# Recommend a St. Matthew Passion recording



## Meaghan

I realized I have yet to hear this work in its entirety, so (being home) I went looking through my parents' recordings and found one, a rather new one--Riccardo Chailly with the Gewandhausorchester. I was just listening to it and was a bit put off right from the beginning. The tempo for "Kommt, ihr Tochter, helft mir klagen" seemed too fast, which lessened its impact.

So, though I will try the rest because maybe I'll like it better, I want to find a different recording of the St. Matthew Passion. What recording do you like, and, importantly, _why_ do you like it?

Thanks!


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## World Violist

My first St. Matthew was Richter's video recording of it, and I actually like that one quite a lot. It's definitely (defiantly?) not HIP in the current sense (vibrato, large ensemble, slowish tempi), but it's very light compared to Klemperer, Mengelberg, etc. There's a dignity and spiritual integrity to it that I've always deeply admired, though, and tremendous dramatic purpose and import; hearing "Erbarme dich" from this video alone is deeply moving, but watching it in the whole context is shattering. The sheer depth of the whole work is brought out amazingly well.

I'm no expert on this piece, by the way, but another to consider is Suzuki's (obviously). It's different than others. One interesting thing I read about it that I happen to agree with is that it doesn't feel like an enactment of the passion story so much as a re-telling of it, somewhat detached. It's not really a first-choice one, but it's still darn good.

You might also want to check out Herreweghe. It's quite highly thought-of (the newer one, that is...although I can't find the older one so I don't know if that distinction matters) though I haven't heard it.


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## Meaghan

Thank you, that is helpful! The Richter one sounds lovely, and I don't require HIP, though I like exploring it. I think I will try to find this one.


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## GKC

Try this one:

http://www.haenssler-classic.de/en/...atthew-passion-bwv-244/13231/13231/13231.html

You can listen to "Kommt, Ihr Toechter" (and other tracks) to see if tempos suit. I love this recording because everything about it is beautiful. M. Schade is amazing as evangelist and M. Goerne is no less as Jesus. (how do you do umlauts here?)

GKC


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## Vaneyes

I like the Herreweghe's intimacy and impeccable sound. Everything is so sensible and user-friendly. It's a classical sauna.


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## StlukesguildOhio

I quite like what I've heard of Suzuki... although there is something stark or detached... quite removed from my other experiences of Bach. Herreweghe is most certainly a top choice. For me, however, the top choice would have to be that of John Eliot Gardiner with the English Baroque Soloists and the Monteverdi Choir... and just look at some of the soloists: Anthony Rolfe Johnson, Barbara Bonney, Anne Sofie von Otter, Michael Chance...











Gardiner's recording IS HIP. His pacing is appropriate for the profundity of the subject, but also brisk enough so as to avoid the deadening leaden effect of older recordings, and to emphasize the drama and the urgency. The orchestra, choir, and soloists are all top notch and their performance is laden with emotion.

Seriously, considering that this box set...










can be had for perhaps less than twice what many St. Matthew Passion recordings go for in spite of the fact that this set includes 22 discs: the St. John AND St. Matthew Passions, the Mass in B minor, the Magnificat, the Easter Oratorio, and some 10 discs of the finest cantatas... all in recordings regarded as the first choice (or one of the first choices), I can't find a better place to start with Bach's choral works.


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## HarpsichordConcerto

StlukesguildOhio said:


> ... For me, however, the top choice would have to be that of *John Eliot Gardiner with the English Baroque Soloists and the Monteverdi Choir*... and just look at some of the soloists: Anthony Rolfe Johnson, Barbara Bonney, Anne Sofie von Otter, Michael Chance...


I concur.

To me, modern instrument versions of this masterpiece from decades past just sound horrible.


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## AnalogReigns

Meaghan said:


> ... found one, a rather new one--Riccardo Chailly with the Gewandhausorchester. I was just listening to it and was a bit put off right from the beginning. The tempo for "Kommt, ihr Tochter, helft mir klagen" seemed too fast, which lessened its impact.
> 
> So, though I will try the rest because maybe I'll like it better, I want to find a different recording of the St. Matthew Passion. What recording do you like, and, importantly, _why_ do you like it?
> 
> Thanks!


I have to say, though I'm no afficianado, I love the Chailly recording which put you off. Probably because I've been to Leipzig, and I like the idea of this being done by the Thomanerchor (the same choir Bach led) and I'm a sucker for boys choirs (the only female voices in this recording are soloists)...but I can understand how the etherial light sound of a boys chorus instead of women sounds odd, when you're not used to it. It is however, how Bach would of know it though, isn't it?

As to the faster tempo...it's my understanding that musicologists have found that typically the original baroque performances were done at a noticeably faster/lighter tempo than modern large/heavy orchestra/choirs usually attempt.

This is the first Mattheuspassion I've listened through, so perhaps I'm prejudiced, but I love the mysterious dancing tempo and light(er) voices...just seems more authentic to me. But hey, what do I know?


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## Amfibius

These are the St Matts in my collection at the moment:

- Klemperer
- Richter
- Gardiner
- Rilling
- Herreweghe (both of them)
- van Veldhoven

Unfortunately, I have to give a big thumbs down to the Gardiner. He takes it at a much faster tempo than the others, such that _Komm ihr tochter_ sounds more like a gay dance than the serious work that it is. It is lacking in gravity. I acknowledge that I have the minority opinion on this one - it seems to be well reviewed and comes highly recommended by many. It just doesn't work for me.

I also have to give another thumbs down to the van Veldhoven. Of all the versions of St Matts, the sonics on this one are the best (released on SACD). The players sing with a lot of commitment, but the performance can be a little bit scrappy, and again - seems to be lacking in gravity.

All of the others (Klemperer, Richter, Rilling, Herreweghe) can be safely recommended, but with a couple of asterisks against the Klemperer and Richter. The Klemperer is a landmark recording, featuring outstanding singers like Elisabeth Schwarzkopf, Dietrich Fischer-Dieskau (when he was still young and smoking!), and Peter Pears. This is probably as far away from Bach as it is possible - the orchestral forces are massive, and the chorus is overwhelming. The tempo is exceedingly slow, such that there is an anecdote that Fischer-Dieskau complained to Klemperer that the soloists were turning blue sustaining the long notes. Klemperer frowned and conducted even slower still! The sound is quite muddy, and it is difficult to hear what the chorus is singing. However - this recording positively throbs with emotion and tragedy, and you really feel as if the performers are Christians singing in fear of God.

I have to put another asterisk for the Richter. He uses a modern orchestra, but it is cut down in size compared to Klemperer. The chorus in this recording is exceedingly good - not surprising given Richter's career. Richter's conducting is absolutely straight laced and traditional. Norman Lebrecht did not like Richter - he said that Richter played in a way that made Germans feel safe to be Germans (remember, this was in the 1950's, soon after the war). It is not HIP, but it is still an enjoyable recording.

If you are after a HIP recording, the Herreweghe can be safely recommended. Both the earlier and later recordings are good, but I prefer the one with Bostridge as the evangelist.


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## annie

i keep gardiner, harnoncourt, klemperer, solti, suzuki & butt and quiet happy from all of them for different reasons except harnoncourt's and butt's


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## itywltmt

The version I own is by La Petite Bande conducted by Gustav Leonhardt.










I downloaded it from
http://avaxhome.ws/music/classical/BMPL_flac.html


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## sospiro

Amfibius said:


> These are the St Matts in my collection at the moment:
> 
> - Klemperer
> - Richter
> - Gardiner
> - Rilling
> - Herreweghe (both of them)
> - van Veldhoven
> 
> Unfortunately, I have to give a big thumbs down to the Gardiner. He takes it at a much faster tempo than the others, such that _Komm ihr tochter_ sounds more like a gay dance than the serious work that it is. It is lacking in gravity. I acknowledge that I have the minority opinion on this one - it seems to be well reviewed and comes highly recommended by many. It just doesn't work for me.
> 
> I also have to give another thumbs down to the van Veldhoven. Of all the versions of St Matts, the sonics on this one are the best (released on SACD). The players sing with a lot of commitment, but the performance can be a little bit scrappy, and again - seems to be lacking in gravity.
> 
> All of the others (Klemperer, Richter, Rilling, Herreweghe) can be safely recommended, but with a couple of asterisks against the Klemperer and Richter. The Klemperer is a landmark recording, featuring outstanding singers like Elisabeth Schwarzkopf, Dietrich Fischer-Dieskau (when he was still young and smoking!), and Peter Pears. This is probably as far away from Bach as it is possible - the orchestral forces are massive, and the chorus is overwhelming. The tempo is exceedingly slow, such that there is an anecdote that Fischer-Dieskau complained to Klemperer that the soloists were turning blue sustaining the long notes. Klemperer frowned and conducted even slower still! The sound is quite muddy, and it is difficult to hear what the chorus is singing. However - this recording positively throbs with emotion and tragedy, and you really feel as if the performers are Christians singing in fear of God.
> 
> I have to put another asterisk for the Richter. He uses a modern orchestra, but it is cut down in size compared to Klemperer. The chorus in this recording is exceedingly good - not surprising given Richter's career. Richter's conducting is absolutely straight laced and traditional. Norman Lebrecht did not like Richter - he said that Richter played in a way that made Germans feel safe to be Germans (remember, this was in the 1950's, soon after the war). It is not HIP, but it is still an enjoyable recording.
> 
> If you are after a HIP recording, the Herreweghe can be safely recommended. Both the earlier and later recordings are good, but I prefer the one with Bostridge as the evangelist.


To my shame, I don't know this work at all. I'm going to see it here & I want to familiarise myself with it.

Someone lent me a CD a few months ago & I copied it on to my PC but never played it. Now I've come to play it, it's faulty, but I love what I managed to listen to.

I don't really know what I'm looking for but I'd be very grateful if you could give me a link to one with a good libretto booklet.


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## Amfibius

Hi Annie, every recording I listed in my post above has a good libretto. Unfortunately, I am not aware of one online. However - when I typed "St Matthews Passion libretto" into Google, the 6th suggestion links to a PDF of "part one" of St. Matts. I don't know where the other parts are, but you may have to dig deeper. Good luck!


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## Manxfeeder

Amfibius said:


> These are the St Matts in my collection at the moment:
> 
> The Klemperer is a landmark recording, featuring outstanding singers like Elisabeth Schwarzkopf, Dietrich Fischer-Dieskau (when he was still young and smoking!), and Peter Pears . . . However - this recording positively throbs with emotion and tragedy, and you really feel as if the performers are Christians singing in fear of God.


I'd have to agree with you. I've recently spent most of my time with Gardiner (Herreweghe hasn't done much for me), but a couple months ago I put Klemperer back on and had the same impression you've expressed. So I'm keeping both.


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## sospiro

Amfibius said:


> Hi Annie, every recording I listed in my post above has a good libretto. Unfortunately, I am not aware of one online. However - when I typed "St Matthews Passion libretto" into Google, the 6th suggestion links to a PDF of "part one" of St. Matts. I don't know where the other parts are, but you may have to dig deeper. Good luck!


Thank you Amfibius. It's a booklet I want, not an on-line one.

Sorry to be a nuisance but could you recommend one which is sing in German? I think it's also recorded in English but I would prefer German.


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## Amfibius

Annie, I am not aware of any St Matts which are not sung in German? In any case - all the St Matts which I discussed are in German.


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## quack

There are certainly a few in English: Bernstein 1962, Willcocks 1979, Brewer 1987, Skidmore 2009. Lots of detail on all things Bach here http://www.bach-cantatas.com/Vocal/BWV244.htm


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## Il_Penseroso

My Recommendation

This :










and this :










and the second I prefer personally (sorry, they are both in German !)


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## sospiro

Thanks everyone for your suggestions & recommendations. I think I'll get these.

















Stephen Cleobury is conducting the one I'm seeing so I expect it will be similar.


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## quack

Ummm those are St John's Passion, not St Matthew's. A separate work, good, but not regarded as a masterpiece like the Matthew.


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## sospiro

quack said:


> Ummm those are St John's Passion, not St Matthew's. A separate work, good, but not regarded as a masterpiece like the Matthew.


Edited. I clicked the wrong photo


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## Il_Penseroso

quack said:


> Ummm those are St John's Passion, not St Matthew's. A separate work, good, but not regarded as a masterpiece like the Matthew.


Hehe, my second recommendation too, sorry, late for editing ! But I strongly recommend Jochum recording though less known to music lovers .


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## sospiro

Il_Penseroso said:


> Hehe, my second recommendation too, sorry, late for editing ! But I strongly recommend Jochum recording ...


Thank you for the recommendation but does it come with a libretto? I have several of these Philips DUO CDs & none has a libretto.


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## Il_Penseroso

sospiro said:


> Thank you for the recommendation but does it come with a libretto? I have several of these Philips DUO CDs & none has a libretto.


Don't know Annie, I have Jochum on LP but don't know about Philips CD, for more information about the quality of recording, see here :

http://www.jsbach.org/jochemmatthaeuspassion.html

but the one you chose (Stephen Cleobury) has the libretto (with English translation) :

http://music.minnesota.publicradio.org/features/0104_passion/index.shtml#part1

http://music.minnesota.publicradio.org/features/0104_passion/index.shtml#part2


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## Itullian

Herreweghe or Suzuki

unbelievable sound, great playing hip, best imho


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## jflatter

I have to admit that generally I am not a HIP person but I like this. There are no star singers but it very much a stripped down version.


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## sospiro

jflatter said:


> I have to admit that generally I am not a HIP person but I like this. There are no star singers but it very much a stripped down version.


Thanks - will add it to the wish list.


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## TrevBus

I have 2 and like them both. Richter and Von Karajan. Richter for beauty and Von Karajan for power.

Now I am looking for a ST. JOHN'S PASSION, which sadly I do not have because I kind of like the St. John's a bit better.


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## Xaltotun

I'm late to the party but I stand for Klemperer, and I cannot explain it more beautifully than Amfibius did in his/her post.


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## DavidA

This work has a special place for my wife who was in the choir as a girl at the Festival Hall under Sir David Willcocks. I did not know it at all until I bought my wife Karl Richter's. 1958 recording. The first chord sent shivers down my spine! That old recording is still worth hearing for its reverential understanding of the work, even though it may seem somewhat slow and old fashioned now.
Since then. I have acquired Gardiner, Herrewegh (1) and Harnoncourt's last one. All superb, but I think Harnoncourt shades it.


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## fchekani

Has anybody listened to the Furtwangler version (Vienna PO, 1954)? I found it very impressive.


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## korenbloem

jflatter said:


> I have to admit that generally I am not a HIP person but I like this. There are no star singers but it very much a stripped down version.


This is indeed a terrific preformance of the Passion, but to be fair: there John Passion is slightly better. But this recording is among my favorites, notable: Richter (DG), Gardiner (Archive), Herreweghe (HM).

Did anyone hear the new recording of Gardiner?


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## Oreb

I have a very simple test for checking the quality of a recording of this timeless masterpiece.

Listen to the recitative no. 17 in Part I, the Last Supper.

If you are *not *reduced to a quivering heap, stunned by the majesty of what you have just heard, chills running up and down your back, tears in your eyes and a lump in your throat...

... then the recording is trash.

It's not a fool-proof test, because such is the greatness of the music in this section that any recording that failed would be a crime against humanity and those responsible should be put on trial at the Hague, but some are better than others.

For me, the one that passes with the most ease is Fischer-Dieskau and Pears on the Klemperer recording. The closest I've come to encountering a failure is the Herrewehge.

My advice is to test a few with that section.


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## Celloman

Rene Jacobs is certainly keeping busy these days. This is his latest release:









It's getting rave reviews, by the looks of it. I haven't listened to it yet, but I certainly would like to.


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## Winterreisender

Celloman said:


> Rene Jacobs is certainly keeping busy these days. This is his latest release:
> 
> View attachment 26470
> 
> 
> It's getting rave reviews, by the looks of it. I haven't listened to it yet, but I certainly would like to.


I will also look out for this recording. Rene Jacob's interpretations of baroque music (especially opera) on the Harmonia Mundi label have been consistently excellent.


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## Oreb

His Mozart operas have been stellar IMO. This is one I'll need to grab.


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## nightscape

Can't go wrong with Herreweghe II. Deservedly praised. I also like Suzuki, though some of the choral elements, such as the children's choir, isn't mixed terrifically well.


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## DavidA

Jacobs is predictably thought provoking with varying balances.

Karajan is the romantic approach (love to or hate it) supremely well done.


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## Pugg

^^^

Agree with DavidA about the Karajan.









Bit less bombastic, Peter Schreier on Philips.


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## Brahmsianhorn

I really believe this is the best all around version, better than Klemperer:










The Philips issue is out of print, but it looks like it has been reissued by Urania Records. This is the version available on itunes:










And if you don't mind very old sound quality and out-of-fashion performance style, this one moves me like no other. Not only a desert island choice for St Matt, but for all classical music recordings IMO, right up there with Furtwangler's Beethoven 9th, Casals' Bach Cello Suites, and Schnabel's Beethoven Piano Sonatas.


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## Mandryka

There's also Scherchen. Someone here in 2013 mentioned Furtwängler, which is rather moving I think from Am Abend da es kühle war ... to the end -- this extract was played at Furtwängler's funeral I think.


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## Grahamell

Oreb said:


> I have a very simple test for checking the quality of a recording of this timeless masterpiece.
> 
> Listen to the recitative no. 17 in Part I, the Last Supper.
> 
> If you are *not *reduced to a quivering heap, stunned by the majesty of what you have just heard, chills running up and down your back, tears in your eyes and a lump in your throat...
> 
> ... then the recording is trash.


Well I've failed the test completely. I can't identify the section that you mean.
On the only version I one, Harnoncourt from 2000, section seventeen is a Chorale - "Ich will hier bei dir stehen", and whilst lovely did not induce the sensations described. 
Can any one help?


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## Gambrinvs

Van Veldhoven version with Alex Potter really impressed me...


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## Marc

Here's a thread about more or less the same subject, and everyone is agreeing with each other. 

Favorite St. Matthew's Passion


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## starthrower

Helmut Muller-Bruhl/Cologne on Naxos

La Petite Bande/Gustav Leonhardt


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## DavidA

This one with only soloists for the singing. Stripped down but surprisingly effective


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## flamencosketches

starthrower said:


> La Petite Bande/Gustav Leonhardt


I think I'm going to get this. I have the Klemperer/Philharmonia, and I really like it, but it's an extreme account.


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## Rogerx

Gambrinvs said:


> Van Veldhoven version with Alex Potter really impressed me...


Please tell us more........


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## howlingfantods

Someone I think on these boards recommended the Solti version to me a few years ago. It's very good, I think maybe the best team of soloists on record--the women on the Klemperer are somewhat better but the Solti men are much, much better, and Solti himself is on his best behavior. The CSO orchestra and choir is as superb and precise as one would expect.

I think on margin I still slightly prefer the Klemperer because it's uniquely devastating and shattering. But on the other hand, the Solti is an easier one to live with and listen to frequently since it's still very affecting but without being quite so devastating.


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## wkasimer

howlingfantods said:


> Someone I think on these boards recommended the Solti version to me a few years ago.


That might have been me. I'm generally not a Solti fan, and before hearing this couldn't imagine him in any Baroque music, but if you want a large scale, modern instrument version, it's a good choice, as is the Jochum set, particularly if you can't tolerate Klemperer's tempi (or Schwarzkopf).


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## Allegro Con Brio

Being close to Passion Season, I have this supreme masterwork on hand to hear very soon. I'm planning on doing a pretty in-depth study of it this year, trying to hear it straight through without any breaks at least once, and comparing a handful of versions. So far, simply from browsing the TC threads, I've come up with this little list of essentials to hear that I'm not very familiar with:

Solti
Richter (I've seen praise for both of his versions, so not sure which one to try)
Herreweghe (same thing, don't know which one to hear. I've struggled with his approach in the past, but I'm going to try to open my mind to at least a couple HIP performances).
Suzuki
Mengelberg 

My current favorites are Klemperer, hideous person though that may make me; and Jochum. I've really liked what I've heard of Furtwangler and Bernstein, but they're both heavily cut. 

For those who prefer HIP: what's the best SMP to win over an old-school guy like me?


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## howlingfantods

wkasimer said:


> That might have been me. I'm generally not a Solti fan, and before hearing this couldn't imagine him in any Baroque music, but if you want a large scale, modern instrument version, it's a good choice, as is the Jochum set, particularly if you can't tolerate Klemperer's tempi (or Schwarzkopf).


I'm iffy on Solti--I like some of his recordings quite a lot but find some of them almost laughably wrong. And his often irrepressible desire to transform everything he conducts into an impromptu horn concerto can be grating.

This one is very good though, thanks for suggesting it--I wouldn't have considered it while browsing recordings without a recommendation. I do like Klemperer's tempi and find them very effective, but I also do like listening to Rolfe-Johnnson and Bar and Krause quite a lot more than listening to Fischer Dieskau and Berry and Gedda. Having a bass that can really do justice to Mache dich is a big selling point. I'm not as allergic to Schwarzkopf as you are but I don't mind swapping for Te Kanawa, and while I love Ludwig, von Otter is a perfectly fine substitute. At least it's not a countertenor doing those contralto arias.


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## premont

Allegro Con Brio said:


> For those who prefer HIP: what's the best SMP to win over an old-school guy like me?


Don't know. My faves are Herreweghe (his first recording), Harnoncourt (his first recording) and Jeffrey Thomas.


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## Rogerx

Favorite St. Matthew's Passion
Another topic , same subject.


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## flamencosketches

howlingfantods said:


> I'm iffy on Solti--I like some of his recordings quite a lot but find some of them almost laughably wrong. And his often irrepressible desire to transform everything he conducts into an impromptu horn concerto can be grating.


That's hilarious, do you know of any particularly guilty examples of Solti doing this? Please don't say the Matthew Passion, that would be a crime against religion.

Anyway, I only have the Klemperer, which I like. I think I am going to try and get the Leonhardt on DHM. I'm not a big Bach Passions guy. Hoping to change that starting Holy Week.


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## Allegro Con Brio

howlingfantods said:


> I'm iffy on Solti--I like some of his recordings quite a lot but find some of them almost laughably wrong. And his often irrepressible desire to transform everything he conducts into an impromptu horn concerto can be grating.


Isn't this mostly a matter of the in-your-face Decca recordings? I really do like the brilliant sound of his Ring cycle and Mahler symphonies, but it kind of seems like the engineers (and Solti) were going for an impressive, blow-your-hair-back brass sound rather than any sort of profound interpretation. The stellar soloists on his St. Matthew have piqued my interest, though; and his generally moderate tempi I would think would make it a safe bet. For me, there is a total lack of seriousness in HIP recordings of this work, but I'd be glad to be proven wrong. I hope the earlier Herreweghe can maybe convert me on this. Part of it just might be that I was "brought up" on the Klemperer, and thus whenever I hear "Mache dich, mein herze rein" performed any faster than his 10-minute rendition it seems terribly wrong and not nearly as moving. Call me diseased by the Old School, but if that's "wrong" I would gladly give up being right forever.


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## flamencosketches

Allegro Con Brio said:


> Isn't this mostly a matter of the in-your-face Decca recordings? I really do like the brilliant sound of his Ring cycle and Mahler symphonies, but it kind of seems like the engineers (and Solti) were going for an impressive, blow-your-hair-back brass sound rather than any sort of profound interpretation. The stellar soloists on his St. Matthew have piqued my interest, though; and his generally moderate tempi I would think would make it a safe bet. For me, there is a total lack of seriousness in HIP recordings of this work, but I'd be glad to be proven wrong. I hope the earlier Herreweghe can maybe convert me on this. Part of it just might be that I was "brought up" on the Klemperer, and thus whenever I hear "Mache dich, mein herze rein" performed any faster than his 10-minute rendition it seems terribly wrong and not nearly as moving. Call me diseased by the Old School, but if that's "wrong" I would gladly give up being right forever.


Try the Leonhardt. Nothing unserious about it.


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## howlingfantods

flamencosketches said:


> That's hilarious, do you know of any particularly guilty examples of Solti doing this? Please don't say the Matthew Passion, that would be a crime against religion.
> 
> Anyway, I only have the Klemperer, which I like. I think I am going to try and get the Leonhardt on DHM. I'm not a big Bach Passions guy. Hoping to change that starting Holy Week.


Solti's Aida recording comes to mind, but honestly a lot of his Wagner as well. Are the trumpet fanfares in the big crowd scenes really the biggest highlights in Lohengrin? because for Solti they clearly are.


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## Marc

Allegro Con Brio said:


> [...]
> 
> For those who prefer HIP: what's the best SMP to win over an old-school guy like me?


Maybe you should not start immediately with the recordings on period instruments, but begin with Corboz (Erato - if you can find it, I guess it's officially OOP), Rilling (his 2nd recording for Hänssler), Schreier (Philips/Universal), Ozawa (Philips/Universal) and Abbado (Musicom). These are all kinda 'mixed' performances, not HIP, but with HIP influences. It might help to appreciate the 'real' HIP ones if you listen to one or two of these first.

After that, I guess that the 2nd recording of Herreweghe might be a good pick for you. Ian Bostridge is the evangelist. He's not my cup of tea for this part, I find him 'over the top', but many 'conservative' (excusez le mot) Bach lovers seem to like his very emotional approach. And Herreweghe is not too fast, and not too slow either. Harnoncourt's 2nd studio recording is another possibility, also because he uses female singers for that particular one (au contraire his first studio recording), even in the arias. This might please you.

I admit that this is a guessing game for me though. From the first time I listened to Bach's vocal works (as an early teen), I have preferred the HIP performances by a mile (at least).


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## Rogerx

I am spinning this one at the moment, nothing short being a fine recording.


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## Marc

Allegro Con Brio said:


> [...] For me, there is a total lack of seriousness in HIP recordings of this work, but I'd be glad to be proven wrong. I hope the earlier Herreweghe can maybe convert me on this. Part of it just might be that I was "brought up" on the Klemperer, and thus whenever I hear "Mache dich, mein herze rein" performed any faster than his 10-minute rendition it seems terribly wrong and not nearly as moving. Call me diseased by the Old School, but if that's "wrong" I would gladly give up being right forever.


Sure. We all have our different preferences and taste. But when reading this, I doubt that my 'advices' in my former post are going to work for you. 

"Mache dich, mein Herze, rein" is, to me, one of the happiest arias of the entire piece. There is no sadness in it at all. Just read the lyrics. It's about someone who is extremely happy that his heart can now be pure, that Jesus has died for his/our sins, and that Jesus himself is able to enjoy his well deserved rest after his suffering. To me, it's almost a dance for someone who feels enormously relieved. And he wants to thank his Saviour for that by laying him to rest personally, in his very own, now pure, heart. When I listen to performances that last over 10 minutes, I either turn depressed or fall asleep.

Imho, it's all about trying to understand that death can be a redemption and a gateway to paradise. The same with, for instance, the final aria of the cantata BWV 82. "Ich freue mich auf meinem Tod"... "I'm looking forward to my death." Another aria that was played far too slow by the 'old school', well, to my taste and understanding it was.

Good Friday is a very important day for Christianity, but not just because of the tragic death of Jesus Christ, but because Christians believe that on that day, someone gave his life for to deliver them from their sins. Which is actually a thing to celebrate.
You can see it in many of the Lutheran cantata lyrics (not just those of Bach): the death of Christ is not a sad thing, it's a salvation. Good Friday is a combination of mourning, empathy, and, also, at the end, an immense relief when we realize that the suffering has ended. And, thanks to Easter on the next Sunday, we know it wasn't all for nothing. That's the day when even trumpets and timpani may enter in.


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## DavidA

Allegro Con Brio said:


> Isn't this mostly a matter of the in-your-face Decca recordings? I really do like the brilliant sound of his Ring cycle and Mahler symphonies, but it kind of seems like the engineers (and Solti) were going for an impressive, blow-your-hair-back brass sound rather than any sort of profound interpretation. The stellar soloists on his St. Matthew have piqued my interest, though; and his generally moderate tempi I would think would make it a safe bet. For me, there is a total lack of seriousness in HIP recordings of this work, but I'd be glad to be proven wrong. I hope the earlier Herreweghe can maybe convert me on this. Part of it just might be that I was "brought up" on the Klemperer, and thus whenever I hear "Mache dich, mein herze rein" performed any faster than his 10-minute rendition it seems terribly wrong and not nearly as moving. Call me diseased by the Old School, but if that's "wrong" I would gladly give up being right forever.


I'm afraid I just cannot take Klemperer in this work. It seems to confuse being serious with slowness. The whole thing drags interminably.


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## Sad Al

Rogerx said:


> I am spinning this one at the moment, nothing short being a fine recording.


I was just about to mention the Schreier version with Lucia Popp. I have a nice boxed set of Schreier's Bach including this and an excellent Xmas oratiorio.


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## Marc

Sad Al said:


> I was just about to mention the Schreier version with Lucia Popp. I have a nice boxed set of Schreier's Bach including this and an excellent Xmas oratiorio.


Yeah, I did mention him, too.
I think Schreier also made 2 recordings of the 'Hohe Messe' BWV 232. I have the first one (also with Popp), with a gripping Agnus Dei by Carolyn Watkinson. Too much vibrato maybe for my likings, but very moving.

This is how Watkinson sounds like in BWV 244 ("Buß und Reu" and "Können Tränen meiner Wangen"), conducted by Kurt Masur:


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## Allegro Con Brio

Marc said:


> Maybe you should not start immediately with the recordings on period instruments, but begin with Corboz (Erato - if you can find it, I guess it's officially OOP), Rilling (his 2nd recording for Hänssler), Schreier (Philips/Universal), Ozawa (Philips/Universal) and Abbado (Musicom). These are all kinda 'mixed' performances, not HIP, but with HIP influences. It might help to appreciate the 'real' HIP ones if you listen to one or two of these first.
> 
> After that, I guess that the 2nd recording of Herreweghe might be a good pick for you. Ian Bostridge is the evangelist. He's not my cup of tea for this part, I find him 'over the top', but many 'conservative' (excusez le mot) Bach lovers seem to like his very emotional approach. And Herreweghe is not too fast, and not too slow either. Harnoncourt's 2nd studio recording is another possibility, also because he uses female singers for that particular one (au contraire his first studio recording), even in the arias. This might please you.
> 
> I admit that this is a guessing game for me though. From the first time I listened to Bach's vocal works (as an early teen), I have preferred the HIP performances by a mile (at least).


Thanks! It's so funny how our experiences differ...that's about when I started listening to Bach too, and the first time I heard the SMP it was Herreweghe on YouTube. I thought it was dreadfully boring. I abandoned the work for a long time, then heard Klemperer. The emotional gut-punch was visceral, even though his massive forces can drown out the counterpoint. For me it's really hard to swallow listening to HIP performances that skip through the opening chorus like a jolly minuet and treat the chorales like they're just passing filler material, but the Schreier looks like a good bet. I think I'll try that one, the Solti, the 2nd Herreweghe, and the old Mengelberg throughout the next couple weeks just to get a deeper taste of the interpretive spectrum out there.


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## Marc

Allegro Con Brio said:


> Thanks! It's so funny how our experiences differ...that's about when I started listening to Bach too, and the first time I heard the SMP it was Herreweghe on YouTube. I thought it was dreadfully boring. I abandoned the work for a long time, then heard Klemperer. The emotional gut-punch was visceral, even though his massive forces can drown out the counterpoint. For me it's really hard to swallow listening to HIP performances that skip through the opening chorus like a jolly minuet and treat the chorales like they're just passing filler material, but the Schreier looks like a good bet. I think I'll try that one, the Solti, the 2nd Herreweghe, and the old Mengelberg throughout the next couple weeks just to get a deeper taste of the interpretive spectrum out there.


Sure. And if, after your research, you still find that Klemperer is the most satisfying, then that's just fine. Don't let your personal Lent & Passion feeling be taken away by severe disciples of the HIP movement.

But I do want to assure you that the HIPsters take Bach in general, and this work in particular, mighty serious, even with faster tempi. If you listen carefully how the lyrics and words are expressed in f.i. the Leonhardt and Harnoncourt cantatas and passions, then you might get an idea. The same goes for the earlier recordings of Herreweghe. The basics of their approach can be found in Harnoncourt's book _Baroque music today: music as speech_, of which Matthew Westphal wrote the following insightful review:

_Love him or hate him, call him a pioneering genius or dusty and mannered, Nikolaus Harnoncourt deserves a lot of credit. Not only did he lead the period-instrument movement into its first major successes (both artistic and commercial) but his ideas about how to play Baroque- and Classical-era music (and why to play it that way) have had enormous influence even on conventional symphony orchestras and their conductors. This volume is a collection of essays and lectures Harnoncourt has given over the years laying out those very ideas. The title, Baroque Music Today, is something of a misnomer at this point: the latest essay in the book dates from 1980, and the second essay, "The Interpretation of Historical Music," is effectively the founding mission statement (from 1954) of Harnoncourt's period-instrument orchestra, the Concentus Musicus of Vienna. While the occasional observation seems dated or debatable, and certain points are repeated from chapter to chapter (the chapters were originally separate lectures), most of what Harnoncourt has to say remains both instructive and persuasive.
The second half of the book contains interesting discussions of particular Baroque-era instruments, national styles (French, Italian, German, English), and composers (Bach, Mozart). Harnoncourt manages to cover many technical details without ever moving beyond the ken of an interested layperson. The real heart of the book, however, is the first half, in which the author convincingly lays out the numerous misconceptions under which Baroque- and Classical-era music was generally played in the mid-20th-century ("The prevailing misconception that notational symbols and indications of affect, tempo and dynamics have always meant what they do today is disastrous"); how these misconceptions first took hold ("After the French Revolution, music got an ideological aspect--specifically, it was meant to be egalitarian. The idea of rhetoric disappeared; verbal elements were replaced with pictorial. That's how the sostenuto, the long sweeping legato melodic line, came into common use"); and the aesthetic approach he feels is crucial to performing--and hearing--Baroque music ("I like to say that music prior to 1800 speaks, while subsequent music paints. The former must be understood, since anything which is spoken presupposes understanding, while the latter ... should be felt"). Whether you agree or disagree with the premises of the historically informed performance movement (or just want to know what those premises are), you'll find them stated clearly and eloquently here._

https://www.amazon.com/Baroque-Music-Today-Speech-Understanding/dp/0931340918


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## Bulldog

Allegro Con Brio said:


> Thanks! It's so funny how our experiences differ...that's about when I started listening to Bach too, and the first time I heard the SMP it was Herreweghe on YouTube. I thought it was dreadfully boring. I abandoned the work for a long time, then heard Klemperer. The emotional gut-punch was visceral, even though his massive forces can drown out the counterpoint. For me it's really hard to swallow listening to HIP performances that skip through the opening chorus like a jolly minuet and treat the chorales like they're just passing filler material, but the Schreier looks like a good bet.


I came to the St. Matthew Passion from Herreweghe's first version and a few other period instrument recordings. The Klemperer is a fine performance but ever so slow. For me, it's more a pleasant curiosity than anything else. For what it's worth, the opening chorus of Herreweghe's 1st recording impacts me more than any other version; it's the opposite of "jolly".


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## Marc

Bulldog said:


> I came to the St. Matthew Passion from Herreweghe's first version and a few other period instrument recordings. The Klemperer is a fine performance but ever so slow. For me, it's more a pleasant curiosity than anything else. For what it's worth, the opening chorus of Herreweghe's 1st recording impacts me more than any other version; it's the opposite of "jolly".


I agree. It's a great performance indeed. In those years, when I was a kid, there was a lot of Leonardt/Harnoncourt/Herreweghe on the Dutch radio and sometimes on the television, too. I love(d) them all immensely.
But I do know that there are still people who, after listening to it, will ask: what? is this a jolly Viennese waltz or something?
They want it to be slow and heavy, otherwise it can't be severe/serious/religious enough. I've heard that (too) many times already.
So, they should stick to Klemperer then. It's still a classic recording, recommended and loved by many. But it's not 'my' Bach at all, and also not my idea of 'religious' or 'spiritual' at all.

Here's Herreweghe I (recorded in 1984), in rather 'baggy' YouTube sound, but... it might give the curious an idea.


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## DavidA

Bulldog said:


> I came to the St. Matthew Passion from Herreweghe's first version and a few other period instrument recordings. The Klemperer is a fine performance but ever so slow. For me, it's more a pleasant curiosity than anything else. For what it's worth, the opening chorus of Herreweghe's 1st recording impacts me more than any other version; it's the opposite of "jolly".


We must remember that the opening movement is a sarabande - a dance. That doesn't mean it should be 'jolly' but it should dance. The chorus urging us to share their mourning - it is urgent as well as lamentable.


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## Bulldog

Marc said:


> I agree. It's a great performance indeed. In those years, when I was a kid, there was a lot of Leonardt/Harnoncourt/Herreweghe on the Dutch radio and sometimes on the television, too. I love(d) them all immensely.
> But I do know that there are still people who, after listening to it, will ask: what? is this a jolly Viennese waltz or something?
> They want it to be slow and heavy, otherwise it can't be severe/serious/religious enough. I've heard that (too) many times already.


So true. Sometimes, a slower tempo carries no advantages with it.


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## MaxKellerman

This discussion regarding tempo has been had so many times, including this thread.

I was put off Klemperer for many years because of negative comments regarding it's lugubrious pace. Once I actually put aside preconceived notions on how the music should sound and just immersed myself in Klemperer's recording, I heard a moving interpretation of great strength and power.


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## Manxfeeder

MaxKellerman said:


> I was put off Klemperer for many years because of negative comments regarding it's lugubrious pace. Once I actually put aside preconceived notions on how the music should sound and just immersed myself in Klemperer's recording, I heard a moving interpretation of great strength and power.


Exactly! It's not for everyday listening but there are times when it's just right. At least in my listening room.


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## Bulldog

MaxKellerman said:


> This discussion regarding tempo has been had so many times, including this thread.
> 
> I was put off Klemperer for many years because of negative comments regarding it's lugubrious pace. Once I actually put aside preconceived notions on how the music should sound and just immersed myself in Klemperer's recording, I heard a moving interpretation of great strength and power.


Yes, but it could have had strength and power at a faster tempo.


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## MaxKellerman

Bulldog said:


> Yes, but it could have had strength and power at a faster tempo.


It could. And Klemperer's recording isn't the only one I enjoy. Tempo isn't the determining factor on the quality of the performance.


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## Marc

MaxKellerman said:


> It could. And Klemperer's recording isn't the only one I enjoy. Tempo isn't the determining factor on the quality of the performance.


That's true.
But to me, Klemperer lacks rhythm, and expression. Just my taste of course.

And there's slow and extremely slow... 

Leonhardt's BWV 244 is plenty of slow enough for me. And I hear it as very expressive and emotive. It speaks to me.
The same with Kuijken's first recording of BWV 245 (which is not the more recent OVPP recording).


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## wkasimer

Marc said:


> Maybe you should not start immediately with the recordings on period instruments, but begin with Corboz (Erato - if you can find it, I guess it's officially OOP), Rilling (his 2nd recording for Hänssler), Schreier (Philips/Universal), Ozawa (Philips/Universal) and Abbado (Musicom). These are all kinda 'mixed' performances, not HIP, but with HIP influences. It might help to appreciate the 'real' HIP ones if you listen to one or two of these first.


These are all excellent choices; unfortunately, the only ones that are likely findable at a reasonable price are Rilling's and Schreier's. Fortunately, I think that the Rilling is probably the best of these choices. I slightly prefer Corboz' group of soloists (particularly Equiluz's Evangelist), but I find his conducting less persuasive.


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## Allegro Con Brio

DavidA said:


> We must remember that the opening movement is a sarabande - a dance. That doesn't mean it should be 'jolly' but it should dance. The chorus urging us to share their mourning - it is urgent as well as lamentable.


That's one interpretation of it, and a perfectly valid one. For me the incessant dotted-note rhythm of the opening chorus represents the agonizing trudge of Christ up to Golgotha, weighted down with unbearable suffering. We start "in mediās rēs," with the opening scene painting a terrifying convincing portrait of the anguish that is to come for the Savior, and the chorus mournfully inviting us into the drama. We then go back to the preceding events to explain what led up to it. But I totally respect the preferences of those who like it swifter, as long as nobody is claiming that it is the universally "correct" way to do it, which is the holier-than-thou attitude I sometimes detect in the HIP movement. Also, remember that a "dance" in Bach's time was not necessarily what we would think of it as today. Would we dance to the sarabande of the E Minor Keyboard Partita? This is one of my favorite Bach pieces BTW:





The old-school/HIP debate will always rage on and have its dedicated proponents on either side, but here's a really interesting video from a more "old-school" perspective. Though there are some faults in the argument, I thought it pretty fascinating. Also how he points out that a sarabande is meant to be a slow, stately dance with the emphasis on a different beat than what some HIPers treat it as, more like a minuet. I will admit that in, say Klemperer, the beat just tends to trudge forward at times but I think that is a fair and valid interpretation of the work just as it is fair to play it more "urgently."





Re: Herreweghe, which one do you think is better? Maybe someone would be so kind as to give me a quick rundown on the interpretive differences between the two? Pretty sure only the 2nd one shows up on streaming services.


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## Bulldog

Allegro Con Brio said:


> Re: Herreweghe, which one do you think is better? Maybe someone would be so kind as to give me a quick rundown on the interpretive differences between the two? Pretty sure only the 2nd one shows up on streaming services.


I prefer his first recording. The "agonizing trudge" you mentioned isn't as agonizing in Herreweghe's second effort.


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## Marc

The 1st is more HIP in my humble opinion, interpretation-wise it's very close to the 'music as speech' hypothesis. The 2nd is more slick and also slightly faster. Most people seem to prefer the 2nd, that's why I kinda 'adviced' it earlier on. 
I'm with Bulldog though. I find the 1st more impressive. I fear though that your stomach might turn when you hear the enclosing chorale of the 1st part ("O Mensch, bewein…"). It's very fast in that 1st recording. The 2nd recording has got a better countertenor (Andreas Scholl). René Jacobs (singing in the 1st) was past his prime IMHO. I.c. the biggest part, the evangelist: I like Bostridge in Schubert or Britten or whatever, but I felt he was miscast for this part. He's the evangelist in the 2nd recording. Howard Crook, evangelist in the 1st one, is really much better. He's the involved story teller, whilst Bostridge is in a continuous "I'm so [censored] angry that this is all happening" mood.


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## DavidA

Allegro Con Brio said:


> That's one interpretation of it, and a perfectly valid one. For me the incessant dotted-note rhythm of the opening chorus represents the agonizing trudge of Christ up to Golgotha, weighted down with unbearable suffering. We start "in mediās rēs," with the opening scene painting a terrifying convincing portrait of the anguish that is to come for the Savior, and the chorus mournfully inviting us into the drama. We then go back to the preceding events to explain what led up to it. But I totally respect the preferences of those who like it swifter, as long as nobody is claiming that it is the universally "correct" way to do it, which is the holier-than-thou attitude I sometimes detect in the HIP movement. Also, remember that a "dance" in Bach's time was not necessarily what we would think of it as today. Would we dance to the sarabande of the E Minor Keyboard Partita? This is one of my favorite Bach pieces BTW:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The old-school/HIP debate will always rage on and have its dedicated proponents on either side, but here's a really interesting video from a more "old-school" perspective. Though there are some faults in the argument, I thought it pretty fascinating. Also how he points out that a sarabande is meant to be a slow, stately dance with the emphasis on a different beat than what some HIPers treat it as, more like a minuet. I will admit that in, say Klemperer, the beat just tends to trudge forward at times but I think that is a fair and valid interpretation of the work just as it is fair to play it more "urgently."
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Re: Herreweghe, which one do you think is better? Maybe someone would be so kind as to give me a quick rundown on the interpretive differences between the two? Pretty sure only the 2nd one shows up on streaming services.


Boy this guy uses a lot of words saying nothing! :lol:

The problem is he has no argument. He's just saying what he prefers. There is no problem with that but he takes about 15 minutes to say what could be said in 2 minutes.


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## wkasimer

Marc said:


> The 2nd recording has got a better countertenor (Andreas Scholl). René Jacobs (singing in the 1st) was past his prime IMHO.


That's what I thought when I first heard Herreweghe 2 when it was first issued. But the other day I listened to both recordings, and much to my surprise, I preferred Jacobs. No question that Scholl has the better voice and technique - but to my ears, Jacobs' singing has more depth of feeling.



> I.c. the biggest part, the evangelist: I like Bostridge in Schubert or Britten or whatever, but I felt he was miscast for this part. He's the evangelist in the 2nd recording. Howard Crook, evangelist in the 1st one, is really much better. He's the involved story teller, whilst Bostridge is in a continuous "I'm so [censored] angry that this is all happening" mood.


I largely agree, except that I don't much like Bostridge in anything else, either. But Werner Güra, who sings the solos on Herreweghe 2, is absolutely fantastic.


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## Marc

wkasimer said:


> That's what I thought when I first heard Herreweghe 2 when it was first issued. But the other day I listened to both recordings, and much to my surprise, I preferred Jacobs. No question that Scholl has the better voice and technique - but to my ears, Jacobs' singing has more depth of feeling.


Point taken. But, during the 1980s, Jacobs 'developed' a sharp edge to his voice in the upper regions, which is already audible here. There are a few cantata recordings (Leonhardt) of the 1970s, where he is (IMHO) absolutely gorgeous, well... his voice is. 



wkasimer said:


> I largely agree, except that I don't much like Bostridge in anything else, either. But Werner Güra, who sings the solos on Herreweghe 2, is absolutely fantastic.


A bit vice versa compared to the countertenors actually: Blochwitz (on Herreweghe 1) for the beauty of voice, Güra (Herreweghe 2) for the expression.
Both recordings have loads of merits. But, as a whole, I find Herreweghe 1 more convincing, less slick and more significant.


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## DavidA

Gura is the evangelist on the Jacobs and is terrific as a story teller. The only problem with that is that they were experimenting with a rather controversial way of setting the soloist in the choirs out. Hence the recording tends to recede at some places. Typical of Jacobs which gives us plenty to think about together with some controversial points. I’ve never heard the opening chorus done better


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## Marc

FYI: I just sent Krummhorn a PM to ask if it's possible to merge this thread with:

Favorite St. Matthew's Passion


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## Allegro Con Brio

So, throughout the last couple weeks I've been doing some fairly deep St. Matthew listening. All of yesterday and this morning I spent almost entirely with the work. Besides being profoundly moved as usual by the poetry, sensitivity, expression, intellect, and just plain brilliance of Bach's composition; I have some notes to share from the eight performances that I sampled during this binge - five HIP (or at least HIP-style) and four more "old-school" renditions. I took several of the suggestions recommended to me above (Thanks, Marc, for your excellent HIP recommendations!), as well as others which I was already familiar with and which I had heard good things about, and focused on the interpretive differences. My evaluations probably aren't entirely fair considering I didn't listen to all of any of the performances (it _is_ a huge work, after all) but regardless, here are my thoughts...

*HIPster Haven*
- Leonhardt: This is the first one I tried considering it had gleaned some pretty consistent praise throughout this thread and others. The opening chorus does unfold at a good pace appropriate to the subject matter (I'm not one to say that it has to be performed "religiously" or "piously," but I do think the music should work in coordination with what is being sung) and I thought the mood and pacing throughout was consistently appropriate - certainly a masterclass in communicating the necessary gravitas through HIP. However, it never seems like the choir gives it their all. Everything seems strangely underpowered and perhaps "prettefied." Another way to say it - it lacks conviction. I want power and drama in my singing, not pleasant serenading. The soloists were also nothing to write home about. Shame because I really liked how Leonhardt integrates the work.

- Schreier: This is very similar, interpretation-wise to Leonhardt but there is a bit more conviction in the singing even though it still sounds underpowered to me. For me the selling point here were the soloists; maybe the greatest team of the eight I heard. They bring every aria to life in vivid colors. A solid recommendation.

- Suzuki 2019: Suzuki is by far my favorite HIP Bach interpreter. I find that his performances, despite their reduced forces, always convey a sort of prayerful intimacy that I find captivating. However, I found this live performance quite cold. It certainly starts out on a great note, with a chorus that moves along at a perfect pace and choral singing that is full of body and projection. But Suzuki really doesn't adjust the overall conception according to the mood portrayed - all the arias sound roughly alike, and the soloists sound formal and disengaged. I was really expecting to like this one, but with some exceptions all I heard were a bunch of musicians going through the motions.

- Herreweghe 1999: Unfortunately the first Herreweghe which most people seem to prefer is unavailable on streaming and YouTube alike having been removed from the catalogue, so I settled for the later version. Herreweghe's tempi are perhaps the quickest of the bunch. When I said earlier that HIP performances can make the opening chorus sound like a jolly minuet, this is exactly what I mean. It skips and frolics along in a carefree manner, and when the choir enters there is lots of drama but little sensitivity. "Slick" is precisely the word that came to mind as things proceeded. I do like Andreas Scholl in the alto arias (especially _Erbarme dich_) but the senseless tempi really ruined it for me. I do gather that the earlier one has more depth, so perhaps I'm being unfair on Herreweghe.

- Harnoncourt 2000: And saving the best of the HIPsters for last...this is one that I was already familiar with and that I was eager to revisit with fresh ears. And what a fulfilling revisit it was! Harnoncourt's pacing is brisk but he manages to infuse the music with the drama, warmth, and gravitas that it needs in perfect proportion. The orchestra and choir don't sound anemic like many seem to; rather it's big, bold, and gripping with excellent recorded sound. Harnoncourt pays attention to the little things and it really pays off. The soloists deliver crisp and engaging performances. Of course there is the fact that Harnoncourt, like most HIPsters, trivializes the chorales, but at least he gets gloriously phrased and polished full-bodied singing. This, for me, is the textbook example of how to make quicker tempi in the St. Matthew sound musical.

*The Old School*
- Klemperer: Oh, Otto. You were so spoiled for this recording. You were given the finest cast of soloists on record and a choir that sings like every note is their last. But, for goodness' sake, can't we have a little _elasticity_???????? This is just like what Suzuki does, except on the totally opposite spectrum. He conducts everything at a trudging, dreary tempo that works brilliantly in some movements, and in others just saps the life out of it. In all honesty, I was "brought up" on this performance but it really started to get on my nerves this time. The opening chorus is overwhelming in its might, Ludwig and Schwarzkopf deliver definitive versions of their arias (Ludwig in particular is just amazing, though I found Pears somewhat grating as the evangelist and I'm not a DFD fan), Klemperer doesn't sell the music short on its emotions - but he simply lacks the flexibility necessary to maintain interest. "O Mensch" and "Mache dich" in particular, start off interesting but then just become exasperating, and the big choruses lose contrapuntal detail, being bogged down in the enormity and strain of it all. I am no longer a major fan of this one...

- Richter 1958: Generally I'm no big fan of Richter's Bach conducting, mainly due to the fact that his choir always sounds like they're shouting at the top of their lungs for some reason (though his B Minor Mass is solid). Though he is not as stodgy as Klemperer, Richter's conception seems overly formal and pietistic. All the chorales sound the exact same - at least Herreweghe, Harnoncourt, Jochum, and several others inflect each one differently and change the volume to communicate the intent, but here's it's just all the same. One thing I do like is the use of the organ as the continuo rather than the jangly harpsichord. IMO this is definitely not the pinnacle of old-school performances like many seem to think. The solo team is pretty good, especially Haefliger and Seefried.

- Jochum: Now we're talking! Previously, this was my favorite St. Matthew for its refusal to compromise the gravitas and expression of the music, while maintaining cohesive flow and interest. And my opinion hasn't changed in the least. It remains my favorite of them all. Jochum moves forward with drama in the vein of the best HIP performances but doesn't bog everything down like a tortoise stuck in a pool of molasses like Klemperer, or sound as bland and homogeneous as Richter. The chorus movements are simply perfect, and though the soloists aren't flashy they get the job done. A brilliant effort all-around.

- Mengelberg: Finally we come to the most unusual of them all. First thing to know - this was from 1939 and therefore the sound quality is very dim. Also, like most pre-stereo performances, Mengelberg applies his almighty pruning knife and slices big chunks out of the work (why does he cut out so many beautiful arias, but leave the recitatives?) This is Bach from a totally different era. Those raised on HIP may have a heart attack and keel over after hearing 20 seconds of any of the arias. Seriously. This is idiosyncrasy on steroids. Mengelberg applies heavy rubato, messes around with the flow of things, and somehow gets the singers to go along with his vision. Sometimes it's _really_ annoying and spastic. But guess what? I think it works. This brings you back to a day where everything was at the mercy of the conductor's whim, and he was not afraid to imprint the music with an intensely personal vision. The musicality is astounding - how he gets the chorus to subtly inflect certain words to communicate the ideas, and how he controls the tempi to create an ebb and flow that makes it seem like the music is being made up on the spot. Follow along with the translated text and you'll be amazed at how, for example, in the chorales, the choir sings as if it is actually speaking. It must be heard to be believed. Is it a version that I'll return to frequently? Heck no! Is it perverse compared to the "proper" HIP way? Heck yes! Is it overly operatic? For sure. Is it immensely convincing and musical, a monumental event that remains overwhelming in its poignancy, even today? You betcha!

So there you have it. Comments, questions, challenges, etc. welcome


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## Brahmsianhorn

^

Good reviews, Allegro! 

Mengelberg and Jochum are my benchmarks, and I agree wholeheartedly that Klemp lacks elasticity. I’ll need to hear the Harnoncourt. Also, don’t forget there’s a wonderful Furtwängler although heavily cut.


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## Ulfilas

Thoughts on McCreesh? I've kept it on my shelves. 

My main recommendation would be between Herreweghe 2, Harnoncourt 2, and Jacobs.


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## Allegro Con Brio

Brahmsianhorn said:


> ^
> 
> Good reviews, Allegro!
> 
> Mengelberg and Jochum are my benchmarks, and I agree wholeheartedly that Klemp lacks elasticity. I'll need to hear the Harnoncourt. Also, don't forget there's a wonderful Furtwängler although heavily cut.


Ah, yes! I knew about that one but didn't have time for it. I'll make sure to give it a listen after I take a break from the work for a while. Another favorite of mine that I forgot to mention is the Bernstein. It probably would have been my favorite modern-instrument version if not for the fact that it was a concert designed as an "introduction to classical music" for newbies and therefore he makes heavy cuts. Aargh, that annoys me (even though, in all honesty, I could comfortably do without most of the "und Jesu sprach..." recitatives).


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## Marc

Allegro Con Brio said:


> Ah, yes! I knew about that one but didn't have time for it. I'll make sure to give it a listen after I take a break from the work for a while. Another favorite of mine that I forgot to mention is the Bernstein. It probably would have been my favorite modern-instrument version if not for the fact that it was a concert designed as an "introduction to classical music" for newbies and therefore he makes heavy cuts. Aargh, that annoys me (even though, in all honesty, I could comfortably do without most of the "und Jesu sprach..." recitatives).


Funny you say that, about the recitatives. Mainly because I feel the exact opposite (oops, apologies. )

Compared to most of his contemporaries, I find Bach's composing of recitatives very expressive and worthwhile. In fact, in his passions, I consider the part of the Evangelist as the most important one. Imho, singers/speakers/storytellers  like Kurt Equiluz, Christoph Prégardien and Peter Schreier were/are, with their interpretations, very good in making a solid statement for that. They really gave me the "music as speech" feeling that I find so attractive in Bach's almost sermon-like composing of sacred works.


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## wkasimer

Here's a gift for all of you, a recording of the St. Matthew Passion conducted by Hans Swarowsky. Recorded in 1967 and originally issued in the US on Nonesuch LP's, it's never found its way to a commercial CD.

The link to download:

https://1fichier.com/?hsx42eknbc

Here are the details. For my ears, there has never been an Evangelist in the same league with Kurt Equiluz, and this is, I think, the best of his four recordings. And as a bonus, he sings the tenor arias, too. The other soloists are excellent.

Hans Swarowsky, conductor 
Vienna Academy Chamber Choir 
Vienna Choir 
Vienna State Symphony Orchestra

Kurt Equiluz, tenor (Evangelist and arias) 
Marius Rintzler, bass (Jesus) 
Heather Harper, soprano 
Gertrude Jahn, contralto 
Jakob Stämpfli, bass

Hellmut Reisberger, Gerhard Perz, flute 
Elisabeth Schäftlein, Hans Maria Kneihs, recorder 
Alfred Dutka, oboe 
Ernst Krall, Alfred Hertel, oboe da caccia 
Manfred Geyrhalter, violin 
Ulli Kneuer, viola da gamba 
Johann Sonnenleitner, harpsichord 
Herbert Tachezi, organ


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## DavidA

Ulfilas said:


> *Thoughts on McCreesh?* I've kept it on my shelves.
> 
> My main recommendation would be between Herreweghe 2, Harnoncourt 2, and Jacobs.


Absolutely terrific! I listened to it over Easter. Be prepared for some (very) rapid tempi in places and also the OVPP but the soloists are superb and the whole thing comes off marvellously. Not the only way but it is excellent in its own terms.


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## wkasimer

Ulfilas said:


> Thoughts on McCreesh? I've kept it on my shelves.


I think that you should listen to it :devil:. I believe that it was the first OVPP recording (there have been a couple since, by Butt and Kuijken), and excellent if that's what you want. The voices are fine, fortunately - I can't imagine sitting through an OVPP St. Matthew if they weren't. No countertenors, fortunately.



> My main recommendation would be between Herreweghe 2, Harnoncourt 2, and Jacobs.


I agree about Harnoncourt 2, but prefer Herreweghe 1; I think that the earlier recording has more interpretive depth and better soloists, but I'm not a fan of Ian Bostridge. Much as I like the Jacobs, it really requires a surround sound setup due to the way the performers have been situated. I have a broadcast from around the same time with the same forces that has a better recorded balance for my two-channel system.


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## Marc

wkasimer said:


> Here's a gift for all of you, a recording of the St. Matthew Passion conducted by Hans Swarowsky. Recorded in 1967 and originally issued in the US on Nonesuch LP's, it's never found its way to a commercial CD.
> 
> The link to download:
> 
> https://1fichier.com/?hsx42eknbc
> 
> Here are the details. For my ears, there has never been an Evangelist in the same league with Kurt Equiluz, and this is, I think, the best of his three recordings. And as a bonus, he sings the tenor arias, too. The other soloists are excellent.
> 
> Hans Swarowsky, conductor
> Vienna Academy Chamber Choir
> Vienna Choir
> Vienna State Symphony Orchestra
> 
> Kurt Equiluz, tenor (Evangelist and arias)
> Marius Rintzler, bass (Jesus)
> Heather Harper, soprano
> Gertrude Jahn, contralto
> Jakob Stämpfli, bass
> 
> Hellmut Reisberger, Gerhard Perz, flute
> Elisabeth Schäftlein, Hans Maria Kneihs, recorder
> Alfred Dutka, oboe
> Ernst Krall, Alfred Hertel, oboe da caccia
> Manfred Geyrhalter, violin
> Ulli Kneuer, viola da gamba
> Johann Sonnenleitner, harpsichord
> Herbert Tachezi, organ


I've been so lucky to have heard Equiluz live in Bach's Passions and Weihnachts-Oratorium, during the period 1986-1988. He was a true live performer... really giving me goosebumps on a frequent basis. He even could make a simple phrase like "Er sprach…" (before "Gehet hin in die Stadt zu einem und sprecht zu ihm") sound like the utter uttering  of empathy.

EDIT: I will never forget that a young lady left the church, weeping and crying almost aloud, after Equiluz had sung (Johannes-Passion) "[…] Und er trug sein Kreuz und ging hinaus zur Stätte, die da heißet Schädelstätt, welche heißet auf Ebräisch: *Go-hol-gata-haa*."
Maybe she was just another much too fanatic Jesus-freak, but, well, since I was suffering from goosebumps at that moment, too, I could understand her at least a little.


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## Marc

Ulfilas said:


> Thoughts on McCreesh? I've kept it on my shelves.
> 
> […]


Many people have raved about it.
I find it, I'm sorry to say, spectacular yet slick. It left me remarkably unmoved. And, imho, the voices do not really blend well in the choral parts. For OVPP, I prefer both Kuijken and Butt in this piece.


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## Allegro Con Brio

Marc said:


> Funny you say that, about the recitatives. Mainly because I feel the exact opposite (oops, apologies. )
> 
> Compared to most of his contemporaries, I find Bach's composing of recitatives very expressive and worthwhile. In fact, in his passions, I consider the part of the Evangelist as the most important one. Imho, singers/speakers/storytellers  like Kurt Equiluz, Christoph Prégardien and Peter Schreier were/are, with their interpretations, very good in making a solid statement for that. They really gave me the "music as speech" feeling that I find so attractive in Bach's almost sermon-like composing of sacred works.


In the St. John Passion I have no problem sitting through the whole thing - it's just such a grippingly dramatic work; every recitative is composed a little differently. In the St. Matthew it just starts to drag, and the arias are something I start to look forward to.


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## DavidA

Allegro Con Brio said:


> In the St. John Passion I have no problem sitting through the whole thing - it's just such a grippingly dramatic work; every recitative is composed a little differently. In the St. Matthew it just starts to drag, and the arias are something I start to look forward to.


One reason the St Matthew drags is because conductors take it far too slowly. For me Klemperer's starts dragging halfway through the opening chorus!


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## Allegro Con Brio

DavidA said:


> One reason the St Matthew drags is because conductors take it far too slowly. For me Klemperer's starts dragging halfway through the opening chorus!


I honestly have no idea what Otto was thinking with that recording. There are parts of it where I find his tempo convincing (it was the recording I was "raised on") but for the most part it's just an absolute snooze-fest. I wanted to listen through the whole thing, but had to stop it once Part II started because I was getting so annoyed!


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## wkasimer

Allegro Con Brio said:


> I honestly have no idea what Otto was thinking with that recording.


If it weren't for Christa Ludwig's singing of the alto solos, I'd have dumped this recording long ago.


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## DavidA

Allegro Con Brio said:


> I honestly have no idea what Otto was thinking with that recording. There are parts of it where I find his tempo convincing (it was the recording I was "raised on") but for the most part it's just an absolute snooze-fest. I wanted to listen through the whole thing, but had to stop it once Part II started because I was getting so annoyed!


In all fairness Klemperer is just an extreme of how people used to do it in the name of reverence. Of course it would be completely impossible for Bach to have done it that way with the limited number of singers he had available. I'm all for choral societies doing it but at tempi which don't take up the whole day. My wife took part in a performance the other year which was a mixture of OVPP and choir and it was remarkably effective.


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## DavidA

Marc said:


> I've been so lucky to have heard Equiluz live in Bach's Passions and Weihnachts-Oratorium, during the period 1986-1988. He was a true live performer... really giving me goosebumps on a frequent basis. He even could make a simple phrase like "Er sprach…" (before "Gehet hin in die Stadt zu einem und sprecht zu ihm") sound like the utter uttering  of empathy.
> 
> EDIT: I will never forget that a young lady left the church, weeping and crying almost aloud, after Equiluz had sung (Johannes-Passion) "[…] Und er trug sein Kreuz und ging hinaus zur Stätte, die da heißet Schädelstätt, welche heißet auf Ebräisch: *Go-hol-gata-haa*."
> *Maybe she was just another much too fanatic Jesus-freak, but, well, since I was suffering from goosebumps at that moment, too, I could understand her at least a little.*




No2 whatever we do, we mustn't mix religion with emotion, must we? Stiff upper lip everyone!


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## Marc

DavidA said:


> [/B]
> 
> No2 whatever we do, we mustn't mix religion with emotion, must we? Stiff upper lip everyone!


Indeed. I'm all for stiff upper lip, from birth to death. It should be ordered by law. :lol:


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## DavidA

Marc said:


> Indeed. I'm all for stiff upper lip, from birth to death. It should be ordered by law. :lol:


One of the problems is of course our western culture has tuned down the immense emotion we find in the gospels. Weekend if we're not careful to see it through the lens of British public schoolboys who sing polite hymns


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## perdido34

The SACD of this piece with the Netherlands Bach Society is outstanding.


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## Marc

DavidA said:


> One of the problems is of course our western culture has tuned down the immense emotion we find in the gospels. Weekend if we're not careful to see it through the lens of British public schoolboys who sing polite hymns


I admit that I was mocking her a bit though.
Maybe I've met too many 'Jesus-freaks' in my life.  
I have no doubt that her emotions were entirely genuine.

For the rest: personally, I'm mostly more touched by a certain distance in 'emotional' art... that somehow seems to work better. In fact, the part of the Evangelist in the passions is a good example of that: to me, Ian Bostridge is way too emotional and even hysterical, whilst Equiluz and Prégardien find the perfect mixture of the (more or less) both distanced and empathizing storyteller. They never exaggerate the emotions, which, to me, makes their performance even more impressive and emotional.


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## DavidA

Marc said:


> I admit that I was mocking her a bit though.
> Maybe I've met too many 'Jesus-freaks' in my life.
> I have no doubt that her emotions were entirely genuine.
> 
> For the rest: personally, I'm mostly more touched by a certain distance in 'emotional' art... that somehow seems to work better. In fact, the part of the Evangelist in the passions is a good example of that: to me, Ian Bostridge is way too emotional and even hysterical, whilst Equiluz and Prégardien find the perfect mixture of the (more or less) both distanced and empathizing storyteller. They never exaggerate the emotions, which, to me, makes their performance even more impressive and emotional.


Of course even an atheist like Jonathan Miller confessed how he was moved to tears by the St Matthew. The problem is that we have been afraid of emotion because we might betray ourselves and the gospels are absolutely crammed full of emotion. It always amuses me the way people can shout and roll their heads off at football matches were 22 men are kicking a bag of wind around and then emotion in such a heart matter as religion is frowned upon. Just shows where our priorities lie


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## Marc

DavidA said:


> Of course even an atheist like Jonathan Miller confessed how he was moved to tears by the St Matthew. The problem is that we have been afraid of emotion because we might betray ourselves and the gospels are absolutely crammed full of emotion. It always amuses me the way people can shout and roll their heads off at football matches were 22 men are kicking a bag of wind around and then emotion in such a heart matter as religion is frowned upon. Just shows where our priorities lie


It's not just with religion.
Go to any classical music concert (also the secular ones) and compare the audience's reactions to the reactions during a pop music concert.

An interesting topic no doubt... but I fear it might distract us a bit too much from the original idea of this particular thread.


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## DavidA

Marc said:


> It's not just with religion.
> Go to any classical music concert (also the secular ones) and compare the audience's reactions to the reactions during a pop music concert.
> 
> An interesting topic no doubt... but I fear it might distract us a bit too much from the original idea of this particular thread.


Yes but we are realising that Bach's passions are crammed full of emotion and drama. One problem the soporific recordings of them have deadened it.


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## Marc

DavidA said:


> Yes but we are realising that Bach's passions are crammed full of emotion and drama. One problem the soporific recordings of them have deadened it.


I guess I'm lucky then that I don't know many soporific recordings. Most of them fill me with emotion.


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## PSchiefelbein

I posted on a related thread, but I grew up with Mogen Woldike’s 1959 recording on Vanguard. I still regard it as a perfect halfway point between old school and HIP approaches. The music has a rhythmic flow without sounding like an unintended race to the finish. The orchestral forces are small but world-class, the soloists are excellent and feel completely engaged with their texts, and, yes, the closing sections have brought me to tears. The choruses on the 1998 remastering sound congested, but the smaller scale pieces are perfectly listenable. I believe the cd’s are still available relatively cheaply and I highly recommend it.


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## premont

PSchiefelbein said:


> I posted on a related thread, but I grew up with Mogen Woldike's 1959 recording on Vanguard. I still regard it as a perfect halfway point between old school and HIP approaches. The music has a rhythmic flow without sounding like an unintended race to the finish. The orchestral forces are small but world-class, the soloists are excellent and feel completely engaged with their texts, and, yes, the closing sections have brought me to tears. The choruses on the 1998 remastering sound congested, but the smaller scale pieces are perfectly listenable. I believe the cd's are still available relatively cheaply and I highly recommend it.


I have heard Wöldike perform the SMP in Copenhagen (1964 IIRC). An experience which fully could measure up to the recording.


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## mbhaub

Glad I saw this thread. I've never heard this cantata in my 66 years. Guess it's about time. So I ordered a video version and will watch on Good Friday - seems appropriate. I never really cared for Bach that much, but as I age I find myself appreciating it more and more. Hope this is a good choice:


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## stelastic

Is it possible to repost this link?
I am a huge fan of this recording and it has never been issued on cd or in digital format. I would LOVE to have this - I knew this recording as a child and it means a great deal to me. My favorite passion by far.



wkasimer said:


> Here's a gift for all of you, a recording of the St. Matthew Passion conducted by Hans Swarowsky. Recorded in 1967 and originally issued in the US on Nonesuch LP's, it's never found its way to a commercial CD.
> 
> The link to download:
> 
> https://1fichier.com/?hsx42eknbc
> 
> Here are the details. For my ears, there has never been an Evangelist in the same league with Kurt Equiluz, and this is, I think, the best of his four recordings. And as a bonus, he sings the tenor arias, too. The other soloists are excellent.
> 
> Hans Swarowsky, conductor
> Vienna Academy Chamber Choir
> Vienna Choir
> Vienna State Symphony Orchestra
> 
> Kurt Equiluz, tenor (Evangelist and arias)
> Marius Rintzler, bass (Jesus)
> Heather Harper, soprano
> Gertrude Jahn, contralto
> Jakob Stämpfli, bass
> 
> Hellmut Reisberger, Gerhard Perz, flute
> Elisabeth Schäftlein, Hans Maria Kneihs, recorder
> Alfred Dutka, oboe
> Ernst Krall, Alfred Hertel, oboe da caccia
> Manfred Geyrhalter, violin
> Ulli Kneuer, viola da gamba
> Johann Sonnenleitner, harpsichord
> Herbert Tachezi, organ


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## mmsbls

stelastic said:


> Is it possible to repost this link?
> I am a huge fan of this recording and it has never been issued on cd or in digital format. I would LOVE to have this - I knew this recording as a child and it means a great deal to me. My favorite passion by far.


I believe you can hear this recording here. I think you may also be able to download it. There is a request for donations.


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## stelastic

mmsbls said:


> I believe you can hear this recording here. I think you may also be able to download it. There is a request for donations.


;Thank you so much!


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