# The most high Atonal musical piece every written..... Your thoughts



## EddieRUKiddingVarese (Jan 8, 2013)

Discussion on what you may nominate as the most Atonal piece of music every written. 

Now this is not seeking to find your favourite or least favourite (although it might be), or comments on this genre- for sanities sake.

Just what you find to be the most atonal piece you have heard.....

Could be Schoenberg, Webern, Varese, John Cage etc who ever, up to you.


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## Weston (Jul 11, 2008)

Frank Zappa - "Weasels Ripped My Flesh" (the track, not the album).

Now that that is out of the way, my more serious answer might be George Crumb's _Black Angels_, at least the opening movement.


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## EddieRUKiddingVarese (Jan 8, 2013)

Weston said:


> Frank Zappa - "Weasels Ripped My Flesh" (the track, not the album).
> 
> Now that that is out of the way, my more serious answer might be George Crumb's _Black Angels_, at least the opening movement.


Both are good choices, Black Angels is very interesting and Weasels is such a strong piece.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Weston said:


> Frank Zappa - "Weasels Ripped My Flesh" (the track, not the album).
> 
> Now that that is out of the way, my more serious answer might be George Crumb's _Black Angels_, at least the opening movement.


Can't be right. I like 'em both.


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## EddieRUKiddingVarese (Jan 8, 2013)

Ah the conversion has started.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Hey, isn't 4'33" atonal? I mean, no tones at all? And it's my absolute favorite piece by Cage!

Shoot, now _some guy _or BD is going to be all over my case...


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## EddieRUKiddingVarese (Jan 8, 2013)

KenOC said:


> Hey, isn't 4'33" atonal? I mean, no tones at all? And it's my absolute favorite piece by Cage!
> 
> Shoot, now _some guy _or BD is going to be all over my case...


I guess you could say it was atonal or tonal for that matter- I'd watch out for BD...... if I was you too. But you did say you liked Black Angels & Weasels Ripped My Flesh.


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## aleazk (Sep 30, 2011)

lol, well, I don't think that it can be more atonal than integral serialism: 






For some reason, Boulez is the canon for me with respect to atonal, lol:


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## Prodromides (Mar 18, 2012)

EddieRUKiddingVarese said:


> every written.


Have no idea what's the most atonal musical work ever written. 

One of the most dense or opaque pieces of serial atonal compositions is, IMO, "The Return of Odysseus" (1942) by Nikos Skalkottas. This opus begs for multiple revisits simply in order to follow what's going on during this piece's duration.
Must have listened to it about 5 or 6 times and still I haven't been able to gain much traction on it.

I feel certain there's more complex or difficult music than "The Return of Odysseus", but this is what first comes to my mind.
Phrases such as "most atonal" or "highly atonal" may not be ideal descriptions, anyway. If a piece of music is atonal then it is atonal. Rather than graft degrees onto atonality, atonal works might be better described with terms like "thorny" or "uncompromising" or "tough nut to crack", etc. regarding their approachability to listeners.
Highly chromatic and/or polyphonic could be the equivalent (in a layman's perspective) to the density of musical work (correct me, though, if I'm off the mark here).

I think another fine specimen of highly detailed & austere atonal music is the film score to LADY IN A CAGE (1964) by Paul Glass.

http://www.kritzerland.com/ladycage.htm


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## EddieRUKiddingVarese (Jan 8, 2013)

^ Yes very valid correction- atonal musical work ever written, sloppy typing there 

Paul Glass interesting choice again, sounds a bit like Varese in elements to me. Lady in a Cage but not John Cage or Philip Glass hey.


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## aleazk (Sep 30, 2011)

^^of course you are right, "atonal" has no degree. The piece is atonal or not. But I think the OP was just asking about some subjective perception. For example, I find those pieces by Boulez I mentioned as more "atonal" than some pieces by Schoenberg, despite the fact that in both cases, generally, the harmony is serialized. It's just a perception, surely related with the fact that Schoenberg tried to maintain some aspects of previous music while Boulez is trying to avoid them.


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## rrudolph (Sep 15, 2011)

What a strange question! Would one ask "who's more tonal, Bach or Mozart?"

Also, are you asking solely about music constructed of tones from the conventional equal-tempered scale or are you including microtonal music (without an obvious pitch center) and/or music made from non-pitched materials?


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## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

I think something like Penderecki's Threnody for the Victims of Hiroshima, which does not depend in any way on the exact pitches used for the majority of the composition, deserves this title.






Although Boulez's integral serialist period (which I thought was limited to pieces like Structures 1 and Polyphonie X that predated the Second Sonata) is a good candidate as well.


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## Guest (Feb 13, 2013)

rrudolph has nailed it again.

Which means his/her comments will be either ignored or excoriated. Ah cyberspace.

But really. "Would one ask 'who's more tonal, Bach or Mozart?'"

Of course not.

The twentieth century, when some perfectly ordinary music began to be seen as a hideous aberration.

The twenty-first century, when one particular decades-old* controversy about perfectly ordinary music gets air time as _the_ controversy about music.

Is the real question "what is the most aberrant music ever written?" Possibly. Though the responses seem to be divided pretty equally between answering this question, "what is the most discordant** music ever written?" and this one, "what is the densest music ever written?" Which, so far as I have been able to gather from my time on online forums, are two variants of the first question, discords and density being two examples of aberrations.

*Ten decades, to be exact.

**Almost always using the (techically) wrong term, dissonant.


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## StlukesguildOhio (Dec 25, 2006)

The twentieth century, when some perfectly ordinary music began to be seen as a hideous aberration.

or... The Twentieth Century, when some hideous aberrations began to be seen as perfectly ordinary music?


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## EddieRUKiddingVarese (Jan 8, 2013)

rrudolph said:


> What a strange question! Would one ask "who's more tonal, Bach or Mozart?"
> 
> Also, are you asking solely about music constructed of tones from the conventional equal-tempered scale or are you including microtonal music (without an obvious pitch center) and/or music made from non-pitched materials?


Me -does not really matter what I think, its what the individual thinks and I would say the choice is yours, as in the ear of the beholder, (hows that for an atonal answer).

But I would say if you wanted to include works by say Harry Partch or any other modern or Avant Garde composers in this discussion - that would be fine.

And by the way, if you want to try and judge the most "tonal" composer, be my guest. Maybe that question/ query goes to show something about the way tonal and atonal music is perceived.


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## EddieRUKiddingVarese (Jan 8, 2013)

some guy said:


> rrudolph has nailed it again.
> 
> Which means his/her comments will be either ignored or excoriated. Ah cyberspace.
> 
> ...


One man's (persons) trash is anothers treasure................


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## Weston (Jul 11, 2008)

aleazk said:


> For some reason, Boulez is the canon for me with respect to atonal, lol:


I'm not sure this piece fits the criteria. I almost sort of somewhat have vague hints of ideas on how one might by the remotest stretch of someone else's imagination see how another person might -- dare I say it? -- _enjoy_ minute sections of it, just the tiniest bit, and I would not feel compelled to take out extra home owner's insurance to feel safe playing the video.


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## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

Weston said:


> I'm not sure this piece fits the criteria. I almost sort of somewhat have vague hints of ideas on how one might by the remotest stretch of someone else's imagination see how another person might -- dare I say it? -- _enjoy_ minute sections of it, just the tiniest bit, and I would not feel compelled to take out extra home owner's insurance to feel safe playing the video.


I enjoy Boulez, especially later Boulez. How does that make it less atonal?


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## EddieRUKiddingVarese (Jan 8, 2013)

^ I for one like it

"Some people... some people like cupcakes exclusively, while myself, I say 
There is naught nor ought there be nothing so exalted on the face of gods grey 
Earth as that prince of foods... the muffin!"


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## Il_Penseroso (Nov 20, 2010)

Erwartung, Die glückliche Hand.


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## Andolink (Oct 29, 2012)

Enactments for 3 pianos by Stefan Wolpe or Structures I and II for piano by Boulez or the Piano Concerto No. 4 for solo piano by Michael Finnissy are all incredibly dense thickets of extreme dissonance. Stockhausen's Klavierstucke X is another example.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

I interpret the rather naive thread question in my own sophisticated way, thus legitimizing the query with this reply. Boulez' Sonatine for flute and piano is a work which seeks to "destroy" the old order, just as punk rock sought to destroy the bombast of ELP, Yes, and Pink Floyd. Musical phrasing is carefully avoided, replaced by sonic gestures: banging clusters on the piano, overblown flute insults, and an "in-your-face" attitude exemplifying the "Search and Destroy" credo of proto-punk band The Stooges.
The alienated, insulted look of the audience says it all.


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## Weston (Jul 11, 2008)

^Literally laughing out loud. Iggy would just punch you in the face.

Actually I'm kind of liking parts of this too. Is Boulez sneaking up on me?


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

Here's an excellent chapter introduction I thought I'd share with you, from "Analytic Approaches to Twentieth Century Music" by Joel Lester, p. 189:

"Though the series may provide much of the structural basis of a twelve-tone piece, you should not assume that hearing the series and all its permutations is necessary to understand or enjoy twelve-tone music. It is difficult enough for a listener to remember a twelve-tone series apart from a composition, even after repeated hearings. And it is certainly impossible for anyone to remember forty-eight forms of that series and recognize them as their pitch-classes appear in melodies and harmonies, and when two or more series-forms may appear simultaneously.
As a matter of fact, labeling series in a score and trying to hear those series in the music (were that possible) is a rather poor way to try to learn about this music. Composers such as Schoenberg, Berg, Webern, and Stravinsky did not compose twelve-tone music to construct unhearable complexities. They adopted this system because it enabled them to control certain aspects of musical structure while it left their creative imaginations free to deal with those aspects they were already exploring in their earlier music."

Brahms come to mind; I think that he is enjoyable to many who simply "listen," even though there are other 'motivic' things going on behind the gloss. We don't tend to question Brahms like we might question Berg or Webern.


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## EddieRUKiddingVarese (Jan 8, 2013)

^"destroy the bombast of ELP, Yes, and Pink Floyd"

You defect your on argument with such statement- all you need to do is replace ELP, Yes and Pink Floyd with those still clinging to Mozart, Brahms and Andrew Lloyd Weber  

And what wrong with sonic gestures and banging clusters, sounds better to me than smooooth romantic tonal melodies lol.
PS Iggy is still around and doing quite well for himself - isn't he..........


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## Weston (Jul 11, 2008)

EddieRUKiddingVarese said:


> PS Iggy is still around and doing quite well for himself - isn't he..........


Correct, but so is ELP, Yes and Pink Floyd in one incarnation or another. Their "destruction" was short lived.


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## aleazk (Sep 30, 2011)

millionrainbows said:


> Here's an excellent chapter introduction I thought I'd share with you, from "Analytic Approaches to Twentieth Century Music" by Joel Lester, p. 189:
> 
> "Though the series may provide much of the structural basis of a twelve-tone piece, you should not assume that hearing the series and all its permutations is necessary to understand or enjoy twelve-tone music. It is difficult enough for a listener to remember a twelve-tone series apart from a composition, even after repeated hearings. And it is certainly impossible for anyone to remember forty-eight forms of that series and recognize them as their pitch-classes appear in melodies and harmonies, and when two or more series-forms may appear simultaneously.
> As a matter of fact, labeling series in a score and trying to hear those series in the music (were that possible) is a rather poor way to try to learn about this music. Composers such as Schoenberg, Berg, Webern, and Stravinsky did not compose twelve-tone music to construct unhearable complexities. They adopted this system because it enabled them to control certain aspects of musical structure while it left their creative imaginations free to deal with those aspects they were already exploring in their earlier music."
> ...


In my personal case, I can easily distinguish if the composer is using tone series, but I don't think I can actually recognize the series in question (I mean, just listening, without the score). Also, it is not in my intentions as a listener to recognize them, I agree with that statement.


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## EddieRUKiddingVarese (Jan 8, 2013)

Weston said:


> Correct, but so is ELP, Yes and Pink Floyd in one incarnation or another. Their "destruction" was short lived.


Quite True- but I must day I never did like ELP much, way too bombastic and interpretive(borrowed - being polite there), of classic standards.


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## EddieRUKiddingVarese (Jan 8, 2013)

Il_Penseroso said:


> Erwartung, Die glückliche Hand.


Убедитесь стороны, mighter, чем меч?


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## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

aleazk said:


> In my personal case, I can easily distinguish if the composer is using tone series, but I don't think I can actually recognize the series in question (I mean, just listening, without the score). Also, it is not in my intentions as a listener to recognize them, I agree with that statement.


A lot of the arguments I've seen against atonal music argue against the comprehensibility of the tone row, which, as Millions' quote points out, is not really relevant. A particular tone row is kind of like a key in that it provides a "sound" for the piece that stays more or less consistent. I have the score for Schoenberg's String Quartet 3 right now, and I'm not bothering with looking for row transpositions/manipulations. I'm getting more out of the polyphony and the motivic writing.


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## EddieRUKiddingVarese (Jan 8, 2013)

I don't think this helps much........ but is pleasant enough

[video]http://www.ehow.com/video_12223561_difference-between-tonal-atonal-music.html[/video]


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

Mahlerian said:


> A lot of the arguments I've seen against atonal music argue against the comprehensibility of the tone row, which, as Millions' quote points out, is not really relevant. A particular tone row is kind of like a key in that it provides a "sound" for the piece that stays more or less consistent. I have the score for Schoenberg's String Quartet 3 right now, and I'm not bothering with looking for row transpositions/manipulations. I'm getting more out of the polyphony and the motivic writing.


Yeah, a good analogy would be "looking for the major scale in Mozart." Like serialism, it ain't gonna be quoted in its entirety.


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