# SOPRANO TOURNAMENT: (Round 1, Match 4): Tebaldi vs Ponselle



## Bonetan (Dec 22, 2016)

Renata Tebaldi, Italy, 1922-2004






Rosa Ponselle, USA, 1897-1981






Who's singing did you prefer and why?


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## MAS (Apr 15, 2015)

Now here's a how de do! I expected it would've been an easy Ponselle win. She has a beautful voice, and some nice tricks with the _diminuendi_ at the opening, great control of the voice. I did not like the breath between last _maledizione_ and "a-aaaah." for the _acuto_, which note is white and weak-ish. A very old-fashioned carried on the breath sound with no strength behind it.
But...she also sounds as if she's sight reading the thing.

Tebaldi, however sounds like there's a woman behind the music and the words, suffering, though the tempo is very slow. I liked her better in this aria.


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## Azol (Jan 25, 2015)

Second video is not available for me. But I'm sure I'll find an alternative version.


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## Aerobat (Dec 31, 2018)

Azol said:


> Second video is not available for me. But I'm sure I'll find an alternative version.


Same here - not available in my country.


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

MAS said:


> Now here's a how de do! I expected it would've been an easy Ponselle win. She has a beautful voice, and some nice tricks with the _diminuendi_ at the opening, great control of the voice. I did not like the breath between last _maledizione_ and "a-aaaah." for the _acuto_, which note is white and weak-ish. A very old-fashioned carried on the breath sound with no strength behind it.
> But...she also sounds as if she's sight reading the thing.
> 
> Tebaldi, however sounds like there's a woman behind the music and the words, suffering, though the tempo is very slow. I liked her better in this aria.


I know right? I believe this is from the 1958 Naples performance and one of the few Tebaldi recordings I actually have. I'm a huge Ponselle fan and it pains me to do it, but it has to be a vote for Tebaldi on this ocassion.

N.


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## Azol (Jan 25, 2015)

Okay, I located an alternative video of Ponselle here.

With that, I can safely proceed to vote for Tebaldi, even though her high notes have already become uneasy by this time (1958). Ponselle offers some light-weight (and abridged) performance and I'd agree with MAS that her breath intake before the last "Ah!" sounds completely out-of-place.


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## Aerobat (Dec 31, 2018)

Aerobat said:


> Same here - not available in my country.


I/ve now found two alternative Ponselle videos... this may take a few listening sessions to decide.


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

Oh boy! Talk about tough choices.
I was all set to vote for Tebaldi hands down. But then I heard the Ponselle version and my tummy was immediately swayed by the depth of feelings that she put into it so I had no choice but to pick the one that touched me the most.
Ponselle.
They were both great.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Coming down from the imaginative, masterly performance of Boninsegna and up from the dismal struggles of Netrebko to be something she isn't, we find ourselves on solid middle ground with these ladies. If pure singing is the criterion, Ponselle has a slight edge. Tebaldi puts more into the drama, but she pours it on in a strenuous, "post-verismo Italian soprano" way; I'd like a bit more inwardness and a more musically refined sculpting of the phrases. She's also slightly flat here and there. 

At first listening, I inclined slightly toward Tebaldi for her obvious passion, but with enough reservations that I had to listen again. After another round, Ponselle's greater refinement wins out, but I might change my mind tomorrow.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

This is so far my favorite of the contests. I don't think I had heard Tebaldi sing this before. I have heard all the greats sing this and Tebaldi's is the finest I have ever heard.... with the exception of Ponselle. Tebaldi's emotional involvement might even have slight edge over Ponselle and certainly her voice is one of the most miraculous sounds ever. But although Tebaldi sang the first word Pace magnificently, that one word sealed the deal for Ponselle with me. The incredible dynamics and control she wields on that one note and word leave one at a loss of words. As breathtaking as Tebaldi's version was in all aspects, Ponselle delivered almost a supernatural version sung with great elegance, passion and sensational power coupled with the incredible range of her voice with tragic richness to the lower register. Ponselle's version is the one by which all others are judged. I look forward now to seeing what my fellow reviewers think.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

I listened to the Ponselle version that Azol posted as I couldn't access the one in the original post. I don't know if they are different. Anyway, these are my thoughts.
Very hard to choose between these two wonderful versions. At first I thought I was going to go for Tebaldi in one of her best roles but what sealed it for me was the greater refinement and elegance of Ponselle's phrasing. She also has even greater control of her instrument from the very outset. Verdi asks for, but rarely gets, a _mesa di voce_ on the first note, meaning the singers should do a cresecendo and then a diminuendo on the first syllable of _Pace_ before descending to the second. Those that attempt it usually manage the crescendo, as Tebaldi does here, but not the diminuendo. Ponselle does both and her voice is rock solid. Callas does it too (how like her to observe the letter of the score) but her voice becomes unsteady when she does the diminuendo.

That is but one example of how Ponselle fulfils all the demands of the score. Ponselle wins.

Having now compared and contrasted four different versions, it shouldl be clear by now that Netrebko isn't remotely in the same class. An also ran among three giants.


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

Tsaraslondon said:


> I listened to the Ponselle version that Azol posted as I couldn't access the one in the original post. I don't know if they are different. Anyway, these are my thoughts.
> Very hard to choose between these two wonderful versions. At first I thought I was going to go for Tebaldi in one of her best roles but what sealed it for me was the greater refinement and elegance of Ponselle's phrasing. She also has even greater control of her instrument from the very outset. Verdi asks for, but rarely gets, a _mesa di voce_ on the first note, meaning the singers should do a cresecendo and then a diminuendo on the first syllable of _Pace_ before descending to the second. Those that attempt it usually manage the crescendo, as Tebaldi does here, but not the diminuendo. Ponselle does both and her voice is rock solid. Callas does it too (how like her to observe the letter of the score) but her voice becomes unsteady when she does the diminuendo.
> 
> That is but one example of how Ponselle fulfils all the demands of the score. Ponselle wins.
> ...


Yes, I didn't particularly like Boninsegna's voice, but her technique was good. I think part of the reason I choose Tebaldi over Ponselle is because I expected Ponselle to win and I'm very familiar with her performance of that aria so Tebaldi's shock value won me over. Like Woodduck, on a different day I could vote the other way.

As for her Nebs, I've been fighting saying it, but I can't hold back any longer. Her singing is worse than Callas' during the 73/4 comeback tour.

N.


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## adriesba (Dec 30, 2019)

How in the world do I chose? They're both amazing! There is one detail though that helps me decide, and that's the last note. I've noticed that some tend to sort of join that high note to the one right before it while some separate the note more. Tebaldi makes that last note stand out from the one before it. I'm not sure what the score calls for, but I find that bit of separation much more satisfying. So I'll vote for Tebaldi. It seems odd to choose based on a detail like that, but we're talking about Tebaldi vs Ponselle here.


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## Aerobat (Dec 31, 2018)

The Conte said:


> Yes, I didn't particularly like Boninsegna's voice, but her technique was good. I think part of the reason I choose Tebaldi over Ponselle is because I expected Ponselle to win and I'm very familiar with her performance of that aria so Tebaldi's shock value won me over. Like Woodduck, on a different day I could vote the other way.
> 
> As for her Nebs, I've been fighting saying it, but I can't hold back any longer. Her singing is worse than Callas' during the 73/4 comeback tour.
> 
> N.


And, like Callas, I think it's only a matter of time before audiences start booing Netrebko in some Opera houses. I do wonder how her ego will react to this - I expect she'll retire quite rapidly when that happens.


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

Aerobat said:


> And, like Callas, I think it's only a matter of time before audiences start booing Netrebko in some Opera houses. I do wonder how her ego will react to this - I expect she'll retire quite rapidly when that happens.


It depends what she takes on next. If she continues down the path of singing more of the heavier rep, then I can't see it getting any better.

N.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

The Conte said:


> It depends what she takes on next. If she continues down the path of singing more of the heavier rep, then I can't see it getting any better.
> 
> N.


She should take some time out, rethink her career choices (did someone say she was considering Isolde?!), and work on her voice. She'll never be quite what she once was, though.


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## Aerobat (Dec 31, 2018)

Woodduck said:


> She should take some time out, rethink her career choices (did someone say she was considering Isolde?!), and work on her voice. She'll never be quite what she once was, though.


I've also heard rumours of Isolde. I won't be going to that, or listening to any recordings. The thought fills me with dread.


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## Bonetan (Dec 22, 2016)

Woodduck said:


> She should take some time out, rethink her career choices (did someone say she was considering Isolde?!), and work on her voice. She'll never be quite what she once was, though.


Not to turn this into a Netrebko bashing thread, but she seems somewhat clueless (for a singer of her stature) in regards to technique:

*Do you think the technique of opera singing has changed over the past 100-150 years?
*
"To be honest, I have no idea what the opera technique was like 150 years ago. Listening to old recordings, it is very difficult to understand how the singers of those distant eras actually sang. I cannot say that I am a big fan of the "old" sound production, but I repeat: it's hard for me to judge, because, I think, the recording technique was completely different then. And the strong vibrato in the voices is most likely caused by the peculiarity of sound recording devices. The only thing that I can definitely note is that then they sang very collected, close, the words were clear and understandable..."

She goes on to say that she's not familiar with the work of Ponselle. A soprano not familiar with Ponselle??? 

https://www.vocidellopera.com/single-post/anna-netrebko

She also says in the article that she's done with Wagner after Elsa, but apparently something changed her mind in the 2-3 years since...


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## BachIsBest (Feb 17, 2018)

Bonetan said:


> And the strong vibrato in the voices is most likely caused by the peculiarity of sound recording devices.


Well, that's one way to make yourself feel better about your singing. Next thing you know the composers will be telling us they all could compose like Mozart and it was just all about that old fashioned ink he used that you can't buy anymore. Oh well.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Bonetan said:


> Not to turn this into a Netrebko bashing thread, but she seems somewhat clueless (for a singer of her stature) in regards to technique:
> 
> *Do you think the technique of opera singing has changed over the past 100-150 years?
> *
> ...


If that quote's anything to go by, she sounds a bit clueless full stop. I've read other interviews and it's not the first time I've thought so.

By the way do you read Russian, Bonetan? The link took me to an interview in Russian.


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## Dimace (Oct 19, 2018)

I gave my vote to Renata only because I knew her personally and she is my mother's beloved Soprano. VERY difficult to chose between these GREAT sopranos. Both performances are TOP. I would like to have also the ''draw'' option to these beautiful and useful mini games.


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## Bonetan (Dec 22, 2016)

Tsaraslondon said:


> If that quote's anything to go by, she sounds a bit clueless full stop. I've read other interviews and it's not the first time I've thought so.
> 
> By the way do you read Russian, Bonetan? The link took me to an interview in Russian.


I do not! I had it translated.


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## vivalagentenuova (Jun 11, 2019)

I used Google translate and read on a little. She actually gives a pretty good answer a little further down, saying some things that a lot of here would probably agree with:


> *When you learn the parts, do you start from some recordings and interesting moments heard from other vocalists? Or do you prefer to proceed only from your own vision of the role?*
> 
> The question is very difficult. Naturally, I listen to different interpretations, but I always prefer the classical performance - the canonical recordings of Tebaldi, Callas. These singers had real vocal technique and musicality, and they worked with great conductors who really knew how to play music correctly. Now, unfortunately, this is being lost.
> 
> But I would like to say about recordings ... Recordings are a very controversial phenomenon. The same brilliant Maria Callas, whom I love very, very much, was a cunning woman. It's one thing to listen to her recordings in the studio, where she sings and hums - beautiful, great ... But this has nothing to do with her "live" work on stage in the play. Listening to studio recordings is great, but ... For us singers who really want to learn how to sing, it's important to listen to live performances. This is what I do. I compare different versions, I try to understand what is there, how, what nuances, I see where the difficulties are, where the problems are, what needs to be worked on the most. Returning to Callas, I will say that, of course, I love her "live" performances of an earlier period. The fact that she subsequently lost weight so dramatically, in my opinion, also affected her voice. I compare her recordings from 1949, 1950, 1952 with her later performances and I hear the difference. That loud "trumpet" that sounded on the entire range, the way she inexpressibly generously gave her voice in the recordings of "Aida" or "Troubadour" from Mexico - this, of course, is incomparable. But undoubtedly the recordings made in the studio are also amazing, and there is a lot to learn there too. And just for the ear, it's great.


I find it interesting that the sopranos she mentions are either spinto/dramatic sopranos or a lyric soprano (Freni) who, like Netrebko damaged her voice by artificially darkening it to try to sing more dramatic roles.


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## vivalagentenuova (Jun 11, 2019)

Ponselle was running a small lead for a while, but Tebaldi has closed the gap. I voted for Ponselle because I thought her vocal control was better, and she made more that was interesting out of the phrases she got to sing. That first note in particular kind of summed up the feeling of the whole aria in a way that was really special. That must be exactly what Verdi wanted. That highlights what Woodduck so beautifully said on the other thread about the way that technique, musicality, and emotional expressiveness interact. In my view, Ponselle had a superior technique that allowed her to impart those other qualities in greater measure. Still, both are great and I can see why it's so close.


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## Saxman (Jun 11, 2019)

Both excellent. The Tebaldi, I thought, was a bit more flowy and I liked the tender moments more. Ponselle was more declamatory at times and I think that is a hair less successful.


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## Bogdan (Sep 12, 2014)

This is not a fair comparison; the recording quality of the Ponselle is quite constricted (acoustic recording?) compared to the modern sound of the Tebaldi. Having said that, I voted for Tebaldi for the warmth and the passion.


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