# RAP could be way more, but isn't



## Amadea (Apr 15, 2021)

Rap could be way more "artistic" and developed, but isn't. It is very bland, at least the mainstream one. Ok, so, to clear things up: I do not hate rap, yet I'm not the biggest fan of it, I'm no expert. BUT I have tried to get it and I actually liked some artists such as Death Grips and Noname for a couple years. I have problems with rap though. I have noticed some things: 

1) The biggest experimentalists are indie and underground who almost never get famous (obvious).
2) I believe the producers are ruining everything (yes, included Kanye West, the so called genius).
3) Many rap/hip-hop artists do not really research deep and try to develop the genre. It seems, in other words, there's not so much artistic intention as some want media to believe in recent years.
4) Today's popular "rap and hip-hop songs" are more like pop mixed with some rap.

I see artists like Damon Albarn taking his *** to Africa every time he can to talk and play with africans, to improve his musical abilities and understanding of rhythm, while people like Kanye West take credit for basically making a rap which is better for the taste of bourgeois and nothing more artistic than that. Rap could be much more ambitious. It is based on rhythm, but I do not see any research on that field by the most popular artists, which are regarded as geniuses of the genre though. They talk about "innovative beats" when even a child could write them, famous rappers who are less skilled than the "street ones", who cannot write good rhymes nor want to improve in that field, who do not want to express else than the usual themes. If these "artists" went to Africa (or even just hear african music or even just american jazz, my god), they would feel ashamed of their own knowledge of rhythm. They call this the "producer era", as if the producers are really that developed artistically and are pushing the genre further. But it's all a scam. If Kanye West is a genial producer, then what is Briano Eno? A god? Not to mention all the other producers. Just look at Death Grips inventiveness in sampling to see just how bland are people like Kanye West. Or look at the flow of Noname to see how the most famous rappers are not so worth the praise. Why do rap and hip-hop fans keep lying at themselves saying this and that famous artists are innovative geniuses while they're doing nothing but packing a bland song with bland lyrics and bland beats in a fancy package made of catchy samples and pop-style production disguised as artistic? In other words, just a fancy money machine? And I didn't even mention trap...


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## fbjim (Mar 8, 2021)

the roots of hip-hop are the same DJ-descended scene that ended up producing modern dance music. a lot of it *is* dance music- which, by its nature, tends to be static and sustained. there are very good practical reasons you don't want to suddenly include complex rhythmic shifts and changes in music which is intended for dance, and historically that's the scene which hip-hop sprung from. 

as with a lot of "static" music, the appeal of beats (both in rap and dance music) is less about rhythmic complexity and more about sustained mood and atmosphere over a period of time.

e) this is of course kind of gliding past the more obvious point that- like popular music, a big appeal of rap is lyrical, and not specifically based on rhythmic/"musical" complexity or development. this doesn't preclude it from having interesting beats, and a ton of it does- but it's the same reason you won't find the kinds of development and musical invention you'd get from a piano sonata in, say, lieder.


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## Amadea (Apr 15, 2021)

fbjim said:


> the appeal of beats (both in rap and dance music) is less about rhythmic complexity and more about sustained mood and atmosphere over a period of time.


Then, it can't be that much artistical (in mainstream), right? Then my question is: why people keep saying idiot things about Kanye West or Kendrick Lamar or whoever being these great artistical geniuses they aren't? It means it's only hype and delusions. I do get I can't expect the same development of a sonata, of course. But for example, I like punk which is in a way similar and has its limits: simple, not melodic, mainly talking, and yet there are bands like Fugazi who did absurd things like in this album: 



 but this doesn't happen with rap, or if it happens rarely and not on a mainstream level (eg Death Grips can use beautiful rhythms, not even sampled drums, they're real). My point is, it could be more than static music if they wanted to. You said the big appeal is lyrical. I don't see it. Not in the most popular ones. If I were a rapper, the first thing I'd do is learn how to write good lyrics and improve rhymes, but that doesn't happen. It seems to me, all rappers care is having a good or original flow (at times, not even that).


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## fbjim (Mar 8, 2021)

If you reach the points where you start to reject the artistic/aesthetic framework of the genre itself, it might just mean the genre (at least the mainstream genre) isn't something you enjoy, which is fine.


I'm not really an expert on underground/independent hip-hop, but hopefully someone here can recommend some things you might like.

One solid rule I usually have with music criticism is that it generally isn't valid to criticize art for not being something else instead- ie it would be silly to try to critique a death metal album on the basis of not liking distorted guitar tone and growly lyrics and asking why it can't be more like folk or something. At some point there are artistic tenets to a genre that you might just dislike.


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## pianozach (May 21, 2018)

Maybe I'm just an old suspenders-wearing crank, but it seems to me that without the wide variety of backing tracks, the raps would all sound suspiciously similar. 

There's as many techno-engineers sampling and creating these diverse grooves, and THAT is what makes a Rap Song marketable.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

*The first RAP song was awesome*, then it went downhill from there.


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## Amadea (Apr 15, 2021)

fbjim said:


> If you reach the points where you start to reject the artistic/aesthetic framework of the genre itself, it might just mean the genre (at least the mainstream genre) isn't something you enjoy, which is fine.
> 
> I'm not really an expert on underground/independent hip-hop, but hopefully someone here can recommend some things you might like.
> 
> One solid rule I usually have with music criticism is that it generally isn't valid to criticize art for not being something else instead- ie it would be silly to try to critique a death metal album on the basis of not liking distorted guitar tone and growly lyrics and asking why it can't be more like folk or something. At some point there are artistic tenets to a genre that you might just dislike.


Yeah, I know some underground things that I like, I quoted some, but I'm disappointed because they're like 4 cats in a huge ocean of bland ones. The idea of a genre based on words and rhythm is brilliant but totally wasted. I found an italian artists years ago that teaches literature that writes beautiful poetic texts and has strong lyrical aspirations, but he's pretty much the only one I know that reaches those levels. Even Tupac was not that developed in my opinion.


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## Amadea (Apr 15, 2021)

SixFootScowl said:


> *The first RAP song was awesome*, then it went downhill from there.


Yeah, I'm a huge fan of this "rapper"


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## Bwv 1080 (Dec 31, 2018)

Musically, if you like funk you should like Hip Hop. There are some Jazz artists who have done interesting things


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## pianozach (May 21, 2018)

............................................


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## Amadea (Apr 15, 2021)

pianozach said:


> ............................................


I do not like this. Since someone has already read it, take responsibilities of what you've said and say it to the others too.


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## pianozach (May 21, 2018)

Amadea said:


> I do not like this. Since someone has already read it, take responsibilities of what you've said and say it to the others too.


My apologies.

I had posted it in the wrong thread. It was a video link to Meshell Ndgeocello.

I had merely moved it HERE instead:

https://www.talkclassical.com/70739-rap-hip-hop-neo-5.html#post2062370


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## regenmusic (Oct 23, 2014)

Beautiful Eulogy - Symbols And Signs

I like this song, seems like "rap". I hate violence and materialism in music and a lot of rap seems to cater to that. What is that saying about violence shows the lack of imagination and intelligence.

Henry Cow also had some lines in "War" that are similar:

Upon her spoon this motto
Wonderfully designed
"Violence completes the partial mind"


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## Red Terror (Dec 10, 2018)

Meh.
**********


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## Amadea (Apr 15, 2021)

regenmusic said:


> Beautiful Eulogy - Symbols And Signs
> 
> I like this song, seems like "rap". I hate violence and materialism in music and a lot of rap seems to cater to that. What is that saying about violence shows the lack of imagination and intelligence.
> 
> ...


I think it really depends on the artist and time. I would agree with you but just for today's rap/trap, which is mostly done by people who know nothing of the "street life" and glorify that type of life. But when rap was born, it talked about violence because that was what the rappers had known, it talked about the problems black people were living. Not all today's rap is about violence, but I do agree there is lack of imagination and creativity, at least in the "mainstream" side. A lot is put into production, but mainly for marketing reasons. As I said, a genre based on words and rhythm has so much potential, but that potential is being totally wasted. Expecially considering the great potential of african rhythms.


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## regenmusic (Oct 23, 2014)

Red Terror said:


> Meh.
> **********


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## Flamme (Dec 30, 2012)

Rap was cool untile it become sterile and PC, in 80s and 90s and especially today...Im still yet to hear a song that challenges the sttus quo...Coming from someone who listened rap in his teens and even today enjoy some old bands...Rap/hip-hop/crossover were the best when ''they was'' not political or criminal at all or when it parodized all those thuings...One of my fav bands...


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