# Bruckner's 6th - is it really a tough nut?



## elgar's ghost

The way some critics talk only ol' Klemp has ever totally nailed it. What terrors does it hold for musicians and conductors alike? There is a plethora of critically-acclaimed recordings of Bruckner's other middle and later symphonies so why has this particular work acquired such a reputation for being difficult to pull off in comparison?

Thanks in advance for any replies. :tiphat:


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## joen_cph

I am not a fan of Klemperer´s - there are others too, such as Blomstedt, Jochum, Wand & Celibidache, for instance, and among the really eccentric and somewhat sketchy, Swoboda. 
I find Klemperer rather subdued, and the sound isn´t that good. But will give it another listen.


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## Mahlerian

The form and character of the symphony are somewhat different from any of the others. Its boundaries seem less sharply defined than the craggy contrapuntal thickets of the Fifth or the less troubled lyricism of the Seventh. Its tonality is more fluid and unsettled (that famous coda to the first movement going through just about every single key is only a single example).


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## hpowders

One of the few Bruckner symphonies I enjoy is the Sixth. I find the adagio to be among the greatest he ever composed...so hauntingly beautiful.


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## brotagonist

Curiously, it is one I bought only a couple of weeks ago and enjoyed immediately. Initially, I had had some difficulty cracking previous purchases, such as 8 and 4. The version I bought was Kent Nagano/Deutsches SO Berlin. On the merit of that, I recently also bought 3 by the same performers (arrived a few days ago but not yet listened to).


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## hpowders

I'm obviously living on another planet. I put the Bruckner 6th right at the top of his output. Tough nut to crack???????


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## Mahlerian

hpowders said:


> I'm obviously living on another planet. I put the Bruckner 6th right at the top of his output. Tough nut to crack???????


I agree with you that the Adagio is one of his best (possibly the best of all of them), but I have reservations about the rest and it strikes me as quite strange as a whole.



brotagonist said:


> Curiously, it is one I bought only a couple of weeks ago and enjoyed immediately. Initially, I had had some difficulty cracking previous purchases, such as 8 and 4.


Which versions, if I may ask (in other words, which recordings, as I can check the version from the complete discography)? This could make quite a difference in the case of these two works.


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## hpowders

Mahlerian said:


> I agree with you that the Adagio is one of his best (possibly the best of all of them), but I have reservations about the rest and it strikes me as quite strange as a whole.
> 
> Which versions, if I may ask (in other words, which recordings, as I can check the version from the complete discography)? This could make quite a difference in the case of these two works.


We "strange" people stick together I guess.


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## Triplets

the 6th is my favorite Bruckner Symphony. I have Klemperer's recording, but I prefer the wand, which currently resides in my car's CD Player.


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## brotagonist

Mahlerian said:


> Which versions, if I may ask (in other words, which recordings, as I can check the version from the complete discography)? This could make quite a difference in the case of these two works.


Interesting that you should ask  as I just thought about and researched that myself a couple of evenings ago. My copies of Symphonies:

4 : Haitink/Concertgebouw (version 1879/1880) Decca original release 1966, reissued Decca 2012

8 : von Karajan/Wiener Philharmoniker (version 1890, ed. Haas*) DGG original release 1989, reissued DGG 2012

*I presume  this is the one also known on Wikipedia as the Haas Edition, that Haas published in 1939.


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## elgar's ghost

Triplets said:


> the 6th is my favorite Bruckner Symphony. I have Klemperer's recording, but I prefer the wand, which currently resides in my car's CD Player.


I haven't heard any of Wand's 6ths. It didn't escape my notice that Wand didn't record the 6th with the Berlin PO later on but did do 4, 5, 7, 8 & 9 which mostly received acclaim - I don't know whether death intervened or whether he just didn't want to do it again.


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## Mahlerian

brotagonist said:


> Interesting that you should ask  as I just thought about and researched that myself a couple of evenings ago. My copies of Symphonies:
> 
> 4 : Haitink/Concertgebouw (version 1879/1880) Decca original release 1966, reissued Decca 2012
> 
> 8 : von Karajan/Wiener Philharmoniker (version 1890, ed. Haas*) DGG original release 1989, reissued DGG 2012
> 
> *I presume  this is the one also known on Wikipedia as the Haas Edition, that Haas published in 1939.


Bruckner's revised versions of the 4th and 8th (the ones you have) are definitely more popular than the earlier versions. If you're interested, you should check out the early version of the 4th, which is a very different work from the revision (in some ways better, if less refined and polished), though the differences may take getting used to.


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## Art Rock

It's been a while since I played it. Here are my notes from last time:

Symphony 6 in A major (1881)
My version: Berliner Philharmoniker/von Karajan (DG, 1980, 57 min)
Of the later symphonies, the sixth probably gets the least exposure, it has even been called the ugly duckling of the lot. I beg to differ. Upon hearing it again, I like it very much, right from the characteristic first notes. It is highly melodic and has perhaps a wider variety of styles than most of his work, with passages that could also have been composed by Brahms. Yet the total is still very much Bruckner.
(ranked in the top half of his symphonies, after 9,8,4).


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## brotagonist

Mahlerian said:


> If you're interested, you should check out the early version of the 4th, which is a very different work from the revision (in some ways better, if less refined and polished), though the differences may take getting used to.


I will. I am definitely interested in hearing Bruckner's original ideas. I'm glad, however, that I purchased the more popular versions (I researched a lot before choosing), but this doesn't rule out getting other versions  since Bruckner is a composer in my _hearem_ (that's a musical harem  ).


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## omega

The first and second movement are definitely great; just because of them, it's one of my favourite Bruckner's symphonies.
Yet, I think the "tough nut" part is the fourth movement; it's both very difficult for the conductor and for the listener, since it's quite messy.


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## hpowders

So refreshing to hear Bruckner composing in the brighter key of A Major. I think that has something to do with it too.


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## Richannes Wrahms

I agree on that the second half of the work is at least less memorable than the first half.
For those new to the work and sympathetic to the passion of performers, this one is great:


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## DamoX

Love Bruckner Sym. 6 (I have Jochum's one). A sense of solidarity amongst tough-to-connect pieces like 8 or 9 cannot be heard indeed, but safe and sound texture can be given to me.


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## nightscape

After trying on Bruckner when I was a teen and then again in my mid-twenties, I just didn't get him. I sorta liked the 4th but then quickly forgot it. Didn't like the 9th. Didn't care to try anything else after that because, you know, why bother. I thought his music was nice enough but it seemed like a turgent windbag of tonal noise.

Then, I heard the 6th about 2 years ago. Everything changed. It clicked. I bought a ticket for an upcoming 9th concert and went back and listened to it, studied the score. Listened to the 7th. Listened to the 5th. Listened to the 8th.

There was some kind of perfect timing; a confluence with that point in my life and that particular symphony that altered my perception on Bruckner in a way that has never happened with another composer.

Skrowaczewski nails the 6th too.


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## hpowders

Seems like some of us have experienced the same thing with Bruckner. We don't "get" his music until we hear the Sixth Symphony. Fascinating! Good to know I'm not alone in this!


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## Richannes Wrahms

I think Bernstein only ever conducted the 6th and the 9th, the latter being the one he performed regularly. He presumably didn't like many of Bruckner's stylistic traits, he still knew the notes in the page very well.


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## jim prideaux

In February I had the good fortune to be in Vienna and got hold of a ticket for the VPO ( the apparently less than popular Welser Most conducting)-programme included Bruckner 6th and having paid scant regard to the man for years the 6th reminded me of what I had been missing-I heartily enjoyed the performance, particularly the momentum of the 1st movement and the adagio!


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## superhorn

Yjr Bruckner 6th is certainly not a "tough nut" once you get accustomed to it . It's relatively short compared to the other Bruckner symphonies except for the 
sadly neglected first , which is about the same length as the Brahms first .
It's not easy for conductors and orchestras ; the first movement in particular has odd cross rhythms which are very difficult to 
play precisely , and are not quite together in a fair number of recordings . The Keilberth/BPO recording on Teldec 
nails them , and is overall a terrific performance .


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## superhorn

Oops. I meant to write "The Bruckner 6th. My eyesight is still fuzzy two months after my operation for a detached retina !


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## clavichorder

Yeah, I don't know why people think its a strange work. It was the first Bruckner symphony I really enjoyed. Maybe its because it has the single more interesting beginning of them all, and that hooked me. I initially came into Bruckner expecting things to be strange.


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## hpowders

It has the most haunting slow movement. It's playing in my head right now!!


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## Vaneyes

Richannes Wrahms said:


> I agree on that the second half of the work is at least less memorable than the first half.
> For those new to the work and sympathetic to the passion of performers, this one is great:


Re BBCPO/Mena Bruckner 6, I wasn't convinced. It didn't have the sound or feel, washing over too many moments. Twas strangely Elgarian in places. Too much fruit. Not enough earth.

I do like Schubert "Tragic" from this collaboration.:tiphat:


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## hpowders

I have two different Jochum performances of it. Time to play them again.


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## nightscape

clavichorder said:


> Maybe its because it has the single more interesting beginning of them all, and that hooked me.


I recall my first impression was that it didn't sound like Bruckner, or at least the Bruckner I expected. Keep in mind, this was coming from someone who wasn't really familiar with him aside from a few lame passing attempts. So when I caught the first movement on YouTube (I was in a classical music zone, just clicking on one thing to the next, and stumbled upon it basically by accident) I was taken aback. "_This _is Bruckner?!"

For some inexplicable reason I did not expect it to be that...._cool_.


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## hpowders

I played the Bruckner 6th-one of the Jochum performances. Excellent. What an adagio!


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## DamoX

hpowders said:


> I played the Bruckner 6th-one of the Jochum performances. Excellent. What an adagio!


One of my favs. :clap:


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## hpowders

DamoX said:


> One of my favs. :clap:


Brilliant minds think alike! :lol:


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## Skilmarilion

hpowders said:


> It has the most haunting slow movement. It's playing in my head right now!!


I know the feeling. 

That opening oboe passage is stupendously gorgeous.


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## hpowders

Skilmarilion said:


> I know the feeling.
> 
> That opening oboe passage is stupendously gorgeous.


It's still playing in my head. Reminds me of Wagner's Tristan und Isolde.


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## Konsgaard

An amazing and underrated symphony. I've got several recordings of it, my favourites being Blomstedt, Barenboim/BPO, and Wand. There is an outstanding recording by Furtwangler from the 1940s, which is simply the best performance I've heard, despite the fact that one movement is sadly missing.


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## andyadler

I'd urge anyone who cherishes the Bruckner Sixth -- as I do -- to seek out the Decca/London recording of Horst Stein conducting the Vienna Philharmonic. It's a performance of genuine nobility, just as is Stein's VPO account of the Second. The Sixth was the first Bruckner symphony I ever heard, over WXXI in Rochester, N.Y. in the spring of 1977 when I was a sophomore at the University of Rochester. I immediately ran down to the local record store and snagged the only LP of the Sixth I could find, which was this one. It's remained my favorite ever since.

Regards from New Orleans...A.


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## opus55

Sixth was my first intro to Bruckner (Wand/NDRSinfonie/RCARedSeal) and immediately enjoyed it. 8, 9 and 6 are my favorites and others I still have difficulty with.


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## Karafan

opus55 said:


> Sixth was my first intro to Bruckner (Wand/NDRSinfonie/RCARedSeal) and immediately enjoyed it. 8, 9 and 6 are my favorites and others I still have difficulty with.


You have difficulty with 4, 5 and 7? I found them the most accessible, closely followed by 6 and 9...


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## Polyphemus

Have to make a mention here of the Bruckner master Haitink, his 2007 recording with the Dresden Orchestra is a joy, on the Hanssler Profil label.
Klemperer's will always be first choice in this though.


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## elgar's ghost

Polyphemus said:


> Have to make a mention here of the Bruckner master Haitink, his 2007 recording with the Dresden Orchestra is a joy, on the Hanssler Profil label.
> Klemperer's will always be first choice in this though.


I like this Haitink, too. And the Stein recording as mentioned by andyadler (sorry - I've forgotten how to doublequote in one reply).

I know there was a previous recording of the 6th by Haitink on Philips but I've not heard it in order to compare with the later Hannsler.


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## DavidA

I've got Tintner and Karajan. Both very good performances. The sixth is a very beautiful work, especially the slow movement.


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## hpowders

It's really a fine symphony...up until the final movement. In my opinion, that's the weak link.


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## Albert7

I need to explore more Bruckner in fact. I have been immersed in Mahler lately so I feel that Bruckner would be a wonderful complement.

I just saw this documentary about his life along with Brahms:






You guys ought to watch this. I appreciated Bruckner's Mass a lot more after seeing this.


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## licorice stick

6 is my favorite Bruckner symphony and falls in my top 10 symphonies. Jochum/BRSO is an amazing recording -- structurally and rhythmically impeccable, Jochum restraining from unnecessary rubato; it can be found on YT. I think of the opening rhythmic motif in the first movement as enigmatic morse code, first deciphered by the cellos, with the urgent crux of the message then pounded out in the brass. The whole symphony has this ambiguous yet strangely methodical character, in many ways similar to the otherworldly ambiance of all his music, but different in its lack of satisfaction (or sense of transcendence) in the answer to the "musical problem." This puts it in the realm of great symphonies for me, alongside Beethoven 6 and Mahler 6.


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## Gaspard de la Nuit

I said this in the other Bruckner thread, but his forceful major-phrygian opening theme is so unique among Austro-German composers, and even French composers never pulled off anything so dramatic in all their Spanish-inspired output. I'm not sure what Bruckner was thinking, because that mode is so clearly evocative of things that seem distant from him and his world, but my ears pricked when I first heard it.

The final movement has that counterpoint (the second theme) that reminds me a lot of Isolde's Verklarung "mild und leise", it also has some phrygian tendencies that are very powerful.

Like Bruckner's other works, it's a conglomeration of potent ideas that are put together in a sort of blundering way, but the 6th stands out as being totally unique, incomparable to anything produced by any contemporary or near-contemporary.


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