# Gotterdammerung vs Yevgeny Onegin - which should we see live?



## kiwioperafan (Mar 26, 2013)

I am new to this site and would really appreciate the advice of some opera aficionados! I am an opera fan but I have primarily listened to/attended Italian operas to date. I am in New Zealand and haven't had the opportunity to see many operas live!

My husband & I are in Europe in late May and will be in Northern Italy for some of that time. I am really keen to see an opera while we are there and based on our travel dates have narrowed it down to either Gotterdammerung at La Scala, or Yevgeny Onegin at the Turin opera house. For some reason I can't find an Italian opera on in Italy (at least, where we are going).

Any thoughts on these operas - positives/negatives etc - and/or the opera houses in question would be gratefully received! I have very little knowledge of German & Russian opera, though in general I enjoy Tchaikovsky. My husband is not a huge opera buff (however it is our honeymoon and I have convinced him it will be a great experience...) so I am a little concerned that Gotterdammerung's length may be a bit overwhelming for him. However I'm also aware that going to La Scala would be a great experience...

I know a lot of it just comes down to personal preference but I would still like to hear some opinions!


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## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

I wouldn't recommend someone who's not familiar with Wagner or the Ring Cycle to jump into Gotterdammerung. Die Walkure works better as a stand alone opera than the others, according to general consensus, and yes, the length could easily become an issue.


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## RobertoDevereux (Feb 12, 2013)

I'd agree with Mahlerian - especially if your husband is not that much into opera. Having said that, if you were to explore Wagner, you have to see it live on stage, and La Scala is an experience in its own right, so I wouldn't discount that as an option. Onegin is so lyric and melodic that you can play it on a CD/DVD, and you'd still enjoy it. 

May I suggest another option though? Splurge and see both!  

After all, you'll be in the homeland of opera, and Goterdaemmerung and Onegin couldn't be further apart, so your introduction to the genre would be as rich as it gets! 

RD


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

Gotterdammerung
its spectacular.


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## Cavaradossi (Aug 2, 2012)

Tough call! The good news is either will be a magnificent musical experience. Onegin is every bit as romantic as you'd expect from Tchaikovsky. And it is your honeymoon after all.

Gotterdamerung as you may know is 4th of 4 in the Ring cycle. So there's aloooot of backstory leading up to it. It's a love story too in its way, but an unconventional and existential one. If you do go, it would be helpful, perhaps essential, to read thru a synopsis of the previous three installments. Keep in mind too that La Scala has translation screens on every seat with English as an option. Not sure if Torino has that available. Listening to untranslated Russian for several hours could make for a long evening too.

I've been to La Scala twice now, and the theater and the surrounding area live up to their glamorous reputation. Be very careful with the seats you get though. Many of the rear seats in the boxes along the sides and the gallery have a very limited view or sometimes virtually no view at all of the stage.

I've not been to Teatro Regio Torino but in spite of its long history, its latest incarnation was rebuilt in 1976 in a modern style. Based on the images I find online, it looks to offer superior comfort and visibility at the expense of historical character.

I should mention too that with Daniel Barenboim conducting at La Scala, it will be superlative Wagner - perhaps the best to be found anywhere.

Not sure if you've checked this site, but it's been helpful to me on previous trips:
http://www.operabase.com/coords.cgi?lang=en&map=it

Late May would put you just in time for the Maggio Musicale in Florence, but they are unhelpfully offering Benjamin Britten then. Looks like Genoa's gotta lotta Traviata in May though!


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Find out if they have subtitles available in English. This could make a huge difference. I much prefer Wagner over Tchaikovsky and Die Got... has lots of great music.


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## suteetat (Feb 25, 2013)

I was at la Scala but it was a long time ago, back then supertitles for German opera was only in Italian so that was not much help. Personally I would pick Gotterdamerung especially with Barenboim. However, for a non opera fan, it may be rather difficult to sit through 6 hours ++ of Wagner. But it is la Scala, so it would be well worth visiting even just for the place.

After saying that, Turin's Teatro Regio is modern but very small and cozy. The acoustic is excellent and even with lesser singers, you usually can hear them much better and the setting is very intimate. It would be a much more comfortable evening than going through Gotterdamerung for someone who does not care much about opera. However, if your husband like the movie "Excalibur" there will be some familiar music from the movie in Gotterdamerung and he may like it better.


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

First of all hello and welcome from the other opera fan in New Zealand (well, that's how I feel sometimes). As you say there is not much live opera here.

Others have made good points. 

I would pick Eugene Onegin as a good first opera. - accessible, lyrical and a good length, story is easy to understand.
Gotterdammerung could be a bit overwhelming. 

But you have a much starrier cast and conductor for Gotterdammerung, and I can guarantee you will never see it here in NZ. (although you probably won't see Onegin either as it was done a couple of years ago)


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

*Götterdämmerung*


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

We have a few die-hard Wagner fans on this forum, as you might have gathered.


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

mamascarlatti said:


> We have a few die-hard Wagner fans on this forum, as you might have gathered.


So die-hard, it is possible they do not realize how truly comic / camp that photo is


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## dionisio (Jul 30, 2012)

I'd advise the same as the majority, Yevgeny Onegin.


If you don't know Wagner or haven't been exposed to, keep yourself away from him.

If you already know Wagner, the answer is simple: Yes (if you like Wagner) or No (if you don't). There's no middle ground here.


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## SiegendesLicht (Mar 4, 2012)

It's not even a choice: Goetterdaemmerung. If you've never heard it before, just try typing in the name on YouTube, listening to the excerpts which come up first and see whether you will not be overwhelmed. Plus, I think your husband will enjoy the story of a young hero and his (sometimes equally heroic) beloved much more than a girly sentimental 19-century love affair, even if it is a little long. Just tell him you're going to see the grandfather of all high fantasy. 

I would recommend getting to know the plot (and the story of three other parts of the Ring) beforehand.


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## TxllxT (Mar 2, 2011)

I would let the choice depend on the cast, orchestra & conductor. Or on the weather: if the present cold persists, go for the Götter, if spring really springs in full bloom go for Onegin...


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## MAuer (Feb 6, 2011)

La Scala is one of the world's great opera houses, and the Wagner opera will have an all-star cast. That said, _Götterdämmerung_ is about 5 1/2 hours long. You may want to mention that to your husband and see how he reacts.


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

SiegendesLicht said:


> It's not even a choice: Goetterdaemmerung. If you've never heard it before, just try typing in the name on YouTube, listening to the excerpts which come up first and see whether you will not be overwhelmed. Plus, I think your husband will enjoy the story of a young hero and his (sometimes equally heroic) beloved much more than a girly sentimental 19-century love affair, even if it is a little long. Just tell him you're going to see the grandfather of all high fantasy.
> 
> I would recommend getting to know the plot (and the story of three other parts of the Ring) beforehand.


Not sure I would call Onegin sentimental. After all the hero coldly rejects the girl, kills his best friend and then is rejected by the girl. Not exactly chick lit.

As for Siegfried the so-called hero, I still fail to see anything in the least bit heroic about him. Self-centred and gullible, yes. Don't get me wrong, I enjoy the Ring (though it took me 20 years to start liking Wagner), but I have to take the plot with a massive pinch of salt as soon as Siegfried swaggers in.


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## kiwioperafan (Mar 26, 2013)

Well, if the lady in the photo is turning up in Gotterdammerung, I'm sold! 

Thanks everyone for all of the advice and comments, they are really helpful! I think at this stage I am leaning towards Gotterdammerung...sounds as if the conductor, cast, La Scala etc would all combine to make it an amazing experience. I checked out the details of the performances and Yevgeny Ongein has only Italian subtitles. Now I will have to work on getting my husband to agree...I am going with him to a car race while we are on holiday though, so I think it's a fair trade! I would like to go to Onegin as well, as it does sound beautiful, but that might be pushing it as we are going to a concert in Italy too...

Thanks also for the advice on seating at La Scala, I have researched this a bit and I can get us tickets in the front row of a box that is 3 rows up in the corner of the horseshoe (so not on the side but not directly opposite the stage either...). Alternatively for the same price (pretty expensive I must say!) I can get tickets in the stalls, towards the rear of the theatre though. Any thoughts on which would be better? 

Great to see at least one other Kiwi on this forum!! Are you going to any operas in NZ this year? What are your opinions of the quality of opera in NZ?


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## sharik (Jan 23, 2013)

kiwioperafan said:


> Gotterdammerung vs Yevgeny Onegin - which should we see live?


_The Queen Of Spades_ - kinda mix of them both.


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

kiwioperafan said:


> Great to see at least one other Kiwi on this forum!! Are you going to any operas in NZ this year? What are your opinions of the quality of opera in NZ?


I'm based in Auckland so I'm reluctantly going to Butterfly (taking my 10-year-old) and more enthusiastically going to Flying Dutchman. Plus go to a lot of Met broadcasts.

I think that while opera here struggles on gallantly, there are very few productions and what there is is bums on seats warhorses on the whole, inevitably with competent but not exciting singers. Of course it must be near-impossible to persuade the top singers to come here - but if you compare our programming with Norway which has the same population, they are much more adventurous. I never meet anyone who is really enthusiastic about opera here.

How about you?


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## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

PetrB said:


> So die-hard, it is possible they do not realize how truly comic / camp that photo is


Well, and just look at her expression. She is friggin' serious.


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## JCarmel (Feb 3, 2013)

I'd be very interested, mamascarlatti to hear your impressions after seeing the Butterfly? I managed to get out of going at the very last minute with a friend....due to inclement weather causing us to call-the-whole-thing-off. Please could you 'Report Back?'


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## Cavaradossi (Aug 2, 2012)

kiwioperafan said:


> Thanks also for the advice on seating at La Scala, I have researched this a bit and I can get us tickets in the front row of a box that is 3 rows up in the corner of the horseshoe (so not on the side but not directly opposite the stage either...). Alternatively for the same price (pretty expensive I must say!) I can get tickets in the stalls, towards the rear of the theatre though. Any thoughts on which would be better?


I actually sat in the stalls (Row M) for Turandot in 2011 and the second row of box 8 (near the corner of the horseshoe) on the 3rd level for Rigoletto last year. Partly it depends on how adventurous you are. The boxes are more the "18th century" experience kind of unique to La Scala. But, as the La Scala website advises, the boxes require "active participation", i.e. a bit of leaning and contorting, even from the front row. Something to consider for a 5-1/2 hr show, plus you'll have the people in the rear seats standing and leaning over you as far as decorum allows.

Think of the boxes as a closet lined in red velvet that you share with four other people. Luxurious, but a closet nonetheless. Fortunately the four Italian women I shared the box with were good sports (and rather petite!). Below is a link to some photos from that location. The La Scala website includes photos of view from various locations, but it can be tough to navigate.

http://www.talkclassical.com/20967-opera-trips-8.html#post385376

The stalls were absolutely fine too. There are only ~20 rows, so you're never that far back. A bit more conventional but just as magical. Yes, those ticket prices...ouch! But looking back it was totally worth it for a once (or twice) in a lifetime experience.


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