# Milton Babbitt vs. Britney Spears



## Dim7

Who is superior, in your opinion?


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## TurnaboutVox

Dim7 said:


> Who is superior, in your opinion?


For what purpose, Dim7?


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## Dim7

Academic semantics, again!


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## TurnaboutVox

Dim7 said:


> Academic semantics, again!


It's not all that semantic. If we were considering who would be a superior dinner guest, for instance, one would have to say that despite his reputation as an interesting and articulate speaker, Babbitt's contributions would undoubtedly be limited by the fact of his demise in 2011. So Britney it would have to be, I'm sorry to say.


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## Dim7

What I meant was which of the two would be superior for academic semantics. IMO, Babbitt enganging in academic semantics would be not very surprising or interesting, so I voted for Britney.


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## TurnaboutVox

Actually Milton sounds like he would have been a more than decent dinner companion - Wikipedia says he was interested in beer, baseball (well, we could have had that baseball - cricket comparison conversation, I suppose), jazz and musical comedy.

Sorry where was I? Oh, yes Britney Spears and academic semantics. Yes.


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## Dr Johnson

I was hoping you meant which of them played the banjo best.


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## Guest

Sorry, couldn't resist voting in this one...!


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## Dr Johnson

I've given Britney the benefit of the doubt in the banjo stakes.


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## TurnaboutVox

I think Milton might have been quite handy on the old banjo...


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## Guest

I must say I had other attributes in mind than the ability to play the banjo.


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## Dr Johnson

TurnaboutVox said:


> I think Milton might have been quite handy on the old banjo...


These things are always tricky to call....


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## starthrower

Anyone that names their daughters Britney or Heather must certainly believe they're superior.


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## Mahlerian

Apparently, Babbitt wrote better classical music than Britney Spears. He also wrote better non-classical music than Britney Spears. As this is in the non-classical music forum, I went with the latter for my decision.


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## GreenMamba

Britney Spears is only 34 years old, so it's a bit unfair to judge her life's contributions yet. She's still developing as a composer.


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## Dim7

Mahlerian said:


> Apparently, Babbitt wrote better classical music than Britney Spears. He also wrote better non-classical music than Britney Spears. As this is in the non-classical music forum, I went with the latter for my decision.


Might it be possible to split the poll between the non-classical and classical forums so that to vote for Milton Babbitt you'd have to go to the Classical Music forum?


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## Weston

Babbitt by a landslide. There are plenty of ephemeral pretty girls. Heck, I'll even take Richard Thompson over the Mouseketeer any day.


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## Morimur

If this has anything to do with real, worthwhile talent—Babbitt.


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## Strange Magic

Babbitt--such a *******! Always whining that nobody ever came to listen to, let alone pay good money for, his and others' efforts at total serialism and such musics. It was always somebody else's fault that nobody cared. Such composers as himself with safe hideaways in university music departments should therefore just compose for one another, thus guaranteeing an audience minimum of two. At least Britney sorted herself out after her troubles, and now packs them in, in Vegas. Give the public what it wants, already.


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## Manxfeeder

Weston said:


> Babbitt by a landslide. There are plenty of ephemeral pretty girls.


But between the two, I think Britney would pull in more free drinks at a bar. (Which would be a plus if I embibed.)
And I think for a personal visit, her estate is more palatial.
She also has more money, so she would be taking me to a more distinguished place of cuisine.
And everyone would be dropping by our table, which means loads of selfies to load on Facebook. 
Then she would be absorbed by the celebrity dropins, and I could repair to a book of verse beneath the bough.

Mr. Babbitt could only show me the Columbia synthesizer, which I would remark is terribly outdated. He would then snort, "Who cares if you listen?" When I would retort he didn't come up with that line, that some journalist did, he would stomp out in a huff and leave me at the mercy of the Columbia undergrads.

So I think I'd vote Ms. B for a superior night out.


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## Sloe

GreenMamba said:


> Britney Spears is only 34 years old, so it's a bit unfair to judge her life's contributions yet. She's still developing as a composer.


She is 33 her birthday is in december.
Does Britney Spears write the music for her songs or only lyrics?

I know too little about both Babbitt and Spears to make a decision.


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## Mahlerian

Strange Magic said:


> Babbitt--such a *******! Always whining that nobody ever came to listen to, let alone pay good money for, his and others' efforts at total serialism and such musics. It was always somebody else's fault that nobody cared.


Uh...that's the exact opposite of what his famous article is saying.


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## GreenMamba

Sloe said:


> She is 33 her birthday is in december.
> Does Britney Spears write the music for her songs or only lyrics?
> 
> I know too little about both Babbitt and Spears to make a decision.


She didn't write her popular hits, but her most recent forays into spectralism are her own.


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## KenOC

Mahlerian said:


> Uh...that's the exact opposite of what his famous article is saying.


Not as I read it. "Deviation from this tradition is bound to dismiss the contemporary music of which I have been talking into "isolation." Nor do I see how or why the situation should be otherwise. Why should the layman be other than bored and puzzled by what he is unable to understand, music or anything else?"

Babbitt's famous article, short form:

Folks, music has developed a lot. With today's new and improved music, you've gotta be a pretty smart cookie and crammed with specialized learning, like me and my friends, to even tell it's music at all. But since almost no "normal" people are smart enough for that, maybe we'd better just play our music for each other and forget entirely about the unwashed "public."

Which makes for a problem. I mean, gotta pay the bills, buy the kids shoes, stuff like that. Well, we're really no different from rocket scientists, right? People pay them plenty with no idea at all what they do. So let's set up some cushy positions in the universities where we can do our thing without worrying about whether some ignorant yokel listens to the results. Put that in your pipe and smoke it, you overfed bourgeois buffoon who can only whistle diatonic tunes!

If we don't do what I suggest, music will surely stagnate and die. And you wouldn't want that on your conscience would you?

http://www.palestrant.com/babbitt.htm


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## Mahlerian

That's an incredibly awful twisted misreading of what he says that has nothing to do with the article or Babbitt or anything else. Are you unable to read his words without bias or something?


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## KenOC

Mahlerian said:


> That's an incredibly awful twisted misreading of what he says that has nothing to do with the article or Babbitt or anything else. Are you unable to read his words without bias or something?


 Actually I think it's pretty accurate. I ask others to read the article (if they can get through the look-I'm-a-college-professor verbiage) and post whether they think my summary is or isn't fair. The link:

http://www.palestrant.com/babbitt.htm


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## Mahlerian

KenOC said:


> Actually I think it's pretty accurate. I ask others to read the article (if they can get through the look-I'm-a-college-professor verbiage) and post whether they think my summary is or isn't fair. The link is given in the post!


You've poisoned the well already, along with taking Palestrant's "response" to it seriously. It makes the same mistake as you, taking Babbitt's self-deprecatory tone as sneering condescension. As for the words, that actually was the way Babbitt talked, not an affectation as you imply. From everything I've heard about him, his students loved him and looked up to him as an affable, charming man who would never criticize people for working in their own chosen style.


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## KenOC

All I know is what I read. I've never looked at Palestrant's response.

I'm sure Babbitt was a really nice guy, good to small children, didn't kick his dog, etc. But he wrote what he wrote.


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## Mahlerian

KenOC said:


> All I know is what I read. I've never looked at Palestrant's response.


I didn't say that you did. I said that you make the same error.


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## Weston

She's not without a certain cosmetic appeal. It's just that I am the wrong demographic for her musical aspirations, and quite a bit past the sell by date for asking her out.


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## KenOC

Weston said:


> She's not without a certain cosmetic appeal.


Well, I'm a septuagenarian and that's more than I could say about her competition!


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## Marschallin Blair

Weston said:


> She's not without a certain cosmetic appeal. It's just that I am the wrong demographic for her musical aspirations, and quite a bit past the sell by date for asking her out.


You're wrong- I'm over-the-hill at seventeen and she appeals to me.


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## Marschallin Blair

KenOC said:


> *Well, I'm a septuagenarian and that's more than I could say about her competition!*


I've never seen a guy in more dire need of a couch dance.


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## StlukesguildOhio

I've never seen a guy in more dire need of a couch dance.

Hahahahahahaha!

But what about Schoenberg?










Just imagine... a proper lap-dance might have led to an entire different... more sensual/less Puritan (?)... trajectory of 20th century music. :devil:


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## Richannes Wrahms

Don't complain, you all have Berg for that nonsense._ Leave Schoenberg alone!_


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## KenOC

Schoenberg was certainly a nationalistic fellow! "I have made a discovery which will ensure the supremacy of German music for the next hundred years." Not only did that prediction come to nothing, but a decade later he fled Germany in justifiable alarm.

In the 2014-2015 season, his works were programmed by major US orchestras just four times. Not one was a 12-tone composition.

Milton Babbitt wasn't programmed at all.


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## Woodduck

I just dropped in here and, by God, I don't know what you people are talking about, so I'm leaving.


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## Taggart

Thread repaired. Posts deleted.

Please be civil to your fellow members.

Live long and prosper.


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## Marschallin Blair

Woodduck said:


> I just dropped in here and, by God, I don't know what you people are talking about, so I'm leaving.


- _GöttinBritneySpears_ (Goddess Britney Spears)- that's what were talking about.

Her cute personality and sexy dancing means that she outshines the ponderous and leaden nonsense of Schoenberg and Babbitt.

Its a _Twilight of the Idles_, as it were.


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## Dim7

Schoenberg > Britney > Babbitt.


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## Marschallin Blair

Dim7 said:


> Schoenberg > Britney > Babbitt.


Callas > Marschallin > Britney . . . .

. . .

. . .

. . .

. . . and then, way down at the bottom of the Great Chain of Being, and painting all of Our toenails with a ten foot step ladder in order to help the little bald guys: Schoenberg and Babbitt.


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## Mahlerian

Marschallin Blair said:


> Her cute personality and sexy dancing means that she outshines the ponderous and leaden nonsense of Schoenberg and Babbitt.
> 
> Its a _Twilight of the Idles_, as it were.


Schoenberg's line, of course, is still going. Like his music, which never did or ever will be able to depend on flashy marketing or glamour-magazine looks, but thankfully, our culture is at least not shallow enough yet to think that that matters more than true beauty and substance.


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## Marschallin Blair

Mahlerian said:


> Schoenberg's line, of course, is still going. Like his music, which never did or ever will be able to depend on flashy marketing or glamour-magazine looks, but thankfully, our culture is at least not shallow enough yet to think that that matters more than true beauty and substance.


I'm only having a bit of fun with Schoenberg, Mahlerian, because Schoenberg could be so mean to some of his music students.

I think even a genius like Schoenberg is fair game when he has appalling manners.


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## Skilmarilion

I realise this is fun and games, but it feels like it needs to be said: Schoenberg probably (actually, certainly) had more talent and genius in the tip of his little finger than 1 Billion Britney Spears would ever have in their entire bodies.

Haven't heard any Babbitt, but don't think I'd even need to before inserting his name for Schoenberg's above. :tiphat:

However, if we consider Xenakis ... then we've got a competition on our hands.


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## Marschallin Blair

Skilmarilion said:


> I realise this is fun and games, but it feels like it needs to be said: Schoenberg probably (actually, certainly) had more talent and genius in the tip of his little finger than 1 Billion Britney Spears would ever have in their entire bodies.
> 
> Haven't heard any Babbitt, but don't think I'd even need to before inserting his name for Schoenberg's above. :tiphat:
> 
> However, if we consider Xenakis ... then we've got a competition on our hands.


What good is genius if its in the service of stillborn ugliness?

Britney doesn't need to be ingenious- its the job of others to be intelligent, and witty, and clever- and to entertain 'her.'

Her job is just to exude sex appeal and fun.


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## Mahlerian

Marschallin Blair said:


> I'm only having a bit of fun with Schoenberg, Mahlerian, because Schoenberg could be so mean to some of his music students.
> 
> I think even a genius like Schoenberg is fair game when he has appalling manners.




Most of his students loved and respected him. Who, other than Blitzstein, came out resentful rather than edified by a thorough grounding in the fundamentals of musical composition?

Babbitt, likewise, was loved by his students as a teacher who encouraged them even if their style was something that he didn't have much personal sympathy for.

Hindemith, on the other hand, forced his students to write like him.


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## Guest

Marschallin Blair said:


> What good is genius if its in the service of stillborn ugliness?
> 
> Britney doesn't need to be ingenious- its the job of others to be intelligent, and witty, and clever- and to entertain 'her.'
> 
> Her job is just to exude sex appeal and fun.


Who, other than you, says it's the "job" of others to entertain her?
And "exuding" doesn't actually constitute a job does it.
So yes, she is talentless. (Have you put 'her' in quotes because 'she' is actually a 'he'?)


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## StlukesguildOhio

Mahlerian- Like his music, which never did or ever will be able to depend on flashy marketing or glamour-magazine looks, but thankfully, our culture is at least not shallow enough yet to think that that matters more than true beauty and substance.

What qualifies as "true beauty"... or "substance"?


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## Mahlerian

StlukesguildOhio said:


> What qualifies as "true beauty"... or "substance"?


As far as composition is concerned...

Beauty lies in richness of color, melodic invention, harmonic variety that is effectively employed, among other things.

Substance lies in fullness of design, solidity of form, brilliance of conception, the apt use of effects to create global rather than local design, and so forth.

These are the things that distinguish a Bach, Mozart, Beethoven, Wagner, Debussy, Mahler, or Schoenberg from a Quantz, Dittersdorf, Czerny, Rubinstein, Boehe, or Hauer.


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## Marschallin Blair

Well, I still can't access the last page of this thread- but I'd like to reply to something someone said earlier on this thread.

I believe it was Dim7 who made the post I'm referring to, although I can't be sure since I can't currently access the last page of this thread to verify it.

So if it wasn't Dim7- I of course apologize in advance.

Dim7 (or whomever) asked me, if memory serves from earlier this afternoon:



> Who, other than you, says it's the "job of others to entertain her [i.e. Britney Spears].


Well, the rules aren't ' ' wri-ten. ' ' They're tacitly understood among equals.

Dim7 then said:



> And "exuding" doesn't actually constitute a job does it. [sic.]
> So yes, she is talentless.


When one's doors are opened for them and VIP cordons are automatically dropped- and one doesn't even have to use the Force to do it- then 'yes' this doesn't actually constitute a 'job,' but it does constitute 'fierce.'

- Which of course is the capstone of the aesthetic pyramid.

<VIP cordon is raised> _"Right this way, Miss Spears." _<Cordon goes down.> _"Not so fast, Mr. Babbitt."
_


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## KenOC

I'd be careful about saying somebody who is enormously successful in a highly competitive and crowded field is "talentless."

My impression is that many successful singers and groups in pop music are really the "faces" of creative teams of songwriters, arrangers, engineers, professional musicians, etc. During the Cultural Revolution, Communist China experimented with group production of music to combat the cult of the individual, but maybe the West has had a far greater success. Regardless, it still has to do with talent.


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## Guest

A demonstration of celebrity is not a demonstration of talent. Conflating the two is at best misleading.


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## Guest

KenOC said:


> I'd be careful about saying somebody who is enormously successful in a highly competitive and crowded field is "talentless."
> 
> My impression is that many successful singers and groups in pop music are really the "faces" of creative teams of songwriters, arrangers, engineers, professional musicians, etc. During the Cultural Revolution, Communist China experimented with group production of music to combat the cult of the individual, but maybe the West has had a far greater success. Regardless, it still has to do with talent.


No doubt Spears is a face of a particular moneymaking machine, so she must have talent in some way. But musical? Beyond perfunctory? I think not.


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## Taggart

Marschallin Blair said:


> Well, I still can't access the last page of this thread- but I'd like to reply to something someone said earlier on this thread.


The problem may be too many cookies. I had the same problem on Firefox. Switched to Chrome also had it. Logged out, logged in - worked fine. Back to Firefox - logged out and in - no joy. Cleared my browsing history - worked fine.

If you can't get the latest post to come up, an alternative is to go to your own last past post (via your profile) and scroll down from there.

Hope this helps.


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## Flamme

We still need couple more votes! Go Britney!


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## Marschallin Blair

Taggart said:


> The problem may be too many cookies. I had the same problem on Firefox. Switched to Chrome also had it. Logged out, logged in - worked fine. Back to Firefox - logged out and in - no joy. Cleared my browsing history - worked fine.
> 
> If you can't get the latest post to come up, an alternative is to go to your own last past post (via your profile) and scroll down from there.
> 
> Hope this helps.


Thank your for your conscious solicitude, Taggart.

TC has fixed the problem as of this morning.

The fact of the matter though was that I never had this problem before- and as of last night from my personal computer at home I cleared the history, cache, and cookies- 'twice'- and the problem of me not being able to access the last page of this thread nonetheless persisted.


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## Marschallin Blair

dogen said:


> No doubt Spears is a face of a particular moneymaking machine, so she must have talent in some way. But musical? Beyond perfunctory? I think not.


I wouldn't say 'that.'

- But I would say that Schoenberg and Babbitt are 'the faces of a particular _non-moneymaking _machine, so they must _not_ have beauty in some way.

Britney forever. _;D_


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## Marschallin Blair

dogen said:


> A demonstration of celebrity is not a demonstration of talent. Conflating the two is at best misleading.


. . . and a demonstration of 'unpopularity' _ipso facto_ isn't a demonstration of talent, profundity, beauty or anything else.

- as late Schoenberg and Babbitt amply remind us.


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## Blancrocher

Marschallin Blair said:


> - But I would say that Schoenberg and Babbitt are 'the faces of a particular _non-moneymaking _machine, so they must not have_ beauty _in some way.


I think you're underestimating the profitability of Princeton University.


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## Balthazar

Marschallin Blair said:


> Well, the rules aren't ' ' wri-ten. ' ' [sic] They're tacitly understood among equals.
> 
> When one's doors are opened for them [sic] and VIP cordons are automatically dropped- and one doesn't even have to use the Force to do it- then 'yes' this doesn't actually constitute a 'job,' but it does constitute 'fierce.'
> 
> - Which of course is the capstone of the aesthetic pyramid.
> 
> <VIP cordon is raised> _"Right this way, Miss Spears." _<Cordon goes down.> _"Not so fast, Mr. Babbitt."
> _


I take it this is an example of the level of "analytical rigor" you so often exhort other members to follow? 

Babbitt certainly pulled off the bald look better than Britney.


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## Marschallin Blair

Blancrocher said:


> I think you're underestimating the profitability of Princeton University.


How can you meaningfully gauge profit and loss by an institution that survives primarily by taxpayer largesse?


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## Balthazar

Marschallin Blair said:


> How can you meaningfully gauge profit and loss by *an institution that survives primarily by taxpayer largesse*?


What is your source for this? I believe this to be completely false.


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## Marschallin Blair

Balthazar said:


> I take it this is a example of the level of "analytical rigor" you so often exhort other members to follow?
> 
> Babbitt certainly pulled off the bald look better than Britney.


Britney had a breakdown.

Babbitt was born babbling.

Her hair grew back. . . and she of course survived 2007.

Babbitt on the other hand, had a forehead that became a five-head- then a six- and then finally seven-head- which, as we all know, was 'forever.'


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## Balthazar

Marschallin Blair said:


> Britney had a breakdown.
> 
> Her hair grew back.


Unfortunately, after her hair grew back and she lost her kids, a court deemed her unfit even to take care of herself and put her under the conservatorship of her father.

Sad hot mess.


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## Marschallin Blair

Balthazar said:


> What is your source for this? I believe this to be completely false.


Reality.

- What's your source for your counterintuitive and counterfactual belief that higher education (if I may call it such) survives primarily by private tuition and stipend?


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## Marschallin Blair

Balthazar said:


> Unfortunately, after her hair grew back and she lost her kids, a court deemed her unfit to even take of herself and put her under the conservatorship of her father.
> 
> Sad hot mess.


_Quod vide infra_ at post #63.

- Beauty beats Mordor (Babbit and Schoenberg) every time.


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## Balthazar

Marschallin Blair said:


> Reality.
> 
> - What's your source for your counterintuitive and counterfactual belief that higher education (if I may call it such) survives primarily by private tuition and stipend?


Below is a breakdown of Princeton University's income sourced from their website. As you can see, the overwhelming majority comes from clearly non-governmental sources. Do you have any facts to support your claim or is this yet another demonstrably false Blair-ism based solely on your fecund imagination?

*Income 2014-15 (in thousands)*

Endowment payout and other investment income	47%	$781,148
Student fees	19%	$325,280
Sponsored research	16%	$275,205
Gifts	11%	$193,400
Auxiliary activities and service income	7%	$112,796
100%


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## Marschallin Blair

Balthazar said:


> Below is a breakdown of Princeton University's income sourced from their website. As you can see, the overwhelming majority is sourced from clearly non-governmental sources. Do you have any facts to support your claim or is this yet another Blair-ism based solely on your fecund imagination?
> 
> *Income 2014-15 (in thousands)*
> 
> Endowment payout and other investment income	47%	$781,148
> Student fees	19%	$325,280
> Sponsored research	16%	$275,205
> Gifts	11%	$193,400
> Auxiliary activities and service income	7%	$112,796
> 100%


Well, I wouldn't prima facie believe anything Princeton says about their own ' ' internal ' ' audit any more than I'd believe the internal audits of Goldman Sachs, Chase Manhattan, or the Federal Reserve.

But just for the sake of fun: "sponsored research" is really just a tax write off for corporations (which of course a lot of the time get carte blanche to use the taxpayer-financed research staff and facilities of the university)- and "gifts" are just tax write offs as well.

I have no idea what the stylized euphemism "auxiliary activities and service income" covers. . .

I'll say this though: If Princeton is so cock sure about its revenue generating ability- then why doesn't it completely divorce itself from direct taxpayer support and indirect tax-write-off subsidies?

Britney Spears, on the other hand, makes her money fairly and squarely on the free market.

She doesn't have to hold anyone hostage to fill her coffers.


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## Balthazar

Marschallin Blair said:


> Well, I wouldn't prima facie believe anything Princeton says about their own ' ' internal ' ' audit any more than I'd believe the internal audits of Goldman Sachs, Chase Manhattan, or the Federal Reserve.
> 
> But just for the sake of fun: "sponsored research" is really just a tax write off for corporations (which of course a lot of the time get carte blanche to use taxpayer-financed research staff and facilities of the university)- and "gifts" are just tax write offs as well.
> 
> I have no idea what the stylized euphemism "auxiliary activities and service income" covers. . .
> 
> I'll say this though: If Princeton is so cock sure about its revenue generating ability- then why doesn't it completely divorce itself from direct taxpayer support and indirect tax-write-off subsidies?
> 
> Britney Spears, on the other hand, makes her money fairly and squarely on the free market.
> 
> She doesn't have to hold anyone hostage to fill her coffers.


As I suspected, you have no evidence for your spurious claim.

Once again, the falsies are all yours.


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## Blancrocher

Much of the equipment Babbitt used in his composition of electronic music was funded by the Rockefeller Foundation, fwiw.


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## Marschallin Blair

Balthazar said:


> As I suspected, you have no evidence for your spurious claim.
> 
> Once again, the falsies are all yours.


Dreams come due.

- Truth hurts.

Take it away Martin Anderson, former Senior Research Fellow of the Hoover Institution at Stanford.

And with Sykes' classic expose as an after dinner mint postscript.


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## Marschallin Blair

Mahlerian said:


> As far as composition is concerned...
> 
> Beauty lies in richness of color, melodic invention, harmonic variety that is effectively employed, among other things.
> 
> Substance lies in fullness of design, solidity of form, brilliance of conception, the apt use of effects to create global rather than local design, and so forth.
> 
> These are the things that distinguish a Bach, Mozart, Beethoven, Wagner, Debussy, Mahler, or Schoenberg from a Quantz, Dittersdorf, Czerny, Rubinstein, Boehe, or Hauer.


That's fine. . . on paper.

But the bottom line for beauty is how it sounds.

Kandinsky and Clement Greenberg too had their theoretical arcana which supposedly validated and made beautiful the scribblings and finger paintings of charlatans. . .

Britney, unlike Milton and Arnold, needs no such specious rationalizations.

Charm, after all, is performance.


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## Guest

I love comedy threads.


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## Mahlerian

Marschallin Blair said:


> That's fine. . . on paper.
> 
> But the bottom line for beauty is how it sounds.


Where, other than your own mind, do you get the idea that I care more about how it looks than how it sounds?
Is it your own way of rejecting modernism to believe that nobody could find it beautiful or moving?

I have never seen the score of many of the pieces I love, including works by Schoenberg, Babbitt, and others.

*Everything* I mentioned directly affects how the piece sounds.


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## Marschallin Blair

dogen said:


> I love comedy threads.


Me too.

.....................................


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## Marschallin Blair

Mahlerian said:


> Where, other than your own mind, do you get the idea that I care more about how it looks than how it sounds?
> Is it your own way of rejecting modernism to believe that nobody could find it beautiful or moving?
> 
> I have never seen the score of many of the pieces I love, including works by Schoenberg, Babbitt, and others.
> 
> *Everything* I mentioned directly affects how the piece sounds.


I don't.

I was drawing an analogy by way of (charlatanous) comparison.


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## Blancrocher

Speaking for myself, I think I prefer the voice of Milton Babbitt. However, you be the judge:











The rhythms of Babbitt are more complex and personal, whereas Spears' sound somewhat hackneyed to me. Technique aside, his voice also has a more pleasing timbre.


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## Mahlerian

Marschallin Blair said:


> I don't.
> 
> I was drawing an analogy by way of (charlatanous) comparison.


So you are making things up in order to irritate me, not because you actually believe what you're saying? Your comment is not the least apropos to this argument unless it is a response to what I said. If you don't believe that I care more about the music on paper than as heard, then why did you bring it up at all?

Schoenberg's music is beautiful in the way that Bach or Sibelius or Mozart are beautiful. It is emotionally powerful in the way that Mahler or Beethoven are emotionally powerful.

My attraction to it is entirely on the basis of how it sounds, and I have made this clear every time it is questioned (and it has been questioned often, including multiple times by yourself).


----------



## Dim7

Enough with the Schoenberg bashing/defending, this thread is about Babbitt and Britney. Babbitt is not Schoenberg


----------



## Dr Johnson

dogen said:


> I love comedy threads.


I think we have left comedy behind, moved at a fair clip through farce and arrived at the brink of Grand Guignol.


----------



## Balthazar

Dr Johnson said:


> I think we have left comedy behind, moved at a fair clip through farce and arrived at the brink of Grand Guignol.


Le Grand Guignol or _La Cage aux Folles_?


----------



## Marschallin Blair

*


Blancrocher said:



Speaking for myself, I think I prefer the voice of Milton Babbitt. . . The rhythms of Babbitt are more complex and personal, whereas Spears' sound somewhat hackneyed to me. Technique aside, his voice also has a more pleasing timbre.

Click to expand...

*Reverse order for me.

When it comes to 'Milton' I prefer Friedman, and when it comes to 'beauty' I prefer Britney.

Babbitt does have a carefully-cultivated charm and a consciously-employed smoothness, implying a profundity which isn't really there.

But I submit, tone is not content.

I'd call his electronic music fad-driven, soulless, and hollow- but if one said that in academe, one would have to get it wrong to get it right.

What's that guy's legacy anyway?- polyester formal wear?

Because when it comes to the electronic music of today, its _laissez les bon temps roulez_ Britney all the way.


----------



## KenOC

Dim7 said:


> Babbitt is not Schoenberg


So some would have us believe. But if you look closely at the tops of their heads, there is an uncanny resemblance that is, at least, both suggestive and disturbing.


----------



## Balthazar

^ And don't forget their long lost evil triplet:


----------



## Marschallin Blair

KenOC said:


> So some would have us believe. But if you look closely at the tops of their heads, *there is an uncanny resemblance that is, at least, both suggestive and disturbing.*


(\__/) (\_(\
(='.'=)(=' :' )
(")_(") (,(')(')

Their bunny-suit composing-costumes changed all that.


----------



## Marschallin Blair

*


Balthazar said:



^ And don't forget their long lost evil triplet:

Click to expand...

*^ Rollicking account though it is, some guys just don't look good in Britney drag. . . Milton.

I love hot pants myself by the by.


----------



## Guest

I'm trying to decide whether this should be moved to the Stupid Thread Ideas area, or ignore it and invent my own...

Nikki Minaj v Richard Wagner







v


----------



## Marschallin Blair

*


MacLeod said:



I'm trying to decide whether this should be moved to the Stupid Thread Ideas area, or ignore it and invent my own...

Nikki Minaj v Richard Wagner

View attachment 76725
v
View attachment 76726

Click to expand...

*I believe Nikki Minaj already has her own thread over at "Plastic Surgery Disasters and Modern Art Masterpieces."

I'll take Britney's boots over Milton's babble anyday.


----------



## Dim7

Marschallin Blair said:


> When it comes to 'Milton' I prefer Friedman





KenOC said:


> Dim7 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Babbitt is not Schoenberg
> 
> 
> 
> So some would have us believe. But if you look closely at the tops of their heads, there is an uncanny resemblance that is, at least, both suggestive and disturbing.
Click to expand...

Enough with the Schoenberg equivocations, Milton Babbitt and Milton Friedman look almost entirely identical.


----------



## SeptimalTritone

But aren't the people who are inspired by Schoenberg and Babbitt just as fabulously and beautifully _sui generis_ as the people inspired by Britney Spears?

And for that matter, what about people inspired by Liu Yifei?

I think that everyone that takes inspiration (or doesn't take inspiration) from any visionary leader from Mozart to Xenakis to Ferneyhough to Elle MacPherson to Maria Callas is just totally freaking fabulous and _sui generis_. If it speaks deeply to that person and makes them feel fabulous, then it's awesome!

For that matter, I think that Babbitt's instrumental textures take me to new, fabulous places of mental and emotional gravity. I'd personally tap both Milton Babbitt and Liu Yifei. Maybe even at the same time.


----------



## Marschallin Blair

Dim7 said:


> Enough with the Schoenberg equivocations, Milton Babbitt and Milton Friedman look almost entirely identical.
> 
> View attachment 76727
> View attachment 76728


. . . in a 'hideous-sort-of-way'- yeah.

Like how Bizarro and Superman "look the same."

'Similarity' by definition implies difference. . .

"Smile, Milton!"

- No, not you, Professor Friedman, Nobel Laureate in Economic Science- the 'other' Milton- the 'scowling Milton.'

Not to worry though.

Britney will make it all better.


----------



## Blancrocher

"Babbitt" often makes me think of Bugs Bunny, who I recall finding rather disturbing as a child, but "Spears" strikes me as inescapably violent. Close call here, but once again I'm giving Milton Babbitt the victory.


----------



## Dr Johnson

Because they are currently the hottest topics here I keep flipping between this one and the VPO/Nazis thread, and getting confused as to which one I'm reading at any one moment.

But I think this belongs here more. The subtitles are somewhat illiterate.


----------



## Marschallin Blair

Blancrocher said:


> "Babbitt" often makes me think of Bugs Bunny, who I recall finding rather disturbing as a child, but "Spears" strikes me as inescapably violent. Close call here, but once again I'm giving Milton Babbitt the victory.


The shockingly sick actuality of things is a little bit different for me.

That plodding banality of electronic arcana that Milton Babbitt calls music literally 'bores me' to death. Its so boring in fact that it arouses neither sympathy nor empathy in me.

Britney on the other hand has a great dance set, occasional high drama, and even gets totally unhinged.

I like wild, vibrant, and dangerous.

Hell to me isn't 'other people'- as Sartre would have it- but rather 'boring people.'

Point: Bree-Bree.


----------



## KenOC

Marschallin Blair said:


> That plodding banality of electronic arcana that Milton Babbitt calls music literally 'bores me' to death. Its so boring in fact that it arouses neither sympathy nor empathy in me.


Is it you who Babbitt has in mind when he writes, "If this music is not supported, the whistling repertory of the man in the street will be little affected, the concert-going activity of the conspicuous consumer of musical culture will be little disturbed"? He's certainly got me pegged! :lol:


----------



## Balthazar

Here's Britney desperately searching for her talent at the bottom of a Frappuccino.


----------



## Marschallin Blair

KenOC said:


> Is it you who Babbitt has in mind when he writes, "If this music is not supported, the whistling repertory of the man in the street will be little affected, the concert-going activity of the conspicuous consumer of musical culture will be little disturbed"? He's certainly got me pegged! :lol:


Babbitt 'absolutely' had me in mind.

His delusions of grandeur are precious beyond words.

I can smell the Depends.


----------



## Balthazar

*"Why is my fan base solely comprised of 
washed-up, middle-aged drag queens?!?!?!?"*
​


----------



## KenOC

Balthazar said:


> *"Why is my fan base solely comprised of
> washed-up, middle-aged drag queens?!?!?!?"*
> ​


It's a myth. Babbitt never said that. You may be thinking of Subotnick.


----------



## Balthazar

KenOC said:


> It's a myth. Babbitt never said that. You may be thinking of Subotnick.


-- Yeah, the photo kind of looks like Babbitt, but it's Britney. Sans kids.


----------



## EddieRUKiddingVarese

I voted for Groucho


----------



## Marschallin Blair

*


Balthazar said:



"Why is my fan base solely comprised of 
washed-up, middle-aged drag queens?!?!?!?"

Click to expand...

*Dear Britney,

I think the question can be reformulated as: *How many haggard, hipster James-Dean eunuchs from Middle America are Britney fans 'to begin with'?*

Does such 'Babbitry'- Miltonian 'or' Sinclairean- even 'fit' a Britney demographic?

I mean. . . they're so 'gauche'. . . so 'geek'. . . so 'flabbed'. . . . . . . . . . . . and 'so' untanned.

As you know, not everyone can be on the Blonde and Bronzed A-list.

Ever,

Marsch


----------



## Balthazar

^ Let me translate...

*"Who loves ya, Britney?"*
​


----------



## Marschallin Blair

*


Balthazar said:



"Who loves ya, Britney?"
​

Click to expand...

​*
James Dean?

Or Sal Mineo?​


----------



## Balthazar

*"I repeat... Why is my fan base solely comprised of 
washed-up, middle-aged drag queens?!?!?!?"*
​


----------



## Balthazar

[Intermission]..................


----------



## Marschallin Blair

Balthazar said:


> *"I repeat... Why is my fan base solely comprised of
> washed-up, middle-aged drag queens?!?!?!?"*
> ​


_Haggard.

Hipster.

Euneuchs_

- for the Kingdom of Babbitt.

I think you're. . . . . . 'confused'

. . . about the right demographic.

My original question to Britney at Post #102 was:

*How many haggard, hipster James-Dean eunuchs from Middle America are Britney fans 'to begin with'?*

Southern Californian Britney fans that live by the beach reign supreme.


----------



## Balthazar

^ Let me translate again...

*"I still luv ya, Brits!"*​


----------



## Balthazar

*"Please....Somebody....Help!!!"*
​


----------



## Marschallin Blair

Balthazar said:


> ^ Let me translate again...
> 
> *"I still luv ya, Brits!"*​


^ _"Jimmy, blonde isn't your color."_

Blonde isn't Babbitt's color either.

- That's why Britney rules.


----------



## Blancrocher

I can't believe she calls herself "Britney," since everyone knows she's American. Why the pretense?


----------



## Marschallin Blair

*


Blancrocher said:



I can't believe she calls herself "Britney," since everyone knows she's American. Why the pretense?

Click to expand...

*She could have been less pretentious and told her parents that before she was born, true.

Such smug Babbittry is simply beyond her, I suppose.


----------



## Balthazar

Marschallin Blair said:


>


That's actually a really nice shot of Dean and Mineo. Thanks for that!

Sad how they both died such tragic deaths.


----------



## Balthazar

It's almost breakfast time in Europe.

Muffin tops anyone?


----------



## Marschallin Blair

*


Balthazar said:



That's actually a really nice shot of Dean and Mineo. Thanks for that!

Sad how they both died such tragic deaths.

Click to expand...

*

Oh, I agree.

But Sal's right: James looks terrible in drag.

- just like Babbitt would.


----------



## Balthazar

Cocktail hour is still a bit far off. 

Let's stick with breakfast and muffin tops.


----------



## Marschallin Blair

*


Balthazar said:



It's almost breakfast time in Europe.

Muffin tops anyone?

Click to expand...

*_"Muffin tops anyone?"_- Ha. Ha. Ha. Ha.

'That's' much a-dough about muffin.

Where does one go to 'find' such hackneyed humor?- Middle 'Murica?






^ Milton Babbitt and Middle 'Murican Babbitts- this Britney video is for you. _;D_


----------



## Balthazar

^ Let me translate again...

*"I still luv ya, Brits!"*
​


----------



## Marschallin Blair

Balthazar said:


> ^ Let me translate again...
> 
> *"I still luv ya, Brits!"*
> ​


^ A 'Murican James-Dean-eunuch-hipster in drag- 'yes, yes,' we get it.

- Do 'you'?


----------



## Guest

We're actually arguing about the merits of Britney Spears.

Wow.

I guess I should take standard Maria Callas lip service with a grain of salt, if Britney Spears is worthy of the same...


----------



## Balthazar

Want some bacon with your muffin tops?


----------



## Balthazar

^ We're talking Khloé Kardashian right there...


----------



## Marschallin Blair

*


Balthazar said:



Want some bacon with your muffin tops?

Click to expand...

*I've heard that line somewhere before.

Isn't that what James Dean says to his father when he's wearing an apron on his hands and knees in _Rebel Without a Cause_?






03:34+

That's beyond Babittry- that's pure Middle 'Murica.

Doktor Freud zez dat he hass iiiii-shues.

Anyway, Britney trumps Babbittry again.


----------



## Balthazar

Marschallin Blair said:


>


Why does this remind me of the South Park episode with Paris Hilton and the pineapple?


----------



## Marschallin Blair

*


Balthazar said:



^ We're talking Khloé Kardashian right there...

Click to expand...

*
_"Stop being a drag, Jimmy"_- isn't that what Sal keeps saying to James Dean in his blonde 'Murica wig?

This thread is all about how Britney trumps Babbitt.


----------



## Balthazar

If you don't see how much cooler the Dean clip is compared to Spears's cheap grind, that says everything.


----------



## Balthazar

If you will permit to reply for you:

*"Indeed it does!"*
​


----------



## Marschallin Blair

*


Balthazar said:



If you don't see how much cooler the Dean clip is compared to Spears's cheap grind, that says everything.

Click to expand...

*I suppose one can say that without fear of contradiction. . .

. . . in a 'eunuch-sort-of-way.'

Britney trumps Babbittry. . . and 'Murcanism. . . and eunuchs- every time.


----------



## Guest

Balthazar said:


> If you will permit to reply for you:
> 
> *"Indeed it does!"*
> ​


Oh dear! You know that expression about if you put lipstick on a pig...


----------



## Marschallin Blair

Balthazar said:


> If you will permit to reply for you:
> 
> *"Indeed it does!"*
> ​


^ "Jimmy Dean! Have you been into mommy's Church Lady make-up again?"

Staying on topic: Britney rides right 'over' 'Murican Babbitry.


----------



## Balthazar

*"Is there a Burger King around here?
I'm feeling fugly..."​*


----------



## KenOC

dogen said:


> Oh dear! You know that expression about if you put lipstick on a pig...


Milton Babbitt with lipstick? That's downright frightening!


----------



## Marschallin Blair

*


dogen said:



Oh dear! You know that expression about if you put lipstick on a pig...

Click to expand...

*. . . you get Nancy Lugosi.

- Or James Dean (still) in drag.

I love Britney. I can't help it if her superiority- and my own- makes others feel inferior.

Babbitry's beneath us.


----------



## Balthazar

*"Britney's great, but I just loooove Maria Callas!"*
​


----------



## Balthazar

*"I repeat... Why is my fan base solely comprised of 
washed-up, middle-aged drag queens?!?!?!?"*


----------



## Marschallin Blair

*


nathanb said:



We're actually arguing about the merits of Britney Spears.

Wow.

I guess I should take standard Maria Callas lip service with a grain of salt, if Britney Spears is worthy of the same...

Click to expand...

*No, merely a severely retarded sociopath like that lovable psychotic, 'Pierre Boulez.'

Boulez is Babbittry.

Britney's butter.


----------



## Marschallin Blair

> Balthasar "Britney's great, but I just loooove Maria Callas!"


^"But you love you dad in an apron more, huh Jimmy."

- 'in' or 'out of' drag. 

_Brinny, si.

Babbittry, no._


----------



## Balthazar

Another pineapple, please!


----------



## Guest

On a more sober note, and having just listened to more Babbitt, I can safely say that as a pioneer of electronic music, Britney's rubbish. I am more likely to return to listen to more Babbitt than Britney between now and my end.


----------



## KenOC

Has everybody forgotten the NY Times story from a few years ago, where Babbitt and Boulez were seen in full drag queen makeup and attire dancing cheeko-a-cheeko in a VERY intimate fashion? The pictures are somewhere on the Internet...


----------



## Balthazar

Another pineapple, please!

Too much is never enough...


----------



## Marschallin Blair

KenOC said:


> Has everybody forgotten the NY Times story from a few years ago, where Babbitt and Boulez were seen in full drag queen makeup and attire dancing cheeko-a-cheeko in a VERY intimate fashion? The pictures are somewhere on the Internet...


Are we sure that "Boulez-and-Babbitt, in a tree, K-I-S-S-I-N-G" aren't actually from the ' ' Paris of the West? ' '- where they have pineapple fixations?


----------



## Marschallin Blair

MacLeod said:


> *On a more sober note, and having just listened to more Babbitt, I can safely say that as a pioneer of electronic music, Britney's rubbish.* I am more likely to return to listen to more Babbitt than Britney between now and my end.


On a sober note of my own: Do 'you' like pineapples by chance?


----------



## Guest

Marschallin Blair said:


> On a sober note of my own: Do 'you' like pineapples by chance?


'Me' (?) Sliced or chunked and tinned in syrup, yes....

Oh, I forgot the glitzy photo...


----------



## Balthazar

Marschallin Blair said:


> ^"But you love you dad in an apron more, huh Jimmy."
> - 'in' or 'out of' drag.
> _Brinny, si.
> 
> Babbittry, no._


I know the English language isn't your strong point, but this is completely nonsensical. Could you translate, please?


----------



## Balthazar

*"Ummmmm..... Callas..........Right?....Let me check......." *


----------



## Dim7

Marschallin Blair said:


> Isn't that what James Dean says to his father when he's wearing an apron on his hands and knees in _Rebel Without a Cause_?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 03:34+


If James Dean does not equal Jim Carrey, why are they calling him Jim here?? Explain, Balthazar.


----------



## Balthazar

Dim7 said:


> If James Dean does not equal Jim Carrey, why are they calling him Jim here?? Explain, Balthazar.


 Jim Stark was the name of the character that James Dean played in _Rebel Without a Cause_.

















Just as Khloé Kardashian was the name of the character that Lisa Whelchel played in _Keeping up with the Kardashians_.


----------



## Dr Johnson

Balthazar said:


> *"Ummmmm..... Callas..........Right?....Let me check......." *


Wilhelmina !


----------



## EdwardBast

Mahlerian said:


> Apparently, Babbitt wrote better classical music than Britney Spears. He also wrote better non-classical music than Britney Spears. As this is in the non-classical music forum, I went with the latter for my decision.


Well reasoned and aptly stated. My only question would be: Is anyone sure Britney Spears actually writes the music she sings? Many "artists" like Spears perform "works for hire," for which they are legally entitled to claim credit as composer despite having had nothing to do with the creative process other than funneling money to a real composer.


----------



## Flamme

Looking at todays ''Divas'' of ''Pop'' music like Miley and Bieber Britney was a girlscout...


----------



## Marschallin Blair

EdwardBast said:


> Well reasoned and aptly stated. My only question would be: Is anyone sure Britney Spears actually writes the music she sings? Many "artists" like Spears perform "works for hire," for which they are legally entitled to claim credit as composer despite having had nothing to do with the creative process other than funneling money to a real composer.


Well, I'd say that what Mahlerian says is 'well reasoned and aptly stated' as well- but within a comparatively narrow aspect of the 'original posting topic,' which of course is the talking point of this thread. To wit:

*Milton Babbitt vs. Britney Spears: Who is superior, in your opinion? *

Well, 'Britney'- for me.

I love Britney Spears because she has an irresistible allure as an entertainer.

My standard of value for my comparison is 'irresistible allure' and 'entertainer- the opposite of say, 'repulsion' and 'utterly boring.'

Whether or not she composes her own music is merely incidental to me.

If people want to spend their Friday and Saturday nights listening to 'originally composed' electronic arcana is their own affair.


----------



## isorhythm

Interestingly, it could be argued that both Britney and Babbitt, whatever their merits, marked low points in their respective fields.


----------



## Dim7

I've heard that when they have let Britney to do the composing she has always insisted on using the 12-tone method. None of that stuff was published, for obvious reasons.


----------



## Marschallin Blair

Balthazar said:


> Jim Stark was the name of the character that James Dean played in _Rebel Without a Cause_.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Just as Khloé Kardashian was the name of the character that Lisa Whelchel played in _Keeping up with the Kardashians_.


^ What does Khloé Kardashian have to do with me?- unless this is an off-topic personal attack on me which is in violation of the clearly-stated TC TOS, which it clearly is.


----------



## Marschallin Blair

Balthazar said:


> *"Ummmmm..... Callas..........Right?....Let me check......." *


What 'is' this recurring posting fixation of yours with some Mid-Western hipster in drag?

The topic of this thread is about Britney, Babbitt, and Babbittry.


----------



## Guest

Dim7 said:


> I've heard that when they have let Britney to do the composing she has always insisted on using the 12-tone method. None of that stuff was published, for obvious reasons.


That stuff's composed? I thought the aleatoric thing was her bag.


----------



## Blancrocher

isorhythm said:


> Interestingly, it could be argued that both Britney and Babbitt, whatever their merits, marked low points in their respective fields.


It's true--both of them resided very close to sea level, though on opposite coasts. Without going into more technical research, I'm inclined to declare a draw in this category.

Good point.


----------



## Marschallin Blair

Balthazar said:


> I know the English language isn't your strong point, but this is completely nonsensical. Could you translate, please?


_"I know the English language isn't your strong point. . . "- _would that be a TC TOS violation of commenting on someone's posting style?- of course it would be.


----------



## EdwardBast

Marschallin Blair said:


> Well, I'd say that what Mahlerian says is 'well reasoned and aptly stated' as well- but within a comparatively narrow aspect of the 'original posting topic,' which of course is the talking point of this thread. To wit:
> 
> *Milton Babbitt vs. Britney Spears: Who is superior, in your opinion? *
> 
> Well, 'Britney'- for me.
> 
> I love Britney Spears because she has an irresistible allure as an entertainer.
> 
> My standard of value for my comparison is 'irresistible allure' and 'entertainer- the opposite of say, 'repulsion' and 'utterly boring.'
> 
> Whether or not she composes her own music is merely incidental to me.
> 
> If people want to spend their Friday and Saturday nights listening to 'originally composed' electronic arcana is their own affair.


I assumed the question had something to do with their respective musical efforts. Given that Babbitt was not an entertainer and Spears is not a composer, I'd say there is no point of comparison worthy of sustaining even a joke thread, which, of course, is what this thread was supposed to be, right?


----------



## Marschallin Blair

EdwardBast said:


> I assumed the question had something to do with their respective musical efforts. Given that Babbitt was not an entertainer and Spears is not a composer, I'd say there is no point of comparison worthy of sustaining even a joke thread, which, of course, is what this thread was supposed to be, right?


Well, since an artist as crashingly boring as Milton Babbitt was 'even mentioned' as part of the original thread topic on 'superiority,' I suppose you're right.


----------



## Dr Johnson

EdwardBast said:


> I assumed the question had something to do with their respective musical efforts. Given that Babbitt was not an entertainer and Spears is not a composer, I'd say there is no point of comparison worthy of sustaining even a joke thread, which, of course, is what this thread was supposed to be, right?


This thread is a _joke_??!?

When the hell did that happen and why did nobody tell me??


----------



## Blancrocher

Dr Johnson said:


> This thread is a _joke_??!?
> 
> When the hell did that happen and why did nobody tell me??


TC threads always begin or end as jokes, though I'll admit it's sometimes hard to tell which is which--even if, to quote the title of an impressive piece by Britney Spears, "it should be easy."


----------



## Marschallin Blair

Dim7 said:


> I've heard that when they have let Britney to do the composing she has always insisted on using the 12-tone method. None of that stuff was published, for obvious reasons.


- Sounding 'more-Schoenberg-than-Schoenberg' undoubtedly being one of them.


----------



## Mahlerian

EdwardBast said:


> Well reasoned and aptly stated. My only question would be: Is anyone sure Britney Spears actually writes the music she sings? Many "artists" like Spears perform "works for hire," for which they are legally entitled to claim credit as composer despite having had nothing to do with the creative process other than funneling money to a real composer.


True. She is listed as co-writer on some of her songs, I think, but that could just as easily mean lyrics (or nothing at all), and probably does, because of the vagaries of credit for these things.

As to anyone wondering if I was being facetious about Babbitt writing non-classical music, no, it's actually true, he wrote an unproduced Broadway musical. Excerpts of it have been performed from time to time.


----------



## Marschallin Blair

Mahlerian said:


> True. She is listed as co-writer on some of her songs, I think, but that could just as easily mean lyrics (or nothing at all), and probably does, because of the vagaries of credit for these things.
> 
> As to anyone wondering if I was being facetious about Babbitt writing non-classical music, no, it's actually true, he wrote an unproduced Broadway musical. Excerpts of it have been performed from time to time.


And people actually 'attended' it?

- No wonder these types hide in academe supported by their taxpayer-financed stipend.

They'd starve otherwise.


----------



## Mahlerian

Marschallin Blair said:


> And people actually 'attended' it?
> 
> - No wonder these types hide in academe supported by their taxpayer-financed stipend.
> 
> They'd starve otherwise.


Milton Babbitt isn't given a stipend for his music, but for his teaching. He also taught Broadway composer Steven Sondheim and jazz guitarist Stanley Jordan, both of whom went to him specifically because of his knowledge of and sympathy for popular idioms as well as traditional methods.


----------



## Mahlerian

At any rate, Milton Babbitt spent his childhood playing clarinet in dance bands and winning a local songwriting contest at 13.

Britney Spears spent her childhood in the Mickey Mouse Club.


----------



## Dr Johnson

Mahlerian said:


> Milton Babbitt isn't given a stipend for his music, but for his teaching. He also taught Broadway composer Steven Sondheim *and jazz guitarist Stanley Jordan,* both of whom went to him specifically because of his knowledge of and sympathy for popular idioms as well as traditional methods.


Interesting factoid. thank you.

I wonder if Babbitt had anything to do with Jordan's unorthodox pianistic approach to playing the guitar?

Haven't heard of or thought about Jordan since the 80s when he appeared in Guitar Player. Is he still around? Does he still play the guitar by tapping the fretboard with both hands?


----------



## Marschallin Blair

Mahlerian said:


> Milton Babbitt isn't given a stipend for his music, but for his teaching. He also taught Broadway composer Steven Sondheim and jazz guitarist Stanley Jordan, both of whom went to him specifically because of his knowledge of and sympathy for popular idioms as well as traditional methods.


I'm glad to hear that about Milton Babbitt- absolutely wonderful.

One's talent as a pedagogue though doesn't always translate to one's talents as an 'artist' (I had to bring this up since we are now mixing categories and talking about teaching and not aesthetics). . .

As far as the professoriate getting an 'automatic' taxpayer subsidy goes- I think it should be abolished and that teachers should be paid by the students 'directly,' like the_ Privatdozents_ of the Austro-Germanic world.

You know, where one has to sing for their supper, as it were.

If these people are as desperately needed as they assure us they are, then they should have no trouble being self-made millionaires.


----------



## Marschallin Blair

Mahlerian said:


> At any rate, Milton Babbitt spent his childhood playing clarinet in dance bands and winning a local songwriting contest at 13.
> 
> Britney Spears spent her childhood in the Mickey Mouse Club.


- and look where it got her:

Albums: …Baby One More Time (1999), 10.6 million; Oops!...I Did It Again (2000), 9.2 million; Britney (2001), 4.4 million; In the Zone (2003), 3 million; Circus (2008), 1.7 million; Greatest Hits: My Prerogative (2004), 1.5 million; Blackout (2007), 1 million; Femme Fatale (2011), 788,000; Britney Jean (2013), 265,000; The Singles Collection (2009), 250,000.

With 33.1 million albums sold in the U.S., Spears is the 17th-best-selling album artist since Nielsen began tracking sales in 1991. Among women, she's fourth, after Mariah Carey (54.6 million), Celine Dion (52.4 million) and Shania Twain (34.5 million). After Spears, Reba McEntire ranks fifth among women at 30.4 million albums sold.

And, here are Spears's (… I did it again) 10-best-selling downloads (and remembering that her career predates the dawn of the digital era by a few years): "Womanizer," 3.5 million; "Circus," 3.1 million; "Till the World Ends," 2.9 million; "3," 2.3 million; "Toxic," 2.2 million.

"Piece of Me," 1.9 million; "Gimme More," 1.81 million; "I Wanna Go," 1.77 million; "Hold It Against Me," 1.6 million; "If U Seek Amy," 1.3 million.

http://www.billboard.com/articles/c...10/ask-billboard-britney-spearss-career-sales

So 'Mickey Mouse Britney Spears' ends up being the self-made, bullish entrepreneur with all the success.

And of course Milton Babbitt ends up becoming a kept man and a ward of the state.

- Cheers to that blue ribbon at the childhood song-writing contest, Milty.


----------



## Mahlerian

Marschallin Blair said:


> One's talent as a pedagogue though doesn't always translate to one's talents as an 'artist' (I had to bring this up since we are now mixing categories and talking about teaching and not aesthetics). . .


No, you were the one who brought it up by falsely claiming that Babbitt was given a government stipend for his music. He got a Pulitzer Prize, though, and a MacArthur Foundation grant.

Britney Spears hasn't made much money on the strength of her *music*, either. And I'd guess she's not going to win a Pulitzer.

And you're mixing up the categories of aesthetics and shallow consumerism.


----------



## Mahlerian

Dr Johnson said:


> Interesting factoid. thank you.
> 
> I wonder if Babbitt had anything to do with Jordan's unorthodox pianistic approach to playing the guitar?
> 
> Haven't heard of or thought about Jordan since the 80s when he appeared in Guitar Player. Is he still around? Does he still play the guitar by tapping the fretboard with both hands?


I'm not that familiar with his career, but a quick search reveals that he has been releasing albums as of a few years ago, although he was eventually dropped from Blue Note for failing to attain the massive sales of his first album with them.


----------



## Marschallin Blair

Mahlerian said:


> No, you were the one who brought it up by falsely claiming that Babbitt was given a government stipend for his music. He got a Pulitzer Prize, though, and a MacArthur Foundation grant.
> 
> Britney Spears hasn't made much money on the strength of her *music*, either. And I'd guess she's not going to win a Pulitzer.
> 
> And you're mixing up the categories of aesthetics and shallow consumerism.


Was or was not Milton Babbitt on the taxpayer-financed payroll of Princeton University?- Huh. Huh. . . 'yeah.'

- And I haven't been talking about Britney's 'music'- rather you and Edward Bast were.

My love of Britney Spears 'the act' is, 'as aforementioned,' for the allure of the entertainment and of course for the sex-pot dancing, make-up, and costumes.

Does "shallow aesthetics" include cartoons?- because Pulitzer gives prizes for that.

http://www.pulitzer.org/bycat/editorial-cartooning

_Go Britney_!


----------



## Guest

Marschallin Blair said:


> So 'Mickey Mouse Britney Spears' ends up being the *self-made, bullish entrepreneur* with all the success.


If Britney Spears is self-made, then I'm the ruler of the galactic empire.

If money is your sole measure of success, then we've gleaned all the information we need from this conversation.


----------



## Marschallin Blair

Mahlerian said:


> I'm not that familiar with his career, but a quick search reveals that he has been releasing albums as of a few years ago, although he was eventually dropped from Blue Note for failing to attain the massive sales of his first album with them.


The first time I saw Stanley Jordan was when he was playing in the back round of some scene with Kim Basinger and Bruce Willis in the movie_ Blind Date._

I love Kim in that movie!

Stanley's guitar playing is awesome too.


----------



## Flamme

I see the same peeps who discourage young Alma D are trying to do the same with the quite modern composer Britney. No Good!
Btw MB clean your mailbox need to private you...


----------



## Marschallin Blair

nathanb said:


> If Britney Spears is self-made, then I'm the ruler of the galactic empire.
> 
> If money is your sole measure of success, then we've gleaned all the information we need from this conversation.


So what are you trying to say?- spell it out, 'nathanb.'

Its not the love of money that's evil- but the love of 'other people's money.'

I love success and I love seeing other people being successful- especially when they're beautiful in some capacity.

It resonates.


----------



## KenOC

Mahlerian said:


> True. She is listed as co-writer on some of her songs, I think, but that could just as easily mean lyrics (or nothing at all), and probably does, because of the vagaries of credit for these things.


"The performer's name will often appear in the list of songwriters, even if his or her contribution is negligible. (There's a saying for this in the music industry: "Change a word, get a third.") But almost no pop celebrities write their own hits. Too much is on the line for that..."

This entire article on the pop music industry is fascinating.

http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2015/10/hit-charade/403192/


----------



## Guest

Blancrocher said:


> TC threads always begin or end as jokes, though I'll admit it's sometimes hard to tell which is which--even if, to quote the title of an impressive piece by Britney Spears, "it should be easy."


You know song titles???!


----------



## Guest

Dr Johnson said:


> Interesting factoid. thank you.
> 
> I wonder if Babbitt had anything to do with Jordan's unorthodox pianistic approach to playing the guitar?
> 
> Haven't heard of or thought about Jordan since the 80s when he appeared in Guitar Player. Is he still around? Does he still play the guitar by tapping the fretboard with both hands?


Now who was it that said "Let me google that for you" ?!?! :devil:


----------



## Dim7

Do you guys prefer Britney's original "Oops I did it again" or the Children of Bodom cover, btw?


----------



## Guest

Marschallin Blair said:


> So what are you trying to say?- spell it out, 'nathanb.'


I'm sorry if I was too cryptic.

Britney Spears is one of the furthest people on the planet from "self-made".


----------



## Marschallin Blair

nathanb said:


> I'm sorry if I was too cryptic.
> 
> Britney Spears is one of the furthest people on the planet from "self-made".


The proof is in the bank account- hers not yours, I mean.


----------



## Dr Johnson

dogen said:


> Now who was it that said "Let me google that for you" ?!?! :devil:


Harsh! But fair.. :lol:

In fact, if you have been following my posts with the keenness they surely deserve )) you will have seen that, not long after my lazy query to Mahlerian, I YouToobed Stanley and found this agreeable ditty.

Which is nice.


----------



## Guest

Marschallin Blair said:


> The proof is in the bank account- hers not yours, I mean.


Having money is no proof of being "self made."


----------



## Guest

dogen said:


> Having money is no proof of being "self made."


There's really no correlation whatsoever. But logic won't work here, doge. Don't you know that?


----------



## Dim7

I guess you need some money to have "made it", but doesn't mean that if you have money you have made it yourself.


----------



## Dr Johnson

Dim7 said:


> Do you guys prefer Britney's original "Oops I did it again" or the Children of Bodom cover, btw?


The Children of Bodom win hands down for me.

Fine stuff!


----------



## Dim7

It think it's just Finneish.


----------



## Marschallin Blair

Flamme said:


> I see the same peeps who discourage young Alma D are trying to do the same with the quite modern composer Britney. No Good!
> Btw MB clean your mailbox need to private you...


Flamme, 'hi'- I currently have 994 PM's in my TC mailbox.

I have to pare it down to under 500 in order for my mailbox to be operational.

Give me some time.

I just don't want to 'delete' most of them- as they contain exchanges with TC friends which are absolute cultural bullion to me._ ;D _

I know I've been saying I'd clean it for months- but these things take time.

I will get it done though.


----------



## Marschallin Blair

Dr Johnson said:


> The Children of Bodom win hands down for me.
> 
> Fine stuff!












Immortal blows them away.

- but then, Britney blows away Immortal.


----------



## Guest

_Pure Holocaust_ is my favorite Immortal bar none.

That's quite impressive BlairBear; I've only allotted about ~100 PMs in my entire time here.


----------



## Dim7




----------



## Dr Johnson

I am aware that some members think that this thread is a joke. I don't share that view, but to balance some of the frivolity it is time for a considered and sober commentary on some aspects of Britney's career.


----------



## Guest

Since someone brought up extreme metal, and other people are bringing up the Hitler reaction meme, I'll just leave one of my old favorites here:






"Unless you have Altars Of Madness on double gatefold red vinyl, please leave..."


----------



## Dim7

Not voting for Britney is misogynistic, and not voting for Babbitt is anti-semitic.


----------



## Marschallin Blair

nathanb said:


> _Pure Holocaust_ is my favorite Immortal bar none.
> 
> That's quite impressive BlairBear; I've only allotted about ~100 PMs in my entire time here


Oh, I can be the tigress at times _;D_ . . .

I really like "One by One," "Triumph, and "Hordes to War."










 (Wacken 2007 performance only please)


----------



## Guest

Marschallin Blair said:


> It resonates.


So you see yourself as comparable to Spears then?


----------



## Guest

Flamme said:


> modern composer Britney


There's three words I never expected to see in one sentence! It fair puts the Pollster to shame!


----------



## Dim7

Well if Britney's not modern then she's either pre-modern or post-modern. Which is it?


----------



## Guest

Dim7 said:


> Well if Britney's not modern then she's either pre-modern or post-modern. Which is it?


A m o d e r n .


----------



## Dr Johnson

Dim7 said:


> Well if Britney's not modern then she's either pre-modern or post-modern. Which is it?


I think that Britney may be a kind of shamen for our age; a shape-shifting intermediary between reality and fantasy. An androgynous ambassador from the land of gilded, sparkling celebrity to the land where we mere peons who have our pathetic being in the real world of doubt and pain.


----------



## Marschallin Blair

dogen said:


> So you see yourself as comparable to Spears then?


Noooooo.

My ectomorphic runway phenotype is much more like Elle.

Britney's borderline-mesomorph.


----------



## Guest

Dr Johnson said:


> I think that Britney may be a kind of shamen for our age; a shape-shifting intermediary between reality and fantasy. An androgynous ambassador from the land of gilded, sparkling celebrity to the land where we mere peons who have our pathetic being in the real world of doubt and pain.


Is that a 15 per center then?!


----------



## Dim7

Dr Johnson said:


> I think that Britney may be a kind of shamen for our age; a shape-shifting intermediary between reality and fantasy. An androgynous ambassador from the land of gilded, sparkling celebrity to the land where we mere peons who have our pathetic being in the real world of doubt and pain.


Well that was not the answer I expected.


----------



## Guest

Marschallin Blair said:


> Noooooo.
> 
> My ectomorphic runway phenotype is much more like Elle.
> 
> Britney's borderline-mesomorph.


Jeez, that's a bit psychobabble for me! Let's keep this real:

How many records have YOU sold?
What does YOUR self-made bank account look like?
What do YOU look like? Like Elle?


----------



## Dr Johnson

Dim7 said:


> Well that was not the answer I expected.


I like to keep you all on your toes.

Even when my tongue is rammed so firmly into my cheek that it's a wonder it does not come out the other side.


----------



## Dr Johnson

Marschallin Blair said:


> Noooooo.
> 
> *My ectomorphic runway phenotype* is much more like Elle.
> 
> Britney's borderline-mesomorph.


What does this actually _mean?_


----------



## KenOC

Dr Johnson said:


> I think that Britney may be a kind of shamen for our age; a shape-shifting intermediary between reality and fantasy. An androgynous ambassador from the land of gilded, sparkling celebrity to the land where we mere peons who have our pathetic being in the real world of doubt and pain.


"The perfect pop star creates a desire loop between audience and performer. We abandon reality together, meeting in a synthetic pop fantasy of California Girls and Teenage Dreams."


----------



## Dr Johnson

^^

Indeed.

Pass the sick bag.


----------



## Marschallin Blair

KenOC said:


> "The perfect pop star creates a desire loop between audience and performer. We abandon reality together, meeting in a synthetic pop fantasy of California Girls and Teenage Dreams."


What flaccid, bald tenured wrote 'that'?

Or was it from _Tiger Beat_?


----------



## Marschallin Blair

Dr Johnson said:


> What does this actually _mean?_


- 'a tall, thin, runway-model's build.'


----------



## KenOC

I think people who criticize Britney Spears are missing an important point. Britney Spears is not a person but a product, created, managed, and marketed by a high-powered team of very talented people. Her success is not measured in esthetic terms but by market penetration, profit margins, net revenues, and so forth.

From our usual point of view here, criticizing Britney Spears is like criticizing corn flakes.


----------



## Blancrocher

Hold on, now--seems Britney Spears has a skeleton in her closet that her supporters haven't deigned to mention:






_Me Against The Music_???!!!!!! She's against music--said it herself.

I'm more inclined than ever to give Babbitt the victory in this poll.


----------



## Dr Johnson

KenOC said:


> I think people who criticize Britney Spears are missing an important point.* Britney Spears is not a person but a product, created, managed, and marketed *by a high-powered team of very talented people. Her success is not measured in esthetic terms but by market penetration, profit margins, net revenues, and so forth.
> 
> From our usual point of view here, criticizing Britney Spears is like criticizing corn flakes.


Like Barbie?


----------



## Marschallin Blair

dogen said:


> Jeez, that's a bit psychobabble for me! Let's keep this real:
> 
> How many records have YOU sold?
> What does YOUR self-made bank account look like?
> What do YOU look like? Like Elle?


^*** Criticizing a posting style is a violation of the TC TOS.***

_Hiiiiiiiiii-eeeeeeeeee. Byyyyyyy-eeeeeeeeeeee._


----------



## KenOC

Marschallin Blair said:


> What flaccid, bald tenured wrote 'that'?


It was the same flaccid, bald tenured who wrote how Britney Spears got her start. Read to the end, please!
-----------------------------------------------
...the obese, oleaginous Orlando entrepreneur Louis Pearlman. A luxury-plane magnate, he met the New Kids on the Block in 1989 when they chartered one of his jets. Upon learning that they were earning more than Michael Jackson, Pearlman decided to cast his own boy group. After Pearlman hired Denniz PoP and Max Martin to write their songs, the Backstreet Boys went from playing in front of Shamu's tank at SeaWorld to selling out world tours. Millennium, released in 1999, is one of the best-selling albums in American history. Pearlman then decided to start an identical boy band, performing songs by the same songwriters. "My feeling was, where there's McDonald's, there's Burger King," Pearlman tells Seabrook on the phone from the federal prison in Texarkana, where he is serving a 25-year sentence for defrauding banks and investors in Ponzi schemes. Pearlman was a poor businessman but a savvy promoter. 'NSync, led by Justin Timberlake, formerly of The Mickey Mouse Club, was even bigger than the Backstreet Boys. Next, seeking his own Debbie Gibson, Pearlman scouted another ex-Mouseketeer: Britney Spears.


----------



## Marschallin Blair

KenOC said:


> It was the same flaccid, bald tenured who wrote how Britney Spears got her start. Read to the end, please!
> -----------------------------------------------
> ...the obese, oleaginous Orlando entrepreneur Louis Pearlman. A luxury-plane magnate, he met the New Kids on the Block in 1989 when they chartered one of his jets. Upon learning that they were earning more than Michael Jackson, Pearlman decided to cast his own boy group. After Pearlman hired Denniz PoP and Max Martin to write their songs, the Backstreet Boys went from playing in front of Shamu's tank at SeaWorld to selling out world tours. Millennium, released in 1999, is one of the best-selling albums in American history. Pearlman then decided to start an identical boy band, performing songs by the same songwriters. "My feeling was, where there's McDonald's, there's Burger King," Pearlman tells Seabrook on the phone from the federal prison in Texarkana, where he is serving a 25-year sentence for defrauding banks and investors in Ponzi schemes. Pearlman was a poor businessman but a savvy promoter. 'NSync, led by Justin Timberlake, formerly of The Mickey Mouse Club, was even bigger than the Backstreet Boys. Next, seeking his own Debbie Gibson, Pearlman scouted another ex-Mouseketeer: Britney Spears.


So she was in a mentorship program.

Point?

If you don't have bankeable looks, then bankroll those who do?


----------



## Guest

Anyone who listens to this idiotic shytte needs to shot and for that reason I vigorously oppose gun control.


----------



## Guest

Marschallin Blair said:


> ^*** Criticizing a posting style is a violation of the TC TOS.***
> 
> _Hiiiiiiiiii-eeeeeeeeee. Byyyyyyy-eeeeeeeeeeee._


It wasn't a criticism of posting style. It was me saying "I do not understand that. Please say how you are " resonating."


----------



## isorhythm

There is very little music that actually makes me angry to hear but both Britney Spears and Milton Babbitt have produced some of it. It's a remarkable pairing.

Britney was the leading figure of mainstream American pop music in its darkest hour. It got a lot better starting around 2003.


----------



## Marschallin Blair

isorhythm said:


> There is very little music that actually makes me angry to hear but both Britney Spears and Milton Babbitt have produced some of it. It's a remarkable pairing.
> 
> Britney was the leading figure of mainstream American pop music in its darkest hour. It got a lot better starting around 2003.


Well, ' ' that's ' ' debatable.


----------



## Dr Johnson

I think I have stumbled across some sort of sociological documentary about the Britney phenomenon.

I share it with you all:


----------



## Guest

KenOC said:


> I think people who criticize Britney Spears are missing an important point. Britney Spears is not a person but a product, created, managed, and marketed by a high-powered team of very talented people. Her success is not measured in esthetic terms but by market penetration, profit margins, net revenues, and so forth.
> 
> From our usual point of view here, criticizing Britney Spears is like criticizing corn flakes.


Well yes but that is obvious and is true of pop acts generally. As an individual she is "lucky" to have been in the right place at the right time and has got material wealth accordingly. Her "talent", like countless others, was to aspire to fame, fortune and celebrity. Creativity, ability, an artistic drive, are secondary at best, or irrelevant. It is a world of commerce. Maximising punter sales is the game, that's all. If by "usual point of view" you mean critical assessment then yes, as you imply, that is irrelevant. Cornflake boxes or CDs, it's the same game of capitalist exploitation.


----------



## Marschallin Blair

Victor Redseal said:


> Anyone who listens to this idiotic shytte needs to shot and for that reason I vigorously oppose gun control.


_^ I need be shot because I listen to Britney Spears?_

Oh, do 'I' have a good thing to say back- Ha. Ha. Ha. Ha. - but the TC TOS expressly forbids it.

Too bad this isn't a totally free forum.

Hail Britania!


----------



## Marschallin Blair

dogen said:


> Well yes but that is obvious and is true of pop acts generally. As an individual she is "lucky" to have been in the right place at the right time and has got material wealth accordingly. Her "talent", like countless others, was to aspire to fame, fortune and celebrity. Creativity, ability, an artistic drive, are secondary at best, or irrelevant. It is a world of commerce. Maximising punter sales is the game, that's all. If by "usual point of view" you mean critical assessment then yes, as you imply, that is irrelevant. Cornflake boxes or CDs, it's the same game of capitalist exploitation.


- "Capitalist exploitation"-

What's that?

Is it when two or more people voluntarily come together for mutually-beneficial exchange?

Of course, those with nothing to 'OFFER' in terms of beauty, enterprise, entrepreneurship, or talent 'will always' have an animus against those who do.


----------



## KenOC

Dr Johnson said:


> Like Barbie?


Exactly like Barbie. What's the point in criticizing Barbie, except maybe on grounds of public policy?


----------



## Guest

Blair, I'm still waiting to hear how you're like Elle.


----------



## Guest

KenOC said:


> Exactly like Barbie. What's the point in criticizing Barbie, except maybe on grounds of public policy?


Maybe the profit margins could be improved with cheaper materials?


----------



## Guest

Marschallin Blair said:


> - "Capitalist exploitation"-
> 
> What's that?
> 
> Is it when two or more people voluntarily come together for mutually-beneficial exchange?
> 
> Of course, those with nothing to 'OFFER' in terms of beauty, enterprise, entrepreneurship, or talent 'will always' have an animus against those who do.


Maybe exploitation doesn't exist in your world. Who knows.


----------



## Dr Johnson

Once upon a time "capitalist exploitation" had something real to offer: The Beatles, The Stones, the Kinks, The Who, The Small Faces, The Beach Boys, The Byrds, The Supremes, Marvin Gaye, Curtis Mayfield, Led Zeppelin, James Brown, Sparks, Rose Royce, Stevie Wonder, The Isley Brothers, Sly & The Family Stone, Martha Reeves, Irma Thomas, Otis Redding, David Bowie, Marc Bolan, The Jam, The Damned, The Stranglers, Squeeze, Elvis Costello, Ian Dury, Devo, Blondie, Talking Heads, etc etc.

But by the time we arrive at the auto-tuned bouncy pap of Britney _et hoc genus omne_, we are not even talking about fool's gold, but lumps of coke sloppily dipped (if even that) in whitewash.


----------



## Marschallin Blair

Dr Johnson said:


> I think I have stumbled across some sort of sociological documentary about the Britney phenomenon.
> 
> I share it with you all:


Cute.

Sharon and Alaska are way better commediennes though.


----------



## KenOC

dogen said:


> Maybe the profit margins could be improved with cheaper materials?


I'm sure that Mattel watches the cost of its raw materials quite closely. But Barbie dolls are positioned at the high end of that market, and can only maintain their position with durability and other characteristics that customers expect at their price point. Good materials also contribute to the long-term value of the brand.


----------



## Ingélou

This thread is a bit like the Cloaca Maxima in Rome - drains off a lot of 'stuff', but the occasional curiosity floats by.

Milton Babbitt and Britney Spears were just names to me.

I did an experiment. I selected two short videos on YT - Philomel by MB & Perfume by BS - and listened.

I looked at the poll choices. Purely & simply either/or.

*I decided not to vote.*

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
_Philomel was witchy & interesting, but I wouldn't like to listen to it for longer than 10 minutes; Perfume was nondescript, but not unpleasant. It was a choice between pickled herring and candy floss._


----------



## Mahlerian

isorhythm said:


> There is very little music that actually makes me angry to hear but both Britney Spears and Milton Babbitt have produced some of it. It's a remarkable pairing.


Why get angry at Milton Babbitt? The constant interplay and protean textures can get a bit tiring for long stretches, I'll admit, but in short bursts I enjoy his music a good deal.

For the record, I don't find Britney Spears makes me angry, either; to me she's just the same as any other pop star, and her music is about the relative level of theirs too.


----------



## Dr Johnson

Mahlerian said:


> Why get angry at Milton Babbitt? The constant interplay and protean textures can get a bit tiring for long stretches, I'll admit, *but in short bursts I enjoy his music a good deal*.


Whereas even short bursts of Britney....

.....but this is even easier than shooting fish in the proverbial barrel.

Bouncy, bouncy, bouncy,

bouncy,bouncy pap, etc etc.


----------



## Dr Johnson

KenOC said:


> Exactly like Barbie. What's the point in criticizing Barbie, except maybe on grounds of public policy?


I'm not criticising _Barbie_....


----------



## Blancrocher

*Post has been deleted*


----------



## KenOC

Mahlerian said:


> For the record, I don't find Britney Spears makes me angry, either; to me she's just the same as any other pop star, and her music is about the relative level of theirs too.


May be a reason for this. "Millions of Swifties and KatyCats-as well as Beliebers, Barbz, and Selenators, and the Rihanna Navy-would be stunned by the revelation that a handful of people, a crazily high percentage of them middle-aged Scandinavian men, write most of America's pop hits."


----------



## KenOC

Dr Johnson said:


> I'm not criticising _Barbie_....


I know. I was just looping back to the (similar) idea of criticizing Britney Spears. Very similar products in some ways.


----------



## Marschallin Blair

Mahlerian said:


> Why get angry at Milton Babbitt? The constant interplay and protean textures can get a bit tiring for long stretches, I'll admit, but in short bursts I enjoy his music a good deal.


. . . and as an addendum: Why get mad at Britney?

The seamless choreographic kaleidoscopic dovetailing on stage of leather and lace, lights and sets, flounces and skirts, hot pants and hair flying, knee-high boots and platform wedges- is a modern-day _Song of Solomon. _


----------



## Marschallin Blair

dogen said:


> Maybe exploitation doesn't exist in your world. Who knows.


Of course it does. Its called 'government.'

http://www.usdebtclock.org/


----------



## SeptimalTritone

You know, Babbitt's Philomel actually has a certain dark, mysterious, surreal, dreamy sexuality to it.


----------



## Balthazar

SeptimalTritone said:


> You know, Babbitt's Philomel actually has a certain dark, mysterious, surreal, dreamy sexuality to it.


I agree. It's one of his most enchanting works.


----------



## Marschallin Blair

KenOC said:


> Exactly like Barbie. What's the point in criticizing Barbie, except maybe on grounds of public policy?


Well, there's a time to be 'Good Barbie'

and then there's a time to be 'Bad Barbie':

The world's not always 'Pareto Optimal,' you know.

You're not going to please everyone all the time.

Britney knows what I'm talking about.


----------



## Marschallin Blair

SeptimalTritone said:


> You know, Babbitt's Philomel actually has a certain dark, mysterious, surreal, dreamy sexuality to it.


Would you honestly play that to someone when getting intimate with them?


----------



## SeptimalTritone

Marschallin Blair said:


> Would you honestly play that to someone when getting intimate with them?


If she were a woman of taste and intelligence, then yes.

However, if 'she' were a 'woman' of 'taste' and 'intelligence', then no.


----------



## SimonNZ

Marschallin Blair said:


> You're wrong- I'm over-the-hill at seventeen and she appeals to me.


Seventeen? In dog years or cat years?

Just read through all of this wonderful thread in one hit and can't help but notice that you've said not one thing about the music of BS. Your admiration for her appears to be built exclusively on her being young, magazine-style-attractive and rich.

Would you like Babbit more if the music were exactly the same but he looked more of a GQ cover star?

Can you say anything in defence of BS's music as opposed to style? (this being a music thread on a music forum - not a pop fashion thread on a tween forum).



Marschallin Blair said:


> - 'a tall, thin, runway-model's build.'


I think I speak for many when I say: we're dying to see photos to back up these boasts.


----------



## SimonNZ

Marschallin Blair said:


> When one's doors are opened for them and VIP cordons are automatically dropped- and one doesn't even have to use the Force to do it- then 'yes' this doesn't actually constitute a 'job,' but it does constitute 'fierce.'
> 
> - Which of course is the capstone of the aesthetic pyramid.
> 
> <VIP cordon is raised> _"Right this way, Miss Spears." _<Cordon goes down.> _"Not so fast, Mr. Babbitt."
> _


Reminds me of a comedy routine Ben Elton had about bouncers. Something like: "Himmler, looking sharp, love the coat, love the boots. Jesus, no sandals, sod off."

And love the "of course" you put into your unique worldview there.


----------



## Pugg

SimonNZ said:


> Seventeen? In dog years or cat years?
> 
> Just read through all of this wonderful thread in one hit and can't help but notice that you've said not one thing about the music of BS. Your admiration for her appears to be built exclusively on her being young, magazine-style-attractive and rich.
> 
> Would you like Babbit more if the music were exactly the same but he looked more of a GQ cover star?
> 
> Can you say anything in defence of BS's music as opposed to style? (this being a music thread on a music forum - not a pop fashion thread on a tween forum).
> 
> I think I speak for many when I say: we're dying to see photos to back up these boasts.


By that time we also see pigs fly Simon:tiphat::lol:


----------



## KenOC

SimonNZ said:


> Reminds me of a comedy routine Ben Elton had about bouncers. Something like: "Himmler, looking sharp, love the coat, love the boots. Jesus, no sandals, sod off."


Ooooh, naaaaaaaaasty! Waiting anxiously for Blair's response.


----------



## Dr Johnson

KenOC said:


> I know. I was just looping back to the (similar) idea of criticizing Britney Spears. Very similar products in some ways.


I think Barbie is the better singer.


----------



## SimonNZ

KenOC said:


> I know. I was just looping back to the (similar) idea of criticizing Britney Spears. Very similar products in some ways.


Continuing the tradition of warping young girls' ideas of body image and femininity.


----------



## Dim7

SimonNZ said:


> Continuing the tradition of warping young girls' ideas of body image and femininity.


Yeah, like the Bratz dolls do.


----------



## Ingélou

SimonNZ said:


> Reminds me of a comedy routine Ben Elton had about bouncers. Something like: "Himmler, looking sharp, love the coat, love the boots. Jesus, no sandals, sod off."


Hadn't heard that one before! :lol:
It has quite a philosophic undertoe.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



SeptimalTritone said:


> You know, Babbitt's Philomel actually has a certain dark, mysterious, surreal, dreamy sexuality to it.





Balthazar said:


> I agree. It's one of his most enchanting works.


Lucky me, that picking at random, I hit upon one of his best! 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Farewell, Strange Thread. :wave:


----------



## Guest

Ingélou said:


> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> 
> Farewell, Strange Thread. :wave:


Some things cannot be satirised.


----------



## Blancrocher

According to Wikipedia, Babbitt took up the violin at 4, but soon switched to clarinet and saxophone, whereas Spears sang and acted since her early childhood. While both were precocious, this early indication of fickleness in Babbitt's character disconcerts me.


----------



## Marschallin Blair

SeptimalTritone said:


> If she were a woman of taste and intelligence, then yes.
> 
> However, if 'she' were a 'woman' of 'taste' and 'intelligence', then no.


- Double order of _no hot_ and _no fierce_ then- check.


----------



## Marschallin Blair

SimonNZ said:


> Reminds me of a comedy routine Ben Elton had about bouncers. Something like: "Himmler, looking sharp, love the coat, love the boots. Jesus, no sandals, sod off."
> And love the "of course" you put into your unique worldview there.


Since when are National Socialist bouncers from Down Under known for their IQ's? . . . . . . or their taste?


----------



## Marschallin Blair

dogen said:


> Some things cannot be satirised.


Q.v. the _Politics and Religion_ thread.


----------



## Marschallin Blair

SimonNZ said:


> Continuing the tradition of warping young girls' ideas of body image and femininity.


Well, not everyone's idea of femininity is a tractor tarp over a hipster cow.


----------



## Marschallin Blair

Pugg said:


> By that time we also see pigs fly Simon:tiphat::lol:


Or even spell. .....................


----------



## Marschallin Blair

Ingélou said:


> This thread is a bit like the Cloaca Maxima in Rome - drains off a lot of 'stuff', but the occasional curiosity floats by.


Speaking of the flotsam and jetsam and floating expletives of the Activity Stream Cloaca, have you seen the Politics and 'Religion' thread?- only there's no occasional curiosity.


----------



## Blancrocher

Marschallin Blair said:


> Speaking of the flotsam and jetsam and floating expletives of the Activity Stream Cloaca, have you seen the Politics and 'Religion' thread?


I haven't--I never look at trivial threads.


----------



## Guest

Horses for courses, of course(s). Some like an excess of glamour (yawn!) and some like...politics and religion in music, I guess.


----------



## Marschallin Blair

SimonNZ said:


> Seventeen? In dog years or cat years?


How does your counting in dog years keep it Simple Simon?



SimonNZ said:


> I think I speak for many when I say: we're dying to see photos to back up these boasts.


You wouldn't be able to handle yourself if I posted any.

Though, of course I'm sure a few of your friends could help you out. . .

What kind of biological androids post proprietary information about themselves on the Web, anyway? What kind of trolls or stalkers solicit it from others?


----------



## Marschallin Blair

MacLeod said:


> Horses for courses, of course(s). Some like an excess of glamour (yawn!) and some like...politics and religion in music, I guess.


I'm sorry.

Were you saying something?


----------



## Dr Johnson

Marschallin Blair said:


> You wouldn't be able to handle yourself if I posted any.
> 
> Though, of course I'm sure a few of your friends could help you out. . .
> 
> What kind of biological androids posts proprietary information about themselves on the Web, anyway? What kind of trolls or stalkers solicits it from others?


He doesn't want to see your face, pet. He just wants you to get your baps oot for the lads.


----------



## Guest

Marschallin Blair said:


> I'm sorry.
> 
> Were you saying something?


Yes. I said some of us like politics









and religion









and not an excess (ie the tiresome giant photos...) of glamour!


----------



## Guest

Dr Johnson said:


> get your baps oot for the lads.


Shall a git mon oot? About as relevant as Spears!


----------



## Dr Johnson

dogen said:


> Shall a git mon oot? About as relevant as Spears!


Steady on. Let's not all lose our heads.


----------



## Morimur

Git er done!
**********

http://stevehartflorida.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/*******.jpg


----------



## isorhythm

SeptimalTritone said:


> You know, Babbitt's Philomel actually has a certain dark, mysterious, surreal, dreamy sexuality to it.


Yep this is the one Babbitt piece I really like!

Most of it I'm pretty indifferent to.

The one that made me angry is "All Set."


----------



## KenOC

Blancrocher said:


> I haven't--I never look at trivial threads.


You...wait...now I've got a headache.


----------



## Marschallin Blair

Dr Johnson said:


> He doesn't want to see your face, pet. He just wants you to get your baps oot for the lads.


Did his mother raise him with a bag on her head or something?


----------



## Bulldog

Remove the dancing and fine bodies; what's left is crummy music.


----------



## Marschallin Blair

Bulldog said:


> Remove the dancing and fine bodies; what's left is crummy music.


Not if you're the one dancing.


----------



## Balthazar

Interestingly, Britney and Babbitt have both played a role in US wartime efforts.

During World War II, the brilliant polymath Babbitt joined the mathematics faculty at Princeton and divided his time between Princeton and Washington D.C., where he worked on secret military projects.

Britney Spears also has a connection with the US government. The CIA chose her music to play around the clock in an effort to psychologically break prisoners at Guantanamo Bay. While I do not condone such inhumane actions, I imagine it would be very effective.

The Britney Bludgeon: A Weapon of Torture

Guantanamo Interrogators Torture Inmates with Britney Spears


----------



## Marschallin Blair

Balthazar said:


> Interestingly, Britney and Babbitt have both played a role in US wartime efforts.
> 
> During World War II, the brilliant polymath Babbitt joined the mathematics faculty at Princeton and divided his time between Princeton and Washington D.C., where he worked on secret military projects.
> 
> Britney Spears also has a connection with the US government. The CIA chose her music to play around the clock in an effort to psychologically break prisoners at Guantanamo Bay. While I do not condone such actions, I imagine it would be very effective.
> 
> The Britney Bludgeon: A Weapon of Torture
> 
> Guantanamo Interrogators Torture Inmates with Britney Spears


They're wasting time and precious taxpayers' money.

They could have tracked "Onward Christian Soliders" to_ Repons_ and achieved total submission in twenty minutes.


----------



## Dr Johnson

Balthazar said:


> Interestingly, Britney and Babbitt have both played a role in US wartime efforts.
> 
> During World War II, the brilliant polymath Babbitt joined the mathematics faculty at Princeton and divided his time between Princeton and Washington D.C., where he worked on secret military projects.
> 
> Britney Spears also has a connection with the US government. The CIA chose her music to play around the clock in an effort to psychologically break prisoners at Guantanamo Bay. While I do not condone such inhumane actions, I imagine it would be very effective.
> 
> The Britney Bludgeon: A Weapon of Torture
> 
> Guantanamo Interrogators Torture Inmates with Britney Spears


I remember someone telling me (over 10 years ago) that prisoners at Guantanamo were being tormented with bouncy pap. I didn't know it was specifically Britney. Well, well.


----------



## SimonNZ

wow...I had rock-bottom expectations for a reply to my post, and yet I'm _still_ disappointed.

Want to try another swing at it? Take your time this time. Don't rush. Actually engage with the questions.



SimonNZ said:


> Just read through all of this wonderful thread in one hit and can't help but notice that you've said not one thing about the music of BS. Your admiration for her appears to be built exclusively on her being young, magazine-style-attractive and rich.
> 
> Would you like Babbit more if the music were exactly the same but he looked more of a GQ cover star?
> 
> Can you say anything in defence of BS's music as opposed to style? (this being a music thread on a music forum - not a pop fashion thread on a tween forum).


As a bonus for you, here's one of those non-ToS approved *comments on your posting style* I know you love:

If you're going to make-believe you're seventeen in some threads you really shouldn't reminisce about rock gigs you saw in the 1980s in others.


----------



## Balthazar

Balthazar said:


> Jim Stark was the name of the character that James Dean played in _Rebel Without a Cause_.
> 
> Just as Khloé Kardashian was the name of the character that Lisa Whelchel played in _Keeping up with the Kardashians_.





Marschallin Blair said:


> ^ *What does Khloé Kardashian have to do with me?*- unless this is an off-topic personal attack on me which is in violation of the clearly-stated TC TOS, which it clearly is.


Wait... what???

There is no mention of you whatsoever in this post, Blair.

Could you elaborate, please...


----------



## SimonNZ

^And if the answer is that mocking the person in an avatar is (somehow) mocking the user, the what about the James Dean bashing?

But what I really want to know is: how or why is James Dean a "eunuch"?


----------



## MagneticGhost

I think Baby, One More Time is an absolute pop classic. But as Britney didn't actually write it. I feel it is probably irrelevant to the question. Does Milton Babbitt dance though?


----------



## Sloe

I really don´t dislike or like either Britney Spears or Milton Babbits music. But I think Milton Babbit´s syntheziser music is fun.
Considering Britney Spears as a pretty girl I do not really think she is that pretty.


----------



## Marschallin Blair

MacLeod said:


> Yes. I said some of us like politics
> 
> and religion
> 
> and not an excess (ie the tiresome giant photos...) of glamour!


It looks to me like its the _Moulin Rouge_ thread and not Mordor- and least not if I can help it.


----------



## SimonNZ

^What strikes me as funny is that the pics Balthazar was posting were the ones making me feel sympathy*, yours are the ones begging mockery.



*well, okay, just a little, mixed with some good old schaudenfreude


----------



## Blancrocher

Milton Babbitt was raised in Mississippi, and Britney Spears was born there. Coincidence? You be the judge.


----------



## Dim7

Hit me Babbitt one more time.


----------



## Marschallin Blair

SimonNZ said:


> ^What strikes me as funny is that the pics Balthazar was posting were the ones making me feel sympathy*, yours are the ones begging mockery.
> 
> *well, okay, just a little, mixed with some good old schaudenfreude


Speaking of the 'High Baroque of _Schadenfreude_,' rest assured, one can always count on Simon to spread the moribund and the reactionary in the spirit of egalitarian leveling.




SimonNZ said:


> If you're going to make-believe you're seventeen in some threads you really shouldn't reminisce about rock gigs you saw in the 1980s in others.


Did you ' ' really ' ' think I was seventeen, Simon?

Think before you ask these questions.

How can that be the case when people think I'm twenty-seven.




Dim7 said:


> Hit me Babbitt one more time.


_"Whip me, Britney one more time"- _I think that's what he said. But the ball was in his mouth, so I couldn't be sure.


----------



## SimonNZ

Marschallin Blair said:


> Speaking of the 'High Baroque of _Schadenfreude_,' rest assured, one can always count on Simon to spread the moribund and the reactionary in the spirit of egalitarian leveling.


Okay, lets try again:

If, seemingly, the music doesn't matter to you and its all about the image and attitude, then would you be just as taken by a successful BS impersonator?


----------



## Dim7

Lol... her initials are BS.


----------



## Marschallin Blair

Balthazar said:


> Wait... what???
> 
> There is no mention of you whatsoever in this post, Blair.
> 
> Could you elaborate, please...


You're right! There 'is' no mention of me in that post!

- Yet the lion's share of the posts on this thread are either about me or Britney.

Ha. Ha. Ha. Ha.

Don't worry, I tend to have that usurping effect when I enter the room.




Dim7 said:


> Lol... her initials are BS.


_- *B*itte *S*chön - _

She always graces the Lower Orders with her presence.




SimonNZ said:


> Okay, lets try again:
> 
> If, seemingly, the music doesn't matter to you and its all about the image and attitude, then would you be just as taken by a successful BS impersonator?


Well, I'm 'Elle's' blonde analogue and not Britney's.

But _*B*itte *S*chön _ all the same.


----------



## Guest

SimonNZ said:


> Okay, lets try again:
> 
> If, seemingly, the music doesn't matter to you and its all about the image and attitude, then would you be just as taken by a successful BS impersonator?


I think that's a question he's determined not to answer. You'd understand why.


----------



## SimonNZ

edit: x-post

Are you even reading the questions put to you, or just posting random non-sequiturs?

Impress us (heck, _persuade_ us) by actually answering a question:

1. If, seemingly, the music doesn't matter to you and its all about the image and attitude, then would you be just as taken by a successful BS impersonator?

2. Would you like Babbit if his music were exactly the same, but he personally looked and acted in a manner more to your pleasing?


----------



## SimonNZ

dogen said:


> I think that's a question he's determined not to answer. You'd understand why.


I get the liking the image and attitude thing, even if one isn't so hot on the music, but usually that would be expressed as "sure its trashy formula disposable bubblegum, but I love dancing to it!", and nobody would have a problem with that.


----------



## Blancrocher

Both wrote explosive music. Britney Spears, of course, wowed audiences with her modern classic "Tik Tik Boom." But Milton Babbitt outflanked her with Four--I repeat, Four!!--Canons. 

Another win for Babbitt.


----------



## Abraham Lincoln

Where's the "I don't know who these people are" option?


----------



## Balthazar

SimonNZ said:


> ^And if the answer is that mocking the person in an avatar is (somehow) mocking the user, then what about the James Dean bashing?


In the absence of a reply from Blair, I was thinking it might be that James Dean's legacy to 20th century Western culture is a bit more secure than Lisa Whelchel's…

But then I recalled that enduring contribution to contemporary Christian rock -- Whelchel's 1984 smash album _All Because of You_.

We all remember those great hits -- _Love Believer_, _Good Girl_, and _Sing Me to Sleep_. Whelchel even received a Grammy nomination for Best Inspirational Performance, but ironically lost out to Donna Summer's "He's a Rebel."

To bring back those good times, here's Lisa with _Cover Me Lord_:






Does anyone else hear a heavy influence on Britney's _oeuvre_?


----------



## Guest

Balthazar said:


> Does anyone else hear a heavy influence on Britney's _oeuvre_?


Insofar as it might have prompted her to be sinful, yes!


----------



## SimonNZ

Wait a minute...

Both Britney Spears *and Lisa Whelchel* were Mouseketeers.

Is this just a coincidence?

(And remember Blair: every time you duck a question boogeymam Karl Marx eats another kitten)

Yup: the Mickey Mouse Club - boot camp for the "fierce" woman of "attitude".


----------



## Dr Johnson

Balthazar said:


> In the absence of a reply from Blair, I was thinking it might be that James Dean's legacy to 20th century Western culture is a bit more secure than Lisa Whelchel's…
> 
> But then I recalled that enduring contribution to contemporary Christian rock -- Whelchel's 1984 smash album _All Because of You_.
> 
> We all remember those great hits -- _Love Believer_, _Good Girl_, and _Sing Me to Sleep_. Whelchel even received a Grammy nomination for Best Inspirational Performance, but ironically lost out to Donna Summer's "He's a Rebel."
> 
> To bring back those good times, here's Lisa with _Cover Me Lord_:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Does anyone else hear a heavy influence on Britney's _oeuvre_?


I lived in blissful ignorance of Lisa Welchel until this thread.

Sometimes curiosity leads one to peer too closely into the abyss....


----------



## KenOC

Classical music has its lady composers too! Here's one. With a bit of dolling up, she should look just like Barbie. Don't you think?










I bet Brahms would like that. Hubba hubba!


----------



## TurnaboutVox

Yes, we've made some real steps forward in how we portray successful professional women in the past 50 years...


----------



## KenOC

TurnaboutVox said:


> Yes, we've made some real steps forward in how we portray successful professional women in the past 50 years...


You can pass the Marketing 101 final just by remembering the phrase: Sex Sells Soap. Ask Yuja Wang, who has quite a collection of images on the 'net. It's a trend I approve of, BTW.

I tried this with artfully semi-clothed pictures of myself. Didn't seem to work. Still trying to figure out why.


----------



## Bulldog

SimonNZ said:


> edit: x-post
> 
> Are you even reading the questions put to you, or just posting random non-sequiturs?
> 
> Impress us (heck, _persuade_ us) by actually answering a question:
> 
> 1. If, seemingly, the music doesn't matter to you and its all about the image and attitude, then would you be just as taken by a successful BS impersonator?
> 
> 2. Would you like Babbit if his music were exactly the same, but he personally looked and acted in a manner more to your pleasing?


This is an entirely silly thread, so I'm surprised you aren't treating it that way.


----------



## Arsakes




----------



## SimonNZ

Bulldog said:


> This is an entirely silly thread, so I'm surprised you aren't treating it that way.


I know from long experience that Blair's replies on these matters are dead serious, and I'm genuinely interested in the mechanics of his preference for "beauty" (with a small b) above all other manifestations of Art, if he could just tackle the question head on.

The record should also show I have no problem with The Silly.


----------



## Sloe

SimonNZ said:


> I know from long experience that Blair's replies on these matters are dead serious, and I'm genuinely interested in the mechanics of his preference for "beauty" (with a small b) above all other manifestations of Art, if he could just tackle the question head on.
> 
> The record should also show I have no problem with The Silly.


Beauty is essential in art. The music I like is the music that sounds beautiful then there are others who have other opinions of what is beautiful. Then there can be other aspects that can be appealing too. I think most of Milton Babbits music is a bit boring and I feel the same for Britney Spears.


----------



## Flamme

This topic reminded me of


----------



## Blancrocher

KenOC said:


> You can pass the Marketing 101 final just by remembering the phrase: Sex Sells Soap. Ask Yuja Wang, who has quite a collection of images on the 'net. It's a trend I approve of, BTW.


However, in my opinion the great master of this form of marketing is of course Milton Babbitt. You may have missed the subtle _double entendre_ here, but even so I'm sure it has a subliminal effect:









Much more effective than the puerile titillation of a Britney Spears album cover, imho.


----------



## Guest

Bulldog said:


> This is an entirely silly thread, so I'm surprised you aren't treating it that way.


Truth can come through various means, one is sillyness.


----------



## Guest

KenOC said:


> You can pass the Marketing 101 final just by remembering the phrase: Sex Sells Soap. Ask Yuja Wang, who has quite a collection of images on the 'net. It's a trend I approve of, BTW.
> 
> I tried this with artfully semi-clothed pictures of myself. Didn't seem to work. Still trying to figure out why.


Maybe the lighting wasn't flattering on your moobs.


----------



## SimonNZ

Now that most of the pictures have been deleted this thread is going to be an even more bizarre read for anyone who stumbles across it. ("want some bacon with your muffin tops?" _what_??)


----------



## Balthazar

^ And why am I so distressed about my fan base?


----------



## SimonNZ

I would have liked to have had one of that image you used about twenty times preserved. Maybe you could send me a link.


----------



## KenOC

Simon, who are you speaking to?


----------



## SimonNZ

KenOC said:


> Simon, who are you speaking to?


Balthazar...he of the post before mine.

I was referring to the image of the drag queen with with the glasses and the heavy blue make-up.


----------



## KenOC

SimonNZ said:


> Balthazar...he of the post before mine.


Oh. I thought you maybe wanted that picture of me. I'm in my underwear with a can of beer and a cigar. Quite fetching, really. :tiphat:


----------



## Marschallin Blair

****CENSORSHIP AT TC****

Its utterly fatuous to me how beautiful, cute, and sassy pictures of Britney Spears on a Britney Spears 'thread' are DELETED by TC.

Why does a TC moderator do this?

Do beauty, dancing, and sensuality pose as some sort of a 'threat' to some people?

Or are there other reasons?

Of the fifty-nine Britney Spears pictures that I posted, fifty-five were deleted. Actually, the amount of pictures I posted was much higher than that because sometimes I uploaded two and three pictures to a post.

Anyway, conservatively speaking, this breaks down to a 93% censorship ratio.

The only pictures which remain from my original postings are four on pages: 12, 13, 14, and 18.

How does this TC censorship work?- and I deliberately say 'censorship' because its clearly not "editing."

Cute, wholesome sensuality is banned- but trolling ugliness and sexually-harassing posts are allowed to stand, in defiance of the TC TOS, which expressly states:

_»Trolling« is not welcome. A »troll« is someone who intentionally posts derogatory or inflammatory messages with the deliberate intent to bait users into responding, ranging from subtle jibes to outright personal attacks.

Do not post comments about other members person or »posting style« on the forum (unless said comments are unmistakably positive). Argue opinions all you like but do not get personal and never resort to »ad homs«._

http://www.talkclassical.com/faq.php?faq=policies

As per example of what I'm talking about, witness the following selective enforcement of the TC TOS. I've highlighted each instance by putting a triple-asterick (***) in front of the violation.

*** The trolling posts at 131 and 135 on page nine are allowed to remain on the thread- that is to say, the ones which are hideously-ugly pictures of Britney Spears (_but yet 93% of my 'wholesome' Britney Spears pictures were__ removed_):

http://www.talkclassical.com/40352-milton-babbitt-vs-britney-9.html

*** *The sexual harassment of post 269 on page 18 is allowed to stand by TC moderation as well*- the post where a TC member tells me that his friend doesn't want to see my face, but rather wants me to get my boobs out for his friends. Or, as he put it verbatim:

"He doesn't want to see your face, pet. He just wants you to get your baps oot for the lads."

http://www.talkclassical.com/40352-milton-babbitt-vs-britney-18.html#post961731

(Which one woman actually 'liked.')

*** Then there's the unwholesome and unedifying comment which was allowed to stand by TC moderation at post 226 where a poster thinks that Britney Spears fans should be shot:

"Anyone who listens to this idiotic shytte needs to shot and for that reason I vigorously oppose gun control."

http://www.talkclassical.com/40352-milton-babbitt-vs-britney-16.html#post961320

***Post 217 is allowed to stand by TC moderation where a TC member comments on my posting style by calling it "psychobabble":

http://www.talkclassical.com/40352-milton-babbitt-vs-britney-15.html#post961300

What then is the TC criteria which allows for:

- sexual harassment-

-personal attacks-

-and trolling vitriol-

to remain posted-

_but at the same time goes out of its way to laboriously comb through two-hundred and ninety four posts (that's where my last one currently ends as of the writing of this posting) to delete wholesome, cute, and alluringly photogenic Britney Spears pictures?_

Because what ever 'criteria' is being used- if I may even call it such- has nothing to do with the TOS at TC. . .

Behold now the Tale of the TC Censorship Tape:

Post #39:

http://www.talkclassical.com/40352-milton-babbitt-vs-britney-3.html#post959594

Last edited by Taggart; Today at 16:02.

--

Post #43:

http://www.talkclassical.com/40352-milton-babbitt-vs-britney-3.html#post959618

Last edited by Taggart; Today at 16:03.

--

Post #50:

http://www.talkclassical.com/40352-milton-babbitt-vs-britney-4.html#post959795

Last edited by Taggart; Yesterday at 16:03.

--

Post #57:

http://www.talkclassical.com/40352-milton-babbitt-vs-britney-4.html#post959994

Last edited by Taggart; Yesterday at 16:03.

--

Post #63

http://www.talkclassical.com/40352-milton-babbitt-vs-britney-5.html#post960011

Last edited by Taggart; Yesterday at 16:04

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Post #66

http://www.talkclassical.com/40352-milton-babbitt-vs-britney-5.html#post960020

Last edited by Taggart; Yesterday at 16:04.

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Post #68

http://www.talkclassical.com/40352-milton-babbitt-vs-britney-5.html#post960031

Last edited by Taggart; Yesterday at 16:05.

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Post #71 (where I posted pictures of Martin Anderson's and John Sykes' books as proof of my contentions to Balthasar; which, when deleted by TC make the original post appear as if I was not proving my case)

http://www.talkclassical.com/40352-milton-babbitt-vs-britney-5.html#post960081

Last edited by Taggart; Yesterday at 16:05.

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Post #72:

http://www.talkclassical.com/40352-milton-babbitt-vs-britney-5.html#post960138

Last edited by Taggart; Yesterday at 16:05.

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Post #75:

http://www.talkclassical.com/40352-milton-babbitt-vs-britney-5.html#post960145

Last edited by Taggart; Yesterday at 16:06.

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Post #82:

http://www.talkclassical.com/40352-milton-babbitt-vs-britney-6.html#post960352

Last edited by Taggart; Yesterday at 16:06.

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Post #86:

http://www.talkclassical.com/40352-milton-babbitt-vs-britney-6.html#post960371

Last edited by Taggart; Yesterday at 16:07.

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Post #88:

http://www.talkclassical.com/40352-milton-babbitt-vs-britney-6.html#post960379

Last edited by Taggart; Yesterday at 16:07.

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Post #91:

http://www.talkclassical.com/40352-milton-babbitt-vs-britney-7.html#post960531

Last edited by Taggart; Yesterday at 16:07.

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Post #94:

http://www.talkclassical.com/40352-milton-babbitt-vs-britney-7.html#post960749

Last edited by Taggart; Yesterday at 16:08.

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Post #97:

http://www.talkclassical.com/40352-milton-babbitt-vs-britney-7.html#post960796

Last edited by Taggart; Yesterday at 16:08.

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Post #102:

http://www.talkclassical.com/40352-milton-babbitt-vs-britney-7.html#post960835

Last edited by Marschallin Blair; Oct-23-2015 at 03:45.

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Post #104:

http://www.talkclassical.com/40352-milton-babbitt-vs-britney-7.html#post960837

Last edited by Taggart; Yesterday at 16:09.

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Post #107:

http://www.talkclassical.com/40352-milton-babbitt-vs-britney-8.html#post960846

Last edited by Taggart; Yesterday at 10:12.

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Post #110:

http://www.talkclassical.com/40352-milton-babbitt-vs-britney-8.html#post960871

Last edited by Taggart; Yesterday at 10:13.

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Post #112:

http://www.talkclassical.com/40352-milton-babbitt-vs-britney-8.html#post960878

Last edited by Taggart; Yesterday at 10:13.

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Post #115:

http://www.talkclassical.com/40352-milton-babbitt-vs-britney-8.html#post960882

Last edited by Taggart; Yesterday at 10:14.

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Post #117:

http://www.talkclassical.com/40352-milton-babbitt-vs-britney-8.html#post960886

Last edited by Marschallin Blair; Oct-23-2015 at 06:46.

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Post #119:

http://www.talkclassical.com/40352-milton-babbitt-vs-britney-8.html#post960896

Last edited by Taggart; Yesterday at 10:15.

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Post #123:

http://www.talkclassical.com/40352-milton-babbitt-vs-britney-9.html#post960904

Last edited by Taggart; Yesterday at 10:08.

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Post #125:

http://www.talkclassical.com/40352-milton-babbitt-vs-britney-9.html#post960907

Last edited by Taggart; Yesterday at 10:09.

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Post #128:

http://www.talkclassical.com/40352-milton-babbitt-vs-britney-9.html#post960918

Last edited by Taggart; Yesterday at 10:10.

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Post #130:

http://www.talkclassical.com/40352-milton-babbitt-vs-britney-9.html#post960922

Last edited by Taggart; Yesterday at 10:10.

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Post #133

http://www.talkclassical.com/40352-milton-babbitt-vs-britney-9.html#post960927

Last edited by Taggart; Yesterday at 10:11.

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Post #137:

http://www.talkclassical.com/40352-milton-babbitt-vs-britney-10.html#post960938

Last edited by Taggart; Yesterday at 10:06.

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Post #142:

http://www.talkclassical.com/40352-milton-babbitt-vs-britney-10.html#post960955

Last edited by Taggart; Yesterday at 10:06.

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Post #143:

http://www.talkclassical.com/40352-milton-babbitt-vs-britney-10.html#post960958

Last edited by Taggart; Yesterday at 10:06.

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Post #152:

http://www.talkclassical.com/40352-milton-babbitt-vs-britney-11.html#post961124

Last edited by Taggart; Yesterday at 10:03.

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Post #156:

http://www.talkclassical.com/40352-milton-babbitt-vs-britney-11.html#post961132

Last edited by Taggart; Yesterday at 10:07.

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Post #161:

http://www.talkclassical.com/40352-milton-babbitt-vs-britney-11.html#post961149

Last edited by Taggart; Yesterday at 10:04.

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Post #164:

http://www.talkclassical.com/40352-milton-babbitt-vs-britney-11.html#post961156

Last edited by Taggart; Yesterday at 10:05.

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Post #170:

http://www.talkclassical.com/40352-milton-babbitt-vs-britney-12.html#post961174

Last edited by Taggart; Yesterday at 10:02.

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Post #171:

http://www.talkclassical.com/40352-milton-babbitt-vs-britney-12.html#post961177

Last edited by Taggart; Yesterday at 10:02.

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Post #174:

http://www.talkclassical.com/40352-milton-babbitt-vs-britney-12.html#post961184

Last edited by Taggart; Yesterday at 10:02.

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Post #192 (an interesting choice of censorship as the picture of the heavy metal band cd cover 'Immortal' is allowed to remain on the post, but 'not' the cute picture of Britney Spears that was originally under it)

http://www.talkclassical.com/40352-milton-babbitt-vs-britney-13.html#post961222

Last edited by Taggart; Yesterday at 10:01.

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Post #204

http://www.talkclassical.com/40352-milton-babbitt-vs-britney-14.html#post961254

Last edited by Taggart; Yesterday at 10:01.

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Post #212:

http://www.talkclassical.com/40352-milton-babbitt-vs-britney-15.html#post961289

Last edited by Taggart; Yesterday at 09:59.

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Post #217:

http://www.talkclassical.com/40352-milton-babbitt-vs-britney-15.html#post961300

Last edited by Taggart; Yesterday at 09:59.

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Post #219:

http://www.talkclassical.com/40352-milton-babbitt-vs-britney-15.html#post961302

Last edited by Taggart; Yesterday at 10:00.

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Post #223:

http://www.talkclassical.com/40352-milton-babbitt-vs-britney-15.html#post961315

Last edited by Taggart; Yesterday at 10:00.

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Post #226 (where someone says that Britney Spears fans should be shot- and that post is allowed to stand by TC moderation- but that the beautiful picture I had posted of Britney Spears underneath it was removed)

http://www.talkclassical.com/40352-milton-babbitt-vs-britney-16.html#post961320

Last edited by Taggart; Yesterday at 09:57.

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Post #227 (where a picture of a sociology book called Envy: A Theory of Social Behavior was censored)

http://www.talkclassical.com/40352-milton-babbitt-vs-britney-16.html#post961322

Last edited by Taggart; Yesterday at 09:58.

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Post #233 (a drag queen You Tube satire on Britney Spears is allowed to remain posted but the beautiful Britney Spears picture underneath it was removed)

http://www.talkclassical.com/40352-milton-babbitt-vs-britney-16.html#post961335

Last edited by Taggart; Yesterday at 09:58.

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Post #243:

http://www.talkclassical.com/40352-milton-babbitt-vs-britney-17.html#post961350

Last edited by Taggart; Yesterday at 09:56.

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Post #246:

http://www.talkclassical.com/40352-milton-babbitt-vs-britney-17.html#post961355

Last edited by Taggart; Yesterday at 09:57.

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Post #260:

http://www.talkclassical.com/40352-milton-babbitt-vs-britney-18.html#post961674

Last edited by Taggart; Yesterday at 09:54.

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Post #262:

http://www.talkclassical.com/40352-milton-babbitt-vs-britney-18.html#post961678

Last edited by Taggart; Yesterday at 09:55.

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Post #263:

http://www.talkclassical.com/40352-milton-babbitt-vs-britney-18.html#post961681

Last edited by Taggart; Yesterday at 09:55.

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Post #267:

http://www.talkclassical.com/40352-milton-babbitt-vs-britney-18.html#post961706

Last edited by Taggart; Yesterday at 09:56.

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Post #268:

http://www.talkclassical.com/40352-milton-babbitt-vs-britney-18.html#post961726

Last edited by Taggart; Yesterday at 09:56.

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Post #278:

http://www.talkclassical.com/40352-milton-babbitt-vs-britney-19.html#post961779

Last edited by Taggart; Yesterday at 09:53.

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Post #280:

http://www.talkclassical.com/40352-milton-babbitt-vs-britney-19.html#post961789

Last edited by Taggart; Yesterday at 09:54.

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Post #287:

http://www.talkclassical.com/40352-milton-babbitt-vs-britney-20.html#post961850

Last edited by Taggart; Yesterday at 09:51.

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Post #291:

http://www.talkclassical.com/40352-milton-babbitt-vs-britney-20.html#post961859

Last edited by Taggart; Yesterday at 09:51.

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Post #294:

http://www.talkclassical.com/40352-milton-babbitt-vs-britney-20.html#post961875

Last edited by Taggart; Yesterday at 09:53.

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Hopefully, this great picture of Britney won't be censored (again) as well:










I definitely know how she feels. . .

_. . . GREAT!!!_


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## Marschallin Blair

Balthazar said:


> *In the absence of a reply from Blair, I was thinking it might be that James Dean's legacy to 20th century Western culture is a bit more secure than Lisa Whelchel's…*


You already had a reply. . . just no the one you wanted. . .

Lisa Whelchel, 'yes,' is an ' ' ' actress ' ' ' (why do I have to spoon feed this to some people) who played the spoiled, blonde, conceited, WASPy, prepschool princess Blair Warner in the _Facts of Life_.

I love the ' ' fictional ' ' character of Blair Warner to death because it really is a great example of art imitating life- at least in my case.

Lisa wasn't really snobby, WASPy, and rich- she merely played a character who was.


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## StlukesguildOhio

I can't honestly say I've kept up reading the last dozen pages or so of this thread. Neither can I say that I am much of a Britney Spears fan (although I suspect I would rather listen to her than to Babbitt). Nevertheless... I'm having some difficulty understanding why the images of Britney posted here... in a thread entitled _Milton Babbitt vs Britney Spears_... post such a threat to the peace and harmony of TC that they must be censored. Of course, as an artist myself I am less than thrilled with any sort of censorship. Still, we have threads on Maria Callas teeming with photographs of "Our Lady". We have threads on "pretty pictures" and paintings, etc... Again, I may be wrong. I haven't kept up over the last few days or so being tied up with work and my own artistic efforts. Still, it seems the censorship here is little more than a concerted effort aimed at a single member who fails to meet the standards of "decorum" held by some others. Personally, I agree with Picasso who declared that "good taste" is the enemy of art. Neither do I imagine that "good taste", stately 19th century manners, and civility are likely to result in any sort of popularity... even on a classical music forum. One need only look to which threads have proven the most popular. But what do I know?


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## SimonNZ

Pot. 

Calling. 

The kettle.

Black.


(and I don't think "wholesome" means what you think it means)

oh, and posting the picture of a cover of a book isn't the same thing as using the actual thoughts and words from the book as a counter-argument.


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## Marschallin Blair

SimonNZ said:


> *And remember Blair: every time you duck a question boogeymam Karl Marx eats another kitten*


I wouldn't worry about Marx.

Decent people use 'trolls-for-paper' and flush Marx from every Engel.


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## Marschallin Blair

*


StlukesguildOhio said:



I can't honestly say I've kept up reading the last dozen pages or so of this thread. Neither can I say that I am much of a Britney Spears fan (although I suspect I would rather listen to her than to Babbitt). Nevertheless... I'm having some difficulty understanding why the images of Britney posted here... in a thread entitled Milton Babbitt vs Britney Spears... post such a threat to the peace and harmony of TC that they must be censored. Of course, as an artist myself I am less than thrilled with any sort of censorship. Still, we have threads on Maria Callas teeming with photographs of "Our Lady". We have threads on "pretty pictures" and paintings, etc... Again, I may be wrong. I haven't kept up over the last few days or so being tied up with work and my own artistic efforts. Still, it seems the censorship here is little more than a concerted effort aimed at a single member who fails to meet the standards of "decorum" held by some others. Personally, I agree with Picasso who declared that "good taste" is the enemy of art. Neither do I imagine that "good taste", stately 19th century manners, and civility are likely to result in any sort of popularity... even on a classical music forum. One need only look to which threads have proven the most popular. But what do I know?

Click to expand...

*StlukesguildOhio thinks about as much about Britney as I do about (some) Picasso. Ha. Ha. Ha. Ha.

Cheers to civilized difference- and to 'un'-censorship.


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## StlukesguildOhio

Lisa Whelchel became a "born again Christian", married a pastor, and continues to give motivational speeches at ministries across the country...










... and she still looks pretty damn good at age 52.


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## Marschallin Blair

SimonNZ said:


> *oh, and posting the picture of a cover of a book isn't the same thing as using the actual thoughts and words from the book as a counter-argument.*


Of course it isn't.

Its for thinking people who read books and not weblogs.

Its a long, sustained, _in extenso_, and devastating argument against the waste, fraud, and abuse of taxpayer-financed education.

I wasn't going to write a disquisition on it on a Britney thread.


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## SimonNZ

I didn't think the pics needed to be edited, but suspect when the answer comes it will be something like:

"All your posts on this music thread were, as noticed by some, exclusively about the image - specifically, without fail, the scantily-clad image, and not about the music."

But I could be wrong.


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## SimonNZ

Marschallin Blair said:


> Of course it isn't.
> 
> Its for thinking people who read books and not weblogs.
> 
> Its a long, sustained, _in extenso_, and devastating argument against the waste, fraud, and abuse of taxpayer-financed education.
> 
> I wasn't going to write a disquisition on it on a Britney thread.


Yeah, but simply slapping down a cover doesn't make me say "touche", or for that matter even convince me that you've read the book. Try instead "As author X says in book Y..."

And you quoted my "duck a question" thing only to duck the questions. So here they are for a third time:



SimonNZ said:


> 1. If, seemingly, the music doesn't matter to you and its all about the image and attitude, then would you be just as taken by a successful BS impersonator?
> 
> 2. Would you like Babbit if his music were exactly the same, but he personally looked and acted in a manner more to your pleasing?


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## Balthazar

^^ Blair, if it makes you feel any better, I also had some photos deleted that I would have liked to remain. I can accept it as part of the social contract we agreed to. Like paying taxes.

But let me tell you sincerely - you don't need to rely on the crutch of glitzy photos. Your sharp wit and fighting spirit are all you need. "Analytical rigor" and all that...



Marschallin Blair said:


> Its _[sic]_ a long, sustained, _in extenso_, and devastating argument against the waste, fraud, and abuse of taxpayer-financed education.


^ At some point, I would welcome the opportunity to disabuse you of this notion, but as you rightly comment, this is not the place.


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## Marschallin Blair

SimonNZ said:


> I didn't think the pics needed to be edited, but suspect when the answer comes it will be something like:
> 
> "All your posts on this music thread were, as noticed by some, exclusively about the image - specifically, without fail, the scantily-clad image, and not about the music."
> 
> *But I could be wrong.*


Well, it wouldn't be the first time. . .

You're eliding the question though.
*
Why are sexual harassment, trolling, and personal attacks allowed to stand in defiance of the TC TOS?*

(The agit-propping from _Rules for Radicals_ won't help you on this one, Simon.)


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## Marschallin Blair

Balthazar said:


> ^^ Blair, if it makes you feel any better, I also had some photos deleted that I would have liked to remain.


_
You don't say!!!_

I actually had one lined up of James Dean homoerotically playing an oboe on the side of the bed with a scantily clad man laying beside him face down.

(You can Startpage or Google the picture.)


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## SimonNZ

Marschallin Blair said:


> *
> Why are sexual harassment, trolling, and personal attacks allowed to stand in defiance of the TC TOS?*
> 
> (The agit-propping from _Rules for Radicals_ won't help you on this one, Simon.)


I can only repeat: _Pot calling the kettle black_.

...but then maybe somehow you really don't see the "personal attack" appearance of so many of your replies...

haven't read "Rules For Radicals", sorry, so that literary allusion went over my head


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## Balthazar

^^ Blair, I am getting a strong sense that you drastically overestimate the degree to which I identify with my avatar.

Back to the OP, Babbitt's _Reflections_ for piano and synthesized tape sounds to me like a brilliant take on Bartók's Night Music, updated for the post-industrial age.


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## Marschallin Blair

*


SimonNZ said:



I can only repeat: Pot calling the kettle black.

Click to expand...

*
Really now?

Try this post on for size (which I've already mentioned but which you choose to ignore) *where a TC member tells me that his friend doesn't want to see my face, but rather wants me to get my boobs out for his friends. *Or, as he put it verbatim:
*
"He doesn't want to see your face, pet. He just wants you to get your baps oot for the lads."*

http://www.talkclassical.com/40352-milton-babbitt-vs-britney-18.html#post961731

Its straight-up sexual harassment.

- and you know it.


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## SimonNZ

Must we do this?

You're a dude. Dudes don't have baps/boobs. It was ironical. How sexually harassed are you feeling _really_?

(and whoever said it was replying, as I was when I said we needed proof in photos, to your own boasts about your amazing looks)

Fwiw...I just played the Balthazar's Babbit vid above, and your "I wanna go" one, and once again have to agree with this opinion, probably the smartest thing said on this silly thread:



Ingélou said:


> Philomel was witchy & interesting, but I wouldn't like to listen to it for longer than 10 minutes; Perfume was nondescript, but not unpleasant. *It was a choice between pickled herring and candy floss.*


Nothing wrong with candy floss, but I'm older now and my constitution cant take it any more and it makes me feel ill, so if its a choice of only those two - its pickled herring.

I will say, though, that I kinda liked the brief jokey bit at the start of that vid.


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## mmsbls

This forum is for discussions about music rather than whatever's been happening here lately. Thread closed for now.


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