# Your favorite atonal or dissonant composers or classical works?



## SystematicSound

I really love atonal and dissonant music.

But It is hard to find outer people who like it as well.

What are some of your favorite atonal or dissonant works, and who was the composer?

systematicsound


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## HarpsichordConcerto

SystematicSound said:


> What are some of your favorite atonal or dissonant works, and who was the composer?


I have none.


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## Guest

There may be responses that are just as pointless as that one; but none are more pointless.

(Feels good to get that off my chest, I can tell ya!)

Now, on to the thread. 

SS, since both words you've used, "atonal" and "dissonant" are rather, well um, flexible in meaning, perhaps you could start things off by mentioned a couple of things you like. That way, even if we quibble with your definition of "atonal" or "dissonant," we can at least see what it is you're talking about.

Of course, you could also tell us what you mean by dissonant and atonal, though your examples will probably do that just as well.


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## Aramis

I don't know what it's called, but they perform it at every concert before the main program begins, they do it even before they turn off the lights and all audience arrives to the hall. I think they perform it this way not only in my place but in every philharmonic hall in the world. What could it be?


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## rojo

^ The warm-up?


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## HarpsichordConcerto

some guy said:


> There may be responses that are just as pointless as that one; but none are more pointless.
> 
> (Feels good to get that off my chest, I can tell ya!)
> 
> .


I'm glad you feel better now though I never could have possibly imagined three little words ("I have none") from me could have caused you that much discomfort.


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## Art Rock

Berg - Violin concero
Hindemith - Symphony Mathis der Maler

Excellent introductions to a more adventurous atonal genre.


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## Weston

Bach: Cantata No. 80, "Ein feste Burg ist unser Gott," BWV 80 has some fantastic dissonance.

But, heck. I know what you mean. Though it's not really my favorite music, I do have some favorite pieces that don't use the common practice musical language, but they're mostly the well known ones. You're unlikely to learn anything new from my list.

I like *Ligeti* and *Penderecki *because of the exposure Kubric gave them, but I'd like to think it's also because they are quite good. I also enjoy some *Alberto Ginastera*. I enjoy some experiments in 24 tone or microtonal music - especially *Wendy Carlos*' forays into that sound world, though it could be argued that is still tonal in a way.

Honorable mention goes to* Charles Wourinen*, *Milton Babbit*, and *Morton Subotnik*, all of whom experiment with electronic sounds as well as more traditional ones.

I do not enjoy* Varese* in spite of Frank Zappa's passion for him. To my ears it sounds like so much cheesy 1960's TV action soundtrack music. Too bad so many TV shows used this style of music for the action sequences. I can't hear the music now without seeing William Shatner in my head starting a fist fight with a rubber suited alien.

And *Schoenberg*'s music is just plain ugly. No way around it. I have tried and tried.


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## Lukecash12

Varese, Schoenberg? I like em just fine, Weston.

As for my favorite. *Fireworks* *Alexandre Scriabin*


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## Sebastien Melmoth

Ah--you should hear Wourinen's transcription for piano four-hands of Schönberg's Orchestral Variations (Op. 31).

Also the piano reductions of his two Chamber Symphonies--though they are from his early period and much different from the later 12-tone work.


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## JSK

One of my favorite "dissonant" composers is Ginastera. Some of his earlier works, like Estancia and the First Piano Sonata are dissonant, but are just awesome and have incredible rhythmic drive. Later works (like the last two piano sonatas) just take the dissonance a little too far, and sound a bit like somebody randomly banging cluster chords on the piano in a rhythmic fashion which is interesting.


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## Weston

JSK said:


> One of my favorite "dissonant" composers is Ginastera. Some of his earlier works, like Estancia and the First Piano Sonata are dissonant, but are just awesome and have incredible rhythmic drive. Later works (like the last two piano sonatas) just take the dissonance a little too far, and sound a bit like somebody randomly banging cluster chords on the piano in a rhythmic fashion which is interesting.


That's the thing, for me. If you dispense with the tonal musical language, you'd better have a rhythmic language I can comprehend and vice versa. If you throw both out the window, there isn't enough to sink my teeth into. If some people want to make the effort, by all means they should enjoy it. Perhaps someday I will when I have the time.


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## SystematicSound

Hey "Some Guy" - and Everyone else who has responded so far...

You asked me for some examples of what I like.

Well, I have actually just completed 2 works of my own that really represent the kind of style I am looking to find.

I would also love any criticisms regarding my music - and please dont spare my feelings.

The music I have written is an experiment in atonality and dissonance. It is meant to be frantic, chaotic, and dark. It is meant to make the listener a little uneasy. Keep that in mind before telling me that my ears have fallen off 

Here are the links:

http://www.systematicsound.com/stw.mp3 (around 2:30 it gets a little crazy)

http://www.systematicsound.com/ag2.mp3 (gypsy theme - dark and frantic)

Thank you all for giving me such great input!


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## Guest

Well, frantic, chaotic, and dark (as well as atonal and dissonant) are not the adjectives I would have used to describe this music.

I guess it all depends on where you're coming from. It'll be interesting to see if others here find this frantic and chaotic and dark. (It seemed just the opposite to me. Calm, orderly, bright.)


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## MJTTOMB

Scriabin, Roslavets, Stravinsky, Debussy, Ravel, Moussorgsky, Prokofiev, Barber. All of them are great for me.


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## SystematicSound

some guy....

Were you listneing to STW.mp3? That def is mostly bright and orderly with a dark and atonal movement around 2:40

ag2.mp3 is the one that is frantic and dark all the way through...


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## mueske

SystematicSound said:


> some guy....
> 
> Were you listneing to STW.mp3? That def is mostly bright and orderly with a dark and atonal movement around 2:40
> 
> ag2.mp3 is the one that is frantic and dark all the way through...


Nope, not really, I agree with some guy. It's a bit gloomy at times, but never dark or frantic. Nothing wrong with that, unless you really were trying to write something frantic and dark. If that's the case, keep experimenting.

I think it's has a lot to do with your orchestration and use of timbre. The rhythms could also be a little less "clean" so to speak.


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## Sid James

I have began to familiarise myself with some of this repertoire, not only "atonal" or 12 tone music, but also any music which stretches the boundaries with regards to tonality, thematic development & structure. For example, I really like Debussy's _Jeux_ - all throughout, he hardly looks back, the music keeps on developing in a very intuitive way. It was just as groundbreaking (if not more?) than Stravinsky's_ Rite of Spring_, but always has been eclipsed by it.

Some other favourites (of those that I know so far) are Varese, Carter, Messiaen, Dutilleux, Henze, Roslavets, Penderecki, Lutoslawski, Ligeti, Schoenberg, Berg, Webern & our very own Australian (& living) Brett Dean (although his music can be described as more "tonal" than the others).

My favourite so far would have to be Charles Ives, who was already doing groundbreaking stuff in the early 1900's, but it was not published until later so no one noticed. I've only started to listen to Boulez's _Piano Sonatas _recently, these are very complex. But I think that the best thing to do with music like this is to get to know a wide variety of each composer's works very well. That way you have the "big picture," so to speak...


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## Huilunsoittaja

Prokofiev and Shostakovich, because they knew how to be dissonant, yet _effective_!

Prokofiev related dissonance to being pepper, and no one wants to listen to music that's _all _pepper.


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## World Violist

Berg, Boulez, Ligeti, Kalevi Aho (when he's dissonant, as he can be very dissonant; check out the cello concerto)... I like dissonant music when... I like it...


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## Aramis

Huilunsoittaja said:


> Prokofiev related dissonance to being pepper, and no one wants to listen to music that's _all _pepper.


That's well said. I feel like writing longer work in one manner from beginning to end is kind of boring, many composers seem to be determinated to use dissonances all the time and it's annoying.


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## TresPicos

Dissonant? Well, Bartok's 4th string quartet comes to mind. 

Some other favorites: 

Dutilleux' piano sonata
The piano music of Frank Bridge
Poulenc's concerto for two pianos
Roussel's 3rd symphony
Shostakovich's Piano quintet
Schoenberg's Drei Klavierstücke
Dutilleux' Mystère de l'instant
Alwyn's piano concerto
Englund's piano concerto
Pretty much everything by hidden Dutch gem Rudolf Escher


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## Guest

Aramis said:


> ...many composers seem to be determinated to use dissonances all the time and it's annoying.


I hear this claimed a lot, but no one who makes this claim seems at all willing to offer up any names. Who are these "many composers"?

And after you're done naming names, maybe you would be so kind as to answer this one: What do you mean by "use dissonances all the time" (which, technically, is a description of ALL tonal music, just by the way)?

And finally, _after_ we get our answers to those questions, who's annoyed? (Not everyone is annoyed by the same things.)


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## toucan

Schoenberg, five pieces op 16 - such beauty!
Schoenberg, Variations op 31 - more beauty!
Schoenberg, Lichtspielszene op 34 - he got rhythm

Webern, op 6 & op 10

Boulez, Le Marteau sans Maitre
Boulez, cummings is der Dichter
Stockhausen, Gruppen
Stockhausen, Punkte
Berio, Differences

Lutoslawski, 2nd Symphony
Dutilleux, Shadows of Time


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## Nix

Haven't fully explored 20th century music yet, but some of my favorites:

Bartok: String Quartets, Music for Percussion, Celesta and Strings
Barber: Piano Concerto, Piano Sonata
Shostakovich: String Quartets, Symphony #15
Britten: Music for Serenade, Tenor and Horn, War Requiem, Cello Symphony 
Adams: Violin Concerto, Transmigration of Souls
Beethoven: Grosse Fuge.

I'm very concerned about the people who cannot handle any dissonant music...


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## norman bates

first things that come to mind

messiaen - quartet for the end of times
messiaen - eyes in the wheels ("Les Yeux dans les Roues"
from livre d'orgue)





ligeti - requiem

giacinto scelsi - uaxuctum





matthijs vermeulen - symphony 2

bartok - quartet no.4





scriabin - 5 preludes op.74





honegger - pacific 231





fartein valen - The churchyard by the sea 





nikos skalkottas - largo sinfonico





andrew imbrie - violin concerto





galina ustvoskaja - octet (the so called "lady with the hammer")





mosolov - iron foundry





john cage - sonata V





ivan Wyschnegradsky - Étude sur les mouvements rotatoires





harry partch - delusion of the fury

Arnold Schönberg - A Survivor from Warsaw Op. 46 





carl ruggles - man and mountains and sun treader





Lutoslawski - trois poèmes d'Henri Michaux





elliott carter - third quartet

milton babbitt - all set

and a lot of stuff of ives and dane rudhyar


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## World Violist

Per Norgard has some really beautiful dissonances. 

Enescu worked within a tonal framework but still used some very advanced harmonic language cushioned in orchestration that rivals that of Ravel. 

I agree with those who have mentioned Bach. I can't think of any examples off the top of my head, but in my listening to the cantatas I've definitely come across some marvelous examples.

Orlande di Lassus, surprisingly, had some seriously forward-looking ideas by any standards, let alone for a Renaissance composer. Chromaticism is applied liberally, and some of his harmonic progressions apparently were never used again until the twentieth century.


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## norman bates

World Violist said:


> Orlande di Lassus, surprisingly, had some seriously forward-looking ideas by any standards, let alone for a Renaissance composer. Chromaticism is applied liberally, and some of his harmonic progressions apparently were never used again until the twentieth century.


i know only the missa pro defunctis and i like it very much, can you suggest me some other work?


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## Listener

I like the violin concertos of Berg and Schoenberg.


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## Ian Elliott

Varese's Ionisation. Also his earlier Ameriques. "When you hear Schønberg, you remember that Wagner once lived; when you hear Webern, you remember that Schønberg once lived; when you hear Varese, you remember only - Varese!"


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## Delicious Manager

Some 'interesting' ideas on what constitutes 'atonal' music!

I love to be challenged by music. Of course I adore the 'classics' and recognise and enjoy their greatness. However, I want to 'use my ears like a man', to almost quote Charles Ives. I listen to everything, dismiss nothing (until I've listened to it and decided it's rubbish, that is) and keep an open mind at all times. Why, I even discovered a piece of Michael Nyman's in here recently that was actually worth listening to. So, life is a constant voyage of wonderful musical discoveries and I pity (and don't hold in an awful lot of respect) those with closed minds and ears who won't listen to certain types of music they have decided they don't like (even when they have heard very little of it).

Some of the atonal works I return to again and again:

Berg - Three Pieces for Orchestra
Pettersson - Symphony No 7
Ruggles - _Sun Treader_; _Men and Mountains_
Schoenberg - Five Pieces for Orchestra
Varèse - _Amériques_; _Arcana_; _Octandre_; _Intégrales_
Webern - Six Pieces for Orchestra


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## Manxfeeder

Delicious Manager said:


> :
> 
> Berg - Three Pieces for Orchestra
> Ruggles - _Sun Treader_;
> Schoenberg - Five Pieces for Orchestra
> Varèse - _Amériques_; _Arcana_; _Octandre_; _Intégrales_
> Webern - Six Pieces for Orchestra


Good list. I think we have the same ears, so I'll have to look into the Pettersson piece and Men and Mountains.


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## Romantic Geek

And this isn't atonal...and maybe not so dissonant...but it's pretty cool!


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## bassClef

I don't really listen to dissonant works for pleasure, but I watched 2001 A Space Odyssey for the first time in a long while yesterday and wow that Ligeti sure evokes a weird and scary atmosphere.


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## emiellucifuge

Ill ignore the word dissonant as all music has some dissonance.



Weston said:


> And *Schoenberg*'s music is just plain ugly. No way around it. I have tried and tried.


What? Have you tried the 2nd chamber symphony? The Gurrelieder? Verklarte Nacht?


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## myaskovsky2002

*Egon Wellesz*

I like Egon Wellesz very much, a work I love is his violin concerto...of course I love also the Al violin concerto Alban Berg

Martin Pitchon


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## Manxfeeder

emiellucifuge said:


> What? Have you tried the 2nd chamber symphony? The Gurrelieder? Verklarte Nacht?


I was thinking the same thing. Pelleas und Melisande sounds good also.


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## jdavid

For me: music is not defined by beauty only, or maybe it is that I find beauty as a requirement so suffocating and tiresome. If I say that I greatly admire and will travel lots to hear a performance of the Bartok 4th String Quartet it is not because it is beautiful, but because it is a great and thrilling experience (though the 3rd movement is beautiful). Maybe Keats had something less literal in mind...


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## clavichorder

Ernst Toch is a favorite atonal composer of mine.


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## Klavierspieler

I enjoy Vaughan Williams' Piano Concerto.


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