# Great orchestrations in live performances!



## Waehnen (Oct 31, 2021)

There has been some talk about great orchestration and also complaint on how the term is used without any explaining and depth, as a kind of label.

So let's post some music for our fellow forumists of greatly orchestrated pieces performed and recorded live!

I would also encourage you to describe by a few words why the orchestration is so good!

I start with a tone pome by Sibelius: The Oceanides.

It is not the best performance ever but it is clearly recorded and does justice to the orchestration.






Sibelius uses a large orchestra here, with a double bassoon, bass clarinet and two harps. The music is divided into three waves: small, medium and massive. It is pure mastery how Sibelius manages the organic growth of the music and orchestration. It is a beautiful musical painting of the ocean at the same time. The cello tremolos are like warm undercurrents bubbling beneath the waves. All the times there is clever layering of textures and expressive, delicious combinations of instruments. This music almost drives me crazy! Nowhere is the music too thick or clumsy. There is always a clear spot of focus despite the music being complicated.

This music could not be transcribed for piano or a string quartet. This music has been created for the orchestra and it doesn't exist without the orchestra.


----------



## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

Great orchestration in my opinion is so good that it is inconceivable for it to have been written any other way. It takes a composer/arranger with a great imagination in addition to the necessary technical knowledge. It has to be appealing to the ear and ever changing. Static, work-a-day orchestration becomes tiring and boring very quickly.

One of the extraordinarily well orchestrated works I know is the Second Symphony of Edward Elgar. The rhapsodic, episodic nature of the long score is easily forgiven because of the dazzling orchestral palette. A flick of a single note in the harp is so beguiling - how did he think of this? Two oboes playing a single note in thirds - what a delicious color! The use of the side drum in the third movement is one of the most terrifying sounds ever created. Throughout the symphony, the use of the strings is masterly. A harmonic here and there and you know that the composer was a fine violinist.

What makes it all the more remarkable is that Elgar was self-taught. He studied orchestration textbooks and scores on his own. He played several instruments which helped. But he also paid close attention to details: in elementary harmony there's a rule that when a chord is in first inversion (the third is in root position) you do not double that third. When Elgar has a chord in first inversion, he is so thorough that even a broken chord in the harp will omit the third. Would it make a difference? Maybe not, but that's another reason his scores speak so clearly: he knows his theory and has the patience to apply it.

Here's another work where I actually prefer recordings to live performance. In the concert hall, many of the delicious, ear-tingling effects are lost. You cannot hear them. Maybe the conductor can, but with everything going on, the hall acoustics, the balance of the orchestra and such those details are gone. But in a fine recording you can hear them. It's not Elgar's fault: it's the modern instruments which are not what he had in mind. The HIP movement has brought forth many recordings of large-scale works which have been revelatory. I hope the Elgar symphonies are given that treatment someday.


----------



## Waehnen (Oct 31, 2021)

mbhaub said:


> Great orchestration in my opinion is so good that it is inconceivable for it to have been written any other way. It takes a composer/arranger with a great imagination in addition to the necessary technical knowledge. It has to be appealing to the ear and ever changing. Static, work-a-day orchestration becomes tiring and boring very quickly.
> 
> One of the extraordinarily well orchestrated works I know is the Second Symphony of Edward Elgar. The rhapsodic, episodic nature of the long score is easily forgiven because of the dazzling orchestral palette. A flick of a single note in the harp is so beguiling - how did he think of this? Two oboes playing a single note in thirds - what a delicious color! The use of the side drum in the third movement is one of the most terrifying sounds ever created. Throughout the symphony, the use of the strings is masterly. A harmonic here and there and you know that the composer was a fine violinist.
> 
> ...


Just letting you know that I got myself the Elgar 2nd Symphony. Barbirolli conducting. Thank you for your recommendation. I will comment later on!


----------



## composingmusic (Dec 16, 2021)

Great thread! I'm looking forward to making some more posts here.

To start with, Ravel's La Valse:






The orchestration in this piece is impeccable, although it's really difficult for a conductor to allow it enough energy, but still keep something reserved for the climactic section at the end. I'm also quite picky about how I'd like the character of this piece to evolve.

The way that this piece begins, with low strings and bassoon, is almost menacing - although keeping the bassoon soft and muted enough can be difficult. I think how the texture evolves with the violas, through to the mid register, and then is joined by the violin section, is quite incredible. This point, where the violins join, really feels like an opening up of the texture to me - and shortly after this, we get the first properly louder section (although the conductor can't allow the orchestra to go all-out here, not quite yet). Then it moves back to something more intimate, with a solo violin carrying the principal line. Overall, how tension is maintained, and is allowed to dip from time to time without losing focus or energy, is amazing.


----------



## RobertJTh (Sep 19, 2021)

mbhaub said:


> Great orchestration in my opinion is so good that it is inconceivable for it to have been written any other way. It takes a composer/arranger with a great imagination in addition to the necessary technical knowledge. It has to be appealing to the ear and ever changing. Static, work-a-day orchestration becomes tiring and boring very quickly.
> 
> One of the extraordinarily well orchestrated works I know is the Second Symphony of Edward Elgar. The rhapsodic, episodic nature of the long score is easily forgiven because of the dazzling orchestral palette. A flick of a single note in the harp is so beguiling - how did he think of this? Two oboes playing a single note in thirds - what a delicious color! The use of the side drum in the third movement is one of the most terrifying sounds ever created. Throughout the symphony, the use of the strings is masterly. A harmonic here and there and you know that the composer was a fine violinist.
> 
> ...





Waehnen said:


> Just letting you know that I got myself the Elgar 2nd Symphony. Barbirolli conducting. Thank you for your recommendation. I will comment later on!


Great post, mbhaub. Coincidentally, I was listening to Elgar's 2nd today, and it was Barbirolli conducting - but not one of his two accounts with the Hallé. In the same year he recorded the work in Manchester (1964) he also played it with the Boston SO:






I didn't even know this recording existed, and it was only posted 2 days ago at youtube.
It's a performance in grand Barbirolli style, not unlike his Hallé studio version, but here with the advantage of a better orchestra with a fresh view on the music (did the Bostonians even play Elager 2 before, or was it Barbirolli who introduced them to the work?) Anyway it's an amazing performance. On the slowish side, but dynamic, exciting, with a slow movement that sounds more gripping and elegiac than ever, a trilling Rondo and a moving, noble finale that never loses momentum.
All in all I think this should be considered the Barbirolli Elgar 2 to go for, not the two Hallé versions, great as they are.

EDIT: Now I'm confused. The youtube uploader claims it was recorded january 7, 1964. But other sources mention july 7 or november 7!
I guess I'll start a separate thread about this issue.


----------

