# Did Bach really compose the Toccata and Fugue in D minor



## Vivaldi

The attribution of the Toccata and Fugue in D minor to Bach has been challenged since the 1970s by a number of scholars. There are atypical features throughout the piece and even frankly broken chords. For some time there were theories that it was the product of a young and adventurous Bach, or that it was in fact a piece meant as an organ test.. There's the name -- Bach's generation would have called it "Praeludium et fuga," not Toccata and Fugue -- and a progression of notes Bach never would have allowed.

"Bach's greatest inspiration is invariably revealed through his complete mastery of the 'rules,' " 
The evidence of rule-breaking includes doubling at the octave and the curious minor cadence that ends the Toccata, both not heard elsewhere in Bach's organ output (usually even a work in a minor key concludes with a major chord). The Toccata also brims with harmony and counterpoint bordering on simplistic for the masterful composer.

"No other Bach fugue contains such feeble part-writing," writes Fox-LeFriche, citing the "complete absence of contrasting rhythm, contrary motion or a least a few notes that don't slavishly follow the subject."

In short, the Toccata and Fugue approaches nothing Bach ever wrote for the organ, or ever wrote at all.

"It is certainly very different than any of his organ works," says Don Fellows, organist at St. Paul Cathedral in Oakland. "There are parts that don't fit the hands."

So if Bach did not write the Toccata and Fugue, then who did?


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## Jimm

I have no idea who wrote it .. but in my humble opinion, I don't think BACH did, I mean listen to it!


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## PetrB

Jimm said:


> I have no idea who wrote it .. but in my humble opinion, I don't think BACH did, I mean listen to it!


If he did, it is about the only piece of really ripe cheese he ever produced


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## StlukesguildOhio

Hmmm... Schumann, Mendelssohn, Liszt, Busoni, Stokowski, Eugene Ormandy, Hans Fagius, Andrew Manze, Peter Hurford, Marie-Claire Alain, etc... all admired the work and never questioned the attribution. Andrew Manze has suggested that the work was originally written for solo violin... and some other scholars have suggested that the piece was a transcription (by Bach based on an anonymous original source) for solo violin... later transcribed again for organ.






It is interesting that we get members here suggesting that the work can't be by Bach because it falls short of Bach's usual genius, yet Bach scholar/organist Hans Fagius writes: "the enduring popularity of the work is not difficult to understand, since there is "a fantastic drive and energy to the piece that simply make it irresistible." The Musicologist, Hermann Keller spoke of the introductory passages as "descending like a lightning flash, the long roll of thunder of the broken chords of the full organ, and the stormy undulation of the triplets." This assessment was echoed by the Bach scholar, Hans-Joachim Schulze:

Here is elemental and unbounded power, in impatiently ascending and descending runs and rolling masses of chords, that only with difficulty abates sufficiently to give place to the logic and balance of the Fugue. With the reprise of the initial Toccata, the dramatic idea reaches its culmunation amidst flying scales and with an ending of great sonority.

Hmmm...?


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## KenOC

It's also possible that the work is based on an improvisation of young Bach, perhaps one that somebody else wrote down. I'm sure Bach kept a few of these in his hip pocket, pretty well worked out (to avoid embarrassment). That might account for some of the "informalities" that some seem to find objectionable.


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## Whipsnade

I believe it was written by Vincent Price or perhaps a young Bela Lugosi.


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## StlukesguildOhio

Looking at some articles on line I came upon another theory that suggested that the supposed awkwardness of the work was perhaps the result of Bach attempting to compose around the poor organ that he was known to have had at his disposal at the time. Whatever the case may be, I quite enjoy the work... perhaps not to the same extent as the Passacaglia... but still...


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## BurningDesire

The Toccata and Fugue is a gorgeous piece, as worthy as any great piece by Bach. I have to wonder why somebody would assume that Bach didn't write something because it has many things about it which are unique among his works. Wouldn't it make sense that a really great composer like Bach might explore different things? Wouldn't it make sense for not all of his works to be exactly the same?

If somebody else wrote it, I'd like to see proof, and I'd like them to receive their due credit. If Bach didn't write this, that doesn't diminish it at all, but you gotta provide some genuine evidence rather than the classical music equivalent of 9/11 truther arguments before people will consider it in serious capacity.


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## Ukko

Hah. Based on the samples above, it works _much_ better on violin.


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## moody

Hilltroll72 said:


> Hah. Based on the samples above, it works _much_ better on violin.


Good heavens---I always thought Leopold Stokowski wrote it!!


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## GodNickSatan

Hilltroll72 said:


> Hah. Based on the samples above, it works _much_ better on violin.


I've heard the theory behind it being written for violin before, but that's the first time I've heard it played on violin. Sounded great! I also love the hell out the Leopold Stokowski version.


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## StlukesguildOhio

I've heard the theory behind it being written for violin before, but that's the first time I've heard it played on violin. Sounded great! 

When it comes to the baroque violin, Manze rarely disappoints.


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## Couchie

It's very unique and memorable. That rules out most Baroque composers.


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## DavidA

Couchie said:


> It's very unique and memorable. That rules out most Baroque composers.


Oh dear! Are you losing your memory then?


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## Couchie

DavidA said:


> Oh dear! Are you losing your memory then?


Nope. Recall that most Baroque composers were merely completing their "day job".


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## quack

This thread http://classicalmusicmayhem.freefor...occata-fugue-in-d-minor-bwv-565-t1818-30.html has a good summary of the scholarship on the question.

The stature of Bach tends to obscure the entire musical landscape of the time, just as Shakespeare's stature can hide the literary life of tudor England. We often don't regard these figures are merely the greatest exponents of the age in which there is a hotbed of talent producing works, sharing ideas, collaborating and building on other's work. There is the lure of the image of the solitary genius creating works beyond and outside their time but it is rarely completely true. Any one of the almost forgotten composers, talented organists or students (of Bach or others) could potentially have written it and without an autograph score the question will never really be answered.

Another one of Bach's most famous works, the aria _"Bist du bei mir"_ from the Notebook for Anna Magdalena Bach, is at least in part the work of Gottfried Stölzel, but it isn't even clear how much of that is Stölzel's work and how much it might have been edited by Bach or Anna. It's probably a good thing Stölzel isn't very famous, over 1000 cantatas and 18 operas, that woulld be quite some pricey boxset.


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## StlukesguildOhio

We often don't regard these figures are merely the greatest exponents of the age in which there is a hotbed of talent producing works, sharing ideas, collaborating and building on other's work. There is the lure of the image of the solitary genius creating works beyond and outside their time but it is rarely completely true.

This may be true of the novice, but certainly anyone delving into a given musical period is aware that every towering genius such as Bach or Mozart was surrounded by numerous lesser talents that were quite skillful and capable of producing the occasional masterpiece if not an entire body of quite good work. There is also an awareness that these composers often engaged in a dialog with each other... in person... and in their art.


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## GGluek

James Mason wrote it, while cruising around on the Nautilus.


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## Kieran

Donald Pleasance wrote that music, while stroking his cat...


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## Arsakes

No the real composer name was Jovan Zevastian Wach!


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## ScipioAfricanus

parallel octaves and fifths hmmmmm definitely not Bach. More like someone else imitating Bach and created a great fluke.


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## KenOC

If Bach didn't write the BWV 565, then he's one of at least two composers whose most popular work was actually written by somebody else...


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## tdc

KenOC said:


> If Bach didn't write the BWV 565, then he's one of at least two composers whose most popular work was actually written by somebody else...


Is this really Bach's most popular work? That is news to me. Maybe this is the case with the general public but I doubt its the favorite among classical music aficionados. Its never really stood out to me. Personally it wouldn't surprise me if it is by a different composer as most of Bach's works do have a certain something that makes me want to hear them again and again. To me all though that piece has some redeemable qualities for the most part it is rather unmemorable (not necessarily bad, but extremely average by Bach's standards). It wouldn't make the slightest bit of difference to me whether or not that piece was by Bach or not, because when I think of the great works by J.S., that is not a work that comes to mind. I personally wouldn't put it even in the same league as the Passacaglia and Fugue in C minor, the Chromatic Fantasy and Fugue, the Goldberg Variations, the Partitas etc etc.


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## KenOC

tdc said:


> Is this really Bach's most popular work? That is news to me. Maybe this is the case with the general public...


That's what "popular" means to me.


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## Novelette

Whoever wrote it, I endlessly prefer the BWV 543 Prelude & Fugue, both the original and the Liszt transcription.

I have always preferred it to the D Minor Toccata & Fugue


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## KenOC

Re "popular": An 1801 notice of Beethoven's Op. 18 quartets in the AMZ. "Among the new works being published here, excellent works by Beethoven stand out. Three quartets serve as sufficient proof of his art. However, they have to be played very often and very well since they are very difficult to execute and by no means popular."


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## Novelette

Luckily, I can and _do_ listen to them often!


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## KenOC

Novelette said:


> Luckily, I can and _do_ listen to them often!


It's interesting that reviews of that era for chamber music or sonatas always discuss the difficulty of performance and the quality of engraving and printing. People bought music to perform, not to listen to. How times change! For the better? Well...


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## tdc

KenOC said:


> That's what "popular" means to me.


Well, I didn't actually ask for a definition of popular, as I said: "_maybe_ that is the case with the general public". In other words, I am admitting it is possible, but would still be somewhat surprised. May I ask what makes you believe this is Bach's most popular work?

edit - according to this site you are right:

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080917183116AASQ52U

I am surprised and I stand corrected.


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## KenOC

tdc said:


> Well, I didn't actually ask for a definition of popular, as I said: "_maybe_ that is the case with the general public". In other words, I am admitting it is possible, but would still be somewhat surprised. May I ask what makes you believe this is Bach's most popular work?


Per Wiki, "the piece quickly became popular, and is now one of the most famous works in the organ repertoire... The work was first published by Breitkopf & Härtel in late 1833 as part of a collection of Bach's organ works. The edition was conceived and partly prepared by Felix Mendelssohn, who had BWV 565 in his repertoire already by 1830... Later in the 19th century, Franz Liszt adopted the piece into his organ repertoire, and a piano transcription was made by Liszt's pupil Carl Tausig, which gained substantial fame. Another popular transcription was completed in 1899 by Ferruccio Busoni. In the 20th century, an orchestral version of the piece, created by Leopold Stokowski, popularized the work further when it was included in Walt Disney's film Fantasia, released in 1940."

This without mentioning Captain Nemo or Vincent Price! I suppose one or the other of the chorales *might* be equally popular but I doubt it. If you have evidence that the BWV 565 is NOT Bach's most popular work, that would be very welcome.

Added: Just saw the addition to your post. The short list from Yahoo sounds about right. But (like you) I wonder how they determined that!


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## tdc

KenOC said:


> If you have evidence that the BWV 565 is NOT Bach's most popular work, that would be very welcome.


See my previous post again (I edited at the same time you posted)


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## KenOC

tdc said:


> See my previous post again (I edited at the same time you posted)


I admit to a failing. When I *think* something to be true, I will defend that position vigorously. But when my view is endorsed by a doubtful authority (Yahoo in this case) I begin to wonder: Could I be wrong? :lol:


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## Novelette

In a related note, the famous Minuet in G Major [and G Minor!] from the "Notebook" is now widely believed to have been composed by Christian Petzold rather than J.S. Bach.


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## Papapod

*How unique is it*



Couchie said:


> It's very unique and memorable. That rules out most Baroque composers.


Glad to hear it is "very" as opposed to "relatively" unique


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## millionrainbows

KenOC said:


> I admit to a failing. When I *think* something to be true, I will defend that position vigorously. But when my view is endorsed by a doubtful authority (Yahoo in this case) I begin to wonder: Could I be wrong? :lol:


No, Ken, you're not a failure, no matter what the authorities say. :lol:


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## Guest

You guys do know that the last posts were almost 2 years ago?


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## hpowders

If it was proven definitively that Bach didn't compose it, would you therefore stop listening to it?


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## BillT

I am heartbroken.


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## Fagotterdammerung

There is no Bach. "Bach" is really just an acronym for the Buxtehude Association Composers' Headquarters. Why do you think he has so many different first names? It was a collective. 

Next you'll be telling me that Hamlet wasn't written by Marlowe. :lol:


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## scratchgolf

hpowders said:


> If it was proven definitively that Bach didn't compose it, would you therefore stop listening to it?


If it were proven he did compose it, I may start listening to it.


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## ahammel

DrMike said:


> You guys do know that the last posts were almost 2 years ago?


There seems to have been a spate of necromancy lately.


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## crazy pianist

Vivaldi said:


> The attribution of the Toccata and Fugue in D minor to Bach has been challenged since the 1970s by a number of scholars. There are atypical features throughout the piece and even frankly broken chords. For some time there were theories that it was the product of a young and adventurous Bach, or that it was in fact a piece meant as an organ test.. There's the name -- Bach's generation would have called it "Praeludium et fuga," not Toccata and Fugue -- and a progression of notes Bach never would have allowed.
> 
> "Bach's greatest inspiration is invariably revealed through his complete mastery of the 'rules,' "
> The evidence of rule-breaking includes doubling at the octave and the curious minor cadence that ends the Toccata, both not heard elsewhere in Bach's organ output (usually even a work in a minor key concludes with a major chord). The Toccata also brims with harmony and counterpoint bordering on simplistic for the masterful composer.
> 
> "No other Bach fugue contains such feeble part-writing," writes Fox-LeFriche, citing the "complete absence of contrasting rhythm, contrary motion or a least a few notes that don't slavishly follow the subject."
> 
> In short, the Toccata and Fugue approaches nothing Bach ever wrote for the organ, or ever wrote at all.
> 
> "It is certainly very different than any of his organ works," says Don Fellows, organist at St. Paul Cathedral in Oakland. "There are parts that don't fit the hands."
> 
> So if Bach did not write the Toccata and Fugue, then who did?


i am telling that because i am one of the biggest bach fan i played over 20 pieces to bach and vivaldi 4 seasons when i hear toccata i can't imagine someone other than bach composing it just hear it and see the following of the music rules bach is only different by 1 thing his pieces feelings are very very hidden to the point i needed to play piece over 40 times over and over to only see what he meant in 1 part and that is what i see in toccata just notes playing in a beautiful way but his emotions are hidden this is BACH this is his style and his type and i am sure it is bach who composed it


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## crazy pianist

ScipioAfricanus said:


> parallel octaves and fifths hmmmmm definitely not Bach. More like someone else imitating Bach and created a great fluke.


lol? can't bach write another type too ? the god of classic music can't write different types ? well i think he can and he wanted to show some kind of...hm...speciallity for toccata


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## Subkontraposaunenbass

This is an old thread, so mind me for reawakening it but I want to share some input that hasn't been considered at all here.

Bach had very close students of his during the later years of his own life, one of these students took the very bombastic side of Bach, as well as his contrapuntal tendencies, his name was Johann Ludwig Krebs. Stylistically, Johann Ludwig Krebs very much fits/matches BWV 565, if anyone were to have written the BWV 565 other than Bach, I have no doubt it'd be Krebs himself.

Bach was usually not sought after during his time and the only person to have ever followed closely to his teachings throughout their life was Johann Ludwig krebs till the death of Bach. He composed baroque music even during the time of Mozart, the late 1700s. He struggled to make a living due to his outdated music choices but he still persisted till death.

Krebs is very much a modernized Baroque compared to that of the 1600-1700s, another reason why I think he is the true contender for the Toccata & Fugue if not written by Bach.

Here is a 11 minute fugue he composed: (Impressive, the influence is undeniable)




Prelude to the fugue: 





That being said, I do not think it is a coincidence that this piece out of all Bach pieces somehow belongs to Johann Ludwig Krebs, in fact I think it is very likely pieces BWV553 to 560 are Krebs. Catalogues during the time were quite disorganized, the possibility is not that unlikely.

The other possibility is that it is an organ transcription, originally for the violin written by Bach or transcribed to violin by Bach, then transcribed by Felix or his pupil to organ.


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## premont

Subkontraposaunenbass said:


> The other possibility is that it is an organ transcription, originally for the violin written by Bach or transcribed to violin by Bach, then transcribed by Felix or his pupil to organ.


Which Felix? Mendelssohn? Certainly not, because the only existing manuscript of BWV 565 was made by Johannes Ringk (1717 - 1778). Mendelssohn was born 1809.

The idea, that BWV 565 originally was a piece for a string instrument (not necessarily a violin) seems plausible because of the one-voiced toccata and the rather violinistic writing of the fugue (compare eg the figurations of the first movement of the third Brandenburg concerto with the figurations of the interludes of the BWV 565 fugue, both very energetic in much the same way, and IMO very Bachian). The original BWV 565 for stringed instrument may well have been written by Bach, but it's more dubious who arranged it for organ, since the organ writing is a bit amateurish at times. But the answer to this question isn't that important.


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## Tarneem

Subkontraposaunenbass said:


> if anyone were to have written the BWV 565 other than Bach, I have no doubt it'd be Krebs himself.


me too.

I always felt that the fugue lack the spiritual element that we usually see in Bach's organ work.


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## premont

Tarneem said:


> me too.
> 
> I always felt that the fugue lack the spiritual element that we usually see in Bach's organ work.


Its integrity and urgent drive however is very Bachian. And there are a number of authenticated - particularly youthful - other Bach organ fugues with less spectacular spirituality (BWV 531, 549, 564 & 566)


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