# Lieder



## Hermastersvoice (Oct 15, 2018)

Since my first introduction to serious music, art song and in particular German Lieder was always a particular interest of mine. As an expression, it is so simple, yet so poignant. So complex, yet so straightforward and tuneful. Schwarzkopf, Fischer-Dieskau, Seefried, De Los Angeles are the heroes on record. I’d still go out of my way to attend a song recital. What do people think?


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

I was fortunate enough to attend a concert around 1990 near Chicago by up and coming Dawn Upshaw accompanied by James Levine. It was an all Schubert programme, and it was magic.


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## Simplicissimus (Feb 3, 2020)

Art Rock said:


> I was fortunate enough to attend a concert around 1990 near Chicago by up and coming Dawn Upshaw accompanied by James Levine. It was an all Schubert programme, and it was magic.


At Ravinia, I imagine. I could have been there - I remember such a concert. Marvelous.


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## Simplicissimus (Feb 3, 2020)

Well, I love German Lieder. I've been into classical music my whole life, but Lieder didn't click for me until I was about 40 years old, which is when I started getting much more interested in vocal music. I heard a radio show featuring Kathleen Ferrier and I was startled by how much I suddenly liked Mahler's _Kindertotenlieder_. Then I got into Schubert, Hugo Wolf, Schumann, R. Strauss et al. During various periods living in Germany I found it much easier to enjoy Lieder performances live, on TV, and on the radio than in the States or other countries; that is, Lieder are popular in Germany even in the present day. My experience is that there's a continuum from the art Lieder of Schubert et al. down to some pretty kitschy popular stuff, the kind where you roll your eyes and say, "Ach ja, der alte Förster streichelt traumverloren seinen Hund." For fans of Lieder, there are endless discussions of composers, works, and of course performers. And there are TC threads on those topics.


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## Coach G (Apr 22, 2020)

There are lots of great German Lieder, Schubert and Schumann, Brahms' _German Songs_, Wagner's _Wesendonck_, Richard Strauss' _Four Last Songs_, _Mahler's Song of the Wayfarer_. In the English language, I don't think anyone I can think of composed better for the voice than England's Benjamin Britten (_Serenade for Tenor, Horn and Strings_) and America's own, Samuel Barber (_Knoxville: Summer of 1915_, _Dover Beach_, _Hermit Songs_).


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

Simplicissimus said:


> My experience is that there's a continuum from the art Lieder of Schubert et al. down to some pretty kitschy popular stuff, the kind where you roll your eyes and say, "Ach ja, der alte Förster streichelt traumverloren seinen Hund."


I've been thinking about this for sometime, since we had the thread <Do you consider Opera music to be classical music?>. What makes classical music lieder different from the Beatles' songs, for example? If we can use the term "Art Lieder" to describe classical music lieder, can we also use terms like "Art Salonmusic", or "Art Tafelmusik" as well?






*[ 44:00 ]*


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

So often when we think about lieder, Schubert, Schumann and Brahms appear to dominate. But some of my favorite lieder is by *Othmar Schoeck*, and *Franz Liszt* - both of which have been given excellent complete recordings. The Hyperian Liszt series might still be ongoing, but they have issued six to date, and Schoeck's lieder have been available for a while.

Pictured are the first volumes of each.

View attachment 137721


View attachment 137720


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

Coach G said:


> There are lots of great German Lieder, Schubert and Schumann, Brahms' _German Songs_, Wagner's _Wesendonck_, Richard Strauss' _Four Last Songs_, _Mahler's Song of the Wayfarer_. In the English language, I don't think anyone I can think of composed better for the voice than England's Benjamin Britten (_Serenade for Tenor, Horn and Strings_) and America's own, Samuel Barber (_Knoxville: Summer of 1915_, _Dover Beach_, _Hermit Songs_).


Also Richard Strauss wrote a lot of lieder, varying between excellent and sublime. Fischer-Dieskau and Gerald Moore did a great box of pretty well all his lieder a few years ago. Well worth seeking out. Also the lieder of Hugo Wolf is quite wonderful.


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## annaw (May 4, 2019)

hammeredklavier said:


> I've been thinking about this for sometime, since we had the thread <Do you consider Opera music to be classical music?>.* What makes classical music lieder different from the Beatles' songs, for example? *If we can use the term "Art Lieder" to describe classical music lieder, can we also use terms like "Art Salonmusic", or "Art Tafelmusik" as well?


This has been more thoroughly discussed in other threads, like the one you mention, but there are aspects that clearly make it stand apart from popular music. It's usually performed with piano (or in some cases orchestral) accompaniment, most of the time the voice is not amplified using a microphone, singing is in classical not popular style and probably most importantly, they are composed in accordance with Western classical music tradition.

Lieder was my main intro into vocal music as I couldn't really stand opera, which interestingly has become my favourite classical music genre, at that time. I was hooked by DFD's recordings but now that I've heard more different interpretations I've also acquired new favourites - like Wunderlich. I also really like Wolf's lieder and Carl Loewe wrote some wonderful works as well.


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## larold (Jul 20, 2017)

I've attended lieder recitals in recent years by Stephen Genz and Matthias Goerne and local singers but I more enjoy singing it than going to recitals. I belong to a mainstream Protestant church, sing in the choir, and have sung several lied in church. Last was Beethoven's _Die Ehres Gottes aus der Natur_ whose message was appropriate. There's not much Schubert one could sing in church.


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

FWIW, these are my 12 favourite song cycles (I consider Mahler's Das Lied von der Erde a symphony, not a song cycle; likewise, Shostakovich' 14th and Penderecki's 6th symphonies are not included for that reason):

Franz Schubert - Die schöne Müllerin [1823]
Franz Schubert - Winterreise [1828]
Modest Mussorgsky - Songs and Dances of Death [1877]
Gustav Mahler - Lieder eines fahrenden Gesellen [1886]
Maurice Ravel - Shéhérazade [1903]
Gustav Mahler - Kindertotenlieder [1904]
Ralph Vaughan Williams - On Wenlock Edge [1909]
Gustav Mahler - Rückert-Lieder [1910]
Peter Warlock - The curlew [1922]
Richard Strauss - Vier letzte Lieder [1948]
Valentyn Sylvestrov - Quiet songs [1975]
Aulis Sallinen - Songs of Life and Death [1995]


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Hermastersvoice said:


> Since my first introduction to serious music, art song and in particular German Lieder was always a particular interest of mine. As an expression, it is so simple, yet so poignant. So complex, yet so straightforward and tuneful. Schwarzkopf, Fischer-Dieskau, Seefried, De Los Angeles are the heroes on record. I'd still go out of my way to attend a song recital. What do people think?


At the moment, when I want to hear German lieder, I go to Wolfgang Rihm, Das Rot.


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

Aside from Winterreise, it took me a long time to enjoy Schubert's lieder. But it just needed a little bit of attention and now I love it greatly. In the meantime, I probably came to lieder via Britten as much as anyone, and his many song cycles have delighted me for decades. His influence on what is for me Shotakovich's best symphony (14) - essentially a song cycle - is obvious. Since Britten song cycles have been major forms for many composers (think Boulez, Kurtag and others). 

Quite a lot depends on the singer and this adds more variety into the experience of listening to art songs - we have both the sounds different singers make as well as matters of interpretation. Is the voice our most flexible and affecting instrument? We can't say what much classical music is about but with songs, of course, we can.


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## Allegro Con Brio (Jan 3, 2020)

Art song with piano accompaniment is probably my least favorite classical genre (i.e. the genre I listen to least) but when it's performed well it's magical. The Hotter/Moore Winterreise, for example, though as far as Schubert goes I actually prefer Die Schone Mullerin. I'm also a fan of Hugo Wolf and the French melodies of Faure and Debussy. Generally I prefer song cycles with extra instrumental color than just the piano - something like _Pierrot Lunaire_ and _Le marteau sans maitre_, or anything with full orchestral accompaniment.


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## wkasimer (Jun 5, 2017)

larold said:


> There's not much Schubert one could sing in church.


Schubert set at least two psalms (23 and 92) for chorus. I've certainly sung #92 in both church and synagogue choirs.


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## flamencosketches (Jan 4, 2019)

Mandryka said:


> At the moment, when I want to hear German lieder, I go to Wolfgang Rihm, Das Rot.


Sounds interesting so far, thanks for the reference.


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## Superflumina (Jun 19, 2020)

Not a huge fan of Schwarzkopf, Fischer-Dieskau also isn't my favorite when it comes to lieder. In Schubert I prefer tenors like Wunderlich, Bostridge, Werner Güra and Christoph Pregardien.


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## Rogerx (Apr 27, 2018)

Gundula Janowitz in The Hauge- Netherlands, small scale but unforgettable


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## NLAdriaan (Feb 6, 2019)

This thread makes me realize I am a big fan of Das Lied, especially Wolf, Schumann, Schubert, Weill, Canteloube, but I never went to a Lied concert. I will certainly change this, as soon as concerts will begin again.


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## Rogerx (Apr 27, 2018)

NLAdriaan said:


> This thread makes me realize I am a big fan of Das Lied, especially Wolf, Schumann, Schubert, Weill, Canteloube, but I never went to a Lied concert. I will certainly change this, as soon as concerts will begin again.


Jessye Norman performed Das Lied in Rotterdam, years ago, it was breathtaking.


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