# Reverse Snobbism Against Classical Music



## superhorn (Mar 23, 2010)

Many people who are not into classical music and know little or nothing about it assume, wrongly,of course,
that classical music fans must be "snobs" who look down of people for being fans of Pop music, Rock, Jazz, or any other musicla genre. 
The assumption is that the classical music world is snooty and snobbish, and that classical music is 
"stuffy, boring and elitist". You're an opera fan ? Hmmm. you must be one of those snobbish people who go to the opera but just for social reasons, and youre really bored ot tears by opera .
And they assume often, that classical music itself is really boring stuff. Uncool. It's music "Dead White European Males" written centuries ago. It can't possibly have any relevance to the present day or to me .
Who needs it?  Why should I wast emy time listening to such hopelessly dated, uncool stuff ?
Such attitudes are widespread today, and not only in America . There's double standard. It's perfectly okay to knock classical music, but any lover of classical who defends it and tries to debunk myths about it must be 
an elitist and a snob. And if you try to defend it, it's automatically assumed that you're doing this out of snobbism, and elitism . 
The whole issue of superiority and inferiority in music is a dicey one, filled with intelectual boobytraps .. 
Some classical music lovers actually say outright that classical music is "superior" to Rock or Pop etc.
But this is dangerous , because it fills people who love other kinds of music, which is certainly their right, with resentment, and tends to close theoir minds to the possibility of giving classical music a chance . . So it's not a good idea to say this, if you love classical music . 
But De Gustibus None Est Disputandum . We should all just live and let live , and accept the fact that there is no accounting for taste . One genre of music does not invalidate another . So don't knock Pop or Rock etc.
But don't knock classical music, either , especially if you're unfamiliar with it.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

superhorn said:


> Many people who are not into classical music and know little or nothing about it assume, wrongly,of course,
> that classical music fans must be "snobs" who look down of people for being fans of Pop music, Rock, Jazz, or any other musicla genre.
> ... The whole issue of superiority and inferiority in music is a dicey one, filled with intelectual boobytraps ..
> Some classical music lovers actually say outright that classical music is "superior" to Rock or Pop etc...


What you say there, it shows there is snobbism or snob attitude from adherents of all types of music. It speaks to lack of understanding and liking to put people in a neat 'box.'

But I personally don't put classical above other genres, even though I mainly listen to classical music. All people I personally know who like classical tend to be like that as well. They might say they don't like a certain rock star or something like that, but they don't say that that means all rock is junk compared to classical.

I think music, including classical music, is like a smorgasbord. You take from it what you want, according to your taste, mood, needs, etc. It's very personal.

& those who put other genres below classical, there's a hell of a lot of non-classical musicians out there who started off in classical. Look at the recently deceased Jon Lord (co-founder of 'Deep Purple' band), who up till his late teens studied piano, and was well versed in classical music up till then and throughout his life. In his final years, he made a number of purely classical albums, with the likes of the Royal Liverpool Philharmonic Orchestra. Lord was no 'mickey mouse' composer, whether with his classical hat on, or his rock hat on (or both, since he was at the forefront of the fusion genre in the 1970's).

Then there are musicians who started off in classical but went to more popular areas of the classical universe. Like light classical musicians such as Andre Rieu, film composers like Howard Shore or John Williams, or composers of musical theatre like Andrew Lloyd Webber. It must be said that online these guys tend to get the rough end of the stick, but I know a few classical listeners who like them (& I am one). There are few people out there who at least don't like at least one musical of Lloyd Webber's.

Then there are the likes of Burt Bacharach and Dave Brubeck, both classically trained, and highly innovative and creative in their own fields. Eg. Dionne Warwick said Bacharach's songs are not easy to sing, many tempo and key changes there, so the singer has to be at the top of his/her game to pull it off well.

So my view is that classical listeners can be inclusive and not snobbish or elitist. But I think online it can get a bit sectarian, however this forum is not as sectarian as it was when I joined up 3 years back. But I'm a person who sees little need to categorise genres since I like variety, within my 'comfort zones' (which are based on taste/need/etc., not on what I see as inherently 'better' or 'superior' etc.).


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

Can you give examples of these wide spread attitudes? You seem to be making some assumptions as well. I've never met anyone in real life who put down classical music. I'm sure there is a lot of indifference due to ignorance and lack of exposure, but I'm not aware of large numbers of people knocking classical music. There's an awful lot of classical music fans who knock the classical music they don't like. We see that here at this forum.

"Brahms sucks" "Xenakis is noise" "Stockhausen is a charlatan" "Boulez sounds like ice cubes clinking in a glass" etc.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

I think this article talks to this issue strongly, a debate between a lover of classical and a lover of rock. Interesting conversation.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/jul/13/conversation-proms-classical-rock-music


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## superhorn (Mar 23, 2010)

Here's an example of blatant reverse snobbism which I observed many years ago on television on PBS.
On a program, there was a debate about whether the U.S. government should provide financial help to opera companies and symphpony orchestras .
There was a young aspiring soprano who was beginning to make a career in opera who argued for it, and a jazz critc who argued against it . The jazz critic was an arrogant SOB who claimed that the government should not support opera companies because "opera is an elite european art form, not an American one", and opera audiences went to the opera merely to "see and be seen" ,not to enjoy the opera.
What an ignorant, snobbish jerlk ! I wished I could have been there to give him a piece of my mind.
He obviously did not know diddly sqaut about opera, and blindly accepted stereotypes about it . According to him, Jazz was a valid kind of music in America, but not opera . Did he know that european opera was popular in America long before Jazz came into existence ? I doubt it. Did he know that opera is an international art form, and that many of America's leading composers have written operas which have been performed with great success in America and Europe? Did he know that opera fans are just as passionate about opera as sports fans are about their home teams ? I doubt it .
I could hear the sneering snobbism this jazz critic's voice . I've heard many examples of Pop musicians and others who sneer at classical music . Whjy is it okay for them to do this, but not for classical musicians to knock other kinds of music ?


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

Classical music fans do knock other kinds of music. The kind (including 20th century classical) they don't like.

I can add to my list of quotations from members here. " There's nothing worth listening to after 1945."

Here's another one. "Schoenberg's violin concerto sounds like chicken scratch" 

As for the jazz snob? I have no time for narrow minded individuals, music fans or not.


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## neoshredder (Nov 7, 2011)

People who put down Rock or Metal annoy me. I love Classical and Metal. Why does one have to trash Metal to boost Classical?


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

neoshredder said:


> People who put down Rock or Metal annoy me. I love Classical and Metal. Why does one have to trash Metal to boost Classical?


Basically to create a false dichotomy. Sorry but I write this phrase here all the time.

I don't think one has to trash or toilet anything to boost anything else. But basically it speaks to an agenda, of a type which does not admit strong personal preference or bias.

Its okay for someone to say they like something on its own terms. But in the middle of heated arguments about the merits of something, one often gets creation of false dichotomies. An ancient one was the Brahms vs. Wagner 'debate.' Or that you have to like certain types of music from whatever era - be it Baroque, Classical, Romantic, Modern, post-1945 - to be a 'real' or 'genuine' fan of that era. Or concerning a composer, you have to love certain works of his to be in his 'club' (or even certain recordings!). I mean this is ridiculous. I can say I like Romantic music if I like Brahms and not Wagner, or vice-versa, or I can like both. I can like Brahm's symphonies or Wagner's operas no matter what recordings of them I listen to.

Again, its the need to put people in boxes according to what you perceive or stereotype as their taste. Basically so you can prop up, 'prove,' or further an agenda. Most of the times online its about that.


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## Andreas (Apr 27, 2012)

Sometimes, when I was asked what music I liked, I didn't mention classical music at all, or I mixed it up with some other music like rock and jazz to make it less shocking. Or I sort of made fun of it by referring to it as "that classical junk" or something to that effect. Among most people around my age it would raise some serious eyebrows if I flat out told them that I liked Ludwig van Beethoven and Johann Sebastian Bach.

To some extent, one does exclude oneself from pop culture and therefore from the large majority of people. It's similar to saying that you don't watch TV. I don't think it necessarily makes people think you're an elitist. It might just be that they feel that there's so much you don't share with them.

One learns that when growing up: social contacts are also about sharing the same cultural experiences, listening to music everyone knows, watching popular TV shows. At least everyone's familiar with everything, which allows you to communicate.

I fond that with most people, when you tell them you like classical music, perhaps even only classical music, you pretty much tell them: I don't share your cultural experiences and preferences. That's social estrangement right there.


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

Yeah classical music is uncool and has nothing to do with modern society. Classical music listeners are so snobbish and look down on the _real_ music of today. They're all old people too who are boring just like their music.

Just listen to this crap classical old people music:


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

^ Post riddled with sarcasm.


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## neoshredder (Nov 7, 2011)

I would say the old people tend to like the Late Romantic Era. I know that's a stereotype but it just seems like those long symphonies would suit them. But 20th Century Classical Music might be too dissonant for them. Especially Ligeti.  Ligeti is for the cool and non-conservative types.


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## Aksel (Dec 3, 2010)

superhorn said:


> You're an opera fan ? Hmmm. you must be one of those snobbish people who go to the opera but just for social reasons, and youre really bored ot tears by opera .


Yes. As a 19 year old male I fully support this statement. I only go to the opera so that I can seem cooler to my peers.


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## HarpsichordConcerto (Jan 1, 2010)

We used to have a member here who practised the art of reverse snobbery here at TC. The member would declare that many members here, including me, were classical music snobs etc. Though the member's own comments about Mozart and the whole of opera being total garbage compared with a heavy metal rock group that the member adores, would not at all be considered sobbery. It must be a new school of thought that I have never studied for such a mentality.


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## Very Senior Member (Jul 16, 2009)

starthrower said:


> Can you give examples of these wide spread attitudes? You seem to be making some assumptions as well. I've never met anyone in real life who put down classical music. I'm sure there is a lot of indifference due to ignorance and lack of exposure, but I'm not aware of large numbers of people knocking classical music. There's an awful lot of classical music fans who knock the classical music they don't like. We see that here at this forum.
> 
> "Brahms sucks" "Xenakis is noise" "Stockhausen is a charlatan" "Boulez sounds like ice cubes clinking in a glass" etc.


I would like to endorse your comments on the whole.

I cannot recall ever coming across anyone who has expressed openly to my face any kind of sneering attitude towards either classical music in general or my tastes in particular.

On the few occasions that the subject of music may have come up in ordinary conversation, most people I encounter couldn't give a hoot and quickly find some way to change the subject altogether.

It's rare to find people of any maturity who don't like any aspect of classical music. I'm not interested in the adverse opinions of chldren because their opinions are probalbly ill-formed, and may change in due course. Most older people that I know are too polite to engage in any kind of critcism of my tastes. Likewise I would never dream of trying to belittle any one's tastes in music, whatever it was.

In fact I can't ever recall being asked what my tastes in music are as a direct question initiated by the other party. It's usually me who raises the topic, and if I get a response that suggests they don't wish to pursue that line of conversation I never push my luck. Maybe some people in a similar situation do press the subject, and get more than they bargained for by way of negatve comment in return. If so, they shouldn't have got involved in the first place.

I would agree that there's probably more strong opinion on the subject of classical musiic from within its band of supporters than from outside.

All in all, I think this subject is an empty box.


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## science (Oct 14, 2010)

starthrower said:


> Can you give examples of these wide spread attitudes? You seem to be making some assumptions as well. I've never met anyone in real life who put down classical music. I'm sure there is a lot of indifference due to ignorance and lack of exposure, but I'm not aware of large numbers of people knocking classical music. There's an awful lot of classical music fans who knock the classical music they don't like. We see that here at this forum.
> 
> "Brahms sucks" "Xenakis is noise" "Stockhausen is a charlatan" "Boulez sounds like ice cubes clinking in a glass" etc.


Exactly. I've never suffered any snobbery or reverse snobbery in my life over my taste in music or what I don't know yet about music. The only place I have to deal with that is on the internet.


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## Sonata (Aug 7, 2010)

I've not really encountered this either....though my intense interest in classical music is only about a year old. I WILL say my sister is quite critical of music she doesn't like, so if she heard me listening to certain subgenres, say choral or opera, I do feel she would be one of these people. But I think that's also because she's my sister and likes to push my buttons, I couldn't really see her saying it to a casual aquaintence. 

Actually, I was playing some Corelli concertos last month at work, and the lab tech actually said "I like your music, that's beautiful"


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

science said:


> Exactly. I've never suffered any snobbery or reverse snobbery in my life over my taste in music or what I don't know yet about music. The only place I have to deal with that is on the internet.


Right! These are pseudo events staged on internet forums. We've all witnessed how people respond in real life situations when it comes to the music they don't like. They just change the station. At live performances they talk through the music, hang out in the lobby, or nod off.

The last new music chamber performance I attended was hilarious. 98% of the audience looked to be 75 or older, and many of them were nodding off during the performances. I felt sorry for the young performers and composers in attendance. This was a free, Sunday afternoon recital, so it's hopefully not representative of the scene at large.


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## superhorn (Mar 23, 2010)

If you go to You tube, you can see a series of hilarious rap videos caled "epic rap battles", between various different famous people in history, voiced and played by actors .
One of them is Justin Bieber vs Beethoven". It's a blast ! It pokes fun at some people's negative attitudes toward classical music . The guy playing Bieber sneers at Beethoven, and asks "Who listens to classical music anyway, among other things. Then the guy playing Beethoven puts Bieber in his place .
There are also similar rap wars between Sarah Palin and Lady Gaga, Genghis Khan vs the Easter bunny !, Chuck Norris vs Abe Lincoln , and others .


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## Ramako (Apr 28, 2012)

superhorn said:


> Justin Bieber vs Beethoven"


Go Beethoven!!!


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## bigshot (Nov 22, 2011)

I don't think classical music is snobbish, but I have to admit some of its fans are.


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## LordBlackudder (Nov 13, 2010)

i suppose if upper and middle classes like something the underclasses will label it as snobbish.

every class has its differences i don't see why using opera for a social reason or being elitist is wrong.

i reckon classical music fans are actually more accepting of other genres than pop or other music fans.


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## beetzart (Dec 30, 2009)

I always go by the maxim, 'if I like it I'll listen to it'. That normally excludes the processed bilge that gets rammed into every commercial radio station playlist in the country on endless repeat, inbetween adverts for jumped up local taxi firms who promise the earth, and 3 yotta seconds of the 'boring' stuff like talking or the news.

But I like stuff like Radiohead, The Beatles, Beach Boys, Supergrass, etc. But nothing beats classical for me. I can't describe it, I don't think anyone can really, and that is why this forum has thousands of posts, although perhaps when the next species of hominid emerges with an increased brain efficiency they might be able to, maybe. For something like the last movement of Beethoven's 9th, no words exist to give it justice. A bit like trying to explain the spin of an electron when it isn't actually spinning. A nearly deaf man composing something like that seems beyond human. No one has done anything since close to it. The chances he did write it under such circumstances are astronomical, a one off in humanities existence. Personally I class Beethoven as the greatest human ever, but that's off topic.

I always see classical composers as fighting an eternal struggle with themselves. Some say most of them were bipolar, possibly, but it's hard to quantify. I suppose it is also the longevity of the music. Did Bach, when writing some partita, wonder if would still be played over 200 years later?


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## Huilunsoittaja (Apr 6, 2010)

CAVEAT:

I think people are allowed to dislike and even _criticize _music they don't like _if they can support their claim effectively and respectfully._ As I may have said before on this forum, I don't believe all kinds of music are for everyone, just as not all vocations are for everyone. People should be allowed to like _and _dislike what they want. You could say this is backwards Relativism. Most would say, "You don't have right to criticize this piece because everything is _good _to somebody." But one can also say, "You don't have a right to criticize my opinions because everything is _bad _to somebody." That's what _true _tolerance is all about, it's a reciprocal acknowledgement of differing parties that they can agree to disagree.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

What the various responses above say to me is that there are 'snobs' of all kinds. Not only classical snobs but jazz snobs (superhorn's example of the TV interview), hip-hop snobs, techno snobs, rock snobs, etc. etc.

So its about attitude, a frame of mind, not necessarily about what you listen to or don't.

I agree with science, online its easier to encounter this attitude, I mean often people kind of pump up their egos by saying these kinds of things. But in real life, as people have said above, its not a good look. It basically speaks to arrogance, and not many people like that attitude, its a huge downer basically.

This thread I made ages ago about the cliches associated with classical music, and fans of it, speaks to this topic as well. It was done after reading a book by Andrew Ford, an Australian writer on music, as well as broadcaster and composer. I enjoy reading his books, and even went to public lecture of his, as his attitude is very down to earth and open. So as I said, its about attitude.

http://www.talkclassical.com/12659-naming-dispelling-cliches-classical.html


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## Jaws (Jun 4, 2011)

I do think that the concert dress for classical music concerts needs to be modernised. What is wrong with smart casual for a classical music concert dress? Some concert dress here in the UK is like the kind of thing that the male servants in large houses used to wear, what sort of message does that send out? Black bow ties and white shirts are like when people used to dress for dinner..... No wonder some people think that classical music isn't for them.


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## beetzart (Dec 30, 2009)

I try not to mention my like for classical music to just anyone because I have been severely chastised for it in the past. Once bitten and all that. People have treated with me with utter contempt for listening to a Mozart Piano Sonata on my headphones. And I have never brazenly pushed my taste of music on anyone it is just that, in places like work, I am forced to listen to endless tripe on the radio to satisfy other's choice of noise. I put up with because I am in a minority, but people do wonder why I never say 'Oh, I love this choon!'. Even liking Radiohead, or Blur is seen as odd. I agree with LordBlackudder in that classical music fans are more accepting of other genres.

I just wanted to add an example between my brother and I. He never took any interest in my music when we were kids. Not the slightest, and I never tried to sway him. He really got into Dance and Techno, Jungle, Rave, and stuff like Korn, and Limp Bizkit. Now there was an overlap with our tastes but it only worked one way. I couldn't bare 95% of his music but some of it I could and purchased also. Mainly The Prodigy, some Korn, and Green Day, and sometimes I still play it. But he never even tried to give Mozart a go, etc, but that is his choice yet reinforces the point made in the last paragraph.


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## neoshredder (Nov 7, 2011)

Korn is cool. I like their use of dissonance. Sturm und Drang of the 20th Century?


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## TrazomGangflow (Sep 9, 2011)

I appriciate most genres of music and try not to put any down. But I look at it this way: By definition music is an art. As long as a specific song or composition (whether I enjoy it or not) can be considered an art and took some effort to compose and produce I'll respect it. I won't show respect for some music, mainly the majority of top 40 music because most musicians (and I use that word lightly) sing (again, I use that word lightly considering a large portion of top 40 musicians are auto-tuned) or play the same thing over and over and didn't even write it themselves. Being a musician used to mean something. It took work and dedication. I refuse to respect any musician who became famous because they had a good producer behind them.


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## superhorn (Mar 23, 2010)

I pity you, Beetzart(love that username!). But never be afraid to defend classical music in a polite way, of cpourse. Just tell people that classical music is awesome and they don't know what they're missing !
Don't be afraid to let people know you love classical music. 
On my blog, The Horn, at the website blogiversity.org, I try to debunk myths about classical music and explain it for people who are new to it or might like to try it. I make it a point never to knock other kinds of music lest I come across as a snob on my blog . You can easily access my blog from the blogiversity home page.
Blogiversity.org is a website with a blogs on a wide variety of topics, and I cover classical music for it.
All aspects of it, composers, performers, repertoire, music history, current events in the field , orchestral music, opera , etc, and even have classical music jokes at times.


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## BurningDesire (Jul 15, 2012)

I've been called a snob because I like classical music, or a pretentious elitist. I've dealt with snobbish people from many different varieties of music (honestly, the worst are snobby heavy metal fans, by far. WAY snobbier than snobby classical fans.) I think people need to be open to more music. There's tons of brilliant stuff in the "classical" world, obviously, but there's also tons of brilliant stuff in pop and jazz and rock and folk and hip hop and electronic and whatever else you care to name. TONS of great music, you just gotta keep an open mind, and somethings you may need to learn to enjoy, but if you're not too lazy for that, there's a huge world of music out there for you


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## neoshredder (Nov 7, 2011)

BurningDesire said:


> I've been called a snob because I like classical music, or a pretentious elitist. I've dealt with snobbish people from many different varieties of music (honestly, the worst are snobby heavy metal fans, by far. WAY snobbier than snobby classical fans.) I think people need to be open to more music. There's tons of brilliant stuff in the "classical" world, obviously, but there's also tons of brilliant stuff in pop and jazz and rock and folk and hip hop and electronic and whatever else you care to name. TONS of great music, you just gotta keep an open mind, and somethings you may need to learn to enjoy, but if you're not too lazy for that, there's a huge world of music out there for you


As long as I don't have to learn to like todays music. (Bieber, Gaga, Spears, Aguilera, and all that junk)


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## samurai (Apr 22, 2011)

Andreas said:


> Sometimes, when I was asked what music I liked, I didn't mention classical music at all, or I mixed it up with some other music like rock and jazz to make it less shocking. Or I sort of made fun of it by referring to it as "that classical junk" or something to that effect. Among most people around my age it would raise some serious eyebrows if I flat out told them that I liked Ludwig van Beethoven and Johann Sebastian Bach.
> 
> To some extent, one does exclude oneself from pop culture and therefore from the large majority of people. It's similar to saying that you don't watch TV. I don't think it necessarily makes people think you're an elitist. It might just be that they feel that there's so much you don't share with them.
> 
> ...


@ Superhorn, I was just wondering whether the jazz critic cited by you would have been Nat Hentoff, with his frequently "politically correct" { before the term was even invented} assertions and observations on both the political and musical landscapes?


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

Doesn't sound like a Net Hentoff attitude. He's pretty open minded, and I never considered him politically correct. He pretty much speaks his mind. He's a well known advocate concerning first ammendments rights, and has written about it for years in addition to his jazz writing.


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## superhorn (Mar 23, 2010)

No, it couldn't have been Nat Hentoff, because he has written very enthusiastically about classical music .
The Jazz critic on PBS was obvioulsy totally ignorant of opera . Any one who attends opera performances knows how passionately involved opera fans are with the performance, and how enthusiastic and opinionated they are .


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## BurningDesire (Jul 15, 2012)

neoshredder said:


> As long as I don't have to learn to like todays music. (Bieber, Gaga, Spears, Aguilera, and all that junk)


Christian Aguilera is actually a really good singer, and Lady Gaga is a good musician and not a bad composer, so you shouldn't rank them among insipid artists like Bieber and non-artists like Spears. Also, there is plenty of great music being written these days, you just need to actually look around. Top 40 Radio isn't the only game out there.


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## bigshot (Nov 22, 2011)

Lady Gaga isn't a very good piano player.


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## bigshot (Nov 22, 2011)

Personally, I think a lot of classical music fans actually are snobs. I think the pretention some people wrap around themselves with turns a lot of ordinary people off to classical music... that and the concept that only people of refined tastes can pick the "proper" performances.


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## science (Oct 14, 2010)

Maybe I just don't meet the right (or wrong) people. I _am_ a movie snob, but no one calls me that. They say that they don't like watching movies with me, and tell me to shut up when I comment during a movie.

I didn't comment during _Inception_ (which I never would've paid to see in the theater anyway and probably still wouldn't've seen if not for someone giving my wife and I free tickets) but about thirty minutes in I told my wife that we could leave anytime if she didn't like the movie, and even that was evidently too much!

But for some reason people just accept that I like movies that they don't, and that they like movies that I don't, and that people have different tastes, but don't try to watch a movie with that guy because he'll ruin it for you. No name-calling that I'm aware of (who really knows what they say behind my back).


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

Here I found an article that does give some examples of snobbism in classical music, which some have talked to above. I'm not saying I agree or disagree, just adding this to the mix. The article is by Andrew Mellor:
http://www.newstatesman.com/blogs/l...-about-more-elite-parties-and-private-schools

To summarise:
- The ritual of concerts and opera, and all the obsession with clapping at the right moment, the way you dress, etc.
- Advertisements in concert/opera programs for private schools (associated with the rich)
- Racism
- Orchestras/opera companies doing fundraisers, image of the 'in' crowd who can pay big bucks to be part of this
- Focus on things that are superficial, not the music itself (& also the intellectualising 'ivory tower' mentality)


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## BurningDesire (Jul 15, 2012)

I don't think "clapping at the right time" is an unreasonable expectation nor is it snobbish to expect people to abide by it. When you clap in the middle of a piece, its annoying and rude. I guess things are different in England, this is pretty different from the classical concerts I've seen in the US.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

BurningDesire said:


> I don't think "clapping at the right time" is an unreasonable expectation nor is it snobbish to expect people to abide by it. When you clap in the middle of a piece, its annoying and rude. I guess things are different in England, this is pretty different from the classical concerts I've seen in the US.


Well, the premise is that if you attract 'newbies' to classical concerts and opera, they may well clap at the wrong time, as they are new to this experience. Giving people like that dirty looks will most likely deter them from coming to more live concerts/opera. That's the gist of that issue in the context of 'snobbism.'

But its more relaxed here too. So too dress for concerts/opera. Many people go 'smart casual' style. In terms of concert etiquette, what I hate is mobile phones going off, but most people by now know to turn theirs off before the performance.


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## maestro267 (Jul 25, 2009)

BurningDesire said:


> I don't think "clapping at the right time" is an unreasonable expectation nor is it snobbish to expect people to abide by it. When you clap in the middle of a piece, its annoying and rude. I guess things are different in England, this is pretty different from the classical concerts I've seen in the US.


It's not annoying and rude if you clap in the middle of a rock song during a rock concert. With the Proms season in full swing, the applause-between-movements debate is also in full swing. While I don't like it (because it breaks the flow of the piece, unlike coughing, which is a less intrusive sound), I've learned that it's simply impossible to tell everyone who will ever attend a concert for the first time not to applaud in the "wrong" place. This is a major advantage of listening at home on the radio or watching on TV. You can turn the volume down during the gaps between movements if you want to preserve the silence for yourself. And if the programme includes a message not to applaud, people will pull their 'snobbery' and 'elitist' cards once again. Basically, it's a no-win situation. So I've given up on it. If they want to applaud (to break this supposed 'snobbery'), let them. We can't do anything to stop it, so why bother trying?


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## Toddlertoddy (Sep 17, 2011)

Sid James said:


> But its more relaxed here too. So too dress for concerts/opera. Many people go 'smart casual' style. In terms of concert etiquette, what I hate is mobile phones going off, but most people by now know to turn theirs off before the performance.


It's incredibly relaxed here too in Vancouver. Because Vancouver is pretty diverse, that race prejudice does not apply here. However, it's usually the elderly white people who dress formally and the young adults and teenagers who will dress "smart-casually". Another thing that I notice is that teenagers and children tend to sit near the front to see the soloist better, I guess.


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## BurningDesire (Jul 15, 2012)

maestro267 said:


> It's not annoying and rude if you clap in the middle of a rock song during a rock concert. With the Proms season in full swing, the applause-between-movements debate is also in full swing. While I don't like it (because it breaks the flow of the piece, unlike coughing, which is a less intrusive sound), I've learned that it's simply impossible to tell everyone who will ever attend a concert for the first time not to applaud in the "wrong" place. This is a major advantage of listening at home on the radio or watching on TV. You can turn the volume down during the gaps between movements if you want to preserve the silence for yourself. And if the programme includes a message not to applaud, people will pull their 'snobbery' and 'elitist' cards once again. Basically, it's a no-win situation. So I've given up on it. If they want to applaud (to break this supposed 'snobbery'), let them. We can't do anything to stop it, so why bother trying?


Actually it annoys me when people shout and scream in the middle of a piece at a rock concert, if they're right next to me, it can be very annoying and distracting. I don't think its impossible. All you'd need to do is have a polite announcement at the beginning of the concert, along with the message to turn off cell phones one that asks people to hold applause till the ends of entire pieces. If somebody wants to call that snobbery, well honestly they can shove it, because they're just being jerks at that point.


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## BurningDesire (Jul 15, 2012)

Sid James said:


> Well, the premise is that if you attract 'newbies' to classical concerts and opera, they may well clap at the wrong time, as they are new to this experience. Giving people like that dirty looks will most likely deter them from coming to more live concerts/opera. That's the gist of that issue in the context of 'snobbism.'
> 
> But its more relaxed here too. So too dress for concerts/opera. Many people go 'smart casual' style. In terms of concert etiquette, what I hate is mobile phones going off, but most people by now know to turn theirs off before the performance.


Thats why you politely inform the audience where they should applaud. I usually don't glare at somebody clapping at the end of movements, but I tend to when they clap during a segue or at a false climax or a silence, like they're just waiting for the piece to be over so they can leave. Maybe thats not the case, but when you hear clapping half a second into a silence, it really seems like somebody is at the concert as a chore, and I have no sympathy for them ruining a performance.


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

Sid James said:


> Well, the premise is that if you attract 'newbies' to classical concerts and opera, they may well clap at the wrong time, as they are new to this experience. Giving people like that dirty looks will most likely deter them from coming to more live concerts/opera. That's the gist of that issue in the context of 'snobbism.'


When _I'm_ performing and the audience claps at the wrong time, I give _them_ dirty looks.


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## Andreas (Apr 27, 2012)

Thinking of it, the atmosphere at a concert is kind of sterile. Everything happens according to protocol. Take a seat, keep your mouth shut, wait for the end of the piece, then appaude, the conductor takes his bows, leaves, comes back, several times, then the flower girl hands him his bouquet, applaude some more, then get your coat and go home. It's almost as if the applause is part of the performance.

It's fascinating to read accounts of concerts from the 19th century. People would jeer or whistle if they didn't like the piece, or simply leave in mid-performance, and at the end they'd either cheer or boo or anything in between. I couldn't imagine booing after a performance, even if I hated it. Does it ever happen anymore? At the opera perhaps? I don't think it would hurt.

I could well imagine that people are turned off by this stiff and choreographed interaction between classical music performers and audiences. It probably seems like you go visit the Queen of England, all dressed up and with all the dos and don'ts in mind. It's articifial, and I guess artificiality is pretty much a hallmark of snobbism.


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## Very Senior Member (Jul 16, 2009)

Each of us has virtually a unique set of tolerances (like fingerprinting) towards extraneous noises and the general behaviour of others at concerts. This is confirmed here in this thread and in several previous threads on exactly the same issue. 

As a general rule, however, most people are not completely indifferent to various noises one gets at concerts, and neither are they so hostile that it puts them of attending concerts altogether. I would place myself very much towards the latter end of this spectrum, in that I generally dislike most noises and inappropriate behaviour such as clapping at the wrong times. 

I don't like large crowds of strangers. It's bad enough having to put up with them in travel situations (crowded transport systems, holiday beeches, busy cafes etc) but it's far worse when you want peace and quiet to listen to music but get interrupted all around you by one kind of unwelcome behaviour or other. It doesn't always happen but there's a big risk that it might. 

For this reason I've largely given up attending concerts. There are too many potential ignoramuses, noise merchants, and other varieties of scum-bag to have to contend with, especially at rock concerts, to make the risk worthwhile, given the usually high costs of concert tickets/travel etc.


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## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

I know people who feel the classical music is on a different higher plane - but just don't listen to it. When they hear it they say it's beautiful. But it just does not do anything for them.

Nigel Kennedy changed nothing.


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## superhorn (Mar 23, 2010)

Orchestra concerts are a completely different experience from Rock or pop concerts ; I'm not saying this in a snobbish way , just describing them. Rock music is amplified and constantly oud, and it's okay for audiences ot be loud and boisterous . 
But with classical concerts , the music is not amplified (except maybe for outdoors concerts), and there is a wide variety of dynamics ranging from very soft to very loud . When you go to the movies, you don't want people around you making noise and distracting you while you're trying to watch the movie; it's just the same when you go to hear the New York Philharmonic or nay other orchestra perform .
And nobody worries about "stuffiness and snobbishness" at the movies. Why should it be any different with orchestra concerts .


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## BurningDesire (Jul 15, 2012)

Andreas said:


> Thinking of it, the atmosphere at a concert is kind of sterile. Everything happens according to protocol. Take a seat, keep your mouth shut, wait for the end of the piece, then appaude, the conductor takes his bows, leaves, comes back, several times, then the flower girl hands him his bouquet, applaude some more, then get your coat and go home. It's almost as if the applause is part of the performance.
> 
> It's fascinating to read accounts of concerts from the 19th century. People would jeer or whistle if they didn't like the piece, or simply leave in mid-performance, and at the end they'd either cheer or boo or anything in between. I couldn't imagine booing after a performance, even if I hated it. Does it ever happen anymore? At the opera perhaps? I don't think it would hurt.
> 
> I could well imagine that people are turned off by this stiff and choreographed interaction between classical music performers and audiences. It probably seems like you go visit the Queen of England, all dressed up and with all the dos and don'ts in mind. It's articifial, and I guess artificiality is pretty much a hallmark of snobbism.


I don't agree with all the protocol, such as having to dress fancy, so I usually don't unless I feel like it :3 To me, its just about having fun and enjoying the art of performance while also having respect for the performer and the other people listening. Its like talking during a movie to me.

I can't imagine booing even an awful performer. As a performer myself, I understand the difficulty of doing it very well, and I think any performer deserves respect and dignity whilst they perform, no matter whether you like the performance or not. The only situation I can imagine where disrespect is earned is in some bizarre situation where the performer is being a jerk to that audience or something.


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## Sonata (Aug 7, 2010)

neoshredder said:


> As long as I don't have to learn to like todays music. (Bieber, Gaga, Spears, Aguilera, and all that junk)


But even that is only SOME of today's music. That's music of pop, not representative of all music of today.


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## Eschbeg (Jul 25, 2012)

BurningDesire said:


> I don't agree with all the protocol, such as having to dress fancy


The dress code seems to me to be a vestige of the days when classical music really _was_ snobby and the primary point of attending the opera was to see and be seen, and only secondarily to enjoy the music. I attend concerts in casual dress all the time, and I'm comfortably certain I'm appreciating the music more than the ladies in pearls fast asleep in the first row.


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## Turangalîla (Jan 29, 2012)

neoshredder said:


> I would say the old people tend to like the Late Romantic Era. I know that's a stereotype but it just seems like those long symphonies would suit them. But 20th Century Classical Music might be too dissonant for them. Especially Ligeti.  Ligeti is for the cool and non-conservative types.


I would agree. My grandmother _adores_ Tchaikovsky, and my father, when it comes to classical, will only touch Chopin. Brahms and Schumann would bore them. I was once at a concert with my grandmother and they played a Bartok string quartet. She covered her ears the whole time . 20th century avante-garde is certainly more popular with the classical music audience under 50.


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## Turangalîla (Jan 29, 2012)

BurningDesire said:


> Thats why you politely inform the audience where they should applaud. I usually don't glare at somebody clapping at the end of movements, but I tend to when they clap during a segue or at a false climax or a silence, like they're just waiting for the piece to be over so they can leave. Maybe thats not the case, but when you hear clapping half a second into a silence, it really seems like somebody is at the concert as a chore, and I have no sympathy for them ruining a performance.


If the audience applauds in the middle of my performance where they're not supposed to, I just smile, especially if they are less familiar with classical music. At one concert, when I was giving some background information on a Beethoven sonata, I told them that it was appropriate to hold their applause till the end of the third movement. It was not a large concert, so I was perfectly comfortable with doing this. It may have been unusual, but I was later thanked for having told them that as the common audience has no idea when to clap.


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## Turangalîla (Jan 29, 2012)

Also, I have been called a snob several times, but I am alright with that, because I _do_ think that classical music is superior to rock, pop, etc. I don't go around telling people that's what I think, because it will turn them off; I will only say that if I am asked. My problem with heavy metal, country, pop, etc is that it's not intellectual. I could easily write a nice song using the I, IV, and V chords, a decent melody, and a pleasant drum beat.
Now, don't get me wrong, there _are_ popular songs out there that are well-written and are innovative harmonically, melodically, or rhythmically. I have more respect for a song if it actually takes a little bit of genius and/or hard work to write.
That is why I don't mind listening to jazz. I am certainly _not_ a jazz improviser, but I have great respect for its rhythm and harmony, harmonies that are often more complex than those of classical music.


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## Klavierspieler (Jul 16, 2011)

CarterJohnsonPiano said:


> Also, I have been called a snob several times, but I am alright with that, because I _do_ think that classical music is superior to rock, pop, etc. I don't go around telling people that's what I think, because it will turn them off; I will only say that if I am asked. My problem with *heavy metal*, country, pop, etc is that it's not intellectual. I could easily write a nice song using the I, IV, and V chords, a decent melody, and a pleasant drum beat.
> Now, don't get me wrong, there _are_ popular songs out there that are well-written and are innovative harmonically, melodically, or rhythmically. I have more respect for a song if it actually takes a little bit of genius and/or hard work to write.
> That is why I don't mind listening to jazz. I am certainly _not_ a jazz improviser, but I have great respect for its rhythm and harmony, harmonies that are often more complex than those of classical music.


Careful what you say about this genre, from what I've heard it can be quite complex harmonically.


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## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

The worst I have ever seen from an ignorant audience is a concert perf of mozarts's zauberflote overture - at the bits where the triples brass motif is sounded out three times - the bloody idiots burst into applause at the end of each blast - thinking it was the end of the overture - then - having been ticked off with a shake of the conductors head - there was silence at the end until i got the applause going with a brisk firm hand clap.
I hate applause coming in before the final note of an opera has played out - especially Mozart! Someone once made a recording for me of don giovanni at covent garden - very nice - but he pressed stop on his video rec on the last note of the first act - totally ruined it! He'd be one of the premature clappers, the tosser.


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## aleazk (Sep 30, 2011)

stomanek said:


> The worst I have ever seen from an ignorant audience is a concert perf of mozarts's zauberflote overture - at the bits where the triples brass motif is sounded out three times - the bloody idiots burst into applause at the end of each blast - thinking it was the end of the overture - then - having been ticked off with a shake of the conductors head - there was silence at the end until i got the applause going with a brisk firm hand clap.
> I hate applause coming in before the final note of an opera has played out - especially Mozart! Someone once made a recording for me of don giovanni at covent garden - very nice - but he pressed stop on his video rec on the last note of the first act - totally ruined it! He'd be one of the premature clappers, the tosser.


yeah, I think that for certain pieces, the silence between the last note and the applause has a very nice effect of, say, 'forcefulness' of the piece.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

Andreas said:


> Thinking of it, the atmosphere at a concert is kind of sterile. Everything happens according to protocol. Take a seat, keep your mouth shut, wait for the end of the piece, then appaude, the conductor takes his bows, leaves, comes back, several times, then the flower girl hands him his bouquet, applaude some more, then get your coat and go home. It's almost as if the applause is part of the performance.
> 
> It's fascinating to read accounts of concerts from the 19th century. People would jeer or whistle if they didn't like the piece, or simply leave in mid-performance, and at the end they'd either cheer or boo or anything in between. I couldn't imagine booing after a performance, even if I hated it. Does it ever happen anymore? At the opera perhaps? I don't think it would hurt.
> 
> I could well imagine that people are turned off by this stiff and choreographed interaction between classical music performers and audiences. It probably seems like you go visit the Queen of England, all dressed up and with all the dos and don'ts in mind. It's articifial, and I guess artificiality is pretty much a hallmark of snobbism.


Well I think that there is that element of less interaction between the audience and performer in classical music. The audience is virtually 'just' an audience, its a one way street. Compare this to jazz, where when a member of the band does a big solo (often they take turns during the one piece), there is clapping during the piece. Same thing, I'd think, in rock.

Then there were performers who were not that great in terms of their voice, or not as 'great' as others (eg. not as big a vocal range), but they had charisma and could 'connect' with virtually any audience in any hall they performed. Such was Frank Sinatra and Maurice Chevalier. Louis Armstrong as well, though his voice was not 'less great,' just unique, different, quirky, and of course he was a superb trumpeter. All these guys were probably dismissed as cheap showmen (I know Armstrong was, and he was even called by some an 'Uncle Tom' for being too entertaining and gregarious during his gigs). But I think communication is a big part of music, and spontaneity, so they had the goods (and then some) in that department.

In terms of classical, in China I understand they often clap between movements. During the era of Chairman Mao, Western classical music was banned as it was said to be against Communist doctrine. Since Mao's death in the 1970's, there has been a kind of 'Renaissance' of classical music in China. When Australian orchestras go there, they tell us back home about how they have never been greeted with such exhuberance and outright passion, enthusiasm. So, having missed out on classical music for a large part of the post-1945 period, the Chinese are now soaking it up. They care about the music, not the conventions of when to clap or not, which I see as a matter of detail more than anything.

So too, here in a concert of the Australian Youth Orchestra a few years back, playing Shostakovich's 10th symphony at the end of the night under Sir Mark Elder, there was clapping between each movement. I was not exactly happy about this but since I've thought about it more deeply. Many of those people would have been at their first classical concert that night. The tickets where sold at a flat rate, about $20 each, regardless of where you sat (If my memory is correct, in any case, the tickets where not expensive). There were families there and young couples. So I thought that its good to get these people to listen to music like this, which is not mickey mouse music, its the real deal. The first half had Brett Dean, an Australian composer, and a Mahler song cycle. The only thing was people took photos with flash using their phones when Sir Mark talked to the audience, and he told them politely to stop that, but obviously they didn't know. Their previous experience would have been rock concerts only, most likely.

The other thing is, that the thing Sir Mark did - address, talk to the audience - is becoming more common here now. & I think we can in some ways 'thank' the likes of Frank Sinatra, who really made that a part of his shows. So too others still living like Andre Rieu, the light classical musician.

These are the things that came to my mind as I read your post, Andreas, as well as those of others on this thread.


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## Toddlertoddy (Sep 17, 2011)

CarterJohnsonPiano said:


> I could easily write a nice song using the I, IV, and V chords, a decent melody, and a pleasant drum beat.
> 
> Now, don't get me wrong, there _are_ popular songs out there that are well-written and are innovative harmonically, melodically, or rhythmically.


But pop and hip-hop (incl. rap) is not about the music harmonies, progressions, rhythms, and other jargon; it's about the words. Teenagers on Facebook don't post I - IV - bIII+6 - vi7 or whatever, they post lyrics. But then there's legitimate inferior music when the music is mundane (two notes for the bass player), and the lyrics are cliche (sex, clubs, women's asses, etc.) and repetitive.

Just it's not "intellectual" doesn't mean it's not profound verbally. Satirical songs are awesome, this is not.


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## Toddlertoddy (Sep 17, 2011)

Toddlertoddy said:


> But pop and hip-hop (incl. rap) is not about the music harmonies, progressions, rhythms, and other jargon; it's about the words. Teenagers on Facebook don't post I - IV - bIII+6 - vi7 or whatever, they post lyrics. But then there's legitimate inferior music when the music is mundane (two notes for the bass player), and the lyrics are cliche (sex, clubs, women's asses, etc.) and repetitive.
> 
> Just it's not "intellectual" doesn't mean it's not profound verbally. Satirical songs are awesome, this is not.


Side note: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Native_American_hip_hop


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## beetzart (Dec 30, 2009)

stomanek said:


> I know people who feel the classical music is on a different higher plane - but just don't listen to it. When they hear it they say it's beautiful. But it just does not do anything for them.
> 
> Nigel Kennedy changed nothing.


I saw Kennedy live when I was 13 at the Leas Cliff Hall, Folkestone. He was quite remarkable and did a beautiful encore by Bach, can't remember what though. Classical was quite 'in' at the time, around 1989/90, when Kennedy brought out his Four Seasons CD. I always remember my mum being enchanted by the 1st movement of Winter, you know the main theme that explodes into life after the tense build up. It seemed to hypnotise her. She is funny like that my mum is. She is indifferent to pieces I adore yet is captivated by obscure little numbers like Romance of a Gadfly by Shostakovich.


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## Turangalîla (Jan 29, 2012)

Klavierspieler said:


> Careful what you say about this genre, from what I've heard it can be quite complex harmonically.


Was that sarcastic??? Because, if it was, it was very funny :lol:


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## BurningDesire (Jul 15, 2012)

CarterJohnsonPiano said:


> Also, I have been called a snob several times, but I am alright with that, because I _do_ think that classical music is superior to rock, pop, etc. I don't go around telling people that's what I think, because it will turn them off; I will only say that if I am asked. My problem with heavy metal, country, pop, etc is that it's not intellectual. I could easily write a nice song using the I, IV, and V chords, a decent melody, and a pleasant drum beat.
> Now, don't get me wrong, there _are_ popular songs out there that are well-written and are innovative harmonically, melodically, or rhythmically. I have more respect for a song if it actually takes a little bit of genius and/or hard work to write.
> That is why I don't mind listening to jazz. I am certainly _not_ a jazz improviser, but I have great respect for its rhythm and harmony, harmonies that are often more complex than those of classical music.


wow, you are a snob


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## Ramako (Apr 28, 2012)

Today, if you don't say all genres are equal, you are called a snob.


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## violadude (May 2, 2011)

I think people that say I don't like the "music of today" and then give Justin Bieber and Britney Spears as examples of that music are being a bit unfair because those are commercial artists. They are meant to appeal to the lowest common denominator in order to bring in the maximum amount of revenue for the record companies.

The non-classical musicians these days that are not as commercialized usually have much more in common with the experimental and intellectual nature of classical music than the highly commercialized versions within the same general genre.

For example, this record by the band Volcano the Bear just came out in 2007 (not too long ago) and they experiment with non-traditional scales and microtones in a way that can easily be compared to 20th/21st century classical.


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## BurningDesire (Jul 15, 2012)

Ramako said:


> Today, if you don't say all genres are equal, you are called a snob.


And rightly so. I won't even go into how genre is a silly way of thinking about music, but any style of music, any compositional technique or discipline can produce brilliant music. Whether its improvising at a piano or working in heavily calculated serial technique or penning a love song or composing a classical style symphony, or even organizing samples of other recorded music and improvising text in a sprechstimme style over it, there's nothing inherently bad about any of those ways of making music, and they can all produce amazing things.


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## Ralfy (Jul 19, 2010)

When I look at this issue from the perspective of money (i.e., elite implies financial and material power), then I can see things the other way round. That is, it is pop music that's part of the elite, as recording companies make billions of dollars from it and it dominates the market. Classical music, on the other hand, is the opposite, as it struggles to stay alive together with jazz, world music, and other types of recordings.


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## beetzart (Dec 30, 2009)

Can I be honest here? I have found, in my experience, that people who like classical music are really interesting people all round. Plus they/we have a longer attention span. If not we wouldn't be able to listen to long symphonies, etc. I do like rock music and it is good sometimes to get a 3-4 minute hit from decent tracks, but they don't quite meet the demands required for absorbing long classical works. I am, though,drawn to rock that has strong classical influences (or seem to) like, The Divine Comedy, Beach Boys, The Beatles, Radiohead maybe, oh and Muse.


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## GraemeG (Jun 30, 2009)

BurningDesire said:


> And rightly so. I won't even go into how genre is a silly way of thinking about music, but any style of music, any compositional technique or discipline can produce brilliant music. Whether its improvising at a piano or working in heavily calculated serial technique or penning a love song or composing a classical style symphony, or even organizing samples of other recorded music and improvising text in a sprechstimme style over it, there's nothing inherently bad about any of those ways of making music, and they can all produce amazing things.


Just because a genre produces "brilliant music" (in your words) is not the same as saying all genres are equal. The 'classical genre' pretty much encompasses everything from Chopin's Minute Waltz to Mahler 2; so that's pretty broad. Whereas 'pop' music is almost inevitably a 3 minute song. So perhaps it is pointless to compare 'genres' so evidently unequal.
There are a few pop songs that might reasonably stand comparison to the songs of Schubert. But the best of the genre pales utterly beside the B minor symphony...
GG


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## Crudblud (Dec 29, 2011)

All genres are equal, some just have a hard time with their representatives.


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## HarpsichordConcerto (Jan 1, 2010)

All composers are equal, but some are more equal than others.


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

HarpsichordConcerto said:


> All composers are equal, but some are more equal than others.


I feel an uprising in the lower class. The neglected composers will overthrow the overly performed composers that dominate today's classical society.

Well, maybe not so much overthrow, just be equal to them.


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## Eschbeg (Jul 25, 2012)

HarpsichordConcerto said:


> All composers are equal, but some are more equal than others.


Then again, being the equal of someone else is just about the last thing a composer or artist wants to be, which is why I've always been partial to the unequal ones.


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## Turangalîla (Jan 29, 2012)

HarpsichordConcerto said:


> All composers are equal, but some are more equal than others.


_Animal Farm_ allusion??


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## BurningDesire (Jul 15, 2012)

HarpsichordConcerto said:


> All composers are equal, but some are more equal than others.


Poor Shostakovich :'(


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

The trouble about a lot of the 3 minute songs I hear (courtesy of my 17 year old daughter), is that I wish they'd be done after 1 minute. I often like it for a bit and then it gets repetitive.

And yet I can sit through a twelve minute Handel da capo aria without any trouble.


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## BurningDesire (Jul 15, 2012)

mamascarlatti said:


> The trouble about a lot of the 3 minute songs I hear (courtesy of my 17 year old daughter), is that I wish they'd be done after 1 minute. I often like it for a bit and then it gets repetitive.
> 
> And yet I can sit through a twelve minute Handel da capo aria without any trouble.


I came from the world of rock and pop music first, though I had listened to instrumental and classical music that I liked before I really got into it, so for me it was the opposite, of learning to be able to enjoy longer, more drawn out ideas. I think if you hear more of those tunes that you like, you may grow to enjoy the repetition ^^ What do you think of stuff like Reich and Glass? :3 One way that I've wound up liking things I didn't at first is that I find works inbetween what I like already and those that I didn't immediately get. Perhaps you could find pop/rock/hip hop tunes with complex structures and harmonies (they do exist, I promise), as well as classical music which is more repetitive and structured in a formulaic way (minimalism and classical and some baroque music) and that may show you things that you like in those pop songs your daughter listens to


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