# Random musings on Don Giovanni



## katdad (Jan 1, 2009)

The other night, mostly on a whim, I grabbed my Don Giovanni, the very good 2000 Met recording w. Bryn Terfel as Don, Furlanetto as Leporello, the production directed by Zeffirelli.

Now I'm not arguing this as the best ever. I've only seen 2 others so I can't judge. Just that the singing and orchestra were sharp and crisp and immediate, the staging was also up-front and not ponderous.

It's a very enjoyable show, overall. Some may say that Terfel was too much wallowing in the character and at times I got this impression but after all, it's a genuine comic opera during which lots of silly things occur and nobody thinks it unusual. Where the famously amorous Don manages to.... hold a woman's hands, that's all?

Anyway, I enjoy this version, as it seems to understand the parody onstage and run with it.

One more thought... have you ever wondered about people whose only prior exposure to a Mozart opera came from the movie Amadeus, and then actually saw, oh, Giovanni or Nozze?

I mean, from the cranky and nutty ending of Giovanni shown in the movie, being totally unlike the actual opera? Ha.


----------



## Posie (Aug 18, 2013)

I am a huge fan of Bryn Terfel, but there is just something over-the-top icky about his Don G.

Amadeus actually turned me off of Don Giovanni for a long time. I had known the plot and had heard a couple of pieces, but then saw the "performance" of the ending in the film and thought "Was that the best they could do?" And then there was that ridiculous interpretation from Salieri to advance movie's plot. *shudder*


----------



## gellio (Nov 7, 2013)

That's what got me into opera. I saw through the Seraglio bits one night and ran out and bought a recording. The rest is history.


----------



## MagneticGhost (Apr 7, 2013)

I was so struck by the power of the Don Giovanni clip when I saw Amadeus that I went and bought the whole opera. Never looked back


----------



## Aramis (Mar 1, 2009)

My random musings on Don Giovanni:

I always wonder what exactly does the situation for Zerlina looks like when she screams at the party. Don Giovanni forced her to go with him outside the ballroom and she was silent, she knew what's going on but still. Then she suddenly screams.

So I got the picture that she wants to go with him and opposes just for pretense, then he draggs her to some chamber and pull his pants down and she sees his tool and is frightened by it because it's so very large and at this moment she screams UOO SCELLERATO!!!! 

Thank you for reading, hope I enriched your vision of Mozart's masterpiece


----------



## deggial (Jan 20, 2013)

^ maybe she screamed because he took her to his bedroom and she saw his teddy bear collection?


----------



## Jobis (Jun 13, 2013)

I liked the staging they did in Amadeus, the thundering footsteps were a fun addition. 

I don't think there's any reason to get snobby about how someone discovered opera, I think my first introduction to Don G. probably was Amadeus, but I don't feel ashamed about that. 

Not that I accuse anyone on this forum of snobbery


----------



## GioCar (Oct 30, 2013)

katdad said:


> ....I mean, from the cranky and nutty ending of Giovanni shown in the movie, being totally unlike the actual opera? Ha.


Of course the Don Giovanni production in the movie (Amadeus) is far from being the best, but actually it reflects the production made in Vienna after the premiere in Prague. The final scene, ending with the ensemble "questo è il fin di chi fa mal", was omitted for the first performance in Vienna (1788). That performance actually ended with Don Giovanni sinking into the earth/hell. This was a common practice till mid of the 20th century. Gustav Mahler, when conducting at the Vienna Opera House, folllowed that practice as well.


----------



## Couac Addict (Oct 16, 2013)

I haven't seen that film since it came out. Is it worth revisiting? After watching a clip on youtube, I think I know why Hulce's acting career didn't blossom.


----------



## Jobis (Jun 13, 2013)

Couac Addict said:


> I haven't seen that film since it came out. Is it worth revisiting? After watching a clip on youtube, I think I know why Hulce's acting career didn't blossom.


I'd give it a 9 out of 10 since its just so well made, of course you'll be disappointed if you expect it to be in the least bit factual, but its not trying to be a biography.


----------



## katdad (Jan 1, 2009)

"Amadeus" is flawed as are most bio films but the music is terrific, and of course F. Murray Abraham's performance as Salieri was astounding.

One of the most irritating errors in the film for me wasn't about Mozart but Emperor Franz Josef II, Mozart's main patron and friend. He's shown as an affable dunce and that's totally wrong. FJ2 was a brilliant man, highly educated by his mother (father FJ1 died when 2 was just a kid), and he was personally responsible for many social advances in Austria that prevented riots and possible revolution, remember this was during the American and French revolutionary times. A true egalitarian monarch who tried to rule for the best. And often went in the face of the aristocracy to support the new middle class.

But the music shown by him was also wrong, that he was not aware of his musical limits. He loved music and his court composers and was a decent amateur pianist, amateur composer, and knew full well his limits. Still, he loved to "sit in" on concert pieces where the composers would write intentionally scaled-down parts for him to play. And mostly, of course, he'd just be a big fan and patron in the audience. At no time did he consider himself anything but an enthusiastic amateur performer.

And the supposed criticism of Mozart, "too many notes" is often misunderstood. The full quote was "Too many notes, my dear Mozart --- for the Italians?" (teasing the Italian contingent of composers at court).


----------



## Couac Addict (Oct 16, 2013)

katdad said:


> "Amadeus" is flawed as are most bio films but the music is terrific, and of course F. Murray Abraham's performance as Salieri was astounding.
> 
> One of the most irritating errors in the film for me wasn't about Mozart but Emperor Franz Josef II, Mozart's main patron and friend. He's shown as an affable dunce and that's totally wrong. FJ2 was a brilliant man, highly educated by his mother (father FJ1 died when 2 was just a kid), and he was personally responsible for many social advances in Austria that prevented riots and possible revolution, remember this was during the American and French revolutionary times. A true egalitarian monarch who tried to rule for the best. And often went in the face of the aristocracy to support the new middle class.
> 
> ...


Too right but what you've just described would make a boring Hollywood flick... unless there's a twist at the end where Mozart discovers the truth about _Soylent Green_.


----------



## Revenant (Aug 27, 2013)

Couac Addict said:


> Too right but what you've just described would make a boring Hollywood flick... unless there's a twist at the end where Mozart discovers the truth about _Soylent Green_.


Mozart operas is people. Mozart operas are made with people.


----------



## Aramis (Mar 1, 2009)

Revenant said:


> Mozart operas is people. Mozart operas are made with people.


Well said, comrade, it shows the demise of spoiled elitist, Don Giovanni, who ends his days rightly persecuted by working class he opressed.


----------



## deggial (Jan 20, 2013)

^ he didn't say all characters in Mozart operas are equally important...


----------



## gellio (Nov 7, 2013)

katdad said:


> "Amadeus" is flawed as are most bio films but the music is terrific, and of course F. Murray Abraham's performance as Salieri was astounding.
> 
> One of the most irritating errors in the film for me wasn't about Mozart but Emperor Franz Josef II, Mozart's main patron and friend. He's shown as an affable dunce and that's totally wrong. FJ2 was a brilliant man, highly educated by his mother (father FJ1 died when 2 was just a kid), and he was personally responsible for many social advances in Austria that prevented riots and possible revolution, remember this was during the American and French revolutionary times. A true egalitarian monarch who tried to rule for the best. And often went in the face of the aristocracy to support the new middle class.
> 
> But the music shown by him was also wrong, that he was not aware of his musical limits. He loved music and his court composers and was a decent amateur pianist, amateur composer, and knew full well his limits. Still, he loved to "sit in" on concert pieces where the composers would write intentionally scaled-down parts for him to play. And mostly, of course, he'd just be a big fan and patron in the audience. At no time did he consider himself


----------



## gellio (Nov 7, 2013)

katdad said:


> "Amadeus" is flawed as are most bio films but the music is terrific, and of course F. Murray Abraham's performance as Salieri was astounding.
> 
> One of the most irritating errors in the film for me wasn't about Mozart but Emperor Franz Josef II, Mozart's main patron and friend. He's shown as an affable dunce and that's totally wrong. FJ2 was a brilliant man, highly educated by his mother (father FJ1 died when 2 was just a kid), and he was personally responsible for many social advances in Austria that prevented riots and possible revolution, remember this was during the American and French revolutionary times. A true egalitarian monarch who tried to rule for the best. And often went in the face of the aristocracy to support the new middle class.
> 
> ...


I didn't like that either. However, it was Joseph II in Amadeus, not Francis Joseph II. There was no Francis Joseph II. Francis Joseph I reigned from 1848 - 1916. Joseph II's father was Francis Stephen, who died when Joseph II was 24 years old. Joseph II was a great emperor. He was styled emperor because he assumed the throne of the Holy Roman Empire when Francis Stephen died. He was Archduke of Austria and King of Hungary, among many other titles. Austria was an Archduchy until Francis II established the Austrian Empire in 1804, becoming Francis I. He abdicated the throne and dissolved the Holy Roman Empire in 1806, during the Napoleonic Wars.


----------



## Pip (Aug 16, 2013)

My introduction to Don Giovanni was the old Paul Czinner film of the Salzburg production of 1954 conducted by Furtwängler.
Even allowing for the overage Zerlina of Erna Berger, the cast still takes some beating.
Cesare Siepi was one of the really great Dons . Sardonic, elegant, and a great voice to boot. Della Casa, Dermota et al and Furtwängler presiding over the whole thing, giving it a sense of gravitas, but without losing the humour.
I first saw this in 1963 as part of a schools project and has influenced my judgement of this work ever since. Saw other productions in London during the late sixties and seventies at SW and CG with Colin Davis. I have seen many others since! but the Furtwängler performance is the one I always return to, whether CD or DVD.
I prefer my DG to be the gentleman seducer rather than the ruffian.


----------



## ahammel (Oct 10, 2012)

katdad said:


> "Amadeus" is flawed as are most bio films...


Well, it isn't meant to be a biopic of Mozart.

I think a lot of the complaints I hear about the historical accuracy are wide of the mark. Yeah, the Mozart/Salieri rivalry is an invention, but that's kind of the point, innit? It's a secret history. In actual history, Mozart and Salieri had a mostly mutually respectful relationship, and in the movie Mozart and Salieri had a mostly mutually respectful relationship so far as anybody except Salieri knew.

Things like the myth that Mozart composed without making sketches are unfortunate, but are probably more a reflection of the scholarship available in 1979 than the laziness of the filmmakers.

The depiction of Mozart's personality is obviously an exaggeration, but we only see Mozart through the fictional Salieri's eyes, and he, of course, thinks the worst of Mozart because he is the embodiment of envy.

So yeah, it's a pretty good flick. I think I'll watch it again sometime.

Wait, wasn't this thread about _Don Giovanni_ at some point? I think I'm going to go in March. The Vancouver Opera looks to be putting on a pretty cool production.


----------



## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

If we _are _still talking about Don Giovanni, Beethoven had an opinion:

"Don Juan still has the complete Italian cut; besides our sacred art ought never permit itself to be degraded to the level of a foil for so scandalous a subject."


----------



## ahammel (Oct 10, 2012)

I hadn't thought of old Luigi as such a prude before.


----------



## Revenant (Aug 27, 2013)

Aramis said:


> Well said, comrade, it shows the demise of spoiled elitist, Don Giovanni, who ends his days rightly persecuted by working class he opressed.


Actually, I was thinking the other way around. His 'boccone da gigante' was people. And then the bigger elitist, the Commendatore comes to get him for stealing his dinner. And then Stalin and Putin devour everyone. That is in the unproduced third act.


----------



## deggial (Jan 20, 2013)

Pip said:


> Even allowing for the overage Zerlina of Erna Berger, the cast still takes some beating


long in the tooth or not, she was excellent.

totally agreed about the seducer DG vs the ruffian DG.


----------



## Dongiovanni (Jul 30, 2012)

marinasabina said:


> Amadeus actually turned me off of Don Giovanni for a long time. I had known the plot and had heard a couple of pieces, but then saw the "performance" of the ending in the film and thought "Was that the best they could do?" And then there was that ridiculous interpretation from Salieri to advance movie's plot. *shudder*


"Amadeus" was my first contact with opera. I watched it as a boy in school (must have been 13 or 14) as part of the music programme. I was completely blown ayaw by the music and after some effort found a copy of DG in the local library. I got hooked on the music and I will probably never stop being amazed by the beauty of Mozart opera, particularly DG.

I still love Amadeus as a film, great combinaton of storytelling, very good acting (F. Murray Abraham is sublime, and won an Oscar), intrige and of course even greater music. But I must say that the DG staging in the movie is pretty terrible  This is one of my favourite parts:


----------



## katdad (Jan 1, 2009)

Thanks gellio for the emperor correction. I was in a rush and got the names wrong.

Re "Amadeus" the movie, still terrific fun, mostly fiction, but a fine and entertaining movie. I had begun this thread mostly from smiling about the goofy movie-end to Giovanni and all the demons, stuff collapsing, and nobody applauding. And from that, wondered how pleasantly surprised anyone might be who then went to see an actual production of the opera.

Thanks everyone, some excellent comments here...


----------



## Freddie von Rost (Dec 3, 2013)

DG. Onthe whole not as satisfying as LNF.Possibly due to the recycling of Non Piu etc. IMHO, and I suspect that I will get a torch and pitchfork visitation for writing this, DG should end after he gets his comeuppance and not with the wishy washy moralisting ending. Rather spoils the Schadenfreude of the piece.


----------



## Aramis (Mar 1, 2009)

Freddie von Rost said:


> the wishy washy moralisting ending


It's not really moralistic, do you think that Leporello and others singing "and we, good people..." are to be taken seriously? We've seen how perfect they are and that's what makes it comical.

The desire for DG to end with Commendatore scene sceems to me as yearning for conventionality. "Operas generally end with dramatic chords and character dying so I should expect this". All that happens after Don Giovanni vanish is excellent musically and adds to the special flavour of the work with remarkable contrast it brings.


----------



## gellio (Nov 7, 2013)

Amadeus was flawed in terms of accuracy, but I'm fine with that because that movie certainly brought a ton of people to his music.


----------



## mountmccabe (May 1, 2013)

I really loved _Amadeus_ and definitely became interested in his operas from the excerpts in the film, especially DG. I have been wanting to re-watch for a more informed take.

_Don Giovanni_ is my favorite Mozart opera and the only one I'm totally sold on (though there are a few major ones I don't know/need more time with). I probably would have been seduced by say _Cosi_ or _Zauberflöte_ had I listened to them more before understanding what was going on.

And I am not sure how the Don works as a gentleman seducer; he's quite reprehensible using all of his privileges of rank and power and money to be horrible to everyone around him. He may see himself as a gentleman but he is awful.


----------



## Couac Addict (Oct 16, 2013)

Freddie von Rost said:


> DG should end after he gets his comeuppance and not with the wishy washy moralisting ending.


If you're after a different ending...

I once saw a production where the stage was covered in fabric and was pulled down the trapdoor with DG. The idea being that DG was trying to claw his way forward but the 'ground' sucks him down the hole.
The problem was that the fabric fouled the elevator and DG only went half way down...he rises back up to great laughter and applause, but alas there was no Divine Pardon - he went back down again. This time, for good.


----------



## Aramis (Mar 1, 2009)

Couac Addict said:


> This time, for good.


So I have that idea for opera, Don Giovanni II, and the first scene is that Commendatore and Giovanni are standing at the cementary and the latter says HMMM THE SUPPER WAS DELICIOUS SORRY FOR FREAKING OUT BUT YOUR HAND WAS REALLY FREEZY and they part like good mates, one goes back to his celestal dining room, the other heads to the convent... this is prologue, the Act I is entitled "Suor Elvira".........................


----------



## deggial (Jan 20, 2013)

mountmccabe said:


> And I am not sure how the Don works as a gentleman seducer;


in the sense that he is suave. Have you seen productions where he looks (and acts) like a Hallmark channel rapist? That's the ruffian version. Nobody's saying the character is upright but the way he comes of as will sway the entertainment value this way or that.


----------



## katdad (Jan 1, 2009)

Aramis said:


> It's not really moralistic, do you think that Leporello and others singing "and we, good people..." are to be taken seriously? We've seen how perfect they are and that's what makes it comical.
> 
> The desire for DG to end with Commendatore scene sceems to me as yearning for conventionality. "Operas generally end with dramatic chords and character dying so I should expect this". All that happens after Don Giovanni vanish is excellent musically and adds to the special flavour of the work with remarkable contrast it brings.


Very correct that most all the main characters are flawed as well, and cannot see their own failings. The "extra ending" is fine with me, not as dramatic as Giovanni being dragged to hell as a finale but okay, too. You can tell that Mozart & company had fun with this opera. As should be.


----------



## katdad (Jan 1, 2009)

Question: Was Donna Anna completely innocent at the beginning, or did she perhaps flirt too much with Giovanni until he visited her bedchambers at night, at which time she changed her mind?

It plays either way and I've seen both the "totally innocent" vs "partly guilty" interpretation. We've got to remember that this was written in an era when "upper class" women were indeed sheltered and if Donna Anna's behavior is surprise and innocence, it's part of that morality. Or she can be shown as a bit naughty.

What's your feeling?


----------



## katdad (Jan 1, 2009)

I've told this story before, but it's still fun... I sang chorus in one re-setting of Giovanni, where the director put us into early 20th century Mexico during the revolution. We in the chorus were peasants, and Giovanni was the aristocratic land owner.

At the end of the opera, we chorus men, dressed in peasant gear but wearing skull masks, didn't become demons but stayed "real", we lined Giovanni up against the wall and shot him in an execution.

Last rehearsal, all of the chorus showed up in t-shirts proclaiming "I Shot Don Giovanni". A great memento and I still wear my shirt to music parties.


----------



## deggial (Jan 20, 2013)

Donna Anna doesn't strike me as the flirty type - she's a bit of Gilda, naive, easy prey to a handsome seducer who knows how to talk to a woman.


----------



## Dongiovanni (Jul 30, 2012)

deggial said:


> Donna Anna doesn't strike me as the flirty type - she's a bit of Gilda, naive, easy prey to a handsome seducer who knows how to talk to a woman.


Yes, this is most probably the Anna da Ponte and Mozart had in mind. In modern poductions Anna is often not so innocent, quite the opposite. This works better for me.


----------



## Aramis (Mar 1, 2009)

Dongiovanni said:


> Yes, this is most probably the Anna da Ponte and Mozart had in mind. In modern poductions Anna is often not so innocent, quite the opposite. This works better for me.


Not for me though, it seems like major intention when presenting Anna this way is to make as much pawingfest out of Don Giovanni as possible.


----------



## Couac Addict (Oct 16, 2013)

deggial said:


> in the sense that he is suave. Have you seen productions where he looks (and acts) like a Hallmark channel rapist? That's the ruffian version. Nobody's saying the character is upright but the way he comes of as will sway the entertainment value this way or that.


I've seen him as Zorro. If you find a 'Z' sliced into your corset, it's too late to use that rape horn.
Ah...so _that's_ why it's called a rapier.


----------



## deggial (Jan 20, 2013)

Dongiovanni said:


> Yes, this is most probably the Anna da Ponte and Mozart had in mind. In modern poductions Anna is often not so innocent, quite the opposite. This works better for me.


but that undermines the reasoning for Zerlina, who's the major flirt in the opera. The ladies are each a different type: the innocent, the jilted I-will-marry-and-worship-him-or-I-will-hunt-him-down-and-marry-him and the flirt.

speaking of the jilted, I can so see Donna Elvira with a giant rape horn for her entrance aria :lol:


----------



## katdad (Jan 1, 2009)

Ah, Zerlina! Poor Maesetto doesn't know what he's got coming to him. haha

I actually believe I've dated women like Donna Elvira. Donna Anna not so likely.


----------

