# Is classical music dying slowly because other genra is the youth scorning the genra?



## deprofundis (Apr 25, 2014)

*Ok how do i started this subject, that is hard to swallow...
I seen classical losing poppularity over the decaded, i blame several factors.
*
Our parents were more mainstream and if you live in sutch a family, chance are , your father or mother love classical , but only barroque teutonic giants and some romantic composer they heard on the radio.

The youth of today is not awared of classical and symphonical music, beside :the 3 BBB, Mozart , Haydn,Vivaldi,Ravel, debussy, prokofief, rachmaninov, Wagner, stravinsky, Holst, Satie you get the picture notorieous classical everyone know unless you live on the moon for decaded, and think classical genra is limited to fews composer everyone like, the most poppular the better, the rest they dont even know exist.

They listen to there classical in there hip-hop sample over a guy talking not even singing and says wow this song is great they dont give any credit to classical composer even worst, they think it's the rapper or hip-hop artist music creation, this sickens me to the core.

Than hip-hop and rap youth are not the sole to blame look metal kid, they hear symphonic metal it's great but dont investigated classical symphonic stuff, because it's music for pop's and mom's ...oh man oh man oh man...

Than there are youth into medieval stuff, like neo classical and dark wave, nothing wrong in this , but what if i tell these darn kid listen , there are classical music of medieval origin true and genuine better than you Dead can Dance(not a bad band but overated) look at capella del minister albums some are true genuine medieval far better than there neo medieval music.

If people only knew classical, not just a couple of germans, russian, french per se, classical would be hudge, do classical music teachers teach this to kid nowaday , answer is nope.

I feel like someone , somewhere ,in music industry ,man behind the scene , decided what hip what not and they dont want classical to be big in poppularity it's not people that scorned classical it's those darn trend setter hipsters, who decide what people should listen to what marginal, what is classical all about , what is to be respected & admired, not peoples, there misinformed not knowledge enought on classical they think it's fews composer that it's narrow while classical is endless , the spectrum of music is hudge mutch more than others sub genra.

Who is responsible for downfall of classical music poppularity who want it dead and why?

Look i hope this post not offensive in anyway, i tried to be decent , there lots of angst & anger i feel about this.

Classical my favorite music and some capitalist music industry want it dead... it dosen't sell enought , perhaps because ,radio dosen't help playing the darn same thing over and over and people are misinformed on the wide world of classical from gregorian to nowaday modernist, there so mutch to listen.

Yet classical is mock in show like The simpsons, Martin Prince like classical music he a nerd and a sissy character,thus said an outcast a reject a loser , thus said thus meaning not cool, the school teacher of Lisa Simpson try to learn to there students classical , but Lisa simpson scorn classical and is all about saxophone.Insignifiant detail like this make classical non cool to youth and it's dying.


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## haydnguy (Oct 13, 2008)

There is hope on the horizon. (See link below)

When I first started listening to classical music the record companies were re-releasing albums from the past. For the long time classical music listener this was not very interesting. For a newcomer like me it was a boon.

This is my humble opinion. When I first started listening I noticed that in classical recordings the composer, conductor, and performer (orchestra or smaller) were mostly the first criteria when choosing an album. The non-classical music listener starts with the performer. So if Britney Spears puts out an album they don't care who wrote it. I believe that the younger people will identify initially by performers who are more their age (like Trifonov). If these performers play both the canon and modern pieces they will be exposed to both types. Hilary Hahn has done this on many of her albums. (Not the latest Bach album she recently put out). I just saw that Hahn released a new CD today called Retrospective(Jan. 19, 2019).

This will get them exposed to classical music and once they are exposed to it many will like it.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/01/12/classical-musical-now-top-pops-latest-sales-figures-show/


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

haydnguy said:


> ...The non-classical music listener starts with the performer. So if Britney Spears puts out an album they don't care who wrote it.


I think that the listener here may recognize this as a product labeled "Britney Spears" but it's actually the work of Scandinavian songsmiths and a large crew of arrangers, sound technicians, and so forth. It's kind of like buying a car based on its brand name. Any comparisons to the usual "classical music" model are specious.

https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2015/10/hit-charade/403192/


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## Larkenfield (Jun 5, 2017)

I believe the death of CM to the young has been greatly exaggerated:






However, some consider the concert venues boring and the ticket prices exorbitant. There are a number of CM videos on YT with millions of listeners and the music has often been used for study and enjoyment (especially Mozart), and highly regarded, because they say so.

There's also a flood of new talent being born every day, especially when it comes to incredible pianists and violinists, too numerous at the moment to mention, and yet music at the level of elementary education continues to be pitifully poor when compared to the past and the gazillions spent on the military. Some mostly non-youth still complain about public funds going to PBS, which has offered tremendous exposure to the arts to the young, especially in the more rural areas of the US.

The problem is that the young may be less willing to pay for it and it's harder to make a living as a musician than before. The music seems less valued economically because the public now often demands it for free, and royalties from streaming mostly go to the CEOs than the artists themselves being paid a penny on the dollar and trying to put food on the table. The economic part of it is often shameful but I feel that will eventually be sorted out.

This Mozart upload has over 164 million views in five years despite its competition from other genres. I would say that's a respectable showing and more indicative of life than death. Mozart would probably have to live 20 lifetimes in order to be heard by that many people ... and the 1000 year history of the music appears stronger than dirt, starting with Hildegard of Bingen.


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## Jacck (Dec 24, 2017)

put classical music into video game soundtracks and the young will discover it. I read recently a comment on youtube under a Dvořák symphony, that a part of his symphony appeared in some video game and the kid was so mesmerized with the music that he had to look it up and then wrote that the Dvořák symphony was the best music he ever heard. It is a matter of exposing the young to the music in an appropriate manner. Obviously, they will not put on suites and go to a classical concert


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## Dimace (Oct 19, 2018)

Classical music has its ups and downs, but it never dies. Period.


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## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

Despite some hopeful signs, I am quite pessimistic about the decline of interest in classical music. Pop culture has won. But we're not alone:
1. Newpapers and magazines are dying.
2. Movies have by and large given way to loud, vulgar productions. Very few intelligent movies anymore - mostly super hero crap.
3. TV networks in the US mostly have poorly written, repetitive, unoriginal, dull shows. Long gone are the Paddy Chayevskys and Rod Serlings.
4. Church attendance is declining rapidly. The weak attempts to make it relevant by using rock music has backfired.
5. Once strong social institutions like Elks, Moose, Rotary, Lions are vanishing. Read Bowling Alone if you doubt it.
6. Schools have by and large watered down courses. Universities have succumbed to making money and graduate students who know nothing about history, culture, and other things a college student should be literate about. Read The Closing of the American Mind.
7. The media, when they report anything at all about music, will spend a lot of time on some teen pop singer, or some rock guitar prodigy. When it comes to kids who excel on violin or piano or even composing - not a word.
8. Too many people in the classical music biz have highly overestimated their worth to society. They have made salary demands that are outrageous, and often get it, raising ticket prices so high that the average guy can't afford it too often. Check out prices for the Met or LA Philharmonic. Conductors getting $100,000 for one concert? Give me a break.
9. Too many people who consider themselves classical musicians are themselves illiterate with the literature. They know nothing about the composer and their music, have little if any understanding of the traditions and styles. Young players today are the worst. They listen to hip hop and other garbage all day, rarely listen to anything classical, yet want to play in an orchestra.
10. There's been a general assault on western civ and it's incredible artistic heritage for at least a generation. Thanks, liberals.


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## science (Oct 14, 2010)

I think we've got to get used to the idea that a majority of our fellow classical fans aren't going to be teenagers. Some are - the lucky few - but most of us have to come to it later in life. 

We're not alone; the same is true for blues, jazz, fine cuisine, meditation, and anything historic--almost anything that rewards careful attention to detail and a broad range of experience for comparison. Youth is generally for cheap thrills, for forming reassuring coalitions of peers, for figuring out what kind of person you are. And that's probably ok. Very few of us will really appreciate aesthetic quality until later in life, and even then it'll probably be a minority who've had the fortune to have enough leisure time to cultivate the necessary habits and acquire the necessary breadth of experience.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

mbhaub said:


> Despite some hopeful signs, I am quite pessimistic about the decline of interest in classical music. Pop culture has won. But we're not alone:
> 1. Newpapers and magazines are dying.
> 2. Movies have by and large given way to loud, vulgar productions. Very few intelligent movies anymore - mostly super hero crap.
> 3. TV networks in the US mostly have poorly written, repetitive, unoriginal, dull shows. Long gone are the Paddy Chayevskys and Rod Serlings.
> ...


I was somewhat sympathetic with this up to your last sentence. Not to get political here, but the most culturally benighted people in this culturally benighted culture cannot rationally be described as "liberals," or else words have lost all meaning. But then that loss of meaning - and your easy resort to such buzzwords - is part of the very cultural corruption you deplore.

If you want to blame some group of people for the state of the world, you'll need at least to be more precise as to whom you're blaming and why. Maybe - no, not maybe, but certainly - the reasons for cultural change are more complex than you think.


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## science (Oct 14, 2010)

mbhaub said:


> Despite some hopeful signs, I am quite pessimistic about the decline of interest in classical music. Pop culture has won. But we're not alone:
> 1. Newpapers and magazines are dying.
> 2. Movies have by and large given way to loud, vulgar productions. Very few intelligent movies anymore - mostly super hero crap.
> 3. TV networks in the US mostly have poorly written, repetitive, unoriginal, dull shows. Long gone are the Paddy Chayevskys and Rod Serlings.
> ...


You're welcome!

But seriously, old man, relax. Western civilization is doing just fine. More Asian people, even in relative terms, are reading the Gospels than westerners are reading Confucius. More Asian people, even in relative terms, are seriously studying Beethoven than westerners have ever even tried to listen to Chinese classical music. More Asian people, even in relative terms, are studying the art of the Italian Renaissance than westerners who know the title of a single work of East Asian painting.

And so on.

I now work in admissions counseling, helping high school students, mostly East Asian, apply for college. The competition is astounding because there are so many amazing kids these days. I hope we older people haven't ruined the human world beyond repair, and I hope I get to live several more decades, because I want to see what these young people can achieve.


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## deprofundis (Apr 25, 2014)

Dimace said:


> Classical music has its ups and downs, but it never dies. Period.


 i hope so my friend


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

Classical music seems to be in it's death throes. Here is evidence:

Detroit Symphony Orchestra presents The Music of David Bowie.

So is this is the only way they can keep their books in the black? Do David Bowie fans really care for this treatment? I think the season ticket holders are the main suckers for this stuff.


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## science (Oct 14, 2010)

Fritz Kobus said:


> Classical music seems to be in it's death throes. Here is evidence:
> 
> Detroit Symphony Orchestra presents The Music of David Bowie.
> 
> So is this is the only way they can keep their books in the black? Do David Bowie fans really care for this treatment? I think the season ticket holders are the main suckers for this stuff.


What do you think will last longer? The Detroit Symphony Orchestra, or classical music?


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## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

All I know is, at my local used CD store, they used to have a 20-foot wall lined with six shelves filled with classical CDs, everything from Gregorian chant to current composers. I was able to try out composers/recordings I wouldn't have experienced otherwise. But last month they started selling their inventory of classical CDs at fire-sale prices and have reduced the classical space to 7 feet. When I asked, they stated low demand. Meanwhile, the Easy Listening section is as big as it ever was. In fact, every other section is as big as it ever was. I'm trying to be sanguine, but doggone.


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## deprofundis (Apr 25, 2014)

Manxfeeder said:


> All I know is, at my local used CD store, they used to have a 30-foot wall lined with six shelves filled with classical CDs, everything from Gregorian chant to current composers. I was able to try out composers/recordings I wouldn't have experienced otherwise. But last month they started selling their inventory of classical CDs at fire-sale prices and have reduced the classical space to twelve feet. When I asked, they stated low demand. Meanwhile, the Easy Listening section is as big as it ever was. In fact, every other section is as big as it ever was. I'm trying to be sanguine, but doggone.


This is happening in my city too, i feel your pain


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## AeolianStrains (Apr 4, 2018)

Fritz Kobus said:


> Classical music seems to be in it's death throes. Here is evidence:
> 
> Detroit Symphony Orchestra presents The Music of David Bowie.
> 
> So is this is the only way they can keep their books in the black? Do David Bowie fans really care for this treatment? I think the season ticket holders are the main suckers for this stuff.


How many Bohemian, Hungarian, Turkish, and Romanian dances and folk songs were borrowed and dressed up by Classical composers? Mozart, Brahms, Liszt, etc. all did this. What's so different about doing the same with David Bowie's works?


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## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

Woodduck said:


> I was somewhat sympathetic with this up to your last sentence. Not to get political here, but the most culturally benighted people in this culturally benighted culture cannot rationally be described as "liberals," or else words have lost all meaning. But then that loss of meaning - and your easy resort to such buzzwords - is part of the very cultural corruption you deplore.
> 
> If you want to blame some group of people for the state of the world, you'll need at least to be more precise as to whom you're blaming and why. Maybe - no, not maybe, but certainly - the reasons for cultural change are more complex than you think.


Re that last sentence: I was horrified when the manta "Hey Hey Ho Ho, Western Civ has got to go" came out. These are not my words:

The title of this week's column was a student protest chant started by *Jesse Jackson* at Stanford University in the 80's. The idea was to throw out the university's required courses on Western Culture because they were filled with "*European and Western male bias*" and replace them with courses that teach non-Western cultures and "works by women, minorities, and persons of color." Jackson was successful - *today almost all colleges and universities stress A.C.B.W. (Any Culture But Western)* courses and ignore the classic teachings of Western civilization's "white men." Looking back now, over two decades later, we can see the results of Jackson's efforts. How do you like it? 
Anti-Western civilization is what's cool. Third world is wonderful, Western civ is bad. "Multicultural" is all inclusive, right? Wrong. Anything called "multicultural" never includes the American culture. Colleges and universities have been teaching anti-Western dogma for years; popular music has been rapping that tune for a couple of decades; media like the press and TV and movies push it, and you even see it in the edgy names of big chain retail stores.

I have to believe that the worship of the third world and the under cultures is due because people, especially people under the age of 35 or 40, have been taught that white Europeans were the bad guys that kept the "people of color" down. . . .

So farewell to Plato, Galileo and Isaac Newton. Goodbye to St. Paul, Gutenberg, Columbus, da Vinci and Michelangelo. So long St. Augustine, Homer, Voltaire, Francis Bacon, *Beethoven and Johann Bach*. See ya, Einstein, Pasteur, Shakespeare and Oliver Cromwell. Adieu to George Washington, Ben Franklin, and Thomas Jefferson. Ta,ta Wright brothers, Thomas Edison and Alexander Graham Bell. And rest in peace Judeo-Christian worldview.


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## Red Terror (Dec 10, 2018)

mbhaub said:


> Re that last sentence: I was horrified when the manta "Hey Hey Ho Ho, Western Civ has got to go" came out. These are not my words:
> 
> The title of this week's column was a student protest chant started by *Jesse Jackson* at Stanford University in the 80's. The idea was to throw out the university's required courses on Western Culture because they were filled with "*European and Western male bias*" and replace them with courses that teach non-Western cultures and "works by women, minorities, and persons of color." Jackson was successful - *today almost all colleges and universities stress A.C.B.W. (Any Culture But Western)* courses and ignore the classic teachings of Western civilization's "white men." Looking back now, over two decades later, we can see the results of Jackson's efforts. How do you like it?
> Anti-Western civilization is what's cool. Third world is wonderful, Western civ is bad. "Multicultural" is all inclusive, right? Wrong. Anything called "multicultural" never includes the American culture. Colleges and universities have been teaching anti-Western dogma for years; popular music has been rapping that tune for a couple of decades; media like the press and TV and movies push it, and you even see it in the edgy names of big chain retail stores.
> ...


Relax, the white man is still pulling the strings. Dance puppets, dance!

FYI: Christ was a Jew-not "white" in the slightest.

:tiphat:


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## science (Oct 14, 2010)

mbhaub said:


> Re that last sentence: I was horrified when the manta "Hey Hey Ho Ho, Western Civ has got to go" came out. These are not my words:
> 
> The title of this week's column was a student protest chant started by *Jesse Jackson* at Stanford University in the 80's. The idea was to throw out the university's required courses on Western Culture because they were filled with "*European and Western male bias*" and replace them with courses that teach non-Western cultures and "works by women, minorities, and persons of color." Jackson was successful - *today almost all colleges and universities stress A.C.B.W. (Any Culture But Western)* courses and ignore the classic teachings of Western civilization's "white men." Looking back now, over two decades later, we can see the results of Jackson's efforts. How do you like it?
> Anti-Western civilization is what's cool. Third world is wonderful, Western civ is bad. "Multicultural" is all inclusive, right? Wrong. Anything called "multicultural" never includes the American culture. Colleges and universities have been teaching anti-Western dogma for years; popular music has been rapping that tune for a couple of decades; media like the press and TV and movies push it, and you even see it in the edgy names of big chain retail stores.
> ...


"The under cultures?"


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## Jacck (Dec 24, 2017)

mbhaub said:


> The idea was to throw out the university's required courses on Western Culture because they were filled with "*European and Western male bias*" and replace them with courses that teach non-Western cultures and "works by women, minorities, and persons of color." Jackson was successful - *today almost all colleges and universities stress A.C.B.W. (Any Culture But Western)* courses and ignore the classic teachings of Western civilization's "white men." Looking back now, over two decades later, we can see the results of Jackson's efforts. How do you like it?
> Anti-Western civilization is what's cool. Third world is wonderful, Western civ is bad. "Multicultural" is all inclusive, right? Wrong. Anything called "multicultural" never includes the American culture. Colleges and universities have been teaching anti-Western dogma for years;


this is an American thing, you do not see this in Czech Republic. I do not know what produced this silly attitude towards the minorities, if it was some historical guilt complex against the blacks (slavery etc). We never colonized or conqured anyone and have no historical feelings of guilt towards any minorities. The mainstream attitude is that if immigrants from other cultures do not want to addapt to the Czech culture, they can stay where they are. We do not need any "cultural diversity" here.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

Fritz Kobus said:


> Classical music seems to be in it's death throes. Here is evidence:
> 
> Detroit Symphony Orchestra presents The Music of David Bowie.
> 
> So is this is the only way they can keep their books in the black? Do David Bowie fans really care for this treatment? I think the season ticket holders are the main suckers for this stuff.


Maybe they could hire an Asian star soloist to do China Girl? It'll be a smash!


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

mbhaub said:


> Re that last sentence: I was horrified when the manta "Hey Hey Ho Ho, Western Civ has got to go" came out. These are not my words:
> 
> The title of this week's column was a student protest chant started by *Jesse Jackson* at Stanford University in the 80's. The idea was to throw out the university's required courses on Western Culture because they were filled with "*European and Western male bias*" and replace them with courses that teach non-Western cultures and "works by women, minorities, and persons of color." Jackson was successful - *today almost all colleges and universities stress A.C.B.W. (Any Culture But Western)* courses and ignore the classic teachings of Western civilization's "white men." Looking back now, over two decades later, we can see the results of Jackson's efforts. How do you like it?
> Anti-Western civilization is what's cool. Third world is wonderful, Western civ is bad. "Multicultural" is all inclusive, right? Wrong. Anything called "multicultural" never includes the American culture. Colleges and universities have been teaching anti-Western dogma for years; popular music has been rapping that tune for a couple of decades; media like the press and TV and movies push it, and you even see it in the edgy names of big chain retail stores.
> ...


Our final sentences or paragraphs can have the wonderful function of clarifying what we're really saying. The philosophers, scientists, explorers and artists you're bidding farewell do not represent a single "worldview," and neither can any person aspiring to a consciousness of the full scope of humanity in 2019. If the "Judeo-Christian worldview" (whatever that entails) is what you want to preserve intact, your cause is lost - and thank God for that (so to speak). Trumpkins may want a physical wall, and you may want an intellectual and spiritual one, but it's too late for either.

I don't see Western culture disappearing. In fact I see it all around me. The aspects of it that I love most may be hard to see day to day; the noisy, frivolous, hedonistic, rapacious, destructive aspects of our civilization often seem to have the upper hand. But it wasn't your dreaded "liberals" or "multiculturalism" that created them; the crisis had begun long before that. Consider the possibilty that Western culture, limited like any other "world view," contained the seeds of its own decline, and that the interest in learning from world cultures you deplore is less a cause of the decline than a response to it.


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## Xisten267 (Sep 2, 2018)

science said:


> You're welcome!
> 
> But seriously, old man, relax. Western civilization is doing just fine. *More Asian people, even in relative terms, are reading the Gospels than westerners are reading Confucius. More Asian people, even in relative terms, are seriously studying Beethoven than westerners have ever even tried to listen to Chinese classical music. More Asian people, even in relative terms, are studying the art of the Italian Renaissance than westerners who know the title of a single work of East Asian painting.*
> 
> ...


Doesn't it actually show how well is Eastern civilization nowadays, instead of Western? If the Asians are so interested in culture, and are achieving so much, isn't this a signal that they are doing well, instead of westerns?


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## Dimace (Oct 19, 2018)

Music is an universal phenomenon and exist from the dawn of the humanity. Every people and every culture has music. Logically, the Western Civilization has also. Our music is not better or worse than the music of Africa. Is simply an other kind of music. The music we love, listen and support. But the Africans do the same with their music. 


So, we have a cultural diversity, but we are all the same on the vast seas of music. I like a lot the Arabic music, for example. All these praises which coming from the mosques every morning have one very peculiar magic. Some times I'm inspired from this music. The same with South America music. Some melodies are so magic. This Latin rhythms, the tango, etc. It is blessing to have this music together with our music. Is one Vals better than one Tango? I don't think so. Both are great IF are nicely composed. 

Here in Berlin, in our conservatories, the recent years, we have also some students from Africa or from Arabia. It is a nice mix. They have another approach to our music. But some of them are very good. Very unfortunately for us (the white people) we are not better than the black, yellow, rot etc. guys... Actually, I don't know ONE single pianist in Germany is good enough to kiss Oscar Peterson's feet. If Art Tatum had played classical piano, Rubinstein should be good only to carry his books. (his words) Imagine the Duke in classical music? He has EVERY FFFFFFFF pianist of today in his pocket. Fats Waller eats the today stars for breakfast. I can write till tomorrow here... (All these guys are Black Americans. Roots from Africa! YES!!!)


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## science (Oct 14, 2010)

Allerius said:


> Doesn't it actually show how well is Eastern civilization nowadays, instead of Western? If the Asians are so interested in culture, and are achieving so much, isn't this a signal that they are doing well, instead of westerns?


The point is, classical European thought and culture is not being forgotten.


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## Jacck (Dec 24, 2017)

I have no problem with cultural diversity where it concerns food/clothing/art/some forms of religions/cultural habbits.
I have a problem with cultures such as islam, which is a primitive medieval religion suppressing the rights of women/homosexuals/non-muslims. This is INCOMPATIBLE with the Western culture. I have a problem with the regimes in Russian and China which are authoritarian and totalitarian. Basically any culture that does not accept the western value of universal human rights, is incompatible with the western culture. The problem with the identity politics in the US is that is gives preferential treatment under the law to some minorities and so creates unequality under the law, which is again incompatible with universal human rights.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

The best thing they did was give us Takemitsu. But the Asian world doesn't produce too many single minded icons like him.


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## Jacck (Dec 24, 2017)

science said:


> The point is, classical European thought and culture is not being forgotten.


and you think this is not a problem?
https://www.city-journal.org/html/how-identity-politics-harming-sciences-15826.html
from a meritocracy and scientific excellence to a politically driven multicultural mediocricity? Now the educational standards in physics and maths (the basis of all science) are lowered so that the fields can become "culturally diverse". This is like shooting yourself in the foot.


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## larold (Jul 20, 2017)

The "death" of classical music, its causes, reasons and personalities responsible, has been discussed to death for about the past 25 years since the book "Who Killed Classical Music" (https://www.amazon.com/Who-Killed-C...l+music&qid=1547923459&s=Books&sr=1-1-catcorr) came out in 1997.

I started listening to and collecting classical recordings about 1970 during the Beethoven Bicentennial. DG produced recordings of everything Ludwig van composed that year. There were record stores everywhere, experts in those stores to help you select recordings, lots of books on classical music in bookstores, public radio was thriving in USA (I had access to 4 public radio stations using a rudimentary antenna), public radio stations routinely ran concerts from big name orchestras, there were concerts everywhere, and classical music was thriving.

Shostakovich was alive and not yet a cult figure. The Georg Solti-Chicago Symphony Orchestra explosion was just starting and both Karajan and Bernstein were alive and leading the field in Europe and USA. Leopold Stokowski, George Szell, Eugene Ormandy, Karl Bohm and countless other big name conductors were alive and leading orchestras. I could buy new recordings for $2 or $3 and used LPs for $1 or less.

When I compare classical music in USA today to that environment, it's clear it is far less than what it was. It's not dead but orchestras like Philadelphia, Detroit and Minneapolis have either gone bankrupt or lost whole seasons to work stoppages, public radio is far diminished from what it was, most private CM radio stations in smaller markets have gone out of business or changed format, and the whole of recordings has changed in revolutionary ways. Buying something today is completely up to the individual buyer; there is little or no reliable help. Younger listeners stream music or listen to YouTube.

The art of record (or CD or download) collecting is probably dead or dying, there are far fewer magazines and other media covering the industry than there once was, and Europe, where government funding traditionally supported orchestras, has also seen downsizing. As I understand it classical music is very strong in Asia where there are still lots of record stores full of buyers.

There is, of course, the Internet which makes just about anything ever produced available in one way or another. There are also a lot of Internet sites (like this one) where a person can acquire some expertise about classical music. But it's a lot more work and a lot more hazardous than when we used to go to record stores and talk with clerks that knew a lot about recordings and music and could direct you to something you might like.

I have guessed some reasons why there has been a decline. For one, I think a lot of artists that would prior to 1950 have gone into classical music probably went into other art forms, namely film. Since the advent of rock and roll in the 1950s that art form has dominated youth culture -- and youth culture has become something it never was previously. Today popular music is marketed to young people in ways it never was prior to 1950.

There has also been a decline in the creative nature of classical music since World War II. Dmitri Shostakovich, who died 1975,. was the last big name composer that wrote a broad array of masterpieces in multiple formats like other great composers including Beethoven and Brahms. Most composers at work today, and those that have risen to fame since 1975, haven't written as much music of quality in as many areas -- opera, song, chamber music, symphonies, concertos, solo instrumental, etc. Since Shostakovich's death Benjamin Britten (died 1976) was the only figure in classical music that was close to him in terms of output and quality.

This isn't to say there haven't been composers since then that wrote masterpieces and it isn't to say there hasn't been great music written. But there has been no composer since those two died of their stature, masters that wrote in many areas whose new compositions routinely created buzz around the world and created new fans for the industry. I think if someone came along and continued the tradition it may reinvigorate classical music but it hasn't happened. Whether it will or not is to be seen. For me, this is the biggest change in classical music since I became connected to it.


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## Xisten267 (Sep 2, 2018)

science said:


> The point is, classical European thought and culture is not being forgotten.


My point is that perhaps in America and Europe it really is, despite the fact that perhaps in other places of the world it is not.

According to this CNN article below, despite it's optimistic conclusion, classical music institutions are having a bad time:

'Classical' music is dying...and that's the best thing for classical music


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

AeolianStrains said:


> How many Bohemian, Hungarian, Turkish, and Romanian dances and folk songs were borrowed and dressed up by Classical composers? Mozart, Brahms, Liszt, etc. all did this. What's so different about doing the same with David Bowie's works?


Did they include a full rock band, what ever that means in the context of the DSO:

"Join conductor Brent Havens and a Full Rock Band on a symphonic musical odyssey."


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## science (Oct 14, 2010)

Jacck said:


> and you think this is not a problem?
> https://www.city-journal.org/html/how-identity-politics-harming-sciences-15826.html
> from a meritocracy and scientific excellence to a politically driven multicultural mediocricity? Now the educational standards in physics and maths (the basis of all science) are lowered so that the fields can become "culturally diverse". This is like shooting yourself in the foot.


The standards in sciences and math are not falling, and including more of the world in them is only raising the standards even higher.



Allerius said:


> My point is that perhaps in America and Europe it really is, despite the fact that perhaps in other places of the world it is not.


I'll start worrying when I'm not getting paid to teach kids to read Shakespeare.


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## Johnnie Burgess (Aug 30, 2015)

Manxfeeder said:


> All I know is, at my local used CD store, they used to have a 20-foot wall lined with six shelves filled with classical CDs, everything from Gregorian chant to current composers. I was able to try out composers/recordings I wouldn't have experienced otherwise. But last month they started selling their inventory of classical CDs at fire-sale prices and have reduced the classical space to 7 feet. When I asked, they stated low demand. Meanwhile, the Easy Listening section is as big as it ever was. In fact, every other section is as big as it ever was. I'm trying to be sanguine, but doggone.


Be thankful you have a local cd store where I live the only place with cds is walmart.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Jacck said:


> I have no problem with cultural diversity where it concerns food/clothing/art/some forms of religions/cultural habbits.
> I have a problem with cultures such as islam, which is a primitive medieval religion suppressing the rights of women/homosexuals/non-muslims. This is INCOMPATIBLE with the Western culture. I have a problem with the regimes in Russian and China which are authoritarian and totalitarian. Basically any culture that does not accept the western value of universal human rights, is incompatible with the western culture. The problem with the identity politics in the US is that is gives preferential treatment under the law to some minorities and so creates unequality under the law, which is again incompatible with universal human rights.


When has there ever been "equality under the law"?

"Western culture" has embraced contradictory ideas, including very different conceptions of "human rights," all on its own. In this sense, it has been incompatible with itself, with no need for a "clash of civilizations." The Inquisition, the Crusades, and the Holocaust were products of Western civilization, human rights be damned.

I observe that the people most desperate to protect what they call Western civilization from the Persian (or Mexican, or Jewish, or gay, or whatever) hordes have no concept of "universal human rights," or overtly reject such a concept, for the simple reason that their parochial faction of Western civilization has no interest in or understanding of a humanity beyond the narrow conceptions fostered by their own political and religious traditions. Those who complain about "identity politics" are the most entrenched practitioners of it: "our" identity (right) versus everyone else's (wrong).

I would suggest that those concerned about universal human rights not worry about the so-called "preferential treatment" of minorities _under_ the law, but instead direct their attention to those in a position to _create_ the laws which guarantee the perpetuation of their own privileges, power, and arrogance.

Now howzabout all you strident xenophobes taking your political axes over to groups and grinding them there?


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## Xisten267 (Sep 2, 2018)

I would like to add to this discussion by providing the link below, from Google Trends, that shows the number of searches of the topic "classical music" at google in all the world since 2004 until today. The graphic shows a decline in interest for the topic over the years:

https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?cat=3&date=all&q=/m/0ggq0m


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

Jacck said:


> put classical music into video game soundtracks and the young will discover it. I read recently a comment on youtube under a Dvořák symphony, that a part of his symphony appeared in some video game and the kid was so mesmerized with the music that he had to look it up and then wrote that the Dvořák symphony was the best music he ever heard. It is a matter of exposing the young to the music in an appropriate manner. Obviously, they will not put on suites and go to a classical concert


My daughter hated CM until her video game introduced her to a few pieces. Now she is exploring quite widely within Romantic and Modern orchestral and chamber music.


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## Dimace (Oct 19, 2018)

Enthusiast said:


> My daughter hated CM until her video game introduced her to a few pieces. Now she is exploring quite widely within* Romantic *and Modern orchestral and chamber music.


Tell her, please, to remain to the Romantic music! LOL! LOL! (This way, when she comes here with us, she will support my old fashion ideas making me happy! Working for the future is this. German programming! LOL!!)


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## Jacck (Dec 24, 2017)

Woodduck said:


> When has there ever been "equality under the law"?
> 
> "Western culture" has embraced contradictory ideas, including very different conceptions of "human rights," all on its own. In this sense, it has been incompatible with itself, with no need for a "clash of civilizations." The Inquisition, the Crusades, and the Holocaust were products of Western civilization, human rights be damned.
> 
> ...


the modern western civilization began to be born at the time of the French Revolution. And it has cost us an enormous bloodshed, all the bloody revolutions to overthrow the absolutist monarchies, and finally achieve equality under the law for all citizens. The religious wars have been bloody. To separate the state from the church has been bloody. The poisons of nationalism and imperialism culminating in the world wars have been bloody. Nazism, communism have been bloody. Islam is several centuries behind. There was no separation of state from the church in most of those countries. There are still bloody religious wars (shiite vs sunni). But you are right. This is not the place to discuss what constitutes Western civilization and if it is or is not threatened. And you are not right about me, I am no xenophobe and no conservative. I am a liberal at heart. And I am against all forms of antiliberalism, islam being one of those forms
What I, however, perceive is that the West is losing faith in its own future and in its own principles and is starting to decline. Whether the decline of classical music is part of the general decline or not I do not know.


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## science (Oct 14, 2010)

Allerius said:


> I would like to add to this discussion by providing the link below, from Google Trends, that shows the number of searches of the topic "classical music" at google in all the world since 2004 until today. The graphic shows a decline in interest for the topic over the years:
> 
> https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?cat=3&date=all&q=/m/0ggq0m


I hope this is at least in part because the Mozart effect has been debunked!


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## Quacker (Dec 9, 2017)

I absolutely agree that liberals with their love/obsession of identity politics certainly deserve a huge chunk of the blame, but so do those who prioritize $$$ above all else. It's a rather nasty combo that has caused good portions of the world to go right into the sewer.


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## Dimace (Oct 19, 2018)

Jacck said:


> I have no problem with cultural diversity where it concerns food/clothing/art/some forms of religions/cultural habbits.
> I have a problem with cultures such as islam, which is a primitive medieval religion suppressing the rights of women/homosexuals/non-muslims. This is INCOMPATIBLE with the Western culture. I have a problem with the regimes in Russian and China which are authoritarian and totalitarian. Basically any culture that does not accept the western value of universal human rights, is incompatible with the western culture. The problem with the identity politics in the US is that is gives preferential treatment under the law to some minorities and so creates unequality under the law, which is again incompatible with universal human rights.


To tell you the truth, my dear friend and neighbor, I don't believe to bad religions. I believe to bad or very bad men. In Czech Republic you don't have fugitives or illegal emigrants. It is your government decision and I respect it. Here in Germany we have many. What I can tell you is that, you believe it or not, the women LIKE to be suppressed! Why here in Germany are dressed the same way as in their countries? They can throw away all these black vales, they can show us their faces, their bodies, they can feel free. But they don't do it. What are they afraid of? It is nothing to be afraid! I can tell you MANY stories with women (from Arabia) they ferociously resisted to abandon their country habits. (integration we are calling this...) Cheers to very beautiful Czech Republic with the amazing Prague and the more amazing women!


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## regenmusic (Oct 23, 2014)

It's very interesting how there was no "brainy" establishment in the music industry, nor in publishing who covered these people nor on television, that seemed to in any way filter out what was and is being presented to the public as choice in music. Rap and similar artists who seem to have softcore porn acts on stage is basically is what I'm talking about. The TV and music industry really do promote rap, not all of which might be bad, but much of it is. You can see it on the YouTube hits. I am not saying this to be derogatory, but think there is a third world appeal of this music, as these views must be coming from outside the USA and Europe. They are watching what is popular in the USA already. If these view of 100 million or more are to be taken seriously, then I think perhaps the books might be cooked for one reason or another.. That's one conspiracy that I think might be plausible. 

So, there isn't anyone with power in the music industry to promote the kind of progressive music we had before. Even techno/EDM is so relentlessly beat based that I think older generations cannot listen to it.


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

Jacck said:


> I have no problem with cultural diversity where it concerns food/clothing/art/some forms of religions/cultural habbits.
> I have a problem with cultures such as islam, which is a primitive medieval religion suppressing the rights of women/homosexuals/non-muslims. This is INCOMPATIBLE with the Western culture. I have a problem with the regimes in Russian and China which are authoritarian and totalitarian. Basically any culture that does not accept the western value of universal human rights, is incompatible with the western culture. The problem with the identity politics in the US is that is gives preferential treatment under the law to some minorities and so creates unequality under the law, which is again incompatible with universal human rights.


Actually, Islam is a religion rather than a culture and like most major religions has a wide variety of variants, schools and so on. I think you are probably reacting to a version of Islam that is very restricting and dogmatic. It has been spread around the world via funding for mosques by Saudi donors. It is nasty, I think, (and in the same way that Christian fundamentalist groups are nasty) but don't make the mistake of calling it Islam. Also, I remember in Britain how many people started hating the Irish because of the Republican terrorism. The same thing is happening now against Muslims, 99.9% of whom as peace loving people who just want to get on. 
has been aggressively marketed


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## Jacck (Dec 24, 2017)

Dimace said:


> To tell you the truth, my dear friend and neighbor, I don't believe to bad religions. I believe to bad or very bad men. In Czech Republic you don't have fugitives or illegal emigrants. It is your government decision and I respect it. Here in Germany we have many. What I can tell you is that, you believe it or not, the women LIKE to be suppressed! Why here in Germany are dressed the same way as in their countries? They can throw away all these black vales, they can show us their faces, their bodies, they can feel free. But they don't do it. What are they afraid of? It is nothing to be afraid! I can tell you MANY stories with women (from Arabia) they ferociously resisted to abandon their country habits. (integration we are calling this...) Cheers to very beautiful Czech Republic with the amazing Prague and the more amazing women!


Of course you are right, Dimace. I traveled a lot in my life. I spend many months in Asia, Africa, over a year in the US. I lived in Germany for about 4 years (Nordrhein-Westfalen) and than in Vienna for about 4 years. I spend my student years in Prague, but everywhere there are good and bad people, clever and dumb people, moral and immoral people. All the good people from all over the planet can understand each other, but the bad people get entrenched in their nationality, religion, political ideology and use violence against the rest. The real enemies of all the good people in the world are greed, intolerance, violence, ideological or religious brainwashing


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

mbhaub said:


> Re that last sentence: I was horrified when the manta "Hey Hey Ho Ho, Western Civ has got to go" came out. These are not my words:
> 
> The title of this week's column was a student protest chant started by *Jesse Jackson* at Stanford University in the 80's. The idea was to throw out the university's required courses on Western Culture because they were filled with "*European and Western male bias*" and replace them with courses that teach non-Western cultures and "works by women, minorities, and persons of color." Jackson was successful - *today almost all colleges and universities stress A.C.B.W. (Any Culture But Western)* courses and ignore the classic teachings of Western civilization's "white men." Looking back now, over two decades later, we can see the results of Jackson's efforts. How do you like it?
> Anti-Western civilization is what's cool. Third world is wonderful, Western civ is bad. "Multicultural" is all inclusive, right? Wrong. Anything called "multicultural" never includes the American culture. Colleges and universities have been teaching anti-Western dogma for years; popular music has been rapping that tune for a couple of decades; media like the press and TV and movies push it, and you even see it in the edgy names of big chain retail stores.
> ...


This has been well answered but I can't resist expressing my own astonishment at your linking a growing interest in what others in the world are thinking and doing with ... (do I have you right here?) ... what you claim is a devastating attack on "Western culture". Why such misery and surrender? Why resent thinkers and trends that have so little influence still? And where are your own enlightened ideas?

And then I think that what is really happening - and is perhaps pushing people towards strange doctrines and populism - is a steady erosion of our gains in terms of human rights and equality? This attack on what the enlightenment gave us is not coming from developing countries. It is coming from unrestrained greed of the uncontrolled big corporations and the super-rich.


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## Dimace (Oct 19, 2018)

Enthusiast said:


> Actually, Islam is a religion rather than a culture and like most major religions has a wide variety of variants, schools and so on. I think you are probably reacting to a version of Islam that is very restricting and dogmatic. It has been spread around the world via funding for mosques by Saudi donors. *It is nasty,* I think, (and in the same way that Christian fundamentalist groups are nasty) but don't make the mistake of calling it Islam. Also, I remember in Britain how many people started hating the Irish because of the Republican terrorism. The same thing is happening now against Muslims, 99.9% of whom as peace loving people who just want to get on.
> has been aggressively marketed


This is the Sharia or Saria. Awful! They treating men like animals. They can execute you without any serious reason. Terrorism!


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## Jacck (Dec 24, 2017)

Enthusiast said:


> Actually, Islam is a religion rather than a culture and like most major religions has a wide variety of variants, schools and so on. I think you are probably reacting to a version of Islam that is very restricting and dogmatic. It has been spread around the world via funding for mosques by Saudi donors. It is nasty, I think, (and in the same way that Christian fundamentalist groups are nasty) but don't make the mistake of calling it Islam. Also, I remember in Britain how many people started hating the Irish because of the Republican terrorism. The same thing is happening now against Muslims, 99.9% of whom as peace loving people who just want to get on.
> has been aggressively marketed


I am aware of it. There is even a branch of Islam I admire - sufism. The Masnavi I Ma'navi of Rumi (which is a monumental work I own in 2 different translations) is significantly better than anything in the Judeo-Christian Bible (with the possible exception of Ecclesiastes). Unfortunately, it is these extremist primitive versions of Islam that are dominant today in the world. The most toxic version is the wahhabism coming from Saudi Arabia and being the ideology behind all those terrorist attacks


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## JosefinaHW (Nov 21, 2015)

mbhaub said:


> Re that last sentence: I was horrified when the manta "Hey Hey Ho Ho, Western Civ has got to go" came out. These are not my words:
> 
> The title of this week's column was a student protest chant started by *Jesse Jackson* at Stanford University in the 80's. The idea was to throw out the university's required courses on Western Culture because they were filled with "*European and Western male bias*" and replace them with courses that teach non-Western cultures and "works by women, minorities, and persons of color." Jackson was successful - *today almost all colleges and universities stress A.C.B.W. (Any Culture But Western)* courses and ignore the classic teachings of Western civilization's "white men." Looking back now, over two decades later, we can see the results of Jackson's efforts. How do you like it?
> Anti-Western civilization is what's cool. Third world is wonderful, Western civ is bad. "Multicultural" is all inclusive, right? Wrong. Anything called "multicultural" never includes the American culture. Colleges and universities have been teaching anti-Western dogma for years; popular music has been rapping that tune for a couple of decades; media like the press and TV and movies push it, and you even see it in the edgy names of big chain retail stores.
> ...


This was already going on in universities in the US in the 60's. My "godfather" told me that he experienced this when he was an undergraduate in the early 60's.


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## JosefinaHW (Nov 21, 2015)

Larkenfield said:


> I believe the death of CM to the young has been greatly exaggerated:
> 
> This Mozart upload has over 164 million views in five years despite its competition from other genres. I would say that's a respectable showing and more indicative of life than death. Mozart would probably have to live 20 lifetimes in order to be heard by that many people ... and the 1000 year history of the music appears stronger than dirt, starting with Hildegard of Bingen.


I am thrilled if I see over a million views for something in the CM realm! Another thing that is very hopeful is the popularity of music theory and practice videos on YouTube. Granted some of the videos uploaded are by someone trying to encourage people to purchase their entire series of videos, but people are still able to learn quite a bit.

I recently came across this one while I was searching on YouTube for info re/ Bach's chorale harmonizations:






I hope the guy gets so popular that school systems and/or philanthropies start to fund him for large institutional or library access, so that he can offer more free videos on YouTube. (He frequently uses both the UK/US terms when they vary and his courses are NOT ONLY designed to help people pass their exams.)


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

JosefinaHW said:


> This was already going on in universities in the US in the 60's. My "godfather" told me that he experienced this when he was an undergraduate in the early 60's.


Even sexual identities are being destroyed in the West. This is an attack at the most basic levels, but few seem interested in fighting back. So...maybe better kiss it all good-bye.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

KenOC said:


> Even sexual identities are being destroyed in the West. This is an attack at the most basic levels, but few seem interested in fighting back. So...maybe better kiss it all good-bye.


Do you know anyone whose sexual identity has been destroyed? I don't. But I know people whose sexual identities no longer have to be kept secret or repressed for fear of ostracism and violence, including suicide. Who are the people who feel their "most basic levels" attacked by the liberation of others from fear and self-loathing?


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

Woodduck said:


> Do you know anyone whose sexual identity has been destroyed?


It will certainly result from these efforts:



> It's that small children too young to understand the way babies are made are being encouraged (pushed?) into making decisions about their bodies in order to join an exclusive club whose members preach tolerance while rejecting the possibility that young kids might just be playing dress-up.





> Four-year-old infants in Brighton are being asked to "choose" the gender they "identify" with before they even start school.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Fritz Kobus said:


> It will certainly result from these efforts:


It's not clear what that means. As stated it sounds ridiculous, but these days we can't believe anything "as stated."

Gender identity - which is not the same as physical sexual identity - is typically fluid in small children and certainly should not be forced by adults. "Playing dress-up" is often a part of the process of gender identity formation, which normally proceeds without interference. If children are being asked to decide upon a gender identity at a young age the effort is certainly misguided, and will be recognized as such by child psychologists. No need for panic about the state of the culture.

"Traditional" views of sex and gender (you know, "goils were goils and men were men" and "God made Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve"), had no hesitancy about forcing gender and sexual roles on children ("Boys don't cry! Boys don't play with dolls! Girls don't grow up to be President! What do you mean my son is queer? Are you trying to destroy this family?"). If there's an overcorrection in some quarters - if some people are a little lost and irrational in trying to find their way out of centuries of repression and child abuse - it'll settle out.


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## JosefinaHW (Nov 21, 2015)

KenOC said:


> Even sexual identities are being destroyed in the West. This is an attack at the most basic levels, but few seem interested in fighting back. So...maybe better kiss it all good-bye.


I am not sure if you are being facetious here, Ken. I also think we are straying off into discussions that belong down below, but I am not going to subject myself to being attacked by the equivalent of a rabid hyena or pack of rabid hyenas--God help me, I mean no insult to hyenas. Part of the problem that I just want to avoid ANYWHERE on the internet, is having to first "prove" that I and my current thoughts do not fit into terrible, inaccurate categories. I can say one thing and a majority of people or better, a majority of very vocal people on the internet will have me categorized as something that is completely misrepresented.

*And I say "I" but this applies to almost anyone on the internet.

*So there it is, I could use very specific (although anonymous) cases where I have seen young adults--high school and college kids who are so confused and screwed-up that they wind-up in the hospital and intensive group therapy. But I can't talk about that here (and rightly so!!!) and I'm not going to be a masochist and descend into the other arena. Unfortunately, I'll have to wait to find an interesting little group in a cafe or who knows where.


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## DaveM (Jun 29, 2015)

Only on TC can the subject of ‘Is Classical Music Dying Slowly’ meander into questions of what is Islam and then pivot to gender identity. I was thinking about introducing the health benefits of tea.


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## Dimace (Oct 19, 2018)

LOL! We went somewhere else, but it is a very good conversation. We have all the ingredients for a new crazy titled thread: Do Islam and the problematic sexual orientation in any way affect the classical music? LOL! 


Actually, this undeliberated wideness on very specific questions and problems, is very philosophical. I like it. Based on Platon dialectical method, drives to the core of the theoretical research, which is the mother of science. I'm very proud, because in this great forum are members can support such intellectual experiments. I'm learning new things in such situations and this is SUPER!


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

JosefinaHW said:


> I am thrilled if I see over a million views for something in the CM realm!






Four Seasons ~ Vivaldi - 192,242,179 views




Beethoven - Moonlight Sonata (FULL) - 120,805,712 views




Chopin - Nocturne op.9 No.2 - 100,795,578 views




Symphony No. 9 ~ Beethoven - 93,491,703 views




Mozart - Requiem - 87,884,230 views




The Best of Classical Music - Mozart, Beethoven, Bach, Chopin - 74,850,516 views


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## Merl (Jul 28, 2016)

OT: no, classical music wont die. As others have said, it goes through periods of popularity and neglect but its always there and such wonderful meloodies have survived hundreds of years. I'm confident they will last at least another few hundred years.


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## David Pinnegar (Jan 16, 2019)

In my opinion it's because classical music isn't speaking meaningfully. It's not communicating emotion.

The emotion was robbed from our music in the latter half of the 19th century when it became important commercially to sell pianos on an industrial scale for use as the home entertainment focus in the corner of the living room for those who wanted to show that they could afford one.

For such people manufacturers produced pianos upon which Chopsticks could be played without making nasty(er) sounds. Such sounds aren't the genre to which we ascribe.

They did this by removing the colour from the Chromatic Scale so successfully that the Wiki articles on Chromatic Scale and Chromatism are blind to the real meaning associated with colour. Colour not that you can see but providing a spectrum of sound not unlike the spectrum of the rainbow in the sky.






This is why the tuning of our instruments is so really important and is a subject that our mainstream tuners and manufacturers have not done us favours for the past century and a half.

This is why on 6th May 2019 a group of friends are putting Tuning and Temperament on the table for experience and discussion with a seminar at Hammerwood Park, Sussex UK and I hope that musicians, technicians, manufacturers and enthusiasts will enjoy, participate, play and or listen.

The problem is that music has become an entertainment rather than an important literature of emotion, an essential communication beyond the limitations of words, and as such the entertainment is optional and considered an area in which school budgets can be cut politically. No-one would be quite so casual at cutting Shakespeare out of the educational budgets.

Let's bring emotional meaning of music back to life! The Campaign for Real Music!

Best wishes

David Pinnegar


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## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

But that's what makes classical so special: it's all about emotions. It's about connecting to other people. But one of the problems is one you mention: today, it is impossible to NOT hear music. It's everywhere, all the time. On TV, radio, movies. Grocery stores and other places to shop. I can't even go to a pub without having loud music assault my ears. So hearing music has replaced listening. 100 years ago music wasn't so easily available, you had to actively search it out. The electronics era hadn't started, and the phonograph then was quite limited. Can you imagine the overwhelming experience of hearing the Mahler 8th in what was then a quiet world? Must have been thrilling.

Now as to pianos: since recordings and broadcasting were still off in the future, if you wanted to hear music, one alternative was to make it yourself at home on your piano. There were far more young people learning piano than nowadays. Family and friends would gather and sing. Lots of composers, good and mediocre, wrote volumes of music for home consumption. And people knew how to sing and read music. Look at church hymnals from 100 years ago - they were all written in 4-part harmony. Now, many hymnals just include the tune since people don't sing like they used to. I know about this: I lived it. My grandparents lived on a small farm in the American Midwest. Both had an 8th grade education (which was more meaningful than HS education today). Grandma took piano lessons from an Austrian immigrant and she played quite well. It seemed everyone played at least a bit. On Sunday afternoons after church, people in the area would gather and share a meal, then go to the parlor. Out came the music books. We would sing anything and everything from Stephen Foster to Handel. There was no TV. Radio was limited to a couple of AM stations out of Ames or Fort Dodge. It never occurred to me at the time, but later I realized that all of these relatives and friends were from immigrant families: people from Germany and Sweden mostly. Some Polish and Bohemians. Music was in their blood. The last time I was back in that area, this way of life was extinct. Now, Sunday afternoons are for football via satellite TV. The pianos and pump organs have been tossed out. It's sad, really. I miss "real" music.


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## JosefinaHW (Nov 21, 2015)

hammeredklavier said:


> Four Seasons ~ Vivaldi - 192,242,179 views
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I KNOW there are MANY CM pieces on YouTube with well over a million views and not just the one's you'd probably expect such as those listed here and I think that is fabulous!  It seems that those videos frequently appear in the recommended video stream.

Also, I have noticed that many of what we might call more obscure/common pieces get large number of views because they are used in films and "tv" soundtracks--I especially love that, because those piece make a very strong impact on the viewer because the music is tied to an exciting or emotionally powerful visual scene. One that comes immediately to my poor memory is _Fantasy on a Theme by Thomas Tallis_ from _Master and Commander. _ I don't know if these videos have millions of views but people frequently state that the movie introduced the piece to them as well as Bach's _Cello Suites_. That film has drawn so many people to CM. :tiphat:


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## JosefinaHW (Nov 21, 2015)

David Pinnegar said:


> In my opinion it's because classical music isn't speaking meaningfully. It's not communicating emotion.
> 
> The emotion was robbed from our music in the latter half of the 19th century when it became important commercially to sell pianos on an industrial scale for use as the home entertainment focus in the corner of the living room for those who wanted to show that they could afford one.
> 
> ...


David, I also have wanted to say that it is an honor and privilege to have you as a new member of TC. I don't think I will be able to understand the mathematical principles behind the various tuning systems, but I look forward to watching all the videos you posted. They will help us to hear the effects of those different types of tuning. (A little request, as a Bach fan, I hope you will have the time to post a few videos with different tuning, so that we can here these differences emotionally.)


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

mbhaub said:


> But that's what makes classical so special: it's all about emotions. It's about connecting to other people. But one of the problems is one you mention: *today, it is impossible to NOT hear music. It's everywhere, all the time.* On TV, radio, movies. Grocery stores and other places to shop. I can't even go to a pub without having loud music assault my ears. So *hearing music has replaced listening. 100 years ago music wasn't so easily available, you had to actively search it out.* The electronics era hadn't started, and the phonograph then was quite limited. Can you imagine the overwhelming experience of hearing the Mahler 8th in what was then a quiet world? Must have been thrilling.
> 
> Now as to pianos: since recordings and broadcasting were still off in the future, if you wanted to hear music, one alternative was to *make it yourself at home on your piano. There were far more young people learning piano than nowadays. Family and friends would gather and sing.* Lots of composers, good and mediocre, wrote volumes of music for home consumption. And people knew how to sing and read music. *Look at church hymnals from 100 years ago - they were all written in 4-part harmony. Now, many hymnals just include the tune since people don't sing like they used to.* I know about this: I lived it. My grandparents lived on a small farm in the American Midwest. Both had an 8th grade education (which was more meaningful than HS education today). Grandma took piano lessons from an Austrian immigrant and she played quite well. *It seemed everyone played at least a bit. On Sunday afternoons after church, people in the area would gather and share a meal, then go to the parlor. Out came the music books. We would sing anything and everything from Stephen Foster to Handel. *There was no TV. Radio was limited to a couple of AM stations out of Ames or Fort Dodge. It never occurred to me at the time, but later I realized that all of these relatives and friends were from immigrant families: people from Germany and Sweden mostly. Some Polish and Bohemians. Music was in their blood. The last time I was back in that area, this way of life was extinct. *Now, Sunday afternoons are for football via satellite TV. The pianos and pump organs have been tossed out. It's sad, really. I miss "real" music.*


My early experiences of music in the home and at church are essentially the same. Assuming we are of similar age, ours was the last generation to taste the "old world" culture of music-making which was already dying in many places. In the 1940s and '50s music was not yet a ubiquitous wallpaper, and classical music was still a piece, if only a small piece, in the tapestry of common musical experience even in unpretentious homes where there were pianos and people who played them. And yes, people who made no claim to be musicians sang the harmony parts in the church hymnal!

Of course we're talking about a kind of music that people can sing and play, and that kind of music is itself the voice of a world that's gone. Music has changed, classical music now has nothing to do with a musical vernacular, and families couldn't sing it even if they had pianos to gather round. Young people will not get to know music the way we did. For me, "classical music" is primarily a thing of the past because the culture which nurtured it at its roots has vanished. How it will survive in the future no longer concerns me much, but I'm sure it will in various forms. Young people will discover it in numbers sufficient to keep it alive.


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## Pyotr (Feb 26, 2013)

Attendance at classical music concerts been steadily decreasing in this century(as well as the amount of students enrolling into classical music programs, but that’s another story.) It won’t be long before the local symphony orchestra will be a thing of the past — governments and patrons will get tired of propping them up. The Philadelphia Orchestra, for example, has yearly expenses of $50 million, but only $17 million is from ticket sales, the rest is from patrons/donors. That can’t last forever. It needs to reengage a new and younger audience. The “industry” needs “buzz” and going to a concert should be “cool.”

Also, none of the top thousand paid downloads from itunes in 2018 was classical. So I'm not convinced about " hope on the horizon. "


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## fliege (Nov 7, 2017)

science said:


> I would like to add to this discussion by providing the link below, from Google Trends, that shows the number of searches of the topic "classical music" at google in all the world since 2004 until today. The graphic shows a decline in interest for the topic over the years:
> I hope this is at least in part because the Mozart effect has been debunked!


Your graph shows search hits for "classical music" going down but Google trends data are very difficult to draw conclusions from. I added some more genres. I added to your graph "pop music", "rock music", "hip hop", and "dance music". What do you reckon the graph looks like? ...

https://trends.google.com/trends/ex...gq0m,pop music,rock music,hip hop,dance music

Let's follow that up with "music", "jazz", and "movies":
https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?cat=3&date=all&q=music,jazz,movies

Make of that what you will.


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## Larkenfield (Jun 5, 2017)

fliege said:


> Your graph shows search hits for "classical music" going down but Google trends data are very difficult to draw conclusions from. I added some more genres. I added to your graph "pop music", "rock music", "hip hop", and "dance music". What do you reckon the graph looks like? ...
> 
> https://trends.google.com/trends/ex...gq0m,pop music,rock music,hip hop,dance music
> 
> ...


If these graphs are accurate, it looks like music in general has been on the decline at least when compared to the rising interest in movies. This even includes pop. Since people are doing more streaming of music there would be less need to do an Internet search and that could be a reflection of the apparent decline of interest on these graphs regarding the different genres of music. I mostly lament the decline of music education in the US and the apparent lack of interest by the Federal leadership in the arts of what is supposed to be a civilized country. The economic downturn of 11 years ago didn't help either. Some orchestras got saddled with millions of dollars of debt after building expensive new cathedrals of listening, such as in Philadelphia. But I must say that one of my favorite orchestras (heard on PBS) is the Detroit Symphony under Leonard Slatkin. The best Tchaikovsky Symphony No. 5 I've heard was under his direction and Detroit has had all kinds of economic problems over the years. But yet there they are with a superb orchestra, at least as of now. I think these orchestras are pillars of culture in this country and they continue to uplift the community in ways that cannot always be measured directly, though the economic benefits to the community can be measured, and they do exist. Kansas City has one of the best arts support programs in the country that generates millions upon millions of dollars for the community. Perhaps the problem is not the music but the short-sighted people in positions of leadership who have no time to support what enhances the basic quality of life rather than mostly commercial interests.

The Arts in Kansas City: https://www.visitkc.com/visitors/things-do/arts-and-culture/everything-you-need-know-about-arts-and-culture-kc#sm.0000041didga1pfl6y2wf4hwdxay3
National Arts Funding in Kansas and Missouri passed by Congress: 
https://www.kcur.org/post/kansas-and-missouri-arts-organizations-get-national-funding-boost#stream/0


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## Taggart (Feb 14, 2013)

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-46947959

An attempt to create a new classical station in the UK. The interesting point for this thread is :



> The launch comes amid resurgent interest in classical music - it was the fastest-growing musical genre in 2018, with sales and streams up 10% on the previous year.


OK some of that is "easy- listening" type music but that's exactly what we had in the 50's pop classics like von Suppé's Light Cavalry Overture. That's what got many people into classical music not the heavy duty Third Programme but the Light Programme.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

I get a bit queasy when somebody suggests that our government ought to support "our kind" of music with public funds. First, it's not as if it's hard to find or expensive - in fact, it's more readily available, and far cheaper, than at any time in history.

Second, it's a fringe enthusiasm, deeply unpopular compared with almost any other genre of music. Government subsidies would be an attempt to spread a quite narrow definition of "culture" among larger segments of the population who may have far different definitions of the word. At least in the US, government's not supposed to work that way.

The following table is from Nielsen Music's 2017 Year-end Report. It speaks for itself. (The full report can be downloaded from here.)


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## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

Pyotr said:


> It won't be long before the local symphony orchestra will be a thing of the past - governments and patrons will get tired of propping them up.


There used to be a principle known as_ noblesse oblige_. The old money like Rockefeller, Carnegie, Dupont, Westinghouse, and others felt it necessary as a function of good citizenship and a good society to fund things like libraries, concert halls, opera, colleges and yes, orchestras. Today's uber-wealthy, the tech-billionaires (and there are many) don't have that interest. If they're not buying mansions in private communes in Hawaii, buying whole buildings in NY or San Francisco, or building Rock n Roll museums, they're giving money for humanitarian ventures, like cleaning the ocean, providing clean water, or disease immunization. Very few members of the new wealth seem to have any interest or concern about fine arts. By all rights, the orchestras in San Francisco and Seattle should be rolling in dough - but they're not. They do all right, and it was nice of a donor to build a great hall for the Seattle Symphony. I read somewhere once that if a fund of $5 billion could be raised, the interest it could earn would be enough to fund most of our orchestras for a long time. And when you think about the vast wealth of so many people, $5 billion isn't all that much. But, it will never happen...


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## Red Terror (Dec 10, 2018)

Meh, dont worry about it—classical music will outlive all of us and once you're dead, who cares?


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

mbhaub said:


> There used to be a principle known as_ noblesse oblige_. The old money like Rockefeller, Carnegie, Dupont, Westinghouse, and others felt it necessary as a function of good citizenship and a good society to fund things like libraries, concert halls, opera, colleges and yes, orchestras...


In fact, even today the bulk of the operating costs of US orchestras is covered by private donations. On average ticket revenues pay only 35-40% of costs, and most of the rest comes from private funding. I don't know if that has changed from earlier times...

Also, in the days of those charitable robber barons, the rich had their great mansions downtown and no doubt enjoyed having convenient venues for their own gratification. Today many central cities, where the costly halls are located, are peopled by the poor rather than the rich, who have relocated well away. The prospect of traveling there for an evening concert might be off-putting for some.

And what does it really cost for two people to attend a concert? Count in not just the tickets, but also the transportation, the baby-sitter, parking, maybe a nice downtown dinner… Might be better just to sit at home and listen to Mahler on your nice stereo, drinking a beer. After all, a live orchestral concert is just another music delivery system, and there may be good reasons for it to fade.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

I would like to think that classical music isn't dying but changing. 

In terms of issues to do with the recording industry, that's not restricted to classical. Even in its halcyon days of the post WWII decades, the best selling classical recordings where the popular types - eg. orchestral pops type albums - while the majority of highbrow music sold at a much more slow and steady rate. There's always a question of balancing the big sellers with the steady sellers. Convention has been for the former to fund the latter and composers would do the same, their most popular music funding the rest of their less profitable output (the best example is Brahms' Hungarian Dances). This may largely be irrelevant now with downloads, streaming, youtube which have shaken the foundations of the entire recording industry.

The traditional orchestral concert format emerged in the 19th century, Mendelssohn's years at Leipzig being the start of presenting a mix of old and new. The bourgeois was on the rise and aristocracy in decline, so this is when public concerts became the norm. There was an aspiration to acquire good taste, and culture was also viewed as a way of elevating the whole society.

I don't think that two hundred years is a bad run for the traditional concert format. In any case today, there is has been a tendency of diversifying beyond it. There have been attempts to cater for those who would not in any sense describe themselves as classical conessieurs. In any large city, there are many who for example would not be averse to having the occasional night on the town going to a concert and dinner. Classical music is no longer about aspiration to good taste and is merely among the broad array of entertainment choices competing for the money of the populations of large cities.

Here in Australia, orchestral concerts featuring films being screened whilst the score is simultaneously being performed live have been popular and a lucrative source of income. This has helped maintain viability of orchestras, and Opera Australia has done a similar thing with performing musicals such as My Fair Lady. Opera though has been in the red for decades, and I see it as a white elephant. I wouldn't shed a tear if it where abolished and its funding diverted to remedy problems that orchestras are having. They have a better hope of surviving than opera.

To my knowledge the only classical group to bring in a profit nationwide is the Australian Chamber Orchestra. Their approach has been to present different formats, from traditional to multimedia (combining live music with film, poetry, dancing, etc.) and they also have a sort of clone youth orchestra (ACO2). They've tended to feature performers before they hit the big time (one of them was Patricia Kopatchinskaja) and either commission or perform some new works.

In terms of classical music and youth, I think that even more than the wider society, the digital revolution has impacted on them in positive and negative ways. The most positive thing is less sectarianism in music compared to before. I never forget the composer John Adams reflecting on the tracks on his son's ipod. There where all types of music there, all genres. I see the most negative thing is a sense of isolationism, by which I mean the way in which listening on the go, at school, work or home, means its now the norm to listen alone. Of course, its canned music, no longer live.

The reason why I started my post expressing the hope that classical isn't dying is that there are signs that the industry is adapting to these new realities. Some are coming from the big institutions which I discussed, others are occuring on the ground. Just as in Mendelssohn's time, which was the era of the industrial revolution, our own age of the digital revolution is totally transforming how we live our lives. This includes music, and my hope is that more music can happen on the ground in local communities and branch out from there. There are small signs of this emerging, although I don't think its a massive change yet. I hope it grows and I am happy to attend these sorts of events.


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## Luchesi (Mar 15, 2013)

Many kids used to want to learn an instrument so that they could play their favorite songs from their favorite bands. That's not as intriguing as it used to be for a few regrettable reasons, which aren't easy to fix.

Humans like to make pictures and make music and watch other humans in organized situations AND they very much like to chat, like the other primates. Fewer people are doing the former and many more are now enchanted by aimless chatting and following friends online. Creative activities have lost out in terms of the available time. I find myself texting a friend about something important and then continuing to text back-and-forth, just chatting and joking, for longer periods of time.

If kids don't develop a maturing interest in successive types of music from about 12 to the late 20s, there will be too many other distractions later, like family and work and passive entertainment choices, spectator sports and favorite teams. According to the futurists we're going to have a lot more spare time. Musicmaking can be as fulfilling in later life as reading and writing, which are still considered necessary in education. What are the generations going to do with all that increasing spare time? Do the educators even think about such a different future?


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## Dimace (Oct 19, 2018)

KenOC said:


> I get a bit queasy when somebody suggests that our government ought to support "our kind" of music with public funds. First, it's not as if it's hard to find or expensive - in fact, it's more readily available, and far cheaper, than at any time in history.
> 
> Second, it's a fringe enthusiasm, deeply unpopular compared with almost any other genre of music. Government subsidies would be an attempt to spread a quite narrow definition of "culture" among larger segments of the population who may have far different definitions of the word. At least in the US, government's not supposed to work that way.
> 
> The following table is from Nielsen Music's 2017 Year-end Report. It speaks for itself. (The full report can be downloaded from here.)


I have written that we are not only minority but also the aristocracy of the human spirit. This table says one truth I have accepted from the beginning, when, as a child, I decided to follow the narrow path of the quality and not the highway of mediocracy. Classical 1%, Jazz 1% Perfect! (for me) The music I love and I listen.


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## Xisten267 (Sep 2, 2018)

KenOC said:


> I get a bit queasy when somebody suggests that our government ought to support "our kind" of music with public funds. First, it's not as if it's hard to find or expensive - in fact, it's more readily available, and far cheaper, than at any time in history.
> 
> Second, it's a fringe enthusiasm, deeply unpopular compared with almost any other genre of music. Government subsidies would be an attempt to spread a quite narrow definition of "culture" among larger segments of the population who may have far different definitions of the word. At least in the US, government's not supposed to work that way.
> 
> The following table is from Nielsen Music's 2017 Year-end Report. It speaks for itself. (The full report can be downloaded from here.)


WTF, children music sells more than classical.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Allerius said:


> WTF, children music sells more than classical.


Yes, the more simple, primitive, and undemanding music is, the better it sells. What - you were expecting humanity to have evolved?


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## Dimace (Oct 19, 2018)

Woodduck said:


> Yes, the more simple, primitive, and undemanding music is, the better it sells. What - you were expecting humanity to have evolved?


Respect!! Cheap - Cheaper - Cheapest and we have the music is sold and listened today. Semi- dressed Ladies, with big boobs and bigger pops shaking and screaming like psychopaths, the same moment, wild boys and girls worship for the new idols of an unknown crazy pseudo - God or Godes... Honestly I have nothing against the porno. I live in a free country. But I will never accept porno- music. And today we have this. No Rock. No Pop. Everything is nothing. He remains Phil to sing from his wheel chair… A true great! But he has to make a record from 2002... Fredy died very young. Reo were disbanded. Mark stepped down. Rock in thirst place... Pathetic. Classic and Jazz till to the bitter end! Period.


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## fliege (Nov 7, 2017)

Dimace said:


> I live in a free country. But I will never accept porno- music. And today we have this. No Rock. No Pop. Everything is nothing.


I haven't listed to what's on the charts in years but I put on the Spotify charts -- what's trending now, apparently -- and my! It's depressing. I won't say it all sounds the same, because that's always a weak argument to attack music you aren't familiar with. I will say that it all seems to be vocals on top of drum tracks and synths. It sounds easy to produce and likely as a corpus is produced by committee. We've had "instrumentless" boy and girl bands of this sort for at least 20 years, but now it appears *most* popular music is like that rather than just a sub-set.

I'm not surprised interest in classical music is going down-hill: it would seem interest in music in general is being rapidly turned into something else.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

we moan and groan about the lack of interest in classical music among the young but then when artists such as Lang Lang and Yuja Wang do things in a way which tend to connect with young people the classical music establishment turns against them . I remember Lang Lang playing Liszt at a pop music festival. He was surrounded by young people and was roundly put down by the establishment for doing so. But such is the nature of the establishment beast


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Enthusiast said:


> Actually, Islam is a religion rather than a culture and like most major religions has a wide variety of variants, schools and so on. I think you are probably reacting to a version of Islam that is very restricting and dogmatic. It has been spread around the world via funding for mosques by Saudi donors. It is nasty, I think, (and *in the same way that Christian fundamentalist groups are nasty*) but don't make the mistake of calling it Islam. Also, I remember in Britain how many people started hating the Irish because of the Republican terrorism. The same thing is happening now against Muslims, 99.9% of whom as peace loving people who just want to get on.
> has been aggressively marketed


I would point out that the 'fundamentals' of the Christian are to love God, love one another and love your neighbour as yourself. I can't see anything remotely 'nasty' in that. Christian groups I know try and practice this, albeit, we realise, imperfectly. Or perhaps you've been believing the media who portray a few extremist groups as representative?


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

DavidA said:


> I would point out that the 'fundamentals' of the Christian are to love God, love one another and love your neighbour as yourself. I can't see anything remotely 'nasty' in that. Christian groups I know try and practice this, albeit, we realise, imperfectly. Or perhaps you've been believing the media who portray a few extremist groups as representative?


Cute play on words, but you know very well what Enthusiast is talking about, as he made it very clear. "Fundamentalist" refers to those groups in any religion who park their brains at the door and take a literal, unquestioning view of received scriptures and an intolerant attitude toward other views and ways of living, even - or especially - within their own religious traditions. Clearly you have no idea how nasty those "extremist groups" can be, and how influential they are on this side of the Atlantic. They constitute a very significant part of the American electorate, and it shouldn't be necessary to discuss the person they were indispensable in electing and continue to support regardless of his character, behavior, and wrecking-ball approach to governance.

Fundamentalism is the "anti-enlightenment" in action and a danger to the world, regardless of the culture in which it occurs.


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## Luchesi (Mar 15, 2013)

Woodduck -
"Fundamentalism is the "anti-enlightenment" in action and a danger to the world, regardless of the culture in which it occurs."

Who said that the first steps to committing an atrocity is believing in an absurdity? I think it's a paraphrase from centuries ago, so they understood that long ago. 
Some beliefs are dangerous not because of the positive sides and the effects of that belief in an absurdity, but because of what naturally becomes of it within societies filled with strife. It's not too difficult to follow the psychology of it. Groups are always looking for 'justifications', and the 'loftier' the better (not for the few leaders but for all the throngs of followers).


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

Fundamentalism has so many interpretations and definitions that it has to be clarified in each usage. To me Christian Fundamentalism is to hold to the orthodox faith as opposed to liberalization of that faith. Orthodox faith is also subject to a lot of variation and interpretation but generally would be those who hold that the Bible is the Word of God and absolutely reliable in its content (though subject to abusive misinterpretation if not carefully studied), where as liberals in the church are more inclined to say the Bible is not the Word of God but only contains the Word of God, to those who even say it is simply man's changing understanding of God over time. Personally, I hold a fundamental view of the Bible. That said, nobody calling themselves a Christian should advocate violence. The Christian as far as how one is to treat others is of loving your neighbor even if you totally disagree with them and personally can't stand them.


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## DaveM (Jun 29, 2015)

Unfortunately, the downside of Christian fundamentalism has been the premise that those who don’t recognize Christ as their savior will not experience Heaven as they, the fundamentalists define it, and the corollary that other religions and non-believers are ‘less than’. Mainstream, for want of a better word, Christians don’t make those distinctions and have respect for other belief systems.


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## fliege (Nov 7, 2017)

DavidA said:


> I remember Lang Lang playing Liszt at a pop music festival. He was surrounded by young people and was roundly put down by the establishment for doing so. But such is the nature of the establishment beast


I saw that peformance in a documentary about Lang Lang. Who put him down? Are there links?


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

DaveM said:


> Unfortunately, the downside of Christian fundamentalism has been the premise that those who don't recognize Christ as their savior will not experience Heaven as they, the fundamentalists define it, and the corollary that other religions and non-believers are 'less than'. Mainstream, for want of a better word, Christians don't make those distinctions and have respect for other belief systems.


Anyone who is thin skinned please skip the following. I am not trying to be offensive, just clear.

I don't want to call myself a fundamentalist as some such groups may be way off, but Jesus did say that no man comes to the father but by him and that is a very "fundamental" point. So from the understanding of the Bible as the very Word of God, and for the sake of discussion (not for the purpose of offending others), all other religions are Hell bound and a product of the Devil. (Remember Jesus said whoever is not with him is against him.) We do not have to respect other belief systems in that we do not have to accept them as alternate true systems, but at the same time we should be cautious to be humble in discussing the religions so as not to offend others unnecessary (others will be offended at the Christian message as the Bible says they will) or for our own pleasure, but must always deal with others in kindness and compassion, and sometimes that means walking away from further religious discussion since a heated argument is usually very unproductive.


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## Luchesi (Mar 15, 2013)

Fritz Kobus said:


> Anyone who is thin skinned please skip the following. I am not trying to be offensive, just clear.
> 
> I don't want to call myself a fundamentalist as some such groups may be way off, but Jesus did say that no man comes to the father but by him and that is a very "fundamental" point. So from the understanding of the Bible as the very Word of God, and for the sake of discussion (not for the purpose of offending others), all other religions are Hell bound and a product of the Devil. (Remember Jesus said whoever is not with him is against him.) We do not have to respect other belief systems in that we do not have to accept them as alternate true systems, but at the same time we should be cautious to be humble in discussing the religions so as not to offend others unnecessary (others will be offended at the Christian message as the Bible says they will) or for our own pleasure, but must always deal with others in kindness and compassion, and sometimes that means walking away from further religious discussion since a heated argument is usually very unproductive.


It's difficult to interpret what Jesus meant. He was the light unto his people, he thought about God the right way, and he wanted people to follow him -- to apparently save them from the anger of God. In some sense he was setting himself up as part of the Godhead, but those verses might be the interpretations which were opposing Jewish theology. Nobody knows what Jesus said. Nobody was there taking notes. He was remembered and memorialized and talked about after his death and people were impressed by episodes of his life.

Follow the light and follow the teachings and you will be metaphorically with God.

As I understand this, if people don't want to be 'with' God He doesn't force people. If you want to be with God you accept that it's as easy as Jesus was asserting. What more is there to it?


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## mmsbls (Mar 6, 2011)

The thread has become side-tracked into purely religious discussion. Please return the focus of the OP (or something closely related and do not continue with purely religious posts. If you want to discuss religion, please do so in the Groups. Future purely religious posts will be deleted.


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## JosefinaHW (Nov 21, 2015)

Dimace said:


> Respect!! Cheap - Cheaper - Cheapest and we have the music is sold and listened today. Semi- dressed Ladies, with big boobs and bigger pops shaking and screaming like psychopaths, the same moment, wild boys and girls worship for the new idols of an unknown crazy pseudo - God or Godes... Honestly I have nothing against the porno. I live in a free country. But I will never accept porno- music. And today we have this. No Rock. No Pop. Everything is nothing. He remains Phil to sing from his wheel chair… A true great! But he has to make a record from 2002... Fredy died very young. Reo were disbanded. Mark stepped down. Rock in thirst place... Pathetic. Classic and Jazz till to the bitter end! Period.


You are my intensity-level soulmate, Dima! :lol: and three kisses, a shot of unflavored-vodka-that-did-not-come-out-of-a-plastic-  bottle and a bear hug! Pack your bags and fly on over here to PA, USA. You and your girlfriend have a home here for as long as you like.

Now I don't understand any of the last bit, but I don't care about that., however, what are "pops"?


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## science (Oct 14, 2010)

No one comes to classical music but through beauty.


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## BabyGiraffe (Feb 24, 2017)

Most people don't really understand or appreciate classical music. I guess opera could have been way more popular, if there was less overdramatic vibrato.
Many of the late Renaissance and Galant compositions are based on popular dance forms and rhythms; too bad that so many contemporary composers are stuck in the atonal hole and don't really want to compose likeable music (maybe incorporating currently fashionable rhythms, instrumentation) with proper complexity, of course.


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## fliege (Nov 7, 2017)

BabyGiraffe said:


> Most people don't really understand or appreciate classical music.


I think I disagree. This attitude just turns people away: I know it turned me away for years because I believed it to be true.

There was a thread recently where a newcomer without musical background was worried about missing a lot in the music and not understanding. The bottom line is they were told not to worry about theory and just listen (I feel like I'm missing a lot!). That's good advice and true advice and it follows from it, IMO, that if you like what you're listening to and it moves you then you understand enough. i.e. if you appreciate you have a big chunk of understanding already.

Classical music is very common in movies and most people watch movies. I bet my left arm that when classical music is used in film "most people" don't think "oh crap, there's that annoying music I don't understand". I reckon for most people the music just sits in the background, doing its job as an extra source of emotional information to complement the film. It blends in perfectly and everyone understands it.

Of course being semi-conscious of background classical music isn't the same thing as sitting down to listen to classical music on its own or being a fan of it. My point is that most people are equipped with _appreciation_, they just don't know it and don't explore it for a bunch of reasons not really related to the music itself. e.g. their social group listens to other stuff, they already "know what they like and like what they know", etc.


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## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

BabyGiraffe said:


> Many of the late Renaissance and Galant compositions are based on popular dance forms and rhythms; too bad that so many contemporary composers are stuck in the atonal hole and don't really want to compose likeable music (maybe incorporating currently fashionable rhythms, instrumentation) with proper complexity, of course.


There are some composers who understand this simple concept. One is Mexican composer Arturo Marquez. His Danzon #2 is an exotic, tuneful, exciting work that is being played around the world - by professional and amateur orchestras alike. It's an intoxicating, infectious work. Many composers from South of the Border have written music along this line: Moncayo's Huapango is another popular one. There are some orchestras that play a fair amount of this music and audiences love it. Critics hate it. I still remember an article written over 40 years ago by a local critic when Eduardo Mata was conducting - he played a lot of this then obscure music. The critic chided him for too many "Mexican hat dances" and not enough "serious" contemporary (meaning atonal) music.


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## Luchesi (Mar 15, 2013)

BabyGiraffe said:


> Most people don't really understand or appreciate classical music. I guess opera could have been way more popular, if there was less overdramatic vibrato.
> Many of the late Renaissance and Galant compositions are based on popular dance forms and rhythms; too bad that so many contemporary composers are stuck in the atonal hole and don't really want to compose likeable music (maybe incorporating currently fashionable rhythms, instrumentation) with proper complexity, of course.


Is there some extramusical reason why people repeat this complaint over and over?

Please list your reasons why you think that composers should not compose what they know to be serious expression and they should instead compose likable music for people who want likable music.


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## Tikoo Tuba (Oct 15, 2018)

Luchesi said:


> ...compose likable music for people who want likable music.


Could the misanthrope compose music for likable people ? Certainly , when possessed by Oblivion . I am not sure of serious composers who write for children . That music can seem indulgently adult and impressive . And relates to what ?


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## DaveM (Jun 29, 2015)

Luchesi said:


> Is there some extramusical reason why people repeat this complaint over and over?
> 
> Please list your reasons why you think that composers should not compose what they know to be serious expression and they should instead compose likable music for people who want likable music.


What makes you think they 'know' what serious expression is? Melody and harmony have been removed. Then in another thread, we read that the music shouldn't be 'logical' and too much attention shouldn't be given to inner structure, and make sure to remove intellectual and pseudo-intellectual stufff, add a dollop of 'irrationality and finally, it's most important that it sounds good.

What this means to me is that composing much contemporary, particularly avant-garde music has become, at its worst, a practice of coming up with sound as random as possible, following as few rules as possible, with the goal of it sounding good to the composer however inaccessible it might be to the average listener.

Under these conditions, why wouldn't youth, that might otherwise be interested, scorn the genre?


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## Tikoo Tuba (Oct 15, 2018)

DaveM said:


> sound as random as possible, following as few rules as possible, with the goal of it sounding good


Excuse the extreme edit , DaveM . I found in your post a sublime description of music created and played by children .


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## Luchesi (Mar 15, 2013)

DaveM said:


> What makes you think they 'know' what serious expression is? Melody and harmony have been removed. Then in another thread, we read that the music shouldn't be 'logical' and too much attention shouldn't be given to inner structure, and make sure to remove intellectual and pseudo-intellectual stufff, add a dollop of 'irrationality and finally, it's most important that it sounds good.
> 
> What this means to me is that composing much contemporary, particularly avant-garde music has become, at its worst, a practice of coming up with sound as random as possible, following as few rules as possible, with the goal of it sounding good to the composer however inaccessible it might be to the average listener.
> 
> Under these conditions, why wouldn't youth, that might otherwise be interested, scorn the genre?


Thanks, that's a good summary about how people feel. They feel the same way about researchers in specialized fields of science. The world has moved on... and no longer can a person who does other things (and not cutting edge music nor cutting edge research) effortlessly follow these seemingly impenetrable subjects and pursuits. But there are people who are intrigued and inspired by the development of difficult music, where it came from and where the best of it is going. These people shouldn't be blocked by others who only want the older, likable music. ..And the research should proceed whether or not it's appreciated by the layman. The obligation is on the person, as he matures through the decades, to either catch up or just ignore it. How else could it be?


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## Luchesi (Mar 15, 2013)

Tikoo Tuba said:


> Could the misanthrope compose music for likable people ? Certainly , when possessed by Oblivion . I am not sure of serious composers who write for children . That music can seem indulgently adult and impressive . And relates to what ?


It's fairly easy with a little bit of background and practice to compose likable music. I do it right at the piano, and in public every week, and I have a lot of fun with it. It's just a matter of knowing the expected progressions and the pleasing overtones.


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## arpeggio (Oct 4, 2012)

*Let it die*

I recently saw a video about the decline of popular music. Even though it is very popular it is far inferior to the pop music of the Beatles and Bob Dylan. The video described the current conventions of popular music. While I was at a restaurant today I was listening to the pop music that was being droned in the background. While listening I found four of the songs which contained what some critics of popular music call the millennial whoop.

In short without getting, long winded, most classical music and many great non-classical works can sound complicated. The suits that control music have discovered that what sells is simple and sounds the same. All the pop songs I was hearing today sound the same. Classical music is too complicated to compete with that. It appears that in order for classical music to survive it al must sound the Justin Bieber's "Baby" or Katy Perry's "California Girl".

Just compare the lyrics to Bob Dylan's "The Times They Are a-Changin"

Come gather 'round people wherever you roam,
And admit that the waters around you have grown,
And accept it that soon you'll be drenched to the bone
If your time to you is worth savin'
Then you better start swimmin'
Or you'll sink like a stone
For the times they are a-changin'
Come writers and critics who prophecize with your pen
And keep your eyes wide,
The chance won't come again,
And don't speak too soon
For the wheel's still in spin
And there's no tellin' who
That it's namin'
For the loser now
Will be later to win
For the times they are a-changin'
Come senators, congressmen,
Please heed the call
Don't stand in the doorway,
Don't block the hall,
For he that' gets hurt
Will be he who has stalled,
There's a battle
Outside and it's ragin'
It'll soon shake your windows
And rattle your walls
For the times they are a-changin'
Come mothers and fathers
Throughout the land,
And don't criticize
What you can't understand
Your sons and your daughters
Are beyond your command,
Your old road is rapidly agin',
Please get out of the new one
If you can't lend your hand
For the times they are a-changin'
The line it is drawn,
The curse it is cast,
The slow one now will
Later be fast,
As the present now
Will later be past
The order is rapidly fadin'
And the first one now
Will later be last
For the times they are a-changin'

To the lyrics to "Baby"

Ooh whoa, ooh whoa, ooh whoa
You know you love me, I know you care
Just shout whenever and I'll be there
You are my love, you are my heart
And we will never, ever, ever be apart
Are we an item? Girl quit playin'
We're just friends, what are you sayin'
Said there's another, look right in my eyes
My first love, broke my heart for the first time
And I was like baby, baby, baby oh
Like baby, baby, baby no
Like baby, baby, baby oh
I thought you'd always be mine (mine)
Baby, baby, baby oh
Like baby, baby, baby no
Like baby, baby, baby ooh
I thought you'd always be mine
Oh for you, I would have done whatever
And I just can't believe we ain't together
And I wanna play it cool
But I'm losin' you
I'll buy you anything
I'll buy you any ring
And I'm in pieces, baby fix me
And just shake me, 'til you wake me from this bad dream
I'm goin' down, down, down, down
And I can't just believe my first love won't be around
And I'm like baby, baby, baby oh
Like baby, baby, baby no
Like baby, baby, baby oh
I thought you'd always be mine (mine)
Baby, baby, baby oh
Like baby, baby, baby no
Like baby, baby, baby ooh
I thought you'd always be mine
Luda, when I was thirteen, I had my first love
There was nobody that compared to my baby
And nobody came between us no one could ever come above
She had me goin' crazy
Oh, I was starstruck
She woke me up daily
Don't need no Starbucks
She made my heart pound
And skip a beat when I see her in the street and
At school on the playground
But I really wanna see her on the weekend
She know she got me dazin'
'Cause she was so amazin'
And now my heart is breakin'
But I just keep on sayin'
Baby, baby, baby oh
Like baby, baby, baby no
Like baby, baby, baby oh
I thought you'd always be mine (mine)
Baby, baby, baby oh
Like baby, baby, baby no
Like baby, baby, baby ooh
I thought you'd always be mine
Now I'm gone
Yeah, yeah, yeah
Yeah, yeah, yeah (now I'm all gone)
Yeah, yeah, yeah
Yeah, yeah, yeah (now I'm all gone)
Yeah, yeah, yeah
Yeah, yeah, yeah (now I'm all gone)
Gone, gone, gone, I'm gone

I would rather see classical music die if in order to survive is has to be dumbed down in order to compete with Taylor Swift, Justin Bieber or Katy Perry. This is the problem with most minimalist music. It does not take any thinking to listen to it. Classical music for the masses would make Mozart sound like Schoenberg.


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## Zofia (Jan 24, 2019)

Can’t read the OP colour kills my eyes


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## Haydn70 (Jan 8, 2017)

mbhaub said:


> Despite some hopeful signs, I am quite pessimistic about the decline of interest in classical music. Pop culture has won. But we're not alone:
> 1. Newpapers and magazines are dying.
> 2. Movies have by and large given way to loud, vulgar productions. Very few intelligent movies anymore - mostly super hero crap.
> 3. TV networks in the US mostly have poorly written, repetitive, unoriginal, dull shows. Long gone are the Paddy Chayevskys and Rod Serlings.
> ...


An excellent post, mbhaub. I especially like and fervently agree with item 10...spot on! Except that the assault is at least a couple of generations old!


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

ArsMusica said:


> An excellent post, mbhaub. I especially like and fervently agree with item 10...spot on! Except that the assault is at least a couple of generations old!


Depending on how you define "Western civilization and its incredible artistic heritage," the assault may have begun at almost any time of radical or precipitous change. The modernist era and the abandonment of tonality certainly signaled a momentous change in the history of music which some think crucial in altering the listening public's relationship with serious music. Blaming the public's lack of interest in classical music on "liberals" (also undefined) is lazy and silly and explains nothing. It could even be called a "witch hunt," historically a specialty of people who were anything but liberal in their thinking.

Is it too obvious a question to ask why the general public, including its youth, should be interested in classical music? Most of the classical music that people enjoy, and have enjoyed for a long time now, is music of the past. In what culture, and in what century before the 20th, has that been the case? Isn't it normal for human societies to make and enjoy their own music? And doesn't ours do that? Are contemporary people to be blamed for not frequenting the museums which are our concert halls? Or is it "liberals" who are discouraging them from listening to music written by and for people who wore powdered wigs and danced the minuet?


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## MatthewWeflen (Jan 24, 2019)

Here's the thing: most people already like _orchestral_ music. They buy movie scores by the millions, and movie makers keep choosing orchestral scores because people respond to them so fervently.

I think "classical" music is very daunting to the neophyte simply given its volume, and then it has added layers of exclusive jargon and snobbery among the fandom that repel people.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

I wouldn't blame "liberals" for this, although it is tempting. Western "classical music" seems to have run its course, just like Flemish and Dutch schools of paintings in the past. Today we encounter the masters of these schools only in museums. Why? Because no further outstanding paintings in their styles are being made.

Similarly, the centroid of our most popular classical music, as I calculate it, is in the first decade of the 19th century -- over 200 years ago. Even though music in the tradition is still being written, it seems that nobody much cares. Anyway, there's nothing wrong with museums!


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

arpeggio said:


> Just compare the lyrics to Bob Dylan's "The Times They Are a-Changin"
> 
> Come gather 'round people wherever you roam,
> And admit that the waters around you have grown,
> ...


That does suggest a decline, doesn't it? But if we go back just a little farther, we find such remarkable lyrics as:

I told the witch doctor I was in love with you
I told the witch doctor I was in love with you
And then the witch doctor he told me what to do
He said that

Ooo eee ooo ah ah ting tang walla walla bing bang
Ooo eee ooo ah ah ting tang walla walla bing bang
Ooo eee ooo ah ah ting tang walla walla bing bang
Ooo eee ooo ah ah ting tang walla walla bing bang

I told the witch doctor you didn't love me true
I told the witch doctor you didn't love me nice
And then the witch doctor he game me this advice
He said that

Ooo eee ooo ah ah ting tang walla walla bing bang
Ooo eee ooo ah ah ting tang walla walla bing bang
Ooo eee ooo ah ah ting tang walla walla bing bang
Ooo eee ooo ah ah ting tang walla walla bing bang

They don't write 'em like that any more.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

It was an itsy-bitsy teeny-weeny
Purple polka-dot bikini...

(Beethoven, Anh.19)


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

It was a one-eyed, one-horned, flyin' purple people eater...

(Schoenberg, rejected sketch for _Pierrot Lunaire_)


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Can't the inhabitants of this retirement home do something less disruptive with their time than subject the younger generation here to the classical music of the 1950s? Jigsaw puzzles, perhaps?


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

1970s OK?

I said "Doctor, ain't there nothin' I can take?'
I said, "Doctor, to relieve this belly ache,"
You put de lime in de coconut, you drink 'em bot' togedder
Put de lime in de coconut and you'll feel better,
Put de lime in de coconut, drink 'em bot' up,
Put de lime in de coconut and call me in the morning."
Woo-oo-oo-oo-oo-oo.

Schubert's got nothing on this guy.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

don't forget this gem:

Uno, dos, one, two, tres, quatro
Matty told Hatty about a thing she saw
Had two big horns and a wooly jaw
Wooly bully, wooly bully
Wooly bully, wooly bully, wooly bully
Hatty told Matty, let's don't take no chance
Let's not be l-seven, come and learn to dance
Wooly bully, wooly bully
Wooly bully, wooly bully, wooly bully
Matty told Hatty, that's the thing to do
Get you someone really to pull the wool with you
Wooly bully, wooly bully
Wooly bully, wooly bully, wooly bully


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Well, that answers my question.


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## fliege (Nov 7, 2017)

DaveM said:


> What this means to me is that composing much contemporary, particularly avant-garde music has become, at its worst, a practice of coming up with sound as random as possible, following as few rules as possible, with the goal of it sounding good to the composer however inaccessible it might be to the average listener.
> 
> Under these conditions, why wouldn't youth, that might otherwise be interested, scorn the genre?


There may be some indirect truth to this, but I don't think it's the proximal problem. Before listening extensively to classical music, I wasn't aware of serialism or of avant-garde classical. In fact, I was surprised to discover they existed. When I was younger I was uninterested in classical music in general for a host of other reasons. I finally became interested at the age of 21, when on a whim I bought a good classical compilation double CD. However, I became lost when considering what to listen to next and didn't follow it up. I pretty much had only that one CD until streaming came to the rescue (unbidden) some years later.


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## JosefinaHW (Nov 21, 2015)

KenOC said:


> Western "classical music" seems to have run its course, *just like Flemish and Dutch schools of paintings in the past. Today we encounter the masters of these schools only in museums*. Why? Because no further outstanding paintings in their styles are being made.
> 
> Similarly, the centroid of our most popular classical music, *as I calculate it,* is in the first decade of the 19th century -- over 200 years ago. *Even though music in the tradition is still being written, it seems that nobody much cares.* Anyway, there's nothing wrong with museums!


Many of us have reproductions of those paintings in our homes--they are not there because they are relics of a "better time." They are there because they are beautiful. Timelessly beautiful. And of course not just the Dutch and Flemish schools. We also have books filled with the art of past centuries: they are not just there to look good on a bookshelf; they are there because the art still speaks to us today in very powerful ways.

I suggest you read several years worth of _Art Connoisseur _and similar publications. You will see that there are artists who still produce works in the same style of past ages.

YOU may calculate that the most popular CM is first decade of 19th century, but not everyone does. And I believe that has already been demonstrated on this site by a listing of CD sales. I seriously doubt that TC membership (or those most vocal in polls, etc.) is an accurate representation of the population at large with regard to listening. In fact we do have very active listeners who adore ancient, renaissance and baroque music. Some of them also listen to a great deal of contemporary jazz. I think if you were to ask PMSummers or Bejart if they are listening to CM because they themselves are relics, well......

The art of that past is not dead.


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## JosefinaHW (Nov 21, 2015)

Woodduck said:


> Depending on how you define "Western civilization and its incredible artistic heritage," the assault may have begun at almost any time of radical or precipitous change. The modernist era and the abandonment of tonality certainly signaled a momentous change in the history of music which some think crucial in altering the listening public's relationship with serious music. *Blaming the public's lack of interest in classical music on "liberals" (also undefined) is lazy and silly and explains nothing*. It could even be called a *"witch hunt," historically a specialty of people who were anything but liberal in their thinking.*
> 
> Is it too obvious a question to ask why the general public, including its youth, should be interested in classical music? Most of the classical music that people enjoy, and have enjoyed for a long time now, is music of the past. In what culture, and in what century before the 20th, has that been the case? Isn't it normal for human societies to make and enjoy their own music? And doesn't ours do that? *Are contemporary people to be blamed for not frequenting the museums which are our concert halls?* Or is it "liberals" who are discouraging them from listening to music written by and for people who wore powdered wigs and danced the minuet?


I am going to start with calling our concert halls "museums." From what I've read on this forum I don't think you consider our concert halls "museums"! Be honest here. Would you say that if you were sitting in a opera house watching what you considered a fabulous performance of Parsifal, you were only observing a relic from another age and time? Ain't no way that I'm buying that. You speak of it as a timeless piece of truth that you experience with your entire being. That is just a very easy example.

When I watch the Berlin Philharmonic perform on their DigitalConcertHall I see people of all ages, wearing all different styles of clothes, and many are entranced in the music. It is very alive and very current and speaks to their minds and hearts.

(As to the liberals vs. the witch hunters.... you know very well what people mean by liberals in this thread, just as you have conveniently categorized complex human beings into the convenient label of "witch hunters. Both "sides" are "guilty here.)


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## JosefinaHW (Nov 21, 2015)

I would also like to here the thoughts of some of our young performers re/ whether they consider music of a past age as a relic and what they have heard from friends who are not interested in CM.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

JosefinaHW said:


> I am going to start with calling our concert halls "museums." From what I've read on this forum I don't think you consider our concert halls "museums"! Be honest here. Would you say that if you were sitting in a opera house watching what you considered a fabulous performance of Parsifal, you were only observing a relic from another age and time? Ain't no way that I'm buying that. You speak of it as a timeless piece of truth that you experience with your entire being. That is just a very easy example.
> 
> When I watch the Berlin Philharmonic perform on their DigitalConcertHall I see people of all ages, wearing all different styles of clothes, and many are entranced in the music. It is very alive and very current and speaks to their minds and hearts.
> 
> (As to the liberals vs. the witch hunters.... you know very well what people mean by liberals in this thread, just as you have conveniently categorized complex human beings into the convenient label of "witch hunters. Both "sides" are "guilty here.)


When I say that concert halls are museums, I'm not denigrating museums. The primary function of art museums is to preserve the art of the past. That's an honorable and necessary function. Concert halls and opera houses largely do the same, despite the occasional commissioning of works from contemporary composers, efforts such as the Met's present production of Muhly's (not very good) _Marnie,_ and the notorious regietheater "updating" of classic operas that strive to outdo each other in smartness.

Most of what we see in museums and hear in concert halls are indeed "relics," with no negative connotations intended. I love relics! They're an eternal fountain of inspiration, and for many the only relief from an aesthetically arid present.

(As to your last paragraph, I don't know what you're saying or what you thought I was saying. But it's off topic anyway.)


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## JosefinaHW (Nov 21, 2015)

I think art museums in particular have a much greater importance than preservation of the past, but key here is WHY they preserve those works of art. Sure people may want to see particular paintings to see how they influenced another school or particular artist. Yes, students of art history will go to observe similarities and differences, etc.. But primarily we preserve and come to see these works because they speak to us, they move us, they motivate us, they inspire us right now, right here in our contemporary situation.

Again, especially with something like music that has such a powerful emotional impact, most of the works we go to hear we go to hear because they speak to us right here right now about things that are timeless to the human condition. We recently discussed one of the most powerful challenges of the human condition in Duke Bluebeard's Castle.

I can see how you could use words like "relic" and "museums' without negative connotation, but in this thread/or this discussion/issue I think they do have a negative connotation.

I really do think that some people believe they are dead relics that no longer have power over us and no longer have anything to say about the human condition (or the divine, but I don't want to go there).


Again, I ask to consider the use of these words compared to your experience of the music that moves you the most. I'm not asking you to describe that experience here, just if you would use those words in light of that experience.


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## JosefinaHW (Nov 21, 2015)

I don't want to limit the value of any art to how much it speaks about the human condition. My focus on that here is too emphasize the timelessness of great art. Going to a CM concert can "just" be fun.


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## Bonetan (Dec 22, 2016)

I can't offer too much here, because I'm relatively young, but opera is my life now & I wasn't even truly exposed to it until I was 32 years old. I won't speak for how things are in other countries, but I believe that growing up in the US we just aren't exposed to it. Young people need to be shown the way or it will continue to die imo.


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## JosefinaHW (Nov 21, 2015)

Bonetan said:


> I can't offer too much here, because I'm relatively young, but opera is my life now & I wasn't even truly exposed to it until I was 32 years old. I won't speak for how things are in other countries, but I believe that growing up in the US we just aren't exposed to it. Young people need to be shown the way or it will continue to die imo.


Thank you for stopping in here, Bonetan. If you don't mind me asking, how did you come to love opera? What happened when you were 32? Also, did they teach music in your elementary school or secondary school? What was included?

I really don't know what the current music curriculum is in public schools in the US. I know people of my generation were not taught anything about classical music. It would seem like the people of the UK (and Austria) grew up singing and performing together as families. It would seem the same in the Netherlands, but I'm just assuming based on people's long-history with music here on TC.

We also have several parents on this site, it would be interesting to hear what their children learn in school in music classes. (I don't mean private lessons.)


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## JosefinaHW (Nov 21, 2015)

I also know there are several people on here who don't normally read these types of threads. Maybe we could get more info re/ what children or young people are learning in schools if somebody created a thread (or, SHUDDER, a poll) re/ this.


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## haydnguy (Oct 13, 2008)

I think that the current way we "consume" music actually helps classical music.

I'm 63 and when popular music was at it's peak classical music survived. This was in a time where the access to classical music wasn't nearly as available as it currently is. Popular music, however, was accessible to a much bigger audience. Both in record distribution and also live concerts. 

To give you an idea about what it was like back then, when the Beatles appeared on the Ed Sullivan show the number of people who watched that show was equivalent (as a percentage of the population) to the Super Bowl with the second largest viewership. No popular artist today could come anywhere close to that.

Todays access to music allows people that would never have been exposed to it in the past a way to listen to it now through YouTube, etc. So far from fading away it very well might eventually flourish.


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## Red Terror (Dec 10, 2018)

haydnguy said:


> I think that the current way we "consume" music actually helps classical music.
> 
> I'm 63 and when popular music was at it's peak classical music survived. This was in a time where the access to classical music wasn't nearly as available as it currently is. Popular music, however, was accessible to a much bigger audience. Both in record distribution and also live concerts.
> 
> ...


What kind of music are most people consuming on YouTube? Hip-hop / pop.

Our culture has changed drastically and people have no time or patience for music that requires active listening-they like repetition and being able to sing along.


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## JosefinaHW (Nov 21, 2015)

Red Terror said:


> What kind of music are most people consuming on YouTube? Hip-hop / pop.
> 
> Our culture has changed drastically and people have no time or patience for music that requires active listening-they like repetition and being able to sing along.


Warm Greetings RT (and Haydn), The majority of the population may never come to be active listeners of CM, but YouTube also gives people the opportunity to immediately search out ways to learn more about the music they've just listened to in another video. There are really some very engaging, concise, easy-to-understand music theory videos out there. YouTube is fabulous at recommending related videos to what you have just searched for or watched (in one way scary, yes, but also extremely helpful).

I posted a video of one of these music theory series above and there are others that were made to be even more accessible. There are also others at the other end of the spectrum that enable others who don't have access/time/money to university level music theory/composition courses:

The university level thanks to RegenMusic:






The more accessible for newbies with examples from popular music:


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## Zofia (Jan 24, 2019)

Red Terror said:


> What kind of music are most people consuming on YouTube? Hip-hop / pop.
> 
> Our culture has changed drastically and people have no time or patience for music that requires active listening-they like repetition and being able to sing along.


I do agree with you but if only they would look YouTube is a great source for classical music and jazz.

I was listening to a podcast on YT the speaker was asked about the new years resolutions. He advised what ever you do if you do it for one month it is better than doing nothing.

He stopped speaking and then said to learn an instrument he said half an hour a day every day and in one year you will be able to play at least one thing. This will bring you much happiness and satisfaction and it is different from fun.

I thought this was a great message and was going to share it here too many of my friends pursue fun that is fleeting over lasting happiness.

Sorry for my English


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## JosefinaHW (Nov 21, 2015)

Zofia said:


> He stopped speaking and then said to learn an instrument he said half an hour a day every day and in one year you will be able to play at least one thing. This will bring you much happiness and satisfaction and it is different from fun.


Warm Welcome, Zofia. Your English is beautiful. I was just reminded of an article that I had read (I think) in the NYTimes a year or two ago. Intimate lieder recitals in people's homes have seen a great resurgence. Which came first? Public interest or the recitals and recordings of those extraordinary recordings and recitals by active singers: My favorites are Matthias Goerne and Christian Gerhaher.

Also, I don't think the human beings can maintain the current pace of life in our culture for a very long time. They will either burnout physically, ot--hopefullly before that--voluntarily decide to add something that takes them to a healthier pace. I think it is also in our nature to love the tactile sensation of natural products: wood, stone, glass, paper. The resurgence in fountain pens (although one's that perform much better) is an example. As Zofia states learning an instrument, especially one as gorgeous as the cello, would definitely appeal to someone who has had enough of the race, the plastic, the metal, etc.. And, watching a movie such as _Master & Commander_ or a video like the following (26 million Plus viewers) might just be the final thing they need. (Also, technology is still very good, a person can take cello lessons from a teacher across an ocean or two.)


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## Zofia (Jan 24, 2019)

JosefinaHW said:


> Warm Welcome, Zofia. Your English is beautiful. I was just reminded of an article that I had read (I think) in the NYTimes a year or two ago. Intimate lieder recitals in people's homes have seen a great resurgence. Which came first? Public interest or the recitals and recordings of those extraordinary recordings and recitals by active singers: My favorites are Matthias Goerne and Christian Gerhaher.
> 
> Also, I don't think the human beings can maintain the current pace of life in our culture for a very long time. They will either burnout physically, ot--hopefullly before that--voluntarily decide to add something that takes them to a healthier pace. I think it is also in our nature to love the tactile sensation of natural products: wood, stone, glass, paper. The resurgence in fountain pens (although one's that perform much better) is an example. As Zofia states learning an instrument, especially one as gorgeous as the cello, would definitely appeal to someone who has had enough of the race, the plastic, the metal, etc.. And, watching a movie such as _Master & Commander_ or a video like the following (26 million Plus viewers) might just be the final thing they need. (Also, technology is still very good, a person can take cello lessons from a teacher across an ocean or two.)


You are too kind! Agree very much about modern life I like the League of Legends but it can cause me much anxiety.

I was not aware of fountain pens being on the rise that is great. I write to several pen pals as well as family with pen and paper if you have much stress sitting down and writing with a a nice pen is very cathartic (?).

I write to a penpal in Iran she has beautiful hand writing. We practice calligraphy and often include a favourite poem in our letters. Highly recommend Iranan poets pre-islamic tradition is still strong there very beautiful.


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## Zofia (Jan 24, 2019)

دوباره مرد سفر خواهم شد

دوباره مرد سفر خواهم شد

گره کفش ها را خواهم بست

خواهم گذاشت ناخن ها بروید به آوارگی

و موی زنخدانم انبوه شود

چون انبوهی این بامدادها

که در میان من و مرگی زیبا قرار گرفته است.



به مرگ زیبای خویش نزدیک خواهم شد؛

چون زایری غریب،

در میان صورت ها خواهم گردید

چون پرنده ای که روی چندمین درخت جهان غروب می کند

هنگامی که آخرین ستاره

در یک سبد سیب می افتد

آنجا در یک بامداد

English

I Will Become a Traveller Again

I will become a traveller again.
My boots laced up,
I will let my nails go uncut
I will let my chin sprout a bush of hair – 
like the immensity of these mornings
that stand between me and a beautiful death.

As I near my beautiful death
I will wander among faces 
like a homesick pilgrim,
like a bird falling from the nth tree of the world
as the last star sets
in a basket of apples – 
there, early one morning.

Mohammad Bagher Kolahi Ahari (Farsi Poet)


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## Bonetan (Dec 22, 2016)

JosefinaHW said:


> Thank you for stopping in here, Bonetan. If you don't mind me asking, how did you come to love opera? What happened when you were 32? Also, did they teach music in your elementary school or secondary school? What was included?


I was always able to sing anything I heard well & friends were constantly asking me to sing their favorite songs, so at that point I decided to get a teacher to see how good I really was. The intention was to sing pop/r&b because that was what I had been exposed to (I wanted to be the next Luther Vandross). The 1st teacher that heard me said I needed to sing "legit music", played an aria for me from YouTube, I learned it, & the rest is history. Now I have an agent in Germany, singing mostly Wagner & Strauss, & have the backing of some very well know singers. I have no idea where my life would be without opera.

There was no music taught in my elementary or middle school that I can remember. If my mother hadn't put me in piano lessons early on I wouldn't have any musical education whatsoever & wouldn't be able to learn the roles that I have in my repertoire now. I think there was musical theater in my high school, but I was all about sports at that time.


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## Zofia (Jan 24, 2019)

haydnguy said:


> I think that the current way we "consume" music actually helps classical music.
> 
> I'm 63 and when popular music was at it's peak classical music survived. This was in a time where the access to classical music wasn't nearly as available as it currently is. Popular music, however, was accessible to a much bigger audience. Both in record distribution and also live concerts.
> 
> ...


I partly agree we live in a time of music in that we have the musical equivalent of the Library of Alexandria at our fingers. This is unbelievable I am 14 almost 15 and have known nothing else but I imagine elder members have the better appreciation of this change.

That said I think it is possible to consume too much on the surface without proper listening because we have some much to choose. It's like eating quickly to move on and try more food you do not get the full taste and understanding of flavour.


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## JosefinaHW (Nov 21, 2015)

Bonetan said:


> I was always able to sing anything I heard well & friends were constantly asking me to sing their favorite songs, so at that point I decided to get a teacher to see how good I really was. The intention was to sing pop/r&b because that was what I had been exposed to (I wanted to be the next Luther Vandross). The 1st teacher that heard me said I needed to sing "legit music", played an aria for me from YouTube, I learned it, & the rest is history. Now I have an agent in Germany, singing mostly Wagner & Strauss, & have the backing of some very well know singers. I have no idea where my life would be without opera.
> 
> There was no music taught in my elementary or middle school that I can remember. If my mother hadn't put me in piano lessons early on I wouldn't have any musical education whatsoever & wouldn't be able to learn the roles that I have in my repertoire now. I think there was musical theater in my high school, but I was all about sports at that time.


Thank you, Bonetan. :kiss: I also am very thrilled to hear that you have active singers supporting you!


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## Tikoo Tuba (Oct 15, 2018)

JosefinaHW said:


> I also know there are several people on here who don't normally read these types of threads. Maybe we could get more info re/ what children or young people are learning in schools if somebody created a thread (or, SHUDDER, a poll) re/ this.


I would go live in a village that has no school music program . These are becoming more and more , so I would choose a pleasant place with no pollution . It's easy to walk into town as a stranger , play wondrous music as the most natural thing to do , and be invited to stay forever and free . First - think pure music .
This is true to my knowing


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## Zofia (Jan 24, 2019)

Tikoo Tuba said:


> I would go live in a village that has no school music program . These are becoming more and more , so I would choose a pleasant place with no pollution . It's easy to walk into town as a stranger , play wondrous music as the most natural thing to do , and be invited to stay forever and free . First - think pure music .
> This is true to my knowing


I live in the City for school but we go home to the countryside in school vacation. I know your feeling when you go outside at night there you can see not only stars but wonderful clouds it is actually a nebula in space. Even the light is polluting our cities is harmful can't wait to be out there again in the clean air and water.


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## haydnguy (Oct 13, 2008)

When I first started listening to CM I ordered a course from The Great Courses called, 'How to Listen to and Understand Great Music'. I ordered the DVD's back then but I think you can stream it online now. 

That helped me a lot. I still have to go back and watch it occasionally just so that I will remember different things. But it really took an investment of time to get a minimal understanding because I knew so very little. That's probably the greatest hurdle for most people--> time.


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## Larkenfield (Jun 5, 2017)

Zofia said:


> I live in the City for school but we go home to the countryside in school vacation. I know your feeling when you go outside at night there you can see not only stars but wonderful clouds it is actually a nebula in space. Even the light is polluting our cities is harmful can't wait to be out there again in the clean air and water.


In Sedona, AZ, there's a "no city lights policy" so the heavens can be seen in all their majesty and glory, even the Milky Way in great detail, particularly when the moon is dark. It's a stargazer's paradise.

Forty-five minutes away in Flagstaff is the Lowell Observatory which has been home to many discoveries, including the first detection of the expanding nature of the universe, the discovery of Pluto, moon mapping for the Apollo program to the moon, the rings of Uranus, atmosphere of Pluto, and scores of others. Arizona is stargazer's paradise, including for the young and the young at heart.


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## Jacck (Dec 24, 2017)

Larkenfield said:


> In Sedona, AZ, there's a no city lights policy so the heavens can be seen in all their majesty and glory, even the Milky Way in great detail, particularly when the moon is dark. It's a stargazer's paradise. Forty-five minutes away in Flagstaff is the Lowell Observatory.


I grew up a countryside and I am glad I did. I then lived in several big cities (Prag, Vienna), but never really got used to them. I dislike the crows, the chaos, the subways, the neuroticism and rudeness of some of the people. I now live in a countryside some 50km away from a city and go by car everyday on a highway to work. I prefer it to living in the city. My favorite way of listening to classical music is to lie in a garden on a clear starry night and observe the Milky Way and the Perseids while listening to a late Beethoven string quartet.


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## Luchesi (Mar 15, 2013)

Jacck said:


> I grew up a countryside and I am glad I did. I then lived in several big cities (Prag, Vienna), but never really got used to them. I dislike the crows, the chaos, the subways, the neuroticism and rudeness of some of the people. I now live in a countryside some 50km away from a city and go by car everyday on a highway to work. I prefer it to living in the city. My favorite way of listening to classical music is to lie in a garden on a clear starry night and observe the Milky Way and the Perseids while listening to a late Beethoven string quartet.


Orienting myself to the local universe is interesting to me. This time of the year at night we are facing the outer edge of the galaxy, through our local arm and the Perseus Spiral Arm, out to the Outer Arm, toward NGC 2119 (165 Mlys away) and few other visible galaxies due to the midplane and its dust.

In a few months will be facing our Virgo Supercluster which is where most of the real estate in our local universe is contained. If there's any aliens in these parts they'll be in that direction, most likely.

A few months after that, we'll be looking toward the center of our galaxy and the curious jet that comes out of it towards Cassiopeia. A remnant of a violent past.

In the autumn we're looking at our sister galaxy. That's the one that will be colliding with us, but not until after the oceans of hot Earth start evaporating.


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## Tikoo Tuba (Oct 15, 2018)

a string quartets on a little town street corner
a recorder consort , swinging at the playground
and when I play music along a forest path along come mothers
crying and children in a peaceful happy dance

for why is the crying ? I was only tuning the flute I created with fire


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## arpeggio (Oct 4, 2012)

As a reformed ditto head I am getting tired of liberals being accused of being the source of all of the worlds problems. 

I agree that classical music may be dying in the good old USA. I am not sure about the rest of the world. If classical music is dying conservatives are as much to blame as liberals.

Before you religions types start blaming atheist and agnostics for being responsible remember that some of the greatest religious music has been composed by atheist and agnostics: Brahms, Verdi, Vaughn Williams, John Rutter, etc.


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## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

arpeggio said:


> Some of the greatest religious music has been composed by atheist and agnostics: Brahms, Verdi, Vaughn Williams, John Rutter, etc.


As a big fan of sacred music, I'd have to agree with you. Especially Brahms; he knew how to get to the heart of sacred music.


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## larold (Jul 20, 2017)

_some of the greatest religious music has been composed by atheist and agnostics: Brahms, Verdi, Vaughn Williams, John Rutter..._

Rutter has described himself as "agnostic supporter of the Christian faith" and Brahms wrote no religious music. Try and find a reference to God in his scores.


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## arpeggio (Oct 4, 2012)

larold said:


> _some of the greatest religious music has been composed by atheist and agnostics: Brahms, Verdi, Vaughn Williams, John Rutter..._
> 
> Rutter has described himself as "agnostic supporter of the Christian faith" and Brahms wrote no religious music. Try and find a reference to God in his scores.


Wow. I have performed the Brahms _German Requiem_ twice. Both times it was in a church. The next time I will have to inform the organizers that it is not a religious work. The times I have performed it the conductor and the chorus thought it was. That is why I like talk classical. You learn something new everyday.


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## Larkenfield (Jun 5, 2017)

The fact that Brahms didn't mention the Lord Jesus Christ in his German Requiem does not make him an agnostic as one of his biographers Swafford suggests. It was more likely that the Bible reading Brahms was unorthodox in his views on Christianity, but that hardly makes him an unbeliever. For Brahms to use the text that he does would render him a total hypocrite unless he had some feeling and sincerity for the words, especially after the death of his mother and Robert Schumann. One would just not do something as false with so many obvious references to the Bible. But he did feel conflicted about mentioning the name of Jesus Christ though there are many references to the Lord. This is hardly the text of an agnostic without something deep in the way of a religious view or philosophy, at least at this sorrowful time in his life:

http://m.classical-music.com/article/brahmss-german-requiem-text

"The righteous souls are in God's hand
and no torment shall stir them." -Brahms text

https://nonnobis.weebly.com/blog/johannes-brahms-believer-or-agnostic

Brahms recognized a transcendent source for his musical inspiration. Commenting in an interview on his thoughts regarding musical inspiration, he stated, "Straightaway the ideas flow in upon me, directly from God, and not only do I see the distinct themes in my mind's eye, but they are clothed in the right forms, harmonies and orchestration. I have to be in a semi-trance condition to get such results-a condition when the conscious mind is in temporary abeyance and the subconscious is in control, for it is through the subconscious mind, which is part of Omnipotence, that inspiration comes."

Evidently, Swafford didn't believe him or conveniently discounted his words, which most likely says more about the biographer's lack of insight than the composer's actual views.


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## Gallus (Feb 8, 2018)

Larkenfield said:


> For Brahms to use the text that he does would render him a total hypocrite unless he had some feeling and sincerity for the words


Er, what? Why does one have to be a believing Christian to have "feeling and sincerity" for words in the Bible? Like Brahms, myself and millions of other people have enjoyed the stories in it as literature and philosophy without any theological attachment. That doesn't make us hypocrites, which is frankly insulting, any more than Monteverdi or Gluck were hypocrites for not believing in the Olympian gods when they set music to the myth of Orpheus and Eurydice.


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## regenmusic (Oct 23, 2014)

arpeggio said:


> As a reformed ditto head I am getting tired of liberals being accused of being the source of all of the worlds problems.
> 
> I agree that classical music may be dying in the good old USA. I am not sure about the rest of the world. If classical music is dying conservatives are as much to blame as liberals.
> 
> Before you religions types start blaming atheist and agnostics for being responsible remember that some of the greatest religious music has been composed by atheist and agnostics: Brahms, Verdi, Vaughn Williams, John Rutter, etc.


Brahms and Vaughn Williams were not atheists. Brahms and Vaughn Williams have whole chapters in "Spiritual Lives of the Great Composers." A criticism of a church or doubt about God's will doesn't mean atheism.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

regenmusic said:


> Brahms and Vaughn Williams were not atheists. Brahms and Vaughn Williams have whole chapters in "Spiritual Lives of the Great Composers." A criticism of a church or doubt about God's will doesn't mean atheism.


Writing in 1910, Dvorak's son-in-law Josef Suk tells of a conversation between himself, his parents-in-law and Brahms in Vienna in 1896:

'Then faith and religion were discussed. Dvorak, as everybody knows, was full of sincere, practically childlike faith, whereas Brahms's views were entirely the opposite. "I have read too much Schopenhauer, and things appear differently to me," he said … Dvorak was very reserved on the way back to the hotel. Finally, after a very long time he said: "Such a man, such a soul - and he believes in nothing, he believes in nothing!" '


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## Tikoo Tuba (Oct 15, 2018)

Perhaps yooz all are off-topic or what of youthful spirit is relevant ? Say it .


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## Larkenfield (Jun 5, 2017)

Perhaps the thin lines marking agnosticism and atheism are not always clear at different times in a composer’s life, and Brahms was known to shock people with his outspoken comments in the moment, including his tactless remarks to friends that he often apologized to for offending. It’s also possible that Brahms wanted to keep his views private and not be subject to interference and speculation later in life on such a controversial subject, including the text that he wrote for his German Requiem in memory of his mother and Robert Schumann. But it’s certainly possible that something disillusioned him later in life, or he developed grave doubts. This is about the time when the works of Friedrich Nietzsche were gaining popularity and he was the one who proposed that “God is dead.” In the meantime, Swafford‘s conclusions were based upon his beliefs about Brahms’ Requiem and there’s no evidence that Brahms did not actually feel the way he did. When asked about the meaning of his Requiem and how he felt about it, it sounded like he really didn’t want to give an answer. There’s more to the story behind the writing of his Requiem than meets the eyes and sometimes it may be necessary to read between the lines. Most likely Brahms was indifferent organized religion.


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## Tikoo Tuba (Oct 15, 2018)

It's also possible ... whatever .


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## haydnguy (Oct 13, 2008)

At the risk of repeating myself. I don't think that the youth are causing classical music to decline. At least not in the sense that you probably mean. Part of it might be that a new generation of corporate heads do not see the need to donate to classical music (orchestras).


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## Tikoo Tuba (Oct 15, 2018)

Youth are not causing any decline in anything .


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## arpeggio (Oct 4, 2012)

regenmusic said:


> Brahms and Vaughn Williams were not atheists. Brahms and Vaughn Williams have whole chapters in "Spiritual Lives of the Great Composers." A criticism of a church or doubt about God's will doesn't mean atheism.


Please read my statements carefully before you criticize them. I said atheist and agnostics. Really. Do I need to specify which of the composers were agnostic and which were atheist. I will say just this, I know Vaughn Williams was an agnostic as opposed to an atheist. As an agnostic Christian I know the difference. Beyond this I have nothing to add since the moderators do no want us wandering in religious discussions in this thread. I apologize for any gaffs I have committed and not being clearer.

The bottom line is that it appears to me that lack of faith his not the cause of the decline of classical music in the USA.


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## Zofia (Jan 24, 2019)

arpeggio said:


> Please read my statements carefully before you criticize them. I said atheist and agnostics. Really. Do I need to specify which of the composers were agnostic and which were atheist. I will say just this, I know Vaughn Williams was an agnostic as opposed to an atheist. As an agnostic Christian I know the difference. Beyond this I have nothing to add since the moderators do no want us wandering in religious discussions in this thread. I apologize for any gaffs I have committed and not being clearer.
> 
> The bottom line is that it appears to me that lack of faith his not the cause of the decline of classical music in the USA.


Personal opinion I think lack of true Christian faith does impact Classical music; As part of a greater shame in our European culture and heritage. A lot seem to think that Western Christian based culture is no better or even it is worse than other cultures truly astonishing. If you celebrate our culture you are showing you are pro white supremacy for example. I experience this in my trip to America last year, they have know not the truth only opinion about Wagner etc.

This is not my generations fault but previous generations, saying so if we do not stop the decline we will own the blame and pass it on to our next generations as others did before.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

BabyGiraffe said:


> Most people don't really understand or appreciate classical music. I guess opera could have been way more popular, if there was less overdramatic vibrato.
> Many of the late Renaissance and Galant compositions are based on popular dance forms and rhythms; too bad that so many contemporary composers are stuck in the atonal hole and don't really want to compose likeable music (maybe incorporating currently fashionable rhythms, instrumentation) with proper complexity, of course.





fliege said:


> I think I disagree. This attitude just turns people away: I know it turned me away for years because I believed it to be true.
> 
> There was a thread recently where a newcomer without musical background was worried about missing a lot in the music and not understanding. The bottom line is they were told not to worry about theory and just listen (I feel like I'm missing a lot!). That's good advice and true advice and it follows from it, IMO, that if you like what you're listening to and it moves you then you understand enough. i.e. if you appreciate you have a big chunk of understanding already.
> 
> ...


Just to comment on this conversation, I agree that the snob image of classical isn't helpful but like any stereotype there is some reality to it. There are also different types of snobs, and some aren't knowledgeable or that interested in music. I remember going to a concert where I was invited by an acquaintance and met some people who where just interested in appearing there and nothing much else. The conversation during interval was about real estate, holidays, cars and so on. At the end of the day though anyone is valued at a concert because they pay for the ticket and get their bum on a seat. This has occurred throughout history, right now I am reading Matisse's memoirs and in reminiscing about the Ballet Russes years, he reflects on the diversity of audiences which included snobs (some of them commissioned new works!).

Snobbery can be a bit of a downer online, but I have often seen it used as a desperate attempt to win an argument. More often than not it turns what can initially appear to be an innocuous discussion into an intense stand off. Perhaps displaying snob attitudes can be understood by looking at it as a sign of someone grieving because the music they value isn't valued by others. In any case, its best to take a lesson from Hyacinth Bucket (British members would most likely know the name!) who opined that being a snob is okay, but showing it is vulgar: "If there's one thing I can't stand, it's snobbery and one-upmanship. People trying to pretend they're superior."


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

I have just seen a programme on Bernstein which commented that the rise of the pop culture for youth coincided with the time of the avant-garde movement in classical music when music became so discordant so as to become unrecognisable. I remember the conductor Hans Vonk commenting that never before in history had classical music composers so lost touch with their audience. Bernstein was one of those who took a stand against some of the dreadful discordant music that was getting written and was vilified for it . But of course he was right in that composers have now gone back to music that is more listenable to . I never know why people don't get it that music is supposed to be listenied to to be enjoyed not endured. To me it is no wonder the classical music has lost its audience when stuff being written is so unlistenable.


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## Larkenfield (Jun 5, 2017)

Zofia said:


> ... This is not my generations fault but previous generations, saying so if we do not stop the decline we will own the blame and pass it on to our next generations as others did before.


What a mess previous generations have laid at the feet of the young. I came from a generation with the big names of Toscanini and Bernstein routinely appearing on tv dazzling and educating the young and where many started out as cultural revolutionaries celebrating the arts. It didn't seem to do any good. It was under their watch when the arts, particularly music, was no longer routinely funded and taught in public schools. That's too bad because public education led me into a professional career as a musician with a life-long love for the music, or I wouldn't be here now... They started out with a bang and ended with a whimper. Not exactly a better world passed on to the young, but I suppose they tried as much as they could until they ran out of gas or rebellion.


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## JosefinaHW (Nov 21, 2015)

Larkenfield said:


> I came from a generation with the big names of Toscanini and Bernstein routinely appearing on tv dazzling and educating the young and where many started out as cultural revolutionaries celebrating the arts. It didn't seem to do any good. It was under their watch when the arts, particularly music, was no longer routinely funded and taught in public schools. *That's too bad because public education led me into a professional career as a musician with a life-long love for the music, or I wouldn't be here now.*..


Larkenfield, would you please tells us a bit about what your music curricula included grade by grade and give some examples of those lessons/topics that inspired you?


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## Luchesi (Mar 15, 2013)

Larkenfield said:


> Perhaps the thin lines marking agnosticism and atheism are not always clear at different times in a composer's life, and Brahms was known to shock people with his outspoken comments in the moment, including his tactless remarks to friends that he often apologized to for offending. It's also possible that Brahms wanted to keep his views private and not be subject to interference and speculation later in life on such a controversial subject, including the text that he wrote for his German Requiem in memory of his mother and Robert Schumann. But it's certainly possible that something disillusioned him later in life, or he developed grave doubts. This is about the time when the works of Friedrich Nietzsche were gaining popularity and he was the one who proposed that "God is dead." In the meantime, Swafford's conclusions were based upon his beliefs about Brahms' Requiem and there's no evidence that Brahms did not actually feel the way he did. When asked about the meaning of his Requiem and how he felt about it, it sounded like he really didn't want to give an answer. There's more to the story behind the writing of his Requiem than meets the eyes and sometimes it may be necessary to read between the lines. Most likely Brahms was indifferent organized religion.


If every composer of the past was Buddhist or a strident atheist, what would be different in the canon of great works?

The Western idea is of a fatherly image creating everything for humans with love and purpose, mysterious and inscrutable. He sees your faults and sees into your conscious allegiances and your subconcious. Glory, majesty and judgement and fate. How do you explore and communicate that in music? Think JsB, Haydn/Mozart and LvB striding the balancing bar. They drag us along in their visions of diatonic dualism, good and evil, pride and supplication, dominant/subdominant with all the constrained ambiguity that's allowed.

What would anti-theistic music sound like? Trash Metal? Minimalism? Atonality rebelling against the sweet sounding prayerfulness of what came before?


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## Zofia (Jan 24, 2019)

Larkenfield said:


> What a mess previous generations have laid at the feet of the young. I came from a generation with the big names of Toscanini and Bernstein routinely appearing on tv dazzling and educating the young and where many started out as cultural revolutionaries celebrating the arts. It didn't seem to do any good. It was under their watch when the arts, particularly music, was no longer routinely funded and taught in public schools. That's too bad because public education led me into a professional career as a musician with a life-long love for the music, or I wouldn't be here now... They started out with a bang and ended with a whimper. Not exactly a better world passed on to the young, but I suppose they tried as much as they could until they ran out of gas or rebellion.


60s and 70s music was part funded by the CIA, not crazy but true you can wiki it. Heard so on podcast and you can Google it. Deliberate attempt to remove the European culture from Europe and America is my opinion. Will not say more I would fear the banned hammer.


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## regenmusic (Oct 23, 2014)

Zofia said:


> 60s and 70s music was part funded by the CIA, not crazy but true you can wiki it. Heard so on podcast and you can Google it. Deliberate attempt to remove the European culture from Europe and America is my opinion. Will not say more I would fear the banned hammer.


Conspiracy theory like that is also like hearsay, which is like gossip. Someone once heard a certain composer say that he believed such and such. Early biographers often have a lot of wrong information, which later biographers weed out.

Since this topic of conspiracy theory is germane to the subject we are discussing, let me quote something from 
Grandiosity and the Empowerment of the Spiritual and Artistic. (I have permission from the author since I wrote it).

10. Conspiracy Theory and the Mistrust of Prosperity

Conspiracy theorists have a type of grandiosity in ongoing operation. Among conspiracy theorists, there is a belief that one has the ability to really see into the nature of things, to pull out obscure facts that most people recognize as being totally improbable. I'm not denying that there are powerful and negative forces that act against the greater good, but these are usually not hidden or mysterious.

There is a tremendous energy that believing strange conspiracies about the powerful gives one. People are not born conspiracy theorists but they can get the habit from other conspiracy theorists. Believing conspiracy theories with others is a type of bonding ritual. Some locations seem more prone to create people who are conspiracy theorists. I noticed how several people in Long Island, New York were certain that the "Y2K bug," the computer programming situation that occurred when the year 2000 hit, was certain to bring down civilization as we knew it. They seemed to have a need for making life exciting in this way. Perhaps, being born into upper middle class surroundings, or just the nature of living life in an international cosmopolitan center such as New York, they were expecting life or society at large to "entertain" them in this fashion by crumbling before their eyes. I remember how, about 20 years before, many of them were talking about the end of the world by a flood and similar types of cataclysms.

Conspiracy theorists may often do more harm than they realize. They demonize the rich and powerful in fanciful ways instead of trying to build a bridge between the rich and the rest of the world in the way a labor union builds a bridge between the owners and workers.

A "conspiracy theorist" archetype could be looked at as a type of repeating pattern in human beings in the same way as the King, Warrior, Magician, and Lover archetypes are in the collective unconscious. The conspiracy theorist archetype could be seen as an overwhelming zeitgeist that embodies much of the person's personality and outlook. The negative effect of conspiracy thinking is that it disallows positive social and economic activism and changes in people because they may unconsciously believe that they will get killed by the (most likely imaginary) conspiracy if they protest in rational ways. They may also unconsciously realize that the conspiracy they believe in actually has no way of existing and that it merely functions as a social bonding mechanism or have some other valuable function for them.


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## Luchesi (Mar 15, 2013)

JosefinaHW said:


> Larkenfield, would you please tells us a bit about what your music curricula included grade by grade and give some examples of those lessons/topics that inspired you?


I can remember a teacher at the blackboard showing us notes on a C scale and assuming that we could eventually read enough notes to be able to sightread simple songs. Then folk songs, then rock songs, then Mozart's teaching sonatas. It was quite optimistic and it was left for us over the summer. The arithmetic of it interested me. A friend of mine who was in a rock band at the time was studying guitar chords in a routinely scheduled study hall and he taught me very quickly how to build chords.

From the same music teacher, along with reading notes, we were exposed to music appreciation, listening to and identifying famous masterpieces. What I got from that was the fascinating idea that a few humans during those centuries were so much better at composing than other composers of those decades. How was this determined? How much would you have to learn about music to be able to determine these rankings without merely resorting to your own opinion?


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## Larkenfield (Jun 5, 2017)

Luchesi said:


> If every composer of the past was Buddhist or a strident atheist, what would be different in the canon of great works?
> 
> The Western idea is of a fatherly image creating everything for humans with love and purpose, mysterious and inscrutable. He sees your faults and sees into your conscious allegiances and your subconscious. Glory, majesty and judgment and fate. How do you explore and communicate that in music? Think JsB, Haydn/Mozart and LvB striding the balancing bar. They drag us along in their visions of diatonic dualism, good and evil, pride and supplication, dominant/subdominant with all the constrained ambiguity that's allowed.
> 
> What would anti-theistic music sound like? Trash Metal? Minimalism? Atonality rebelling against the sweet sounding prayerfulness of what came before?


There's no answer to your first paragraph unless it actually happens. But I think a composer 's religion or philosophy can very much affect their music. With regard to Mahler, he read Christian texts, studied Theosophy which was big at the time, and like Wagner was exposed to Buddhism. Can I hear that influence their work? I believe so in the underlying serenity and stillness of their music. It's very Zen-like which is very much related to the quieting of the mind. They don't necessarily view the mind as the source of their ideas, that there's something bigger or deeper than their mind animating the music, and when they're absorbed in that vast silent realm the music flows, and I think Mahler's 10th Symphony, in fact all the symphonies, have something of that quality. I don't think any great composer thinks that he's thinking up everything himself, that he is entirely sufficient unto himself but is connected to something more natural and profound than he is. One doesn't have to be a religious fanatic or believer to do this or have a philosophy. But somehow they find that realm of inner stillness and it's the source of their genius and was perhaps inspired by what they believed about existence or God.
--
Johannes Brahms - "To realize that we are one with the Creator, as Beethoven did, is a wonderful and awe-inspiring experience. Very few human beings ever come into that realization and that is why there are so few great composers or creative geniuses in any line of human endeavor. I always contemplate all this before commencing to compose. This is the first step. When I feel the urge I begin by appealing directly to my Maker and I first ask Him the three most important questions pertaining to our life here in this world-whence, wherefore, whither? I immediately feel vibrations that thrill my whole being. These are the spirit illuminating the soul-power within, and in this exalted state, I see clearly what is obscure in my ordinary moods; then I feel capable of drawing inspiration from above, as Beethoven did. Above all, I realize at such moments the tremendous significance of Jesus' supreme revelation, 'I and my Father are One'. Those vibrations assume the forms of distinct mental images, after I have formulated my desire and resolve in regard to what I want-namely, to be inspired so that I can compose something that will uplift and benefit humanity-something of permanent value. Straightaway the ideas flow in upon me, directly from God, and not only do I see distinct themes in my mind's eye, but they are clothed in the right forms, harmonies and orchestration. Measure by measure, the finished product is revealed to me when I am in those rare, inspired moods, as they were to Tartini when he composed his greatest work-the Devil's Trill Sonata. I have to be in a semi-trance condition to get such results-a condition when the conscious mind is in temporary abeyance and the subconscious is in control, for it is through the subconscious mind, which is a part of Omnipotence, that the inspiration comes. I have to be careful, however, not to lose consciousness, otherwise, the ideas fade away."


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## Luchesi (Mar 15, 2013)

regenmusic said:


> Conspiracy theory like that is also like hearsay, which is like gossip. Someone once heard a certain composer say that he believed such and such. Early biographers often have a lot of wrong information, which later biographers weed out.


To make money YouTube will give anybody a free video channel so that they can upload their videos to be broadcast all around the world. They can censor any comments they don't like and they're somewhat protected by an anonymity. It should remind us of the snake oil salesmen of the past.


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## Tikoo Tuba (Oct 15, 2018)

The animated movie Fantasia was impressively popular with kids , kind to their music-mind . The narrated Peter And The Wolf was ok also . What's next ?


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## Luchesi (Mar 15, 2013)

Larkenfield said:


> There's no answer to your first paragraph unless it actually happens.


Yes, it's easy to see how composers are inspired by inspiring beliefs.

Elton John's song - Answer In The Sky

"Well they say that it's a fact
If you watch the sky at night
And if you stare into the darkness
You might see celestial light
And if your heart is empty
And there's no hope in sight
There's a chance you'll find an answer in the sky."


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## regenmusic (Oct 23, 2014)

Larkenfield said:


> There's no answer to your first paragraph unless it actually happens. But I think a composer 's religion or philosophy can very much affect their music. With regard to Mahler, he read Christian texts, studied Theosophy which was big at the time, and like Wagner was exposed to Buddhism. Can I hear that influence their work? I believe so in the underlying serenity and stillness of their music. It's very Zen-like which is very much related to the quieting of the mind. They don't necessarily view the mind as the source of their ideas, that there's something bigger or deeper than their mind animating the music, and when they're absorbed in that vast silent realm the music flows, and I think Mahler's 10th Symphony, in fact all the symphonies, have something of that quality. I don't think any great composer thinks that he's thinking up everything himself, that he is entirely sufficient unto himself, but is connected to something more natural and profound than he is. One doesn't have to be a religious fanatic or believer to do this or have a philosophy. But somehow they find that realm of inner stillness and it's the source of their genius and was perhaps inspired by what they believe about existence or God.
> --
> Johannes Brahms - "To realize that we are one with the Creator, as Beethoven did, is a wonderful and awe-inspiring experience. Very few human beings ever come into that realization and that is why there are so few great composers or creative geniuses in any line of human endeavor. I always contemplate all this before commencing to compose. This is the first step. When I feel the urge I begin by appealing directly to my Maker and I first ask Him the three most important questions pertaining to our life here in this world-whence, wherefore, whither? I immediately feel vibrations that thrill my whole being. These are the spirit illuminating the soul-power within, and in this exalted state, I see clearly what is obscure in my ordinary moods; then I feel capable of drawing inspiration from above, as Beethoven did. Above all, I realize at such moments the tremendous significance of Jesus' supreme revelation, 'I and my Father are One'. Those vibrations assume the forms of distinct mental images, after I have formulated my desire and resolve in regard to what I want-namely, to be inspired so that I can compose something that will uplift and benefit humanity-something of permanent value. Straightaway the ideas flow in upon me, directly from God, and not only do I see distinct themes in my mind's eye, but they are clothed in the right forms, harmonies and orchestration. Measure by measure, the finished product is revealed to me when I am in those rare, inspired moods, as they were to Tartini when he composed his greatest work-the Devil's Trill Sonata. I have to be in a semi-trance condition to get such results-a condition when the conscious mind is in temporary abeyance and the subconscious is in control, for it is through the subconscious mind, which is a part of Omnipotence, that the inspiration comes. I have to be careful, however, not to lose consciousness, otherwise, the ideas fade away."


That's exactly what the Surrealist's said regarding one of their methods of creation, after 1924. I guess Brahms was a type of Proto-Surrealist.


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## tdc (Jan 17, 2011)

Larkenfield said:


> --
> Johannes Brahms - "To realize that we are one with the Creator, as Beethoven did, is a wonderful and awe-inspiring experience. Very few human beings ever come into that realization and that is why there are so few great composers or creative geniuses in any line of human endeavor. I always contemplate all this before commencing to compose. This is the first step. When I feel the urge I begin by appealing directly to my Maker and I first ask Him the three most important questions pertaining to our life here in this world-whence, wherefore, whither? I immediately feel vibrations that thrill my whole being. These are the spirit illuminating the soul-power within, and in this exalted state, I see clearly what is obscure in my ordinary moods; then I feel capable of drawing inspiration from above, as Beethoven did. Above all, I realize at such moments the tremendous significance of Jesus' supreme revelation, 'I and my Father are One'. Those vibrations assume the forms of distinct mental images, after I have formulated my desire and resolve in regard to what I want-namely, to be inspired so that I can compose something that will uplift and benefit humanity-something of permanent value. Straightaway the ideas flow in upon me, directly from God, and not only do I see distinct themes in my mind's eye, but they are clothed in the right forms, harmonies and orchestration. Measure by measure, the finished product is revealed to me when I am in those rare, inspired moods, as they were to Tartini when he composed his greatest work-the Devil's Trill Sonata. I have to be in a semi-trance condition to get such results-a condition when the conscious mind is in temporary abeyance and the subconscious is in control, for it is through the subconscious mind, which is a part of Omnipotence, that the inspiration comes. I have to be careful, however, not to lose consciousness, otherwise, the ideas fade away."


Thanks for posting this quote, where did you find this? I wonder why this was left out of the Swafford bio? I'm wondering now if that book perhaps used selective information in an attempt to portray the man a certain way.


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## Larkenfield (Jun 5, 2017)

tdc said:


> Thanks for posting this quote, where did you find this? I wonder why this was left out of the Swafford bio? I'm wondering now if that book perhaps used selective information in an attempt to portray the man a certain way.


Here you go: https://www.amazon.com/Arthur-M-Abell-Talks-Composers/dp/B008UYYYW8?SubscriptionId=AKIAISKVZKMUZXHREHJA&tag=friendsofsile-20&linkCode=xm2&camp=2025&creative=165953&creativeASIN=B008UYYYW8

I believe it's possible that you might find the text of his book online, but I haven't looked for it.

Do I think that long paragraph on how Brahms composes is a word for word quote from Brahms, worded exactly like he worded it? Probably not, because I think it was customary at the time for interviewers and biographers to reword the answers from others to make them sound more literary or concise. Modern biographers don't like that and what they will often do is completely ignore or discount comments such as this because it's not an exact quote like from a tape recorder and considered made up, false or inaccurate. So they conclude that none of it was accurate or true and not include such a quote in a contemporary biography. And if the biographer is not inclined towards certain religions or philosophies, they will view a composer through their own lens and not the lens of the composer. In any event, I suspect that Brahms' religious views were not conventional and he had an unorthodox view toward it, but his views appear far more subtle and nuanced than I believe he's now given credit for in an age of skepticism.



> Brahms Requiem did not use the traditional Latin text, but rather compiled a German text. He used Luther's translation of the Bible and combined parts of the Old Testament, the New Testament and the Biblical Apocrypha. Brahms had a broad knowledge of the Bible and often put together passages from different sections of the Bible in one single movement. The title "A German Requiem" meant for Brahms only that the text of the requiem is in German. He probably chose it to distinguish his work from well-known traditional requiems. [unquote]


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## tdc (Jan 17, 2011)

Zofia said:


> Personal opinion I think lack of true Christian faith does impact Classical music; As part of a greater shame in our European culture and heritage. A lot seem to think that Western Christian based culture is no better or even it is worse than other cultures truly astonishing.


I think lack of faith _does_ impact classical music, in a negative way but at the same time I can see why Christianity has left a bad taste in many people's mouths. I think the essence of Christianity is a beautiful soul changing thing, and people that tune into that essence with a pure heart can get real results in their life. Sadly, the Bible has been tainted with a lot of misinformation by tyrants and despots and used to justify horrendous amounts of killing, wars, witch hunts etc.

To some degree I think all religions have been corrupted in similar ways.

I think in todays age we should be looking at preserving the good elements of religion and expunging the poison and misinformation that has been used in order to manipulate and control people.


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## Red Terror (Dec 10, 2018)

tdc said:


> I think lack of faith _does_ impact classical music, in a negative way but at the same time I can see why Christianity has left a bad taste in many people's mouths. I think the essence of Christianity is a beautiful soul changing thing, and people that tune into that essence with a pure heart can get real results in their life. Sadly, the Bible has been tainted with a lot of misinformation by tyrants and despots and used to justify horrendous amounts of killing, wars, witch hunts etc.
> 
> To some degree I think all religions have been corrupted in similar ways.
> 
> I think in todays age we should be looking at preserving the good elements of religion and expunging the poison and misinformation that has been used in order to manipulate and control people.


The scriptures remain unchanged but people have misinterpreted them and/or knowingly misused them for personal gain. We can't expunge the poison because WE are the poison.


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## Luchesi (Mar 15, 2013)

tdc said:


> Thanks for posting this quote, where did you find this? I wonder why this was left out of the Swafford bio? I'm wondering now if that book perhaps used selective information in an attempt to portray the man a certain way.


Swafford, the composer and Brahms biographer says it was put together from Abell's own beliefs

> [email protected] (Jan Swafford) writes:
> : A few months ago, I happily plunged into Arthur Abell's "Talks With
> : the Great Composer's." Initially, the book seemed like a gold mine of
> : fascinating information about such composers as Brahms and Richard
> : Strauss. Abell claims to have recorded-- verbatim-- all these composers
> : had to say about their spiritual lives (a topic which Brahms rarely
> : discussed), the creative process, etc. In it an an account of a
> : conversation between Joseph Joachim and Darwin! Even Joachim and 
> : Tennyson! 
> 
> : Later on, though, I stumbled upon a Brahms biography which mentioned the
> : book in a brief footnote. The author doubts the veracity of Abell's
> : conversations-- especially since the composers' spiritual beliefs jive so
> : much with his own. 
> 
> I'm writing a book on Brahms so was also duly excited a few years ago 
> when I first ran across the Abell. But one quickly gets suspicious, for 
> all kinds of reasons. The common wisdom is that it's a fraud. 
> 
> Still, somebody ought to do some sleuthing about the whole thing. Abell 
> did know Brahms and Joachim and the other composers apparently, and did 
> write a shorter, vaguer account of a Brahms interview back in the 
> 30s--without the spiritualistic stuff. The best guess is that he cooked 
> up his later "interview" from a few things Brahms told him, more things 
> Joachim told him, and added some plugs for his own beliefs.
> 
> Anybody out there have some solid info?
> 
> Jan Swafford
>


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Also, I want to point out that people typically believe and disbelieve different things throughout their lives. It may not be meaningful to say simply that "Brahms believed such-and-such."


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## Larkenfield (Jun 5, 2017)

An individual’s religious or philosophical views can be highly individual but yet they may still be seeking something in the way of inspiration or understanding. Perhaps a good example is the Jefferson Bible that he used as a source of wisdom:

‘Jefferson's condensed composition is especially notable for its exclusion of all miracles by Jesus and most mentions of the supernatural, including sections of the four gospels that contain the Resurrection and most other miracles, and passages that portray Jesus as divine.”’

Nevertheless, Jefferson found great wisdom in the biblical teachings for his own personal use. (And he would need it.) I think it’s hard to understand anyone unless one looks at his or her life from their point of view and not one’s own.

I believe it’s also possible to hear any piece of music from the composer’s point of view and not just one’s own, and it can be very illuminating to help understand a composer and his or her works. But that kind of a listening skill is rarely taught where it’s possible to imagine wearing a composer’s hat or head, so to speak, by knowing something about their personality and life. There’s a way to get one’s ego and judgments out of the way in order to fully experience it. Unfortunately, it’s rarely ever mentioned or encouraged because it may sound impossible or too unconventional on the surface... Well, the brain is sometimes capable of experiencing miraculous things.


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## Zofia (Jan 24, 2019)

tdc said:


> I think lack of faith _does_ impact classical music, in a negative way but at the same time I can see why Christianity has left a bad taste in many people's mouths. I think the essence of Christianity is a beautiful soul changing thing, and people that tune into that essence with a pure heart can get real results in their life. Sadly, the Bible has been tainted with a lot of misinformation by tyrants and despots and used to justify horrendous amounts of killing, wars, witch hunts etc.
> 
> To some degree I think all religions have been corrupted in similar ways.
> 
> I think in todays age we should be looking at preserving the good elements of religion and expunging the poison and misinformation that has been used in order to manipulate and control people.


Christianity is different from the churches. Christianity is not of man, the churches are of man and can corrupt sadly. I go to three different churches the priest don't care much. They are all much differences and many things they do I read in my bible you should not. Church was adulterated (make sense?) by the culture of the land there.

Still agree Christianity made Europe what it was. The best music is made to praise God that is why modern classical (I like it) is a birth defect of older music without God it become ugly.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

KenOC said:


> Also, I want to point out that people typically believe and disbelieve different things throughout their lives. It may not be meaningful to say simply that "Brahms believed such-and-such."


More than that, "beliefs" consist of words, and words are notoriously slippery. It's hard enough to be clear about what we ourselves think and know, much less what anyone else does. The closer we look at some of mankind's fondest convictions, the shakier and foggier they become.

Every individual has his own religion, regardless of what name it goes by, and a composer's beliefs are as much a function of his own gut and brain as is his music. There is simply no way to know how any composer's music would have changed had his beliefs changed; in the case of Wagner, for example, he claimed late in life to be a Christian, but it would be absurd to look at his work as a function of some religious belief or other since, first, his ideas about a supernatural God (nonexistent) and Jesus the redeemer (fully human) were not ones that most present-day self-described Christians would endorse, and, second, his most overtly "Christian" work, _Parsifal,_ was conceived at a much earlier time in his life when his philosophical outlook was frankly hostile to the whole Judeo-Christian tradition.

Christianity is obviously inseparable from Western culture and the forms its music took, but any attempt to draw close connections between a composer's music and his beliefs assumes too much and ends up being an expression of our own prejudices.


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## Larkenfield (Jun 5, 2017)

Luchesi said:


> Swafford, the composer and Brahms biographer says it was put together from Abell's own beliefs
> 
> > [email protected] (Jan Swafford) writes:
> > : A few months ago, I happily plunged into Arthur Abell's "Talks With
> ...


Well, that's interesting and pretty much what I suspected his view might be since I'd never read it before. "Spiritualistic stuff"? Maybe he's right, but it could also suggest Swafford's skepticism to the entire subject. There has to be something that fits in with Brahms writing his Requiem based on a biblical text that everyone knows that he put together himself. No one seems to have an answer to that, including Swafford. How could a clear understanding of this area of Brahm's life be any more central to understanding the whole of it? I think the first thing in understanding any biography is to identify the likely prejudices and biases of the writer. The use of the words "Spiritualistic stuff" suggests, IMO, that Swafford has no clue or respect for what that might possibly be.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

Luchesi said:


> Yes, it's easy to see how composers are inspired by inspiring beliefs.
> 
> Elton John's song - Answer In The Sky
> 
> ...


Wow, that is totally uninspiring to me. Kind of like that "When you Wish Upon a Star" song.


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## Luchesi (Mar 15, 2013)

Larkenfield said:


> Well, that's interesting and pretty much what I suspected his view might be since I'd never read it before. "Spiritualistic stuff"? Maybe he's right, but it could also suggest Swafford's skepticism to the entire subject. There has to be something that fits in with Brahms writing his Requiem based on a biblical text that everyone knows that he put together himself. No one seems to have an answer to that, including Swafford. How could a clear understanding of this area of Brahm's life be any more central to understanding the whole of it? I think the first thing in understanding any biography is to identify the likely prejudices and biases of the writer. The use of the words "Spiritualistic stuff" suggests, IMO, that Swafford has no clue or respect for what that might possibly be.


"The use of the words "Spiritualistic stuff" suggests, IMO, that Swafford has no clue or respect for what that might possibly be."

You mean in music? Tell us what it is.


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## Luchesi (Mar 15, 2013)

Fritz Kobus said:


> Wow, that is totally uninspiring to me. Kind of like that "When you Wish Upon a Star" song.


I don't remember who said it... Most people become biased against reality when they become a spirit-filled Christian.


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## Zofia (Jan 24, 2019)

Luchesi said:


> I don't remember who said it... Most people become biased against reality when they become a spirit-filled Christian.


I think this is true of anyone who is an ideologue...

edit

Example: That was not real communism/socialism *looks at ussr*


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## sethmadsen (Jan 29, 2019)

For me, I think it's a lack of connection. The same could be said about literature. If it's not a tweet, it won't be read. 

I think all of this could change if education wasn't a means to an end - meaning we learned for the sake of learning instead of it gets you a paycheck. It gets you a paycheck mentality is getting stronger and stronger and an actual think for yourself education is getting harder and harder to come by. We learn what to think, not how to think. Facts instead of ways to interpret them and analyze them.

Long story short, I think if more people had cathartic/natural experiences with the arts instead of memorizing what year Mozart was born in, they would be more interested in them. For now it will be facecrack and netflix and lack of a real education.


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## Luchesi (Mar 15, 2013)

Zofia said:


> I think this is true of anyone who is an ideologue...
> 
> edit
> 
> Example: That was not real communism/socialism *looks at ussr*


What's real socialism?


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## Zofia (Jan 24, 2019)

Luchesi said:


> What's real socialism?


I'm not going to get into this as by the response you are just going to be pedantic.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Fritz Kobus said:


> Wow, that is totally uninspiring to me. Kind of like that "When you Wish Upon a Star" song.


And it isn't even sung by an insect in a top hat.


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## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

Interesting discussion. The decline of Classical was already inevitable with proliferation of Rock since the 50's which is generally more accessible to the average listener. I don't think its decline Western culture in the US (and Canada) is due to the lack of Christian faith, but rather conservative Platonism, and the rise of the Media. The Christians were basically a sect of Neo-Platonists. His ideas had a huge impact on Western Civilization. I would not give so much credit to Christianity.


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## arpeggio (Oct 4, 2012)

I stumbled on to an old thread which discusses the religious beliefs of composers: Non-religious composers?

Some interesting post.


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## fliege (Nov 7, 2017)

Zofia said:


> Christianity is different from the churches. Christianity is not of man, the churches are of man and can corrupt sadly. I go to three different churches the priest don't care much. They are all much differences and many things they do I read in my bible you should not. Church was adulterated (make sense?) by the culture of the land there.


I would say that certainly Christianity is of man. The basis of the belief structure was decided in well documented meetings, such as the first Council of Nicaea. At that time convoluted theological discussion was popular in general and a mark of learning. The gospels themselves have been copied and translated so many times that they are well known to contain errors and even additions (some very famous, like the Stoning of The Adulteress) that weren't present in earlier versions. We know with a very high degree of certainty that such things are non-original. Of course there are also non-canonical gospels that were chosen not to be included in the bible but could have been. They were likely written slightly later than the cannonical ones, but the cannonical ones were still in being slowly altered during that time anyway and weren't static.

You could, perhaps, re-define Christianity to be a more ethereal non-material thing and claim _that_ is not of man but at that point you're talking about something most people wouldn't immediately think of as being Christianity.

Anyway... off topic...


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## Luchesi (Mar 15, 2013)

Young people have a internet full of CM and religions to dismiss and then to come back to in later life. So much and so little time.

Christology has ideals to live by, but like CM it's predictable from human nature and from those times, so the most interesting questions are about the 4 biopics which were promoted as the best and the most acceptable out of many (scholars say more than 30). The question which helps us understand the development in the earliest years is how did they try to synchronize the Gospels and make them more attractive and remove the contradictions. It’s a fascinating detective story.

I read an essay about great composers in the roles of personalities in the Christian drama. Does anyone know the title?


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## Admiral (Dec 27, 2014)

Well since my beloved Detroit Symphony Orchestra has been mentioned a few times critically i’ll point out that I did my part to combat the decline of Western Civilization by paying for and attending its Sunday performance of the Shostakovich 8

Good crowd, great performance


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## Zofia (Jan 24, 2019)

fliege said:


> I would say that certainly Christianity is of man. The basis of the belief structure was decided in well documented meetings, such as the first Council of Nicaea. At that time convoluted theological discussion was popular in general and a mark of learning. The gospels themselves have been copied and translated so many times that they are well known to contain errors and even additions (some very famous, like the Stoning of The Adulteress) that weren't present in earlier versions. We know with a very high degree of certainty that such things are non-original. Of course there are also non-canonical gospels that were chosen not to be included in the bible but could have been. They were likely written slightly later than the cannonical ones, but the cannonical ones were still in being slowly altered during that time anyway and weren't static.
> 
> You could, perhaps, re-define Christianity to be a more ethereal non-material thing and claim _that_ is not of man but at that point you're talking about something most people wouldn't immediately think of as being Christianity.
> 
> Anyway... off topic...


Maybe you may not believe but if you believe that Jesus Christ is the son of God then Christianity is of God.


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## Zofia (Jan 24, 2019)

Luchesi said:


> Young people have a internet full of CM and religions to dismiss and then to come back to in later life. So much and so little time.
> 
> Christology has ideals to live by, but like CM it's predictable from human nature and from those times, so the most interesting questions are about the 4 biopics which were promoted as the best and the most acceptable out of many (scholars say more than 30). The question which helps us understand the development in the earliest years is how did they try to synchronize the Gospels and make them more attractive and remove the contradictions. It's a fascinating detective story.
> 
> I read an essay about great composers in the roles of personalities in the Christian drama. Does anyone know the title?


No but I try Google maybe this?

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0209993/plotsummary?ref_=tt_ov_pl


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

Zofia said:


> I think this is true of anyone who is an ideologue...
> 
> edit
> 
> Example: That was not real communism/socialism *looks at ussr*


An informed Christian does not have blind faith, but bases their faith on substantive evidence. However, we will soon have a shut down thread if we keep this discussion up. And I think that there may be many in the Christian Church who do not realize their faith is not blind and so simply believe whatever their pastor tells them. Neither will I necessarily simply believe all that the news media or history books have to say. it is often what they don't say that is the critical bit one needs to understand.

Back to topic. It seems that the popular culture of fast paced action video imagery and fast beat pop music would contribute to an attention span that can't wait around to appreciate the beauty of classical music when one is surrounded by so many means of instant gratification. (Do I get a prize for writing a coherent sentence of 45 words with only a single punctuation mark, quite requisite, at the end of the sentence? )


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

Phil loves classical said:


> The Christians were basically a sect of Neo-Platonists.


Actually Christians were around a couple hundred years before the neo-Platonists came along.


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## Steerpike (Dec 29, 2018)

fliege said:


> *I would say that certainly Christianity is of man*. The basis of the belief structure was decided in well documented meetings, such as the first Council of Nicaea. At that time convoluted theological discussion was popular in general and a mark of learning. The gospels themselves have been copied and translated so many times that they are well known to contain errors and even additions (some very famous, like the Stoning of The Adulteress) that weren't present in earlier versions. We know with a very high degree of certainty that such things are non-original. Of course there are also non-canonical gospels that were chosen not to be included in the bible but could have been. They were likely written slightly later than the cannonical ones, but the cannonical ones were still in being slowly altered during that time anyway and weren't static.
> 
> You could, perhaps, re-define Christianity to be a more ethereal non-material thing and claim _that_ is not of man but at that point you're talking about something most people wouldn't immediately think of as being Christianity.
> 
> Anyway... off topic...


Staying off topic, I'd say all religion is of man. In trying to answer fundamental questions of the origin and purpose of our existence, scientifically uninformed human beings simply plumped for the easiest answer and ignored the obvious follow up (...if god(s) created man, then who created god(s)?). A few people became very rich and powerful on the back of these imaginary gods, so had plenty of incentive to perpetuate the myths.

I have to say that god is one of mankind's worst inventions (even worse than hip-hop).

Just my opinion of course.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

Zofia said:


> Christianity is different from the churches. Christianity is not of man, the churches are of man and can corrupt sadly. I go to three different churches the priest don't care much. They are all much differences and many things they do I read in my bible you should not. Church was adulterated (make sense?) by the culture of the land there.
> 
> Still agree Christianity made Europe what it was. The best music is made to praise God that is why modern classical (I like it) is a birth defect of older music without God it become ugly.


Agree. If Christianity were of man, I would not be a Christian. One must stick with the Book and be wary of the churches which have a tendency to become corrupted. I can't say it better than Donald Spoto did in his book "Joan,",when discussing the trial of Joan of Arc:



> But on its deepest level, this was also a trial concerning the absolute freedom of God Himself. Against that freedom, it is always tempting to maintain that God will certainly act in such-and-such a way; that a Church must be structured in such-and-such a way, with an essential male power elite and a clear line of command that guarantees the survival of orthodoxy. This has always been the most dangerous presumption of organized religion: ignoring the centrality of God while slavishly preserving a merely human representation or expression of Him. But God does not conform to human presumptions, nor is His freedom limited. There is no reason why God cannot summon an illiterate provincial girl to a task we would see better suited for a trained general. There is no reason why God must conform to the lowest common denominator of human expectation.


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## haydnguy (Oct 13, 2008)

I liked rock/pop back in the day. However, now I wished we had had more CM that was popular. My father's era (WW2) had big band but that seemed to die out pretty quickly. First thing you know there was rock/pop.

As we listen to Beethoven, Mozart, Shostakovich, etc., that is a beautiful history of art. I fear that the U.S. will not be remembered much for music art (except for some notable exceptions).

If you think about the Beatles' Lennon/McCartney writers from Britain, I doubt that many of us would say that they were the greatest composers in Britain's history. Yet, that might be the equivalent of what the U.S. will be remembered for. Rock/pop.


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## Zofia (Jan 24, 2019)

Fritz Kobus said:


> An informed Christian does not have blind faith, but bases their faith on substantive evidence. However, we will soon have a shut down thread if we keep this discussion up. And I think that there may be many in the Christian Church who do not realize their faith is not blind and so simply believe whatever their pastor tells them. Neither will I necessarily simply believe all that the news media or history books have to say. it is often what they don't say that is the critical bit one needs to understand.
> 
> Back to topic. It seems that the popular culture of fast paced action video imagery and fast beat pop music would contribute to an attention span that can't wait around to appreciate the beauty of classical music when one is surrounded by so many means of instant gratification. (Do I get a prize for writing a coherent sentence of 45 words with only a single punctuation mark, quite requisite, at the end of the sentence? )


If we are nice and no flame war why lock?

Waiting on bus so cannot reply as I would like but I certainly do not have blind faith; I have faith in the lord but less in the clergy. I am baptised Roman Catholic and I much like my church but I go to Eastern Orthodox and Lutheran services to.

I think many many people conflate God with the clergy and even think he is a man with beard like the Simpsons. When truth is we can not understand in the mind what God is but I feel God in my heart.

Try to bring this back to music the majority of Classical canon is inspired by God if you believe or not you must not deny Godly music is better than modern.


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## Zofia (Jan 24, 2019)

Phil loves classical said:


> Interesting discussion. The decline of Classical was already inevitable with proliferation of Rock since the 50's which is generally more accessible to the average listener. I don't think its decline Western culture in the US (and Canada) is due to the lack of Christian faith, but rather conservative Platonism, and the rise of the Media. The Christians were basically a sect of Neo-Platonists. His ideas had a huge impact on Western Civilization. I would not give so much credit to Christianity.


Cannot speak for USA but I would think the major influence in Europe would be Aristotle, Saint Thomas Aquinas perhaps Martin Luther also. I think the platonistic view is one of the issues with the Western Church and why I consider converting to EOC when I am 16.


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## BabyGiraffe (Feb 24, 2017)

Christianity or religions have nothing to do with classical or any other type of music...
Just like the personality of the composer has nothing to do with the emotional quality of his/her music.
I am always surprised when people in 21st century start talking about religion - have these people read anything from these "holy" books? You can get way more even from introductory ethics/philosophy course... (Of course, I am talking about the Abrahamic religions; I found Eastern Asian religions for interesting, but their are not "real" religions; many of them are more like philosophical schools.)


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## Zofia (Jan 24, 2019)

BabyGiraffe said:


> Christianity or religions have nothing to do with classical or any other type of music...
> Just like the personality of the composer has nothing to do with the emotional quality of his/her music.
> I am always surprised when people in 21st century start talking about religion - have these people read anything from these "holy" books? You can get way more even from introductory ethics/philosophy course... (Of course, I am talking about the Abrahamic religions; I found Eastern Asian religions for interesting, but their are not "real" religions; many of them are more like philosophical schools.)


Many of the composers wrote music for inspired by or to praise God. I think you'll find that Christianity has very much a Greekness runing through it and adoption of many Greek principles logos, telos etc...

You prove my point people shun their own culture but say then go to say this other culture is fine. I have been respectful I think and you do not have to believe what I do that is ok. I think your argument is morally bankrupt and suspect you know little of eastern beliefs.

There is a reason that classical music and the enlightenment happened in Europe and not China, Indian and Japan...


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## larold (Jul 20, 2017)

_Christianity or religions have nothing to do with classical or any other type of music..._

I agree many great composers, Haydn, Mozart and Beethoven to name just a few, wrote titanic, memorable music because of allegiance to their religions and God.

If young people are rejecting or not interested in classical music now it's more likely because of the quality of music being written today. Young people are interested in what is relevant, another way of saying what is contemporary. Contemporary classical music has not produced anything that has turned the world on its ear in decades, nothing that has created new fans.

People like to make excuses for what is wrong with CM but in my opinion it is the quality of contemporary music more to blame for the flameout than anything else.


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## Zofia (Jan 24, 2019)

larold said:


> _Christianity or religions have nothing to do with classical or any other type of music..._
> 
> I agree many great composers, Haydn, Mozart and Beethoven to name just a few, wrote titanic, memorable music because of allegiance to their religions and God.
> 
> ...


My point was originally that the decline in Christianity mirrored the decline in music standard both linked to the shaming of Western culture in the minds of the young. As example the disregard for Abrahamic religions and yet accepting eastern ways as fine.

If you believe in God or not was not my point the values you were raised by were Christian influenced by Greek and Roman thoughts. Every aspect of our culture draws on this and as we move away from this way of being our culture is now declines faster and faster.


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## Jacck (Dec 24, 2017)

Zofia said:


> My point was originally that the decline in Christianity mirrored the decline in music standard both linked to the shaming of Western culture in the minds of the young. As example the disregard for Abrahamic religions and yet accepting eastern ways as fine.
> 
> If you believe in God or not was not my point the values you were raised by were Christian influenced by Greek and Roman thoughts. Every aspect of our culture draws on this and as we move away from this way of being our culture is now declines faster and faster.


the old Abrahamic religions are anachronistic relics of the past. I read the whole Bible about a year ago. I did so with an open mind. And the whole Old Testament feels like a collection of myths of one shepard people from the Middle East. The Old testament was written 4.-5. centuries BCE, but deals with matters happening 1500-1000 BCE, that were passed down through oral tradition. The oral tradition intruduced a lot of mythology and need to justify all the wars that the Israelites were fighting, so they justified it with their God, that was supposedly directing this chosen nation through history. But the morality contained in the Old testament is primitive, cruel and bloodthirsty (God ordering his chosen people to kill whole cities and villages etc). The oldest parts of the Old Testament, ie the creation myths, the flood etc, are taken over from the Babylonians and Summerians. This, just like Islam, just like Judaism, are old religions, that are completely anachronistic and have not much to offer to current world. 
Some kind of spirituality is possibly needed, but a new one has to be found, a religion which is universal and can incorporate all the people, all the nature and all the universe. Look what modern christianity has degenerated into.


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## Zofia (Jan 24, 2019)

Jacck said:


> the old Abrahamic religions are anachronistic relics of the past. I read the whole Bible about a year ago. I did so with an open mind. And the whole Old Testament feels like a collection of myths of one shepard people from the Middle East. The Old testament was written 4.-5. centuries BCE, but deals with matters happening 1500-1000 BCE, that were passed down through oral tradition. The oral tradition intruduced a lot of mythology and need to justify all the wars that the Israelites were fighting, so they justified it with their God, that was supposedly directing this chosen nation through history. But the morality contained in the Old testament is primitive, cruel and bloodthirsty (God ordering his chosen people to kill whole cities and villages etc). The oldest parts of the Old Testament, ie the creation myths, the flood etc, are taken over from the Babylonians and Summerians. This, just like Islam, just like Judaism, are old religions, that are completely anachronistic and have not much to offer to current world.
> Some kind of spirituality is possibly needed, but a new one has to be found, a religion which is universal and can incorporate all the people, all the nature and all the universe. Look what modern christianity has degenerated into.


What is wrong with the New Testament? The Christian part of the Bible...


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## Jacck (Dec 24, 2017)

Zofia said:


> What is wrong with the New Testament? The Christian part of the Bible...


my main problem with it is the fact that it was not written by Jesus. We know nothing of the real Jesus, everything we know are secon-, third-, and n-th hand accounts. Then I dislike the cult that has been build around Jesus. A figure nailed to a cross is being worshipped. When I listen to any of the preachings that you can hear in current churches, it does not make any sense to me, and I suspect the priests themselves know not what they talk about. If you want some real spirituality, then read Meister Eckhart or Jelaluddin Rumi


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

I have faith in the real world and humanity which is infinitely more dynamic and complex than any writer, movie, TV doc, can relate or critique. And as far as any ancient writings are concerned, it is fairly well known that the discipline of fact based history writing didn't really begin until Thucydides. We can only uncover the truths and falsehoods through archeology and other scientific research. For example, there is nothing in the historical record of the ancient Egyptians that mentions the bondage of the Israelite's in their land.

Concerning the topic of this thread, I'm not worried about the death of classical music. It hasn't died in my city.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

BabyGiraffe said:


> Christianity or religions have nothing to do with classical or any other type of music...
> Just like the personality of the composer has nothing to do with the emotional quality of his/her music.


At face value, neither of these statements is true. Certainly we'd be presumptuous to try to read too much of an artist's personality or values into his work, but the fact that those factors determine the form and meaning of the work to some degree is obvious in case after case. The differences in the formal and expressive domains encompassed by the music of Bach and Handel, or Haydn and Mozart, or Brahms and Wagner, or Tchaikovsky and Mussorgsky, or Berg and Webern, are clear expressions of personal differences, both intellectual and psychological.

An artist's style and choice of genre or medium are influenced by numerous factors, some of which may be external and purely practical. But art of depth and consequence is not made on an assembly line. This is obviously true of music in the Romantic era, but the subjective element is present even in the music of earlier periods when music may have been seen more as a craft or a commodity than a vehicle of self-expression. Bach had to turn out cantatas week after week because it was required by his contract, and when he wasn't employed by the church he wrote other kinds of pieces, generally works with no overt religious subject or connotations. But it's wrong to think that those cantatas don't convey feelings inspired by his religion, or that the choices of form and technique employed in his secular works are not reflective of the kind of person he was. A keyboard work by Bach and one by his exact contemporary Domenico Scarlatti inhabit different expressive worlds. That's no accident.


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## BabyGiraffe (Feb 24, 2017)

larold said:


> Haydn, Mozart and Beethoven to name just a few, wrote titanic, memorable music because...


...they had very good training, motivation and knew what they were doing.

What was the name of the small girl "prodigy" that composes in a galant style? I've seen her mentioned on these forums. There was a youtube video where she improvises on a given short motive.
All this was possible, because her musical teacher is literally brainwashing her with partimenti, nothing to do with God or religion, or being a "genius" (or Mozart's reincarnation).

You don't have to believe in any religion to write some music that can be used in a religious rite; you don't have to be "evil" to compose scary or dissonant music; you don't have to be "good" to compose consonant music using simple (voices, flutes, strings) harmonic timbres.


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## Merl (Jul 28, 2016)

BabyGiraffe said:


> What was the name of the small girl "prodigy" that composes in a galant style? I've seen her mentioned on these forums. There was a youtube video where she improvises on a given short motive..


That's Alma Deutscher. This is the video you're talking about.....


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## Red Terror (Dec 10, 2018)

Zofia said:


> What is wrong with the New Testament? The Christian part of the Bible...


You'll soon learn not to get into religious discussions with those who are unwilling to engage in civilized discourse-they have made up their minds. Leave them to themselves.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Red Terror said:


> You'll soon learn not to get into religious discussions with those who are unwilling to engage in civilized discourse-they have made up their minds. Leave them to themselves.


Indeed. People who have made up their minds should never talk to people who have made up their minds differently.

Silence is golden.


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## Jacck (Dec 24, 2017)

Red Terror said:


> You'll soon learn not to get into religious discussions with those who are unwilling to engage in civilized discourse-they have made up their minds. Leave them to themselves.


Zofia is still young and she is still searching. I have this search already completed and have made up my mind and I am not searching any more, nor I am seeking any discourses about these topics with believing Christians. I have quite definite and unchangeable views of Christianity. The best that Christianity has to offer spiritually are the mystics, especially Meister Eckhart

_"The eye with which I see God is the same with which God sees me. My eye and God's eye is one eye, and one sight, and one knowledge, and one love."

"A quiet mind is one which nothing weighs on, nothing worries, which, free from ties and from all self-seeking, is wholly merged into the will of God and dead to its own." _


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## Red Terror (Dec 10, 2018)

Woodduck said:


> Indeed. People who have made up their minds should never talk to people who have made up their minds differently.
> 
> Silence is golden.


With regards to Faith-yes. We can certainly converse about other subjects. Shunning the world isn't part of Christianity.


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## regenmusic (Oct 23, 2014)

Bach Gave us God's Word
Mozart Gave us God's Laughter
Beethoven gave us God's Fire
God gave us music so that we might pray without words.
Found in a German Opera House


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## Tikoo Tuba (Oct 15, 2018)

Music for a New Heaven will certainly be modern (youthful) and passionate . I imagine the essential passion within that music is just not openly evident right now . Likely it exists , protected .


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## Zofia (Jan 24, 2019)

I am sorry everyone. people look to be “triggered” by my mention of Christian culture the belief in the religion or the goodness vs badness of it was never my point.

If you are born in the West you were/are raised in underlying culture of Western values. Christianity is but one pillar of this along with Greco-Roman legacy and the European nations. If you remove one pillar the house will fall down that was my point I think justified by the hostile reaction.

Certainly would not have had to explain it two times if I’d mention Buddhism...

Will talk of it no more sad people close thier mind.


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## Tikoo Tuba (Oct 15, 2018)

I happen to like Norwegian Troll Music and my tree house stands on it . Nothing un-sacred going on . I don't mind Jesus-sharing my porridge with the gnome that comes around for a classical spoonful .


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## Larkenfield (Jun 5, 2017)

Zofia said:


> I am sorry everyone. people look to be "triggered" by my mention of Christian culture the belief in the religion or the goodness vs badness of it was never my point.
> 
> If you are born in the West you were/are raised in underlying culture of Western values. Christianity is but one pillar of this along with Greco-Roman legacy and the European nations. If you remove one pillar the house will fall down that was my point I think justified by the hostile reaction.
> 
> ...


I don't think you've done anything wrong.

I though you might enjoy this:

'Most ancient religions and spiritual traditions share the common insight-that our "normal" state of mind is marred by a fundamental defect. However, out of this insight into the nature of the human condition-we may call it the bad news-arises a second insight: the good news of the possibility of a radical transformation of human consciousness. In Hindu teachings (and sometimes in Buddhism also), this transformation is called enlightenment. In the teachings of Jesus, it is salvation, and in Buddhism, it is the end of suffering. Liberation and awakening are other terms used to describe this transformation."'
-_A New Earth_ by Eckhart Tolle

_I believe that sound can be an active part of that enlightenment, salvation, or transformation._


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## Zofia (Jan 24, 2019)

Larkenfield said:


> Larken[/I]


Thank you I actually have read some Tolle in our religious study class. I am a Christian and believe in Christ I am not close minded to think God only appears to those of the Bible. I think he most certainly spoke with Aristotle.

Aristotle almost says some of the same things are a Jesus something like 400 years before him? I just have not responded for want to revert to my more comfortable language.

I also think God would appear to India and China; Iran also Zoroaster was likely a prophet of God. Ultimately all before had failed and God acted to send his Son Jesus Christ to us.


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