# Does we overstimate the conducting?



## violyona (Jul 23, 2017)

*Do we overstimate the conducting?*

It's very intersting question for me.

First at all I should say that I really love this thing. In my musical college I always take this subject as an elective  Of course, it's very intersting to read the scores, to conduct your pianists (what can we say about the orchestras! But it's for elite :lol: ) and etc. I think, everybody understands what I mean.

But are the great conductors genius or just talanted people? For example, Stravinsky said that conductor's genius is overstimate very much. May be is it true? May be for exellent conducting you just should have some awesome orchestra and some technique luggage, be good organisator, clever and educated person that understand the music?

Or is Igor Fedorovich wrong and all the great conductors are really geniuses?

We have a lot of mediocre conductors... may be because everyone thinks that it is so easy?

P.S.: sorry for "does" from header, it's my inattention


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## Holden4th (Jul 14, 2017)

I've only conducted at a very junior level (school choirs, ensembles, etc) and my contribution in keeping the amateur musicians a tempo, etc were mainly the result of the rehearsal work we did. I just felt that I was there to bring them all in together at the start and maintain the beat whilst looking at them in certain parts of the music to remind them of what we had rehearsed. 

Now, with professional musicians, after the rehearsal, would I really have to do this? Ensembles like the COE suggest not.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Overestimate the conducting? Just the opposite!

Example- pianists conducting Mozart Piano Concertos from the keyboard. Simply compare their performances to recordings with an actual collaboration among soloist, conductor and orchestra. The latter is usually better coordinated-orchestra less ragged, pre-mature entries gone, etc; 

The conductor is vital!


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## Tallisman (May 7, 2017)

The conductor on stage is semi-symbolic, semi-important. The conductor behind the scenes, in rehearsal is totally vital. 
Look at this video: Bohm is vital in sharpening every moment of the process in _rehearsal_ but the musicians also need him in _performance_ so that they have that sense of continuity. I think it's essential for an orchestra to feel as if that there is some wise, guiding force of the maestro controlling the whole thing even if he actually isn't.

The fact that the wind section knows that Bohm is eyeing them in the performance might make them sharpen up a little, whereas if he wasn't there they wouldn't feel the pressure to 'please father' as it were.


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## Strange Magic (Sep 14, 2015)

As an aside, there have been quite successful orchestras without conductors. The Orpheus ensemble is well-known and active today. But perhaps the most accomplished was the Soviet orchestra _Persimfans_, whose details are given here:

https://www.trivia-library.com/b/history-of-the-greatest-conductorless-orchestra.htm


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## violyona (Jul 23, 2017)

We can remember that some period orchestra didn't know conductor at all. But it belongs to until classicism's times. I think, later the music began to get complacated and that's why conducting was born. I think, great orchestras can play good without conductor but why to waste more time for rehearsals? 

P.S.: oh, to the purpose! Some teacher told me about one intersting experiment. Face of some conductor was closed from orchestra, but he anyway could conduct, his hands was free. And orchestra anyway broke up. Maybe someone has more information about this?


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

The most important job of a conductor is to know more about the totality of the score than any of the other musicians AND how all the parts fit together into the whole. Clearly the musicians know their part but it isn't often that they are equally familiar with everything else that is (or should be) going on. Except in a few cases, typically in smaller ensembles, working without a conductor ends up with an interpretation which satisfies all, or, more accurately, is least objectionable to all.

Relating to this, Franz Welser-Most recently said of one soloist _"It was the first time in my career that there was a soloist with the full score onstage, and she would write down everything I said to the orchestra"_


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## violyona (Jul 23, 2017)

And anyway... I think, most people agree with important role of conductor. But anyway. Is there a conductor genius or it's a myth? It's intersting to hear opinions about exactly this question. I'm sure, nobody among professionals says that good conductor is needless.
P.S.: maybe I formulate the question not very good, I'm sorry


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## eugeneonagain (May 14, 2017)

Can a film or a theatre production do without a director? The actors know what they're doing, they're professionals. When the scenes are happening the director seems not to be doing much, but the work put in to get to that point is unseen by the audience. An orchestra conductor is doing this sort of thing and a bit more besides.

As for one-night 'guest' conductors, well I don't know. They may just be nominal arm-wavers.


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## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

Different conductors can make the same orchestra sound different. They must be doing something. 

Personally, the times I've been in charge of conducting ensembles, it was an effort on my part to keep everything together, especially when someone came in too soon or too late; to make sure some weren't too loud or soft; to make sure the tempo wasn't lagging or rushing. And sometimes all that changed depending on the performance hall; some are dry and some are overly resonant. One person behind an instrument can't tell what effect they are having on their own. It helps to have someone at the front hearing the whole thing and making adjustments. 

Having said that, I saw Joshua Bell and the Academy of St. Martin in the Fields, and he wasn't so much conducting as he was soloing, but their ensemble playing was superb; for example, the trumpets were at the exact volume that they didn't overpower the strings. It was a marvelous experience. 

I'm sure conductors do more in rehearsals than they show in public. Leonard Bernstein was able to conduct a piece with the Vienna Phil physically, then with just his eyebrows as a sight gag, and I couldn't tell any difference.


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## JeffD (May 8, 2017)

Becca said:


> The most important job of a conductor is to know more about the totality of the score than any of the other musicians AND how all the parts fit together into the whole.


I think this is the real point. The conductor's genius is different from the players' genius. The conductor is worried about the ensemble, and not as much about the second oboe part in particular.

I would think it easy for a player to not fully appreciate the conductor's contribution and what it takes. Just as, I am sure, individual players may feel underappreciated by the conductor, who maybe doesn't appear to realize what the player has had to master.

While they certainly interact on the same stage, what is required of players is fundamentally different from what is required of the conductor.


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## Jacred (Jan 14, 2017)

What a conductor does on stage is just the tip of the iceberg. What he or she does during rehearsals, when the audience isn't looking, accounts for most of the conductor's importance.


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## Tallisman (May 7, 2017)

What the conductor _does_ on stage is less important. The conductor's _very presence_ on stage is hugely important.


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## bharbeke (Mar 4, 2013)

An easy way to see the effect of a conductor is to compare recordings close in time of the same orchestra and piece with different conductors. The interpretation is very much shaped by the conductor's work.


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## MarkW (Feb 16, 2015)

Depends upon the conductor, and how seriously he or she takes the job.


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## Brahmsianhorn (Feb 17, 2017)

The great conductors of the past had personality and imbued the music with an individual human face, which is sorely lacking today. Music should never simply be played.


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

Brahmsianhorn said:


> The great conductors of the past had personality and imbued the music with an individual human face, which is sorely lacking today. Music should never simply be played.


That is a typical "things were better back then" statement. There were plenty of conductors in the past who simply played the music but they are mostly forgotten and we only remember the noteworthy ones. Likewise there are plenty of current conductors who imbue the music with personality.


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

While rehearsal technique is the most important, a good conductor also acts as a human feedback mechanism in performance. On one hand they mentally see the score and know what to expect while at the same time hearing what is happening and correcting the differences. Along the way they are aware of where it is helpful to cue the musicians.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

The great conductors make a huge difference. A deputy conductor was once preparing an orchestra for Beecham. He handed them over and Beecham just waved his arms and the effect was electrifying. The deputy said, "Just how does the old b***** do it?" A similar thing happened when Karajan took over an orchestra that van Kempan had been conducting. Again, with no preparation, the effect was remarkable. As if there is a dynamic energy exhuming from the conductor.


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## superhorn (Mar 23, 2010)

The individual members of an orchestra are responsible for their own parts, and must always cooperate with the other musicians and be aware pf what is going on, but the conductor has to study the full score . which shows all the different orchestral parts simultaneously .
If you've never actually seen one, a full score, particularly if it is alate 19th or 20th century work, can have 20 or even 30 or more lines of different orchestral parts, and the conductor has to study the whole thing thoroughly ! No easy task !
The woodwinds are at the top, then the brass , percussion ,harp etc, and at the bottom, the strings : first violins, second violins, violas, cellos and double basses .
Of course, there are some passages where not all the orchestra is playing, and then you don't see all the different lines .
In addition, there are countless other things indicated in the score ; tempo markings, metronome markings if the composer uses them, and various instructions for the conductor . 
Full scores are easily available from publishers such as Dover press , which has very reasonable prices . Some people like miniature scores for saving space and even taking to concerts to follow the music, which some people do . 
Conductors also put numerous markings in their scores themselves in order to reined them of what to do in rehearsal and performance .


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## arpeggio (Oct 4, 2012)

^^^^
Excellent reply. Have I ever told you my favorite brass players are the horns?


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## Paul T McGraw (Jan 19, 2017)

After many years of playing in community orchestras and bands I agree with most of the above comments. The real work is in the rehearsals. It is a real joy even in a volunteer group to work with a well prepared leader working in harmony and partnership with the musicians. Sadly that is not always the case.

You have the tyrannical, insulting, super-egotist who thinks he is the only one in the room who "truly understands" Beethoven or Strauss or whoever. These guys live to devastate some poor musician who just made a mistake and they know it, but he has to call them out in front of the whole room and make them feel like a worm.

Then there is the leader who is overly friendly and has a hard time even calling the rehearsal to order and getting started because he doesn't want to seem "overly controlling". But worst of all is the detached, I could care less, sneering, you people are so stupid and untalented that I will not even bother to show up on time jerk. This guy can hardly be bothered to even listen to the musicians, let alone mold a performance, and after arriving late, will call the rehearsal early to get out to more important matters. Important to him I guess. 

To some extent anyone who becomes a conductor must have a fairly obvious narcistic personality. But good ones get the job done and help the group create a good performance.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

OP: Experiment:

Mahler's Eighth Symphony (Symphony of a Thousand): Two performances:

1. With conductor

2. Without conductor.

Repeat experiment with Ravel's La Valse.

You tell me.


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## Holden4th (Jul 14, 2017)

I see the conductor partly as a coach (I'm a swimming coach BTW). You do all the work in the training pool and at a swim meet you remind your swimmers, just before they go to marshalling, what they've worked on. If I don't turn up to a swim meet, I can't give that reminder so in that way my presence is important but once the buzzer has sounded and the swimmer has leapt from the blocks it's all up to them.


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## arpeggio (Oct 4, 2012)

^^^^
It depends. For a Strass waltz maybe but for a complicated work like the _Rite of Spring._


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## Johnnie Burgess (Aug 30, 2015)

Holden4th said:


> I see the conductor partly as a coach (I'm a swimming coach BTW). You do all the work in the training pool and at a swim meet you remind your swimmers, just before they go to marshalling, what they've worked on. If I don't turn up to a swim meet, I can't give that reminder so in that way my presence is important but once the buzzer has sounded and the swimmer has leapt from the blocks it's all up to them.


I think conducting an orchestra is different because you are dealing with possibly with over 100 people working together. One person would not be able to notice what all the other performers are doing so they would need someone to keep them working together.


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## superhorn (Mar 23, 2010)

The so-called "Persflams " orchestra in Moscow decades ago was able to perform without a conductor, but it required an enormous amount of rehearsal time to prepare for concerts . 
The concertmaster sort of became the conductor in all but name , which has been the usual thing in the 18th century before baton-waving conductors because the norm . 
But it would be absolutely impossible for a professional orchestra to do this today , because the major ones play a different program every week for months on end . 
Today, the Orpheus chamber orchestra functions perfectly well without a conductor , but they require a lot more rehearsal time, too .


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## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

A conductor certainly matters. The job is not easy, but so many "conductors" don't know what the job is about. The fundamental thing is to keep the ensemble together and play in balance. When those things are present, then the real music making can begin. But there are far, far too many out there who think that simply holding a baton and making fancy patterns is what a conductor does. I've played with too many who don't know the score and have their heads buried in it so they aren't really listening. There are too many who don't know the style and traditions of music they want to conduct. And too many who didn't spend enough time themselves playing in an orchestra, or being an opera coach, to really know what a conductor does. 

I also firmly believe that many super-star conductors are no better than many lesser conductors. Publicity, their hair and looks, who they sleep with influences too many people involved. It really irritates me that we place so much importance on the conductor and less on the composer or the orchestra. And then we pay these time-beaters exorbitant salaries!


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## amfortas (Jun 15, 2011)

mbhaub said:


> I also firmly believe that many super-star conductors are no better than many lesser conductors. Publicity, their hair and looks, who they sleep with influences too many people involved. It really irritates me that we place so much importance on the conductor and less on the composer or the orchestra. And then we pay these time-beaters exorbitant salaries!


C'mon. Name some names. :devil:


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

It is interesting that in rehearsals Karajan always emphasised the need for players to listen to each other


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## arpeggio (Oct 4, 2012)

^^^^
Two of the conductors I play with say this all of the time. I hear it at least once a week. As amateurs we have to be frequently reminded this, particularly the trumpet players.


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

DavidA said:


> It is interesting that in rehearsals Karajan always emphasised the need for players to listen to each other


 Any good conductor is going to encourage, demand that his/her musicians do that. It is crucial to good ensemble playing.


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## lextune (Nov 25, 2016)

Do we overestimate Conducting? No.

Conductors? ...some of them. Yeah, we do.


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