# Minimalism and pop music



## sonoio (Nov 13, 2015)

Hi everyone!
I'm a new user. I'm a music student from Italy, and this winter I'm going to take my degree in popular music. However, I'm a big fan of classical music too, so I'm writing my final thesis studying the relationship between minimalism and popular music. 

I find this forum very interesting and competent, so I wonder if you could help me in my work!
I'd be very glad if you can make a list of popular (pop, rock etc.) songs influenced by minimal music, and of minimal composition influenced by pop music (ex. Symphony n.1 and n2 by Philip Glass). 

This could be a good discussion starting point too 

Thank you, and sorry for my english! 
Davide


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

The Robert Fripp and Brian Eno collaborations are a good place to start:

No Pussyfooting, 1973
Evening Star, 1975


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

Peter Gabriel - San Jacinto (especially in the live version from PG plays live).


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## Epilogue (Sep 20, 2015)

The Theater of Eternal Music, "Day of Niagara" (one possible example among others) ---> The Velvet Underground, "Heroin"

Terry Riley, keyboard study No. 1 ---> The Who, "Baba O'Riley"

Terry Riley, "Rainbow in Curved Air" ---> Tangerine Dream, "Phaedra" and most of what followed; Klaus Schulze, "Bayreuth Return"

And in the more superficial line of merely stealing tunes: 

William Duckworth, The Time Curve Preludes, No. 12 ---> Coldplay, "'Til Kingdom Come"

Philip Glass, "Metamorphosis 1" ---> Adele, "Turning Tables"


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## Nereffid (Feb 6, 2013)

Don't forget the so-called "indie classical". http://pitchfork.com/features/articles/8778-indie-classical/


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## Morimur (Jan 23, 2014)

Nereffid said:


> Don't forget the so-called "indie classical". http://pitchfork.com/features/articles/8778-indie-classical/


Lawd - I DETEST pitchfork with a passion.


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## Nereffid (Feb 6, 2013)

Morimur said:


> Lawd - I DETEST pitchfork with a passion.


Thanks for sharing! :cheers:


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## GreenMamba (Oct 14, 2012)

The Talking Heads song Found A Job has an outro which is influenced by minimalist composers (or so David Byrne says on the Stop Making Sense audio track).

The coda of Paul Simon's Late Great Johnny Ace was written by Philip Glass.


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## ArtMusic (Jan 5, 2013)

Many of the love songs with a simple line and beat can considered "minimalism" but with more emotional response from listeners.


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## sonoio (Nov 13, 2015)

Thank you guys, your help and your competence is amazing. I will check all your entries. I'm looking mostly to songs with an explicit link to minimalism, like the Talking Heads' song suggested by Green Mamba, where the author reveals his influences.

I know most pop songs could be related to minimalism due to the repetition and the simplicity of the material, but I found that this is caused by the common compositional devices (ex. sequencer and looping machine), instead of an arbitrary aesthetic choice.


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

I think that a lot of popular music was minimalism before minimalism. After all if you get a song based on the simple hypnotic repetition of two-three chords over and over and a simple melody with a form like verse-chorus-verse-chorus to me it's already something very close to the idea of minimalism.
Anyway if you're looking for something that sounds similar to the music of minimalist composers:





Milton Nascimento - Anima





Dead Can Dance - Ulysses





Brian Eno - The true wheel





Franco Battiato - Stranizza d'amuri

Soft Machine - Out-bloody-rageous





Picchio dal pozzo - Seppia





Pierrot Lunaire - Gudrun


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## Morimur (Jan 23, 2014)

Minimalism = Can't really write music so I am just gonna play the same same note ad nauseum.


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## isorhythm (Jan 2, 2015)

ArtMusic said:


> Many of the love songs with a simple line and beat can considered "minimalism" but with more emotional response from listeners.


Can you give some examples of these love songs?


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## sonoio (Nov 13, 2015)

thank you norman bates, picchio dal pozzo and battiato are amazing entries. 

on the other side, minimal composer that used pop material for their works, i found Glass symphonies 1 and 4 form two David Bowie' albums; "Radiorewrite" by steve Reich from radiohead's songs; John Adams' "I was looking..." filled with blues and rock music.


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## Epilogue (Sep 20, 2015)

Minimalist composer using pop material:

Terry Riley, "You're No Good"


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## Stirling (Nov 18, 2015)

http://www.theshelf.com/blogger-roundups/2015/1/10/10-minimalist-style-bloggers-to-follow


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## Simon Moon (Oct 10, 2013)

American progressive band, Birdsongs of he Mesozoic incorporate quite a bit of minimalism. They loosely fall under the 'avant-prog' subgenre. Their music is described as "an eclectic blend of rock, avant-garde noise, punk, classical, minimalist and free-form music with hypnotic electronic sequences."

King Crimson on their 1981 release, 'Discipline' had some minimalism influences. Their follow up, 'Beat', to a lesser extent, has some minimalism influences.

I would say that a good number of the German experimental electronic artists of the 70's were probably influenced by minimalism. Klaus Schulz, Tangerine Dream, Ash Ra Temple might be of interest. Many of the 'Kraut Rock' bands, Faust for example are also worth checking out.

David Bowie and Brian Eno's 'Berlin Trilogy' (Low, Heroes, Lodger) are other example. Here is what Philip Glass had to say concerning 'Low':

*"a work of genius" in 1992, when he used it as the basis for his Symphony No. 1 "Low"; subsequently, Glass used Bowie's next album as the basis for his 1996 Symphony No. 4 "Heroes". Glass has praised Bowie's gift for creating "fairly complex pieces of music, masquerading as simple pieces".*

The so called 'post rock' bands are said to be influenced by minimalism. 'Godspeed You! Black Emperor' are often sited, but I am sure there are more.


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## Epilogue (Sep 20, 2015)

Simon Moon said:


> David Bowie and Brian Eno's 'Berlin Trilogy' (Low, Heroes, Lodger) are other example.


And therefore, of course, so are Brian Eno's _Here Come the Warm Jets_, _Taking Tiger Mountain_, _Another Green World_, and _Before and After Science_ and the first two Roxy Music albums, except they're better (in the case of Eno's solo albums, _much_ better).


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## Morimur (Jan 23, 2014)

Simon Moon said:


> The so called 'post rock' bands are said to be influenced by minimalism. 'Godspeed You! Black Emperor' are often sited, but I am sure there are more.


'Godspeed You! Black Emperor' is a pop band. All these crummy hipster bands suffer from delusions of grandeur.


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## isorhythm (Jan 2, 2015)

Morimur said:


> 'Godspeed You! Black Emperor' is a pop band. All these crummy hipster bands suffer from delusions of grandeur.


Tell me about it. I remember dudes at my college radio station getting incredibly excited about the most banal pop/rock music you can imagine because it deviated _ever so slightly_ from the standard format.

I'll take an honest pop song over that tedious middlebrow NPR stuff any day.


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## Guest (Nov 18, 2015)

What's NPR please?


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## Dim7 (Apr 24, 2009)

isorhythm said:


> Tell me about it. I remember dudes at my college radio station getting incredibly excited about the most banal pop/rock music you can imagine because it deviated _ever so slightly_ from the standard format.
> 
> I'll take an honest pop song over that tedious middlebrow NPR stuff any day.


Nothing bad about middlebrow stuff, but it's indeed funny how they feel superior to average pop music listeners based on such small differences. Also applies to a lot of metalheads, they really like to bash on "simple formulaic mainstream pop". While some metal is significantly more complex than average pop music, a lot of it is just same thing basically with some dull power chord riffs and mindless shred guitar solo added. Not any more sophisticated really. Plus some of it doesn't even have real singing with an actual melody.


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## isorhythm (Jan 2, 2015)

dogen said:


> What's NPR please?


National Public Radio in the U.S. (I believe Morimur is also American and didn't think anyone else would notice that post - I usually do try to avoid U.S.-centrism in my posts here!)


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## Strange Magic (Sep 14, 2015)

It's cool that after David Bowie came out with _Low_, Nick Lowe issued his release _Bowi_. The missing "e"s have never been located.


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## Rapide (Oct 11, 2011)

Minimalism has nothing to do with pop music.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

As to repetition, I see more influence of non-Western musics, like Reich and his travels to Africa, Terry Riley's studies with Pran Nath, and Phil Glass' studies with Ravi Shankar.

I don't see this approach of popular/minimalism as very credible, on a musical level.

The parallels with popular music are not the music itself, but rather the social mechanism which allowed 
minimalism to arise and survive, "by any means necessary," as it was a new experimental form which was set apart from "the academy" as it was established. 

Minimalism emerged no thanks to the "academic" music establishment, but the New York art/loft scene; small ensembles, functioning with PA systems, playing in various lofts, museums, etc, much like touring rock bands; Glass' early recordings, done with small groups overdubbing ( a pop technique), electric organs, loud sound systems. No Carnegie Hall gigs yet.

Of course, we now see that Minimalism had always ultimately aspired to be a "classical" serious form (as opposed to being a pop form) as is now obvious: Phil Glass' Symphonies and operas, Terry Riley's string quartet writing and piano recitals, and Reich's expanding forms and ensembles.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

dogen said:


> What's NPR please?


National Public Radio.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

isorhythm said:


> National Public Radio in the U.S. (I believe Morimur is also American and didn't think anyone else would notice that post - I usually do try to avoid U.S.-centrism in my posts here!)


OK, don't expect me to show up in your defense when the Brits gang up on you.


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## Jos (Oct 14, 2013)

"Minimal" in electronic dance music had a few, very few, interesting moments.
Ritchie Hawtin did one or two nice "albums" a long time ago. After that things went to his head and it became so pretentious you wouldn't believe it. Journalists called him a genius no less, and the last recent thing I heard was two years ago. Absolutely insufferable, thankfully the cd went straight to the bargainbin.


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## DeepR (Apr 13, 2012)

Simon Moon said:


> I would say that a good number of the German experimental electronic artists of the 70's were probably influenced by minimalism. Klaus Schulz, Tangerine Dream, Ash Ra Temple might be of interest.


To some degree I think so yes. Their influences were diverse, also being influenced by Pink Floyd and the likes. Their music started out as experimental rock more than anything, later it became more heavily electronic. They each paved their own ways and had a big influence on later generations of electronic artists across various genres. Their 1970s stuff is really good but later it went downhill.


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## sonoio (Nov 13, 2015)

Rapide said:


> Minimalism has nothing to do with pop music.


"We have, and I guess myself and others in my generation, have been helpful in restoring the normalcy of having a dialogue between classical music and popular music, which was the norm." STEVE REICH

I'm not assuming that minimalism is strictly related to popular music, I'm saying that for some aspects minimalism and popular music shared some materials, in one direction or another, and that could be interesting to discover when and how this happened.

Again, thank you so much to everyone writing in this thread. My list of pieces is growing.


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

another example of minimalism applied to pop music:
Sufjan Stevens - The Predatory Wasp of the Palisades Is Out to Get Us!


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

Well, maybe there is some sort of superficial connection, but we need to say why, not just post links. 

Like "pop" art, which dealt with surfaces and appearances, minimalism is similar in that it is all "surface processes" and nothing is "hidden" beneath the surface, as in serial music.

The simplicity of minimalism makes it accessible to pop listeners. 

The repetition of minimalism makes it similar to repetitive pop music.

Minimalism has "world" music influences, so it is global, not Euro-centric or Germanic, which suits Steve Reich just fine. Reich called the Second Viennese music "creepy." Minmalism is a populist music, which the common man can relate to.


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

millionrainbows said:


> Well, maybe there is some sort of superficial connection, but we need to say why, not just post links.


Do you really need an explaination? The connection is far more than superficial in many pieces, it's exactly the same kind of rhytmic counterpoint, the phasing that you find in the music of minimalist composers (who were also often openly seen as a infleunce).


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

I just don't see the connection as being of any musical significance, especially as it is a generalization. Why do you want to connect pop and minimalism? 

To me, it discourages the view that minimalism is part of the classical tradition, and it seems that minimalism has had an uphill battle to be considered high art, as classicism is. 

King Crimson I can understand, as British "Art Rock" has always aligned itself with CM, but to compare it with most other pop music I see as a dubious pursuit.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

norman bates said:


> I think that a lot of popular music was minimalism before minimalism. After all if you get a song based on the simple hypnotic repetition of two-three chords over and over and a simple melody with a form like verse-chorus-verse-chorus to me it's already something very close to the idea of minimalism.


This is too superficial of a comparison for my taste. Steve Reich went to Africa to study drumming, but I would much rather extrapolate some other aspect, such as ensemble playing and communication, than compare his music to that. I think it's OK to pursue this sort of thing on a superficial level, but to say that "Heroin" by the Velvet Underground is some variety of "minimalism" is a large stretch, and is in the end a rather useless comparison. When I want to listen to "Heroin," it is for completely different reasons than listening to Philip Glass.

With the exception of the King Crimson you mentioned, most pop music does not exhibit the same discipline (pun intended) as minimalism. The Steve Reich and Philip Glass ensembles are highly trained and very disciplined.

I'd rather reverse the entire thread idea, and compare minimalism to classical music, in order to upgrade the bad rap minimalism seems to get in CM circles. Sure, Terry Riley did an album with John Cale, but I consider John Cale to be of almost classical caliber, as I do Robert Fripp, in terms of technique and composition.


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

millionrainbows said:


> This is too superficial of a comparison for my taste. Steve Reich went to Africa to study drumming, but I would much rather extrapolate some other aspect, such as ensemble playing and communication, than compare his music to that. I think it's OK to pursue this sort of thing on a superficial level, but to say that "Heroin" by the Velvet Underground is some variety of "minimalism" is a large stretch, and is in the end a rather useless comparison. When I want to listen to "Heroin," it is for completely different reasons than listening to Philip Glass.
> 
> With the exception of the King Crimson you mentioned, most pop music does not exhibit the same discipline (pun intended) as minimalism. The Steve Reich and Philip Glass ensembles are highly trained and very disciplined.
> 
> I'd rather reverse the entire thread idea, and compare minimalism to classical music, in order to upgrade the bad rap minimalism seems to get in CM circles. Sure, Terry Riley did an album with John Cale, but I consider John Cale to be of almost classical caliber, as I do Robert Fripp, in terms of technique and composition.


I haven't mentioned King Crimson! I've posted many pieces but definitely not them (and I would not even think of them).
I've posted songs influnced by the music of Riley and Reich and if you listen those pieces you would see immediately that the connection is clear.
I mean:





Anyway talking of the Velvet underground that's clearly a completely different kind of minimalism (but after all minimalism wasn't all about phasing, if you take the drone stuff for instance it often sounds very different).


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## Guest (Dec 16, 2015)

millionrainbows said:


> To me, it discourages the view that minimalism is part of the classical tradition, and it seems that minimalism has had an uphill battle to be considered high art, as classicism is.


"High art"? I wonder if Steve Reich worries about how his work is classified and whether it qualifies as 'high art'. I somehow doubt it, though listeners might feel the need to justify their tastes.

How about artists like The Field?


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## isorhythm (Jan 2, 2015)

Robert Fink links minimalism to disco and later electronic dance music in his book _Repeating Ourselves American Minimal Music as Cultural Practice_. But I only skimmed it in a bookstore so I can't really elaborate. :/ I thought it was persuasive though.

How about this? It samples Reich's _Electric Counterpoint_.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

norman bates said:


> I haven't mentioned King Crimson! I've posted many pieces but definitely not them (and I would not even think of them).


I know; Simon Moon mentioned it in post # 17.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

MacLeod said:


> "High art"? I wonder if Steve Reich worries about how his work is classified and whether it qualifies as 'high art'.


Probably not in the way you are implying that I mean, but "high art" in that it arose out of purely artistic concerns, in an art arena. Steve Reich was not in LA trying to get his rock group signed; he was in New York or wherever, creating his art.



> I somehow doubt it, though listeners might feel the need to justify their tastes.


I want it justified in the public arena, of which this forum is a part. I know the difference, and I bought the Columbia Masterworks vinyl LP of "Violin Phase" and "It's Gonna Rain" with Paul Zukofsky playing violin when it came out in 1974.


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## ArtMusic (Jan 5, 2013)

millionrainbows said:


> The simplicity of minimalism makes it accessible to pop listeners.
> 
> The repetition of minimalism makes it similar to repetitive pop music.
> 
> ... Minmalism is a populist music, which the common man can relate to.


Agree entirely. Minimalism is another direction of composed music in the mid-20th century that the avant-garde composers then thought it worth developing.


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## Guest (Dec 17, 2015)

millionrainbows said:


> Probably not in the way you are implying that I mean


If I'm implying the wrong thing, you might put me right before I go on to say that I doubt Reich was striving for 'high art', even if he wasn't looking to get his rock group signed (??)


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## Flamme (Dec 30, 2012)

isorhythm said:


> Robert Fink links minimalism to disco and later electronic dance music in his book _Repeating Ourselves American Minimal Music as Cultural Practice_. But I only skimmed it in a bookstore so I can't really elaborate. :/ I thought it was persuasive though.
> 
> How about this? It samples Reich's _Electric Counterpoint_.


Little fluffy clouds are based on classical minimalism??? I heard the ''song'' or instrumental couple of months ago and i felt its was very sothing and peaceful maybe because classical roots.


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## Simon Moon (Oct 10, 2013)

millionrainbows said:


> I know; Simon Moon mentioned it in post # 17.


Yes. And I was referring almost exclusively to the 1981 album, "Discipline".

And I stand by that assessment.

All About Jazz says this about "Frame By Frame",

"...interlocking guitar parts of "Frame By Frame," where Fripp and Belew begin in unison but, with one of them then dropping one beat from the 14-note pattern, ultimately diverging into two lines that gradually split apart, only to gradually rejoin in unison after 26 bars-of seven, that is-with the kind of mathematical precision *clearly informed by gamelan, by way of minimalist composer Steve Reich.*"


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

Simon Moon said:


> Yes. And I was referring almost exclusively to the 1981 album, "Discipline".
> 
> And I stand by that assessment.
> 
> ...


I agree, and this also reinforces my point that minimalism has more to do with world music than with pop.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

MacLeod said:


> If I'm implying the wrong thing, you might put me right before I go on to say that I doubt Reich was striving for 'high art', even if he wasn't looking to get his rock group signed (??)


In a way, it sounds like you are saying that Steve Reich is not a serious artist. He meets all of my criteria.

You must think "high art" means something other than art dedicated to the highest standards, not like The Monkees or Disco Duck.


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## ArtMusic (Jan 5, 2013)

millionrainbows said:


> I agree, and this also reinforces my point that minimalism has more to do with world music than with pop.


Do you think minimalism might develop into contemporary "easy-listening" music?


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## Guest (Dec 18, 2015)

millionrainbows said:


> In a way, it sounds like you are saying that Steve Reich is not a serious artist. He meets all of my criteria.
> 
> You must think "high art" means something other than art dedicated to the highest standards, not like The Monkees or Disco Duck.


So, for the second time, I ask you to put me right. What do you mean by 'high art'?


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

MacLeod said:


> So, for the second time, I ask you to put me right. What do you mean by 'high art'?


If I may answer, "high art" means the stuff I consider pretty classy. Not like that proletarian crud.


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## Guest (Dec 18, 2015)

KenOC said:


> If I may answer, "high art" means the stuff I consider pretty classy. Not like that proletarian crud.


Thanks, but no, Ken...that's what _you _mean...I need to be clear what million means as he suggests I have misunderstood him.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

MacLeod, he'll just answer, "Music for divine contemplation." And how much help will that be?


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## Tedski (Jul 8, 2015)

Just my little contribution for the OP:


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## Guest (Dec 18, 2015)

KenOC said:


> MacLeod, he'll just answer, "Music for divine contemplation." And how much help will that be?


So, IMO, Reich is, I'm sure, writing 'serious' music, but equally, the writers of Last Train to Clarksville and Daydream Believer had a serious purpose too.

(...I'm not sure sure about Rick Dees!!)


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

MacLeod said:


> So, IMO, Reich is, I'm sure, writing 'serious' music, but equally, the writers of Last Train to Clarksville and Daydream Believer had a serious purpose too.


Even the making of money -- serious business indeed, if your belly is empty.


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## Stirling (Nov 18, 2015)

High Art - stuff we to after it fell from the dance floor.


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

High Art rocks.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

Minimalism had to create its own outlet. It was really the continuation of the 'establishment' of classical music, but the classical establishment was not really a viable, living force which reflected true creativity of new composers; it was almost dead, out of touch and outdated. 

So minimalism sprang from art loft concerts in NYC; Lamont Young, Terry Riley, and Philip Glass forming their own ensembles, using PA systems, and releasing the odd record.

But minimalism was not part of the "musical establishment" and had to create its own way, and finally, by sheer force of popular grassroots people who bought the records and went to the loft and museum events, it became a real contender.

It was not part of the record industry, nor was it aligned with "popular" music or the industry which produces that product.

In this sense, it was "high art" because it came from a place of artistic sincerity and integrity, and was a true expression of the artists, which people related to.

Of course, music of any genre can transcend its ostensibly utilitarian boundaries as "product" (The Beatles) and become considered as "high" or "higher" art, but this usually takes a period of time.

Minimalism, however, did emerge as a present-day movement, which had artistic rather than commercial intentions from the start. Of course, Phil Glass wanted to make some money so he could quit driving taxicabs, but it is obvious that art and music was his highest priority, with money coming as a result of that.

Also, when we look at La Mont Young, Riley, Glass, and Reich, we see that they are spiritual men, which is also a good sign that the true Western tradition of CM is being continued, as this has always been an element of "high art" as opposed to music which is designed for twerking.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

MacLeod said:


> So, for the second time, I ask you to put me right. What do you mean by 'high art'?


The fact that minimalism, meaning the music of Glass, Reich, Riley, and others, is "high art" (meaning partially that it is not "product" produced for marketing reasons or a target audience niche) should be self-evident, especially to those listeners who watched it emerge and truly value this music.

I'm not here to argue definitions. I have my criteria, and I do make a distinction between serious "high" art and commercial pap.

There are nuances to my considerations, as well; I consider Jim Hall to be a true artist, along with many other jazz artists. Western classical tradition has no monopoly on this.

But here in the era of post-modernism, the idea of "high art" seems to be more and more irrelevant and questionable, unless it's from the museum of past eras, like Beethoven.

The difficult task in our present era is to discern what is "high art" right now: a music or movement which is instantly recognizable as having quality and integrity, without having the "patina" of old-world tradition. Probably, the older you get, the more difficult this becomes, apparently.


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## science (Oct 14, 2010)

The difference between high and low art is how much it costs.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

Recording has changed everything. The European Western classical tradition no longer dominates. Recording has given new power to popular, folk, and world musics, in that they now have a permanent history, in aural form, which in the past CM held exclusively with the written score.

Blind Willie Johnson's "Dark Was the Night" is now considered by many blues historians as the highest form of human expression, and therefore "high art," because it is a profound expression of human suffering and spirituality.

A new post-European/Western history is emerging; we have entered the enormous, complicated, often confusing room of post-modernism. 

Beethoven is inarguably 'high art,' and the Ninth is considered one of the highest achievements of Man; but those days are in the past. An old saying goes that "Elvis was the last thing that everybody agreed on," and this shows the problem; The Beatles, as popular as they were, were not universally loved, especially in the Southern U.S., with the Beatle record-burnings in the 1960's. 

Defining what is "high art" is becoming increasingly complicated, and anyone who is asking for simplistic, pat definitions is going to end up even more mystified, if they think that there is now a definition which can be indisputably true.


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## Guest (Dec 19, 2015)

millionrainbows said:


> Defining what is "high art" is becoming increasingly complicated, and anyone who is asking for simplistic, pat definitions is going to end up even more mystified, if they think that there is now a definition which can be indisputably true.


I don't think it's complicated at all.

There's no such thing. (I'm tempted to add the final, definitive opinion; "Fact.")

There are those who, for their own ends, seek to validate or to denigrate this or that music by asserting that the motives and purposes of artists are more or less worthy. It tends to reduce itself to polar opposites - contemplation of the human condition v making money. But even if we were to accept this analysis (that the motives of artists can be quantified and valued) there would be a plethora of variations in between the poles.

Beethoven's music is not 'high art' - it's just music. Minimalism is not 'low art' - it's just music. Presley and The Beatles the same.

By all means argue about the level of musical skill, or "complexity", but let's leave out the analysis of artistic motive in determining whether we can justify to ourselves and others that the music we listen to is valuable.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

_M__illionrainbows:_ Beethoven is inarguably 'high art,' and the Ninth is considered one of the highest achievements of Man; but those days are in the past.

Defining what is "high art" is becoming increasingly complicated, and anyone who is asking for simplistic, pat definitions is going to end up even more mystified, if they think that there is now a definition which can be indisputably true. 

_MacLeod:_ There's no such thing. (I'm tempted to add the final, definitive opinion; "Fact.")

Beethoven's music is not 'high art' - it's just music. Minimalism is not 'low art' - it's just music. Presley and The Beatles the same.

If we can't recognize that Beethoven's artistic goals and achievements are "higher" - in a sense that matters - than Elvis Presley's, then Elvis is the best we deserve.


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## Guest (Dec 19, 2015)

Woodduck said:


> If we can't recognize that Beethoven's artistic goals and achievements are "higher" - in a sense that matters - than Elvis Presley's, then Elvis is the best we deserve.


Just to be clear, I don't believe that "goals and achievements" are the same thing as I was writing about, which was motives and purposes.


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## GioCar (Oct 30, 2013)

science said:


> The difference between high and low art is how much it costs.


This goes together with: high art is inversely proportional to the artist's income.


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## Blancrocher (Jul 6, 2013)

Woodduck said:


> If we can't recognize that Beethoven's artistic goals and achievements are "higher" - in a sense that matters - than Elvis Presley's, then Elvis is the best we deserve.


Well, I hope at least that most of us can agree that Stockhausen's helicopter quartet is higher than most other music.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Blancrocher said:


> Well, I hope at least that most of us can agree that Stockhausen's helicopter quartet is higher than most other music.


I'll have to take your word for it. Music like that is over my head.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

MacLeod said:


> Just to be clear, I don't believe that "goals and achievements" are the same thing as I was writing about, which was motives and purposes.


I'm not clear about the difference between an artist's "goals" and his "motives and purposes." So let me disagree with you more pointedly. You wrote: _"There are those who, for their own ends, seek to validate or to denigrate this or that music by asserting that the motives and purposes of artists are more or less worthy. It tends to reduce itself to polar opposites - contemplation of the human condition vs. making money. But even if we were to accept this analysis (that the motives of artists can be quantified and valued) there would be a plethora of variations in between the poles."_

I think the motives and purposes of artists are indeed more or less worthy. To think otherwise you have to believe one or more of the following: that art has no meaningful relation to life, that it has no subject or message, that artists have nothing to say or don't know what they're saying, or that anything they attempt to say is as much or as little worth saying as anything else.

I don't believe any of these things.


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## Guest (Dec 19, 2015)

Woodduck said:


> I'm not clear about the difference between an artist's "goals" and his "motives and purposes." So let me disagree with you more pointedly. You wrote: _"There are those who, for their own ends, seek to validate or to denigrate this or that music by asserting that the motives and purposes of artists are more or less worthy. It tends to reduce itself to polar opposites - contemplation of the human condition vs. making money. But even if we were to accept this analysis (that the motives of artists can be quantified and valued) there would be a plethora of variations in between the poles."_
> 
> I think the motives and purposes of artists are indeed more or less worthy. To think otherwise you have to believe one or more of the following: that art has no meaningful relation to life, that it has no subject or message, that artists have nothing to say or don't know what they're saying, or that anything they attempt to say is as much or as little worth saying as anything else.
> 
> I don't believe any of these things.


OK. First, I see the ambiguity in writing "more or less worthy" when what I meant was "more worthy or less worthy". That is, that some listeners validate the music they listen to by telling us that the artist has worthy purposes (eg to produce 'high art' - whatever that is); and then denigrate the music that they don't listen to because the artist has less worthy purposes (eg to make money).

I use the term 'motive' to refer to that which 'moves' the artist to create, often a subconscious thing - a compulsion to express oneself, or to pursue a particular obsession, perhaps. A 'purpose' tends to be more explicit and conscious and could be the making of money, or the creation of 'art'. For me, 'goal' is the outcome or end result of that creation. None of these things are static or unchanging or pure.

So, for a crude example, we might say that Beethoven was driven or motivated by his need, through music, to question or engage with the divine; his purpose was often to create music to express particular views or explore particular forms; his goal was to write a symphony.

I'm separating things that others might say are inextricably interlinked - and they would be right. My point is that I am not going to seek validation of what I listen to by telling the world that Beethoven's motives and purposes are more worthy than Elvis Presley's. I might argue that the outcomes or products - say, the 9th and a performance of Blue Suede Shoes - can be compared in ways that are nothing to do with motive or purpose, but I'm not going to bother with the nonsense of claiming that because Beethoven wrote 'high art', and I prefer him to Elvis (which I do) I am a more sophisticated (superior) listener.


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

as I've said other times, I think that popular music was minimalism before minimalism.
This is a perfect example of what was saying:


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