# Why are bagpipes out of tune?



## Johann Sebastian Bach

My enquiry concerns the Scottish pipes.

The note which is an octave above the chanter's bottom note is flat on every instrument I've heard, leading me to the conclusion that it's done deliberately. Can anyone confirm this please?

Can anyone also confirm that other sets of pipes (Northumbrian and the various Gaelic and Celtic ones, for example) have no such pitch issues?


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## Taggart

Do you mean the high A or the high G? The bottom note on the pipes is a low G.

Basic principles - the a' phìob mhòr or Great Highland Bagpipes (GHB) is essentially a solo instrument. There is no harmony as such merely the drone note. The chanter is tuned to match the drone and because it's playing solo it can be tuned in just temperament. This means that the notes are purer against the drone. This makes most of the notes "off" according to equal temperament. The problem is compounded because the low A has become sharper - moving up to 468 or 470 (B flat). The tuning is basically a mixolydian mode.


Scale Note
Actual Note
Low G
A flat
Low A
B flat 
B
C
C
D
D
E flat
E
F
F
G
High G
Between A and A flat
High A
B Flat


As I said, the notes are all "off" because of just temperament, but the octave above the low note is definitely flat in terms of the octave.

Small pipes (any variety) are used for accompaniment so can be tuned to match ordinary instruments.


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## Johann Sebastian Bach

Thank you for your reply, which is very helpful.

However, I still don't understand why the octave above the low note isn't in tune, since 8ves *are* in tune in just temperament. The octave is the nearest thing in music to a universal constant, so I don't understand why these instruments seem to be deliberately tuned to flout this ratio.

Is it simply a matter of making them sound scary - or is it the Scots wishing to be seen to be different?


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## Taggart

Neither. It's a mixolydian mode not a normal scale so it's natural to have a flattened seventh. The advantage is that it works well with pentatonic scales. Ceol Mhor (piobaireachd) is written in one of three pentatonic scales. Each of these scales can be used to give the effect of two or more keys. intro to pipe music.


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## Guest

Johann Sebastian Bach said:


> Is it simply a matter of making them sound scary - or is it the Scots wishing to be seen to be different?


Remember the definition of a gentleman - 
Someone who can play the bagpipes; but doesn't.


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## dgee

They're difficult to make in tune as I understand it. The drones can be tuned, but the actual pipe that you finger on (it has a name - not sure tho) has limitations for it to work effectively. I understand what you mean - but it's just part of the fun, I think!


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## Taggart

The pipe you finger is called a chanter. The drones are tuned using sliders:










The low (and high) A should be tuned against the chanter. As you point out, tuning the chanter is "interesting". There are two basic methods - gaffer tape and wax:










Tape applied across the upper edge of a fingerhole to flatten pitch (left hole);
beeswax performing the same job (right hole).

That's before you discuss reeds and pressure. Remember that the Great Highland Bagpipe actually has four reeds: the chanter reed (double), two tenor drone reeds (single), and one bass drone reed (single). The reeds are enclosed in a wooden stock and played by pressing on the bag to generate air pressure.  Complex is not the word for it.

Ear defenders may be useful for accompanists:


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## Chordalrock

If I remember right, the whole point of deviating from the just intonation is to get the octaves to match. If you start the tuning of your instrument with a pure fifth, then move through the circle of fifths, the octaves will become dissonant. Sophisticated music of perfect harmony is mathematically impossible.


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## Taggart

The trouble with just intonation is summed up in wiki:



> For many instruments tuned in just intonation, one cannot change keys without retuning the instrument. For instance, if a piano is tuned in just intonation intervals and a minimum of wolf intervals for the key of G, then only one other key (typically E-flat) can have the same intervals, and many of the keys have a very dissonant and unpleasant sound. This makes modulation within a piece, or playing a repertoire of pieces in different keys, impractical to impossible.


equally, wiki notes



> most a cappella ensembles naturally tend toward just intonation because of the comfort of its stability


Because the bagpipes are essentially a solo instrument and because they use mainly pentatonic scales they can use just intonation without worrying too much about wolf tones. Equally the flat seventh arises because of the use of a modal system - in this case Mixolydian. This is basically the white notes from B to B.


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## Chordalrock

The Wiki article isn't indepth, and it's been a long while since I read a book about temperaments and tuning. I guess I wasn't thinking of just intonation, but the false idea that you could go through the circle of fifths and end up with a C in the higher octave that is in tune with the C in the lower octave.

And don't "a cappella" choral groups attempt to sing pure intervals because they don't have to stick to any particular "tuning" the way keyboard instruments do? I thought maybe that was called just intonation. They would be able to sing pure intervals in any key, but once they got back to the original key it'd have a slightly different pitch or something.


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## Bagpiper of renown ian

This should put to rest this subject. The note to which you are referring, the "high -A" on the chanter, on, specifically, the Great Highland Bagpipe, is intentially tuned "out of tune" to make it more noticeably audible against the drones. Due to the conacle shape of the chanter, as opposed to cylindrical shapes of other types of pipes, notes higher up the scale are considerably more faint/quiet than notes towards the bottom. Hence why our lowest playable note, what we call "low-G", is the loudest note etc.. usw...

That being said, convention over the years has led to most pipers (who can actually play well, most likely starting from an early age) tuning their chanters as such, so that the "high-A" sounds just a wee bit flatter against the drones to give it more presence due to its relative quietness. What is gained from doing this, the pros, outweighs, in my opinion, the cons, if any, that may arise. 

Now if you're talking about a recording taken any time before the late late late 70's, then the issue was one of the instrument being played in the old school tradition of having sharper D's, flatter F#'s and high As, as well as sharper high G's. Don't ask me why this prevailed back then. Players just seemed to be more out of tune back then. Or maybe poorer pipers couldnt afford a tuner, or their tuning setup may have just sounded like their dear sweet old mother's singing from whom the most traditional musicians would have learned their first tunes. 

But I digress...

There you have it


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## Merl

I've always said they're out of tune so thank you Bagpiper of Renown Ian for confirming this. They remain the worst thing about living in Scotland. I hate the sound of them (but as an Englishman wasn't that the point)? Lol


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## mbhaub

You may not like them, but what a tourist draw! Not to mention some of the superb distilleries. (I'm partial to Sheep Dip blended whisky myself.)

I've always wanted to hear something like this:


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