# Symphony-Writing



## MelloHero

Me again,

I've recently got this itch to start another, bigger piece, like a symphony. As my _finished_ musical oeuvre consists of three pieces written in composition class in 2009 and a smattering of marching band arrangements, this will be a huge investment and learning experience, but it sounds exciting, even despite all the work.

My question for everyone is, where do I start? It's rather like looking at a blank canvas on which I can paint or scribble anything at all; I just can't think of what to do. Do you find a piece to come into being by itself, or do you start by asking, "What do I want to say with this piece," and working it out from there? They say inspiration will only come if it finds you working, but surely you must start somewhere, no?

What's your typical process for beginning a symphony or large-scale work of your preference?


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## Ramako

What I generally count as my first composition was a symphony. I knew that triads existed - you might want to know more than that . I have started several since (finished one) but generally been dissatisfied. I know I want to write a long symphony in the foreseeable future - perhaps of Mahlerian scale.

I will probably start it (as I have started my longer chamber works) by coming up with an overall "idea". Yes that sort of means structure, but I mean more the overall journey of the piece. My current quartet I am thinking of in more technical ways though. Often I will come up with a large-scale structure with a theme or motif I like put in somewhere.

I can't pretend to set a good example, though. I think you have the most important part already - the desire to write it. Obsess, and persevere. I wrote a lengthy flute sonata recently which I spent months on. I'm not sure I like it that much now, but I learnt a vast amount writing it (I was coming to grips with new ideas) and I think I write much better. So even if you don't like it while writing it (which will definitely happen at some point) finish it, and you won't regret it. Finishing things is rewarding in itself (I hate unfinished works - I have far too many of them).


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## StevenOBrien

You say that you've taken composition classes. To what extent are you educated? Harmony? Counterpoint? Orchestration?

Firstly, I recommend this book to you: http://books.google.ie/books/about/Classical_Form.html?id=tEKf_lIk8MsC&redir_esc=y

I'm not suggesting that you follow the rules and forms laid out in this book religiously, but it's good to know them well and understand why they're used. Once you've gotten through that, just mess around and see what comes out.

If this is your first attempt at composing something orchestral, I'd recommend starting with some smaller pieces. Perhaps write a small orchestral suite and post it here for feedback. I'd recommend checking out this guy on Youtube to begin to learn how to orchestrate properly: http://www.youtube.com/user/OrchestrationOnline

There's also this wonderful book on orchestration by Samuel Adler, which in my opinion is absolutely vital if you want to become serious about orchestral writing: http://books.google.ie/books?id=ZYp...en&sa=X&ei=UbAOUOTAJo2LhQfOtICABg&redir_esc=y

The most important advice I can give to you is to spend a lot of time listening to symphonies by your favorite composers. Buy the scores, read through them as you listen. Study them inside out, look for lectures, reading material. From time to time, you should also venture outside your comfort zone and listen to symphonies you're unfamiliar with.

As for starting out; for me, with any composition, there are three ways of doing things:

1. An idea comes into my head and I write it down, the music that follows practically composes itself, and in the long run, I know where I'm going because I've decided on the form beforehand. (Best results)
2. I improvise at the piano until I find an idea that I like, I write it down and the music again composes itself.
3. I choose a random key and write out a generic chord progression with some constructed rhythms, and rely on whatever naturally follows to carry the piece. (This should only ever be done if you're in a hurry)


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## MelloHero

StevenOBrien said:


> You say that you've taken composition classes. To what extent are you educated? Harmony? Counterpoint? Orchestration?


I took a year as a music education major, but I've got books and things which help fill in the gaps. I've got a full year of theory, so harmony and chord progressions borrowed chords and all that, but I didn't get to the parts about French and German and Italian sixths and all that. Orchestration, I've been getting steadily better at through my marching band writing. I've got a book by William Spencer-Pierce on that topic, and I think I'm finally breaking my chronic thin sound. The detailed part of the orchestration will probably come later (unless I should decide on instrumentation now), and with the help of Rimsky-Korsakov's and Adler's books on the topic. I intend to write most of this in a short-score format.



> The most important advice I can give to you is to spend a lot of time listening to symphonies by your favorite composers. Buy the scores, read through them as you listen. Study them inside out, look for lectures, reading material. From time to time, you should also venture outside your comfort zone and listen to symphonies you're unfamiliar with.


It was actually listening to Mahler that I got the idea that a symphony should be my next composition! I'll have to listen to some others too; I haven't listened to actual Classical or early-Romantic composers in a long time.



> As for starting out; for me, with any composition, there are three ways of doing things:
> 
> 1. An idea comes into my head and I write it down, the music that follows practically composes itself, and in the long run, I know where I'm going because I've decided on the form beforehand. (Best results)
> 2. I improvise at the piano until I find an idea that I like, I write it down and the music again composes itself.
> 3. I choose a random key and write out a generic chord progression with some constructed rhythms, and rely on whatever naturally follows to carry the piece. (This should only ever be done if you're in a hurry)


That method number 3 sounds like one of the assignments my composition teacher gave me to break me out of the I-IV-V-I trap that I had been in before taking the course, actually.

Lately I've been on the lookout for melodies that sound interesting and I've been writing them down, but without any statement I'd want my piece to make, I don't know where I want to begin. Maybe that's where I should start; any advice on how to find a statement or message for the piece to deliver?


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## MelloHero

Ugh, I've reached the pre-composition point where I've always given up before. I have a specific sound in my head that I want, but I can't actually make any music that sounds like that. I want my first theme to be dissatisfied, jagged, and unstable in terms of rhythm. I have never been able to write a good theme with short, jagged notes, but it's what I feel I need.

I've been writing down little things that come to mind, but I have nothing that feels like I can develop it easily. Do I need to sit down and just mess about until the mediocre stuff is gone from my brain, or is there something else I should be doing? I've had no shortage of the emotions which I want to channel lately, but it just won't come.


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## StevenOBrien

MelloHero said:


> Ugh, I've reached the pre-composition point where I've always given up before. I have a specific sound in my head that I want, but I can't actually make any music that sounds like that. I want my first theme to be dissatisfied, jagged, and unstable in terms of rhythm. I have never been able to write a good theme with short, jagged notes, but it's what I feel I need.
> 
> I've been writing down little things that come to mind, but I have nothing that feels like I can develop it easily. Do I need to sit down and just mess about until the mediocre stuff is gone from my brain, or is there something else I should be doing? I've had no shortage of the emotions which I want to channel lately, but it just won't come.


I don't fully understand. Do you have an actual idea in your head and just can't figure out how to write it down? I'd recommend score copying exercises for this.


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## MelloHero

Sorry about the confusion... I meant that I had a general sound I wanted for my first subject group, but I couldn't actually come up with a good idea with that sound. I have started something, but it's becoming lyrical instead of disjunct like I had intended. Maybe I'll let the music write itself and see what I get instead of what I had planned for.


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## juergen

MelloHero said:


> Maybe I'll let the music write itself and see what I get instead of what I had planned for.


That's my preferred way of working. I just take what I get, even if it is something different from what I originally wanted. It's just a question of effort and benefit: Which is easier? To change the result or to change the plans? But of course that only works if you can work freely, not when it comes to a commisioned work.


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