# Name Your Top 5 Normas!



## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

got this idea while debating in the assoluta thread. 

my list is as follows
1) Callas (duh lol)
2) Marisa Galvany
3) Ghena Dimitrova
4) Shirley Verrett
5) Christine Goerke


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## schigolch (Jun 26, 2011)

Maria Callas, Joan Sutherland, Montserrat Caballé, Anita Cerquetti, Cristina Deutekom


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## DarkAngel (Aug 11, 2010)

1)*Callas the divine*......la scala 55 season live recordings are reference to measure all others

2)*Rosa Ponselle* - no complete recordings but the recorded segments leave no doubt!






3)*Joan Sutherland* - but only the early 1960s recordings before vocal clarity was diminished

4)*Elena Souliotis* - her studio Norma done 1 year after famous Nabucco recording, vocals fully intact

5)*Shirley Verrett* - has some late 1970s live Norma recordings from San Francisco that are excellent

*Sweet Soul Sisters.....*


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

1:Joan Sutherland/ Horne
2 Elena Souliotis / Cossotto 
3. Scotto / Troyanos, just for the latter 
4 Cristina Deutkom.
5. Sutherland / Caballé


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Callas, Ponselle, Sutherland, Caballe, Verrett, Cerquetti


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Seattleoperafan said:


> Callas, Ponselle, Sutherland, Caballe, Verrett, Cerqueti


That's cheating Seattleoperafan


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Pugg said:


> That's cheating Seattleoperafan


I never cheated on my wife when I was married and I would never cheat my opera group forum friends. It is purely my superior powers of discrimination that allowed me to come up with my superior list haha


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Seattleoperafan said:


> I never cheated on my wife when I was married and I would never cheat my opera group forum friends. It is purely my superior powers of discrimination that allowed me to come up with my superior list haha


I am beaten :lol:


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

Sutherland/Verrett/Caballe/Callas/Radvanovsky


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## DarkAngel (Aug 11, 2010)

The original Norma from premiere in 1831


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## Lensky (May 8, 2016)

1) Maria Callas
2) Anita Cerquetti
3) Elena Souliotis
4) Montserrat Caballé
5) Joan Sutherland

and Rosa Ponselle


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## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

Sutherland's Norma was amazingly beautiful. in fact, I prefer her rendition of both of the arias and the caballetta, but overall, the voice was lacking in the vengeance, nastiness and strength in the lower register necessary to make the role "complete" if you will.


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## Tuoksu (Sep 3, 2015)

Cecilia Bartoli (Joke :lol

*La Divina.*
Vocally unsurpassable, and looks divine like she's supposed to, even before the weight loss. 








Then (in order) Rosa Ponselle , Montserrat Caballé and Joan Sutherland.
I can't think of a fifth Norma great enough to fit among these. Cerquetti is great but lacks coloratura.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

I will say that I never thought I'd ever see a great Norma in my lifetime, but when Carol Vaness chickend out ( bowed out) 22 years ago in Seattle they brought over Jane Eaglen for her N American debut. Singing lots of Wagner was not great for her Norma, but at the start of her career she vocally had it all ( huge voice, great beauty of tone, very acceptable coloratura and a high D6 for the trio) I got a pirated copy of that recording and it was better than her version later at the Met or the studio with Muti minus the D6. ( BY THE WAY, i HAVE A CASSETTE OF THIS. iF ANYONE COULD CONVERT IT TO A CD I WOULD SEND IT TO YOU AS A GIFT).She also was less large than she later got to be 4 or 5 years later by probably 50 pounds. Later we had Christine Goerke in her debut as Norma, and she almost had it all except for some pitch problems. Ewa Podles was her Adalgisa and that was a peak opera experience. I also have a cassette of that.


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## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

BalalaikaBoy said:


> got this idea while debating in the assoluta thread.
> 
> my list is as follows
> 1) Callas (duh lol)
> ...


honorable mention:
- Caballe
- Sutherland (again, great in some parts, ill suited for others)


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

DarkAngel said:


> The original Norma from premiere in 1831


No doubt this is in the Richard Bonynge collection now.


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## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

Pugg said:


> 1:Joan Sutherland/ Horne
> 2 Elena Souliotis / Cossotto
> 3. Scotto / *Troyanos, just for the latter*
> 4 Cristina Deutkom.
> 5. Sutherland / Caballé


I'm glad you clarified. Scotto should not have gone anywhere near a role requiring that much weight. Much prefer her Boheme, Rigoletto and Butterfly (anything from lyric to light spinto is fine, but her voice is not nearly as heavy as she liked to think)


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

BalalaikaBoy said:


> I'm glad you clarified. Scotto should not have gone anywhere near a role requiring that much weight. Much prefer her Boheme, Rigoletto and Butterfly (anything from lyric to light spinto is fine, but her voice is not nearly as heavy as she liked to think)


I do think however that's she trying to stamp her authority in this recording, but as I said , it's Troyanos who rules.


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## DarkAngel (Aug 11, 2010)

Our modern day casta diva Norma - Sondra Radvanovsky appearing soon at the MET replacing the wisely bowed out Netrebko, at least she knows when a role is beyond her current capabilities (Ceci pay attention)

I wonder if Schigolch has seen this at the Liceu Barcelona (I suspect yes)......any comments?


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

DarkAngel said:


> Our modern day casta diva Norma - Sondra Radvanovsky appearing soon at the MET replacing the wisely bowed out Netrebko, at least she knows when a role is beyond her current capabilities (Ceci pay attention)
> 
> I wonder if Schigolch has seen this at the Liceu Barcelona (I suspect yes)......any comments?


I did, on the Mezzo channel, stunning!


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## schigolch (Jun 26, 2011)

DarkAngel said:


> I wonder if Schigolch has seen this at the Liceu Barcelona (I suspect yes)......any comments?


She did a good job, though fighting sometimes with Mr. Palumbo's lethargic tempi, and she received a deserved ovation from the audience, myself included.


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## Tuoksu (Sep 3, 2015)

DarkAngel said:


> Our modern day casta diva Norma - Sondra Radvanovsky appearing soon at the MET replacing the wisely bowed out Netrebko, at least she knows when a role is beyond her current capabilities (Ceci pay attention)
> 
> I wonder if Schigolch has seen this at the Liceu Barcelona (I suspect yes)......any comments?


I love Sondra. She is probably the finest Soprano singing today. She has a huge voice yet handles coloratura impressively well for such a big voice. Her Trovatore and Ballo are amazing. My favorite role of hers however is Elizabeth I in Roberto Devereux. She was perfectly suited for that one. Beverly Sills had better coloratura of course, but she didn't sound like a 69-year-old Elizabeth. That role I think is just as difficult as Norma or maybe even more demanding.

I've seen excerpts from her Norma. Not in the Callas/Ponselle/Sutherland/Caballé league but still great and far superior to Netrebko and her likes who simply can never do such roles any justice.


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## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

stumbled across this gem. at the tender age of _25_ no less!


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## DarkAngel (Aug 11, 2010)

BalalaikaBoy said:


> stumbled across this gem. at the tender age of _25_ no less!












The 49 Puritani tracks are perhaps even more impressive.......the vivid characterization of Elvira , the "string of pearls" descending notes of "vien diletto" and the electrifying flying note climax


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## DarkAngel (Aug 11, 2010)

Norma 1949


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## Tuoksu (Sep 3, 2015)

DarkAngel said:


> The 49 Puritani tracks are perhaps even more impressive.......the vivid characterization of Elvira , the "string of pearls" descending notes of "vien diletto" and the electrifying flying note climax


The Cetra 1949 are among her best recordings ever. And the best Puritani on record in my opinion. It was also nice to hear her sing Wagner, albeit in Italian.


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## DarkAngel (Aug 11, 2010)

Tuoksu said:


> The Cetra 1949 are among her best recordings ever. And the *best Puritani on record in my opinion*. It was also nice to hear her sing Wagner, albeit in Italian.


The Pristine XR 1953 Puritani is my reference, as well as Pristine XR 55 Norma.....both Callas naturally 
























Norma 1955 La Scala


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## BaritoneAssoluto (Jun 6, 2016)

1. Maria Callas (Her '52 London Performance is considered by many to be her standard, however, her '55 with Del Monaco and Simionato, was some of her best work). I happen to be a fan of her 1960 recording as well (might be in the minority for this one) but her wobble added an extra depth of ethereality that no other Norma (in pure prima voce or otherwise,) could show. The '60 Norma recording, showed a realistic sounding and realistic look into the Norma character -- Elegant, stentorian, yet requires much more than what her outer shell shows. Norma is a mother and a pure woman and this 1960 recording with Christa Ludwig, showcases that. Her "In mia man, al fin tu sei" is actually better in this version than her '57 performances. But if you want a real treat? Check out her "Casta Diva..Fine al rito, Ah bello a me ritona!" from her 1955 live recording with Del Monaco. Holy cow! That high C explodes all over the chorus and the orchestra and showcases her intricate phrasing at its highest peak!

2. Carol Vaness
3. Shirley Verrett
4. Sondra Radvansosky (hopefully I got her last name right, lol!)
5. Maria Callas.... I have no others minus the three I named, lol.


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## MAS (Apr 15, 2015)

Maria Callas, first and always!

Montserrat Caballe - the Orange performance
Joan Sutherland

No others compare. I don't think we have enough evidence to nominate Ponselle, as great as the voice was.


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## MAS (Apr 15, 2015)

BaritoneAssoluto said:


> 1. Maria Callas (Her '52 London Performance is considered by many to be her standard, however, her '55 with Del Monaco and Simionato, was some of her best work). I happen to be a fan of her 1960 recording as well (might be in the minority for this one) but her wobble added an extra depth of ethereality that no other Norma (in pure prima voce or otherwise,) could show. The '60 Norma recording, showed a realistic sounding and realistic look into the Norma character -- Elegant, stentorian, yet requires much more than what her outer shell shows. Norma is a mother and a pure woman and this 1960 recording with Christa Ludwig, showcases that. Her "In mia man, al fin tu sei" is actually better in this version than her '57 performances. But if you want a real treat? Check out her "Casta Diva..Fine al rito, Ah bello a me ritona!" from her 1955 live recording with Del Monaco. Holy cow! That high C explodes all over the chorus and the orchestra and showcases her intricate phrasing at its highest peak!
> 
> 2. Carol Vaness
> 3. Shirley Verrett
> ...


'57 performances, BaritoneAssoluto? There is only one television "Casta Diva" extant recording that year. Otherwise, I love your post.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

MAS said:


> View attachment 86873
> 
> Maria Callas, first and always!
> 
> ...


Based on the recorded excerpts, I think anyone would be justified in nominating Ponselle. It's obvious that she has all the requirements to a degree unequaled by either Sutherland or Caballe, the former deficient in chest tones, diction, and dramatic fire, and the latter, slightly, in coloratura. Her interpretation of the selections she recorded is strong; she was undoubtedly even stronger live, and she was well-regarded in the role.

Good enough for me.


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## DarkAngel (Aug 11, 2010)

Woodduck said:


> Based on the recorded excerpts, I think anyone would be justified in nominating Ponselle. It's obvious that she has all the requirements to a degree unequaled by either Sutherland or Caballe, the former deficient in chest tones, diction, and dramatic fire, and the latter, slightly, in coloratura. Her interpretation of the selections she recorded is strong; she was undoubtedly even stronger live, and she was well-regarded in the role.
> 
> Good enough for me.





> 2)*Rosa Ponselle* - no complete recordings but the recorded segments leave no doubt!


The extended segment above in good sound gives a good cross section of Norma, the "sedizioce voci" reminds me so much of Callas in its dramatic touches and strong powerful emphasis on key words, and "Bello a me ritorna" has all the skillful emotional rendering of a great Norma with her longing for the happy days of early love that has left her only memories now......if only the "fine al rito" was included we would have another Callas reminder of dramatic intensity (I am sure)!


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## MAS (Apr 15, 2015)

Woodduck said:


> Based on the recorded excerpts, I think anyone would be justified in nominating Ponselle. It's obvious that she has all the requirements to a degree unequaled by either Sutherland or Caballe, the former deficient in chest tones, diction, and dramatic fire, and the latter, slightly, in coloratura. Her interpretation of the selections she recorded is strong; she was undoubtedly even stronger live, and she was well-regarded in the role.
> 
> Good enough for me.


But not for me, without a complete recording! 

However, for contemporary views of Ponselle's first Norma at the Met, see 
http://archives.metoperafamily.org/Imgs/PonselleNorma.htm


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## DarkAngel (Aug 11, 2010)

^^^^ those were tough critics for all the singers the 1927 MET revival performance of Norma, they keep making critical comparisons to singers they never heard in person or have any Norma recordings, Grisi was active as famous dramatic soprano from 1830-60......she sang the Adalgisa role with Pasta at Norma premiere, but later had her own famous premieres like Puritani's Elvira, not sure how they can make any critical direct comparisons between Grisi and Ponselle...........??????????










Giulia Grisi


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## schigolch (Jun 26, 2011)

Tullio Serafin once said that Ponselle was to him his favorite Norma, even before Callas. 

This is credit enough for me, even if I agree we are missing so much of Ponselle in the role.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

If we're crediting reviewers with saying anything definitive (which they rarely do), keep in mind that those reviews are generally quite positive, that it was Ponselle's very first appearance in one of the most difficult roles in opera, and that she is being compared with singers known to the critics mainly by reputation. Reviews are historically interesting, but if we want to get anything more from them we have to be able to distinguish facts from personal value judgments. Critics are turning out a product for pay, and are best regarded as entertainers commenting on other entertainers. If they actually know something it's a welcome plus.


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## silentio (Nov 10, 2014)

Don't want to sound like an iconoclast here, but why at the climax of Casta Diva (3:07-3:12 in this Ponselle clip), many older divas don't take time to "sustain" the line (like Callas does) but seem to "rush"?






Not just Ponselle, Muzio and Lilli Lehmann do that too, though they sound less annoying.

Btw, I prefer this Casta Diva to that of Ponselle's. Muzio was a successful Norma too. The earlier critics were well-aware that she was not a bel-canto specialist (no trills, though her voice had great agility), but according to some, she almost fooled the audiences into believing in her verismo approach.






There is something quite neurotic and paranoid hidden in the voice of Muzio's when she floats the Bellinian lines (not just in this, but in other Bellini arias too). This always reminds of the way Cortot plays Chopin.


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## schigolch (Jun 26, 2011)

For Muzio, singing Norma was really an exception in her career. Her voice was not suited at all to the role. Even then, she was such a great singer that she was able to get a very favorable reception, but I think it was more a "stage" success, than a "vocal" success, if you get my meaning. She debuted Norma at her fetish theather, Buenos Aires's Colón, rather late in her career, in 1927, and she didn't sing it often (mostly a few times at Rome and Florence). She was indeed in good company, with Stignani, Lauri-Volpi and Tancredi Pasero.

Other successful Normas of the period include Rosa Raisa:






and Giannina Arangi-Lombardi:






Indeed, Claudia Muzio had the wonderful gift of coloring everything she sang, and create an emotion, with just an inflection of her voice. Talking about Bellini, this "Sorgi, o padre", is a small miracle:


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

MAS said:


> But not for me, without a complete recording!
> 
> However, for contemporary views of Ponselle's first Norma at the Met, see
> http://archives.metoperafamily.org/Imgs/PonselleNorma.htm


Thanks for that!!!!!!!!


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