# Richard Wagner



## Clouds Weep Snowflakes (Feb 24, 2019)

Anyone into his operas? I think he was very talented, and the fact he was quite an anti-Semite and inspiration to Hitler and his operas are not conducted publicly in Israel because of that (though thankfully selling them for private use is perfectly legal) doesn't diminish the talent he had; Theodor Herzl himself admired Wagner's operas!
I own these on CDs:

Parsifal
Tristan and Isolde
The Flying Dutchman

What else should I get?

Now for another question; do you enjoy listening to music without speaking the language? I enjoy music in Latin and German (^Wagner) without speaking them (though I wished I would, I actually wanted to learn German but my family didn't want me to), though people commonly say my English is very good.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Into Wagner, you ask?

:lol::lol::lol:

Lots of us are. I, for example, can talk your ear off on the subject (just to alert you in case you want to pick up a good set of ear plugs).

There is no Wagner opera, at least after _Rienzi_, that you should be without. There's so much to discover in them that a lifetime is hardly enough. Besides being an astonishing musical genius, RW is simply one of the principal shapers of Western music and culture.

There are numerous threads on this forum about him and his work.


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## JoeSaunders (Jan 29, 2015)

Yeah he's pretty good, wrote some banging tunes. But most importantly, he once owned a Newfoundland dog called Robber, who escorted Wagner on the stormy voyage to London which supposedly inspired his _Flying Dutchman_. He was a very good boy, and didn't alert any border guards to the Wagner's illegal border-hopping by barking. Sadly he ran away once Wagner made it to Paris


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

JoeSaunders said:


> Yeah he's pretty good, wrote some banging tunes. But most importantly, he once owned a Newfoundland dog called Robber, who escorted Wagner on the stormy voyage to London which supposedly inspired his _Flying Dutchman_. He was a very good boy, and didn't alert any border guards to the Wagner's illegal border-hopping by barking. Sadly he ran away once Wagner made it to Paris


Among his many other surprising interests, Wagner was a passionate dog-lover and an advocate for animal rights. His aversion to killing animals made him try vegetarianism for a while, but he found an all-vegetable diet didn't agree with him. His concern for animals turns up in _Parsifal,_ where Gurnemanz gives our supercilious hero a stern lecture for shooting a swan. It's Parsifal's first experience of conscience, and it begins his journey toward compassion which enables him to resist the temptation of Kundry, heal the wounded Amfortas, and redeem the corrupt order of the Grail.


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## JoeSaunders (Jan 29, 2015)

Woodduck said:


> Among his many other surprising interests, Wagner was a passionate dog-lover and an advocate for animal rights. His aversion to killing animals made him try vegetarianism for a while, but he found an all-vegetable diet didn't agree with him. His concern for animals turns up in _Parsifal,_ where Gurnemanz gives our supercilious hero a stern lecture for shooting a swan. It's Parsifal's first experience of conscience, and it begins his journey toward compassion which enables him to resist the temptation of Kundry, heal the wounded Amfortas, and redeem the corrupt order of the Grail.


Indeed, and in the late 1870s Wagner had publicly argued against vivisection after encountering a pamphlet written about it. Privately, Cosima wrote that Wagner had expressed repugnance for the practice. It's facts like these that make me sad when people write off Wagner as a "Great artist, awful person" (not that his animal-loving ways directly make up for his more unpleasant aspects). I think we ought to replace 'awful' with '..._very complicated_' - preferably with audible italics!

And here's the grave marker for Wagner's later Newfoundland dog, Russ, whom he had buried in Bayreuth.










Anywho, if anyone else has any Wagnerian animal facts feel free to join in! (probably should have started a new thread, but hijacking someone else's is fun and mischievous)


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## Sloe (May 9, 2014)

Mästersångarna i Nürnberg:






Untschuldigung Die Meistersinger von Nürnberg:


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## Guest (Mar 11, 2019)

I'm a big fan. Tend to follow the things that go on in Bayreuth each year and attend performances in my own city as well.


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

You don't own a Ring?
Get on it my brother


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

Itullian said:


> You don't own a Ring?
> Get on it my brother


And anyone who is really into Wagner can't have just one Ring. No, not one, not five, maybe eight will do, but then there are videos too!


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## Clouds Weep Snowflakes (Feb 24, 2019)

Itullian said:


> You don't own a Ring?
> Get on it my brother


A ring? What do you mean by that?


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## Bonetan (Dec 22, 2016)

Clouds Weep Snowflakes said:


> A ring? What do you mean by that?


A recording of the Ring Cycle...


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## Clouds Weep Snowflakes (Feb 24, 2019)

Bonetan said:


> A recording of the Ring Cycle...


Do you mean this?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Der_Ring_des_Nibelungen


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

Clouds Weep Snowflakes said:


> Do you mean this?
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Der_Ring_des_Nibelungen


Yup......................


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## Sloe (May 9, 2014)

Fritz Kobus said:


> And anyone who is really into Wagner can't have just one Ring. No, not one, not five, maybe eight will do, but then there are videos too!


I say as someone else said every Wagner opera after Rienzi is worth finding out.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Sloe said:


> I say as someone else said every Wagner opera after Rienzi is worth finding out.


That someone must be pretty smart.


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## NLAdriaan (Feb 6, 2019)

Clouds Weep Snowflakes said:


> Anyone into his operas? I think he was very talented, and the fact he was quite an anti-Semite and inspiration to Hitler and his operas are not conducted publicly in Israel because of that (though thankfully selling them for private use is perfectly legal) doesn't diminish the talent he had; Theodor Herzl himself admired Wagner's operas!
> I own these on CDs:
> 
> Parsifal
> ...


What Wagner as animal lover has to do with this.

I understand you live in Israel? For Wagner's music, you can maybe prevent some discussion if you get the Wagner set as conducted by your countryman:









The horrendous links to nationalism and antisemitism are rightfully connected to Wagner and also partly to his music. In his defense, it was Wagner's family (especially his wife Cosima and his daughter-in-law Winifred) that connected the dots and turned Wagner's heritage into a cultural centre for Nazi's and consequently his music into the soundtrack for the holocaust. Apart from all of this, Wagner was a turning point in musical history. You hear his musical influence in works of Bruckner, Mahler and Hugo Wolf, who I can all highly recommend for future exploration.


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## Reichstag aus LICHT (Oct 25, 2010)

NLAdriaan said:


> In his defense, it was Wagner's family (especially his wife Cosima and his daughter-in-law Winifred) that connected the dots and turned Wagner's heritage into a cultural centre for Nazis.


From what I've read, I get the impression that Cosima was even more antisemitic than her husband.


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## Reichstag aus LICHT (Oct 25, 2010)

Clouds Weep Snowflakes said:


> Now for another question; do you enjoy listening to music without speaking the language?


Yes. I don't speak Russian or Czech, but that hasn't stopped me loving the fine operas of Tchaikovsky, Borodin, Rimsky-Korsakov, Prokofiev, Shostakovich and Janáček.


> I enjoy music in Latin and German without speaking them (though I wished I would, I actually wanted to learn German but my family didn't want me to)


I studied Latin and French at school, but I gained an understanding of Italian from listening to opera (although I don't really speak Italian). I became pretty fluent in German just by listening to, and singing, Wagner and Schubert (my German friends find it hard to believe that I haven't had formal tuition in the language, but it's quite true). I was chatting to some local people in German during an interval at Bayreuth and they thought I was Dutch; as I'm British, I took that as a great compliment to my spoken German!


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## Granate (Jun 25, 2016)

I would watch all the operas (from _the flying dutchman_ on) with subtitles first. I think despite all the greatness, it's a tough repertoire to dive into, not made for beginners.

On video, this was my playlist

Hollander: W. Nelsson, Bayreuther Festspiele
Tannhäuser: C. Davis, Bayreuther Festspiele
Lohengrin: C. Abbado, Wiener Staatsoper
Tristan und Isolde: D. Barenboim, Bayreuther Festspiele (I go for the Jean Pierre Ponelle production)
Meistersinger: J. Levine, Metropolitan Opera (Mind Ben Heppner who doesn't look the part for many members here)
Ring des Nibelungen: P. Boulez, Bayreuther Festspiele
Parsifal: H. Stein, Bayreuther Festspiele (Staging); A. Pappano, Covent Garden (Acting) (really well sung by both casts)

I don't speak German either but it took long time to start appreciating the 10 operas and their plots. Seeing that you just knew that a Ring is a cycle of 4 operas, I welcome you to this world and beg you for patience with Wagner.


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## JoeSaunders (Jan 29, 2015)

WOOHOO I ACTUALLY FOUND SOME PICTURES OF HIS DOGS!!!!!

This is Russ:









This is Marke:









This is Fasolt:









This is Fafner:









(Those four pics are apparently scan-ins from Hans von Wolzogen's _Richard Wagner und die Tierwelt_, third edition)

Oh, and this is Pohl:


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## Reichstag aus LICHT (Oct 25, 2010)

^^^

Marke is also buried at Bayreuth, next to Wagner's - and Russ's - grave. I've been there many times, and I've noticed that people occasionally leave chews and dog-biscuits on the dogs' graves instead of flowers, which is a nice touch


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## WildThing (Feb 21, 2017)

Granate said:


> I would watch all the operas (from _the flying dutchman_ on) with subtitles first. I think despite all the greatness, it's a tough repertoire to dive into, not made for beginners.
> 
> On video, this was my playlist
> 
> ...


It really just depends on the individual. You say this repetoire wasn't made for the beginner, yet for myself coming from a background of mostly pop music and with a strong interest in cinema and theatrical arts, I took to Wagner immediately and his music is largely what inspired me to explore classical music in general. Personally I found it much more difficult to learn to appreciate large scale, abstract, instrumental musical forms without lyrics.

My only concern about telling someone new to Wagner to become acquainted to him through video is the difficulty in finding performances that are exceptional musically as well as compelling dramatically and which stay true to Wagner's conception. I'm afraid many productions available on video would be downright confusing for someone who had little idea what the original plot was; and even when they are actually coherent with the music and text, the acting can often be quite stiff and dull, as in the 80s Levine Met Ring. The good thing about the great audio recordings of the works is they come with a synopsis and allow you to follow along with the libretto and picture the action in your mind's eye.


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## Reichstag aus LICHT (Oct 25, 2010)

WildThing said:


> I'm afraid many productions available on video would be downright confusing for someone who had little idea what the original plot was; and even when they are actually coherent with the music and text, the acting can often be quite stiff and dull, as in the 80s Levine Met Ring. The good thing about the great audio recordings of the works is they come with a synopsis and allow you to follow along with the libretto and picture the action in your mind's eye.


I agree totally. Other good things about audio recordings is that they're easy to listen to on the move (e.g. on your phone/iPod), and are more conducive to repeated exposure than videos, which in turn makes it easier to get familiar with the music. For example, I've got three Ring Cycles on DVD (Boulez, Barenboim and Schønwandt) and, whilst I really enjoyed all three, I've only watched them a handful of times in total. In contrast, I must have listened to the Solti, Karajan and Böhm Rings more than a hundred times over the years, and there are many other Rings I have on audio (e.g. Furtwängler, Goodall, Keilberth) which I've listened to on multiple occasions.


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## sharkeysnight (Oct 19, 2017)

Those are some darn cute dogs. I've only seen Meistersinger and the first two parts of the Ring cycle, so I have some catching up to do, but Meistersinger is one of my favorite operas. Looking forward to next year's Dutchman here in Toronto!


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## Barelytenor (Nov 19, 2011)

Clouds Weep Snowflakes said:


> A ring? What do you mean by that?


Wow. We gonna have to do some serious trainin' here.

https://www.wagnerheim.com/

On the plus side, I am _un petit peu jaloux _of someone who has no idea of the delights in store ...

Kind regards, :tiphat:

George


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

WildThing said:


> It really just depends on the individual. You say this repetoire wasn't made for the beginner, yet for myself coming from a background of mostly pop music and with a strong interest in cinema and theatrical arts, I took to Wagner immediately and his music is largely what inspired me to explore classical music in general. Personally I found it much more difficult to learn to appreciate large scale, abstract, instrumental musical forms without lyrics.
> 
> My only concern about telling someone new to Wagner to become acquainted to him through video is the difficulty in finding performances that are exceptional musically as well as compelling dramatically and which stay true to Wagner's conception. I'm afraid many productions available on video would be downright confusing for someone who had little idea what the original plot was; and even when they are actually coherent with the music and text, the acting can often be quite stiff and dull, as in the 80s Levine Met Ring. The good thing about the great audio recordings of the works is they come with a synopsis and allow you to follow along with the libretto and picture the action in your mind's eye.


Most people of a certain age discovered Wagner before videos were available, and I too would recommend beginning with the best (mainly older) audio recordings, following along with the libretto, and letting the music conjure the _mise en scene,_ which no music does as vividly as Wagner's. As with reading great literature, you will form your own mental images of what the operas are like. The down side to this is that you may never be satisfied with any production you'll subsequently see on video or in the opera house. It's virtually impossible to do visual justice to these imaginative creations, but the music pretty well says it all on its own.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Reichstag aus LICHT said:


> From what I've read, I get the impression that Cosima was even more antisemitic than her husband.


From all accounts an absolutely poisonous woman - even more so than her husband. Unfortunately, however, it was Wagner's own views that gave the seed bed to turn his works into a cultural heritage for the Nazis. Without Wagner's own input the Nazis would have had nothing to play with.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

As I have said before, Wagner tends to do me on length but there are patches that are really fine music. If only he'd had some competition from a librettist as Verdi did things might have been better. Of course, to Wagner buffs everything is incomparable and he could do no wrong, but to those of us less convinced he might have done better if he'd have realised the old maxim 'less is more'.
Having said that, a good place to start with Wagner is with excerpts from The Ring or the love duet in Tristan. I was playing the duet in the Kleiber version and was amazed at the lightness Kleiber gets into the music - quite astonishing. And Price is a gloriously sung Isolde.


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## amfortas (Jun 15, 2011)

Woodduck said:


> Most people of a certain age discovered Wagner before videos were available, and I too would recommend beginning with the best (mainly older) audio recordings, following along with the libretto, and letting the music conjure the _mise en scene,_ which no music does as vividly as Wagner's.


I would also recommend beginning with an audio recording. And based on my own youthful experience, I would suggest following along, not with the libretto, but with a piano-vocal score (one which includes both original and translated text). If you read music even a little bit, a reduced score can give you a visual counterpart to what you're hearing and a firmer initial grasp of Wagner's compositions. Hopefully your local library has such resources available.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

amfortas said:


> I would also recommend beginning with an audio recording. And based on my own youthful experience, I would suggest following along, not with the libretto, but with a piano-vocal score (one which includes both original and translated text). If you read music even a little bit, a reduced score can give you a visual counterpart to what you're hearing and a firmer initial grasp of Wagner's compositions. Hopefully your local library has such resources available.


I was able to do this as well. I took the scores out of my local city library and played through them at the piano - not very well, but well enough to savor their delights and learn some valuable things about music. It was wonderful to be able to pause and repeat passages whenever I wanted to. Fifty years later I still keep the score to _Parsifal_ on my piano (as Puccini did, by the way, for inspiration) and open it whenever I'm in the mood for some harmonic enchantment.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

DavidA said:


> As I have said before, Wagner tends to do me on length but there are patches that are really fine music. If only he'd had some competition from a librettist as Verdi did things might have been better. Of course, to Wagner buffs everything is incomparable and he could do no wrong, but to those of us less convinced he might have done better if he'd have realised the old maxim 'less is more'.


I always wonder which parts of Wagner's operas the "less is more" people want to give up. Most operas have more and less exciting parts, and for an oldster like me an entire evening in the theater is no longer very inviting, but if one's backside has limited endurance one can always listen at home to an act at a time. When I was young and vigorous and just discovering Wagner I could probably have sat enraptured through the entire fifteen hours of the _Ring_ with a bag of potato chips and a bathroom break after _Die Walkure._


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

I think to start on the Ring, one of those Ring without words cds would be great.
It would familiarize you with all the melodies, leitmotivs, etc.
I think this would help.

A cd of all the orchestral music, preludes, scenes, overtures, of all his operas would be a great way to start.


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## Reichstag aus LICHT (Oct 25, 2010)

Reichstag aus LICHT said:


> Marke is also buried at Bayreuth, next to Wagner's - and Russ's - grave. I've been there many times, and I've noticed that people occasionally leave chews and dog-biscuits on the dogs' graves instead of flowers, which is a nice touch


Here are photos of Marke's and Russ's final resting places. Note the bones left for Russ; presumably Marke had already eaten his 









"Hier ruht Wahnfrieds treuer Wachter und Freund: der gute, schöne Marke" (Hear rests Wahnfried's faithful guard and friend: the good, beautiful Marke)









"Hier ruht und wacht Wagners Russ" (Here Wagner's Russ sleeps and keeps watch)


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

Reichstag aus LICHT said:


> Here are photos of Marke's and Russ's final resting places. Note the bones left for Russ; presumably Marke had already eaten his
> 
> View attachment 114237
> 
> ...


Very touching.
Thank you for the pictures.


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

An act of a Wagner opera is not just an opera act.
It's a symphonic piece all by itself.
I can easily listen to just one act and feel satisfied.

His works are conceived symphonically.
Each act a movement.
Then integrated as a whole.
They can be enjoyed separately or together.
mho


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

My only advice is that you're going to want to interpret Wagner on today's terms, an obsession with WWII, politics, left/right economics, religion, race, etc. Wagner can certainly be interpreted like that (any many contemporary stage directors unfortunately do), but try clearing your mind, setting aside your "knowledge" and pre-conceived notions of "Wagner the horrible human being", and embrace Wagner's works with a child-like wonder and ignorance (ironically a major theme of his works), on their own terms. Wagner's works are above all else a meditation on deep, universal themes like love, compassion, lust, and greed, and achieving the balance between them, that are universal across time and place. Wagner, despite a megalomania and pettiness exhibited in his personal life, had a lot of compassion for the human race at large and his works are more Buddha than Hitler or Nietzsche.


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## JosefinaHW (Nov 21, 2015)

JoeSaunders said:


> WOOHOO I ACTUALLY FOUND SOME PICTURES OF HIS DOGS!!!!!
> 
> This is Russ:
> 
> ...


I saw a reference to these images in the Activity Stream. I love all dogs no matter what they look like or how well they are built in terms of the breeds standards, but I am shocked by these photos. Remember what I just said, plz, but these are not good representatives of the Newfoundland Breed. What shocks me about this is that I thought Wagner was a connoisseur of the finest of the finest. Fasolt and Fafner are the closest of the group. There are all kinds of reasons why he might not have known or cared.... maybe, he wasn't such a stickler for the finest of the finest. Whatever the case, I love anybody who loves (and makes the necessary sacrifices to adopt) a Newfie.


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## marceliotstein (Feb 23, 2019)

I'll find out what I think in 2 days when I catch Das Rheingold at the Met. My first run-in with Wagner. I'm also going to catch Gotterdammerung there in a few weeks, but plan to skip the middle two. I have been studying up on the literary sources of the Ring cycle, and of course listening to recordings. I can already tell I'm going to enjoy the epic/mythological side of these operas.


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## JosefinaHW (Nov 21, 2015)

marceliotstein said:


> I'll find out what I think in 2 days when I catch Das Rheingold at the Met. My first run-in with Wagner. I'm also going to catch Gotterdammerung there in a few weeks, but plan to skip the middle two. I have been studying up on the literary sources of the Ring cycle, and of course listening to recordings. I can already tell I'm going to enjoy the epic/mythological side of these operas.


Congratulations on being able to go to those performances!


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## NLAdriaan (Feb 6, 2019)

Couchie said:


> My only advice is that you're going to want to interpret Wagner on today's terms, an obsession with WWII, politics, left/right economics, religion, race, etc. Wagner can certainly be interpreted like that (any many contemporary stage directors unfortunately do), but try clearing your mind, setting aside your "knowledge" and pre-conceived notions of "Wagner the horrible human being", and embrace Wagner's works with a child-like wonder and ignorance (ironically a major theme of his works), on their own terms. Wagner's works are above all else a meditation on deep, universal themes like love, compassion, lust, and greed, and achieving the balance between them, that are universal across time and place. Wagner, despite a megalomania and pettiness exhibited in his personal life, had a lot of compassion for the human race at large and his works are more Buddha than Hitler or Nietzsche.


I agree. Listen to his beautiful rich music and to his fairytale libretto's and add no more weight to it then to a Harry Potter story. It is just entertainment.

In order to do so however, I would advise to ignore the entire Bayreuth frenzy. Long after Wagners death, his person and heritage was tarnished and abused by his family and then religiously adopted by a large German nationalist establishment. Then it was abused by Hitler (also a dog owner). To this day, this unprecedented religious devotion goes on. You won't find graves of Bach's or Beethoven's dogs, let alone that people put bones with ribbons there (BTW, a ribbon is not very healthy for a dog). Having said this, I realize that in the name of most religions, horrible things:devil: are done and beautiful music is composed:angel:. I just wouldn't add RW to the likes of JC or the holy mother. Wagner did renew music, but that's about it.


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## Reichstag aus LICHT (Oct 25, 2010)

NLAdriaan said:


> a ribbon is not very healthy for a dog


...unless it's a bow-wow


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

NLAdriaan said:


> I agree. Listen to his beautiful rich music and to his fairytale libretto's and add no more weight to it then to a Harry Potter story. It is just entertainment.
> 
> In order to do so however, I would advise to ignore the entire Bayreuth frenzy. Long after Wagners death, his person and heritage was tarnished and abused by his family and then religiously adopted by a large German nationalist establishment. Then it was abused by Hitler (also a dog owner). To this day, this unprecedented religious devotion goes on. You won't find graves of Bach's or Beethoven's dogs, let alone that people put bones with ribbons there (BTW, a ribbon is not very healthy for a dog). Having said this, I realize that in the name of most religions, horrible things:devil: are done and beautiful music is composed:angel:. I just wouldn't add RW to the likes of JC or the holy mother. Wagner did renew music, but that's about it.


There's a lot of both music and thematic parallels between Wagner's Ring and movies like Lord of the Rings/Star Wars/Harry Potter/Game of Thrones (although "Wagner did it first"). The themes of a struggle between worldly desires and power and compassion is of course as old as the Old Testament itself, but we still continue to not "get it" on a massive scale.

In Wagner's day, the Ring was translated into books and image-books intended more for mass consumption than the operas themselves. The fact that he attracts both the common man and serious academic critique just speaks to his universal genius.


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## lextune (Nov 25, 2016)

WildThing said:


> It really just depends on the individual. You say this repetoire wasn't made for the beginner, yet for myself coming from a background of mostly pop music and with a strong interest in cinema and theatrical arts, I took to Wagner immediately and his music is largely what inspired me to explore classical music in general. Personally I found it much more difficult to learn to appreciate large scale, abstract, instrumental musical forms without lyrics.


Very similar story:

I didn't meet my wife until I was almost 40 years old. She was/is a mathematician. She was also a music lover, but really only rock/pop/top40, she had never had very much exposure to classical. 
I am a classical pianist. As we got to know each other, she obviously got to hear a lot of the piano literature. Then when we moved in together she suddenly had hours of live piano music every day, ha! I took her to a few piano recitals, to the symphony, even a chamber recital once. But I never thought to try and share Wagner with her. It was too long. Too complicated. Just too daunting. Too much everything I assumed.

Lo and behold, one day she came to the music room, and I was not playing/practicing the piano. Instead I had a DVD of Das Rhinegold playing. She loved the music, the singing, she was fascinated by the imagery. Within minutes, she was talking about how much more difficult it was to appreciate instrumental music, than this music. This music spoke to her instantly.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

lextune said:


> Very similar story:
> 
> I didn't meet my wife until I was almost 40 years old. She was/is a mathematician. She was also a music lover, but really only rock/pop/top40, she had never had very much exposure to classical.
> I am a classical pianist. As we got to know each other, she obviously got to hear a lot of the piano literature. Then when we moved in together she suddenly had hours of live piano music every day, ha! I took her to a few piano recitals, to the symphony, even a chamber recital once. But I never thought to try and share Wagner with her. It was too long. Too complicated. Just too daunting. Too much everything I assumed.
> ...


I love stories like this. I've never had any sympathy for the idea that some music is just "too difficult" or "too sophisticated" for classical music novices. That goes for opera too. Wagner's were not the first operas I heard, but their fascinating stories and powerful music captured my imagination immediately. That was over 50 years ago, and I've learned since that these works can grow with you, revealing layers of significance over time as you're ready to grasp them. The _Ring_ could actually be an ideal operatic experience for many young people, who might be drawn to the heroic, fairy-tale elements of its plot but then find themselves sufficiently captivated by the music to investigate the work's deeper meanings.

I hope your wife continues to enjoy her Wagnerian adventure.


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

The hardest part about getting into Wagner is remembering the "W" is pronounced like a "V".


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Couchie said:


> The hardest part about getting into Wagner is remembering the "W" is pronounced like a "V".


Yeah. I've heard him called "Wogg-ner." Probably by one of those people who prefer Moe's art.


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## howlingfantods (Jul 27, 2015)

I have the opposite problem--I always call the barbeque grills "Vogner".


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## mountmccabe (May 1, 2013)

JosefinaHW said:


> I saw a reference to these images in the Activity Stream. I love all dogs no matter what they look like or how well they are built in terms of the breeds standards, but I am shocked by these photos. Remember what I just said, plz, but these are not good representatives of the Newfoundland Breed. What shocks me about this is that I thought Wagner was a connoisseur of the finest of the finest. Fasolt and Fafner are the closest of the group. There are all kinds of reasons why he might not have known or cared.... maybe, he wasn't such a stickler for the finest of the finest. Whatever the case, I love anybody who loves (and makes the necessary sacrifices to adopt) a Newfie.


Those are drawings of dogs from 140 or more years ago. Modern breed standards have little to do with how dogs looked and/or breed standards - to the extent that they existed - from that long ago. And many modern breed standards aren't about being good dogs, but are actively unhealthy and encourage unhealthy breeding.

Here's one example of change: modern Newfies are quite a bit larger than those of 120 years ago. A description from a book from 1900 "Average weights, one hundred pounds for dogs and eighty-five pounds for bitches" describes dogs 50% smaller than those we see today. (See here for the source and more history of Newfies as smaller dogs than they are now).

There were certainly Newfoundlands in Europe in the 1800s, often brought over to breed with other large dogs (such as when St. Bernards almost went extinct in the 1850s... and were no longer much for snow after the longer coats that resulted from breeding with Newfies). So there were dogs available, but there were probably also a good number of dogs descended from Newfies crossed one of those large dogs.

Breed standards were very regional at the time. The big kennel clubs and dog shows were only just getting going. Maybe Wagner was interested in having dogs that met what a local breeder called the standard for Newfies, but that seems strange to me. Maybe he wanted his dogs later in his life to remind him of Robber, whatever that dog looked like. He didn't get Robber purposefully from a breeder; Robber lived in a shop that Wagner frequented and they took to each other... and it seems bizarre to me to consider that breed standards had anything to do with that.

And, of course, he didn't have just Newfies. Pohl in that last picture was a Bloodhound (or a St. Hubert's Hound). Wagner also had a King Charles Spaniel named Pep (or perhaps it was one of the, at the time, other breeds of Toy Spaniels that were latter reclassified into the KCS).

At any rate, I don't get what "Finest of the finest" has to do with breed standards. I'm not even sure what that has to do with Wagner, but this thread is about dogs, right?


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## JosefinaHW (Nov 21, 2015)

mountmccabe said:


> Those are drawings of dogs from 140 or more years ago. Modern breed standards have little to do with how dogs looked and/or breed standards - to the extent that they existed - from that long ago. And many modern breed standards aren't about being good dogs, but are actively unhealthy and encourage unhealthy breeding.
> 
> Here's one example of change: modern Newfies are quite a bit larger than those of 120 years ago. A description from a book from 1900 "Average weights, one hundred pounds for dogs and eighty-five pounds for bitches" describes dogs 50% smaller than those we see today. (See here for the source and more history of Newfies as smaller dogs than they are now).
> 
> ...


Dear MountMcCabe (and Everyone in this Thread), I had absolutely no intention of trying to derail this thread. I am very interested in Wagner's music.

I also apologize that I can barely contain myself when I see images of or references to those glorious, loving, playful, magnificent working dogs. I hoped I made myself clear by saying that I love all dogs no matter what. Period.

As to Wagner liking the finest of the fine. It was a compliment to him. It seems to me that he loved beauty in many different manifestations: music; scent; cloth; furniture; etc., etc.. And this love of beauty (and quite possibly his impulsivity--if in fact he was impulsive) got him into trouble with creditors, husbands, etc., etc..

P.S. Thank you for all this info re/ all these types of magnificent working dogs.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

What the heck? It isn't the first Wagner thread to go to the dogs.

Weia, waga, woof.


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## Granate (Jun 25, 2016)

WildThing said:


> It really just depends on the individual. You say this repetoire wasn't made for the beginner, yet for myself coming from a background of mostly pop music and with a strong interest in cinema and theatrical arts, I took to Wagner immediately and his music is largely what inspired me to explore classical music in general. Personally I found it much more difficult to learn to appreciate large scale, abstract, instrumental musical forms without lyrics.





lextune said:


> Very similar story:
> 
> I didn't meet my wife until I was almost 40 years old. She was/is a mathematician. She was also a music lover, but really only rock/pop/top40, she had never had very much exposure to classical.
> I am a classical pianist. As we got to know each other, she obviously got to hear a lot of the piano literature. Then when we moved in together she suddenly had hours of live piano music every day, ha! I took her to a few piano recitals, to the symphony, even a chamber recital once. But I never thought to try and share Wagner with her. It was too long. Too complicated. Just too daunting. Too much everything I assumed.
> ...





Woodduck said:


> I've never had any sympathy for the idea that some music is just "too difficult" or "too sophisticated" for classical music novices. That goes for opera too. Wagner's were not the first operas I heard, but their fascinating stories and powerful music captured my imagination immediately. That was over 50 years ago, and I've learned since that these works can grow with you, revealing layers of significance over time as you're ready to grasp them. The _Ring_ could actually be an ideal operatic experience for many young people, who might be drawn to the heroic, fairy-tale elements of its plot but then find themselves sufficiently captivated by the music to investigate the work's deeper meanings.


I'm not here for the sake of having the last word, but I wouldn't have gone further in the world of opera (not even half of Verdi) If I hadn't commited to read synopsis and watch performances with subtitles. I needed to know the words and the acting to understand the story properly. I'm currently invested in the main orchestral composers (like Sibelius) and I would have loved to research about him and listen to his recordings earlier. But I don't regret at all diving this much into Wagner as I do from time to time.

Also, I don't usually read fiction or watch films, but I can watch videos with subtitles, and I'd rather do that than staring at a bright phone screen with only text and waiting 30 seconds to hear Brangäne finish a single sentence!


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## Bourdon (Jan 4, 2019)

DavidA said:


> As I have said before, Wagner tends to do me on length but there are patches that are really fine music. If only he'd had some competition from a librettist as Verdi did things might have been better. Of course, to Wagner buffs everything is incomparable and he could do no wrong, but to those of us less convinced he might have done better if he'd have realised the old maxim 'less is more'.
> Having said that, a good place to start with Wagner is with excerpts from The Ring or the love duet in Tristan. I was playing the duet in the Kleiber version *and was amazed at the lightness Kleiber gets into the music - quite astonishing. And Price is a gloriously sung Isolde.*




That's also my experience.


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## NLAdriaan (Feb 6, 2019)

Couchie said:


> .....There's a lot of both music and thematic parallels between Wagner's Ring and movies like Lord of the Rings/Star Wars/Harry Potter/Game of Thrones (although "*Wagner did it first*").......


Well, Wagner did not make up his own stories, he mostly used existing storylines, shuffled them, changed them, added new things. I wonder if in his day there were censored discussions if Wagner had the right to 'kill' stories by changing them But even Tolkien based his Lord of the Rings on work of an existing author and George Lucas as well. Maybe, only J.K. Rowling entirely created Harry Potter from scratch?

What all of these stories have in common, is a maze like structure, endless, bizarre names for the main characters (apart from Harry) and almost guaranteed success.

What Wagner (in German pronounced as WAAgNER, sorry guys) of course sets apart, was writing excellent soundtracks to the endless words and name his kids and dogs after his main characters:lol:

To add to the unique experience of the 'Gesamtkunstwerk' during many, many long hours, it is also important to control the feeding of the audience. So, Wagner thought of this like no other composer and he invented a unique dish, which was only allowed to be cooked in Bayreuth. Cosima even refined the recipe after Wagners death. But after the IP rights seized, the Wagner family had to share this exquisite with the world. Especially in Italy it became very successful. To this day it is unclear who really invented it, but at least the Wagner family still holds on to its lawful right. Still for sale in a supermarket near you:









If it is too much for your guts, also your dog will love it!


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Reichstag aus LICHT said:


> Here are photos of Marke's and Russ's final resting places. Note the bones left for Russ; presumably Marke had already eaten his
> 
> View attachment 114237
> 
> ...


'Perhaps Wagner's kindness to animals was his compensation for the way he so delectably tortured the rest of us.' (Peter Conrad - 'Verdi and / or Wagner')


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## mountmccabe (May 1, 2013)

JosefinaHW said:


> Dear MountMcCabe (and Everyone in this Thread), I had absolutely no intention of trying to derail this thread. I am very interested in Wagner's music.
> 
> I also apologize that I can barely contain myself when I see images of or references to those glorious, loving, playful, magnificent working dogs. I hoped I made myself clear by saying that I love all dogs no matter what. Period.
> 
> ...


To be clear, I was not complaining about the side conversation about dogs! I pushed it further, and went further afield. I am very happy to talk about dogs. There are many threads about Wagner (and I've participated in most of them!); I am sure this one will continue despite some canine interference.

And you did make it clear that you love all dogs. I didn't mean to call that into question, and I'm sorry if I went too far.


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## mountmccabe (May 1, 2013)

And I've discussed similar things previously, but I am also someone who didn't quite get opera (despite having seen a few warhorses early) but kept at it because Wagner's music captivated me.

The operas I listened to were mostly 20th century works, but I had no chance to see them and just listening they never really pushed me to go further. There were a few earlier popular works (Wagner included) that I had listened to, but I wasn't at a place where just listening kept me interested enough to really be paying attention for several hours. Overtures, preludes, and orchestral excerpts, etc. were a different story, and here Wagner was king. (Rossini was in the court, as was Mozart).

At one point my local opera company put on _Der fliegende Holländer_, but I didn't manage to organize anyone else to go with me (and wasn't quite committed enough to go on my own). I can only imagine how things would be different if I had gone, or if I had seen something by Wagner earlier (rather than Verdi and Mozart). That local company did a Ring cycle the season _before_ I got into classical music.

And sure, not everyone new to opera would be hooked by Wagner. But that doesn't mean his operas won't hook anybody. I was taking the time to do nothing but sit and listen to Bruckner symphonies; getting me to an opera house to see Wagner would have blown my mind.


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## interestedin (Jan 10, 2016)

The pronunciation of V and W in German/English seems to be confusing for Germans too. Last year a friend told me that he was going to visit "Wank-ouver" in Canada :lol:


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## JosefinaHW (Nov 21, 2015)

mountmccabe said:


> To be clear, I was not complaining about the side conversation about dogs!


I found your post very interesting, MM. I imagine you all know this but the 2017 Bayreuth _Die Meistersinger_ had two newfies star ever-so-briefly. I would have posted a screenshot but they removed the video from YouTube.

Have any of you seen any Wagner opera productions that included newfies? Do they wander around the Bayreuth Wagner "Complex"?

P.S. I have to run. If anyone decides to answer and you don't think it belongs in this thread, plz put respond on Opera Chat or wherever you think appropriate. TY


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

NLAdriaan said:


> Well, Wagner did not make up his own stories, he mostly used existing storylines, shuffled them, changed them, added new things. I wonder if in his day there were censored discussions if Wagner had the right to 'kill' stories by changing them But even Tolkien based his Lord of the Rings on work of an existing author and George Lucas as well. Maybe, only J.K. Rowling entirely created Harry Potter from scratch?
> 
> What all of these stories have in common, is a maze like structure, endless, bizarre names for the main characters (apart from Harry) and almost guaranteed success.


Don't underestimate Wagner as an original storyteller. The mythical and literary sources for the _Ring_ present a hodgepodge of tales that required extreme selectivity, alteration and condensation to be made into a unified story. The main characters often bear little resemblance to their prototypes, and I would not characterize the tetralogy's structure as "maze-like." _Parsifal_ is even more original in theme and structure, as a reading of Gottfied von Eschenbach's "Parzival" and Chretien de Troyes' "Perceval" will show, and the extraordinary character of Kundry is entirely Wagner's own creation. _Parsifal_ is extremely concentrated dramatically, as far from maze-like as it could be. Wagner typically wastes no time, in this or other works, on irrelevant adventures; in _Tristan_ almost nothing actually happens, with the emotions of the characters completely dominating the action.

Add to the inventiveness and economy of these works the psychological and philosophical concepts they express, and it becomes apparent that Wagner was an original storyteller and dramatist who, as a creator of modern myths, really did "do it first."


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

DavidA said:


> 'Perhaps Wagner's kindness to animals was his compensation for the way he so delectably tortured the rest of us.' (Peter Conrad - 'Verdi and / or Wagner')


And who will compensate us for the way you so delectably torture the memory of Wagner?


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## StrangeHocusPocus (Mar 8, 2019)

Was Natalie Wood Jewish?


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

StrangeHocusPocus said:


> Was Natalie Wood Jewish?


Natalie Wood was born Natalia Nikolaevna Zakharenko in San Francisco, California, the daughter of Russian immigrant parents


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## NLAdriaan (Feb 6, 2019)

Woodduck said:


> Don't underestimate Wagner as an original storyteller. The mythical and literary sources for the _Ring_ present a hodgepodge of tales that required extreme selectivity, alteration and condensation to be made into a unified story. The main characters often bear little resemblance to their prototypes, and I would not characterize the tetralogy's structure as "maze-like." _Parsifal_ is even more original in theme and structure, as a reading of Gottfied von Eschenbach's "Parzival" and Chretien de Troyes' "Perceval" will show, and the extraordinary character of Kundry is entirely Wagner's own creation. _Parsifal_ is extremely concentrated dramatically, as far from maze-like as it could be. Wagner typically wastes no time, in this or other works, on irrelevant adventures; in _Tristan_ almost nothing actually happens, with the emotions of the characters completely dominating the action.
> 
> Add to the inventiveness and economy of these works the psychological and philosophical concepts they express, and it becomes apparent that Wagner was an original storyteller and dramatist who, as a creator of modern myths, really did "do it first."


Thx for this insightful post!

It sure required a huge effort to play around (in a positive meaning) with these old tales and to retell them, as Wagner did. But I still think that Wagner as a narrator doesn't reach the level of Wagner as a composer. The German tradition of storytelling and poetry has given us groundbreaking alternatives by the likes of Goethe, Morike and Eichendorff, all of which have been put to music to add even more artistic value to the words. Hugo Wolf in cooperation with one of these gentlemen, delivers far better economics then Wagner in transferring deep stories and emotions to us listeners: 2 musicians and 5 minutes max.

And how about Monteverdi as a first composer to truly transfer emotions through music, in L'Orfeo for instance.

But don't get me wrong. Wagner carries you into his story in an unprecedented manner. It could well be that the huge length and overwhelming musical forces leave no other option as to surrender to the relatively few words that are sung, words that merely highlight the music. Had Wagner used more words, no lead singer would survive it. All in all, economics do not directly come to mind when thinking about Wagner.


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## Eva Yojimbo (Jan 30, 2016)

Clouds Weep Snowflakes said:


> Anyone into his operas?


No. I'm pretty sure nobody's heard of the guy. Is he any relation to Robert Wagner?


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

NLAdriaan said:


> Thx for this insightful post!
> 
> It sure required a huge effort to play around (in a positive meaning) with these old tales and to retell them, as Wagner did. But I still think that *Wagner as a narrator doesn't reach the level of Wagner as a composer.* The German tradition of storytelling and poetry has given us groundbreaking alternatives by the likes of Goethe, Morike and Eichendorff, all of which have been put to music to add even more artistic value to the words. *Hugo Wolf in cooperation with one of these gentlemen, delivers far better economics then Wagner in transferring deep stories and emotions to us listeners: 2 musicians and 5 minutes max.
> *
> ...


Opera and song are very different mediums, so I see no point in comparing Wagner with Hugo Wolf and Goethe. What opera composer or librettist is ever subjected to such comparisons? There's no doubt that Wagner as a composer is superior to Wagner as a poet, but that isn't intrinsically any sort problem, since an opera libretto is not primarily a literary product but a vehicle for musical expression. Purely literary value is nice (when we can notice it at all, which more often than not we can't and shouldn't), but good composers know that their art is what gives an opera its pace and power and that the words should be tailored to maximize the music's dramatic potential. I would note that different styles of dramatic music deal with this issue in different ways. in 18th-century opera, for example, the use of recitative to carry the action allows for a greater density of purely verbal expression and the presence of literary values approaching that of spoken drama; Mozart could set the clever, chatty librettos of Da Ponte in rapid-fire recitative, but librettos of that sort would have been of no use to Wagner.

It's been my observation that some recent opera composers have failed miserably to find the proper balance between words and music, and nothing is more awkward than a clueless composer presuming to set verbatim excessively talky or flowery texts which won't allow music its own prerogatives.

When you say that "it could well be that the huge length and overwhelming musical forces leave no other option as to surrender to the relatively few words that are sung, words that merely highlight the music," I say that that's just as it should be.


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

*Wagner's influence on literature and philosophy is significant. Millington has commented:*
[Wagner's] protean abundance meant that he could inspire the use of literary motif in many a novel employing interior monologue; ... the Symbolists saw him as a mystic hierophant; the Decadents found many a frisson in his work.[215]

Friedrich Nietzsche was a member of Wagner's inner circle during the early 1870s, and his first published work, The Birth of Tragedy, proposed Wagner's music as the Dionysian "rebirth" of European culture in opposition to Apollonian rationalist "decadence". Nietzsche broke with Wagner following the first Bayreuth Festival, believing that Wagner's final phase represented a pandering to Christian pieties and a surrender to the new German Reich. Nietzsche expressed his displeasure with the later Wagner in "The Case of Wagner" and "Nietzsche contra Wagner".[216]

*The poets Charles Baudelaire, Stéphane Mallarmé and Paul Verlaine worshipped Wagner.[217] Édouard Dujardin, whose influential novel Les Lauriers sont coupés is in the form of an interior monologue inspired by Wagnerian music, founded a journal dedicated to Wagner, La Revue Wagnérienne, to which J. K. Huysmans and Téodor de Wyzewa contributed.[218] In a list of major cultural figures influenced by Wagner, Bryan Magee includes D. H. Lawrence, Aubrey Beardsley, Romain Rolland, Gérard de Nerval, Pierre-Auguste Renoir, Rainer Maria Rilke and numerous others.[219] *

Unveiling of the Richard Wagner Monument in the Tiergarten, Berlin (1908); painting by Anton von Werner
*In the 20th century, W. H. Auden once called Wagner "perhaps the greatest genius that ever lived",[220] while Thomas Mann[216] and Marcel Proust[221] were heavily influenced by him and discussed Wagner in their novels. He is also discussed in some of the works of James Joyce.[222] Wagnerian themes inhabit T. S. Eliot's The Waste Land, which contains lines from Tristan und Isolde and Götterdämmerung, and Verlaine's poem on Parsifal.[223] *Many of Wagner's concepts, including his speculation about dreams, predated their investigation by Sigmund Freud.[224] Wagner had publicly analysed the Oedipus myth before Freud was born in terms of its psychological significance, insisting that incestuous desires are natural and normal, and perceptively exhibiting the relationship between sexuality and anxiety.[225] *Georg Groddeck considered the Ring as the first manual of psychoanalysis.*[226]

All this and the music too!
The man's genius is colossal !!


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## JosefinaHW (Nov 21, 2015)

Itullian said:


> Wagner had publicly analysed the Oedipus myth before Freud was born in terms of its psychological significance, insisting that incestuous desires are natural and normal, and perceptively exhibiting the relationship between sexuality and anxiety./QUOTE]
> 
> I suppose "publicly analyzed" might be the difference with what I am thinking, but I have now read many times here on TC that Wagner was the first to discover the subconscious and the Oedipus Complex. I don't intend to minimize Wagner's greatness, but it seems to me that those ancient Greek classics were so moving to the Greek men and have lived through to this day, because humans recognized the deeper meanings of those texts. I did specifically say "men" as the original audience; it's they who would/could relate to the Oedipus complex.
> 
> Whatever the subconscious turns out to be neurologically; if we discover it's a branching of a neuronal path or whatever, I cannot imagine that people throughout time have not experienced the subconscious and probably written about it in diaries if not published texts that I can't recall or didn't read.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

NLAdriaan said:


> Thx for this insightful post!
> 
> It sure required a huge effort to play around (in a positive meaning) with these old tales and to retell them, as Wagner did. But I still think that *Wagner as a narrator doesn't reach the level of Wagner as a composer. *The German tradition of storytelling and poetry has given us groundbreaking alternatives by the likes of Goethe, Morike and Eichendorff, all of which have been put to music to add even more artistic value to the words. Hugo Wolf in cooperation with one of these gentlemen, delivers far better economics then Wagner in transferring deep stories and emotions to us listeners: 2 musicians and 5 minutes max.
> 
> ...


First agreed that Wagner was a far greater musician than he was a librettist.

Second if Wagner had have used less words I believe the operas would be greater dramas than they are. The effect of length is to stultify the drama. Verdi saw this when he edited Don Carlo. He cut much superb music but he realised that the purpose of opera is primarily entertainment not endurance.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

JosefinaHW said:


> Itullian said:
> 
> 
> > Wagner had publicly analysed the Oedipus myth before Freud was born in terms of its psychological significance, insisting that incestuous desires are natural and normal, and perceptively exhibiting the relationship between sexuality and anxiety./QUOTE]
> ...


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## JosefinaHW (Nov 21, 2015)

DavidA said:


> JosefinaHW said:
> 
> 
> > I have grave doubts about the so-called Oedipus complex and the ridiculous extrapolations Freud read into it.
> ...


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

JosefinaHW said:


> DavidA said:
> 
> 
> > That's the man reason I specifically said Greek "men". I suppose I should have said Athenian men--anyway..... I have never met anyone who has admitted they experienced the desire to kill the father or that they lusted after their mother; and the men I asked were either in the psych field, or people that I knew who were self-introspective.
> ...


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## JosefinaHW (Nov 21, 2015)

DavidA said:


> JosefinaHW said:
> 
> 
> > Yes Wagner obviously had huge problems as he didn't actually know who is father really was. The thing is shrouded in doubt. One thing Freud did explore was the subconscious. He obviously went too far in his theories and was quite wrong in some of them, but today we are finding just how damaging attachment problems can be. Wagner obviously had them.
> ...


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## Zofia (Jan 24, 2019)

Clouds Weep Snowflakes said:


> Anyone into his operas? I think he was very talented, and the fact he was quite an anti-Semite and inspiration to Hitler and his operas are not conducted publicly in Israel because of that (though thankfully selling them for private use is perfectly legal) doesn't diminish the talent he had; Theodor Herzl himself admired Wagner's operas!
> I own these on CDs:
> 
> Parsifal
> ...


Wagner is the GOAT.


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## JosefinaHW (Nov 21, 2015)

I can't pull out 132 studies that say that neuroses to the point of pathology or other types of "diseases" of the mind aren't frequently found in great artists, but I do think there is very often a connection. With work I think many people can learn to dance with their disability and create something great with it. Because Wagner was plagued by who is father was doesn't discredit his work in anyway. He might have used that ENERGY, channeled it in conjunction with his compositional and literary knowledge. I listen to his works and I hear PASSION/ENERGY. What were its sources?......


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

JosefinaHW said:


> DavidA said:
> 
> 
> > David, I was not stating, implying, or even subconsciously thinking (I think  ) that Wagner had psychological issues/neuroses.... I don't want to turn this into a "Let's trash Wagner" thread.
> ...


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

JosefinaHW said:


> I can't pull out 132 studies that say that neuroses to the point of pathology or other types of "diseases" of the mind aren't frequently found in great artists, but I do think there is very often a connection. With work I think many people can learn to dance with their disability and create something great with it. *Because Wagner was plagued by who is father was doesn't discredit his work in anyway. * He might have used that ENERGY, channeled it in conjunction with his compositional and literary knowledge. I listen to his works and I hear PASSION/ENERGY. What were its sources?......


Of course it doesn't discredit his work but it explains a lot. His almost pathological need for praise for example.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

DavidA said:


> Of course it doesn't discredit his work but it explains a lot. His almost pathological need for praise for example.


It does nothing of the sort. Wagner had a good relationship with Ludwig Geyer, whether Geyer was his stepfather or his biological father, and he went on to have a good relationship with his own son Siegfried, who adored him.

Wagner seems an irresistible target for some, but amateur psychologizing of historical figures is a fool's errand.


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## JosefinaHW (Nov 21, 2015)

DavidA said:


> JosefinaHW said:
> 
> 
> > No question in my mind that Wagner had BPD. Anyone having that degree of megalomania if an obvious case. Of course he wasn't the only composer to have this sort of problem.
> ...


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## JosefinaHW (Nov 21, 2015)

I just read it. SIGH.


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## JosefinaHW (Nov 21, 2015)

JoeSaunders said:


> Yeah he's pretty good, wrote some banging tunes. But most importantly, he once owned a Newfoundland dog called Robber, who escorted Wagner on the stormy voyage to London which supposedly inspired his _Flying Dutchman_. He was a very good boy, and didn't alert any border guards to the Wagner's illegal border-hopping by barking. Sadly he ran away once Wagner made it to Paris


Gorgeous!!!! Now, I'm glad I scrolled back.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

JosefinaHW said:


> DavidA said:
> 
> 
> > *Megalomania is not one of the defining traits of BPD, David*. And there is a thread on here discussing whether Wagner had BPD.
> ...


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## JosefinaHW (Nov 21, 2015)

DavidA said:


> JosefinaHW said:
> 
> 
> > Depends who you read and what your definitions are. But I accept your point this is not the place to discuss it. It doesn't detract from the genius of the music, of course, but it may have effected just how that genius was worked out. A bit like Bobby Fischer and his chess! But we'll leave it there!
> ...


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## JosefinaHW (Nov 21, 2015)

Woodduck said:


> It does nothing of the sort. Wagner had a good relationship with Ludwig Geyer, whether Geyer was his stepfather or his biological father, and he went on to have a good relationship with his own son Siegfried, who adored him.
> 
> Wagner seems an irresistible target for some, but *amateur psychologizing of historical figures is a fool's errand*.


Woodduck, I believe I understand what you are saying here or the reasons for it, but I do think it is fascinating to think about what influenced the creation of an artist's works. Sometimes you can start with a painting and go in reverse. As long as we are not writing journal articles or standing before a classroom stating our speculations as facts, there is no harm. (I get it with Wagner and this forum, though. SIGH)

It also makes my interaction with a piece of art more personal and meaningful. In a not so small way, I "communicate" with the artist in a deeper way. "Yeah, I get it. And I smile." If you know what I mean.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

JosefinaHW said:


> Woodduck, I believe I understand what you are saying here or the reasons for it, but I do think it is fascinating to think about what influenced the creation of an artist's works. Sometimes you can start with a painting and go in reverse. As long as we are not writing journal articles or standing before a classroom stating our speculations as facts, there is no harm. (I get it with Wagner and this forum, though. SIGH)
> 
> It also makes my interaction with a piece of art more personal and meaningful. In a not so small way, I "communicate" with the artist in a deeper way. "Yeah, I get it. And I smile." If you know what I mean.


Sure. I suspect few of us can resist wanting to feel closer to artists whose work we enjoy, and speculating about their personalities doesn't hurt. Sometimes, alas, the motives for amateur diagnosis are not so benign. Wagner is, of all composers, the greatest temptation for moralistic exhibitionism disguised as analysis and scholarship. Of course, he was guilty of that himself!


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## JosefinaHW (Nov 21, 2015)

Woodduck said:


> Sure. I suspect few of us can resist wanting to feel closer to artists whose work we enjoy, and speculating about their personalities doesn't hurt. Sometimes, alas, the motives for amateur diagnosis are not so benign. *Wagner is, of all composers, the greatest temptation* for moralistic exhibitionism disguised as analysis and scholarship. Of course, he was guilty of that himself!


I've been here on TC long enough to see that re/ Wagner and I think it is unfortunate. But I am glad to hear that you agree that that amateur psychologyzing and personality speculation is a natural thing to do with art.


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## JosefinaHW (Nov 21, 2015)

Woodduck said:


> Sure. I suspect few of us can resist wanting to feel closer to artists whose work we enjoy, and speculating about their personalities doesn't hurt. Sometimes, alas, the motives for amateur diagnosis are not so benign. Wagner is, of all composers, the greatest temptation for moralistic exhibitionism disguised as analysis and scholarship. Of course, he was guilty of that himself!


I'd be interested to hear your opinion about Wagner being given credit for being the first analyst of the subconscious, et cetera. The quotes Itulian included and my response. (Again, I am not trying to minimize Wagner's achievements; let's just be fair about this.)


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

JosefinaHW said:


> I'd be interested to hear your opinion about Wagner being given credit for being the first analyst of the subconscious, et cetera. The quotes Itulian included and my response. (Again, I am not trying to minimize Wagner's achievements; let's just be fair about this.)


Honestly, I don't know what the state of psychology as a field of study was in Wagner's day, or what thinkers may have been anticipating the theories of Freud and Jung. I know only that as an artist, specifically as a composer and dramatist, Wagner was intent on bringing to the awareness of his audiences, by means of music and the symbolism of myth and legend, states of feeling and ideas about the subjective life which he felt civilization had tried to repress or invalidate, and which it was essential to his own personal growth to express.

The most obvious area of human experience with which he dealt as an artist was that of sexuality, and his preoccupation with it in his works was both a personal predilection and a response to the mores of his culture. Whatever else they are (and they are a good deal else) his operas are a chronicle, over the course of his career, of an evolving exploration of the place of erotic love in the life of the individual and of society. His approach, in terms of opera, was unconventional and, for many, uncomfortable. For example, he certainly did anticipate the psychoanalytic identification of the Oedipus complex: the first manifestation of it is probably Siegfried's calling out to his dead mother when he's confronted with the sleeping Brunnhilde, the first woman he has ever seen. Why does he do this? It may be simply that Siegfried has never seen his mother, who died giving birth to him, and makes the only association he can when finally confronted by a woman. But then, in _Parsifal,_ we are presented with the disturbing scene of Kundry coming to the young man (in so many ways a reincarnation of Siegfried), telling him the story of the mother he left behind, relating her death from grief over his departure, and offering him what she calls "a last token of a mother's blessing, the first kiss of love." The music for this seductress/mother/witch's spiritual death-lure is every bit as tender, as lulling, as sensual, and as chromatically creepy as we could ask for, and it's like no music any opera composer had ever felt the need to write. We should feel something not quite right in the pit of our stomach as we hear it. Fortunately for Parsifal, he is able to resist the temptation to regress to mewling infancy in Kundry's arms, he remembers the wounded Amfortas, he is filled with a compassion which overpowers the urges of his young body, and he goes forth on the arduous journey of becoming a man capable of redeeming the order of the Grail whose king suffers the agonizing consequences of having been weak where Parsifal was strong.

Parsifal's symbolic story recounts not only the liberation of a boy from the "Oedipal stage" - the temptation to remain "mama's boy" - but his subsequent maturation through life's trials both physical and emotional (which are not shown on stage but are powerfully depicted in the third-act prelude). His development may be said to illustrate the process Jung called "individuation," the process by which (quoting Wiki here) "innate elements of personality, the components of the immature psyche, and the experiences of the person's life become, if the process is more or less successful, integrated over time into a well-functioning whole." In a sense all of Wagner's mature operas represent psychological journeys, but _Parsifal_ - his long-projected final work and testament - is the first one (if we except his comedy, _Meistersinger_) in which the journey ends in unambiguous fulfillment. Most of the operas finish with some kind of musical "benediction," expressing either a promise or a vision of bliss, no matter how tragic or catastrophic the actual events of their stories. But from the vantage point of the final, serene pages of this strange, valedictory tale of spiritual death and transfiguration we can see what Wagner has been striving for heroically in work after work, delving into the often hidden corners of the psyche in the search for for that insight into reality which would bring him peace. Wagner may not have been a psychologist, but there is no precedent in opera for his plunges beneath the surface of the mind, plunges which took the inhabitants of his mythical worlds into the darkest waters of fear, hatred, greed, insatiable longing, even the longing for death as the only possible fulfillment of love in a pitiless world. The man seems to have lived his life in close communion with the kingdom of dreams, existing in a state of intense, oversensitive domination by his own creative demons. But in those unfathomable acts of creative imagination which amazed no one more than him, he could clothe his dreams in music of a sensuous power capable of lifting the lid of Pandora's box in his time, and still able to stir up strange dreams in us today.


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## JosefinaHW (Nov 21, 2015)

Much to think about in quiet and in listening to his music, thank you. 

A few immediate impressions or thoughts.

1. The extraordinarily intense emphasis on erotic love. I can get that given what I understand of the culture of his time. But the power and depth of his music for me touches something much more profound.

2. A "pitiless world": Yes, I understand that Wagner was influenced by Schopenhauer's ideas, but his music--to my ears-- is too vibrant, too alive for him to REALLY have believed/assimilated into his being such a negative, life-negating philosophy. Not only that, but so many people were incredibly tolerant and generous to Wagner. For all the bitching and cursing that people supposedly directed at him (at least as I've read here on TC) they must have been won over ultimately by his charisma, his love of beauty and life. I read that he loved to play--which is why he loved children (and I think dogs). Maybe he had mood swings (?) but his life does not seem to be predominantly one of major depression and nihilism.

That's primarily it for the moment. I hesitate to bring up one more thing because I try to focus on the commonalities of all life. But the heavy emphasis you mention again re/ the erotic, the mother figure seems to me to be too male. Would his music appeal to so many women (does it appeal to many women??? I don't know) if this was one of the primary elements in his operas, but you did say his operas were much more...... thinking out loud.

Thank you.


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## JosefinaHW (Nov 21, 2015)

Another thing in light of watching and listening to _Das Rheingold_. In terms of visuals I am referring to the Met Performance with Christa Ludwig and James Morris. It really irritated me when Alberich is watching and then interacting with the Rhein madens that the world love was used in the subtitles and my libretto_--_I can't find the thing right now but it's the famous one with the glossy white background and some red on the cover--but it was "sort of" lust the "somewhat" seemed to be motivated Alberich. There was something deeper there to me, contrary to either the words love or lust. Alberich was intensely angry to the depth of his being, something much more profound then lust. Maybe that's the key. The word lust I being used but maybe the reality is that he's longing for real love which in German has a different word.

Am I right about this or at least the irritation over some disconnect?


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

JosefinaHW said:


> Much to think about in quiet and in listening to his music, thank you.
> 
> A few immediate impressions or thoughts.
> 
> ...


Male and highly sexed - yup, that's Wagner! His struggling, striving heroes are men. He was, in life, very sympathetic to women, and I get the impression that he treated Cosima and Mathlde Wesendonck as equals (I don't know about Minna, but they were young and never a good match). Some of his female characters have plenty of strength to stand up to men and forge their own destinies: Isolde, Brunnhilde, Elisabeth, Fricka... But the male point of view does predominate. The young Wagner imagined the love of women as redemptive to men - that "eternal feminine leads us on" thing - and his works up to and including _Tristan_ are variations on this theme. By the time we get to _Parsifal_ the redeeming woman theme has revealed its deadly underbelly in our hero's Oedipal crisis, and the image of the feminine has fractured into contradictory pieces, with the all-nurturing mother Grail on the one hand and the devouring mother seductress on the other.

Do we detect mother issues here? :lol:


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## JosefinaHW (Nov 21, 2015)

Woodduck said:


> Male and highly sexed - yup, that's Wagner! His struggling, striving heroes are men. He was, in life, very sympathetic to women, and I get the impression that he treated Cosima and Mathlde Wesendonck as equals (I don't know about Minna, but they were young and never a good match). Some of his female characters have plenty of strength to stand up to men and forge their own destinies: Isolde, Brunnhilde, Elisabeth, Fricka... But the male point of view does predominate. The young Wagner imagined the love of women as redemptive to men - that "eternal feminine leads us on" thing - and his works up to and including _Tristan_ are variations on this theme. By the time we get to _Parsifal_ the redeeming woman theme has revealed its deadly underbelly in our hero's Oedipal crisis, and the image of the feminine has fractured into contradictory pieces, with the all-nurturing mother Grail on the one hand and the devouring mother seductress on the other.
> 
> Do we detect mother issues here? :lol:


You laugh but it seems to be the case the way you put it re/ Parsifal. This just gets more contradictory and confusing by the minute!

P.S. What about the discongruity with the opening scene of Das Rheingold? Has anyone else ever mentioned feeling this?


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

JosefinaHW said:


> You laugh but it seems to be the case the way you put it re/ Parsifal. This just gets more contradictory and confusing by the minute!
> 
> P.S. What about the discongruity with the opening scene of Das Rheingold? Has anyone else ever mentioned feeling this?


Not following you...


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## JosefinaHW (Nov 21, 2015)

If by not following you, you mean:

1. If in Parsifal Wagner is struggling with the feminine as the redemption of the male (empathetic, compassionate, agapic love, need to consider the other not just the self) vs. the view of the female as a sex object, that is a different struggle than just the erotic. 

Maybe this dual drive: female as erotic vs. female as agapic love IS the tension/discongruity I was experiencing in the first scene of Das Rheingold. Alberic is NO WAY completely driven lust. He is also (primarily) driven for acceptance and love. So he says love and lust at different times. Those warped Rhein maidens ARE only saying lust. There is major emotional and cognitive discontinuity in that scene.

Also, in that libretto that I can't find, there are two expressions that I remember being used at the same time: woman and woman's worth? something like that. I couldn't figure out what the hell Wagner was saying or if the translation in the libretto was wrong. So "woman" is the erotic aspect and "woman's worth" is the redeeming/HUMANIZING aspect.

Am I making sense or should I switch from ice water to something stronger? or just go to bed?


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

JosefinaHW said:


> If by not following you, you mean:
> 
> 1. If in Parsifal Wagner is struggling with the feminine as the redemption of the male (empathetic, compassionate, agapic love, need to consider the other not just the self) vs. the view of the female as a sex object, that is a different struggle than just the erotic.
> 
> ...


Bed might be best for now. It's getting late here and I doubt my brain is up to more of this.


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## JosefinaHW (Nov 21, 2015)

I just read about Lulu.

I have put on Benjamin Bernheim and Gerald Finley performing Puccini's _Messa di Gloria_.

Very interesting discussions. Thank you to all.


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## marceliotstein (Feb 23, 2019)

I caught Das Rheingold at the Met on Thursday night. I've been to dozens of operas there but this is my first-ever Wagner. I arrived with some skepticism and at best a mixed level of enthusiasm, and I just wanted to share my impressions here.

Wait for it ...... 

I LOVED IT. Blew away and exceeded my expectations. This seems bizarre to say and yet is somehow true: despite studying up in advance, watching performances and videos, reading the libretto, etc. etc. as I always do, I really did not understand what the Ring Cycle was until I saw it with my own eyes. Despite the famously heavy handed stage machinery the Met uses for this production, what burst forth for me was the story, the characters, and a surprisingly clear plotline. The focus of this production was entirely on the foolish Wotan, and I was able to see for the first time the unity in this story. In fact, I think the staging was very effective, because other than the one big machine on stage, the stage business was simple and minimalist, with few props and few places for performers to hide. The singers really delivered, and I have to say that the audience leaving the theater seemed more "pumped" than any Met audience I've ever seen. We knew we had seen something special. I was originally planning to only go to one more of the four Ring operas playing between now and the end of the Met season. Now I'm going to go to all of them.


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## lextune (Nov 25, 2016)

NLAdriaan said:


> It sure required a huge effort to play around (in a positive meaning) with these old tales and to retell them, as Wagner did. But I still think that Wagner as a narrator doesn't reach the level of Wagner as a composer. The German tradition of storytelling and poetry has given us groundbreaking alternatives by the likes of Goethe, Morike and Eichendorff


No less than Thomas Mann said, "it has always seemed to me absurd to question Wagner's poetic gifts"

Wagner's poetry (he was not writing libretti) is the work of a true Master. To say that his writing does not reach the level of his music is just not correct. That is, of course, my opinion. But in point of fact it is intellectually dishonest to think poorly of Wagner's literary talents unless one speaks German, (or has at least made the appropriate efforts in English; I will explain)...

First off, Wagner was, without exaggeration, one of the most well-read men in history. He read enormously. For pleasure, for learning, for inspiration. Volume after volume, collection after collection, he exhausted every library he could. He read about everything; Music, poetry, history, folklore, biographies, philosophy, from ancient texts, to new releases, on and on and on. From these vast reserve of sources he crafted his poems, and in the specific case of The Ring, he blended various forms of Old High German, Middle High German, and standard modern German, to create a specifically developed type "Stabreim", an ancient, highly alliterative type of rhyming Germanic poem.

The wit, and often astounding turns, and/or insights, of his alliterative phrases are poetry of the highest order. It is difficult, (but not impossible) to grasp his poetry without a knowledge of German. The only English translation that even attempts to preserve Wagner's poetic flavor is Stewart Spencer's from 1993, (I highly recommend it). 
Any 'literal' translation, which is the only type most people ever read, from High/Middle/Standard/WagnerianCombo German to English will lose any and all semblance of its poetic construction, (is this a surprise to anyone?), and we get things like "go and bite your own bottom, son of a silly person!" 
Spencer's understanding of the idiomatic nature of Wagner's poetry, and Spencer's own brilliance and scholarship, reveal the true artistry of Wagner's literary and poetic gifts to the native English speaker.

Spencer's English translation is also the only that follows Wagner's verse form exactly, and as such it could not be sung with the music, but this preserves Wagner's poetic structures. Put on your favorite recording of the Ring, sit with Spencer's translation in your lap, and be transformed...

....Andrew Porter's singable English translation is all-together different kettle of fish, that I don't have time to get too deep into right now, but it is almost as much a musical work as it is a poetic translation.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

lextune said:


> No less than Thomas Mann said, "it has always seemed to me absurd to question Wagner's poetic gifts"
> 
> Wagner's poetry (he was not writing libretti) is the work of a true Master. To say that his writing does not reach the level of his music is just not correct. That is, of course, my opinion. But in point of fact it is intellectually dishonest to think poorly of Wagner's literary talents unless one speaks German, (or has at least made the appropriate efforts in English; I will explain)...
> 
> ...


Thanks much for this. We non-speakers of German are indeed in no position to talk knowledgeably about Wagner's literary skills. I do know that he was able to vary his style of poetic diction to suit the different worlds represented in his operas, much as he was able to create a distinct musical atmosphere for each of them. I can see and feel the archaic, heroic effect of the alliterative _Stabreim_ in the Ring, and observe the use of rhymed verse in _Meistersinger,_ but that's about where my comprehension ends.


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## JosefinaHW (Nov 21, 2015)

lextune said:


> No less than Thomas Mann said, "it has always seemed to me absurd to question Wagner's poetic gifts"
> 
> Wagner's poetry (he was not writing libretti) is the work of a true Master. To say that his writing does not reach the level of his music is just not correct. That is, of course, my opinion. But in point of fact it is intellectually dishonest to think poorly of Wagner's literary talents unless one speaks German, (or has at least made the appropriate efforts in English; I will explain)...
> 
> ...


Lextune, In my libretto to _Das Rheingold_ (Stewart Spencer and Barry Millington)

Act One, Scene Two, Between [8e and 7} Fricka sings "love and womanhood's worth?/ Liebe und Weibes Werth?

1. What is meant by "women's worth"?

2. In German or in the way Wagner writes for_ Das Rheingold_ particularly in Scene One, what are the German verbs for the various types of love? eros/agape/storge/philia? Which of these (if not more) does Wagner use in Das Rheingold and all his operas?

Thank you.


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## lextune (Nov 25, 2016)

Spencer's own note says it more succinctly than I ever could:

"It is not clear whether Wagner draws a semantic distinction between Liebe and Minne, both of which mean 'love'. During the classical MHG period (1050-1400) Minne was the standard word for love in all its multiplicity of meanings. From the fifteenth century onwards, it assumed more obviously sexual connotations but, under the influence of the early 19-century Romantics, came to assume increasingly ethical overtones. There is some suggestion within the context of the Ring, that Minne is more overtly sexual than Liebe."

Personally I think Minne is clearly the more sexual. And it is (almost?) always Liebe when talking about what must be forsworn and/or accursed, to obtain the Ring's power....

...So, agape/liebe and eros/minne.

Except of course if/when Wagner wants to contradict himself... It is a poetic art after all! 

In any event it is 1:15 am here, and I really should be in bed. Good night TC.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

JosefinaHW said:


> If in Parsifal Wagner is struggling with the feminine as the redemption of the male (empathetic, compassionate, agapic love, need to consider the other not just the self) vs. the view of the female as a sex object, that is a different struggle than just the erotic.
> 
> Maybe this dual drive: female as erotic vs. female as agapic love IS the tension/discongruity I was experiencing in the first scene of Das Rheingold. Alberic is NO WAY completely driven lust. He is also (primarily) driven for acceptance and love. So he says love and lust at different times. Those warped Rhein maidens ARE only saying lust. There is major emotional and cognitive discontinuity in that scene.


You're asking what the meaning of "love" is in Wagner, and in the _Ring_ in particular. It's a fantastic question; it's probably _the_ question whose answer will take us nearest to the heart of the composer and his work. I'm not sure I can answer it satisfactorily, but let's see what happens if I try.

Opera, from _L'Orfeo_ to _Lulu,_ has always been preeminently about love, usually sexual love but often friendship and familial love as well. No surprise there; love is what people care about most, and music and song seem ideally suited to express the feelings associated with it. Wagner's operas, though, are almost unique in the intensity of their focus, not merely on the state or act, but on the _meaning,_ of love. In opera after opera Wagner presents us with characters for whom love is a problem, the crucial problem of their lives whose solution must be found in a world in which love is always in danger of being blocked, warped or crushed by powers hostile to it: powers of conventional morality, doubt, fear, hatred, envy, and greed.

Even outlining the meaning of love in the operas leading up to the _Ring_ would require a sizable essay. Let's just say that in the _Ring_ the concept of love is taken beyond its previous roles in the lives of pairs of characters - the Dutchman and Senta, Tannhauser and Elisabeth/Venus, Lohengrin and Elsa - and is made to represent a universal principle which includes erotic love but is not limited to it, and which evolves in the course of the drama. I will call that principle the force of union, which in the _Ring_ is set against the opposing force of alienation, manifested as hatred and the desire for power.

The _Ring,_ in my view, is fundamentally a story of human development, an allegory of the progress of the human soul - in its psychic and moral dimensions - from the dawn of self-consciousness to the fullness of self-command and self-transcendence. It begins at our universal human beginning, with the symbolization of our preconscious existence in the dark womb of the Rhine. The river's watery womb is the primal mother, and in it we find the carefree feminine spirits of nature, the Rhinedaughters (Wagner calls them "daughters," not "maidens"), who guard the Rhinegold, the stone which rests asleep, waiting for the right moment to open its gleaming eye. That moment comes with Alberich, a being born like us in darkness and slime, who when we meet him is unconscious of anything but a newborn creature's pre-conscious, pre-moral, clnging, grasping desire for union with the feminine. His desire, expressed in his lust for the Rhinedaughters, is our first glimpse of love in the _Ring:_ love in its most elementary, unaware, selfish, chldish form, but love nonetheless.

Already at this stage of the story we see that for Wagner, erotic love has implications beyond mere lust. Alberich embodies at first the perfect, innocent selfishness of the infant, and his desire for the embrace of woman - of a benign, all-accepting, all-forgiving nature - is the only form of love an infant can experience. But he is in for a shock: mother nature rejects him, laughs at him, pushes him away! This is not an act of cruelty; the Rhinedaughters are not moral beings capable of cruelty; all they know, all _nature_ knows, is play. But Alberich feels them to be cruel; he feels pain and rage when his need for union is frustrated - when, in essence he finds that he cannot remain an infant forever. And what happens at the moment he makes this terrible discovery?

The Rhinegold awakens! Self-consciousness, moral consciousness, the consciousness of a human being, is born.

Wagner, in this psychological creation myth, has made the profound observation that our humanity, our unique self-conscousness and capacity for conscious, moral choice, is born out of the pain of separation from nature, of alienation, of not getting what we want, of not feeling unconditionally loved. Denied the bliss of love, Alberich will now recognize, in the voices of the Rhinedaughters, the fundamental, fateful choice that confronts him.

(I will continue this tomorrow. It's late here and the Rhinegold and I need our shuteye.)


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## JosefinaHW (Nov 21, 2015)

Woodduck said:


> You're asking what the meaning of "love" is in Wagner, and in the _Ring_ in particular. It's a fantastic question; it's probably _the_ question whose answer will take us nearest to the heart of the composer and his work. I'm not sure I can answer it satisfactorily, but let's see what happens if I try.
> 
> Opera, from _L'Orfeo_ to _Lulu,_ has always been preeminently about love, usually sexual love but often friendship and familial love as well. No surprise there; love is what people care about most, and music and song seem ideally suited to express the feelings associated with it. Wagner's operas, though, are almost unique in the intensity of their focus, not merely on the state or act, but on the _meaning,_ of love. In opera after opera Wagner presents us with characters for whom love is a problem, the crucial problem of their lives whose solution must be found in a world in which love is always in danger of being blocked, warped or crushed by powers hostile to it: powers of conventional morality, doubt, fear, hatred, envy, and greed.
> 
> ...


This is extraordinary, Woodduck!!! I must print this out, re-read it several times and jot some thoughts down.


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## JosefinaHW (Nov 21, 2015)

Just as a few immediate things that I am sure I will refine as I let all this swirl around in my mind:

1. The concept/idea/thesis (don't know what to call it yet) that an exploration of the various forms/manifestations of love and the many things that block it resonates with my experience of Das Rheingold this week. It explains that irritation I experienced during the opening scene and sheds a great deal of light on the rest of the opera. As does the other idea/thesis that Wagner is exploring the course of human development. I knew there was something about Alberich that so different than some whining, spiteful, hateful little villian, especially when the singer performs it with the intensity of the Polish singer of Saturday's performance.

2. Those Rhein daughters. When I was searching for the Donnington book last night, I saw a review that said that we have to remember they are mermaids, which this person said symbolized innocent love along the lines you are saying. At first the reviewer confused me because I thought the meaning of "mermaid" was a prostitute--I saw that in one of the history of Britain series on PBS. Roman baths at Bath: I think it was Simon Schama's. 

I didn't like how they were taunting and mocking Alberich., but in light of what you are saying, kids play mean probably in this case without realizing they are being mean--they are too self-centered. Again, early stages of "human" development.

Lastly for now, all this just hits me with the immense power of Wagner's mind/his genius. 

Must go until later. Please keep drafting out your ideas!


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## JosefinaHW (Nov 21, 2015)

Wow. I'm surprised that no one else has joined the conversation! Itulian, Bonetan, wkasimer, etc.???

This is going to sound like a military operation, but I have decided to watch/listen to at least two more productions of The Ring Cycle before I come back here and respond at any length:

1. I am going to watch/listen to the entire Met Ring Cycle that begins w Christa Ludwig and James Morris.

2. Tomorrow arrives the Bayreuth John Tomlinson (released in 2011) box set of videos of the entire Ring. I am going to watch and listen to that complete set.

3. Let it all spin around in my mind a bit.

4. Then respond as a much more informed listener.

Does anyone know if there is a complete set or partial set of The Ring Cycle that uses that 24 row of planks that is being used in the current production at the Met? Did the Netherlands Opera release use it? If there is one recorded that has used it, I will watch at least part of that as well.

Best Wishes to All!


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

I'm trying to soak it all in 










This is the Lepage Ring Josefina, the one with the planks.


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## JosefinaHW (Nov 21, 2015)

Itullian said:


> I'm trying to soak it all in
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thank you very much, Itulian! Have you seen these videos? Wait a minute! I just looked closer at the cover. That is the production with Bryn Terfel that so many people think is terrible because Bryn Terfel's voice wasn't strong enough for the role! Well, I might watch it anyway in order to see what is going on with these planks. Fortunately I don't have to purchase that one just to watch it a first time: it's the other video of the cycle that is available on the Met On Demand.

At the rate I'm going it will be 3 months before I watch all these operas, but I am enjoying myself.


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

^^^They are available separately as well.


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

JosefinaHW said:


> Thank you very much, Itulian! Have you seen these videos? Wait a minute! I just looked closer at the cover. That is the production with Bryn Terfel that so many people think is terrible because Bryn Terfel's voice wasn't strong enough for the role! Well, I might watch it anyway in order to see what is going on with these planks. Fortunately I don't have to purchase that one just to watch it a first time: it's the other video of the cycle that is available on the Met On Demand.
> 
> At the rate I'm going it will be 3 months before I watch all these operas, but I am enjoying myself.


I thought Terfel was ok. He's not Hans Hotter, but who is?


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## JosefinaHW (Nov 21, 2015)

Itullian said:


> I thought Terfel was ok. He's not Hans Hotter, but who is?


Oh good, I like Terfel, too. Thanks, Itullian!


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## howlingfantods (Jul 27, 2015)

JosefinaHW said:


> Thank you very much, Itulian! Have you seen these videos? Wait a minute! I just looked closer at the cover. That is the production with Bryn Terfel that so many people think is terrible because Bryn Terfel's voice wasn't strong enough for the role! Well, I might watch it anyway in order to see what is going on with these planks. Fortunately I don't have to purchase that one just to watch it a first time: it's the other video of the cycle that is available on the Met On Demand.
> 
> At the rate I'm going it will be 3 months before I watch all these operas, but I am enjoying myself.


Terfel's not good here but he's significantly better than Voigt, who herself is significantly better than Jay Hunter Morris, a terrible piece of casting--not his fault since he was just the understudy but it baffles me that they put this out on video to commemorate such a poor set of performances.

But Kaufmann, Westbroek, Blythe and Owens deliver fine performances, but who buys a Ring for the Siegmund, Alberich, Sieglinde and Fricka?


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## kineno (Jan 24, 2015)

In those three leading roles, this year’s casts are more promising IMHO.


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## Bonetan (Dec 22, 2016)

kineno said:


> In those three leading roles, this year's casts are more promising IMHO.


By a significant margin imo...


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## JosefinaHW (Nov 21, 2015)

howlingfantods said:


> Terfel's not good here but he's significantly better than Voigt, who herself is significantly better than Jay Hunter Morris, a terrible piece of casting--not his fault since he was just the understudy but it baffles me that they put this out on video to commemorate such a poor set of performances.
> 
> But Kaufmann, Westbroek, Blythe and Owens deliver fine performances, but who buys a Ring for the Siegmund, Alberich, Sieglinde and Fricka?


Thanks for your input. I don't have to buy it to watch it. That entire cycle is on MetonDemand. And Alberich is VERY important to me. That Polish singer who is playing him now at the Met is amazing!


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## lextune (Nov 25, 2016)

This thread seems to have become a Wagnerian catchall, but since the Ring on DVD has come up, I will offer my opinion that the Barenboim Ring from '91 cannot be beat on video.


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## JosefinaHW (Nov 21, 2015)

lextune said:


> This thread seems to have become a Wagnerian catchall, but since the Ring on DVD has come up, I will offer my opinion that the Barenboim Ring from '91 cannot be beat on video.


Thank you, Lextune, that is the one I did purchase. 

Also, Sorry I didn't thank you sooner for replying about two different words for love and erotic love. I didn't even notice there was a footnote in the text--too caught up w too many things at once.

If you do ever come across an article that discusses the various types of love in Wagner's operas and the German terms Wagner uses for them in his operas, please let me know. Many Thanks


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## howlingfantods (Jul 27, 2015)

kineno said:


> In those three leading roles, this year's casts are more promising IMHO.


Yes, I'm very hopeful about this run and I hope it's also filmed and released. I'm also hoping they've revised some of the stage direction from the prior run to make the Machine a little less cutesy/gimmicky/dangerous for the cast. Some of what they did with it in the first run was startlingly effective and beautiful (e.g. Gunther washing his bloody hands after Hagen kills Siegfried), some of it was incredibly cheesy and distracting (the seesaw Walkurenritt was a very low point).


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

The reason I haven't cared to join in this thread is because I'm 70 and life is too short! I'd much rather listen while I still can and read the things I really need to read while I still can!

I'll let those of you with the enthusiasm and stamina to debate do exactly that. I'll sit back and observe from the safe distance of my couch!

Btw I'm watching the Lepage Götterdämmerung in bits at the moment and it is excellent. As was Rheingold, Walküre and Siegfried. Much better than I expected.


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## aussiebushman (Apr 21, 2018)

Barbebleu said:


> The reason I haven't cared to join in this thread is because I'm 70 and life is too short! I'd much rather listen while I still can and read the things I really need to read while I still can!
> 
> I'll let those of you with the enthusiasm and stamina to debate do exactly that. I'll sit back and observe from the safe distance of my couch!
> .


Still only a youngster eh? I'm 77 next week and can still manage to put a "bit of stick" about! I wish you many more years of listening

Alan


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

aussiebushman said:


> Still only a youngster eh? I'm 77 next week and can still manage to put a "bit of stick" about!


So -- there's snow on the roof but fire in the furnace!


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

aussiebushman said:


> Still only a youngster eh? I'm 77 next week and can still manage to put a "bit of stick" about! I wish you many more years of listening
> 
> Alan


I can still 'put a bit of stick about' when the mood takes me. Nowadays this bear needs to be poked quite hard before he pokes back!:lol:


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## JosefinaHW (Nov 21, 2015)

Itullian said:


> I thought Terfel was ok. He's not Hans Hotter, but who is?


I watched the LePlage _Das Rheingold_ (and part of the _Die Valkyrie_ last night and I think it is very enjoyable. It emphasizes some things the Schenk production did not (and vice versa).

In terms of our conversation re/ Wagner's exploration of love (in its many different forms) and human development, I found the Leplage production to very charmingly focus more strongly on the Fasolt/Freia relationship.

Nothing wrong with eros in my opinion but there was so much tenderness and so much more predominating than eros there. Selig is a wonderful singer and actor! And although I didn't like Freia's voice as much as the singer in the Schenk, she also conveyed some of her tenderness and charming, just-discovered realization that Fasolt is a warm-hearted, interesting, "complex" being. It was heart-breaking but also worth the watch of that entire production of _Das Rheingold! _


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## NightHawk (Nov 3, 2011)

I own and listen to a lot of Wagner - both studio and live (Bayreuth) recordings. I have one suggestion for the new-Wagner listener: go with a reputable and fairly recent studio recording so you can hear the incredible riches of the orchestra in good balance with the voices. Older Bayreuth recordings, numerous of which I own and cherish, can really distance the orchestra from one's overall perception of the works. 

Addendum: when I started my Wagner Quest I read the synopsis of each act before I began to immerse myself in the full librettos years later. If you love the music (vocal + instrumental) you'll find your way into the warp and woof of the 'Big Ten' with increasing returns. Regarding The Ring Cycle, specifically, I recommend Stewart Spencer and Barry Millington's excellent German/English side-by-side translation of the complete Ring cycle. ISBN 978-0-500-28194-9


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## Agamenon (Apr 22, 2019)

Welcome to the super galaxy called WAGNER!


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

I just thought to join the Wagner group here at TC and was surprised to see that it apparently is closed down. No activity since 2015 and nowhere to sign up. What gives?

https://www.talkclassical.com/groups/tc-wagner-society.html


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Fritz Kobus said:


> I just thought to join the Wagner group here at TC and was surprised to see that it apparently is closed down. No activity since 2015 and nowhere to sign up. What gives?
> 
> https://www.talkclassical.com/groups/tc-wagner-society.html


My guess is that there's so much Wagner discussion on the main forum that no one feels the need for secret midnight meetings in the forest.


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## txtrnl341 (Jan 21, 2020)

Sadly I lost my entire collection of Wagner recordings, 50 years worth, in a flood in 2005. It was a tremendous loss and I've not the heart or energy to replace even if it were possible. Now I must content myself with DVDs and CDs, but count Youtube a blessing.


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## haydnguy (Oct 13, 2008)

NightHawk said:


> Addendum: when I started my Wagner Quest I read the synopsis of each act before I began to immerse myself in the full librettos years later. If you love the music (vocal + instrumental) you'll find your way into the warp and woof of the '*Big Ten*' with increasing returns. Regarding The Ring Cycle, specifically, I recommend Stewart Spencer and Barry Millington's excellent German/English side-by-side translation of the complete Ring cycle. ISBN 978-0-500-28194-9


Could NightHawk or anyone else enlighten me as to what works the 'Big Ten' might be referring to?


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## Rogerx (Apr 27, 2018)

txtrnl341 said:


> Sadly I lost my entire collection of Wagner recordings, 50 years worth, in a flood in 2005. It was a tremendous loss and I've not the heart or energy to replace even if it were possible. Now I must content myself with DVDs and CDs, but count Youtube a blessing.


No insurance claim?


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

haydnguy said:


> Could NightHawk or anyone else enlighten me as to what works the 'Big Ten' might be referring to?


_Der Fliegende Hollander, Tannhauser, Lohengrin, Das Rheingold, Die Walkure, Siegfried, Gotterdammerung, Tristan und Isolde, Die Meistersinger von Nurnberg, Parsifal._

Wagner's first three operas are _Die Feen, Das Liebesverbot,_ and _Rienzi._ They have their attractions, but _Der Fliegende_ _Hollander _is the first really "Wagnerian" opera.


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## WildThing (Feb 21, 2017)

haydnguy said:


> Could NightHawk or anyone else enlighten me as to what works the 'Big Ten' might be referring to?


His 10 "mature" operas where he is generally considered to have come into his own - Der fliegende Holländer, Tannhäuser, Lohengrin, Das Rheingold, Die Walküre, Siegfried, Tristan und Isolde, Die Meistersinger von Nürnberg, Götterdämmerung, Parsifal

*Woodduck beat me to it! :lol:


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

Just when I thought I was out, they pull me back in. :lol: How many posts, I wonder, until this thread gets derailed?


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Barbebleu said:


> Just when I thought I was out, they pull me back in:lol: How many posts I wonder until this thread gets derailed?


What's nice is that the thread got "railed" near the start, with some good posts actually focused on the composer's work rather than you-know-what.


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