# Greatest Carmen ever



## mrogi (Jul 23, 2007)

Julia Migenes is the definitive Carmen. Nobody has ever portrayed Carmen with the raw sex appeal and hypnotic magic of Migenes. Her captivation of Placido Domingo was spellbinding.

Carmen


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## Guest (Jul 23, 2007)

I don’t like movies very much, even if the singers are pretty good. As for me, an opera is made to be sung on a stage. Do you know if there exists such a version of this opera, I mean : a filmed live performance ?


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## Morigan (Oct 16, 2006)

Of course there is!

As for opera movies, I think they're great but only if they're well done. Never buy the damn DG Carmen DVD. Bad pronunciation, bad lipsynching, horrible 60s hair and costumes (Frasquita and Mercedes in polka dots, wtf?).

However, most opera movies directed by Jean-Pierre Ponelle are simply wonderful and incredibly well done. The Così one is flawless in every regard.


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## Albert7 (Nov 16, 2014)

Any recommendations for the best Carmen on CD?


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

albertfallickwang said:


> Any recommendations for the best Carmen on CD?


Predictably I suppose, I still hold firm to the Callas recording (discredited Guiraud recitatives and all). My _detailed_ reasons for doing so are in my review in the Callas Remastered thread (post #319)

The link should take you to the correct page.

http://www.talkclassical.com/33051-new-maria-callas-box-22.html


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## schigolch (Jun 26, 2011)

These are my favorites:


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

The Migenes, Domingo is a wonderful watching spectacle as a movie .
Little details makes it very convincing.
( Armpits from Migenes with hair not being shaved. Not my fantasies but I think thats the way it use to be)
For a stage performance I go for : Obraztsova / Domingo / Kleiber.
Another good stage performance is the Baltsa / Carreras .

The disc I play the most is the for me very sensual Carmen of *Troyanos .*


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## sharik (Jan 23, 2013)

Elena Obraztsova


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## Albert7 (Nov 16, 2014)

I really found one that I really liked... Carmen featuring Elina Garanca


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## Loge (Oct 30, 2014)

Rather like the MILF Carmen from the ROH.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

albertfallickwang said:


> Any recommendations for the best Carmen on CD?


I must confess the Abbado seems somewhat soulless but I'll have to listen again.

Karajan / VPO is tremendously exciting if you view Carmen as verismo. I know Corelli's French does not even approximate to anything a Frenchman would recognize but the whole thing is sumptuous.
Karajan 2 on DG is spoiled by actors who sound nothing like the singers. But the conducting and singing are fine.
Then there is the old Beecham which has a good cast and some wizardry from the put.
The Callas is only recommended for the diva herself. Pretre rushes the whole thing and the Massard and Gedda sound as if Callas would eat them alive!


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## Badinerie (May 3, 2008)

The ROH Carmen is pretty raunchy in parts the right parts of course! I have the DVD. I do Love Elena Obraztsova singing the role. In her heyday She was amazing. De Los Angeles with Beecham is a great CD (Nicolai Gedda Is lovely too) Nothing wrong with the Julia Migenes Domingo Movie either...


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

DavidA said:


> The Callas is only recommended for the diva herself. Pretre rushes the whole thing and the Massard and Gedda sound as if Callas would eat them alive!


I disagree. I think the Callas set is recommendable all round. It's very French. French orchestra and chorus,French conductor, French cast except for Callas and Gedda. I really like Andrea Guiot's plucky Micaela. I prefer Pretre's brisk speeds to Karajan's over languorous ones in his second recording, where the score is loved to death. Massard is perfectly fine as Escamillo. Gedda sounds like what he is, a nice young man caught up in something he cannot hope to understand or deal with, and Callas makes sense of the role like virtually no other. _Dangereuse et belle_ as Micaela describes her and Callas is dangerous from the word go. No problem imagining this Carmen might pull a knife on a fellow worker in a fight. A total free spirit who would die rather than let any man control her, she is like a female Don Juan. Maybe that's why contemporary critics (usually men) found her portrayal hard to take.

I listened to it again only recently when I got the Callas Remastered box, and I honestly think it's the most plausible version I've ever come across. I don't subscribe to this idea that Carmen should be charming or coquettish. Her allure is her danger. Only Baltsa, of all the other versions I've heard, really approaches Callas in this respect.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

GregMitchell said:


> I disagree. I think the Callas set is recommendable all round. It's very French. French orchestra and chorus,French conductor, French cast except for Callas and Gedda. I really like Andrea Guiot's plucky Micaela. I prefer Pretre's brisk speeds to Karajan's over languorous ones in his second recording, where the score is loved to death. Massard is perfectly fine as Escamillo. Gedda sounds like what he is, a nice young man caught up in something he cannot hope to understand or deal with, and Callas makes sense of the role like virtually no other. _Dangereuse et belle_ as Micaela describes her and Callas is dangerous from the word go. No problem imagining this Carmen might pull a knife on a fellow worker in a fight. A total free spirit who would die rather than let any man control her, she is like a female Don Juan. Maybe that's why contemporary critics (usually men) found her portrayal hard to take.
> 
> I listened to it again only recently when I got the Callas Remastered box, and I honestly think it's the most plausible version I've ever come across. I don't subscribe to this idea that Carmen should be charming or coquettish. Her allure is her danger. Only Baltsa, of all the other versions I've heard, really approaches Callas in this respect.


You've said it before and I've agreed with you before, but TC gives us unlimited opportunities to repeat ourselves and annoy everyone who disagrees with us and what could be more fun? 

Callas IS Carmen, as the ads said when the set came out. This is not the gypsy next door. Back in college I played some of this - Carmen's arias - for a fellow music student. His eyes widened, his mouth opened, and he said something I can't remember after 45 years, but it meant something like "WOW! Sexy! Don't mess with her!"

Carmen. Alongside your choice of nice girls, own this one for the days when you need to test your manhood.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

GregMitchell said:


> I disagree. I think the Callas set is recommendable all round. It's very French. French orchestra and chorus,French conductor, French cast except for Callas and Gedda. I really like Andrea Guiot's plucky Micaela. I prefer Pretre's brisk speeds to Karajan's over languorous ones in his second recording, where the score is loved to death. Massard is perfectly fine as Escamillo. Gedda sounds like what he is, a nice young man caught up in something he cannot hope to understand or deal with, and Callas makes sense of the role like virtually no other. _Dangereuse et belle_ as Micaela describes her and Callas is dangerous from the word go. No problem imagining this Carmen might pull a knife on a fellow worker in a fight. A total free spirit who would die rather than let any man control her, she is like a female Don Juan. Maybe that's why contemporary critics (usually men) found her portrayal hard to take.
> 
> I listened to it again only recently when I got the Callas Remastered box, and I honestly think it's the most plausible version I've ever come across. I don't subscribe to this idea that Carmen should be charming or coquettish. Her allure is her danger. Only Baltsa, of all the other versions I've heard, really approaches Callas in this respect.


Pretre has as much nuance as a pneumatic drill. Dreadful! Gedda is pretty feeble - more so than in his Beecham set while Massard's Escamillo is remarkable for its lack of swagger - the notes are sung but much much else. Callas is remarkable but way past her best voice.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

DavidA said:


> Pretre has as much nuance as a pneumatic drill. Dreadful! Gedda is pretty feeble - more so than in his Beecham set while Massard's Escamillo is remarkable for its lack of swagger - the notes are sung but much much else. Callas is remarkable but way past her best voice.


We'll just have to agree to disagree. I'd far rather Pretre's brisk, no-nonsense, very French approach to the score, to, say Karajan's Germanic approach, though I'd agree that Beecham is more elegantly stylish. (What a pity Callas didn't feel she was ready to play Carmen when Legge approached her to appear on the Beecham recording). I don't find Gedda feeble at all. He sings stylishly in excellent French, and is what the character is, a a nice young man completely out of his depth. A heroic Don Jose misses the point entirely. Corelli I find almost unlistenable in the role, though I do quite like Carreras on the second Karajan (just hate the conducting and Ricciarelli's awful Micaela). I'd probably prefer someone like Van Dam as Escamillo, but I honestly don't think Massard is that bad.

As for Callas, the role was perfect for her at this stage of her career, most of it lying very comfortably for her. There are a couple of uncomfortable top notes in the ensembles (which she didn't need to sing anyway). For the rest she sounds exotic, sexy, dangerous, fascinating, alluring, just as she should do.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

GregMitchell said:


> We'll just have to agree to disagree. I'd far rather Pretre's brisk, no-nonsense, very French approach to the score, to, say Karajan's Germanic approach, though I'd agree that Beecham is more elegantly stylish. (What a pity Callas didn't feel she was ready to play Carmen when Legge approached her to appear on the Beecham recording). I don't find Gedda feeble at all. He sings stylishly in excellent French, and is what the character is, a a nice young man completely out of his depth. A heroic Don Jose misses the point entirely. Corelli I find almost unlistenable in the role, though I do quite like Carreras on the second Karajan (just hate the conducting and Ricciarelli's awful Micaela). I'd probably prefer someone like Van Dam as Escamillo, but I honestly don't think Massard is that bad.
> 
> As for Callas, the role was perfect for her at this stage of her career, most of it lying very comfortably for her. There are a couple of uncomfortable top notes in the ensembles (which she didn't need to sing anyway). For the rest she sounds exotic, sexy, dangerous, fascinating, alluring, just as she should do.


We have to agree to differ as you say. I find Pretre awful - he doesn't give the music a chance to breathe. I know some of Karajan's tempi are slow and whatever Corelli is singing is not French but this set has a passion and excitement missing from the Pretre. Van Dam shows us how Escamillo should be - full of preening and swagger and I think HvK's tempi allow him to do that. Massard is awful - plain dull - a real blot on the set. Gedda sings with great taste but he too is a bit feeble. I see Carmen as a verismo opera so Corelli for me is fantastic. Mind you, Carrerras is good too. 
As for Callas she is never less than interesting despite being more like Merimee's Carmen than Bizet's softer portrait. A real bitch really. De los Angeles is a bit too nice. For me Price gets is just about right although Baltsa is fantastic too.
I agree though we might have had a real classic if Callas had sung Carmen on the Beecham set. Here Gedda is better (despite his Flower Song beginning feebly) and Blanc is pretty good. Pity about the Michaela though - sounds old enough to be Jose's grandmother!


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

albertfallickwang said:


> I really found one that I really liked... Carmen featuring Elina Garanca


I was just about to respond to your quest when you found it for yourself. If not "the best", certainly the most satisfying of all Carmens I've ever seen. Garanca IS Carmen!! I cannot wait for March when she will be paired with the incomparable Jonas Kaufmann in a sold-out Met production. THat has to blow the roof off. I'll be there for sure!!!


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## MimiPinson (Jan 2, 2015)

My favourite Carmen is Maria Callas


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## Donna Elvira (Nov 12, 2017)

The Beecham is my favorite.
I think the conducting is of vital mportance in this opera, but I haven't really thought about the reason for it.
For instance, another favorite would be the Kleiber, which is certainly not because of Obraztsova, even though she is quite good, and a mezzo, as opposed to the soprano of de los Angeles, which the more dusky voice has it's benefits especially in certain scenes like the Card Scene.
I think possibly since one factor that makes Carmen such an appealing opera is because of the many moods that are portrayed thruout and that the conductor is really the most capable person to bring that out.
These two favorites really capture all the moods and in such an exemplary fashion, much thanks to the great conductors who really understood this opera.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Loge said:


> Rather like the MILF Carmen from the ROH.


This is a great performance


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Woodduck said:


> You've said it before and I've agreed with you before, but TC gives us unlimited opportunities to repeat ourselves and annoy everyone who disagrees with us and what could be more fun?
> 
> Callas IS Carmen, as the ads said when the set came out. This is not the gypsy next door. Back in college I played some of this - Carmen's arias - for a fellow music student. His eyes widened, his mouth opened, and he said something I can't remember after 45 years, but it meant something like "WOW! Sexy! Don't mess with her!"
> 
> Carmen. Alongside your choice of nice girls, own this one for the days when you need to test your manhood.


When we talk about great Carmens we do need to remember that Callas (and some others) never played her on stage. We can surmise Callas would have made a great stage Carmen (O'd course her admirers will have no doubt) but we cannot know for sure. Just wish she had have recorded it Shen the voice was in better shape.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

DavidA said:


> When we talk about great Carmens we do need to remember that Callas (and some others) never played her on stage. We can surmise Callas would have made a great stage Carmen (O'd course her admirers will have no doubt) but we cannot know for sure. Just wish she had have recorded it Shen the voice was in better shape.


There are very few moments of vocal insecurity in Callas's singing of Carmen. Nearly all of it lies within her comfortable range.

It's questionable whether she would have wanted to do the part onstage. She did state that she had no personal sympathy with a woman who used men as Carmen did - which makes the brilliance of her recording all the more remarkable.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)




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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Woodduck said:


> There are very few moments of vocal insecurity in Callas's singing of Carmen. Nearly all of it lies within her comfortable range.
> 
> It's questionable whether she would have wanted to do the part onstage. She did state that she had no personal sympathy with a woman who used men as Carmen did - which makes the brilliance of *her recording* all the more remarkable.


But it's a recording not a stage performance. And her voice had gone by that time


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

DavidA said:


> But it's a recording not a stage performance. And her voice had gone by that time


Yes, David, I can tell that it's only a recording. It's an amazing achievement for someone who hadn't performed the work onstage but had studied it only in order to make the recording.

A voice that is "gone" cannot do _this:_ 




Who has offered a more finely controlled and subtly colored rendering of that?


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Woodduck said:


> Yes, David, I can tell that it's only a recording. It's an amazing achievement for someone who hadn't performed the work onstage but had studied it only in order to make the recording.
> 
> A voice that is "gone" cannot do _this:_
> 
> ...


Sorry but the voice is quite painful to listen to by this stage. At least as reproduced. The technique may be there but not the quality imo


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

DavidA said:


> Sorry but the voice is quite painful to listen to by this stage. At least as reproduced. The technique may be there but not the quality imo


Then just say that you don't like the quality of her voice, and not that her voice is "gone." That is demonstrably untrue.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Woodduck said:


> Then just say that you don't like the quality of her voice, and not that her voice is "gone." That is demonstrably untrue.


Of course it depends what you mean by 'gone'. The quality of her voice had 'gone' by then imo.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

DavidA said:


> Of course it depends what you mean by 'gone'. The quality of her voice had 'gone' by then imo.


Yeah, it depends on what the meaning of "is" is...  When called on an inaccurate remark, rationalize!

There's no question that the Callas voice took on a different quality in the '60s, a darker tone, and that she exploits her timbre in fascinating ways for artistic effect in the role of Carmen. Listen to the bold way she plays with it in her wordless castanet song, in her "Tra la la la la," and in the dark, fate-laden card aria. The wobbly high notes of her late career don't get much exposure here, and some people really find the dusky, earthy timbre extremely suitable for the character.

No one should be dissuaded from listening to this remarkable interpretation by grossly uninformed remarks such as "her voice is gone." It isn't gone. Period.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Woodduck said:


> Yeah, it depends on what the meaning of "is" is...  *When called on an inaccurate remark, rationalize!
> *
> There's no question that the Callas voice took on a different quality in the '60s, a darker tone, and that she exploits her timbre in fascinating ways for artistic effect in the role of Carmen. Listen to the bold way she plays with it in her wordless castanet song, in her "Tra la la la la," and in the dark, fate-laden card aria. The wobbly high notes of her late career don't get much exposure here, and some people really find the dusky, earthy timbre extremely suitable for the character.
> 
> No one should be dissuaded from listening to this remarkable interpretation *by grossly uninformed remarks such as "her voice is gone."* It isn't gone. Period.


Which is exact;ly what you're doing sir! Pot and Kettle! :lol:

The voice had 'gone' according to my original definition! Period! No matter how you try and rationalise by such remarks as 'grossly uninformed'! My remark was completely informed as I have the complete Callas Carmen and have listened to it a number of times and been disappointed by the quality of the voice! I find it a trial to listen to despite the artistry behind it. The voice had 'gone' imo. It might not be yours but it's mine!


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

DavidA said:


> Which is exact;ly what you're doing sir! Pot and Kettle! :lol:
> 
> *The voice had 'gone' according to my original definition!* Period! My remark was completely informed as I have the complete Callas Carmen and have listened to it a number of times and been disappointed by the quality of the voice! I find it a trial to listen to despite the artistry behind it. The voice had 'gone' imo. It might not be yours but it's mine!


You didn't give any "original definition" of the word "gone." You just threw it against the wall - splat! The fact - repeat, the fact - is that in Callas's Carmen her voice is _not_ gone - not by _any _definition of the word "gone." It doesn't matter how may times you say it is. One cannot sing Carmen with such security, skill and nuance with a voice that's "gone." Her voice had changed with age, but in this recording - as in the Covent Garden Tosca from the same year - it is quite functional and solid on all but the highest notes, which Carmen rarely requires.

You pull this same trick with Wagner all the time. You put mere personal dislikes in the form of definitive judgments, and when people call you on it you pretend that your words don't really mean what they do in fact mean and that you're "just expressing your opinion." Don't you understand the difference between a statement of opinion or taste and a statement of fact (or fiction)? Is that a rhetorical question (yeah, I know it is)?

There are no "alternative facts"; this isn't Trumpland! I get treated to tap dances and backflips every time I take exception to your false certitudes. "Her voice is gone" is simply false. You can twist language all you like but the rest of us have dictionaries and are not fooled.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Woodduck said:


> You didn't give any "original definition" of the word "gone." You just threw it against the wall - splat! The fact - repeat, the fact - is that in Callas's Carmen her voice is _not_ gone - not by _any _definition of the word "gone." It doesn't matter how may times you say it is. One cannot sing Carmen with such security, skill and nuance with a voice that's "gone." Her voice had changed with age, but in this recording - as in the Covent Garden Tosca from the same year - it is quite functional and solid on all but the highest notes, which Carmen rarely requires.
> 
> You pull this same trick with Wagner all the time. You put mere personal dislikes in the form of definitive judgments, and when people call you on it you pretend that your words don't really mean what they do in fact mean and that you're "just expressing your opinion." Don't you understand the difference between a statement of opinion or taste and a statement of fact (or fiction)? Is that a rhetorical question (yeah, I know it is)?
> 
> There are no "alternative facts"; this isn't Trumpland! I get treated to tap dances and backflips every time I take exception to your false certitudes. "Her voice is gone" is simply false. You can twist language all you like but the rest of us have dictionaries and are not fooled.


Sorry now you're just arguing for the sake of it. I make it perfectly clear what I meant and I'm not stooping to this exchanging of personal insults. Please note that Trumpland exists your side of the Atlantic not mine!


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

DavidA said:


> Sorry now you're just arguing for the sake of it. I make it perfectly clear what I meant and I'm not stooping to this exchanging of personal insults.


Woodduck is correct, at no point did you define 'gone' so it is hardly arguing for the sake of argument to point that out and that no definition of the word 'gone' would seem to fit the case. I spent part of today listening to the recording and while I heard a few less than perfect notes and some nasal sounds, I have to agree with Woodduck. I then listened to an hour long discussion about various Carmen recordings, including Callas/Pretre, by John Steane and at no point did he make any comment about her voice being gone or anything remotely similar to that. You don't like it, fine, I respect your right to an opinion but let's leave it at that.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Becca said:


> Woodduck is correct, at no point did you define 'gone' so it is hardly arguing for the sake of argument to point that out and that no definition of the word 'gone' would seem to fit the case. I spent part of today listening to the recording and while I heard a few less than perfect notes and some nasal sounds, I have to agree with Woodduck. I then listened to an hour long discussion about various Carmen recordings, including Callas/Pretre, by John Steane and at no point did he make any comment about her voice being gone or anything remotely similar to that. *You don't like it, fine, I respect your right to an opinion but let's leave it at that.*




That is just the problem - people cannot seem to 'leave it at that'. I made it very clear that by 'gone' I meant in the quality of the voice - it was no longer the beautiful instrument it was. In Callas' Carmen you have to put up with that fact. Interesting, I have just been through various reviews and they all say pretty much the same. I remember years ago a friend of mine remarked he had been listening to someone singing Carmen on the radio and said, "I really didn't like her voice at all. Then I found out at the end it was Callas!" I don't want to weary this because it was just a very short comment I made which someone has made a meal of. As you say, we must accept that everyone has a right to their opinion!


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## Donna Elvira (Nov 12, 2017)

"No one should be dissuaded from listening to this remarkable interpretation"

I'd agree, part of the fun of listening to opera and keeping it fresh is to hear some different interpretations.
One may hear it and say, "it wasn't to my liking, the voice wasn't up to par," or "the interpretation wasn't at all my conception of the character," or "the singer did not fit into the role in a cohesive fashion with the other characters," etc. but people should always seek out interpretations by various artists, especially those with a great history, or particularly individualized like Callas.
I did not like this particular interpretation and , too bad I failed to make notes on why, but I think it was the last one of my points that I gave above. 
Carmen is a mezzo role, even if Callas was past her prime, in this range she should have been not too troubled by the wobble.


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## gustavdimitri (Nov 7, 2017)

For me it's Kleiber in 1978 

Carlos Kleiber: Carmen (Bizet) Vienna Opera, 1978


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

DavidA said:


> [/B]
> 
> That is just the problem - people cannot seem to 'leave it at that'.


Well you hardly help the matter by hammering home your point continually. It is your _opinion_ that Callas's voice had _gone_ by the time she came to record Carmen. You state this as a matter of fact, when it is anything but. Whilst nobody is denying that her voice was not the same instrument it was in the early 1950s, she was still capable of great singing in the right role, and Carmen was the right role for her at that stage in her career. Indeed, I believe it suits her better than it would have done in the 1950s. Her stage performances of Tosca from round about the same time have entered the stuff of legend, and, though many critics noted the deterioration in her voice, I don't recall any of them stating baldly that her voice had _gone_. Even in her late Normas of 1964, though much of the role taxes her well beyond her limits at that time, certain parts are voiced with an empathy and beauty she had never before approached. For me, it doesn't enough outweigh the precariousness of her voice in the upper reaches by then, so I rarely listen to them, but, even then I wouldn't say her voice had _gone_.

If you actually listen to the _Habanera_ detailed in Woodduck's post above, you will find that the singing is quite beautiful, alluring and sexy, her legato well nigh impeccable, and she plays with the words as virtually no other, probably helped by the fact that she was, by this time, a fluent French speaker. The tessitura never takes her beyond her comfortable range, and she uses a range of different colours to underline the text. It is a masterly performance.

Now, by the time of the late recitals she did with Di Stefano, it is my _opinion_ that the voice really had pretty much _gone_, though the *Carmen* excerpts come off better than anything else. In any case, I never listen to them. However much love the audiences lavished on her, I find them too difficult to listen to. I have no such problems with her studio recording of *Carmen* though.

To quote Callas herself, "Some say I have a beautiful voice, some say I have not. It is a matter of opinion. All I can say, those who don't like it shouldn't come to hear me, because if I don't like something, I simply don't bother about it."


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

GregMitchell said:


> *Well you hardly help the matter by hammering home your point continually.* It is your _opinion_ that Callas's voice had _gone_ by the time she came to record Carmen. You state this as a matter of fact, when it is anything but. Whilst nobody is denying that her voice was not the same instrument it was in the early 1950s, she was still capable of great singing in the right role, and Carmen was the right role for her at that stage in her career. Indeed, I believe it suits her better than it would have done in the 1950s. Her stage performances of Tosca from round about the same time have entered the stuff of legend, and, though many critics noted the deterioration in her voice, I don't recall any of them stating baldly that her voice had _gone_. Even in her late Normas of 1964, though much of the role taxes her well beyond her limits at that time, certain parts are voiced with an empathy and beauty she had never before approached. For me, it doesn't enough outweigh the precariousness of her voice in the upper reaches by then, so I rarely listen to them, but, even then I wouldn't say her voice had _gone_.
> 
> If you actually listen to the _Habanera_ detailed in Woodduck's post above, you will find that the singing is quite beautiful, alluring and sexy, her legato well nigh impeccable, and she plays with the words as virtually no other, probably helped by the fact that she was, by this time, a fluent French speaker. The tessitura never takes her beyond her comfortable range, and she uses a range of different colours to underline the text. It is a masterly performance.
> 
> ...


I'm sorry but I made one remark of about 5 words and everyone else has been on the case. Then I am accused of 'hammering home" my point continually! Somewhat surreal! :lol:

I have listened to the Haberna - I have the discs - and for all the artistry I do not find the voice pleasant to listen to by this stage in her career. Now you might think it sounds angelic. But that is your opinion. I have mine. Interesting you no doubt have the recordings she made of excerpts in 1958 where the voice is in considerably better shape. One could have wish she had recorded it earlier. I believe a recording with Karajan was mooted at some point.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

DavidA said:


> I'm sorry but I made one remark of about 5 words and everyone else has been on the case. Then I am accused of 'hammering home" my point continually! Somewhat surreal! :lol:
> 
> I have listened to the Haberna - I have the discs - and for all the artistry I do not find the voice pleasant to listen to by this stage in her career. Now you might think it sounds angelic. But that is your opinion. I have mine. Interesting you no doubt have the recordings she made of excerpts in 1958 where the voice is in considerably better shape. One could have wish she had recorded it earlier. I believe a recording with Karajan was mooted at some point.


You should check your facts, David.

Callas didn't record a note of *Carmen* until she made her first recital of French arias in 1961. The complete recording was made in 1964. The main differences I hear between the recital disc and the complete recording are a greater degree of light and shade in the complete recording, and a clearer appreciation of the text and its subtext. And, no, I don't think it sounds angelic. Angelic is the last thing I want from a Carmen; earthy, sexy, dangerous, sensuous, yes, but angelic, definitely not.

As far as I'm aware, there were never plans to record the opera with Karajan, though there had been discussions about *La Traviata*.

She turned down the opportunity of singing Carmen with Beecham, because she felt her French wasn't good enough yet, another reason she delayed recording the role until three years after the first French recital. Beecham went on to record it with De Los Angeles, as you know.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

GregMitchell said:


> You should check your facts, David.
> 
> Callas didn't record a note of *Carmen* until she made her first recital of French arias in 1961. The complete recording was made in 1964. The main differences I hear between the recital disc and the complete recording are a greater degree of light and shade in the complete recording, and a clearer appreciation of the text and its subtext. And, no, I don't think it sounds angelic. Angelic is the last thing I want from a Carmen; earthy, sexy, dangerous, sensuous, yes, but angelic, definitely not.
> 
> ...


You are right it was 1961. The voice is fresher there and hadn't yet suffered so much deterioration. I thought you would twig, btw, that my use of the word 'angelic' was ironic! :lol: Just whether the artistry is worth putting up with the painful sound of her 1964 voice is a matter of opinion. 
You are right of course about the recordings. I don't think Traviata was ever a serious runner as Karajan didn't like the opera too much. Pity she didn't record Carmen with Beecham, French and all - he conducts so much better than Pretre. And the voice might have been fresher.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

DavidA said:


> Just whether the artistry is worth putting up with the painful sound of her 1964 voice is a matter of opinion.
> You are right of course about the recordings. I don't think Traviata was ever a serious runner as Karajan didn't like the opera too much. Pity she didn't record Carmen with Beecham, French and all - he conducts so much better than Pretre. And the voice might have been fresher.


Except that I (and many others) don't think the sound of the 1964 voice is painful, at least not in this opera, which is vocally, if not interpretatively, not that demanding.

The Traviata was a quite a real proposition, by the way. I believe Kraus was originally mooted for Alfredo, but he proved quite difficult to tie down.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

GregMitchell said:


> *Except that I (and many others) don't think the sound of the 1964 voice is painful*, at least not in this opera, which is vocally, if not interpretatively, not that demanding.
> 
> *The Traviata* was a quite a real proposition, by the way. I believe Kraus was originally mooted for Alfredo, but he proved quite difficult to tie down.


Yes I know you have already said that. However, many of the reviews echo mine.

As to Traviata, Karajan had floated the idea in 1957 following Lucia and Callas verbally agreed, to bring Visconti Traviata to Vienna. Visconti however was furious Giulini was not invited to conduct and told Menegheni so at which the latter increased Callas' fee way beyond the limits. So Traviata took place in Vienna but not with the dream cast and was not a great success. As for a recording, it does not appear to have been seriously mooted unless you have information I have not..


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

DavidA said:


> Yes I know you have already said that. However, many of the reviews echo mine.
> 
> As to Traviata, Karajan had floated the idea in 1957 following Lucia and Callas verbally agreed, to bring Visconti Traviata to Vienna. Visconti however was furious Giulini was not invited to conduct and told Menegheni so at which the latter increased Callas' fee way beyond the limits. So Traviata took place in Vienna but not with the dream cast and was not a great success. As for a recording, it does not appear to have been seriously mooted unless you have information I have not..


According to Richard Osborne in _Hebert von Karajan- A Life in Music_, Legge submitted a proposal to Karajan in February 1960 of a Traviata with Callas, Kraus and Taddei, and was given the go-ahead by Bicknell at EMI, albeit with an amber light. Karajan and Callas were, after all, EMI's top classical earners at the time. Apparently the project floundered because Karajan had doubts about what would happen if Callas pulled out eleventh hour, and also because Kraus was becoming more and more elusive. Callas ended up re-recording *Norma* instead.


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## gustavdimitri (Nov 7, 2017)

To be honest... Callas' voice has never been 'great', for me it was the combination of timbre, the collarature, interpretation etc etc and acting that made it and her *Great*!


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

GregMitchell said:


> According to Richard Osborne in _Hebert von Karajan- A Life in Music_, Legge submitted a proposal to Karajan in February 1960 of a Traviata with Callas, Kraus and Taddei, and was given the go-ahead by Bicknell at EMI, albeit with an amber light. Karajan and Callas were, after all, EMI's top classical earners at the time. Apparently the project floundered because Karajan had doubts about what would happen if Callas pulled out eleventh hour, and also because Kraus was becoming more and more elusive. Callas ended up re-recording *Norma* instead.


Not quite true. Legge proposed a Traviata with Callas. Bicknell actually questioned the earning power of Callas / Karajan as the Callas Butterfly had only earned half of the de los Angeles. However, Bicknell was then convinced it would not happen, but gave the green light anyway, and then it was HvK who started having doubts and Krauss who issued a string of demands. So the thing fell through., Pity!


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

DavidA said:


> Not quite true. Legge proposed a Traviata with Callas. Bicknell actually questioned the earning power of Callas / Karajan as the Callas Butterfly had only earned half of the de los Angeles. However, Bicknell was then convinced it would not happen, but gave the green light anyway, and then it was HvK who started having doubts and Krauss who issued a string of demands. So the thing fell through., Pity!


I am not making this up, I was pretty much quoting from the Osborne book, which I'm sure you have read.

According to Osborne, in 1964 EMI artists top royalty artists were as follows:-
The Beatles £46,000 10s 4d
Cliff Richard £18,847 15s 9d
The Dave Clark Five £13, 535 16s 10d
Herbert von Karajan £10,903 7s 8d
Maria Callas £10,022 9s 9d
Dietrich Fischer-Dieskau £7,165 17s 3d
Klemperer £6,234 7s 5d

If the Callas/Karajan Butterfly didn't sell that well, it clearly hadn't affected their earning power in general. Admittedly the Callas/Karajan Butterfly lacks some of the cloying sweetness, which many people seem to enjoy, of many other versions, but it is now regarded one of the best recordings of the opera. Also the Callas/Karajan Trovatore was always a good seller.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

GregMitchell said:


> I am not making this up, I was pretty much quoting from the Osborne book, which I'm sure you have read.
> 
> According to Osborne, in 1964 EMI artists top royalty artists were as follows:-
> The Beatles £46,000 10s 4d
> ...


I too was quoting form the Osborne book re the Traviata and Bicknell's lack of enthusiasm. See pp 448-449


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## adriesba (Dec 30, 2019)

I'm surprised this thread hasn't had posts in such a long time. Anyway, I have the Maazel recording of _Carmen_ with Migenes. It's great, but Migenes is no opera singer. It's not that she doesn't do her thing well, she just sounds very non-opera-singer-ish. I'm not sure how to put it.

I also have the Solti recording with Troyanos, and I probably need to listen to more of it still, but it just isn't working for me which is disappointing considering all the attention to detail outlined in the booklet.

The Pretre recording with Callas seems quite good, but it has the recitatives. The Karajan recording with Price also looks good, but it too has the recitatives. I would really rather not have the recitatives. This opera needs the dialogue.

What is another good recording with the dialogue?


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

adriesba said:


> I'm surprised this thread hasn't had posts in such a long time. Anyway, I have the Maazel recording of _Carmen_ with Migenes. It's great, but Migenes is no opera singer. It's not that she doesn't do her thing well, she just sounds very non-opera-singer-ish. I'm not sure how to put it.
> 
> I also have the Solti recording with Troyanos, and I probably need to listen to more of it still, but it just isn't working for me which is disappointing considering all the attention to detail outlined in the booklet.
> 
> ...


I don't mind the recitatives, which is why the Callas/Prêtre version is still my top choice, but I think one should have as well at least one version with the spoken dialogue.

I have Karajan II, but it has its problems. The score is beautifully played, but the conducting is slow and ponderous and, well, Germanic, which is completely wrong. Karajan evidently loves the score, but he loves it to death. Furthermore, the benefit of having the spoken dialogue is vitiated by having actors speak the roles in a completely different acoustic. They almost seem to be performing in a different play. Ricciarelli, a singer I normally like, is miscast as Micaëla, but Baltsa, Carreras and Van Dam are all excellent.

The Abbado, which also uses the spoken dialogue, is a good bet. I don't know why I never bought it, but I've heard it quite a few times and it's really very good, probably helped by the fact that it was based on stage performances. It's just that, for me anyway, Berganza doesn't quite stamp herself on the role the way Callas and Baltsa do.

It's always a great cause for regret that Shirley Verret, one of the greatest Carmens of her time, never recorded the role.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

The Callas / Pretre is pretty poorly conducted and, apart from Callas, without interest in the cast. Callas unfortunately was a few years too late in recording it. I just don't like the sound her voice makes. I've had a few goes at it but can't really get on with it.

Karajan 2 has the dialogue but is spoiled by the fact that it is spoken by a separate cast who sound nothing like the singers. Just how this could have been allowed is incredible. I mean, surely van Dam (a French speaker) could have been allowed to speak his lines. I love the performance mostly for the care and attention HvK brings to the score. Also Baltsa's fiery Carmen and the rest of the cast are pretty good too. 

The Abaddo - I had it in the German pressing and found it dull then bought it very cheap in a remastered copy and it came to life! Yes, it can be recommended! But watch you get the remastered version.


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## Rogerx (Apr 27, 2018)

I still like this one very much, Kleiber is doing a great job, Obraztsova may not be the most refined singer but she makes up with here acting.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

DavidA said:


> The Callas / Pretre is pretty poorly conducted and, apart from Callas, without interest in the cast. Callas unfortunately was a few years too late in recording it. I just don't like the sound her voice makes. I've had a few goes at it but can't really get on with it.


Yes I think we got that point several times over earlier in the thread. No need to keep hammering it home.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Tsaraslondon said:


> Yes I think we got that point several times over earlier in the thread. No need to keep hammering it home.


Sorry but I believe you made your points on an earlier thread too!


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

DavidA said:


> *The Callas / Pretre is pretty poorly conducted* and, apart from Callas, without interest in the cast. Callas unfortunately was a few years too late in recording it. I just don't like the sound her voice makes. I've had a few goes at it but can't really get on with it.


Really? I remember you saying the same thing about the Pretre Tosca. Do you have something against Pretre (other than his not being Von Karajan)?

N.


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

I did an in depth recording review of Carmen and you can read it here (from post 99):

Carmen on disc

When it comes to the versions with dialogue beware, do you want the opera comique that Bizet wanted or the revised Oeser edition that is a musicologist's reworking of the score as Bizet approved it for publication by going back to the sketches and putting in parts that the composer had rejected?

I think the best version with dialogue is the Cluytens opera comique version on EMI, it's a very different beast to performances of the opera as we are used to them today. Lighter, swifter and more ironically, authentically gallic. I would get the EMI release rather than the Naxos one if it is available.

N.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

The Conte said:


> Really? I remember you saying the same thing about the Pretre Tosca. Do you have something against Pretre (other than his not being Von Karajan)?
> 
> N.


Pretty routine conductor I thought. I have not the recordings and don't think too much of either of them although he struggles with the casts in both I will admit. I remember his conducting of the Domingo / Stratas Pagliacci for the Zefferelli film not being too good either. You think he's good I suppose?


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

Best Carmens ever:
Stevens/Migenes/Garanca
(I was too young to see the first two but Garanca was like a stage animal -- and with Alagna as her Don Jose, the chemistry was overwhelmingly hot.)


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

DavidA said:


> Pretty routine conductor I thought. I have not the recordings and don't think too much of either of them although he struggles with the casts in both I will admit. I remember his conducting of the Domingo / Stratas Pagliacci for the Zefferelli film not being too good either. You think he's good I suppose?


I only saw him conduct live once: Turandot at La Scala. I was rather miffed for the first twenty minutes or so as his conducting was so different to the idea of the opera I had in my head. His tempi seemed rather eccentric for one thing. Then I realised that he knew the score and what he was doing made its own sense of it. It suddenly all clicked and everything fell into place. He isn't one of my favourite conductors, but I certainly wouldn't say that he was bad. He made some superb recordings. The Callas Carmen (his youthful energy and drive is just what the piece needs to stop it becoming '_OPERA_'), The Peral Fishers, Faust and La voix humane amongst others.

N.


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

nina foresti said:


> Best Carmens ever:
> Stevens/Migenes/Garanca
> (I was too young to see the first two but Garanca was like a stage animal -- and with Alagna as her Don Jose, the chemistry was overwhelmingly hot.)


My DVD recommendations would be the Garanca/Alagana for the 'grand opera' version and the John Elliot Gardiner from the Opera Comique for the original version with dialogue.

N.


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## adriesba (Dec 30, 2019)

The Conte said:


> I did an in depth recording review of Carmen and you can read it here (from post 99):
> 
> Carmen on disc
> 
> ...


I am aware of the different versions. I don't think I'd be too picky about them, but I'd prefer if the performance tried to follow what Bizet would have wanted (the Solti recording takes a lot of care in this aspect).


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

adriesba said:


> I am aware of the different versions. I don't think I'd be too picky about them, but I'd prefer if the performance tried to follow what Bizet would have wanted (the Solti recording takes a lot of care in this aspect).


Does it, how did Solti know, did he consult a medium?

I agree that Solti makes better choices than most who use the Oeser edition as their starting point. However, there are only two main recordings that use the version with dialogue as Bizet approved it and the clear front runner of the two is the Cluytens.

N.


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## adriesba (Dec 30, 2019)

The Conte said:


> Does it, how did Solti know, did he consult a medium?
> 
> I agree that Solti makes better choices than most who use the Oeser edition as their starting point. However, there are only two main recordings that use the version with dialogue as Bizet approved it and the clear front runner of the two is the Cluytens.
> 
> N.


You are correct. Often this is just speculation. I think I should clarify what I mean.

Solti mentions this in the booklet:



> As it was impossible to know what Bizet himself wanted, each decision had to be made on the basis of my own experience of conducting, and my personal feeling for the rightness or wrongness of the particular passage in its context. I could never say that the version I have arrived at is what Bizet wanted - nobody could say that - but it is a version that I have worked out with much thought and in all good conscience.


Solti couldn't have _known_ what Bizet would have wanted, and indeed most of this is speculation.

Regarding a section in Act I, Solti says:



> This was undoubtedly cut before the first night because it is not included in the Choudens vocal score, but I felt it may have been one of the cuts that had been forced on Bizet, and so I decided to keep the passage and follow the Oeser score.


Solti also mentions in regards to a part of the children's choir scene in the first act:



> I am absolutely certain that this passage was cut for some production reason such as it being too long, and not because Bizet thought it should be cut.


Indeed there is still speculation here, but it is a speculation that is motivated by an attempt to understand what Bizet might have wanted, not by what opera companies have decided or by what one thinks will be most popular with the audience.

In the thread about recordings of Gounod's _Faust_, I linked this article: 
https://www.gramophone.co.uk/review/gounod-faust-4

This article says:



> Plasson here restores three passages in an Appendix, which were cut by Gounod before the premiere, two because they appeared awkward where they stood in the score, the third because he had second thoughts.


Sometimes composers themselves have thoughts about how they want to modify their score, such as is the case with those cuts to _Faust_. Other times though, changes are not made because the composer wanted them, but because of external pressures. Such a case is mentioned in the booklet from the Solti _Tannhäuser_ recording:



> Similar considerations led Mr Solti to choose to restore the (Dresden) support of the chorus and other soloists to Tannhäuser's "Zum Heil, den Sündigen zu führen" which Wagner had reluctantly withdrawn in Paris to appease the tenor.


Sometimes judgments can be made to reflect what the composers would have wanted. Other times much speculation can be involved. In the case of _Carmen_, I'm guessing it's probably mostly speculation. Which is why, like I said, I wouldn't be too picky in that particular case.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

nina foresti said:


> Best Carmens ever:
> Stevens/Migenes/Garanca
> (I was too young to see the first two but Garanca was like a stage animal -- and with Alagna as her Don Jose, the chemistry was overwhelmingly hot.)


Garanca's Carmen is reportedly great to watch, but on the Met radio broadcast it was uninteresting to hear. Almost no vocal characterization.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

DavidA said:


> Pretty routine conductor I thought. I have not the recordings and don't think too much of either of them although he struggles with the casts in both I will admit. I remember his conducting of the Domingo / Stratas Pagliacci for the Zefferelli film not being too good either. You think he's good I suppose?


His performances of Poulenc at least are generally highly thought of.


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## adriesba (Dec 30, 2019)

Has anyone heard this one?

View attachment 132647


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

I've found this version very enjoyable. It has the recitatives. One problem is they have included two versions of the haberna which is interesting but put them one after the other which is idiotic.


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## adriesba (Dec 30, 2019)

Tsaraslondon said:


> It's always a great cause for regret that Shirley Verret, one of the greatest Carmens of her time, never recorded the role.


Do you mean a studio recording? There are these:

View attachment 132713


View attachment 132714


I'm sure she's great.


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## Rogerx (Apr 27, 2018)

adriesba said:


> Do you mean a studio recording? There are these:
> 
> View attachment 132713
> 
> ...


There's a DVD out there also.


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## adriesba (Dec 30, 2019)

Rogerx said:


> There's a DVD out there also.


With Shirley Verrett? I haven't seen one.


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## Rogerx (Apr 27, 2018)

adriesba said:


> With Shirley Verrett? I haven't seen one.


Ooops... senior moment, I mean Grace Bumbry (Carmen):angel:
Good watching .


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Rogerx said:


> Ooops... senior moment, I mean Grace Bumbry (Carmen):angel:
> Good watching .


Bumbry made a DVD with Karajan. It is a staged recording and unfortunately dubbed.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

adriesba said:


> Do you mean a studio recording? There are these:
> 
> View attachment 132713
> 
> ...


I'm pretty sure these are off the air recordings rather than commercial releases


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## Rogerx (Apr 27, 2018)

DavidA said:


> Bumbry made a DVD with Karajan. It is a staged recording and unfortunately dubbed.


You are right sir, but...the glass being half full and that .....


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Rogerx said:


> You are right sir, but...the glass being half full and that .....











What am I thinking? She made this one with Vickers! I have it in my collection somewhere


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

adriesba said:


> Do you mean a studio recording? There are these:
> 
> View attachment 132713
> 
> ...


Yes I meant a commercial release. Sound is pretty poor on both these.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

DavidA said:


> View attachment 132718
> 
> 
> What am I thinking? She made this one with Vickers! I have it in my collection somewhere


This promises much more than it delivers. It's all a bit dull and Bumbry is a completely anonymus Carmen, rather like Troyanos on the Solti.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Tsaraslondon said:


> This promises much more than it delivers. It's all a bit dull and Bumbry is a completely anonymus Carmen, rather like Troyanos on the Solti.


Worth hearing for Vickers Jose but Frubeck not the right conductor. I think Bumbry needed her magnetic stage presence to really show off her Carmen


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## Rogerx (Apr 27, 2018)

DavidA said:


> View attachment 132718
> 
> 
> What am I thinking? She made this one with Vickers! I have it in my collection somewhere


I have made a picture from my disc and LP , can't find my up lode cable, however it's there for those who want it .


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## Revitalized Classics (Oct 31, 2018)

I've recently enjoyed listening to Regine Crespin's versions on YouTube: I don't think she has been mentioned yet. There is a selection to choose from including...

1970/71? Studio excerpts 





1974 Studio Complete Opera 





1975 Complete Opera Live at the Met 





1977 Habanera on TV





1978 Excerpts Live at the Met


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## Hermastersvoice (Oct 15, 2018)

Before contributors start killing each other over Callas’ Carmen, is it too late to throw in my preference for Beecham’s Carmen.

i do so because Beecham knows how the music goes; an inflection here, a rubato there, yielding to singers and instrumentalist but always with an unfailing sense of rhythm (something which he shares with Karajan) and with the overarching display of certainty - which is so comforting for the listener - that here’s a conductor who knows where this ends. I don’t agree with an assessment of another contributor that the straightforward approach of Prêtre is particularly French. I find it just plain uninspired, like Maazel.

With regards to Carmen herself, of all the singers only with Vicky Los Angeles can I actually hear and understand every word. To my ear it’s truly idiomatic (but here we need francophones to weigh in). I also have to admit that she probably is the only Carmen that is outright lovable; I don’t need to question why José falls in love. Gedda is also much more certain of voice in 1958, again with that pianissimo at the end of the flower song, I don’t question Carmen’s motives either.

Beecham’s Carmen is hors concours, in the stereo era anyway.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Hermastersvoice said:


> Before contributors start killing each other over Callas' Carmen, is it too late to throw in my preference for Beecham's Carmen.
> 
> i do so because Beecham knows how the music goes; an inflection here, a rubato there, yielding to singers and instrumentalist but always with an unfailing sense of rhythm (something which he shares with Karajan) and with the overarching display of certainty - which is so comforting for the listener - that here's a conductor who knows where this ends. I don't agree with an assessment of another contributor that the straightforward approach of Prêtre is particularly French. I find it just plain uninspired, like Maazel.
> 
> ...


This was the first Carmen I bought and it remains a favourite if not THE definitive Carmen. I think it is a tribute to how great the opera is that there is no definitive version, good as some definitely are. Interestingly, de los Angeles was not Beecham's original choice for Carmen. That was the (then) young Swedish soprano Kersten Meyer. I'm not sure why de los Angeles was chosen instead. Anyone know? Maybe star quality? What Beecham brings is an utterly natural feel to the music. de los Angeles is a charmer rather than an overt sexual threat. She is really a bit too nice - you can't really imagine her knifing a work mate. She is loveable - but should Carmen be outright loveable? But for singing she is glorious. Gedda is pretty good and Blanc a good French baritone.


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## Hermastersvoice (Oct 15, 2018)

Thank you, DavidA. Yes, De Los Angeles is the only Carmen (I can think of) whose singing can be said to be glorious. And then she has a quality which I haven’t found with any other singer, namely that singing is the only means of utterance that seems natural to her. She is not an opera singer producing notes, tone, diction; her singing has the quality of being so natural, the only meaningful way of utterance. Ok, I’m in love with her Carmen (as much as her Violetta Valéry).


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Hermastersvoice said:


> Thank you, DavidA. Yes, De Los Angeles is the only Carmen (I can think of) whose singing can be said to be glorious. And then she has a quality which I haven't found with any other singer, namely that singing is the only means of utterance that seems natural to her. She is not an opera singer producing notes, tone, diction; her singing has the quality of being so natural, the only meaningful way of utterance. Ok, I'm in love with her Carmen (as much as her Violetta Valéry).


Yes but I would say there are other aspects of Carmen other interpreters draw out though. I just enjoy them all! Well most of them!


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## Ulfilas (Mar 5, 2020)

This is only Carmen I need on my shelves, the last remnant of the Opera Comique tradition.

I think Solange Michel is a refreshingly un-cliched Carmen, and it's wonderful to have a completely French cast.

Also Cluytens' conducting is electric!


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## Hermastersvoice (Oct 15, 2018)

Ulfilas, I agree, it’s marvellous. A true representative of a particular tradition. Which, I think, among all recordings to follow, Beecham is the only one who hasn’t quite left.


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## adriesba (Dec 30, 2019)

OK, sorry if this is a dumb question, but I'm a bit confused. When people talk about these recordings being in the French tradition or quintessentially French or one more French than others, what exactly does that mean?


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## Ulfilas (Mar 5, 2020)

In regard to the Cluytens recording, the opera was first performed at the Opera Comique in Paris, and they maintained a performance tradition through to the end of World War II (this was recorded in 1950). 

Basically all recordings since have international casts with star names, and the traditions have died out.

That doesn't mean that, say, the Beecham recording is bad! He was after all a master of the style! For me it's something particular to French opera, that it's hard to find really idiomatic recordings after the 1950s.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

adriesba said:


> OK, sorry if this is a dumb question, but I'm a bit confused. When people talk about these recordings being in the French tradition or quintessentially French or one more French than others, what exactly does that mean?


The short answer: not sung by Corelli.

The long (but not too long, as that would not be authentically French) answer: having a certain lightness of touch, a certain grace, a certain wit, a certain, aaaah... je ne sais quoi. The French vocal tradition emphasized a clear tone, a clean musical line, a minimum of extra-musical emotional signaling, and a sharp projection of the text in, of course, perfect French.


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## adriesba (Dec 30, 2019)

But what are the traditions? Having French singers?


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## adriesba (Dec 30, 2019)

Woodduck said:


> The short answer: not sung by Corelli.
> 
> The long (but not too long, as that would not be authentically French) answer: having a certain lightness of touch, a certain grace, a certain wit, a certain, aaaah... je ne sais quoi. The French vocal tradition emphasized a clear tone, a clean musical line, a minimum of extra-musical emotional signaling, and a sharp projection of the text in, of course, perfect French.


OK. That makes sense. The thing is, I wouldn't know what perfect French sounds like. :lol:


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## Rogerx (Apr 27, 2018)

adriesba said:


> OK. That makes sense. The thing is, I wouldn't know what perfect French sounds like. :lol:


In that case, _just judge for yourself,_ trust your own ears.
Best remedy.


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## Rogerx (Apr 27, 2018)

Revitalized Classics said:


> I've recently enjoyed listening to Regine Crespin's versions on YouTube: I don't think she has been mentioned yet. There is a selection to choose from including...
> 
> o]


I still have that LP release, must spin it on of those days.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Hermastersvoice said:


> Before contributors start killing each other over Callas' Carmen, is it too late to throw in my preference for Beecham's Carmen.
> 
> i do so because Beecham knows how the music goes; an inflection here, a rubato there, yielding to singers and instrumentalist but always with an unfailing sense of rhythm (something which he shares with Karajan) and with the overarching display of certainty - which is so comforting for the listener - that here's a conductor who knows where this ends. I don't agree with an assessment of another contributor that the straightforward approach of Prêtre is particularly French. I find it just plain uninspired, like Maazel.
> 
> ...


I agree with you 100% re Beecham's conducting, which is deliciously elegant and light (in the right sense) unlike Karajan who literally loves the score to death - all too ponderous and Germanic, particularly in his second studio recording. That said I rather like Prêtre's no nonsense, swiftly paced conducting. It suits his conception and his cast.

De Los Angeles is one of my favourite singers, but I'm afraid I don't find her Carmen very convincing. Musically it is superb of course, but where is the danger? Micaëla describes Carmen as _dangereuse et belle_ and I don't hear that in her portrayal, nor does she sound like someone who might pull a knife on a colleague. She is altogether too ladylike.

I don't know about the Kerstin Meyer story DavidA mentions, but I do know that Walter Legge first suggested Callas for the project. In his memoirs, Legge states that Beecham was keen to work with her but that Callas turned down the offer saying that her French wasn't good enough yet to attempt a complete role. She was beginning to experience problems with her voice in the late 1950s, and she also no doubt didn't want people to say she was turning to mezzo roles because she had lost her top register. She had, but she wasn't about to admit it yet, not even to herself.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

adriesba said:


> OK. That makes sense. The thing is, I wouldn't know what perfect French sounds like. :lol:


I think you begin to hear that for yourself eventually. Listen to native French singers like, say, Régine Crespin or, more recently, Roberto Alagna or Véronique Gens and then listen to Franco Corelli, Joan Sutherland or Pavarotti and you will surely hear the difference. In fact in _La Fille du Régiment_, for instance, Pavarotti's diction is so clear you can hear just how bad his French is.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Tsaraslondon said:


> In fact in _La Fille du Régiment_, for instance, Pavarotti's diction is so clear you can hear just how bad his French is.


Just to clarify what I mean here. Pavarotti articulates the text quite clearly, as he always did in Italian too. It's just that he articulates so clearly you can hear how bad his pronunciation is. Still, it's a lot better than Corelli's!


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## adriesba (Dec 30, 2019)

I'm guessing no one has heard this. It seems fairly obscure.

View attachment 132978


I found it on Google Play and started listening to it. I don't know why, but it really hit the spot for me.

It's also on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLO1Oz-mlH6ulVKLBveRnsN4jBKknoCecs

The tracks were all scattered about. So I put them in a playlist. What does anyone think? The only opinion I could find on the internet was not very positive: 
http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2019/Jul/Bizet_Carmen_survey.pdf

He calls the singer for Micaëla "Minnie Mouse", lol.

I found it enjoyable, though.


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## Revitalized Classics (Oct 31, 2018)

adriesba said:


> I'm guessing no one has heard this. It seems fairly obscure.
> 
> View attachment 132978
> 
> ...


Glad you enjoyed it, I've not heard it - will be good to check it out.

It is worth remembering that contemporaries thought it was worth recording with that cast.

Sometimes what a critic privileges in a "Reference Recording" amounts to a safe recommendation: Dervaux's version might not be the first or only version of the opera you'd recommend to a beginner but it can be a lot of fun hearing a different take


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## adriesba (Dec 30, 2019)

Revitalized Classics said:


> Sometimes what a critic privileges in a "Reference Recording" amounts to a safe recommendation: Dervaux's version might not be the first or only version of the opera you'd recommend to a beginner but it can be a lot of fun hearing a different take


True. That may be some of his reasoning. Also, I get what he says about Dervaux's tempi, but I don't really find a problem with them. Actually, I found them quite refreshing.



Revitalized Classics said:


> It is worth remembering that contemporaries thought it was worth recording with that cast.


Yes. That's one thing I didn't completely understand about the critic's review. He said Madeira's singing was "rather too heavy and mature-sounding for the role, generally lacking delicacy and charm". I see that her voice is "heavier" than most others who sing the role, but that's what I liked about it.

From what I have read, Madeira was a well-respected Carmen in her day, although now she is probably mostly remembered for singing Erda in the Solti _Das Rheingold_ recording. I wish there was a stereo recording with her in the role of Carmen.


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## Op.123 (Mar 25, 2013)

My favourite Carmen recording would be a live 1959 recording sung in Italian. Obviously not the first choice of many due to the language, but it's cast - Giulietta Simionato, Franco Corelli (not marred with any bad diction in an Italian performance), Mirella Freni and Giangiacomo Guelfi is superb vocally and dramatically.


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## Rogerx (Apr 27, 2018)

adriesba said:


> I'm guessing no one has heard this. It seems fairly obscure.
> 
> View attachment 132978
> 
> ...


Now that's is the spirit, thanks for sharing.....


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

adriesba said:


> I'm guessing no one has heard this. It seems fairly obscure.
> 
> View attachment 132978
> 
> ...


This is what London Green has to say about this recording in _The Metropolitan Guide to Recorded Opera_.



> This recording commemorates an Aix-en-Provence Festival production of orchestral grace and spirit: all the instrumental - and choral - passages are done with panache. Of the soloists, only Jean Madeira is notable; her lustrous contralto and forthright manner make for a strong, conventionally outspoken Carmen. There are occasional breath-control problems and some of the elephantine chirping typical of this species of Carmen, but her Habanera is surprisingly offhand and the Seguidilla rhythmically alert. Her Card Song might have been overwhelming; here it lacks the seamless _legato_ and expansive phrasing for a fully developed tragic realisation. She does the heroics of the death scene well. Nicola Filcauridi is a Don José of desperate conviction but ugly tone. The conclusion of Acts III and IV are at least forthright, but all his lyric moments are gritty and pressured. Michel Roux has some charm of manner if not tone, but Janette Vivalda is a brassy Micaëla without either the sweet reserve for Act I or the sense of terrorised faith for Act III. Of the others Daniel Marty is a pleasant, spirited Morales. Altogether, Dervaux's rhythmic vitality and orchestral balance and Madeira's tone quality - and occasional humour - are the attractive elements here.


His survey covers all complete recordings up to the 1989 Ozawa recording with Jessye Norman, and he sums up thus,



> A final choice among complete performances is impossible, given the variety of approaches to the major characters and the many different editions of the work. The one Carmen I would not want to be without is Callas, though De Los Angeles sings beautifully and the Ponselle version, with all its excesses, is historically fascinating, as is the richly cast Stevens performance. Among Don Josés, Vickers and Domingo (Abbado) are probably the most satisfying. Albanese and Cotrubas are the compelling Micaëlas and Van Dam the ranking Escamillo. Of the later sets, the Berganza-Abbado is probably the most satisfactory.


Of course this is only one man's view, but I have found I often agree with London Green's essays in the book.


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## adriesba (Dec 30, 2019)

I do understand Moore's and Green's criticisms of the recording. They both seem to be addressing similar things. I have enjoyed the recording though.

Like Green said, it's hard to pick a best choice. The recording with Madeira has the recitatives, which I don't like. I like the Karajan recording with Price, but even though I don't know what perfect French sounds like, I can at least tell that Corelli's French is quite rough. I also like the Callas recording, but both the recording with Price and the one with Callas also have the recitatives. I like the care Solti put into his recording plus the fact that he uses the dialogue, but it just doesn't seem to work for me on several levels I can't quite explain. For one though, I thought Troyanos sounded too hesitant. The Abbado recording is somewhat appealing, but I just felt that Abbado's conducting was too relaxed. I like the Maazel recording, which was the first I became familiar with, but Migenes just doesn't sound operatic enough. Plus I have no idea what the dialogue is. I'll probably end up getting about 10 recordings some day and just circulating through them.


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## adriesba (Dec 30, 2019)

That reminds me of a question. What is the dialogue used in the Maazel recording? I thought I read that it was made especially for the movie, but I can't remember where I read that or if it was from a reliable source of information. All I know is that the Maazel dialogue is not in my libretto I followed.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Tsaraslondon said:


> This is what London Green has to say about this recording in _The Metropolitan Guide to Recorded Opera_.
> 
> His survey covers all complete recordings up to the 1989 Ozawa recording with Jessye Norman, and he sums up thus,
> 
> Of course this is only one man's view, but I have found I often agree with London Green's essays in the book.


I must confess that the Metropolitan guide to opera which I have does offer some pretty strange choices. But all we can say is there are many ways of doing a masterpiece and many ways to enjoy it. I've got in my library:
Cluytans -lithe but pretty fast
Karajan with Simionato from Vienna in French
Beecham
Schippers - great apart from del Monaco 
Karajan with Price - singing heavenly
Pretre
Abbado
Karajan with Baltsa - Why did they have to have actors speaking the parts?
Ozawa
Frubeck
Plasson
Most of these have a certain enjoyment to be listened to in their very different ways. So why not just enjoy? There is not one definitive Carmen.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

DavidA said:


> I must confess that the Metropolitan guide to opera which I have does offer some pretty strange choices.


Which is why it's good that the surveys are done by different critics. I've found which ones I tend to agree with and which ones I don't, which is useful when wanting to research for a possible purchase.


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## Revitalized Classics (Oct 31, 2018)

adriesba said:


> Yes. That's one thing I didn't completely understand about the critic's review. He said Madeira's singing was "rather too heavy and mature-sounding for the role, generally lacking delicacy and charm". I see that her voice is "heavier" than most others who sing the role, but that's what I liked about it.
> 
> From what I have read, Madeira was a well-respected Carmen in her day, although now she is probably mostly remembered for singing Erda in the Solti _Das Rheingold_ recording. I wish there was a stereo recording with her in the role of Carmen.


Genuine contraltos in the part are pretty scarce but interesting to hear: one of the few semi-recent examples was Ewa Podles


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

Tsaraslondon said:


> Which is why it's good that the surveys are done by different critics. I've found which ones I tend to agree with and which ones I don't, which is useful when wanting to research for a possible purchase.


I tried to do this, but never found a critic who I agreed with even more than 50% of the time. I'd much rather ask the aficionados here as you all take opera far more seriously than any of the critics, some of whom seem more interested in a free night out.

N.


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

Op.123 said:


> My favourite Carmen recording would be a live 1959 recording sung in Italian. Obviously not the first choice of many due to the language, but it's cast - Giulietta Simionato, Franco Corelli (not marred with any bad diction in an Italian performance), Mirella Freni and Giangiacomo Guelfi is superb vocally and dramatically.


This was _one_ of my recommended recordings. Yes, it is as far from authentically French as you can get, but the opera survives that sort of transformation. (After all Bizet's avant garde opera comique survived being translated into international grand opera, why not have an Italian verismo version?)

N.


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## Rogerx (Apr 27, 2018)

adriesba said:


> That reminds me of a question. What is the dialogue used in the Maazel recording? I thought I read that it was made especially for the movie, but I can't remember where I read that or if it was from a reliable source of information. All I know is that the Maazel dialogue is not in my libretto I followed.


Do you mean the DVD or the one Maazel made with Moffo and Corelli?


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

The Conte said:


> This was _one_ of my recommended recordings. Yes, it is as far from authentically French as you can get, but the opera survives that sort of transformation. (After all Bizet's avant garde opera comique survived being translated into international grand opera, why not have an Italian verismo version?)
> 
> N.


It's always struck me that Carmen is a verismo opera anyway, albeit not quite so as the Italians. Why can handle the grand Opera treatment quite handily like Karajan gives it. It's a testimony to how great it is they can survive so many interpretations.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

The Conte said:


> I tried to do this, but never found a critic who I agreed with even more than 50% of the time. I'd much rather ask the aficionados here as you all take opera far more seriously than any of the critics, some of whom seem more interested in a free night out.
> 
> N.


Well I was talking specifically about _The Metropolitan Guide_, which was piblished back in 1993. There are few critics today that I would take much notice of. Certainly nobody of the calibre of, say, John Steane, Richard Osborne or Harold Rosenthal.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

DavidA said:


> It's always struck me that Carmen is a verismo opera anyway, albeit not quite so as the Italians. Why can handle the grand Opera treatment quite handily like Karajan gives it. It's a testimony to how great it is they can survive so many interpretations.


That's stretching it a bit considering the opera was written in France in 1875 and *Cavalleria Rusticana*, usually taken to be the first _verismo_ opera premiered in Italy in 1890.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Tsaraslondon said:


> That's stretching it a bit considering the opera was written in France in 1875 and *Cavalleria Rusticana*, usually taken to be the first _verismo_ opera premiered in Italy in 1890.


I would just say Carmen was ahead of its time. Why it failed at the Opera Comique.


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## adriesba (Dec 30, 2019)

Rogerx said:


> Do you mean the DVD or the one Maazel made with Moffo and Corelli?


I mean the CD from the movie. The one with Migenes. Not the film itself but the CD.


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## Rogerx (Apr 27, 2018)

adriesba said:


> I mean the CD from the movie. The one with Migenes. Not the film itself but the CD.


Ouch, I don't have the CD only the movie.....


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## adriesba (Dec 30, 2019)

Rogerx said:


> Ouch, I don't have the CD only the movie.....


Well I have the CD but not the movie. :lol:

There are clips of the movie on YouTube. I did some brief comparisons, and I think the CD and Movie dialogue are the same. I just don't know if they made the dialogue for the movie or if they used some version of the actual opera dialogue and maybe I just don't have it in my libretto.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

adriesba said:


> Well I have the CD but not the movie. :lol:
> 
> There are clips of the movie on YouTube. I did some brief comparisons, and I think the CD and Movie dialogue are the same. I just don't know if they made the dialogue for the movie or if they used some version of the actual opera dialogue and maybe I just don't have it in my libretto.


The singing at least would've been dubbed in for the music for the movie


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

The most famous Carmen of all time was the very beautiful Rise Stevens. She sang Carmen more at the Met than any other singer...124 times. That alone should get her considered. I heard a historic opera broadcast years ago on Sirius and she was everything you want: very very sultry, emotional, and with one of the greatest mezzo voices of all time. She is often forgotten today and it was that broadcast got me familiar with her and caused her become my favorite Carmen. Here is a video of her doing the Card Scene. 




 She was movie star gorgeous and the acting and voice are absolutely world class. 



 This is a video of the last scene with Richard Tucker.
Vocally the best Carmen I have heard live was Stephanie Blythe, but many had issues with her appearance. Her singing was so great I didn't care!!!!!!!!!!


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Seattleoperafan said:


> The most famous Carmen of all time was the very beautiful Rise Stevens. She sang Carmen more at the Met than any other singer...124 times. That alone should get her considered. I heard a historic opera broadcast years ago on Sirius and she was everything you want: very very sultry, emotional, and with one of the greatest mezzo voices of all time. She is often forgotten today and it was that broadcast got me familiar with her and caused her become my favorite Carmen. Here is a video of her doing the Card Scene.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Stevens and Tucker really work up a heat in that brief clip. Pity we don't have a film of the whole opera.


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## Fredrikalansson (Jan 29, 2019)

RCA has just reissued the Reiner recording with Stevens, Peerce, Albanese, and Merrill. With recitatives. Can't imagine what Reiner's conducting would be like: lots of splash and colour in the exciting parts, and then delicacy delivered with a sledgehammer?


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## MAS (Apr 15, 2015)

I have the *Callas*, the *Corelli*/Karajan
I had most of the recordings at one time, except the *Solange Michel* and the *Rise Stevens*
I've kept no others and I've no curiosity to hear these. *Callas is Carmen!*. Plus, I prefer the recitatives.


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## Rogerx (Apr 27, 2018)

Fredrikalansson said:


> RCA has just reissued the Reiner recording with Stevens, Peerce, Albanese, and Merrill. With recitatives. Can't imagine what Reiner's conducting would be like: lots of splash and colour in the exciting parts, and then delicacy delivered with a sledgehammer?


Is that after the 2014 release again?


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## MAS (Apr 15, 2015)

deleted post ********


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## MAS (Apr 15, 2015)

deleted post *******


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## Rogerx (Apr 27, 2018)

MAS said:


> deleted post *******


And there was me hoping on a reply from: Fredrikalansson


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## MAS (Apr 15, 2015)

Rogerx said:


> And there was me hoping on a reply from: Fredrikalansson


********* So was I.


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## erki (Feb 17, 2020)

I can't remember which recording has harpsichord intermissions. I used to have this CD but cannot find it any more. I liked it. 
BTW I am not sure it was Carmen after all. Guidance is welcome.

My favourite would be with Agnes Balta but recitals do kill it for me. Out of many I listened I kept Troyanos, Domingo, Te Kanawa, Van Dam with Solti conducting.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

I have a question about Callas' Carmen. She obviously could have been a fabulous Carmen onstage judging from her recording of it, and it was ideal for her range at this stage of her career: my question is what kept her from taking up the role? Unlike many mezzo roles it was a top billing role and she wouldn't have had to play second fiddle to a soprano. Can you hazard a quess?


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Seattleoperafan said:


> I have a question about Callas' Carmen. She obviously could have been a fabulous Carmen onstage judging from her recording of it, and it was ideal for her range at this stage of her career: my question is what kept her from taking up the role? Unlike many mezzo roles it was a top billing role and she wouldn't have had to play second fiddle to a soprano. Can you hazard a quess?


She made various objections at different times. She said she didn't like the character, she disapproved of her. She also told Zeffirelli that she couldn't dance and she didn't like showing her thick ankles.

I think the main reason was probably that, by taking on mezzo-soprano roles, she would be admitting (to herself as much as anyone) that her days as a soprano were over.


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## gellio (Nov 7, 2013)

DavidA said:


> [/B]
> 
> That is just the problem - people cannot seem to 'leave it at that'. I made it very clear that by 'gone' I meant in the quality of the voice - it was no longer the beautiful instrument it was. In Callas' Carmen you have to put up with that fact. Interesting, I have just been through various reviews and they all say pretty much the same. I remember years ago a friend of mine remarked he had been listening to someone singing Carmen on the radio and said, "I really didn't like her voice at all. Then I found out at the end it was Callas!" I don't want to weary this because it was just a very short comment I made which someone has made a meal of. As you say, we must accept that everyone has a right to their opinion!


I don't know if I can agree with you on the her beautiful instrument not being what it was. Yes, we know she wasn't at the height of her powers when she recorded Carmen, but the performance (vocally and dramatically) was astounding.

I was just getting into opera when I first heard Callas, and it was with this recording that I first heard her. I was working in downtown Minneapolis and the Barnes and Noble had a fantastic classical music section. The manager there was so knowledgable in steering me through recordings. I came in one day with the intention of buying Carmen. I had the Solti in my hand (I was familiar with him and some in his cast) and he came up to me, pulled the Callas off the shelf and said, "I will only sell you this one." I hadn't heard of her and insisted I wanted the Solti. He said, "You have got to hear this woman. There has never been, nor will there ever be anything like her." I remember word-for-word what he said. So I took the Callas. I took it home and the first note I heard this woman sing was so utterly shocking. Like nothing I had ever heard before. I was taken totally aback. I didn't know what to think. I was enraptured. To this day I have never heard another singer measure up to Callas as Carmen. She completely embodied the character and her performance is utterly convincing and riveting.

And, reviews mean *****. When I first was getting into the Ring, I got the Solti. Then, over the years, I started buying more and more Rings, and every time I passed over the Karajan. I passed over it because some moron wrote in a review that Karajan had a "chamber music approach" to The Ring, and a bunch of other morons who couldn't think for themselves repeated it over and over and over, and still today morons who can't think for themselves still repeat it, and morons like me listened to those morons for years and years. Imagine my surprise when I finally took the plunge and heard what a wallop Karajan could create. There is nothing chamber about his approach. While his reading my be more beautiful than some, it is powerful, dynamic and full of intensity and drama. Not my favorite Ring, sure, but chamber-like? No.

I read reviews all the time because they are fun to read, but in the end a review is just an opinion and we all know what opinions are like and how we all have one and think everyone else's stinks.

Fun discussion, but I agree the use of the word "gone" in describing her voice was a bit silly.


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