# Audience Engagement



## JeffD (May 8, 2017)

I think Thile has a point:


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## Animal the Drummer (Nov 14, 2015)

Not convinced. As it happens I like to genre-hop myself when I play the piano, but where's his evidence for the idea that many more musicians are going to do so, and do it publicly? As far as his view that classical audiences should behave like rock audiences is concerned, I'm afraid I flatly disagree. At a rock concert, audience reaction is part of the atmosphere and the occasion, but sorry - at a classical concert I'm there to concentrate on the music, not some random audience member's enthusiasm overflow.


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## eugeneonagain (May 14, 2017)

Animal the Drummer said:


> at a classical concert I'm there to concentrate on the music, not some random audience member's enthusiasm overflow.


This is a late Victorian development though or likely the behaviour of the chamber music audience being transferred to the concert hall. Throughout history concerts had demonstrative audiences.


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## bharbeke (Mar 4, 2013)

He definitely raises some good points. The blending of genres is in its infancy, but it is surely happening. Check out all the metal covers of classical and vice versa on YouTube for some examples.

I share in wishing for a little more outlet and expression to be considered acceptable among classical music concert audiences again. At rock, pop, and country concerts, there are ways of engaging with the music that are agreeable and those that are not. Whenever the topic is brought up in regards to classical music, it feels like opponents of greater audience enthusiasm/engagement are seeing it as all-or-nothing allowed with no spectrum of behaviors. Someone can cheer if they feel so moved between movements, and that does not mean that they will be rowdy during the largo section.


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## Tallisman (May 7, 2017)

Rock, for me, is reserved for euphoric headbanging. Classical, for me, is reserved for keeping any urge to get more physically and emotionally involved inside in order to intellectually engage. I can't say I have any logical justification for that behaviour. It just seems to make sense and has worked for me so far.


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## Janspe (Nov 10, 2012)

I find the idea of audiences making spontaneous noise during a concert so puzzling - I don't honestly care if our modern day concert silence is an invention and if it wasn't always so; *why* would one want to make extra noise while the performers are playing!? I just don't get it. I sometimes wait for years to hear a certain piece/performer at my local hall, and pay (sometimes quite a lot!) to get there - so I make zero apologies for expecting people to just concentrate on the music and shut up. I might not hear the piece live again in _years_ so I want to hear every goddamn pianissimo and contrapuntal line as clearly as possible.


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## eugeneonagain (May 14, 2017)

Janspe said:


> I find the idea of audiences making spontaneous noise during a concert so puzzling - I don't honestly care if our modern day concert silence is an invention and if it wasn't always so; *why* would one want to make extra noise while the performers are playing!? I just don't get it. I sometimes wait for years to hear a certain piece/performer at my local hall, and pay (sometimes quite a lot!) to get there - so I make zero apologies for expecting people to just concentrate on the music and shut up. I might not hear the piece live again in _years_ so I want to hear every goddamn pianissimo and contrapuntal line as clearly as possible.


Maybe that's a problem of scarce performances then. Let's say you, and most of the audience, had heard the piece a few times and were confident of hearing it again by the the same or a similarly good orchestra, it may encourage you to exclaim at all the great bits.

Personally, I am a sit and listen person, but there have been times when I've been so enthralled by the music that I would like to get up out of the chair and wave a fist in time with the music (e.g. the soaring middle of Mars from _the Planets_) like someone at a rock concert. It doesn't have to be a vocal demonstration..


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## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

eugeneonagain said:


> Let's say you, and most of the audience, had heard the piece a few times and were confident of hearing it again by the the same or a similarly good orchestra, it may encourage you to exclaim at all the great bits.


Shucks, I can't even handle the audience coughing.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Fine, let's loosen up a little. I like to conduct discreetly along with music. That shouldn't bother you. Likewise your head-bobbing or foot-tapping are unlikely to disturb me. But regardless of how irrepressibly ebullient "Ging heut' Morgen über's Feld" makes you feel, I came tonight to hear Schubert and Mahler, not to see you demonstrate Tyrolean thigh-slapping or show how your voice compares with Dietrich Fischer-Dieskau's.


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## Resurrexit (Apr 1, 2014)

Woodduck said:


> Fine, let's loosen up a little. I like to conduct discreetly along with music. That shouldn't bother you. Likewise your head-bobbing or foot-tapping are unlikely to disturb me. But regardless of how irrepressibly ebullient "Ging heut' Morgen über's Feld" makes you feel, I came tonight to hear Schubert and Mahler, not to see you demonstrate Tyrolean thigh-slapping or show how your voice compares with Dietrich Fischer-Dieskau's.


I feel like this aspect of pop/rock concerts is actually a negative, not a positive. I recall the rock concerts of my youth consisting of a bunch of drunken idiots running around, slamming into themselves and others and creating a general feeling of animosity in the crowd; couple that with those around me shrieking and/or singing along with the music that was being blasted at such a high volume in order to drown out the "audience engagement" that my ears were left ringing. Not all it's cracked up to be, frankly. I'll take sitting quietly and enjoying the music.

If everyone can sit quietly at the movies without feeling the need to participate, they can sit quietly at a concert without complaining.

After watching the video, I do agree with his point that classical audiences can be too tightly wound and overly enthusiastic to "Shhh!" any little extraneous noise made by someone around them, which is essentially self-defeating, and I always feel sad for the poor soul who doesn't know the etiquette of not clapping in between movements who gets shushed and shamed into stopping.


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## eugeneonagain (May 14, 2017)

I'm inclined to agree with regard to large, ticketed concerts. A lot of different people together with different reasons for coming to see the concert. It's fairly unique that such a large gathering can agree to behave themselves to a reasonable degree. There's sometimes the opportunity for a release though, like at the Last Night of the Proms.

However this is different to more informal music making. There is a string quartet I know who often perform in the summer months in a small church square (which is right next to the house where they rehearse). They intersperse their classical repertoire with a few arrangements of popular songs of all eras and the audience shows appreciation as they play. People walk up and chat to them between playing.I know this likely can't be achieved in the concert hall, but it's much more like when you listen to recordings with other people who feel as strongly as you do about the music and you tend to demonstrate this to one another.

It works best when people are relatively familiar with the material. In the case of a new work it pays to sit and listen carefully. The ability to repeatedly listen to detailed recordings might create an extreme demand for some people; as though they must have the same experience in the concert hall, without interruption as though they are the only listener.


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## JeffD (May 8, 2017)

Its a tough one. I agree pretty strongly with both sides of the argument. I want everyone to sit quietly, and yet I hate suppressing my emotional responses, which in some cases can be pretty strong. I have witnessed people openly weeping at live concerts, and have been on the verge more than a few times myself.

In other interviews I have heard Chris Thile taking up this subject with regard to Bach. He goes on about how dance music has movement in it and encourages movement in us, by design. The implication being that Bach would want us to respond physically. Not disruptively, but not be catatonic.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

eugeneonagain said:


> I'm inclined to agree with regard to large, ticketed concerts. A lot of different people together with different reasons for coming to see the concert. It's fairly unique that such a large gathering can agree to behave themselves to a reasonable degree. There's sometimes the opportunity for a release though, like at the Last Night of the Proms.
> 
> However this is different to more informal music making. There is a string quartet I know who often perform in the summer months in a small church square (which is right next to the house where they rehearse). They intersperse their classical repertoire with a few arrangements of popular songs of all eras and the audience shows appreciation as they play. People walk up and chat to them between playing.I know this likely can't be achieved in the concert hall, but it's much more like when you listen to recordings with other people who feel as strongly as you do about the music and you tend to demonstrate this to one another.
> 
> It works best when people are relatively familiar with the material. In the case of a new work it pays to sit and listen carefully. The ability to repeatedly listen to detailed recordings might create an extreme demand for some people; as though they must have the same experience in the concert hall, without interruption as though they are the only listener.


I attended a marvelous concert of Spanish and Latin American Baroque music during which the audience was encouraged to clap and even vocalize along with the music (Ay! Ay! Ole!). The freedom and spontaneity certainly enhanced the experience. It's great in the right repertoire and setting.


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## Botschaft (Aug 4, 2017)

I think I'm annoyed enough by coughing, mumbling and rustling as it is. On the other hand the general lack of enthusiasm among audiences annoys me almost as much, but then it's probably the main reason for the aforementioned disturbances. I'd say audience engagement is generally best reserved for whenever the music isn't being played.


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## eugeneonagain (May 14, 2017)

Improbus said:


> I'd say audience engagement is generally best reserved for whenever the music *isn't* being played.


I find that baffling. This is about audience engagement with the music and it's not likely to happen when the music isn't playing.


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## Botschaft (Aug 4, 2017)

eugeneonagain said:


> I find that baffling. This is about audience engagement with the music and it's not likely to happen when the music isn't playing.


Well, aren't you clever? How about before or immediately afterwards? But perhaps 'engagement' refers something more specific in this context.


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## Ingélou (Feb 10, 2013)

No - stick to clapping and showing appreciation afterwards.

It's perfectly possible to be engaged, and to sense 'engagement' in fellow audience members while listening quietly to music.

When I taught young children and read them a story I knew they were drinking it all in *precisely* when they were still and quiet.

There is so much pressure on people to *emote* and _*react *_to absolutely everything. I'm not really a fan of letting it all hang out.


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## Johnnie Burgess (Aug 30, 2015)

eugeneonagain said:


> I find that baffling. This is about audience engagement with the music and it's not likely to happen when the music isn't playing.


But they should not make noise so that other people can not hear the music.


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## eugeneonagain (May 14, 2017)

Improbus said:


> Well, aren't you clever? How about before or immediately afterwards? But perhaps 'engagement' refers something more specific in this context.


It does. Reaction and engagement are different words with different meanings. I have no problem at all with the idea of people reserving the discussion of the music before, after or during an interval.



Johnnie Burgess said:


> But they should not make noise so that other people can not hear the music.


See second sentence above and a post I made earlier in this thread.


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## eugeneonagain (May 14, 2017)

Ingélou said:


> When I taught young children and read them a story I knew they were drinking it all in *precisely* when they were still and quiet.


I'm somewhat more sceptical of this. There's no way of knowing how much the children are taking in if they are silent. The assumption with children is that if they are not asking questions or asking for explanations, they are taking in everything being said or actually listening at all.

I remember years ago a teacher reading a chapter of _The Phantom Tollbooth_ to the class each week. I didn't remember what was happening from one week to the next - except for the main character's name and that he had a dog called the 'Watchdog'. It annoyed me for years so that I read it again 10 years ago to become acquainted with the actual story. Why didn't I voice this at the time and ask questions? Probably from fear of looking like the only fool and because it wasn't 'done' to interrupt? I now know that some of the others there had the same experience.


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## Blancrocher (Jul 6, 2013)

Drives me a little crazy when people make angry hisses in response to clapping between movements at the symphony. Cure is worse than the disease, imo.


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## Ingélou (Feb 10, 2013)

eugeneonagain said:


> I'm somewhat more sceptical of this. There's no way of knowing how much the children are taking in if they are silent...


Yes there is - talking to the children after the story is finished & asking them to produce imaginative stories and pictures based on the book that was read to them soon indicates how much the class took in.*

Good standard teaching practices, in other words, will do the job.

Similarly, rapt attention during the music, a longish awed silence after the last note fades, and thunderous applause thereafter will indicate that the concert audience were engaged and appreciative.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
_* My post speaks of '*young*' children - 7-9 year olds, I meant - and actually you *can* tell, even while you're reading, whether they're interested or not. Their faces change from sad to smiling etc as you read, in keeping with the sad or happy events or characters that the book is dealing with. _


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## eugeneonagain (May 14, 2017)

Ingélou said:


> Yes there is - talking to the children after the story is finished & asking them to produce imaginative stories and pictures based on the book that was read to them soon indicates how much the class took in.*
> 
> Good standard teaching practices, in other words, will do the job.
> 
> ...


How do you know it isn't a reaction to your voice and facial expressions and an agreement with the rest of the class? Blimey, being set a task afterwards it's easy to glean ideas and material for what to put into the writing by talking to fellow pupils, even surreptitiously. If you discover after the task that some pupils were not as informed as others, well it's too late then isn't it?

I'm sure my teachers also went through a proper training and teaching procedure, I went to quite a good school, but they didn't always pick up on these things. Good teaching practises are fine, but I'm drawing the line at telepathy.


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## Ingélou (Feb 10, 2013)

eugeneonagain said:


> How do you know it isn't a reaction to your voice and facial expressions and an agreement with the rest of the class?


They certainly *were* reacting spontaneously to my voice and expressions and those of the rest of the class - we were all sharing the story together, in a rapt atmosphere. The conversation and/or the imaginative work followed immediately, and my pupils were also not afraid to ask questions at the time.

I could tell by the enthusiasm they showed for the story and the follow-up imaginative work that the story had gone down well. 
And I got even better at telling how genuine they were after thirty years experience.

Sorry to hear about your one-off cheesed-off experience with a weekly serial.
It certainly proves nothing about the quality of the school you attended - whoever said it did?
Even the most wonderful teachersand the most fabulous educational establishments have their off-days. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ 

To return to the topic - my opinion is that the if you react while the music is playing, you risk missing the details of the piece and distracting or annoying your neighbours. So I prefer the traditional etiquette of listening in silence and showing one's appreciation *afterwards*.
You are free to disagree. :tiphat:


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## eugeneonagain (May 14, 2017)

Ingélou said:


> Because with these young children, the conversation and/or the imaginative work followed immediately, and my pupils were also not afraid to ask questions at the time. I could tell by the enthusiasm they showed.
> And I got even better at telling how genuine they were after thirty years experience.
> 
> Sorry to hear about your one-off cheesed-off experience with a weekly serial.


It wasn't a one-off and not only me.

So they were asking questions? But right afterwards? Like a Q&A session. That's great, I don't remember having that, but it might have occurred.
I think back to a more fruitful series of reading sessions in first-year (that's 11 year-olds) Latin/classics when we read Caeser's _Conquest of Gaul_ and the teacher encouraged genuine interjections which lead to many explanatory discussions. It was as if we were reading and discussing concurrently and I remember a lot of it even now.
Swinging back to music, I recall this sort of thing happening in music lessons too. Where we would listen to a piece then play it piecemeal as people analysed it.

I am aware that this sort of activity is a lot different than just attending a concert. I do think that if there were more concerts that played a work then offered interactive analysis of them - like a lecture-seminar/tutorial model, that more people would feel a connection with this music. Especially if the music was in places other than being locked away in concert halls accessible via a minimum €25 ticket.


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## Templeton (Dec 20, 2014)

The one change that I would like to see is the audience standing up and applauding the musicians at the end of a very good concert. Not sure whether it's different in other countries but here in the UK, it rarely seems to happen, which is a shame.


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## Ingélou (Feb 10, 2013)

eugeneonagain said:


> It wasn't a one-off and not only me.
> 
> So they were asking questions? But right afterwards? Like a Q&A session. That's great, I don't remember having that, but it might have occurred.
> I think back to a more fruitful series of reading sessions in first-year (that's 11 year-olds) Latin/classics when we read Caeser's _Conquest of Gaul_ and the teacher encouraged genuine interjections which lead to many explanatory discussions. It was as if we were reading and discussing concurrently and I remember a lot of it even now.
> ...


I don't think it's relevant to discuss your education in detail. I used a brief analogy about much younger children - I discuss its relevance to the concert experience - and I have also explained my point of view regarding the question asked by the OP. See posts #17, #22 and #25 above.

Maybe starting a blog or a community thread about education would be the way forward if you are keen to discuss your experiences?


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## Ingélou (Feb 10, 2013)

Templeton said:


> The one change that I would like to see is the audience standing up and applauding the musicians at the end of a very good concert. Not sure whether it's different in other countries but here in the UK, it rarely seems to happen, which is a shame.


I agree. :tiphat:
I quite often do stand and applaud, but sometimes I am scared to do it unless somebody else starts it.
'British reserve' is great during the listening part, but get rid of it during the applause.


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## eugeneonagain (May 14, 2017)

Ingélou said:


> I don't think it's relevant to discuss your education in detail. I used a brief analogy about much younger children - I discuss its relevance to the concert expereince - and I have also explained my point of view regarding the question asked by the OP. See posts #17, #22 and #25 above.
> 
> Maybe starting a blog or a community thread about education would be the way forward if you are keen to discuss your experiences?


That's right, it wasn't me who injected educational experience as an analogy into this discussion. However I don't know why you are getting uppity about it now, perhaps you feel I was dismissing your thirty years of experience? Well I wasn't, but I can question things. I am just as entitled to use periphery matters to relate to the discussion. I am also relating it to music.

There's no need for me to start any blogs or community discussions about this. I have no general keen interest in the matter. You may note I didn't offer any repetition of my education in the thread '_Your music background_'.


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## Templeton (Dec 20, 2014)

Ingélou said:


> I agree. :tiphat:
> I quite often do stand and applaud, but sometimes I am scared to do it unless somebody else starts it.
> 'British reserve' is great during the listening part, but get rid of it during the applause.


You and me both. Some of the time, I do manage to overcome any discomfort but most of the time I don't, more's the pity.


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## Ingélou (Feb 10, 2013)

eugeneonagain said:


> That's right, it wasn't me who injected educational experience as an analogy into this discussion. However I don't know why you are getting uppity about it now, perhaps you feel I was dismissing your thirty years of experience? Well I wasn't, but I can question things. I am just as entitled to use periphery matters to relate to the discussion. I am also relating it to music.
> 
> There's no need for me to start any blogs or community discussions about this. I have no general keen interest in the matter.


Uppity? Come now. 

It's permissible to use metaphors and analogies when making one's main point - which is, for me, that you don't need to observe people dancing in the aisles or swaying to and fro to know if an excellent performance is being appreciated. One thing that human beings are able to do is to sense a *rapt silence*.


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## eugeneonagain (May 14, 2017)

Ingélou said:


> Uppity? Come now.
> 
> It's permissible to use metaphors and analogies when making one's main point - which is, for me, that you don't need to observe people dancing in the aisles or swaying to and fro to know if an excellent performance is being appreciated. One thing that human beings are able to do is to sense a *rapt silence*.


Okay, but the thread is about engagement, not mere appreciation. We could see the latter in a standing ovation at the end and that's perfectly fine, but engagement is different. Now perhaps engagement could be sitting still and paying close attention, but that's only one manner of engaging, even if it is often seen as the most acceptable manner within concert tradition (of the last three generations anyway).
I think we all know that a rapt silence is hardly ever the case at concerts because people are coughing and mumbling all over the place. So what's going on there? Are the audience just rude or is the music not compelling enough or is it something else?


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## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

Templeton said:


> The one change that I would like to see is the audience standing up and applauding the musicians at the end of a very good concert. Not sure whether it's different in other countries but here in the UK, it rarely seems to happen, which is a shame.


Out in Nashville, at the end of every Nashville Symphony concert, there is the obligatory Standing O. I mean, if it's outstanding, I'm all for it. But every doggone time? It's so perfunctory, it is meaningless, and it irritates me.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Manxfeeder said:


> Out in Nashville, at the end of every Nashville Symphony concert, there is the obligatory Standing O. I mean, if it's outstanding, I'm all for it. But every doggone time? It's so perfunctory, it is meaningless, and it irritates me.


Provincial classical concerts and I don't mix. I used to subscribe to the local orchestra, but at the beginning of every concert, there was the obligatory lecture about the music we were about to hear. So condescending. I stopped going. A far cry from the New York Philharmonic concerts I was used to attending.

Also parking was a bitch!! :lol::lol:

The New York Philharmonic? Convenient public transportation to Lincoln Center.


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## bharbeke (Mar 4, 2013)

Applause in itself is tradition and not an indication that the music was good. Sometimes, people clap because they liked it, and sometimes, they clap because it is over. Performers can tell the difference between enthusiasm and expected demonstration, and the same principle applies to the standing ovation. If I don't think a performance earned the standing ovation, I will generally give regular applause from my seat, then stand with my coat/gear until the people in my aisle are ready to leave. This gives a different audio and visual impression than full participation in a standing ovation.


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## Botschaft (Aug 4, 2017)

eugeneonagain said:


> Okay, but the thread is about engagement, not mere appreciation. We could see the latter in a standing ovation at the end and that's perfectly fine, but engagement is different. Now perhaps engagement could be sitting still and paying close attention, but that's only one manner of engaging, even if it is often seen as the most acceptable manner within concert tradition (of the last three generations anyway).
> I think we all know that a rapt silence is hardly ever the case at concerts because people are coughing and mumbling all over the place. So what's going on there? Are the audience just rude or is the music not compelling enough or is it something else?


It turns out that classical music audiences cough more than people generally do (especially during less 'compelling' passages), even if you take their higher average age into account, so considering that coughing is not a mere reflex but a completely voluntary behavior I'd definitely say they're being rude.


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## eugeneonagain (May 14, 2017)

Improbus said:


> It turns out that classical music audiences cough more than people generally do (especially during less 'compelling' passages), even if you take their higher average age into account, so considering that coughing is not a mere reflex but a completely voluntary behavior I'd definitely say they're being rude.


Right, so are they coughing because the music is less compelling in parts (let's call this 'negative engagement' with the music) or are they just rude? I'm feeling something of a contradiction in this.


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## Botschaft (Aug 4, 2017)

eugeneonagain said:


> Right, so are they coughing because the music is less compelling in parts (let's call this 'negative engagement' with the music) or are they just rude? I'm feeling something of a contradiction in this.


I think it's a bit rude to make noises just because you don't find the music compelling enough yourself, even if it's not a deliberate protest of any kind or intended to disturb.


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## eugeneonagain (May 14, 2017)

Improbus said:


> I think it's a bit rude to make noises just because you don't find the music compelling enough yourself, even if it's not a deliberate protest of any kind or intended to disturb.


Well yes, but that's not really an answer to the question is it? In any case it could be involuntary nervous coughing much like any tense situation. I was more probing into whether this represented a engagement reaction to the suppression of interaction during sitting still and listening for a relatively long period of time.


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## Botschaft (Aug 4, 2017)

eugeneonagain said:


> Well yes, but that's not really an answer to the question is it? In any case it could be involuntary nervous coughing much like any tense situation. I was more probing into whether this represented a engagement reaction to the suppression of interaction during sitting still and listening for a relatively long period of time.


I guess it must either be indifference or stupidity; who would think that coughing adds anything to the listening experience rather than detracts from it? Neither do I think it serves to communicate any emotional state, whatever that would be.


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## eugeneonagain (May 14, 2017)

Improbus said:


> I guess it must either be indifference or stupidity; who would think that coughing adds anything to the listening experience rather than detracts from it? Neither do I think it serves to communicate any emotional state, whatever that would be.


Who suggested that it 'adds' anything? Obviously it must be communicating something if it is indifference or stupidity. Only if it was innocent coughing or genuine illness would it be meaningless in terms of communication. You're not really grasping what I'm talking about.


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## Botschaft (Aug 4, 2017)

eugeneonagain said:


> Who suggested that it 'adds' anything? Obviously it must be communicating something if it is indifference or stupidity. Only if it was innocent coughing or genuine illness would it be meaningless in terms of communication. You're not really grasping what I'm talking about.


Fair enough: they unintentionally communicate their lack of manners. As for your original question: I don't see why being rude and uninterested would be mutually exclusive. Rather I think they're being rude _because_ they're uninterested, not only in the music but also in the feelings of others.


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## eugeneonagain (May 14, 2017)

It doesn't say much for the classical music audiences then does it? Earlier on this evening I listened to the Proms where Shostakovich's 5th was performed and the avalanche of coughing between movements was astonishing.

I've been to jazz band performances where there is no coughing at all in-between the musical numbers. It's very interesting.

Or does the situation and 'etiquette' for listening play a role?


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Sitting still and silent isn't natural for a lot of people, maybe most people, unless they're fully focused and absorbed by something. Listening to music with full focus and absorption is too much to expect of a diverse audience listening to diverse music, and the effort to be immobile might produce tension which manifests in the sensation of needing to cough. I think most of the coughing in concert audiences is of this nature, and probably the best evidence of this is that it tends to settle down as the concert proceeds and people get absorbed by the music. 

More conscious and considerate people will try to suppress their urge to cough when it's likely to be heard. If I really need to cough I'll wait till the music is loud, preferably timing it with a loud accent or downbeat, and I'll bet that many who cough between movements have been considerately holding it in for quite a while.


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## Botschaft (Aug 4, 2017)

eugeneonagain said:


> It doesn't say much for the classical music audiences then does it? Earlier on this evening I listened to the Proms where Shostakovich's 5th was performed and the avalanche of coughing between movements was astonishing.
> 
> I've been to jazz band performances where there is no coughing at all in-between the musical numbers. It's very interesting.
> 
> Or does the situation and 'etiquette' for listening play a role?


Age, numbers (quite obviously), access to food and drink, dryness of the air (not so sure about that), attentiveness and nervousness all might factor in; still people are more prone to cough when they attend classical concerts than otherwise, despite the fact that they really ought not to cough at all, indicating a lack of consideration.


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## Goddess Yuja Wang (Aug 8, 2017)

I've had a few bad experiences in classical music concerts, thanks to inconsiderate and rude people who should rather stay home drinking beer or attend a football match in a stadium instead... 

In one of them, the conductor (international guest conductor - how embarrassing) had to STOP the concert, turn around towards the audience, and cross his arms, waiting for one of those "mothers" to leave the auditorium with her 6-year-old crying monster who decided to throw a tantrum 5 minutes into the symphony.
Everybody started screaming at her to leave. And she refused for a minute or so. As she finally couldn't take the heat and left, she screamed at us all to f**** off, and everyone turned wild clapping and booing. What a classy woman.

Another time, a loud annoying telephone ring rang in the middle of a quiet piece, and the guy, in his nervousness, couldn't shut it down! I mean, who the hell doesn't turn off their phones before a concert?

Also, it really angers me when some random idiot starts humming a theme in the middle of a concert, as if he were showing us all that he knows the music (look, ma', I know the piece!). 
Or what about candy plastic wraps during a slow movement? It can be maddening!

If someone starts making noise, or "engaging" improperly, depending on my mood, I would leave the hall or shooooooosh the offender into silence.
The concert hall is NOT the place to show your thoughts or emotions because NOBODY cares about what you're feeling, and we didn't pay to hear from you. You're not that interesting! 
People don't pay lots of money or wait for months for a concert only for it to be spoiled by some idiot who is unable to control his sorry self. I think this is an issue with younger spoiled people who think they are entitled to anything they want at the expense of everbody else> Inconsiderate people who obviously are far out from their normal environment... And it shows!

Also, why do people always have to cough like mad in the most magical parts of the music? Why not going outside to cough their lungs out? Why don't they cover their mouths? Or why they don't wait for in-between movements, or at least during a loud part? Ok. My mild misophonia doesn't help either, but still...

I rarely go out to the movies these days, for similar reasons... I'm tired of the sickening smell of onion cheese nachos permeating the whole theatre. I really don't enjoy it when some dude eats and crunches his smelly food like a pig seating 30 centimeters away from me. 
Too many times too many people behave exactly like what they are: unrefined animals!

The day classical music venues allow these outbursts of unrestrained Homo sapiens stupidity , that's the day I will stop attending live concerts forever and listen to my music in the peace and quiet of my living room instead. Concert halls are NOT stadiums! They are for people who trully enjoy this music and who can behave like educated and well-mannered beings once in a while for a couple of hours.

¡¡¡Callense el hocico!!! Halt die Schnauze!!!

Oh, but when the music ends, feel free to clap and scream, if you want. I know I do if I liked what I heard.


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## Botschaft (Aug 4, 2017)

Goddess Yuja Wang said:


> Or what about candy plastic wraps during a slow movement? It can be maddening!


Didn't you know that slow movements are just insignificant interludes for eating and chatting, hardly to be paid any attention to?


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## eugeneonagain (May 14, 2017)

Goddess Yuja Wang said:


> In one of them, the conductor (international guest conductor - how embarrassing) had to STOP the concert, turn around towards the audience, and cross his arms, waiting for one of those "mothers" to leave the auditorium with her 6-year-old crying monster who decided to throw a tantrum 5 minutes into the symphony.
> Everybody started screaming at her to leave. And she refused for a minute or so. As she finally couldn't take the heat and left, she screamed at us all to f**** off, and everyone turned wild clapping and booing. What a classy woman.


It's not great, but I doubt the woman went there with the plan for her child to cry. I'd say it was more embarrassing for the woman than for the conductor, for every miserable, self-interested face to be turned towards her, 'screaming' like she's some sort of social pariah for having the temerity to bring a child. I think I would have told everyone to f*** off too.

Amazing how the audience can 'turn wild clapping and booing' for that. It probably released a lot of tension. What was the music? Maybe the child duly responded in an unrestrained and honest way that an adult wouldn't.


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## Botschaft (Aug 4, 2017)

eugeneonagain said:


> It's not great, but I doubt the woman went there with the plan for her child to cry. I'd say it was more embarrassing for the woman than for the conductor, for every miserable, self-interested face to be turned towards her, 'screaming' like she's some sort of social pariah for having the temerity to bring a child. I think I would have told everyone to f*** off too.
> 
> Amazing how the audience can 'turn wild clapping and booing' for that. It probably released a lot of tension. What was the music? Maybe the child duly responded in an unrestrained and honest way that an adult wouldn't.


Something tells me he wasn't crying because he was moved by the music, though he might have been really displeased with the performance, who knows.


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## Goddess Yuja Wang (Aug 8, 2017)

eugeneonagain said:


> It's not great, but I doubt the woman went there with the plan for her child to cry. I'd say it was more embarrassing for the woman than for the conductor, for every miserable, self-interested face to be turned towards her, 'screaming' like she's some sort of social pariah for having the temerity to bring a child. I think I would have told everyone to f*** off too.
> 
> Amazing how the audience can 'turn wild clapping and booing' for that.


I agree. She was not planning on doing it, of course, but what angered the audience was her defiant attitude... She never seemed even a little embarrassed; she didn't show any sign of concern of her public disruption, and she certainly was in no hurry to leave or do something about the conductor and the whole orchestra waiting for her.
It was more like she was annoyed that _we_ were interrupting _her_ moment of relaxation and that she had to do something about her kid. Unbelievable!



eugeneonagain said:


> What was the music? Maybe the child duly responded in an unrestrained and honest way that an adult wouldn't.





Improbus said:


> Something tells me he wasn't crying because he was moved by the music, though he might have been really displeased with the performance, who knows.


It was a while ago. I think it was a Tchaikovsky program. One of his symphonies, or perhaps the introduction to Eugene Onegin. And the orchestra was pretty good, so I don't think the kid protested because of the music. 
Maybe he wanted to watch TV instead...


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## eugeneonagain (May 14, 2017)

Goddess Yuja Wang said:


> It was a while ago. I think it was a Tchaikovsky program. One of his symphonies, or perhaps the introduction to Eugene Onegin. And the orchestra was pretty good, so I don't think the kid protested because of the music.
> Maybe he wanted to watch TV instead...


He probably would have been better off. Perhaps even learnt more too.


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## Annied (Apr 27, 2017)

Music to me is all about movement, so it does go against the grain to sit still when I'm at a live performance. That said, I do manage it because I have no wish to spoil the enjoyment of others. Having sat motionless through the first half of a concert several years ago (unless you count the foot tapping inside my shoe), I was completely nonplussed when, come the interval, the stranger next to me asked me to keep still. Short of ceasing to breathe, I wasn't sure what else I could have done. I asked the friend I was with, a real stickler and not one to mince her words, if I'd been moving around and she said I hadn't. We duly swapped places for the second half. So while on the other hand, I wasn't too happy the evening I was sitting behind a head banger, I do think things can be taken too far by some people.


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## Isiah Thanu (Nov 1, 2016)

eugeneonagain said:


> Okay, but the thread is about engagement, not mere appreciation. We could see the latter in a standing ovation at the end and that's perfectly fine, but engagement is different. Now perhaps engagement could be sitting still and paying close attention, but that's only one manner of engaging, even if it is often seen as the most acceptable manner within concert tradition (of the last three generations anyway).
> I think we all know that a rapt silence is hardly ever the case at concerts because people are coughing and mumbling all over the place. So what's going on there? Are the audience just rude or is the music not compelling enough or is it something else?


It's the last. They are all " look at me " types. They cough and splutter just to be noticed, especially if the concert is being-recorded
Think I exaggerate?. How many of them when listening at home on their hi fi or radio will be coughing? None, I'll bet.
If I could I'd ban them. Sit next to me and do it and you'll be told to shut up.


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## Lisztian (Oct 10, 2011)

Every year the Melbourne Symphony Orchestra puts on three free concerts at an outdoor venue, the Sydney Myer Music Bowl. These concerts are generally packed, and usually with many people who usually wouldn't go to a classical music concert: it's free and something to do, why not? Well and good.

I went to one of these and I simply couldn't handle it. It's a fairly large venue and I don't recall it being amplified, which would be fine, but there were no rules regarding talking/making noise. Everyone around me was chatting away and hardly attempting to listen to the music, which was hard to hear in detail over the racket. A lady who seemed to me to be in her late 50s - early 60s was one of the chief offenders in my general vicinity. After about twenty minutes of non-stop yapping I saw her turn and seemingly notice there was music on. 5 seconds after this realisation she turned back to her friend and declared: "I don't like this kind of music," and then continued to talk for the remainder of the first half. I believe the work was Daphnis et Chloe...

I didn't stay for the second half.


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