# Obscure Classical Music



## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

Examples:

Assorted Piano Works (Schoenberg)
The Rite of Spring (Stravinsky)
Assorted Piano Works (Debussy)
Bolero (Ravel)
La Mer (Debussy)
Pelleas et Melisande (Debussy)
Pictures at an Exhibition (Mussorgsky)


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

I'm looking for other suggestions based on that list of what I find to be obscure.


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## laurie (Jan 12, 2017)

^^^
I'm confused .... 'obscure'?


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

laurie said:


> ^^^
> I'm confused .... 'obscure'?


_Obscure_ - not clear to the understanding; hard to perceive:


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## DaveM (Jun 29, 2015)

Captainnumber36 said:


> _Obscure_ - not clear to the understanding; hard to perceive:


Is there something about those works that have been a mystery?


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

DaveM said:


> Is there something about those works that have been a mystery?


I find them to be more abstract making them difficult to perceive, yet still highly enjoyable.


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## DaveM (Jun 29, 2015)

Captainnumber36 said:


> I find them to be more abstract making them difficult to perceive, yet still highly enjoyable.


What is abstract about the Ode to Joy? It has been one of the most accessible and easy to perceive works ever written which is why it appears all the time in concerts and at times of various international distresses eg. 9/11.


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## fluteman (Dec 7, 2015)

Captainnumber36 said:


> Examples:
> 
> Ode to Joy (Beethoven)
> Assorted Piano Works (Schoenberg)
> ...


Excellent examples, I know just what you mean. You inspire me to plunge into the selva oscura in the manner of John Cage and Terry Reilly:

Joy Mer Assorted Assorted Melisande an Exhibition of Spring Piano Piano to Ode Bolero Works La Works Pelleas at A Rite Pictures et (Debussy) (Debussy) (Debussy) (Mussorgsky) gsky) sky) (Beet (Beet (Beet (Strav (Rav (De oven) g) ussy) (Muss y) tho (Scho rg) rg)

to Ode to Ode to Ode to Ode to Ode to Ode to Ode to Ode to Ode to Ode to Ode to Ode to Ode La!!!!!!!!!!


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

fluteman said:


> Excellent examples, I know just what you mean. You inspire me to plunge into the selva oscura in the manner of John Cage and Terry Reilly:
> 
> Joy Mer Assorted Assorted Melisande an Exhibition of Spring Piano Piano to Ode Bolero Works La Works Pelleas at A Rite Pictures et (Debussy) (Debussy) (Debussy) (Mussorgsky) gsky) sky) (Beet (Beet (Beet (Strav (Rav (De oven) g) ussy) (Muss y) tho (Scho rg) rg)
> 
> to Ode to Ode to Ode to Ode to Ode to Ode to Ode to Ode to Ode to Ode to Ode to Ode to Ode La!!!!!!!!!!


I think you just composed a work that fits the bill with this post!


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

DaveM said:


> What is abstract about the Ode to Joy? It has been one of the most accessible and easy to perceive works ever written which is why it appears all the time in concerts and at times of various international distresses eg. 9/11.


It's just how I hear it in my brain; I find it the most abstract symphony Beethoven composed. I also love most of the 6th, but there are some movements that feel like straightforward music to me.

I guess that's what it is I'm looking for, works that feel more like expression than music. Typically when this occurs, I hear it as being more abstract.


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## EddieRUKiddingVarese (Jan 8, 2013)

Maybe well known obtuse is the meaning?


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

EddieRUKiddingVarese said:


> Maybe well known obtuse is the meaning?


It doesn't have to be well known, and obtuse doesn't sound correct.


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## Guest (Aug 9, 2018)

I can only think of music to avoid: minimalist compositions where the point of the compositions are that they play out a process, unchanging.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

Bolero, and Pictures don't sound abstract in the least to my ears. Not even at first listening as a teenager. Debussy, Schoenberg, and Stravinsky a little more at first.

Bartok's piano concertos and string quartets I found rather abstruse until after many listening sessions.


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## Merl (Jul 28, 2016)

I dont find any of these pieces 'obscure'. Its a bit like someone telling me that 'Stairway to Heaven' is obscure. Im confused. I get the 'abstract' idea with a couple of them but im still not quite sure what you mean, mate. Hey, what do I know? I'm a Mancunian.


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## Fredx2098 (Jun 24, 2018)

Have you listened to Brahms, maybe the Piano Concerto No. 1? It sounds like you want something normal but highly emotional, because I bet you know what I'd recommend as something mysterious and abstract.


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## Merl (Jul 28, 2016)

Fredx2098 said:


> Have you listened to Brahms, maybe the Piano Concerto No. 1? It sounds like you want something normal but highly emotional, because I bet you know what I'd recommend as something mysterious and abstract.


Would that be Feldman, by any chance, Fredx?


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

Merl said:


> I dont find any of these pieces 'obscure'. Its a bit like someone telling me that 'Stairway to Heaven' is obscure. Im confused.


The OP used the wrong adjective. He means abstract or abstruse. As in hard to perceive.


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

Fredx2098 said:


> Have you listened to Brahms, maybe the Piano Concerto No. 1? It sounds like you want something normal but highly emotional, because I bet you know what I'd recommend as something mysterious and abstract.


You're getting warmer. Highly emotive, and extremely vivid.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

starthrower said:


> The OP used the wrong adjective. He means abstract or abstruse. As in hard to perceive.


Another possibility is recondite. "It's rather difficult to penetrate the meaning of recondite. Fitting, because it's an adjective that basically means hard for the average mind to understand."


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## Fredx2098 (Jun 24, 2018)

How about Ravel's Gaspard de la Nuit?


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

KenOC said:


> Another possibility is recondite. "It's rather difficult to penetrate the meaning of recondite. Fitting, because it's an adjective that basically means hard for the average mind to understand."


I think Vivid is the correct term. I like it to feel extremely expressive and like a painting!


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

Fredx2098 said:


> How about Ravel's Gaspard de la Nuit?


I am stepping out for a bit, but I'll listen when I return. I was enjoying the Brahms Piano Concerto! You figured me out, Fred, thanks!


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

I think the three words are:

Sophisticated. Vivid. Emotive.

That describes my taste in art!


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

Fredx2098 said:


> How about Ravel's Gaspard de la Nuit?


Oh man, that's a great piece! I like Pogorelich on piano.


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## EddieRUKiddingVarese (Jan 8, 2013)

starthrower said:


> The OP used the wrong adjective. He means abstract or abstruse. As in hard to perceive.


I still like Obtuse, particularly with Stairway to Heaven


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

EddieRUKiddingVarese said:


> I still like Obtuse, particularly with Stairway to Heaven


_Obtuse_ - not quick or alert in perception, feeling, or intellect; not sensitive or observant; dull.

That doesn't sound like a positive way to describe art. Are you attempting to define my taste? I think I found the terms colorful, emotive and sophisticated to define my taste.


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

I enjoyed Vaughan William's Symphony 3 quite a bit, and am also loving his oboe concerto.


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## EddieRUKiddingVarese (Jan 8, 2013)

Captainnumber36 said:


> _Obtuse_ - not quick or alert in perception, feeling, or intellect; not sensitive or observant; dull.
> 
> That doesn't sound like a positive way to describe art. Are you attempting to define my taste? I think I found the terms colorful, emotive and sophisticated to define my taste.


_Obtuse_ -annoyingly insensitive or slow to understand."he wondered if the doctor was being deliberately obtuse"
My google must be slightly different to your google, maybe my google is Obtuse


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

Fredx2098 said:


> How about Ravel's Gaspard de la Nuit?


I love this!


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

EddieRUKiddingVarese said:


> _Obtuse_ -annoyingly insensitive or slow to understand."he wondered if the doctor was being deliberately obtuse"
> My google must be slightly different to your google, maybe my google is Obtuse


I saw that one too. 

btw, you're one of my favorite posters on this site, do I interpret you as not being an English speaker first correctly?

You come off as a foreigner.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Not only a foreigner, but upside down. Can't trust people like that.


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## EddieRUKiddingVarese (Jan 8, 2013)

Yeah, my first language is strine

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strine


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

I suppose "Ode To Joy" doesn't really fit my list, but it and the sixth are the closest symphonies of his to fitting my bill. There are portions of both that just floor me, and others that bore me.


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## Eusebius12 (Mar 22, 2010)

If you mean elusive, explore the works of Faure. The great chamber works reveal his stylistic evolution. The early piano quartets are quite accessible, if refined (but in a clearly romantic way). The late piano trio is the essence of late Faure. The solo piano pieces and art-songs (melodies) also delineate this development. Read the thread dedicated to Faure. 

If you enjoy Mussorgsky, you must sample his other masterworks, Boris Godunov, Khovanschina, Songs and Dances of Death, and Sunless. There is an elusiveness in some of these works that might be 'French', at least in the sense that there was an influence on French composers, possibly Faure but certainly Debussy. And Debussy himself might be considered quite elusive. His orchestral works and melodies are works of refinement of tonal colours that is very individual. The piano preludes estampes and images are must listen.


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## Eusebius12 (Mar 22, 2010)

Vincent d'Indy must be obscure, since although he is a great composer, modern interest in his work is almost nonexistent. What about Renaissance polyphony and Byzantine chant?






Not many posts about the music of Philippe Rogier, so he must be obscure. But he is very great:


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## Fredx2098 (Jun 24, 2018)

You might like Jeremy Soule's music if you don't have a negative view of soundtracks.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Captainnumber36 said:


> Examples:
> 
> Assorted Piano Works (Schoenberg)
> The Rite of Spring (Stravinsky)
> ...


Marie Luise Hinrichs' transcriptions of Hildegard of Bingen and Pergolesi.


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## eugeneonagain (May 14, 2017)

I don't think you have used a helpful adjective. The common meaning of obscure means 'generally unknown' and even though it has a secondary meaning of hidden (obscured) comprehension this also implies deliberate clouding of the meaning of something to prevent comprehension.

If I say: 'the concert was cancelled for reasons that are still obscure.' It only means that the information hasn't been forthcoming, not that it's hard to understand once we have it.


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

I will take obscure as referring to music that doesn't cause mental pictures to form in my mind. The trouble is I can't think of any at the moment but it had happened from time to time.


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## Fredx2098 (Jun 24, 2018)

I think he settled on the words "Sophisticated. Vivid. Emotive." I'm not sure where "obscure" came from; it seems almost the opposite of those words.


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## derin684 (Feb 14, 2018)

I'm confused. How about Bruckner?


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## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

I would say in the OP list only Schoenberg and some of Debussy's piano works are more "obscure". I think the word better suited is ambiguous or enigmatic rather than obscure. Stockhausen, Carter comes to mind as the most enigmatic to me, completely unemotional. I find a lot of Boulez, Babbitt, Ligeti, Lachenmann and others way less. I would also say some of my own stuff is sort of enigmatic, and definitely way more obscure


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## Eusebius12 (Mar 22, 2010)

EddieRUKiddingVarese said:


> Yeah, my first language is strine
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strine


howyagoinmite ?


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## Oldhoosierdude (May 29, 2016)

Your use of the word obscure got me thinking. And you didn't misuse it at all, you utilized a context not often associated with the word. Much more challenging and interesting.

I find Mahler's Symphonies to be what you are looking for. Complex and colorful. Someone beat me to Ravel's Gaspard, wonderful work that I didn't much like until many listens.

Maybe try Bax, Tintagle

Britten, Variations on a Theme by Frank Bridge 
Janacek, Symphonietta. I find that I have to pay attention when listening to that one.


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

Oldhoosierdude said:


> Your use of the word obscure got me thinking. And you didn't misuse it at all, you utilized a context not often associated with the word. Much more challenging and interesting.
> 
> I find Mahler's Symphonies to be what you are looking for. Complex and colorful. Someone beat me to Ravel's Gaspard, wonderful work that I didn't much like until many listens.
> 
> ...


Thanks for getting it, I've heard Mahler before and didn't love it, but found it very interesting. He's just a bit long winded and unfocused imo.

I'll try some of your other offerings, though!


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

Oldhoosierdude said:


> Your use of the word obscure got me thinking. And you didn't misuse it at all, you utilized a context not often associated with the word. Much more challenging and interesting.
> 
> I find Mahler's Symphonies to be what you are looking for. Complex and colorful. Someone beat me to Ravel's Gaspard, wonderful work that I didn't much like until many listens.
> 
> ...


I love the Bax! It's beautiful.


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

Another way to put my taste can be found in the following three questions:

1. Does it feel like a world is created through the Art in question? (Vivid)
2. Does the Art in question feel high class to me? (Sophisticated)
3. Do I love the way the work makes me feel? (Emotive)


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## The Deacon (Jan 14, 2018)

Bax
Moeran
Piston
Griffes


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

Oldhoosierdude said:


> Your use of the word obscure got me thinking. And you didn't misuse it at all, you utilized a context not often associated with the word. Much more challenging and interesting.
> 
> I find Mahler's Symphonies to be what you are looking for. Complex and colorful. Someone beat me to Ravel's Gaspard, wonderful work that I didn't much like until many listens.
> 
> ...


I also enjoyed the Britten and Janacek. Thanks for the awesome recommendations!


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## Oldhoosierdude (May 29, 2016)

I know it almost classifies as Classical Pop, but Holst the Planets is a complex and thought provoking piece, beautifully structured. I never knew what went into the music until I watched the 2016 Proms Youth Orchestra on YouTube. I was fascinated at the complexity and layers. Of course that particular recording is played by teenagers and you can tell. But it made me appreciate some of the great recordings of this work that are out there.


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

Oldhoosierdude said:


> I know it almost classifies as Classical Pop, but Holst the Planets is a complex and thought provoking piece, beautifully structured. I never knew what went into the music until I watched the 2016 Proms Youth Orchestra on YouTube. I was fascinated at the complexity and layers. Of course that particular recording is played by teenagers and you can tell. But it made me appreciate some of the great recordings of this work that are out there.


I love The Planets by Holst, I think it's a great listen! . I own a copy of it.


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

And, I also take back my words against Mahler, I think his Symphonies are grand, I love all of them. I have a collection by Simon Rattle, and the recordings are splendid!


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## BachIsBest (Feb 17, 2018)

Captainnumber36 said:


> Another way to put my taste can be found in the following three questions:
> 
> 1. Does it feel like a world is created through the Art in question? (Vivid)
> 2. Does the Art in question feel high class to me? (Sophisticated)
> 3. Do I love the way the work makes me feel? (Emotive)


I really think you should give Mahler another go. He seems to fit those descriptors really well, try his 2nd symphony first it tends to be the most approachable and was the one I first liked.


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## arpeggio (Oct 4, 2012)

Just because I am not familiar with a work of a composer does it mean that he is obscure.

I am frequently learning of new, for me, composers or works who are from the 19th century.

One outstanding composer I have recently discovered is Zdenek Fibich. He was a contemporary Dvorak and Smetana.


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

arpeggio said:


> Just because I am not familiar with a work of a composer does it mean that he is obscure.
> 
> I am frequently learning of new, for me, composers or works who are from the 19th century.
> 
> One outstanding composer I have recently discovered is Zdenek Fibich. He was a contemporary Dvorak and Smetana.


You just had to bump this thread. Ha!


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## arpeggio (Oct 4, 2012)

^^^
If my presence is a problem, I will leave


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

arpeggio said:


> ^^^
> If my presence is a problem, I will leave


........................................


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## Oldhoosierdude (May 29, 2016)

Very different


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

I really enjoy Satie's solo piano cycle by Cristina Ariagno. It's airy and light by touch, yet spiritually deep in feel.


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