# The Secrets to the Other Gender Thread



## Huilunsoittaja (Apr 6, 2010)

I felt inspired to start this. I know this site is mostly males, but that can make for interesting conversation anyway. The purpose isn't so much as to be a thread to convince the other gender why they get something wrong, but to simply state their values, their perspective on life, and so forth.

To start this off, here's the first one. So much for women being a "mystery" and you can never figure out what they want, or if you can, satisfy them. The TRUTH:
Most women are insecure (insecurity escapes no one completely anyway). The woman's greatest value is being _wanted_. Wanted for their advice, wanted for their support, wanted for their beauty. I mystify myself why I even agree with this about myself :lol: I just do. And if they feel like this isn't happening, that they're _not _being wanted, they go desperate, which is exhibited in a variety of ways. They may become over-controlling and critical, or become doormat-like and compliant. They will become vicious and ruthless, or spineless and subservient, until they get what they want.

Here's my added sincere curiosity. I find men more perplexing than women.


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## ZombieBeethoven (Jan 17, 2012)

I will let you in on a secret about men, Huilunsottaja. Most of us are just not that complex. When my wife asks me what I am thinking about, I have to invent something interesting. In reality, I was probably thinking "I'm hungry," "Sex, sex, sex," "A beer would be good," "Homer Simpson sure has it good," "I wonder if I can teach my dachhunds to bring a beer to me while I am lying in the hammock," or "Time for a nap."


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## Kopachris (May 31, 2010)

Don't listen to ZombieBeethoven, Huilunsoittaja--we men really are that complex!  Okay, maybe not _that_ complex, but we _do_ think about more than just "I want a beer and I want to see something naked."

I do think that desire to be wanted isn't just a feminine desire, but something in everyone. We each just act differently when we feel we're not wanted. Men don't tend to get desperate, but do tend to blame everyone else by becoming antisocial or aggressive when we feel we're not wanted.


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## StlukesguildOhio (Dec 25, 2006)




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## ZombieBeethoven (Jan 17, 2012)

Well, Kopachris is the exception that proves the rule. I certainly would not want to argue with the little fellow in the tuxedo. Otherwise, we just ain't that bright. I work with a lot of single women. During conversations they have been known to ask me "what do men want?" or sometimes even ask advice about finding a good man. I usually ask them why on Earth would they want a man? All you are going to hear is "Can you get me a beer?" "Who stole my underwear?" or "Marge! I've been watching women's volleyball..."


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## Moira (Apr 1, 2012)

Men have wives because there are some things one cannot blame on the government.

I have a lot of gay men as friends. It is an interesting look into the mind of men. They CONSTANTLY look at 'prime specimens' and comment on them. Women 'know' that their male partners are constantly looking at other 'prime specimens', but have learned not to comment.


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## violadude (May 2, 2011)

I'm no help here. I cry a lot, think too much, am quite un-confident at times. Everything a "real" man is not supposed to be.


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## Kopachris (May 31, 2010)

violadude said:


> I'm no help here. I cry a lot, think too much, am quite un-confident at times. Everything a "real" man is not supposed to be.


You have a 'Y' chromosome, don't you? Then you're really a man, and damn anyone who thinks otherwise. Maybe those inconsiderate jerks should take a biology class.


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## Moira (Apr 1, 2012)

violadude said:


> I'm no help here. I cry a lot, think too much, am quite un-confident at times. Everything a "real" man is not supposed to be.


Men are not supposed to think?

Confidence is often a cloak people wear, rather than an ingrained attitude. Often the people who have most about which to be confident are the ones who are least confident. It takes real ignorance, sometimes, to be confident. 

'Real' men are the ones who have the courage to be who they are. If you find out who you are and show the world that while you are young, you are bound to be ... well, something.


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## Badinerie (May 3, 2008)

I keep promising myself that I'll start thinking more, once I've learned how to stop just "reacting" to everything.
I don't understand most people men or woman anyway,especially people want to "fully understand" their partners then complain that there's no "Mystery" left in their relationships.


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## Xaltotun (Sep 3, 2010)

Since women are much more social creatures than men (to men, being "social" often amounts to claiming a place in a hierarchy), women often feel mystified about what a certain man "meant" when he did or said something, or left something undone or unsaid. Quite often, the answer amounts to... "nothing". He just didn't think of the implications; he wasn't trying to send a message. 


I don't mean that men are stupid, just that in this aspect we are often much less refined than women.


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

violadude said:


> I'm no help here. I cry a lot, think too much, am quite un-confident at times. Everything a "real" man is not supposed to be.


Really? Poor you. Let me give you a manly hug.


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

"Real men" are the males that came with all the right parts properly in place.


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## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

I admit it, I've forgotten most of the stuff that whippersnappers obsess about.


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## Moira (Apr 1, 2012)

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> "Real men" are the males that came with all the right parts properly in place.


I think the topic of discussion goes beyond the biological male thing, and into the character of the kind of men who are admirable.

In my late twenties I worked in an office where most of the young women were getting married. Having been married I wasn't in too much of a hurry to make another mistake, but in the process I picked up some flak from the other girls in the office. In the end I shut them up by saying I would settle for anyone, so long as he was kind. It seemed they didn't know any 'kind' men to try to match make us, so it simply became an office joke. Several years later, some time after my father's death, I was chatting to my aunt when she said that of her brothers she always preferred my father to her other brother. I nodded and said, "Yes, he was kind." All sorts of lights came on in my head at that moment. I was looking for a man who was like my father. There was no malice, no spite, no need for getting even, no need for revenge, no cruelty, no vindictiveness or viciousness in him at all. He went out of his way to be gentle, to say tactful things that were also the truth and to keep silent when there was nothing nice to be said. He had a LOT of faults, so I'm not simply making this up out of blind loyalty to a loved parent. It is difficult not to admire a kind man for that kindness.

There are many other attributes which go to making up the ideal person, man or woman (for the purposes of this thread), but kindness is not one that is usually associated positively with manliness, but for me it is an essential quality and I associate it with men, mainly, I suppose, because my mother wasn't a kind person in the way that my father was.


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## Huilunsoittaja (Apr 6, 2010)

Back to a thought that came up before, about complexity between men and women, I have a question about that.

When I was learning about 1800s world history some years ago, I was shocked to find out a few things. For one thing, women during the Victorian era were considered to have _no _emotions. Men were considered the more "complex" because they thought about higher-level topics, and also had true emotions. Women were viewed as simple-minded. Thus, women had weird things happen to them, for ex. teenagers would get secluded away from society, when their hormones were just getting out of control. "No socializing for you!" I think my history teacher had said it would lead some of those girls to insanity, or "hysteria" as it may have been called.

Now I wonder, how did this happen? Why did people believe that, more so, why do we believe the exact opposite today? What changed?


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

Women are naturally neurotic. They despise "smooth sailing" but crave "drama". It is this creation and tearful resolution of drama that sustains their existence. When you understand this, you know the only solution is stoicism. Let them bounce off their girlfriends to fulfill these sociopathic urges. The refreshing drinks of water that are the rare exceptional women prove the rule.


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## regressivetransphobe (May 16, 2011)

Gender is the most boring thing in the world. I hate everyone, go die


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## Klavierspieler (Jul 16, 2011)

Couchie said:


> Women are naturally neurotic. They despise "smooth sailing" but crave "drama". It is this creation and tearful resolution of drama that sustains their existence. When you understand this, you know the only solution is stoicism. Let them bounce off their girlfriends to fulfill these sociopathic urges. The refreshing drinks of water that are the rare exceptional women prove the rule.


They also have an irresistible attraction to bonfires...


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## Huilunsoittaja (Apr 6, 2010)

Couchie said:


> The refreshing drinks of water that are the rare exceptional women prove the rule.


I'm type B personality, do I count?


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## Praeludium (Oct 9, 2011)

I don't understand women. But I don't understand men either, so I guess it's fine.

edit : But I guess I still understand men a little better. There are two things that really bothered me about the only woman I've been with ;

1) Watching film for girls. Don't make your boyfriend watch them. So annoying.
2) Falling asleep after 20 minutes and ask to stop the film and go to bed when you wake up (usually at the middle of the film)


Oh, and the whole thing about "do you think I've gained weight ?" thing. One day, I answered that yes, maybe a bit (like the weight you can gain and lose in one week depending what you eat), but that there was absolutely nothing wrong with it. I thought that an honest answer would be good. But anyway I think that if I had answered no she would have thought I lied. If you ask a question someone, whatever the gender, who isn't used to using hints and hypocrisy all the time, expect what he/she thinks. And it's a quality.




Violadude, let's make a club. I don't cry a lot (apart from watching films or documentary about children's work or such) but my girlfriend considered me "not a real man", and I must say that I've ever been pretty bored with those expectations of "what a man should be".


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## aleazk (Sep 30, 2011)

violadude, is relative. Do you cry because of the injustice in the world?. That's fine, you are a _moral man_ in that case. Now, if you cry because the colour of your new socks don't combine with your favorite shoes... :lol:


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## violadude (May 2, 2011)

aleazk said:


> violadude, is relative. Do you cry because of the injustice in the world?. That's fine, you are a _moral man_ in that case. Now, if you cry because the colour of your new socks don't combine with your favorite shoes... :lol:


Hahaha socks...

No I cry mostly because of music, and movies....and Korean Dramas 

And also because of personal issues.


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

violadude said:


> Hahaha socks...
> 
> No I cry mostly because of music, and movies....and Korean Dramas
> 
> And also because of personal issues.


Same here, but I've never seen a Korean drama.

I also have quite a few irrational fears


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## Huilunsoittaja (Apr 6, 2010)

Sometimes I like the fact that I'm a girl and can cry and not really be judged. Although, I still don't like to cry in public, and avoid it at all costs. If I want to cry about something, I literally _wait _for an opportune time, just keeping my thought in the back of my head.

On another topic.
Of all the qualities of men can have, one of my most hated is the dispassionate man. The man that says, "whatever, I don't care" when asked their opinions or desires. I prefer a man that is bold to say, "This is what I want" and "this is what I will do" and so forth. Especially about the important decisions like what your major and/or career will be. And perhaps even more important, who they want to have a relationship with.


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

I like to cry and I see no shame in crying (apart from crying in front of some specific people). I jus try not to cry in public because I don't really want to attract attention.


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## brianwalker (Dec 9, 2011)

A consequence of being a man is that it's your burden to energize and direct conversations with girls. A girl who is on the fence about you will offer little in the way of chatty tokens to cash in for new topics of interest. Even a girl who is interested will hardly put in equal effort at sustaining a conversation beyond the meagerest bounds of politesse. It is simply not in the nature of girls to direct and lead conversations along fruitful paths. As with sex, girls prefer to follow a strong conversational leader, and to ricochet joyously off a charismatic man's titillating badinage.

And this is one of the great blind spots that dog the typical man engaged in flirty talk: he doesn't know when enough is enough.

Women (normal women, that is; not nerdgirls who make up the majority of their gender who read blogs not having to do with celebrity gossip or food) do not like to revisit conversational topics, to hammer them into submission, to delve into them with an analytical scalpel. Women instead (and particularly in the company of men who aspire to be their lovers) want to careen from one subject to another, getting their emotional fill in superficial bursts of topical teasers. This way, they are entertained without risking social embarrassment from uncouth scrutiny. And they can afford to be thus so entertained and carelessly unenlightened, blessed as they are by providence with the more valuable reproductive cargo.

Men evince, like so many other sex differences seemingly the genesis of some creator prankster, a preference for just the opposite. We prefer to examine a topic until its entrails have been spooled out on the ground before us, poked and prodded with mental instruments of logical brutality, until revelation or argument victory, whichever comes first, descend upon the listening attendees like trumpet blares. Men will, given free rein, exhaust a topic to death, for to leave a theme unresolved is akin to walking off the baseball diamond in the bottom of the ninth with the score tied, happy that no one goes home a loser. A clear WTF moment if you sport a couple of dangling stones.

Unfortunately for the needs of the manhood, this manly urge to disembowel a conversational topic is kryptonite to picking up women. To a woman's mind, it reeks of social clumsiness at best, aspie retardation at worst. And since it is primarily women's minds, and not their eyes, to which men must appeal, the "beating a topic to death" syndrome is one that must be recognized with haste and banished with malice aforethought.

To put it in algorithmic form easily understood by the core audience:

*Bad Flirting
*
YOU: Topic A

HER: HAHA!, slight twist on Topic A

YOU: Resurgent Topic A

HER: ha…, slipping interest in Topic A

YOU: Topic A again, nervously, this time with feeling

HER: cya

*Good Flirting
*
YOU: Topic A

HER: HAHA!, slight twist on Topic A

YOU: Opportunistic springboarding from twisted Topic A into Topic B

HER: Double HAHA!, pleasant surprise at introduction of Topic B

YOU: JOKE

HER: further positive reaction

Revisiting topics that initially garnered a positive response from a girl is try-hard approval seeking. It is the clarion call of the beta who can't believe his luck that he said something interesting to a girl, and now feels the overarching need to suck the life out of it in endless sequels. Don't be that beta. You lead a woman in talk as you would in dance, your nimble tongue the strong hand that gently but firmly guides her into new adventures.


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## Huilunsoittaja (Apr 6, 2010)

A theoretical conversation I have sometimes

Me: Topic 1
Guy: Question about Topic 1
Me: Snide Comment about question
Guy: Worked up
Me: Laughs and answers
Guy: Snide, occasionally elaborate comment on answer
Me: Laughs even harder
Guy: Laughs with me

And that is very Good day


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## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

Huilunsoittaja said:


> A theoretical conversation I have sometimes
> 
> Me: Topic 1
> Guy: Question about Topic 1
> ...


_Way_ too much laughing. Life is serious.


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

Better discussion:

Me: Topic 1
Female type humanoid: serious comment on topic 1
Me: serious question on her opinion
Female type humanoid: reply to question
Me: serious comment on reply
Female type humanoid: serious segue to topic 2

Etc.


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## Tero (Jun 2, 2012)

Xaltotun said:


> Since women are much more social creatures than men (to men, being "social" often amounts to claiming a place in a hierarchy), women often feel mystified about what a certain man "meant" when he did or said something, or left something undone or unsaid. Quite often, the answer amounts to... "nothing". He just didn't think of the implications; he wasn't trying to send a message.
> 
> I don't mean that men are stupid, just that in this aspect we are often much less refined than women.


I never thought that way. I thought men were comfortable with a beer and a sandwich. Women need to chat while they eat.


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## Praeludium (Oct 9, 2011)

Huilunsoittaja said:


> [...]
> On another topic.
> Of all the qualities of men can have, one of my most hated is the dispassionate man. The man that says, "whatever, I don't care" when asked their opinions or desires. I prefer a man that is bold to say, "This is what I want" and "this is what I will do" and so forth. Especially about the important decisions like what your major and/or career will be. And perhaps even more important, who they want to have a relationship with.


In some cases persons can appear as dispassionate, but it doesn't necessarily mean they don't have an opinion on anything. They might be too shy to say it, they might actually have too bold or ambitious ideas to expose them without feeling stupid, they're maybe afraid of talking a lot without doing much. 
In the case of choosing a partner I can understand though...

I'm saying this because I think I'm the kind of person seen as dispassionate. I'm not dispassionate at all, but I (try to) restrain them - I have a lot of admiration for the skepticism, the stoicism, Descartes, etc. and that's also how I have ever been IRL. To put it simply I like to see the things from a bit of distance, which does not necessarily mean I'm weak-minded, don't care about anything, etc.

Also, I use a lot the "I don't care" for little banal things and consider it as a quality. I use a lot what we call "plouf-plouf" in France and what you call "eeny, meeny, miney, moe" in English in order to decide what I'll eat/do next/where I'll go, etc.


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## Roberto (Jul 17, 2010)

Men and women are alike in this: that they are both equally proud. Neither sex likes to be rejected, or put down; both want power and satisfaction and money. 

Men want more sex; women more commitment. Men want more food and drink; women more kind words. Men need to feel important in their work; not all women do. 

Men like to theorise; women like things that work. 

But this is the greatest difference - men need women to be attractive; women need men to be resourceful. Men are easily aroused - they are simply flammable - but women are complex and changeable chemical compounds.


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## Huilunsoittaja (Apr 6, 2010)

Roberto said:


> women more kind words.


Amen!

[The message you have entered is too short. Please lengthen your message to at least 10 characters.]


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## Praeludium (Oct 9, 2011)

Roberto said:


> [...]
> Men want more sex; women more commitment.
> [...]


Is it really true ? 
I'm under the impression this comes from some social and religious rules deeply ingrained in our civilization (which [these "rules" begin to fall apart but anyway]. 
I mean, in the XXth century there were still physicians and scientists who believed there was no female orgasm or ejaculation...

But let's not start a forbidden discussion on this forum. I just meant : is it biologically true ?


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## Chrythes (Oct 13, 2011)

Praeludium said:


> Is it really true ?
> I'm under the impression this comes from some social and religious rules deeply ingrained in our civilization (which [these "rules" begin to fall apart but anyway].
> I mean, in the XXth century there were still physicians and scientists who believed there was no female orgasm or ejaculation...
> 
> But let's not start a forbidden discussion on this forum. I just meant : is it biologically true ?


Well, the purpose of sex is to pass your genes, so at least in the early human societies I'd guess that sex was used solely for this purpose.

Women wanting commitment rather than sex makes sense, since bearing a child is in itself a very hard, exhausting process, especially if the male leaves you after doing his thing. Commitment also means that the woman won't have to raise her child alone.

From the male perspective - wanting only sex but not commitment is really a sign of a tournament species, where physically dominant males impregnate as many women as they can. But we are not that species, at least not entirely, since we create families. And one of the reasons for that is that during the times of the early hominid societies lower ranking males that weren't able to compete with the physically superior alpha males started supplying females with provisions - "food for mating". Females accepted this (probably because the male showed the he's able to provide for her and his children) and families began to arise.

So biologically his assumption makes sense.


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## Tero (Jun 2, 2012)

There are societies where women run things. But in Western culture men took over once they had technology.

In primitive times, women had power through husbands and sons. Thus the emphasis on commitment.


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## ZombieBeethoven (Jan 17, 2012)

Deadly, Wagnerian serious.

Thank God for beer.


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## Roberto (Jul 17, 2010)

ZombieBeethoven said:


> Deadly, Wagnerian serious


Wagner would have found it ludicrously worldly - nobody has mentioned myths or gods yet


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## Meaghan (Jul 31, 2010)

Praeludium said:


> Is it really true ?
> I'm under the impression this comes from some social and religious rules deeply ingrained in our civilization (which [these "rules" begin to fall apart but anyway].
> I mean, in the XXth century there were still physicians and scientists who believed there was no female orgasm or ejaculation...
> 
> But let's not start a forbidden discussion on this forum. I just meant : is it biologically true ?


It is almost, if not completely, impossible to determine conclusively to what extent gender differences are innate and to what extent they are socially/culturally conditioned. From all I've read, it seems that nothing is strictly nature _or_ nurture, but that folks have historically overstated the influence of biology on gender difference. Culture plays a role that didn't really get acknowledgement until the fairly recent past. This is why I usually try not to essentialize, oversimplify, or speak in lots of binaries like "men are this way while women are this other way" (though I still do it sometimes). It can be a useful shortcut, but it's also kind of limiting.


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## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

Meaghan said:


> It is almost, if not completely, impossible to determine conclusively to what extent gender differences are innate and to what extent they are socially/culturally conditioned. From all I've read, it seems that nothing is strictly nature _or_ nurture, but that folks have historically overstated the influence of biology on gender difference. Culture plays a role that didn't really get acknowledgement until the fairly recent past. This is why I usually try not to essentialize, oversimplify, or speak in lots of binaries like "men are this way while women are this other way" (though I still do it sometimes). It can be a useful shortcut, but it's also kind of limiting.


There are still a few 'primitive' - 'stone age' type - societies that are used as evidence for hard-wiring of male-female roles. Unfortunately those societies have had umpteen or more generations in which to develop their customs. So we are really left with reason/logic/speculation. There have been several matriarchal societies, but I'm not convinced that any of them were primitive; that appellation has been abused frequently.

So, _Meaghan_, maybe it's mostly a matter of how good you think the guesses are.


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## Meaghan (Jul 31, 2010)

Hilltroll72 said:


> There are still a few 'primitive' - 'stone age' type - societies that are used as evidence for hard-wiring of male-female roles. Unfortunately those societies have had umpteen or more generations in which to develop their customs. *So we are really left with reason/logic/speculation.* There have been several matriarchal societies, but I'm not convinced that any of them were primitive; that appellation has been abused frequently.
> 
> So, _Meaghan_, maybe it's mostly a matter of how good you think the guesses are.


Yep. Doesn't help that the anthropologists aren't biologists and the biologists aren't anthropologists. Guess we'll just have to live with a degree of mystery, which I think I can do.


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## samurai (Apr 22, 2011)

I believe that with women--as well as men--it is more an emotional type of "hard wiring" rather than a physical one. Of course, the one may well influence the other, and there will *always be exceptions *vis a vis both genders.


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## violadude (May 2, 2011)

I swear, sometimes dating a woman is like trying to safely traverse a minefield! >.< I never understand why women make it like that. It's like they set up traps JUST so that they will trick us into saying things that will make them upset.

Not trying to be sexist or anything....


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## Roberto (Jul 17, 2010)

violadude said:


> I swear, sometimes dating a woman is like trying to safely traverse a minefield! >.< I never understand why women make it like that. It's like they set up traps JUST so that they will trick us into saying things that will make them upset.
> 
> Not trying to be sexist or anything....


They are just testing us - it's a game. They gain either way - if we pass through unsinged they are pleased and like us; if we fail they feel superior.


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