# General Wagner Discussion



## annaw (May 4, 2019)

I am often tempted to get off-topic in Wagner threads because when it comes to a composer with such complex thoughts, theories and ideas, some things could be discussed from so many different perspectives and angles that many of them might not fit the original topic. Not to mention all the possible discussion about productions, conductors and singers that is not covered in other threads in its entirety.

I remember that there used to be a more or less active thread to discuss the great multitude of questions that might arise when listening to Wagner's _Ring_ but I often have questions, sometimes phiolosophical, sometimes not, about other Wagner operas as well but these question might not be worth making a new thread and so I haven't been able to ask them.

Now, to get to my main point - to avoid going off-topic in other Wagner threads because one cannot resist the temptation, I thought that a thread to discuss anything Wagner-related would be useful. That would mean any questions about Wagner, his ideas, operas or any other aspect of his life and works; recommendations, questions about different recordings etc. Of course, if there's already a thread for the thing you're interested in, its best to revive it, or if its a huge topic that requires extensive discussion and debating (e.g. Religion in Wagner's Parsifal) start a new thread as there are never too many active Wagner threads .

It seems that the great majority of Wagner-related threads are susceptible to aggressive discussion that finally "kills" or just takes the joy out of them. It would be utterly amazing if all the debates, that I find unavoidable and beneficial when it comes to Wagner, could be civil even if they are aggressive. Maybe this attempt is doomed to failure but I thought that I'd at least throw up the idea.

I'm likely to hit with some questions later after I've finally finished Krauss's _Siegfried_ but I certainly hope that others would find this thread useful as well.


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## zxxyxxz (Apr 14, 2020)

Great idea!

I also agree that there can never be too many Wagner threads.

Hopefully some good discussion can be had.

On that topic what do people look for in a good interpretation of the character Siegfried? I tend to look for someone who I think sounds youthful and impetuous. (I am capable of admitting other people sing well)

I always see him as a boy on the cusp of manhood. Confidence perhaps too much and also naivety.


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## Music Snob (Nov 14, 2018)

Where to begin... 

For starters I’ve so much to say for a long time but am prevented from spending time discussing on the board from all my other obligations. Here are some random thoughts-

I am addicted to the Bayreuth sound on historical recordings.

I can’t recommend enough buying Wagners complete letters and essays- they are a lifetime of knowledge.

He was, IMO, first and foremost an artist and I think that is key to understanding his approach to composing music.

His music is more complicated than it sounds to me. Upon analyzing his scores I am perplexed at the complicated nature of many of his scores.

Parsifal 54 Kna is by far my favorite. Weber is not my favorite Gurnemanz and the bass on Parsifal 54 is superb.

Solti’s Parsifal is underrated.

Kna 52 Meistersinger is great and it comes with a free Siegfried Idyll.

I can go on but I don’t have the time. I wish everyone hear the best. I consider you all peers and this site an oasis in the desert of life where I cannot talk about his music with anyone else besides my wife.

I may not be able to post on a regular basis but I certainly try to check in.


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## annaw (May 4, 2019)

zxxyxxz said:


> Great idea!
> 
> I also agree that there can never be too many Wagner threads.
> 
> ...


Yeah, I agree that youthful voice is important although I really enjoy e.g. Windgassen's less youthful but very skilful portrayals. Windgassen's voice has some inherent confidence and sheer power. In _Siegfried_ I feel almost everything about Siegfried should be slightly childlike but innocent. Fafner says to him: "Who goaded the mettlesome to commit this murderous deed? Your brain did not brood upon what you have done." (Millington) This is actually similar to the scene in _Parsifal_ after Parsifal had killed the swan and similarly Siegfried develops and his character and thus the singing should be more mature in _Götterdämmerung_. That's at least my view.


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## zxxyxxz (Apr 14, 2020)

I always felt Windgassen to sound very youthful but each to their own.

I have never been convinced of Siegfried's maturity in Götterdämmerung, I still think he is a child thrust into the world of adults. He might be lord of the world but ignorant of anything except his own physical strength and an easy mark for those aware of how the world really works.


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## annaw (May 4, 2019)

zxxyxxz said:


> I always felt Windgassen to sound very youthful but each to their own.
> 
> I have never been convinced of Siegfried's maturity in Götterdämmerung, I still think he is a child thrust into the world of adults. *He might be lord of the world but ignorant of anything except his own physical strength and an easy mark for those aware of how the world really works.*


This is actually something that has recently confused me quite a bit. He's development is certainly not as striking as that of Parsifal but somehow it feels that Brünnhilde's knowledge has transferred to Siegfried but I don't entirely grasp what kind of knowledge Wagner meant when Brünnhilde says to Siegfried in Act I on _Götterdämmerung_: "What gods have taught me I gave to you: a bountiful store of hallowed runes." (Millington) If I remember correctly then some have interpreted this as the knowledge Brünnhilde obtained through Wotan's confession in Act II of _Die Walküre_ but the connection is not so obvious to me...


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## zxxyxxz (Apr 14, 2020)

That is a good point, as once he drinks the magic love potion everything seems a bit moot.


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## vivalagentenuova (Jun 11, 2019)

Melchior is the only one I've heard in the complete role who can handle the music in such a way that it actually comes off as playful and powerful, which is how I think of Siegfried. He also sings like many of the earlier singers, from the text, not by trying to "act" by gasping, shouting, spluttering, or doing any other number of things that are mostly there to cover for a voice that can't really sing the part. Windgassen is definitely second best as far as complete Siegfrieds go, though there were many greats who only recorded pieces of the role.

This raises another issue for me, which is that I only really got Wagner when I listened to the recordings from the 30s and 40s. For example, I found the first act of _Tristan_ to be dull, the vocal lines being largely incomprehensible spluttering. Until I heard Flagstad and Melchior sing in their live recording under Reiner in 1936. Suddenly it was _music_. It was drama too, because the text was being delivered in a comprehensible way. The various phrases that before had sounded like gasping for air now sounded like line readings. It was quite a revelation. To me, Wagner, and other composers of course, demands absolutely solid voices. Otherwise, it becomes painful to listen to.


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## annaw (May 4, 2019)

vivalagentenuova said:


> Melchior is the only one I've heard in the complete role who can handle the music in such a way that it actually comes off as playful and powerful, which is how I think of Siegfried. He also sings like many of the earlier singers, from the text, *not by trying to "act" by gasping, shouting, spluttering, or doing any other number of things that are mostly there to cover for a voice that can't really sing the part*. Windgassen is definitely second best as far as complete Siegfrieds go, though there were many greats who only recorded pieces of the role.
> 
> This raises another issue for me, which is that I only really got Wagner when I listened to the recordings from the 30s and 40s. For example, I found the first act of _Tristan_ to be dull, the vocal lines being largely incomprehensible spluttering. Until I heard Flagstad and Melchior sing in their live recording under Reiner in 1936. Suddenly it was _music_. It was drama too, because the text was being delivered in a comprehensible way. The various phrases that before had sounded like gasping for air now sounded like line readings. It was quite a revelation. To me, Wagner, and other composers of course, demands absolutely solid voices. Otherwise, it becomes painful to listen to.


It depends a lot on character and singer as well. For example Stolze did a lot of gasping, spluttering, crying and almost overdramatised Mime's character, Paul Kuen did that too, but imo this adds his interpretation only value and while his very character tenorish voice was for me initially difficult to listen to, I've grown to like it a lot. This adds something to the drama while accompanied with his great singing. Of course I agree with you that this shouldn't substitute great singing but only accompany it when needed.

I don't know but I feel I tend to listen to Wagner differently than most other operas. When listening to Italian opera I, for some reason, tend to focus much more on the singing and a bit less on drama and the interpretation of the character. With Wagner I focus on the dramaturgical interpretation more and not just the singing. Maybe it's just because I'm more familiar with Wagner...


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## vivalagentenuova (Jun 11, 2019)

I listened to the Bruno Walter Act I and Act II recordings last night, and I was being unfair to Hotter. He's really excellent there. I guess listening to later, less successful recordings had colored my memory. 

To me a singer can only sound like their part when the voice is totally free. If they don't have that control, then any sounds they make, intended to be expressive or otherwise, just sound like the singer struggling. I have this theory that is only half serious, but it's that a lot of people like more recent singers because they hear them spluttering, gasping, making sounds like they're in pain and think that they're expressing the character because operatic characters are just generally in pain of some kind. I don't mind it if the singer adds some extra spice, but only if they have the voice. The voice is the tool that singers use to be expressive. So if they don't have one, there can't be expression.


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## Sieglinde (Oct 25, 2009)

His music is divine. If I met him in person, I'd probably kick him in the balls after 5 minutes because he seemed to be rather insufferable, but I do love his music.

Parsifal is one of the most sublime things I ever heard.


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## zxxyxxz (Apr 14, 2020)

I personally love an over acted Mime! But then I love operettas and prefer overacting to plain.

On that note if none of you Wagner fans have encountered it before I whole heartedly recommend Oscar Straus's operetta Die Lustigen Nibelungen which is a send up of Götterdämmerung and his response to the "cult of Wagner". More info is available on here:

http://www.operetten-lexikon.info/?menu=96&lang=1

My 3 paragraph synopsis is in German and I have appalling language skills. But translating the page in chrome made it make sense. In fact it all made perfect sense to me 

I would recommend the 1951 recording from Vienna Radio on Cantus Classics which is over acted, well sung and a fun listen. I do have the more modern recording under Cappricio but I found it dull.


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## annaw (May 4, 2019)

zxxyxxz said:


> I personally love an over acted Mime! But then I love operettas and prefer overacting to plain.
> 
> On that note if none of you Wagner fans have encountered it before I whole heartedly recommend Oscar Straus's operetta Die Lustigen Nibelungen which is a send up of Götterdämmerung and his response to the "cult of Wagner". More info is available on here:
> 
> ...


The synopsis was rather amusing !


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## zxxyxxz (Apr 14, 2020)

I aim to entertain


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## annaw (May 4, 2019)

Jess Thomas - yay or nay? It seems that some people really like him while others not as much. I'm rather fond of his Lohengrin and Parsifal. He has a beautiful voice that I feel is very fit for those roles, especially Lohengrin, but maybe it's not dramatic enough for Tristan and not crazy and agile (how do you describe Windgassen?) enough for Siegfried though he has sung that as well but I haven't got around to listen to the recording.


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## zxxyxxz (Apr 14, 2020)

I confess to only listening to Jess Thomas's In Fernum Land in recent memory and I agree that he was very good, very beautiful and youthful with enough steel to remind you that he is a grown man. So I can imagine his Parsifal would be equally as good.

Crazy and agile describe Siegfried well I feel, to me Windgassen always sounds youthful possibly for the same qualities that make others say elderly. But I think he brings a good urgent intensity to the part that thinking back to my favourite performances of his could be described as manic.

For Tristan I think voices could go either way. Youthful certainly as he is a young man, loyal, couragous and somewhat impetuous. Equally I think the role needs a good dose of Siegmund esque mournful / longing / melancholy as he knows as clear as day that without his uncle's blessing his love his doomed. 

I think a deeper toned voice also works for Tristan as I view those sort of voices as older / imperial and as heir of Cornwall imperial and noble is a trait he should have 

For act 3 I like a bit of urgent and yes over the top mania that builds from Tristan's mournful start as he descends into madness. I think Windgassen captured this well and only got better in his later performances especially his very late Bayereuth ones but to my ears Nilson got worse and lost what made me love her 1958 performance.

For a very youthful sounding Tristan I like the peformance I have of Max Lorenz as Tristan.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

I found this an interesting article from 1971 by the late Desmond Shaw-Taylor

https://www.gramophone.co.uk/other/article/the-stars-of-the-karajan-ring


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## Simplicissimus (Feb 3, 2020)

I’ve been listening to Marek Janowski’s Ring cycle from 1982 with the Staatskapelle Dresden. Concerning the interesting discussion of the Siegfried character, I am wondering if anyone has an opinion about René Kollo’s performance in that role? I find him good, but have very little comparative experience.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Simplicissimus said:


> I've been listening to Marek Janowski's Ring cycle from 1982 with the Staatskapelle Dresden. Concerning the interesting discussion of the Siegfried character, I am wondering if anyone has an opinion about René Kollo's performance in that role? I find him good, but have very little comparative experience.


It's a pretty good Ring but Altmeyer is over parted as Brunnhilde.


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

Simplicissimus said:


> I've been listening to Marek Janowski's Ring cycle from 1982 with the Staatskapelle Dresden. Concerning the interesting discussion of the Siegfried character, I am wondering if anyone has an opinion about René Kollo's performance in that role? I find him good, but have very little comparative experience.


When he sang the role in 1990? in Munich he sounded stretched by the role. I've not been convinced by his Wagnerian singing. I've listened to that Ring cycle a long time ago and it didn't grab me both for the conducting and the casting of Brunhilde and Siegfried. However, Kollo was better in 82 than later.

N.


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## vivalagentenuova (Jun 11, 2019)

I can't stand Kollo's voice. I realize he's well liked in some quarters, but I've never heard a recording I didn't feel he was a blight on.



DavidA said:


> I found this an interesting article from 1971 by the late Desmond Shaw-Taylor
> 
> https://www.gramophone.co.uk/other/a...e-karajan-ring


Good article. I generally agree, though I'm not as keen on DFD as he is. Still, I think he's absolutely right that even in the two decades immediately after the war, casting something like the _Ring_ became much harder. Karajan's _Ring_ is extremely beautifully played, and since in a work like this there are long orchestral passages I can even enjoy a lot of it. But much of the singing is not up to snuff.

Thomas for me is in the "Good but not great" category, along with many singers from the 60s and 70s.


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## wkasimer (Jun 5, 2017)

zxxyxxz said:


> I personally love an over acted Mime!


I don't mind an over-the-top Mime. But I insist that however much he engages in vocal acting, the notes that Wagner wrote need to be SUNG. That's why I can't stand Paul Kuen in the role, and much prefer virtually every other Mime, most notably Stolze (particularly on the Karajan recording, or the 1958 Bayreuth), Wohlfahrt, and especially Heinz Zednik, whom I saw at the Met in the early 90's.


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## wkasimer (Jun 5, 2017)

Simplicissimus said:


> I've been listening to Marek Janowski's Ring cycle from 1982 with the Staatskapelle Dresden. Concerning the interesting discussion of the Siegfried character, I am wondering if anyone has an opinion about René Kollo's performance in that role? I find him good, but have very little comparative experience.


I'm not a fan of most of Kollo's Wagnerian work, but that Janowski RING finds him in much better voice than usual - I think that he's one of the better Siegfrieds in the stereo era, certainly better than virtually everyone who's recorded the role since.

As for the Janowski RING as a whole, I like it better than most people do. My biggest complaint is that BMG keeps issuing it with unnecessary breaks in different acts.


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## annaw (May 4, 2019)

wkasimer said:


> I don't mind an over-the-top Mime. But I insist that however much he engages in vocal acting, the notes that Wagner wrote need to be SUNG. That's why I can't stand Paul Kuen in the role, and much prefer virtually every other Mime, most notably Stolze (particularly on the Karajan recording, or the 1958 Bayreuth), Wohlfahrt, and especially Heinz Zednik, whom I saw at the Met in the early 90's.


Interesting, I actually quite liked Kuen in Krauss's recording but I don't exclude the possibility that I just like his voice and thus *cough cough* forgot to pay attention to the actual way he sings. Now I compared Stolze's and Kuen's "Zwangvolle Plage!" and I think I see what you mean.


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## annaw (May 4, 2019)

vivalagentenuova said:


> I can't stand Kollo's voice. I realize he's well liked in some quarters, but I've never heard a recording I didn't feel he was a blight on.
> 
> Good article. I generally agree, though I'm not as keen on DFD as he is. Still, I think he's absolutely right that even in the two decades immediately after the war, casting something like the _Ring_ became much harder. Karajan's _Ring_ is extremely beautifully played, and since in a work like this there are long orchestral passages I can even enjoy a lot of it. But much of the singing is not up to snuff.
> 
> *Thomas for me is in the "Good but not great" category*, along with many singers from the 60s and 70s.


Why so? I'm sometimes biased towards the recordings I listened first but Thomas is one whose Lohengrin and Parsifal have remained some of my favourites despite that I've become at least a bit more knowledgeable than at the time I started listening more extensively.


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## vivalagentenuova (Jun 11, 2019)

wkasimer said:


> I don't mind an over-the-top Mime. But I insist that however much he engages in vocal acting, the notes that Wagner wrote need to be SUNG. That's why I can't stand Paul Kuen in the role, and much prefer virtually every other Mime, most notably Stolze (particularly on the Karajan recording, or the 1958 Bayreuth), Wohlfahrt, and especially Heinz Zednik, whom I saw at the Met in the early 90's.


Agreed. Haven't heard some of those you mention. I like Heinrich Tessmer and Julius Patzak as Mime, in part precisely because they actually sing. I don't subscribe to the notion that the singer should actually sound like the character they are playing (in which case, why would they be singing?) so I don't want a Mime that makes weird little sounds. I want a singer with a developed voice who can sing Wagner's music, which contains the needed characterization.



annaw said:


> Why so? I'm sometimes biased towards the recordings I listened first but Thomas is one whose Lohengrin and Parsifal have remained some of my favourites despite that I've become at least a bit more knowledgeable than at the time I started listening more extensively.


He has an inoffensive tone that's free of major faults like wobbles but his voice lacks ring, at least in what I've heard. If I listen carefully to him and then Volker, or young Lorenz, or young Svanholm, or Melchior sing the same piece, one leaves me relatively cold while the other thrills. There's not enough oomph in his sound. For this reason I even prefer Del Monaco as Lohengrin, though to my knowledge there are no complete recordings with him.


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## howlingfantods (Jul 27, 2015)

annaw said:


> Jess Thomas - yay or nay?


Good Walther and Lohengrin, ok in Parsifal, and largely a failure as Siegfried in my opinion. Basically the more grand and heroic the character, the less I like Thomas--he simply doesn't sound very heroic to me, being essentially a lyric with a soft grained, intimate tone.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

howlingfantods said:


> Good Walther and Lohengrin, ok in Parsifal, and largely a failure as Siegfried in my opinion. Basically the more grand and heroic the character, the less I like Thomas--he simply doesn't sound very heroic to me, being essentially a lyric with a soft grained, intimate tone.


I liked hisSiegfried better than most as he actually sounded more of a young boy.


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## annaw (May 4, 2019)

vivalagentenuova said:


> He has an inoffensive tone that's free of major faults like wobbles but his voice lacks ring, at least in what I've heard. If I listen carefully to him and then Volker, or young Lorenz, or young Svanholm, or Melchior sing the same piece, one leaves me relatively cold while the other thrills. There's not enough oomph in his sound. For this reason I even prefer *Del Monaco* as Lohengrin, though to my knowledge there are no complete recordings with him.


Now that you mentioned Del Monaco.





He's so exited :lol:.


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## howlingfantods (Jul 27, 2015)

DavidA said:


> I liked hisSiegfried better than most as he actually sounded more of a young boy.


I do like more tenorial tenors for Siegfrieds for that reason more than the traditional baritonal heldentenors--one of the reasons I like Windgassen so much. But with Thomas, he sounds like a mild and inoffensive young boy, not a wild terror. I picture him in a prep school uniform, mildly saying "yes maam" and "yes sir" politely to everyone he meets.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

howlingfantods said:


> I do like more tenorial tenors for Siegfrieds for that reason more than the traditional baritonal heldentenors--one of the reasons I like Windgassen so much. But with Thomas, he sounds like a mild and inoffensive young boy, not a wild terror. I picture him in a prep school uniform, mildly saying "yes maam" and "yes sir" politely to everyone he meets.


Maybe as I hate the character of Siegfried I feel Thomas might be more amenable! :lol:


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## zxxyxxz (Apr 14, 2020)

DavidA said:


> Maybe as I hate the character of Siegfried I feel Thomas might be more amenable! :lol:


How can you hate Siegfried?! Siegfried is awesome!


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

zxxyxxz said:


> How can you hate Siegfried?! Siegfried is awesome!


Never did like bully boys. Personal dislike.


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## zxxyxxz (Apr 14, 2020)

DavidA said:


> Never did like bully boys. Personal dislike.


All things considered I have never seen Siegfried as a bully. An overgrown child yes. Bully not really.


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## annaw (May 4, 2019)

DavidA said:


> Never did like bully boys. Personal dislike.


I see what you mean but I think you oversimplify the character that Wagner intended us to see in Siegfried. I know you are not a particular fan of all the philosophy and stuff that one wouldn't consider exactly entertaining when talking about opera but this philosophy and "deeper meaning" of Siegfried is what in my opinion redeems his character. I mentioned this in another thread but one possible interpretation is that Mime is psychoanalytically a part of Siegfried - his (Jungian) shadow. This is the reason why he hates him so much as the shadow is often considered a largely negative aspect. This is a short excerpt from Wagner's letter to August Roeckel: _I have sought in Siegfried to represent my ideal of the perfect human being, whose highest consciousness manifests itself in the acknowledgment that all consciousness must find expression in present life and action. _

He wrote a lot more than that but already this one sentence proves that Siegfried was much deeper character than just a mere hero.


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## Hermastersvoice (Oct 15, 2018)

Moving on to Siegmund but staying with Melchior, I have in another thread mentioned the Walküre Act 1 from his 70th birthday concert. In wonderful stereo it is absolutely thrilling, no need to make allowance for age. He sings the socks off the competition:






And apologies, since this is one of my pet topics.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

annaw said:


> I see what you mean but I think you oversimplify the character that Wagner intended us to see in Siegfried. I know you are not a particular fan of all the philosophy and stuff that one wouldn't consider exactly entertaining when talking about opera but this philosophy and "deeper meaning" of Siegfried is what in my opinion redeems his character. I mentioned this in another thread but one possible interpretation is that Mime is psychoanalytically a part of Siegfried - his (Jungian) shadow. This is the reason why he hates him so much as the shadow is often considered a largely negative aspect. This is a short excerpt from Wagner's letter to August Roeckel: _I have sought in Siegfried to represent my ideal of the perfect human being, whose highest consciousness manifests itself in the acknowledgment that all consciousness must find expression in present life and action. _
> 
> He wrote a lot more than that but already this one sentence proves that Siegfried was much deeper character than just a mere hero.


Probably was Wagner's idea of a perfect human being. A bully who terrifies the dwarf with a bear and ends up killing him even though he is unarmed. I don't think Wagner thought far enough about Jungian shadows. More likely because Mime was weaker and ugly he deserved to be killed


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

DavidA said:


> Probably was Wagner's idea of a perfect human being. A bully who terrifies the dwarf with a bear and ends up killing him even though he is unarmed. I don't think Wagner thought far enough about Jungian shadows. More likely because Mime was weaker and ugly he deserved to be killed


Unarmed? He had a poison so that he could kill Siegfried, it was self defense. Is this a case of anti-Wagnerian bias?

N.


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## zxxyxxz (Apr 14, 2020)

DavidA said:


> Probably was Wagner's idea of a perfect human being. A bully who terrifies the dwarf with a bear and ends up killing him even though he is unarmed. I don't think Wagner thought far enough about Jungian shadows. More likely because Mime was weaker and ugly he deserved to be killed


I think by the time Mime dies Siegfried is rather justified in his actions. After all Mime gets his adopted son to face off against a dragon, all the while scheming to trick his son out of his share of the spoils and then the cherry on the cake murder said son.

After all if Mime opened his heart and embraced Siegfried truly as his son the dwarf would of had everything instead he ended up corrupted by the lure of power and wealth and met his messy end.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

zxxyxxz said:


> I think by the time Mime dies Siegfried is rather justified in his actions. After all Mime gets his adopted son to face off against a dragon, all the while scheming to trick his son out of his share of the spoils and then the cherry on the cake murder said son.
> 
> After all if Mime opened his heart and embraced Siegfried truly as his son the dwarf would of had everything instead he ended up corrupted by the lure of power and wealth and met his messy end.


Yes but what true hero would kill an unarmed dwarf?


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## annaw (May 4, 2019)

DavidA said:


> Probably was Wagner's idea of a perfect human being. A bully who terrifies the dwarf with a bear and ends up killing him even though he is unarmed. I don't think Wagner thought far enough about *Jungian shadows*. More likely because Mime was weaker and ugly he deserved to be killed


Mime wasn't exactly unarmed, he was planning to poison Siegfried and would have probably succeeded if Siegfried hadn't understood his inner thoughts. Wagner definitely didn't know anything about Jungian shadows, Carl Jung was 8 years old when Wagner died. The point of psychoanalysis and psychology is to explain how human mind works. If Jung's theory is correct, even partially, then it also explained human behaviour before Jung himself was born (gravity existed before Newton explained it). Jung himself was fascinated by Wagner's operas, he mentions Wagner multiple times in his own works and after all, Jung's psychoanalysis was a lot about myth analysis and that's what Wagner did as well. Thus, if Jung's own theory is partly inspired by Wagner, then it must work on Wagner's operas as well. I think you shouldn't underestimate Wagner's intellect, this guy studied Schopenhauer for years and understood his ideas rather well, he was also knowledgeable of Kant's, Fichte's and Hegel's philosophy that are arguably much tougher than Jung and read a lot of Goethe - he was a typical philosopher-artist of Romantic Germany. I don't think he needed to spend 26 years writing the _Ring_ is Siegfried's whole essence was being a bully. I don't think that Nietzsche would have idolised him if that was the case.


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## zxxyxxz (Apr 14, 2020)

DavidA said:


> Yes but what true hero would kill an unarmed dwarf?


A smart one. 

Besides he asks Mime for the truth and listens to his words properly thanks to the woodbird.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

zxxyxxz said:


> A smart one.
> 
> Besides he asks Mime for the truth and listens to his words properly thanks to the woodbird.


Yes I do know the opera. So you approve of killing unarmed dwarfs then? Bit of a Clint Eastwood complex? Do you feel lucky? :lol:


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## zxxyxxz (Apr 14, 2020)

DavidA said:


> Yes I do know the opera. So you approve of killing unarmed dwarfs then? Bit of a Clint Eastwood complex? Do you feel lucky? :lol:


So what kind of weapon would you class lethal poison he was going to use in a glass of water? At least Siegfried was up front about his feelings.


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## annaw (May 4, 2019)

There is a lot worse stuff than this in European myths, original myths are brutal but nevertheless I have heard them since my childhood (maybe it's just a Northern European thing, I don't know ). I actually remember walking around with a translated children's version of _Nibelungenlied_. Considering general myth thematics, killing a dwarf who has been taking care of you only to get the ring and kill you is not exactly a terrible deed, *considering that it's a myth, not real life*. It's symbolistic not realistic.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

annaw said:


> There is a lot worse stuff than this in European myths, original myths are brutal but nevertheless I have heard them since my childhood (maybe it's just a Northern European thing, I don't know ). I actually remember walking around with a translated children's version of _Nibelungenlied_. Considering general myth thematics, killing a dwarf who has been taking care of you only to get the ring and kill you is not exactly a terrible deed, *considering that it's a myth, not real life*. It's symbolistic not realistic.


Having been in parts of the world where real life 'Siegfrieds' (and brutal killings) are a terrible reality I don't get upset about Wagner's myth. I just said I don't like Siegfried as a hero. Do you?


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## annaw (May 4, 2019)

DavidA said:


> Having been in parts of the world where real life 'Siegfrieds' (and brutal killings) are a terrible reality I don't get upset about Wagner's myth. I just said I don't like Siegfried as a hero. Do you?


I see him from a philosophical and symbolical viewpoint, as Wagner himself at least partially intended us to view him, not as a mere human being. This redeems his actions because they convey a symbolical meaning in them, not a literal one. This was Wagner's way to convey his ideas and thoughts. I don't think he would have named his only son Siegfried had the character been nothing more than a bully.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

annaw said:


> I see him from a philosophical and symbolical viewpoint, as Wagner himself at least partially intended us to view him, not as a mere human being. This was Wagner's way to convey his ideas and thoughts. I don't think he would have named his only son Siegfried had the character been nothing more than a bully.


Of course Wagner did not see him that way. Just that I do. He was Wagner's idea of a hero. One man's hero is another man's bully.


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## ManateeFL (Mar 9, 2017)

Brünnhilde was Wagner's true idea of a hero, not Siegfried.


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## msmmsm (Mar 12, 2021)

Hello - I am a beginner to this site, and am not sure where to start, so I picked this general thread. Is there a 'Golden Melodram Wagner' thread? Specifically, I cannot find a copy of Lohengrin Keilberth 1953 Golden Melodram GM 1.0056 anywhere - does it exist? how many copies were sold? Typical selling price range? Looking for guidance on this question, and guidance on using this site to ask questions like this. Any help would be appreciated. Thanks - msmmsm (Michael)


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## MAS (Apr 15, 2015)

msmmsm said:


> Hello - I am a beginner to this site, and am not sure where to start, so I picked this general thread. Is there a 'Golden Melodram Wagner' thread? Specifically, I cannot find a copy of Lohengrin Keilberth 1953 Golden Melodram GM 1.0056 anywhere - does it exist? how many copies were sold? Typical selling price range? Looking for guidance on this question, and guidance on using this site to ask questions like this. Any help would be appreciated. Thanks - msmmsm (Michael)


Welcome to the forum, msmmsm. That recording was issued a couple of decades ago, so it's probably out of print. There are other issues on different labels (Andromeda is one, Naxos another), probably copied from the original LP or tape, or even CD. My advice it to keep looking if you really want only the Golden Melodram issue. You can also go to Amazon.com, eBay.com and search. You can go to norpete.com who traffics in historical recordings - upyou ca even call them and let them know what you're looking for. Good luck!


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## MAS (Apr 15, 2015)

MAS said:


> Welcome to the forum, msmmsm. That recording was issued a couple of decades ago, so it's probably out of print. There are other issues on different labels (Andromeda is one, Naxos another), probably copied from the original LP or tape, or even CD. My advice it to keep looking if you really want only the Golden Melodram issue. You can also go to Amazon.com, eBay.com and search. You can go to norpete.com who traffics in historical recordings - upyou ca even call them and let them know what you're looking for. Good luck!


P.S. on eBay you can enter search parameters and click on "Save This Search" and they'll notify you if the recording pops up on their site.


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## msmmsm (Mar 12, 2021)

Thank you! I have actually been looking for over a year - I see intermittent, and sometimes many copies of the other 57 GM Wagner recordings - but none ever of this one. Norpete is a good lead - I buy from them regularly. I think the long-time owner is retiring, and someone else is taking up the reins there. They are knowledgeable and might know. I was hoping for a thread here on TalkClassical, somewhere.


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## msmmsm (Mar 12, 2021)

really good tip - I set that up on the main ebay site, and all the international ones. I'll let you know if I find it (nothing yet). Do you know if there is a forum dedicated to Wagner Golden Melodram CDs?


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## msmmsm (Mar 12, 2021)

I am still getting used to how to post things, so please pardon me if this reply is redundant. First, thanks to both of you for your suggestions. Second, can anyone advise me as to whether there is a thread anywhere specifically on Golden Melodram Wagner recordings? Thank you in advance for any information about that that you may have.


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## adriesba (Dec 30, 2019)

msmmsm said:


> I am still getting used to how to post things, so please pardon me if this reply is redundant. First, thanks to both of you for your suggestions. Second, can anyone advise me as to whether there is a thread anywhere specifically on Golden Melodram Wagner recordings? Thank you in advance for any information about that that you may have.


That sounds like a perfect topic for the historical Wagner recordings thread: Historical Wagner Recordings...............


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

I don't know what the sound quality of the GM 53 Keilberth Lohengrin is like. However, the best of the rest (Naxos/Zyx/Teldec/Membran) is the Membran (a touch clearer than the others):









N.


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## MAS (Apr 15, 2015)

msmmsm said:


> I am still getting used to how to post things, so please pardon me if this reply is redundant. First, thanks to both of you for your suggestions. Second, can anyone advise me as to whether there is a thread anywhere specifically on Golden Melodram Wagner recordings? Thank you in advance for any information about that that you may have.


I don't know for sure, but I doubt that there is a thread *specific to *Golden Melodram. You could always start one. But the advice above about the historic Wagner thread is a good place to start and ask your questions.


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## MAS (Apr 15, 2015)

https://www.amazon.com/Wagner-Lohen.../ref=tmm_acd_swatch_0?_encoding=UTF8&qid=&sr=

Not GM, but sound samples are good

$13.95 + shipping


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## msmmsm (Mar 12, 2021)

Thanks for these suggestions. I have the Naxos, Membran, and Teldec versions of this one. This gets to one of my interests - not just what is the best, next best etc etc -performance overall, but what is the best release of each performance (and why). I like your suggestion to start simple, and so will introduce myself to the Historical Wagner Recordings thread.


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## superhorn (Mar 23, 2010)

Annaw, I like Stolze's rather over-the-top Mime . The character is so over-the-top anyway . The once timid and brutalized dwarf from Rheingold is now obsessed with getting hold of the Ring and all those goodies .


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## McCall3 (Nov 18, 2020)

I’m new to Opera in general, and have spent the past few months working my way through Wagner’s ten canon operas, listening to and watching each one several times. It’s been quite an amazing experience. I expected the music to be beautiful and it is, it’s different from anything I’ve heard before, and it’s wonderful. 

What’s surprised me are the librettos, I’ve been absolutely blown me away by them. I enjoy just listening to the operas as pure music too, but the literary quality of the librettos adds a whole other dimension to these works. I’ve done a bit of reading about them on this and other websites, which has been very informative, and I look forward to continuing to get more familiar with them.


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## MAS (Apr 15, 2015)

Oh! I didn’t know there was a General Wagner!:lol: :lol:


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## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

MAS said:


> Oh! I didn't know there was a General Wagner!:lol: :lol:


There were several of them 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eduard_Wagner

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norbert_Wagner_(General)

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heinz_Georg_Wagner_(General)

This is not surprising as it is a very common surname.


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