# Anyone else have trouble connecting with Sibelius?



## larold (Jul 20, 2017)

Of all the big name composers I had more difficulty connecting with the music of Jean Sibelius than any other. As a young collector in the 1970s I over-listened to his romantic symphonies 1, 2 and 5 and the violin concerto to exhaustion. Beyond those four nothing of his much struck me in a way I could understand. I knew Finlandia, of course, but ignored it.

That improved over time but, still today after collecting and listening to music for almost half a century, his complicated emotions are often elusive for me. I tried him again with more vigor when I retired age 62 seven years ago; I was able to connect with more of his music -- Symphony 3, Lemminkainen Suite, En Saga, Oceanides, Pelleas and Melisande incidental music, Tapiola -- but connecting with him consistently is still a struggle. His nationalist Finnish music just doesn't register with me like Dvorak and Smetana's Czech music or Elgar and Vaughan Williams' English music.


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## Strange Magic (Sep 14, 2015)

This may be idiotic but perhaps those who have gone cross-country skiing solo through a wintry taiga landscape or who can best imagine themselves doing same, are most attuned to Sibelius' music, to the degree to which it evokes the mood that such a journey and environment mostly powerfully suggests. This sense of that mood can long precede any actual experience of a solitary winter or boreal journey. Someone once suggested that Sibelius' music conjured up the idea of cold fire (specifically in reference to _En Saga_).


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## larold (Jul 20, 2017)

It doesn't sound idiotic … but I live in Michigan. We had 8 inches of snow last week followed by temperatures as low as 15 below F. A day or two in that period the temp never rose above zero. We don't always have winters that harsh but we have hard winters.

I am very active, even in winter, and often hike in the snow (where the deer travel) in a large cemetery across the street from my house that's followed by a natural woodland. I often stop to admire winter landscapes.

I've lived here my whole life. I don't think my issue is environmental.


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## Larkenfield (Jun 5, 2017)

Well, something must still be attracting you to him because you keep trying. I feel he’s worth it. I believe there’s often something stirring, deep and profound behind his music and I believe that it’s his profound connection with Nature (capital N), that through unspoken (wordless) sound he often speaks for Nature and the forces of Nature are often interacting with each other and he is the detached or impersonal observer. I believe this can be heard in his great symphonies, for instance, I hear a great connection with the natural forces of life in his fourth symphony, which has a sense of the natural forces of life interacting with each other during winter—the aliveness of the trees speaking to each other, the wind, the sense of the stark landscape in winter, the aliveness of Nature as if no one is observing it and the sense of how much the composer loves it. I found it a great experience to open up to these possibilities where the aliveness of Nature comes through his music. Some view the fourth as a very austere and stark symphony, and on the surface it probably is, but I hear more... What I hear is a man who is walking through a winter landscape and willing to be courageous and alone with himself—that he goes into that winter forest as one person and comes out transformed. The music can have a way of speaking to the listener. I believe his music will continue to grow in value and respect as Nature continues to be threatened by industrialism and human carelessness. His symphonies two, four, five and seven are personal favorites.


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## Red Terror (Dec 10, 2018)

larold said:


> It doesn't sound idiotic … but I live in Michigan. We had 8 inches of snow last week followed by temperatures as low as 15 below F. A day or two in that period the temp never rose above zero. We don't always have winters that harsh but we have hard winters.
> 
> I am very active, even in winter, and often hike in the snow (where the deer travel) in a large cemetery across the street from my house that's followed by a natural woodland. I often stop to admire winter landscapes.
> 
> I've lived here my whole life. I don't think my issue is environmental.


Frostbite might help. :tiphat:


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## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

Your experience parallels mine: in the '70s as I was learning the repertoire, the Sibelius I liked consisted of symphonies 2 & 5, Finlandia, with the violin concerto on the fringe. Not much else. I thought the ubiquitous Karelia Suite was trite. I picked up the Boston/Davis cycle when it came out swearing that this time I was going to get it! Still didn't. Then something happened - I matured, aged? The first symphony suddenly became a favorite. A live performance of the 7th with the London Symphony made the 7th spring to life and the rest was history. Now, Sibelius is one of my favorites. He wrote his share of crap, to be sure. But things like Tapiola, En Saga, Intimate Voices, and so much more are stunning. I got into it so much that I even bought the entire Bis Sibelius "complete" collection. Maddeningly though, as an orchestral performer it's always Finlandia, Karelia, the VC, and Symphony 2.


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## Steerpike (Dec 29, 2018)

I recall finding the 2nd symphony really frustrating the first few times I listened to it. There seemed to be a lot of fragmentary themes that weren't developed, especially in the first movement, and it therefore seemed very disjointed. After a bit of perseverance though, the work became a firm favourite.

Now I'm more familiar with his approach, he one of my favourite composers.


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## MarkW (Feb 16, 2015)

I have loved the violin concerto since I was a youth and heard Perleman perform it in Symphony Hall. But the rest is harder going. I have the symphonies (also Davis/BSO and Maazel/VPO), and have occasionally enjoyed them,but more often when one comes up on my iPod, I page ahead to another work. I agree that they often sound like a trudge across a tundra landscape until the end, when you spy the sun rising over a distant mountain -- but I've never been able to discern the organizing principle.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

larold said:


> Of all the big name composers I had more difficulty connecting with the music of Jean Sibelius than any other. As a young collector in the 1970s I over-listened to his romantic symphonies 1, 2 and 5 and the violin concerto to exhaustion. Beyond those four nothing of his much struck me in a way I could understand. I knew Finlandia, of course, but ignored it.
> 
> That improved over time but, still today after collecting and listening to music for almost half a century, his complicated emotions are often elusive for me. I tried him again with more vigor when I retired age 62 seven years ago; I was able to connect with more of his music -- Symphony 3, Lemminkainen Suite, En Saga, Oceanides, Pelleas and Melisande incidental music, Tapiola -- but connecting with him consistently is still a struggle. His nationalist Finnish music just doesn't register with me like Dvorak and Smetana's Czech music or Elgar and Vaughan Williams' English music.


Are you expecting something specific from Sibelius that he won't deliver? You refer to romanticism and nationalism. Although Sibelius certainly began as a Romantic, influenced by the Russian nationalists, Wagner and others, there was a part of his temperament - perhaps a Finnish pessimism - that didn't fit that category, as well as a concern with formal experimentation increasingly evident in the later symphonies. My favorite works include ones you don't mention - the 4th, 6th and 7th symphonies - and these lack most of the overtly Romantic, heroic, national qualities exemplified by some of the early tone poems, seeming rather to speak of the composer's most private and contemplative moods. They have the paradoxical quality of being both highly personal and austerely impersonal, as if Sibelius has stood before nature and emptied himself, letting the wind in the trees and the rustle of tiny creatures tell their secrets.


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## Pat Fairlea (Dec 9, 2015)

Larkenfield said:


> .... I feel he's worth it. I believe there's often something stirring, deep and profound behind his music and I believe that it's his profound connection with Nature (capital N), that through unspoken (wordless) sound *he often speaks for Nature and the forces of Nature are often interacting with each other and he is the detached or impersonal observer.* ..... What I hear is a man who is walking through a winter landscape and willing to be courageous and alone with himself-that he goes into that winter forest as one person and comes out transformed. The music can have a way of speaking to the listener. I believe his music will continue to grow in value and respect as Nature continues to be threatened by industrialism and human carelessness. His symphonies two, four, five and seven are personal favorites.


That's it. Exactly that.


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## Dimace (Oct 19, 2018)

I have trouble connecting with many composers. Sibelius, is just one of them. I see no problem though. When a composer delivers to YOU what you expect and want, it is ok. When he doesn't make it it's also ok. You stop listen to him and you look somewhere else. I don't see any reason to force our feelings and taste when it comes to music. (I really like some ridiculous folk songs and I don't like Mozart's operas!)


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## larold (Jul 20, 2017)

_My favorite works include ones you don't mention - the 4th, 6th and 7th symphonies - and these lack most of the overtly Romantic, heroic, national qualities exemplified by some of the early tone poems, seeming rather to speak of the composer's most private and contemplative moods. _

Sibelius changed course with the third symphony and continued into the fourth not because of nature or intimacy; he did so in reaction to bloated, romantic music still being written by Richard Strauss and others. He scaled back the ideas, orchestration and volume in these works for that reason.

I don't hear nature or Finalnd in the fourth symphony; I more likely hear the Finnish pessimist you mentioned who was unhappy about Russia taking over his country and outcomes from his lifelong drinking. He had to stop drinking and smoking once he had throat surgery, another thing that turned him sour. I often hear sourness in lieu of icy landscapes.

He was a man of many moods, that's certain. I love the nationalism of the Lemminkainen suite and its incredible story -- first Lemminkainen makes love to 1,000 virgins, then is attacked by their suitors and hacked into pieces, after which his mother sews him together again and he makes a triumphant return. This is a better story than anything Dvorak dreamed up about witches or other hobgoblins.

But even here it is difficult for me to listen to the whole thing in one setting without becoming impatient. It appears I have to be of a certain mood or particular time to hear it all. I think possibly his music requires more patience than I am wont to offer sometimes.


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## DeepR (Apr 13, 2012)

My first Sibelius was the 7th and it became one of my favorite pieces of music.
I believe someone on this forum once wrote that it's one of the most difficult Sibelius pieces to get into. But I wanted to get to know this composer and I was up for a challenge. At first, I couldn't make heads or tails out of it. But I simply kept listening until it revealed itself to me. It's one of the most brilliant pieces I know. There's a kind of organic flow to it that I've rarely heard elsewhere. Now I sometimes whistle some of its themes, even the barely whistleable ones, when they suddenly pop up in my head. 
This reminds me I still have to listen to a number of his symphonies and other orchestral pieces.


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## eugeneonagain (May 14, 2017)

Woodduck said:


> as if Sibelius has stood before nature and emptied himself, letting the wind in the trees and the rustle of tiny creatures tell their secrets.


We all get caught short at times.:lol:

I'm a relative latecomer to Sibelius, after ignoring symphonic works for many years, and I found all his symphonies quite easy to listen to. No real duds. 
His popular works _Tapiola_ and _Finlandia_ do nothing for me. I accept this for what it is. There is no ruling that says you have to like everything without exception. The OP is lucky to have enjoyed Sibelius; I don't think not liking everything counts as have 'trouble connecting'.


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## GraemeG (Jun 30, 2009)

Sibelius' comments about offering cold water in contrast to other composers' cocktails sums up his music nicely. I think of it not so much as being of Nature, but more primal somehow. In contrast to Bruckner, whose music I find to be singularly 'cosmic' in scale, Sibelius flits between the vastness of space and the minuteness of quantum physics. Sometimes it's 'obvious'; all the little scurrying fragments in the finale of Symphony 5 that build to the big tune, other times it seems to be so many molecules under a microscope that build only fleetingly to some vast vision, like much of Symphonies 6 & 7. His orchestration is all wet greys and blacks, with such a remote sense - his bassoons have a gnawing bleakness that I hear nowhere else - it sounds often to me like a universe in creation, but in atmospheric black and white.
And although I don't hear 'humanity' in his music, I hear organisms. It's alien music, yet wondrous and intoxicating at the same time. I think Brahms would have liked it too.
Graeme


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## R3PL4Y (Jan 21, 2016)

Sibelius is probably the composer that I connect the most with (And I live in Michigan too, so its definitely not the weather!). His music to me always evokes nature, but it also always seems to have a sort of elusive quality to it that I think results from the way that his rhythms, harmonies, themes, etc. are always just a little unorthodox.


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## SONNET CLV (May 31, 2014)

Anyone else have trouble connecting with Sibelius? 

Yeah, me. He never writes back. I can't get a working phone number for the man. And his presence on Social Media is like totally zero! Hello? Can you hear me? Jean … are you out there?


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## TwoFlutesOneTrumpet (Aug 31, 2011)

Sibelius is among my favourites. His music is like no other composer's (true of all the greats). I especially love all of his symphonies; the 4th took the longest to crack and the 7th almost as long but now is among my most treasured works. The tone poems are wonderful too and so is the Violin concerto but it's his symphonies that make the greatest connection for me.


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