# Your favourite recording of Beethoven's ninth symphony



## tempo

What's your favourite recording of Beethoven's ninth symphony - and why? 

Also, do you generally (as seems to be the norm) favour the 'old school' ninths of Karajan, Klemperer and Furtwängler or the so-called 'HIPster' ninths of Mackerras, Immerseel and Gardiner? Then there are the recordings that have a foot in both camps, like Chailly (fast tempi but 'traditional' scores) and Rattle (using the new Del Mar 'urtext' but performed at slow tempi).

I myself particularly like the Paavo Järvi, Deutsche Kammerphilharmonie Bremen and the Thomas Dausgaard, Swedish Chamber Orchestra Örebro for their clarity, brisk (but never rushed) tempi and general charm.

So, what about you?


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## Weston

I'm still looking for it. Back in the late 80s I had taped a live performance off the radio, but have since lost it and the performers. Something about the performance or the mic placement caused the four soloists in the last movement to ring out louder than the orchestra after the second descending "alle menschen - alle menschen" (sp?). It almost seemed to symbolize the idea of brotherhood triumphing over adversity better than other versions I've heard. I've not been able to find one similar since.

And I prefer old school larger than life performances.


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## ptr

I usually reach for Brüggen's latest HIP on Glossa! His interpretations make sense to me and may well be on the opposite side of what Weston prefer (?) .. I quite often find the over-romanticized ballooning versions of the pre WWII generations of conductors incomprehensible (even if there is a few exceptions) with little to do with (my) Beethoven!

/ptr


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## tempo

ptr said:


> I usually reach for Brüggen's latest HIP on Glossa! His interpretations make sense to me and may well be on the opposite side of what Weston prefer (?) .. I quite often find the over-romanticized ballooning versions of the pre WWII generations of conductors incomprehensible (even if there is a few exceptions) with little to do with (my) Beethoven!
> 
> /ptr


I like that one - except for the horribly flat brass in the middle of the third movement!


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## ptr

tempo said:


> I like that one - except for the horribly flat brass in the middle of the third movement!


That's HIP for You! 

/ptr


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## Guest

To be honest, although I've got several versions (Barenboim live 2012, MacKerras OAE, Karajan '77, Toscanini '56) it's difficult to tell the difference between them. I've not got the stamina to listen to the Ninth through more than once at a time, so it takes some time to accumulate the awareness of variations.


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## GGluek

I much prefer performances where the andante is taken at a flowing clip, as Beethoven clearly meant it to be, rather than at a deadly slow tempo. Of "old school" performances, there are a number of points in the old Munch/BSO recording where he gets is exactly right.


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## tempo

MacLeod said:


> To be honest, although I've got several versions (Barenboim live 2012, MacKerras OAE, Karajan '77, Toscanini '56) it's difficult to tell the difference between them. I've not got the stamina to listen to the Ninth through more than once at a time, so it takes some time to accumulate the awareness of variations.


I'd understand that with the other symphonies, but to me the Ninth always contains the most obvious differences between different performances. I only need a quick listen to a one or two key moments in each movement.


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## tempo

GGluek said:


> I much prefer performances where the andante is taken at a flowing clip, as Beethoven clearly meant it to be, rather than at a deadly slow tempo. Of "old school" performances, there are a number of points in the old Munch/BSO recording where he gets is exactly right.


I heartily agree! To me, it's screamingly obvious that Beethoven's metronome markings for the Ninth are basically correct - particularly in the third movement.

I think it (the third movement) sounds absurd at 17 or 18 minutes long - it should come in at around 12 to 13 minutes, 14 max.

I have no idea why Rattle takes it so slow in his ''Del Mar editions'' performance with the Vienna Philharmonic. I can understand obviously old-school conductors like Barenboim clinging to ''the way it used to be done'', but can't figure out why Rattle opted against taking it a bit faster than 17 minutes!


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## tempo

GGluek said:


> Of "old school" performances, there are a number of points in the old Munch/BSO recording where he gets is exactly right.


Completely agree with this too.


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## Guest

tempo said:


> I'd understand that with the other symphonies, but to me the Ninth always contains the most obvious differences between different performances. I only need a quick listen to a one or two key moments in each movement.


It's not so much that I think the differences can't be heard, as that the Ninth is so long and draining that any attempt on my part to _encompass _the differences - so that I can decide whether I prefer one interpretation over another - is liable to failure due to exhaustion!


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## GGluek

Rattle I think is too self-absorbed. Heard his Ninth in the car on the radio. Didn't get past the 1st movement, but what I heard had very little relationship to what i think Beethoven wanted. Also heard a scherzo of the Fifth where the trio was at least 20% faster than I'd ever heard it done - played that way just because he could, not because Beethoven wrote it that way.


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## tempo

GGluek said:


> Rattle I think is too self-absorbed. Heard his Ninth in the car on the radio. Didn't get past the 1st movement, but what I heard had very little relationship to what i think Beethoven wanted. Also heard a scherzo of the Fifth where the trio was at least 20% faster than I'd ever heard it done - played that way just because he could, not because Beethoven wrote it that way.


I think I've heard something similar said before about Rattle.

I think the late Sir Charles Mackerras, bless him, conducted a fine Ninth. Pity his excellent version with the Scottish Philharmonia is somewhat undermined by at least one audience member with such a severe illness that at times it sounds more like a Doctor's waiting room than a concert.


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## Andreas

I have a weakness for Ferenc Fricsay's 1958 recording with the Berlin Philharmonic. Mainly because it's the version used in A Clockwork Orange (though aparently on the soundtrack album it was replaced by Karajan's 1963 recording).

Other than that, I'd probably choose David Zinman's recording with the Tonhalle Orchestra Zurich. It's a wonderful combination of modern sound, chamber-orchestra-like precision and HIP-inspired tempi.


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## AClockworkOrange

My first choice of Ninth is Furtwangler conducting the Vienna Philharmonic. I could be wrong but I think it was from 1952 (don't have it to hand at present). It may be an older, mono recording but it is my favourite interpretation. It was also my first.

There are others I enjoy greatly but none have been able to take the top spot. Tennstedt came closest with the London Philharmonic (1988 I think) and Harnoncourt did well with Chamber Orch of Europe. I don't mind Barenboim with the Staatskapelle but I can't get into is West-Eastern... Orchestra at all. It just does nothing for me for some reason. I haven't heard Klemperer yet so I may have to remedy that, preferably with the Philharmonia.

As far as direction, I have no problem giving HIP interpretations a chance but I much prefer the "old school" interpretations.


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## StlukesguildOhio

Although there are many fine choices... and I probably have far too many of them... my two favorites at the moment would be:


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## SixFootScowl

My most favorite is Fricsay. I also like very much Blomstedt 1980, Maazel 1978, Masur 1974 and others. I have about 31 Ninths, one in the Wand 9 symphony set I just ordered. Several I have not listened to yet. The main way I judge a Ninth is by the vocals.


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## Itullian

Bohm and Klemperer here. from their complete cycles.


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## Mister Man

Fifteen characters.








(Click)


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## LovroVonMatacic

First that comes to my mind would be Abbado with the Berliner Philharmoniker.

As for historical recordings, I guess it would be Furtwangler with the Vienna Philharmoniker.

It's great to join this forum and hope to interact with like-minded folks more.


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## DavidA

The one I go to is most is Karajan 1977.


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## hpowders

Any of the 3 or 4 Karajan performances will do. Abbado's is okay too.


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## sabrina

It is not my favourite, but it is very special for me: Berlin, December 1989, Bernstein conducting a huge European orchestra, when a change was sung in the recitative: instead of Freude is sung Freiheit...


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## Itullian

This one's always been a favorite as well.


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## SixFootScowl

sabrina said:


> It is not my favourite, but it is very special for me: Berlin, December 1989, Bernstein conducting a huge European orchestra, when a change was sung in the recitative: instead of Freude is sung Freiheit...


I have that one. My only Bernstein Ninth. I believe it involves several different choral groups and even multiple orchestras.


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## Vaneyes

Itullian said:


> This one's always been a favorite as well.


Yep, good choice.


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## Guest

There is really an embarrassment of riches for the 9th. I have several that I love. Furtwangler's Bayreuth recording on EMI. Karajan's 60's DG recording. Fricsay's DG recording. Vanska on BIS. Szell with Cleveland. Gardiner. I enjoy them all.


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## Guest

I understand the historical import of the Bernstein Ode to Freedom recording, but I really found it lacking. I can't remember just now why that was, but it just didn't impress me.

I also recently picked up Klemperer on EMI. I am a sucker for Klemperer.


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## hpowders

DrMike said:


> I understand the historical import of the Bernstein Ode to Freedom recording, but I really found it lacking. I can't remember just now why that was, but it just didn't impress me.
> 
> I also recently picked up Klemperer on EMI. I am a sucker for Klemperer.


Yes. The Bernstein Berlin performance didn't impress me either.


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## Guest

The OP (like so many here on this wonderful forum) asks me for something I never want, namely, a _favourite_ recording. I hope I never have one, for fear of ossification.


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## hpowders

TalkingHead said:


> The OP (like so many here on this wonderful forum) asks me for something I never want, namely, a _favourite_ recording. I hope I never have one, for fear of ossification.


You make a good point. That's why I collect multiple performances of my favorite music. I currently have 10 Beethoven 9ths.


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## revdrdave

tempo said:


> I think it (the third movement) sounds absurd at 17 or 18 minutes long - it should come in at around 12 to 13 minutes, 14 max.


Sorry but I'm just the opposite. I think the third movement bests reveals its glories at 17 or 18 minutes, which is why I really like Karl Bohm's performance. And, no, I don't want to get into an argument about Beethoven's metronome markings...


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## DavidA

DrMike said:


> I understand the historical import of the Bernstein Ode to Freedom recording, but I really found it lacking. I can't remember just now why that was, but it just didn't impress me.
> 
> I also recently picked up Klemperer on EMI. I am a sucker for Klemperer.


Klemperer's ninth is a titanic struggle towards joy! I have two performances by him. I defy anyone not to be impressed!


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## DavidA

The best slow movement IMO which gets the best of all worlds is Karajan 1977. Really inward!

Comes in at 16'50"

To me 12'50" (Chailly) is far too fast.


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## hpowders

DavidA said:


> The best slow movement IMO which gets the best of all worlds is Karajan 1977. Really inward!
> 
> Comes in at 16'50"
> 
> To me 12'50" (Chailly) is far too fast.


I agree with you. Chailly absolutely mauls the Pastoral also by playing it way too fast. He takes all the emotion out of it. I prefer "old school" Beethoven represented by Karajan and Wand.


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## RobertKC

Because no one has mentioned my two favorite recordings of Beethoven’s 9th, I’ll offer my 2 cents. 

My requirements of a recording are a performance that engages me, and good audio quality. The Adagio is my favorite movement – so that weighs heavily in my evaluation. 

My order of preference:

Leibowitz / Royal Philharmonic Orchestra / 1961 / Chesky CD (ADD). This is my favorite balance between performance and audio quality. I think that this performance flows beautifully. This is my favorite Adagio – 12:28 - but it doesn’t sound hurried to me. I’m not a musician, so I don’t know how to describe the performance – perhaps “lyrical”? The sound quality of the Chesky Records CD is good enough to not interfere with the music. 

Abbado / Berlin Philharmonic / 2002 / DG 24 bit 96 kHz FLAC file. I enjoy this performance, and it has the best audio quality of my recordings, except that the final movement is broken into 2 files and there is a noticeable audio dropout. Adagio: 12:48.

Others:

In a special category: Furtwangler / Philharmonia Orchestra – Lucerne / 1954 / Tahra SACD – mastering 24 bit 192 kHz. Here’s a slow interpretation that to me is interesting. Adagio: 19:41 – and simply beautiful. Surprisingly decent sound quality for a 1954 live recording – not up to modern audio standards – but good enough to enjoy the performance. Worth owning IMHO, as an alternative performance. (I’m listening to this recording while I write this.) 

Solti / Chicago Symphony / 1972 / Penguin Classics CD (ADD). This in my opinion is an example of a slower performance that doesn’t sound ponderous. I enjoy it. Adagio: 19:46 – a beautiful slow performance. Sound quality is good enough to not interfere with enjoying the performance. 

Muti / Philadelphia / 1988 / Seraphim Classics CD (DDD). If I recall correctly this was a low priced CD. Enjoyable performance and acceptable audio quality. Adagio: 16:04.

On LP, I have Karl Bohm / DG / 1972. I seldom listen to these LPs – largely because of the inconvenience of LPs. As I recall the Adagio is good.

In my collection, last, and least, is Karajan / Berliner Philharmoniker / 1962 / DG SACD (ADD). Ponderous, least emotionally engaging performance. Adagio: 16:26. Worst sound quality of my modern (i.e., post 1960) recordings. I never listen to this recording.

(I also own the Furtwangler 1942 recording with the Berliner Philharmoniker that was recorded by an individual from a radio broadcast onto 78 rpm discs. The sound quality of the 1942 recording is very poor, so this is of interest to me only for historic purposes.)


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## Guest

DavidA said:


> Klemperer's ninth is a titanic struggle towards joy! I have two performances by him. I defy anyone not to be impressed!


Klemperer rarely fails to impress me. I have heard that his live 9th on the Testament label is one not to miss - unfortunately, most of my purchases are through iTunes, and they do not offer that performance. I purchased the EMI studio recording of the 9th. I also have his 3rd, 5th, 7th, and 6th - the EMI GROC recordings. In addition, I have his Missa Solemnis and Fidelio - one of my favorite Beethoven conductors. I keep meaning to add his recording of the piano concertos with Barenboim, except for the fact that I have never been a big fan of Barenboim at the piano. One of my earliest purchases was a recording of Beethoven's famous sonatas by Barenboim, and it took Kempff to rescue these works for me, so indifferent was I to them after hearing Barenboim. Is the counterbalance of Klemperer enough to make these worth my while? I had a similar feeling with Abbado's recent traversal of Mozart. His recording of Mozart's later symphonies was very ho-hum and unimpressive, but adding Carmignola to record the violin concertos saved him for me.


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## kv466

Rene Leibowitz and the Royal Philharmonic Orchestra, 1961

Andre Previn and the Royal Philharmonic Orchestra, c/1991


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## Guest

I like the following three versions best all:

•	Wilhelm Furtwängler/Bayreuth Festival Orchestra, 1951. 
•	Otto Klemperer/Philharmonia (live recording of 15 Nov 1957 Royal Festival Hall). 
•	John Eliot Gardiner/Orchestre Révolutionnaire et Romantique. Original instruments/HIP principles.


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## DavidA

DrMike said:


> Klemperer rarely fails to impress me. I have heard that his live 9th on the Testament label is one not to miss - unfortunately, most of my purchases are through iTunes, and they do not offer that performance. I purchased the EMI studio recording of the 9th. I also have his 3rd, 5th, 7th, and 6th - the EMI GROC recordings. In addition, I have his Missa Solemnis and Fidelio - one of my favorite Beethoven conductors. I keep meaning to add his recording of the piano concertos with Barenboim, except for the fact that I have never been a big fan of Barenboim at the piano. One of my earliest purchases was a recording of Beethoven's famous sonatas by Barenboim, and it took Kempff to rescue these works for me, so indifferent was I to them after hearing Barenboim. Is the counterbalance of Klemperer enough to make these worth my while? I had a similar feeling with Abbado's recent traversal of Mozart. His recording of Mozart's later symphonies was very ho-hum and unimpressive, but adding Carmignola to record the violin concertos saved him for me.


Barenboim and K are interesting!


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## RobertKC

Partita said:


> I like the following three versions best all:
> 
> •	Wilhelm Furtwängler/Bayreuth Festival Orchestra, 1951.
> •	Otto Klemperer/Philharmonia (live recording of 15 Nov 1957 Royal Festival Hall).
> •	John Eliot Gardiner/Orchestre Révolutionnaire et Romantique. Original instruments/HIP principles.


I just bought the 1957 Klemperer. Thanks for the recommendation.


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## Guest

RobertKC said:


> I just bought the 1957 Klemperer. Thanks for the recommendation.


There is both a studio version and a live recording from 1957. It's the live version that is the better.


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## realdealblues

Historical (Mono):
Toscanini/NBC Symphony 1952
Furtwangler/Berlin Philharmonic 1942

Traditional (Stereo):
Fricsay/Berlin Philharmonic
Szell/Cleveland Orchestra
Wand/NDR Symphony Orchestra

HIP:
Norrington/SWR Radio Symphony Orchestra

I like Bernstein, Bohm, Klemperer, Leibowitz, Karajan, Kempe and a few others listed as well. Most of the HIP recordings with "Chamber Sized Orchestras" just fail when it comes to the 9th Symphony for me.


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## Guest

realdealblues said:


> Furtwangler/Berlin Philharmonic 1942


I have that one too, as well as the Bayreuth and Lucerne. I was going to include the Berlin 1942 as a fourth choice but changed my mind. I find it to be the most powerful of the three. I used to like it a lot but I now find it just a bit too heavy in the drama department. How do you think it compares against Bayreuth? I find the latter to have all the atmosphere that is necessary, if one likes a lot of atmosphere, and that after listening it's like having had a religious experience. Modern HIP versions sound nothing like any of these older versions, being much leaner, faster and more matter of fact.


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## AClockworkOrange

AClockworkOrange said:


> My first choice of Ninth is Furtwangler conducting the Vienna Philharmonic. I could be wrong but I think it was from 1952 (don't have it to hand at present). It may be an older, mono recording but it is my favourite interpretation. It was also my first.
> 
> There are others I enjoy greatly but none have been able to take the top spot. Tennstedt came closest with the London Philharmonic (1988 I think) and Harnoncourt did well with Chamber Orch of Europe. I don't mind Barenboim with the Staatskapelle but I can't get into is West-Eastern... Orchestra at all. It just does nothing for me for some reason. I haven't heard Klemperer yet so I may have to remedy that, preferably with the Philharmonia.
> 
> As far as direction, I have no problem giving HIP interpretations a chance but I much prefer the "old school" interpretations.


I would just like to update my choices slightly as I have heard more recordings since posting previously.

I stand by my Furtwangler selection and add his Lucerne Tahra recording and the 1942 recording.

Harnoncourt however, has slipped *considerably* down my list.

After the Furtwangler recordings, my preferred recordings of the Ninth are:
- Fricsay & the Berliner Philharmoniker
- Tennstedt & the LPO (both recordings)
- Barenboim & the Staatskapelle Berlin
- Kempe & the Münchner Philharmoniker

Bernstein - Wiener Philharmoniker and of course the 'Ode to Freedom' rate highly but are just edged out by a fraction. Bernstein is superb but he faces extremely stiff competition here.

Klemperer has grown me a great deal so he may move up the list very soon too.

Harnoncourt loses me particularly in the vocal movement. A movement which can make or break the piece.

Chailly and Celibidache do even less for me. Chailly is simply too fast. I appreciate what he is trying to do but it does absolutely nothing for me. Celibidache on the other hand is an exercise in endurance - I love his Bruckner, truly, but this is Beethoven and what illuminates Bruckner, for me ruins Beethoven's Ninth.

If I had to pick a favourite and a back-up, it would likely be Furtwangler & the Philharmonia with Fricsay & the BPO as my second choice.


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## realdealblues

Partita said:


> I have that one too, as well as the Bayreuth and Lucerne. I was going to include the Berlin 1942 as a fourth choice but changed my mind. I find it to be the most powerful of the three. I used to like it a lot but I now find it just a bit too heavy in the drama department. How do you think it compares against Bayreuth? I find the latter to have all the atmosphere that is necessary, if one likes a lot of atmosphere, and that after listening it's like having had a religious experience. Modern HIP versions sound nothing like any of these older versions, being much leaner, faster and more matter of fact.


I have both Beyreuth and Lucerne as well. Yes, Berlin 1942 is very dramatic. But for me, with WWII in full swing and Furtwangler knowledge of what's happening, I find it creates a very thick and heavy atmosphere. For me Furt's searching and trying to find some form of hope in a very dark time and it just makes it that much more powerful. Very much like a religious experience for myself. It's Furtwangler's Beethoven, not Beethoven's Beethoven and I just find it the most Furtwangler-ish, not that that's a word...lol. There is nothing wrong with the others, they are all fine, but those after the War don't have that feeling of desperation which to me is what set's this one apart and makes it more "special" in my eyes than the others.

My issue with HIP is the Chamber Sized Orchestras don't sound full enough. The leaner approach just don't work for me with the 9th. I don't mind the tempos. Paavo Jarvi's a prime example. His recordings of Symphonies 1-8 are fine, and his tempos and general take on Symphony 9 are fine, but it just sounds too wimpy and weak in too many places. I can't remember for sure, but I think it was Szell who used a double sized Brass Section in his recording to get some muscle and power behind it and that's what the 9th needs for me, muscle and power!

I didn't know Beethoven, but there is no doubt in my mind that if Beethoven were alive today and were actually able to "hear" both takes that he would think the same. He would want a larger orchestra providing some muscle and balls for his 9th.


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## moody

I seem to have so many versions and in any case it's more a matter of interesting versions rather than favourite.
Here are five.
Furtwaengler. Live 1942 ,old Philharmonic Hall ,I believe this to be from Berlin Radio's archives rather than an individual,great stuff.
Bruno Walter, Live 1947,London, Isobel,Baillie,sop.,Kathleen Ferrier, Contralto, Heddle Nash,tenor, William Parsons,Bass. LPO.
Leopold Stokowski, 1968. Heather Harper,sop.,Helen Watts,cont., Alexander Young,Ten.,Donald McIntyre,bass. London Symphony. Didn't know what to expect with Stokowski in Beethoven,but I was most impressed--he was ancient but sounds in his thirties.
Fritz Busch,Live, Radio Denmark Orchestra and Chorus ,1950. Great conductor and he moves things along apace !


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## KenOC

Can you search threads on this forum? If you can, I certainly don't know how. So I'm unsure if the Fricsay has been mentioned...


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## DavidA

KenOC said:


> Can you search threads on this forum? If you can, I certainly don't know how. So I'm unsure if the Fricsay has been mentioned...


It has by a couple of people.


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## SixFootScowl

Pretty sure I mentioned Fricsay as that is my favorite Ninth of the 31 I own. But there are many listed above that I have not heard yet--a shame!


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## KenOC

DavidA said:


> It has by a couple of people.


Many thanks. Well, now it's been mentioned again I guess! :tiphat:


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## Rhythm

TC’s search feature is pretty good. For those posters above who’ve been curious about how many times Fricsay has been mentioned at TC, I found Fricsay has been noted on 287 pages, sometimes three times on a page. 

Here’s the advantage. (1) Click Advanced Search. (2) Click the tab marked Search Single Content Type. (3) Type your keyword of choice, like Fricsay. (4) Scroll down, and click the button marked Posts. (5) Click Search Now. 

There you have it! I guess I’m good for something around here :tiphat:.


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## KenOC

Many thanks, I'll try that next time.


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## Itullian

realdealblues said:


> I have both Beyreuth and Lucerne as well. Yes, Berlin 1942 is very dramatic. But for me, with WWII in full swing and Furtwangler knowledge of what's happening, I find it creates a very thick and heavy atmosphere. For me Furt's searching and trying to find some form of hope in a very dark time and it just makes it that much more powerful. Very much like a religious experience for myself. It's Furtwangler's Beethoven, not Beethoven's Beethoven and I just find it the most Furtwangler-ish, not that that's a word...lol. There is nothing wrong with the others, they are all fine, but those after the War don't have that feeling of desperation which to me is what set's this one apart and makes it more "special" in my eyes than the others.
> 
> My issue with HIP is the Chamber Sized Orchestras don't sound full enough. The leaner approach just don't work for me with the 9th. I don't mind the tempos. Paavo Jarvi's a prime example. His recordings of Symphonies 1-8 are fine, and his tempos and general take on Symphony 9 are fine, but it just sounds too wimpy and weak in too many places. I can't remember for sure, but I think it was Szell who used a double sized Brass Section in his recording to get some muscle and power behind it and that's what the 9th needs for me, muscle and power!
> 
> I didn't know Beethoven, but there is no doubt in my mind that if Beethoven were alive today and were actually able to "hear" both takes that he would think the same. He would want a larger orchestra providing some muscle and balls for his 9th.


I feel that way about all his symphonies.


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## KenOC

realdealblues said:


> I didn't know Beethoven, but there is no doubt in my mind that if Beethoven were alive today and were actually able to "hear" both takes that he would think the same. He would want a larger orchestra providing some muscle and balls for his 9th.


Beethoven was quoted as saying that a force of about 60 players was right for his orchestral works. That was well before the 9th though!


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## Queequeg

I also have to go with Furtwangler, 1942. The intensity and ecstasy, especially in the finale, is unparalleled for me and the history of this concert is virtually unmatched, in the midst of World War II in Nazi Germany while Hitler was purging music, particularly those of Jewish composers, and Furtwangler was struggling to keep Germany's musical tradition alive, in complete defiance to the evil surrounding him.


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## Morimur

*Beethoven - (2011) The Symphonies (Gewandhausorchester Leipzig / Riccardo Chailly)*

View attachment 35522


_The only Beethoven symphonies cycle one needs._


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## Haydn man

I have 2 versions of the 9th (and thought that was a bit excessive)
Karajan 1977 which I would recommend
Abbado as part of his BPO box set which I also like
However it appears I have not even dipped my toe in the water compared to others


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## hpowders

Haydn man said:


> I have 2 versions of the 9th (and thought that was a bit excessive)
> Karajan 1977 which I would recommend
> Abbado as part of his BPO box set which I also like
> However it appears I have not even dipped my toe in the water compared to others


I have those two. They are both very fine performances. They are really all you need.


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## DavidA

Lope de Aguirre said:


> View attachment 35522
> 
> 
> _The only Beethoven symphonies cycle one needs._


I have this cycle but am most disappointed with the performances. Everyone seems rushed off their feet.


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## hpowders

Ha! Ha! One hates a set. One loves it. Two different worlds they live in!!!


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## realdealblues

DavidA said:


> I have this cycle but am most disappointed with the performances. Everyone seems rushed off their feet.


There are few moments here and there where I feel that way, but overall I've come to enjoy the Chailly set. In many of the early symphonies his tempos are not that much different than Toscanini or Leibowitz or even Leonard Bernstein's earlier cycle.

Symphony No. 1 for example.
Bernstein: 9:14, 5:52, 3:22, 5:55
Chailly: 8:00, 6:27, 3:13, 5:29

Other than taking a little less time at the beginning of the first movement, they aren't all that different.

Symphony No. 4
Bernstein: 10:41, 9:56, 5:56, 6:37
Chailly: 10:28, 7:42, 5:10, 6:19

Other than the slow movement which Bernstein takes at the more traditional tempo, they really aren't that far off.

Looking at the Track Times on Paavo Jarvi's newer cycle he's even closer to Chailly much of the time. Some of their movements are actually timed the exact same. There's really only a few movements here and there in which Chailly takes it quicker and I guess part of me just looks at it and says, "If Beethoven's metronome markings are actually correct and being interpreted by modern scholars correctly, in order to hear Beethoven's Beethoven, it should sound like this" and the only reason it sounds too fast is because my entire life I heard it slower than this. I pretty much started with Klemperer and it took me a long time to really think about accepting Beethoven being played faster than that...lol.


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## Guest

Itullian said:


> This one's always been a favorite as well.


Penguin classic? You mean it's a book as well??



hpowders said:


> I agree with you. Chailly absolutely mauls the Pastoral also by playing it way too fast.


Chailly makes the Pastoral a brisk, vigorous walk rather than a geriatric and sentimental ramble. I know which I prefer.


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## hpowders

MacLeod said:


> Penguin classic? You mean it's a book as well??
> 
> Chailly makes the Pastoral a brisk, vigorous walk rather than a geriatric and sentimental ramble. I know which I prefer.


You can prefer a vigorous walk all you like, but as MUSIC, Chially mauls the first movement of the Pastoral by taking it way too fast.

The tempo marking is "Allegro Ma Non Troppo". Chially disregards Beethoven's tempo indication of fast, but not too fast. Chailly's tempo is very fast.

There are so many conductors who get the first movement right, there is no need for me to waste any time on Chailly.


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## DavidA

MacLeod said:


> Chailly makes the Pastoral a brisk, vigorous walk rather than a geriatric and sentimental ramble. I know which I prefer.


It's more of a headlong dash! When you're walking in the country you tend to ramble rather than dash. Beethoven loved the country and I've no doubt he paused to catch his breath, which is more than Chailly does!


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## hpowders

DavidA said:


> It's more of a headlong dash! When you're walking in the country you tend to ramble rather than dash. Beethoven loved the country and I've no doubt he paused to catch his breath, which is more than Chailly does!


One would imagine so.


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## Guest

DavidA said:


> When you're walking in the country you tend to ramble rather than dash.


Depends whether you're trying to get out of the hail on your way to Red Tarn or warming in the sun round Buttermere!


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## DavidA

MacLeod said:


> Depends whether you're trying to get out of the hail on your way to Red Tarn or warming in the sun round Buttermere!


The storm comes later!


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## hpowders

Perhaps that countrified area was frequently inhabited by highwaymen and other brigands.
Walk fast and get the heck out of there!


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## Guest

Having just downloaded the Fricsay/BPO 1958, I can see that I prefer my no. 9 to be a little sharper too. It's all a bit sedate for my tastes, though the adagio goes quite well. The oompah band lacks oompah and the orchestra is slow to rise to the full climax of the Ode to Joy.

Back to the Karajan 1977, I think, which I wasn't so keen on to begin with...but it's grown on me greatly.


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## EDaddy

Without a doubt.


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## jflatter

I know I have come very late to the party on this thread but has anyone tried Thielemann's recording of the 9th with the VPO? I think it's the best recording of the work in years if you like non HIP Beethoven. The third movement is exquisite.


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## DiesIraeCX

jflatter said:


> I know I have come very late to the party on this thread but has anyone tried Thielemann's recording of the 9th with the VPO? I think it's the best recording of the work in years if you like non HIP Beethoven. The third movement is exquisite.


I have the Blu-ray of that performance, I admit I enjoyed it quite a bit. However, there is a tad bit of "interventionism" on Thielemann's part, for instance, the prolonged (awkward) pauses where the score doesn't call for it. Thielemann explains and attempts to justify it in his conversation with Joachim Kaiser (one of the Special Features). It's for sure one of those old-school Romantic performances, non-HIP as you say, but Thielemann does a very fine job.

My favorite/s are Karajan 1963 and Fricsay 1958. I switch back and forth between those two.


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## ArgumentativeOldGit

I used to prefer the old school approach until I heard Charles Mackerras conduct the Philharmonia in this work in Usher Hall in the Edinburgh Festival (2006, I think it was). I came out of the all, my head spinning. I have since bought recordings of that entire cycle, and count myself as a convert to modern performance practice.

But the great thing is, of course, that it doesn't ave to be either/or: I still enjoy the "old school" performances, and wouldn't be without the Furtwängler/Lucerne recording, or the live Klemperer recording from '57 on Testament. Or the LSO/Giulini recording, which has long been, and remains, a great favourite.


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## merlinus

jflatter said:


> I know I have come very late to the party on this thread but has anyone tried Thielemann's recording of the 9th with the VPO? I think it's the best recording of the work in years if you like non HIP Beethoven. The third movement is exquisite.


I am even later to this "party," but having just listened to Thielemann/VPO in 24/96 sound, it has toppled my previous favorite, Fricsay/BPO. The SQ is magnificent, as is the performance. I was filled with awe and wonder, and deeply moved.

But beware if you like HIP versions, or ones such as those by Vanska and Mackerras. This is majestic, red-blooded and dramatic Beethoven, not speeded-up LvB lite.


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## hpowders

OP: The first Karajan recording with Elizabeth Schwarzkopf, Ernst Haefliger and Otto Edelmann; Philharmonia Orchestra.


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## geralmar

Jascha Horenstein, Vienna Pro Musica; Vox, 1953. Just because it was my first... .

http://www.classicstoday.com/review/review-6899/


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## Vaneyes

Recorded 1972.


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## merlinus

My experience relative to this recording is that the first two movements and the last part of the fourth are wonderful. Solti loses his way in the third, and does not get back on track until the vocal parts of the fourth.

But the singing is marvelous!


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## Brahmsian Colors

Fritz Reiner and the Chicago Symphony


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## realdealblues

It's been 3 years since my original post on this topic...

My choices haven't changed much. The three I reach for most often when I want to hear the 9th are:









Karl Bohm/Vienna Philharmonic









Gunter Wand/NDR Symphony Orchestra









Ferenc Fricsay/Berlin Philharmonic


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## chill782002

The 1942 Furtwangler recording with the Berliner Philharmoniker, Bruno Kittel Chor, Tilla Briem, Elisabeth Hongen, Peter Anders and Rudolph Watzke. The sound is far from perfect (although the Opus Kura version sounds better than others I've heard) but the performance is uniquely intense.


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## WildThing

chill782002 said:


> The 1942 Furtwangler recording with the Berliner Philharmoniker, Bruno Kittel Chor, Tilla Briem, Elisabeth Hongen, Peter Anders and Rudolph Watzke. The sound is far from perfect (although the Opus Kura version sounds better than others I've heard) but the performance is uniquely intense.


Yes! Get the Pristine Classical remaster!


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## chill782002

Thanks, I have the Pristine Classical remaster of Furtwangler's October 1944 recording of Bruckner's 9th with the Berliner Philharmoniker. That certainly sounds a lot better than any other version of that performance that I've heard so I'll check out their remaster of the 1942 Beethoven's 9th as well. The Opus Kura is pretty good though.


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## Heck148

Haydn67 said:


> Fritz Reiner and the Chicago Symphony


Definitely...fabulous recording


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## Richard8655

Recorded at my alma mater, University of Illinois in 1972.










Since the Krannert Center (Urbana, Illinois) opened in 1969, the Chicago Symphony has performed in the Great Hall (now the Foellinger Great Hall) more than 25 times. In fact, former CSO Music Director Georg Solti loved the acoustics in Krannert so much that he recorded two of their most famous pieces-the Beethoven 9th and the Mahler 7th-in its Great Hall. The warm acoustics of the Foellinger Great Hall are a perfect match for the rich and flawless sound of the Windy City's magnificent ensemble.


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## MarkW

Because they were all the rage at the time, I got the Solti/CSO performance when it first came out (which Decca criminally splurged over all four sides of two LPs). I found the first three mivements too slow and Germanic, so pretty much stopped listening and went into the kitchen to prepare dinner. Whereupon my ears pricked up and I listened enraptured because of the extraordinary choral work by the CSO chorus (prepared by Margaret Hillis). The first time that had ever happened to me because of a chorus.


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## Pugg

​Stunning recorded, great singers and wonderful conducted.


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## DavidA

Haydn67 said:


> Fritz Reiner and the Chicago Symphony


Just listened again to this. Sublimely p,ayes slow movement


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## Dedalus

The one by Maximianno Cobra. Only problem is it's a little fast.


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## Francis Poulenc

Stokowski by far:


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## Brahmsian Colors

DavidA said:


> Just listened again to this. Sublimely p,ayes slow movement


I have never heard a better Ninth final movement than the one from this performance. To my ears, the pace of the second movement scherzo also sounds just right. Incidentally, for those who recall NBC's Huntley-Brinkley[News]Report from the mid '50s to 1970, Reiner's Beethoven Ninth scherzo was the one used each evening on that program.


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## Brahmsian Colors

Francis Poulenc said:


> Stokowski by far:


Other than the Reiner, I would also place this interpretation on my short list of superb Beethoven Ninths.


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## DavidA

WildThing said:


> Yes! Get the Pristine Classical remaster!


I'll pass on this one. I think Beethoven would too given the audience!


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## DavidA

Just listened to the Reinter again. Fist movement a bit stop / go surprisingly. Second is good while the third is sublime. Fourth is fine but worth getting for the CSO in the third movement


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## WildThing

DavidA said:


> I'll pass on this one. I think Beethoven would too given the audience!


It's a fantastic performance! But despite the tag on the video, this was not the performance given at the Fuhrer's birthday in April, it was given a month previous. Regarding the context, I think these are some fair and balanced thoughts. http://kennethwoods.net/blog1/2011/10/24/lvb-9-furtwangler-1942/

But anyone is free to pass on anything they see fit, no skin off my back! :tiphat:


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## DavidA

WildThing said:


> It's a fantastic performance! But despite the tag on the video, this was not the performance given at the Fuhrer's birthday in April, it was given a month previous. Regarding the context, I think these are some fair and balanced thoughts. http://kennethwoods.net/blog1/2011/10/24/lvb-9-furtwangler-1942/
> 
> But anyone is free to pass on anything they see fit, no skin off my back! :tiphat:


To be honest I have a couple of Beethoven ninths by Furtwangler and neither of them does it for me.


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## Brahmsian Colors

DavidA said:


> Just listened to the Reinter again. Fist movement a bit stop / go surprisingly.


Agree. It's actually more of a brief but noticeable slowing down in a couple of instances. I acknowledge it is the only somewhat weak point in his otherwise outstanding performance.


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## Oldhoosierdude

I tried out many 9ths and cycles when I had 4 months of free spotify. I ended up aquiring the ones I liked.
Kletzki is my overall favorite 9th. I like the cycle, Although I don't much care for his sixth .

For 9th and cycle I Also like Blomstedt, Walter, Barenboim (the good one), and my sentimental favorite is always Krips (grew up with it).


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## hpowders

One of the greatest performances of Beethoven's Ninth is Furtwängler's from the 1954 Lucerne Festival.

Tempos get pulled and pushed as only Furtwängler could and still sound convincing.

Pure genius!


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## Merl

Can't believe I've never commented on this thread! I have rather a lot of Beethoven Ninths (more than 80 I reckon) and there are some absolute crackers and plenty of impressive ones too but the ones I particularly cherish are:

Leinsdorf: A snappy, precise, classic performance in a slightly above-average cycle. Still my favourite by a short head.
Blomstedt: Big, booming, traditional version from a wonderful cycle
Fricsay: Superb 
Chailly: Quick, exciting and excellent recording
Solti: Just thrilling - gets better as it goes on
Karajan 63: The benchmark 
Stokowski: Wonderful performance
Norrington (SWR): Unique performance and beautiful recording
Kubelik: see Karajan (both are terrific)
Haitink (LSO): Great 9th from a super cycle
Rattle (BPO): Stunning recording and BIG performance
Gardiner: The rhythms make this one. 

These are just off the top of my head so apologies if I've omitted any. Special mention to Edlinger and his Zagreb forces for the best budget 9th (apart from Blomstedt). You can get Edlinger's whole cycle for £2.18 off Ebay!


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## Phil loves classical

Solti for me. Recording has a good dynamic range. Great control.


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## amfortas

Richard8655 said:


> Recorded at my alma mater, University of Illinois in 1972.
> 
> Since the Krannert Center (Urbana, Illinois) opened in 1969, the Chicago Symphony has performed in the Great Hall (now the Foellinger Great Hall) more than 25 times. In fact, former CSO Music Director Georg Solti loved the acoustics in Krannert so much that he recorded two of their most famous pieces-the Beethoven 9th and the Mahler 7th-in its Great Hall. The warm acoustics of the Foellinger Great Hall are a perfect match for the rich and flawless sound of the Windy City's magnificent ensemble.


My home town--nice. Going to a concert at Krannert this Friday night.


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