer over his.

There is a good collection of his madrigals by *Consort Ars Musica*, and it may be the only complete set.

I'd say you can't go wrong with any of the many recordings on Hyperion by the *Westminster Cathedral Choir* and especially the *Tallis Scholars*, as well as those other directors I mentioned in my earlier post: Vartolo and Longhini.


----------

