# Which opera would you recommend to a beginner?



## ningen (Jun 10, 2012)

Hello, everyone I am new to this forum and this is my first post.

I've been following some threads on this forum for quite a time now and I am very impressed and happy to have found a place where true opera lovers are gathered. As I am completely new to the field of opera, I was hoping that maybe you could recommend something to me.

I started to listen and watch opera very recently, to my great surprise, because I must admit I was never a fan of operatic singing and never thought I would be drawn to it one day. I only listened occasionally to a couple of very recognizable and rather "obvious" pieces like "L'amour est un oiseau rebelle" from Carmen or "Belle nuit, o nuit d'amour" from Les Contes d'Hoffmann. I play piano and I like classical music a lot, it's just opera that I never really used to like...

Until one day, about a month ago I became suddenly fascinated with Queen of the Night's "Der Holle Rache" aria from Die Zauberflote. I remembered hearing it long time ago when I watched the famous Milos Forman's film Amadeus and I started to search for this aria on youtube. I came across the very well known (I guess) performance by Diana Damrau in 2003 production at Covent Garden and it completely blew me away! I would never expect any operatic piece to have such an impact on me, I couldn't resist watching and hearing it over and over again and the acting and the interpretation of this role had me overwhelmed.

After that I searched a litlle for Die Zauberflote, read a synopsis and became very interested. Luckily I could find the whole opera on youtube, exactly the one with Damrau and I watched it despite the fact the quality was not great, in fact the whole act 2 has video and sound badly synchronized, but anyway I was so drawn do it that it didn't matter and I watched the whole thing. And I fell immediately in love with it.

As I was curious what other productions of Die Zauberflote might be like, I watched 2 more versions that were available on youtube, one from 2001 Paris with Piotr Beczala and Desiree Rancatore and then the one form Salzburg Festival conducted by Muti. They didn't appeal to me as much as the first one, I definitely preferred the rather dark and "serious" staging, but anyway I fount it to be a wonderful experience and also I discovered that I love the music itself more and more every time. Die Zauberflote became my little addiction, I would search the internet for all availabale renditions and would listen and watch my favourite fragments repeatedly.

Naturally I wanted to try out some other operas and I chose Carmen because I already knew some fragments. I was very lucky to find a new MET production with Elina Garanca and Roberto Alagna on youtube and I loved it for the most part. I was utterly impressed by such pieces as "Pres des remparts de Seville" or "Les tringles des sistres tantaient" and now I am listening to them very often.

Today I have just watched MET's Don Pasquale with Anna Netrebko and I also liked it a lot. I didn't find the music so compelling as in the two operas I watched previously but it was definitely worth it just for the magnificent cast and it was a very enjoyable experience on the whole.

Right now I am a little confused. I would definitely want to continue my adventure with opera after this little introduction I have had. But I don't have the slightest idea what to decide on, there is some much to choose from, even on youtube...

What could you recommend to a newbie like myself? I lived in many years with a conviction that opera is boring and I will never get to like it. Now I see that it has changed, however I guess there are some operas in existence that could easily discourage me. I assume I have a rather simple taste... I have described briefly what I liked - what do you think could be the next step one for me? I must admit that I'm a little bored by long recitatives that drag on, especially male ones. I tried to watch Le Nozze di Figaro but for some reason I gave up after the first act. Maybe it wasn't a particularly good day for me or something, I don't really know. Or perhaps I chose badly. The one I started watching was Salzburg production conducted by Harnoncourt, with Netrebko and Dorothea Roschmann.

I assume I am rather floating towards newer productions because the video and sound quality seem better, but maybe it is just my feeling. And also, I noticed that I am automatically more willing to see an opera that has a singer I already know and like in it, rather than to one where the whole cast is completely new to me.

As I don't want to spend much money on DVD's - unfortunately they are quite expensive - and there doesn't seem to be anything particularly interesting going on in the opera theatre where I live, could you recommend any particular production watchable online? I know there are really many. Or perhaps some CD recordings which in your opinion are worth having? As for now, however, I think the best way for me to be accquainted with a new thing is to watch a DVD, perhaps a CD after that to get to know the music better.

I would be most grateful to hear some of your suggestions. Thank you very much in advance.

Also, I am very sorry for any mistakes. English is not my mother tongue and I have not used it for quite a long time. I hope it is not so awful to read...

With best regards,
ningen


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## sospiro (Apr 3, 2010)

Hello ningen & welcome to the forum.

Your English is excellent but your question is almost impossible to answer! It sounds like you have made the sort of start many of us make. We find a singer or an aria that we really like & the interest develops from there. Mine was an interest in José Carreras and I started collecting his CDs, first collections of arias then opera CDs.

My favourite operas are in Italian & my favourite composer is Verdi so my recommendation would be _La traviata_ or _Rigoletto_ but everyone is different & you may not like these at all.

There are lots of complete operas on YouTube & we have a thread. Another thread which you might like is about some of our opera journeys.

Good luck with your journey!


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## NightHawk (Nov 3, 2011)

Humperdinck - Hansel and Gretel - if you don't know it, the music is gorgeous (H was a copyist for Wagner, so the orchestration is a plush and rich romanticism but mixed with the style of Austrian folk song) - Richard Strauss conducted the premiere around the turn of the century to rave reviews in Vienna. The best recording, hands down, is with Anna Moffo as Gretel, she only recorded it once, so find hers and you've got it. It's one of the few operas that is difficult to turn off once you start listening! Just writing about it makes me want to put it on.


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## LordBlackudder (Nov 13, 2010)

a good start


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## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

You have made a great start - If you like Zauberflote you may have fertile ears for other Mozart operas and then nirvana will be yours. But not necessarily - I know people who can't stand Mozart operas but love Zauberflote.
To test it though I would next go for Die Entfuhrung Aus Dem Serail. Try to get the recording by Karl Bohm (70s) or see the DG video version with Bohm which is excellent. The music is bubbly and brilliant - all the arias are superb. If you like that - take a break from Mozart and go for Verdi and Puccini - Traviata/Il Trovatore by the former are fantastic - Boheme and Turandot by the latter are full of wonderful music. Then see if you like the three Mozart/Daponte operas - if you like those - welcome to heaven.


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## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

I gotta go with _sospiro_, La Traviata and Rigoletto, because the arias are fine music; you may end up singing them in the shower. The Magic Flute is great as a forerunner of Broadway musical comedy, but those Verdi works are a step beyond as music. You may not be 'advanced' enough for Berlioz's Les Troyens, but maybe you ought to go for it anyway; storyline, arias and instrumental music are all first class. And then... Stravinsky's Oedipus Rex makes amazingly effective use of a pretty dumb plot.


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## emiellucifuge (May 26, 2009)

LordBlackudder said:


> a good start


How exactly is that an opera?


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## sospiro (Apr 3, 2010)

Hilltroll72 said:


> You may not be 'advanced' enough for Berlioz's Les Troyens, but maybe you ought to go for it anyway; storyline, arias and instrumental music are all first class.




I've a _bit_ of a _Les Troyens_ obsession at the moment & would recommend it to anybody. And this is the DVD to get.


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

R. Strauss - Elektra
R. Wagner - Das Rheingold
C. Debussy - Pelléas et Mélisande


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

The problem with the version of Le Nozze that you tried is that it is dark and depressing. Try this version: 

Playlist Le Nozze di Figaro






Die Entfuhrung aus dem serail:






La Traviata:






Rigoletto


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## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

Hilltroll72 said:


> I gotta go with _sospiro_, The Magic Flute is great as a forerunner of Broadway musical comedy, but those Verdi works are a step beyond as music.


Utter nonsense.
I suggest you listen and make up your own mind.


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

*Warning: *If you choose to play the following video, you will encounter the most beautiful, passionate, exhausting, and inexhaustible music ever written. The beauty of all other music will be dulled in comparison. You may search to the ends of the earth to find something else as beautiful: your search will be in vain.

The choice is yours.


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## StlukesguildOhio (Dec 25, 2006)

Hilltroll72- I gotta go with sospiro, _The Magic Flute_ is great as a forerunner of Broadway musical comedy, but those Verdi works are a step beyond as music.

stomanek- Utter nonsense. I suggest you listen and make up your own mind.[/QUOTE]

Utter nonsense indeed! I love _La Traviata_ as much as anyone. It was the first opera I ever saw (In Zeffirelli's classic film version with Placido Domingo and Maria Stratas) and I couldn't get _Un dì, felice, eterea_ out of my head for weeks. I feel the same even now after hearing the work again. But to suggest that The Magic Flute... or any of Mozart's major operas are in any way a step beneath/behind Verdi is absolute nonsense. The only operas I'd place on the same level (let alone above) Mozart's 4 greatest operas (_Don Giovanni, Le nozze di Figaro, Cosi fan tutte_, and _The Magic Flute_) are Wagner's _Tristan und Isolde_, the _Ring Cycle_, and _Parsifal_... and it looks like I am not alone: all 4 of Mozart's greatest operas made the top twenty on Talk Classical's list of "greatest" operas:

http://www.talkclassical.com/11676-talk-classical-top-272-a.html

While according to Operabase.com the top 6 most performed operas are as follows:

1. Mozart- Die Zauberflote 
2. Mozart- Don Giovanni 
3. Verdi- La Traviata 
4. Mozart- Le nozze di Figaro 
5. Puccini- La Boheme 
6. Mozart- Cosi fan tutte

Broadway musical?:lol:


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

Mozart's operas are musically flawless and dramatically flawed. When you realize this you're free to enjoy them.


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

Britten's Albert Herring is a fun one to start off with, but once you really want to get into opera, Tristan und Isolde (the version that Couchie has recommended) is the ultimate expierience for any opera fan.


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

Couchie said:


> Mozart's operas are musically flawless and dramatically flawed. When you realize this you're free to enjoy them.


Le Nozze di Figaro and Don Giovanni are in no way dramatically flawed. They are perfect.


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

mamascarlatti said:


> Le Nozze di Figaro and Don Giovanni are in no way dramatically flawed. They are perfect.


Le Nozze di Figaro - Arias are almost always discarded from this because they're dramatically irrelevant.
Don Giovanni - Doesn't end with commendatore scene. The moralizing ensemble at the end ruins it.


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

Couchie said:


> Le Nozze di Figaro - Arias are almost always discarded from this because they're dramatically irrelevant.
> Don Giovanni - Doesn't end with commendatore scene. The moralizing ensemble at the end ruins it.


I'm with Couchie on this one.


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## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

I put only Verdi's Otelllo on Mozart's top level.


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## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

Couchie said:


> Le Nozze di Figaro - Arias are almost always discarded from this because they're dramatically irrelevant.
> Don Giovanni - Doesn't end with commendatore scene. The moralizing ensemble at the end ruins it.


I agree that there are some dramatically irrelevant arias - like the silly Leporello/Zerlina duet. As for Figaro - which arias did you have in mind? 
The ensemble at the end of Don Giovanni is both dramatically and musically necessary - though I agree that daponte could have done a better job for Mozart.


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## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

Verdi did not rate Mozart as an opera composer - her referred to him as a quartet composer.


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## trazom (Apr 13, 2009)

Couchie said:


> Don Giovanni - Doesn't end with commendatore scene. The moralizing ensemble at the end ruins it.


If it had ended with the commendatore scene, it WOULD have been moralizing. The survivors in the end congratulate themselves, proving that they have learned nothing, which is part of the philosophy of the opera.
Without the sextette, the opera becomes a truncated moral lesson. With the sextette, the themes of sin and punishment become much more ambiguous, and the human condition, which is mocked in the sextette is made to look much more ridiculous.


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

trazom said:


> If it had ended with the commendatore scene, it WOULD have been moralizing. The survivors in the end congratulate themselves, proving that they have learned nothing, which is part of the philosophy of the opera.
> Without the sextette, the opera becomes a truncated moral lesson. With the sextette, the themes of sin and punishment become much more ambiguous, and the human condition, which is mocked in the sextette is made to look much more ridiculous.


The philosophy of an opera should not supplant the drama. See Wagner.


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## trazom (Apr 13, 2009)

stomanek said:


> Verdi did not rate Mozart as an opera composer - her referred to him as a quartet composer.


That's not my interpretation of it. Here's a rough translation of his draft letter where that statement came from:

"We shouldn't write like Germans, nor should Germans write like us. Let the Germans borrow our characteristics, as did Haydn and Mozart in their day, remaining quartettisti notwithstanding; (…) but to give in to fashion, or affectation, or a mania for novelty, and deny our own art, our instinct, that sure, spontaneous, natural, sensitive, sparkling manner which is ours, is absurd and stupid."

He's saying that Haydn and Mozart both absorbed elements of Italian music without losing their own style.


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## Hesoos (Jun 9, 2012)

My answer is L'Elisir d'amore!!!

I don't like a lot Carmen, but usually is said that is the favourite of all the public. But, for me Carmen's story is not so nice and is too long for a beginner. 
Mozart is great, Le Nozze and Don Giovanni are brilliant but too long for beginners.

In my opinion, who is not usued to listen opera, needs some opera with a story that hook interested to the end, and fast action. The music shoud be help to remember and passionate. The opera shoudn't be too long. A good DVD with subtitles is perhaps the best way.

L'Elisir d'Amore is really a good begin, the arias are really nice and the story is fun and sentimental :kiss:. The aria "una furtiva lagrima" :tiphat: is one of the best arias of all the opera's history. I could say that l'Elisir d'Amore is like a New York's comedy movie, it's a short and light opera. 
A very short and passionate opera is I Pagliacci (There's another great aria "vesti la giubba- ridi pagliaccio!":tiphat:
Maybe Verdi is the best for beginners because of his operas are full of great arias and these are not too much long. I agree with La Traviata and Rigoletto, these two have a fast action and they are help of understanding. 
If the style of La traviata and Rigoletto won't do, try Aida. Aida have a lot of choirs and the music is difficult to forget. 
Wagner's operas requires a lot of concentration and they are so long... But, The Rhin's gold (the first of the Ring of the Nibelungs) can be apropriate.
So, I write a short list of operas that will can do in my opinion. This list is not my personal preferences.

?1. Carmen??
1. L'elisir d'amore - I Pagliacci
2. La traviata- Rigoletto
3. Aida
If you like so much Verdi you can continue with: Il trovatore, Macbeth, Nabucco, Ernani ...
4. Il barbiere di Siviglia
If Rossini is better than Verdi you can try with Mozart
5. Don Giovanni- Le nozze di figaro
If you want to try a different style perhaps Wagner will do: 
6. The Rhin's gold - The Flying Dutchman
If Wagner in your opinion is the best, The Valkyrie and Tristan and Isolde are very nice
If you like both, Verdi and Wagner, you perhaps like Puccini
7. Tosca - Boheme - Madama Butterfly
These days french opera is not so listened than italian opera, but whenever you like try.
8. Faust -Les troyens -Hoffmann's tales


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## Hesoos (Jun 9, 2012)

Les troyens is wonderful, the best french opera ever! But is too long for a beginer. I have a bit of Les Troyens obsession too! How strange! The Berlioz's music is so descriptive and brilliant! I have the same version, but I like to buy the Met's version with Domingo and Norman; nobody know if is it good?


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

No one has suggested Monteverdi's fabulous L'Orfeo yet?


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## Hesoos (Jun 9, 2012)

L'Orfeo is too original or strange maybe. It's nice, but a beginner maybe don't understand the music. 
I'm not sure, but Barroc opera is perhaps strange for a beginner, who has listened some arias, choirs or instrumental music from The magic flute, Carmen, La Traviata, Der Ring, etc...


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## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

If you fancy another shot at Donizetti try Maria Stuarda - the music is good and has a plot which is refreshingly non-convoluted, even if it does play fast and loose with history! There's a good recording with Sutherland on Decca. For somewhat lighter fare (but not operetta) try Puccini's hour-long Gianni Schicchi - a real hoot from start to finish (Van Dam, Alagna and Gheorghiou on EMI - part of the Il Trittico three-opera set).


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## sospiro (Apr 3, 2010)

Hesoos said:


> Les troyens is wonderful, the best french opera ever! But is too long for a beginer. I have a bit of Les Troyens obsession too! How strange! The Berlioz's music is so descriptive and brilliant! I have the same version, but I like to buy the Met's version with Domingo and Norman; nobody know if is it good?


I haven't got the Met version but I've heard it's very good. I also have this DVD








and these CDs


















Slightly prefer the Davis but only slightly.

I agree it's not one for a beginner and when I first heard it I didn't like it! But now it's one of my favourites & I'm seeing it soon at Royal Opera House.


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## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

trazom said:


> That's not my interpretation of it. Here's a rough translation of his draft letter where that statement came from:
> 
> "We shouldn't write like Germans, nor should Germans write like us. Let the Germans borrow our characteristics, as did Haydn and Mozart in their day, remaining quartettisti notwithstanding; (…) but to give in to fashion, or affectation, or a mania for novelty, and deny our own art, our instinct, that sure, spontaneous, natural, sensitive, sparkling manner which is ours, is absurd and stupid."
> 
> He's saying that Haydn and Mozart both absorbed elements of Italian music without losing their own style.


I think there is another reference to Mozart somewhere - I have a book called "Mozart and Posterity" I will try to find that reference.


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

Hesoos said:


> L'Orfeo is too original or strange maybe. It's nice, but a beginner maybe don't understand the music.
> I'm not sure, but Barroc opera is perhaps strange for a beginner, who has listened some arias, choirs or instrumental music from The magic flute, Carmen, La Traviata, Der Ring, etc...


Well, I think for a beginner it would be best to open up their mind with a wide range of operas from all styles rather than limiting them to your ordinary Mozart, Bel Canto, Verdi and Puccini. The good thing about hearing L'Orfeo is that the listener learns about the beginnings of opera. I know it isn't the first opera composed, but it is the earliest opera that is frequently performed. Baroque opera being "strange?" I've never heard that before. 

Having said that, I will make a list of several operas in chronological order that would be good for the beginning opera fan:

Monteverdi: L'Orfeo
Purcell: Dido and Aeneas
Handel: Giulio Cesare in Egitto
Gluck: Orfeo ed Euridice
Mozart: Don Giovanni (or another Da Ponte opera)
Mozart: Die Zauberflöte
Rossini: Barber of Seville (or Cenerentola etc. )
Bellini: La Sonnambula
Donizetti: La Fille du Régiment
Verdi: La Traviata
Wagner: Das Rheingold might be a good place to start. It isn't as slow paced as Tristan und Isolde and if you're into this kind of music, you can continue with Die Walküre, Siegfried and Götterdämmerung
Bizet: Carmen
Humperdinck: Hansel and Gretel
Puccini: La Bohème
Strauss: Salome
Berg: Wozzeck
Gershwin: Porgy and Bess (the original opera with the recitative, not the abridged broadway musical version)
Britten: Albert Herring
Stravinsky: The Rake's Progress
Glass: Akhnaten
Adams: Nixon in China

That list of operas should be enough for a beginner to start with. By listening or seeing these, the beginner should have a comprehensive knowledge of opera and can choose what genre they like best rather than only being exposed to the opera favourites that others have recommended here.


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## TxllxT (Mar 2, 2011)

For a beginner in opera I think, you have to get acquainted with both the dramatic side (example: Don Giovanni being given hell) and the lyrical side (just beautiful singing, forgetting everything else). Once you feel the attraction of these moving rocks in the high seas of operas, just let yourself be tied to the mast and turn up the volume!


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

sospiro said:


> I agree it's not one for a beginner and when I first heard it I didn't like it! But now it's one of my favourites & *I'm seeing it soon at Royal Opera House.*


Wow me too. Let's go together. 
Wait, we ARE going together!


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## sospiro (Apr 3, 2010)

mamascarlatti said:


> Wow me too. Let's go together.
> Wait, we ARE going together!


Hehe. Remember my pathetic email saying I just couldn't get into it & couldn't sit through four and a half hours of that? I'd get tickets for you but you'd have to go on your own?


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## Arsakes (Feb 20, 2012)

It has many different CD covers


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

sospiro said:


> Hehe. Remember my pathetic email saying I just couldn't get into it & couldn't sit through four and a half hours of that? I'd get tickets for you but you'd have to go on your own?


Yes, and now I'M the one worrying about the inordinate length and numb bums!


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## ningen (Jun 10, 2012)

Wow! Thank you so much for all your suggestions I wasn't expecting such a huge response in such a short time.

But, to be honest, I think I'm even more confused right now! It is wonderful to see how you all have slightly different tastes but it makes it so much harder for me to choose the next opera... Anyway, your comments only made me want to eventually get to know all of the operas, especially the most popular ones, and now I'm thinking that perhaps the order is not so important.

I think I will next go with La Traviata because I know it's one on the most popular and often performed and many of you have written about it. And then perhaps I will try once more with Mozart, maybe Le nozze or Die Entfuhrung. Anyway, it will have to wait some time because right now I am busy with my exams and would not have time to watch opera until the end of the month at least... Later I will let you know how my adventure with opera goes, if you are interested

And of course, let's continue this topic if you want to say anything. I will be very happy to know your opinions about anything connected with opera!


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## tahnak (Jan 19, 2009)

A beginner would be looking to tread on soft and easy ground where opera is concerned.
My recommendations would be to start with the operettas
1. Johann Strauss Jr. Die Fledermaus
2. Franz Lehar Die Lustige Witwe
3. Gioacchino Rossini Il Barbiere di Siviglia
4. Wolfgand Amadeus Mozart Die Zauberflote
5. Georges Bizet Carmen


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## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

I came to love opera through th music - I loved Le Nozze Di Figaro long before I had a good grasp of the plot. Same with Die Zauberflote - and also Il Trovatore, La Traviata, La Boheme. It was mainly through repeated listenings in the car. Then - as I began to go and see live performances - I read up on the story and came to a fuller appreciation. 
But I also want to say that I was lucky - chose well - chose operas for which a highlights CD us a hopeless task - take an opera like Carmen or Il Trovatore, or any of half a dozen Mozart operas - or La Boheme. Everything is a highlight - it's all beautiful if you have an ear for it and you are patient. That is why I have doubts about some of the suggestions made in this thread - for example - Rossini's operas - which are much to be admired and have many excellent things - but which might leave your interest flagging for stretches of time while you wait for the next fine area or duet. Wagner is another who might just put you off - take Tristan and Isolde - one of the longest operas ever written - and which has the most incredible final act you might ever hear - but which you have to wait hours to reach. I am sure that many will disagree but that is how I see it. Go for the operas which most consistently pack opera houses around the world, mainly Mozart, Verdi, Puccini, Bizet.


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## Vesteralen (Jul 14, 2011)

Another vote for Die Zauberflote. I personally found recitative the biggest stumbling block to liking opera. It's nice that there's a major work like this of the singspiel variety.


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## Bardamu (Dec 12, 2011)

stomanek said:


> I came to love opera through th music - I loved Le Nozze Di Figaro long before I had a good grasp of the plot. Same with Die Zauberflote - and also Il Trovatore, La Traviata, La Boheme. It was mainly through repeated listenings in the car. Then - as I began to go and see live performances - I read up on the story and came to a fuller appreciation.
> But I also want to say that I was lucky - chose well - chose operas for which a highlights CD us a hopeless task - take an opera like Carmen or Il Trovatore, or any of half a dozen Mozart operas - or La Boheme. Everything is a highlight - it's all beautiful if you have an ear for it and you are patient. That is why I have doubts about some of the suggestions made in this thread - for example - Rossini's operas - which are much to be admired and have many excellent things - but which might leave your interest flagging for stretches of time while you wait for the next fine area or duet. Wagner is another who might just put you off - take Tristan and Isolde - one of the longest operas ever written - and which has the most incredible final act you might ever hear - but which you have to wait hours to reach. I am sure that many will disagree but that is how I see it. Go for the operas which most consistently pack opera houses around the world, mainly Mozart, Verdi, Puccini, Bizet.


Fully agree with stomanek (except on Rossini, maybe my understanding of italian helped out but ,for example, il Barbiere is enjoyable from start to finish IMO).

As for my general suggestion in these cases I always recommend Cavalleria Rusticana ( short, full of great melodies and passion ) and Il Barbiere di Siviglia ( wickedly fun and full to brim with great music ) although I don't regard them as the best work of respective composers.


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## myaskovsky2002 (Oct 3, 2010)

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> Well, I think for a beginner it would be best to open up their mind with a wide range of operas from all styles rather than limiting them to your ordinary Mozart, Bel Canto, Verdi and Puccini. The good thing about hearing L'Orfeo is that the listener learns about the beginnings of opera. I know it isn't the first opera composed, but it is the earliest opera that is frequently performed. Baroque opera being "strange?" I've never heard that before.
> 
> Having said that, I will make a list of several operas in chronological order that would be good for the beginning opera fan:
> 
> ...


Too much stuff! And Wozzeck
(Woyzeck) for a beginner? No way...I think you ceased to be a beginner long time ago, my friend. Beginners are asking for:

- easy to memorize stuff,
- simple stuff,
- touching or romatic stuff.

You can find these elements mostly in Italian opera and some French

La Bohème, Traviata, I Pagliacci, Madama Butterfly, Rigoletto, Lakme (French, Delibes), Fra Diabolo (French, Auber), Faust (Gounod). I hate Traviata and I Pagliacci, but i would recommend these as an excellent "starter"...or hors d'œuvre.

Arrivederci!
A +

Martino


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## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

myaskovsky2002 said:


> Too much stuff! And Wozzeck
> (Woyzeck) for a beginner? No way...I think you ceased to be a beginner long time ago, my friend. Beginners are asking for:
> 
> - easy to memorize stuff,
> ...


I agree! And Wagner, Britten - an odd starter's list indeed.


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## Hesoos (Jun 9, 2012)

A beginner needs to fast action, short stories and help music, like L'elisir d'Amore or La Traviata.
Giulio Cesare in Egitto is too heavy for a beginner.


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## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

mamascarlatti said:


> Yes, and now I'M the one worrying about the inordinate length and numb bums!


Bring a pillow; one of those donut things intended for piles sufferers ought to work.

And you should make a bootleg recording, of course.


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## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

I do agree that the sweeping runaway melodies and other paraphernalia of 19thC Italian opera such as Traviata and Trovatore are more likely to attract a beginner than Mozart or anything before him - so if I were trying to impress a willing beginnner I would probably offer highlights cds of those operas only offer Mozart (most likely some carefully selected highlights from Die Zauberflote) if I drew a blank there.


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## myaskovsky2002 (Oct 3, 2010)

Hesoos said:


> A beginner needs to fast action, short stories and help music, like L'elisir d'Amore or La Traviata.
> Giulio Cesare in Egitto is too heavy for a beginner.


La traviata, L'elisir are not bad for beginners, they have action! My son started with Traviata when he was three years old!

Fast action, short stories...you said, these two operas meet these criteria (IMHO).

Martino Bertinovich, LOL


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## myaskovsky2002 (Oct 3, 2010)

I'll send you some stuff!

Martin


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

Hesoos said:


> A beginner needs to fast action, short stories and help music, like L'elisir d'Amore or La Traviata.
> *Giulio Cesare in Egitto is too heavy for a beginner*.


It's in my top three, but I agree.... unless you get this. This entranced my 7-year-old:










You can see what you think on YouTube:


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## myaskovsky2002 (Oct 3, 2010)

I'll send it again. My Ipad seems to be limited. I'll use my computer.


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## myaskovsky2002 (Oct 3, 2010)

[video] 



 [/video]
[video] 



 [/video]
[video] 



 [/video]

Just one little opera, a GREAT one, GUSTAV III (from Sweden) by Daniel Auber.

Every link is wrong, I will send it again right away.

I love it! You will certainly love it too!

Martin


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## myaskovsky2002 (Oct 3, 2010)

Just one opera for starting: Gustav III (from Sweden) by the great Daniel Esprit Auber.

Be careful, many people are showing off around here, they give you titles and more titles following their own tastes. For a beginner, this is quite good. The story is the same than in Ballo in maschera, Verdi copied from him! Un ballo in maschera is also great:










Concentrate in a few, take your time...Listen to them at least 3 or 4 times before changing.

- understand;
- memorize a bit;
- take pleasure.

These are MY suggestions. I don't have the crystal ball. LOL

Martin, the wizard of Quebec or Argentina (not clearly defined)


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## myaskovsky2002 (Oct 3, 2010)

An again you have the sorceress scene...this time on the Verdi's opera...Coincidences? No...Just copy paste by Verdi!






Martin, copy-paste


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## myaskovsky2002 (Oct 3, 2010)

mamascarlatti said:


> It's in my top three, but I agree.... unless you get this. This entranced my 7-year-old:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


This contemporary version seems very interesting FOR YOU, just for YOU.

Martin


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

Hesoos said:


> A beginner needs to fast action, short stories and help music, like L'elisir d'Amore or La Traviata.
> Giulio Cesare in Egitto is too heavy for a beginner.


Giulo Cesare was the first opera I saw. It was the one that made me want to see operas on a regular basis. For fast action operas with short stories and catchy tunes, see Albert Herring by Benjamin Britten. I've seen it and I can tell you, it is the one to see when starting out on opera. The story is brilliant, direct and easy to follow and the music is absolutely magnificent!


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## myaskovsky2002 (Oct 3, 2010)

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> Giulo Cesare was the first opera I saw. It was the one that made me want to see operas on a regular basis. For fast action operas with short stories and catchy tunes, see Albert Herring by Benjamin Britten. I've seen it and I can tell you, it is the one to see when starting out on opera. The story is brilliant, direct and easy to follow and the music is absolutely magnificent!


I haven't seen this opera...Did I miss something? Could you post something on youtube to have an idea. I saw Billy Bud and the rape of Lucretia, I quit the theatre when the second act was finished...Lucretia could live without me, I said! The only opera I really loved was his very last Death in Venice by Thomas Mann. And I won'ty suggest this to a beginner...

Martin. always a beginner


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## myaskovsky2002 (Oct 3, 2010)

Glinka's Ruslan and Ludmila...Like Chocolate.

And...Tcherevichky (Tchaikovsky):










Martin


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## myaskovsky2002 (Oct 3, 2010)

Some information about

Михал Иванович Глинка (Mikhail Ivanovich Glinka)

http://russiapedia.rt.com/prominent-russians/music/mikhail-glinka/

Martin Bertinovich


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

myaskovsky2002 said:


> This contemporary version seems very interesting FOR YOU, just for YOU.
> 
> Martin


I have been posting on this site for several years and have had many conversations on the subject of this particular DVD. Most other people on this site, and everywhere else I have read reviews of this, are universally admiring and in praise of this great production.

It was picked out by 11 out of 12 voters in TC's most recommended DVDs of Giulio Cesare.

Here are some comments by Elgarian:

http://www.talkclassical.com/11641-handel-dvd-blu-ray.html#post39723

And jhar26

http://www.talkclassical.com/11641-handel-dvd-blu-ray.html#post110180
http://www.talkclassical.com/11641-handel-dvd-blu-ray.html#post110180

It seems to me, Martin, that you have not even bothered to watch this before making your comment. If you had, you would realise that it is in no way contemporary, but rather set in the days of the militant British Empire, which makes perfect sense as a parallel to Caesar conquering Egypt


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## myaskovsky2002 (Oct 3, 2010)

mamascarlatti said:


> I have been posting on this site for several years and have had many conversations on the subject of this particular DVD. Most other people on this site, and everywhere else I have read reviews of this, are universally admiring and in praise of this great production.
> 
> It was picked out by 11 out of 12 voters in TC's most recommended DVDs of Giulio Cesare.
> 
> ...


I took a quick look and maybe it is not "contemporary (XXIst century)", but Caesar is not Caesar...but probably a dictator...Like once I saw Carmen situated in Franco's time. I don't like this kind of "it makes sense but it doesn't". I like operas in their *original stages*, usually. like Figaro with XVIIIth century stuff...and wigs and stuff....Once I bought by mistake a Lohengrin (quite cheap) in the XXth century. I could not watch it. It is just taking some dust in my shelf. One of the very best Lohengrin after the comments is Zubin Mehta, the stage is kind of actual...I didn't buy it. Question of tastes. I think we have already discussed about this matter in another thread. Please no offense. I'm glad you like it. I like Haendel's operas with original stages...Sometimes, I enjoy weirdness (e.g. Zubin Mehta's Der Ring) kind of Star wars as a *curiosity*...on Blu Ray is also more impressive. But it is my third Ring on DVD/Blu Ray. I have two more traditional versions...When I decide to have just one, please give me a traditional stage, I'll enjoy it much more.

Martin, dusty


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

myaskovsky2002 said:


> I took a quick look and maybe it is not "contemporary (XXIst century)", but Caesar is not Caesar...but probably a dictator...Like once I saw Carmen situated in Franco's time. I don't like this kind of "it makes sense but it doesn't". I like operas in their *original stages*, usually. like Figaro with XVIIIth century stuff...and wigs and stuff......When I decide to have just one, please give me a traditional stage, I'll enjoy it much more.


So in effect we are talking about YOU not enjoying any kind of change of time and setting rather than MY idiosyncratic tastes.

Interestingly Elgarian, the first poster I quoted, shares this distate, but was quite won over by this particular DVD. Maybe you should give it a go rather than just skimming through. It does need to be watched properly to get the full impact.


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## myaskovsky2002 (Oct 3, 2010)

mamascarlatti said:


> So in effect we are talking about YOU not enjoying any kind of change of time and setting rather than MY idiosyncratic tastes.
> 
> Interestingly Elgarian, the first poster I quoted, shares this distate, but was quite won over by this particular DVD. Maybe you should give it a go rather than just skimming through. It does need to be watched properly to get the full impact.


Dear lady, I have the same version than you (Glyndebourne), because the comments were awesome and also the Peter Sellars one...(I had totally forgotten) Both are safely kept in my shelves...The later worse than the first one...real contemporary stage....I don't enjoy Haendel very much, just this opera and the marvelous Rinaldo. That would be the real reason, but I won't suggest to a beginner these kind of operas....a question of developing your taste. Please try, just try to be less hard on me.

Rather, something nice and funny:














Martin


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

Hesoos said:


> A beginner needs to fast action, short stories and help music, like L'elisir d'Amore or La Traviata.
> Giulio Cesare in Egitto is too heavy for a beginner.


I disagree with this mentality you and a few others have suggested... OP is new to opera but *not* to classical music, for all we know ningen listens to Bruckner symphonies while he brushes his teeth in the morning. They don't necessarily need to start at square one with Carmen and La Boheme, those are for weaning people off of musical theatre.


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## myaskovsky2002 (Oct 3, 2010)

Couchie said:


> I disagree with this mentality you and a few others have suggested... OP is new to opera but *not* to classical music, for all we know ningen listens to Bruckner symphonies while he brushes his teeth in the morning. They don't necessarily need to start at square one with Carmen and La Boheme, those are for weaning people off of musical theatre.


A very good observation... But human voice is (IMHO) a whole new experience. It Is like becoming a beginner again. You need to develop the taste for it.

Bes regards,

Martin

Martin


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

myaskovsky2002 said:


> A very good observation... But human voice is (IMHO) a whole new experience. It Is like becoming a beginner again. You need to develop the taste for it.
> 
> Bes regards,
> 
> ...


My experience was that the operatic technique did nothing for me one day, then *clicked* another day. OP seems to relate the same.

I'd say it's much harder for opera-exclusive listeners to get into instrumental music than for instrumental listeners to get into opera. The former loses the stabilizing plot and dramatic elements while the latter gains them.


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## trazom (Apr 13, 2009)

Couchie said:


> The philosophy of an opera should not supplant the drama. See Wagner.


In Don Giovanni, it doesn't, which is why it has remained one of the most popular operas among opera lovers and casual listeners. See Reality.


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## sospiro (Apr 3, 2010)

mamascarlatti said:


> I have been posting on this site for several years and have had many conversations on the subject of this particular DVD. Most other people on this site, and everywhere else I have read reviews of this, are universally admiring and in praise of this great production.
> 
> It was picked out by 11 out of 12 voters in TC's most recommended DVDs of Giulio Cesare.
> 
> ...


There are certain members of TC without whom my love of opera would not have developed into the life-enhancing passion it is today. I'm not going to name names but Alan & Gaston are definitely two members I have to thank. They constantly encouraged me with their comments and reviews and our Top 100 list was great fun & delightful to do.

I've had this DVD for ages but to my shame I _still_ haven't watched it but this has been a useful nudge & I'll dust off my copy this weekend & watch.


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## myaskovsky2002 (Oct 3, 2010)

Couchie said:


> My experience was that the operatic technique did nothing for me one day, then *clicked* another day. OP seems to relate the same.
> 
> I'd say it's much harder for opera-exclusive listeners to get into instrumental music than for instrumental listeners to get into opera. The former loses the stabilizing plot and dramatic elements while the latter gains them.


Sorry pal, I started with just orchestral music when I was 6. I started with oper when I was a teenager.

Martin


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## myaskovsky2002 (Oct 3, 2010)

sospiro said:


> There are certain members of TC without whom my love of opera would not have developed into the life-enhancing passion it is today. I'm not going to name names but Alan & Gaston are definitely two members I have to thank. They constantly encouraged me with their comments and reviews and our Top 100 list was great fun & delightful to do.
> 
> I've had this DVD for ages but to my shame I _still_ haven't watched it but this has been a useful nudge & I'll dust off my copy this weekend & watch.


I share this shame with you, pal. I haven't seen it seriously yet...and I'm not sure I would do it soon, I have so much to listen to and to see.

Martin


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## Badinerie (May 3, 2008)

The best way to explore opera is either Recital CD's featuring arias from opera's you fancy hearing or Highlights cd's. Both can often be found cheap. Unless money is no obstacle buying an Opera unheard can be expensive and wastefull! I didnt like Opera much until I was about 24. Lp's were still on the go and classic recordings could be found at car boot and jumble sales ect. The Typical places to start are usually Puccini Verdi and Mozart. DVD's are increasingly more available nowadays and Youtube of course is a great place to sample new works as you have obviously found out.


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

trazom said:


> In Don Giovanni, it doesn't, which is why it has remained one of the most popular operas among opera lovers and casual listeners. See Reality.


It has been quite common to cut the final scene, as you well know. DO THEY CUT THE FINAL SCENE OF THE RING EVER?


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

Couchie said:


> It has been quite common to cut the final scene, as you well know. DO THEY CUT THE FINAL SCENE OF THE RING EVER?


I can understand why some one would cut the final scene of Don G but DER RING DES NIBELUNGEN?!?!

NEVER SHOULD THEY EVEN THINK OF CUTTING ANY FINAL SCENES IN _ANYTHING_ BY WAGNER!!!!!!


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## myaskovsky2002 (Oct 3, 2010)

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> I can understand why some one would cut the final scene of Don G but DER RING DES NIBELUNGEN?!?!
> 
> NEVER SHOULD THEY EVEN THINK OF CUTTING ANY FINAL SCENES IN _ANYTHING_ BY WAGNER!!!!!!


Cutting the final scene of Madama Butterfly could be a good idea... Let's give a Happy ending...See the thread about changing finales... LOL

Martin


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## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

Just going back to Don Giovanni - the final ensemble is a fabulous piece of music - and really rounds off the opera however you want to read it.


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## myaskovsky2002 (Oct 3, 2010)

Personally, I would not suggest ARIAS. An opera is a whole thing, either you like it or not. Just start with simpler stuff. I recommended Daniel Auber, it is a very light music, plenty of energy, dynamic...not very complicated. Speaking about complicated. I have just received _La Finta Giardiniera_ (DVD), the story is extremely complicated with all these people! The music...is not awesome, it is the very first time I listen to it and watch it seriously....Not very happy when I compare to the Da Ponte trilogy( awesome)...Not very mature. Not every Mozart opera is a master piece....

Martin, daydreaming


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## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

myaskovsky2002 said:


> Personally, I would not suggest ARIAS. An opera is a whole thing, either you like it or not. Just start with simpler stuff. I recommended Daniel Auber, it is a very light music, plenty of energy, dynamic...not very complicated. Speaking about complicated. I have just received _La Finta Giardiniera_ (DVD), the story is extremely complicated with all these people! The music...is not awesome, it is the very first time I listen to it and watch it seriously....Not very happy when I compare to the Da Ponte trilogy( awesome)...Not very mature. Not every Mozart opera is a master piece....
> 
> Martin, daydreaming


Yes I agree - the early operas are not MOZART - just a promising young composer. Though there are flashes here and there.
I just listened to Mackerras conducting some early Mozart symphonies (11-16) - some good music - but I doubt if I will revisit those works.


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## myaskovsky2002 (Oct 3, 2010)

stomanek said:


> Yes I agree - the early operas are not MOZART - just a promising young composer. Though there are flashes here and there.
> I just listened to Mackerras conducting some early Mozart symphonies (11-16) - some good music - but I doubt if I will revisit those works.


In my very PERSONAL opinion, operas seem more difficult to compose than a symphony.

Mozart's early symphonies are short;
Operas are generally longer and demand more consistency. Mozart is an exception. He was an excellent symphonist and he composed wonderful operas as well. Wagner, Puccini, Verdi, Rimsky-Korsakov were mainly opera composers. Beethoven, Brahms, Mahler mainly symphonies. The only more contemporary composer I could compare with Mozart, it was the prodigal Sergei Prokofiev, he composed 7 fantastic symphonies, wonderful chamber music, awesome concertos and some breathtaking operas. I could also add the versatile Zemlinsky, Schreker and Dvorak.

Mozart and Prokofiev were two "enfants terribles"! They had many things in common!

Martin


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## myaskovsky2002 (Oct 3, 2010)

Apparently, nobody wants to answer you, Martin...I'm always your friend! I like the late Mozart...The one of the early operas is not that good.
I believe you are better with Russian music IMHO...

Nikolai Myaskovsky


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## StlukesguildOhio (Dec 25, 2006)

Mozart is an exception. He was an excellent symphonist and he composed wonderful operas as well. Wagner, Puccini, Verdi, Rimsky-Korsakov were mainly opera composers. Beethoven, Brahms, Mahler mainly symphonies. The only more contemporary composer I could compare with Mozart, it was the prodigal Sergei Prokofiev, he composed 7 fantastic symphonies, wonderful chamber music, awesome concertos and some breathtaking operas. I could also add the versatile Zemlinsky, Schreker and Dvorak.

Mozart and Prokofiev were two "enfants terribles"! They had many things in common!

What of Richard Strauss? He was a magnificent symphonic composer... even though his symphonic works took the form primarily of tone poems as opposed to the traditional symphony. He was also perhaps the last great composer of songs in the tradition of German lieder. But then he was also a great composer of opera.

And what of Rimsky-Korsakov? I haven't really listened to his symphonies, although his symphonic suites and tone poems suggest that he quite likely was a masterful symphonic composer... as well as a great composer of opera.

Beyond that? Well it all comes down to taste... but I might suggest Benjamin Britten and Philip Glass.


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

StlukesguildOhio said:


> Beyond that? Well it all comes down to taste... but I might suggest Benjamin Britten and Philip Glass.


Britten especially. In my opinion he is the best composer to start with when it comes to opera. The best composer of operas is Wagner though.


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## Bardamu (Dec 12, 2011)

myaskovsky2002 said:


> Apparently, nobody wants to answer you, Martin...I'm always your friend! I like the late Mozart...The one of the early operas is not that good.
> I believe you are better with Russian music IMHO...
> 
> Nikolai Myaskovsky


Speaking of russian music, for a beginner of russian opera that fell in love with Eugene Onegin what would you suggest ?



myaskovsky2002 said:


> Personally, I would not suggest ARIAS. An opera is a whole thing, either you like it or not. Just start with simpler stuff.
> Martin, daydreaming


Totally agree with daydreaming Martino.


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## myaskovsky2002 (Oct 3, 2010)

StlukesguildOhio said:


> Mozart is an exception. He was an excellent symphonist and he composed wonderful operas as well. Wagner, Puccini, Verdi, Rimsky-Korsakov were mainly opera composers. Beethoven, Brahms, Mahler mainly symphonies. The only more contemporary composer I could compare with Mozart, it was the prodigal Sergei Prokofiev, he composed 7 fantastic symphonies, wonderful chamber music, awesome concertos and some breathtaking operas. I could also add the versatile Zemlinsky, Schreker and Dvorak.
> 
> About Richard Strauss, you are perfectli right. Knowing very well all R-K's works, I can tell his three symphonies, his Scheherazade and his few symphonic poems are wonderful, but his operas are much much better. I think he was a magician in his operas.
> 
> ...


About Richard Strauss, you are perfectly right. Knowing very well all R-K's works, I can tell his three symphonies, his Scheherazade and his few symphonic poems are wonderful, but his operas are much much better. I think he was a magician in his operas. Speaking about Britten, I can accept him... About Glass, he's a clown. His repetitions make me nervous.


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## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

Bardamu said:


> Speaking of russian music, for a beginner of russian opera that fell in love with Eugene Onegin what would you suggest ?
> 
> Sorry for sticking my oar in but if you like Eugene Onegin then I don't think you could go far wrong with Boris Godunov, Prince Igor or The Tsar's Bride.


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## myaskovsky2002 (Oct 3, 2010)

elgars ghost said:


> Bardamu said:
> 
> 
> > Speaking of russian music, for a beginner of russian opera that fell in love with Eugene Onegin what would you suggest ?
> ...


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## myaskovsky2002 (Oct 3, 2010)

Oh God! Extasy!


















and the story is so nice. La fille du roi René (The daughter of King Rene) is a beautiful but blind girl, she doesn't know she can't see, because her father always had hidden the fact she was blind, then she thinks nobody can see. But a prince meets her and asks her to give him a rose, a red rose...What is red, she asks? Then the prince knows she is blind, he tells her and she becomes so sad that she cries for hours...until she can see! A beautiful and naive story, a love one.

Enjoy ou urgently buy this opera!









Martin, Russky


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## myaskovsky2002 (Oct 3, 2010)

Nice, Martin...I'm a bit jealous I'd never composed an opera.  I think I'd never had the talent to do so.

Nikolai (Myaskovsky of course)


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## Xavier (Jun 7, 2012)

*"Which opera would you recommend to a beginner?"*

In all seriousness my first choice would be Pfitzner's _Palestrina_










And Verdi's Falstaff a very close second:










Regards.


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

In my opinion, the first opera that _anyone_ should see is Britten's "Albert Herring."

Here's a short introduction to it:






I saw their production of the opera last year.


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## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

Norma, Norma, Norma!!!

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51+axCTX42L._AA160_.jpg

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51bQWMpA4UL._AA160_.jpg

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51MN1H63KBL._AA160_.jpg


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## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

well, dang it.


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## sospiro (Apr 3, 2010)

guythegreg said:


> Norma, Norma, Norma!!!
> 
> http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51+axCTX42L._AA160_.jpg
> 
> ...


Nooooooooooooo!!

This could be the start of the _Bellini Wars of 2012_


















One of the most beautiful bass arias, evvah!!!!!!!


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## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

I love I Puritani, but the only version I have is the Sutherland/Pavarotti. Just the ethereal sound of her voice from offstage, in the opening hymn - chills!! Oooh! Spose I should poke around and see what I've been missing, in other versions ... but tell me this, purely as a mechanical question: how do you get the picture of the link instead of the link? Is there some hypertext I should use?


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## sospiro (Apr 3, 2010)

guythegreg said:


> I love I Puritani, but the only version I have is the Sutherland/Pavarotti. Just the ethereal sound of her voice from offstage, in the opening hymn - chills!! Oooh! Spose I should poke around and see what I've been missing, in other versions ... but tell me this, purely as a mechanical question: how do you get the picture of the link instead of the link? Is there some hypertext I should use?


Before I explain, what browser are you using? IE, Firefox or Chrome?


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## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

I am using Chrome.


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## sospiro (Apr 3, 2010)

guythegreg said:


> I am using Chrome.


Okey

Find a photo on the internet and right click on the photo & you get a menu

Left click 'copy image url'

return to where you want to post your picture (e.g on this site)

You can use the little photo of a tree icon above but what I find easiest is to type


















If you quote my post you can see the url between the


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## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

Oh I see. Thanks so much! I'll just save that model and use it later.


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## Ravndal (Jun 8, 2012)

My first opera was 'La Boheme' by Puccini, and i would not recommend that one. I understood very little. I would recommend seeing 'The Magic Flute' by Mozart.


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## myaskovsky2002 (Oct 3, 2010)

Ravndal said:


> My first opera was 'La Boheme' by Puccini, and i would not recommend that one. I understood very little. I would recommend seeing 'The Magic Flute' by Mozart.


Both are nice. La Bohème was written by Danielle Steel (the only occasion she didn't put a happy ending, but the story is still stupid) then is simple, because she is dumb. Lol. The magic flute is longer, you have less tragedy, wonderful story, for smarter people, not for dummies as La Bohème. La Bohème was my first opera too. I was 6. I liked it. I think it is a good start. The story is pretty simple, very Puccini, with a woman as a victim (i suppose you know the story of his maid, Doria Manfredi). La povera Mimi...Me chiamano Mimi... 
Martin


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## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

Ravndal said:


> My first opera was 'La Boheme' by Puccini, and i would not recommend that one. I understood very little. I would recommend seeing 'The Magic Flute' by Mozart.


You found Magic Flute more understandable than La Boheme? Now I know I'm nuts ... that makes absolutely no sense. Who can understand Magic Flute? I don't even understand it now. (I mean, I have high standards for "understanding," too ... you have to be able to explain it to an 8-year-old.)


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## Vesteralen (Jul 14, 2011)

http://pbskids.org/video/?category=Mister%20Rogers'%20Neighborhood&pid=gRcbQGEXUKoxTz4vC_bgyTbocZ5q1YDe

Good opera for a beginner.


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## myaskovsky2002 (Oct 3, 2010)

I Puritani is for me far from the brilliance of Norma. I puritani is confusing, the arias are less interesting. For me Bellini's best are Norma and Romeo and Juliette (Montesco and Cappuleto). Il Pirata and I Puritani (if I remember well the sad and boring story of Oliver Cromwell) are less brilliant. I would never suggest I puritani to a beginner...it is like telling him, pal, opera is boring.

Martin, bored


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## myaskovsky2002 (Oct 3, 2010)

Vesteralen said:


> http://pbskids.org/video/?category=Mister%20Rogers'%20Neighborhood&pid=gRcbQGEXUKoxTz4vC_bgyTbocZ5q1YDe
> 
> Good opera for a beginner.


I saw your link.... Or it is a mistake or you are joking.

Martin


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## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

have you ever seen the Moffo video of Sonnambula? In some ways it's kind of stupid - the scenery was made of cardboard, the extras clearly had no idea what a "camera" was, and Anna Moffo simpers wholeheartedly through the whole thing - I mean really, simpering as an Olympic event - but her singing is gorgeous, her voice was absolutely at its prime, Danilo Vega is as thrilling an Elvin as you'd want to see, and for dessert, Plinio Clabassi as The Stranger - it just can't be beat, for watching or listening. I haven't explored I Puritani much, but Sonnambula is Bellini's #2 best opera.


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## myaskovsky2002 (Oct 3, 2010)

guythegreg said:


> You found Magic Flute more understandable than La Boheme? Now I know I'm nuts ... that makes absolutely no sense. Who can understand Magic Flute? I don't even understand it now. (I mean, I have high standards for "understanding," too ... you have to be able to explain it to an 8-year-old.)


La Bohème is the easiest opera i know, this and madama Cucaracha (butterfly) are easy, dramatic, stupid.... Kind of "bring a whole box of Klenex" type. I don't cry, I laugh. Both women are stupid, both men are jerks. Music is beautiful though.


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## Ravndal (Jun 8, 2012)

guythegreg said:


> You found Magic Flute more understandable than La Boheme? Now I know I'm nuts ... that makes absolutely no sense. Who can understand Magic Flute? I don't even understand it now. (I mean, I have high standards for "understanding," too ... you have to be able to explain it to an 8-year-old.)





myaskovsky2002 said:


> Both are nice. La Bohème was written by Danielle Steel (the only occasion she didn't put a happy ending, but the story is still stupid) then is simple, because she is dumb. Lol. The magic flute is longer, you have less tragedy, wonderful story, for smarter people, not for dummies as La Bohème. La Bohème was my first opera too. I was 6. I liked it. I think it is a good start. The story is pretty simple, very Puccini, with a woman as a victim (i suppose you know the story of his maid, Doria Manfredi). La povera Mimi...Me chiamano Mimi... I am a wh¥£#e The guy just want to f%##k me.
> 
> Martin


Well. The version i saw of La Boheme, was a "Modern twist". I understood what the main story was about, but so many random things happened, and i remember i scratched my head so many times during that opera. At the end, i was wondering wtf did i just watch.






maybe i got everything wrong though. Overthinking it, perhaps...


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## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

myaskovsky2002 said:


> Both are nice. La Bohème was written by Danielle Steel (the only occasion she didn't put a happy ending, but the story is still stupid) then is simple, because she is dumb. Lol. The magic flute is longer, you have less tragedy, wonderful story, for smarter people, not for dummies as La Bohème. La Bohème was my first opera too. I was 6. I liked it. I think it is a good start. The story is pretty simple, very Puccini, with a woman as a victim (i suppose you know the story of his maid, Doria Manfredi). La povera Mimi...Me chiamano Mimi... I am a wh¥£#e The guy just want to f%##k me.
> 
> Martin


too funny - danielle Steele, indeed! lol honestly though, if you just see a good traditional performance of La Boheme, there should always be newlyweds in the audience. It's TOO romantic.


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## myaskovsky2002 (Oct 3, 2010)

guythegreg said:


> too funny - danielle Steele, indeed! lol honestly though, if you just see a good traditional performance of La Boheme, there should always be newlyweds in the audience. It's TOO romantic.


It is nice... I agree, but is perfect for a beginner. The story is simple... The special effects didn't exist by then... They were replaced by TEARS!!!!!! Larmoyant opera. I think I saw this opera about 7 times, usually in order to initiate a friend. The arias are catchy. Puccini was the creator of a unique technique: the voice and the orchestra play the same melody. People like this technique.... So do I sometimes...
I love especially the aria of Rodolfo..."che gelida manina" , just before Mimi speaks about herself "Me chiamano Mimi". This two arias are beautifully written.

Notice his technique, the voice and the orchestra play the same music. Tipically Puccini. This is a whole new technique I have never seen before.

I have two versions on CD: Renata Tebaldi (this CD replaces the LP my mother gave me when I was 8) and a version sung in Russian that sounds awesome. On DVD I have Pavarotti and I had the new version sung by Anna Netrebko, corny, awful, I gave it to a friend.






Roberto Alagna is awesome.

Martin


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## Vesteralen (Jul 14, 2011)

myaskovsky2002 said:


> I saw your link.... Or it is a mistake or *you are joking.*
> 
> Martin


Got it in two!


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## myaskovsky2002 (Oct 3, 2010)

Ravndal said:


> Well. The version i saw of La Boheme, was a "Modern twist". I understood what the main story was about, but so many random things happened, and i remember i scratched my head so many times during that opera. At the end, i was wondering wtf did i just watch.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I think you are right, this version is completely out of the blue! Did she have cancer? With Radiotherapy? Kind of... weird...Too "modern" for me. I think to appreciate La Bohème you should keep it in the IXXth century. Of course, this is just my humble opinion. Values are not the same. Nowadays if the girl choses to go with another guy for a while is not a sin any more.
This *is* a IXXth century story.

Martin


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## Bardamu (Dec 12, 2011)

myaskovsky2002 said:


> elgars ghost said:
> 
> 
> > I am absolutely in love, passionately in love with Onieguin, I would feel guilty and extremely subjective suggesting Onieguin. For a beginner.... I think you have to acquire the Russian soul. I read many many Russian books before listening to Onieguin, furthermore, I saw the opera 5 times before buying the LP! And after the CDS (4 versions) and the DVDs (3 versions) as you can see in my musical collection at www3.bell.net/svp1. About Boris... No, it is a difficult opera, Igor, easier, nice arias (not as deep as Boris). Tsarskaya neviesta (the tsar's bride...would be a big mistake), it is a difficult opera.... Better would be the story of tsar Saltan, a nice fairy tale, nice!
> ...


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## myaskovsky2002 (Oct 3, 2010)

http://www.amazon.com/Nicolai-Rimsky-Korsakov-The-Tsars-Bride/dp/B001C47ZX8/ref=sr_1_1?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1340375205&sr=1-1&keywords=tsar%27s+bride+Rimsky


Bardamu said:


> myaskovsky2002 said:
> 
> 
> > Acquiring the Russian soul seems quite hardcore and time consuming
> ...


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## myaskovsky2002 (Oct 3, 2010)

Bardamu said:


> myaskovsky2002 said:
> 
> 
> > Acquiring the Russian soul seems quite hardcore and time consuming
> ...


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## azyuwish (Jun 22, 2012)

I am brand new to this forum. I have been a Puccini fan since I first heard his arias in "A Room With a View". I was so inspired that I went to Florence and rented a penthouse in a hotel over the Arno. I adore Puccini. The other day, I was on youTube and never having heard Wagner before, I clicked on......a rendition of "Liebestod" by Kirsten Flagstod. I was absolutely STUNNED. I felt as if my heart had exploded. I listened to it again and again, by other, Nillson, Callas, Stemme, but for me Flagstod is a GODDESS. I now dream of Liebestod....I hear her singing it in my dreams. Last night I went to sleep listening to Tristan and Isolde conducted by Beecham with Melchior and Flatstod and....I am now beginning, BEGINNING to understand the depth of Wagner. For me now, I would say that all of my years as a Puccini lover and Verdi appreciator have given me the epitome of musical listening pleasure, but Wagner is giving me a spiritual experience. He is on a whole different level. I am not saying better.....I am saying different. I do recommend these videos, but please listen to 1936 Kirsten Flagstod's Liebestod, Covent Garden conducted by Reiner.









[/QUOTE]


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

azyuwish said:


> For me now, I would say that all of my years as a Puccini lover and Verdi appreciator have given me the epitome of musical listening pleasure, but Wagner is giving me a spiritual experience. He is on a whole different level. I am not saying better.....I am saying different. I do recommend these videos, but please listen to 1936 Kirsten Flagstod's Liebestod, Covent Garden conducted by Reiner.


I feel the same way.... very few other composers have tried to deliver works of a scale equal to Wagner's and none with the emotional, philosophical, and musical breadth of Wagner.... he is simply in another league.


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## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

azyuwish said:


> I was so inspired that I went to Florence and rented a penthouse in a hotel over the Arno.


What a great story!! That's just my attitude about life ... you see something you like, grab it with both hands! I'm a little sad myself, with so many Wagnerliebhabers here I feel like a kid trying to see out a steamed up window, but I'll try the Flagstad, who knows. Maybe it'll be my breakthrough Wagner moment!


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## sospiro (Apr 3, 2010)

azyuwish said:


> I have been a Puccini fan since I first heard his arias in "A Room With a View". I was so inspired that I went to Florence and rented a penthouse in a hotel over the Arno.


I love that! And can understand it.

After the opera film Rigoletto a Mantova was broadcast










I went to Mantova & visited some of the locations. My avatar was the sign outside the 'house' where the statue of Rigoletto is on here. The face of the jester is very sad & the statue is very poignant.


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## powerbooks (Jun 30, 2012)

During my stint in two different companies for the past decade, I gathered two groups of colleagues who had never been to an opera before and went to the Met for their first opera experience. The first one is Le Boheme, with red eyes from quite a few ladies afterwards. Some of them became opera fans ever since!

The second time I chose Figaro, and the reaction was almost as memorable as the Boheme, especially when they realized the duet from the movie The Shawshank Redemption, but more of them were excited about the story line which is magnificent!


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## sospiro (Apr 3, 2010)

I don't think there can be a 'right' or 'wrong' opera to start with.

A friend of mine who knew absolutely nothing about opera, was channel hopping one day, and found this on an Arts channel










She watched in delight & couldn't believe that this was opera. Since then she has become an enthusiastic and knowledgeable fan.


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

myaskovsky2002 said:


> But be careful about the version of Tsarskaya Nevesta (Tsar's bride). *Avoid Gergiev*, buy the older one with Galina Vizhnestkaya, this makes a big difference.
> 
> Martin


I love the Gergiev version, one of my favourite CDs.


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## powerbooks (Jun 30, 2012)

myaskovsky2002 said:


> I saw your link.... Or it is a mistake or you are joking.
> 
> Martin


This clip actually brings up one question I have been search for answer for a long time:

About 15 years ago (1997?), I was watching PBS (Boston, MA) TV station "Great Performance" for an opera (I think it was T&I, but not certain now). Just before the show started, the PBS station put up a very short cartoon clip called: "What is an opera?"

In it, a female voice described couple operas in very brief and weird terms, such as: "In Tosca, someone killed someone, and then committed suicide, etc, and In summary: one murder, one torture, one betray, one suicide". and "In Carmen, one murder, one revenge, one seduction, etc.". "In Tristan, one poison, two suicides, one betrayal, etc." After more than half operas, all with cartoon representations, the final conclusion was: So in opera, there were six murders, eight tortures, five jealousy, ten suicides, etc...... That is opera! Oh, by the way, there are also music, lots of them......

I thought it was a very funny introduction of opera: full of passions of human beings!

I would love to find the cartoon clip again. Still searching.......


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## myaskovsky2002 (Oct 3, 2010)

In Tristan, one poison, two suicides, one betrayal, etc." he? poison? 2 suicides? Tristan?


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## powerbooks (Jun 30, 2012)

myaskovsky2002 said:


> In Tristan, one poison, two suicides, one betrayal, etc." he? poison? 2 suicides? Tristan?


I forgot the details. Adultery may also have been mentioned for Tristan......

I wish I can find the video clip somewhere on the internet too share, still no luck yet 

But, I keep my faith!

Just like I have been looking for the name of an old movie about a talent journalist, with last quote as "the son of bitch stole my watch!" After more than a decade, I eventually found it!


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## myaskovsky2002 (Oct 3, 2010)

Moises und Aaron would be a perfect choice for a beginner. LOL

Martin


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## myaskovsky2002 (Oct 3, 2010)

powerbooks said:


> I forgot the details. Adultery may also have been mentioned for Tristan......


Adultery? Could you be more specific?

Martin


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## Aksel (Dec 3, 2010)

Ravndal said:


> Well. The version i saw of La Boheme, was a "Modern twist". I understood what the main story was about, but so many random things happened, and i remember i scratched my head so many times during that opera. At the end, i was wondering wtf did i just watch.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I saw this as well, both in-house and on the TV machine, and I absolutely loved it. Generally, I thought the production worked really well.


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## dionisio (Jul 30, 2012)

I always advise someone to listen to La Boheme first. Specially my collegues from College. The plot is easily identified by almost every student. It has everyting one desires when it comes to see a opera (for the first time). Altough terribly challenging for the orchestra (in the second act, i guess), this opera is about common people. No great debates, no magical wonders, no nobles/gods, epics, killer dramas or silly plots. 

The first time i heard it i recnognized almost every scene with moments in my life (except for the finale, thank God). 

I went on discovering other operas through time, but this one remained always close to my heart (and i rarely listen to it nowadays).

The magicflute or La traviatta are my other advices.


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## quack (Oct 13, 2011)

powerbooks said:


> I would love to find the cartoon clip again. Still searching.......


This one?






It all just seemed like pretty singing before, but now I suddenly understand it all! (although I still don't understand the ring of the nibelungs)


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## Aksel (Dec 3, 2010)

quack said:


> It all just seemed like pretty singing before, but now I suddenly understand it all! (although I still don't understand the ring of the nibelungs)


Don't worry. Nobody really does.

But to be fair, the Ring's nothing compared to some Baroque operas.


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## Ravndal (Jun 8, 2012)

Aksel said:


> I saw this as well, both in-house and on the TV machine, and I absolutely loved it. Generally, I thought the production worked really well.


Yeah, many did. I just.. Didn't get it. It wasnt a 100% modern twist either. The only thing that was modern, was the hospital and the cancer bit. But the rest was late 19th century. I just thought it was derp. Why not just keep it 19th century, and call it tuberculosis.


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## Aksel (Dec 3, 2010)

Ravndal said:


> Yeah, many did. I just.. Didn't get it. It wasnt a 100% modern twist either. The only thing that was modern, was the hospital and the cancer bit. But the rest was late 19th century. I just thought it was derp. Why not just keep it 19th century, and call it tuberculosis.


I don't really see why people are going on about this tuberculosis stuff. The disease is never even mentioned in the libretto!

But the mixing of the time periods, using the 19th century setting as the romantic fantasy Rodolfo hides in when his girlfriend dies was really rather amazing.


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## Morgante (Jul 26, 2012)

_Le nozze di Figaro_ (Mozart) and _Il barbiere di Siviglia_ (Rossini).


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## Barelytenor (Nov 19, 2011)

Getting back to the OP's question, it sounds like ningen is looking for some operas that are melodically accessible. Whatever that means, and some humor or fantasy would be appealing as well. To me, Rossini's La _Cenerentola_ and _Barbiere di Siviglia_ both fall into that category. And the recitatives, when they are performed, fly by quickly.

Sorry Couchie but I gotta say, Dr. Bailey managed to spoil _Dristan und Isolde_ for me, pretty much forever (well, 45 years and counting). Nothing like having to listen to five hours of it, over and over and over, until you can pass a "drop the needle" final exam (this was back in the days of LPs), to the point that you can identify any 10-second segment and discuss it musically and dramatically, to make me, well, not despise it, since I recognize that it is great music, but I avoid it, since there is _lot of other great music out there too._


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## sospiro (Apr 3, 2010)

Barelytenor said:


> Getting back to the OP's question, it sounds like ningen is looking for some operas that are melodically accessible. Whatever that means, and some humor or fantasy would be appealing as well. To me, Rossini's La _Cenerentola_ and _Barbiere di Siviglia_ both fall into that category. And the recitatives, when they are performed, fly by quickly.


OP never came back which is a shame as there are some really interesting replies. I would add Bellini to my suggestions - especially _I Puritani_.



Barelytenor said:


> Sorry Couchie but I gotta say, Dr. Bailey managed to spoil _Dristan und Isolde_ for me, pretty much forever (well, 45 years and counting). Nothing like having to listen to five hours of it, over and over and over, until you can pass a "drop the needle" final exam (this was back in the days of LPs), to the point that you can identify any 10-second segment and discuss it musically and dramatically, to make me, well, not despise it, since I recognize that it is great music, but I avoid it, since there is _lot of other great music out there too._


:lol:


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## mchriste (Aug 16, 2013)

To an absolute beginner? Gilbert & Sullivan's The Pirates of Penzance :lol:

More seriously, I think it would depend whether it's just to "listen in" on a few arias, or watch a complete opera.

Just to "listen in", Act I of Carmen is great.
But if you make a newcomer sit through Act III their love for opera may fade just as fast again!
I should know, the only opera my brother knows is Carmen - he's sat through 3 performances and always complains that opera is good for an hour, then it gets boring 

For complete works:
Pagliacci (it's short!)
Il Barbiere di Siviglia (Fiiiigaroooo, yep I know that one!)
Rigoletto (not much recitativo to drudge through, action keeps moving, beautiful singing, a complete story)
Don Giovanni (awesome throughout plus you get the big payoff at the end)

On the other hand, Puccini and Wagner scared me away from opera for a long time when I was still young and (a bit more) stupid!


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## Hoffmann (Jun 10, 2013)

Ok. I've managed to talk my nephew in joining me for an opera during the coming season (he's 23). I figured that there might be some interest since after attending a performance of _Messiah_ last December, he was able to tell me about the countertenor's timing, along with some other specific things he liked and didn't like about the performance. He's a very bright kid with a sense for adventure and curiosity, so it might be a good fit.

My problem is that the operas being offered locally this season (2013-2014) aren't particularly good places to start, in my opinion:

_Tristan und Isolde
La Forza del Destino
Moby Dick
L'Elisir d'Amore
Magic Flute_

Only Tristan and Forza are offered this fall, the others in the spring with Magic Flute not scheduled until May. I figure I've got to strike while he still has some interest, meaning this fall. If I wait until spring, he will have forgotten all about it - and the idea will then be an obligation he may not want to keep.

What to do?


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## sospiro (Apr 3, 2010)

Hoffmann said:


> Ok. I've managed to talk my nephew in joining me for an opera during the coming season (he's 23). I figured that there might be some interest since after attending a performance of _Messiah_ last December, he was able to tell me about the countertenor's timing, along with some other specific things he liked and didn't like about the performance. He's a very bright kid with a sense for adventure and curiosity, so it might be a good fit.
> 
> My problem is that the operas being offered locally this season (2013-2014) aren't particularly good places to start, in my opinion:
> 
> ...


Perhaps you could explain your dilemma to him? Can't comment on the Wagner & although I love Forza, I accept it's a bit long & long-winded!
Any recitals coming up?
Could you perhaps look further afield & find something more digestible for a beginner?

But then why not jump into the deep end & go for Tristan. You never know which opera will bite your ankles & capture your heart.


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

I fell in love with Tristan at age 23 and I'm not particularly bright. Does he listen to instrumental classical music?


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## deggial (Jan 20, 2013)

Hoffmann said:


> My problem is that the operas being offered locally this season (2013-2014) aren't particularly good places to start, in my opinion:
> 
> _Tristan und Isolde
> La Forza del Destino
> ...


Elisir is a great introductory one I'd say (unless that's not until May like the Flute). But why not have him watch a DVD with you in the meanwhile? you must own a good lure in your collection. If he coped with the countertenor that's good news, so maybe more Handel?


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## mountmccabe (May 1, 2013)

Opera Lafayette has a production of Cosi fan tutte at the Kennedy Center in mid-October if that is more to your taste.

Personally I would be very interested in Moby-Dick (and am, I might be taking the train out for this) showing that there is new, exciting opera (if you agree that this is one). And I think that the Wagner or Verdi would be spectacular, too; a first opera doesn't have to be perfect or all-encompassing. Again, one thing that really grabbed me was when I saw some of the range of the form.


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## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

Of those listed, the Flute is the novice-friendly one. My intro, except for bits on AM radio, was a 'concert' version of La Traviata; that was a winner.


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## Blancrocher (Jul 6, 2013)

Hoffmann said:


> _Tristan und Isolde
> La Forza del Destino
> Moby Dick
> L'Elisir d'Amore
> Magic Flute_


Personally, I think any of these could be a great introduction in a good performance--and, better still, they're the sort of works that could whet the appetite for something better. I'd let the most convenient date be your guide. If he's not _obliged_ to like whatever you choose on your account you could also have interesting and honest conversations about the performance! This is just my opinion, of course: I hope in any event that things go well!

(I should, however, admit that I fell in love with opera at first sight during a performance of Eugene Onegin.)


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## JayL (Aug 28, 2013)

ningen said:


> Until one day, about a month ago I became suddenly fascinated with Queen of the Night's "Der Holle Rache" aria from Die Zauberflote.


I started not long ago right where you are with the exact same aria. Due to this, I feel our common starting point allows me to echo a few suggestions that have been made on this thread.

1. Rossini - The Barber of Seville - Just a fun opera, I watched the rather zany 2007 Met performance and enjoyed every hour. I think it is a great place to get used to "watching" as opposed to just listening to opera. If not the Barber then try La Cenerentola by Rossini.

2. Donizetti - L'eliser d'amore - Also very fun and light. I think it can be one of the funniest operas to watch.

3. Monteverdi - Orfeo - It serious and full of foreboding music. I love Charon's part in this. The reason I suggest is because it was one of the first operas I listened to in full after The Magic Flute and I really enjoyed it (More than I enjoyed Flute as a whole).

All the above can be found on youtube with a variety of performances to choose from.

Overall, my only advice would be to try to watch operas and not just listen to them. Preferably with subtitles


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## Winterreisender (Jul 13, 2013)

The first opera I ever listened to was Das Rheingold and it definitely worked for me; it's still one of my favourites.


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## Hoffmann (Jun 10, 2013)

Thanks everyone - all good ideas. I like the idea that Tristan may not be a bad place to start. He is fidgety, though, and gets separation anxiety if he can't look at his phone every 3 seconds. 

I like the idea of giving him some background on each of the operas and letting him make the choice. Tristan just might appeal because it has some intellectual heft and probably is the biggest challenge. I would love it if it captures his imagination! 

I just looked, and the Lyric Opera Baltimore will be staging Tosca in November. I'll add that to the mix, but am really interested to see what he does. I won' t see him until after the weekend, so stay tuned.


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## sospiro (Apr 3, 2010)

Hoffmann said:


> Thanks everyone - all good ideas. I like the idea that Tristan may not be a bad place to start. He is fidgety, though, and gets separation anxiety if he can't look at his phone every 3 seconds.


Haha!



Hoffmann said:


> I like the idea of giving him some background on each of the operas and letting him make the choice. Tristan just might appeal because it has some intellectual heft and probably is the biggest challenge. I would love it if it captures his imagination!
> 
> I just looked, and the Lyric Opera Baltimore will be staging Tosca in November. I'll add that to the mix, but am really interested to see what he does. I won' t see him until after the weekend, so stay tuned.


Good luck! I wish I'd had an uncle like you when I was 23.


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## LouisMasterMusic (Aug 28, 2013)

For a beginner I would firstly recommend an individual CD of music from operas. This can be from any feature of opera that the person enjoys, ranging from overtures through to arias, duets, and choruses. There are plenty of compilations available in order to explore this. See what Naxos have.

If you want to make a more "brave" start, if that's the correct word, if you like passionate tragedies, start with La Boheme. Its filled with melodies that stay in the memory long after being listened to. However, if you like big spectacles, try Nabucco or Turandot (the latter I'm seeing in February at the Royal Opera House). Full of big brassy moments and dramatic vocal characterisation. If you want to start with a comedy, choose between Die Fledermaus (although it is an operetta), The Magic Flute, and The Barber Of Seville. The Magic Flute was my favourite opera before I got so interested in Nabucco and Turandot.

In all of these cases, try buying DVD's of performances, as watching will bring out the main aspects that I mentioned for each opera. Hope this helps.


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## deggial (Jan 20, 2013)

LouisMasterMusic said:


> Its filled with melodies that stay in the memory long after being listened to.


I've watched it three times and I still can't remember any tune  glib moment over, welcome to TC.


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## LouisMasterMusic (Aug 28, 2013)

Hi deggial,

Good to see that someone responded to my comment. I'm not offended in any way. Try one of the other operas I mentioned, and if you still have difficulty, call on me for help!


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## deggial (Jan 20, 2013)

I'm familiar with the operas you mentioned (saw Nabucco earlier this year at ROH) and I actually don't mind La Boheme but I honestly can't remember anything music-wise (wait, maybe Musetta's aria). I can quote Che gelinda manina but the tune never stays with me  I'm partial to Mozart, belcanto and Baroque, I think those are the most tuneful ones.


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## LouisMasterMusic (Aug 28, 2013)

Try listening to a compilation CD of opera with Che Gelida Manina included, then that might make it easier for you.


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## deggial (Jan 20, 2013)

I youtubed it right now in two interpretations and it's ok, a bit noodly.


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## Bardamu (Dec 12, 2011)

JayL said:


> 3. Monteverdi - Orfeo - It serious and full of foreboding music. I love Charon's part in this. The reason I suggest is because it was one of the first operas I listened to in full after The Magic Flute and I really enjoyed it (More than I enjoyed Flute as a whole).


I am especially fond of Respighi's version of Monteverdi's Orfeo (done when it was thought that the public of the time would hardly accept the original version):


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## starlightexp (Sep 3, 2013)

deggial said:


> Elisir is a great introductory one I'd say (unless that's not until May like the Flute). But why not have him watch a DVD with you in the meanwhile? you must own a good lure in your collection. If he coped with the countertenor that's good news, so maybe more Handel?


 L'Elisir is a great starting opera. It's got a very accessible score and it's fun. The Netrebko La Traviata is how I started got truly hooked and I've had many friends borrow it and say they 'got it' and are now at least no longer afraid of opera.


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## Bellinilover (Jul 24, 2013)

I haven't read this whole thread, so I apologize if my ideas have been expressed already. I personally believe that for a first opera you need something tautly dramatic, quite action-oriented, and not too long: something that will keep your attention throughout. Examples would be _Rigoletto_, _Tosca_, _Pagliacci_, or _La Traviata_.

*Edited to add:* I also think comic operas can be good as first operas, so that you can begin by knowing opera as a "fun" experience and dispel stereotyped notions that opera is ponderous or only about misery and death. _Il Barbiere di Siviglia _would be a fine first comic opera (it was my own first opera ).


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## Xavier (Jun 7, 2012)

My favorite beginner opera:

http://store.acousticsounds.com/images/large/XXXX__81252__03092012115036-3574.jpg


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## Amagliani (Jul 28, 2013)

*Don Giovanni:*








*Le nozze di Figaro:*


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## JayL (Aug 28, 2013)

Bardamu said:


> I am especially fond of Respighi's version of Monteverdi's Orfeo (done when it was thought that the public of the time would hardly accept the original version):


I listened to that the morning you posted that. It was quite good. Went well with coffee and surfing!


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## JCarmel (Feb 3, 2013)

I recommend you forget all thoughts of whether an opera is dramatically flawed or musically majestic & all such critical questions...& accept that these great operatic compositions have stood the test of time...& just Get Listening!

I personally would start with what I started with....The Marriage of Figaro. The characters and their human natures are all too-easily comprehended by all of us & the music is never-to-be-tired-of.....as marvellous from first hearing to the last. In fact, I am listening to it at this very moment. I received a letter from a friend in the post today & thought what I could listen-to, as I start to write my reply. So I settled upon the scene from Act 3, where Susanna and the Countess write a letter to try to ensnare the Count so as to teach him a lesson for his wayward ways. The music is just .....delicious!


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## schigolch (Jun 26, 2011)

If we think about an 'average' beginner, I think the big staples of the repertory are the safest bets.

However, when you know the beginner, it makes all the difference in the world, as opposed to a generic approach.

Recently I've had a personal experience with my own goddaughter. Knowing her (she is learning now Cinematography in college), I selected this DVD:










and it was a great success, even if the performance itself was not one of the greatest. She already knew of course Korngold as a soundtrack composer, and very quickly she also realized the many point of contacts of this opera with cinema.


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## Benny (Feb 4, 2013)

Tales of Hoffmann. Real fun.


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## gellio (Nov 7, 2013)

StlukesguildOhio said:


> Hilltroll72- I gotta go with sospiro, _The Magic Flute_ is great as a forerunner of Broadway musical comedy, but those Verdi works are a step beyond as music.
> 
> stomanek- Utter nonsense. I suggest you listen and make up your own mind.


Utter nonsense indeed! I love _La Traviata_ as much as anyone. It was the first opera I ever saw (In Zeffirelli's classic film version with Placido Domingo and Maria Stratas) and I couldn't get _Un dì, felice, eterea_ out of my head for weeks. I feel the same even now after hearing the work again. But to suggest that The Magic Flute... or any of Mozart's major operas are in any way a step beneath/behind Verdi is absolute nonsense. The only operas I'd place on the same level (let alone above) Mozart's 4 greatest operas (_Don Giovanni, Le nozze di Figaro, Cosi fan tutte_, and _The Magic Flute_) are Wagner's _Tristan und Isolde_, the _Ring Cycle_, and _Parsifal_... and it looks like I am not alone: all 4 of Mozart's greatest operas made the top twenty on Talk Classical's list of "greatest" operas:

http://www.talkclassical.com/11676-talk-classical-top-272-a.html

While according to Operabase.com the top 6 most performed operas are as follows:

1. Mozart- Die Zauberflote 
2. Mozart- Don Giovanni 
3. Verdi- La Traviata 
4. Mozart- Le nozze di Figaro 
5. Puccini- La Boheme 
6. Mozart- Cosi fan tutte

Broadway musical?:lol:[/QUOTE]

I agree 100% with everything you said. Mozart and Wagner are far and away the two single greatest composers of opera to ever live.


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## gellio (Nov 7, 2013)

stomanek said:


> Verdi did not rate Mozart as an opera composer - her referred to him as a quartet composer.


Well that was foolish of Verdi!


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## gellio (Nov 7, 2013)

Hoffmann said:


> Ok. I've managed to talk my nephew in joining me for an opera during the coming season (he's 23). I figured that there might be some interest since after attending a performance of _Messiah_ last December, he was able to tell me about the countertenor's timing, along with some other specific things he liked and didn't like about the performance. He's a very bright kid with a sense for adventure and curiosity, so it might be a good fit.
> 
> My problem is that the operas being offered locally this season (2013-2014) aren't particularly good places to start, in my opinion:
> 
> ...


Have you made a decision? No doubt Tristan and Flute are two of my favorite works. Tristan, however, may be difficult for someone who is fidgety. I'd go for L'Elisir or Flute.


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## Autumn Leaves (Jan 3, 2014)

I began with Aida in the tragic category and Le nozze di Figaro as a comic one. I would recommend that for everyone. Verdi's music and drama are perfectly clear even to an inexperienced listener, and Mozart… well, is Mozart at his best.


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## TrevBus (Jun 6, 2013)

Carmen, Rigoletto and The Barber of Seville. All 3, IMO, should get anyone new to opera a good start. Of course throw in almost all of Mozart and you are really set to learn and grow. Wagner, for me. I would hold off for a time, until one is ready to expand.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

For a rank beginner, the melodic and romantic appeal of La Boheme is hard to beat.


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