# Listener advice for chamber strings?



## Weston

I'm curious why is it that when I listen to some string quartets, trios and so forth sometimes one instrument will sound a little flat. Usually it's a violin. It's very, very subtle, just barely perceptible. 

Is there some kind of just intonation tuning you naturally fall into with bowed strings with no piano accompaniment? Or is it just that in a larger ensemble such as an orchestra all the little minor differences add up to a chorus effect and are therefore less noticeable?

Am I just listening to ensembles that don't quite hit the notes spot on, or have I gone a little tone deaf?

I notice this most prominently in romantic or classic period works. I don't think I'm listening to some kind of HIP tuning.

Actually it boggles my mind anyone could come that close to a note without frets anyway.


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## Ukko

I sometimes have that 'problem' with recordings from the mid-20th C and before. Don't know for sure what's going on, but maybe it's a portamento effect, and I'm not used to it. Other than that wild surmise, I dunno.


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## MaestroViolinist

My grandmother always tells me when playing in a string group the leader (and probably everyone else) should always play a little sharper. So maybe they don't know that fact. :lol:


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## Novelette

Weston, I have heard it in live performances. Recently, when hearing Brahms' G Major String Quintet performed, I noticed that the first violinist was a microtone flat on the E string. For me, it was painfully obvious. =\

I've heard it in recordings before, it drives me mad. You're not going tone deaf, I'm sure. It's not as uncommon as we might like to think.


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## tdc

Weston said:


> I'm curious why is it that when I listen to some string quartets, trios and so forth sometimes one instrument will sound a little flat. Usually it's a violin. It's very, very subtle, just barely perceptible.
> 
> Is there some kind of just intonation tuning you naturally fall into with bowed strings with no piano accompaniment? Or is it just that in a larger ensemble such as an orchestra all the little minor differences add up to a chorus effect and are therefore less noticeable?
> 
> Am I just listening to ensembles that don't quite hit the notes spot on, or have I gone a little tone deaf?
> 
> I notice this most prominently in romantic or classic period works. I don't think I'm listening to some kind of HIP tuning.
> 
> Actually it boggles my mind anyone could come that close to a note without frets anyway.


This is interesting, do you think you could dig up any examples of this phenomena you describe on youtube? I'd like to hear for myself.


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## Ingélou

Indeed, it is interesting. I've noticed that in congregational unaccompanied singing, after several verses the pitch has become lower - the leader started it a bit high but by the end of the hymn, it's quite comfortable to sing. And once, when I was in a school choir singing a short harmonised piece unaccompanied, we thought we were okay but the audience winced as we became flatter and more out of sync with each other. Maybe if you have no outside reference point, like a piano, you don't know that you're out of tune & gradually everyone round you adapts? A human psychological or aural habit?


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## Head_case

In flute playing, this commonly happens when the embouchure weakens as time goes by and it's all too easy to slip into blowing flat (lazier) than in pitch.



> Actually it boggles my mind anyone could come that close to a note without frets anyway.


It's no different than not having to look at a piano keyboard when playing. Basically, the foundation for imaging where imaginary frets or keys are, forms that basis to do away with visual keys or frets. Of course, the scale won't be as linear


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## Hausmusik

tdc said:


> This is interesting, do you think you could dig up any examples of this phenomena you describe on youtube? I'd like to hear for myself.


I recently posted & discussed (what I believe to be) an example of this here:
http://www.talkclassical.com/23858-beethoven-string-quartets-2.html#post422110


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## Weston

Hausmusik said:


> I recently posted & discussed (what I believe to be) an example of this here:
> http://www.talkclassical.com/23858-beethoven-string-quartets-2.html#post422110


Why, yes. Maybe at about the 1:00 minute mark is where I start to hear it. Sometimes what I am perceiving is more pronounced than that. I'll try to find some examples, but now I don't remember what prompted the question.


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## hreichgott

Sounds like there are two different things being discussed:

1.) starting slightly below pitch then sliding/glissando-ing up into a note for stylistic reasons (what's happening in Hausmusik's Brahms recording)
2.) mistakenly changing pitch due to inability to stay on one pitch (congregational singing, the school choir, flute players getting tired).

I get tired of the string glissando after a while too, but I think it's important to distinguish between mistakes and stylistic choices, whether I agree with the stylistic choices or not.


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