# Favorite Woodwind sections



## Heck148

As a long time professional performer, and listener of music, I've of course, developed favorites among orchestras, conductors, etc, etc...
I don't remember a thread pertaining to favorite orchestral woodwind sections - so I thought I'd start one off ....also - it's fun for music lovers to learn the names, the people, who are performing on their favorite recordings...
Generally, it takes some time, years, many seasons, many rehearsals, concerts for a woodwind section to really develop - the ensemble, the intonation, the balance, the timing...consequently, most of my favorite sections were pretty constant over many years - members would come and go, but usually only one at a time so the new member had a very solid ensemble in which to find his/her new place...

I went to the Eastman School, in Rochester, NY - and this was very strong Chicago, New York, Cleveland territory - at least it was then, and I believe it still is. that style of performance was very highly stressed - big sound, lots of projection, rhythmic accuracy and precision, solid "nail every note"
technique. _Flamboyant_ isn't quite the word I seek, _assertive_ is probably better...

one thing I love about these sections is, not only the superior virtuosity of the principals, but the very solid, outstanding work of the section players, the 2nds, 3rds, associates, etc....they produce a big _choir_- sound when needed - not top heavy, with an over-abundance of treble - flute, oboe, high clarinet, with weak lower voices...we get plenty of top, but the bass and tenor are very full and resonant as well - lots of clarinet, bassoon sonority, and the high voices sitting on top, rather like the icing on a cake...

My favorite orchestra woodwind sections predictably, conform to this concept -

NYPO - esp in the late 40s-50s - some great, molto expressive musicians - Wummer [Fl], Harold Gomberg [ob] Simeon Bellison, Robt. McGinnis [cl]. Wm Polisi [Bssn] Jas Chambers [ Hn] - this section eventually changed with new personnel, but it maintained its full sound, and robust approach - J. Baker [Fl], Drucker [Cl] Zegler [Bssn]

ChicagoSO - Reiner years, thru Martinon, Solti - Donald Peck [fl], Ray Still [ob], Clark Brody [Cl], Leonard Sharrow [Bn] P. Farkas, [Hn] - this section too, evolved, but remained most excellent - Peck and Still remained constant for many, many years [into the 90s], Larry Combs [Cl], Willard Elliot [bn] Dale Clevenger [Hn]

Cleveland Orchestra - under Szell - Maurice Sharp [Fl], Marc Lifschey [ob], Robt Marcellus [Cl], George Goslee [bn], Myron Bloom [Hn]...this wonderful section stayed very constant under Szell, except Lifschey left and John Mack joined in 1965....

on all NYPO, CSO, ClevelandO recordings, we can hear the splendid work of these superb sections.

Philadelphia had superb woodwinds with Stokowski and Ormandy, and deserve mention - not my favorite sound quality, but the ensemble was always impeccable....everyone from the same school, or style of performance.... We used to go up to Saratoga PAC each summer, where the PhilaOPrch members would give Woodwind 5tet concerts - always wonderful - standard repertoire, they tossed it off effortlessly...


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## Larkenfield

Cleveland under Szell and Philadelphia under Ormandy sounded so identifiable and "seasoned" to me. I thought they were warm and wonderful as a section and as tremendous soloists.

Maybe it's that the woodwind sections of today don't play together long enough to develop that richness of sound and artistic clairvoyance. Too bad! In most orchestras of today I'm rarely aware of the woodwinds as a _section_, though they obviously play well together and may have great individual players and soloists. But I'm rarely struck by them as a cohesive section with notably outstanding individuality and distinctive character.

I feel that something rich and valuable has been lost with the current make-up and diversity of today's orchestras. Perhaps they no longer have a tyrant to push them from the podium to the limit of their capabilities-it wouldn't be politically correct to have a tyrant like before. What a loss despite so many orchestras still being universally competent and excellent and capable of giving fine performances, but perhaps not memorable ones. They don't seem to have the transformative power on the listener that some of the great orchestras of the past seemed to have in abundance. The NYP under Bernstein bristled with personality, aliveness and character. The orchestra seemed even _dangerous_ at times, capable of doing the totally unexpected and challenging Bernstein as much as he was capable of challenging them-to be daring and make something happen. Nevertheless, I salute the general high-level of performance that can now be heard from the top level orchestras around the world.

PS. I thought the Detroit Symphony under Leonard Slatkin had a outstanding and seasoned-sounding woodwind section when playing the Tchaikovsky 5th Symphony, like they had been together for years. Marvelous, especially the oboe player. Wish I knew his name.


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## david johnson

My clarinet friends in college always wanted to ply like Marcellus in Cleveland. Oboists had an interest in Tabiteau of Philadelphia. When I was teaching, I always worked for clear, rich, mellow tones with a strong bass and inner parts. If all are in tune, your upper lines just sit on the top without any distortion.


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## Becca

I realize that as a non-player, I am a bit out of my depth in this discussion, however 

The Philharmonia Orchestra of the 50s and 60s, definitely one of the top orchestras of its time, had a woodwind section called Legge's Royal Flush (after Walter Legge who created/managed the orchestra) ... Bernard Walton (Cl), Gareth Morris (Fl), Sidney (Jock) Sutcliffe (Ob), and Gwydion Brooke (Ba).

Then there is the current Berlin Philharmonic section which has a duplication of riches and has been together for 15+ years ... Wenzel Fuchs and Andreas Ottensamer (Cl), Albrecht Meyer and Jonathan Kelly (Ob), Emmanuel Pahud and Mathieu Dufour (Fl) and ... and Daniele Damiano and Stefan Schweigert (Ba). Then there is the incredible Stephan Dohr on horn. Perhaps they are not as aggressively forward as some of the aforementioned US orchestras but then we don't all prefer that style.


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## Heck148

Larkenfield said:


> Maybe it's that the woodwind sections of today don't play together long enough to develop that richness of sound and artistic clairvoyance. Too bad! In most orchestras of today I'm rarely aware of the woodwinds as a _section_, though they obviously play well together and may have great individual players and soloists. But I'm rarely struck by them as a cohesive section with notably outstanding individuality and distinctive character.


There is a lot of musical chairs, orchestra hopping - I suppose that has always gone on to some extent, but I agree - few sections now display the distinctive group personalities of yore....Boston is very typical of this - they have generally fine principals, but the section as a whole, does not sound distinctive...NYPO and Chicago have in the recent past, but at present, there are many personnel changes going on...



> I feel that something rich and valuable has been lost with the current make-up and diversity of today's orchestras. Perhaps they no longer have a tyrant to push them from the podium to the limit of their capabilities-it wouldn't be politically correct to have a tyrant like before. What a loss despite so many orchestras still being universally competent and excellent and capable of giving fine performances, but perhaps not memorable ones.


A big part is that the music director does not devote huge blocks of time to one particular orchestra - jet-set rules apply, with conductors flying all over the globe to conduct in different venues...when one conductor spends months, many rehearsals, many concerts conducting the same orchestra, a characteristic sound will develop....



> .....The NYP under Bernstein bristled with personality, aliveness and character. The orchestra seemed even _dangerous_ at times, capable of doing the totally unexpected and challenging Bernstein as much as he was capable of challenging them-to be daring and make something happen.


Yes,good point, but the NYPO approach precedes Bernstein's directorship - under Mitropoulos and the multi-conductor format of the late 40s and 50s, the NYPO did indeed become quite brazen and unique - they got away with murder - at times sloppy, but at other times, incredibly brilliant, flamboyant and flashy....,.this fit in well with Bernstein's ultra-_espressivo_ approach when he did take over.



> I thought the Detroit Symphony under Leonard Slatkin had a outstanding and seasoned-sounding woodwind section when playing the Tchaikovsky 5th Symphony, like they had been together for years. Marvelous, especially the oboe player. Wish I knew his name.


Might be this musician - 
From DSO website:
<<*Alex Kinmonth* has recently been appointed [2015] Principal Oboe of the Detroit Symphony Orchestra by Leonard Slatkin and can be heard on the DSO's most recent recordings of Tchaikovsky's Symphonies 1, 2, 4 and 6. He is a graduate of The Juilliard School, where he studied with Nathan Hughes of the Metropolitan Opera.


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## Heck148

david johnson said:


> My clarinet friends in college always wanted to ply like Marcellus in Cleveland. Oboists had an interest in Tabiteau of Philadelphia. When I was teaching, I always worked for clear, rich, mellow tones with a strong bass and inner parts. If all are in tune, your upper lines just sit on the top without any distortion.


Marcellus was extremely highly regarded in the musical world - it is unfortunate that his health concerns [severe diabetes] curtailed his career.

Tabuteau is legendary as a teacher - almost all of the premiere oboists of the previous generation studied with him.


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## Heck148

Becca said:


> I realize that as a non-player, I am a bit out of my depth in this discussion, however


no problem - listener's input is most valuable...



> Then there is the current Berlin Philharmonic section which has a duplication of riches and has been together for 15+ years ....


Heard them live, Mahler 9th, with Abbado, Boston Sym Hall....fine ensemble playing by section - it's true they don't push, project, like their American counterparts, but the ensemble, matching of style and dynamics was most excellent...I prefer more sound, also, the 2nd players in European orchestras are much more reticent - very quiet...that seems to be the preferred style....I like a more robust input from the section - it helps produce that big organ-like sound....I do love the sound of the Czech PO woodwinds - very characteristic....they have had some really wonderful players...


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## Josquin13

I'm crazy about the unique sound of the woodwind section of the Leipzig Gewandhaus Orchestra, at least in the early days of Kurt Masur's tenure as their conductor. I first encountered the Leipzigers' delicate, highly refined woodwind playing on recordings: such as their absolutely brilliant & inspired flute playing in closing passages of Brahms "Variations on a theme by Haydn" (my favorite version), and in Masur's 1st Beethoven and Brahms symphony cycles (& especially in Beethoven where the woodwinds are featured so prominently!), and then live in concert, where it was almost heaven to listen to. (& where I confirmed that their unique sound wasn't due to the way the orchestra was recorded by Philips, as one friend had suggested to me).

I've heard many other orchestras since, but have never heard another orchestra with a woodwind section that sounded quite the same. So I can only assume that it comes from some older Leipzig tradition, and perhaps one that extends back to Felix Mendelssohn's years with the orchestra. Although I did notice that after Masur had been in New York for a number of years the New York Philharmonic woodwinds began to take on a somewhat similar sound.

Sadly, today, the Gewandhaus woodwinds don't sound quite like it used to, at least on the recordings I've heard in recent years (& certainly not on Chailly's Beethoven cycle)--that is, after Masur's departure, and all the intervening years of foreign conductors, such as Chailly, Blomstedt and now Nelsons exerting their influence over the orchestra's sound. Nor does the woodwind section of the Staatskapelle Dresden have a similar sound either, as an example of another great East German orchestra (despite that the Staatskapelle is historically my favorite orchestra, overall). So it may well be a woodwind sound that Masur cultivated in his orchestra, or one that he had inherited, which has become modified due to a succession of conductors with different expectations for how the orchestra should sound. Or, it may be that the way woodwind playing is taught at the Leipzig Conservatory--where orchestra members are traditionally on the faculty--has changed or become modified due to the passing of many of the orchestra's older players, i.e., the ones that had ties back to Masur's early days in Leipzig and before. (Or, I suppose it could be both reasons.)

Anyway, I will buy Masur's early Philips recordings just to hear the Leipzig woodwind section (even if it's music I'm not overly interested in). Their playing is that beautiful to me.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00005RW55/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o02_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

https://www.amazon.com/Brahms-Sym-N...=1516045712&sr=1-4&keywords=eloquence+leipzig


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## Vasks

I once got to hear a Czech orchestra (I can't recall which) that was on tour in the US. They had the most distinctive woodwind sonority. What fun to listen to a rarer type of tone production.


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## Heck148

Vasks said:


> I once got to hear a Czech orchestra (I can't recall which) that was on tour in the US. They had the most distinctive woodwind sonority. What fun to listen to a rarer type of tone production.


Yup - the Czechs have some marvelous players - very unique sound, very expressive....I also like the WW section on the old Mravinsky/LenPO recordings....the Russians most certainly had their own approach...
It's amazing how well they were able to function, given the restraints of the Communist regime, and their difficulty in procuring decent instruments, and decent accessories, most esp cane for the 2ble reeds and clarinets...this was true for all of the Iron Curtain country orchestras...procuring good cane from France [Mediterranean region] was extremely difficult for them [Soviet economic commissars were not generally very adequate judges of cane quality!! lol!!] ....It became very standard for 2ble reed players of orchestras visiting Russia, Iron Curtain countries to bring along a lot of Good cane, to give to the Russian area players as gifts, or as trade-offs for all sorts of stuff....the cane was most highly treasured by the Russians....
When the USSR Symphony visited Rochester, we met with the bassoon section and gave them some pieces of Glotin [French] cane - they were some psyched!! very happy!!


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## Vasks

Heck148 said:


> When the USSR Symphony visited Rochester, we met with the bassoon section and gave them some pieces of Glotin [French] cane - they were some psyched!! very happy!!


Sorry that this goes slightly off, but just a few months ago a friend of mine went with a instrumental group to Cuba and they handed out tons of free valve oil, that the Cuban trumpet players were "psyched" to receive.


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## fluteman

Heck148 said:


> As a long time professional performer, and listener of music, I've of course, developed favorites among orchestras, conductors, etc, etc...
> I don't remember a thread pertaining to favorite orchestral woodwind sections - so I thought I'd start one off ....also - it's fun for music lovers to learn the names, the people, who are performing on their favorite recordings...
> Generally, it takes some time, years, many seasons, many rehearsals, concerts for a woodwind section to really develop - the ensemble, the intonation, the balance, the timing...consequently, most of my favorite sections were pretty constant over many years - members would come and go, but usually only one at a time so the new member had a very solid ensemble in which to find his/her new place...
> 
> I went to the Eastman School, in Rochester, NY - and this was very strong Chicago, New York, Cleveland territory - at least it was then, and I believe it still is. that style of performance was very highly stressed - big sound, lots of projection, rhythmic accuracy and precision, solid "nail every note"
> technique. _Flamboyant_ isn't quite the word I seek, _assertive_ is probably better...
> 
> one thing I love about these sections is, not only the superior virtuosity of the principals, but the very solid, outstanding work of the section players, the 2nds, 3rds, associates, etc....they produce a big _choir_- sound when needed - not top heavy, with an over-abundance of treble - flute, oboe, high clarinet, with weak lower voices...we get plenty of top, but the bass and tenor are very full and resonant as well - lots of clarinet, bassoon sonority, and the high voices sitting on top, rather like the icing on a cake...
> 
> My favorite orchestra woodwind sections predictably, conform to this concept -
> 
> NYPO - esp in the late 40s-50s - some great, molto expressive musicians - Wummer [Fl], Harold Gomberg [ob] Simeon Bellison, Robt. McGinnis [cl]. Wm Polisi [Bssn] Jas Chambers [ Hn] - this section eventually changed with new personnel, but it maintained its full sound, and robust approach - J. Baker [Fl], Drucker [Cl] Zegler [Bssn]
> 
> ChicagoSO - Reiner years, thru Martinon, Solti - Donald Peck [fl], Ray Still [ob], Clark Brody [Cl], Leonard Sharrow [Bn] P. Farkas, [Hn] - this section too, evolved, but remained most excellent - Peck and Still remained constant for many, many years [into the 90s], Larry Combs [Cl], Willard Elliot [bn] Dale Clevenger [Hn]
> 
> Cleveland Orchestra - under Szell - Maurice Sharp [Fl], Marc Lifschey [ob], Robt Marcellus [Cl], George Goslee [bn], Myron Bloom [Hn]...this wonderful section stayed very constant under Szell, except Lifschey left and John Mack joined in 1965....
> 
> on all NYPO, CSO, ClevelandO recordings, we can hear the splendid work of these superb sections.
> 
> Philadelphia had superb woodwinds with Stokowski and Ormandy, and deserve mention - not my favorite sound quality, but the ensemble was always impeccable....everyone from the same school, or style of performance.... We used to go up to Saratoga PAC each summer, where the PhilaOPrch members would give Woodwind 5tet concerts - always wonderful - standard repertoire, they tossed it off effortlessly...


I agree entirely, and was lucky enough to grow up in New York and go to school in Chicago and so hear many of the players you mention in person. In my Chicago days it was Peck, Still, Combs, Elliot and Clevenger -- and a young John Bruce Yeh, also a superb clarinet player. Clevenger and his wife were close friends of my aunt and uncle, so I got to meet and have dinner with them on one occasion. I also heard him give a superb solo recital. And Julius Baker and Stanley Drucker were legends in New York (I'm not old enough to have heard Gomberg in person). I made it a point to go to one of Drucker's last New York Philharmonic concerts. He played in the clarinet section from 1948 until 2009, and was the principal from 1960. Fortunately, their playing lives on in numerous records.


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