# Composing Post-Tonal music away from the instrument and computer? Any tips?



## Igneous01

Something that has been bugging me for sometime now, is how does one approach composing away from any direct musical sources, post tonal music? With Tonality it is easier to identity intervals and triads, and if you are experienced, 7th chords and secondary dominants, half diminished's, minor 7ths, etc.

But what are some guidelines or things that can help you recreate dissonant relationships in your music without having to go to the piano or midi to check?

Im finding it really hard trying to recreate in my head a R-M7-b9 (ex. C-B-Db) or R-d5-b9 (C-Gb, Db) and other similar types of 'chords'. Im not really sure how to approach building music such as this when I cant create those awkward intervals in my head.

If there are people who do it from the head, can you please offer some advice and suggestions of how you do it? Do you go this far in head writing? Or do you do a basic framework, and rework it at the instrument?


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## PetrB

LOL. It is called ear training, including that very vocabulary you inquire of, and then, like the 'older tonal system' with which almost all are deathly familiar and habituated, it is a matter of becoming as familiar and habituated with the 'newer' vocabulary.

The only time I've been able to compose 'at a desk' is when I've already been immersed and actively working on a piece for some good length of time. Then, it is in my ears and my sub-conscious, I suppose, fairly busy with it even when I am not aware -- and it has happened with both tonal / atonal pieces I was making.

Even then, it is a matter of maybe a few bars, a line, half a page at most -- miracle of miracles -- so far, whenever that has been the case, none of it needed the slightest revision at all. It felt / feels great when it happens; but is for me an entirely rare, highly elusive event. 
[Do I have 'can write entirely at a desk' envy? You bet. Am I resigned to working as best I can without that gift / ability? Yep.] ...

... but here is the most important thing if using an instrument when composing -- make sure the idiom of the instrument, and as or more importantly, any 'motor habits' involved in playing that instrument, does not influence what notes you want to hear, even if the piece is for that particular instrument.

I'm capable enough of playing any reasonable reduction of what I'm working on (at the piano) and have the rationale / 'permission' as delivered by Stravinsky, who could write at a desk but most often preferred working at the piano, saying if you had actual sound to check your activity, why not take advantage of it?

Still I would recommend more specific practice / ear training in the newer arena, where, by self-confession, you are weaker (by dint of lack of practice, of course


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## Kopachris

Write down ideas, then play and revise them when you get a chance. (And work on that ear training, as PetrB suggested!) The only post-tonal music I have experimented with is 12-tone, in which case I've been more concerned with contour, timbre, and dynamic than pitch and sonority, though.


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## juergen

All that 'ear training stuff' makes only sense, if you consider that as a personal challange. If I have no instrument available, i use an iPhone app.


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## kitaro

I think structure and rhythm are more important in atonal music. Atonal dictation (when notes do not have harmonic coherence) is actually used in music schools to detect students with absolute pitch ability. So do not worry if you cannot write atonal music at the desk. 
Try to do it for your tonal pieces. Verify them on a piano and memorize chord 'feelings'.


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## PetrB

kitaro said:


> ... Atonal dictation (when notes do not have harmonic coherence) is actually used in music schools to detect students with absolute pitch ability. So do not worry if you cannot write atonal music at the desk.


Well push me over with a feather, where and when I went to school (a state school, not an exclusive private institute), ear training included atonal dictation because the intent was to train the hearing of all music students to be prepared for music playing, composing, and listening, and in a very real and contemporary world. [In fact, as quoted above, what you've said is to me so outrageous it makes me think you just 'made it up.']

It is necessary equipment: whether you ever directly use it ever again, it still hones your skills to the maximum. If you can pluck any interval out of the air -- or your inner ear (without the need of 'perfect pitch') and you practice to get that skill, you will never have trouble with any interval, line or harmony.

Shucks, I'd think you'd want all the tools if you were truly interested n doing it well, and 'readily.'


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## kitaro

PetrB said:


> Well push me over with a feather, where and when I went to school (a state school, not an exclusive private institute) ear training included atonal dictation because the intent was to train the hearing of all music students to be prepared for music playing, composing, and listening, and in a very real and contemporary world. [In fact, as quoted above, what you've said is to me so outrageous it makes me think you just 'made it up.']
> 
> It is necessary equipment: whether you ever directly use it ever again, it still hones your skills to the maximum. If you can pluck any interval out of the air -- or your inner ear (without the need of 'perfect pitch') and you practice to get that skill, you will never have trouble with any interval, line or harmony.
> 
> Shucks, I'd think you'd want all the tools if you were truly interested n doing it well, and 'readily.'


I am not talking about recognizing an interval or a melody line, but a complete section of a piece. Relative ears are normally lost just after some bars of atonal music, while absolute ears continue recognizing notes as they do not need any 'reference'.


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## PetrB

kitaro said:


> I am not talking about recognizing an interval or a melody line, but a complete section of a piece. Relative ears are normally lost just after some bars of atonal music, while absolute ears continue recognizing notes as they do not need any 'reference'.


If the OP had absolute hearing, there would likely not have been the question....

But you may not have the fullest experience or information here: 'absolute' is also, by nature, relative, and too, whether a body has that gift or not, the ear needs training to get better able to assist in recognizing -- and holding in memory -- that which you call 'reference.'

It is only lack of custom where one has the 'reference' more readily for tonal music but not highly chromatic or atonal.

To a good degree, I discredit / blame the theoretic approach to music 'as chords' or 'vertical thinking.' + "Melody." it is simplistic, and maybe beneficial for a simple song in strophic form, but of little real use for larger scale pieces with longer-breathed ideas or structures.

That vertical emphasis is endemic, found almost 100% among the self-taught, and still, sadly, the primary mode of teaching from basic music in lower school levels to universities and conservatories.

It is the horizontal, compounded, which allows one to think and hear more 'forward.' If one wants ones ears and imagination to go further, I think it necessary to virtually abandon that 'vertical thinking,' - at least if one wishes to write anything we would call 'classical' these days.

Or at the least, think vertically and horizontally simultaneously...

Verticals happen anyway, as a consequence of compound horizontal thinking, concentrating on them (I believe) is wasted effort which takes away from the goal of making a more extended thought or piece. They're maybe good for pop song writers, like Trix are for Kids.


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## Igneous01

PetrB said:


> If the OP had absolute hearing, there would likely not have been the question....
> 
> But you may not have the fullest experience or information here: 'absolute' is also, by nature, relative, and too, whether a body has that gift or not, the ear needs training to get better able to assist in recognizing -- and holding in memory -- that which you call 'reference.'
> 
> It is only lack of custom where one has the 'reference' more readily for tonal music but not highly chromatic or atonal.
> 
> To a good degree, I discredit / blame the theoretic approach to music 'as chords' or 'vertical thinking.' + "Melody." it is simplistic, and maybe beneficial for a simple song in strophic form, but of little real use for larger scale pieces with longer-breathed ideas or structures.
> 
> That vertical emphasis is endemic, found almost 100% among the self-taught, and still, sadly, the primary mode of teaching from basic music in lower school levels to universities and conservatories.
> 
> It is the horizontal, compounded, which allows one to think and hear more 'forward.' If one wants ones ears and imagination to go further, I think it necessary to virtually abandon that 'vertical thinking,' - at least if one wishes to write anything we would call 'classical' these days.
> 
> Or at the least, think vertically and horizontally simultaneously...
> 
> Verticals happen anyway, as a consequence of compound horizontal thinking, concentrating on them (I believe) is wasted effort which takes away from the goal of making a more extended thought or piece. They're maybe good for pop song writers, like Trix are for Kids.


I must ask, but is everything you practically say a hidden insult at someone/thing? 

Just curious. However you made some good points.


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## PetrB

Igneous01 said:


> I must ask, but is everything you practically say a hidden insult at someone/thing?
> 
> Just curious. However you made some good points.


LOL. Not at all. There is certainly present in tone, most often directly said, a less than hidden disappointment in how a lot of music, appreciation, history, theory -- introductory or advanced, is taught: I was hugely fortunate in not having been taught in the manners I criticize, (chords chords chords), and see so often the problems -- as showing in so many questions -- which are a result of how many people have been taught, i.e. badly, or with 'whole chunks missing.'

Not being expected to train ones ear to be able to take an atonal dictation anytime past 1975 A.C.E. is rather 'quaint.' There, a sardonic dig in clear view for you


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