# Bach's "Enlightenment" vs Beethoven's "Drama"



## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

Which do you prefer, if you can see this categorization of the two composers?

I would like to say I lean towards Bach, but I'm a drama queen at heart and must choose Beethoven. I like very emotive music.


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

Sorry for the misspelling of enlightenment in the thread title.


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

I don't believe Bach had the talent for melody when compared to Beethoven. Not even Mozart.


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## joen_cph (Jan 17, 2010)

Sorry, I can't agree with the categorization in this case. It is normally Beethoven that is associated with the Enlightenment, and Bach not. Bach to my knowledge had no interest in Enlightenment ideas, and for example, he only knew German, with no interest say in the recent French schools, or any new philosophy or rationalism - just orthodox, religious literature.


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

joen_cph said:


> Sorry, I can't agree with the categorization in this case. It is normally Beethoven that is associated with the Enlightenment, and Bach not. Bach to my knowledge had no interest in Enlightenment ideas, and for example, he only knew German, with no interest say in the recent French schools, or any new philosophy or rationalism - just orthodox, religious literature.


I tend to base my opinions on music on how they sound rather than words. Bach sounds more at ease and enlightened whereas Beethoven sounds more dramatic.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

joen_cph said:


> Sorry, I can't agree with the categorization in this case. It is normally Beethoven that is associated with the Enlightenment, and Bach not. Bach to my knowledge had no interest in Enlightenment ideas, and for example,


But if we characterize this sort of stuff (which Bach was also into) as belonging in the Enlightenment, musically, 




wouldn't it be safe to assume he took some part in it, musically? (ie. the "poise and elegance" of the Goldberg variations, Italian concerto, for instance.)
The tradition of German-text cantatas might also be a precursor to:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deutsches_Hochamt#History
"The texts reflect the spirit of the Age of Enlightenment. They became common in Austria, also by Haydns settings."


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

hammeredklavier said:


> But if we characterize this sort of stuff (which Bach was also into) as belonging in the Enlightenment, musically,
> 
> 
> 
> ...


What fantastic music and a great video to go with it! I need to listen to more Vivaldi. I've also been preferring Haydn to Mozart lately.


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## Rogerx (Apr 27, 2018)

I am sorry but voted equal :angel:


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

Rogerx said:


> I am sorry but voted equal :angel:


That's what it's there for!


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Captainnumber36 said:


> I tend to base my opinions on music on how they sound rather than words. Bach sounds more at ease and enlightened whereas Beethoven sounds more dramatic.


Ah you mean enlightened as in "lighten up."


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

Mandryka said:


> Ah you mean enlightened as in "lighten up."


Indeed.......!


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

Bach for me, and it is not even close.


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## Animal the Drummer (Nov 14, 2015)

Art Rock said:


> Bach for me, and it is not even close.


Ditto - which is no criticism of Beethoven but, on the contrary, a measure of Bach's greatness


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## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

joen_cph said:


> Sorry, I can't agree with the categorization in this case. It is normally Beethoven that is associated with the Enlightenment, and Bach not. Bach to my knowledge had no interest in Enlightenment ideas, and for example, he only knew German, with no interest say in the recent French schools, or any new philosophy or rationalism - just orthodox, religious literature.


Yes, Bach was an orthodox Lutheran and we would not have found his positions "enlightened" at all. However, I am sure he knew Latin well (he needed to be able to give Latin lessons at the Thomasschule although he hired a substitute early on), and probably could read (and to some extent write/speak) French and Italian; his education at an elite school (although no university) would certainly have been far more thorough than e.g. Beethoven's.

Of course "enlightenment" is a vague and multifacetious term. Even in Beethoven's time obviously many, including Beethoven had been disappointed both by the radical turn of the French Revolution and then by the reactionary backlash after the Congress of Vienna but still supported broadly Republican ideas whereas some of the younger Romantics turned counter enlightenment and to idealizing the Middle Ages.


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## Waehnen (Oct 31, 2021)

In my mind Beethoven is the great explorer of the human spirit and it´s possibilities. Beethoven is deeply radical where Bach represents mastery in conservatism.


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## joen_cph (Jan 17, 2010)

Regarding Bach's conservative positions, I read some interesting details here in what seems to be an excellent book

https://publish.iupress.indiana.edu/read/bach-s-world/section/a4f59a9d-9596-4b65-8fbe-8f505e73cfd6
etc.
by Jan Chiapusso

including details about Bach's library preferences, numerous acquaintances, the ideological conflicts in his cultural environment, etc. As regards the French literary tradition as well as its newcomers, the author says that he seems to have been ignorant, hence my remark above.


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## Ethereality (Apr 6, 2019)

I prefer the trade-masters over the evolvers, because the evolvers aren't really trying for unpredictability, they're relying on their intuition to flow to a natural course. They're probably way more important and great, but less interesting.

Trade-masters: Bach, Brahms, John Williams
Evolvers: Beethoven, Schubert, Wagner


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## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

One has to keep in mind that these French guys were a specific, radical avantgarde. While it was a different world (and Bach could have met some at Frederick's court in Potsdam), it's a bit like we would not necessarily expect a mid-20th century professor of composition (despite all his supreme learning in his field) to be familiar with the writings of Wittgenstein or Sartre (and Bach wasn't even an academic).

As for Bach's knowledge of French, I don't know how much conversational French he might have learned in school or picked up/used at his Court position; French being the lingua franca and often court language in most of 18th century Europe it's hard to believe that he would not have been able at least to keep up some conversation (supposedly King Frederick spoke French better than German) or read a newspaper, but of course this is not quite the level of reading advanced books and he would not have been interested anyway.


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## joen_cph (Jan 17, 2010)

Rousseau and Voltaire were for example the talk of the day (and in that sense not really radicals, 
though especially Rousseau had some pretty peculiar tendencies), but mostly after Bach's lifetime.


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## BrahmsWasAGreatMelodist (Jan 13, 2019)

Mozart > Bach >> Beethoven. But the categorization makes no sense.


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