# Wagner fans...............................



## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

What is your favorite scene/moment from his 10 mature operas?

I'll start. I love the wood bird scene at the end of Act 3 of Siegfried.
It's so beautiful and magical I never tire of its charm.

What's yours?:tiphat:


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## expat (Mar 17, 2013)

Erda's warning. A return to reason in the middle of the craziness of the Ring.


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## Don Fatale (Aug 31, 2009)

Gotterdammerung prelude: Siegfried's and Brunnhilde's ecstatic duet leading into the Rhine journey music.


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

Parsifal's Vorspiel.


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## expat (Mar 17, 2013)

Don Fatale said:


> Gotterdammerung prelude: Siegfried's and Brunnhilde's ecstatic duet leading into the Rhine journey music.


Not fair. I'll take from "Winterstuerme" to the end of Act1 of Walkuere then. No, make that the full act1 of Walkuere.


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## DarkAngel (Aug 11, 2010)

*Lohengrin's final story of his origins.......*

After Elsa asks the forbidden question to her new husband/savior Lohengrin of "what is your name" he calls the king and people of Brabant to assemble to hear his story of his name, origin, and mission to save a falsely accused lady

In fernim land -> mein lieber schwan

Wonderous other worldly shimmering violin chords begin the narration of the grail knight of Monsalvat, the most beautiful of tenor lines follow in the hands of great singers like Jess Thomas, Sandor Konya, and recently Jonas Kaufmann from soft reverent tones to soaring proclamations, it is all here in great beauty........

When done right a magical mystical aura is evoked leading to final defeat of Ortrud and transformation of swan to the new duke of Brabant


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

Of course the miraculous farewell and magic fire music from the end of Act 3 of Die Walkure.
Nothing more monumental or beautiful.


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## SiegendesLicht (Mar 4, 2012)

Lots of them. I will just name one: the scene in Act II of Die Walküre where Brünhilde first appears to Siegmund to tell him of his death.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Scene: Final scene of _Die Walkure_. Agree totally with Itullian. Given a great _Heldenbariton_ (any applicants?) and a great conductor, the love and sorrow and majesty of this is unsurpassable.

Moment: How long is a moment? The prelude to _Lohengrin?_ The quintet from _Meistersinger?_ "O sink hernieder" and Brangaene's warning from the tower from _Tristan?_ The "forest murmurs" from _Siegfried?_ Waltraute's narrative from _Gotterdammerung?_ Siegfried's death to the end of the _Ring?_ The prelude, or the Act 1 "transformation music," or the Good Friday music, or the finale from _Parsifal?_ How about all of Act 3 of _Parsifal?_ How about all of _Parsifal?_

I guess I can't do this. Too many momentous moments.


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

The love duet and Brangane's warning in Act 2 of Tristan.
Otherworldly!!!


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Itullian said:


> The love duet and Brangane's warning in Act 2 of Tristan.
> Otherworldly!!!


Oho! So that's how we cheat at this, eh? Use separate posts for all our favorite moments? Ha!

Yeah, I know, I know. How can I hold it against you? It's WAGNER!


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## Xaltotun (Sep 3, 2010)

Oh, this is one of those questions where the answer will change daily for me... or hourly! But as for now: _Rheingold:_ Rheingold appears in the glorious rays of the sun, the Rhinedaughters exult in its glory and Alberich cannot fathom such purity and innocence. _Lohengrin:_ Elsa's increasingly mad, world-renouncing visions and faith in the saving knight, disbelieved and ridiculed by everyone until the knight appears as a miracle, a triumph of spirit. _Siegfried:_ Wotan-Wanderer answers Mime's final question, describing the Gods, Valhalla and himself in a show of power that is full of different levels - on one hand, he still holds his power, but on the other, he's now aware of his weaknesses, and he's also aware that Mime is not aware of either of those. When he describes Wotan, it's as if he is describing a stranger, a role to be played.


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

In Dutchman, towards the end when the sailors chorus is going on and the Dutchman's ghostly chorus overwhelms them.
Awesome!!!


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

Woodduck said:


> Oho! So that's how we cheat at this, eh? Use separate posts for all our favorite moments? Ha!
> 
> Yeah, I know, I know. How can I hold it against you? It's WAGNER!


They all deserve their own post.


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## SiegendesLicht (Mar 4, 2012)

Xaltotun said:


> _Siegfried:_ Wotan-Wanderer answers Mime's final question, describing the Gods, Valhalla and himself in a show of power that is full of different levels - on one hand, he still holds his power, but on the other, he's now aware of his weaknesses, and he's also aware that Mime is not aware of either of those. When he describes Wotan, it's as if he is describing a stranger, a role to be played.


Until he forgets himself, slams his spear into the ground and a peal of thunder rumbles. After that there can be no mistake as to who the Wanderer is.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

The very beginning of the _Ring_ - Eb out of the depths of nowhere, a universe born in music. Is this thrilling because we know what's coming, or is it thrilling because we remember our own origin in water and darkness?


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

Hagen and Alberich at the start of Act 3 of Götterdämmerung. "Schlafst du, Hagen mein Sohn?" A truly chilling little episode which sets up what's to come.


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

The riddle scene in Siegfried. Like Bilbo and Gollum only with more humour laced with danger. Never ask a question if you don't already have an inkling of what the answer is going to be!!


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Barbebleu said:


> The riddle scene in Siegfried. Like Bilbo and Gollum only with more humour laced with danger. Never ask a question if you don't already have an inkling of what the answer is going to be!!


I always think this scene makes bad listening musically with Mime's squawking. The Solti version, with Hotter in bad voice and Stolze hamming it up, is particularly bad!


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## SiegendesLicht (Mar 4, 2012)

There is another scene in _Siegfried_ that is full of dark humor: in Act II when the hero comes back from his fight with the dragon and Mime is trying to convince him to drink the sleeping draught he had brewed. Except that Siegfried can now hear his thoughts and understand his true intentions - to get rid of him, and Mime is absolutely confused by that. In Solti's Ring, Mime (Gerhard Stolze) at some point enunciates very carefully:
- I only want to... cut off your head!


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## schigolch (Jun 26, 2011)

Liebestod:


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

DavidA said:


> I always think this scene makes bad listening musically with Mime's squawking. The Solti version, with Hotter in bad voice and Stolze hamming it up, is particularly bad!


I confess to finding this quiz scene a bit tedious musically - it's a sort of "name the leitmotivs from _Rheingold"_ test - but it ends fantastically, with Mime cowering in terror, the orchestra buzzing and humming and flickering nightmarishly, and Siegfried suddenly bursting in and the whole atmosphere turning from dark to light in an instant.


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

I had suspected that somebody would have already chosen one of the key moments from the Ring:

Die Walkuere Act III and Sieglinde's O hehrstes Wunder! Herrliche Maid!

N.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

SiegendesLicht said:


> There is another scene in _Siegfried_ that is full of dark humor: in Act II when the hero comes back from his fight with the dragon and Mime is trying to convince him to drink the sleeping draught he had brewed. Except that Siegfried can now hear his thoughts and understand his true intentions - to get rid of him, and Mime is absolutely confused by that. In Solti's Ring, Mime (Gerhard Stolze) at some point enunciates very carefully:
> - I only want to... cut off your head!


Wagner's music for Mime here is so full of oily solicitude, expressing perfectly what Mime _thinks_ he's communicating rather than what Siegfried is actually hearing, and it's hilarious the way he tries desperately to reassure Siegfried of his benign intentions, while digging himself a deeper hole with everything he says. Stolze is great here, I agree.


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

DavidA said:


> I always think this scene makes bad listening musically with Mime's squawking. The Solti version, with Hotter in bad voice and Stolze hamming it up, is particularly bad!


Depends on who is singing it. The Solti studio is probably not the best example. Herman Uhde and Herold Kraus in Bayreuth 1960 are pretty good. There are others too.


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

Beginning of Act 1 of Die Walkure. The storm.
So ominous!!


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

Act 3, Meistersinger.
Monumental


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

SiegendesLicht said:


> There is another scene in _Siegfried_ that is full of dark humor: in Act II when the hero comes back from his fight with the dragon and Mime is trying to convince him to drink the sleeping draught he had brewed. Except that Siegfried can now hear his thoughts and understand his true intentions - to get rid of him, and Mime is absolutely confused by that. In Solti's Ring, Mime (Gerhard Stolze) at some point enunciates very carefully:
> - I only want to... cut off your head!


Love it. .................


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## SiegendesLicht (Mar 4, 2012)

The leitmotiv of Walhalla, every time it comes up: in Das Rheingold, in Siegfried during the riddle scene etc. The sun rising over the Rhine and the fortress of the gods. I usually listen to Wagner's operas at night, but when that leitmotiv sounds, I can almost feel the warmth of that sun from another world.


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

And the rainbow bridge final march with the sarcastic Loge commenting on the situation.
Giant genius!


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

The much over played, but still amazing Ride of the Walkure.
Maybe the most exciting scene in all opera!


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## SiegendesLicht (Mar 4, 2012)

The scene of Brünhilde's awakening in Act III of _Siegfried_.

_Heil dir, Sonne!
Heil dir, Licht!..._


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

SiegendesLicht said:


> The scene of Brünhilde's awakening in Act III of _Siegfried_.
> 
> _Heil dir, Sonne!
> Heil dir, Licht!..._


And the ecstatic duet that follows!!!!


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## Don Fatale (Aug 31, 2009)

SiegendesLicht said:


> The scene of Brünhilde's awakening in Act III of _Siegfried_.
> 
> _Heil dir, Sonne!
> Heil dir, Licht!..._


For me, particularly when seeing live or video. It's one of those moments where I'm looking for the soprano to express that she has been asleep in a ring of fire for however long. On one of the DVDs I have (can't remember which) the singer takes a huge gasp of breath as if she had just resurfaced from under water. The searing orchestral phrases that accompany her at this point is surely one of the rings great moments.


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

A scene that always gives me chills............
Act 2 Walkure after Hunding kills Siegmund, Wotan grieving, with a
contempt , and just a thought, pronounces Hunding dead.

Even I experience awe at his power.


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## DarkAngel (Aug 11, 2010)

Itullian said:


> Of course the *miraculous farewell and magic fire music *from the end of Act 3 of Die Walkure.
> Nothing more monumental or beautiful.


You know I like Act 3 of Walkure........

I am fascinated by the orchestral treatment of the calling up of Loge and summoning of the "magic" fire wall, the flames are depicted as playful dancing elements (no sense of menace or danger) with flutes then some deep brass come in to build some size and scale but still playful in the background, then finally a repetitive "rocking motion" to the sound very evocative of sleep (brunhilde) as in rocking a baby to sleep as we fade out........very niceeeeee



Woodduck said:


> Scene: Final scene of _Die Walkure_. Agree totally with Itullian. Given a great _Heldenbariton_ *(any applicants?)* and a great conductor, the love and sorrow and majesty of this is unsurpassable.


Doesn't an animated fresh voiced Hans Hotter in early 1950s make the grade for Duck?


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

^Interesting how Loge, the Fire God, is the quick witted , clever, scheming one of the bunch.


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## Volve (Apr 14, 2013)

I'm here trying to pick one particular scene in Walkure that I love more than the others, but it's impossible, so I'll just consider the whole opera as a single scene from the Ring and go with that.


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

Awesome scene from the Lepage Ring.........
Amazing music!!!!


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

DarkAngel said:


> You know I like Act 3 of Walkure........
> 
> I am fascinated by the orchestral treatment of the calling up of Loge and summoning of the "magic" fire wall, the flames are depicted as playful dancing elements (no sense of menace or danger) with flutes then some deep brass come in to build some size and scale but still playful in the background, then finally a repetitive "rocking motion" to the sound very evocative of sleep (brunhilde) as in rocking a baby to sleep as we fade out........very niceeeeee
> 
> Doesn't an animated fresh voiced Hans Hotter in early 1950s make the grade for Duck?


Hotter can no longer apply.

The position is presently open.


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## ArtMusic (Jan 5, 2013)

Itullian said:


> What is your favorite scene/moment from his 10 mature operas?
> 
> I'll start. I love the wood bird scene at the end of Act 3 of Siegfried.
> It's so beautiful and magical I never tire of its charm.
> ...


The end scene of sublime _Parsifal._ The end of all Romantic operas.


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## DarkAngel (Aug 11, 2010)

Itullian said:


> Awesome scene from the Lepage Ring.........
> Amazing music!!!!


Think they replaced Debra Voight with a "stunt double manikin" when no one was looking, pretty sure that is not her hanging upside down......:lol:

Over the weekend I got the* new Barenboim La Scala Ring blu ray *(a mixed bag) and was comparing to my other video Ring sets (6 total) and if I only keep one I probably go with newer Met "Machine" Ring in that video......



Woodduck said:


> Hotter can no longer apply.
> The position is presently open.


Now I understand current singers only, you are right the position is definitely open


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## Balthazar (Aug 30, 2014)

I second the Liebestod from _Tristan und Isolde_.


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## DarkAngel (Aug 11, 2010)

ArtMusic said:


> The end scene of sublime _Parsifal._ The end of all Romantic operas.


Duck has found a new friend.........


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

SiegendesLicht said:


> There is another scene in _Siegfried_ that is full of dark humor: in Act II when the hero comes back from his fight with the dragon and Mime is trying to convince him to drink the sleeping draught he had brewed. Except that Siegfried can now hear his thoughts and understand his true intentions - to get rid of him, and Mime is absolutely confused by that. In Solti's Ring, Mime (Gerhard Stolze) at some point enunciates very carefully:
> - I only want to... cut off your head!


Ends with Siefried valiantly murdering the unarmed dwarf. What a hero!


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

DavidA said:


> Ends with Siefried valiantly murdering the unarmed dwarf. What a hero!


That was trying to kill him!!

This thread is for Wagner fans my friend.
Do you have anything positive to offer?


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## Belowpar (Jan 14, 2015)

Woodduck said:


> The very beginning of the _Ring_ - Eb out of the depths of nowhere, a universe born in music. Is this thrilling because we know what's coming, or is it thrilling because we remember our own origin in water and darkness?


It's just a fancy I have but when I sit and watch and listen to waves crashing on the shore I can hear the opening chord to Tristan. You see the power storing up and then the tumultuous sound of water breaking on more water, always with the promise of more waves to follow...
There are few things in life I prefer to experiencing a good shorebreak.

Pseuds corner anyone?


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## SiegendesLicht (Mar 4, 2012)

DavidA said:


> Ends with Siefried valiantly murdering the unarmed dwarf. What a hero!


Siegfried fights honorably with his sword, Mime fights by means of deception, so yes, Siegfried is a hero.

This thread makes me want to listen to the Ring again, all of it.


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## anmhe (Feb 10, 2015)

Wait, did I miss another Wagner themed flame war? Why didn't anybody come find me? Thanks, guys.


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## Gaspard de la Nuit (Oct 20, 2014)

My favorite scene is probably act 2 of Meistersinger when Sachs is messing with beckmesser's scheme in the middle of the night. The whole act is my favorite of any Wagner, it's got suspense, humor, everything. And the music is _awesome_.


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

SiegendesLicht said:


> Siegfried fights honorably with his sword, Mime fights by means of deception, so yes, Siegfried is a hero.
> 
> This thread makes me want to listen to the Ring again, all of it.


Definitely ...........I am!


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

Act 2, Gotterdammerung.
Hagen summoning the vassals.
Most chilling thing ever!!


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## SiegendesLicht (Mar 4, 2012)

Itullian said:


> Act 2, Gotterdammerung.
> Hagen summoning the vassals.
> Most chilling thing ever!!


That part where the vassals reply in a chorus is the epitome of macho manly music. I almost feel my own muscles grow when I hear it


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## anmhe (Feb 10, 2015)

My only issue with Hagen's vassals is that they require an inordinate amount of micromanaging.


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## Gaspard de la Nuit (Oct 20, 2014)

Itullian said:


> Act 2, Gotterdammerung.
> Hagen summoning the vassals.
> Most chilling thing ever!!


I used to listen to that one over and over, such a dangerous, edgy scene, the music has such a brutal element to it, but also becomes sarcastically sentimental. In the interest of full disclosure I used to picture myself shouting "HOI HOOO!!!" across my childhood playground. But I never do that anymore....never, ever.


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## MAS (Apr 15, 2015)

The great Wotan/Brunhilde confrontation scene in the last Act of Die Walkure to the end of the opera.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Gaspard de la Nuit said:


> I used to listen to that one over and over, such a dangerous, edgy scene, the music has such a brutal element to it, but also becomes sarcastically sentimental. In the interest of full disclosure I used to picture myself shouting "HOI HOOO!!!" across my childhood playground. But I never do that anymore....never, ever.


Oh, do try it again. It's salubrious to throw off the veneer of civilization occasionally.

I won't even tell you some of the Wagnerian things I picture myself doing.


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## SiegendesLicht (Mar 4, 2012)

Listening to the Solti Ring again, starting with Das Rheingold tonight. For the next few evenings I am gone to the valley of the Rhine - the mythical one for now.


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

SiegendesLicht said:


> Listening to the Solti Ring again, starting with Das Rheingold tonight. For the next few evenings I am gone to the valley of the Rhine - the mythical one for now.


I watched Rheingold on utube last night. The Chereau production.


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## Don Fatale (Aug 31, 2009)

SiegendesLicht said:


> That part where the vassals reply in a chorus is the epitome of macho manly music. I almost feel my own muscles grow when I hear it


It's fabulous, and so visceral, particularly with that horn blowing, which we sense is incredibly loud as if to summon people from a wide area.

Such a shame there aren't many choruses in the Ring, but I guess that's for another thread.


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

How bout Siegfrieds death and funeral music.
Monumental!!!


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

The sublimest moments of the sublimest moments:

1. When Tristan and Isolde declare themselves as having become the world in Act II of Tristan
2. When Kundry relates to Parsifal the sorrowful death of Heart's Sorrow


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

Lohengrin, End of Act 2, just before and entering the church.
If done well very beautiful.


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

The Rome narration and closing scene of Tannhauser with that fantastic choral finish.


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## SiegendesLicht (Mar 4, 2012)

Barbebleu said:


> The Rome narration and closing scene of Tannhauser with that fantastic choral finish.


_Heil! Heil!
Der Gnade Wunder heil!.._

I love it too.


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## MAS (Apr 15, 2015)

The Todesverkundigung scene / Flagstad!


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

The prelude and hymn, Meistersinger Act 1.


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

Wolfram's song to the evening star from Tannhauser. So far, it looks as if, collectively, we will be naming every scene from every opera! Not such a bad thing.


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## SiegendesLicht (Mar 4, 2012)

The ceremony in the Grail castle in Act I of Parsifal.


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

SiegendesLicht said:


> The ceremony in the Grail castle in Act I of Parsifal.


Awesome..........................


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Barbebleu said:


> So far, it looks as if, collectively, we will be naming every scene from every opera! Not such a bad thing.


Yeah. I got tired of giving everything "likes."

Whatever you come up with, just visualize a "like" from me.


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## Don Fatale (Aug 31, 2009)

Perhaps opera is all about the 'moments', and Wagner sure has a lot of them.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Don Fatale said:


> Perhaps opera is all about the 'moments', and Wagner sure has a lot of them.


The problem is that his works are so seamlessly integrated that it's hard to know where the "moments" begin and end. For me, _Parsifal_ is virtually one long moment - or perhaps three, if we divide it into acts. Same with _Tristan_. It's much easier to pick highlights with other composers.


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## Ilarion (May 22, 2015)

Here is Wagner "Ride of the Valkyries" as you have never heard it before:


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## Loge (Oct 30, 2014)

The prelude to Die Walkure, especially when played on an electric guitar!


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## PKW (Apr 7, 2015)

I second the bridge to Valhalla sequence in Rheingold, very fascinating all the way from "Schwüles Gedünst schwebt in der Luft..." (something I often say out loud to comment on that kind of...weather) - but, for some long moments, the prelude to Lohengrin with the high violins always strikes me as phenomenally beautiful, along with the Tristan chord in the vorspiel and later in that wild second act and obviously in the Liebestod. Very good music.
But thanks - this thread made me listen more carefully to some other passages!


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## Xaltotun (Sep 3, 2010)

SiegendesLicht said:


> Until he forgets himself, slams his spear into the ground and a peal of thunder rumbles. After that there can be no mistake as to who the Wanderer is.


It's certainly a powerful moment! But I think I see it a little differently, perhaps. I look at it so that Wotan is talking to three audiences - on one level, Mime; on another, the actual audience in the opera house; and third, to himself. You are right that the actual audience cannot doubt after this moment the identity of the Wanderer. But I think that Mime stays in the dark, he still hasn't figured it out. You are also right that Wotan does sort of forget himself in the heat of the moment, but I don't think it's a complete abandonment. He's introducing himself to the audience; he's still fooling Mime; but most of all, he's talking to himself. He's processing his own development, reminiscing what he used to be, and comparing it to what he is now. He used to be the mighty ruler of the Valhalla who rules by his spear, and in a way, he still is; but he's begun to question himself. The power of the Spear feels increasingly empty to him. He's laughing at Mime: you still fear this Spear! He's also aiming a tragic laughter at himself: here I am, again fooling lesser beings with empty threats of ultimate power - and the poor things still obey! At the same time, he acknowledges that power - he's still powerful as ever, but he sees now that it's more because of the ignorance of others than his own inherent might. I think he has some dark fun describing the Wotan that he'd wish to be. Also, while his power has indeed diminished, on another level he has gained some - quite different - power, because his awareness of himself and the world has increased. So, he works differently now, still the Godhead but perhaps not because of raw power, but because of cunning and greater insight into others (not only Mime but also Alberich and Siegfried).


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## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

Verdi wins in my book. perfect balance of lyrical/delicate/elegant with more dramatic and stentorian. while his characterizations aren't the most moving, his vocal lines are far more interesting than either Wagner or Puccini (who write roles primarily within a single tessitura).


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

BalalaikaBoy said:


> Verdi wins in my book. perfect balance of lyrical/delicate/elegant with more dramatic and stentorian. while his characterizations aren't the most moving, his vocal lines are far more interesting than either Wagner or Puccini (who write roles primarily within a single tessitura).


I think you wanted to post this under the "Verdi, Wagner and Puccini" thread...?


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

*A quote from a conversation elsewhere on T and I.*

"I totally agree with Wagner being passed over as a genius Librettist . . . His poetical style in par with Goethe in the way he makes German sing in such a mellifluous manner. The man was a great writer - with a deep sense and knowledge of myth and of how certain archetypes could be played out in character, as well as setting.

Wagner made us of an ancient alliterative structure known as "Stabreim" from Germanic and Anglo-Saxon verse.
As developed for the ring, it usually employed verse pairs, each line containing 2 or 3 'Lifts' (stresses). The first and /or accented syllables were alliterated - However, Wagner liked also liked to set up interlocking, double alliterations, as in the following example from scene 2 of 'Das Rheingold':

Trügt mich ein Nebel?
Neckt mich ein Traum?
Wie bang und bleich
verblüht ihr so bald!

Wagner loved the sense that he was connecting and forging a link with primitive folk culture.
(Millington: The Sorcerer of Bayreuth - pages 93-94).

Wagner was the first to make use of Stabreim in a libretto. . . There is a beautiful sing song melody to the text.

Great stuff! "


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## SiegendesLicht (Mar 4, 2012)

Wagner is not the only composer who made the German language sound beautiful (I am listening to Richard Strauss right now, and his vocal music is wonderful as well), but as a poet and a myth-maker he is without equals. 

In another thread I told the story of my first acquaintance with the Meister. As a life-long admirer of another great modern myth-maker, Professor Tolkien, as someone who was at that time rapidly falling in love with the German language and all the culture around it, as someone on the search for music that would be melodic, mighty and moving at the same time - Wagnerian art hit me on multiple levels. The music, the stories, the poetry... This also pertains to another topic that has been discussed lately - how to make classical music more popular and to attract more people to it. Sometimes all it takes is the right piece at the right time.


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

Couldn't sleep last night so watched Dutchman and Act 2 of Meister.
A good night.


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## SiegendesLicht (Mar 4, 2012)

I don't think it was mentioned before: the finale of Parsifal, that moment when Amfortas, over the coffin of his father, asks first him, and then the knights to grant him death. When he sings:

Oh, der du jetzt in göttlichem Glanz
den Erlöser selbst erschaust...

I see an image from my Christian past - the Lord in heaven in a blinding white radiance. Still moves me to tears almost every time, and both the words themselves and the music contribute to that effect.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Itullian said:


> Couldn't sleep last night so watched Dutchman and Act 2 of Meister.
> A good night.


the Dutchman? Not exactly a lullaby! :lol:


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## Celloman (Sep 30, 2006)

I'm convinced that the orchestral interlude in Act 3 of Siegfried in which the titular character fights his way through the flames to get to the sleeping Brunnhilde is one of the four, maybe three, greatest moments in the Ring cycle. This is a supreme example of the art of transition. Wagner gives us Siegfried's horn theme in blazing color, then breaks up this theme motivically as Siegfried forges on through the heat. The flames yield to the "sleep" theme, and when we finally reach the top everything is serene and we can still hear the shimmer of the flames beneath us. Then we hear that wonderful unison line from the violins, spinning higher and higher, and at last settling…it is an awesome journey, so tangible that I can almost touch it.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Celloman said:


> I'm convinced that the orchestral interlude in Act 3 of Siegfried in which the titular character fights his way through the flames to get to the sleeping Brunnhilde is one of the four, maybe three, greatest moments in the Ring cycle. This is a supreme example of the art of transition. Wagner gives us Siegfried's horn theme in blazing color, then breaks up this theme motivically as Siegfried forges on through the heat. The flames yield to the "sleep" theme, and when we finally reach the top everything is serene and we can still hear the shimmer of the flames beneath us. Then we hear that wonderful unison line from the violins, spinning higher and higher, and at last settling…it is an awesome journey, so tangible that I can almost touch it.


Wonderful. And you stopped before describing the transfigured atmosphere on the heights, a sensation we have not had anywhere prior to this, of pure light and freshness and tenderness and something new being born. Wagner was wise to take time out for _Tristan_ and _Meistersinger_, learn new things, find a wife, and experience marital bliss. This whole third act is in itself a "Siegfried Idyll," a glorious, happy juncture in his life and work.


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

There is no time up there. Only wonder.

I'll be listening to Siegfried tonight.


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## anmhe (Feb 10, 2015)

When we speak of Wagner's works, we rarely refer to the first three (Das Liebesverbot, Die Feen and Rienzi). Every now and then I try to listen to them, but find myself truly unable to enjoy them. Does anyone have any suggestions for recordings of these works that may change my mind?


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

anmhe said:


> When we speak of Wagner's works, we rarely refer to the first three (Das Liebesverbot, Die Feen and Rienzi). Every now and then I try to listen to them, but find myself truly unable to enjoy them. Does anyone have any suggestions for recordings of these works that may change my mind?


There is no recording of _Rienzi _that does it justice. A masterwork it is not - it's as long as Wagner's other big works, but not nearly as inspired - but it certainly deserves a good recording as much as all the miscellaneous Donizetti and Rossini we've been showered with. Jonas Kaufmann recorded "Rienzi's Prayer" beautifully; we can gather a cast around him, but I have no suggestions. I suspect _Rienzi_ would be as difficult to cast as Meyerbeer's operas, and at least as much in need of really charismatic vocal/dramatic talent to make it "go."

I don't know _Die Feen_ and _Das Liebesverbot_ at all.


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

Itullian said:


> There is no time up there. Only wonder.
> 
> I'll be listening to Siegfried tonight.


Which version did you opt for?


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

Barbebleu said:


> Which version did you opt for?


Furtwangler RAI


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## Celloman (Sep 30, 2006)

Itullian said:


> Furtwangler RAI


I just finished listening to that cycle. The orchestra sounds a bit flabby, but Furtwangler knows how to pace the drama. Martha Modl was revelatory as Brunnhilde.


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

Celloman said:


> I just finished listening to that cycle. The orchestra sounds a bit flabby, but Furtwangler knows how to pace the drama. Martha Modl was revelatory as Brunnhilde.


Yes, in spite of some flabby playing its one of my favorites for Furty's masterful conducting.


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## Gaspard de la Nuit (Oct 20, 2014)

Celloman said:


> I just finished listening to that cycle. The orchestra sounds a bit flabby, but Furtwangler knows how to pace the drama. Martha Modl was revelatory as Brunnhilde.


She sounds the best on recording of all the Brunnhildes, the drama and power of her voice actually come through somehow, which was a frustration of Nilsson in particular with regard to recording.


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## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

Celloman said:


> I just finished listening to that cycle. The orchestra sounds a bit flabby, but Furtwangler knows how to pace the drama. Martha Modl was revelatory as Brunnhilde.


Martha Modl said as much- though with a characteristically diplomatic gloss.

She told Lanfranco Rasponi in _The Last of the Prima Donnas _that she was especially fond of Furtwangler's conducting of the RAI _Ring_ in general- and in particular of his sympathetic treatment of "Wotan's Farewell Music" in accompanying her- but that the RAI playing, though "good" (a generous over assessment) was no match for the strings of the Vienna Philharmonic.

Yeah, "Italian" orchestras.


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## Celloman (Sep 30, 2006)

Gaspard de la Nuit said:


> She sounds the best on recording of all the Brunnhildes, the drama and power of her voice actually come through somehow, which was a frustration of Nilsson in particular with regard to recording.


Actually, I think I like Astrid Varnay in the Krauss '53 just a tiny bit more. But that's just my opinion. I _love_ Varnay's expressive inflections - they ride up my back like a warm chill!

Nilsson is better as an Isolde than a Brunnhilde, it seems. Maybe if I listened to her in a recording other than the Solti, I would change my mind. Varnay and Modl leave her in the dust.


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

Celloman said:


> I just finished listening to that cycle. The orchestra sounds a bit flabby, but Furtwangler knows how to pace the drama. Martha Modl was revelatory as Brunnhilde.


I have Furty's live Ring as well. And enjoy it as well.


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

Itullian said:


> Furtwangler RAI


Was this a revisit or first time hearing?


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

Barbebleu said:


> Was this a revisit or first time hearing?


A revisit after a long time.


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

Itullian said:


> A revisit after a long time.


I can empathise with that. I do like to revisit old friends. The more I acquire the less time I have to listen to old favourites. That's why I like this forum. Someone always reminds of something I haven't listened to in a while and I can resurrect it.


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

Itullian said:


> A revisit after a long time.


What do you think of his La Scala Ring?


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

Barbebleu said:


> What do you think of his La Scala Ring?


Excellent, but just a tad fast. I like his RAI conducting better I think.


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## alan davis (Oct 16, 2013)

Most of my favourites have already been mentioned so I'll add the first fifteen minutes or so of Tannhauser.


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## SiegendesLicht (Mar 4, 2012)

The prelude to Rienzi. I don't think it's been mentioned before. I think it is lovely.


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

SiegendesLicht said:


> The prelude to Rienzi. I don't think it's been mentioned before. I think it is lovely.


Allmacht'ger vater.


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## Steatopygous (Jul 5, 2015)

Barbebleu said:


> Allmacht'ger vater.


Yes, but hours and hours of listening for those few minutes. It's like Verdi or Mozart: Wagner's list of really great operas is so long, I don't often get to the also-rans. Ring, Parsifal, Tristan, Meistersingers, and I particularly like the Dutchman, then there's Tannhauser ... well, you get my drift. What Wagner shall I listen tonight, Rienzi or Gotterdamerung? That's a tough one... (not)


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

Steatopygous said:


> Yes, but hours and hours of listening for those few minutes. It's like Verdi or Mozart: Wagner's list of really great operas is so long, I don't often get to the also-rans. Ring, Parsifal, Tristan, Meistersingers, and I particularly like the Dutchman, then there's Tannhauser ... well, you get my drift. What Wagner shall I listen tonight, Rienzi or Gotterdamerung? That's a tough one... (not)


So basically we are saying that Rienzi can be summed up as an overture and an aria? I think that's fair!!


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Barbebleu said:


> So basically we are saying that Rienzi can be summed up as an overture and an aria? I think that's fair!!


I don't think we know what it can be summed up as. There is no worthy recording to judge it by, and given the present state of singing I don't know who, besides Jonas Kaufmann, is likely to give us one.


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

Woodduck said:


> I don't think we know what it can be summed up as. There is no worthy recording to judge it by, and given the present state of singing I don't know who, besides Jonas Kaufmann, is likely to give us one.


I was actually being sarcastic but that's the problem with social media forums. Nuances are missed and you can't see the expression on someone's face when they make tongue in cheek remarks. Pretty pointless really making any kind of remark that's not sticking to the point. Btw I have two recordings of Rienzi, the one by Hollreiser and the one by Heger. Neither have convinced me that there is anything more to the opera than the overture and Rienzi's aria.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Barbebleu said:


> I was actually being sarcastic but that's the problem with social media forums. Nuances are missed and you can't see the expression on someone's face when they make tongue in cheek remarks. Pretty pointless really making any kind of remark that's not sticking to the point. Btw I have two recordings of Rienzi, the one by Hollreiser and the one by Heger. Neither have convinced me that there is anything more to the opera than the overture and Rienzi's aria.


You may well be right. Wagner wanted to "out-Meyerbeer Meyerbeer" and seems to have made rather a heavy-handed job of it. Meyerbeer doesn't survive without great singers, and I suspect _Rienzi_ doesn't either, if indeed it's even worthwhile with them. I'd like to have had a recording with the late Jon Vickers and the great Christa Ludwig in the trouser role of Adriano. Nowadays I'd take Kaufmann and - who?

P.S. Emoticons work pretty well...


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

P.S. Emoticons work pretty well... [/QUOTE]

They don't have enough emoticons to express all my emotions!!:lol:


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

The music in Nibelheim and when they bring Alberich back up.
And want and take the Ring.

Spine chilling


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## SiegendesLicht (Mar 4, 2012)

Alberich:

_Zertrümmert! Zerknickt!
Der Traurigen traurigster Knecht!_

Crushed! Shattered!
The most wretched of all wretched slaves!

Wotan:

_Nun halt' ich, was mich erhebt,
der Mächtigen mächtigsten Herrn!_

Now I hold that which will raise me
To be the mightiest of all mighty lords!

*He puts the ring on his finger*

Now, I know those are entirely different stories, but somehow Frodo standing at the edge of the Mount of Doom with that ring just keeps coming into my mental field of vision when I hear that


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

Loge's final narration at the end of Rheingold where he contemplates his next plan of action.


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## Celloman (Sep 30, 2006)

I just finished listening to Act 2 of Parsifal. Wagner's final work is often described as uplifting and transcendent, but I'm reminded that it also contains music of almost unspeakable pain and horror. I find Act 2 to be a harrowing experience that leaves me anguished and exhausted, and I'm in desperate need of Act 3 so I can feel whole again.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Celloman said:


> I just finished listening to Act 2 of Parsifal. Wagner's final work is often described as uplifting and transcendent, but I'm reminded that it also contains music of almost unspeakable pain and horror. I find Act 2 to be a harrowing experience that leaves me anguished and exhausted, and I'm in desperate need of Act 3 so I can feel whole again.


And sometimes the agony and the ecstasy are in the same music at the same time! A record reviewer once described the music of _Parsifal_ as "uniquely expressive." Sometimes I feel that he was exactly right.

With _Tristan_ Wagner went beyond what music was thought able to say. In a subtler way, he did it again with _Parsifal_. Here is how several great composers responded to it:

Hugo Wolf was a student at the time of the 1882 Festival, yet still managed to find money for tickets to see Parsifal twice. He emerged overwhelmed: "Colossal - Wagner's most inspired, sublimest creation." He reiterated this view in a postcard from Bayreuth in 1883: "Parsifal is without doubt by far the most beautiful and sublime work in the whole field of Art."[32] Gustav Mahler was also present in 1883 and he wrote to a friend; "I can hardly describe my present state to you. When I came out of the Festspielhaus, completely spellbound, I understood that the greatest and most painful revelation had just been made to me, and that I would carry it unspoiled for the rest of my life."[33] Max Reger simply noted that "When I first heard Parsifal at Bayreuth I was fifteen. I cried for two weeks and then became a musician." Alban Berg described Parsifal in 1909 as "magnificent, overwhelming,"[34] and Jean Sibelius, visiting the Festival in 1894 said "Nothing in the world has made so overwhelming an impression on me. All my innermost heart-strings throbbed... I cannot begin to tell you how Parsifal has transported me. Everything I do seems so cold and feeble by its side.That is really something."[35] Claude Debussy thought the characters and plot ludicrous, but nevertheless in 1903 wrote that musically it was "Incomparable and bewildering, splendid and strong. Parsifal is one of the loveliest monuments of sound ever raised to the serene glory of music."

What is there to add?


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## Steatopygous (Jul 5, 2015)

Woodduck said:


> And sometimes the agony and the ecstasy are in the same music at the same time! A record reviewer once described the music of _Parsifal_ as "uniquely expressive." Sometimes I feel that he was exactly right.
> 
> With _Tristan_ Wagner went beyond what music was thought able to say. In a subtler way, he did it again with _Parsifal_. Here is how several great composers responded to it:
> 
> ...


I can give you some more quotes: 
Wagner is the Puccini of music: Beachcomber
Wagner's music is better than it sounds: Bill Nye
I love Wagner, but the music I prefer is that of a cat hung up by its tail outside a window and trying to stick to the panes of glass with its claws. -Charles Baudelaire 
Wagner has beautiful moments but awful quarter hours. - Rossini

Sorry. Couldn't resist.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Steatopygous said:


> I can give you some more quotes:
> Wagner is the Puccini of music: Beachcomber
> Wagner's music is better than it sounds: Bill Nye
> I love Wagner, but the music I prefer is that of a cat hung up by its tail outside a window and trying to stick to the panes of glass with its claws. -Charles Baudelaire
> ...


Try a little harder next time.


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## Balthazar (Aug 30, 2014)

Steatopygous said:


> Wagner's music is better than it sounds: Bill Nye


I believe it was the brilliant Mark Twain who originally came up with this one.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Balthazar said:


> I believe it was the brilliant Mark Twain who originally came up with this one.


I always accepted that common attribution until I read that he was actually quoting the younger humorist Edgar Wilson (a.k.a. Bill Nye, _not_ the science guy), no doubt savoring the wit. Twain enjoyed Wagner's operas, attending a number of them, although he had some amusingly pointed things to say about the attendees at Bayreuth.


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## Balthazar (Aug 30, 2014)

I stand corrected. Thanks! :tiphat:


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## Steatopygous (Jul 5, 2015)

Woodduck said:


> Try a little harder next time.


Obviously, with my good friend Oscar, I can resist everything except temptation.


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)




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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Itullian said:


>


"Without genius, talent is merely an affliction."

"And you have both, I presume?"

"Yes."

:lol:


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Steatopygous said:


> I can give you some more quotes:
> Wagner is the Puccini of music: Beachcomber
> Wagner's music is better than it sounds: Bill Nye
> I love Wagner, but the music I prefer is that of a cat hung up by its tail outside a window and trying to stick to the panes of glass with its claws. -Charles Baudelaire
> ...


"have witnessed and greatly enjoyed the first act of everything which Wagner created, but the effect on me has always been so powerful that one act was quite sufficient; whenever I have witnessed two acts I have gone away physically exhausted; and whenever I have ventured an entire opera the result has been the next thing to suicide."
- Mark Twain in Eruption


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## jflatter (Mar 31, 2010)

I have been off the forum recently due to life getting in the way but saw this thread.

A favourite scene of mine is the scene before the fight in Act 1 of Lohengrin where Heinrich starts with Mein Herr und Gott, nun ruf ich dich. A great build up that leads to choral fireworks.


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## SiegendesLicht (Mar 4, 2012)

jflatter said:


> I have been off the forum recently due to life getting in the way but saw this thread.
> 
> A favourite scene of mine is the scene before the fight in Act 1 of Lohengrin where Heinrich starts with Mein Herr und Gott, nun ruf ich dich. A great build up that leads to choral fireworks.


Oh yes! And the scene after the fight as well, the "Siegesweise" and the mighty chorus.


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## howlingfantods (Jul 27, 2015)

My favorite chunk of music is the middle of Act 1 in Parsifal, from where Gurnemanz starts "Vom Bade kehrt der Konig heim" through the Transformation Music and the knights' and squires' choruses to when Titurel starts singing. 

My favorite scene dramatically is Act 2 Scene 4 of Die Walkure -- Siegmund refuses to go with Brunnhilde to Walhall if it means leaving Sieglinde behind, and his passion is so overwhelming that Brunnhilde agrees to disobey Wotan and spare him. I especially love the part where Siegfried tells her he's peaceing out on the whole concept "So grusse mir Walhall, grusse mir Wotan..."


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