# A Paradox



## superhorn (Mar 23, 2010)

In the thread on member's musical pet peeves , somebody, I forget who , mentioned the supposed
"lack of personality " of today's musicians while praising the great ones of the past for having 
an abundance of this elusive musical quality of "personality", whatever that might be .
Supposedly, today's young performers are obsessed with technique ,speed and accuracy 
at the expense of interpretive flair, imagination , spontaneity and individuality , a complaint
which I have been observing among critics and listeners for decades !
We are told that today's performers are much too "literal " in interpretation , often to the point of
being pedantic about it. They're deathly afraid to take liberties with the score and take
interpretive risks . I've been hearing this questionable sweeping generalization since I was just
a teenager who had been smitten with the classical music bug .
Yet paradoxically , I wish I had a dollar for every scathing review of young pianists , conductors, 
opera singers etc I've read over the years , in which the hapless young musicians were 
mercilessly lambasted by captious critics for all the liberties which they took with the music ,
exaggerated rubato etc . These negative reviews have been for both recordings and live performances . 
Somehow, it just doesn't add up . Either young performers are far too cautious and literal in
their approach to the music , or they take too many liberties with the music and distort it .
Critics can't have it both ways . For example, if the conventional wisdom were true , the 
controversial Lang Lang would be too literal a pianist . Yet so many critics have blasted him for
being too flamboyant, flashy and freewheeling a pianist . 
Not to mention his mugging on stage and facial idiosyncracies . Horowitz, the ultimate flashy 
piano virtuoso , is lionized for the very things that Lang Lang is blasted for .
Let's face it ; this is a double standard . 
If you're a young or even middle aged classical musician , you're damned if you do , and damned if you
don't when it comes to interpreting music , while famous ones from the past are praised uncritically .
He's pretty much forgotten today , but the Ukrainian pianist Vladimir De Pachmann was a big
name in classical music in the latter half of the 19 and early 20th century , and left a number of
recordings which are proized by piano buffs .
De Pachmann may have been the most eccentric performer who ever lived in his behavior on stage .
He would chat with members of the audience during performances , comment on his own playing
IN THE MIDDLE OF A PERFRMANCE , and even flirted with pretty girls during a recital .
According to one report , after he had played a work, right in front of the audience , he dropped to his knees 
and looked for "notes he had missed " under the piano ! 
If a young pianist today behaved like this, critics would recommend that he or she be put in a mental
institution ! The late New York Times music critic Harold C. Schonberg, one of the foremost authorities on famous pianists
of the past and present , described De Pachmann's wacky behavior on stage in one of his books. He didn't criticize him, 
but thought his behavior very quaint and amusing ! Double standard again .
It's a tough job being a prominet classical musician today . You can't win for losing .


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

Hmm....from what I had gathered by listening to recordings myself, I would say that less personality in the music is more common in the performance of early romantic, classical, 20th century and baroque music up until the 80s. It seems more to me that a performance is more likely to be exactly how it is written in the score rather than include any personal expressive additions. This is probably due to a much more limited access to information on how this music was performed (incl. books, recordings and so on). Compare an early recording of Schoenberg's violin concerto with Hahn's, or [orgainst and conducter] Richter's Bach Brandenburgs with any modern recording and you can clearly hear the difference.

With your comments on eccentric personalities in the music scene...well I certainly know a few up and coming performers who would be more than willing to both take music seriously whilst also being an entertainer.


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## Radames (Feb 27, 2013)

superhorn said:


> De Pachmann may have been the most eccentric performer who ever lived in his behavior on stage .
> He would chat with members of the audience during performances , comment on his own playing
> IN THE MIDDLE OF A PERFRMANCE , and even flirted with pretty girls during a recital .
> According to one report , after he had played a work, right in front of the audience , he dropped to his knees
> and looked for "notes he had missed " under the piano !


Sounds like something Victor Borge would have done.

What do you get when you drop a piano down a mine shaft?
A flat minor. 
What do you get when you drop a piano on an army base?
A flat major

________________________.___________________________________________________--

As for the paradox; isn't it like that with ALL art? Some people are going to like the conventional and some are going to like the eccentric. People are always going to find something to complain about. I don't know why. If you don't like a certain performer then just don't listen to him or her.


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## SONNET CLV (May 31, 2014)

Of course, the paradox continues as ... all the stage personality, antics, and shenanigans mean nothing when listening to an audio recording where any visuals of the concert hall are moot points. If you don't like Lang Lang's stage presence, you might still enjoy his recordings in your darkened listening room. Of course, stage antics can help entertain and even take some focus away from lack of proficiency in the music, while a recording will focus all your attention on the music. Attending a concert can prove intriguing just to watch the conductor or soloist ... or even the percussion players way in the back. But in the end what you really want to do is listen to the music ... unless you _did_ go to hear Victor Borge perform. Then the music is a secondary concern. But that's all right.


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## superhorn (Mar 23, 2010)

De Pachmann was not doing comedy . He was dead serious . He was apparently a wackaloon
with a lot of musical talent .


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## aleazk (Sep 30, 2011)

superhorn said:


> a wackaloon with a lot of musical talent .


haha, yeah, but we have many of these in the classical music world!


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## ArtMusic (Jan 5, 2013)

We need more personalities like Lang Lang at the piano.


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

ArtMusic said:


> We need more personalities like GLENN GOULD at the piano.


Right you are, sir!


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## joen_cph (Jan 17, 2010)

_Martin Fröst_ is one of the contemporary musicians experimenting with performance style (dancing while playing etc.), and he´s an excellent musician too. _Christian Zaccharias, Daniel Hope, Nigel Kennedy, Fasil Say, Jordi Savall _and various cross-over musians are other examples of trying to break down concert and score conventions. I tend to find it refreshing and interesting, unless they descend into something too pop-like or un-musical.

Overall, I have a preference for exploring the eccentricities and emotionalism of 1930 - 1960 recordings, as supplements to modern ones with better sound, however. The majority of modern musicians can be quite anonymous by comparison.


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## Guest (Jul 10, 2014)

Just a quick observation.

There's nothing in any of this that is paradoxical. Contradictory, sure thing.

But a paradox? No paradoxes have been harmed (or even mentioned) in this thread.


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## ArtMusic (Jan 5, 2013)

Lang Lang - even his dress, not the boring black and white penguin attire.


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## Piwikiwi (Apr 1, 2011)

ArtMusic said:


> We need more personalities like Samson Francois at the piano.


Although there are more then enough good pianists out there.


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## ptr (Jan 22, 2013)

SONNET CLV said:


>


The problem is that Lang Lang does not come close to Börge Rosenbaum's stage presence! (Even if I'm sure that LL has studied every film there is with VB, just to mimic the great man)

/ptr


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## Piwikiwi (Apr 1, 2011)

ArtMusic said:


> Lang Lang - even his dress, not the boring black and white penguin attire.


But now he looks more like a cross between a crow and a peacock, I don't know if that is such and improvement


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

Piwikiwi said:


> But now he looks more like a cross between a crow and a peacock, I don't know if that is such and improvement


Its the ornithological ambiguity that audiences find so compelling of these younger performers.


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## Piwikiwi (Apr 1, 2011)

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> Its the ornithological ambiguity that audiences find so compelling to these younger performers.


Today's audiences would love Charlie "Bird" Parker then.


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## Nereffid (Feb 6, 2013)

Golden Age thinking. "Things were so much better back in the day" - almost invariably (and by sheer coincidence!) back in the speaker's formative years. Some of us are more susceptible to it than others. For classical performers the existence of recordings has probably made it a bit tougher because the critic can still listen to the performance that so impressed him 60 years ago.


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## joen_cph (Jan 17, 2010)

But the liberties of the old days generally had a different character than those taken today. They mostly can' t be compared and called similar as regards the content.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

superhorn said:


> I*n the thread on member's musical pet peeves , somebody, I forget who , mentioned the supposed*
> "*lack of personality " of today's musicians while praising the great ones of the past for having*
> *an abundance of this elusive musical quality of "personality", whatever that might be .*
> Supposedly, today's young performers are obsessed with technique ,speed and accuracy
> ...


Yes. That would be me and I stand by my opinion. I can easily identify the playing of Francescatti, Stern, Menuhin, Heifetz and Milstein. Today's violinists, not. Most of them sound the same to me.

Never said today's performers aren't "good"; simply that they play like machines. I thank the important musical competitions for that; conservatories seem to prepare its musicians to do well there and the emphasis seems to be on technique for its own sake.

Sorry, but that's my point of view.


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## Vesteralen (Jul 14, 2011)

I really don't know about this. I have heard a good bit of playing that seems long on technique but short on individuality these days.

On the other hand, I was blown away when I heard the old warhorse, the Mendelssohn E minor Violin Concerto performed by James Ehnes. I thought I was incapable of responding to this piece in view of how many times I've heard it over the last 40+ years, but this performance, for me, was nothing short of revelatory.

So, I'm not going to generalize about modern performers.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Yes, but could you identify Ehnes playing, given say four recordings of another piece, with he being one of the performers?


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## Vesteralen (Jul 14, 2011)

hpowders said:


> Yes, but could you identify Ehnes playing, given say four recordings of another piece, with he being one of the performers?


I doubt it, but to be honest, I couldn't do that with anyone's playing, so it seems a moot point.


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## Nereffid (Feb 6, 2013)

hpowders said:


> Yes. That would be me and I stand by my opinion. I can easily identify the playing of Francescatti, Stern, Menuhin, Heifetz and Milstein. Today's violinists, not. Most of them sound the same to me.
> 
> Never said today's performers aren't "good"; simply that they play like machines. I thank the important musical competitions for that; conservatories seem to prepare its musicians to do well there and the emphasis seems to be on technique for its own sake.
> 
> Sorry, but that's my point of view.


I won't dispute your statement that you can identify the older violinists but not the younger ones, but isn't it possible that some of this is simply down to greater familiarity with them? I'm not sure how old you are, but I'm guessing you've had a few decades more listening to violinists of Francescatti's vintage.


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## Radames (Feb 27, 2013)

I've never heard anyone with the nervous fast vibrato like Francescatti's. I suppose someone today could imitate it, but I have not heard anyone do it. I could probably recognize Heifetz's impeccable technique and precision in any recording. I think there used to be more variability in playing of both soloists and conductors. And orchestras. Probably as a result of globalization. I remember reading an interview with Jukka-Pekka Saraste where he said "But as to my opinion some kind of globalization has taken place amongst orchestras and they do not have so much individual character any more. The musicians have all studied at various music academies at home and abroad and play in a very similar fashion. I believe it would be good for the orchestras to establish academies of their own in order to give themselves more identity again." http://jukkapekkasaraste.com/2013/1...ith-jukka-pekka-saraste/#sthash.4AaMsvlw.dpuf


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## superhorn (Mar 23, 2010)

I've never bought the notion that orchestras have become "homogenized " and have lost their "individual
sounds ". In fact, they still sound very different from each other . Dofferent orchestras consist of different
musicians playing different makes of instruments in concert halls with different acoustics, so it's 
actually IMPOSSIBLE for them to sound the same .
There have been CHANGES in the way some orchestras sound over the years because of turnover of personnel,
which is inevitable , but no internationalized sameness . 
For example, German and American oboists, have totally different timbres . Many listeners and critics in the U.S.
don't like the German oboe sound, which they consider too harsh and reedy , and a German oboist would 
never win an audition in a U.S. orchestra , and an American oboist would probably not win an audition for a
German orchestra .


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## ptr (Jan 22, 2013)

^^ I have a found memory from sitting in on the rehearsal of Mahler's third with Sir Simon Rattle and The Gothenburg Symphony, and Sir Simon addressing the oboist;

- Rattle; You have the most wonderful tone in the world.

- Oboist; shines like a sun

- Rattle; but it is completely wrong for this passage, it should sound like a donkey shrieking at the world..

- Oboist; looking perplexed like someone has stolen his bag of treasured candy..

- Rattle; Sings the passage like a shrieking donkey, and it makes perfect sense..

- A general laugh of understanding, rehearsal continues...

I wish I could remember what the rehearsal numbers where (To many years ago and my memory is failing by the day), because most conductors don't register this detail and let their oboist play as beautiful as they can, playing it ugly tho, makes everything so much more Mahler!

/ptr


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## SONNET CLV (May 31, 2014)

A paradox.









*Margaret Hee-Leng Tan *-- Born in Singapore on 12 December 1945, and started taking music lessons at the age of six. In 1961 the young Tan took first place in the Singapore-Malaysia annual piano competition, and won a scholarship to study at The Juilliard School at age 16 in the following year. In 1971 *she became the first woman to earn a a DMA (Doctorate in Musical Arts) at Juilliard*; Juilliard added the degree in 1969, the year it moved to Lincoln Center.









*Will Gay Bottje* -- Born in 1925 in Grand Rapids, Michigan, received his bachelor's degree in flute and his master's degree in composition at the Juilliard School before coming to Eastman, *where he was the first person to receive the degree Doctor of Musical Arts (1955) from any institution.*


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## superhorn (Mar 23, 2010)

A pafradox -two physicians .


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## SONNET CLV (May 31, 2014)

ptr said:


> ^^ I have a found memory from sitting in on the rehearsal of Mahler's third with Sir Simon Rattle and The Gothenburg Symphony, and Sir Simon addressing the oboist;
> 
> - Rattle; You have the most wonderful tone in the world.
> 
> ...


Hey, thanks for that observation. I now have complete confidence that I _can_ become a competent Mahler musician. Because I can certainly do "ugly" when it comes to playing an instrument. When might I audition?


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## SONNET CLV (May 31, 2014)

Re: Lang Lang



Piwikiwi said:


> But now he looks more like a cross between a crow and a peacock, I don't know if that is such and improvement





ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> Its the ornithological ambiguity that audiences find so compelling of these younger performers.


Of course, he can always make a career out of playing nothing but the _Catalogue d'oiseaux _ by Messiaen.


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

some guy said:


> Just a quick observation.
> 
> There's nothing in any of this that is paradoxical. Contradictory, sure thing.
> 
> But a paradox? No paradoxes have been harmed (or even mentioned) in this thread.


While there are present fundamental and very strong misconceptions of what constitutes musical personality... and the citing a musician/performer's idiosyncratic tics, or a particular notion of "Taking liberties with the score" just underlines those misconceptions -- enough, that I really don't know where to begin... so I won't.


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