# Schubert's Violin Sonatinas, op. post. 187 (D. 384, 395, 408)



## AeolianStrains

Anyone just love these little sonatinas? They rank highly in my book, but given their year of composition (1816, well before Schubert's death), I wonder why they were never published in his lifetime. Any ideas?

This is the album I listen to (with some frequency, too!):










Any others of particular note?


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## Guest

AeolianStrains said:


> Anyone just love these little sonatinas? They rank highly in my book, but given their year of composition (1816, well before Schubert's death), I wonder why they were never published in his lifetime. Any ideas?
> 
> Any others of particular note?


Yes , very much so. On my PC, for Schubert, in the section under "Chamber Works", I have "Violin & Piano" which includes:


D 384 Sonatina for violin and piano in D major - Julia Fischer (violin), Martin Helmchen (piano)
D 384 Sonatina for violin and piano (transc. for cello) - Jean-Guihen Queyras (cello), Alexandre Tharaud (piano)
D 385 Violin Sonata 'Sonatina' in A minor - Tasmin Little (violin), Piers Lane (piano)
D 408 Violin Sonatina in G minor - Alina Ibragimova (violin), Cédric Tiberghien (piano)
D 574 Sonata for Violin and Piano in A major - Julia Fischer (violin), Martin Helmchen (piano)
D 895 Rondo Brillant for Violin and Piano in B minor - (1) Isabelle Faust (violin), Alexander Melnikov (piano), (2)Julia Fischer (violin), Martin Helmchen (piano), (3) Alina Ibragimova (violin), Cédric Tiberghien (piano)
D 934 Fantasy for Violin and Piano in C major - Isabelle Faust (violin), Alexander Melnikov (piano)

In addition to the above, there is the Sonata in A minor for Arpeggione and Piano, D 821. I have 4 versions of this excellent work.

I'm not sure of the exact reason why the publication of the Sonatinas for Violin & Piano were delayed so long after composition in 1816 until after his death. The answer is probably that these pieces were composed without specific commission, and were simply put away. So many other of his works were treated in the same way, and it's quite likely that some works were never discovered at all.

It makes one wonder how much higher Schubert's reputation in his own lifetime might have been if only the world had known about all of his works at or soon after they were actually written. By a substantial amount, I reckon, sufficient to have given LvB a lot more competition than he actually faced.


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## Mandryka

AeolianStrains said:


> Anyone just love these little sonatinas? They rank highly in my book, but given their year of composition (1816, well before Schubert's death), I wonder why they were never published in his lifetime. Any ideas?
> 
> This is the album I listen to (with some frequency, too!):
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Any others of particular note?


These things can be charming, I have a recording with Oleg Kagan and Elizabeth Leonskaja, I'm not sure if it ever made it commercially off LP but I can let you have the transfer if you PM me. It's rather nice


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## Mandryka

Partita said:


> Yes , very much so. On my PC, for Schubert, in the section under "Chamber Works", I have "Violin & Piano" which includes:
> 
> 
> D 384 Sonatina for violin and piano in D major - Julia Fischer (violin), Martin Helmchen (piano)
> D 384 Sonatina for violin and piano (transc. for cello) - Jean-Guihen Queyras (cello), Alexandre Tharaud (piano)
> D 385 Violin Sonata 'Sonatina' in A minor - Tasmin Little (violin), Piers Lane (piano)
> D 408 Violin Sonatina in G minor - Alina Ibragimova (violin), Cédric Tiberghien (piano)
> D 574 Sonata for Violin and Piano in A major - Julia Fischer (violin), Martin Helmchen (piano)
> D 895 Rondo Brillant for Violin and Piano in B minor - (1) Isabelle Faust (violin), Alexander Melnikov (piano), (2)Julia Fischer (violin), Martin Helmchen (piano), (3) Alina Ibragimova (violin), Cédric Tiberghien (piano)
> D 934 Fantasy for Violin and Piano in C major - Isabelle Faust (violin), Alexander Melnikov (piano)
> 
> In addition to the above, there is the Sonata in A minor for Arpeggione and Piano, D 821. I have 4 versions of this excellent work.
> 
> I'm not sure of the exact reason why the publication of the Sonatinas for Violin & Piano were delayed so long after composition in 1816 until after his death. The answer is probably that these pieces were composed without specific commission, and were simply put away. So many other of his works were treated in the same way, and it's quite likely that some works were never discovered at all.
> 
> It makes one wonder how much higher Schubert's reputation in his own lifetime might have been if only the world had known about all of his works at or soon after they were actually written. By a substantial amount, I reckon, sufficient to have given LvB a lot more competition than he actually faced.


The D 895 rondo is a fabulous little thing, there's a super performance on record with Gidon Kremer and Valery Afanassiev.


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## Mandryka

Partita said:


> It makes one wonder how much higher Schubert's reputation in his own lifetime might have been if only the world had known about all of his works at or soon after they were actually written. By a substantial amount, I reckon, sufficient to have given LvB a lot more competition than he actually faced.


Some performances of the big 934 fanatasy make the music sound heavy, vigorous and "Beethovenian", losing in the process a sense of longing and nostalgia that seems to me very Schubertian. Busch and Serkin are the worst offenders. It needn't be like that though and, for example, Shiokawa with Schiff is very anti-Beethovenian in its treatment, all the more valuable for it.









Having said that I think some Beethoven's violin sonatas are particularly interesting - especially the earlier ones.


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## flamencosketches

^That recording of Schiff and his wife playing the Fantasy is amazing. I have not heard any other Schubert violin/piano compositions, but given his proclivity for writing voice/piano music, I'm definitely curious to hear more..


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## jegreenwood

I don't own any recordings, but when I studied the clarinet, I worked on transcriptions of one of the Sonatinas (music is currently in storage, so I don't know which one) and the Arpeggione. I got great enjoyment from them.


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## Littlephrase

I love basically all of Schubert’s chamber music, even the early efforts like the Sonatinas. The D 934 Fantasy is certainly his masterpiece for violin and piano, a work both melancholic and virtuosic. Also, don’t forget the Violin Sonata D. 574 in A Major, his final “sonata” for Violin and Piano. 

These Violin Sonatas, along with the String Trios and Quartets, make up Schubert’s pre-Trout chamber output. While these early works are far from the masterpieces he’d write later in life, they are all charming and beautiful nonetheless.


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## Guest

Littlephrase1913 said:


> I love basically all of Schubert's chamber music, even the early efforts like the Sonatinas. The D 934 Fantasy is certainly his masterpiece for violin and piano, a work both melancholic and virtuosic. Also, *don't forget the Violin Sonata D. 574* in A Major, his final "sonata" for Violin and Piano.
> 
> These Violin Sonatas, along with the String Trios and Quartets, make up Schubert's pre-Trout chamber output. While these early works are far from the masterpieces he'd write later in life, they are all charming and beautiful nonetheless.


I mentioned D 574 previously.

Some of the early string quartets are very good, and of course the string trios.

There is another pre-Trout piece that's worth a mention:

D 487 Adagio & Rondo Concertante in F for piano, violin, viola, and cello (Melos Ensemble)


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## Guest

Mandryka said:


> Some performances of the big 934 fanatasy make the music sound heavy, vigorous and "Beethovenian", losing in the process a sense of longing and nostalgia that seems to me very Schubertian. Busch and Serkin are the worst offenders. It needn't be like that though and, for example, Shiokawa with Schiff is very anti-Beethovenian in its treatment, all the more valuable for it.


I haven't heard the version of D 934 by Shiokawa with Schiff.

In total I have three versions. Of these I reckon the best is the one I mentioned previously by Isabelle Faust (violin), Alexander Melnikov (piano).

This was the the first choice recommended version on the BBC's "Building a Library" radio programme two years ago. I happened to have it already, so there was no need for me to rush out and buy it, which is what I generally do if I don't have the work in question.

Also recommended in that programme was the version by Alina Ibragimova (violin) & Cédric Tiberghien (piano), which I also happened to have. I would agree that it's very good too.

By an extreme coincidence I also had their "historic" recommendation, by Adolf Busch & The Busch Quartet. Because of its age I find the sound a bit sub-par but oherwise the playing is good.

There's nothing remotely "Beethovenian" about either of the first recordings. Both have a delicate touch.

As for the work itself, it sounds like pure Schubert to me, with no possibility of anyone else having written it. It's a magnificent work that should be high among any collector's chamber works.


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## Josquin13

(I wrote this reply yesterday, and am only now getting around to posting it. As a result, some of the performances that I've linked to have already been mentioned... so I'm now seconding those recommendations.)

AeolianStrains asks, "Any others of particular note?"

Most recently, violinist Julia Fischer & pianist Martin Helmchen have made fine recordings, on Hybrid SACD--available individually, or as part of a set of Schubert's complete works for violin and piano. Their performances are on the more restrained, classical side, & well done (& well recorded, too). The whole set can be heard on You Tube: 




https://www.amazon.com/Schubert-F-V...scher+schubert&qid=1563500833&s=dmusic&sr=1-1
https://www.amazon.com/Schubert-Com...scher+schubert&qid=1563500833&s=dmusic&sr=1-2

In addition, violinist David Grimal & pianist Valery Afanassiev have recorded the Sonatinas for Aeon, in what are for me more interesting, mercurial (even volatile) performances--although I suppose others may find them challenging, as the duo tend to be more highly expressive & emotive than Fischer/Helmchen, especially Afanassiev, who's more of an equal within the dialogue. (Btw, Afanassiev recorded the later Schubert violin works with Kremer on DG, as well):

https://outhere-music.com/en/albums/schubert-sonatinas-aecd0317/tracks?_escaped_fragment_=#!
https://www.amazon.com/Schubert-Dav...rimal+schubert&qid=1563502267&s=dmusic&sr=1-2

Among the legendary violinists of the past, quite a few of them made Sonatina recordings, more than you might expect:

--In 1963, violinist Josef Suk and pianist Jan Panenka: 









--A year later in 1964, violinist György Pauk & pianist Peter Frankl recorded the Sonatinas, as part of a complete Schubert set (which has been reissued by Brilliant). These are good performances (if a bit on the romantic side), though I prefer Suk in this music: 




--Henryk Szeryng with pianist Ingrid Haebler for Philips: I don't find Szeryng as interesting as Kremer, Suk, & others. For me, at times he can be on the drab & dull side, in comparison, despite that Haebler was a fine Schubertian (who can't save these performances, as they're so dominated by Szeryng). Nevertheless, I wouldn't call them bad performances, either: 




--Arthur Grumiaux with pianist Riccardo Castagnone:









--Arthur Grumiaux with pianist Paul Crossley on Philips: These are excellent performances of the complete Sonatinas & Grand Duo:

















--Szymon Goldberg & pianist Radu Lupu, as part of a complete set--violin-wise, these performances are a bit more romantic, but it's wonderful music making from Goldberg at the end of his career, working with the then up and coming, young Lupu: 




David Oistrakh & Adolf Busch both played Schubert's works for violin & piano, such as the Fantasia in C, D. 934, but it may just have been the late violin works, & not the Sonatinas, I'm not sure--although I do recall that Oistrakh additionally recorded the Violin Sonata in A Major, D. 574 (also called the "Grand Duo"), with pianist Frieda Bauer: 



, and with Sviatoslav Richter live in a 1968 recital in Paris: 



. I also recall that Oistrakh recorded some Schubert with pianists Paul Badura-Skoda and Vladimir Yampolski, as well, but I can't remember the details...? (possibly in a live recital with Badura-Skoda?).

David Oistrakh, Frieda Bauer--Fantasia in C, D. 934 (1969): 



Adolf Busch, Rudolf Serkin--the same: 




I agree that Busch & Serkin can, at times, sound overly late 'Romantic' in this music. Busch's occasional violin slides are certainly out of place in Schubert & can sound schmaltzy today, and we now know they aren't appropriate to the period, style-wise--despite that he's one of my favorite violinists (as is Oistrakh). For me, Oistrakh & Bauer are more imaginative at the opening, too, and I generally prefer Bauer's playing to that of the young Serkin. Nevertheless!, Serkin & Busch sound wildly gypsy-like later in the sonata, & I find that very interesting, while Oistrakh seems more content to maintain a classical veneer through these passages. But both performances are worth hearing, especially for their contrasts.

Come on, folks, these Sonatinas are heavily influenced by Beethoven, more so than by Mozart (except for arguably the 1st Sonatina).

For example, has anyone noticed that Schubert directly quotes the "Josephine" passages from Beethoven's Andante favori?

It happens in the Sonatina in A minor, Op. 137, No. 2, D. 385, Andante movement:

Schubert, Andante: 



Beethoven, Andante favori: 




My 3 cents.


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## Jokke

Manze & Egarr with the same program


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## jegreenwood

jegreenwood said:


> I don't own any recordings, but when I studied the clarinet, I worked on transcriptions of one of the Sonatinas (music is currently in storage, so I don't know which one) and the Arpeggione. I got great enjoyment from them.


Just realized I do have a recording of 137/1 arranged for violin and guitar. The album also includes an arrangement of the Arpeggione.









On the whole, however, I found this album uninspiring.


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