# how come i love vocal music but have a hard time appreciating opera



## deprofundis (Apr 25, 2014)

I love vocal music of rennaissance motets madrigals, but i have somesort of hidden aversion for opera?

I dont understand, opera should be a logical next step yet im not ready or i dont get it...
Than my father said opera was more sophisticated than madrigals or motets, he like it better.

What about you guys are you in the same situation i am, you like some vocal but have a hard time
whit opera?

All do i got to admit Bartok's bluebeard castle seem interresting


:tiphat:


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## isorhythm (Jan 2, 2015)

Try Monteverdi's _L'Orfeo_ and go from there.


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

4:40 in the video

"...I still didn't get operas themselves, because we kept listening to them, we didn't go to see them. And I realized that opera is theater music and it's only a part of a bigger picture, it's meant to be staged, it's meant to be experienced with live staging and scenery and costumes... there are very few operas that work entirely just listening to the music" etc

and this is the opinion of a successful opera composer. I completely agree with him.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

deprofundis said:


> I love vocal music of rennaissance motets madrigals, but i have somesort of hidden aversion for opera?
> 
> I dont understand, opera should be a logical next step yet im not ready or i dont get it...
> Than my father said opera was more sophisticated than madrigals or motets, he like it better.
> ...


I started with Handel's Messiah and Beethoven's Ninth for vocal music, then got into a lot of Vivaldi vocal works. Eventually, my liking of Beethoven led me to his one opera, Fidelio. Now I have several dozen operas. There may be operas in the earlier era of the vocal music you like. Whether such operas would be more accessible to you, I don't know because I am not familiar with that era's music.

I will recommend that to get into opera you need to start with a DVD so you can experience it visually as well, and with English subtitles so you can follow/understand. Also I feel it is good to read a synopsis first so you have an idea of the story ahead of time.

I can't think of a better starting point than Beethoven's Fidelio, the one with Bernstein conducting and staring Janowitz as Leonore.

Just the 2 cents of a novice who has really gotten into opera in the past couple years.


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## calvinpv (Apr 20, 2015)

I also have a similar problem (with the exception of Monteverdi's L'Orfeo, which is magnificent). I think it's because with vocal music, the music is short enough where we can tell ourselves that the text must be unimportant and to just appreciate the music. 

With opera, however, the distinction between the primacy of music and the non-primacy of the sung text becomes more blurred: are we dealing with music that's dependent upon and reflects the progression of a narrative, or are we dealing with a theatrical play that merely gets enhanced by music? In either case, understanding the libretto is necessary, and if you don't know French, German, or Italian (the most common languages in opera) then opera has a steeper curve in terms of appreciation. Of course, I don't mean to suggest learning a 2nd language is the only way to enjoy opera (I'm sure there are many on this site who can only speak English yet find opera the greatest subgenre of classical music); I'm just giving a possible explanation for those who don't enjoy it (including me).

I'd follow isorhythm's suggestion and listen to L'Orfeo. I don't know Italian, so I can't follow the libretto, but I find the music so memorable that I don't feel guilty remaining in ignorance as to what is sung.


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## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

deprofundis said:


> What about you guys are you in the same situation i am, you like some vocal but have a hard time
> whit opera?


Same situation. I have tons of vocal music, but opera hasn't stuck.

And I really tried to get into opera. I spent a couple years in a grand effort. But it's too much trouble trying to follow the plot while staring at the words, and usually the plot isn't something I can relate to or care a lot about. I'd usually think, "Just say it and get it over with."

But some do hold my attention, like the Magic Flute and Don Giovanni. And I seem to like the darker operas, like Wozzeck and Die Ferne Klange.

Have you seen Bergman's film on the Magic Flute? I think it made some cuts, but still, I found that interesting.


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## Ingélou (Feb 10, 2013)

I like plays and I like opera. Maybe for you, if you like Renaissance motets, it's the fact that the big operas are nineteenth century music that gets in the way? Try something short and earlyish, like Purcell's _*Dido & Aeneas*_?

I don't know enough about baroque operas, but the ones I've seen I've liked: as well as *Dido*, that means Handel's _*Agrippina*_ & Lully's *Cadmus et Hermion*e.


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## k1hodgman (Sep 8, 2015)

Opera is polarizing; from the voices, the increased size of the Orchestra, to the bombasity of the compositions themselves. 
[Obviously not all Operas, but a fair few.] It can be overwhelming in comparison to let's say, Lieder (or Art Songs in general) or Motet's.

If you don't like Opera, you don't like Opera. It's a polarizing Art form. It's not more "sophisticated" (whatever _that_ means...), it just *is*. Don't worry about it.


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## Weston (Jul 11, 2008)

I have a little trouble with opera too, but I loved Wager's ring Cycle -- I think because it's so Lord of the Rings in some aspects.

If one likes renaissance music, then opera doesn't really come along until the beginning of the baroque. So I agree _L'Orfeo_ is good way to make the transition. Try Jordi Savall's version with period instruments and staging. It's magnificent!


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## Heliogabo (Dec 29, 2014)

It is my case too. Opera is hard to me. I love some vocal music: lieder, mélodies, orchestral songs etc... But the opera simply is not my taste. I don´t like the theatrical part of it, storytelling, drama... 
But I can hear some barroque operas because I've always liked barroque music, and I can enjoy Wozzeck (not Lulu yet) and Moses... because I love Berg and Schoenberg´s music. At last, I think I have no more than five or six operas in my collection. Weird...


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## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

Heliogabo said:


> I can enjoy Wozzeck (not Lulu yet) and Moses... because I love Berg and Schoenberg´s music. At last, I think I have no more than five or six operas in my collection. Weird...


Oh, yeah, I forgot about Moses und Aron. I like the music. I don't think I'd want to see it staged.

I'd probably like Baroque opera. I like Charpentier's David et Jonathas. I forgot it was an opera.


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## Heliogabo (Dec 29, 2014)

Manxfeeder said:


> Oh, yeah, I forgot about Moses und Aron. I like the music. I don't think I'd want to see it staged.


Recently I saw a Wozzeck movie on youtube. I haven´t finished it... It was so awful.


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## Weston (Jul 11, 2008)

Didn't oratorio become fashionable for a while because opera was outlawed -- or something along those lines? Hence we have great oratorios like _Messiah_ which might otherwise have been operas, just without all the thumping and shuffling around the stage. I seldom have trouble with oratorios for some reason.


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## Antony (Nov 4, 2013)

deprofundis said:


> I love vocal music of rennaissance motets madrigals, but i have somesort of hidden aversion for opera?
> 
> I dont understand, opera should be a logical next step yet im not ready or i dont get it...
> Than my father said opera was more sophisticated than madrigals or motets, he like it better.
> ...


Hi deprofundis,
I was like you, loved vocal music but Opera? My first experience with opera was La Traviata, well, it was a nightmare. Years after, I felt in love with the aria Voice Che Sepate in nozze di Figaro of Mozart. Didn't understand a word though, but completely hypnotized with the lovely melody at first. Then I wanted to understand what the song (aria) is about. Did the reading and understand its meaning . Love it much much more. And everything started afterward. So, I think if you love vocal music already, it's only a matter of time, and in a beautiful day, you will hear an aria that hits you and , click, you 'll love opera.
One you catch the taste of it, you'll find this forum a treasure ... Like me 

Best of lucks


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## Sonata (Aug 7, 2010)

Manxfeeder said:


> Oh, yeah, I forgot about Moses und Aron. I like the music. I don't think I'd want to see it staged.
> 
> I'd probably like Baroque opera. I like Charpentier's David et Jonathas. I forgot it was an opera.


I just started listening to Charpentier yesterday! I'm looking forward to hearing more of his work; I'll check out David et Jonathas


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## Antony (Nov 4, 2013)

Hi Sonata,

Talking of Charpentier and the music that -hits- , I think the - KO punch- is the majestous Prelude of a Tedeum  royal, grave but grand with a touch of sadness of philosopher (oh, boy, what Am I talking about) . Anyway, this Prelude always gives me the willing to contemple and admire (if not worship) the Greatness, the Majesty, the Grandeur of pure Genius.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

Try some Gluck. I've always liked Sylvia McNair, and I'm not even a big baroque fan.










Or some Russian opera such as Prince Igor, and Boris Gudonov.

And Hindemith's Mathis der Maler conducted by Kubelik is great!

If you have a decent library system where you live, take advantage of their inventory
and try things out. Or just stream some different works until something clicks.

You don't have to go for the famous stuff. Honestly, I don't care much for romantc Italian opera
or Wagner. Try some Poulenc and Berlioz.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

Perhaps try this delightful opera written in the late 1700s: You Tube Link


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

Cause most of it is corny or boring.
Listen to Wagner or R. Strauss or Gluck.


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## Clairvoyance Enough (Jul 25, 2014)

I wouldn't listen to an opera start to finish unless you're watching it, and even then you might find it more digestible to sample highlights albums; I know that I do.


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## rspader (May 14, 2014)

Speaking from my own experience I began to enjoy opera when I turned off the subtitles on the DVDs. For the first few operas that I watched I found the subtitles distracting but felt that I needed them to follow the story. The more I watched the more I was convinced that most opera stories are pretty simplistic and the lyrics somewhat corny and lame. It is the music and emotion of the singers (rather then the lyrics) that move the story along. Now, I read a detailed synopsis so that I know what is generally happening in each act, turn off the subtitles and enjoy the music and singing. I've been to a few live operas and find it easy enough to ignore the subtitles.

Also, if you are not concentrating on the lyrics, the language of the opera becomes irrelevant.

On CD, I can handle a "highlights disc with the best excerpts of an opera but I need the visual effects (DVD or live) to enjoy a complete opera.


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## breakup (Jul 8, 2015)

Opera is like any other music, some you like, others you don't like, the trick is to listen and pick, you don't have to listen to everything, unless you want to appear sophisticated.


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## Bradius (Dec 11, 2012)

I love choral, lieder, art songs, chant...but I just don't like opera. The singing irritates me.


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