# The Best Classical Era Obscurities: Focusing on Pieces over Composers



## clavichorder (May 2, 2011)

It's been a while since a thread like this has been attempted, I think. It's always good to renew this conversation. I am going to introduce one piece per post and describe what is interesting and stand out to me about it, and I encourage you to do the same. Some obscure composers of the 18th century enjoy heightened recognition on talkclassical and among connoisseurs; Joseph Martin Kraus for example. But not everyone is up on these things, so I encourage specific pieces from even the likes of CPE Bach or Clementi. 

Sometimes there aren't youtube videos of these works we admire. Link a CD if you can't find a video.


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## clavichorder (May 2, 2011)

Here is one to start with: the no. 4 son(in fame not age) of Johann Sebastian, Johann Christoph Friedrich Bach, wrote some very nice symphonies.






This one is in C major. Particularly listen to the finale(mvt 3) which is a minuet with not only a very nice theme, but something incredibly toward the end of its c major section, and with a beautiful contrasting part in C minor.


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## clavichorder (May 2, 2011)

Disappointing but not surprising that this thread hasn't picked up. Not sure if it's the topic or my presentation. Even reading my initial post makes me think people might find this like a chore. Why can't it be interesting to people here to discuss in depth the music of this era? It certainly has interest Inherent to it.


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## tdc (Jan 17, 2011)

clavichorder said:


> Disappointing but not surprising that this thread hasn't picked up. Not sure if it's the topic or my presentation. Even reading my initial post makes me think people might find this like a chore. Why can't it be interesting to people here to discuss in depth the music of this era? It certainly has interest Inherent to it.


I don't think its your presentation, it was an era of music that didn't last very long and I'm not fully convinced there really is a wealth of obscure gems there. Outside of Mozart I don't take interest in much of it. Haydn, Hummel and Boccherini had some very listenable music - but does it have much depth? Or is it just pleasant to listen to?

At any rate I do enjoy hearing about your suggestions, as you surely know more than most on the forum in this area.

Using classical ideas for newer music often provides some good results like Prokofiev's 1st symphony and those small piano pieces you've composed.


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## chesapeake bay (Aug 3, 2015)

Indeed this is a fascinating topic and I know I've ran across a few gems but I tend not to remember how to find them again, lol. But I'll at least give it a try. here's a clip from Michael Haydn's Missa 'Pro Defuncto Archiepiscopo Sigismundo' the intro and Kyrie






I Think this has as good an effect as Mozarts Reqium or C minor Mass


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## Weston (Jul 11, 2008)

clavichorder said:


> Disappointing but not surprising that this thread hasn't picked up.


I for one was at work or in transit since this thread started until now. You have to give it a little time.

I like the J.C.F Bach work. Much better than Johann Christian to my ears. That third movement is rhythmically odd / complex for a minuet. The accents are strange in places. What are the bizarre chorused or detuned string-like sounds around the 13:50 mark? That's very different. (I left a question on the video itself too.)


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## Weston (Jul 11, 2008)

Here's a sinfonia by *Jiří Antonín Benda*.

I think the trills and forceful voice leading sound a lot like C.P.E. Bach, minus a prominent harpsichord (though there is a subtle harpsichord continuo in this performance). We open with a Mannheim rocket-like effect, but altered a little in that it doesn't seem to my ears to follow the usual triad. [Edit: What's cool I notice on second listen is that opening "Mannheim rocket" is actually also the ending of a phrase, which we discover when we reach the end of the first phrase or theme or whatever, at about 0:48.]

The slow movement is almost a weary march, and we close with another lovely minuet type of movement. While not quite in the same league as Kraus, I find this Benda (there were several, an entire family I believe) to be satisfying overall. He wrote many similar sinfonias. This is a typical example.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

If we're talking about the entire classical era, I find many of Hummel's works well above the level of his (and Beethoven's) contemporaries. I listen to all of his seven piano trios and his concertos. One of his best piano concertos is the A-minor Op. 85.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mSYS2YzpNR4


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## Dirge (Apr 10, 2012)

Speaking of C.P.E. Bach ...

His 18(?) keyboard fantasias are quite moody and varied, with the final one, Freye Fantasie in F-sharp minor, Wq. 67 (1787), being a particular favorite of mine. Bach dubbed this final fantasia "C. P. E. Bachs Empfindungen" ("C. P. E. Bach's Innermost Feelings") in it's arrangement for keyboard with violin accompaniment, and he directs that it be played "very mournfully and dead slow." The fantasias are, for the most part, more introspective and expressionist than any of the sonatas I've heard, and many, particularly the F-sharp minor, sound distinctly ahead of their time.

Alexei Lubimov's highly personal one-off recording of the F-sharp minor Fantasia on a modern piano (from his ECM album _Der Bote_) is my favorite recording of the work:






The fantasia isn't very obscure-indeed, it's quite well known among fanciers of little-known music-but it's the best submission that I could come up with off the top of my head.


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## clavichorder (May 2, 2011)

tdc said:


> I don't think its your presentation, it was an era of music that didn't last very long and I'm not fully convinced there really is a wealth of obscure gems there. Outside of Mozart I don't take interest in much of it. Haydn, Hummel and Boccherini had some very listenable music - but does it have much depth? Or is it just pleasant to listen to?
> 
> At any rate I do enjoy hearing about your suggestions, as you surely know more than most on the forum in this area.
> 
> Using classical ideas for newer music often provides some good results like Prokofiev's 1st symphony and those small piano pieces you've composed.


We are dealing with a humbler set of musical tools. With all due respect to you and your broad experience as a listener, It means that you have to listen more carefully to differentiate and take interests in the different voices of the time, do more research. Do not be deceived into thinking that your viewpoint is much more than a mentality of expectations created by the romantic era, which is irrelevant and not helpful to knowing well even the best music of this time. You will respect Mozart and Haydn so much more if you learn to feel satisfied and even interested in some of "the chaff". But many people whose taste I generally respect don't seem to be interested in adopting this mentality.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

CPE Bach's work is, in many cases, excellent. Although I consider him pre-classical! Anyway, I particularly enjoy his transverse flute concertos. Kossenko has two sterling albums of these.

Otherwise, Chandos issued a huge collection of CDs with the title "Contemporaries of Mozart," Matthias Bamert conducting the London Mozart Players. This has mostly symphonies from Baguer to Wranitzky. Few seem of interest (to me) or at all memorable. My impression is that in the Haydn/Mozart era (say, 1765-1800) few other composers even distantly approached their genius. There may be exceptions!


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Oh, another guy, the Frenchman Mehul, is absolutely worth hearing., His overture _Young Henry's Hunt _is well known and occasionally heard on the radio. But he also wrote four symphonies, the last two of which were only recently discovered. Here's Symphony No. 1, ca. 1805-1808.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mQMHdbaaZYE


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## Johnhanks (Feb 21, 2016)

Vorisek's Symphony in D should be far better known than it is.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Johnhanks said:


> Vorisek's Symphony in D should be far better known than it is.


Which brings to mind Arriaga's three fine string quartets, written shortly before his demise at 19 years of age.


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## clavichorder (May 2, 2011)

@Weston: the Benda sinfonia is very nice, like a CPE sinfonia softened by Mannheim ideas. Where you might expect a more Stamitz gesture, we have a phrase terminating in a way like CPE might with naked dominant chord. Stamitz is often nice, very graceful phrasing, but this is more unpredictable harmonically I enjoy the pizzicato in the middle movement. Benda seems to have been a well rounded instrumental composer, as I have found his Sonatas to be among the better alternatives to CPE Sonatas as well.


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## clavichorder (May 2, 2011)

For those of you who have not seen my ravings and links before about the Sonatas of Ernst Wilhelm Wolf, check out the recording by Paul Simmonds. These Sonatas are concise but sometimes of a musical quality to rival the best of CPE Bach, Wf Bach, and taking into account stylistic differences, stand up to the work of Haydn and Mozart in my opinion. Very high praise, yes, but these are truly gems and so under recorded. Fortunately Paul Simmonds does an incredible job.


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## clavichorder (May 2, 2011)

Perhaps the closest thing to a 'normal' Symphony Wf Bach wrote:


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## clavichorder (May 2, 2011)

Two cheers to that most lazy and brilliant Bach. There is a reason I have the portrait of someone that has been mistaken for Wf as my avatar. Here is another barely passable early Symphony. This one is a bit stranger but very interesting:


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## clavichorder (May 2, 2011)

Another fantastically witty and lazy classical Era composer that you might not know at all, Henri Joseph Rigel, who was about as French as Offenbach. A very quirky set of symphonies is recorded, and here is an example: 



He always manages to be unpredictable and curiously graceful in his roughness.


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## Clairvoyance Enough (Jul 25, 2014)

I think I've whistled this symphony's first movement more times this year than anything by Haydn or Mozart. I love Haydn, but sometimes the phrases in his expositions just don't seem to flow into each other - I'll be into it one second and then something repeats one too many times or there's an awkward pause that just kills it for me, but Kozeluch achieves that perfect combination of high energy and fluidity here.


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## clavichorder (May 2, 2011)

That is one of the most substantial Kozeluch symphonies I have yet heard! I agree that he has a certain galloping angulation to his music that can be found in Mozart or Johann Christian(a more gallant incarnation), it sounds less rough and chunky than some Haydn or Kraus can(these have their other merits). 

I read an entry in an old music book on the classical Era, that only mentioned Kozeluch offenhandedly as catering to the superficial tastes of the Era, in comparison with Dittersdorf who actually had "inventiveness". I agree that Dittersdorf despite his limitations was inventive, but that slight to Kozeluch is so wrong and seems rooted in his rivalry with Mozart rather than direct appraisal of his music. I would say Kozeluch is easily the craftier and cleverer composer than Dittersdorf.


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## Cosmos (Jun 28, 2013)

Late classical, but I've fell in love with this Clementi sonata years ago,


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## Weston (Jul 11, 2008)

clavichorder said:


> Another fantastically witty and lazy classical Era composer that you might not know at all, Henri Joseph Rigel, who was about as French as Offenbach. A very quirky set of symphonies is recorded, and here is an example:
> 
> 
> 
> He always manages to be unpredictable and curiously graceful in his roughness.


Why does this remind me somewhat of Mendelssohn's string symphonies? I suppose the string symphonies were quite retro. I even used to classify them as baroque in my catalog of works.


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## DaveM (Jun 29, 2015)

These are 2 impressive works from Joseph Wolfl (1773-1812) that I posted in a previous thread:

Piano Sonata op25 Adagio





Piano Concerto #4 (The Calm) Andante


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## clavichorder (May 2, 2011)

Johann Stamitz: people are sometimes inclined to cite him as some simplistic predecessor to Haydn, buy his music is quite sleek, with asymmetrical phrasing. Petite and perfect symphonies like this one:


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