# Blind comparison : Debussy, La Mer



## Discobole

I am pleased to present you with my new project, a blind comparison on an exceptional piece with an exceptional discography, and very appropriate for a this special year, that is Debussy's _La Mer_.

I took weeks to prepare it. I listened (frequently several times) to no less than 97 versions in order to decide which deserved to be selected in such a comparison. I already announced it on the forum Classik (in French) where 16 participants already registered and I hope many of you will accept to join 

*Method*

We'll start with 8 groups of 4 versions each, in an excerpt of the first movement (_De l'aube à midi sur la mer_. Each group will be judged by at least 4 voters who will individually rank them, and in that way decide which versions will progress to the second round.
There will remain 15 versions for second round, on the first movement and the second movement (_Jeux de vagues_), one of the most modernist pages by Debussy. They will distributed among 5 groups of 3 versions each, and one version per group will qualify for the finals.
Then the finals will allow every participant to hear excerpts from movements I, II and III (_Dialogue du vent et de la mer_), and decide which is the absolute best interpretation of _La Mer_.

*Versions*

Selected versions are sometimes very well known, sometimes mysterious, sometimes historical, sometimes recent, in short I tried to put all versions that I felt could be missed if they weren't present. I also reserved at least one third of all versions for French orchestras (or from French tradition, as you can find in Switzerland, Belgium, Luxembourg...), and one third for French conductors (or from French tradition, even if from foreign descent). This doesn't mean there is only one third for others, as a French conductor can very well conduct a French orchestra. I found necessary to ensure that the French musical tradition was well represented in the listening, as it frequently implies a different sound, and also a different way to play this music, a kind of intimate relation to Debussy that even the greatest orchestras can rarely achieve.

The listening will start within a week, I shall send groups for the first round no later than May 8th. If you participate, you can very well choose to stop the comparison if you prefer or need to, so there is no obligation of any sort. And, of course, anyone can join at any moment during the "game".


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## mitchflorida

Okay, but I think the winner will be Dutoit.


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## Discobole

Statistically, the odds arer 1/97 

So, you're in ?


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## PetrB

Dutoit / Schmutwah!!!!!

Count me IN, Please?!

Do we have to watch for it, or will you 'notify' us via message?


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## Discobole

Great, so, 2 voters, who's next ?
I'll notify by private message, and you'll post your vote and (hopefully) discuss what you hear on this thread


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## emiellucifuge

You'll provide the audio?

If so, ill do it


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## Discobole

Yes, of course, I provide the excerpts. (Or else, how could it be a blind comparison?)


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## chalkpie

Boulez/Cleveland


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## Discobole

This is not a poll oon everyone's favourite version 
Chalkpie, are you in ?


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## chalkpie

yes!.....................


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## Discobole

For the moment :
- 4 voters here : mitchflorida ; PetrB ; emiellucifuge ; chalkpie
- 16 on classik ; 3 on GMG
-> total participants = 23

The more participants there is, the more interesting the comparison and the debate


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## Discobole

I finally listened to 99 versions exactly to prepare this listening 

Everything is ready so, you should receive the excerpts shortly.

I'll wait for your votes until Sunday May 20th, in the evening (midnight UTC +2 : Paris, Berlin, Rome, etc.). Do not forget to tell me if you're gonna be late.

Please keep posting your votes and comments with different font size or color, in order to hide informations as a spoiler alert.

Here are the groups you'll listen to (I tried to put you together in groups, not always possible but this will help to discuss what you hear, even more if you listen to other groups after the first one) :

Group A : (+ 4 on other forums)
Group B : (+ 3)
Group C : chalkpie ; mitchflorida (+ 2)
Group D : PetrB (+ 2)
Group E : (+ 4)
Group F : (+ 4)
Group G : (+ 4)
Group H : emiellucifuge (+ 2)


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## Discobole

Nearly everyone has voted already. If you wish, I can start announcing results with group D.

I'm still waiting for your votes though :
- group C : chalkpie ; mitchflorida
- group H : emiellucifuge 

PetrB didn't manage to read the mp3 excerpts (!) and decided not to participate finally.


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## emiellucifuge

I havent forgotten!


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## Discobole

Still waiting for chalkpie and mitchflorida ??


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## emiellucifuge

Looking forward to finding out who I was hearing


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## Discobole

*Results*

I'm going to reveal all groups now, but if you want more details (on the method in particular) you'll have to read it in French (but tables are quite easy to read in every language I think...)

*Group A*

Qualified :
Things were difficult at first for *A4*, but it finally ranks 1st. *A2 *was virtually qualified through the whole vote, but it finishes 2nd and could have been endangered with a couple different votes...
Eliminated :
- 3rd : *A1 *- Michel Plasson, Orchestre du Capitole de Toulouse (EMI, 1987-1988). The orchestra from Toulouse sounds surprizingly full and with beautiful winds, but this interpretation lacks a little life, a little wind on the sea...
- 4th : *A3 *- Serge Koussevitzky, Boston Symphony Orchestra (RCA Victor, 1938-1939). One of my favourite interpretations since I've known it. I just couldn't leave it out of the selection, even if I knew it would not go very far because of its sound quality. The orchestra is really incredible for these times, beautiful and precise.

















*Group B *

Qualified :
*B4* (1st) and *B3* (2nd) are clear winners and were never in any danger of being eliminated. But nothing is sure for the rest of the game, as most voters found this group weak...

Eliminated :
- 3rd : *B1* - Désiré-Émile Inghelbrecht, Orchestre national de la RTF (Montaigne, live 1962). This recording is a legend among lovers of french music. A most lively and virtuoso live performance, Inghelbrecht leaves the orchestra free of doing what it wants in this music they know by heart.
- 4th : *B2* - Alain Lombard, Orchestre philharmonique de Strasbourg (Erato, 10/1975). One of the last versions I selected. It has a lot of charm and the conductor understands this music naturally, the result is very pleasant. And the CD is cheap too...

















*Group C*

Qualified :
*C3* (1st) is a clear winner, everyone loved it, on 8 voters, 6 ranked it 1st and 2 ranked it 2nd ! Behind, *C2* is qualified as a default choice, as it seems.

Eliminated :
- 3rd : *C4 *- Charles Munch, Orchestre national de la RTF (Montaigne, live 1962). Some critics consider it as the best recording Munch left of _La Mer_. I understand one can think that, this performance is incredible (and not that different from Inghelbrecht from the same year with the same orchestra). But the first movement is maybe the weaker of the 3...
- 4th : *C1 *- Arturo Toscanini, BBC Symphony Orchestra (HMV, live 12/6/1935). This is what I think is the absolute best version by Toscanini, who has played and recorded this piece very frequently. The orchestra flows naturally, and this reading is really passionate. The sound is quite good for its age too ! Anyway, you didn't really like it...


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## Discobole

*Group D*

Qualified :
*D2* is a clear winner in this group too, on 9 voters it was ranked first 6 times. *D1* ranks 2nd with a strong support too,n even if D4 was not far behind.

Eliminated :
- 3rd : *D4 *- Orchestre de la Suisse romande, Ernest Ansermet (Decca/London, 1964). Ansermet is one of the most renowned conductors in this repertoire. But, even with a splendid sound from the sixties, and even in his last recording (among 4), Ansermet does not have the best orchestra in the world, and the comparison is quite cruel.
- 4th : *D3 *- Orchestre de Paris, John Barbirolli (EMI, 12/1968). This could have been a recording gathering a few lovers. I selected it in case it would provoke this kind of mania. It has not. It is actually a little strange, but better than the other take by Barbirolli, with Hallé. And the Orchestre de Paris was really something in these years.















[/quote]

*Group E*

Qualified :
*E1 *is one of the most unanimous choices in this round, 6 times first and 2 times 3rd on 9 votes. But all versions had their supporters. *E4 *is qualified despite a not-so-high average ranking .

Eliminated :
- 3rd : *E3 *- Charles Munch, Boston Symphony Orchestra (RCA, 1956). Results in this group are certainly the most surprising of the whole first round, at least by the names of the eliminated. This version, generally considered as the main reference in this score, is eliminated, and frankly nobody seemed very impressed.
- 4th : *E2 *- Roger Désormière, Česká filharmonie (Supraphon/Ultraphone, 10/1950). Another big name, this version which was considered as the best recording on earth ever, period, by Sviatoslav Richter (who played it for his old master Heinrich Neuhaus). A myth, which will remain so, but does not survive this comparison.


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## Discobole

*Group F*

Qualified :
This group was very frequently described as not impressive. *F1* ranks first, by default. Behind, F2 and F3 are perfect equals, they rank 2nd but as their average ranking is the lowest among the 2nds of all groups, they are eliminated. This was planned, as I needed to eliminate 17 versions from this first round to keep only 15 (3 groups of 5).

Eliminated :
- 2nd ex aequo : *F2 *- Eduard van Beinum, Concertgebouworkest Amsterdam (London, 5/1957). The sound is not that great, the orchestra beautiful but flawed, and the conductor gives a very polished Debussy, lacking a little color and violence.
- 2nd ex aequo : *F3 *- Sergiu Celibidache, Münchner Philharmoniker (EMI, live 1992). This version has certain qualities : the orchestra and the conductor are obviously in osmosis, there is tension and life despite the slow tempo. But there it is : so slow, sooo sloooow. At least you couldn't stand it any longer.
- 4th : *F4 *- Piero Coppola, Orchestre de la société des concerts du Conservatoire (HMV, 1932). One of the greatest versions, and one of the first. Coppola was the first to record it in 1928, and this second take is from 1932. I love this Debussy, so lively, full of brilliance, movement, lyricism. This pioneer version is at the root of the whole french school of interpretation in this score (a tradition which has kind of disappeared now).
























*Group G*

Qualified :
*G4 *has had an overwhelming support, and is clearly ahead. Things have been less easy for *G2*, but this version is qualified along G4.

Eliminated :
- 3rd : *G1*- Igor Markevitch, Orchestre des Concerts Lamoureux (DG, 5/1959). A rare version, until DG released it again in a low cost french collection. Not among the best, but still charming, and I had to select it as the orchestra (which is now surviving at a quasi-amateur status in Paris) is the creator of _La Mer_.
- 4th : *G3 *- Arturo Toscanini, NBC Symphony Orchestra (RCA, 1/6/1950). Toscanini is eliminated here too. This later studio version is more oriented towards brilliance, like most of Toscanini's recordings at this same period (in Richard Strauss or Respighi for instance). Most voters found the orchestra really below par.


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## Discobole

*Group H*

Qualified :
*H1 *is one of these versions which were really ahead at first, and then votes became a little less easy. It keeps its 1st rank, but not so far from *H4 *which had a lot of support in among the last voters.

Eliminated :
- 3rd : *H2 *- Jean-Claude Casadesus, Orchestre national de Lille (Harmonia Mundi, 1993-1994). A real disappointment, I thought this version would go a little further in the competition. Casadesus reminds me of Munch or even Coppola, his _Mer_ is really full of live and passion, and the orchestra is not bad at all. Well, you prefered H1 and H4...
- 4th : *H3 *- George Szell, Cleveland Orchestra (Columbia, 11-12/1/1963). I didn't know this version existed before someone recently pointed it out as I was preparing this listening. A nice version, but that's all, really. Like always, Szell does a nice job, his orchestra sounds very cosy, but it lacks a little something. One more time Szell disappoints me.


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## Discobole

I've done the draw for the second round. 5 best versions of the 1st round 1st, then the 2 remaining 1st and the 3 best 2nds, then the remaining 2nds.
There are the groups for this second round. The names are the places where Debussy worked on the score.

Groupe de Bichain
- G4
- A4
- D1

Groupe d'Eastbourne
- C3
- B4
- G2

Groupe de Dieppe
- F1
- H4
- E4

Groupe de Jersey
- E1
- H1
- A2

Groupe de Paris
- D2
- B3
- C2

I'll send each participant his group very soon. You'll have an excerpt of the 2 first movements to listen. We'll keep one version per group for the finals.


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## Discobole

emiellucifuge is the only voter left on talkclassical after the 3 others abandoned. There are 17 on Classik and 8 on Good music guide. Come on, I'm sure many people here would like to give their opinion on the interpretation of this masterpiece  !


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## kv466

I like your style, Discobole...anyone who'll listen to a work repeatedly and from over 97 performances is cool in my book. I wish I had found this earlier but do let me know when you do a blind comparison on a piano concerto of your choice. I've been revisiting some versions I never compared of the Grieg piano concerto and it has been fun. There were a couple of versions out there that I'd not heard and are wonderful,...although my favorite remains the very one that has been since the first time I heard multiple versions of it.

Anyway,...I like what you're doing...oh, wow...just reading your above post...looks like I still can participate afterall...I've heard many beautiful versions of this masterpiece but as it's not something I crave to compare, I've never really had a 'favorite'. The last time I heard this was actually by the Ulster Orchestra under Yan Pascal Tortelier and probably the last before that was either Horenstein or Ricardo Muti.


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## Discobole

Thanks ! 
So I count you in, then. I've just sent you one of the 5 groups of this second round : the Bichain group (with G4, A4 and D1 from first round), which is the same I've sent to emiellucifuge, so you can discuss what you hear together.

In order to vote, you just have to rank the 3 versions (by listening to the excerpts of both the 1st and 2nd movements I've sent) by order of preference.

Please put your vote in a different color like that : in order not to influence other vote(s) 

The end of voting for the second round will be on Sunday June 3, in the evening (midnight in Paris = CEST/UTC+2).


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## Discobole

I'll post the results tomorrow (despite the fact that it seems just emielluciefuge is interested...)


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## emiellucifuge

Such a shame, as this is such a cool idea!


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## Discobole

Here I am, sorry for the delay, I had an Abbado concert tonight 

So, as planned, 1 version is qualified in each group. Some of the group rankings were very tight right until the end. Here are a few details and the eliminated versions :

*Jersey group*

Tables : http://img15.hostingpics.net/pics/8087512Jersey.jpg

*1. E1* ---> _qualified_
*2. H1* ---> _éliminated_
*3. A2* ---> _éliminated_

*3rd : A2 - Leonard Bernstein, New York Philharmonic (Columbia/Sony, 16/10/1961)*









*2nd : H1 - Bernard Haitink, Concertgebouworkest Amsterdam (Philips, 12/1976)*









*Eastbourne group*

Tables : http://img15.hostingpics.net/pics/4014012East.jpg

*1. C3* ---> _qualified_
*2. B4* ---> _eliminated_
*3. G2* ---> _eliminated_

*3rd : G2 - Serge Baudo, London Philharmonic Orchestra (EMI, 1/1986)*
















*2nd : B4 - Herbert von Karajan, Berliner Philharmoniker (DG, 9-10/3/1964)*


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## Discobole

*Dieppe group*

Tables : http://img15.hostingpics.net/pics/7764612Dieppe.jpg

*1. H4* ---> _qualified_
*2. E4* ---> _eliminated_
*3. F1* ---> _eliminated_

*3rd : F1 - Jean Martinon, Orchestre national de l'ORTF (EMI, 1973)*























*2nd : E4 - Michael Tilson Thomas, Philharmonia Orchestra (CBS, 1982)*


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## Discobole

*Bichain group*

Tables : http://img15.hostingpics.net/pics/6020832Bichain.jpg (there is a little mistake on the count of Anaxagore, actually A4 is behind D1, therefore third in the global ranking)

*1. G4* ---> _qualified_
*2. D1* ---> _eliminated_
*3. A4* ---> _eliminated_

*3rd : A4 - Evgueni Svetlanov, Orchestre national de France (Naïve, 25/1/2001)*









*2nd : D1 - Pierre Monteux, Boston Symphony Orchestra (RCA, 19/7/1954)*









*Paris group*

Tables : http://img15.hostingpics.net/pics/7627972PAris.jpg

*1. D2* ---> _qualified_
*2. C2* ---> _eliminated_
*3. B3* ---> _eliminated_

*3rd : B3 - Jean Fournet, Česká filharmonie (Supraphon, 27/10/1963)*









*2nd : C2 - Charles Dutoit, Orchestre symphonique de Montréal (Decca, 1989)*









*FINALISTS*

*C3
D2
E1
G4
H4*

I'll send you the links during the day, for sure


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## Discobole

Of course do not hesitate to join the listening for this big final round between five great, mysterious versions !


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## PeterPowerPop

Hey, Discobole: It's been a few years, but do you have the final results?


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