# Your Thoughts on Jimi Hendrix



## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

Mine are that he innovated a lot and inspired many guitarists and continues to even after his death, but overall he was a really sloppy musician that was more of a figure of the hippie culture than a solid musician.

He was genuinely about that peace love and happiness philosophy and he certainly had soul, but he was almost too much soul and not enough technique for my tastes.

Zappa is my favorite improv guitarist of all time for rock; IMO he runs circles around all of them. David Gilmore is my favorite rock guitarist that wrote pre-written solos to songs.


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

I think highly of Hendrix, not Zappa.


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## Kjetil Heggelund (Jan 4, 2016)

Some people I know really dislike technically competent musicians, and think it destroys the soul of the music. My thoughts on Hendrix are that all of his songs are fantastic, but he is not my favorite guitarist. Anyway, his music always sounds the best the original way. He is a true guitar hero and icon for all rock musicians! (I also believe that Zappa is underrated as a guitarist )


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## bharbeke (Mar 4, 2013)

I enjoy "Purple Haze" and "Foxy Lady" as much as the next person, but I think of Hendrix as more of a pioneer/innovator than someone whose music I want to regularly hear, especially since he has so few albums. My guitar player tastes run more to Vince Gill, Eric Clapton, Brad Paisley, Brian Setzer, and Keith Urban.


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

Kjetil Heggelund said:


> Some people I know really dislike technically competent musicians, and think it destroys the soul of the music. My thoughts on Hendrix are that all of his songs are fantastic, but he is not my favorite guitarist. Anyway, his music always sounds the best the original way. He is a true guitar hero and icon for all rock musicians! (I also believe that Zappa is underrated as a guitarist )


I like a nice balance. I'm very big on putting effort into performance.


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

bharbeke said:


> I enjoy "Purple Haze" and "Foxy Lady" as much as the next person, but I think of Hendrix as more of a pioneer/innovator than someone whose music I want to regularly hear, especially since he has so few albums. My guitar player tastes run more to Vince Gill, Eric Clapton, Brad Paisley, Brian Setzer, and Keith Urban.


Your view on Hendrix matches up directly with mine.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

Hendrix was amazing and I have a fist full of his albums on CD but don't listen to them. Much prefer Johnny Winter or Neil Young for heavy guitar to get my guitar fix.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

Hendrix was a solid musician. And he was able to control his sound and playing at ridiculous volume. I love many of his songs. Especially the stuff on Bold As Love, and The Cry Of Love. Neither Hendrix or Zappa were virtuosos but I think Frank had a bit more musical knowledge where Hendrix was an unschooled blues based player. But both had great imagination and creativity.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

One of my favorites is this one:


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## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

The sounds Jimi were able to conjure out of his guitar and through the amp were revolutionary. I don't think he is sloppy at all, I think he intentionally added lots of rubato, but had great technique. Part of the sloppiness may be from the recording with feedback to add a more trippy sound. For me there is no rock guitarist that came close to achieving his spellbinding sound.


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## Strange Magic (Sep 14, 2015)

_Are You Experienced_ is/was one of the great mind-blowing albums in rock history, introducing a voice, a face, a style, a talent that were unprecedented, unique. A black phenom guitarist-songwriter-singer fronting a trio with two white Englishmen and singing about seeing the sun rise from the bottom of the sea. Amazing.


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## EddieRUKiddingVarese (Jan 8, 2013)

Love Hendrix and love Zappa, both great guitarists in their own ways


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## San Antone (Feb 15, 2018)

Everyone agrees on his guitar playing, but he was also a creative songwriter and a unique singer. One of a kind. It is tragic that his drug use truncated his life. The potential for exponential growth and exciting collaborations was there and it would have been a real treat to have seen where he might have gone.


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## Bluecrab (Jun 24, 2014)

Captainnumber36 said:


> ...overall he was a really sloppy musician...


That's a pretty bold statement. Would you care to post some examples of his "sloppy" playing?


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## Bluecrab (Jun 24, 2014)

San Antone said:


> It is tragic that his drug use truncated his life. The potential for exponential growth and exciting collaborations was there and it would have been a real treat to have seen where he might have gone.


Very true. I also think the same thing about Duane Allman. Of course, in his case it was a motorcycle rather than drugs (directly, at least) that did him in, but we're left with the same void.

Just think... when Hendrix died, basically the only electronics available to him were the fuzzbox and the wawa pedal. Imagine what he could have sounded like if he had had all of the devices that guitarists like Robert Fripp and Steve Vai use today.


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## Guest (Jun 29, 2018)

i think he was an amazing guitarst. That is my thought.


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## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

Jimi Hendrix still has the power to amaze me even after all these years. The only post-Hendrix guitarist I felt equally excited about on first listen was Eddie Van Halen back in 1978, but his box-of-tricks style has not aged that well, especially as so many metal guitarists in the 1980s imitated him and painted it all into a corner. Hendrix's music may be about 50 years old but it contains so much texture, vitality and breath-taking brilliance that not even the passing of half a century can dull its impact.


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

Bluecrab said:


> That's a pretty bold statement. Would you care to post some examples of his "sloppy" playing?


I suppose lose is a better term.


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## San Antone (Feb 15, 2018)

Bluecrab said:


> Very true. *I also think the same thing about Duane Allman.* Of course, in his case it was a motorcycle rather than drugs (directly, at least) that did him in, but we're left with the same void.


Duane Allman, Hendrix, Clapton - the three greatest, imo.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

San Antone said:


> Duane Allman, Hendrix, Clapton - the three greatest, imo.


Clapton never inspired me after 1970. Cream, Blind Faith, and Derek & The Dominoes is it!


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## San Antone (Feb 15, 2018)

starthrower said:


> Clapton never inspired me after 1970. Cream, Blind Faith, and Derek & The Dominoes is it!


I agree that his early stuff is stellar. But also his later recordings are good. I especially like his focus on the blues in several of his more recent recordings. No doubt about it, Clapton is part of the guitarist pantheon.


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## Casebearer (Jan 19, 2016)

I love both Zappa and Hendrix (and many others). It's not about the technique, it's about the music's impact. Hendrix' impact on me and the world was enormous. No one like him in that respect.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

Casebearer said:


> I love both Zappa and Hendrix (and many others). It's not about the technique, it's about the music's impact. Hendrix' impact on me and the world was enormous. No one like him in that respect.


He stands alone, a towering giant. Nobody has been able to touch him.


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

Captainnumber36 said:


> Mine are that he innovated a lot and inspired many guitarists and continues to even after his death, but overall he was a really sloppy musician that was more of a figure of the hippie culture than a solid musician.
> 
> He was genuinely about that peace love and happiness philosophy and he certainly had soul, but he was almost too much soul and not enough technique for my tastes.
> 
> Zappa is my favorite improv guitarist of all time for rock; IMO he runs circles around all of them. David Gilmore is my favorite rock guitarist that wrote pre-written solos to songs.


Hendrix could be sloppy live, partly because he had no inhibitions about exploring new ideas on stage. But he was a solid musician and played all of his composed and prepared material well.

Zappa was a slob when he improvised, although much of what got onto records was brilliant. When he had a second guitarist in the band, like Vai or Belew, he should have let them solo more since they were better players and more consistent in their improvisations. He also tended to get lost metrically and his bass players had to work to keep things together behind him (watch Patrick O'Hearn compensating and more or less conducting on "City of Tiny Lights," on the Dub Room Special DVD). And of course soloing over a repeated riff or progression is easy compared to being a good group improvisor like Holdsworth, Frith or Fripp.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

I've never heard Holdsworth do any group improv. Zappa played long solos and not every bar of music he played was brilliant, but that's what editing is for. As great as Below and Vai are, I'd still rather listen to Frank for extended soloing. Vai is too flashy. Belew is great as an all around ensemble player and soloist but I like Zappa's phrasing which sounds more unique to my ears.


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## Norman Gunston (Apr 21, 2018)

EdwardBast said:


> Hendrix could be sloppy live, partly because he had no inhibitions about exploring new ideas on stage. But he was a solid musician and played all of his composed and prepared material well.
> 
> Zappa was a slob when he improvised, although much of what got onto records was brilliant. When he had a second guitarist in the band, like Vai or Belew, he should have let them solo more since they were better players and more consistent in their improvisations. He also tended to get lost metrically and his bass players had to work to keep things together behind him (watch Patrick O'Hearn compensating and more or less conducting on "City of Tiny Lights," on the Dub Room Special DVD). And of course soloing over a repeated riff or progression is easy compared to being a good group improvisor like Holdsworth, Frith or Fripp.


You obviously have not listened to Zappa 72 thru to 75, particularly his Jazz sets.
While Vai or Belew both great neither was in a Zaooa band for long periods (belew 12 months or less)


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## ldiat (Jan 27, 2016)

San Antone said:


> Duane Allman, Hendrix, Clapton - the three greatest, imo.


triple like with 5 stars YES


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## ldiat (Jan 27, 2016)

starthrower said:


> Clapton never inspired me after 1970. Cream, Blind Faith, and Derek & The Dominoes is it!


yes but a there are good ones after.. wonderful tonight is one. allman and clapton worked on the derek lp. little wing on the album was a tribute to hendrix. and hendrix wrote most of his works. all across the watch tower was written by "whats his name" and hey joe was written by someone else i do think. listen to hey joe and one really gets his playing.


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## Room2201974 (Jan 23, 2018)

San Antone said:


> Duane Allman, Hendrix, Clapton - the three greatest, imo.


I used to think that Duane was the best slide player I had ever heard. He was the king of slide guitar, but unfortunately, he's no longer around to defend his crown. Now I think that this guy is the king of slide.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

Room2201974 said:


> I used to think that Duane was the best slide player I had ever heard. He was the king of slide guitar, but unfortunately, he's no longer around to defend his crown. Now I think that this guy is the king of slide.


I was going to mention Derek. Definitely a great guitarist. But for slide I am sticking with Johnny Winter.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

As for Hendrix. What did other guitarist have to say about him?

Here is an article with dozens of great guitarists' thoughts on Jimi.


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## Guest (Jul 2, 2018)

Fritz Kobus said:


> As for Hendrix. What did other guitarist have to say about him?
> 
> Here is an article with dozens of great guitarists' thoughts on Jimi.


I think this says the most:

Jeff Beck, after hearing Hendrix -
"I had to think long and hard about what I did next."


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

Here is Jimi Hendrix and Johnny Winter jamming together at the scene.









That is Tommy Shannon's bass guitar Jimi is playing. Tommy said:



> Well, at the time I was playing with Johnny Winter and I was living in New York and there was this club called Steve Paul's Scene. And we'd go there every night and there would be a jam session - there would be all these people there like Led Zeppelin, Hendrix, Janis Joplin, Jerry Lee Lewis, just all kinds of people and there would be jamming going on. And I was playing one night and he [Jimi] came up and asked if he could play [my] bass. I went, `Sure'. And he really surprised me `cause he just turned it upside down and just played the **** out of it! He played with a pick and played the bass like a bass player would, not like a guitar player who just picked up a bass. He was a really good bass player, funky and really solid.


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## ldiat (Jan 27, 2016)

Room2201974 said:


> I used to think that Duane was the best slide player I had ever heard. He was the king of slide guitar, but unfortunately, he's no longer around to defend his crown. Now I think that this guy is the king of slide.


he is Butch Trucks nephew from the allman bros band. played with them (but you knew that)


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

my idea on Hendrix is that he's a bit overrated but he was still a great guitarist.
Why overrated? Only because he seems to be considered like the ultimate god of the instrument, and I don't think it's true. There are many guitarists who were as original as he was, better composers than him and that are often almost unknown. 
That said, he was certainly an original who changed the history of rock music. Not because he was the first to use wah, feedback, distortion or other effects but because he was the one who mixed those things transforming the idea of the electric guitar. He was also a great rhythm guitarist and for a guy who didn't read music, he made also some interesting tunes like Manic depression, the wind cries Mary, Little wing etc. Not that his harmonic vocabulary was outstanding, he was far from have the knowledge of the jazz guitarists of the period, but certainly more interesting than a lot of rock guitarists of the period.
In any case the idea that he was sloppy does not have a lot of sense to me. It's actually a bit ridiculous: Hendrix was a guy who even if he was labeled as a rock musician was still a blues guitarist, and blues is about expressivity, not about perfection. He was trying to make the instrument sound like an animal, like bombs, he wasn't Segovia looking for a pure tone.

Another thing I'd like to mention is that he was truly humble and that he listened to a lot of great guitarists: the fact that he was a huge fan of the AMAZING Billy Butler (check him out to know where he took the idea for the "hendrix chord"*) says a lot about his tastes.



(*obviously even Butler wasn't certainly the first to use the 7#9 chord, but I think that he was him who inspired Hendrix for it)


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## Bluecrab (Jun 24, 2014)

norman bates said:


> He was also a great rhythm guitarist...


Thank you for pointing that out. I was about to say that myself... in fact, I can't remember ever hearing a better rhythm guitarist, with the possible exception of Leo Nocentelli of the Meters. If you want to hear a great example of Hendrix's rhythm guitar skills, just listen to _Come On (Let the Good Times Roll)_ on _Electric Ladyland_. If you can sit still through that, you'd probably better call 911.



norman bates said:


> In any case the idea that he was sloppy does not have a lot of sense to me. It's actually a bit ridiculous...


The idea doesn't make any sense to you because, as you note, it is indeed ridiculous.


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## Room2201974 (Jan 23, 2018)

Jimi didn't just play the guitar, he made love to it; the rock version of Segovia in that regard! And the guitar apparently loved him back! That's my impression. There are some guitarists whose playing makes me feel that the love making is not consensual!


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## Strange Magic (Sep 14, 2015)

Room2201974 said:


> Jimi didn't just play the guitar, he made love to it; the rock version of Segovia in that regard! And the guitar apparently loved him back! That's my impression. There are some guitarists whose playing makes me feel that the love making is not consensual!


Stevie Ray Vaughan, a Jimi disciple, also similarly loved and was loved by his instrument.


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## EddieRUKiddingVarese (Jan 8, 2013)

Fritz Kobus said:


> Here is Jimi Hendrix and Johnny Winter jamming together at the scene.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


JImi was the best at Heavy Rock Blues guitar simple..............


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

EddieRUKiddingVarese said:


> JImi was the best at Heavy Rock Blues guitar simple..............


That's why I love this compilation album:


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## Simon Moon (Oct 10, 2013)

Hendrix was an innovator that I believe changed rock guitar playing.

As an actual musician, he was just okay. Yes, he was sloppy. And for the most part, he was just playing standard blues licks.

I don't think I'd describe Zappa as sloppy, per se, but more as undisciplined. And he was a much more interesting player than Hendrix. At the height of his creativity, he rarely played standard blues rifs.

David Gimour is another player, who is undeserving of his acclaim (IMO). I just never got it. Standard pentatonic blues stuff.



> Some people I know really dislike technically competent musicians, and think it destroys the soul of the music.


I think this is BS.

Just because a player doesn't hold and bend a lot of notes, or close their eyes with their head held skyward while playing, doesn't mean they are playing without soul. If they are playing faster than some arbitrary speed limit, does that mean they are not playing with soul?

Now, there are plenty of musicians whose playing *instills* emotion in _me_ through their playing. Is that an example of soul?

Alan Holdsworth, for example, would hardly be described as a player with 'soul', (by those that describe Hendrix, Gilmour, Clapton, et al, as having soul), but his playing instills plenty of emotion in me.


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## Bluecrab (Jun 24, 2014)

Simon Moon said:


> Yes, he was sloppy.


What do you mean by _sloppy_? That he was out of tune? That he was out of time? That he was off key?

Please post for us some examples of Hendrix's playing that you consider "sloppy."


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

Simon Moon said:


> Just because a player doesn't hold and bend a lot of notes, or close their eyes with their head held skyward while playing, doesn't mean they are playing without soul. If they are playing faster than some arbitrary speed limit, does that mean they are not playing with soul?
> 
> Now, there are plenty of musicians whose playing *instills* emotion in _me_ through their playing. Is that an example of soul?
> 
> Alan Holdsworth, for example, would hardly be described as a player with 'soul', (by those that describe Hendrix, Gilmour, Clapton, et al, as having soul), but his playing instills plenty of emotion in me.


I like Gilmour in the context of PF. He plays melody and has good tone. But I don't think his own music is very interesting. I have that old solo album from '78 and it sounds rather pedestrian.

Holdsworth was very soulful to my ears. Same with Metheny, Scofield, Larry Carlton, Steve Morse, and other more accomplished players. And I happen to think Mike Keneally is fantastic as a guitarist, pianist, and composer. I wish more people would give him a listen. Vai and Satriani are more famous, but I'll take Keneally's music. It's much more interesting to my ears. And Mike's a great songwriter.


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

Simon Moon said:


> Hendrix was an innovator that I believe changed rock guitar playing.
> 
> As an actual musician, he was just okay. Yes, he was sloppy. And for the most part, he was just playing standard blues licks.
> 
> ...


Soul is a subjective evaluation anyways!


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

Simon Moon said:


> Yes, he was sloppy.


but that's not a problem. I mean, I'd like to know what anybody who says something like that think of all the blues masters of the past, from Son House to Skip James to Robert Pete Williams, Pat Hare, Lightning Hopkins etc. A bit or even a lot of dirt in blues is not only perfectly acceptable but even something that adds character to the music. If someone thinks that that is a flaw , well that person is just showing that he doesn't understand a lot about the genre.


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## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

If I'm interpreting sloppiness correctly (I'm assuming it means looseness of some kind) then Paul Kossoff could be as sloppy as they come, but that helped to make Free the band they were. If I want sanitised precision in blues rock (which I don't) I'd listen to 80s stuff by the likes of Robert Cray and Donald Kinsey.


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

norman bates said:


> but that's not a problem. I mean, I'd like to know what anybody who says something like that think of all the blues masters of the past, from Son House to Skip James to Robert Pete Williams, Pat Hare, Lightning Hopkins etc. A bit or even a lot of dirt in blues is not only perfectly acceptable but even something that adds character to the music. If someone thinks that that is a flaw , well that person is just showing that he doesn't understand a lot about the genre.


Or an understanding but strong dislike for it.


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

Captainnumber36 said:


> Or an understanding but strong dislike for it.


I'm not so sure that someone who doesn't have a taste for imperfection could really appreciate or understand blues.
I see that the spirit of "sloppiness" (in the blues, but also in a lot of rock and jazz) as something very similar to the wabi sabi
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wabi-sabi


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## Strange Magic (Sep 14, 2015)

norman bates said:


> I'm not so sure that someone who doesn't have a taste for imperfection could really appreciate or understand blues.
> I see that the spirit of "sloppiness" (in the blues, but also in a lot of rock and jazz) as something very similar to the wabi sabi
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wabi-sabi


The concept applies with exceptional validity to _cante flamenco_, a close relative of The Blues.


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## chill782002 (Jan 12, 2017)

Hendrix is an interesting case and a bit of a one-off. Although undoubtedly a hugely gifted guitarist, he could be sloppy on occasion in a live context (although never in a studio context). I suspect that this was more due to his mood at the time rather than other factors. It certainly couldn't have been technical ability. 

By comparison, live recordings of Clapton made during the period that Hendrix was alive show that he pretty much always turned in a tight performance with great attention given to the architecture of his solos. However, despite that, I personally would take Hendrix on a night when he was "on" over any Clapton performance, even if Eric was less erratic as a whole. In addition, Hendrix's apparent ability to control guitar feedback as a musical device was unique and has never been repeated. Hendrix was also a great songwriter (music and lyrics) and a pretty good singer. Very few guitarists have exhibited both these talents in addition to being excellent at their chosen instrument.

One of the all time greats and it would have been fascinating to see what he might have achieved had he lived longer.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

chill782002 said:


> Hendrix is an interesting case and a bit of a one-off. Although undoubtedly a hugely gifted guitarist, he could be sloppy on occasion in a live context (although never in a studio context). *I suspect that this was more due to his mood at the time* rather than other factors. It certainly couldn't have been technical ability.


Or too high on drugs.


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## chill782002 (Jan 12, 2017)

Possibly, like the infamous final Band of Gypsys appearance at Madison Square Garden in January 1970 where Hendrix was obviously too wasted to carry on playing and the set was terminated after two songs (although there are rumours that he was spiked before the show). However, Clapton and other guitarists of the period weren't exactly strangers to heavy drug use either.


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## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

norman bates said:


> I'm not so sure that someone who doesn't have a taste for imperfection could really appreciate or understand blues.
> I see that the spirit of "sloppiness" (in the blues, but also in a lot of rock and jazz) as something very similar to the wabi sabi
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wabi-sabi


I tend to agree with this. Son House's technique in the early 60's deterioted a bit since the 40's, but his singing and the music had more impact. For great technique, I don't listen to popular music anyway. There is more than enough to go around in Classical and Jazz.


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## ldiat (Jan 27, 2016)

ok well stated by all but a radio DJ stated on air "what if jimmy page passed in stead of jimie hendrix"? would all back in the days be more enamored with pages music and work over hendrix?? 
just asking..


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

norman bates said:


> I'm not so sure that someone who doesn't have a taste for imperfection could really appreciate or understand blues.
> I see that the spirit of "sloppiness" (in the blues, but also in a lot of rock and jazz) as something very similar to the wabi sabi
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wabi-sabi


I completely understand why someone could have a flair for imperfection; it displays a human side to the artist, and as you said, can show character. It's kind of like an old instrument that has been beat up over the years, all those scars have a meaning and a story to them.

I for one do not have a taste for this aesthetic though!


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

Phil loves classical said:


> I tend to agree with this. Son House's technique in the early 60's deterioted a bit since the 40's, but his singing and the music had more impact. For great technique, I don't listen to popular music anyway. There is more than enough to go around in Classical and Jazz.


I thought you were big on The Beatles?


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## Strange Magic (Sep 14, 2015)

ldiat said:


> ok well stated by all but a radio DJ stated on air "what if jimmy page passed in stead of jimie hendrix"? would all back in the days be more enamored with pages music and work over hendrix??
> just asking..


I would say Yes and No. They would rightfully laud Page for creating and maintaining one of the Titan groups in Rock history, and for the spate of great songs he cowrote and executed with Zep. But while Page's guitar work was fine, Hendrix was absolutely _sui generis_, unprecedented, utterly unpredictable at the time. Possibly several Pages. Only one Jimi.


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

Captainnumber36 said:


> I completely understand why someone could have a flair for imperfection; it displays a human side to the artist, and as you said, can show character. It's kind of like an old instrument that has been beat up over the years, all those scars have a meaning and a story to them.
> 
> I for one do not have a taste for this aesthetic though!


it's not just a fact of humanity, it's also the fact that it adds complexity. it's like comparing a smooth marble column with a oak tree. It's possible to find beauty in both things, but it's a different kind of beauty. The tree isn't smooth, has a lot of "imperfections" but it's still beautiful and has a lot of complexity.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

Captainnumber36 said:


> I for one do not have a taste for this aesthetic though!


I do. I don't have much taste for straight ahead jazz or classical guitar because it's so proper and polite. Virtuosity is fine as long as it's accompanied by some personality and vision. And chance taking. And in rock or pop music it's not a priority.

I can listen to Delta blues guitar playing all day. Those old cats might be slightly out of tune or playing on cheap guitars, but the music has such a validity and life force that I find irresistible. Son House plays and sings like his life depended on it.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

elgars ghost said:


> If I want sanitised precision in blues rock (which I don't) I'd listen to 80s stuff by the likes of Robert Cray and Donald Kinsey.


I'll take those cats over all of the highly promoted suburban white boys. Robert Cray is a great player and singer with an instantly recognizable guitar sound. Others that get ignored in favor of generic white boys are James Armstrong, Larry Garner, Mem Shannon, Lucky Peterson, and Larry McCray. All are well rounded players, vocalists, and songwriters.


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## Guest (Jul 6, 2018)

Fritz Kobus said:


> One of my favorites is this one:


The thing to remember about this one is that it was a one-off. When Jimi was starting out, he met this exec named Ed Chalpin who pulled some strings for him. In return, Jimi had to sign a contract promising to record an album of free and new music whenever Chalpin called for it. Hendrix signed the contract. After making it big, Chalpin showed up with the contract telling Jimi he owed him an album of free music--new songs. Having no way out of the contract, Jimi and Billy Cox talked Buddy Miles into joining because Buddy had written some new songs and Jimi didn't want to give Chalpin too many of his own new songs. Buddy agreed. So they did a live show where they played these five new songs. The rest of the show were all previously released material. You can find the rest of the show on other releases. It was so one-off that at one point there's a bit of pause between songs and then Jimi tells the audience "We're trying to figure out what else to play."

But Chalpin took the five new songs for his album of free material releasing it as Band of Gypsies. Since he could not make any profit from it, Hendrix did everything in his power to destroy sales telling fans in interviews that the album sucked, it was badly recorded, just a contractual obligation, it was just crap jamming without any real inspiration, a total rip-off--don't buy it. But radio stations played it, in spite being recorded on a single cheap tape machine, it was remarkably good sounding. Fans bought it anyway and it became a legend.


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## Strange Magic (Sep 14, 2015)

^^^^It is a wonderful album!


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## Guest (Jul 6, 2018)

Phil loves classical said:


> The sounds Jimi were able to conjure out of his guitar and through the amp were revolutionary. I don't think he is sloppy at all, I think he intentionally added lots of rubato, but had great technique. Part of the sloppiness may be from the recording with feedback to add a more trippy sound. For me there is no rock guitarist that came close to achieving his spellbinding sound.


Well, I'm going to say Fripp is up there. I love that Frippertronic sound. No mistaking it. Although Fripp seems to play electric exclusively now, if you listen to the early Crimson stuff including alternate takes, his acoustic guitar work was impeccable. The man knows his way around the guitar. I'd say technically and creatively, Fripp is without peer.


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## Guest (Jul 6, 2018)

The thing to keep in mind about Hendrix is that people talk about the great body of work he left behind and--while this is true--he was only starting to figure out who he was and what he was here to do. He and Miles Davis were hanging together quite a bit about a year before his death. Jimi was also talking with Keith Emerson and Greg Lake about forming a band. He was talking with Noel Redding about doing some new stuff that would be total departure from the Experience-type stuff. He wanted to get into the Latin thing with conga-players and a horn section. Jimi was really starting to blossom when he died and that is the real tragedy. We were denied the opportunity to watch him evolve from a blues musician to a jazzman and a folk musician and fusion player and a roots player. That's the real shame.


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## Ludwig Von Chumpsky (Apr 19, 2018)

I like Jimi Hendrix alot, everything about his playing and singing. But there's another guitar player I didn't see mentioned in this thread. And Jimi said of this player, when he heard him from backstage at a concert, that this other guy was better than himself. That's saying something. And the better player was Terry Kath from Chicago. Kath was far better than Jimi in every regard, including the pyrotechnics. Listen to Free Form Guitar on Chicago Transit Authority. THAT SAID, I doubt either Jimi and Terry, like most players of any instrument at that level, would care one way or the other about who was best, and would rather just jam away with each other on stage.


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

norman bates said:


> it's not just a fact of humanity, it's also the fact that it adds complexity. it's like comparing a smooth marble column with a oak tree. It's possible to find beauty in both things, but it's a different kind of beauty. The tree isn't smooth, has a lot of "imperfections" but it's still beautiful and has a lot of complexity.


It's emotionally rich and complex, I'll agree with that. I just prefer my music on point and rehearsed! I love creativity and unusual sounds, but I have little patience for poorly executed live performances. However, if they get it right on the album, I'll just listen to that.


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

Captainnumber36 said:


> It's emotionally rich and complex, I'll agree with that. I just prefer my music on point and rehearsed! I love creativity and unusual sounds, but I have little patience for poorly executed live performances. However, if they get it right on the album, I'll just listen to that.


Sure, I don't like poorly executed performances either, but I have the impression that when people talk about sloppiness about Hendrix they are talking in general about his playing and his deliberate artistic choice that includes feedback, noises and a dirty sound.
It's like critizing this as "poorly executed" (and it's not, it's an artistic choice, Goya was able to paint also in much more traditional manner)










because it's not painted like this









and there are persons who think that even with a heavy distortion the correct way to use it is playing as smooth as possible. They see the distortion just as a way to sustain the sound. The idea to use distortion also because the noises it produce it's not taken in consideration.


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

norman bates said:


> Sure, I don't like poorly executed performances either, but I have the impression that when people talk about sloppiness about Hendrix they are talking in general about his playing and his deliberate artistic choice that includes feedback, noises and a dirty sound.
> It's like critizing this as "poorly executed" (and it's not, it's an artistic choice, Goya was able to paint also in much more traditional manner)
> 
> 
> ...


Ok, a better way to phrase it is I don't enjoy Hendrix artistic choices. It's too rock and roll for me!


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

I enjoy both paintings you posted above, btw.


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## Merl (Jul 28, 2016)

Hendrix was an amazing guitarist. Listen to his solos on Hendrix in the West (the one on Little Wing sends shivers down my spine). If he was sloppy then I want to be that sloppy. I love many of the guitarists mentioned here but Hendrix influenced all of them. Robin Trower, Rory Gallagher, Stevie Ray Vaughan and even Johnny Winter owe him a debt of gratitude for what he brought to guitar playing. His material wasn't always wonderful but boy could he play!


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## Simon Moon (Oct 10, 2013)

elgars ghost said:


> If I'm interpreting sloppiness correctly (I'm assuming it means looseness of some kind) then Paul Kossoff could be as sloppy as they come, but that helped to make Free the band they were. If I want sanitised precision in blues rock (which I don't) I'd listen to 80s stuff by the likes of Robert Cray and Donald Kinsey.


My problem is, I do not like any type or genre of music that has room in it for sloppy musicianship. I am just unable to get past it.

I used to play drums at a decent rock level of proficiency. Why would I want to listen to music or musicians at the same level of proficiency as I once had?

People make fun of famous actors that do not have good acting chops, but musicians with sloppy chops are lauded. I just don't get it.


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## Simon Moon (Oct 10, 2013)

norman bates said:


> Sure, I don't like poorly executed performances either, but I have the impression that when people talk about sloppiness about Hendrix they are talking in general about his playing and his deliberate artistic choice that includes feedback, noises and a dirty sound.


As I said in my first post, I believe Hendrix' experimentation changed rock guitar playing. I give him much kudos for pushing boundaries.

My criticism of him, is based solely for his playing, minus his incredible innovations.



> It's like critizing this as "poorly executed" (and it's not, it's an artistic choice, Goya was able to paint also in much more traditional manner)


Goya's artistic choice, came from the firm basis of massive levels of proper technique.

Hendix had very little technique outside the blues.


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

Simon Moon said:


> As I said in my first post, I believe Hendrix' experimentation changed rock guitar playing. I give him much kudos for pushing boundaries.
> 
> My criticism of him, is based solely for his playing, minus his incredible innovations.
> 
> ...


 I don't think that he had so little technique. Maybe not a virtuoso for the extremely high standards of today, but he certainly knew how to play. But onestly technique in itself doesn't mean anything. Thelonious Monk, Miles Davis, Pee Wee Russell or Duke Ellington weren't virtuosos either (and actually unlike Hendrix who has often been celebrated also for his technique, they were often criticized for that), does that make them inferior musicians? 
What I think it's important is musicianship, and Hendrix did interesting things. A rhyhtm part like manic depression is very interesting. The chordal phrasing of Little wing too. 
Those are the things that make him an interesting musician. And he didn't play those things because he was limited, but because he wanted to play like that.


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

I really don't know (or care much) about guitar technique. And I don't care much about hippy dreams and thinking (never did). But there is no doubt in my mind that Hendrix was a great creative musician. Yes, he could be sloppy - and because he died so early after having produced so little we have a lot of his more sloppy (and very stoned) moments on records (but even they have great stuff, too) - but he produced enough that was seminal and continues to reward listeners (even those who know every note). Electric Ladyland one of the greatest albums of its time ... a big eclectic collection that contains many classics and lots of interesting byroads and yet holds together really well. Just before the end he was getting tighter and more disciplined than ever before - you can hear it in songs like Earth Blues, Dolly Dagger, Room Full of Mirrors, Pali Gap - and his death was all the more a tragedy for us because of this. His influence extended to many of the leading jazz musicians of his day (Miles, Herbie Hancock etc).

Comparisons with the great Zappa are not helpful. They did very different things. Perhaps Zappa was more in tune with the current developments in avant garde classical music while the Hendrix world was more about improvisation?


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

Simon Moon said:


> Hendix had very little technique outside the blues.


Even on a classical forum we should not forget that the blues was a very big world indeed and included most jazz at that time as well as nearly all rock music. For decades it had been, along with gospel, the music of black America and by the late 50s it was influencing most American white "popular music" as well (rock'n'roll, country etc). By the 60s it also had a very strong hold on British popular music. But it never got to influence music in the classical tradition so much. It just didn't fit with it very well. Hendrix improvisations incorporated feedback and "dirty sounds" but at his best these were fully integrated into what he was doing with notes, rhythms etc. The innovation of his improvisation was not only about these additions. But then I don't really know what "technique" means in these contexts - some powerful, innovative and distinctive blues was technically very weak.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

Enthusiast said:


> Comparisons with the great Zappa are not helpful. They did very different things. Perhaps Zappa was more in tune with the current developments in avant garde classical music while the Hendrix world was more about improvisation?


They were both blues based guitarists. But Zappa took a different approach in his improvisations. He played melody lines, not just blues licks. And in addition to the blues influence there are other flavors in his sound that you don't hear in most rock guitarists. The eastern influences in his phrasing and rhythmic permutations. Hendrix was closer to the blues in most instances than Zappa. Although Frank wrote some blues based tunes like Cosmik Debris among others. I don't think of Hendrix as an improviser. He was a songwriter and a rock guitarist that played bluesy solos. And he took full advantage of the sonic possibilities newly available to musicians at the time, as did Zappa.

If Hendrix had lived longer, I believe he would have broken away from the rock trio format and done other things.


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

starthrower said:


> They were both blues based guitarists. But Zappa took a different approach in his improvisations. He played melody lines, not just blues licks. And in addition to the blues influence there are other flavors in his sound that you don't hear in most rock guitarists. The eastern influences in his phrasing and rhythmic permutations. Hendrix was closer to the blues in most instances than Zappa. Although Frank wrote some blues based tunes like Cosmik Debris among others. I don't think of Hendrix as an improviser. He was a songwriter and a rock guitarist that played bluesy solos. And he took full advantage of the sonic possibilities newly available to musicians at the time, as did Zappa.
> 
> If Hendrix had lived longer, I believe he would have broken away from the rock trio format and done other things.


I get you on Zappa and on Hendrix as essentially a blues artist. But I feel you have missed something if you think Hendrix was a song writer rather than an improviser. I feel almost exactly the opposite: that his song writing was OK but that his improvisation was inspired! I don't like to think what he might have become. I doubt he would have stood still but fame and adulation can wreck musician's potential. Ah well.


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## San Antone (Feb 15, 2018)

Not a fan of Zappa. His music, to me, is superficially interesting but I tire of it easily. His guitar playing is boringly "white" sounding, to me. None of the hyper-technique guys, Holdsworth, et al do anything other than bore me.

I wrote earlier that Allman, Hendrix and Clapton are my top three. I'll add Jeff Beck to those three, but he sometimes gets too involved in gadgetry.

Acoustic players, Norman Blake, Tony Rice and John Fahey are interesting. Blues guys, Jimmy Reed, Albert King, both Vaughan brothers.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

San Antone said:


> Not a fan of Zappa. His music, to me, is superficially interesting but I tire of it easily. His guitar playing is boringly "white" sounding, to me. None of the hyper-technique guys, Holdsworth, et al do anything other than bore me.


Getting into Holdsworth can take some time, but if you give your brain a chance to start hearing the the chord melodies you'll discover how beautiful they are. Nobody played chords on guitar like Allan.

I suppose the lyrics can be a distraction with Zappa, but time spent listening to dozens of his albums reveals many, many beautiful melodies with a lot of depth. I suppose it's in the ear of the behearer, but his guitar playing never sounded white to me. His major influences are black guitar players and doo-*** groups. And he wrote a ton of funky rhythms and grooves for his tunes.

And to answer the Enthusiast, I still think Hendrix was more than an ok songwriter. Castles Made Of Sand, Little Wing, Drifting, The Wind Cries Mary are some of my favorites. Give me some examples of his best improvisations and I will listen to them.


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## tdc (Jan 17, 2011)

I'm a great fan of Hendrix, I think he was one of the best rock artists of all time. To me in music 'feel' is more important than technical perfection or complexity. The heart is more powerful than the intellect. I liken it to looking at an impressionistic painting - the details can become blurry, but if one is not hyper focused on unimportant minute details, the 'feel' or 'essence' of the work is communicated with no loss of potency. The mind is capable of filling in details that might be missed. If one is too caught up in thinking about how advanced, difficult to play, or technically perfect a performance is, I feel they are probably missing the point of the music.

Sometimes for the same reason I will prefer an instrumental interpretation by an amateur or lesser player if I feel they are able to bring out more from the piece by their use of phrasing, tempo, etc. An example of this is Ravel's own interpretation of Sad Birds from Miroirs. I prefer this to many of the other versions I've heard by more accomplished pianists because he just evokes a certain mood from the piece.

Jimmy Page is an example in rock. Fairly sloppy musician but I think he could typically bring more expressivity in a guitar solo using mostly blues based riffs than most other more skilled and technically advanced rock musicians.



Strange Magic said:


> I would say Yes and No. They would rightfully laud Page for creating and maintaining one of the Titan groups in Rock history, and for the spate of great songs he cowrote and executed with Zep. But while Page's guitar work was fine, Hendrix was absolutely _sui generis_, unprecedented, utterly unpredictable at the time. Possibly several Pages. Only one Jimi.


Jimi was the more innovative and advanced player, however no one had quite the same 'feel' or vibrato as Page. To say that there could possibly be "several Pages" is selling him short imo. There will never be another Page.


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## Strange Magic (Sep 14, 2015)

^^^^While I greatly appreciate Page's guitar work, I still maintain that, compared to Hendrix's guitar work, there were/are surely others whose sound, while different, would be comparable to Page. But taken as a total package--guitarist, lyricist, "orchestrator", and general guiding genius and dynamo of an exceptional rock ensemble, there was only one Jimmy Page.


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## Norman Gunston (Apr 21, 2018)

Strange Magic said:


> ^^^^While I greatly appreciate Page's guitar work, I still maintain that, compared to Hendrix's guitar work, there were/are surely others whose sound, while different, would be comparable to Page. But taken as a total package--guitarist, lyricist, "orchestrator", and general guiding genius and dynamo of an exceptional rock ensemble, there was only one Jimmy Page.


I would delete a few of those talents from jimmys list namely lyricist and orchestrator Paul Jones did that and Jimmy ripped off the lyrics and melodies


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## Guest (Jul 9, 2018)

Allow a fellow Canadian to have the final word, eh?











And give a moment's thought to what it means that they asked Neil Young to be the one to induct the Jimi Hendrix Experience into the Hall of Fame...


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## haydnguy (Oct 13, 2008)

I liked Hendrix back in the day and thought he was top notch. I liked 'Are You Experienced?' This is me, but frankly I got burned out of the guitar in general after listening to it for so many decades. I guess I thought I'd listen to as far as I could and had my personal "Second Viennese School" by coming to Classical Music.

I liked the regulars: Hendrix, Vaughn, Jeff Beck, Clapton ( a little less ), etc. But I'm glad I switched to classical. I wish I had switched when I was in my early 30's.


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## Strange Magic (Sep 14, 2015)

Norman Gunston said:


> I would delete a few of those talents from jimmys list namely lyricist and orchestrator Paul Jones did that and Jimmy ripped off the lyrics and melodies


We've discussed this "ripping off" of others' work by Page and Zep on a number of occasions. I forget the exact source and quote, but it was to the effect that mediocre artists borrow from the work of others but great artists steal outright. I hold (again) that Page et al stole the works of others and then transformed them into magical things of a different order of magnitude that brought an audience and an illumination to those works that they never would have otherwise received. To have been ripped off by Led Zeppelin will be seen to have been a rare gift indeed. I've compared it in result if not in magnitude with the wholesale ripping off that Herman Melville did in putting together _Moby Dick_.


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## Guest (Jul 10, 2018)

EdwardBast said:


> ... of course soloing over a repeated riff or progression is easy compared to being a good group improvisor like Holdsworth, Frith or Fripp.





starthrower said:


> I've never heard Holdsworth do any group improv.


Genuinely not my intention to go OT but I found these to be interesting and thought that others might also - I don't have the expertise to do anything other than provide the links and let others weigh in -

"Secret techniques to play like Allan Holdsworth."






"Allan Holdsworth talks about scales"






"Forever Untill Sunday" - Bill Bruford / Allan Holdsworth / Jeff Berlin / Dave Stewart






"Sample & Hold" - Bill Bruford / Allan Holdsworth / Jeff Berlin / Dave Stewart


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

Those are composed pieces. Not group improvisations.


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## Guest (Jul 10, 2018)

starthrower said:


> Those are composed pieces. Not group improvisations.


I would say that despite their genesis as composed pieces they were never played the same way twice thus that which strays from the original is indeed improvisational.

The "Allan Holdsworth talks about scales" video expresses his take on improvisation but as stated in my post I'm willing to defer to those who have the expertise to weigh in properly and thus I must leave it to others to make a counter-argument if one indeed exists.

I've read your posts on other threads, was suitably impressed, and would not venture to disagree on this particular issue and thus would be willing to concede the validity of this viewpoint.

Best! - Syd


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

Sydney Nova Scotia said:


> I would say that despite their genesis as composed pieces they were never played the same way twice thus that which strays from the original is indeed improvisational.
> Best! - Syd


Holdsworth being a jazz musician at heart refused to recreate his studio solos on the gigs. BTW, I love Sample & Hold. It's quintessential Holdsworth/Bruford. It's too bad Allan was so restless and up and quit the band, but that's the way he was. Bill Bruford called him a solid genius, and I believe his judgement.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

This is AWESOME, just awesome:


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