# Undeserved title characters



## Tuoksu (Sep 3, 2015)

Some operas, in my opinion, are named after the wrong (not to say the least deserving) characters. 
For instance, in Il Trovatore Azucena is far more deserving of the title than Manrico and Aida should be renamed Amneris. 
What are your thoughts?


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

You've got a point, both those characters are more interesting than the title role in each opera.

Meistersinger could easily have been called Hans Sachs and I agree with those who think that Eugene Onegin should be called Tatyana.

However, the one I feel most strongly about is Die Walkure. It could have been called Der Gott (but that sounds silly and isn't it more subtle not to explicitly state that Wotan is the main character of the Ring)?

So, does the title role have to be the main focus or the most interesting character of the work?

N.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

I'd reverse the names of Tristan and Isolde. Of course that would never fly in a patriarchal culture, but the woman really is the prime mover in the story.

Maybe "The Marriage of Figaro" could be called something else. How about "La Clemenza di Rosina?"


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## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

Tuoksu said:


> Some operas, in my opinion, are named after the wrong (not to say the least deserving) characters.
> For instance, in Il Trovatore Azucena is far more deserving of the title than Manrico and Aida should be renamed Amneris.
> What are your thoughts?


It's always lovely to meet another fanboy/fangirl of Verdi mezzo roles. some of the best music ever written imo


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## Tuoksu (Sep 3, 2015)

BalalaikaBoy said:


> It's always lovely to meet another fanboy/fangirl of Verdi mezzo roles. *some of the best music ever written imo *


Amen to that! Seriously I wrote this post after seeing Cossotto's met 1985 Amneris.


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## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

really though, Azucena might honestly be my favorite opera character of all time. it's hilarious to me when mezzos complain about how they "don't get any of the good roles"


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Verdi's "Macbeth" should be called "La Sonnambula."


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## Revitalized Classics (Oct 31, 2018)

Verdi's *Don Carlo(s)* - Philip seems much more interesting.

I'm not sure that opera management quite knew what to do with the title role when it was revived in the fifties and sixties. In North America the casting could be starry - Bjorling, Tucker, later Corelli.

In Europe this was the exception. Yes, Vickers was there with Giulini at Covent Garden. However, it is conspicuous how many casts in the fifties and sixties have protagonists who are capable but far from household names.

You find tenors in broadcasts and recordings of Don Carlo who hardly figured in recording studios and never in more mainstream parts. In what you might otherwise call all-star casts you have Picchi, Soler, lo Forese, Fernandi, Gari, Gibin, Labo, Ottolini, Zampieri, Ulfung etc. They never(?) got the broadcasts of juicy parts like Rodolfo, Manrico, Cavaradossi. It was years until Bergonzi sang it in the studio and about twenty until Carreras/Domingo/Aragall (forty for Pavarotti and then fleetingly).

Verdi's *Macbeth* - Lady Macbeth is arguably the more grateful part. I'm not sure that anyone has had a breakthrough success in the baritone role. Lots of talk about Callas, Rysanek, Nilsson, Verrett, some alarm at Souliotis and Zampieri and...largely meh about the baritones. Bruson sounds like Taddei, Fischer-Dieskau was miscast etc. The closest you get to strength of feeling are recriminations that an imagined Gobbi/Callas set was _not_ recorded.

Verdi's *Otello* - could have easily been called Iago.

Gounod's *Faust* - depending on the cast it can seem like Marguerite, the Devil or Valentin (or perhaps even Siebel :lol steal the show

Best wishes
David


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Revitalized Classics said:


> Verdi's *Otello* - could have easily been called Iago.


Apparently that was the original intention, since it was customary not to name a new opera after one still in the repertoire (in this case Rossini's), but ultimately Verdi chose to break the tradition. Iago is just as strong a role, though, and could easily steal the show until he recedes from view in Act 4.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Woodduck said:


> Verdi's "Macbeth" should be called "La Sonnambula."


Hahaha. Mind you, I often think the play should also be called _Lady Macbeth_, for it is she who drives the drama. She is a far more interesting character than her rather weak-willed husband, is she not?


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Revitalized Classics said:


> Verdi's *Don Carlo(s)* - Philip seems much more interesting.
> 
> I'm not sure that opera management quite knew what to do with the title role when it was revived in the fifties and sixties. In North America the casting could be starry - Bjorling, Tucker, later Corelli.
> 
> ...


Or maybe the opera should be called _Il Grande Inquisatore_ as it his influence that hovers over the whole opera.

I actually think Carlo is one of Verdi's most interesting tenor roles, a long way from the conventional hero tenors often are. He is a weak character, desperately trying to get the approval of a father who mostly ignores him, and thwarts any of his efforts to make something of himself. His father wishes that his son was more like Posa, and Carlo loves and admires Posa with an almost fanatical devotion that borders on the homoerotic.

Vocally it may offer the tenor less of a challenge than Verdi's other tenor roles, but histrionically it's a plum.


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## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

How about Menotti's _The Consul_? The eponymous character doesn't even appear.


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## Reichstag aus LICHT (Oct 25, 2010)

I've converted some opera titles into other, possibly more straightforward, ones:

Tristan und Isolde -> L'Elisir d'Amore
Götterdämmerung -> La Forza del Destino
La Gioconda -> Death in Venice
A Midsummer Night's Dream -> Die Feen
Les Troyens -> Dido and Aeneas
Lulu -> La Traviata
Lakmé -> Les Indes Galantes
The Man who Mistook his Wife for a Hat -> Fedora


And, finally, this one needed a two-step conversion:

Wozzeck -> Marie -> La Fille du Régiment


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## Zhdanov (Feb 16, 2016)

Tuoksu said:


> Aida should be renamed Amneris.


Radames, for that matter.


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## Zhdanov (Feb 16, 2016)

The Conte said:


> Meistersinger could easily have been called Hans Sachs


traditor... idolize one man while forget the people?



The Conte said:


> Eugene Onegin should be called Tatyana.


sospiro... hope feminists don't grab that idea.



The Conte said:


> Die Walkure. It could have been called Der Gott


coraggio... those feminists are after you.


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## Tuoksu (Sep 3, 2015)

Woodduck said:


> Verdi's "Macbeth" should be called "La Sonnambula."





Reichstag aus LICHT said:


> I've converted some opera titles into other, possibly more straightforward, ones:
> 
> Tristan und Isolde -> L'Elisir d'Amore
> Götterdämmerung -> La Forza del Destino
> ...


:lol: this is pure gold !


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Tsaraslondon said:


> Hahaha. Mind you, I often think the play should also be called _Lady Macbeth_, for it is she who drives the drama. She is a far more interesting character than her rather weak-willed husband, is she not?


I agree - and in the opera he's overshadowed even more. I haven't heard the entire opera for a few years, and can't remember a note he sings, while "Vieni t'affretta," "La luce langue," the drinking song and the sleepwalking scene haunt the memory.


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## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

Tsaraslondon said:


> Hahaha. Mind you, I often think the play should also be called _Lady Macbeth_, for it is she who drives the drama. She is a far more interesting character than her rather weak-willed husband, is she not?


agreed. most opera afficionados know all of her arias while few people remember any of Macbeth's music (does he even have an aria?)


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Woodduck said:


> I agree - and in the opera he's overshadowed even more. I haven't heard the entire opera for a few years, and can't remember a note he sings, while "Vieni t'affretta," "La luce langue," the drinking song and the sleepwalking scene haunt the memory.


Oddly the other most well known aria is _Ah, la paterna mano_ sung by the relatively minor character of MacDuff.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Tsaraslondon said:


> Oddly the other most well known aria is _Ah, la paterna mano_ sung by the relatively minor character of MacDuff.


Just who does that duffer think he is, getting an aria all to himself?


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## Reichstag aus LICHT (Oct 25, 2010)

BalalaikaBoy said:


> agreed. most opera afficionados know all of her arias while few people remember any of Macbeth's music (does he even have an aria?)


I had to look it up on the Aria Database! There are two listed there: _O lieto augurio_ (described as an Arioso) and _Pietà, risotto, amore_, neither of which rang any bells, to be honest.


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## mountmccabe (May 1, 2013)

elgars ghost said:


> How about Menotti's _The Consul_? The eponymous character doesn't even appear.


You're not going to like _En attendant Godot_ either, huh.

* OK, fine, there is, to my knowledge, not an operatic adaptation of that play.


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## Tuoksu (Sep 3, 2015)

Woodduck said:


> I agree - and in the opera he's overshadowed even more. I haven't heard the entire opera for a few years, and can't remember a note he sings, while "Vieni t'affretta," "La luce langue," the drinking song and the sleepwalking scene haunt the memory.


Actually, for me, albeit overshadowed, I do enjoy his music far more than Lady's. Macbeth's music and text make me wish I was a Baritone. He doesn't have real "numbers", but "Mi si affaccia un pugnal", the entire Act 3 with le streghe and "perfidi.. pieta rispetto amore" are far more interesting that Lady M's showpieces in my opinion. The most interesting of all, though, is "di voi chi cio fece.. sangue a me" at the end of act II in which he has to give so much vocally and dramatically. It's a much more complex and demanding role than Lady Macbeth.



BalalaikaBoy said:


> agreed. most opera afficionados know all of her arias while few people remember any of Macbeth's music (does he even have an aria?)





Woodduck said:


> Just who does that duffer think he is, getting an aria all to himself?





Reichstag aus LICHT said:


> I had to look it up on the Aria Database! There are two listed there: _O lieto augurio_ (described as an Arioso) and _Pietà, risotto, amore_, neither of which rang any bells, to be honest.


You guys haven't listened to macbeth in its entirely enough times (if at all) :lol: Or maybe I spent too much time with the opera, being my favorite and all.


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## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

Tuoksu said:


> Actually, for me, albeit overshadowed, I do enjoy his music far more than Lady's. Macbeth's music and text make me wish I was a Baritone. He doesn't have real "numbers", but "Mi si affaccia un pugnal", the entire Act 3 with le streghe and "perfidi.. pieta rispetto amore" are far more interesting that Lady M's showpieces in my opinion. The most interesting of all, though, is "di voi chi cio fece.. sangue a me" at the end of act II in which he has to give so much vocally and dramatically. It's a much more complex and demanding role than Lady Macbeth.
> 
> You guys haven't listened to macbeth in its entirely enough times (if at all) :lol: Or maybe I spent too much time with the opera, being my favorite and all.


guilty as charged. I listened to like one recording and the whole time I was just like "wow, Callas slays!". everyone else was boring XD


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## Tuoksu (Sep 3, 2015)

BalalaikaBoy said:


> guilty as charged. I listened to like one recording and the whole time I was just like "wow, Callas slays!". everyone else was boring XD


I get it, the 1952 di Sabata Scala recording is all about Callas' magnificence. Everything else pales in comparison, especially that the supporting cast was obviously no match to her musical genius and sheer vocal power that night.


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## howlingfantods (Jul 27, 2015)

That lady from Arles doesn't even appear on stage, what the hell....


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Tuoksu said:


> I get it, the 1952 di Sabata Scala recording is all about Callas' magnificence. Everything else pales in comparison, especially that the supporting cast was obviously no match to her musical genius and sheer vocal power that night.


I can never understand this business of listening exclusively to one interpreter, however magnetic. For me part of the fun lies in the differences various interpreters bring to the role. And the actual recording quality of the de DeSabata Macbeth is pretty dire.


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## Zhdanov (Feb 16, 2016)

"Carmen" should have been titled "Micaëla".


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## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

Zhdanov said:


> "Carmen" should have been titled "Micaëla".


BO-RING! 

....okay seriously though, no one goes to see Micaela except for the soprano's mother in the audience


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

BalalaikaBoy said:


> BO-RING!
> 
> ....okay seriously though, no one goes to see Micaela except for the soprano's mother in the audience


Micaela is so uninteresting compared to Carmen that nobody is even interested in pointing out that she's uninteresting.


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## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

oo! I have one. Turandot would have been a much more interesting and moving opera if Liu were the central character.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

BalalaikaBoy said:


> oo! I have one. Turandot would have been a much more interesting and moving opera if Liu were the central character.


Reasonable... Of course then we'd have just one more Puccini opera centered on a young female victim.


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## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

Woodduck said:


> Reasonable... Of course then we'd have just one more Puccini opera centered on a young female victim.


in this case one who was a little better written.


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

Should Puccini's opera should have been called _Buoso Donati_?


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## Zhdanov (Feb 16, 2016)

BalalaikaBoy said:


> no one goes to see Micaela





Woodduck said:


> Micaela is so uninteresting


but hers is best aria from the entire piece:











and she's the best person character among them all in there.


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## Zhdanov (Feb 16, 2016)

Micaëla is the only sane & godly character in 'Carmen'.

and Bizet has marked her aria with the noble horns for a reason.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Micaela was inserted into the opera precisely because it was feared that without a "good girl" audiences would find the story too scandalous. She was not in the Merimee novella on which the opera was based. Her music is unquestionably lovely. But she's still uninteresting.


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## Reichstag aus LICHT (Oct 25, 2010)

Zhdanov said:


> Micaëla is the only sane & godly character in 'Carmen'.


Going off on a tangent, I started to think of other characters in the opera and got to the minor spoken role of Lillas Pastia. I was reminded of a Jonathan Miller production where he was rebuking a bunch of rowdy customers in his tavern, to which one of them responds with "Pi$$ off, Pastia!". A throwaway line, but it amused me at the time, and the memory of it still does.


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## Zhdanov (Feb 16, 2016)

Woodduck said:


> Her music is unquestionably lovely. But she's still uninteresting.


but she is not about being 'interesting'.

she is about being *pure*.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Zhdanov said:


> but she is not about being 'interesting'.
> 
> she is about being *pure*.


Absolutely. People who go on about her being uninteresting are surely missing the point of why she is there. She is included to provide a contrast to Carmen and her buddies who are obviously ladies of easy virtue. She is also there to give a lovely aria 'Je dis'. Funny how some people find loveliness uninteresting. I rather who for it myself.
Having said that the opera is obviously about the anti-heroine Carmen so it is correctly named.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Zhdanov said:


> but she is not about being 'interesting'.
> 
> she is about being *pure*.


Exactly.  .............


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## howlingfantods (Jul 27, 2015)

BalalaikaBoy said:


> oo! I have one. Turandot would have been a much more interesting and moving opera if Liu were the central character.


Puccini was trying to do something new with "Turandot", but his instincts were clearly at odds with what he was trying to do. He wrote fantastic and awe inspiring music for Turandot, but all the most touching and sympathetic music for Liu, leading to the fundamental problem with the opera that the audience feels with Liu and not at all for Turandot, making the central romance basically repellent.

There are those who believe that "Turandot" wasn't left unfinished because of Puccini's death, but because Puccini was artistically and temperamentally incapable of writing music out of the corner he'd put himself in. In his notes left after his death, there's the intriguing note for what was to come next-- "and then, Tristan". In other words, he'd set up for himself the challenge of writing music comparable to "O sink hernieder", a love duet so ravishing and beautiful that you could buy the central romance after the torture and death of Liu. Which... I admire the ambition but it's a pretty big challenge to set up for yourself, to write a love duet as great as the greatest one ever written.

So no, I don't agree that this should have been called "Liu" or that this should have been rewritten to make her the tragic heroine. That would have been a retread, and Puccini to his credit wasn't interested in doing a retread in different dressing. "Turandot" is a testament to Puccini's seriousness and artistic ambition, as much of a lightweight as many haters think him to be.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

I'm one of those who think that Puccini painted himself into a corner with the suicide of Liu, and that there is no way to end the opera that would make the "love" of Turandot and Calaf morally palatable. In the light of this, I have nothing against Alfano's ending, which makes very competent use of Puccini's music and doesn't try to make a statement of its own, letting the dramatic chips fall where they may.

The enchanting score of_Turandot_ only partly redeems (or obscures) its dramatic flaw. The opera aspires to a larger-than-life mythical dimension - the heroine is goddess-like in her remoteness, power and mystery, and the hero has the bearing and voice of a heldentenor - but in the end Puccini's quasi-Wagnerian ambition crushes the simple, down-to-earth human element of the story. I might have advised him to reconceive the ending entirely, have Calaf snap out of his obsession when confronted with Liu's sacrifice, denounce Turandot's cruelty, and either go willingly to his own execution or pick up Liu's body and bear her back to his own kingdom, a wiser man. Considering that Turandot doesn't even appear until we're well into the opera, her significance could be more that of a romantic vision than of an actual person, throwing the story's focus onto Calaf's propensity for chasing a dangerous illusion which ultimately robs him of the opportunity for genuine love with a woman he failed to appreciate.

I seem to be looking for a way to rename the opera "Calaf."


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

DavidA said:


> Absolutely. People who go on about her being uninteresting are surely missing the point of why she is there. She is included to provide a contrast to Carmen and her buddies who are obviously ladies of easy virtue. She is also there to give a lovely aria 'Je dis'. Funny how some people find loveliness uninteresting. I rather who for it myself.
> Having said that the opera is obviously about the anti-heroine Carmen so it is correctly named.


How would you know what point what people are missing? Micaela is in the opera to keep 19th-century audiences and critics happy. Merimee wrote a perfectly good story without her, but the producers were nervous about putting it on the stage of the _opera comique._ Micaela provides a reassuring note of moral sanctity. I guess we could have her wander in at the end, put her arm around poor stupid Jose, take him to the police station to face arrest, and bring him milk and cookies in prison.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

BalalaikaBoy said:


> oo! I have one. Turandot would have been a much more interesting and moving opera if Liu were the central character.


Quite comply Turandot dominates every bit of the action whether or not she is on the stage.


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## Sloe (May 9, 2014)

Woodduck said:


> How would you know what point what people are missing? Micaela is in the opera to keep 19th-century audiences and critics happy. Merimee wrote a perfectly good story without her, but the producers were nervous about putting it on the stage of the _opera comique._ Micaela provides a reassuring note of moral sanctity. I guess we could have her wander in at the end, put her arm around poor stupid Jose, take him to the police station to face arrest, and bring him milk and cookies in prison.


I am in this regard a 19:th century audience and I like that there is one nice person in the opera.


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## Sieglinde (Oct 25, 2009)

Woodduck said:


> Micaela was inserted into the opera precisely because it was feared that without a "good girl" audiences would find the story too scandalous. She was not in the Merimee novella on which the opera was based. Her music is unquestionably lovely. But she's still uninteresting.


Micaela is a female Don Ottavio. Very pretty music but incredibly boring character.


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## CnC Bartok (Jun 5, 2017)

Woodduck said:


> Micaela is so uninteresting compared to Carmen that nobody is even interested in pointing out that she's uninteresting.


Well you say that.....

The last time I saw Carmen staged, the Michaela was absolutely gorgeous, and she sang better than Carmen. Forgotten names sorry, but she was gorgeous. Have I mentioned that already? :devil:

Admittedly renaming Carmen after Michaela would be akin to renaming Gotterdammerung Gunther?


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Sieglinde said:


> Micaela is a female Don Ottavio. Very pretty music but incredibly boring character.


I think these comments about Michaela simply fail to cotton on to the part she plays in the drama. She is the 'good girl' of course, but she is there as a contrast to Carmen and her friends who are the ladies of easy virtue. Michaela is there to tell us of the life Jose might have had without Carmen - 'boring' but happy! Oh, and alive too!


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

CnC Bartok said:


> Well you say that.....
> 
> The last time I saw Carmen staged, *the Michaela was absolutely gorgeous*, and she sang better than Carmen. Forgotten names sorry, but she was gorgeous. Have I mentioned that already? :devil:
> 
> Admittedly renaming Carmen after Michaela would be akin to renaming Gotterdammerung Gunther?


This is one problem with opera. You can be wondering why on earth Jose falls for Carmen rather than Michaela. I have a DVD of Tristan which I got in a charity shop for next to nothing where the Isolde resembles a battleship. She is enormous. By contrast the Brangaena is rather attractive. You just wonder what Tristan was up to!


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

DavidA said:


> I think these comments about Michaela simply fail to cotton on to the part she plays in the drama. She is the 'good girl' of course, but she is there as a contrast to Carmen and her friends who are the ladies of easy virtue. Michaela is there to tell us of the life Jose might have had without Carmen - 'boring' but happy!


Everyone knows the part she plays in the drama. She is nevertheless an uninteresting character. How do you know that Jose's life without Carmen would have been happy? He would probably have found some way of making Micaela miserable.



> This is one problem with opera. You can be wondering why on earth Jose falls for Carmen rather than Michaela. I have a DVD of Tristan which I got in a charity shop for next to nothing where the Isolde resembles a battleship. She is enormous. By contrast the Brangaena is rather attractive. You just wonder what Tristan was up to!


What's the "problem"? Would opera be better as an endless pageant of happily married village sweethearts? As for your suggestion that only "attractive" women deserve to be loved...


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## Tuoksu (Sep 3, 2015)

Woodduck said:


> I'd reverse the names of Tristan and Isolde. Of course that would never fly in a patriarchal culture, but the woman really is the prime mover in the story.


In the same vein, I'd reverse Samson and Dalila


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