# Round Two: "Ma se m'è forza perderti. Corelli, Bergonzi



## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Un Ballo in Maschera: Forse la soglia... Ma se m´è forza perderti · Franco Corelli · Orchestra RAI Torino · Alfredo Simonetto Franco Corelli Vol. 1 Belcanto & Verdi


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## MAS (Apr 15, 2015)

These two tenors were my first loves - I knew Bergonzi before I discovered Corelli (a friend had Callas’s second *Tosca*). In many ways they are opposites; one heroic, one poetic. Bergonzi, always more elegant, even if Verdian to the core, too. Corelli was always the voice of the Verdi and Puccini heroes. It’s there in the very sound of his voice. I know of his falls from grace, it’s part and parcel of being Corelli. He is at his most impressive and most unbridled in front of an audience (his audience). Is it crazy to want to vote for both, as different as they are?


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

MAS said:


> These two tenors were my first loves - I knew Bergonzi before I discovered Corelli (a friend had Callas’s second *Tosca*). In many ways they are opposites; one heroic, one poetic. Bergonzi, always more elegant, even if Verdian to the core, too. Corelli was always the voice of the Verdi and Puccini heroes. It’s there in the very sound of his voice. I know of his falls from grace, it’s part and parcel of him. He is at his most impressive and most unbridled in front of an audience (his audience). Is it crazy to want to vote for both, as different as they are?


Don't think less of me but I didn't know Bergonzi so much but when I listened to the two of them together I am usually Corelli all the way but wanted to vote for both. I made a mistake and you can vote for both. Precognition?


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## MAS (Apr 15, 2015)

Seattleoperafan said:


> Don't think less of me but I didn't know Bergonzi so much but when I listened to the two of them together I am usually Corelli all the way but wanted to vote for both. I will try to change it so you can.


No, thanks, that’s not necessary. Truth be told, I was ready to vote Corelli before I even listened. *Ballo *is not one of Corelli operas; I don’t recall if he ever sang the role. The recording is from his early period.


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## BBSVK (10 mo ago)

OMG, so very uncanny ! Both of them. Did I mention my idea of the correct interpretation is based on the singing of Peter Dvorský  ? Aragall was like Dvorský with a booster, but these guys sound somehow affectated... A little bit like a parody on a tenor. Yes, I know they are more famous, and I know Corelli from Norma with Callas. Corelli inserts a lot of "H" sounds into his vowels. (He does so in Norma as well, but somehow I was more OK with it there). Bergonzi uses that "H" very rarely, but is also more boring. Sorry if I am being unreasonable, it is just that my expectations were really high (based on the names). I am also a little tired, because it is late. But I believe the things I have heard now will be there also tomorrow. I choose Corelli.


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

I'm glad you've gone with the early Corelli recording as that's my favourite of his two studio versions. I also like Bergonzi, but only know his other recording of the opera with Price.

I adore this aria and adore Corelli so that gets an irrestible thumbs up from me. However, this wasn't his best role and his oversinging in some of the recit even annoys this devoted Franco fan. His sining of the arias hits the spot though.

Bergonzi will be more refined, perhaps too much so. However, I'm more bothered by the echoey acoustic and Solti's conducting than his style over substance.

Bergonzi's is a superb performance by any standard and Corelli's lack of taste is particularly damaging when playing a King (or English Governor). I'm giving it to Bergonzi.

N.


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## ScottK (Dec 23, 2021)

Well....we've taken a qualitative leap from the first pairing! Bergonzi in a signature role and Corelli in a role that, for some reason....I believe this is true, don't quote me......he never sang! It's come up and I never got a definitive answer but I think its true...I'll see if other posts mention the fact.

Franco does, I think, quite well in material that is in one way right for him...full-blooded italian tenor music....and in another way not so much. Aside from just enjoying his clarion sound, this aria doesn't really call for it and sometimes it detracts....Riccardo is anything but heroic! I'm guessing this is early Corelli...Preiser records, small beat in the voice, not looking for diminuendos. Aside from some scoopiness the recit is nice and generally he keeps the emotions under control. And for the aria, it's Franco Corelli singing Verdi so if you like italian tenor singing this should be pretty satisfying.

But Carlo Bergonzi singing Verdi is something else! The firm beauty of his musical line is something I've never heard Franco achieve. (he's got his own assets!) and rarely anyone else. Decca records him too far away so the impact of the voice, after hearing Corelli on top of the mic, is not going to grab you. But those lines! Corelli is famous for his high notes but Bergonzi's ascent through the upper middle is so easy and propulsive and in phrase after phrase that's the pay dirt if you want music and not just voice. I love them both but in this music it's Bergonzi by a clear margin.


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## ScottK (Dec 23, 2021)

I was going nuts trying to figure out why adding up the percentages brought us to a total of 114.2 %!!! Then I realized that its because you voted twice John! See what happens from having your cake and eating it too???


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## MAS (Apr 15, 2015)

BBSVK said:


> OMG, so very uncanny ! Both of them. Did I mention my idea of the correct interpretation is based on the singing of Peter Dvorský  ? Aragall was like Dvorský with a booster, but these guys sound somehow affectated... A little bit like a parody on a tenor. Yes, I know they are more famous, and I know Corelli from Norma with Callas. Corelli inserts a lot of "H" sounds into his vowels. (He does so in Norma as well, but somehow I was more OK with it there). Bergonzi uses that "H" very rarely, but is also more boring. Sorry if I am being unreasonable, it is just that my expectations were really high (based on the names). I am also a little tired, because it is late. But I believe the things I have heard now will be there also tomorrow. I choose Corelli.


Aspirates (the “H”) was seemingly more acceptable or more common among Italian men than in the rest of the world. Women were usually not affected by the practice. Though I think that the more elegant or more conventionally trained singers eschew it. It‘s a tool to which a singer might use to help him get from a note to the next one in difficult intervals or to make it more comfortable vocally (a lazy habit perhaps).


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Bergonzi often pleases me but doesn't thrill me. Corelli sometimes thrills but too often annoys. If I had to name my top ten tenors neither would make the list. They're both true to form here, and I can't help wishing that Corelli would sing more like Bergonzi so that I wouldn't have to vote for the latter. Needless to say, it's ungrateful to complain when both of these guys would probably outsing anyone on stage today.


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## BBSVK (10 mo ago)

MAS said:


> Aspirates (the “H”) was seemingly more acceptable or more common among Italian men than in the rest of the world. Women were usually not affected by the practice. Though I think that the more elegant or more conventionally trained singers eschew it. It‘s a tool to which a singer might use to help him get from a note to the next one in difficult intervals or to make it more comfortable vocally (a lazy habit perhaps).


Is there any reason why Mario del Monaco didn't do it ?


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## MAS (Apr 15, 2015)

BBSVK said:


> Is there any reason why Mario del Monaco didn't do it ?


It is not necessary to use aspirates. I don’t know Del Monaco’s work, and I haven’t paid attention to his singing, but if he doesn’t use them it means he is consciously singing without them or he doesn’t need to use them.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

As so often, Corelli just sounds too lacrymose and overwrought for me and in this case it seems completely wrong for the character. I also don't like the way he sobs and aspirates. Bergonzi aspirates occasionally too, but he's nowhere near as bad and I find his singing much more stylish. The role is more of a natural for him in any case. Too bad he's saddled with Solti's awful conducting. What on earth was he up to, especially after the aria proper was over? I haven't heard a single Solti Verdi that I've liked and this was no exception. Still, I'll vote for Bergonzi here, whilst noting he's better served by Leinsdorf in the recording with Leontyne Price.


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## BBSVK (10 mo ago)

Seattleoperafan said:


> Who rocks your boat?


I just looked up the meanings of "rock the boat" and "float someone's boat" in the online dictionary


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

Two kings of the opera world. Two singers with superb voices.
There is no denying the power and emotion that Corelli brings to arias. Listening to Corelli is like an exercise in excitement. He's that kind of singer.
But then there is the singer who delivers a sincerity of sound with a gentleness and sadness that cannot be denied. When Bergonzi sings there is a beauty which gets to your soul that is absolutely tenable. He's got my vote.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

BBSVK said:


> I just looked up the meanings of "rock the boat" and "float someone's boat" in the online dictionary


You shamed me! I meant to float not rock. It took a non English speaker to point out my error. The SHAME.😮


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## Op.123 (Mar 25, 2013)

Not my favourite repertoire for Corelli and Bergonzi is a tenor I'm not overly fond of. I went with Corelli in the end for the voice and for the slightly more involved performance.


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## MAS (Apr 15, 2015)

I figured Bergonzi would have it, as this is part of his core repertoire, just as it isn’t Corelli’s. Bergonzi was always known for his stylish singing (of Verdi among others) and _bel canto _leanings. His pudgy figure didn’t allow him to play heroes believably, though he sang them anyway - and his Alvaro in *Forza *was my first recording of that warhorse and played it to death afternoons while in college (the other constant was the Gobbi/Callas *Rigoletto*).


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## BBSVK (10 mo ago)

I am happy with this Corelli. What is the matter ? Is it earlier or later recording, in Italy versus outside of Italy, or whatever ?


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

BBSVK said:


> I am happy with this Corelli. What is the matter ? Is it earlier or later recording, in Italy versus outside of Italy, or whatever ?


When Corelli started out in Italy he recorded for the small Italian Cetra label (up until 1956-8). Once he had become a star he was signed up with EMI (but also recorded for Decca, especially later on). The recording used in the contest is his earlier Cetra one and the one you have found is his later EMI one (if the cover is correct).

N.


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## BBSVK (10 mo ago)

The Conte said:


> When Corelli started out in Italy he recorded for the small Italian Cetra label (up until 1956-8). Once he had become a star he was signed up with EMI (but also recorded for Decca, especially later on). The recording used in the contest is his earlier Cetra one and the one you have found is his later EMI one (if the cover is correct).
> 
> N.


I start to consider it a rule of thumb that the voice acting becomes more appropriate with age.


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

BBSVK said:


> I start to consider it a rule of thumb that the voice acting becomes more appropriate with age.


Do you mean singers' vocal acting gets better as they progress in their career or that it's better the closer to the age of the character the singer is?

N.


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## BBSVK (10 mo ago)

The Conte said:


> Do you mean singers' vocal acting gets better as they progress in their career or that it's better the closer to the age of the character the singer is?
> 
> N.


Good question. I meant "as they progress in their career". I didn't consider the other possibility.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

BBSVK said:


> Good question. I meant "as they progress in their career". I didn't consider the other possibility.


Certainly it was the case with Sutherland and Nilsson. I am not a specialist on Callas but I seem to remember it being pointed out that though the voice was greatly deteriorated that her insight into the characters improved with age as well, even though she was quite insightful early on.


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