# Critical Overstatements



## Hausmusik (May 13, 2012)

In another thread we have been discussing Bernstein's (in the view of some) exaggerated criticisms of Beethoven in a video that can be found on YouTube. This thread is a place for us to memorialize critical hyperbole--both positive and negative. I imagine Glenn Gould quotations will be plentiful.

For starters:

"Dvorák's Trio in F minor, Op. 65, is quite simply the finest piano trio since Beethoven." _--David Hurwitz_


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

"The Prelude to the Afternoon of a Faun has pretty sonority, but one does not find in it the least musical idea... Debussy did not create a style; he cultivated an absence of style, logic, and common sense." -- _Camille Saint-Saëns_


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## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

René Leibowitz famously called Sibelius the "worst composer in the world."


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## Novelette (Dec 12, 2012)

"It would be difficult to find a failure of imagination greater than that of Czerny." -- Robert Schumann


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## Weston (Jul 11, 2008)

I might agree with Schumann on that one ^


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## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

"If Mahler's dazzling exploits as conductor had not revealed to us a refined musician endowed with exquisite taste and versed in all the most varied styles, listening to his symphony [No. 1] would not have told us so. Given the title "Symphonic Poem" and our talented conductor's confirmed penchant for the most advanced neoromanticism, we certainly should have expected extravagances of all sorts. But we had the right to hope that we should hear, at least in that direction, something interesting and significant. Instead, we have encountered music that, aside from some bizarrerie in the domains of melody, harmony, and orchestration, never, even during its best moments, rises above the most mediocre level[....]If we were to sum up all these notations in one general impression, we should have to state that not only Mahler the conductor belongs in the first rank of his profession, but he resembles the others in that he is nothing of a symphonist. All of our great conductors--Richter, Bulow, Mottl, Levi, Wullner, etc.--either have themselves eventually recognized, or have proved, that they were not composers. Nor have their reputations suffered. This is true of Mahler also...When Erkel returned to the podium at the end of the concert, the applause almost took on the character of a demonstration: the public thus manifested its gratitude toward a conductor who does not compose."

- Viktor von Herzfeld, one of Mahler's closest friends, on the premiere performance of his first symphony


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

The Rite of Spring: "...the expression of one who is fundamentally a barbarian and a primitive, tinctured with, and educated in, the utmost sophistications and satieties of a worn-out civilization." --Olin Downes, 1924

Is there some truth in that?


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## tdc (Jan 17, 2011)

When Faure called the last movement of Ravel's monumental String Quartet a 'failure'.


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## tdc (Jan 17, 2011)

A pianist that reminds me a bit of Glenn Gould both in some of his unique interpretations and also for his controversial views on some major composers is *Samson Francois*. Here are some of his thoughts on Beethoven, Mozart and Brahms.

_"Beethoven's sonatas bore me with their literary turn and their pianistic inadequacies. Mozart? I consider it fruitless to trouble a huge piano with sonatinas. And why do I have a physical horror of Brahms? My fingers ache at the thought of him. He moves by a series of fitful flashes and abortive effusions; he never reaches the end of anything." _


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## EddieRUKiddingVarese (Jan 8, 2013)

I like Leo Tolstoy's criticism - "Is such music needed by anyone? I must tell you how I dislike it all. *Beethoven* is nonsense, Pushkin and Lermontov also" - Leo


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## Nereffid (Feb 6, 2013)

Deems Taylor, reviewing a 1923 performance of Mahler's 7th Symphony:

"emphatically the most stupid piece of music that we ever heard".


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## superhorn (Mar 23, 2010)

In his review of a performance of the Sibelius 2nd symphony by the New York Philharmonic under (later) Sir John Barbirolli in th early 1940s , Vurgil Thomson called the work , "vulgar, provinical and self-indulgent ".
Thomson hated the music of Sibelius , which at the time was enjoying great popularity at concerts everywhere in America and England . This was most likely envy and sour grapes, because he felt his own music was being neglected by the NY Phil. 
To add insult to injury , Thoson arrogantly and presumptuously declared that this isolated concert proved that the NY Phil. "was not part of New York's intellectual life ". Apparently according to Thomson, the orhcestra could only be "part of New York's intellectual life " if it played music he liked .
This review, or more accurately temper tantrum , caused the orchestra to be defamed for decades .
Many other critics and so-called experts blindly accepted Thomson's idiotic and grossly unfair claim blindly , and kept on reasserting it . So no matter what the orchestra would play, people still assumed the orchestra was not part of New York's intellectual life .
And critics today still unfairly accuse the New York philharmonic of being a "stodgy and hidebound" orchestra which does little but recycle the same old tired warhorses . Nothing could be farther from the truth .
In fact,it's difficult to think of any orchestra anywhere which has offered such varied and interesting programming, whether under music directors or guest conductors .
In the past 40 or 50 years or so, the orchestra has regularly performed new or recent works by virtually every important composer of the 20th and early 21st century , including challenging works which many other orchestras would not dare program for fear of alienating conservative audiences .
The Philharmonic does play the established masterpieces of the orchestral repertoire, but so do orchestras everywhere . It has also played many,many interesting obscure works from the fringes of the orchestral repertoire .


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## mmsbls (Mar 6, 2011)

The famous music critic, Eduard Hanslick, said of Tchaikovsky's Violin Concerto:

"Such is also his latest, long and pretentious Violin Concerto…[by] the end of the first movement, the violin is no longer played; it is beaten black and blue....Tchaikovsky's Violin Concerto gives us for the first time the hideous notion that there can be music that stinks to the ear."

I've seen many quotes like these, and I've always assumed that these people criticized much lessor works and composers in a similar manner. But I wonder if they chose to use over-the-top language mostly for major composers for effect. We look back and think these remarks are ludicrous, but perhaps they realized the game they were playing. "I don't like this piece, and I want to get noticed so I'll play this up to a ridiculous extent."


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## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

mmsbls said:


> The famous music critic, Eduard Hanslick, said of Tchaikovsky's Violin Concerto:
> 
> "Such is also his latest, long and pretentious Violin Concerto…[by] the end of the first movement, the violin is no longer played; it is beaten black and blue....Tchaikovsky's Violin Concerto gives us for the first time the hideous notion that there can be music that stinks to the ear."
> 
> I've seen many quotes like these, and I've always assumed that these people criticized much lessor works and composers in a similar manner. But I wonder if they chose to use over-the-top language mostly for major composers for effect. We look back and think these remarks are ludicrous, but perhaps they realized the game they were playing. "I don't like this piece, and I want to get noticed so I'll play this up to a ridiculous extent."


I doubt it. I think they really believed what they wrote. Tchaikovsky was not considered a major composer by some critics at the time (and anti-Tchaikovsky sentiment persists in academic circles to this day). I recall an American review of the fourth that said that the music was very Russian, and thus very barbaric.

Remember that at the beginning of the 20th century, in Germany Pfitzner was a far more critically admired composer than Mahler.


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## SiegendesLicht (Mar 4, 2012)

KenOC said:


> The Rite of Spring: "...the expression of one who is fundamentally a barbarian and a primitive, tinctured with, and educated in, the utmost sophistications and satieties of a worn-out civilization." --Olin Downes, 1924
> 
> Is there some truth in that?


That sounds good, I'll have to listen to Rite of Spring next.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

mmsbls said:


> "Such is also his latest, long and pretentious Violin Concerto…[by] the end of the first movement, the violin is no longer played; it is beaten black and blue....Tchaikovsky's Violin Concerto gives us for the first time the hideous notion that there can be music that stinks to the ear."


The full Hanslick review is quite long. Tchaikovsky could recite the whole thing from memory, bitterly, to the end of his life.


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## Rapide (Oct 11, 2011)

Hausmusik said:


> In another thread we have been discussing Bernstein's (in the view of some) exaggerated criticisms of Beethoven in a video that can be found on YouTube. This thread is a place for us to memorialize critical hyperbole--both positive and negative. I imagine Glenn Gould quotations will be plentiful.
> 
> For starters:
> 
> "Dvorák's Trio in F minor, Op. 65, is quite simply the finest piano trio since Beethoven." _--David Hurwitz_


Bernstein was a fine conductor but he did make stupid comments. (But so did many, including my favourite, Monsieur Boulez.)


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

Mahlerian said:


> ...If we were to sum up all these notations in one general impression, we should have to state that not only Mahler the conductor belongs in the first rank of his profession, but he resembles the others in that he is nothing of a symphonist. .... This is true of Mahler also...When Erkel returned to the podium at the end of the concert, the applause almost took on the character of a demonstration: the public thus manifested its gratitude toward a conductor who does not compose."
> 
> - Viktor von Herzfeld, one of Mahler's closest friends, on the premiere performance of his first symphony


Well I know that Mahler was not liked by a nationalist clique in Budapest, who eventually forced him out, because he was a foreigner (unlike Erkel mentioned in your quote, who was 'pure' Magyar). Of course added to that is Mahler's Jewish heritage, which would not have gone down well either in a country renowned for its anti-Semitism (as where other parts of the Habsburg Empire, and those countries still rank amongst the most anti-Semitic on the planet). So there where ulterior motives there, apart from purely musical reasons. I'm sure if Mahler had been Hungarian, he would have been praised to no end by his detractors in Budapest. In any case, that place was a mere stepping stone for Mahler, he had his eye on the big apple, Vienna. Budapest was a mere backwater by comparison. They should have been thankful for the premiere of such a significant work, but hey, its like casting pearls before swine. Many know my opinion of that culture, its mainly negative, and I'll leave it at that. That the likes of Mahler and Bruckner could somehow do what they did in this kind of hostile context is a miracle. Maybe it is for many such composers whose music we admire.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

Hausmusik said:


> ...
> 
> For starters:
> 
> "Dvorák's Trio in F minor, Op. 65, is quite simply the finest piano trio since Beethoven." _--David Hurwitz_


Well I think that Dvorak trio is a great work. But when you say things so categorically - eg. "is quite simply" - it smacks of hyperbole (& maybe pretension?). So I'd say it is definitely one of the finest piano trios since Beethoven, not THE finest.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

A famous one by *Hugo Wolf *- with his critic's hat on - is this one about that pivotal moment in Bruckner's 7th symphony:

"One single cymbal clash by Bruckner is worth all four symphonies of Brahms with the serenades thrown in."

Wolf did himself no favours with this comment, Brahms retracted his previous support of his music. Wolf sided with the Bruckner side of the Hanslick vs Bruckner/Wagner turf wars in Vienna. Not a wise move since Brahms was a force to reckon with in Vienna, even though up to that time, Bruckner's 7th was his biggest success with critics and audiences overall. One critic said something to the effect that no symphony like this had been written since Beethoven. I bet that Herr Brahms was none too happy to hear that!


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## Novelette (Dec 12, 2012)

Weston said:


> I might agree with Schumann on that one ^


Czerny's music is extensive, yet we only really hear the etudes and the A Flat Major Sonata. But there's so much more, and almost all of it is remarkably good.

http://www.talkclassical.com/7855-carl-czerny.html


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

I've known Debussy's quote saying that Ravel had "the finest ear that ever existed" for a while now. But I didn't know he said it in relation to _Valses Nobles et Sentimentales_. Its my overall impression that people on this forum don't think much of this work. Is it true? So in other words, was Debussy making a 'cricital overstatement' when he said this? Surely in terms of orchestration at least, Ravel is easily among the best.



> Composed by Maurice Ravel in 1911, this set of eight waltzes was inspired conceptually by 19th century waltzes by Franz Schubert and Johann Strauss. The work beautifully reflects Ravel's daring early 20th-century style. It's subtle harmonies caused Debussy to comment, "It is the product of the finest ear that ever existed."


Source @ googlebooks:
http://books.google.com.au/books/ab...entimentales.html?id=c1pYXyLeFXsC&redir_esc=y


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

Novelette said:


> "It would be difficult to find a failure of imagination greater than that of Czerny." -- Robert Schumann


The only part of this I disagree with is the 'would be difficult' -- for the rest....


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## Crudblud (Dec 29, 2011)

Sid James said:


> I've known Debussy's quote saying that Ravel had "the finest ear that ever existed" for a while now. But I didn't know he said it in relation to _Valses Nobles et Sentimentales_. Its my overall impression that people on this forum don't think much of this work. Is it true?


I love it, personally.


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## Arsakes (Feb 20, 2012)

EddieRUKiddingVarese said:


> I like Leo Tolstoy's criticism - "Is such music needed by anyone? I must tell you how I dislike it all. *Beethoven* is nonsense, Pushkin and Lermontov also" - Leo


Dislike.
Tolstoy lost his respect for me.


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## Hausmusik (May 13, 2012)

Arsakes said:


> Dislike.
> Tolstoy lost his respect for me.


Always remember there are at a minimum two Tolstoys: the 40-something author of _Anna K _and _War and Peace_, and the crazy old hermit who detested Shakespeare and thought _Uncle Tom's Cabin _was the greatest of all novels. His _Kreutzer Sonata, _in which he rages against the immorality of Beethoven's music, was written as he neared his 70s, an age when many (not all) minds decline into trollish misandry and overweening dogmatism.


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## Novelette (Dec 12, 2012)

"A more unimaginative and empty music than that we find in Field's piano concertos can scarcely be imagined." - Tchaikovsky


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## Bargeon (Feb 21, 2013)

I like Sibelius comment on the critics: No statue has ever been erected to a critic.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

Lexicon of Musical Invective: Critical Assaults on Composers Since Beethoven's Time
Nicolas Slonimsky (Author), Peter Schickele (Author)


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## Hausmusik (May 13, 2012)

Bargeon said:


> I like Sibelius comment on the critics: No statue has ever been erected to a critic.


I didn't know that was Sibelius!--but of course definitely an overstatement.


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## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

"If ever magnificence was seen in the theatre, I doubt that it reached the level of splendour shown in Robert [le diable]...It is a masterpiece...Meyerbeer has made himself immortal" - Chopin


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