# Synching up



## MarkW (Feb 16, 2015)

Today's odd question:

It is not unknown for an occasional soloist (usually an opera singer, but I suppose it has happened in concerti) to accidentally slip a cog and get a measure or two, or a phrase, ahead of the orchestra. How do they meet up again? How does a conductor signal what to do? Do players sense this on their own and self-correct? How long does it take? How audible is it, given that many listeners are only sort of paying that kind of attention?

Personal experiences welcome.


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## UniversalTuringMachine (Jul 4, 2020)

MarkW said:


> Today's odd question:
> 
> It is not unknown for an occasional soloist (usually an opera singer, but I suppose it has happened in concerti) to accidentally slip a cog and get a measure or two, or a phrase, ahead of the orchestra. How do they meet up again? How does a conductor signal what to do? Do players sense this on their own and self-correct? How long does it take? How audible is it, given that many listeners are only sort of paying that kind of attention?
> 
> Personal experiences welcome.


I haven't seen this happening in my concert-going experiences, world-class soloists could be a bit ahead (if they are really good) but he/she only needs to cue the conductor or the orchestra to catch up (by looking at them). In opera, there are difficult sections in which the singer could be a bit behind but a world-class orchestra can adjust for that.

It's definitely audible if you are a veteran listener and are familiar with the work and have an internal beat in your mind. It's important to listen to high-quality recordings in which the rapport is almost perfect to understand how intuitive that feels like. You also have to pay close attention to what's going on (it's very important) but you have to feel the beats first.

I am aware that the Chopin competition winner Yundi Li made a blunder in South Korea when playing Chopin's 1st Concerto and they had to restart the entire thing. It was a disaster but I think this is extremely rare.


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

This happens at times, esp with Broadway shows, or opera excerpt programs....
"Follow the soloist," is the prime directive....if he/she skips 2 measures, or leaves out lines, then everybody must adjust....the conductor is responsible, but often the musicians will fix it themselves...but you "go with the stick"....if you still have 2 measures to go before entering, and the conductor gives you a definite (frantic!! lol!!) cue, then you come in, regardless of your count..."follow the soloist".
Years ago, i wad playing the traveling production of "1776"....the lead playing John Adams, didn't read music, he learned everything by rote....measures and beats of rest were most interesting!! It varied every performance....we eventually set up a betting pool on our favorite rest spot - how many beats will it be tonight?? Usually averaged between 4 -7, but sometimes only 2 or 3, and occasionally 8 or 9...we would just watch the conductor for the cue, he was on it...


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## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

This happens and woe to the conductor who is unable to fix it...and do it without notice or making it worse. As it so happened, in last year's aborted season I participated in two concerts where the soloist - both pianists - messed up big time. The first was in the Rachmaninoff 2nd concerto. The conductor - an absolute virtuoso with the stick and having years of experience in the opera pit - very cleanly stopped the orchestra, let the pianist get it together and then skillfully brought the orchestra in at the next tutti. Only people who really knew the concerto well would have noticed much of a problem, although for orchestra players it sure raises your blood pressure. In the finale, a bassoonist (not me!) missed an entrance. The clarinets decided to go with the bassoon rather than the conductor and the rest of the orchestra - big mistake. But maestro worked magic and knowing the score quite well was able to cue sections and get it back together soon.

Then there was the Tchaikovsky concerto no 1 conducted by a conductor who despite his degree is essentially incompetent. He never bothered to learn the music. Listening to recordings is NOT score study. Every junction when the pianist stops and it's supposed to dovetail to the orchestra was managed wrong.The first two movements were abysmal, only to be worsened in the finale. From the start it was not together. At some point the orchestra just collectively stopped watching and used our earsand eyes to follow the pianist and finish. If there's any good thing about this Covid-19 epidemic it's that this conductor is now unemployed!

The funniest concert I recall was doing the Rachmaninoff Paganini Rhapsody (another pianist). In one of the piano solo sections the player got lost and entered a time loop. She keep playing the same passage over and over, not knowing how it changes to get on to the next. The conductor stood there, biting his lip, doing everything he could to not laugh. I felt bad for her. How would this end? And then a miracle occurred. I kid you not, she was saved by the bell - the fire alarm went off. A moth or something got into a light, burned and triggered the alarm system. After the fire dept left and 30 minutes later we got together on stage, she started the 18 variation and we ended together.


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## UniversalTuringMachine (Jul 4, 2020)

mbhaub said:


> The funniest concert I recall was doing the Rachmaninoff Paganini Rhapsody (another pianist). In one of the piano solo sections the player got lost and entered a time loop. She keep playing the same passage over and over, not knowing how it changes to get on to the next. The conductor stood there, biting his lip, doing everything he could to not laugh. I felt bad for her. How would this end? And then a miracle occurred. I kid you not, she was saved by the bell - the fire alarm went off. A moth or something got into a light, burned and triggered the alarm system. After the fire dept left and 30 minutes later we got together on stage, she started the 18 variation and we ended together.


That's an insane story.


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

A funny story - didn't involve "synching up" so much as a major memory lapse in concert, and remarkable recovery by the soloist.
We were playing a Gilbert & Sullivan concert of scenes and excerpts...our conductor had conducted at D'Oyly Carte, and had engaged John Reed as one of the soloists....Reed, a longtime G&S specialist was something of a legend....these scenes were semi-staged, with the actors performing in stage, the orchestra seated stage rear, behind the action.
During the Mikado segment, Reed is singing his solo number, suddenly forgets the words...no gap, no stutter, no hesitation....at first we thought he was singing nonsense, but no, he was ad- libbing lyrics from a song later in the program!! It all fit in perfectly, made no real sense, but no one in the audience knew the difference...his solo finished, Reed retired to rear stage, back to audience, facing orchestra members...he smiles, mutters "they should fire that old f*rt, he's always forgetting his lines" (chortle, chortle) we're all laughing quietly.....
Later in the program, he arrives at the previous ad-libbed song....beautifully sings the lyrics in the correct place....of course, looks over at us with a wry smile and a twinkle in his eye, and winks...conspirators sharing in the plot!!
It was outstanding, and hilarious, smooth as silk, audience had no clue!!


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## annaw (May 4, 2019)

UniversalTuringMachine said:


> I haven't seen this happening in my concert-going experiences, world-class soloists could be a bit ahead (if they are really good) but he/she only needs to cue the conductor or the orchestra to catch up (by looking at them). *In opera, there are difficult sections in which the singer could be a bit behind but a world-class orchestra can adjust for that.*


There's always Windgassen and his forging songs .


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## UniversalTuringMachine (Jul 4, 2020)

annaw said:


> There's always Windgassen and his forging songs .


His hammering was so off beats in Krauss 53 the orchestra had to slow down (but it didn't help).

That's the only thing that Jay Hunter Morris is objectively better than Windgassen.


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## MarkW (Feb 16, 2015)

Heck148 said:


> A funny story - didn't involve "synching up" so much as a major memory lapse in concert, and remarkable recovery by the soloist.
> We were playing a Gilbert & Sullivan concert of scenes and excerpts...our conductor had conducted at D'Oyly Carte, and had engaged John Reed as one of the soloists....Reed, a longtime G&S specialist was something of a legend....these scenes were semi-staged, with the actors performing in stage, the orchestra seated stage rear, behind the action.
> During the Mikado segment, Reed is singing his solo number, suddenly forgets the words...no gap, no stutter, no hesitation....at first we thought he was singing nonsense, but no, he was ad- libbing lyrics from a song later in the program!! It all fit in perfectly, made no real sense, but no one in the audience knew the difference...his solo finished, Reed retired to rear stage, back to audience, facing orchestra members...he smiles, mutters "they should fire that old f*rt, he's always forgetting his lines" (chortle, chortle) we're all laughing quietly.....
> Later in the program, he arrives at the previous ad-libbed song....beautifully sings the lyrics in the correct place....of course, looks over at us with a wry smile and a twinkle in his eye, and winks...conspirators sharing in the plot!!
> It was outstanding, and hilarious, smooth as silk, audience had no clue!!


A wonderful story. I remember Reed in most of the old D'Oyly Carte recordings, (also Martyn Greene in his breakaway company) and that perfectly fits the roles they play.


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## pianozach (May 21, 2018)

It happens to me all the time.

As an accompanist/conductor singers often get off. My job as a solo accompanist is to follow, which I can do probably 99% of the time. Whether the singer gets ahead or behind, skips to the last verse, repeats the first verse, it doesn't matter - you go where they go.

This is a more challenging thing when you have an ensemble of musicians trying to follow. But they'll usually follow the pianist as the pianist follows the singer. If they can figure it out.

I currently conducting Pirates of Penzance - although I'm conducting the SINGERS as a backing track is played. If they get ahead my gestures get large to get their attention, and I'll use hand signals, often the talk-to-the-hand gesture, which in this case means "wait".


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## SONNET CLV (May 31, 2014)

Coming from the theatre, I've witnessed many a glitch with actors (and sometimes tech crew) that throw astride a scene. Directors are generally helpless in such cases, because unlike the orchestra conductor still in place at his podium and still in charge, the stage director may not even be present for a performance. Good stage managers prove helpful, certainly, but often actors can catch the flow and go with it in a variety of ways, sometimes to the surprise (if not delight) of the director.

I recall sound and lighting cues that were missed or happened early or late, and once an actor jumping several pages with an early entrance, and the play continuing on as if nothing had happened. (Most of an audience doesn't know the script and generally won't know a glitch has occurred if the performers don't announce it. I used to advise actors that if they "mess up" just don't advertise it to the audience; rather, try to recover and move forward.)

On of the most memorable "fixes" came in a comedy I directed with an amateur group where the actor, a young man with great wit and talent, forgot his lines in the middle of a scene. Rather than attempt to conceal the same from the audience and find a way to move on, he raised his arms, called for a "stop" in the action, told the other players on stage to freeze in place, rushed off stage, returned a moment later with a script in hand, flipped through a couple of pages, reading, then tossed the script into the wings, stepped back to his spot, clapped his hands, called the players back to "action", and continued through the scene. It was absolutely hilarious (and fortunately in the middle of a comedy) and I suggested to the player after the show that he might consider putting that bit of shtick into the remaining performances, which he did, all to the delight of the audience each night. (Admittedly, I might not have been so amused had this happened at the climax of the Sophocles _Oedipus_ or Shakespeare's _Hamlet_, two dark tragedies.)

I think that all of us who come out of "live performance" endeavors have a tolerance for and understanding of such errors and that it lends one more component to the _humanness_ of the arts. And do we really want that to change?


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## SONNET CLV (May 31, 2014)

mbhaub said:


> The funniest concert I recall was doing the Rachmaninoff Paganini Rhapsody (another pianist). In one of the piano solo sections the player got lost and entered a time loop. She keep playing the same passage over and over, not knowing how it changes to get on to the next. The conductor stood there, biting his lip, doing everything he could to not laugh. I felt bad for her. How would this end? And then a miracle occurred. I kid you not, she was saved by the bell - the fire alarm went off. *A moth or something got into a light, burned and triggered the alarm system. *After the fire dept left and 30 minutes later we got together on stage, she started the 18 variation and we ended together.


Is there evidence here that insects may have a consciousness for music? That a moth could love Rach's Rhapsody so much as to rise to heroic heights and sacrifice himself for the good of a performance?

Bravo! Bravo!

I'm going outside right now to pull the plug on my porch bug zapper.


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## pianozach (May 21, 2018)

SONNET CLV said:


> Coming from the theatre, I've witnessed many a glitch with actors (and sometimes tech crew) that throw astride a scene. Directors are generally helpless in such cases, because unlike the orchestra conductor still in place at his podium and still in charge, the stage director may not even be present for a performance. Good stage managers prove helpful, certainly, but often actors can catch the flow and go with it in a variety of ways, sometimes to the surprise (if not delight) of the director.
> 
> I recall sound and lighting cues that were missed or happened early or late, and once an actor jumping several pages with an early entrance, and the play continuing on as if nothing had happened. (Most of an audience doesn't know the script and generally won't know a glitch has occurred if the performers don't announce it. I used to advise actors that if they "mess up" just don't advertise it to the audience; rather, try to recover and move forward.) . . . .
> 
> . . . . I think that all of us who come out of "live performance" endeavors have a tolerance for and understanding of such errors and that it lends one more component to the _humanness_ of the arts. And do we really want that to change?


I've been involved in theatre for most of my life, usually musical theatre, and I've a suitcase full of stories of errors/fixes during live performances.

One of my favorites involves my mom in a musical melodrama version of *Sweeney Todd* (not the brilliant Sondheim version).

The story was mostly the same though. Early on in the show the not-very-responsive Sweeney has just been told by Mrs Lovett (my mom) that during his absence his wife took poison. She's then begins to tell the story of how the judge that sent Sweeney away because he coveted Sweeney's wife manipulated her into attending a party.

The whole cast comes on as party guests and re-enacts the party where Judge Turpin rapes her.

Only one time the cast was waiting in the wings, and were chatting amongst themselves, and didn't hear their cue to enter. So they didn't.

And my mom, in character, just kept making up lines about this and that, the slop in the streets, Mrs. Mooney and HER pie shop, and on and on for a monologue of several minutes, until the cast finally realized that they left her stranded telling stories to Sweeney, who couldn't help at all, as all he could do is listen.


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## larold (Jul 20, 2017)

I have soloed many times with accompanists. My director-accompanist always tells me to simply keep going and he will catch up to me. That always worked until a time came when pages of my vocal score stuck together. I hummed a few bars until I could get the music open again, then restarted when I left off. There was a moment of confusion but short-lived.

I think generally speaking whomever has the lead, in my case the singer, should lead and the other(s) catch up.

However ... I once heard a soloist in the St. Saens violin concerto No. 3 forget about 5 bars of the music near the end when he quit playing (he wasn't using a score.) The orchestra and conductor kept going and the soloist came back in at some point. So I doubt my formula would work with an entire orchestra or choir backing me in song.


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## pianozach (May 21, 2018)

larold said:


> I have soloed many times with accompanists. My director-accompanist always tells me to simply keep going and he will catch up to me. That always worked until a time came when pages of my vocal score stuck together. I hummed a few bars until I could get the music open again, then restarted when I left off. There was a moment of confusion but short-lived.
> 
> I think generally speaking whomever has the lead, in my case the singer, should lead and the other(s) catch up.


Yes, generally.

In the case of you simply deciding to go back to a random spot in the score infers that you think the accompanist is psychic.

Us accompanists have a lot of strategies we can use to stay with you, but we cannot follow you when you do _*that*_.

I have a billion accompanist stories. Singers skipping verses, repeating verses, stuck in loops, forgotten lyrics, etc.

I've accompanied professionals and rank amateurs. I've played hundreds, probably thousands of individual auditions, where I get a minute to go over previously unseen sheet music, then get to play it for their audition.

Some singers learn their songs incorrectly. Others learn their song from a recording, but bring an arrangement that is NOT that arrangement. Sometimes adjusting is simple, other times practically impossible.

Case in point: Andrew Lloyd Webber's song Memory from Cats was, for a very long time, a popular piece for female singers to bring to an audition. The song lilts along in 6/8, until a curious thing happens. _"In the lamplight, the withered leaves collect at my feet"_ - the timing changes for _*"withered leaves co-"*_ to a practical 4/6 for that particular measure.

Here, from the Original London Cast recording (prior to the Broadway premiere), at roughly 0:21






Well, the score doesn't change the time signature, but writes it as either 4 quarters or 4 eighths in a bracket, although by convention, it's not sung that way.

Here's the Broadway cast's Betty Buckley singing it rubato as true quadriplets (at 0:26) in 6/8.






Probably half the time singers are more familiar with some pop version of the song, where either the singer, arranger, or producer has decided that the measure will be too confusing for listeners, and simplify it to quarter-eighth-quarter-eighth, presumably so you can continue swaying back and forth without interruption.


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