# Bob Dylan vs. Joni Mitchell



## GucciManeIsTheNewWebern (Jul 29, 2020)

Sort of a silly thread, I know, but I'm interested to hear where people stand on this question. I like both, but I prefer Joni Mitchell by a long shot. Her voice is unparalleled and enables her to do way more melodically and I find her more musically interesting (such as her complex chords and harmonies) and far more inventive throughout the different periods of her output compared to Dylan.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

Well I am pretty biased having a pretty large collection of Dylan recordings and no Joni. The only thing I remember about Joni was paving a parking lot, played incessantly in the 1970s on the radio. Good voice, she had.


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

No contest, Bobby


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## GucciManeIsTheNewWebern (Jul 29, 2020)

SixFootScowl said:


> Well I am pretty biased having a pretty large collection of Dylan recordings and no Joni. The only thing I remember about Joni was *paving a parking lot, played incessantly in the 1970s on the radio*.


Hahaha that's Big Yellow Taxi. I totally believe the incessant hammering of it on the airwaves, though that's before my time (I'm 23). I like that song but it's not a good representation of most of her output.


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

Very different artists/songwriters. I won't vote. The OP may like both but have a clear choice, but I like both and don't have a clear choice.


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

I like both for very different reasons. Obviously Joni Mitchell is a way more sophisticated musician, and really there's absolutely no contest there. Dylan was great at writing lyrics and the best Bob Dylan songs (even being very basic from the point of view of the music) are absolute classics. I've voted for Joni now, tomorrow I could vote for Dylan.


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## Strange Magic (Sep 14, 2015)

A gross of one; 144 of the other. Two fabulous talents. Yin/Yang. Q: How much better can you get? A: Yet to be born.


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## Guest (Oct 14, 2020)

I voted for Dylan. Both great artists, I just think that Dylan made more "classics". It's a bean-counter thing.
As I said elsewhere, come the revolution, the accountants/suits and priests will be the first against the wall.


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## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

I'll have to go with Joni. First, for my taste, her voice and phrasing are more interesting than Dylan's. She also does more interesting things musically, and she writes interesting lyrics. I also think she's a better painter.


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

I can’t vote ‘cos I love both. To misquote Dr. Johnson, “He who is tired of Joni and Bob, is tired of life”. 
New Joni Archive box out at the end of the month. Yay!


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

Both great songwriters but as a musician and vocalist I'm much more attracted to Joni for her superior abilities. Dylan's material provides great opportunities for talented musicians to take those songs and create more sophisticated arrangements. Joni's recordings are so immaculate and accomplished that they can't really be improved upon.


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## Chilham (Jun 18, 2020)

Barbebleu said:


> I can't vote 'cos I love both. To misquote Dr. Johnson, "He who is tired of Joni and Bob, is tired of life".
> ...


Exactly. Budokan and Hissing of Summer Lawns are integral to the soundtrack to my teens.


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## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

starthrower said:


> Joni's recordings are so immaculate and accomplished that they can't really be improved upon.


I remember hearing a live concert of Joni's where an obnoxious fan kept screaming for Carrie. Finally Joni lowered her voice and told her, "They never asked Van Gogh to paint another Starry Night." I know what she was meaning.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

GucciManeIsTheNewWebern said:


> Hahaha that's Big Yellow Taxi. I totally believe the incessant hammering of it on the airwaves, though that's before my time (I'm 23). I like that song but it's not a good representation of most of her output.


You would have enjoyed listening to it on the radio in the 1970s. They must have played some other Joni but I don't know who sings most of what I heard on the radio. In fact, they use to play "Lay Lady Lay" on the radio just as incessantly back in the 1970s but the funny thing is I never knew that was Bob Dylan until I got into Dylan about 8 years ago. I hear a lot of people don't know it. Guess Bob did a great job with Nashville Skyline in changing the whole character of his music to throw off those who sought him as a messiah.


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## Rogerx (Apr 27, 2018)

Joni Mitchell, hands down .


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## Open Book (Aug 14, 2018)

Manxfeeder said:


> I'll have to go with Joni. First, for my taste, her voice and phrasing are more interesting than Dylan's. She also does more interesting things musically, and she writes interesting lyrics. I also think she's a better painter.


She is a talented painter. If there's any criticism of her artwork it's that she's tried too many styles and doesn't quite have a definitive one.






https://jonimitchell.com/paintings/


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## Guest (Oct 15, 2020)

Would have personally paired Bob Dylan with either Elvis Costello or Paul Simon and Joni Mitchell with either Paul Simon or Neil Young.

Five unique once-in-a-lifetime talents.

Paul Simon, lyrically and rhythmically adventurous, is almost criminally over-looked as an inventive and innovative songwriter... Of course, being over-looked is the kind of thing that tends to happen when you stand only five feet two inches tall...

And Bob Dylan, along with Elvis and John Lennon, are the three greatest voices in rock & roll.


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## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

Dylan. I can't listen to Joni, except the earlier folkish stuff. Most of the singer-songwriter stuff in the 70's like Carole King drive me nuts.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

Dylan and the Band said:


> Would have personally paired Bob Dylan with either Elvis Costello or Paul Simon and Joni Mitchell with either Paul Simon or *Neil Young*.


I like Neil Young and after listening to a lot of Neil Young, I feel like he is a second Bob Dylan of sorts. Very much as good of a poet as Dylan. And as diverse of a career. Both are still going strong at advanced age.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

This is a fun video:


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## Chilham (Jun 18, 2020)




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## jegreenwood (Dec 25, 2015)

I love Joni, but this one goes to Bobby Z.


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## julide (Jul 24, 2020)

Joni obviously. Bob Dylan is too american for my taste and his themes and concerns are too masculine in a bad way. I really don't care about what he has to say with that horrible horrible voice.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

julide said:


> Joni obviously. Bob Dylan is too american for my taste and his themes and concerns are too masculine in a bad way. I really don't care about what he has to say with *that horrible horrible voice*.


Which horrible horrible voice? It has varied over the years. The only one I really thought horrible was the smoke damaged voice of more recent years. But the horrible horrible voice is one of Dylan's great assets as a performer.


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

julide said:


> Joni obviously. Bob Dylan is too american for my taste and his themes and concerns are too masculine in a bad way. I really don't care about what he has to say with that horrible horrible voice.


Too American? Dylan is a musician who's absorbed much of the traditional music of America, the folk vernacular music, mountain ballads and blues. One can hardly say they appreciate any Western non-classical music without acknowledging a debt to American music.

Too masculine, in a bad way? Odd comment, IMO. You'd have to expand on this aspect of your comment.

I enjoy both Dylan and Joni Mitchell, but Dylan is far and away the more important artist/songwriter.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

We had an unusually warm day today so we took a drive and listened to Dylan's Infidels album. That's certainly one of my favorites.


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## Guest (Oct 16, 2020)

starthrower said:


> We had an unusually warm day today so we took a drive and listened to *Dylan's Infidels album*. That's certainly one of my favorites.


Infidels has an interesting back story -

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infidels_(Bob_Dylan_album)

In the section marked "Aftermath" this is written -

"Dylan spent the fall of 1983 recording demos and various songs at his home in Malibu, California. Rather than work alone, Dylan brought in a number of young musicians, including Charlie Sexton, drummer Charlie Quintana and guitarist JJ Holiday. As Heylin notes, "this was Dylan's first real dalliance with third-generation American rock & rollers." These informal sessions set the stage for Dylan's first public performances since 1982.

Dylan appeared on Late Night with David Letterman on March 22, 1984. He performed with Quintana, Holiday (introduced by Letterman as "Justin Jesting"), and bassist Tony Marsico. Performing three songs with his band of post-punk musicians, the Plugz,

Dylan delivered what many consider to be his most entertaining television performance ever. The combo first performed an unrehearsed version of Sonny Boy Williamson's "Don't Start Me to Talking", then a radically different arrangement of "License To Kill". The final song was a peppy, somewhat new-wave version of "Jokerman" that ended with a harmonica solo. At the end of the performance, Letterman walked onstage and congratulated Dylan, asking him if he could come back and play every Thursday. Dylan smiled and jokingly agreed.

This is a 33+ minute video capturing the afternoon rehearsal and the actual performance -






"This is the full video coverage of Bob Dylan's appearance on Late Night with David Letterman, March 22, 1984. It includes upgraded rehearsal footage from that afternoon, with performances of "I Once Knew a Man," "Jokerman," "License to Kill," "Treat Her Right," and the chords to what sounds like "My Guy."

For the broadcast (starting at the 19 minute mark) are "Don't Start Me Talkin'," "License to Kill," and after a remote and a segment with Liberace cooking a casserole (neither included here), "Jokerman."

There's an edit towards the end of the rehearsal footage that combines the upgraded video with the earlier poor-quality clip that wasn't included in the upgraded version."


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## Jay (Jul 21, 2014)

SixFootScowl said:


> no Joni


One word: _Blue_

......


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

A few more words. Bringing It all Back Home!


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## Malx (Jun 18, 2017)

I find myself fence sitting on this debate. 
I think the simplest way to explain my position is this - Bob Dylan is with little doubt the more influential artist and posterity will view him in higher regard but with the passage of time from the sixties and seventies I find myself getting more enjoyment from listening to Joni Mitchell's recordings.

I didn't vote either way.


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

Jay said:


> One word: _Blue_
> ......


Her best, IMO. Her early work is overall better than after her over-produced, synthesized, albums. _Hejira_ was her last really good record. _Court & Spark_, _Hissing_, both are among her worst, IMO. I really didn't like her dabbling with the jazz-lite of Tom Scott. She eventually found her way to better musicians with Wayne Shorter and Jaco Pastorius, but they were so strong they overwhelmed her.

But her lyrics remained at a high level throughout - it's just that she lost her way musically.

My personal view as a huge Joni fan.


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## Guest (Oct 16, 2020)

Interesting article that I came across when researching artists who covered Joni Mitchell tunes -

http://www.covermesongs.com/2019/05/the-best-joni-mitchell-covers-ever.html

From the intro -

"Joni Mitchell is 75 and won't be with us forever. She suffered an aneurysm in 2015, and she's coping with the little-understood Morgellons disease. She has difficulty walking, and has not spoken publicly in years. But if her place on earth is tenuous, her place in the heavens is secure; millions of people already look up to her every day."

Note: Morgellons disease (MD) is a rare disorder characterized by the presence of fibers underneath, embedded in, and erupting from unbroken skin or slow-healing sores. Some people with the condition also experience a sensation of crawling, biting, and stinging on and in their skin.

"In an excellent essay for NPR, Ann Powers wrote: "Like her prime compatriots Bob Dylan and Leonard Cohen and her favorite protégé Prince, no one can adequately echo her; even great singers, taking on her songbook, admit they can only hope to achieve proximity." Indeed, a Joni Mitchell cover is never just a tribute - it's an assertion, an artist coming forth to pick up a gauntlet she lay down decades ago."

Joni's most-recorded songs by other artists -

https://jonimitchell.com/music/covers-most.cfm

And on behalf of Blind Boy Grunt -

List of artists who have covered Bob Dylan songs -

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_artists_who_have_covered_Bob_Dylan_songs

Looking through both lists it quickly becomes apparent that Dylan tunes are far more accessible as cover tunes - There's a lot of open space there which encourages innovation whereas Joni's tunes are, in many ways, so idiosyncratic that it's nearly impossible to do anything other than a somewhat acceptable pastiche although CSNY did do a really first-rate rendition of "Woodstock".

Category: "Great Mysteries That Will Never Be Solved" -

"Why would anyone issue an expanded version of what must surely be one of the worst albums ever released in the history of popular music?"









The entire album is actually available on YouTube - listen at your own peril - Dylan should have filed suit to either prevent its release entirely or to have his name removed from the title at the very least.

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_nOpPBo34AQtTGicITU5v2iR1X8h7 m-d5E

Alan Clarke is a genuinely talented guy - great set of pipes - but this album is why Graham Nash left to form CSN.

Moment of Shame That Will Haunt Alan Clarke Until The Day He Dies And Beyond Even That" -

"Blowing In The Wind" -






This is a clip that's often overlooked - Joni's excellent vocal overlay on Neil Young's "Helpless" during the Band's "Last Waltz" concert -


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

I don't see Joni as losing her way. She kept progressing and exploring new ideas. Even an album like Dog Eat Dog to my ears is loaded with great songs despite the production values. Of her early albums I'm a big fan of Ladies Of The Canyon. That album still sounds amazing and fresh and of course the songs are superb, imo.


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

starthrower said:


> I don't see Joni as losing her way. She kept progressing and exploring new ideas. Even an album like Dog Eat Dog to my ears is loaded with great songs despite the production values. Of her early albums I'm a big fan of Ladies Of The Canyon. That album still sounds amazing and fresh and of course the songs are superb, imo.


Well, yeah, even her worst albums have some really strong songs - mainly because of the lyrics. Much of the time I feel her music is obscured by the production or lost in a haze of open string tunings. And then there's the vocal indulgences - as she made more records I feel her style became more exaggerated and less effective.

What makes me say her early records are the high point, _Blue_ and before, is based on two things:

1. Primarily acoustic records, many guitar-vocals
2. Naturalistic approach to production

Her embrace of studio technology doomed her later work. Whereas her early work is timeless, her later work sounds dated, based on the shelf life of the technology.

But as I said, her lyrics remained strong throughout. It is a shame they were covered up by such superficial production. Of course, she was the captain of her own ship. No one but she is to blame.

But of course, Bob Dylan's early work is his best, as well. After _Nashville Skyline_, the high points become rare: _Blood on the Tracks_, _Oh Mercy_, _Infidels_. The three evangelical records are actually better than what surrounds them.

Most of his albums from the '80s are crap, except for the two I noted above.

But then from 1992 on, he did some good stuff, the highlights being _Good as I Been to You_ and _World Gone Wrong_. Then, unfortunately, he began doing his Sinatra trilogy. Complete waste, IMO.

His latest is pretty good. Maybe his last original work - but Dylan is notorious for rising from the ashes.

One of the best things he's done which hardly gets talked about is his *Theme Time Radio* shows. Three years worth of themed radio shows curated and hosted by Dylan. Really, really wonderful and valuable.

Still, given all the inconsistencies and low points I still consider Dylan far and away the more important artist.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

Joni can do more than sing folk type material. She can work with jazz musicians and use her idiosyncratic phrasing which I find fascinating. It keeps it fresh for me as a listener. I disagree about lyrics saving an album. Nobody listens to music for lyrics alone. Okay, maybe some Dylan fans because I find some of his stuff extremely rudimentary and underdeveloped. Dog Eat Dog contains her one of kind crafted vocal melodies and I'm sure she could sit down with a guitar or at the piano and these songs will hold up and sound even better without the dated technology. She did this with a later song, Sex Kills, when she performed it on TV with just an acoustic guitar.


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

Sorry. Dup post. xxxxxxxxxxxxx


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

I have a friend who came to Joni about eight years ago when she was in her mid thirties never having heard anything other than Big Yellow Taxi. She had no preconceptions and never grew up with her music. She hears no difference in quality of output between Song to a Seagull, Dog Eat Dog and Shine. She loves it all. Obviously she has her favourites, Hejira and Both Sides Now, but she gives all the albums equal weight. I think that she is not influenced simply by having not spent fifty years doing odious comparisons and doesn’t have the old fogey mindset of “ the early stuff was the best”.


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

Barbebleu said:


> I have a friend who came to Joni about eight years ago when she was in her mid thirties never having heard anything other than Big Yellow Taxi. She had no preconceptions and never grew up with her music. She hears no difference in quality of output between Song to a Seagull, Dog Eat Dog and Shine. She loves it all. Obviously she has her favourites, Hejira and Both Sides Now, but she gives all the albums equal weight. I think that she is not influenced simply by having not spent fifty years doing odious comparisons and doesn't have the old fogey mindset of " the early stuff was the best".


Yeah, well, "everything is good" is not an very interesting thing to say or think, IMO.

My opinion is based on a strong preference for acoustic music, with studio technology doing only as much is necessary to capture in a naturalistic sound the artist singing/playing a good song.

The enemies of art are abstraction and technology.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

Abstraction is relative. Without technology non of us would be discussing any of this music because we'd never have heard it.


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

starthrower said:


> Joni can do more than sing folk type material. She can work with jazz musicians and use her idiosyncratic phrasing which I find fascinating. It keeps it fresh for me as a listener. I disagree about lyrics saving an album. Nobody listens to music for lyrics alone. Okay, maybe some Dylan fans because I find some of his stuff extremely rudimentary and underdeveloped. Dog Eat Dog contains her one of kind crafted vocal melodies and I'm sure she could sit down with a guitar or at the piano and these songs will hold up and sound even better without the dated technology. She did this with a later song, Sex Kills, when she performed it on TV with just an acoustic guitar.


Her work with jazz musicians is some of the worst: limp-wristed pop, superficial jazz-lite. She has no grit, most of her music is far to pretty - girlish and shallow. Repetitive. At least Dylan has some edge to his music which elevates the lyrics, which are mostly already at a high level.

Gee, the more I think about it, there's a lot about Joni Mitchell I don't really care for.


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

starthrower said:


> Abstraction is relative. Without technology non of us would be discussing any of this music because we'd never have heard it.


You know, the old recordings done in the 20s are fine. We don't need isolation booths and multi-tracking in order to make "perfect" records. The modern studio killed a lot more good music than it has produced. There is a YouTube channel called *One Mic Recordings* which is a breath of fresh air. A live performance captured by one stereo microphone. No mixing, the placement of the musicians around the microphone and dynamic self-leveling in a live setting is how true artistry is captured by modern recording equipment.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

SanAntone said:


> Her work with jazz musicians is some of the worst: limp-wristed pop, superficial jazz-lite. She has no grit, most of her music is far to pretty - girlish and shallow. Repetitive. At least Dylan has some edge to his music which elevates the lyrics, which are mostly already at a high level.
> 
> Gee, the more I think about it, there's a lot about Joni Mitchell I don't really care for.


No kidding? Others don't feel the same way. I don't hear it as superficial jazz-lite. The songs are still the main focus. I take it for what it is. I don't compare her music to the jazz greats. You have your prejudices. Fine. I can enjoy different kinds of music. I could care less whether it's acoustic or electric or a fusion of styles or whatever.


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

I was never a big fan of Mitchell's music, preferring Judy Collins and Joan Baez. Voted for Dylan, and I'd pick him over Collins and Baez also.


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## inti (Apr 19, 2020)

joni. i dont like bobs voice tbh


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## Strange Magic (Sep 14, 2015)

In a sense we are attempting to compare the incomparable. It is difficult to imagine Dylan singing songs like _Cold Blue Steel and Sweet Fire_ or even _Chelsea Morning_. It is also difficult to hear Joni Mitchell singing _Idiot Wind_ or _Positively 4th Street_. Yin/Yang, each best in his/her own way. I will concede that in terms of sheer volume of output, Dylan leads and so can boast a larger share of his work in SM's Collection of Greatest Hits. But much of Joni's material, both in studio and live, is priceless.


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## GucciManeIsTheNewWebern (Jul 29, 2020)

I think Mingus is a dud album, in my opinion. There's nothing terribly wrong with it per se, but for that star-studded lineup (Jaco, Joni, Wayne Shorter, Herbie Hancock, all interpreting Mingus' last compositions) it's pretty underwhelming and you'd think to expect something better. I think _The Dry Cleaner from Des Moines_ is a banger and the rest of it is pretty forgettable.

So I get what SanAntone is saying about disliking the 'jazz-lite' but this only pertains to the Mingus album for me. I think Don Juan's Reckless Daughter, Court & Spark, Hejira, etc. are A++ albums.


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

GucciManeIsTheNewWebern said:


> I think Mingus is a dud album, in my opinion. There's nothing terribly wrong with it per se, but for that star-studded lineup (Jaco, Joni, Wayne Shorter, Herbie Hancock, all interpreting Mingus' last compositions) it's pretty underwhelming and you'd think to expect something better. I think _The Dry Cleaner from Des Moines_ is a banger and the rest of it is pretty forgettable.
> 
> So I get what SanAntone is saying about disliking the 'jazz-lite' but this only pertains to the Mingus album for me. I think Don Juan's Reckless Daughter, Court & Spark, Hejira, etc. are A++ albums.


Of the ones you mention only _Hejira_ I think of as approaching good. But then again, I consider Weather Report to hardly be Wayne Shorter's best work. He has done worse stuff, his sci-fi fusion records as a leader are pretty much a waste of time. But the work with Joni Mitchell fails to register as worthwhile at all, IMO. I really think she went on an unfortunate detour, progressively more and more in the wrong direction with each successive record. However, those records with Jaco and Shorter were the high point of a bad patch. With her then husband producing her it only got worse.


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## Varick (Apr 30, 2014)

Joni's music is just something I don't "get." I don't get the appeal of it. I have every one of her studio albums (won it in a bizarre raffle) and it was just torture getting through them. I kept listening for the "greatness" but alas, I never heard any of it.

Dylan on the other hand... just great stuff through and through. Well, that's what makes a ball game. Different strokes for different folks.

V


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

SanAntone said:


> Of the ones you mention only _Hejira_ I think of as approaching good. But then again, I consider Weather Report to hardly be Wayne Shorter's best work. He has done worse stuff, his sci-fi fusion records as a leader are pretty much a waste of time. /QUOTE]
> 
> that material is uneven, but High life is amazing. One of my favorite albums of the nineties, and in terms of compositions it's probably the best I can think of of that decade. The production could be off putting (I'm not a fan of the rhyhtm section, especially the drums that are quite terrible), but to me it could be his best album with Speak no evil.


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

norman bates said:


> SanAntone said:
> 
> 
> > Of the ones you mention only _Hejira_ I think of as approaching good. But then again, I consider Weather Report to hardly be Wayne Shorter's best work. He has done worse stuff, his sci-fi fusion records as a leader are pretty much a waste of time. /QUOTE]
> ...


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

SanAntone said:


> norman bates said:
> 
> 
> > Well, we disagree. The songs would have been better served with an acoustict band; the disco production ruins it for me. If you equate this with Speak No Evil, then there is nothing more to say.
> ...


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

norman bates said:


> SanAntone said:
> 
> 
> > I'm saying this as as someone who consider Shorter his favorite living musician and one of say, three favorite musicians of all times in any genre. And I agree when you say that the stuff with Weather report is certainly not the work that represent him best. I get that the production can be an obstacle at first (like it was for me, Shorter is an incredible composer, but the production of Marcus Miller has never been for me), but the tunes are just amazing.
> ...


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

SanAntone said:


> norman bates said:
> 
> 
> > The production does a disservice to the material; I am at a loss as to why Shorter spent so many years in the fusion style.
> ...


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

GucciManeIsTheNewWebern said:


> I think Mingus is a dud album, in my opinion. There's nothing terribly wrong with it per se, but for that star-studded lineup (Jaco, Joni, Wayne Shorter, Herbie Hancock, all interpreting Mingus' last compositions) it's pretty underwhelming and you'd think to expect something better. I think _The Dry Cleaner from Des Moines_ is a banger and the rest of it is pretty forgettable.
> 
> So I get what SanAntone is saying about disliking the 'jazz-lite' but this only pertains to the Mingus album for me. I think Don Juan's Reckless Daughter, Court & Spark, Hejira, etc. are A++ albums.


There's more than one good song on Mingus, imo. I've always liked A Chair In The Sky, and The Wolf That Lives In Lindsey. And her fine vocal rendition of Pork Pie Hat.


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

starthrower said:


> There's more than one good song on Mingus, imo. I've always liked A Chair In The Sky, and The Wolf That Lives In Lindsey. And her fine vocal rendition of Pork Pie Hat.


She has spoken, maybe even written, about the making of the album. How it came about, her relationship with Mingus who was at the end of his life at that point. He chose her to do this album and was involved right up until the point his health deteriorated too much. I think he died before it was released and never heard the final result of their collaboration.

I haven't listened to it in a long time. I remember when it came out I was on the road in California, playing in San Francisco and up and down the coast. A member of the audience from the club in San Jose invited me to her beach house and played it for me. I hung out with her for a day or two and missed a party the rest of the band was at with a movie star or two. The name Valerie Perrine sticks out in my mind.

I should go back and listen to Mingus again.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

I usually listen to the live recording of Pork Pie Hat on Shadows & Light. I rarely listen to Mingus from start to finish. Charlie wanted her to use acoustic bass but of course Joni wanted Jaco. I can't even remember some of the other tunes.


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

starthrower said:


> I usually listen to the live recording of Pork Pie Hat on Shadows & Light. I rarely listen to Mingus from start to finish. Charlie wanted her to use acoustic bass but of course Joni wanted Jaco. I can't even remember some of the other tunes.


Yeah, I was thinking as I was listening an upright would have been nicer. I even thought of Chuck Domanico would have been a logical choice. He worked with her on _Hejira_ and was living in L.A. at the time, and had a great upright sound. The album holds up, IMO.

Listening to it reminded of some other records from around that time - Roger Kellaway's cello quartet and Carmen McCrae at the Great American Music Hall was a good live gig.


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## regenmusic (Oct 23, 2014)

Wow, Joni is winning. It's not surprising in some ways and in some ways it is. I never was a big fan of Dylan but I really liked the melody of Lay Lady Lay and he had a couple other songs with strong melodies. But Joni constantly could write great melodies. The song Help Me is just one examples of how gorgeous she could write, as well as Circle Game, Coyote, and Amelia. Truly timeless.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

Ranking the Bob Dylan albums.
https://consequenceofsound.net/2017/03/ranking-bob-dylan-from-worst-to-best/

I'm listening to Blood On The Tracks for the first time in many years. Did Dylan ever make another album with this many great songs?


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## tdc (Jan 17, 2011)

This one is a tie for me. I think both are excellent lyricists, Dylan gets the edge there by a hair, Joni is more unique and advanced as a musician. Dylan had a knack for writing 'catchier' songs I think. So, yes I'll call it a draw.


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## tdc (Jan 17, 2011)

In the general population I suspect Dylan would win in this contest. The fact Joni is leading on this forum I think is indicative of the fact that the people here (classical music fans) are generally more interested in music over lyrics.


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

tdc said:


> In the general population I suspect Dylan would win in this contest. The fact Joni is leading on this forum I think is indicative of the fact that the people here (classical music fans) are generally more interested in music over lyrics.


I wasn't going to post it, but what you say also struck me from the outset of looking at this poll.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

No doubt! This historic video has over 39,000,000 views.


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

There is a new Joni Mitchell box of early performances of folk material

*Joni Mitchell Archives - Volume 1: The Early Years (1963-1967) *






Not a fan - Dylan was much more compelling performing these songs.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

I think that's the first in a series of forthcoming boxes.


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## TwoFlutesOneTrumpet (Aug 31, 2011)

Dylan was a terrible musician. Great poet but terrible musician. If we're comparing music then Mitchell by a landslide.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

He's not a great poet, he's a songwriter. Tens of millions of people start out playing simple open position folk chords on guitar yet there's only one Dylan who came up with all those great songs.


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## TwoFlutesOneTrumpet (Aug 31, 2011)

starthrower said:


> He's not a great poet, he's a songwriter. Tens of millions of people start out playing simple open position folk chords on guitar yet there's only one Dylan who came up with all those great songs.


But all of his songs suck as music.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

TwoFlutesOneTrumpet said:


> But all of his songs suck as music.


They have vocal melodies that connect with people. That's all that matters. It's not jazz or classical music. And as we've seen, greater musicians can take this raw material and transform it into even more powerful music. Hendrix, The Byrds, etc.


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## TwoFlutesOneTrumpet (Aug 31, 2011)

starthrower said:


> They have vocal melodies that connect with people. That's all that matters. It's not jazz or classical music. And as we've seen, greater musicians can take this raw material and transform it into even more powerful music. Hendrix, The Byrds, etc.


Well, I guess I'm not one of the people that connects with Dylan's vocal melodies.


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

TwoFlutesOneTrumpet said:


> Dylan was a terrible musician. Great poet but terrible musician. If we're comparing music then Mitchell by a landslide.


I don't agree. Dylan was a very good musician within the style of roots/traditional music. His guitar and harmonica playing was above average for this style and his singing is very effective for the roots-folk style. He is certainly as good if not more accomplished than Woody Guthrie and others who were the primary practitioners of this style.

My basic response to your kind of criticism is "compared to what?" I listen to a lot of this kind of music, what you can find on the Harry Smith Anthology of America Folk Music and you'll find that Bod Dylan on his early records is a good example of the kind of musicianship found there.

Maybe you just don't appreciate this kind of music very much and are not comfortable with the gritty, hard-edged, "high lonesome" mountain style. Something prettier is more your speed, like Joni Mitchell.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

SanAntone said:


> There is a new Joni Mitchell box of early performances of folk material
> 
> *Joni Mitchell Archives - Volume 1: The Early Years (1963-1967) *
> 
> ...


Hauntingly beautiful, but not something I would come back to. I have similar feelings with Gordon Lightfoot.


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

starthrower said:


> They have vocal melodies that connect with people. That's all that matters. It's not jazz or classical music. And as we've seen, greater musicians can take this raw material and transform it into even more powerful music. Hendrix, The Byrds, etc.


Actually I prefer the original versions instead of the Byrds or Hendrix. Have you listened to the music that inspired Dylan and countless others form the folk revival period?

This is where that entire phenomenon came from:

_The Anthology of American Folk Music_ is a six-album compilation released in 1952 by Folkways Records (catalogue FP 251, FP 252, and FP 253), comprising eighty-four American folk, blues and country music recordings that were originally issued from 1926 to 1933. Experimental film maker *Harry Smith* compiled the music from his personal collection of 78 rpm records. The album is famous due to its role as a touchstone for the American folk music revival in the 1950s and 1960s. The Anthology was released for compact disc by Smithsonian Folkways Recordings on August 19, 1997.

View attachment 145214


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

TwoFlutesOneTrumpet said:


> Dylan was a terrible musician. Great poet but terrible musician. If we're comparing music then Mitchell by a landslide.


If we look at the whole thing, the poetry, the singing, the music, and put music theory aside and just look at it in the realm of pop music, he is a great musician.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

Speaking of the greatness of Dylan, look how uncomfortable Donovan becomes in the presence of Dylan:


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

SanAntone said:


> I
> 
> Maybe you just don't appreciate this kind of music very much and are not comfortable with the gritty, hard-edged, "high lonesome" mountain style. Something prettier is more your speed, like Joni Mitchell.


I can enjoy both. I don't make comparisons. Dylan is closer to the folk/protest song tradition. That's what inspired him and that's how he started out. And Joni was never gonna live in that world. She's immersed in her own world and her lyrics bare that out. And she obviously has more instrumental facility which allows her to take the music in a more sophisticated direction.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

SanAntone said:


> Actually I prefer the original versions instead of the Byrds or Hendrix. Have you listened to the music that inspired Dylan and countless others form the folk revival period?
> View attachment 145214


Not extensively but I'm obviously aware of it. My point was any song can be turned into a sophisticated arrangement. I too prefer Dylan's first three albums. And I love Blood On The Tracks. But I prefer not to analyze too much because it's tough to pinpoint any one element in music or a song that captivates me.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

TwoFlutesOneTrumpet said:


> Well, I guess I'm not one of the people that connects with Dylan's vocal melodies.


That's fine. Millions love Springsteen and Van Morrison but I've never been much of a fan. It's simply a matter of taste.


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

starthrower said:


> I can enjoy both. I don't make comparisons. Dylan is closer to the folk/protest song tradition. That's what inspired him and that's how he started out. And Joni was never gonna live in that world. She's immersed in her own world and her lyrics bare that out. And she obviously has more instrumental facility which allows her to take the music in a more sophisticated direction.


I also like them both, but if pressed to choose for the mythological desert island I'd choose Dylan.

You keep using the word "sophisticated" or "sophistication" in reference to others besides Dylan. I think you are responding to what I would call surface sophistication, i.e. more complicated harmonies and arrangements. Whereas I perceive a sophistication in even the crudest performance by an illiterate mountain musician, or Dylan who was not illiterate but was influenced by that style and taught himself how to perform it.

It is something I've seen occur on this forum, a classical music forum, where the priorities found in classical music are illogically applied to other genres or styles which are found wanting because they do not exhibit the kind of surface sophistication found in classical music. Classical music has another actual deeper sophistication as well, but I think many people are describing how Dylan's singing is poor compared to a trained voice or someone like Joni Mitchell or Frank Sinatra.

Blues singers were another huge influence on Dylan. It is a rough, gritty, style - about as far from the sound of a trained voice as one can get. But it is very expressive and captures the blues and mountain style extremely well, and much preferable to a trained singer performing these same songs.


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## Strange Magic (Sep 14, 2015)

SanAntone, your desert island hypothetical broke my internal tie and I chose, like you, Dylan. But after my nightly auditing of Dylan on the island, I will weep that Joni could not (by the terms of the poll) be there with him to be the Yang to his Yin......


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

Someone who possesses vital musical skills and who has worked hard to play an instrument at a high level is not what I would call surface qualities. And someone like Joni Mitchell with her ear, phrasing, timing, and song craft is anything but superficial. And I disagree that unschooled, primitive musicians are necessarily sophisticated. It varies greatly. I've heard Irish and Bulgarian folk musicians and blue grass musicians who can play rings around Bob Dylan. And I'm not talking strictly technique but they can play in a group setting at a level Dylan could never approach. To my ears Blind Blake is far more accomplished than John Lee Hooker. Many jazz musicians were self taught but can perform and improvise at a very high level. But when it comes to a lot of blues and folk I want directness and sincerity. The music doesn't need sophisticated harmony. It needs personality and and the ability to communicate life experiences.


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

starthrower said:


> Someone who possesses vital musical skills and who has worked hard to play an instrument at a high level is not what I would call surface qualities. And someone like Joni Mitchell with her ear, phrasing, timing, and song craft is anything but superficial. And I disagree that unschooled, primitive musicians are necessarily sophisticated. It varies greatly. I've heard Irish and Bulgarian folk musicians and blue grass musicians who can play rings around Bob Dylan. And I'm not talking strictly technique but they can play in a group setting at a level Dylan could never approach. To my ears Blind Blake is far more accomplished than John Lee Hooker. Many jazz musicians were self taught but can perform and improvise at a very high level.


I think that with sophistication SanAntone is talking about the way Dylan was able to put a spell on a audience and writing memorable songs even with a very basic technique, chord progressions and a weak ugly voice. I agree that's an art with hidden subtleties, since most people playing clichè chord progressions with a very limited voice with a rudimentary technique on the gutar would be unsufferable after a very short while, and he produced instead memorable and intense music.
(then of course I think that Joni Mitchell was a marvelous singer, the ending of this Woodstock for instance with that yodel is transcendent as the best Coltrane could be


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

norman bates said:


> I think that with sophistication SanAntone is talking about the way Dylan was able to put a spell on a audience and writing memorable songs even with a very basic technique, chord progressions and a weak ugly voice. I agree that's an art with hidden subtleties, since most people playing clichè chord progressions with a very limited voice with a rudimentary technique on the gutar would be unsufferable after a very short while, and he produced instead memorable and intense music.


Yes, this is part of being human. And Dylan's personal and unique qualities. And it's for these reasons and others that I mentioned in an earlier post that I don't try to analyze too critically about why a certain performance or musician moves me or connects. There's a bit of mystery to it. A chemistry that can't be concocted. It just happens naturally.


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

The sophistication I am referring to is the expressive depth in a voice singing a traditional song in a raw and unadorned manner. 

I like Joni Mitchell; many of her songs are brilliantly written and performed, but her music is more pop than Dylan. By "surface sophistication" I am talking about her guitar parts which are somewhat lush (maximizing open strings with alternative tunings and non-standard chords, and her almost operatic vocal style) and "pretty" as opposed to the raw quality of Dylan's and most mountain or blues musicians. 

Also, Joni Mitchell went off in a studio technological direction which made her music even more "pop."


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## regenmusic (Oct 23, 2014)

SanAntone said:


> The sophistication I am referring to is the expressive depth in a voice singing a traditional song in a raw and unadorned manner.
> 
> I like Joni Mitchell; many of her songs are brilliantly written and performed, but her music is more pop than Dylan. By "surface sophistication" I am talking about her guitar parts which are somewhat lush (maximizing open strings with alternative tunings and non-standard chords, and her almost operatic vocal style) and "pretty" as opposed to the raw quality of Dylan's and most mountain or blues musicians.
> 
> Also, Joni Mitchell went off in a studio technological direction which made her music even more "pop."


She kind of developed a more "prog" or jazz audience with her works with Jaco. When I think of pop, I think of like what the Talking Heads or Peter Gabriel did. Joni's works with Jaco were not the pop hits that she had in her earlier years.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

SanAntone said:


> The sophistication I am referring to is the expressive depth in a voice singing a traditional song in a raw and unadorned manner.


And Bob Dylan is not the first singer that comes to my mind. I think of someone like Son House or Howlin' Wolf.


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## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

SanAntone said:


> The sophistication I am referring to is the expressive depth in a voice singing a traditional song in a raw and unadorned manner.
> 
> I like Joni Mitchell; many of her songs are brilliantly written and performed, but her music is more pop than Dylan. By "surface sophistication" I am talking about her guitar parts which are somewhat lush (maximizing open strings with alternative tunings and non-standard chords, and her almost operatic vocal style) and "pretty" as opposed to the raw quality of Dylan's and most mountain or blues musicians.
> 
> Also, Joni Mitchell went off in a studio technological direction which made her music even more "pop."


Some Dylan-like sort of singing. Leadbelly actually influenced Dylan the most, according to Dylan himself. Yes, I love that gritty style. I love that Leadbelly song the most by far. I agree there is some sophistication, and a whole lot of Soul.


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

starthrower said:


> And Bob Dylan is not the first singer that comes to my mind. I think of someone like Son House or Howlin' Wolf.


Of course, and those were some of the artists who inspired and influenced Dylan. More specifically, *Jesse Fuller*, *Bukka White* and *Blind Lemon Jefferson* were direct influences and of whose songs he included on his first record. Also, "In My time of Dyin'" was recorded in a variant form by *Blind Willie Johnson* as "Jesus Make Up My Dying Bed".

Aside from blues musicians old time songs also were included on his first record, "Man of Constant Sorrow" recorded by *The Stanley Brothers* and probably where Dylan heard it.

Dylan's depth of knowledge of this kind of material is comparable to a scholar's in the amount of research he did collecting songs and learning to perform them in an expert fashion.


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## GucciManeIsTheNewWebern (Jul 29, 2020)

starthrower said:


> I don't see Joni as losing her way. She kept progressing and exploring new ideas.* Even an album like Dog Eat Dog to my ears is loaded with great songs despite the production values*. Of her early albums I'm a big fan of Ladies Of The Canyon. That album still sounds amazing and fresh and of course the songs are superb, imo.


I disagree with the bolded statement. It think every studio album post Don Juan's Reckless Daughter is either complete trash [Wild Things Run Fast, Dog Eat dog] or decent but not up to par with prior albums which admittrdly set a high bar [Chalk Mark in a Rain Storm, Turbulent Indigo, Taming the Tiger]. The post drop off in quality is really blatant IMO and I dont hear any redeeming qualities in Dog Eat Dog


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## Kieran (Aug 24, 2010)

I'm like a staggered man staggering like old Stagger Lee. Joni is winning? Here's the science: I found this on the web, a photo of Dylan in a room with songwriters who are better than him:


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## Kieran (Aug 24, 2010)

Barbebleu said:


> I can't vote 'cos I love both. To misquote Dr. Johnson, "He who is tired of Joni and Bob, is tired of life".
> New Joni Archive box out at the end of the month. Yay!


Bob has these kinds of things out as a matter of routine. His legacy arrives with his new stuff. He's unmatched in this regard, giving us outtakes, alternate versions, unreleased songs by the bucketload, while still releasing new stuff of the calibre of Rough and Rowdy Ways. He's a perpetually complex, flexible and curious force. Even live, his old songs are rewritten into something new...


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

I've started to collect the Bootleg Series. The 3 disc vols. 1-3 is a wonderful collection spanning 1961 thru the late 80s. And I've ordered the Rolling Thunder Revue 2 CD set which compiles some great performances of raucous band numbers and acoustic tunes from some east coast shows in 1975. There are larger deluxe editions which are fairly expensive but some of the them are available for listening on Spotify. I got a used copy of the 1966 Manchester concert at a local store. I'll probably pick up a couple more before I call it quits.


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

starthrower said:


> I've started to collect the Bootleg Series. The 3 disc vols. 1-3 is a wonderful collection spanning 1961 thru the late 80s. And I've ordered the Rolling Thunder Revue 2 CD set which compiles some great performances of raucous band numbers and acoustic tunes from some east coast shows in 1975. There are larger deluxe editions which are fairly expensive but some of the them are available for listening on Spotify. I got a used copy of the 1966 Manchester concert at a local store. I'll probably pick up a couple more before I call it quits.


For me the best of the Bootleg series is the complete basement tapes box. Also the _Another Portrait_ stripped down tracks are excellent.

I didn't care for the Rolling Thunder box, it was several different concerts of the same set over and over - none of which were very good, IMO. The box of the period that covered _John Wesley Harding_ (my favorite Dylan record) and _Nashville Skyline_ is pretty good - but a little disappointing. I was hoping the duets with Johnny Cash would have been better.


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## Kieran (Aug 24, 2010)

starthrower said:


> I've started to collect the Bootleg Series. The 3 disc vols. 1-3 is a wonderful collection spanning 1961 thru the late 80s. And I've ordered the Rolling Thunder Revue 2 CD set which compiles some great performances of raucous band numbers and acoustic tunes from some east coast shows in 1975. There are larger deluxe editions which are fairly expensive but some of the them are available for listening on Spotify. I got a used copy of the 1966 Manchester concert at a local store. I'll probably pick up a couple more before I call it quits.


Tell-Tale Signs is a great one too, covering 1989 to 2006, I think it's volume?


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

Kieran said:


> Tell-Tale Signs is a great one too, covering 1989 to 2006, I think it's volume?


That's another one I'll be picking up.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

SanAntone said:


> For me the best of the Bootleg series is the complete basement tapes box. Also the _Another Portrait_ stripped down tracks are excellent.
> 
> I didn't care for the Rolling Thunder box, it was several different concerts of the same set over and over - none of which were very good, IMO. The box of the period that covered _John Wesley Harding_ (my favorite Dylan record) and _Nashville Skyline_ is pretty good - but a little disappointing. I was hoping the duets with Johnny Cash would have been better.


I skipped that one because I read that the sessions with Cash are pretty weak. And I did pick up Another Portrait. I didn't get the Rolling Thunder box, just the 2 disc compilation.


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## NoCoPilot (Nov 9, 2020)

They were both great songwriters, in their youth, but Joni could sing.

She's STILL a great songwriter.


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

Joni’s Archive box set is pretty good. If you are a mad fan like me you will likely already have a fair chunk of it from bootlegs, particularly the live stuff, but there are some rare gems. There are a couple of weird ones and she does a very poor, by her standards, version of Dowie Dens of Yarrow. In her very early years you can hear a strong Joan Baez influence but as she matured she soon found her own unique voice.


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## eljr (Aug 8, 2015)

GucciManeIsTheNewWebern said:


> Sort of a silly thread, I know, but I'm interested to hear where people stand on this question. I like both, but I prefer Joni Mitchell by a long shot. Her voice is unparalleled and enables her to do way more melodically and I find her more musically interesting (such as her complex chords and harmonies) and far more inventive throughout the different periods of her output compared to Dylan.


To me this is like comparing apples and asparagus. These two have have about nothing in common. 
Joni has a beautiful voice, Bob's voice is as bad as it gets. 
Bob wrote some amazing stuff, Joni does more conventional stuff.


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

eljr said:


> To me this is like comparing apples and asparagus. These two have have about nothing in common.
> Joni has a beautiful voice, Bob's voice is as bad as it gets.
> Bob wrote some amazing stuff, Joni mostly plays other peoples stuff.


You are confused. Joni Mitchell writes all of her own material - and Bob Dylan does not have a voice "as bad as it gets."


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## eljr (Aug 8, 2015)

SanAntone said:


> You are confused. Joni Mitchell writes all of her own material - and Bob Dylan does not have a voice "as bad as it gets."


indeed, Joni does write some wonderful stuff, I stand corrected and already had adjusted my post but Bob's voice is arguably the worst voice ever recorded. Certainly the worst of all successful artists.


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

eljr said:


> indeed, Joni does write some wonderful stuff, I stand corrected and already had adjusted my post but Bob's voice is arguably the worst voice ever recorded. Certainly the worst of all successful artists.


An opinion based on priorities which I do not share. But it is silly to argue over matters of taste.


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## Strange Magic (Sep 14, 2015)

eljr said:


> indeed, Joni does write some wonderful stuff, I stand corrected and already had adjusted my post but Bob's voice is arguably the worst voice ever recorded. Certainly the worst of all successful artists.


Billy Corgan and J.Mascis might try for runner-up positions for "bad" voices but, like Dylan, it is always the overall effect of the individual song and then the cumulative effect that determines what we like and why.


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

eljr said:


> indeed, Joni does write some wonderful stuff, I stand corrected and already had adjusted my post but Bob's voice is arguably the worst voice ever recorded. Certainly the worst of all successful artists.


Dylan has certainly a ugly voice, but it's great how he use it. Dylan is a great singer with a very bad voice. It's like with actors: you can be a great actor even being ugly, and handsome men can be terrible actors. It's the same with singers.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

I love the young Dylan's voice. The older Dylan with his coarse, raspy growl is harder for me to endure. I don't have any albums after Oh Mercy.


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## Kieran (Aug 24, 2010)

starthrower said:


> I love the young Dylan's voice. The older Dylan with his coarse, raspy growl is harder for me to endure. I don't have any albums after Oh Mercy.


Really? Time Out of Mind, Love and Theft, Tempest, Rough and Rowdy Ways, they're great records, beautifully sung, as well. As he's gotten older, he's found ways to accommodate his voice to the circumstances, and so he's using a low, character-actor growl. Think of a melodic Lee Marvin, and it's that kind of idea. The only time I grimace is during a song like Pay in Blood on Tempest, where I wish he'd gargled and cleared his throat before he sang, you know?


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

Barbebleu said:


> Does anyone actually care? I see being banned hasn't improved your manner!





starthrower said:


> I can see Million is going to turn this enjoyable thread in to a pseudo philosophical psychobabble experience.


For rock fans here, anything more involved than "Joni's voice is pretty and Dylan's is not" is heavy pseudo psychological psychobabble. You people actually use such shallow criteria in assessing these two great artists?
Saying "Dylan can't sing" is like saying "Matisse couldn't draw."


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## eljr (Aug 8, 2015)

norman bates said:


> Dylan has certainly a ugly voice, but it's great how he use it. Dylan is a great singer with a very bad voice. It's like with actors: you can be a great actor even being ugly, and handsome men can be terrible actors. It's the same with singers.


I like how you interrupt his voice. Well done.

I love Bob. Top 5 artists of all time but his voice is not a thing of beauty but it does work, agree.


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## eljr (Aug 8, 2015)

Strange Magic said:


> Billy Corgan and J.Mascis might try for runner-up positions for "bad" voices but, like Dylan, it is always the overall effect of the individual song and then the cumulative effect that determines what we like and why.


agree,

I like him. I just know he does not have a good voice.

Some folks I don't like but I know their voice is excellent.


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## eljr (Aug 8, 2015)

SanAntone said:


> An opinion based on priorities which I do not share. But it is silly to argue over matters of taste.


I think it more than taste.

i feel confident we could qualify and quantify vocal prowess and Bob would be waiting at the alter.

Plus, you think I don't like his him or his voice. Very wrong.

I am simply separating my personal attraction to his music from my intellectual understanding of what constitutes a good voice.

Peace


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## eljr (Aug 8, 2015)

millionrainbows said:


> Saying "Dylan can't sing" is like saying "Matisse couldn't draw."


you honestly don't think that if you qualified and quantified what constitutes a good voice Bob would fall by the wayside rather quickly?

I find it very interesting that I stand alone on this subject...

Such is life

peace


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## Kieran (Aug 24, 2010)

eljr said:


> you honestly don't think that *if you qualified and quantified what constitutes a good *voice Bob would fall by the wayside rather quickly?
> 
> I find it very interesting that I stand alone on this subject...
> 
> ...


Why don't you do that for us and let us see?


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

millionrainbows said:


> You people actually use such shallow criteria in assessing these two great artists?


They are only doing it to get you banned again. :lol:


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

Folk music has a superficial aspect, especially as it emerged in the 1960s, as a genre which extolls the ideal of the "beautiful" folk singer voice: Judy Collins, Joan Baez, Peter Paul & Mary (who "prettified" Dylan songs), The Mamas & the Papas, John Denver, etc...Peter, Paul & Mary were taken even further by Albert Grossman into a "prettified image" of appeal. The lovely blonde Mary, who wrote no songs and simply sang & smiled, offset Peter and Paul's obvious Jewishness.

Joni Mitchell perfectly exemplifies this superficial ideal. Her voice is beautiful, no doubt, but to use this as a criterion for comparing her to Dylan seems superficial and ignores the fact that she wrote her own songs, and was a good guitarist and pianist.

Dylan is more like an old bluesman, with a gruff voice and 'primitive' execution on guitar. I think he relates more to Blind Willie McTell and Sleepy John Estes than he does any other folk artists. That's why he left the folk world and went into a more blues/rock area.

Joni Mitchell? She has no "blues" in her at all. I remember her line about bands with "negro affectations" from Hissing of Summer Lawns. She's a Canadian. She can't relate to blues, or Mike Bloomfield, or Dylan's bluesy side. She exemplifies the "beautiful voiced-folk singer."

She did get into jazz, though. I wonder if she did the Waldo with Charles Mingus, or at least gratified him in some other way? I heard that she was quite prolific in that sense.

I don't like what she had to say about Jaco Pastorius, after the great bass-playing he contributed to her work. She had an inflated, overly precious view of herself, especially evidenced by her "tantrum" in front of a large audience (I forget where) for not being quiet and 'respecting her art' with humble silence and awe.


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

eljr said:


> you honestly don't think that if you qualified and quantified what constitutes a good voice Bob would fall by the wayside rather quickly?


I consider that kind of criticism to be trivial and evidence of a complete misunderstanding of Dylan's style. Dylan's voice is perfect for the kind of music he writes and performs.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

millionrainbows said:


> For rock fans here, anything more involved than "Joni's voice is pretty and Dylan's is not" is heavy pseudo psychological psychobabble. You people actually use such shallow criteria in assessing these two great artists?
> Saying "Dylan can't sing" is like saying "Matisse couldn't draw."


As usual your response has nothing to do with the comments you are addressing. Neither one of us said Dylan can't sing. I listen for enjoyment and edification, not to critically assess the artist. That's not what listening is for unless you're a critic. I have 15 Dylan CDs so obviously I don't mind his singing. You can get off your pedagogical high horse and stop instructing everyone. We get what's important about Dylan. He has something say and it resonates with people. It doesn't require a dissertation to understand.


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## Strange Magic (Sep 14, 2015)

millionrainbows said:


> Folk music has a superficial aspect, especially as it emerged in the 1960s, as a genre which extolls the ideal of the "beautiful" folk singer voice: Judy Collins, Joan Baez, Peter Paul & Mary (who "prettified" Dylan songs), The Mamas & the Papas, John Denver, etc...Peter, Paul & Mary were taken even further by Albert Grossman into a "prettified image" of appeal. The lovely blonde Mary, who wrote no songs and simply sang & smiled, offset Peter and Paul's obvious Jewishness.
> 
> Joni Mitchell perfectly exemplifies this superficial ideal. Her voice is beautiful, no doubt, but to use this as a criterion for comparing her to Dylan seems superficial and ignores the fact that she wrote her own songs, and was a good guitarist and pianist.
> 
> ...


Paul Stookey's "obvious Jewishness"? Not so much--look it up. It may be that, by happenstance alone, people with smooth, clear voices were drawn to folk music in the 1960s, and that actually their attachment to it was authentic.

Dylan being more like an old bluesman is accurate; vocal smoothness never was a major factor in the evaluation of blues singing. In that sense the Blues is very much akin to cante flamenco.


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

millionrainbows said:


> Joni Mitchell['s] ... voice is beautiful, no doubt, but to use this as a criterion for comparing her to Dylan seems superficial and ... she wrote her own songs, and was a good guitarist and pianist.
> 
> Dylan is more like an old bluesman, with a gruff voice and 'primitive' execution on guitar. I think he relates more to Blind Willie McTell and Sleepy John Estes than he does any other folk artists. That's why he left the folk world and went into a more blues/rock area.


I agree with what you wrote here (as edited) - and much of what you wrote about Dylan, and more, I posted previously in this thread.

There appears to be a disconnect with several members who are applying an alien criteria (i.e. coming from some other place than an understanding and appreciation of the styles he is a product of) for judging Dylan's voice and art. Hence, I feel it is futile to continue to debate those naysayers on this point.


----------



## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

starthrower said:


> You can get off your pedagogical high horse and stop instructing everyone. We get what's important about Dylan. He has something say and it resonates with people. It doesn't require a dissertation to understand.


Not as evidenced by this thread, which seems shallow and meaningless. All you seem to want to do is express your anger at me. I'm happy to have brought this thread into a deeper level of discourse. I can't help it if you're jealous of me.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

millionrainbows said:


> Saying "Dylan can't sing" is like saying "Matisse couldn't draw."





eljr said:


> you honestly don't think that if you qualified and quantified what constitutes a good voice Bob would fall by the wayside rather quickly? I find it very interesting that I stand alone on this subject...





Kieran said:


> Why don't you do that for us and let us see?


Peter, Paul, & Mary have already done that for us. :lol:


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

millionrainbows said:


> Not as evidenced by this thread, which seems shallow and meaningless. All you seem to want to do is express your anger at me.


It's not anger but you have a tendency to be condescending. People listen to popular music and certain artists for their own reasons. It doesn't require some deep intellectual or philosophical investigation. Why is your way right and others' shallow?


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

starthrower said:


> It's not anger but you have a tendency to be condescending. *People listen to popular music and certain artists for their own reasons. It doesn't require some deep intellectual or philosophical investigation.* Why is your way right and others' shallow?


Well I don't know about you, buddy, but I consider both Joni Mitchell and Bob Dylan to be art of the highest kind. I think you are trivializing "popular" music as being something that doesn't require very much from the listener.

While people are free to approach Joni Mitchell and Dylan ('popular' music) in any way they choose, I am a person who takes it to be "high art" and deserving of our highest consideration.

Don't accuse me of being on a "pedagogical high horse" for that.

It seems as though _you_ are being _condescending_ to the participants of this thread. I'm not going to lower my standards, or assume that other members are shallow when two artists such as Joni Mitchell and Bob Dylan are discussed. I expect them to rise to the occasion.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

I'm not trivializing anything. I'm an attentive listener. But you feel the need to instruct others and tell them they are shallow. It's not necessary. If people are listening to Mitchell and Dylan they obviously appreciate the substance in their art. Otherwise they'd just go for some Kiss albums. If others don't meet your so called high standards you'll have to live and let live.


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

millionrainbows said:


> Peter, Paul & Mary were taken even further by Albert Grossman into a "prettified image" of appeal. The lovely blonde Mary, who wrote no songs and simply sang & smiled, offset Peter and Paul's obvious Jewishness.


Cut out the KKK-type crap.


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

millionrainbows said:


> Not as evidenced by this thread, which seems shallow and meaningless. All you seem to want to do is express your anger at me. I'm happy to have brought this thread into a deeper level of discourse. I can't help it if you're jealous of me.


I can''t imagine anyone being jealous of a person who apparently doesn't have the sense to refrain from being banned multiple times. You might consider yourself a member in good standing of the intellectual elite; I think of you as a repeat offender.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

starthrower said:


> I'm not trivializing anything. I'm an attentive listener. But you feel the need to instruct others and tell them they are shallow. It's not necessary. If people are listening to Mitchell and Dylan they obviously appreciate the substance in their art. Otherwise they'd just go for some Kiss albums. If others don't meet your so called high standards you'll have to live and let live.


You're assuming a lot about the other listeners. Don't castigate me for articulating some deeper points than we have seen thus far.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

millionrainbows said:


> You're assuming a lot about the other listeners.


I already stated earlier that listeners have their own reasons for being attracted to certain artists. I made a general statement. I'm not assuming a list of specifics.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

Bulldog said:


> I can''t imagine anyone being jealous of a person who apparently doesn't have the sense to refrain from being banned multiple times. You might consider yourself a member in good standing of the intellectual elite; I think of you as a repeat offender.


Why should that bother me? You don't have any power to ban anyone.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

starthrower said:


> I already stated earlier that listeners have their own reasons for being attracted to certain artists. I made a general statement. I'm not assuming a list of specifics.


It sounded distinctly condescending to me. I'm taking the conversation into specifics. Would you rather "keep it light?"

BTW, I have my own reasons for listening to The Turtles and The Monkees, and a ton of ideas and verbiage on the subject. That's just the kind of guy I am.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

millionrainbows said:


> It sounded distinctly condescending to me. I'm taking the conversation into specifics. Would you rather "keep it light?"


I don't care either way. I'm outta here for the afternoon.


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## eljr (Aug 8, 2015)

millionrainbows said:


> I have my own reasons for listening to The Turtles and The Monkees, and a ton of ideas and verbiage on the subject. That's just the kind of guy I am.


LOL..............:lol:


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

millionrainbows said:


> Why should that bother me? You don't have any power to ban anyone.


Stop being obtuse. You have the power to make sure you don't get banned. The odd thing is that you get repeatedly banned, then come back and do the same things that got you banned in the first place.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

Bulldog said:


> Stop being obtuse. You have the power to make sure you don't get banned. The odd thing is that you get repeatedly banned, then come back and do the same things that got you banned in the first place.


That's very nice, Mister Bulldog. Another cup of tea?


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

starthrower said:


> I don't care either way. I'm outta here for the afternoon.


Okay. As they say, don't let the door hit you...


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

millionrainbows said:


> Okay. As they say, don't let the door hit you...


It's already been slammed on you a few times but you keep coming back to shower us with your self important wisdom.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

starthrower said:


> It's already been slammed on you a few times but you keep coming back to shower us with your self important wisdom.


You mean because I have a mind and I use it? Because I'm not "dumbed down" like many Americans?


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

millionrainbows said:


> You mean because I have a mind and I use it? Because I'm not "dumbed down" like many Americans?


Use your mind, state your opinions but don't call others shallow that have a different opinion. Honestly this thread didn't start out as some super serious discussion on the artistic merits of the two songwriters. It was a simple question of who do you prefer? Many here like myself have been listening to both artists for decades. I find both compelling even though they possess varying levels of musical ability.


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

millionrainbows said:


> You mean because I have a mind and I use it?


You often misuse it.


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## Varick (Apr 30, 2014)

starthrower said:


> I love the young Dylan's voice. The older Dylan with his coarse, raspy growl is harder for me to endure. I don't have any albums after Oh Mercy.


This just proves different strokes for different folks. I find it the exact opposite. I dig Dylan's coarse and raspy voice. I think "Modern Times" is one of the best albums he ever did. But I love the voice he has now, albeit his Christmas & American Song Book albums.

V


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

starthrower said:


> Use your mind, state your opinions but don't call others shallow that have a different opinion. Honestly this thread didn't start out as some super serious discussion on the artistic merits of the two songwriters. It was a simple question of who do you prefer? Many here like myself have been listening to both artists for decades. I find both compelling even though they possess varying levels of musical ability.


Well pardon me for bringing some deeper meaning to the thread. This "appeal to simplicity" is like the aesthetic of Andy Warhol, who liked "pretty" things, and didn't want to "complicate" art by uncovering any deeper meaning in it.

I'll bet Joni Mitchell and Bob Dylan wouldn't appreciate their work being kept out of serious consideration as art, and simply relegated to the status of "Pop music" like you seem to want it.

In the end, Warhol's art is a celebration of the vulgar; a world where nothing is any higher than anything else, and Joni Mitchell is on the same level as The Monkees or the 1910 Fruitgum Company. A world where Bob Dylan is "too ugly" for consumers, and whose songs must be conveyed for consumption by Peter, Paul & Mary, The Turtles, and The Kingston Trio.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

Bulldog said:


> You often misuse it.


Look who woke up on the wrong side of the bed today! I'm flattered by the attention, but this thread is not about me; just ask starthrower.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

millionrainbows said:


> Well pardon me for bringing some deeper meaning to the thread. This "appeal to simplicity" is like the aesthetic of Andy Warhol, who liked "pretty" things, and didn't want to "complicate" art by uncovering any deeper meaning in it.
> 
> I'll bet Joni Mitchell and Bob Dylan wouldn't appreciate their work being kept out of serious consideration as art, and simply relegated to the status of "Pop music" like you seem to want it.


Your response has nothing to do with what I stated. Nobody is downplaying their art. I spoke of the temperament of this thread, not the seriousness or depth of their musical contribution. Why don't you go tell everybody that starts a lighthearted greatest this or greatest that thread how disrespectful they are? Because those are some of the most popular threads here for years. Pure opinion and nothing more. No, this thread is not about you and how superior your insights are about Dylan and Mitchell.


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

millionrainbows said:


> Well pardon me for bringing some deeper meaning to the thread. This "appeal to simplicity" is like the aesthetic of Andy Warhol, who liked "pretty" things, and didn't want to "complicate" art by uncovering any deeper meaning in it.
> 
> I'll bet Joni Mitchell and Bob Dylan wouldn't appreciate their work being kept out of serious consideration as art, and simply relegated to the status of "Pop music" like you seem to want it.
> 
> In the end, Warhol's art is a celebration of the vulgar; a world where nothing is any higher than anything else, and Joni Mitchell is on the same level as The Monkees or the 1910 Fruitgum Company. A world where Bob Dylan is "too ugly" for consumers, and whose songs must be conveyed for consumption by Peter, Paul & Mary, The Turtles, and The Kingston Trio.


Blah, blah, blah .... You sure like to "hear" yourself talk. There were a few people who made the superficial comment about Dylan's voice - but earlier in the thread there was a more interesting discussion.

Although I prefer Dylan over Mitchell, I do like them both and actually consider Mitchell an accomplished lyricist, and see that as her strength over her musical skill. Her way of telling stories with creative wordplay and rhyme skills is sometimes breathtaking and she's more consistent than Dylan.

But there is a gritty quality to Dylan's work which I enjoy more than Mitchell's prettiness, and I think will have a more lasting quality. He's written some songs that are far and away better than anything in Mitchell's catalog, better than anyone's, in fact. There is more depth to his work than Mitchell's, IMO.

I listen to Dylan about ten times more often than Mitchell - whose later synthesized work I don't care for. But her writing skill has to be acknowledged.


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## NoCoPilot (Nov 9, 2020)

SanAntone said:


> But there is a gritty quality to Dylan's work which I enjoy more than Mitchell's prettiness, and I think will have a more lasting quality. He's written some songs that are far and away better than anything in Mitchell's catalog, better than anyone's, in fact. There is more depth to his work than Mitchell's, IMO.


As someone who doesn't understand Dylan's appeal, perhaps you could enlighten me by posting one these "songs that are far and away better than anything in Mitchell's catalog"?


Joni Mitchell said:


> No regrets, coyote
> We just come from such different sets of circumstance
> I'm up all night in the studios
> And you're up early on your ranch
> ...


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

NoCoPilot said:


> As someone who doesn't understand Dylan's appeal, perhaps you could enlighten me by posting one these "songs that are far and away better than anything in Mitchell's catalog"?


Here's a few.

A Hard Rain's A-Gonna Fall
Visions of Johanna
It's Alright, Ma (I'm Only Bleeding)
It Takes a Lot to Laugh, It Takes a Train to Cry
I Shall Be Released
Just Like a Woman
Like a Rolling Stone
All Along the Watchtower

I'm sure every Dylan fan has their own list.


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## Flamme (Dec 30, 2012)

DK much about mitchell. I like many songs of dylan although he can be a bit pretentious at times...This one often describes my inner feelings...


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)




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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

Why does a list of top Dylan songs have to be touted as superior to Joni? Some of my favorites are love songs and others that are good, melodic tunes as opposed to the talked off stream of consciousness style. Songs like:

Love Minus Zero / No Limit
Tonight I'll Be Staying Here With You
Lay Lady Lay
Sweetheart Like You
My Back Pages

...and many others I won't bother listing.


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

starthrower said:


> Why does a list of top Dylan songs have to be touted as superior to Joni?


Because it is what I think. Why do you have a problem with that?



That said, Joni Mitchell has written some brilliant songs.


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## Guest (Nov 15, 2020)

millionrainbows said:


> Joni Mitchell? She has no "blues" in her at all. I remember her line about bands with "negro affectations" from Hissing of Summer Lawns. She's a Canadian.


Based on these photos she may indeed have at least a little "blues" in her...

























https://www.cnn.com/2015/02/11/entertainment/feat-joni-mitchell-black-man/index.html

*Joni Mitchell: I felt like a black man...
*
"The Canadian wisp of a singer feels she shares an affinity with black men. "When I see black men sitting, I have a tendency to go -- like I nod like I'm a brother," she told New York magazine. "I really feel an affinity because I have experienced being a black guy on several occasions."

She claimed it started with comments by her dentist. "One day he said, 'Oh, you've got the worst bite I've ever seen. You have teeth like a Negro male.' "
It got her thinking about casual racism, and that inspired her to play with the cover of her 1977 album, "Don Juan's Reckless Daughter." The cover features a young child, Mitchell as herself and someone who looks like a black man.
"That's me. The black guy in the front."

What? Mitchell said that, inspired by someone walking down Hollywood Boulevard, she dressed up -- in blackface -- like the man for a Halloween party. It caused such a ruckus, the singer said.
Later, she says, she was annoyed by the photographer shooting her album cover, so she decided to throw him for a loop. "It was a great revenge. That was all to get his a**. To freak him out. I had to keep him on the defensive."

https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-37781800

*When Joni Mitchell wore blackface for Halloween...*

"Joni's alter-ego, who she christened "Art Nouveau", would appear on the cover of her next album, Don Juan's Reckless Daughter, released in 1977, and she would intermittently slip into this guise over the next few years. To this day, many record-owners have no idea that the strutting black dandy on that sleeve is Joni herself."

"So why had Joni, with the world at her feet, chosen this particular, highly questionable, blackface guise?

A decade or so later she put it down to a chance encounter that occurred when she was out costume-shopping for the party.

"I was walking down Hollywood Boulevard (when) a black guy walked by me with a diddy-bop kind of step, and said in the most wonderful way, 'Lookin' good, sister, lookin' gooood'," she told Q Magazine in 1988.

"His spirit was infectious and I thought, I'll go as him. I bought the make-up, the wig… sleazy hat and a sleazy suit and that night I went to a Halloween party and nobody knew it was me."

http://www.untoldsound.com/the-unsound-validation-of-joni-mitchells-blackface-pimp-persona/

*The Unsound Validation of Joni Mitchell's Blackface Pimp Persona...*

"I was walking down Hollywood Boulevard, in search of a costume for a Halloween party when I saw this black guy with a beautiful spirit walking with a bob… As he went by me he turned around and said, "Ummmm, mmm… looking good sister, lookin' good!" Well I just felt so good after he said that. It was as if this sipirit went into me. So I started walking like him. I bought a black wig, I bought sideburns, a moustache. I bought some pancake makeup. It was like 'I'm goin' as him!'

For the record... Joni Mitchell is an attractive Caucasian English-Canadian woman who is both wealthy and talented.... She's also completely totally f****** nuts... and meaner than a snake - seriously... She's been living in the United States since 1965 and she has dual citizenship... oh... and she's not now nor has she ever actually been a black pimp... and she was never even much of a Canadian for that matter...


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

I spent 30 years in Nashville, had publishing deals and made money songwriting - no big hits but I got some cuts and still receive ASCAP royalties. 

What's funny, neither Dylan nor Mitchell were mentioned much by songwriters as the ones they looked up to, Dylan was more highly regarded than Mitchell because of stylistic reasons. Mitchell was too far removed from the roots world. 

Townes Van Zandt, John Prine, Guy Clarke, Lucinda Williams, Hugh Prestwood, Kris Kristofferson, Willie Nelson, Bob McDill, Max D. Barnes, Harlan Howard - these were the songwriters we thought wrote great songs. Also, Hank Williams, Merle Haggard, Tom T. Hall, Leon Payne, to name a few from the previous generation

Dylan called Townes Van Zandt the greatest songwriter he'd ever heard.


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## NoCoPilot (Nov 9, 2020)

SanAntone said:


> Here's a few. I'm sure every Dylan fan has their own list.


I was hoping you could quote me some lyrics, show what all the fuss was about.


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## NoCoPilot (Nov 9, 2020)

Dylan and the Band said:


> She's also completely totally nuts.


You think Dylan's "Christian period" isn't nuckin' futz?


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

NoCoPilot said:


> I was hoping you could quote me some lyrics, show what all the fuss was about.


*Go here*. All the songs I listed are there with lyrics.


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## NoCoPilot (Nov 9, 2020)

SanAntone said:


> *Go here*. All the songs I listed are there with lyrics.


Oh, I am sadly familiar with the songs you listed. I just don't see what you see in them. I was hoping you could explain.


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

NoCoPilot said:


> Oh, I am sadly familiar with the songs you listed. I just don't see what you see in them. I was hoping you could explain.


If you don't see it, then I can't help you. Much of it is a matter of taste, but for me Joni Mitchell is very good but Dylan is genius.

I am not interested in a lyric-slinging contest. Plus a song is the both the music and lyrics and performance, for much of Dylan's material.


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## Guest (Nov 15, 2020)

*
Rolling Stone Magazine
100 Greatest Bob Dylan Songs
From "Just Like a Woman" to "John Wesley Harding," we count down the American icon's key masterpieces -*

https://www.rollingstone.com/music/...5159/senor-tales-of-yankee-power-1978-154715/


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## Guest (Nov 15, 2020)

NoCoPilot said:


> You think Dylan's "Christian period" isn't nuckin' futz?


No, not at all - He was searching for something that was missing and found what he was looking for...

This 9 -disc set from the "Christian period" is proof that there was far more to the tunes than one would have thought. -

*The Bootleg Series Vol. 13: Trouble No More 1979-1981
*
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Bootleg_Series_Vol._13:_Trouble_No_More_1979–1981

First rate review found here -

https://pitchfork.com/reviews/albums/bob-dylan-trouble-no-more-the-bootleg-series-vol-13-1979-1981/

Dylan became a Christian and Joni Mitchell became a black pimp - no contest on the "completely totally nuts" tournament - for an alleged "feminist icon" to assume the identity of a pimp whose modus operandi is to hook women on heroin and then turn them out to do tricks with the threat of violence a continued and overwhelming presence is indefensible and she both knew and knows better but is still unapologetic about that period.


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

Dylan and the Band said:


> *
> Rolling Stone Magazine
> 100 Greatest Bob Dylan Songs
> From "Just Like a Woman" to "John Wesley Harding," we count down the American icon's key masterpieces -*
> ...


_John Wesley Harding_ is my favorite Dylan album, there's some amazing songs on it with imagery from Shakespeare to the Bible and a bunch of stuff in between. The only period of his I don't listen to is the 80s. From his first record through Blood on the Tracks is prime stuff, then his post-1992 albums (with the exception of his easy listening trilogy).

The _Theme Time Radio_ broadcasts are Dylan curating hour shows of songs and stories - great stuff.

Plus you gotta love a guy who has his own whiskey distillery.


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

Dylan and the Band said:


> No, not at all - He was searching for something that was missing and found what he was looking for...
> 
> This 9 -disc set from the "Christian period" is proof that there was far more to the tunes than one would have thought. -
> 
> ...


I was just talking about that box yesterday. Those three albums were trashed when they came out but opinion has reversed itself in recent years.


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

One thing I don't respect about Joni Mitchell is how she comes across as an arrogant narcissist in interviews. Dylan has more humility and is more down to earth - at least in his interviews since his early crazy period when he was toying with the press.


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## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

NoCoPilot said:


> Oh, I am sadly familiar with the songs you listed. I just don't see what you see in them. I was hoping you could explain.


How bout Like a Rolling Stone, generally considered his best? The kind of imagery and detail he goes into of the girl's falls from grace is sad, but also goes into how spoiled she was. The words from the singer's perspective is kind of unsympathetic. Just very inventive.

I don't really see what the fuss is of Joni's lyrics.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

SanAntone said:


> One thing I don't respect about Joni Mitchell is how she comes across as an arrogant narcissist in interviews. Dylan has more humility and is more down to earth - at least in his interviews since his early crazy period when he was toying with the press.


I wouldn't go as far as calling her a narcissist. She's a bit self absorbed like many artists but to me she's honest and she exudes confidence. Dylan is an entirely different personality. He doesn't strike me as someone who likes to talk about himself or his music too much. He doesn't need to.


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

Phil loves classical said:


> I don't really see what the fuss is of Joni's lyrics.


She writes really well, paints pictures and tells stories - all of which is a cut above most songwriters.

*A Case of You*

_Just before our love got lost you said
"I am as constant as a northern star"
And I said "Constantly in the darkness
Where's that at?
If you want me I'll be in the bar"

On the back of a cartoon coaster
In the blue TV screen light
I drew a map of Canada
Oh Canada
With your face sketched on it twice
Oh you're in my blood like holy wine
You taste so bitter and so sweet

Oh I could drink a case of you darling
Still I'd be on my feet
oh I would still be on my feet_

*River*

_It's coming on Christmas
They're cutting down trees
They're putting up reindeer
And singing songs of joy and peace
Oh I wish I had a river I could skate away on

But it don't snow here
It stays pretty green
I'm going to make a lot of money
Then I'm going to quit this crazy scene
Oh I wish I had a river I could skate away on

I wish I had a river so long
I would teach my feet to fly
I wish I had a river I could skate away on
I made my baby cry_

*For Free*

_I slept last night in a good hotel
I went shopping today for jewels
The wind rushed around in the dirty town
And the children let out from the schools
I was standing on a noisy corner
Waiting for the walking green
Across the street he stood
And he played real good
On his clarinet for free_

*Amelia*

_I was driving across the burning desert
When I spotted six jet planes
Leaving six white vapor trails across the bleak terrain
It was the hexagram of the heavens
It was the strings of my guitar
Amelia * it was just a false alarm

The drone of flying engines
Is a song so wild and blue
It scrambles time and seasons if it gets thru to you
Then your life becomes a travelogue
Of picture post card charms
Amelia it was just a false alarm_

*Paprika Plains*

_It fell from midnight skies
It drummed on the galvanized
In the washroom women tracked the rain
Up to the make-up mirror
Liquid soap and grass
And Jungle Gardenia crash
On Pine-Sol and beer
It's stifling in here
I've got to get some air
I'm going outside to get some air

Back in my hometown
They would have cleared the floor
Just to watch the rain come down
They're such sky oriented people
Geared to changing weather
I'm floating off in time
I'm floating off
I'm floating off in time

When I was three feet tall
And wide eyed open to it all
With their tasseled teams they came
To McGee's General Store
All in their beaded leathers
I would tie on colored feathers
And I'd beat the drum like war
I would beat the drum like war
I'd beat the drum
I'd beat the drum like war_

These are just a few, but I think her lyrics in many ways display craft and concern with craft. I almost put her next to Stephen Sondheim in how finely she constructs her songs. The language she uses, how she uses rhyme. For me, she is one of the best.


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## NoCoPilot (Nov 9, 2020)

Yeah, Joni's a lyricist. Bob's a songwriter.

It's all opinion of course... but I think Bob's a crap singer and a crap poet. He writes memorable songs though... for better or worse.


Bob Dylan said:


> I've been saved
> By the blood of the lamb
> Saved
> By the blood of the lamb
> ...


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

NoCoPilot said:


> Yeah, Joni's a lyricist. Bob's a songwriter.
> 
> It's all opinion of course... but I think Bob's a crap singer and a crap poet. He writes memorable songs though... for better or worse.


Yes, it is all opinion. Joni Mitchell writes songs. Her melodies and chords are uniquely hers and uniquely written for each song. My problem with Mitchell is that her music and overall style is pretty and soft, and then she went to a light jazz sound, almost lounge music. She synthesized her guitar sound robbing it of the earthiness and naturalness of wood.

Dylan is just the opposite. His preoccupation with roots authenticity is what his sound is all about. I certainly do not think he is a "crap singer" and neither Dylan or Mitchell - or any songwriter for that matter - is a poet, "crap" or otherwise. Poetry is not songwriting.

I prefer Dylan because I like his music and production better and because his roots sound is what I like much more than Mitchell's more folkie early stuff and her later smooth jazz sound.

Dylan's lyrics are more surrealistic and his imagery is more impressive, seemingly coming from a place unknown to other songwriters and most writers in general. There's a quality to his lyrical writing that is at a higher level than any songwriter. His sources are very old, his knowledge of blues, old time, folk songs, literature is encyclopedic, and all that comes into play when he writes a lyric.


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## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

SanAntone said:


> She writes really well, paints pictures and tells stories - all of which is a cut above most songwriters.
> 
> These are just a few, but I think her lyrics in many ways display craft and concern with craft. I almost put her next to Stephen Sondheim in how finely she constructs her songs. The language she uses, how she uses rhyme. For me, she is one of the best.


I think Dylan is on a different level. Joni's lyrics aren't any better than Springsteen's.


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

Here' some good lyrics.

_Living on the road, my friend
Was gonna keep you free and clean
Now you wear your skin like iron
Your breath's as hard as kerosene
You weren't your momma's only boy
But her favorite one, it seems
She began to cry when you said goodbye
And sank into your dreams_

-- Townes Van Zandt, "Pancho & Lefty"

*Hemingway's Whiskey*
Guy Clark

_Hemingway's whiskey warm
And smooth and mean
Even when it burns
It will always finish clean

He did not like it watered down
He took it straight up and neat
If it's bad enough for him
You know it's bad enough for me
Hemingway's whiskey

You know it tough out there
A good muse is hard to find
Living one word to the next
And living one line at a time

Now there more to life then whiskey
There's more to words than rhyme
Sometime nothing works
Sometimes nothing shines
Hemingway's whiskey

Sail away, sail away
As the day grows dim
Live hard die hard this one's for him
Hemingway's whiskey

Hemingway's whiskey warm
And smooth and mean
Even when it burns
It will always finish clean

He did not like it watered down
He took it straight up an neat
If it's bad enough for him
You know it's bad enough for me
Hemingway's whiskey_

*Desperados Waiting For The Train*
Guy Clarke

_And I played the Red River Valley
And he'd sit in the kitchen and cry
Run his fingers through seventy years of livin'
And wonder, "Lord, has every well I've drilled gone dry?"
We was friends, me and this old man
Was like desperados waitin' for a train
Like desperados waitin' for a train

Well, he's a drifter and a driller of oil wells
And an old school man of the world
He taught me how to drive his car when he was too drunk to
And he'd wink and give me money for the girls
And our lives was like some old western movie
Like desperados waitin' for a train
Like desperados waitin' for a train

From the time that I could walk, he'd take me with him
To a bar called the Green Frog Cafe
And there was old men with beer guts and dominoes
Lying 'bout their lives while they played
And I was just a kid, but they all called me "sidekick"
Was like desperados waitin' for a train
Like desperados waitin' for a train

And one day I looked up and he's pushin' eighty
And has brown tobacco stains all down his chin
Well, to me, he's one of the heroes of this country
So why's he all dressed up like them old men
Drinkin' beer and playin' Moon and Forty-two
Just like a desperado waitin' for a train
Like a desperado waitin' for a train

And then the day before he died I went to see him
I was grown and he was almost gone
So we just closed our eyes and dreamed us up a kitchen
And sang another verse to that old song
Come on, Jack, that son-of-a-bitch is comin'
We're desperados waitin' for a train
Was like desperados waitin' for a train
Like desperados waitin' for a train
Like desperados waitin' for a train _


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

Phil loves classical said:


> I think Dylan is on a different level. Joni's lyrics aren't any better than Springsteen's.


I am not a Springsteen fan and haven't spent much time with his music. But from what I've heard, his songs are more formulaic than Mitchell's. Yeah, he's got some good stories and images, but I get tired of the hooks and really tired of his sound. His later, more acoustic stuff is really the only records I've liked, but still not enough to spend a lot of time with.


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## NoCoPilot (Nov 9, 2020)

My favorite lyric of all time is just a fragment, Neil Young, "Old Man":


Neil Young said:


> Doesn't mean that much to me
> To mean that much to you


The rest of the song's pretty good too.


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

NoCoPilot said:


> My favorite lyric of all time is just a fragment, Neil Young, "Old Man":
> 
> The rest of the song's pretty good too.


There's a lot of good songwriters and lyrics, which is why I made it half of my life.

Here's a good one, not by a famous rock star.

_You don't know about lonely
Or how long nights can be
Till you've lived through the story
That's still livin' in me
You don't know about sadness 
Till you've faced life alone
You don't know about lonely
Till it's chiseled in stone_

-- "Chiseled in Stone" by Vern Gosdin and Max D. Barnes


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## Kieran (Aug 24, 2010)

It's not surprising to me that so many people are so completely wrong when it comes to how great a singer Bob Dylan is. The fact that his greatness in this regard is self-evident might be part of the problem. They're listening, but their expectations of what a singer _does _seems to be so awry that they're unable to hear. Think not theoretically, but practically. Listen for what he says, and how he says it, and ask yourself if you're not better off for both.

What *is *surprising is that Joni still leads in the poll. You can be wrong about Dylan's singing but have the good taste and wit and character to know what greatness is. I don't know what's your problem when you have Dylan in a poll against any modern songwriter and vote against him. It could be a lack of taste, or it could be a relative unfamiliarity. You might prefer Joni, but can you know Dylan's output so well and still vote for her? If I look at great art, I often wonder what separates it from less great art. How are we to measure? With Dylan, I believe he adds depth and variety, a great dexterous and flexible mind, an extraordinary range of ideas _from deep within the same song_ that makes it a different song almost every season, that he almost renders the the word "song" to be too one-dimensional a word to cover even one of his great songs.

I've heard, and have in bootlegs, almost 50 versions of It's All Over Now, Baby Blue, each one difficult to recognise as being the same song as the previous version I heard. And I hesitate to use the word "version" in this regard, because he reassembles and reworks the songs so completely, that you'd be churlish if you denied that he'd actually created something new. I remember in Dublin about 17 years ago, but it might have been 2001, he wasn't well on stage (he cancelled Cork the following evening), and he was clearly sweating profusely and struggling, but he gamely battled on. Listening to the bootleg now is a strange and bewildering experience: he completely reworked the music for Man in a Long Black Coat, a song which sounds definitive on Oh Mercy, but he also reworked songs off his most recent record, Love & Theft.

His prodigiousness extends beyond the invention and perfection of styles, beyond the 17 minute epics and and the perfect marriage of line and thought that we find in so many of his songs, and I shouldn't ignore the vast array of American songbooks which he conquered and beautifully subdued, but yes, I'll bring it all back around again to his voice, that character actor's voice, that Golden Age of Hollywood leading actor's voice, the expression he lays into every word, the emotion, the phrasing, the timing, the breathing. That he sings a line of one length in this verse, but when he reached the same stage of the next verse, he elongates the line to beyond its previous capacity, and you're left gaping, wondering will he overrun, but he never does, and in hindsight, he never seemed in danger of it.

By no coincidence at all, I'm listening now to a minor Dylan song, I Threw It All Away. Released first in 1969, when he sang with a mouth filled with fruit after giving up cigarettes - he says, though we're not bound to believe him - but I'm not listening to that gorgeous version, from Nashville Skyline. I'm listening to him in rehearsal 9 years later in the Rundown Studios in Santa Monica, where his epic snarl is back, and he has a girls chorus bellowing behind him, Steve Douglas on saxophone and a rock band learning the song as he develops it into a new arrangement - and what an arrangement. This creative restlessness is a feature that I would say is unique to Dylan among modern rock, folk songwriters. It's possibly commonplace in other fields, though I'd be surprised if we found anyone more prolific at it. What's wrong with the original version, Bob, we might ask.

Nuthin', and what's wrong with this one, he might reply.

Nuthin', we'd have to admit, while feeling foolish for even asking...


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

starthrower said:


> I wouldn't go as far as calling her a narcissist. She's a bit self absorbed like many artists but to me she's honest and she exudes confidence. Dylan is an entirely different personality. He doesn't strike me as someone who likes to talk about himself or his music too much. He doesn't need to.


Oh, she IS a narcissist, or at least has a very healthy ego.


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

Kieran said:


> What *is *surprising is that Joni still leads in the poll. You can be wrong about Dylan's singing but have the good taste and wit and character to know what greatness is. I don't know what's your problem when you have Dylan in a poll against any modern songwriter and vote against him.


you sound a bit like a fanatic here. And I love Dylan, I think he's a great singer, I think his importance on popular music have been massive. If popular music has ever had a myth, it's Dylan. But still it's perfectly fine to have a preference for Joni (who by the way, as a singer has not just a pretty voice, she's also an amazing singer), or for other songwriters for many reasons.


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

Kieran said:


> It's not surprising to me that so many people are so completely wrong when it comes to how great a singer Bob Dylan is. The fact that his greatness in this regard is self-evident might be part of the problem. They're listening, but their expectations of what a singer _does _seems to be so awry that they're unable to hear. Think not theoretically, but practically. Listen for what he says, and how he says it, and ask yourself if you're not better off for both.
> 
> What *is *surprising is that Joni still leads in the poll. You can be wrong about Dylan's singing but have the good taste and wit and character to know what greatness is. I don't know what's your problem when you have Dylan in a poll against any modern songwriter and vote against him. It could be a lack of taste, or it could be a relative unfamiliarity. You might prefer Joni, but can you know Dylan's output so well and still vote for her? If I look at great art, I often wonder what separates it from less great art. How are we to measure? With Dylan, I believe he adds depth and variety, a great dexterous and flexible mind, an extraordinary range of ideas _from deep within the same song_ that makes it a different song almost every season, that he almost renders the the word "song" to be too one-dimensional a word to cover even one of his great songs.
> 
> ...


Nice post. But Dylan has risen in this poll to within one vote, which is a healthy improvement. At one point it was something like 2:1 in favor of Mitchell.


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## Kieran (Aug 24, 2010)

norman bates said:


> you sound a bit like a fanatic here. And I love Dylan, I think he's a great singer, I think his importance on popular music have been massive. If popular music has ever had a myth, it's Dylan. But still it's perfectly fine to have a preference for Joni (who by the way, as a singer has not just a pretty voice, she's also an amazing singer), or for other songwriters for many reasons.


But I mention that in my post - we may prefer somebody but acknowledge the greater work of another. That isn't fanaticism, that's rational thinking...


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

millionrainbows said:


> Oh, she IS a narcissist, or at least has a very healthy ego.


You're the expert! Psychology aside, I just enjoy her fine artistry. I don't know if her lyrics are better than Springsteen? But since I can't stand his voice or music I don't plan on finding out. Maybe Phil can give us some examples?


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

Kieran said:


> But I mention that in my post - we may prefer somebody but acknowledge the greater work of another. That isn't fanaticism, that's rational thinking...


But I don't think the work of Dylan is necessarily better than say, Tim Buckley, Robert Wyatt, Neil Young, Jobim, Valzinho, Hoagy Carmichael, Nick Drake, Atahualpa Yupanqui, Van Morrison, Nick Cave, Tom Waits etc.


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

norman bates said:


> But I don't think the work of Dylan is necessarily better than say, Tim Buckley, Robert Wyatt, Neil Young, Jobim, Valzinho, Hoagy Carmichael, Nick Drake, Atahualpa Yupanqui, Van Morrison, Nick Cave, Tom Waits etc.


You may believe anything you wish about the place of Dylan and quality of his songs. However, judging by the number of books written about his music and career, by any objective standard his importance and impact cannot be overstated.


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## Kieran (Aug 24, 2010)

norman bates said:


> But I don't think the work of Dylan is necessarily better than say, Tim Buckley, Robert Wyatt, Neil Young, Jobim, Valzinho, Hoagy Carmichael, Nick Drake, Atahualpa Yupanqui, Van Morrison, Nick Cave, Tom Waits etc.


All of them put together?

Oh, I think it is...


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## NoCoPilot (Nov 9, 2020)

Kieran said:


> It's not surprising to me that so many people are so completely wrong when it comes to how great a singer Bob Dylan is.


It's all opinion, there is no "right" or "wrong."

Although Bob's not a _technical _singer, as in hitting notes on pitch or on time. But lots of very evocative singers aren't (Leon Russell, Captain Beefheart, Tom Waits, Billy Holiday, Rickie Lee Jones) and lots of technical singers aren't very evocative to listen to (I won't name names).


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## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

starthrower said:


> You're the expert! Psychology aside, I just enjoy her fine artistry. I don't know if her lyrics are better than Springsteen? But since I can't stand his voice or music I don't plan on finding out. Maybe Phil can give us some examples?


Nebraska is considered by some to be Springsteen's best album. No image pumping in that one.

Here are a couple of good ones from that album.

*Mansion On the Hill*

There's a place out on the edge of town, sir
Rising above the factories and the fields
Now ever since I 'as a child I can remember
That mansion on the hill
In the day you can see the children playing
On the road that leads to those gates of hardened steel
Steel gates that completely surround,
The mansion on the hill
At night my daddy'd take me and we'd ride
Through the streets of a town so silent and still
Park on a back road along the highway side
Look up at that mansion on the hill
In the summer all the lights would shine
There'd be music playing, people laughing all the time
Me and my sister we'd hide out in the tall corn fields
Sit and listen to the mansion on the hill
Tonight down here in Linden Town
I watch the cars rushing by, home from the mill
There's a beautiful full moon rising
Above the mansion on the hill

*Reason To Believe*

Seen a man standin' over a dead dog lyin' by the highway in a ditch
He's lookin' down kinda puzzled pokin' that dog with a stick
Got his car door flung open he's standin' out on highway 31
Like if he stood there long enough that dog'd get up and run
Struck me kinda funny seem kinda funny sir to me
Still at the end of every hard day people find some reason to believe

Now Mary Lou loved Johnny with a love mean and true
She said baby I'll work for you everyday and bring my money home to you
One day he up and left her and ever since that
She waits down at the end of that dirt road for young Johnny to come back
Struck me kinda funny funny yea indeed how at the end of every hard earned day you can find some reason to believe

Take a baby to the river Kyle William they called him
Wash the baby in the water take away little Kyle's sin
In a whitewash shotgun shack an old man passes away take the body to the graveyard and over him they pray Lord won't you tell us,
Tell us what does it mean
At the end of every hard earned day people find some reason to believe

Congregation gathers down by the riverside
Preacher stands with his bible, groom stands waitin' for his bride
Congregation gone and the sun sets behind a weepin' willow tree
Groom stands alone and watches the river rush on so effortlessly
Wonderin' where can his baby be still at the end of every hard earned day people find some reason to believe


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

Meh! I'll stick with Joni and Dylan.


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

Kieran said:


> All of them put together?
> 
> Oh, I think it is...


sure, if you don't know them. No, obviously individually, and I could mention others too. And they often have qualities that Dylan doesn't have.


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

SanAntone said:


> You may believe anything you wish about the place of Dylan and quality of his songs. However, judging by the number of books written about his music and career, by any objective standard his importance and impact cannot be overstated.


sure, no doubt about it. I wrote that too.
But as a listener I care more for quality than for importance, and in terms of quality, I think there are other songwriters that are as good as Dylan, that can make things that Dylan wasn't able to do (it's of course true also the opposite).


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## Kieran (Aug 24, 2010)

norman bates said:


> sure, if you don't know them. No, obviously individually, and I could mention others too. And they often have qualities that Dylan doesn't have.


Of course, and I was joking, by the way, when I said "all of them put together." They should have qualities he doesn't have, if they're creative at the level they're at, but this doesn't mean they're greater than him. I'm not saying he's great just because I like him - I like him because he's great. I'm familiar with most of the names on the list and I wouldn't ever say they were as great as him. He invented their job for them, mostly, which isn't insignificant, but he also perfected it. I love Tom Waits and Nick cave, but I don't see the depth and broadness in their work that I see in his. Even Leonard Cohen, who I particularly love, is often compared to Bob as a poet, but he doesn't have the range that Dylan has. We can think of Bob writing pastoral poetry, but we can't think of Leonard writing Groom's Still Waiting At The Altar.

Dylan goes deep, but he also covers a huge terrain, and he does it authentically, or as "authentic" as any of these guys can seem. So his country stuff wasn't just like his old stuff, but countrified by different instruments. No, he's gotten right into the core of what distinguishes country music from other forms. And the songs on Saved weren't just like the songs on Desire, but with gospel chorus. No, they were true gospel songs, and move us in the same way great gospel songs should. His understanding and instincts are remarkable.

All those other songwriters - and Joni have created things of great worth, but I can't see any of them reaching the heights, and sustaining that level for so long, like Dylan did. And I genuinely believe, it's not even close. His influence is huge, far beyond all the other songwriters we've seen mentioned. His influence on them is unquestioned...


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

Kieran said:


> Of course, and I was joking, by the way, when I said "all of them put together." They should have qualities he doesn't have, if they're creative at the level they're at, but this doesn't mean they're greater than him. I'm not saying he's great just because I like him - I like him because he's great. I'm familiar with most of the names on the list and I wouldn't ever say they were as great as him. He invented their job for them, mostly, which isn't insignificant, but he also perfected it.


actually, guys like Hoagy Carmichael, Willard Robison, Atahualpa, Valzinho were writing songs decades before Dylan. I'm not sure what you're talking about.



Kieran said:


> I love Tom Waits and Nick cave, but I don't see the depth and broadness in their work that I see in his.


Tom Waits for instance is an amazing and creative arranger, something that Dylan is not at all. There's a darkness and violence in Cave's work that simply Dylan doesn't have (and he too has much more interesting arrangements). They have both also a theatrical dimension that Dylan doesn't have.



Kieran said:


> Dylan goes deep, but he also covers a huge terrain, and he does it authentically, or as "authentic" as any of these guys can seem. So his country stuff wasn't just like his old stuff, but countrified by different instruments. No, he's gotten right into the core of what distinguishes country music from other forms. And the songs on Saved weren't just like the songs on Desire, but with gospel chorus. No, they were true gospel songs, and move us in the same way great gospel songs should. His understanding and instincts are remarkable.
> 
> All those other songwriters - and Joni have created things of great worth, but I can't see any of them reaching the heights, and sustaining that level for so long, like Dylan did. And I genuinely believe, it's not even close.


I wonder how much of the work of some of the guys I've mentioned you've heard. I suspect not much, especially considering that "he invented the job for them".


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## Kieran (Aug 24, 2010)

norman bates said:


> actually, guys like Hoagy Carmichael, Willard Robison, Atahualpa, Valzinho were writing songs decades before Dylan. I'm not sure what you're talking about.


I said, "mostly." You named 11 songwriters, so "mostly" is accurate. For the rest, I've heard of some and they're great songwriters. Don't mistake what I'm saying for me denigrating or disrespecting great songwriters. The contrary would be more accurate, because thankfully we don't live in a binary world, in this regard. It's not "either/or", and I'm happy to listen to greatness regardless of where it comes from. But the purpose of the threat is to set them in opposition.



norman bates said:


> Tom Waits for instance is an amazing and creative arranger, something that Dylan is not at all. There's a darkness and violence in Cave's work that simply Dylan doesn't have (and he too has much more interesting arrangements). They have both also a theatrical dimension that Dylan doesn't have.


These are good remarks, but of course, none of these attributes are in themselves proof that either songwriter is "greater than Dylan." "Darkness and violence" are not the only attributes that can go into great songwriting, and I'd say that Dylan goes in that direction as far as he needs to. But his range is far more vast than Nick Cave's in terms of his subtlety, his wit and his use of language. I love Nick cave, and as we can see, it can often seem like we need to criticise a great artist unfairly, in order to prove a point in these comparison threads. I don't mind that, by the way, they can withstand it.

Tom Waits too - one of my favourite albums by anyone is Alice, and if Tom arranged it, then he did a remarkable job. But I wouldn't swap his output for Dylan's. I wouldn't live without the surprise and wit and generosity of Bob Dylan's creative output. We could fit many great songwriters in the corner of a room that would be filled to the brim with Dylan's songs, and rearrangements of his songs. We can't underestimate just what he does to make an old familiar song seem unfamiliar and new. This too is a form of arrangements, and one that I haven't heard Tom Waits come close to...


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## NoCoPilot (Nov 9, 2020)

Randy Newman is a great songwriter. Again, not much of a singer. Carole King is good at both.


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

Kieran said:


> I said, "mostly." You named 11 songwriters, so "mostly" is accurate. For the rest, I've heard of some and they're great songwriters. Don't mistake what I'm saying for me denigrating or disrespecting great songwriters. The contrary would be more accurate, because thankfully we don't live in a binary world, in this regard. It's not "either/or", and I'm happy to listen to greatness regardless of where it comes from. But the purpose of the threat is to set them in opposition.
> 
> These are good remarks, but of course, none of these attributes are in themselves proof that either songwriter is "greater than Dylan." "Darkness and violence" are not the only attributes that can go into great songwriting, and I'd say that Dylan goes in that direction as far as he needs to. But his range is far more vast than Nick Cave's in terms of his subtlety, his wit and his use of language.


I don't think so, Cave is able to write amazing lyrics, and musically there are often more interesting things in his songs. I probably prefer an album like From her to eternity to any album of Dylan. 
In any case my point wasn't to say that they are greater than Dylan. I'm saying that in terms of quality the works of many other songwriters is equally valid and in many aspects more compelling than his. If I want to listen a great melody I'd certainly go with a Hoagy Carmichael. If I want to listen to a musician that sings like he has centuries of experience I'd go with Atahualpa. If I want wit I can go with Randy Newman or Harry Nilsson. If I want to hear mysticism I'd go with early Van Morrison. If I want to listen a exquisite guitar work I'd go with Nick Drake. Dylan is one of the most important songwriters of all time? Absolutely. He wrote amazing songs? Of course. He invented a new way to use lyrics that influenced tons of other musicians? Yes (well, altough I can think of certain songs with a great and surreal use of lyrics before Dylan). But in terms of quality there are others that are on the same level or that can even offer things that Dylan never did and were not his strength.



Kieran said:


> .
> Tom Waits too - one of my favourite albums by anyone is Alice, and if Tom arranged it, then he did a remarkable job. But I wouldn't swap his output for Dylan's. I wouldn't live without the surprise and wit and generosity of Bob Dylan's creative output. We could fit many great songwriters in the corner of a room that would be filled to the brim with Dylan's songs, and rearrangements of his songs. We can't underestimate just what he does to make an old familiar song seem unfamiliar and new.


there's nothing new musically in what Dylan does, except when he went electric. His arrangements, melodies and chord progressions are definitely not what makes his work great.


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

Tom Waits early records were pretty good, some good songs - but I grew tired of his somewhat exaggerated production and his voice. I get the sense there's not much there.

*Hoagy Carmichael*. One of the best of the generation of Great American Songbook songwriters. "Skylark", "Stardust", and many others are classics of the genre. But why pluck him out of the dozens of other songwriters like Irvin Berlin, Cole Porter, Gershwin, is a mystery. He is certainly not better than any of them and in fact I consider Berlin to be the greatest of them all.

*Willard Robison*. Minor figure of the same period and genre as Carmichael.

*Atahualpa*. Atahualpa Yupanqui - important Argentine songwriter/guitarist. I am not sure what he has to do with Dylan or Mitchell other than in the general sense that all wrote songs.

*Valzinho*. Brazilian, I think. Another composer/songwriter who while important has nothing to do with Dylan or Mitchell.

I guess you wish to parade your eclecticism in order to impress us? Yeah, I've listened to world music too. But comparing Dylan to every songwriter in history and place on earth is silly, IMO. *Stephen Foster* was more of a prototype than any of the ones you named.

*Springsteen*. Someone whose fame outstripped his talent, IMO. He and Garth Brooks polluted the musical landscape, IMO, with their egos and volume. His later work was more interesting than the music that made him famous (I liked _Tom Joad_ but it is a little clichéd. "Oh, boy, another story song about hard times."). I guess he will always have his fans. It might be a regional thing: most people from the South ignored him while Northeasterners love him. He's more interesting than Billy Joel, but they represent the same kind of thing to me. I think Tom Petty is better than either of them.

*Randy Newman
Jimmy Webb*

Two songwriters that rival the greats from the Hoagy Carmichael period.

And of course, *Stephen Sondheim* is among the best theater writers.

But they have little to do with what Dylan does.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

Dylan and the Band said:


> Based on these photos she may indeed have at least a little "blues" in her...
> 
> View attachment 145916


If this bizarre minstrel black-face persona of Mitchell's is your idea of a "blues" influence, then we are worlds apart.


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## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

starthrower said:


> Meh! I'll stick with Joni and Dylan.


That's fine. I feel the same with Joni's lyrics (A Case of You is just unbearably corny to me). Dylan had this edge of the seat sarcasm and wit that elevated him in my view.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

NoCoPilot said:


> Randy Newman is a great songwriter. Again, not much of a singer.


His voice is perfect for delivering the type of material he writes. I wouldn't want it any other way.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

Well, this thread has turned out well! You see that, starthrower? If people are encouraged to use their intellects, the results can be very good!

Other obsevations about Dylan: "Like a Rolling Stone" has a bitter, sarcastic edge to it, and is really an aggressive song in the end: "I told you so, you spoiled brat! You shouldn't have hung around those Warhol ****! Look where it got you!" The song is about Edie Sedgwick. See the movie "Factory Girl."

"Napoleon in rags" is a reference to Warhol (there have always been rumors that Napoleon was gay).

Another extremely bitter song from this period is "Positively Fourth Street." It starts out "You've got a lotta nerve to say you are my friend."

Bob Dylan was full of venom, wasn't he?

Other observations: The "John Wesley Harding" album is "biblical" because the songs are all parables.


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## NoCoPilot (Nov 9, 2020)

starthrower said:


> His voice is perfect for delivering the type of material he writes. I wouldn't want it any other way.


Nilsson did a pretty good job with it.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

NoCoPilot said:


> Randy Newman is a great songwriter. Again, not much of a singer. Carole King is good at both.





starthrower said:


> His voice is perfect for delivering the type of material he writes. I wouldn't want it any other way.


But you're missing the point, starthrower. By today's standards, he'd never make it on "The Voice." Plus, stuck behind that piano, he wouldn't be able to dance.


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

NoCoPilot said:


> Nilsson did a pretty good job with it.


_Nilsson Sings Newman_ is a great, great record. But there's nothing wrong with Randy Newman's singing. People who complain about Dylan's or Newman's singing completely miss the point. I'm the opposite when I hear a "good" singer singing their songs it robs them of some of their power.

Joan Baez singing Dylan bores me, same with Judy Collins, Peter, Paul & Mary - and The Byrds. I want to hear the songs sung by a gravelly gritty bluesy singer.


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

SanAntone said:


> Tom Waits early records were pretty good, some good songs - but I grew tired of his somewhat exaggerated production and his voice. I get the sense there's not much there.


Personally I think Waits is an amazing singer, sort of hyper Louis Armstrong. And altough I like also his early stuff I think his best things are those of his experimental period, from Swordfishtrombones/Rain dogs era and after.



SanAntone said:


> *Hoagy Carmichael*. One of the best of the generation of Great American Songbook songwriters. "Skylark", "Stardust", and many others are classics of the genre. But why pluck him out of the dozens of other songwriters like Irvin Berlin, Cole Porter, Gershwin, is a mystery. He is certainly not better than any of them and in fact I consider Berlin to be the greatest of them all.


I mentioned him simply because (besides being one of the best) he was a singer songwriter, and not just a songwriter. I could have mentioned all the authors of the great american songbook.



SanAntone said:


> *Willard Robison*. Minor figure of the same period and genre as Carmichael.


minor only in terms of success. He actually was an amazing songwriter who wrote beautiful and very sophisticated songs and the model for Carmichael, who arrived a bit later. Robison was probably the first american singer songwriter (at least from that tradition), writing songs, singing, playing and making the arrangements. He's also, like Carmichael, one of those fascinating musicians where elements of country, blues and jazz seem to seamlessly coexist.



SanAntone said:


> *Atahualpa*. Atahualpa Yupanqui - important Argentine songwriter/guitarist. I am not sure what he has to do with Dylan or Mitchell other than in the general sense that all wrote songs.


a singer songwriter and a folksinger. He is exactly of the same world of Bob Dylan and Joni Mitchell. I remember some users here who despised guys like Dylan and Young as minor figures compared to him. Just a phenomenal singer songwriter, who only in a world that is centered only on american and english music doesn't receive the praise he deserves.



SanAntone said:


> *Valzinho*. Brazilian, I think. Another composer/songwriter who while important has nothing to do with Dylan or Mitchell.


He wasn't actually that important. He's actually a almost completely forgotten figure. He just wrote amazing songs, and incredibly sophisticated for its time.



SanAntone said:


> I guess you wish to parade your eclecticism in order to impress us? Yeah, I've listened to world music too. But comparing Dylan to every songwriter in history and place on earth is silly, IMO. *Stephen Foster* was more of a prototype than any of the ones you named.


It's silly only if you haven't really listened to them (as it seems, since you described Valzinho as "important" and Atahualpa as someone who doesn't have anything to do with folk singer songwriters like Dylan or Joni Mitchell). In a way he's to latin america what Dylan was to the united states.
And my goal wasn't to impress with my eclecticism, it's just the point of view of an italian person who, unlike certain american and english people, has learned to listen music from a lot of countries and doesn't think that america is the centre of the world, and that songwriter doesn't mean just folk singer songwriter.
We could mention also Stevie Wonder, or Captain Beefheart, or Brian Wilson... I'm not sure sure why songwriter should be meant just as folksinger.


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## Strange Magic (Sep 14, 2015)

Kieran said:


> All of them put together?
> 
> Oh, I think it is...


Just the sheer volume (amount) of amazing songs is awe-inspiring. To resurrect a previous point, his winning the Nobel Prize for literature was fully earned and deserved.


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

starthrower said:


> His voice is perfect for delivering the type of material he writes. I wouldn't want it any other way.


also, the way he sung Political science sounds exactly as a certain president


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## Guest (Nov 16, 2020)

millionrainbows said:


> If this bizarre minstrel black-face persona of Mitchell's is your idea of a "blues" influence, then we are worlds apart.


Seriously? - I have to explain the literary use of "irony"?

_Irony_ - "the expression of one's meaning by using language that normally signifies the opposite, typically for humorous or emphatic effect"


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## JAS (Mar 6, 2013)

Strange Magic said:


> Just the sheer volume (amount) of amazing songs is awe-inspiring. To resurrect a previous point, his winning the Nobel Prize for literature was fully earned and deserved.


I consider it an absurd stunt, which reflected well on no one.


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

> It's silly only if you haven't really listened to them (as it seems, since you described Valzinho as "important" and Atahualpa as someone who doesn't have anything to do with folk singer songwriters like Dylan or Joni Mitchell). In a way he's to latin america what Dylan was to the united states.
> And my goal wasn't to impress with my eclecticism, it's just the point of view of an italian person who, unlike certain american and english people, has learned to listen music from a lot of countries and doesn't think that america is the centre of the world, and that songwriter doesn't mean just folk singer songwriter.


You're right I haven't spent much time listening specifically to those two singers/writers I've only heard of them in passing while I listened to others from the same regions. So I was off a bit with the essence of what they're about. But they have nothing to do with Dylan, IMO, and don't even know why we're talking about them in this thread. Just because they were folk singers means nothing unless they were American folk singers. Every country has folk music - but it has little to nothing to do with American folk/roots music.

I make no apologies for being American-centric. I was born here, and not only that I am *Southern* first. I listen mostly to Southern music since it is the music I relate to and the music I grew up with. I like a specific kind of songwriting more than any other - roots-based songs, Southern, coming out the rural experience and the blues. Country music before it got corrupted by corporate Nashville produced some great songwriters like Hank Williams, Lefty Frizzell, Jimmie Rogers, Curly Putnam, Merle Haggard ... I could go on naming 100s of songwriters that mean more to Dylan than anybody from outside the Southern US.

Although I've listened to a ton of world music, love Brazilian, Argentine, Spanish, Cuban, music - it is in the margins of my listening. It is not MY music. I am outside it's reference point, whereas for Dylan and country songwriters it is from where I live.

Btw, my heritage is Sicilian. All of my grandparents came from Castelvetrano. Louisiana has a lot of Sicilians. But the music from Sicily/Italy is as foreign to me as music from Mars. My father played Jimmie Rogers songs on his guitar.


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## Guest (Nov 16, 2020)

Strange Magic said:


> Just the sheer volume (amount) of amazing songs is awe-inspiring. To resurrect a previous point, his winning the Nobel Prize for literature was fully earned and deserved.





JAS said:


> I consider it an absurd stunt, which reflected well on no one.


Bob Dylan explains why he won the Nobel Prize -

https://www.usatoday.com/story/life...el-prize-literature-lecture-speech/102515518/

After skipping the 2016 Nobel Prize banquet last year, Bob Dylan was given a six-month deadline to share his Nobel Lecture in order to officially receive his Nobel Prize in Literature.

On Monday, the organization shared a recorded version of Dylan's speech, a freewheeling 27-minute address recorded on June 4. The 76-year-old singer/songwriter began his speech by addressing a question many critics had when he first won the prize: Why was the famed literary award presented to an artist mainly seen as a musician?

"When I received the Nobel Prize for Literature, I got to wondering how exactly my songs related to literature," he said.

Using the same vivid language and circuitous storytelling that are hallmarks of his songbook, Dylan described how the classics he read in school influenced his music. "When I started writing my own songs, folk lingo was the only vocabulary that I knew, and I used it," he said. "But I had something else as well. I had principles and sensibilities and an informed view of the world, and I'd had that for a while. I learned it all in grammar school: Don Quixote, Ivanhoe, Robinson Crusoe, Gulliver's Travels, A Tale of Two Cities, all the rest."

"Typical grammar school reading that gave you a way of looking at life, an understanding of human nature, and a standard to measure things by," he continued. "I took all that with me when I started composing lyrics, and the themes from those books worked their way into many of my songs, either knowingly or unintentionally."

Dylan dedicates the rest of the lecture to retelling, in fantastical detail, three works of literature that specifically inspired him: Moby Dick, All Quiet on the Western Front and The Odyssey. In his speech's final moments, he acknowledges that "songs are unlike literature, they're meant to be sung, not read," before sharing a telling quote from The Odyssey: "Sing in me, Muse, and through me tell the story."

*The Swedish Academy awarded Dylan the 2016 Nobel Prize in Literature "for having created new poetic expressions within the great American song tradition." *After declining the invitation to attend the traditional Nobel Prize banquet and ceremony on Dec. 10, pleading other commitments, Dylan visited Stockholm to accept his Nobel diploma and medal in April.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

norman bates said:


> also, the way he sung Political science sounds exactly as a certain president


Check out the Trump The Internet channel by J-L Cauvin. This guy is hilarious!


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

millionrainbows said:


> Well, this thread has turned out well! You see that, starthrower? If people are encouraged to use their intellects, the results can be very good!


Thank you, master!


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

SanAntone said:


> You're right I haven't spent much time listening specifically to those two singers/writers I've only heard of them in passing while I listened to others from the same regions. So I was off a bit with the essence of what they're about. But they have nothing to do with Dylan, IMO, and don't even know why we're talking about them in this thread. Just because they were folk singers means nothing unless they were American folk singers. Every country has folk music - but it has little to nothing to do with American folk/roots music.


I actually think that Atahualpa and Dylan have more in common than Dylan and Joni Mitchell.
When you say that you like Dylan because he absorbed the tradition and he sings like he has a incredibly long experience, like he's singing from a forgotten era, that's the kind of thing that make Atahualpa great. He's the same kind of singer (but personally I prefer Atahualpa).



SanAntone said:


> I make no apologies for being American-centric. I was born here, and not only that I am *Southern* first. I listen mostly to Southern music since it is the music I relate to and the music I grew up with. I like a specific kind of songwriting more than any other - roots-based songs, Southern, coming out the rural experience and the blues. Country music before it got corrupted by corporate Nashville produced some great songwriters like Hank Williams, Lefty Frizzell, Jimmie Rogers, Curly Putnam, Merle Haggard ... I could go on naming 100s of songwriters that mean more to Dylan than anybody from outside the Southern US.


I'm certainly not asking for apologies. I was answering to your comment about "showing my eclecticism", when from my perspective I'm just comparing songwriters, and I don't have any "america first" bias (even if american music has produced the majority of my favorite music)



SanAntone said:


> Although I've listened to a ton of world music, love Brazilian, Argentine, Spanish, Cuban, music - it is in the margins of my listening. It is not MY music. I am outside it's reference point, whereas for Dylan and country songwriters it is from where I live.
> 
> Btw, my heritage is Sicilian. All of my grandparents came from Castelvetrano. But the music from Sicily/Italy is as foreign to me as music from Mars.


I suspect you could appreciate Rosa Balistreri. One the greatest popular italian singers (she was from Palermo, the city also of Giuni Russo, another amazing singer, altough completely different). I said once that she sung like certain flamenco singers.


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## Kieran (Aug 24, 2010)

norman bates said:


> I don't think so, Cave is able to write amazing lyrics, and musically there are often more interesting things in his songs. I probably prefer an album like From her to eternity to any album of Dylan.
> In any case my point wasn't to say that they are greater than Dylan. I'm saying that in terms of quality the works of many other songwriters is equally valid and in many aspects more compelling than his. If I want to listen a great melody I'd certainly go with a Hoagy Carmichael. If I want to listen to a musician that sings like he has centuries of experience I'd go with Atahualpa. If I want wit I can go with Randy Newman or Harry Nilsson. If I want to hear mysticism I'd go with early Van Morrison. If I want to listen a exquisite guitar work I'd go with Nick Drake. Dylan is one of the most important songwriters of all time? Absolutely. He wrote amazing songs? Of course. He invented a new way to use lyrics that influenced tons of other musicians? Yes (well, altough I can think of certain songs with a great and surreal use of lyrics before Dylan). But in terms of quality there are others that are on the same level or that can even offer things that Dylan never did and were not his strength.


Absolutely, there are other great songwriters, and of course they would do things he never did, or which weren't his strength. this would go without saying. However, the topic of the thread is to make a straight comparison: Dylan, or Whoever?

I would not think there were greater modern songwriters than Dylan, certainly not Nick Cave or the Waits/Brennan combo. Of the others, I would also say, no, but I think they're operating in different genres and with different ideas, so it becomes a wholly different topic. We could throw Schubert in, and then we reach the stage where we need to draw a line. Do I think that Bob Dylan is the greatest songwriter in Infinity? Of course not, nobody could argue this. But if you stick players of the same field up against him? yes, he's far better than any of them, even though I may prefer some Tom Waits or Leonard Cohen records to some of Bob's.



norman bates said:


> there's nothing new musically in what Dylan does, except when he went electric. His arrangements, melodies and chord progressions are definitely not what makes his work great.


This isn't quite what I meant about his "rearrangement of his songs." I'm not talking about him rearranging the accompaniment, I'm talking about him dismantling the song and creating is almost effectively a new song out of the old. It's not only the backing music has changed. It's almost like a jazz musicians attitude to the flexibility of the song itself. He long ago described the songs as we hear them on his records as "blueprints" - and his live career has shown that this still hold true. We have a starting point to the song on the record, but there's no definitive version there, because he's so often prone to reimagining the song in very startling ways...


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## Guest (Nov 16, 2020)

It's apparent at this point of the thread that most will have differing opinions with no hope of reaching even a rudimentary consensus...

Even Hitler had an opinion... This clip may get this thread kicked into the netherworld of "Religion and Politics" - if so, my apologies... but it was worth it.


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

norman bates said:


> I actually think that Atahualpa and Dylan have more in common than Dylan and Joni Mitchell.
> When you say that you like Dylan because he absorbed the tradition and he sings like he has a incredibly long experience, like he's singing from a forgotten era, that's the kind of thing that make Atahualpa great. He's the same kind of singer (but personally I prefer Atahualpa).


I agree that Dylan and Mitchell have little to do with each other. But are more alike than they are with songwriters from other eras and countries.

It's the language. If I can't understand what the words mean the song is meaningless to me. He may very well have a similar place as Dylan but it will never resonate with me. Just like listening to Schubert or Italian opera - but there the music is enough.



> I'm certainly not asking for apologies. I was answering to your comment about "showing my eclecticism", when from my perspective I'm just comparing songwriters, and I don't have any "america first" bias (even if american music has produced the majority of my favorite music)


I don't see how the comparison is relevant. It takes more to make a meaningful comparison than they both wrote songs.



> I suspect you could appreciate Rosa Balistreri. One the greatest popular italian singers (she was from Palermo, the city also of Giuni Russo, another amazing singer, altough completely different). I said once that she sung like certain flamenco singers.


Thanks, I'll listen. I do enjoy Flamenco quite a lot.


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## Guest (Nov 16, 2020)

After hearing Hitler's take on "Highway 61" lets present an alternative viewpoint courtesy of Bruce Springsteen and his induction speech for Bob Dylan's entry into the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame in which Bruce speaks about the effect Dylan's voice had upon him -


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

SanAntone said:


> _Nilsson Sings Newman_ is a great, great record. But there's nothing wrong with Randy Newman's singing. People who complain about Dylan's or Newman's singing completely miss the point. I'm the opposite when I hear a "good" singer singing their songs it robs them of some of their power.


I'm only interested in artists with a personal sound. It's pop music. I don't care about conservatory technique. I tuned out completely in the 90s when the grungers came along with their vibrato laden baritone moaning. Harry Nilsson was a great artist who I find very compelling and enjoyable to listen to.


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

SanAntone said:


> I don't see how the comparison is relevant. It takes more to make a meaningful comparison than they both wrote songs.


I was just arguing about the idea brought by Kieran that in terms of quality there aren't other songwriters as good as Dylan.


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

norman bates said:


> I was just arguing about the idea brought by Kieran that in terms of quality there aren't other songwriters as good as Dylan.


Well, it's all a matter of taste anyway. There is no right or wrong answer, you're both right for yourselves.


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

Dylan and the Band said:


> It's apparent at this point of the thread that most will have differing opinions with no hope of reaching even a rudimentary consensus...
> 
> Even Hitler had an opinion... This clip may get this thread kicked into the netherworld of "Religion and Politics" - if so, my apologies... but it was worth it.


So good. Especially the Mumford and Son reference. :lol:


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

Dylan and the Band said:


> Seriously? - I have to explain the literary use of "irony"?
> 
> _Irony_ - "the expression of one's meaning by using language that normally signifies the opposite, typically for humorous or emphatic effect"


Seriously? You must not have heard this advice:

"Irony and sarcasm do not translate well over the internet, so say everything as if you mean it seriously."


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

ok, serious question. Which of this two is the best Dylan video ever?


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

They're both great: Dylan reacting to the BS that is the music business.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

I never could stomach that We Are The World song or video. Dylan looks like an outsider at an evangelical church service.


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## Guest (Nov 16, 2020)

It's a significantly better tune than one would think - play through it at least once - there are some really first rates vocals that can be heard here - Dionne Warwick, Ray Charles, and Stevie Wonder really nail it -






I've always been a huge fan of these types of songs ranging from "I'd Like To Teach The World To Sing" to "What's So Funny 'Bout Peace, Love, and Understanding?"...Maybe it's because I'm not cynical.... Maybe it's because I'm not jaded... Maybe it's because in real life I can be kind of a prick sometimes and singing these songs somehow magically makes up for all those times when I was being kind of a prick...:lol:


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

Dylan and the Band said:


> It's a significantly better tune than one would think - play through it at least once - there are some really first rates vocals that can be heard here -
> 
> 
> 
> ...


What I see is a bunch of super rich people feeling good because they seriously think they are improving the world with a bad song. There are some very talented persons there, but I can't help to find it a publicity stunt and a bit nauseating. "hey look, we are good people! Join us! And maybe then buy some of our albums because we're good people!". 
That's why the reaction of Dylan, that seems so out of place and he has the look of someone who's realizing it and asking himself "what am I even doing here?" is priceless.


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## Guest (Nov 17, 2020)

norman bates said:


> What I see is a bunch of super rich people feeling good because they seriously think they are improving the world with a bad song. There are some very talented persons there, but I can't help to find it a publicity stunt and a bit nauseating. "hey look, we are good people! Join us! And maybe then buy some of our albums because we're good people!".
> That's why the reaction of Dylan, that seems so out of place and he has the look of someone who's realizing it and asking himself "what am I even doing here?" is priceless.


And what I see is a bunch of super rich people feeling good because they actually did something to try to improve the world with a catchy tune. Everyone taking part is genuinely talented - it wasn't a publicity "stunt" because it actually accomplished something for someone other than themselves- and your finding it "nauseating" says more about you personally than it does about the song, the cause, and the performers and for that you should be profoundly ashamed of yourself.

"Since its release, "We Are the World" has raised over $63 million (equivalent to $147 million today) for humanitarian causes. Ninety percent of the money was pledged to African relief, both long and short term."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/We_Ar...release,% 20"We Are,both long and short term.

Read the section entitled - "Humanitarian Aid"

Watch Dylan's rehearsal for "We Are The World" -

Why does he look the way he does? - Probably because he was completely wasted...






This page is a humorous minute by minute narrative of the rehearsal -

https://grantland.com/hollywood-pro...the-80s-bob-dylan-rehearses-we-are-the-world/


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

From the Masked and Anonymous soundtrack.


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

Dylan and the Band said:


> And what I see is a bunch of super rich people feeling good because they actually did something to try to improve the world with a catchy tune.
> 
> Everyone taking part is genuinely talented - it wasn't a publicity "stunt" because it actually accomplished something for someone other than themselves- and your finding it "nauseating" says more about you personally than it does about the song, the cause, and the performers and for that you should be profoundly ashamed of yourself.
> 
> "Since its release, "We Are the World" has raised over $63 million (equivalent to $147 million today) for humanitarian causes. Ninety percent of the money was pledged to African relief, both long and short term."


I feel nauseated because looking at the big picture I see that's how the capitalist system excuses itself probably. I'm not saying that charity does not have a good effect. But I feel that it's like the system that does the economic damage to poor people than can keep the conscience clean with charity. That money looks like a lot, but at the end of the day is not. Sure it's better than nothing. But still, that's what I see: a rich world that exploits the third world, and then feels good with some public charity.
But I feel we're going a lot off topic, I wanted to share a couple of funny videos, I'm not in the mood for this kind of discussion.


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## Kieran (Aug 24, 2010)

norman bates said:


> I feel nauseated because looking at the big picture I see that's how the capitalist system excuses itself probably. I'm not saying that charity does not have a good effect. But I feel that it's like the system that does the economic damage to poor people than can keep the conscience clean with charity. That money looks like a lot, but at the end of the day is not. Sure it's better than nothing. But still, that's what I see: a rich world that exploits the third world, and then feels good with some public charity.
> But I feel we're going a lot off topic, I wanted to share a couple of funny videos, I'm not in the mood for this kind of discussion.


I think Dylan's reaction to it - and his performance at Live Aid - shows a certain reticence and disbelief on his part, as if the whole thing is a dubious exercise designed to overwhelm its critics with pop stars and glitter. I'm surprised he took part, and was especially baffled by his Live Aid performance, but from this came Farm Aid, an annual concert to help struggling farmers and their families. I don't know if Farm Aid is a good thing or not, but he's played there twice and the one performance I saw of him there, he was far more lively and engaged than at Live Aid. It was actually as if he was enjoying himself...


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

Too much politics and incompetence involved with these do-gooder efforts that in many cases end up with a misappropriation of funds.


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## Strange Magic (Sep 14, 2015)

It would be great if "we" had a choice, a binary choice, between charity--whether "good" charity or "bad, crummy, nauseating" charity--and no charity at all a la the ideas of Oscar Wilde, wherein a proper socialist regime in its fairness and equality of distribution made charity extinct as totally unnecessary.

But we don't. So we must perhaps be nauseated by Live Aid, etc. and watch some good being done. Or just sit out the whole thing and complain from the sidelines about the tastelessness and/or the politics and/or the self-promotion.

Another case of the Perfect at war with the Good.


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## Kieran (Aug 24, 2010)

Strange Magic said:


> It would be great if "we" had a choice, a binary choice, between charity--whether "good" charity or "bad, crummy, nauseating" charity--and no charity at all a la the ideas of Oscar Wilde, wherein a proper socialist regime in its fairness and equality of distribution made charity extinct as totally unnecessary.
> 
> But we don't. So we must perhaps be nauseated by Live Aid, etc. and watch some good being done. Or just sit out the whole thing and complain from the sidelines about the tastelessness and/or the politics and/or the self-promotion.
> 
> Another case of the Perfect at war with the Good.


Well I suppose the argument against things like live aid is that they weren't doing good, they weren't building up or enabling people, they were just a good old fund raiser where everyone can loudly ejaculate their self praise while not even making a dent in the problem. It's a version of the white man saviour story. I wouldn't completely go along with this because the intention was very good, and if nothing else it raised awareness and the money also had to have done somebody some good. It was better than doing nothing, in other words, and in many ways, much better than doing nothing...


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

Strange Magic said:


> It would be great if "we" had a choice, a binary choice, between charity--whether "good" charity or "bad, crummy, nauseating" charity--and no charity at all a la the ideas of Oscar Wilde, wherein a proper socialist regime in its fairness and equality of distribution made charity extinct as totally unnecessary.
> 
> But we don't. So we must perhaps be nauseated by Live Aid, etc. and watch some good being done. Or just sit out the whole thing and complain from the sidelines about the tastelessness and/or the politics and/or the self-promotion.
> 
> Another case of the Perfect at war with the Good.


Maybe I didn't explained myself well. I don't have anything against charity in itself, even if I said what I've said, beucase of course something is better than nothing. 
It's the song itself that I find repulsive because it communicates that sentiment of "we're are the good people, join us".


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## Strange Magic (Sep 14, 2015)

I am just, I guess, a sentimental old fool and idealist (when it comes to aspirations for a better world), but I watched and listened again to _We Are The World_ and again looked at the lyrics. No nausea. I thought the notion of tying the (former) "children" of Rock, now at the writing of the song, how old? but in several senses children still--to the existing children of the world, to be quite effective at providing a sense of unity (WE are the children). Jackson and Richie did a good and clever job!

There comes a time
When we heed a certain call
When the world must come together as one
There are people dying
Oh, and it's time to lend a hand to life
The greatest gift of all
We can't go on
Pretending day-by-day
That someone, somewhere soon make a change
We're all a part of God's great big family
And the truth, you know, love is all we need
We are the world
We are the children
We are the ones who make a brighter day, so let's start giving
There's a choice we're making
We're saving our own lives
It's true we'll make a better day, just you and me
Oh, send them your heart
So they know that someone cares
And their lives will be stronger and free
As God has shown us by turning stones to bread
And so we all must lend a helping hand
We are the world
We are the children
We are the ones who make a brighter day, so let's start giving
Oh, there's a choice we're making
We're saving our own lives
It's true we'll make a better day, just you and me
When you're down and out, there seems no hope at all
But if you just believe there's no way we can fall
Well, well, well, well let us realize
Oh, that a change can only come
When we stand together as one, yeah, yeah, yeah

(and so forth.....)


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

Strange Magic said:


> I am just, I guess, a sentimental old fool and idealist (when it comes to aspirations for a better world)


I think I could say the same for myself, it's just that I don't like that sense of self-congratulation because I can't avoid to think about all the contradictions of a rich world helping the third world that way. Even if that money (a droplet in the ocean in any case) has been certainly useful to some. Don't be so proud. The day after the song we kept exploiting them in many ways. Michael Jackson went back to his super privileged life of a billionaire person.


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## Strange Magic (Sep 14, 2015)

Wikipedia on the Philanthropy/Charity of Michael Jackson:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philanthropy_of_Michael_Jackson

We certainly are getting off-track here, but I agree that we very badly need a better-ordered world, with populations reduced to sustainable size, full equality for women (perhaps the best path to the former), and benevolent, rational, humane government. I happen to share Oscar Wilde's critique of private charity as a feel-good that, in some cases, stands in the way of real social change. But, still, one must often be somewhat content with what one can get. Bill Gates, Warren Buffett, George Soros (The Horror!) all do their bit to ameliorate gross suffering, as do I in my own limited way. Again, the Perfect measured against the Good.


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

Come on, can't someone vote for Dylan so we can have a tie?


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

Strange Magic said:


> Wikipedia on the Philanthropy/Charity of Michael Jackson:
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philanthropy_of_Michael_Jackson
> 
> We certainly are getting off-track here, but I agree that we very badly need a better-ordered world, with populations reduced to sustainable size, full equality for women (perhaps the best path to the former), and benevolent, rational, humane government. I happen to share Oscar Wilde's critique of private charity as a feel-good that, in some cases, stands in the way of real social change. But, still, one must often be somewhat content with what one can get. Bill Gates, Warren Buffett, George Soros (The Horror!) all do their bit to ameliorate gross suffering, as do I in my own limited way. Again, the Perfect measured against the Good.


look, I can agree with what you're saying here. And I'm not saying that rich persons are evil, or that their charity is something that can't be useful. I was just explaining why I strongly dislike the sentiment of that song as a listener. It reminds me of certain commercials I hear every year that says something like "during Christmas we are all better persons", which I can't help to get as "all the other days we can be worse".


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## Guest (Nov 18, 2020)

Kieran said:


> I think Dylan's reaction to it - and his performance at Live Aid - shows a certain reticence and disbelief on his part, as if the whole thing is a dubious exercise designed to overwhelm its critics with pop stars and glitter. I'm surprised he took part, and was especially baffled by his Live Aid performance, but from this came Farm Aid, an annual concert to help struggling farmers and their families. I don't know if Farm Aid is a good thing or not, but he's played there twice and the one performance I saw of him there, he was far more lively and engaged than at Live Aid. It was actually as if he was enjoying himself...


I'm going to attempt to put this issue into perspective even though I know that I will come to bitterly regret having done so...

Kieran - I've read your various writings on Bob Dylan's music and they are uniformly well-written, informative, and provide insightful analysis that illuminates on that which separates art from craft and for that you have my compliments.

You've willingly chosen to focus your efforts on Bob Dylan as the "artist" rather than Bob Dylan the "person" - which is a wise course to take as the adage "Don't meet your heroes" is heartbreakingly true (Notable exception - Geddy Lee - I'll tell those stories sometime and someplace else although, word to the wise, don't get him started on baseball... by the time he finishes talking about what he would do if he were the general manager of the Toronto Blue Jays you could watch an entire Wagner Ring cycle... even one conducted by Celibidache....

However... you've consistently written words which suggest that Dylan's lackluster uninspired under-rehearsed performances (We Are The World and Live Aid) were somehow intentional - that he was consciously making a decision to show his disdain - his contempt - for the underlying concept behind each event by willingly "underperforming" as a way of making a clearly delineated statement about the inherent hypocrisy underlying the collective effort to address a problem (the threat of a an entire people literally starving to death) with an attempt to provide the first steps of a potential resolution (to raise funds by raising consciousness which leads to the very literal "raising of crops" to combat the very real threat of extinction by means of death by starvation).

And so Kieran, if you want to maintain the purity of your vision of Bob Dylan as a noble and heroic "artist"... Stop reading... Seriously... Scroll down and read something else...

Bob Dylan is indeed an "artist" - of profound significance and importance - popular music would not be recognizable today were it not for his influence upon everything and everyone that followed.

Having said that... The "artist" is not the same as the "performer". The "performer" is an actual living and breathing human being who steps out from behind the curtain and onto the stage (whether a recording studio or a stage for a live performance) and the quality of that performance is dependent upon the mental and physical well-being (or absence of) of that actual living and breathing human being.

Bob Dylan's substance abuse issues are well-documented in interviews (both his and others - notably Robbie Robertson) and numerous biographies. Heroin in the mid 60's, cocaine from the early 70's to the mid 90's, marijuana from 1960 to probably last night, and alcohol dating pre-1960 and again, to probably last night.

During the time frame of both "We Are The World" and "Live Aid" cocaine was the drug of choice. One of the problems with cocaine (aside from the addiction aspect, of course) is attempting to "calibrate" one's high with either (or usually both) marijuana and/or alcohol in an attempt to moderate that "walking on the ceiling, climbing up the walls, talking a thousand miles an hour" sensation.

Watch the "We Are The World" rehearsal video in one of my posts above... This is what you should look for - the number of times Bob loses his balance trying to stand still, the number of times Bob spins in circles, the number of times Bob ask Stevie Wonder to play the melody on the piano because he can't follow the actual recorded tune. (Note: watch for the section in which Dylan is standing next to the piano listening to Stevie Wonder do a Bob Dylan impression in which he's attempting to teach Bob Dylan how to sing like Bob Dylan because the real Bob Dylan is so completely wasted that he can't follow any two of the three chords which comprise the entire tune), watch the number of times Dylan needs to read the lyrics (all four lines) off of the cheat sheet he's holding, watch the number of times he comes in early, comes in late, starts off flat and ends up sharp, starts off sharp and ends up flat, watch Quincy Jones "compliment" Dylan when his voice strays from one end of the octave to the other.

"Live Aid" - 1985 - Dylan shows up without a band (there is some dispute as to whether he actually intended to go on solo or he just forgot about the "needing to have a band" part). In a rare moment of clarity he realizes that trying to put together a pick-up band 30 minutes before going on may entail logistical problems that may be insurmountable. He's walking around backstage and comes upon Ron Wood (struggling with heroin addiction) and Keith Richard (struggling with heroin addiction) and he decides to do an acoustic set. Wood and Richard (although both obviously impaired) are pros and so it takes them like 10 minutes to figure out the three chords which comprise each of the three tunes which are going to be performed. Dylan (cocaine "calibrated" with either marijuana or alcohol - probably both) struggles through all three tunes - his face is bloated, his eyes are glassy, and he (as usual) has difficulty standing up without losing his balance. The performance is a train-wreck - not because Dylan is "noble" and he's making a statement about the hypocrisy of the concept/event but because he's so completely wasted that it's a wonder that he was able to get though his set but by 1985 he had had over 20 years worth of experience performing live while under the influence.

There are videos being posted here in which Dylan appears to not know where he's at or what he's doing... That's because Dylan is so totally f***** up that he literally does not know where he's at or what he doing. Whenever you see him with that "deer in the headlights" look - he's wasted - just completely wasted.

In conclusion - a note about my user name... I chose "Dylan and the Band" because I was listening to "Planet Waves" on the morning that I found out that I was banned from Hoffman and decided to become a member here... If I had waited until the afternoon, my user name would have been "Spice Girls"...


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

^^^
Why waste time talking about this stuff? A big, overblown charity event which has nothing to do with an artist's regular activities of touring with with their own band. Even Phil Collins hit an embarrassing wrong note on the piano while singing one of his hits. I didn't watch much of this farce when it took place. The only thing I enjoyed was the blues trio of Albert Collins, Robert Cray, and Johnny Copland. Other than that I had no interest in this ego driven rock star event.


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## Guest (Nov 18, 2020)

starthrower said:


> ^^^
> Why waste time talking about this stuff? A big, overblown charity event which has nothing to do with an artist's regular activities of touring with with their own band. Even Phil Collins hit an embarrassing wrong note on the piano while singing one of his hits. I didn't watch much of this farce when it took place. The only thing I enjoyed was the blues trio of Albert Collins, Robert Cray, and Johnny Copland. Other than that I had no interest in this ego driven rock star event.


It's a discussion forum, right?

Were you coerced into reading the post against your will?

Were you coerced into replying with a post in which you expressed your lack of interest in a subject in which you have no interest?

No one here has to play by your rules as to what is or isn't permissible.

You're a "Senior Member" - not a moderator, not the thread starter, not even a particularly interesting poster.

You're even crabbier here than you are at Hoffman (ST-62) - Granted, you have health issues which are affecting your mental well-being - but Your unrelenting remorseless negativity and sour as green apples disposition makes you kind of a drag to associate with and the best advice I can offer is to avoid me as assiduously as I will avoid you.

Put me on "ignore" - I'm trying to raise the collective IQ of my readership...


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

Dylan and the Band said:


> Put me on "ignore" - I'm trying to raise the collective IQ of my readership...


Oh, I see. But we already have our resident instructor in Millionrainbows. Did you raise the IQ of Hoffman forum members before you got banned?


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## Strange Magic (Sep 14, 2015)

FWIW, I personally very much enjoyed the Live Aid concert, appreciated the concept, appreciated the effort, loved almost all the performances. The older I get, the more saddened I become at the enormous metastasis of cynicism that seems to have gripped many of my peers--it seems sometimes like a strange and suffocating mucus engulfing so many around me. Perhaps I, thankfully, am mentally ill and thus happily unaware of my own idealism as a curse.


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## Guest (Nov 18, 2020)

Decided to delete the reply as I was inspired by the spirit of Strange Magic and thus allow me to provide the following as a way to make a fresh start -

As I walk through this wicked world
Searchin' for light in the darkness of insanity
I ask myself, "Is all hope lost?
Is there only pain and hatred and misery?"
And each time I feel like this inside
There's one thing I wanna know
What's so funny 'bout peace, love and understanding?
What's so funny 'bout peace, love and understanding?
And as I walk on through troubled times
My spirit gets so downhearted sometimes
So where are the strong and who are the trusted?
And where is the harmony, sweet harmony?
'Cause each time I feel it slippin' away
Just makes me wanna cry
What's so funny 'bout peace, love and understanding?
What's so funny 'bout peace, love and understanding?
So where are the strong and who are the trusted?
And where is the harmony, sweet harmony?
'Cause each time I feel it slippin' away
Just makes me wanna cry
What's so funny 'bout peace, love and understanding?
What's so funny 'bout peace, love and understanding?
What's so funny 'bout peace, love and understanding?






Those fab-looking dancers stage-left to Elvis Costello are The Bangles...


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

Dylan and the Band said:


> I'm trying to raise the collective IQ of my readership...


maybe I don't get the context and it's just a joke but... are you serious?


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## Strange Magic (Sep 14, 2015)

norman bates said:


> maybe I don't get the context and it's just a joke but... are you serious?


He is being serious and playful.:lol:

From Wikipedia:

The Will Rogers phenomenon is obtained when moving an element from one set to another set raises the average values of both sets. It is based on the following quote, attributed (perhaps incorrectly) to comedian Will Rogers:

"When the Okies left Oklahoma and moved to California, they raised the average intelligence level in both states."

The effect will occur when both of these conditions are met:

The element being moved is below average for its current set. Removing it will, by definition, raise the average of the remaining elements.
The element being moved is above the current average of the set it is entering. Adding it to the new set will, by definition, raise the average.


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## Kieran (Aug 24, 2010)

Dylan and the Band said:


> I'm going to attempt to put this issue into perspective even though I know that I will come to bitterly regret having done so...
> 
> Kieran - I've read your various writings on Bob Dylan's music and they are uniformly well-written, informative, and provide insightful analysis that illuminates on that which separates art from craft and for that you have my compliments.
> 
> ...


There's a helluva lot of assumption in this post, about myself at first, which is wholly inaccurate, and about Bob Dylan, which is none of my business but sounds like you projected some gossips onto old Bob and decided to run with them.

But if I was to judge the accuracy of the whole from this (slightly longwinded and overwrought) sentence - "you've consistently written words which suggest that Dylan's lackluster uninspired under-rehearsed performances (We Are The World and Live Aid) were somehow intentional - that he was consciously making a decision to show his disdain - his contempt - for the underlying concept behind each event by willingly "underperforming" as a way of making a clearly delineated statement about the inherent hypocrisy underlying the collective effort to address a problem (the threat of a an entire people literally starving to death) with an attempt to provide the first steps of a potential resolution (to raise funds by raising consciousness which leads to the very literal "raising of crops" to combat the very real threat of extinction by means of death by starvation)" - then I'd have to unfortunately conclude that you might be wrong about the lot of it...


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## Guest (Nov 19, 2020)

Here's my first sentence -

"I'm going to attempt to put this issue into perspective even though I know that I will come to bitterly regret having done so..."

I was right.

"Long-winded"? - I probably should have tightened it up but I didn't for two reasons - a.) I'm too lazy to do so and b.) I'm too lazy to do so. and c.) I've never met a run-on sentence that I didn't like... Wait... Hold on... one... two... Change that to "I probably should have tightened it up but I didn't for _three_ reasons..."

There are no "assumptions" in the post contrary to what you might think - least of all about you - If anything I went out of my way to praise the work you've done.

If you want me to retract this statement - "Kieran - I've read your various writings on Bob Dylan's music and they are uniformly well-written, informative, and provide insightful analysis that illuminates on that which separates art from craft and for that you have my compliments."

Consider it retracted...

How exactly did I "project gossip" on Bob Dylan? I was relying on interviews given by him and the players involved - If you want to argue with Bob Dylan's version of what actually happened - if you want to disregard the video evidence - knock yourself out.

He was an addict - heroin, cocaine, marijuana, alcohol - and it affected his work, his life, and his performances - and he was the one who brought this information to light in his own words not me.

Continue to dwell happily in reality-defying delusional fantasy land replete with the leprechauns and banshees with my best wishes but there's no glory in being a Dylan apologist... Unless I'm the Dylan you're being an apologist for in which case it's perfectly cool.

One last point - look up the definition of "overwrought" - so that next time you'll use it in it's proper context...

And as always... give some serious thought to putting me on "Ignore" as I desperately need to raise the collective IQ of my readership as this is leading inexorably towards the slough of despond...


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## Kieran (Aug 24, 2010)

Dylan and the Band said:


> Here's my first sentence -
> 
> "I'm going to attempt to put this issue into perspective even though I know that I will come to bitterly regret having done so..."
> 
> ...


I never put people on ignore, and I like your admission about how and why you go on and on, it's a fine sense of humour and made me laugh.

You wrote that I "consistently...." whereas of course, I didn't consistently do anything, including say that he deliberately effed up his performance.

As for his "admission" that he was addicted to "heroin, cocaine, marijuana, alcohol" in the mid-80's, I'd need a source for this, because it isn't anything I'd heard before...

EDIT: I used the word "overwrought" because you have the American habit of using the word "literally" too often, as if the use of it forbids contradiction, but i also used it because of your emotional remarks about "the threat of an entire people *literally *(natch) starving to death..."


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## Guest (Nov 19, 2020)

Kieran said:


> I never put people on ignore, and I like your admission about how and why you go on and on, it's a fine sense of humour and made me laugh.
> 
> You wrote that I "consistently...." whereas of course, I didn't consistently do anything, including say that he deliberately effed up his performance.
> 
> ...


The repeated use of "literally" was a "literary device" - one that I literally only used in this one post.

Canadians don't have "American habits" - Americans have "American habits" - As a people we know that the word "literally" is not a synonym for "figuratively".

I'm genuinely glad that you're unaware of his substance abuse issues and I'm not going to be the one to enlighten you. The information is out there - interviews and books too numerous to name but all of them easily searchable. Take my advice - don't go there - once you do, there's no going back.

The nature of my profession is such that I've come in contact with a great many people whose names would be readily recognizable but I no longer, as a rule, disclose any such information about what they're actually like and what I've personally witnessed. It's next to impossible to "name-drop" without being nauseatingly obnoxious and About the fifth or sixth time that a dear friend would tell me "I kind of hate you for telling me that about (whoever) - you kind of ruined everything for me" - I just stopped. The only exceptions that I make are anecdotes which, in some way, reflect positively upon the intended subject. I'll occasionally identify something humourous about one the "good guys" like Geddy Lee's complete inability to stop talking about baseball but will refrain from mentioning anything about the "bad guys".


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## mparta (Sep 29, 2020)

I certainly don't have the strength to get into someone else's controversy, much less generate my own, but....

There's a hilarious interview, I think CBC, with Joni discussing Dylan, a great put down.

After the Nobel Prize, which I didn't understand, i decided a look was indicated, so I started ordering the set of concert tapes, the long series of recorded concerts going back to the 60s. I just think it's all garbage, sorry. I wasn't old enough in the 60s to hear this and in fact first remember him in his "christian" incarnation and thereafter, which was odd and interesting but not really good.

Joni Mitchell, on the other hand, to me is in a class of her own as a songwriter, from Shadows and Light through every note on Court and Spark and much before and after. It's the oddest thing that the youngest people, these great songwriters in their youth, write such telling poetry appropriate to a vastly more mature age. Jackson Browne, "sometimes I lie awake at night and wonder where the years have gone, waiting to pass under sleep's dark and silent gate", lump in the throat just typing it. Springsteen. And Adele, all of 25 when she wrote "when we were young". So to hear the mature Joni sing Clouds on her standards album, with a version of Case of You that just rips it up, very moving and poetry that sticks with me. I could type lines of Joni Mitchell all day from memory. There's a reason "we are stardust, million year old carbon" keeps showing up.

I heard Joni do that standards album with the big orchestra twice at Madison Square Garden. The second night I warned my neighbor about Case of You and when I look at her during the performance, tears streaming down her face. Did Dylan ever do that to anyone? that's not just a rhetorical question, I really wonder.

maybe I should try again, but I have a very bad taste in my mouth from those live tapes, it's not the performances, i found the lyrics to be drivel. The Nobel committee doesn't really have a stellar record, Romain Rolland and Martin du Gard but not Celine or Proust, really? kudos for Patrick Modiano though.

Came to this late and appreciate that someone mentioned Randy Newman, now lost in the mists of a world that thinks that rap and hiphop are music (but there might be some poetry there) and that Beyonce and Taylor Swift can be mentioned in the same breath as Adele. Wow, I'm old enough to have my typewriter taken away from me before I hurt myself!!

There's even an Okie joke in this thread. Always good for that.


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## Strange Magic (Sep 14, 2015)

Dylan on _Blood on the Tracks_, in the songs You're a Big Girl Now and If You See Her, Say Hello, gets quite vulnerable and poignantly tender. And Hurricane conveys a sense of rage quite removed from Dylan's other "rage" songs wherein he is the enraged victim. His catalog is so huge that one can find whatever one wants to find in it, whatever one is looking for, good or bad. The sheer fecundity finally triggered my breaking my internal tie and voting for Dylan, much as I love Joni.


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## Kieran (Aug 24, 2010)

Dylan and the Band said:


> I'm genuinely glad that you're unaware of his substance abuse issues and I'm not going to be the one to enlighten you. The information is out there - interviews and books too numerous to name but all of them easily searchable. Take me advice - don't go there - once you do, there's no going back.


You could help me out by citing one article, or one book, that contains an interview with Bob Dylan himself admitting that he - literally - was addicted to "heroin, cocaine, marijuana, alcohol" in the mid-80's.

Take your time, I check in every now and then...


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## Guest (Nov 19, 2020)

Kieran said:


> You could help me out by citing one article, or one book, that contains an interview with Bob Dylan himself admitting that he - literally - was addicted to "heroin, cocaine, marijuana, alcohol" in the mid-80's.
> 
> Take your time, I check in every now and then...


Bob Dylan says he was a heroin addict...

Rolling Stone magazine writes - https://www.rollingstone.com/music/...laim-that-he-was-once-a-heroin-addict-247842/

"None of this proves that Dylan was lying about his heroin addiction, but the worst source of info about Dylan's past is often Dylan himself."

John Lennon said that he and Dylan were using heroin -

https://www.rollingstone.com/music/...nd-john-lennons-drugged-out-limo-ride-155141/

Lennon recalled the incident vividly when speaking to Rolling Stone cofounder Jann Wenner in 1970. "We were both in shades and both on ******* junk, and all these freaks around us. I was anxious as ****. … In the film, I'm just blabbing off and commenting all the time, like you do when you're very high or stoned.

Rolling Stone magazine says "Whether they were actually on heroin (a.k.a. "junk") is uncertain."

Joni Mitchell said (in regard to the Rolling Thunder tour) - " "Clowns used to be paid in booze, so I said, 'Pay me in cocaine,' because everybody was out of their minds."

https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/arts-letters/articles/bob-dylan-rolling-thunder-tour

Believe whoever you want to believe - Dylan, Lennon, Mitchell, all three, two of the three, one of the three, none of the three, Rolling Stone... I honestly don't care because once my original post was reported to the mods and deleted I lost all interest in pursuing this topic further...


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## Kieran (Aug 24, 2010)

You should have let the dog eat your homework, it might have enjoyed its dinner more. A brief DuckDuckGo presents this:

https://www.rollingstone.com/music/...laim-that-he-was-once-a-heroin-addict-247842/

Now, Bob's 1960's are matter of legend, myth and fable, but there have *never *been credible rumours that he was an addict to anything other than occasional drinking spells since then. Yes, he has most likely taken drugs, but there's *never *been a suggestion that he was a cocaine addict until the 90's, or anything else - not from him. Even his 60's admissions are bound to leave us wondering, but without any certainty.

Let me steer you back gently to your problem, which goes back to my first reply to you on this topic: you said that I have "*consistently *written words which suggest that Dylan's lackluster uninspired under-rehearsed performances (We Are The World and Live Aid) were somehow intentional." Etc.

According to you, I said this, though I didn't.

According to you he has admitted to having a cocaine addiction which stretched into the 90's. He *didn't *admit to this in any interview. He said something back in the 60's which may or may not have been typical Bob mythmaking, and nothing since then.

In Rolling Stone in 1984, he said "he didn't get hooked on any drug", and in the song notes for Biograph in 1985, he says (when discussing Mr. Tambourine Man), "drugs never played a part in that song...'disappearing in the smoke rings of my mind'...that's not drugs, drugs were never that big a thing with me. I could take 'm or leave 'm, never hung me up."

So, we can't say his "lacklustre uninspired under-rehearsed performances" for the charity songs in the 80's were down to drugs, and I didn't say they were intentional, so what could they be down to?

Dylan himself said they couldn't hear their own music on stage because behind the curtain the ensemble were loudly rehearsing, but really, I think there may have been another reason why he wasn't on form for these gigs, but was on form for Farm Aid, but I'll let you figure that one out for yourself...


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## Kieran (Aug 24, 2010)

Dylan and the Band said:


> Once you clicked the "Report" button and ratted me out to the mods I lost all respect for you and thus I will not engage in this or any other issue with you.
> 
> Believe what you want to believe...


Now you're being unbelievably evasive and immature. I don't press ignore, and I don't report people. I sit and type replies to them, politely and patiently. You said nothing to me that I should report, and if you had, I would most likely still reply politely, and patiently, as I always do...


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## Guest (Nov 19, 2020)

Kieran said:


> Now you're being unbelievably evasive and immature. I don't press ignore, and I don't report people. I sit and type replies to them, politely and patiently. You said nothing to me that I should report, and if you had, I would most likely still reply politely, and patiently, as I always do...


The post is back - it's numbered 251 for some reason - it should have been here but it's two back.

My apologies for the accusation - it was unfair and uncharitable of me - I didn't realize that someone else was on the thread with us.

I'm reprinting it here in case it disappears once again -

Bob Dylan says he was a heroin addict...

Rolling Stone magazine writes - https://www.rollingstone.com/music/m...addict-247842/

"None of this proves that Dylan was lying about his heroin addiction, but the worst source of info about Dylan's past is often Dylan himself."

John Lennon said that he and Dylan were using heroin -

https://www.rollingstone.com/music/m...o-ride-155141/

Lennon recalled the incident vividly when speaking to Rolling Stone cofounder Jann Wenner in 1970. "We were both in shades and both on ******* junk, and all these freaks around us. I was anxious as ****. … In the film, I'm just blabbing off and commenting all the time, like you do when you're very high or stoned.

Rolling Stone magazine says "Whether they were actually on heroin (a.k.a. "junk") is uncertain."

Joni Mitchell said (in regard to the Rolling Thunder tour) - " "Clowns used to be paid in booze, so I said, 'Pay me in cocaine,' because everybody was out of their minds."

https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/a...g-thunder-tour

Believe whoever you want to believe - Dylan, Lennon, Mitchell, all three, two of the three, one of the three, none of the three, Rolling Stone...


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## Kieran (Aug 24, 2010)

Dylan and the Band said:


> I can't reply - I changed the post considerably - but they're being deleted as quickly as I post them...
> 
> I had six paragraphs of comments that I worked on for 30 minutes with references and they disappeared.
> 
> ...


Don't worry about that, and I read your long reply, by the way. The main thing is, don't forget to vote - there's 21 people here who voted wrongly...


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## Guest (Nov 19, 2020)

Kieran said:


> Don't worry about that, and I read your long reply, by the way. The main thing is, don't forget to vote - there's 21 people here who voted wrongly...


Once again, my apologies, Kieran - it was unfair and uncharitable - I'm letting personal problems (the kinds with literally no solution - the kinds that lead to despair and anger and heartbreak) affect my behaviour - my better judgement - and based on the tone and tenor of my "voice" it's apparent that I need to pull back for a while and try to accept the inevitable changes that life brings.

Gach dea-ghuí, a chara, agus arís tá súil agam go nglacfaidh tú mo leithscéal. Is as Baile Átha Cliath mé, táim measartha cinnte nach labhraíonn tú Gàidhlig ach is fiú triail a bhaint as.


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## Kieran (Aug 24, 2010)

Dylan and the Band said:


> Once again, my apologies, Kieran - it was unfair and uncharitable - I'm letting personal problems (the kinds with literally no solution - the kinds that lead to despair and anger and heartbreak) affect my behaviour - my better judgement - and based on the tone and tenor of my "voice" it's apparent that I need to pull back for a while and try to accept the inevitable changes that life brings.
> 
> Gach dea-ghuí, a chara, agus arís tá súil agam go nglacfaidh tú mo leithscéal. Is as Baile Átha Cliath mé, táim measartha cinnte nach labhraíonn tú Gàidhlig ach is fiú triail a bhaint as.


Ah ha! A nice touch. It's much appreciated. Unfortunately, I'd love to speak a cupla focal but I was turned against it in school. I'm from Dublin too, Coolock on the north side. But also, I know how forums are, we all get a little worked up at times, I've been in your shoes, and really, it's not worth it. This was nothing.

I hope things get sorted for you with your personal problems!


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## Guest (Nov 20, 2020)

Kieran said:


> Ah ha! A nice touch. It's much appreciated. Unfortunately, I'd love to speak a cupla focal but I was turned against it in school. I'm from Dublin too, Coolock on the north side. But also, I know how forums are, we all get a little worked up at times, I've been in your shoes, and really, it's not worth it. This was nothing.
> 
> I hope things get sorted for you with your personal problems!


Something got lost in translation, Kieran. I'm not from Dublin - I'm French-Canadian - (Montréal).

I was using a translator for the first time - I was trying to figure out how this guy from "English Canada" was able to translate the humourously insulting posts that I was writing and then respond in this kind of awkwardly phrased French. The number of people in London, Ontario who can actually speak French is slightly less than the number of leprechauns who can do so.

I wanted to personalize my post to you and so I entered this into the translator -

"Best wishes, my friend, and once again I hope you will accept my apology. As you're from Dublin I'm fairly certain that you're not able to read Irish but it was worth a try".

which came out as -

"Gach dea-ghuí, a chara, agus tá súil agam arís go nglacfaidh tú mo leithscéal. Toisc gur as Baile Átha Cliath mé tá mé measartha cinnte nach bhfuil tú in ann Gaeilge a léamh ach b'fhiú triail a bhaint as".

And I didn't give it a second thought until I read your reply and realized that something was wrong.

I plugged the Irish sentence back into the translator and this is what came out -

"All the best, dear, and again I hope you will accept my apology. Because I'm from Dublin I'm pretty sure you can't read Irish but it was worth a try."

Which is quite obviously not the intent of my statement - I should have reversed the sentence to see if it translated properly but I didn't for two reasons - a.) I was kind of tired, b.) I'm just too lazy and c.) occasionally I can be kind of surprisingly stupid sometimes... Wait... Hold on... One... Two... Damn... Make that "... but I didn't for three reasons..."

I hope you're not disappointed that I'm not from Dublin. The only thing that I know about Ireland (other than leprechauns and banshees) is that the country is beautiful and that the people are horrible, just horrible... Wait... That doesn't sound right... Hold on, I have to ask my wife something... Okay, I'm back... It's not Ireland in which the country is beautiful and the people are horrible, just horrible - It's England that I was thinking of - not Ireland - Sorry, Ireland... I'll try not to make that mistake again.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

One last note to "Barbebleu" - if you're going to use a French name (especially if you're British) have the courtesy to at least spell it properly - with an "e" at the end - _Barbe-Bleue_ - Occasionally, we can get kind of touchy about that and by "occasionally" I actually mean "always" - 
:lol:


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

Joni MItchell never did anything like this, just one of the more than 100 hour long radio programs put together and hosted by Bob Dylan from 2006-2009. In these shows you get some impression of the depth of knowledge Dylan had about music and all kinds of music and musicians.








> First introduced in May 2006, Theme Time Radio Hour was a weekly one-hour radio show hosted by Bob Dylan, with each episode dedicated to a different topic, including Money, Presidents, and Spring Cleaning. Throughout the show, Dylan's eclectic mix of music tracks were accompanied by his own unique brand of commentary. The show also featured humor and familiar voices calling in to ask questions and offer anecdotes. These call-in guests included Tom Waits, Merle Haggard, Elvis Costello, Astrid Gilberto, Ricky Jay, Keb Mo, Marianne Faithfull, Jack White, Amy Sedaris, Cat Power, T Bone Burnett, John Cusack, Mick Jones, and Steve Earle.
> 
> At its conclusion in April 2009, 100 episodes of Theme Time Radio Hour had aired, and the show was among the most-listened-to programs on all of satellite radio. The groundbreaking series received countless accolades during its run, including from the New York Times, which wrote, "As DJ, Mr. Dylan vamps on the lyrics of his chosen songs, and makes observations that often amount to something like what he does musically: He taps America's musical heritage with words that veer from the logically linear to the abstract," and the Washington Post, which observed, "He's voluble, generous, articulate. He's liable to quote a poem, give tips on hanging drywall or pass along a recipe." (sirius)


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

Dylan and the Band said:


> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> One last note to "Barbebleu" - if you're going to use a French name (especially if you're British) have the courtesy to at least spell it properly - with an "e" at the end - _Barbe-Bleue_ - Occasionally, we can get kind of touchy about that and by "occasionally" I actually mean "always" -
> :lol:


Oh, you're confusing me with someone who cares!

Well if I was using it as a French name you'd be perfectly correct, but I'm not! C'est la vie!:tiphat:


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

A great half hour!


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