# Vienna Phil enters atonement phase?



## KenOC

Remember the hoo-rah a while ago about the Vienna Philharmonic and its questionable past with the Nazis and its own Jewish musicians? Here's some new news.

"VIENNA (AP) - The famed Vienna Philharmonic orchestra has quietly stripped six former senior Nazi officials of honors awarded them - a late act of contrition for its embrace of the Hitler era that included purging Jewish members from its ranks." Full story:

http://bigstory.ap.org/article/vienna-philharmonic-strips-ex-nazis-honors


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## Vesteralen

Edited because I wasn't happy with it


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## Vesteralen

I was hoping this was going to be about hiring ten or twelve women musicians.


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## samurai

Better late than never, I guess. :devil:


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## moody

KenOC said:


> Remember the hoo-rah a while ago about the Vienna Philharmonic and its questionable past with the Nazis and its own Jewish musicians? Here's some new news.
> 
> "VIENNA (AP) - The famed Vienna Philharmonic orchestra has quietly stripped six former senior Nazi officials of honors awarded them - a late act of contrition for its embrace of the Hitler era that included purging Jewish members from its ranks." Full story:
> 
> http://bigstory.ap.org/article/vienna-philharmonic-strips-ex-nazis-honors


How laughable, the whole story leaves a bad taste.


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## Mahlerian

Vesteralen said:


> I was hoping this was going to be about hiring ten or twelve women musicians.


There are still a number of things the Vienna Philharmonic is waiting to apologize for. They probably want to stagger apologies for maximum spread of semi-good will.


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## KenOC

Of course they might not apologize if the war had gone otherwise. And we might not expect them to.


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## Aramis

Vesteralen said:


> I was hoping this was going to be about hiring ten or twelve women musicians.


Why, the title mentions atonement, not new fatal mistakes.


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## superhorn

It's not fair to blame the current VPO for the unfortunate things which happened in its past .
None of its current members were even alive during WW2 , and some of them are not even from Austria .


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## ahammel

superhorn said:


> It's not fair to blame the current VPO for the unfortunate things which happened in its past .
> None of its current members were even alive during WW2 , and some of them are not even from Austria .


I don't think anybody's blaming the current members. It's a pretty common-sensical PR move to say "hey, remember that time this organization sucked up to the Nazis? Yeah, that was a bad thing to do."


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## ahammel

ahammel said:


> I don't think anybody's blaming the current members. It's a pretty common-sensical PR move to say "hey, remember that time this organization sucked up to the Nazis? Yeah, that was a bad thing to do."


And by PR I mean "public relations", not "Google page ranking", although that's probably true as well.


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## scratchgolf

They are well behind us Americans. We've mastered the art of apologizing, 3 generations later, for past transgressions. It's almost an art form here. Don't worry. My great grandson will apologize for this post, in 75 years.


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## moody

superhorn said:


> It's not fair to blame the current VPO for the unfortunate things which happened in its past .
> None of its current members were even alive during WW2 , and some of them are not even from Austria .


Surely nobody is blaming the players but the board and management.


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## moody

ahammel said:


> I don't think anybody's blaming the current members. It's a pretty common-sensical PR move to say "hey, remember that time this organization sucked up to the Nazis? Yeah, that was a bad thing to do."


I've almost said the same as you ,excuse me.
I suppose the families of Jewish members who ended up in concentration camps and were gassed will accept this ???
The Austrians were worse than the Germans as Nazi supporters.


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## KenOC

moody said:


> I suppose the families of Jewish members who ended up in concentration camps and were gassed will accept this ???


Will having somebody living to blame make them feel better?


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## DavidA

It is of course easy at this distance in history to do this. It would not have been easy when many of the orchestra members who played during the war under the Nazi regime were still alive and playing in the orchestra. We live in a society where we need to blame people and have scapegoats. The fact of history is that the vast majority of Austrians welcomed Hitler with open arms. The people of Austria were just as culpable as the Orchestra.


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## SiegendesLicht

Cannot those folks who are intent on perpetuating the guilt of the German-speaking nations into all eternity, at least leave the musicians alone?


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## ahammel

KenOC said:


> Will having somebody living to blame make them feel better?





DavidA said:


> We live in a society where we need to blame people and have scapegoats.


Who, exactly, is blaming whom for what? The article I read was about the VPO deciding that they'd rather not have people who were executed for crimes against humanity on their honour roll anymore.


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## Sid James

It is good that there is more acknowledgement of history by the VPO. This started to happen a while back though, in 2000 the Vienna Philharmonic did a performance of Beethoven's Symphony #9, "Choral." The choir consisted of Holocaust survivors as well as their descendants, the conductor was Simon Rattle. The venue was the former Mauthausen death camp, and the performance took place on the 55th anniversary of its liberation by the allies.

The thing with any event such as this is that do deal with the past, and more importantly move on with our lives (in the present), a number of things have to be done. One is validating the survivors, telling the story of what actually happened. In the case of the Holocaust of course many of the survivors are now no longer with us, but their relatives are. Also, it was an important event in European and world history.

WIth the passing of Nelson Mandela recently, I was looking at an interview with him, and part of what he had to say with the process of healing in post-Apartheid South AFrica was this:

_If we don't forgive them, then that feeling of bitterness and revenge will be there. We are saying let us forget the past, let's concern ourselves with the present and the future, but to [also] say the atrocities of the past will never be allowed to happen again._

So in that quote there is a lot about acknowledging the past (validation), moving on and building a future where there are safeguards in place against this kind of appalling breakdown in civil society doesn't happen again. Speaking to that, the recent rise of the far right in Europe is not a very comforting thing. I think of this often, and I hope that all these steps taken to heal the wounds of the past, can prevent anything similar from recurring now. Tha'ts what's most important, the future generations.

An anecdote I'd add is that recently, listening to the recordings of conductor Hermann Scherchen, I came across interesting information that contrasts with the awards those supporters of the Nazis got in post-war Vienna. Scherchen left Germany in 1933, and he also used his influence outside Germany to aid the resistance there against the regime. He went to live and work in Switzerland. There, after the war the press tried to influence the government to deny him a visa, they said he was a Communist. Nevertheless, he was able to conduct there and also set up his electronic studio there, new music being an interest of his. So, in the 1950's we had the politics of the Cold War and that meant shoving many things under the carpet, and playing the blame game and so on. The point of my contrast is this - its better not to do this kind of thing, just tell history as it is, as it happened. I am unsure whether Scherchen was a Communist, however the poor treatment he got is in stark contrast to the friendly back-slapping that went on in Vienna around the same time. Just offering food for thought here.


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## moody

KenOC said:


> Will having somebody living to blame make them feel better?


You are on dangerous ground with this subject,nobody was blaming anybody still living. The subject arose because of the recent announcements from the orchestra itself for heaven's sake. Plus the OP's wish to hear opinions,you can avoid it by not taking part you know. I mentioned blame in the case of the board for being so nauseatingly obvious.
When all the dreadful details emerged T was seven years old and remember the consternation that reigned. People were not so blasé then about horror vented upon fellow human beings,surely you most remember it all well ??


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## KenOC

moody said:


> ...The subject arose because of the recent announcements from the orchestra itself for heaven's sake. Plus the OP's wish to hear opinions,you can avoid it by not taking part you know.


Uh, I *am* the OP. Perhaps I misunderstood your post. It happens.


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## moody

KenOC said:


> Uh, I *am* the OP. Perhaps I misunderstood your post. It happens.


That'll teach me to look more carefully,but I don't change the general tenor of my opinion.


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## Vaneyes

superhorn said:


> It's not fair to blame the current VPO for the unfortunate things which happened in its past .
> None of its current members were even alive during WW2 , and some of them are not even from Austria .


The sooner we put WWII behind us, the better. Just say "No" to the History Channel.

There's enough crap happening right now, that deserves our full attention.


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## samurai

It all "deserves our full attention", lest we don't learn from our past, and have--or allow to happen--the same mistakes to be infinitely repeated.


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## Sid James

samurai said:


> It all "deserves our full attention", lest we don't learn from our past, and have--or allow to happen--the same mistakes to be infinitely repeated.


That's the point. Its about now really, how we are interpreting the past today. Of course it's history, we can't go back in a time machine and change things, right wrongs. How we see history is important.

The other thing I'd add is separating politics from music is difficult to impossible. Think of all the composers who had to go into exile to get away from the various dictatorships in Europe. Look at those who where involved in wars in some way (whether in combat, or as ambulance drivers). There's the choices composers made in terms of how they dealt with regimes, there's the issue of composers who where victims in various ways, and so on.

It of course is not limited to the 20th century. I didn't know this until today, but reading about Grieg, he refused to do a concert with a French orchestra as a protest against the Dreyfus case. This was a notorious case that highlighted the latent anti-Semitism in the French justice system in the late 19th century. Grieg got criticism for boycotting the concert (as, I think, pianist). But he made his choice, and its the same in the 20th century. On the other hand recently reading about D'Indy, he was just a big an anti-Semite as Wagner.

So its just about putting facts on the table. Looking at things with some deal of distance, making an objective as possible record of history. Its not good to obsess over it, to some extent bygones have to be bygones, we've got to move on. But Mandela in that quote I put in my previous post here said it best in this regard, I think.


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## PetrB

When some past Pope issued a formal apology for that church's past treatment of the Jews, a Rabbi from Brooklyn, asked in a TV news bit what he thought, gave the well-known shrug, the wry smile, and said,

*"You can not apologize for something you did not do."*

Now I get that whether it is the Vatican or the Vienna Philharmonic, that those are institutions which have been around for generations, and that titular heads can and will address the institution's past history.

This is lip service, along with half of similar we hear in the news, perhaps grudgingly said due to political correctness becoming a part of the global ethos, but like the good rabbi said,
*"You can not apologize for something you did not do."*

*...and along with that, none but the offended, maligned or worse can accept that apology, because they are not the offended party.*

Perhaps they would do better to commission a series of works from Jewish composers


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## ahammel

There's a difference between an apology and an acknowledgement that the organization did bad things in the past. The former is nonsensical in this context, and the latter is a bit lame but it's better than pretending it never happened.


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## Guest

KenOC said:


> Remember the hoo-rah a while ago about the Vienna Philharmonic and its questionable past with the Nazis and its own Jewish musicians? Here's some new news.
> 
> "VIENNA (AP) - The famed Vienna Philharmonic orchestra has quietly stripped six former senior Nazi officials of honors awarded them - a late act of contrition for its embrace of the Hitler era that included purging Jewish members from its ranks." Full story:
> 
> http://bigstory.ap.org/article/vienna-philharmonic-strips-ex-nazis-honors


The time to have done this properly would have been in the immediate aftermath. Now it looks more like a whitewashing of history. It has absolutely nothing to do with the philharmonic now. However, the fact that this was not done immediately, at the very least after the Nuremberg trials, speaks volumes of what the attitudes still were.

As I said, now it just feels like a whitewashing of a black stain on the history of the organization. How will this now be represented? Will the history show that the awards and honors were bestowed, but later rescinded, or will they pretend they were never given in the first place? I don't think that current members should be held to blame for the sins of others, neither do I believe that the apologies of the present should erase those past sins. Strip the honors, but don't erase that page of the history.


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## EdwardBast

PetrB said:


> *"You can not apologize for something you did not do."*
> 
> *...and along with that, none but the offended, maligned or worse can accept that apology, because they are not the offended party.*


What the Vienna Philharmonic did was leave genocidal criminals on the roll of honor for nearly seventy years. For that they can apologize. And the offended parties can include anyone aware of this appalling fact.


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## dgee

Yep Edward, the organisation can only do now what it can do now. And, yes, it's obviously not a complete atonement and they can't just wash their hands of the whole thing and expect everyone to be delighted but an acknowledgement now is better than nothing at all. As lovely as it would be to turn back time and make it all OK with the affected parties and punish the baddies... 

However, it appears they could improve the effort by making this acknowledgement more public and explicit for what it is, what it means and why they hadn't done so before


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## KenOC

There may be a missed possibility here. The possibility is that some of the Nazi officers and officials really did some major favors for the orchestra, favors that had nothing to do with ideology or Jewish musicians. It's easy to imagine that this might be welcome in a country newly absorbed by its neighbor. If that *were* the case, would it be right to withdraw the honors granted them?

Note that I have no idea of what the honors granted were, or why they were granted.


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## ahammel

KenOC said:


> There may be a missed possibility here. The possibility is that some of the Nazi officers and officials really did some major favors for the orchestra, favors that had nothing to do with ideology or Jewish musicians. It's easy to imagine that this might be welcome in a country newly absorbed by its neighbor. If that *were* the case, would it be right to withdraw the honors granted them?


Yes. The alternative is tacitly supporting Nazism so long as it promotes the arts.

"Sure, he made a spirited attempt to extinguish the Jewish population of Europe, but on the other hand, look how nice our new carpets are!"


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## KenOC

ahammel said:


> Yes. The alternative is tacitly supporting Nazism so long as it promotes the arts.
> 
> "Sure, he made a spirited attempt to extinguish the Jewish population of Europe, but on the other hand, look how nice our new carpets are!"


[comment deleted because of possibly offensive jollity]


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## Sid James

dgee said:


> ....
> 
> However, it appears they could improve the effort by making this acknowledgement more public and explicit for what it is, what it means and *why they hadn't done so before*


In terms of what you're saying (and also Dr Mike) that things to redress these issues should have happened before, the thing is that numerous things prevented that. One is the discomfiting fact that Hitler was welcomed in Vienna when he came in 1938. So any mention of Austria under Nazi rule after the war bought bad memories. Many people who where there that day on the Ringstrasse - photos show the police having to restrain people from pushing away barricades, other people got atop trees for a better view of their old boy who came home - but after the war there was this collective amnesia in the city. Nobody was there, it never happened. WE didn't collaborate or acquiesce to this, its those bad Germans who did everything. The old head in sand attitude.

I read in a book that there was no public memorial to the Holocaust in Vienna except a small plaque in its main train station, from where so many where sent to their deaths on cattle trains to die in the gas chambers. To add insult to injury, the plaque was inconspicuously put between a luggage office and a vending machine. This was back in the 1990's, undoubtedly things have changed, but it speaks to this amnesia and 'let's not go there' attitude I am talking about.

The other is the Cold War, where America and the allies did a fair share of punishing a handful of people at Nuremberg but letting many others off the hook (and apart from those executed for war crimes, most of the others given life sentences walked free after something like 10 years incarceration). After the war, American money rebuilt Vienna. A lot of it was destroyed by the Germans before they retreated as sour grapes and payback, just like Warsaw was (more badly), or the bridges of Budapest all destroyed by the retreating Germans (for no tactical advantage, they where surrounded on both sides of the Danube). A kind of scorched earth policy.

In Vienna, St Stephen's Cathedral was gutted by fire. Other things where destroyed by the allied bombings, as in other cities. So its American money that rebuilt institutions like the Singverein and Vienna State Opera. I've talked of this kind of 'facadism' reflecting deeper problems with Mitteleuropa culture before. Now that's whitewash. Go on as if it never happened. It also has parallels with Holocaust denial, although that's more direct and extreme.

But the issue is that America and the Allies had to make friends and allies of their former enemies, like West Germany and Austria. So it was better to just do Nuremberg and then kind of say that's it. Let's get on with other things. I am simplifying things but that was the mood of the times in the Cold War. There was a new threat, from the Communist East, Nazism was defeated.

Again, I think telling history is important, its more important than punishment or atonement. Just tell it as it is. The VPO's history is just a part of the bigger history here. No-one can say its completely irrelevant today either. Europe is in economic meltdown - certainly places like Spain and Greece are, and even other countries are struggling. This kind of time is when extreme politics tends to raise its head. That's why its important not to forget the lessons of the past.


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## EdwardBast

KenOC said:


> There may be a missed possibility here. The possibility is that some of the Nazi officers and officials really did some major favors for the orchestra, favors that had nothing to do with ideology or Jewish musicians. It's easy to imagine that this might be welcome in a country newly absorbed by its neighbor. If that *were* the case, would it be right to withdraw the honors granted them?
> 
> Note that I have no idea of what the honors granted were, or why they were granted.


Do you think they would have done those favors had the orchestra refused to fire its Jewish players? This is called selling ones soul. If you must, give the devil his due, but you don't have to praise him too.


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## KenOC

EdwardBast said:


> Do you think they would have done those favors had the orchestra refused to fire its Jewish players?


I have no reason to think one way or the other. Do you?


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## EdwardBast

KenOC said:


> I have no reason to think one way or the other. Do you?


Yes. You have perhaps heard of the Nazi's proclivity for gassing and incinerating Jews, right? This goal is not compatible with allowing them to maintain prestigious jobs with a major orchestra. Do the math. Like the Vienna Phil did.


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## KenOC

EdwardBast said:


> Yes. You have perhaps heard of the Nazi's proclivity for gassing and incinerating Jews, right? This goal is not compatible with allowing them to maintain prestigious jobs with a major orchestra. Do the math. Like the Vienna Phil did.


Nonsense. It's entirely imaginable that some music-lovers belonging to the Nazi party might want to help the orchestra out regardless of political or racial connections. Or were they all bloodthirsty, slavering tyrants? A whole nation of them? Their evil, for the most part, was of a far more banal type, as has been wisely said.

I'm not saying this was the case, but it's a possibility not foreclosed given the information I've seen.


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## EdwardBast

KenOC said:


> Nonsense. It's entirely imaginable that some music-lovers belonging to the Nazi party might want to help the orchestra out regardless of political or racial connections. Or were they all bloodthirsty, slavering tyrants? A whole nation of them? Their evil, for the most part, was of a far more banal type, as has been wisely said.
> 
> I'm not saying this was the case, but it's a possibility not foreclosed given the information I've seen.


Did you read the article? One of the honorees was tried and convicted for shipping Jews to concentration camps. This is called accessory to mass murder. We are not talking about a whole nation. We are talking about a small and specific group of individuals.


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## KenOC

Indeed. That's one. And the others? Though if a mass murderer saves the life of my child, I'll thank him. Wouldn't you? Here's one for you:

"From the invasion of China in 1937 to the end of World War II, the Japanese military regime murdered near 3,000,000 to over 10,000,000 people, most probably almost 6,000,000 Chinese, Indonesians, Koreans, Filipinos, and Indochinese, among others, including Western prisoners of war."

Forgive and forget seems the rule of the day for that one (though not in China!) I assume you retain the same degree of rage against the Japanese?

http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/SOD.CHAP3.HTM

It's Christmas, and forgiveness should be given some thought. My original question about the VPO and its "duty" to rescind the honors granted remains, and will remain pending more information.


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## EdwardBast

KenOC said:


> Indeed. That's one. And the others? Though if a mass murderer saves the life of my child, I'll thank him. Wouldn't you? Here's one for you:
> 
> "From the invasion of China in 1937 to the end of World War II, the Japanese military regime murdered near 3,000,000 to over 10,000,000 people, most probably almost 6,000,000 Chinese, Indonesians, Koreans, Filipinos, and Indochinese, among others, including Western prisoners of war."
> 
> Forgive and forget seems the rule of the day for that one (though not in China!) I assume you retain the same degree of rage against the Japanese?
> 
> http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/SOD.CHAP3.HTM
> 
> It's Christmas, and forgiveness should be given some thought. My original question about the VPO and its "duty" to rescind the honors granted remains, and will remain pending more information.


Where did you get rage? I challenge you to point out anything remotely resembling rage in my calmly and clearly expressed views on this issue. I was only pointing out, politely and rationally, that leaving an accessory to mass murder on the honor roll of the orchestra's supporters for seventy years after his conviction, might be indelicate enough to warrant an apology.

I fail to see how the atrocities perpetrated by other nations connects to this discussion. The subject was the recent doings of the Vienna Philharmonic, which, unlike the events you have mentioned, is relevant to this forum because they perform classical music.


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## KenOC

EdwardBast said:


> Where did you get rage? I challenge you to point out anything remotely resembling rage in my calmly and clearly expressed views on this issue.


Well, you seem ready to condemn several Nazi party members, 70 years after the fact, who provided services evidently valued by the VPO, on no firmer evidence than the guilt of one of them in an unrelated crime (heinous though it was). Perhaps "rage" is the wrong term, and I am certainly open to a better one.

This is tiresome. If the thread is moved to the politics forum, maybe I'll post further. Otherwise not.


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## EdwardBast

KenOC said:


> Well, you seem ready to condemn several Nazi party members, 70 years after the fact, who provided services evidently valued by the VPO, on no firmer evidence than the guilt of one of them in an unrelated crime (heinous though it was). Perhaps "rage" is the wrong term, and I am certainly open to a better one.
> 
> This is tiresome. If the thread is moved to the politics forum, maybe I'll post further. Otherwise not.


Stop asking me questions on the topic and I'll stop answering them. Simple.


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## Guest

KenOC said:


> Well, you seem ready to condemn several Nazi party members, 70 years after the fact, who provided services evidently valued by the VPO, on no firmer evidence than the guilt of one of them in an unrelated crime (heinous though it was). Perhaps "rage" is the wrong term, and I am certainly open to a better one.
> 
> This is tiresome. If the thread is moved to the politics forum, maybe I'll post further. Otherwise not.


Quite honestly, yes, I would condemn those Nazi party members regardless of what services they provided the VPO, and I don't think the GPO should have received anything from them, or bestowed any honors on them, regardless of how involved they were in the evil deeds of the Nazi party. From its very inception, the Nazis were associated with violence. Violence was not tangential to their cause, rather central. Those who joined did so knowing that, regardless of whether they personally participated in the violence. I don't know if they joined to further their own careers in the party, or because they believed the ideology, or were simply going along to get along, but some guilt lies with them for doing so, and no amount of good deeds, or some sort of artistic indulgence, atones for that. Whether those who led the VPO accepted their gifts, and awarded accolades, due to fear of getting on the wrong side of the wrong people, or if they were of a mind with them, I don't think we now can say. But it was wrong. The fact that they are now trying to rescind the awards in such a hushed manner implies to me, at least, that they are trying to whitewash that past. But it is what it is.


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## KenOC

Nazi party membership seems to be an ambivalent thing. Herbert von Karajan was of course a Nazi, but we seem to buy his recordings quite happily. Wernher von Braun, who was probably responsible more than any other for putting Americans on the moon, was also a Nazi -- but he has many honors from the US and others, and doubtless deserved them. Should they be rescinded?

Elected Honorary Fellow of the British Interplanetary Society in 1949
Commander's Cross of the Deutsches Bundesverdienstkreuz in 1959
Langley Gold Medal in 1967
NASA Distinguished Service Medal in 1969
Civitan International World Citizenship Award in 1970
National Medal of Science in 1975
Werner von Siemens Ring in 1975

Well, there you are...but we leap to condemn party members of less fame.


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## DavidA

KenOC said:


> Nazi party membership seems to be an ambivalent thing. Herbert von Karajan was of course a Nazi, but we seem to buy his recordings quite happily. Wernher von Braun, who was probably responsible more than any other for putting Americans on the moon, was also a Nazi -- but he has many honors from the US and others, and doubtless deserved them. Should they be rescinded?
> 
> Elected Honorary Fellow of the British Interplanetary Society in 1949
> Commander's Cross of the Deutsches Bundesverdienstkreuz in 1959
> Langley Gold Medal in 1967
> NASA Distinguished Service Medal in 1969
> Civitan International World Citizenship Award in 1970
> National Medal of Science in 1975
> Werner von Siemens Ring in 1975
> 
> Well, there you are...but we leap to condemn party members of less fame.


When we say these people were 'Nazis' we must ask the next question as to whether they were just members of the party or actual ideological 'Nazis' who believed in the regimes murderous tactics, particularly the Holocaust. It appears Karajan never made any political statement on the matter. Most people think he joined to was to advance his career. While we view this as distasteful it appears Karajan committed no war crime.
Interesting that people who condemn Karajan often applaud the violinist David Oistrakh. Oistrakh was a member of Stalin's communist party which was the second most murderous regime in history behind Mao. Hitler is third, btw. David Oistrakh remained very loyal to Russia, to the people and to whoever was in power at the time "I owe this regime, whatever its faults, my life. They gave me my musical upbringing". Now I do not think many of us would want to taint the great violinist with the crimes of Stalin. But the fact is that he played willingly for Stalin's regime in the same way as Karajan conducted for Hitler. Of course left wing writers and historians are often apparently blind to the crimes of Communist regimes while they lick over the crimes of right wing fascist regimes. But if we are going to be consistent then we must look on them surely in the same light. These musicians played for, supported and collaborated with murderous regimes. Many other Soviet parties could be added to Oistrakh's name. Are they as guilty as Karajan? Or were they just victims of the country in which they were born? Were they ideological Communists and Stalinists? All was a musicians who just happened to be forced to work under a repressive regime?
If someone committed no more crime than playing as a musician then should we judge him any more harshly than someone (for example) who worked in a munitions factory during the war?


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## KenOC

DavidA said:


> When we say these people were 'Nazis' we must ask the next question as to whether they were just members of the party or actual ideological 'Nazis' who believed in the regimes murderous tactics, particularly the Holocaust.


We may think what we like, but I have never heard that either Karajan or von Braun uttered a word of criticism about Nazi policies, except perhaps after the fact (if then). Note that both joined the party before the Holocaust began in earnest in 1942 and remained quite happily quiet while it was taking place. And von Braun, of course, was deeply involved in munitions, leading the development of the V-2 rocket used to attack London and other points in England.

But that's OK, they were "good Nazis" from what I understand. And, for that matter will the US, perhaps, be labeled a "murderous regime" sometime in the future? Something to think about.


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## DavidA

KenOC said:


> We may think what we like, but I have never heard that either Karajan or von Braun uttered a word of criticism about Nazi policies, except perhaps after the fact (if then). Note that both joined the party before the Holocaust began in earnest in 1942 and remained quite happily quiet while it was taking place. And von Braun, of course, was deeply involved in munitions, leading the development of the V-2 rocket used to attack London and other points in England.
> 
> But that's OK, they were "good Nazis" from what I understand. And, for that matter will the US, perhaps, be labeled a "murderous regime" sometime in the future? Something to think about.


It's interesting that you immediately proved my point by going for the Nazis. You haven't in any way address the question of Oistrakh being a member of Stalin's party. This is of course what the establishment has tended to do. The fact that Stalin was on our side during the Second World War does not make him or his regime any less murderous. Nor does it reduce the guilt of those who 'collaborated' with it. Both the liberal establishment has always made a distinction between Nazism and Leninism/Stalinism.


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## KenOC

DavidA said:


> It's interesting that you immediately proved my point by going for the Nazis. You haven't in any way address the question of Oistrakh being a member of Stalin's party. This is of course what the establishment has tended to do. The fact that Stalin was on our side during the Second World War does not make him or his regime any less murderous. Nor does it reduce the guilt of those who 'collaborated' with it. Both the liberal establishment has always made a distinction between Nazism and Leninism/Stalinism.


Perhaps I am not clear. I don't condemn Nazi party members in general, just pointing out our inconsistencies in that regard. I don't condemn those that "went along" with Stalinist rule, ditto, Shostakovich, Oistrakh, or otherwise. Would we act differently? And I don't condemn those who supported Chairman Mao for that matter.

And I suggest that we should probably pay more attention to the motes in our own eyes, which is likely more useful than condemning others.


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## DavidA

KenOC said:


> .
> 
> And I suggest that we should probably pay more attention to the motes in our own eyes, which is likely more useful than condemning others.


Oh yes! Interesting that recently a British soldier was committed to at least 10 years in prison for shooting an insurgent. However the scum politicians who ordered the lunatic illegal (and unwinnable) war that has killed thousands have got off scot free. The enquiry into the Iraq war has been quietly forgotten.


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## EdwardBast

KenOC said:


> Well, you seem ready to condemn several Nazi party members, 70 years after the fact, who provided services evidently valued by the VPO, on no firmer evidence than the guilt of one of them in an unrelated crime (heinous though it was). Perhaps "rage" is the wrong term, and I am certainly open to a better one.


I shouldn't have let this pass. Unrelated crime? One of those valued Nazi's was sentenced for shipping Jews to the camps. Where do you imagine the members of the Vienna Philharmonic dismissed for being Jewish, along with their families, ended up? From a historian's report (Oliver Rathkolb) published by AP, Bloomberg news, and other sources: "All the orchestra's Jewish musicians were dismissed in 1938. Five died in concentration camps; one died after being thrown out of his apartment, and another before being deported." Doesn't sound like an unrelated crime to me. The Vienna Philharmonic spared the Nazi's the embarrassment of having to kill members of a world renowned cultural institution by turning them into unemployed vagrants. This is complicity in a crime.

Oh, and the whole world condemned these Nazi party members in the late 1940s, not "70 years after the fact." Only the Vienna Philharmonic, it seems, failed to do so until 70 years later.


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## scratchgolf

Holiday Cease-Fire. Merry Christmas guys.


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## EdwardBast

scratchgolf said:


> Holiday Cease-Fire. Merry Christmas guys.


On the birthday of Yeshua of Nazareth, arguably the world's most famous Jew, this discussion is not entirely inappropriate. 

Merry Christmas!


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## altom

may I only add: Daniel Barenboim, KBE, (Hebrew: דניאל ברנבוים
directing for the fifth time the New Year concert in Wien.


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