# Help with method: to learn a piece and handling frustration.



## Elaryad

Hello to those who are reading this,

I love and play stringed instruments.
I want to know what is the method you use to learn a piece. That's because I get bored easily. It's stupid and I hate myself because of it but it's true. It's hard to get motivated, to have a structure (like a schedule) and say "let's practice this part, first slow, then a little more fast, etc.". 

When I'm practicing technique, like scales, lots of scales, chords, speed exercises, etc., I love it and I have patience because it's a challenge and I get excited. But when it comes to learn a small piece, or a hard one that takes ages to play well (and even more ages to master) I get frustrated because I usually like the pieces I want to learn...

People, is this normal? What can I do about this?


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## david johnson

learn one tune that is really hard to master, then preform it. everything else will be easier.

dj


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## Elaryad

I would call it "the extreme solution"  I am not an advanced player, I would say "barely intermediate". Tunes that are "really hard to master" are not for me at this moment, but I could try a hard one (in my perspective, of course). But I think that doesn't solve my problem... developing a piece hard to master takes a process that I cannot endure because... I don't know, I don't have an explanation; and during my performances (not public performances) I'm always making mistakes. I think I freak out easily and then lose my nerve.


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## david johnson

you must play through the mistakes. once they happen they are over. miss a note and forget it, do not let it affect all following notes.

you may be surprised how many of the audience do not know it was a mistake.
if they could play it, they would be up there on stage doing so.  

dj


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## Guest

Yes, when you make a mistake you must keep going without missing a beat, don't pause or hesitate, reason is that when this happens and you are playing with others a slight hesitation will really foul every one up. Regarding learning new pieces it is self discipline take it bit by bit, slowly, repeatedly, untill it falls into place, once you have learned the piece then you practice it and build up to the proper speed. 
Do you have any means of recording yourself ? then play back and make a duet of it, this makes it more interesting.


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## YsayeOp.27#6

Elaryad said:


> I don't know, I don't have an explanation;


You just get bored. I sometimes go through the same and I don't think there's a remedy for that. The fact that you play works you like very much can aggravate the situation. The complex process of learning a piece can turn that beloved work into a clinical experience, and that's when you may feel the piece has lost its magic.
I say you should go ahead with the piece in question, keeping in mind the final objective is to achieve a successful execution, express what the composer had in mind when composing it.



> you must play through the mistakes. once they happen they are over. miss a note and forget it, do not let it affect all following notes.


An awful suggestion this one is. Elaryad, please disregard these remarks by David. You should never _run through_ the work, if there's a mistake and you recognize it you should work on it.



> once they happen they are over. miss a note and forget it, do not let it affect all following notes.


What about the piece you are playing? An error in execution may not be correlated with the immediate future notes you are about to deliver, but what about the composition as a whole? A musical work is not a cascade of subsequent notes, some of which you can omit or play wrong because you are capable of putting up with your mediocrity. There's an aesthetic production, and the composer's idea, which you should honour.



> you may be surprised how many of the audience do not know it was a mistake.
> if they could play it, they would be up there on stage doing so.


That's nonsense. A few decades ago, the most effective way to agglomerate famous pianists was to organize a solo concert of Arturo Benedetti Michelangeli (you would then get the highest measure of pianists per square foot, in that theatre).

Martha Argerich attended the famous Horowitz comeback concerts (in which he would play Rach3), and she was seated next to... Nelson Freire.

I know Elaryad is not to be compared with high profile international artists, but the merits of your words, David, are questionable.


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## Elaryad

*YsayeOp.27#6*, I understand your opinion about missing notes, I think it happens and it's not good. Rostropovich had missed notes and improvised because he played by memory. But no, that's not a thing you go through passively, you've got work on your mistakes. I know perfection is a very difficult thing to achieve but professional musicians sometimes have that bitter experience once in a while 
You told about "complex process of learning a piece". I don't see anyone saying that this process it's complex and sometimes frustrating, and you're so right. I take lots of time learning a piece, and sometimes I abandon it.

*Andante*, I have means of recording myself, but as I told, I miss notes during my playing. It's not a nice thing to listen to. I just use the recording system when I want to record something I composed for future reference. But I make mistakes in my own works too. 
:angry:


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## david johnson

YsayeOp.27#6:

hehehe...i see we disagree.
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once they happen they are over. miss a note and forget it, do not let it affect all following notes. -

'What about the piece you are playing? An error in execution may not be correlated with the immediate future notes you are about to deliver, but what about the composition as a whole? A musical work is not a cascade of subsequent notes, some of which you can omit or play wrong because you are capable of putting up with your mediocrity. There's an aesthetic production, and the composer's idea, which you should honour.'

if you want to let the note you miss in measure 7 ruin your playing for the remainder of a 20 minute piece, go ahead.
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you may be surprised how many of the audience do not know it was a mistake.
if they could play it, they would be up there on stage doing so.

'That's nonsense. A few decades ago, the most effective way to agglomerate famous pianists was to organize a solo concert of Arturo Benedetti Michelangeli (you would then get the highest measure of pianists per square foot, in that theatre).'

what i said is not nonsensical one bit, and you should know better.
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you must play through the mistakes. once they happen they are over. miss a note and forget it, do not let it affect all following notes.

'An awful suggestion this one is. Elaryad, please disregard these remarks by David. You should never run through the work, if there's a mistake and you recognize it you should work on it.'

you do not know the difference in playing through a mistake and just running through a piece, which you decided to claim i advocate.
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'but the merits of your words, David, are questionable.'

you do NOT know whereof you speak 

now our new member has two opinions to consider. best of luck, elaryad!

dj


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## Elaryad

1. A performer makes one mistake on a specific measure during a public performance. After that, he will need to continue and hope it doesn't happen again.
2. During a rehearsal if the performer misses a note, he should stop and play everything again to observe if it happens again, why did it happen, and fix it.

I think you're talking about different things here. The mistakes during a performance and the mistakes during study and practice.


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## YsayeOp.27#6

Elaryad said:


> *Andante*, I have means of recording myself, but as I told, I miss notes during my playing. It's not a nice thing to listen to.


Since you already have the recording device, I say you should use it more often. If not for the omitted notes, for the possible mistakes on expression and dynamics: it's easy for you to distinguish, when playing, how fingering mistakes drove you to miss notes; but how you do with the expressive part of the work is a bit harder. If you have the chance to listen to yourself through recordings you may realize that what you think you are playing (or, what you have the impression to be listening to, when playing) is not what effectively comes out from the action of your fingers. Is as if during the performance or study of a work, you listen to the sound *you expect to produce* (which is in only in your head) and not the real deal. This happens to a lot of students, and it's completely normal: we are just learning, but we have to deal with a lot of things at the same time: reading the notes, the indications on expression and fingerings, thinking in what is about to come, and listening to ourselves.


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## YsayeOp.27#6

david johnson said:


> what i said is not nonsensical one bit, and you should know better.


Yes, it is. You are supposing the audience is formed by ignorants, and you expect Elaryad to rely on that assumption so that he can remain calm after committing mistakes. It's not about the skills of listeners to recognize when something went wrong. It's about your ability, as a musician, to express what the composer wrote, in a meaningful way.
Following this line of thought, if you play alone at home you are free to turn the piece in whatever blasphemy you want, just because nobody is listening.
You should always aspire to maximum quality, even if you are playing for granma and a bunch of awful geronto-aunts.


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## YsayeOp.27#6

Elaryad said:


> I think you're talking about different things here. The mistakes during a performance and the mistakes during study and practice.


Right. From your initial post it follows your questions are about studying, not performing. And my answers were composed with that in mind. I can't say the same about David's.


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## Guest

Gilels was at a recording studio in the days when a movement was recorded all in one hit, at the completion of a particular movement the recording director told him that he had played a couple of wrong notes and asked if he would mind recording it again to which Gilels answered " Of course if you want, but it wont be so nice" I think the point here is that a wrong note is of secondary importance to the performance as a whole.

The main thing to do when you have made a mistake _even when practising_ is to keep going if you get into the habit of stopping it is a very hard habit to break, this is one of the first things my Teacher insisted upon.
When the piece is finished that is the time to back and correct your mistake, also mistakes are frustrating we all make them but it is most satisfying when you eventually get it right.


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## david johnson

YsayeOp.27#6 said:


> Yes, it is. You are supposing the audience is formed by ignorants, and you expect Elaryad to rely on that assumption so that he can remain calm after committing mistakes. It's not about the skills of listeners to recognize when something went wrong. It's about your ability, as a musician, to express what the composer wrote, in a meaningful way.
> Following this line of thought, if you play alone at home you are free to turn the piece in whatever blasphemy you want, just because nobody is listening.
> You should always aspire to maximum quality, even if you are playing for granma and a bunch of awful geronto-aunts.


horsefeathers, y.
you're spinning other's comments like a political analyst on tv.

dj


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## david johnson

Elaryad said:


> 1. A performer makes one mistake on a specific measure during a public performance. After that, he will need to continue and hope it doesn't happen again.
> 2. During a rehearsal if the performer misses a note, he should stop and play everything again to observe if it happens again, why did it happen, and fix it.
> 
> I think you're talking about different things here. The mistakes during a performance and the mistakes during study and practice.


yes.
always perform as much as possible, even in the practice room.
make the technical exercises as musical as possible.

dj


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## Elaryad

I was wondering about one thing that makes me spend even more time learning something. I spend a considerable amount of time reading the score and identifying the note on my instrument... Any exercises to fix this?


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## Guest

Elaryad said:


> I was wondering about one thing that makes me spend even more time learning something. I spend a considerable amount of time reading the score and identifying the note on my instrument... Any exercises to fix this?


If you are at the stage of reading from manuscript you should be hitting the notes automatically, if not then a lot more basic study is required 
that is assuming you do not mean alternative/complicated fingering


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## Mr. Terrible

Speed comes after accuracy.
Play through the piece splitting it up in to manageable sections and play them slowly enough that you can play them accurately.
Once you are comfortable with schmoozing through the piece slowly but accurately, start building speed till you hit performance speed.
Any fool can play fast, badly.
If you find "slow" to be boring and frustrating still, concentrate on your note production as well.
Many relative beginners overlook getting it to sound nice whilst striving to make it sound right.
a slow scale on a violin played with a little panache becomes a much more enjoyable exercise than scraping doggedly up and down the notes correectly but with frustration showing in every bar.
Especially for your family or other captive audience.


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## Elaryad

Thank you very much for your advice. You really helped. Cheers


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