# "Music is not for everybody." - Krzysztof Penderecki



## PresenTense (May 7, 2016)

What do you think about this?


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

He seems to be saying that _his _music, being so high-class and all, is not for everybody. No doubt history will prove him correct.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Certainly not his music, so far he's right.


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## CypressWillow (Apr 2, 2013)

It's difficult to know how to respond. Certainly, _his_ "music is not for everybody." No argument there.

Is he talking about Classical music in general? If he says that not everybody listens to CM, he's right. But that doesn't necessarily mean it's not _for_ more people than currently listen to it: many, many people have simply not been exposed to it. If your upbringing was in a home where CM is not ever heard, the odds are against you coming to it later in life, though it can happen.

Is he simply being a snob? Possible. I don't know enough about him as a person to have an opinion.

Many hearing-impaired and Deaf people can experience music, including Classical, through attentiveness to the vibrations, and/or through an interpreter, and be moved and nourished by the experience.

I guess if he were saying "Art is not for everybody," or "Literature is not for everybody" or even "Fine dining is not for everybody" we'd have less of a problem in assessing the weight we want to give his statement.


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## David OByrne (Dec 1, 2016)

Nothing is for everybody, especially Mozart, so it's no surprise he would say this. Painting isn't for everybody, so why should music? same as how sport isn't for everybody. How can someone seriously say that [thing] is for everybody? that is a lie


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

KenOC said:


> He seems to be saying that _his _music, being so high-class and all, is not for everybody. No doubt history will prove him correct.


Very defensive knee jerk reaction.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

PresenTense said:


> What do you think about this?


As it is, I think this is a superficial thought, A worthless soundbite. Western philosophy is about truth, and one reason "not everyone can do it" is that the conceptual apparatus that you need to say the truth may be very complicated. I don't know that it's quite the same for music.


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## Sloe (May 9, 2014)

KenOC said:


> He seems to be saying that _his _music, being so high-class and all, is not for everybody. No doubt history will prove him correct.


Penderecki is one of the most popular living composers we have. His music is not for everyone but it is for many.


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## tdc (Jan 17, 2011)

Yes, there is not really much to discuss about that quote in my opinion...he is just pointing out a fairly obvious and non controversial truth.

He means it in a certain way as in some activities require more advanced thought and effort, therefore they are not going to be something everyone wants to do or can do, so it follows that the value of these activities should not be judged on popularity or wide spread appeal. But taken in a broader context what he is saying still applies to every style of music and every art form (in other words there are no styles of music or art that are enjoyed by everybody).


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## Guest (Oct 26, 2017)

Checking out the context/source for the quote might be useful...

http://culture.pl/en/article/music-is-not-for-everyone-an-interview-with-krzysztof-penderecki

It was an answer to the question, "*Do you think music can shape culture? Or is it maybe just decorative art?"*


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## arpeggio (Oct 4, 2012)

One. I think we have had a fruitless discussion about this quote before.

Two. It is a bit unfair to bring up one of his early aleatoric works. Since the 1970's his works are tonal and very neoromantic.

Check out his _Seventh Symphony 'Seven Gates of Jerusalem'_:






Penderecki went the opposite direction than Lutoslawski.

Of course I have given up trying to understand most of the classical music experts around here. I would not be surprised that many of our them would consider him a one hit wonder with his _Threnody to the Victims of Hiroshima_. He may be a one hit wonder in Macon, Goergia.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Penderecki says, "Music is not for everybody." But of course it is. Very few people don't like music of one sort or the other. By comparing listening to music with reading books on philosophy, he seems to be limiting his remarks to a certain type of listener, a not-uncommon view in classical music and one that does the music little good.


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## tdc (Jan 17, 2011)

KenOC said:


> Penderecki says, "Music is not for everybody." But of course it is. Very few people don't like music of one sort or the other. By comparing listening to music with reading books on philosophy, he seems to be limiting his remarks to a certain type of listener, a not-uncommon view in classical music and one that does the music little good.


I know people that don't care about music at all, any style, it is just not something that interests them.


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## Larkenfield (Jun 5, 2017)

_Music_ is for everybody-most people would probably go insane without its psychological relief-but classical music and Penderecky is not. One could go through an entire lifetime without hearing either and do just fine. -Lark


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## Guest (Oct 26, 2017)

KenOC said:


> Penderecki says, "Music is not for everybody." But of course it is. Very few people don't like music of one sort or the other. By comparing listening to music with reading books on philosophy, he seems to be limiting his remarks to a certain type of listener, a not-uncommon view in classical music and one that does the music little good.


Given the question he was asked - and the vagaries of translation - I wonder whether he simply meant that the reach of CM was never going to shape culture in the way that pop can.


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## Lisztian (Oct 10, 2011)

I know this is sorta not relevant, but I know for a fact that music in general is not for everybody as I have a brother who simply cannot stand music and gets very irritable when it is played around him.


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## Lisztian (Oct 10, 2011)

Mandryka said:


> As it is, I think this is a superficial thought, A worthless soundbite. Western philosophy is about truth, and one reason "not everyone can do it" is that the conceptual apparatus that you need to say the truth may be very complicated. I don't know that it's quite the same for music.


He didn't say "not everyone can do it," he said "not everyone has to do it."


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Lisztian said:


> He didn't say "not everyone can do it," he said "not everyone has to do it."


You're right, I was wrong.


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## Ingélou (Feb 10, 2013)

(Thought better of proffering my opinion...)


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## chill782002 (Jan 12, 2017)

tdc said:


> I know people that don't care about music at all, any style, it is just not something that interests them.


Very true. Baffles me but there you go. Perhaps they might be tone deaf? It's fine if someone likes a style of music that I wouldn't go anywhere near but I'm very puzzled if they seem to have no interest in music of any kind.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Load of rubbish by a holier than thou individual. Listening to Classical music is not like reading philosophy else I wouldn't do it. Music is to be enjoyed, a feeling I do not have when listening to the music of the gentleman quoted. If he says, 'My musc is not for everyone,' I would say, Amen! Thank goodness!


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## dgee (Sep 26, 2013)

This one's a real Rorschach test! Is Penderecki a baddy modernist who thinks he's better than everybody? Or is he just a prodigously talented individual who has devoted his life to his art making a reasonably straight forward observation about audiences? What you think about the OP quote says more about you than it does about an out of context line that's really more about pop music than anything else


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## Triplets (Sep 4, 2014)

I know many intelligent people who not only don’t like CM, they don’t like any music. For me this is unfathomable, but it’s nice to know that we aren’t all digital copies of each other


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## Larkenfield (Jun 5, 2017)

I suppose those reputed to dislike music or apparently have no need for it, at least the music of friends and family, which is understandable, must be avoiding it in TV shows and movies as well. I'm not convinced there's no appreciation at all, no need for it, even if not on a conscious level. It's sometimes impossible to avoid and they'd be compelled to leave the room. So I would imagine there are times when they are hearing it, getting something out of it, or accepting it in their surroundings, even if they're not consciously seeking it out. It has the ability to communicate something nonverbally rather than incessantly through words. A lack of interest doesn't necessarily signify an active dislike in what I would consider to be a relatively normal human being, though I suppose it's possible it exists.


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## Totenfeier (Mar 11, 2016)

Ingélou said:


> (Thought better of proffering my opinion...)


"Those who speak do not know; those who know do not speak." -attr. Lao Tzu

Ah - then whence cometh discussion fora? I sense a new thread coming on (or, mayhap, a whole new _type_ of thread...tonal:atonal:rational:irrational...hm...)


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## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

I half agree with Penderecki. Part I agree with is Some of his music and others needs a lot of attention and some previous initiation to grasp. 

Part I don’t agree with is some is supposed to work and hit immediately such as Debussy and impressionists ( again colour and rhythms). And also that not all people like popular music, There is no music I like in the past 20 years.


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## Agamemnon (May 1, 2017)

DavidA said:


> Load of rubbish by a holier than thou individual. Listening to Classical music is not like reading philosophy else I wouldn't do it. Music is to be enjoyed, a feeling I do not have when listening to the music of the gentleman quoted. If he says, 'My musc is not for everyone,' I would say, Amen! Thank goodness!


For me listening to music and reading philosophy is comparable because they are both a way of moving into a higher realm where beauty and truth dwell (and away from the every day life and it's superficial entertainments). And I enjoy philosophy at least as much as I enjoy music: I think philosophy and art are both religions for the non-believer and both can bring me in a state of ecstacy.

BTW, I think Penderecki was talking about music as art. Art is not for everyone. So basically he says the same thing as Schönberg when he said "If it is art, it is not for all, and if it is for all, it is not art." (which quote has also been a subject of a thread not long ago). In the broader sense of music which includes music as entertainment/pop, music is for everyone as it is hard to imagine someone does not like some kind of music. In that sense music is the most universally loved art form. I think because music is - which is my little philosophy of music - really talking without words: music simply delivers the essence of communication which is connecting, moving together, thus magically blending into one together and mystically transcending your individuality into ecstacy.


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## Botschaft (Aug 4, 2017)

Having listened for a minute or so to that symphony of his I can at least say that his music (for the lack of a better word) isn't for me.


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## Marinera (May 13, 2016)

KenOC said:


> Penderecki says, "Music is not for everybody." But of course it is. Very few people don't like music of one sort or the other. By comparing listening to music with reading books on philosophy, he seems to be limiting his remarks to a certain type of listener, a not-uncommon view in classical music and one that does the music little good.


Well said, I absolutely agree. Also, I know from my own experience and from what I observed that children as young as 3-5-year-olds can be moved and captivated by a classical music work. The audience cannot get broader than that.


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## Lisztian (Oct 10, 2011)

....................


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## Marinera (May 13, 2016)

tdc said:


> I know people that don't care about music at all, any style, it is just not something that interests them.


People who appear to take no interest in music may not be engaged actively in music listening, but I believe they have a few favourite songs or other pieces of music, even if they don't own records and hear them rarely. Relatives on my paternal side are like that my dad and grandmother including, it took me years to find out what music they like, and we are family.


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## Lisztian (Oct 10, 2011)

Marinera said:


> People who appear to take no interest in music may not be engaged actively in music listening, but I believe they have a few favourite songs or other pieces of music, even if they don't own records and hear them rarely. Relatives on my paternal side are like that my dad and grandmother including, it took me years to find out what music they like, and we are family.


My brother finds listening to music to be a negative experience. I've lived with him my whole life and have never once seen him show any enthusiasm for any music, but I have witnessed his complaining about music and his desire to have it turned off hundreds of times. It does nothing for him except sometimes annoy him. He has no favourites except in the sense that some things are less annoying than others. He can usually tolerate music in the games he plays/movies he watches but it's a nullity to him.


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## Strange Magic (Sep 14, 2015)

^^^The two other forums that spring to mind can be characterized as The Land of the Living Dead, and The Land of the Dead Dead. Just my opinion.


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## Triplets (Sep 4, 2014)

Lisztian said:


> Why is it that in every single thread that features a modernist composer a certain vocal minority have to express their extremely negative views on that composer?
> 
> I don't know why I still post here, when the forum many former members left this one for is far more inclusive and lacks that extremely annoying minority (or at least their views are buried under more sensible and knowledgeable rebuttals, which used to happen here to an extent before the aforementioned members left). I guess I see it as being a shame and wish things were different, but I of course don't have the force of personality to change anything...
> 
> I do have the ability to get my posts deleted though.


If you pay attention, you will see that there are several threads in which listeners state they don't like Mozart and wonder why his music is so well regarded. Others have the said the same about Beethoven. It isn't just modernist Composers that come in for disapproval. For some reason, the posters that promote modernist Composers seem to have thinner skins about criticism of their chosen area of interest.
Classical Music is a broad tent. Not everyone under the tent is going to have the same taste and preferences. It is unrealistic to expect that on a forum devoted to Music appreciation that some people are not going to say "I don't like the music of Composer X or Period Y". I wonder what makes the fans of modernist Composers more prone to throwing hissy fits than fans of other periods.


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## isorhythm (Jan 2, 2015)

The general idea is obviously true, in fact trivial. The comparison to philosophy makes no sense. Composers are not necessarily deep thinkers. Not much to talk about here.


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## Marinera (May 13, 2016)

Lisztian said:


> My brother finds listening to music to be a negative experience. I've lived with him my whole life and have never once seen him show any enthusiasm for any music, but I have witnessed his complaining about music and his desire to have it turned off hundreds of times. It does nothing for him except sometimes annoy him. He has no favourites except in the sense that some things are less annoying than others. He can usually tolerate music in the games he plays/movies he watches but it's a nullity to him.


This has to be the strangest bit of information I've learned in a quite a while. It's like finding a completely new species on the planet - someone who is annoyed with all types of music. My jaw has dropped on the desk I'll tell you. Before this, I'd reached the conclusion that some people have one or two old favourites, or stumble accidentally on a new, but it is not something they bother to share or talk about with anyone, they don't think it's a worthwhile subject for a discussion perhaps. Is there no chance at all that your brother is like that? I don't know I'm just sitting right now digesting this bit of news, incredible.


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## Lisztian (Oct 10, 2011)

Marinera said:


> This has to be the strangest bit of information I've learned in a quite a while. It's like finding a completely new species on the planet - someone who is annoyed with all types of music. My jaw has dropped on the desk I'll tell you. Before this, I'd reached the conclusion that some people have one or two old favourites, or stumble accidentally on a new, but it is not something they bother to share or talk about with anyone, they don't think it's a worthwhile subject for a discussion perhaps. Is there no chance at all that your brother is like that? I don't know I'm just sitting right now digesting this bit of news, incredible.


I can assure you that he is not like that. Some people are more sensitive to sound compared to others; some people are unaffected by and/or can't understand the emotional pretensions of music; with some people the music just doesn't seem to reach certain neural pathways that leads to its comprehension as a pleasurable thing: for some people all of these things are true. I don't know I find it hard to understand as well, and it is certainly interesting especially considering I am the exact opposite


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## Marinera (May 13, 2016)

Lisztian said:


> I can assure you that he is not like that. Some people are more sensitive to sound compared to others; some people are unaffected by and/or can't understand the emotional pretensions of music; with some people the music just doesn't seem to reach certain neural pathways that leads to its comprehension as a pleasurable thing: for some people all of these things are true. I don't know I find it hard to understand as well, and it is certainly interesting especially considering I am the exact opposite


Interesting is an understatement, this is on the scale of astonishing. Thank you for your comment, now I think what else I am generalising and taking for granted.


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## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

Didn't Milton Babbitt say something along similar lines with regards to advanced _avant-garde_ music but was judged to be more academically narrow in his remarks? Something like the only people who would end up seeing music like this performed are the scarce few who would be capable of actually understanding it from an academic perspective, which isn't necessarily a bad thing. I think Babbitt (if it was him) alleged that the spirit in which his statement was made was taken out of context resulting in making him sound more exclusionist than he intended.


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## Lisztian (Oct 10, 2011)

Triplets said:


> If you pay attention, you will see that there are several threads in which listeners state they don't like Mozart and wonder why his music is so well regarded. Others have the said the same about Beethoven. It isn't just modernist Composers that come in for disapproval. For some reason, the posters that promote modernist Composers seem to have thinner skins about criticism of their chosen area of interest.
> Classical Music is a broad tent. Not everyone under the tent is going to have the same taste and preferences. It is unrealistic to expect that on a forum devoted to Music appreciation that some people are not going to say "I don't like the music of Composer X or Period Y". I wonder what makes the fans of modernist Composers more prone to throwing hissy fits than fans of other periods.


Modernism is not even my area of interest at this point, and I do pay attention as I was a part of those threads. I have just noticed that these composers are bashed far more and I guess fans of this music don't have the support of the majority backing them up. I really don't believe it's as even as you think it is, and I think many would agree with me. I don't think it's a matter of 'thinner skin,' but rather a gradual wearing down without as much backup. I'm annoyed that these people continue to do it despite the negative effects on valuable members their insistence on negativity has obviously caused. It's just so unnecessary.


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## Nereffid (Feb 6, 2013)

_"For music to exist there must be an appropriate audience". _Yes.

_"A concert of good contemporary music in a big city like Warsaw is always sold-out"._ Define "good", please! And what size is the venue? But yeah, OK, I agree with the general point.

_"However, you cannot compare it with popular music, which gets to almost everybody"._ True. A truism, even: you can't compare something very popular with something much less popular.

_"Listening to classical music is like reading philosophy books, not everyone has to do it"._ Hmm, I'm a little suspicious of why he went for philosophy in particular. How about "Listening to classical music is like reading detective fiction" or "Listening to classical music is like knitting", or whatever... Obviously going for some perceived intellectual higher ground, I suppose. Not buying it, sorry. But the "not everyone has to do it", well, sure, who'd argue with that?

_"Music is not for everybody"._ Ohhhh, I see what you did there, sneaky Krzysztof! Suddenly "classical music" has been turned into "music". But yeah. _Classical_ music is not for everybody. Neither is _popular_ music, come to think of it.

I'm not sure if this one was really worth turning into an inspirational quote...


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## Animal the Drummer (Nov 14, 2015)

Joining a thread simply to say "I don't like the music of [whoever]", often without even an attempt to say why not, is a pointlessly negative exercise whichever composer it's aimed at. My impression of the frequency with which this happens, to Mozart/Beethoven and to the modernists respectively, is closer to that of Triplets than it is to Lisztian's, but ultimately I don't really think it matters who "suffers" more often. None of it contributes to the discussion.


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## Nereffid (Feb 6, 2013)

Triplets said:


> If you pay attention, you will see that there are several threads in which listeners state they don't like Mozart and wonder why his music is so well regarded. Others have the said the same about Beethoven. It isn't just modernist Composers that come in for disapproval. For some reason, the posters that promote modernist Composers seem to have thinner skins about criticism of their chosen area of interest.
> Classical Music is a broad tent. Not everyone under the tent is going to have the same taste and preferences. It is unrealistic to expect that on a forum devoted to Music appreciation that some people are not going to say "I don't like the music of Composer X or Period Y". I wonder what makes the fans of modernist Composers more prone to throwing hissy fits than fans of other periods.


Certainly _some_ fans of modernism seem adept at the throwing of hissy fits, although the hissier ones seem less prominent on TC these days. But the problem as I see it is that if someone dislikes Mozart or Beethoven, there's a tacit understanding that this is just their personal taste, whereas often if someone dislikes modern music it's apparently not a matter of taste, it's because modern music is inherently inferior. Which is a stupid criticism, and has the knock-on effect of implying that there's something wrong with people who do like the music. It's very annoying to be called stupid by a stupid person.


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## Sloe (May 9, 2014)

Improbus said:


> Having listened for a minute or so to that symphony of his I can at least say that his music (for the lack of a better word) isn't for me.


Except that Penderecki´s first symphony is from 1973 and the quote is from 2015 and his music have been like this for the last 40 years:


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## Marinera (May 13, 2016)

Lisztian said:


> I can assure you that he is not like that. Some people are more sensitive to sound compared to others; some people are unaffected by and/or can't understand the emotional pretensions of music; with some people the music just doesn't seem to reach certain neural pathways that leads to its comprehension as a pleasurable thing: for some people all of these things are true. I don't know I find it hard to understand as well, and it is certainly interesting especially considering I am the exact opposite


Sorry, now I just can't stop thinking about all this. It would be interesting to know if he likes any other sounds that could be considered details - like a single chord on some instrument, maybe a bell's toll or any other sound maybe closer to nature, to start from the very basics. Perhaps music has too much 'jumble' for him, too crowded with sounds. Something very minimalistic with long silent intervals, well 4'33 will serve certainly in its most basic form, though it is not an answer of course.


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## CypressWillow (Apr 2, 2013)

Lisztian said:


> I know this is sorta not relevant, but I know for a fact that music in general is not for everybody as I have a brother who simply cannot stand music and gets very irritable when it is played around him.


I was intrigued by this and Googled the phenomenon. It might be a form of "amusia" where the sounds are simply incomprehensible, and therefore unpleasant.

http://www.richardsonthebrain.com/amusia

I hadn't ever considered that there might be someone for whom music brought no pleasure at all.


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## JeffD (May 8, 2017)

Mandryka said:


> As it is, I think this is a superficial thought, A worthless soundbite. Western philosophy is about truth, and one reason "not everyone can do it" is that the conceptual apparatus that you need to say the truth may be very complicated. I don't know that it's quite the same for music.


I beg to differ. One can read an enjoy Western (and other) philosophy recreationally. One need not be doing philosophy to read philosophy. Just as one can do recreational mathematics, or listen and learn about and enjoy music without actually playing an instrument. The analogy is in what one might chose for recreational reading - one can chose to read philosophical works, and one can chose popular novels, and one can chose political screeds, what ever. Nothing is for everyone.


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## Triplets (Sep 4, 2014)

Nereffid said:


> Certainly _some_ fans of modernism seem adept at the throwing of hissy fits, although the hissier ones seem less prominent on TC these days. But the problem as I see it is that if someone dislikes Mozart or Beethoven, there's a tacit understanding that this is just their personal taste, whereas often if someone dislikes modern music it's apparently not a matter of taste, it's because modern music is inherently inferior. Which is a stupid criticism, and has the knock-on effect of implying that there's something wrong with people who do like the music. It's very annoying to be called stupid by a stupid person.


 That is a cogently stated argument, but I disagree with it. Someone like Pendericki has a pretty well established toehold in the 
in the Pantheon of Great Composers, as do the Second Viennese School, John Cage, Stockhausen, etc. It is just my subjective opinion that the modernist fans react with a lot more drama when their icons are unappreciated. If it is unhelpful to state "I don't like Composer X" without providing a justification, it is less than unhelpful, and counter productive, for someone to say "I am tired of people being mean to Composer X, and I hate you all, and I don't want to play in your sandbox anymore"


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## JeffD (May 8, 2017)

There is a ton of pretense in classical music, of course. And there are many that pretend to like this or that because they feel it separates them from the rabble. 

Pretense is so pervasive that it seems its easy and almost automatic to impugn every comment and every enthusiasm for more obscure music with a degree of smug superiority and then to take offense. But if I fight this feeling, and just take the words, I can't see where Penderecki is wrong in what he says.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Triplets said:


> That is a cogently stated argument, but I disagree with it. Someone like Pendericki has a pretty well established toehold in the in the Pantheon of Great Composers...


I checked my database of works performed by he 30-40 major orchestras in the US, 2015-2016 season. Penderecki was programmed just twice, making him about the 200th most programmed composer.


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## isorhythm (Jan 2, 2015)

KenOC said:


> I checked my database of works performed by he 30-40 major orchestras in the US, 2015-2016 season. Penderecki was programmed just twice, making him about the 200th most programmed composer.


Of course, he's no John Williams.


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## Sloe (May 9, 2014)

KenOC said:


> I checked my database of works performed by he 30-40 major orchestras in the US, 2015-2016 season. Penderecki was programmed just twice, making him about the 200th most programmed composer.


He gets played on radio more than most contemporary composers and more often by some not so unknown composers of the past.
I heard his concerto grosso on radio yesterday:


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

isorhythm said:


> Of course, he's no John Williams.


True. I never heard that he could play the guitar. And I'm pretty sure he's not Australian...


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Sloe said:


> He gets played on radio more than most contemporary composers and more often by some not so unknown composers of the past.


True also. I checked my database again and he was programmed more often than Salieri.


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## Guest (Oct 26, 2017)

PresenTense said:


> What do you think about this?


I think it disappointing that apparently, an extract from an interview, translated into English (with all its attendant risks), has been converted into a contextless soundbite, and some TC posters have rushed to condemn Penderecki, but not the purveyor of the soundbite.


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## isorhythm (Jan 2, 2015)

KenOC said:


> True also. I checked my database again and he was programmed more often than Salieri.


This really surprises me, given how dismal classical FM programming usually is.


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## Sloe (May 9, 2014)

KenOC said:


> True also. I checked my database again and he was programmed more often than Salieri.


Checking on bachtrach.com he is programmed more often than Pierre Boulez, Rautavaara and Peter Maxwell Davies.
Or for the past Joachim Raff.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Sloe said:


> Checking on bachtrach.com he is programmed more often than Pierre Boulez, Rautavaara and Peter Maxwell Davies.
> Or for the past Joachim Raff.


I checked these composers to find their US programming frequencies to compare with Penderecki's 2.

Boulez, 3
Maxwell Davies, 2
Raff, 0
Rautavaara, 2


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## Botschaft (Aug 4, 2017)

Marinera said:


> Well said, I absolutely agree. Also, I know from my own experience and from what I observed that children as young as 3-5-year-olds can be moved and captivated by a classical music work. The audience cannot get broader than that.


This makes me wonder how many 3-5-year-olds would be "moved and captivated" by Penderecki. Let's make that an experiment! Thereby we might perhaps better understand why 'music' isn't for everyone.



Nereffid said:


> _"A concert of good contemporary music in a big city like Warsaw is always sold-out"._ Define "good", please!


I will agree that it's a curious combination of words.


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## eugeneonagain (May 14, 2017)

JeffD said:


> There is a ton of pretense in classical music, of course. And there are many that pretend to like this or that because they feel it separates them from the rabble.
> 
> Pretense is so pervasive that it seems its easy and almost automatic to impugn every comment and every enthusiasm for more obscure music with a degree of smug superiority and then to take offense. But if I fight this feeling, and just take the words, I can't see where Penderecki is wrong in what he says.


Perhaps the truest post of the thread.


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## isorhythm (Jan 2, 2015)

Improbus said:


> This makes me wonder how many 3-5-year-olds would be "moved and captivated" by Penderecki. Let's make that an experiment! Thereby we might perhaps better understand why 'music' isn't for everyone.


Let's also do this with Beethoven's late quartets.


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## eugeneonagain (May 14, 2017)

Triplets said:


> For some reason, the posters that promote modernist Composers seem to have thinner skins about criticism of their chosen area of interest.


It seems to me to be roughly equal. The last few weeks of dismissal and defence written about Mozart in several threads (curiously coinciding and started by 'new' posters) is perhaps clear evidence.



Triplets said:


> I wonder what makes the fans of modernist Composers more prone to throwing hissy fits than fans of other periods.


That's surely a joke? The most defensive people in classical music are without doubt the Wagner fans, then the Bach-Mozart-Beethoven people, perhaps followed closely by the unofficial Stravinsky fan club.

When I am told something along the lines of: Schoenberg is no good/not revolutionary/nothing special blah-di-blah... I would probably write a counter post, but the feeling is never one of 'defensiveness' I generally just consider that person an unschooled twit.


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## Sloe (May 9, 2014)

KenOC said:


> I checked these composers to find their US programming frequencies to compare with Penderecki's 2.
> 
> Boulez, 3
> Maxwell Davies, 2
> ...


America is not all the world.


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

CypressWillow said:


> I was intrigued by this and Googled the phenomenon. It might be a form of "amusia" where the sounds are simply incomprehensible, and therefore unpleasant.
> 
> http://www.richardsonthebrain.com/amusia
> 
> I hadn't ever considered that there might be someone for whom music brought no pleasure at all.


Yes! His brother is clearly an amusiac. Nothing to be mystified about. It is a well known condition.


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## Nereffid (Feb 6, 2013)

Triplets said:


> That is a cogently stated argument, but I disagree with it. Someone like Pendericki has a pretty well established toehold in the
> in the Pantheon of Great Composers, as do the Second Viennese School, John Cage, Stockhausen, etc. It is just my subjective opinion that the modernist fans react with a lot more drama when their icons are unappreciated. If it is unhelpful to state "I don't like Composer X" without providing a justification, it is less than unhelpful, and counter productive, for someone to say "I am tired of people being mean to Composer X, and I hate you all, and I don't want to play in your sandbox anymore"


We're probably more in agreement than you think. I certainly agree on the place of those composers in history, which makes the desire to dismiss them even more pointless. As for your subjective opinion on modernist fans, I'm sure I've said in the past pretty much what you've said in the above post. I don't think there's many die-hard, fit-throwing modernists of the sort we're talking about left on TC these days.


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## Botschaft (Aug 4, 2017)

isorhythm said:


> Let's also do this with Beethoven's late quartets.


Sure, why not.


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## isorhythm (Jan 2, 2015)

I'm familiar with Beethoven's last quartets. Do you think three- to five-year-olds would like them? Do you think that's a good way of evaluating music?


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## JeffD (May 8, 2017)

I am often surprised that people enjoy different things about music. Of course it is true, but widely differing aspects that makes one crazy. So sure music is not for everyone. A certain kind or genre of music that emphasizes emotion and empathy would not "be for" those who primarily appreciate the working out of musical ideas and listen for the structure and its movement. Some look for a purely beautiful experience in music, irrespective of the structure or emotional content. So, again, emotional music would not "be for" them. Others are all into lyrics, and don't even like music without words.

This is obvious on the face of it, and is Penderecki saying anything more than this? 

And how is the kind of music Penderecki composes, and what we may or may not like about it, even relevant to the veracity of his statement?

But we wouldn't be able to get five pages out of this thread if we stuck to the issues. 

(I suspect we are all a little hungry for good conversation and will even create opportunities if we have to, in order to avoid leaving the pub and going home to our lonely garret apartment).


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## Botschaft (Aug 4, 2017)

isorhythm said:


> I'm familiar with Beethoven's last quartets. Do you think three- to five-year-olds would like them? Do you think that's a good way of evaluating music?


They may well if only with a little exposure like parts of them, such as those I linked to. Whether that's a good way of evaluating music: perhaps not, but it may help indicate the amount of natural appeal. Or do think it's all just a matter of accessibility and nothing else? While we're at it let's also do it with some random noises or John Cage's 3'44" and see how that works out.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Sloe said:


> America is not all the world.


I am of course deeply grateful to you for pointing that out. Unfortunately, I don't have a worldwide database of orchestral performances to do the sort of analysis you evidently prefer. If you have access to one, you can post the link here or PM me. Thanks!


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## isorhythm (Jan 2, 2015)

Improbus said:


> They may well if only with a little exposure like parts of them, such as those I linked to. Whether that's a good way of evaluating music: perhaps not, but it may help indicate the amount of natural appeal. Or do think it's all just a matter of accessibility and nothing else? While we're at it let's also do it with some random noises or John Cage's 3'44" and see how that works out.


I don't really understand what you're getting at, I just think your toddler test is bad.

Penderecki's music is good, whether he's one of the all-time greats or whatever I'm not sure, but he's good.


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## tdc (Jan 17, 2011)

Marinera said:


> People who appear to take no interest in music may not be engaged actively in music listening, but I believe they have a few favourite songs or other pieces of music, even if they don't own records and hear them rarely. Relatives on my paternal side are like that my dad and grandmother including, it took me years to find out what music they like, and we are family.


Yes as Liztian describes below there are such people.



Lisztian said:


> My brother finds listening to music to be a negative experience. I've lived with him my whole life and have never once seen him show any enthusiasm for any music, but I have witnessed his complaining about music and his desire to have it turned off hundreds of times. It does nothing for him except sometimes annoy him. He has no favourites except in the sense that some things are less annoying than others. He can usually tolerate music in the games he plays/movies he watches but it's a nullity to him.


Good description, I too have encountered two people in my life that react to music in the way you've described. In my case they seemed like intelligent people with strong interests of their own. Other people around them seemed to be more annoyed with their lack of musical enjoyment than they were.


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## Daniel Atkinson (Dec 31, 2016)

PresenTense said:


> What do you think about this?


I think that you need to stop doing this on every forum you visit, I even see you do this on rock forums! 

You take a quote out of context, post it, sit back and don't engage in the discussion. You just like creating controversies 

Daniel


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## ArtMusic (Jan 5, 2013)

Pugg said:


> Certainly not his music, so far he's right.


Pure and simple indeed. Nothing more, nothing less.


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## Sloe (May 9, 2014)

ArtMusic said:


> Pure and simple indeed. Nothing more, nothing less.


You have previously said that you like his second symphony so at least his music is for you.


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## rhodanine (Oct 28, 2017)

In literature, most people don't appreciate Tolstoy or Ishiguro; in mathematics, most people will never come to know even the faintest inkling of class field theory; in dining, sadly the world at large seems to prefer processed garbage over fresh and wholesome meals. Why should it be any different with music?


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

OP: Unfortunately, Penderecki, with that comment, is feeding the pseudo-intellectual stereotype, that it takes some kind of deep intellectual insight to appreciate and like classical music.

Thanks to opinions like that, I believe many of the uninitiated are afraid of classical music.

As Mozart wrote to his father about one of his recently composed piano concertos, the music should delight the novice, even though he would not know why, as well as be appreciated by the professional musician. That kind of insight can be projected for any great classical piece.
One doesn't need any great skill to enjoy it, yet music theorists can go to town with it and analyze it all they like.

I once played a classical piece for a friend and the reaction was "I wish I understood it" and there's the problem-feel it, rather than understand it!! It's the human thing to do!!


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## Gaspard de la Nuit (Oct 20, 2014)

Lisztian said:


> I know this is sorta not relevant, but I know for a fact that music in general is not for everybody as I have a brother who simply cannot stand music and gets very irritable when it is played around him.


I've also met someone who was annoyed by music. She would go to choral concerts and musicals because she liked the words/ plot.

I don't think any single kind of music will speak to everyone....pop music very much included.........with that said, don't think you can pigeonhole the sort of person who will like a given style of music.


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## Larkenfield (Jun 5, 2017)

Penderecki seems to merely be drawing a distinction between classical music and pop music and the difference in the audiences for each. I think what he’s saying is true. He’s also saying that the study or interest in philosophy is not for everyone. I don’t think that’s an outlandish statement and I happen to agree with him. I don’t see his statement as being snobbish. I think he’s talking about some very basic truths that are self-evident if one reads him closely. Since only about 3% of the public buys classical music, supposedly, that means about 97% of the population is not likely to sit down and listen to a Mozart symphony or a Beethoven piano sonata just for its own sake. Someone sincerely interested in philosophy would certainly be more interested in somebody else talking about it than those who aren’t. I see nothing elitist about his statements. In fact, it sounds rather mild and uncontroversial to me and perhaps even obvious if one gives it a little more thoughtful consideration. If I were living in Warsaw I’m sure I’d be attending more modern or contemporary concerts, because the cultural interest is more in the air.


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## pokeefe0001 (Jan 15, 2017)

chill782002 said:


> Very true. Baffles me but there you go. Perhaps they might be tone deaf? It's fine if someone likes a style of music that I wouldn't go anywhere near but I'm very puzzled if they seem to have no interest in music of any kind.


I've had two occurrences of diplacusis when every single note sounded like a minor 2nd to me. I could not listen to (let alone compose) music during those events. Luckily, each lasted only 2 or 3 days and they were years apart. Someone who permanently had diplacusis would be completely baffled by people liking music.


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## JeffD (May 8, 2017)

hpowders said:


> OP: Unfortunately, Penderecki, with that comment, is feeding the pseudo-intellectual stereotype, that it takes some kind of deep intellectual insight to appreciate and like classical music.


Not that there aren't things, in music, literature, art, philosophy, everywhere, that take some education and experience and, yes, some intellectual insight, to appreciate.

We all know this. Its just uncool to say it.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

I once took a date to the opera. I asked her how she liked it and she told me it would have been a lot better without all that singing. The hell I live through.

I guess opera's not for everybody!


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## JeffD (May 8, 2017)

hpowders said:


> I once took a date to the opera. I asked her how she liked it and she told me it would have been a lot better without all that singing. The hell I live through.
> 
> I guess opera's not for everybody!


LOL. Dating is not for everybody either.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

hpowders said:


> I once took a date to the opera. I asked her how she liked it and she told me it would have been a lot better without all that singing. The hell I live through.
> 
> I guess opera's not for everybody!


She was just agreeing with Debussy, who said, "In opera, there is always too much singing."


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## regenmusic (Oct 23, 2014)

I think life proves that music is for everybody. Some people stop understanding how much they would like it if they gave it more of a try when they're older.


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## Marinera (May 13, 2016)

I am fast reaching the conclusion that only nutrition, hydration and breathing have to be for everybody.


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## tdc (Jan 17, 2011)

Marinera said:


> I am fast reaching the conclusion that only nutrition, hydration and breathing have to be for everybody.


Actually there is some evidence to suggest that not everyone requires nutrition or hydration.

http://nationalpost.com/news/indian-man-survives-without-food-and-water-baffles-doctors


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## isorhythm (Jan 2, 2015)

JeffD said:


> Not that there aren't things, in music, literature, art, philosophy, everywhere, that take some education and experience and, yes, some intellectual insight, to appreciate.
> 
> We all know this. Its just uncool to say it.


Here are the best-selling fiction authors of all time: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_best-selling_fiction_authors

I'm guessing most people here who harp on the relative unpopularity of certain music to justify their own antipathy (or incomprehension) would never say anything similar about literature.


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## Marinera (May 13, 2016)

tdc said:


> Actually there is some evidence to suggest that not everyone requires nutrition or hydration.
> 
> http://nationalpost.com/news/indian-man-survives-without-food-and-water-baffles-doctors


I just knew something like that would come up. Should've added a disclaimer exempting all Jesus, Buddha and apparently Jogi figures from that rule.

However, those mentioned above tend to step into Nirvana, transfigure and transcend soon enough and leave us to our ordinary existence. Jogi is just one step away from the experience anyway. So, let's say if nobody's planning any of the three above (Nirvana, transfiguration or transcendence somewhere else) - the rule regarding nutrition and hydration still holds. And don't forget to breathe.


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## JeffD (May 8, 2017)

isorhythm said:


> Here are the best-selling fiction authors of all time: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_best-selling_fiction_authors
> 
> I'm guessing most people here who harp on the relative unpopularity of certain music to justify their own antipathy (or incomprehension) would never say anything similar about literature.


I think that table would turn some heads.

I find a similar trend in literature as classical music, with some folks constantly referencing obscure authors they read, to show their relative sophistication, and others who see snobby elitism in any unfamiliar reference.

My Dad taught me that to have lots of friends I should avoid talking about sex, politics, religion, and salary. I have found that I also need to be very careful when I want to talk about the music I listen to or the books I read.


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## ClassicalListener (Oct 17, 2014)

""Taste is relative" is the protest of ages without taste."

Anything good is elitist. We should strive for elitism.


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## Larkenfield (Jun 5, 2017)

Discrimination in the arts is not dependent on elitism and the arbitrary deciders who would love to dictate what others like and listen to. Nor is greatness in music and broad appeal mutually exclusive of each other, though it's usually rare.


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## St Matthew (Aug 26, 2017)

ClassicalListener said:


> ""Taste is relative" is the protest of ages without taste.


No, it's due to that the artform of music (and art as a whole) only exists because of two things: subjectivity and imagination.

"Taste is relative" is life 101



ClassicalListener said:


> Anything good is elitist. We should strive for elitism.


Elitism on anything at all, is like a bunch of kids who are scared of the older kids.


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## science (Oct 14, 2010)

No music is for everybody.


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## Nereffid (Feb 6, 2013)

St Matthew said:


> Elitism on anything at all, is like a bunch of kids who are scared of the older kids.


Probably more like a bunch of kids who are scared of the _younger_ kids.


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