# Different tempo ruining it all



## TresPicos (Mar 21, 2009)

A while ago, I heard an orchestra (don't remember which one) play Manuel de Fallas Three-cornered hat suite painfully slow, which robbed it of all its beauty. 

I know that composers often just marked a tempo interval in which they intended their piece to be played, e g Allegro or Adagio, which created room for interpretation. But wouldn't the music world over time have come to some kind of consensus regarding which tempo or at least narrower tempo interval actually works best for Beethoven's Pastoral Symphony or "You really shouldn't play Eine Kleine Nachtmusik faster than this, because..."

But maybe my de Falla disappointment was just the result of the fact that the first time I heard it, it was played faster? And if I had heard the slow version first, I would hate the faster version and rant about that stupid conductor. 

What are your thoughts? Does the first tempo we hear automatically become the "correct" one? How difficult is it to reconsider later on? 

And is it a good thing that the tempo is open for interpretation to that degree? 

Sometimes that makes me feel like I'm having an exquisite dinner at a luxury restaurant, where every little detail is perfect, but then the meat they serve is burned beyond regognition, and you wonder why they bother about all the less important details when they ruin it all by failing at the "basics".


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## Tapkaara (Apr 18, 2006)

This is a very good topic.

I think that conductors should have the leeway to interpret works at tempi that are (slightly)faster/slower than what is considered to be normal. This is, after all, why we have conductors. They are more than time beaters, they are interpretors. They seeks to share music with the public they way they hear it in their heads. Conductors should have this "right."

Obviously, however, if a score marks 75 beats per minute for a certain passage and the conductor decides to go 110 beats per minute, this would be extreme. Adagios should not be turned into prestos. But again, some reasonable variance in tempi should be expected and allowed.

And yes, I am sure for many of us, when we first hear a work, the first performance we hear becomes our personal benchmark and all other interpretations will end up being measured against it.

The first recording I owned of the Karelia Suite, for example, is conducted by Sir Malcolm Sargent. He takes the Intermezzo at a fairly swift tempo. It seems, though, that he is one of the swifter ones on record because all other performances seem slower to me. But as it turns out, the slower tempi are the standard.


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## scytheavatar (Aug 27, 2009)

If all performances are kept at the same tempo, Furtwangler who is known for extreme tempos would have never been popular.


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## Artemis (Dec 8, 2007)

Correct tempo is important but it's only one of several factors that bother me when assessing different interpretations of a work. To answer the question posed, I am not greatly influenced by the tempo of the first recording I happened to hear of any work that I still like. Furthermore, generally speaking I'm sceptical of the notion so frequently banded about that certain historical performances of particular pieces can't be bettered by more modern versions. Thus if the latest thinking is that a particular work should be played faster/slower than was typically the case decades ago then I'm quite happy to go along with that. A good example is provided by Beethoven symphonies, where the HIP movement has generally led to a faster set of tempos with a much crisper, more dynamic sound. Although somewhat sceptical at first, these now sound far better to me than some of the older, more traditional versions with all their over-blown, slushy characterisations, that would probably have sent Beethoven tearing his hair out if he could have heard them.


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## Tapkaara (Apr 18, 2006)

What is the HIP movement?


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## Artemis (Dec 8, 2007)

Tapkaara said:


> What is the HIP movement?


You know, hippies and all that: Pot, LSD, Maharishi Yogi. Groovy man.


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## Artemis (Dec 8, 2007)

Although some people seem to think that HIP it has something to with THIS

where it states:

_"_Historically informed performance (also referred to as period performance, or authentic performance) is an approach, or movement, in the performance of classical music.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classical_music"


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## Tapkaara (Apr 18, 2006)

Artemis said:


> Although some people seem to think that HIP it has something to with THIS
> 
> where it states:
> 
> _"_Historically informed performance (also referred to as period performance, or authentic performance) is an approach, or movement, in the performance of classical music.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classical_music"


Ah, thanks for the explanation!! Groovy man! (Let's listen to some Foghat.)


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## SalieriIsInnocent (Feb 28, 2008)

Your first recording of a composition usually leaves the best impression. I can't listen to Beethoven's 5th or 7th in a fast tempo. It really depends. For years I was in love with Karajan's Pictures at an Exhibition and no other recording was good enough, but i tried Abbado's recording and fell in deeper love with it. You really have to remember that when you are buying a recording of for example Beethoven's 3rd ,you are really listening to the conductor's interpretation


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## Polednice (Sep 13, 2009)

I agree that the first recording of a piece you listen to leaves a great impression, but I don't think that it always leaves the _best_ impression. One of the great things about exploring classical music is that - rare though it might be - there will be times when you listen to another interpretation of a piece and you think, "Wow! I didn't think there could ever be a better recording than the one I have!"

Regarding tempo, one particular piece where nothing matches up to my first recording is Schumann's Piano Concerto. The first version of the third movement I ever heard is apparently faster than all other recordings, and now, any other version seems painfully slow. Unfortunately, I acquired the recording when I was young and naive and didn't care for who was playing a particular piece, so I have no idea who the conductor or pianist is! Instead, I've done the rather horrible thing of listening to Jeno Jando's recording of the first two movements and then tack on the third movement by someone else I don't know :/ I know, I'm disgusted with myself too!


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## Herr Direktor (Oct 18, 2009)

> Does the first tempo we hear automatically become the "correct" one? How difficult is it to reconsider later on?


Great topic.

The above question is spot-on as far as I'm concerned. Yes, usually the first recording/performance is what most deem to be 'correct' and it is quite difficult to wrap around a better/different performance later on.

When I was about 25, I received a CD for Christmas of Solti conducting the CSO in the Ninth (Beethoven). At this point, having been to music school, and being a professional violinist, I had heard the piece hundreds of times. The first movement was so @$! slow I almost laughed. Then after another few listens, I heard things I had never heard before, and the movement took on a wonderfully dark feeling that I can't get enough of now.

There has never been a performance or recording with the opening movement so slow, but I think it works and I eventually took hold and won't let go now. Mahler is another composer that one can hold onto one's first experience. I had only heard the Bernstein and Solti Mahler for a long time, until I listened to a few others. Eye opening to say the least.

So, yes it is possible to get away from what one thinks is the 'correct' tempo of a given piece, but not easily. It's a shame because there are certainly works that are wonderful even at different tempi. Mahler, again is a great example.

HD


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## kmisho (Oct 22, 2009)

I don't think people are necessarily locked into what they learn. Maybe a lot are, but it doesn't have to be that way.

One example for me was Prokoviev's 5th. I'd heard many versions. But when I heard Leonard Slatkin's award winning version, I said "Aha! somebody finally got it right."

I think Bach's The Sheep may Safely Graze is normally played too slow. I was playing it myself (on organ) and had a sense the tempo was wrong. When I bumped it up to about eighth note = 70 I literally started to cry.

Another example of slow tempo ruining it, at least in my opinion, is Previn's 2002 version of Rachmaninoff's 2nd. Excruciatingly, horrifyingly, tortuously slow to my ears.


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## Saturnus (Nov 7, 2006)

A good example of fast tempo ruining is Beethoven's 5th, the score says 2/4 Allegro, the three first notes (the fate motif) being 8th notes. All recordings I've heard play it Presto or even 1/2 Allegro. I think by keeping more calm the music could become even more sinister and convincing.


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## Lukecash12 (Sep 21, 2009)

Artemis said:


> Although some people seem to think that HIP it has something to with THIS
> 
> where it states:
> 
> _"_Historically informed performance (also referred to as period performance, or authentic performance) is an approach, or movement, in the performance of classical music.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classical_music"


Yes! That is exactly what I aspire to in a performance.


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## nickgray (Sep 28, 2008)

I had that thingy about the "correct" tempo when I started to listen to classical music. Lucky for me one of the first conductors I got into was Celibidache and it were his interpretations that showed me that tempo is just the tip of the iceberg. Hope it makes sense


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## World Violist (May 31, 2007)

There is a wonderful thread elsewhere in TC about a person whose most notable victim has been Beethoven...


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## Saturnus (Nov 7, 2006)

You must be speaking about Cobra, who also didn't stick to the score, but decided that everything should be played half as slow... (which is even worse than playing it too fast). For collectors of the Beethoven cycle it's probably fun to have one extreemely slow recordng but I don't know how anyone can truly like these recordings.


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## World Violist (May 31, 2007)

Saturnus said:


> You must be speaking about Cobra, who also didn't stick to the score, but decided that everything should be played half as slow... (which is even worse than playing it too fast). For collectors of the Beethoven cycle it's probably fun to have one extreemely slow recordng but I don't know how anyone can truly like these recordings.


Yes, Maximmiano Cobra is the person to whom I was referring.

I personally think that the slowest Beethoven 9th I'd be willing to listen to is one by someone who cares about making it monumental rather than making it slow. At least then they care about musicality.


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## Saturnus (Nov 7, 2006)

I share that opinion and I think nobody really cares about the tempo in itself.


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## nickgray (Sep 28, 2008)

World Violist said:


> about making it monumental rather than making it slow


Try Celibidache. Most of his late works sound monumental as hell. Oh, and there's also his Mozart's Requiem, one of the best interpretations I've heard.


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