# Music which sends you into a deep and timeless contemplative state.



## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Quite a lot of Western classical music gives you a heightened perception of duration. You're aware that here you're listening to a bit which is similar or different to the bit a while before, and there the texture has changed briefly from what it was, and oh look! there's a new tune etc etc etc. It encourages _active_ listening.

Do you have music which does the opposite? Music which makes you forget the passage of time, music which sends you into a meditation almost. It encourages _immersive_ listening.


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## BrahmsWasAGreatMelodist (Jan 13, 2019)

For me at least, most if not all of the music which falls into the second category is structurally intact. Yet I still tend to listen to these works immersively rather than actively, and I lose my sense of time when listening to them. I think often the tight structure of the work aids this sense of "immersion" rather than prohibits it. The music takes on an abstract form - often an organic form - independent of the sounds which realize it. A few examples:

Brahms - Piano Pieces opp. 116-119
Beethoven - SQ op. 131 (esp Mvt 1)
Schubert - Sonata D. 960 (Mvt. 1)
Boulez - _Sur Incises_
Bach - _Goldberg Variations_
Sibelius - Symphony 7

So I don't think thematic recurrence and form discourage immersive listening, as seems to be implied in the OP. In fact I think it often helps, in the same sense that awareness of the past and anticipation of the future can be used to inform (rather than impede) mindfulness of the present.


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## RICK RIEKERT (Oct 9, 2017)

For that I go East, young man. Shamsuddin Faridi Desai, the great Sufi Beenkar, for whom "Allah is hidden in the music". Baba Shamsuddin's aim was to bring himself and the listener into a state of annihilation (Arabic: fana) and trance (Arabic: wajd).


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## Strange Magic (Sep 14, 2015)

Bach: Keyboard Concerto D-minor, first movement
Hovhaness: Piano Concerto #1 _Lousadzak_, middle section
Many ostinato passages in Sibelius' music--last movement, 2nd symphony
Mozart: Symphony #41 _Jupiter_, last movement
Bach: Brandenburg #4, _Presto_
Bach: Many fugues--_Chromatic Fantasia and Fugue_,etc.


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## jegreenwood (Dec 25, 2015)

Several works by Morton Feldman, especially the Piano and String Quartet.


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

Arvo Pärt : Spiegel im Spiegel


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

Mandryka said:


> Quite a lot of Western classical music gives you a heightened perception of duration. You're aware that here you're listening to a bit which is similar or different to the bit a while before, and there the texture has changed briefly from what it was, and oh look! there's a new tune etc etc etc. It encourages _active_ listening.
> 
> Do you have music which does the opposite? Music which makes you forget the passage of time, music which sends you into a meditation almost. It encourages _immersive_ listening.


Some of Feldman and Cage. Miles Davis _On the Corner_. As mentioned before, much Indian Classical Music. Chant.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

RICK RIEKERT said:


> For that I go East, young man. Shamsuddin Faridi Desai, the great Sufi Beenkar, for whom "Allah is hidden in the music". Baba Shamsuddin's aim was to bring himself and the listener into a state of annihilation (Arabic: fana) and trance (Arabic: wajd).


What is this: an improvisation or a composition or something between?


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

BrahmsWasAGreatMelodist said:


> For me at least, *most if not all of the music which falls into the second category is structurally intact.**...I still tend to listen to these works immersively *rather than actively, and I lose my sense of time when listening to them.


The response cancels-out the premise of the OP by saying "quite a lot of Western classical music" can be listened to without regard to any linear sense of time or progression (The OP specified "quite a lot of Western classical music" as encouraging active listening).

If the listener listens "immersively" to music regardless of whatever intent and linear structural process was used to create the music, then it renders the OP's distinctions meaningless; and these distinctions are clearly described as "active vs. immersive" listening. Why erase the distinction?



> I don't think thematic recurrence and form discourage immersive listening, as seems to be implied in the OP. In fact I think it often helps, in the same sense that awareness of the past and anticipation of the future can be used to inform (rather than impede) mindfulness of the present.


Then why bother with any kind of distinction between "active" and "immersive" listening as the OP suggests exists? What is the assumption?

___________________________________________________________________

I see a distinction between active and immersive listening.

There is music such as Wagner (perhaps parts of Mahler and Bruckner), which by the composers' intent might be said to "suspend time;" with Bruckner, especially as conducted by Celibidache, I get a sense of suspended time, but I'm always aware that the music is changing through time.
I feel that this is still within the context of linear tonal structure, and is not what the OP is referring to as "immersive music," since the music itself _structurally_ consists of harmonic progressions which proceed and develop _linearly through "time," _at least on paper.

The OP does not specify any particular music, and could be referring to anything. When I think of "immersive" music which seems to "stop time," I think of music such as African music, Terry Riley, John Cage, LaMonte Young, early Philip Glass minimalist works, Feldman (as mentioned), John Cage, Messiaen, even Boulez and some serial music. It would be an error to associate "immersive" exclusively to Eastern music.

For those who see this distinction as being meaningful, I refer you to this blog: 
https://www.talkclassical.com/blogs/millionrainbows/1521-new-conceptions-musical-time.html

The original source is of my theory texts which I don't want to haver to go dig up, unless coerced or threatened, mocked, ridiculed, etc.


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## Allegro Con Brio (Jan 3, 2020)

Bach - Goldberg Variations
Messiaen - Practically anything!
Beethoven - Late string quartets and piano sonatas (particularly the slow movements)
Bruckner - Symphonies 7-9 Adagios
Schubert - Adagios of Piano Sonata No. 21 and String Quintet
Enescu - Symphony No. 3 finale
Strauss - Four Last Songs
Mahler - Symphony No. 4 Adagio, Symphony No. 9 finale
Schumann - Fantasie in C finale

In addition, I would say that the criteria of the OP is required for me to love any work of early music as well. Hildegard von Bingen, Perotin, Josquin, Ockeghem, Palestrina, and a good many other Renaissance pieces have that effect on me.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

Mandryka said:


> What is this: an improvisation or a composition or something between?


This is a performance, and as such, we are interested in what the performer does with the elements of the music, and most Eastern and Indian music is designed for this: it is an aural/oral form, not written out as score. In this present era, however, it can exist as a sound recording.

A "composition" refers to a fixed form, such as a score or a song structure.

Sound recording changed the function that written composition used to dominate. Now, a sound recording of a performance has as much power as a written score once dominated. A sound recording "fixes" a performance in time, and makes it consistent and invariable, like a score can. This is the main difference between an oral and literate culture, and why printing changed the world.

In aural/oral cultures, performers used to forget things or change things. Thus, a sound recording can "fix" music and make it unchanging. Sound recording is "ear-writing"

Sound recording has reduced the written score to function as what it really is: a set of instructions to coordinate a number of performers. as well as being a fixed idea.
But as far as setting down musical ideas which are invariable and consistent, the written score no longer has the exclusive power it once did; sound recording does that, too. It is "ear-writing."

Thus, sound recordings have become "compositions" in the sense that we value a Frank Sinatra recording for the performance, not simply for the "song" (composition) itself. His recorded performance is now "fixed" as an aural 'composition.'

We value a John Coltrane recording of "My Favorite Things" mainly for the improvisational performance he gives us, not because of the Rogers/Hammerstein song he uses as a vehicle.


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## Zhdanov (Feb 16, 2016)

Mandryka said:


> Music which makes you forget the passage of time, music which sends you into a meditation almost.


that is not music, rather a relaxation practice.


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## RICK RIEKERT (Oct 9, 2017)

Mandryka said:


> What is this: an improvisation or a composition or something between?


The performance is based on a particular raga. Besides referring to a piece for performance, partly spontaneous, partly pre-defined, raga refers both to tonal aspects of the melodic line and to the cultural context in which people experience ragas.

As the late Bob Trotter wrote, "Our term "improvisation," used to characterize the mysterious blend of spontaneity and tradition in his performances, is notoriously inadequate. It has become debased to refer to spontaneous gestures-sonic, visual, kinetic in medium, beautiful or offensive in effect-as though they exist only in the moment. When spontaneity and tradition meet, when "improvised" gestures occupy a moment within a heritage of expectations, however young or ancient, then improvisation can take on its full mystery in time."


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## jegreenwood (Dec 25, 2015)

SanAntone said:


> Some of Feldman and Cage. Miles Davis _On the Corner_. As mentioned before, much Indian Classical Music. Chant.


_On the Corner_ was a recent purchase for me. I need to listen from that perspective. From Miles, I probably would have chosen _In a Silent Way._


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

jegreenwood said:


> _On the Corner_ was a recent purchase for me. I need to listen from that perspective. From Miles, I probably would have chosen _In a Silent Way._


I agree, there are several Miles' records that answer this question, _In a Silent Way_, at least "Shhh/Peaceful" certainly would. I also thought of _Get Up With It_ or even _Kind of Blue_.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

RICK RIEKERT said:


> The performance is based on a particular raga. Besides referring to a piece for performance, partly spontaneous, partly pre-defined, raga refers both to tonal aspects of the melodic line and to the cultural context in which people experience ragas.
> 
> As the late Bob Trotter wrote, "Our term "improvisation," used to characterize the mysterious blend of spontaneity and tradition in his performances, is notoriously inadequate. It has become debased to refer to spontaneous gestures-sonic, visual, kinetic in medium, beautiful or offensive in effect-as though they exist only in the moment. When spontaneity and tradition meet, when "improvised" gestures occupy a moment within a heritage of expectations, however young or ancient, then improvisation can take on its full mystery in time."


This is what Richard Barrett means by Structured Improvisation I think.


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## Strange Magic (Sep 14, 2015)

This genre from Mauritania can be quite immersing:


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## John Lenin (Feb 4, 2021)

Arvo Part puts me to sleep.... Everytime.... Does that count...


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

Mandryka said:


> This is what Richard Barrett means by Structured Improvisation I think.


Wiki has a pretty good article on the *Indian classical Raga*. These performances are much more structured and complicated than what we in the West think of as improvised music. I've studied this music some, but feel more comfortable pointing you to the Wiki article since I don't trust my memory of all of the aspects and historical components of the music.


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## consuono (Mar 27, 2020)

Scott Joplin's "Solace"


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## EmperorOfIceCream (Jan 3, 2020)

Certainly Messiaen's Vingt regards


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

RICK RIEKERT said:


> The performance is based on a particular raga. Besides referring to a piece for performance, partly spontaneous, partly pre-defined, raga refers both to tonal aspects of the melodic line and to the cultural context in which people experience ragas.
> 
> As the late Bob Trotter wrote, "Our term 'improvisation,' used to characterize the mysterious blend of spontaneity and tradition in his performances, "is notoriously inadequate."
> 
> "It has become debased to refer to spontaneous gestures-sonic, visual, kinetic in medium, beautiful or offensive in effect-as though they exist only in the moment. When spontaneity and tradition meet, when 'improvised' gestures occupy a moment within a heritage of expectations, however young or ancient, then improvisation can take on its full mystery in time."


Bob Trotter insists that his improvisation be served with tradition. I wonder if this excludes John Coltrane? If so, I disagree. Coltrane's extensive knowledge made him a formidable improvisor in our "notoriously inadequate" sense of the term.



SanAntone said:


> Wiki has a pretty good article on the Indian classical Raga. *These performances are much more structured and complicated than what we in the West think of as improvised music.* I've studied this music some, but feel more comfortable pointing you to the Wiki article since I don't trust my memory of all of the aspects and historical components of the music.


I consider what Ravi Shankar and Ali Akbar Khan have done to be "improvisation" in the Western sense: spontaneous, creative, in the moment, not unlike jazz improvisation;

Similarly, Eric Clapton's fifteen-minute guitar solo on "Spoonful" (Cream Live at Winterland). 
I see similarities, not differences.

What is behind the consideration of Raga as being 'more structured' than Western improvisation? 
Does that make it more "classical?"


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

John Lenin said:


> Arvo Part puts me to sleep.... Everytime.... Does that count...


No. Like meditation, immersive listening requires awareness, not a sleep state.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

EmperorOfIceCream said:


> Certainly Messiaen's Vingt regards


Yes, I hear Messiaen's music as a series of "sonic events," not as linear progressions.


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## ArtMusic (Jan 5, 2013)

Morton would be ideal for this purpose; music that is endlessly repetitive, slow and "already there".


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

ArtMusic said:


> Morton would be ideal for this purpose; music that is endlessly repetitive, slow and "already there".


I'll look into this music. 
Robert Morton (c. 1430 - after 13 March 1479) was an English composer of the early Renaissance, mostly active at the Burgundian court. He was highly regarded at the time. Only secular vocal music, all Rondeaux for three voices, survive.


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## Krummhorn (Feb 18, 2007)

The organ works of Messiaen. My preference is to listen in a darkened room while laying on the floor. 

Kh


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## cheregi (Jul 16, 2020)

millionrainbows said:


> What is behind the consideration of Raga as being 'more structured' than Western improvisation?
> Does that make it more "classical?"


I want to say something along the lines of, "each raga has different rules around what types of melodic motion can occur / how to approach each note, and what kinds of microtonal inflections can occur where, not to mention the different 12- or 14-beat rhythmic patterns that form part of the soloist's consideration..." but it occurs to me that, for example, Eric Clapton is also following certain 'cliches' or unspoken rules/expectations of melodic or rhythmic motion... I guess the larger difference is that in the raga system those cliches are codified and discussed and understood consciously, and therefore more subject to deliberate withholding or fulfillment. Whether or not this makes the raga system 'more classical' seems fairly arbitrary to me.

As for raga-based music in the context of Mandryka's OP, I am of two minds: the tanpura drone is one of the most immersive sounds I have ever heard, especially if you are attuned to the higher overtones... but so much tanpura-based music has that overwhelming sense of linearity where the soloist gets faster and more emphatic over time culminating in a big climax... which doesn't really attract my interest, musically.

As for musics that do fit the mold: here's two examples that at first seem too 'active-listening', but as they go on you settle into them:






This Ethiopian harp music is actually traditionally used for meditation. The melody/rhythm structure repeats exactly, as far as I can tell. Something about the rhythmic angularity and complexity of the instrument's timbre really draws me in...






Cambodian court music, gamelan's ugly-duckling cousin. The main melody is subject to constant variation, but it doesn't actually seem to go anywhere or do anything at all - just meander around in circles.

And I can't resist posting some minimal dub techno, an old favorite, undeniably immersive though subject to constant micro-variation:








millionrainbows said:


> I'll look into this music.
> Robert Morton (c. 1430 - after 13 March 1479) was an English composer of the early Renaissance, mostly active at the Burgundian court. He was highly regarded at the time. Only secular vocal music, all Rondeaux for three voices, survive.


Thanks for this chuckle...


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

cheregi said:


> I want to say something along the lines of, "each raga has different rules around what types of melodic motion can occur / how to approach each note, and what kinds of microtonal inflections can occur where, not to mention the different 12- or 14-beat rhythmic patterns that form part of the soloist's consideration..." but it occurs to me that, for example, Eric Clapton is also following certain 'cliches' or unspoken rules/expectations of melodic or rhythmic motion... I guess the larger difference is that in the raga system those cliches are codified and discussed and understood consciously...


Not a large difference, I think. Clapton is following a blues tradition, learned by ear, and specific riffs from B.B. King, Freddie King, Albert King...this could be "codified," but I suspect that it would take some of the life out of it.

Additionally, as an intelligent listener of Ali Akbar Khan (Connoisseur Series), I suspect that it is the 'spontaneous' passages of his playing that I am enjoying, not the freeze-dried codified elements. Since Raga is so melodic, these codified elements are second-nature to them, just 'business as usual' and not what I would consider an essential part of the improvisational spirit that flows through all great improvisors.

India raga is not harmonic music; there are no chord changes, so all the structure elements concern melody and rhythm: what notes to play when ascending, descending, what notes can be bent, motifs that occur, etc.

Western improvisation and jazz have plenty of 'structured conventions.' But since it's harmonically-based music, the structures concern scales and which ones to play over what chord, voicings, etc.

I tried to identify universal "codified" elements of religious music, a few years back on the "Religious Music" forum. One of these codified elements which invoke immersive listening was "the drone." Another was repetition.

I enjoyed your examples of Ethiopian (wow!) and Cambodian music. The "wandering in circles" you mention reminds me of Japanese Gagaku music.
This can all relate to Messiaen, in his declamatory "sonic event/chords" and the way his music makes time stand still. I think Boulez got some of that from him.


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## ArtMusic (Jan 5, 2013)

This is the greatest:


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

This music makes me "immerse" into a sense of holy sacred contemplation. Beautiful! Notice that it's in mixolydian mode with that flatted seventh, which is also associated with psychedelic music.






This Beatles song is also in mixolydian:






As is this one:






And, of course, this one:


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## DeepR (Apr 13, 2012)

You could check out Steve Roach. The guy who took "repetitive atmospheric electronic music about nothing that goes nowhere" (= ambient) to a higher level. I love his music if I don't want to "actively" listen to anything. 
It seems he just started a non-stop stream on Youtube called The Immersion Zone:


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## consuono (Mar 27, 2020)

cheregi said:


> Cambodian court music, gamelan's ugly-duckling cousin. The main melody is subject to constant variation, but it doesn't actually seem to go anywhere or do anything at all - just meander around in circles.


That sounds "bluesy" to me.


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## cheregi (Jul 16, 2020)

consuono said:


> That sounds "bluesy" to me.


I agree - I think the music has a certain rhythmic swing to it, maybe, and the lead melody instrument's sense of ornamentation resembles that of the blues as well. Incidentally Thai classical music uses almost exactly the same instrumental ensembles and musical ideas as the Cambodian form, but there's some almost-imperceptible difference that makes it sound both not bluesy at all to me, and also not at all 'immersive' in the sense of 'music to sink into / be hypnotized by'.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

DeepR said:


> You could check out Steve Roach. The guy who took "repetitive atmospheric electronic music about nothing that goes nowhere" (= ambient) to a higher level. I love his music if I don't want to "actively" listen to anything.
> It seems he just started a non-stop stream on Youtube called The Immersion Zone:


I've heard him. I tend to gravitate towards Eno.

Question: I wonder why "drones" (and repetition) tend to drive many listeners to distraction and make them uncomfortable? I've got an answer, but I'd like to see some responses. No humor, please.

This Steve Reich piece, _Four Organs,_ would, I'm certain, drive many listeners to distraction.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Drones with overtones us a real American phenomenon. Think La Monte Young and Tony Conrad. I've often wondered whether those New York musicians were aware of Scelsi.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Today it has been appropriated by Europeans -- for example Radigue






and Jean Claude Eloy (IMO expanding on ideas in Stockhausen's Hymnen)






and maybe best of all IMO Hafler Trio's Cleave: 9 Great Openings, which is unfortunately not on youtube


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

millionrainbows said:


> I wonder why "drones" . . . tend to drive many listeners to distraction and make them uncomfortable?


Because deep listening is a skill most people can't be bothered to acquire.



millionrainbows said:


> and repetition


What do you think the effect of the repetition is in this?


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

Mandryka said:


> What do you think the effect of the repetition is in this?


I can't see the video you posted:

View attachment 150433


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

SanAntone said:


> I can't see the video you posted:
> 
> View attachment 150433


Shame -- Bernhard Lang, Anatomy of Disaster, Sonata II: Amen Dico Tibi: Hodie Mecum Eris in Paradiso


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

Mandryka said:


> Because deep listening is a skill most people can't be bothered to acquire.


I think it's something else, something psychological.

[/QUOTE]What do you think the effect of the repetition is in this?[/QUOTE]

Can't see this.

Concerning repetition, in Shingon Buddhism, the counting of beads will either drive the initiate to distraction, or enlighten him.

I was in the grocery store early this morning, and apparently their "Muzak" was a CD player. The CD was stuck for about 10 minutes, playing the same loop over and over. I was digging it.

Steve Reich's _It's Gonna Rain_ is like that. What the hell, it's black history month:


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Don’t you like placing your feet in the sand by the ocean’s edge and watching, feeling, and listening
to the waves gradually bury them? Or pulling back a swing, releasing it, and observing it gradually come to rest? Or turning over an hour glass and watching the sand slowly run through the bottom?

That’s repetition.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

A lot of the pop music of today is highly repetitious. I'm referring to the current top ten on Spotify, done on computers, with auto-tuned vocals. Occasionally you can hear it as background radio music in various public places, and stuff like that.

That kind of repetition doesn't have an effect on me; it doesn't send me into "immersive listening." I wonder why that is? Maybe it's the auto-tuned vocals that repel me. I'm cognizant enough to deduce that there is no intent to "enlighten" or "put me into an immersive trance" with this music.

Maybe this is the reason many classical music listeners do not like pop or rock music; it's the repetition of that constant drum beat. To them, it sounds like a form of pop music. They don't "groove" to it.
*MIICMM*


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

See what you make of the drone in Peter Ablinger's Augmented Study, at least, I think it could possibly be a drone.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

millionrainbows said:


> A lot of the pop music of today is highly repetitious. I'm referring to the current top ten on Spotify, done on computers, with auto-tuned vocals. Occasionally you can hear it as background radio music in various public places, and stuff like that.
> 
> That kind of repetition doesn't have an effect on me; it doesn't send me into "immersive listening." I wonder why that is? Maybe it's the auto-tuned vocals that repel me. I'm cognizant enough to deduce that there is no intent to "enlighten" or "put me into an immersive trance" with this music.
> 
> ...


Because sex involves repetitious movements


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

Mandryka said:


> Don't you like placing your feet in the sand by the ocean's edge and watching, feeling, and listening
> to the waves gradually bury them? Or pulling back a swing, releasing it, and observing it gradually come to rest? Or turning over an hour glass and watching the sand slowly run through the bottom?
> 
> That's repetition.


Yes, I do like most repetition, but not every stressed-out distracted person in the world has that kind of mindset.

I was visiting my little sister, and had just made a pot of coffee for us, which I poured into a carafe after brewing it. 
This particular carafe had a tendency to drip and make a mess every time you poured a cup of coffee.
I finally figured out why it was doing this, and excitedly told my sister "I figured out why the carafe is dripping! You just have to pour the coffee slowly, and it won't drip!"
Unimpressed, she replied, "I don't have time to pour coffee slowly!" :lol:


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

Mandryka said:


> Because sex involves repetitious movements
> 
> View attachment 150439


That's it! That's the answer! And I never suspected that it would be so Freudian! :lol:


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## cheregi (Jul 16, 2020)

As much as I agree that repetition in pop music has to do largely with sex... on the other hand, what possible basis could we find for the structure of, say, a Romantic symphony, with its gradual buildup to a climactic release, other than sex? I remember reading something about the prevailing mood of concertgoers before the 20th century being one of agitation, excitement, restlessness, an energy accumulating which demanded dissipation afterwards via drink or fighting or sex...


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Peter Garland's Moon Viewing Music.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

Mandryka said:


> Peter Garland's Moon Viewing Music.


Hmm...I wonder what he means by that...


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## Strange Magic (Sep 14, 2015)

Here is Smashing Pumpkins" amped-up parallel to the Beatles' _Tomorrow Never Knows_: _The Sacred and Profane_--a heavy trip with headphones....


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## Merl (Jul 28, 2016)

In response to the OP, Arvo Part's Tabula Rasa does this for me. I find much of Part's non-choral music perfect for inducing this kind of state in me. Some Post-rock does a similar thing for me, especially bands like God is An Astronaut and If These Trees Could Talk.


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