# The First Big Late Romantic Symphony



## neoshredder

What do you consider the first big Late Romantic Symphony? Here is a list of Symphonies from 1840-1879. I'm thinking Liszt's Symphony in 1857 might be the first big one. For the first big Early Romantic Symphony. I'm thinking Schubert's 8th. 

Berlioz: - "Grande symphonie funèbre et triomphale" (1840)
Mendelssohn - Symphony 2 (1840)
Schumann - Symphony 1 (1841)
Mendelssohn - Symphony 3 (1842)
Berwald - Symphony 3 (1845)
Schumann - Symphony 2 (1846)
Farrenc - Symphony 3 (1847)
Schumann Symphony 3 (1850)
Spohr Symphony 9 (1850)
Schumann Symphony 4 (1851)
Gade Symphony 5 (1852)
Bizet Symphony in C (1854)
Gounod Symphony 1 in D (1855)
Liszt "Dante" Symphony (1857)
Gottschalk Symphony #1 (1859)
Raff: Symphony #1 "To the Fatherland" (1861)
Dvorak: Symphony #1 ''The Bells of Zlonice'' (1865)
Bruckner: Symphony #1 (1865-66)
Rubinstein: Symphony #6 (1866)
Tchaikovsky: Symphony #1 (1866)
Raff: Symphony #3 "In the Forest" (1869)
Raff Symphony 5 (1872)
Tchaikovsky Symphony #2 "Little Russian" (1872)
Bruckner Symphony #2 (1872)
Bruckner Symphony #3 (1873)
Lalo Symphonie Espagnole (1874)
Bruckner Symphony 4 (1874)
Tchaikovsky Symphony #3 "Polish" (1875)
Bruckner Symphony 5 (1876)
Brahms Symphony 1 (1876)
Borodin Symphony 2 (1876)
Brahms Symphony 2 (1877)
Tchaikovsky Symphony 4 (1878)


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## Cosmos

Idk what exactly counts as "late Romantic" since most of these seem to be early or mid-Romantic, but I'd nominate Brahms' First (even though I'm not a big fan of Brahms)

Or, I'd say Bruckner's 3rd or 4th. Or Liszt's Dante since that's the oldest of the group.


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## neoshredder

I prefer the categories being Early Romanticism, (Schubert, Schumann, Mendelssohn), Late Romanticism (Dvorak, Tchaikovsky, Mahler), and Post-Romanticism (Prokofiev, Shostakovich, and Poulenc). I don't think of it being a Mid-Romanticism category.


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## ptr

You have to define "BIG", Schubert's eighth in my mind (despite being his best orchestral work) do not have the girth for a big symphony at under 30 minutes... The first in my I can think of that approach "Big" is Symphonie fantastique! It has all the characteristics of a late romantic grand symphony, program and all.

/ptr


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## Mahlerian

In my book, late romanticism is not a time period but a movement that was begun in response to Wagner's operas. I'd say Dvorak's and Bruckner's 1st symphonies are both firmly in this category. Liszt's Faust Symphony is also an interesting contender, as an inspiration to Wagner. Liszt was often put together with the "Neudeutsch" school.

Prokofiev, Shostakovich, and Poulenc are all modernist, not Romantic at all.


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## realdealblues

The first one Chronologically that catches my eye is probably Schumann 4.

But out of the list the one I personally think of as "The Big Romantic" is Bruckner 4.


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## Mahlerian

realdealblues said:


> But out of the list the one I personally think of as "The Big Romantic" is Bruckner 4.


Bruckner's 3rd in its original version is, in terms of number of bars, the longest symphony he wrote.


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## SiegendesLicht

It's not really first, but for me the Big Romantic is Mahler's 3rd. Very big, and very romantic too.


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## realdealblues

Mahlerian said:


> Bruckner's 3rd in its original version is, in terms of number of bars, the longest symphony he wrote.


Interesting. I did not know that.

I'm still trying to listen to all the different recorded "editions" of Bruckner's Symphonies. It amazes me how many are out there.


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## moody

Lalo's Symphonie Espagnole isn't a symphony but a work for solo violinist and orchestra--more like a concerto.
Berlioz' Symphonie Fantastique was earlier than the Symphonie Funebre by ten years 1830.
Gottschalk's symphony No.1 "A Night In the Tropics" ,is certainly not a grand work but really an extended rhapsody on dance themes---and it's only eighteen minutes long.
So by your reckoning Berlioz wins with the Symphonie Fantastique.


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## Mahlerian

realdealblues said:


> Interesting. I did not know that.


...wait, scratch that. I just remembered that the fact was that the first movement of the 3rd symphony, in its original version, was the _longest movement_ Bruckner wrote.


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## davinci

For the category _Late Romantic Big Symphony_, Bruckner 3 certainly fits as one of the first. But Bruckner took to cutting it up after it's disastrous first performance, so only the revised versions were heard for many years. The original version if performed may have made more of an impact in that time period and today.


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## Op.123

neoshredder said:


> What do you consider the first big Late Romantic Symphony? Here is a list of Symphonies from 1840-1879. I'm thinking Liszt's Symphony in 1857 might be the first big one. For the first big Early Romantic Symphony. I'm thinking Schubert's 8th.
> 
> Berlioz: - "Grande symphonie funèbre et triomphale" (1840)
> Mendelssohn - Symphony 2 (1840)
> Schumann - Symphony 1 (1841)
> Mendelssohn - Symphony 3 (1842)
> Berwald - Symphony 3 (1845)
> Schumann - Symphony 2 (1846)
> Farrenc - Symphony 3 (1847)
> Schumann Symphony 3 (1850)
> Spohr Symphony 9 (1850)
> Schumann Symphony 4 (1851)
> Gade Symphony 5 (1852)
> Bizet Symphony in C (1854)
> Gounod Symphony 1 in D (1855)
> Liszt "Dante" Symphony (1857)
> Gottschalk Symphony #1 (1859)
> Raff: Symphony #1 "To the Fatherland" (1861)
> Dvorak: Symphony #1 ''The Bells of Zlonice'' (1865)
> Bruckner: Symphony #1 (1865-66)
> Rubinstein: Symphony #6 (1866)
> Tchaikovsky: Symphony #1 (1866)
> Raff: Symphony #3 "In the Forest" (1869)
> Raff Symphony 5 (1872)
> Tchaikovsky Symphony #2 "Little Russian" (1872)
> Bruckner Symphony #2 (1872)
> Bruckner Symphony #3 (1873)
> Lalo Symphonie Espagnole (1874)
> Bruckner Symphony 4 (1874)
> Tchaikovsky Symphony #3 "Polish" (1875)
> Bruckner Symphony 5 (1876)
> Brahms Symphony 1 (1876)
> Borodin Symphony 2 (1876)
> Brahms Symphony 2 (1877)
> Tchaikovsky Symphony 4 (1878)


I would say Schumann's or Mendelssohn's 3rd.


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## Mahlerian

davinci said:


> For the category _Late Romantic Big Symphony_, Bruckner 3 certainly fits as one of the first. But Bruckner took to cutting it up after it's disastrous first performance, so only the revised versions were heard for many years. The original version if performed may have made more of an impact in that time period and today.


Actually, the version performed at that premiere was already severely cut from the initial versions, which were submitted to and rejected by the Vienna Philharmonic (like the first version of the 4th).


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## neoshredder

Burroughs said:


> I would say Schumann's or Mendelssohn's 3rd.


Schumann and Mendelssohn sound like Early Romantics to me. One step in the Classical Era and one step in the Romantic Era. Beethoven could be included but I feel he is slightly more into the Classical Era than those 2 imo. To me the Late Romantic Era started with Dvorak and Bruckner. Definitely Late Romantic Composers. And I guess Liszt sounds that way as well. Raff a lesser Late Romantic Composer.


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## Weston

If by big we mean the size of the orchestra and length combined, it doesn't get much bigger than Mahler. But neoshredder asks which was first. I don't think there was a first. It's a gradual evolution toward super-sizing. It could be argued that Beethoven started the trend with his No. 3.


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## neoshredder

I think of Late Romanticism as an increase emphasis on dynamics, chromaticism, and brass. That and just the vibe of the late 18th Century which felt different from the early part. More drama. Kind of glamourous as my interpretation of it. A grand experience.


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## Radames

Brahms 1st Symphony of 1876.


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## moody

Burroughs said:


> I would say Schumann's or Mendelssohn's 3rd.


But they are not really big or late romantic are they ?


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## Op.123

neoshredder said:


> Schumann and Mendelssohn sound like Early Romantics to me. One step in the Classical Era and one step in the Romantic Era. Beethoven could be included but I feel he is slightly more into the Classical Era than those 2 imo. To me the Late Romantic Era started with Dvorak and Bruckner. Definitely Late Romantic Composers. And I guess Liszt sounds that way as well. Raff a lesser Late Romantic Composer.


Liszt, I would also consider an early romantic as he was born at the same time as these two.


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## Op.123

moody said:


> But they are not really big or late romantic are they ?


If you are meaning "big" as in a large work then no. But if you mean "big" as in in important and well known works then yes. And if the latter I don't consider Liszt's work of 1857 to be big either.


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## moody

Burroughs said:


> If you are meaning "big" as in a large work then no. But if you mean "big" as in in important and well known works then yes. And if the latter I don't consider Liszt's work of 1857 to be big either.


I think he means big in size and the Liszt work isn't really a symphony.


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## davinci

moody said:


> I think he means big in size and the Liszt work isn't really a symphony.


My take on this thread is that the OP is looking for big in size and an important work.


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## Radames

davinci said:


> My take on this thread is that the OP is looking for big in size and an important work.


That's why I said Brahms' 1st. I guess some Bruckner stuff came out a few years before the Brahms 1st, but I am going to stick with Brahms.


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde

Weston said:


> If by big we mean the size of the orchestra and length combined, it doesn't get much bigger than Mahler. But neoshredder asks which was first. I don't think there was a first. It's a gradual evolution toward super-sizing. It could be argued that Beethoven started the trend with his No. 3.


Supersize supersize it's the American way









What American symphonists were there in the late 19th century?


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