# Artur Schnabel



## Hausmusik

I have waited a long time to begin exploring the recorded legacy of Artur Schnabel, and I've decided to take the plunge. I have read a lot of praise for Schnabel, as a musician-first-pianist-second who had a grasp of musical structure that was second to none and who was willing to sacrifice technical accuracy for its sake. I'd love to learn more about Schnabel from those of you who know his work. What do you love about Schnabel (and what are you reservations, if it comes to that)? What are his finest recordings? 

(Forgive me if there is already a Schnabel thread--I couldn't find one through a forum search.)


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## DavidA

I managed to get Schnabel's complete Beethoven piano sonatas on a very cheap download off Amazon for about £3.99.

When you listen to them you hear a very original mind on Beethoven. They are certainly not straight performances or performances without their quirks. Accuracy is also not a strong point but then he was recording in an era before patching was possible. 

Funny Schnabel was a great pioneer, playing Beethoven and Schubert particularly. Unfortunately there are those two almost view his recordings as some sort of holy grail not to be criticised or superseded. However it must be admitted that others have played them as well if not better than him in certain sonatas, building on what he accomplished.


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## KenOC

The Schnabel sonatas are available for free on the web...can't remember the URL, sorry. I'll look if anybody wants.


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## Ravndal

It is an incredible amount of Schnabel on spotify. Looks like all his recordings is there.


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## Hausmusik

Ken: Yes, please!


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## Ukko

DavidA said:


> Funny Schnabel was a great pioneer, playing Beethoven and Schubert particularly. Unfortunately there are those two almost view his recordings as some sort of holy grail not to be criticised or superseded. However it must be admitted that others have played them as well if not better than him in certain sonatas, building on what he accomplished.


Somehow you have arrived at a confused understanding of our appreciation for Schnabel's Beethoven and Schubert. That appreciation has little or nothing to do with technique, and everything to do with interpretation.


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## DavidA

Hilltroll72 said:


> Somehow you have arrived at a confused understanding of our appreciation for Schnabel's Beethoven and Schubert. That appreciation has little or nothing to do with technique, and everything to do with interpretation.


Sorry, but I don't think you understand what I said. I was not just talking about technique but interpretation too. In many places Schnabel's have been superseded by others. For example, his Hammerklavier in as been bettered by others. One I can name is Richter, who blows Schnabel out the water. Similarly, others have played Schubert D960 better. I have Lupu, Brendel, kovacevich, pollini and Kempff, all of whom I would put ahead. Now that's not to say that Schnabel was not a great pianist and an even greater musician and we owe him an incalculable debt especially for his rediscovery of Schubert. But I still believe his recordings have been bettered.


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## Ukko

DavidA said:


> Sorry, but I don't think you understand what I said. I was not just talking about technique but interpretation too. In many places Schnabel's have been superseded by others. For example, his Hammerklavier in as been bettered by others. One I can name is Richter, who blows Schnabel out the water. Similarly, others have played Schubert D960 better. I have Lupu, Brendel, kovacevich, pollini and Kempff, all of whom I would put ahead. Now that's not to say that Schnabel was not a great pianist and an even greater musician and we owe him an incalculable debt especially for his rediscovery of Schubert. But I still believe his recordings have been bettered.


You have what is (to me) a sorry notion of "better".


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## Vaneyes

Nobody blows anybody out of the water, although they do occasionally knock people's socks off.

When LvB Piano Sonatas require power, I enjoy how Schnabel takes it to the edge, while maintaining musicality. 

His wrong notes sound good.


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## DavidA

Hilltroll72 said:


> You have what is (to me) a sorry notion of "better".


You are of course quite free to disagree with me on a forum like this. When we get beyond playing the notes and what the composer wrote then all musical taste is subjective.

Frankly however I would say that to call the pianists like Richter, Lupu. Brendel, Kempff, Kovacevich, , et al I've mentioned a 'sorry notion' is somewhat condescending.


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## DavidA

If you're investigating Schnabel one of the best recordings to begin at is his recording of the Diabelli variations by Beethoven. It really is fantastic. Full of wit. Now there is one which is right up there with the best today apart from the sonics.


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## Ukko

DavidA said:


> You are of course quite free to disagree with me on a forum like this. When we get beyond playing the notes and what the composer wrote then all musical taste is subjective.
> 
> Frankly however I would say that to call the pianists like Richter, Lupu. Brendel, Kempff, Kovacevich, , et al I've mentioned a 'sorry notion' is somewhat condescending.


Sorry notions of the subject sort reside in the heads of listeners. Performers may, and sometimes do, have sorry notions - but they are in the realm of _conceiving_ interpretations, rather than in the _incomprehension_ of them. This distinction is not a 'fine point'.

The above general observation, addressed to the world at large even though it is a belaboring of the obvious, contains terms in italics. This was done to assist understanding.


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## kv466

I've been criticized on this board for not being a big Schnabel fan and it's been thrown in my face how my hero regarded him as the best Beethoven player. Well, he liked ketchup too and that doesn't mean I'm gonna start putting it all over my fries. Sure, he's a fantastic player but simply not what I like to hear out of an interpretation.


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## DavidA

Hilltroll72 said:


> Sorry notions of the subject sort reside in the heads of listeners. Performers may, and sometimes do, have sorry notions - but they are in the realm of _conceiving_ interpretations, rather than in the _incomprehension_ of them. This distinction is not a 'fine point'.
> 
> The above general observation, addressed to the world at large even though it is a belaboring of the obvious, contains terms in italics. This was done to assist understanding.


So what you are saying is that wrong-headed interpretations occur in the minds of the listeners and not what is played by the interpreters?

Frankly your point does not seem to be belabouring the obvious but propagating the obscure.


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## Ukko

kv466 said:


> I've been criticized on this board for not being a big Schnabel fan and it's been thrown in my face how my hero regarded him as the best Beethoven player. Well, he liked ketchup too and that doesn't mean I'm gonna start putting it all over my fries. Sure, he's a fantastic player but simply not what I like to hear out of an interpretation.


Ketchup is strongly flavored, so is used to disguise/modify the taste of some other foodstuffs. It's analog in classical music is... what? I dunno. Suggestions?


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## Ukko

DavidA said:


> So what you are saying is that wrong-headed interpretations occur in the minds of the listeners and not what is played by the interpreters?
> 
> Frankly your point does not seem to be belabouring the obvious but propagating the obscure.


You don't get it? Even with the _italics_? Sorry for your continued confusion; I can be of no further assistance.


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## quack

I quite like Schnabel's compositions, more modern than you might expect and taking his lead from Schoenberg, rather than Beethoven as Furtwangler did.

Also, and even more irrelevant, Julian Schabel's (no relation) plate paintings are interesting.


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## DavidA

Hilltroll72 said:


> You don't get it? Even with the _italics_? Sorry for your continued confusion; I can be of no further assistance.


Sorry but I did not realise that the inclusion of italics into abstruse prose automatically guaranteed understanding.


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## joen_cph

That Schnabel also worked as composer, at first in a late-romantic style and then becoming influenced by Schoenberg, is perhaps less known.

A work from 1901, a "Piano Concerto", illustrates his early style and was only recently uploaded on youtube in a (very) historical recording 




The "7 Piano Pieces" tell of his later, Schoenbergian style 




(Some other clips which can be found, unfortunately in very unattractive recordings, are the Violin Sonata, the 4th String Quartet, Duodecimet).


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## Ukko

joen_cph said:


> That Schnabel also worked as composer, at first in a late-romantic style and then becoming influenced by Schoenberg, is perhaps less known.
> 
> A work from 1901, a "Piano Concerto", illustrates his early style and was only recently uploaded on youtube in a (very) historical recording
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The "7 Piano Pieces" tell of his later, Schoenbergian style
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (Some other clips which can be found, unfortunately in very unattractive recordings, are the Violin Sonata, the 4th String Quartet, Duodecimet).


[ Your avatar (as of this date) is... interesting.]

I have recordings of several of Schnabel's 'late period' works. The Schönberg influence must have been fleeting. _Duodecimet_ and its relatives have some of the appurtenances, but none of the 'feel' of Schönberg . When Schnabel got his 'free composition' going, all bets were off.


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## joen_cph

Schnabel´s compositions are more interesting than Kempff´s where I once had an Arte Nova CD of chamber works but got rid of it - really boring stuff.

The *Schubert impromptus* are among Schnabel´s most interesting recordings, such as this D935,3 




 with an unusual beginning and a lot of varying moods later on.

(((My avatar is from "_Les Vancances de Monsieur Hulot_", his favourite look-out point to the nearby beach scenery. The movie is not as fine as "_Mon Oncle_", also by Tati, but has some visual goodies now and then 



))).


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## Ukko

^^ I listened to Schnabel, and then the same impromptu played by Yudina (accessible on the same page).


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## joen_cph

Hilltroll72 said:


> ^^ I listened to Schnabel, and then the same impromptu played by Yudina (accessible on the same page).


Yes, what a contrast. I´m a big fan of Yudina too but chose this impromptu for Schnabel, since he has less of the sketchy jabbing there that can make his playing less convincing now and then. In the impromptu you hear how he´s shaping every note. The same applies to some of his best Beethoven sonatas, but alas they are apparently not all on you-tube.


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## moody

As the Americans say :We've been this route before . It must be very comforting to a member when he/she is told that his/her choice has been "blown out of the water".
I am glad that we are getting into serious musical terminology,with what type of torpedo was Schnabel blown up ? A dud actually !
Here is a fascinating fact,my supplier alone has 39 entries for Schnabel...this for piano recordings made in the 1930's and 1940's.
I see no others that approach that ,I wonder what the explanation can be ?
Schnabel was a Leschetizsky pupil along with Mark Hambourg, Ignaz Friedman and Ossip Gabrilowitsch, Leschetizsky only took on pupils who he considered to have great promise.
Schnabel's pupils include Leon Fleischer,Clifford Curzon and Claude Franck.
His technique was in fact second to none listen to him playing Beethoven's 'Rage Over a Lost Penny'.

" there is a saying to the effect that Schnabel is a great interpreter 0f Beethoven rather than a technically great pianist. It is a stupid saying---as though any pianist would dare an 'interpretation ' of op. 106 without the help of consummate technique. 
We can only bow to the music---and to the great and subtly simple pianist who is playing for us....".
I've always noticed that it is pianists who laud Schnabel to the heavens regarding his performancs of Beethoven,Brahms and Schubert.
Incidentally, I don't accept that his D.960 recording has been superceeded at all, it is the performance all others are judged by.


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## DavidA

I must confess to being puzzled by some of this, that criticism of Schnabel is taken by some as a musical heresy. I'm speaking here as an admirer. What I am not is an uncritical admirer who Schnabel's playing is some form of holy writ. Let's face it - his playing of the Hammerklavier just doesn't come off for some reason. As critic Andrew Clements wrote in the Guardian:
' Artur Schnabel, for instance, whose reputation rests, in large part, upon his recordings of the Beethoven sonatas, is not at his most convincing in the Hammerklavier (EMI), where the sheer difficulties of the piano writing seem to destroy his poise.'
Schnabel's playing of this sonata has been bettered by others, particularly Solomon, Richter, Pollini, Serkin and Gilels. 
This is not to belittle Schnabel but to say others have done it better. A point which no doubt the great musician himself would rejoice in!


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## Ramako

I bought the Schnabel complete Beethoven sonatas because they were ludicrously cheap on Amazon, I didn't have all of them and I couldn't resist the bargain.

Now it seems like I have bought one of the greatest sets of recordings of them that are out there - this is excellent news!


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## Hausmusik

DavidA said:


> What I am not is an uncritical admirer who Schnabel's playing is some form of holy writ. Let's face it - his playing of the Hammerklavier just doesn't come off for some reason. As critic Andrew Clements wrote in the Guardian:
> ' Artur Schnabel, for instance, whose reputation rests, in large part, upon his recordings of the Beethoven sonatas, is not at his most convincing in the Hammerklavier (EMI), where the sheer difficulties of the piano writing seem to destroy his poise'


Isn't Clements the guy whose Guardian "reviews" consist of six glib sentences , five of them rehashing liner notes, and a star rating? Hardly a critical heavy hitter I'm afraid. I am not sure what quoting his negative opinion of Schnabel is supposed to persuade me of.

I really didn't start this thread to give people an opportunity for Schnabel bashing. I was looking for advice as to recordings, masterings, etc. to listen to. If you are here to persuade me Schnabel is not worth listening to, well your view is noted, but that ship has sailed. I have already been quite magnetized by some of his recordings on Spotify, Hammerklavier included.

Some advice for someone who wants to add some Schnabel to his library: is the $1.99 Amazon download in good enough sound or should I save up for one of the box sets?


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## KenOC

Hausmusik said:


> Some advice for someone who wants to add some Schnabel to his library: is the $1.99 Amazon download in good enough sound or should I save up for one of the box sets?


I have that download. Not sure what "good enough" means when we talk about Schnabel recordings, but it's not too bad. And hey, it's two bucks!

Maybe more important, it's missing the Op. 110 for some reason. Look at the track listing, like I didn't. I wrote Amazon and they said, yep, you're right. They offered a refund but I figured that would be bad form. And you can pick up the missing sonata elsewhere on the web for free with some poking about.


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## DavidA

Ramako said:


> I bought the Schnabel complete Beethoven sonatas because they were ludicrously cheap on Amazon, I didn't have all of them and I couldn't resist the bargain.
> 
> Now it seems like I have bought one of the greatest sets of recordings of them that are out there - this is excellent news!


I too bought this download. Ludicrously cheap.


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## DavidA

Hausmusik said:


> Isn't Clements the guy whose Guardian "reviews" consist of six glib sentences , five of them rehashing liner notes, and a star rating? Hardly a critical heavy hitter I'm afraid. I am not sure what quoting his negative opinion of Schnabel is supposed to persuade me of.
> 
> I really didn't start this thread to give people an opportunity for Schnabel bashing. I was looking for advice as to recordings, masterings, etc. to listen to. If you are here to persuade me Schnabel is not worth listening to, well your view is noted, but that ship has sailed. I have already been quite magnetized by some of his recordings on Spotify, Hammerklavier included.
> 
> Some advice for someone who wants to add some Schnabel to his library: is the $1.99 Amazon download in good enough sound or should I save up for one of the box sets?


I certainly did not contribute to 'bash' a great artist like Schnabel. All I said was that his recordings should not be taken as a holy grail which can never be surpassed and, in my opinion, others had played certain works better, including the Hammerklavier, where Schnabel's conception goes beyond his technique. 
Here's someone else' a Schnabel fan:
He does test my loyalty a little though at the beginning of the Hammerklavier, tearing into it at top speed and with enormous tension, betrayed by lack of control which can escape no-one; his fingers 'keep jumping the rail'. One critic said, not unfairly, that Schnabel gave you more of the music and less of the notes than anyone else!
I am in no way 'bashing' Schnabel when I say people have played at least some of the music better since any more than I would be bashing that great athlete, Roger Bannister, if I say other people have run the mile faster since!
I admire Schnabel - who wouldn't! That is not to say everything he did is unquestionable.
BTW have I recommended the Diabelli Variations? A good place to start with Schnabel on top form.


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## DavidA

KenOC said:


> I have that download. Not sure what "good enough" means when we talk about Schnabel recordings, but it's not too bad. And hey, it's two bucks!
> 
> Maybe more important, it's missing the Op. 110 for some reason. Look at the track listing, like I didn't. I wrote Amazon and they said, yep, you're right. They offered a refund but I figured that would be bad form. And you can pick up the missing sonata elsewhere on the web for free with some poking about.


The missing sonata is available on Naxos.


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## moody

I think there is a problem here and it is caused by the sterilised recording industry of today.
Anybody who attends "live" concerts and/or the opera is quite used to mistakes,loud prompts and so on ,it does not worry us we take it in our stride 
The only recording of Schnabel's to have a fault in technique is the "Hammerklavier",why not mention the others ?
Also it is helpful if posters answer questions or points posed by other members rather than forging blithely ahead with their own agenda regardless.
An enlightening story about Schnabel : The producer came to him and asked him if he wanted to redo a 78 side as he had made a mistake (you see they could do remakes) Schnabel answered "No, I might not make a mistake next time".
The best remedy to the "Hammerklavier" problem is not to buy it or not to listen to it,that will avoid any health breakdowns by those of a delicate nature.
By the way ,my favourite version of that sonata has always been Egon Petri's.


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## DavidA

moody said:


> I think there is a problem here and it is caused by the sterilised recording industry of today.
> Anybody who attends "live" concerts and/or the opera is quite used to mistakes,loud prompts and so on ,it does not worry us we take it in our stride
> The only recording of Schnabel's to have a fault in technique is the "Hammerklavier",why not mention the others ?
> Also it is helpful if posters answer questions or points posed by other members rather than forging blithely ahead with their own agenda regardless.
> An enlightening story about Schnabel : The producer came to him and asked him if he wanted to redo a 78 side as he had made a mistake (you see they could do remakes) Schnabel answered "No, I might not make a mistake next time".
> The best remedy to the "Hammerklavier" problem is not to buy it or not to listen to it,that will avoid any health breakdowns by those of a delicate nature.
> By the way ,my favourite version of that sonata has always been Egon Petri's.


The problem is not caused by the sterilised nature of recording today. In the Hammerklavier it is caused by Schnabel's concept of the piece taking him beyond the limits of his own virtuosity. Interesting that Richter - in live concert - does it a lot better. The reason? Richter probably had a bigger technique to cope with the outlandish demands of the piece. Solomon in the recording studio gives a blinding performance - I hope you're not going to say it is 'sterilised'?
I also go to live performances in which I take slips in my stride. In a recording which is to be listened to again and again such things can irritate. That is why artists today do retakes to eliminate such faults.
Your quote about Schnabel is one of those which is ridiculous if taken seriously. If Schnabel did say that he had his tongue in his cheek. Else you are saying that it is a virtue in itself to play wrong notes!
I have noticed to tend to think in black and white terms. Because I say some people have played some works better than Schnabel you immediately assume I am dismissing all that Schnabel did or his great contribution to music and recording. Not at all! I have his recordings of the sonatas and the Diabelli. I do not have a health problem is listening to them either. This is music not an infectious disease! 
Just that I do not take them as sacred writ which can never be bettered.


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## kv466

moody said:


> I think there is a problem here and it is caused by the sterilised recording industry of today.
> Anybody who attends "live" concerts and/or the opera is quite used to mistakes,loud prompts and so on ,it does not worry us we take it in our stride
> The only recording of Schnabel's to have a fault in technique is the "Hammerklavier",why not mention the others ?
> Also it is helpful if posters answer questions or points posed by other members rather than forging blithely ahead with their own agenda regardless.
> An enlightening story about Schnabel : The producer came to him and asked him if he wanted to redo a 78 side as he had made a mistake (you see they could do remakes) Schnabel answered "No, I might not make a mistake next time".
> The best remedy to the "Hammerklavier" problem is not to buy it or not to listen to it,that will avoid any health breakdowns by those of a delicate nature.
> By the way ,my favourite version of that sonata has always been Egon Petri's.


Ahhh, I think I'm finally starting to understand you, Moodster! You don't care for perfection and perhaps even strive for mediocrity. Is this something that comes with old age? 

Anyway, my vote for ROALP is Don Dorsey. Never heard it played on any set of keys better; and yes, sorry, I do care for perfection in a performance and that's why I like he who shall not be named.


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## moody

kv466 said:


> Ahhh, I think I'm finally starting to understand you, Moodster! You don't care for perfection and perhaps even strive for mediocrity. Is this something that comes with old age?
> 
> Anyway, my vote for ROALP is Don Dorsey. Never heard it played on any set of keys better; and yes, sorry, I do care for perfection in a performance and that's why I like he who shall not be named.


That was uncalled for as you know perfectly well that I am a fan of Earl Wild along with you.


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## Hausmusik

KenOC said:


> I have that download. Not sure what "good enough" means when we talk about Schnabel recordings, but it's not too bad. And hey, it's two bucks!


Thanks Ken--as you say, the price is right. But even $2 is too much if I don't end up listening to it (i.e. if I end up just upgrading for a different mastering anyway, and this one collects virtual dust in my Cloud Drive!)

I am listening to it now on Spotify. It's nicely free or surface hiss, but with the usual entailed downside that the sound is somewhat dull and muffled. I agree with you it's "not too bad."


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## DavidA

kv466 said:


> Ahhh, I think I'm finally starting to understand you, Moodster! You don't care for perfection and perhaps even strive for mediocrity. Is this something that comes with old age?
> 
> Anyway, my vote for ROALP is Don Dorsey. Never heard it played on any set of keys better; and yes, sorry, I do care for perfection in a performance and that's why I like he who shall not be named.


I think this old guy is better

www.youtube.com/watch?v=kKjJEQKThrM


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## Hausmusik

Found some very good-sounding transfers of most (all?) of the Beethoven sonatas and some Schubert for free on archive.org. The transfers for most of these recordings were done by Bob Varney, and to my ear they are extremely well done, free of surface noise without sounding overly muffled. These are to my ear preferable to the transfers I have sampled on Spotify or through the library. Unfortunately, most of the so-called the "VBR MP3s" are actually in 320 CBR, which according to bigshot is higher than necessary for mono recordings...but that is a minor complaint.

http://archive.org/search.php?query=schnabel artur

EDIT: Holy cow there's a lot of good stuff on archive.org. A handful of violin concertos in good mono sound by Nathan Milstein, quite a bit of Bruno Walter, Klemperer. . . Maybe we should start a thread for this, or maybe there already is one. . .


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## Ukko

kv466 said:


> Ahhh, I think I'm finally starting to understand you, Moodster! You don't care for perfection and perhaps even strive for mediocrity. Is this something that comes with old age?
> 
> Anyway, my vote for ROALP is Don Dorsey. Never heard it played on any set of keys better; and yes, sorry, I do care for perfection in a performance and that's why I like he who shall not be named.


If that is the 'quote' I think it might be, it has several versions. The one I am more familiar with is placed during the recording of one of the Brahms concertos. The engineer (or producer) asked Schnabel if he wanted to do a remake of a side that contained flubs. Schnabel's reply was to the effect that he saw no point in it, as other flubs are as apt to be there as not. This took place late in his performing career. His standing in the music world was well established; his technique was at that stage that geezers prefer to designate as 'mature'.

At no point in the performing life of Schnabel was he or anyone else under the impression that he was 'a new Lizst', a 'virtuoso among virtuosi'. He could shape notes to fit his interpretations of Schubert and Beethoven, and those interpretations were much admired - by other professionals _and_ mere civilians.

Seems like that's enough.


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## moody

I think rather than make ageist jokes (?) and telling us about Don Dorsey (who?)our resident Glen Gould expert might have mentioned this from Sony Music Canada's biography of Gould by Robert Fulford. " Of significant influence on Gould were ,Artur Schnabel (Gould: 'The piano was a means to an end for him and the end was to approach Beethoven') Roselyn Turek's Bach and Stokowski."
As for DavidA,you make no comment on the number of Schnabel recordings being sold. He passed the Hammerklavier recording and it has been around for 70 years now so his comment could not have been that tongue in cheek really.
Wrong notes are not a virtue but are not important,I suppose you don't listen to Cortot playing Chopin or French music in that case--you don't know what you are missing.
As for black and white terms surely that is you and not me ,otherwise I would have said that his Hammerklavier is no good because of wrong notes ?
I remember the tenor Lauri-Volpi's remark when asked who was the best tenor of all time: "First you put Caruso on one side and then we may consider the others".We have a similar situation here.
I think that the comments regarding Schnabel generally on TC are very positive when you consider the age group across the board.
But we should consider the chicken and egg situation,to me the concert is first and the recording second. A live recording is better than a studio recording ...more exciting usually.
There is nothing to compare with a concert ,mistakes and all, unfortunately the state of my health means that i can probably never attend another one,or to go to most events in fact .I am sure that Hausmusik can be happy with Schnabel whatever package he/she may purchase. But you should always have several versions of all the main sonatas,funds permitting.


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## Hausmusik

moody said:


> Wrong notes are not a virtue but are not important,I suppose you don't listen to Cortot playing Chopin or French music in that case--you don't know what you are missing.


Yeah, I more or less agree with moody's post. Look, nobody (obviously) is saying they _want_ to hear wrong notes. It is a question of whether one should tolerate a small quantity of human imperfection from a great interpreter, particularly from an age before studio postproduction magic, rather than technical perfection from a mediocre interpreter. That is not always the choice, but the choice does come up. NYPO under Bernstein on Sony is rarely as technically up to snuff as say the VPO or the Concertgebouw, but I'd be a fool to let that prevent me from listening to some of their best recordings (such as their Eroica and Brahms 2 & 3, etc.). Indeed, I've yet to hear an Eroica that gets my pulse racing like theirs.

If you want absolute technical perfection, buy nothing but the Emerson Quartet, who eliminate all mistakes through post-production edits. Buy their Mendelssohn Octet where they "collaborate" with themselves: ah, the magic of the studio! These recordings are simulacra, copies for which there are no true originals, representations of performances that never actually existed except in the realm of reproduction. One might as well just go for midi--never a problem with wrong notes there.


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## DavidA

moody said:


> As for DavidA,you make no comment on the number of Schnabel recordings being sold. He passed the Hammerklavier recording and it has been around for 70 years now so his comment could not have been that tongue in cheek really.
> Wrong notes are not a virtue but are not important,I suppose you don't listen to Cortot playing Chopin or French music in that case--you don't know what you are missing.
> As for black and white terms surely that is you and not me ,otherwise I would have said that his Hammerklavier is no good because of wrong notes ?
> I remember the tenor Lauri-Volpi's remark when asked who was the best tenor of all time: "First you put Caruso on one side and then we may consider the others".We have a similar situation here.
> I think that the comments regarding Schnabel generally on TC are very positive when you consider the age group across the board.
> But we should consider the chicken and egg situation,to me the concert is first and the recording second. A live recording is better than a studio recording ...more exciting usually.
> There is nothing to compare with a concert ,mistakes and all, unfortunately the state of my health means that i can probably never attend another one,or to go to most events in fact .I am sure that Hausmusik can be happy with Schnabel whatever package he/she may purchase. But you should always have several versions of all the main sonatas,funds permitting.


Okay. If your point about quality being proportional to number of sales is correct when Lang Lang should be the greatest pianist ever. 
I would not insult Schnabel's intelligence to think that his remark was not made tongue in cheek! He was a highly intelligent man and would not have come out with a remark like that unless he was kidding.
I must confess that this view that the old is always better doesn't sit with me very well. There were some great pianists of the past but there are also some superb pianists around today. Else we are going backwards.
We can be like a old boxing fan I knew who would always argue that Mohammed Ali would not have gone single round with joe Louis. 
We are getting better at an awful lot of skills so why aren't we getting better at making music as well?


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## moody

DavidA said:


> Okay. If your point about quality being proportional to number of sales is correct when Lang Lang should be the greatest pianist ever.
> I would not insult Schnabel's intelligence to think that his remark was not made tongue in cheek! He was a highly intelligent man and would not have come out with a remark like that unless he was kidding.
> I must confess that this view that the old is always better doesn't sit with me very well. There were some great pianists of the past but there are also some superb pianists around today. Else we are going backwards.
> We can be like a old boxing fan I knew who would always argue that Mohammed Ali would not have gone single round with joe Louis.
> We are getting better at an awful lot of skills so why aren't we getting better at making music as well?


You are good at missing the point aren't you?
My comment was that it was surprising to see so many recordings being available of a pianist from the 1930's and 40'sI have no idea how many sales are being made,but it obviously proves somethig don't you think. I know of no others in that position.As for Lang Lang,he's in fashion at the moment and I'm sure he's very good,I saw a prom when he did Tchaikovsky One and it was all very exciting.
Unless you have something worthwhile to say why don't you let it go,I should think we may be boring people.


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## DavidA

moody said:


> You are good at missing the point aren't you?
> My comment was that it was surprising to see so many recordings being available of a pianist from the 1930's and 40'sI have no idea how many sales are being made,but it obviously proves somethig don't you think. I know of no others in that position.As for Lang Lang,he's in fashion at the moment and I'm sure he's very good,I saw a prom when he did Tchaikovsky One and it was all very exciting.
> Unless you have something worthwhile to say why don't you let it go,I should think we may be boring people.


I am sorry but it is quite obvious you have completely missed the point about what I was trying to say. I will agree on one thing. It is pointless trying to have a discussion with you. So let's leave it at that.


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## DavidA

I agree.

But I also believe you can have superb technique and technical expertise from a great interpreter. I do not believe great technique and great interpretative powers are mutually exclusive. Richter was one who combined both. So did (and do) a lot more pianists.


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## Hausmusik

DavidA said:


> I agree.
> 
> But I also believe you can have superb technique and technical expertise from a great interpreter. I do not believe great technique and great interpretative powers are mutually exclusive. Richter was one who combined both. So did (and do) a lot more pianists.


As I have already said, the choice between technique and interpretation is "not always the choice, but the choice does come up."


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## DavidA

Hausmusik said:


> As I have already said, the choice between technique and interpretation is "not always the choice, but the choice does come up."


OK. Agreed.


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## kv466

moody said:


> I think rather than make ageist jokes (?) and telling us about Don Dorsey (who?)our resident Glen Gould expert might have mentioned this from Sony Music Canada's biography of Gould by Robert Fulford. " Of significant influence on Gould were ,Artur Schnabel (Gould: 'The piano was a means to an end for him and the end was to approach Beethoven') Roselyn Turek's Bach and Stokowski."


Awwww, Moodster, did you not see the wink? That was supposed to mean it was part of our ongoing friendly dispute! I was fully kidding but I didn't think I would have to say that. As far as this resident Gould expert, that would be our good buddy Pierre who I haven't seen in a long time. You okay Pierre?! Also, I did address my hero's position on Schnabel and what he felt about him and that has nothing to do with my opinion. Heck, I'm sure Earl Wild had wild respect for Horrorwitz but that's not gonna make me like him any more.

And remember, I didn't take offense when you targeted me out in the 'what's your role' thread...it was funny, however incorrect.


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## moody

kv466 said:


> Awwww, Moodster, did you not see the wink? That was supposed to mean it was part of our ongoing friendly dispute! I was fully kidding but I didn't think I would have to say that. As far as this resident Gould expert, that would be our good buddy Pierre who I haven't seen in a long time. You okay Pierre?! Also, I did address my hero's position on Schnabel and what he felt about him and that has nothing to do with my opinion. Heck, I'm sure Earl Wild had wild respect for Horrorwitz but that's not gonna make me like him any more.
> 
> And remember, I didn't take offense when you targeted me out in the 'what's your role' thread...it was funny, however incorrect.


OK I'm sorry ,sometimes I can't see the wood for the trees !


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## Ukko

Excellent! Glad two of my friends came to an understanding. There is always a potential for confusion when a practitioner of linear thinking converses with someone who enjoys 'turns of phrase'. It's like a trip into suburbia; there is a no-turns route through, and a some loop roads off of it that will get you through eventually. There are also roads that should be marked 'No Exit', but aren't.


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## Hausmusik

Reading Schnabel's _My Life and Music_. Interesting quote, and useful reminder for those who sometimes talk as if the classical music "canon" was carved by God into tablets given to Moses.

"...when I play Mozart and Schubert, I am told that I 'make the music greater than it is.' I read this printed--often. . . .The official musical world never admitted Mozart and Schubert to the rank, calibre, or level of Beethoven. So each time when a musician is now genuinely and spontaneously moved and impressed by a piano work by Mozart and Schubert, he is inclined to think the performer did something wrong, for this music is not supposed to be moving and profound--you see?"

This is just a throwaway passage, however, in a book teeming with stunning remarks. Schnabel is somewhat conservative, an old-fashioned humanist, and Adornean in his hostility to pop culture and jazz. But even if I don;t always share his values, I am amazed on every page by his fierce intelligence.


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## Ukko

Hausmusik said:


> Reading Schnabel's _My Life and Music_. Interesting quote, and useful reminder for those who sometimes talk as if the classical music "canon" was carved by God into tablets given to Moses.
> 
> "...when I play Mozart and Schubert, I am told that I 'make the music greater than it is.' I read this printed--often. . . .The official musical world never admitted Mozart and Schubert to the rank, calibre, or level of Beethoven. So each time when a musician is now genuinely and spontaneously and spontaneously moved and impressed by a piano work by Mozart and Schubert, he is inclined to think the performer did something wrong, for this music is not supposed to be moving and profound--you see?"
> 
> This is just a throwaway passage, however, in a book teeming with stuning remarks. Schnabel is somewhat conservative, a old-fashioned humanist, and Adornean in his hostility to pop culture and jazz. But I am amazed on every page by his fierce intelligence.


I read somewhere that Artur's son has had published an 'unexpurgated' version of that book, restoring text about then living contemporaries. Haven't seen it around though.


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## Guest

Here's Schanbel's Beethoven's Piano Sonata's Recordings:





You can thank me later....


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## Guest

What is the general opinion regarding the Schnabel recordings?


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## Guest

Interestingly enough here's Claudio Arrau's complete Beethoven Piano Sonata Cycle:


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## moody

karajan said:


> What is the general opinion regarding the Schnabel recordings?


That they set the standard from that day on.


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## Guest

Are you honestly telling me that Schnabel set the standard and not say Kempff? I know his was the one of the earliest recording but that does not necessitate it to become the "standard".


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## DavidA

For me the Schnabel recordings are exploratory. I was surprised just how personal they sometimes were. If he had recorded them again he might have done it quite differently. So to take them as a 'standard' might not be a good idea as maybe Schnabel himself might not have done so


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## Guest

Ok.. Thanks for the info.


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## Ukko

I'd sooner say that the Schnabel Beethoven was/is an 'object of admiration' for both other pianists and much of the classical-music-listening public. I have heard no other recordings that approach the music the way Schnabel did (Gulda is fairly close in the sonatas before Op. 31), so I have to assume that other pianists chose not to go the route Schnabel did. What would be their motive for trying to repeat his interpretations anyway? All of us are supposedly unique personalities, but Schnabel was more unique than most.


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## moody

karajan said:


> Are you honestly telling me that Schnabel set the standard and not say Kempff? I know his was the one of the earliest recording but that does not necessitate it to become the "standard".


Yes I'm honestly telling you exactly that.
"The Man Who Invented Beethoven" he was christened at on time . He is a legend and legends tend to increase with the years and he taught many pupils and they carried on his tradition. Before him nobody would have even dreamed of giving a Beethoven only recital.
Schnabel was the first pianist to record the 32 sonatas. His Beethoven had incomparable style ,intellectual strength and phrasing of aristocratic purity,
A mind comes through--a logical stimulating sensitive mind.
Schnabel's fierce integrity and brilliant intellect made him the leader of the German school of piano playing.
Schnabel in the greater Beethoven begins where other pianists leave off .it has been said that he was a great interpreter rather than a technically great pianist. How ridiculous,as though a pianist could get anywhere near an "interpretation" of Op.106 without a consummate technique.
He must have been spiritually related to Beethoven,only this can explain why Schnabel could serve as a medium for the profoundest of Beethoven's wisdom--which is the profoundest wisdom the musical world has known.
Time and time again Schnabel is discussed across the music world you don't see Kempf being argued over in this way or any other pianist.
If you look at the main suppliers lists Schnabel has so many recordings still available and he's been dead quite a long time.
But listen to him and the answer is there for you.


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## EricABQ

I'm listening to the mp3 version of his sonata #1 as I type this. 

It took some effort to ignore the sound quality issues, but the more I listen to these recordings the more I like them, and they have become my most listened to version of the sonatas. To think I spent only $2 on the entire set is quite remarkable.


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## Ukko

EricABQ said:


> I'm listening to the mp3 version of his sonata #1 as I type this.
> 
> It took some effort to ignore the sound quality issues, but the more I listen to these recordings the more I like them, and they have become my most listened to version of the sonatas. To think I spent only $2 on the entire set is quite remarkable.


If you are curious, and would like a better idea of what Schnabel's playing sounded like, you could check out Pristine Audio's offerings. The transfers are 'state-of-the-art', and quite remarkable. I sprung for one CD's worth of mp3/320kbps download, €7, and am impressed with how much more 'information' is there. I figure that after I have absorbed what this tells me about his sound, I can provide it in my mind while listening to my other recordings; I hope.


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## KenOC

There's a site where all of Schnabel's sonatas, in reasonable transfers, are available for free. I can't remember where it is, but it's probably findable on a search... I used this to supply the Op. 110, which was oddly omitted from Amazon's cheap download.


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