# Beethovens eroica is one of the greatest works of Classical music



## jani (Jun 15, 2012)

So i haven't listened to Beethovens Eroica for a while, and i listened it today.
I always thought that it was great piece of music but today while listening it was more.
Imagine Beethoven learned that he will go deaf and then we hear the opening of his Eroica, its very bombastic and heroic sounding slowly changing to the sound of slight desperation, then returning to the heroic sounding theme at the end of the first movement. 

At Heiligenstadt Testament "someone heard the shepherd singing and again I heard nothing, such incidents brought me to the verge of despair, but

little more and I would have put an end to my life - only art it was that withheld me, ah it seemed impossible to leave the world"

I think its Beethoven telling to the world that he is accepting his faith but not letting it stop him, even using it as an motivator to do the best that he can do with his life.

I think that ability is one of the most admirable characteristics that a person can have.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

It's quite amazing when we return to a great work that we haven't heard for a while, and are astonished all over again by just how good it is! The Eroica certainly qualifies for that.


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## mtmailey (Oct 21, 2011)

KenOC said:


> It's quite amazing when we return to a great work that we haven't heard for a while, and are astonished all over again by just how good it is! The Eroica certainly qualifies for that.


Well i find the symphony 7 in a major sounds way better to me.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

mtmailey said:


> Well i find the symphony 7 in a major sounds way better to me.


Quite possible and many might agree. Beethoven was of a different opinion. Before he wrote his 9th:

<<One evening when B. was in a good humor, Kueffner began: 'Tell me frankly which is your favorite among your symphonies?' B. (in good humor) 'Eh! Eh! The Eroica.' K. 'I should have guessed the C minor.' B. 'No; the Eroica.'>>


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

mtmailey said:


> Well i find the symphony 7 in a major sounds way better to me.


I actually prefer the Pastoral and the Fourth Symphony to the Eroica.

What really bugs me about conductors who program the Eroica and Schubert 9th, too:

Why in heavens name must they take a 3 minute first movement exposition and feel they have to repeat it?

Do they think we missed it the first time? Maybe we went out for coffee?

Drives me up a wall, taking a long symphony and intentionally making it longer.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

hpowders said:


> Beethoven should have followed Haydn's model, 20-30 minute symphonies. Short and sweet.


 :lol: From an early review of the Pastoral: "The ending comes some time after it would have been welcome."

Re the Eroica, a very early review says, "...it plays for an hour. This is certainly overdone; after all, everything must have a limit." However, the same review goes on to say, "...this symphony is one of the most original, sublime, and profound products that music has to show for itself."


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

Heresy, hpowders, how dare you! Its my favourite symphony of LvB's. But I'd shudder to think what you'd think of Mahler. One man's heavenly length is another man's hell, I suppose.

It is my favourite symphony though of Beethoven's, or at least the one I listen to most often. My favourite moment is those grinding basses and blaring horns in the funeral march movement. It gives me the feeling of 'every dog has it's day.' The sense of a ruler being king of the castle one minute, and out with yesterday's rubbish the next. Its just brutal. The thing is that Beethoven in effect foretold Napoleon's fate, but really any ruler's fate who bites off more than he can chew. Going back, think Savanorola, going forward think Mussolini or Gaddafi, executed by their own people. The Messiah becomes the devil incarnate in no time at all. Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely, as the saying goes.

On a historical level, its among the most important symphonies of the 19th century, along with Berlioz's Symphonie Fantastique. A game changer type work of the era. In terms of its strong programmatic element and also its technical innovations. I'd argue Beethoven had the bedrock of Mozart and Haydn to build his foundations upon, but the sheer ambition and brilliance of this work is all his own. Even though he innovated and did amazing works in his early period, here Beethoven arrives as a real force to be reckoned with - and one which successive generations of composers would feel they have to measure up to. In effect, that whole Beethoven legend or Beethoven myth is in good measure is based on this work.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

The Eroica is fantastic. It is right up there with the Sixth and the Ninth as my three favorites.


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

hpowders said:


> I actually prefer the Pastoral and the Fourth Symphony to the Eroica.
> 
> What really bugs me about conductors who program the Eroica and Schubert 9th, too:
> 
> ...


Maybe for the people that don't get to hear it live very often or don't know it as well?
Just a thought.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

hpowders said:


> Why in heavens name must they take a 3 minute first movement exposition and feel they have to repeat it? Do they think we missed it the first time? Maybe we went out for coffee?


Beethoven was unsure whether to repeat the exposition or not, considering the work's unaccustomed length and, on the other hand, its unusual complexity. As reported by his brother, he rehearsed it both ways over several days, and finally decided to write in the repeat. But it was a near thing. Today, when we're all very familiar with the symphony, the repeat probably isn't needed -- but Beethoven's hesitant decision is usually treated as gospel!


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## GGluek (Dec 11, 2011)

I'm on record saying it's on my short list of greatest symphonies ever written, but that and three bucks will get you a cup of coffee.


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## Guest (Apr 3, 2014)

mtmailey said:


> Well i find the symphony 7 in a major sounds way better to me.


But do you agree that the Eroica sounds good?


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

The Eroica is simply one of the greatest and most ground breaking symphonies ever written by anyone. We can argue whether it's as good as 7 or 9 et al. The fact is that what came after it wax also remarkable.


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## Headphone Hermit (Jan 8, 2014)

Well, the 3rd is great ..... it is one of the greatest works of classical music.

the 7th is great ..... it is one of the greatest works of classical music.

the 6th is great ..... it is one of the greatest works of classical music.

the 9th is great ..... it is one of the greatest works of classical music.

the 8th is great ..... it is one of the greatest works of classical music.

the 5th is great ..... it is one of the greatest works of classical music.

anyone want to disagree? :devil:

I have dozens of works that I'd say are great :lol:


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Itullian said:


> Maybe for the people that don't get to hear it live very often or don't know it as well?
> Just a thought.


I believe it's because some conductors feel it's "stylistically correct" to take any and all first movement exposition repeats, no matter what.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Headphone Hermit said:


> Well, the 3rd is great ..... it is one of the greatest works of classical music.
> 
> the 7th is great ..... it is one of the greatest works of classical music.
> 
> ...


I agree with your assessment of the 6th.


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## jani (Jun 15, 2012)

My favorite performance of eroica that i have heard.
Great speed, period instruments, great dynamics etc...
Fire&passion!


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## Polyphemus (Nov 2, 2011)

:tiphat::tiphat::tiphat:There are many 'Great' works but I do agree the Eroica is right up there slightly below my own LVB favourite the Seventh. I would not dare to disagree hpowders


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Polyphemus said:


> :tiphat:There are many 'Great' works but I do agree the Eroica is right up there slightly below my own LVB favourite the Seventh. I would not dare to disagree hpowders


Please do. Everyone has a right to one's own opinion.

Like what you like. Plenty of good music for every taste. I've written this I don't know how many times already on TC.


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## KRoad (Jun 1, 2012)

hpowders said:


> Please do. I'm nothing special.
> 
> It's all a matter of individual preferences. Like what you like and don't let anyone sway you away from what you love.


Well, in that case... the 8th.


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## Guest (Apr 3, 2014)

> Winning!
> I have on gear, GO!
> Epic winning!
> Do you love Ludwig Van Beethovens music?
> ...


Am I allowed to ask how old you are, jani-san?


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## jani (Jun 15, 2012)

arcaneholocaust said:


> Am I allowed to ask how old you are, jani-san?


21, i know that i might seem to be much younger.


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## Guest (Apr 3, 2014)

Fair enough + some extra characters


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## jani (Jun 15, 2012)

arcaneholocaust said:


> Fair enough + some extra characters


When i was studying to be a chef, on first year one of my teachers asked if i have ADHD.


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## Xaltotun (Sep 3, 2010)

What the Eroica communicates to me is that we must cease worshipping and following men, and start worshipping and following idea(l)s. Men die, ideas are like diamonds and are forever. It's like Plato in four movements!


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Xaltotun said:


> What the Eroica communicates to me is that we must cease worshipping and following men, and start worshipping and following idea(l)s. Men die, ideas are like diamonds and are forever. It's like Plato in four movements!


Would you feel the same if Beethoven had kept the symphony's original name, "Bonaparte"?


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## Blake (Nov 6, 2013)

Xaltotun said:


> What the Eroica communicates to me is that we must cease worshipping and following men, and start worshipping and following idea(l)s. Men die, ideas are like diamonds and are forever. It's like Plato in four movements!


If ideas have a beginning, they will have an end.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

hpowders said:


> Please do. Everyone has a right to one's own opinion.
> 
> Like what you like. Plenty of good music for every taste. I've written this I don't know how many times already on TC.


That's true, and to paraphrase the saying, I might not agree with what you say but I'll defend your right to say it (apparently its not by Voltaire, who its commonly attributed to). Apt in this discussion of a symphony so central to the ideals of the Enlightenment, isn't it, and relevant now as in Beethoven's time?


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## Petwhac (Jun 9, 2010)

Repeating the exposition in the Eroica, or any other other classical symphony (or sonata) has nothing to do with the audience being unfamiliar with the material. It has everything to do with balance, symmetry and architecture.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Petwhac said:


> Repeating the exposition in the Eroica, or any other other classical symphony (or sonata) has nothing to do with the audience being unfamiliar with the material. It has everything to do with balance, symmetry and architecture.


I don't agree with that, nor evidently do some others. Beethoven, for instance (per a letter written by his brother described above) was concerned with the exposition repeat only as it affected the ability of unfamiliar listeners to properly appreciate what followed and its impact on the overall length of the work. Issues of balance, symmetry, or architecture (aside from the length) were not mentioned as factors.

But then I tend to edit out exposition repeats in Schubert...


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## Petwhac (Jun 9, 2010)

KenOC said:


> I don't agree with that, nor evidently do some others. Beethoven, for instance (per a letter written by his brother described above) was concerned with the exposition repeat only as it affected the ability of unfamiliar listeners to properly appreciate what followed and its impact on the overall length of the work. Issues of balance, symmetry, or architecture (aside from the length) were not mentioned as factors.
> 
> But then I tend to edit out exposition repeats in Schubert...


He may have been concerned as he had just practically doubled the length of the average (?) symphony for the time. But I believe, repeating the exposition is integral to the _form_.

Why would B write the repeat in the score complete with 1st time bar if it must not be so? (Muss es seine?) As shown here in the 1st edition of 1809.









I will seek out the letter as it interests me. But whether or not one decides to leave out the repeat of the expo, the repeat is not there to serve the listener's memory. Otherwise why would a short sonata movement, even a mono thematic one have such a repeat?

In certain circumstances, governed by the nature of the material, such as the late A major piano sonata, no repeat of the expo is asked for. But in the Eroica it is.

Really, if the view is, since we know the work now, why repeat the expo? We may as well ask why bother with the recap?:lol:


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Petwhac said:


> Really, if the view is, since we know the work now, why repeat the expo? We may as well ask why bother with the recap?:lol:


A bit of a red herring. The main purpose of the recap is to resolve the tensions set up by the expo and the working out, as the main themes are finally brought into alignment in the same key. This is not (in theory) a simple repeat of what went before and, the experts tell us, has a pronounced psychological effect. As for myself, I say skip all that and on to the coda!


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

Petwhac said:


> Really, if the view is, since we know the work now, why repeat the expo? We may as well ask why bother with the recap?:lol:


Because the recap, beginning with the opening theme, is crucially different than the exposition and the differences are integral to the movement's coherence.


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

KenOC said:


> A bit of a red herring. The main purpose of the recap is to resolve the tensions set up by the expo and the working out, as the main themes are finally brought into alignment in the same key. This is not (in theory) a simple repeat of what went before and, the experts tell us, has a pronounced psychological effect. As for myself, I say skip all that and on to the coda!


The recap does not resolve most of the tensions of the exposition - in fact, it pointedly avoids doing so. In any case, the difference in key between the principal themes has virtually nothing to do with the major tensions of the movement and, given the tense coda that follows, any tonal resolution accomplished by moving the theme to tonic would be utterly insignificant in the grand scheme.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

EdwardBast said:


> The recap does not resolve most of the tensions of the exposition - in fact, it pointedly avoids doing so. In any case, the difference in key between the principal themes has virtually nothing to do with the major tensions of the movement and, given the tense coda that follows, any tonal resolution accomplished by moving the theme to tonic would be utterly insignificant in the grand scheme.


In the case of the Eroica, I believe you are correct. I was speaking more generally of "classical" sonata form. In the Eroica, it takes the coda to properly sort things out. My memory says that Rosen goes into this in detail in "The Classical Style."


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## Petwhac (Jun 9, 2010)

EdwardBast said:


> Because the recap, beginning with the opening theme, is crucially different than the exposition and the differences are integral to the movement's coherence.


So is the repeat of the exposition integral to the movement's coherence.
The reason I made that comment (jokingly) is that it shows up the claim that unfamiliar material needs to be repeated. 
Once we know a sonata ( a symphony being a sonata) we know what's coming. If repeating the expo is to make sure we remember the themes, it is only for the first hearing. Who writes a symphony to be listen to only once?


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Petwhac said:


> So is the repeat of the exposition integral to the movement's coherence.
> The reason I made that comment (jokingly) is that it shows up the claim that unfamiliar material needs to be repeated.
> Once we know a sonata ( a symphony being a sonata) we know what's coming. If repeating the expo is to make sure we remember the themes, it is only for the first hearing. Who writes a symphony to be listen to only once?


200 years ago, you might hear a major work once and not again for years, if then. Neither Beethoven's 4th Symphony nor Violin Concerto was heard again after their premieres (so far as is known) for 30 or 40 years... This is hardly any record of any of Beethoven's piano sonatas being performed publically in his lifetime. Ditto string quartets -- the first professional quartet, that would give concerts, wasn't established until 1808. Things were a tad different then.


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## Petwhac (Jun 9, 2010)

Any tension is the tension between keys, not themes. Themes exists to articulate key. The development section is harmonically unstable and takes the movement into unchartered territory so to speak. If the the expo is not repeated then that too becomes uncharted territory because we have only heard things once. The journey from A to B which the expo presents must be repeated for it to be properly _established_. Then, when we reach the end of the expo for the second time we are off. The recap brings a double resolution as we return and don't really set off again where once we did. Other keys may be visited in the recap and coda but none is properly _established_, IE prepared for.


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## Petwhac (Jun 9, 2010)

KenOC said:


> 200 years ago, you might hear a major work once and not again for years, if then. Neither Beethoven's 4th Symphony nor Violin Concerto was heard again (so far as is known) for 30 or 40 years... *This is hardly any record of any of Beethoven's piano sonatas being performed publically in his lifetime. Ditto string quartets -- the first professional quartet, that would give concerts, wasn't established until 1808. Things were a tad different then.*


*
*

[my bold] So why do repeated expositions appear in them?

And it is no composer's _intention_ to have only one performance. If that were the reason for the repeat, the composer would just have the whole piece on a loop!


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Petwhac said:


> [/B] [my bold] So why do repeated expositions appear in them?


Precisely because when the *were* heard, publically or privately, they would likely be unfamiliar to their listeners. Performances were rare, for the most part. Few people could afford CDs and iPods were primitive...don't even ask about Internet speeds... :lol:


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## senza sordino (Oct 20, 2013)

I love this symphony, it is one of the greatest pieces of music ever written, in my ever so humble opinion. I am listening right now to HvK with Berlin, 1963. At 5:47 min of the first movement there are a few hammer chords, just sublime that to me say, the classical age is over, let's remove our powdered wigs and let our hair down and run wild. These chords are complex, it's the shape of things to come. The end of one era and the start of something completely new.


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## Petwhac (Jun 9, 2010)

KenOC said:


> Precisely because when the *were* heard, publically or privately, they would likely be unfamiliar to their listeners. Performances were rare, for the most part. Few people could afford CDs and iPods were primitive...don't even ask about Internet speeds... :lol:


We'll, when I'm invited to conduct the combined orchestras of the Berlin Phil, the Chicago symph and the BBC symph at a gala performance of the Eroica for Obama, The Queen and the Pope, I shall definitely repeat the expo!


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Petwhac said:


> We'll, when I'm invited to conduct the combined orchestras of the Berlin Phil, the Chicago symph and the BBC symph at a gala performance of the Eroica for Obama, The Queen and the Pope, I shall definitely repeat the expo!


Well, if they've heard it too often, they may tend to doze off in the repeat. You should probably use the Busoni edition with the cannon, just in case.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

I really love the BBC film, Eroica, which tells of the supposed events of the first performance.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=M3PzPKD5ACA

I know that historically it might not be wholly accurate but the atmosphere and the portrayal of Beethoven are great. There is also a really good performance of the symphony (no exposition repeat) conducted by Gardiner. Great entertainment!


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

DavidA said:


> I really love the BBC film, Eroica, which tells of the supposed events of the first performance.
> 
> www.youtube.com/watch?v=M3PzPKD5ACA
> 
> I know that historically it might not be wholly accurate but the atmosphere and the portrayal of Beethoven are great. There is also a really good performance of the symphony (no exposition repeat) conducted by Gardiner. Great entertainment!


A very fun film, with a lot of truth in it. But now everybody thinks Haydn actually attended those rehearsals! In fact, there's no evidence he ever heard the Eroica. Oh well...can't stand in the way of a good story (which this is).


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

Petwhac said:


> So is the repeat of the exposition integral to the movement's coherence.
> The reason I made that comment (jokingly) is that it shows up the claim that unfamiliar material needs to be repeated.
> Once we know a sonata ( a symphony being a sonata) we know what's coming. If repeating the expo is to make sure we remember the themes, it is only for the first hearing. Who writes a symphony to be listen to only once?


I think most composers in Beethoven's day thinking about making the best possible impression at a premiere might effectively be writing a symphony to be heard once, although Beethoven probably had his eye on posterity. I think the evidence Ken cites suggests Beethoven could have gone either way. I personally could do without the repeat of the exposition but I also acknowledge your point about balance.


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

Petwhac said:


> Any tension is the tension between keys, not themes. Themes exists to articulate key.


In the case of the Eroica's first movement, there is enormous tension between the branches of the principal theme. The contrasting part on the dominant (m. 23ff.) is developed in a dramatic opposition to the principal phrases throughout the movement. Both parts of the theme are in the tonic key. Moreover, a major part of the tension is rhythmic or metric, as the part on the dominant introduces prominent duple accents that are a strong force for chaos in the development, leading up to the climax before the "new theme" in E minor. So in this case, I would say the tensions are primarily thematic in a broad sense and tonal tensions only play a supporting role.

The general point, that "themes exists to articulate key," sounds bizarre to me. Rosen was leaning in that direction, but I think he was just generally wrong in thinking tonic dominant polarity was essential to Beethoven. Beethoven was quite ready to dispense with the dominant as the main secondary key area by his middle period. Submediant, or mediant major were just as good for him, apparently.

In short, and though this might sound obvious, I think the primary role of themes is thematic!


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## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

EdwardBast said:


> The general point, that "themes exists to articulate key," sounds bizarre to me. Rosen was leaning in that direction, but I think he was just generally wrong in thinking tonic dominant polarity was essential to Beethoven. Beethoven was quite ready to dispense with the dominant as the main secondary key area by his middle period. Submediant, or mediant major were just as good for him, apparently.


Rosen talks a good bit at length about Beethoven's use of alternate keys such as the submediant as dominant substitutes, and his argument is that Beethoven makes use of these keys as if they were dominants, to heighten tension, but Romantic composers used them as subdominants, to lessen tension.


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## Petwhac (Jun 9, 2010)

EdwardBast said:


> In the case of the Eroica's first movement, there is enormous tension between the branches of the principal theme. The contrasting part on the dominant (m. 23ff.) is developed in a dramatic opposition to the principal phrases throughout the movement. Both parts of the theme are in the tonic key. Moreover, a major part of the tension is rhythmic or metric, as the part on the dominant introduces prominent duple accents that are a strong force for chaos in the development, leading up to the climax before the "new theme" in E minor. So in this case, I would say the tensions are primarily thematic in a broad sense and tonal tensions only play a supporting role.
> 
> The general point, that "themes exists to articulate key," sounds bizarre to me. Rosen was leaning in that direction, but I think he was just generally wrong in thinking tonic dominant polarity was essential to Beethoven. Beethoven was quite ready to dispense with the dominant as the main secondary key area by his middle period. Submediant, or mediant major were just as good for him, apparently.
> 
> In short, and though this might sound obvious, I think the primary role of themes is thematic!


I didn't say anything about tonic/dominant polarity, merely about establishing a new key. When I refer to tension I take it to mean _structural_ tension not psychological/expressive tension which is something that can be felt to occur anywhere in the course of a piece.

The root level of the architecture of a classical (and later) sonata is harmonic. Whether there is one distinct theme or one hundred, one thing all sonata movements will do is start in one key and through means of transition and preparation, establish a new key at the end of the exposition.

I'm not sure what exactly Rosen was referring to when he said that I-V polarity was essential to Beethoven. I suspect he may have been talking not just about large scale structure but also about local harmony. In which case I think I agree. I am always struck by how Beethoven, even in his later period can reduce the harmony to I-V for some passages and still extract maximum expressive impact.


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## Haydn man (Jan 25, 2014)

I feel somewhat ashamed after such learned posts to say
I really like the Eroica it's nearly good enough to have been written by Haydn


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## Alydon (May 16, 2012)

I have always thought the Eroica as the turning point in Beethoven's art & still find it mighty, disturbing and at time a difficult work to get on with. I certainly wouldn't play this symphony very often or just in the background but when I do it knocks me out, and in a paradoxical way even if you don't like the Erocia, you know deep down it is one of the greatest works ever written.


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

Mahlerian said:


> Rosen talks a good bit at length about Beethoven's use of alternate keys such as the submediant as dominant substitutes, and his argument is that Beethoven makes use of these keys as if they were dominants, to heighten tension, but Romantic composers used them as subdominants, to lessen tension.


I'm not impressed with the substitution argument. The submediant is only a substitute for the dominant in as much as it occurs where the dominant is expected. It is not a functional substitute. I read this view as just Rosen trying to rationalize exceptions to his dogmatic essentializing about the classical style.


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

Petwhac said:


> I didn't say anything about tonic/dominant polarity, merely about establishing a new key. When I refer to tension I take it to mean _structural_ tension not psychological/expressive tension which is something that can be felt to occur anywhere in the course of a piece.


You seem to be suggesting that only harmonic tension is structural. I would argue that traditional tonal/harmonic tensions were insufficient to hold together a sonata structure on the massive scale of the Eroica's opening movement, and that what is revolutionary about Beethoven's approach is that he instead exploited thematic processes in the form of systematically developed thematic and motivic oppositions as the primary source of structural tension. In developing these oppositions, the duple vs. triple metric tension that runs from the opening theme until the end of the coda was at least as important as the tensions of harmony and key.



Petwhac said:


> The root level of the architecture of a classical (and later) sonata is harmonic. Whether there is one distinct theme or one hundred, one thing all sonata movements will do is start in one key and through means of transition and preparation, establish a new key at the end of the exposition.


In the nineteenth century sonata form was generally described as a thematic schemata, with Reicha's famous formulation being a prominent example. The change of key, of course, helped to articulate the secondary theme, but it wasn't foregrounded as the essential element. Same is true in A.B. Marx's didactic work on composition. He too stressed a thematic schemata with principal and secondary themes of certain general character types. The argument you make about root architecture seems, in its application to sonata forms after the classical era, to be an anachronistic one created by modern theorists.


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## EDaddy (Nov 16, 2013)

The Eroica is, without a doubt, my favorite Beethoven symphony... even more so than the 9th, which is a pretty close second. It was certainly the most ground-breaking, forward thinking and original symphony of its time. It changed the game entirely, and still stands as a leviathan among all symphonies.


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

*Hugely overrated, like Mozart is hugely overrated.*

Beethoven's third is hugely overrated, just like Mozart is hugely overrated.

:lol::lol::tiphat:


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## Selby (Nov 17, 2012)

I would never deny the power and genius of the Eroica, but I never want to sit through it again.


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## Guest (Apr 6, 2014)

PetrB said:


> Beethoven's third is hugely overrated, just like Mozart is hugely overrated.
> 
> :lol::lol::tiphat:


Rating is hugely overrated....


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## Alydon (May 16, 2012)

PetrB said:


> Beethoven's third is hugely overrated, just like Mozart is hugely overrated.
> 
> :lol::lol::tiphat:


The 'overrated' arguments on this site and elsewhere always puzzle and amuse me in equal measure. I hardly think a poll of all the great conductors, musicians and paying audiences overrate this or any other great work or composer. Who on earth is overrating the Eroica in this instance and why? If anything compared to other art forms this work and thousands of others are sadly underrated as the majority of the population have never listened to them or heard of them and until we can create an educational system which allows everyone to gain an appreciation (and critical understanding) of this art form let's leave this type of argument in the freezer.


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## Petwhac (Jun 9, 2010)

EdwardBast said:


> You seem to be suggesting that only harmonic tension is structural. I would argue that traditional tonal/harmonic tensions were insufficient to hold together a sonata structure on the massive scale of the Eroica's opening movement, and that what is revolutionary about Beethoven's approach is that he instead exploited thematic processes in the form of systematically developed thematic and motivic oppositions as the primary source of structural tension. In developing these oppositions, the duple vs. triple metric tension that runs from the opening theme until the end of the coda was at least as important as the tensions of harmony and key.


I agree that the expansion of the form which the Eroica represents relies in part, on thematic and motivic development. But the form itself is at it's most basic level, an harmonic construct.



EdwardBast said:


> In the nineteenth century sonata form was generally described as a thematic schemata, with Reicha's famous formulation being a prominent example. *The change of key, of course, helped to articulate the secondary theme, but it wasn't foregrounded as the essential element. *Same is true in A.B. Marx's didactic work on composition. He too stressed a thematic schemata with principal and secondary themes of certain general character types. The argument you make about root architecture seems, in its application to sonata forms after the classical era, to be an anachronistic one created by modern theorists.


That is a curious assertion (in bold). I would say it is the _only_ essential element.

If someone were to say to me "I'm now going to present you with a sonata-allegro movement by either
Haydn, Mozart, Spohr, Hummel, Cherubini or any other classical era composer, and it's in D major.", I would not be able to say anything, before I heard it, about the character of or number of the themes, the phrase lengths, the use or not of counterpoint etc. But one thing I could categorically state is that by the end of the exposition, we would be in A major.

In sonata forms of later era it is impossible to predict which key we would move to but there is no doubt we would move to another key, not just move through but fully establish it.

Originally I was debating the repeat or not of the exposition and apart from pragmatic considerations of performance length etc, I have never heard a convincing argument for omitting the repeat in a classical sonata movement including the Eroica 1st movement. Doing so would simply tilt the balance of centre so to speak. Especially given the size and weight of the development in the work.


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## shangoyal (Sep 22, 2013)

Perhaps the only Beethoven symphony where all four movements have been my favourites at different times. The finale is currently my favourite - a piece of great vigour and passion, a high point in an almost unmatched musical career.


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## tdc (Jan 17, 2011)

Petwhac said:


> I have never heard a convincing argument for omitting the repeat in a classical sonata movement including the Eroica 1st movement. Doing so would simply tilt the balance of centre so to speak. Especially given the size and weight of the development in the work.


Time considerations and the fact that many have already heard the piece many times and feel the piece is more enjoyable without the repeat are more convincing arguments in my opinion than a vague claim to "symmetry" and "balance of center". If these things were as important as you are making them out to be, they would be self apparent already to everyone and there would be no controversy. In reality you are just using these terms "balance" and "symmetry" to attempt to justify a highly subjective position. You prefer the repeats - that is fine. But to make the claim that the form is automatically lessened or ruined by simply removing a repeat I think requires more proof than anything you've provided which appears to be just a subjective viewpoint.


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## Petwhac (Jun 9, 2010)

tdc said:


> Time considerations and the fact that many have already heard the piece many times and feel the piece is more enjoyable without the repeat are more convincing arguments in my opinion than a vague claim to "symmetry" and "balance of center". If these things were as important as you are making them out to be, they would be self apparent already to everyone and there would be no controversy. In reality you are just using these terms "balance" and "symmetry" to attempt to justify a highly subjective position. You prefer the repeats - that is fine. But to make the claim that the form is automatically lessened or ruined by simply removing a repeat I think requires more proof than anything you've provided which appears to be just a subjective viewpoint.


I do not accept the proposition that because "many have already heard the piece many times", there is no need to repeat the exposition. By that logic one could say that since the piece has been heard many times before there is no need to repeat anything. Or even hear the piece again. Repetition is part and parcel of music. It has an _effect_. Repeating the exposition gives much more significance to the onward journey of the development section. Did Brahms continue to ask for a repeated exposition? Did Mahler? Bruckner?

Each performance of a piece is a distinct entity that occurs through time. When the music reaches the end of the exposition after the repeat the music takes a _new _turn. It is a new turn _because_ we might put it "we have been here before and went back to the beginning, now we are here again and this time we're going somewhere else." It has a psychological effect and much is made of it by composers, not always but often.


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## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

Petwhac said:


> I do not accept the proposition that because "many have already heard the piece many times", there is no need to repeat the exposition. By that logic one could say that since the piece has been heard many times before there is no need to repeat anything. Or even hear the piece again. Repetition is part and parcel of music. It has an _effect_. Repeating the exposition gives that much more significance to the development section. Did Brahms continue to ask for a repeated exposition? Did Mahler? Bruckner?


Brahms did in the 1st. Mahler did in his 1st and 6th. Bruckner never did.


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## Petwhac (Jun 9, 2010)

Mahlerian said:


> Brahms did in the 1st. Mahler did in his 1st and 6th. Bruckner never did.


Mahlers 2 and 4 as well. What about non literal repeats, written out and varied repeats which are structurally the same?


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

When a first movement exposition takes 3 minutes or longer, there is absolutely no need to repeat the section. If I want to hear the exposition again, I will simply play the movement over again. Any "structural" argument for repeating such an epic exposition is weak. Music should be pleasurable to listen to, not tedious.

I prefer my Schubert 9th and Beethoven Eroica (when I rarely listen to it)) minus the first movement repeats as Arturo Toscanini conducted them. Toscanini was manic about following a composer's wishes. If he did not repeat the first movement expositions, he had good reason.


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## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

Petwhac said:


> Mahlers 2 and 4 as well. What about non literal repeats, written out and varied repeats which are structurally the same?


No, there are no exposition repeats in either Mahler's 2nd or 4th, literal or non-literal. I am quite sure of this. They move straight from exposition into development.

Edit: The first movement of the 3rd, on the other hand, basically has a double exposition.


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## Petwhac (Jun 9, 2010)

hpowders said:


> I'm liking Bruckner more and more.
> 
> When a first movement exposition takes 3 minutes or longer, there is absolutely no need to repeat the section. If I want to hear the exposition again, I will simply play the movement over again. Any "structural" argument for repeating such an epic exposition is weak. Music should be pleasurable to listen to, not tedious.
> 
> I prefer my Schubert 9th and Beethoven Eroica (when forced to listen to it) minus the first movement repeats as Arturo Toscanini conducted them. Toscanini was manic about following a composer's wishes. If he did not repeat the first movement expositions, he had good reason.


You say my argument is weak but at least I have made an argument for it based on my understanding of the form. 
You have merely dismissed my argument on the basis of what you find to be tedious or not. Which is a far weaker case.


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## Petwhac (Jun 9, 2010)

Mahlerian said:


> No, there are no exposition repeats in either Mahler's 2nd or 4th, literal or non-literal. I am quite sure of this. They move straight from exposition into development.
> 
> Edit: The first movement of the 3rd, on the other hand, basically has a double exposition.


I think you are mistaken and will return when I have dug out my scores.


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## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

Petwhac said:


> I think you are mistaken and will return when I have dug out my scores.


There was an exposition repeat in the second movement of the 5th, but it was deleted in revision. There's also a repeat of the first part of the scherzo of the 1st and a da capo in the Purgatorio of the 10th, but really, I think after that we've exhausted the list of times Mahler put in the repeat sign...


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## Petwhac (Jun 9, 2010)

Mahlerian said:


> There was an exposition repeat in the second movement of the 5th, but it was deleted in revision. There's also a repeat of the first part of the scherzo of the 1st and a da capo in the Purgatorio of the 10th, but really, I think after that we've exhausted the list of times Mahler put in the repeat sign...


Ok, on the occurrence of repeat signs I'm sure you're right but in Mahler 2 for example the exposition moves from it's opening C minor to an E major section and then at bar 64 the opening returns in C minor for what is like a greatly expanded repeat of the exposition but which contains much thematic development and even introduces new material. It could be viewed as going straight on to the development section but I see it as a double exposition, the second part of which is a variation, with the development proper, which is quite short, beginning at bar 254.

In post classical era sonata movements exact repeats are much rarer and in general thematic material undergoes much more constant development and expansion. And therefore the balancing of sections becomes much less about repeat signs. I would still say the structures have key areas and their relationships as the fundamental organising principal. Obviously over time, key became less important until it was finally dispensed with by some.

For Beethoven, if he put repeat signs in, I'd follow them.


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## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

Petwhac said:


> Ok, on the occurrence of repeat signs I'm sure you're right but in Mahler 2 for example the exposition moves from it's opening C minor to an E major section and then at bar 64 the opening returns in C minor for what is like a greatly expanded repeat of the exposition but which contains much thematic development and even introduces new material. It could be viewed as going straight on to the development section but I see it as a double exposition, the second part of which is a variation, with the development proper, which is quite short, beginning at bar 254.


The key may seem to return to C minor briefly, but it moves off as quickly as bar 71 towards A-flat major for the chorale, and then G minor. You can say that the exposition concludes there if you want (as that's more traditional than the E major of the second theme), and the development begins with the presentation of the second theme on the dominant of C major, but not some 100+ bars later...everything from there to 4 bars after rehearsal number 20 (by score doesn't have bar numbers) is development for sure, no matter how you look at it.


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

Petwhac said:


> I agree that the expansion of the form which the Eroica represents relies in part, on thematic and motivic development. But the form itself is at it's most basic level, an harmonic construct.


If by "at its most basic level" you mean as the form evolved out of binary and rounded binary forms and for the subsequent 50 years of its existence, I agree entirely. And similarly what you say about Haydn, Mozart, Spohr, Hummel, Cherubini seems entirely right to me. Also, in this era, there was no standard expectation about the number of themes that might be used to articulate this harmonic construct. Mozart might commonly have five clear themes within an exposition while still observing the standard key scheme; Haydn, on the other hand, might have only one and perhaps a close variant.

But the form evolved! In the nineteenth century, so-called text book sonata form was codified, usually, as I described, as a schemata of thematic events, with the exposition consisting of principal theme, transition, secondary theme, closing. This format seems to have come from studying the most admired works of Beethoven and Mozart which exemplify this format. The thematic schemata, after all, closely approximates the first movements of masterpieces like the first movements of the Appassionata and the Fifth Symphony.

Part of the confusion and seeming disagreement in our dialogue probably stems from the fact that the term sonata form is applied indiscriminately to everything from the first movement of one of CPE Bach's Prussian Sonatas, to the opening movement of Shostakovich's Tenth symphony. Two such movements share nothing essential except that they are part of the same evolutionary history. Saying they are both in sonata form is like equating a Tyrannosaurus Rex with a chicken.



Petwhac said:


> In sonata forms of later era it is impossible to predict which key we would move to but there is no doubt we would move to another key, not just move through but fully establish it.


This is true. What I was suggesting is that the persistence of this trait in sonata forms does not mean that the trait has the same significance in, say Tchaikovsky, as it does in Mozart. The nature of the tensions created and resolved in works by these composers might have entirely different bases, despite the fact that they share this trait. And the same might be said of the Eroica and a symphony of Haydn.



Petwhac said:


> Originally I was debating the repeat or not of the exposition and apart from pragmatic considerations of performance length etc, I have never heard a convincing argument for omitting the repeat in a classical sonata movement including the Eroica 1st movement. Doing so would simply tilt the balance of centre so to speak. Especially given the size and weight of the development in the work.


A reasonable argument, as I have said. But I also don't find it mysterious that Beethoven seems to have been ready to dispense with the repeat and could have gone either way.


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## Petwhac (Jun 9, 2010)

EdwardBast said:


> If by "at its most basic level" you mean as the form evolved out of binary and rounded binary forms and for the subsequent 50 years of its existence, I agree entirely. And similarly what you say about Haydn, Mozart, Spohr, Hummel, Cherubini seems entirely right to me. Also, in this era, there was no standard expectation about the number of themes that might be used to articulate this harmonic construct. Mozart might commonly have five clear themes within an exposition while still observing the standard key scheme; Haydn, on the other hand, might have only one and perhaps a close variant.
> 
> But the form evolved! In the nineteenth century, so-called text book sonata form was codified, usually, as I described, as a schemata of thematic events, with the exposition consisting of principal theme, transition, secondary theme, closing. This format seems to have come from studying the most admired works of Beethoven and Mozart which exemplify this format. The thematic schemata, after all, closely approximates the first movements of masterpieces like the first movements of the Appassionata and the Fifth Symphony.
> 
> ...


All you have said seems entirely reasonable. Perhaps Beethoven would be happy to dispense with the repeat occasionally if not always. I'm sure he'd be gratified that we were discussing it 200 years later!


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

Thankfully I am blissfully ignorant. I have no idea what the repeat is, or an exposition, or any of this stuff, but when I hear the Eroica I love it.


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## tdc (Jan 17, 2011)

Petwhac said:


> I do not accept the proposition that because "many have already heard the piece many times", there is no need to repeat the exposition. By that logic one could say that since the piece has been heard many times before there is no need to repeat anything. Or even hear the piece again.


This does not follow my line of reasoning and is clearly not logical at all. The fact is in Beethoven's time the majority of classical music listeners would not get a chance to hear the Eroica very often, (how many people that lived in the time of Beethoven and were lucky enough to hear this symphony even heard it more than once?). So repeating the exposition then made a lot more sense as it would give the listener valuable familiarity with the thematic material.

We now live in the era of recorded music. If Beethoven was wavering on repeating the exposition then, one can be almost certain if he had the choice today he would remove the exposition repeat.


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## Petwhac (Jun 9, 2010)

tdc said:


> This does not follow my line of reasoning and is clearly not logical at all. The fact is in Beethoven's time the majority of classical music listeners would not get a chance to hear the Eroica very often, (how many people that lived in the time of Beethoven and were lucky enough to hear this symphony even heard it more than once?). So repeating the exposition then made a lot more sense as it would give the listener valuable familiarity with the thematic material.
> 
> We now live in the era of recorded music. If Beethoven was wavering on repeating the exposition then, one can be almost certain if he had the choice today he would remove the exposition repeat.


You may be "almost certain" but I am not. We'll never know.

What do you think about all the repeat signs in the piano sonatas. Even the late ones. Do you think they should be observed? What about the variations when each is AABB?

Some sonatas do not ask for repeated exposition and some do. Why?


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## tdc (Jan 17, 2011)

Petwhac said:


> You may be "almost certain" but I am not. We'll never know.
> 
> What do you think about all the repeat signs in the piano sonatas. Even the late ones. Do you think they should be observed? What about the variations when each is AABB?
> 
> Some sonatas do not ask for repeated exposition and some do. Why?


I think the exposition repeats should be at the discretion of the performer. Why would anyone take out the variations? Your final question is one for Beethoven, I could only speculate. I'm guessing you think it has to do with the balance and symmetry, but are those things really a prominent feature of Beethoven's music? I mean clearly for Bach - yes. Beethoven? I'm not sure I'm convinced of that.


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## Cheyenne (Aug 6, 2012)

Allow me to quote from Mencken's very commendable essay on Beethoven, which can be found in full here:

Surely the Nineteenth Century was not deficient in master musicians. It produced Schubert, Schumann, Chopin, Wagner and Brahms, to say nothing of a whole horde of Dvořáks, Tschaikowskys, Debussys, Verdis, and Puccinis. Yet it gave us nothing better than the first movement of the Eroica. That movement, the first challenge of the new music, remains its last word. It is the noblest piece of absolute music ever written in sonata form, and it is the noblest piece of programme music. ... The older I grow, the more I am convinced that the most portentous phenomenon in the whole history of music was the first public performance of the Eroica on April 7, 1805. The manufacturers of programme notes have swathed that gigantic work in so many layers of banal legend and speculation that its intrinsic merits have been almost forgotten. Was it dedicated to Napoleon I? If so, was the dedication sincere or ironical? Who cares - that is, who with ears? It might have been dedicated, just as well, to Louis XIV, Paracelsus or Pontius Pilate. What makes it worth discussing, today and forever, is the fact that on its very first page Beethoven threw his hat into the ring and laid his claim to immortality. Bang! - and he is off. No compromise! No easy bridge from the past! The second symphony is already miles behind. A new order of music has been born. The very manner of it is full of challenge. There is no sneaking into the foul business by way of a mellifluous and disarming introduction; no preparatory hemming and hawing to cajole the audience and enable the conductor to find his place in the score. Nay! Out of silence comes the angry crash of the tonic triad, and then at once, with no pause, the first statement of the first subject - grim, domineering, harsh, raucous, and yet curiously lovely - with its astounding collision with that electrical C sharp. The carnage has begun early; we are only in the seventh measure. In the thirteenth and fourteenth comes the incomparable roll down the simple scale of E flat - and what follows is all that has ever been said, perhaps all that ever will be said, about music-making in the grand manner. What was afterward done, even by Beethoven, was done in the light of that perfect example. Every line of modern music that is honestly music bears some sort of relation to that epoch-making first movement.​
Or from George Bernard Shaw's radio broadcast essay for his centenary in 1927:

A hundred years ago a crusty old bachelor of fifty-seven, so deaf that he could not hear his own music played by a full orchestra, yet still able to hear thunder, shook his fist at the roaring heavens for the last time, and died as he had lived, challenging God and defying the universe. ... Nobody but Beethoven could govern Beethoven; and when, as happened when the fit ws on him, he deliberately refused to govern himself, he was ungovernable.

It was this turbulence, this deliberate disorder, this mockery, this reckless and triumphant disregard of conventional manners, that set Beethoven apart from the musical geniuses of the ceremonious seventeenth and eighteenth centuries. He was a giant wave in that storm of the human spirit which produced the French Revolution. ... The Eroica Symphony begins by a pattern (borrowed from an overture which Mozart wrote when he was a boy), followed by a couple more very pretty patterns; but they are tremendously energized, and in the middle of the movement the patterns are torn up savagely; and Beethoven, from the point of view of the mere pattern musician, goes raving mad, hurling out terrible chords in which all the notes of the scale are sounded simultaneously, just because he feels like that, and wants you to feel like it.

And there you have the whole secret of Beethoven. He could design patterns with the best of them; he could write music whose beauty will last you all your life; he could take the driest sticks of themes and work them up so interestingly that you find something new in them at the hundredth hearing: in short, you can say of him all that you can say of the greatest pattern composers; but his diagnostic, the thing that marks him out from all the others, is his disturbing quality, his power of unsettling us and imposing his giant moods on us.​
He was indeed "a giant wave in that storm of the human spirit which produced the French Revolution," and that's how I've always listened to the Eroica too. I once forgot all about its merits too, but reading Mencken's essay revived an interest; and while listening again, I was blown away as I rarely am by music. A magnificent symphony!


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

J. Haydn Mass in E flat: 



Beethoven Op.55/ii: 




J. Haydn Op.20/5/iv: 



Beethoven Op.55/iv:


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## Axter (Jan 15, 2020)

I said it before here and its my belief since a long time, “whoever listens and truly loves Eroica from his heart, goes to heaven”.

I truly believe that.


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## Wilhelm Theophilus (Aug 8, 2020)

Axter said:


> I said it before here and its my belief since a long time, "whoever listens and truly loves Eroica from his heart, goes to heaven".
> 
> I truly believe that.


:lol::lol::lol:

good one!


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## Haydn70 (Jan 8, 2017)

Axter said:


> I said it before here and its my belief since a long time, "whoever listens and truly loves Eroica from his heart, goes to heaven".
> 
> I truly believe that.


If that is the case, I am in! It is a glorious work!


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## MarkW (Feb 16, 2015)

Axter said:


> I said it before here and its my belief since a long time, "whoever listens and truly loves Eroica from his heart, goes to heaven".
> 
> I truly believe that.


I do, and wish it were true, but in most other things, I am not heaven material.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

MarkW said:


> I do, and wish it were true, but in most other things, *I am not heaven material*.


None of us are heaven material in in and/or of ourselves.


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

It is. Compare it to symphonies before it, not after it.


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## ArtMusic (Jan 5, 2013)

Axter said:


> I said it before here and its my belief since a long time, "whoever listens and truly loves Eroica from his heart, goes to heaven".
> 
> I truly believe that.


You bet! And best of all, you get to meet Beethoven there!


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## Axter (Jan 15, 2020)

MarkW said:


> I do, and wish it were true, but in most other things, I am not heaven material.





SixFootScowl said:


> None of us are heaven material in in and/or of ourselves.


Yet a piece like Eroica can make us think and change inside, and hopefully become better humans. Thats the power of this symphony and good music in general.


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## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

Generally not a fan of the Eroica symphony. Too long for me, and don't really find it that interesting for all its obvious passion.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Phil loves classical said:


> Generally not a fan of the Eroica symphony. Too long for me,


You don't lose much by leaving out the last movement. Fancy ending it with a bloody ballet!


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

Mandryka said:


> *You don't lose much by leaving out the last movement.* Fancy ending it with a bloody ballet!


The same way people who can't read don't miss books.


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## FastkeinBrahms (Jan 9, 2021)

Mandryka said:


> You don't lose much by leaving out the last movement. Fancy ending it with a bloody ballet!


Barenboim: "Der letzte Satz ist ein Witz ", (The last movement is a joke). It is up to everyone to interpret that as a commendation or the opposite. However, one of his symphonies I do not get tired of.


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## consuono (Mar 27, 2020)

> Beethovens eroica is one of the greatest works of Classical music


Yes, it is. So long, Haydn and Mozart.


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## Axter (Jan 15, 2020)

FastkeinBrahms said:


> Barenboim: "Der letzte Satz ist ein Witz ", (The last movement is a joke).


This expression in German does not mean the same as in English. He did not say it in a negative way, rather it would translate into "the last movement is funny"

Talking of which I was lucky enough to attend an Eroica performance in Vienna with Barenboim and VPO, I think it was in 2005 or 2006. Great performance.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

Axter said:


> This expression in German does not mean the same as in English. He did not say it in a negative way, rather it would translate into "the last movement is funny"


The term "joke" said in that context doesn't mean anything negative.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Axter said:


> This expression in German does not mean the same as in English. He did not say it in a negative way, rather it would translate into "the last movement is funny"
> 
> .


Funny haha or funny peculiar?

c19 music is so weird, and this symphony is a paradigm of that weirdness. This last movement has zilch to do with the other three, if the music unified, its unity isn't audible to me. It's just a random sequence of four pieces.


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## Xisten267 (Sep 2, 2018)

I agree with the OP that the Eroica is one the greatest works of the Classical era, and it's last movement is my favorite: it showcases a dreamer, humanist side of Beethoven, who used an _englische_ in it due to it's symbolic connotations associated with illuminist values.

"The _englische_ contradance had unique progressist implications. The constant change of partners (...) produced a literal blend of classes; a noble could end hand in hand with the daughter of a merchant. This wasn't insignificant. It was something new in public social life - even radically new. In the _englische_, each participant was, at least while the music was played, an equal _citoyen_ of dance and, due to this, the _englische_ received a frisson of democracy. In turn, to some thinkers, this situation transformed the _englische_ in a symbol of ideal society." - Freely translated from Jan Swafford's biography of Beethoven.

Beethoven was so enthusiasmed with the _englische_ in question that he used it also in the _Eroica_ variations and in his very beautiful ballet _The Creatures of Prometheus_.


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## Aurelian (Sep 9, 2011)

Shifting gears, so to speak...

The tempo marking of the first movement is Allegro con brio. Most recordings generally follow this tempo. However, Klemperer's slower tempo at first did not appeal to me, but when I got used to it, I preferred it. Furtwaengler's tempo was also slower.

What is your preference?


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## Xisten267 (Sep 2, 2018)

Aurelian said:


> What is your preference?


I'm not sure if the question was for me, but if it was, below is my current favorite _Eroica_:






Bernstein with the New York Philharmonic is always a winner for me, at least from what I know of his recordings (even for composers outside of the Romantic tradition; the Bernstein/NYP performances of Haydn and Mozart are excellent in my opinion). I think that his late performances with other orchestras (for example the WPO in the case of the composer of Bonn) doesn't match the vivacity and spontaneity of his early recordings. In the case of Beethoven, I also tend to prefer the faster tempi of his early versions.


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## Axter (Jan 15, 2020)

Mandryka said:


> Funny haha or funny peculiar?
> 
> c19 music is so weird, and this symphony is a paradigm of that weirdness. This last movement has zilch to do with the other three, if the music unified, its unity isn't audible to me. It's just a random sequence of four pieces.


I think funny as in peculiar and haha combined would be the right translation.

Actually I like the 4th mvmt a lot myself.


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## janxharris (May 24, 2010)

Mandryka said:


> Funny haha or funny peculiar?
> 
> c19 music is so weird, and this symphony is a paradigm of that weirdness. This last movement has zilch to do with the other three, if the music unified, its unity isn't audible to me. It's just a random sequence of four pieces.


An issue I have too. The second movement would sit well in his fifth - as in da, da, da, daaaa.

I do like the eroica nevertheless.


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

I like it, and to my taste it was at that time the best symphony ever composed. But there have been hundreds of works composed after it that I prefer (including a handful by Beethoven himself).


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## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

Mandryka said:


> Funny haha or funny peculiar?
> 
> c19 music is so weird, and this symphony is a paradigm of that weirdness. This last movement has zilch to do with the other three, if the music unified, its unity isn't audible to me. It's just a random sequence of four pieces.


Yes, it is humorous - or it should be in the first parts. I heard Neeme Jarvi do it in Detroit and there was just something he did with it, nothing obnoxious or juvenile, but the audience was actually chuckling. It was amazing.

And yes, the last movement does have something to do with the rest of the symphony, in particular the first movement. Just a quick look at the first notes of the theme from the first movement and the theme from the last will reveal the note sequence. Tenuous, sure, and not nearly as interrelated as the 5th would be, but then Beethoven was still experimenting.


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## Amadea (Apr 15, 2021)

I disagree with Eroica being one of the greatest works in classic music. Maybe I'm biased because I've never liked it that much compared to other works. If we stick to Beethoven, he did a lot better in my opinion, the 5th, the 7th, the 9th etc. If we consider other composers as well, I wouldn't put Eroica in the first 10 greatest pieces of classic music. Maybe, I wouldn't even put it in the 10 greatest symphonies. Again, it's only my opinion and also I am no expert. I'm not saying Eroica is bad. I just think there's better. Maybe I'll come back to it one day and think it's the greatest symphony ever. Who knows.


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## pianozach (May 21, 2018)

Allerius said:


> I'm not sure if the question was for me, but if it was, below is my current favorite _Eroica_:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


No surprise here. I'm a big fan of *Bernstein*. When interpreting and conducting it seems he can do no wrong. I'm sure there's a stinker somewhere, but I've yet to hear it.

Legend has it that *Keith Emerson* of Emerson, Lake & Palmer invited Bernstein to listen to Emerson's Piano Concerto No. 1 when asking him to conduct the long form song Pirates.

Bernstein said Emerson's music sounded like Grandma Moses.


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## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

I had to listen to the Emerson piano concerto after that post. Seems like an appropriate comment by Bernstein.


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## FastkeinBrahms (Jan 9, 2021)

Axter said:


> This expression in German does not mean the same as in English. He did not say it in a negative way, rather it would translate into "the last movement is funny"
> 
> Talking of which I was lucky enough to attend an Eroica performance in Vienna with Barenboim and VPO, I think it was in 2005 or 2006. Great performance.


I listened to the interview and interpreted it as being quite ambiguous. His Berlin Staatskappelle recording is very good, too. However, that is not the issue. And my translation is correct, I believe. It can mean the same "as" in English.


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## Axter (Jan 15, 2020)

FastkeinBrahms said:


> I listened to the interview and interpreted it as being quite ambiguous. His Berlin Staatskappelle recording is very good, too. However, that is not the issue. And my translation is correct, I believe. It can mean the same "as" in English.


Lets agree on the first sentence of yours, "quite ambiguous" .


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## progmatist (Apr 3, 2021)

The romantic style can be traced back to the Eroica Symphony is its catalyst.


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

To answer the OP I feel that first we have to define ‘greatness’. Is it objective greatness or subjective greatness? 

This must be thrashed out for at least 100 pages then we will be getting somewhere and then, and only then, can we gauge the Eroica’s place in the pantheon of great symphonies.


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## pianozach (May 21, 2018)

I daresay that there's not a single credible Greatest Symphonies list that DOESN'T have Beethoven's Symphony No. 3 in it's Top Ten, probably in its Top 3.

Except for that weird list that only allows one Symphony per composer.


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## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

progmatist said:


> The romantic style can be traced back to the Eroica Symphony is its catalyst.


I am not so sure. I believe that the 5th, 6th and 9th were all more directly/obviously influential than the Eroica (even if the Eroica is more complex and daring than 5 or 6 and also earlier). The 5th has the unpredecented musical and poetic unity including a kind of "leitmotiv" or idée fixe together with the vague poetic (per aspera ad astra, fate, revolutionary fervor etc.) associations. The 6th is closer to the romantics in its lyrical breadth than most other Beethoven and is a paradigm of a programmatic symphony (while keeping a high level of "purely" musical evolution) and the 9th to some extent fuses all what's revolutionary about 3,5 and 6 and adds the chorus.


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## Petwhac (Jun 9, 2010)

In general, repeating the exposition is necessary for the overall architectural balance of a movement.


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## haziz (Sep 15, 2017)

Yes ................................, next.


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## Agamenon (Apr 22, 2019)

More tan 150 living conductors voted Eroica as.....

https://www.theguardian.com/music/2...oica-greatest-symphony-vote-bbc-mozart-mahler


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## progmatist (Apr 3, 2021)

Kreisler jr said:


> I am not so sure. I believe that the 5th, 6th and 9th were all more directly/obviously influential than the Eroica (even if the Eroica is more complex and daring than 5 or 6 and also earlier). The 5th has the unpredecented musical and poetic unity including a kind of "leitmotiv" or idée fixe together with the vague poetic (per aspera ad astra, fate, revolutionary fervor etc.) associations. The 6th is closer to the romantics in its lyrical breadth than most other Beethoven and is a paradigm of a programmatic symphony (while keeping a high level of "purely" musical evolution) and the 9th to some extent fuses all what's revolutionary about 3,5 and 6 and adds the chorus.


There was definitely a transition period. After the Eroica Symphony, Beethoven reverted to classicism in Symphony No. 4 and the Violin Concerto. By the 5th, the classicism was all but abandoned.


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## Amadea (Apr 15, 2021)

Agamenon said:


> More tan 150 living conductors voted Eroica as.....
> 
> https://www.theguardian.com/music/2...oica-greatest-symphony-vote-bbc-mozart-mahler


No offense, I think these articles do not mean much. Tomorrow they'll say it's the 5th. People change their minds constantly, expecially experts. Just google "greatest composer", you'll see experts now say Bach. A few years ago they said Beethoven. Next year who knows, they'll say Handel or Mozart. They always change and there is not really a correct answer in my opinion.


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## pianozach (May 21, 2018)

Agamenon said:


> More tan 150 living conductors voted Eroica as.....
> 
> https://www.theguardian.com/music/2...oica-greatest-symphony-vote-bbc-mozart-mahler


Yep. *Beethoven* gets three spots in the Top Eleven (3rd, 9th, and 5th Symphonies).

But yeah, *3rd* gets #1.


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