# Beethoven: Diabelli Variations



## Nix

I'm posting to ask for confirmation that the 'Diabelli Variations' are as good as I think they are. I've been listening to them for the past few days, and today was the day they really clicked. I'm in love, but I can't yet tell to what degree... certainly it's my favorite piano piece by Beethoven (and I'm familiar with all the sonatas and a bit more)... possibly my favorite piano piece in general, still a toss up between this and Book 1 of the WTK. Oddly enough, the Goldberg Variations didn't have nearly as much impact, though I do think they're wonderful. 

So please, help me to find the words as to what makes this set of variations so extraordinary. I did some searches on the forum, and they are seldom mentioned. 

Note: I have the Anatol Ugorski recording. If anyone has recommendations I wouldn't mind hearing them, though I'm obviously pleased with the version I've got. Recording quality is a must (I can't go from good recording quality to bad).


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## Ukko

There are many ways to interpret those variations. Maybe you should hear Mustonen's way.

The 'maybe' is there because I don't know your degree of Interpretation Adaptability. I enjoy Ugorski, and Richter too.


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## tdc

Thanks for the suggestion. I love all the Beethoven piano music I have come across so far but have yet to hear the Diabelli Variations.


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## Polednice

I have Kovacevich's recording, which I believe has very good reviews, but I still haven't clicked with the Diabelli Variations in the same way. It's interesting though, because I think the Variations-on-a-Theme form is actually my favourite musical structure, but give me Brahms's Handel Variations any day!


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## Guest

Polednice, are you sure you don't mean Brahms' "Variation on a Theme by Haydn- St. Antony Chorale"? This is so much better than his Handel Variations.

I have the Kovacevich recording (the recent one) of the Diabelli Variations and I saw him perform these in Sydney in November, 2009. I didn't really know this work and by the end I was in tears and felt really, really stupid as I was leaving the venue!! I met Kovacevich in 1972 when he toured Australia for the Australian Broadcasting Corporation - I was working in the Music Department and he was practicing on the Steinway downstairs in the basement. My voluptuous female friend caught the eye of the music librarian downstairs and she was able to 'con' him into letting us listen to Kovacevich practice!! He was then known as Stephen Bishop!! I was horrified recently to learn that this pianist had recently suffered a mild stroke!! He lives in London.


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## Ukko

*It's not like that, Polednice*



Polednice said:


> [...]
> but give me Brahms's Handel Variations any day!


"Theme with variations" has thrown you off the track. That similarity is about the only one between the two works. Inspiration, intent, surely quite different.

There has been considerable speculation about Beethoven's intent. The complete set of variations as published by Diabelli, and performed by Buchbinder (for Teldec?) exists in CD format. I have the LPs - used to own the CDs but sold them. Listening to several (or all if you are strong) of the compositions by Beethoven's contemporaries, and then hearing his ideas, is a revelatory experience.

Buchbinder's is not my favorite interpretation, but it gets the point across.

I don't see the set listed at amazon.com, but it must be available somewhere.


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## Polednice

CountenanceAnglaise said:


> Polednice, are you sure you don't mean Brahms' "Variation on a Theme by Haydn- St. Antony Chorale"? This is so much better than his Handel Variations.


:O The Haydn Variations are certainly _marvellous_ (listened to them last night, in fact), but I most definitely meant the Handel Variations, which, if it's possible, are an even greater creation! Surely the best set of variations written since the Diabellis (and ever since!).

I know that there's nothing much else linking the Diabelli and Handel; I was just saying that I prefer Brahms - quelle surprise


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## Guest

Sorry, Polednice, of course you do! It's a common 'mistake' and I apologize for my presumptuousness! I love Brahms, but have recently been surprised at how weak some of his solo piano music is, actually. I have Kovacevich playing many of his smaller, single pieces eg. nocturnes etc. They are quite simple and amazingly naive. Perhaps early works, but nonetheless I have been unpleasantly surprised by most of these. Why did you say 'quelle surprise' about Brahms? Is there a school of thought that he's unfashionable. I remember the author James Ellory saying some shocking things about Brahms (but the man is an incoherent drunk, what would he know!). I love Brahms and can't get enough of his music. I live in Vienna at the moment and there's surprisingly little by way of Brahms programmed here for serious music-lovers.


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## Webernite

Brahms nocturnes?


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## Ukko

Webernite said:


> Brahms nocturnes?


I second the [?]


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## Polednice

Hilltroll72 said:


> I second the [?]


Thirded! I was scared for a minute then - I thought I was being amazingly naive about something Brahms! :O

@CountenanceAnglais, I only said "quelle surprise" ironically because most people who frequent TC know that I'm something of a Brahms fanatic


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## Guest

Polednice, I'm really glad to hear that! I was listening again last night to B's Symphony No. 3 and thinking 'yes, these 4 Brahms symphonies are my desert island music". And I have a huge and eclectic classical music interest. I'd be keen to hear what else you have to say about Brahms as I've only recently arrived on the TC scene! Cheers from Vienna, Austria.


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## Polednice

CountenanceAnglaise said:


> Polednice, I'm really glad to hear that! I was listening again last night to B's Symphony No. 3 and thinking 'yes, these 4 Brahms symphonies are my desert island music". And I have a huge and eclectic classical music interest. I'd be keen to hear what else you have to say about Brahms as I've only recently arrived on the TC scene! Cheers from Vienna, Austria.


Ah! It's wonderful to have another Brahms devotee around!  After all, he was an absolute master of intricate musical forms that give so much surface emotion entirely willingly, and yet reveal new and exciting details with each listen - with a wonderful biting wit to match!  I won't hi-jack this thread away from the Diabelli discussion, but I talk about Brahms _A LOT_, so you'll gauge my thoughts soon enough


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## Nicola

CountenanceAnglaise said:


> ... I love Brahms, but have recently been surprised at how weak some of his solo piano music is, actually. I have Kovacevich playing many of his smaller, single pieces eg. nocturnes etc. They are quite simple and amazingly naive. Perhaps early works, but nonetheless I have been unpleasantly surprised by most of these.


Which Kovacevich CD are you referring to?


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## Nix

So I guess no one has the same enthusiasm for the Diabelli Variations then... Brahms sounds great though!


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## Webernite

I do like the Diabelli Variations, but I don't know of that many good performances. I think they're quite difficult to make work, at least on a modern piano.


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## Vaneyes

One of my less favorite LvB works. I've owned and heard and reheard a bunch of recordings. Some overplay, some underplay. I don't have to hear the work again, but if I had to, it would be Brendel.


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## Guest

I'm in Vienna and my CD collection is back in Sydney and I won't be there again until next year. The recording is a Philips double CD from at least 20 plus years ago, and it also contains some Brahms for 4 hands - these don't work so well either. Sorry, I can't be more descriptive than that. I'm speaking about the Kovacevich recording here (and he's a fine pianist).


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## Guest

I'm sorry that the discussion seems to have veered away from "Diabelli Variations". I did post a comment about hearing/seeing Kovacevich in Sydney in 2009. This work seems quite unlike much Beethoven in its overall design and scope, though he did use the variation form quite a lot (not to mention in the finale to Symphony No. 9 and this is a reason I don't think it quite works in that symphony BTW - but that's another long story). I love the final 4 or 5 variations and feel the earlier 24 or so I could go a long while without hearing. But those last, great, variations were written last and represent some of Beethoven's final thoughts in piano form. They follow the same musical thinking as the final 2 or 3 sonatas for piano, the late string quartets and the later Bagatelles (which were, in fact, his last works for piano). I think those last 4 or 5 variations are just extraordinary and, for me, Kovacevich (some prefer his earlier recording of this work) comes closest to that transcendent feeling you get with Beethoven.


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## kv466

Beethoven variations are pure joy to me...I especially like these played by Brendelfly


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## Ukko

CountenanceAnglaise said:


> I'm in Vienna and my CD collection is back in Sydney and I won't be there again until next year. The recording is a Philips double CD from at least 20 plus years ago, and it also contains some Brahms for 4 hands - these don't work so well either. Sorry, I can't be more descriptive than that. I'm speaking about the Kovacevich recording here (and he's a fine pianist).


The 4-hands things may be the whorehouse waltzes. You could have been listening in the wrong frame of mind.


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## Webernite

Maybe it's the Waltzes or the Hungarian Dances. I can see why CountenanceAnglaise would call those works "naive," although I'm not sure I agree that they really are.


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## Il_Penseroso

Beethoven's last piano works as well as his last quartets have still remained unpopular, but basically they were not written to be popular, Beethoven composed them to present a new atmosphere of texture, and a new sense of polyphoy, I'd rather call it 'romantic polyphony' which can be seen later in both Wagner and Brahms and their followers. Such kind of music like "Diabelli Variations" is so difficult to perform, not only because of it's technical problems but a good polyphonic view is needed essentially for a correct interpretation. You may see many brilliant but different interpretations, from some kind of Wagnerian in Schnabel's to that more purely romantic touch of Brendel's.


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## Ukko

Il_Penseroso said:


> Beethoven's last piano works as well as his last quartets have still remained unpopular,
> [...]


It must be my isolation in these hills; I had no idea that these works were unpopular nowadays.


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## Polednice

Webernite said:


> Maybe it's the Waltzes or the Hungarian Dances. I can see why CountenanceAnglaise would call those works "naive," although I'm not sure I agree that they really are.


Some of Brahms's output may obviously be less heavy-going than his latest works, but I think he's one of the few composers who, from his Piano Sonata Op. 1, sounds as though his music could easily be the most mature works of another composer of the same style. He was a master from the outset.


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## Ukko

Polednice said:


> Some of Brahms's output may obviously be less heavy-going than his latest works, but I think he's one of the few composers who, from his Piano Sonata Op. 1, sounds as though his music could easily be the most mature works of another composer of the same style. He was a master from the outset.


Probably, though he was also a 'master' of self-criticism; a lot of manuscripts went into the dustbin.

His Opus 1 is to me a startlingly mature work. It repays the listener's concentration; I like it better than his Opus 5.


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## Il_Penseroso

Hilltroll72 said:


> It must be my isolation in these hills; I had no idea that these works were unpopular nowadays.


Yes they are ... and I mean for the public not musicians ...


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## Guest

Well, I stick by what I said about those Brahms piano pieces. I will give their names as soon as I can find them out. But they sound rather dull by comparison with just about everything else Brahms wrote and this is why I pricked up my ears in dismay. One or two of them are good, but the rest quite dull. And you don't hear much of the Brahms solo piano pieces very much at all these days - on CDs or in the concert hall.
Beethoven "unpopular"? He wasn't IN a popularity contest and his works are fully appreciated by the cognoscenti (spelling?), and I'm sure he would be happy with that. I'm in Zermatt right now and I listened to the last 2 piano sonatas today whilst on the Glacier Express - looking at some of the world's most amazing scenery. And, you know what? It proved the ideal companion!!


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## Webernite

Edit: Nevermind.


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## Polednice

CountenanceAnglaise said:


> Well, I stick by what I said about those Brahms piano pieces. I will give their names as soon as I can find them out. But they sound rather dull by comparison with just about everything else Brahms wrote and this is why I pricked up my ears in dismay. One or two of them are good, but the rest quite dull. And you don't hear much of the Brahms solo piano pieces very much at all these days - on CDs or in the concert hall.


I don't mean this is a facetious way at all, but I'd really like to hear these pieces you're talking about! You've got me on the edge of my seat, because I just cannot think what works you may be referring to. And are the solo piano pieces really that neglected? The late Klavierstucke in particular are some of the most cherished in the standard repertoire...


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## Nicola

Il_Penseroso said:


> Beethoven's last piano works as well as his last quartets have still remained unpopular ...


You don't state precisely which works you are referring to. If you include all "late" period works for piano solo these would include Ops 106, 109, 110, 111, 119, 120, 126. Beethoven's "last" quartets" comprise Ops 127, 130, 131, 132, 133, 135.

Are there any statistics you can refer to that back up your claim above about these works being unpopular? Only if you care to glance at the relevant statistics on ArkivMusic website you will see that there is an abundance of recordings of these various works, and this usually provides a good indicator of popularity. For the "Diabelli Variations" (Op 120) it lists 75 recordings which hardly indicates a lack of popularity.


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## Vaneyes

Nicola said:


> You don't state precisely which works you are referring to. If you include all "late" period works for piano solo these would include Ops 106, 109, 110, 111, 119, 120, 126. Beethoven's "last" quartets" comprise Ops 127, 130, 131, 132, 133, 135.
> 
> Are there any statistics you can refer to that back up your claim above about these works being unpopular? Only if you care to glance at the relevant statistics on ArkivMusic website you will see that there is an abundance of recordings of these various works, and this usually provides a good indicator of popularity. For the "Diabelli Variations" (Op 120) it lists 75 recordings which hardly indicates a lack of popularity.


No LvB SQ appears on this "Popular" Top 200. Piano Sonata No. 14 is #22, Piano Sonata No. 8 is #124.

http://www.kickassclassical.com/classical-music-popular-famous-best-top-100-list.html

LvB SQ. No. 14 is #8, and SQ. No. 13 is #65 on this "Greatest" Top 200. Piano Sonata 23 is #14, Piano Sonata No. 14 is #53, Piano Sonata No. 32 is #83, Piano Sonata No. 21 is #147, Piano Sonata No. 29 is #166

http://www.digitaldreamdoor.com/pages/best-classic-wks.html

In a quick search, I thought these two Top 200s were good generalizations of "popular" and "greatest".

The SQs weren't popular in the "popular" list, none were chosen. Whereas, two of the late SQs were considered the greatest in the "greatest" list.

Re Piano Sonatas, two of the earlier were the only ones popular in the "popular" list. Whereas, four later were considered the greatest in the "greatest" list. No. 23 led the way, with No. 14 following, then the other later ones.

In the "popular" list, I would guess that if the same listeners felt SQs deserved spots, that an early to late progression would appear, because of the approachable factor.


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## Il_Penseroso

Nicola said:


> You don't state precisely which works you are referring to. If you include all "late" period works for piano solo these would include Ops 106, 109, 110, 111, 119, 120, 126. Beethoven's "last" quartets" comprise Ops 127, 130, 131, 132, 133, 135.
> 
> Are there any statistics you can refer to that back up *your claim* above about these works being unpopular? Only if you care to glance at the relevant statistics on ArkivMusic website you will see that there is *an abundance of recordings* of these various works, and this usually provides a good indicator of popularity. For the "Diabelli Variations" (Op 120) it lists *75 recordings* which hardly indicates a lack of popularity.


Don't care the number of recordings or the relevant statistics on ArkivMusic to determine the rate of a musical work's popularity. Do people around the world listen to such works like Op. 111 or Op. 120 as much as they listen to Pathétique or Waldstein ? Or with the same pleasure ? and once again, I mean the public, ordinary music lovers and concert attenders not music students. You know exactly what I mean, there's not a personal claim and there's no need for explanation more.


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## Guest

This is the recording in question:

http://www.amazon.com/Brahms-Piano-...=sr_1_3?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1308737632&sr=1-3

I hope the link works! I think the solo pieces mostly very weak and he seems to 'compensate' with some of them just playing repeated chords. Sorry about this, but Brahms is my 3rd fave composer after Beethoven and Bach - so it's not an easy call for me.


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## Guest

The previous comment ended up in the wrong thread, despite my best efforts. I find this forum excruciatingly difficult to navigate.


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## Nicola

Vaneyes said:


> No LvB SQ appears on this "Popular" Top 200. Piano Sonata No. 14 is #22, Piano Sonata No. 8 is #124.
> 
> http://www.kickassclassical.com/classical-music-popular-famous-best-top-100-list.html
> 
> LvB SQ. No. 14 is #8, and SQ. No. 13 is #65 on this "Greatest" Top 200. Piano Sonata 23 is #14, Piano Sonata No. 14 is #53, Piano Sonata No. 32 is #83, Piano Sonata No. 21 is #147, Piano Sonata No. 29 is #166
> 
> http://www.digitaldreamdoor.com/pages/best-classic-wks.html
> 
> In a quick search, I thought these two Top 200s were good generalizations of "popular" and "greatest".
> 
> The SQs weren't popular in the "popular" list, none were chosen. Whereas, two of the late SQs were considered the greatest in the "greatest" list.
> 
> Re Piano Sonatas, two of the earlier were the only ones popular in the "popular" list. Whereas, four later were considered the greatest in the "greatest" list. No. 23 led the way, with No. 14 following, then the other later ones.
> 
> In the "popular" list, I would guess that if the same listeners felt SQs deserved spots, that an early to late progression would appear, because of the approachable factor.


The first website you quote ("kickassclassical") contains a very narrow interpretation of "popular" classical music. It's so simplistic and cherry-picking that it would probably embarrass even the most popular of popular classical music radio stations if that's all they played. Beethoven's Diabelli Variations (or anything remotely similar) are never going to compete with the likes of Mendelssohn's Wedding March, or Carmina Burana, etc.

Far more appropriate is material quoted from the likes of the DDD website, to which you refer. Their rankings are by no means perfect but they're better than the first one for the purpose of identifying classical music that classical music fans themselves are likely to enjoy and rate highly.

In the DDD top 200 list of the "Greatest Classical Works", there are 5 Beethoven piano sonatas (nos 14, 21, 23, 29, 32), 3 string quartets (nos 13, 14, 15), and his Archduke piano trio. Given the competition from other classical music genres outside piano solo and chamber music, and from works by all other composers, this achievement is impressive. Of these 9 works, 5 were composed in Beethoven's "late period", i.e. after 1815.

For what it may be worth, the T-C greatest classical music list identifies 4 piano solo or chamber works by Beethoven in the top 130 works reached so far, and 3 of the 4 are his "late period" works.

Delving further into the DDD lists, if you check out their list for the 140 "greatest piano solo works" you will see that Beethoven occupies 12 positions, of which 5 are "late period" works: piano sonatas 29, 30, 31, 32 and the Diabelli Variations. Their list of "greatest 120 chamber works" (which they take to be 3 instruments or more) gives 13 positions to Beethoven. Of these, 5 are "late period" works: SQ12, 13, 14, 15, 16, all of which occupy high positions in the rankings.

All in all, this doesn't support the notion that _"Beethoven's last piano works as well as his last quartets have still remained unpopular"_.


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## Nicola

CountenanceAnglaise said:


> This is the recording in question:
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/Brahms-Piano-...=sr_1_3?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1308737632&sr=1-3
> 
> I hope the link works! I think the solo pieces mostly very weak and he seems to 'compensate' with some of them just playing repeated chords. Sorry about this, but Brahms is my 3rd fave composer after Beethoven and Bach - so it's not an easy call for me.


The works played by Kovacevich on this CD are Brahm's highly rated late piano solo works, Klavierstücke Op 116-119. You were referring to Brahms "nocturnes" in your earlier post, which quite threw me, which is why I couldn't find the CD you were referring to. Most websites that know they're doing have these works ranked highly. I bought a more recent version by Nicholas Angelich. I can't say that I'm mad keen on all of Brahms works, but I wouldn't under-rate these particular works.


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## Ukko

CountenanceAnglaise said:


> This is the recording in question:
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/Brahms-Piano-...=sr_1_3?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1308737632&sr=1-3
> 
> I hope the link works! I think the solo pieces mostly very weak and he seems to 'compensate' with some of them just playing repeated chords. Sorry about this, but Brahms is my 3rd fave composer after Beethoven and Bach - so it's not an easy call for me.


"Sorry about this"? No need to apologize. The music, and its many appreciators, will survive your opinion.

There are lots of comments to be found by Googling.

www.depauwform.blogspot.com/.../intermezzo-in-major-brahms-op-118-no-2.html shows up, but doesn't work; too bad.

And a couple suggestions of my own:

_First_, listen to Lupu. His interpretations are at the November end of the 'autumnal' approach to the music.

_Second_, listen to Backhaus. He is near the early September end of autumnal.

_Or_, don't do any of these things, and thereby hang on to your dislike. Your call.


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## Guest

I just find these pieces clunky, is all. But I will listen to the Radu Lupu as suggested. As I said, Brahms is my 3rd top Komponist after Bach and Beethoven. He seems to use a lot of chord repetition and I'm looking for that Brahmsian complexity one gets in the chamber works, Deutsches Requiem, Piano Concertos and Symphonies and it isn't there. Sorry about the confusion about "Nocturnes" Nicola. I never have gotten to know these works well because I just couldn't get into them - though 2 or 3 are undoubtedly good - so that's why I got the title wrong. Yes, they're late Brahms works but I still prefer Schumann's solo piano works to these by Brahms and he, no doubt, would have been influenced by that estimable Komponist.


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## Polednice

CountenanceAnglaise said:


> I just find these pieces clunky, is all. But I will listen to the Radu Lupu as suggested. As I said, Brahms is my 3rd top Komponist after Bach and Beethoven. He seems to use a lot of chord repetition and I'm looking for that Brahmsian complexity one gets in the chamber works, Deutsches Requiem, Piano Concertos and Symphonies and it isn't there. Sorry about the confusion about "Nocturnes" Nicola. I never have gotten to know these works well because I just couldn't get into them - though 2 or 3 are undoubtedly good - so that's why I got the title wrong. Yes, they're late Brahms works but I still prefer Schumann's solo piano works to these by Brahms and he, no doubt, would have been influenced by that estimable Komponist.


:O You're almost making me cry!  These are some of my most cherished works _of any composer_. I was listening to his Klavierstucke late last night and was incredibly moved (once again). I admit, they're absolute swines to play, but they're so beautiful! :'(


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## Guest

Polednice said:


> :O You're almost making me cry!  These are some of my most cherished works _of any composer_. I was listening to his Klavierstucke late last night and was incredibly moved (once again). I admit, they're absolute swines to play, but they're so beautiful! :'(


One man's meat, as they say. I don't say they are bad, but just below par for Brahms. The Ballade is lovely, but I can easily leave the rest. And why do we never hear these performed?


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## Vaneyes

Nicola said:


> The first website you quote ("kickassclassical") contains a very narrow interpretation of "popular" classical music. It's so simplistic and cherry-picking that it would probably embarrass even the most popular of popular classical music radio stations if that's all they played. Beethoven's Diabelli Variations (or anything remotely similar) are never going to compete with the likes of Mendelssohn's Wedding March, or Carmina Burana, etc.
> 
> Far more appropriate is material quoted from the likes of the DDD website, to which you refer. Their rankings are by no means perfect but they're better than the first one for the purpose of identifying classical music that classical music fans themselves are likely to enjoy and rate highly.
> 
> In the DDD top 200 list of the "Greatest Classical Works", there are 5 Beethoven piano sonatas (nos 14, 21, 23, 29, 32), 3 string quartets (nos 13, 14, 15), and his Archduke piano trio. Given the competition from other classical music genres outside piano solo and chamber music, and from works by all other composers, this achievement is impressive. Of these 9 works, 5 were composed in Beethoven's "late period", i.e. after 1815.
> 
> For what it may be worth, the T-C greatest classical music list identifies 4 piano solo or chamber works by Beethoven in the top 130 works reached so far, and 3 of the 4 are his "late period" works.
> 
> Delving further into the DDD lists, if you check out their list for the 140 "greatest piano solo works" you will see that Beethoven occupies 12 positions, of which 5 are "late period" works: piano sonatas 29, 30, 31, 32 and the Diabelli Variations. Their list of "greatest 120 chamber works" (which they take to be 3 instruments or more) gives 13 positions to Beethoven. Of these, 5 are "late period" works: SQ12, 13, 14, 15, 16, all of which occupy high positions in the rankings.
> 
> All in all, this doesn't support the notion that _"Beethoven's last piano works as well as his last quartets have still remained unpopular"_.


You are the one cherry-picking, choosing only one type of list. You recognize popular and unpopular, yet find it necessary to further qualify popular to suit your needs. Atleast I offered fair and balanced reporting with two distinct lists.


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## Sofronitsky

I hate them.


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## Il_Penseroso

Sofronitsky said:


> I hate them.


Hate what ? Variations ?


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## Sofronitsky

Il_Penseroso said:


> Hate what ? Variations ?


The Diabelli Variations.


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## Ukko

Sofronitsky said:


> The Diabelli Variations.


Ah, the blissful depths of_ incomprehension_. ("ignorance" has been taken.)


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## Klavierspieler

I don't actually know much about them, but I've heard they're diabolically difficult to play.


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## Ukko

There is evidence that they are difficult to play so that they 'make sense'. Witness Webster Aitken.


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## jalex

Definitely one of the top three pieces composed for piano imo.


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## Taneyev

Friedrich Gulda.
Anybody listened to the all and complete non LvB variations? Have a recording once by Prof.Hans Kann. Superficial and boring all of them. Ludwig thougt " Ammateurs!. I'll teach them how to write variations!"


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## Ukko

The story has it that Beethoven was annoyed by the attention the Viennese were paying Rossini, whose operas he didn't much care for. Diabelli's proposal was an opportunity to demonstrate that he 'still had the stuff'.

The other contributors to the project treated it rather casually, which probably was how it was intended. Some of their pieces reached the level of OK. In another thread I pointed to the Buchbinder recordings of their efforts, which I know remember having of CD (since sold).


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## fartwriggler

I've struggled with virtually ALL Beethoven's piano works to begin with-repeated listening brings greater appreciation-but,as far as I'm concerned, the jury's still out on the Diabellis....


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## jdavid

Late post in this discussion: OH YES, I have the greatest enthusiasm for the Diabelli Variations and have listened to the work several times over the last couple of months in the car on road trips. I have the aforementioned and celebrated Stephen Kovacevich recording and am intent on acquiring others, particularly Pollini's recording (excerpted here: 



), which is available for download as well, on iTunes now. These 33 variations by Beethoven are my favorite in the genre along with JSBach's 32 'Goldberg' Variations and Elliot Carter's Variations for Orchestra (1956). I may get slammed for using Wikipedia to get at a quote attributed to Alfred Brendel but you might find this interesting:

_Beethoven's approach to the theme is to take some of its smallest elements - the opening turn, the descending fourth and fifth, the repeated notes - and build upon them pieces of great imagination, power and subtlety. Alfred Brendel wrote, "The theme has ceased to reign over its unruly offspring. Rather, the variations decide what the theme may have to offer them. Instead of being confirmed, adorned and glorified, it is improved, parodied, ridiculed, disclaimed, transfigured, mourned, stamped out and finally uplifted."[5]
Beethoven does not seek variety by using key-changes, staying with Diabelli's C-major for most of the set: among the first twenty-eight variations, he uses the tonic minor only once. Then, nearing the conclusion, Beethoven uses the tonic minor for Variations 29-31 and for Variation 32, the impressive fugue, he switches to E-flat major. Coming at this late point, after such a long period in C-major, the key-change has an increased dramatic effect. At the end of the fugue, a culminating flourish consisting of a diminished seventh arpeggio is followed by a mysterious series of quiet chords punctuated by silences. These chords lead back to Diabelli's C-major for Variation 33, the final, sublime minuet._ Wikipedia.com


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## Guest

Polednice, I have a confession to make. I made some earlier comments this year about Brahms' late piano music. Yes, I still think much of it doesn't work but the "Variations and Fugue on a Theme by Haydn" I didn't know terribly well. I do now - Oh my God!!! I take it all back!!!


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## Polednice

CountenanceAnglaise said:


> Polednice, I have a confession to make. I made some earlier comments this year about Brahms' late piano music. Yes, I still think much of it doesn't work but the "Variations and Fugue on a Theme by Haydn" I didn't know terribly well. I do now - Oh my God!!! I take it all back!!!


Do you mean the Variations and Fugue on a Theme by _Handel_?  Well, I am SO glad to hear it! They are just amazing, aren't they?! And, in line with your original theory, they're an early work - Op. 24 or something around that, I think. Absolutely stunning though.


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## Guest

Yes, Handel, sorry. It just get's worse, doesn't it? An early work, you say? Blow me down if this isn't profound music - but then Brahms is an utter champion, yes completely!! It is remarkable that this is an early work and that he didn't go down this road again. Thanks for correcting me on this Polednice; there are obviously serious gaps in my Brahms knowledge. Is it ok to just love this composer, really LOVE his music - will that compensate? I just don't know how they ended up on a double CD called "Late Piano Music of Brahms". Was the pianist 'late' for the recording session; had he died before recording it? Now I AM being facetious!! Tut mir lied.


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## Guest

Thank you so much to those bloggers who've responded positively to my posts. I am much older than any of you, I'll bet, and it's wonderful to be acknowledged by people who know what they're on about! Thanks.


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## Polednice

CountenanceAnglaise said:


> Yes, Handel, sorry. It just get's worse, doesn't it? An early work, you say? Blow me down if this isn't profound music - but then Brahms is an utter champion, yes completely!! It is remarkable that this is an early work and that he didn't go down this road again. Thanks for correcting me on this Polednice; there are obviously serious gaps in my Brahms knowledge. Is it ok to just love this composer, really LOVE his music - will that compensate? I just don't know how they ended up on a double CD called "Late Piano Music of Brahms". Was the pianist 'late' for the recording session; had he died before recording it? Now I AM being facetious!! Tut mir lied.


I just double checked, and it is indeed Op. 24 - written when he was 28. Perhaps the compiler of the album was so stunned by these variations that he assumed they must be the work of a mature musician at his best! It stands as testament to the fact that, even if some find Brahms's musical quality more variable than I do, he was a true master craftsman from the outset. I think these are certainly on par with the Diabelli Variations (and any others!); each individual variation utterly sublime in its own right.

And yes, it is entirely OK if you compensate by loving our dear Brahms! We can love him together!  Which pianist did you listen to by the way?


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## Guest

Stephen Kovacevich - this pianist is somewhat under-rated but absolutely marvellous. I've seen him in concert playing "Diabelli" and I left the performance is tears and felt SUCH a fool!! I agree that these Variations of Brahms are the equal of both "Goldberg" and "Diabelli". They glow in the dark and I'm going to listen again right now in my I-Pod (thanks Steve!). guten abend


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## Polednice

CountenanceAnglaise said:


> Stephen Kovacevich - this pianist is somewhat under-rated but absolutely marvellous. I've seen him in concert playing "Diabelli" and I left the performance is tears and felt SUCH a fool!! I agree that these Variations of Brahms are the equal of both "Goldberg" and "Diabelli". They glow in the dark and I'm going to listen again right now in my I-Pod (thanks Steve!). guten abend


Ah, I'm so pleased that you listened to the Kovacevich! They're my favourite version.


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## Guest

Wunderbah. I see by your photograph in your profile that you're a young man who is still a student. How lovely to find young people with such a love of serious music. Perhaps you are a music student? I wish I had students like you when I was a high school teacher!! Best wishes.


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## Polednice

CountenanceAnglaise said:


> Wunderbah. I see by your photograph in your profile that you're a young man who is still a student. How lovely to find young people with such a love of serious music. Perhaps you are a music student? I wish I had students like you when I was a high school teacher!! Best wishes.


I'm an English student in fact, but my passion is very serious, so I may well find myself doing music study after my degree.


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## Guest

Wunderbah!!


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## jdavid

HI!! Brahms wrote variations on themes by Haydn and Handel - These entries are from Wikipedia, hope I didn't miss something, as perhaps both of you, Mssrs. Polednice and CountenanceAnglaise (aka Englishguise), are well aware of the Haydn. Best from jd.

_The Variations on a Theme by Joseph Haydn, (German: Variationen über ein Thema von Jos. Haydn), is a work in the form of a theme and variations, composed by Johannes Brahms in the summer of 1873. It consists of a theme in B-flat major, eight variations and a finale.
It was published in two versions: for two pianos, written first but designated Op. 56b; and for orchestra, designated Op. 56a. The orchestral version is better known and much more often heard than the two-piano version.
The orchestral version is thought to be the first independent set of variations for orchestra in the history of music.[1] It is scored for piccolo, 2 flutes, 2 oboes, 2 clarinets, 2 bassoons, contrabassoon, 4 horns (2 in E flat, 2 in B flat), 2 trumpets, timpani, triangle, and the normal string section of first and second violins, violas, cellos and double basses.
The first performance of the orchestral version was given on 2 November 1873 by the Vienna Philharmonic Orchestra under Brahms's baton.
The piece usually takes about 18 minutes to perform._ Wikipedia

_The Variations and Fugue on a Theme by Handel, Op. 24, is a work for solo piano written by Johannes Brahms in 1861. It consists of a set of twenty-five variations and a concluding fugue based on a theme from George Frideric Handel's Harpsichord Suite No. 1 in B-flat Major, HWV 434.
The great music writer Donald Francis Tovey has ranked it among "the half-dozen greatest sets of variations ever written."[1] Biographer Jan Swafford describes the Handel Variations as "perhaps the finest set of piano variations since Beethoven," adding, "Besides a masterful unfolding of ideas concluding with an exuberant fugue with a finish designed to bring down the house, the work is quintessentially Brahms in other ways: the filler of traditional forms with fresh energy and imagination; the historical eclectic able to start off with a gallant little tune of Handel's, Baroque ornaments and all, and integrate it seamlessly into his own voice, in a work of massive scope and dazzling variety."[
_ Wikipedia



Polednice said:


> Do you mean the Variations and Fugue on a Theme by _Handel_?  Well, I am SO glad to hear it! They are just amazing, aren't they?! And, in line with your original theory, they're an early work - Op. 24 or something around that, I think. Absolutely stunning though.


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## Ukko

As you know, Beethoven was only one of the composers who responded to the publisher Diabelli's request for variations on his theme. Here is the offering by one of them, one Franz Jakob Freystädtler.

https://download.yousendit.com/T2dkZ281bWdreEQ1SE1UQw

The pianist is Rudolf Buchbinder.


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## Mephistopheles

Has anyone heard Sokolov's recording? I managed to listen to a few extracts, and although it sounds a _tad_ exaggerated in places, it sounds rather MIGHTY, and the piece made more sense to me. I think I'm going to have to buy it.


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## StlukesguildOhio

I listened to it on Spotify some time ago... and thought enough of it to add it to my "wish list". My first choice, however, remains:










This one really turned me onto the variations as one of Beethoven's supreme works.


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## Mephistopheles

StlukesguildOhio said:


> I listened to it on Spotify some time ago... and thought enough of it to add it to my "wish list". My first choice, however, remains:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This one really turned me onto the variations as one of Beethoven's supreme works.


Ah, I didn't realise Kovacevich had done more than one recording. I'll have to check that one out!


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## powerbooks

Before commenting too much about the merit of Beethoven's Variations, it does not hurt to listen to all the rest of the variations composed by the rest group of famous composers of that time, including magnificent Czerny, and the young boy Liszt:









Rudolf Buchbinder
Beethoven and Others: Diabelli's Waltz - The Complete Variations (Reissue)


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## Vaneyes

Mephistopheles said:


> Has anyone heard Sokolov's recording? I managed to listen to a few extracts, and although it sounds a _tad_ exaggerated in places, it sounds rather MIGHTY, and the piece made more sense to me. I think I'm going to have to buy it.


Perhaps exaggeration is what I need. Maybe more than a tad, though. This work has been absent from my collection for some time, after trying several if not more recs.


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## Ukko

Vaneyes said:


> Perhaps exaggeration is what I need. Maybe more than a tad, though. This work has been absent from my collection for some time, after trying several if not more recs.


Seems like Mustonen has recorded Op. 120 too. He usually has a 'fresh' take.


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## Ukko

Vaneyes said:


> Perhaps exaggeration is what I need. Maybe more than a tad, though. This work has been absent from my collection for some time, after trying several if not more recs.


Mustonen has recorded Op. 120 too. He usually has a 'fresh' take.

http://www.amazon.com/Beethoven-Dia...1348611515&sr=1-3&keywords=mustonen+beethoven


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## KenOC

The Diabellis...Kovacevich is very fine (I have only his newer recording) but right now my favorite is Paul Lewis. Who knows about tomorrow?

I used to have a MHS LP of all the non-Beethoven variations, and (as somebody pointed out) they just go to show how REALLY GOOD Ludwig was!


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## Webernite

I don't know whether I posted this already, but I've always thought it would make the perfect encore piece for the Diabellis. He composed this when he was 12.


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## KenOC

Hey, that's good! Better than most of those "other" 50, and very Beethovenish too. Now where's that thumbs-up button?


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## Ukko

KenOC said:


> [...]
> I used to have a MHS LP of all the non-Beethoven variations, and (as somebody pointed out) they just go to show how REALLY GOOD Ludwig was!


Most of the non-Beethoven variations were not approached with the intensity of purpose that LvB had. That probably had _some_ effect on their, ah, degree of excellence.

I have that LP set (somewhere), and the CD reissue. Would like to hear those non-B's played by someone else; Buchbinder is not my favorite pianist.


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## moody

Hilltroll72 said:


> Most of the non-Beethoven variations were not approached with the intensity of purpose that LvB had. That probably had _some_ effect on their, ah, degree of excellence.
> 
> I have that LP set (somewhere), and the CD reissue. Would like to hear those non-B's played by someone else; Buchbinder is not my favorite pianist.


I have an Archiv recording of Joerg Demus playing them on a Hammerfluegel it's good but I don't know whether it has been transferred to CD.
I just checked--yes it has on Australian Eloquence ,two CD's for £10.75.


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## KenOC

Hilltroll72 said:


> ...Would like to hear those non-B's played by someone else; Buchbinder is not my favorite pianist.


See a few posts back -- Ian Fountain's recording. It seems to be available over at that what's-its-name site.


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## Alydon

I agree with the choice of Brendel as one of the greatest pianists of this monumental set of variations.

My view of the Diabelli variations has changed over the years. I too listened on and off for years and didn't get the piece and then about 3 years ago put them on whilst doing some work in the house. The music just clicked somehow, and from then on I play them on a regular basis. The Diabelli Variations is a difficult work to come to terms with and the thing which struck me was how powerful and earth shattering they are as well as containing a great deal of humour - a couple of them seem quite mad! I believe Beethoven nearly didn't take up the challenge to compose the variations on Diabelli's quaint theme (as did several other composers), but when he did he wasn't taking any half measures and the impression made is Beethoven saying,'well beat that,' which he certainly did.

Not only is the work complex but contains so much emotion - Beethoven seems to be looking back as well as forward and feels at times to be a swan-song as far as writing variations for the piano. Without doubt a great work and masterpiece.the choice


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## Novelette

The first few variations strike me as mundane. It is only when we get to Variation 8 that I hear a creative variation. The rest of the work is magisterial.

It easily stands with Bach's Goldberg Variations, and while I hate to admit this, it definitely tops Brahms' Variations and Fugue on a Theme by Handel, in my opinion.


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## DavidA

moody said:


> I have an Archiv recording of Joerg Demus playing them on a Hammerfluegel it's good but I don't know whether it has been transferred to CD.
> I just checked--yes it has on Australian Eloquence ,two CD's for £10.75.


Yes. Reviewed in Gramophone this month


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## hreichgott

I don't remember which pianist this was -- someone male -- he said in an interview that once in the middle of a concert about 2/3 of the way through the Diabelli Variations, he said to himself, "I think I am the only one having fun here."


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## KenOC

For once, a publisher's puffery hits the mark:

"We present here to the world Variations of no ordinary type, but a great and important masterpiece worthy to be ranked with the imperishable creations of the old Classics -- such a work as only Beethoven, the greatest living representative of true art -- only Beethoven, and no other, can produce. The most original structures and ideas, the boldest musical idioms and harmonies are here exhausted; every pianoforte effect based on a solid technique is employed, and this work is the more interesting from the fact that it is elicited from a theme which no one would otherwise have supposed capable of a working-out of that character in which our exalted Master stands alone among his contemporaries. The splendid Fugues, Nos. 24 and 32, will astonish all friends and connoisseurs of serious style, as will Nos. 6, 16, 17, 23, &c. the brilliant pianists; indeed all these variations, through the novelty of their ideas, care in working-out, and beauty in the most artful of their transitions, will entitle the work to a place beside Sebastian Bach's famous masterpiece in the same form. We are proud to have given occasion for this composition, and have, moreover, taken all possible pains with regard to the printing to combine elegance with the utmost accuracy."


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## DavidA

Tis is a multi-faceted work of genius. There have been some great recordings of this piece.
Schnabel is really fantastic - wrong notes and all.
Kovacevich (his earlier version not the later one which seems rushed)
Richter
Andersowski (not sure about the spelling)
Benjamin Frith - he's actually a local British pianist but gives ne of the finest performances on CD


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