# How would you define classical music?



## muzik (May 16, 2013)

How would you define classical music? 

What are the criteria to qualify a piece as being "classical"?


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## Weston (Jul 11, 2008)

Like progressive rock, it has no finite definition, but to me it is a spectrum. There are certain attributes that classical might have and if a piece has more of these attributes it is closer to what we think of as classical than a piece that has less of the them. Those attributes might be (but not necessarily):

1. It is composed rather than improvised. 
2. It uses instruments we traditionally associate with classical (violins, cellos, pianos) though I'd rather this tradition be broken more, as it is too limiting.
3. Its merits have withstood the test of time.
4. Its intent is to be appreciated on many levels, with more wonders revealed on closer scrutiny.
5. It draws inspiration primarily from the traditions of Western academic music.
6. It may not aspire toward immediate commercial appeal.

And on and on. A classical piece MAY have none of these attributes, but the more it has, the easier it is to point to and say it is classical.

Actually I love the ambiguity of it all.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

This has been beaten to death -- many times! And with no clear outcomes. My definition: "It's like, you know, _that _stuff, not like all the other stuff."


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## ptr (Jan 22, 2013)

KenOC said:


> This has been beaten to death -- many times! And with no clear outcomes. My definition: "It's like, you know, _that _stuff, not like all the other stuff."


darned, You beat me to it! :tiphat:

/ptr


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## Kieran (Aug 24, 2010)

Well, the term _classical_ _music_ also only covers music of a certain period. I think about 1750-1830. Before this was Baroque music and after was Romantic. We tend to use Classical as a catch-all term, though I don't know why...


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

*All that music which is not pop, ethnic, or jazz.*

i.e. Non-Pop music.

...fine art vs. popular or more commercial art.


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## Taggart (Feb 14, 2013)

Kieran said:


> Well, the term _classical_ _music_ also only covers music of a certain period. I think about 1750-1830. Before this was Baroque music and after was Romantic. We tend to use Classical as a catch-all term, though I don't know why...


That's the so-called Common Practice period which contains the Classical period and is contained in Classical Music which (really) runs from the 10th Century through to the present day.

The whole thing's a complete mess - there's the question of temperament; what about older instruments - bagpipe, shawm, sh*gbut, hurdy gurdy and forms such as the musette.

Basically, it's nice music, with lots of complicated forms, good players. A little ambiguity never hurt anyone, so let's enjoy the music!


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## Picander (May 8, 2013)

I don't know, all music I like become classical for me.


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

Picander said:


> I don't know, all music I like become classical for me.


*There goes the neighborhood!*


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## Guest (May 17, 2013)

I think TC member Eddie 'Are You Kidding' Varèse would define classical music as involving the use of a wig.


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## muzik (May 16, 2013)

Kieran said:


> Well, the term _classical_ _music_ also only covers music of a certain period. I think about 1750-1830. Before this was Baroque music and after was Romantic. We tend to use Classical as a catch-all term, though I don't know why...


Ok, but is it strictly used for "western" music?

Can we talk about Asian classical music or African classical music?


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## muzik (May 16, 2013)

Is it also the music where there is no part of improvisation whatsoever? 

By that I mean that the composer has written every single note, nothing can be added by the musician who interprets it. 

Unlike jazz or pop music where you can remove or add notes, classical music is an exact music...

These are just some thoughts!


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## niv (Apr 9, 2013)

Weston nailed it.

That said, some classical music has some elements of improvisation. And the musician that interprets the written note sometimes gives his or her own take on the notes, controlling the phrasing, balance of the voices, attack, etc; I believe this varies from piece to piece, some pieces are more defined and some offer more liberty. Take for instance the Art Of Fugue which doesn't even specify the instrument(s).


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Ad libitum ornamentation and even improvisation was expected of performers up until about 1800. It has made a significant comeback in the 20th century in even deeper and more structural ways. Hardly "exact" music.


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## Kieran (Aug 24, 2010)

muzik said:


> Ok, but is it strictly used for "western" music?
> 
> Can we talk about Asian classical music or African classical music?


Well, I can't, but you can...


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## muzik (May 16, 2013)

Weston said:


> Like progressive rock, it has no finite definition, but to me it is a spectrum. There are certain attributes that classical might have and if a piece has more of these attributes it is closer to what we think of as classical than a piece that has less of the them. Those attributes might be (but not necessarily):
> 
> 1. It is composed rather than improvised.
> 2. It uses instruments we traditionally associate with classical (violins, cellos, pianos) though I'd rather this tradition be broken more, as it is too limiting.
> ...


I see, thank you for the answer!


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## muzik (May 16, 2013)

Kieran said:


> Well, I can't, but you can...


I'm no expert.

I only know western classical music, I was wondering if in other continents they had the equivalent of what we call "classical music" and if it could indeed be called "classical music".


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## Kieran (Aug 24, 2010)

muzik said:


> I'm no expert.
> 
> I only know western classical music, I was wondering if in other continents they had the equivalent of what we call "classical music" and if it could indeed be called "classical music".


I'm no expert either, certainly wouldn't have a thing to say about non-western classical music. The thing I was saying with the dates, they reflect certain periods of music, Baroque, Classical, Romantic, Modernist, etc. But these all still get to be called classical music, whether this is fair or accurate or not.

To me, classical music is difficult to define. Any attempt would require an expert and might still be open to contradiction...


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## Taggart (Feb 14, 2013)

KenOC said:


> Ad libitum ornamentation and even improvisation was expected of performers up until about 1800. It has made a significant comeback in the 20th century in even deeper and more structural ways. Hardly "exact" music.


Don't know about the later stuff.

Yes, you can add ornamentation but it is all based on the underlying harmonies as written. Yes you can "improvise" especially in cadenzas. Yes you can "improvise" based on a continuo line but again respecting the harmonies. You can't suddenly stick in an unexpected trumpet solo 'cause it sounds good.

One of the points made about classical music is that by being written - in the main details - it defines the relationship of the "voices" - singers or instrumentalists - and thus allows a more developed (and structured) harmonic logic than would (normally) be possible in a free form improv session. I would probably absent a pair with a good working relationship from this - e.g. Aly Bain and Phil Cunningham for example.


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## Ingélou (Feb 10, 2013)

muzik said:


> I'm no expert.
> 
> I only know western classical music, I was wondering if in other continents they had the equivalent of what we call "classical music" and if it could indeed be called "classical music".


I have certainly heard 'Indian classical music' and I think 'Chinese classical music' too. The terms refer to the historic style of the elite classes, as against 'folk music', and it's a useful term for distinguishing this from Western music played by Indian & Chinese adepts, and serious music using their own style composed by contemporary Indian & Chinese musicians.


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## LordBlackudder (Nov 13, 2010)

*classical music* (Noun)

Classical music is a style of music which adheres to certain forms and uses complex techniques to produce expression.

Originating in 600 AD Classical music developed many ideas and formed the basis of all modern music.

Classical music is often used to portray emotion in theatre, dance, television, cinema, and other visual arts.

_Usage: Isn't Mozart a wonderful composer of classical music?_


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