# Contemporary Music Discussion: Spectralism



## aleazk (Sep 30, 2011)

Disclaimer: this is a thread for serious discussion of contemporary music. Comments related to how bad you think contemporary music is will be considered off topic and informed to the moderators.

In the 20th century, we witnessed how each of the classical conceptions on music were analysed with a critical eye. Traditional conceptions of melody, harmony, and form were reinvented or replaced.

But, despite all these changes, in the 50's a key conception of western classical music was alive like never before.
What was this conception?: a way of thinking about the role of sound in music.
In this conception there's an identification: sound=pitch (of course, I'm exaggerating a little in order to make the point)

Harmony consists in a set of rules for organizing these building blocks, pitch.
For example, we have an ordered set of twelve different notes, {Pi}, then the twelve tone method tells you how you can combine these notes in order to produce music. The key here is that these notes are thought as some kind of absolute entities; once we consider the concept abstractly, some of its other properties (like timbre) are discarded. There's an idealization of sound as pitch, and of music as the art of organizing pitches, i.e., given these fundamental pitches (the chromatic scale), music is like the study of the combinatorial properties of this set.

The chromatic scale is an ideal thing, which is realized in different instruments.
This is a very mathematical (and western) way of thinking. For example, in mathematics you can define the concept of a vector space as an abstract set equiped with certain rules which tell you how to add two elements and how to multiply them by a scalar. You don't care very much for the nature of the elements of the set; if they satisfy the axioms of the definition of a vector space, then you can apply the theorems of vector spaces to the set. Vector spaces can be realized in very different ways, as a set of n-tuples of numbers, as a set of matrices, as a set of functions, and even as a set of differential operators. I hope you can see the analogy with music working here.

In spectralism this notion is completely abandoned in favor of taking sound (in all of its complexity) as the building block and music as the art of manipulating sound. In this way, timbre takes a prominent role here. The chromatic scale is abandoned, the variable is now the frequency of the sound wave and its range is a continuum.

The key aspect to appreciate in this music is the final texture of the sound, which is often very complex. And also the way in which this texture evolves in time.

According to Tristan Murail, "music is ultimately sound evolving in time". In this interview Grisey gives interesting insights http://www.angelfire.com/music2/davi...er/grisey.html.
Historically, in the origins of spectralism is the music Ligeti composed in the 60's (Atmospheres, Lontano, etc.), pieces composed as a response to serialism and in which we can see some these new ideas about the role of sound in music.

In the 70's, all this was taken to an extreme level of sophistication when composers at IRCAM started to use tools from physics (like Fourier analysis) in order to study sound with a scientific precision, in order to use its properties in a more informed, and then effective, way.

Examples:

-Very early precursors:

Composers of the Second Viennese School paid special attention to timbre. Also the Impressionists. Varese's new conceptions of the role of sound.

Schoenberg - Farben (#3 of Five Pieces for Orchestra, also called "Summer Morning by a Lake: Chord Colours"; 1908): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zpze1UEF30c#t=101

-The birth of modern spectralism - proto spectralism:

Ligeti - Atmosphères: 




Ligeti - Lontano: 




-Spectralism:

Nørgård - Voyage into the Golden Screen: 




Grisey - Partiels: 




Grisey - Vortex Temporum: 




Murail - Gondwana: 




Murail - Bois flotté: 




Haas- In Vain: 




Horatiu Radulescu - Khufu's Serpent IV for ensemble: 




-Spectralism today:

Haas - limited approximations (2010): 




Murail - Les Sept Paroles (2010): 




Also of interest (timbre and rhythm):

Ligeti - violin concerto: 




Furrer - piano concerto: 




Fell free to make any contribution, and particularly to introduce any other composer of this style.


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## Guest (Jan 6, 2014)

Not sure about the style part.

The Romanian spectralists, who are the ones I know well, sound nothing like the French spectralists.

Ana-Maria Avram and Iancu Dumitrescu and their circle.

Not sure why, because the Romanians are coming out of an acousmatic tradition, and acousmatic is about as French as you can get.

Not that I'm complaining, you understand. Variety is good. More variety is even gooder.


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## aleazk (Sep 30, 2011)

some guy said:


> Not sure about the style part.
> 
> The Romanian spectralists, who are the ones I know well, sound nothing like the French spectralists.
> 
> ...


Yes, the Romanian spectralists consider their style as different, a variant I think, and indeed sounds different (also, Dumitrescu makes a heavy use of electronics, even pure electronic-tape pieces, while in the Frech is more "moderate" to purely acoustic, at least in Murail, Grisey and Haas) . My intention was to make just a very general explanation of what I think was an important aspect.
The samples, yes, are shamefully partial to the acoustic side.
Also, I'm not very familiar with modern Romanian spectralism. They are not acousmatic?. 
I have only listened to a couple of pieces: 



, for example. I would say the French tend to be more "smooth" in their textures.


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## joen_cph (Jan 17, 2010)

Also: *Hugues Dufourt*; some say that he´s the creator of the term
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spectral_music

some fascinating titles in his ensemble works

"_L´Afrique d´Apres Tiepolo_" (2005) 



and
"_L´Asie d´Apres Tiepolo_" (2009) 



 and

I own a good deal of the works on the list; based on quite superficial listening, my favourite works from these composers are

Murail:"_L´Esprit des Dunes_" (highly recommended, a very cinematic piece) 




Furrer:"_Piano Concerto_" (but I do think he´s a bit too repetitive)

People have mentioned Haas more here recently, unknown to me, will try to catch up.


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## ahammel (Oct 10, 2012)

some guy said:


> Not sure about the style part.


I believe Murail has made comments to the effect that spectralism is less a style than an aesthetic.

I quite like Murail, but I haven't explored any of the others to any extent. Thanks for the reccos!

Is this going to be part of a series of 20th century music discussions? (Yes, please!)


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## Guest (Jan 6, 2014)

Probably why I prefer the Romanians, rougher textures.

Yeah. I've never been able to articulate that before. So thanks!:tiphat:


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## Weston (Jul 11, 2008)

I'm only familiar with Ligeti and some Grisey. As I enjoy them without fully understanding why yet, I greatly appreciate the lists above.


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## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

Spectralism seems to me a very fascinating new way to hear music. Since the 80s, from my limited knowledge, composers have taken this basic idea in different directions; some have been interested in integrating parts of the "sound" of spectral music into more traditional narratives, while others want to expand the timbral palette of music even more.

My ears are still primarily attuned to the 12-note chromatic scale, so music involving lots of microtonal inflections takes some getting used to. I enjoy Ligeti and his students' work quite a bit, and I've appreciated examples posted here and elsewhere by Grisey, Furrer, etc. I'm looking forward to an interesting discussion here.


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## StlukesguildOhio (Dec 25, 2006)

I quite like Murail's work... or that of his work with which I am familiar... Grisey a bit less. Other composers that I am fond of who also strike me as having links to "Spectralism" include Takemitsu, Giacinto Scelsi, Ligeti, and Messiaen (proto-Spectralism?) as well as Kaija Saariaho, Jonathan Harvey, and Julian Anderson. I also think of Pascal Dusapin (his opera, _Perelà, uomo di fumo_).

And what of Erkki-Sven Tüür?


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## Jobis (Jun 13, 2013)

How can spectral music be written for instruments with fixed chromatic pitches? With the brass or woodwinds, for example, can microtones be played?


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## ahammel (Oct 10, 2012)

Jobis said:


> How can spectral music be written for instruments with fixed chromatic pitches? With the brass or woodwinds, for example, can microtones be played?


You can certainly play quarter-tones on a flute, at least (Takemitsu calls for them pretty frequently). You can probably do the same with brass using hand-stopping and the like.

I've never heard any spectral music for piano (I'll check out the concerto suggested above). Not sure if the alternate tuning is usually called for, or if the composer just deals with it and adds microtonality elsewhere.


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## DrKilroy (Sep 29, 2012)

A quarter tone oboe:










I guess that, on wind instruments, microtones can be played using embouchure manipulation.

Spectral music is very interesting, but it seems that you have to know a great deal of acoustics knowledge to compose a good piece!

Best regards, Dr


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## Blake (Nov 6, 2013)

Really great stuff in here. I've become quite fond of this style. Grisey, Murail, Harvey are the ones I'm most familiar with. I'd put Takemitsu in there too with his impressionistic-spectralistic, beautiful way of composing.


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## quack (Oct 13, 2011)

ahammel said:


> You can certainly play quarter-tones on a flute, at least (Takemitsu calls for them pretty frequently). You can probably do the same with brass using hand-stopping and the like.
> 
> I've never heard any spectral music for piano (I'll check out the concerto suggested above). Not sure if the alternate tuning is usually called for, or if the composer just deals with it and adds microtonality elsewhere.


Marilyn Nonken has released a CD of spectral piano music of Dufourt and Fineberg http://thetheatrebar.com/2013/09/04/upcoming-cd-release-party-for-voix-voilees/ You can hear a short sample of the Fineberg at the bottom of that entry. To my untrained ear doesn't sound like any special tuning is going on. She also has a book out in March _The Spectral Piano: From Liszt, Scriabin, and Debussy to the Digital Age_. Would be interesting to see how she connects those names into the later developments.


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## dgee (Sep 26, 2013)

Mictrotones through alternative fingering on winds and brass, peeps. I've seen some microtonal fingering charts that would blow your mind (not looking at anyone in particular, bassoon) - and lots are online if you wish to check em out

I like the "spectralism as an aesthetic" concept rather than as a defined style - otherwise it's a bit reductive. Additional ups for Julian Anderson and Giacinto Scelsi who are quite different but demonstrate spectral characteristics. Scelsi's small ensemble pieces - string duos and trios spring to mind - are intersting examples of how the spectral aesthetic can work in lighter textures. Julian Anderson has some rip-roaring orchestral stuff.


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## Blake (Nov 6, 2013)

Yes, Scelsi is superb as well. I need to go check out some Anderson.


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## aleazk (Sep 30, 2011)

ahammel said:


> Is this going to be part of a series of 20th century music discussions? (Yes, please!)


Yes, that's the idea. And even better, other members can write some of the other chapters. That would be great, since all the knowledge is not in one single person!.


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## dgee (Sep 26, 2013)

Vesuvius said:


> Yes, Scelsi is superb as well. I need to go check out some Anderson.


I'll once again tout Anderson's Imagin'd Corners for five horns and orchestra as one of the most immediately exciting recent works I've heard


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## aleazk (Sep 30, 2011)

Jobis said:


> How can spectral music be written for instruments with fixed chromatic pitches? With the brass or woodwinds, for example, can microtones be played?


One option is to use the uncorrected overtones of natural horns (some of the higher overtones are microtonal): 




In the woodwinds there are special fingerings, or with the lips.


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## aleazk (Sep 30, 2011)

ahammel said:


> I've never heard any spectral music for piano (I'll check out the concerto suggested above). Not sure if the alternate tuning is usually called for, or if the composer just deals with it and adds microtonality elsewhere.


Check the Haas piece, "limited approximations", for six microtonally tuned pianos and orchestra (it's one of my favorites).


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## Jobis (Jun 13, 2013)

dgee said:


> Mictrotones through alternative fingering on winds and brass, peeps. I've seen some microtonal fingering charts that would blow your mind (not looking at anyone in particular, bassoon) - and lots are online if you wish to check em out
> 
> I like the "spectralism as an aesthetic" concept rather than as a defined style - otherwise it's a bit reductive. Additional ups for Julian Anderson and Giacinto Scelsi who are quite different but demonstrate spectral characteristics. Scelsi's small ensemble pieces - string duos and trios spring to mind - are intersting examples of how the spectral aesthetic can work in lighter textures. Julian Anderson has some rip-roaring orchestral stuff.


Thanks, I had no idea, this is really interesting!

for flute : http://www.sfz.se/flutetech/06.htm


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## arpeggio (Oct 4, 2012)

*Clarinet?*



DrKilroy said:


> A quarter tone oboe:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


From the mouthpiece it looks like a clarinet.


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## DrKilroy (Sep 29, 2012)

Sure, that's a clarinet! My mistake! :tiphat:

Best regards, Dr


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

"Voyage into the Golden Screen" was one of my first forays into spectralism. It was introduced to me by my composition teacher, he brought in the score and we listened to it. My interest in timbre has sparked my love with this style, I've always had a habit when listening to music to pay attention to the tone colours and orchestration foremost, with other elements of music not really sinking in as much. 

My actual introduction to spectralism came about when reading liner notes of a CD of music by Hugues Dufourt, who coined the term "spectralism" to apply to music. Since then I discovered Grisey and Haas and Murail (I think Murail has actually written a guitar piece, I need to hunt that down so I can play it) and my absolute favourite spectral piece is "Mortuous Plango, Vivos Voco" by Jonathan Harvey. 

I'm still skimming the surface when it comes to this style, however, still exploring. My thanks to Aleazk to bringing the topic up and supplying terrific info on music. I'll listen to the links in the OP.


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## ahammel (Oct 10, 2012)

aleazk said:


> Check the Haas piece, "limited approximations", for six microtonally tuned pianos and orchestra (it's one of my favorites).


That's a genuine doozy, and no mistake. The bit for the solo pianos in the middle-the candenza, I guess?-is fantastic: it starts to sound like the chromatic scale for a second and then everything just melts.

I'm always amused at how some time around 1905 composers discovered that they can call for whatever ridiculous combination of instruments they like and-if it's good enough-somebody will find a way to put it on.


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

ahammel said:


> I believe Murail has made comments to the effect that spectralism is less a style than an aesthetic.
> 
> I quite like Murail, but I haven't explored any of the others to any extent. Thanks for the reccos!
> 
> Is this going to be part of a series of 20th century music discussions? (Yes, please!)


It was not a matter for me of being initially blown away as much as nearly falling immediately in love with (Haas') _In Vain,_ find it "simply gorgeous."





I see you've already checked out his many times recommended _Limited Approximations_


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## ArtMusic (Jan 5, 2013)

This piece starts off sounding like a very dramatic scene from some thriller movie. I like that association or at least how the movies have used similar sounds, if not the exact piece.


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

Jobis said:


> How can spectral music be written for instruments with fixed chromatic pitches? With the brass or woodwinds, for example, can microtones be played?


Embouchure control... just remind yourself of that terrific clarinet glissando that opens Gershwin's Rhapsody in Blue... that can be controlled, either pitches bent, or with diligent practice, honed down to 'nailing' a quarter tone accurately.

String players of course, also with the aid and use of their ears, learn where those smaller increments are in relation to their already habitual knowledge of positions on the fingerboard of their instrument.

For the quarter tone singing of the choir in Ligeti's Requiem, two choirs (or the full choir divided into halves) are used, both singing in whole and half steps, but 'tuned' a quarter-tone apart.


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## ArtMusic (Jan 5, 2013)

Is this spectralism or it is actually not?


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

Spectralism came about from studies of instrument sounds at IRCAM, in an attempt to re-create (synthesize) these natural instruments' characteristic attack, delay, and decay characteristics, as well as create the differences which occur with changes of register. The advent of digital sampling almost rendered this endeavor meaningless, as it probably still is to most rappers who use samplers, but die-hard purists like Wendy Carlos still persisted in creating their own sound-replicas from the ground up, as witnessed in Digital Moonscapes and Beauty In the Beast.

Syntax aside, what was accomplished, and how has it been used? What is the purpose of exploring the intricacies of the harmonics of single notes, which balance creates what we know as "timbre?" Certainly, the Spectralist agenda differs from the agenda of DJ Shadow and other rap and "loop" music creators.

Unlike tonal music, Spectralism ascribes no horizontal function to sound; it is purely visceral, purely vertical. It has had to leave the confines of the 12-note scale as well, in order to seek its higher destiny in the upper harmonic regions of single fundamental notes, eternal "1" references, unto themselves, which generate the individual, distinct "spectrums" of harmonic we recognize as "timbres." When composed of odd-number harmonics, the spectra becomes bell-like; when absent, the spectra becomes more flute-like; with square-waves, clarinets are evoked, and with sawtooth waves, violins emerge. Electronic/computer synthesis, coupled with computer analysis. has allowed us these insights.

Now, it seems the Spectralist agenda is one of art, as opposed to mere replication of sounds; sampling can do that, now. Now, we are left with the knowledge of these spectra, and the goal now is to create new sounds based on new combinations, either by synthesis or by natural instruments, albeit altered, in order to recreate the untempered frequencies which are needed.

Piano can be used to suggest such strange spectra, even though it is confined to the chromatic scale. But I've heard Tritan Murail, in his piano music, use the piano very convincingly. After all, the wound steel coils we call "piano strings" are really halfway between a true gut string and a metal bar, as any piano tuner can tell you. Pianos must be "stretch-tuned" to compensate for the gradually rising-in-pitch, out-of-tune higher harmonic which arise when its metallic, bright strings are struck by the hammers. Inherently, the modern piano is quite a spectral creature by nature. After hearing Marc Hamelin's playing of Charles Ives' Concord Sonata, one is tempted to cite Ives as being a spectralist, such was his love for dissonance and strange harmonic-overtone effects. Debussy is also an obvious progenitor of Spectralism.


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## Pennypacker (Jul 30, 2013)

The second movement of Nørgård's "Voyage into the Golden Screen" really blew my mind, both musically and mathematically. So beautiful. Murail's "Gondwana" was amazing as well. 

Thank you so much for this thread!


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## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

Yeah, thanks for this thread also. I've just discovered Grisey. I'll be on another journey as soon as I get off my Haydn piano sonata kick.


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## ArtMusic (Jan 5, 2013)

millionrainbows said:


> ... *Debussy* is also an obvious progenitor of Spectralism.


That's interesting. Can you recommend/suggest which pieces? I would like to listen. Thank you.


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## Blake (Nov 6, 2013)

PetrB said:


> It was not a matter for me of being initially blown away as much as nearly falling immediately in love with (Haas') _In Vain,_ find it "simply gorgeous."
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Indeed, this is exceptional. I don't see any spot for him in the composers' guestbook. I might have to do that. He's another great one.


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## dgee (Sep 26, 2013)

ArtMusic said:


> That's interesting. Can you recommend/suggest which pieces? I would like to listen. Thank you.


Preludes Book 2 and Jeux seem proto-spectral to me


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

Well, Debussy was around when the equal-tempered tuning system had almost been perfected (this happened in 1919 with the publication of White's _Industrial Arts_ book, after electronic tuning was possible). The whole-tone scale, with its equally-spaced notes, sounded very shimmering in this newly perfected ET tuning. Debussy worked with the piano as a sound-source unto itself, like Murail; writing on the piano rather than for the piano. In other words, he was interested in sound itself, rather than sound as a filter for some sort of musical rhetoric, theoretical statement, or narrative. Like an abstract painter, he became more interested in the paint (color, texture, tint, contrast) than the depiction. The sound is no longer a medium for some other rhetorical or narrative aspect of music; the sound is accepted and used as the medium unto itself. This is like electronic music, and, indeed, many of the spectralists had IRCAM backgrounds.


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## aleazk (Sep 30, 2011)

Vesuvius said:


> Indeed, this is exceptional. I don't see any spot for him in the composers' guestbook. I might have to do that. He's another great one.


I made some threads there about Grisey and Haas in the past.


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## Blake (Nov 6, 2013)

aleazk said:


> I made some threads there about Grisey and Haas in the past.


I see that now. It didn't come up on my original search. I guess we have to deal with two now.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

Some of Grisey's work is rather dark. Artistically, I see Spectralism as being an extension of the French art aesthetic. I'm thinking of Surrealism, Mallarme, Rimbaud, Verlaine, and such.


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## aleazk (Sep 30, 2011)

millionrainbows said:


> Some of Grisey's work is rather dark. Artistically, I see Spectralism as being an extension of the French art aesthetic. I'm thinking of Surrealism, Mallarme, Rimbaud, Verlaine, and such.


Indeed. Haas is rather dark too. 
And also remember that Fourier was French!.


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## ahammel (Oct 10, 2012)

aleazk said:


> Indeed. Haas is rather dark too.


One review of his most recent opera complained that it "comes dangerously close to a kind of palliative care ward tourism." Ouch!


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

ahammel said:


> One review of his most recent opera complained that it "comes dangerously close to a kind of palliative care ward tourism." Ouch!


Yet another critic-journalist's bid for being at least remembered for penning a pithy phrase... 
 + Yawn.


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## ahammel (Oct 10, 2012)

PetrB said:


> Yet another critic-journalist's bid for being at least remembered for penning a pithy phrase...
> + Yawn.


Well, I haven't seen it. Maybe the criticism is justified.

So, yeah, Haas is dark. Murail strikes me as the most upbeat of the spectralists that I've heard. He has a playful air to a lot of his music. And he wrote an electric guitar solo and called it _Vampyr!_, which sort of suggests the presence of a sense of humour.


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## Wood (Feb 21, 2013)

Great thread, that I missed first time around.

Bump!


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## TradeMark (Mar 12, 2015)

Reviving this thread out of curiosity for this style of music.

I'm listening to Has's In Vain right now and its amazing. I can only describe it as a "sound world". I want to call it impressionist because it gives me images of fireworks, bombs, missiles, jets, trains, etc.


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## Blancrocher (Jul 6, 2013)

TradeMark said:


> Reviving this thread out of curiosity for this style of music.
> 
> I'm listening to Has's In Vain right now and its amazing. I can only describe it as a "sound world". I want to call it impressionist because it gives me images of fireworks, bombs, missiles, jets, trains, etc.


You may find this video of a live performance interesting:






As in other pieces of his, Haas has instructions about lighting in the concert hall, which are observed in this performance. I'd like the opportunity to experience more of this composer's music live.


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## Albert7 (Nov 16, 2014)

I am rather curious... are spectralist composers the postmodern heirs of imagism to Debussy and Ravel... where colors punctuate all that they compose? Sound worlds aglore.


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## science (Oct 14, 2010)

dgee said:


> Mictrotones through alternative fingering on winds and brass, peeps. I've seen some microtonal fingering charts that would blow your mind (not looking at anyone in particular, bassoon) - and lots are online if you wish to check em out
> 
> I like the "spectralism as an aesthetic" concept rather than as a defined style - otherwise it's a bit reductive. Additional ups for Julian Anderson and Giacinto Scelsi who are quite different but demonstrate spectral characteristics. Scelsi's small ensemble pieces - string duos and trios spring to mind - are intersting examples of how the spectral aesthetic can work in lighter textures. Julian Anderson has some rip-roaring orchestral stuff.


Under what "ism" would Scelsi be ordinary classified? I don't think I've heard his music classified as spectralism, but that only raises the question.


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