# Bob Dylan wins Nobel prize for literature!



## Mal (Jan 1, 2016)

Is he the first musician to win a Nobel prize? What albums or songs of his, if any, deserve the title "classical masterpieces"? This award had me questioning the exact meaning of "classical". The Oxford Dictionary if Music has two pertinent definitions: "regarded as having permanent value" and "the opposite of light or popular music". Dylan is certainly popular, but is he light? Is it too early to tell if his music has permanent value? This is a prize for literature, so Dylan must be taken as a serious writer. Can he be a serious writer without also being a serious musician?


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## LOLWUT (Oct 12, 2016)

And the Colombian President won the Nobel Peace Prize. It's almost like the Swedes have given up and are now just trolling.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Yeah. This is a new low for "literature" prizes.

So many terrific authors out there.

What the heck were they smoking?


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## SiegendesLicht (Mar 4, 2012)

The lowering of standards has been a universal phenomenon for quite some time now. No surprise here.


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## Sloe (May 9, 2014)

LOLWUT said:


> And the Colombian President won the Nobel Peace Prize. It's almost like the Swedes have given up and are now just trolling.


The Nobel Peace Prize is handled by Norway.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Sloe said:


> The Nobel Peace Prize is handled by Norway.


An i-Grieg-ious mistake!


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## SiegendesLicht (Mar 4, 2012)

hpowders said:


> Yeah. This is a new low for "literature" prizes.
> 
> So many terrific authors out there.
> 
> What the heck were they smoking?


As members of NATO, the Norwegians have been inhaling the American spirit for quite a while now.


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## Antiquarian (Apr 29, 2014)

Didn't Obama win the Nobel peace prize? For becoming POTUS? It was at that moment that I realised that the Nobel was a political (in the broadest terms) award, and not one of merit. But I suppose I'm not being very PC here...


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## SiegendesLicht (Mar 4, 2012)

Antiquarian said:


> Didn't Obama win the Nobel peace prize? For becoming POTUS? It was at that moment that I realised that the Nobel was a political (in the broadest terms) award, and not one of merit. But I suppose I'm not being very PC here...


I wanted to comment on that, but I'd rather keep silent....


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## LOLWUT (Oct 12, 2016)

Antiquarian said:


> Didn't Obama win the Nobel peace prize? For becoming POTUS? It was at that moment that I realised that the Nobel was a political (in the broadest terms) award, and not one of merit. But I suppose I'm not being very PC here...


Trump voter spotted.


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## Sloe (May 9, 2014)

Antiquarian said:


> Didn't Obama win the Nobel peace prize? For becoming POTUS? It was at that moment that I realised that the Nobel was a political (in the broadest terms) award, and not one of merit. But I suppose I'm not being very PC here...


Yes he did.
Also Al Gore and the European Union have won.


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## Antiquarian (Apr 29, 2014)

LOLWUT said:


> Trump voter spotted.


HaHaHaHaHa!

Boris Johnson voter rather... wait...oh yeah, they're the same person.
(Just Kidding:devil


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## Bayreuth (Jan 20, 2015)

Simply ridiculous. Even though I think that there are literally hundreds of great living writers who deserve this award more than Dylan does, I'm not outraged with the fact that a musician could win this award. The problem with this is not that they've awarded a musician-songwriter with the Nobel Prize for literature; the problem is that they've awarded the most popular songwriter, not the best one. They are setting a seriously dangerous precedent with this.


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## Nereffid (Feb 6, 2013)

Dammit, where have my pearls gone? I need to clutch them _right now._


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## amfortas (Jun 15, 2011)

Antiquarian said:


> Didn't Obama win the Nobel peace prize? For becoming POTUS? It was at that moment that I realised that the Nobel was a political (in the broadest terms) award, and not one of merit. But I suppose I'm  not being very PC here...


Though I've been largely an Obama supporter, I have acknowledge he won the peace prize for one reason alone: NOT being George W. Bush.


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## Strange Magic (Sep 14, 2015)

I, for one, am delighted--delighted--with the Dylan selection. Dylan's lyrics have always been compelling, innovative, playful, fun, funny, deeply serious, and have reached and affected hundreds of millions of people over how many decades now? The Ship has Come In.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Antiquarian said:


> Didn't Obama win the Nobel peace prize? For becoming POTUS? It was at that moment that I realised that the Nobel was a political (in the broadest terms) award, and not one of merit. But I suppose I'm not being very PC here...


Yes, he did, soon after being inaugurated, without ever having to do anything remotely connected to promoting world peace.

The system is rigged.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Perhaps I will win for "Peaceful, Pithy Posting". Every time the phone rings, my heart skips a few beats.


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## Zhdanov (Feb 16, 2016)

the thing is they just are killing the Nobel prize as such by compromising it like this.


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## amfortas (Jun 15, 2011)

*Bob Dylan wins Nobel prize for literature!*

How does it feel?


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Strange Magic said:


> I, for one, am delighted--delighted--with the Dylan selection. Dylan's lyrics have always been compelling, innovative, playful, fun, funny, deeply serious, and have reached and affected hundreds of millions of people over how many decades now? The Ship has Come In.


Since when are "lyrics" literature?


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## Strange Magic (Sep 14, 2015)

amfortas said:


> *Bob Dylan wins Nobel prize for literature!*
> 
> How does it feel?


It feels very, very good.


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## Strange Magic (Sep 14, 2015)

hpowders said:


> Since when are "lyrics" literature?


Whoever ruled that lyrics weren't literature?


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## Zhdanov (Feb 16, 2016)

Sloe said:


> The Nobel Peace Prize is handled by Norway.


the question is who handles Norway?


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## Chronochromie (May 17, 2014)

But are his lyrics good literature?


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## schigolch (Jun 26, 2011)

_Hey ho, let's go! hey ho, let's go!_
_Hey ho, let's go! hey ho, let's go!_

_They're forming in straight line_
_They're going through a tight wind_
_The kids are losing their minds_
_The blitzkrieg bop_

_They're piling in the back seat_
_They're generating steam heat_
_Pulsating to the back beat_
_The blitzkrieg bop_

_Hey ho, let's go_
_Shoot'em in the back now_
_What they want, I don't know_
_They're all revved up and ready to go_

_They're forming in straight line_
_They're going through a tight wind_
_The kids are losing their minds_
_The blitzkrieg bop_

_They're piling in the back seat_
_They're generating steam heat_
_Pulsating to the back beat_
_The blitzkrieg bop_

_Hey ho, let's go_
_Shoot'em in the back now_
_What they want, I don't know_
_They're all revved up and ready to go_


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## Strange Magic (Sep 14, 2015)

Jerusalem
BY WILLIAM BLAKE
And did those feet in ancient time
Walk upon Englands mountains green:
And was the holy Lamb of God,
On Englands pleasant pastures seen!

And did the Countenance Divine,
Shine forth upon our clouded hills?
And was Jerusalem builded here,
Among these dark Satanic Mills?

Bring me my Bow of burning gold:
Bring me my arrows of desire:
Bring me my Spear: O clouds unfold!
Bring me my Chariot of fire!

I will not cease from Mental Fight,
Nor shall my sword sleep in my hand:
Till we have built Jerusalem,
In Englands green & pleasant Land.

This might make a good song......


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## Flamme (Dec 30, 2012)

Ws just listening to his songs yesterday, was well worth it...!


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## isorhythm (Jan 2, 2015)

Antiquarian said:


> Didn't Obama win the Nobel peace prize? For becoming POTUS?


Yeah, that was goofy.

I'm a Dylan fan but his lyrics don't stand up as literature on their own. What a strange choice.


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## Chronochromie (May 17, 2014)

Antiquarian said:


> Didn't Obama win the Nobel peace prize? For becoming POTUS? It was at that moment that I realised that the Nobel was a political (in the broadest terms) award, and not one of merit. But I suppose I'm not being very PC here...


They gave the Nobel Peace Price to Kissinger too...


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## brianvds (May 1, 2013)

Mal said:


> Is he the first musician to win a Nobel prize?


Nope. Einstein played violin...


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## Strange Magic (Sep 14, 2015)

isorhythm said:


> Yeah, that was goofy.
> 
> I'm a Dylan fan but his lyrics don't stand up as literature on their own. What a strange choice.


l

Fact, or Opinion? The Nobel Committee appears to have a different view, and has decided to recognize someone whose work has actually reached, and been well received by, very large numbers of people. There is a whiff of...something....in the air, in all this tut-tutting over the selection of Bob Dylan, and it makes me smile.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

Bayreuth said:


> the problem is that they've awarded the most popular songwriter, not the best one. They are setting a seriously dangerous precedent with this.


"Best" is entirely subjective. But I happen to think Dylan is a great songwriter whose music and lyrics have moved and influenced millions of people, and artists alike. Do I think he's a sophisticated composer/songwriter/musician like Joni Mitchell? No! His music is simpler. But his influence is undeniable. And Dylan would probably be the first to tell you he doesn't consider himself a great literary figure, he's just a songwriter, so people shouldn't take these awards so seriously. I'd rather see Dylan awarded a prize than a criminal like Henry Kissinger. Kissinger and Nixon got the president of Chile murdered, and he gets awarded the Nobel Peace Prize. WTF?


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## Chronochromie (May 17, 2014)

A thing I've noticed is many Dylan fans offended when some even slightly question their notion that his work can stand as great literature and dismissing those people as snobs.


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## Strange Magic (Sep 14, 2015)

starthrower said:


> "Best" is entirely subjective. But I happen to think Dylan is a great songwriter whose music and lyrics have moved and influenced millions of people, and artists alike. Do I think he's a sophisticated composer/songwriter/musician like Joni Mitchell? No! His music is simpler. But his influence is undeniable. And Dylan would probably be the first to tell you he doesn't consider himself a great literary figure, he's just a songwriter, so people shouldn't take these awards so seriously. I'd rather see Dylan awarded a prize than a criminal like Henry Kissinger. Kissinger and Nixon got the president of Chile murdered, and he gets awarded the Nobel Peace Prize. WTF?


What if, next year, the Committee awards it to Joni Mitchell? There may be a wave of cardiac arrests and seizures here on TC. End of the World!

Right on about Kissinger and Nixon.


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## Strange Magic (Sep 14, 2015)

Chronochromie said:


> A thing I've noticed is many Dylan fans offended when some even slightly question their notion that his work can stand as great literature and dismissing those people as snobs.


How well does that shoe fit?


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

I hope Weird Al is considered next year.


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## Chronochromie (May 17, 2014)

Strange Magic said:


> How well does that shoe fit?


To some better than others I suppose.

Me? I don't care much for Dylan or the Nobel prices, but Dylan winning has created interesting discussion about the possibility of lyrics being art and literature. I think they can be, and when I asked on the previous page wether his lyrics made for good literature I was actually asking seriously, to his fans too. No one _has_ to answer, of course.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

Strange Magic said:


> What if, next year, the Committee awards it to Joni Mitchell? There may be a wave of cardiac arrests and seizures here on TC. End of the World!


Ha, Ha! I think people tend to forget how different things were before people like Dylan, and others of his generation came along. Young people didn't really have much of a voice or influence on society and culture. And popular songs, although they were musically sophisticated and clever, were basically apolitical, and didn't address any of the pressing social issues. People like Dylan changed all that for good. And it really started in the 50s with the beat poets and authors.


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## mmsbls (Mar 6, 2011)

Just a reminder that this thread is about a musician (songwriter) nominated for the Nobel. This is not a place to make purely political posts.


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## Kieran (Aug 24, 2010)

Bayreuth said:


> Simply ridiculous. Even though I think that there are literally hundreds of great living writers who deserve this award more than Dylan does, I'm not outraged with the fact that a musician could win this award. The problem with this is not that they've awarded a musician-songwriter with the Nobel Prize for literature; the problem is that they've awarded the most popular songwriter, not the best one. They are setting a seriously dangerous precedent with this.


The "most popular one"?

Who? Kanye? beyonce?

Bob Dylan deserves this. Only curious thing is why they took so long...


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## znapschatz (Feb 28, 2016)

Antiquarian said:


> Didn't Obama win the Nobel peace prize? For becoming POTUS? It was at that moment that I realised that the Nobel was a political (in the broadest terms) award, and not one of merit. But I suppose I'm not being very PC here...


Definitely political, but I believe aspirational rather than based on some definition of proven merit. In a world of increasing polarization and tension with the potential for war and disaster, I must give the Nobel-ity a pass for trying to frame Obama as a potential peacemaker. Nice try, but other forces are also in play. It remains to be seen how effective it will have been.


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## Kieran (Aug 24, 2010)

znapschatz said:


> Definitely political, but I believe aspirational rather than based on some definition of proven merit. In a world of increasing polarization and tension with the potential for war and disaster, I must give the Nobel-ity a pass for trying to frame Obama as a potential peacemaker.


Why give them a pass? It was plainly cynical, and irrelevant...


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## znapschatz (Feb 28, 2016)

starthrower said:


> Ha, Ha! I think people tend to forget how different things were before people like Dylan, and others of his generation came along. Young people didn't really have much of a voice or influence on society and culture. And popular songs, although they were musically sophisticated and clever, were basically apolitical, and didn't address any of the pressing social issues. People like Dylan changed all that for good. And it really started in the 50s with the beat poets and authors.


That, I believe, is the essence of this award. Dylan's songs, for whatever their qualities (mixed) were in some part influential in advancing an agenda of peace, and that is what the Nobel prize is mostly concerned with. I can think of several Dylan's contemporaries who could be considered musically his equal or better, but his were the songs that connected with the youth, and some of the grownups, like me.


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## Kieran (Aug 24, 2010)

isorhythm said:


> Yeah, that was goofy.
> 
> I'm a Dylan fan but his lyrics don't stand up as literature on their own. What a strange choice.


Plays don't stand up on their own - they've got to be performed. Playwrights have won the Nobel Prize.

Dylan has expressed almost all the feelings of life in a vivid, imaginative, economic, beautiful way, in the popular form of song. People may haggle over whether or not his work has merit, is "great" or "classical", but they can haggle that over any of the previous winners. But...has he altered the way songs are written, from the viewpoint of lyrics and words? Has he brought poetry - and poets - into song? Has he influenced and enhanced the culture in a daring and brilliant way - through words?

And isn't his autobiography a book you'd stall over to savour the writing?

He's a one-off, and I'm glad they gave him this award...


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## arpeggio (Oct 4, 2012)

For me this tread is very amusing.

It is amusing to read the posts of those who are offended by the those who are offended 

This is what happens when one has the unfettered right to express their opinion all of the time no matter what, a complete lack of respect and civility.

And yet there are many members here who are still clueless on why many key members have left. 

I just remembered. Good riddance to them. They were nothing be a bunch of cry babies who like to play the victim card :devil:


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## Guest (Oct 13, 2016)

hpowders said:


> Since when are "lyrics" literature?


Since words were sung to music. I think you'll find that goes back a very long time.


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## Mal (Jan 1, 2016)

'.. his craft is part of a tradition that harkens back to the ancient Greeks: lyric poetry. "What Bob Dylan does is something that goes back further than any other genre of literature," says David Yaffe, a professor of humanities at Syracuse University'

http://qz.com/808527/bob-dylan-nobe...n-because-his-lyrics-echo-the-ancient-greeks/

'Packed with allusion and multi-layered meaning, songs like "Desolation Row" and "Mr. Tambourine Man" are fodder for critics like the legendary Christopher Ricks, who argued for Dylan's status as a poet in Lyrics: 1962-2001. "A day doesn't go by when I don't listen to Dylan or at least think about him and his art," Ricks told The New York Times when his 2003 book Dylan's Visions of Sin came out.

Of course not all Dylan's songs require deep critical processing, which is probably why his literary cred may not be immediately obvious. But as Yaffe points out, even Shakespeare was a playwright for the people. "He wrote not only for royalty but he wrote for the rabble in the pit," he says. Dylan, too, it turns out, has managed to appeal to boomers, bohemian wannabes, and literary critics alike.'


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## clara s (Jan 6, 2014)

strange magic said:


> jerusalem
> by william blake
> and did those feet in ancient time
> walk upon englands mountains green:
> ...


and William Blake would definitely make a perfect nobel prize winner

this poem is an anthem


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Strange Magic said:


> Whoever ruled that lyrics weren't literature?


I did...a few years ago on another forum after condemning "Does she feel just what I feel and how am I to know it's really real?"


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

isorhythm said:


> Yeah, that was goofy.
> 
> I'm a Dylan fan but *his lyrics don't stand up as literature on their own. What a strange choice.*


*
*

Thank you!


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## EddieRUKiddingVarese (Jan 8, 2013)

hpowders said:


> An i-Grieg-ious mistake!


Maybe this was a sneaking one done by Norway to confuse the World and Bob>

Must help if you mumble lyrics that's all I'll say!


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

EddieRUKiddingVarese said:


> Maybe this was a sneaking one done by Norway to confuse the World and Bob>
> 
> Must help if you mumble lyrics that's all I'll say!


He's been performing on borrowed time for years. A shadow of his former self.

The closest Dylan should have gotten to "Noble" is a balloon full of Helium.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

So who's next in 2017 for Nobel in literature, Paul Simon, now that Charles Dickens is dead?


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## Figleaf (Jun 10, 2014)

KenOC said:


> I hope Weird Al is considered next year.


His song "Bob" is the best Dylan song of all IMO...

I think Dylan's lyrics have been read as stand-alone poems for some forty years at least: when I was a child my dad had a very well thumbed paperback book of Dylan lyrics, set out like poems, without any music. It had a plain yellow cover, I think. Personally I'm more of a Leonard Cohen sort of girl: he's wittier, less pompous and doesn't put on a silly voice.


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## EddieRUKiddingVarese (Jan 8, 2013)

My vote would go to Spinal Tap, you know their works such as Big Bottom are a masterpiece........ and will outlive dear old Bob

The bigger the cushion, the sweeter the pushin'
That's what I said
The looser the waistband, the deeper the quicksand
Or, so I've read.
My baby fits me like a flesh tuxedo
I love to sink her with my pink torpedo.
Big bottom
Big bottom
Talk about bum cakes
My gal's got 'em.
Big bottom
Drive me out of my mind.
How can I leave this behind?


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

arpeggio said:


> For me this tread is very amusing.
> 
> It is amusing to read the posts of those who are offended by the those who are offended
> 
> ...


I'm glad you're back, but you are unfortunately still going on about departed members.

As for Dylan, I don't personally have a problem with him being awarded for literature. However, it is an odd selection.


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## StlukesguildOhio (Dec 25, 2006)

"Literature" is not limited to novels... although we wouldn't know that if we looked at most of those "30 Books You Must Read Before You Die" or "100 Greatest Books Ever" lists. Poetry, plays/theater, screen-plays, essays, journalism, theology, history, criticism... and yes, lyrics/librettos are forms of literature... and at times they can be great literature. The announcement of Dylan's award stated, 'The Nobel Prize in Literature 2016 was awarded to Bob Dylan "for having created new poetic expressions within the great American song tradition".' This seems a legitimate argument to me. Dylan is one of the few song-writers whose lyrics can and do stand on their own... and I say this as one who has argued repeatedly that most song lyrics... even many within the realm of Classical Music... do not stand on their own as fine poetry. 

I understand the argument that there are many "pure" poets and novelists and short-story writers who were passed over in favor of Dylan. But over the history of the Nobel Prize there have been many truly great writers who were ignored or passed over, including: James Joyce, Leo Tolstoy, Anton Chekhov, Marcel Proust, Henrik Ibsen, Henry James, Italo Calvino, J.L. Borges, etc.... 

The Nobel Prize "for Literature" has rarely ever been awarded solely based upon purely literary merits. It has often been awarded based to a greater of lesser extent upon non-literary considerations... including politics and cultural issues. 

While Derek Walcott was not undeserving of recognition, he was clearly and admittedly selected for the award in 1992... on the 500th anniversary of Columbus' "discovery" of the Americas... as a representative of the Americas of non-Spanish and non-Anglo heritage. Toni Morrison was selected for both her merits as a writer and as a representative of African American culture. Obviously, the Nobel Committee makes some attempt to recognize writers from an array of cultural backgrounds as well as writers working across a vast spectrum of what might be termed "literature". 

Personally, I'd like to see the Nobel Prize widen its scope of cultural recognitions further and include awards for Music, Film, and the Visual Arts among other areas.


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## StlukesguildOhio (Dec 25, 2006)

Originally Posted by Mal View Post
Is he the first musician to win a Nobel prize?

Brian- Nope. Einstein played violin... 

Actually, the electric violin... at least according to Dylan (Desolation Row).


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## StlukesguildOhio (Dec 25, 2006)

Chronochromie said:


> A thing I've noticed is many Dylan fans offended when some even slightly question their notion that his work can stand as great literature and dismissing those people as snobs.


Hmmm... not unlike those who bristle with righteous indignation if someone suggests that perhaps Schoenberg or Xenakis really aren't all that.


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## Blancrocher (Jul 6, 2013)

EddieRUKiddingVarese said:


> My vote would go to Spinal Tap, you know their works such as Big Bottom are a masterpiece........ and will outlive dear old Bob
> 
> The bigger the cushion, the sweeter the pushin'
> That's what I said
> ...


Pretty great--but I'd favor Zappa's "Don't Eat the Yellow Snow Suite." Blows Dylan out of the water, that's for sure.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Figleaf said:


> His song "Bob" is the best Dylan song of all IMO...
> 
> I think Dylan's lyrics have been read as stand-alone poems for some forty years at least: when I was a child my dad had a very well thumbed paperback book of Dylan lyrics, set out like poems, without any music. It had a plain yellow cover, I think. Personally I'm more of a Leonard Cohen sort of girl: he's wittier, less pompous and doesn't put on a silly voice.


I will have to review Dylan's lyrics and see if he can pass through this particular committee of one.


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## Chronochromie (May 17, 2014)

StlukesguildOhio said:


> Hmmm... not unlike those who bristle with righteous indignation if someone suggests that perhaps Schoenberg or Xenakis really aren't all that.


Sure, I don't approve of that either. But I do also remember some who suggested such opinions in a less than civil manner. But we shouldn't mention Schoenberg again here or the thread could...oops!


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## brianvds (May 1, 2013)

Figleaf said:


> Personally I'm more of a Leonard Cohen sort of girl: he's wittier, less pompous and doesn't put on a silly voice.


I'm a Cohen fan too, but his ever deepening voice is a worrying trend. Another album or too and only whales will be able to hear him.


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## Casebearer (Jan 19, 2016)

I think we should have a Nobel prize for the best Tweet(er). In that case I would start tweeting, I think I would say, let's say:

Tweet
Twee twee tweet

Twee Tweet
Tweet


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## brianvds (May 1, 2013)

StlukesguildOhio said:


> The Nobel Prize "for Literature" has rarely ever been awarded solely based upon purely literary merits. It has often been awarded based to a greater of lesser extent upon non-literary considerations... including politics and cultural issues.


Same thing happens with the peace prize. The chemistry, physics and physiology prizes are perhaps less political.

The problem is, one really has to wait a century or so before it becomes clear who the great writers and artists really were, or indeed even the great scientists (it's noteworthy that Einstein did not win his Nobel for the achievement one would expect!).

There is inevitably going to be an arbitrary element to Nobel prizes for literature. In another century, Dylan may have fallen into complete obscurity, or achieved the same stature as Schubert - there is simply no way to tell. How many of any of the other literature winners will still be known a century from now (at which time, for all we know, the Harry Potter series might be considered as classic as Hans Andersen).

Heck, how many of the ones from 50 plus years ago are still at all known today? I'd have to go check out a list of past winners, but can't be bothered right now...


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## howlingfantods (Jul 27, 2015)

Well, I'm not surprised to be in the minority on this website but for me, Bob Dylan is one of the greatest creative artists of the past century. I absolutely think the award was well-deserved and I was delighted to see the news when I got up this morning.


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## Merl (Jul 28, 2016)

Figleaf said:


> I think. Personally I'm more of a Leonard Cohen sort of girl: he's wittier, less pompous and doesn't put on a silly voice.


Ain't that just.............like...............a woman!


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

"Lay lady lay.
Lay across my big brass bed"

Doesn't get more profound than that.


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## Mal (Jan 1, 2016)

brianvds said:


> The problem is, one really has to wait a century or so before it becomes clear who the great writers and artists really were...


Can take more than a century, mid 20th century the critics were critical of Dickens ("What the Dickens!"), now they see sense and mostly love him. But they could go crazy again in this century. Who knows?


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

So Dylan was found to be more worthy than Joyce Carol Oates, Margaret Atwood and Philip Roth, let alone, deserving writers all over the world.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Sorry folks, but when I associate the Nobel Prize for LITERATURE, I'm thinking NOVELIST!!!


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## Strange Magic (Sep 14, 2015)

hpowders said:


> Sorry folks, but when I associate the Nobel Prize for LITERATURE, I'm thinking NOVELIST!!!


No Nobel for Shakespeare?


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## Guest (Oct 14, 2016)

hpowders said:


> Sorry folks, but when I associate the Nobel Prize for LITERATURE, I'm thinking NOVELIST!!!


Nothing for poets?


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

It's debatable that song lyrics are even examples of poetry. They are words purposely chosen to be rhythmically fit to music, as pretty as the words may be. Poetry is meant to stand alone. I wouldn't have expected the late Oscar Hammerstein ll to have been chosen for a Nobel Prize, because his lyrics are not literature, great as the lyrics were, time after time.

If the Nobel committee wants to create a song lyric category, great. Then I can think of plenty of other worthy candidates like Judy Collins, the surviving Beatles and posthumously, Laura Nyro.


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## Headphone Hermit (Jan 8, 2014)

hpowders said:


> Sorry folks, but when I associate the Nobel Prize for LITERATURE, I'm thinking NOVELIST!!!


There is a long history of the prize being awarded to poets - including TS Eliott, WB Yeats, Czeslaw Milosz, Octavio Paz, Seamus Heaney

you can see the very wide range of genres for which the prize has been awarded in this list https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Nobel_laureates_in_Literature


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## Headphone Hermit (Jan 8, 2014)

brianvds said:


> Heck, how many of the ones from 50 plus years ago are still at all known today? I'd have to go check out a list of past winners, but can't be bothered right now...


I guess it all depends on whether you are keen on literature or not, but there are many that are still famous .... Rudyard Kipling, Henryk Sienkawicz, WB Yeats, George Bernard Shaw, Thomas Mann, John Galsworthy, Eugene O'Neill, Hermann Hesse, TS Eliot, William Faulkner, Bertrand Russell, Churchill (!!!), Ernest Hemingway, Juan Ramon Jimenez, Albert Camus, Boris Pasternak, John Steinbeck, Jean-Paul Sartre, Mikhail Solokov ... all from 50 years ago or more (and I don't regard myself as being very well-read when it comes to modern literature)


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## Mal (Jan 1, 2016)

I'm having more trouble with those in the last five years  Hadn't heard of any of them:

https://www.nobelprize.org/nobel_prizes/literature/laureates/

The Nobel Prize in Literature 2015
Svetlana Alexievich
"for her polyphonic writings, a monument to suffering and courage in our time"

The Nobel Prize in Literature 2014
Patrick Modiano
"for the art of memory with which he has evoked the most ungraspable human destinies and uncovered the life-world of the occupation"

The Nobel Prize in Literature 2013
Alice Munro
"master of the contemporary short story"

The Nobel Prize in Literature 2012
Mo Yan
"who with hallucinatory realism merges folk tales, history and the contemporary"

The Nobel Prize in Literature 2011
Tomas Tranströmer
"because, through his condensed, translucent images, he gives us fresh access to reality"

I say "hadn't", I would have said "haven't" but I borrowed Alice Munro from the library after hearing of the result - the English speaking press bothered to make her a headline (not *the* headline like Dylan, but at least *a* headline...) She's very good, I'd read more of her rather than Dylan, but I may be suffering from "over familiarity" with Dylan, who I think is good stuff, but you can have too much of good stuff...


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## Mal (Jan 1, 2016)

hpowders said:


> Sorry folks, but when I associate the Nobel Prize for LITERATURE, I'm thinking NOVELIST!!!


And beyond poets, what about short story writers, like the much deserved winner Alice Munro. Should the Gramophone award only be for symphonies and songs?


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## Flamme (Dec 30, 2012)

1st rap song ever??? In any case, very 'intellectual'


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## howlingfantods (Jul 27, 2015)

hpowders said:


> So Dylan was found to be more worthy than Joyce Carol Oates, Margaret Atwood and Philip Roth, let alone, deserving writers all over the world.


I 100% endorse the opinion that Dylan is far more worthy than these writers.


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## Mal (Jan 1, 2016)

hpowders said:


> ... Margaret Atwood and Philip Roth ...


Yes! They should win, and I'm from the other side of the pond, so I'm not being partisan. "Exit Ghost" and "Stone Mattress", superb literature.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

howlingfantods said:


> I 100% endorse the opinion that Dylan is far more worthy than these writers.


That endorsement and $1.50 will get you a ticket for the NYC Underground Tubes, which we natives simply refer to as the "subway".


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Mal said:


> And beyond poets, what about short story writers, like the much deserved winner Alice Munro. Should the Gramophone award only be for symphonies and songs?


I don't see Dylan as a poet. He was an above average lyricist who couldn't sing his way out of a paper bag.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Headphone Hermit said:


> There is a long history of the prize being awarded to poets - including TS Eliott, WB Yeats, Czeslaw Milosz, Octavio Paz, Seamus Heaney
> 
> you can see the very wide range of genres for which the prize has been awarded in this list https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Nobel_laureates_in_Literature


Dylan was not a poet, literally(pardon the pun). Poets write words to stand alone, not to be rhythmically fit to music. Dylan is a lyricist.

If the Nobels wish to have a lyricist category, that's fine with me....but I consider a collection of song lyrics awarded the Nobel prize in literature "an eccentric stretch". I wouldn't say "dummying down" because of all the great novelists and legitimately fine poets out there throughout the world, who have been passed over by the committee, but it's close.


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## howlingfantods (Jul 27, 2015)

hpowders said:


> Dylan was not a poet, literally(pardon the pun). Poets write words to stand alone, not to be rhythmically fit to music. Dylan is a lyricist.
> 
> If the Nobels wish to have a lyricist category, that's fine with me....but I consider a collection of song lyrics awarded the Nobel prize in literature "an eccentric stretch". I wouldn't say "dummying down" because of all the great novelists and legitimately fine poets out there throughout the world, who have been passed over by the committee, but it's close.


Homer:

Sing, Goddess, Achilles' rage,
Black and murderous, that cost the Greeks
Incalculable pain, pitched countless souls
Of heroes into Hades' dark

hpowders:

Oh crap, he sang this?? not poetry.


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## Vronsky (Jan 5, 2015)

Adonis, Milan Kundera, Margaret Atwood, Salman Rushdie, Ursula Le Guin, Ismail Kadare are by far better candidates and authors/artists (I mean, light years far). But, I guess, the Nobel Prize now became "journalist/senastional/pop-culture" decoration. 

I never liked Bob Dylan, not as a songwriter, not as a author, not as a pop-culture figure.


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## howlingfantods (Jul 27, 2015)

From people whose critical opinions I actually care about, here's Alex Ross talking about the award:

http://www.newyorker.com/culture/cultural-comment/bob-dylan-as-richard-wagner

The only really defensible criticism of the award is that as great and artistic as his lyrics are, as with Wagner, the unity of word and music is really what elevates Dylan's art. Note that he doesn't argue that Dylan is artistically unworthy because he's from a lesser artform like the artistic reactionaries on this board are doing.


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## Strange Magic (Sep 14, 2015)

hpowders said:


> It's debatable that song lyrics are even examples of poetry. They are words purposely chosen to be rhythmically fit to music, as pretty as the words may be. Poetry is meant to stand alone. I wouldn't have expected the late Oscar Hammerstein ll to have been chosen for a Nobel Prize, because his lyrics are not literature, great as the lyrics were, time after time.
> 
> If the Nobel committee wants to create a song lyric category, great. Then I can think of plenty of other worthy candidates like Judy Collins, the surviving Beatles and posthumously, Laura Nyro.


This is nit-picking with tweezers and a jeweler's loupe. Gotta be a novel/novelist, preferably read by 17 people. If a poem is sung by a bard, who wrote it to be sung, it's no go. Norse sagas, the Elder Edda, the _Rig-Veda_, likely heaps of other ancient cultural works were preserved for centuries if not millennia as sung poetry. Homer; the Irish bards. "A Song of Myself". I could go on (but I won't).


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## Strange Magic (Sep 14, 2015)

Salman Rushdie said the Committee made a great choice.


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## Flamme (Dec 30, 2012)

Strange Magic said:


> This is nit-picking with tweezers and a *jeweler's loupe*. Gotta be a novel/novelist, preferably read by 17 people. If a poem is sung by a bard, who wrote it to be sung, it's no go. Norse sagas, the Elder Edda, the _Rig-Veda_, likely heaps of other ancient cultural works were preserved for centuries if not millennia as sung poetry. Homer; the Irish bards. "A Song of Myself". I could go on (but I won't).


My God, i absolutely love the form of english used herein!!! I need a dictionary and i expand my own vocabulary every day, acting as a sort of language sponge...One day it may save my life!


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Vronsky said:


> Adonis, Milan Kundera, Margaret Atwood, Salman Rushdie, Ursula Le Guin, Ismail Kadare are by far better candidates and authors/artists (I mean, light years far). But, I guess, the Nobel Prize now became "journalist/senastional/pop-culture" decoration.
> 
> I never liked Bob Dylan, not as a songwriter, not as a author, not as a pop-culture figure.


If they could award Obama the Nobel Peace prize for doing absolutely nothing to promote peace....then we should have seen this kind of thing coming.

Just another variation of "Euro-trash", in my opinion, (which is so pervasive, these days, we might as well call it World-trash) by a bunch of folks in powerful positions who want to change things for no other reason than to change things; should have known better and are most likely rubbing their hands together with glee, behind thick steel closed doors, accompanied by loud cackles of laughter.


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## Strange Magic (Sep 14, 2015)

Don't know about other folks, but this is and has been a fun thread. :lol:


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## StlukesguildOhio (Dec 25, 2006)

hpowders- So Dylan was found to be more worthy than Joyce Carol Oates, Margaret Atwood and Philip Roth...

Easily.


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## StlukesguildOhio (Dec 25, 2006)

Vronsky said:


> Adonis, Milan Kundera, Margaret Atwood, Salman Rushdie, Ursula Le Guin, Ismail Kadare are by far better candidates and authors/artists (I mean, light years far). But, I guess, the Nobel Prize now became "journalist/senastional/pop-culture" decoration.
> 
> *I never liked Bob Dylan, not as a songwriter, not as a author, not as a pop-culture figure.*


Doesn't that make your opinion a slight bit biased?


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## Sloe (May 9, 2014)

StlukesguildOhio said:


> Doesn't that make your opinion a slight bit biased?


It is a better argument than he write texts to be fit for music.
By the way I thought lyric was just another word for poetry.


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## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

Now that he's a Nobel winner, I guess I need to hear Corigliano's Mr. Tamborine Man again. Mr. Corigliano set his poems to music without hearing the actual songs. I guess he felt the words alone had some merit, though I seem to recall on my one and only hearing of it, they sounded a little pretentious surrounded by all that neoreomantic gloss.


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## StlukesguildOhio (Dec 25, 2006)

Looking rapidly across my book shelves I can easily identify a slew of writers in a variety of literary genre whose work is certainly worthy of recognition:

Mario Vargas Llosa
Geoffrey Hill
Richard Wilbur
Homero Aridjis
Peter Ackroyd
Charles Wright
Anne Carson 
Yves Bonnefoy
Cees Nooteboom
Haruki Murakami
Amos Oz
Adam Zagajewski
Adunis
A.B. Yehoshua
Juan Goytisolo
Michel Tournier
Peter Carey
Paul Muldoon
Cormac McCarthy
Thomas Pynchon
Don DeLillo
E.L. Doctorow
John Ashbery

This list is heavily biased toward English-language writers and writers translated into English. How many writers of real talent hail from China, Japan, Iran, Israel, Italy, Portugal, etc...? The Nobel Prize committee has overlooked some of the greatest writers across the whole of its history. They have also selected any number of writers of the highest caliber who were criticised because the Anglo-American audiences had never heard of them (Wislawa Szymborska, Jaroslav Seifert, Tomas Tranströmer, Odysseus Elytis, Vicente Aleixandre, Eugenio Montale, etc...). The Prize will never satisfy everyone. Personally, I think Dylan was more than deserving, and I'm glad to see the Nobel Committee pushing the definition of what counts as literature.


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## StlukesguildOhio (Dec 25, 2006)

Poets write words to stand alone, not to be rhythmically fit to music. Dylan is a lyricist.

And a lyricist is still a writer and lyrics are still a genre of writing/literature.


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## howlingfantods (Jul 27, 2015)

hpowders said:


> If they could award Obama the Nobel Peace prize for doing absolutely nothing to promote peace....then we should have seen this kind of thing coming.
> 
> Just another variation of "Euro-trash", in my opinion, (which is so pervasive, these days, we might as well call it World-trash) by a bunch of folks in powerful positions who want to change things for no other reason than to change things; should have known better and are most likely rubbing their hands together with glee, behind thick steel closed doors, accompanied by loud cackles of laughter.


Such a bizarre argument. The only thing that nontraditional opera stagings have in common with the Nobel committee awarding a prize to someone with roots in the popular arts is that they both seem to reduce the culturally conservative wing on internet message boards to sputtering and incoherent rage.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Well, now I have some hope!

After selecting Bob Dylan as this year's Nobel Prize winner for literature, I hope the esteemed academy will consider my humble collection of 13,437 concise, to the point, pithy posts on diverse topics, for next year's award; in particular, I am very proud of my Stupid Thread Ideas posts; a labor/labour of love.


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## Vronsky (Jan 5, 2015)

StlukesguildOhio said:


> Doesn't that make your opinion a slight bit biased?


Yes, it does.

But, I would not agree, even if the prize was awarded to Leonard Cohen, singer that I like, or Tom Waits, Neil Young etc. They're pop-musicians and they should be remembered as such. Art requires higher standards.

I think they seek attention, that's why Bob Dylan is awarded. Marketing decision. Bob Dylan is better entertainer than Kadare, Atwood, Le Guin, Kundera and that's what world wants today: Entertainment...


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Bob Dylan : Grammy Award = James Joyce : Literature Nobel Prize.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

I can't wait to see the thread when Keith Richards wins the Nobel Prize for chemistry!


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## Vronsky (Jan 5, 2015)

starthrower said:


> I can't wait to see the thread when Keith Richards wins the Nobel Prize for chemistry!


Willie Nelson for medicine!


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

howlingfantods said:


> Such a bizarre argument. The only thing that nontraditional opera stagings have in common with the Nobel committee awarding a prize to someone with roots in the popular arts is that they both seem to reduce the culturally conservative wing on internet message boards to sputtering and incoherent rage.


Rather than perceiving it as a bizarre argument, consider it as hpowders' contribution to literature.


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## Flamme (Dec 30, 2012)

Vronsky said:


> Adonis, Milan Kundera, Margaret Atwood, Salman Rushdie, Ursula Le Guin, Ismail Kadare are by far better candidates and authors/artists (I mean, light years far). But, I guess, the Nobel Prize now became "journalist/senastional/pop-culture" decoration.
> 
> *I never liked Bob Dylan, not as a songwriter, not as a author, not as a pop-culture figure.*


Conservative detected!!!:lol:


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## znapschatz (Feb 28, 2016)

Vronsky said:


> Adonis, Milan Kundera, Margaret Atwood, Salman Rushdie, Ursula Le Guin, Ismail Kadare are by far better candidates and authors/artists (I mean, light years far). But, I guess, the Nobel Prize now became "journalist/senastional/pop-culture" decoration.
> 
> *I never liked Bob Dylan, not as a songwriter, not as a author, not as a pop-culture figure.*


In addition to most of that, I would have to add that as a person, I believe him to have been a self-serving opportunist and schemer, a plagiarist of music and performing styles (Woody Guthrie), and an unpleasant character. But I also think he was probably one of the best and most influential songwriter/performers of his generation; if not on your preferred list, at least, a worthy recipient of the award.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Vronsky said:


> Willie Nelson for medicine!


He grows his medicine in his backyard.


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## Sloe (May 9, 2014)

StlukesguildOhio said:


> This list is heavily biased toward English-language writers and writers translated into English. How many writers of real talent hail from China, Japan, Iran, Israel, Italy, Portugal, etc...? The Nobel Prize committee has overlooked some of the greatest writers across the whole of its history. They have also selected any number of writers of the highest caliber who were criticised because the Anglo-American audiences had never heard of them (Wislawa Szymborska, Jaroslav Seifert, Tomas Tranströmer, Odysseus Elytis, Vicente Aleixandre, Eugenio Montale, etc...). The Prize will never satisfy everyone. Personally, I think Dylan was more than deserving, and I'm glad to see the Nobel Committee pushing the definition of what counts as literature.


It is only given out once every year and it can only be shared by 3 people so a lot of writers will be missed.
There was hopes and speculations for Tomas Tranströmer for years and people thought he would never get it. The thing is in 1974 the nobel prize in literature was given to Eyvind Johnson and Harry Martinsson both were members of the Swedish Academy and not so well known abroad that lead to such heavy criticism that the Swedish Academy was reluctant to give the Nobel Prize to Swedish writers for years.


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## Blancrocher (Jul 6, 2013)

Personally, I think that individuals whose yearly income exceeds $10 million or so should be disqualified from consideration for a Nobel Prize in Literature. I could live with a pop musician winning the award so long as they were only moderately successful.


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## Sloe (May 9, 2014)

Blancrocher said:


> Personally, I think that individuals whose yearly income exceeds $10 million or so should be disqualified from consideration for a Nobel Prize in Literature. I could live with a pop musician winning the award so long as they were only moderately successful.


The prize does not exist to help writers in need or to promote obscure writers. It is supposed to be given to the person whose deeds have benefited most for man kind.


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## Flamme (Dec 30, 2012)

hpowders said:


> He grows his medicine in his backyard.


I could smoke a tookah pack rite now...!!!


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## EddieRUKiddingVarese (Jan 8, 2013)

There will be so many Lyricists feeling peeved today, you know Aqua (Barbie Girl), Adadoo (Pineapple up a tree), Los Del Rio (Macarena), Joe Dolce (Shaddap-a you face), Bart Simpson*(*Do the Bart Man), Billy Ray Cyrus(Achy Breaky Heart), The Muppets (Mahna Mahna),  Rick Dees (Disco Duck) and anything by Andrew Lloyd Webber/ Tim Rice


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Fortunately there is no Nobel prize for singing, or we'd be debating whether the unique sounds Dylan makes should actually be called singing.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Singing? I vote for Le Petomane! Oh never mind, he died in 1945.


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## znapschatz (Feb 28, 2016)

Woodduck said:


> Fortunately there is no Nobel prize for singing, or we'd be debating whether the unique sounds Dylan makes should actually be called singing.


Well, whatever it is that he does works for the masses, among which I include myself, and this despite his having cost me a girlfriend once.

One evening way back when, we had gone to see "Don't Look Back," the bio-ish documentary about the young Dylan, and in the post cinema discussion, she gushed on about his greatness as an artist and human being. However, while allowing for the talent, I was less enthusiastic about the man. She, a committed fan, blew up at me, stomped off into the night, and that was the end of our relationship.

Although my feelings about him have not changed, I don't harbor any ill will toward Dylan for this episode. Any fangirl taking pop music crushes that seriously would not have been in my long term, anyway.


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## Casebearer (Jan 19, 2016)

EddieRUKiddingVarese said:


> There will be so many Lyricists feeling peeved today, you know Aqua (Barbie Girl), Adadoo (Pineapple up a tree), Los Del Rio (Macarena), Joe Dolce (Shaddap-a you face), Bart Simpson*(*Do the Bart Man), Billy Ray Cyrus(Achy Breaky Heart), The Muppets (Mahna Mahna),  Rick Dees (Disco Duck) and anything by Andrew Lloyd Webber/ Tim Rice


I think The Muppets should win something. Maybe the Nobel Peace Prize for establishing sometimes violent but always lighthearted relations between pigs, frogs, musicians, Swedish cooks (pöpcoern) and old men.


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## Ariasexta (Jul 3, 2010)

I like his music, I have not a single word against this laureate, Elton John is not bad too, hope someday Elton win the Nobel too.


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## Ariasexta (Jul 3, 2010)

I feel modern classical thingy is the real punky junky there. People should not be allowed to compose on classical instruments untill they get priviledge to publish their music just like in the baroque ages. Bob Dylan and Elton John are the true modern classical musicians, and the Nobel prize proves it, people can only creat good music when they respect the tradition of vocal music, since human voice itself is melodious, atonality is not applicable to vocalmusic if not to sound like browling and dementia. Punk composers usually abuse the instruments to creat noise to pass off as music without the participation of vocal forces.(To call bad music as punk is my coinage.)


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## helenora (Sep 13, 2015)

"Les honneurs déshonorent", écrivait Flaubert. Qui brigue la couronne lèche le trône. Ô lévrier, tu as battu le lapin.
"Dishonored honors ", wrote Flaubert. Who is in a pursue of a crown licks the thrown. O greyhound, you beat the rabbit."

a quote from this article in French http://towardgrace.blogspot.fr/2016/10/lincroyable-verite-sur-laffaire-du-prix.html?m=1


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## Ariasexta (Jul 3, 2010)

Good modern singers like Bob Dylan and Elton John are like modern Jose Marin（1618-1699），who was also the writer of his own lyrics, involved in lewdness and brawls and killings. The famous playwrights like Lope De Vega(1562-1635) and the suspect of the real Shakespeare Edward De Vere(1550-1605), were both once killers in brawls (Carlo Gesualdo-1566-1613 also came to mind). In the western arts, some of the good writers and musicians have complex personalities, however one thing is common, they are all passionate people. Bob and Elton obviously inherited the passions for life and music, their passions can be heard and felt and shared through their music, just as baroque music. If these two talents are commissioned to compose for the church, they will creat the top notch music I am sure about that. Eltons Tombeau for the queen Diana "Candle in the Wind" has become a true classical piece in our age, this piece can be beautifully played on piano, or violin as diminution for instrumental music.


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## Ariasexta (Jul 3, 2010)

helenora said:


> "Les honneurs déshonorent", écrivait Flaubert. Qui brigue la couronne lèche le trône. Ô lévrier, tu as battu le lapin.
> "Dishonored honors ", wrote Flaubert. Who is in a pursue of a crown licks the thrown. O greyhound, you beat the rabbit."
> 
> a quote from this article in French http://towardgrace.blogspot.fr/2016/10/lincroyable-verite-sur-laffaire-du-prix.html?m=1


I know what you mean, but this is the music, torment is music if numbness is happiness, and death is music is life is a lie. 
Sometimes, music came from pain more than from ignorant happiness. Music`s dilemma is that it can be institutionalized but can not be a prisoner of peoples conventions, it seems simple but it is also full of contradictions. Just like a butterfly flies within a dark forest with lurking spiders, centipedes, mosquitos etc, but according to human conventions, we must kill the bad bugs to protect the buttflies, and these beautiful butteflies must be kept in gardens or warmhouses only. This is the stupidity of human-centric conventions, and the result of dictatorship of such convention is nothing more than scientific punk, atonality and experimental mathematical punks.


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## brianvds (May 1, 2013)

Mal said:


> Can take more than a century, mid 20th century the critics were critical of Dickens ("What the Dickens!"), now they see sense and mostly love him. But they could go crazy again in this century. Who knows?


I for one cannot stand Dickens, so there you go. 



Headphone Hermit said:


> I guess it all depends on whether you are keen on literature or not, but there are many that are still famous .... Rudyard Kipling, Henryk Sienkawicz, WB Yeats, George Bernard Shaw, Thomas Mann, John Galsworthy, Eugene O'Neill, Hermann Hesse, TS Eliot, William Faulkner, Bertrand Russell, Churchill (!!!), Ernest Hemingway, Juan Ramon Jimenez, Albert Camus, Boris Pasternak, John Steinbeck, Jean-Paul Sartre, Mikhail Solokov ... all from 50 years ago or more (and I don't regard myself as being very well-read when it comes to modern literature)


In which case it seems that the Nobels are after all a fairly good predictor of long term success.



Strange Magic said:


> Salman Rushdie said the Committee made a great choice.


Yeah, but privately he's fuming and already planning a sequel to _The Satanic Verses_. 



hpowders said:


> If they could award Obama the Nobel Peace prize for doing absolutely nothing to promote peace....then we should have seen this kind of thing coming.


Yup, ever since that one, I stopped taking the Nobels seriously.



> Just another variation of "Euro-trash", in my opinion, (which is so pervasive, these days, we might as well call it World-trash) by a bunch of folks in powerful positions who want to change things for no other reason than to change things;


Yeah well, times they are a-changin' you know? 



hpowders said:


> After selecting Bob Dylan as this year's Nobel Prize winner for literature, I hope the esteemed academy will consider my humble collection of 13,437 concise, to the point, pithy posts on diverse topics, for next year's award; in particular, I am very proud of my Stupid Thread Ideas posts; a labor/labour of love.


I think you are a more likely candidate for an Ig Nobel (which I do take quite seriously).


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## Guest (Oct 15, 2016)

Vronsky said:


> Yes, it does.
> 
> But, I would not agree, even if the prize was awarded to Leonard Cohen, singer that I like, or Tom Waits, Neil Young etc. They're pop-musicians and they should be remembered as such. *Art requires higher standards*.


The prize was for a specific achievement in literature - no-one said anything about 'art'.

Perhaps you'd like to offer some sense of the criteria you'd use to set the threshold between non-art and art?


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## Ariasexta (Jul 3, 2010)

Some can experiment with my path of appreciating the music, listen to good modern vocal songs and also listen to classical music. 2 years later come back to this thread you will understand what I mean.


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## jenspen (Apr 25, 2015)

hpowders said:


> Sorry folks, but when I associate the Nobel Prize for LITERATURE, I'm thinking NOVELIST!!!


I haven't read to the end of the thread but a friend just sent me this: Gary Shteyngart said he "totally gets the Nobel committee, reading books is hard".


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## Zhdanov (Feb 16, 2016)

Ariasexta said:


> Good modern singers like Bob Dylan and Elton John are like modern Jose Marin（1618-1699），who was also the writer of his own lyrics, involved in lewdness and brawls and killings. The famous playwrights like Lope De Vega(1562-1635) and the suspect of the real Shakespeare Edward De Vere(1550-1605), were both once killers in brawls (Carlo Gesualdo-1566-1613 also came to mind). In the western arts, some of the good writers and musicians have complex personalities, however one thing is common, they are all passionate people. Bob and Elton obviously


obviously aren't killers and thus unable to qualify even in that sense, let alone as talented artists.



Ariasexta said:


> Sometimes, music came from pain more than from ignorant happiness.


music comes from *skill*, first of all.


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## jenspen (Apr 25, 2015)

MacLeod said:


> Perhaps you'd like to offer some sense of the criteria you'd use to set the threshold between non-art and art?


You didn't ask me, but I've been thinking about your interesting question and one criterion for art that comes to mind is that it should demand a lot of me and that the reward for such input should be commensurately great.

Another criterion is that the use of language should be technically skillful. This does not necessarily mean complicated (though I enjoy brain-ticklingly complicated language) - Elmore Leonard's prose is a brilliant example of skillful simplicity.

Bob's lyrics (and his music) didn't meet that second criterion when I was a left-leaning teenager in the 60s. Now that I'm a left-leaning septuagarian they meet neither criterion.

But I wasn't the sort of listener/reader the Nobel committee had in mind.


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## Iean (Nov 17, 2015)

Kieran said:


> Plays don't stand up on their own - they've got to be performed. Playwrights have won the Nobel Prize.
> 
> Dylan has expressed almost all the feelings of life in a vivid, imaginative, economic, beautiful way, in the popular form of song. People may haggle over whether or not his work has merit, is "great" or "classical", but they can haggle that over any of the previous winners. But...has he altered the way songs are written, from the viewpoint of lyrics and words? Has he brought poetry - and poets - into song? Has he influenced and enhanced the culture in a daring and brilliant way - through words?
> 
> ...


I agree with you...although this award is so long overdue already for Dylan :angel:


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## Strange Magic (Sep 14, 2015)

Bob Dylan does not have an Art Song voice, an Operatic voice, a smooth Pop Song voice. Lots of people don't like Bob Dylan's voice; it's a hindrance to their listening to his songs. I myself for years was not a big fan, due to that voice--strange for me in that I love traditional _cante flamenco_ where vocal smoothness is not a factor. I wasn't used to such a voice outside of flamenco. But the verbal inventiveness of many of the early hits was compelling, as was the potency of the venom of some of his lyrics and the venomous delivery of same--again, not your standard fare; not what people are used to. Give them more of what they're used to, say both Tradition and Inertia. But, as has been noted, the Nobel for literature is/was not an award for vocal excellence, so criticisms of Dylan's voice here are as irrelevant as disdain for his appearance. Though the opportunity of his nomination allows people to get this heavy weight off their chests--they never liked Dylan's voice and now it can be shouted from the rooftops, and they feel better.

But over the years, the sheer abundance of Dylan's verbal inventiveness, his fecundity, his passion and sincerity (_Hurricane_, among so many others), flowing out decade after decade, overcame my aversion to his voice, and he became Dylan the Troupador, Dylan the Bard, the Playful Verbal Trickster. And somehow, over the years, he has convinced even the Nobel committee, who had probably always heard him singing off in the distance somewhere, to turn, say, 90 degrees, away from the "usual suspects", the fine, wonderful novelists whose works will surely live forever and whose titles are on everyone's lips, and award instead this quite different, popular, fellow, who is/isn't really popular, or is popular with the wrong people. But don't worry; it won't happen again (anytime soon).


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## Mal (Jan 1, 2016)

Strange Magic said:


> But the verbal inventiveness of many of the early hits was compelling, as was the potency of the venom of some of his lyrics and the venomous delivery of same...


Yes, he had great, ongoing, impact in Britain, especially in protest movements. For instance, "Maggie's Farm", written in the 1960s, was taken up in the 1980s as the definitive protest song against the right wing excesses of Maggie Thatcher. Totally opposed to the Scandinavian model, as she was, you can see why the Scandinavians would vote for this today, when Thatcher's clone is ruling Britain, and Europe has been rejected. Here's a great version by the Blues Band, from 1980 just after Maggie came to power, feel the venom, "it's a state of disaster":






I haven't worked since  (Only half joking...)


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## Kieran (Aug 24, 2010)

Strange Magic said:


> Bob Dylan does not have an Art Song voice, an Operatic voice, a smooth Pop Song voice. Lots of people don't like Bob Dylan's voice; it's a hindrance to their listening to his songs. I myself for years was not a big fan, due to that voice--strange for me in that I love traditional _cante flamenco_ where vocal smoothness is not a factor. I wasn't used to such a voice outside of flamenco. But the verbal inventiveness of many of the early hits was compelling, as was the potency of the venom of some of his lyrics and the venomous delivery of same--again, not your standard fare; not what people are used to. Give them more of what they're used to, say both Tradition and Inertia. But, as has been noted, the Nobel for literature is/was not an award for vocal excellence, so criticisms of Dylan's voice here are as irrelevant as disdain for his appearance. Though the opportunity of his nomination allows people to get this heavy weight off their chests--they never liked Dylan's voice and now it can be shouted from the rooftops, and they feel better.
> 
> But over the years, the sheer abundance of Dylan's verbal inventiveness, his fecundity, his passion and sincerity (_Hurricane_, among so many others), flowing out decade after decade, overcame my aversion to his voice, and he became Dylan the Troupador, Dylan the Bard, the Playful Verbal Trickster. And somehow, over the years, he has convinced even the Nobel committee, who had probably always heard him singing off in the distance somewhere, to turn, say, 90 degrees, away from the "usual suspects", the fine, wonderful novelists whose works will surely live forever and whose titles are on everyone's lips, and award instead this quite different, popular, fellow, who is/isn't really popular, or is popular with the wrong people. But don't worry; it won't happen again (anytime soon).


Well said!

Dylan has always been divisive. He plugged in and folkies went bananas. He sang in a country twang and people were derisive. He was baptised and they went demented. He can sing - or he's a terrible singer. He's lousy live, or he's a genius performer. Always dividing opinion, as if he's an actual battleground where a crucial current style of criticism is being enforced, or being forced to give way. Now in a single stroke, he's won the argument, or better yet - he's kicked the can further down the road to where his work will now face even more scrutiny, and for better or worse, more judgments will be made.

In a way, he's restricted in the language he can use, because he has to pay attention to the musical form too, whether it's folk or blues, rock or gospel. He achieves an authenticity in either, without dimming down the intention or the words. This is why they gave it to him, I suspect: "for having created new poetic expressions within the great American song tradition". It wasn't for "writing stuff that should be only read on the page.

I think this is also why it's a brave call by the Nobel people, but also why - as you said - you won't get another songwriter winning this for decades, if ever...


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## Zhdanov (Feb 16, 2016)

Kieran said:


> I think this is also why it's a brave call by the Nobel people,


the CIA being Nobel people?


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## Kieran (Aug 24, 2010)

Zhdanov said:


> the CIA being Nobel people?


The CIA? :lol: ............


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

It's an interesting development, although for sheer poetic quality of lyrics, I think a stronger case could have been made for Paul Simon (especially his work in the sixties and seventies). At least to my taste.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

amfortas said:


> *Bob Dylan wins Nobel prize for literature!*
> 
> How does it feel?


Like a complete unknown.


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## Flamme (Dec 30, 2012)




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## Zhdanov (Feb 16, 2016)

Kieran said:


> The CIA?


yes because who else could have pulled such a trick?


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## Flamme (Dec 30, 2012)

They've faked the Moon landing, whats the problem with this???


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## amfortas (Jun 15, 2011)

Zhdanov said:


> yes because who else could have pulled such a trick?



xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx


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## Kieran (Aug 24, 2010)

Art Rock said:


> It's an interesting development, although for sheer poetic quality of lyrics, I think a stronger case could have been made for Paul Simon (especially his work in the sixties and seventies). At least to my taste.


No! Firstly, Bob Dylan created Paul Simon's career, and we can throw old Lenny Cohen in with this, and dozens of others. Dylan began this march into adult, interesting, inspired, weird lyrics, so his impact and influence is much greater. But even if he'd stopped writing songs in 1966, Paul Simon at aged 75 could never be compared with Bob Dylan - and Bob didn't stop in 1966. Paul Simon is great, but he's comparatively lighter, and safer, and as he's gotten older, he's become clever and whimsical, and a bit smug, but still not as deep or intense or adventurous or just wildly brilliant, as Dylan. And nowhere near as prolific...


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

The next best musician poet after Dylan is Neil Young.

I am glad Dylan got the Nobel prize for his poetry. Normally I cannot stand poetry on the written page. It bores me sick, but when set to music by Bob Dylan, poetry is great.


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## howlingfantods (Jul 27, 2015)

One thing I'm noticing about the most frothingly irate commentators is that they're pretty obviously only familiar with Dylan at a pretty superficial level--Blowin in the Wind, Lay Lady Lay and so forth. 

1- His most interesting lyrics aren't necessarily for his biggest hits.

2- Like many artists, Dylan is a vastly more interesting and polished adult than he was a teenager, even if the pop trends favored him more as a teen. There's sort of a blunt artlessness to even his most admired lyrics from the 60s (like Mr Tambourine Man or Desolation Row or Subterranean Homesick Blues) compared to the lyrics of his maturity, which I'd identify as starting around when he wrote John Wesley Harding. All Along the Watchtower--read instead of listened to with Jimi Hendrix doing guitar pyrotechnics--is a great piece of writing. Tangled Up in Blue, Simple Twist of Fate, Not Dark Yet are far more artful than his famous 60's songs.


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## Flamme (Dec 30, 2012)

Now when i think about it, Leonard Cohen was also lyrically very Strong, Tom Waits as well...


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## Guest (Oct 15, 2016)

Since everyone here knows that liking something implies greatness and disliking something implies the opposite, I'd better come clean and say that I've never counted myself as a fan of Dylan, and therefore he can't be worthy of a Nobel prize.


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## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

MacLeod said:


> Since everyone here knows that liking something implies greatness and disliking something implies the opposite, I'd better come clean and say that I've never counted myself as a fan of Dylan, and therefore he can't be worthy of a Nobel prize.


Sound reasoning, I must say.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

jenspen said:


> I haven't read to the end of the thread but a friend just sent me this: Gary Shteyngart said he "totally gets the Nobel committee, reading books is hard".


Yes. Another example of dumbing down of the culture. Why evaluate recently written great books by worthy authors when as a kid you remembered a few memorable lyrics by Bob Dylan that stuck with you.

My 13,000+ posts are still in play for the 2017 award, hopefully. Whenever the phone rings, my heart skips a few beats.


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## Strange Magic (Sep 14, 2015)

hpowders said:


> Yes. Another example of dumbing down of the culture. Why evaluate recently written great books by worthy authors when as a kid you remembered a few memorable lyrics by Bob Dylan that stuck with you.
> 
> My 13,000+ posts are still in play for the 2017 award, hopefully. Whenever the phone rings, my heart skips a few beats.


This thread has been an eye-opener; I had no idea that that Dylan's getting the award would so traumatize people-- perhaps he should decline it on humanitarian grounds to spare the sensitive further suffering. Actually, Bob Dylan has been writing songs continuously for scores of years now, many of them very good. He's been releasing albums--I don't know what the count is up to now, so while I too heard as a kid a few (more than a few) memorable lyrics of his back then, I've been keeping up and listening to Dylan's memorable lyrics for decade after decade. Things Have Changed.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Strange Magic said:


> No Nobel for Shakespeare?


Mr. Shakespeare:
After many yearly attempts to deliver you the notification of an award by the Nobel Prize committee for literature, and having it returned year after year as "addressee unknown" we have decided to issue the award to our second choice, Robert Dylan.
No such notifications will be issued in the future.
The committee must assume you are deceased.


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## Headphone Hermit (Jan 8, 2014)

hpowders said:


> Well, now I have some hope!
> 
> After selecting Bob Dylan as this year's Nobel Prize winner for literature, *I hope the esteemed academy will consider my humble collection of 13,437 concise, to the point, pithy posts on diverse topics, for next year's award;* in particular, I am very proud of my Stupid Thread Ideas posts; a labor/labour of love.


Impossible! They *used* to be pithy but now wander into proselytising too much :devil:


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Headphone Hermit said:


> There is a long history of the prize being awarded to poets - including TS Eliott, WB Yeats, Czeslaw Milosz, Octavio Paz, Seamus Heaney
> 
> you can see the very wide range of genres for which the prize has been awarded in this list https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Nobel_laureates_in_Literature


How many song lyricists have received the award?


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## EddieRUKiddingVarese (Jan 8, 2013)

I'm waiting for AC/DC to publish Bon Scotts lyrics in a book - Dirty Deeds Done Dirt Cheap, the literary world ain't seen nothing yet, now pandora's is open for business.................


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## Strange Magic (Sep 14, 2015)

hpowders said:


> How many song lyricists have received the award?


Old invocation in many cultures: "Let no new thing arise!"


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Strange Magic said:


> Old invocation in many cultures: "Let no new thing arise!"


O'Brian claims this was a popular toast in the British Navy in Napoleonic times.


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## Strange Magic (Sep 14, 2015)

KenOC said:


> O'Brian claims this was a popular toast in the British Navy in Napoleonic times.


Probably correct, but I have a vague memory of Stephen Maturin telling someone in one of the books that it is an old Spanish saying as well. And I think I've heard it identified as Chinese also.


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

Strange Magic said:


> Probably correct, but I have a vague memory of Stephen Maturin telling someone in one of the books that it is an old Spanish saying as well. And I think I've heard it identified as Chinese also.


My favourite (alleged) Chinese saying is "May you live in interesting times." A double edged statement if ever there was one!


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

Or as a good folk singer and guitarist friend of mine is fond of saying "May the skin of your behind never cover a banjo!"


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

My favorite curse is (supposedly) an Arabic one: May your stool grow horns.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Strange Magic said:


> Probably correct, but I have a vague memory of Stephen Maturin telling someone in one of the books that it is an old Spanish saying as well. And I think I've heard it identified as Chinese also.


My memory might be at fault. Stephen Maturin, of course, is seldom wrong.


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## StlukesguildOhio (Dec 25, 2006)

Yes. Another example of dumbing down of the culture. Why evaluate recently written great books by worthy authors when as a kid you remembered a few memorable lyrics by Bob Dylan that stuck with you.

Believe it or not there are some who can and have read great books and listened to great works of music and are still able to find that there are works of popular culture that are equally worthy of recognition. Personally, I quite enjoy Dylan... in spite of the fact that I am currently sitting in a personal library of some 4,000 books... a great many of which I have read.


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## Strange Magic (Sep 14, 2015)

jenspen said:


> I haven't read to the end of the thread but a friend just sent me this: Gary Shteyngart said he "totally gets the Nobel committee, reading books is hard".


Gary Shteyngart. Now there's a literary reputation whose duration will make the life of a mayfly seem like that of a sequoia. Faintly amusing, disposable books. A century from now, Dylan? Or Gary Shteyngart? Just my opinion.


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## Zhdanov (Feb 16, 2016)

StlukesguildOhio said:


> there are some who can and have read great books and listened to great works of music and are still able to find that there are works of popular culture that are equally worthy of recognition.


they are mistaken.



StlukesguildOhio said:


> Personally, I quite enjoy Dylan... in spite of the fact that I am currently sitting in a personal library of some 4,000 books... a great many of which I have read.


depends on which ones, might well only be the likes of Alice In Wonderland and Harry Potter.


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## Guest (Oct 17, 2016)

hpowders said:


> Yes. Another example of dumbing down of the culture.


No. Another example of a more enlightened view of what 'culture' is: something that encompasses many traditions, not just the stuffy tradition of those who don't even realise that the novel was once despised as a poor form, and poetry a more elevated art.



Zhdanov said:


> depends on which ones, might well only be the likes of Alice In Wonderland and Harry Potter.


Two fine examples of English literature.


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## Headphone Hermit (Jan 8, 2014)

hpowders said:


> How many song lyricists have received the award?


define 'poetry' .... if you can!

We have had long and passionate debates about 'music' on this forum ... without arriving at agreement. I bet there would be a similar debate about 'poetry' on Talk Poetry (if it exists)


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## jenspen (Apr 25, 2015)

KenOC said:


> My memory might be at fault. Stephen Maturin, of course, is seldom wrong.


Was it William F. Buckley who wrote that he'd lost all respect for the Nobel Prize for Literature because it hadn't been awarded to Patrick O'Brian? Something Stephen is always wrong about - cricket!


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## Ingélou (Feb 10, 2013)

I haven't kept up with Bob Dylan's later work, but when my Dad used to play 'Bringing it all back home' over and over again in a doomed attempt to be cool, I confess, I liked his lyrics and found them evocative.

For special mention:

'She wears an Egyptian ring, that sparkles before she speaks.'

'My love, she speaks like silence
Without ideals or violence
She doesn't have to say she's faithful
Yet she's true like ice, like fire
People carry roses
And make promises by the hour
My love she laughs like the flowers
Valentines can't buy her.'

'To dance beneath the diamond sky with one hand waving free...'

'I ain't gonna work on Maggie's farm no more
I ain't gonna work on Maggie's farm no more
*Well, I try my best
To be just like I am
But everybody wants you
To be just like them
They say sing while you slave and I just get bored* (my italics)
I ain't gonna work on Maggie's farm no more.'

'Darkness at the break of noon
Shadows even the silver spoon
The handmade blade, the child's balloon
Eclipses both the sun and moon
To understand you know too soon
There is no sense in trying.'
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

These lyrics hold up. I never did, but I could have easily, made them the basis of a poetry lesson. I don't think they are dumbed down at all.
I have no great yen for Bob Dylan, but am not too shocked by his award.


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## Strange Magic (Sep 14, 2015)

@Ingelou: If you do find the time and the inclination to examine Dylan's output beyond the years of his peak popularity, you'll find the flame of his lyric gift has burned steadily all along. His voice, never his primary gift, is now sometimes reduced to a croak, but the inventiveness, the startling freshness of his sung poetry is undimmed.

Here's an example that's as good as any other in showing the work of the later Dylan, _Things Have Changed_:


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Zhdanov said:


> the question is who handles Norway?


The smoked salmon is excellent. That needs to be left alone.


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## Flamme (Dec 30, 2012)

He has certainly found an musical, alchemical formula(e), for success and putting some serios topics into muddy mainstream...He was always 'so good with words' as the lyrics say...



...Wonder was he the ghost writer in this case...Anyway his songs remind me of one better, more peaceful and colourful time, and makes me even more an outsider in this day and age.


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## Kieran (Aug 24, 2010)

brianvds said:


> Yeah, but privately he's fuming and already planning a sequel to _The Satanic Verses_.


That's right, I read it on his website. It's going to be called, _The Satanic Verses 2: And This Time There'll be Some Actual Bloody Verses!_


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

KenOC said:


> My favorite curse is (supposedly) an Arabic one: May your stool grow horns.


An eye watering prospect indeed!


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## Guest (Oct 17, 2016)

Flamme said:


> He has certainly found an musical, alchemical formula(e), for success and putting some serios topics into muddy mainstream...He was always 'so good with words' as the lyrics say...
> 
> 
> 
> ...Wonder was he the ghost writer in this case...Anyway his songs remind me of one better, more peaceful and colourful time, and makes me even more an outsider in this day and age.


I feel the same,probably it has something to do with aging and looking back with a kind of nostalgia.


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## Zhdanov (Feb 16, 2016)

MacLeod said:


> Two fine examples of English literature.


two loads of BS, in fact.


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## Zhdanov (Feb 16, 2016)

Ingélou said:


> These lyrics hold up.


that isn't enough for a Nobel nomination; anyone can write such a lyrics.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Zhdanov said:


> that isn't enough for a Nobel nomination; anyone can write such a lyrics.


Yes. The very magnitude of the Nobel prize in Literature awarded to Bob Dylan, is insulting to all those magnificent authors out there who wrote really terrific Nobel-worthy books over the last year.

After awarding the Nobel Peace Prize to Obama without any contribution to world peace by him at the time of the award and now the literature prize to Dylan, one must conclude the Nobel Committee has an "agenda" where fairness is thrown out the window.

(Dylan: Grammy Award: fine.

Dylan: Nobel Prize in Literature: Huh??)

Come on Mr. Dylan. Show some class. Humbly refuse it!


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## Kieran (Aug 24, 2010)

hpowders said:


> Yes. The very magnitude of the Nobel prize in Literature awarded to Bob Dylan, is insulting to all those magnificent authors out there who wrote really terrific Nobel-worthy books.
> 
> After awarding the Nobel Peace Prize to Obama without any contribution to world peace by him at the time of the award and now the literature prize to Dylan, one must conclude the Nobel Committee has an "agenda" where fairness is thrown out the window.
> 
> ...


I disagree. Well, I agree with you about Obama. Oh boy, I'd say they wish they could have that one back, right? And the award to the EU?! That means, me?! I won a share in a Nobel Peace Prize? Where's my cut, etc.

But they gave it to Bob for what he's done in bring poetry to the American song tradition. Nothing wrong with that so far, right? Then look at the songs themselves: Gates of Eden, Every Grain of Sand, Senor, Chimes of Freedom, Highlands; there's genius at work here, and genius that can express within a limited form great universal truths. And he's continued on up to the present. Currently, I'm listening to Street Legal. I began last week anyway, hadn't listened to it in years, then he won the award and I've cranked it up a notch. Self-consciously, of course. Don't want to irritate the neighbours. Also, I don't want to be seen as some follower of fashion. But anyhow, some of these songs express poetry. And great poetry, and they confirm the academy's blurb on why they gave it.

As the man himself might say of them, "I, um, got all these words in the, uh, right order, is all..."


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## Guest (Oct 17, 2016)

Zhdanov said:


> two loads of BS, in fact.


Ah, I see you're aiming for Nobel-worthy posts like hpowders.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Kieran said:


> The CIA? :lol: ............


Yes: *C*an't *I*nterpret *A*nything.


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## Zhdanov (Feb 16, 2016)

Kieran said:


> But they gave it to Bob for what he's done in bring poetry to the American song tradition.


what does it have to do with literature?


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

Zhdanov said:


> what does it have to do with literature?


Poetry is literature. They consider Dylan's lyrics poetry. Simple really.

Not sure I agree with the choice. Not sure Dylan agrees with the choice either. He is a very modest and unassuming man.


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## Flamme (Dec 30, 2012)

Traverso said:


> I feel the same,probably it has something to do with aging and looking back with a kind of nostalgia.


Im not dat old bro...! Even when i was a kid i felt strong disagreement with that, 80s world...Now i see it was wonderful comparing to this...I have always felt like i dont belong, one of the first stories i have read was 'The Outsider' by Lovecroft and it kinda marked my childhood...Anyway, this song got me cryin and i repeated it like i want to drown in sorrow...It was REALLY a better world, imho...


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## Zhdanov (Feb 16, 2016)

EdwardBast said:


> Poetry is literature. They consider Dylan's lyrics poetry.


but their crazy. Dylan's not a poetry.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Zhdanov said:


> but their crazy. Dylan's not a poetry.


That's our little secret. You and I.


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## StlukesguildOhio (Dec 25, 2006)

_StlukesguildOhio- Personally, I quite enjoy Dylan... in spite of the fact that I am currently sitting in a personal library of some 4,000 books... a great many of which I have read._

depends on which ones, might well only be the likes of Alice In Wonderland and Harry Potter.

Two fine examples of English literature.

two loads of BS, in fact.

Harry Potter does nothing for me, but Lewis Carroll was a brilliant writer. You are, of course, welcome to your opinion, but a great many highly respected literary critics, including Harold Bloom, would be quick to disagree.

Perhaps the _Twilight_ novels might have been a better example of crappy literature.

So which books would you presume I should have read?


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## StlukesguildOhio (Dec 25, 2006)

Kieran- they gave it (the Nobel Prize) to Bob for what he's done in bring poetry to the American song tradition.

what does it have to do with literature?

If someone needs to explain this tyo you, perhaps you know less about literature than your would lead us to believe.


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## StlukesguildOhio (Dec 25, 2006)

Zhdanov- what does it have to do with literature?

Poetry is literature. They consider Dylan's lyrics poetry. Simple really.

I don't even feel the need to define Dylan's lyrics as "poetry". They are lyrics... and lyrics are a form of literature. Hugo von Hofmannsthal (Richard Strauss' librettist) and Richard Wagner are both included in Harold Bloom's _Western Canon_ as great works of literature. I'm not certain we need to or should separate lyrics or librettos from the music of the song or opera any more than should we need to separate great cinematography from a film before we can appreciate it as "photography".


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## Zhdanov (Feb 16, 2016)

StlukesguildOhio said:


> If someone needs to explain this tyo you, perhaps you know less about literature than your would lead us to believe.


quite the other way around, if you need to explain Dylan as much, then he is not a poet or even decent artist.



StlukesguildOhio said:


> Hugo von Hofmannsthal (Richard Strauss' librettist) and Richard Wagner are both included in Harold Bloom's _Western Canon_ as great works of literature.


no idea who's that Bloom fellow, Wagner is not great literature, Hoffmannsthal even less so.


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## Guest (Oct 18, 2016)

Zhdanov said:


> no idea who's that Bloom fellow, Wagner is not great literature, Hoffmannsthal even less so.


You might offer something more to this discussion than mere contempt, not just for someone whose work you despise, but for the opinions of others who seem to know something about the subject. You prefer not to risk exposing your literary heroes to the scrutiny of others. I wonder why?


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## Zhdanov (Feb 16, 2016)

MacLeod said:


> You prefer not to risk exposing your literary heroes to the scrutiny of others. I wonder why?


no risk whatsoever, for my fave writers are Shakespeare, Cervantes, Hugo, Dickens, Tolstoy, Dostoevsky, Stephenson, Chekhov, London, Gorky, Sholokhov etc. but the point is, however Nobel prize has been screwed lately to make Nobel roll in his grave, they still gave it to books authors, whereas this time they gave it someone who barely qualifies as something other than a folksongs media figure with agenda behind him promoted through the media & glossy magazines.


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## Headphone Hermit (Jan 8, 2014)

Zhdanov said:


> but their crazy. Dylan's not a poetry.


Define 'poetry' please .... if you say it is not poetry (and not literature) then the onus is on you to say why not


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## Headphone Hermit (Jan 8, 2014)

Zhdanov said:


> no risk whatsoever, for my fave writers are Shakespeare, Cervantes, Hugo, Dickens, Tolstoy, Dostoevsky, Stephenson, Chekhov, London, Gorky, Sholokhov etc. but the point is, however Nobel prize has been screwed lately to make Nobel roll in his grave, they still gave it to books authors, whereas this time they gave it someone who barely qualifies as something other than a folksongs media figure with agenda behind him promoted through the media & glossy magazines.


BTW, my favourite authors are similar to yours - Shakespeare, Cervantes, Hugo, Dickens, Tolstoy, Dostoevsky are all amongst my favourites


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## Zhdanov (Feb 16, 2016)

Headphone Hermit said:


> Define 'poetry' please


poetry is a free form and coming separately from any other form in the first place and initially designed so without any other form in mind.


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## SiegendesLicht (Mar 4, 2012)

jenspen said:


> I haven't read to the end of the thread but a friend just sent me this: Gary Shteyngart said he "totally gets the Nobel committee, *reading books is hard*".


And that is all it comes down to, folks :lol:


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## Flamme (Dec 30, 2012)

I respect this award and Dylan but i feel politics have meddled in the process and like many others before him BD is a strong pro liberal...One of my favorite poets of gigantic talent, Ezra Pound, never received anything...


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## Kieran (Aug 24, 2010)

Flamme said:


> I respect this award and Dylan but i feel politics have meddled in the process and like many others before him BD is a strong pro liberal...One of my favorite poets of gigantic talent, Ezra Pound, never received anything...


Why do you think Bob Dylan is a liberal?


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## Guest (Oct 18, 2016)

Zhdanov said:


> no risk whatsoever, for my fave writers are Shakespeare, Cervantes, Hugo, Dickens, Tolstoy, Dostoevsky, Stephenson, Chekhov, London, Gorky,


Some worthy writers for sure, but surely the Nobel Prize would be for living writers...we can't expect them to live in the past just because we like to. What about modern writers?


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## kartikeys (Mar 16, 2013)

Great writers do not necessarily enjoy a vast readership. 
Their political beliefs decide the stature of their book reviews. 
Instead of literature, people are seeking a confirmation of their 
beliefs in books.


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## Flamme (Dec 30, 2012)

Kieran said:


> Why do you think Bob Dylan is a liberal?


It is obvious he is a leftist liberal, not only from his lyrics but from his whole political work...


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## SiegendesLicht (Mar 4, 2012)

Günter Grass was a leftist liberal too, but his work stands a head above Dylans. Nay, *two* heads.


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## Flamme (Dec 30, 2012)

Didnt know dylan wrote so many books???
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bob_Dylan_bibliography#Books_by_Bob_Dylan


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## Zhdanov (Feb 16, 2016)

MacLeod said:


> Some worthy writers for sure, but surely the Nobel Prize would be for living writers


yes, for *writers*.


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## arpeggio (Oct 4, 2012)

Maybe he should have received the Nobel Prize for physics.


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## Strange Magic (Sep 14, 2015)

This thread is great! We have suggestions that Bob Dylan's selection is a CIA plot, or a Leftish Liberal plot. In the past, all along, we've had people groaning that their favorite novelist X was denied the award in favor of that charlatan Y, who couldn't write a shopping list. But now the Committee, in exchange for hard cash? Or the result of brainwashing? Or terrorist threats? selects Bob Dylan, and all the partisans of all the boutique novelists suddenly are as one in their trembling, shivering condemnation of this demeaning of a once-great honor. I'm glad I'm alive to savor all this! :lol:


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## Kieran (Aug 24, 2010)

Flamme said:


> It is obvious he is a leftist liberal, not only from his lyrics but from his whole political work...


But which political work? For example, his Born Again phase was quite to the right, and since then he hasn't denied any of that. I would think of Bob as being more to the right than the left...


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## Kieran (Aug 24, 2010)

Zhdanov said:


> yes, for *writers*.


You do realise that the longer part of the word "songwriter" is the part that says, "writer?" :lol:


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## Kieran (Aug 24, 2010)

Zhdanov said:


> poetry is a free form and coming separately from any other form in the first place and initially designed so without any other form in mind.


Is this really so? It's seems less free when it's designed that way, doesn't it? I suppose I don't need to repeat the oft suggested notion that Homer's "poetry" was designed with music in mind?

He's a _norty, norty_ boy, that Homer!


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## Guest (Oct 18, 2016)

Zhdanov said:


> yes, for *writers*.


"Living" was the most important word.


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## StlukesguildOhio (Dec 25, 2006)

Zhdanov- no idea who's that Bloom fellow, Wagner is not great literature, Hoffmannsthal even less so.

Actually, that's surprising. Bloom is quite likely the best-known and one of the most living literature critics in the English language. He's also something of a stodgy conservative who has repeatedly ranted about the influx of popular culture into the realm of the "high arts." Nevertheless, he and many other would disagree with you with regard to Wagner... and certainly Hofmannsthal.

The Austrian novelist, Stefan Zweig wrote of Hofmannsthal:

_"The appearance of the young Hofmannsthal is and remains notable as one of the greatest miracles of accomplishment early in life; in world literature, except for Keats and Rimbaud, I know no other youthful example of a similar impeccability in the mastering of language, no such breadth of spiritual buoyancy, nothing more permeated with poetic substance even in the most casual lines, than in this magnificent genius, who already in his sixteenth and seventeenth year had inscribed himself in the eternal annals of the German language with unextinguishable verses and prose which today has still not been surpassed."_

_You prefer not to risk exposing your literary heroes to the scrutiny of others. I wonder why?_

no risk whatsoever, for my fave writers are Shakespeare, Cervantes, Hugo, Dickens, Tolstoy, Dostoevsky, Stephenson, Chekhov, London, Gorky, Sholokhov etc.

Obviously a solid collection of great writers... although a rather obvious list (with the exception of London).

Shakespeare would certainly be at the top of my list... as well as _Don Quixote_, _Les Miserables, War & Peace,_ and _The Brothers Karamazov._ But what of Proust? Flaubert? Lawrence Sterne? Firdowsi? And Dante... without question, Dante? And how about a few poets since we are arguing about "poetry": William Blake, John Donne, Petrarch, Milton, Keats, Baudelaire, Rimbaud, Verlaine, T.S. Eliot, Li Bai, Du Fu, Wang Wei, Tennyson, etc... And how about a few modern/contemporary writers... otherwise one might suspect you of stodgy conservatism? Beyond Proust and Eliot, what about Kafka, Rilke, Eugenio Montale, Italo Calvino, Garcia-Lorca, J.L. Borges, Julio Cortazar, Anne Carson, Geoffrey Hill, Gunter Grass, Mario Vargas Llosa, Octavio Paz, Fernando Pessoa, etc...

...the point is, however Nobel prize has been screwed lately to make Nobel roll in his grave, they still gave it to books authors, whereas this time they gave it someone who barely qualifies as something other than a folksongs media figure with agenda behind him promoted through the media & glossy magazines...

Again, is "literature" limited to "book authors"? Homer, _Beowulf_, the Nordic sagas, much of the Bible and the sacred texts of the other ancient religions were all initially transmitted orally... often as song. As we enter a culture that for better or worse has grown increasingly centered upon visual and audio communications I am in no way surprised that a song-writer might be recognized as a notable or exemplary "writer".

By the way... I haven't seen Dylan promoted much by the media in quite some time.


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## StlukesguildOhio (Dec 25, 2006)

One of my favorite poets of gigantic talent, Ezra Pound, never received anything...

Well... when you are openly antiSemitic and make anti-American propaganda broadcasts for Mussolini during WWII he's probably lucky he wasn't executed for treason. At the same time, his poetry was a bit erratic as well. T.S. Eliot was far more consistent. There were also other non-Anglo-American writers that were recognized (Pablo Neruda, Eugenio Montale, Octavio Paz, Juan Ramón Jiménez, Hermann Hesse, Thomas Mann, Giorgos Seferis, Boris Pasternak, Vicente Aleixandre, Czesław Miłosz, Jaroslav Seifert, etc...)


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## EddieRUKiddingVarese (Jan 8, 2013)

I'd go for Banjo Paterson, with a name like Banjo you can't go wrong.....

It was somewhere up the country in a land of rock and scrub,
That they formed an institution called the Geebung Polo Club.
They were long and wiry natives of the rugged mountainside,
And the horse was never saddled that the Geebungs couldn't ride;
But their style of playing polo was irregular and rash -
They had mighty little science, but a mighty lot of dash:
And they played on mountain ponies that were muscular and strong,
Though their coats were quite unpolished, and their manes and tails were long.
And they used to train those ponies wheeling cattle in the scrub:
They were demons, were the members of the Geebung Polo Club.


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## Guest (Oct 19, 2016)

Just in case anyone thinks this nomination came out of the blue, he's been nominated many times before. Nobel are in no rush to give room to musicians.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/post...l-prize-youre-welcome/?utm_term=.756a732bd4a2


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## Zhdanov (Feb 16, 2016)

Kieran said:


> You do realise that the longer part of the word "songwriter" is the part that says, "writer?"


you do realise 'songwriter' not the same as 'writer' like for example 'madman' not the same as 'sportsman'?


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## Flamme (Dec 30, 2012)

Kieran said:


> But which political work? For example, his Born Again phase was quite to the right, and since then he hasn't denied any of that. I would think of Bob as being more to the right than the left...


Where do you see that bro? Most of his songs are pretty revolutionary, low key, for example 'Times they are a changin or 'Hard rains gonna fall'...He is also known for supporting Palestianians and thats what most leftists do...I think he was a leftie in his youth but later became an established liberal, as it usually goes...Leftist and liberal are very similar in some points but not the same...


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## Zhdanov (Feb 16, 2016)

Kieran said:


> It's seems less free when it's designed that way, doesn't it?


'free' is not an asset here, can be dispensable.



Kieran said:


> Homer's "poetry" was designed with music in mind?


that's mere speculations.


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## Zhdanov (Feb 16, 2016)

MacLeod said:


> "Living" was the most important word.


no, writers was, living was understood.


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## Flamme (Dec 30, 2012)

Nobel kinda became like Euro-Vision...In the past there were really good songs and stuff but today, a mere shadow...


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## Zhdanov (Feb 16, 2016)

StlukesguildOhio said:


> And how about a few poets since we are arguing about "poetry": William Blake, John Donne, Petrarch, Milton, Keats, Baudelaire, Rimbaud, Verlaine, T.S. Eliot, Li Bai, Du Fu, Wang Wei, Tennyson, etc...


you forgot Joseph Brodsky.


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## Strange Magic (Sep 14, 2015)

Zhdanov said:


> no, writers was, living was understood.


Some people just enjoy being argumentative. Nobel prizes are always and only given to the living--everybody knows that.


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## Zhdanov (Feb 16, 2016)

Strange Magic said:


> Nobel prizes are always and only given to the living--everybody knows that.


i well know this. the point was it should be a writer.


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## Kieran (Aug 24, 2010)

Flamme said:


> Where do you see that bro? Most of his songs are pretty revolutionary, low key, for example 'Times they are a changin or 'Hard rains gonna fall'...He is also known for supporting Palestianians and thats what most leftists do...I think he was a leftie in his youth but later became an established liberal, as it usually goes...Leftist and liberal are very similar in some points but not the same...


If you listen to his song Neighborhood Bully, it's clearly in support of Israel. I've never heard of Bob being pro-Palestine, and those song you mentioned, I wouldn't think of them as being liberal. But even if they were, he was 23. He's much more conservative and traditional than people imagine. Bruce Springsteen would be more an example of a let's-make-it-up-as-we-go-along liberal...


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## Kieran (Aug 24, 2010)

Zhdanov said:


> you do realise 'songwriter' not the same as 'writer' like for example 'madman' not the same as 'sportsman'?


You do realise that "writer" means "writer", and clearly a songwriter is a person whose job is writing?


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## StlukesguildOhio (Dec 25, 2006)

Zhdanov said:


> you forgot Joseph Brodsky.


I prefer Pushkin, Anna Akhmatova, Marina Tsvetaeva, and Boris Pasternak.


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## Guest (Oct 19, 2016)

Zhdanov said:


> i well know this. the point was it should be a writer.


The point was that it's no use citing dead writers if you want to say who should be getting the Nobel instead of Dylan!


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

Surely time to let this thread go everyone. It's a done deal and no amount of arguing/discussing will alter the fact. His name is on the trophy and that's that with that!


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## Flamme (Dec 30, 2012)

Kieran said:


> If you listen to his song Neighborhood Bully, it's clearly in support of Israel. I've never heard of Bob being pro-Palestine, and those song you mentioned, I wouldn't think of them as being liberal. But even if they were, he was 23. He's much more conservative and traditional than people imagine. Bruce Springsteen would be more an example of a let's-make-it-up-as-we-go-along liberal...


Hey this is very strange! First time ever i hear any1 talks about BD as a conservative! Hope you will not tell me his ' raising of a blue eyed boy' in 'Hard Rain' isnt some flirting with eugenics and racism! I remember on some concert in support of Palestine i saw on YT, he was even wearing an arabic balaklava...


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## Zhdanov (Feb 16, 2016)

Kieran said:


> You do realise that "writer" means "writer", and clearly a songwriter is a person whose job is writing?


you do realize that man means man, be it madman or batman, he still has balls?


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## Zhdanov (Feb 16, 2016)

MacLeod said:


> The point was that it's no use citing dead writers


read before replying. i cited them to not say give them a nobel.



MacLeod said:


> if you want to say who should be getting the Nobel instead of Dylan!


some Chinese maybe?


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

If dead people can vote for Clinton, why not dead authors receiving a Nobel?


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## Strange Magic (Sep 14, 2015)

hpowders said:


> If dead people can vote for Clinton, why not dead authors receiving a Nobel?


Weak. This is weak.


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## Guest (Oct 20, 2016)

[deleted ]


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## Zhdanov (Feb 16, 2016)

Barbebleu said:


> His name is on the trophy and that's that with that!


nope, i don't put up with this bs.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Strange Magic said:


> Weak. This is weak.


And that's putting it very polite.


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## Kieran (Aug 24, 2010)

Zhdanov said:


> you do realize that man means man, be it madman or batman, he still has balls?


:lol: That's funny, but I'm kinda thinking you're not being funny.

And that makes it even funnier...


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## Zhdanov (Feb 16, 2016)

Kieran said:


> That's funny, but I'm kinda thinking you're not being funny.


well, English isn't my first language, you know.


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## Kieran (Aug 24, 2010)

Zhdanov said:


> well, English isn't my first language, you know.


That's fair enough, and I hope you know that no offence was intended. Think of it this way: Dylan's writing is meant to be performed, not read on the page. And his "recitations" make these words among the most vivid and transcendent examples of poetry in modern usage. He's dramatic, descriptive, witty, occasionally biting, and in his greatest works, always saying something. I see by reading articles that his award has divided opinion, with professors, poets and writers being split down the middle, with neither side capable of winning the argument. This has been the case since Dylan first divided opinion in the sixties, and more or less his whole life has been spent rowing against the tide, largely being under-rated and misunderstood. I doubt he even considers himself a poet - but the award isn't for poetry, anyway.

Best to just listen to him, and enjoy or not enjoy...


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

Zhdanov said:


> nope, i don't put up with this bs.


Whether or not you put up with it doesn't alter the fact that he won it. There's lots of things in the world that I don't like but I can't change them so I just live with the fact. And one man's BS is another man's good deal.

Can I request that the mods kill this thread before it deteriorates into a slanging match. If somebody cares to start a thread on what constitutes literature go right ahead.


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## Zhdanov (Feb 16, 2016)

Kieran said:


> Dylan's writing is meant to be performed, not read on the page.


the thing is, his writings don't deserve nomination for prize in literature.



Kieran said:


> This has been the case since Dylan first divided opinion in the sixties,


he shouldn't have acted as a trojan horse in the folksong movement.



Kieran said:


> his whole life has been spent rowing against the tide, largely being under-rated and misunderstood.


that's because the stuff he wrote wasn't good enough.


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## Zhdanov (Feb 16, 2016)

Barbebleu said:


> Whether or not you put up with it doesn't alter the fact that he won it.


it wasn't him who won it, there was an agenda behind this.


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## Kieran (Aug 24, 2010)

Zhdanov said:


> the thing is, his writings don't deserve nomination for prize in literature.
> 
> he shouldn't have acted as a trojan horse in the folksong movement.
> 
> that's because the stuff he wrote wasn't good enough.


The nobel committee disagree. So do an endless list of uni professors, poets, writers, singers, statesmen, etc. I'm not sure what you mean by "Trojan horse in the folk movement" - Dylan more or less doesn't believe in "movements" as such, but his folk music was inspirational and he drove those types of songs into realms previously unheard...


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## Strange Magic (Sep 14, 2015)

Zhdanov said:


> it wasn't him who won it, there was an agenda behind this.


Weak. This is weak. We're deeply into bald assertions by the terminally disgruntled. Actually, is there a term "gruntled"? I've also wondered about disheveled vs. "heveled".


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

Zhdanov said:


> it wasn't him who won it, there was an agenda behind this.


It was rigged! IT WAS RIGGED! *IT WAS RIGGED!!*


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## amfortas (Jun 15, 2011)

Strange Magic said:


> Weak. This is weak. We're deeply into bald assertions by the terminally disgruntled. Actually, is there a term "gruntled"? I've also wondered about disheveled vs. "heveled".


I'm pretty nonchalant about it. Then again, if I wasn't, what would I be?


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## Headphone Hermit (Jan 8, 2014)

Strange Magic said:


> Weak. This is weak. We're deeply into bald assertions by the terminally disgruntled. Actually, is there a term "gruntled"? I've also wondered about disheveled vs. "heveled".


yes - I like 'unpaired words' - one of my favourite would be _Gormful_ as the antonym of _'gormless'_

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unpaired_word


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## Headphone Hermit (Jan 8, 2014)

Art Rock said:


> It was rigged! IT WAS RIGGED! *IT WAS RIGGED!!*


Hang on, there, Donald ..... the result isn't in yet!


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## Headphone Hermit (Jan 8, 2014)

amfortas said:


> I'm pretty nonchalant about it. Then again, if I wasn't, what would I be?


Tchah - it isn't in the Wikipedia list https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unpaired_word

Another case for conspiracy theory - what *else* are 'they' keeping back from us? :lol:


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## Flamme (Dec 30, 2012)

Is this ganging up on poor Zdhanov???


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## Zhdanov (Feb 16, 2016)

Kieran said:


> The nobel committee disagree.


disagree or not, they did what was told them.



Kieran said:


> I'm not sure what you mean by "Trojan horse in the folk movement"


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## Zhdanov (Feb 16, 2016)

Art Rock said:


> It was rigged!


yes of course it was.


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## Kieran (Aug 24, 2010)

Sorry, it still isn't clear how he was a Trojan horse. 

Who would benefit from a conspiracy to give him the award?


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## Zhdanov (Feb 16, 2016)

Kieran said:


> Sorry, it still isn't clear how he was a Trojan horse.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_Dylan_controversy



Kieran said:


> Who would benefit from a conspiracy to give him the award?


Multiculturalism.


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## Kieran (Aug 24, 2010)

Bob was never going to stay "just a folksinger", plugging in wasn't any sort of betrayal, because there was nobody to betray.

And since he plugged in, he's also gone country, made gospel records, pop records, gone back to rock, etc. He's not easy to pigeon hole. As for multiculturalism, the Nobel prize is already multicultural enough, no need for the CIA to help out there...


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## Strange Magic (Sep 14, 2015)

Zhdanov said:


> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_Dylan_controversy
> 
> Multiculturalism.


Methinks my leg is being pulled. No other reason to keep this thread going.....


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## amfortas (Jun 15, 2011)

Strange Magic said:


> Methinks my leg is being pulled. No other reason to keep this thread going.....


It's all a vast conspiracy. You just have to connect the dots.


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## Headphone Hermit (Jan 8, 2014)

Zhdanov said:


> disagree or not, they did what was told them.


Who? What evidence? For what purpose?

These are genuine questions and some evidence would be useful to support these claims


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## DonAlfonso (Oct 4, 2014)

Kieran said:


> I doubt he even considers himself a poet - but the award isn't for poetry, anyway.


"Yippee! I'm a poet, and I know it
Hope I don't blow it"
I Shall Be Free No. 10 - 1964


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## Guest (Oct 21, 2016)

Flamme said:


> Is this ganging up on poor Zdhanov???


Or Zdhanov taking on all comers?


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## Zhdanov (Feb 16, 2016)

amfortas said:


> It's all a vast conspiracy. You just have to connect the dots.


no need to. Multiculturalism is overtly sending its messages.


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## Zhdanov (Feb 16, 2016)

Headphone Hermit said:


> Who? What evidence?


i can't give you no evidence.



Headphone Hermit said:


> For what purpose?


to undermine the position of common sense and spread chaos.


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## Flamme (Dec 30, 2012)

The *answer* my friend, is blowing in the wind...


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## Zhdanov (Feb 16, 2016)

...meanwhile - https://www.theguardian.com/music/2...es-nobel-prize-literature-win-removed-website


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## Flamme (Dec 30, 2012)

Too modest???


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## EddieRUKiddingVarese (Jan 8, 2013)

Did you know that Dylan approached Zappa in the early 80's to produce one of his albums, just think of how that might have sounded. Dylan pulled out because he thought Zappa fee was too high.

In the end Dylan chose Mark Knopfler for the _Infidels _album_.

_Wonder what sort of lyrics that Zappa/ Dylan might have some up with- probably would have kill any future chance for a Bob Nobel............


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