# Furtwangler's view of late Brahms



## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Furtwangler wrote some very condemning things about late Brahms, or at least prima facie they sound condemning. He said that the stuff Brahms was writing in the 1890s is extremely old fashioned, he actually said it wasn't much different harmonically from Schubert's music from 70 years before. I don't know enough about music to say whether Furtwangler was right about that judgement. Maybe someone will comment.

Furtwangler rather disingenuously tries to rush to Brahms's defence with something I can't make head or tail of. He says: Brahms is the first great musician, in whose case historical meaning and meaning as an artistic personality no longer coincide: that this was so, was not his fault, but rather that of his epoch.

WTF does that mean?

These comments are taken from Furtwangler's essay "Brahms and the crisis of our times."


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## DiesIraeCX (Jul 21, 2014)

For anyone who comments on this, I think it's important to have Furtwangler's words verbatim for some context, here's the link to the essay:
http://davidsbuendler.freehostia.com/furt.htm


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## joen_cph (Jan 17, 2010)

He probably just means that Brahms´s expression became antiquated (and thus in a way antagonistic) in comparison to fashionable developments/currents in his time? History was busy moving forward with an increased speed, finding new ways ... 
Too simplified? Haven´t read the essay.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

DiesIraeVIX said:


> For anyone who comments on this, I think it's important to have Furtwangler's words verbatim for some context, here's the link to the essay:
> http://davidsbuendler.freehostia.com/furt.htm


Thanks ..................


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## brianvds (May 1, 2013)

Anyway, Furtwangler can go jump in a lake, until such time as he has composed anything half as good as the clarinet quintet.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Furtwängler was a one trick pony as far as Brahms was concerned-the First Symphony.


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## Andreas (Apr 27, 2012)

Mandryka said:


> Furtwangler rather disingenuously tries to rush to Brahms's defence with something I can't make head or tail of. He says: Brahms is the first great musician, in whose case historical meaning and meaning as an artistic personality no longer coincide: that this was so, was not his fault, but rather that of his epoch.
> 
> WTF does that mean?
> 
> These comments are taken from Furtwangler's essay "Brahms and the crisis of our times."


I don't know, and couldn't find, the original German version of the text. However, I think it's possible that the word "meaning" is perhaps not quite accurately translated. The word that was used in German must have been "Bedeutung", which also - and I think in this case more appropriately - translates as "significance".
But I guess the full context, as provided by DiesIraeVIX, illuminates this quote.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

In English _significance _can mean _importance _-- can bedeutung mean that? Anyway it's all a bit academic because we don't have the German essay.

His importance in history and his importance in art don't coincide. OK. Possibly. But WTF is this about: *that this was so, was not his fault, but rather that of his epoch
*???


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## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

Mandryka said:


> His importance in history and his importance in art don't coincide. OK. Possibly. But WTF is this about: *that this was so, was not his fault, but rather that of his epoch.
> *


That is, Brahms is great because of the artistic elements of his work, not because he carried the force of his era's innovation.

My sense is that Furtwangler is justifying his own position as a conservative composer "out of step with his own time" by referring to the "conservative" elements in Brahms' idiom.


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## Andreas (Apr 27, 2012)

Mahlerian said:


> That is, Brahms is great because of the artistic elements of his work, not because he carried the force of his era's innovation.
> 
> My sense is that Furtwangler is justifying his own position as a conservative composer "out of step with his own time" by referring to the "conservative" elements in Brahms' idiom.


Perhaps I'm being unfair to Furtwängler, but notwithstanding his premiering Schoenberg's Variations for Orchestra, I suspect he was an example of what we Germans call Kulturpessimismus, the opinion that everything is going downhill. This is often linked to a kind of reactionary, or at least nostalgic state of mind.
One music critic once related a story about Furtwängler, where he, in old age, increasingly hard of hearing, was presented with a prototype set of hearing aids, and he unthankfully smashed them.


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## Weston (Jul 11, 2008)

Mandryka said:


> He says: Brahms is *the first great musician, in whose case historical meaning and meaning as an artistic personality no longer coincide*: that this was so, was not his fault, but rather that of his epoch.


While I'm no music scholar, I'm skeptical of the accuracy of this claim. Couldn't this be said of J. S. Bach? Surely he was the first historically significant conservative -- if that's what is being hinted here.


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## Rapide (Oct 11, 2011)

Brahms was super conservative for his era given the pace of development that was happening around. That was it.


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## DiesIraeCX (Jul 21, 2014)

Rapide said:


> Brahms was super conservative for his era given the pace of development that was happening around. That was it.


There's no doubt about that, Brahms was a conservative in his era. That said, with that conservatism, he wrote some amazing original music, as contradictory as that may sound. Just listen to the 4th symphony for how Brahms innovated by ironically looking back towards the masters of the past.

This is a great listen, on Brahms' 4th symphony.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p01yx04j


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

True. Brahms was no innovating progressive. So what? His music within its framework was masterly.


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## amfortas (Jun 15, 2011)

Besides, Furtwängler was focusing on the *late* Brahms. Many composers, even those on the cutting edge in their youth, sound conservative in old age.

I'm looking at *you*, Richard Strauss.


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## waldvogel (Jul 10, 2011)

I highly prefer the essay "Brahms the Progressive". If you haven't read it before, try not to look at the author's name until you have finished it. Here is a synopsis of the essay.

http://friedfoo.wordpress.com/music/brahms-works-for-chamber-ensemble/arnold-schoenberg-brahms-the-progressive/


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## science (Oct 14, 2010)

One thing to note about that essay is that it takes some notice of form while Fürtwangler's comment is exclusively about harmony. Now I know Fürtwangler knew more about music... 
than people who know more about music... 
than people who know more about music... 
than people who know more about music than I do, but I for one little person don't see why the entire history of music has to be reduced to harmonic innovation. 

Also, while novelty is certainly one of my aesthetic values, it's not the only one... so even when some musician is something other than bewilderingly innovative I sometimes manage to appreciate the music.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

I haven't read Furtwangler's words ( and can't read German anyway), but I'm sure his point was not intended as disparagement.

If you want F's real take on late Brahms, listen to him conduct the fourth symphony. The intensity of the finale is almost unbelievable.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Woodduck said:


> I haven't read Furtwangler's words ( and can't read German anyway), but I'm sure his point was not intended as disparagement.
> 
> If you want F's real take on late Brahms, listen to him conduct the fourth symphony. The intensity of the finale is almost unbelievable.


I think Furtwangler was explicitly talking about the pieces Brahms wrote in the 1890s. I don't really know what he thought of that music in fact, so I'm not sure how disparaging he was being

The works in question are the op 116-119 piano pieces and

1890	Streichquintett Nr. 2	op. 111	(Streichquintett)	
1891	Klarinettenquintett h-moll	op. 115	(Klarinettenquintett)	
1891	Klarinettentrio a-moll	op. 114	(Klarinettentrio)	
1891	Nächtens	op. 112 Nr. 2	(Chorale Quartet)	
1891	Sehnsucht	op. 112 Nr. 1	(Chorale Quartet)	
1891	ZigeunerSong I	op. 112 Nr. 3	(Chorale Quartet)	
1891	ZigeunerSong II	op. 112 Nr. 4	(Chorale Quartet)	
1891	ZigeunerSong III	op. 112 Nr. 5	(Chorale Quartet)	
1893/94	Ach, englische Schäferin	(Song)	
1893/94	Ach Gott, wie weh tut Scheiden	(Song)	
1893/94	Ach könnt ich diesen Abend	(Song)	
1893/94	All mein Gedanken	(Song)	
1893/94	Da unten im Tale	(Song)	
1893/94	Dem Himmel will ich klagen	(Chorus)	
1893/94	Der Reiter	(Song)	
1893/94	Des Abends kann ich nicht schlafen gehn	(Song)	
1893/94	Die Sonne scheint nicht mehr	(Song)	
1893/94	Dort in den Weiden steht ein Haus	(Song)	
1893/94	Du mein einzig Licht	(Song)	
1893/94	Erlaube mir, feins Mädchen	(Song)	
1893/94	Es ging ein Maidlein zarte	(Song)	
1893/94	Es ging sich unsre Fraue	(Chorus)	
1893/94	Es reit ein Herr und auch sein Knecht	(Song)	
1893/94	Es ritt ein Ritter	(Song)	
1893/94	Es saß ein schneeweiß Vögelein	(Chorus)	
1893/94	Es steht ein Lind	(Song)	
1893/94	Es stunden drei Rosen	(Chorus)	
1893/94	Es war eine schöne Jüdin	(Song)	
1893/94	Es war einmal ein Zimmergesell	(Chorus)	
1893/94	Es war ein Markgraf überm Rhein	(Song)	
1893/94	Es wohnet ein Fiedler	(Song)
1893/94	Feinsliebchen, du sollst	(Song)	
1893/94	Gar lieblich hat sich gesellet	(Song)	
1893/94	Gunhilde	(Song)	
1893/94	Guten Abend	(Song)	
1893/94	Ich stand auf hohem Berge	(Song)	
1893/94	Ich weiß mir'n Maidlein	(Song)	
1893/94	In stiller Nacht	(Song)	
1893/94	Jungfräulein, soll ich mit euch gehn	(Song)	
1893/94	Maria ging aus wandern	(Song)	
1893/94	Mein Mädel hat einen Rosenmund	(Song)	
1893/94	Mir ist ein schöns brauns Maidelein	(Song)	
1893/94	Nachtigall, sag	(Chorus)	
1893/94	Nur ein Gesicht auf Erden lebt	(Song)	
1893/94	Och Moder, ich well ein Ding han	(Song)	
1893/94	Sagt mir, o schönste Schäf'rin mein	(Song)	
1893/94	Schöner Augen schöne Strahlen	(Song)	
1893/94	Schönster Schatz, mein Engel	(Song)	
1893/94	Schwesterlein	(Song)	
1893/94	Soll sich der Mond nicht heller scheinen	(Song)	
1893/94	So will ich frisch und fröhlich sein	(Song)	
1893/94	So wünsch ich ihr ein gute Nacht	(Song)	
1893/94	Verstohlen geht der Mond auf	(Chorus)	
1893/94	Wach auf, mein Hort	(Song)	
1893/94	Wach auf mein Herzensschöne	(Song)	
1893/94	We kumm ich dan de Pooz erenn?	(Song)	
1893/94	Wo gehst du hin, du Stolze?	(Song)	
1894	Sonate Es-Dur	op. 120 Nr. 2	(Sonate)	
1894	Sonate f-moll	op. 120 Nr. 1	(Sonate)	
1896	Denn es gehet dem Menschen wie dem Vieh	op. 121 Nr. 1	(Song)	
1896	Es ist ein Ros entsprungen	op. 122 Nr. 8	(Chorale)	
1896	Herzlich tut mich erfreuen	op. 122 Nr. 4	(Chorale)	
1896	Herzlich tut mich verlangen	op. 122 Nr. 9	(Chorale)	
1896	Herzlich tut mich verlangen	op. 122 Nr. 10	(Chorale)	
1896	Herzliebster Jesu	op. 122 Nr. 2	(Chorale)	
1896	Ich wandte mich, und sahe	op. 121 Nr. 2	(Song)	
1896	Mein Jesu, der du mich	op. 122 Nr. 1	(Chorale)	
1896	O Gott, du frommer Gott	op. 122 Nr. 7	(Chorale)	
1896	O Tod, o Tod, wie bitter bist du	op. 121 Nr. 3	(Song)	
1896	O Welt, ich muss dich lassen	op. 122 Nr. 3	(Chorale)	
1896	O Welt, ich muss dich lassen	op. 122 Nr. 11	(Chorale)	
1896	O wie selig seid ihr doch, ihr Frommen	op. 122 Nr. 6	(Chorale)	
1896	Schmücke dich, o liebe Seele	op. 122 Nr. 5	(Chorale)	
1896 ?	Wenn ich mit Menschen und mit Engelzungen redete	op. 121 Nr. 4	(Song)


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