# Round One: Samson et Dalilah: Amour Vien: Callas and PonselleYH



## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Hopefully I will redeem myself with this new contest after the Il Pirata fiasco. Two sopranos sing one of my favorite mezzo arias and one that requires a strong chest register. I have no idea what that YH was after Ponselle's name.


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

Seems somehow unfair to listen to one with just piano accompaniment (which is not exactly my favorite instrument to show a singer's voice.)
I also felt that Ponselle actually sounded like a man in the last phrase of the aria which didn't appeal to me.
Callas' rendition was more to my liking.


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## MAS (Apr 15, 2015)

Some people might just pick Mme. Ponselle because she is Mme. Ponselle. The voice is, as always, incredible. At the time of the recording, at Villa Pace, it had a lower center than before, like a contralto. It is a great voice still. 

Not so with Callas at that point in her career - the voice had thinned, the top sometimes precarious. Callas sometimes had little control of what would come out of her throat on a given day. On this day, she was in good voice for the period. 

I asked myself to which recording would I listen more often (or at all…); the answer was Callas. What can I say? I’m a Callas aficionado, not Ponselle’s.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Thanks Nina and Mas for your good insights. Ponselle retired at just 40 years of age about the time Flagstad began to sing Wagner and recorded a number of opera arias with her at the piano in many instances at her house when she was maybe around her mid fifties. Unlike my pal Nina I much prefer the androgenous lower register but I am admittedly odd. Personally I am glad to have these later recordings when the technology was much better. I like Mas's comments. I wish Callas had recorded this in her early 30's when the voice was bigger. Still, it is wonderful. Next round some much beloved mezzos.


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## MAS (Apr 15, 2015)

Seattleoperafan said:


> Thanks Nina and Mas for your good insights. Ponselle retired at just 40 years of age about the time Flagstad began to sing Wagner and recorded a number of opera arias with her at the piano in many instances at her house when she was maybe around her mid fifties. Unlike my pal Nina I much prefer the androgenous lower register but I am admittedly odd. Personally I am glad to have these later recordings when the technology was much better. I like Mas's comments. I wish Callas had recorded this in her early 30's when the voice was bigger. Still, it is wonderful. Next round some much beloved mezzos.


I'm sure Callas wouldn't have considered singing mezzo arias in her heyday. Walter Legge tried to get her to sing the mezzo part in the Giulini recording of Verdi's *Messa da requiem*, but she declined. As Schwarzkopf tells, she wouldn't sing _seconda donna_! I don't blame her, she was the  _prima donna_! And this was in the 1960s, when her voice was not in good condition.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

MAS said:


> I'm sure Callas wouldn't have considered singing mezzo arias in her heyday. Walter Legge tried to get her to sing the mezzo part in the Giulini recording of Verdi's *Messa da requiem*, but she declined. As Schwarzkopf tells, she wouldn't sing _seconda donna_! I don't blame her, she was the  _prima donna_! And this was in the 1960s, when her voice was not in good condition.


Dalila would have been one of the few operas where the mezzo was prima donna I believe you could say. She could have done it but it wouldn't make sense. You are correct. Thanks again for your comments!!!!


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

It may be that if Ponselle were singing with orchestra I would find this a tougher choice. I believe Ponselle is accompanying herself in these at-home recordings from her retirement years, and there are remarkable performances among them. Except for the loss of some high notes the voice is in magnificent shape, and the musicianship is always superb. But based on what we have here I'm going to go with Callas, despite a bit of difficulty at both ends of her range. Her musicianship is virtually infallible; no one could shape this aria better, and once we adjust to the absence of the plush mezzo sound we tend to expect of a Dalila, we hear yet another in a large repertoire of characterizations that feel just right (Dalila's other aria on this recital disc, "Printemps qui commence," is if anything even finer). 

Ponselle said that had she not decided to retire when she did she would have continued as a mezzo, something Callas refused to do. As it is we have some wonderful singing of mezzo repertoire from both of them.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

As others have pointed out, this isn't exactly a fair comparison. Ponselle is recorded in her home accompanying herself at the piano, whereas Callas is in a studio with full orchestra, which already puts her at an advantage. Ponselle had retired, Callas had not, though she had already severely curtailed the amount of performances she gave and would retire from the stage completely four years later.

Ponselle's voice is miraculously preserved here (though she dodges the high note on _je le brave_) and her lower register is amazing. She almost sounds like a tenor. Whether she also sounds like a Dalila is a moot point.

Callas, on the other hand, sounds both dangerous and sexy. True, the voice is showing signs of stress at both ends of its range, but she still has enough to do justice to the piece. Her diction is virtually flawless and you feel she understands every word she is singing. Note how she observes the parenthesis in the line _Fais que, vaincu par mon adresse, Samson soit enchaîné demain._, something most singers ignore. It's interesting to note that Callas was Beecham's original choice for his recording of *Carmen*, but she turned him down, saying her French was not yet good enough. By 1961 she was living in Paris and fluent in the language, though she spoke it with a slight accent.

Callas recorded both _Printemps qui commence_ and _Mon coeur s'ouvre à ta voix_ at the same time, though the latter was only released after her death, as she never approved it. Listening to it now, it's hard to understand her objections, though Legge said she had trouble sustaining the low tessitura of the Dalila arias. Incidentally, on the strength of these three arias alone, Alan Blyth in _Opera on Record_ nominates Callas for his ideal *Samson et Dalila* cast. I can but agree with him. Most mezzo Dalilas end up sounding matronly, when the character should have a purringly dangerous sexuality. One critic described Callas's _Printemps qui commence_ as a young tigress flexing its claws in the sun. In the aria above, the tigress bares her teeth.

Callas it is.


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

Woodduck said:


> It may be that if Ponselle were singing with orchestra I would find this a tougher choice. I believe Ponselle is accompanying herself in these at-home recordings from her retirement years, and there are remarkable performances among them. Except for the loss of some high notes the voice is in magnificent shape, and the musicianship is always superb. But based on what we have here I'm going to go with Callas, despite a bit of difficulty at both ends of her range. Her musicianship is virtually infallible; no one could shape this aria better, and once we adjust to the absence of the plush mezzo sound we tend to expect of a Dalila, we hear yet another in a large repertoire of characterizations that feel just right (Dalila's other aria on this recital disc, "Printemps qui commence," is if anything even finer).
> 
> Ponselle said that had she not decided to retire when she did she would have continued as a mezzo, something Callas refused to do. As it is we have some wonderful singing of mezzo repertoire from both of them.


You've done it again! I couldn't have put it better myself, so I won't and will just click on the dot for Callas.

N.


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## MAS (Apr 15, 2015)

I’ve noticed that there are more votes than of those who comment - sub rosa voters!


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

MAS said:


> I've noticed that there are more votes than of those who comment - _sub rosa _ voters!


Either sub rosa or sub maria.


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## MAS (Apr 15, 2015)

Woodduck said:


> Either sub rosa or sub maria.


Beautiful, I didn't notice the pun potential! :tiphat:


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## peeknocker (Feb 14, 2012)

Neither can hold a candle to Hélène Bouvier in this role, though I base that assessment entirely on personal preference and without any technical knowledge.


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## MAS (Apr 15, 2015)

peeknocker said:


> Neither can hold a candle to Hélène Bouvier in this role, though I base that assessment entirely on personal preference and without any technical knowledge.


About 47:20 for the aria. Is Bouvier a mezzo? She doesn't use much chest voice or much vocal inflections. A rather phlegmatic Dalila, in my opinion. But it was nice hearing her in some of the rôle. Her French is good. :lol:


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## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

nina foresti said:


> Seems somehow unfair to listen to one with just piano accompaniment (which is not exactly my favorite instrument to show a singer's voice.)
> *I also felt that Ponselle actually sounded like a man in the last phrase of the aria which didn't appeal to me.*
> Callas' rendition was more to my liking.


I thought so too. This was a much later recording when she was in her 50s, and at that time, she could sound like a tenor when she felt the urge. I guess the difference is, I heard and and thought "whoa! COOL!  ". Displays of vocal power and richness impress me even when they are out of place, but I can definitely understand where you're coming from.


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## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

Callas wins this one for me. She sings this aria like a sexy witch, capturing both the seductiveness AND the nastiness in one go.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

BalalaikaBoy said:


> I thought so too. This was a much later recording when she was in her 50s, and at that time, she could sound like a tenor when she felt the urge. I guess the difference is, I heard and and thought "whoa! COOL!  ". Displays of vocal power and richness impress me even when they are out of place, but I can definitely understand where you're coming from.


Can you feel a hug across 5000 miles?


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## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

Seattleoperafan said:


> Can you feel a hug across 5000 miles?


if your name is anything to go by, it's only about 3000. I live in South Carolina


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## MAS (Apr 15, 2015)

Hugs can even travel abroad


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## Azol (Jan 25, 2015)

Ponselle's voice is as impressive as ever but this recording seems to be taken past her prime, a heavy-handed account (although the commanding tone of _Samson, recherchant ma présence_ is immediately arresting). Callas is much more of a seductress (and a dangerous one too) so there goes my vote!


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Azol said:


> Ponselle's voice is as impressive as ever but *this recording seems to be taken past her prime,* a heavy-handed account (although the commanding tone of _Samson, recherchant ma présence_ is immediately arresting). Callas is much more of a seductress (and a dangerous one too) so there goes my vote!


It's one of many recordings made in Ponselle's home in the 1950s, when she was in her 50s and retired from opera. She accompanies herself at the piano.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Woodduck said:


> It's one of many recordings made in Ponselle's home in the 1950s, when she was in her 50s and retired from opera. She accompanies herself at the piano.


Pavarotti sang with her in her 80's and said the voice was still there in it's glorious beauty! It was always dark of timbre but got darker with age it seemed.


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## Revitalized Classics (Oct 31, 2018)

Seattleoperafan said:


> Pavarotti sang with her in her 80's and said the voice was still there in it's glorious beauty! It was always dark of timbre but got darker with age it seemed.


I find it amazing that they never tried to record her in stereo: even if it meant taking stereo equipment out to the Villa Pace in the late 50s. I know even the Villa Pace recordings being made in her home was a bit of a throwback - it's the sort of thing Patti did in her castle in Wales 50 years earlier - but I'd be curious to know if record companies pestered Ponselle over the years.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Revitalized Classics said:


> I find it amazing that they never tried to record her in stereo: even if it meant taking stereo equipment out to the Villa Pace in the late 50s. I know even the Villa Pace recordings being made in her home was a bit of a throwback - it's the sort of thing Patti did in her castle in Wales 50 years earlier - but I'd be curious to know if record companies pestered Ponselle over the years.


They should have. The Villa Pace recordings contain a wide range of song repertoire as well as some opera, and there are beautiful performances among them. She and Gerald Moore could have given us Schubert, French chansons, American songs and more. I find it hard to believe that she would have refused that sort of project the way Garbo refused to return to acting after the war. I'm not aware that Ponselle was reclusive or shy, even though she did suffer from nerves during her onstage career.


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## MAS (Apr 15, 2015)

Woodduck said:


> They should have. The Villa Pace recordings contain a wide range of song repertoire as well as some opera, and there are beautiful performances among them. She and Gerald Moore could have given us Schubert, French chansons, American songs and more. I find it hard to believe that she would have refused that sort of project the way Garbo refused to return to acting after the war. I'm not aware that Ponselle was reclusive or shy, even though she did suffer from nerves during her onstage career.


I thought the Villa Pace recordings were professionally recorded.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

MAS said:


> I thought the Villa Pace recordings were professionally recorded.


I believe they were.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Woodduck said:


> I believe they were.


This is from an interview with Ponselle:
Those LPs were made right here at Villa Pace, correct?

Yes, in the foyer, where the high ceiling and the walls and tile floor give the voice such resonance. They set up the microphones there. They brought in a seven-foot piano for [accompanist] Igor Chichagov, because it would have been too much trouble to move my concert Baldwin piano into the foyer. And do you know that the man who oversaw those recordings was one of the men I worked with at Victor in Camden? His name was Mr. Maitsch. It was such a happy moment when he came here and we got to work together again.

The master recordings for those LPs were made on magnetic tape. You had had some experience with having your singing tape-recorded by Lloyd Garrison, who recorded private albums that you sent to friends. How different was it working the RCA's technicians and their state-of-the-art equipment?

Well, the sound quality of the RCA equipment was leagues ahead of what Lloyd had used. He had an ordinary [Webcor] tape recorder, but he did have a very good microphone that he bought for our private recordings. But the RCA microphones were the ones they used in their studios, so of course they were the top microphones.
She only played the piano on Amuri Amuri

.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Seattleoperafan said:


> This is from an interview with Ponselle:
> Those LPs were made right here at Villa Pace, correct?
> 
> Yes, in the foyer, where the high ceiling and the walls and tile floor give the voice such resonance. They set up the microphones there. They brought in a seven-foot piano for [accompanist] Igor Chichagov, because it would have been too much trouble to move my concert Baldwin piano into the foyer. And do you know that the man who oversaw those recordings was one of the men I worked with at Victor in Camden? His name was Mr. Maitsch. It was such a happy moment when he came here and we got to work together again.
> ...


Thanks for all that info. I've always wondered how anyone could sing so well while playing the piano.


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