# SOPRANO TOURNAMENT: (Round 1, Match 3): Boninsegna vs Netrebko



## Bonetan (Dec 22, 2016)

Celestina Boninsegna, Italy, 1877-1947






Anna Netrebko, Russia, 1971-






Who's singing did you prefer and why?


----------



## BachIsBest (Feb 17, 2018)

I didn't really like Boninsegna. I thought her vibrato, especially on the high notes, might have been a little too quick, her voice had a somewhat off-putting quality to me that I can't place my finger on (might just be the sound quality), and, to top it off, I thought the tempo was a tad on the slow side.

Netrebko, on the other hand, makes me want to slowly carve my ears out with a butterknife, bury said ears, and dance on the ear-grave singing Halleluyah praise the Lord and, who knows, my drunken-sailor-style-singing might not even be that much worse than the stuff in the video.

Luckily, I listened to Boninsegna first when my ears were still un-butterknifed-and-buried and, as such, was able to happily not vote for Netrebko.


----------



## Aerobat (Dec 31, 2018)

Hmmm. No vote. I didn't take to Boninsegna at all. But Netrebko really shouldn't be singing this role. It's simply not something she should have attempted at any point in her career.


----------



## MAS (Apr 15, 2015)

Not Netrebko. Bonisegna by default, though the recording process does her no favors.

BTW, what is Leonora doing in a schoolroom?


----------



## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Bonisegna by a mile. The fast vibrato won't be to everyone's taste (though it's preferable to the slow beat that Netrebko has developed) but she has an impressive chest voice. I certainly wouldn't prefer her to Ponselle, but she shows up Netrebko's deficiencies, the occluded, atrificially darkened tone, the slow beat in the voice. It really sounds like a voice in trouble. She has no business singing this music anyway.

So, yes a vote for Bonisegna.


----------



## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Boninsegna is remarkable. What nuance, what style, what creative phrasing and shading, what a chest voice, what clean, pure tone... It's a 1911 recording, folks. Don't be hasty in judging the timbre of her voice. Recordings then were unkind to sopranos. Singing like this is so far beyond anything we can hear today, it makes you wonder whether humans are the same species. So what _can_ we hear today? Shall we turn to Exhibit B?

Nah. What's the point?


----------



## silentio (Nov 10, 2014)

I vote for Netrebko... to shut up. Seriously, they call her the leading soprano of our day?


----------



## Bonetan (Dec 22, 2016)

silentio said:


> *I vote for Netrebko... to shut up*. Seriously, they call her the leading soprano of our day?


:lol::lol::lol: you got me with this one :lol:


----------



## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

Well I don't know about the other posters yet but for me this was an easy one. Just give me that gorgeous note once again at 4:30 from Netrebko and I am a goner. That was simply exquisite. 
I know she has her distractors but obviously I am not one of them -- especially earlier on. She's now almost a mezzo.
Frankly, from the very beginning Boninsegna's voice held no appeal for me. I just didn't like that recording at all.
I thought Her Nebs nailed this one!


----------



## Aerobat (Dec 31, 2018)

silentio said:


> I vote for Netrebko... to shut up. Seriously, they call her the leading soprano of our day?


No, she calls herself the leading soprano of our day. Earlier in her career, and in the right role, she was OK. Not as good as she thinks she is, but OK. Early in her career though she was up against Gheorghiu who is / was so far ahead of her that Nebs couldn't really compete. Now she's getting older (what am I saying, she's the same age as me!), her voice is deteriorating fast. Combine that with her attempting roles that she really isn't suited for, and the result isn't pretty. There's something distinctly 'off' about her vibrato in this particular recording.

Having said this, I thoroughly enjoyed her Met Opera "Lucia". Of course, that was 11 years ago before her voice started to deteriorate.


----------



## Bonetan (Dec 22, 2016)

Boninsegna is sensational! Her voice is so clean and effortless with nothing whatsoever hindering her sound. This woman had a technique to die for, and OMG that monster chest voice! Netrebko's singing seems effortful and constricted by comparison. My first reaction was that this is the most lopsided matchup in the tournaments so far. Boninsegna makes Netrebko sound inadequate in this aria. Netrebko's wobbling at 2:50 made me cover my ears


----------



## Azol (Jan 25, 2015)

Bonetan said:


> Netrebko's wobbling at 2:50 made me cover my ears


You made it to 2:50, I gave up at 1:29 or my ears would have started to bleed.



Tsaraslondon said:


> ...Netrebko's deficiencies, the occluded, atrificially darkened tone, the slow beat in the voice


And she misses like every other note.

Boninsegna is... interesting, not totally convincing but she could sing! Somewhat uncharacteristic performance, but, boy, it's leagues away from the N. disaster... Vote is in.


----------



## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

silentio said:


> I vote for Netrebko... to shut up. Seriously, they call her the leading soprano of our day?


In ignorance I ask this, was she ever good as a lyric coloratura when she was fresh out of the gate? I got the impression she was a fine singer in the early days. I never bothered with her as I knew Joan would sing rings around her.


----------



## vivalagentenuova (Jun 11, 2019)

Boninsegna's top notes in particular are not flattered by the recording technology, as was true for many sopranos of the period. They sound a bit thin. Her middle and lower range are clearly heard to be excellent though. She has ruined the phrase "in mezzo a tanto a tanto duol" for me for every other soprano, because her chest voice is gigantic and she really uses it for a hugely expressive reading of that line. She colors the text, sings with a good sense of line, and uses her prominent break to wonderful effect throughout. Dynamics and shading make the piece exciting and interesting. She doesn't have the final degree of coordination which the very greatest had, but it's still a hugely impressive and exciting voice and she does great things with it.

I don't have to say what I think is wrong with Netrebko's version, since many have done that already. I do think it's a fair comparison as she has been putting herself in these sorts of roles and been getting paid to do them. She is hailed in these roles, so the fact that she is thought to succeed in them is indicative of the current level of singing. Her earlier, more lyric years were better, though still not at all my cup of tea.


----------



## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Seattleoperafan said:


> In ignorance I ask this, was she ever good as a lyric coloratura when she was fresh out of the gate? I got the impression she was a fine singer in the early days. I never bothered with her as I knew Joan would sing rings around her.


She began as a very good lyric soprano with a distinctive timbre. She was never a favorite of mine, but I particularly liked her in Russian music.


----------



## Parsifal98 (Apr 29, 2020)

nina foresti said:


> Well I don't know about the other posters yet but for me this was an easy one. Just give me that gorgeous note once again at 4:30 from Netrebko and I am a goner. That was simply exquisite.
> I know she has her distractors but obviously I am not one of them -- especially earlier on. She's now almost a mezzo.
> Frankly, from the very beginning Boninsegna's voice held no appeal for me. I just didn't like that recording at all.
> I thought Her Nebs nailed this one!


Is this satire?


----------



## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Boninsegna's recording bears repeated listening. I find it absorbing from its very first beautifully shaded phrase, and I can't say I've heard another quite like it. 

Performances by singers trained in the 19th century are often extraordinarily creative in their nuances of rhythm, dynamics, phrasing, and even modest embellishment of the vocal line. Clearly such individuality was highly valued. I've speculated on why modern singers don't pay more attention to this rich stylistic heritage; I recall Conrad Osborne complaining, back in (I think) 1968, about the literalness and sameness of recent baritones. Our feeling for the vocal traditions of Italian opera has faded despite the legacy of recordings to show us how it can be done, and I'm with Osborne in thinking that part of the problem is that singers simply wouldn't have the technical prowess to give a performance as interesting as Boninsegna's if they wanted to. This is obvious in the case of Netrebko, whose presentation of the music is completely generic and unmemorable, occupied as she is with just getting the notes out without major mishaps (while not avoiding minor ones). 

It's been remarked that recent singers lack individuality, and I'd suggest that this is at least as much a technical problem as one of native endowment or musical intelligence. Technical development affects vocal timbre and limits what a singer can do musically. Voice, technique and musicality are interdependent in determining what a singer does and what we hear, and it can take some experience in listening to singing to be able to analyze how these factors play into our pleasure or displeasure. As we gain such experience we're apt to find our likes and dislikes changing.


----------



## Bonetan (Dec 22, 2016)

I was compelled to learn more about the singer in possession of this prodigious voice and found these interesting tidbits from the Met archives:

In her Met debut on December 21, 1906 she sang the title role of Aida opposite Caruso, Louise Kirkby-Lunn, and Riccardo Stracciari. The New York American praised her "fresh, supple, warm voice" but was alarmed by "the terrors of her make-up. She wore two mops of black wool, and her arms were apparently covered with dark cotton stockings. She drew the color line at her neck being almost white above. That she triumphed over these things is a tribute to her art." Most of her reviews were good but not outstanding. However, New York was used to Eames as Aida, proud and elegant of costume, with her own secret blend of flesh-colored make-up.

Years later, Boninsegna seemed to blame Eames for her lack of success. When the future critic Max de Schauensee visited her in 1937, almost her first words were "La Eames - è morta?" and she became reflective upon hearing she was still alive. On another visit to Italy, de Schauensee interviewed the baritone Stracciari. He declared, "Only one woman sang the music of Aida the way I thought it should be sung, and that was la Boninsegna. Her voice was so big and beautiful, all silver and velvet. But she had no charm or elegance of person....the public would not forgive her, despite a voice that was unique in this role. Besides, the Metropolitan had Emma Eames - una bellissima donna!"


----------



## MAS (Apr 15, 2015)

She was very good and very pretty. She had loads of personality and charm. She is now part of what has become the "cult of personality," where it doesn't matter how she sings. _Nebs_ or _Trebs_ is praised even on Parterre Box, which used eat singers like her for breakfast. Below is the review of the latest event from the Met/Vienna recital.

https://parterre.com/2021/02/07/the-expansive-and-the-ostentatious/

She sang very well in her youth for a number of years.


----------



## vivalagentenuova (Jun 11, 2019)

Bonetan said:


> In her Met debut on December 21, 1906 she sang the title role of Aida opposite Caruso, Louise Kirkby-Lunn, and Riccardo Stracciari


----------



## Bonetan (Dec 22, 2016)

vivalagentenuova said:


>


And Plancon sang Ramfis! Can you imagine...


----------



## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

nina foresti said:


> Well I don't know about the other posters yet but for me this was an easy one. Just give me that gorgeous note once again at 4:30 from Netrebko and I am a goner. That was simply exquisite.
> I know she has her distractors but obviously I am not one of them -- especially earlier on. _She's now almost a mezzo._
> Frankly, from the very beginning Boninsegna's voice held no appeal for me. I just didn't like that recording at all.
> I thought Her Nebs nailed this one!


...I think it's safe to say we definitely have some different notions of what "almost a mezzo" sounds like. to me, "almost a mezzo" is Rosa Ponselle, Ghena Dimitrova, late Maria Callas. It's not enough to be dark, it must also be a free, natural sound with effortless weight behind it. with Trebz we hear a more labored sound with a depressed Valsalva technique.

All the same, kudos for having the guts to take the clearly less popular position. Most fans of Netrebko have run into at least a few people who can be pretty nasty in response.


----------



## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

Woodduck said:


> Boninsegna's recording bears repeated listening. I find it absorbing from its very first beautifully shaded phrase, and I can't say I've heard another quite like it.
> 
> Performances by singers trained in the 19th century are often extraordinarily creative in their nuances of rhythm, dynamics, phrasing, and even modest embellishment of the vocal line. Clearly such individuality was highly valued. I've speculated on why modern singers don't pay more attention to this rich stylistic heritage; I recall Conrad Osborne complaining, back in (I think) 1968, about the literalness and sameness of recent baritones. Our feeling for the vocal traditions of Italian opera has faded despite the legacy of recordings to show us how it can be done, and I'm with Osborne in thinking that part of the problem is that singers simply wouldn't have the technical prowess to give a performance as interesting as Boninsegna's if they wanted to. This is obvious in the case of Netrebko, whose presentation of the music is completely generic and unmemorable, occupied as she is with just getting the notes out without major mishaps (while not avoiding minor ones).
> 
> It's been remarked that recent singers lack individuality, and I'd suggest that this is at least as much a technical problem as one of native endowment or musical intelligence. Technical development affects vocal timbre and limits what a singer can do musically. Voice, technique and musicality are interdependent in determining what a singer does and what we hear, and it can take some experience in listening to singing to be able to analyze how these factors play into our pleasure or displeasure. As we gain such experience we're apt to find our likes and dislikes changing.


^this is pretty much a nicer and more eloquent explanation of an opinion that has been in the back of my mind for the last few years.


----------



## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

BalalaikaBoy said:


> ^this is pretty much a nicer and more eloquent explanation of an opinion that has been in the back of my mind for the last few years.


Well now it's in the front. You're welcome. :tiphat:


----------



## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Bonetan said:


> In her Met debut on December 21, 1906 [Boninsegna] sang the title role of Aida opposite Caruso, Louise Kirkby-Lunn, and Riccardo Stracciari. And Plancon sang Ramfis! Can you imagine...


Atlantis has sunk irretrievably beneath the murky waters of modernity.


----------



## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

MAS said:


> She was very good and very pretty. She had loads of personality and charm. She is now part of what has become the "cult of personality," where it doesn't matter how she sings. _Nebs_ or _Trebs_ is praised even on Parterre Box, which used eat singers like her for breakfast. Below is the review of the latest event from the Met/Vienna recital.
> 
> https://parterre.com/2021/02/07/the-expansive-and-the-ostentatious/
> 
> She sang very well in her youth for a number of years.


The review begins with "Proudly and vividly on display was Anna Netrebko's unique and glamorous ability to wear the music like a parade of couture gowns-some more sparkly than others, some a more flattering fit, but all thoughtfully chosen and laced into with care." Really makes you wish you were there, doesn't it?

I sang quite a variety of music in my younger years, and never once considered wearing any of it.


----------



## MAS (Apr 15, 2015)

Woodduck said:


> The review begins with "Proudly and vividly on display was Anna Netrebko's unique and glamorous ability to wear the music like a parade of couture gowns-some more sparkly than others, some a more flattering fit, but all thoughtfully chosen and laced into with care." Really makes you wish you were there, doesn't it?
> 
> I sang quite a variety of music in my younger years, and never once considered wearing any of it.


I suppose the singing in this recital was not the main interest for the Parterre reviewer. I watched some of it on YouTube. Miss Netrebko is not content to just sing, but moves around the stage, throwing out her arms and dancing around, possibly to distract from what she is doing or not doing with the voice. Since I did not see or hear the whole recital, I can't say whether she sang the rest of it any better than the pieces I witnessed. She certainly could do better.


----------



## Aerobat (Dec 31, 2018)

Woodduck said:


> It's been remarked that recent singers lack individuality, and I'd suggest that this is at least as much a technical problem as one of native endowment or musical intelligence. Technical development affects vocal timbre and limits what a singer can do musically. Voice, technique and musicality are interdependent in determining what a singer does and what we hear, and it can take some experience in listening to singing to be able to analyze how these factors play into our pleasure or displeasure. As we gain such experience we're apt to find our likes and dislikes changing.


There are some more recent singers who have distinct individuality. I'd start by naming Bartoli, Garanca, Petibon, and Florez. All instantly identifiable on the first note of anything that they sing. Personally I like all of them for very different reasons. They are however, individuals who don't fit a standard 'mould'. I think a large percentage of audiences (and maybe directors???) expect, and want, a 'standard' soprano / mezzo / tenor etc., and this is what is being produced.


----------



## BachIsBest (Feb 17, 2018)

Seattleoperafan said:


> In ignorance I ask this, was she ever good as a lyric coloratura when she was fresh out of the gate? I got the impression she was a fine singer in the early days. I never bothered with her as I knew Joan would sing rings around her.


She sounds fine here, to me at least,






She was also extraordinarily beautiful, which certainly helps some roles in live or filmed performances.


----------



## Andante Cantabile (Feb 26, 2020)

Just for info, Ward Marston is planning to release a complete Celestina Boninsegna edition in future:

https://www.marstonrecords.com/pages/future

'Celestina Boninsegna (1877-1947) was one of the most prolifically-recorded sopranos of the early twentieth century. Yet it was not her stage career which convinced recording executives to produce her records, but her "phonogenic" voice that created the demand. Boninsegna's recordings are stunning, making her one of the most collectible sopranos of her time. She managed to overcome the limitations of the acoustic recording studio and leave us records that have some of the presence of live recordings from the stage. According to Fred Gaisberg, the impresario for the Gramophone Company, Boninsegna's "voice was so smooth and velvety and of such even registers that recording was no effort; the results obtained were always thoroughly musical and therefore gave intense pleasure. Those harsh places expected in any record by a dramatic soprano were conspicuous by their absence."

Over the past fifty years there have been no comprehensive LP or CD reissues of Boninsegna's records. We now pay homage to Boninsegna by reissuing all of her recordings in this five-CD set, which will include several extremely rare photos, complete discographic information, and an informative essay by Michael Aspinall on her career and recordings.'


----------



## Aerobat (Dec 31, 2018)

Augastine said:


> Just for info, Ward Marston is planning to release a complete Celestina Boninsegna edition in future:
> 
> https://www.marstonrecords.com/pages/future
> 
> ...


I'm hopeful that some level of re-mastering may be possible to remove the worst elements of recordings from that era. That would make them something really good. Much as recent Netrebko is hard to listen to, a recording with a wobbly orchestra and strange hisses and wobbles can be equally difficult to enjoy.


----------



## MAS (Apr 15, 2015)

Augastine said:


> Just for info, Ward Marston is planning to release a complete Celestina Boninsegna edition in future:
> 
> https://www.marstonrecords.com/pages/future
> 
> ...


I'm glad to see Marston Records is back on the job. Though not necessarily a Boninsegna fan, I am glad her recordings are available and that there is still a market for such issues.


----------



## Andante Cantabile (Feb 26, 2020)

MAS said:


> I'm glad to see Marston Records is back on the job.


Marston has been operating and there have been some wonderful releases in recent years, such as the Complete Chaliapin edition, Lotte Lehmann's 1910s-1930s acoustic and electrical recordings, all of pianist Josef Lhevinne's extant recordings, etc. It's just that it takes time for a release to come out, but the consistently high quality of remastering, accompanying materials, CD cover art design and packaging and CD pressing make all the wait worthwhile.


----------



## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

Augastine said:


> Marston has been operating and there have been some wonderful releases in recent years, such as the Complete Chaliapin edition, Lotte Lehmann's 1910s-1930s acoustic and electrical recordings, all of pianist Josef Lhevinne's extant recordings, etc. It's just that it takes time for a release to come out, but the consistently high quality of remastering, accompanying materials, CD cover art design and packaging and CD pressing make all the wait worthwhile.


Absolutely! There are a couple of labels producing historic opera recordings and whilst we have to wait quite a bit of time for releases, that shows that they take the time, trouble and care to produce very good products. I have the complete Bastianini, Ponselle Radio Recordings and Complete Patti and Maurel from Marston. All superb!

N.


----------



## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

Boninsegna by a wide margin; it's obvious from the first notes.


----------



## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

On the strength of Woodduck's raving about Boninsegna's performance I finally bit the bullet and took this contest. Boy am I glad I did. Other than Dimash Kudaibergen, Boninsegna is my greatest vocal discovery of the last decade. What a totally unique and beautiful voice with one of the most astonishing yet blended chest registers I have ever heard. I must check out more of her stuff. Netrebko ....I lasted 45 seconds and really wanted to end it at 30 seconds. Thanks Woodduck.


----------



## adriesba (Dec 30, 2019)

I had already seen the second video and did not want to see it again, but for sake of completeness I played it. Some might point to the recording quality or this or that in this comparison, but sorry I just don't like the way Netrebko contorts her voice making that hollow sound. I don't want to say too much since I've never heard her in person, but to me she sounds like a small voice attempting to sound big. I'm voting for Boninsegna as her performance was quite spectacular.


----------



## Aerobat (Dec 31, 2018)

adriesba said:


> I had already seen the second video and did not want to see it again, but for sake of completeness I played it. Some might point to the recording quality or this or that in this comparison, but sorry I just don't like the way Netrebko contorts her voice making that hollow sound. I don't want to say too much since I've never heard her in person, but to me she sounds like a small voice attempting to sound big. I'm voting for Boninsegna as her performance was quite spectacular.


I'm quite sure she isn't a small voice, based on the roles she's performed. Unfortunately she's trying to take on roles that just don't suit her instrument. In this recording she simply sounds 'forced', which is no surprise really - she's forcing her voice to do something that isn't natural.

It's a pity there's so much hype around Netrebko. There are other sopranos today who are far better, yet it's Netrebko who's still pulling in the crowds for now. Many more performances like that one, and I suspect that her audience will start to diminish.


----------



## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

BalalaikaBoy said:


> ...I think it's safe to say we definitely have some different notions of what "almost a mezzo" sounds like. to me, "almost a mezzo" is Rosa Ponselle, Ghena Dimitrova, late Maria Callas. It's not enough to be dark, it must also be a free, natural sound with effortless weight behind it. with Trebz we hear a more labored sound with a depressed Valsalva technique.
> 
> All the same, kudos for having the guts to take the clearly less popular position. Most fans of Netrebko have run into at least a few people who can be pretty nasty in response.


while we're here, here's a few examples of some "almost mezzos". they don't need to sing dark and powerful. their voices ARE dark and powerful (most dramatic soprani start off as mezzos, and they would almost certainly be trained as such today in a climate that either does not recognize or is afraid of big voices).
















let's compare that to a clip of Ms. Netrebko where she actually sounds a bit more comfortable. had she stuck with this kind of repertoire, I believe her voice would be in much better condition. 





I know I know, "voices change with age". okay, here's a clip of her from like 7-8 years ago. still sounds absolutely nothing like the first three singers I listed. note that in both of these clips, her high notes are not just nice, they are the easiest part of her range (the excitement of bigger, darker voices comes from the fact that it takes a lot more energy and intensity to get up there).


----------



## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

BachIsBest said:


> She sounds fine here, to me at least,
> 
> 
> 
> ...


She is very good here and gorgeous!!!!!!


----------

