# Tragical / sad operas



## jenn79 (Apr 12, 2007)

Hello, looking for some tragical and sad operas. And maybe some furious aswell (i'm a fan of depressing music hah ) thx!

-jenn


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## Lisztfreak (Jan 4, 2007)

'Carmen', 'Tosca', 'Lucia di Lammermoor', 'Tristan und Isolde' are definite musts for those who like tragic operas!


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## Caronome (Mar 6, 2007)

The finale of 'Rigoletto' is heart-breaking. As is the 'Der Rosenkavalier' trio (at least i think so!). 'La Boheme' and 'Otello' are tragic and 'La Traviata' is, too! Ah, the list goes on and on... how many do you need? haha


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## Morigan (Oct 16, 2006)

In fact, almost every "opera seria" are tragic. And that's a damn huge part of the opera repertoire.


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## cato (Dec 2, 2006)

Hi Jenn! 

So, you are a fan of depressing music?  

Well, you are going to love Shostakovich!  

Especially his quartets!  

It's very sad music, penned by a poor chap who lived his life in a Communist Police State, and came pretty close to being shot or sent to a labor camp for his music.

A sad Opera? Hummm..... let's see, take your pick. I can't think of one with a happy ending.  

Although "La Boheme" has already been mentioned, I'll second the motion, and add that not only is the story sad, but the music that supports the singing, is also very sad and moving. If you don't cry while listening to La Boheme, then your tear ducts are not working.


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## jenn79 (Apr 12, 2007)

Thanks guys, i really appreciate it and you've already helped me out a lot! And if there's anything more, just reply here or pm me  and i know, almost all of the operas i've heard are tragical, so there's hundreds of them out..  

-jenn


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## Manuel (Feb 1, 2007)

You will have a lot of fun with Puccini (well... it's not really diversion what you will get, but it will certainly keep you busy)

*La boheme*. 
*Turandot.* The composer died before completing it, and it was initially completed by Alfano; for a much intimate _finale_, I suggest you to get Berio's conclusion (which is available in DVD in a magnificent fururistic set, including Zefirelli and Gergiev)
*Tosca*. 
*Madama Butterfly*

For some reason, Puccini tends to recurently kill the *prima donna*, I warn you.

Verdi's Aida is also a must. The last scene is musically one of the most pure writtings you will find out there. No big choruses, no heavy orchestration; just two imprisoned lovers.

But the most tragic ever is, IMO, *Andrea Chenier*, by Umberto Giordano. There's a very good DVD of this one with Domingo and Tomowa-Sintow, from the Royal Opera House. Two *tear sections* in this opera are the duet at the end of the 2nd act (Ora soave, sublime ora d'amore"; and the end of the 4th act, "La nostra morte è il trionfo dell'amore"


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## Manuel (Feb 1, 2007)

Let's backup my selections with a few mp3.

*Andrea Chenier*
October 15, 1955 - RAI

Mario Del Monaco
Antonietta Stella
Giuseppe Taddei
Luisa Mandelli
Ortensia Beggiato
Fraco Calabrese

Angelo Questa

with cue sheets

http://rapidshare.com/files/22606769/55ChenMDM1.rar.html
http://rapidshare.com/files/22604477/55ChenMDM2.rar.html

*********
*La boheme*
Rodolfo: Rolando Villazón
Mimi: Anna Netrebko
Marcello: Boaz Daniel
Schaunard: Thomas Laske
Parpignol: Kevin Conners
Sergente: Gerhard Häusler
Kinderchor des Staatstheaters am Gärtnerplatz
Chor des Bayerischen Rundfunks; Einstudierung: Udo Mehrpohl
Symphonie-Orchester des Bayerischen Rundfunks
Dirigent: Bertrand De Billy
München, Philharmonie am Gasteig, 14.04.2007

http://rapidshare.com/files/26047665/01_-_ATTO_I.mp3
http://rapidshare.com/files/26048619/02_-_ATTO_II.mp3
http://rapidshare.com/files/26049927/03_-_ATTO_III.mp3
http://rapidshare.com/files/26051526/04_-_ATTO_IV.mp3
http://rapidshare.com/files/26051584/05_-_End_Credits.mp3


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## Guest (Apr 15, 2007)

The emotion depends on the singers, also.

For Instance, I’d suggest Maria Callas in Tosca, or Lucia


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## Frasier (Mar 10, 2007)

Daffodylls, apologies in advance for offering a contrary opinion.

Finding a decent Lucia who sings Bel Canto is gonna be difficult. Callas is no coloratura so if you happen also to like coloratura, Jenn, then avoid her and Sutherland. Great singers in their own way but not specially good for pre-Verdi operas.


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## Guest (Apr 16, 2007)

Frasier said:


> Daffodylls, apologies in advance for offering a contrary opinion.
> 
> Finding a decent Lucia who sings Bel Canto is gonna be difficult. Callas is no coloratura so if you happen also to like coloratura, Jenn, then avoid her and Sutherland. Great singers in their own way but not specially good for pre-Verdi operas.


I just spoke about emotions.

As far as Lucia is concerned, i am agree with you that Coloraturas are indeed more suitable for the role. I have already listened such refined performances, but, they didn't make me shiver a lot. I prefer a singer like Maria Callas, who sang with all her heart and soul. - Nevertheless, I admit that her interpretation was very personal.


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## Morbicae (Jul 31, 2007)

I'd like to request something in this same post as well...

Tragic operas, etc...

But preferably male vocals, with melodies atop backing that, through it's structure, and vocal power, can just make you actually cry...

Not that I do not like female singers, but I find the sadness through the voice of a man can be much, much more saddening and poweful...For me, anyway.

Any songs to recommend?


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## Lisztfreak (Jan 4, 2007)

Well, talking of *songs* literally, then I'd recommend Schubert's and Schumann's, sung by Dietrich Fischer-Dieskau or Wolfgang Holzmair. Consider especially the Dichterliebe, op.48 and Liederkreis, op.24 as goes for Schumann, and for Schubert get the Winterreise and some independent songs like D553, D565, D771, D799, D800, D832, D933... much more.

As for opera airs, try 'Che faro senza Euridice' from Gluck's 'Orpheus and Euridica' (that here is in fact a countertenor, so often the air is sung by mezzosopranos), 'Far away, Palmyra' from Delius' 'Koanga' (sung by Eugene Holmes - a deep, afroamerican voice), 'E lucevan le stelle' from Puccini's 'Tosca, to name but a few.


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## Handel (Apr 18, 2007)

From Handel:
Saul
Belshazzar
Jeptha
Acis and Galatea
Hercules
etc
etc


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## Adele87 (Aug 2, 2007)

Tosca is good


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## Manuel (Feb 1, 2007)

Adele87 said:


> Tosca is good


I invited a girl to attend with me a performance of Tosca back in April this year. As soon as Tosca jumped from the rooftops of S'Antangelo my friend was so moved that she shouted _"Oh no! ! !, she jumped! ! ! ! "_. "Dear, performance is in progress, please keep it low" was my severe response.


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## Adele87 (Aug 2, 2007)

heh, that's cool


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## Tigerlily (Aug 5, 2007)

The first two acts of Il Trittico (Il Tabarro and Suor Angelica) are heartbreaking in my opinion. Especially Suor Angelica.


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## Adele87 (Aug 2, 2007)

Yeah, I like those operas too. I enjoy a lot of Puccini's works but Tosca is by far my favorite.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

Alban Berg's Wozzeck is the most tragic, sad and depressing opera I can think of. It's actually my favourite opera. Leoncavallo's I Pagliacci is also sad.


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## Elgarian (Jul 30, 2008)

Tigerlily said:


> The first two acts of Il Trittico (Il Tabarro and Suor Angelica) are heartbreaking in my opinion. Especially Suor Angelica.


It seems odd replying to a post more than 18 months old, but here goes. The curious aspect of the 'tragedy' of Suor Angelica is that it may not be tragic; or at least, it's possible to see its tragedy from a different perspective that leaves the opera hovering on an edge between tragedy and redemption. It isn't clear at the end of the opera whether the miracle of the vision of the child and the Virgin is 'really' happening. We don't know whether it's an hallucination that Angelica experiences in her dying moments, or whether there really is a divine intervention taking place - one is free to 'read' the opera either way. However, whichever way it's read, Angelica dies at peace, believing herself to be forgiven at last, and reunited with her son. To us, outside the situation, it is tragic; I'm not sure that it's tragic for Angelica, even if she is hallucinating.

I think the great power of the opera lies here - it straddles that "is it/isn't it?" question (as does the emotional impact of the music), so that anguish and beauty are brought together in an extremely poignant way that defies description.


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## jhar26 (Jul 6, 2008)

Elgarian said:


> It seems odd replying to a post more than 18 months old, but here goes. The curious aspect of the 'tragedy' of Suor Angelica is that it may not be tragic; or at least, it's possible to see its tragedy from a different perspective that leaves the opera hovering on an edge between tragedy and redemption. It isn't clear at the end of the opera whether the miracle of the vision of the child and the Virgin is 'really' happening. We don't know whether it's an hallucination that Angelica experiences in her dying moments, or whether there really is a divine intervention taking place - one is free to 'read' the opera either way. However, whichever way it's read, Angelica dies at peace, believing herself to be forgiven at last, and reunited with her son. To us, outside the situation, it is tragic; I'm not sure that it's tragic for Angelica, even if she is hallucinating.
> 
> I think the great power of the opera lies here - it straddles that "is it/isn't it?" question (as does the emotional impact of the music), so that anguish and beauty are brought together in an extremely poignant way that defies description.


Critics considered _Gianni Schicchi_ the best of the _Il Trittico_ operas while they thought that _Suor Angelica_ was a mistake. Puccini himself however considered _Suor Angelica_ the best of the three _Il Trittico_ operas and one of his best works overall.

BTW - Puccini was literally in tears composing the last pages of _La Boheme_ and _Madama Butterfly_. In fact, it upset him so much that sweet little Mimi and Butterfly had to die that he was determined to force a happy ending out of _La Fanciulla del West_.


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## Elgarian (Jul 30, 2008)

jhar26 said:


> Critics considered _Gianni Schicchi_ the best of the _Il Trittico_ operas while they thought that _Suor Angelica_ was a mistake. Puccini himself however considered _Suor Angelica_ the best of the three _Il Trittico_ operas and one of his best works overall.


I'm with Puccini on this, as you know! The fact that it teeters on the brink of sentimentality makes it hard to swallow for some people - but in that respect it's rather like some of the great PreRaphaelite paintings: they are almost mawkish, they come so close to that ... but that brink-teetering gives them a life that makes them unforgettable masterpieces.



> BTW - Puccini was literally in tears composing the last pages of _La Boheme_ and _Madama Butterfly_. In fact, it upset him so much that sweet little Mimi and Butterfly had to die that he was determined to force a happy ending out of _La Fanciulla del West_.


And who can blame him? We've all sobbed our hearts out at the loss of Mimi, n'est ce pas?.


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## jhar26 (Jul 6, 2008)

Elgarian said:


> And who can blame him? We've all sobbed our hearts out at the loss of Mimi, n'est ce pas?.


O yes - especially if the Mimi is Mirella. 

BTW - take a listen to this duet by Mirella and Renata Scotto from Bellini's _Norma_. Is that beautiful or is that beautiful????


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## Elgarian (Jul 30, 2008)

jhar26 said:


> BTW - take a listen to this duet by Mirella and Renata Scotto from Bellini's _Norma_. Is that beautiful or is that beautiful????


Listening now .... well, if you force me to choose between beautiful and beautiful, then I suppose I'll have to settle for beautiful, but there's a strong case for calling it both. It is a duet after all.

Those two voices, together .... my goodness. I've been on a Handel (_Acis and Galatea_, _Apollo and Daphne_) kick recently, and had almost lost sight of just how ravishing Bellini is. Thanks for this, Gaston.


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## Lang (Sep 30, 2008)

Andre said:


> Alban Berg's Wozzeck is the most tragic, sad and depressing opera I can think of. It's actually my favourite opera.


The Berg is very interesting, in the sense that the large orchestral section after the murder and suicide is a kind of author's commentary on what has gone before. At least, that is how I see it. It seems to represent the composer's compassion for his characters. We step out of the immediate events of the opera and the arena widens to include not only Wozzeck and Marie but all of us in this world. And then after the emotional climax the music subsides, and we are then plunged back into the final scene of the opera, where the the thumbscrews are tightened one more time. I think if it were not for this orchestral interlude the opera would be much more claustrophobic and depressing than it actually is.


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## katdad (Jan 1, 2009)

A very tragic, powerful, and short opera is Puccini's "Il Tabarro" (the cloak) which is set on a lowly river barge in Paris about the year 1910. There's an excellent DVD of the Metropolitan performance that also has "Pagliacci" on it too.

As was said previous, the finale of "Rigoletto" is maybe the strongest and most tragic of any opera, ever. The entire opera is full of revenge, curses, and nastiness.


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## ecg_fa (Nov 10, 2008)

Not exactly on topic, but not only do I love many tragic operas, but sometimes find
villains to be at least as interesting as the heros/heroines-- & at times MORE interesting, even sometimes sympathetic in some ways: & not just Don Giovanni who's more a damnable if fascinating rake, but Scarpia, Queen of the Night, Amneris, Eboli (well, semi-villainess), even Alberich the Dwarf !! & others. I should say I like plenty of comic/happy ending operas too-- all of Mozart's 'comic' operas, Don Pasquale, Sonnambula, Fidelio,
Rosenkavalier & many others.

Ed


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

I think that maybe the most tragic opera ever is Peter Grimes.
Lady Macbeth of Mtsensk District is another one.
Lulu and Wozzeck of course are also very bleak.
Kata Kabanová also comes to mind.
L'Amour de Loin is a tragic recent one.

Someone above said Der Rosenkavalier is tragic. Not at all, in my opinion. There are things in life that are way more tragic than getting a little older and figuring out that it's best to pass your teenage lover on to someone his age. I'm sure the Marshallin didn't stop having lovers after Octavian; just, she must have picked someone a little older than Octavian.


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## Gualtier Malde (Nov 14, 2010)

Almaviva said:


> Someone above said Der Rosenkavalier is tragic. Not at all, in my opinion.


I agree (not tragic). In my opinion, poignant would be a much better word for the Marschallin parts of the story. Of course, the overwhelming effect the opera makes owes a good deal to the fact that it's exactly the right kind of mixture of many things, from slapstick to very touching. I also love how it ends (Mohammed picking up the handkerchief to his merry theme), this gives the whole thing such a wonderfully light, fairy tale type touch.


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## Herkku (Apr 18, 2010)

In this league of operas, Verdi's La Traviata is for me an absolute killer! It manages to be both sad and tragic in about equal measures. I know full well that many consider it to be only an example of extreme melodrama. Somehow Violetta's personal sacrifice rings a bell in me, even lying to the person you love, if you think it's better for everyone (except yourself).


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

Gualtier Malde said:


> I agree (not tragic). In my opinion, poignant would be a much better word for the Marschallin parts of the story. Of course, the overwhelming effect the opera makes owes a good deal to the fact that it's exactly the right kind of mixture of many things, from slapstick to very touching. I also love how it ends (Mohammed picking up the handkerchief to his merry theme), this gives the whole thing such a wonderfully light, fairy tale type touch.


Yep, R. Strauss knew how to end operas!


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## myaskovsky2002 (Oct 3, 2010)

*Traviata*

Traviata is hilarious. LOL.

It's so OLD FASHION!

Martin


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## Herkku (Apr 18, 2010)

Compared to Verdi's other operas, it was almost contemporary in its subject! Dumas Jr. had his La Dame aux Camélias published in 1848 and the opera had its premiere in 1853 at La Fenice, although the management insisted that the setting should be changed to the eighteenth century.


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

myaskovsky2002 said:


> Traviata is hilarious. LOL.
> 
> It's so OLD FASHION!


Yes I spend all my time when I watch Traviata laughing like a drain. Let me see:

1. The position of women in the 19C when employment options were incredibly limited, so that you can either sew hats for a pittance like Mimi or sell your body, if you are lucky in the demi-monde, where you get to spend your time with creeps like Baron Douphol.

2. The rigid morals of a society where a man would refuse to marry a girl because her brother is having an affair. Don't forget point one if she doesn't manage to get married.

3. The hilarity of tuberculosis with no prospect of cure. It's a blast.


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

mamascarlatti said:


> Yes I spend all my time when I watch Traviata laughing like a drain. Let me see:
> 
> 1. The position of women in the 19C when employment options were incredibly limited, so that you can either sew hats for a pittance like Mimi or sell your body, if you are lucky in the demi-monde, where you get to spend your time with creeps like Baron Douphol.
> 
> ...


Yep. Exactly. Natalie is someone who gets it.:tiphat:

I don't understand why some people fail to see the grandeur and pathos in La Traviata, let alone the sublime music.


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## Aramis (Mar 1, 2009)

> 2. The rigid morals of a society where a man would refuse to marry a girl because her brother is having an affair.


That's pretty preconceived way to put it. He (can't remember his name, not sure if it was even revealed in opera) would have to refuse not because "her brother is having an affair" but because he is in relationship with *****, not even some common streetwalker but one that is pretty well known among people. It dishonors whole family, family which he would enter by getting married, as long as there was possibility of Alfredo and Violetta also getting married there was a strong risk for him to become relative of this *****.

Considering that both families were old and big households it would affect not only this young man interested in taking Alfredo's sister for wife but whole house. That's risk he apparently didn't want to take and there is nothing silly about it.


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## StlukesguildOhio (Dec 25, 2006)

That's pretty preconceived way to put it. He (can't remember his name, not sure if it was even revealed in opera) would have to refuse not because "her brother is having an affair" but because he is in relationship with *****, not even some common streetwalker but one that is pretty well known among people. It dishonors whole family, family which he would enter by getting married, as long as there was possibility of Alfredo and Violetta also getting married there was a strong risk for him to become relative of this *****. 

In other words, its OK if my future brother-in-law f**ks a well-known courtesan... its expected of men of his position, but if God forbid he actually thinks to marry her because he actually loves her... well that will certainly not do. It would bring shame upon the both families.


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

Aramis said:


> That's pretty preconceived way to put it. He (can't remember his name, not sure if it was even revealed in opera) would have to refuse not because "her brother is having an affair" but because he is in relationship with *****, not even some common streetwalker but one that is pretty well known among people. It dishonors whole family, family which he would enter by getting married, as long as there was possibility of Alfredo and Violetta also getting married there was a strong risk for him to become relative of this *****.
> 
> Considering that both families were old and big households it would affect not only this young man interested in taking Alfredo's sister for wife but whole house. That's risk he apparently didn't want to take and there is nothing silly about it.


I take your point that it is stronger than just having an affair. However I strongly object to the word *****, with all its patriarchal baggage and connotations. Do you have an equivalent word for the men who exploit her, who are happy to use her body until it wears out, when they will drop her and go off in search of fresh young meat?

In fact it makes the whole hypocrisy stronger too, you give women the choice of marriage into a repressive social system, penurious labour, being a servant (but only if they have references) or selling their bodies, and then condemn them for for choosing the option that briefly offers the most freedom and is best paid. And woe betide the women if they get sick, or when they get old.

I'd like to add that there are other aspects of Traviata that I find very moving. Violetta is longing for somewhere to belong, to escape her loneliness, to get out of the dog-eat-dog world that she moves in, and for a few months she finds peace, only to lose it to the hypocritical mores of society. You hear her longing for a family also in her interactions with Germont - I mean, where is her own father to protect her interests?

So, going back to the original post, where is the LOL in all that? Is Lulu hilarious too (after all they are two sides of the same coin)?


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

StlukesguildOhio said:


> In other words, its OK if my future brother-in-law f**ks a well-known courtesan... its expected of men of his position, but if God forbid he actually thinks to marry her because he actually loves her... well that will certainly not do. It would bring shame upon the both families.


We posted simultaneously. You put it much more economically than me:tiphat:.


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

All that the three of you posted above (including what Aramis said) is recovered by Dumas in his play and Verdi in La Traviata. That's exactly why it is so interesting. Verdi is clearly on Violetta's side (also given his personal history at that point in his life) and he wanted to expose the hypocrisy. And what StLukesGuildOhio said is actually in the opera itself, when Germont indicates to Alfredo that you can pay them, but you can't marry them.

About what Martin said, this is stuff that continues to happen in society, so, to call it old-fashioned is to completely miss the point.


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## Aramis (Mar 1, 2009)

> Do you have an equivalent word for the men who exploit her, who are happy to use her body until it wears out, when they will drop her and go off in search of fresh young meat?


Well, how about: worthy of each other.



> In fact it makes the whole hypocrisy stronger too, you give women the choice of marriage into a repressive social system, penurious labour, being a servant (but only if they have references) or selling their bodies, and then condemn them for for choosing the option that briefly offers the most freedom and is best paid.


Reaching to the very source, that is Marie Duplessis, we learn that her alternative for being ***** was working in dress shop. Nothing special, yes, but there is also nothing inhuman and unjust to have such job, huh? But maybe you belive that it's okay when woman sells her *** just to be able to wear expensive clothes and hang out with rich man instead of having decent life, just without champagne and palaces? Yes, that's the fault of ill society, not vanity at all. Would you prefer to go this way too, if you would have being shopgirl as alternative?

You also exaggerate woman's fate in these times. Clara Schumann lived in the same era and somehow she managed to achieve a lot. But it's much easier to shake your bottom and use what was given to you by fortune, go the easy way than work hard, learn something valueable and get somewhere.


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

Aramis said:


> Well, how about: worthy of each other.
> 
> Reaching to the very source, that is Marie Duplessis, we learn that her alternative for being ***** was working in dress shop. Nothing special, yes, but there is also nothing inhuman and unjust to have such job, huh? But maybe you belive that it's okay when woman sells her *** just to be able to wear expensive clothes and hang out with rich man instead of having decent life, just without champagne and palaces? Yes, that's the fault of ill society, not vanity at all. Would you prefer to go this way too, if you would have being shopgirl as alternative?
> 
> You also exaggerate woman's fate in these times. Clara Schumann lived in the same era and somehow she managed to achieve a lot. But it's much easier to shake your bottom and use what was given to you by fortune, go the easy way than work hard, learn something valueable and get somewhere.


Yes you could sometimes manage. But it wasn't easy, if you want to see how precarious the life of a shopgirl or dressmaker was, read "Au Bonheur des Dames" by Zola. The protagonist there was frequently in danger of slipping onto the streets if she lost her job, as there was always a danger of being laid off with no safety net.


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## Jules141 (Nov 20, 2009)

I find Britten's Peter Grimes particularly tragic, quite an upsetting story. The gossiping villagers ... the mad Peter at the end ... :'(


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