# Reason, Love & Music



## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

Is the music we connect with *ALWAYS* matched with deep reasons for loving it? Put differently, even if we say we like it b/c we just like it, are there _*ALWAYS*_ deeper reasons that we aren't always aware of?

I think the answer is yes. I love helping figuring out why they enjoy or dislike a particular work across any art form, it's the therapist in me coming alive.

The first step in art appreciation is falling in love with a work, then you try to uncover the reasons. You don't look for reasons to love something first, that's my theory.


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## Strange Magic (Sep 14, 2015)

Captainnumber36 said:


> The first step in art appreciation is falling in love with a work, then you try to uncover the reasons. You don't look for reasons to love something first, that's my theory.


This is at the heart of the well-known _ex post facto_ school of aesthetic criticism. Step One: Find it, love it. Step Two: then figure out, since you love it, why it must be "good", "great", "the best", and then Step Three: why the other person's stuff that they like but you don't, is unworthy of anyone's attention. Works every time. This is why I prefer _de gustibus non disputandum est_. But I do enjoy Steps One and Two if I stop at why *I* love it, and don't attempt to universalize my reaction to include the rest of the world. For instance, I know pretty well what rings my bell in all sorts of examples--the easiest to verbalize are probably my favorite rock songs, but that is for another forum and time....


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

Strange Magic said:


> This is at the heart of the well-known _ex post facto_ school of aesthetic criticism. Step One: Find it, love it. Step Two: then figure out, since you love it, why it must be "good", "great", "the best", and then Step Three: why the other person's stuff that they like but you don't, is unworthy of anyone's attention. Works every time. This is why I prefer _de gustibus non disputandum est_. But I do enjoy Steps One and Two if I stop at why *I* love it, and don't attempt to universalize my reaction to include the rest of the world. For instance, I know pretty well what rings my bell in all sorts of examples--the easiest to verbalize are probably my favorite rock songs, but that is for another forum and time....


I'll have to read up on those, thanks for sharing!


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## SONNET CLV (May 31, 2014)

Isn't that an old Frank Sinatra song (by Cahn and Van Heusen)?

Love and Music
Love and Music
They go together like an
Elevator and Muzak

Of course, I could be wrong. (Had Sammy Cahn and Jimmy Van Heusen been less New York and more Brit, they could have substituted "Lift" for "Elevator" and gotten a better rhythmic pulse. Oh well ...)


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## Bruce (Jan 2, 2013)

Strange Magic said:


> This is at the heart of the well-known _ex post facto_ school of aesthetic criticism. Step One: Find it, love it. Step Two: then figure out, since you love it, why it must be "good", "great", "the best", and then Step Three: why the other person's stuff that they like but you don't, is unworthy of anyone's attention. Works every time. This is why I prefer _de gustibus non disputandum est_. But I do enjoy Steps One and Two if I stop at why *I* love it, and don't attempt to universalize my reaction to include the rest of the world. For instance, I know pretty well what rings my bell in all sorts of examples--the easiest to verbalize are probably my favorite rock songs, but that is for another forum and time....


Nice thoughts. I fear I've too long taken those same three steps, but I hope I've forever left Step 3 behind. Actually, I've learned that if someone else loves a particular piece, there must be something I've missed, and this encourages me to give it more attention. The problem becomes more one of versions, where someone loves a particular recording of a piece, which I find uninteresting. It's harder to come to terms with different interpretations than it is to come to terms with a brand new work.


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## Strange Magic (Sep 14, 2015)

Bruce said:


> Nice thoughts. I fear I've too long taken those same three steps, but I hope I've forever left Step 3 behind. Actually, I've learned that if someone else loves a particular piece, there must be something I've missed, and this encourages me to give it more attention. The problem becomes more one of versions, where someone loves a particular recording of a piece, which I find uninteresting. It's harder to come to terms with different interpretations than it is to come to terms with a brand new work.


My public responses to works that do not please me and/or that I do not understand (after legitimately trying) are A) silence, or B) an honestly-held and perfectly viable explanation that I am not the audience for whom the work was intended; nothing intrinsically "wrong" with the music--I'm just not the proper person to fully appreciate its qualities. Nobody's feathers are ruffled; everyone walks away content .

P.S.: The silence may also mean that I've never heard the piece in question .


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

Strange Magic said:


> My public responses to works that do not please me and/or that I do not understand (after legitimately trying) are A) silence, or B) an honestly-held and perfectly viable explanation that I am not the audience for whom the work was intended; nothing intrinsically "wrong" with the music--I'm just not the proper person to fully appreciate its qualities. Nobody's feathers are ruffled; everyone walks away content .
> 
> P.S.: The silence may also mean that I've never heard the piece in question .


Yep, I agree 100%. No need to force anything!


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Strange Magic said:


> My public responses to works that do not please me and/or that I do not understand (after legitimately trying) are A) silence, or B) an honestly-held and perfectly viable explanation that I am not the audience for whom the work was intended; nothing intrinsically "wrong" with the music--I'm just not the proper person to fully appreciate its qualities. Nobody's feathers are ruffled; everyone walks away content .


Such preternatural tact! When I've had enough of what they force upon me while I'm shopping, I may say to the person beside me, "Why do they think we want to listen to this ****? Whatever happened to melody? Are all pop singers 13 years old? Is staying home now the only way to have peace and quiet? I'm out of here!"

As for reasons, I assume that if anyone needs them, my white whiskers will be a sufficient explanation.


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## SONNET CLV (May 31, 2014)

Woodduck said:


> Such preternatural tact! When I've had enough of what they force upon me while I'm shopping, I may say to the person beside me, "Why do they think we want to listen to this ****? *Whatever happened to melody?* Are all pop singers 13 years old? Is staying home now the only way to have peace and quiet? I'm out of here!"[/QUOTE
> 
> I suspect that means you wouldn't shop at establishments that play music such as, say, Xenakis, Stockhausen, Boulez, Cage or Earle Brown? What a shame. I would relish such an experience.


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## les24preludes (May 1, 2018)

If you look at all the research on happiness you find it's usually divided into the "meaningful" where something is achieved and there is a sense of fulfilment, and the "pleasurable" which is simply about feeling good. We appear to have different circuits in our brains which interact. Part of what we regularly do is the search for meaning - trying to make sense of ourselves and the world by building up opinions, theories, generalisations, road maps. And part of what we do is purely hedonistic, what Freud called the Pleasure Principle. 

I think the above applies to music in the same way it applies to a lot of other things in life. But these circuits interact on a constant basis, and I see no currency in trying to decide which "comes first". Take Baroque music as an example - your search for meaning may lead you to the generalisation that Baroque music is much less interesting than romantic or modern music and so not worth paying attention to. This may be derived from listening to a lot of "boring" Baroque music which you didn't like much. But this is then contradicted by the fact that you "like" bits of Vivaldi and Handel and a lot of Bach. So this gives you a feedback loop which generates a new generalisation e.g. "I find most Baroque music uninteresting with the exception of xxxxx". The same would apply to contemporary music, or 12 tone music etc. 

We need road maps in our lives to give structure to what we do, but the road maps are always in a feedback loop with the events and places we like. Sometimes literally - we may drive to a wanted destination but go out of our way to eat at a favourite restaurant during the journey. That may then change the route we take for future journeys.


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## Thomyum2 (Apr 18, 2018)

les24preludes said:


> If you look at all the research on happiness you find it's usually divided into the "meaningful" where something is achieved and there is a sense of fulfilment, and the "pleasurable" which is simply about feeling good. We appear to have different circuits in our brains which interact. Part of what we regularly do is the search for meaning - trying to make sense of ourselves and the world by building up opinions, theories, generalisations, road maps. And part of what we do is purely hedonistic, what Freud called the Pleasure Principle.
> 
> I think the above applies to music in the same way it applies to a lot of other things in life. But these circuits interact on a constant basis, and I see no currency in trying to decide which "comes first". Take Baroque music as an example - your search for meaning may lead you to the generalisation that Baroque music is much less interesting than romantic or modern music and so not worth paying attention to. This may be derived from listening to a lot of "boring" Baroque music which you didn't like much. But this is then contradicted by the fact that you "like" bits of Vivaldi and Handel and a lot of Bach. So this gives you a feedback loop which generates a new generalisation e.g. "I find most Baroque music uninteresting with the exception of xxxxx". The same would apply to contemporary music, or 12 tone music etc.
> 
> We need road maps in our lives to give structure to what we do, but the road maps are always in a feedback loop with the events and places we like. Sometimes literally - we may drive to a wanted destination but go out of our way to eat at a favourite restaurant during the journey. That may then change the route we take for future journeys.


I think this is very insightful, and seems corresponds very much to my own experience. So while I do certainly encounter music that is like a 'love at first sight' experience as described in the OP, I also try to tackle music that doesn't necessarily make the best first impression on me. If I hear a piece programmed on a concert or recommended by people who's opinions about music I respect, and I don't like it right away, I kind of think of it as a challenge or a puzzle - a problem to be solved. I ask myself what am I missing, what are others hearing that I am not and explore music from that angle. Now sometimes it works, and sometimes not, but ever since childhood, I've always enjoyed solving puzzles of any kind, and so when I can take this approach and end up enjoying something that I initially didn't, not only does it bring new kinds of music into my life, but it also gives me a great sense of satisfaction in sort of that sense of finding 'meaning' that you've described.

It's so interesting to hear in these forum discussions how different people approach music in different ways, and always reminds me how lucky we are to have such a vast reservoir of great music available to us that no matter what approach we take, or whatever segment of music we choose to hone in on, there is a lifetime of good listening out there for all of us.


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## Merl (Jul 28, 2016)

I don't really look for reasons WHY I love a particular piece of music. There's just a feeling I get from it. It usually evokes an emotional response, whether that's sadness, joy, whatever! It's always changing too. Songs and pieces I used to adore are now just merely enjoyable and new music comes in and I forget about older stuff. I try not to analyse what I respond to. I just know I like it.


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## larold (Jul 20, 2017)

I'm not sure I can agree with love and reason. Do you have children? Did you love them the day they were born? I once heard a woman say to a newborn, "How can I love you so much? You were just born."

I think perhaps the old expression you don't find love it finds you is more the issue here. I say that because I don't think people love music the way they love people. Love for a friend, spouse, child or even a pet is often founded in feelings but it becomes deeper and more profound as time goes on -- any amount of time. 

Love for art may start out with feelings but those feelings fade with exposure. One you've heard Eroica 300 times I doubt you'll love it like you did the first 5 times you heard it.

I know I still love my wife 35 years later even though she does all manner of things that bother me. I don't have the same love for any classical music 35 years later. There is some I still like to hear but love … ? I don't think so.


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## Strange Magic (Sep 14, 2015)

^^^^I won't bore everyone with a list (or lists); suffice it to say that there are pieces of music, paintings, poems and stories, that I enjoy today with the same or sometimes an even richer appreciation than I had when I first experienced them and began to love them.


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