# Making things personal...



## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

Geez I hate when this happens on this forum. Eg. I say something in that I admit the limits of my current musical knowledge (or lack thereof) & get pounced upon.

Years ago when I joined this forum, I did have some general grasp of some composers, but not a full grasp. Eg. on the Samuel Barber thread, I said I had only heard his _Violin Concerto_ & _Adagio for Strings_, and said based on that I liked Walton (another "neo-romantic") more.

Then this was used against me & I was told I had no right to have that opinion -



JTech82 said:


> If you've only heard two works from Barber, how could you come the conclusion that you prefer Walton?
> 
> You obviously haven't heard Barber's symphonies, School for Scandal Overture, Essays For Orchestra, his piano concerto, etc. You simply haven't heard enough Barber to form your conclusion.
> 
> ...I laugh at your ignorance.


There was also a rant against "atonality" in that which I edited. After a few more exchanges on that thread, I was told that I had to have the same values as this former member (eg. I had to collect everything under the sun by a certain composer to be able to have any opinion about their music) -



JTech82 said:


> If you only collect a few of a composer's works, then why are you talking on a classical forum? How do you expect to hold an intelligent conversation about a specific composer when all you know are say Stravinsky's "Firebird Suite" and Rachmaninov's "Symphonic Dances?"


Now today, same thing has happened. A current member is taking me to task about having any opinions on his area of interest, HIP. & also using his knowledge about the limitations of my knowledge as a battering ram to ram home his point -



HarpsichordConcerto said:


> That's an utterly preposterous statement, based on the fringe opinion of just one performer (Leonhardt). Considering you appear to have relatively little listening experience on HIP of Baroque and Classical music (you haven't listened to say Bach's _Brandenburgs_ complete or his _B Minor Mass_), you seem to have made a lot of extrapolation about HIP in general, and flexibility of listeners (but then you appear inflexible yourself, enough to avoid opera or works longer than 2 hours in duration in general for example). Sometimes I wonder about the apparent superficialness of some your posts regarding music. In this thread, you appear to link extreme conservatism with HIP to my bewidlerment.


This is despite the fact that I have attended HIP performances & heard recordings as well. Maybe not those specific works that are mentioned, but at least a fair few others. This is not my area of high interest or passion, but I know enough about it to make some general comments. I'm also thinking out aloud on this forum, I don't like to self-censor, & then I'm blamed for being honest. You can't win, can you? Once you say you don't generally like opera, that's a problem, even though you virtually like everything else.

*So what do you think?

How "qualified" do you need to be to have an opinion on something in terms of music?

What do you have to know?

What about things like attitude?

Is it good to use your knowledge of someone's weaknesses against them?

Or is this simply bullying? Is it being too negative?

Your thoughts on these things & other related things, thanks, etc.*

(& BTW, I have familiarised myself with Barber heaps more than I was 2 years ago, but these kinds of negative opinions always assume that you as a listener will stay where you are forever, which is in my case wrong, as I tend to develop my areas of interest as best as I can, but it takes a little time & effort)...


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

Due to these & other personal things, I am taking a two week sabbatical from the forum. I left another online classical forum (deregistered) a few months back as I was similarly being brought to task there for what I see as trivial things. I value the overall positive vibe of TC but I don't want it to end like it did on that other forum, in me being bitter and having to walk away due to some things getting to me big time. So I look forward to returning here in about two weeks...


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## TresPicos (Mar 21, 2009)

I don't even know what HIP means. 

Maybe I should leave this forum too, before someone kills me or something. 

I hope you didn't take JTech82 personally. He was like that with everybody. 

And I hope you will return here eventually. I think you are one of the people who makes this forum a better place. Even though we don't get to see that hooded cat anymore.


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## Jeremy Marchant (Mar 11, 2010)

We all go through a stage of needing to be right. We all move on, though some are more stuck there than others, and we almost inevitably return to it from time to time. 
It's important to understand that it's not about being right, it'd about _needing _to be right - having an attachment to being right.
When people are lke that, they'll pick a fight about the price of fish if that's the only difference between you and them.
It's a a defence against the threat of being wrong and the imagined hurt that that will bring.

When my partner and I teach a course on dealing with difficult people, we suggest some tips which people might find helpful. The first of these is "remember it's their stuff". It's almost arrogant to suppose that they're doing it just for you (as per the remark about Jtech above). They're doing their thing.

The last of the tips is "remember it's your stuff". It's only pressing your buttons because you allow it to. Those buttons indicate where you have a belief that there is a grain of truth in what the other person says _and _you judge yourself for it - which is why you judge them, or at least you have a complaint against them.


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## itywltmt (May 29, 2011)

TresPicos said:


> I don't even know what HIP means.
> 
> Maybe I should leave this forum too, before someone kills me or something.
> 
> ...


I think HIP stands for "Historically Informed Performance"

I think it's sad to read some of what is being said in this thread. I myself have no formal musical training and - not unlike Miss Piggy learning French from reading the back of perfume bottles - thank the Gods for the back of old vinyl album jackets and the Internet for providing me with the little fluency I do have in the realm of classical music.

We are all entitled to our opinions, and this forum is meant to sometimes share opinions (as well as knowledge and experience) and should not fear reprisal for doing so.

I agree that, sometimes, some of us hit "post Quick Reply" too quickly (pardon the redundancy), and that is why sometimes moderators step in. Most of the time, people realize they went too far, and show contrition a few posts down (I know I have...).

It's sad when any one of us feel compelled to "take leave" from what I find has so far been a rather satisfying virtual gathering place. A crying shame, really.


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## Taneyev (Jan 19, 2009)

After listening to "classical" for more than 50 years. I know clearly what I like and what I don't, and care a damn think what others can think or say about my tastes or knowledge.


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

I would guess HIP stands for Historical Instruments Performance. That said, no need to go away over something like this, that is what the ignore option is for.


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## Yoshi (Jul 15, 2009)

Some people may have noticed that I post more on the community forum than anywhere else... that's because I'm intimidated about how serious things can be in the other threads regarding musical knowledge.

I might be wrong but in some places it looks like members are competing with eachother all the time. Either for having the biggest knowledge about the most obscure composers or having the biggest music collection around. I don't have a huge music collection, I might have 3 or 4 CDs. I have no idea who Walton is. If you'll stop taking my posts seriously after admiting this, then I think I'll find something else to do than coming to this place :lol:.
By the way don't get me wrong, I'm not saying all of you are like that, I'm just saying that's the impression I get sometimes when I go to certain threads and that's why I don't feel like posting there.


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## Andy Loochazee (Aug 2, 2007)

I thought a "hip" was a useful device for helping you get your leg over?

I can't imagine it has anything do with classical music.


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

Well I think that starting a thread calling out fellow members is not the best way to protest against those who sometimes cross the line and engage in behavior that can't be described as a good friendly talk. Like Jeremy Marchant said, we all have our moments of arrogance and less than ideal behavior. These things are best solved through private messages. People have their areas of expertise and they're protective of them, it's normal human behavior. People not always have the best "peoples skills." Me included. Sometimes I allow my buttons to be pushed. I often regret it when it happens. At other times I'm better at controlling my human shortcomings and just reply with "Oh, OK, thanks, I stand corrected." The bottom line is, the more we can adopt the latter attitude (which is not always easy), the more pleasant this place will be. And why are we all here if not to have a pleasant experience while exchanging views on something we feel passionate about? Of course, some people may be personality disordered and get hijinks out of engaging in confrontational behavior with others. Those should be either ignored, or brought to the attention of the moderators. But the overwhelming majority of members (including you, Sid, and HC) are nice people who love classical music. So, Sid, as the esteemed member that you are (the author of many interesting contributions to this forum), my advice would be that you address HC (another esteemed member who also contributes positively) directly by PM, clean up whatever went on between the two of you, and come back soon to the forum. This is often a lot more productive than starting this kind of thread.


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## Andy Loochazee (Aug 2, 2007)

Please excuse my unintended ignorance in the previous post. I have now re-examimed the OP and conclude that he might have meant:

HIP - Help for Incontinent People

Or possibly

HIP - Hearing Impaired Person

Whatever he means, I agree that you don't need to be "qualified" to have an opinion on something in terms of music? After all, few people who are members of this or any music Board are qualified and yet it doesn't stop them coming out with the most hilarious comments, does it?

By way of elaboration, I would say, from my vantage point as an expert on 14th Century classical music (everything later than that stinks, btw) that it all depends on who is expressing the opinion. There's a whole spectrum of possibilities but two of the more extreme examples are:

i.	If it's just some random dude who passes through music Boards like this one quite quickly, as so many do, they can say whatever they like, however naïve or stupid it may be, and no-one seems to give a hoot.

ii.	Some members have a tendency to hang around for ages, well past their "sell-by" dates, and develop an addiction to "contributeing" to virtually everything that's going. But a lot of it is pure rant, if not a load of crap, when you analyse it. It's not surprising that this type of comment is prone to being shot down in flames now and then when other members get tired of listening to it.


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## graaf (Dec 12, 2009)

Sid, you got upset over comments by HarpsichordConcerto? The guy so insecure in his Haydn (his avatar, not private part) that he has to bash any post-WW2 music ever mentioned on this forum? Have you even noticed the vocabulary he uses? Typical example of using excessive amounts of generaly seldom used words that _add absolutely nothing_ to the point he is making, but are supposed to sound oh-so-intellectual (or, as he like to say "civilized"). And he's not the only one, a lot of people use forum to compensate something in their lives. As Art Rock said - there's a reason why forums have ignore lists.

Vast music collections, obscure composers, and my favourite: pretending that musical theory is branch of mathematics, acoustics or some other _actual_ science. We've seen experts of every kind, know-it-all types, and what not.

But I have to be completely honest and say that if you can't bring yourself to use ignore list, then it's about you, not them. Pricks always existed, and it is far easier to ignore them on a forum, than in real life. As Jeremy Marchant said: "It's only pressing your buttons because you allow it to. Those buttons indicate where you have a belief that there is a grain of truth in what the other person says and you judge yourself for it". Basically, he said it all, I'm just elaborating in a clumsy way!


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

Andy Loochazee said:


> ii. Some members have a tendency to hang around for ages, well past their "sell-by" dates, and develop an addiction to "contributeing" to virtually everything that's going. But a lot of it is pure rant, if not a load of crap, when you analyse it. * It's not surprising that this type of comment is prone to being shot down in flames now and then when other members get tired of listening to it.*


Hmmm... good advice. Should we do it regarding the above post by Andy Loochazee?:devil:

 Just kidding.:lol:


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

OK, folks, this is getting clearly out of hand. Please remember the Terms of Service.
I knew that a call-out thread would be no good.
Thread closed.


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## Krummhorn (Feb 18, 2007)

*If a member wants to take a person to task personally, please use the PM feature - duke these out in private as they are of no interest to the rest of this forum community. *

Opinions are one matter, and each and every member is entitled to their 'opinion' which is just that. Opinions are opinions, nothing more, nothing less.



Andy Loochazee said:


> I thought a "hip" was a useful device for helping you get your leg over? I can't imagine it has anything do with classical music.


It does, actually ... Historically Informed Performance as another member's 'opinion' already pointed out.


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