# Is The Royal Concertgebouw really that great or more a successful marketing campaign?



## radiodurans (Dec 8, 2018)

I often find The Royal Concertgebouw Orchestra on top of "greatest orchestras in the world" polls (such as in Gramophone polls etc.) I lived in Amsterdam several years when I saw many of their concerts, and also have listened to several recordings made by them. They are definitely a high-quality orchestra but I'd have a hard enough time putting them on a top 10 list of all the orchestras I've heard in my lifetime, let alone naming them "best in the world". Technically they are excellent, but I find their performances quite lifeless in comparison to others I've experienced, both live and recorded.

The greatness of the main hall at The Royal Concertgebouw I find less exaggerated. The hall is a genuine marvel of engineering for its time. It produces a unique, flat sound. Still, even the quality of the sound seems over-inflated especially when considering modern standards. Science has produced many far superior sounding concert halls all over the world in my opinion. The website for the hall basically says it is the best because it was magically achieved without the knowledge of acoustic science: https://www.concertgebouw.nl/en/famous-acoustics . It did feel magical for me to be there, but that was because of the history, not because of the orchestra or a sound like from another magical world.

So what do others think? Is The RCO (the orchestra itself and/or the acoustics of the main hall) marketing over-hype? If you think there is something genuine to the extreme accolades, could you reference a recording/recordings that you feel justifies it as this "greatest orchestra in the world"? I feel like I must be missing something or overlooking something.


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## Fabulin (Jun 10, 2019)

I do not recall the name of the Concertgebouw featuring on too many of my favourite recordings. London, Vienna, Berlin, Russian State Academic, Philadelphia, even some more famous radio orchestras---all come before it. I wouldn't be surprised then if Concertgebouw, which I have also seen at the top of some lists, was overhyped to the detriment of other great orchestras.


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## flamencosketches (Jan 4, 2019)

Yeah, I found their extreme renown a bit confusing too. What is this praise based upon? Recordings, legendary performances? Or just a great degree of consistency? Maybe someone in Amsterdam can help me.


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

It's one of the world's great orchestras...I certainly wouldn't put them at the top, but it's a very fine ensemble, with a long history, and successful associations with many top conductors.


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## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

Like a sports team, every orchestra has its good days and bad. The success of a concert depends on a lot of things like the music in front of them, the overpaid arm waver, the audience, weather and where a particular concert is in a run. (Sometimes, playing a concert for even the second time is mind numbing.) So with the RCO. Unless I heard the major orchestras in the same repertoire weekly, it'd be hard to say who's the best. But I would certainly include them in the top 10 list. They have a warmth of sound and an inner balance that is amazing. All of the top orchestras these days have spotless intonation and the RCO is exemplary. Yes, it's a really great orchestra.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

Presto Classical lists over 600 recordings led by many of the world's top conductors. They also have their own RCO record label. Plenty of outstanding releases by Colin Davis, Chailly, Haitink, Ashkenazy, and many others.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

"Is The Royal Concertgebouw really that great or more a successful marketing campaign?"

Did you think that Payola was limited to pop music??? :lol:


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## Open Book (Aug 14, 2018)

radiodurans said:


> If you think there is something genuine to the extreme accolades, could you reference a recording/recordings that you feel justifies it as this "greatest orchestra in the world"? I feel like I must be missing something or overlooking something.


Richard Strauss's "Also Sprach Zarathustra", Haitink and Concertgebouw. A recording from the 1970's, of a work from the 19th century, with one foot in the 21st century. It'll knock your socks off, riveting from start to finish. The brass and strings are amazing. The concertmaster, Hermann Krebbers, is exceptional.

Youtube on your computer won't do it justice, I play the vinyl on my stereo.


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## Rogerx (Apr 27, 2018)

To O.P :Mahler thought otherwise, I value his opinion more.


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

Rogerx said:


> To O.P :Mahler thought otherwise, I value his opinion more.


That was 110+ years ago ... so what does it have to do with today?


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## Rogerx (Apr 27, 2018)

Becca said:


> That was 110+ years ago ... so what does it have to do with today?


The same as then, very high standards.


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## radiodurans (Dec 8, 2018)

Rogerx said:


> To O.P :Mahler thought otherwise, I value his opinion more.


Mahler thought otherwise, or you like to pretend he would think otherwise? It sounds like highly questionable speculation. According to Concertgebouw's own website, Mahler's attraction was to the Rijksmuseum across the street, not to Amsterdam the city, or the Concertgebouw. Also, the Concertgebouw would have been a new/modern venue that long ago.


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## radiodurans (Dec 8, 2018)

Open Book said:


> Richard Strauss's "Also Sprach Zarathustra", Haitink and Concertgebouw. A recording from the 1970's, of a work from the 19th century, with one foot in the 21st century. It'll knock your socks off, riveting from start to finish. The brass and strings are amazing. The concertmaster, Hermann Krebbers, is exceptional.
> 
> Youtube on your computer won't do it justice, I play the vinyl on my stereo.
> View attachment 122221


OK thanks Ill see if I can find a copy. It probably won't be vinyl, though unfortunately. This forum is great for finding recommendations that I probably would never consider. Gramophone, for example, listed about 20 of the greatest recordings of this work and didn't even mention it in 2014. https://www.gramophone.co.uk/feature/strauss-also-sprach-zarathustra-which-recording-is-best


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## Larkenfield (Jun 5, 2017)

Some of their great performances never made it from vinyl to cd. My favorite recording of the Dvorak 8th is by Haitink on Philips and I played it to death. It has never been transferred that I know of - one of the casualties of the digital age.


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## Guest (Aug 6, 2019)

radiodurans said:


> So what do others think? Is The RCO (the orchestra itself and/or the acoustics of the main hall) marketing over-hype? If you think there is something genuine to the extreme accolades, could you reference a recording/recordings that you feel justifies it as this "greatest orchestra in the world"? I feel like I must be missing something or overlooking something.


Here's what Tom Service thinks (or thought, 6 years ago). It does focus in particular on Mahler.

https://www.theguardian.com/music/t...1/concertgebouw-125th-anniversary-tom-service



> So here's a quick celebratory revelation of the Mahler interpretations of Mengelberg, van Beinum, Haitinik, Chailly, and Jansons, performances that are some of the bedrocks of the Concertgebouw's success. As you'll hear, it's a story of sonic continuity but creative flux in the vastly different approaches to the composer from each of the orchestra's chief conductors. That's just tip of the iceberg, of course; to really get stuck into the Concertgebouw's story, you'll need these volumes of their recorded history. But by way of a Mahlerian amouse-bouche: here's Mengelberg's Dionysian Mahler 4, van Beinum's classicism in the same symphony, Haitink's combination of the visionary and the structural, also in the 4th, the clarity and wildness of Chailly's 7th, and the sheer epic intensity of Jansons's 2nd.


I have RCO CDs with Shostakovich/Haitink, Haydn/Davis and Messiaen/Chailly. They're all pretty good.


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## NLAdriaan (Feb 6, 2019)

Interesting thread. I visit the RCO regularly, many times a year through the years in their home venue and with many conductors. I also have heard other famous orchestras in my life, but of course not as frequently. I have heard the BPO in Berlin and in the Concertgebouw and the VPO in a handful of concerts in the Concertgebouw, also recently. The LSO I have heard a few times, both in Amsterdam and in London. 

I think it makes a huge difference to compare orchestras in live performance or in recordings. In the digital era, recordings are terribly edited, which means that all minor mistakes will be removed and you might as well be listening to a puzzle of music.

I also experienced that it makes a huge difference who is conducting. The same orchestra may sound heavenly inspired with one conductor and bored to death with another. 

Furthermore, the top class orchestras in the world have changed quite a bit in the last decades as they internationalised more than before. This certainly goes for the RCO.

Finally, the hall is of importance. The Concertgebouw and the RCO are of course connected and the orchestra is used to play there. The hall has indeed a beautiful acoustics and melts the individual instruments into one orchestra. However, the VPO and Boston Symphony have a similar shoebox hall with similar acoustics. The Pilharmonie in Berlin has a modern design, which however does not match the acoustics of the great shoeboxes. However, the acoustics of the shoebox are excellent for the great romantic repertoire, not so much for the avantgarde repertoire. 

Well, having said all this, I do believe that the current RCO is really an outstanding orchestra, clearly better than the VPO, LSO and BPO. The BPO is a powerhouse, my ears literally hurt after a recent Bruckner concert. The VPO has great strings, but the wood and copper can't keep up with that. The LSO wasn't impressive when I heard them and in the Barbican, the acoustics are terrible. 

The best thing of the RCO is the refined ensemble playing, all instrumental groups are listening to eachother and are helping to produce the best possible sound. The only group that were better in the past is the horn section, but all other sections are versatile and great musicians, who love to make music under an inspired conductor. Both the wood and copper sections are really incredible. 

It will depend on who is becoming the new chief if the orchestra will keep up to this level. 

If you don't live near Amsterdam, beautiful reference recordings from the RCO over the years are Sheherazade under Kondrashin, The Mahler and Bruckner cycles under Chailly, the later Mahler and Bruckner recordings under Haitink. Beethoven's pianoconcerto's with Perahia/Haitink. Beethoven 4 and 7 on DVD under Carlos Kleiber. I also find Rach 2 and Brahms 1 with Ashkenazy/Haitink wonderful for its orchestral sound. From recent years, you can find some adventurous recordings under Gatti (Berlioz, symph fantastique, Mahler 2, Sacre, which I happen to like very much) and I hope the recent Mahler 9 under Haitink will be released on disc, as it was beautiful!

So, in all, the RCO deserves its top ranking and hopefully, they will find the right Chief to keep them there.


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## radiodurans (Dec 8, 2018)

@NLAdriaan -- Thank you for your thoughtful response. I'll have to check out a couple of the recordings you mentioned. I appreciate that classical music is a lot like wine and individual palettes vary greatly. Gatti I never cared for. For composers, Beethoven and Rach (recordings and live performances) from RCO I've found especially disappointing (generally speaking) over the years. I remember once inside the main hall during one of the poorer Beethoven performances in my view. I looked around for Ludwig's name on the wall just to ask him "Really?". I haven't been back to Amsterdam in over a year now but I see now what you mean with "finding the right Chief". https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/20...certgebouw-orchestra-sacks-conductor-daniele/ . . . I guess it's even more incredible then that it still gets "top orchestra in the world" when they are still looking for a Chief since last year.


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## radiodurans (Dec 8, 2018)

MacLeod said:


> Here's what Tom Service thinks (or thought, 6 years ago). It does focus in particular on Mahler.


Interesting article, it does bring up some points I hadn't thought about. I have to say though that it does generally come across as a marketing piece to promote the 125th anniversary of the hall. Service takes an opposite approach from what I've seen generally in giving more credit to the orchestra that the hall: "the Concertgebouw players are really masters of an orchestral illusion, because they are continually trying to transcend the limitations of the hall's on-stage sound". To hear the promoters of the Concertgebouw is to hear the story that the acoustic quality is magically the same high-quality anywhere in the hall. I've never been on that stage though during a performance to judge what that sounds like.



> I have RCO CDs with Shostakovich/Haitink, Haydn/Davis and Messiaen/Chailly. They're all pretty good.


I have mainly Haitink with some Jansons. Haitink would be my preference overall in terms of conductor style. I'd also agree that the ones I have are pretty good recordings, but nothing I'm passionate about, crave, or must hear again.


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## NLAdriaan (Feb 6, 2019)

radiodurans said:


> For composers, Beethoven and Rach (recordings and live performances) from RCO I've found especially disappointing (generally speaking) over the years. I remember once inside the main hall during one of the poorer Beethoven performances in my view. I looked around for Ludwig's name on the wall just to ask him "Really?".
> 
> I guess it's even more incredible then that it still gets "top orchestra in the world" when they are still looking for a Chief since last year.


Indeed, it all depends, I once went to an RCO concert with Kurt Sanderling, I almost walked out. Jaap van Zweden conducted Mahler 7 last year, which was a disgrace, especially since Mahler is the RCO's core repertoire. But I have heard so many absolute top concerts, like most recently Vladimir Jurowski with relative modern repertoire and of course the last Mahler 9 concert with Haitink, a few years ago Gatti with Mahler 2, Nelsons with Shostakovich 8, Ton Koopman with the Mattheus Passion. And also a very refreshing Beethoven cycle with Ivan Fischer, you would have liked that one, I guess.

The big Chief carousel was done a few years ago, when BPO, RCO, Boston, Lucerne festival, NY and some more all were looking for a new Chief and all likely candidates were balancing on a string to get the best possible position. As most candidates from then are now settled somewhere, it isn't possible to just pull out a new one, great conductors are booked years in advance. Also, I think that in the Champions conductors league, the way Gatti was carelessly metoo-ed in Amsterdam, is not an immediate recommendation. And both the general and artistic director of the RCO will leave soon. I keep my fingers crossed, I think this choice will be a very important one, they cannot afford another mistake.

Just to give you a nice recent example of the RCO's and Gatti's conducting quality, the RCO usually plays one opera each season with the Amsterdam Opera house, A few years ago they played Falstaff under Gatti and it was great, both musically and for the scenic part. I am not much of an opera fan myself, but this shows how the RCO can play this music: 
https://www.concertgebouworkest.nl/nl/verdi-falstaff


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## larold (Jul 20, 2017)

The Concertgebouw has a wonderful, somewhat unique, sound that its hall exploits. However, I don't find them preferable to the sound created by Ormany's Philadelphia Orchestra which I believe is the best-sounding orchestra I've heard.


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## Open Book (Aug 14, 2018)

Larkenfield said:


> Some of their great performances never made it from vinyl to cd. My favorite recording of the Dvorak 8th is by Haitink on Philips and I played it to death. It has never been transferred that I know of - one of the casualties of the digital age.


But CDs are digital. I don't get why some stuff is just so neglected.

And by the way, "Is [blank] really that great or more a successful marketing campaign?" is a fair question and could apply to other artists, too. I'm thinking solo artists.


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## Guest (Aug 7, 2019)

TBH, I can't tell. Doubtless, those members who've heard the same piece performed by different orchestras under the same conductor would have an informed view. For me, there are too many variables. If you listen to what people say are the differences between HvK's Beethoven, it just goes to show that comparing orchestras playing different compositions by different composers under different conductors at different times in different locations...


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## NLAdriaan (Feb 6, 2019)

MacLeod said:


> For me, there are too many variables. If you listen to what people say are the differences between HvK's Beethoven, it just goes to show that comparing orchestras playing different compositions by different composers under different conductors at different times in different locations...


Well, isn't this what we are doing here all the time

Add to that that any orchestra will never have exactly the same personnel composition and the same conductor will have a different mood every day. And each of us has a different opinion on what is good.

We might as well shut down TC


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## radiodurans (Dec 8, 2018)

Open Book said:


> Richard Strauss's "Also Sprach Zarathustra", Haitink and Concertgebouw. A recording from the 1970's, of a work from the 19th century, with one foot in the 21st century. It'll knock your socks off, riveting from start to finish. The brass and strings are amazing. The concertmaster, Hermann Krebbers, is exceptional.
> 
> Youtube on your computer won't do it justice, I play the vinyl on my stereo.
> View attachment 122221


I picked up a digital remaster. It sounds quite good, definitely a point for RCO from almost 50 years ago.


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## superhorn (Mar 23, 2010)

Arguing about which orchestra is the "best " or the "greatest " is like arguing about which breed of dog is "the best ". Absolutely futile . Different people prefer different dog breeds, and different people prefer different orchestras . 
Myself, I think we should just be glad we have so many world class orchestras today, each with its different personality , and each resident in concert halls with different acoustics . 
Overall standards of orchestral playing are higher than ever . There were certainly magnificent orchestras in the past during the alleged "golden age" of classical music . But we forget how few of them there were in the past relative to this of the present day . 
In America, the term "big five orchestras " (New York Phil., Philadelphia orchestra, Cleveland orchestra, Boston symphony , Chicago symphony ) is now obsolete . 
We now have world class orchestras in Los Angeles, San Francisco, Detroit, and many other cities .


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## Rogerx (Apr 27, 2018)

Royal Concert Gebouw orchestra news: 
The Hungarian conductor, who is based in Amsterdam, has accepted the title of honorary guest conductor from September 2021, working with the orchestra two or three weeks each season.

It’s a neither-here-nor-there appointment. The orchestra has lacked a music director since it fired Daniele Gatti. Fischer has performed with them praxtically every year since 1987 without being considered for the top job.


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## Open Book (Aug 14, 2018)

Rogerx said:


> Royal Concert Gebouw orchestra news:
> The Hungarian conductor, who is based in Amsterdam, has accepted the title of honorary guest conductor from September 2021, working with the orchestra two or three weeks each season.
> 
> It's a neither-here-nor-there appointment. The orchestra has lacked a music director since it fired Daniele Gatti. Fischer has performed with them praxtically every year since 1987 without being considered for the top job.


Which Fischer?

Sounds like the orchestra is waiting for the right someone for music director, maybe someone in particular.


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## Rogerx (Apr 27, 2018)

Open Book said:


> Which Fischer?
> 
> Sounds like the orchestra is waiting for the right someone, maybe someone in particular.


Sorry, it's Ivan Fischer.


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