# Bailers and Grungers



## wagner4evr (Jul 10, 2010)

I was wondering if I could get everyone's take on a couple things that have been bothering us about opera attendees for quite a while. First, we've seen a major degeneration in people's attire. I still remember (and miss) when every man was either in a tuxedo or suit, and women in long gowns and furs. Now I'm not advocating going back to that, but when I see cutoff jeans, muddy tennis shoes, and fishing vests, my nerves begin to really grate. I was always taught that dress is more than your own personal comfort, it communicates your respect about/to someone else. Needless to say, opera performers deserve every ounce of ours. Second, what's with those people who elbow their way out of your aisle at the finale (and don't even bother to applaud but want you move so they can get 45 seconds ahead of traffic)? I wrote about these in more detail/humor on my website, but I was curious about the music community's thoughts on this. Maybe it's just me, but it's beginning to burn us up.


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

When was the long gown/fur thing? Must have been before when I started attending opera in the 80s (at Covent garden). I used to go straight from work so my attire was usually a business suit with shoulders pads about 6 feet across. I'm amazed I fitted into the chairs.

I must add I wouldn't wear anyone's fur but my own.


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## karenpat (Jan 16, 2009)

When I'm at the opera house in Oslo I think it's fun to see what people are wearing. Usually you get everything from track suits (!) to gala outfits. I'm somewhere in between - I always wear a dress though.


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## BalloinMaschera (Apr 4, 2011)

I don't particularly think it matters... I don't think the performance will be any different because of what the audience members are wearing, or not wearing...

It's more important that your ability to appreciate the performance be somewhat sophisticated, than your attire.


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## Aksel (Dec 3, 2010)

When I go to the opera (which is just about never, but anyways), I do dress a bit nicer than when I'm going to school. I don't wear a suit, but I try to look at least somewhat presentable.

I don't think what people wear to the opera (or concerts for that matter) is that important, but I do think that people should at least try to dress up a little.


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## sospiro (Apr 3, 2010)

It's one of the few occasions now when people can dress up & I dress a bit smarter than work. (My job means I have to dress formally at all times). But this is just a personal thing - I don't think anyone is less of an opera lover if they don't dress up.

How they behave while they're watching is much more important.


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## TxllxT (Mar 2, 2011)

In Prague and Vienna the tourists have spoiled the old traditions. I remember seeing the Prague Underground filling up with young tuxedo penguins, because the classic dance lessons were over and the young men were escorting the young ladies homewards in the evening.


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

I think I can safely say that I'm a huge opera lover - if you stick around you'll believe me - welcome to the forum, by the way.
I don't dress up when I go to the opera.
I think that what matters is, like Natalie said one of these days, that I'm clean and silent.


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## sospiro (Apr 3, 2010)

Almaviva said:


> I think that what matters is, like Natalie said one of these days, that I'm clean and silent.


Clean eh? You won't dare present yourself to us smelling of fish then. You've been rumbled my boy - the fish thing was just a ruse to make me vote for La Bellissima.


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## Sieglinde (Oct 25, 2009)

I can't stand people who don't dress up. Even if you come from work, you can put on a better trousers/skirt and blouse/shirt. In open-air it's ok to dress warm and comfortable rather than pretty, but in opera houses I wear a little black dress at MINIMUM, and in a more special performance, evening dress or something like this or this.


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## wagner4evr (Jul 10, 2010)

Thanks, everyone. Looks like real music people respect the event a lot more than what I'm seeing at the opera lately. I guess I'm old school--where it dress does communicate something. I always found it ironic that you'd be expected to dress up in formal restaurants, proms, etc., but not feel at least some obligation to look presentable for vocal gods. The good thing is that behavior hasn't changed much.

:tiphat:


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## Aramis (Mar 1, 2009)

I would like to go to opera dressed in cookie monster custome.


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## wagner4evr (Jul 10, 2010)

Not sure if this was serious, but if so can you bring yourself and all like-minded friends with you to Seattle ;-)



Sieglinde said:


> I can't stand people who don't dress up. Even if you come from work, you can put on a better trousers/skirt and blouse/shirt. In open-air it's ok to dress warm and comfortable rather than pretty, but in opera houses I wear a little black dress at MINIMUM, and in a more special performance, evening dress or something like this or this.


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## wagner4evr (Jul 10, 2010)

"I would like to go to opera dressed in cookie monster custome." 




Actually, a couple came in full 18th century regalia at the last Mozart opera. It was sooooo cool. Funny thing was, it didn't look garish and costumey. Damn things looked real :-0


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

sospiro said:


> Clean eh? You won't dare present yourself to us smelling of fish then. You've been rumbled my boy - the fish thing was just a ruse to make me vote for La Bellissima.


Bronze fish statues don't smell.


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## sospiro (Apr 3, 2010)

Almaviva said:


> Bronze fish statues don't smell.


OK I give in, but you can't bring bronze fish statues through airports in UK so you'll have to buy one while you're here.


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

sospiro said:


> OK I give in, but you can't bring bronze fish statues through airports in UK so you'll have to buy one while you're here.


Will do. A very heavy one.:devil: I'm considering several models.


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## MAuer (Feb 6, 2011)

I'm rather "old school" on this issue myself. I don't expect to see everyone in black tie (and the women's equivalent), but I also don't think it's unreasonable for those attending an opera performance to make an effort to dress up a little and wear business attire. Dear Miss Manners (a.k.a. Judith Martin) wrote entire columns on the symbolism of "serious dressing" and why dressing up for special occasions does indeed matter. Most of our employers are certainly under the impression that attire matters, as are managers of "fine dining" restaurants. The opening performance of our local opera company's summer season is two weeks from today, and I plan to dress formally.


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## FragendeFrau (May 30, 2011)

This reminds me a lot of some of the complaints at church. We are so lucky to be growing instead of shrinking, with lots of young families with young children. But the old guard complain about the noise and disruption--a nice problem to have! 

Surely the important point is that people are attending with pleasure, no matter their attire? No one prevents you from dressing as formally as you like, and no one turns away a student on a backpacking trip who is staying in a hostel with limited clothing choices. I say more power to them both!

I wish people would dress up more for airline flights, as they did in my childhood, especially since quarters are so close now! But that will not change until flying is again the preserve of the middle-class and rich, and I admit to relief to being able to wear neat attire that still would allow me to escape the plane in an emergency--and handle my bags with ease, rather than wearing stiletto heels and a pencil skirt.


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

My notorious seat-companion at the last opera I attended, whose behaviour has left me scarred for life, was far more dressed up than me, including heavy make-up and scent, high heels and a showy little dress. This did not stop her texting, drinking, eating, rummaging constantly in her bag, and smelling stale. 

My criteria for audiences are firmly based on what they do, not the way they are dressed. I'd have been perfectly happy to sit next to a freshly-washed young person in jeans and sneakers if s/he had been quiet, still and unlit.


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## MAuer (Feb 6, 2011)

I wonder if any of the major festivals, such as those at Bayreuth and Salzburg, have dress codes.


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## FragendeFrau (May 30, 2011)

Bayreuth dress code, as observed last year: http://intermezzo.typepad.com/intermezzo/2010/08/bayreuth-dress.html

Salzburg Festival dress code, as observed 2008: http://mostlyopera.blogspot.com/2008/08/salzburg-festival-audiences-and-dress.html


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

mamascarlatti said:


> My notorious seat-companion at the last opera I attended, whose behaviour has left me scarred for life, was far more dressed up than me, including heavy make-up and scent, high heels and a showy little dress. This did not stop her texting, drinking, eating, rummaging constantly in her bag, and smelling stale.
> 
> My criteria for audiences are firmly based on what they do, not the way they are dressed. I'd have been perfectly happy to sit next to a freshly-washed young person in jeans and sneakers if s/he had been quiet, still and unlit.


My opinion exactly.
I have to wear formal attire at work.
When I go to the opera, it's my leisure time and my favorite hobby / biggest interest. It's a time *for me,* I want to be comfortable and relaxed, and I couldn't care less about what other patrons think of my attire.
Sometimes I travel regionally to attend opera. It involves a significant amount of driving, parking, walking, sometimes under high heat in my Southern state. I have no problem whatsoever with wearing sneakers, jeans, and a T-shirt. Like I said, I'll be clean, silent, and will do my best not to disturb my seat neighbors. I think they're lucky to have me as their seat neighbor even though I may be wearing casual clothes, as opposed to the neighbors from hell we've mentioned in other recent threads, regardless of how dressed up these hellish neighbors might be.
If I go to a local evening (not matinée) opera performance, I can perfectly dress up if I feel like it (and I do, sometimes) - I mean, some nice social clothes - but I won't go as far as wearing a suit and tie (much less a tux - I do own one, but I very very rarely wear it).
When I attend opera, I'm totally absorbed by and respectful of the material - I will have done my homework, and will be fully cognitively prepared for the performance. I will enthusiastically applaud good performances, and will discreetly applaud bad ones (I never boo). I will be able to discuss the performance with anyone (e.g. a seat neighbor, known to me or a stranger) who cares to talk to me about it. But I'm not there to show off my nice clothes. I'm there for the music and staging/acting. I'm there for the art form, not for a fashion show.
Pardon me if I'm a little strong about it. But if I were to encounter a person there who looked down on me - a savvy, respectful operagoer - because I came from afar, it's hot, and I chose to dress comfortably - I'd think that the person in question would be demonstrating a lot of shallowness.
What I can't stand, is someone who dresses up to go to the opera but doesn't have a clue about the art form, is distracted, yawning, making noise, laughing out loud, and being generally obnoxious. This is a lot more disrespectful than being casually dressed after 3 hours of driving under 95 degrees of heat.


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

Almaviva said:


> My opinion exactly.
> I have to wear formal attire at work.
> When I go to the opera, it's my leisure time and my favorite hobby / biggest interest. It's a time *for me,* I want to be comfortable and relaxed, and I couldn't care less about what other patrons think of my attire.
> Sometimes I travel regionally to attend opera. It involves a significant amount of driving, parking, walking, sometimes under high heat in my Southern state. I have no problem whatsoever with wearing sneakers, jeans, and a T-shirt. Like I said, I'll be clean, silent, and will do my best not to disturb my seat neighbors. I think they're lucky to have me as their seat neighbor even though I may be wearing casual clothes, as opposed to the neighbors from hell we've mentioned in other recent threads, regardless of how dressed up these hellish neighbors might be.
> ...


There you are Alma, my perfect seat-companion:tiphat:.


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

Almaviva said:


> My opinion exactly.
> I have to wear formal attire at work.
> When I go to the opera, it's my leisure time and my favorite hobby / biggest interest. It's a time *for me,* I want to be comfortable and relaxed, and I couldn't care less about what other patrons think of my attire.
> Sometimes I travel regionally to attend opera. It involves a significant amount of driving, parking, walking, sometimes under high heat in my Southern state. I have no problem whatsoever with wearing sneakers, jeans, and a T-shirt. Like I said, I'll be clean, silent, and will do my best not to disturb my seat neighbors. I think they're lucky to have me as their seat neighbor even though I may be wearing casual clothes, as opposed to the neighbors from hell we've mentioned in other recent threads, regardless of how dressed up these hellish neighbors might be.
> ...


I gave an usher this earful once.
He told me to put my clothes back on, or he's calling the police.


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## kv466 (May 18, 2011)

If anything, I see this as something very positive in the aspect that someone who has no idea about these silly mental confines of dress and 'respect' feels compelled to go out and experience something as grandiose as an opera is...that these folks who have perhaps never delved in such tastes decide to go out and just enjoy something...music goes so far beyond the idea of what people should or should not wear...it has nothing at all to do with it...as for the people leaving early and bumping you on their way out...from my experience, those are probably the folks that are dressed 'appropriately' and in some sad cases do not have the slightest idea of what it really is to love the music and are just there to be there and be seen...little black dress, eh...haha...anyone who truly loves this is there to go out of the body and into a state so far from anything social...ahhh, how sweet the music is


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## MAuer (Feb 6, 2011)

mcamacho said:


> Are we reeeaaally being serious here?...what a sad, provincial view...if anything, I see this as something very positive in the aspect that someone who has no idea about these silly mental confines of dress and 'respect' feels compelled to go out and experience something as grandiose as an opera is...that these folks who have perhaps never delved in such tastes decide to go out and just enjoy something...music goes so far beyond the idea of what people should or should not wear...it has nothing at all to do with it...as for the people leaving early and bumping you on their way out...from my experience, those are probably the folks that are dressed 'appropriately' and in some sad cases do not have the slightest idea of what it really is to love the music and are just there to be there and be seen...little black dress, eh...haha...anyone who truly loves this is there to go out of the body and into a state so far from anything social...ahhh, how sweet the music is


I've given myself an entire day to cool off before responding to this post . . . thought perhaps I'd just let it pass.

*as for the people leaving early and bumping you on their way out...from my experience, those are probably the folks that are dressed 'appropriately' and in some sad cases do not have the slightest idea of what it really is to love the music and are just there to be there and be seen...little black dress*

I've never really paid any attention to what these early bolters are wearing. But unless "your experience" includes observations of these "bolters"' attire from a representative sampling of opera houses (something I'm inclined to doubt), this is nothing more than unfounded supposition.
And unless you are capable of mind-reading, you have no idea what the thoughts and feelings or motivation of other audience members may be -- however they may be dressed.


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## Polednice (Sep 13, 2009)

In defense of mcamacho, I think it's fair to deride the sincerity of the question because, really, having a problem with others' attire at a concert is antiquated at absolute best, but, more typically, just petty and stuck-up. It's horribly elitist and exclusivist to expect any kind of dress from other concert-goers - what if someone can't afford a decent suit, let alone a tux? Should they be banned from attending, despite genuine passion for the music to be performed?

I imagine some people might say: "Well that's a different matter if someone is entirely in love with the music but is too poor to afford the lavish dress others wear at every opportunity." But how is this different from other 'badly dressed' members of the audience? The whole notion is just absolutely steeped in prejudice that if someone wears short torn jeans or something revealing, that they are therefore bad people, annoying people, or people who don't really care about the music. Ridiculous. They paid to get into the concert, so they have every right to enjoy the music as much as the smug person sat next to them looking down their nose at them.

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P.S. Don't be mad at everyone who barges their way out! Because I live a cultural s**thole, I have to travel by train to get to any decent concerts, but this often means I have to leave a concert at the earliest possible moment so as not to miss the last return train of the evening. Yes, it's annoying, but don't judge everyone who leaves promptly.


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## sospiro (Apr 3, 2010)

Ref - bolting, after a performance I like to stay in my seat as long as possible to try & retain in my mind the atmosphere & the magic.

Earlier this year I had to leave to catch my train just as the curtain calls began (industrial action by the rail company meant the last two trains had been cancelled) & I felt awful & felt as if I'd insulted the singers especially the guy who came out first (David Soar). I still feel bad about it & if I ever meet him I will apologise & explain.


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## AmericanGesamtkunstwerk (May 9, 2011)

I think its a generational thing. does anyone shine their shoes quite like their father did?


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## regressivetransphobe (May 16, 2011)

Yeah it really pisses me off when people make decisions that don't affect me at all. What are they doing, trying to enjoy the music or something? 

Don't they know sterility and uniformity are the highest virtues?


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