# Which Beethoven symphony cycle would you buy?



## Kjetil Heggelund

I would like to buy a Beethoven symphony cycle box! Right now I'm confused 
Michael Gielen is faster than Günter Wand and Jos Van Immerseel is HIP and in-between, but what about that Stanislaw Skrowaczewski?


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## KenOC

Cheap alert! One of the best cycles out there is done by the Royal Philharmonic Orchestra conducted by René Liebowitz. Pre-HIP HIP, generally lively tempos with great articulation and virtuosic playing, especially the woodwinds. And you get a lot more stuff as well in this super-budget download. Good sound. $2.69!

It's *here *on Amazon.


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## mbhaub

KenOC said:


> Cheap alert! One of the best cycles out there is done by the Royal Philharmonic Orchestra conducted by René Liebowitz. Pre-HIP HIP, generally lively tempos with great articulation and virtuosic playing, especially the woodwinds. And you get a lot more stuff as well in this super-budget download. Good sound. $2.69!
> 
> It's *here *on Amazon.


That is a GREAT set and so unknown...I first had in on Reader's Digest LPs and still own them - as well as the later CD incarnations. Terrific performances, great conducting, wonderful playing and superb sound despite being over 50 now.

For a relatively, new, modern set I have enjoyed the Paavo Jarvi set a great deal. Superb sound and thrilling performances.


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## 89Koechel

Ken & mbhaub - Thanks for the recommendations of Leibowitz & Paavo Jarvi - they should be interesting! Well, don't forget that the Szell/Cleveland CD set is still available at Amazon, for about $13. Even with the PLETHORA of many recommendations, this might be a 1st choice.


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## KenOC

mbhaub said:


> For a relatively, new, modern set I have enjoyed the Paavo Jarvi set a great deal. Superb sound and thrilling performances.


I don't have the Paavo Jarvi cycle but I've heard it is very good. On the old Amazon forum, a hard-fought battle gave first place to the set by Gardiner and the ORR, edging Karajan's 1963 set. I personally consider Gardiner to be the top pick among all Beethoven cycles, the later newer releases I've heard notwithstanding. Currently $20+ new.


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## SixFootScowl

Kjetil Heggelund said:


> I would like to buy a Beethoven symphony cycle box! Right now I'm confused
> Michael Gielen is faster than Günter Wand and Jos Van Immerseel is HIP and in-between, but what about that Stanislaw Skrowaczewski?


I take it you do not currently own an entire cycle. You pose the same question that presumably has led many of us to multiple cycles.


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## Guest

Szell/Cleveland on Sony is excellent. Beyond what has already been said, I would throw the Vanska/Minnesota cycle on BIS into the mix for a modern one. Modern instruments, but HIP ideas incorporated.


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## Enthusiast

I'm with KenOC: if I didn't have a single set of the symphonies (or even if you have a few) I don't see why I should pay more than the price for the excellent Rene Liebowitz set. It really is very good. Even at ten or twenty times the price you could find it hard to find as good.


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## Kjetil Heggelund

Since everything is on spotify except Berlin Phil. with Rattle, that's the one I just ordered. It was really hard for me to pick one. I used no. 3 to compare, but I seem to like them all, just not Brüggen...Anyway getting a set was cheaper than I imagined.


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## Merl

Have a read through these threads, below. Lots of ideas for you.

Beethoven symphony cycle with the best sound and performance

If You Could Only Have One Beethoven Symphony Cycle

Personally Skrowaczewski is my go-to set these days. Modern sound, great tempi, no bad performances, blah blah blah......but there are others I love old and new. Do your homework, listen to clips on youtube or via streaming, etc. With over 170 full cycles out there its easy to get lost. Really depends on what you want too.....moderate tempi, metronomic, big-band, HIP, chamber-size orchestra, historic, digital, analogue, mono, etc.









Edit: I just read that you ordered Rattle/ BPO. You must be rich. Lol.


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## Guest

Kjetil Heggelund said:


> Since everything is on spotify except Berlin Phil. with Rattle, that's the one I just ordered. It was really hard for me to pick one. I used no. 3 to compare, but I seem to like them all, just not Brüggen...Anyway getting a set was cheaper than I imagined.


Haven't heard the Rattle cycle. I'm pretty lukewarm about him in general. I like some of his Mahler, but otherwise, nothing really excited me.


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## realdealblues

DrMike said:


> Haven't heard the Rattle cycle. I'm pretty lukewarm about him in general. I like some of his Mahler, but otherwise, nothing really excited me.


I have and you're not missing anything.

I'm baffled by the OP. I personally don't know why someone would buy the only cycle not available for you to preview, and especially one without any recommendations here and very few positive reviews. Years ago there was no way for me to hear anything other than what was on the radio or unless I purchased it but now you have all sorts of opportunities to try before you buy.

And what does it matter who is faster than who or who is HIP or who is whatever? There are so many different ways to sample recordings these days. Listen and pick one that resonates with you, simple as that. I have lots that resonate with me so I own lots of cycles.

There are lots of great ones out there and I listen to them all the time and pick whichever conductor or orchestra based on my mood of that day. Today I might listen to Karajan's 70's cycle, tomorrow it may be Klemperer, the day after it might be Chailly, the day after that Wand, etc. There are things I usually like from all of them. There is no "one cycle to rule them all" for most people, unless (A.) you own one and that's all you care to buy because you aren't interested in exploring other interpretations or are so dead said in your way that you think it's the only right one or (B.) you're a fanatic about 1 particular conductor or orchestra.

Explore and enjoy...


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## Kjetil Heggelund

I listened to many 3rd symphonies on spotify and decided that I already have them available to stream any time I like. That's why I chose Rattle/Berlin. I did hear 2'30" of it on youtube and I was raised on Rattle, so I'm very happy with my choice  I did read a positive review too and paid 35 EUR with shipping. Also I was only considering the 4 I mentioned before spotify decided for me.


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## Kiki

I have the Rattle-Berlin set. Believe me, it looks good on the shelf. It is also one of closest Rattle has got to building a beautiful Karajan-esque blend of sound with which one hear the orchestra instead of the instruments.... Oh didn't I mention Beethoven? That wasn't intended. It isn't bad at all, quite good in fact. I just see it more as a collector's item than a go-to set.


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## Guest

realdealblues said:


> I have and you're not missing anything.
> 
> I'm baffled by the OP. I personally don't know why someone would buy the only cycle not available for you to preview, and especially one without any recommendations here and very few positive reviews. Years ago there was no way for me to hear anything other than what was on the radio or unless I purchased it but now you have all sorts of opportunities to try before you buy.
> 
> And what does it matter who is faster than who or who is HIP or who is whatever? There are so many different ways to sample recordings these days. Listen and pick one that resonates with you, simple as that. I have lots that resonate with me so I own lots of cycles.
> 
> There are lots of great ones out there and I listen to them all the time and pick whichever conductor or orchestra based on my mood of that day. Today I might listen to Karajan's 70's cycle, tomorrow it may be Klemperer, the day after it might be Chailly, the day after that Wand, etc. There are things I usually like from all of them. There is no "one cycle to rule them all" for most people, unless (A.) you own one and that's all you care to buy because you aren't interested in exploring other interpretations or are so dead said in your way that you think it's the only right one or (B.) you're a fanatic about 1 particular conductor or orchestra.
> 
> Explore and enjoy...


Yeah, I mostly agree here. If all the good ones are available on streaming services, why bother buying one that might not be worth the cost? I've never heard anybody praise Rattle for his Beethoven.

There is such a wealth of excellent recordings of these symphonies, in whatever style you prefer. For complete cycles, I have Paavo Jarvi's, Osmo Vanska's, Szell's, and Immerseel's. But then I have a scattering of other recordings - Karajan's praised 9th, as well as great 9ths from Fricsay, Klemperer, Furtwangler, Gardiner. I have the great Kleiber recording of the 5th and 7th. Various other Klemperer recordings, a Hogwood 3rd, and a Toscanini 3rd. I doubt I'm done.


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## mbhaub

Another set I've been playing a lot lately is quite old - ancient in LP years. But can there be a better glimpse at how Beethoven was interpreted an played in the mid-20c? There's a big box of this with several Bruckner symphonies - also extremely well done.


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## Granate

*Leibowitz Cycle sources*



KenOC said:


> Cheap alert! One of the best cycles out there is done by the Royal Philharmonic Orchestra conducted by René Liebowitz. Pre-HIP HIP, generally lively tempos with great articulation and virtuosic playing, especially the woodwinds. And you get a lot more stuff as well in this super-budget download. Good sound. $2.69!
> 
> It's *here *on Amazon.


It's a pity that I cannot buy and download the mp3 files from Amazon US, but after serious sampling, I found that these files don't come from the best sources known. It's not like urania but it's not really close from the best available.

This thread raised my interest in this Leibowitz cycle, which I had never listened to as it was so difficult to get on CD eventually. SQ seems very analogue and a bit dated, while playing is really correct and attractive. I'm mostly attracted by René's conducting, way more thrilling than the few recordings I own.



There's a 2015 release from "The Golden Legacy of Music" which can also be streamed on YouTube completely and offers a remastering suspiciously close to the highest standards of the Naxos Historical library (which are still louder and clearer, but expensive and not on CD either). This budget release contains each symphony in one file and in Europe you can pay 6€ or more like 7.5 pounds from Amazon sites. I think it's way worthier.










And as I'm listening to No.4 and No.7, I made a quick restoration from a LP box set to digitalise and use as a cover.


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## 89Koechel

(Leibowitz cycle sources) - Thanks for these, Granate - much-appreciated! One can simply say that, for beginners, Rene L's Beeth. 5th resembles the dynamic performances of Szell and/or Reiner, two of the masters. … I've seen a videotape of Szell, rehearsing the 5th, and could say that I might, slightly prefer Szell's handling of the opening movement (esp. the transitions of tempo). Leibowitz seems almost a bit-RUSHED (in comparison), but that might be plus, for some … esp. if remembers Toscanini. In any case, the RPO performs admirably, and misses NOT a note.


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## DavidA

Karajan 1963 when there was the thrill of pioneering in the orchestra and the playing is wonderful. Perhaps have the 77 6 and 9 as a supplement and the 82 no 3


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## gellio

My favorites are Gardiner, Harnoncourt and Chailly. Off all the Beethoven Cycles I have these three are the ones I listen to really only anymore.


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## CnC Bartok

Nobody has mentioned my four favourite cycles as yet, although I'd strongly echo the recommendation of the likes of Gielen, Skrowaczewski, Wand and Van Immerseel.

However, my go-to sets are

Berlin PO/Andre Cluytens
London SO/Eugen Jochum
Czech PO/Paul Kletzki
Chambre Philharmonique/Emmanuel Krivine (my top HIP set)


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## DavidA

mbhaub said:


> Another set I've been playing a lot lately is quite old - ancient in LP years. But can there be a better glimpse at how Beethoven was interpreted an played in the mid-20c? There's a big box of this with several Bruckner symphonies - also extremely well done.
> View attachment 121695


I was looking at the Schuricht box the other day with the Bruckner. The problem is he is conducting an orchestra which did not do Beethoven well.


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## Manxfeeder

DavidA said:


> I was looking at the Schuricht box the other day with the Bruckner. The problem is he is conducting an orchestra which did not do Beethoven well.


Maybe so, but being French, they play Beethoven less like the Germans/Austrians would, so it's a little different sound. And they give it all they've got. Personally, I think it's fun to hear. But we all have different ears. :tiphat:


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## Itullian

Klemperer
Walter
Cluytens
Konwitchny
Bernstein


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## KenOC

A fairly recent set (2006) that I can recommend highly is that of Bernard Haitink conducting the London Symphony Orchestra live on the LSO Live label. Haitink came a bit late to more "modern" performance practice and he certainly makes it work here. Tempi are brisk, playing is nimble, the sonics are excellent, and the performances substantial and absorbing. I never much cared for his earlier efforts, but this cycle is outstanding.

CDs seem totally OOP, but it's just $18 as a download.


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## Oldhoosierdude

I have to second or third the choice of Leibowitz as a download. His take on the 9 is a marked difference from many others. He was different when different wasn't cool (I think there is a country song about that). Also cheap and surprisingly good is this set available on Amazon. Recording quality is quite good and the playing strong as it is the LSO. Under Wyn Morris it is a solid set. As I understand it, maestro Morris was quite the challenge to play under.







https://www.amazon.com/Beethoven-Symphonies-Symphony-Orchestra-Classical/dp/B01MYA5OLK/ref=sr_1_15?keywords=beethoven+9+symphonies&qid=1570415846&s=dmusic&sr=1-15

If you are looking for CD's, there are quite a number of recommendations to be had. You mentioned the Szell recordings which are superb. I have Szell and the 1999 Barenboim CD's among others. The Barenboim had superior sound quality and a few of the symphonies are my favorite recordings of those.


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## wkasimer

I have a couple dozen cycles and don't plan to cull any of them, but if I had to choose just two (and I may have to do just that when I have to downsize), I would pick Krivine and Barenboim/SkB.


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## Duncan

Definitely this one -









Link to complete albums -

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLib_f3fLQ3NBbxwZuq_lbrz0izT_pQsTT


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## Reichstag aus LICHT

Another vote for the Cluytens/Berlin Philharmonic cycle from me; it was the one I first collected on the (now discontinued?) budget label, Classics For Pleasure, but there.was nothing budget about these fine performances. My preference nowadays is for the HIP (historically informed) approach, but I still enjoy "full fat" Beethoven from time to time, and Cluytens takes some beating.

Of the HIP "original instrument" sets my favourite is probably Hogwood, as he brings out details I rarely hear in other recordings. For a compromise, i.e. HIP on modern instruments, I really enjoy Norrington's Stuttgart cycle on Hänssler.


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## Enthusiast

Mollie John said:


> Definitely this one -
> 
> View attachment 124924


I think I have posted in this thread before. I do find myself not being a great fan of many of the sets recommended since the thread returned. I found Barenboim boring and Krivine also offered me little that impressed me. And this Chailly set left me baffled. I love what he does with the finales but much of what comes before struck me as fast but dull. I say these criticisms knowing and respecting that many people like one or other of these a lot but also wondering how they could! Perhaps even more than most composers, there does seem to be a big measure of personal taste in choosing Beethoven sets.

One set that I have been listening to recently and really liking a lot is this one:









There are many other sets I like greatly including Harnoncourt, Cluytens, Vanska, Klemperer and a good few more but Fischer is not like any of them. I have heard several Furtwangler performances that I also like a lot (but not the EMI set) and also greatly enjoy Toscanini's Beethoven.


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## jim prideaux

I have mentioned one particular cycle on a number of different threads and I still personally find it so rewarding....Peter Maag with a relatively obscure orchestra from Italy.......

hang on-apologies as I think I might have already mentioned this earlier on this thread!


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## Guest

The ones I seem to go to most often are Karajan '63, Harnoncourt COE (and a one-off with the CMW) and Immerseel.


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## Brahmsianhorn

I would never buy an entire cycle, but if forced to choose the only three I would consider would be, in order:


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## flamencosketches

Brahmsianhorn said:


> I would never buy an entire cycle, but if forced to choose the only three I would consider would be, in order:


I'm considering going for the latter of these. I have been listening to and enjoying some of Bernstein's earlier NYPO Beethoven. I like what I've heard of the DG set, but tempi are a little slower it seems. How much would you say his approach had changed in the interim, if at all? I might also consider the earlier cycle on Sony, but it's in one of those cheapo boxes with no notes...


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## starthrower

I bought the Bohm box last year. And I like Bernstein's Sony set.


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## Oldhoosierdude

Enthusiast said:


> I think I have posted in this thread before. I do find myself not being a great fan of many of the sets recommended since the thread returned. I found Barenboim boring and Krivine also offered me little that impressed me. And this Chailly set left me baffled. I love what he does with the finales but much of what comes before struck me as fast but dull. I say these criticisms knowing and respecting that many people like one or other of these a lot but also wondering how they could! Perhaps even more than most composers, there does seem to be a big measure of personal taste in choosing Beethoven sets.
> 
> One set that I have been listening to recently and really liking a lot is this one:
> 
> View attachment 124937
> 
> 
> There are many other sets I like greatly including Harnoncourt, Cluytens, Vanska, Klemperer and a good few more but Fischer is not like any of them. I have heard several Furtwangler performances that I also like a lot (but not the EMI set) and also greatly enjoy Toscanini's Beethoven.


One I haven't heard of.


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## Brahmsianhorn

flamencosketches said:


> I'm considering going for the latter of these. I have been listening to and enjoying some of Bernstein's earlier NYPO Beethoven. I like what I've heard of the DG set, but tempi are a little slower it seems. How much would you say his approach had changed in the interim, if at all? I might also consider the earlier cycle on Sony, but it's in one of those cheapo boxes with no notes...


I like the greater weight and power of the DG set. It sounds more like Beethoven. The Sony sounds more conventional to me and less interesting, though I'd say the Eroica was more successful in that set.


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## Enthusiast

Oldhoosierdude said:


> One I haven't heard of.


Try to hear it. I'm not saying you will like it but it seems to me to achieve what the various HIP cycles failed to achieve. It is full of life and interpretive ideas and certainly convinces (me) as Beethoven.


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## NLAdriaan

Interesting new kid on the block, Nelsons and the VPO just released this complete Beethoven set out of nowhere.


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## Oldhoosierdude

Enthusiast said:


> Try to hear it. I'm not saying you will like it but it seems to me to achieve what the various HIP cycles failed to achieve. It is full of life and interpretive ideas and certainly convinces (me) as Beethoven.


I have marked it on the YouTube.


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## CnC Bartok

jim prideaux said:


> I have mentioned one particular cycle on a number of different threads and I still personally find it so rewarding....Peter Maag with a relatively obscure orchestra from Italy.......
> 
> hang on-apologies as I think I might have already mentioned this earlier on this thread!


I missed your earlier mention of this set with the Padua Philharmonic, or whoever!

I once got No.9 in this set as a freebie, I think it might even gave been from Gramophone, many years ago. It was stupendous. But I lost it many years ago too; perhaps the unscrupulous git who screwed us over when we sold my parents' house will be lucky enough to find it in the attic one day?

Anyways, five well-used CDs, a full set, ordered and on their way. Thanks for the reminder!


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## Merl

I'm saying nothing. :lol:


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## CnC Bartok

^^^ I'll reserve the right to giggle or dismiss when I have heard what he does. :tiphat:


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## jim prideaux

CnC Bartok said:


> I missed your earlier mention of this set with the Padua Philharmonic, or whoever!
> 
> I once got No.9 in this set as a freebie, I think it might even gave been from Gramophone, many years ago. It was stupendous. But I lost it many years ago too; perhaps the unscrupulous git who screwed us over when we sold my parents' house will be lucky enough to find it in the attic one day?
> 
> Anyways, five well-used CDs, a full set, ordered and on their way. Thanks for the reminder!


at the risk of being contentious this cycle contains the most remarkably impressive 4th I have had the good fortune to hear.....hope you find your recent purchase as rewarding when it arrives.


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## Oldhoosierdude

jim prideaux said:


> at the risk of being contentious this cycle contains the most remarkably impressive 4th I have had the good fortune to hear.....hope you find your recent purchase as rewarding when it arrives.


I have some Mendelssohn with Maag that I greatly enjoy. I did not realize that he recorded the Beethoven cycle. I can find a few of these on Youtube. A few CD offerings are available on Ebay and such in the US but at prices I would not pay.. I'll find that 4th and give it a go.


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## Oldhoosierdude

KenOC said:


> Cheap alert! One of the best cycles out there is done by the Royal Philharmonic Orchestra conducted by René Liebowitz. Pre-HIP HIP, generally lively tempos with great articulation and virtuosic playing, especially the woodwinds. And you get a lot more stuff as well in this super-budget download. Good sound. $2.69!
> 
> It's *here *on Amazon.


For the longest time I had this cycle and did not care much for it as I found the sound less than good. Then I had occasion to download it again from Amazon and the sound issue was not there any longer. So, who knows what that was all about. Now I quite love this set. This is one of those things that if it was not readily available and cost $100, some folks would call it the best ever.


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## DavidA

Mollie John said:


> Definitely this one -
> 
> View attachment 124924
> 
> 
> Link to complete albums -
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLib_f3fLQ3NBbxwZuq_lbrz0izT_pQsTT


I bought this but disappointed. The speeds are just far too fast despite the playing.


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## CnC Bartok

^^^ Disappointingly, the same feeling here. I was left with huge admiration for the Gewandhaus, but less for Ludwig, and even less for maestro Chailly. Too fast and too aggressive, but damned exhilarating!


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## DavidA

CnC Bartok said:


> ^^^ Disappointingly, the same feeling here. I was left with huge admiration for the Gewandhaus, but less for Ludwig, and even less for maestro Chailly. Too fast and too aggressive, but damned exhilarating!


The problem is that an orchestra in Beethoven's day would never have had the technical skills to play the music at such speeds. Let's face it, it's only just been done! This adherence to Beethoven's highly questionable metronome marks appears to throw artistic considerations out the window.


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## CnC Bartok

Maybe suggests Beethoven's metronome was poorly calibrated?


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## Merl

CnC Bartok said:


> Maybe suggests Beethoven's metronome was poorly calibrated?


Or maybe suggests we've got used to slow Wagner-esque Beethoven. His metronome was not faulty. Endless studies, examination of Beethoven and Czerny's letters and anecdotal evidence all reject the faulty metronome theory. Why anyone still believes that I don't know. The only 'research' that supports that theory is the massively flawed Smithsonian paper and that was based on inaccurate mathematical theory. Read Young's paper on the matter, or Zander on the metronome speeds. Nowt wrong with Chailly's speeds. Scherchen was doing them faster in the 50s. Give me Chailly over Klempy and Celi's trudgefests any day.


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## Granate

I cannot make Beethoven challenges like last year anymore but I've been listening this cycle up to No.5 and it's a great performance style with expansive acoustics, reaching as far as many modern orchestra but with the refinement and bite of the HIP ones. Best since Haitink LSO I can bet.










Right now starting Nelsons WPO and I don't know how will it compare to Karl Böhm with the same orchestra and label, plus a very similar Vienna sound and performance in No.1.


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## Enthusiast

Merl said:


> Or maybe suggests we've got used to slow Wagner-esque Beethoven. His metronome was not faulty. Endless studies, examination of Beethoven and Czerny's letters and anecdotal evidence all reject the faulty metronome theory. Why anyone still believes that I don't know. The only 'research' that supports that theory is the massively flawed Smithsonian paper and that was based on inaccurate mathematical theory. Read Young's paper on the matter, or Zander on the metronome speeds. Nowt wrong with Chailly's speeds. Scherchen was doing them faster in the 50s. Give me Chailly over Klempy and Celi's trudgefests any day.


I don't know but speed per se never seems to be a crucial issue for me in music. I have heard very slow performances of music I love that are yet full of life (Celi often achieves this, for me) and fast performances that are still somehow dull (I'm tempted to put Chailly's Beethoven in that category). The only time speed alone matters to me is if I listen to something slow very soon after hearing a faster performance of the same work. But I can think of lots of recordings which put me to sleep and it seems like speed is the problem. The famous Beethoven piano concerto recordings done by the young Barenboim with the aged and infirm Klemperer are a case in point. There is real chemistry between the two but it still doesn't rescue the music for me. I do know that many value these accounts highly and have long wished I could listen to them with pleasure. But I can't!


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## DavidA

Merl said:


> Or maybe suggests we've got used to slow Wagner-esque Beethoven. His metronome was not faulty. Endless studies, examination of Beethoven and Czerny's letters and anecdotal evidence all reject the faulty metronome theory. Why anyone still believes that I don't know. The only 'research' that supports that theory is the massively flawed Smithsonian paper and that was based on inaccurate mathematical theory. Read Young's paper on the matter, or Zander on the metronome speeds. Nowt wrong with Chailly's speeds. Scherchen was doing them faster in the 50s. Give me Chailly over Klempy and Celi's trudgefests any day.


Whether or not Beethoven's metronome was faulty or not is beside the point. The orchestras in Beethoven's day certainly wouldn't have had the technical skill (many were amateurs, don't forget) to play at the speed of modern orchestras. We are not suggesting trudgefests neither are we suggesting, however, whirlwind tours. To me Beethoven's markings are more important than slavish addiction to the impossible metronome.


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## Granate

*Nelsons Vienna Beethoven*



Granate said:


> Right now starting Nelsons WPO and I don't know how will it compare to Karl Böhm with the same orchestra and label, plus a very similar Vienna sound and performance in No.1.


Hey guys! Give it a try to this one. Maybe it can be expensive but Youtube has the streaming playlist of the cycle. The old Vienna sound is much smoother here but it's perfectly recognizable in my opinion. Tempì is moderate and Nelsons' craft seems to have more to do in nostalgia for the good old days instead of sharpening and speeding like many modern orchestras and conductors do. From No.3 to No.5 it becomes better and better. Full list *here,* or search for Wiener Philharmoniker topic on YT. But pick Eroica's 3rd movement from here since the playlist skips it.










Ok, it's not erasing my memories of the dynamic 70s Böhm cycle, but isn't a little hope what we need these days?


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## wkasimer

Granate said:


> Hey guys! Give it a try to this one. Maybe it can be expensive but Youtube has the streaming playlist of the cycle.


It's also on Spotify.


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## Granate

wkasimer said:


> It's also on Spotify.


Yeah, but I'm aware of the awful reputation Spotify sound has in this forum. Instead, as so many members like to stream from YouTube from this site, I place the links. Thank you.


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## wkasimer

Granate said:


> Yeah, but I'm aware of the awful reputation Spotify sound has in this forum. Instead, as so many members like to stream from YouTube from this site, I place the links. Thank you.


I have a premium Spotify subscription, and it sounds fine - vastly superior to YouTube.


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## jim prideaux

Having mentioned with great enthusiasm the Maag cycle might I also add Skrowaczeski.


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## CnC Bartok

Four of the five Maag CDs have arrived, only 1&3 to come. I'll give No.4 (one of my favourite Beethoven Symphonies) a listen tomorrow. Am expecting good things, and will hold you personally responsible if I have any tinges of disappointment! 

Big fan of Skrowaczewski here too, not only his Beethoven, but also his Brahms and Bruckner cycles...


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## Merl

CnC Bartok said:


> F
> 
> Big fan of Skrowaczewski here too, not only his Beethoven, but also his Brahms and Bruckner cycles...


Ditto............................


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## Reichstag aus LICHT

Granate said:


> Hey guys! Give it a try to this one. Maybe it can be expensive but Youtube has the streaming playlist of the cycle. The old Vienna sound is much smoother here but it's perfectly recognizable in my opinion. Tempì is moderate and Nelsons' craft seems to have more to do in nostalgia for the good old days instead of sharpening and speeding like many modern orchestras and conductors do.


I've just bought the Nelsons cycle as a download, and I'm enjoying it so far.


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## AlexD

Sorry, but what is HIP?


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## gellio

alexd said:


> sorry, but what is hip?


historical
informed
performance


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## gellio

Merl said:


> Or maybe suggests we've got used to slow Wagner-esque Beethoven. His metronome was not faulty. Endless studies, examination of Beethoven and Czerny's letters and anecdotal evidence all reject the faulty metronome theory. Why anyone still believes that I don't know. The only 'research' that supports that theory is the massively flawed Smithsonian paper and that was based on inaccurate mathematical theory. Read Young's paper on the matter, or Zander on the metronome speeds. Nowt wrong with Chailly's speeds. Scherchen was doing them faster in the 50s. Give me Chailly over Klempy and Celi's trudgefests any day.


I'm with you here. I think the whole HIP movement for me has revolutionized classical music back to where it seems it belongs. When I first got into classical music three titans I sought out were Karajan, Klemperer and Böhm. I can't even listen to the later two anymore. I have so many Böhm Mozart, Beethoven and Schubert recordings that I don't bother with anymore. Böhm and Klemperer both completely missed the mark when it came to these composers. Not just them - there really was this romantification of the Classical Period. Klemperer's *Missa Solemnis* is still triumphant to me but that's the only work of his direction I listen to anymore. Böhm is right up there with Boringboim as my least favorite conductors. Aside from Karajan, I'll take Jeggy, Chailly and Harnoncourt over any other conductor. Compare Harnoncourt's Concertgebouw Schubert symphony cycle with Böhm's and you'll see exactly what I'm talking about.


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## gellio

My three favorites are Harnoncourt (although the 1st mov’t of the 6th is too slow for me), Chailly and Gardiner. Of all the cycles I have (including Karajan) these are the only three I listen to anymore. I’m excited to get the Beethoven 2020 box set for the new VPO cycle.


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## gellio

DavidA said:


> Whether or not Beethoven's metronome was faulty or not is beside the point. The orchestras in Beethoven's day certainly wouldn't have had the technical skill (many were amateurs, don't forget) to play at the speed of modern orchestras. We are not suggesting trudgefests neither are we suggesting, however, whirlwind tours. To me Beethoven's markings are more important than slavish addiction to the impossible metronome.


Well, we don't know for sure that an orchestra of Beethoven's day wouldn't have been able to play at that speed. Didn't Beethoven at least conduct the premieres of 1-6? For me, it's not just about the speed, it's about the drama and dynamics. Beethoven's music isn't always supposed to be glossy and beautiful, it's supposed to be revolutionary, dramatic and exciting, which I'm sure you know.

Don't get me wrong, I love different interpretations and I'm grateful we have them, but when it comes to Beethoven's music, I'm going to support what Beethoven wanted rather than what some conductor wanted.


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## Oldhoosierdude

AlexD said:


> Sorry, but what is HIP?


Something people like to argue over.


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## Merl

gellio said:


> ..... I'm excited to get the Beethoven 2020 box set for the new VPO cycle.


Be careful what you wish for, gellio. It's far from HIP and moderately paced. Review to come next week along with Jordan's full Vienna set. I've spent the last week listening to both.


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## AlexD

Thank you. I was thinking Beethoven had been hanging out with hepcats, and written a Jazz Odysses that was totally hip, man.


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## Granate

Merl said:


> Be careful what you wish for, gellio. It's far from HIP and moderately paced. Review to come next week along with Jordan's full Vienna set. I've spent the last week listening to both.


Should I spoil people the horrendous singing of the Choral Symphony or you don't agree? 

Otherwise brilliant.










I spent yesterday morning and afternoon testing Beethoven recordings to replace both the No.4 and No.9 of my Konwitschny cycle (No.5 already is). I tried the Spotify versions of the Karajan and Fricsay famous 60s recordings (around the time of the Eterna cycle). Karajan's first bars were thrilling but a too different approach compared to my cycle. It's great though. Fricsay was the one I streamed complete before Konwitschny in the duel of No.9s. Fricsay was solid, but I still find myself perplexed with the slowness and strength of the Gewandhaus orchestra. CD quality can be different to Spotify, but I thought that Fricsay wasn't such a good substitute to Kon'. Fricsay is solid while Konwitschny is "dynamicly slow" (Andante clocks at 18' Fricsay and 16' in Kon).

Szell and Cleveland are really different in organisation to Gewandhaus, but the spirit of their No.4s are very similar, although I really think Szell excells here while Kon scores the weakest symphony of his set. However, I found the SQ of the cheap sony box so muddy that I have now declined buying any Beethoven.

I would rather invest 28€ in the Immerseel cycle and have two very different approaches. However, there is a lot else on the wishlist. I know that there are many other styles than the "stargazing" performances of Konwitschny in Leipzig, and that the SQ is rather old, but I find myself unable to escape from its claws whenever I listen to it. It's such a warm and gripping orchestral sound, that I forget the charisma of Bernstein or the majesty of Wand.

Speaking of the devil. Do you know the Wand Cycle reissue has been a huge bestseller and it's already OOP after little more than a year?


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## Merl

Most people don't realise how much Beethoven performances have slowed over the years. Weingartner based many of his tempi on anecdotal instruction given to him by Liszt, who admitted that Beethoven played quickly and liked "an urgent tempo", according to Czerny. Bear in mind that Liszt was Czerny's pupil and Czerny knew him better than anyone. Also consider how much Beethoven performances had slowed after those schooled under Wagner's influence in the latter part of the 19th Century. After a performance of the 9th symphony by Felix Mottl, in London in 1897, most British critics were appalled at how slow and distorted Mottl's Beethoven was. The Musical Times went further to say "such a slow, lumbering adagio we have never heard. The heavenly melodies appeared dragged out of all proportion." The type of Beethoven that Mottl, his pupils (eg Furtwangler) and other Wagnerites produced is certainly not the type of performance heard in Beethoven's time (British critics initially baulked at such performances, terming such conductors" rubato faddists") . However, the 'new' tradition of conductors in Beethoven at the end of century in Central Europe was of a slower, differently phrased and distended performance. This 'new' approach to Beethoven became the new norm as it gained traction across Europe. Some leading British critics started to enjoy this approach, including influential ones. Bernard Shaw, for example, enjoyed this "freedom of tempo" approach but did concede that this involved "extravagant point-making and tempo distentions".
Interesting then, that in a review of a Weingartner performance given in London one aged British critic remarked how "sane and direct" Weingartner's performance was and how "rhythmically appropriate" the account was yet a young Austrian critic commenting on the same performance opined that Weingartner's approach was "cool and hurried". Now where have you heard that before?


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## Merl

DavidA said:


> Whether or not Beethoven's metronome was faulty or not is beside the point. The orchestras in Beethoven's day certainly wouldn't have had the technical skill (many were amateurs, don't forget) to play at the speed of modern orchestras. We are not suggesting trudgefests neither are we suggesting, however, whirlwind tours. To me Beethoven's markings are more important than slavish addiction to the impossible metronome.


By the way this is totally untrue and not supported by any recent or older studies and literature on the subject. As Martin Saving stated on performance technique at the time of Beethoven,
_"The general technical level of playing during the 19th century changed dramatically because of the institutionalisation of music education, but there is no reason to believe that the prominent performers of the previous era were less than excellent, although there may have been fewer of them. Might it have been that the elusive concept of extreme talent was more important when methodical education and ample practice and rehearsal time couldn't compensate, to a certain extent, for the lack of it?"_
Furthermore, take, for example, the premiere of Beethoven's 7th symphony where the orchestra was led by Beethoven's friend Ignaz Schuppanzigh and included some of the" _*finest musicians of the day: violinist Louis Spohr, composers Johann Nepomuk Hummel, Giacomo Meyerbeer and Antonio Salieri, bassoonist Anton Romberg, and the Italian double bass virtuoso Domenico Dragonetti, whom Beethoven described as playing "with great fire and expressive power".The Italian guitar virtuoso Mauro Giuliani played cello at the premiere. *_"
These were hardly enthusiastic amateurs but musicians at the very top of their game and possibly more skilled than many of today's orchestral musicians. The idea that these virtuosos couldn't keep up with Beethoven's metronome marks is frankly preposterous. Musicians travelled from all over Europe to play Beethoven's music and were hand-picked to play in Beethoven's orchestra (Saving, Young, Swift) . The biggest drawback was the lack of rehearsal which frustrated Beethoven a great deal (according to Czerny). These orchestras played with minimum vibrato (it was widely frowned upon especially by highly renowned and virtuoso players of the time) and at an even tempo, with a strong pulse and bass-line. Authors and specialists on 18th and 19th century orchestras suggest that tempos were strictly observed to and that orchestral players' "adherence to a strict tempo would have sounded rather contrasting to modern practice" (Saving). Ferdinand Ries (Beethoven's friend, pupil and secretary) noted that Beethoven generally kept very strictly accurate time, only very rarely quickening the tempo and valued highly the playing of those who played with almost metronomic precision (he greatly admired Hummel's playing in this regard, even though they allegedly argued like cat and dog).


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## DavidA

gellio said:


> Well, we don't know for sure that an orchestra of Beethoven's day wouldn't have been able to play at that speed. Didn't Beethoven at least conduct the premieres of 1-6? For me, it's not just about the speed, it's about the drama and dynamics. Beethoven's music isn't always supposed to be glossy and beautiful, it's supposed to be revolutionary, dramatic and exciting, which I'm sure you know.
> 
> Don't get me wrong, I love different interpretations and I'm grateful we have them, but when it comes to Beethoven's music, I'm going to support what Beethoven wanted rather than what some conductor wanted.


The problem is that it is doubtful if the metronome tells us what he wanted. For example, the marking of the Hammerklavier first movement is far too fast. Everyone agrees. They are just unreliable


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## jegreenwood

. . .

I spent yesterday morning and afternoon testing Beethoven recordings to replace both the No.4 and No.9 of my Konwitschny cycle (No.5 already is). I tried the Spotify versions of the Karajan and Fricsay famous 60s recordings (around the time of the Eterna cycle). Karajan's first bars were thrilling but a too different approach compared to my cycle. It's great though. Fricsay was the one I streamed complete before Konwitschny in the duel of No.9s. Fricsay was solid, but I still find myself perplexed with the slowness and strength of the Gewandhaus orchestra. CD quality can be different to Spotify, but I thought that Fricsay wasn't such a good substitute to Kon'. Fricsay is solid while Konwitschny is "dynamicly slow" (Andante clocks at 18' Fricsay and 16' in Kon).

Szell and Cleveland are really different in organisation to Gewandhaus, but the spirit of their No.4s are very similar, although I really think Szell excells here while Kon scores the weakest symphony of his set. However, *I found the SQ of the cheap sony box so muddy that I have now declined buying any Beethoven.
*
I would rather invest 28€ in the Immerseel cycle and have two very different approaches. However, there is a lot else on the wishlist. I know that there are many other styles than the "stargazing" performances of Konwitschny in Leipzig, and that the SQ is rather old, but I find myself unable to escape from its claws whenever I listen to it. It's such a warm and gripping orchestral sound, that I forget the charisma of Bernstein or the majesty of Wand.

Speaking of the devil. Do you know the Wand Cycle reissue has been a huge bestseller and it's already OOP after little more than a year?

. . .

[/QUOTE]

The mastering on that box set (notwithstanding Sony's claim to the contrary) is still the 1990s mastering. About 3 years ago, Sony Japan did a new mastering for its hybrid SACD release. The Szell megabox appears to have the newer mastering. Not sure if there's any way to get the new mastering cheaply.


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## CnC Bartok

I've listened to well over half of the Maag symphonies now, and have thoroughly enjoyed what I have been hearing. They are very loving performances, with a nice lilt to them, nothing controversial of point-making, just good quality music making.

The orchestra are no amateurs, they sound suitably well drilled without being over-rehearsed (not that I'd expect that), not huge and Berliny on the strings, really nice woodwind especially.

Where to rank it? Well, the No.4 is a very enjoyable performance, but my favourites (Jochum and Kletzki, and Bruno Walter) can sleep in peace. I think they have that extra special something, in what is an extra special symphony, even among Beethoven's....


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## wkasimer

jegreenwood said:


> *I found the SQ of the cheap sony box so muddy that I have now declined buying any Beethoven.
> 
> The mastering on that box set (notwithstanding Sony's claim to the contrary) is still the 1990s mastering. About 3 years ago, Sony Japan did a new mastering for its hybrid SACD release. The Szell megabox appears to have the newer mastering. Not sure if there's any way to get the new mastering cheaply.*


*

Sony screwed up a lot of those cheap boxes. The Bruno Walter Mahler set is abominable.

For Szell, you might find a copy of the Original Jackets Beethoven, which sounded better than the cheap box or the Essential Classics that preceded it.*


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## flamencosketches

wkasimer said:


> Sony screwed up a lot of those cheap boxes. The Bruno Walter Mahler set is abominable.
> 
> For Szell, you might find a copy of the Original Jackets Beethoven, which sounded better than the cheap box or the Essential Classics that preceded it.


Why, what's wrong with the Walter Mahler box? I was considering getting it. I like all the sony boxes I have.


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## starthrower

flamencosketches said:


> Why, what's wrong with the Walter Mahler box? I was considering getting it. I like all the sony boxes I have.


I've read that Sony did a poor job on this edition. There's a lengthy review at Amazon with the details. The reviewer recommends the older Columbia Masterworks edition of nos. 1-2. There are copies for 2 and change.
https://www.amazon.com/Mahler-Symph...symphonies+1-2&qid=1571109926&s=music&sr=1-10


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## KenOC

Getting back to Beethoven...the Bruno Walter/Columbia cycle was available in really good Sony remasters, ca 1995, as a sub-$10 download from Amazon. It seems to have disappeared. Worth keeping your eyes open.


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## jim prideaux

CnC Bartok said:


> I've listened to well over half of the Maag symphonies now, and have thoroughly enjoyed what I have been hearing. They are very loving performances, with a nice lilt to them, nothing controversial of point-making, just good quality music making.
> 
> The orchestra are no amateurs, they sound suitably well drilled without being over-rehearsed (not that I'd expect that), not huge and Berliny on the strings, really nice woodwind especially.
> 
> Where to rank it? Well, the No.4 is a very enjoyable performance, but my favourites (Jochum and Kletzki, and Bruno Walter) can sleep in peace. I think they have that extra special something, in what is an extra special symphony, even among Beethoven's....


You have just reminded me that I lost my Kletzki cycle when my lap top 'blew up'...…..

'extra special symphony'.....the 4th, can only agree with your sentiment here 'CnC' but I do put Maag at the top although I suspect I will have to return to Kletzki and investigate Jochum (which recording would you recommend?)


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## CnC Bartok

No.4 is one of my more favoured Beethoven symphonies, it probably follows No.7 in my own personal ranking. That said, despite its relative "lightness", I much prefer it done in the old way, I don't really think HIP works quite as well with it as it does with certain others; I feel the thinner sound and greater emphasis on rhythm in HIP style perofrmances de-romaticises it to some extent. Hence my hit list of three old-school interpretations.

No issues whatsoever with Maag, it's indeed a lovely performance, he paces it so well, and the orchestra seem well and truly on his side. He's rather good in the skippy happy bits of the first movement, and of the third too. If there's anything missing, it's a bit of heft, but this is purely a personal preference, and don't worry, I won't hold you responsible in any way for the (actually non-existent!) disappointment!

For me, Bruno Walter is the best, I prefer his No.4 even above his much-praised Pastoral. Kletzki scores well with the orchestral sound - the Czechs still had that wonderful woodwind sound that is perhaps less distinct these days. Jochum (his EMI London recording) was the recording I really bonded with this work over. I had it on the old EMI Eminence LPs, I think coupled with a Leonore overture, played it to death! He makes the second movement into a beautiful combination of rhythm and gentleness (no doubt others manage just as well, but this one's mine!) that brings out the human side of Beethoven as well as anyone does. 

Him and Cluytens are still my go-to conductors with these pieces.


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## wkasimer

flamencosketches said:


> Why, what's wrong with the Walter Mahler box? I was considering getting it. I like all the sony boxes I have.


The sound is dreadful. I have earlier issues of Symphonies 1&2, all of which sound vastly better than what's in the cheap box.


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## flamencosketches

wkasimer said:


> The sound is dreadful. I have earlier issues of Symphonies 1&2, all of which sound vastly better than what's in the cheap box.


Well, I'll stick with my "Walter Edition" 2CD on Sony from the '90s with symphonies 1 & 2 (perhaps the same one you have). I'll just need to get my hands on his Columbia 5th and 9th as individual discs. I picked up his famous DLvdE with Ferrier recently too.


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## Reichstag aus LICHT

Enthusiast said:


> One set that I have been listening to recently and really liking a lot is this one:
> 
> View attachment 124937


I only recently bought the Ádám Fischer set, and I'm greatly enjoying it. What he does with some of the dynamics and phrasing might be seen as unconventional or even controversial, but I find his approach fascinating.


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## Merl

Reichstag aus LICHT said:


> I only recently bought the Ádám Fischer set, and I'm greatly enjoying it. What he does with some of the dynamics and phrasing might be seen as unconventional or even controversial, but I find his approach fascinating.


You're not the only one. I love it too and a good friend on here (whose opinion I value very highly is currently enjoying it too). Love Fisher's dynamics and phrasing which make it sound like no other cycle I can think of.


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## starthrower

It sounds different. Not sure I like it but I've only listened to samples. I wish I had seen the Skrowaczewski 90th Birthday Collection before I bought his Bruckner box. Everything in that set sounds great to me. I could've had all that music on modern recordings with one purchase.


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## Merl

starthrower said:


> It sounds different. Not sure I like it but I've only listened to samples. I wish I had seen the Skrowaczewski 90th Birthday Collection before I bought his Bruckner box. Everything in that set sounds great to me. I could've had all that music on modern recordings with one purchase.


Massive fan of Skrowaczewski's Bruckner, Brahms, Schumann and especially Beethoven here. That Beethoven set is a good is as good as it gets and everything else in that set is top quality. If you ever see it cheap buy it. Terrific. I rarely eulogise over these big sets but that one is excellent.


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## starthrower

It's on sale at a couple sites for under 60 dollars. But I've already got 12 CDs of it in Bruckner.


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## Kjetil Heggelund

Just found out that the Berlin Phil./Rattle set I bought is on spotify now. I've listened to it a bit. It's absolutely good enough for my simple guitar ears


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## Kiki

Kjetil Heggelund said:


> Just found out that the Berlin Phil./Rattle set I bought is on spotify now. I've listened to it a bit. It's absolutely good enough for my simple guitar ears


The world is full of choices. 

Though the box set has got lossless and hi-res audio, concert videos, a file download code, a 7-day ticket, and, most important of all, the box looks good on the shelf! :lol: (Talk about the satisfaction from OCD! :lol


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## Merl

Kiki said:


> The world is full of choices.
> 
> Though the box set has got lossless and hi-res audio, concert videos, a file download code, a 7-day ticket, and, most important of all, the box looks good on the shelf! :lol: (Talk about the satisfaction from OCD! :lol


It's also one of the most expensive sets on the market. Still £50 - £60 for a secondhand copy. It may look nice but that's a lot to pay for a LVB cycle.


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## SixFootScowl

Merl said:


> It's also one of the most expensive sets on the market. Still £50 - £60 for a secondhand copy. It may look nice but that's a lot to pay for a LVB cycle.


The other Rattle LvB symphony cycle is very reasonably priced. Is it not a good one?


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## Kjetil Heggelund

Merl said:


> It's also one of the most expensive sets on the market. Still £50 - £60 for a secondhand copy. It may look nice but that's a lot to pay for a LVB cycle.


If you're talking about the set I got, I only have the CD's and cost me 30 EUR


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## Kiki

^^

Well, I have the big box with the blu-rays. It was expensive... I know, un-explainable behaviour of a Rattle-hater! :lol:

Also have Rattle's Vienna set. Both sets are interesting for Rattle's blend of beautiful sound and HIP. In fact, not bad at all. Although neither is a favourite of mine. My favourtite remains Emmanuel Krivine, followed by the likes of Ádám Fischer, Harnoncourt and Chailly. When Martin Haselböck completes his cycle, it could become my favourtite set.


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## Oldhoosierdude

The mastering on that box set (notwithstanding Sony's claim to the contrary) is still the 1990s mastering. About 3 years ago, Sony Japan did a new mastering for its hybrid SACD release. The Szell megabox appears to have the newer mastering. Not sure if there's any way to get the new mastering cheaply.[/QUOTE]

Yes, the older Szell Sony box is disappointing at times with unclear sound. I didn't know a remaster is available.


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## Giorgio Pitzalis

I'm sorry for my english but nobody know Herbert Kegel?


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## Merl

Giorgio Pitzalis said:


> I'm sorry for my english but nobody know Herbert Kegel?


https://www.talkclassical.com/64817-merls-beethoven-symphony-cycles.html?highlight=Merl%27s+Beethoven+symphony+cycle+pt13


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## mbhaub

It's Saturday, March 28. If you can, go to the New York Times. They have a long read put together by several critics as to the ultimate Beethoven cycle. https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/27/arts/music/beethoven-symphony.html

1: Klemperer
2: Norrington
3: Bernstein/NYPO
4: Haitink/LSO
5: Boulez (!)
6: C Kleiber
7: Honeck
8: Gardiner
9: Furtwangler

I really don't care what their snooty critics think. Still, I find no Karajan to be disturbing. And the Boulez 5th? Even the conductor didn't like it.


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## Brahmsianhorn

I would say:

1: Bernstein
2: Beecham
3: Klemperer
4: Karajan
5: Kleiber
6: Walter
7: Toscanini 
8: Bohm
9: Furtwängler

EDIT: responding to the above post regarding a cycle made up of one different conductor for each symphony


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## Allegro Con Brio

Brahmsianhorn said:


> 2: Beecham


I didn't know Beecham had recorded any Beethoven, let alone a cycle!


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## Joachim Raff

A consistent, tight and no messing about cycle. Polished performances, great quality recording with no freakishness


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## mbhaub

Of all the big band sets I own, I find this one ^^^^ always rewarding, solid, and enjoyable. The violin concerto is one of the best I know of, and the piano concertos aren't far behind. I read somewhere that the conductor was unhappy with the 9th and he wished they could have redone it. I find nothing lacking at all.


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## Simplicissimus

Let me join this discussion by summarizing my life’s story of which Beethoven symphony cycles I *did* buy:

- Growing up in my parents’ house it was Toscanini. Then later in life I got a CD set in order to stay connected with my roots.
- Went away to college, parents bought me Walter LPs. Later in life bought CD set... roots and I really like it.
- Moved to Philadelphia for graduate school, became obsessed with Ormandy and the Philadelphia Sound, blew a part of my stipend to get the set. Later, got the CD set... roots.
- Went crazy and rejected everything but HIP, got Brüggen set.
- Partially recovered, acquired a number of recordings of individual symphonies by Stokowski, Dorati, Reiner, Munch.
- Retired, had time for serious thought and research concerning Beethoven symphony sets, went for Skrowaczewski.
- Happy with all my sets and individual recordings, not looking to acquire any more.

Franz


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## KenOC

mbhaub said:


> It's Saturday, March 28. If you can, go to the New York Times. They have a long read put together by several critics as to the ultimate Beethoven cycle. https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/27/arts/music/beethoven-symphony.html
> 
> 1: Klemperer
> 2: Norrington
> 3: Bernstein/NYPO
> 4: Haitink/LSO
> 5: Boulez (!)
> 6: C Kleiber
> 7: Honeck
> 8: Gardiner
> 9: Furtwangler
> 
> I really don't care what their snooty critics think. Still, I find no Karajan to be disturbing. And the Boulez 5th? Even the conductor didn't like it.


A Beethoven frankencycle as assembled in a series of voting games elsewhere. No Karajan but no Boulez either! 

Symphony No. 1 - Christopher Hogwood, Academy of Ancient Music
Symphony No. 2 - John Eliot Gardiner, Orchestre Révolutionnaire et Romantique (Archiv)
Symphony No. 3 - Leonard Bernstein, Vienna Philharmonic Orchestra
Symphony No. 4 - Bruno Walter, Columbia Symphony Orchestra
Symphony No. 5 - Wilhelm Furtwangler, Vienna Philharmonic Orchestra 1954
Symphony No. 6 - Bruno Walter, Columbia Symphony Orchestra
Symphony No. 7 - Claudio Abbado, Berlin Philharmonic Orchestra studio
Symphony No. 8 - Paul Kletzki, Czech Philharmonic Orchestra
Symphony No. 9 - Ferenc Fricsay, Berlin Philharmonic Orchestra


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## Brahmsianhorn

Allegro Con Brio said:


> I didn't know Beecham had recorded any Beethoven, let alone a cycle!


Oh, sorry to confuse! I was responding to the NYT article. In addition to his superlative 2nd Beecham also left an exceptional 7th. They are coupled together on an EMI two-fer along with his Mass in C.


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## Merl

Allegro Con Brio said:


> I didn't know Beecham had recorded any Beethoven, let alone a cycle!


Although he was often critical of Beethoven's symphonies (especially the 7th and 9th), Beecham conducted all the Beethoven symphonies during his lifetime. He made studio recordings of 2, 3, 4, 6, 7 and 8. There's also a live recording of the 9th from Edinburgh in 1956 which, if I recall, had a very ragged and badly sung finale. Whilst there are a few admirers of Beecham's Beethoven, it does, on the whole, little for me. I still really like his 2nd and don't mind his 7th. I used to really enjoy his 6th too but I listened to it again recently and found it boring and far too relaxed.


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## shadowdancer

For those interested, I put together the Beethoven Cycle from NYT as an Apple Music Playlist:
https://music.apple.com/br/playlist/beethoven-symphonies-cycle/pl.u-DdANNLdTlp4VkX


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## DavidA

Merl said:


> Although he was often critical of Beethoven's symphonies (especially the 7th and 9th), Beecham conducted all the Beethoven symphonies during his lifetime. He made studio recordings of 2, 3, 4, 6, 7 and 8. There's also a live recording of the 9th from Edinburgh in 1956 which, if I recall, had a very ragged and badly sung finale. Whilst there are a few admirers of Beecham's Beethoven, it does, on the whole, little for me. I still really like his 2nd and don't mind his 7th. I used to really enjoy his 6th too but I listened to it again recently and found it boring and far too relaxed.


One always needed to take what Beecham said with a pinch of salt. He was basically a very insecure man underneath and made up for it with these outrageous quips. I have performances are number 3, 6 and seven. 6 is very fine.


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## Joachim Raff

DavidA said:


> One always needed to take what Beecham said with a pinch of salt. He was basically a very insecure man underneath and made up for it with these outrageous quips. I have performances are number 3, 6 and seven. 6 is very fine.


I have a friend who used to play Trombone with the BBC and worked under conductors like Antal Doráti, Colin Davis, Pierre Boulez, Rozhdestvensky. He also worked with Beecham but his opinion of him as a conductor is mediocre at the best. I always thought he was better suited to the British Composers and their pastoral soundings.


----------



## Allegro Con Brio

Beecham wasn't always relaxed, mellow, and improvisatory as we have come to know him through his handful of stereo recordings. There are older recordings from the '40's and '50's of the Franck symphony and Sibelius 2 that are blazing hot. That said, he had a particular style just like all great conductors and he wasn't afraid to use it. The other day I listened to his Scheherazade, and though it isn't as intense as the greatest Russian interpretations, it is full of beautiful colors. He had better success with music that demanded an effortless, feather-light touch; which is not how I see most Beethoven symphonies; but I could see how it would work well in the 2nd and 6th.


----------



## Merl

Allegro Con Brio said:


> Beecham wasn't always relaxed, mellow, and improvisatory as we have come to know him through his handful of stereo recordings. There are older recordings from the '40's and '50's of the Franck symphony and Sibelius 2 that are blazing hot. That said, he had a particular style just like all great conductors and he wasn't afraid to use it. The other day I listened to his Scheherazade, and though it isn't as intense as the greatest Russian interpretations, it is full of beautiful colors. He had better success with music that demanded an effortless, feather-light touch; which is not how I see most Beethoven symphonies; but I could see how it would work well in the 2nd and 6th.


I like his 2nd for the opposite reasons. He was one of the first to treat it as a proper symphony and not some Haydnesque piece. It's quite a vigorous reading.


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## Johnnie Burgess

Merl said:


> Although he was often critical of Beethoven's symphonies (especially the 7th and 9th), Beecham conducted all the Beethoven symphonies during his lifetime. He made studio recordings of 2, 3, 4, 6, 7 and 8. There's also a live recording of the 9th from Edinburgh in 1956 which, if I recall, had a very ragged and badly sung finale. Whilst there are a few admirers of Beecham's Beethoven, it does, on the whole, little for me. I still really like his 2nd and don't mind his 7th. I used to really enjoy his 6th too but I listened to it again recently and found it boring and far too relaxed.


Did he record symphony 1?


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## Merl

Johnnie Burgess said:


> Did he record symphony 1?


Not that I'm aware of. Pretty sure that 1&5 are the ones missing from a complete cycle. However, with recordings being discovered here there and everywhere, wo knows may turn up in the future.


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## Simplicissimus

Joachim Raff said:


> View attachment 132533
> 
> 
> A consistent, tight and no messing about cycle. Polished performances, great quality recording with no freakishness


Wow, Just when I thought "no more Beethoven symphony sets for me," you post this beauty! But the set is over $350 used on Amazon and not available on ArkivMusic. I admire Schmidt-Isserstedt enormously and would so much like to listen to these.


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## wkasimer

seitzpf said:


> Wow, Just when I thought "no more Beethoven symphony sets for me," you post this beauty! But the set is over $350 used on Amazon and not available on ArkivMusic. I admire Schmidt-Isserstedt enormously and would so much like to listen to these.


I wouldn't pay much attention to those inflated prices. Keep your eyes open on eBay; I bought a sealed copy recently for $40, and a used copy with a somewhat worn external box sold for less than $10.

In addition, you can find some of the individual symphonies on various Decca (or London) CD's, usually quite cheaply. It's a good, solid set, but I'm not sure that it's essential now that there have been scores of complete recordings since. The only symphony in the set that I find really memorable is the 9th, and that may be because a) the soloists are superb and b) it was my first recording of the work on LP.


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## wkasimer

Joachim Raff said:


> View attachment 132533
> 
> 
> A consistent, tight and no messing about cycle. Polished performances, great quality recording with no freakishness


I agree, but you can find similar characteristics with either of Blomstedt's sets, or Mariss Jansons'. And probably others - I hear nothing perverse about Barenboim's set with the Staatskapelle Berlin, which can easily be found for the price of a few rolls of toilet paper.


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## Allegro Con Brio

One of the cool things about Beethoven cycles is, because virtually everyone has recorded one, there are so many different orchestral sounds and performance styles to dive into. Blomstedt with the Staatskapelle Dresden is a natural favorite for me because the Dresden is probably my favorite orchestra. But I also adore the Kletzki/Czech Phil with those bubbly woodwinds! Surprised not to see this one getting more mentions. I also have a big soft spot for the magesterial beauty of Bohm (his VPO 9th and his gorgeous 6th are two of my absolute favorites), and, on the opposite spectrum; the lean, mean bands of Jarvi and Skrowaczewski. But my absolute favorite may be Jochum. Some popular ones I'm not too big on are Szell (too dry and mechanical, often a barrier to my enjoying Szell/Cleveland recordings), Harnoncourt (can't decide if it wants to be HIP, instead it just comes out sounding anemic...I learned Beethoven's symphonies through these recordings and thought Beethoven was really overrated until I explored other performances), Gardiner (it's like they just want to get it over with so they can go home), and Karajan '63 (I know, it's heresy! But I just don't hear it...)


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## wkasimer

Allegro Con Brio said:


> But my absolute favorite may be Jochum.


But which one? There are three complete cycles....


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## Brahmsianhorn

I generally prefer Karajan ‘77 to Karajan ‘63. I like the extra weight. 

I don’t like symphony cycles in general, but if I had to choose Bohm and Bernstein’s DG cycles are both the ones I would keep, aside from overly ponderous 5ths. Otherwise both are uniformly excellent.


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## Allegro Con Brio

wkasimer said:


> But which one? There are three complete cycles....


Only one I've heard is the RCO cycle...ah, now I see he did one with the BPO as well. What's the other one?


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## Merl

Allegro Con Brio said:


> Only one I've heard is the RCO cycle...ah, now I see he did one with the BPO as well. What's the other one?


It's with the LSO. Probably my favourite of his cycles. It's nowhere as good as Blomstedt's terrific Dresden cycle or Kletzki's often overlooked set but there's no duffers in there and many people rate his 9th from that cycle highly. The BPO / BRSO mono / stereo one isn't that great, IMO but the RCO is ok. You can pick the LSO one up as part of this set (pic below) with his very good LPO Brahms cycle and Dresden Bruckner cycle plus some Mozart and Bach.


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## HenryPenfold

all of 'em. coz that's pretty much what I did :lol:


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## CnC Bartok

Apparently the Concertgebouw cycle - Jochum's second of the three - is coming out in the middle of May. This from PrestoClassical:









No specific contents info, but I assume we can assume?


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## Allegro Con Brio

Merl said:


> It's with the LSO. Probably my favourite of his cycles. It's nowhere as good as Blomstedt's terrific Dresden cycle or Kletzki's often overlooked set but there's no duffers in there and many people rate his 9th from that cycle highly. The BPO / BRSO mono / stereo one isn't that great, IMO but the RCO is ok. You can pick the LSO one up as part of this set (pic below) with his very good LSO Brahms cycle and Dresden Bruckner cycle plus some Mozart and Bach.
> 
> View attachment 132643


Cool, will check it out. His LSO Brahms is a runaway for my favorite Brahms cycle (I've heard several more Brahms cycles than Beethoven, but still probably not nearly as many as you!)


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## Merl

Allegro Con Brio said:


> Cool, will check it out. His LSO Brahms is a runaway for my favorite Brahms cycle (I've heard several more Brahms cycles than Beethoven, but still probably not nearly as many as you!)


I meant LPO Brahms cycle. Apologies but my phone changed it. Yeah,, many people will just point to Jochum's mono BPO Brahms cycle but that LPO set is as good (if not better for some) and in stereo.


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## Allegro Con Brio

Merl said:


> I meant LPO Brahms cycle. Apologies but my phone changed it. Yeah,, many people will just point to Jochum's mono BPO Brahms cycle but that LPO set is as good (if not better for some) and in stereo.


Aargh, my memory is not serving me today! I did mean the mono BPO cycle is my favorite Brahms (actually really good sound for mono). But I think I'll tee up some of his London Beethoven and Brahms this afternoon and see how it compares. He's generally one of my favorite conductors; I find his sense of phrasing quite unmatched. The Dresden Bruckner doesn't do too much for me, though.


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## MAS

Just received this today, haven't yet listened, but read a wonderful review of it.









Otherwise, I have Kleiber's 5&7, Bernstein's 9th in Berlin for the Wall.


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## Granate

^^

Great bargain. I once thought of getting it but I still cannot talke the Abbado Style in Berlin.


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## Granate

_In case the pictures have broken links: Beethoven symphonies cond. by Otto Klemperer in Torino Studio (No.1), Live in Cologne (No.3 & No.9) and Live in Amsterdam 1956 (2,4-8) and 1964 (9)._​
My head and my heart have gone nuts with these mono recordings. I needed to listen to them for a second time to gasp in awe for the conducting. I would really recommend stereo cycles, but since the ones I really like are either OOP or quite expensive, I've found shelter in Klemperer's Beethoven.

Especially the Amsterdam ones sound worse. However, the style has nothing to do with the slowness of the studio cycle. I have bought the set and I have to get with luck this 9th, which is already dispatched from HK.

Spotify has all the tapes included here by the label Archiphon. You can preview them there. If you want these bargains, Protagonista UK sells the set for 4 pounds plus delivery and the 9th is either with lots of stock in Ebay or here in amazon too. This is an amazing bargain to enjoy before it disappears.

Which Beethoven Cycles I'd love to buy?

Szell Cleveland, Böhm WPO, Schmidt-Isserstedt WPO, Ansermet SuisseRomande, Bernsten NYPO, Immerseel AnimaAeterna


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## Kiki

Now that it is complete - Martin Haselböck's "Resound Beethoven" Vol. 1-8. Doesn't displace my Emmanuel Krivine, Ádám Fischer, Nikolaus Harnoncourt or Riccardo Chailly though.


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## Kjetil Heggelund

Hey! I also bought a download of them all with Charles Mackerras and Scottish Chamber Orchestra/Philharmonia Orchestra. I didn't hear that one as much as my Berlin Phil/Rattle set. Don't think Mackerras is on spotify since it's on Hyperion records. I once had a marathon of all the symphonies with different orchestras and conductors, and think I only disliked one. I almost remember which one...


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## Merl

Kiki said:


> Now that it is complete - Martin Haselböck's "Resound Beethoven" Vol. 1-8. Doesn't displace my Emmanuel Krivine, Ádám Fischer, Nikolaus Harnoncourt or Riccardo Chailly though.


That will be in my next lot of reviews. I finally got the last part, last week.


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## Kiki

Merl said:


> That will be in my next lot of reviews. I finally got the last part, last week.


And I'm eagerly looking forward to reading it!


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## Merl

Kiki said:


> And I'm eagerly looking forward to reading it!


Slow down, eager-Mcbeaver. I've got another 4 to review along with this. Wont be another few weeks at least yet. Lol.


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## Bigbang

For Merl: I submitted this post without any link. I was wondering if you have heard and rated the cycles below. Thanks


Did you ever review the Otmar Suitner Denon Beethoven cycle? The laserlight Janos Fernersik conductor? I did not see but might have missed. Now the LL is pretty crappy sound but bought way back when. Denon label was released back when the old recordings did not get out and this was one of the newest recordings on the market. I think the Pastorale was pretty good if I remember but hits and misses on various movements in the cycle. Think I will pull out and play to see how well they stack up...I feel fairly certain they are better than any new cycles of recent years. I do not care about collecting cycles anyway and own good selections on all the individual symphonies.


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## The3Bs

I do not have order of preference on Beethoven cycles but like those from:

Toscanini (the first I heard fully in the late seventies)
Karajan 63 but with the 9th from the 77 
Szell

But for individual symphonies I have other favorites:
3rd - Klemperer (Phillarmonia)
5th Szell with the Concertgebouw
4th Kleiber
9th Several of Furtwangler recordings

However, ultimately the cycle I am most eagerly awaiting for (wishful thinking) is that from Akademie für Alte Musik Berlin. They have just released Beethoven's Pastoral... and what an outstanding performance that is!!!! I would love to see what they could do with the others...


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## Merl

Bigbang said:


> For Merl: I submitted this post without any link. I was wondering if you have heard and rated the cycles below. Thanks
> 
> Did you ever review the Otmar Suitner Denon Beethoven cycle? The laserlight Janos Fernersik conductor? I did not see but might have missed. Now the LL is pretty crappy sound but bought way back when. Denon label was released back when the old recordings did not get out and this was one of the newest recordings on the market. I think the Pastorale was pretty good if I remember but hits and misses on various movements in the cycle. Think I will pull out and play to see how well they stack up...I feel fairly certain they are better than any new cycles of recent years. I do not care about collecting cycles anyway and own good selections on all the individual symphonies.


I reviewed the Ferencsik cycle in the link below, Bigbang. I was a little hard on it but it's a pretty average set so I couldn't be very enthusiastic about it and the sound quality, as you say, is not great.

Merl's Beethoven Symphony Cycle Reviews Pt10

As for the Suitner Denon cycle, I have it but have not played it in years (at least 6 years). AFAIK (and correct me if I'm wrong) the Suitner cycle wasn't reviewed in Granate's original posts so maybe I should revisit it and review it in my next lot of reviews? I'll take it from my external HD later and shove it on the laptop so I can start listening or see if its on Spotify. If I recall it is a decent but unspectacular cycle but I wont jump to any conclusions as its been so long since I listened. Do recall the 6th was very good but I'll retry it anyway. Give me a week and you can read my review.


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## Kiki

The3Bs said:


> ...
> 
> However, ultimately the cycle I am most eagerly awaiting for (wishful thinking) is that from Akademie für Alte Musik Berlin. They have just released Beethoven's Pastoral... and what an outstanding performance that is!!!! I would love to see what they could do with the others...


I like the recent Pastorale from the Akademie für Alte Musik Berlin. It has everything good about HIP, plus it sounds smooth and refined. I've no idea if they are going to do a cycle. If so, I'll be looking forward to that.

By the way, their coupling, Justin Heinrich Knecht's "Le portrait musical de la nature", is also interesting. It makes a great comparison with Beethoven's Pastorale on how a "pastoral symphony" written by another composer may sound like.


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## DaddyGeorge

Kiki said:


> I like the recent Pastorale from the Akademie für Alte Musik Berlin. It has everything good about HIP, plus it sounds smooth and refined. I've no idea if they are going to do a cycle. If so, I'll be looking forward to that.
> 
> By the way, their coupling, Justin Heinrich Knecht's "Le portrait musical de la nature", is also interesting. It makes a great comparison with Beethoven's Pastorale on how a "pastoral symphony" written by another composer may sound like.


I would also be very interested in such a set. As far as I know they have symphonies Nos. 1, 2, 3, 5 and 6 in their repertoire. I'm afraid, however, that not only concerts but also recording plans for this Beethoven's year will be negatively affected by the ongoing epidemic.


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## Bigbang

Merl said:


> I reviewed the Ferencsik cycle in the link below, Bigbang. I was a little hard on it but it's a pretty average set so I couldn't be very enthusiastic about it and the sound quality, as you say, is not great.
> 
> Merl's Beethoven Symphony Cycle Reviews Pt10
> 
> As for the Suitner Denon cycle, I have it but have not played it in years (at least 6 years). AFAIK (and correct me if I'm wrong) the Suitner cycle wasn't reviewed in Granate's original posts so maybe I should revisit it and review it in my next lot of reviews? I'll take it from my external HD later and shove it on the laptop so I can start listening or see if its on Spotify. If I recall it is a decent but unspectacular cycle but I wont jump to any conclusions as its been so long since I listened. Do recall the 6th was very good but I'll retry it anyway. Give me a week and you can read my review.


Thanks. I would say the spirit is there on the laserlight but the quality of sound recording is not good. It was my first introduction to Beethoven before moving on to other selections. I will wait on your review on Suitner. I really wonder how it compares to the average run of the mill cycles these last years. I also have the Weller/Birmingham set...I agree with your review of it.


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## Merl

Bigbang said:


> Thanks. I would say the spirit is there on the laserlight but the quality of sound recording is not good. It was my first introduction to Beethoven before moving on to other selections. I will wait on your review on Suitner. I really wonder how it compares to the average run of the mill cycles these last years. I also have the Weller/Birmingham set...I agree with your review of it.


On the subject of Suitner, I listened to some of that cycle yesterday and there's a few stand-out recordings already (I'll come to those when I review it) and it's actually better than I remember it. That Weller cycle was one of my earliest bargains. I picked it up for a ridiculous price and its a fine, solid cycle. I know I've said this many times but there are many, many good or better LVB cycles (let's face it we're spoiled for choice with 180-ish LVB cycles out there, not to mention the many partial sets). There's actually very few that I particularly dislike amongst the 'big name' sets who don't knock out a capable collection. So many cycles have been recorded and most have their particular merits. It's rare that a lot of people champion the same set on the same thread so enthusiastically. Even if they do I sometimes view it suspiciously as you can expect a certain degree of bias, review by reputation without listening, fanboyism and in some cases shellacophilia. I always urge people to listen with their own ears, not be too swayed by the reputation of recordings and find what they like. That's why I liked Granate's original reviews. Although I disagreed often with his opinions, he came to the recordings he reviewed without bias and wrote down his thoughts. He wasn't the last word in LvB reviews but at least they were honest opinions.


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## perdido34

Haitink's LSO cycle on SACD (LSO Live) has some wonderful performances, especially 1, 2, 6, and 8. The multichannel sound serves the orchestra's excellent playing well--it's a little on the dry side, but clear without being overly close and spotlit.


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## Bigbang

Merl said:


> On the subject of Suitner, I listened to some of that cycle yesterday and there's a few stand-out recordings already (I'll come to those when I review it) and it's actually better than I remember it. That Weller cycle was one of my earliest bargains. I picked it up for a ridiculous price and its a fine, solid cycle. I know I've said this many times but there are many, many good or better LVB cycles (let's face it we're spoiled for choice with 180-ish LVB cycles out there, not to mention the many partial sets). There's actually very few that I particularly dislike amongst the 'big name' sets who don't knock out a capable collection. So many cycles have been recorded and most have their particular merits. It's rare that a lot of people champion the same set on the same thread so enthusiastically. Even if they do I sometimes view it suspiciously as you can expect a certain degree of bias, review by reputation without listening, fanboyism and in some cases shellacophilia. I always urge people to listen with their own ears, not be too swayed by the reputation of recordings and find what they like. That's why I liked Granate's original reviews. Although I disagreed often with his opinions, he came to the recordings he reviewed without bias and wrote down his thoughts. He wasn't the last word in LvB reviews but at least they were honest opinions.


I pulled out the pastorale symphony by Suitner last night. I liked it (keep it short so I do not bias you). Even the Eroica was surprisingly good but in and out of the room so I need to spin it again. There are some sound issues and noticed some early digital (like 1980).

If you can link Granate's reviews here so I can look at them I would appreciate it. I own so many good B's 6th and 9th's, with 5th close in number but the rest I own top versions but not as many. Cycles I have-Masur's first 1970"s (I know what you rated and think but I do like the Eroica though) Rene Leibowitz, Krips, aside from the ones I mentioned already in previous post. There is something about revisiting works as reliving the days spent listening to them, it is not just about the symphony but the time back when and it feels right even when not immaculate.


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## Bigbang

I found some posts on Granate discussing Beethoven symphonies. Will read these over time.


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## Granate

Bigbang said:


> I found some posts on Granate discussing Beethoven symphonies. Will read these over time.


Granate Table 1
Granate Table 2
Granate Table 3
Granate Table 4
Granate Table 5
Granate Table 6

Thank you!

I'm listening to Klemperer's Studio cycle on Spotify. It sounds and is performed way worse than I remember. The Vienna 1960 Cycle sometimes has similar sound quality and most times, performances had more dynamism, equal colour and portrayed better that "granitic style" Klemperer was known for.

Not replacing at all the Amsterdam and Cologne recordings I'm finishing collecting. More like a very "maniac" style, just the way I like Mahler (Tennstedt) and Bruckner (Knappertsbusch and Furtwängler).

I know the Pristine versions, I had listened to them too. Not going to get them.


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## Bigbang

Granate said:


> Granate Table 1
> Granate Table 2
> Granate Table 3
> Granate Table 4
> Granate Table 5
> Granate Table 6
> 
> Thank you!
> 
> I'm listening to Klemperer's Studio cycle on Spotify. It sounds and is performed way worse than I remember. The Vienna 1960 Cycle sometimes has similar sound quality and most times, performances had more dynamism, equal colour and portrayed better that "granitic style" Klemperer was known for.
> 
> Not replacing at all the Amsterdam and Cologne recordings I'm finishing collecting. More like a very "maniac" style, just the way I like Mahler (Tennstedt) and Bruckner (Knappertsbusch and Furtwängler).
> 
> I know the Pristine versions, I had listened to them too. Not going to get them.


Thanks, Granate for posting. I did a very quick read and will read in more detail later. A couple of comments: I think Szell's 8th is worth mentioning along with the 3rd. I say this as his 5th is not the 5th one might assume given the performance of 3,8,9th. For me his 5th has a vision he brought to it but it is not the powerhouse type of performance.

Solti 6 analog version is very good and I was surprised how much I like it. I get real bored on the 6th so I always like one that makes me interested in hearing it. I still am mystified why I like Masur 3rd eroica from the first cycle. Whenever I hear it I feel compelled to complete my listening to it in its entirety so it is not some cold reading. Penguin stated it was the finest of his cycle but we know how that goes....

Will keep reading...most of these works I have not heard before except the more popular ones from the 60's to 70's.


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## Bigbang

[My favourites were No.6, which isn't the referent Pastoral I read almost everywhere, and a dynamic and powerful No.4.] Granate

I put this quote off Granate review of Beethoven/Bohm cycle. News to me as I was under the impression the 6th is from the cycle. I own the 6th with Schubert 5. I own Bohm 4 with 1 pairing. I like it as well. I have heard all at various times and if I find out anything about the 6th I will stream it.

[ For No.9, unlike the fine performance within the set, the individual release from 1982 offers a more polished sound and heartfelt conducting. The singers are a treat in that one.] Granate

I cannot remember the 9th from the set but I agree on the "live" version from 1982. I have two cds of the same version just in case (hey buy the deals)...There are those who cannot separate being old (Bohm) from being too old to conduct as in he cannot seem to whip the baton /and orchestra into a Beethoven frenzy. One only has to let go of preoccupation and listen carefully and not impose (our) will on the conductor. I was shocked at first, very briefly, then was taken in to the performance as a whole.


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## The3Bs

DaddyGeorge said:


> I would also be very interested in such a set. As far as I know they have symphonies Nos. 1, 2, 3, 5 and 6 in their repertoire. I'm afraid, however, that not only concerts but also recording plans for this Beethoven's year will be negatively affected by the ongoing epidemic.


On top of the Akademie für Alte Musik Berlin (AKAMUS Berlin) wishes for more recordings to add to the wonderful 6th they just released I would like to add also the MusicAeterna under Teodor Currentzis. They are going to release the 5th (first movement available on Spotify - and what a 1st mvnt that is!!!!) later this month and the 7th in the autumn...

If what I heard of that first movement is an indication of what's coming ... we should be in for a treat!!!!


----------



## DavidA

Granate said:


> Granate Table 1
> Granate Table 2
> Granate Table 3
> Granate Table 4
> Granate Table 5
> Granate Table 6
> 
> Thank you!
> 
> I'm listening to Klemperer's Studio cycle on Spotify. It sounds and is performed way worse than I remember. The Vienna 1960 Cycle sometimes has similar sound quality and most times, performances had more dynamism, equal colour and portrayed better that "granitic style" Klemperer was known for.
> 
> Not replacing at all the Amsterdam and Cologne recordings I'm finishing collecting. More like a very "maniac" style, just the way I like Mahler (Tennstedt) and Bruckner (Knappertsbusch and Furtwängler).
> 
> I know the Pristine versions, I had listened to them too. Not going to get them.


But when I was a young man to speak against Klemperer's Beethoven was heresy. How times change!


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## Granate

DavidA said:


> But when I was a young man to speak against Klemperer's Beethoven was heresy. How times change!


I know. And I'd love you develop your point. I wonder: When they replied to you did they talk about the live performances they attended or the EMI cycle? Because I can hardly see any resemblance apart from the Eroica.

I would understand that the style through that early-stereo era was Klemperer-Konwitschny-Walter-Cluytens-Furtwängler, against the new wave started by Karajan followed by Kubelík or Bóhm. And then not all had the same access to Konwitschny (compiled in the 1970s) or Cluytens. Probably since you lived in England, the EMI Beethoven cycle counted with the most publicity of all, while the Germanic DG was the rival. Am I right?

To be fair I'm going through a Klemperer Phase, because Archiphon has a huge collection of live mono recordings from the early years, before joining Columbia/EMI. I should listen to all his Hungarian Opera performances, as well as the remaining Cologne and Amsterdam concerts. When I get the Testament and Vienna Beethoven recordings I'll see if I can make a combination of Bad Mono against Clean Mono performances.

Clean Mono:
No.1 WDR 54
No.2 Philharmonia RFH 57 ?
No.3 Philharmonia Vienna 60
No.4 Philharmonia RFH 57 ?
No.5 Philharmonia RFH 57 ?
No.6 Philharmonia Vienna 60
No.7 RIAS 54
No.8 WDR 55 (I don't really like it)
No.9 WDR 58

Bad Mono:
No.1 Torino 56
No.2 RCO 56
No.3 WDR 54
No.4 RCO 56
No.5 RCO 56
No.6 RCO 56
No.7 RCO 55
No.8 RCO 56
No.9 RCO 64


----------



## Brahmsianhorn

I still count the stereo Klemp Eroica and Pastoral among my favorites


----------



## NightHawk

mbhaub said:


> That is a GREAT set and so unknown...I first had in on Reader's Digest LPs and still own them - as well as the later CD incarnations. Terrific performances, great conducting, wonderful playing and superb sound despite being over 50 now.
> 
> For a relatively, new, modern set I have enjoyed the Paavo Jarvi set a great deal. Superb sound and thrilling performances.
> View attachment 121677


I Will be looking into the Liebowitz, but I wanted to say that Paavo Jarvi's cycle with the Kammer Philharmonie Bremen is really fine. I collected all 9, piecemeal when they were being released and was amazed at their virtuosity and depth. The 4th is absolutely breathtaking (esp the Finale!) as are the rest of them!


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## Kjetil Heggelund

Now the German label MDG is on spotify. They have a cycle with Beethoven Orchester Bonn & Stefan Blunier. I bought no. 3 on iTunes a while ago and really like it. Now I'm listening to no. 8. Nothing wrong in my ears, I think it sounds amazing!


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## ToneDeaf&Senile

David Hurwitz, a long-established name in recording review circles, recently launched a YouTube channel. Amongst its offerings; his pick of the 'best' Beethoven symphony cycles. I am happy to report that his top choice is Guntar Wand. I've owned some of these performances (for decades) and think very highly of them. For whatever reason I never bothered to complete the Wand cycle. Until Hurwitz assessment. Finding the CD set Hurwitz shows on-screen very reasonably priced at Amazon (about $21US) I ordered it early last week. It arrived yesterday. (Ordering the set is cheaper than buying the individual performances I lacked.) Of those performances not heard before, I've listened to symphonies 2, 4 and 5 thus far and am quite favorably impressed. Here's the Hurwitz video:


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## Enthusiast

A thumbs up from Hurwitz comes close to being automatically a thumbs down for me.


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## DavidA

Granate said:


> I know. And I'd love you develop your point. I wonder: When they replied to you did they talk about the live performances they attended or the EMI cycle? Because I can hardly see any resemblance apart from the Eroica.
> 
> I would understand that the style through that early-stereo era was Klemperer-Konwitschny-Walter-Cluytens-Furtwängler, against the new wave started by Karajan followed by Kubelík or Bóhm. And then not all had the same access to Konwitschny (compiled in the 1970s) or Cluytens. Probably since you lived in England, the EMI Beethoven cycle counted with the most publicity of all, while the Germanic DG was the rival. Am I right?
> 
> To be fair I'm going through a Klemperer Phase, because Archiphon has a huge collection of live mono recordings from the early years, before joining Columbia/EMI. I should listen to all his Hungarian Opera performances, as well as the remaining Cologne and Amsterdam concerts. When I get the Testament and Vienna Beethoven recordings I'll see if I can make a combination of Bad Mono against Clean Mono performances.
> 
> Clean Mono:
> No.1 WDR 54
> No.2 Philharmonia RFH 57 ?
> No.3 Philharmonia Vienna 60
> No.4 Philharmonia RFH 57 ?
> No.5 Philharmonia RFH 57 ?
> No.6 Philharmonia Vienna 60
> No.7 RIAS 54
> No.8 WDR 55 (I don't really like it)
> No.9 WDR 58
> 
> Bad Mono:
> No.1 Torino 56
> No.2 RCO 56
> No.3 WDR 54
> No.4 RCO 56
> No.5 RCO 56
> No.6 RCO 56
> No.7 RCO 55
> No.8 RCO 56
> No.9 RCO 64


Of course Klemperer was an old man when he made his recordings for EMI - He was a lot more vigourous when he was younger. But his performances have great qualities but they always seem to be rather too slow to really catch fire


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## Heck148

DavidA said:


> Of course Klemperer was an old man when he made his recordings for EMI - He was a lot more vigourous when he was younger. But his performances have great qualities but they always seem to be rather too slow to really catch fire


I always wonder with Klemperer if his physical disabilities played a major part in his later years performances - the poor guy was sort of a wreck - he'd suffered a terrible fall from a brain tumor, resulting in serious head injury from which he never fully recovered; he fell and broke his femur, putting him out of action for a year; and he also was burned badly in a smoking in bed accident.
I remember seeing a video of him conducting the Philharmonia in his later years - a huge, imposing figure, he conducts awkwardly, with a rigid up and down closed-fisted technique - a "Frankenstein of the podium" if you will...still he knew what he wanted, and was a powerful personality.


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## UniversalTuringMachine

Heck148 said:


> a "Frankenstein of the podium" if you will...still he knew what he wanted, and was a powerful personality.


"Frankenstein of the podium" how apt!

Outside the usual suspects, I vote for Paavo Jarvi's refreshing new cycle. It's not just fast like those HIPs, but all the inner rhythmic details are there, simply incredible. There is nothing better than new discoveries for jaded listeners.


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## The3Bs

Brahmsianhorn said:


> I still count the stereo Klemp Eroica and Pastoral among my favorites


I have Klemperer'e Eroica on my personal Everest!!!
Have not tried his Pastoral....


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## Animal the Drummer

I can recommend that. It's on the stately side, as one might expect, but it's one view and IMO a perfectly legit option.


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## Granate

Granate said:


> Guys!
> 
> 5 of my Protagonista UK orders (and already refunded) arrived by post 2 days before leaving my house and moving out forever. I can't be luckier, but I had ordered other things that I thought to be lost but now they could arrive and not be ever picked. That's not today's story.
> 
> I've not often been crazy about the widely available Musikverein Beethoven cycle that Klemperer conducted in 1960. I only wanted to own the two approaches that profit better from his slow pace: the 3rd and the 6th which are winners in my opinion. I did think that this is the style that Klemperer should have performed in the studio cycle.
> 
> ...


Now that we are talking about Klemperer again, reminder if you didn't see already that I got on the mail the Philharmonia complete box in Vienna. And that it sounds better than any remaster I know. I implore you to end the stock of these two sets, now that they are for 6 pounds each. Vienna 1960 counts with better SQ and Composite Amsterdam counts with better performances.


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## Allegro Con Brio

Watching Hurwitz’s video did introduce me to the amazing Schuricht cycle, which has some of the most delightful Beethoven playing I’ve heard. Not all the symphonies are available on my streaming service, but what I’ve heard sounds very fresh with a distinctive orchestral sound. More often than not nowadays when I want to listen to Beethoven symphonies I need something unique and different to keep my interest in this music I’ve heard dozens of time. So I’ll go for the bubbly, perky sound of Kletzki/Czech Phil (perhaps my favorite orchestra in the world so I’m biased) or Blomstedt/Dresden (my other favorite orchestra); or the warm, opulent phrasing of Jochum/RCO (later London cycle not available unfortunately) and the Teutonic heft of early 2000s Barenboim. So many interpretive possibilities...


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## Granate

True. I watched the video and even if all his choices are really consistent in performing style, I don't think the Schuricht studio cycle achieves amazing performances at all symphonies. If any, I think that CD1 (No.1 and No.3) has extraordinary performances.

Not that Hurwitz really follows "his" own rules. How's that for disqualifying the Toscanini cycles because wE AlL KnOW ThAt hIS SpaRE sYmpHONy NO7 iS His BEst pERforMANCe.


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## starthrower

> Personally Skrowaczewski is my go-to set these days. Modern sound, great tempi, no bad performances


Agreed! This set surpassed my expectations. I got it from Berkshire Record Outlet for under 24 bucks. The only site I know that has cheap new copies.


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## wkasimer

Allegro Con Brio said:


> or the warm, opulent phrasing of Jochum/RCO (later London cycle not available unfortunately)


Jochum's third (London) cycle is available in this box, along with his Brahms and Bruckner:


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## Brahmsianhorn

It is Menuhin in the Great Conductors video who described Klemperer as not having technique or method but just standing there, but standing there with great authority, with music pouring out of his fingers, like a magician.

I was amazed when I saw Klemperer on video the first time, just like I was amazed when I saw Furtwängler. How on earth did they get the sounds and profound interpretations they got with such bizarre movements?

This proves what a sham the “modern technique” school of conducting is. You can’t teach great conducting. You can only unteach it.


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## Heck148

Brahmsianhorn said:


> I was amazed when I saw Klemperer on video the first time, just like I was amazed when I saw Furtwängler. How on earth did they get the sounds and profound interpretations they got with such bizarre movements?


But late Klrmperer suffers from very slow. Under,- tempo presentations....i can't help but think that his physicsl impairments were a factor.



> This proves what a sham the "modern technique" school of conducting is.


No, it "proves" no such thing....and what is "modern technique " of conducting??


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## Brahmsianhorn

Heck148 said:


> But late Klrmperer suffers from very slow. Under,- tempo presentations....i can't help but think that his physicsl impairments were a factor.


There is a famous story that Walter Legge thought his tempo in the Beethoven 6th Merry Gathering too slow, and Klemperer said he'll get used to it. Then during playback Klemperer bellowed into the mic, "Are you used to it yet?"

I don't think it was physical. I think it was what he wanted mentally in his last years. And I like it too. He achieved magnificent results. His Mahler 7th, the one everyone says is eccentrically slow, is one of my favorite all time recordings.

His St Matthew Passion is one exception for me where it simply lacks enough momentum. But then his Mass in B minor is the only completely satisfying version for me.

Klemp was Klemp. I don't know why anyone would want him to conform to some "standard." Lots of conductors mellow in their "wise" years. Solti did too.


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## Ras

Kjetil Heggelund said:


> I would like to buy a Beethoven symphony cycle box!


Follow the trend here on Talk Classical: Don't choose - buy all of them!!!


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## Heck148

Brahmsianhorn said:


> Klemp was Klemp. I don't know why anyone would want him to conform to some "standard." Lots of conductors mellow in their "wise" years. Solti did too.


It's not a matter of wanting him to conform, more of an observation that his physical problems may have affected his technique...maybe he would have slowed down regardless.....who knows??
He did become less verbose...in his earlier years, he was quite a talker....(the Labate/NYPO incident).


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## vincula

Ras said:


> Follow the trend here on Talk Classical: Don't choose - buy all of them!!!


_Der er go'_ :lol::lol::lol::lol:

Regards,

Vincula


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## Merl

Ras said:


> Follow the trend here on Talk Classical: Don't choose - buy all of them!!!


I'd avoid a fair few (says the man who has nearly all of them).


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## premont

vincula said:


> _Der er go'_ :lol::lol::lol::lol:
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Vincula


Do you mean: "Den er go' " ?


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## vincula

Yes, I do. Det var en smutter... 

My apologies, sir :tiphat:

Regards,

Vincula


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## vincula

Merl said:


> I'd avoid a fair few (says the man who has nearly all of them).


I've got too many already. I'm intrigued by Cluyten's on EMI, which I haven't heard yet. Have a bunch of Klemperer's live recordings on its way. Otherwise mostly listening to Tennstedt and revisiting Furtwängler. Great fun.

Regards,

Vincula


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## premont

vincula said:


> Det var en smutter...


No harm done.

Det kan ske for selv den bedste.


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## Marc

premont said:


> No harm done.
> 
> Det kan ske for selv den bedste.




Que?


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## Kjetil Heggelund

Ras said:


> Follow the trend here on Talk Classical: Don't choose - buy all of them!!!


I tried to buy one that wasn't on spotify, but it ended up there after a while. I'm pretty happy with spotify 
Har molboere tatt over her?


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## premont

Marc said:


> Que?


I didn't think particularly of him, but of course it may happen to him too.


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## premont

Kjetil Heggelund said:


> Har molboere tatt over her?


Ja, det var for lenge siden.


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## Marc

premont said:


> I didn't think particularly of him, but of course it may happen to him too.




Que?

:lol:


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## Marc

I.c. the real subject here: it's almost impossible to give a good 'advice', from my POV that is. There are (too?) many different recordings to enjoy in this field. Van Immerseel and Leibowitz are (probably) my top 2 choices.


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## Granate

*Beethoven binge chit-chat and ramble*

Hello people. I just wish the 2020 ends, but for another reason: I want to stop listening to new Beethoven cycle releases. It's exhausting and I'd like to continue my Nielsen symphony challenge.

In fact, there were so many cycles I had not listened to or had seriously ignored. I'm writing short reviews about them and I've been binge listening some HIP cycles and will continue for a week. Please somebody kill me.

I listened to Antonini Basel, König Luxembourg, retried the Immerseel Brugge (to my major disappointment), Janowski Cologne, and today I finished the previously unlistened Bluner Bonn (recommended by Merl) and I'm now through Symphony No.7 by the Vriend Netherlands cycle (also recommended by Merl to my great indifference -_-). Some cycles remaining like the list like Brüggen Rotterdam 2011, Adam Fischer Naxos, Sawallisch Concertgebouw, and probably a second listen to Gielen Stuttgart and Kletzki CzPO (Hurwitz recommendation) too. It's endless!

[HR][/HR]
I'd like to see if I really should buy a different HIP cycle on CD, or just remain in my 20th century tradition. But because of these comparisons, I put myself again to see what failed in the Konwitchny Beethoven No.4 from the Leipzig cycle. It's my absolute favourite cycle in stereo with one only dud: that stupid, dull No.4. I streamed some bits of cycles from the same era, like Cluytens Berlin or Szell Cleveland, and even Konwitchny Dresden in Salzburg. They were all losing to an entirely different recording which was the Böhm Vienna, with lots of guts, strength and sharp string sound. The Blomstedt Dresden No.4 was a bit similar in spirit, but in the end it turned out, and I should write it on a wall, that *there is no possible replacement or patch to the Konwitschny Leipzig Beethoven No.4.* The Salzburg performance is more dramatic and on point but the orchestra is different and the performance is in mono. The Szell Cleveland has a very different conducting to Kon even if the orchestras and recording qualities share some similarities. The Blomstedt Dresden has a very similar spirit in conducting and recording, but the playing cannot be mistaken with the Leipzig at all. Cluytens doesn't sound like Leipzig at all either, and of course Böhm goes in a very different direction.

So in the end I probably will end up buying the Böhm Vienna cycle and trust his approach in the No.4 and the rest of the symphonies since no recording can replace the style of the early Leipzig Gewandhaus cycle (don't start me on Masur, please).

[HR][/HR]
I had also been surveying all my Klemperer live Beethoven recordings and I came up with a list of preferred performance and recordings, now that I own them all on CD. In case I have doubts (..), I often push the Vienna Festwochen cycle:

No.1 - KRSO
No.2 - PO Vienna
No.3 - KRSO, then PO Vienna
No.4 - PO Vienna (...)
No.5 - PO Vienna, then RCO
No.6 - RCO 55
No.7 - RCO 56, then PO Vienna
No.8 - PO Vienna (...)
No.9 - KRSO

That's all so far. I didn't have anything too serious to post about, just about Beethoven binge listening and some appreciations. Hope you enjoy and share your adventures too.


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## Ulfilas

Right now, this would be my audition shortlist:

Barenboim, Berlin Staatskapelle (Teldec)
Vänskä, Minnesota Orchestra (BIS)
Harnoncourt, Chamber Orchestra of Europe (Teldec)
Blomstedt, Leipzig Gewandhaus (Accentus)
Järvi, DKB (RCA)
Szell, Cleveland Orchestra (Sony Classical)
Dohnányi, Cleveland Orchestra (Telarc)
Wand, NDRSO (RCA)


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## mparta

Music better than it can be played, so lots of ways to hear it.
I gave up on Szell years ago, manufactured stringency that's unmusical to my ear, no matter how great the orchestra.
Had been listening to the Abbado/Berlin for a certain clarity and joyousness and then...
one morning on a train I dialed up the '63 Karajan 8th. Put me back on my heels. That was a couple of years ago and still responding to it.
Old Furtwaengler 6th made me collect his "set" and I think that's hard to surpass but even more than so many others, a really strong viewpoint that I don't always want.
I bought the Chailly set, got little to nothing out of it.
I heard Gardiner play the Schumann symphonies at Alice Tully Hall with his toy orchestra. nope.
So for a set-- if I were buying one-- still von Karajan '63. But I was raised by a father who drove Cadillacs, not to today's taste in general, more of an "Irishman" aesthetic, lol


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## mparta

And I don't know about the recordings but years ago I heard Barenboim (not often to my taste) play the series at Carnegie hall with the Staatskapelle. And then a couple of years ago heard some of their Bruckner series.
Not a very good orchestra.


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## Kjetil Heggelund

Beethoven is endless! I finished my little project of 8 different no. 7 & 8 this weekend. I think I liked them all. Got a bit excited over Norrington to my surprise, probably because it was live, and very excited to discover Michael Gielen, mostly because I have listened to contemporary music without knowing he led the orchestra. I like my Rattle set with BPO from 2016 too


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## Kjetil Heggelund

mparta said:


> And I don't know about the recordings but years ago I heard Barenboim (not often to my taste) play the series at Carnegie hall with the Staatskapelle. And then a couple of years ago heard some of their Bruckner series.
> Not a very good orchestra.


"Your unpopular opinion" thread stuff there


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## Mozart123

Out of the limited range I have heard, Barenboim with Staatskapelle Berlin is the has the richest sound. If you're unsure, I would suggest listening and comparing track samples from the iTunes store or from Presto Music website.


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