# Puccini's 162nd Birthday



## vivalagentenuova (Jun 11, 2019)

Happy Birthday Puccini!

Like all great opera composers, Puccini had many strengths and some weaknesses. But if all the noise about him being shallow, empty, and a backward looking musician were true, he wouldn't still be bankrolling virtually every opera company in the world over one hundred years later. Works of little artistic merit generally die out over time because their popularity is due to the fact that they embody instead of transcend their times. Rarely do works like that increase in popularity over time. Not only have Puccini's Big Three maintained their popularity, but even his later, initially less popular works, especially _Fanciulla_ and _Turandot_, have become more and more popular over time. Each of the _Trittico_ operas is now solidly in the standard repertoire. Even _La rondine_ is getting a little recognition. Puccini is being reevaluated by scholars as a twentieth century composer in his own right, one that took a different path from Modernism.

I just want to say something about what I think Puccini's (sometimes overlooked) strengths are. Everyone knows that he had an absurd talent for writing highly memorable, intensely emotional melodies. It's not even limited to his arias. In fact, I think one of the major factors behind Puccini's success is that his in between music is more highly melodic than usual. This is one of his major strengths as an opera composer: mastery over the arioso style. This gives his works the continuous flow of Wagner's operas, but with continual melodic interest in the vocal line.

Furthermore, Puccini is one of if not the best composers at maintaining a musical sense of scene and character. He can create three dimensional soundscapes out of which actions and emotions emerge with elegant inevitability. Each of Puccini's operas has a unique orchestral sound that makes it feel like it's own complete world. Puccini can cut back and forth between chorus and main characters with the skill of a great film editor, and in his mature operas his acts never feel choppy or disjointed.

Finally, Puccini never stopped growing and excelling himself. He was always trying new things, dramatically, musically, orchestrally. This is one of the reasons his later operas have been increasing in popularity over time. I don't think people at the time knew what to do with a French Impressionistic Italian Verismo Wagnerian Christian Western or three independent but interrelated one act operas that draw on Dante's _Divine Comedy_, or a metatheatrical sentimental but cynical love story that asks whether or not it's a comedy or a drama in the opening lines, or a pageant filled fantasy story with archetypal characters next a verismo heroine and cynical but lovable commedia dell'arte nihilist bureacrats wrapped up in bitonality infused lush romantic exotic oriental scoring that's a through composed and symphonic but also traditional numbers opera...

Anyway, much more meaningful than anything I can say is the simple tribute from Ravel, who upon hearing of Puccini's death remarked, "He was our brother."

Some great performances:
_La boheme_





From _La fanciulla del west_





_Il Tabarro_





_Gianni Schicchi_





_Turandot_


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

Lovely post and I agree with every word. :tiphat:


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## pianozach (May 21, 2018)

Happy 162nd Birthday *Giaccomo Puccini*
Anna Netrebko singing _*O mio babbino caro*_ ("Oh my dear papa") from the opera *Gianni Schicchi* (1918)

Puccini in 2 and a half minutes.


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## Revitalized Classics (Oct 31, 2018)

Puccini was a genius - I'm so grateful for the continued pleasure I get from listening to his music. Just consider all the artists inspired by his music and the inestimable part he played, and continues to play, in the enjoyment and popularising of opera.

There are few things as exciting as a great performance of a Puccini opera - it is definitely something to relish


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

Here's O Mio Babbino Caro sung by an opera singer.


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

Puccini is probably the most satisfying composer of all composers I am familiar with. His musical simplicity is appealing because he is able to easily imbue emotions and feelings to the average music lover. He knows how to get into the depths of a character through his arias.
It angers me when those who put down his music cite the belief that it is not sophisticated enough.
Yet the most lasting legacies of his writing, "La Boheme", "Madama Butterfly" and "Tosca" are almost always regularly listed on the schedules of operatic venues. Why? Because audiences clamor for it and GM's know they will fill the seats with ease. 
Giacomo Puccini was a genius and his works will go on forever satisfying all kinds of people.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Barbebleu said:


> Here's O Mio Babbino Caro sung by an opera singer.


Callas is not the singer who first comes to mind when you think of Lauretta, but I love the little pout she puts into her voice here, when she talks about thowing herself into the Arno.

Here's another more naturally suited to the role.


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## silentio (Nov 10, 2014)

Nominate your most favorite Puccini's melody/aria? For me, Butterfly's entrance is the quintessential Puccini:


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

E lucevan le stelle per me! Forse Senza Mamma?


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## pianozach (May 21, 2018)

pianozach said:


> Happy 162nd Birthday *Giaccomo Puccini*
> Anna Netrebko singing _*O mio babbino caro*_ ("Oh my dear papa") from the opera *Gianni Schicchi* (1918)
> 
> Puccini in 2 and a half minutes.





Barbebleu said:


> Here's O Mio Babbino Caro sung by an opera singer.


*Anna Netrebko* is a Russian-Austrian operatic soprano. No need to infer that she isn't.

*Maria Callas* was an American Greek operatic diva soprano.

I actually prefer the more laid back version by Netrebko. Callas seems to be challenged as far as volume control goes on those high notes. Either that or interpretation leans more towards showoffness rather than musicality. Truly, I understand Callas' approach, but prefer the more dulcet tones that Netrebko showcases.


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## Revitalized Classics (Oct 31, 2018)

silentio said:


> Nominate your most favorite Puccini's melody/aria? For me, Butterfly's entrance is the quintessential Puccini:


Favourite aria for me would be "Donde lieta uscì" for Mimi from _La Boheme_






Favourite melody has to be the Humming Chorus


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

Of the 3 versions of O Mio Babbino Caro on this page, I found Callas not to my liking. Her voice is not appealing at all. The other two were excellent.


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## Rogerx (Apr 27, 2018)

Composer Birthdays


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## vivalagentenuova (Jun 11, 2019)

silentio said:


> Nominate your most favorite Puccini's melody/aria?


My favorite Puccini melody is probably the "redemption motive" from _La fanciulla del west_ (7:41 below). It's a beautiful melody in its own right, and the way he uses it throughout the opera is totally brilliant. My other favorite is "E anche tu lo vorrei Joe" (4:44 below). It's not as instantly memorable, but it sticks with me and it is the operatic moment I play most frequently on the piano. Of course, one melody leads to another, and the redemption motive comes back in the ensuing ensemble for one of opera's most glorious climxes.


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## Rogerx (Apr 27, 2018)

Dame Joan Sutherland; Luciano Pavarotti; "In questa reggia"; Turandot ; Giacomo Puccini.

Recording history.


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## Handelian (Nov 18, 2020)

At his best Puccini certainly gives a (to me) a vastly more interesting musical and dramatic experience than Wagner as he keeps the drama moving and gets inside the characters in the Italian way. I am uneasy about the way certain operas treat women - especially the 15 year-old Butterfly and the slave girl Liu - but of course our world today is not a lot better in many places. The man was a genius but not someone I would've wanted to have been acquainted with personally

But you can resist Freni and Pavarotti in this?






Difficult to imagine the tenor as a starving poet on stage but the voice is incredible


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

pianozach said:


> *Anna Netrebko* is a Russian-Austrian operatic soprano. No need to infer that she isn't.
> 
> *Maria Callas* was an American Greek operatic diva soprano.
> 
> I actually prefer the more laid back version by Netrebko. Callas seems to be challenged as far as volume control goes on those high notes. Either that or interpretation leans more towards showoffness rather than musicality. Truly, I understand Callas' approach, but prefer the more dulcet tones that Netrebko showcases.


I apologise for the rather harsh comment. Everyone brings something to the party. Sometimes you like it, sometimes you don't.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

pianozach said:


> *Anna Netrebko* is a Russian-Austrian operatic soprano. No need to infer that she isn't.
> 
> *Maria Callas* was an American Greek operatic diva soprano.
> 
> I actually prefer the more laid back version by Netrebko. Callas seems to be challenged as far as volume control goes on those high notes. Either that or interpretation leans more towards showoffness rather than musicality. Truly, I understand Callas' approach, but prefer the more dulcet tones that Netrebko showcases.


I understand you were piqued into it by the little swipe at your favourite, but Callas was a lot more than an Amercian Greek operatic diva soprano, and probably one of the greatest _musicians_ of the twentieth century (not something you can often say about singers).

As for this particular aria, Netrebko sings a lovely tune rather beautifully (though I already hear signs of that artificially darkened tone she uses these days) but I get absolutely nothing as to character or situation, possibly as a result of this version being sung out of context in what looks like a popular TV concert. Nor can I make out much of the text.

Callas is also singing out of context, nor is she a natural for this role, but, listening to it again now I love the little details, the way she lightens her tone and the little pout she puts into her voice when she talks about throwing herself into the Arno. Lauretta, after all, is not serious. She is just being rather petulant and trying to get round her "dear daddy".

This popular aria has probably been sung by almost every famous soprano you've ever come across, however unsuitable (Do I remember Nilsson singing it once?) and predictably two of the most convincing versions come from complete sets, like the De Los Angeles I posted above, and Ileana Cotrubas on the complete Maazel recording.

Others I remember enjoying are the later of Schwarzkopf's two recordings (the earlier is too slow and over-sentimentalised) and one by Kiri Te Kanawa, which was used in the film of _A Room with a View_ and there are others too numerous to mention, but in general I prefer the ones that give me some inkling that this is a spoiled little girl trying (successfully) to get round her father.


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## vivalagentenuova (Jun 11, 2019)

Handelian said:


> I am uneasy about the way certain operas treat women - especially the 15 year-old Butterfly and the slave girl Liu - but of course our world today is not a lot better in many places.


I would have thought the point of those operas was that we were supposed to be outraged at the way those characters were treated, not "by the operas", which are not agents who do things, but by other characters. In fact, in _Turandot_ the suffering of Liu is supposed to recall the death of Lou-Ling. Turandot explicitly says in In questa reggia that her cutting off the heads of her suitors is revenge for Lou-Ling's murder. Liu's (note the extremely similar names) torture and death are Turandot doing what she says she hates. That's an indictment of such treatment, not an endorsement. I don't know why that would reflect badly on the opera itself, or on the creators. In fact, Puccini's heroines are among the most complex female characters in opera. Then again, we've already had this conversation.



Tsaraslondon said:


> I prefer the ones that give me some inkling that this is a spoiled little girl trying (successfully) to get round her father.


I completely agree. The rendition in the RAI production I posted in the op is really well done that way. You really get the sense that she's playing daddy's heart strings but without overdoing it like Scotto. Despite the singer being fairly unknown, she's very good and it's one of my favorite renditions for that reason.

Vocally, my favorite is Easton:





Kirsten and Muzio also do very good renditions.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

vivalagentenuova said:


> I would have thought the point of those operas was that we were supposed to be outraged at the way those characters were treated, not "by the operas", which are not agents who do things, but by other characters. In fact, in _Turandot_ the suffering of Liu is supposed to recall the death of Lou-Ling. Turandot explicitly says in In questa reggia that her cutting off the heads of her suitors is revenge for Lou-Ling's murder. Liu's (note the extremely similar names) torture and death are Turandot doing what she says she hates. That's an indictment of such treatment, not an endorsement. I don't know why that would reflect badly on the opera itself, or on the creators. In fact, Puccini's heroines are among the most complex female characters in opera. Then again, we've already had this conversation.


We would all defend Puccini's right to his subject matter. But although I'd probably have to say that I find _Madama Butterfly_ one of the greatest and most compelling operas written by anyone, I simply find myself with little or no desire to experience it. A work that relates in realistic detail the deception and destruction of an innocent girl, expressed in music that wrings every last drop of pain from the subject, makes me feel almost voyeuristic, as if it's something I should not see. This can in turn lead to the feeling that it's somehow improper of a composer to ask me to see it, and then to the question of why Puccini wanted to portray it. He was most certainly not fundamentally interested in inspiring protest over the victimization of young women, or in generating outrage at the behavior of Pinkerton, who, apart from his role in Butterfly's existence, is hardly enough of a character to feel outrage toward. I don't think I'm alone in feeling something unsavory in the excruciating fates of Puccini's young women, whether they die in the "Louisiana desert," a garret in Paris, a castle rampart in Rome, a convent, or a palace in legendary China. They are innocent, and they die cruelly, for nothing, without redemption, while Puccini's music turns the thumbscrews into us as well as them.

I'm very grateful for Minnie.


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## Handelian (Nov 18, 2020)

vivalagentenuova said:


> I would have thought the point of those operas was that we were supposed to be outraged at the way those characters were treated, not "by the operas", which are not agents who do things, but by other characters. In fact, in _Turandot_ the suffering of Liu is supposed to recall the death of Lou-Ling. Turandot explicitly says in In questa reggia that her cutting off the heads of her suitors is revenge for Lou-Ling's murder. Liu's (note the extremely similar names) torture and death are Turandot doing what she says she hates. That's an indictment of such treatment, not an endorsement. I don't know why that would reflect badly on the opera itself, or on the creators. In fact, Puccini's heroines are among the most complex female characters in opera. Then again, we've already had this conversation.
> 
> .


I'm not thinking of Tirandot. She is a completely unsympathetic character. So is Calaf btw. I am thinking of Liu. I don't think anyone is 'outraged' by how 'poor little Liu' is treated at all.

Of course, Butterfly presents even more of a problem in the modern world.


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## pianozach (May 21, 2018)

pianozach said:


> Happy 162nd Birthday *Giaccomo Puccini*
> Anna Netrebko singing _*O mio babbino caro*_ ("Oh my dear papa") from the opera *Gianni Schicchi* (1918)
> 
> Puccini in 2 and a half minutes.





Barbebleu said:


> Here's O Mio Babbino Caro sung by an opera singer.





Tsaraslondon said:


> Callas is not the singer who first comes to mind when you think of Lauretta, but I love the little pout she puts into her voice here, when she talks about thowing herself into the Arno.
> 
> Here's another more naturally suited to the role.





pianozach said:


> *Anna Netrebko* is a Russian-Austrian operatic soprano. No need to infer that she isn't.
> 
> *Maria Callas* was an American Greek operatic diva soprano.
> 
> I actually prefer the more laid back version by Netrebko. Callas seems to be challenged as far as volume control goes on those high notes. Either that or interpretation leans more towards showoffness rather than musicality. Truly, I understand Callas' approach, but prefer the more dulcet tones that Netrebko showcases.





Bulldog said:


> Of the 3 versions of O Mio Babbino Caro on this page, I found Callas not to my liking. Her voice is not appealing at all. The other two were excellent.


Thank you for your comments, gentlemen.

I find it amusing that in general I gravitate towards dramatic interpretations, such as those by Callas, at least in instrumental music.


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## Handelian (Nov 18, 2020)

pianozach said:


> Thank you for your comments, gentlemen.
> 
> I find it amusing that in general I gravitate towards dramatic interpretations, such as those by Callas, at least in instrumental music.


Did Callas play guitar then?


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Handelian said:


> Did Callas play guitar then?


I don't know, but she was an accomplished pianist.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Tsaraslondon said:


> I don't know, but she was an accomplished pianist.


Has anyone unearthed a tape of Callas playing the piano?


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## Andjar (Aug 28, 2020)

"Che Tua Madre Dovra..." for me.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Woodduck said:


> Has anyone unearthed a tape of Callas playing the piano?


I don't think is, but there may be some of her accompanying herself while practicing.


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## Handelian (Nov 18, 2020)

Tsaraslondon said:


> I don't think is, but there may be some of her accompanying herself while practicing.


She was apparently a good pianist.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Handelian said:


> She was apparently a good pianist.


As I said in post #24 in response to tour query about her playing guitar.


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## Handelian (Nov 18, 2020)

Tsaraslondon said:


> As I said in post #24 in response to tour query about her playing guitar.


In case you didn't get the point, I was being humorous in response to another post. Her biography does state she was a good pianist


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Handelian said:


> In case you didn't get the point, I was being humorous in response to another post. Her biography does state she was a good pianist


Yes, I got it


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## Handelian (Nov 18, 2020)

Tsaraslondon said:


> Yes, I got it


Great! Have a great Christmas!


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## neofite (Feb 19, 2017)

vivalagentenuova said:


> Happy Birthday Puccini!
> 
> Like all great opera composers, Puccini had many strengths and some weaknesses. But if all the noise about him being shallow, empty, and a backward looking musician were true, he wouldn't still be bankrolling virtually every opera company in the world over one hundred years later. Works of little artistic merit generally die out over time because their popularity is due to the fact that they embody instead of transcend their times. Rarely do works like that increase in popularity over time. Not only have Puccini's Big Three maintained their popularity, but even his later, initially less popular works, especially _Fanciulla_ and _Turandot_, have become more and more popular over time. Each of the _Trittico_ operas is now solidly in the standard repertoire. Even _La rondine_ is getting a little recognition. Puccini is being reevaluated by scholars as a twentieth century composer in his own right, one that took a different path from Modernism.
> 
> ...


Excellent post and great links!

You have cleared up some confusion from which I had long been suffering. I had enjoyed Puccini for years. However, when I took an introduction to opera class in college, our professor, who was well known and highly regarded in the opera field, avoided mentioning Puccini until near the end of the semester, when he finally devoted less than an hour to him. When I asked why so little attention, he explained that Puccini was not really a first rate composer and thus it was not worth spending much time discussing him. Something like that his operas were merely sensational compositions written for the masses and were lacking in the artistic merit and creativity of operas by composers such as Wagner and Verdi. Consequently, thereafter, I paid less attention to Puccini and enjoyed his music a little less (although I did come to appreciate Wagner more as a result of the class). How gullible I was. But this professor was a highly respected opera expert, someone who did a great deal to both promote the appreciation of opera and to also facilitate the development of singers and opera companies, both locally and internationally. His classes were very popular because of his charming personality and his interesting lectures (and perhaps even more because he was well known as being an easy grader - which I now suspect was part of his strategy to encourage students to take his classes and thereby learn to appreciate opera). It was difficult to not respect his opinion. Thank you vivalagentenuova for your very good explanation and for thus now liberating me to fully enjoy Puccini again!


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Puccini has been underestimated for the same reasons that Rachmaninoff has. Both have been despised by Modernists for pursuing a late Romantic aesthetic and scorned by snobs who feel that music with immediate popular appeal can't be first-rate. These attitudes have faded to a great extent, but not entirely.


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## vivalagentenuova (Jun 11, 2019)

I wrote a super long post, but I think I can boil it down. Maybe.

To me, the important thing is, Is the suffering of women dramatically meaningful or gratuitous? In order to decide, we have to interpret his works. Puccini once said, "Love and suffering were born with the world." I take this to mean that Love and Suffering are elemental forces and that Puccini viewed the life as a conflict between these forces. Obviously we need to be careful about reading to much into such a quote that was divorced from the context of his work, but I think it is a useful framework. Basically, you can see each of Puccini's operas as a conflict between Love, embodied by a couple or even by an individual, yes, usually a woman, and a larger world of Suffering, embodied by specific characters or groups of characters, such as Pinkerton, the Zia Principessa, or Rance or Scarpia or Turandot. These characters embody a force that tries to destroy the lover, and sometimes succeeds. The conflict is not always the same. In _La boheme_, for example, the threat to love is more abstractly the poverty of the bohemians and the uncaring society, both represented by the ever present cold, which even in the warmth of the lushest Romantic music is always present: che gelida manina, after all. In Butterfly, it is Butterfly's naive but noble faith against the world. In Angelica, it is her sincere maternal love against the hyopcritical righteousness of the convent and the Zia Principessa. In Turandot, it is Liu's self-sacrificing love against Turandot's murderous hatred. Rather than being pointless torture, Liu's suffering teaches Turandot that love requires sacrificing your self for the sake of the one you love. Liu does this, and Turandot follows her example by sacrificing who she once was. Puccini said of the never completed finale that 


> it must be something great, audacious and unexpected, and not leave things simply as they are … . It must be a great duet - These two beings, who stand, so to speak, outside the world, are transformed into humans through love and this love must take possession of everybody on the stage in an orchestral peroration,[/


 and Turandot is transformed into a human being in story for the ending. In fact, she is transformed into Liu.

This is what I mean when I describe Puccini's operas as being existential. They are not social critiques or abstractly philosophical at all, you are absolutely right about that. We are not being treated to a critique of the conditions of women, but rather being immersed in the suffering of one woman. Pinkerton being a ******* isn't what we are supposed to take away from the opera, that wasn't well said on my part, but rather a required condition for the opera to take place: we can't feel the conflict between Butterfly's naive but noble faith and reality unless we know the reality that the man she idolizes is a jerk. Again, no social critique, just an existential feeling of, "The world is trying to crush me but I'm in love. and I'm going to fight or die (or both)." Walter Kauffmann described existentialism as an individualistic sensibility rather than a set of doctrines, and though Puccini's philosophy was less advanced tjan Pherekydes', who at least had three elemental forces, he had that sensibility as profoundly as any artist I know of. Every one of his lovers is in revolt against the world out there that's trying to destroy her as she clings to her love. Sometimes this is put in big letters, as in "Ei torna e m'ama" and sometimes it's subtle, as in Butterfly insisting on calling herself Madama Pinkerton but being ironically rebuked by the title of her own opera. In some cases, she wins, and Minnie, Angelica, Lauretta, and Liu are wonderfully and powerfully vindicated. Mimi, Tosca, Butterfly, Magda, and Giorgetta all lose. If you start looking for this theme, it is everywhere in Puccini's operas, and much of his greatest music is clearly motivated by it.

So why women? Well, long story short, I think he just identified with them. He had a guy side, with his hunting and cards and playing the field and fast cars, but he was shy, sensitive, "overly dandified" as Stravinsky put it, and considered an effeminate composer by critics. Again, I don't mean to suggest that he was some sort of feminist, merely that the feminine side of human nature was strong in him, as was melancholy, and so he related to suffering women. I don't see anything beyond that in it, and there's not really any way to know.

In any case, I feel that the suffering of women in Puccini's operas is meaningful and not gratuitous. Men also suffer for the same reasons: Michele's Nulla silenzio is a haunting portrayal of a man looking out into a dark world to try and find what it is that has destroyed his love but unable to find any specific cause and sinking into total despair; E lucevan le stelle is on a very similar theme, though less sophisticated; Ch'ella mi creda has the same idea; Ruggero is the one left in a puddle at the end of _La rondine_ because Magda has succumbed to the Un-Romantic world; Rodolfo watches his innocence die at the end of _La boheme_; Luigi's violent outbursts in _Tabarro_ are similarly motivated. So, although on balance his specialty was the suffering of women, I don't see it as different in kind from the way his men suffer, just in degree of frequency, and I don't think there is any evidence that he was acting out some sort of sadistic misogynistic fantasy about punishing virgin women for their sexuality, as some of his critics imply (because there's no evidence to base an outright statement on).

Yes, that was the boiled-down version.


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## Handelian (Nov 18, 2020)

vivalagentenuova said:


> I wrote a super long post, but I think I can boil it down. Maybe.
> 
> To me, the important thing is, Is the suffering of women dramatically meaningful or gratuitous? In order to decide, we have to interpret his works. Puccini once said, "Love and suffering were born with the world." I take this to mean that Love and Suffering are elemental forces and that Puccini viewed the life as a conflict between these forces. Obviously we need to be careful about reading to much into such a quote that was divorced from the context of his work, but I think it is a useful framework. Basically, you can see each of Puccini's operas as a conflict between Love, embodied by a couple or even by an individual, yes, usually a woman, and a larger world of Suffering, embodied by specific characters or groups of characters, such as Pinkerton, the Zia Principessa, or Rance or Scarpia or Turandot. These characters embody a force that tries to destroy the lover, and sometimes succeeds. The conflict is not always the same. In _La boheme_, for example, the threat to love is more abstractly the poverty of the bohemians and the uncaring society, both represented by the ever present cold, which even in the warmth of the lushest Romantic music is always present: che gelida manina, after all. In Butterfly, it is Butterfly's naive but noble faith against the world. In Angelica, it is her sincere maternal love against the hyopcritical righteousness of the convent and the Zia Principessa. In Turandot, it is Liu's self-sacrificing love against Turandot's murderous hatred. Rather than being pointless torture, Liu's suffering teaches Turandot that love requires sacrificing your self for the sake of the one you love. Liu does this, and Turandot follows her example by sacrificing who she once was. Puccini said of the never completed finale that
> and Turandot is transformed into a human being in story for the ending. In fact, she is transformed into Liu.
> ...


I think you're being far too philosophical in your assessment. We know that Pacini was a serial womaniser and that the woman he married was married when he got her pregnant. Rather fortuitously for them her husband was killed by an enraged lover which allowed them to marry but this didn't stop the composer having numerous affairs. So he obviously regarded women as something for his pleasure. Something of this comes through in butterfly. He was determined that his audience should see the seduction and corruption of the innocent Butterfly as a conscious choice by Pinkerton. We hear that Butterfly is only 15 years old three times over, as she, Sharpless and Pinkerton drive the point home relentlessly. "The age of playthings," Sharpless says. "And of sweetmeats," replies Pinkerton shortly after toasting "the day on which I'll wed in real marriage, a real wife from America". The whole thing is a plaything although Pinkerton doesn't realise that it will have such a tragic end.
Turandot was based on a fairy tale anyway, although the drawing of Liu may have been influenced by the innocent maid who was wrongly accused of adultery with Puccini by his wife and driven to suicide. Interestingly one of the few cases where the composer was innocent! Liu appears to have genuine love in contrast to the superficial and outward love of Calaf and Turandot. I always end up thinking Calaf is bonkers missing what is under his nose, especially as on stage Liu is usually better looking than Turandot! But this is opera! 
Mind you we have to then assume that Puccini wrote his operas with philosophical motives and he probably didn't. He's operas like most Italian operas were written to primarily entertain people not ram home philosophy of life. So if we look for deep meaning in Puccini we might be looking for something which isn't there


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## Sieglinde (Oct 25, 2009)

Yeah, Calaf, please get glasses. Liu is an angel and Turandot is just not into men, the finale really feels shoehorned.


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## Handelian (Nov 18, 2020)

Sieglinde said:


> Yeah, Calaf, please get glasses. Liu is an angel and Turandot is just not into men, the finale really feels shoehorned.


Puccini couldn't decide on the final love duet and died before he got round to it. Maybe he realised the whole unreality of it. But then it is opera!


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

vivalagentenuova said:


> I wrote a super long post, but I think I can boil it down. Maybe.
> 
> To me, the important thing is, Is the suffering of women dramatically meaningful or gratuitous? In order to decide, we have to interpret his works. Puccini once said, "Love and suffering were born with the world." I take this to mean that Love and Suffering are elemental forces and that Puccini viewed the life as a conflict between these forces. Obviously we need to be careful about reading to much into such a quote that was divorced from the context of his work, but I think it is a useful framework. Basically, you can see each of Puccini's operas as a conflict between Love, embodied by a couple or even by an individual, yes, usually a woman, and a larger world of Suffering, embodied by specific characters or groups of characters, such as Pinkerton, the Zia Principessa, or Rance or Scarpia or Turandot. These characters embody a force that tries to destroy the lover, and sometimes succeeds. The conflict is not always the same. In _La boheme_, for example, the threat to love is more abstractly the poverty of the bohemians and the uncaring society, both represented by the ever present cold, which even in the warmth of the lushest Romantic music is always present: che gelida manina, after all. In Butterfly, it is Butterfly's naive but noble faith against the world. In Angelica, it is her sincere maternal love against the hyopcritical righteousness of the convent and the Zia Principessa. In Turandot, it is Liu's self-sacrificing love against Turandot's murderous hatred. Rather than being pointless torture, Liu's suffering teaches Turandot that love requires sacrificing your self for the sake of the one you love. Liu does this, and Turandot follows her example by sacrificing who she once was. Puccini said of the never completed finale that
> and Turandot is transformed into a human being in story for the ending. In fact, she is transformed into Liu.
> ...


I think your "diagnosis" of Puccini as having a deep identification with women is right. He was raised in an all-female household after age six, to begin with, and it isn't hard to see his outward machismo as a sort of compensation for a tender, vulnerable nature (maybe even overcompensation, in the case of his love life). There is no question that his female characters interested him far more than most of his men; of his works, only two - the early _Edgar_ and the comedy _Gianni Schicchi_ - refer to male protagonists in their titles. I don't think anyone would argue that his young women's suffering is gratuitous, but it is most certainly cruel, mainly because it's so completely unearned, a fact to which Tosca gives voice at her moment of greatest extremity. There are plenty of victimized women in opera - victimized, specifically, by men and the world run by men. It's an inheritance of our civilization. But no composer seems to relish twisting the knife as much as Puccini. I can believe that he, in the deepest part of him where his "feminine" sensibility lived in tension with his machismo, felt the pain of his suffering heroines as the pain of his own inner female, and that giving them the most poignant music imaginable was the ultimate self-affirmation and constituted a catharsis, even an exorcism.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

Handelian said:


> At his best Puccini certainly gives a (to me) a vastly more interesting musical and dramatic experience than Wagner as he keeps the drama moving and gets inside the characters in the Italian way.


You take Puccini too seriously for my taste.


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

Puccini is among my favorite composers of opera. There is no denying the power of his operas, they are dramatically well structured, and musically he offers superb orchestration, harmonic and melodic richness. I would agree that he is underrated for all the wrong reasons.

I don't go in for comparing one composer to another, since I see them as developing their mature style exclusive of other composers. I would especially refrain from comparing Puccini to Verdi or Wagner. These three composers all succeeding in writing operas that are great vocal vehicles as well as entertaining drama.


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## ScottK (Dec 23, 2021)

silentio said:


> Nominate your most favorite Puccini's melody/aria? For me, Butterfly's entrance is the quintessential Puccini:


I love the first appearance of the Nessun Dorma theme when Calaf gives Turandot the challenge to learn his name.


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## ScottK (Dec 23, 2021)

vivalagentenuova said:


> Happy Birthday Puccini!
> 
> Like all great opera composers, Puccini ............ the simple tribute from Ravel, who upon hearing of Puccini's death remarked, "He was our brother."
> 
> Some great performances:


Somehow the title of the thread did not talk to me and I'm glad I finally came in. Loved your opening spiel! Eager to give it a slower re-read but, wonderful piece. I'm sure Puccini's folks would be very proud of those words, and that's not an attempt at humor.


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