# Kremer on the Beethoven Violin Concerto



## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

read about Gidon Kremer's meditations on the Beethoven Violin Concerto and the best performances.

http://slippedisc.com/2015/11/gidon-kremer-picks-the-best-ever-beethoven-concerto/

There is a link to the whole article.

Any comments?


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## gHeadphone (Mar 30, 2015)

Wow, 44 pages, thanks for sharing David, ill read it over the weekend!


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## Steatopygous (Jul 5, 2015)

I've downloaded the long article and will read it. Expect a comment mid-2017.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

gHeadphone said:


> Wow, 44 pages, thanks for sharing David, ill read it over the weekend!


I second this. 
His Sibelius is out of this word though


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## Headphone Hermit (Jan 8, 2014)

how interesting that none of the long list are from the last 56 years and thus my personal favourite (the Grumiaux with the Concertgebouw and Sir Colin Davis from 1974) isn't mentioned

I look forward to reading the article this weekend. Thank you for posting this


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## Steatopygous (Jul 5, 2015)

Headphone Hermit said:


> how interesting that none of the long list are from the last 56 years and thus my personal favourite (the Grumiaux with the Concertgebouw and Sir Colin Davis from 1974) isn't mentioned
> 
> I look forward to reading the article this weekend. Thank you for posting this


Grumiaux is definitely my favourite too. I love his pure, seamless, radiant tone and how he shapes the phrase. Truly, he breathes the music. I have him doing the Beethoven with Haitink and van Beinum as well. 
My wife has just called me to set the table, and the whole forum can breathe a sigh of relief - I have to close now. I was just getting warmed up!


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## shadowdancer (Mar 31, 2014)

Great article. 
I find the conclusion most unexpected.


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## Steatopygous (Jul 5, 2015)

Yes, measured, informative, intelligent. How fascinating to get a great artist's insights. Not surprisingly I don't pick up many of the flaws he refers to - his is very much an insider's view. And I agree - the conclusion comes unannounced from nowhere. 
Thanks again, David, for posting it.


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## gardibolt (May 22, 2015)

Yes, fascinating read. Thanks, David.


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## DaveM (Jun 29, 2015)

I just read all 44 pages and, to say the least, it is well worth reading by anyone who has Beethoven's Violin Concerto in that rarefied list of a quintessential work of a genius. I enjoyed much of the analysis and insight Kremer has into this much-loved work; a work that can sometimes drive a listener a little crazy on hearing virtually dozens of the different interpretations of it!

Overall though, I got a bit lost as to what Kremer's bottom-line position was. During the first half of the 'essay', he often emphasized that it was inappropriate for an artist to move beyond the exact indications in the original score (ie. the urtext) or to add much in the way of embellishments such as slides, glissandi and excess vibrato. On the other hand, as he moved on, it seemed as if he was backtracking on that premise when it came to an artist adding his/her own 'personality' to the work.

And then there was this on p32 of the essay:
_"If we approach the work of a genius, we find there, as in a mathematic formula, only the notes and comments that he thought necessary. Anything added to it: a wrong understanding of a prescribed tempo, a slide, an attractive bowing, cascades of double stops in the cadenzas, additional dynamics, wide vibratos borrowed from alien stylistics to embellish the humble melody line and many more features actually makes it difficult for us to listen to the author's "message" and to allow them to be heard by others. As a kind of exception to the "rule", a well chosen and well played cadenza can make an enlightening comment on the work."_

This is obviously a defense of his use of the Schnittke cadenza on Kremer's 1974 recording. I find that the message in that paragraph to be at cross-purposes. If an artist's use of certain embellishments in their performance is counter to the intention of the composer, then how can the addition of a 20th century cadenza -and one that IMO becomes an immediate distraction because it 'screams' 20th century- not be likewise?

Also, his conclusion as to what he views to be the (or his selected) 'best' performance also seems to be such a knee-jerk personal reaction that it seems to throw out all the thoughtful analysis that has preceded it. Haven't we all had the experience of being very moved by a given performance, which over time moved from 'my favorite performance at the moment' to 'one of my favorite performances'. Could he have come to such an exact and certain conclusion so easily after all the time he spent explaining how complex such a process would be?

Digressing:
It was interesting to me that he had something special to say of the Szigeti performance. It was a 78rpm recording of the Szigeti Brahms Violin Concerto that turned me on to classical music at about age 7. It was never transferred to 33rpm vinyl or CD and I've never been able to find a version quite like it.

I never liked the Heifetz Beethoven version: technically masterful, if not perfect, but, to me, lifeless. I never like a Francescatti performance of any violin concerto. I went to a live performance of the Beethoven played by Yehudi Menuhin (even got his signature on his LP album), but I found his playing and interpretation perfunctory.

Honestly, I'm still searching for the/my optimal Beethoven Violin Concerto performance. It probably is the work that has affected me most on a very personal level. I had the work pretty much memorized in my head and when working as a 15 year-old bag-boy at a supermarket, I would battle the tedium by humming the orchestral part and whistling (well, as much as possible) the violin part. Btw: During those years, I played the violin and in retrospect, it was a disaster -no talent whatsoever (should have been playing the piano which I had more aptitude for in the years that followed).


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Must say Kremer's use of the dreadful Schnittke cadenza spoils what is a masterful performance of the concerto. One of the best in fact. I have quite a number of different versions (including Kermer's) played quite differently but each is good on its own terms. What one mustn't allow the music to do is to drag as some soloists - out of misplaced reverence - do. I'm not surprised DaveM cannot find an optimal performance as it's a musical equivalent of Hamlet - can be done many different ways yet is elusive. A work of ultimate genius!


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## Adam Weber (Apr 9, 2015)

I like the Schnittke cadenza...


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## Animal the Drummer (Nov 14, 2015)

Headphone Hermit said:


> how interesting that none of the long list are from the last 56 years and thus my personal favourite (the Grumiaux with the Concertgebouw and Sir Colin Davis from 1974) isn't mentioned
> 
> I look forward to reading the article this weekend. Thank you for posting this


Grumiaux's my favourite interpreter of this lovely piece too but IMHO, although that's a fine recording, it isn't his best one. For me that's his earlier recording with Alceo Galliera (a very fine accompanist indeed) and the New Philharmonia, which has just an extra touch of magical calm about it (in the slow movement especially) although the Concertgebouw's playing is a tad sharper than the New Phil's.


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## gardibolt (May 22, 2015)

Just got a copy of the one he selected as the best (I've never heard it before). We'll see if I agree.


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## Steatopygous (Jul 5, 2015)

I too think the Galliera might be my favourite Grumiaux account. I forgot to mention that one. 
So for DaveM, in regard to your very thoughtful post, you now know where to look for an ideal Beethoven. 
Oistrakh is similar. 
Here are the versions I have
Arthur Grumiaux vln - Galliera
Arthur Grumiaux vln - Haitink
Arthur Grumiaux vln - Davis
Arthur Grumiaux vln - von Beinum 
Bronislaw Huberman vln - Szell - another celebrated early recording
Christian Ferras vln - Karajan
David Oistrakh vln - Gauk
David Oistrakh vln - Cluytens
Gidon Kremer vln - Harnoncourt
Henryk Szeryng vln - Haitink
Herman Krebbers vln - Haitink - famous in its day
Itzhak Perlman vln - Giulini - rosette in Penguin Gujide
Janine Jansen vln - Jarvi
Jascha Heifetz vln - Munch (not at his most sensitive)
Kyung Wha Chung vln - Kondrashin
Mischa Elman vln - Solti
Patricia Kopatchinskaja vln - Herreweghe (very well reviewed modern account)
Thomas Zehetmair vln - Bruggen
Vadim Repin vln - Muti (another of my very favourites)
Wolfgang Schneiderhan vln - Jochum (another one I really like)
Zino Francescatti vln - Walter ((I can't agree with DAveM, really like this)

Most of these have something wonderful to offer. But Grumiaux is my "go to" violinist.


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## gardibolt (May 22, 2015)

gardibolt said:


> Just got a copy of the one he selected as the best (I've never heard it before). We'll see if I agree.


Having listened to it several times now, I see what Kremer finds appealing in it. I'm not convinced it's the best, but it's very good. I see Pristine has remastered the only studio recording by this artist so I think I'll check that out as well.


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## Steatopygous (Jul 5, 2015)

gardibolt said:


> Having listened to it several times now, I see what Kremer finds appealing in it. I'm not convinced it's the best, but it's very good. I see Pristine has remastered the only studio recording by this artist so I think I'll check that out as well.


People in Wagner-land talk about Pristine a lot. I gather it is very good but very expensive. It would be great if you could give us your thoughts when you've had a listen or two!


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Steatopygous said:


> People in Wagner-land talk about Pristine a lot. I gather it is very good but very expensive. It would be great if you could give us your thoughts when you've had a listen or two!


I also read the pristine reviews with interest, however as you say (very) expensive.
Another problem is sending to Europe cost so much, ridiculous.


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## ArtMusic (Jan 5, 2013)

Seems like a worthwhile listening experience to support.


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## gardibolt (May 22, 2015)

Pugg said:


> I also read the pristine reviews with interest, however as you say (very) expensive.
> Another problem is sending to Europe cost so much, ridiculous.


Pristine is based in France.


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