# What is the greatest string quintet?



## TSHare

Vote on the greatest/your favorite composition for string quintet (whether for 2 violins, 2 viola and cello or two violin, viola, and two cellos).


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## Quartetfore

Super tough question! I`m going to think about this one


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## Weston

I can't say I've heard them all. I don't even have the Beethoven Quintet in my collection and I'm not sure I've ever heard. It's one of the very few things I don't have by Beethoven.

Until I hear the Beethoven I'll go with Vaughan-Williams' Phantasy Quintet. Now, if you had said the Brahms Sextet No. 1 -- I don't think I've ever heard a more compelling bittersweet wistful siren call than the 2nd movement of that.


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## World Violist

Absolutely Schubert.


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## TSHare

I didn't expect such near unanimity behind Schubert (which I love) or I might have voted for my second favorite, the Brahms.


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## Sid James

I can't remember hearing any of them except the Schubert (surely the peak of his already magnificent chamber output?). So I'll abstain from voting. If you would've asked about say piano trios, my knowledge & familiarity would probably have been better...


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## Head_case

I like the Schubert quintet - for some reason I can't stop collecting different versions of it.

The Taneyev string quintet is also interesting for its sweeping magisterial lines. Perhaps not the most personal of idioms (that would go to Schubert) but strangely neglected for years and then recently, it has come back into modern catalogues with some excellent versions competing with the historical recordings. The Boccherini string quintet is also worth mentioning for those who aren't into the modern stuff - I'm sure many of you are familiar with the menuetto from his string quartet - it must've been played to death on so many t.v. commercials. The Beethoven string quintet takes a far more sedate rather than a jolly Boccherini approach. Even the finale of the Beethoven string quintet is rather joyous, despite its tempestuous connotations.


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## Art Rock

World Violist said:


> Absolutely Schubert.


:tiphat:

Then the unlisted Brahms1, then Brahms 2.


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## JAKE WYB

MARTINU - the czechs do string quintets best because dvorak and martinu are my favourites - martinu (ie other) gets my vote as his is the most life affirmingly wonderful. All his chamber music is brilliant - his 2nd piano quintet is also my favourite piano quintet even more than brahms.


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## Saturnus

Bartók 5, but I've only heard the Dvorak of those you listed.


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## elgar's ghost

It has to be Schubert - who can't love it? It melted the hearts even of those ******** who wore black and silver insignia on their collars and thankfully they are no longer around. Oh, Franz...


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## Taneyev

You are leaving Italians outside: Luigi Cherubini and Antonio Bazzini. Also Glazunov.


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## Sebastien Melmoth

Can't believe you left out *Bruckner*'s great F-major String Quintet.

(Although the Beethoven, Schubert, and Brahms Second are right up there...)


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## Webernite

Good point.


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## Saturnus

Saturnus said:


> Bartók 5, but I've only heard the Dvorak of those you listed.


Oh sorry, I misread the title, I thought it was Quartets! And I didnt know that Dvorak also had an "American" Quintet! If mod goes by, please delete my posts!


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## Quartetfore

I agree with the post concerning the Bruckner Quintet--its a very fine work. I find the Glazunov Quintet not at the highest level. I`m not a big "fan" of his Chamber Music. A few years ago there was a movie about the a meeting of high ranking Nazis concerning the "Final Solution" As backround music some one had left a recording of the Schubert Quintet on a recording player. During the meeting you could hear the slow movement being played (some think that it it the most beautiful movement in all of Chamber Music) how sad it sounded during the meeting.


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## jurianbai

Now I vote for Vaughan William's Phantasy quintet. Really like his style and one of my favorite composer now.

another string quintet I think worth mentioning is Carl Nielsen's string quintet in G.


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## Sebastien Melmoth

quartetfore refers to Conspiracy--the film which features the Schubert Quintet:
http://www.amazon.com/Conspiracy-Ke...ef=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=dvd&qid=1292259797&sr=1-1

Also Carrington uses it:
http://www.amazon.com/Carrington-Em...ef=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=dvd&qid=1292259880&sr=1-1

Both excellent.

Check Dvorák's American *Quintet*:

http://www.amazon.com/Old-World-Eme...=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1292259968&sr=1-1


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## teccomin

I have a feeling people were thinking of the Schubert Piano Quintet while voting for this.


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## elgar's ghost

teccomin;129258 said:


> I have a feeling people were thinking of the Schubert Piano Quintet while voting for this.


Not me, but if there was a piano quintet poll it would certainly be difficult for me to vote against it.


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## Art Rock

teccomin said:


> I have a feeling people were thinking of the Schubert Piano Quintet while voting for this.


Why? The string quintet is an acknowledged masterpiece, why on earth would you make a statement like that?


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## hocket

I'm a little disturbed that a thread like this can exist without even mentioning Boccherini -surely this should merit some form of very public punishment?

PS: Oops. I see that Head Case did mention him after all- though I don't think that the famous menuetto should obscure the more than 100 other string quintets that he wrote.


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## jurianbai

Louis Spohr's also write many String trio, quartet, quintet and sextet. sure it's worth mentioned here.


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## Einsteinian

*A word for Beethoven op. 29*

I put in a vote for the Beethoven Quintet op. 29. I had never heard of this piece until reading about it in Maynard Solomon's great biography of Beethoven, where he places it as worthy of a place with the Mozart quintets. I got a recording as part of the Zurich String Quintet set of Beethoven quintets -- he arranged two of his early works for quintet and also wrote a short, profound fugue for string quintet (op. 137) in 1817, in the early part of his late fugal obsession.

To my surprise, I find that I prefer the Beethoven op. 29 to the Mozart quintets -- this may simply reflect the peculiar effect Beethoven has always had on me, but I can't deny it. There are other great quintets as well, of course, but the little-known Beethoven quintet is worthy of consideration, and should certainly be better known that it is.

And after listening to the brief op. 137 fugue, one can only wish that Beethoven had done something more in this form in his late period -- not that one wishes he had begrudged any of his effort in the last quartets!


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## Webernite

I voted here a while ago. I'd probably change my vote to the Schubert now, or maybe the Mozart C major.


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## pjang23

Runaway for Schubert.


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## haydnfan

For me I would rank them Schubert > Brahms > Mendelssohn > Mozart. It's a shame that Mendelssohn didn't grab any votes. His string quintets are perhaps his finest work.


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## Taneyev

Cesar Franck


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## mmsbls

I managed to mistakenly vote for Mozart's K515 rather than my true choice - Mozart's K516. Schubert is a very close second.


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## tdc

I've only briefly listened to the Schubert on youtube 

Its definitely right at the top of my 'future acquisitions I must obtain' list. 

On the above list I love the two Mozart Quintets and the Brahms. I am also a huge fan of Brahms op. 88 String Quintet.


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## haydnfan

mmsbls said:


> I managed to mistakenly vote for Mozart's K515 rather than my true choice - Mozart's K516. Schubert is a very close second.


That works for me! I think that the KV 516 is a very dark, dramatic work but I actually prefer the 515, as a whole I think that it's just a bit musically more interesting.


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## robert

removed.....


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## GKC

Vote early, vote often: Schubert, Schubert, .....

And can we give our favorite recording of our favorite quintet? Prazak quartet+Marc Coppey on the Praga label.

Somebody mentioned C. Franck. Did he write a (famous) _string_ quintet?

GKC


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## robert

I cannot say which is the greatest....The only one listed that I listen to is the RVW.


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## violadude

Excuse me, I havent listened to the Schubert Quintet.  Sounds like it's very much recommended.


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## Artemis

violadude said:


> Excuse me, I havent listened to the Schubert Quintet.  Sounds like it's very much recommended.


You definitely should acquire this work as it's generally considered to be not just one of the best string quintets ever written but a worthy contender to be among the very "tops" of all chamber music. I haven't voted in this poll, as it's obviously a runaway win for Schubert.

No classical collection should be without this work, even if chamber music is not one's forte, although in your case I guess it must be given your screen name. The work is of extremely high quality throughout its four movements but the very famous second movement is to die for. The whole work has a hard-to-define surreal feel to it. It was among the very last works that Schubert was able to complete, and many people have suggested that it was a valedictory work (Schubert saying goodbye to this world). If that was the case, it's a magnificent way of doing so, but I doubt that it was Schubert's intention. Only a tiny few composers could write music at this high level of quality, and Schubert was among them (Mozart, Beethoven yes; others doubtful).

There are very many recordings of this work. The topic of which are the best frequently come up on music forums. I have a large number of recordings of this work as it's among my overall favourites. There are lots of duff versions of this work, so watch out. The two versions that I would recommend are (1) Hollywood Quartet, (2) Hagen Quartet with Heinrich Schiff. These are not just my favourite versions but they tend to come up as highly favoured in general reviews. The Hollyword Quartet version is quite old (it's in mono!) but don't let that put you off, as it's still extremely good. Timings and phasings are all important in this work, and these two versions get it right, combined with generally excellent playing.


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## TxllxT

This is my favourite quintet-box. After listening to it, the music returns even during my sleep.


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## Xaltotun

Odnoposoff said:


> Cesar Franck


Franck had a string quintet? I didn't know one existed? Or do you mean his piano quintet? It is indeed a magnificient piece of work, but this thread and poll were about string quintets.


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## Taneyev

Sergei Taneyev
Glazunov
Borodin 
Goldmark


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## itywltmt

For me, I went "off the board" for Schubert's D 810 String Quartet No. 14 in D minor, Death and the Maiden


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## Taneyev

Sorry, I mean Edward Franck.


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## MJongo

Schubert, by a large margin.


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## Art Rock

It's baffling how many people confuse string quintets with string quartets and piano quintets.


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## DaDirkNL

The Schubert quintet. I don't see why any other quintet would have even the slightest chance of competing against this beauty.


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## MJongo

[SUB][/SUB]


Art Rock said:


> It's baffling how many people confuse string quintets with string quartets and piano quintets.


Oops, posted in the wrong topic; sorry!


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## ahammel

I cannot, in all honesty, vote against Schubert's, although K515 (which inspired it) is quite an amazing work as well.

Mendelssohn's are also excellent.


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## aajj

I cannot choose between Schubert and Mozart's in G Minor, K516. For me, they each tower above all others.


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## SeptimalTritone

Morton Feldman's Violin and String Quartet.

Seriously, the difference between this piece and anything else is like comparing the Fractional Quantum Hall energy scale to the Grand Unified Theory energy scale.

This piece is the greatest string quintet of all time.


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## Vaneyes

I don't know.


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## DavidA

Schubert no question!


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## trazom

ahammel said:


> I cannot, in all honesty, vote against Schubert's, although K515 (which inspired it) is quite an amazing work as well.
> 
> Mendelssohn's are also excellent.


I've heard the C major quintet of Mozart's inspired the Schubert quintet, maybe; but Schubert must've also preferred the D major quintet of Mozart's since there are almost exact quotations of it in Schubert's C major quintet and the "Trout" piano quintet.


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## ahammel

trazom said:


> I've heard the C major quintet of Mozart's inspired the Schubert quintet, maybe; but Schubert must've also preferred the D major quintet of Mozart's since there are almost exact quotations of it in Schubert's C major quintet and the "Trout" piano quintet.


Not to mention Schubert's fifth symphony, which is an unabashed pastiche of Mozart's style.

_O Mozart! immortal Mozart! what countless impressions of a brighter, better life hast thou stamped upon our souls!_


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## DiesIraeCX

1. Schubert String Quintet, D. 956
2. Brahms String Quintet No. 2
3. Mozart String Quintet in G Minor


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## Ukko

I think it's a matter of strongest 'pull'. and that is analogous to a subjective 'fish scale'. For me it's the Schubert usually, because the hook is impossible to avoid. Mozart's K.516 needs a smidgin of help from 'where I'm at'. Note that neither of these works are 'uppers'; what does that say about the price of tea?


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## KenOC

Certainly the Schubert is the prime candidate, so long as that ridiculous first movement expo repeat is edited out. Helpful hint: Remove the first statement, not the second. Easier and more sanitary.


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## ahammel

KenOC said:


> Certainly the Schubert is the prime candidate, so long as that ridiculous first movement expo repeat is edited out. Helpful hint: Remove the first statement, not the second. Easier and more sanitary.


I'm sure Schubert didn't realize you have a train to catch.


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## KenOC

ahammel said:


> I'm sure Schubert didn't realize you have a train to catch.


C'mon now, it cost Schubert 30 seconds to put in the repeat sign. It was quite inconsiderate of him not to consider that some us have other things to do!


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## PeterF

I very much like many string quintets including the two by Mozart, the two by Brahms, the one by Beethoven as well as others by a number of composers. However I voted for the Schubert which is one of the greatest of all chamber music compositions.


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## wolfango

I voted Mozart K.516, but I fully understand the popularity of Schubert's magnificent quintet.


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## hpowders

I would say the Mozart G minor String Quintet is the greatest. It has the most profound slow movement, a tribute to his recently deceased father. A very special piece from the Mozart oeuvre.


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## worov




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## clavichorder

Dvorak Quintet op 77 in G major is highly underrated. It might be my favorite.


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## trazom

clavichorder said:


> Dvorak Quintet op 77 in G major is highly underrated. It might be my favorite.


I enjoyed that piece a lot too. Thanks for sharing it the other day!


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## MoonlightSonata

I do like the Schubert one in C Major.


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## Lord Lance

There is no such thing as "greatest". Its all subjective opinion in the end. Objective opinions don't exist.

If you think that you've heard the greatest, then you're a naive fool. Finish listening and evaluating *all* the string quartets before pouring superlatives. {You'll be long dead before such an objective could be achieved; hence, the foolishness of the question.}


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## Albert7

SeptimalTritone said:


> Morton Feldman's Violin and String Quartet.
> 
> Seriously, the difference between this piece and anything else is like comparing the Fractional Quantum Hall energy scale to the Grand Unified Theory energy scale.
> 
> This piece is the greatest string quintet of all time.


I agree... this and anything by Schubert or Beethoven or Brahms quintet-wise. Go Feldman!


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## Guest

Mozart, Schubert, Feldman.


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## clavichorder

I just listened to Mozart's k 593 in D major and I could've sworn I'd heard it a long time ago, or at least parts of it. That counterpoint in the final movement is dazzling. All in all, Mozart at his wittiest and most superior.


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## clavichorder

If sextets were included in this poll, Tchaikovsky's 'Souvenir de Florence' sextet and both of Brahms' would probably do well. All three are masterpieces.


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## Brahmsian Colors

No greatest, only favorites: Schubert D. 956, Brahms No.1 opus 88, Dvorak No.3 opus 97


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## tdc

TC got it wrong here in my opinion. The 1st prize winner should definitely be Mozart's K 516.


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## hpowders

Yes. The Mozart G minor string quintet, as far as connoisseurs like myself are concerned, is the greatest string quintet ever written.


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## hpowders

tdc said:


> TC got it wrong here in my opinion. The 1st prize winner should definitely be Mozart's K 516.


Quite often I am at odds with TC "prime" choices. I agree with you!


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## hpowders

If the name "Schubert" was attached to K 516, the G minor would have won unanimously!!


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## DiesIraeCX

Because Schubert is a bigger name than Mozart? I don't follow that.


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## Vaneyes

K.593 and K.614 are my favorite *Mozart* String Quintets. Jus' sayin'.

Today, my overall fave will be *RVW's* Phantasy Quintet (1912).


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## Guest

Vaneyes said:


> K.593 and K.614 are my favorite *Mozart* String Quintets. Jus' sayin'.
> 
> Today, my overall fave will be *RVW's* Phantasy Quintet (1912).


Are you a connoisseur?


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## TurnaboutVox

Anton Bruckner's String Quintet in F major, WAB 112 is also a very strong work, though I'm not arguing that it's greater than the Schubert or Mozart's K. 515 / 516 quintets.


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## musicrom

I don't really know that many string quintets, but I apparently already voted a while ago for Other, and it still stands that my favorite string quintet is Brahms' 1st string quintet. I'm not going to claim it's the greatest though, when I haven't heard all the others on the list yet.


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## jegreenwood

I have often said that I think the Schubert is the most beautiful piece of music ever written. Not necessarily the greatest - but the most beautiful.


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## Guest

In the most traditional setting (two violas) Mozart's quintets have to be the greatest! But the Schubert quintet is an extraordinary composition so I gave him the vote.


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## Pugg

Dvorak, "American" String Quintet in E-flat, Opus 97, underrated


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## Rhinotop

Schubert's string quintet: Intense, robust, dramatic


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## ahinton

clavichorder said:


> Dvorak Quintet op 77 in G major is highly underrated. It might be my favorite.


And unusual in that it has neither second viola (like Mozart's) or second cello (like so many others) but double bass.

No such thing as greatest, as has already been said - but Mozart G minor, then perhaps either of Brahms.


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## hpowders

I once had tickets to see a broadway show. Because the theater was the Schubert theater, I decided to stay home.


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## Reichstag aus LICHT

The Schubert, every time, for me.


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## hpowders

Everything on that list except the Schubert.

Special mention. The Mozart G minor and the Brahms G Major are both better compositions than the Schubert, IMHO. Highly over-rated!


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## hpowders

The String Quintet like the Ninth Symphony share Schubert weaknesses that drive me nuts-excessively repetitive and rhythmically tedious. In the rhythmically tedious category, Schubert shares this annoying tendency with the composer of the Bruckner symphonic scherzos.


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## Pugg

Reichstag aus LICHT said:


> The Schubert, every time, for me.


Very good choice Reichstag .


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## Guest

I don't mean to dispute the merits of the Schubert string quintet. It is a wonderful piece and I personally was unable to pick a favorite. However, the overwhelming victory afforded the Schubert over the others makes me question the veracity of the voting. I strongly believe there are many who were thinking of the "Trout" quintet instead of the string quintet. It may have won anyway, but I doubt the margin would be so large.


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## Lenny

Brahms #1, Brahms #2 for me.


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## ahinton

Given that, in the vast majority of cases, string _quar_tets are scored for two violins, viola and cello whereas string _quin_tets are scored for string quartet + either second viola, second cello or double bass, should this thread accordingly be divided into three?


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## Brahmsian Colors

Lenny said:


> Brahms #1, Brahms #2 for me.


While I still enjoy the Schubert and Dvorak opus 97 String Quintets, my absolute favorites are the exact two you have cited.


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## Vaneyes

Now hear this. There's not enough love shown here for *Mendelssohn's*. And the Raphael Ensemble rec. is a good place to start and finish.


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## DavidA

Schubert by the length of a street


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## ahinton

DavidA said:


> Schubert by the length of a street


Some streets are very short.

Anyway, in purely statistical terms, perhaps one of the greatest is Schönberg's Second String Quartet because it calls for five performers...


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## hpowders

Sorry, but for the most profound music, as much as I am a big fan of the Brahms Quintets, it is the Mozart G minor Quintet that emerges victorious.

For those who didn't choose the Mozart, I have to wonder if they have even heard it.


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## Bettina

hpowders said:


> Sorry, but for the most profound music, as much as I am a big fan of the Brahms Quintets, it is the Mozart G minor Quintet that emerges victorious.
> 
> For those who didn't choose the Mozart, I have to wonder if they have even heard it.


Your post made me go back and check to see what I actually did choose! It's been a few weeks since I voted. Turns out that I chose Mozart's C Major Quintet. But don't hate me for it--I love the G minor Quintet _almost _as much!


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## ahinton

Bettina said:


> Your post made me go back and check to see what I actually did choose! It's been a few weeks since I voted. Turns out that I chose Mozart's C Major Quintet. But don't hate me for it--I love the G minor Quintet _almost _as much!


Well, whatever I've written here in this thread, never let it be said or thought that I hold Mozart's string quintets in anything other then the very highest regard...


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## hpowders

Bettina said:


> Your post made me go back and check to see what I actually did choose! It's been a few weeks since I voted. Turns out that I chose Mozart's C Major Quintet. But don't hate me for it--I love the G minor Quintet _almost _as much!


The Mozart C Major is also very good. No shame in choosing that one! The G minor was written after his father's death, so it is a more serious and profound work. I love how after the gloomy slow introduction to the final movement in G minor, it leads into a G Major burst of optimistic sunlight as if Mozart is implying that "life goes on" despite life's disappointments and tragedies.

As far as I am concerned, the Mozart G minor AND C Major String Quintets are both greater works than any of his string quartets.

I could never hate you, Bettina.


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## Brahmsian Colors

Bettina said:


> Your post made me go back and check to see what I actually did choose! It's been a few weeks since I voted. Turns out that I chose Mozart's C Major Quintet. But don't hate me for it--I love the G minor Quintet _almost _as much!


Well, after what I read here, I too had to check (my lps) for Wolfgang's recordings of the String Quintets. After taking a most enjoyable listen to both the C major and G minor, I said to myself I should be pilloried for having ignored them for such a long time. I own several versions, but it was the Budapest String Quartet with Walter Trampler, from their complete Columbia set, that I put on the turntable for a spin. Indeed, I had virtually forgotten how each of the Quintets was simply superb in its own way. The Brahms Quintets, which I previously listed as my favorites in this category, are of course just very different from those of Mozart. All four compositions give great pleasure. A kind thanks to the two of you---Bettina and hpowders---for getting me in touch once again with these gems.


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## MarkW

I prrefer the wind version of the Mozart c minor and Brahms' sextets to his quintets, so I'll go with the Schubert.


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## hpowders

In real time: Still the Mozart G minor followed by the Brahms G Major.


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## Pugg

Schubert, String Quintet in C, D. 956 may crown itself a real winner, by a landslide.


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## David Phillips

A tough choice, but I've gone for Dvorak's endearingly tuneful 'American'.


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## MusicSybarite

Maybe to say the greatest one would be very subjective, the favorite one would be more appropriate. The Schubert wins for me. Also, I must mention both by Brahms, opp. 77 and 97 by Dvorák, the Bruckner's in F major, the Beethoven's in C major op. 29, the _Phantasy Quintet_ by Vaughan Williams, and one less known: the _String quintet in G major_ by Théodore Gouvy. It's so lovely!!


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## Quartetfore

MusicSybarite said:


> Maybe to say the greatest one would be very subjective, the favorite one would be more appropriate. The Schubert wins for me. Also, I must mention both by Brahms, opp. 77 and 97 by Dvorák, the Bruckner's in F major, the Beethoven's in C major op. 29, the _Phantasy Quintet_ by Vaughan Williams, and one less known: the _String quintet in G major_ by Théodore Gouvy. It's so lovely!!


Gouvy composed some very nice music for Piano Trio.


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## MusicSybarite

Quartetfore said:


> Gouvy composed some very nice music for Piano Trio.


I have two of them (Opp. 18 and 19) (actually I don't know how many piano trios Gouvy composed). They are awaiting for a deserved listening.


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## Quartetfore

MusicSybarite said:


> I have two of them (Opp. 18 and 19) (actually I don't know how many piano trios Gouvy composed). They are awaiting for a deserved listening.


He composed five Piano Trios. He was very active in the Chamber Music Genre, he also composed five published String Quartets as well as six unpublished ones. In addition he composed a number of String Quintets and works for violin and Piano.


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## fluteman

The Mozart G minor is at the top of my list of favorites, followed closely by the Schubert C major. But that is a great list overall. The Brahms quintets are usually not as celebrated as his sextets, but Op. 111 is also high on my list.


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## Dumbo

Well, that was a no-brainer. Schubert, of course.

One of my favorite Holocaust flicks (and I have many, because it's one of my interests) is Conspiracy, starring Kenneth Branagh as Reinhard Heydrich, perhaps the most terrible human being to ever live, with no hyperbole. It's about the Conference of Wannsee, the meeting where top Nazis and German jurists convened to discuss how to implement the Final Solution, and how to make it legal.

There is an amazing scene near the end of the film where Heydrich listens to the second movement of Schubert's String Quintet, and is visibly transported by it, and he comments how Schubert's Quintet can "Tear your heart out." For me, that was the most memorable line of the film. Too many ironies to unpack.


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## hpowders

Bettina said:


> Your post made me go back and check to see what I actually did choose! It's been a few weeks since I voted. Turns out that I chose Mozart's C Major Quintet. But don't hate me for it--I love the G minor Quintet _almost _as much!


Lets see: Reads NY Times; prefers Scarlatti and Bach on piano; chooses Mozart's C Major String Quintet over the G minor....

oh well....my friends list deletion mechanism is still outta order.


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## bestellen

I cannot choose between Schubert and Mozart's.


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## Quartetfore

I saw that movie several years ago. In the end Heydrich got what he deserved! For those who perhaps don`t know, he died of his wounds after his car was attacked.


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## Dumbo

Heydrich was placed in charge of pacifying the Bohemian region. Czech nationalists ambushed his car on the road and got him good. Hitler was so furious that he ordered a massacre. I think he ordered 100,000 killed, then when it was pointed out how impractical that would be, he compromised down to 50,000. Thus we got the Lidiice Massacre. And Bohuslav Martinu's piece, "Memorial to the people of Lidice."


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## Quartetfore

Dumbo said:


> Heydrich was placed in charge of pacifying the Bohemian region. Czech nationalists ambushed his car on the road and got him good. Hitler was so furious that he ordered a massacre. I think he ordered 100,000 killed, then when it was pointed out how impractical that would be, he compromised down to 50,000. Thus we got the Lidiice Massacre. And Bohuslav Martinu's piece, "Memorial to the people of Lidice."


They gave him a great send off,but that was typical of those butchers


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## jegreenwood

Quartetfore said:


> They gave him a great send off,but that was typical of those butchers


Getting (more than) a little off-track here, but is anyone else here a fan of the Bernie Gunther mysteries? In "Prague Fatale" Gunther finds himself solving a country house murder - at Heydrich's country house. Philip Kerr, the author, describes it as "_Downton Abbey_ with SS."

And to be clear, Kerr does not treat this a matter of amusement. The Gunther books are explorations of how to maintain some kind of moral compass in an environment devoid of morality.


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## fluteman

Dumbo said:


> Well, that was a no-brainer. Schubert, of course.
> 
> One of my favorite Holocaust flicks (and I have many, because it's one of my interests) is Conspiracy, starring Kenneth Branagh as Reinhard Heydrich, perhaps the most terrible human being to ever live, with no hyperbole. It's about the Conference of Wannsee, the meeting where top Nazis and German jurists convened to discuss how to implement the Final Solution, and how to make it legal.
> 
> There is an amazing scene near the end of the film where Heydrich listens to the second movement of Schubert's String Quintet, and is visibly transported by it, and he comments how Schubert's Quintet can "Tear your heart out." For me, that was the most memorable line of the film. Too many ironies to unpack.


The Schubert cello quintet is often used in movies, but that scene stands out in my memory too.


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## jegreenwood

fluteman said:


> The Schubert cello quintet is often used in movies, but that scene stands out in my memory too.


It was used in the episode of "Endeavour" shown on New York's Public Television station this past Sunday.


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## Gaspard de la Nuit

Ravel's is the greatest and most beautiful.


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## Art Rock

Gaspard de la Nuit said:


> Ravel's is the greatest and most beautiful.


and one player short......


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## misteraitch

I voted Schubert too, with K515 taking silver. While not in the same league, I also love Boccherini's quintets, at least the half dozen or so of them I've heard, and George Onslow's too. Even more of an obscurity, Friedrich Dotzauer's quintet is lovely too.


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## Page

For my part I find that Haydn string quartet in C Major op. 20/II, H.III.32 (in the version of Quatuor Mosaïques) is a great moment of music, especially the second movment. Did not Haydn lay the foundations of the string quartet which Mozart so much admired ?

Also the quartet Emperor op.76 n°3 with the German national hymn (I'm not German !) :


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## Marisstella

Is the poll on another page ? Was expecting to see a multiple choice layout


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## philoctetes

That's an amazing list of masterpieces. and Bruckner should be included...


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## Hermastersvoice

I often wondered about Mozart’s obvious affinity with the viola. His String quartets are no doubt marvelous but add on the viola and the quintets are at another level altogether. That of course came after Kegelstatt trio and Sinfonia Concertante which apparently was one of his favorite works. I’m sure this affinity is well known. Any comments?


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## fluteman

Hermastersvoice said:


> I often wondered about Mozart's obvious affinity with the viola. His String quartets are no doubt marvelous but add on the viola and the quintets are at another level altogether. That of course came after Kegelstatt trio and Sinfonia Concertante which apparently was one of his favorite works. I'm sure this affinity is well known. Any comments?


I'm sure being a phenomenal violin and viola player himself had something to do with it. Of course, having a good friend who happened to be a horn player was enough for him to write four spectacular horn concertos. Basically, he understood the standard instruments of his day, and even one or two non-standard ones, to the nth degree.


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## Over the Rainbow

For me, without any doubt SCHUBERT D. 956


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## Rogerx

Marisstella said:


> Is the poll on another page ? Was expecting to see a multiple choice layout


It is a multiple choice poll, on the top of the page you can see 7 choices and no 8 = other.


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## Brahmsian Colors

It's been a couple of years since I last posted here. Clearly emerging as my favorites now (no specific order) are the Brahms No. 1 in F major, op.88 and the Mozart No. 3 in C major, K 515.


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## KenOC

We shouldn't forget Beethoven's Op. 29 Quintet, an early forecast of his middle period. A nice work, with a decidedly odd formal layout.


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## hammeredklavier

hpowders said:


> As far as I am concerned, the Mozart G minor AND C Major String Quintets are both greater works than any of his string quartets.


greater than the 'Haydn' Quartets (#14~19)? I doubt it


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## PlaySalieri

It doesnt surprise me too much that Schubert has walked away with this one. Though I think either of Mozart's two great quintets are as good and I suspect many who voted Schubert would put k515 or k516 2nd.

From this poll then mozart and schubert account for 75% of the greatest str quintets.


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## Woodduck

If I could change my vote I'd choose the Mozart g-minor rather than the Schubert. The main reason to pick Schubert is the extraordinary adagio movement, one of music's greatest inspirations. Without it, I don't think Schubert's work is in the same league as Mozart's, which is no less profound and musically more complex.


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## PlaySalieri

Woodduck said:


> If I could change my vote I'd choose the Mozart g-minor rather than the Schubert. The main reason to pick Schubert is the extraordinary adagio movement, one of music's greatest inspirations. Without it, I don't think Schubert's work is in the same league as Mozart's, which is no less profound and musically more complex.


then why did this not occur to you in the first place?

the slow movt in the g minor is special too


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## Josquin13

My favorite string quintets are Schubert's D. 956, Brahms' Op. 88 & 111, and Mozart's 6 SQs--but especially his No. 5 in D major, K. 593: 



, & No. 6, K. 614: 



. Though I'm fond of K. 515 & 516 too (well I'm fond of all six of them):






Among my favorite recordings are Hausmusik's period set:














I also like the Orlando Quartet, the Grumiaux Ensemble, and Josef Suk with the Smetana Quartet in these works.

My favorite recording of the Schubert Quintet is by the Vellinger Quartet with cellist Bernard Greenhouse, who play the 2nd movement more beautifully & movingly than anyone I've heard:


















My favorite recording of the Brahms Op.88 & 110 String Quintets is by the Boston Symphony Chamber Players on Nonesuch--this is a desert island Brahms disc in my collection: 




I also like Mendelssohn's 2 String Quintets: 



. & I'll occasionally listen to one of Boccherini's many String Quintets: I particularly like the period recordings of La Magnifica Communità and violinst Enrico Casazza: 




Other SQs that have interested me:

1. Peter Hänsel: String Quintet in G Major: 




2. Ralph Vaughan Williams: Phantasy Quintet (1912): 




3. A contemporary String Quintet that I've greatly admired is Finnish composer Einojuhani Rautavaara's (1997?) String Quintet entitled, "Les Cieux Inconnues" or "Unknown Heavens":






4. Finally, most recently, in 2005, young Jay Greenberg's String Quintet shows potential. Greenberg has the ability to think in multiple parts at once, which is a rare gift these days:


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## Woodduck

stomanek said:


> then why did this not occur to you in the first place?


Because I am human, fallible, and capable of change. How about you?


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## PlaySalieri

Woodduck said:


> Because I am human, fallible, and capable of change. How about you?


just wondering. Yes maybe I vote occasionally and change my mind.


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## Musicaterina

I like cello quintets (like most of the quintets by Boccherini and the quintet of Schubert) better than viola quintets (like the one of Beethoven). My favourites are the ones by Boccherini, especially the quintet Op. 11 Nr. 5, G. 275 with the famous minuet, and the string quintet in C Major G. 324, Op. 30, No.6, "La musica notturna delle strade di Madrid" .


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## Kreisler jr

The Schubert quintet is unique, of course, but one could argue that it is not as "chamber-like" as the Mozart, Mendelssohn or Brahms quintets but seems to go for quasi-orchestral textures. Sure, so does Brahms in a few passages (like the beginning of his op.111) but overall they go more for counterpoint than "big sound". That's not better or worse but just different and maybe also connected to having an additional cello instead of an "inner part" like the 2nd viola.
So my favorite with 'cello is Schubert and it is quite alone. I have heard some of Boccherini's, but he actually wrote both types and while I think he is underrated he is not quite up there with Mozart and Brahms. There is also an early one with 2nd cello by Borodin and e.g. Dvorak has one with double bass, I believe. My favorite with viola is a tie between Mozart D major K 593 and g minor K 516. Of Brahms' I prefer the first one not listed in the poll and for Mendelssohn I'd have to check which one I prefer. Beethoven's is also a bit underrated although undoubtedly a somewhat strange piece (in a rather different style than the quartets, going more for quasi-orchestral than complex polyphony).


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## Oldhoosierdude

PlaySalieri said:


> just wondering. Yes maybe I vote occasionally and change my mind.


Let's not talk politics.


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## hammeredklavier

4:28




3:00


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## Brahmsian Colors

Update on favorite string quintets...

Brahms No. 1, opus 88
Brahms No. 2, opus 111
Dvorak No. 3, opus 97
Mozart No. 3, K 515
Mozart No. 4, K 516


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## hammeredklavier

I. 



III. 



V. 



I think the way to handle "darker shades" in this work, especially in the 3rd movement, is reminiscent of his other works such as








(To me, the pedal point on A in the bass "hits like a brick")
Certain similarities of gesture in the 1st and 6th movements:
I. 



IV.


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## Merl

The poll says I've already voted but I've no idea what I voted for, or when (tbf this thread is 11 years old). I'm not going to add much as it's been an extensive thread with so many great suggestions but '2016 Merl' would probably have voted for Schubert's D956 as that used to be my fave quintet. By 2018 I would have probably changed that to Mendelssohn op.87, Beethoven op.29 or, for the past few years, Dvorak's op.97. Problem is I change my mind and play so many others, constantly, so Boccherini quintets had probably had more stick since then. I'll also put in a shout for Nielsen's Quintet in G major. Some great mentions already in this thread, though (Onslow, etc).


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## Art Rock

Merl said:


> The poll says I've already voted but I've no idea what I voted for....


Schubert. Clicking any number of votes for a work in the poll reveals all voters' choices (of course not for an anonymous poll).


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## Merl

Art Rock said:


> Schubert. Clicking any number of votes for a work in the poll reveals all voters' choices (of course not for an anonymous poll).


Told you so. I wouldn't vote that way if I voted today.


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## Brahmsian Colors

The Brahms String Quintet no.1, op. 88, has become my stand alone choice as most enjoyable and favorite of all string quintets.


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## Merl

Brahmsian Colors said:


> The Brahms String Quintet no.1, op. 88, has become my stand alone choice as most enjoyable and favorite of all string quintets.
> 
> View attachment 160716


That Raphael recording sure is a lovely one. I should do a review of Brahms Quintet recordings some time for my blog. One for the future, methinks.


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## Xisten267

I voted for the Schubert back in 2018 and would still vote for it today. It's just miles ahead of any other work in the genre in terms of expression and profundity to my ears and brain. My favorite performance is with the Melos Quartet plus Rostropovich.


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## SanAntone

Maybe not the greatest, but worth mentioning.

Max Bruch – Quintet in A minor
Felix Draeseke - Cello Quintet, Op. 77
Wolf-Ferrari - Quintet in C, Op. 24


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## Waehnen

*A new member voting for the best String Quintet*

For some reason I find myself preferring String Quintets to String Quartets. It must be something about breaking the distinct 4 part harmonies (predictability annoys me!) and adding layers of texture (unpredictability!).

My favourite string quintets must the Beethoven op. 29, Mozart K515 & K516, the Schubert masterpiece of course, the second one in B-major by Mendelssohn and the both Brahms masterpieces.

I decided to vote for the Beethoven for while listening to it, for some reason I "feel completely at home". Hard to analyze what contributes to this feeling. Anyway I am thrilled and comforted by the material and the textures.

It´s like, "How can you always be so absolutely brilliant, dear Ludwig?"


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## Brahmsian Colors

Merl said:


> That Raphael recording sure is a lovely one. I should do a review of Brahms Quintet recordings some time for my blog. One for the future, methinks.


Yes, the Raphael's performance is certainly a wonderful one. I also feel the same about their renditions of the Brahms String Sextets _and_ the Dvorak opus 97 String Quintet. I believe the Raphael is a superb ensemble, and look forward to your review of their Brahms Quintet recordings.


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## Kreisler jr

What I do find strange and this impression seems to supported by several posts is that the original poll excluded the first Brahms (and Mendelssohn) quintets and the last two by Mozart, as if it was obvious that they would not be among the candidates for greatest.
I have not heard the Raphael (but I like their sextets a lot); my favorite is the probably unavailable Boston Chamber Players (Nonesuch).


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## SanAntone

Regarding the Brahms Sextets, these two recordings iby *L'Archibudelli* and the *Nash Ensemble* are among my favorites


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## Merl

SanAntone said:


> Regarding the Brahms Sextets, these two recordings iby *L'Archibudelli* and the *Nash Ensemble* are among my favorites


More excellent recommendations!


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## hammeredklavier

(I just wish this was completed)


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## Roger Knox

Waehnen said:


> For some reason I find myself preferring String Quintets to String Quartets. It must be something about breaking the distinct 4 part harmonies (predictability annoys me!) and adding layers of texture (unpredictability!)


I had a class with a musicologist expert in German 19th-century music (Robert Bailey). He held that, with the orchestral double basses moving from doubling the cellos an octave below to having an independent part (beginning with Beethoven I believe), composers became expert in writing for strings in all situations as a "Quintet" rather than as a "Quartet." Specifically he mentioned Brahms's greater facility with his String Quintets (and Sextets) than his String Quartets, which many have criticized.

Also I support your point about "breaking the distinct 4 part harmonies ... ". Being of the older generation, I wrote tons of 4-part harmony exercises in music theory class. But when it came to composing a string quartet my composition teacher emphasized changing the part styles and texture in all sorts of ways to avoid the suggestion of 4-part chorales.


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## Kreisler jr

No, Brahms also wrote for two violas. There are a few more with 2nd cello but the only really famous 2 celli quintet is Schubert's. So I think the point maybe true for orchestral writing but never really transferred to chamber music. Otherwise there should be far more quintets than there are and more quintets with two celli.
Quite the contrary seems to have been the case, Boccherini wrote about as many quintets (both 2 cello and 2 viola) as quartets but once the quartet was established as standard it totally dominated and there are very few important string quintets in the 20th century, but many string quartets.


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## Roger Knox

Kreisler jr said:


> No, Brahms also wrote for two violas. There are a few more with 2nd cello but the only really famous 2 celli quintet is Schubert's. So I think the point maybe true for orchestral writing but never really transferred to chamber music. Otherwise there should be far more quintets than there are and more quintets with two celli.
> Quite the contrary seems to have been the case, Boccherini wrote about as many quintets (both 2 cello and 2 viola) as quartets but once the quartet was established as standard it totally dominated and there are very few important string quintets in the 20th century, but many string quartets.


Yes you're right about the Brahms quintets using two violas (my error not my professor's). And also about the 20th-century as an era of string quartets. There was a period in the late 19th century when more string quintets and sextets were composed but as you say they never took the place of the string quartet. Those late 19th-century composers of string quintets or sextets include Bruckner, Brahms, Tchaikovsky (Souvenir de Florence), Dvorak, Fauré, Dohnanyi, Taneyev, Reger, Schoenberg (Verklärte Nacht).

As for Brahms I know from my own playing that he liked thicker textures in the low-mid-range piano register and using the lower orchestral strings. I've heard so many people criticize his string quartets that there must be some reason for the medium being less congenial to him.


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## hammeredklavier

Kreisler jr said:


> Quite the contrary seems to have been the case, Boccherini wrote about as many quintets (both 2 cello and 2 viola) as quartets but once the quartet was established as standard it totally dominated and there are very few important string quintets in the 20th century, but many string quartets.


I disagree. The quartet represented the most basic, generic format for the standard 4-part SATB of classical harmony (can be easily transcribed to the "voice-leading keyboard style" in thinking), and has nothing to do with "what sounds good in chamber music". (It's kind of like how solo piano sonatas have been more popular than four-hand or two piano sonatas). The practice of composing in the format actually somewhat faded in the 19th century (I remember Samuel Andreyev saying something similar in one of his videos, I think it's this one, but I'm not 100% sure: 



), but resurged with the rise of Neoclassicism and modernism. I think modern composers like Carter would have written trios, quintets, or sextets instead of quartets if someone paid them money to do it, saying "Why not?".


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## Kreisler jr

I think the Brahms string quartets are much better than their apparent reputation and if they are a bit difficult, I think it is more because of the "shadows" of Haydn, Mozart, Beethoven, Schubert that loomed so large for him. (And he pays respects to all of them, the c minor seems Beethovenian, the a minor Schubertian, the B flat major Mozartian.)

It was similar with the symphony but he overcame the anxiety earlier for string quartets. Interestingly the only chamber music without piano he wrote before were the sextets, a form with even less historical baggage. And then he waited so long before the two late quintets that I assume he was never quite comfortable without piano.

Generally, I think your point is very valid, especially as before the division of cello and bass in the 19th century there had been 5 part orchestral writing for 2 vl. 2 va. and cello/bass, both in the baroque and in some works of Mozart (Sinfonia concertante and I think one or both of symphonies 33 and 34 have 2 viola parts at least in one movement). 
So the domination of the string quartet vs. quintet is a bit puzzling, but that's how it was.

@hammeredklavier. I don't understand what you disagree with and what you are talking about. 
I for one didn't claim anything about "what sounds good." My suggestion is that the quartet dominated because of "trendsetting" by well known composers in the late 18th century and then especially by Beethoven. Spohr and Onslow still wrote a lot of quintets but hardly anyone else did. And the other strong factor at some stage in the 19th century was the formation of professional string quartets.


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## Kreisler jr

To clarify: The idea related by Roger Knox in #158 was that the 5 part writing with independent double bass in 19th century orchestral should have led to more non-quartet chamber music, especially to string quintets "mirroring" the orchestral string parts, i.e. two low string parts.

The problem seems that it did not, at least not to a significant extent. On the contrary, most famous quintets are with two viole, not with two celli or cello and bass and at least by the most famous composers there are relatively (far) more quartets compared to quintets in the mid-late 19th and 20th century than in the late 18th century. 
So when composers wrote 4 part strings for orchestra (because basses only doubled celli) in the late 18th century, they wrote more string quintets than at a time when they wrote 5 part orchestral strings. Therefore I don't see any evidence for the connection suggested in #158.

And the 4 part SATB is in no way "natural" (not even for choirs, just look at the many different renaissance and even baroque choral settings). For the ~100 years before string quartets the most common chamber music genre was the trio sonata!


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## hammeredklavier

Kreisler jr said:


> And the 4 part SATB is in no way "natural" (not even for choirs, just look at the many different renaissance and even baroque choral settings). For the ~100 years before string quartets the most common chamber music genre was the trio sonata!


I was talking about 18th century style voice-leading though (aka. the "keyboard style", arguably the most standardized way to "think" or transcribe music at the time, with the triads and 7th chords and stuff.)







I'm saying that the quartet (the instrumentation) reflects this (the "ideal"). And I see no point talking about eras where composers didn't use tertian tonal harmony like it.


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## Waehnen

Just stating that I appreciate the discussion on the 4 and 5 part harmony writing, all the comments, even if contradictory. These things can be hard to pin-point. 

My point in bringing this thing up comes from the fact that predictability and a strong feeling of ´genre´ are both huge no-no´s for me and they can totally ruin a musical experience. Only inspired music can surpass the genre. Not all string quartets do that. String quintets tend to be more inspired than quartets, in my experience, due to the fact of unpredictability when in comparison to quartets, and an additional element in the textural set-up.


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## BrahmsWasAGreatMelodist

The echo chamber of TC will say Schubert - a great one no doubt - but the correct answer is Brahms G Major.


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## Xisten267

BrahmsWasAGreatMelodist said:


> The echo chamber of TC will say Schubert - a great one no doubt - but the correct answer is Brahms G Major.


Could you please tell me which is your favorite recording of it (the Brahms')?


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## hammeredklavier




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## Kreisler jr

BrahmsWasAGreatMelodist said:


> The echo chamber of TC will say Schubert - a great one no doubt - but the correct answer is Brahms G Major.


Of Brahms' I prefer Brahms' F major and despite the person making the poll not even considering it as an option, it was mentioned by several contributors.


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## Kreisler jr

hammeredklavier said:


> I was talking about 18th century style voice-leading though (aka. the "keyboard style", arguably the most standardized way to "think" or transcribe music at the time, with the triads and 7th chords and stuff.)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm saying that the quartet (the instrumentation) reflects this (the "ideal"). And I see no point talking about eras where composers didn't use tertian tonal harmony like it.


But what follows from this for quintets vs. quartets?
Why was there no widespread standard instrumental quartet in the first half of the 18th century? (Or in the 17th century?)

Why did the string quartet dominate more strongly (vs. quintet) in the 19th and 20th century than in the late 18th century? It seems that like the other hypothesis about 5 part orchestral string writing this general part writing argument explains very little about this differences.

Maybe it is one reason*for* quartets but hardly *against* quintets and how could it contribute to explain why Boccherini, M. Haydn, Onslow wrote many quintets but J. Haydn, Beethoven or Dvorak so few or none at all?


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## hammeredklavier

Kreisler jr said:


> But what follows from this for quintets vs. quartets?
> Why was there no widespread standard instrumental quartet in the first half of the 18th century? (Or in the 17th century?). Maybe it is one reason*for* quartets but hardly *against* quintets and how could it contribute to explain why Boccherini, M. Haydn, Onslow wrote many quintets but J. Haydn, Beethoven or Dvorak so few or none at all?


I'm just saying that there exist "basic", "regular", "generic" formats (not in the negative sense) in music based on convenience of practicality or musical thinking (for instance, Mozart's two-piano/four-hand sonatas are generally more substantial works than his solo piano sonatas, but it's the solo works that are more abundant and better-known). The 18th century style tonal harmony wasn't in its full shape in the times of Pachelbel, for instance. Things took time to become formulated and wide-spread.
The 4-part voice-leading, which was the fundamental basis of 18th century musical thinking, might have prompted the composers to choose the quartet as the most bread-and-butter format in string chamber music by default. It may not be the best analogy, but the fact that humans count by decimals has to do with the fact they have 10 fingers.

So the 18th century composers generally wrote more quartets (M. Haydn is said to have also written more quartets than quintets, btw, but the authorship of some of the quartet works isn't clear), the quartet also sort of became the "icon" in the minds when musicians of the 19th/20th centuries thought of string chamber music. And as you pointed out, professional string chamber music players formed in groups by quartets, so it would have been "normal" for composers to write in the quartet format, unless they absolutely felt the need to write in other formats. But anyway the whole genre (the practice of composing in the format) sort of "waned" in the 19th century, before its "resurgence" in the modern Neoclassical era.
And as I said, it wasn't like modern composers such as Carter absolutely had to write for the quartet instead of the quintet or the sextet to express their "ideas" to the fullest. Do you honestly think if Ferneyhough or Feldman were told to write for the quintet or sextet instead of the quartet, they would responded "NO! Over my dead body! The QUARTET is the ONLY WAY!" (Would it have really mattered for them anyway?)


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## Waehnen

hammeredklavier said:


> The 4-part voice-leading, which was the fundamental basis of 18th century musical thinking, might have prompted the composers to choose the quartet as the most bread-and-butter format in string chamber music by default. It may not be the best analogy, but the fact that humans count by decimals has to do with the fact they have 10 fingers.
> 
> So the 18th century composers generally wrote more quartets (M. Haydn is said to have also written more quartets than quintets, btw, but the authorship of some of the quartet works isn't clear), the quartet also sort of became the "icon" in the minds when musicians of the 19th/20th centuries thought of string chamber music. And as you pointed out, professional string chamber music players formed in groups by quartets, so it would have been "normal" for composers to write in the quartet format, unless they absolutely felt the need to write in other formats. (but anyway the whole genre sort of "waned" in the 19th century, before its "resurgence" in the modern Neoclassical era).


One indirect evidence of the great status of the string quartet is the pressure Brahms felt after Beethoven. He took his string quartet writing so seriously that to a certain extent, shot himself in the leg. Brahms´personality comes through better in the other chamber music genres -- where the comparison to Beethoven wasn´t as necessary and he trusted his melodic talents and expressive powers more.

It must be true that the string quartet is a very balanced medium. Make a comparison to, say, a quartet of double bass, cello, viola and violin, and you can easily "hear" that the overall sound and the "clear tessitura space" allowed for each instrument would not be as balanced. Combine that with the chorale type of polyphonic writing and you get to see that yes, the string quartet is the bread and butter of chamber music. Once it got established socially as a typical performing music group, the composers got commissions, which resulted in a larger ouvre, which resulted in further establishment... And so forth.


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## tdc

I think the Mozart and Brahms string quintets sound better than their string quartets, Schubert's most famous chamber work is probably his string quintet. It is a little curious the format hasn't caught on more.


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## SanAntone

*What is the greatest string quintet?*

One still to be written.


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## Kreisler jr

Waehnen said:


> Once it got established socially as a typical performing music group, the composers got commissions, which resulted in a larger ouvre, which resulted in further establishment... And so forth.


I think the establishment as a kind of standard was the main reason, and even more that there were professional quartet ensembles. We touched this briefly in the "weekly quartet" thread when Arensky's quartet with violin, viola, two celli was up. 
This also answers the suggestion about Carter etc. that they would not have been bound by traditional ensembles. 
Such composers might write something for a timbrally more interesting ensemble (like Le marteau sans maitre, or (although this was accidental due to the circumstances) Q pour la fin du temps) but it's far more likely to get a professional quartet perform one's very difficult avantgarde music than a nonstandard pure string ensemble of 5 or 6 players.

Nevertheless, I also think that there are surprisingly few famous/great string quintets in the mid-late 19th and early 20th century.


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## Waehnen

Kreisler jr said:


> This also answers the suggestion about Carter etc. that they would not have been bound by traditional ensembles.
> Such composers might write something for a timbrally more interesting ensemble (like Le marteau sans maitre, or (although this was accidental due to the circumstances) Q pour la fin du temps) but it's far more likely to get a professional quartet perform one's very difficult avantgarde music than a nonstandard pure string ensemble of 5 or 6 players.


Even nowadays when there´s a performance of a string trio, it is performed by a String Quartet minus one player. When there is performance of a string quintet, it is performed by a String Quartet plus extra player. String Sextets are performed by a String Quartet plus two extra players. String Octets are performed by two String Quartets.

That sure is a sign of Establishment! Only Vocalist + Piano and Piano Trios are on the same page of the book, although not quite on the same level. Far behind come Woodwind Quartets and Quintets etc.


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## Kreisler jr

Yes, there are a few exceptions of regularly performing variable quintet to nonet or so ensemble, such as the British Raphael, Nash or Melos Ensembles, or the German Villa Musica or Linos, or the chamber ensembles of professional orchestras such as the Boston symphony chamber players or Berliner Solisten. But most of the time it is as you describe.


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