# Josquin desprez vs Guillaume dufay



## deprofundis (Apr 25, 2014)

Who is the best classical composer, i have missa pange lingua by Josquin en several track on compilation but im expecting his songs(my view may change*).Since i preffer right now Dufay to Desprez , ensemble unicorn dose a great job puting life into Dufay musique.

While Josquin not that he his not good but i heard this and missa l'homme armée both masses, so i can judge since im not a chance expert into this genra.

Your view on this since both of them seem like great composers, one come earlier than the other can we judge this by standard of there music, anyway fascinating classical composer 2 great names for sure.

I know this one of these boring versus trend, but interresting since some preffer Desprez to Dufay..
Now defend you favorite classical composer among these two, i want to hear fanboy of both?


Have a nice night your pal deprofundis


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## dieter (Feb 26, 2016)

deprofundis said:


> Who is the best classical composer, i have missa pange lingua by Josquin en several track on compilation but im expecting his songs(my view may change*).Since i preffer right now Dufay to Desprez , ensemble unicorn dose a great job puting life into Dufay musique.
> 
> While Josquin not that he his not good but i heard this and missa l'homme armée both masses, so i can judge since im not a chance expert into this genra.
> 
> ...


Why one or the other? I don't get it. Both wrote great music.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

I hope someone (else) will describe the main similarities and differences between the two composers, in a concise and illuminating way.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Mandryka said:


> I hope someone (else) will describe the main similarities and differences between the two composers, in a concise and illuminating way.


You have enough viewers but, perhaps, just like me not able to say anything that makes sense about them, sorry


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## tdc (Jan 17, 2011)

I find Dufay's use of harmony more interesting. It seems like harmony took a step back in music after Dufay for a while. The music of the later Franco-Flemish composers to me generally sounds a little more polished but less harmonically adventurous. In some ways it is similar to the difference between listening to J.S Bach and then the music of the early Classical era which became more about form but seemed to regress a little harmonically.


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## GreenMamba (Oct 14, 2012)

Josquin was later, of course, which doesn't mean better. And what about Ockeghem?!

Differences: the online essay explains a few (scroll down to #3), but I can't vouch for its accuracy.

http://www.uh.edu/~tkoozin/projects/ogan/essays.html

More or less:



> Dufay's era had not yet developed a specific style for sacred music.





> One of the most striking differences in the music of Dufay and Josquin is that instead of basing the Mass on a single voice of chanson or one single melody, Josquin subjects all its voices to composition, fantasy, and expressiveness. Although thematically there were some similarities in the five different movements of the Mass, Dufay's form had not yet developed into the cyclical, cantus firmus mass, where a single chant melody appears in all movements.





> It was also of growing importance to Josquin that the meaning of the texts was clear. This was not a vital characteristic in the music of Dufay.





> Josquin was also beginning to use motive and fugal imitation, in which each phrase of text is assigned a musical subject that is then taken up by each of the voices. This was not a known practice during the three-part writing period of Dufay. Again, for Dufay, all parts were not equal. The chant melody always prominent in the vocal texture.





> Another striking quality of the music of these two important composers was the use of consonance and dissonance. Dufay tended to be rather conservative in his use of dissonance, always resolving tension quickly and between beats. Josquin on the other hand was not afraid from using dissonance on strong beats and in places where it was more obvious to the listener.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

tdc said:


> I find Dufay's use of harmony more interesting. It seems like harmony took a step back in music after Dufay for a while. The music of the later Franco-Flemish composers to me generally sounds a little more polished but less harmonically adventurous. In some ways it is similar to the difference between listening to J.S Bach and then the music of the early Classical era which became more about form but seemed to regress a little harmonically.


You may be right, I'm not able to say. What I can report is that my impression of bold harmonies varies a lot from performer to performer. In Dufay, Orlando Consort - quite bold; Hilliard - Bold; Binchois Consort - somewhere in the middle. An informal and probably superficial impression you understand.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

GreenMamba said:


> > Another striking quality of the music of these two important composers was the use of consonance and dissonance. Dufay tended to be rather conservative in his use of dissonance, always resolving tension quickly and between beats. Josquin on the other hand was not afraid from using dissonance on strong beats and in places where it was more obvious to the listener.


What I don't understand is how much dissonance is an expressive device introduced by the performers, by flattening notes a semitone (musica ficta.) As opposed to how much it was "hard wired" by the composer (I'm not able to explain what I mean by hard wired in the context of a 14th century score, and wouldn't be surprised to learn it's pretty vacuous. )

Right now, as I type, I'm listening to The Binchois Consort sing a motet called "concede nobis, dominum" - it seems stuffed with dissonance!


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

GreenMamba said:


> Josquin was later, of course, which doesn't mean better. And what about Ockeghem?!
> 
> Differences: the online essay explains a few (scroll down to #3), but I can't vouch for its accuracy.
> 
> ...


I believe the writer there is Tim Koozin, a professor of music theory and a smart man. The only thing I would question is the last bit about dissonance treatment. I'm not saying it is wrong, only that it never occurred to me in listening to the two composers and I would have to do some listening with that in mind to test its veracity.


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## tdc (Jan 17, 2011)

EdwardBast said:


> I believe the writer there is Tim Koozin, a professor of music theory and a smart man. The only thing I would question is the last bit about dissonance treatment. I'm not saying it is wrong, only that it never occurred to me in listening to the two composers and I would have to do some listening with that in mind to test its veracity.


Yes the comment about dissonance seems pretty much the opposite of my impressions in listening to these two composers. If anyone can post a musical example of Josquin's music displaying these bolder dissonances I'd love to listen to it.


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## DiesIraeCX (Jul 21, 2014)

Was dissonance daring in these composers' time? I often hear of their use of dissonance (and Bach's, for that matter), but was it considered innovative, daring, or transgressive in their time? Did music critics, commentators and other contemporaries present any kind of backlash or heavy criticism of said dissonance? I'm very curious.


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## tdc (Jan 17, 2011)

DiesIraeCX said:


> Was dissonance daring in these composers' time? I often hear of their use of dissonance (and Bach's, for that matter), but was it considered innovative, daring, or transgressive in their time? Did music critics, commentators and other contemporaries present any kind of backlash or heavy criticism of said dissonance? I'm very curious.


I've read about Bach's use of harmony being considered odd or strange by some in the church who wanted more straight forward music, not sure about Dufay or Josquin though.


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## Morimur (Jan 23, 2014)

I prefer Desprez. How about pitting him against Monteverdi?


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Morimur said:


> I prefer Desprez. How about pitting him against Monteverdi?


Make a poll off it :lol:


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