# Favorite St. Matthew's Passion



## EDaddy

I have read everywhere how, along with his Mass in D Minor (which I love), St. Matthews is perhaps Bach's other greatest musical achievement and is considered by many to be the topper-most summit in all western music. Indeed a lofty statement! So I decided the time has come to imbibe in this fountain of musical majesty... _but where to begin?_

So Bach and music lovers the world over... _harken!_ Put your digital quill pens to the web-paper and indulge me with your favorite St. M recordings. And don't be shy: Tell me why! :tiphat:

...if you don't mind.


----------



## Bulldog

My favorite St. Matthew is Herreweghe's first set on Harmonia Mundi - great drama, pacing and vocal contributions. If you don't want period instruments, avoid Herreweghe. On modern instruments, Klemperer is the only one I enjoy very much.


----------



## Morimur

The gold standard remains Klemperer's 1962 recording.


----------



## EDaddy

That's 2 for Klemperer! Noted. Thank you.


----------



## Bulldog

Just keep in mind that Klemperer is slow, really slow.


----------



## Morimur

Bulldog said:


> Just keep in mind that Klemperer is slow, really slow.


You say 'slow', I say 'solemn'. The Passion isn't meant to airy and briskly paced because it detracts from the seriousness of the subject matter. If one is looking for light entertainment, the Passion is not it.


----------



## Xiansheng

I'm a big fan of Richter's interpretation. It's much slower than most and doesn't use period instruments, but it finds opportunities in the music for emotional exploration that you don't get with most other recordings. As an example of what I'm talking about, there's a two measure stretch in #73 that coincides with the death of Jesus. It's a beautiful moment that may be the climax of the piece musically as well as dramatically (although Erbarme Dich may be the most beautiful aria ever written). Richter draws it out for over a minute and gives the notes a moment to sink in and really overcome you, while more straight-laced recordings dawdle here for half that time or less.

Also, the 1959 Richter recording features Fischer-Dieskau as the baritone soloist - though he's also on the Klemperer recording - which is a huge plus. Very few have the lungs to make it through Mache Diche unscathed, but DFD is up to the task.

Whatever you choose, enjoy the Matthew Passion!


----------



## Bulldog

Lope de Aguirre said:


> You say 'slow', I say 'solemn'.


I'm talking about tempo, and I never heard of a solemn tempo.


----------



## Xiansheng

*Hmmm*

It looks like my recommendation has mainly the same virtues as the Klemperer, which I haven't listened to. I'm recommending Richter over Gardiner, Herreweghe, Koopman, and Harnoncourt. Has anyone else listened to Richter? Are there reasons to prefer Klemperer to it?


----------



## DavidA

Richter's first is slow by modern standards but it is positively lively by the side of Klemperer! I have always had great respect for Richter 1 as I learned the piece through it. It has fervour and if you want the older approach it is pretty good, with Haeflinger and D F-D outstanding. 
However, fashions change and now we view Bach differently. Klemperer is only for those who enjoy a dirge. 
I've just got the new Jacobs and am considering it. There is a huge amount of fervour which is a definite plus.
Of the others I have, Gardiner is fabulously sung but a bit tight.
Herrewegh 1 is very satisfying.
Harnoncourt (his last one) is excellent.
But Jacobs may end up at the top, given time.


----------



## Oreb

The new Jacobs is very sprightly (fits easily on 2 CDs) but, amazingly, never feels rushed. I'm not sure that I'd suggest it as a first choice - but the more I listen to it the more impressed I am by it.


----------



## Art Rock

View attachment 34287


I am not a dedicated follower of fashion. This was my introduction to the masterpiece and it is still my go-to-CD every Easter.


----------



## moody

EDaddy said:


> That's 2 for Klemperer! Noted. Thank you.


Which ever one you go for you should also obtain the historical recording of Willem Mengelberg,the Concertgebouw Orchestra with Karl Erb as the Evangelist. Erb was perhaps the greatest Evangelist of all time.


----------



## DavidA

moody said:


> Which ever one you go for you should also obtain the historical recording of Willem Mengelberg,the Concertgebouw Orchestra with Karl Erb as the Evangelist. Erb was perhaps the greatest Evangelist of all time.


One should note this performance is heavily cut. Ther is also the unending succession of rubatos, exaggerated dynamics, inappropriate, thickly-spread legato, micromanaged phrasing, and a runaway harpsichordist who disfigures recitatives with staccato poundings are among the practices here some, used to a more HIP style, will find objectionable. Of course, many of these reflected the performing style of the time; others, the conductor's willfulness. Just where this performance lies today is a matter of opinion. And accepting that Erb is good, to describe him as the 'greatest evangelist' in the light of some of the superb singers of the part around today (Gura for Jacobs is simply superb) might be a bit overstated.


----------



## DavidA

Art Rock said:


> View attachment 34287
> 
> 
> I am not a dedicated follower of fashion. This was my introduction to the masterpiece and it is still my go-to-CD every Easter.


I must confess I prefer the earlier recording by Richter. By this time he appeared to have got far too slow. His doing the charge of the heavy Brigade on the harpsichord did not help the performance either


----------



## GioCar

My favorite *Matthäus*?
I realized that, for most of ther times, it's the newest one I have listened to, possibly because I tend to discover new things that intrigue me.

So at the moment I'd say the recent Jacobs









I like Jacobs' sense of drama, and I find that the alternation of dramatic and meditative points is quite effective here.

Looking back at my past listening experience, I'd say that Harnoncourt (2nd) and Klemperer are those which I am fonder of, even if now I find the Klemperer one not having a Bach "sound" (sorry, I cannot find a better word) any more.


----------



## Il_Penseroso

I recommended this in another thread before, but again:


----------



## Oreb

One to avoid is the Harnoncourt from 2000 - unless the prospect of a soprano sounding like a harpy (Christine Schafer) seems appealing...

A pity, because the ever-reliable Matthias Goerne is in particularly fine voice throughout.


----------



## Itullian

A vote for Klemperer , old style
Herreweghe 99, HIP


----------



## DavidA

Oreb said:


> One to avoid is the Harnoncourt from 2000 - unless the prospect of a soprano sounding like a harpy (Christine Schafer) seems appealing...
> 
> A pity, because the ever-reliable Matthias Goerne is in particularly fine voice throughout.


Agree about Goerne but Schafer sounds to me. In any case, what us a 'harpy'?


----------



## moody

DavidA said:


> One should note this performance is heavily cut. Ther is also the unending succession of rubatos, exaggerated dynamics, inappropriate, thickly-spread legato, micromanaged phrasing, and a runaway harpsichordist who disfigures recitatives with staccato poundings are among the practices here some, used to a more HIP style, will find objectionable. Of course, many of these reflected the performing style of the time; others, the conductor's willfulness. Just where this performance lies today is a matter of opinion. And accepting that Erb is good, to describe him as the 'greatest evangelist' in the light of some of the superb singers of the part around today (Gura for Jacobs is simply superb) might be a bit overstated.


It is generally accepted that Erb was the best, have you listened or are you speaking without that knowledge.
As for your other points ,I'm sure you are right I only listen to Erb and have everything he ever recorded.


----------



## realdealblues

View attachment 34324


Karl Richter's 1958 Recording for me. While I love Klemperer, it's Richter who really is the only one who brings this dramatic work to "Life". For myself, no one else before or since has matched him for absolute love and passion of this work (and all things Bach for that matter) and the ability to convey and transcend that emotion back to me, the listener.


----------



## Guest

I have the 2nd Herreweghe recording, the Rilling recording on Hanssler, and excerpts of Suzuki's on BIS. I have also heard the Harnoncourt (2001) recording, Gardiner's, and Klemperer's. Of these, I love the Herreweghe. I do think there is a solemnity to the music, but I don't think it should be extremely so, for, as any Christian recognizes, while the suffering and death of the Savior were tragic things, there is also the wonderful gift that it brought to man, so in a weird way, for me, I like a little more optimism in my solemnity.

I still mean to add the Klemperer to my collection. I have heard it and greatly enjoyed it, and, after all, it is Klemperer!


----------



## Itullian

drmike said:


> i have the 2nd herreweghe recording, the rilling recording on hanssler, and excerpts of suzuki's on bis. I have also heard the harnoncourt (2001) recording, gardiner's, and klemperer's. *of these, i love the herreweghe. * i do think there is a solemnity to the music, but i don't think it should be extremely so, for, as any christian recognizes, while the suffering and death of the savior were tragic things, there is also the wonderful gift that it brought to man, so in a weird way, for me, i like a little more optimism in my solemnity.
> 
> I still mean to add the klemperer to my collection. I have heard it and greatly enjoyed it, and, *after all, it is klemperer*!


yessssssssssss


----------



## Mandryka

Butt.

I like it because of the responsiveness of the singers, because it's not monumental, and because it's so transparent. I like OVPP very much in Bach just on aesthetic grounds. 

From older recordings there are two special ones for me -- Mengelberg and Scherchen. Scherchen is interesting because of the relationship between Christ and the Evangelist -- though personally I'm not a great fan of Cuenod. I am a great fan of Erb's voice though, and for me he makes Mengelberg's St Matthew Passion very special.


----------



## DavidA

moody said:


> It is generally accepted that Erb was the best, have you listened or are you speaking without that knowledge.
> As for your other points ,I'm sure you are right I only listen to Erb and have everything he ever recorded.


Mind you, Moody, if you only listen to Erb, how do you know how good (or otherwise) other evangelists are? I have never heard anyone else mention Erb but that maybe that is because the recording now is hors concours. That's not to say he wasn't good, btw. But I do note he first sang the role in 1915. There have been many great singers of the role since then.


----------



## Oreb

I listened to part 1 on the Klemperer last night - first time in a couple of years spent exploring more modern accounts.

As stunning as I had remembered.


----------



## Marschallin Blair

Oreb said:


> I listened to part 1 on the Klemperer last night - first time in a couple of years spent exploring more modern accounts.
> 
> As stunning as I had remembered.


Try on this Karajan couture, look in the mirror, and tell me how radiant you look with it on:


----------



## Marschallin Blair

With Karajan presenting himself on such suave and ingratiating Gallic terms, how could I resist?


----------



## Il_Penseroso

Itullian said:


> A vote for Klemperer , old style


Another vote for Klemperer.... oh, and another vote for the old style as well! :tiphat:


----------



## Itullian

Marschallin Blair said:


> Try on this Karajan couture, look in the mirror, and tell me how radiant you look with it on:
> 
> View attachment 34361


I have that and like it a lot. Wish they'd remaster it.


----------



## Oreb

Marschallin Blair said:


> Try on this Karajan couture, look in the mirror, and tell me how radiant you look with it on:
> 
> View attachment 34361


I'll get to it, but it's going to have to wait its turn. Next up for me is Richter mark 1.


----------



## Guest

I like some of Karajan's recordings. I like his 60's Beethoven symphony cycle, his recording of the Mozart horn concertos with Dennis Brain, his Dvorak cello concerto with Rostropovich. But I have not always been enamored by his recordings of religious choral works. There was a recording of his of the Mozart Requiem that kind of turned me off the work for a while.


----------



## EDaddy

Amazing how different recordings speak to different ears. Is it not? I find myself being drawn to starting with the Klemperer for first listen and then going from there. Sometimes experiencing a rich piece of music at a more relaxed tempo for initial listening seems to work for me. Perhaps it's because it doesn't fly by so fast... easier to take in. 

It's been fun sitting back and reading everyone's passions about The Passion! Thx all!


----------



## DavidA

Woken up early so am listening to Jacobs.


----------



## SimonNZ

I stated on another thread recently that my personal faves for SMP are Richter's first and Herreweghe's second, concurring, I'm happy to note, with a number of posts here. But the talk of Klemperer reminded me that its been many years since I've heard it.

So: for the last 3 hours and 44 minutes I've played all nine sides, and its been wonderful hearing it again. And while the chorales, including the opening one, are quite remarkably slower than usual, the set as a whole never felt slow to me - I'd instead use the word that EDaddy chose: relaxed - I was quite happy to load up the next side when each one finished. In fact I was half expecting when half way through and I looked up comparative running times on the Bach-Cantatas site to find this was standard length, or maybe just a wee bit over.

Still not my favorite and perhaps not for everyday use but a timeless document with a dream team of soloists.

I think the closing comments in the Third Ear Guide put it best: "Klemperer distilled the essence of the "romantic" approach at its best into a performance that neutralizes any musicological reservations and invites the listener to share in its eternal vision. No Bach collector, from arch-reactionary to unforgiving purists should overlook it."


----------



## moody

DavidA said:


> Mind you, Moody, if you only listen to Erb, how do you know how good (or otherwise) other evangelists are? I have never heard anyone else mention Erb but that maybe that is because the recording now is hors concours. That's not to say he wasn't good, btw. But I do note he first sang the role in 1915. There have been many great singers of the role since then.


I don't much like Bach so T don't listen to other versions. But my point is that every write -up on Erb mentions his pre-eminence in this role ad nauseum.
When you listen to a 1904 record of say Caruso you don't mention the orchestra because you are only interested in the voice.
You will notice that I said that whichever version the OP bought he should also get hold of the Erb---that's all so let's drop it now.


----------



## Mandryka

The best modern evangelist I've heard is Rufus Müller. There's a production of the passion which Jonathan Miller did for the BBC on youtube which is well worth hearing. 

Re Erb, his voice is characterful, and I can imagine some people are repelled, just as some people are repelled by Pears and Vickers. Mengelberg is also very prayerful, and that may not suit everyone. This is, after all, an opera.


----------



## Guest

I am listening to the Mengelberg on YouTube. I am enjoying it. Will it replace my other favorites? I don't know. But I still enjoy listening to other versions of some of my favorite works.


----------



## Bas

I want my Bach in small ensembles, more authentic to the baroque performance tradition. I have two favourites, one is favourite as the best recording (overall: sound, orchestra, singers, ensemble, tempi), that one is the one by John Butt and his Dunedin Consort:









And I am also very fond Herreweghe's 1998 recording, especially for the soloists (Andreas Scholl!)


----------



## gardibolt

Listened to the Gardiner, Suzuki, Cleobury and Karajan versions (plus one other that's slipping my mind) of the Matthew Passion last weekend in conjunction with Gardiner's book. I am finding myself obsessed with the excruciatingly discordant B-natural that Bach slips into the closing cadence of the final chorus--it's still running through my head. It's so odd and out of place to the point it's almost otherworldly. It's a fascinating choice that Gardiner touches on briefly (mostly just to point it out). Give it a listen and see if it affects you. Any thoughts on what significance this may have? 

All four of these versions have their merits: Gardiner is probably most expressive; Suzuki feels the most authentic but is a little on the sterile side; Cleobury has some interesting vocal choices, and Karajan has the old-style big band sound that's not exactly Bach but certainly is effective.


----------



## Woodduck

gardibolt said:


> Listened to the Gardiner, Suzuki, Cleobury and Karajan versions (plus one other that's slipping my mind) of the Matthew Passion last weekend in conjunction with Gardiner's book. *I am finding myself obsessed with the excruciatingly discordant B-natural that Bach slips into the closing cadence of the final chorus--it's still running through my head. It's so odd and out of place to the point it's almost otherworldly. It's a fascinating choice that Gardiner touches on briefly (mostly just to point it out). Give it a listen and see if it affects you. Any thoughts on what significance this may have? *


The appoggiatura ("leaning" note) a step or half step below the main note it precedes is a common ornament in Baroque and later music, though less common than the appoggiatura from above. The appoggiatura from below is effective at suggesting grave pathos, and conveys a strong sense of inevitability (it _must_ resolve) when it occurs on the leading tone at a cadence, as it does in this final chorus. You'll hear appoggiaturas from both directions throughout the piece, including at cadences before the final one, and the use of it at the end sums up for me the pain and pathos of the passion.


----------



## gardibolt

Yes, but for some reason none of them as so profoundly affecting to me as this one for some reason.


----------



## Xaltotun

I go with Klemperer but since I like Richter a lot, I'll have to check out his version as well.


----------



## Pugg

For the "old school " Richter, bit I do like Schreier (as conductor) and Karajan also


----------



## ArtMusic

The "old school" sounds horrible to my ears, I prefer the period instrument performances. Latter also present earlier and later versions of the great work beyond the "standard version". I like this one,


----------



## Steatopygous

ArtMusic said:


> The "old school" sounds horrible to my ears, I prefer the period instrument performances. Latter also present earlier and later versions of the great work beyond the "standard version". I like this one,


This is very highly regarded, and I would like to hear it. 
In some ways I agree about historically informed performance, and in some ways I don't. There, that was helpful wasn't it! 
I like the clarity and crispness of HIP but sometimes it can sound academic and mannered. Not sure, for example, about one voice per part. And now, slow tempi a la Klemperer sound mannered too. But I still love many of these magnificent old recordings, in which sheer love of the music shines through


----------



## Steatopygous

moody said:


> Which ever one you go for you should also obtain the historical recording of Willem Mengelberg,the Concertgebouw Orchestra with Karl Erb as the Evangelist. Erb was perhaps the greatest Evangelist of all time.


Matthew, Mark, Luke and John might object to that. Ditto St Paul. Or Augustine, or that chap who took the gospel to the Slavs. Or Billy Graham. etc


----------



## Andolink

I'm surprised, going through this thread that no one mentioned this recording:









What I really like about it is it perfectly captures the profundity of the music without making it theatrically dramatic. Subtle, understated and all the more powerfully deep because of that.


----------



## Bix

I sang in St Matthew's Passion in March this year and did a lot of research to better understand all aspects. With regards recordings there are many great ones but the one that took me by surprise (which has already been mentioned) is:

Harmonia Mundi
Collegium Vocale Gent with Philippe Herreweghe
Ian Bostridge as The Evangelist and Franz-Josef Selig as Jesus


----------



## Boothvoice

Another vote for Klemperer....the first one I ever heard....a great place to start...


----------



## sospiro

The very first time I saw it was at King's College Cambridge with Stephen Cleobury and I love his version.










I listened to lots of versions before I went and my favourite is this.


----------



## Boothvoice

You are fortunate to be where you are....I grew up in West Virgina (USA) in the 50s and 60s...never saw an orchestra ...but came to love classical music as my parents listened to recordings in the evenings and Sunday afternoons. Most of their music was courtesy of the Columbia Record club..so lots of Szell, Ormandy, Bernstein and Gould. There wasn't a record store within a day's drive.


----------



## sospiro

Boothvoice said:


> You are fortunate to be where you are....I grew up in West Virgina (USA) in the 50s and 60s...never saw an orchestra ...but came to love classical music as my parents listened to recordings in the evenings and Sunday afternoons. Most of their music was courtesy of the Columbia Record club..so lots of Szell, Ormandy, Bernstein and Gould. There wasn't a record store within a day's drive.


Yes I do appreciate the fact that there are venues for music and opera so close to home. Earlier this year I went to Amsterdam to see Verdi's _Macbeth_ and while I was there Matthew Passion was on at the Concertgebouw so I grabbed myself a ticket and went. It was superb.


----------



## Morimur

Bas said:


> I want my Bach in small ensembles, more authentic to the baroque performance tradition. I have two favourites, one is favourite as the best recording (overall: sound, orchestra, singers, ensemble, tempi), that one is the one by John Butt and his Dunedin Consort:
> 
> View attachment 34417
> 
> 
> And I am also very fond Herreweghe's 1998 recording, especially for the soloists (Andreas Scholl!)
> 
> View attachment 34418


Indeed-those are excellent recordings of Matthew.


----------



## Asterix77

My favourite is the 1993 recording of Ton Koopman, but it is more or less out of nostalgic reasons. It was the first Mattheus Passion rendition I bought, and it costed me an and a leg. I still think it is a very good performance.

Take away the nostalgia...I'll go for the Herreweghe one (1999) if only for Andreas Scholl! 
I also like the intimate versions of Kuijken and Butt although I do not share the opinion that Bach did only one voice per part instead of a "full" choir.


----------



## DavidA

The first Herreweghe recording is very fine indeed. I find it most satisfying. Of course, in such a work there is no 'right' way (as indeed Bach may have performed it very differently with different available forces if he'd have had the chance) to perform the work but it is amazing how it still speaks through the years. I remember my first hearing when I bought my wife the Richter recording for our wedding anniversary as she's sung in the ripen chorus as a girl under Sir David Wilcocks. The first chord sounded and I was hooked!


----------



## joen_cph

Should I pick one right now to listen to, I´d take *Ericson* on Vanguard.

I´ve also got Mengelberg (LP), Scherchen (LP), Klemperer (LP), Richter (LP), Cleobury (CD), and Gardiner (CD), so quite a mixture of styles. Ericson is somewhat in between monumental and minimalist forces.


----------



## AClockworkOrange

Whilst I like the Dunedin Consort's recording a lot, my favourite recording remains Otto Klemperer leading the Philharmonia.

Klemperer was my first and despite being resolutely not HIP (which these days is refreshing), it captures the essence of the music wonderfully. Klemperer has a fantastic grasp of Bach's music and always serves his music well. It balances the full orchestra very well and maintains the structure and clarity of the music.

As far as tempi go, given the proclivity for speed in many HIP ensembles or hybrid approaches it is little wonder Klemperer's tempi can be seen as a shade challenging at times in comparison. Listened to on it's own merits and standing however, it just feels right.


----------



## DavidA

AClockworkOrange said:


> Whilst I like the Dunedin Consort's recording a lot, my favourite recording remains Otto Klemperer leading the Philharmonia.
> 
> Klemperer was my first and despite being resolutely not HIP (which these days is refreshing), it captures the essence of the music wonderfully. Klemperer has a fantastic grasp of Bach's music and always serves his music well. It balances the full orchestra very well and maintains the structure and clarity of the music.
> 
> As far as tempi go, given the proclivity for speed in many HIP ensembles or hybrid approaches it is little wonder Klemperer's tempi can be seen as a shade challenging at times in comparison. Listened to on it's own merits and standing however, it just feels right.


Frankly I can't take Klemperer's approach in this work. It is all too massive and turgid and worlds away from what Bach had n mind. I know some of the HIP brigade have gone the opposite extreme but somethng a bit more flowing appeals. Herreweghe's first shot is an example. Or if you want modern instruments try Richter's first (not the second by which time he was in the Klemperer mould).


----------



## isorhythm

I know there's good stuff in the Klemperer but I can't even listening to the opening chorus. It was somehow traditional at one point to do Bach choruses slower than _all other music_ - I mean, in terms of beats per minute, it's literally slower than his Bruckner adagios - I don't know where that came from but it made no sense at all.

The first recording I bought is the 1999 Herreweghe and that's probably still my favorite.


----------



## jenspen

AClockworkOrange said:


> As far as tempi go, given the proclivity for speed in many HIP ensembles or hybrid approaches it is little wonder Klemperer's tempi can be seen as a shade challenging at times in comparison. Listened to on it's own merits and standing however, it just feels right.


I've read in several places that the soloists had trouble sustaining their breath because of the slow tempi. I haven't got an opinion of my own yet about this recording.


----------



## DavidA

Sorry but the Klemperer is totally misconceived to me. He makes eg Richter and Karajan (no speed merchants) seem like racehorses! Bach with the forces he had available couldn't have conceived such a slow tempo for the opening chorus. It's more akin to a Bruckner adagio.

An interesting link I found on this that compares speeds:

http://www.bach-cantatas.com/Vocal/BWV244-Gen2.htm


----------



## nightscape

Klemperer's is about as un-historically informed as you can get, but there's a power around it that is undeniable for me. It's not my favorite, but it's a mighty performance that's quite beautiful.

Herreweghe's second crack at it is probably the best overall. With a work that nearly 3 hours long it's impossible for me to find a "perfect" one, but that comes about as close as you're likely to find.

I like Suzuki's as well.


----------



## Pugg

I found this one in my local second hand shop € 5.00

_Very pleasant listing.
_




​


----------



## Steatopygous

DavidA said:


> Frankly I can't take Klemperer's approach in this work. It is all too massive and turgid and worlds away from what Bach had n mind. I know some of the HIP brigade have gone the opposite extreme but somethng a bit more flowing appeals. Herreweghe's first shot is an example. Or if you want modern instruments try Richter's first (not the second by which time he was in the Klemperer mould).


When did Johann tell you what he had in mind? Would you like to share it?

Have you heard the marvellous anecdote with Klemperer performing the Mass in London? The soloists are all concerned that it is far too slow, but are too nervous to say so. They elect Fischer-Dieskau, a fellow German, as their spokesman. the next day at rehearsal FD speaks up. "Herr Klemperer, God came to me in a dream last night and told me the Mass is too slow." Klemperer lifts his baton and conducts even more slowly. After a few bars he stops: "God came to me in a dream last night also. He asked, Who is this Fischer-Dieskau?"

Boom boom!


----------



## isorhythm

Steatopygous said:


> When did Johann tell you what he had in mind? Would you like to share it?


JSB told us in the score he wrote, which is in 6/8, not 3/2.


----------



## DavidA

Steatopygous said:


> When did Johann tell you what he had in mind? Would you like to share it?
> 
> Have you heard the marvellous anecdote with Klemperer performing the Mass in London? The soloists are all concerned that it is far too slow, but are too nervous to say so. They elect Fischer-Dieskau, a fellow German, as their spokesman. the next day at rehearsal FD speaks up. "Herr Klemperer, God came to me in a dream last night and told me the Mass is too slow." Klemperer lifts his baton and conducts even more slowly. After a few bars he stops: "God came to me in a dream last night also. He asked, Who is this Fischer-Dieskau?"
> 
> Boom boom!


if I told you I had a dream in which I had a personal communication with Bach and he told me Klemperer was too slow you probably wouldn't believe me! I think there's enough evidence available on the net and elsewhere as to what Bach intended without we putting my four-pennyworth in. And what you have just said about the communication between D F-D and K - even the (HIP uniformed) soloists thought it was too slow!


----------



## isorhythm

^Richter's later recording is worth having for DF-D alone. But otherwise I'm still gonna prefer HIP.


----------



## gravitas

There's a performance by Herreweghe on you tube with very good sound quality 



 but sadly no subtitles...


----------



## gravitas

ArtMusic said:


> The "old school" sounds horrible to my ears, I prefer the period instrument performances. Latter also present earlier and later versions of the great work beyond the "standard version". I like this one,


This is a OVPP performance, correct? I know the Butt B minor mass is....


----------



## hpowders

Karl Richter and forces.


----------



## fluteman

Karl Munchinger with Fritz Wunderlich, Peter Pears, Hermann Prey, Tom Krause, Elly Ameling and Marga Hoffgen on Decca. I guess Munchinger's Bach is out of fashion these days, but that doesn't make this any less splendid.


----------



## Pugg

Still my number one :tiphat:


----------



## Xaltotun

If Bach came to my dreams and said that what he intended was something totally different than what Klemperer did, I think I'd say "Sorry, dear Maestro, I just don't care. HAIL KLEMPERER!"


----------



## Reichstag aus LICHT

For a "traditional" recording, my choice would be Karl Münchinger's recording with Peter Pears as Evangelist and Hermann Prey as Christus, both wonderful. Major bonuses include Tom Krause, Elly Ameling and Fritz Wunderlich singing the arias, and the orchestra and chorus are top-notch as well. Still a favourite after all these years.

I now prefer the clarity of the "HIP" approach, though, and here we're spoilt for choice. You can't go wrong with Herreweghe, Gardiner or René Jacobs, who are well-known in the field and have produced fine recordings of the SMP. However, I've recently derived a great deal of pleasure from lesser-known conductors like Jos van Veldhoven and Peter Dijkstra, and I can recommend their recordings wholeheartedly. They're available on the "Channel Classics" and "BR Klassik" labels respectively.


----------



## dream

Brand new here and to classical music, really. My main exposure to classical has been St. Matthew Passion (along with a little English choral music). Thought I'd share that last spring I first heard Herreweghe's....not even sure which one...and then compared it with Gardiner and Harnoncourt (youtube and spotify)....never giving the 'traditional' ones a shot. I'm wanting to buy a copy, so I was reading your thoughts here and decided to check out some of the older recordings. I think I am going to purchase Richter's 1958 recording, it is the one I keep going back to listen to over the last couple weeks...and maybe Gardiner's 1989, too (just because I could listen to Barbara Bonney sing the phone book). I really can't tell you what it is I like about Richter's, but it seems so dang large, powerful and dramatic? I don't have a conditioned ear or much experience, all I know is Richter's (surprisingly) appeals to me. I will admit, the vibrato is somewhat noticed at times, but I think it belongs in this one. Never thought I'd ever say that....I am your typical 'not sure I like opera singing' guy. Anyway, I think Richter and Gardiner it is. 

Thanks to all of you who are willing to share your experience and knowledge with all of us that lack it. Great resource, here.


----------



## Pugg

I always keep coming back to this one:



Bach, J S: St Matthew Passion, BWV244

Gundala Janowitz, Christa Ludwig, Peter Schreier, Dietrich Fischer-Dieskau, Walter Berry, Horst Laubenthal, Anton Diakov

Wiener Singverein, Chor der Deutschen Oper Berlin & Berliner Philharmoniker, Herbert von Karajan


----------



## Asterix77

or this one:









Koopman is special to me as it was the first one I owned...but I like Herreweghe a lot especially for Andreas Scholl and the beautiful choir.


----------



## CDs

Can anyone comment on this CD?







Helmuth Rilling
It's the only St Matthews Passion I've got. I was looking to add another version possibly Herreweghe.


----------



## Pugg

CDs said:


> Can anyone comment on this CD?
> View attachment 94183
> 
> Helmuth Rilling
> It's the only St Matthews Passion I've got. I was looking to add another version possibly Herreweghe.



Can you enlarge the pic please......


----------



## CDs

Maybe this one will be bigger.









https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B000...8_QL65&keywords=st+Matthew's+passion+rillings


----------



## Pugg

CDs said:


> Maybe this one will be bigger.
> 
> View attachment 94187
> 
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B000...8_QL65&keywords=st+Matthew's+passion+rillings


You do know these are only highlights?


----------



## CDs

^yeah I realized that when I was listening to it today.


----------



## Pugg

CDs said:


> ^yeah I realized that when I was listening to it today.


It's got good voices, and it's remastered ( other cover).
So if you can live with highlights, .............go for it.


----------



## Marc

Probably a tie between Gustav Leonhardt (DHM) and Hermann Max (Capriccio).
I think that probably Leonhardt offers the best balanced and 'baroque Lutheran service-like' Matthäus (whatever that may be ).
But unfortunately countertenor René Jacobs lost his best form during the 1980s, which is audible.
The completely non-artificial yet very involved performance of "Erbarme dich, mein Gott" in Max's recording (sung by Lena Susanne Norin) still sounds like a once-in-a-lifetime experience to me. And the entire performance is very good, too: swiftly paced, yet never hasty.

Oh, and FWIW, my favourite Evangelist isn't Karl Erb, but Kurt Equiluz.


----------



## DavidA

Pugg said:


> I always keep coming back to this one:
> 
> 
> 
> Bach, J S: St Matthew Passion, BWV244
> 
> Gundala Janowitz, Christa Ludwig, Peter Schreier, Dietrich Fischer-Dieskau, Walter Berry, Horst Laubenthal, Anton Diakov
> 
> Wiener Singverein, Chor der Deutschen Oper Berlin & Berliner Philharmoniker, Herbert von Karajan


Certainly a remarkable performance based on years of conducting the work.


----------



## Pugg

DavidA said:


> Certainly a remarkable performance based on years of conducting the work.


To me it sound more like a opera sometimes.


----------



## AfterHours

This is the greatest rendition I've ever heard, and among the most substantial Classical recordings ever, of any work:


----------



## Pugg

AfterHours said:


> This is the greatest rendition I've ever heard, and among the most substantial Classical recordings ever, of any work:


If only they left Scholl out.


----------



## Marc

AfterHours said:


> This is the greatest rendition I've ever heard, and among the most substantial Classical recordings ever, of any work:


I prefer Herreweghe's first recording (1984), despite the fact that the 2nd one (1998) has got better sonics and a better countertenor (Andreas Scholl). To me though, the 2nd is more slick and less expressive than the 1st. Another weak link of the 1998 performance is Evangelist Ian Bostridge, who is over-emotional and sometimes even over-hysterical in my opinion, which doesn't add to the drama at all. Howard Crook, as a storyteller, does a much better job in finding a refined balance between objectivity and involvement. Other pros of Herreweghe 1 are Barbara Schlick, Hans-Peter Blochwitz and Peter Kooij.


----------



## AfterHours

Marc said:


> I prefer Herreweghe's first recording (1984), despite the fact that the 2nd one (1998) has got better sonics and a better countertenor (Andreas Scholl). To me though, the 2nd is more slick and less expressive than the 1st. Another weak link of the 1998 performance is Evangelist Ian Bostridge, who is over-emotional and sometimes even over-hysterical in my opinion, which doesn't add to the drama at all. Howard Crook, as a storyteller, does a much better job in finding a refined balance between objectivity and involvement. Other pros of Herreweghe 1 are Barbara Schlick, Hans-Peter Blochwitz and Peter Kooij.


Thanks for your view. While the Herreweghe performance I posted is one I don't recall having any issues with, I've also been away from St Matthew Passion for quite some time (aside from 2 listens, 5+ years). I will be returning to it in the near future and will revisit other recordings, including re-evaluating both Herreweghe's -- and hopefully find some new outstanding renditions too! -- and will also take your points into possible consideration and see if I agree with them or not.


----------



## Marc

AfterHours said:


> Thanks for your view. While the Herreweghe performance I posted is one I don't recall having any issues with, I've also been away from St Matthew Passion for quite some time (aside from 2 listens, 5+ years). I will be returning to it in the near future and will revisit other recordings, including re-evaluating both Herreweghe's -- and hopefully find some new outstanding renditions too! -- and will also take your points into possible consideration and see if I agree with them or not.


Sure, and, of course, you might find that you disagree with me on all terms. 

During the last 10 to 15 years many new recordings of Bach's SMP have been thrown onto the market... it's almost impossible to keep track of it. Some of them are very interesting though.


----------



## NishmatHaChalil

I think the best I have listened to in its entirety was Richter's. I'm young and don't have any money of my own, however, so, generally relying on youtube for comparisons, I usually don't share many of my own impressions in threads like this, although I'm always delighted in reading what others have to say. Regarding Richter, I second what was said of him in the first page. I usually listen to the Passion at least once a year, so I am going to see if I can check some of the other recommendations as well.


----------



## Pugg

NishmatHaChalil said:


> I think the best I have listened to in its entirety was Richter's. I'm young and don't have any money of my own, however, so, generally relying on youtube for comparisons, I usually don't share many of my own impressions in threads like this, although I'm always delighted in reading what others have to say. Regarding Richter, I second what was said of him in the first page. I usually listen to the Passion at least once a year, so I am going to see if I can check some of the other recommendations as well.


In my country we have a St Matthew Passion/ Easter tradition, roughly 100 performances in the weeks coming up to Easter.


----------



## NishmatHaChalil

Pugg said:


> In my country we have a St Matthew Passion/ Easter tradition, roughly 100 performances in the weeks coming up to Easter.


Interesting! I did not know about it before, but I love this tradition. I listen to the piece almost every Easter myself. Bach is my father's favorite composer, and I have been listening to it during the period since my childhood.


----------



## chromatic owl

My absolute favourite is the recording with the Bach Collegium Japan, Suzuki conducting.


----------



## Pugg

chromatic owl said:


> My absolute favourite is the recording with the Bach Collegium Japan, Suzuki conducting.


Never ever heard it I am ashamed to say.


----------



## DavidA

chromatic owl said:


> My absolute favourite is the recording with the Bach Collegium Japan, Suzuki conducting.


Suzuki Shares Bach's faith - he is a Lutheran


----------



## Phil loves classical

I just finished relistening to Klemperer's version today, and saw this thread. It is amazing, musically by far the most affecting for me. I used to find it dead slow when compared side-by-side to a couple other versions I have on HiP, like Herwegghe's 2nd version (used to be my favourite until yesterday/today), Gardiner's and McCreesh's, and also compared to Richter's. But Klemperer's brought me to places I never thought I'd go. Although it's not as colourful, it more than makes up in it's intensity. Has become one of my desert island favourites.


----------



## Pugg

Phil loves classical said:


> I just finished relistening to Klemperer's version today, and saw this thread. It is amazing, musically by far the most affecting for me. I used to find it dead slow when compared side-by-side to a couple other versions I have on HiP, like Herwegghe's 2nd version (used to be my favourite until yesterday/today), Gardiner's and McCreesh's, and also compared to Richter's. But Klemperer's brought me to places I never thought I'd go. Although it's not as colourful, it more than makes up in it's intensity. Has become one of my desert island favourites.


You should try the Karajan, sensational .


----------



## bigboy

Sorry if this question has been asked and answered already:
Does any know of a Matthew Passion which is sung in English, along the lines of what the Met did a few years ago with the Magic Flute and a few other popular operas (pop-eras? )?


----------



## Pugg

bigboy said:


> Sorry if this question has been asked and answered already:
> Does any know of a Matthew Passion which is sung in English, along the lines of what the Met did a few years ago with the Magic Flute and a few other popular operas (pop-eras? )?


https://www.amazon.co.uk/St-Matthew-Passion-Complete-English/dp/B002R1PRPI


----------



## Portamento

My favorite St. Matthew's Passion is the one by Bach. :tiphat:


----------



## Pugg

The question however ... which version as stated in O.P .


----------



## Marc

i like music said:


> My favorite St. Matthew's Passion is the one by Bach. :tiphat:


Which one do you prefer? 
The 1727, 1729 or 1736/1742 version?


----------



## Pugg

Marc said:


> Which one do you prefer?
> The 1727, 1729 or 1736/1742 version?


Great question!!!!!


----------



## hpowders

They are a bit dated and old-fashioned by today's HIP standards, but I would taker Karl Richter's performances of both the St. Matthew Passion and the Mass in B minor over any one else's versions.


----------



## JSBach85

Wow, one of my favourite topics!. Despite I love Bach passions, It's been a long time I haven't heard recordings. I own 9 recordings of St John Passion and only 4 recordings of Matthew Passion. The ones I own are: Herreweghe, Dunedin Consort, Harnoncourt (second recording), Leonhardt. I am interested in McCreesh, Suzuki and maybe Gardiner or Koopman. Somebody owns or have an opinion about Suzuki, Gardiner or Koopman?


----------



## wkasimer

Stay away from Gardiner's new recording - the soloists are third-rate at best. His first recording is fine, although if you have Herreweghe, Dunedin, and Leonhardt, you might not need it. The women soloists on the first recording are excellent; the men not so much. It strikes me as HIP for people who aren't really into HIP.

Suzuki's is flawlessly performed, but I find it rather passionless, pun not intended. Koopman has two recordings, both quite good. 

You really need something that's isn't HIP, though - somethings like Corboz' recording, which boasts the best soloists of any recording I know, or Rilling's last one on Hanssler, which has all of the drama and superb singing, with modern instruments but with some HIP influence.


----------



## Pugg

> You really need something that's isn't HIP, though - something like Corboz' recording, which boasts the best soloists of any recording I know,


Thank you for reminding me this one, it's on my shelf en did spin it earlier.


----------



## Barelytenor

EDaddy said:


> That's 2 for Klemperer! Noted. Thank you.


The Klemperer is the only one I ever needed to own.

Kind regards, :tiphat:

George


----------



## MattB

The only one I own is the Karl Richter 1959 St. Matthew's Passion.
Which I find to be great but I'ld love to hear something more _Karajanesque_.

Any advices?


----------



## wkasimer

MattB said:


> The only one I own is the Karl Richter 1959 St. Matthew's Passion.
> Which I find to be great but I'ld love to hear something more _Karajanesque_.


What do you mean by "Karajanesque"? If you want Karajan, he made a recording for DG:

https://www.amazon.com/J-S-Bach-Matthäus-Passion-3-CDs/dp/B000VHIS2O

I found a cheap used copy a couple of weeks ago, and thought it was awful, but you may think differently - I'm not a fan of the 1959 Richter recording, either (I actually prefer the 1979 one).

If you want something less sedate than the Richter but with modern instruments, try Rilling's...

https://www.amazon.com/Bach-Matthew-Passion-Johann-Sebastian/dp/B0000365NE

...or, if you can find it, Corboz's...

https://www.amazon.com/Bach-Matthaus-Passion-BWV-Matthews-Passion/dp/B000005E6H

...or even Solti's, which is surprisingly good:

https://www.amazon.com/Bach-J-S-St-Matthew-Passion/dp/B01M1MTQ83


----------



## wkasimer

bigboy said:


> Sorry if this question has been asked and answered already:
> Does any know of a Matthew Passion which is sung in English?


There's one conducted by Willcocks, available on either ASV or Decca. Excellent solo work, but I can't seem to get used to hearing this work in English:















There's also a St. John Passion in English, also conducted by Willcocks:


----------



## wkasimer

DavidA said:


> One should note this performance is heavily cut. There is also the unending succession of rubatos, exaggerated dynamics, inappropriate, thickly-spread legato, micromanaged phrasing, and a runaway harpsichordist who disfigures recitatives with staccato poundings are among the practices here some, used to a more HIP style, will find objectionable. Of course, many of these reflected the performing style of the time; others, the conductor's willfulness. Just where this performance lies today is a matter of opinion. And accepting that Erb is good, to describe him as the 'greatest evangelist' in the light of some of the superb singers of the part around today (Gura for Jacobs is simply superb) might be a bit overstated.


The Mengelberg performance is worth hearing....once.

As for Erb, he was no doubt a great Evangelist (and probably better twenty or so years before this recorded performance, based on my hearing of his other recordings), but for me, the greatest Evangelist was Kurt Equiluz, who recorded the part at least four times - with Swarowsky, Corboz, and twice with Harnoncourt.


----------



## bobleflaneur

A pair of English composers can be added:



wkasimer said:


> There's one conducted by Willcocks, available on either ASV or Decca. Excellent solo work, but I can't seem to get used to hearing this work in English:
> 
> View attachment 95241
> View attachment 95242


The Ralph Vaughan Williams recording on Pearl is in English -- and surprisingly good.



> There's also a St. John Passion in English, also conducted by Willcocks:
> 
> View attachment 95243


And the Britten recording on Decca, which I seem to recall finding disappointing. Do you like the Willcocks better? Where can it be found? It's not turning up on amazon.


----------



## wkasimer

bobleflaneur said:


> And the Britten recording on Decca, which I seem to recall finding disappointing. Do you like the Willcocks better? Where can it be found? It's not turning up on amazon.


It's not easy to find - you have to search for it by label (Belart), not by conductor. Here it is on Amazon.com:

https://www.amazon.com/Bach-St-John-Passion/dp/B000027DN2

You may find it less expensive on Amazon.co.uk:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/offer-listing/B000027DN2

I haven't listened to the Britten in years (although it's sitting in a pile of CD's on my desk, begging to be played), but I listen to the Willcocks frequently, and enjoy it, mostly for the soloists (a younger Peter Pears and Helen Watts in particular). The sonics are a little more reverberant than I'd like, though. But bear in mind that this was my "imprint" St. John Passion back in the LP era.


----------



## MusicBear88

I thought that Britten only recorded St. John Passion, in English. Peter Pears is a marvelous Evangelist, with the text sensitivity required to keep the part engaging.

Klemperer's vocal cast may be the finest ever assembled if you can stand the tempi. I have no idea how Walter Berry got through "Mache dich, mein Herze, rein" at that glacial pace, but he sounds amazing doing it!

I'm surprised that nobody's mentioned John Eliot Gardiner's recording for Archiv, certainly one of the best HIP version in my opinion. Beautiful playing, and one of the better modern vocal casts: Anthony Rolfe Johnson, Evangelist; Andreas Schmidt, Jesus; Barbara Bonney, Ann Monoyios, sopranos; Anne Sofie von Otter, mezzo-soprano; Michael Chance, countertenor; Howard Crook, tenor; Olaf Bär, Cornelius Hauptmann, basses.

If you dislike period instruments but like the modern take on Bach's tempi, Riccardo Chailly recorded a version on Decca with Thomas Quasthoff singing the bass arias, probably its most attractive vocal feature.

I don't care for Harnoncourt's boy sopranos, Karl Richter's video performance is less than stellar but both recordings are good, though the earlier one is better for many things the later one has better women in Edith Mathis and Janet Baker. I prefer Herreweghe's earlier recording over the later as well. René Jacobs has some interesting ideas but I find the recording over-engineered. Paul McCreesh was the first to release a recording with one voice per part, but despite liking the individual singers, I find that the orchestra overwhelms the choral parts, which may be bad recording technique. There's also something distinctly underwhelming about hearing only seven people shout "Barrabam!" instead of even two dozen or so. Cleobury's version has an older but very serviceable Emma Kirkby.

I may have too many recordings of this piece, could you tell?


----------



## wkasimer

> Klemperer's vocal cast may be the finest ever assembled if you can stand the tempi.


...and Schwarzkopf. I'm allergic to her, which is among the reasons I almost never listen to the Klemperer. And to be honest, as great a singer as Gedda was in the right repertoire, Bach isn't it.



> If you dislike period instruments but like the modern take on Bach's tempi, Riccardo Chailly recorded a version on Decca with Thomas Quasthoff singing the bass arias, probably its most attractive vocal feature.


I think that Rilling does this every bit as well, but with much better soloists (i.e. Quasthoff with much better surroundings).



> René Jacobs has some interesting ideas but I find the recording over-engineered.


It's not so much over-engineered as it is simply misguided. Placing the two choirs in different parts of the church may have been how it was first performed, and may have been interesting when witnessed live, but as a recording, it doesn't really work.

I imprinted on the first Harnoncourt when I was in college, and I now recognize that the boy soloists are a serious liability - but there's no Evangelist like Kurt Equiluz, and Karl Ridderbusch is a superb Jesus.

Not a fan of Richter, and have never understood why everyone goes gaga over the 1958 recording, which is not very well sung compared to other recordings; the alto solos are particularly dire. If I have to listen to Richter, let it be 1979, which has much stronger solo work (especially from Janet Baker - is this her only St. Matthew?).


----------



## premont

i like music said:


> My favorite St. Matthew's Passion is the one by Bach. :tiphat:


I am afraid, that you will never find it.

Every performance is an interpretation, and how do you know if it is as Bach wanted it?

And even if you restrict yourself to read the score, you will - in your mind - hear your own interpretation.


----------



## Art Rock

i like music said:


> My favorite St. Matthew's Passion is the one by Bach. :tiphat:



View attachment 95255

..................................................
:devil:


----------



## MusicBear88

The CPE Bach St Matthew Passion, which evolved over twenty years and at least six versions, is full of daddy's music. The arias are new and original, but a lot of the chorale settings and _turba_ choruses are lifted wholesale from J.S. Bach's version (and St John Passion as well). Maybe he figured he couldn't do any better, so he might as well use the best!


----------



## vcoheda

i really like richter (1971 video on DG), gonnenwein (emi with hamari, crass among others), bernstein (in english), butt (ovpp). so many recordings but these are some that stand out.


----------



## hpowders

Karl Richter.


----------



## Botschaft

hpowders said:


> Karl Richter.


Though I would generally prefer Herreweghe or Koopman I do like his _Mache dich, mein Herze, rein_. Gardiner probably has the better opening movement:


----------



## Guest

I have that version of the *St. Matthew Passion* and I must admit I'm not so fond of it these days. The sound recording quality is rather harsh and doesn't come over well on my new hi-fi. Today I've been listening to Thomas Quasthoff singing Bach and writing about it on another board. I just love his version of "Mache dich mein Herze, rein". This sounds great with a Bluetooth device from the computer:


----------



## Botschaft

CountenanceAnglaise said:


> I have that version of the *St. Matthew Passion* and I must admit I'm not so fond of it these days. The sound recording quality is rather harsh and doesn't come over well on my new hi-fi. Today I've been listening to Thomas Quasthoff singing Bach and writing about it on another board. I just love his version of "Mache dich mein Herze, rein". This sounds great with a Bluetooth device from the computer:


That is a nice performance, though I would have prefered a lower register singer, but it seems that the St Matthew Passion never can be performed perfectly.


----------



## Pugg

Improbus said:


> That is a nice performance, though I would have prefered a lower register singer, but it seems that the St Matthew Passion never can be performed perfectly.


Do I understand that you are saying from all the recordings that are out there, you don't like one?


----------



## Botschaft

Pugg said:


> Do I understand that you are saying from all the recordings that are out there, you don't like one?


I like several, but none is completely satisfactory to me. The work itself however is one of my favorites.


----------



## Pugg

Improbus said:


> I like several, but none is completely satisfactory to me. The work itself however is one of my favorites.


Okay, now I understand, thanks


----------



## hpowders

I usually like some HIP Bach, but for the choral works and cantatas, Karl Richter and the Munich Bach Chior and Orchestra are the finest.

It didn't hurt that Richter seemed to always get the finest German vocal soloists available.

His Mass in B minor is for me, still unmatched!


----------



## Botschaft

hpowders said:


> I usually like some HIP Bach, but for the choral works and cantatas, Karl Richter and the Munich Bach Chior and Orchestra are the finest.
> 
> It didn't hurt that Richter seemed to always get the finest German vocal soloists available.
> 
> His Mass in B minor is for me, still unmatched!


Speaking of the mass in B minor, this is probably the greatest recording out there (and HIP as well).


----------



## wkasimer

> It didn't hurt that Richter seemed to always get the finest German vocal soloists available.


Hertha Töpper notwithstanding....


----------



## DavidA

The versions I have:

Richter (1958) - the best and most intense of the old school performances

Gardiner 1 - Superb singing though it does in places seem a little rushed and lacks heart

Herreweghe 1 - beautiful performance which conveys the spiritual element

Harnoncourt - the last one - probably best all round.

Jacobs - weird balances (deliberately - read the notes) but the most dramatic on disc. 

There is no perfect version of this piece (obviously). But any of the above will give satisfaction


----------



## Botschaft

DavidA said:


> There is no perfect version of this piece (obviously).


Tell me about it!


----------



## JSBach85

Sorry for the ignorance... I read a lot of comments concerning "Gardiner" recording but which one do you like?

Gardiner recording (1989)










Gardiner live recording (2017)










Thank you in advance.


----------



## wkasimer

JSBach85 said:


> Sorry for the ignorance... I read a lot of comments concerning "Gardiner" recording but which one do you like?
> 
> Gardiner recording (1989)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Gardiner live recording (2017)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thank you in advance.


The recording in the picture is the better one, by far. The recent live one features excellent orchestral and choral contributions, but the soloists are mostly pretty dreadful.


----------



## JSBach85

wkasimer said:


> The recording in the picture is the better one, by far. The recent live one features excellent orchestral and choral contributions, but the soloists are mostly pretty dreadful.


Thank you for your opinion, you saved me money so that I can focus on the first Gardiner recording that seems to be more solid in the vocal cast.


----------



## Guest

hpowders said:


> I usually like some HIP Bach, but for the choral works and cantatas, Karl Richter and the Munich Bach Chior and Orchestra are the finest.
> 
> It didn't hurt that Richter seemed to always get the finest German vocal soloists available.
> 
> His Mass in B minor is for me, still unmatched!


Agree with your last statement there!! It's a work of staggering magnificence. See; I'm running short of superlatives! Which version is your preferred? I have JEG/English Baroque Soloists/Monteverdi Choir but the recording quality is harsh, as is the "St. Matthew Passion" with the same group - mentioned earlier. I only have the one version of the B Minor Mass and think I need to find at least one other.


----------



## JSBach85

I want to get more recordings, I only accept period instrument orchestras, under H.I.P practice. I am now undecided, Gardiner 1st recording or Suzuki? Both vocal casts are appealing to me:

Gardiner:

Anthony Rolfe-Johnson (Evangelist)
Andreas Schmidt (Soprano)
Barbara Bonney (Soprano)
Ann Monoyios (Contralto)
Anne Sophie von Otter (Counter-Tenor)
Michael Chance (Tenor)
Howard Crook (Baritone)
Olaf Bär (Bajo)
Cornelius Hauptmann (Soprano)
Ruth Holton (Soprano)

Suzuki:

Gerd Türk (Bass)
Peter Kooy (Soprano)
Nancy Argenta (Counter-Tenor)
Robin Blaze (Tenor)
Makoto Sakurada (Bajo)
Chiyuki Urano (Soprano)
Midori Suzuki (Soprano)
Yoshie Hida (Alto)
Kirsten Sollek-Avella (Bajo)
Jun Hagiwara (Bajo)

Gardiner has Anthony Rolfe-Johnson, Barbara Bonney, Anne Sophie von Otter, Michael Chance and Howard Crook that were among my favourite singers but Suzuki has Gerd Türk and Peter Kooy, both among the best Bach cantatas male voices I ever heard. Suzuki is almost twice the price of Gardiner but I do not care about paying more since I prefer quality over quantity. Having only 4 recordings of Matthew Passion is like an insult for a Bach passionate like me


----------



## wkasimer

JSBach85 said:


> I want to get more recordings, I only accept period instrument orchestras, under H.I.P practice. I am now undecided, Gardiner 1st recording or Suzuki? Both vocal casts are appealing to me:
> 
> Gardiner:
> 
> Anthony Rolfe-Johnson (Evangelist)
> Andreas Schmidt (Soprano)
> Barbara Bonney (Soprano)
> Ann Monoyios (Contralto)
> Anne Sophie von Otter (Counter-Tenor)
> Michael Chance (Tenor)
> Howard Crook (Baritone)
> Olaf Bär (Bajo)
> Cornelius Hauptmann (Soprano)
> Ruth Holton (Soprano)
> 
> Suzuki:
> 
> Gerd Türk (Bass)
> Peter Kooy (Soprano)
> Nancy Argenta (Counter-Tenor)
> Robin Blaze (Tenor)
> Makoto Sakurada (Bajo)
> Chiyuki Urano (Soprano)
> Midori Suzuki (Soprano)
> Yoshie Hida (Alto)
> Kirsten Sollek-Avella (Bajo)
> Jun Hagiwara (Bajo)
> 
> Gardiner has Anthony Rolfe-Johnson, Barbara Bonney, Anne Sophie von Otter, Michael Chance and Howard Crook that were among my favourite singers but Suzuki has Gerd Türk and Peter Kooy, both among the best Bach cantatas male voices I ever heard. Suzuki is almost twice the price of Gardiner but I do not care about paying more since I prefer quality over quantity. Having only 4 recordings of Matthew Passion is like an insult for a Bach passionate like me


If you're committed to HIP, you'll prefer Suzuki. To me, the Gardiner is HIP for people who want to say that they're listening to HIP, but don't really want to hear it. And while I'm a great admirer of Anthony Rolfe Johnson, the Gardiner recording finds him in rather poor voice.

But there are lots of other HIP choices - Kuijken, Leonhardt, Butt, Herreweghe, Koopman, Harnoncourt, van Veldhoven, and Jacobs are all interesting at least, and you may prefer them to either Gardiner or Suzuki.


----------



## JSBach85

Yesterday I finally ordered Suzuki recording. Your list is very appealing to me, the recordings I own are: Leonhardt, Butt, Herreweghe and Harnoncourt. I am a big fan of Veldhoven recordings and I have the Magnificat, St. John Passion and Christmas Oratorio but I have not still listened any of the Matthew Passion recordings (as far as I know, there are two recordings, the first one with Andreas Scholl). The same with Koopman, there are two recordings, I would be more interested in the first one, with Guy de Mey, Peter Kooy, Christoph Prégardien and Klaus Mertens.


----------



## wkasimer

JSBach85 said:


> Yesterday I finally ordered Suzuki recording. Your list is very appealing to me, the recordings I own are: Leonhardt, Butt, Herreweghe and Harnoncourt. I am a big fan of Veldhoven recordings and I have the Magnificat, St. John Passion and Christmas Oratorio but I have not still listened any of the Matthew Passion recordings (as far as I know, there are two recordings, the first one with Andreas Scholl). The same with Koopman, there are two recordings, I would be more interested in the first one, with Guy de Mey, Peter Kooy, Christoph Prégardien and Klaus Mertens.


I prefer the second Veldhoven recording; ditto for Koopman. BTW, if you're interested in HIP Bach Saint Matthews, don't neglect Hermann Max's recording:

https://www.amazon.com/St-Matthews-Passion-Hermann-Max/dp/B000001WW0


----------



## JSBach85

wkasimer said:


> I prefer the second Veldhoven recording; ditto for Koopman.[/url]


I append your suggestions for the future. Thank you very much!.


----------



## Marc

JSBach85 said:


> Sorry for the ignorance... I read a lot of comments concerning "Gardiner" recording but which one do you like?
> 
> Gardiner recording (1989)
> 
> [...]
> 
> Gardiner live recording (2017)
> 
> [...]
> 
> Thank you in advance.


Whilst I like Gardiner's dynamic approach of the Johannes-Passion (both recordings), I'm not that fond of his Matthäus-Passion readings, although I find the 2nd one (live) far more... uhm 'homogeneous', so to speak. I've always considered the 1989 as a 'miss'. It seems as if Gardiner wanted to approach the more completative Matthäus as if the were as extravert as the Johannes-Passion. IMO, it didn;t work. Some of my favourite movements (a.o. "So ist mein Jesus nun gefangen", "O Mensch, bewein dein Sünde groß") sound completely flat to me.

The 2017 issue is far from my favourite SMP either, but, despite all the great names in the 1989 recording, I'm much happier with the recent live recording.


----------



## DavidA

I happened to pick up a set of Karajan's recording form the 1990s with a stella cast of soloists (not always recorded to best advantage) and a superlative evangelist own Schreier. I was first of all a bit put off by how slow and old fashioned it sounded but the sheer beauty of it has won me over. Of course, not the only way of doing it but a wonderful listen


----------



## Reichstag aus LICHT

hpowders said:


> I usually like some HIP Bach, but for the choral works and cantatas, Karl Richter and the Munich Bach Chior and Orchestra are the finest.


Richter was OK, but for me his contemporary Karl Münchinger produced far more compelling accounts of the passions and Christmas Oratorio, and Münchinger's _St Matthew Passion_ is my favourite non-HIP recording of the work; the cast assembled by Decca could hardly be bettered, and the recording quality is excellent. (A small point of detail: I've yet to find another recording where the _ripieno_ trebles' "Erbarm' dich unser, o Jesu", combined with the double-choirs' "Holz zum Kreuze selber tragen" was so overwhelmingly moving. Just remembering it sends shivers up my spine.)


----------



## howlingfantods

DavidA said:


> I happened to pick up a set of Karajan's recording form the 1990s


That's quite an accomplishment.


----------



## hpowders

DavidA said:


> I happened to pick up a set of Karajan's recording form the 1990s with a stella cast of soloists (not always recorded to best advantage) and a superlative evangelist own Schreier. I was first of all a bit put off by how slow and old fashioned it sounded but the sheer beauty of it has won me over. Of course, not the only way of doing it but a wonderful listen


Pretty neat trick, since Karajan died in 1989.


----------



## Pugg

DavidA said:


> I happened to pick up a set of Karajan's recording form the 1990s with a stella cast of soloists (not always recorded to best advantage) and a superlative evangelist own Schreier. I was first of all a bit put off by how slow and old fashioned it sounded but the sheer beauty of it has won me over. Of course, not the only way of doing it but a wonderful listen


Great set, I always coming back to that one. 
( And no, I am not making jokes a about a typo,)


----------



## DavidA

hpowders said:


> Pretty neat trick, since Karajan died in 1989.


That of course explains the other-worldly feel about the performance!


----------



## hpowders

wkasimer said:


> Hertha Töpper notwithstanding....


Yeah. There were other singers who could surely Töpp her. But after all, she was 3.7 on the Richter scale.


----------



## Granate

Posted in a HIP thread a month ago:



Granate said:


> [...] HIP has not made me throw the Romantic era away at all. I still prefer it. Since I listened last year to the John Eliot Gardiner recordings of late Mozart symphonies for Philips (I need to visit the Pinnock ones) I was fully in love with the presence of the deep strings and timpani. Nothing can compare.
> 
> That isn't the case in Bach. I think modern instruments still do it justice. My favourite Matthäus-Passion is the Harnoncourt Lamb CD, closely followed by the Karajan operatic recording. However, I must argue that the Harnoncourt instruments here do not sound to Baroque at all, probably the conducting style.


I'm just hoping that one day DG releases a cheap box of the Karajan recording.
I add that I also like Herreweghe DHM and Klemperer WC, and *dislike* Gardiner Archiv.


----------



## howlingfantods

My vote is for the Klemperer, I suppose. 

To me, HIP performances of this work are comically, gruesomely wrong. Fleet, light, dance-like, lively is the opposite of what I think Bach was going for. When I listen to HIPster Matthews, I hear something that could be played as background music at a gallery or a fancy café.

Unlike many musical works, I think it's very clear what the emotional impact that Bach was going for here, because he tells you in the accompanying text. The opening chorus tells us we've come to lament the death of He who is like a lamb. We are to consider our guilt for the cross, his slaughter, and beg for his mercy. Our hearts should be swimming in tears, and by the end, we are so remorseful that we have to sit down with tears, and call on him to rest. This music should not sound like something that is a light listen and can be played at a dinner party without bumming everyone out.

Leaving aside technical questions of choir sizes and vibrato or non vibrato, when I think of which recordings make me most emotionally shattered by the end, all the HIPster versions fail completely. They are an easy listen, a good soundtrack for a wine and cheese party, and are as emotionally wrenching as a Haydn string quartet. 

As wrong technically as Romantic performance practices may have been, I suspect they get a lot closer to the emotional color and impact Bach would endorse. I'd vote for the Furtwangler if he hadn't left out huge sections of the work. 

So I opt for the Klemperer, the most devastating full recording I know of. Not a "Romantic" (despite HIPsters calling him one along with everyone predating the HIPster movement), but he gets the emotional weight right.


----------



## Pugg

> I'm just hoping that one day DG releases a cheap box of the Karajan recording.
> I add that I also like Herreweghe DHM and Klemperer WC, and dislike Gardiner Archiv.


That beautiful gold box, are you kidding us?


----------



## Granate

Pugg said:


> That beautiful gold box, are you kidding us?


Is it a golden box? Worthy of 30€?

(I acknowledge we are not the same buying animals)


----------



## Pugg

Granate said:


> Is it a golden box? Worthy of 30€?
> 
> (I acknowledge we are not the same buying animals)


https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/offer-l...=12734&creativeASIN=B000001G8G&condition=used

This is less then the amount you mentioned.


----------



## Granate

Pugg said:


> https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/offer-l...=12734&creativeASIN=B000001G8G&condition=used
> 
> This is less then the amount you mentioned.


I had been all this morning tempted to buy or a new box for 25€ or an old box for 10€ with your link. But if Ralph Moore says in Amazon that it needs a new remaster, I'd rather wait. Then, in a couple of hours, I don't want to buy it anymore.

I found my old MP challenge. I expected it to be more in-depth, but I could find it after the issue.



Granate said:


> *J.S. Bach*
> _Matthäus-Passion, BWV 244_
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sol. Nico van der Meel, Kristinn Sigmundsson, Maria Cristina Kiehr, Mona Julsrud, Claudia Schubert, Wilke te Brummelstroete, Ian Bostridge, Toby Spence, Peter Kooy, Harry van der Kamp
> *Cond. Hans Brüggen, O18thC, Phillips (1998)*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sol. Ian Bostridge, Franz-Josef Selig, Sibylla Rubens, Andreas Scholl, Werner Güra, Dietrich Henschel, Frits Vanhulle
> *Cond. Philippe Herreweghe, CVGC&O, Harmonia Mundi (1999)*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sol. Christoph Prégardien, Matthias Goerne, Christine Schäfer, Dorothea Röschmann, Bernarda Fink, Elisabeth von Magnus, Michael Schade, Markus Schäfer, Dietrich Henschel, Oliver Widmer
> *Cond. Nikolaus Harnoncourt, CMW, WSK, ASC; WC (2001)*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sol. Anthony Rolfe-Johnson, Andreas Schmidt, Barbara Bonney, Ann Monoyios, Anne Sophie von Otter, Michael Chance, Howard Crook, Olaf Bär, Cornelius Hauptmann, Ruth Holton, Gillian Ross
> Monteverdi Choir & London Oratory Junior Choir
> *Cond. John Eliot Gardiner, EBS, Archiv-DG (1989)*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sol. Peter Pears, Dietrich Fischer-Dieskau, Elisabeth Schwarzkopf, Christa Ludwig, Nicolai Gedda, Walter Berry, John Carol Case, Walter Berry, Otakar Kraus, Heather Harper, Helen Watts, Geraint Evans, Wilfred Brown
> Boys of the Hampstead Parish Church Choir
> * Cond. Otto Klemperer, PO&C, WC (1961/2001 Remastered Edition)*
> 
> _It was a long time since I listened to this exhaustive work by Bach. I had to write a long project and then I turned on this work on the speakers with *Karajan*'s Operatic version. I actually liked it, but I wanted to know if there was any HIP recording that would be better. *Gardiner* was surprisingly the weakest contender, not even with the Monteverdi Choir. *Brüggen* did not make any mistake with the choice of soloists but the instruments sounded really harsh. My top three listenings were then *Klemperer*, with an ominous lenght but lovely and solemn choruses, *Herreweghe*'s account for Harmonia Mundi, excelling in almost the same as Klemperer but with Period instruments, and finaly my chosen recording is *Harnoncourt*'s for Teldec/WC, even if he may sound like he is cheating with modern instruments. I dot think Bach's music should be restrained and this is a magnificient result._


----------



## DavidA

howlingfantods said:


> My vote is for the Klemperer, I suppose.
> 
> To me, HIP performances of this work are comically, gruesomely wrong. Fleet, light, dance-like, lively is the opposite of what I think Bach was going for. When I listen to HIPster Matthews, I hear something that could be played as background music at a gallery or a fancy café.
> 
> Unlike many musical works, I think it's very clear what the emotional impact that Bach was going for here, because he tells you in the accompanying text. The opening chorus tells us we've come to lament the death of He who is like a lamb. We are to consider our guilt for the cross, his slaughter, and beg for his mercy. Our hearts should be swimming in tears, and by the end, we are so remorseful that we have to sit down with tears, and call on him to rest. This music should not sound like something that is a light listen and can be played at a dinner party without bumming everyone out.
> 
> So I opt for the Klemperer, the most devastating full recording I know of. Not a "Romantic" (despite HIPsters calling him one along with everyone predating the HIPster movement), but he gets the emotional weight right.


The problem you have is of course that Bach uses some dance forms in the St. Matthew Passion: Siciliano, Menuet, Sarabande, etc.. which is anything but a dance in Klemperer's recording. I do find K deathly slow I must say even though he is admired by many. The other thing is that the setting is a drama not just a lamentation. The music should be dramatic as well as meditative.
I am perhaps fortunate in that I can enjoy different styles. I have Karajan, Richter, Herreweghe I, Harnoncourt (II), Jacobs and Gardiner. I find things to enjoy in them all. This is, after all, one of the greatest musical and artistic and spiritual works ever written by a man!


----------



## Animal the Drummer

With respect I don't see that first point as a problem. Dance forms provide a starting point for the development of much Baroque music without anyone necessarily envisaging that the music in question would accompany actual dancing. I do agree that Klemperer can take things too far towards the other end of the spectrum at times at the expense of some of the piece's inherent drama, but sooner that any day of the week than a fundamentalist HIP approach which fails/refuses to tell the story as well as play the notes.


----------



## Bulldog

howlingfantods said:


> Unlike many musical works, I think it's very clear what the emotional impact that Bach was going for here, because he tells you in the accompanying text. The opening chorus tells us we've come to lament the death of He who is like a lamb. We are to consider our guilt for the cross, his slaughter, and beg for his mercy. Our hearts should be swimming in tears, and by the end, we are so remorseful that we have to sit down with tears, and call on him to rest. This music should not sound like something that is a light listen and can be played at a dinner party without bumming everyone out.
> 
> Leaving aside technical questions of choir sizes and vibrato or non vibrato, when I think of which recordings make me most emotionally shattered by the end, all the HIPster versions fail completely. They are an easy listen, a good soundtrack for a wine and cheese party, and are as emotionally wrenching as a Haydn string quartet.


I find the 1st Herreweghe set on Harmonia Mundi to offer the most emotionally wrenching opening chorus. Your contention that all HIP versions fail the emotional test is something that does not line up with my reactions to the music.


----------



## wkasimer

> when I think of which recordings make me most emotionally shattered by the end, all the HIPster versions fail completely.


Have you heard "all the HIPster versions"? Somehow, I doubt that - so which ones *have* you heard?


----------



## howlingfantods

wkasimer said:


> Have you heard "all the HIPster versions"? Somehow, I doubt that - so which ones *have* you heard?


That's fair. I've heard the Herreweghe, the Gardiner, the Harnoncourt, the Koopman, the Kuijken. Do you think there's another HIPster version I've missed out on that might better appeal to my sensibilities?



> Bulldog:
> I find the 1st Herreweghe set on Harmonia Mundi to offer the most emotionally wrenching opening chorus. Your contention that all HIP versions fail the emotional test is something that does not line up with my reactions to the music.





> Me:
> when I think of which recordings make me most emotionally shattered by the end, all the HIPster versions fail completely


As usual, whenever I opine on the virtues of any recording or musician, I am solely describing my personal experience.


----------



## wkasimer

howlingfantods said:


> That's fair. I've heard the Herreweghe, the Gardiner, the Harnoncourt, the Koopman, the Kuijken. Do you think there's another HIPster version I've missed out on that might better appeal to my sensibilities?


You've hit most of the better known versions, although I believe that Herreweghe, Gardiner, Harnoncourt, and Koopman have all recorded the work at least twice. Among these, I prefer the first Herreweghe. Of those you don't list, you might want to try Rene Jacobs recent recording, or Veldhoven's second recording. I like John Butt's with the Dunedin Consort on Linn, but I suspect that will be too minimalist for your taste.

Just curious - if you've heard it, what do you think of Rilling's recording on Hanssler?


----------



## howlingfantods

wkasimer said:


> You've hit most of the better known versions, although I believe that Herreweghe, Gardiner, Harnoncourt, and Koopman have all recorded the work at least twice. Among these, I prefer the first Herreweghe. Of those you don't list, you might want to try Rene Jacobs recent recording, or Veldhoven's second recording. I like John Butt's with the Dunedin Consort on Linn, but I suspect that will be too minimalist for your taste.
> 
> Just curious - if you've heard it, what do you think of Rilling's recording on Hanssler?


In general, if I don't like someone's first version, I'll rarely check out their second  I believe that most of the ones I listed are their first recordings.

I don't believe I've heard the Rilling. I've heard some of his cantatas and the Magnificat and was a little underwhelmed, and never sought out his other Bach afterwards.

One point of clarity--it is not that I just like non-HIP versions, I'm not that fond of the Karajan, I vacillate on the Scherchen from moment to moment, and strongly dislike the Mengelberg. K Richter... I like his 1958 version, I've not heard the others. I tend to like not love his Bach.

I'll put the Jacobs and Veldhoven on my shopping list, thanks for the suggestions.


----------



## wkasimer

howlingfantods said:


> I don't believe I've heard the Rilling. I've heard some of his cantatas and the Magnificat and was a little underwhelmed, and never sought out his other Bach afterwards.


I've been underwhelmed by much of his Bach, too - but he's considerably more animated in the large scale choral works, and his St. Matthew has the advantage of a superb group of soloists.



> One point of clarity--it is not that I just like non-HIP versions, I'm not that fond of the Karajan, I vacillate on the Scherchen from moment to moment, and strongly dislike the Mengelberg. K Richter... I like his 1958 version, I've not heard the others. I tend to like not love his Bach.


I think that we largely agree on most of these. I heard the Karajan for the first time just a few weeks ago, and thought it was awful on many levels. I do like the Scherchen, but I wish that his chorus was better. I can't stand the Mengelberg, either, and the 1958 Richter is (IMO, of course) among the most overrated recordings of anything, ever.


----------



## JSBach85

What I completely dislike is those large/numerous/big choirs, because aside they are completely inaccurate, obscures the Bach polyphony and the sound of instruments, completely necessary to appreciate the counterpoint in Bach works. Being honest, it's not really important for me to listen or not OVPP Bach, what is more important for me is the balance between vocal forces and number of instruments so at least for me numbers do matter. I am usually happy with just 1 to 4 voices per part and a number of instruments accordingly.


----------



## JSBach85

I have the second recording of Herreweghe but I am tempted with the first one as well as I saw it at good price. I am not sure if this one is the first Herreweghe recording:










What is your opinion about it?


----------



## JSBach85

Two weeks ago I got this box set containing Matthew Passion, St. John Passion and Mass in B minor of Koopman / Amsterdam Baroque Orchestra, at a very good price, nice bargain.










So far I have 10 Matthew Passion recordings: Herreweghe (1st), Herreweghe (2nd), Butt/Dunedin Consort, Harnoncourt, Suzuki, Gardiner (1st), Veldhoven (2nd), Leonhardt, McCreesh, Koopman. I noticed that Koopman lacks of passion , energy, details in some of his recordings, not only for vocal works but also for instrumental works. I feel this is the case of his first recording of Matthew Passion, I wonder how well he conducted his second recording. I liked it but I rather prefer Veldhoven, Suzuki, Herreweghe and Butt over Koopman.


----------



## Guest

I just bought Klemperer's version in a 3-cd boxed set on EMI Classics with a nice thick booklet. Ripping it right now. I also have borrowed Richter's version in DVD but I haven't watched it yet. I will do so over the weekend. It's about two hours long.


----------



## Bulldog

JSBach85 said:


> I have the second recording of Herreweghe but I am tempted with the first one as well as I saw it at good price. I am not sure if this one is the first Herreweghe recording:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What is your opinion about it?


It is his first and my most treasured St. Matthew set.


----------



## Star

JSBach85 said:


> I have the second recording of Herreweghe but I am tempted with the first one as well as I saw it at good price. I am not sure if this one is the first Herreweghe recording:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What is your opinion about it?


Certainly very good. Not heard the later one


----------



## SenaJurinac

Maybe an interesting peformances for comparison (also for the location). Not too big choruses too.

Two from Tchaikovsky Concert Hall in Moscow, first with Munich Bach Сhoir and Moscow Chamber Orchestra conducted by Hans-Jörg Albrecht, second with the Bach Ensemble Helmuth Rilling (Helmuth Rilling conducting):

http://klassikundopern.web.tv/video/hansjorg-albrecht-dirigiert-bach-matthuspassionst-matthew-passion-bwv-244-moscow-2016__ksm9i7qhayo

http://klassikundopern.web.tv/video/helmuth-rilling-dirigiert-bach-matthuspassionst-matthew-passion-bwv-244-moscow-2014__kt5fe5rtnko


----------



## Zeus

I'm baffled, after 174 pages, I haven't come across a single mention of Reinbert de Leeuw. I will just post this, should be enough to convince most.


----------



## premont

Zeus said:


> I'm baffled, after 174 pages, I haven't come across a single mention of Reinbert de Leeuw. I will just post this, should be enough to convince most.


Does any available recording (CD, DVD) of the complete St. Matthew passion with de Leeuw exist? If not, this may be the reason why he is little known outside Holland in the role of Bach conductor.


----------



## Zeus

premont said:


> Does any available recording (CD, DVD) of the complete St. Matthew passion with de Leeuw exist? If not, this may be the reason why he is little known outside Holland in the role of Bach conductor.


I found this link https://www.brunoklassiek.nl/en/bach-matthaus-passion-reinbert-de-leeuw?___from_store=nl

Also, in the same video, the channel owner posted this link: https://winkel.vpro.nl/de-matthaus-passion-box/

which seems to be the same DVD.


----------



## JSBach85

Bach's passions are among my favourite sacred works ever composed but I still feel uncomfortable to not being able to find a final solution to the problem of the correct choir size. What we know with absolute certainty is how Bach's passions must not be performed, since there is a maximum number of singers Bach had according to surviving texts. Summarizing, there are two theories based on Entwurff:

Arnold Schering, 1930s: Schering supports three to four voices per part, according to his interpretation of Entwurff: "_A choir must have at least three singers per part so that a double-choir motet can still be sung even if one of them is ill_". Even before Schering's theory, in 19th century, the Lowell Institute in 1886-1887 claimed: "_Bach's choir could not have numbered more than twelve or sixteen voices, for it is hardly possible for more than three or four singers to read at once from the same sheet_". So we know is highly unlikely that Bach had more than 16 singers available.

Joshua Rifkin, 1981: Rifkin theory has another interpretation of Entwurff: The instructions which emanate from Bach himself say: "_A choir must have at least three singers per part so that a double-choir motet can still be sung even if one of them is ill_" - i.e. a double-choir motet was sung by eight soloists, and Bach's demands refer to the total of disposable singers, not to the actual number of performers. In short terms, only a soloist read from the same sheet.

We know then that it was not possible that cantatas and passions had more than 3 to 4 singers to a part but we still don't know how Bach could have used his available vocal forces since all the arguments of each theory are not completely proved to be right.

Therefore, for St. John and St. Matthew Passion I opted to have recordings based on the two theories, however, not all the historically informed performance recordings are well balanced since some of them slightly exceed the allowed vocal forces opting for 5 voices per part. Regarding St. Matthew Passion, I finally got the remaining OVPP recording:

Kuijken / La Petite Bande









Similar to McCreesh and Butt recordings, Kuijken uses only seven singers using OVPP theory. The orchestra is large enough to accommodate those vocal forces. The sound is noticeable clearer with less performers and the sound quality is certainly excellent. The soloists are not up among the best, being not as good as John Butt, Suzuki, Herreweghe and other recordings and conducting lack of brightness and contrast. In the other hand, tempi and technical execution are excellent. The academic value of this recording is probably the best feature.

There are lots of good recordings of St Matthew Passion and for that reason I am not able to say a favourite.


----------



## Granate

sorry. wrong thread.


----------



## 13hm13

Interesting vlog post [Otto Klemperer: Closer to Bach Than We Think?] on YouTube today (28 March, 2018) that compares Klemperer (and Bruno Kittel) to Koopman, concentrating on tempo. Koopman is faster ... but better/worse?






I will agree with the vlogger that Klemperer's interpretation is superior.


----------



## Pugg

​
This one is on it's way, I am sure it's going end up high in my top5


----------



## wkasimer

Pugg said:


> ​
> This one is on it's way, I am sure it's going end up high in my top5


I listened to it again a few days ago - even better than I remembered.


----------



## Pugg

*Matthaus Passion* Jos van Veldhoven, Nederlandse Bachvereniging. 2014.

Friday this conductor did it for the 35th year in Naarden, even the prime minister is going each year, if whoever it is likes Bach/ classical.


----------



## starthrower

Klemperer sounds awful lush and romantic. Doing some comparisons on the intro I noticed how it's all sustain with Klemperer, but other conductors like Gardiner and Harnoncourt emphasize the rhythmic pulse. I don't know much about this music. Is there a consensus on a correct approach? I prefer it to sound more baroque.

...Meanwhile, I'm liking the Herreweghe with Ian Bostridge, ect.


----------



## Brahmsianhorn

I can’t understand why Jochum does not get mentioned more. It is absolutely gorgeous. My two favorites are Mengelberg and Furtwängler, but definitely in modern sound I think Jochum is the one to go for.

Curiously, considering my tastes, I have never warmed to the Klemperer. It sounds plodding and unnuanced to my ears.

For HIP I prefer Herreweghe. Gardiner’s version for me lacks solemnity.

But for anyone new to the St Matthew I would recommend Jochum without reservation.


----------



## Josquin13

Brahmsianhorn writes, "I can't understand why Jochum does not get mentioned more. It is absolutely gorgeous."

Jochum is a favorite conductor of mine, too. Yet, as I recall, back in the 1980s, when I first began to discover classical music, I asked a composer friend of mine (& notable teacher of composition), which conductor or conductors he'd most recommend for Bach's choral works? At the time there were no period recordings of the choral works in the catalogue (as Gardiner's hadn't arrived yet), and to my surprise, he replied there wasn't a single recording that he could recommend. I remember asking him about Jochum at the time--whose Brahms, Bruckner, & Beethoven he'd thought highly of--& he replied that Jochum's Bach was "beautiful", but that his "conducting style" was "all wrong for Bach". When I pressed him further, he eventually ended up recommending Peter Schreier's 1st recording of the Mass in B minor on Eurodisc (now Berlin Classics), stating that Schreier had a better understanding of Baroque style than Jochum. (At the time, Schreier hadn't started his Bach choral series for Philips.)

Since then, Schreier has became one of my go-to conductors for Bach choral music, and is usually a top choice among modern instrument versions. However, I prefer his two excellent Mass in B minor recordings and Christmas Oratorio to his St. Matthew Passion.






Listening to Jochum's St. Matthew Passion today for the first time in many years, it is very beautiful, I agree, but stylistically, I agree with my friend that it's often too slow & overly romantic in parts. Surely Bach shouldn't be conducted as if he were Brahms? Granted, the soloists are first rate, & better than what you often get today...:






Unfortunately, I don't really have a favorite recording of the St. Matthew Passion. On the period front, I agree with others that Herreweghe's two recordings are good: 



 and https://www.amazon.com/Bach-J-S-St-...6QAVMDM5DFM&psc=1&refRID=01WPG11336QAVMDM5DFM: with a slight preference for his second recording. If nothing else, Herreweghe consistently hires first rate singers on his Bach recordings. Though his soft-hued, rather feminine approach to Bach can leave me less than enthusiastic at times (as I tend to prefer my Bach to be more dynamic, incisive & transparent). I've also liked Veldhoven's recording in the past, but the last time I listened to it, I thought his tempi were too fast in places. I had a similar (but stronger) reaction to Paul McCreesh's Archiv recording. John Butt & the Dunedin Consort are very good too, but maybe a bit underpowered in the chorus, in parts (though brilliantly sung).

I suppose if I were forced to pick four period recordings that I could most get behind, I'd choose Nikolaus Harnoncourt's two St. Matthew Passions, Ton Koopman's 2nd live recording, and Butt's contrapuntally vivid OVPP performance on Linn hybrid SACD. For me, Harnoncourt had a special affinity for this work. I'm slightly partial to his pioneering 1970 recording, the one with boy soloists, instead of sopranos--though admittedly they carry with them a different set of problems (from professional singers). Nor am I always keen on Harnoncourt's tendency to over stress dynamic accents. So, I guess I'm still waiting for a St. Matthew Passion recording that I can totally rave about.

Harnoncourt 1--










Harnoncourt 2--









Koopman's performance can be watched on You Tube:









https://www.amazon.com/Matthew-Pass...&sr=1-3&keywords=ton+koopman+bach+st.+matthew

John Butt, Dunedin Consort: 




Among today's Bach conductors, I'd say Eric Milnes is the most likely to do a magnificent recording of the St. Matthew Passion--one that I could rave about--that is, if his energies weren't so focused on his present brilliant, landmark OVPP Bach cantata series, with Montreal Baroque. Another might be Philippe Pierlot and the Ricercar Consort.

I've not yet heard Rene Jacobs recording, which has received good reviews (although I wasn't entirely crazy about Jacobs' Mass in B minor).










My two cents.


----------



## Brahmsianhorn

If Jochum’s Bach is wrong, I don’t want to be right


----------



## DavidA

starthrower said:


> *Klemperer sounds awful lush and romantic.* Doing some comparisons on the intro I noticed how it's all sustain with Klemperer, but other conductors like Gardiner and Harnoncourt emphasize the rhythmic pulse. I don't know much about this music. Is there a consensus on a correct approach? I prefer it to sound more baroque.
> 
> ...Meanwhile, I'm liking the Herreweghe with Ian Bostridge, ect.


The whole problem with the Klemperer approach is that Bach's music is based on dances. The opening chorus is a Saraband. No way at Klemperer's tempo could anyone dance to it. Bach's music is rhythmical. If you want a more 'traditional' approach try Karl Richter in 1958


----------



## Brahmsianhorn

DavidA said:


> The whole problem with the Klemperer approach is that Bach's music is based on dances. The opening chorus is a Saraband. No way at Klemperer's tempo could anyone dance to it. Bach's music is rhythmical. If you want a more 'traditional' approach try Karl Richter in 1958


Why would you dance to "Come ye daughters, join my lament?" The music is quite obviously meant to be grave, solemn and sad, and Klemperer's approach in conveying its message is at least on the right track if not as effective as Mengelberg or Furtwängler.


----------



## wkasimer

Brahmsianhorn said:


> I can't understand why Jochum does not get mentioned more.


Probably because it's been out of print and hard to find for three decades.

I agree that it's an excellent recording for those who prefer a non-HIP version, but if I'm in the mood for a modern orchestra, I usually turn to Rilling's Hanssler recording - it's less romanticized and just as well sung. Another unexpectedly fine version is Solti's.


----------



## DavidA

Brahmsianhorn said:


> Why would you dance to "Come ye daughters, join my lament?" The music is quite obviously meant to be grave, solemn and sad, and Klemperer's approach in conveying its message is at least on the right track if not as effective as Mengelberg or Furtwängler.


This is a misinterpretation of Bach's intentions that it should be slow. If course we don't dance to it but it is a dance rhythm. I recently heard of performance where it was taken very quickly and sung by the soloists with the choir joining in as the daughters of Jerusalem. It becomes an urgent call to come and share the experience of the passion. Into resting after the first half I remarked to the woman next door about the relatively quick tempi and she said what a change it was to have a dramatic performance of the passion 'after all the po-faced performances I gave heard.' The other problem is with the Klemperer approach is that the work becomes interminable at the slow tempi, especially if you're sitting through a performance of it . I don't believe Bach required that of his audience


----------



## Brahmsianhorn

DavidA said:


> This is a misinterpretation of Bach's intentions that it should be slow. If course we don't dance to it but it is a dance rhythm. I recently heard of performance where it was taken very quickly and sung by the soloists with the choir joining in as the daughters of Jerusalem. It becomes an urgent call to come and share the experience of the passion. Into resting after the first half I remarked to the woman next door about the relatively quick tempi and she said what a change it was to have a dramatic performance of the passion 'after all the po-faced performances I gave heard.' The other problem is with the Klemperer approach is that the work becomes interminable at the slow tempi, especially if you're sitting through a performance of it . I don't believe Bach required that of his audience


I purchased the Mengelberg in Munich 20 years ago. While sitting in the airport I popped it into my portable CD player, expecting just to sample it. I ended up listening to the entire thing, transfixed in a way I had never before been by the St Matthew. It had nothing to do with tempo. It was the emotional involvement of the performance that involved me. I owned the Gardiner but had never listened to it straight through. I refer to that story quite often whenever someone contends that faster tempos keep an audience more attuned. To the contrary, it is lack of emotional involvement that makes a performance interminable. For all his emphasis on the dance rhythms, I can't imagine sitting through an entire Gardiner performance of the St Matthew. Everything sounds the same and it becomes dull rather quickly. Mengelberg, on the other hand, now that is drama!


----------



## Ras

*Ricard Egarr and the AAM*

I've had little luck getting into Bach's Passions, but the closest I've gotten to appreciate them are Richard Egarr's recordings.


----------



## fluteman

Peter Pears (Evangelist)
Hermann Prey (Jesus)
Elly Ameling (soprano)
Martha Höffgen (alto)
Fritz Wunderlich (tenor)
Tom Krause (bass)

Stuttgart Hymnus-Chorknaben
Stuttgart Kammerorchester
Karl Münchinger

Recorded in Schloss Ludwigsburg, July 1964


----------



## Reichstag aus LICHT

DavidA said:


> This is a misinterpretation of Bach's intentions that it should be slow. If course we don't dance to it but it is a dance rhythm. I recently heard of performance where it was taken very quickly and sung by the soloists with the choir joining in as the daughters of Jerusalem. It becomes an urgent call to come and share the experience of the passion


Quite, and the urgency is implicit in the libretto. A composer of Bach's genius wouldn't have wanted such urgent exchanges as "Sehet! - Wen? - Den Bräutigam!" (etc) to have happened at a dragging pace. Since when were exhortations to "behold!" intoned in a non-urgent manner? Even "Kommt... helft mir klagen" is in the imperative, a call for action, not a lugubrious plea for sympathy.

Klemperer is far too stodgy, in my opinion. Overall I prefer the more recent HIP recordings - but Richter, as you suggest, is a good bet from a "traditional" perspective, although I marginally prefer Münchinger.


----------



## Brahmsianhorn

Reichstag aus LICHT said:


> Quite, and the urgency is implicit in the libretto. A composer of Bach's genius wouldn't have wanted such urgent exchanges as "Sehet! - Wen? - Den Bräutigam!" (etc) to have happened at a dragging pace. Since when were exhortations to "behold!" intoned in a non-urgent manner? Even "Kommt... helft mir klagen" is in the imperative, a call for action, not a lugubrious plea for sympathy.
> 
> Klemperer is far too stodgy, in my opinion. Overall I prefer the more recent HIP recordings - but Richter, as you suggest, is a good bet from a "traditional" perspective, although I marginally prefer Münchinger.


To the contrary - and I've performed this piece a few times - the slower tempo creates a better contrast with the urgent exclamations so that they stand out more. If the whole thing is fast, those moments lose their full effect. Listen to Mengelberg or Furtwängler.


----------



## Reichstag aus LICHT

Brahmsianhorn said:


> To the contrary - and I've performed this piece a few times - the slower tempo creates a better contrast with the urgent exclamations so that they stand out more. If the whole thing is fast, those moments lose their full effect. Listen to Mengelberg or Furtwängler.


I'd agree that taking the tempo _too_ fast would spoil the effect of this chorus, but there's limits! Klemperer is practically unbearable here, and it all falls apart for me.


----------



## Brahmsianhorn

Reichstag aus LICHT said:


> I'd agree that taking the tempo _too_ fast would spoil the effect of this chorus, but there's limits! Klemperer is practically unbearable here, and it all falls apart for me.


I agree on Klemperer, actually. As someone who rates Mengelberg, Furtwängler, and Jochum as my three favorite versions, it is surprisingly to me that so many swear by the Klemperer. It really is plodding and kinda boring. My prime recommendation to people is the Jochum. Beautiful but not plodding.


----------



## Mandryka

Does anyone know why Furtwangler's MTP is so cut?

It's so long since I've given this music any attention -- years and years since I last heard all of it. That would be a good new year's resolution for me, to approach the MTP again.


----------



## DavidA

Just listening to McCreesh with only 8 singers. Not the only way but fascinating


----------



## wkasimer

Mandryka said:


> Does anyone know why Furtwangler's MTP is so cut?


The performance dates from a time when major cuts in large works were pretty common, a practice that is now thankfully much more rare.


----------



## DavidA

wkasimer said:


> The performance dates from a time when major cuts in large works were pretty common, a practice that is now thankfully much more rare.


Cuts possibly necessitated by some of the funereal speeds adopted in the past.


----------



## Mandryka

Sorry about MTP for the St Matthew Passion by the way -- that was unintended. It reminds me of once when I abbreviated the Concertgebouw as CGB and someone who speaks Dutch told me that this was just ridiculous!

Right, so people just made cuts in the mid 1950s like that. In fact I rather what he does with the music at the end, from _Am Abend, da es kuhle war_ -- someone once told me that this is what was played at his funeral, I don't know if it's true or not.


----------



## tdc

I can appreciate different approaches to Bach, but my favorite version is Herreweghe's 1984 recording. In general I think the HIP movement has been pretty successful when it comes to Baroque music, and I tend to lean towards that approach though not exclusively.


----------



## 89Koechel

to Brahmsianhorn -> (Mengelberg) - Yes, the Dutchman could sometimes have that EFFECT on a listener; the best of his recordings can be engrossing, and it would be somewhat difficult to argue that the Concertgebouw of his time was NOT at it's greatest, even w/o the benefit of Stereo, multi-channel microphones, etc. There are very good REASONS why the legacies of Mengelberg & Furtwangler … specifically in the SMP (and other repertoire, of course) … have stood the test of time.


----------



## 89Koechel

BTW, there was a widely-lauded (in High Fidelity, and/or Stereo Review) St. Matthew Passion, in the hands of Karl Richter/DGG … decades-ago. It included Irmgard Seefried, Dietrich F-D, plus the Munich musicians - does anyone know about it, or has anyone listened to it?


----------



## wkasimer

89Koechel said:


> BTW, there was a widely-lauded (in High Fidelity, and/or Stereo Review) St. Matthew Passion, in the hands of Karl Richter/DGG … decades-ago. It included Irmgard Seefried, Dietrich F-D, plus the Munich musicians - does anyone know about it, or has anyone listened to it?


Sure. It's been available almost continuously during the CD era, in several incarnations.

It's a pretty commonly recommended recording, but I don't care for it. It has nothing to do with its lack of HIP-ness. I just don't hear much drama in Richter's conducting, and his soloists are pretty variable. The worst, unfortunately, is mezzo Hertha Töpper, and the mezzo has a lot of very important singing in the St. Matthew; her "Erbarme dich" leaves a big hole in the performance.

Perversely, I actually prefer the recording Richter made in 1979, shortly before he died, for its stronger soloists, particularly Janet Baker, who has everything that Töpper lacks.


----------



## DavidA

89Koechel said:


> BTW, there was a widely-lauded (in High Fidelity, and/or Stereo Review) St. Matthew Passion, in the hands of Karl Richter/DGG … decades-ago. It included Irmgard Seefried, Dietrich F-D, plus the Munich musicians - does anyone know about it, or has anyone listened to it?


This was the version that introduced me to the St Matthew years ago. Richter is far more vital than in his later version (in which his speeds are slower and he also uses distracting harpsichord) and D F-D is in superb voice in the bass arias and Haeflinger as the evangelist. Heaflinger actually sings the tenor arias too and although the women are not so good they are adequate. I have it on CD but would advise a listen to the approach (which was the more vital of the old fashioned type of approaches) before purchase.


----------



## 89Koechel

-> Bill Kasimer & DavidA - Thanks, and looks like there are two, very-DIFFERENT characterizations of what Richter achieved; i.e., Bill much-prefers the later Richter, and conversely, DavidA prefers the earlier one! It's a shame to hear that Ms. Topper was disappointing; from what I remember of her reputation, she usually rated high marks (although can't remember the sources of them). …. Thus, I suppose when we consider MODERN recordings, there's not a clear-cut favorite? … since WM and WF, of the oldest ones, deserve a place of their own?


----------



## 89Koechel

Well, BTW, am a bit of a "newcomer" to this entire site - so, has there, in the past, been any discussions 'bout Bach's "St. John Passion"? It was a while (yeah, a LONG one, haha) ago, that I bought the old Seraphim set, with Karl Forster and the very-remarkable, but short-lived tenor - Fritz Wunderlich.


----------



## wkasimer

89Koechel said:


> -> Bill Kasimer & DavidA - Thanks, and looks like there are two, very-DIFFERENT characterizations of what Richter achieved; i.e., Bill much-prefers the later Richter, and conversely, DavidA prefers the earlier one!


I should tell you, though, that I don't know anyone else who prefers the later Richter recording. I know a number of people who aren't particularly fond of the earlier one, but that doesn't mean that they prefer the later. There was actually another Richter recording made between those two, but it's never been widely available outside of Japan. I heard it once and remember little about it, except that I culled it shortly afterwards.



> Thus, I suppose when we consider MODERN recordings, there's not a clear-cut favorite?


Certainly not for work of the scope of the St. Matthew. But if you're looking for a modern instrument recording in good sound, you might consider Rilling's Hanssler recording or Solti's on Decca. Another one I like is Corboz's - I find it a bit tame, but the soloists are really fantastic.



> since WM and WF, of the oldest ones, deserve a place of their own?


Yes, but I'd never recommend either to someone who doesn't already own several versions,


----------



## wkasimer

If anyone is interested in a cheap copy of Rilling's recording...

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Bach-St-Matthew-Passion-BVW-244-Rilling-3-CDs-w-68-Trks/401679830940


----------



## DavidA

89Koechel said:


> -> Bill Kasimer & DavidA - Thanks, and looks like there are two, very-DIFFERENT characterizations of what Richter achieved; i.e., Bill much-prefers the later Richter, and conversely, DavidA prefers the earlier one! It's a shame to hear that Ms. Topper was disappointing; from what I remember of her reputation, she usually rated high marks (although can't remember the sources of them). …. Thus, I suppose when we consider MODERN recordings, there's not a clear-cut favorite? … since WM and WF, of the oldest ones, deserve a place of their own?


Topper us a bit plummy I must say. Baker is far the best singer


----------



## NLAdriaan

Koopman's last is my preferred recording but to me, Koopman is go-to in Bach anyhow, so I am certainly biased.


----------



## Lever Du Jour

The one excelently conducted by Reginald Jacques, sung in English:
https://music.apple.com/gb/album/bach-st-matthew-passion/500153963


----------



## Rogerx

My dessert island set.


----------



## DavidA

Rogerx said:


> My dessert island set.


Not to take on a desert island but if you like the romantic approach it has some wonderful singing. The recording should be remastered, however.


----------



## DavidA

Just thinking of the versions I have of what I consider one of the greatest of all works of music ever written:









Version that introduced me to the work. Richter at his best in traditional version before he got too lugubrious









Romantic version of the work as Karajan used to conduct on Good Friday. Indulgence









Superb singing but feel Gardiner just misses out on the spiritual dimension somewhat









Very fine first version from Herreweghe









Harnoncourt puts a lifetimes experience into the work - might be the best all-round bet?

Continued next post...........


----------



## DavidA

View attachment 127896


Jacobs brings usual insights in highly dramatic and controversially recorded version

View attachment 127897


One per part. I thought I would hate this but it really comes off with very brisk tempi and fabulous singing. Not the only way of doing it but must be heard.


----------



## Rik1

My favourite is the one directed by Rudolf Lutz on the JS Bach Stiftung label. It was released in 2014. It has thrilling but rich choruses and arias. I especially love the opening chorus.

But there's so many to choose from.


----------



## Guest

Thoughts on the latest Suzuki recording? Anybody heard it yet?


----------



## DavidA

Versions in my own library

The HIP versions:


----------



## DavidA

More traditional versions

















Each has something to say about this great work, with no-one having the final word.


----------



## NLAdriaan

If the virus:devil: allows, I will be visiting Trevor Pinnock conducting the Concertgebouw orchestra in St. Matthews Passion coming Easter. I look forward to it. Pinnock never recorded the piece as far as I know.


----------



## premont

NLAdriaan said:


> If the virus:devil: allows, I will be visiting Trevor Pinnock conducting the Concertgebouw orchestra in St. Matthews Passion coming Easter. I look forward to it. Pinnock never recorded the piece as far as I know.


Sounds extremely interesting. Hope it will not be cancelled.


----------



## wkasimer

DrMike said:


> Thoughts on the latest Suzuki recording? Anybody heard it yet?


Listening now on Spotify - excellent so far, although I wish that Suzuki hadn't used a countertenor...


----------



## Sad Al

At your peril, don't miss Peter Schreier's 1984 version, it features Lucia Popp


----------



## wkasimer

Bulldog said:


> My favorite St. Matthew is Herreweghe's first set on Harmonia Mundi - great drama, pacing and vocal contributions.


I'm listening to this one today - I haven't done so for at least fifteen years - and am reminded of just how great it is. Yes, it's HIP, but Herreweghe doesn't shortchange the drama and solemnity. While I normally dislike countertenors in this music, for some reason, I find Rene Jacobs less objectionable than most.

My only quibble is about production. Part One could have easily fit onto the first CD, and shouldn't have been broken up in the interest of making three roughly equal CD's timewise.

Highly recommended if you can find it. It seems to have been superceded by Herreweghe's second recording, which I don't like as much.


----------



## DavidA

wkasimer said:


> I'm listening to this one today - I haven't done so for at least fifteen years - and am reminded of just how great it is. Yes, it's HIP, but Herreweghe doesn't shortchange the drama and solemnity. While I normally dislike countertenors in this music, for some reason, I find Rene Jacobs less objectionable than most.
> 
> My only quibble is about production. Part One could have easily fit onto the first CD, and shouldn't have been broken up in the interest of making three roughly equal CD's timewise.
> 
> Highly recommended if you can find it. It seems to have been superceded by Herreweghe's second recording, which I don't like as much.


Yes I have this version too. Superb with Howard Crook sounding other-worldly as the evangelist. There are of course many ways of doing this work but this is one of the best


----------



## Marc

I wish this thread was merged with:

Recommend a St. Matthew Passion recording

Do you Bach and BWV 244 lovers agree?


----------



## wkasimer

Marc said:


> I wish this thread was merged with:
> 
> Recommend a St. Matthew Passion recording
> 
> Do you Bach and BWV 244 lovers agree?


Sure, if there's a way to do it....


----------



## Rogerx

Sad Al said:


> At your peril, don't miss Peter Schreier's 1984 version, it features Lucia Popp


I'll back you at this one .:cheers:


----------



## Marc

wkasimer said:


> Sure, if there's a way to do it....


I just sent Krummhorn a PM.


----------



## Simplicissimus

I've gotten along well with Gardiner's 1989 (actually recorded in 1988) version for almost 30 years. Fantastic choirs and I love Anne Sophie von Otter and Olaf Bär in particular. As I mentioned in the Baroque on Youtube thread, I recently found this amazing performance by the "Thomaner" (Thomanenchor) and Leipzig Gewandthaus:


----------



## ThaNotoriousNIC

The recording that I first listened to and still listen to is the Rene Jacobs recording from 2013. I like the sound quality and I think it is well conducted. I have never listened to an "old school" recording, but I am willing to give it a try. Here is my favorite part of the Passion from the Jacobs recording:






Sehet, Jesus hat die Hand,
See Jesus had stretched out his hands

Uns zu fassen, ausgespannt,
To embrace us,

Kommt! - Wohin? - in Jesu Armen
Come! - where? -in Jesus's arms

Sucht Erlösung, nehmt Erbarmen,
Seek redemption, receive mercy,

Suchet! - Wo? - in Jesu Armen.
Seek! - where? -in Jesus's arms.

Lebet, sterbet, ruhet hier,
Live, die, rest here,

Ihr verlass'nen Küchlein ihr,
You forsaken chicks,

Bleibet - Wo? - in Jesu Armen.
Remain -where? -in Jesus's arms.


----------



## gellio

Jacobs is my favorite, hands down.


----------



## PSchiefelbein

While it never gets mentioned, I grew up with Mogen Woldike’s 1959 recording on Vanguard. I have listened to many others since, but still go back to this. One of the first attempts at an historically informed performance, it uses small orchestral and choral forces. But these were some of the best players Vienna had to offer and their musicality is impeccable. The soloists are also among the best Vienna had to offer and sound deeply involved with the words they are singing. Woldike’s approach is an always flowing one which acknowledges the dance rhythms while making them subservient to the words. The sound is congested in the choruses but perfectly acceptable in the smaller scale pieces. It strikes a fine compromise between the old school and the new, and it was still available relatively cheaply on Amazon the last time I looked.


----------



## Bruckner Anton

Karl Richter 1958 on Archiv period.


----------



## Yabetz

I also vote for Richter's first recording and also Günther Ramin's recording from 1952.


----------



## mparta

Jacobs and Harnoncourt, I probably go to Harnoncourt more often but Jacobs is fantastic. I can't hear this anymore in the older practice performances, this is a place where the period orchestras and aesthetic really clinches it for me. And both Jacobs and Harnoncourt use such outstanding soloists-- Matthias Goerne for Harnoncourt, Christine Schafer, Bernarda Fink all match and for me outdo their predecessors.
Now this may have to come out today.


----------



## JTS

Done with modern instruments in very much period style and tempi. You could dance to the opening chorus! Some of the singing and playing brilliant.


----------



## Aragorn

I think the Richter/Munich is my favorite.

The transfer of the 1958 LPs to CDs was very nicely done; the sound is very clean yet rich. Richter controls the orchestral balances beautifully, noticeable especially in the _ff_ and _pp_ passages. His tempos seem to me, mostly just right. (Interesting variations in the several appearances of the Hassler tune.) The singing is terrific: Irmgard Seefried, Hertha Töpper, and of course, Fischer- Dieskau, the entire ensemble indeed seems in fine form. It's a dramatic performance by the cast, but not over-blown. I really have no quibbles with this recording; I play it more often than I do my Gardiner/Monteverdi. I have heard the Klemperer and Karajan renditions, each have their own charms.


----------



## Pyotr

I love the Royal Concertgebouw Orchestra's (RCO) YouTube video of St Matthew Passion. (It's without subtitles, I put English subtitles on the last eight minutes of it and put it here.)






I see that the BPO is offering a discount on their DVD version. I was going to get it then I looked at their website and it looks like it might be in opera format, which I don’t want, I want a concert format production like the RCO’s.

It includes the St John Passion too, which would be great. Here is their ad:

https://send.berliner-philharmonike...6EE9B58CF9565902762A482?alternativeLink=False

There isn’t a lot of info about the staging on that site only, “semi-staged productions.” I’m trying to find out just how operatic these productions are. I’m concerned that the staging might ruin it for me.

If anybody here has seen those DVDs , I would be much obliged if you could give us your opinion of the staging. 

Sorry if this has already been discussed here but I tried to search this sub-forum and didn’t have much luck.

Happy Easter everyone!


----------



## marlow

Thought I might write up on the thoughts on the recordings I have of this great masterpiece. Of course it is perhaps the greatest musical work ever written by a man so can be interpreted many ways. Styles have changed and I must confess I find Klemperer hopeless in his slowness in Bach where to trudge is fatal. 
The recording which introduced me to this piece 50 years ago was the 1958 one by Richter.










The fact that it’s still available says something for it. Vastly preferable to his slow remake, the tempi are slow by modern standards but vital. I must confess the female soloists leave something to be desired but the men are excellent with Haeflinger’s evangelist leading the way. The whole thing comes over as a vital devotional experience which is great. So dated but still relevant.


----------



## Reichstag aus LICHT

This recent release on Harmonia Mundi, by Raphaël Pichon and Pygmalion, is excellent. Whether it becomes my favourite remains to be seen, but it's certainly up there with the best. Fabulous soloists, with a nicely-paced performance from Pichon and the orchestra, which strikes a near-perfect balance between sheer musical beauty and drama.


----------



## marlow

This was the first Matthew Passion I bought on period instruments. It is still a pace setter today and was considered pretty revolutionary back then with its (then) brisk speeds and dramatic approach. I can remember the first time we heard the Monteverdi Choir live and were taken back by the power of the attack. This is all here with superb choral singing and great soloists. If there is a slight reservation it is the J-E G does not plumb the spiritual depths as obviously as some do. But all in all this is a magnificent achievement which still stands up to most of the competition


----------



## Pyotr

There's a new book out this year (my wife is reading it) from acclaimed bestselling author James Runcie, that tells a story of Bach's writing of the St. Matthew Passion. The book is an extension of a 2017 biographical play of the same name, by the same author. Just reading a book review of it, makes me anxious to see it. it sounds fantastic. 

Book review: The Great Passion, by James Runcie | The Scotsman


----------



## sAmUiLc

Mengelberg.. there is one good copy on Naxos.


----------



## marlow

For His second studio recording of this great work Harnoncourt sought to combine the scholarship of his HIP with the benefit of modern soloists. It really is superb without a single weakness. Space tend to be brisk but not hurried. The soloists are all first-rate. Obviously there are other ways of doing it but this is a good all-round version which will satisfy


----------



## Simon23

I was very glad to see such frequent references to Richter and Klemperer's recordings - they are still (especially, now) an example of the great tradition performed by Bach. But it surprises me that no one mentioned Furtwangler.










In my opinion, this record is not inferior in emotional impact.


----------



## marlow

Simon23 said:


> I was very glad to see such frequent references to Richter and Klemperer's recordings - they are still (especially, now) an example of the great tradition performed by Bach. But it surprises me that no one mentioned Furtwangler.
> 
> View attachment 172833
> 
> 
> In my opinion, this record is not inferior in emotional impact.


When you say ‘The great tradition performed by Bach’ I am assuming that you don’t mean that this was the way JSB would have performed his works?


----------



## Simon23

marlow said:


> When you say ‘The great tradition performed by Bach’ I am assuming that you don’t mean that this was the way JSB would have performed his works?


Of course not. No one can know how Bach himself would like to perform his works. I meant artistic expressiveness.


----------



## Simon23

Another outstanding record - with young, fantastic Fischer-Dieskau.


----------



## janwillemvanaalst

Personally, I prefer Harnoncourt 1970, but that's purely personal taste. There are so many brilliant recordings out there. 
On another personal note, I do feel that the St. Matthew is a typical example of, shall we say, an over-played work, kind of like "Sgt. Pepper's", "Dark side of the moon", and "Hotel California". All great works, but with a rather long, worn-out beard. I've found that there is so much top-notch-quality stuff out there by lesser-known composers that is at least as satisfying... Try for example the sacred choral works by Jan Dismas Zelenka (1679-1745), Bach's "catholic counterpart". I for one was pleasantly surprised when I discovered his works.


----------



## abrygida

Accordion version


----------



## Simon23

janwillemvanaalst said:


> Personally, I prefer Harnoncourt 1970, but that's purely personal taste. There are so many brilliant recordings out there.
> On another personal note, I do feel that the St. Matthew is a typical example of, shall we say, an over-played work, kind of like "Sgt. Pepper's", "Dark side of the moon", and "Hotel California". All great works, but with a rather long, worn-out beard. I've found that there is so much top-notch-quality stuff out there by lesser-known composers that is at least as satisfying... Try for example the sacred choral works by Jan Dismas Zelenka (1679-1745), Bach's "catholic counterpart". I for one was pleasantly surprised when I discovered his works.


I also listen to rock music)) and to some extent I can agree with the examples given. But not Passion. This is a truly great work and its popularity is absolutely deserved. As for Zelenka, he is a rather ordinary composer, which is quite strange to compare with Bach.


----------



## RICK RIEKERT

Simon23 said:


> As for Zelenka, he is a rather ordinary composer, which is quite strange to compare with Bach.


Zelenka is no Bach, but most of today's knowledgeable musicians regard Zelenka's music as anything but ordinary and agree with Bach and Telemann, both of whom admired Zelenka's music for its contrapuntal mastery and harmonic inventiveness. Heinz Holliger, the brilliant oboist and composer who has helped revive Zelenka’s music, makes an explicit comparison with Bach: “Zelenka (like Bach) obviously has absorbed the total compositional knowledge of the previous generations, and, by virtue of his most individual personality, exposes it to a breaking test, thus setting free a critical element opposing the tradition.”


----------



## Kreisler jr

I don't know the Lehmann but other historical recordings like the Furtwängler or even the Ramin (who would have been considered "historically informed" in the 40s and 50s and his St. John from the 50s holds up quite well) are literally "cut to shreds". They are missing many of my favorite pieces (I think Ramin includes the accompagnato "Am Abend da es kühle war" but cuts "Mache dich, mein Herze, rein" which is infuriating and makes these recordings at best of historical interest for me. I wouldn't mind the cut of one or two short chorales or even a lesser aria but not my favorite pieces... Certainly, there were reasons, maybe practical or technical for this but it doesn't make me accept the holes.

And yes, Zelenka wrote some very good pieces, especially the trio sonatas, probably the best woodwind pieces of their time, and the Missa votiva that is comparable in quality to the shorter Lutheran masses by Bach, I think.


----------



## Montarsolo

My acquaintance with the Mattheus passion did not go through one specific recording. But through various recordings (highlights) and radio broadcasts: Gönnewein, Johannes Sommary, Pieter-Jan Leuskink, Jos van Veldhoven.

But the first to make a big impression in terms of performance was Harnoncourt's first recording (Grand prix du disque + Edison). But I must confess that I am not very familiar with later authentic performances.


----------



## Simon23

Kreisler jr said:


> I don't know the Lehmann but other historical recordings like the Furtwängler or even the Ramin (who would have been considered "historically informed" in the 40s and 50s and his St. John from the 50s holds up quite well) are literally "cut to shreds". They are missing many of my favorite pieces (I think Ramin includes the accompagnato "Am Abend da es kühle war" but cuts "Mache dich, mein Herze, rein" which is infuriating and makes these recordings at best of historical interest for me. I wouldn't mind the cut of one or two short chorales or even a lesser aria but not my favorite pieces... Certainly, there were reasons, maybe practical or technical for this but it doesn't make me accept the holes.
> 
> And yes, Zelenka wrote some very good pieces, especially the trio sonatas, probably the best woodwind pieces of their time, and the Missa votiva that is comparable in quality to the shorter Lutheran masses by Bach, I think.


I agree that cuts are an unpleasant disadvantage, but other advantages of historical records (great vocals, great orchestras) compensate for this. 
As for Zelenka, in my opinion, "to write some good works" and "to be equal to Bach" are far from the same thing.


----------



## marlow

Simon23 said:


> Of course not. No one can know how Bach himself would like to perform his works. I meant artistic expressiveness.


while we don’t know how Bach himself would have performed his works we can say he wouldn’t have performed them like Furtwangler Or Klemperer. The more I hear these works the more I think they should be done with modern choirs and a slim attack.


----------



## Marc

marlow said:


> while we don’t know how Bach himself would have performed his works we can say he wouldn’t have performed them like Furtwangler Or Klemperer. The more I hear these works the more I think they should be done with modern choirs and a slim attack.


Bach's own _Entwurff einer wohlbestallten Kirchen-Music _(1730) gives us at least an idea about his preferred size of the musical 'forces'. (He wasn't happy with the small amount of performers he mostly had to work with. It's very well possible that he sometimes had to work with only 1 singer per part, for instance, which apparently was not the way he preferred it.)



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bach%27s_choir_and_orchestra



About interpreting/playing baroque music in general: quite a few 'guidelines' have survived, the best known are probably those of Johann Mattheson (1681-1764), like _Das neu-eröffnete Orchester_, _Die Generalbaßschule_ and _Der vollkommene Capellmeister_.
Mattheson and other theorists based their ideas and guidelines for a large part on theories of René Descartes, as written down in f.i. _De passionibus animae_ (1649) and _Musicae Compendium_ (1656, posth.).
According to Descartes, "[...] the basis of music is sound; its aim is to please and to arouse various emotions in us.” This became a general framework for interpreting and playing (baroque) music as a whole. Composers began to place a much greater emphasis on dramatic power of music, to express different passions and cause more emotional responses from the audience. This became known as the _Affektenlehre_, the _Doctrine of Affections_. Because of that, the expression of emotions such as love, joy, rage, sorrow and pity became the chief objectives of Baroque compositions.
There was also a lot of attention for the rules of Aristoteles' _Ars Rhetorica_, which made baroque music, more than music of earlier eras, based on speech related patterns, even though there were quite some differences among the Italian, French, German and English 'approaches'.

It would take appr. 12783 pages to explain all those things in detail (of which I myself would not understand about 12697 pages at all), so I'm going to be brief. 
Based on the works of Mattheson & others, here are 2 examples of reasonably easy to understand summaries of the musical 'guidelines' of how to deliver the baroque _Doctrine of Affections_:









Beyond Bach: 12 tips for better Baroque playing


A thorough knowledge of Baroque repertoire apart from the works of Bach is so important if modern players are to gain a proper understanding of Classical and Romantic works, writes Adrian Butterfield




www.thestrad.com












A Brief Guide to Baroque Performance Practice


By Jacy Burroughs The Baroque period is defined as the advent of opera to the death of Bach, which was roughly 1600-1750. Each period of classical music is characterized by its own styles, techniqu…




blog.sheetmusicplus.com





But, of course, there is much more to be found on these subjects, both online and offline. Musicians, performers, conductors, listeners and scholars will always debate about it, and there will always be an interesting amount of various interpretations, performances and recordings. Thank goodness for that. Let's all enjoy our own preferences. Imho, life is way too short to endlessly quarrel and fight about this, that and the other.


----------



## Yabetz

marlow said:


> while we don’t know how Bach himself would have performed his works we can say he wouldn’t have performed them like Furtwangler Or Klemperer. The more I hear these works the more I think they should be done with modern choirs and a slim attack.


I don't think the opening chorus of the St Matthew Passion is meant to be jogged through like a gigue in about 4 minutes. Ditto with the Kyrie section of the B Minor Mass. My favorite is the 1958 Karl Richter version.


----------



## Marc

Yabetz said:


> I don't think the opening chorus of the St Matthew Passion is meant to be jogged through like a gigue in about 4 minutes. Ditto with the Kyrie section of the B Minor Mass. My favorite is the 1958 Karl Richter version.


Wow, the opening chorus in about 4 minutes. What recording is that? 
(I do know that Chailly (5:40) is insanely fast (yet rhythmically not that appealing imho).)


----------



## marlow

Yabetz said:


> I don't think the opening chorus of the St Matthew Passion is meant to be jogged through like a gigue in about 4 minutes. Ditto with the Kyrie section of the B Minor Mass. My favorite is the 1958 Karl Richter version.


The chorus is a Sarabande. Richter’s is on the slow side but still convincing. One has to remember that this is still a dance which makes the likes of Klemperer absurd. Jacobs is one who gets is about right and Bruggen too. if You want it slower the Leonhart.


----------



## Kreisler jr

The final chorus is a sarabande, the first chorus is in 12/8. It's not a gigue but one can argue that the "Wo-hin?" etc interjections should sound almost like normal speech, certainly still recognizable (rather than wo ---- hin?) and the the boy's chorale (Lamm Gottes etc.) should be like a normally sung chorale, not twice as slow, in brief, that how fast or slow the triples/8th are should not dominate the finding of the correct tempo.


----------



## Yabetz

Kreisler jr said:


> one can argue that the "Wo-hin?" etc interjections should sound almost like normal speech, certainly still recognizable (rather than wo ---- hin?) and the the boy's chorale (Lamm Gottes etc.) should be like a normally sung chorale, not twice as slow...


Which is what the case is in the '58 Richter. I get a little weary of HIP being fast-faster-fastest. Largo becomes allegro moderato.


----------



## Yabetz

marlow said:


> The chorus is a Sarabande. Richter’s is on the slow side but still convincing. One has to remember that this is still a dance which makes the likes of Klemperer absurd. Jacobs is one who gets is about right and Bruggen too. if You want it slower the Leonhart.


Like much of Bach's music it's inspired by dance forms, but it isn't a dance per se. Also I don't know if the final chorus is a sarabande either since that particular dance stresses the second beat of the three beat measure. "Wir setzen uns" actually feels more like a minuet in form.


----------



## Kreisler jr

There is no tempo indication for the first St matthew chorus, AFAIK. And there were versions with it only lasting 6-7 min already in the 1930s (Ochs) and 50s (Scherchen, who is superslow for "O Mensch bewein" and "Wir setzen uns...", so it cannot be just a general speeding up but a conscious decision for the particular pieces).


----------



## Marc

Kreisler jr said:


> There is no tempo indication for the first St matthew chorus, AFAIK. And there were versions with it only lasting 6-7 min already in the 1930s (Ochs) and 50s (Scherchen, who is superslow for "O Mensch bewein" and "Wir setzen uns...", so it cannot be just a general speeding up but a conscious decision for the particular pieces).


Siegfried Ochs, yeah.
IIRC, he was a guest director for the Netherlands Bach Society in the 1920s, and back then he was already known as someone who searched for more reliable sources and had made changes to the score ('manufactured' by the old Bach Gesellschaft), and he also was an advocate for a complete performance of the Passions,


----------

