# Are there any untrained composers?



## LordBlackudder (Nov 13, 2010)

Are there any that had no contact with music theory but just gave it a go?


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## Klavierspieler (Jul 16, 2011)

Never mind.


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## Cygnenoir (Dec 21, 2011)

I am! I've had _some_ music theory, but on a very basic level, and piano lessons some years ago. But I would really like to study composition some time in the future. Now it's like driving a car without having taken enough lessons. I know how to use the pedals and turn the wheel, if you know what I mean, and it gives you a good kick!


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## StevenOBrien (Jun 27, 2011)

Not really what you're looking for, and I may be entirely wrong about this, but one interesting thing I've heard often is that Joseph Haydn was almost entirely self taught when it came to composition, in that he had no teachers. I know he did study Fux Counterpoint religiously though. Can anyone confirm this?


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

Berlioz, Elgar, Schoenberg and George Gershwin all had no real 'formal' study, but Schoenberg, for example, taught himself and did tutor counterpoint under, I believe, Zemlinsky. Gershwin took composition very briefly, perhaps a few months, but otherwise was also self-taught.

The pop songwriter is a category where I think you will find many more composers who became some sort of success who also did it without barely any 'training.'

Almost all such stories include a modest to extensive amount of the composer looking into theory / comp on their own, so your unequipped, 'just have a go at it' premise is nearly blown out of the water.


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

I am almost entirely self-taught. I do study Fux's Counterpoint religiously.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

PetrB said:


> Berlioz, Elgar, Schoenberg and George Gershwin all had no real 'formal' study, but Schoenberg, for example, taught himself and did tutor counterpoint under, I believe, Zemlinsky. Gershwin took composition very briefly, perhaps a few months, but otherwise was also self-taught...


I think Gershwin famously asked Ravel for lessons, and Ravel then asked Gershwin his annual income. After Gershwin gave the answer, Ravel said Gershwin should give him lessons, not the other way round!

I think also that Schoenberg went regularly to Gershwin's house in Beverly Hills to give him lessons, but more often than not they ended up in the tennis court playing tennis (or was it ping-pong?). Something like that.



> ...
> The pop songwriter is a category where I think you will find many more composers who became some sort of success who also did it without barely any 'training.'


It varies. Irving Berlin I think was a natural, he could only play the black keys on a piano. He had someone write down his tunes for him. So I assume he couldn't write music (so not trained, obviously?). I think Noel Coward was similar. But closer to today, a fair amount of pop song writers, and also rockers and jazz musos have been trained to some extent. The big examples I can think of are in the older generation, Dave Brubeck and Burt Bacharach.


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

How can _any_ composer (pop or classical) become a success without knowing anything about the elements of music and composition? Especially harmony and counterpoint? I'm sure all successful pop songwriters of today would know a good deal about voice leading.


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## StevenOBrien (Jun 27, 2011)

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> How can _any_ composer (pop or classical) become a success without knowing anything about the elements of music and composition? Especially harmony and counterpoint? I'm sure all successful pop songwriters of today would know a good deal about voice leading.


I know for a fact that Bieber spent many years studying strict counterpoint! ...or was that Biber?


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

StevenOBrien said:


> I know for a fact that Bieber spent many years studying strict counterpoint! ...or was that Biber?


I've played the Battalia on viola and in the second movement I think Heinrich Biber breaks several rules. The reason mainly being that none of the melodies actually work together in counterpoint! :lol:

I've never heard any music composed by Justin Bieber but from what I have heard of him, he must be one of the worst musicians and most hated person on the Internet.


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## Kopachris (May 31, 2010)

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> I've never heard any music composed by Justin Bieber but from what I have heard of him, he must be one of the worst musicians and most hated person on the Internet.


So? He's still a success. Remember, for most popular music, the music is just a carrier for the words. It's the lyrics that really matter, and most of that is just "Hey, this phrase sounds cool. Hey, so does this one! Let's put them together!"


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> ...
> I've never heard any music composed by Justin Bieber but from what I have heard of him, he must be one of the worst musicians and most hated person on the Internet.


Poor Justin, when he came here he got something thrown at him on stage. I think it was rotten fruit or something. About as bad treatment as Schoenberg got! But Mr. Bieber has a huge following of teenage girls, I'm sure that more than makes up for such drawbacks. I myself only remember reading about him, and not actually hearing him. Same as some people are before they judge Schoenberg, maybe? Just stirring the pot guys.


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

Sid James said:


> Poor Justin, when he came here he got something thrown at him on stage. I think it was rotten fruit or something. About as bad treatment as Schoenberg got! But Mr. Bieber has a huge following of teenage girls, I'm sure that more than makes up for such drawbacks. I myself only remember reading about him, and not actually hearing him. Same as some people are before they judge Schoenberg, maybe? Just stirring the pot guys.


I wish something was thrown at me when I perform my music. I would throw it right back.


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## Abracadabra (Jun 6, 2012)

Music theory is just a technical crutch for people who don't know how to write good music naturally.


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## KRoad (Jun 1, 2012)

Er, well... I've written rather a lot of tunes, released two works commercially (about to release my third shortly), had my work "stolen" and used for commercial purposes and most recently had one of my tunes used for a promo of a TV documentary about the fall of the Berlin Wall. My formal "training" remains limited to the reading and playing through of a few jazz theory books focusing mainly on improvisation on the modes of the major scale.

So since this discussion has wandered into genres other than classical music, I think, no, formal training is not necessary to write convincing music. Without formal training in the rules of grammar most "educated", middle class people know how to string a sentence together, ergo we can all probably write a tune or two, if we are so inclined.

For example: http://soundclick.com/share.cfm?id=11454578


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## Arsakes (Feb 20, 2012)

Justin Bieber lol

Seen him on TV in my cousins house. This teen is a blight and an idol for teenage girls (I could be a singer better than him!) and shows the crapiness of current pop music.
If I ever want to listen to pop music I listen to traditional 40s 50s pop.


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## Guest (Jun 9, 2012)

PetrB said:


> Berlioz... had no real 'formal' study.


Odd how often this crops up, still.

All those years at the Paris Conservatoire (one of the more prestigious music conservatories in the world) count for naught? The private lessons with Lesueur?

Not to say that his informal training and his prodigious talents count for naught, either. But yes, Berlioz certainly did have a fair amount of conservatory (formal) training.


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## LordBlackudder (Nov 13, 2010)

looks like there's hope for us all than.


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