# Elgar & Mahler



## Avey (Mar 5, 2013)

Admittedly, this thread is entirely spontaneous--that is, I have no evidence of relevance in this inquiry, and I have no immediate reason to ask this. Nonetheless:

Are there any aural, technical, anecdotal, or otherwise tangential connections between *Elgar* and *Mahler*? Generally, do you _subjectively_ hear similarities or influences? _Objectively_, are there any anecdotes or precise evidence that Elgar, particularly, heard Mahler's music and was in some way influenced by the latter's tendencies?

I have a number of scattered thoughts and comments on the matter, but I will spare my opinion until hearing from you all.


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## Ian Moore (Jun 28, 2014)

Elgar stuck to the German tradition far more than Mahler.


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## Avey (Mar 5, 2013)

Interesting. Fair.

Though, admittedly, Elgar has become quintessential _English_ to me. He and Vaughn-Williams define the English sound. But technically or structurally, that is likely no different than the German tradition. But stylistically -- i.e., the emotive tendencies -- I must say are wholly unique to the region.

But I am no musicologist.


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

Elgar, whichever symphony of his one is perhaps considered 'the most abstract and modern sounding for its time,' sounded more like imitation Richard Strauss to me than anything else. I regret not recalling which symphony that was to name it accurately, but I at the time 'surprised it was by Elgar,' and I think it struck me as, and is, atypical of all the other music of his one hears most often.

Other than that, sorry, Elgar fits in that school of English music given its dreadful yet funny appellation coined (I think) by Elisabeth Luytens, i.e. that British "Cow-pat school" of music.

I find nothing, at all, in the sound, ethos, or harmonic vocabulary of Elgar's _even remotely_ akin to Mahler.


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## tdc (Jan 17, 2011)

They both wrote at times some big and harmonically rich music, that is about where the similarities end.


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## violadude (May 2, 2011)

I would say there is not much similarity as well. Elgar's more "Germanic" pieces tend to sound a bit more like Strauss or Brahms than Mahler.


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## Richannes Wrahms (Jan 6, 2014)

Mahler took band music, ridiculed and twisted it into madness. Elgar took band music and called it 'home'. Otherwise, Elgar (mainly in his symphonies) is more prone to imitate Strauss' orchestration, tonal clashes and some of Brahms's characteristic mannerisms. The result being of a rather elephantine grace. I think he could have done better, but well, what he did is what we have. Other works by Elgar, like the concertos, lean more to the Russian orchestral style. In contrast, Mahler's 5th has that peculiar Tchaikovskian bit in it.


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## Polyphemus (Nov 2, 2011)

I think perhaps that the 'elephantine grace' referred to is a nod to the empire's far flung regions. Elgar was the Empires composer for both church and state and his symphonies in particular do not bear comparison with those of Mahler. If a British symphonic champion is required then R.V.W. is, to my mind undisputed champion. 
Mahler on the other hand composed for the world and indeed to paraphrase himself he did indeed compose the world (third symphony).


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

I find them to be completely different as they should be from two different worlds.

I love Elgar's Violin Concerto and the Mahler Symphonies, but more different music from these two composers, there cannot be.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Extremely different, yes - too different in temperament to have had any real use for each other's music. But I do find with both of them that listening to their music makes me feel close to them as human beings, almost confided in, in ways I don't feel with most other composers. I sometimes feel, not as if I know them (that would be presumptuous and ask too much of music), but perhaps as if they are willing to be, or even needful of being, known, and this can be very moving. This is admittedly a personal reaction that others may not share; it might be particularly surprising with regard to Elgar, whom we often think of as embodying a more generalized English, or even specifically Edwardian, sensibility. But I don't see how anyone can listen to the slow movement of his first symphony, or to his cello concerto (just to pick two well-known and musically fine examples), and not sense a great personal presence and an almost painful openness. Elgar's personality is quite different from Mahler's, but in the emotional truthfulness of their art, if in no other way, they were similar.


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## mtmailey (Oct 21, 2011)

I have heard all ELGAR'S symphonies,5 marches , 3 concertos & overtures.Elgar has better skills than MAHLER.


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## dgee (Sep 26, 2013)

mtmailey said:


> I have heard all ELGAR'S symphonies,5 marches , 3 concertos & overtures.Elgar has better skills than MAHLER.


Who had better nun-chuck skills?


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## DiesIraeCX (Jul 21, 2014)

mtmailey said:


> I have heard all ELGAR'S symphonies,5 marches , 3 concertos & overtures.Elgar has better skills than MAHLER.


That is quite a claim. I recommend that before we go further, we answer dgee's question first. Mahler absolutely and unequivocally had better nun-chuck skills... Your move.


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## StlukesguildOhio (Dec 25, 2006)

I'd take Mahler as the greater composer in a heartbeat. His _Das Lied von der Erde_ ranks among the greatest works of the 20th century IMO. I would add the 2nd, 4th... and several other symphonies and song cycles to any list of the finest music of the last century. I have enjoyed Elgar's big choral works and of course the Cello Concerto... but quite honestly I cannot think of a single work by him that I could not go without ever hearing again if need be.

I cannot say the same of Mahler.


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## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

dgee said:


> Who had better nun-chuck skills?







. . . _or_ Rex-Kwon-Do skills.


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## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

Other than the extremely nebulous connection in that they occasionally composed some music that was triggered by certain unhappy situations in their private lives (who didn't?) and both perhaps considered themselves as having some kind of 'outsider' status in their respective countries (they weren't alone there, either), I can't detect any common ground between Elgar and Mahler at all.


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## senza sordino (Oct 20, 2013)

Other than living at the same time on the same continent I can't see much similarity between Mahler and Elgar. I'd make the claim that Mahler wrote better symphonies than Elgar, and Elgar wrote better concerti than Mahler.


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## Guest (Sep 30, 2014)

Well, here's an opinion on the subject...



> Elgar, on the other hand while not showing any evidence of being influenced by Mahler - still at the time virtually unknown in England - was a stalwart champion of Richard Strauss. It was after all Strauss who hailed Elgar as the "first English progressive composer".


http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2007/May07/Elgar2_Butterworth.htm

According to a footnote in Wiki's Elgar page, "Elgar did not know Mahler's works."


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## Andolink (Oct 29, 2012)

I've been a Mahlerite for well over 40 years (since I was 14) but I would not deny Elgar his place in the pantheon of the truly great masters. His *string quartet* is my favorite but the *piano quintet*, the *violin sonata* the *cello concerto* and the *2nd symphony* are all amazing pieces of music, right up there with the best of Mahler.


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## mikey (Nov 26, 2013)

I have actually never linked Elgar to Strauss and can't really see the connection aside from perhaps the virtuosic orchestral writing - harmonically or melodically I don't really see a link.
Neither can I match him to Mahler, aside from the (imho) profoundness in the slow movts of the symphonies and cello concerto. However they are both entirely personal.


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## Ian Moore (Jun 28, 2014)

mtmailey said:


> I have heard all ELGAR'S symphonies,5 marches , 3 concertos & overtures.Elgar has better skills than MAHLER.


Have you heard anything by Mahler?


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

The only connection I can find is their last names both end in "R".


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## StlukesguildOhio (Dec 25, 2006)

Currently I'm listening to Barbirolli's recordings of Elgar. Barbirolli also recorded Mahler... a couple of my favorite recordings of Mahler to be more precise. In spite of this... I can't say I hear much... any... link between Mahler and Elgar.


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## mtmailey (Oct 21, 2011)

BRUCE LEE has better nunchuck skills.


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