# Pre-CD classical recordings (reissued on CD): Estimates???



## 13hm13 (Oct 31, 2016)

Digital recordings were pretty much_ de facto_ for classical starting in the early 1980s and henceforth.

CD was released to the public in roughly late 1982.

So, one can say almost all classical recordings (recorded digitally) have been issued on CD. (This excludes radio or tv recordings/broadcasts. E.g., BBC Proms, etc.)

But what about re-issues of recordings from roughly late 1940s to late 1970s? (For the sake of simplicity, lets's assume these are magnetic recordings, maybe some direct-to-disc).

Anyone know -- or care to guess -- how much (%) of the late 40s to late 70s repertoire made it to CD?

It's also okay to reply with just a personal remark like: 
"I have lot's of LPs in my collection that I've never been able to find on CD".

Thanks!


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

> "I have lot's of LPs in my collection that I've never been able to find on CD".


Regarding this line, see: 
Rare or Out of Print classical recordings you want to hear / own again?


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## Chi_townPhilly (Apr 21, 2007)

13hm13 said:


> Anyone know -- or care to guess -- how much (%) of the late 40s to late 70s repertoire made it to CD?


Ummm... not enough. Is that too glib?!

That being said, I recognize that the Classical re-release market isn't a charity- and there has to be some skin in the game for the rights-holders to put the half-century (and older) stuff out onto the market and have some hope that sufficient product will move to make financial sense for the companies involved.

As an American, I'm most familiar with the US material. I suppose we're pretty fortunate with 4 of the old 'Big-5' (or 'Big 6' [more on that later]) orchestras. Bernstein/NYPO is amazingly well-represented on disc. Ormandy/Philadelphia also has a trove out there. Reiner/Chicago and Szell/Cleveland not quite so much... but still, it's a hoard of repertoire- and at near rock-bottom prices. [And when you can find it used, you can sometimes pick it up for pennies on the dollar.]

Pre-Bernstein NY was kind of a special case. So was Boston. Music directorship in Boston went from Koussevitzky (pre-stereo) to Munch to Leinsdorf to Steinberg (briefly) before Ozawa-- so there was no singular face with the same salesmanship-juice as the telegenic Bernstein or Ormandy and their "Philadelphia Sound" slogan. I'm sure some great interpretations sit in storage in a few places,
but aren't likely to brought to light in this listening-climate.

That leaves Pittsburgh. During his tenure, there was a widely held view that Steinberg/Pittsburgh should be considered on equal footing with America's 'Big-5.' That- in reality, the US had a 'Big-6.' What I've heard of Pittsburgh recordings during that time (and that includes a vinyl Beethoven symphonies cycle that has been lost in the mists of multiple moves) leads me to the conclusion that such sentiment is not an exaggeration. They're sadly under-represented on CD... and that's not a situation I see changing anytime soon.


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## DaveM (Jun 29, 2015)

I don't know for sure, but my sense is that well over 50% of stereo classical recordings from the 50s on have been reissued on CD and that a much lower percentage of mono of the mid 50s and before has been. The reissuing of older stereo recordings started in a big way in the 90s. The cost to companies was much lower than new recordings and the reissues could be offered at a price that probably was more profitable than new recordings.


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

I have waited long for a CD issue of an HMV LP I used to own. This had Mravinsky conducting Sibelius 7 and Shostakovitch 6. I remember the very distinctive brass sound of the Soviet orchestra (Leningrad Phil) - the warbling trombone in the Sibelius was a real treat! - and also that the performances were excellent. But I have heard many more performances of both works since then so I could not swear that the performances were as good as I remember them. But I would snap up that CD if it ever gets issued.


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## 13hm13 (Oct 31, 2016)

DaveM said:


> The cost to companies was much lower than new recordings and the reissues could be offered at a price that probably was more profitable than new recordings.


The media companies play a tricky game. Orchestra's and musicians do rely on income from recording sales (not sure to what extent -- i.e., compared to nonprofit funding, State/govt funding, concert-ticket sales, film-score sessions, etc.). 
I've heard that classical music popularity has taken a hit in the past few decades (not enough interest due to shifting age/taste demographics -- not sure).
Media companies have been heavily lambasted by pop/rock musicians for over-profiteering (= not sharing the wealth with artists). Certainly, the price of a single CD was roughly 2x that of Lp -- even when the production costs of CD pressings shrank to less than $1.00 (and below).

Shifting gears ... the topic of re-releasing pre-CD recordings is also greatly dependent on availability of quality source material -- analog tape disintegrates with age (and tape's iron particles lose their magnetic fields over time) . Restoration can be $$ as the RCA Living Stereo and Mercury Living Presence projects have shown. Not only that, but in the early days to magnetic recording -- after lacquer had been cut -- the same master tape was erased and reused (the stuff was $$). Indeed, due to tape costs, even the govt-funded BBC used to tape over much of its TV programs until early 1970s.


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## MarkW (Feb 16, 2015)

Pretty much (but not completely) everything worth remastering from analogue to digital has been re-issued. If it's considered either musically worth it or there's enough of a projected market, it has been/will be done. It's a lot cheaper to transfer an existing property than to record anew. I had 1000s of LPs -- but most of the ones that meant anything to me were re-issued.


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## premont (May 7, 2015)

Very much valuable Early Music stuff from the 1950es, 1960es and even 1970es still awaits a CD release, for instance from the labels Archive, DHM and Telefunken Das Alte Werk.


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## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

There's a LOT that has never been released, and most people today aren't even aware it exists: Back in the 50's and even into the 60's there was a glimmer of hope for Americans embracing classical music and this led to quite a few mail-order record clubs. They had their own labels and recordings. One set we had came in handsome red folders to lend some prestige. There was another that had a blue label and the records came in nice vinyl sleeves. For the life of me I can't remember the label names. But I do remember some Mozart piano concertos played and conducted by Szell - and this wasn't in Cleveland, either. A truncated but fascinating Gliere Ilya Murometz. And many more. Then came Musical Heritage Society which also had it's own stable of performers in Europe. Some of their recordings have made it to cd, and in later years they just repackaged major label recordings. Reader's Digest also had it's own label and they had some terrific, first class recordings. Some of them have made it to cd: the Earl Wild Rachmaninoff set, Barbirolli's Sibelius 2nd, the Leibowitz Beethoven symphonies. Many did appear on LP some 40 years ago that you could get when RD stopped selling them, but not many made it to cd. There was one fabulous set, A Treasury of Light Classics, that would be quite welcome as a cd set. Add to this all the odd labels (Checkmate? Pickwick?) and mostly European labels (Pye for example) or Melodiya, and there must be a vast library never released on cd. How much of it would be worth exploring? I have no idea.


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## DaveM (Jun 29, 2015)

mbhaub said:


> There's a LOT that has never been released, and most people today aren't even aware it exists: Back in the 50's and even into the 60's there was a glimmer of hope for Americans embracing classical music and this led to quite a few mail-order record clubs. They had their own labels and recordings. One set we had came in handsome red folders to lend some prestige. There was another that had a blue label and the records came in nice vinyl sleeves. For the life of me I can't remember the label names. But I do remember some Mozart piano concertos played and conducted by Szell - and this wasn't in Cleveland, either. A truncated but fascinating Gliere Ilya Murometz. And many more. Then came Musical Heritage Society which also had it's own stable of performers in Europe. Some of their recordings have made it to cd, and in later years they just repackaged major label recordings. Reader's Digest also had it's own label and they had some terrific, first class recordings. Some of them have made it to cd: the Earl Wild Rachmaninoff set, Barbirolli's Sibelius 2nd, the Leibowitz Beethoven symphonies. Many did appear on LP some 40 years ago that you could get when RD stopped selling them, but not many made it to cd. There was one fabulous set, A Treasury of Light Classics, that would be quite welcome as a cd set. Add to this all the odd labels (Checkmate? Pickwick?) and mostly European labels (Pye for example) or Melodiya, and there must be a vast library never released on cd. How much of it would be worth exploring? I have no idea.


I'm not convinced that there is a lot of truly original classical recordings from these sources. So many clubs simply reissued already recorded material. So much of Musical Heritage Society's output was reissues from small European companies such as Erato & Amadeo. Its original material was issued under the MusicMasters label and was likely less in numbers than the reissues.

Readers Digest's original output is harder to nail down. There were reissues from RCA and Decca, but RCA apparently also recorded original material for RD. Again, from what I can determine, the latter would certainly be of interest, but was probably a minority of the total RD output.


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## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

The Concert Hall Society was one! In the middle of THIS SITE there's quite a list of things I had forgotten about - like records they sold in grocery stores.


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## DaveM (Jun 29, 2015)

mbhaub said:


> The Concert Hall Society was one! In the middle of THIS SITE there's quite a list of things I had forgotten about - like records they sold in grocery stores.


Thanks for the link. Interesting story about the Concert Hall Society and its original recordings. Remington Records was mentioned which brought back fond memories. I didn't have much money in my younger days and Remington Records could be had for just a few dollars.


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## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

There are some independent record companies that are busy transferring out of copyright material from LPs made in the 50s and early 60s.

In fact I was going to do it myself at one time - but I doubted if it would be financially viable.

A lot of the budget recordings (Nonesuch, Turnabout and record club labels) will never appear in CD unless the artist is noteable.

Easrly music? Forget it.


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## Larkenfield (Jun 5, 2017)

No estimates other than what doesn't show up on CD when one is looking for it. One can't expect miracles. But I would think that the percentage is much higher than expected. Be grateful or one may be obligated to take up the turntable again. I loved the age of vinyl despite its pops and surface noise. Vinyl had _soul_.


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## 13hm13 (Oct 31, 2016)

stomanek said:


> There are some independent record companies that are busy transferring out of copyright material from LPs made in the 50s and early 60s.
> 
> In fact I was going to do it myself at one time - but I doubted if it would be financially viable.
> 
> ...


I posted on The Electric Mastering Co. (UK) prev. They are re-releasing "classic" recordings on LP at very high prices.

https://www.theguardian.com/music/2013/may/25/pete-hutchison-interview-new-vinyl-recording

Not sure these will make it CD (or digital). Tho' some of it was prev. released EMI CD.


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## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

13hm13 said:


> I posted on The Electric Mastering Co. (UK) prev. They are re-releasing "classic" recordings on LP at very high prices.
> 
> https://www.theguardian.com/music/2013/may/25/pete-hutchison-interview-new-vinyl-recording
> 
> Not sure these will make it CD (or digital). Tho' some of it was prev. released EMI CD.


oh yes I saw that article - too expensive.


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## Prodromides (Mar 18, 2012)

There are no handy statistics that I'm aware of, 13hm13, which would offer accurate percentages on whichever (mono or stereo) analog recordings have been re-issued into digital format and that which remains un-reissued.

From my personal collecting experience, I've encountered some 20th-century composers whose (recorded) music might well be 50% (or more) prior to digital technology. Whilst there can be some digital recordings from 1979 & 1980, there have also been albums released well into 1984 & 1985 that were analog recordings.

Consider only one composer: Jean Prodromidès (my TC user name).

1) *Les Perses* (1961), a television oratorio which had a vinyl LP release via the Philips label. To my knowledge, this has never been re-issued onto CD (and probably never will be) due to so-called 'obscurity'. Yet, Philips remains one of the reliable labels to offer classical music via commercial discs.










2) *Le livre des Katuns* (1977), a cantata which surfaced (along with a couple of other Prodromides works) in 1981 on vinyl LP courtesy "Chant du Monde". Who knows which entity currently holds the 'right's to this label and/or these recordings? Another album likely never to be on CD.










3) *H.H. Ulysse* an opera which came in an LP boxed-set in 1985 from Harmonia Mundi, another significant classical music label which may never re-issue something such as this.










Prodromides had 2 additional operas issued onto CDs during the 1990s, so in this composer's case 3 out of 5 of his major albums remain on vinyl only ...


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## geralmar (Feb 15, 2013)

Budget label Remington Records is accorded its own website; but amusingly the website creator doesn't think the recordings deserve that much attention.

http://www.soundfountain.org/rem/dongabor.html

My entry into classical music was through Music Treasures of the World (the "blue label"), which were sold through mail subscription. The parent company was American Recording Society, which besides maintaining its own label licensed many of the recordings to Urania. In the later 1950s or early '60s the recordings turned up in The Philharmonic Family Library of Great Music-- orchestras and conductors unidentified, and sold in cheaply packaged weekly installments in grocery stores.

Music Treasures records (usually battered) still turn up occasionally in thrift shops. What I've never seen mentioned is that the label actually had two iterations. The first, in the early fifties, packaged the LPs in generic paper " keyhole" sleeves. These were my parents' records. When the subscription service was resurrected in 1968, the records were now packaged in generic heavy vinyl sleeves. The parent company this time was Grolier, the encyclopedia company. I joined and chose to receive the "electronic stereo" versions. These records had red labels and the stereo was undistinguishable from mono. I paid $3.50 an L.P. with incomplete warning about what was coming the next month. I quickly lost interest since at the same time I was paying about $3.00 an LP for classical records through a subsidiary of the Columbia Record Club. Plus, with Columbia I was getting "name" conductors and orchestras on superior vinyl.

ARS recordings were mostly third rank European orchestras with capable but relatively obscure conductors (e.g., Swarowsky). I don't believe any made it to official CD release, although a few recordings can be found on private "boutique" labels. I have a fair number of Music Treasures records and am tempted to prepare a discography; however that is extremely difficult since without the sleeve it is impossible to tell if the record is an original release or a reissue: the reissues had the same catalogue numbers as the originals but not necessarily the same works. Simply put, I would have to prepare two discographies for ancient recordings of interest only to me. Hell, maybe I'll do it anyway.


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## 13hm13 (Oct 31, 2016)

Gotta give some love to Naxos.

While many of their releases are so-so, they have kept prices low. And some of their original releases have been excellent (e.g., Samuel Barber cycle).

They have re-released some rarities including Bechara El Khoury (e.g., early 1980s recordings from France).

Not sure if Naxos can dig into the unreleased analog catalog. Tho' if anyone has the resources (concurrent with commitment to classical), it's Naxos.


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