# Hans Rott



## Mahler7

how do you guys view this composer, esp his similarity to mahler? i really love his symphony in e major but have heard no other recording by him.

a very tragic end to his life winding up in a nut house after pulling a pistol on a guy on a train when he tried to light up.

brahms seemed to be especially critical towards him... a reoccurring theme it seems, though i don't know much about brahms.

would like to hear other views of this composer.

thanks


----------



## Wicked_one

I know I listened the same as you, the symphony in E major and I was like "WHOA!!". I think he would've been on the same rank as Mahler. Don't know if better, but emotionally the same: full of depth, color and has that je ne sais qoui which moves something within you (in case you experienced this with Mahler's music).

Hmm.. Think I'm gonna listen to it again.


----------



## Art Rock

It's a good symphony, but it cannot stand a back-to-back comparison with Mahler's first IMO.


----------



## bassClef

I'm going to listen to it the first time this afternoon


----------



## trillian

what a sad story. a flower that never had its chance to bloom

theres only one record (symphony in e major by Norrkoping Symphony Orchestra; Segerstam, Leif) that i can find to listen to, which is good but i didnt find too impressive. but hans rott just didnt have the chance to take his time 

but his influence (again, symphony in e major is the *only* thing from him that i've ever heard) to mahler was *really* obvious. (if i didnt get it wrong?)


----------



## emiellucifuge

I have to concur with all of the above


----------



## joen_cph

> theres only one record (symphony in e major by Norrkoping Symphony Orchestra; Segerstam, Leif) that i can find to listen to, which is good but i didnt find too impressive. but hans rott just didnt have the chance to take his time


 To me it is one of Segerstam´s not-so-good recordings. When I heard the arte nova budget CD issue conducted by Weigle I found the work much better; there´s much more emotional and melodical commitment and the CD includes two other small orchestral works by Rott.


----------



## ScipioAfricanus

Hans Rott symphony is one of the few works that made me cry. Brahms petulance for rudeness and insensitivity coupled with the fact that Hans Rott was one of Bruckner's students signed Han Rott's death warrant. Hans should have avoided Brahms at all cost but the boy had a good naive spirit and wanted to be judged by the merits of his work and his potential. Brahms told Hans he did not have talent and should give up composition. When Brahms criticized other composers he merely told them to go study some more counterpoint, others he would offer a stipend etc but if they were in anyway affiliated with Bruckner, Liszt of Wagner, he became vile towards them. Hans studied with Bruckner and Bruckner sang his praises, Brahms became venomous. Because of Brahms, we lost Hans Rott early. Hans Rott would have been better than Mahler, and he would have given us chamber music as well as opera in addition to his symphonies.


----------



## elgar's ghost

Sad as it was for Rott to die so young just think how much persecution he'd have suffered at the poisoned fang-like pen of Eduard Hanslick had he lived longer. Had he done so then the only positive is that it may have took some heat off Bruckner who was very nearly broken. Brahms in comparison really would have been the least of Rott's problems. Hanslick was a reactionary menace who often abused his power and influence just to satisfy his craving to keep music under a mid-19th century classical/romantic permafrost and feel big while trampling any supposed opponents to his way of thinking underfoot. A totally loathsome creature who deserved a serious kicking.


----------



## ScipioAfricanus

Hanslick was definitely a loathsome creature. But Brahms also had an unpredictable way of complimenting and insulting. I think Brahms would have done the most damage to Rott (and indeed he did) because Brahms was on the Beethoven Throne.


----------



## StlukesguildOhio

Hans Rott symphony is one of the few works that made me cry. Brahms petulance for rudeness and insensitivity coupled with the fact that Hans Rott was one of Bruckner's students signed Han Rott's death warrant. Hans should have avoided Brahms at all cost but the boy had a good naive spirit and wanted to be judged by the merits of his work and his potential. Brahms told Hans he did not have talent and should give up composition.

Brahms and Hanslick were both such pricks that they almost make Wagner look like a sweetheart in comparison. The sole consolation is the fact that both Brahms and Hanslick must have often cringed in the realization that it was Wagner who was the future of music

Seriously, I quite like what I have heard by Rott and think he most certainly had the potential to have developed into a major composer... but we'll never know. As it stands I think we would be really stretching things to place him along side of Mahler or Bruckner.


----------



## HarpsichordConcerto

Interesting. I never heard of Rott (not that I could recall) before this. So I visited my two favourite internet classical shops and looked up Hans Rott. The first shop has 4 recordings and the second shop has 3 recordings! All 7 feature the Symphony in E major. Must be quite a symphony.


----------



## Sid James

I'm dubious when people go off singling out some person or maybe even a single occurrence as the reason behind someone developing a psychological disorder. There must have been a set of circumstances behind Rott's decline, and (as we now know), people can have a biological inclination towards developing a psychological disorder. Hanslick was also very caustic towards guys like Tchaikovsky (he said the violin concerto was a total stinker - obviously he was dead wrong). We don't blame Tchaikovsky's depression on Hanslick, and neither should we do that regarding the latter's attitude towards Rott. & as we all know, Bruckner's symphonies were also savaged by Hanslick. Whatever grief it caused Bruckner (& we know it did), he already had existing psychological problems which probably were not related to any criticisms (including a breakdown at some stage, which he recovered from).

BTW I have only read about, and never heard, Rott's symphony (or his other works)...


----------



## ScipioAfricanus

Andre said:


> I'm dubious when people go off singling out some person or maybe even a single occurrence as the reason behind someone developing a psychological disorder.


It was Brahms fault. When Hans finally snapped he was yelling out Brahms' name. Fact is Ivan Terrible Brahms wounded the young man greatly with his putrid unfounded criticisms. If Hans was my son, I would have gone to Brahms when he was walking home, and kicked him in his fat tummy. Then tell him that Herr Kirchner is banging his virginal Clara Schumann.


----------



## ScipioAfricanus

HarpsichordConcerto said:


> Interesting. I never heard of Rott (not that I could recall) before this. So I visited my two favourite internet classical shops and looked up Hans Rott. The first shop has 4 recordings and the second shop has 3 recordings! All 7 feature the Symphony in E major. Must be quite a symphony.


brilliant symphony. It starts with quiet violin tremolos, and the trumpet enters singing an idyllic pastoral melody with a tinge of sadness, then the horns and the basses add warmth. Ok that's enough, go get the cd.


----------



## Rasa

Infact, this work and a mahler work (I think Das Klagende Lied) were the Beethoven price competition (for composition) along with a piano concerto by pleyel.

The pleyel won, even though it's an extremely boring work, inspite of the two other masterpieces presented.


----------



## CyrilWashbrook

Bumping this thread somewhat...



joen_cph said:


> To me it is one of Segerstam´s not-so-good recordings. When I heard the arte nova budget CD issue conducted by Weigle I found the work much better; there´s much more emotional and melodical commitment and the CD includes two other small orchestral works by Rott.


I agree that the dour Segerstam version is far from the best of the small selection of recordings that have been made. Among other things, it drags noticeably in parts, contains some odd phrasing (e.g. the build-up in the second movement is interrupted by bulging sforzandos; I don't know whether they're marked in the score, but they don't work either way), and generally loses much of the liveliness that makes this symphony an exciting work to listen to.

The recording I've listened to most is the one from the Philharmonisches Staatsorchester Mainz conducted by Catherine Rückwardt. The tempo choices are more astute and the performance seems to capture the "spirit" of the music far better. I've only heard the Weigle once on Spotify (before I got the Rückwardt) but it gets the thumbs-up from me too.

I've also just finished listening through the very good rendition by the Radio Symphonieorchester Wien under the direction of Dennis Russell Davies. I only just got hold of it, although I'd listened to parts of it on YouTube before (it was in fact the first version I'd heard).


----------



## nordanland

*About Rott and Brahms*

Off course you cannot totally blame Brahms for Rotts menthal decease and disaster. There are always circumstances and more than one factor behind things like that. We might take a brief look at Hans Rotts life and situation in the late 1870:s. Rott adored his mother above all. She died from leukemia 1872 when he was 14 years of age. This was one of the first disasters in his life. A few years later his father - a famous actor in Vienna, had an accident on the stage that ended his brilliant career. The family's economy was totally ruined and Rotts father sold furniture and other things of some value to survive. In those days there were seldom "good pensions" or insurances that could cover for the unexpected. Two years after the accident Rotts father died. Hans Rott was then 18 and suddenly he and his younger brother was all that was left of the family. And Hans Rott was to struggle for their survival. Anton Bruckner had got him a job as organist in the Piaristen Church in Vienna. A much underpaid job but it gave him a department and a piano was placed in his room. Hans and his brother had to rely on help and gifts from friends to make it. Hans Rott was a deeply religious man and all his life he felt guilty because he and his half-brother had different fathers and that their parents were not married when they were born. He was also extremely sensitive and vulnerable. At the same time he had the highest plans and visions about his future as a conductor and composer. In the summer of 1879 he met the love of his life - Louise Löhr, a younger sister to his friend Freiedrich Löhr. In 1880 he had finished the orchestration work with his first symphony. He was about to marry Louise and hopefully thought he could win a scholarship with his symphony and maybe also the great Beethoven prize with a string sextet he had written. Anyway his great symphony should give him a "position in the society" and also a well paid job as an organist in one of the great churches or a prominent job as a conductor. He also contacted Hans Richter, the famous conductor, to have the Wiener Philharmonics to perform his symphony. 17 sept 1880 he stood in front of the mighty jury with the best and highest of hopes. And it turned out to become thee traumatic catastrophe of his life. There were three men in the jury, Eduardo Hanslick, Karl Goldmark and Johannes Brahms. Brahms accused Rott of theft and claimed Rott could by no means have written the symphony himself. He also recommended the young man to do whatever in life but dealing with music. Now, Hans Richter was Rotts last chance to stay and work in Vienna, the place he loved over all. If Richter would perform his symphony Rott did not have to accept a job as a choir leader in Mulhausen hundreds of miles from his beloved Louise and home city. But Richter turned him down. In a state of despair and defeat he got on the train to Mulhausen October 21. There was to be a stop at Linz and Rott had to spend the night at a hotel. We know he could not sleep because they heard him cry all night that Brahms was bolting in the walls all the time. We also know that he the next day threatened a man with a gun, shouting that Brahms had loaded the train with dynamite and he ordered the poor passenger to immediately "kill" his cigar. In the town of Simbach they arrested Rott and brought him to The Psychiatric Clinic of the General Hospital in Vienna "in a completely crazy state".
After an attempt to take his own life he was transferred the provincial Asylum of lower Austria. Here he stayed for almost four years and died from tuberculosis. From this one might realize that Johannes Brahms was perhaps not the one and only reason behind Rott collaps. It is quite evident though that he started the process that so sadly ended Rott in an asylum. We also know that Anton Bruckner openly accused Johannes Brahms - who also attended the ceremony - of Rotts mental collapse and early death. Right or wrong - Brahms was the evil daemon in Hans Rotts imagination and short life. One might add that Rott about five months after the fatal jury decision got his scholarship from the education department - despite Brahms harsh treatment. But then it was already too late and Rott was all indifferent.
There have been many speculations about Brahms very rough behavior against Rott. We can see two kinds of reasons here. First, Brahms might have had personal reasons to dislike Rott. Secondly, it was a matter of politics. Brahms and Hanslick were defenders of the old school. Their great antagonist was Wagner and they also saw Anton Bruckner as a Wagner follower. Especially Hanslick was full of disgust and hatred when he wrote his sarcasms over Bruckner and Wagner in the leading music journals and papers. Hans Rott was in Brahms and Hanslicks eyes a true Wagnerian and must be fought to any cost. But there might have been personal reasons. Rott used a Schumann motif a couple of times in his symphony which easily could remind Johannes Brahms of his beloved Clara Schumann. Rott also used some of Brahms motifs from his first symphony in the final. Brahms might have thought that the young man was making fun of him. And maybe another thing - Hans Rott was only 20 years of age when he wrote his first symphony. Brahms himself was 40! Bruckner at Rotts funeral speech accuses Brahms of nothing but pure jealousy.


----------



## Johnnie Burgess

Such a tragedy that he died so young.


----------



## Lenny

What a symphony (the E major)! Interesting themes, emotion, lots of technique. Third movement sounds a bit like Mahler, so I checked some facts. Mahler finished his first 1888, but Rott's first was finished in 1880. Interesting.

I can somehow now understand the reaction of Brahms... This is a huge work, and Brahms obviously felt threatened. Just read from wikipedia what Mahler wrote about Rott:

_a musician of genius ... who died unrecognized and in want on the very threshold of his career. ... What music has lost in him cannot be estimated. Such is the height to which his genius soars in ... [his] Symphony [in E major], which he wrote as 20-year-old youth and makes him ... the Founder of the New Symphony as I see it. To be sure, what he wanted is not quite what he achieved. … But I know where he aims. Indeed, he is so near to my inmost self that he and I seem to me like two fruits from the same tree which the same soil has produced and the same air nourished. He could have meant infinitely much to me and perhaps the two of us would have well-nigh exhausted the content of new time which was breaking out for music._

Not sure if I can trust my ears, but in his symphony Rott is doing some sort of fusion of Wagner and Brahms, or at least trying to do.. Something the 2nd school then also tried later. Very influential stuff, as can be seen from the Mahler quote. Very technical, very subtle. I'm sure Brahms was totally pissed.


----------



## Animal the Drummer

I love this piece and have a number of recordings of it in my collection, but for me one stands out ahead of the rest, and that's the one with the Frankfurt Radio Symphony conducted by Paavo Järvi. He applies just enough discipline to this sometimes sprawling (though always lovely) piece to keep it constantly moving forward while never neglecting its passing beauties.

How strange, given all the Mahler comparisons, that though I'm very fond of this symphony I've never been able to enjoy those of Mahler. I can recognise the immense craft he put into them but I simply don't like the actual sounds he creates. Go figure.


----------



## Pugg

Animal the Drummer said:


> I love this piece and have a number of recordings of it in my collection, but for me one stands out ahead of the rest, and that's the one with the Frankfurt Radio Symphony conducted by Paavo Järvi. He applies just enough discipline to this sometimes sprawling (though always lovely) piece to keep it constantly moving forward while never neglecting its passing beauties.
> 
> How strange, given all the Mahler comparisons, that though I'm very fond of this symphony I've never been able to enjoy those of Mahler. I can recognise the immense craft he put into them but I simply don't like the actual sounds he creates. Go figure.


Different people different taste .


----------



## Lenny

I can't help but keep listening to this symphony. It's great.

The final movement is very interesting indeed. From the tragic opening raises up the magnificent quote of 1st Brahms symphony, intertwining with all the main themes of symphony, filled up with little wagnerism here and there, almost as if he is possessed by Wagner himself. Not offending, but offering hand. I guess that's where Brahms lost it. How dare this young kid talk to HIM the way he himiself is talking to great Ludvig Van?


----------



## Larkenfield

Mahler7 said:


> how do you guys view this composer, esp his similarity to mahler? i really love his symphony in e major but have heard no other recording by him.
> 
> a very tragic end to his life winding up in a nut house after pulling a pistol on a guy on a train when he tried to light up.
> 
> brahms seemed to be especially critical towards him... a reoccurring theme it seems, though i don't know much about brahms.
> 
> would like to hear other views of this composer.
> 
> thanks


It's true that Brahms emdodied the soul of dismissive insults with the sensitive Rott. Not the finest hour for either of them: for Rott going to Brahms for approval to begin with, and for Brahms being so callously discouraging of Rott's talent. Was Brahms a wiseass? Well, he was known for it! Rott was playing with fire!

https://www.google.com/amp/amp.slate.com/articles/arts/music_box/2006/10/classic_putdowns.html


----------



## MusicSybarite

This is one of the few occasions that I disagree with something about Brahms. He was very unfair with Rott. His Symphony is so marvelous and visionary. Music needs to evolve along good paths, and Rott was trying one really impressive. Fortunately, Mahler followed his steps and left us one of the greatest symphonic cycles ever.


----------



## nordanland

For all interested - my novel about Hans Rott will be published at the end of feb 2019 by an Austrian publisher and in German. So, if you understand German it might be something for you ... ;-) Let us hope that eventually there will be an English translation.


----------



## nordanland

About the novel: "Wie man ein Geni tötet"
http://www.picus.at/produkt/wie-man-ein-genie-toetet/


----------



## Zhdanov

ScipioAfricanus said:


> the trumpet enters singing an idyllic pastoral melody with a tinge of sadness,


however, trumpets would symbolise things olympic, it should have been the oboe or clarinet for a pastoral mood.


----------



## Joachim Raff

Listening to this... would he have been better than Mahler or Bruckner? Super version anyway.


----------



## Allegro Con Brio

Interesting, I just listened to Rott's symphony the other day (though I must admit to some skipping around since I got severely annoyed at that ******* triangle!). I honestly don't see why it's so maligned. It's a composition of youth; a conservatory project, not a sign of what his compositional language would be had he lived. I thought the ideas were well-integrated, the melodies interesting, the orchestration serviceable in Brucknerian fashion, a good deal of Mahlerian angst throughout. Unnecessarily elongated? Ya betcha. But if he had had a composition teacher with the skill and authority of Brahms but with a more encouraging critical eye for a young composer, he could have gone great places. Leif Segerstam's recording on BIS, I thought, really did it justice. At the very least, something that every CM fan has to hear; and at the most, one of the most intriguing symphonies of its era.


----------



## Becca

I suggest that you listen to the Paavo Jarvi recording as, apart from being a very good performance, has the least intrusive triangle!


----------



## Joachim Raff

_"The one piece that's entirely new here is the Hamlet Overture, which Rott commenced in 1876 but never completed. It's a striking piece, clearly influenced by Mendelssohn and Wagner but notably stylish and assured for a work by an 18-year-old composer….Ward and his players deliver polished and enthusiastic performances of Rott's scores and the recording is satisfyingly detailed and expansive."_


----------



## Fpanny

joen_cph said:


> To me it is one of Segerstam´s not-so-good recordings. When I heard the arte nova budget CD issue conducted by Weigle I found the work much better; there´s much more emotional and melodical commitment and the CD includes two other small orchestral works by Rott.


My favorite is Gerhard Samuel with the Cincinnati Philharmonia Orchestra. To me, that is probably the standard. And it's a bit slower, though nowhere near as slow is Segerstam.


----------

