# John Williams stole Harry Potter Theme from Faure?



## Dustin

I was just listening to the sicilienne from Faure's Pelleas et Melisande and it is basically the exact same theme of the Harry Potter films(Hedwig's Theme). Not just a vague resemblance, but pretty much the SAME. Anyone else recognize this or know if he did this on purpose as some sort of tribute?

And all these years I've thought so highly of that particular theme and praised John Williams for it.


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## scratchgolf

I'm not familiar with this particular piece but I always feel the need to give John Williams a pass. He's certainly gifted musically but he's burdened by two major factors. The first being that he's composing in a highly different atmosphere than those who preceded him, and we tend to discredit contemporary achievement. The second being the undeniable influences to which he will always be judged. I realize this is slightly off-topic but I've yet to see a thread where it's appropriate. The further you venture from the flame, the less you feel the heat. I've often wondered how Williams would be regarded under different circumstances or in another era. He certainly has written some memorable pieces but he'll always be known as "that movie composer". If his works were considered as stand alone, without the burden of the movie industry, I think he'd be looked at in a different light. I will certainly research the similarities in these two works as I'm always curious to see where the line between influence and thievery is crossed.


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## aakermit

Didn't Beethoven steal from Bach? This has been going on for a very long time. Maybe I am wrong. I'm a relative newbie to classical music.


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## KenOC

Dustin said:


> And all these years I've thought so highly of that particular theme and praised John Williams for it.


As Handel is supposed to have said: "Of course I used his tune. That idiot didn't know what to do with it. I did."

BTW I don't remember any instance of a theft from Bach by Beethoven being noted. Or vice-versa.


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## Couac Addict

Is anyone surprised?














Plenty more here...
http://www.jwfan.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=23371

His Parade of the Slave Children is from something as well but I can't put my finger on it. Someone here will probably know.


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## jim prideaux

Star Wars theme always reminded me of Brahms 2nd piano concerto 1st movement.....


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## Guest

I guess if you have to churn out work to order and to deadlines, you're bound to have to take shortcuts?


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## PetrB

scratchgolf said:


> I always feel the need to give John Williams a pass. He's certainly gifted musically but he's burdened by two major factors. The first being that he's composing in a highly different atmosphere than those who preceded him, and we tend to discredit contemporary achievement. The second being the undeniable influences to which he will always be judged.... *The further you venture from the flame, the less you feel the heat.* I've often wondered how Williams would be regarded under different circumstances or in another era.





MacLeod said:


> I guess if you have to churn out work to order and to deadlines, you're bound to have to take shortcuts?


It is not just that, but music by the yard, or stopwatch, made to order, and part of the craft is coming up, quickly, _with music in whatever style and genre the director has requested go under that scene_. 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warsaw_Concerto#Background

Whether a film composer is later known for an individual sound is not as important that they be a jack of all styles entering the field, or they won't get work enough to allow being known later for an individual style.

Erich Wolfgang Korngold, desperately needing work as a newly arrived emigre in the U.S.A. and knew, really, only how to compose: Hollywood was ripe for him -- that big orchestral late romantic style became, via Korngold, "the Hollywood sound."

You usually get no more than two weeks to complete a score from when you are first presented with a final cut of the film. Of course, even with carte blanche from the director, you will likely at least unconsciously crib a little of this and a lot of something else in making that deadline.

Sorry, a composer whose main body of work is so utterly derivative of earlier works is normally not going to garner much high appreciation in the arts circles; a lifetime career in that usually results in their original 'classical' works sounding like an imitation of an original contemporary work.

The craft of the film composer, and _speed of execution,_ usually does have just about anyone who knows what is involved holding that skill of the film composer someplace in the scale of esteems between admiration and awe.

ADD P.s. Nearly the entirety of film scores are not orchestrated by the composer, but another who specializes in rapidly scoring the composer's "score" which is usually in the form of a piano draft. A film composer who does their own scoring is a relative rarity in the industry.


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## mikey

Recent one I discovered - Superman anyone?


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## jim prideaux

and another thing...Ice Cold in Alex (one of the 'masterpieces'of post war British cinema) theme sounds like the last movement of Neilsen 3rd symphony.....well it does to me!


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## science

Daugherty does it in the other direction.










Don't know why he has to steal ideas from Superman. Couldn't he have thought of his own superhero?


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## PetrB

science said:


> Daugherty does it in the other direction.
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> Don't know why he has to steal ideas from Superman. Couldn't he have thought of his own superhero?


Oh lord spare us... why didn't Wagner make up a completely new mythology for _Der Ring der Nibelung_?

Why didn't ALW invent his own savior for _Jesus Christ, Superstar_?

Those composers chose something with an in-place recognition and general appeal / interest to many. Anything new would not have that general recognition factor.


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## science

PetrB said:


> Oh lord spare us... why didn't Wagner make up a completely new mythology for _Der Ring der Nibelung_?
> 
> Why didn't ALW invent his own savior for _Jesus Christ, Superstar_?
> 
> Those composers chose something with an in-place recognition and general appeal / interest to many. Anything new would not have that general recognition factor.


Ummmm…

You know I was kidding, right?


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## techniquest

James Horner is a great one for this sort of thing, mostly with Prokofiev. Taking apart this one track:





It's possible to find bits of Romeo & Juliet (0.04); the 20th Anniversary cantata (0.24); Peter & the Wolf (bird) (1.18); Lieutenant Kije (1.33); Peter & The Wolf (Hunters) (3.00)


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## Schumann

Dustin said:


> I was just listening to the sicilienne from Faure's Pelleas et Melisande and it is basically the exact same theme of the Harry Potter films(Hedwig's Theme). Not just a vague resemblance, but pretty much the SAME. Anyone else recognize this or know if he did this on purpose as some sort of tribute?
> 
> And all these years I've thought so highly of that particular theme and praised John Williams for it.


You are completely wrong about this subject! It has a whole other sound and character than the Hedwig's Theme, only the rhythm can be associated in a tiny manner but that's it. It's too far fetched! This way I can give you thousands examples of so called "STOLEN" themes.


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## Couac Addict

So, if take some Dvorak...stick some Mahler on the end of it and call it E.T...does that make me a composer or an arranger?


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## Kevin Pearson

I do hear a similarity in both rhythm and melody. It doesn't mean that John Williams consciously did that but it interesting to listen to both themes back to back.


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## science

Couac Addict said:


> So, if take some Dvorak...stick some Mahler on the end of it and call it E.T...does that make me a composer or an arranger?


Actually I think it does.

But it probably doesn't make you a good one.


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## Dustin

Schumann said:


> You are completely wrong about this subject! It has a whole other sound and character than the Hedwig's Theme, only the rhythm can be associated in a tiny manner but that's it, it's too far fetched! This way I can give you thousands examples of so called "STOLEN" themes.


Haha your joking right? Harry Potter fan?

I've never heard a closer example of thievery for a longer stretch of bars, melody and rhythm and tempo included.


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## Art Rock

The similarity is indeed uncanning (I include the YouTube's for those unfamiliar with one or both - I did not know the Potter theme).


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## GiulioCesare

scratchgolf said:


> I'm not familiar with this particular piece but I always feel the need to give John Williams a pass. He's certainly gifted musically but he's burdened by two major factors. The first being that he's composing in a highly different atmosphere than those who preceded him, and we tend to discredit contemporary achievement. The second being the undeniable influences to which he will always be judged. I realize this is slightly off-topic but I've yet to see a thread where it's appropriate. The further you venture from the flame, the less you feel the heat. I've often wondered how Williams would be regarded under different circumstances or in another era. He certainly has written some memorable pieces but he'll always be known as "that movie composer". *If his works were considered as stand alone, without the burden of the movie industry, I think he'd be looked at in a different light.* I will certainly research the similarities in these two works as I'm always curious to see where the line between influence and thievery is crossed.


He'd be looked exactly like his numerous symphonic works not for movies are seen: as average, unoriginal and not particularly brilliant.


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## LordBlackudder

it doesn't sound anything like it. the first is bright, light and joyful. hedwig's theme is dark, mystical, spooky.

but i do agree some of his other works is playing tribute to others.


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## science

I like what Williams did with it at least. He was obviously going for something with an obvious innocence but a sinister underside, and he did it - not as well as Kilar did with "Lucy's Party" from the Dracula soundtrack (don't stop after 20 seconds) which it reminds me of, but still well enough to impress.

Edit: sinister / sister. Spellcheck be &@%#3&.


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## KenOC

techniquest said:


> James Horner is a great one for this sort of thing, mostly with Prokofiev.


Not just Prokofiev! There's a nice lift from the Sanctus of Britten's War Requiem used repeatedly in the movie Troy. Listen here at 1:12.


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## PetrB

KenOC said:


> Not just Prokofiev! There's a nice lift from the Sanctus of Britten's War Requiem used repeatedly in the movie Troy. Listen here at 1:12.


Now _that_ is some serious cribbing!

Thing is, the composer who does enough of it is more of a collage artist than a painter.


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## Cheyenne

I don't really care, it's merely a theme. The way Fauré uses it - and the way he orchestrated it! - is far superior.


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## Dustin

science said:


> I like what Williams did with it at least. He was obviously going for something with an obvious innocence but a sinister underside, and he did it - not as well as Kilar did with "Lucy's Party" from the Dracula soundtrack (don't stop after 20 seconds) which it reminds me of, but still well enough to impress.
> 
> Edit: sinister / sister. Spellcheck be &@%#3&.


I agree. I still like the Potter theme quite a bit and there's a lot of variety in the rest of the piece after the intro.


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## Aramis

Couac Addict said:


> So, if take some Dvorak...stick some Mahler on the end of it and call it E.T...does that make me a composer or an arranger?


No, it makes you crazy XIXth century surgeon who never existed


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## spradlig

Is the Parade of the Slave Children possibly similar to Shostakovich's First Symphony? While I like Shostakovich, I don't care for his First Symphony and I'll take the Parade of the Slave Children any day.



Couac Addict said:


> Is anyone surprised?
> 
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> Plenty more here...
> http://www.jwfan.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=23371
> 
> His Parade of the Slave Children is from something as well but I can't put my finger on it. Someone here will probably know.


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## spradlig

I listened to the first minute of the Faure Sicilienne from "Pelleas et Mellisande"). I had heard it several times before. I have seen the Harry Potter movies many times and heard "Hedwid's Theme" many, many times. I don't find much similarity there.

That's just my vote.



Art Rock said:


> The similarity is indeed uncanning (I include the YouTube's for those unfamiliar with one or both - I did not know the Potter theme).


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## spradlig

I think John Williams is a great film composer. He has written great scores for a huge number of films and his music perfectly fits the films, and is even enjoyable to listen to on its own. Many people, including many in this forum, accuse him of plagiarism or near-plagiarism, but in every instance in which I am familiar with both the Williams score and the piece he is allegedly stealing from, I disagree (maybe he really has, but I haven't heard a convincing example). Regardless of how much of his music he orchestrated, he must be credited for composing it. And I may have heard that unlike many film composers, he had enough clout at times to be allowed to orchestrate his own music.



scratchgolf said:


> I'm not familiar with this particular piece but I always feel the need to give John Williams a pass. He's certainly gifted musically but he's burdened by two major factors. The first being that he's composing in a highly different atmosphere than those who preceded him, and we tend to discredit contemporary achievement. The second being the undeniable influences to which he will always be judged. I realize this is slightly off-topic but I've yet to see a thread where it's appropriate. The further you venture from the flame, the less you feel the heat. I've often wondered how Williams would be regarded under different circumstances or in another era. He certainly has written some memorable pieces but he'll always be known as "that movie composer". If his works were considered as stand alone, without the burden of the movie industry, I think he'd be looked at in a different light. I will certainly research the similarities in these two works as I'm always curious to see where the line between influence and thievery is crossed.


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## spradlig

There is a famous quote from Stravinsky, something along the lines of, "A mediocre composer borrows from other composers. A great composer steals from other composers."



KenOC said:


> As Handel is supposed to have said: "Of course I used his tune. That idiot didn't know what to do with it. I did."
> 
> BTW I don't remember any instance of a theft from Bach by Beethoven being noted. Or vice-versa.


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## PetrB

spradlig said:


> I think John Williams is a great film composer. He has written great scores for a huge number of films and his music perfectly fits the films, and is even enjoyable to listen to on its own. Many people, including many in this forum, accuse him of plagiarism or near-plagiarism, but in every instance in which I am familiar with both the Williams score and the piece he is allegedly stealing from, I disagree (maybe he really has, but I haven't heard a convincing example). Regardless of how much of his music he orchestrated, he must be credited for composing it. And I may have heard that unlike many film composers, he had enough clout at times to be allowed to orchestrate his own music.


Plagiarism would be a no-no, and is rarely found in film scores. Cribbing, however, is rampant, and crib, Williams and dozens of others, have done and do all the time. That earlier citation in this thread -- just a few before this entry -- of Britten's War Requiem being cribbed in a James Horner score is a near wholesale lift, but it is 'new music' in a 'new context' -- and what is cribbed is not exact notes as much as contour, distinctive harmonic / orchestral gestures. None of that makes the film composer more or less a 'good film composer.'

For those who have so much classical repertoire in memory store, _[add - especially if 20th century classical rep is part of that data bank]_ too often the best of the film composers sound like they've cobbled together their scores from a cribbed bit of this, another cribbed bit of that to the point where the entire score (which may be very successful for you) is nothing more than an irksome reminder of a series of other well-known pieces, a kind of catalogue of scraps of classical rep which more than anything becomes a distraction vs. an enhancement of viewing the film.

For me, all those cribbed moments have me feeling, strongly, "but... I'd rather hear the real thing vs. a quickly made glossy imitation." If unavoidably preoccupied with that, you are no longer at all either concentrating on the film and the music is having an effect contrary to the one desired.

Once in a while, some film composers do seem to be able to compose music which does not remind you of any other composer.

If you are a classical composer (vs. film composer) your music not being a reminder of another composer's work is fairly paramount in how your work is received and judged.


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## PetrB

A response to any thinking of the better known famous composer quotes about borrowing or stealing:

There is a huge difference between reworking something and just nearly wholesale inserting a part of it or a gesture from it.

Those classical composers lifted something and _worked it to such a degree that it became *very much something else, and their own*_: this is simply not the case with a few bars of a film score which instantly prompts a listener's memory to think of another composer and piece altogether.


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## trazom

One conspiracy I find annoying is everyone seems to think every descending sequence in music that sounds remotely like Pachelbel's canon in D must've been 'borrowed' from it.


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## MozartEarlySymphonies

Personally, I don't think the Faure sounded like Hedwig's Theme, BUT Elgar's Cello Concerto does.


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## TrevRockOne

To me the most obvious Williams theft-er, I mean, homage-was from the 1st mvt of the Tchaikovsky violin concerto for the Han and Leia love theme. The theme in question begins at 0:19 in the Star Wars and at 0:56 in the Tchaik.


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## GodNickSatan

When listening to 'The Planets' my first reaction was "wow, this sounds like Star Wars!". I still love John Williams though. Listening to his film soundtracks helped get me into classical music.


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## scratchgolf

Once again, the similarities are there but I don't see it as theft. Honestly, how could anyone compose in this day and age without so many beautiful influences in their head? The human mind is a wondrous thing. I've never hidden my love for the Pastoral. It's an essential part of my life. I watched Fantasia frequently in my youth but haven't seen it in over 25 years. When I became obsessed with Beethoven's Symphonies, much later in life, I drew no connection, and was actually oblivious to its inclusion in Fantasia. At least on a conscious level. How much of my love for it is drawn from my youthful exposure will never be known. Imitation may be the sincerest form of flattery but unintentional imitation is the sincerest form of inspiration.


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## TrevRockOne

scratchgolf said:


> Once again, the similarities are there but I don't see it as theft. Honestly, how could anyone compose in this day and age without so many beautiful influences in their head? The human mind is a wondrous thing. I've never hidden my love for the Pastoral. It's an essential part of my life. I watched Fantasia frequently in my youth but haven't seen it in over 25 years. When I became obsessed with Beethoven's Symphonies, much later in life, I drew no connection, and was actually oblivious to its inclusion in Fantasia. At least on a conscious level. How much of my love for it is drawn from my youthful exposure will never be known. Imitation may be the sincerest form of flattery but unintentional imitation is the sincerest form of inspiration.


Williams' theft doesn't make me morally outraged or anything. I really don't mind; I actually find it fun exploring Romantic era music and finding all the nuggets that Williams had pilfered for Star Wars, a soundtrack that I've known since the age of 5. But in this case, I think it does indeed have to be called theft: those two themes are identical in all but incidental matters.


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## Guest

Well the Sicilienne bore a resemblance when I listened to it (never heard it before) and when I asked my wife, what it reminded her of, she had no hesitation, nor did my son, in saying Harry Potter.

"Bearing a resemblance" does not mean "plagiarism", nor does it diminish the value of Williams' work. But the more I listen to classical, the more I hear resemblances.


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## PetrB

TrevRockOne said:


> Williams' theft doesn't make me morally outraged or anything. I really don't mind; I actually find it fun exploring Romantic era music and finding all the nuggets that Williams had pilfered for Star Wars, a soundtrack that I've known since the age of 5.


Well, thanks for that context, which helped me frame this:

From the age of 5, you've become deeply familiar with classical rep, including the late romantics and the 20th century.

Someplace in your late twenties or early thirties, _Star Wars_ comes along. There you sit, trying to enjoy a fun sci-fi flick while the soundtrack is a near endless sequence / succession of cribbed or highly referential bits which remind you of the audio "ID this style or piece" quiz as experienced in a music history class.

That kind of "clever" quickly becomes neither admirable or enjoyable, but disappointing and annoying.

Recognizing a certain degree of polish re: craft is all that is left.


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## StevenOBrien

Composers are inspired by each other all the time. I've never understood why John Williams is held to a different standard. These "plagiarisms" are far "worse" than anything Williams has ever done:











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Also, that Faure theme sounds nothing like the theme from Harry Potter to my ears. It shares some intervals and it has a similar shape, but it's not Hedwig's theme. You are trying way too hard to find similarities.


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## StevenOBrien

Couac Addict said:


> So, if take some Dvorak...stick some Mahler on the end of it and call it E.T...does that make me a composer or an arranger?


I think you expect far too much from composers. You could just as easily say "Mozart's music is nothing but J.C. Bach with a bit of the Haydn brothers, L. Mozart, J.S. Bach and Schobert thrown in for good measure", because that IS what Mozart's consists of, and it doesn't diminish his legitimacy as a composer in any way.

Dvorak is just Brahms with some Slavic folk music thrown in for good measure.

Mahler is just a symphony writing Wagner wannabe!!


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## Piwikiwi

scratchgolf said:


> Once again, the similarities are there but I don't see it as theft. Honestly, how could anyone compose in this day and age without so many beautiful influences in their head? The human mind is a wondrous thing. I've never hidden my love for the Pastoral. It's an essential part of my life. I watched Fantasia frequently in my youth but haven't seen it in over 25 years. When I became obsessed with Beethoven's Symphonies, much later in life, I drew no connection, and was actually oblivious to its inclusion in Fantasia. At least on a conscious level. How much of my love for it is drawn from my youthful exposure will never be known. Imitation may be the sincerest form of flattery but unintentional imitation is the sincerest form of inspiration.


What do you think about this? This is not similar or a tribute, this is exactly the same
http://http://youtu.be/b9IV5u9iwuQ?t=2m57s


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## scratchgolf

Piwikiwi said:


> What do you think about this? This is not similar or a tribute, this is exactly the same
> http://http://youtu.be/b9IV5u9iwuQ?t=2m57s


Ok, ok. You've convinced me. I'm throwing away my Raiders of the Lost Ark underwear!


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## moody

StevenOBrien said:


> I think you expect far too much from composers. You could just as easily say "Mozart's music is nothing but J.C. Bach with a bit of the Haydn brothers, L. Mozart, J.S. Bach and Schobert thrown in for good measure", because that IS what Mozart's consists of, and it doesn't diminish his legitimacy as a composer in any way.
> 
> Dvorak is just Brahms with some Slavic folk music thrown in for good measure.
> 
> Mahler is just a symphony writing Wagner wannabe!!


You're in good form today !


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## spradlig

I don't hear it. The mood, tempo, and harmonization sound totally different to me. I have to strain to discern the similarity in the pattern of notes in the themes.



TrevRockOne said:


> To me the most obvious Williams theft-er, I mean, homage-was from the 1st mvt of the Tchaikovsky violin concerto for the Han and Leia love theme. The theme in question begins at 0:19 in the Star Wars and at 0:56 in the Tchaik.


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## spradlig

I don't hear it. The mood, tempo, and harmonization sound totally different to me. I have to strain to discern the similarity in the pattern of notes in the themes.

No flames please. I'm just sharing my impression. This site is for fun, and everyone here is entitled to their opinion. Whether or not Williams does steal, the views that we express here will have little effect on his reputation or his bank account.



TrevRockOne said:


> To me the most obvious Williams theft-er, I mean, homage-was from the 1st mvt of the Tchaikovsky violin concerto for the Han and Leia love theme. The theme in question begins at 0:19 in the Star Wars and at 0:56 in the Tchaik.


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## spradlig

I don't think the Faure sounded like Hedwig's theme at all. Can you please pinpoint the place in the Elgar Cello Concerto that is similar (the YouTube clip is over 32 minutes long) to Hedwig's theme?



MozartEarlySymphonies said:


> Personally, I don't think the Faure sounded like Hedwig's Theme, BUT Elgar's Cello Concerto does.


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## Piwikiwi

Almost as bad as John Williams himself are his fans who claim his music is the modern version of classical music


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## scratchgolf

Piwikiwi said:


> Almost as bad as John Williams himself are his fans who claim his music is the modern version of classical music


I'd take that as in insult if I were. Since I'm not, I don't.


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## PetrB

Piwikiwi said:


> Almost as bad as John Williams himself are his fans who claim his music is the modern version of classical music


Bingo! Give that man a cigar!


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## KenOC

Piwikiwi said:


> Almost as bad as John Williams himself are his fans who claim his music is the modern version of classical music


I seem to be in a minority here! IMO John Williams is a fine composer of music entirely suited to its purposes -- and occasionally reducible to effective stand-alone suites. As far as a "modern version" of classical music, it seems to be a direct follow-on to the incidental music written for plays and masques throughout the 19th century and earlier by masters we all respect.


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## PetrB

KenOC said:


> As far as a "modern version" of classical music, it seems to be a direct follow-on to the incidental music written for plays and masques throughout the 19th century and earlier by masters we all respect.


Those earlier works were written in an original and distinguishable personal style -- and were not a laundry-list catalogue of derivatives: there is a big difference between the truly original, while the other is not so very at all.

This leaves Mr. Williams music in the realm of merit on craft, serviceable as secondary support to a film, but nowhere near as original as previous secondary support music from the earlier musical eras. Maybe the two week "write the complete score" deadline of the latter half of the 20th century film industry is to blame; maybe you don't give a fig if music is well written but severely derivative.

About the numero uno criterion in the classical arena is distinctive and non-derivative, regardless of 'style', and that criterion then falls heavy against on anyone whose works sound at all derivative.

I don't think anyone is in doubt the man can compose and orchestrate, but so can others whose names we don't and won't ever know.


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## scratchgolf

While I admit I'm far from the subject matter expert, is it not possible that he was recognized early on for his works, and then proceeded to churn out "Picassos" on name alone? It certainly wouldn't be unprecedented. My knowledge of classical works is far too limited to hear most similarities in his music but I'm not closed minded to any possibilities. However, there has to be a reason that he continuously gets hired to score movies, and not just any movies: blockbusters. This may not make him a great musician but it certainly puts him in high demand.


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## KenOC

PetrB said:


> This leaves Mr. Williams music in the realm of merit on craft, serviceable as secondary support to a film, but nowhere near as original as previous secondary support music from the earlier musical eras.


I think your assessment fails to consider Williams's many truly iconic contributions to music in our time, music that stands apart from the movies (to some extent) and is known by just about everyone. What other film composer, of this or prior eras, can claim the same? "Serviceable" indeed!


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## PetrB

KenOC said:


> I think your assessment fails to consider Williams's many truly iconic contributions to music in our time, music that stands apart from the movies (to some extent) and is known by just about everyone. What other film composer, of this or prior eras, can claim the same? "Serviceable" indeed!


I think we've each made our personal biases clear. I consider that a part of pop culture, and less, than say, the few bars of the Ode To Joy which many in the world recognize -- the source well, too, a fun sci-fi kids epic vs a symphony of different intent, to me makes a difference, to others, "it is all the same,"

Vive la difference.

P.s. ..  but as a parting shot, on the "who else" front, _Ennio Morricone_.


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## PetrB

scratchgolf said:


> Ok, ok. You've convinced me. I'm throwing away my Raiders of the Lost Ark underwear!


They haven't fit you since you were eleven years old, anyway.


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## MozartEarlySymphonies

spradlig said:


> Can you please pinpoint the place in the Elgar Cello Concerto that is similar (the YouTube clip is over 32 minutes long) to Hedwig's theme?


2:00 is the point that sounds like Hedwig's theme. Sorry I forgot to pinpoint it in my original post.


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## PetrB

........ if I get a faster computer, maybe I'll make less unintentional double posts.


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## KenOC

PetrB said:


> P.s. ..  but as a parting shot, on the "who else" front, _Ennio Morricone_.


Agree -- but Morricone's achievements hardly devalue Williams's, or vice versa. Overall, though, I'd put Williams ahead on points, if not on originality.


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## hreichgott

Well, both themes are siciliennes in minor keys. To people who don't listen to a lot of those, they're bound to sound similar. But there the similarity ends.


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## PetrB

KenOC said:


> Agree -- but Morricone's achievements hardly devalue Williams's, or vice versa. Overall, though, I'd put Williams ahead on points, if not on originality.


I'm more interested in a set of qualities, not points on a pop scoreboard (or financial success comparison charts), just in case you haven't noticed.


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## PetrB

A Sicilienne is already an inherently generic form, with known and expected meter, phrase lengths, etc. No one writing one should instantly and patently be considered to be 'stealing.'

If one cared to bother to compare the Faure to the Williams (I'll leave that to those most interested in doing so), what should be looked at are the specific melodic contours, i.e. does Williams consistently go with, or more likely my ears tell me, against, the contours of the Faure? 

Where the Faure goes up, does Williams consistently go down instead? 

Regardless of Williams' harmonic vein, if his Sicilienne is in exact opposition to the up / down directions taken in the Faure,, then there is no question the Faure was consciously his take-off point and direct model. While that is derivative, it is not a crime -- just think of the best-known of Rachmaninov's Paganini variations, a complete inversion of the Paganini tune. 

One difference though, and I think worthy of mention, is the Rachmaninov overtly acknowledges Paganini as the source material, the Williams -- if all my listed device reversals are the case -- does not.

If anyone cares to do this contour analytic, and comes up with a result, I would find that a bit interesting.


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## Guest

Williams gets all this attention because he tends to write scores that are "classical". He's not the only one, of course, that writes in a "classical" style, even if so much of it is synthesised (Hans Zimmer step forward!)

Other composers are more interesting. Carter Burwell and Mychael Danna are two that spring to mind.


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## KenOC

PetrB said:


> I'm more interested in a set of qualities, not points on a pop scoreboard (or financial success comparison charts), just in case you haven't noticed.


Your interests, of course, are very very important. I surely wish ye the joy of them.


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## PetrB

KenOC said:


> Your interests, of course, are very very important. I surely wish ye the joy of them.


Well, whose interests are not "important," LOL.

if not interests, then what motivates any here on TC to make an OP or participate therein ?


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## agglerithm

The problem with Williams' music is that the genre is so limiting. Unless he expands on his movie themes to create more substantial works, he is basically just creating themes that are never developed in any substantial way. 

On the other hand, if a composer like Handel or Beethoven "steals" a theme from another composer, it is of little consequence, since what the composer does with that theme is more important than the origin of the theme. Being able to do something with a theme is what separates good composers from great ones.


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## presto

I still enjoy John Williams film music even if it does sound remarkably like many Classical works, your average film audience probably wouldn't even pick up on this, at the end of the day the music works wonderfully with what's being shown on the big screen.


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## Alfacharger

agglerithm said:


> The problem with Williams' music is that the genre is so limiting. Unless he expands on his movie themes to create more substantial works, he is basically just creating themes that are never developed in any substantial way.


First movement from his Cello Concerto.


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## spradlig

KenOC : I am going to join you in the minority because I agree with you 100%. I am curious: if someone had written music identical to the score of "Star Wars" in the mid-late 1800's, or whatever historical period it fits in best, and packaged it as a symphony, or perhaps written it to accompany a play, would the music be held in higher regard by classical music lovers?



KenOC said:


> I seem to be in a minority here! IMO John Williams is a fine composer of music entirely suited to its purposes -- and occasionally reducible to effective stand-alone suites. As far as a "modern version" of classical music, it seems to be a direct follow-on to the incidental music written for plays and masques throughout the 19th century and earlier by masters we all respect.


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## spradlig

Williams has written a fair amount of concert music (not for movies). If people say that the film genre is too limiting to evaluate Williams as a composer, they can listen to his concert music.



agglerithm said:


> The problem with Williams' music is that the genre is so limiting. Unless he expands on his movie themes to create more substantial works, he is basically just creating themes that are never developed in any substantial way.
> 
> On the other hand, if a composer like Handel or Beethoven "steals" a theme from another composer, it is of little consequence, since what the composer does with that theme is more important than the origin of the theme. Being able to do something with a theme is what separates good composers from great ones.


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## spradlig

Thanks. I just checked it, and I have to say, I cannot detect any similarity at all. Are you sure it is 2:00? The meter is not even similar (the Elgar is some kind of triple meter with each beat split into threes (sorry I don't have a score), Hedwig's theme is something like 6/8 time).

I can understand why people might find Faure's Sicilienne similar to Hedwig's Theme, though I disagree with them. In this case, I cannot find any similarity at all between the two.

Thanks for going to the trouble of posting the clip anyway.



MozartEarlySymphonies said:


> 2:00 is the point that sounds like Hedwig's theme. Sorry I forgot to pinpoint it in my original post.


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## spradlig

The opening of Mahler's Third Symphony sounds pretty similar to the Big Theme from the last movement of Brahms's First Symphony (I think there is more similarity then some of the alleged Williams quotes/cribs/whatever). No one accuses Mahler of stealing from Brahms, and rightly so.

There is a melody in Strauss's _Eine Alpensimphonie_ (sorry for possible misspelling) whose beginning is very similar, maybe even identical, to a melody from a Bruch violin concerto. Strauss does something different with it, and I have never read about anyone accusing Strauss of stealing.


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## Mahlerian

spradlig said:


> The opening of Mahler's Third Symphony sounds pretty similar to the Big Theme from the last movement of Brahms's First Symphony (I think there is more similarity then some of the alleged Williams quotes/cribs/whatever). No one accuses Mahler of stealing from Brahms, and rightly so.


During his career, Mahler was often accused of plagiarism. It was often claimed that his music was nothing more than a hodge-podge of bits of Wagner, Strauss, Beethoven, Mendelssohn, and others crammed together. Racial prejudice played some part here, and he was quite often referred to as "the Meyerbeer of the symphony".

You're right that no one accuses him now, because we hear Mahler's own hand above all in his music.


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## hreichgott

PetrB said:


> If anyone cares to do this contour analytic, and comes up with a result, I would find that a bit interesting.


I don't care to spend all night on it but here's the beginning

FAURE Sicilienne
D up G up Bb up D up G up Bb down A down G up A down D down C up E down D down C up E down D

WILLIAMS Hedwig's Theme
B up E up G down F# down E up B down A down F# down E up G down F# down D# up F down B


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## spradlig

Although I'm a mathematician, I am dubious of the value of this kind of analysis, even though it might be fun. No one has figured out mathematically what makes a good melody, or else we would have computers composing good music all the time (I am pretty sure people actually have programmed computers to compose music, but I doubt it is popular or good). It's pretty much a mystery. I don't think anyone has determined how to mathematically measure how original a melody is. You just have to go by how it sounds. Does it stand on its own, or it a rip-off? Unfortunately, the Faure/Williams comparison sounds different to different people. To me, they sound almost completely different. They're both in the minor mode, both "siciliennes", from what I've heard, with similar tempo and the first three notes. That's about it, in my book. I don't expect to persuade anybody how dissimilar they are: I feel as though I and someone else saw a penguin, I say it's black and white, and the other guy says it's green. What can I say? I do hope I can help persuade people that what makes a melody good or original is largely a mystery and I doubt anyone has quantified it.

Also, consider this: don't we all it agree it would be a huge waste of time to compare the opening of Mahler's Third to the Big Theme from the final movement of Brahms's Fourth, using contours/rising & falling intervals/so forth? Why subject Faure's Sicilienne and Williams's Hedwig's Theme to the same scrutiny?



hreichgott said:


> I don't care to spend all night on it but here's the beginning
> 
> FAURE Sicilienne
> D up G up Bb up D up G up Bb down A down G up A down D down C up E down D down C up E down D
> 
> WILLIAMS Hedwig's Theme
> B up E up G down F# down E up B down A down F# down E up G down F# down D# up F down B


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## MozartEarlySymphonies

scratchgolf said:


> I'm throwing away my Raiders of the Lost Ark underwear!


Speaking of Indy, John Williams also copied the Main Title to the John Wayne western The Comancheros by Elmer Bernstein for the Indiana Jones theme. Its very loose but I still hear some Indy in it.


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## spradlig

I listened to the clip, and while there did seem to be some similarity around the 0:39 and 1:13 points in the clip, I think the similarity is small enough that it could simply be coincidence. I don't understand how one can say "it's very loose" but also state flat-out that Williams copied it.

Even if Williams _did_ copy it (which I doubt), I think the Indiana Jones theme is much better music than the Elmer Bernstein music.



MozartEarlySymphonies said:


> Speaking of Indy, John Williams also copied the Main Title to the John Wayne western The Comancheros by Elmer Bernstein for the Indiana Jones theme. Its very loose but I still hear some Indy in it.


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## MozartEarlySymphonies

spradlig said:


> I listened to the clip, and while there did seem to be some similarity around the 0:39 and 1:13 points in the clip, I think the similarity is small enough that it could simply be coincidence. I don't understand how one can say "it's very loose" but also state flat-out that Williams copied it.
> 
> Even if Williams _did_ copy it (which I doubt), I think the Indiana Jones theme is much better music than the Elmer Bernstein music.


It probably was a coincidence but considering John Williams has a history of stuff like this,





















3:15

I thought else wheres. Plus I apologize that I contradicted myself for saying copied and loosely based. I meant to say borrowed. I thought about it when I posted my comment but forgot about soon afterwords.


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## spradlig

@MozartEarlySymphonies: Thanks, your clips are MUCH, MUCH more convincing than the extremely feeble examples given earlier in this thread, in which people seemed to really be reaching and going out of their way to find similarities between Williams's music and earlier composers when little similarity existed. In my opinion, the Elmer Bernstein comparison falls in this category.

Your first YouTube clip gives some examples where the Williams music is indeed extremely similar to earlier composers'.

The King's Row music does seem quite similar to the Star Wars music, but I think the Star Wars music is a lot better, and Williams shouldn't be blamed for unoriginality if he borrowed something and improved it so much.

I was unable to pin down exactly where the similarity in the Schindler's List and the Vivaldi occurs, since the beginnings sounded different and I didn't have time to listen to the entirety of both clips.

Your first set of clips forces me to concede that Williams has been less than 100% original at times. I don't think that means that we should automatically suspect he is always stealing, and go out of our way to find similarities with others' music when little or none exists. Also note that the most clearly unoriginal bits don't seem to be the highlights or main themes to his scores (with the arguable exception of Star Wars/Kings Row, and I would give him a pass on that, since I like the Star Wars theme much better than the Kings Row theme). I think every score he writes should be judged on its own merits.

This is off-topic, but was anyone else dissatisfied with his music for Star Wars Episodes I-III? The only music that appealed to me as having good, original melodies (not appearing in the original trilogy) was "The Duel of the Fates" from Episode I. And no, it did not remind me of _Carmina Burana_ at all. Maybe his creative juices just weren't flowing. Nobody bats 1.000.



MozartEarlySymphonies said:


> It probably was a coincidence but considering John Williams has a history of stuff like this,
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## BurningDesire

I think film composers are unfairly judged compared to any other kind of composer. Not sound like ANY other composer? Are you serious? You can name pretty much any composer and I could name composers they sound like. Really, if a composer sounds totally original to you, you just haven't heard all the music that influenced them. That being said, unfortunately alot of film music is really bland, and that really makes one notice how derivative it is of the much better music it imitates (or in the case of some composers, such as James Horner, outright quotes).


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## Alfacharger

MozartEarlySymphonies said:


> It probably was a coincidence but considering John Williams has a history of stuff like this,
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Have you heard of the term "temp track" or when a director asks the composer to emulate a piece of music to a scene. One of the most often temp tracks is Strauss' Dawn from Also Sprach Zarathustra. Here are three examples of composers, Goldsmith for the Blue Max, Williams for Superman and North for 2001 (Kubrick used the temp track for his film!).
















All are similar the source. I know that Lucas showed John Williams the opening with Korngold's Kings Row music as a temp track and asked him to emulate it. It is part of the business.


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## BurningDesire

Alfacharger said:


> Have you heard of the term "temp track" or when a director asks the composer to emulate a piece of music to a scene. One of the most often temp tracks is Strauss' Dawn from Also Sprach Zarathustra. Here are three examples of composers, Goldsmith for the Blue Max, Williams for Superman and North for 2001 (Kubrick used the temp track for his film!).
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Its the part of the business called "directors don't respect composers as artists".


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## arpeggio

*Hanson Romatic and ET*



Alfacharger said:


> Have you heard of the term "temp track" or when a director asks the composer to emulate a piece of music to a scene. One of the most often temp tracks is Strauss' Dawn from Also Sprach Zarathustra. Here are three examples of composers, Goldsmith for the Blue Max, Williams for Superman and North for 2001 (Kubrick used the temp track for his film!).
> 
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Thanks for making this point. I vaguely remember reading somewhere that Spielberg used the the Hanson Romantic Symphony as the temp track for the final chase sequence and requested that Williams composes something similar.


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## arpeggio

*Cribbing*

See my post in "Favorite contemporary film composer" Thread: http://www.talkclassical.com/24211-favorite-contemporary-film-composer-3.html#post517908


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## Vaneyes

I don't care for hearing lifts from four different classical music composers in a span of just a few minutes. If one can't score a film any better than that....


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## arpeggio

*Richard Danielpour and Borodin*

Danielpour discusses cribbing in an interview. His opening theme in the Ballet _Anima Mundi_ bears a very strong relationship to Borodin's "In the Steppes of Central Asia."

He discusses that and other famous examples of cribbing.

http://www.angelfire.com/music2/davidbundler/danielpour.html


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## Guest

Directors and their composers want music that will plug straight into their audiences' emotions, or quickly create associations with the familiar. They've got 90 minutes to tell a story and get across what they want to impart: they don't want their audience either marvelling at the soundtrack as if it is the world premiere of an hitherto unknown symphony by Stravinsky, or being put off the emotional thrust of the story by music that heads in completely the wrong direction.

Whether Williams or anyone else "plagiarises" is, so far as I can see, irrelevant, and not a criticism of their craft. I wonder whether the Star Wars soundtrack would have stood on its own without a groundbreaking (but derivative) movie to accompany it?


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## Petwhac

Music for media is not meant to be able to stand alone. It is there to serve, to enhance. 
It is really the antithesis of art or concert music.
The necessary constraints put upon the music and the composer make comparison with concert music inappropriate.
In a movie or TV show, it is the director's vision that is of consequence. In music for the concert hall it is the composer's.

I can't say I heard much similarity between Schindler's List and the Vivaldi, perhaps someone could illuminate. The Schindlers tune is based around a well worn 'circle of fifths' progression which was highly common in Baroque music and ever since. 

The whole reason film music has to be somewhat derivative is that it must be absolutely direct and unequivocal in as universal a sense as possible. Therefore it must be awash with the commonplace 'signifiers' that have been associated with tonal music for centuries. Most obviously and basic is that if you want to make something sad and poignant , you are broadly speaking going to find yourself using minor triads, slow tempi and quieter dynamics etc etc.


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## Flamme




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## PetrB

Petwhac said:


> The whole reason film music has to be somewhat derivative is that it must be absolutely direct and unequivocal in as universal a sense as possible. Therefore it must be awash with the commonplace 'signifiers' that have been associated with tonal music for centuries. Most obviously and basic is that if you want to make something sad and poignant , you are broadly speaking going to find yourself using minor triads, slow tempi and quieter dynamics etc etc.


Exactly. The fact so much of it is derivative seems to annoy those who find it brilliant, want to lump it in with classical, and think it is "new." Wholesale gestures are appropriated from the semiotic well, to immediately sound familiar, have their effect... as also dictates the short snippet, brief length, and all the indirect or more direct cribbing.

What it takes to be a good film score composer requires a phenomenal skill, speed of execution, and a seriously thorough deep familiarity with a great deal of "the rep."

Derivative does not seem to devalue this music for some people, where if you know enough of what the score is derived from, it becomes inadvertently funny, and distracts from the purpose of a film score.

MozartsEarlySymphonies post (No. 81) is replete with comparative clips, and some of what is lifted is cleverly a bit different, but the gesture, and harmony sometimes, is pretty hysterical, considering how close to the bone Williams has gone for materials at times... and whether it is that close to the bone or more generic, that brings in the "ID this music" ala music history 101 for some of us, making "what it is," even within its utility context, hard to appreciate or take very seriously.

But hey, it is film music.


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## Petwhac

Usually the more 'interesting' the music becomes, the more it distracts from the scene and becomes intrusive and therefore quite useless.


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## PetrB

Petwhac said:


> Usually the more 'interesting' the music becomes, the more it distracts from the scene and becomes intrusive and therefore quite useless.


Unless the music is meant to carry the scene (director prerogative -- Bette Davis, asking a director before shooting the final scene, _"Is it me walking up these stairs, or Max Steiner?"_) then otherwise, the best film scores are ones you don't notice


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## PetrB

Flamme said:


>


This needs, naturally, a high quality parody of a John Williams score to run with it.


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## Alfacharger

BurningDesire said:


> Its the part of the business called "directors don't respect composers as artists".


You should take a look at this thread from Film Score Monthly forum. Bear McCreary wrote down some quotes from Elmer Bernstein. I love this one.

Bear McCreary:

"If a filmmaker ever says 'Look, I just don't know enough about music, that's what you're here for,' go to your local church, get on your knees and thank God."

# 13 ElmerWisdom

http://filmscoremonthly.com/board/posts.cfm?forumID=1&pageID=1&threadID=98043&archive=0


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## BurningDesire

Petwhac said:


> Usually the more 'interesting' the music becomes, the more it distracts from the scene and becomes intrusive and therefore quite useless.


People like to make this assertion, but I have never seen it in practice. Jonny Greenwood's brilliant score for There Will Be Blood never distracts from any of the scenes. Ennio Morricone's amazing score for The Good, The Bad, and The Ugly never distracts from any scene. The 19th Century classical/ballet score for Princess Tutu (which uses music by Beethoven, Tchaikovsky, Mussorgsky, Chopin and many others, none of which I'd call uninteresting) never distracts or detracts. When you hear great, interesting music during a good story, it just makes the story even more exciting and enjoyable, because you're experiencing an awesome story AND listening to amazing music that captures that story beautifully.

I find it absurd that having good music is at all a distraction. I've actually been distracted by bad film scores, like James Horner's abysmal score for Avatar, or the hideous and cliche score for Prometheus.


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## PetrB

Alfacharger said:


> You should take a look at this thread from Film Score Monthly forum. Bear McCreary wrote down some quotes from Elmer Bernstein. I love this one.
> 
> "If a filmmaker ever says 'Look, I just don't know enough about music, that's what you're here for,' go to your local church, get on your knees and thank God."


....aaaaaand Amen to that! I've had similar business with theater directors doing musicals and revues of show and cabaret music... twenty five minute long post-rehearsal spiels to finally have it dawn on the musician and singer that what was being asked for was merely a touch more rubato


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## spradlig

Thanks, I was unfamiliar with the "temp track" practice. I don't mean to call you a liar, but can you document how Lucas asked Williams to emulate Korngold's "Kings Row" (thanks for ID'ing the composer as Korngold) or any other such requests, for that matter? They do seem similar, but I much prefer the Star Wars theme. I love some Korngold works (such as the Left Hand Piano Concerto and piano sonatas), but his film scores don't do it for me. I have heard that all or almost all of the themes in his excellent violin concerto are taken from his film scores, but I would guess he may have concentrated the best parts of several hours worth of film music into the concerto.



Alfacharger said:


> Have you heard of the term "temp track" or when a director asks the composer to emulate a piece of music to a scene. One of the most often temp tracks is Strauss' Dawn from Also Sprach Zarathustra. Here are three examples of composers, Goldsmith for the Blue Max, Williams for Superman and North for 2001 (Kubrick used the temp track for his film!).
> 
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> All are similar the source. I know that Lucas showed John Williams the opening with Korngold's Kings Row music as a temp track and asked him to emulate it. It is part of the business.


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## PetrB

BurningDesire said:


> People like to make this assertion, but I have never seen it in practice. Jonny Greenwood's brilliant score for There Will Be Blood never distracts from any of the scenes. Ennio Morricone's amazing score for The Good, The Bad, and The Ugly never distracts from any scene. The 19th Century classical/ballet score for Princess Tutu (which uses music by Beethoven, Tchaikovsky, Mussorgsky, Chopin and many others, none of which I'd call uninteresting) never distracts or detracts. When you hear great, interesting music during a good story, it just makes the story even more exciting and enjoyable, because you're experiencing an awesome story AND listening to amazing music that captures that story beautifully.
> 
> I find it absurd that having good music is at all a distraction. I've actually been distracted by bad film scores, like James Horner's abysmal score for Avatar, or the hideous and cliche score for Prometheus.


Appropriate is the word you're after, I think. The instances you are talking about can support, or need support or 'amplification' of the action... it only interferes if it is inappropriate, by dynamic scale, or the nature of the music itself. I don't think any musician can totally ignore or be unaware of even the most subtle of film scoring, just like an actor cannot watch any film without being aware of "acting."

Nyman's score for the piano struck me, large or small, quiet or more in the foreground, as utterly inappropriate to the film... had to work at ignoring / dismissing it so it did not get in the way of the story. I'm sure someone else thought it "perfect."


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## spradlig

PetrB : from your posts in this thread, I have gathered that you don't care much for John Williams's film music and you that you find it unoriginal. I have learned a lot from your other posts in this forum, and I am curious: what film composers _do_ you like?



PetrB said:


> Exactly. The fact so much of it is derivative seems to annoy those who find it brilliant, want to lump it in with classical, and think it is "new." Wholesale gestures are appropriated from the semiotic well, to immediately sound familiar, have their affect... as also dictates the short snippet, brief length, and all the indirect or more direct cribbing.
> 
> What it takes to be a good film score composer requires a phenomenal skill, speed of execution, and a seriously thorough deep familiarity with a great deal of "the rep."
> 
> Derivative does not seem to devalue this music for some people, where if you know enough of what the score is derived from, it becomes inadvertently funny, and distracts from the purpose of a film score.
> 
> MozartsEarlySymphonies post (No. 81) is replete with comparative clips, and some of what is lifted is cleverly a bit different, but the gesture, and harmony sometimes, is pretty hysterical, considering how close to the bone Williams has gone for materials at times... and whether it is that close to the bone or more generic, that brings in the "ID this music" ala music history 101 for some of us, making "what it is," even within its utility context, hard to appreciate or take very seriously.
> 
> But hey, it is film music.


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## PetrB

spradlig said:


> Thanks, I was unfamiliar with the "temp track" practice. I don't mean to call you a liar, but can you document how Lucas asked Williams to emulate Korngold's "Kings Row" (thanks for ID'ing the composer as Korngold) or any other such requests, for that matter? They do seem similar, but I much prefer the Star Wars theme. I love some Korngold works (such as the Left Hand Piano Concerto and piano sonatas), but his film scores don't do it for me. I have heard that all or almost all of the themes in his excellent violin concerto are taken from his film scores, but I would guess he may have concentrated the best parts of several hours worth of film music into the concerto.


One of the most famous of these has long outlasted the film for which it was written.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warsaw_Concerto
The commission / job / charge was to make something as derivative of Rachmaninoff as possible


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## Cheyenne

I once heard from a film student that his teacher used that clip to illustrate cutting a scene to music. Mr. Morricone had the advantage of initially being very limited in the range of instruments and size of the ensemble available for his scores. He had to experiment with unconventional instruments, whistling and those sorts of things; it makes his music appreciably more interesting if only because it is so much more original.

For the modern Hollywood soundtrack I have no sympathy whatsoever, and that includes those of Mr. Williams.


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## Alfacharger

spradlig said:


> Thanks, I was unfamiliar with the "temp track" practice. I don't mean to call you a liar, but can you document how Lucas asked Williams to emulate Korngold's "Kings Row" (thanks for ID'ing the composer as Korngold) or any other such requests, for that matter? They do seem similar, but I much prefer the Star Wars theme. I love some Korngold works (such as the Left Hand Piano Concerto and piano sonatas), but his film scores don't do it for me. I have heard that all or almost all of the themes in his excellent violin concerto are taken from his film scores, but I would guess he may have concentrated the best parts of several hours worth of film music into the concerto.


It has been mentioned in various articles about the Star Wars score. (See quote below). It could be horse hockey!!!

"Does the music sound familiar to you? Maybe that's because George Lucas, after using the Kings Row score as a temp track during Star Wars post-production, fell in love with the music and requested that John Williams draw inspiration for his score for Korngold's."

http://classicalconditioning.wordpr...ening-suite-from-kings-row-by-erich-korngold/

http://www.moongadget.com/origins/music.html

http://www.thetutorpages.com/tutor-...tive-borrowing-in-the-score-of-star-wars/4260


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## Tristan

Sorry, can't agree with that. I know why you're saying it; they have a similar pattern, but Williams didn't rip off of Faure. Some tunes are bound to be similar; and in this case they are in no way the "same". If you want "same", check out "The Music of the Night" vs. "Quello Che Tacete" by Puccini. Those are actually identical in one spot. This doesn't come close to that.


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## spradlig

Thanks. It appears that using the "temp track" idea, one can compose good, completely original music that just has a similar mood, or borrow/steal and create unoriginal music with no value added to the music one is imitating. Some of the comparisons between Williams and others in the links you give are quite feeble: e.g., I cannot detect any similarity between Holst's "Mars, the Bringer of War" and anything in any of the Star Wars films.



Alfacharger said:


> It has been mentioned in various articles about the Star Wars score. (See quote below). It could be horse hockey!!!
> 
> "Does the music sound familiar to you? Maybe that's because George Lucas, after using the Kings Row score as a temp track during Star Wars post-production, fell in love with the music and requested that John Williams draw inspiration for his score for Korngold's."
> 
> http://classicalconditioning.wordpr...ening-suite-from-kings-row-by-erich-korngold/
> 
> http://www.moongadget.com/origins/music.html
> 
> http://www.thetutorpages.com/tutor-...tive-borrowing-in-the-score-of-star-wars/4260


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## spradlig

I have read about the "Warsaw Concerto" but never actually heard it, in thousands of hours of classical radio listening over several decades. Does anyone actually play it anymore? Has it really outlasted the film?



PetrB said:


> One of the most famous of these has long outlasted the film for which it was written.
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warsaw_Concerto
> The commission / job / charge was to make something as derivative of Rachmaninoff as possible


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## Petwhac

BurningDesire said:


> People like to make this assertion, but I have never seen it in practice. Jonny Greenwood's brilliant score for There Will Be Blood never distracts from any of the scenes. Ennio Morricone's amazing score for The Good, The Bad, and The Ugly never distracts from any scene. The 19th Century classical/ballet score for Princess Tutu (which uses music by Beethoven, Tchaikovsky, Mussorgsky, Chopin and many others, none of which I'd call uninteresting) never distracts or detracts. When you hear great, interesting music during a good story, it just makes the story even more exciting and enjoyable, because you're experiencing an awesome story AND listening to amazing music that captures that story beautifully.
> 
> I find it absurd that having good music is at all a distraction. I've actually been distracted by bad film scores, like James Horner's abysmal score for Avatar, or the hideous and cliche score for Prometheus.


Ballet is an entirely different animal. It is music driven and the choreography is usually an interpretation of it.

I haven't said that there are no examples of effective and interesting film music. Mostly, however, such music doesn't translate well to the concert hall.

The Sergio Leone westerns are atmospheric and quite sparse in dialogue so there is great scope for music to play a key role. Morricone's music, however 'original' as a film score, is not particularly original as 'absolute' music in the classical tradition. 
Most of his beautiful score for 'Once Upon A Time In America' could have been written in the 19th C.

Film music does 'atmosphere' very well. Concert music is usually expected to provide a little more than that.

The best that can be done is for the film composer to work up some of the material into a concert suite and when someone like Mr Williams does so, one finds that it is music which is not so far away from Holst, R.Strauss and others 100 years older.

I am not denigrating the art of the film composer, I have written to picture myself and have first hand knowledge of the conflict between music which has a life of it's own and music which serves the film.

Film music is derivative. It cannot be otherwise.


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## PetrB

spradlig said:


> I am curious: what film composers _do_ you like?


Short answer? I hardly like any of it, and have only ever owned and repeatedly played three film score recordings (Fellini / Nina Rota: _Giulietta degli spiriti / Satyricon_). The third, the incidental music for a film, stage to concert suite, Prokofiev, _Lieutenant Kije_. Not a big fan at all, not a consumer. Below are a number of my _personal_ reasons why (the looong answer.)

Without saying I am making a peremptory disclaimer, I should qualify 'me and film music,' i.e. from early childhood on, I seem to entirely lack that trip switch or chip where music suggests a story, a literal narrative, describes a scene or a _specific_ emotion. I would be clueless as to what to compose under an action or love scene, at least without relying upon the most cliche of cliches already in place. (I might have a better chance in attempting a ballet score, story ballet or other, the kinetic there something I feel more connected to than the literal.)

To me, the best of film music is still "incidental," and from the advent of Hollywood and the film score as there defined, that is no longer a time or place from which to expect a Beethoven _Egmont / Creatures of Prometheus_, a Grieg _Peer Gynt Suite_, a Prokofiev _Alexander Nevsky_ or _Lieutenant Kije_, or much "original" music of any sort. The day when a straight ahead classical composer writes a film score in which the director pretty much leaves the composer to do their thing is nigh well completely over. (Tan Dun winning an academy award is quite a later exception, as is the employment of John Corigliano to score _The Red Violin_.)

Really, only a few of the older school scores come to mind:

Bernard Herrmann ~ (Hitchcock, _Vertigo / North by Northwest_: Don Chaffey with Ray Harryhausen, _Jason and the Argonauts_. etc. )

Nina Rota ~ any of the films he scored for Fellini, whether his own music or that wonderful array of other music he selected for use, or especially the ethnic musics he used along with some of his scoring in Satyricon, that the only film score recording other than the Prokofiev Lieutenant Kije Suite that I've ever owned and played repeatedly -- of musicals, I've never owned any, just not my cuppa.)

Ennio Morricone ~ All the Sergio Leone spaghetti westerns / The Mission ("robbed" of an academy award on that one 

Dmitri Tiomkin is a case apart, and if before your time, the films as well as the music, I'd urge a further investigation
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dimitri_Tiomkin
While Erich Wolfgang Korngold is often credited with the late romantic big orchestral hollywood sound, Tiomkin is at least the other half of that equation: he wrote brilliantly good and appropriate music for films. Korngold, a true late romantic classical composer, quickly became self-consuming and a parody of his own late romantic style, and that is the other "classic" hollywood sound.

Marice Jarre (Witness, a.o) wrote some lovely music for films, and often again it was more than appropriate.

More remote from my regular taste, David Raksin's score for the Otto Preminger film noir, _Laura_ is I think readily enjoyed and easily admired, another great instance of highly appropriate to the task at hand.

Though John Williams is highly skilled, he is also just as often highly derivative, and I can not easily turn off that element of "ID the composer, period or style" that I get from many a film score. That means I have to shut most of them off to enjoy the film. If you're less conscious of all the derivatives, the easier it is to take it for what it is and let it roll with the film. With Williams, I am highly aware most of the time of the derivatives, so that is the fire extinguisher on any flames of enthusiasm I might otherwise have been able to have there. I can not help knowing the repertoire I know, or what my musical memory makes of it. Top that off with my gut reaction to what he does do often as flat-out _corny_, and there ya go, I'm off that wagon.

The opening theme music of Bernard Hermann's score to _North by Northwest_ is extremely 'catchy,' 'neat,' the opening theme of _Vertigo_ is not earth-shatteringly ground-breaking music: in each score, the vocabulary holds its own without making you think directly of other composers or pieces -- Williams' scores do, almost all the time.

I have not found anything at all one could call appropriate in any Michael Nyman film score, "The Piano" the most inappropriate of them all.

James Horner's cribs are too often near direct quotes that I find his scores even more distracting, or downright irritating. Duddle-eee-uuuu, running under the film and _WHAM_ a near direct crib from Britten's _War Requiem_ directly making me recall if not the entire piece, at least the section from which the crib was taken. Huge spoiler in the continuity of supposedly following the storyline.

A suite extracted from a musical made into a film is not a suite from a "film score." I would think that plain enough, but others see that differently.

None of a film's music, an exception being a 'theme song, (i.e an actual song) is usually meant to stand on its own, some scenes are, as per director's intent, meant to be carried by the music (Harry Potter's flight on the Hippogriff): many a suite from a film is thought to be stand-alone, but try it sometime if you have no familiarity with the film and you be the judge. (The constant repetition of the themes in many a film score concert suite are a far cry from the repetitions in, say, Bruckner.) I'm nearly certain for those who have the chip, those film scores and film score suites are props and prompts, "Oh, this is the scene where..." Since I don't get it that way, I'm left out, as it were.

I have if not a major distrust, a near aversion to what others find "catchy," catchy is the near earworm sought after in commercials, a very different kind of hook than a classical sort of catchy, more what is often disparagingly called "bubble gum music."

Many of the good and great film scores which are so linked with a film and have become Iconic are readily iconic because they are so highly derivative, and uh, well, "Catchy." [Imagine having a plate of just O.K. food in front of you while getting a whiff of something much more attractive to you, then sit and continue to eat that O.K. food.] Even if it is quite well-done, and enjoyed by many, so much is past music referential or imitative that it does not hold my interest: it too often reminds me of something else that it distracts, the distraction a strong hunger to hear "the original" and not the derivative.

Apologies for going on at even more than usual lengthy length, but you would ask


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## PetrB

Cheyenne said:


> For the modern Hollywood soundtrack I have no sympathy whatsoever, and that includes those of Mr. Williams.


I was going to go there, but thought it not worth the rain of contumely or a near press-gang arranged crucifixion.

Heartfelt and brave...Brava!


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## scratchgolf

Petr. Well said and completely understandable. My unfamiliarity with some of these pieces, coupled with that nasty little thing called nostalgia, make the Star Wars soundtrack a much different experience for me. I read earlier where you said you wish you could discover the music again, or something to that effect. Very similar to the beginnings of a new relationship. I'm in that period of discovery and I wouldn't trade it for the world. This is the reason I enjoy this community so much. Very intelligent people who actually take the time to explain. Just be careful with long posts. You may run out of internet ink.


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## Alfacharger

PetrB said:


> James Horner's cribs are too often near direct quotes that I find his scores even more distracting, or downright irritating. Duddle-eee-uuuu, running under the film and _WHAM_ a near direct crib from Britten's _War Requiem_ directly making me recall if not the entire piece, at least the section from which the crib was taken. Huge spoiler in the continuity of supposedly following the storyline.


I wonder if James had lessons with Peter Schickele!!!!


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## arpeggio

*#7*



Alfacharger said:


> You should take a look at this thread from Film Score Monthly forum. Bear McCreary wrote down some quotes from Elmer Bernstein. I love this one.
> 
> Bear McCreary:
> 
> "If a filmmaker ever says 'Look, I just don't know enough about music, that's what you're here for,' go to your local church, get on your knees and thank God."
> 
> # 13 ElmerWisdom
> 
> http://filmscoremonthly.com/board/posts.cfm?forumID=1&pageID=1&threadID=98043&archive=0


I love #7: "People look down on you when you criticize or belittle others. Don't do it."


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## arpeggio

*temp traks*



spradlig said:


> Thanks, I was unfamiliar with the "temp track" practice. I don't mean to call you a liar, but can you document how Lucas asked Williams to emulate Korngold's "Kings Row" (thanks for ID'ing the composer as Korngold) or any other such requests, for that matter? They do seem similar, but I much prefer the Star Wars theme. I love some Korngold works (such as the Left Hand Piano Concerto and piano sonatas), but his film scores don't do it for me. I have heard that all or almost all of the themes in his excellent violin concerto are taken from his film scores, but I would guess he may have concentrated the best parts of several hours worth of film music into the concerto.


See for defination of "temp traks": http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temp_track

I found the attached pdf article concerning the sound tracks to _Star Wars_. On page six it discusses what temp tracks were employed.

View attachment starwars.pdf


The article describes what it is like to score a film. For example:

"Long-time working partner, Herbert W. Spencer, performed the orchestrations by converting Williams' multi-stave manuscripts into music sheets for each member of the orchestra. Due to the huge scope of the score, some 88 minutes, Arthur Morton, Angela Morley, Al Woodbury, Alexander Courage and Williams himself assisted in this time-consuming and exacting task. The completed score totalled some 800 pages of sheet music of which around two-thirds were orchestrated by Herbert Spencer, who received contractual credit for the work."
(from page seven of article)


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## BurningDesire

Cheyenne said:


> I once heard from a film student that his teacher used that clip to illustrate cutting a scene to music. Mr. Morricone had the advantage of initially being very limited in the range of instruments and size of the ensemble available for his scores. He had to experiment with unconventional instruments, whistling and those sorts of things; it makes his music appreciably more interesting if only because it is so much more original.
> 
> For the modern Hollywood soundtrack I have no sympathy whatsoever, and that includes those of Mr. Williams.


I'm pretty much there with you. Everything is so homogenized. No imagination employed whatsoever by many of these composers.


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## BurningDesire

Petwhac said:


> Ballet is an entirely different animal. It is music driven and the choreography is usually an interpretation of it.
> 
> I haven't said that there are no examples of effective and interesting film music. Mostly, however, such music doesn't translate well to the concert hall.
> 
> The Sergio Leone westerns are atmospheric and quite sparse in dialogue so there is great scope for music to play a key role. Morricone's music, however 'original' as a film score, is not particularly original as 'absolute' music in the classical tradition.
> Most of his beautiful score for 'Once Upon A Time In America' could have been written in the 19th C.
> 
> Film music does 'atmosphere' very well. Concert music is usually expected to provide a little more than that.
> 
> The best that can be done is for the film composer to work up some of the material into a concert suite and when someone like Mr Williams does so, one finds that it is music which is not so far away from Holst, R.Strauss and others 100 years older.
> 
> I am not denigrating the art of the film composer, I have written to picture myself and have first hand knowledge of the conflict between music which has a life of it's own and music which serves the film.
> 
> Film music is derivative. It cannot be otherwise.


All music is derivative. Bach was derivative. Beethoven was derivative. Stravinsky was derivative. John Coltrane was derivative. The Beatles were derivative.

Music can have a life of its own and serve visual media. There are film scores that sound great without being at all attached to a film, such as Morricone's, and some of Elfman's. Music that is good, that is effective music, is going to do a far better job of serving the film than music that bland and uninspired. A bland score that just generically conjures up the images on screen can get the job done, but its C-grade material, bare bones, doesn't really do anything beyond the most basic emotion heightening, whereas when a film has great music to work with, and utilizes it in an effective way, it is an amazing experience. Its collaboration. The music and the visuals work together to create something incredible. Music that is just a dismal slave to the film does the film no favors.


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## PetrB

BurningDesire said:


> All music is derivative. Bach was derivative. Beethoven was derivative. Stravinsky was derivative. John Coltrane was derivative. The Beatles were derivative.


You may as well haul out the timeless cliches, 
"Nothing is original." 
...and that other,
"There is nothing new under the sun."

_*SoWellYesBut...*_

There is a derivative where it is undeniable you are working with and upon what went before, but making something new enough of it that it does not prompt such a strong memory in the listener of "what went before" to want to instead hear that from which it was derived.

Ergo, the difference between a ton of very directly reference based film scores or something more "original."


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## Petwhac

BurningDesire said:


> Music can have a life of its own and serve visual media. There are film scores that sound great without being at all attached to a film, such as Morricone's, and some of Elfman's.


When I said there was a conflict between music having a life of it's own and having to serve something else, I didn't mean that film music could not be enjoyed without the film.

I meant this:

When asked to score to picture all a composer can do is produce episodic, moment to moment 'moods'. Perhaps a 40 second long cue that creates a feeling of menace or one of rousing heroism followed soon after by 4 minutes of underscore over which there is dialogue and sound effects. Then at the editing stage the 'menace' cue is cut by 8 seconds, the underscore is partially repeated and faded out etc. All completely out of the hands of the composer.

When writing for the concert hall, everything that happens in the piece is dictated by the internal logic of it. The structure, the form, the key relationships (if it has keys) where and when there is a climax etc. It's all completely in the hands of the composer.

This doesn't mean that the film score cannot be enjoyed or cannot have imagination and beauty but it can *not* be approached in the same way as concert music, by the composer that is. Listeners are, of course, free to enjoy whatever they want however they want.


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## spradlig

Thank you. I browsed it and will read it when I have more time. I am curious about the prequel trilogy. Of course the films were terrible. I thought the scores of the prequel trilogy were very weak except for "The Duel of the Fates" and whatever music was recycled from the original trilogy.

Usual disclaimer: my opinion about the quality of the scores of the prequels is largely personal taste. My view of the quality of the prequel films themselves is harder to dispute!



arpeggio said:


> See for defination of "temp traks": http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temp_track
> 
> I found the attached pdf article concerning the sound tracks to _Star Wars_. On page six it discusses what temp tracks were employed.
> 
> View attachment 30076
> 
> 
> The article describes what it is like to score a film. For example:
> 
> "Long-time working partner, Herbert W. Spencer, performed the orchestrations by converting Williams' multi-stave manuscripts into music sheets for each member of the orchestra. Due to the huge scope of the score, some 88 minutes, Arthur Morton, Angela Morley, Al Woodbury, Alexander Courage and Williams himself assisted in this time-consuming and exacting task. The completed score totalled some 800 pages of sheet music of which around two-thirds were orchestrated by Herbert Spencer, who received contractual credit for the work."
> (from page seven of article)


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## spradlig

As you undoubtedly know, Prokofiev wrote music for the film _Lieutenant Kije_, from which he formed a fairly long suite, which I think is universally regarded as great music (I love it). This seems to contradict your argument.

I admit I cannot think of many similar examples.



Petwhac said:


> When I said there was a conflict between music having a life of it's own and having to serve something else, I didn't mean that film music could not be enjoyed without the film.
> 
> I meant this:
> 
> When asked to score to picture all a composer can do is produce episodic, moment to moment 'moods'. Perhaps a 40 second long cue that creates a feeling of menace or one of rousing heroism followed soon after by 4 minutes of underscore over which there is dialogue and sound effects. Then at the editing stage the 'menace' cue is cut by 8 seconds, the underscore is partially repeated and faded out etc. All completely out of the hands of the composer.
> 
> When writing for the concert hall, everything that happens in the piece is dictated by the internal logic of it. The structure, the form, the key relationships (if it has keys) where and when there is a climax etc. It's all completely in the hands of the composer.
> 
> This doesn't mean that the film score cannot be enjoyed or cannot have imagination and beauty but it can *not* be approached in the same way as concert music, by the composer that is. Listeners are, of course, free to enjoy whatever they want however they want.


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## GodNickSatan

spradlig said:


> Thank you. I browsed it and will read it when I have more time. I am curious about the prequel trilogy. Of course the films were terrible. I thought the scores of the prequel trilogy were very weak except for "The Duel of the Fates" and whatever music was recycled from the original trilogy.
> 
> Usual disclaimer: my opinion about the quality of the scores of the prequels is largely personal taste. My view of the quality of the prequel films themselves is harder to dispute!


I love the scores for the prequel trilogy! I feel like the music gets pretty under-appreciated because the films are mostly disliked. Personally I like the movies as well, but not over the original trilogy.


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## Guest

BurningDesire said:


> There are film scores that sound great without being at all attached to a film


Yes and no. I doubt that any score is ever released exactly as it is heard during the movie (for reasons that Petwhac has just explained.)

And they may sound 'great', but they are not as 'great' as when they are attached to the movie. I wonder how many 'great' soundtracks there are that belong to lousy movies?


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## Petwhac

spradlig said:


> As you undoubtedly know, Prokofiev wrote music for the film _Lieutenant Kije_, from which he formed a fairly long suite, which I think is universally regarded as great music (I love it). This seems to contradict your argument.
> 
> I admit I cannot think of many similar examples.


Vaughan Williams made a symphony out of material he wrote for the film Scott Of The Antarctic. Sinfonia Antarctica. Can't say I know the film though I've heard the symphony. 
Walton also wrote for film, some Oscar nominated. See the quote below especially the last sentence.

[ from Wiki]

_Walton wrote little incidental music for the theatre, his music for Macbeth (1942) being among the exceptions. For the cinema he wrote the music for 13 films between 1934 and 1969. He arranged the Spitfire Prelude and Fugue from his own score for The First of the Few (1942), and he allowed suites to be arranged from his Shakespeare film scores of the 1940s and 1950s. In these films, Walton mixed Elizabethan pastiche with wholly characteristic Waltonian music. Kennedy singles out for praise the Agincourt battle sequence in Henry V, where Walton's music makes the charge of the French knights "fearsomely real."[4] Despite Walton's view that film music is ineffective when performed out of context, suites from several more of his film scores have been put together since his death.[10]_

By and large, concert composers have not gone in for film scoring for the reasons I outlined earlier. There are as always, exceptions to that statement.

Beethoven and Mendelssohn wrote incidental music for plays: Egmont, Midsummer Night's Dream etc. The overture is one place where the composer can come to the fore as is the opening or closing titles of a film.


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## PetrB

spradlig said:


> As you undoubtedly know, Prokofiev wrote music for the film _Lieutenant Kije_, from which he formed a fairly long suite, which I think is universally regarded as great music (I love it). This seems to contradict your argument.
> 
> I admit I cannot think of many similar examples.


This is why you cannot think of many other like examples.

"...from the advent of Hollywood and the film score as there defined, that is no longer a time or place from which to expect a Beethoven Egmont / Creatures of Prometheus, a Grieg Peer Gynt Suite, a Prokofiev Alexander Nevsky or Lieutenant Kije, or much "original" music of any sort. The day when a straight ahead classical composer writes a film score in which the director pretty much leaves the composer to do their thing is nigh well completely over. (Tan Dun winning an academy award is quite a later exception, as is the employment of John Corigliano to score The Red Violin.)"


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## Guest

I wonder at the reason why some TCers seem keen to justify film score composers (and film scores themselves) as 'serious' composers/compositions. If a film composer wants to be taken 'seriously' by the discerning classical audience, presumably, they'll try writing 'serious' compositions.

(Go on...there's plenty to get stuck into there..."What do you mean by 'discerning', 'serious', 'classical'" etc etc etc)

It's another facet of the 'define great beyond mere personal preference' debate: mostly a fruitless affair, though that doesn't stop us eating a diet without fruit!


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## Alfacharger

MacLeod said:


> Yes and no. I doubt that any score is ever released exactly as it is heard during the movie (for reasons that Petwhac has just explained.)
> 
> And they may sound 'great', but they are not as 'great' as when they are attached to the movie. *I wonder how many 'great' soundtracks there are that belong to lousy movies?*


I'll give you a few examples.


























I'll add one more, not a bad film, but something I really like.


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## Petwhac

MacLeod said:


> I wonder at the reason why some TCers seem keen to justify film score composers (and film scores themselves) as 'serious' composers/compositions. If a film composer wants to be taken 'seriously' by the discerning classical audience, presumably, they'll try writing 'serious' compositions.
> 
> (Go on...there's plenty to get stuck into there..."What do you mean by 'discerning', 'serious', 'classical'" etc etc etc)
> 
> It's another facet of the 'define great beyond mere personal preference' debate: mostly a fruitless affair, though that doesn't stop us eating a diet without fruit!


There is the danger of opening a whole CAN OF WORMS here!!

In a nutshell.

The 'serious' 'classical' composers of the 20th century by and large have avoided the musical vocabulary that would allow them to write appropriate music for film. IE. Triadic tonality.

Yes, yes, yes, I know all about Ligeti and Pendy being used to great effect in 2001. No doubt there are a number of similar examples that can be cited. However, *by and large* directors and audiences would not feel that some typical Ferneyhough or Boulez or any number of other composers, would adequately heighten or portray the very _specific_ emotions that the film composer is required to portray.

Maxwell Davies, the well known British modernist, adapted some of Sandy Wilson's music for Ken Russell's excellent 'The Boyfriend'. He also supplied some of his own music and it is of course nothing like his 'serious' 'concert' music.


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## Petwhac

Alfacharger said:


> I'll give you a few examples.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'll add one more, not a bad film, but something I really like.


The first clip was ordinary and not at all original musically.

The second clip? As one of the comments on the page suggests, listen to Ravel's La Valse. The Goldsmith is about as good an example of 'derivative' as you could find.

Haven't listened to the rest.


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## Art Rock

Petwhac said:


> The 'serious' 'classical' composers of the 20th century by and large have avoided the musical vocabulary that would allow them to write appropriate music for film. IE. Triadic tonality.


Shostakovich, Prokofiev, Schnittke, Takemitsu, Alwyn, Arnold, Walton, to name a few, were not 'serious' 'classical' composers of the 20th century?


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## Guest

Art Rock said:


> Shostakovich, Prokofiev, Schnittke, Takemitsu, Alwyn, Arnold, Walton, to name a few, were not 'serious' 'classical' composers of the 20th century?


And that's where wires get crossed. "Serious composers" who have composed for cinema may or may not argue that their soundtracks are of the same level of "seriousness" as their quartets, symphonies, operas, ballets etc etc. But I suggest that they would themselves be aware of the different purpose of music for film, and the potential difference in 'quality'...or at least, the perception of a difference in quality or seriousness!

This is getting somewhat convoluted, isn't it? I blame the apologists for John Williams who want him to be taken seriously as a composer on the strength of his film scores. I'd stop worrying about 'serious' and accept his work for what it is, and for their enjoyment of it. Who cares if PetrB thinks Nyman's score for _The Piano _is no good? I love it, but I'm not going to use it as an example of why Nyman must be taken seriously as a composer!


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## PetrB

Art Rock said:


> Shostakovich, Prokofiev, Schnittke, Takemitsu, Alwyn, Arnold, Walton, to name a few, were not 'serious' 'classical' composers of the 20th century?


A drop in the ocean of then to now film scores. Takemitsu loved the movies, wrote very appropriately for them, just check out Kurosawa's _Kagemusha_, for example... oh, yeah, not exactly that film score recording the world clamors for like the Star Wars recordings, eh? LOL.


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## PetrB

Alfacharger said:


> I'll give you a few examples.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'll add one more, not a bad film, but something I really like.


LOL. Checked them all, sound to me like a "Smile and say Cheeeeeese" collection of clips.

They are professional, very well-crafted, but about as distinctive or memorable as a bowl of soup du jour from the studio's lunchroom.


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## Petwhac

There's a story, I don't know where I read it or if it's true....

Stravinsky, hearing that doing movie scores paid very well went to meet Louis B Mayer.

Mayer: "They tell me you're the worlds greatest living composer"

Strav: Yes

M: "What would you charge to write a score for one of my pictures?"
( Stravinsky thinks of an astronomical fee and Mayer agrees without so much as a blink ( I can't remember the sum).

M: "How long would it take you to write an hours worth of original music?"

Strav: "A year".

[ Most film composers get a matter of weeks to do the job and have to farm out a short score or even a piano score to a team of orchestrators, something that Strav would have hated to do.]


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## Mahlerian

Schoenberg almost ended up scoring a movie. Even after he demanded that all the actors recite their lines rhythmically, he was still in consideration. Of course, like Stravinsky (who lived a few blocks away, though they never talked), he ended up wanting too much creative control over the result.

If he had actually scored a film, I imagine he would have turned in neo-tonal music along the lines of his Suite for String Orchestra or his Variations for Band, not among his best works...


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## Yardrax

The Stravinsky/Mayer story as related by Rozsa:

"I hear you are the greatest composer in the world," said Mayer. Stravinsky bowed.

"Well, this is the greatest movie studio in the world." Stravinsky bowed again.

To prove his point Mayer demonstrated the battery of technological wonders he had installed in his enormous desk.

"How much will you charge for a music score?" he finally asked.

"How long is it?" asked Stravinsky.

"Say 45 minutes."

Stravinsky did a mental calculation of the amount of work that had gone into Petrushka and The Rite of Spring, compositions of the desired length, and said, "$25,000."

"That's a lot of money Stravinsky," said Mayer, "much more than we normally pay, but since you're the greatest composer in the world, you shall have it. Now, when can I have the score?"

"In about one year," said Stravinsky.

Mayer stared at him in disbelief. "Good day Mr Stravinsky," he said.

In the same source I got the above from, it is claimed that Stravinsky, as a consequence of rejecting the idea that music expressed anything, similarly rejected the idea that music should subservient to the mood of a film, claiming that music and imagery were separated fields with their own internal laws of motion. Given that attitude I find it difficult to imagine Stravinsky having much luck on the appropriateness front.


----------



## BurningDesire

People should really stop making the distinction of "serious music" and "serious composers". Its really pretentious. Music isn't serious because its written in a particular idiom or tradition or style.


----------



## arpeggio

Petwhac said:


> There's a story, I don't know where I read it or if it's true....
> 
> Stravinsky, hearing that doing movie scores paid very well went to meet Louis B Mayer.
> 
> Mayer: "They tell me you're the worlds greatest living composer"
> 
> Strav: Yes
> 
> M: "What would you charge to write a score for one of my pictures?"
> ( Stravinsky thinks of an astronomical fee and Mayer agrees without so much as a blink ( I can't remember the sum).
> 
> M: "How long would it take you to write an hours worth of original music?"
> 
> Strav: "A year".
> 
> [ Most film composers get a matter of weeks to do the job and have to farm out a short score or even a piano score to a team of orchestrators, something that Strav would have hated to do.]


I can confirm the story. I heard it in an interview with Previn.


----------



## Guest

BurningDesire said:


> People should really stop making the distinction of "serious music" and "serious composers". Its really pretentious. Music isn't serious because its written in a particular idiom or tradition or style.


I agree! That's why, when referring to "serious" I've always put it in scare quotes (except when I got bored and didn't!)


----------



## arpeggio

*Copland*

Copland made some significant contributions to film.

I thought I heard that Copland once said that composing film music was 10% inspiration and 90% algebra. Can anyone confirm if this is true?


----------



## Alfacharger

arpeggio said:


> Copland made some significant contributions to film.
> 
> I thought I heard that Copland once said that composing film music was 10% inspiration and 90% algebra. Can anyone confirm if this is true?


Here is a quote from Ralph Vaughan Williams...

Film composing is a splendid discipline, and I recommend a course of it to all composition teachers whose pupils are apt to be dawdling in their ideas, or whose every bar is sacred and must not be cut or altered.

http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Ralph_Vaughan_Williams


----------



## PetrB

BurningDesire said:


> People should really stop making the distinction of "serious music" and "serious composers". Its really pretentious. Music isn't serious because its written in a particular idiom or tradition or style.


I'll make no apology, since I'm more than personally convinced sets of criteria are necessary unless you are going to dump all concern with quality altogether. There are at least the two kinds of music Duke Ellington is famous for defining, "good music, and the other kind."

Earnest vs. Frivolous, and grades thereof is a perfectly good alternate set of criteria. Even then, one can have fully earnest "light" music, completely well-fulfilling its intent.

Dumping any way to discern is more than a terrible proposal. If you don't want a work judged, no matter what, don't make it public.


----------



## Alfacharger

Mahlerian said:


> Schoenberg almost ended up scoring a movie. Even after he demanded that all the actors recite their lines rhythmically, he was still in consideration. Of course, like Stravinsky (who lived a few blocks away, though they never talked), he ended up wanting too much creative control over the result.
> 
> If he had actually scored a film, I imagine he would have turned in neo-tonal music along the lines of his Suite for String Orchestra or his Variations for Band, not among his best works...


He did write a piece called "Accompaniment to a Film-Scene".






Also some sketches he did for "The Good Earth".


----------



## Mahlerian

Alfacharger said:


> He did write a piece called "Accompaniment to a Film-Scene".
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Also some sketches he did for "The Good Earth".


I know "Begleitungsmusik" very well, and consider it one of the best introductions to his 12-tone style. The sketches I had never heard. It's not too surprising he didn't keep the job, but a film with a real Schoenberg score would have been something quite interesting indeed.


----------



## Petwhac

BurningDesire said:


> People should really stop making the distinction of "serious music" and "serious composers". Its really pretentious. Music isn't serious because its written in a particular idiom or tradition or style.


'Serious', 'concert', 'classical', 'atonal' and so on, are all imprecise terms but it is hoped that when having a discussion we can expect a little leeway from the pedants. 

Are the poems inside a birthday card 'serious' poetry? If not, why not. If so, can we make a distinction between the greeting card and T.S. Eliot etc. Is the greeting card 'poet' trying to be Eliot?


----------



## Alfacharger

Mahlerian said:


> I know "Begleitungsmusik" very well, and consider it one of the best introductions to his 12-tone style. The sketches I had never heard. It's not too surprising he didn't keep the job, but a film with a real Schoenberg score would have been something quite interesting indeed.


How about the opposite, a film composer writing in the twelve tone method!


----------



## Alfacharger

Alfacharger said:


> How about the opposite, a film composer writing in the twelve tone method!


Or Bernard Herrmann...






Some of this piece was re-used in his score to Psycho.


----------



## arpeggio

*BBC Music Magazine & John Williams*

John Williams is the Composer of the Month in the Christmas, 2013 issue of the _BBC Music Magazine_. I was unable to locate a link to the article so I scanned it into a PDF file. I hope I am not violating any rule by attaching it.

View attachment jhn wllms.pdf


----------



## QuietGuy

I've read that John Williams also writes symphonic music -- outside of the realm of film music: symphonies, concertos, etc. I can't find any of his non-film scores recorded anywhere. I'd be interested to hear it in order to hear whether he "borrows" from other composers in his concert music as well.


----------



## Art Rock

QuietGuy said:


> I've read that John Williams also writes symphonic music -- outside of the realm of film music: symphonies, concertos, etc. I can't find any of his non-film scores recorded anywhere. I'd be interested to hear it in order to hear whether he "borrows" from other composers in his concert music as well.



View attachment 36938


Link.

For example..........


----------



## Inspiracion original

Hedwig's Theme is 5:03 minutes lenght
There are 4 main melodies distributed along the leitmotif not just one
The change of character using crescendos and diminuendos is more versatile and extended
There is an unique progression moving with the scales that requires a lot of high level of performance.

Please listen again:






and now listen this






Harry Potter Main theme (there is noting to coypaste, still all this songs are different)






When Nicola Tesla was alive he was consider just a crazy man, then he is dead and suddenly the people says: woa he was the man of the future! When Copernicus was alive the church send him to "jail", then hundreds of years later they say: we are sorry, we was wrong. I think you have an idea how the "people" act with talented people.

I must point that when a musician is famous and is on the top public eye radar, there are a lot of investigations going on to see if it is authentic or not, John Williams has even gone to the withe house, he is legit, please know the man.


----------



## Harold in Columbia

Here's a much better piece of soundtrack music than either of those, unmistakably stealing from the same sicilienne: 




I heard a piece on the radio the other day that I thought might be some obscurity by Fauré, until it got loud and I realized it was Copland (_Our Town_). I think we may still be catching up with Gabriel. I mean, it's already clear that he's the greatest classical song composer since Schumann.


----------



## Inspiracion original

I dont think they were stealing but to have the thinking without see each other, in classical there is a lot of variation to an scale, so is like having different sculptures with the same sandstone. For me the top listed above are very much different.


----------



## Nereffid

It's funny for me that this thread should be revived, because I heard the local ice-cream van the other day, which uses "The Teddy Bears' Picnic" as its music. Whenever the tinkly tune begins, I immediately think of the _Harry Potter_ theme!
(And, arguably, a song that begins "If you go down in the woods today you're sure of a big surprise" makes more sense than Fauré's Sicilienne as an inspiration for the movie...)

Also I had to laugh at this:


spradlig said:


> Some of the comparisons between Williams and others in the links you give are quite feeble: e.g., I cannot detect any similarity between Holst's "Mars, the Bringer of War" and anything in any of the Star Wars films.


If one single event could explain why I listen to classical music today it would be the time 35 years ago when, as a young _Star Wars_ fan, I was curious to hear what sort of music might be on my father's LP of _The Planets_ and was thrilled to discover that "Mars" was _just like Star Wars_.


----------



## Guest

Nereffid said:


> If one single event could explain why I listen to classical music today it would be the time 35 years ago when, as a young _Star Wars_ fan, I was curious to hear what sort of music might be on my father's LP of _The Planets_ and was thrilled to discover that "Mars" was _just like Star Wars_.


There's more than one way to CM, of course. Mine was first via The Planets and, IMO, Star Wars did not remind me much of Holst at all and had no impact on my CM listening. I can hear it now, in the same way that I have difficulty listening to much of Hans Zimmer without picturing Richav Wagst...or Gustard Holgner!


----------



## Solistrum

Inspiracion original said:


> When Nicola Tesla was alive he was consider just a crazy man, then he is dead and suddenly the people says: woa he was the man of the future! When Copernicus was alive the church send him to "jail", then hundreds of years later they say: we are sorry, we was wrong. I think you have an idea how the "people" act with talented people.
> 
> I must point that when a musician is famous and is on the top public eye radar, there are a lot of investigations going on to see if it is authentic or not, John Williams has even gone to the withe house, he is legit, please know the man.


First let me pedantic. I don't remember Copernicus being "jailed" maybe you tried to say Galileo and I don't think his agony serves your argument since Galileo's trial is more complicated than a one liner. Apart from that, popularity and approval of Tesla is not universal. Since his baseless opposition against relativity annoyed some people and more than that his claims of "dynamic theory of gravity" made him look like a charlatan. So I don't think Tesla's "eccentric genius" fame didn't change much after he died.

Your claims of ungrateful bigoted masses thankfully is so popular that anyone who can draw a stickman thinks they are ahead of their time. This kind of thinking unfortunately present in any art or science in varying degrees. Please don't understand my disapproval of this line of thinking as "everyone deserves their fame" since this is not true either. Some people (Beethoven) maybe deserved their fame in their lifetime and others (Bach) maybe didn't. This doesn't mean one should make overreaching statements from this.

And as far as I can see people made some solid arguements in this thread I personally find some more convincing than your "he has gone to the White House so he is legit". This is just what I think and of course it doesn't matter much.


----------



## Inspiracion original

Solistrum said:


> First let me pedantic. I don't remember Copernicus being "jailed" maybe you tried to say Galileo and I don't think his agony serves your argument since Galileo's trial is more complicated than a one liner. Apart from that, popularity and approval of Tesla is not universal. Since his baseless opposition against relativity annoyed some people and more than that his claims of "dynamic theory of gravity" made him look like a charlatan. So I don't think Tesla's "eccentric genius" fame didn't change much after he died.
> 
> Your claims of ungrateful bigoted masses thankfully is so popular that anyone who can draw a stickman thinks they are ahead of their time. This kind of thinking unfortunately present in any art or science in varying degrees. Please don't understand my disapproval of this line of thinking as "everyone deserves their fame" since this is not true either. Some people (Beethoven) maybe deserved their fame in their lifetime and others (Bach) maybe didn't. This doesn't mean one should make overreaching statements from this.
> 
> And as far as I can see people made some solid arguements in this thread I personally find some more convincing than your "he has gone to the White House so he is legit". This is just what I think and of course it doesn't matter much.


Dam i do not know why i said Copernicus, you nailed there. You answer is so well written that I have to learn from you, I got your point, nice talking man.


----------



## Xareu123

Dustin said:


> I was just listening to the sicilienne from Faure's Pelleas et Melisande and it is basically the exact same theme of the Harry Potter films(Hedwig's Theme). Not just a vague resemblance, but pretty much the SAME. Anyone else recognize this or know if he did this on purpose as some sort of tribute?
> 
> And all these years I've thought so highly of that particular theme and praised John Williams for it.


Listen do Haydn's Piano Sonata 44. 
Harry Potter's theme plainly.


----------



## Pugg

Xareu123 said:


> Listen do Haydn's Piano Sonata 44.
> Harry Potter's theme plainly.


I am going to give this a try.


----------



## pcnog11

I think John Williams is a highly talented composer. However, you can find that his works were influenced by other famous pieces. There are passages in Star Wars that are similar to Planets. The ability for John to draw commonly accepted patterns from classical music and integrate into his composing is definitely a strength. By doing this perhaps he bridged old (classical) musical ideas to a new generation and pop culture.


----------



## Robert Gamble

So, here are the biggest similarities I've found recently between John Williams' film scores and classical music:

1) 



(Supposedly Lucas told Williams he wanted the music to sound 'something like' King's Row...)

2) 



(Everyone points to Holst's Mars as exactly like Darth Vader's theme.. I don't hear it other than in the 'mood'. THIS however, I hear as almost exactly the same melody and rhythm)

3) 



(This also sounds similar to Star Wars' opening fanfare at 38:35, but the few seconds before it (38:30) I'm sure I've heard in a scene in Star Wars, I just don't remember where)


----------



## hpowders

You know after many, many hundreds of years of composers putting notes together, it would not be unexpected for parts of compositions written by two different composers, to sound a bit similar, perfectly by coincidence.

Not everything is "stolen" or a "conspiracy theory".


----------



## TwoFlutesOneTrumpet

hpowders said:


> Not everything is "stolen" or a "conspiracy theory".


conspiracy theories a lot more fun, though


----------



## hpowders

TwoFlutesOneTrumpet said:


> conspiracy theories a lot more fun, though


Yes. That's true. But if I was an innocent John Williams.....


----------



## TwoFlutesOneTrumpet

hpowders said:


> Yes. That's true. But if I was an innocent John Williams.....


Somehow, I don't think he much cares.


----------



## Robert Gamble

To be clear, my own personal opinion given the videos I posted, are that John Williams repurposed some classical music for some of his scores. I have yet to run across anything that reminds me so directly of something in Raiders of the Lost Ark or Superman, and even if he DID use the music in the above videos as a basis (possibly subconsciously, although again Lucas himself may have asked for something like "The King's Row"), that doesn't mean that he didn't do so brilliantly. It doesn't diminish the power of the various Star Wars scores for me if he heard a serene piano tune and decided to kick it up a few hundred notches for his villain.


----------



## Vaneyes

hpowders said:


> You know after many, many hundreds of years of composers putting notes together, it would not be unexpected for parts of compositions written by two different composers, to sound a bit similar, perfectly by coincidence.
> 
> Not everything is "stolen" or a "conspiracy theory".


The Academy of Motion Picture Arts & Sciences, to my thinking, have a lenient view on this topic. One can easily interpret from their Rule Fifteen "Special Rules" that "heavy lifting" makes a film score ineligible for Original Score nomination. There seem to be definition and weight issues for the words "substantial", "diluted", "diminished", "assembled".

If I'm so permitted , related excerpts from.

*RULE FIFTEEN *
*SPECIAL RULES FOR THE *
*MUSIC AWARDS *
*I. CATEGORIES 
**A. Original Score: *
[FONT=Arial,Arial][FONT=Arial,Arial]An original score is a substantial body of music that serves as original dramatic underscoring and is written specifically for the motion picture by the submitting composer. 
*E. A score shall not be eligible if:* 
1. it has been diluted by the use of pre-existing music, or 
2. it has been diminished in impact by the predominant use of songs or any music not composed specifically for the film by the submitting composer, or 
3. it has been assembled from the music of more than one composer. 
[/FONT][/FONT]


----------



## Radames

Vaneyes said:


> The Academy of Motion Picture Arts & Sciences, to my thinking, have a lenient view on this topic. One can easily interpret from their Rule Fifteen "Special Rules" that "heavy lifting" makes a film score ineligible for Original Score nomination. There seem to be definition and weight issues for the words "substantial", "diluted", "diminished", "assembled".
> 
> If I'm so permitted , related excerpts from.
> 
> *RULE FIFTEEN *
> *SPECIAL RULES FOR THE *
> *MUSIC AWARDS *
> *I. CATEGORIES
> **A. Original Score: *
> [FONT=Arial,Arial][FONT=Arial,Arial]An original score is a substantial body of music that serves as original dramatic underscoring and is written specifically for the motion picture by the submitting composer.
> *E. A score shall not be eligible if:*
> 1. it has been diluted by the use of pre-existing music, or
> 2. it has been diminished in impact by the predominant use of songs or any music not composed specifically for the film by the submitting composer, or
> 3. it has been assembled from the music of more than one composer.
> [/FONT][/FONT]


But the music for the The Right Stuff was lifted from the Tchaikovsky Violin Concerto and it won for best musical score in 1984.


----------



## jailhouse

"The Dune Sea" is obviously exactly the same as the start of the rite of spring part 2. The general consensus is that lucas used that bit as temp music and insisted that the score be very similar to it. I dont get why he had to have it in the exact same key even..seems so damn lazy


----------



## Mellie

hi, I have just joined this forum because I had a question for film score lovers. I have just watched Terrence Mallick's Days of Heaven (1978), the score of which was composed by Ennio Moriccone and the first track has an uncanny resemblance to John Williams' hedwig theme in the Harry Potter films.

Here are the two to compare. What do other people think?

Moriccone's Days of Heaven Soundtrack Track 1.





John Williams Hedwig theme from Harry Potter:





Interestingly when I did a search, I found a reviewer noting the same resemblance:
https://thesoundandthescreen.wordpr...h-2014-blind-spot-days-of-heaven-malick-1978/


----------



## BabyGiraffe

Come on. You can read even in the youtube video description that the piece is by Saint-Saens, not by Morricone...


----------



## Larkenfield

Mellie said:


> Moriccone's Days of Heaven Soundtrack Track 1 (the Saint-Saens).


I hear little or no similarity between the Saint-Saens and the Williams. But there certainly is a striking similarity between the Saint-Saens and Rachel Portman theme for Chocolat in their whimsical-magical qualities: 



If true, Portman made it her own and I don't think she should be condemned for it... and I don't think Williams should be blamed for something he probably didn't do. The Saint-Saen/Portman is far closer in sound and feel and maybe someone should consider that.


----------



## mikeh375

Apologies for not reading the whole thread, but has anyone mentioned 'temp' tracks?
These are pieces of music known to the director that have the right weight and emotional content for a scene. The problem with temp tracks is that they get ingrained in the editor and directors subconscious over many days or weeks of editing, so when the composer is finally engaged, anything written that is markedly different is rejected and then put through a torturous revision process (at least as far as the composer is concerned) to bring the bespoke composition closer and closer to the temp. I personally can vouch for the hassle a temp track can wreak when trying to topple its hold on ears too familiar with its non-digetic or digetic effect. This revision process can extend right up to copyright barriers and sometimes one is forced to get so close legally speaking to the temp, that one has to seek out legal assurances or guarantees that the 'client' will take responsibility.
This has led to court more times than you might be aware of for example, Horner got too close to Britten's Sanctus from his War Requiem in 'Troy' and subsequently got into trouble with the Britten Foundation.

As for Williams, it is true that he is influenced by classical work (one thinks of the last mvt. of Hanson's Romantic Symphony in E.T.), but he is such a brilliant composer, that he can't help but imprint his own self onto any formulas he employs.
As a side note, his concert work is also rather good, a favourite of mine being the Cello Concerto.


----------



## Guest

mikeh375 said:


> Apologies for not reading the whole thread, but has anyone mentioned 'temp' tracks?
> These are pieces of music known to the director that have the right weight and emotional content for a scene. The problem with temp tracks is that they get ingrained in the editor and directors subconscious over many days or weeks of editing, so when the composer is finally engaged, anything written that is markedly different is rejected and revised closer and closer to the temp. I personally can vouch for the hassle a temp track can wreak when trying to topple its hold on ears too familiar with its non-digetic or digetic effect.
> This has led to court more times than you might be aware of for example, Horner got too close to Britten's Sanctus from his War Requiem in 'Troy' and subsequently got into trouble with the Britten Foundation.
> 
> As for Williams, it is true that he is influenced by classical work (one thinks of the last mvt. of Hanson's Romantic Symphony in E.T.), but he is such a brilliant composer, that he can't help but imprint his own self onto any formulas he employs.
> As a side note, his concert work is also rather good, a favourite of mine being the Cello Concerto.


I can't remember if it was in this thread, but yes. Funny example is the use by editor Terry Rawlings of Jerry Goldsmith's _Freud _as a temp track for _Alien_. It was so ingrained that much of Goldsmith's new work was rejected.


----------



## mikeh375

True Macleod..also in 'Aliens', Horner's mimicry of Bartok.


----------



## Rubens

It is quite an underrated skill to be able to write catchy music using mostly other composers' material. Williams has this gift. So did PDQ Bach.


----------



## Pat Fairlea

And.....
the string opening to Arnold Bax's Piano Quintet has definitely been used in film music, but I simply cannot recall where I have heard it. Any suggestions?


----------



## mikeh375

Pat Fairlea said:


> And.....
> the string opening to Arnold Bax's Piano Quintet has definitely been used in film music, but I simply cannot recall where I have heard it. Any suggestions?


Nothing springs immediately to my mind Pat, although I note that the two opening chords a third apart are a staple progression in film music these days, especially in fantasy, sci-fi and mystery. Cliched to the max...


----------



## GraemeG

Robert Gamble said:


> I have yet to run across anything that reminds me so directly of something in Raiders of the Lost Ark or Superman...


The love theme from Superman is pretty much a direct lift from Strauss' _Death and Transfiguration_. I thought that was amongst the best-known of Williams' cribs.
I guess Stravinsky would have approved with that line about "great composers steal..."
Graeme


----------



## David Phillips

mikeh375 said:


> Apologies for not reading the whole thread, but has anyone mentioned 'temp' tracks?
> These are pieces of music known to the director that have the right weight and emotional content for a scene. The problem with temp tracks is that they get ingrained in the editor and directors subconscious over many days or weeks of editing, so when the composer is finally engaged, anything written that is markedly different is rejected and then put through a torturous revision process (at least as far as the composer is concerned) to bring the bespoke composition closer and closer to the temp. I personally can vouch for the hassle a temp track can wreak when trying to topple its hold on ears too familiar with its non-digetic or digetic effect. This revision process can extend right up to copyright barriers and sometimes one is forced to get so close legally speaking to the temp, that one has to seek out legal assurances or guarantees that the 'client' will take responsibility.
> This has led to court more times than you might be aware of for example, Horner got too close to Britten's Sanctus from his War Requiem in 'Troy' and subsequently got into trouble with the Britten Foundation.
> 
> As for Williams, it is true that he is influenced by classical work (one thinks of the last mvt. of Hanson's Romantic Symphony in E.T.), but he is such a brilliant composer, that he can't help but imprint his own self onto any formulas he employs.
> As a side note, his concert work is also rather good, a favourite of mine being the Cello Concerto.


I think you're probably right about the influence of temp tracks, especially when the producer/director knows something about music. Alfred Hitchcock was a big fan of classical music, did he ask Bernard Herman to make the main title theme to North by Northwest end like the 3rd movement of Elgar's 2nd Symphony? Herman was keen on English music, perhaps he quoted Elgar in homage.


----------



## Pat Fairlea

mikeh375 said:


> Nothing springs immediately to my mind Pat, although I note that the two opening chords a third apart are a staple progression in film music these days, especially in fantasy, sci-fi and mystery. Cliched to the max...


You're right. Maybe that's all it is. It's a fine Quintet.


----------



## mikeh375

David Phillips said:


> I think you're probably right about the influence of temp tracks, especially when the producer/director knows something about music. Alfred Hitchcock was a big fan of classical music, did he ask Bernard Herman to make the main title theme to North by Northwest end like the 3rd movement of Elgar's 2nd Symphony? Herman was keen on English music, perhaps he quoted Elgar in homage.


I've had to go through the hassle temps cause many times in my career. In one case (the only one actually) I was coerced to get closer and closer to the temp despite my protestations. So much so that after an orchestral recording session at Abbey Road studios, it was decided my music was too close to the temp for legal reasons and not worth 'the risk' of broadcasting (yes I did say "I told you so" because I was quite angry about it, being classically trained, I knew it would be an issue). 
Fortunately in this case, the production company picked up the initial recording bill so I re-wrote the music and after a second recording session, all went well.

A turn of events like this is all too familiar within media music and has spurned a nice side industry for musicologists over the years, especially ones familiar with copyright law. At times I have been inclined to submit demos that are not on brief, rather than face temp hassle and legal damnation. This tactic can actually work on occasion (but only rarely) because the demo will stand out from the crowd of other demos by other composers as being fresh and different.


----------



## Wdh37

Dustin said:


> I was just listening to the sicilienne from Faure's Pelleas et Melisande and it is basically the exact same theme of the Harry Potter films(Hedwig's Theme). Not just a vague resemblance, but pretty much the SAME. Anyone else recognize this or know if he did this on purpose as some sort of tribute?
> 
> And all these years I've thought so highly of that particular theme and praised John Williams for it.


Indeed. Just made the connection while watching Better Call Saul as Sicilliene was a reoccurring theme. My 14 year old told me I was insane.


----------



## VoiceFromTheEther

Availability heuristic + _post hoc ergo propter hoc_ is all there is to this topic.

A more worthy question would be "is Hedwig's theme a Siciliana?".












The answer to that is, Williams's theme is not a pure Siciliana; it is in 3/8 and a bit more waltz-like. What it _is_, is certainly the most harmonically accomplished theme of the lot, succesfully utilizing all the 12 tones.


----------



## Aries

John Williams probably used a theme of the second movement of Ture Rangströms 4th symphony for Harry Potter:

John Williams: Link

Ture Rangström: Link


----------



## VoiceFromTheEther

Aries said:


> John Williams probably used a theme of the second movement of Ture Rangströms 4th symphony for Harry Potter:
> 
> John Williams: Link
> 
> Ture Rangström: Link


Maybe you should add a disclaimer that this is satire. People might not notice.


----------



## fluteman

Dustin said:


> I was just listening to the sicilienne from Faure's Pelleas et Melisande and it is basically the exact same theme of the Harry Potter films(Hedwig's Theme). Not just a vague resemblance, but pretty much the SAME. Anyone else recognize this or know if he did this on purpose as some sort of tribute?
> 
> And all these years I've thought so highly of that particular theme and praised John Williams for it.


I hesitate to write this and provoke a firestorm, but I consider John Williams more an excellent composer of popular music than a classical music composer. The difference being, popular music aims to appeal to the broadest possible audience right away, and therefore capture the zeitgeist of the moment, while classical music aims to convey broader, deeper and more universal concepts and remain relevant well past its own era, even if its audience is smaller in the short term. Movie scores are mostly (not entirely, I admit) a popular music genre, since most movies are created to score an immediate and lucrative success, that industry being what it is.
Williams has had great success mining themes from the classical music canon in a creative way that is far from mere plagiarism. This phenomenon often can be found in the best popular music. Paul McCartney's Beatles hit Blackbird and Simon and Garfunkel's Bridge Over Troubled Water both draw from Bach. Sting has used Prokofiev.


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## Aries

fluteman said:


> I hesitate to write this and provoke a firestorm, but I consider John Williams more an excellent composer of popular music than a classical music composer. The difference being, popular music aims to appeal to the broadest possible audience right away, and therefore capture the zeitgeist of the moment, while classical music aims to convey broader, deeper and more universal concepts and remain relevant well past its own era, even if its audience is smaller in the short term.


I think special definitions are not good. Like single out an aspect. Definitions should be as basic as possible. The sound generation of John Williams music is classical, I think that should count the most. Movies are no classical medium, but I think that is rather a secondary aspect. Also the tendency to reuse themes of others is maybe bigger in film music than in symphonies for example, but that is also secondary. John Wiliams is a pretty good classical composer, classical because it is for classical orchestra.

But it makes sense to make a differentiation in between classical music between serious music and lighter music like film music, dances, operetta etc.


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## fluteman

Aries said:


> I think special definitions are not good. Like single out an aspect. Definitions should be as basic as possible. The sound generation of John Williams music is classical, I think that should count the most. Movies are no classical medium, but I think that is rather a secondary aspect. Also the tendency to reuse themes of others is maybe bigger in film music than in symphonies for example, but that is also secondary. John Wiliams is a pretty good classical composer, classical because it is for classical orchestra.
> 
> But it makes sense to make a differentiation in between classical music between serious music and lighter music like film music, dances, operetta etc.


I agree that Williams composes for the traditional "classical" orchestra. But he is an old feller, probably one of the last from a tradition of golden age Hollywood music that peaked from the 1930s to the 1960s. Back in those days, and reaching even further back to the late 19th century, the traditional acoustic orchestra was a staple for all sorts of popular music entirely apart from symphony, opera and ballet. But things gradually changed in the 20th century, first with electrical amplification, then the electric guitar, then keyboard synthesizers, and finally digital equipment. As late as the early 1960s, popular singers still were routinely backed by a traditional acoustic orchestra. As late as the early 1980s, most Broadway musicals still featured a full acoustic orchestra in the pit. But no longer. So I think it more accurate to say that John Williams comes from an old popular music tradition, which he represents quite ably.


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## HansZimmer

> I was just listening to the sicilienne from Faure's Pelleas et Melisande and it is basically the exact same theme of the Harry Potter films(Hedwig's Theme). Not just a vague resemblance, but pretty much the SAME. Anyone else recognize this or know if he did this on purpose as some sort of tribute?
> 
> And all these years I've thought so highly of that particular theme and praised John Williams for it.


You are asking if this one...







...looks like this one.







I can only hear two or three notes in common, to be honest. I can't hear the whole Harry Potter theme in the piece of Faurré.


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## Aries

fluteman said:


> I agree that Williams composes for the traditional "classical" orchestra. But he is an old feller, probably one of the last from a tradition of golden age Hollywood music that peaked from the 1930s to the 1960s. Back in those days, and reaching even further back to the late 19th century, the traditional acoustic orchestra was a staple for all sorts of popular music entirely apart from symphony, opera and ballet. But things gradually changed in the 20th century, first with electrical amplification, then the electric guitar, then keyboard synthesizers, and finally digital equipment. As late as the early 1960s, popular singers still were routinely backed by a traditional acoustic orchestra. As late as the early 1980s, most Broadway musicals still featured a full acoustic orchestra in the pit. But no longer. So I think it more accurate to say that John Williams comes from an old popular music tradition, which he represents quite ably.


But these old populars singers sang, so it was about songs like today in popular music. John Williams music is not about songs. I rather see him in the tradition of film composers like Herrmann and Shostakovich who also wrote non-film classical music. Today the composers are maybe more splitted between pure film composers and non-film composers. And popular music has also moved much more away from classical music. But John Williams is one of the film composers who also writes non-film classical pieces. So I think he is more like Herrmann and Shostakovich. And back in the time of them many music was still closer to standard classical music, so it is probably better to differentiate with the more extreme differences of today in mind.


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