# Am I Too "Unqualified" to Submit My Stuff To A Composition Competition?



## kamalayka

I'm 24, am self-taught on guitar and piano, and have a solid foundation in harmony and basic counterpoint.

I've analysed many composers, too.

Unfortunately, to be taken serious as a composer in the 21st century, one needs a degree.

I guess my question is this: in a composition competition, does the music speak for itself, or is it an "old boys' club" sort of thing?

EDIT----------

I think a hindrance of mine is that I used primarily public domain works to learn music from. These texts, while supremely useful, use outdated terminology and (possibly) defunct approaches.

Here is one text I just finished working through a couple months back, published in 1799:

http://archive.org/details/imslp-es...osition-kollmann-augustus-frederic-christophe


----------



## ComposerOfAvantGarde

It depends on the competition. What do you have in mind? From what it sounds like though, you write stuff of considerable merit, worthy of being entered into competitions with a fair chance of winning, mainly aimed at composition students, your age and younger.


----------



## juergen

There are competitions, where you have to submit your piece anonymously. So, to take part no degree is necessary. But keep in mind, that the expected music needs to be somewhat "contemporary". So, if you work only through texts from 1799... You know what I mean?


----------



## PetrB

Most competitions are 'blind,' you submit a score, your name is tied to it on record by an assigned number, then passed to other parties who are the jurors / adjudicators. Many competitions have an age limit, but that is the ONLY requirement, other than submitting an entirely LEGIBLE coherent score.

The judges are almost never looking for 'more music like from the past,' no matter how well-written or of merit the piece may be. Nor are they necessarily looking for only the latest of the avant-garde or the latest new twist on music, but they do expect a currently written piece to be somehow within the parameters of harmonic style and construct of contemporary 'now.'

Other than that, the jurors have no idea of your gender, skin color, height, weight, if you have done formal studies, or not, or whether you have a triple graduate degrees one each in performance, composition and musicology (which a pal of mine does 

Contemporary music has within it a wide breadth of style, from arch-tonal to the most bracingly atonal, using irrational meter, and in a very different aesthetic than the more conservative 'tonalists.'
At one end of the Spectrum, you have the near mono triadic tonal of Philip glass, that notched up several slots in another 'minimalist,' Steve Reich, and yet again John Adams. All of these are considered in most quarters as very 'conservative' tonal composers, each of them, in a manner of regard, also 'populist.'
Adams ~ Dharma at Big Sur









at the other end of the spectrum, you have those from the 'school of the new complexity,' with Brian Fernyhough evidently making the most 'noise' and getting the most 'press.'
Fernyhough ~ String Quartet No. 3









The 'spectralist' crowd....
Beat Furrer ~ Piano Concerto





and here is a piece I just 'found' recently, and somewhat 'in between' in the way of vocabulary....
Cecilie Ore ~ Praesens subitus 





These pieces demonstrate what a huge 'latitude' there is now in what is deemed worthwhile and interesting.

If you can look at, better hear, what piece(s) have won in recent years past, it will give you a good idea of 'what they are looking for / expect.' If, year year, you detect similar 'style' or particular 'process' or formality which is common to the winners, then those judges have a narrower parameter of what they will consider. Often, there is no telling, their view is truly broad, and they will award the prize to 'the best piece,' but still, it must have something 'contemporary sounding' going for it.

If you are writing music which could be accepted for a popular movie score, that is NOT what they will be looking for 

Best of luck, enter or no, keep on composing.


----------



## KenOC

juergen said:


> But keep in mind, that the expected music needs to be somewhat "contemporary". So, if you work only through texts from 1799... You know what I mean?


Interesting. If I were to write several preludes and fugues in the style of, and of the *same quality*, as Sebastian Bach's, the judges would think them unworthy?


----------



## PetrB

KenOC said:


> Interesting. If I were to write several preludes and fugues in the style of, and of the *same quality*, as Sebastian Bach's, the judges would think them unworthy?


Not unworthy, and technically 'original' but all the work of making those happen as they are was done by a guy several hundreds of years ago -- even lively, that sort of work is 'academic.' No Awards for trodding a path so well beaten down in the past, that is all.

The set of 24 which Shostakovich composed modeled directly upon the W.T.K. had 'new harmonic practice' going for them. At that, those are still somewhat 'academic.' vs. completely 'fresh' invention.

I find the fourth movement fugue (serial) in Sam Barber's piano sonata more 'inventive' than the Shostakovitch.





and there is always Lenny's 'cool fugue' (12-tone) from West Side Story (starts @ about 0'40'')





What you've proposed is being done all the time: each semester, there is a 'crop yield' from music students around the globe who are taking the required of all undergraduates 18th century counterpoint class: some of those better than others... (But if you don't pass, no diploma, no way around it.)

~ Lady Gaga Fugue





Academic 'model' writing has a real purpose and value while within the academic regimen, however, once outside of Academe, when messing about with old forms or procedures, one is expected to 'make something new of it.'

P.s. when you are giving the money for the prize away from your own pocket, perhaps including the cost of a full performance by professionals, a recording, and sometimes a limited edition publication of the score, then you can decide which sort of music you wish to support


----------



## juergen

KenOC said:


> Interesting. If I were to write several preludes and fugues in the style of, and of the *same quality*, as Sebastian Bach's, the judges would think them unworthy?


Unworthy is perhaps not the correct term. But it would be unsuitable for a competition.

It is not just a matter of "good" or "bad" music. Even if you were to send in a piece, which would turn Bach green with envy, I can tell you almost certainly: You would be out of luck at a competition.

Look how many preludes and fugues Bach wrote. Do you think more of it is needed? In a competition it is also not primarily about to demonstrate your skills. It's about to deliver new, not previously written music.


----------



## KenOC

PetrB said:


> What you've proposed is being done all the time: each semester, there is a 'yield' from music students taking the required 18th century counterpoint class, some better than others....
> ~ Lady Gaga Fugue


Hardly of the same quality. Can you propose something that is?


----------



## Guest

kamalayka said:


> I'm 24, am self-taught on guitar and piano, and have a solid foundation in harmony and basic counterpoint.
> I've analysed many composers, too.
> 
> Unfortunately, to be taken serious as a composer in the 21st century, one needs a degree.
> 
> I guess my question is this: in a composition competition, does the music speak for itself, or is it an "old boys' club" sort of thing?
> 
> EDIT----------
> 
> I think a hindrance of mine is that I used primarily public domain works to learn music from. These texts, while supremely useful, use outdated terminology and (possibly) defunct approaches.
> 
> Here is one text I just finished working through a couple months back, published in 1799:
> 
> http://archive.org/details/imslp-es...osition-kollmann-augustus-frederic-christophe


The PDF attachment may give you some pointers as to what is expected. I got it from the Vienna-based Pierrot Lunaire Ensemble's website (ensemble for contemporary music) for their 2013 international composition competition. If you check out their site in a bit more detail, you'll get a good idea of what they'll be looking for. You can imagine it won't be music that is 'pastiche' in style, if you see what I mean.
There are also composition competitions for film (court métrage) and animation held by music colleges (usually those colleges that offer such composition courses at Master's level).
Hope this helps and good luck to you.


----------



## Ramako

juergen said:


> Look how many preludes and fugues Bach wrote. Do you think more of it is needed?


You wouldn't say that if music historians suddenly discovered the lost third book of the WTC. I doubt even some guy would say 'we don't have any need of more Bach prelude and fugues, this is worthless' in that case.


----------



## Guest

KenOC said:


> Interesting. If I were to write several preludes and fugues in the style of, and of the *same quality*, as Sebastian Bach's, the judges would think them unworthy?


PetrB and Juergen have already replied to your point, but I would like to add that the 'problem' would be one of pastiche. I'm not sure how it works on the literature side, but I imagine the various writing competitions and prizes that exist wouldn't be looking for writing that came across as Dickens or Chaucer. Would you buy a book that was written last year (and let's imagine written with consummate technical skill) by author Jonathan InItForTheMoney that was stylistically very close to Daniel Defoe or Samuel Johnson?


----------



## juergen

Ramako said:


> You wouldn't say that if music historians suddenly discovered the lost third book of the WTC. I doubt even some guy would say 'we don't have any need of more Bach prelude and fugues, this is worthless'. They would receive nothing less than adoration and worship. Everyone knows this.


You are right. The musical world would be thrilled.

However, things would be VERY different if those pieces not had been written by Bach. Believe me, if they would be written by you or me, no one would take any notice of it. The chapters "fugues in the style of Bach" and "symphonies in the style of Mozart" are simply closed.


----------



## Ramako

TalkingHead said:


> Would you buy a book that was written last year (and let's imagine written *with consummate technical skill*) by author Jonathan InItForTheMoney that was stylistically very close to Daniel Defoe or Samuel Johnson?


It's not just a matter of technical skill. It's a matter of artistic intent. If it had the same artistic merit then it makes absolutely no difference, and artistic merit has nothing to do with when it was written. That has to do with the composer's inventive skills, thinking of ways to expand the boundaries of the art. But the fact that the Eroica enormously expanded the possibilities of the art is a matter of historical interest, not musical interest. This sort of mentality implies that people enjoy music as they would enjoy a museum exhibit. Now, I may be a cultural lout, but I generally find museums rather boring. I find music extremely interesting however.

Historical interest is of course a legitimate way of enjoying a piece, and will often contribute to one's sense of satisfaction on listening to it. People are interested in, and *always have been*, pushing the boundaries of the art. However it is not the same as, and should not be confused with, artistic merit.

(it should be obvious, that if the book was similar to an author who I actually like reasonably but written last year, yes I would)


----------



## Guest

Ramako said:


> You wouldn't say that if music historians suddenly discovered the lost third book of the WTC. I doubt even some guy would say 'we don't have any need of more Bach prelude and fugues, this is worthless' in that case.


I think *a lot more* Bach preludes and fugues are needed, no doubt about it, and if they turn up by chance, then we'll have much to be happy about. So long as they are by Bach, and not written a couple of years ago (with consummate technical aplomb) by young up-and-coming Korean composer Kim Jong This'llfool-em.
Same for painting: we'd all jump for joy if some lost painting by Titian or Turner (or whoever) turned up in someone's attic, but I personally wouldn't be interested in an artist today who paints in the style of an earlier master. That is not to say that I wouldn't appreciate the former's technical brilliance.


----------



## PetrB

Dude, I already did, the Barber, the Bernstein, not the 'sounds like Bach' Lady Gaga Schtick. If you need something more literally Bach-like sounding, check out the fugue movements in the Hindemith piano sonatas, though I find his sort of working from the past far too 'referential.'

Try the last movement of Ives' Symphony No. 4, maybe?

Are you really that much of a literalist to conceive of any real worth to writing a fugue which might be mistaken for an undiscovered work of Bach? That is in the realms of 'clever and successful hoax.'

There are many discarded fugues 'worthy as Bach's' which came out of those 18th century counterpoint classes. So far, it seems that not one former student has thought anything of that student work worth presenting as 'their own.'

Maybe you can solicit those scores if any of those former students still have them, (I, along with many classmates, just dumped them at the end of term, the excellent, the less than, etc. all went in the garbage) receive them, review them, compile them, publish them, and see if the world beats a path to your door. I seriously doubt there is any market for even the best of those, but who knows?

P.s. It may be since you have no training, have not composed any at all, that you think coming up with any of this sort of thing is at least a minor miracle. I can assure you, it is not. From great to barely passing, legions of music students crank this stuff out each semester. Part of the required syllabus, part of the job, basic training, end of story.


----------



## Ramako

juergen said:


> You are right. The musical world would be thrilled.
> 
> However, things would be VERY different if those pieces not had been written by Bach. Believe me, if they would be written by you or by me, no one would take any notice of it.


Oh yes that is certainly true (at least until after our lifetimes - then people would proclaim us unappreciated geniuses), but really that shows we're not actually that interested in the music itself, surely doesn't it? It shows how much we *do* care about the circumstances in which a piece of music was written. The same people who say they don't care about the circumstances in which a composition is written (as a member here quotes, "I don't care if the composer had a toothache when he wrote it") are usually the same who say that pastiche composition is worthless. Unless treated carefully this position inherently is self-contradictory.



juergen said:


> The chapters "fugues in the style of Bach" and "symphonies in the style of Mozart" are simply closed.


But they could be reopened! The main defence of the view above this quote is that pastiche music of the same quality as (say) Bach is impossible. This view is defensible - it has not really been demonstrated that it is yet. Beethoven held this view w.r.t. Palestrina for example. However, it is a matter of dogma, as it can't be proved. It can be disproved however: and if it were that would be in my view a far greater step forward in music history than something else new at this stage. The new vistas open to us would be tremendous.


----------



## Ramako

PetrB said:


> There are many discarded fugues 'worthy as Bach's' which came out of those 18th century counterpoint classes.


Well then, why do I bother listening to Bach? Obviously he can't have been much better than all those students then!



TalkingHead said:


> I think *a lot more* Bach preludes and fugues are needed, no doubt about it, and if they turn up by chance, then we'll have much to be happy about. So long as they are by Bach, and not written a couple of years ago (with consummate technical aplomb) by young up-and-coming Korean composer Kim Jong This'llfool-em.


Why on earth should it matter who it is by?


----------



## PetrB

Ramako said:


> You wouldn't say that if music historians suddenly discovered the lost third book of the WTC. I doubt even some guy would say 'we don't have any need of more Bach prelude and fugues, this is worthless' in that case.


I think we have enough, but... although a lot of Bach bores me to tears (perfectly written, perfectly boring) I might just be interested if there was as much a jump in book III compared to book II of the freewheeling looseness as there is in book II as compared to the squareness and rigidity of the material in book I.


----------



## Guest

Ramako said:


> Why on earth should it matter who it is by?


I didn't express myself very well at all. I meant I'd be very happy if some lost Bach preludes and fugues turned up. I'd be equally happy if some formerly lost preludes and fugues by unknown composers from that period also turned up. I have to say that I would not be overly interested in hearing a prelude and fugue composed today in the Bach idiom, other than for exam marking purposes.


----------



## Ramako

kamalayka said:


> I'm 24, am self-taught on guitar and piano, and have a solid foundation in harmony and basic counterpoint.
> 
> I've analysed many composers, too.
> 
> Unfortunately, to be taken serious as a composer in the 21st century, one needs a degree.
> 
> I guess my question is this: in a composition competition, does the music speak for itself, or is it an "old boys' club" sort of thing?
> 
> EDIT----------
> 
> I think a hindrance of mine is that I used primarily public domain works to learn music from. These texts, while supremely useful, use outdated terminology and (possibly) defunct approaches.
> 
> Here is one text I just finished working through a couple months back, published in 1799:
> 
> http://archive.org/details/imslp-es...osition-kollmann-augustus-frederic-christophe


My apologies for helping derail the discussion somewhat... KenOC made a post linking to this article at some point, and while it is obviously a joke, there is a fair amount of truth in the gist of it too.

http://cereal-music.blogspot.co.uk/2013/02/how-to-win-composing.html

As long as it is an anonymous competition, however, it really doesn't matter, I don't think, whether or not you have a degree.


----------



## Guest

Talking of fugue and its relevance today, hereafter is a link to a website for a competition (2000$ prize money!) for fugal writing. The link is to the Mannes College New School for Music. For you Kamalayka and perhaps others.
http://www.newschool.edu/uploadedFiles/Mannes/Documents/Mannes_Theory_and_Fugue_Award2013.pdf


----------



## juergen

Ramako said:


> But they could be reopened! The main defence of the view above this quote is that pastiche music of the same quality as (say) Bach is impossible. This view is defensible - it has not really been demonstrated that it is yet.


Reopening closed music history chapters? Who should do that and why? Because you think that the music of the classical era sounded better than any contemporary music?

I would rather say that your task as a composer is to demonstrate that it is possible to compose pieces that sound musically convincing and contemporary at the same time. If you have composed something like that, then you should also have chances at a competition.


----------



## PetrB

As much as the entire world has become insecure enough to be 'diploma happy,' as if it is some guarantor of real quality or competence (degrees are not guarantors of anything, just proof you finish things and passed courses) the business of art at a professional level is very much about performance / or producing what you make.

Audition as a performer, and afterward, if you have made any impression, you then may be asked where you trained and with whom you studied the instrument. Ditto when submitting a score. 

The arena of the arts as profession is still very much in the dynamic of the old saw, "You are only as good as your last performance / show / exhibit / piece." Only a tenured post can vaguely assure you that you might be able to slack off the least little bit 

Write the best piece you can in the way you can write. Never a bad thing to have 'an assignment,' i.e. for three winds, six strings and timpani, already proscribed for you, and a deadline.

Do look at what has garnered praise, attention, and the award -- to see if your vocabulary will at all allow your work to be 'competitive' within that context -- before you pay your fee and submit your score. 

If it is not, you will have a completed piece, usually for a pretty practical to perform ensemble of a limited number of players - not a bad thing, again.

Not at all wishing to sound or be cynical, but matter of fact: There are thousands of former prize winners, both performance and composition, who win one or more prizes, even the most prestigious ones, who are later never heard from again. Some of that is on the individual who won the prize, the rest, on the judges. All that is meant to mean is the judges are musicians and judges, not prescient seers of what the future is, nor what music will be liked, respected, or played later as taking and holding the public imagination.

There are numbers of well-known performers and composers who did compete but have never won a prize in their life.

An award or prize can be an enormous help, and / or launch or boost a career. Even the most prestigious competitions, if you look at years of past winners, have not consistently awarded prizes to those who would become later well known.

At best, they work well enough, while still being the proverbial crap-shoot, flinging a pair of dice to roll.

Unless the entry fee is a hideous amount, I'd say go for it. You may soon enough be near or on the age cutoff line, when overnight you become 'too old' to qualify  So now is the time.


----------



## PetrB

Ramako said:


> Well then, why do I bother listening to Bach? Obviously he can't have been much better than all those students then!
> 
> Why on earth should it matter who it is by?


You fail to recognize that a later 'model / imitation' will inevitably lack the embodied ethos of the composer in the time they were written, and that je ne sais quois which stamps a work distinctly with the composer's musical fingerprint, their DNA embedded in the music, as it were, will not be there, or only a pretend and pale imitation may be present.

Those subtle things are what has inevitably 'tripped up' and exposed most of the most excellent 'forgeries' which were first accepted as genuine, in both the realms of art and music.

If they are not by Bach, they are not Bach preludes and fugues, to state the flamingly obvious.

If you are writing somewhat like Brahms, you have yet no musical personality of your own, or perhaps you are still searching for one.

In art, you are expected to come up with 'your own stuff,' which is exactly what all the past great artists whose work still speaks to us did. Anything less is a parody, a travesty, even, like a female impersonator, or an Elvis look and sing-alike performer.

And... why bother when Bach has already written all the great Bach Preludes and Fugues. Write your own, make it not like Bach.

While any with the urge to write would admit to wishing to be able to write as well as composers X, Y, and Z, the idea of writing 'just like them' is for the realms of academic exercise.

The closest and very traditional manner of making an hommage in music is the 'ala maniere de' type of work, often successful and freshly original, it is not a direct imitation.


----------



## hreichgott

I'm curious. Do composition competitions value inventiveness/originality first, over other considerations?

If I were an orchestra conductor, or an audience member, or an opera board of directors, or a classical music DJ, or basically anyone involved in supporting new music other than a competition judge, I'd probably choose contemporary repertoire according to pretty much the same criteria as repertoire from any other period. Is it beautiful (beauty isn't necessarily pleasant prettiness)? Is it constructed with skill? Does it have an interesting mood or character or narrative? Does it use rhythm and line in engaging ways? Is it unique enough compared to the ensemble's existing repertoire to make it worthwhile to learn? Will it give an audience a meaningful experience? And (of course) does it fit the constraints of a particular venue/event in terms of length and feel and instrumentation? Originality plays a role here, but it isn't the most important. 

Do you think there is there one sort of music that wins competitions, and another sort that wins performances?


----------



## kamalayka

Thanks for the replies, everybody.

If the opportunity ever presents itself in the future, I might just try to get a music degree. Having feedback with experts and other learners is always a better idea than going at it alone!

Modern stuff is far beyond where my musical sense is. It's probably going to take a long time before I can like atonal stuff.


----------



## Crudblud

kamalayka said:


> How do I learn to like atonal music? I suppose that a modern music education would require studying this area, but it's so god-awful.


Oh boy here we go again. I'm not going to get in to the debate of what is tonal vs. what is atonal, but just like not all baroque music sounds the same, not all modern music sounds the same. For instance, it cannot be said that this sounds like this, or that this sounds like this. The only thing you can do is explore and see what clicks, like with any other kind of music.


----------



## PetrB

TalkingHead said:


> Talking of fugue and its relevance today, hereafter is a link to a website for a competition (2000$ prize money!) for fugal writing. The link is to the Mannes College New School for Music. For you Kamalayka and perhaps others.
> http://www.newschool.edu/uploadedFiles/Mannes/Documents/Mannes_Theory_and_Fugue_Award2013.pdf


"The fugue must be submitted in
manuscript, written in the hand of
its composer rather than generated
by a computer. "

_love it _


----------



## Ramako

PetrB said:


> You fail to recognize that a later 'model / imitation' will inevitably lack the embodied ethos of the composer in the time they were written, and that je ne sais quois which stamps a work distinctly with the composer's musical fingerprint, their DNA embedded in the music, as it were, will not be there, or only a pretend and pale imitation may be present.


I acknowledged this position in post 16, though somewhat less eloquently than you have just described it. It remains not-disproven, but cannot by its nature be proved, however well-supported by the evidence it might be up to this stage.

If you reread the preceding posts, you will see that the question of a writing of a 'masterpiece' in literal Bach-style in order to examine whether, if such a thing were possible, it would be desirable. To say otherwise would be to place more emphasis on the contextual aspect of music than the formal, which, while entirely valid of course, does of course have a bearing on one's other views on music.

This is relevant because no one is necessarily proposing writing strictly in a Bachian style, (although I don't think such a thing would be undesirable if it could be done effectively), but we are talking, again, about valid styles of contemporary composition. The insistence that writing tonal music means imitating an individual past composer is nothing more than a red herring. The idea that the composers who have already lived necessarily explored all that there was to explore about tonality cannot be taken seriously. The most powerful argument against using tonality is that we no longer have conviction in it. This is more compelling, though given that many composers, from Beethoven to Part, have at times very successfully written in a very self-conscious way undermines it somewhat.

Competitions demand more modern-sounding music. Given the obstacles such music, and composers of such music, have to face in the commercial world I am all for them, and all for them to be as such. Still, I think they could be a little more clear about what they want.


----------



## juergen

PetrB said:


> "The fugue must be submitted in
> manuscript, written in the hand of
> its composer rather than generated
> by a computer. "
> 
> _love it _


That's a ridiculous requirement. I would not take that seriously. What do they think in what age we live in?

Of course I would use a computer. Then I would copy the result manually onto paper and submit that "manuscript written in the hand of the composer". And I wouldn't have any bad feeling about that.

I wonder why they didn't ask for a composition written under candle light rather than electric light.


----------



## Guest

juergen said:


> That's a ridiculous requirement. I would not take that seriously. What do they think in what age we live in?
> Of course I would use a computer. Then I would copy the result manually onto paper and submit that "manuscript written in the hand of the composer". And I wouldn't have any bad feeling about that.
> 
> *I wonder why they didn't ask for a composition written under candle light rather than electric light*.


And whilst wearing a powdered wig?


----------



## Guest

Let's not forget that the competition in question (see website link in one of my posts above) is for students at their faculty. I must say 2000$ is a great motivation. In my day (93 years ago) our Faculty professor told us "We need such and such a composition for such and such an event. Get to it."


----------



## juergen

TalkingHead said:


> And whilst wearing a powdered wig?


:lol:

And whilst drinking cheap wine from lead cups. Composers who have already become almost deaf will be preferred.


----------

