# SS 19.10.13 - Mahler #5



## realdealblues

Bix asked me if I would continue posting these so here's this weeks Symphony. 

A continuation of the Saturday Symphonies Tradition:

*Gustav Mahler (1860 - 1911)*

Symphony # 5

1. Trauermarsch
2. Stürmisch bewegt, mit größter Vehemenz
3. Scherzo
4. Adagietto
5. Rondo-Finale: Allegro

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Post what recording you are going to listen to giving details of Orchestra / Conductor / Chorus / Soloists etc - Enjoy!


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## Mahlerian

Solti/Chicago Symphony. The live recording, not the studio one. I'm not a huge Solti fan, but I've always thought that this is one of the best renditions of the work that I know.


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## DaDirkNL

Bernstein/New York Philharmonic.


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## realdealblues

I've been looking through my recordings of this Symphony and instead of going with a favorite (Generally either Barshai or Bernstein)...I think I'm going to try something I haven't listened too yet...

Manfred Honeck & The Pittsburgh Symphony Orchestra


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## maestro267

Berlin Philharmonic Orchestra/Karajan. Really looking forward to giving this a spin. It's a real favourite of mine.


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## AClockworkOrange

Well, I have cheated and started a day early :lol:

Claudio Abbado and the Berlin Philharmoniker
View attachment 26802


In the spirit of the thread though, tomorrow I will be listening to Klaus Tennstedt and the London Philharmonic Orchestra


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## Chi_townPhilly

I'll (probably) never tire of saying it: "my favorite Symphony not written by someone named 'Beethoven.'"

So many versions- so little time! Let me go with a couple that might not be readily available to others- Scherchen and the Philadelphia Orchestra (abridged, but not criminally so- except in the Central Scherzo), and Tennstedt and the New York Philharmonic. {Both of these performances are taken from radio broadcasts.} For the second pass-through, I hope to do the "study-score" thing while listening. [A work reaches pretty rareified status in my assessment when I get to the point that I'm motivated to get a study-score of the piece.]


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## Mahlerian

AClockworkOrange said:


> Well, I have cheated and started a day early :lol:
> 
> Claudio Abbado and the Berlin Philharmoniker
> View attachment 26802
> 
> 
> In the spirit of the thread though, tomorrow I will be listening to Klaus Tennstedt and the London Philharmonic Orchestra


I would give this post two likes if I could. Once for listening to Mahler's 5th twice in two days, and another for Klaus Tennstedt!


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## AClockworkOrange

Mahlerian said:


> I would give this post two likes if I could. Once for listening to Mahler's 5th twice in two days, and another for Klaus Tennstedt!


Thanks 

I am not as familiar with Mahler's 5th as I really should be, it seems I have inadvertently developed a blind spot.

Listening to the symphony now I cannot explain it, but it is an ideal time to address it.

I have never heard a Tennstedt recording that I have not loved and that is doubly true of his Mahler.

I will be listening to the piece twice tomorrow - both his studio and live recording. I forgot that both were included in the box set. It will be interesting to compare the two recordings. Tennstedt is great in the studio but really comes into his own in live performance. 
View attachment 26803


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## Vaneyes

maestro267 said:


> Berlin Philharmonic Orchestra/Karajan. Really looking forward to giving this a spin. It's a real favourite of mine.


For you, maestro267...


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## Vaneyes

RPO/Shipway (rec.1996) and VPO/LB (rec.1987) for me. :tiphat:


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## Vaneyes

Mahlerian said:


> Solti/Chicago Symphony. The live recording, not the studio one. I'm not a huge Solti fan, but I've always thought that this is one of the best renditions of the work that I know.


It is, and hats off also to Sir Georg & Chicago's '71 M7, and '83 M1. :tiphat:


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## EricABQ

Joining in with the Utah Symphony from The Big Mahler Box.


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## techniquest

This is my absolute least-liked Mahler symphony - I simply don't get it, apart from the 1st and 4th movements. I remember watching it on the TV from this years Proms in a bid to really try to find something that hooks me in, but it did nothing for me at all (I tried the same with Vaughan-William's Sea Symphony and was left similarly unaffected).
Nonetheless, in the spirit of Saturday Symphony, I am opting for the Symphonica of London under Wyn Morris on IMP Classics 
Incidently, isn't it interesting (or just coincidence) that this 5th, like Beethoven's, also starts da-da-da-dum.


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## Mahlerian

techniquest said:


> This is my absolute least-liked Mahler symphony - I simply don't get it, apart from the 1st and 4th movements. I remember watching it on the TV from this years Proms in a bid to really try to find something that hooks me in, but it did nothing for me at all (I tried the same with Vaughan-William's Sea Symphony and was left similarly unaffected).
> Nonetheless, in the spirit of Saturday Symphony, I am opting for the Symphonica of London under Wyn Morris on IMP Classics


I don't know if it'll help, but if you're interested, I've gone through the whole thing on my blog, which might at least help you to understand how it fits together.


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## maestro267

Mahlerian said:


> I don't know if it'll help, but if you're interested, I've gone through the whole thing on my blog, which might at least help you to understand how it fits together.


Thanks for alerting me to this. I love this sort of detailed analysis of the music. Will follow along during my listening session this evening. 

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UPDATE

Just finished listening to this absolutely stunning symphony! Still completely blown away by that thrilling ending! Some of my personal observations during this symphonic journey. I'm using a few time codes based on the Berlin PO/Karajan recording. Obviously they'll be different on other recordings, but hopefully you'll get which passage I'm talking about by the rest of the sentence.

_2nd mvt._ - First time I've ever noticed the return of the A-flat woodwind theme from I at around 7:22. And that the wide-leaping idea at 12:02 that leads eventually to the D major chorale is the same as that which led to the first movement's climax.

_Third mvt._, passage at 14:59. Rushing orchestra (A minor), stopped by horn solo. Then the orchestra rudely interrupts, and is once again stopped by the solo horn. This reminds me of a parent (horn) trying to stop children (orchestra) arguing. Or perhaps someone calming a rowdy boisterous crowd down.

The suspended fourth at the end of the Adagietto seems to just hang on for an eternity before finally going down to A to complete the F major.

Horn solo at the beginning of fifth movement. As the horn had last word in the third movt., this makes the Adagietto seem like a dream sequence, or an interruption (albeit a very beautiful one). Then the horn resumes, as if to softly get us back on track.

When you hear the chorale in the 2nd mvt., it doesn't seem significant (like it's not really used any other times in the work), so it's a bit of a surprise when it comes to crown the symphony's awesome conclusion.

This is only my 2nd week doing this Saturday Symphonies thing, and I'm really enjoying it. I hope it continues, and doesn't just gradually drift off after 30 weeks or so. I'd be happy to start new SS threads if ever no one else is available to do so.


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde

I tried listen ending to this symphony yesterday (Tennstedt) but again I found it disinteresting. It didn't draw me in to a huge Mahlerian world like the 7th does....but nevertheless I will not give up! I'm going to listen to it again today! With Mahler I find that repeated listens with the score help a lot, and I learn a lot from it too.


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## techniquest

> I don't know if it'll help, but if you're interested, I've gone through the whole thing on my blog, which might at least help you to understand how it fits together.


This is a fascinating break-down of the symphony movement by movement and I thank you for the link. I think it'll take me a long time to really appreciate the 5th, but your blog makes for interesting reading.
Even though I don't get along with it, I can tell a good recording when I hear it, and the Wyn Morris / Symphonica of London recording I listened to today is superb with a depth of clarity that really absorbs you.


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## Machiavel

At the moment it would be :


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## Chi_townPhilly

In accordance with my stated intention, I *did* listen to the Schechen Philly recording, AND the Tennstedt New York Philharmonic rendition. However, owing to the fact that I was away-from-home at the time, I didn't achieve my ambition of having study-score-in-hand while doing so.

I wouldn't do justice to the full extent of my thoughts unless I took a page from "Mahlerian" and blogged on this. To pick just one thing on which I contemplated, I noted that both performances were greeted with wild applause. Yet nowadays, doubtless the Scherchen version (which lops off roughly ⅔ of the Scherzo, and puffs the Adagietto out to over 15 minutes) would be viewed as a bizarre mutilation. Yet, it was greeted with great enthusiasm. I put this down to the fact that this was a premiere performance of the piece in Philadelphia. [1964- over 50 years after Mahler died- and nearly 50 years ago.] In other words, like neophytes applauding Helfgott's Rachmaninoff 3, we shouldn't confuse appreciation of the artist with appreciation for the first time someone is exposed to a great art-work.


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## senza sordino

I have a Karajan version of Mahler's fifth. I love it, the cd is practically worn out. Is it just me, or does anyone else think that the open few notes of the fifth sound like the opening notes of the theme music to Red Dwarf? I don't mean literally, or any plagiarism, hearing the opening of one reminds me of the other.


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## Mika

This time my Saturday Symphony was Sunday Symphony, but SS anyway . I have Mahler 150 Anniversary box, which contains Tennstedt & London Philharmonic Orchestra version of the work. For some reason I like Bernstein conducting, so I check Bernstein NY Phil. first from Google Music.Tomorrow Tennstedt time.


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## Avey

Man, this work is just _so_ extraordinary. One of those things that you can't really grasp the full scope and significance of -- I can't appropriately put my sentiments into words. It's hard to explain, but I see the work as a bell curve, rising from sorrow and anguish, leveling with rehabilitation, and roaring back down with elation, and fanfare, if you will. Great storytelling.

Regarding versions, I've always leaned toward more recent interpretations from the London Symphony & Berliner, under Rattle. Per the suggestion earlier, however, I listened to Tennstedt's (LSO) 1988 live version, from 150th Ann. Collection. Interesting, I'm partial to a slower interpretation of the final movement than Klaus, and most others, exhibit, but otherwise, with the former movements, I noticed some points of dissonance and resolution not readily apparent in other recent versions. This is likely just sound-shock to a different tempo, dynamics, recording -- but nonetheless, always nice to get something new.

Any other versions you came to appreciate?


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## mstar

senza sordino said:


> I have a Karajan version of Mahler's fifth. I love it, the cd is practically worn out. Is it just me, or does anyone else think that the open few notes of the fifth sound like the opening notes of the theme music to Red Dwarf? I don't mean literally, or any plagiarism, hearing the opening of one reminds me of the other.


I've been looking for Karajan's Mahler symphonies, though they're apparently evasive of me.... 
As for the musical similarities, listen to Brahms Symphony No. 2, if you haven't - you'll recognize the first movement for sure. I think we had a thread for such things once.... Start one in the general Classical Music forum, on musical similarities, if you want. I have no hope on finding the old thread.


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## Itullian

senza sordino said:


> I have a Karajan version of Mahler's fifth. I love it, the cd is practically worn out. Is it just me, or does anyone else think that the open few notes of the fifth sound like the opening notes of the theme music to Red Dwarf? I don't mean literally, or any plagiarism, hearing the opening of one reminds me of the other.


I love Karajan's Mahler.
And his 5th is awesome.


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## Itullian

mstar said:


> I've been looking for Karajan's Mahler symphonies, though they're apparently evasive of me....
> As for the musical similarities, listen to Brahms Symphony No. 2, if you haven't - you'll recognize the first movement for sure. I think we had a thread for such things once.... Start one in the general Classical Music forum, on musical similarities, if you want. I have no hope on finding the old thread.


Hi m,
HvK did 4, 5, 6 and 9 twice. All on DGG. Available on Amazon.
I love them.


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## realdealblues

Well I listened to Manfred Honeck & The Pittsburgh Symphony Orchestra this Saturday.

To start off, I love this Symphony. The Adagietto was the first piece of Mahler's music I heard and from that first hearing I was hooked. I love the 1st movement with all the horn work and the funeral march. I love the 2nd movement and how it starts off so terribly exciting and almost frantic before calming into a wonderful melody. The wonderfully playful 3rd movement Scherzo is brilliant. The 4th movement Adagietto is of course one of the most gorgeous melodies ever written in my book and of course is followed by the wonderous Mahler finale.

I decided to listen to a version I'd never heard before. Honeck and the Pittsburgh Symphony play very well. My understanding is this is a live recording and I didn't hear much in the way of crowd noise though I was not wearing headphones as I normally do. The sound quality was good. The phrasing in spots was different than I am used to which made this an interesting listen. I'd like to listen to it again with headphones. It doesn't overtake my favorite recordings of this particular work, but I think it's worth at least a 2nd listen.


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## nightscape




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## chalkpie

Bernstein/Vienna (DG).

This is the recording that started it all for me, and has drained many coins from my wallet as a result. Long live GM!


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## starthrower

How about Chailly? My library has this one, so I'm gonna give it a listen. I'm also a Simon Rattle fan, and would like to hear his recording.


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## FLighT

Mahlerian said:


> Solti/Chicago Symphony. The live recording, not the studio one. I'm not a huge Solti fan, but I've always thought that this is one of the best renditions of the work that I know.


Is this available? The only live 5th I'm aware of is with the Zurich Tonhalle Orchestra on Decca and I think it was one of his last concerts.


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## Xaltotun

Mahler 5th is one of those pieces where it's taken long for me to find a recording that I can wholeheartedly enjoy. I'm not sure if my quest has yet ended, but at this point I like Shipway and Karajan.


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## clara s

I read somewhere in the internet some months ago, about Mahler's 5th

"All of these Mahler loved and celebrates, Zander tells us"

When i listened to this recording, I could not do anything else but agree

Benjamin Zander and Philarmonia Orchestra for me tonight


Has anyone heard Rudolf Barshai conducting this symphony?


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## Mahlerian

FLighT said:


> Is this available? The only live 5th I'm aware of is with the Zurich Tonhalle Orchestra on Decca and I think it was one of his last concerts.


It's the one with this cover:









Rather than his studio one, which is this cover:


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## FLighT

Mahlerian said:


> It's the one with this cover:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Rather than his studio one, which is this cover:


Thanks, going to order it now.


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## hpowders

clara s said:


> I read somewhere in the internet some months ago, about Mahler's 5th
> 
> "All of these Mahler loved and celebrates, Zander tells us"
> 
> When i listened to this recording, I could not do anything else but agree
> 
> Benjamin Zander and Philarmonia Orchestra for me tonight
> 
> Has anyone heard Rudolf Barshai conducting this symphony?


No. But I do have the Zander performance. It's a fine performance. Best I've heard is Klaus Tennstedt in a live performance with the NY Philharmonic, but it's located in a huge boxed set of all the Mahler Symphonies with live performances by the NY Philharmonc.


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## FLighT

clara s said:


> I read somewhere in the internet some months ago, about Mahler's 5th
> 
> "All of these Mahler loved and celebrates, Zander tells us"
> 
> When i listened to this recording, I could not do anything else but agree
> 
> Benjamin Zander and Philarmonia Orchestra for me tonight
> 
> Has anyone heard Rudolf Barshai conducting this symphony?


Yes, I have Barshai with the Junge Deutsche Philharmonie on Brilliant Classics. It's coupled with a Barshai'd 10th.

I like both and the 5th is very good. But then, I'm a certified Mahlerhaulic and investigate just about everything by Gus that comes down the pike. Any given recording of any of his symphonies has to be really misjudged for me to not find something to take away from the listening experience.

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/4150T18BXJL._AA160_.jpg

As soon as I get the Solti / Chicago live I'll sit down and do a comparison with the Solti studio and the Solti live with the Tonhalle-Orchester Zürich.

For me the toughest movement to get right in the 5th is the second, Barbirolli gets it, I would just ask for a little more intensity when the horn chorale makes its first appearance before the close of the movement.


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## hpowders

clara s said:


> I read somewhere in the internet some months ago, about Mahler's 5th
> 
> "All of these Mahler loved and celebrates, Zander tells us"
> 
> When i listened to this recording, I could not do anything else but agree
> 
> Benjamin Zander and Philarmonia Orchestra for me tonight
> 
> Has anyone heard Rudolf Barshai conducting this symphony?


I've just researched the Barshai. The reviews are consistently ecstatic, so I just ordered it. This with a youth orchestra, no less.
It will have to be really superlative to displace my number one performance of Mahler 5, the incredible live performance by Klaus Tennstedt with the New York Philharmonic in the enormous "Mahler Broadcasts" set.


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## FLighT

Tennstedt has a way with Mahler that always works for me even if I can't say why, other than he seems to carefully control dynamics so that subtle details that tend to get buried with many other conductors are brought out. The only live concert of his I was at was a Bruckner 8 in Philly, brought the house down.


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## Mahlerian

FLighT said:


> Tennstedt has a way with Mahler that always works for me even if I can't say why, other than he seems to carefully control dynamics so that subtle details that tend to get buried with many other conductors are brought out. The only live concert of his I was at was a Bruckner 8 in Philly, brought the house down.


Tennstedt lets phrases breathe and seems to understand exactly how the music should go; most other conductors seem to want to restrain Mahler in some way, while Tennstedt always lets Mahler be Mahler.


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## Guest

Karajan's is one of my favorites, too. I recently bought the remastered version on Blu-ray--really opens up the sound. I also like Sinoploli's.


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## Markbridge

Mahlerian said:


> It's the one with this cover:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Rather than his studio one, which is this cover:


Well, color me embarrassed. All of these years I just assumed that the first one was nothing more than a repackaging of the original '70 recording. It wasn't until now that I noticed the "Digital" label at the top right. Also checked the timings against his first recording and see he did indeed slow down the movements (except for the 4th). I have the Honeck on order, but I may have to download this one only because I do like Solti's way with the 5th. I still think his '70s recording still sounds superb even after 43 years!


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## hpowders

I've listened to the Boulez/ Vienna Philharmonic performance four times and it is very fine.
The playing is the best I've ever heard. The conception is terrific.

If this performance had the name "Bernstein" on it instead of "Boulez", the critics would all be swooning over this performance.


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## nightscape

clara s said:


> Has anyone heard Rudolf Barshai conducting this symphony?


This was a nice surprise for me. Very good version.


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## Badinerie

Ok so Its Saturday and I fancy a Mahler 5th. I picked this one.
My first and probably favourite. Normally its the Barbirolli cd as the LP's getting on a bit.
I tried a few different versions of the 5th. but none of them 'made sense' so to speak untill I heard the Kubelik.


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## Dave Whitmore

My first SS night. I decided to go with this one.

Mahler Symphony No 5 in C sharp minor Barenboim, Chicago Symphony Orchestra .


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## hpowders

Enjoy it! I have several Mahler 5's. Tennstedt/ NY Philharmonic and Boulez/Vienna Philharmonic are my faves.


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## Zarathustra

Dave Whitmore said:


> My first SS night. I decided to go with this one.
> 
> Mahler Symphony No 5 in C sharp minor Barenboim, Chicago Symphony Orchestra .


I love this recording. I went through a phase when I just had to listen to the last minute or so of the Rondo Finale again and again.


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## ToneDeaf&Senile

I recommend for consideration for any future Saturday (or any other day) hearings of Mahler's fifth a live concert captured on video, by the Barcelona Symphony Orchestra under Eiji Oue. I chanced upon it some time ago and find myself listening to it more often than any of my numerous disk-based renditions. I don't know what tier orchestra is considered, but they do themselves and the work justice. Yes, there are a few minor flubs, but hey, it's live. The sound suffers from dynamic compression but is otherwise fine. In any case I think it worth a hearing, even should you enjoy less than I do.


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## chalkpie

Dave Whitmore said:


> My first SS night. I decided to go with this one.
> 
> Mahler Symphony No 5 in C sharp minor Barenboim, Chicago Symphony Orchestra .


Great recording! The gong (tam-tam?) in the beginning is awesome.


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## chalkpie

starthrower said:


> How about Chailly? My library has this one, so I'm gonna give it a listen. I'm also a Simon Rattle fan, and would like to hear his recording.


I think its excellent. Splendid sonics and great playing. Here is Dave Hurwitz on this recording:

T_he Royal Concertgebouw has recorded this symphony only once before, with Bernard Haitink--a performance of no special involvement or excitement. Given that they are one of the world's three great Gustav Mahler orchestras (with the New York Philharmonic and the Czech Philharmonic), it was high time that they had another crack at it under a more interpretively proactive conductor. While Riccardo Chailly's performance isn't exactly the last word in orchestral imagination, so magnificent is the playing and sound of this disc that no one is likely to care. This is, then, principally a showcase for a great orchestra with a great Mahler tradition, and that's good enough for most of us. --David Hurwitz_


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