# From Classical to Metal and the questions behind Metal



## PeaceWalker (Oct 24, 2012)

I have been raised in a house where pianos and violins are played to no end, yet my brother and I later then discovered metal. We loved it, legends such as Metallica, Iron maiden, Slayer and Megadeth filled our teenage years. We still practice and listen to Classical works, but are still avid listeners to the metal scene.

My question is that is there anyone of you ever went from Classical to Metal? Do you think any of the metal stereotypes are true? do you think metal as a form of art toxic?

I myself rather think that metal educates, much like classical.


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## Metalkitsune (Jul 11, 2011)

I never knew anyone who went from classical to metal. I think smart people listen to metal. There are quiet a few studies about smart people listening to metal. Of course it seems back in the early 90's whenever i listened to metal,like metallica,iron maiden and such. It would drive my dad nuts, he went out and always bought stuff like country music cd's and made up lies about why i should listen to them. Like claiming that the former George Bush senior listened to a certain band. Why can't parents accept their kids for who they are?


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## regressivetransphobe (May 16, 2011)

Metal is evil and satanic and talentless noise and I am literally a 1970s housewife, and furthermore,


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## Metalkitsune (Jul 11, 2011)

regressivetransphobe said:


> Metal is evil and satanic and talentless noise and I am literally a 1970s housewife, and furthermore,


People could say the same thing about rap music. Most rap music degrades women,talks about bling,bling,drivebys,and such. And many rappers seem to use the N word,which is a word of such extreme hatred, that no one should ever use that word.

And most rap music is mostly a person talking over a beat,that was made on a computer.

While metal,you have to learn how to play guitar,drums,bass,and even sing. Many of those singers who do death metal vocals practice to learn how to sing like that. If you tried to force a scream like that, you'd lose your voice.


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## regressivetransphobe (May 16, 2011)

Yes rap is just talking over a beat. Ha Ha Ha. Anybody could do that am I right? The new generation doesn't know anything about real music like... Lead Zepplin and the Tolling Stones(?). 

Plus it is very bad when kids today listen to a rap and do what the rap people say (THAT'S HOW 9/11 HAPPENED)


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## PeaceWalker (Oct 24, 2012)

Metalkitsune said:


> People could say the same thing about rap music. Most rap music degrades women,talks about bling,bling,drivebys,and such. And many rappers seem to use the N word,which is a word of such extreme hatred, that no one should ever use that word.
> 
> And most rap music is mostly a person talking over a beat,that was made on a computer.
> 
> While metal,you have to learn how to play guitar,drums,bass,and even sing. Many of those singers who do death metal vocals practice to learn how to sing like that. If you tried to force a scream like that, you'd lose your voice.


rap nowadays is crap, pure and utter garbage rappers rapping about things nothing other than drugs, partying, money and sex. But rap back then had some meaning, take 2pac shakur for example. back when i was a wee lad, listened to his song "til the end of time" and loved it. Now being a tad bit matured, I understand more and more about the song.




maybe it's my youth that's letting myself love some of his works, but nevertheless, rap was better then than now.

But now i think that the "popular" or "hit" songs that the media is trying to promote now is more toxic.


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## neoshredder (Nov 7, 2011)

Metal is awesome. Cool that you went from Classical to Metal. I went from Metal to Classical though but still like Metal. Just maybe not as much as in the day. And rap is horrible junk.


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## Iforgotmypassword (May 16, 2011)

regressivetransphobe said:


> Metal is evil and satanic and talentless noise and I am literally a 1970s housewife, and furthermore,





regressivetransphobe said:


> Yes rap is just talking over a beat. Ha Ha Ha. Anybody could do that am I right? The new generation doesn't know anything about real music like... Lead Zepplin and the Tolling Stones(?).
> 
> Plus it is very bad when kids today listen to a rap and do what the rap people say (THAT'S HOW 9/11 HAPPENED)







Never shall I miss a chance to reply with this.


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## quack (Oct 13, 2011)

Iforgotmypassword said:


> Never shall I miss a chance to reply with this.


Wow this metal music isn't as bad as I thought, it's quite nice, or is that wrap?


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## regressivetransphobe (May 16, 2011)

Iforgotmypassword said:


> Never shall I miss a chance to reply with this.


curses foiled again

edit: we have too many metal threads though, for real. Maybe we should make one into a megathread for the genre.


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## Iforgotmypassword (May 16, 2011)

regressivetransphobe said:


> curses foiled again
> 
> edit: we have too many metal threads though, for real. Maybe we should make one into a megathread for the genre.


This has been done many a time before. It always gets trampled by anti-metal classicalheads haha


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## neoshredder (Nov 7, 2011)

Yeah anti-metal posters always need to drop by.


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## jani (Jun 15, 2012)

regressivetransphobe said:


> Metal is evil and satanic and talentless noise and I am literally a 1970s housewife, and furthermore,


Are you Al Gores wife?


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## Ralfy (Jul 19, 2010)

After reading lots of books, one must take a break and, say, watch some TV.


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## jani (Jun 15, 2012)

For those who didn't understand my joke, Al Gores wife was part of the parents group which sued bunch Metal bands/artists at the 80s.


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## Catharsis (Mar 15, 2010)

There are great musicians and song-writers in every genre. Denying a genre is a little ignorant; although (even biased as I am), it is much harder to apply this paradigm to rap and hip-hop. So, before you brand metal, you should try to assess some of the great material that has come out of it: Iron Maiden, Emperor, Dream Theater, Opeth etc. They're all very gifted people.


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## Metalkitsune (Jul 11, 2011)

jani said:


> For those who didn't understand my joke, Al Gores wife was part of the parents group which sued bunch Metal bands/artists at the 80s.


I've heard of them. They were known as the PMRC. Back in the early 90's i had to tape music off a rock radio station,because that was the only way i could have rock music in my house back in those days.


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## regressivetransphobe (May 16, 2011)

I can't wait until some kind of music I don't give a **** about causes moral panic and parents start trying to ban it.

"Cloud rap and dubstep are corrupting the minds of children!"

"Uh... Yeah! I agree."


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## Schubussy (Nov 2, 2012)

Metalkitsune said:


> People could say the same thing about rap music. Most rap music degrades women,talks about bling,bling,drivebys,and such. And many rappers seem to use the N word,which is a word of such extreme hatred, that no one should ever use that word.
> 
> And most rap music is mostly a person talking over a beat,that was made on a computer.
> 
> While metal,you have to learn how to play guitar,drums,bass,and even sing. Many of those singers who do death metal vocals practice to learn how to sing like that. If you tried to force a scream like that, you'd lose your voice.


I have a lot of hip-hop music and none of it is like that. And most death metal nowadays is mostly horrifically bland and dull so even if it does take skill to play I don't really care.


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## neoshredder (Nov 7, 2011)

Schubussy said:


> I have a lot of hip-hop music and none of it is like that. And most death metal nowadays is mostly horrifically bland and dull so even if it does take skill to play I don't really care.


Welll I can't disagree with you more. Hip-hop is the definition of dull. Metal is quite exciting actually. When I'm looking for some adrenaline pumping stuff, I go to metal. :headbangs:


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## Schubussy (Nov 2, 2012)

Don't get me wrong, I do like metal. Just saying lots of death metal is very bland. When I want adrenaline pumping stuff I listen to metal too, hip-hop's just for different moods, it can still be good. (If you don't like it fair enough, I just get a bit annoyed when people dismiss it based on the mainstream pop stuff, it's like when people dismiss metal as 'noise'.)


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## neoshredder (Nov 7, 2011)

Hip-Hop just reminds me about how bad this culture has gotten. Hearing cars slamming their bass loud and stuff like that. It is everything I can't stand about some people today. They basically live hip-hop. lol


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## Schubussy (Nov 2, 2012)

Well I can't defend that haha but really that's mostly just crappy hip-pop stuff and people that listen to it. Underground stuff has none of the 'bling' or whatever, and a lot of 90's hip-hop I think just captures a dark atmospheric urban sound perfectly, like Mobb Deep's 'The Infamous', it just has a great atmosphere to it. Even if you don't like it it surely has a lot more merit to it than Flo Rida or 50 cent or whatever.


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## NightHawk (Nov 3, 2011)

Metal and Classical are not antonyms - Metal is, _I think_, very obviously classically derived - it does not sound like blues or RnB and does not sound like Punk or Hardcore etc. It has riveting rhythms, power chords often in a 'drop d' tuning that gives it much of it's dorian-dreadful sort of treading about sound. The vocals are almost operatic sometimes with thrilling displays of dynamic force and the technical side of metal guitar (which varies a lot) is some of the most velocity driven music this side of classical virtuosity that I know of - thinking of Malmsteen and Vedder, and others who have that tremendous technical skill - Liszt was a Romantic Metalist in his early years, I think. I only wish metal were a bit more harmonically exploratory - toward the Art Rock side in the direction of the original Alice in Chains, which always seemed to have a metal touch, and the very classical Radiohead (which is not a metal band and is hard to classify, but uses gorgeous harmonies). Just my opinion, however.



PeaceWalker said:


> I have been raised in a house where pianos and violins are played to no end, yet my brother and I later then discovered metal. We loved it, legends such as Metallica, Iron maiden, Slayer and Megadeth filled our teenage years. We still practice and listen to Classical works, but are still avid listeners to the metal scene.
> 
> My question is that is there anyone of you ever went from Classical to Metal? Do you think any of the metal stereotypes are true? do you think metal as a form of art toxic?
> 
> I myself rather think that metal educates, much like classical.


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## neoshredder (Nov 7, 2011)

Vinnie Moore and Tony MacAlpine were very Classical driven in the 80's. Definitely worth checking if you haven't already. I think early metal was influenced by blues. But people wanted more melodic metal. That is where the Classical part came in.


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## neoshredder (Nov 7, 2011)

Here you go. Some Tony MacAlpine. Tell me what you think.


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

I think it important to first point out the relativity of age and experience as related to perceptions and points of view. I am first hand familiar, for fifty years, with all the links posted below except the Rautavaara, which is a more recent piece. Familiar as in having listened to them many times, followed the scores, first hand read through the piano parts.

For anyone who is unfamiliar or unaware of the music in those links, Metal, and what it offers, can be an eye-popping revelation of what music can be, their wildest and most exciting musical experience to date. For me, the only innovation about Metal is that it is happening in the pop genre and that it is played on electric guitars. Even that does not impress or surprise, since popular music has, at least since the advent of ragtime, taken from developments in the classical realm 

For some, Metal can be the 'stepping stone' and stimulus toward listening to classical. Several of my (much younger) colleagues like metal: most of those did not start out in classical, and did like their rock 'n' roll before they ever 'got to' classical. Those already in classical were simultaneously in classical and teenagers when Metal made its first appearance.

Yes, the genre incorporates technical velocity, mixed meters, synthetic scales and a bag of tricks all first invented and used by early twentieth century classical composers (at least progressive metal does), though the use of those elements in classical is of a greater variety, used in a more pliable manner, and make for a range of expressiveness that I find lacking in the Metal (to be fair Metal is still Rock and 'does what it is supposed to do', i.e. be loud, rowdy, fundamental, and fast.)

[I wonder why metal fans seem to be looking for analogies or parallels to equate metal with classical, though. That (seemingly) hopeful comparison is made often enough by Metal fans, rarely by classical fans, as if being 'classical' was enough to legitimize something, or give it a higher stamp of approval.]

Sure, the supposed extra-normal 'complexity' (within the context of pop music) might inculcate in the listener a higher degree of intellectual concentration to follow the music, which could be a developmental step in preparation for 'how one listens to classical.'

When the degree of musicality, and true virtuosity (not just 'velocity' virtuosity) of Metal, or Progressive Metal come anywhere truly close to the following...

Stravinsky ~ Concerto for two pianos solo; i - Con Moto (technical milestone: the first formal use of metric modulation)




Einojuhani Rautavaara: Piano Concerto No. 1; i (Youtube link ad alert)




Prokofiev ~ Piano Concerto No. 3; iii




Bartok ~ Piano Concerto No. 1; iii




Ravel ~ Piano Concerto in G; iii -Presto





... I will be more convinced of a direct connectivity between the two. I think Metal shares but a few similar superficial traits (the velocity 'virtuosity.' mixed meters, synthetic scales) with some of the above without being at all directly related to classical: the superficial traits shared are traits which have been in classical music for about seventy years... Metal comes well after the fact and often uses those elements so much more simply.

If you learn of the Metal genre first, one might think... it was innovative. If you know the classical and modern classical rep first, then the Metal is not at all 'innovative' other than the fact it is happening, now, in a pop genre.

I'm not against it, and happy if it challenges a listener to concentrate on music in a way challenging to them, and especially happy if it makes them curious and hungry for music even more layered and nuanced, but I've found 'nothing there' in Metal which was not already present and challenging in the classical repertoire, the classical for mr being that much more satisfying -- because the classical was what I knew first.

I don't think one needs a pop 'stepping stone' to reach classical, (one can 'just plunge on in') but that rock / metal first then classical just happens that way for some. That some pop music has 'gotten more complex' is for me then, a technical footnote; otherwisem the Metal holds no real musical interest for me.


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## SpanishFly (Oct 13, 2012)

jani said:


> For those who didn't understand my joke, Al Gores wife was part of the parents group which sued bunch Metal bands/artists at the 80s.


Haha I understood this well. One of the most memorable court stand-offs in history: Tipper Gore vs. Dee Snider.


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## EbMajor (Oct 21, 2012)

Familiar theme?


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## adrver (Nov 5, 2012)

Schubussy said:


> Don't get me wrong, I do like metal. Just saying lots of death metal is very bland.


Some death metal is indeed bland, but I have found that lots of death metal bands are heavily inspired by classical music. Especially with bands that are usually defined as 'melodic' death metal, the link is very obvious. Take bands such as Children of Bodom for example. Their keyboardist is classically trained, and the other members are also very inspired by classical music. 
Examples: 
- Red Light In My Eyes pt. 1 - Bach's Invention no. 13
- Red Light In My Eyes pt. 2 - Mozart's 25th Symphony and "Confutatis" from his Requiem
- Summer, Presto - Vivaldi (cover)

And let's not forget the great Black Sabbath with their awesome song "Black Sabbath"
Holst anyone? (Geezer Buttler actually confirmed this)


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## NightHawk (Nov 3, 2011)

neoshredder said:


> Here you go. Some Tony MacAlpine. Tell me what you think.


The _tessitura_ of the melody is unsettling, so _mezzo_, and the timbre he dialed up sounds like a moderately tight rubber band with a vibraphone vibrato. However, the hymn, anthem, whatever grew on me as the melody rose and darkened a bit. I didn't like the funny oscillation of the major 3rd (the first three notes), but got used to it though it is an odd melody in a sing songy type of way. It made me think of a chorus number at the close of a B'way musical - everybody singing in unison and swaying. Definitely a closer.


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## RonP (Aug 31, 2012)

BANG YER HEAD !!!!!!!!!

(Bonus if you can name the song where that line originated).

I was more into metal before I went classical, but I'm more of the late 70's/early 80's New Wave of British Heavy Metal - Judas Priest, Ozzy, early Rainbow, Iron Maiden, Dio (okay, he was American, but had lots of British folks in his band). Deep Purple was (and still is) my favorite all-time band and many of its members had classical backgrounds, most notably Ritchie Blackmore and the late Jon Lord. Coincidentally, I was a huge Blackmore fan in my youth and he listed J.S. Bach as an inspiration; now I'm into Bach. Go figure.


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## neoshredder (Nov 7, 2011)

Metal Health


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## jani (Jun 15, 2012)

RonP said:


> BANG YER HEAD !!!!!!!!!
> 
> (Bonus if you can name the song where that line originated).
> 
> I was more into metal before I went classical, but I'm more of the late 70's/early 80's New Wave of British Heavy Metal - Judas Priest, Ozzy, early Rainbow, Iron Maiden, Dio (okay, he was American, but had lots of British folks in his band). Deep Purple was (and still is) my favorite all-time band and many of its members had classical backgrounds, most notably Ritchie Blackmore and the late Jon Lord. Coincidentally, I was a huge* Blackmore *fan in my youth and he listed J.S. Bach as an inspiration; now I'm into Bach. Go figure.


He owes lot of money for Beethoven.


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## Selby (Nov 17, 2012)

I think that some of the most interesting (new) music being made these days is metal. Check out Isis or Blut Aus Nord. You will not regret it.


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## regressivetransphobe (May 16, 2011)

UNFASHIONABLE HAIRY CAMPY METAL THAT ART STUDENTS DON'T LIKE FOR LIFE!!!i


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## Schubussy (Nov 2, 2012)

regressivetransphobe said:


>


I love the first Trouble album, doom is my favourite metal genre (followed by black metal, especially the more atmospheric side).


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