# Praise be! - I'm converted...



## Tallisman (May 7, 2017)

After months (nay, years) of dogmatic avoidance and laziness, I have wrestled the Wagnerian python like Leighton's athlete. 

Let me tell you, transfiguration has been mine, friends, after fully sinking my thirsty fangs into the life-giving fruits of Tristan und Isolde - rarely have the hairs on my arm stood as perpendicular to my goosebump'd flesh. My appetite is whetted... more verklärung awaits. Now arises the question of recordings...


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

When your hairs have subsided and the thirst of your fangs has been slaked, we will talk recordings. Meanwhile, mazel tov and _hochste __lust_ be with you.


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

Just listen to the Vorspiel of _Parsifal _and you'll be hooked.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

nina foresti said:


> Just listen to the Vorspiel of _Parsifal _and you'll be hooked.


You should warn him that getting hooked on _Parsifal_ is a four-and-one-half-hour commitment (without intermissions). But if he's really hooked, as I was, time and space will simply disappear and he'll need another half-hour to remember who and where he is.


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

Welcome to the world of Wagnerians 
You have many wonders and adventures ahead of you.
There are great Wagner threads here.
Or just ask and you shall receive 
Welcome !!!


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

Another poor soul vanishes down the rabbit hole. Weh, ach weh!


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## Tallisman (May 7, 2017)

Barbebleu said:


> Another poor soul vanishes down the rabbit hole. Weh, ach weh!


I'm no stranger to obsessive cultural rabbit holes... I've been down the Brucknerian one for months, and a cosy space it's been too. Something tells me Wagner's is deeper and darker, though.


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## Tallisman (May 7, 2017)

Apropos Parsifal, is Kna '62 a good bet? I like live sound, and from the snippets I've heard, it sounds like it was well-recorded despite the coughs which don't actually bother me. I'm a sucker for Kna in most everything else, too.


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## Reichstag aus LICHT (Oct 25, 2010)

Barbebleu said:


> Another poor soul vanishes down the rabbit hole.


Vanishes down the Schwefelkluft, surely?


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

Tallisman said:


> Apropos Parsifal, is Kna '62 a good bet? I like live sound, and from the snippets I've heard, it sounds like it was well-recorded despite the coughs which don't actually bother me. I'm a sucker for Kna in most everything else, too.


Yes, this '62 recording is considered the live one to have. It's stereo too.









For a studio recording we recommend this Kubelik recording.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

I have barely experienced this opera, watched one DVD and listened to this CD:









I also have a Furtwangler set, but am eyeballing the Bernstein set with Behrens. Sadly that one is very expensive.


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

^^^^The Bernstein is extremely slow. Just to let you know.
I'd stick with Bohm and Furtwangler until you really know the work.
Just imho. :tiphat:


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## Granate (Jun 25, 2016)

Tallisman said:


> Apropos Parsifal, is Kna '62 a good bet? I like live sound, and from the snippets I've heard, it sounds like it was well-recorded despite the coughs which don't actually bother me. I'm a sucker for Kna in most everything else, too.


The 62 live recording is my favourite stereo Parsifal, although in my *Mono Parsifal challenge* I adressed all the 50s performances and came up with particular favourites. He owned the opera like no one else.

Why not 62? I don't like the cast as much as the ones in the 50s. Not apologetic for disliking Jess Thomas.



Granate said:


> *Year**ASIN**Label**Conductor**Parsifal**Gurnemanz**Amfortas**Titurel**Kundry*1951B00007FKPYNaxosKnappertsbuschWindgassenWeberLondonvan MillMödl1952B00EYRT4XYAndromedaKnappertsbuschWindgassenWeberLondonBöhmeMödl1953B002ZF2IQMAndromedaKraussVinayWeberLondonGreindlMödl1954OD 10487-4OperadepotKnappertsbuschWindgassenGreindlHotterAdamMödl1956B000LP5DSIWalhallKnappertsbuschVinayGreindlF-DieskauHotterMödl1957B0010V3M3KWalhallKnappertsbuschVinayGreindlLondonvan MillMödl1958B000H5VEL2AndromedaKnappertsbuschBeirerHinesWächterGreindlCrespin1959B0035LXVN4WalhallKnappertsbuschBeirerHinesWächterGreindlMödl1960B004JESNMUMYTOKnappertsbuschBeirerGreindlStewartWardCrespin1961B006FNN7UQMYTOKnappertsbuschThomasHotterLondonWeberDalis1962B000FVHGZGPhilipsKnappertsbuschThomasHotterLondonTalvelaDalis1963OD 10694-4OperadepotKnappertsbuschWindgassenHotterLondonBöhmeDalis1964B000UJC7WUOrfeoKnappertsbuschVickersHotterStewartHagenauEricson1965OD 10822-4OperadepotCluytensThomasHotterAdamTalvelaVarnay1966Out of PrintMelodramBoulezKónyaGreindlStewartBöhmeVarnay1967OD 11642-4OperadepotBoulezKingCrassStewartRidderbuschLudwig1968OD 10781-4OperadepotSteinCoxCrassStewartRidderbuschShuard1969OD 11649-4OperadepotSteinKingCrassStewartRidderbuschJones1970B000009JNIDGGBoulezKingCrassStewartRidderbuschJones1971Out of PrintMelodramJochumKónyaCrassStewartRidderbuschMartin1972OD 11404-4OperadepotJochumKingCrassAdamSotinMartin1973Released?YT LinkJochumCoxMazuraMcIntyreSotinMartin
> 
> If you didn't notice, yes, Hans Hotter plays Amfortas in 1954.





Granate said:


> Leaving music aside: does anybody notice that between each of the acts (two tracks following in the same disc) the coughs fit? I mean, the same coughs of the end of Act I continue in Act II, and similar between Act II and III.
> Was this part from a rehearsal? It wouldn't happen if it was live with real audience, because there would be a jump, I suppose.
> 
> What do you know or think about the coughs? Two things come to my mind. One is a superhuman achievement and the second implies Philips cheating.
> ...





Barbebleu said:


> I believe that among the cognoscenti this Parsifal is known as the 'Parsifal of the Dying Audience.' :lol:


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## Reichstag aus LICHT (Oct 25, 2010)

Itullian said:


> ^^^^The Bernstein is extremely slow. Just to let you know.
> I'd stick with Bohm and Furtwangler until you really know the work.


Agreed, although if Fritz Kobus wants a third recording he could do worse than getting the Carlos Kleiber set with René Kollo and Margaret Price as the protagonists. With splendid performances from a fine cast, it's still arguably the best digital recording of this work, even though it was recorded more than 35 years ago.


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## Tallisman (May 7, 2017)

Reichstag aus LICHT said:


> Agreed, although if Fritz Kobus wants a third recording he could do worse than getting the Carlos Kleiber set with René Kollo and Margaret Price as the protagonists. With splendid performances from a fine cast, it's still arguably the best digital recording of this work, even though it was recorded more than 35 years ago.


I've heard Kleiber's conducting and Price's singing particularly acclaimed on that recording, but there seems to be a consensus that the rest of the cast isn't quite up to scratch?


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## Tallisman (May 7, 2017)

I've decided to get the Karajan Ring, because I think (at the moment at least) I'd prefer to start the Ring journey with something lush and smooth. The idea of Culshaw sound effects doesn't appeal to me greatly, despite the vast acclaim for the Solti. I considered getting the Bohm Bayreuth Ring but I heard some extracts and the brass seemed a little piercing, most likely due to the recording. I wouldn't mind those small defects in a symphony recording, say, but when it's 16+ hours... well, you know...


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## Reichstag aus LICHT (Oct 25, 2010)

Tallisman said:


> I've heard Kleiber's conducting and Price's singing particularly acclaimed on that recording, but there seems to be a consensus that the rest of the cast isn't quite up to scratch?


Kleiber and Price are superb, but I also feel that you'd have to go a long way to find a better Brangäne and Marke than Brigitte Fassbaender and Kurt Moll. I also rather enjoy the older Dietrich Fischer-Dieskau as Kurwenal; ever sensitive and sympathetic, his performance here makes interesting listening alongside his younger assumption of the role for Knappertsbusch (I always feel that Kurwenal should be rather older than Tristan, although it rarely happens that way). Finally, although he's not everyone's cup of tea, I've always liked René Kollo, and I think he acquits himself very well here.


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## Tallisman (May 7, 2017)

Reichstag aus LICHT said:


> Kleiber and Price are superb, but I also feel that you'd have to go a long way to find a better Brangäne and Marke than Brigitte Fassbaender and Kurt Moll. I also rather enjoy the older Dietrich Fischer-Dieskau as Kurwenal; ever sensitive and sympathetic, his performance here makes interesting listening alongside his younger assumption of the role for Knappertsbusch (I always feel that Kurwenal should be rather older than Tristan, although it rarely happens that way). Finally, although he's not everyone's cup of tea, I've always liked René Kollo, and I think he acquits himself very well here.


Yes, I love Fischer-Dieskau's voice, even if it lacked the necessary operatic power in his career at times. That seems to be a criticism of Karajan's Rheingold in which DFD is cast as Wotan; apparently he is simply not up for it, but I have to say it was actually a selling point for me, especially seeing as Rheingold isn't necessarily the make-or-break opera in the cycle (Wagner seemed to view it more as an epilogue to the Ring).


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Tallisman said:


> I've heard Kleiber's conducting and Price's singing particularly acclaimed on that recording, but there seems to be a consensus that the rest of the cast isn't quite up to scratch?


I'm something of a naysayer regarding this recording. Price is lovely, but small-voiced and clearly amplified to keep her audible. Kollo's tone is smallish, pallid and whiny. They're a distinctly undersized pair of protagonists. Fischer-Dieskau is a bit over the hill vocally and sometimes overemphatic in compensation; he was excellent for Furtwangler in '52. Only Fassbaender and Moll don't disappoint. Kleiber provides beautifully refined playing and plenty of thrust, and is always interesting, though a few of his tempo choices don't persuade me. It's definitely a modern conception, and I'm an old-fashioned Teutonophile when it comes to Wagner. On the whole this comes across to me as a product of the recording studio, not as a real event.


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

Tallisman said:


> I've decided to get the Karajan Ring, because I think (at the moment at least) I'd prefer to start the Ring journey with something lush and smooth. The idea of Culshaw sound effects doesn't appeal to me greatly, despite the vast acclaim for the Solti. I considered getting the Bohm Bayreuth Ring but I heard some extracts and the brass seemed a little piercing, most likely due to the recording. I wouldn't mind those small defects in a symphony recording, say, but when it's 16+ hours... well, you know...


I think both the Solti and Boehm Rings are overrated, perhaps when they were the only versions available there was much to recommend them. Barenboim's live Bayreuth from the 90s surpassed them both and then you have the wonderful first stereo Ring in 1955. This later recording is also live from Bayreuth and comes in two versions as there were two cycles. This is considered by many to be the greatest Ring on disc, although the sound isn't as good as the Solti, Boehm or Barenboim.

I would suggest the Barenboim as the best starter Ring set.

N.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

Itullian said:


> ^^^^The Bernstein is extremely slow. Just to let you know.
> I'd stick with Bohm and Furtwangler until you really know the work.
> Just imho. :tiphat:


I see. So my habit of chasing a particular singer (Behrens) could get me into trouble, as it has in the past. I'll stick with Bohm for now and maybe give Furtwangler a listen since I have it in a Wagner opera set.


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## Reichstag aus LICHT (Oct 25, 2010)

Woodduck said:


> I'm something of a naysayer regarding this recording. Price is lovely, but small-voiced and clearly amplified to keep her audible. Kollo's tone is smallish, pallid and whiny. They're a distinctly undersized pair of protagonists... this comes across to me as a product of the recording studio, not as a real event.


If we need a recording studio to capture a beautifully voiced, _young_ Isolde with Lieder sensibilities thrown in, then I'm all for it. If anything, the "smallness" of Price and Kollo makes the _auditory_ experience somehow more authentic than most Tristan/Isolde pairings give us, whether live or in the studio. Much as I love the Furtwängler* recording, for example, Flagstad and Suthaus come across as distinctly middle-aged, and they're not unique in that respect.

(* Sorry, I said Knappertsbusch yesterday, when I meant Furtwängler; two fave Wagner conductors I sometimes mix up.)


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## Merl (Jul 28, 2016)

OT: Just don't mention Hitler.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Reichstag aus LICHT said:


> If we need a recording studio to capture a beautifully voiced, _young_ Isolde with Lieder sensibilities thrown in, then I'm all for it. If anything, the "smallness" of Price and Kollo makes the _auditory_ experience somehow more authentic than most Tristan/Isolde pairings give us, whether live or in the studio. Much as I love the Furtwängler* recording, for example, Flagstad and Suthaus come across as distinctly middle-aged, and they're not unique in that respect.
> 
> (* Sorry, I said Knappertsbusch yesterday, when I meant Furtwängler; two fave Wagner conductors I sometimes mix up.)


It's true that most Tristans and Isoldes don't sound like the teenagers they probably would have been in medieval times. But this is not simply the medieval story transcribed, and Wagner was no teenager when he fell for Mathilde Wesendonck. Given that, and his immersion in Schopenhauer, it isn't surprising that the music of _Tristan_ is emphatically not the music of young love, and the introverted, convoluted dialogue is not the talk of young lovers. Such a dark exploration of eros and thanatos is light years from Romeo and Juliet. The auditory experience of this score doesn't evoke youth to me at all as, say, Siegfried's or even Parsifal's act one music does, and Tristan's third-act monologue feels like a mid-life crisis.

I do enjoy the lovely interpretation of Price, and I'd enjoy it more if I couldn't actually _hear_ that the lovers' voices weren't the "real thing." But I do hear it, and am aware that the recording doesn't succeed in making their modest-sized voices sound up to the job (as, say, Bjorling really does sound up to Calaf, a role he wouldn't have been capable of in the opera house). I don't like to feel tricked.

As less "matronly" Isoldes go, I'd like to have heard Frida Leider (her live Liebestod is fabulous), and Flagstad in her prime left little to be desired.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Merl said:


> OT: Just don't mention Hitler.


Always good to follow one's own advice.


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## Granate (Jun 25, 2016)

Woodduck said:


> Such a dark exploration of eros and thanatos is light years from Romeo and Juliet. The auditory experience of this score doesn't evoke youth to me at all as, say, Siegfried's or even Parsifal's act one music does, and Tristan's third-act monologue feels like a mid-life crisis.


I don't want to nitpick your argument as other do in this kind of discussions. I just think that in my early twenties I can relate more to the lovers' suffering, passion and death than a young man being revealed the way to redemtion and recovery of the Holy Spear. I think many young people of my age (not talking about teenagers) can relate much more to the torment, contradictions and self-doubts of _Tristan und Isolde_ than the enrapturing _Parsifal_ story.

I just feel that I should view the Grail opera from Gürnemanz's point of view instead of the title character. Because I think I still don't relate a lot to the opera story because of my age and lack of experience in dealing with both social and my own suffering. And if I had to introduce my colleagues to the world of Wagner, the Ring and Tristan would be the most important steps. I can't relate the second act to a mid-life crisis, but already similar to the stories people of my age are living.


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

Granate said:


> I don't want to nitpick your argument as other do in this kind of discussions. I just think that in my early twenties I can relate more to the lovers' suffering, passion and death than a young man being revealed the way to redemtion and recovery of the Holy Spear. I think many young people of my age (not talking about teenagers) can relate much more to the torment, contradictions and self-doubts of _Tristan und Isolde_ than the enrapturing _Parsifal_ story.
> 
> I just feel that I should view the Grail opera from Gürnemanz's point of view instead of the title character. Because I think I still don't relate a lot to the opera story because of my age and lack of experience in dealing with both social and my own suffering. And if I had to introduce my colleagues to the world of Wagner, the Ring and Tristan would be the most important steps. I can't relate the second act to a mid-life crisis, but already similar to the stories people of my age are living.


Oh to be in my twenties again. Getting old(er) is not for the faint-hearted! I wasted time and now doth time waste me.:lol:


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Granate said:


> I don't want to nitpick your argument as other do in this kind of discussions. I just think that in my early twenties I can relate more to the lovers' suffering, passion and death than a young man being revealed the way to redemtion and recovery of the Holy Spear. I think many young people of my age (not talking about teenagers) can relate much more to the torment, contradictions and self-doubts of _Tristan und Isolde_ than the enrapturing _Parsifal_ story.
> 
> I just feel that I should view the Grail opera from Gürnemanz's point of view instead of the title character. Because I think I still don't relate a lot to the opera story because of my age and lack of experience in dealing with both social and my own suffering. And if I had to introduce my colleagues to the world of Wagner, the Ring and Tristan would be the most important steps. I can't relate the second act to a mid-life crisis, but already similar to the stories people of my age are living.


Your perspective might be shared by a majority of younger people. My experience was the opposite: I understood (on an emotional level) Parsifal's quest for self-transformation more readily than I could identify with T & I's overwhelming desire to lose themselves in passion, which frankly I still don't identify with. But my point is that these experiences are not confined to youth, and that Wagner's characters are archetypes of basic human traits which transcend age.


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## aussiebushman (Apr 21, 2018)

Fritz Kobus said:


> I see. So my habit of chasing a particular singer (Behrens) could get me into trouble, as it has in the past. I'll stick with Bohm for now and maybe give Furtwangler a listen since I have it in a Wagner opera set.


I'd be inclined to put it around the other way - meaning not so much chasing a favorite singer but rather avoiding those you actively dislike, especially if their role is central to the entire opera. Personally, I dislike Kollo's voice so if there are interpretations by other singers, I would let that influence my choice.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Tallisman said:


> I've heard Kleiber's conducting and Price's singing particularly acclaimed on that recording, but there seems to be a consensus that the rest of the cast isn't quite up to scratch?


Kleiber'sTristan is pretty light and fleet. Price's singing is glorious if you can accept it's a microphone job of a role she never sung in the theatre - but then so was Domingo's of Tristan! Kollo is a bit thin and D F-D embarrassingly past his best.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Tallisman said:


> Yes, I love Fischer-Dieskau's voice, even if it lacked the necessary operatic power in his career at times. That seems to be a criticism of Karajan's Rheingold in which DFD is cast as Wotan; apparently he is simply not up for it, but I have to say it was actually a selling point for me, especially seeing as Rheingold isn't necessarily the make-or-break opera in the cycle (Wagner seemed to view it more as an epilogue to the Ring).


As recorded here D F-D is fine as long as you don't have the preconception of the traditional Wagner cannon as Wotan. As my interest in Wagner lies mainly in the orchestra I find Karajan's BPO superb.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Granate said:


> I can't relate the second act to a mid-life crisis, but already similar to the stories people of my age are living.


Mid life crisis? Tristan is a young man or supposed to be. Maybe it was Wagner's own mid-life crisis with Mathilde Wesendonck that is projected into the opera. Or maybe as artists who perform Tristan are usually middle aged themselves (of necessity) we see the character from a middle aged point of view.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

DavidA said:


> Mid life crisis? Tristan is a young man or supposed to be. Maybe it was Wagner's own mid-life crisis with Mathilde Wesendonck that is projected into the opera. Or maybe as artists who perform Tristan are usually middle aged themselves (of necessity) we see the character from a middle aged point of view.


Tristan's age is really irrelevant, isn't it? I see nothing in the opera that requires him to be of a particular age. If we need to be literalists (but why _do_ we?) middle age in Medieval times was probably around twenty-seven, and King Marke would have been old at forty-five. All this obsessing about age and singers looking the theoretical age of their characters is pointless and silly.


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## JAS (Mar 6, 2013)

DavidA said:


> Mid life crisis? Tristan is a young man or supposed to be. Maybe it was Wagner's own mid-life crisis with Mathilde Wesendonck that is projected into the opera. Or maybe as artists who perform Tristan are usually middle aged themselves (of necessity) we see the character from a middle aged point of view.


Wagner died at 69. In that case, 30 would not be too young for a mid-life crisis.


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## JAS (Mar 6, 2013)

Woodduck said:


> Tristan's age is really irrelevant, isn't it? I see nothing in the opera that requires him to be of a particular age. If we need to be literalists (but why _do_ we?) middle age in Medieval times was probably around twenty-seven, and King Marke would have been old at forty-five. All this obsessing about age and singers looking the theoretical age of their characters is pointless and silly.


Suddenly we are demanding plausible details . . . in grand opera.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

JAS said:


> Suddenly we are demanding plausible details . . . in grand opera.


perhaps it's the romantic in me but even in the most ridiculous form of theatre that is opera I do look for certain credible details, such as a supposedly beautiful woman does look reasonable or a handsome young knight is not built like Falstaff. When people say these things don't matter I just wonder how much sense of theatre they have.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

JAS said:


> Wagner died at 69. In that case, 30 would not be too young for a mid-life crisis.


Psychologically not plausible. Wagner's age at around 45 when he wrote Tristan is about right.


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## JAS (Mar 6, 2013)

DavidA said:


> Psychologically not plausible. Wagner's age at around 45 when he wrote Tristan is about right.


A mid-life crisis need only be somewhere between birth and an awareness of our mortality.


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## JAS (Mar 6, 2013)

DavidA said:


> perhaps it's the romantic in me but even in the most ridiculous form of theatre that is opera I do look for certain credible details, such as a supposedly beautiful woman does look reasonable or a handsome young knight is not built like Falstaff. When people say these things don't matter I just wonder how much sense of theatre they have.


I am thinking of the ridiculous plot requirements for grand opera. For Turandot, we are supposed to believe that the hero falls in love with what is clearly a pretty horrible person, and that she is suddenly redeemed . . . by love.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

JAS said:


> A mid-life crisis need only be somewhere between birth and an awareness of our mortality.


That is not how a mid life crisis is defined.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

JAS said:


> I am thinking of the ridiculous plot requirements for grand opera. For Turandot, we are supposed to believe that the hero falls in love with what is clearly a pretty horrible person, and that she is suddenly redeemed . . . by love.


We are also expected to belive she is the most beautiful woman ever which if you look at certain singers who have taken the part - mentioning no names - does stretch credibility. However I prefer not to have my credibility stretched too far. That is why with Wagner I find audio generally preferable.


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## JAS (Mar 6, 2013)

DavidA said:


> That is not how a mid life crisis is defined.


Why not? I have been having mine for about 40 years now. I am just beginning to get good at it.


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## JAS (Mar 6, 2013)

DavidA said:


> We are also expected to belive she is the most beautiful woman ever which if you look at certain singers who have taken the part - mentioning no names - does stretch credibility. However I prefer not to have my credibility stretched too far. That is why with Wagner I find audio generally preferable.


It does help just to focus on the beauty of the voices. Plus you can put it on hold for a meal or the occasional bathroom break.


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## lextune (Nov 25, 2016)

If and when you get to the Ring, I highly recommend the Barenboim/Kupfer DVD/BluRay.

It is, in my opinion, the best mix of high quality audio, and singers, there is available on video. Tomlinson and Evans are as good a Wotan/Brunnhilde as you'll find. I think Evans avoids the shrieking that many Brunnhildes' subject us to quite nicely. And Tomlinson has moments, that for me, are as great a Wotan/Wanderer as have ever been captured, (The start of Act III of Siegfried jumps to mind, ["Wache, Wala! Wala, erwach'!"])

Lastly; Siegfried Jerusalem does a admirable job as Siegfried, (a basically impossible role, imo).


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

lextune said:


> If and when you get to the Ring, I highly recommend the Barenboim/Kupfer DVD/BluRay.
> 
> It is, in my opinion, the best mix of high quality audio, and singers, there is available on video. Tomlinson and Evans are as good a Wotan/Brunnhilde as you'll find. I think Evans avoids the shrieking that many Brunnhildes' subject us to quite nicely. And Tomlinson has moments, that for me, are as great a Wotan/Wanderer as have ever been captured, (The start of Act III of Siegfried jumps to mind, ["Wache, Wala! Wala, erwach'!"])
> 
> Lastly; Siegfried Jerusalem does a admirable job as Siegfried, (a basically impossible role, imo).


Yes I have this. Might be the best all-round DVD though the celebrated Bayreuth version conducted by Boulez is really well directed.


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

Woodduck said:


> Tristan's age is really irrelevant, isn't it? I see nothing in the opera that requires him to be of a particular age. If we need to be literalists (but why _do_ we?) middle age in Medieval times was probably around twenty-seven, and King Marke would have been old at forty-five. All this obsessing about age and singers looking the theoretical age of their characters is pointless and silly.


And yet I wouldn't mind betting that the perfect age for Donna Anna or the Countess in Figaro is exactly the age of the diva playing her at that precise moment!

N.


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

DavidA said:


> We are also expected to belive she is the most beautiful woman ever which if you look at certain singers who have taken the part - mentioning no names - does stretch credibility. However I prefer not to have my credibility stretched too far. That is why with Wagner I find audio generally preferable.


However aesthetics changes according to time and place and who knows what was considered _beautiful_ in China in a legendary past.

N.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

The Conte said:


> And yet I wouldn't mind betting that the perfect age for Donna Anna or the Countess in Figaro is exactly the age of the diva playing her at that precise moment!
> 
> N.


In actual fact both would still be young. Donna Anna is a young, unmarried woman being courted by a nobleman. Note also that Don Giovanni is described as a 'licentious *young* nobleman'. And as the marriage of Figaro takes place just three years after the barber of Seville then the Countess would still be a young woman


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

The Conte said:


> However aesthetics changes according to time and place and who knows what was considered _beautiful_ in China in a legendary past.
> 
> N.


The problem is that it was written for a late 19th century audience. And on HD has to relate to a 21st century one. This is not obsessing about things but seeking to relate to a modern audience and how they see things. The days of the fat lady singing are numbered! See this interview with Marilyn Horne about what she calls 'Big Berthas'

https://www.politico.com/states/new...ew-generation-for-a-very-different-art-000000


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

Seeing as there are too many singers these days who can't hit all the notes in the score and even when they do there's often very little in the way of characterisation, I'm far more concerned whether a singer can sing or not rather than whether they look like a model or not.

N.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

The Conte said:


> Seeing as there are too many singers these days who can't hit all the notes in the score and even when they do there's often very little in the way of characterisation, I'm far more concerned whether a singer can sing or not rather than whether they look like a model or not.
> 
> N.


When I see an opera it's also important that the characters approximate to what the libretto says they are. I would have thought anyone interested in dramatic art would see this


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

DavidA said:


> The days of the fat lady singing are numbered!


That sounds threatening.

Just for some historical perspective, photos of leading opera singers from 100 years ago don't reveal a higher rate of obesity than we see now, and probably a lower one. Famous Wagnerian sopranos - the "fat ladies" who sing at the end of the opera - such as Lilli Lehmann, Nanny Larsen Todsen, Frida Leider, Marjorie Lawrence, Marta Fuchs, Germaine Lubin, Kirsten Flagstad, Birgit Nilsson, Astrid Varnay and Martha Modl - may have been full-figured or sturdily built, but for most of their careers they weren't really fat. The reputation of singers for girth was acquired at a time when most people were slim, as compared to today when over two-thirds of Americans are considered obese. A number of today's leading singers are girthier than any of the ladies listed above.

I'd say that opera singers on the whole are in better shape than most of us.


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## Larkenfield (Jun 5, 2017)

It's not a _start_ until "the fat lady sings". I'd get a kick out of hearing a great-sounding 250-pound _Carmen_ in a performance sponsored by Weight Watchers. She'd have to beguile Don José with the sound of her voice. Heavy applause at the end.


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

DavidA said:


> When I see an opera it's also important that the characters approximate to what the libretto says they are. I would have thought anyone interested in dramatic art would see this


What if the libretto just says Character X _soprano_.

N.


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## Bonetan (Dec 22, 2016)

Woodduck said:


> That sounds threatening.
> 
> Just for some historical perspective, photos of leading opera singers from 100 years ago don't reveal a higher rate of obesity than we see now, and probably a lower one. Famous Wagnerian sopranos - the "fat ladies" who sing at the end of the opera - such as Lilli Lehmann, Nanny Larsen Todsen, Frida Leider, Marjorie Lawrence, Marta Fuchs, Germaine Lubin, Kirsten Flagstad, Birgit Nilsson, Astrid Varnay and Martha Modl - may have been full-figured or sturdily built, but for most of their careers they weren't really fat. The reputation of singers for girth was acquired at a time when most people were slim, as compared to today when over two-thirds of Americans are considered obese. A number of today's leading singers are girthier than any of the ladies listed above.
> 
> I'd say that opera singers on the whole are in better shape than most of us.


This is correct. There are more fat opera singers now than ever.


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