# When does Plácido Domingo retire?



## Hele (Aug 26, 2020)

I do realize that there's no one who can answer that question, but it's almost painful to watch him ... Why on earth does he continue to perform??? He's really just a shadow of the former glory  He said back to 80s that he doesn't want this situation to happen when people are wondering why he's still singing. But it's exactly what is happening now. I guess I'm too emotional about it, but it's hard to watch when one of your favorite artist goes down like a sinking ship ... Has anybody heard him live lately, is it really so bad as it sounds?


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

Ever since his sexual dalliances came to bear I have not heard him but before that happened, and through all the negative responses about his baritone switch and mediocre conducting, I must admit that I was still awed by his still very acceptable sound and his vitality and youthfulness for his age. 
I could name some younger ones who need to quit the game, but when someone is still able to sell the house and get standing ovations, I say let him be happy and offer what's left for those people who still happen to love his image.
I think it must be one of the toughest things in the world to "step down from the stage forever."


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## Hele (Aug 26, 2020)

nina foresti said:


> I think it must be one of the toughest things in the world to "step down from the stage forever."


Couldn't agree more.


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

Hele said:


> Has anybody heard him live lately, is it really so bad as it sounds?


Sorry to break it to you, but it's worse in the house than on recordings. His first few baritone roles were interesting to hear (Boccanegra or Rigoletto) even though he doesn't have the real baritone sound for them. However, when he tried to sing Nabucco without being able to make the high notes and everything he has done since, it has been a sad end to a great career.

This sometimes happens. It's best to concentrate on all those wonderful recordings (especially from the 60s and 70s).

N.


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

I saw him as Luisa Miller's Father a few years ago and he seemed to be okay. Face it, to many he is an icon.


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## Sieglinde (Oct 25, 2009)

When does The Winds of Winter get published? When does The Elder Scrolls VI come out? Both will probably happen before Domingo retires. I stg than man will be dragged off to hell directly from stage when his contract with the Devil ends.


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## MAS (Apr 15, 2015)

Sieglinde said:


> When does The Winds of Winter get published? When does The Elder Scrolls VI come out? Both will probably happen before Domingo retires. I stg than man will be dragged off to hell directly from stage when his contract with the Devil ends.


Those who aren't already throughly sick of him will probably keep hiring him! :lol:


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

It is tragic when a great artist doesn’t know when to quit. Solti once said that as a singer’s voice doesn’t last forever then it is a good idea for them to retire while still in good voice as people remember you as you last were. He mentions Tebaldi and Baker who did that. I remember when Sutherland was asked why she retired she said, “Because I don’t want people asking, ‘When is the poor old thing going to go!’” That is happening to Domingo, one of the greatest tenors ever. Such a pity he will be remembered by many as a second rate baritone


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

Janet Baker is the perfect example of a singer who retired before vocal decline set in and that has lead many to say that she retired too early. I think Sutherland and Price were two who timed it about right (yes, they were past their best in their final years, but they were still passable). That said, I know of people who think they carried on too long. Damned if you do, damned if you don't. Domingo, on the other hand is in a whole different league.

I can understand him not wanting to put it aside, but why not turn to Lieder and Spanish song?

N.


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

The obvious answer (at least was until his distasteful personal life entered into it) is that he still(?) sells out the house and gets standing ovations. Face it opera lovers, business is business. You should only know some of the sleazy things still going on behind the scenes. More than you'd like to know have personas that would displease you greatly if you knew the truth about their lives.
Ya gotta get a tough skin and separate the person from the talent. (Can you say Richard Wagner?)

It was always a mystery to me that opera singers (much unlike movie stars) have always been open to the public and invite them into dressing rooms backstage and are so willing to give personal interviews about their lives. 
It is chance-taking because if you regard a singer to have a personality that really rubs you the wrong way, your disappointment will be so strong against them that you'll jump ship.
The less you know, the more enjoyable will be the experience.


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

It will be interesting to see if Domingo will make a come back after the allegations. I agree that the reason Domingo continued to be engaged was due to selling out. Business is business, but as Callas said, "not everything about art is beautiful". For those of us who value artistic truth Domingo pretending to be a baritone has grated somewhat.

N.


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

The Conte said:


> It will be interesting to see if Domingo will make a come back after the allegations. I agree that the reason Domingo continued to be engaged was due to selling out. Business is business, but as Callas said, "not everything about art is beautiful". *For those of us who value artistic truth Domingo pretending to be a baritone has grated somewhat.
> *
> N.


Which reminds me of the old story about the time Caruso was doing a La Boheme and the bass was supposed to be singing his aria goodbye to his coat ("vecchia zimarra senti") when suddenly he completely lost his voice and signaled to Caruso for help.
Immediately Caruso took a spot directly behind the singer and told him to move his lips while Caruso sang the part. It worked perfectly because Caruso had such a powerful sound he was able to project it to a bass and no one in the audience was aware of the difference.


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

nina foresti said:


> Which reminds me of the old story about the time Caruso was doing a La Boheme and the bass was supposed to be singing his aria goodbye to his coat ("vecchia zimarra senti") when suddenly he completely lost his voice and signaled to Caruso for help.
> Immediately Caruso took a spot directly behind the singer and told him to move his lips while Caruso sang the part. It worked perfectly because Caruso had such a powerful sound he was able *to project it to a bass* and no one in the audience was aware of the difference.


What does that mean? To project the voice means to send it out so that it is heard in the auditorium. 'To project to a bass' means to have a technique where the voice travels so that a bass (presumably sitting in the audience) would be able to hear it!

Do you mean that Caruso could make it sound as if the voice came from the bass instead of him? That's somewhat different to sounding like a bass. We can't know what it sounded like when Caruso filled in for the sick bass, however, he did record the aria for his friends. It's a testament to Caruso's versatility that his voice has a darkness that works in the aria (he sounds as though he could be a baritone). However, if you listen carefully he doesn't have the resonance a bass would on the low notes. It's still a wonderful recording due to Caruso's unique, noble sound and his musicianship. Caruso wasn't a bass, though and Domingo isn't a baritone.

N.


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## wkasimer (Jun 5, 2017)

The Conte said:


> I can understand him not wanting to put it aside, but why not turn to Lieder and Spanish song?


Well, maybe Spanish song, but Lieder??? He's never been a Lieder singer, and lacks the sort of interpretive skills and imagination essential to the genre. And his German is atrocious. I cannot imagine sitting through a Domingo recital.


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

wkasimer said:


> Well, maybe Spanish song, but Lieder??? He's never been a Lieder singer, and lacks the sort of interpretive skills and imagination essential to the genre. And his German is atrocious. I cannot imagine sitting through a Domingo recital.


Great points. Can we say art song in general? (That's what I mean by 'Lieder' even if not strictly so.)

Domingo was an intelligent singer when he wanted to be and that could have been a good move. Imagine him in songs by Verdi and Donizetti transposed down to be comfortable for him.

N.


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## Revitalized Classics (Oct 31, 2018)

The Conte said:


> Great points. Can we say art song in general? (That's what I mean by 'Lieder' even if not strictly so.)
> 
> Domingo was an intelligent singer when he wanted to be and that could have been a good move. Imagine him in songs by Verdi and Donizetti transposed down to be comfortable for him.
> 
> N.


Domingo's career has been a little unusual in that unlike Gigli, di Stefano, Pavarotti and Carreras I don't recall him ever singing a recital of songs/arias/lieder or whatever accompanied by piano? If so, it is a bit anomalous.

Pavarotti et al sang recitals all the time, all over the world. In Pavarotti's case following a recognisable pattern of arie antiche, perhaps some religious arias, songs by Bellini, Donizetti, Verdi, Tosti etc interspersed and then finishing with a few opera arias.

In some ways Domingo could have learned from this and the example of Carreras how to manage the winding down of his career: Carreras acknowledged what his resources were post-Leukemia, largely stepped away from staged opera in the 1990s and resultantly was able to extend then roll up his career without the same controversy about repertoire etc.


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

The Conte said:


> What does that mean? To project the voice means to send it out so that it is heard in the auditorium. 'To project to a bass' means to have a technique where the voice travels so that a bass (presumably sitting in the audience) would be able to hear it!
> 
> Do you mean that Caruso could make it sound as if the voice came from the bass instead of him? That's somewhat different to sounding like a bass. We can't know what it sounded like when Caruso filled in for the sick bass, however, he did record the aria for his friends. It's a testament to Caruso's versatility that his voice has a darkness that works in the aria (he sounds as though he could be a baritone). However, if you listen carefully he doesn't have the resonance a bass would on the low notes. It's still a wonderful recording due to Caruso's unique, noble sound and his musicianship. Caruso wasn't a bass, though and Domingo isn't a baritone.
> 
> N.


What does that mean? Nothing. I just thought that old story would be fun to tell here for those who never heard it before is all. And you are Sooooooo right. A tenor is a tenor, and a baritone is a baritone and never the twain shall meet.:tiphat:


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

nina foresti said:


> What does that mean? Nothing. I just thought that old story would be fun to tell here for those who never heard it before is all. And you are Sooooooo right. A tenor is a tenor, and a baritone is a baritone and never the twain shall meet.:tiphat:


There are exceptions. Bergonzi began as a baritone and so did Vinay - and the latter went back to being a baritone. But Domingo always sounds like a tenor.


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

DavidA said:


> There are exceptions. Bergonzi began as a baritone and so did Vinay - and the latter went back to being a baritone. But Domingo always sounds like a tenor.


Domingo also started as a baritone. Vinay had a voice that was between tenor and baritone, but isn't he remembered primarily as a tenor?

I'm not saying that singers should never sing outside of their voice type and the results can be interesting (such as Domingo's Boccanegra and Caruso's Colline), however it's best if those excursions are few and far between.

N.


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## annaw (May 4, 2019)

The Conte said:


> Domingo also started as a baritone. Vinay had a voice that was between tenor and baritone, but isn't he remembered primarily as a tenor?
> 
> I'm not saying that singers should never sing outside of their voice type and the results can be interesting (such as Domingo's Boccanegra and Caruso's Colline), however it's best if those excursions are few and far between.
> 
> N.


Vinay certainly sounds baritenor-ish to me as well. While Domingo's voice is dark, it's not really a baritenor voice, in my opinion. Vinay's most famous repertoire was still dramatic or heldentenor, not baritone (although he did record Telramund later). Melchior started off as a baritone too but in his early recordings, which he made in baritone repertoire (his Il balen should be on youtube), his tenor voice is quite evident. Suthaus was miscategorised as baritone by his early voice teacher as well. However, all these three have, in my opinion, more vocal power and darkness than Domingo and only Vinay seemed to record baritone repertoire (like the above-mentioned Telramund) later in his career.


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## Sieglinde (Oct 25, 2009)

Here's a Del Monaco vs. Vinay revenge duet:






Domingo wishes he sounded anywhere near like Vinay as a baritone XD


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## Hele (Aug 26, 2020)

Revitalized Classics said:


> Domingo's career has been a little unusual in that unlike Gigli, di Stefano, Pavarotti and Carreras I don't recall him ever singing a recital of songs/arias/lieder or whatever accompanied by piano? If so, it is a bit anomalous.
> 
> In some ways Domingo could have learned from this and the example of Carreras how to manage the winding down of his career: Carreras acknowledged what his resources were post-Leukemia, largely stepped away from staged opera in the 1990s and resultantly was able to extend then roll up his career without the same controversy about repertoire etc.


Actually, Domingo took the other, parallel road quite early - conducting. So I think, instead the recitals of the art song, he chose something else, although I remember, he mentioned in his book (1983), that he would like to sing Lieder in future ... But he didn't do it and it sure was a wise decision. 
From my point of view, he could retire from the opera stage quite peacefully. He's still able to conduct, do some recitals with "his" repertoire. Also he has his Operalia. That should be more than enough (for his age) and fulfill the expectations of the fans also.


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## annaw (May 4, 2019)

Sieglinde said:


> Here's a Del Monaco vs. Vinay revenge duet:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I stumbled upon this (he definitely doesn't look like a 72-year-old):






Even the fact that he mentions that he was definitely not a bass gives some insight into how dark his voice really was :lol:. I think Vinay was one of a few exceptions whose voice really was a baritenor voice and fit for singing baritone roles. Domingo just is able to sing baritone roles but his voice never seemed to have the needed depth and darkness (tenor voices just usually don't) to sing true baritone repertoire successfully. Domingo's tenor voice was terrific but even now, when I listen to his _Il Balen_ for example, I get a sensation of a tenor voice pushed into the lower register. He still sounds like a tenor and the singing doesn't sound entirely natural.

On the other hand, Domingo doesn't seem to have anything to lose - I doubt his wonderful recordings as a tenor will be forgotten just because of his endeavours in the baritone repertoire. If he wants to sing and if that also brings in money and popularity to opera, I see no reason why he shouldn't. I can only imagine how difficult it's to retire from the stage. From what I've read, Bastianini refused to have a surgery, which might have been more successful than the radiation cure, because that would have meant he wouldn't have been able to sing anymore. He was willing to risk his life for being able to sing. Del Monaco was also quite crushed when he had to retire from the stage due to his illness.


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## Revitalized Classics (Oct 31, 2018)

annaw said:


> I stumbled upon this (he definitely doesn't look like a 72-year-old):
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I agree with this. Although I mentioned Domingo could have taken the other route of singing recitals tailored to his voice - and elsewhere I've pondered if he could have sung parts like Herod (Salome), Mime and Loge (Ring), Aegisth (Elektra) etc for ageing tenor - I don't actually mind Domingo singing some of the baritone parts. I'd have liked to have seen his Macbeth, it seems to have been one of his better baritone parts.

I heard him in I Due Foscari back at Covent Garden in 2014 and contrary to received opinion I enjoyed his performance both vocally and dramatically. I don't think it in any way harms his long-established reputation as a tenor and I don't, in addition, subscribe to the idea that he is getting in the way of younger artists: his Operalia initiative vastly outweighs his own footprint.

If he is going to singing baritone parts it would be good if it brings attention to less-well-known parts of the repertoire e.g. Donizetti's Belisario which I have not heard before.


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## annaw (May 4, 2019)

Revitalized Classics said:


> I agree with this. Although I mentioned Domingo could have taken the other route of singing recitals tailored to his voice - and elsewhere I've pondered if he could have sung parts like Herod (Salome), Mime and Loge (Ring), Aegisth (Elektra) etc for ageing tenor - I don't actually mind Domingo singing some of the baritone parts. I'd have liked to have seen his Macbeth, it seems to have been one of his better baritone parts.
> 
> I heard him in I Due Foscari back at Covent Garden in 2014 and contrary to received opinion I enjoyed his performance both vocally and dramatically. I don't think it in any way harms his long-established reputation as a tenor and I don't, in addition, subscribe to the idea that he is getting in the way of younger artists: his Operalia initiative vastly outweighs his own footprint.
> 
> If he is going to singing baritone parts it would be good if it brings attention to less-well-known parts of the repertoire e.g. Donizetti's Belisario which I have not heard before.


Yes, those are all good points. His main problem with German opera is the language. I mean, Loge is such a character tenor part that I suspect that singing it with attention to the character requires very good understanding of the text. That's why Stolze does the role so wonderfully. However, I think this is the kind of repertoire where I'd really be interested to hear him. For the reason I mentioned above, he still sounds like a tenor singing baritone repertoire.

He could also popularise Spanish songs, like Caruso popularised Neapolitan songs which we can only thank him for. I think using his influence to bring into light more unknown works would be amazing. I'm not sure if German lieder would be perfect for him. Lieder is all about interpretation and attention to the words. The language would be a restriction. (Or does Domingo speak German? I'm not entirely sure actually.)


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## Plague (Apr 4, 2020)

I'm no vocal expert and didn't follow "baritone" Domingo's performances, but judging by this video from act 2 of La Traviata, it seems to me that his voice is not dark or firm enough to sing baritone roles well. And sometimes, his low notes are almost inaudible (for example, 11:36, 12:05):


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Plague said:


> I'm no vocal expert and didn't follow "baritone" Domingo's performances, but judging by this video from act 2 of La Traviata, it seems to me that his voice is not dark or firm enough to sing baritone roles well. And sometimes, his low notes are almost inaudible (for example, 11:36, 12:05):


This is not good. Even beyond the tenor timbre, the voice has lost solidity and core, and even the higher notes of the baritone range show strain. The climaxes are whiny and ugly. Why cast him in this when there are plenty of baritones who can sing it? It's either a financial calculation - his name fills seats - or a personal favor.

We all die.


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## pianozach (May 21, 2018)

nina foresti said:


> Which reminds me of the old story about the time Caruso was doing a La Boheme and the bass was supposed to be singing his aria goodbye to his coat ("vecchia zimarra senti") when suddenly he completely lost his voice and signaled to Caruso for help.
> Immediately Caruso took a spot directly behind the singer and told him to move his lips while Caruso sang the part. It worked perfectly because Caruso had such a powerful sound he was able to project it to a bass and no one in the audience was aware of the difference.





The Conte said:


> What does that mean? To project the voice means to send it out so that it is heard in the auditorium. 'To project to a bass' means to have a technique where the voice travels so that a bass (presumably sitting in the audience) would be able to hear it!
> 
> Do you mean that Caruso could make it sound as if the voice came from the bass instead of him? That's somewhat different to sounding like a bass. We can't know what it sounded like when Caruso filled in for the sick bass, however, he did record the aria for his friends. It's a testament to Caruso's versatility that his voice has a darkness that works in the aria (he sounds as though he could be a baritone). However, if you listen carefully he doesn't have the resonance a bass would on the low notes. It's still a wonderful recording due to Caruso's unique, noble sound and his musicianship. Caruso wasn't a bass, though and Domingo isn't a baritone.
> 
> N.


Strangely enough, I've had to do this once during one of our G&S operettas.

Leading man gets hauled off in an ambulance shortly before curtain (nothing TOO serious - mostly a low blood sugar dizziness), and we're short staffed. One of our heftier women in the cast, a fabulous actress, but only a passable singer, steps in on book for the dialogue, but when it came time to sing, it was me, at the piano, off right in front of the wings in the orchestra pen, singing while playing and conducting while our excellent on-stage 'body' simply pantomimed the lyrics (and did NOT attempt to lipsynch).

Naturally, as I'm in the auditorium/stage area I have no idea that there is a crisis going on in the dressing room until the director comes out 5 minutes before curtain to inform me I'll be singing the character's vocal parts.

I had friends in the audience, and surprisingly, some did not realize our sleight-of-hand until the 2nd Act. Again, the actress was not lipsynching - her mouth remained closed while she acted, sometimes alone on stage.

I do project fairly well, except when the range gets too low. Basically I'm pretty much a baritone these days. The role was mostly 2nd Tenor, with very few high notes, as I recall. And I'm certainly NOT a "classical" singer; I'm more "pop opera" and "pop" than anything else.


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

nina foresti said:


> What does that mean? Nothing. I just thought that old story would be fun to tell here for those who never heard it before is all. And you are Sooooooo right. A tenor is a tenor, and a baritone is a baritone and never the twain shall meet.:tiphat:


(except when there's a "twain" wreck!)


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