# Bartok 'symphonic best works



## DenisMarie

I am trying to discover Bartok these days.
Could you please give me some advise about what is the best especially as for symphonic works are concerned ?

Thanks a lot !


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## itywltmt

Music for Strings, Percussion and Celesta
Concerto for Orchestra
Voilin Concerto no. 2


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## Aksel

The Dance Suite is rather smashing.


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## Ukko

It's easy to 'discover' Bartók. Listen to the Concerto for Orchestra; the Divertimento; the 2nd Violin Concerto (the 1st is a youthful paean to love, which he and its 'target' let lie). You won't understand much about his music from those, but they are easy*. You are looking for easy, yes?

The most direct path to Bartók is via the piano music - not including the first two concertos though; without 'background' they can blow you off course. 



*there is more there than first meets the ear... but it works even if you don't notice it.


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## starthrower

In addition to the works already mentioned, some other fine pieces include:

Concerto For Two Pianos, Percussion, and Orchestra
Cantata Profana/The Wooden Prince

I prefer the DG recordings with Pierre Boulez.

As for the 2nd Violin Concerto, it features one of the most beautiful 
opening themes you're likely to hear.


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## Nix

Concerto for Orchestra and his 3rd piano concerto are probably the most accessible of his orchestral masterpieces. From there move onto the 2nd violin concerto and Music for Strings, Percussion, and Celesta- these will require multiple listenings, but I promise you won't be let down. 

The Violin Concerto #2, is my favorite Bartok piece so far, and my favorite 20th century violin concerto (though I've heard good things about the Berg- still have to listen to it!)


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## Sid James

Good advice above, can't add to it (regarding symphonic/orchestral music).

A word of general advice, if I may, regarding listening to Bartok. A lot of people notice the "dissonance" or basically the loud banging or clanging bits, but don't notice his very solid use of counterpoint - a lot of it comes across to me as a kind of "modern" take on the "Baroque" & "Classical" eras. Perhaps the best example is the finale of the _Concerto for Orchestra _which is a kind of fugue. Things like J.S. Bach's fugues & other traditional contrapuntal forms influenced Bartok just as strongly, if not more, as the more modern and experimental trends of his own time, imo (of course, his pioneering work with Kodaly in collecting and compiling the folk musics of the South-East European region, was also a huge factor)...


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## elgar's ghost

The music from The Miraculous Mandarin and The Wooden Prince (perhaps it should have been sub-titled 'The Wooden Plot' given the banality of the story) is pretty accessible without being too 'by numbers'. Then progress to some of the more paprika-sprinkled works as mentioned above.


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## Delicious Manager

Nobody has yet mentioned Bartók's stunning one-act opera _Duke Bluebeard's Castle_ - a chilling and evocative work with only two characters.

Although the easiest with which to get to grips, the Concerto for Orchestra and Third Piano Concerto are watered-down Bartók, written for the ultra-conservative audiences in the USA after he fled there from his Nazi-occupied native Hungary in 1940. Sadly, a pale shadow of his earlier groundbreaking music.


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## Ukko

Delicious Manager said:


> Although the easiest with which to get to grips, the Concerto for Orchestra and Third Piano Concerto are watered-down Bartók, written for the ultra-conservative audiences in the USA after he fled there from his Nazi-occupied native Hungary in 1940. Sadly, a pale shadow of his earlier groundbreaking music.


You are wrong there, DM. The CfO is a masterpiece of 'layers'. I have found at least three of them; the middle layer is (I'm guessing here) pretty close to an 'acid trip'. The third layer is a fascinating study in the effects of orchestral colors - the Rite of Spring is kindergarten in comparison.

The 3rd Piano Concerto is toned down some, but if you pay attention, stuff is going on.

Bartók didn't sell out, he managed to provide 'something for everybody'.


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## Sid James

Delicious Manager said:


> ...Although the easiest with which to get to grips, the Concerto for Orchestra and Third Piano Concerto are watered-down Bartók, written for the ultra-conservative audiences in the USA after he fled there from his Nazi-occupied native Hungary in 1940. Sadly, a pale shadow of his earlier groundbreaking music.


I'd actually question whether his earlier music was more "groundbreaking" than his later stuff (done in the USA - we're talking here of the Concerto for Orch., the 3rd piano concerto & the viola concerto, right?). Apart from things like his first three string quartets &_ The Miraculous Mandarin _ballet music, which veer on the "atonal," I think Bartok was actually a traditionalist at heart, but with a strongly modern tinge. As I said, traditional techniques like counterpoint & sonata form were at the heart of much of his music. To my knowledge, unlike quite a few of his contemporaries, Bartok's music was not banned by the Nazis in occupied Europe. He protested against this, he sent a letter saying his music should be banned as well, in "solidarity" with the others. Although the Nazis reasons for banning music was not consistent & quite rubbery - some of it based on the Jewish "ethnicity" of certain composers, but other times they banned "full blooded" Germans like Hindemith for political/ideological reasons - they saw Bartok's music as kind of folksy & maybe quite accessible for the masses. So it had their tick of approval (they had a similar view of Sibelius, Hitler adored this guy's music). Bottom line is that basically Bartok was more a traditionalist than radical in terms of his most popular works from the inter-war years. He jumped on the Neo-Classical bandwagon, bringing to it his own individual verve and flair. He did employ the serial (12 note) technique on occassion (most prominently in the 3rd theme & variations movt. in the 2nd violin concerto) but he did it in "tonal" way. Things like his _Mikrocosmos _piano studies & the solo violin sonata aim to address old techniques and develop them in a way that is more evolutionary than revolutionary, imo. He can maybe be compared to guys like Janacek, Bartok was quite unique & individual, there is (never has been) any Bartok "schools."

But apart from technical/stylistic changes/differences between the music he did in Europe & later in the USA, the big difference that strikes me with those later works that he showed his personal side a bit more in those, his homesickness, his concerns for the world at large & with a touch of humour and optimism, even though he was quite ill (eg. the cheeky jibe at Shostakovich's Leningrad Symphony in the Concerto for Orch.). It's these human aspects that may well by why those later works are quite popular with a broad range of listeners today...


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## Ukko

Hmm... maybe it's a BC thing. Bax and Delius and Bartók in one sodden lump; with haggis?


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## Nix

Delicious Manager said:


> Sadly, a pale shadow of his earlier groundbreaking music.


No not really. Maybe a little less inspired, but certainly not a pale shadow. The Concerto for Orchestra is more of an expose on Bartok techniques- dark flashy orchestration with a Hungarian flair. The piece is probably shallower then his other orchestral works, but makes up for it in sheer vibrance and enthusiasm. One thing to note is that Bartok hadn't been writing much before this piece- this was the one that opened the flood gates so to speak.

The 3rd Piano Concerto was written for his wife, at a time when he knew he was going to die. Bartok wanted to give his wife (who was a concert pianist) something to play so she could sustain a living, and so wrote her something easier to play. The piece is certainly harmonically simpler then his other works, but I can't recall any other compositions by him that are as human as this one. This piece is a gift and farewell to the person he loved most in the world. A flawed work maybe, but not a pale shadow.


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## Tomposer

Bartok when writing the Concerto for Orchestra (and also Music for Strings P and C) was relying on his vast repository of techniques collected over a lifetime. Keep in mind also that at this point in his life he was feeling under valued, and a little disillusioned with European snobbishness about modernism. So these pieces are a true synthesis, taking place near the end of his life and career. Inasmuch as a very few have offered rather feeble derision for what they see as a surrender to populism, the pieces have gained respect from audiences, critiques and other composers the world over. So make your own mind up  . 

I was going to link to some youtube but my favourite one has been taken down


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## DenisMarie

Thank you so much for all your propositions : it's a marvel, especially :
Concerto 2 Pianos Percussions
Concerto Viola
Divertimento Orchestre
Concerto for orchestra
Violin Concerto 2 & 3
Music for Strings, Percussion and Celesta
Dance Suite
and Wooden Prince...


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## kanonathena

Too bad many people think Stravinsky is a better composer. Compared to bartok, the guy is a minimalist. bartok got the layer of bach and flow of mozart plus something animal yet fragile.

His music has a crystalline nature to it, a crystal shrouded in darkness, heartbreaking. unlike mozart which is a crystal in light.


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## tdc

While I don't necessarily agree that some of Bartok's later works are watered down, I too have wondered why _Bluebeard's Castle_ isn't mentioned more frequently. I am astounded by the genius of that work...it is hard to adequately come up with words to explain it...the best I can do is the orchestral movements while layered and complex are written in a way so that the orchestra functions as a single powerful instrument - not a collection of individual instruments. There is such a powerful cohesion there, and a multitude of new sound possibilities emerge under this framework. I don't think these possibilities have been fully explored to this day.


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## Ukko

tdc said:


> While I don't necessarily agree that some of Bartok's later works are watered down, I too have wondered why _Bluebeard's Castle_ isn't mentioned more frequently. I am astounded by the genius of that work...it is hard to adequately come up with words to explain it...the best I can do is the orchestral movements while layered and complex are written in a way so that the orchestra functions as a single powerful instrument - not a collection of individual instruments. There is such a powerful cohesion there, and a multitude of new sound possibilities emerge under this framework. I don't think these possibilities have been fully explored to this day.


Yep, it's an amazing work in several aspects, including the orchestration. That uncanny cohesion reminds me of Beethoven's orchestration in the middle movement of his 4th piano concerto; but Bartók has more time for development and layering.

The general sense of the plot, as coordinated and illuminated in voice and music, is very powerful emotionally; I was strongly drawn in when I heard the recording with Norman. She doesn't do 'submissive' convincingly anyway, and she wasn't required to here. Wow. Only an understanding of the 'history' prevented me from expecting her to kick Bluebeard in the gonads and exit the castle.

See Alma, I_ can_ appreciate opera!


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## starthrower

DenisMarie said:


> Thank you so much for all your propositions : it's a marvel, especially :
> Concerto 2 Pianos Percussions
> Concerto Viola
> Divertimento Orchestre
> Concerto for orchestra
> Violin Concerto 2 & 3
> Music for Strings, Percussion and Celesta
> Dance Suite
> and Wooden Prince...


I'm beginning to think the way to listen to Bartok is with the Hungarian musicians. There's a nice box set on the Nimbus label.
http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/r/Nimbus/NI1771 You can find this at Amazon for around 25 dollars. 
Also, get a used copy of the out of print Sony disc of Gyorgy Sandor's performances of the 3 Piano Concertos. This is a magnificent CD!http://www.amazon.com/Piano-Concert...=sr_1_2?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1315688391&sr=1-2


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## Ukko

Congratulations! You've just got started.

The _Concerto_ for Two Pianos & Percussion is a toning down/popularization of the_ Sonata_ for Two Pianos & Percussion, which is really _all_ percussion. The 1st piano concerto is a study for 'tuned percussion' (the piano) and orchestral response. The 2nd piano concerto slightly moderates the percussive aspects, to improve the soloist/orchestral melding.

The string quartets, beginning with #3, are set-points in his compositional career. They aren't easy, but they are worth working on. The first two string quartets are growth/transitional; interesting, but the Bartók 'student' probably ought to come back to them, not start with them.

That Divertimento you mention may be the 'sneakiest' of Bartók's works. If you listen to it several times, you may 'get' something more with every hearing.

What? Me a Bartókian?

:tiphat:


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## myaskovsky2002

itywltmt said:


> Music for Strings, Percussion and Celesta
> Concerto for Orchestra
> Voilin Concerto no. 2


Absolutely! Excellent choice!

Martin


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## myaskovsky2002

Hilltroll72 said:


> Congratulations! You've just got started.
> 
> The _Concerto_ for Two Pianos & Percussion is a toning down/popularization of the_ Sonata_ for Two Pianos & Percussion, which is really _all_ percussion. The 1st piano concerto is a study for 'tuned percussion' (the piano) and orchestral response. The 2nd piano concerto slightly moderates the percussive aspects, to improve the soloist/orchestral melding.
> 
> The string quartets, beginning with #3, are set-points in his compositional career. They aren't easy, but they are worth working on. The first two string quartets are growth/transitional; interesting, but the Bartók 'student' probably ought to come back to them, not start with them.
> 
> That Divertimento you mention may be the 'sneakiest' of Bartók's works. If you listen to it several times, you may 'get' something more with every hearing.
> 
> What? Me a Bartókian?
> 
> :tiphat:


I was the most Bartokian when I was a teenager. I love the sonata for 2 pianos and percussion and I don't like the orchestral version...I think it is less powerful...If you like a jazz kind, I'd suggest the contrast for piano, violin and clarinete..the divertimento is lovely...BUT if you want to star with Bartók. There is a WAY to follow:

Start with when he had the Liszt inflence: Suite no. 1, suite no. 2, Kossuth, the wooden prince...You feel comfortable? Try his opera (Keksakallu Herceg Vara) and the wonderful mandarin...His first two piano concertos...string quartet no. 5 in my humble opinion is the very best of his quartets.

Finally buy all...










LOL...as I did.

I have all Bartok...all many times. LOL

I almost forgot....

Martin


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## Billy

I like the Wooden Prince very much. It is a good start to listening to Bartok.


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