# musical proselytizing: does it ever work?



## isorhythm (Jan 2, 2015)

In that other thread that I shouldn't have started, mmsbls says: "the question is what is the best way to change those people's minds about modern music."

So it's worth asking: has anyone successfully "won over" a skeptic to some music he or she didn't like at first? Or has anyone been won over?

If so, how?

Any music, not just modern.


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## ArtMusic (Jan 5, 2013)

Yes, by repeated listening. But this does not always work because have finite patience and time available anyway.


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## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

When I first heard Debussy, I was quite skeptical. I thought "*This* is why I hate modern music!"

Then I encountered Mahler. The finale of the Sixth made me say "How can anyone enjoy some parts of this?" Likewise, the Ninth made me think "This is the demise of a once-fine composer."

I found Schoenberg, and I was fascinated, loved some of the music right away, but still skeptical. The idea that modern music tried to break free of restrictions and then imposed the extremely restrictive 12-tone method seemed like a delicious irony back when I was completely ignorant.

I heard Takemitsu. It sounded harsh and unmusical. I gave it up.

Later I heard Boulez. It sounded random, and I gave it up.

It was clear to me from the beginning, though, that all of this music meant something to people, so I didn't come to the conclusion that everyone else was being duped and I was the one who saw through it. It was a long and slow process for me, though, to realize how much beauty and richness I'd been missing.

I can't say the "conversion" took place because of any proselytizing. I was simply interested and wanted to learn more. This all happened more or less on my own initiative.


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## Sloe (May 9, 2014)

People have different personalities and therefore like different music. The only thing one can do is to tell others what music one likes and maybe or maybe not they will like it too.


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## Guest (Jan 14, 2016)

Proselytising only works if you have access to guns.
Paradoxically, if anyone starts to proselytise at me, I reach for my gun.


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## Morimur (Jan 23, 2014)

dogen said:


> ...if anyone starts to proselytise at me, I reach for my gun.


Wow, dogen-take it easy, you silly old '****.


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## Morimur (Jan 23, 2014)

isorhythm said:


> In that other thread that I shouldn't have started, mmsbls says: "the question is what is the best way to change those people's minds about modern music."
> 
> So it's worth asking: has anyone successfully "won over" a skeptic to some music he or she didn't like at first? Or has anyone been won over?
> 
> ...


People are stubborn by nature and they'll never accept anything they aren't prepared to accept-even if it's the truth.


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## TurnaboutVox (Sep 22, 2013)

isorhythm said:


> ... has anyone successfully "won over" a skeptic to some music he or she didn't like at first? Or has anyone been won over?


I don't know. I suspect that it's only possible if the other person is open to being won over. It's rather similar for teaching people psychological theory, something I have long experience of. There are many students who are open to considering it, but some (not that many, considering) whose minds are made up before we start. I find those who uncritically accept and even idealise the theory just as problematic as those who have decided before we start that it's all fraudulent nonsense.

Music again. I was fascinated by the music of second Viennese school, Hindemith, Honegger, Bartok, Janacek and Britten when I first encountered it, but I didn't find them easy. I had to want to stay with it and find out for myself why people valued this strange and dissonant but undeniably exciting music.

What helped me to do so? I have a personality which tends to make me stick doggedly with experiences that I don't necessarily like or understand at first, in the hope of mastering them. I'm not that gregarious, so I have always spent a lot of time on my own, just reading or listening.

We had books galore at home, on every subject imaginable. My mother was interested in visual art, and sometimes took me to galleries. I had been listening to avant garde rock music from my mid-teens. My father had some free jazz LPs which he didn't like, but I thought were rather interesting. He listened to BBC radio 3 and 4, and so did I. I had friends who were interested in modern art and unusual music. Later, my partner knew about modern theatre and drama.

Serendipity. Student summer holidays at the Edinburgh festival with friends enabled me to discover a specialist classical music record shop which featured re-released Quartetto Italiano recordings prominently. Beethoven, Schubert, Schumann and Brahms and...Webern! The Beaux Arts trio playing Ives and Shostakovich, the LaSalle's box set of the Schoenberg, Berg and Webern quartets, and the Alban Berg Quartet's Stravinsky followed.

Maybe unless your personality, your circumstances and sheer luck predispose you, you are unlikely to want to, or be able / enabled to, learn to love modern art of all sorts.

What I'm coming around to is, no, I don't think proselytising works. Introducing people whose mind is open to something, can work. And it takes all sorts, which is good because if people weren't so different, life would be much less interesting.


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

I'm skeptical of individuals who engage in musical proselytizing. Does it work? Probably with some folks.


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## DaveM (Jun 29, 2015)

Morimur said:


> People are stubborn by nature and they'll never accept anything they aren't prepared to accept-even if it's the truth.


But what is the 'truth' here. In the end, the subject here is one's taste. If one simply doesn't like 'modern' music no matter what anyone says, that doesn't make one stubborn any more than if one doesn't like sushi. Trying to change what one likes by talking them into it, whether it is music, food or different forms of entertainment, is largely a waste of time.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

isorhythm said:


> In that other thread that I shouldn't have started, mmsbls says: "the question is what is the best way to change those people's minds about modern music."


Not sure why anybody would want to change someone's mind on this. But if necessary, a direct approach might work best. "Ve haff vays to change your mind. My assistant, Fritz, vill soon haff you begging for modern music." :lol:


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## breakup (Jul 8, 2015)

Why would you want to proselytize music in the first place, if someone doesn't like a certain type of music, so what? Let them enjoy the kind of music they do like. A long time ago I heard an individual say, "If it ain't country, it ain't music." I thought it was a particularly stupid thing to say. If you like classical music, OK, if someone else doesn't like it, That's OK too. How many here like Opera and how many don't. I don't like all Opera but some of the music I think is really beautiful. My wife doesn't like jazz, but she likes saxophone, and a lot of saxophone music is jazz.


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## Triplets (Sep 4, 2014)

I needed a little persuading on Mahler & Bruckner, many moons ago, and they became two of my favorites. otoh, I've had people proselytize about Wagner Operas and Schoenberg, and though I've made what I consider to be an honest attempt to familiarize myself with these 2 Giants, it just doesn't happen for me. I've had some friendships cool over my inability to appreciate these two.


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## arpeggio (Oct 4, 2012)

Not for me. Never


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## Harold in Columbia (Jan 10, 2016)

I guess I've converted some people to Wagner, but they were family, and maybe that doesn't count.


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## isorhythm (Jan 2, 2015)

The reason for proselytizing - maybe a bad word choice - is just the universal human impulse to share joy.

You never ate something delicious and insisted your companion have a bite?


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

isorhythm said:


> You never ate something delicious and insisted your companion have a bite?


A very good point.


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

isorhythm said:


> The reason for proselytizing - maybe a bad word choice - is just the universal human impulse to share joy.
> 
> You never ate something delicious and insisted your companion have a bite?


Never did. Maybe your use of "insisted" is too strong. There's a thin line between insist and demand.


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## isorhythm (Jan 2, 2015)

Bulldog said:


> Never did. Maybe your use of "insisted" is too strong. There's a thin line between insist and demand.


Not demand, that would be weird.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

I think a married couple in a good relationship can easily "suggest" rather strongly that one or the other take a bite. Best to smile and chomp down! Sometimes you'll be glad you did.


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## Guest (Jan 15, 2016)

Morimur said:


> Wow, dogen-take it easy, you silly old '****.


It was only a metaphorical gun, morimur.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

I would never try to persuade anyone to like any music, or rattle on about what I like and dislike. if anyone is curious, I just say what I think, maybe offer to lend them a CD, and leave the rest to them. If something marvelous happens when they listen, I'll be there for any discussion they'd like. It's their adventure and their life.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

dogen said:


> It was only a metaphorical gun, morimur.


Damn. I liked what I was imagining better.


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## Morimur (Jan 23, 2014)

isorhythm said:


> You never ate something delicious and insisted your companion have a bite?


No. There'd be hell to pay if someone touched my food . . . but that's neither here nor there.


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## Guest (Jan 15, 2016)

isorhythm said:


> So it's worth asking: has anyone successfully "won over" a skeptic to some music he or she didn't like at first? Or has anyone been won over?


I don't think proselytizing works...but I'm willing to be persuaded otherwise!


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## brotagonist (Jul 11, 2013)

^ That succinctly sums up what I spent the last five minutes trying to say very awkwardly, Macleod


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

MacLeod said:


> I don't think proselytizing works...but I'm willing to be persuaded otherwise!


If it did my wife would like opera!


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## Guest (Jan 15, 2016)

brotagonist said:


> ^ That succinctly sums up what I spent the last five minutes trying to say very awkwardly, Macleod


Thanks, bro, but I just built on Morimur's excellent post http://www.talkclassical.com/41631-musical-proselytizing-does-ever-post1000770.html#post1000770


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## Guest (Jan 15, 2016)

Woodduck said:


> Damn. I liked what I was imagining better.


Well, the bullets are real!


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## Guest (Jan 15, 2016)

isorhythm said:


> The reason for proselytizing - maybe a bad word choice - is just the universal human impulse to share joy.
> 
> You never ate something delicious and insisted your companion have a bite?


OK yep. But maybe not insist!


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## Guest (Jan 15, 2016)

isorhythm said:


> The reason for proselytizing - maybe a bad word choice - is just the universal human impulse to share joy.
> 
> You never ate something delicious and insisted your companion have a bite?


Ummm...not often, and I always say, "No" when someone asks me to try their food. Ugh, gives me the heebie-jeebies!


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## Nereffid (Feb 6, 2013)

People wanting others to like the things they like is good. Enthusiasm can do wonders. But the problem with proselytisers is they often don't know when to shut up.


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## Chordalrock (Jan 21, 2014)

TurnaboutVox said:


> What I'm coming around to is, no, I don't think proselytising works. Introducing people whose mind is open to something, can work. And it takes all sorts, which is good because if people weren't so different, life would be much less interesting.


I'm not sure why you deny the possibility that people whose mind "isn't open to something" can be influenced to open their minds. This sort of change has happened to me, and I don't think it would have happened if I had lived in some sort of cultural isolation where no one ever expressed their admiration for, e.g., the Second Viennese School with the hope of making converts.

I guess there's a sort of critical mass of people-you-respect who have to express their admiration for a "difficult" composer before you become curious enough or humble enough to put effort into familiarising yourself with that composer in depth. I guess what this critical mass is depends on how stubborn or narcissistic a person is.


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## science (Oct 14, 2010)

Here I go again riding the old horse. 

I doubt that our real reason for proselytizing is usually actually to gain converts. That might happen occasionally, but more often what it does is demonstrates our commitment to the group for which we're proselytizing.

Since the root metaphor is religious, let's look at it. What does the street-corner soap-box preacher get out of standing up there and shouting that the world is about to end? He probably doesn't persuade anyone who doesn't already think pretty much the same thing he thinks. But some people are very impressed: the people who agree with him but are too shy to stand up there and shout it. When he's among his own people, he's a big cheese indeed. 

The same is true for the nice old ladies that show up with literature about the New International Congregation of Whatever. Very nearly everyone throws their literature away immediately, but a few hours of nervously ringing strangers' doorbells will do a lot to cement a person's reputation for commitment to a group (and for the commitment itself). 

I regard that as obvious. As soon as you realize that's the inner logic of proselytism, all the other motivations (i.e. they really do care about all those strangers and really don't want to see people punished by their gods) are obviously reduced to supporting roles.

So what goes on when we try to proselytize our music? If we do it right, maybe someone somewhere is persuaded a little, and that might add up over time, but the immediate result is that the people who agree with us admire us for being one of them. 

Which is why so often the behavior of people who claim to be aspriring proselytizers (whether it's for classical music or some little part of classical music or for political causes or for religion or for any other cliquey aspect of human society) really appears calculated to be mysterious, repulsive, or threatening to outsiders.


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## Strange Magic (Sep 14, 2015)

I agree that attempts to proselytize are doomed to failure; my own futile efforts to persuade others that traditional _cante flamenco_ offers rich esthetic and emotional rewards is sufficient proof for me. But leaving a dish of something out on the table for others to sample can and often does work, in my case anyway. Many of my enthusiasms have developed from just such often serendipitous exposures.


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## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

At any rate, I hate proselytizing and giving recommendations (I don't ever want to recommend someone something they won't like), which is why I do both so rarely.

What some might confuse for proselytizing for modern music is actually just me correcting the absurd nonsense that others spout off blithely as if it were fact. Sometimes this is confused for criticizing others for disliking something.

The fact that some think that they need to have their explanations of why modernist music is objectively bad in order to keep disliking it says a lot about their ideas.


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## Truckload (Feb 15, 2012)

isorhythm said:


> In that other thread that I shouldn't have started, mmsbls says: "the question is what is the best way to change those people's minds about modern music."
> 
> So it's worth asking: has anyone successfully "won over" a skeptic to some music he or she didn't like at first? Or has anyone been won over?
> 
> ...


I kept thinking someone would bring up Young Peoples Concerts and Music Appreciation Class but no one has done so.

In the traditional view of a liberal arts education, one goal is to grant every student the boon of exposure to classical music. I taught music appreciation. I was also the beneficiary of it as a student and benefited from attendance at two young peoples concerts as a student.

In any class of 30 students very, very few will enter a music appreciation class with any knowledge of or appreciation of classical music. At the end of the semester, there will be perhaps 4 or 5 who have become very interested and another 4 or 5 who are at least mildly interested. Some of the students will go on to have a long term love of classical music. Sadly there will also always be a hard core group, especially in high school, perhaps 10, who were consistently extremely negative. This always surprised me as music appreciation was an elective.

Often we had the good fortune of having PTA pay for a small group from the symphony come and perform at schools. The live performances seemed to be especially effective. We had a brass quintet one year that was simply wonderful. They started off with some dixieland jazz and a comedy piece and the kids were absolutely spellbound.

I had experience in elementary, middle school and high school. The greatest success seemed to be in middle school.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

isorhythm said:


> In that other thread that I shouldn't have started, mmsbls says: "the question is what is the best way to change those people's minds about modern music."
> 
> So it's worth asking: has anyone successfully "won over" a skeptic to some music he or she didn't like at first? Or has anyone been won over?
> 
> ...


No, you'll never convince me that Brahms' Academic Festival Overture is exciting music.

But let's not pretend, or ignore a basic fact of human nature: we secretly like it when some other people hate our kind of music. It turns them into "the other," outside of our boundary, and dehumanizes them into "the enemy" who does not really obtain status as fully human in our eyes. We have effectively deleted their identity; they are dead to us.

"An unperson is a person who has been...effectively erased from existence. Such a person would be written out of existing books, photographs, and articles so that no trace of their existence could be found in the historical record.... Mentioning his or her name, or even speaking of their past existence, is thoughtcrime."

Of course, I didn't say that.


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## isorhythm (Jan 2, 2015)

You've all missed what I was really getting at which is mass reeducation camps.

(Ken was close.)


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## brotagonist (Jul 11, 2013)

While I would like it were others to enjoy the music I enjoy or, were someone to ask me for a recommendation and have them come back to say that they liked it, I would be pleased, for sure. It would be nice to be able to share my enthusiasm; however, I don't recall anything ever having developed from my suggestions. I know that I have my taste and they have theirs. If I make you listen to Beethoven, then I have to listen to Aerosmith for you  Sometimes, it's best to keep my mouth shut :lol:

In a fashion, this forum is a means of mostly indirect proselytizing. That is the way I am most open to it. When someone pushes me to listen to something, I tend to view it as a task that takes time way from what I'm actually intending to listen to, so I'm not suitably opened to it.


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## Guest (Jan 16, 2016)

isorhythm said:


> You've all missed what I was really getting at which is mass reeducation camps.
> 
> (Ken was close.)


Then why didn't you ask about 'mass reeducation' instead of winning over 'he or she'?


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## Xaltotun (Sep 3, 2010)

It's our moral duty to proselytize to others about the things that we find genuinely beautiful or true, including music. But it has to be done with respect. "Show, don't tell" tends to work, as always.

If you think something is objectively beautiful, why wouldn't you respectfully hint about it to your neighbour? Maybe because you think it's "different strokes for different folks". But see, I don't agree with that. I'm just being logical in my Kantian aesthetics.

I wish people would try to convert me more with their musics - to me, it suggests that they care about me as a person, even if I hate their music.


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## andrewsmolich1 (Jan 14, 2016)

I often find that learning more about the background and influence of a work can make me hear it in a different way. So, I think that if someone were to tell me something interesting about a piece in an attempt to share the reasons they love it, it could cause me to form a new opinion on it.


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## Chi_townPhilly (Apr 21, 2007)

While I certainly understand the great Bruno Walter's reaction to his first hearing of Wagner's _Tristan und Isolde_ ("Wagner became my god, and I wanted to be his prophet"), the very concept of "proselytizing" has at its heart the attitude that I'm aware of things that you haven't grasped as thoroughly as I- which, to me, seems like a borderline arrogant way to approach the subject.

The most rewarding moments of musical _persuasion_ in my life have been dialectical. I start to learn something of your preferences- you learn a few of mine. I make some recommendations- you make some counter-recommendations. We listen, expanding each other's horizons and vicariously absorbing the warmth of playing a role in the discovery of the works that speak so meaningfully to us. Ahhh... Reverie... Memories- wonderful, wonderful memories...

I hope that every good-hearted music-lover here gets chances to make such memories----


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## Gordontrek (Jun 22, 2012)

In my early teens I would get all up in arms when people talked bad about classical music. I had a few friends that said Bach was boring, that it was pure torture listening to him or anyone else for that matter. What infantile, brainwashed simpletons, I thought. Everything they listen to has gotta have a drumbeat, be less than 4 minutes, and have mediocre guitar players. I played the "classical-is-too-complex" card and even the "you're-not-capable-of-understanding-it" card but to no avail; if anything I was going backwards. Keep in mind I was growing up in Alabama, folks; arguing about this was about as useful as trying to prove to an Alabama Crimson Tide fan why he should switch to Auburn or vice versa. 
So, in short, musical proselytizing is a completely futile effort, depending on who you're talking to. I personally do not remember a time when I was NOT listening to classical music, so as a result I have a deep understanding and appreciation for it. To most other people, it's an enigma. They haven't been exposed to it like we have. If they want to start appreciate it, they must do it on their own terms. 
p.s. I admit that I was very close minded myself early on with regards to pop music, but fortunately I overcame that.


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## Badinerie (May 3, 2008)

On the Down side, I gave up trying long ago, the up side is, I dont have to lend out any of my classsical records!


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## Chordalrock (Jan 21, 2014)

Chi_townPhilly said:


> the very concept of "proselytizing" has at its heart the attitude that I'm aware of things that you haven't grasped as thoroughly as I


If two people have a different reaction to the same music, their brains must be doing something differently. If that discrepancy derives from innate differences, then there's nothing to be said or to be done about it (at least if one wishes to avoid a discussion of eugenics).

However, I have a pretty good idea of how sensation and perception work, and much of it depends on things like how much experience the listener has in listening to certain kinds of music, and what kind of things he listens for. Both experience and listening skills are subject to evolution, and can be developed through personal effort.

It may be considered condescending or impolite to speak certain truths, but they are still truths. You are of course free to value convenient lies above fact, but I'm similarly free to value truth above lies and speak them when appropriate.


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## Guest (Jan 18, 2016)

Chi_townPhilly said:


> the very concept of "proselytizing" has at its heart the attitude that I'm aware of things that you haven't grasped as thoroughly as I- which, to me, seems like a borderline arrogant way to approach the subject.


That's exactly the reaction I get from my wife when I feel obliged to tell her about the shortcomings in her listening habits.


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## breakup (Jul 8, 2015)

Harold in Columbia said:


> I guess I've converted some people to Wagner, but they were family, and maybe that doesn't count.


Did you really convert them, or are they listening just to humor you?


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## breakup (Jul 8, 2015)

KenOC said:


> I think a married couple in a good relationship can easily "suggest" rather strongly that one or the other take a bite. Best to smile and chomp down! Sometimes you'll be glad you did.


Before Christmas my daughters Fiance stated that he didn't like scrapple. Prior to that he had asked permission to ask my daughter to marry him, and I had given my approval. We were planning a breakfast for the Sat. after Christmas that included Scrapple, and I said he would try a little, (in case he had tried a bad lot before), or I would retract everything I had said before. He said "well I guess I'm eating some scrapple". He tried it and still didn't like it, and I said "OK, at least you tried it". They're getting married in Sept.


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## Huilunsoittaja (Apr 6, 2010)

Over the years I've had 4 or 5 Glazunov converts (someone who knew nothing or actually had disdain), ones I know for sure. Some may not have told me, preferring to keep it to themselves, but still, I know you're out there.


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## breakup (Jul 8, 2015)

KenOC said:


> I think a married couple in a good relationship can easily "suggest" rather strongly that one or the other take a bite. Best to smile and chomp down! Sometimes you'll be glad you did.


I just listened to this 



 and asked if my wife enjoyed it and she said "Not as much as you".


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## breakup (Jul 8, 2015)

MacLeod said:


> Ummm...not often, and I always say, "No" when someone asks me to try their food. Ugh, gives me the heebie-jeebies!


My one daughter is just the opposite, when we go to a restaurant she always wants to taste what others have gotten.


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## breakup (Jul 8, 2015)

Huilunsoittaja said:


> Over the years I've had 4 or 5 Glazunov converts (someone who knew nothing or actually had disdain), ones I know for sure. Some may not have told me, preferring to keep it to themselves, but still, I know you're out there.


I'll always listen to a composer that I have never heard before, and then make a decision as to whether I like it or not.


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