# Meter Question



## OboeKnight (Jan 25, 2013)

Not exactly sure where to post this, so I thought I'd try here lol. I know its probably a silly question, but I'm not sure how to count a 15/8 measure -.- we sight read Fetes by Debussy in orchestra and it totally stumped me. Piece jumps between 6/8, 9/8, and 15/8. How many beats are in a 15/8 measure?

Thanks!


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## Trout (Apr 11, 2011)

I would think there would normally be 5 beats, each beat divided into 3 parts. It appears that this is not always the case and the measure can be split into 3 beats with each beat subdivided into 5 parts. For more information see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quintuple_meter


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## OboeKnight (Jan 25, 2013)

Trout said:


> I would think there would normally be 5 beats, each beat divided into 3 parts. It appears that this is not always the case and the measure can be split into 3 beats with each beat subdivided into 5 parts. For more information see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quintuple_meter


Alright thanks. I figured it would be 5 beats, but I wasn't sure, I think the strange meter just scared me haha.


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## drpraetorus (Aug 9, 2012)

It does kind of depend on how fast you play it. Like 6/8 can be two fast beats or six slow beats. Which part of Fetes has that beat pattern? I know the piece but have never played it.


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## Novelette (Dec 12, 2012)

If the meter is changing between 6/8, 9/8, and 15/8, then it is unlikely that Debussy is altering the pattern of accents.

All three of those meters are compound meters, and so the rhythmic standard must be in three's, unless, like drpraetorus said, the work is in painfully slow tempo.

Whether in each beat consists of three or five notes would not really matter if the piece is fast enough, which would usually be impractical because of legibility.

So your counting should be 3 + 3 + 3 + 3 + 3.

Counting can be tricky business, especially with meters that aren't so frequent.


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## OboeKnight (Jan 25, 2013)

Novelette said:


> If the meter is changing between 6/8, 9/8, and 15/8, then it is unlikely that Debussy is altering the pattern of accents.
> 
> All three of those meters are compound meters, and so the rhythmic standard must be in three's, unless, like drpraetorus said, the work is in painfully slow tempo.
> 
> ...


Thank you. It is fairly quick and has a triplet feel nearly the whole time. So I think it would have to be 5 ,beats. I was fine with 6/8 and 9/8 but I'd never seen 15/8 before haha


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## Novelette (Dec 12, 2012)

OboeKnight said:


> Thank you. It is fairly quick and has a triplet feel nearly the whole time. So I think it would have to be 5 ,beats. I was fine with 6/8 and 9/8 but I'd never seen 15/8 before haha


Anytime, OboeKnight. 

Your impression of "triplet feeling" makes sense. Think of Beethoven's "Moonlight" Sonata. The first movement could have been written in 12/8 or in 4/4 with all triplets. Ultimately, there is no difference between the two. The notes are ultimately 24th notes whether in triplets in simple 4/4 meter, or in such compound meter as 12/8.

Edit: So you can think of 15/8 as being equivalent to 5/4 with triplets. The only ambiguity I see with 15/8 is a question of accent. The strong beat falls on the first note of the measure, but the subordinate beat could fall on either the third or the fourth cipher of three notes. It depends on the context of the work, and while you shouldn't play the accented notes any differently than any of the others, getting the accented rhythm could definitely assist you in your counting. Counting really can be tricky business, especially when playing Schumann on the piano!


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## hreichgott (Dec 31, 2012)

Fetes is an awesome piece! Novelette is right, 15/8 here = five groups of three triplets. In my score (piano reduction) there is a 5/4 section near the beginning that contains very similar material to the 15/8 section -- same rhythm (triplets), same melody, same harmony, same tempo, just a bit different octaves/inversions. I don't know why Debussy chose to write 5/4 in one place and 15/8 in the other, really. Maybe someone else knows? Anyway, this piece cooks along way too fast to allow for counting eighth notes. Just focus on the five larger beats. Those are the ones that need to be accented anyway.


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## Novelette (Dec 12, 2012)

Interesting, hreichgott. I must look at the score to see if I can figure out a reason to change from 5/4 to 15/8. Very strange indeed!


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## Novelette (Dec 12, 2012)

I'm looking at a piano reduction, too. I can see at the section marked "Un peu plus anime'", when the tempo changes from C to 5/4, auxiliary bar lines are placed to show the pattern of accents: strong beat on the first cipher of threes, and a subordinate beat on the beginning of the fourth.

The notation is terrible in this particular piano reduction! Look:









This section is in 3/4 time. Even though there is no number below the bass notes, it is clear that they are in triplets. But look at the relation of triplets to quarter notes. In simple time, the quarter notes represent a single beat, or two 8th notes. Triplets, by definition are three per beat.

Look at the quarter notes in the G clef of the third measure. We have a quarter, then eighth. Then again, a quarter, and an eighth. The alignment of triplets indicates that the quarter + eight are also in triplets, in other words, the quarter represents two triplets, and the following eighth the final triplet--all aligning to the underlying bass triplets. And the same rhythmic pattern follows once more. So far so good.

But look at what follows! A quarter carrying the rest of the third of the measure. It has magically reduced to duplet rather than triplet! Likewise in the following measure, a half note with an augmentation dot. But this notation is terribly messy! It's good manners to declare when a note value changes from triplet to duplet, especially when the change comes in mid-measure.

Borwick's arrangement is ghastly! Ravel's two-piano arrangement makes more sense.

Often in this piece, when the music is in 3/4, one voice is being set in duple, the other in triple. The opposition of the two rhythmic lines is called hemiola, and makes for an uneasy syncopation. That's the point here, the quarters often are set in simple time against compound time. The change to 9/8 puts all of the voices in triple time to align them more steadily.

In this piece, compound time sections are characterized by a steadier rhythmic motion. Simple time measures are characterized by the uneasy offset of simple time against compound time, or 2 against 3.

Debussy was a great composer, and it makes sense that he would want to disorient the listener, paradoxically in simple time, and reorient the listener's balance in compound time.


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## Novelette (Dec 12, 2012)

Sorry if that didn't make much sense. I realized what was going on half-way through writing it.

Also, I checked. The Borwick reduction is wrong. The error of note value that the image I posted illustrates does not exist in any other measure. In fact, it is the first two parts that are wrong, the quarter + eighth are not supposed to be in triplets, but in duplets. So the notes would be hemiolas, set against the galloping of the triplets. The last third of the third measure is correct, it's the first two that are wrong.


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## hreichgott (Dec 31, 2012)

I can't say I've ever heard that spot played as hemiolas -- only with a straightforward triplet pulse. There are definite hemiolas farther on in the piece, like these:















Anyway, you made me curious so I grabbed the orchestral score from imslp. And... the spot you mention is written in 9/8 in the orchestral score, not 3/4, with a dotted quarter where your red beat is! So Borwick may be even more misleading than we thought.

Then there's this, which totally proves your point about opposed rhythms; I should improve on my original answer to OboeKnight by saying "the meter depends on what instrument you are playing" !


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## Turangalîla (Jan 29, 2012)

Measure 23 (15/8) and measure 29 (5/4) are counted the same...they are both "1-2-3, 1-2", counted in quartet notes (divided into triplets).

And that's a great piece, by the way!


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## Novelette (Dec 12, 2012)

I usually don't like arrangements, because of things like this. Unless the arrangement is made by a very good musician. 

I'm not really familiar with this work. I definitely have to give it a listen!


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