# How Well Do You Like Handel's Opus Six Concertos?



## ArtMusic (Jan 5, 2013)

A set of concertos by an epic genius, composed at the rate of one concerto per two or three days. The opus six set remains one of the finest sets of High Baroque concerto writing.

What do you think of them?


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## ArtMusic (Jan 5, 2013)

They are my favorite High Baroque concertos with the Brandenburgs. Period.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

A bit out of style (for a very long time) but still a constant delight. If Handel had written nothing else, these would be remembered and enjoyed.


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## Casebearer (Jan 19, 2016)

I can't remember liking anything by Händel.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Casebearer said:


> I can't remember liking anything by Händel.


Oh! Oh! Oh! (rends garments, tears hair...)


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## Klassik (Mar 14, 2017)

I'm not sure if there is an option that really reflects my opinion. I think they are quite good. It's certainly up there on stuff I like hearing from Handel. Having said that, I would not rank them above Corelli's Op. 6 concerti in terms of my enjoyment. I certainly would not rank them above the Brandenburgs. Handel would not be right at the top of my list of favorite Baroque composers, but I think a lot of that has more to do with what he was expected to compose more so than what he could compose. It's hard to say, but it is what it is. 

I know this is diverting the conversation away from the topic at hand, but perhaps the greater question in my mind is why Corelli does not get more love than he does. It just seems to me that the Italian Baroque composers don't get the respect today that would be expected given their historical impact at the time. Vivaldi has modern fame at least, but respect?


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

Casebearer said:


> I can't remember liking anything by Händel.


This. I've tried many times, but zero connection.


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## Kjetil Heggelund (Jan 4, 2016)

I really like op. 6! I have spent as much time with them as with the Brandenburgs and Corelli. My 3 tops for concerti grossi.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

ArtMusic said:


> A set of concertos by an epic genius, composed at the rate of one concerto per two or three days. The opus six set remains one of the finest sets of High Baroque concerto writing.
> 
> What do you think of them?


These concertos are full of attractive instrumental effects and catchy tunes, but i haven't noticed anything interesting going on either emotionally or contrapuntally, or harmonically, maybe I've not been listening attentively enough.


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## Guest (Jun 11, 2017)

These concertos stand as one of the pillars of instrumental baroque music. Yes I enjoy them.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Klassik said:


> I'm not sure if there is an option that really reflects my opinion. I think they are quite good. It's certainly up there on stuff I like hearing from Handel. Having said that, I would not rank them above Corelli's Op. 6 concerti in terms of my enjoyment. I certainly would not rank them above the Brandenburgs. Handel would not be right at the top of my list of favorite Baroque composers, but I think a lot of that has more to do with what he was expected to compose more so than what he could compose. It's hard to say, but it is what it is.
> 
> I know this is diverting the conversation away from the topic at hand, but perhaps the greater question in my mind is why Corelli does not get more love than he does. It just seems to me that the Italian Baroque composers don't get the respect today that would be expected given their historical impact at the time. Vivaldi has modern fame at least, but respect?


The consort music writer who I would single out as deserving acknowledgement is Georg Muffat.


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## Resurrexit (Apr 1, 2014)

The naysayers must have a bee in their bonnet. These pieces are a glorious outpouring of genius, full of invention, and together they constitute one of Handel's greatest contributions, more than worthy to stand beside the Brandenburg concertos. I've listened through all twelve in a single sitting multiple times and was left still wanting more.

The Concerti Grossi Op. 3 and the Organ Concertos Op. 4 are almost equally impressive as well.


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## eugeneonagain (May 14, 2017)

Mandryka said:


> These concertos are full of attractive instrumental effects and catchy tunes, *but i haven't noticed anything interesting going on either emotionally or contrapuntally, or harmonically*, maybe I've not been listening attentively enough.


It has to be put down to inattentive listening. No.1 movt 4; no.2 movt 4; No.3 movts 2,3 and 5 are all master-classes in contrapuntal and fugal writing without sacrificing melodic lead. No.6 movt 2 is both contrapuntally and harmonically diverse. Then there's the splendid menuet from No.5.

Handel appears a more relaxed fugue writer than Bach, but it's a testament to his mastery. On the whole he is less chromatic than Bach (in these concerti certainly), but the writing is always first-class. His fugues are far less 'tangled' than Bach's.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

eugeneonagain said:


> It has to be put down to inattentive listening. No.1 movt 4; no.2 movt 4; No.3 movts 2,3 and 5 are all master-classes in contrapuntal and fugal writing without sacrificing melodic lead. No.6 movt 2 is both contrapuntally and harmonically diverse. Then there's the splendid menuet from No.5.
> 
> Handel appears a more relaxed fugue writer than Bach, but it's a testament to his mastery. On the whole he is less chromatic than Bach (in these concerti certainly), but the writing is always first-class. His fugues are far less 'tangled' than Bach's.


Thanks for responding with something specific. Of these like most 2/4 for the contrasting themes, a boldness which makes me think of Haydn (at least when Harnoncourt plays it.) And yes I can see that some of the rest are masterful fugues, whether they are more than that remains to be seen. Maybe part of the problem is precisely what you may well see as a strength - "without sacrificing melodic lead."

Compared to earlier music, I can't help think that this galant stuff the Italians, Händel, Lully, Purcell, liked so much reduced art to easy mass consumption, a preoccupation with surface, dumbing down in fact.


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

I like them a lot.


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## bioluminescentsquid (Jul 22, 2016)

Mandryka said:


> Compared to earlier music, I can't help think that this galant stuff the Italians, Händel, Lully, Purcell, liked so much reduced art to easy mass consumption, a preoccupation with surface, dumbing down in fact.


I read somewhere that Leonhardt believed in precisely this -- he dismissed Handel as a panderer to mass tastes.


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## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

They're ... ok


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

never mind............................


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## Resurrexit (Apr 1, 2014)

Art Rock said:


> A hilarious reaction, as the rest of the post is practically a definition of the phrase "to have a bee in their bonnet" (Preoccupied or obsessed with an idea):


Coming from someone who consistently enters Handel threads to make the exact same comments over and over, I have another phrase for you: pot calling the kettle black.


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

Resurrexit said:


> Coming from someone who consistently enters Handel threads to make the exact same comments over and over, I have another phrase for you: pot calling the kettle black.


So I am not allowed to answer the OP's question because my opinion is not in line with the majority?


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## Resurrexit (Apr 1, 2014)

Art Rock said:


> So I am not allowed to answer the OP's question because my opinion is not in line with the majority?


If being a contrarian makes you feel good, knock yourself out.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

bioluminescentsquid said:


> I read somewhere that Leonhardt believed in precisely this -- he dismissed Handel as a panderer to mass tastes.


Yes. I see it as a general trend in high baroque, which JSB resisted heroically. There's a move in music from depth, complexity, challenge and spirituality to accessibility, entertainment, easy listening and superficial attractiveness.


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## jegreenwood (Dec 25, 2015)

I like them, but less than I used to. I refer Corelli's set.

Interestingly (for me) the recordings I have of both sets are on modern instruments.


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## eugeneonagain (May 14, 2017)

Mandryka said:


> ...
> Compared to earlier music, I can't help think that this galant stuff the Italians, Händel, Lully, Purcell, liked so much reduced art to easy mass consumption, a preoccupation with surface, dumbing down in fact.


It probably is more popular/populist, but remember that Handel, unlike Bach, wasn't regularly collecting an easy monthly stipend as private kapellmeister to some toff. Handel had to either stage successful musical enterprises or be unemployed. These concerti were written when he was already well-established and used as, I suppose, divertimenti to bring in audiences.

Still I don't think he sacrificed his art. The well-known model for his concerti, those by Corelli, are a fine inspiration. I don't think either are dumbed-down work; popular doesn't necessarily equate to poor or simplistic. Bach adopted the Vivaldi model of concertos and I don't think it gets more popular than that.


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## jimsumner (Jul 7, 2013)

ArtMusic said:


> They are my favorite High Baroque concertos with the Brandenburgs. Period.


Agreed. There should be an option for "towering masterpieces."


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## Nevum (Nov 28, 2013)

Handel is the Beethoven of the Baroque era. A remarkable genius.


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## Klassik (Mar 14, 2017)

Mandryka said:


> The consort music writer who I would single out as deserving acknowledgement is Georg Muffat.


Muffat's concerti are quite enjoyable indeed. Another lesser known name to throw out is Johann David Heinichen. I find his Dresden Concerti to be highly enjoyable. I'd put it above Handel's Op. 6, but I would probably put Handel's Op. 4 above it too.


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

Klassik said:


> Muffat's concerti are quite enjoyable indeed. Another lesser known name to throw out is Johann David Heinichen. I find his Dresden Concerti to be highly enjoyable. I'd put it above Handel's Op. 6, but I would probably put Handel's Op. 4 above it too.


Thanks for the recommendation on Heinichen. I already knew about him as a music theorist because he wrote some fascinating stuff on the relationships between music and rhetoric. Nice to know he was a good composer as well.


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## Chronochromie (May 17, 2014)

Mandryka said:


> Yes. I see it as a general trend in high baroque, which JSB resisted heroically. There's a move in music from depth, complexity, challenge and spirituality to accessibility, entertainment, easy listening and superficial attractiveness.


I wonder where Rameau fits in that dichotomy.


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## Chronochromie (May 17, 2014)

Nevum said:


> Handel is the Beethoven of the Baroque era. A remarkable genius.


I'd give that "title" to Monteverdi, who transitioned from late Renaissance to the Baroque.


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## eugeneonagain (May 14, 2017)

That anyone would want to knock Handel borders on the absurd. It's a symptom of the misguided idea that popularity and/or success is a clear sign of artistic superficiality. The absurdity for me is that it is demolished by the fact that he was a massive talent and completely in control of his talent. 
Comparing him unfavourably with Bach is a failure really because the two more-or-less had similar development and demonstrated similar qualities. Comparisons with some deliberately obscure '"real" art musician' just tires me.


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## ArtMusic (Jan 5, 2013)

Casebearer said:


> I can't remember liking anything by Händel.


Good for you. Luckily the majority does not.


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## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

I chose undecided, because though I have two recordings of them, I never get around to listening to them. I'm going to have to fix that.


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## ArtMusic (Jan 5, 2013)

Manxfeeder said:


> I chose undecided, because though I have two recordings of them, I never get around to listening to them. I'm going to have to fix that.


Which recordings are those?


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## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

ArtMusic said:


> Which recordings are those?


Perlman with the Boston Baroque and the one on Naxos.


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## Klassik (Mar 14, 2017)

eugeneonagain said:


> That anyone would want to knock Handel borders on the absurd. It's a symptom of the misguided idea that popularity and/or success is a clear sign of artistic superficiality. The absurdity for me is that it is demolished by the fact that he was a massive talent and completely in control of his talent.
> Comparing him unfavourably with Bach is a failure really because the two more-or-less had similar development and demonstrated similar qualities. Comparisons with some deliberately obscure '"real" art musician' just tires me.


Everyone is going to have their preferences. Not liking someone purely because of their popularity is silly, but some people just don't like the sound of certain compositions. With Baroque music in particular, it must be remembered that, for better or for worse, the composers generally composed what they were expected to compose by their monetary bosses.

Also, Baroque music was out of fashion for many decades. I'm not sure about Handel, but even Bach and Vivaldi were mostly ignored for quite a while. Vivaldi's popularity only came back in the 20th century. There are many Baroque composers who were highly respected and popular back in their times who have not risen out of their period of obscurity. Take someone like Christoph Graupner. He was supposedly next in line to become the kantor in Leipzig after Telemann passed, but Graupner passed on the position as well and it went to Bach. Perhaps Graupner would have been more famous had he accepted, but we'll never know. The bottom line is that I enjoy Graupner's music. I probably do enjoy it more than I enjoy Handel's.


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## eugeneonagain (May 14, 2017)

Klassik said:


> ...With Baroque music in particular, it must be remembered that, for better or for worse, the composers generally composed what they were expected to compose by their monetary bosses.


That was why I mentioned Handel's position in London as basically an impresario. And yet he didn't just feed audiences popular tunes. I suppose it could be argued that other composers, freed from composing work demanded of their patrons, would have created something markedly different, but their private work is really not all that different.



Klassik said:


> Also, Baroque music was out of fashion for many decades. I'm not sure about Handel, but even Bach and Vivaldi were mostly ignored for quite a while. Vivaldi's popularity only came back in the 20th century. There are many Baroque composers who were highly respected and popular back in their times who have not risen out of their period of obscurity. Take someone like Christoph Graupner. He was supposedly next in line to become the kantor in Leipzig after Telemann passed, but Graupner passed on the position as well and it went to Bach. Perhaps Graupner would have been more famous had he accepted, but we'll never know. The bottom line is that I enjoy Graupner's music. I probably do enjoy it more than I enjoy Handel's.


There's this oft-repeated idea that Bach was totally neglected as a composer in his lifetime and was 'rediscovered' centuries later; even Wikipedia's article repeats it. One just has to ask though - by whom? Among composers? I think not. He was even known of and respected during the galant and classical periods, notably by Mozart. Beethoven played his keyboard works at recitals. Baroque music had ceased to be the dominant force in music, but it didn't suddenly disappear. 
Regarding the obscurity of some composers. There are always going to be some who become fixtures and others not. Sometimes it's undeserved and an unhappy accident that a composer's work just gets lost to time and neglect, but Handel is not known and respected by means of pure fluke. He almost single-handedly created (or popularised) the oratorio and an appetite for English vocal music.

There will indeed always be a preference element, but it's not just simple taste. Handel was a massive cultural figure of the 18thC (in more ways than one ), not some chancer who was merely fairly proficient and has an undeserved reputation.


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## Klassik (Mar 14, 2017)

eugeneonagain said:


> There's this oft-repeated idea that Bach was totally neglected as a composer in his lifetime and was 'rediscovered' centuries later; even Wikipedia's article repeats it. One just has to ask though - by whom? Among composers? I think not. He was even known of and respected during the galant and classical periods, notably by Mozart. Beethoven played his keyboard works at recitals. Baroque music had ceased to be the dominant force in music, but it didn't suddenly disappear.


There was a time where it seems that Bach was best known as being CPE's dad! That might have been his key to not becoming totally irrelevant in changing times! Some of these other composers who did not have prominent children or students just seemed to fade for a long time. Heck, Vivaldi's music faded from glory during his own lifetime and he died in poverty after having some popularity earlier on.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Mandryka said:


> Yes. I see it as a general trend in high baroque, which JSB resisted heroically. There's a move in music from depth, complexity, challenge and spirituality to accessibility, entertainment, easy listening and superficial attractiveness.


To be fair, depth, complexity, challenge and spirituality have never been generally expected of music, and certainly not of court composers of the 17th and 18th centuries. Bach, besides functioning more as a church than a court composer, was more or less uniquely gifted, and hardly a basis for comparison. I don't think he had to resist any temptation to dumb down. His gigantic brain just couldn't restrain itself, even if his congregations complained.


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## ArtMusic (Jan 5, 2013)

Manxfeeder said:


> Perlman with the Boston Baroque and the one on Naxos.


The Boston group recording should be excellent. I have BB playing other Baroque pieces on recording too.


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## Casebearer (Jan 19, 2016)

ArtMusic said:


> Good for you. Luckily the majority does not.


A bit unfriendly answer. You asked 'How well I liked the Opus 6 Concertos?', and I gave an honest answer. You didn't say the only answer you want is 'I like it'. I've listened to the opus 6 concerti and several other pieces by Handel but it's not for me. So, in fact, I can not remember liking anything by Händel and that's what I answered. One of my best friends is writing a book on Händels operas and travels all over Europe to see them (he must be nuts) and I see what they mean to him, but still, I don't like Händel. I like Bach by the way. Bach is a genius in my mind.


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## Casebearer (Jan 19, 2016)

eugeneonagain said:


> That anyone would want to knock Handel borders on the absurd. It's a symptom of the misguided idea that popularity and/or success is a clear sign of artistic superficiality. The absurdity for me is that it is demolished by the fact that he was a massive talent and completely in control of his talent.
> Comparing him unfavourably with Bach is a failure really because the two more-or-less had similar development and demonstrated similar qualities. Comparisons with some deliberately obscure '"real" art musician' just tires me.


 I don't want to 'knock on Händel'. I just don't like him and came across this poll with several options for liking and disliking him, so I chose the one that fits me. But since your post is begging for a reply: I have great taste in music and Händel doesn't reach my Top 1000. Good luck enjoying him, I don't mind at all. I'm just telling you people can think differently about him.


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## Chronochromie (May 17, 2014)

Woodduck said:


> To be fair, depth, complexity, challenge and spirituality have never been generally expected of music, and certainly not of court composers of the 17th and 18th centuries. Bach, besides functioning more as a church than a court composer, was more or less uniquely gifted, and hardly a basis for comparison. I don't think he had to resist any temptation to dumb down. His gigantic brain just couldn't restrain itself, even if his congregations complained.


I mean, he wanted in on a job in Dresden that would have required him writing Italian opera. He lost the post to Hasse, a now mostly forgotten composer. I imagine that if he had got the job, he would have dumbed down his music somewhat, but we'll never know.


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## Star (May 27, 2017)

As I like everything Handel wrote then yes


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## Star (May 27, 2017)

eugeneonagain said:


> That anyone would want to knock Handel borders on the absurd. It's a symptom of the misguided idea that popularity and/or success is a clear sign of artistic superficiality. The absurdity for me is that it is demolished by the fact that he was a massive talent and completely in control of his talent.
> Comparing him unfavourably with Bach is a failure really because the two more-or-less had similar development and demonstrated similar qualities. Comparisons with some deliberately obscure '"real" art musician' just tires me.


Yes agreed! Handel was an absolute master of many different styles of music. What's more it communicates. To say it is superficial shows no real understanding imo. Messiah and the St Matthew Passion are two great works - towering masterpieces. But quite different in style. To compare them is absurd.


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## eugeneonagain (May 14, 2017)

Casebearer said:


> I don't want to 'knock on Händel'. I just don't like him and came across this poll with several options for liking and disliking him, so I chose the one that fits me. But since your post is begging for a reply: I have great taste in music and Händel doesn't reach my Top 1000. Good luck enjoying him, I don't mind at all. I'm just telling you people can think differently about him.


Just 'knock', not 'knock _on_'. It's not begging for a reply. You are welcome to declare your great taste in music, everyone thinks that of themselves, but it's a rather arbitrary self-judgement. I'm not merely promoting Handel predicated upon personal taste or because he's my number one listening choice (he isn't), but objectively because he's a hugely accomplished and influential figure in music. No-one needs "good luck" to enjoy him.

It wasn't me who directly answered you, I was addressing the tiresome general reaction of: Bach = obvious intellectual genius; Handel = populist tune-smith. It's so often the opinion of critics who turn up waffling about subjects like "Handel's counterpoint" when 9/10 have zero knowledge of counterpoint writing.


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## Schumanniac (Dec 11, 2016)

Along with Bach's double violin concerto they are to me the pinnacle of baroque music. The concerti grossi may even edge out on Bach's Concerto as nearly every movement in this opus 6 are a worthy match to the amazing slow movement of Bach. Its a brilliantly evocative masterpiece, brimming with gorgeous melodies and profound emotions, effortless in its delivery. Something about Handel seems less like the result of work, and more a finished inspiration that arrived spontaneously allready fully polished, as if every note is only the natural conclusion, that it couldnt possibly be different.

Kudos to Resurrexit as well for mentioning the Organ Concerto op 4 as well :tiphat: A far too rarely spoken of piece for my liking.


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## Nevum (Nov 28, 2013)

Casebearer said:


> I don't want to 'knock on Händel'. I just don't like him and came across this poll with several options for liking and disliking him, so I chose the one that fits me. But since your post is begging for a reply: I have great taste in music and Händel doesn't reach my Top 1000. Good luck enjoying him, I don't mind at all. I'm just telling you people can think differently about him.


So what do you dislike SO much about Handel? Do you dislike other baroque composers? What do you think of Scarlatti, Albinioni? Telemmann? How about Bach? Is he as terrible as Handel?


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## Guest (Jun 12, 2017)

Bach is not in the same leaque as n'ímporte wich other baroque composer,just my opinion.


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## Chronochromie (May 17, 2014)

Nevum said:


> So what do you dislike SO much about Handel? Do you dislike other baroque composers? What do you think of Scarlatti, Albinioni? Telemmann? How about Bach? Is he as terrible as Handel?





Casebearer said:


> A bit unfriendly answer. You asked 'How well I liked the Opus 6 Concertos?', and I gave an honest answer. You didn't say the only answer you want is 'I like it'. I've listened to the opus 6 concerti and several other pieces by Handel but it's not for me. So, in fact, I can not remember liking anything by Händel and that's what I answered. One of my best friends is writing a book on Händels operas and travels all over Europe to see them (he must be nuts) and I see what they mean to him, but still, I don't like Händel. I like Bach by the way. Bach is a genius in my mind.


Your Handelitis may have blinded you to the post just above the one you're quoting. :tiphat:


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## eugeneonagain (May 14, 2017)

Could Handelitis be considered a worse affliction than Wagneritis or Mahleritis or Bruckneritis? It's definitely rarer than those other three, which I have heard lead to extreme blindness.


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## Chronochromie (May 17, 2014)

eugeneonagain said:


> Could Handelitis be considered a worse affliction than Wagneritis or Mahleritis or Bruckneritis? It's definitely rarer than those other three, which I have heard lead to extreme blindness.


They're all pretty bad. I haven't seen too many cases of Bruckneritis around here though, a ton of people like to mock him. He's the Romantic punching bag of the forum, like Vivaldi is the Baroque one and Cage and Glass the Modern ones.


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## Schumanniac (Dec 11, 2016)

eugeneonagain said:


> Could Handelitis be considered a worse affliction than Wagneritis or Mahleritis or Bruckneritis? It's definitely rarer than those other three, which I have heard lead to extreme blindness.


The Grey Plague itself is but a comon cold when compared to the dreaded Wagneritis  My heart goes out to its poor sufferers, God have mercy on their mystified, wayward souls slavishly drawn to his vulgarities like moth to a light.

(Dont take offense, poor souls, a man is mostly jesting)


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## eugeneonagain (May 14, 2017)

There is no way Bruckner is a punching bag. He's a darling of version-collecting amateur music critics. He occupies the place Mahler had in the late 1990s-early 2000s.


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## jdec (Mar 23, 2013)

eugeneonagain said:


> Could Handelitis be considered a worse affliction than Wagneritis or Mahleritis or Bruckneritis? It's definitely rarer than those other three, which I have heard lead to extreme blindness.


I have all of those afflictions and many more, Wagneritis, Mahleritis, Brahmsitis, Mozartitis, Beethovenitis, Bachitis, Schubertitis, Handelitis, Straussitis, Chopinitis, Lisztitis, Mendelssohnitis, Schumannitis, Tchaikovskytis, Bruckneritis, Debussytis, Shostakovichitis, Sibeliusitis, Prokofievitis, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc...and I feel great. No blindness whatsoever.


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## Chronochromie (May 17, 2014)

eugeneonagain said:


> There is no way Bruckner is a punching bag. He's a darling of version-collecting amateur music critics. He occupies the place Mahler had in the late 1990s-early 2000s.


Not on this forum he's not! Of course he has his fans here but not as many as Wagner or Mahler.


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## Chronochromie (May 17, 2014)

jdec said:


> I have all of those afflictions and many more, Wagneritis, Mahleritis, Brahmsitis, Mozartitis, Beethovenitis, Bachitis, Schubertitis, Handelitis, Straussitis, Chopinitis, Lisztitis, Mendelssohnitis, Schumannitis, Tchaikovskytis, Bruckneritis, Debussytis, Shostakovichitis, Sibeliusitis, Prokofievitis, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc...and I feel great. No blindness whatsoever.


Then it might be too late for you!


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## eugeneonagain (May 14, 2017)

jdec said:


> I have all of those afflictions and many more, Wagneritis, Mahleritis, Brahmsitis, Mozartitis, Beethovenitis, Bachitis, Schubertitis, Handelitis, Straussitis, Chopinitis, Lisztitis, Mendelssohnitis, Schumannitis, Tchaikovskytis, Bruckneritis, Debussytis, Shostakovichitis, Sibeliusitis, Prokofievitis, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc...and I feel great. No blindness whatsoever.


There's nothing for it but to administer the last rites.


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## ArtMusic (Jan 5, 2013)

The speed at which these concertos were composed is proof of genius! Granted that a couple of them were arrangements of existing works/themes, they were nonetheless polished to such an extent and originality that only Bach's Brandenburgs could reach.


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## Lindenbaum (Jun 8, 2017)

The concertos are tremendous--I can't decide whether I like this set or the Corelli's better. Handel is more various and adventurous, while Corelli has a certain balance and classic grace.

"[Handel] is the only person I would wish to see before I die, and the only person I would wish to be, were I not Bach."
-J. S. Bach

"He [Handel] is the master of us all."
-Joseph Haydn

"Handel, to him I bow the knee."
-Ludwig Van Beethoven (who wasn't generally big on bowing)

I think Handel's surface glitter and occasional simplicity are actually virtues. Not all music has to be super-subtle and complicated (which Handel can be and often is anyway, as discussed above). Handel has the gift of being able to say the perfect thing in the simplest way. If he wants he can be complicated and suave. Or he can just hit the nail right on the head with a very big and well aimed hammer. He doesn't have to hit twice.


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## Lindenbaum (Jun 8, 2017)

Locatelli's Op. 1 is also fantastic and should be much more famous. I think his Christmas Concerto (no. 8) might actually be my favorite baroque concerto, bar none.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

I like them so much, I recently ordered a set that I hope arrives soon after my successful tour and triumphant return from the Pacific Northwest, Victoria and Vancouver.


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## ArtMusic (Jan 5, 2013)

hpowders said:


> I like them so much, I recently ordered a set that I hope arrives soon after my successful tour and triumphant return from the Pacific Northwest, Victoria and Vancouver.


Splendid! Wish you success.


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## KRoad (Jun 1, 2012)

Op.6 (and Op.3) are just superb to my ears. I'd say his instrumental and orchestral music is even more remarkable when one considers that Händel wrote first and foremost for the voice - his prefered instrument.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

ArtMusic said:


> Splendid! Wish you success.


Thank you. It's great to get away, even if it puts me in close contact with the classical music "Indifferents".


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## ArtMusic (Jan 5, 2013)

KRoad said:


> Op.6 (and Op.3) are just superb to my ears. I'd say his instrumental and orchestral music is even more remarkable when one considers that Händel wrote first and foremost for the voice - his prefered instrument.


Agree entirely. Many of the Opus 6 (and Opus 3) movements are aria-like, that could have been sung by a voice but written for a violin part.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Klassik said:


> Muffat's concerti are quite enjoyable indeed. Another lesser known name to throw out is Johann David Heinichen. I find his Dresden Concerti to be highly enjoyable. I'd put it above Handel's Op. 6, but I would probably put Handel's Op. 4 above it too.


Thanks also from me for mentioning Heinichen, I checked out the concertos and they're fun! Is Reinhard Goebel the only person to have recorded them?


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## Klassik (Mar 14, 2017)

Mandryka said:


> Thanks also from me for mentioning Heinichen, I checked out the concertos and they're fun! Is Reinhard Goebel the only person to have recorded them?


Yes, they are very enjoyable in my opinion. I'm glad that you liked them. The Goebel recordings are certainly the best known ones (and they are very good, IMO), but there is at least one cpo CD that contains some Heinichen concertos performed by Epoca Barocca. There might be others, but these are the ones I'm familiar with. Hopefully someone else can provide more information.


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## ArtMusic (Jan 5, 2013)

Heinichen concertos are brilliant. I enjoy listening to the Koln recordings.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

I like them a lot, specially this set:


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## philoctetes (Jun 15, 2017)

Probably my favorite set of Baroque concertos. They are certainly grosso but adapt well on any scale. They miss the wind parts that Bach or Telemann might have used, but the music is essential, the kind that the world would be worse without.

Pinnock, Harnoncourt and Hogwood are all worthy, but the latter is my fave.


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## hoodjem (Feb 23, 2019)

Resurrexit said:


> The naysayers must have a bee in their bonnet. These pieces are a glorious outpouring of genius, full of invention, and together they constitute one of Handel's greatest contributions, more than worthy to stand beside the Brandenburg concertos. I've listened through all twelve in a single sitting multiple times and was left still wanting more.
> 
> The Concerti Grossi Op. 3 and the Organ Concertos Op. 4 are almost equally impressive as well.


Agree on all points here. 
Totally!


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## ansfelden (Jan 11, 2022)

most enjoyable they are!


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## Xisten267 (Sep 2, 2018)

I quite enjoy them. But my favorite composers of concertos in the Baroque era are still Vivaldi and Bach.


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

I love organ, also in baroque music, I love concertos, and yet these works do nothing for me. Go figure.


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

Given that this thread has turned into a discussion rather than "mainly a poll", I moved it to the main forum.


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## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

Art Rock said:


> I love organ, also in baroque music, I love concertos, and yet these works do nothing for me. Go figure.


That's easy, op.6 has no organ, except optionally as continuo 

It's my favorite baroque concerto collection; I prefer about 4 of Bach's concerti (E major violin and double, 5th and maybe 3rd or 4th Brandenburg) but I tend to prefer the variety and the "mixed style" vs. Bach's Vivaldian style (or actual Vivaldi) with too many woodwinds that don't mix well 
I also think that they have less to do with Corelli than is often claimed. It's true that Corelli's music remained very popular (his works supposedly were the most frequently re-printed music until the late 18th century). But when one listens to both op.6 sets they are actually rather different; Handel's have far more dramatic gestures, contrasts and variety of forms. (I don't dislike Corelli, but I find the concerti a bit boring and think his style works better in the chamber music.) I think they are better described as in a "mixed style", as is a lot of Bach and Telemann (although Bach mostly stuck to either 3 movement "italian concerto" or ouverture-suite he obviously also transformed the Vivaldian style in other aspects)

FWIW Handel did write several concerti/movements in a style closer to Vivaldi, some in op.3. op.3/2 is a bit like the Brandenburg 1, a 3 movement "italian concerto" followed by two dance movements)
In fact the oldest, the first? (has such unisono 16th runs in strings) movement of the "sonata à 5" Bb major, was written in Italy even before Vivaldi published his op.3 that became a paradigm for Bach's and other late baroque composers's concerti but Handel had probably encountered Vivaldian music before its publication. 

In any case Handel was always very quick on the uptake for new fashions and styles. An instrumental piece from the Italian oratorio "Il trionfo..." might have been the first concerto style piece with organ solo ever and the 2nd "suite" of the 1720 suites (written much earlier than 1720, maybe already in Italy) must also have been one of the earliest examples of a keyboard piece using the 4 movement "Corelli church sonata" form. Bach apparently never used this form in his major keyboard collections (always "french style" dance suites or 3 mvt. sonata, as in the organ trio sonatas) but I think there is also a similar one among the odd suites besides collections and of course he used it in chamber music.


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

Kreisler jr said:


> That's easy, op.6 has no organ, except optionally as continuo


Heh, I must have mixed up two threads. I could have sworn this was a thread about the Handel organ concertos. Anyway, don't like the Opus Six concertos either 😈.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

Kreisler jr said:


> In any case Handel was always very quick on the uptake for new fashions and styles. An instrumental piece from the Italian oratorio "Il trionfo..." might have been the first concerto style piece with organ solo ever and the 2nd "suite" of the 1720 suites (written much earlier than 1720, maybe already in Italy) must also have been one of the earliest examples of a keyboard piece using the 4 movement "Corelli church sonata" form. Bach apparently never used this form in his major keyboard collections (always "french style" dance suites or 3 mvt. sonata, as in the organ trio sonatas) but I think there is also a similar one among the odd suites besides collections and of course he used it in chamber music.


As was Bach, just in a different way.
"The recitativo stromamento, an expression of deepest agitation and despair, was part of opera even in the seventeenth century; but it was Bach who introduced it to instrumental music. The Chromatic Fantasy is probably the first instrumental work consciously to attempt the portrayal of an emotional state—grief—from a first-person perspective. Vivaldi's concerto Grosso Mogul, opus 3, has a recitative section that is similar in this regard, and Bach himself set a version of it for organ as BWV 594, but this is at most a hint of what is to come."
<'Johann Sebastian Bach: Life and Work', By Martin Geck · 2006, pg. 489-490>


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

For me the Op 6 concertos are among the very greatest Baroque orchestral sets. Comparisons with other sets are made in this thread (for example, those by Heinichen) and many of them are very enjoyable. But only works by Bach and perhaps Telemann have the "staying power" (the capacity to thrill me again and again and again over decades) of Handel's concertos for me and Handel's Op 6 are the best he wrote. 

I am less sure that Handel's Op 6 have been so well served by recordings, though. Marriner's first set was superb as was Harnoncourt's. Most of the rest are either too syrupy for me or too unremittingly fast paced. Marriner and Harnoncourt found much more in the music than most.


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