# Music today



## Guest (Sep 24, 2015)

One thing that vexes me about the ongoing tonal/atonal debate that surfaces from time to time in one thread or another is how distant all those things are from what I listen to from day to day, from what the people I know are writing, from what I hear in this or that festival of "new music" that I attend from time to time. How little pertinent to what I see as the ordinary, day to day activities of contemporary composers.

Some examples:





















A little sample of what's been going on for the past five years or so.


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

I listened to each of the examples; hope I don't ever hear them again.


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## schigolch (Jun 26, 2011)

some guy said:


> One thing that vexes me about the ongoing tonal/atonal debate that surfaces from time to time in one thread or another is how distant all those things are from what I listen to from day to day, from what the people I know are writing, from what I hear in this or that festival of "new music" that I attend from time to time. How little pertinent to what I see as the ordinary, day to day activity


Funny, I have exactly the same feeling.


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

I found the first one to be absolutely mesmerising! I'll revisit this thread.


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## Epilogue (Sep 20, 2015)

some guy said:


> Some examples:


The accompanying video unfortunately puts me immediately in mind of a vastly superior piece of music, that being "Pinball Wizard" by the Who.

The most recent piece of classical music I know that I find definitely impressive is Gérard Grisey's "Quatre chants pour franchier le seuil" (which is nearly 20 years old).

And I'm pretty sure Kyle Gann isn't important, but until I'm entirely sure, I should mention him too. This one's only five years old, so I guess linking to it should be in the spirit of the thread: http://www.kylegann.com/SnakeDance3.mp3

You're correct, of course, that the tonality versus atonality debate is now ancient history.


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## tdc (Jan 17, 2011)

Epilogue said:


> The accompanying video unfortunately puts me immediately in mind of a vastly superior piece of music, that being "Pinball Wizard" by the Who.


Well personally I find the piece in the OP vastly superior to that song by The Who, but admittedly I've never been much of a fan of The Who although they do have a handful of songs I do like.

@some guy I love when you do these sampler threads, the pieces really take me on an interesting sound journey and make me feel a little more up to speed with current music. Some really nice pieces there I especially enjoyed the Gibello and the Groult/Ferreyra works. (The Yasunao Tone work is a little too noisy for my tastes) The Neumann piece I also like a lot but have listened to it before when you posted it in another thread.


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## DeepR (Apr 13, 2012)

Wouldn't you say this is more electronic music, sound art, noise music etc.? Normally I'm not really into genre-pigeonholing, but you have to draw the line somewhere.

(



 ...ahem, sorry about that )

So yeah, where do genres end and where do other genres begin? Well, I guess this would be a good point of seperation, because where is the connection to classical music as most people know it?

I have nothing against it per se, I'm into other kinds of electronic music myself. There is tons and tons of electronic music out there that is not heavily commercial and dare I say "artful", yet it is not associated to classical music. What makes this specific music any different? The group of enthusiasts who say it is? The composer's background? 
Don't take it as an attack, as I'm simply interested.


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## Guest (Sep 25, 2015)

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> I found the first one to be absolutely mesmerising! I'll revisit this thread.


She is super cool, too. I visit her every time I go to Paris. Beatriz (clip 3) introduced her to me several years ago as one of the more promising and interesting young composers. I think she's done/is doing pretty well, myself.


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## Guest (Sep 25, 2015)

I'm trying to think if anyone I know identifies as a "classical composer." Composer, sure. But the classical label isn't used much any more by these people. These are the next generations on from Xenakis and Cage and Ferrari, though. Though, come to think of it, I'm not sure any of those three identified as classical composers, either. That's where record labels and stores put them, mostly because they're non-pop, artistic, music for music's sake not for commercial gain kinda folks. Plus symphony orchestras sometimes play pieces of theirs that are for symphony orchestras.

Many of the people who listen to them are people who also listen to Sibelius and Schumann, too. So there's that. And many of them were trained "classically" in music conservatories. What we call "classical music" did OK up until 1810, when the term was first coined, and I suppose serious, artful music will continue on just fine after the term "classical" has faded from use.

But I digress.






I haven't heard this yet, but I've been a big fan of Simon's since I first heard his _Pretty Sounds (up & down)_ when it was brand new, so I'm going to listen to it right away. I hope it's OK. I'd never heard of him before, but when I mentioned _Pretty Sounds_ to someone shortly after, they just said, "Oh yeah. He's really something special." And I got the impression in the next several months as I wandered around Europe that everyone pretty much had already pegged him as something special.






This one's great to watch. I have a couple of really short clips up myself. The piece sorta blindsided me, so I wasn't really ready to film it. By the time I got set up, the short piece was almost over.






Also great to watch. Also some short clips by myself that you can find if you want to.

(I found one of them: 



)


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## ptr (Jan 22, 2013)

some guy said:


> (I found one of them:
> 
> 
> 
> )


Hey, I was actually in the audience when this clip was filmed!

/ptr


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## Guest (Sep 25, 2015)

I wish I'd known that. But perhaps we'll still meet some time in the real world.

How many other of those ISCM shows did you get to?


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## Sloe (May 9, 2014)

Epilogue said:


> The accompanying video unfortunately puts me immediately in mind of a vastly superior piece of music, that being "Pinball Wizard" by the Who.


I think that was the best of some guys examples and in fact enjoyable in some way.
Even if we don´t like the same music as some guy it is not the music we are overwhelmed by and we are not forced to listen to it.


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## isorhythm (Jan 2, 2015)

People who make this kind of music, as far as I know, don't associate themselves with classical music at all and call what they do "new music." At least that's how it was when I worked at my college radio station not too long ago.


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## Epilogue (Sep 20, 2015)

"New music" is the name they chose. (Hubris, incidentally. The number of composers who manage to do something substantially new at any given time can be counted on two hands - usually on one.) But "classical music" is the name that chose them.


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## isorhythm (Jan 2, 2015)

Eh, I just don't buy that this should be taken as the most representative face of the classical tradition today, or maybe even as a face of it at all. I think most of its practitioners themselves would agree.

These people are at least as likely to have primarily jazz backgrounds as classical backgrounds.


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## Guest (Sep 25, 2015)

But they do indeed "associate themselves" with "classical music." They listen to it. It's on the some of the same programs as this or that premiere of theirs. It even takes up some space in their pieces in the form of samples. Anyone recall that piece that uses huge chunks of Bruckner's 8, I think it is? Is that one of Henry's?

Never mind. I looked it up. It's Henry's _Comme une symphonie envoi a Jules Verne._ And it uses chunks of Bruckner symphon_ies._ I've only heard it once, in Crest, at the electroacoustic festival there.

They do, it's true, call what they do "new music" generally. Or they refer to each piece by name.

Did Berlioz ever refer to anything he did as "classical music"? Usually, if he called it anything except "Benvenuto Cellini" or "Le Damnation du Faust" or whatever, he called it "modern music." He thought of himself as a Romantic artist, Romantic with a capital R to denote an artistic movement.

But yeah, while the people we're talking about here don't use that label, they do indeed many of them recognize that they have connections with composers who have been classified as "classical." They also, many of them, come out of other traditions. I had attended several new music festivals of a certain kind over maybe a year or more before I realized that the people attending them with me thought they were attending jazz festivals. I was just going to new music concerts. I didn't know.

And a lot of people who may be found in the classical section of the one or two stores still operating started out doing the music that can be found in the rock section of that same store. Heiner Goebbels leaps to mind.






There's one brief and unwatchable clip about _Eraritjaritjaka._ That show is a sequel to _Ou bien le debarquement desastreux,_ and uses many of the same people. But y'all can type in Heiner Goebbels at the youtube and or google prompts just as easily as I can, eh? I only ask that if you find a decent clip of _Eraritjaritjaka,_ please let us know! That was a wonderful show, and I even got to meet the stars afterwards.


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## ptr (Jan 22, 2013)

some guy said:


> I wish I'd known that. But perhaps we'll still meet some time in the real world.
> 
> How many other of those ISCM shows did you get to?


As do I, met lots of folks at those concerts as one usually does at such gatherings, I have the programme in a box somewhere, I think I only "missed" one of the eight IIRC (The one at Nefertiti Jazz Club as I've never been able to enjoy music at this venue).

/ptr


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## Lucifer Saudade (May 19, 2015)

The Groult/Ferreyra was pretty interesting. Currently listening to the Simon Steen-Andersen piece... can't say I "like it" (or all of it at any rate) per se, but there's definitely "something" there...


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## Epilogue (Sep 20, 2015)

isorhythm said:


> These people are at least as likely to have primarily jazz backgrounds as classical backgrounds.


But then, jazz is now basically just a really insular form of classical music.

(I take your point, though.)


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## Guest (Sep 25, 2015)

None of the pieces in the OP struck me as particularly interesting, but they did lead me to other pieces from Presence Electronique which I found more engrossing.


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## Guest (Sep 25, 2015)

MacLeod said:


> None of the pieces in the OP struck me as particularly interesting, but they did lead me to other pieces from Presence Electronique which I found more engrossing.


Sweet clip, MacLeod. That was a very cool concert, to be sure.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

Is some guy saying we're old hat, and he's modern?



some guy said:


> One thing that vexes me about the ongoing tonal/atonal debate that surfaces from time to time in one thread or another is how distant all those things are from what I listen to from day to day, from what the people I know are writing, from what I hear in this or that festival of "new music" that I attend from time to time. How little pertinent to what I see as the ordinary, day to day activities of contemporary composers.


The unspoken implication in this thread statement is that the tonality/atonality debate participants think that this issue is somehow "modern" or supposed to be at the forefront of modern music, and I don't assume that. The tonality/atonalty dialectic is a matter of the specific musical component of pitch, pitch hierearchies, and ways of organizing pitch. In this sense, it is a traditional area, because it is using a traditional musical parameter (pitch, rhythm) to make its statement. In other ways, it is an area that "comments" on common practice tonality, or creates a dialectic with the traditional tonal language.

Take Boulez' Piano Sonatas, for example. They do not require the player to go inside the piano, pluck strings, improvise, or "prepare" the piano in any way. They are about the keyboard and fingers, as the instrument has always been.

With John Cage, and some guy's electronic music, we have entered a new paradigm, in which all sounds are music. In fact, you can re-assess other modernist music, using this concept. Any "string quartet" which requires tapping or hitting the violin has departed from tradition in this way. Ligeti is a departure. Rihm is a departure. Henry Cowell's piano-plucking is a departure.

So "atonal" music, or music which deals with the musical language of pitch, rhythm, phrasing, periods, etc, is still tradfitional in that it views music as a _syntactical language_ of those traditional elements, which also are what _instruments_ are designed for.

Wendy Carlos is a traditionalist, because she uses traditional musical elements in a traditional way, on electronic instruments. Speaking of her, I see the area of "traditional" pitch language to be very promising, pertaining to computer-assisted tunings which change within a composition, in real time.

When, as in electronic music, we have discarded traditional musical language and components and are composing mainly by timbre, sound, and intuition without scoring, i.e. by "performance" or "ear," then we have abandoned tradition, and are entering a new era. This is the difference between Stockhausen's scored works, like the Klavierstucke, Zyklus, Zeitmasse, and his electronic/performance pieces like Song of the Youths, Hymnen, and Kurzwellen (Short Waves).

So, in closing, who said the tonal/atonal debate was about current concerns of these "sound" musicians? It's not relevant.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

I think music should remain as a determined, syntactical 'language,' and be concerned with very determined, formalized ways of manipulating musical materials, as tonality and serialism are. This puts it closer to the Quadrivium. 

"Art" music, which is performed as sound in studios, by ear, or without determined parameters, is entering the area of "art" music, pure sound, etc.

There is crossover, of course, and I am speaking generally.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

millionrainbows said:


> Is some guy saying we're old hat, and he's modern?
> 
> *The unspoken implication in this thread statement is that the tonality/atonality debate participants think that this issue is somehow "modern" or supposed to be at the forefront of modern music, and I don't assume that. *The tonality/atonalty dialectic is a matter of the specific musical component of pitch, pitch hierearchies, and ways of organizing pitch. In this sense, it is a traditional area, because it is using a traditional musical parameter (pitch, rhythm) to make its statement. In other ways, it is an area that "comments" on common practice tonality, or creates a dialectic with the traditional tonal language.
> 
> ...


These fine observations prompt the following thoughts from the musical peanut gallery:

Music not constructed of pitched sounds (tones) ordered according to some syntactic principle is indeed a different animal, and the divide between it and music so constructed is more fundamental than the divide between tonal and atonal music, and certainly between different species of tonal music (modal, et al.)

Traditional music of most cultures is mostly built of tones, unless it consists simply of rhythmic percussion to accompany dancing or other physical movement. The major exceptions that come to my mind are Japanese "noh" music and maybe some other Asian music made for meditation. Most traditional music shows its origins or uses in singing and dancing; the idea of listening to sounds, especially unpitched sounds, for their own intrinsic impact is a recent development of Western music, and such music would not have been considered music by traditional cultures (including Western) and would not, I'll venture, be considered music by most people even today.

For people who have not crossed the divide between pitched, syntactical music and "noise" music of whatever sort (I don't know of another shorthand term for it), the tonal/atonal conversation is not necessarily an obsolete historical relic. I call it a _conversation_ because it is not a single, defined "debate," and there are a number of different issues and questions entailed in it, questions which are multidisciplinary and far from exhaustively understood or settled. Even people who listen to "noise" music can, if they care to, explore these issues. To dismiss the whole topic as "irrelevant" is to deny the common musical experiences and concerns of people who still think of music as fundamentally an aesthetically expressive "language" of tones and structures made of tones, and for whom there remains a heard, felt, and difficult to understand divide between the different syntactic principles - specifically those of tonality and nontonal systems - by which tones are organized.

The OP statement

_"One thing that vexes me about the ongoing tonal/atonal debate that surfaces from time to time in one thread or another is how distant all those things are from what I listen to from day to day, from what the people I know are writing, from what I hear in this or that festival of "new music" that I attend from time to time. How little pertinent to what I see as the ordinary, day to day activities of contemporary composers"_

may speak to the ordinary, everyday activities of an Emmanuelle Gibello, but it evidences an out-of-touchness with the experiences of the vast majority of music-lovers and, I'd say, humans on the planet. To them - to us - the fact that dodecaphony was created a century ago is of no importance at all in the quest, made by each listener as an individual, to comprehend the experience and meaning of tonal, atonal, or serial music. Questions of aesthetics do not date like fashions in clothing, and the art of the past - a century ago is not even a long time as the ages roll - is very much alive and relevant for people today.

A conversation about aesthetic experience is not irrelevant or obsolete until people stop having the experience.


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## Epilogue (Sep 20, 2015)

millionrainbows said:


> When, as in electronic music, we have discarded traditional musical language and components and are composing mainly by timbre, sound, and intuition without scoring, i.e. by "performance" or "ear," then we have abandoned tradition, and are entering a new era.


Or maybe we've just gone back to the Stone Age.


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## Guest (Sep 26, 2015)

millionrainbows said:


> Is some guy saying we're old hat, and he's modern?
> 
> The unspoken implication in this thread statement is that the tonality/atonality debate participants think that this issue is somehow "modern" or supposed to be at the forefront of modern music, and I don't assume that.


I don't infer that at all. I just get that _his _day-to-day listening experience is far from what seems to preoccupy others.

"While you're over there bashing/defending Schoenberg (_again)_, I'm over here listening to this. You might try some."


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## Nereffid (Feb 6, 2013)

Woodduck said:


> the fact that dodecaphony was created a century ago is of no importance at all in the quest, made by each listener as an individual, to comprehend the experience and meaning of tonal, atonal, or serial music. Questions of aesthetics do not date like fashions in clothing, and the art of the past - a century ago is not even a long time as the ages roll - is very much alive and relevant for people today.
> 
> A conversation about aesthetic experience is not irrelevant or obsolete until people stop having the experience.


And isn't the very existence of this forum predicated on the fact that people want to talk about the music of the past?

I have to add, too, that one of the things that vexes me about discussions of contemporary music such as this one is how distant that is from the contemporary music I listen to from day to day.


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## Guest (Sep 26, 2015)

Nereffid said:


> ...one of the things that vexes me about discussions of contemporary music such as this one is how distant that is from the contemporary music I listen to from day to day.


Then make yourself a nice thread about that like I did, why not?


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## DeepR (Apr 13, 2012)

In the end it's about its methods of creation and actual content, not whether it's made by a composer who is supposedly classically trained, or listened to by people who are also into classical music. 
The music in question is so vastly different in the way it is made and the way it sounds that it is OK to let go of the whole notion of "being connected to classical music", as if that gives the music a special status. "New music", fine, call it that.

Now let us consider for a moment the title of this website and the current subforum....

... perhaps a more suitable place to discuss this music would be --> http://www.talkclassical.com/non-classical-music/

Nothing degrading about that. And it also makes sense when you take into account a lot of other electronic music, such as ambient music, which is also composed, as millionrainbows put it, "mainly by timbre, sound and intuition without scoring" and which is also discussed at the non-classical music forums.


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## Guest (Sep 26, 2015)

I was just listening to Fausto Romitelli's _Index of Metals._ Lovely stuff.

I've been avoiding posting music by people who have died, but I'm not sure that's a sensible way to go about presenting some of the music of today, since "today" means "recent times," and people in the green, growing edge can die just as easily as anyone else.





















Time like this I really hope there's an "afterlife" because I really would like to hang out with these guys some more....


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## Nereffid (Feb 6, 2013)

some guy said:


> Then make yourself a nice thread about that like I did, why not?


Tried it; I prefer to listen to the music than the sound of crickets. :lol:


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## Guest (Sep 26, 2015)

Well, I do like listening to crickets, but I understand.

(I think listening even to a supremely boring piece of music is more interesting that participating in online discussions. But I still do the latter, too.)


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## SeptimalTritone (Jul 7, 2014)

Here's a more full version of 2pi4evR, which I would much more highly recommend.


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## Guest (Sep 26, 2015)

SeptimalTritone said:


> Here's a more full version of 2pi4evR, which I would much more highly recommend.


Thanks Septimal, I had completely forgotten about that.

Plus, the youtube site gives you a column on the right of other things. I can't begin to tell you how many happy hours I've wasted

SPENT!

how many happy hours I've spent strolling about on the column.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

The paradigm of classical music (as distinguished from folk, popular, or ethnic, ceremonial, etc) is that it is scored. The reason that it is scored is for two reasons:

A.) it "records" the music in precise, unchanging form (before audio recording was possible), and

B.) it makes it possible to coordinate larger groups of players than folk or popular are able to control.

There are contrasts which this creates, and consequences to this:

C.) The classical paradigm of scored music takes the creation of musical ideas away from the individual performer or small group, as in folk, and music making becomes a matter of performing only, and 'reading' and performing what is before the player in written form, with the composer as primary creator; i.e., it transforms what was once an exclusively'creative performance' into a written, primary act of creation by the composer, which can be reproduced and transported as pure 'idea;' this is not separated in folk or jazz, where performance is part of the creative act;

D.) Scoring takes music out of the exclusively aural "ear" realm, and gives it a visual bias, as it is in written form, for reading, and becomes an "eye" form, more visual in nature; music in written form acquires qualities which the 'ear' mode cannot duplicate as easily; visual, written ideas can change constantly, with not as much need to remember long sequences or series of changes; human biological memory is no longer dominant, with all its weaknesses.

*With the advent of sound recording,* we can now record any audio event precisely, resulting in these new differences:

A.) is less relevant and important; and making it easier and faster to preserve performances in unchanging form;

B.) is still relevant, in that large groups can be handled;

C.) is less relevant, in that audio recording gives the 'ear' dimension much more power of precision, and precise performances without variance can be captured, in permanent form; it facilitates and empowers the 'performer as creator' paradigm, such as The Beatles writing songs by ear in the studio, without scoring;

D.) is still relevant, in that scoring, a visual mode of perception in written form, facilitates ideas which can be more precise, or change more frequently, are very uniform and consistent, and are not reliant on biological memory.

So, audio recording has changed the actual paradigm of classically scored music vs. 'ear' music. Either form can still be used by itself, independently, with all its strengths and weaknesses, advantages and disadvantages; but audio recording has empowered the 'ear' mode. and scored music has consequently lost some of this power, but has retained other aspects.

Electronic music which is done on tape, without score, or performed in small groups, as with Stockhausen's ensembles (Kontakt, Prozession, Mikrophonie, Kurzwellen) is using the 'ear' paradigm. 
Varese is composing intuitively, with pure sound, but is doing so with traditional orchestral forces. He occupies a middle ground.

Music which is scored (Ligeti, Lutoslawski) but which is to a degree indeterminate, is also in the middle.

It seems that the more 'independence' sound itself is given, departing from the predetermined control of precise scored instructions, the more it departs from the traditional paradigm.

Computers allow a precise control of sound events without scoring as well, using a different form of visual language. This is what distiguishes Milton Babbitt's RCA Synthesizer works from "free" electronic works like Posseur and Varese's Poem Electronique.

Terry Riley is a middle-grounder as well, since actual performance and improvisation is integral to his performance works (Poppy Nogood, Sri Camel), but is contrasted by scored works, such as his scored string quartet pieces and the semi-indeterminate scored piece "In C."


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## Epilogue (Sep 20, 2015)

millionrainbows said:


> Electronic music which is done on tape, without score, or performed in small groups, as with Stockhausen's ensembles (Kontakt, Prozession, Mikrophonie, Kurzwellen) is using the 'ear' paradigm.


As, of course, does pop music.


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## Guest (Sep 27, 2015)

I ran across this clip yesterday. I was playing one of my Gobeil albums, and since that now means for me my laptop, it's become easy to wander over to youtube or vimeo or soundcloud at the same time and see what's going on other than in my "Music" folder.






That led to this






That led to this






Which, since it's not strictly speaking part of music today, had to be supplemented by






Complete with score.

Edit: one more and then I promise, no more Steen-Andersen for this thread. Unless I go back on my word. It happens.


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## tortkis (Jul 13, 2013)

Epilogue said:


> And I'm pretty sure Kyle Gann isn't important, but until I'm entirely sure, I should mention him too. This one's only five years old, so I guess linking to it should be in the spirit of the thread: http://www.kylegann.com/SnakeDance3.mp3


I don't know who are important and who are not to other people, but to me, Kyle Gann is an important composer/writer of music today. I first heard of the name of Noah Creshevsky (born 1945) on his blog Postclassic: Hyperrealism: Chamber Music from Mars.

_Pulp Fiction_ from Creshevsky's new CD _Hyperrealist Music, 2011-2015_ (EM records), in which samples from Gann's _Nude Rolling Down an Escalator_ are used:
http://www.kylegann.com/CreshevskyPulpFiction.mp3

I checked out some albums of Creshevsky, and I was hooked. Most works consist of collage of sampled sounds. Rapidly ascending passages are characteristic of his works, which give feelings of suspension or floating.

_Canto di Malavita_ from _Hyperrealism: Electroacoustic Music by Noah Creshevsky_


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## Blake (Nov 6, 2013)

I was waiting for another some guy exposition. As is obvious, the influx of progressive/experimental music can cause a squeeze of retention in particular parties. But, it simply acts as more fuel for this fire. What a lovely wonder it is.


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## science (Oct 14, 2010)

Epilogue said:


> Or maybe we've just gone back to the Stone Age.


In many ways we have, and let us thank all the gods for it!


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## science (Oct 14, 2010)

Woodduck said:


> The OP statement
> 
> _"One thing that vexes me about the ongoing tonal/atonal debate that surfaces from time to time in one thread or another is how distant all those things are from what I listen to from day to day, from what the people I know are writing, from what I hear in this or that festival of "new music" that I attend from time to time. How little pertinent to what I see as the ordinary, day to day activities of contemporary composers"_
> 
> may speak to the ordinary, everyday activities of an Emmanuelle Gibello, but it evidences an out-of-touchness with the experiences of the vast majority of music-lovers and, I'd say, humans on the planet.


That was its intention, of course.


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## Guest (Sep 29, 2015)

Mark Andre's always good for a listen.

Here's an older piece:






And a newer piece, for contrast:






Here's an old favorite:






And another piece by this really talented composer:






Oh, one more, why not. Who doesn't love a contrabass flute?


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## arpeggio (Oct 4, 2012)

some guy,

Thanks for this thread. There are many new avant garde composers that I am not familiar with. They do not seem to get the attention that many of the early ones like Cage used to get.

Even though I may personally not care for some of the music I am still interested in learning about it.


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## Guest (Sep 29, 2015)

some guy said:


> Steen-Andersen


Bugger me, I've got a piece by him! (on that stupendous Donaueschinger Musiktage 2010)

I'm practically Mr Zeitgeist!!


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## Guest (Sep 29, 2015)

The Donaueschinger Musiktage has been providing Zeitgeist music for almost 100 years now. Since 1921. Such a tiny town, too. Tiny and sleepy. Until October, when it's overrun by new music enthusiasts. And a few others, who attend concerts just to riot. 

Reminds me of something. I just can't quite put my finger on it....


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

Composers or Knob Twiddlers?


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## Guest (Sep 29, 2015)

some guy said:


> The Donaueschinger Musiktage has been providing Zeitgeist music for almost 100 years now. Since 1921. Such a tiny town, too. Tiny and sleepy. Until October, when it's overrun by new music enthusiasts. And a few others, who attend concerts just to riot.


and do they manage to incorporate a beer festival, under the aegis of the Reinheitsgebot??!!...

http://classicalsource.com/db_control/db_news.php?id=3286


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## DeepR (Apr 13, 2012)

Genre issues aside, I somewhat enjoyed the piece Guy Reibel - Variations En Étoile
But most of the time this kind of music is too dry and abstract for me. Maybe I'm looking for things that aren't there. I guess sometimes it is indeed nothing more than "a collage of sounds".


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## Guest (Sep 29, 2015)

"new music as it relates to the classical tradition"

Is someone on the festival board following threads on TC????

[By the way, DeepR, this music does not sound either dry or abstract to me. Not sure how music sounds abstract. But I've heard it used as both a term of approbation and of opprobrium.]


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

This music that some guy hears as he flits around Europe would not be possible without Messiaen.


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## Blake (Nov 6, 2013)

millionrainbows said:


> This music that some guy hears as he flits around Europe would not be possible without Messiaen.


Eh, who knows. You could also say Messiaen wouldn't be possible without plenty of other people, but what a chore of logic that is.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

I gave a listen to some pieces by Steen-Andersen. This is the one I listened to twice.


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## Guest (Sep 30, 2015)

For the first thirteen years of this century, there was a label at the very avant tip of new music activity called Groundfault. Based in Southern California, naturally enough, Groundfault put out around thirty exquisite discs of all sorts of new music under the Groundfault name and offered many other labels for sale through their website. Sadly, they are no more, though you can still find Groundfault recordings here and there. Discogs is the easiest place to find things like this.

I bring this up to introduce Francisco Meirino to the TC new music fans as it was his album for Groundfault--under his previous moniker, Phroq--that was my first hearing of Meirino's wonderfully inventive uses of electronic equipment. Sound reproducing technology has been used to produce music since at least 1930. That's the year Hindemith and Toch put on a turntable concert in Berlin with variable speed turntables and various test recordings. That's also the year of Walter Rutmann's "Weekend," which I just this second discovered had been uploaded to youtube:






Anyway, the use of tape recorders to make music is big part of the history of music in the twentieth century, but all the other kinds of music reproducers have been used, too. Radios, TVs, cassette players, CD players, and so forth. Meirino specializes in a special type of audio equipment, the kind that's broken. He takes broken equipment and coaxes out of it the most extraordinary sounds imaginable.

This is his contribution to the tribute to Zbigniew Karkowski:






And while there's a lot of stuff on youtube, you should know that there's even more on Soundcloud, with better sound, too.


__
https://soundcloud.com/


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## SeptimalTritone (Jul 7, 2014)

^ Hey, in Walter Ruttman's Weekend there's a little snippet of the fun Jewish folk song David Melech Yisrael, which I remember singing a lot in my young days in Jewish temple!

Hehehe. Anyway, I liked Ruttman's Weekend a lot. It reminded me of Pierre Schaeffer.

Also for Francisco Meirino this is really good too (I think you've posted this link before as well)


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## Guest (Oct 1, 2015)

I have. But I certainly don't mind you posting it, too. In fact, I just went straight to it and am listening to it, again, right now.

It is really good, I agree.

Glad you enjoyed the Ruttmann. I had no idea it had made it to youtube until seconds before I posted. If you want a physical CD (and those three inch ones are so cute), Discogs has 6 of them at the moment.


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## Guest (Oct 2, 2015)

Have to say this is one of those days when I'm even more excited than usual about new music.

My copy of the Donaueschinger Musiktage 2013 recordings arrived in the mail while I took my circuits test, and on the same day, NEOS announced the upcoming release of the Donaueschinger Musiktage 2014 recordings!!

Makes a music lover giddy, it does.


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## Guest (Oct 3, 2015)

For my money, the Donaueschinger Musiktage recordings are even more exciting than the festival itself. Which must be true, as I have all the recordings but have only been to the festival once.

Music is good fun, though. No doubt. My comment about the thirty some odd recordings of Groundfault reminded me of the thirty some odd recordings of Metamkine's _Cinema pour l'oreille series,_ which was also pretty impressive. I certainly found something in each recording and my collection is the size it is partly because I have not only all sixty or so recordings but have found many other recordings by the people featured in these series. I have even gotten some very good friends out of it as well, so I'm pretty happy. Francisco's a prime example of how delightful new music people are just as people.

Anyway, here's some samples of the Metamkine people:





















and


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## Guest (Oct 4, 2015)

Er...somebody somewhere...and I thought it was in this thread, but apparently not...referred to a YouTube channel for new music and I thought I'll check that out when I get round to it....

...and now I can't remember who posted it, where, or what the "channel" was...think it began with an "I"

Can anyone help please?


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## SeptimalTritone (Jul 7, 2014)

https://www.youtube.com/user/incipitsify


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## Guest (Oct 4, 2015)

Wow, that _Ruined Edifice_ piece by Jacob Gotlib is sure a sweet piece.

(On SeptimalTritone's link, upper left: 



)

Fun times.

Here's a piece that that reminded me of. The first piece of Carola Bauckholt's I ever heard.






No, they're not anything alike. Much. Who knows how memory works, anyway. Anyway, it reminded me of _Treibstoff._

Here's another nice song (as my kids and I used to say after playing some CD by Merzbow or something--"that was a nice song."):


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## Guest (Oct 4, 2015)

Excellent, thank you Septimal!

and thanks some guy for this thread!


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## Guest (Oct 7, 2015)

dogen, I just now noticed your tag line, The Romance of Sanitation, which made me grin.

As I wander around Bcn, I often want to thank the street and sidewalk sweepers for doing their job, which I appreciate. I fear that they would perhaps misunderstand. If I were to choose my ideal job for my declining years (well--I'm too old to conjugate), it would be sweeping sidewalks. No brain work, leaving me free to write novels to my heart's content once the work day is over.

But I digress.

Although I did envision more suggestions for music today from more people than have heretofore contributed, it is what it is. And I have not yet run out of youtube or soundcloud suggestions of music that has nothing whatsoever to do with tonality or atonality, improperly so-called.

Oh, there's bandcamp, too.

https://dougtheriault.bandcamp.com/

Bandcamp is not for browsers, however, as none of their many categories means anything. None means none. What a joke. Anyway, I don't know why Doug works through them. But he does. And as long as I can remember his name )), I can find his stuff.


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## Guest (Oct 7, 2015)

I'm a slow accruer. And have little to offer. But I sweep good.


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## DeepR (Apr 13, 2012)

Mathias Grassow
https://mathiasgrassow.bandcamp.com/track/everlasting-wisdoom
Welcome to the drone zone... that was just a fragment. 
Hey, to each his own.


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## DeepR (Apr 13, 2012)

Robert Rich live




Always enjoyable, has both melodic and noisier touches


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## Guest (Oct 11, 2015)

Yeah, drone is certainly a thing. Often an amazingly various thing, too.

I don't suppose we need any more references to Francisco Lopez, but hey! Fred just sent out the latest sub rosa email, and the latest sub rosa release is of Lopez's _La Selva,_ the ultimate mix as they're billing it. 500 copies "on 24-bit / 48kHz digital USB flat memory-card with non-audio blank etched vinyl..., numbered and signed by Francisco Lopez."

http://www.subrosa.net/en/catalogue...ironments-from-a-neotropical-rain-forest.html

But back to drone, here's some tasty treats by one of the older old masters of the genre, Eliane Radigue, one of them with Robert Ashley. Delightful!


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## Guest (Oct 11, 2015)

We're all talkin about Lopez, but why don't we talk about Lopez beyond La Selva 

Here are some other works I can't get enough of:

Amarok
Azoic Zone
Lopez Island
Machines
Untitled #217
Untitled #231
Untitled #274
Untitled Music For Geography
Untitled Sonic Microorganisms
Wind (Patagonia)

etc...


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## Guest (Oct 12, 2015)

nathanb said:


> We're all talkin about Lopez, but why don't we talk about Lopez beyond _La Selva_


Hey, fine with me. I love Lopez's music.

I only mentioned _La Selva_ because sub rosa just released the new (and apparently last) mix of it. Don't know how it differs from the _La Selva_ we already know. They're the same length, anyway.

Your list makes me want to go on a binge.

I've gone on binges before.

I never regret doing so.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

Blake said:


> Eh, who knows. You could also say Messiaen wouldn't be possible without plenty of other people, but what a chore of logic that is.


Let me put it this way, then: for this electronic music to be considered and thrive, we first have to abandon the notion of narrative and development in time, and enter a non-literary, non visual mode of purely aural perception, untainted by thoughts of what is or is not 'proper music,' and enter a world of instantaneous 'moment' time, in which sonic events occur in and of themselves, in their own meaning.
The old, bombastic male world of the 'genius' is eschewed in favor of a receptive 'now' which exists from instant to instant. Ego is dead, and the music becomes a vehicle for pure consciousness. In today's 21st century world of efficiency, utility, and ideological use of everything, this may be hard to achieve without drugs. Thus, the new task of the "classical" listener is to achieve a primal mode of perception.

"Gentlemen, I am pleased to announce that we have achieved ZERO!"


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

some guy said:


> Yeah, drone is certainly a thing. Often an amazingly various thing, too.


That's ironic, as 'drone' is being used to distinguish a sub-genre. Drone being the most basic, primal form of tonality.


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## Blake (Nov 6, 2013)

millionrainbows said:


> Let me put it this way, then: for this electronic music to be considered and thrive, we first have to abandon the notion of narrative and development in time, and enter a non-literary, non visual mode of purely aural perception, untainted by thoughts of what is or is not 'proper music,' and enter a world of instantaneous 'moment' time, in which sonic events occur in and of themselves, in their own meaning.
> The old, bombastic male world of the 'genius' is eschewed in favor of a receptive 'now' which exists from instant to instant. Ego is dead, and the music becomes a vehicle for pure consciousness. In today's 21st century world of efficiency, utility, and ideological use of everything, this may be hard to achieve without drugs. Thus, the new task of the "classical" listener is to achieve a primal mode of perception.
> 
> "Gentlemen, I am pleased to announce that we have achieved ZERO!"


I see what you're saying, but I think it's a bit of an alarmist mode of thinking. There's still ego, time, and a certain sense of narrative in the modern electronic movement. It's very different, but certainly not oblivion. And I'm not sure the level of purity in consciousness is more/less in Mozart than in today's music. I bet there where minds conjuring the same premise when Schoenberg was doing his thing... But we're still here, just as egotistical as ever.


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## ArtMusic (Jan 5, 2013)

millionrainbows said:


> Let me put it this way, then: for this electronic music to be considered and thrive, we first have to abandon the notion of narrative and development in time, and enter a non-literary, non visual mode of purely aural perception, untainted by thoughts of what is or is not 'proper music,' and enter a world of instantaneous 'moment' time, in which sonic events occur in and of themselves, in their own meaning.
> The old, bombastic male world of the 'genius' is eschewed in favor of a receptive 'now' which exists from instant to instant. Ego is dead, and the music becomes a vehicle for pure consciousness. In today's 21st century world of efficiency, utility, and ideological use of everything, this may be hard to achieve without drugs. Thus, the new task of the "classical" listener is to achieve a primal mode of perception.
> 
> "Gentlemen, I am pleased to announce that we have achieved ZERO!"


A very nice philosophical way of explaining it, and I think I agree with your post.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

millionrainbows said:


> Let me put it this way, then: for this electronic music to be considered and thrive, we first have to abandon the notion of narrative and development in time, and enter a non-literary, non visual mode of purely aural perception, untainted by thoughts of what is or is not 'proper music,' and enter a world of instantaneous 'moment' time, in which sonic events occur in and of themselves, in their own meaning.
> The old, bombastic male world of the 'genius' is eschewed in favor of a receptive 'now' which exists from instant to instant. Ego is dead, and the music becomes a vehicle for pure consciousness. In today's 21st century world of efficiency, utility, and ideological use of everything, this may be hard to achieve without drugs. Thus, the new task of the "classical" listener is to achieve a primal mode of perception.
> 
> "Gentlemen, I am pleased to announce that we have achieved ZERO!"


"Music becomes a vehicle for pure consciousness. The new task of the 'classical' listener is to achieve a primal mode of perception. ZERO!"

Wonderful satire. I await the sequel "In Utero."


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## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

Woodduck said:


> "Music becomes a vehicle for pure consciousness. The new task of the 'classical' listener is to achieve a primal mode of perception. ZERO!"
> 
> Wonderful satire. I await the sequel "In Utero. "


_In Utero Nihilo._


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

millionrainbows said:


> ...Ego is dead, and the music becomes a vehicle for pure consciousness.


Musicologists of the future will concentrate their researches on music played in our stores. Indeed, this has already begun.

http://www.chartattack.com/news/201...ollection-of-kmart-in-store-background-music/


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

KenOC said:


> Musicologists of the future will concentrate their researches on music played in our stores. Indeed, this has already begun.
> 
> http://www.chartattack.com/news/201...ollection-of-kmart-in-store-background-music/


When ego is dead and consciousness pure, we can shop forever without guilt.


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## Guest (Oct 15, 2015)

I was just listening to some Oehring & Schiphorst, which reminded me of a huge area of new music that has been growing more and more prominent over the past 100 years, theatre.

Not opera or ballet, though there's that, too, but theatrical events, happenings, Fluxus, and a ton of various theatrical elements in otherwise instrumental pieces.




































There's still an unreasonable paucity of video of music of the past 60 years or so with heavily theatrical elements. I would think that new music would be well-served by having high quality video of it. Still not enough. Some of the Simon Steen-Andersen pieces from youtube I've posted, with only a still image of Simon, are pieces where the performers have acting to do along with playing their instruments. Or, that is, playing their instruments in overtly theatrical ways. It's a nice picture of him, but come on!!


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

Blake said:


> I see what you're saying, but I think it's a bit of an alarmist mode of thinking. There's still ego, time, and a certain sense of narrative in the modern electronic movement. It's very different, but certainly not oblivion. And I'm not sure the level of purity in consciousness is more/less in Mozart than in today's music. I bet there where minds conjuring the same premise when Schoenberg was doing his thing... But we're still here, just as egotistical as ever.


Well, put it in the context of listening to Messiaen, by which I mean the same thing. Of course, time still goes on.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

ArtMusic said:


> A very nice philosophical way of explaining it, and I think I agree with your post.


Thanks for the support, ArtMusic. Us Aspberger's guys have to stick together.


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## SeptimalTritone (Jul 7, 2014)

millionrainbows said:


> Thanks for the support, ArtMusic. Us Aspberger's guys have to stick together.


Hey, my therapist thinks I have a mild form of Aspberger's, so I'm part of the club too!


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## Richannes Wrahms (Jan 6, 2014)

I'm very skeptical about 'mild case of x' diagnoses of mental disorders.


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## SeptimalTritone (Jul 7, 2014)

Richannes Wrahms said:


> I'm very skeptical about 'mild case of x' diagnoses of mental disorders.


Yeah, you're probably right. Most likely I just have bad emotional reactions to things.


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