# Did pop music make us musically dumb and mediocre?



## C95 (Feb 6, 2017)

I grew up listening to pop music and I got into classical music 4 years ago. For me, it was hard to get into orchestral music and stuff like that because I was just used to listening to pop music; We could say I was in my "Comfort Zone"

I don't want to sound like a musical snob but now, I see all pop musicians/composers like amateurish, not serious composers. I see this huge concerts of bands playing with tons of lights, lasers and effects and I get that feeling that says: yeah, cool, but...where is music? Music has lost its seriousness, its value. I see most of pop music as a joke. David Bowie died last year and people were saying things like: "one of the best artist from this century has passed away." and I was like: Well, he had good songs but don't exaggerate. Most of pop artist are popular for their looks, not for their musicality. I hear rap, rock and stuff like that everywhere and these pop artist are considered geniuses, masters of music, isn't that mediocre? Are we musically dumber? At the end, I think there is a difference between pop and serious music: attention. Most of pop music is like Mcdonald's food. It's effect it's simple and quicker and it doesn't require too much attention. There is a difference between hearing and listening in this context.


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## PresenTense (May 7, 2016)

I HATE Classic FM, but this is funny :lol::lol:


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## ZJovicic (Feb 26, 2017)

In my opinion it depends on the type of popular music that you listen to. It's not all the same. It's not all Justin Bieber. I love classical music, but I am against strict value-based categorizations of music. Or maybe there can be only one such categorization: good music and bad music. You can find stuff that fills these categories both among popular music and classical as well.
However I do agree that popular music, on average, is getting worse and worse. Today, the songs that can be compared to some 1960s - 1980s stuff are very rare.


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## Strange Magic (Sep 14, 2015)

The answer to your question is No. People either like classical or they don't. Whether they like pop or anything else has nothing to do with it. It's really a matter of early exposure, in most cases, but pitting different musics against one another in a "what's good/what's bad" comparison doesn't really get us anywhere. I like what I like; you like what you like, so let's find out what interests we share and groove on that.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

> Did pop music make us musically dumb and mediocre?


As long as you do not make yourself mediocre, who cares what you like, just enjoy it.


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## janxharris (May 24, 2010)

C95 said:


> I grew up listening to pop music and I got into classical music 4 years ago. For me, it was hard to get into orchestral music and stuff like that because I was just used to listening to pop music; We could say I was in my "Comfort Zone"
> 
> I don't want to sound like a musical snob but now, I see all pop musicians/composers like amateurish, not serious composers. I see this huge concerts of bands playing with tons of lights, lasers and effects and I get that feeling that says: yeah, cool, but...where is music? Music has lost its seriousness, its value. I see most of pop music as a joke. David Bowie died last year and people were saying things like: "one of the best artist from this century has passed away." and I was like: Well, he had good songs but don't exaggerate. Most of pop artist are popular for their looks, not for their musicality. I hear rap, rock and stuff like that everywhere and these pop artist are considered geniuses, masters of music, isn't that mediocre? Are we musically dumber? At the end, I think there is a difference between pop and serious music: attention. Most of pop music is like Mcdonald's food. It's effect it's simple and quicker and it doesn't require too much attention. There is a difference between hearing and listening in this context.


Not if you consider Radiohead, Kate Bush, Rush, Pink Floyd, Mike Oldfield, Jeff Buckley and the pre-pop Genesis. Have you heard this:






?


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## SiegendesLicht (Mar 4, 2012)

C95 said:


> Most of pop music is like Mcdonald's food. It's effect it's simple and quicker and it doesn't require too much attention. There is a difference between hearing and listening in this context.


That is a very nice metaphor.

Also, I have been wondering: just why does almost all popular music have to include a very prominent, intrusive drum beat? Surely the musical rhythm can be expressed by other instruments.


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## BabyGiraffe (Feb 24, 2017)

SiegendesLicht said:


> That is a very nice metaphor.
> 
> Also, I have been wondering: just why does almost all popular music have to include a very prominent, intrusive drum beat? Surely the musical rhythm can be expressed by other instruments.


Rhythm is the most important element of music. Drums are perfect for playing rhythms.
The question is: why the rhythm was neglected for centuries by the western composers...


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## Sloe (May 9, 2014)

BabyGiraffe said:


> Rhythm is the most important element of music. Drums are perfect for playing rhythms.
> The question is: why the rhythm was neglected for centuries by the western composers...


Maybe because most of the time music sounds better when they don't have drums going on all the time.


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## Clairvoyance Enough (Jul 25, 2014)

Sloe said:


> Maybe because most of the time music sounds better when they don't have drums going on all the time.


When the beat is creative I think consistent drums lend the music a weight and bounce that I sometimes miss in CM.

Newcomers to CM are often advised to have patience and absorb the musical language of the genre before they recoil with generalizations. I feel like the same thing is happening in reverse here. Drum beats, even repetitive ones, have been a beloved and fundamental aspect of music for a loooong time. Saying music usually sounds better without them is like saying "opera singing sounds weird" or "classical music has no beat." I feel like those statements are just too broad to really mean anything...


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## Sloe (May 9, 2014)

Clairvoyance Enough said:


> Saying music usually sounds better without them is like saying "opera singing sounds weird" or "classical music has no beat." I feel like those statements are just too broad to really mean anything...


There is a difference between usually and always. 
Having to hear drum beats during the whole song are most times just annoying.


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

> Did pop music make us musically dumb and mediocre?


No. Next question please.


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## BabyGiraffe (Feb 24, 2017)

Sloe said:


> There is a difference between usually and always.
> Having to hear drum beats during the whole song are most times just annoying.


It's rare to hear non-stop drumming even in dance music where you can find often contrasting sections without any drums.


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## Clairvoyance Enough (Jul 25, 2014)

To the OP:

I feel like you're trying to characterize pop music as the continuation of a tradition it was never part of in the first place. The twentieth century classical masters didn't pass the baton to the pop artists of today - serious composers of classical music gathered their influences and are still writing serious classical music. 

The bands you're criticizing would belong more to the timeline of folk music, wouldn't they? If you don't go into rock and rap expecting 10 minute long thematic developments and other things entirely removed from their intent, you might appreciate them more. I don't think the masses went from headbanging to op. 131 to preferring 3-4 minute songs with comparatively easy melodies and rhythms; I think they've always preferred that, but I'm less than a novice of music history.


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## Sloe (May 9, 2014)

BabyGiraffe said:


> It's rare to hear non-stop drumming even in dance music where you can find often contrasting sections without any drums.


It did not take long time to find this Diamonds with Rihanna.
The drums start 50 seconds in the song and never ends.
Justin Bieber - Company.
Not drums but some sort of smattering going on through the whole song.
Katy Perry - Part Of Me
Fine when you are doing something else but when I listen to the music more carefully it feels like little nails hitting my ears.
If they have to use percussions I prefer them to be softer and slower.


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## Granate (Jun 25, 2016)

1. Ok that you may compare two intrinsecally different genres as "pop" (what kind of pop?) and "classical" (generally or what kind of classical?), but I find this discussion better in the Non-Classical music section.

2. I was and I am a keen electronic, tribal, dance, pop listener. But there are not only sardines or hake out in the ocean. There is also salmon, squids, cod, needlefish. The contemporary ocean cannot be dismissed as dull because we see the same popular fish.
There has always been popular music in any place of the Earth in any era. Since the wake of the mass culture society, it has been impossible to ignore it in favour of more artistic pieces of music.

So I answer your question with a rethoric question. At what time was the humanity musically cultured and smart?

There is no answer.

Mic-drop.

Tarararara...
Tarararara...


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

OP: Of course not.

I love pop music hits of the 1950's-1960's; the jazz trumpet of Miles Davis, etc; and this music moves ands delights me as much as classical music does. Listening to it in no way "dumbed me down".

Classical music in no way makes its listeners superior to other humans who don't listen to it.

The superior folks? Those who COMPOSED the classical, pop and jazz music we love!


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## janxharris (May 24, 2010)

Classical music or pop?


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## cimirro (Sep 6, 2016)

Granate said:


> 1. ... but I find this discussion better in the Non-Classical music section.


Exactly what I was thinking. Why is it posted here?


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

Perhaps listening to pop music is like swilling down a lot of beer, whereas listening to classical is like sipping fine wines?


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## Richard8655 (Feb 19, 2016)

Florestan said:


> Perhaps listening to pop music is like swilling down a lot of beer, whereas listening to classical is like sipping fine wines?


Unless it's a good craft beer compared to a jug wine. Then the other way around!


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

Art Rock said:


> No. Next question please.


One dumb question a day is more than enough!


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## StlukesguildOhio (Dec 25, 2006)

I come from a background in the visual arts. During a discussion upon the "art world" some time back, an artist acquaintance of mine pointed out that there is no single, dominant, monolithic "art world"... rather, there are a series of smaller art worlds... each having its own values, standards, and goals... and every one equally capable of producing artists and art of real and lasting merit. This is equally true of music.

What is termed "Classical Music" can't even be simply defined as a single genre or style. It is made up of music composed from the Middle Ages through the present and ranges from Medieval chant, to madrigals, to dance music, to opera, to songs, to the more recent experimental works. When speaking of "classical music" we are speaking of a wealth of styles and composers spanning centuries. IMO it contains the greatest body of music known to me... 

Nevertheless, I still listen to a broad array of other musical styles/traditions: jazz, blues, folk, country & bluegrass, rock, R&B, pop, etc... I find there are artists and musical works in every one of these that are of great merit. There is also a lot of crap... but the same can be said of "classical". There is more than a little "classical" music that is mediocre (at best) pretentious and unlistenable twaddle. 

Seek out that which you find to be the best in every musical genre and style.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

"Music. What better way to teach a child to be human?" - Daniel Barenboim


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## Strange Magic (Sep 14, 2015)

Florestan said:


> Perhaps listening to pop music is like swilling down a lot of beer, whereas listening to classical is like sipping fine wines?


I eschew oenophilia.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

There's always been simple music that doesn't engage much of the brain. That doesn't make it bad. That said, the pop music which occasionally assails my ears nowadays (sometimes it gets through despite my best efforts) sounds pretty pathetic to me, and it shocks me when the stuff wins awards, or when they talk excitedly about it on All Things Considered. I mean, what is that tuneless piece of garbage that just got Adele a Grammy? No wonder she wanted to give her prize to Beyonce. Whatever happened to melody, this old fart wants to know? Have they all been written? Kern, Gershwin, Berlin, Porter, Mercer, Rodgers, Arlen, et al. must be shaking their skulls.


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## Judith (Nov 11, 2015)

Woodduck said:


> There's always been simple music that doesn't engage much of the brain. That doesn't make it bad. That said, the pop music which occasionally assails my ears nowadays (sometimes it gets through despite my best efforts) sounds pretty pathetic to me, and it shocks me when the stuff wins awards, or when they talk excitedly about it on All Things Considered. I mean, what is that tuneless piece of garbage that just got Adele a Grammy? No wonder she wanted to give her prize to Beyonce. Whatever happened to melody, this old fart wants to know? Have they all been written? Kern, Gershwin, Berlin, Porter, Mercer, Rodgers, Arlen, et al. must be shaking their skulls.


I also think Tchaikovsky, Beethoven etc would be turning in their graves if they heard todays pop. (Won't even use the term "music")


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## Strange Magic (Sep 14, 2015)

Judith said:


> I also think Tchaikovsky, Beethoven etc would be turning in their graves if they heard todays pop. (Won't even use the term "music")


I hate using sledgehammers to crack walnuts.


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## TwoFlutesOneTrumpet (Aug 31, 2011)

From my personal experience I have found classical music significantly more rewarding than pop music (and pretty much all non-classical music, although I still enjoy some non-classical music). I have found that it requires a significant musical maturation to appreciate what classical music has to offer (musical themes that are not banal or obvious, development of musical material in a variety of interesting ways, which comprises a huge part of classical music and is virtually absent from pop music) if you're coming as an adult from mostly pop music.

I don't think that pop music makes people musically dumb but I think that it establishes certain habits in them that makes it difficult to appreciate classical music. These habits include instant gratification, inability for long musical attention spans, dependency on words and strong, obvious beats, to name a few. And incidentally, I agree that Bowie was a very mediocre musician but I think he was spoken so highly of because people tend to exaggerate the accomplishments of the recently deceased.


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## Bettina (Sep 29, 2016)

I don't think that pop music makes people dumb and mediocre. In addition to my classical listening, I listened to a lot of pop music in my teenage years, and nowadays I still listen to it sometimes. And I turned out just fine...smart, above average, and quite humble as well!! :lol::lol:


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

Bettina said:


> I don't think that pop music makes people dumb and mediocre. In addition to my classical listening, I listened to a lot of pop music in my teenage years, and nowadays I still listen to it sometimes. And I turned out just fine...smart, above average, *and quite humble as well!*! :lol::lol:


I appreciate when people are humble and will admit it.  So many hide their humbleness as if it were a disease.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Bettina said:


> I don't think that pop music makes people dumb and mediocre. In addition to my classical listening, I listened to a lot of pop music in my teenage years, and nowadays I still listen to it sometimes. And I turned out just fine...smart, above average, and quite humble as well!! :lol::lol:


Yes....very humble...I don't know whether I should bow or cry.


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## TwoFlutesOneTrumpet (Aug 31, 2011)

hpowders said:


> Yes....very humble...I don't know whether I should bow or cry.


Why not do both?


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## Fugue Meister (Jul 5, 2014)

Pop music isn't something that came about recently to rival classical music, it has always existed right along side serious music. There were always singer/song writer types that traveled around trying to make a living just like the Beibster. It's just since the advent of recordings (and particularly the business of pushing popular, generic, easily produced fluff has become such a money maker) any no talented (usually) good-looking person that can sing or play an instrument half way decently is groomed and packaged as some mass appeal pop garbage, also why we don't remember many baroque Beibers or Classical Beyonce because they didn't get to put their voices on a record. This is why I wouldn't say pop is making us dumber, it's just easy to sell in a world that increasingly has no time for the concert hall. 

Having said this, I am very skeptical of the, shall we say "taste" of modern society, at least where art is concerned..

It never fails to astound me how far we've come and continue to go, all the wonderful things we build and create and explore, yet popular tastes get seemingly dumber (quite frankly a trend that extends into most all our art forms these days, music, painting, films, ect.)


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

TwoFlutesOneTrumpet said:


> Why not do both?


I'm a klutz at multi-tasking.


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## Strange Magic (Sep 14, 2015)

hpowders said:


> I'm a klutz at multi-tasking.


How are you at cracking walnuts with a sledgehammer?


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Strange Magic said:


> How are you at cracking walnuts with a sledgehammer?


I dunno. I pay the butler to do that.

Hold on..... Hey, Waldstein! Crack me a good pair of nuts!!!


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

Strange Magic said:


> How are you at cracking walnuts with a sledgehammer?


Smash them to smithereens! Might be fun as I hate walnuts anyway. Not sure why anybody eats walnuts when the similar looking but far tastier pecans can be had.


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## Strange Magic (Sep 14, 2015)

Florestan said:


> Smash them to smithereens! Might be fun as I hate walnuts anyway. Not sure why anybody eats walnuts when the similar looking but far tastier pecans can be had.


I agree: pecans are much tastier. But walnuts return much more as a metaphor for deep thinking. One never reads of dinosaurs with brains the size of pecans; they were smarter than that. No, it's always walnuts.


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## isorhythm (Jan 2, 2015)

No, and I'm not sure what could possibly be gained by making generalizations like this. You only deprive yourself of music.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Florestan said:


> Smash them to smithereens! Might be fun as I hate walnuts anyway. Not sure why anybody eats walnuts when the similar looking but far tastier pecans can be had.


Walnuts are like Donizetti. Pecans are like Bellini.

You didn't realize that, did you?


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## jegreenwood (Dec 25, 2015)

Clairvoyance Enough said:


> To the OP:
> 
> I feel like you're trying to characterize pop music as the continuation of a tradition it was never part of in the first place. The twentieth century classical masters didn't pass the baton to the pop artists of today - serious composers of classical music gathered their influences and are still writing serious classical music.
> 
> The bands you're criticizing would belong more to the timeline of folk music, wouldn't they? If you don't go into rock and rap expecting 10 minute long thematic developments and other things entirely removed from their intent, you might appreciate them more. I don't think the masses went from headbanging to op. 131 to preferring 3-4 minute songs with comparatively easy melodies and rhythms; I think they've always preferred that, but I'm less than a novice of music history.


Sort of like this?


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## regenmusic (Oct 23, 2014)

PresenTense said:


> I HATE Classic FM, but this is funny :lol::lol:


Can we do one of these with at least 12 more rock and rap stars?


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## bioluminescentsquid (Jul 22, 2016)

I've come up with somewhat of a classification system of music. Originally, it only applied to classical, but I guess I'll stretch it to pop.

There are 3 levels music can give pleasure.

From easy to accomplish to hard to accomplish, there are

1. Virtuosity/Emotion/Freshness
This is pretty easy to do - in Classical music, I would say that this is a lot of the Romantics (Emotion), Ton Koopman, Il Giardino Armonico, Pancrace Royer (Virtuosity) etc. Toys with your emotions or impresses you with fast flashy things.

2. Grandeur/Religiosity
The next level up. Examples for me would be Messiaen, probably Beethoven's 9th, Scheidemann's Magnificats, Bach's organ works, Forqueray...

3. I don't know what to call it, so I'll call it "Soul"
Really rare - you need a thorough mastery of the previous levels to get here. You would be emotionally satisfied and hugely impressed by it, but often times, you won't know why, since it touches you at such a visceral level. Often a great sense of humility, even simplicity (even if it's a complex piece) which only emphasizes its beauty. E.g. Bach's Chaconne, St. Matthew, Sweelinck, some Froberger, Playing of Leonhardt (Probably many others)...

There are many overlaps, of course, but in general it's harder to accomplish, as a composer/performer, the higher you get. Same goes for listeners - it's hard to appreciate level 2 & 3 if you grew up on 1. I myself didn't realize that 3 existed until quite recently. 
That doesn't mean that a level 1 piece would be less enjoyable - it's just different ways of giving pleasure.

But back to Pop - I'll admit that I've found some pop music pretty emotionally pleasant in a way, but it's known that they do that by using specific formulae which ensure that people will like their music and that it will sell well. Thus, it stays safely within level 1, rarely venturing to higher levels, in fear of losing "popularity." That's also why a lot of pop sounds alike (although one could argue that about Vivaldi too). 
So, you could see pop not as something inherently superior or inferior, but just easier to accomplish as a performer or a listener, and thus more "popular"

See this study
http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0115255#pone.0115255.s001

Well, that's my half-baked hypothesis, anyways. I hope the rambling made sense.


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## Strange Magic (Sep 14, 2015)

Squid, thanks for posting the article. Looks interesting.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Let's not blame extraneous factors such as inherited genes and/or already established personality traits on listening to pop music!

That would be ridiculous! :lol::lol:


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## Marinera (May 13, 2016)

Well, talking about contemporary musical scene I think it's true that very often popularity does not equal quality. Actually, the gulf between the two can be so wide that said popularity could be achieved mainly through the presentation and 'the packaging' in other words sex appeal. In classical music such disparity when it existed was less obvious perhaps, and quality vs. popularity ratio was better balanced and justified.

I think the case with pop music is that it is not only the music is sold, but the whole idea of a certain lifestyle, 'a dream' maybe if you like, and it has a current vibe, immediacy that appeals to people who are looking for that sort of thing, just like the glamorous ads and so on.


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## TwoFlutesOneTrumpet (Aug 31, 2011)

Marinera said:


> Well, talking about contemporary musical scene I think it's true that very often popularity does not equal quality. Actually, the gulf between the two can be so wide that said popularity could be achieved mainly through the presentation and 'the packaging' in other words sex appeal. In classical music such disparity when it existed was less obvious perhaps, and quality vs. popularity ratio was better balanced and justified.
> 
> I think the case with pop music is that it is not only the music is sold, but the whole idea of a certain lifestyle, 'a dream' maybe if you like, and it has a current vibe, immediacy that appeals to people who are looking for that sort of thing, just like the glamorous ads and so on.


Excellent point. And that is why this kind of pop music(vast majority today) has very little to offer musically to the music connoisseur. Hence the disparaging remarks about it, which to me are justified.


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## Sonata (Aug 7, 2010)

Do people forget that classical music contains "pop" music of its day?

Waltzes, "Tafelmusik", plenty of classical era overtures.
Easy listening music is NOT a new concept. Simple music was being created centuries ago, and complex music is still being created today.


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## TwoFlutesOneTrumpet (Aug 31, 2011)

Sonata said:


> Do people forget that classical music contains "pop" music of its day?
> 
> Waltzes, "Tafelmusik", plenty of classical era overtures.
> Easy listening music is NOT a new concept. Simple music was being created centuries ago, and complex music is still being created today.


I'm perfectly fine with simple music. I have a problem with banal and tripe music, though, which is what most of pop is today. The newly-admitted word to Oxford dictionary comes to mind: craptacular.


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## Sonata (Aug 7, 2010)

TwoFlutesOneTrumpet said:


> I'm perfectly fine with simple music. I have a problem with banal and tripe music, though, which is what most of pop is today. The newly-admitted word to Oxford dictionary comes to mind: craptacular.


You may have missed my point...that "pop" music and "classical music" are not mutually exclusive genres in all cases. Your argument wasn't about modern music, it was about pop music in general


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## jailhouse (Sep 2, 2016)

Theres a difference between Pop music and "popular music", ie not traditionally instrumented classical music.

There is very little good Pop Music (Adele, Rihanna, Justin Bieber, Katy Perry, etc.), which overuses a common forumla:

Basic and repeated harmonic progressions that are borrowed and lifted from song to song

little variation in song structure

melodies that utilize zero chromaticism

over reliance on trendy virtual instrument plugins, when every producer uses the same ones you end up with a pop music field that all has the same timbre..everything sounds basically the same

over reliance on pitch correction plugins

over reliance on the catchiness of the hook. The entire idea behind modern day pop writing is keep rewriting until you get the most annoying earworm possible

over reliance on sexuality in the lyrics, music video, etc. to sell the music rather than the music itself

There are plenty of excellent Popular Music groups today, as there have been throughout the 20th century in a variety of different genres. 

Thundercat's new album just came out two days ago, an example of popular music as art, not a commodity. Check it out.


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## bioluminescentsquid (Jul 22, 2016)

jailhouse said:


> over reliance on sexuality in the lyrics, music video, etc. to sell the music rather than the music itself


Don don don, diri diri don don don don...


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## Sonata (Aug 7, 2010)

jailhouse said:


> Theres a difference between Pop music and "popular music", ie not traditionally instrumented classical music.
> 
> There is very little good Pop Music (*Adele*, Rihanna, Justin Bieber, Katy Perry, etc.), which overuses a common forumla:
> 
> ...


IMHO, Adele's music while pop is of a higher standard than the other examples you mention. There is more depth to the lyrics as well. I'm not saying it's highly cerebral, complex music, merely that it is an example of pop done with quality


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## TwoFlutesOneTrumpet (Aug 31, 2011)

Sonata said:


> You may have missed my point...that "pop" music and "classical music" are not mutually exclusive genres in all cases. Your argument wasn't about modern music, it was about pop music in general


It was about modern pop music, to be precise. I agree with you that classical music incorporates some popular music in its themes but that does not mean that the two genres have tight bonds. Using a popular melody as part of a bigger composition is quire different from listening to that melody as part of the popular song.


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## Strange Magic (Sep 14, 2015)

There must be some sort of psychological "something" going on with the steady drumbeat (horrors!) of hand-wringing over pop, however defined. It seems to provide release or justification or a feeling of righteousness that accounts for the practice of this genre-beating so that people can go back to their particular CM somehow feeling clean. I just wonder why people can't listen to music that pleases them without accumulating all that anti-whatever-they-don't-like sediment. Even in CM, considered _sensu lato_, there is plenty of stuff written and recorded that I wouldn't touch with a ten-foot pole. _De gustibus_, and you heard that here first.


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## TwoFlutesOneTrumpet (Aug 31, 2011)

Strange Magic said:


> There must be some sort of psychological "something" going on with the steady drumbeat (horrors!) of hand-wringing over pop, however defined. *It seems to provide release or justification or a feeling of righteousness that accounts for the practice of this genre-beating so that people can go back to their particular CM somehow feeling clean.* I just wonder why people can't listen to music that pleases them without accumulating all that anti-whatever-they-don't-like sediment. Even in CM, considered _sensu lato_, there is plenty of stuff written and recorded that I wouldn't touch with a ten-foot pole. _De gustibus_, and you heard that here first.


 Nah. I do my hand-wringing over today's pop because I find it(generally) truly craptacular. Nothing more, nothing less. No justification for anything or a feeling or righteousness involved.


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## Marinera (May 13, 2016)

Strange Magic said:


> There must be some sort of psychological "something" going on with the steady drumbeat (horrors!) of hand-wringing over pop, however defined. It seems to provide release or justification or a feeling of righteousness that accounts for the practice of this genre-beating so that people can go back to their particular CM somehow feeling clean. * I just wonder why people can't listen to music that pleases them without accumulating all that anti-whatever-they-don't-like sediment.* Even in CM, considered _sensu lato_, there is plenty of stuff written and recorded that I wouldn't touch with a ten-foot pole. _De gustibus_, and you heard that here first.


Because it accumulates itself, no effort on my part. The music that doesn't please me is just too popular to dodge it all the time. And it is not even cathartic to complain about it, it's just a running commentary on the state of things, but best is not to focus too much on it of course.


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## Rhinotop (Jul 8, 2016)

PresenTense said:


> I HATE Classic FM, but this is funny :lol::lol:


Hahaha... The comparison is derisory, it doesn't make sense. On the left side we have grandeur, beauty, dedication, passion, truly music sense, and on the right side, well... muck. Period.


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## Rhinotop (Jul 8, 2016)

We really are experiencing a time of musical stagnation. It is a real pity. It's not just pop. Genres such as reggaeton in Latin countries, mainly, is the most popular and the lyrics of their songs denigrate much to the women, treats them like sexual objects. I would have preferred to have lived in another age.


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## TwoFlutesOneTrumpet (Aug 31, 2011)

Rhinotop said:


> We really are experiencing a time of musical stagnation. It is a real pity. It's not just pop. Genres such as reggaeton in Latin countries, mainly, is the most popular and the lyrics of their songs denigrate much to the women, treats them like sexual objects. I would have preferred to have lived in another age.


Or how about living in this age but enjoying the best music from all ages?


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## Crassus (Nov 4, 2013)

Your thread reads like a wrong generation youtube comment


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

We may dislike contemporary pop music not merely because we find it intrinsically trite and sappy (or whatever), but because of its cultural significance, however we perceive that. I find contemporary culture - including art, manners and politics - rude, strident, shallow, cynical, narcissistic, ephemeral, and generally repugnant. When I listen to some of the genuinely popular music of my early years or my parents' generation (I'm 67, so that takes us back a bit), I hear finer sensibilities, as evidenced in deeper or wittier lyrics, more sophisticated melodies (not so dependent on the "hook" for memorability), or even the occasional key change (whoah!), as well as poised, well-trained singing voices that don't seem bent on blowing their tonsils through the microphone. These are not the only values in popular music, but insofar as I like popular music at all they are my values.

Nowadays I can walk into my local thrift store, be regaled with an eclectic selection of pop on "Goodwill radio," and hear not one single thing that doesn't make me want to finish shopping quickly and run for my sanity. Alas, my local supermarket, the next stop on my rounds, provides little relief. It's almost enough to make one write a fan letter to Dinah Shore.


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## regenmusic (Oct 23, 2014)

I think it would be a good way to teach music to our youths....just make those posters, a new classical composer for each new Rap/Rock star. i wonder how long that teacher would last?


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## Richard8655 (Feb 19, 2016)

Classical music was never the music of the masses. In Europe, music hall fare, shanties, traveller songs, folk melodies, etc. were the pop music of the day. It was mostly the wealthy, elite, urban middle classes, and educated who had the time and financial means to attend and appreciate formal concerts.

So generically, I don't think music of the past was any more serious or made people any "smarter" than today. It's a little naive and wishful to think that everyone used to listen to classic music and were more intellectual and cultured, and only now modern pop music has somehow taken over and made us mediocre. We were always the sum of society's music, and classical music always was and continues to be only a small slice of the pie. The historical demographics of popular music in society have hardly changed. So in that sense, I'd say we're just as mediocre now as then.


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## MarkW (Feb 16, 2015)

No, we were already dumb and mediocre. Pop music just confirmed it.


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## BabyGiraffe (Feb 24, 2017)

MarkW said:


> No, we were already dumb and mediocre. Pop music just confirmed it.


Are you talking about bubblegum pop?
Most of the traditional/ethnic/world or whatever is called is also considered pop (if we use the criteria of the typical "classical" snob).


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## Strange Magic (Sep 14, 2015)

I do hope that we all feel better now, now that we've gone through our tribal ritual of patting ourselves and one another on the back for the exquisiteness and refinement of our tastes. Champagne all around! Frasier and Niles, where are you?


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## Triplets (Sep 4, 2014)

Strange Magic said:


> The answer to your question is No. People either like classical or they don't. Whether they like pop or anything else has nothing to do with it. It's really a matter of early exposure, in most cases, but pitting different musics against one another in a "what's good/what's bad" comparison doesn't really get us anywhere. I like what I like; you like what you like, so let's find out what interests we share and groove on that.


The answer to the OP is an emphatic yes. The world is indeed dumber, especially, but not limited to musical matters, since the ascendency of pop music to our primary focus of cultural achievement


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## Strange Magic (Sep 14, 2015)

Things were better in the Good Old Days.


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

The sweeping generalizations about "pop music" made by several people in this thread are about as valid as someone giving opinions on classical music knowing only Andre Rieu's versions of Strauss waltzes.


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## TwoFlutesOneTrumpet (Aug 31, 2011)

Art Rock said:


> The sweeping generalizations about "pop music" made by several people in this thread are about as valid as someone giving opinions on classical music knowing only Andre Rieu's versions of Strauss waltzes.


Perhaps your definition of "pop" music is too inclusive?

This is the pop music I have in mind when I post in this thread 
http://www.billboard.com/charts/hot...5alocqg.0&utm_referrer=https://www.google.ca/


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Strange Magic said:


> I do hope that we all feel better now, now that we've gone through our tribal ritual of patting ourselves and one another on the back for the exquisiteness and refinement of our tastes. Champagne all around! *Frasier and **Niles, where are you?*


Right here, Roz.


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## Magnum Miserium (Aug 15, 2016)

Other way around: humanity became dumb and mediocre, and therefore started taking pop music too seriously.

By the way, there is a pretty good composer at work on some of David Bowie's records, but his name is Brian Eno.


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## cimirro (Sep 6, 2016)

Magnum Miserium said:


> Other way around: humanity became dumb and mediocre, and therefore started taking pop music too seriously.
> 
> By the way, there is a pretty good composer at work on some of David Bowie's records, but his name is Brian Eno.


He also worked with U2


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## Dr Johnson (Jun 26, 2015)

I was musically dumb (not sure about mediocre) _before_ I started listening to "pop" music.

Whatever appreciation for and understanding of music I have started with "pop" music.


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## Magnum Miserium (Aug 15, 2016)

cimirro said:


> He also worked with U2


More importantly he also worked with himself:


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

Woodduck said:


> We may dislike contemporary pop music not merely because we find it intrinsically trite and sappy (or whatever), but because of its cultural significance, however we perceive that. I find contemporary culture - including art, manners and politics - rude, strident, shallow, cynical, narcissistic, ephemeral, and generally repugnant. When I listen to some of the genuinely popular music of my early years or my parents' generation (I'm 67, so that takes us back a bit), I hear finer sensibilities, as evidenced in deeper or wittier lyrics, more sophisticated melodies (not so dependent on the "hook" for memorability), or even the occasional key change (whoah!), as well as poised, well-trained singing voices that don't seem bent on blowing their tonsils through the microphone. These are not the only values in popular music, but insofar as I like popular music at all they are my values.
> 
> Nowadays I can walk into my local thrift store, be regaled with an eclectic selection of pop on "Goodwill radio," and hear not one single thing that doesn't make me want to finish shopping quickly and run for my sanity. Alas, my local supermarket, the next stop on my rounds, provides little relief. It's almost enough to make one write a fan letter to Dinah Shore.


I assume the Dinah Shore reference is your little joke Woodduck. I'm only 68 and she was passé when I started listening to "popular" music. Which incidentally I still do. Plenty of room for the Beatles and the Beach Boys to sit on my shelves along with Berg and Brahms.


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## cimirro (Sep 6, 2016)

Magnum Miserium said:


> More importantly he also worked with himself:


Now I really agree


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## Sonata (Aug 7, 2010)

Strange Magic said:


> I do hope that we all feel better now, now that we've gone through our tribal ritual of patting ourselves and one another on the back for the exquisiteness and refinement of our tastes. Champagne all around! *Frasier and Niles, where are you?*


Love the reference!!! my husband and I are rewatching the whole Frasier series at the moment. I love all the opera references. heehe


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## Strange Magic (Sep 14, 2015)

"How much is that doggie in the window? The one with the waggily tail?"
"Aba daba daba, said the monkey to the chimp."


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## jailhouse (Sep 2, 2016)

Art Rock said:


> The sweeping generalizations about "pop music" made by several people in this thread are about as valid as someone giving opinions on classical music knowing only Andre Rieu's versions of Strauss waltzes.


no, my generalizations about Pop Music, IE Z100 pop music (chainsmokers, ed sheeran, katy perry, lil yachty, drake, weekend, etc) are pretty accurate. There's a difference between Pop Music on the Radio in 2017 and "Popular Music"

radio pop music of 2017 can very easily be categorized because much of it is extremely similar.


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## Sloe (May 9, 2014)

Strange Magic said:


> "How much is that doggie in the window? The one


I like that song.


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## StlukesguildOhio (Dec 25, 2006)

I started listening to "popular" music. Which incidentally I still do. Plenty of room for the Beatles and the Beach Boys to sit on my shelves along with Berg and Brahms.

Indeed. I've room for not only the Beatles and the Beach Boys and the Rolling Stones, but also Muddy Waters, Elmore James, Duke Ellington, Miles Davis, Frank Sinatra, Stevie Wonder, Al Green, Johnny Cash, Merle Haggard, George Jones, as well as Strauss II, Lehar, and Offenbach along side Bach, Mozart, and Stravinsky.


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## TwoFlutesOneTrumpet (Aug 31, 2011)

Isn't this a good representation of the pop music of today? http://www.billboard.com/charts/hot...5alocqg.0&utm_referrer=https://www.google.ca/

What do people think of this music?


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## Lyricus (Dec 11, 2015)

Strange Magic said:


> "How much is that doggie in the window? The one with the waggily tail?"


Say what you want about Patti Page, but she also put out this gem:






I find the very premise of this thread hilarious, as if the unwashed masses a few hundred years ago were all sophisticated purveyors of fine Classical sound. Pop music is just the consumerist-manufactured version of folk song.


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## TwoFlutesOneTrumpet (Aug 31, 2011)

Dr Johnson said:


> I was musically dumb (not sure about mediocre) _before_ I started listening to "pop" music.
> 
> Whatever appreciation for and understanding of music I have started with "pop" music.


Me too. I started with pop music in the 80s. But the appreciation developed with music like Pink Floyd, The Beatles and Dire Straits. And it further deepened with classical music.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Lyricus said:


> Pop music is just the consumerist-manufactured version of folk song.


I don't think so. Folk song is traditional. Melodies are created by individuals, adopted by a culture, often varied and refined over time, and passed from generation to generation, giving the people of a culture a sense of identity that endures through time. Some popular music has proved enduring and performed this cultural function, but we don't have a "folk culture" - i.e. a traditional culture. We have a mass media, mass market culture. It concerns itself with the fad of the moment, not with enduring values. No traditional culture could coin the term "retro," or listen to music for nostalgia.


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## jailhouse (Sep 2, 2016)

TwoFlutesOneTrumpet said:


> Isn't this a good representation of the pop music of today? http://www.billboard.com/charts/hot...5alocqg.0&utm_referrer=https://www.google.ca/
> 
> What do people think of this music?


yes, and almost all of it is very bad and fits the criteria I mentioned on page 4


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## Magnum Miserium (Aug 15, 2016)

Woodduck said:


> I don't think so. Folk song is traditional. Melodies are created by individuals, adopted by a culture, often varied and refined over time, and passed from generation to generation, giving the people of a culture a sense of identity that endures through time. Some popular music has proved enduring and performed this cultural function, but we don't have a "folk culture" - i.e. a traditional culture. We have a mass media culture. It concerns itself with the fad of the moment, not with enduring values. No traditional culture could coin the term "retro," or listen to music for nostalgia.


I think you and Lyricus may be violently agreeing - all of the above would seem to me to be why Lyricus said "the consumerist-manufactured version of folk song" as opposed to actual folk song.


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## Lyricus (Dec 11, 2015)

Woodduck said:


> I don't think so. Folk song is traditional. Melodies are created by individuals, adopted by a culture, often varied and refined over time, and passed from generation to generation, giving the people of a culture a sense of identity that endures through time. Some popular music has proved enduring and performed this cultural function, but we don't have a "folk culture" - i.e. a traditional culture. We have a mass media culture. It concerns itself with the fad of the moment, not with enduring values. No traditional culture could coin the term "retro," or listen to music for nostalgia.


Yes, there's a reason I specifically qualified it with "consumerist-manufactured." Edit: as Magnum Miserium said, we don't disagree there!

However, that last line isn't really true. For example, read Aristophanes' _Clouds_, and see how Strepsiades longs to hear the music of his childhood while being expressly disappointed with "new music" that his son listens to. All music, including folk music, goes through phases and gets altered by musicians along the way.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

Lyricus said:


> All music, including folk music, goes through phases and gets altered by musicians along the way.


Yes it does. For example, Neil Young made metal versions of American folk songs such as Oh Susannah. A whole album full of them.


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## Magnum Miserium (Aug 15, 2016)

Lyricus said:


> However, that last line isn't really true. For example, read Aristophanes' _Clouds_, and see how Strepsiades longs to hear the music of his childhood while being expressly disappointed with "new music" that his son listens to. All music, including folk music, goes through phases and gets altered by musicians along the way.


Strepsiades and his son are refugees from the country, now living in the city, so "new music" can there be understood as urban popular music as opposed to folk music.

Anyway, folk music certainly does change - one obvious example being the assimilation of African elements into Appalachian folk music.


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## DaveM (Jun 29, 2015)

Strange Magic said:


> There must be some sort of psychological "something" going on with the steady drumbeat (horrors!) of hand-wringing over pop, however defined. It seems to provide release or justification or a feeling of righteousness that accounts for the practice of this genre-beating so that people can go back to their particular CM somehow feeling clean. I just wonder why people can't listen to music that pleases them without accumulating all that anti-whatever-they-don't-like sediment. Even in CM, considered _sensu lato_, there is plenty of stuff written and recorded that I wouldn't touch with a ten-foot pole. _De gustibus_, and you heard that here first.


Well, here's one I've always liked by a writer who has a CM background:


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## Strange Magic (Sep 14, 2015)

How about this: "I know what I like, and I like what I know....."

Genesis' first biggie, _I Know What I Like (In Your Wardrobe)_, from Selling England by the Pound. I do know what I like.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

I once saw a bumper sticker that said,

"I hate the music you listen to!"

Pretty stupid statement!


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## TwoFlutesOneTrumpet (Aug 31, 2011)

Florestan said:


> I once saw a bumper sticker that said,
> 
> "I hate the music you listen to!"
> 
> Pretty stupid statement!


I say that through a megaphone whenever a car blasting rap music nears my car.


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## JAS (Mar 6, 2013)

Florestan said:


> I once saw a bumper sticker that said,
> 
> "I hate the music you listen to!"
> 
> Pretty stupid statement!


Probably some punk . . . literally.


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## JAS (Mar 6, 2013)

TwoFlutesOneTrumpet said:


> I say that through a megaphone whenever a car blasting rap music nears my car.


Too bad they probably cannot hear you.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

I always want to give them a very loud piece of the 1812 Overture when ever a car pulls up with way too loud rap music or other rot.


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## Sonata (Aug 7, 2010)

Florestan said:


> I always want to give them a very loud piece of the 1812 Overture when ever a car pulls up with way too loud rap music or other rot.


1812? I'd expect you'd blare some "Figaro, Figaro, Figaro!" or perhaps a fragment of Siegfried forging the sword


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

Sonata said:


> 1812? I'd expect you'd blare some "Figaro, Figaro, Figaro!" or perhaps a fragment of Siegfried forging the sword


Good Idea! Yes Nothung would be perfect! Siegfried Jerusalem too.


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## znapschatz (Feb 28, 2016)

Florestan said:


> Perhaps listening to pop music is like swilling down a lot of beer, whereas listening to classical is like sipping fine wines?


Depending on the classical piece, I wallow in it. For example, I might sip the Debussy Flute, Viola and Harp sonata, but I guzzle Wagner, and like with enough beer, get sloppy drunk on it.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

znapschatz said:


> Depending on the classical piece, I wallow in it. For example, I might sip the Debussy Flute, Viola and Harp sonata, *but I guzzle Wagner*, and like enough beer, get sloppy drunk on it.


Guzzle Wagner! I like it. Great way of putting it! We should have a chugging contest and see how many ring cycles we can put down in a row! :lol:


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