# Has 'Classical' music died.



## Ali Ben Sawali (May 3, 2015)

Did 'classical' music (call it what you will) die in the mid 70's with the deaths of Shostakovich and Britten. Is it now just a museum piece. What percentage of the world's population could tell you the name of a piece written in the last 20 years, or hum it's tune. Who are todays composers in their ivory towers writing for, certainly not the 'lover of classical music', they are still working their way through the first half of the twentieth century or listening to Mozart. Put on your dinner jacket, go to a museum, sip a gin and tonic and hush, don't make a noise. Respect for the dead please.


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## Richannes Wrahms (Jan 6, 2014)

This is a popular myth and its ad populum with it. Anyway, most composers can't afford ivory towers and plenty of their masterworks have been economic loses. As for what the music lovers are into, well, the premiere of a Stockhausen's Mittwoch aus Licht was a great success.


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## Weston (Jul 11, 2008)

As far back as the 1950s -- I know because I was there -- almost no one could have told you who Shostakovich and Britten were. So what? Classical music is still here and always will be. It is evolving and some of it is cross pollinating with other genres. I think it's an exciting time for music in general. 

There always has and always will be a large population ignorant of the details of music and always a population of fanatics who want to know every detail. This is normal.


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## Nereffid (Feb 6, 2013)

And in fairness what percentage of the world's population could tell you the name of a piece by Bach, Mozart or Beethoven?


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## Dim7 (Apr 24, 2009)

I have a bad feeling about this thread - I know it seems totally harmless, but my psychic powers are telling otherwise....


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## sharik (Jan 23, 2013)

Ali Ben Sawali said:


> Is it now just a museum piece.


a museum piece?.. that may be, and mankind is entering the era of museums right now, in many senses.

museum items are our future.


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## Ali Ben Sawali (May 3, 2015)

Beethoven's music was played regularily in 'it's time'. The 7th symphony of Shostakovich being smuggled out of Leningrad was a popular news story. Britten's operas were eagerly awaited. Who knows about let alone eagerly awaits new works in the'classical' genre these days. You are more likely to go out for a meal, go to a Mozart concert and then go for a drink these days, however in Mozart's time you could do all 3 at once. The museum or the morgue? RIP the long tradition of being relevant and entertaining.


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## Badinerie (May 3, 2008)

Classical music ( like Rock and Roll ) will never die ! 
Just ask my next door neighbours...


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## Guest (May 3, 2015)

Dear Ali, I just spent four days at the Festival Mixtur in Barcelona.

As is appropriate for a festival so named, there were ensemble pieces, solo pieces, video, acoustic, electroacoustic, live electronics, determinate and indeterminate and improvisation, with both traditional and untraditional instruments.

All the concerts were well attended by enthusiastic listeners. Your idea of what a suppositious "you" is likely to do simply does not match up with what any real "you" is actually doing.

Emmanuelle Gibello's _2∏4evR_0.2_ is being performed again in Paris this coming Thursday (7 May, 2015). Anyone who has seen this already is certainly eagerly awaiting this upcoming performance. If I weren't going to be in Prague for another new music festival (which I just by the way eagerly await every year), I would be in Paris this coming weekend to see _2∏4evR_0.2._ As to whether our eager awaitings will get into history books some day or not, well that is beside the point. We are eager to hear new music. The musics we hear are both relevant and entertaining. And we are very much alive.

Ironically enough, a lot of the concerts we attend take place in museums. Of course, a lot of them also take place in abandoned factories, too. And the museums that host new music concerts do tend to be pretty happenin' kinds of places. Perhaps you've not been in the right kinds of museums is all.


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## sharik (Jan 23, 2013)

Ali Ben Sawali said:


> RIP the long tradition of being relevant and entertaining.


well since Wagner put an end to that tradition for good...


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## arpeggio (Oct 4, 2012)

Oh no. Not another classical music is dead thread.


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## Nereffid (Feb 6, 2013)

Ali Ben Sawali said:


> Beethoven's music was played regularily in 'it's time'. The 7th symphony of Shostakovich being smuggled out of Leningrad was a popular news story. Britten's operas were eagerly awaited. Who knows about let alone eagerly awaits new works in the'classical' genre these days. You are more likely to go out for a meal, go to a Mozart concert and then go for a drink these days, however in Mozart's time you could do all 3 at once. The museum or the morgue? RIP the long tradition of being relevant and entertaining.


Two things.
First, you might be experiencing the so-called "Pauline Kael effect". If you spend time with people who enjoy contemporary music you might find that their favourite composers' music is played regularly and that new compositions are eagerly awaited. No, classical music might not be as visible in the mainstream media as it used to be, but that certainly doesn't mean it's dead.
Second, I thought these days we were supposed to be lamenting how people have terrible attention spans and can't just sit and listen to music without wanting a distraction!


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

Classical music isn't dead. It was never a living thing in the first place. 

But there is still an audience for it and that's what seems to matter! What's more important is that even today there is a classical music world of composers, performers and academics who take classical music seriously, even for music written up to this very day.


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

some guy said:


> Dear Ali, I just spent four days at the Festival Mixtur in Barcelona.
> 
> As is appropriate for a festival so named, there were ensemble pieces, solo pieces, video, acoustic, electroacoustic, live electronics, determinate and indeterminate and improvisation, with both traditional and untraditional instruments.
> 
> ...


That sounds awesome! I wish I was there to see it! How is one supposed to pronounce the title of Gibello's piece?


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## Albert7 (Nov 16, 2014)

Classical music is dead.

The author is dead (Barthes).

So is the composer.

No worries. Death isn't a final note as things get reincarnated later on. 

Oh and Lindsey Stirling is alive. She dances to some type of hypnotic classical music dance like a pixie and that means we should party like it's 1899.


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## ptr (Jan 22, 2013)

Hey mate, don't worry, Classical Music has been dead for centuries and is till thriving and is more exciting and diverse then it ever has been!

/ptr


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## Guest (May 3, 2015)

If you add up all the concerts happening throughout the world today and all the people listening to classical music on recording, I bet that adds up to way more than back in the circles that had access to it in Europe in the 18th and 19th century...


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## Kivimees (Feb 16, 2013)

Ali Ben Sawali said:


> What percentage of the world's population could tell you the name of a piece written in the last 20 years, or hum *it's* tune.


It could be coincidence, but that individual who trashed American classical music some hours ago also used *it's* instead of *its*. :angel:


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## brotagonist (Jul 11, 2013)

Has CM died?

I still listen to it, now, more than ever! There are more new composers writing the kind of stuff I like to hear than ever before, and they are writing music that sounds like anything from Renaissance to Modern and anything in between. I cannot even imagine keeping up, there is that much! The media is hung up on youth music and popular culture, but if you are interested in finding today's CM, you will.


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## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

Dead? Never. What we have here is one of the most robust life-forms on the planet, not to say one of evolution's greatest success stories.


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## Ingélou (Feb 10, 2013)

I agree with Weston - Classical Music is more alive now than it was in the mid twentieth century.
Then there was a lot of classical music played on radio and television, but it was for a small, sometimes snobbish group, and 'ordinary people' (like my family and friends) didn't bother with it, though they couldn't help hearing and getting to like some of the popular pieces that were played. Or if like me, they were learning the violin at school, they'd play a bit of Bach and Handel. 
I did play Britten too, and York Minster put on an early performance of his Noyes Flude, but most of the classical stuff around seemed to be old.

But now? With the world shrinking to a global village - with all the technology - and with even niche music attracting huge numbers world-wide - classical music, along with many other types of music, is thriving. 

How many people could hum modern themes - well, I bet after Princess Diana's funeral, lots of people could hum Tavener's Song for Athene; and what about the classical music specially written for Lord of the Rings? But anyway, I can't imagine that in Bach's day there were hordes of burghers all humming his music, so I don't know that the hum-test proves anything much. 

On TalkClassical there are a lot of people who like Classical Music across the spectrum - a lot of people who like older music and compare the various interpretations including modern ones - a lot of people who like modern music in particular - and in the wider world, as some guy says, there are festivals that feature all sorts of new music and he points out that 'All the concerts were well attended by enthusiastic listeners.'

I think that Classical Music has never had it so good for several hundred years!


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## MagneticGhost (Apr 7, 2013)

Nah!! I won't believe it unless I see the body!


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## liquorice licks gina (Apr 26, 2015)

I think people are lead to believe that classical music is dying, particularly in the US because of so many bankruptcies and dissolving orchestra / opera houses. But classical music has been a minority genres since.... well i don;t know - but a long time. 

Its interesting to see all these threads as i am currently doing research in the UK about this very fact. Over the past 10 years the % of people attending classical music concerts has dropped from 9.1% to 7.7%. Now that is a drop but depending on the population inflation, it might not be an actual drop at all.

I think the main thing to consider here is that there is a chance that classical music is dead in the governing body's eyes. I theorise that one of the biggest reasons for classical music being further marginalised is due to lack of exposure in our schools as the curriculum has changed so much giving it less importance and relevance. 

I also think that if anyone believes that classical music is dead - do something about it. Get the music out there. Do some free for all gigs. 

There is plenty that can be done still!


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## bigshot (Nov 22, 2011)

The term "classical music" isn't particularly descriptive. Technically, it really only describes age... that music has survived long enough to achieve "classic status". But a better description of it is "concert hall music". It was music that was designed to be composed and published as scores, then performed for an audience in a concert hall, usually by people who played but didn't compose.

Recording technology changed the whole venue for music. Instead of pre-planning music on paper for performance in real time by third party musicians, it allowed for improvisational music that captured a moment and allowed that moment to be duplicated and distributed to a wider group of people than ever possible in the past. Composers could perform their own music and distribute it without going through the middle man of concert orchestras or soloists. This changed how music was composed and performed, and changed the whole venue for classical music.

There still are concert halls and composers, but recorded music has cut into the audience for that significantly, and concert hall music is no longer as big a part of society. Music that used to be performed live for audiences is now recorded and distributed on CDs. Serious new music is generally designed for the recording medium, not concert halls. So the classical music of today comprise a niche in the jazz, rock and pop genres, not music that is composed specifically for performance in a concert hall. And instead of large orchestras, music is created to be performed in small groups led by the composer himself.


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## MoonlightSonata (Mar 29, 2014)

Yes, classical music is definitely dead. That's why we have a thriving forum here, with a variety of compositions posted in _Today's Composers_ and enthusiastic (sometimes overly so) discussion in _Classical Music Discussion_.


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## mmsbls (Mar 6, 2011)

liquorice licks gina said:


> Its interesting to see all these threads as i am currently doing research in the UK about this very fact. Over the past 10 years the % of people attending classical music concerts has dropped from 9.1% to 7.7%. Now that is a drop but depending on the population inflation, it might not be an actual drop at all.


The Arts Councils "Taking Part" Survey asked about attendence at classical music concerts, and their results show the decline you mention. Many of us have wondered if other activites might show less of a decline or even an increase. For example, sales of CDs and vinyl records might also show a decline, but perhaps if online listening were included, there could actually be an increase of listenership. Do you know of any attempts to include online listening or other such changes?


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## SONNET CLV (May 31, 2014)

Badinerie said:


> Classical music ( like Rock and Roll ) will never die !
> Just ask my next door neighbours...


Has 'Classical' music died?

Not in my listening room.

---

Personal to Badinerie -- Do you live next door to me? Just curious.


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## liquorice licks gina (Apr 26, 2015)

Interestingly no. They only look upon attending concerts and playing instruments. Though they do include 'reading for pleasure' so it makes me wonder why they haven't included listening to vinyl, CDs or even iTunes.


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## bigshot (Nov 22, 2011)

MagneticGhost said:


> Nah!! I won't believe it unless I see the body!



View attachment 69186

Photo taken at the moment of death.


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## Ali Ben Sawali (May 3, 2015)

Argh, so it's dead but no one wants to admit that it's dead. OK, I get it now.


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## Crudblud (Dec 29, 2011)

Ali Ben Sawali said:


> Argh, so it's dead but no one wants to admit that it's dead. OK, I get it now.


There is nothing of the sort to admit. The music thrives thanks to the efforts of thousands of composers around the world; the industry survives, at least for now, but it will have to change the way in which it interacts with the public if this situation of mere survival is expected to improve.


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## rspader (May 14, 2014)

Classical music dead? Hell, it's not even sick.


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## arpeggio (Oct 4, 2012)

Ali Ben Sawali said:


> Argh, so it's dead but no one wants to admit that it's dead. OK, I get it now.


I have lost track on how many times I have responded to inquiries like this. Do you honestly think that in a classical music forum that has been around for several years you are the first one to have raised this issue?

OK for the umpteenth time I am an amateur musician who plays with several community orchestras and concert bands in Northern Virginia, USA. Several times a week I have contact with other amateur musicians at rehearsals. Two to threes times a month I perform in concerts and I meet with members of our audience who are enthusiastic followers of classical music. I just performed a concert today with the National Concert Band, a volunteer group. In the audience there were some parents who brought their children. There was a seven year old girl who loved the Rossini _La Gazza Ladra_.

I am a supporter of the Northern Virginia Youth Winds which is composed of very talented young people who love to perform classical music.

In short my experiences as an amateur bassoonist does not support the classical music is dead nonsense in the USA.

I guess I am imagining it when our orchestra plays Schoenberg to a sell out audience and I was hallucinating when I was talking with several members of the audience who told me it was their favorite piece.

My experience is that most of the classical music is dead crowd is upset that Beethoven is not a popular as Lady Gaga and they want to make atonal music a scapegoat. Check out the Delian Society: http://deliansociety.org/.

What documentation do you have to support your position? Do you have any experience working with a music organization like a community orchestra? Many of our members have actual experience working with amateur and professional groups. Just showing up and making unsupported declarative statements does not cut it.


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

Ali Ben Sawali said:


> Argh, so it's dead but no one wants to admit that it's dead. OK, I get it now.


Since you consider it dead, what are doing here?


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## Albert7 (Nov 16, 2014)

Bulldog said:


> Since you consider it dead, what are doing here?


Mistah Kurtz--he dead.

Perhaps we should expect a happy reincarnation someday.  Viva...


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## Rapide (Oct 11, 2011)

some guy said:


> As is appropriate for a festival so named, there were ensemble pieces, solo pieces, video, acoustic, electroacoustic, live electronics, determinate and indeterminate and improvisation, with both traditional and untraditional instruments.
> 
> ...


These genres are no longer classical music. Not by a long shot.


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## sharik (Jan 23, 2013)

'and the voice of harpers, and of musicians, and of them that play on the pipe, and on the trumpet, shall no more be heard at all in thee; and no craftsman of any art whatsoever shall be found any more at all in thee' - _The Holy Bible (the Apocalypse Of St.John)_


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## Guest (May 4, 2015)

Rapide said:


> These genres are no longer classical music. Not by a long shot.


Since I didn't name any genres, I have to ask, to what are you referring?


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## TresPicos (Mar 21, 2009)

Classical music is undead - and it's coming for us all!


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## Blancrocher (Jul 6, 2013)

Ali Ben Sawali said:


> Put on your dinner jacket, go to a museum, sip a gin and tonic and hush, don't make a noise.


Too few museums serve gin, in my admittedly limited experience.


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## Guest (May 4, 2015)

^ Yeah, only lukewarm _sekt_, the ********!


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

If you measure the health of classical music by the willingness of people to travel to big halls in city centers to hear people dressed up like 19th-century undertakers play pieces written lifetimes ago, then yes -- classical music is in ill health. But there may be other ways to assess its hardiness.


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## MoonlightSonata (Mar 29, 2014)

Ali Ben Sawali said:


> Argh, so it's dead but no one wants to admit that it's dead. OK, I get it now.


Unless you provide some reasoning, that's as baseless as me saying "Are you three years old? OK, I get it, you are but you don't admit it."


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## ptr (Jan 22, 2013)

Blancrocher said:


> Too few museums serve gin, in my admittedly limited experience.


They usually have "bring Your own bar policy"!  (I worked at a few museums during uni, and have ushered a few over intoxicated individuals back to the light of day and have scraped stomach content off of priceless antiquities, not one the most fun jobs I've had!)

/ptr


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## Guest (May 4, 2015)

^ Not guilty! I usually manage to get outside first under my own steam.


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## Blancrocher (Jul 6, 2013)

ptr said:


> They usually have "bring Your own bar policy"!  (I worked at a few museums during uni, and have ushered a few over intoxicated individuals back to the light of day and have scraped stomach content off of priceless antiquities, not one the most fun jobs I've had!)
> 
> /ptr


Haha--you should have taken photographs of those besmirched antiques! They might be worth a fortune! Or at any rate I'd throw some likes your way in the "funny pics to brighten your day" thread.


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## Guest (May 4, 2015)

^ A barf-filled Duchamp urinal?


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## Blancrocher (Jul 6, 2013)

TalkingHead said:


> ^ A barf-filled Duchamp urinal?


I just hope that nobody desecrates the work of Millie Brown in such a fashion.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/a...style-splatter-paintings-Lady-Gaga-loves.html

(My apologies if I digress.)


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## Guest (May 4, 2015)

Blancrocher said:


> I just hope that nobody desecrates the work of Millie Brown in such a fashion.
> 
> http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/a...style-splatter-paintings-Lady-Gaga-loves.html
> 
> (My apologies if I digress.)


After reading that article, Blanc, is that what one could call *suffering for one's art*?
PS: Pretty cool shoes that lady has.


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## ptr (Jan 22, 2013)

^^^everything was actually photographed for archival purposes, have a faint memory of even some of mess being kept in the museum lab fridge in case of the deification giving a post clean up reaction.. this was in the pre digital cameras era and I don't think that I would be popular with the Museum if I published these photos (given that I have access to them..  )

At one time we caught a zealous Christian activist painting religious graffiti with thick fast drying paint on a 1500 year old Viking stone monument, the museum stone conservator was not happy (to sat the least!), think that the offender got six months of community service as sentence. Personally I would have opted for crucifixion just to uphold the Christian tradition, mostly because I have very little patience with people who site religious reasons as protection for their atrocious deeds! 

/ptr


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

Ali Ben Sawali said:


> Argh, so it's dead but no one wants to admit that it's dead. OK, I get it now.


Well, bang goes my career then.


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## ptr (Jan 22, 2013)

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> Well, bang goes my career then.


Chucks, and I who had such high hopes of You being the next Alma Deutscher young Padawan! 

/ptr


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## Ingélou (Feb 10, 2013)

Surely people have been saying that Classical Music is dead for the past hundred years? It's as if every time an old lady nods off, someone phones Accident & Emergency: 'My granny's in a coma!' 

I have the feeling that the OP *wants* Granny to be dead!


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## Ali Ben Sawali (May 3, 2015)

Grandma has been sleeping for a very long time and is starting to smell a bit funny, more than usual.


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## Richannes Wrahms (Jan 6, 2014)

I guess we just need another Resurrecion Symphony then.


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## Ingélou (Feb 10, 2013)

Granny is immortal - like one of those fairies who can appear sometimes as a crone, and sometimes as a beautiful young princess. 
But she does like to keep us all guessing...


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## Ali Ben Sawali (May 3, 2015)

No one and nothing is immortal. There was a time before 'classical' music and there will be a time after 'classical' music (and of course I'm not just talking about the 'classical period'). Is music simply reverting back to a base form of popular song and 'thank god' just the occassional hymn of worship.


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## Blancrocher (Jul 6, 2013)

Richannes Wrahms said:


> I guess we just need another Resurrecion Symphony then.


Or else another Frankenstein Symphony, perhaps.


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## Ali Ben Sawali (May 3, 2015)

We've never been short of Frankenstein symphonies.


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## Kivimees (Feb 16, 2013)

Ali Ben Sawali said:


> We've never been short of Frankenstein symphonies.


Maybe you can get Dr Brodsky to conduct.


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## Ingélou (Feb 10, 2013)

Ali Ben Sawali said:


> No one and nothing is immortal. There was a time before 'classical' music and there will be a time after 'classical' music (and of course I'm not just talking about the 'classical period'). Is music simply reverting back to a base form of popular song and 'thank god' just the occassional hymn of worship.


I disagree. Classical music is simply 'music taken seriously as an art form'. Early Music certainly blurs folk music with art music, but there'd have been some difference between music played at court and at a village bop. Thereafter, popular music and art music diverge, though naturally art music is subject to the fashions of the day.

So what has changed? We still have *popular music*, and it's listened to by greater numbers than ever before, because of technology.

We still have *folk music*, and it's played in rural communities, and played by townees like me who enjoy dancing to it, and listened to by greater numbers than ever before, because of technology.

And we still have *art music*, which is listened to by greater numbers than ever before, because of technology. And despite the closure of orchestras, there are probably more people learning to play music, and more people aspiring to become composers (of every type of music), because of the Global Village Effect, and technology.

People will always want to excel in the different art forms, and art music and serious literature will always have people who want to create them, and people who appreciate that, including quite a lot of people who want to keep up with the latest intellectual trends.

No one person is immortal, but as long as Planet Earth is here, we'll have Classical Music.

You say it's dead, so it's dead for you.
Many of us say it's alive, so it's alive for us.

In fact, I just saw *Classical Music* pass by a moment ago, dressed in her State-of-the-Art gladrags...


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## Ali Ben Sawali (May 3, 2015)

Ingélou said:


> Many of us say it's alive, so it's alive for us.


Whether or not you say 'god is alive' doesn't make him more or less a fact. God exists or he doesn't. If you chose to believe in something that doesn't exist, such as 'god' or 'live and well classical music' then that is up to you. And the phrase 'more people are doing it today' with a world population that has increased massively over the last 400 years realy means nothing. In the world more people are dying today, more people are eating today and more people are farting today, that simply means we have a greater population.


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## Nereffid (Feb 6, 2013)

I have some complicated thoughts on this that might turn into a long rambling post that nobody reads, but the basic gist of it is this:

Yes, classical music is dead. But _only for a given value of the term "classical music"_. The majority of us here have a sufficiently broad definition of "classical music" for us to say unequivocally that it's not dead and is arguably more alive than ever. But it is certainly the case that some people's idea of "classical music" corresponds to something that is indeed dead (or at least coughing up blood).


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## science (Oct 14, 2010)

Ali Ben Sawali said:


> Whether or not you say 'god is alive' doesn't make him more or less a fact. God exists or he doesn't. If you chose to believe in something that doesn't exist, such as 'god' or 'live and well classical music' then that is up to you. And the phrase 'more people are doing it today' with a world population that has increased massively over the last 400 years realy means nothing. In the world more people are dying today, more people are eating today and more people are farting today, that simply means we have a greater population.


None of that seems to me to matter. Manichaeism is dead in spite of our greater population. The Sumerian language is dead in spite of our greater population. Geocentrism is very nearly dead, in spite of our greater population. Betamax is nearly dead, in spite of our greater population.

But classical music is vibrantly alive: concerts every day all over the world, new compositions all the time, new people discovering it every day, students all over the world studying violin and piano and composition, people all over the world buying classical music CDs and DVDs, people all over the world listening to it through YouTube and Spotify, people all over the world reading books about it, and no doubt most importantly of all, people all over the world arguing about it on the internet.


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

Ali Ben Sawali has been banned for having an opinion and created threads which resulted in the fundamental philosophical understanding of the existence of classical music.


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## Nereffid (Feb 6, 2013)

I can't say I'll miss such a negative poster, but I hope this doesn't spark a chorus of "If you can ban this guy, why can't you ban some other person we hate?"


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

I don't think I miss the posts much either, however I am a bit concerned that Ali was permanently banned for what just happened. I've seen people banned quickly in the past, but they were obvious trolls who became members simply to say things like 'classical music sux its for old people'

Anyhow, to pay my respects to the banned, I will follow the recommendation which was given to another person in another thread concerning the symphonies of Bax.


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## Taggart (Feb 14, 2013)

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> I don't think I miss the posts much either, however I am a bit concerned that Ali was permanently banned for what just happened. I've seen people banned quickly in the past, but they were obvious trolls who became members simply to say things like 'classical music sux its for old people'


Ali Ben Sawali was not "permanently banned for what just happened." He was permanently banned for a complex of reasons which I am not at liberty to discuss.


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## Ingélou (Feb 10, 2013)

Ali Ben Sawali said:


> Whether or not you say 'god is alive' doesn't make him more or less a fact. God exists or he doesn't. If you chose to believe in something that doesn't exist, such as 'god' or 'live and well classical music' then that is up to you. And the phrase 'more people are doing it today' with a world population that has increased massively over the last 400 years realy means nothing. In the world more people are dying today, more people are eating today and more people are farting today, that simply means we have a greater population.


Yes, but we don't just have 'more people' - we have more people who are well educated, more people who know about different types of music and can choose, and more people (thanks to technology) who are able to listen to classical music.

Classical music has been opened up to people of different geographical regions, different social backgrounds, and different ethnic origins, and also to more women than in the past. This is bound to make for some new creativity & it already has.

I mean 'Western Classical Music' of course, which has become very popular in the Far East, where many new composers and fab musicians now come from. But of course it is a multi-way process and the art music of the Far East (or Middle East, or Africa, or South America) has also enriched composers who grew up in America or Europe.


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## PITBULL (May 4, 2015)

I'm sure he'll be back under a different name quite soon. He'll probably be banned for being a counter revolutionary or being an enemy of the people. People don't like their view of the world being questioned.


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## papsrus (Oct 7, 2014)

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> Ali Ben Sawali has been banned for having an opinion and created threads which resulted in the fundamental philosophical understanding of the existence of classical music.


I'm not clear on what you're saying here. Not disagreeing with the decision, as the poster was obviously trolling, throwing out false analogies, etc., and probably not getting the frothy reactions he had hoped for, but unless I'm missing something the stated reason for banning him is a little unclear. ... not that it really matters.


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## PITBULL (May 4, 2015)

The world of 'classical music is very sheltered and protected. That is why it is dying. Accussing someone of trolling (whatever that means) for expressing a view or asking a question, is the sheltered and protected world of something that feels it need offer no justification for it's practices.


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## papsrus (Oct 7, 2014)

PITBULL said:


> ... Accussing someone of trolling (whatever that means). ...


Google. It's a handy tool. 
Spell check is handy, too.


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## Ingélou (Feb 10, 2013)

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> Ali Ben Sawali has been banned for having an opinion and created threads which resulted in the fundamental philosophical understanding of the existence of classical music.


As I understand it, this is just CoAG's surmise as to why the OP is banned.



Taggart said:


> Ali Ben Sawali was not "permanently banned for what just happened." He was permanently banned for a complex of reasons which I am not at liberty to discuss.


Someone 'in the know' has said that it wasn't about this thread or the opinions that the OP mentioned in this thread.



papsrus said:


> I'm not clear on what you're saying here. Not disagreeing with the decision, as the poster was obviously trolling, throwing out false analogies, etc., and probably not getting the frothy reactions he had hoped for, but unless I'm missing something the stated reason for banning him is a little unclear. ... not that it really matters.


He *was *trolling - I don't mean here. I saw at least one other thread he posted today that was clearly out to cause a flame war *(in my opinion)*. I usually keep out of matters that concern modern music, but this particular thread-title and original post was quite blatant. I reported it.



PITBULL said:


> The world of 'classical music is very sheltered and protected. That is why it is dying. Accussing someone of trolling (whatever that means) for expressing a view or asking a question, is the sheltered and protected world of something that feels it need offer no justification for it's practices.


Nobody can be accused of 'trolling' for expressing a view. 
It's how you express it that matters. 
At least, that's what I understand from the ToS.

Personally, I think this thread about the death of classical music is asking a valid question and has drawn some interesting replies. It's made me think, anyway!


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## PITBULL (May 4, 2015)

'Someone in the know' an unnamed source. You realy don't want different views on here do you.


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## GreenMamba (Oct 14, 2012)

People are fine with different opinions. The OP made a statement, received some disagreement, and then wrote this:

_Argh, so it's dead but no one wants to admit that it's dead. OK, I get it now._

Which shows a lack of respect for others. The OP wasn't interested in whether we agreed with his premise. He wasn't engaging in debate.


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## Taggart (Feb 14, 2013)

PITBULL said:


> 'Someone in the know' an unnamed source. You really don't want different views on here do you.


We don't mind different views. What we object to is " intentionally posting derogatory or inflammatory messages with the deliberate intent to bait users into responding, ranging from subtle jibes to outright personal attacks." This is the definition of trolling from the ToS You can say what you like about music as long as it is politely expressed and is part of a civilised discussion.


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## Ingélou (Feb 10, 2013)

PITBULL said:


> 'Someone in the know' an unnamed source. You realy don't want different views on here do you.


How do you mean an 'unnamed source' - I was obviously referring to Taggart, who is one of the moderators. So he is 'in the know', but he is not allowed to reveal the background.

You seem to be a new member. There are lots of different views on here - after all, it's *Talk* Classical, a *discussion* forum.

Read some of the old threads, and you'll see what I mean.

Variety is the spice of life.


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## PITBULL (May 4, 2015)

Being unpolite!!! Is that it. In a world of different cultures and varying standards you ban people for not meeting YOUR standards of politeness. Freedom lives but only polite freedom obviously. Polite little old boys clubs are usually a sign of decay.


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## Ingélou (Feb 10, 2013)

PITBULL said:


> Being unpolite!!! Is that it. In a world of different cultures and varying standards you ban people for not meeting YOUR standards of politeness. Freedom lives but only polite freedom obviously. Polite little old boys clubs are usually a sign of decay.


The point has been made that we don't know why the OP of this thread was banned. 
So you can't draw any conclusions as you don't know the background.

Why not give us your opinion about the question asked in the OP.

I am interested.


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## PITBULL (May 4, 2015)

I agree 100% with Ali, in all things.


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## Ingélou (Feb 10, 2013)

Really? However, I hope you will differ from Ali in showing that you know something about modern composers and modern music, because if all you know about are the older composers, you're not in a good position to make blanket statements about modern classical music being dead.

Please - tell us the modern music you've sampled that has led to your agreeing with the OP that classical music is dead.
Sweeping assertions and abuse of TC don't exactly prove your case.


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## papsrus (Oct 7, 2014)

I suspect what we have here is one person with two (or more) usernames, or a couple of people playing around in tandem. 

There's been no thoughtful case made as to why classical music is dead. Maybe someone could make the argument? 

I would argue that anything -- whether it be classical music, sports cars, classic movies, ice hockey, video games, whatever -- doesn't require "broad" or mass appeal in order to be deemed successful (or not dead). There are all sorts of interests that don't have broad appeal, yet are passionately embraced by enough of an audience to keep them viable and "alive" (or not dead).

So classical music isn't of paramount importance for most people. This is not a sign of death anymore than the lack of broad enthusiasm for sports cars means the sports car is dead. Or the lack of broad acceptance of video games (outside the 12 to 21-year-old male demographic) means video games are dead. It's a hollow argument. 

I'm not even sure that's the argument being made, though.


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## MagneticGhost (Apr 7, 2013)

How many times can one person make an account? Can an IP address not be banned?
Can people be banned for not knowing how to use a Question Mark?


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## Taggart (Feb 14, 2013)

MagneticGhost said:


> How many times can one person make an account? Can an IP address not be banned?
> Can people be banned for not knowing how to use a Question Mark?


Depends how determined they are. If we spot abuse, then an IP address can be banned. While punctuation is important, politeness is even more so.


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## GhenghisKhan (Dec 25, 2014)

Ali Ben Sawali said:


> You are more likely to go out for a meal, go to a Mozart concert and then go for a drink these days, however in Mozart's time you could do all 3 at once.


That would be freaking awesome.


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## ArtMusic (Jan 5, 2013)

Composed music is obviously still "alive", it happens everyday. The most popular form of composed music today is of course film music. I like many film music. John Williams is the greatest of them all.

This is what I consider to be true modern classical music. All do the billions of fans making this immortal.


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## Dim7 (Apr 24, 2009)

ArtMusic said:


> This is what I consider to be true modern classical music.


Is there such a thing as false classical music then and what that would be?


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

Dim7 said:


> Is there such a thing as false classical music then and what that would be?


Imo false classical music refers to music labelled 'crossover' whilst also including composers such as Karl Jenkins and Ludovico Einaudi.


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## Blancrocher (Jul 6, 2013)

Dim7 said:


> Is there such a thing as false classical music then and what that would be?


Music with lots of falsetto, I believe.


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

^^^^HA!!!! hahaha! You, my friend, have absolutely nailed it!


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## Sonata (Aug 7, 2010)

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> Imo false classical music refers to music labelled 'crossover' whilst also including composers such as Karl Jenkins and Ludovico Einaudi.


I actually like both of those guys


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## Guest (May 7, 2015)

Dim7 said:


> Is there such a thing as false classical music then and what that would be?


And what does "greatest" even mean after the death of the "last great composer"?


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## ArtMusic (Jan 5, 2013)

Dim7 said:


> Is there such a thing as false classical music then and what that would be?


Oh lots, and lots indeed.


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## HaydnBearstheClock (Jul 6, 2013)

To answer the question: no; evidence - this forum.


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## superhorn (Mar 23, 2010)

People always mistake the fact that a canon of established masterpieces exists for the "death " of
classical music and the supposed "ossification " of the repertoire . 
Anyway , what's wrong with museums ? Museums are cool places to visit , and the world would be a much poorer place without them . 
And if our symphony orchestras are "dinosaurs ", well dinosaurs are cool ! People all over the world love to see dinosaurs in museums . Why should it be any different with classical music ?
Actually , there is no lack of new classical music today ; since the year 2000 , who knows how many
new orchestral works, operas and other works havebeen premiered . 
If most of them haven't become lastingly popular yet , the vast majority of all the classical music
written over the centuries has been forgotten, too . But you never know when any of them might be revived in the future . The classical repertoire ,is in constant flux . It's anything but "ossified ".


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## Richannes Wrahms (Jan 6, 2014)

*She was wanting that night...*​*...and I had a chord up my sleeve...*​...it was too much for her.​


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