# Frozen Bob's Estranged Wife



## Crudblud

(I was originally waiting to show it to the dedicatee, but I guess she's busy enjoying a well earned rest after a hard year of studying)

_Frozen Bob's Estranged Wife_ is probably a suite of some sort written with total disregard for both the physical limitations of the bass clarinet, violin, harpsichord and tom drums and for the mental and physical health of the players thereof. Fortunately the computer does such a good job that I don't need to hire and possibly kill happy, healthy musicians to get it done. As in the liner notes, I'll mention that there are a couple of rough sounding parts where the virtual instruments were taken way out of their comfort zone. I managed to work out most of these kinks but a few remain, hopefully they will pass by largely unnoticed.

So anyway, this is my sell-out pop record filled with catchy dance tunes and lyrics about how I want to be your man, baby. Okay, not really, but this one may throw off people who only know _Salami XIII_* and _Night Music_*, however, those of you familiar with _Sailin' Tuns!_* may be more open to it. Like _ST!_, _Frozen Bob_ has a text which is designed to accompany it and give a sense of time and place, and so I encourage you to *download it here and read the liner notes*.

Enjoy, or don't, the choice is yours...

Alternatively you can stream it here. Note that SoundCloud doesn't offer fantastic sound quality.

*Extreme and shameless plugging.

Edit: Edited the download link because someone was reporting problems downloading.


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## Mesa

My favourite thing i've heard from you so far! Ptaanptaanptaan is most delightful.

Interesting compositional method, i'll hazard a guess to how it was done: You gave Zappa, Waits, L.Ron Hubbard and Ginger Baker a ham, mushroom and quaalude pizza which they washed down with LSD espressos and locked them in a dimly lit speciality music store?


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## Crudblud

Mesa said:


> My favourite thing i've heard from you so far! Ptaanptaanptaan is most delightful.
> 
> Interesting compositional method, i'll hazard a guess to how it was done: You gave Zappa, Waits, L.Ron Hubbard and Ginger Baker a ham, mushroom and quaalude pizza which they washed down with LSD espressos and locked them in a dimly lit speciality music store?


Thank you! Your guess is close, but I couldn't get Ginger Baker so I had to settle for a ginger cake. Resurrecting Frank was no easy task either, though I got through the process without being sued by his wife. L. Ron's escaped body thetans were surprisingly cooperative once I flashed them a big wad of cash, lucky for me they couldn't tell the difference between Monopoly and legal tender. Tom was already there for reasons unknown.


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## PetrB

Downloading now. May skip out for a slice of pizza and a cup of coffee to go -- seems like they may go well with what bodes post download.


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## PetrB

Downloading now. May skip out for a slice of pizza and a cup of coffee to go -- seems like they may go well with what bodes post download.

Okeedohkee:

This is seriously in your face nasty sounding, in the best way possible. 

Sometimes the arbitrary quality of your choices gets to me, but then you do some gesture soon thereafter which is wholly effective... making the arbitrary stretches, intended or not, more of a relief or a set-up.

The drums solo @ about 12 minutes did not work for me, either as postlude, interlude or coda prior the next section. Felt somewhat the same on the piano interlude prior the flute entry.

But seriously nasty, in the best way possible.... and sometimes even a hair lyric. Nothing much sweetness and light about this one 

Congratulations.

P.s. You are evidence proving a point I like to make often enough. Trained or untrained, some people manage to make music which really seems to communicate something, others, trained or not, just don't. Blush a little if you like, or have to, be grateful, and then forget about it. That quality / ability just can not be taught, no how, no where.


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## Ravndal

This was seriously cool.


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## aleazk

Sarcastic and irreverent. I wanted to shyly say 'hi', and the piece responded to me by licking my face.


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## PetrB

aleazk said:


> Sarcastic and irreverent. I wanted to shyly say 'hi', and the piece responded to me by licking my face.


Of course that was right after walking up to you and without a how-do-you do smelling your crotch. 
Woof-woof. This piece is barely house-trained.

Like I said, nasty and in your face, in a sort of dark yet friendly way...


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## Lunasong

Did you get the idea for bass clarinet from Tomposer?

I'm listening now(Invocacion); amusing...


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## Crudblud

PetrB said:


> Downloading now. May skip out for a slice of pizza and a cup of coffee to go -- seems like they may go well with what bodes post download.
> 
> Okeedohkee:
> 
> This is seriously in your face nasty sounding, in the best way possible.
> 
> Sometimes the arbitrary quality of your choices gets to me, but then you do some gesture soon thereafter which is wholly effective... making the arbitrary stretches, intended or not, more of a relief or a set-up.
> 
> The drums solo @ about 12 minutes did not work for me, either as postlude, interlude or coda prior the next section. Felt somewhat the same on the piano interlude prior the flute entry.
> 
> But seriously nasty, in the best way possible.... and sometimes even a hair lyric. Nothing much sweetness and light about this one
> 
> Congratulations.
> 
> P.s. You are evidence proving a point I like to make often enough. Trained or untrained, some people manage to make music which really seems to communicate something, others, trained or not, just don't. Blush a little if you like, or have to, be grateful, and then forget about it. That quality / ability just can not be taught, no how, no where.


Thank you! The last part of your post may be praise too much, but I'll accept it anyway. I'm glad you liked it, I'm just curious as to what you mean by "nasty."



Ravndal said:


> This was seriously cool.


Thanks!



aleazk said:


> Sarcastic and irreverent. I wanted to shyly say 'hi', and the piece responded to me by licking my face.


I'm glad you liked it! I certainly didn't intend much in the way of sarcasm, although friends assure me that sarcasm just comes out me naturally so I suppose I'm not entirely surprised you would find it here.



Lunasong said:


> Did you get the idea for bass clarinet from Tomposer?
> 
> I'm listening now(Invocacion); amusing...


Amusing is good! And no, I started working on this piece some time before Tomposer made that thread. At the time he posted his piece I remember thinking "damn it, now everyone will think I got it from him!"


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## KenOC

Haven't listened to all of it yet, but the part I've heard has absolutely no redeeming social value. I like it!


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## PetrB

Crudblud said:


> Thank you! The last part of your post may be praise too much, but I'll accept it anyway. I'm glad you liked it, I'm just curious as to what you mean by "nasty."
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> I'm glad you liked it! I certainly didn't intend much in the way of sarcasm, although friends assure me that sarcasm just comes out me naturally so I suppose I'm not entirely surprised you would find it here.
> 
> Amusing is good! And no, I started working on this piece some time before Tomposer made that thread. At the time he posted his piece I remember thinking "damn it, now everyone will think I got it from him!"


[[ It is just a bass Clarinet (or a virtual one) and no one, at this time, is going to break new ground by using a bass clarinet ]]

It does not at all set out to please, is 'in your face' thumb on nose finger-wagging ill mannered, etc. The shape and rhythm of much of it I think meant again to confound more polite expectations.

I know you were just writing what you wanted to, but you are within that much smaller convention of those not much concerned with pleasing the multitudes, now are you? Ha. Haaaa. Haaaaaaaa.


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## Mahlerian

Seriously entertaining music, somewhere poised between mock-ingratiating and raspberry-blowingly irreverent. I wish I could hear it played by real musicians, just to give it that extra bit of bite that can come from dialogue, but it's great as is. Congratulations on the inventiveness of this piece.

Edit: The bits for clarinet near the end remind me of a parody of the Tristan prelude, and as much as I love Wagner, it made me laugh out loud all the same.


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## Mesa

For the sake of Crudblud's ego, i should provide some balance...


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## Crudblud

Mesa said:


> For the sake of Crudblud's ego, i should provide some balance...


This is actually what I was expecting the reaction to be!


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## Crudblud

Mahlerian said:


> Seriously entertaining music, somewhere poised between mock-ingratiating and raspberry-blowingly irreverent. I wish I could hear it played by real musicians, just to give it that extra bit of bite that can come from dialogue, but it's great as is. Congratulations on the inventiveness of this piece.
> 
> Edit: The bits for clarinet near the end remind me of a parody of the Tristan prelude, and as much as I love Wagner, it made me laugh out loud all the same.


I'm glad to hear that you liked it, and to hear that it made you laugh, too.

A performance would definitely be interesting to see/hear, but I imagine that even the most technically accomplished musicians would have serious problems trying to perform it as is, due in no small part to the physical limitations of the instruments. I would gladly work with someone to produce a performing version similar to what oogabooha did with Salami XIII, but that only required a few minor alterations, this would probably need a lot more work.

Also, I find it amusing that people keep using the word "seriously" here.


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## hreichgott

I love it. And I could even dance to it. I found this one more relatable than Salami XIII but I think they're both good compositions.


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## Kieran

Hey Crudblud,

Can't believe it when you say you have no training in composition. I mean, I believe it but it's hard to believe too, you know what I mean?

Total layman here, wouldn't get all the cultural parodies and references in the work, so _Tall Dances_ was like an assault to the senses, jumpy and mean, noirish; a perfect introduction to the mind-world of Mogongo. This attracted me, because although on first spin it's the least accessible, it's actually very image-laden and fraught. That's how it seemed to me. A huge wit but also dark. I don't know what Harry looks like, but I bet he sees well in the dark.

My musical terminology is usually confined to words like "innit?" and "majestic", and "it's _The 'Gangerl, _innit? Majestic!" but the next two movements really complete the first one, if you know what I mean. Jazzy and down in the basement, I could almost smell the sweating lounge they were performed in, frantic musicians and a terrified audience, but really accomplished. And yeah, I could sense The Wink, but it wasn't laden on so heavy that it cost the music anything, which is not easy to do. I like it in Mozart, that ability for the music to be both grand and mocking the pretensions of grandeur _at one and the same time._

The opening to _Ersa Pamungae_ is fabulous and it moves across the floor with frozen ease. It's my favourite piece, alongside the _Big Dance Number._

It's great music, an evocative world well-populated. That's what's so attractive to me, it's like new culture and a rush of old, both together. Strange new music, but it puts me in mind of old movies, angular sexy dancers and dark, lively shadows.

Fair play to ya! :tiphat:


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## Crudblud

Thanks for the detailed review, Kieran. I'm glad to see you actually read the notes, based on responses from you and people elsewhere it seems like they had the intended effect. A lot of the images you're referring to are quite close to how I visualise it as well. The parodies and allusions just sort of found their way in there on their own, it was only in the past couple of weeks or so that I looked at it and realised that it had a "worn and old" feel to it, so I started researching musical trends of the '40s and '50s and sure enough Broadway was in its golden age right around that time.

I don't know that there was that much of a _wink_, I'm being sincere in every bar, but then I'm not really sure if that's what you mean. The music certainly has its fair share of goofy and/or cheesy moments, though.

As for my lack of training, it's entirely true but nothing to brag about (neither is getting a masters degree, in my opinion) it's just how I ended up approaching music, and fortunately it seems to have worked out okay. I think the most important things for any composer to develop are a craftsman like work ethic and a good intuition, whether that comes to them through enrolling at Juilliard or messing around at home is irrelevant.


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## Kieran

_Wink _was probably the wrong word - _a wink_ would redolent of something cheesy going down and a small cadre of inbreeds being cognizant and wryly nodding at the humour. No, it's not a wink, but it's a controlled knowing of the humour and potential for humour, maybe. What I got from it was that you were _referring _to something musical, but in a witty way. Anyway, words don't describe music too well, eh? My ones don't, but I enjoyed the music and listened a few times today. I think also, as an idea, the creation of characters and their histories and so on, is a great one and you pulled that off too. So it works in a few ways, at different levels, which is no mean feat.

Has the dedicatee shown up yet? I'm sure they enjoyed it too. If not - show 'em this thread!


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## ptr

Posted in the Current listen thread:

*Cazazza Dan* - Frozen Bob's Estranged Wife (*COR*)









The Harry Mogongo Experience

Awesome Dan! My 73 year old mum said; what'sa yo playin', this was some really fun music! I agree!! (Had to make some cover art, just hate those generic things that the software produce when no picture is available... Hope I'm pardoned for it!  )

/ptr


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## Crudblud

ptr said:


> Hope I'm pardoned for it!  )


Don't worry, anyone who uses images of rock fish in their home made Cazazza Dan album covers is immediately pardoned.


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## aleazk

lol, ptr, that's really great!. I love it!.


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## Manxfeeder

When you make a performing version, I want to play the bass clarinet part. It feels like John Coltrane trying to emulate Eric Dolphy and ending up in Anthony Braxton's living room. Or maybe I'm just tripping.


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## PetrB

Manxfeeder said:


> When you make a performing version, I want to play the bass clarinet part. It feels like John Coltrane trying to emulate Eric Dolphy and ending up in Anthony Braxton's living room. Or maybe I'm just tripping.


I think you're going to need several clarinets, bring along the family and friends, maybe ask that soprano Eb babe alone just in case -- a transcription, even re-writing a bit, will probably be in order. I'm sure Crudblud will keep you on file. I'd love to hear a performing version, too, though a special harpsichord will have to be built, or another bit of writing maybe including a prepared piano, maybe toss in a toy piano, what the hey.


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## Crudblud

PetrB said:


> I think you're going to need several clarinets, bring along the family and friends, maybe ask that soprano Eb babe alone just in case -- a transcription, even re-writing a bit, will probably be in order. I'm sure Crudblud will keep you on file. I'd love to hear a performing version, too, though a special harpsichord will have to be built, or another bit of writing maybe including a prepared piano, maybe toss in a toy piano, what the hey.


It would be very difficult, the bass clarinet part would have to be split to at least two instruments, which would be hell in terms of being able to get smooth transitions between instruments at speed. I think the violin might be the only thing left untouched, although I'd need a violinist on hand to give advice since I have no idea if all those extended glissandi are playable.


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## Manxfeeder

Crudblud said:


> It would be very difficult, the bass clarinet part would have to be split to at least two instruments, which would be hell in terms of being able to get smooth transitions between instruments at speed.


Yeah, but I can dream.

Transitions do get tricky. I remember one job I did in college where I had to switch between alto sax, baritone sax, flute, and clarinet all in the same piece. I ended up having the baritone sitting on my lap because there was no time to park it on its stand.


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## Crudblud

Manxfeeder said:


> Yeah, but I can dream.
> 
> Transitions do get tricky. I remember one job I did in college where I had to switch between alto sax, baritone sax, flute, and clarinet all in the same piece. I ended up having the baritone sitting on my lap because there was no time to park it on its stand.


I was thinking more about having two musicians on two instruments, alternatively I suppose some sort of makeshift Rahsaan Roland Kirk type arrangement might be possible. The problem with the second solution is that there are literally runs from one extreme of the range to the other without stopping, there's no way to do that without having to drastically alter the flow. There is of course the insanely expensive option of commissioning someone to make an "omniclarinet" that could handle the full range of the part entirely on its own, then there's just the issue of being able to play it correctly, no mean feat but infinitely more doable than the other two options.


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## hreichgott

I appreciate that Crudblud was willing to be so upfront about the fact that this was written for pretend instruments only.


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## PetrB

Crudblud said:


> I was thinking more about having two musicians on two instruments, alternatively I suppose some sort of makeshift Rahsaan Roland Kirk type arrangement might be possible. The problem with the second solution is that there are literally runs from one extreme of the range to the other without stopping, there's no way to do that without having to drastically alter the flow. There is of course the insanely expensive option of commissioning someone to make an "omniclarinet" that could handle the full range of the part entirely on its own, then there's just the issue of being able to play it correctly, no mean feat but infinitely more doable than the other two options.


A standard way to handle that in orchestrating is to overlap the two instruments: during the overlap, both are playing unison. The thing one must know is where to place that overlap, so the timbre, and mixed, are smooth -- in one part of the range for each, the timbres blend seamlessly and the transition is very smooth; section players and any practiced in ensemble playing quite accustomed to executing this kind of overlap / hand-over of the material.

Next, if pros are doing this, symphony pros, the moment a salaried union player picks up instrument no.2, they get time and a half wages for the evening (at least U.S. American union musicians; likely a similar rule is in effect for those union ploayers abroad) and that is a practical consideration one needs keep in mind.

This masterfully orchestrated arpeggio, with the luxury of a full orchestra to achieve it, is a good example of a lot of rapid overlapping. Bartok, Bluebeard's Castle; Door 6 (the sea of tears)


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## PetrB

Manxfeeder said:


> Yeah, but I can dream.
> 
> Transitions do get tricky. I remember one job I did in college where I had to switch between alto sax, baritone sax, flute, and clarinet all in the same piece. I ended up having the baritone sitting on my lap because there was no time to park it on its stand.


Wow -- if that had been a union gig for a symphonic player, that is time and a half union wages times three


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## Crudblud

hreichgott said:


> I appreciate that Crudblud was willing to be so upfront about the fact that this was written for pretend instruments only.


I'm upfront about the fact that these are not physical instruments being played on a stage, but I don't think that makes them any less valid as instruments. To me, these virtual or digital instruments are a new family with new capabilities and limitations presenting unique possibilities and challenges to a composer, it's a shame that most of the time they end up languishing in some film or game composer's "mock up" studio suite. Of course, "instrument" is an inaccurate term, they're really patches, but it's a fair trade-off for the sake of communication.


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## Manxfeeder

Crudblud said:


> I'm upfront about the fact that these are not physical instruments being played on a stage, but I don't think that makes them any less valid as instruments. To me, these virtual or digital instruments are a new family with new capabilities and limitations presenting unique possibilities and challenges to a composer, it's a shame that most of the time they end up languishing in some film or game composer's "mock up" studio suite.


I think Edgard Varese, among others, would agree with you.


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## hreichgott

I think computers are definitely a valid way of making music, but they're totally different from instruments or performers. 

So I think of the MIDI patches as pretend instruments in the same way that when I accompany a musical theatre rehearsal, the piano and I are a pretend orchestra.


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## BurningDesire

Brilliant piece Crudblud  Silly and clever, nasty and beautiful ^_^


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## moody

I had to wait awhile because as you know I am hardly a modernist (?) but I can tell you that your work is one of the most interesting things I've ever heard. I was mightily impressed--well done!


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## Crudblud

hreichgott said:


> I think computers are definitely a valid way of making music, but they're totally different from instruments or performers.
> 
> So I think of the MIDI patches as pretend instruments in the same way that when I accompany a musical theatre rehearsal, the piano and I are a pretend orchestra.


I think we have a different definition of "pretend" then. These are not pretending to be physical instruments, they are themselves.



moody said:


> I had to wait awhile because as you know I am hardly a modernist (?) but I can tell you that your work is one of the most interesting things I've ever heard. I was mightily impressed--well done!


Well thank you, moody, I'm quite surprised that you liked it, but pleasantly so.

Edit: Lest anyone think so; I'm not being rude to BD, we already had a lengthy discussion in private about the piece.


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## EddieRUKiddingVarese

Maybe superimposing the two clips together- referring to Mesa's comments here from post 14
, even more balance or better still throw some sirens in here and there and give it a Varesian element.

More seriously almost, thought Frozen Bob's interesting and like it alot- reminds me of some elements of Lumpy Gravy but with a more jazzy feel.


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## ricardo_jvc6

When you made this song, I thought. "This is a joke a very lame joke." Now when I hear it. I laughed all the way through. The Bass Clarinet was my favourite. You really captured the mood. :lol:


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## Crudblud

ricardo_jvc6 said:


> When you made this song, I thought. "This is a joke a very lame joke." Now when I hear it. I laughed all the way through. The Bass Clarinet was my favourite. You really captured the mood. :lol:


I'm confused; do you think it's good or bad?


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## aszkid

Let me tell you, i actually enjoyed a lot Bob's Big Dance Number.

Well now really, that clarinet start drives me mad.


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## clavichorder

This has a lot of personality and creative wit. And you must be seriously adept at the program involved to get it to sound like that. It could very well be a 'real deal' art film soundtrack. How long did this take?


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## Crudblud

clavichorder said:


> This has a lot of personality and creative wit. And you must be seriously adept at the program involved to get it to sound like that. It could very well be a 'real deal' art film soundtrack. How long did this take?


Thanks clavi, I appreciate it.

I recall starting it around February, but I was not working on it every day, in fact I'm pretty sure weeks went by when I didn't touch it at all, then some days I would just get an impulse, like I knew that working on it right there and then would yield progress, and that's basically how it went from February through to June. There were days when I would beat myself up for not getting it done fast enough or force myself to work on it in the wrong frame of mind, almost always resulting in crap that got cut out either right there on the spot or later on, but on the whole it was quite a laid back working process.


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## ricardo_jvc6

Crudblud said:


> I'm confused; do you think it's good or bad?


I found it great.


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## Crudblud

In order to save the other thread from turning into a thread about me, I thought I'd shift the discussion between Aramis, tdc and myself here. (tdc's post quoted merely for reference, this is a response to Aramis)



tdc said:


> I don't think your music is far outside the western tradition. It is quite unusual that a composer of your ability knows little theory or reads music, but that knowledge is not really of importance when listening to your compositions which I think are closest to western modern art music. I hear influences from many classical composers in the pieces I've heard of yours such as Ligeti, Zappa and Xenakis.





Aramis said:


> Yes, Zappa is clearly in his music. He adopts certain feeling of humour and eccentricity, but when you can see eccentricity coming from easily identified influence, it gets sort of artifical kind of eccentrity. In some way I think Crudblud's works are original in highly unoriginal way.


The range and depth of my musical experience as a listener comes from Zappa, he introduced me to classical music, middle eastern music, free jazz, rhythm and blues etc. and these too have proven to be invaluable influences on my work, but I don't think there is as much of Zappa the composer in there as you seem to suggest. Much of the humour in my music is the same kind of stuff that I would imagine to myself to make me laugh when I was five years old, it has of course been tempered over time by other things in the past 18 years, but it's still mostly what has developed naturally in me.

As for being original in an unoriginal way, I must say I don't really understand the comment.


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## tdc

I'll follow Crudblud's lead and post this quote over here.



Aramis said:


> Yes, Zappa is clearly in his music. He adopts certain feeling of humour and eccentricity, but when you can see eccentricity coming from easily identified influence, it gets sort of artifical kind of eccentrity. In some way I think Crudblud's works are original in highly unoriginal way.


I've listened closely to 3 of Crudblud's works and personally I only heard what I perceived to be a lot of Zappa influence in one of them - _Sailin' Tuns_. The others showed me that Crudblud is definitely not a one trick pony, and can also do other styles very well. I do think Crudblud should continue to refine his own distinctive compositional voice, but all around I consider him one of the most gifted composers that has posted in this section of TC. I should add I also enjoy the composers who are working in more traditional styles here such as yourself, Musician, and Steven O'Brian, and look forward to hearing more from you in the future as well.


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## Aramis

> As for being original in an unoriginal way, I must say I don't really understand the comment.


Then let me explain. Music such as you create can easily make impression of being very original and unusual and that impression is often based on the fact that it sounds diffrent than the "usual" classical music, not because it is truely independent and unlike anything else. In case of TC and this particular section, this contrast is huge. In simple words, it's very easy to detect author's influence when you hear Steven O'Brien but much more difficult when the music is written in more free spirited idiom, bordering with musical eccentricity. This causes your music to be seemingly very original. What I meant to say, is that despite this semblance, I belive I can sense deep influence of artists that inspire you in your music and that sometimes you too happen to mime your "heroes". This convinces me that independency and originality of your music is not that extremely greater than in case of us, poor things, who are similiarly inspired by artists influence of which is more readable.


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## Crudblud

Aramis said:


> Then let me explain. Music such as you create can easily make impression of being very original and unusual and that impression is often based on the fact that it sounds diffrent than the "usual" classical music, not because it is truely independent and unlike anything else. In case of TC and this particular section, this contrast is huge. In simple words, it's very easy to detect author's influence when you hear Steven O'Brien but much more difficult when the music is written in more free spirited idiom, bordering with musical eccentricity. This causes your music to be seemingly very original. What I meant to say, is that despite this semblance, I belive I can sense deep influence of artists that inspire you in your music and that sometimes you too happen to mime your "heroes". This convinces me that independency and originality of your music is not that extremely greater than in case of us, poor things, who are similiarly inspired by artists influence of which is more readable.


It seems to me that your problems are less to do with my music and more to do with the warm reception it gets from certain members, the same members who may offer not so favourable opinions of yours and others' music. I can see how this discrepancy might make you angry, but I have no control over what people here think, they are free to like or dislike my music as they please.

There is no "truly independent" music, everything comes from something that came before it and so on. However, I do have a nigh on impossible task set out for me when asked exactly what kind of music I create, I can think of no genre into which it really fits. That doesn't make it unlike anything else, but I think the general character of the music is not particularly reminiscent of other composers I like, each of whom had their own tropes which to the best of my knowledge I am not aping.

I heard O'Brien's _Piano Sonata No. 5_ a while back, to me it seemed somewhat free-spirited in its way, the clearest difference I can see between our work is that we obviously come from different musical backgrounds. Undoubtedly we are both dipping into the pools of old music we have stored in our memories, but it happens to be different music, his being that which many people here are quite familiar with and mine not so much.

Could you give me some examples of mimicry in the music of mine you have heard? Aside from a couple of blatant references I can't really think of any in music that I have posted here, though my older music from 2007-2011 was largely derivative in the manner you suggest. That's not to say this mimicry isn't there, of course, but I'm interested to know some specific examples of it.


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## Aramis

> It seems to me that your problems are less to do with my music and more to do with the warm reception it gets from certain members, the same members who may offer not so favourable opinions of yours and others' music.


Of course that is a factor, I don't think I need to be ashamed of admitting that - when artist has opinion on works by another person involved in creating the same kind of art, there is always - or most often - a relation of this nature. I don't feel that my comment was anything like vicious attack of jealousy though, I hope it's not perceived as such.



> Could you give me some examples of mimicry in the music of mine you have heard?


I must say it would be very hard. The reason is what I have already written, the mimicry is case of conservative composer can easily by pointed out in elements such as harmonic progression etc. In case of music that you make, this is much more ethereal - I can't point out chord progression in your piece and say "these chords are typic harmonic scheme of the zappian period". Your works contain much of musical humour - something perceived by SENSE of humour. If how you handle this is modeled after somebody else, I can hardly bring it down to some concrete. For example, I feel that the very title of composition which this thread concerns seems to come from Zappa-influenced mind. But that's only how I feel, even if I'm confident that my feeling is right.

So I do admit, I can't think of a way to take particular passage of your work and by objective arguments actually prove the influence.


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## Crudblud

Aramis said:


> Of course that is a factor, I don't think I need to be ashamed of admitting that - when artist has opinion on works by another person involved in creating the same kind of art, there is always - or most often - a relation of this nature. I don't feel that my comment was anything like vicious attack of jealousy though, I hope it's not perceived as such.


Not at all, I'm just trying to establish the dynamic of the conversation.


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## aleazk

It's true that Crudblud's music is expressly irreverent. And that this gives to his music a particular aesthetics.
But I think that Crudblud's music is much more than that. 
In my personal case, the aesthetics of his music is not only the thing which I find attractive. Instead, I find his craft and the inner workings to be the most interesting part.
Crudblud has that something which is required to be a good composer: discernment about which musical phrase or gesture should follow another.
Anybody can have interesting ideas, styles, etc. But the art is in the way in which you combine these things to form a coherent whole.
When you make a musical gesture, you have to "resolve" it with another gesture. Crudblud is amazing at this.
All great composers, from all times, were good at this, from Beethoven to Boulez. Their music is very gestural, and their gestures are very effective.
Composer Gerard Grisey said, "Well, you know, I have very often been to juries for composition all around the world. When you look at the scores of young composers, very often you don't have time to look at the scores completely. But the most important moment is the first change. The composer comes and establishes an idea that everybody understands. Everybody can have an idea. Everybody. The problem is to have a second one. This is a greater problem. And the major problem is to know where and when to bring in this second idea. And very often, you realize after a few pages that he is not a musician. He does the wrong thing. You have this feeling." (http://www.angelfire.com/music2/davidbundler/grisey.html)
It's one of the key things I judge in a composition.
Pieces like this one, Night Music, and Hello, are very successful in this aspect.


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