# What did Brahms think of Mendelssohn?



## flamencosketches (Jan 4, 2019)

Does anyone know? Just curious, as I see a lot of parallels between the music of the Brahms and of the somewhat older Mendelssohn, from the same generation of Brahms' one-time mentor Schumann. Perhaps even more similarities than I see with Schumann, whose music I have come to see as a starting point for that of Brahms. 

Between the two, Brahms' music is more thematically dense, Mendelssohn's more light in texture. But both clearly worshipped classical forms, both were seen as somewhat conservative in their time, and both wrote virtuosic parts and pieces for their instruments of choice. Just a few parallels I've noticed.

I know Brahms idolized Bach, Mozart, and Beethoven. Perhaps he saw something in Mendelssohn, too? It doesn't need to be said that Mendelssohn was not quite in the league of the aforementioned, but he was a hell of a composer in his time, IMO. As Schumann said, he was "the Mozart of the early 19th century" (paraphrase).


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## flamencosketches (Jan 4, 2019)

Secondary question: who made good recordings of Mendelssohn's symphonies? I have heard exactly none of them. Same goes for the oratorios. That being said, in my Brahms comparison, I must disclaim that I am speaking only in harmonic, melodic, thematic/developmental terms, not so much orchestration/tone coloration or rhythmic. I still have yet to discover the first clue to where Brahms' orchestration comes from.


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## Haydn70 (Jan 8, 2017)

flamencosketches said:


> Does anyone know? Just curious, as I see a lot of parallels between the music of the Brahms and of the somewhat older Mendelssohn, from the same generation of Brahms' one-time mentor Schumann. Perhaps even more similarities than I see with Schumann, whose music I have come to see as a starting point for that of Brahms.
> 
> Between the two, Brahms' music is more thematically dense, Mendelssohn's more light in texture. But both clearly worshipped classical forms, both were seen as somewhat conservative in their time, and both wrote virtuosic parts and pieces for their instruments of choice. Just a few parallels I've noticed.
> 
> I know Brahms idolized Bach, Mozart, and Beethoven. Perhaps he saw something in Mendelssohn, too? It doesn't need to be said that Mendelssohn was not quite in the league of the aforementioned, but he was a hell of a composer in his time, IMO. As Schumann said, he was "the Mozart of the early 19th century" (paraphrase).


I have the Swafford biography of Brahms and checked every mention of Mendelssohn in it. Not one word about what Brahms thought of him.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

There are many good performances of Mendelssohn's symphonies. One classic everyone should have is Peter Maag's first recording of the 3rd ("Scottish") with the LSO. An invigorating recording of the 4th ("Italian") and 5th ("Reformation") is John Eliot Gardiner's, which also includes the only recording I know of of Mendelssohn's never-played revision of the 4th. It didn't need revising, but apparently Mendelssohn was a bit insecure.


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## RICK RIEKERT (Oct 9, 2017)

According to Leon Botstein 'The Aesthetics of Assimilation and Affirmation: Reconstructing the Career of Felix Mendelssohn', Brahms "admired Mendelssohn greatly". English music critic John Warrack states in his essay 'Brahms and his Contemporaries' that Brahms "admired Mendelssohn". In his study of Brahms and Mendelssohn, Hans Kohlhase writes "Brahms admired the work of the older composer".

When Clara Schumann chided Brahms in a letter for mentioning the German composer Theodor Kullak in the same sentence with Mendelssohn, Brahms replied, "I do not lump together the two names Mendelssohn and Kullak. I use such names as Kullak, etc. to annoy people when I am angry. I do not use M's name before bad people, but only when I am particularly proud of a certain piece. Who knows whether it is you or I who love his music best! I readily acknowledge that you have heard M's works far more often than I have, and it is not my fate to be so spoilt in these matters as [you]."


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## RICK RIEKERT (Oct 9, 2017)

Woodduck said:


> There are many good performances of Mendelssohn's symphonies. One classic everyone should have is Peter Maag's first recording of the 3rd ("Scottish") with the LSO. An invigorating recording of the 4th ("Italian") and 5th ("Reformation") is John Eliot Gardiner's, which also includes the only recording I know of of Mendelssohn's never-played revision of the 4th. It didn't need revising, but apparently Mendelssohn was a bit insecure.


It probably did not lessen Mendelssohn's insecurity when in his review of the Scottish Symphony Robert Schumann mistakenly believed it was Mendelssohn's Italian Symphony and wrote how its beauty made him regret that he had never gone to Italy!


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

RICK RIEKERT said:


> It probably did not lessen Mendelssohn's insecurity when in his review of the Scottish Symphony Robert Schumann mistakenly believed it was Mendelssohn's Italian Symphony and wrote how its beauty made him regret that he had never gone to Italy!


Evidently Schumann didn't notice the Scottish-style, pentatonic-flavored tunes in the scherzo and finale. The equivalent local color in the "Italian" is the saltarello rhythm of its finale. Schumann's mistake just shows how preconceptions and expectations can alter perception. I'm sure he was duly embarrassed.


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## Larkenfield (Jun 5, 2017)

There’s the ’Is Mendelssohn Underrated?’ thread that’s been active for days. Mendelssohn symphony suggestions can be found there. I’ve noticed little or no influence of Mendelssohn on Brahms because Schumann was a contemporary of Mendelssohn and a great influence on Brahms. But of course, both thought highly of Mozart.


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## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

flamencosketches said:


> Secondary question: who made good recordings of Mendelssohn's symphonies? I have heard exactly none of them. Same goes for the oratorios.


It depends on what you're looking for. I like precision, so Szell's recording of the 4th rings my chimes. I also like Maazel's recording of the Reformation symphony, Number 5, because he gets the transition from the first to the second theme in the last movement right. Karajan's version of the 2nd is slow and majestic, and it works for me. The Scottish symphony doesn't do much for me, so I haven't found an ultimate recording. I'll have to try Woodduck's suggestion of Peter Maag. And the first symphony, I don't pay enough attention to give any advice.

As far as oratorios, the recording of Elijah in English by de Burgos features Dietrich Fiescher-Dieskau, and his German-inflected English makes Elijah sound like the wild-eyed prophet that I envision him to be. There's a more recent recording with Bryn Terfel which the critics fell over themselves for when it came out, but it doesn't do much for me.

I have Herreweghe's recording of Paulus. I haven't heard any others, so all I can say is, it's good enough for me.

I started out with Abbado's symphony cycle. A lot of people like that one.

Anyway, if you came to my house, those are the ones you'd hear.


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## flamencosketches (Jan 4, 2019)

Thanks for that, and @Woodduck, you too. Big fan of Fischer-Dieskau I am, so I will have to look into that Elijah. I have heard snippets of it (the German version, though) and liked a lot what I heard. I have been wanting to explore Abbado's recordings, as I understand he was a pretty highly regarded conductor of his times, and it seems his Mendelssohn cycle is among his best loved works. I will be looking into that one. I am also a big fan of Szell, he is one of my favorite conductors, so I will have to seek that out as well.

Like I said, I haven't heard a note of any of his symphonies, but I did just listen to Maag/LSO's Midsummer Night's Dream Overture, and that was killer. Definitely going to seek out this CD with the Scottish Symphony and the Midsummer Night overture + incidental music. (I'm looking at the "Decca Legends" remaster, assuming this one should be pretty good). 

So it seems Brahms perhaps passively liked Mendelssohn's music, from what we've seen here. No crazy admiration or influence but no active distaste. Seems he was moreso just unfamiliar with a lot of it, then? Sounds like the candle of Mendelssohn's music burned out pretty quickly after his death, at which time Brahms was a young teen. So nothing terribly surprising, then. If nothing else, it seemed both embodied a certain conservative of the spirit of their times, Brahms representing a somewhat more developed manifestation of which. And as mentioned, both idolized Mozart. This clearly comes through in the music of both (this being the case, though, curious neither wrote any operas).

By the way, from the little taste of his orchestral music I've just heard, it seems M. was a great orchestrator indeed. Very rich in color. In reference to the "is Mendelssohn underrated" thread, I would say definitely not; he seems to be given sufficient praise and admiration as a legend.


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## Bill Cooke (May 20, 2017)

I recommend this recording of the Italian:


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## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

flamencosketches said:


> By the way, from the little taste of his orchestral music I've just heard, it seems M. was a great orchestrator indeed.


I understand that he composed the Reformation Symphony in full score. That's what I call confidence in your orchestration skills.


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## Haydn70 (Jan 8, 2017)

flamencosketches said:


> Thanks for that, and @Woodduck, you too. Big fan of Fischer-Dieskau I am, so I will have to look into that Elijah. I have heard snippets of it (the German version, though) and liked a lot what I heard. I have been wanting to explore Abbado's recordings, as I understand he was a pretty highly regarded conductor of his times, and it seems his Mendelssohn cycle is among his best loved works. I will be looking into that one. I am also a big fan of Szell, he is one of my favorite conductors, so I will have to seek that out as well.
> 
> Like I said, I haven't heard a note of any of his symphonies, but I did just listen to Maag/LSO's Midsummer Night's Dream Overture, and that was killer. Definitely going to seek out this CD with the Scottish Symphony and the Midsummer Night overture + incidental music. (I'm looking at the "Decca Legends" remaster, assuming this one should be pretty good).
> 
> ...


Mendelssohn composed three operas:

Die beiden Neffen
Die Heimkehr aus der Fremde
Die Hochzeit des Camacho


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## Haydn70 (Jan 8, 2017)

Manxfeeder said:


> I understand that he composed the Reformation Symphony in full score. That's what I call confidence in your orchestration skills.


What would you have expected him to do? He certainly didn't use the "short score" technique ala film music.


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## flamencosketches (Jan 4, 2019)

My mistake. If I haven't made it clear in other posts, I'm not particularly familiar with much of Mendelssohn's music  

In any case, it's safe to assume none have really broken through into the greater repertoire? I'm no opera guy, but I'm certainly not familiar with those names. I find it equally interesting that while Schubert wrote many operas, none really took off, despite his exceptional skill in writing for the voice and adept orchestration abilities.


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## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

Haydn70 said:


> What would you have expected him to do? He certainly didn't use the "short score" technique ala film music.


This is what I am referring to, quoting from Eric Werner's Mendelssohn, A New Image of the Composer and His Age:

"At least in the first movement he had tried a wild experiment in instrumentation . . . Without even sketching principal motifs or leading voices, he orchestrated the first movement measure by measure from top to bottom . . . This experiment bears witness to Mendelssohn's incredible power of memory but also to his somewhat childish joy in this virtuosity."


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## Haydn70 (Jan 8, 2017)

flamencosketches said:


> My mistake. If I haven't made it clear in other posts, I'm not particularly familiar with much of Mendelssohn's music
> 
> In any case, it's safe to assume none have really broken through into the greater repertoire? I'm no opera guy, but I'm certainly not familiar with those names. I find it equally interesting that while Schubert wrote many operas, none really took off, despite his exceptional skill in writing for the voice and adept orchestration abilities.


You assumption re: Mendelssohn's operas not making into the greater repertoire is correct. The problem with Schubert's operas are the librettos.


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## flamencosketches (Jan 4, 2019)

Aside from that, musically, do you think any of them are worth listening to? Same question goes for Mendelssohn's three.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

flamencosketches said:


> Aside from that, musically, do you think any of them are worth listening to? Same question goes for Mendelssohn's three.


It's possible for an opera to be full of attractive music and not work as musical drama. Pacing music so that it tells a story is an art in itself, and even some great operas fail to sustain the narrative momentum here and there. (Of course having a good libretto helps the composer succeed in that.) I suspect that's the problem with Schubert's and Mendelssohn's.


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## Larkenfield (Jun 5, 2017)

Haydn70 said:


> What would you have expected him to do? He certainly didn't use the "short score" technique ala film music.


Mahler wrote his 10th symphony in a short score that he later was able to partly orchestrate. Someone writing a short score is hardly a film technique, mentioned in a derogatory way as a put-down, of course.


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## Larkenfield (Jun 5, 2017)

I believe that if one were more familiar with the music of both Mendelssohn and Brahms, the relationship between the two would probably answer itself—that there was little influence of the former on the latter. Schumann’s inspired genius was a far, far greater influence, though Mendelssohn was undoubtedly a master in his own right.


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## StrE3ss (Feb 20, 2019)

Got 1968 Abbado with London Symphony Orchestra that i appreciate a lot


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## Guest (Mar 31, 2019)

Woodduck said:


> It's possible for an opera to be full of attractive music and not work as musical drama. Pacing music so that it tells a story is an art in itself, and even some great operas fail to sustain the narrative momentum here and there. (Of course having a good libretto helps the composer succeed in that.) I suspect that's the problem with Schubert's and Mendelssohn's.


And Haydn's....


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## flamencosketches (Jan 4, 2019)

Larkenfield said:


> I believe that if one were more familiar with the music of both Mendelssohn and Brahms, the relationship between the two would probably answer itself-that there was little influence of the former on the latter. Schumann's inspired genius was a far, far greater influence, though Mendelssohn was undoubtedly a master in his own right.


I can't be the only one who hears parallels ¯\_(ツ)_/¯


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## Guest (Mar 31, 2019)

flamencosketches said:


> [Mendie] was a hell of a composer in his time, IMO....[W]ho made good recordings of Mendelssohn's symphonies? I have heard exactly none of them.


Why do you say that Mendie was a helluva composer when you haven't heard his symphonies? In other words, what have you have you heard that enables you to reach this conclusion.


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## flamencosketches (Jan 4, 2019)

Root said:


> Why do you say that Mendie was a helluva composer when you haven't heard his symphonies? In other words, what have you have you heard that enables you to reach this conclusion.


The Octet, the Piano Trios, the Songs Without Words, the Violin Concerto, Midsummer Night's Dream. Between those few works alone, he rises up above most other composers in his time. I've listened so far to one of his symphonies, earlier today, and its quality seems consistent with the rest of what I've heard.


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## Haydn70 (Jan 8, 2017)

Root said:


> Why do you say that Mendie was a helluva composer when you haven't heard his symphonies? In other words, what have you have you heard that enables you to reach this conclusion.


The following works, none of them symphonies, are enough to tell us Mendelssohn was a helluva composer:

Octet for Strings
Incidental music for Midsummer's Night Dream
Hebrides Overture
Calm Sea and Prosperous Voyage Overture
String Quartet No. 6 in F minor
Violin Concerto


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## Guest (Mar 31, 2019)

flamencosketches said:


> The Octet, the Piano Trios, the Songs Without Words, the Violin Concerto, Midsummer Night's Dream. Between those few works alone, he rises up above most other composers in his time. I've listened so far to one of his symphonies, earlier today, and its quality seems consistent with the rest of what I've heard.


Good stuff. It might be worth giving Fingal's a shot too.


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## tdc (Jan 17, 2011)

The string symphonies are enjoyable too, I think I like them about as much as his actual symphonies. They are certainly worth listening to.


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## tdc (Jan 17, 2011)

I seem to recall in the Swafford Brahms bio it mentions that Schumann rated Mendelssohn very highly and that Mendelssohn at that time was quite revered. I also don't recall Brahms making any disparaging remarks about Mendelssohn's music, so I think it is safe to say Brahms knew of him and respected him, but Brahms was generally more focused on studying the music of Bach, Mozart and Beethoven, and also composers like Schubert, Schumann and Wagner. I don't think Mendelssohn was a major influence.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

Haydn70 said:


> Mendelssohn composed three operas:
> 
> Die beiden Neffen
> Die Heimkehr aus der Fremde
> Die Hochzeit des Camacho


I thought there were only three, and my list is slightly different from yours, but actually there is a list of Mendelssohn's operas *here* with 6 operas and a fragment.

*Interesting article on Mendelssohn and opera*.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Both Mendelssohn and Schumann had long-lasting impacts on 19th-century symphonies and concertos. In addition to his many additions to the orchestral repertoire, Mendelssohn left several works that are clearly in the "genius" category.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

We should also remember that Mendelssohn resurrected Bach's Toccata and Fugue in D minor, Bach's choral works (via the St Matthew Passion), and a couple of Beethoven's works that had sunk without a trace three or four decades earlier - the Violin Concerto and the 4th Piano Concerto.


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## flamencosketches (Jan 4, 2019)

KenOC said:


> We should also remember that Mendelssohn resurrected Bach's Toccata and Fugue in D minor, Bach's choral works (via the St Matthew Passion), and a couple of Beethoven's works that had sunk without a trace three or four decades earlier - the Violin Concerto and the 4th Piano Concerto.


There we have it - Mendelssohn WAS an influence on Brahms (if only indirectly, through his role in the revival of Bach).


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## pjang23 (Oct 8, 2009)

The scherzo of Brahms's 3rd piano sonata quotes last movement of Mendelssohn's 2nd Piano Trio, so clearly there was some high regard.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

KenOC said:


> Both Mendelssohn and Schumann had long-lasting impacts on 19th-century symphonies and concertos. In addition to his many additions to the orchestral repertoire, Mendelssohn left several works that are clearly in the "genius" category.


_"Mendelssohn's Violin Concerto influenced the concertos of many other composers, who adopted aspects of it in their own concertos.
For example, the unusual placement of the cadenza before the recapitulation is reflected in the violin concertos of Tchaikovsky (where the cadenza is similarly placed) and Sibelius (where the cadenza serves to extend the development section). Moreover, following this concerto it was very rare for a composer to leave a cadenza unwritten for the soloist to improvise as in the days of Mozart and Beethoven. The linking of the three movements also influenced other concertos, such as Liszt's Second Piano Concerto."_


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