# Mahler



## Violapower

I have realized that I've never heard any works of Mahler. What are some of his best works to get me started?


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## World Violist

Symphonies 1, 2, and 6 were my introductions. A part of the 1st that would be of importance to you: one of the most vicious viola parts I've ever heard. It's amazing; and I got to perform that movement once. Every recording I've heard, I always listen for that one part, and if it isn't good I'm usually not satisfied with the movement.

As far as recordings go, Bernstein recorded a cycle with the NYPO that's very good, and Tennstedt did a great one with the LSO, I think. And then there's Chailly/Concertgebouw, Kubelik, etc. etc. Don't get addicted to Mahler; it took me more than a year to get off of that addiction.


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## JTech82

I'll just echo what World Violinist has said about the Bernstein with the NYPO being very good.

I'm still relatively new to Mahler myself, so I can't comment much about his music other than I've heard Symphony No. 2 by Kubelik the other day that was quite good, but not as good as the Bernstein.

I'm going to have to get the Chailly and Tennstedt readings too. I've good things about them.


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## SamGuss

I'd reccomend 1, 2 or 5.


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## Sid James

I think Symphonies Nos. 1, 4 & 5 are good introductions because they are short compared to most of the other symphonies. In particular, No. 4 is very approachable and light, although it does have a profound slow movement and also a soprano solo at the end which is a delight. Symphony No. 5 is also good, particularly the famous _Adagietto_ movement.


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## Rachovsky

World Violist said:


> As far as recordings go, Bernstein recorded a cycle with the NYPO that's very good, and Tennstedt did a great one with the LSO, I think. And then there's Chailly/Concertgebouw, Kubelik, etc. etc. Don't get addicted to Mahler; it took me more than a year to get off of that addiction.


I think I'm still addicted, sadly. Everything seems to pale in comparison to his symphonies...

I would definitely start out with his earlier symphonies. Hold off on his 3rd, 7th, 8th, 9th, and 10th until you've been acquainted with the others, as they may become tedious. The 1st and 5th seem the most accessible to me. My favorite's the 2nd though so I'd listen to it first.


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## shsherm

Starting at the beginning is not a bad strategy. The "Titan" (1st) is not a bad way to approach the Mahler symphonies.


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## xJuanx

Definetely hear the first symphony _Titan_, and maybe some orchestal lieder, like _Lieder eines farhenden Gesellen_.


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## theclassicalguy

I would recommend #4 to start with. It's beautiful and more along the lines of a 'classical' symphony. I recommend Michael Tilson Thomas' recording with the San Francisco Symphony. It's gorgeous.

If you really want to try and see Mahler's 'bigger' style, go ahead and get the 8th Symphony 'Symphony of a Thousand'. While it can be very overwhelming music, there are some very intimate moments, true ensemble work. It was one of the few successes Mahler had in his own lifetime and is a true masterpiece. I recommend Solti's famous recording.


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## handlebar

Mahler has been an idol to me for over 20 years now. I own 10 sets and hundreds of individual cd's.
If i had to be pressed for a set recommendation, it would be a toss up between the Bernstein and the MTT.
My favourite symphonies are the 2nd,3rd,6th,7th and 9th.

One of the most sublime moments in my life was rolling to Jihlava in the Czech republic and listening to the M3 by Chailly. Truly a delightful recording. Also took in the Boulez M2 in Vienna.

Don't get me started on this man and his oeuvre. I might be stuck on it ALL YEAR!!

Jim


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## bongos

hi all , I thought you might like to know that last Saturday night I experienced Mahler Symphony 3 performed by New Zealand Symphony orchestra conducted by the current musical director ,a young Finn, Pietari Inkinen , at the Auckland Town Hall ..So many different moods , tempos , themes ,many seem unrelated , but thats Mahler I guess. The orchestra had extra double basses about 7 , heaps of percussion ,extra horns about 9 .It was a marathon but I enjoyed it .


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## bongos

oh, and a chorus of at least 50


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## handlebar

bongos said:


> oh, and a chorus of at least 50


50 is good but 100 even better!! 

Jim


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## bongos

hi Handlebar and other Mahler enthusiasts , I have had a Mahler day listening to 15 recordings of Mahler Symphony 4 .Once again , my taste and opinion only ,but 4 recordings stand way out from the others that I have heard. If anyone asks I will list them


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## World Violist

bongos said:


> hi Handlebar and other Mahler enthusiasts , I have had a Mahler day listening to 15 recordings of Mahler Symphony 4 .Once again , my taste and opinion only ,but 4 recordings stand way out from the others that I have heard. If anyone asks I will list them


I would like to see this list. I understand Mahler's 4th the second least of the lot (no. 7 tops them all in this regard).


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## Lisztfreak

bongos said:


> I have had a Mahler day listening to 15 recordings of Mahler Symphony 4 .


Jesus, I can't listen to a composition twice in a row, let alone all day.


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## handlebar

Mahler is an exception to that rule for me. I would normally agree but his works have such meaning and power,such significance that I will never tire of surrounding my ears with said delicious orchestration.

For what it is worth, my favourite M4 recordings are the Tilson Thomas, the Zander and the Mengleberg 1939 recording.

Jim


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## bongos

hi World violist here we go then 
Kubelik/ Bavarian Radio Symphony Orchestra
Solti/Chicago SO on the DECCA 2 CD Mahler 4 and 5
Tennstedt/London Philharmonic (recorded at the Kingsway theatre, London)
Klemperer/New Philharmonia 
these can all be heard at Passionato online in good long previews in all movements


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## bongos

hi Lisztfreak, no I did not listen to all 15 Mahler 4 s in full length , just the good high quality previews of all movements at Passionato


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## JTech82

My enthusiasm for Mahler is not as great as many posters here, but I own quite a lot of by him. I find his Symphony No. 2 "Resurrection" the most satisfying, but I also enjoy his 7th and 9th quite a lot.

There are many great Mahler conductors. Klaus Tennstedt, Leonard Bernstein, Simon Rattle, Rafael Kubelik, and Riccardo Chailly. All of these conductors give good readings of Mahler. You would be hard pressed to find better conductors than these.

My Dad is actually the Mahler man in the family. My tastes are generally more along the lines of Ravel, Stravinsky, Sibelius, Nielsen, Hindemith, Debussy, Respighi, Delius, Grieg, Richard Strauss, etc. I like a lot of color and texture in a piece of music. Mahler's symphonies are great, but I tire of them rather quickly.


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## World Violist

JTech82 said:


> There are many great Mahler conductors. Klaus Tennstedt, Leonard Bernstein, Simon Rattle, Rafael Kubelik, and Riccardo Chailly. All of these conductors give good readings of Mahler. You would be hard pressed to find better conductors than these.
> 
> My Dad is actually the Mahler man in the family. My tastes are generally more along the lines of Ravel, Stravinsky, Sibelius, Nielsen, Hindemith, Debussy, Respighi, Delius, Grieg, Richard Strauss, etc. I like a lot of color and texture in a piece of music. Mahler's symphonies are great, but I tire of them rather quickly.


I would add to your list of conductors Seiji Ozawa and Michael Tilson Thomas, along with Mengelberg (he only recorded the 4th and Adagietto, but one still senses greatness), Bruno Walter, and Dmitri Mitropoulos. John Barbirolli also, a little behind.


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## handlebar

The term "great Mahler conductor" to me really has to mark one of special importance. The last 30 years have produced almost every conductor of note performing at least one Mahler work. That being said, I feel a conductor needs a great orchestra to achieve that special recording.
I listed the men that sprung to mind. I would add to what i listed earlier:
Haitink,Chailly,Kubelik,Bernstein,Walter (of course)Klemperer and Boulez.

The 4th can be an easy nut to crack with a good orchestra and even better vocalist. The 3rd movement especially has it's charms and seems to make believers of those who think Mahler a quack composer. It is a very approachable work.

I wish Fürtwangler had recorded all of the symphonies. He did so well with Bruckner that I think his Mahler would have been wonderful! Of course, he did record Mahler in the Lieder,which with Dieskau are marvelous!!
And from all accounts, his Mahler in concert was indeed fine.


Jim


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## EarlyCuyler

I love Mahler, but would like to forget the 4th Symphony ever happened. Just to me, the complete antithesis of real Mahler. I would put Benjamin Zander in the category of great Mahler conductors. As well as Jesus Lopez-Cobos, Zubin Mehta, Pierre Boulez, Georg Solti and Claudio Abbado. Anyone who puts Gilbert Kaplan in that group should be flogged. I witnessed one of his performances in Cincinnati earlier this season, of 2, and the orchestra really saved his *** that Saturday night. He's too "hand happy" on the podium, especially during the big sections near the end. He kept way too tight a reign on the brass. I'm really looking forward to seeing it in Indianapolis next season.


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## handlebar

While I agree that Kaplan's recordings of the M2 were well done (both of them), he is NOT a great Mahlerian. I own both the M2's he recorded and they are well done but I chalk that success up to the orchestra, not Kaplan. He is a very intelligent man though and knows his music well.

Jim


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## World Violist

EarlyCuyler said:


> I love Mahler, but would like to forget the 4th Symphony ever happened. Just to me, the complete antithesis of real Mahler. I would put Benjamin Zander in the category of great Mahler conductors. As well as Jesus Lopez-Cobos, Zubin Mehta, Pierre Boulez, Georg Solti and Claudio Abbado. Anyone who puts Gilbert Kaplan in that group should be flogged. I witnessed one of his performances in Cincinnati earlier this season, of 2, and the orchestra really saved his *** that Saturday night. He's too "hand happy" on the podium, especially during the big sections near the end. He kept way too tight a reign on the brass. I'm really looking forward to seeing it in Indianapolis next season.


I might have been there that same night. I agree with you, but the orchestra wasn't doing too well either. He was absurdly hard to follow, he had utterly no emotion... the thing I've most often said of this performance is that it should have been made a guide on how NOT to conduct Mahler. Just horrible. The end was not emotional in any way, only loud.


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## EarlyCuyler

World Violist said:


> I might have been there that same night. I agree with you, but the orchestra wasn't doing too well either. He was absurdly hard to follow, he had utterly no emotion... the thing I've most often said of this performance is that it should have been made a guide on how NOT to conduct Mahler. Just horrible. The end was not emotional in any way, only loud.


I didn't think the end was loud enough. I talked with some friends that play in the orchestra afterwards, and they weren't real happy with him. But they said it was better than the Friday performance. Never trust a guy that only conducts one piece. I would love to hear Ben Zander perform it with Cincinnati, his performance in Akron last year was astounding.


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## World Violist

EarlyCuyler said:


> I didn't think the end was loud enough. I talked with some friends that play in the orchestra afterwards, and they weren't real happy with him. But they said it was better than the Friday performance. Never trust a guy that only conducts one piece. I would love to hear Ben Zander perform it with Cincinnati, his performance in Akron last year was astounding.


Well, considering that the deep bells drowned the whole orchestra, I suppose it sounded rather loud to me...

I would love to see Benjamin Zander in that symphony. I'd also love to see Paavo Jarvi conduct it; he did Mahler 1 earlier in the year--probably one of my favorite performances, recordings notwithstanding (and I've heard my fair share).


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## bongos

*thats enough Mahler for 1 day *

hi all ive had a Mahler 5 day today 
Ive heard the following 
Dudamel/Bolivar Youth Orchestra Venezuela
Abbado /CSO 
Abbado/BPO live in Berlin
Sinopoli/Philharmonia
Haitink/RCO
Boulez/VPO
Solti/CSO (London Recording) (1970)London remastered
Solti CSO in Vienna (1990)Decca
Haitink BPO 
KARAJAN /BPO
Bernstein /VPO
Barbirolli /New Philharmonia 
Tennstedt/Lpo live at London Festival Hall
Saraste /Finnish Radio SO 
McKerras/Royal Liverpool


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## World Violist

bongos said:


> hi all ive had a Mahler 5 day today
> Ive heard the following
> Dudamel/Bolivar Youth Orchestra Venezuela
> Abbado /CSO
> Abbado/BPO live in Berlin
> Sinopoli/Philharmonia
> Haitink/RCO
> Boulez/VPO
> Solti/CSO (London Recording) (1970)London remastered
> Solti CSO in Vienna (1990)Decca
> Haitink BPO
> KARAJAN /BPO
> Bernstein /VPO
> Barbirolli /New Philharmonia
> Tennstedt/Lpo live at London Festival Hall
> Saraste /Finnish Radio SO
> McKerras/Royal Liverpool


Um... *cough cough*... yes, I think that's a bit MORE than enough mahler for one day. Listening to the cycle in one day wears me out as it is...


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## bongos

hi World Violist , I do hope this addiction dies wears off soon .haha.I listen to the longish 320kbps previews on Passionato. Im not a musician other than a singer, myself , so I cannot tell a poor performance that a true critic would pick up on ,but I have become addicted to the differences between recordings .I can tell the fast and slow conducting but it is really down to the sounds I like and the impact the recording has on me .In a bunch like this , it tends to narrow down to about 4 that i like above the others


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## Lisztfreak

I'd just like to say how much emotion there is in the last movement of the 9th... For those who know Lord of the Rings, I'd say the ending of the movement is just like then when the ship with Elrond, Frodo and the others finally disappears beyond the horizon and passes through a silver curtain of rain.
Or I imagine old Mahler walking down a country lane into a late afternoon. 

In any case, very, very melancholy and the whole movement is like a long good-bye that never seems to end.


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## handlebar

Lisztfreak said:


> In any case, very, very melancholy and the whole movement is like a long good-bye that never seems to end.


That's exactly why I consider the M9 as Mahler's farewell. Granted the adagio of the 10th is a work in itself. But the 9th is so cohesive as a whole that only Bruckner's 9th moves me as much as a "final" work. And that was not even finished.

Jim


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## Lisztfreak

Yes, the 9th is one of those works whose certain moments make me feel dizzy and grope for a cupboard or a chair. And it's not because they're nauseous, it's because there is almost too much emotion in them.


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## World Violist

Mahler's 9th is definitely one of my favorite symphonies ever written. The innovative structure, instrumentation (remember that he never once heard it!), and the searing emotion are enough to make anything less seem small and positively trite by comparison.

I agree, the last page of Mahler's 9th contains so much emotion. And it's not held back, either. It's a curious thing; one would think that a work like his 2nd, 6th, or 8th would be more outspoken in its emotions, being as loud and overwhelming as they are. But in the end of the 9th there's a sort of hush as though you're in the same room of somebody on his deathbed. It's really heartbreaking if you're in the mood.

The 10th almost seems to me an "epilogue" of sorts. The 9th was death--the 10th was what came after. And I don't know if I'll ever come to terms with it, if only because of the horrible orchestrations people come up with for it. Even Deryck Cooke's orchestration ruins the work, because the bits he orchestrated aren't on par with the bits Mahler himself got to orchestrate, creating a horrible sense of imbalance. As far as I'm concerned, I would either conduct only the first movement (the only truly and fully worthy of Mahler's genius) or none at all.


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## handlebar

World Violist said:


> The 10th almost seems to me an "epilogue" of sorts. The 9th was death--the 10th was what came after. And I don't know if I'll ever come to terms with it, if only because of the horrible orchestrations people come up with for it. Even Deryck Cooke's orchestration ruins the work, because the bits he orchestrated aren't on par with the bits Mahler himself got to orchestrate, creating a horrible sense of imbalance. As far as I'm concerned, I would either conduct only the first movement (the only truly and fully worthy of Mahler's genius) or none at all.


In parts I agree with this. The only extant written part of the 10th is in my opinion a perfect swansong. It follows the 9th beautifully and makes it's mark with perfection.
But I admit that the Rattle 10th (Cooke version) really makes a good case. It is so well done that that balance seems closer. Yet, you are correct in that it is not on the same level nor even close.
I remember when James Depriest was going to conduct the Oregon Symphony in Bruckner's 9th with a final movement composed by some fellow. He listened to it,rehearsed it and then just an hour before the concert could not convince himself that it was good enough. So he performed with only the three movements. What a glorious concert that was.

In some ways I feel that's how the 10th should be performed:Allegro/adagio only.

Jim


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## JTech82

Yes, much like you guys I consider Mahler's 9th to be one of the greatest achievements of any composer in history. I've heard a ton of Mahler 9ths: Rattle, Kubelik, Bernstein, Abbado, Karajan, and Boulez. I like them all.

I think, like World Violinist said, it's the innovative structure, the lyrical and melodic content, the orchestration, and the overall emotional impact that make it one of the most perfect symphonies I've ever heard.


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## Herzeleide

I too adore the ninth.

I also love 'Der Abschied', the last song from _Das Lied von der Erde_. Sublime!


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## Lisztfreak

Herzeleide said:


> I also love 'Der Abschied', the last song from _Das Lied von der Erde_. Sublime!


Yes. I'll never forget the final vocalises of the mezzo that ebb into the distance.


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## Bach

the ninth is really rather sprawling! About fifteen minutes worth of interesting musical content dragged on ad nauseam - organic growth.. blah, blah - The piece is altogether rather boring. It doesn't invigorate me and the teutonic chromaticism is a bit dull too.


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## JTech82

Bach said:


> the ninth is really rather sprawling! About fifteen minutes worth of interesting musical content dragged on ad nauseam - organic growth.. blah, blah - The piece is altogether rather boring. It doesn't invigorate me and the teutonic chromaticism is a bit dull too.


Mahler is a tough nut to crack that's for sure and I can certainly see why you would not like him.

I'm really a fan of smaller works or maybe I should say pieces I can wrap my head around a little better, but once you "get" Mahler you're hooked for life. There's no turning back.


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## Bach

You could well be right. Depending on my tutors next year, I'm sure my mentors and influences will change. My current composition teacher does not have a great deal of respect for Mahler, and I often find myself hearing his permeating opinion in the music..


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## Lisztfreak

Gee, your teacher is a true Frank Bridge.


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## Bach

My composition teacher is David Bevan (brilliant composer of, what I like to term 'sacred serialism'), but next year I will have Robert Saxton!


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## JTech82

Bach said:


> You could well be right. Depending on my tutors next year, I'm sure my mentors and influences will change. My current composition teacher does not have a great deal of respect for Mahler, and I often find myself hearing his permeating opinion in the music..


Yes, teachers have more of an influence on our opinion than we think. I had a teacher many years ago tell me that Debussy was garbage. Needless to say, I was quite disappointed and ended up dropping the class because of his insistent need to criticize Stravinsky and his innovations.

But to be honest, once you learn the basics of music theory and how to write music what more do you need a teacher for? There are books about arranging and composing available and there's your own imagination.


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## Lisztfreak

Perhaps I should have heard about the gentlemen, Bach? I envy you for having a composition teacher, anyways... few things in my life would I do with more gusto than compose, if I had the knowledge. 
Nonetheless, you say his opinion is very permeating - just like Bridge's was for Britten. Only Bridge loved Mahler's music.


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## handlebar

We know you hate Mahler. So why do you keep coming in on Mahler threads and voicing said thoughts??

Jim


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## JTech82

handlebar said:


> We know you hate Mahler. So why do you keep coming in on Mahler threads and voicing said thoughts??
> 
> Jim


Well Jim, I think in time Bach will learn to appreciate Mahler. It doesn't help that he has a teacher that dislikes him. I just think when he starts really digging into his music he will be singing a different tune altogether.


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## handlebar

JTech82 said:


> Well Jim, I think in time Bach will learn to appreciate Mahler. It doesn't help that he has a teacher that dislikes him. I just think when he starts really digging into his music he will be singing a different tune altogether.


One can hope. There are composers I disliked years ago that thrill me now.Such as Stravinsky. Perhaps there is hope for Herr Bach. 

Jim


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## JTech82

handlebar said:


> One can hope. There are composers I disliked years ago that thrill me now.Such as Stravinsky. Perhaps there is hope for Herr Bach.
> 
> Jim


I'm glad you dig Stravinsky now, Jim. You know Stravinsky was one of the first composers I got into. I just loved the way he composed his music. The orchestrations, the harmonies, and my goodness those rhythms!


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## Herzeleide

Bach said:


> the ninth is really rather sprawling! About fifteen minutes worth of interesting musical content dragged on ad nauseam - organic growth.. blah, blah - The piece is altogether rather boring. It doesn't invigorate me and the teutonic chromaticism is a bit dull too.


Hmm I think not.

Robin Holloway has called the first movement the most perfect thing Mahler ever did.

Mahler has a positively preternatural ability to sustain interest over long periods of time - the orchestration is virtuosic and highly variegated, the thematic development intense, thorough and ingenious - just listen to the counterpoint in the third movement! The last movement is probably Mahler's most inspired choral-like slow movement, with great affective import and an other-worldliness effected by the use of old modes. In fact - rather than being mere 'teutonic chromaticism' Mahler's musical language is invigorated by use of pentatonicism and other oriental effects _passim_. This is apparent from the very start of the opening movement. Maybe it escaped your ears?
The expressive and aesthetic area Mahler inhabits: one of naivety and joy on the the disturbing brink of breakdown - witness the way the music is distended by abrupt key changes in the second movement, causing a momentary kind of bitonality (many commentators have observed a kind of 'double tonality' in Mahler) - or the disquieting juxtapositions between the strident and beatific in the third movement - demonstrates an altogether more interesting and multifaceted compositional personality compared with someone like Strauss.


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## Bach

Do you study with Holloway? He's at Cambridge, isn't he?

I'll admit that I'm not immensely familiar with the music of Mahler. What I mean to say is, I've heard all ten symphonies, but I don't really _know_ them as such. The ninth sounds strangely orchestrated to me - almost chamber-like - 'block' orchestration for families of instrumental colour, and its reliance on chromatic inflexions, sequential writing, transposition, modal modification of figures, uncomplex development and growth and pivot relationships between different tonal centres I find rather wearing.

Strauss's music, on the other hand is always exquisitely crafted - like a swiss watch or a BMW - flashes of beautiful orchestral colour that I don't hear in Mahler's oppressive orchestration. He is always witty and exotic where Mahler is ponderous and pretentious.


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## Herzeleide

Bach said:


> Do you study with Holloway?


Nay; Hucbald. But yes Professor Holloway is at Cambridge.



Bach said:


> I'll admit that I'm not immensely familiar with the music of Mahler. What I mean to say is, I've heard all ten symphonies, but I don't really _know_ them as such. The ninth sounds strangely orchestrated to me - almost chamber-like - 'block' orchestration for families of instrumental colour, and its reliance on chromatic inflexions, sequential writing, transposition, modal modification of figures, uncomplex development and growth and pivot relationships between different tonal centres I find rather wearing.


His orchestration was a great influence on Berg, Webern and the Schoenberg of the op. 16.

He does quite the opposite of dealing with families of instruments - some of the pages of score feature flickers of colour throughout the orchestra, with lots of instruments playing tiny figures in succession. Compare this with Webern op. 6!

I'm afraid I'm not sure how one 'relies' on chromatic inflexions. And listen to the third movement again - loads of fugue and conterpoint, there's nothing 'uncomplex' about that development!


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## World Violist

I can't see Mahler's orchestration as "oppressive"--listen to a Brahms or Beethoven symphony or something, there is oppressive orchestration, but Mahler's is much more natural-sounding to my ear. And as for Richard Strauss, I was never a fan of his; there was never enough real substance. I've listened to Don Quixote--some people will swear by the last variation as extremely moving and such, and I found it anticlimactic and without a whole lot of personality, a problem I've had with his works all along. It seems to me that R. Strauss is not much more than a series of beautiful tonal colors--for that is what they are, let's face it--but not a whole lot else.

Mahler, I think, had the most substance of all the German Late-Romantics. And his orchestration is on par with Strauss, definitely. Don't put Mahler's orchestration down unless you plan on picking on other composers' orchestration, because other composers probably deserve it more.


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## JTech82

World Violist said:


> And as for Richard Strauss, I was never a fan of his; there was never enough real substance. I've listened to Don Quixote--some people will swear by the last variation as extremely moving and such, and I found it anticlimactic and without a whole lot of personality, a problem I've had with his works all along. It seems to me that R. Strauss is not much more than a series of beautiful tonal colors--for that is what they are, let's face it--but not a whole lot else.


This is an interesting dismissal of R. Strauss. I think he's great and his music shouldn't even be in the same sentence as Mahler, because Strauss is a completely different composer altogether. It's like apples and oranges.

You're certainly entitled to your opinion, but I think Strauss' music is one of a kind. Brilliant composer.

Have you ever played a Strauss piece before? Since you're a violinist, I'm sure you've had to play at least one piece by him.

I also personally feel some people are a little too "Mahler happy." I mean he was a great composer, but there are other composers I enjoy besides Mahler. For me, Mahler's 2nd, 5th, 6th, and 9th are his masterpieces and you can keep the rest of them.


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## Chi_townPhilly

JTech82 said:


> Since you're a violinist...


I know this is a little off-topic, but here's as good a place as anywhere to say it...

His name is *World Violist*, NOT World Violinist.

He plays _viola_, not violin.

This was starting to rival use of "it's" when "its" is correct for most frequently made mistake on this board.*

Sorry for the semi-rant- but the guy's put up over thousand posts, and they're typically well-considered. We owe it to him to get his name right.

* to review _that_ one, "it's" is only used when "it is" makes sense in the sentence as an alternative...


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## World Violist

Haha, thanks for that CTP.

I have not played anything by R. Strauss yet (I'm only 17 yet, don't push it), but I have read through some of his scores. His orchestration is brilliant (and crazy difficult...), his melodic/thematic invention is quite ingenious, but I still can't help coming away cold after listening to a piece of his.


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## handlebar

I certainly consider Strauss an excellent composer and of the same stature as Mahler. I just don't like his compositions as much as Mahler's. It is just my own opinion.

I have the same feelings as World Violist: Strauss leaves me a bit cold and blase.

Jim


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## Lisztfreak

I'm just listening to the Ninth. The Adagio. It's two o'clock in the morning and the final pages resound - you know, those filigree threads of spider web, as Bernstein said, that bin Mahler to life. He tries, tries again to grab them, than just says 'Enough...' and lets go. A beautiful ending to a beautiful symphonic cycle (not considering the unfinished 10th, obviously).


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## Mirror Image

Lisztfreak said:


> I'm just listening to the Ninth. The Adagio. It's two o'clock in the morning and the final pages resound - you know, those filigree threads of spider web, as Bernstein said, that bin Mahler to life. He tries, tries again to grab them, than just says 'Enough...' and lets go. A beautiful ending to a beautiful symphonic cycle (not considering the unfinished 10th, obviously).


The 2nd, 5th, 6th, and 9th symphonies are very powerful. I agree with what Simon Rattle said about the 9th, check this out:


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## World Violist

Mahler's ninth is often against 2 and 6 as one of my favorite symphonies by that composer. It's just so amazing and vast and whatnot. Too great for words to encompass, and for once I think he really did envelope the world into one symphony: the world of a person on the threshold of the eternal.


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## Aramis

Are Bernstein's recordings of komplit Mahler symphonies by DG and Sony a diffrent sets? I mean this with cover where Mahler is chasing Bernstein who is taking a breath behind the middle-placed title of set and those recordings with covers showing various heads of Bernstein all in shades of one basic colour.


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## Guest

Aramis said:


> Are Bernstein's recordings of komplit Mahler symphonies by DG and Sony a diffrent sets? I mean this with cover where Mahler is chasing Bernstein who is taking a breath behind the middle-placed title of set and those recordings with covers showing various heads of Bernstein all in shades of one basic colour.


Yes they are different sets. Sometimes a recording with Sony is better than the DG, and vice versa.


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## Aramis

Thanks. I have opportunity to listen to the Sony thing but I wasn't sure if it is not the same as DG which I already know.


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## Guest

The only recordings from the Sony set that I have are the Adagio from the 10th, and the 5th. I enjoy both, but I prefer the 5th he recorded with Vienna on DG. Don't have a comparison for the 10th.


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## scytheavatar

DrMike said:


> The only recordings from the Sony set that I have are the Adagio from the 10th, and the 5th. I enjoy both, but I prefer the 5th he recorded with Vienna on DG. Don't have a comparison for the 10th.


Most people will agree that the 5th is the only symphony in the DG set that's better than anything from the Sony set.... that there's very little reason to get the DG set which pales in comparison to the Sony set.


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## World Violist

Yeah, I think Bernstein's Sony set has everything going for it except for a not-so-great 5th. The second on that set is one of the best I've ever heard, the third is also very good (cited by many as definitive, though I disagree), and the sixth and seventh are the recordings that set the bar in recording those symphonies. And the eighth... I like it a lot better than Solti, which isn't saying much. Bernstein still takes the whole thing too fast.

If you like Bernstein, the Sony set is Bernstein incarnate. As for the DG set, I love the second symphony for very different reasons. Whereas the Sony 2nd is super-charged with intensity and ends in a blaze of inspired glory, the DG 2nd takes a much broader view, with less intensity in the first three movements but crowns the interpretation with an overwhelming finale, more comparable to a massive apotheosis of all that has gone before. Many people say it's just too slow, but I maintain my argument that too slow is when the music itself falls apart; and the DG 2nd doesn't allow that to happen, and that's where the intensity lies.


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