# TC Lists



## Trout

I'll start a new thread on the matter. So far we have compiled 50 string "ensembles", 100 operas, 100 keyboard concerti, and 150 symphonies. All three lists are excellent, but the question is what should we do next? Some ideas I had in mind:
-Chamber; a large genre, but a list that I think everyone is able to contribute to.
-Sonatas; a smaller category than chamber and might have less participation
-Tone Poems; difficult to define, but manageable
-Concerti (for all instruments); also a large genre of music, but there are just so many masterpieces for wind concerti that deserve to be mentioned (this can be with or without the keyboard concerti that has already been listed)
-Choral; pretty straightforward and probably my first choice of the five

Your thoughts? Should we keep going with these lists or just stop while we still have our sanity?


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## Polednice

I think we should compile a list of the best TC lists!

I'm not actually a fan of the listing, but obviously don't mind that it takes place, whether people view the voting as a game, or the end results as a serious endeavour. I'd be interested in watching a thread on tone poems without participating, but only in search of new ones that I haven't listened to...


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## Ravellian

I wouldn't mind a top 150 keyboard works list (which I could contribute a lot to) or a top 100 chamber works list (which I could learn a lot from).


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## Weston

Chamber, keyboard, or tone poem, I'm game for any and all. I don't know much about choral except for some baroque. I wonder if the moderators could find a way to keep it down to one or two lists at a time though. They are very time consuming if you want to participate in earnest.


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## mmsbls

There was a thread on the best violin concertos. In that thread several people said they would be interested in a string concerto list. There was some question about what strings should be included (violin, viola, cello, etc.). I would definitely like to do a string concerto list.


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## Trout

Weston said:


> Chamber, keyboard, or tone poem, I'm game for any and all. I don't know much about choral except for some baroque. I wonder if the moderators could find a way to keep it down to one or two lists at a time though. They are very time consuming if you want to participate in earnest.


Which lists are going on right now? Seeing as the keyboard concerti list ended recently, the only one, that I am aware of, is the 'classical music project'.


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## Ravellian

String concerti sounds like a better idea than violin concerti. Speaking of lists, why not make the Top 50 sexiest women of classical music list?


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## Air

Ravellian said:


> String concerti sounds like a better idea than violin concerti. Speaking of lists, why not make the Top 50 sexiest women of classical music list?


I'm in for both... 

I've also started to compile a personal keyboard works list (my favorite classical music form!). Before I was a bit disorganized and didn't know where to go with them if we were to make a list but now I'm set to participate in that one too.

It all comes down to the fact that some of us have a compulsive need to make lists and do it for fun.


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## Trout

Ravellian said:


> String concerti sounds like a better idea than violin concerti. Speaking of lists, why not make the Top 50 sexiest women of classical music list?


Vanessa Mae


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## Weston

Trout said:


> Which lists are going on right now? Seeing as the keyboard concerti list ended recently, the only one, that I am aware of, is the 'classical music project'.


None at the moment that I am aware of - it's just that I was unable to keep up with both the keyboard concerti and the string ensemble list while they were simultaneous.


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## Pieck

Polednice said:


> I think we should compile a list of the best TC lists!
> 
> I'm not actually a fan of the listing, but obviously don't mind that it takes place, whether people view the voting as a game, or the end results as a serious endeavour. I'd be interested in watching a thread on tone poems without participating, but only in search of new ones that I haven't listened to...


I personally do it both for fun, and I get to know a lot of new pieces that the members think as masterpieces.


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## Pieck

I'm into a string concerti list right now (not sure how of them I know, probably not a hundred) and later chamber, sonatas (although there were no participatants almost at all)


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## jurianbai

top list Violin Concerto!!
and top sexiest!


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## Art Rock

Personally I would rather have a violin concerto list than string concertos.


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## Delicious Manager

I gave-up contributing to the chamber music list recently as it became so confusing and dragged on forever. I simply lost patience and interest. The lists can be interesting, but often say more about the people posting them than the music within the lists. I would prefer more objectivity in the lists, but being subjective is all too human.


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## emiellucifuge

Im up for Tone Poems


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## dmg

I'm down for a Tone Poem list and a Violin Concerto list. I do not think all string instruments should be lumped into one list, as I do not see double bass or cello and violin as the same class of instrument. It seems there are enough cello concerti and violin concerti for them to make separate lists. Maybe include cello and double bass together, and violin and viola together? And what about plucked string instruments (guitar, lute, harp, etc.)?


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## An Die Freude

I'm in for a sonata list and a concerto list.

Instead of separate lists, what about a list for all instrument concerti?


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## Webernite

Do we mean piano sonatas or chamber music sonatas, or both?


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## science

Delicious Manager said:


> I gave-up contributing to the chamber music list recently as it became so confusing and dragged on forever. I simply lost patience and interest. The lists can be interesting, but *often* say more about the people posting them than the music within the lists. I would prefer more objectivity in the lists, but being subjective is all too human.


I'd say "always."

But the personal ownership is interesting. Objectivity would take a lot of the fun out of it.


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## Couchie

Couchie likey lists of STRING CONCERTOS or, lists of SOLO PIANO WORKS.

COUCHIE ALSO LIKES SUNDAES ON SUNDAYS! :tiphat:


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## Weston

Webernite said:


> Do we mean piano sonatas or chamber music sonatas, or both?


For some reason chamber music sonatas just can't compete with piano sonatas in popularity and maybe in quantity. I think of them as two separate genres. The approach to listening is a little different too.


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## Pieck

Weston said:


> For some reason chamber music sonatas just can't compete with piano sonatas in popularity and maybe in quantity. I think of them as two separate genres. The approach to listening is a little different too.


Of course it's different, but why do you see chamber sonatas as 2nd grade? I'm up for chamber sonatas, one of my favorite genres. For piano sonatas I cant tribute a lot, but I will enjoy watching you making the list.


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## Trout

It seems that string concerti is the next in line for a list. I can go ahead and create the new thread, unless if someone else would rather do it.


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## mmsbls

Trout said:


> It seems that string concerti is the next in line for a list. I can go ahead and create the new thread, unless if someone else would rather do it.


By all means go ahead. I think it might be helpful to pattern this thread after the Top 100 Piano Concertos. Air did a wonderful job of introducing that thread and setting it up. It would be nice to have a period of comments so everyone can get on the same page, and we all can agree on exactly what constitutes a string concerto. Also if there is a little time before the first nominations are needed, people can take some time to think about their choices.


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## Ravellian

I propose a list of the top 20 most wanted TC lists!


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## jurianbai

if possible I still like to see an exclusive Violin concerto list, rather than another list made up of string instrument (cello,mandolin, guitar) concerto together.


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## Trout

jurianbai said:


> if possible I still like to see an exclusive Violin concerto list, rather than another list made up of string instrument (cello,mandolin, guitar) concerto together.


I don't know how much different it will be. I don't think there will be that many cello, mandolin, or guitar conceri on the list.


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## Air

jurianbai said:


> if possible I still like to see an exclusive Violin concerto list, rather than another list made up of string instrument (cello,mandolin, guitar) concerto together.


At the end, we can always extract the violin concerti (they'll make up 60% of the string concerti at least) in order to make a separate exclusive list, which eventually could be expanded further. But the main reason we're combining is because many of us aren't able to come up with 50 solid violin concerto recommendations and it's important that everyone feels comfortable to participate.


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## jurianbai

Trout said:


> I don't know how much different it will be. I don't think there will be that many cello, mandolin, or guitar conceri on the list.


the different is , it is a different instrument to compete.

but I will take the reason that it is hardly to find 50 exclusive VC.

any case, ready here.


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## Trout

The thread has been started: http://www.talkclassical.com/13252-tc-string-concerti-list.html


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## Air

Trout said:


> The thread has been started: http://www.talkclassical.com/13252-tc-string-concerti-list.html


Thanks for doing a great job Trout! The resulting list is magnificent.

Now that the TC String Concerti is coming to a close, we can pick what's to come next!

Here are some options:

1) 100 Keyboard Works (possible expansion to 150 and 200)
2) 50 Choral Works (possible expansion to 100)
3) 100 Chamber Music besides pure string ensembles
4) 50 Chamber Music for piano and string ensemble (Piano trios/quartets/quintets, possibly duos too)
5) 50 Chamber Duo Works/Sonatas (Violin and piano, cello and piano, so on)
6) 50 Tone Poems (possible expansion to 100)
7) 100 Orchestral Works besides Symphonies including Tone Poems, Suites, etc. (possible expansion to 150 and 200)
8) Top 50 Concerti besides String and Keyboard (possible expansion to 100)
9) Top 50 Concerti Grossi and Concerti for Multiple Instruments (possibly exclusively Baroque, possibly expanded)

My top three choices in order would be #1, #2, and #6.

If #1, I'd love to run the thread, since its the musical genre I enjoy most.


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## jurianbai

i would suggest:

top Woodwind concerto (flute vs oboe vs bassoon vs clarinet), possibly 50
top bowed string + piano sonata (violin, viola, cello sonata), possibly 100+


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## Pieck

jurianbai said:


> top bowed string + piano sonata (violin, viola, cello sonata), possibly 100+


Thumbs up, but I think we can add every instrument exists to that list not only string. But I'm willing to go either way.


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## Delicious Manager

jurianbai said:


> i would suggest:
> 
> top Woodwind concerto (flute vs oboe vs bassoon vs clarinet), possibly 50


I would welcome a 'Top 50' Non-string, non-piano concertos (embracing woodwind, brass and percussion [and harp?])


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## jurianbai

Pieck said:


> Thumbs up, but I think we can add every instrument exists to that list not only string. But I'm willing to go either way.





Delicious Manager said:


> I would welcome a 'Top 50' Non-string, non-piano concertos (embracing woodwind, brass and percussion [and harp?])


For both, that's because I think it will be more interesting if the scope is narrow. (We have the harp list already right??)

Btw, I am very limited in both suggestion so will only enjoy the thread rather seriously able to nominated the well known repertoire.

I also welcome either way either.



Air said:


> 2) 50 Choral Works (possible expansion to 100)


something like a non-opera choral works is interesting to see.


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## Huilunsoittaja

I would love to do a wind (that is, woodwind _and_ brass) concerto List. But I think what will happen is too few people would actually do it. Some of us here know more about certain instruments and their works, and may not get as much support for their nominations.


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## Delicious Manager

jurianbai said:


> something like a non-opera choral works is interesting to see.


By definition, 'choral' works are those which include a choir. What about works for soloist(s) and orchestra which have no choir parts (eg Mahler's _Rückert Lieder_, _Kindertotenlieder_, _Lieder eines fahrenden Gesellen_, Zemlinsky's _Lyric Symphony_, Ravel's _Shéhérazade_, etc, etc)?


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## emiellucifuge

Choral works seems cool to me.

However I think we should exclude orchestral works with single voices. These can be grouped into Lieder or Symphonies. E.g. Most of DM's examples are lieder (except Zemlinsky).


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## Delicious Manager

emiellucifuge said:


> Choral works seems cool to me.
> 
> However I think we should exclude orchestral works with single voices. These can be grouped into Lieder or Symphonies. E.g. Most of DM's examples are lieder (except Zemlinsky).


Ravel's _Shéhérazade_ is not an example of Lieder - it's French for a start (Lieder are, by definition, German). And I would argue against them being mere chansons (the French equivalent). They are more than that. OK, what about Bach cantatas (just for example) without chorus and multiple soloists (of which there are several instances). Or Handel _La resurrezzione_? I suppose Stravinsky's _Pulcinella_ is catered for were we ever to have a 'ballet' poll (ooh - how about THAT?).


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## dmg

What about top 20 masses?


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## Delicious Manager

dmg said:


> What about top 20 masses?


A good idea, but should include Requiems (which are masses, after all), Glorias, Beatus Virs, Credos and perhaps other religious works.


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## Aksel

Huilunsoittaja said:


> I would love to do a wind (that is, woodwind _and_ brass) concerto List. But I think what will happen is too few people would actually do it. Some of us here know more about certain instruments and their works, and may not get as much support for their nominations.


I agree. Although I do think it will be rather woodwind dominated. But definitely a list (if not two lists) for brass and woodwind concerti.


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## Air

emiellucifuge said:


> However I think we should exclude orchestral works with single voices. These can be grouped into Lieder or Symphonies. E.g. Most of DM's examples are lieder (except Zemlinsky).


This definition sounds good to me.

Right now, there seems to be two popular options:

1) top 50 Choral Works (possible expansion to 100)
2) top 50 Concerti besides String and Keyboard (possible expansion to 100)

Is there no support for top 150 keyboard works? It's a much more straight-forward genre and contains a solid amount of well-known pieces. Personally, this is the one I most want to do next.

Also, there was previously support for top 50 tone poems which may be a good idea since it's a category many can participate in. I think it would be a good idea to limit this list exclusively to tone poems since the addition of suites, overtures, incidental music, ballets, etc. can be confusing.

It would be nice to hear from everyone regarding their opinions.


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## mmsbls

I'd be happy with all three although (choral, non-keyboard/string concerti), and keyboard works.

My preference of order would be:

1) non-keyboard/string concerti
2) choral
3) keyboard works


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## Air

Due to my huge enthusiasm for this project, I've also put together a downloadable PDF version of all the lists that have been compiled so far (String Concerti, String Ensembles, Keyboard Concerti, Symphonies, Operas) that I've attached to this post. I've also corrected some of the errors that I found on these lists. If any of you have found these list extremely helpful as I have, don't hesitate to print out a copy of our work so far.

Is there anyone who would like to start choral works / non-string concerti / tone poems thread? I don't feel like I'm knowledgeable enough about these areas of classical music to facilitate these lists best. If not, I'd definitely be willing to start a keyboard works thread too since that has also garnered some support. 

It would just be nice to see this project getting back on it's feet. I've certainly missed it.


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## emiellucifuge

Thank you Air, thats useful.

I would love to continue with further lists. If no one steps up to moderating one in the next week or so, I will gladly take it upon me. My final exam is on the 27th and after that Ill have all the free time in the world.

Oh and, if you saw how I ranked the best symphonists using the data from the list - I would like to repeat that with each list and perhaps collect it all to get a slightly more objective (not really, but its still interesting) ranking of composers once we have done a fair amount of possible genres.


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## Aksel

I think I could do the 50 recommended non-string/woodwind and brass concerti, although I'll be gone next week.

And that compilation is damn nifty. Thanks, Air!


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## GoneBaroque

Delicious Manager said:


> I gave-up contributing to the chamber music list recently as it became so confusing and dragged on forever. I simply lost patience and interest. The lists can be interesting, but often say more about the people posting them than the music within the lists. I would prefer more objectivity in the lists, but being subjective is all too human.


I agree that list reveal more about the person making the list. They are useful, however, in leading the reader to music he or she is not familiar with .

Rob


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## Air

Aksel said:


> I think I could do the 50 recommended non-string/woodwind and brass concerti, although I'll be gone next week.





emiellucifuge said:


> If no one steps up to moderating one in the next week or so, I will gladly take it upon me. My final exam is on the 27th and after that Ill have all the free time in the world.


You guys are awesome! How about one of you open the non-string/woodwind/brass concerti thread right now? Then we can alert everyone about what's going and hopefully generate a good level of interest / give time to prepare so by the time both of you are back we're all set to go! Aksel, I take it that you're a trumpet player?



emiellucifuge said:


> Oh and, if you saw how I ranked the best symphonists using the data from the list - I would like to repeat that with each list and perhaps collect it all to get a slightly more objective (not really, but its still interesting) ranking of composers once we have done a fair amount of possible genres.


It would be an interesting exercise, definitely. I can't help but notice that Mozart has twice as many works as any other composer in the genre right now though - having scored the most symphonies (10), string concerti, and piano concerti and having a very solid total in the string ensemble and opera portions.


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## Webernite

I think the problem is that not many people have a thorough knowledge of the choral or tone-poem repertoire. I'd include myself in that. We could still do a thread, but the danger is that the list would end up being full of arbitrary choices and not particularly useful to the people it's meant to help. Correct me if I'm wrong, but non-string concerti don't even have a substantial "standard" repertoire; after the first ten pieces or so, the list would probably consist of rarely played works that just happen to be personal favorites of a few people here. 

TC Top 100 Keyboard Works seems like the most obvious choice, but even then, I'd exclude the organ, and possibly the harpsichord. What will happen if you include the harpsichord is that everything in the harpsichord repertoire except Bach will get ignored, while still technically being eligible. The list will lose credibility because it'll look so obviously biased against early music. So I guess I'm really abvocating a TC Top 100 Piano Works. It's a shame to exclude Bach, but the repertoire is massive even without him, and it would still probably be the biggest TC project so far.


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## Aksel

Air said:


> You guys are awesome! How about one of you open the non-string/woodwind/brass concerti thread right now? Then we can alert everyone about what's going and hopefully generate a good level of interest / give time to prepare so by the time both of you are back we're all set to go! Aksel, I take it that you're a trumpet player?


Trombone, actually. It will probably reflect in my voting, but what the hey.


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## Huilunsoittaja

I'll gladly join in the project. I'll post videos of flute concertos that I think are really excellent works. There aren't many, but enough to get up there. I know something of other instruments too, like Clarinet, Horn, Trumpet, etc.

Oh! And it may be a chance for me to advocate for a certain _Saxophone _concerto...


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## mmsbls

I would definitely be up for any of these lists. I admit that I would have to do significant listening to properly assess many works, but that is one of the main reasons I like these exercises. Air, emiellucifuge, or Aksel, if any of you lead, I'm happy to follow.


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## Trout

I agree with mmsbls. I'll be glad to contribute to any of these lists.


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## Aksel

The TC 50 Most Recommended Woodwind/Brass Concerti List is officially open.


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## Air

Here is the updated compilation of all the TC lists so far:
View attachment TC Top Recommended Lists.pdf


For our next list, I'm in for doing keyboard works if you're all fine with that. What do you guys think?


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## Trout

I'd be game for just about anything. Thanks for compiling all the lists together, however I cannot seem to view it.


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## mmsbls

I'm all in for the TC top keyboard list!


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## Pieck

My knowldedge is so small in that area, that I wont vote just to not make a wrong list.
But I will watch it happily and learn the new pieces.


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## TresPicos

Air said:


> Here is the updated compilation of all the TC lists so far:
> View attachment 2315
> 
> 
> For our next list, I'm in for doing keyboard works if you're all fine with that. What do you guys think?


Yay, I'll play!


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## Ravellian

YAY for keyboard!


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## Klavierspieler

Air said:


> For our next list, I'm in for doing keyboard works if you're all fine with that. What do you guys think?


Sounds good to me.


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## Air

Keyboard it is then! 

I think it is important to discuss qualifications for the list before it begins in order to avoid confusion.

There has been a controversy as to exactly which keyboard instruments should be included. This is a well-grounded concern, as it is almost unquestionable that the pianoforte will take up almost all of the list. However, it is also true that many works previously performed on chordophones such as the clavichord, harpsichord, and pianoforte are often, if not almost always, performed on the fortepiano today. Thus, these instruments I feel should all qualify.

Finally, it seems wise to exclude aerophones (organs and the like), idiophones (including celesta, glasschord, etc.), percussion, and any electronic instruments (unless you feel that this will hurt the inclusion of contemporary composers). As big as the organ repertoire is, I don't think it is quite fitting to include it among the aforementioned keyboard instruments, many which are interchangeable. Two instruments I do feel should be included are the prepared and player pianos, assuming that Cage and Nancarrow's works for these instruments are significant enough to make our list.

So, to sum it up, I would support the following instruments to qualify:

_Pianoforte
Fortepiano
Prepared Piano (i.e. Cage)
Player Piano (i.e. Nancarrow)
Harpsichord
Clavichord
Bogenclavier_

Please pitch in your thoughts.


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## Trout

I think it's a wise decision to exclude organ works. My question is the grouping of the works. Should we, let's say, lump all of Chopin's nocturnes/etudes/ballades/etc. together or group them by opus or by their number within the opus. I would think that the 1st and 2nd method would be the most practical. And the same should apply to other works like Mendelssohn's Songs without Words, Liszt's Hungarian Rhapsodies, etc.?


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## Air

I think by opuses makes the most sense for Chopin's _Nocturnes_ and _Mazurkas_, specifically. So instead of listing them all in one (which is too broad) or singling out a single work (which is too narrow) we can group together works like "Nocturnes, op. 9" or "Etudes, op. 10". The _Ballades_, as far as I know, are separate opuses, which means that each one of them can have their own entry (or not, if that is wiser).

The problem comes when we apply this logic to Liszt and other composers. I, for one, don't mind grouping the _Paganini Etudes_ together but when it comes to the S. 244 _Hungarian Rhapsodies_ it seems like an over-sized bunch (but then, still not as long as the WTC). I think for something like this, it's wisest to use your own discretion.

For most sets I would group together. Even something like Bach's _Well-Tempered Clavier_, Messiaen's _Vingt Regards_, Ligeti's _Etudes_, and Debussy's _Preludes_, in my opinion, should be grouped together, because separating them into books or individual numbers (!) would kind of seem like entry hogging. Schubert's _Impromptus_ is the most arbitrary - it really depends on how they are nominated first, combined, as separate opuses, or individual (hopefully not the last). I think sets of smaller works are generally more clear cut - each of Schumann's sets of miniatures (_Carnaval_, etc.) should be considered one work, since they are interrelated - the same could be said of Brahms, Liszt's _Annees_, Debussy's _Estampes_, etc., and Bach's _Partitas_ and _English Suites_. Rameau's two sets, too, are best left unseparated.

I'm a fan of splitting the Scarlatti sonatas. Since are goal is to make a reference list, grouping together the _Essercizi Sonatas_ goes nowhere to help point listeners to specific outstanding sonatas.

A last question remaining is something like Rachmaninoff's _Preludes_ and _Etudes-Tableaux_, which if we go by the Chopin logic should be split up into sets. I'm fine with that, though there's a case made to single out individual works as well.

*This is a tricky issue. The way we list entries will basically determine how long our list will be - whether <100 entries (a short list, mercilessly grouped) or if separated - anywhere up to 250. It would be nice to have your opinions.*

(A few last words: THANK GOD FOR PIANO SONATAS FOR MAKING OUR LIVES SO MUCH EASIER. )


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## mmsbls

I agree with the proposed instruments. 

The question of grouping works is perhaps difficult. I think grouping by opus makes sense, but we have grouped works not by opus in the "classical music project" thread:

Ligeti's Etudes (3 Books), the first 30 Scarlatti Sonatas, the Chopin Ballades, the Bach Toccata and Fugues, Prokofiev's 3 war sonatas, and the two Schubert Impromptu sets. 

I would probably want to separate the Prokofiev sonatas and Chopin Ballades and be willing to separate the two Impromptu opuses, but I'm not sure I would want to separate the Ligeti's Etudes or Scarlatti Sonatas.


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## TresPicos

The exclusion of organ works sounds good. 

When it comes to the grouping of works, it will be tough to draw the line. But I concur with most of your examples. 

I think we should go for a Top 150, since there are quite a few piano works to choose from.

Please keep the nomination rules and voting rules simple.


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## mmsbls

For those who would like to see potential keyboard works, there is a ordered list of 140 works here.


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## pjang23

I also agree with Air's examples. Separation by opus sounds good excluding those "inseparable" cases.

Just to clarify, I assume this will just be *solo* keyboard works, right? I think excluding keyboard duets (four hands, one piano e.g. Brahms Hungarian Dances), duos (four hands, two pianos e.g. Mozart Double Sonata in D+ K448) and etc. would keep things much simpler.



mmsbls said:


> For those who would like to see potential keyboard works, there is a ordered list of 140 works here.


4. Piano Sonata No. 14 in C sharp minor "Moonlight" - Ludwig Van Beethoven
11. Piano Sonata No. 32 in C minor - Ludwig Van Beethoven

9. Polonaise No. 6 in A flat major "Heroic" - Frederic Chopin
41. Ballade No. 4 in F minor - Frederic Chopin

Hehehe.


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## mmsbls

pjang23 said:


> 4. Piano Sonata No. 14 in C sharp minor "Moonlight" - Ludwig Van Beethoven
> 11. Piano Sonata No. 32 in C minor - Ludwig Van Beethoven
> 
> 9. Polonaise No. 6 in A flat major "Heroic" - Frederic Chopin
> 41. Ballade No. 4 in F minor - Frederic Chopin
> 
> Hehehe.


I'm not sure I understand your post. Do you think these works don't deserve to be on a top keyboard list?


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## pjang23

mmsbls said:


> I'm not sure I understand your post. Do you think these works don't deserve to be on a top keyboard list?


Haha, I actually think all those works would make the list. However, for each pair I didn't expect the top work to finish above the bottom work in a list of "greatest" works. I also think Ballade No.4 is far too low.


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## mmsbls

pjang23 said:


> Haha, I actually think all those works would make the list. However, for each pair I didn't expect the top work to finish above the bottom work in a list of "greatest" works. I also think Ballade No.4 is far too low.


I posted the link so people could see a reasonably large list of potential works. This helps people remember works and also gives them a chance to listen to new works they might not know before the voting begins or gets too far.


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## Klavierspieler

pjang23 said:


> Just to clarify, I assume this will just be *solo* keyboard works, right? I think excluding keyboard duets (four hands, one piano e.g. Brahms Hungarian Dances), duos (four hands, two pianos e.g. Mozart Double Sonata in D+ K448) and etc. would keep things much simpler.


I agree with pjang, this will help keep it simple; and later, perhaps, we could make a list of keyboard duets and duos.


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## Webernite

Grouping opus numbers means that the _Tempest_ and _Moonlight_ Sonatas can't be nominated individually, but I think it's worth it, for the sake of being consistent.


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## pjang23

I think splitting to individual sonatas, Hungarian Rhapsodies, and other overly weighty (but easily separable) opus numbers might be worth the logical inconsistency if it provides a better reference for listeners. Problem is that we might not agree on what's overly weighty and what's easily separable.


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## dmg

If you exclude organ and other keyboard instruments, you'll have to specify in the title (such as 'percussive keyboard instruments'). To be honest, I'm not a fan of excluding organ music or music for multiple keyboard instruments, but I'll participate either way.


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## Klavierspieler

I think that solo keyboard works is vast enough a genre without organ as well, later on we can make an organ works list if we want to.


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## Ravellian

The question of groupings is actually kind of important, unfortunately, but I think we should stick to the rule of voting by Opus numbers except when single opus numbers contain multiple large-scale (15+ minute) pieces. For example, there are three Op. 31 Beethoven piano sonatas, each of which are large, weighty works.

I would actually like organ works to be included, since it is a keyboard instrument like all the others... but whatever


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## dmg

Klavierspieler said:


> I think that solo keyboard works is vast enough a genre without organ as well, later on we can make an organ works list if we want to.


The problem is that I feel the organ repertoire is a very important category of music, and that if it isn't included in a list of keyboard works, it won't be included in a list anywhere.


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## pjang23

dmg said:


> The problem is that I feel the organ repertoire is a very important category of music, and that if it isn't included in a list of keyboard works, it won't be included in a list anywhere.


I would guess that people are not as familiar with organ repertoire (as well as duet/duo repertoire), and that would cause problems/bias when mixed with more familiar areas (loosely speaking, keyboard solo music you'd hear in concerts and recitals).


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## Air

Here is my proposition - we go with 150 piano/harpischord/clavichord works supplemented that with a top 30+ organ works which will be cumulatively known as TC's Top Keyboard Works. Thus, we don't exclude organ works from our project but at the same time we keep into account pjang23's concern, which I think makes a lot of sense.

The project will start next week when I get back from vacation. That is, on Saturday, the 20th of August, I will open the thread for the project.

Before then, there are several orders of business:

1) Continue discussing "classification". There seems to be a consensus that listing by opuses is best. However, we have made exceptions to this rule that are extremely important. Here is the general outlines for these exceptions:

A) Sonatas should be listed as separate works.
B) Inseparable sets (the kind of set that if you split up, will be a nuisance or take up too many spots) are to be nominated as single works. This includes WTC, Debussy's Preludes, Ligeti's Etudes, and most likely Shostakovich's Preludes and Fugues.
C) Liszt's Hungarian Rhapsodies and other _weighty_ works (define as you may) are to be listed separately.
D) Each of Bach's English Suites, Partitas, etc. and other such suites will be considered separately.
E) Feel free to list any other exceptions that you think should be considered beforehand so that we don't run into a problem later in the project!

2) Discuss the proposition that I mentioned regarding the two separated lists for piano/harpsichord/clavichord and organ works.

3) Talk about potential works you'd like to nominate! As per TresPicos's suggestion, brainstorm nominations so that we won't miss any when the time comes around. Discussion is good so that we get more people interested - hopefully we can max out our participation this time since this will be a large, potentially lengthy project and it's important to meet a certain quota of credibility.

See you all in a week!


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## Trout

Should we include works that were arranged for piano, such as Stravinsky's _Trois mouvements de Petrouchka_? I think it might be best to keep the works in the form they were originally written in, like Mussorgsky's Pictures, however (like Petrouchka) if the composer did arrange his or her own piece for piano, should it be included?


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## Webernite

Air said:


> D) Each of Bach's English Suites, Partitas, etc. and other such suites will be considered separately.


I'd actually find it easier if we grouped the suites (so there'd be three categories: English Suites, French Suites and Partitas). It's pretty hard to say which of the English Suites is the best, because they were all written about the same time and in a similar style. But there's a clear difference in style between the English Suites and the Partitas, so it would be easier to choose. Has anyone else got a view on this?


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## Klavierspieler

Trout said:


> Should we include works that were arranged for piano, such as Stravinsky's _Trois mouvements de Petrouchka_? I think it might be best to keep the works in the form they were originally written in, like Mussorgsky's Pictures, however (like Petrouchka) if the composer did arrange his or her own piece for piano, should it be included?


I'd say arrangements should only be used if either the composer made the arrangement or expressed satisfaction with the arrangement.


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## dmg

Also, if the arrangement is famous on its own merit, and not because it is an arrangement of 'x'.


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## Trout

Webernite said:


> I'd actually find it easier if we grouped the suites (so there'd be three categories: English Suites, French Suites and Partitas). It's pretty hard to say which of the English Suites is the best, because they were all written about the same time and in a similar style. But there's a clear difference in style between the English Suites and the Partitas, so it would be easier to choose. Has anyone else got a view on this?


I agree. (must fulfill character count)


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## Ravellian

No arrangements please - only works originally written for keyboard instruments. Most arrangements are unidiomatic anyway.


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## Trout

Ravellian said:


> No arrangements please - only works originally written for keyboard instruments. Most arrangements are unidiomatic anyway.


Petrouchka for piano three hands was mentioned on the DDD list, though, so I was just wanted to know other members' opinions on the topic.


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## Aksel

Klavierspieler said:


> I'd say arrangements should only be used if either the composer made the arrangement or expressed satisfaction with the arrangement.


I agree. [Character limit, I curse you]


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## pjang23

I guess that means Brahms' Op.18b Variations from Sextet No.1 (one of his own favorite arrangements) is allowed but posthumous transcriptions like Bach-Busoni Chaconne, Beethoven-Liszt Symphonies and Schubert-Liszt Songs are not.

Fair enough. Much as I love the posthumous transcriptions, I'd expect that we would run into the same problems as with organ music.


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## TresPicos

Albeniz' Iberia - one work or four (books=works)?


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## pjang23

TresPicos said:


> Albeniz' Iberia - one work or four (books=works)?


I would say one entry, but grouping is a judgement call. Do you think each book is distinct enough from the others to justify separate entries, or do you think it is redundant to have four separate entries (this is what we mean by "inseparable")

For comparison, we do not plan on separating Well-Tempered Clavier or Debussy Preludes.


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## Ravellian

The entire Iberia should be kept as a single entry. I would advise splitting the two WTC books into two separate entries, as they were written 20 years apart and the preludes are generally quite stylistically different between the books.


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## Trout

So, what next?


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## mmsbls

Here are Air's suggestions taken from an earlier post with the 2 lists we have done since then removed (solo keyboard, wind/brass concerti).

1) 50 Choral Works (possible expansion to 100)
2) 100 Chamber Music besides pure string ensembles
3) 50 Chamber Music for piano and string ensemble (Piano trios/quartets/quintets, possibly duos too)
4) 50 Chamber Duo Works/Sonatas (Violin and piano, cello and piano, so on)
5) 50 Tone Poems (possible expansion to 100)
6) 100 Orchestral Works besides Symphonies including Tone Poems, Suites, etc. (possible expansion to 150 and 200)
7) Top 50 Concerti Grossi and Concerti for Multiple Instruments (possibly exclusively Baroque, possibly expanded)

All are interesting to me with perhaps #1 and #3 of most interest.


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## Dodecaplex

I understand that no one will ever take me seriously for making this crazy suggestion, especially since I already created a thread about it a while ago and I was bombarded with negative criticism.  But, think about it, a list about fugal music would be absolutely amazing! Its title would be TC Top Recommended Fugal Pieces. And of course, because of this title, it wouldn't just include works that are strictly fugues, but also ricercars and fantasias that are written in a fugal form. Furthermore, it could also be able to include works such as Mozart's 41st.

What do you guys think?


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## pjang23

***Duplicate***


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## pjang23

Dodecaplex said:


> I understand that no one will ever take me seriously for making this crazy suggestion, especially since I already created a thread about it a while ago and I was bombarded with negative criticism.  But, think about it, a list about fugal music would be absolutely amazing! Its title would be TC Top Recommended Fugal Pieces. And of course, because of this title, it wouldn't just include works that are strictly fugues, but also ricercars and fantasias that are written in a fugal form. Furthermore, it could also be able to include works such as Mozart's 41st.
> 
> What do you guys think?


I think a recommended list for [works containing] fugues is conceivable, but the difficulty is that it would require members to have knowledge across many genres (e.g. someone who primarily listens to keyboard music may not know many of the best fugues in symphonic music). At the very least, I think a master list of fugues should be posted before any voting is done.

Also, I think it would be better if the fugues were isolated from the rest of the work. If we are evaluating fugues, I don't think the first three movements of Jupiter should carry any weight.


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## Dodecaplex

pjang23 said:


> I think a recommended list for [works containing] fugues is conceivable, but the difficulty is that it would require members to have knowledge across many genres (e.g. someone who primarily listens to keyboard music may not know many of the best fugues in symphonic music). At the very least, I think a master list of fugues should be posted before any voting is done.


Yes, in fact, now that I think about it, a thread titled "Every Fugue Ever Written" where every member can deposit the fugal works they know (sort of like the unranked recommendations) would be a better idea than an actual list for the greatest fugal works. Perhaps, _after that_, we could proceed with such a list (or maybe not, if it turns out to be too difficult).



> Also, I think it would be better if the fugues were isolated from the rest of the work. If we are evaluating fugues, I don't think the first three movements of Jupiter should carry any weight.


Yes, that was my exact reasoning as well. We could also seperate the fugues within works such as Bach's _Art of the Fugue_ and evaluate each fugue on its own (e.g. Contrapunctus XIV being greatly superior to, say, Contrapunctus III).


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## Trout

Ok aside from Dodecaplex's fugal list, I would be up for a list of choral pieces, chamber music, or tone poems.


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## pjang23

Trout said:


> Ok aside from Dodecaplex's fugal list, I would be up for a list of choral pieces, chamber music, or tone poems.


*Bump*

So, is anyone down for a new recommendation list?

My favorites right now would choral (would we just look at chorus+orchestra, or shall we also consider a cappella or any other accompaniment? What about symphonies with chorus?) or piano+strings (trios and up? violin/viola/cello sonatas?).

Also, one list that hasn't been brought up is a recommendation list for art songs.


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## Trout

pjang23 said:


> *Bump*
> 
> So, is anyone down for a new recommendation list?
> 
> My favorites right now would choral (would we just look at chorus+orchestra, or shall we also consider a cappella or any other accompaniment? What about symphonies with chorus?) or piano+strings (trios and up? violin/viola/cello sonatas?).
> 
> Also, one list that hasn't been brought up is a recommendation list for art songs.


So, I guess next in line would be the choral list, though I'm not sure how much participation it would garner considering that only a few members have shown interest.


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## mmsbls

I'm not sure if there is really little interest or the holidays have interfered with people's participation. Perhaps the best way to continue is to start a choral list thread starting after New Year's day. The first several days are always used to discuss details of the thread and get people to "sign up". If after several days there really are only a few people posting, maybe we drop it and try a different list.


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## science

Alternatively, the choral work list could be shorter than the others; no need to hope to go to 200. But I'd bet we could get to 50, especially if we allow a cappella.


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## Klavierspieler

Hmmmm... I'd be game for the Piano+Strings list but I'll have to sit out on the Choral list.


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## tdc

Lets face it, any list that we can get member 'Air' to organize is sure to be a success. 
I'm not saying no one else can run the lists, but going by his previous track record I kind of have a bias towards the lists run by Air.


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## Air

Thanks for your kind words, tdc, but I think I'll take a little break from organizing this one. This is partly because I think members like you, Trout, science, pjang23, mmmbls, emiel, jhar26, Klavierspieler, Ravellian, Dodecaplex, etc. (non-inclusive, there are many others!) can do an equally excellent job and partly because my knowledge of choral and chamber works is nowhere near as extensive as my knowledge for keyboard works and concerti is. I will continue to be an avid participater in every single one of these, however.

I say, let's do choral next, up to 50 or so. I can probably barely hold out.  I'm also really curious to see where pjang23's favorite choral work ends up. 


And I almost forgot - I have a little treat for you all. It's become a pretty mighty project and my hope is that it will only continue to grow!


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## Trout

I'd think the choral list could extend up to at least 100 considering the immense amount of choral pieces from the medieval and renaissance eras in addition to the others.


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## Air

WordCounter indicates that overall the top composers represented so far are:

1. Mozart - 58 works
2. Beethoven - 46 works
3. Bach - 32 works
4. Brahms, Chopin - 25 Works
6. R. Schumann - 24 Works
7. Schubert, Prokofiev - 23 Works
9. Haydn, Handel, Verdi - 20 Works
12. Tchaikovsky, Shostakovich, Rossini - 15 Works
15. Rachmaninoff - 14 Works
16. Liszt - 13 Works
17. Ravel, Dvorak - 12 Works
19. Debussy, Mendelssohn, Strauss, Puccini - 11 Works
23. Rameau, Donizetti - 10 Works
25. Mahler, Bruckner, Bartok, Sibelius - 9 Works
29. Wagner, Weber, Vivaldi, Vaughan Williams, Schoenberg, Janacek, Saint-Saens - 8 Works

Berlioz at 7, Stravinsky and Scriabin at 6, Messiaen and Ligeti at 3. Eventually we should have an exclusively "contemporary music" list to help living composers out. Poor Wagner, 1st and 2nd place sweep on the opera list should mean a lot more than it does when WordCounter compiles it.

A little bit heavy on opera right now, but with the exception of Handel (oratorios ad infinitum), we won't really be seeing any of these composers (Rossini, Donizetti, Verdi, Puccini) increase very much or at all. I'd expect to see Bach shoot up though once we include Choral and Organ works (symphonies, operas, etc. isn't really where he can be well-represented). With the exception of Vespers and perhaps The Bells, Rachmaninoff's number should also stay the same from this point out. Chopin, too, should stay at 25, unless the Cello Sonata and the 17 Songs make it (very possible).

At the end of the choral works list, we can definitely expect Renaissance composers (also - Monteverdi, Mahler [for him, lieder too!] and Bruckner) to become better-represented. Sibelius is lacking because the tone poem list has not come up yet. Stravinsky, too, because we haven't covered ballets. Interestingly, Prokofiev, the second most prominent ballet composer, is already over-represented, and will only continue to increase. We can also except the number of Mozart, Bach, Beethoven, Schubert, Brahms, Handel, Haydn, and Schumann to continue increasing, which is expected.

Of the remaining 'genres', perhaps only in chamber music and lieder can Beethoven catch up to Mozart.


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## dmg

I'm down for a choral works list.


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## pjang23

mmsbls said:


> I'm not sure if there is really little interest or the holidays have interfered with people's participation. Perhaps the best way to continue is to start a choral list thread starting after New Year's day. The first several days are always used to discuss details of the thread and get people to "sign up". If after several days there really are only a few people posting, maybe we drop it and try a different list.


Yeah, it'll be nice to have some extra days to explore choral literature. It's hard to give more than a few large scale works a good listen in a single day.

Anyone want to post some "to-do" lists? (Especially more obscure favorites)


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## Trout

pjang23 said:


> Yeah, it'll be nice to have some extra days to explore choral literature. It's hard to give more than a few large scale works a good listen in a single day.
> 
> Anyone want to post some "to-do" lists? (Especially more obscure favorites)


The DDD list is a pretty good list as well as this one.

What should be the qualifications for the pieces for the list? Pieces, such as Berlioz's La damnation de Faust, Berio's Sinfonia, and Stravinsky's Symphony of Psalms, I believe should qualify, however they have already placed on earlier lists. Should they be allowed to get nominated once more? Should lieder and song cycles qualify as well? Also, does anyone wish to begin and facilitate this project?


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## Oskaar

What about a scandinavian list?


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## mmsbls

I am not especially knowledgeable about choral works, but I would suggest the following requirements (to get others to chime in):

- A majority of movements must have vocal parts (i.e. Beethoven's 9th would not qualify)
- The work must have movements with choruses (i.e. more than a certain number of singers, but I don't know what that minimum number should be)
- If a work has qualified for a prior TC list and meets our choral requirements it can also qualify for this list
- a cappella works are included

I'd prefer someone else to facilitate the project, but if no one wants to do it, I will do it (as long as others with more expertise help with technical issues).


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## Aksel

I'm in on choral, yo.


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## Air

mmsbls, I agree completely with the terms you have laid out. A few questions though: does Mahler's _Das Lied_ count? Ravel's _Daphnis_? Villa-Lobos's _Chôros_ #10?



pjang23 said:


> Anyone want to post some "to-do" lists? (Especially more obscure favorites)


I need recommendations for Renaissance choral works. Right now I only know Palestrina's _Missa Papae Marcelli_, Byrd's _Mass for 4 voices_, and Monteverdi's _Vespers_.

As for my own obscure favorites, I ask nothing more from you all than to reserve a listen for Schumann's two great oratorios, or at least parts of them:

Nikolaus Harnoncourt on Szenen aus Goethes Faust, WoO 3 (the entire work is on YouTube):



> "One of the things that make Faust so incredible is Schumann's ability to select precisely those scenes from such a huge drama which illustrate that one aspect of redemption. In music, there are two or three famous sunrises - in The Creation and The Seasons by Haydn, and in Schumann's Faust-Szenen: Faust finds himself in a deep cavern. Day breaks, and Faust awakens to see how the sun shines upon the highest mountain tops. He himself still lies in darkness. Once the sunlight reaches him, he says, "So let the sun remain behind me!" because his eyes cannot bear the light. I think this sunrise with its oscillating changes of colour is one of the most beautiful moments in the history of music."


Classicalarchives.com on Das Paradies und die Peri, Op. 50 (YouTube snippet)



> Compared with those immediately preceding, the year 1843 was not especially fruitful for Robert Schumann; the only major work he produced was his oratorio, Paradise and the Peri. However, the compositional lessons that he took from his prolific explorations of lieder, chamber music, and symphonies seem to have coelesced in this large work for soloists, chorus, and orchestra... It was enthusiastically received by the Leipzig audiences, and over the next five years made its way through much of Europe, and even to New York, in 1848, Schumann's first international success. While today it is rarely performed compared to his lieder or symphonies, one can see why Schumann referred to this oratorio as "my most important composition in every sense of the word."


An extra treat: Requiem für Mignon - A lovely treasure that is perhaps Schumann's least-forgotten choral work of the last century or so (after his two oratorios fell out of fashion). Not nearly as important as the two aforementioned masterpieces, but a wonderful listen nevertheless!


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## mmsbls

Air said:


> mmsbls, I agree completely with the terms you have laid out. A few questions though: does Mahler's _Das Lied_ count? Ravel's _Daphnis_? Villa-Lobos's _Chôros_ #10?


All good questions. I think we will have some problems with a number of works.

According to the requirements I posted:
Das Lied - No (only single voice). If we allowed this, I think we have to allow all songs or long songs.
Daphnis - I believe no (chorus in fewer than half the movements I think). Obviously we could simply say the work has to have a chorus in more than one movement (unless the work only has one movement). 
Choros #10 - Yes. There is a chorus and it is not an insignificant part of the piece.

Another question I have is what defines chorus. Does there have to be multiple singers singing certain voices? For example, one of my favorite works is Tallis' Spem in Alium. The work is for 8 5-voice motets. I think this should count, but someone could argue it is technically not a chorus (I think). What about a single 5 voice motet?

I think we'll need to get more people's inputs to determine exactly what we want to include.


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## Klavierspieler

mmsbls said:


> Another question I have is what defines chorus. Does there have to be multiple singers singing certain voices? For example, one of my favorite works is Tallis' Spem in Alium. The work is for 8 5-voice motets. I think this should count, but someone could argue it is technically not a chorus (I think). What about a single 5 voice motet?


According to Wikipedia:



> A choir, chorale or chorus is a musical ensemble of singers. Choral music, in turn, is the music written specifically for such an ensemble to perform.


Later in the article it mentions _Spem in Alium_ as an example of a work for an extremely large number of parts.


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## Klavierspieler

@Air:

For Renaissance, a couple of my favorites are Tallis's _Lamentations of Jeremiah_, the aforementioned _Spem in Alium_, and John Taverner's _Westron Wynde Mass_.

As to Schumann, have you listened to _Der Rose Pilgerfahrt_? It's quite enjoyable also.


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## jalex

I'll probably take part for at least some of a choral list, if only to help Berlioz out a little; I think at least two from La Damnation de Faust, L'Enfance du Christ and the Requiem should make the top 50, and if you go down to 100 there is also the Te Deum (and Tristia and Lelio if you are really struggling :devil.


Other works worth remembering which don't appear on DDD are Purcell's Birthday Ode for Queen Mary (Come Ye Sons of Art), CPE Bach's Magnificat, Beethoven's Mass in C, Schubert's Mass #6, Messiaen's La Transfiguration...


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## Air

Klavierspieler said:


> @Air:
> 
> For Renaissance, a couple of my favorites are Tallis's _Lamentations of Jeremiah_, the aforementioned _Spem in Alium_, and John Taverner's _Westron Wynde Mass_.


Thank you! I'm glad that we have so many Renaissance listeners here. I'll try my best to at least get to all the works you mentioned, plus something or another by Des Prez and maybe Hildegard (want to try out something even earlier!).

I also hope that Handel isn't forgotten (besides the Messiah, of course!). I have at least three other works by him I plan on nominating. I guess if HarpsichordConcerto joins us, then we won't have to worry about that. 

Anyone have a short list for modern choral works? I know a handful of them...


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## jalex

Josquin's Missa Pange Lingua is top ten material, seriously good. A couple of his other Masses should appear as well (DDD lists a 'Missa l'Homme Arme' but he actually wrote two of them, and both are very good).


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## Trout

Air said:


> I need recommendations for Renaissance choral works. Right now I only know Palestrina's _Missa Papae Marcelli_, Byrd's _Mass for 4 voices_, and Monteverdi's _Vespers_.


Also, check out Dufay's _Missa Se la face ay pale_, Ockeghem's _Requiem_ and _Missa Prolatinum_, La Rue's _Requiem_, Lassus's _Seven Penitential Psalms of David_, Monteverdi's _Madrigals_, Gesualdo's _Madrigals_ and _Tenebrae Responsories_, Josquin's _Missa Pange Lingua_, and Victoria's _O Magnum Mysterium_.


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## Air

Trout said:


> Also, check out Dufay's _Missa Se la face ay pale_, Ockeghem's _Requiem_ and _Missa Prolatinum_, La Rue's _Requiem_, Lassus's _Seven Penitential Psalms of David_, Monteverdi's _Madrigals_, Gesualdo's _Madrigals_ and _Tenebrae Responsories_, Josquin's _Missa Pange Lingua_, and Victoria's _O Magnum Mysterium_.


:O

I will try my best.

Also - we should probably expand to 100.


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## pjang23

Yeah I also think 100 will be feasible if we go into smaller scale works like motets and cantatas. I admit I'm weak with Medieval/Renaissance (besides the few big names) as well as with Handel oratorios.

Some lesser-known favorites so far:

*Mathieu*
Songs for Choir and Orchestra (Tracks 8-11. You can listen to streams for free on the provided link)

Short and sweet.  I plan to push this later on after most of the big names are in.

*Schubert*
Mass No.6 - Considered his best mass.

Mass No.2 - A very short and sweet mass. Recommended!
Mass No.5
Lazarus - Haven't listened to this in full yet.

Not sure how to order the latter three, but Lazarus seems to be the most significant.

*Haydn*
We're familiar with The Creation, Lord Nelson Mass, and The Seven Last Words.

The Seasons is also worth a listen (These numbers Link 1 Link 2 should win you over ) and I will be pushing it early on. Still exploring his masses.

*Brahms*
Nänie does not even appear on the DDD list. 

I will push in rough order Nänie, Requiem, Alto Rhapsody. Then Gesang der Parzen and Schicksalslied in either order.

For some more obscure favorites, I love
Geistliches Lied - The canon at 3:57 
Warum ist das Licht gegeben - A motet influenced by his love for Palestrina's music


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## Dodecaplex

*Ho ho ho! Don't forget Luigi Cherubini, guys. I'd put his Requiem in C minor somewhere in my top 5 choral works. Even Beethoven worshipped that Requiem. An absolutely ingenious and beautiful work.
*


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## Trout

So, what is the decision regarding lieder and songs? Is this the TC choral list or the TC vocal list? I'm fine with their inclusion or exclusion (as long as they get a separate list), however if they are included, I believe the list could extend past 100.


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## science

I'd actually like to see a separate lieder project, personally. I'd be _very_ interested in the results!


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## mmsbls

I'm inclined to leave lieder out of the choral list.


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## Trout

So, any volunteers to initiate and facilitate the project? I'll do it only if no one else wants to, though I do not think I am the best person for that position.


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## mmsbls

I will volunteer to facilitate the list. As I've said, I'm not especially knowledgeable about choral works, but with help from others I think things will work out. 

Tomorrow I will start a thread in the Vocal Music section introducing the list. The above discussion has been useful, but I think we still need a bit of time to determine the requirements of choral works perhaps a bit better. Once we're reasonably happy with those requirements, I'll open the first round. We'll also have to eventually decide on the number of works. 50 is clearly doable, and 100 is possible although I'm not sure how many people would feel comfortable with 100.


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## Trout

mmsbls said:


> I will volunteer to facilitate the list. As I've said, I'm not especially knowledgeable about choral works, but with help from others I think things will work out.
> 
> Tomorrow I will start a thread in the Vocal Music section introducing the list. The above discussion has been useful, but I think we still need a bit of time to determine the requirements of choral works perhaps a bit better. Once we're reasonably happy with those requirements, I'll open the first round. We'll also have to eventually decide on the number of works. 50 is clearly doable, and 100 is possible although I'm not sure how many people would feel comfortable with 100.


:clap: Wow, thanks! A suggestion I might make is to start the thread in the general classical music discussion seeing as it gets a lot more traffic than the vocal music section.


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## Air

I know Talk Classical already has a Spotify playlist, but I took the liberty to make another one specifically for choral recommendations (for this project). Here's the link!

Add any of your (preferably more obscure) favorites! 

I added three works from our side of the globe, by the great Heitor Villa-Lobos.

The first is the Bachianas Brasileiras #9 sung a capella (sounds difficult!). This piece is usually played by a string orchestra so the choral version is rare. But interestingly, it was originally meant to be sung a capella as well.

The second is the Chôros No. 10, arguably the most famous of the set. This Stravinskian piece features a both hymnic and utterly savage choral section (starting at around 7:22).

The third work is one of my favorites by Villa-Lobos, but I don't think it counts as a choral work since the choir is mostly a backdrop and is only featured in the 2nd and 3rd movements. What do you all think? If it doesn't count, I will promptly remove it, but try to give it a listen anyways since it's absolutely gorgeous!


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## mmsbls

I have started the TC Top 50 Most Recommended Choral Works thread in the Classical Music Discussion section. The first round is a pre-nomination round where we'll discuss anything relevant to the project. In particular we must finalize the requirements for choral works to qualify.

Come to learn, have fun, and create TC history!


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## emiellucifuge

I havent been particularly active in the choral music list past the first 30 or so positions, but have watched with great interest as it took form, and now as it will be done with the next few days I thought it appropriate to discuss ideas for the next lists.

If anyone shares my ambition I think it would be very cool to finish as good as possible all possible genres of classical music and then combine all the lists to create a list of top pieces of music. Ive worked out a simple method already.

But first we must continue on per genre. A few genres we have yet to do:

Solo works of instruments beside keyboards,
Lieder or some other vocal music (?)
tone poems,
Ballets,
miscellaneous orchestral stuff, (suites, serenades, various short pieces etc..)
other chamber music - piano trios, etc..

Im sure theres more....

Personally id be willing to organise the next one as I have enough time in the near future.
also, ive attached a compilation of the extant lists, excluding the current one, as I couldnt find the sheet posted by another member earlier.

Hoping you're all enthusiastic as I,
Emiel
View attachment TC lists.zip


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## mmsbls

I'd be up for anything besides lieder (I'm simply too ignorant of this genre to participate). 

A specific list suggested by Air from earlier is:

100 Chamber Music besides pure string ensembles
50 Chamber Music for piano and string ensemble (Piano trios/quartets/quintets, possibly duos too)
50 Chamber Duo Works/Sonatas (Violin and piano, cello and piano, so on)
50 Tone Poems (possible expansion to 100)
100 Orchestral Works besides Symphonies including Tone Poems, Suites, etc. (possible expansion to 150 and 200)
Top 50 Concerti Grossi and Concerti for Multiple Instruments (possibly exclusively Baroque, possibly expanded)


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## Dodecaplex

I will be up for facilitating a *Fugal Works List *at any time (and I already have the entire rules and details figured out). Notify me if (and when) you guys want to make it.

For the current time, here's TC's master wiki of fugal works:
http://tcfi.mooo.com


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## jalex

Any kind of chamber or orchestral music would be fine, I could also manage a few rounds of lied. If it's orchestral I'd prefer a general list of works which aren't symphonies than one specifically of tone poems.


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## Trout

I'd be up for a nonexclusive chamber music list or orchestral list. Another idea I had is to possibly extend the string concertos list if anyone else is up for it.


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## Klavierspieler

I'd be up for Lieder.


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde

I've been thinking of starting a top 200 music written after 1950


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## mmsbls

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> I've been thinking of starting a top 200 music written after 1950


I would be especially interested in a post 1950 list. I hope enough TC members would participate to give the project reasonable support and enough votes per work.


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## emiellucifuge

I would be up for the idea as long as it didnt include works that are eligible or included in the other lists. 
Also I would need to do a lot of research.


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## pjang23

If we do chamber, I would be in favor of doing separate lists for piano+strings (piano trios plus) and duos/sonatas.

I'd also be happy to do lieder.


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## Dodecaplex

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> I've been thinking of starting a top 200 music written after 1950


That could persuade Sid James and some guy to finally participate in a list.


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## mmsbls

There seems to be support for another TC list. Since several projects have been suggested, I think someone should step up to facilitate a specific list. We can then discuss the nomination requirements and any other necessary details. If no one wants to initiate a list, I'll volunteer to facilitate a piano chamber list (I'm also in favor of excluding sonatas). 

But I'd be happy to have someone else move forward with a list they'd like to facilitate.


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde

I'll do the music after 1950 in maybe a month's time unless anyone else thinks that I should start it straight away.


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## emiellucifuge

As mmslbs was the first to go ahead and take charge I think we should start ahead with a piano chamber list. Excluding sonatas methinks


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde

emiellucifuge said:


> As mmslbs was the first to go ahead and take charge I think we should start ahead with a piano chamber list. Excluding sonatas methinks


I'm all for it.


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## Trout

mmsbls said:


> There seems to be support for another TC list. Since several projects have been suggested, I think someone should step up to facilitate a specific list. We can then discuss the nomination requirements and any other necessary details. If no one wants to initiate a list, I'll volunteer to facilitate a piano chamber list (I'm also in favor of excluding sonatas).
> 
> But I'd be happy to have someone else move forward with a list they'd like to facilitate.


I'd be willing to run or the project considering how hard you worked on the last one, or I can at least assist you with it, such as alternating rounds counting votes, announcing nominations, etc.


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## mmsbls

@Trout, emiellucifuge, and ComposerOfAvantGarde: Thanks for volunteering to facilitate lists. I'm happy to start the piano chamber list. The more this project progresses, the more lists seem possible (non-piano sonatas, non-keyboard solo works, various non-symphony orchestral work lists, non-piano chamber, concerti grossi, modern, etc.) Eventually we'll have a wonderful set of lists covering a very wide range of classical works, and we'll need people to facilitate each new one.

I'm always a bit concerned that either interest will be too small at the start or participation will dwindle too much during the process, but so far we've never had that problem. I'll start a piano chamber list in the Classical Music Discussion forum soon, but perhaps we should start a brief discussion here about the requirements and make sure there is adequate interest.

I would suggest the following requirements:
- Works must have a piano 
- There must be more than two instruments (i.e. no sonatas)
- The ensemble must be a chamber group (limited number of instruments)
- Winds, brass, strings, or possibly other instruments can be present

The last allows works such as Mozart's Quintet for Piano and Winds and Messiaen's Quartet for the End of Time.

So two questions:

Is there interest in a Top TC Piano Chamber Works lists?
Do people have suggestions for modifying the requirements?


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## Klavierspieler

@mmsbls:

Yes.
None here.


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde

mmsbls said:


> I would suggest the following requirements:
> - Works must have a piano
> - There must be more than two instruments (i.e. no sonatas)
> - The ensemble must be a chamber group (limited number of instruments)
> - Winds, brass, strings, or possibly other instruments can be present
> 
> The last allows works such as Mozart's Quintet for Piano and Winds and Messiaen's Quartet for the End of Time.
> 
> So two questions:
> 
> Is there interest in a Top TC Piano Chamber Works lists?
> Do people have suggestions for modifying the requirements?


Answer to the two questions: 1. Yes 2. No

But I'd like to know if this particular work scored for:

Flute (dobles on piccolo)
Oboe (doubles on oboe d'amore (from what I remember))
Clarinet 1
Clarinet 2 (doubles on bass clarinet)
Horn
Trombone
Piano (doubles on celesta)
Harpsichord (doubles on either harmonium or Hammond organ depending on what's available)
String quartet + double bass

Would be acceptable as a nominated work.


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## Trout

@mmsbls, what Klavierspieler and ComposerOfAvantGarde said.



ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> Answer to the two questions: 1. Yes 2. No
> 
> But I'd like to know if this particular work scored for:
> 
> Flute (dobles on piccolo)
> Oboe (doubles on oboe d'amore (from what I remember))
> Clarinet 1
> Clarinet 2 (doubles on bass clarinet)
> Horn
> Trombone
> Piano (doubles on celesta)
> Harpsichord (doubles on either harmonium or Hammond organ depending on what's available)
> String quartet + double bass
> 
> Would be acceptable to be a nominated work.


I think a cap on the number of performers should be initiated. So, under a reasonable number (no more than 10 performers, perhaps?), I don't think it would qualify.


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## science

I think 10 would be an appropriate number. I'd be surprised if more than one or two things 11+ would get on the list even if we opened it up for that.

Bach had 17 musicians for the Brandenburg Concertos and I don't think anyone considers them chamber works. So I'd say 16 must be the absolute limit. 

What works are there for 11 to 16 musicians?


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde

science said:


> I think 10 would be an appropriate number. I'd be surprised if more than one or two things 11+ would get on the list even if we opened it up for that.
> 
> Bach had 17 musicians for the Brandenburg Concertos and I don't think anyone considers them chamber works. So I'd say 16 must be the absolute limit.
> 
> What works are there for 11 to 16 musicians?


*Ligeti* Kammerkonzert


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## emiellucifuge

A lot of composers in the last 50 years have written music for various ensembles that dont yet fall under the orchestra group, but are too big to be considered real chamber ensembles.

Im thinking primarily of Boulez.


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## science

A reflection on the process.

In the nomination stage, we each nominate 10 (apparently the order matters) works and those nominations are counted (the scoring process is essentially secret) and we are given (passive voice is essential) a choice of 10 works, of which - here is the key - we are allowed to vote for 5, in an order that apparently matters. From our 5 votes, a list of 10 is created (somehow the votes are calculated in another secret process), the final list of recommendations #1-10. The process is repeated to create #11-20, and so on.

I've always been bothered (angered sometimes) by the unwillingness of anyone to explain the way the votes are calculated, and further bothered by the arbitrariness of it - why 2 rounds? why 10/5/10? And so on....

But now I've figured out a bit of it, and also figured out why some of you - who have evidently been _in the know_ - vote so curiously.

In the 2nd round of voting, why select 10 out of lists of 5? That guarantees that the bottom of the 10 (say, #7 or so to #10) are sort of like scraps that got on just a couple of lists.

1-5 or so, 11-15 or so, 21-25 or so, and so on, are going to be solid winners with a mass of support; 7 or so to 10, 17 or so to 20, 27 or so to 30, and so on are going to be wildcards with a couple of avid supporters.

So the smart strategy, if you want to maximize the influence of your own preferences, is to vote exclusively for odd favorites so that they that might make the back end of the list while other people waste their few votes on front-end shoe-ins.

I guess the process is designed to produce a mildly surprising list. Nothing wacko enough to risk actually delegitimizing ourselves, but just mix a few things up a bit for our own amusement. For that, the design is perfect, so that was probably the goal.

Personally, when I want recommendations, I want recommendations with as little idiosyncrasy as possible. (That is why, in the past year, I've changed strategies from asking about "favorites" to asking about "most famous.") Anyway, even trying to understand these occult mysteries is probably to take the whole process too seriously - a thing that evidently no one does.

It saddens me because I have been basically desperate for reliable guidance for several years, and it was hard to come by. Now that I am familiar with probably almost all of the top 30 or so works on any of these lists, and at least half of the top 100, and so on, it doesn't matter so much, and I can enjoy the surprises. But my heart goes out to my younger self, and to people in his place. If only the knowledgeable people of the world would be more helpful - heck, once we get past the top 500 or so works, I'm as lost as I ever was.


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## Trout

science said:


> A reflection on the process.
> 
> In the nomination stage, we each nominate 10 (apparently the order matters) works and those nominations are counted (the scoring process is essentially secret) and we are given (passive voice is essential) a choice of 10 works, of which - here is the key - we are allowed to vote for 5, in an order that apparently matters. From our 5 votes, a list of 10 is created (somehow the votes are calculated in another secret process), the final list of recommendations #1-10. The process is repeated to create #11-20, and so on.
> 
> I've always been bothered (angered sometimes) by the unwillingness of anyone to explain the way the votes are calculated, and further bothered by the arbitrariness of it - why 2 rounds? why 10/5/10? And so on....
> 
> But now I've figured out a bit of it, and also figured out why some of you - who have evidently been _in the know_ - vote so curiously.
> 
> In the 2nd round of voting, why select 10 out of lists of 5? That guarantees that the bottom of the 10 (say, #7 or so to #10) are sort of like scraps that got on just a couple of lists.
> 
> 1-5 or so, 11-15 or so, 21-25 or so, and so on, are going to be solid winners with a mass of support; 7 or so to 10, 17 or so to 20, 27 or so to 30, and so on are going to be wildcards with a couple of avid supporters.
> 
> So the smart strategy, if you want to maximize the influence of your own preferences, is to vote exclusively for odd favorites so that they that might make the back end of the list while other people waste their few votes on front-end shoe-ins.


I think the "counting up votes process" is quite simple. The number of nominations is usually given top priority, then the cumulative rank of the pieces is used to break any ties in the number of nominations.

When I facilitated the String Concertos list, I tried a different strategy in which from the top 10 that were nominated, only the top five from those that were voted on the highest/most in the second round would be added to the list. The remaining five would then join the five that had the most nominations in the next voting round, creating another 10 nominations to be voted upon. From those 10, only the top five would get added to the list and the process would repeat again until the desired number of pieces on the list was met.


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## emiellucifuge

Science, the process was debated extensively in the first lists we made and im sure it has been posted or explained a few times; it is quite public. I have personally explained it via PM to a few requesting members and would be happy to repeat myself. The only exception are the lists moderated by trout which use a slightly different method.

The counting procedure is not designed to provide an odd list, but to reflect most accurately the choices made by members. Thats why we have two rounds, so that those who did not necessarily nominate works that enter into the group still have a say on their order. It is not that the other 5 are scraps, but the opposite; that the 5 most deserving gain their place.

In any case the procedure is always up for criticism so good of you to voice your concerns. We can always modify it for the next lists.


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## science

Well, thanks for your explanations. I'm sure I asked at least twice before without getting one, but better late than never.


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## mmsbls

science said:


> In the nomination stage, we each nominate 10 (apparently the order matters) works and those nominations are counted (the scoring process is essentially secret) and we are given (passive voice is essential) a choice of 10 works, of which - here is the key - we are allowed to vote for 5, in an order that apparently matters. From our 5 votes, a list of 10 is created (somehow the votes are calculated in another secret process), the final list of recommendations #1-10. The process is repeated to create #11-20, and so on.


The scoring process is not always explained, but the scoring I have used is explained here. I did forget to post this scoring explanation in the Piano Chamber work and I will do so now. I believe Air has used essentially the same process in Lists.


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## emiellucifuge

science said:


> Well, thanks for your explanations. I'm sure I asked at least twice before without getting one, but better late than never.


I must have missed your requests. But if you care to look I spent considerable time talking about the method with a (rather annoying) member:
http://www.talkclassical.com/11038-tc-150-top-recommended-3.html#post120335

I believe the discussion is continued in the following pages. You may also like to check Jhars post in the opera list in which the original method is explained:
http://www.talkclassical.com/10924-tc-100-top-recommended-27.html#post120252

I think all the lists have used these methods or slight variations.


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## science

emiellucifuge said:


> Science, the process was debated extensively in the first lists we made and im sure it has been posted or explained a few times; it is quite public. I have personally explained it via PM to a few requesting members and would be happy to repeat myself. The only exception are the lists moderated by trout which use a slightly different method.
> 
> The counting procedure is not designed to provide an odd list, but to reflect most accurately the choices made by members. Thats why we have two rounds, so that those who did not necessarily nominate works that enter into the group still have a say on their order. It is not that the other 5 are scraps, but the opposite; that the 5 most deserving gain their place.
> 
> In any case the procedure is always up for criticism so good of you to voice your concerns. We can always modify it for the next lists.


Perhaps I can still make a contribution to the projects. The counting procedure...

Dvorak's Dumka trio came in 10th with 6 votes out of at least 16 votes in the second stage of the first round of the piano chamber project. So it's 10th. Perhaps it deserves that, but my point is different.

If we'd only enshrined 9 works in the second stage of the first round, and if the second round had exactly the same voters as the first round (and they hadn't changed their mind about anything), Dvorak's trio might not have come in first (putting it in 10th place). It might even have gotten only 6 votes again. In fact, the only way for it to come in first would be for about ten people to add it (judging from Trout taking first with 16 votes).

Perhaps that's a problem, or perhaps not. I think the system was designed to create that kind of result - taking a little information (~6 votes) and treating it as if it were a lot of information (~the consensus 10th choice of >16 voters). A cabal who know how to game the system can do so - and, perhaps, do. For instance, the 8 voters (a minority) who selected Messiaen's QPLFDT got it into 5th place, all of them but one ranking it first or second. They knew what they were doing. Had voters created a list of 10, from which we selected a top five (the reverse of our method, taking a lot of information and treating it as if it were a little), no minority of voters would've been able to get a work into the top 5.

Anyway, obviously this is an outsider's POV, and now it'd be best for me to stay out of the list projects for awhile, but in case your "good of you to voice your concerns" comment was genuine, I thought I'd try to explain as well as I can.


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## emiellucifuge

Of course it was genuine and you do raise some good points. Short of redoing every list, do you have any suggestions to improve the system?


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## science

emiellucifuge said:


> Of course it was genuine and you do raise some good points. Short of redoing every list, do you have any suggestions to improve the system?


Allowing more votes in the second stage is the obvious answer. I'd suggest that the number of votes allowed should be equal or greater than the number that are going to be selected - i.e., rather than everyone voting for 5 and then enshrining 10, everyone votes for 10 and then 5 are selected. In a system like that the "just miss" of one round are pretty likely to be the top of the next round. Unfortunately, the tabulation is more work for you guys, and a 10 vote / 5 selection system would probably generate so much unnecessary information that the work would probably be odious. A 5/5 or a 10/10 system might be a happy medium.

But I would not change any project currently underway. No need to do something like that!

I suppose something like a 5 / 15 system would be very interesting - because of all that back-end randomness. There'd be a ton of gamesmanship once people figured out the system. But that's not the goal....

And of course there are obvious ways to game a 10/5 system too - though I would bet that gaming that system would be much harder to do in practice, only experience would show.

Anyway, I regret my interference. You guys have put a lot of thought into the systems and really the difference in final results from one system to another is not nearly as great as the difference from one group of voters to another, so that it probably isn't very important.

As to doing all the lists over again - in the distant future, I think that is a great idea. Not because the new lists would be improvements on the old lists - all lists are probably created equal - but because a different set of participants would produce different results, and the differences would be as interesting as either list.

Actually, I'm practicing what I preach in this case - I think that as long as I live and the internet exists, I'm going to go from board to board doing some version of "the classical music project." I'm making an Excel spreadsheet with the results, as well as the DDD list which is the only comparable thing I'm aware of already in existence (and sadly it only goes to 200). In perhaps a decade, I assume a considerable amount of music will be purchased via download or cloud access, and I hope to get stats about those, also from services like Naxos and Spotify. Compiling, comparing and contrasting all that information promises to be very informative!

In fact, if you guys would like to make a project, something like "TC top recommended 1000 works" using your 2-stage voting methodology, but without excluding any works of any genres, I would _love_ to see the results. I understand that you don't want to do that while you've got other things going on, and you'd probably also prefer to do a few more of the individual genres first. But really, I'd even be willing (nay, eager) to do the vote counting myself if I'm not banned at that time. In fact, if the "classical music project" winds down, it would probably only be a matter of months until I actually did do such a thing. (I would, if I were the facilitator of that list, definitely not use a 5/10 system though, as the list would be for my purposes - I mean, I'd actually take the recommendations seriously in a personal way - so I'd want a 10/5 or similar system in order to minimize back-end randomness; the work not being odious to me because I would dearly love to have that information.)

(Way off topic here though, sorry for that, but I am excited about this. Also, sorry for the multitude of edits - but I hope you will forgive me as I am excited about it.)


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## emiellucifuge

I mentioned something like a master list earlier in the thread. It would be slightly silly to neglect the work done so far, so my theory for the method was as follows:

- The rank one from each list are collected and voted upon. The winner gains 1st place.
- If, for example the winner was the 1st rank from the opera list, then the 2nd rank from that list would take its place in the collection and so on.

This way the order within each genre is preserved as we have already determined, but they are simply merged. Also works not included in any of the lists may be nominated at each stage.


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## science

emiellucifuge said:


> I mentioned something like a master list earlier in the thread. It would be slightly silly to neglect the work done so far, so my theory for the method was as follows:
> 
> - The rank one from each list are collected and voted upon. The winner gains 1st place.
> - If, for example the winner was the 1st rank from the opera list, then the 2nd rank from that list would take its place in the collection and so on.
> 
> This way the order within each genre is preserved as we have already determined, but they are simply merged. Also works not included in any of the lists may be nominated at each stage.


I suppose that'd be fine. I wonder whether it would produce surprisingly high results for something like the harp concertos - and, if I've understood your proposal, I could imagine quite a bit of frustration later in the project when the participants found they would have to select, say, a symphony previously ranked at #147, before they were able to move on to _any_ other symphonies. But there is also something to be said for tradition - the previous generations have a kind of authority, and we could grant them that for the purposes of both saving work and seeing the interesting results produced by interesting constraints.

All the same, if the only reason for adopting that methodology (letting previous lists dictate the candidates available for voting) actually is to save work, then do it anytime but the summer and I'll do the counting of nominations for you.

Preserving the order of earlier lists has an elegance to it, but if you are going to make such a list eventually anyway, you might as well do the master list right away and simply derive individual genres from it. In principle, you could even derive things like "Most recommended works by 19th century French composers" from the big list. (I did this mentally from the "classical music project" for the piano chamber thread.)

Anyway, regardless of the details of the methodology, such a list would be precious to me - I suppose even if it followed something like a 5/15 system and introduced all that randomness!


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## mmsbls

The TC Piano Chamber List is coming to a close (tomorrow morning). There have been several new list possibilities discussed. I think it's not a bad idea to have a break between lists, but the discussion could start now. It usually takes a couple of weeks to finalize the topic, facilitator, and rules.


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde

I think there should be lists dedicated to composers. Maybe a TC Top 626 Mozart.


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## Dodecaplex

Fugal works?


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## science

I know I'm an outsider to this process, and I certainly don't want to step on anyone's toes! - But I'd be eager (now, or anytime in the future) to moderate a no-works-barred list using the basic method you guys have used on the lists so far.

However, in principle, I'd like to put that project off as long as possible: first, to avoid clashing with the "talk classical project" which is really the same thing only with a different method of voting, and second, the longer we wait the more participants will have turned over (veterans departing and newbies arriving), who will not have participated in that project, and we'll get a more diverse set of voices involved.


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## science

Has there been a list for solo instrument other than piano/keyboard? ...solo guitar, solo cello, solo violin... 

Also - how about by period? The categories of our lists seem not too well designed to accommodate a lot of music from the Middle Ages up to the Baroque; for instance, we had a lot of discussion about trio sonatas in the piano-chamber project. 

Finally, if we decide to do sonatas, I think it'd be a good idea just to call it duets, so that we can include things like duets for two violins, or for guitar and violin, and so on, that aren't called sonatas.


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde

I'll host solo guitar of you want. Guitar is my main instrument.


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## mmsbls

science said:


> Has there been a list for solo instrument other than piano/keyboard? ...solo guitar, solo cello, solo violin...


No. The complete set of lists is here.



science said:


> Also - how about by period? The categories of our lists seem not too well designed to accommodate a lot of music from the Middle Ages up to the Baroque; for instance, we had a lot of discussion about trio sonatas in the piano-chamber project.
> 
> Finally, if we decide to do sonatas, I think it'd be a good idea just to call it duets, so that we can include things like duets for two violins, or for guitar and violin, and so on, that aren't called sonatas.


We have not done period, and that could be interesting. One issue would be that the period list would probably contradict individual lists in that different participants at different times would be voting so the order of certain works would not be consistent (e.g. in Classical, Mozart Piano Concerto No. 21 might top Mozart Piano Concerto No. 20 whereas in the Piano Concerti list it was the other way around). I have no problem with that, but doubters would point to examples such as that to show that the lists are garbage. I know you would not care either.

I agree on widening sonatas to duets.


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## Truckload

I really like the TC lists and have been making active use of them. I hope you do Tone Poems or Overtures or you could combine the two and just say "Single Movement Orchestral Works."


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## mmsbls

Truckload said:


> I really like the TC lists and have been making active use of them. I hope you do Tone Poems or Overtures or you could combine the two and just say "Single Movement Orchestral Works."


I'm sure we will eventually get to those lists. There has been an active debate between having a Tone Poem list and a more general symphonic list excluding symphonies. Please give your feedback when that issue arises again.


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## science

mmsbls said:


> One issue would be that the period list would probably contradict individual lists in that different participants at different times would be voting so the order of certain works would not be consistent (e.g. in Classical, Mozart Piano Concerto No. 21 might top Mozart Piano Concerto No. 20 whereas in the Piano Concerti list it was the other way around). I have no problem with that, but doubters would point to examples such as that to show that the lists are garbage. I know you would not care either.


Yeah, that kind of thing is inevitable. The good side of it is that it effectively gives us a larger sample size.


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## peeyaj

I think we should have a list regarding art songs especially Lieder.. Art songs are underrated here in TC, and I think it would make a good progression in the TC lists (opera, symphony, chamber music, choral and songs). There are several members of TC such as Stlukes who are quite knowledgeable of Lieder... 

I vote Winterreise to be number 1!..


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## tdc

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> I'll host solo guitar of you want. Guitar is my main instrument.


I don't know how much interest there would be but I would definitely participate in such a list.


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## Cnote11

I'd be really interested in the solo guitar one.


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde

Maybe top 25 solo guitar works? Or 50?


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## science

Why not do all the solo non-keyboard works at once? It's something like a genre.


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## mmsbls

science said:


> Why not do all the solo non-keyboard works at once? It's something like a genre.


I think that is a very good idea. There are many major non-keyboard solo works, and we don't have a natural place for them. Personally, I would not participate in a guitar only list, but I would participate in a non-keyboard solo list.


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## science

The art song list seems like a good idea too, and one that I'd like to see. I couldn't participate in it at this time, but I'd love to see the results. I could contribute a bit more to a solo instrument list.


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## peeyaj

science said:


> The art song list seems like a good idea too, and one that I'd like to see. I couldn't participate in it at this time, but I'd love to see the results. I could contribute a bit more to a solo instrument list.


I would certainly participate. Art songs are the most glaring omission in TC lists.. We now have opera, symphony, concerto, choral music and chamber works.. Art songs and ballet are missing.


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## mmsbls

In the past several months several lists have been suggested. Here is a partial list.

Chamber Duo Works/Sonatas (Violin and piano, cello and piano, so on)
Orchestral Works besides Symphonies including Tone Poems, Suites, etc.
Concerti Grossi and Concerti for Multiple Instruments 
Ballet
Art Songs
Solo works of instruments beside keyboards
Works after 1950

Does anyone want to facilitate one of the lists above or suggest another list?


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## Dodecaplex

Fugal works?


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde

I reckon music after 1950.


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## science

If we did ballet, how many should we do? 50?

I'm willing to try managing a project like that. If there are no objections I will do a ballet project.


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## mmsbls

I wonder if 50 is a bit high for ballet. Some projects struggled toward the end because participation dropped off. It's easy to extend a list. Of course you can also shorten lists, but I think the former is preferable. I think you should just go for it and then ask people what the best starting number should be. I personally would start with 30.

I think it's also important to post a list of potential works so people can start thinking about and listening to them. There is a list of 400 works in the New York City Ballet repertory, but most of these I'd never consider as ballets. You'll also have to define ballet which might not be so easy.


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## Cnote11

yes, it is easy to expand. I'd love to see ballet since many of my favorite pieces are ballets.


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## An Die Freude

I think we should expand the symphony list. 272 operas, but only 150 symphonies?


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## Air

An Die Freude said:


> I think we should expand the symphony list. 272 operas, but only 150 symphonies?


Eventually, definitely; remember, this is a recurring project. Anyhow, not before we complete an art song, ballet, orchestral works, duo works, concerti for multiple instruments, works after 1950, etc. list.

For the next list, I vote either art song or orchestral works. I won't be able to facilitate it, seeing as to how busy I am, but I will participate to the best of my ability and be the mod-in-service to whatever TC List thread the community decides upon.


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde

I think we should expend the opera list.


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## mmsbls

Is someone willing to facilitate a list of their choice? I'd prefer to take a break from facilitation, but I'd be happy to do another list later. 

Personally, I'd love an orchestral list.


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## Trout

mmsbls said:


> Is someone willing to facilitate a list of their choice? I'd prefer to take a break from facilitation, but I'd be happy to do another list later.
> 
> Personally, I'd love an orchestral list.


I'd be willing to facilitate a list if no one else is.

And I think I could contribute a fair amount to either an orchestral or ballet list.


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## mmsbls

Trout said:


> I'd be willing to facilitate a list if no one else is.
> 
> And I think I could contribute a fair amount to either an orchestral or ballet list.


Thanks! Go for it!!!! I think there's enough interest for either.


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## Trout

mmsbls said:


> Thanks! Go for it!!!! I think there's enough interest for either.


I think science expressed an interest in facilitating a ballet list, so I guess I can do the orchestral one. I think we should wait to see which one has more interest at the moment before starting another list.


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## science

Trout said:


> I think science expressed an interest in facilitating a ballet list, so I guess I can do the orchestral one. I think we should wait to see which one has more interest at the moment before starting another list.


I changed my mind, daunted by the task of defining what is or is not a ballet. I want not to do that.


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## Trout

science said:


> I changed my mind, daunted by the task of defining what is or is not a ballet. I want not to do that.


Ok, so if the next list is the orchestral one, then it should be determined what qualifies for the list. Tone poems, of course, but what about works for string orchestra and ballets? I personally think works for string orchestra should be included and ballets or ballet suites should be excluded if we intend for a separate ballet list in the future.


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## science

Trout said:


> Ok, so if the next list is the orchestral one, then it should be determined what qualifies for the list. Tone poems, of course, but what about works for string orchestra and ballets? I personally think works for string orchestra should be included and ballets or ballet suites should be excluded if we intend for a separate ballet list in the future.


I cannot get much into the defining of genre-boundaries, and I will accept whatever the group decides.

But for what it's worth I'd lean toward including ballet suites and also overtures in the orchestral category. Especially overtures that don't actually have an opera!


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## mmsbls

I would place everything orchestral other than symphonies in this list. I would include suites (ballet or otherwise), overtures, tone poems, serenades, dances, etc. If people want to exclude a particular genre to have a separate list, that's fine, but I think defining those lists may be difficult.


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## Trout

Ok, so I think ballets should be included just because I don't think there are that many of them.

Next issue, how many works should be included on the list? Maybe start at 150 and extend it to 200+ if there is still enough participation and works that we feel should make the list?


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## Trout

Bumping this thread to see if there is anymore interest in an orchestral list.


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## mmsbls

I think there is interest, but people don't seem to respond to this thread as they did in the past. When I started the Piano Chamber List, not many people showed interest here, but we had 20 people post in the first round. I know there's always a concern that you might start a list and have too few people participate, but I think we've seen significant interest in tone poems before so if you expand that to more orchestral works there should be a reasonable turnout (hopefully).

Anyway, I'm certainly in.


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## science

Yep, I'd participate in a tone-poems and orchestral music project.


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> I think we should expend the opera list.


I think that is a good idea.


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde

I bump this thread to propose a TC top 50 classical guitar works. We haven't had many TC lists for a while and the sites getting kinda boring........anyone with me for a classical guitar list?


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## Op.123

What about a list of our favourite works rather than the most recommended??


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde

Burroughs said:


> What about a list of our favourite works rather than the most recommended??


That won't be very interesting. 

Classical guitar list? Anyone? Anyone?


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## Op.123

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> That won't be very interesting.
> 
> Classical guitar list? Anyone? Anyone?


Hmmm..... I don't really know much classical guitar music. I could do with some recommendations.


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde

Burroughs said:


> Hmmm..... I don't really know much classical guitar music. I could do with some recommendations.


Grand Overture for guitar by Giuliani is one of the very best, according to me.


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## Op.123

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> Grand Overture for guitar by Giuliani is one of the very best, according to me.


I am listening to the piece now, I like it. I think I list of classical guitar recommendations would be a very helpful, although I wouldn't be able to add very much. hopefully some others will see that this is a good idea and be able to give some support.


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## Op.123

Maybe a top 100 reccommended recordings list?


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## science

Burroughs said:


> Maybe a top 100 reccommended recordings list?


That'd be awesome, though I wouldn't want to stop at 100.

The issue is - what is a recording? Labels like DG rearrange and repackage things so much that it's become nearly impossible to find out how a thing was originally released.


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## StevenOBrien

Burroughs said:


> Maybe a top 100 reccommended recordings list?


That would be fantastic! Or maybe even go through the recommended works lists and recommend the Top 5 recordings for each one instead, as I think it might be a little too arbitrary to rank recordings of works from completely different genres.


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## science

StevenOBrien said:


> That would be fantastic! Or maybe even go through the recommended works lists and recommend the Top 5 recordings for each one instead, as I think it might be a little too arbitrary to rank recordings of works from completely different genres.


I intend, someday, to do something like this.


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## Nereffid

I think a list of recordings is a noble idea but would be several orders of magnitude harder to produce. I imagine most regular contributors to TC know all/most of the "standard repertoire" but would the same be true of "classic" recordings? Just from my own experience, looking at science's poll I know all the works but only 6 of the recordings (and only own 5). "Classics" don't represent how I built up my collection, so I simply wouldn't have the knowledge to contribute to any TC list of recordings. Perhaps other contributors would be in the same boat.


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## Ravndal

Lets start working on a top 150 keyboard list


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## mmsbls

Ranking the top recordings may be difficult. If you look at the The Talk Classical Most Recommended Opera DVD's List, you'll see that often the top recommended DVD had 1 or 2 votes out of 2 or 3 people who had seen that DVD. Many of us have heard all or most of the "top" works, but for great works there are many recordings. I'm not sure how many who participate in these lists will have heard enough recordings to make voting reasonable.


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## science

mmsbls said:


> Ranking the top recordings may be difficult. If you look at the The Talk Classical Most Recommended Opera DVD's List, you'll see that often the top recommended DVD had 1 or 2 votes out of 2 or 3 people who had seen that DVD. Many of us have heard all or most of the "top" works, but for great works there are many recordings. I'm not sure how many who participate in these lists will have heard enough recordings to make voting reasonable.


We ran into a similar problem on another site. Though we had more participation than the opera DVDs did here, it still seemed suspiciously like people were advocating most of the few recordings they happened to have heard, rather than having heard many and advocating a few.


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## Op.123

science said:


> We ran into a similar problem on another site. Though we had more participation than the opera DVDs did here, it still seemed suspiciously like people were advocating most of the few recordings they happened to have heard, rather than having heard many and advocating a few.


Still there are some popular works which people tend to agree on the best recordings. I noticed that the majority of people thought the best recording of Mendelssohn's violin concerto was by Milstein and I am sure that will apply to other pieces.


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## mmsbls

One problem with participation in such a list is that it's not easy to hear the suggested recordings. For all other lists I can almost always find a version of the work on youtube, Spotify, or possibly some other source. Finding a specific recording is much more difficult and would make voting impossible (or biased) for those who have not heard it.


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## Op.123

Also, we need an updated sticky for top recommends as I was looking at the most recommended keyboard concerti and they are in a completely different order than the keyboard concerti in the talk classical project 1001 - 1100. Or is the talk classical project different?


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## science

Burroughs said:


> Also, we need an updated sticky for top recommends as I was looking at the most recommended keyboard concerti and they are in a completely different order than the keyboard concerti in the talk classical project 1001 - 1100. Or is the talk classical project different?


Almost completely different set of people, plus a different methodology. Interesting and worthwhile to compare and contrast!


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## Nereffid

mmsbls said:


> One problem with participation in such a list is that it's not easy to hear the suggested recordings. For all other lists I can almost always find a version of the work on youtube, Spotify, or possibly some other source. Finding a specific recording is much more difficult and would make voting impossible (or biased) for those who have not heard it.


Plus there's a time factor. How long would one have to spend to feel qualified to pick the best recording of, say, a Beethoven symphony?


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## science

Hey guys.... 

About a week ago I was sittin' round and thought of a "greatest recordings ever" project and just impulsively started it. It was a spur of the moment thing, I'd put about 5 minutes of thought into it when I started it, and it hadn't occurred to me that I probably ought to consult with the community about it until a few hours after I'd done it. 

So I might've stepped on some virtual toes.... 

I don't know, of course; no one has said anything. But I certainly didn't mean to! 

In case I did, I apologize. 

However, I'm not sure how long it will last anyway. The second nominating round was considerably briefer than the first, so... perhaps in a few months most of us will have forgotten about this anyway, and if you have an idea for a different way to go about it our minds will have long been fresh and clear for that. But if it goes on for some time, then it works well enough!


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## Op.123

I think I is a good idea. keep it FGB,oingx.


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## edge

I wish every entry on every list had a "TC recommended recording: XXXX" That would really help in at least finding a good representation of that work. For those now using Rdio or Spotify, it's a really big help. The popular works have so many recordings. 

I don't know the process and have little to add but will look forward to the results.


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## HaydnBearstheClock

Trout said:


> I'll start a new thread on the matter. So far we have compiled 50 string "ensembles", 100 operas, 100 keyboard concerti, and 150 symphonies. All three lists are excellent, but the question is what should we do next? Some ideas I had in mind:
> -Chamber; a large genre, but a list that I think everyone is able to contribute to.
> -Sonatas; a smaller category than chamber and might have less participation
> -Tone Poems; difficult to define, but manageable
> -Concerti (for all instruments); also a large genre of music, but there are just so many masterpieces for wind concerti that deserve to be mentioned (this can be with or without the keyboard concerti that has already been listed)
> -Choral; pretty straightforward and probably my first choice of the five
> 
> Your thoughts? Should we keep going with these lists or just stop while we still have our sanity?


Personally, I have a problem with such lists because I'm not as familiar with later composers as some on this forum, so I can't really decide. I've been focussing mainly on Baroque to romanticism and am most familiar with Haydn's music, which doesn't seem to be up there too much.


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## PetrB

I think the TC lists are virtually useless, in that they near identically replicate already existing, published and readily available lists.

If the collective TCmembership really wanted to serve, i.e. provide lists for those who want them, I would think a few posted links to those already existing, and / or a source list of like lists -- with a supplement of perhaps other excellent pieces less 'top popular' provided by TC members -- might fulfill that function.

I realize (don't feel, but realize) that many people think making up the lists and polls is a kind of fun, so for the sake of fun, then, why not?

But for practicality, or providing a useful service of information, they're near 100% redundant.


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## science

PetrB said:


> I think the TC lists are virtually useless, in that they near identically replicate already existing, published and readily available lists.
> 
> If the collective TCmembership really wanted to serve, i.e. provide lists for those who want them, I would think a few posted links to those already existing, and / or a source list of like lists -- with a supplement of perhaps other excellent pieces less 'top popular' provided by TC members -- might fulfill that function.
> 
> I realize (don't feel, but realize) that many people think making up the lists and polls is a kind of fun, so for the sake of fun, then, why not?
> 
> But for practicality, or providing a useful service of information, they're near 100% redundant.


What is an example of something to which the talkclassical list is most nearly redundant? I'd love to know! I'd never have started that (or the original project like it) if I'd known.

Show me a list that:

- is not broken down by genre or era or anything like that;
- has some kind of prioritization, if not actually ranked that could be ok but at least some sort of prioritization - there should be, say, at least 5 or so tiers;
- is larger than, let's say, 250 works (the current list is up around 1250, so something 1/5 as long might not actually count as "redundant," but I figure I should be generous).

I bet you can't! But this is a bet I'd love to lose because losing would give me DATA! The one thing that is so hard to find....


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## edge

I love the TC lists. I love discussing the lists. I love the "What's your favorite...?" threads. 

I love to hear what people on this list feel are the greatest because I think that this is a more well-informed and enlightened group than your general concert-going public and that's where I want to go to discover new music.


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## Oskaar

I find them very usefull! And as I understand there is a process that activates the users. That is very good. But some people must be negative and grumphy. Keep up the good work, TC-list staff! For people that want to explore, the lists are fine! 

In the future I would appreciate lists of best recordings on each work, let us say 5 for each work, nominated in a prosess with the users. Taste are of course different, and changes for each user. But it will be a fun thing to do, and people must take it for what it is...Tc-users taste at the moment.


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