# Classical Piece Title Structure Question



## Mr&Cmdr (4 mo ago)

Hello all,
I have a question about the "title" structure of classical pieces. As someone who is relatively new to classical music, I'm of the understanding that Op. (Opus) is in reference to the composer's overall piece chronologically (in most cases), whereas No. (composition number) refers to how many pieces of that composition the composer had composed. (So, Beethoven's Symphony No. 5 in C Minor, Op. 67, as I understand it, would mean it was Beethoven's 5th symphony, but his 67th composed work overall). How can it be, then, that a composition number (No.) can be greater than an Opus number (Op.)? Specifically, I'm looking at Corelli's Concerto grosso in G Minor, Op. 6 No. 8. Wouldn't this suggest it was Corelli's 8th Concerto grosso, yet just his 6th composed work overall?
Thank you for the clarification and helping a rookie out!


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## GraemeG (Jun 30, 2009)

Opus number is a publishing number, not a composition one. You can publish whatever you like, in whatever way, if you can talk a publisher into it! So Beethoven published 6 quartets as his Op18, .
Similarly, Corelli's Op6 was a dozen Concerti Grosso, numbered 1-12.
And lots of composers have works that get no opus number, either because they weren't 'published' - all those WoO (Work without Opus) of Beethoven, for instance, or in some cases because the composer didn't allocate them a number (like Brahms' Hungarian Dances).


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## Mr&Cmdr (4 mo ago)

GraemeG said:


> Opus number is a publishing number, not a composition one. You can publish whatever you like, in whatever way, if you can talk a publisher into it! So Beethoven published 6 quartets as his Op18, .
> Similarly, Corelli's Op6 was a dozen Concerti Grosso, numbered 1-12.
> And lots of composers have works that get no opus number, either because they weren't 'published' - all those WoO (Work without Opus) of Beethoven, for instance, or in some cases because the composer didn't allocate them a number (like Brahms' Hungarian Dances).


Thank you for the reply and clarification, GraemeG! So, is it more accurate to say that "Corelli's Op. 6 No. 8" was his 8th Concerto Grosso ever, or just the 8th within Op. 6? (If that makes sense)


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Mr&Cmdr said:


> Thank you for the reply and clarification, GraemeG! So, is it more accurate to say that "Corelli's Op. 6 No. 8" was his 8th Concerto Grosso ever, or just the 8th within Op. 6? (If that makes sense)


Op. 6, No. 8 is the eighth concerto within the set of twelve published as Op. 6.


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## GraemeG (Jun 30, 2009)

Also, 'numbering' is often after the fact. When Brahms published what we now call his Piano Trio No 1 op 8, it was published as "Trio (B major) for Piano, Violin, Cello op 8". The reason we call it No 1 today is because he published two more piano trios after the first. I haven't checked, but I bet the title pages of those don't say "No 2 or No 3." That's not to say composers don't put numbers on their works, just that it's not that common. I think the title page of Beethoven's 7th just says "Grand Sinfonie in A" doesn't it? Not 'symphony no 7'.
For that reason Op numbers and keys are usually safest as a reference.


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## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

Mr&Cmdr said:


> So, is it more accurate to say that "Corelli's Op. 6 No. 8" was his 8th Concerto Grosso ever, or just the 8th within Op. 6? (If that makes sense)


It is both, because there is only this published opus with 12 concerti by Corelli. (All of his other published works are chamber music, mostly trio sonatas.) 
But in this case there is no alternative common cardinal numbering anyway. E.g. in the case of Handel there are 6 concerti grossi in op.3 and 12 in op.6 and a few without an opus. But it is very uncommon to call the concerto b minor op.6 Nr. 12 "Nr. 18", it's just op.6,12. 
If both overall numbers and opus numbers are used, like in Beethoven, the overall number is commonly put first, e.g. String quartet Nr. 9 (overall) in C major op.59 Nr. 3 (number within the opus).
After Beethoven it became uncommon to have "large" works collected in an opus although it can occur (like in Brahms's string quartets op.51 Nr. 1+2) and remains common with shorter piano pieces or Lieder.

There can also be differences between order of composition and publication and all kinds of complications; before the late 18th century a lot of music was not published at all (note engraving remained far more expensive than printing with movable letters until late 20th century computer programs, there are youtube videos that show some of the last engravers at work).

That's one reason why for many composers there are specific later catalogues by musicologists usually called "something Verzeichnis" named either for the scholar who started the project like Koechel for Mozart, Deutsch for Schubert etc. or for the composer like "BWV" Bach-Werke-Verzeichnis (catalogue of Bach's works) that were joint projects over decades by musicological societies or institutes.


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## Mr&Cmdr (4 mo ago)

Thank you all for your insight! This is exceptionally helpful.


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

When concertos, symphonies, and sonatas were short works of 10-12 minutes duration (symphonies were usually a bit longer), they were bundled together and published under one cover for the sake of efficiency and economy, nearly always in multiples of three. So sets of 6 and 12 were normal until the individual works got longer, at which point sets of 3 became more common (like Beethoven's Quartets Op. 59).


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## larold (Jul 20, 2017)

Opus is if the composer numbered the works him/herself or if the catalouger took the easy way out.

You may have noticed J.S. Bach's work begins with *BWV*; that's for *Bach-Werke-Verzeichnis* which was first organized/catalouged by Johann Schmeider in the 1950s.

Vivaldi's works are organized under *RV* -- the cataloging by *Peter Ryom*. Some old Vivaldi is catalogued by *P* for *Marc Pincherle*.

There are others whose music is not listed by opus number though most are.


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