# That American Sound



## Avey (Mar 5, 2013)

To you, what pieces represent *America*? What pieces are most reminiscent of the American sound? What movements or melodies evoke that specific image of America, manifest destiny, the pioneering spirit, the ol' land of the free? Do those _sounds_ share a common sentiment?

Moreover, do you think there truly is an "American" sound?

---

To start, I will go with the somewhat obvious *Mr. Ives* and his Second Symphony. The rising patterns throughout inspire that galvanic pursuit for life and joy -- not to say that is unique to America, but most definitely reminds me of the homeland.

Then, the _adagio _is oddly reminiscent of _America the Beautiful_ -- am I alone in that opinion? -- just like oozing with that wistful nostalgia often associated with the old spirituals.

And the ending, erumpent with fluttering winds and brass -- as one should only want -- the _cliche_ snare drum, the irregular, yet coalescing melodies and rhythms in the coda, the 11-note ending -- puts me out in the open plains, running and prancing with the optimism and oddity only an American could understand and, more importantly, appreciate.


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## Dustin (Mar 30, 2012)

To me, Gershwin is quintessential American. The Rhapsody In Blue is always thrilling to hear and up to this point, he has got be be my favorite American composer. I love both his classical tendencies and his popular songs immensely.

Copland is coming on strong though as a composer I've only recently become more acquainted with. Ives so far has been the hardest nut to crack. He seems to be not nearly as immediately accessible. I know it may be blasphemy to say, but at moments his Concord Sonata almost sounds completely incomprehensible to me. But despite that, I know immediate accessibility is not a particularly important trait in the overall picture and I'm sure one day his music will click with me in a stronger way.


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## brianvds (May 1, 2013)

The most quintessentially American composer is surely Dvorak...


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## SONNET CLV (May 31, 2014)

Dustin said:


> To me, Gershwin is quintessential American. The Rhapsody In Blue is always thrilling to hear and up to this point, he has got be be my favorite American composer. I love both his classical tendencies and his popular songs immensely.
> 
> Copland is coming on strong though as a composer I've only recently become more acquainted with. Ives so far has been the hardest nut to crack. He seems to be not nearly as immediately accessible. I know it may be blasphemy to say, but at moments his Concord Sonata almost sounds completely incomprehensible to me. But despite that, I know immediate accessibility is not a particularly important trait in the overall picture and I'm sure one day his music will click with me in a stronger way.


Dustin nails down three great choices. Gershwin gives us the jazzy, urban side of the country, while Copland (ironically for a city bred Jewish gay man) delivers the sound of the great outdoors and the "wild West". Ives cannot be dismissed, but it may not be his Concord Sonata for piano that is most immediately a marker for the sound of the U.S., especially the rugged individualism of New England. I would suggest the Symphonies, 2, 3, and 4 and such things as the Holidays pieces.

Ives, of course, reminds us that America (the U.S.) has many sounds, such as that of the marching band. John Phillip Sousa, the great bandmaster and march king, must certainly be counted as one of our country's truest voices. Who can listen to "Stars and Stripes Forever" and not think of the United States at its best?

Too, Ives's music harkens back to the sacred hymns of William Billings, the first American composer and one who added hundreds of hymns to our musical vernacular.

More modern voices also capture the essence of America in other ways. Paul Creston and William Schumann uniquely represent industrial America, the sounds of our factories and streets.

In Roy Harris and Walter Piston one can hear our history and almost the very air we breathe.

And the sounds of Hollywood and Broadway must be represented in any account of American music. Folks with the credentials of Richard Rodgers, Irving Berlin, Stephen Sondheim, Elmer Bernstein, Leonard Bernstein, Alexander Courage, John Williams, Henry Mancini, Franz Waxman -- the list is too long ... have created the very sound of our national music in so many ways.

Of course, we must include the folk singers (Pete Seeger, Woodie Guthrie, Bob Dylan...), the jazz artists (Jelly Roll Morton, Duke Ellington, Miles Davis, Thelonius Monk, John Coltrane...), and the pop music composers (whether they worked as song writers in Nashville or as performers in LA and NY rock bands).

Because the sound of our country's music is rich and diverse, and no one composer can lay a claim to distilling or representing its essence. Rather, let us enjoy the diversity. Open our ears and let them hear. For there is much and much of quality to be heard.


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## Blancrocher (Jul 6, 2013)

Avey said:


> To start, I will go with the somewhat obvious *Mr. Ives* and his Second Symphony.


Sorry for the by-the-way interjection, but I'll just take this opportunity to (re)post a recent, lovely appreciation of Ives by the pianist Jeremy Denk: http://www.nybooks.com/articles/archives/2014/jun/19/charles-ives-wins/?insrc=hpma Anyone who isn't a subscriber to the NYRB won't be able to access the article for free for much longer.

As to the OP: I don't really believe that there's any such thing as "American" instrumental music--but if I did, I would supply John Adams' The Dharma at Big Sur as an example.


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## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

Blancrocher said:


> Sorry for the by-the-way interjection, but I'll just take this opportunity to (re)post a recent, lovely appreciation of Ives by the pianist Jeremy Denk: http://www.nybooks.com/articles/archives/2014/jun/19/charles-ives-wins/?insrc=hpma Anyone who isn't a subscriber to the NYRB won't be able to access the article for free for much longer.


That's an excellent article, and a fine defense of Ives from Denk.


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## StlukesguildOhio (Dec 25, 2006)

This but scratches the surface... but these would certainly be among the works of music that I would think of as defining the sound of America:


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## Nereffid (Feb 6, 2013)

Avey said:


> To you, what pieces represent America? What pieces are most reminiscent of the American sound? What movements or melodies evoke that specific image of America, *manifest destiny, the pioneering spirit, the ol' land of the free?*


I've just been reading Larry McMurtry's biography of Crazy Horse, so I think I'm gonna choose George Crumb's "Black Angels".


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## Guest (Jun 21, 2014)

Avey said:


> To you, what pieces represent *America*? What pieces are most reminiscent of the American sound? What movements or melodies evoke that specific image of America, manifest destiny, the pioneering spirit, the ol' land of the free? Do those _sounds_ share a common sentiment?
> 
> Moreover, do you think there truly is an "American" sound?


As an Englishman, I'll say that I see how many of the pieces cited carry a meaning-by-association with America...but does that make it an American sound?

If I offer Elgar's 'Nimrod' as an 'English sound', it could only be because of the associations it carries - not something intrinsic to the music.


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## schigolch (Jun 26, 2011)

I guess America represents different things, for different people. And this is also the same for American Sound.

To me, this is what sounds "American":


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## DrKilroy (Sep 29, 2012)

As far as I am concerned, the Boston School: Fine, Shapero, Foss, Berger, among others.

Foss - Capriccio for Cello and Piano

Fine - Music for Piano

Fine - The Choral New Yorker

Berger - Suite for Piano Four-Hands

Shapero - Sonata No. 1

Shapero - Sonata No. 3

Best regards, Dr


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## Guest (Jun 21, 2014)

MacLeod said:


> As an Englishman, I'll say that I see how many of the pieces cited carry a meaning-by-association with America...but does that make it an American sound?
> 
> If I offer Elgar's 'Nimrod' as an 'English sound', it could only be because of the associations it carries - not something intrinsic to the music.


But one of the composers cited was Gershwin and who can argue that his music is infused with jazz and blues. Dispite the French trying to take credit for it, jazz as well as blues were born in the southern United States.


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## Ingélou (Feb 10, 2013)

'Appalachian Spring' is full of English & Scottish elements but still sounds American to me - associations with pioneers etc; like the 'hoedowns' depicted in Westerns.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Ingélou said:


> 'Appalachian Spring' is full of English & Scottish elements but still sounds American to me - associations with pioneers etc; like the 'hoedowns' depicted in Westerns.


The first part has such a gentle nostalgic quality about it. Makes me think of my old neighborhood and girlfriends long gone.


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## Antiquarian (Apr 29, 2014)

I've always thought J.P. Sousa's works, his "Stars and Stripes Forever", and his "Washington Post" were quintessentially American, also his "Manhattan Beach" and "The Liberty Bell" marches. They are all brash and militant sounding, but I'll limit my American observations to that.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

That American sound; hard to put into words, but it's easily recognizable in:

Copland, Appalachian Spring

Ives, Concord Piano Sonata

Ives, Second Symphony

Ives, Third Symphony

Ives, Three Places In New England

Schuman, Fourth Symphony

Schuman, Tenth Symphony

Persichetti, Third Piano Sonata

Gershwin, Piano Concerto in F

Instead of trying to define it, simply enjoy it!


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## Guest (Jun 21, 2014)

hpowders said:


> Instead of trying to define it, simply enjoy this proud nationalistic music which fills me with pride; so proud to be an American! :tiphat:


Enjoy "it" by all means, but the OP did invite us to explore the idea of what "it" is (and, therefore, how you might define it).


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## senza sordino (Oct 20, 2013)

I think anything by Copland and Gershwin is quintessentially American.

That American sound? I'm not sure, but I do remember someone once describing Copland music as using large intervals in melodic lines: sixths, octaves and tenths. I can only think of the Saturday Night Waltz from Rodeo. You know, big intervals because of the big expanse to traverse in America.


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## GreenMamba (Oct 14, 2012)

I do recall Bernstein talking about the "wide open spaces and wide open optimism" of Copland's 3rd symphony.

But Copland composed if wildly different styles. Without the title, would we think Billy the Kid was American? What about his Piano Fantasy, or his Jazzy PC?


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## Guest (Jun 22, 2014)

senza sordino said:


> I think anything by Copland and Gershwin is quintessentially American.
> 
> That American sound? I'm not sure, but I do remember someone once describing Copland music as using large intervals in melodic lines: sixths, octaves and tenths. I can only think of the Saturday Night Waltz from Rodeo. You know, big intervals because of the big expanse to traverse in America.


I've got Messiaen's _Turangalila Symphony_ on repeat at the moment (many thanks to the Saturday Symphony thread!), and it reminds at times of Copland (or do I mean Bernstein...Elmer, that is?) played on all the wrong notes. It's fantastic, but it's 'wrong'!

Aren't big ('wrong') intervals a feature of 20thC music?


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## SONNET CLV (May 31, 2014)

What can give a country its "sound" often has to do with indigenous modes -- those unique "scales" that flavor melodies and harmonies in unique ways, so one can tell a Chinese tune from a Congolese tune or a Germanic tune. The "folk" music of a nation or region is generally related to such modes. Bartok infuses the "sound" of Hungary into his work because he's either quoting from Hungarian folk songs (which he collected by touring the country and recording and/or notating the songs he heard) or by creating new melodies based upon the old modes.

Because the United States is diverse and relatively "new" as a nation, it is harder to pin down a modal tradition. Much of our folk music is based upon Celtic or African or Spanish traditional music, often mixed together. Ironically, little of that music reflects the Native American sound, a sound we can all tell when we hear it. Dvorak, the Czech composer who visited the U.S. and lived here for a while in the late 1800s, gave us a string quartet (the _American Quartet_) and a symphony (_From the New World_) that reflect American themes, but they also strongly have a Czech sound, too.

When we cite those composers who demonstrate the American Sound (as I did in a post a couple of notches above this one in the thread) we're really naming those who_ formulated _the American Sound as we know it. In other words, what does America sound like? We didn't know until Gershwin and Copland and Ives told us. And now we can recognize the sound.

Native Americans have unique chants from tribe to tribe. The indigenous Americans can tell one tribe's "songs" from another's in the same way that most of us who read this forum can tell Mozart from Beethoven from Grieg from Tchaikowsky from Wagner. Even though those composers share a Western tradition (comprised mainly of major and minor diatonic scales -- the Ionic and Aeolian modes), their music is unique in sound, partly because of their cultural background (Mozart, Beethoven, and Wagner are Germanic; Grieg is Scandanavian; Tchaikowsky is Russian) which colors their melodies/harmonies due to reliance upon folk traditions native to their lands. We know what Germany sounds like despite any of the music of Mozart, Beethoven, and Wagner; we know what Scandanavia (Norway, specifically) sounds like despite Grieg; we know what Russia sounds like despite Tchaikowsky. But interestingly enough, we probably do not know what America sounds like without the assistance of Gershwin, Copland, and Ives. That's what "newness" as a nation will do for you.

So we must contend that America "sounds" like Scottish fiddlers, like African drummers, like Spanish guitarists, like Cheyenne ghost dancers, like Chinese _guoyue_ instrumentalists. But we rely upon particularly strong voices, that handful of great composers who have codified the "sound", to know it as our own.


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## sharik (Jan 23, 2013)

this is a true America sound -


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## SONNET CLV (May 31, 2014)

Ironically, the music of _West Side Story _best demonstrates my suggestion that the American Sound is a mix of traditions, none of which is essentially "American" to begin with. Take a listen again to the opening notes of the musical. It's the sound of a shofar sounding the traditional Hebrew call "_Tekiah g'dolah_," a short opening note, then a blast upward with a long held note followed by another short blast at a higher pitch. You hear this whistled in _West Side Story_. Then come those four ominous notes (Dum! dum! Dum, dum.) which are nothing more than the Medieval Gregorian chant of the "_Dies Irae_". And here we have the core of Leonard Bernstein's score.

the shofar plays "_Tekiah g'dolah_" -- 




the _Dies Irae _chant -- 




Recall that Bernstein first worked on a script titled _East Side Story_, which featured a Jewish gang rather than a Puerto Rican gang. It was the composer who suggested to the other parties involved in creating the musical that Spanish music would be preferable to the klezmar sound the producers originally had in mind. Of course, Bernstein had already composed that startling opening based upon the Jewish shofar call and the Gregorian chant "_Dies Irae_" (an interesting juxtaposition of Jew v. Christian) and realized its power, so it was never scrapped. Rather, it was incorporated into the revised Spanish-tinged score. And who knew?

So ... this is the American Sound?


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## Headphone Hermit (Jan 8, 2014)

SONNET CLV said:


> Who can listen to "Stars and Stripes Forever" and not think of the United States at its best?


Erm, I can't! What you (and many others) see as positive can also be seen differently - It may be a surprise to those in Paradise, but "USA at its best" is a contested concept for many people.


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## Ingélou (Feb 10, 2013)

SONNET CLV said:


> Ives, of course, reminds us that America (the U.S.) has many sounds, such as that of the marching band. John Phillip Sousa, the great bandmaster and march king, must certainly be counted as one of our country's truest voices. Who can listen to "Stars and Stripes Forever" and not think of the United States at its best?


 Um - I can; or I _could_. Not because I don't like the USA - I do, I like America & Americans a great deal, though every nation has its bad points, just like the UK.

No, it's sheer ignorance - because I didn't know the name of this marching tune, so didn't associate it particularly with America. Brass bands remind me of officialdom, found anywhere in the world, but more especially in Britain & Germany; whilst the tune in the middle always makes me think of the old joke lyrics to it -









*Be kind to your dear feathered friends;
Every duck that you meet may be a brother.
They live in a pond in the swamp
Where the weather is always damp.
You may think that this is the end:
Well,** it is*...

I can't think of marching bands as a very American sound at all, I'm afraid.


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## Vaneyes (May 11, 2010)

Ives, Sousa, Gershwin, Copland, Barber, Grofe, L. Bernstein, Adams, first come to mind for me.:tiphat:


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

Avey said:


> To you, what pieces represent *America*? What pieces are most reminiscent of the American sound? What movements or melodies evoke that specific image of America, manifest destiny, the pioneering spirit, the ol' land of the free? Do those _sounds_ share a common sentiment?
> 
> Moreover, do you think there truly is an "American" sound?
> 
> ...


Yes, Ives embodies that American sound. How can we define it?

1. Use of hymn tunes
2. Use of popular tunes
3. Use of fourths and fifths to convey open spaces (Appalachian Spring)
4. Use of brass and band-like sounds
5. Use of jaw harp in symphonic setting (Ives)
6. Use of jazz sounds (Gershwin, Persichetti)
7. Use of fiddle sounds, open fifths on violins, open strings
8. Use of militaristic instruments (snare drums, trumpets, cannons, hand grenades) to evoke Amerika's relentless need for war and domination
9. Orchestral 'explosions' (Ives) to represent violence and destruction


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

What is the "American" sound? Does this guilty pleasure from John Adams qualify?


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## senza sordino (Oct 20, 2013)

As difficult it is to define, it's still amazing that America has a sound for such a young country. Countries of similar age don't always seem to have such a recognizable sound. Can you hear a Canadian sound? (A loon song cycle?) Australian? (perhaps a didgeridoo concerto?) A New Zealand sound? (A Maori war chant oratorio?)


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## Taggart (Feb 14, 2013)

SONNET CLV said:


> Ives, of course, reminds us that America (the U.S.) has many sounds, such as that of the marching band. John Phillip Sousa, the great bandmaster and march king, must certainly be counted as one of our country's truest voices. Who can listen to "Stars and Stripes Forever" and not think of the United States at its best?


To many brits, especially those of a certain age, Sousa will always be remembered as the man who wrote the theme to Monty Python - and what could be more English than that?


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## Avey (Mar 5, 2013)

millionrainbows said:


> Yes, Ives embodies that American sound. How can we define it?
> 
> 1. Use of *hymn tunes*
> 2. Use of *popular tunes*
> ...


Perhaps your post was meant to make this very point, but I want to at least make it explicit:

All that you mentioned applies to Czech, Russian, German-Austrian, gypsy, Hungarian, Finnish, and English music, respectively, in part.

So, that must be the very point, no? That what _sounds_ American is truly a mix of everything else that _is not_ necessarily rooted in America. And this is just a symptom of history and conquest, pillage and migration, right?


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## Vaneyes (May 11, 2010)

Taggart said:


> To many brits, especially those of a certain age, Sousa will always be remembered as the man who wrote the theme to Monty Python - and what could be more English than that?


And let's not forget Americans "Spider" Rich & "Boots" Randolph's "Yakety Sax", used for The Benny Hill Show.:tiphat:


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Vaneyes said:


> And let's not forget Americans "Spider" Rich & "Boots" Randolph's "Yakety Sax", used for The Benny Hill Show.:tiphat:


Or this piece of deathlessness...


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

Louis Armstrong playing trumpet or scat vocal

Fats Waller

Ellington/Strayhorn tunes

Gershwin

Cole Porter

Thelonious Monk tunes

All the great bebop melodies by Dizzy, Bird, Tadd Dameron.

Bill Monroe

Mahalia Jackson

Muddy Waters

Johnny Cash

Chuck Berry

Leonard Bernstein, of course!

Miles Davis/Gil Evans

Horace Silver

The Beach Boys

Zappa


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

How could I forget?

Take Me Out To The Ball Game


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## Antiquarian (Apr 29, 2014)

And then there is Stephen Foster (1826-1864) who wrote "Old Folks At Home", "Camptown Races", and of course "Beautiful Dreamer" which, oddly enough, found its way onto the soundtrack for Batman (1989). How much more American can you get than that!


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

Antiquarian said:


> And then there is Stephen Foster (1826-1864) who wrote "Old Folks At Home", "Camptown Races", and of course "Beautiful Dreamer" which, oddly enough, found its way onto the soundtrack for Batman (1989). How much more American can you get than that!


A white man ripping off black music. Yup! That's about as American as it gets!


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

Avey said:


> Perhaps your post was meant to make this very point, but I want to at least make it explicit:
> 
> All that you mentioned applies to Czech, Russian, German-Austrian, gypsy, Hungarian, Finnish, and English music, respectively, in part.


Well, that's being a bit inflexible. Beethoven and Mozart used hymn tunes, but they were German tunes. So, yes, every country uses its *respective *folkand hymn origins, but that doesn't mean they're all the same.

As far as domination and imperialism, Onward Christian Soldiers, and God Bless America!


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

starthrower said:


> A white man ripping off black music. Yup! That's about as American as it gets!


No, no, that's a negative way of looking at it. You wouldn't dare to say that "the jews ripped off jazz", I'll bet.

Gershwin and all those "tin pan alley jews" is exactly why the Nazis were intent on suppressing jazz music.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

Avey said:


> ...what _sounds_ American is truly a mix of everything else that _is not_ necessarily rooted in America. And this is just a symptom of history and conquest, pillage and migration, right?


Well, in defense of that, consider John Philip Sousa's popularity, and how that music is obviously rooted in a militaristic vision.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

millionrainbows said:


> As far as domination and imperialism, Onward Christian Soldiers, and God Bless America!


You might want to read the lyrics to either before simply assuming that they are what you seem to think. Please get back at your convenience with the parts about "domination" and "imperialism."


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## mtmailey (Oct 21, 2011)

Who comes to mind are these people: JOPLIN ragtime music,GERSHWIN concerto in f & Beach symphony in e minor.I like these a lot .


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## BRHiler (May 3, 2014)

I've spent a great deal of time attempting to figure out what makes the American sound American. Here's what I've come up with so far.

With Copland, it's the lean orchestration and a lot of open 4ths, 5ths, and octaves. Picture a typical C Major chord as done by Brahms, Mahler, etc., and now knock it down to the Bass on the low C, the viola on g in the staff, and violin on e on the top of the staff. It's a completely different sounding chord!

The final chord (or bi-chord) of Appalachian Spring is a perfect example. If you know the piece, you know that it is a very peaceful and serene sound. The notes used are C, E, G, B, D. Depending on how you "stack" the chord, it can come across as jazzy, or brutal, or in Copland's case, restful. See the image below for how he stacks it.









Note that this section is played by just the strings. He also keeps the C and the B as far away from each other as possible. The only note used more than once is the C (separated by 2 octaves). The other thing I really like is how he used the 2/2 time signature. Just looking at the last page of the score, it conveys a sense of openness that shows the conductor how "he" pictures the sound of this final section. Finally, is this a "skyscraper" chord or is it a C Major and G Major bi-tonal chord? I have my thoughts on it, but it relates back to the beginning of the piece and would take too much time here (as if I haven't rambled enough already!)

He also uses a lot of dotted rhythms and syncopation which is immediately recognizable as the "Western" music.

Melodically, he alternates simplistic "Folk-like" melodies (sometimes just using them, i.e. Simple Gifts), scalar, yet rhythmically active melodies, and the more disjunct melodies with large leaps, usually staying within one key.

I could keep on going with Copland and cite a million examples, and maybe I will later, but this one is quite long enough


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## Huilunsoittaja (Apr 6, 2010)

I could possibly describe the American sound not so much by what it is, but by what it's _not._

American music is _not:_
1) Influenced by single, historically refined style
2) Highly polished and decorated by educated sentiments
3) Anyone else's "music of home" except for Americans
4) (as a result) able to be viewed as anything else except exotic by other music cultures

Why don't we call Beethoven or Bach exotic? It seems that central Europe (Deutschland) was the only country on earth that wasn't exotic, but could always assert its places as being "where all music comes to compare itself to." We don't call Mahler cowbells exotic, or _landlers _exotic. That's home! Even if you live 2000 miles away, that's still home! Somehow.  What I mean to say is that American music will never have this effect, despite overwhelming popularity world-wide. Jazz is still American, no matter where it goes and who studies and plays it. "Jazz" as a term will never be treated the way Beethoven can just be called "Beethoven" without any thought about him be the pinnacle representative of the Netherlands or Germany.


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## Piwikiwi (Apr 1, 2011)

millionrainbows said:


> No, no, that's a negative way of looking at it. You wouldn't dare to say that "the jews ripped off jazz", I'll bet.
> 
> Gershwin and all those "tin pan alley jews" is exactly why the Nazis were intent on suppressing jazz music.


Jewish americand were crucial in the development of jazz. Almost all famous white jazz musicians before the 960's were Jewish


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## Badinerie (May 3, 2008)

Aaron Copeland for me embodies American Classical Music. (Cole Porter for everything else!)


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

I would have to say that the New York School composers alongside with Philip Glass, Steve Reich (you know that lot) developed the quintessential American music, which I can define as a sound world originating from musical philosophies by the contemporary US Americans and had become a trend almost exclusively in the US and is associated with only the history of music in the US. Of course, influences did come from an enormous range of international music styles, but this probably comes closest to the classical music which represents the USA.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

millionrainbows said:


> No, no, that's a negative way of looking at it. You wouldn't dare to say that "the jews ripped off jazz", I'll bet.
> 
> Gershwin and all those "tin pan alley jews" is exactly why the Nazis were intent on suppressing jazz music.


Why mention the Nazi's? There's no meaning in their homicidal bigotry. Gershwin was an American who was obviously influenced by jazz music, but he doesn't get called the father of jazz. Yet Stephen Foster is touted as the "father of American music".


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## Orfeo (Nov 14, 2013)

hpowders said:


> That American sound; hard to put into words, but it's easily recognizable in:
> 
> Copland, Appalachian Spring
> 
> ...


-----------------------------
Plus:

Paul Creston's Symphony no. II
Leonard Bernstein's Symphony no. II "The Age of Anxiety."
William Grant Still's Symphony no. III
David Diamond's Symphonies nos. I, IV.
Samuel Barber's "Vanessa."
George Antheil's Piano Concerti and Fourth Symphony.
--and so forth.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Antiquarian said:


> And then there is Stephen Foster (1826-1864) who wrote "Old Folks At Home", "Camptown Races", and of course "Beautiful Dreamer" which, oddly enough, found its way onto the soundtrack for Batman (1989). How much more American can you get than that!


Of course Stephen Foster lived in a vastly different time. He would be considered a racist by today's standards.

"Massa's in de Cold Ground". Could anyone imagine a white guy writing a song like that today?


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## Antiquarian (Apr 29, 2014)

"I had the intention of omitting my name on my Ethiopian songs owing to the prejudice against them by some, which might injure my reputation as a writer of another style of music" - Stephen Foster, in a letter. Foster was very aware of the possible contoversy his songs might engender, and was concerned about his legacy. It must be rememberd that his life was not a happy one. He wrote his songs for money because his patrons clamoured for them, and to outrace his creditors. He died in a Bowery flop-house from malnutrition and illness with thirty-eight cents in his pocket.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Curious. Did he live in a _Foster_ home when growing up?


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## Antiquarian (Apr 29, 2014)

No, but his father, William Barclay Foster, did not actively "foster" his son's ability, describing it "a strange talent".


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## SONNET CLV (May 31, 2014)

This talk of Stephen Foster and racism reminds me of a genre of American music that for many years signaled the essence of "the American sound" -- what is known as the **** song.

Here are a couple of paragraphs from the Wikipedia entry on this important yet politically incorrect genre:

At the height of **** songs' popularity, "just about every songwriter in the country" was writing **** songs "to fill the seemingly insatiable demand."[5] Writers of **** songs included some of the most important Tin Pan Alley composers, including Gus Edwards, Fred Fisher (who wrote the 1905 "If the Man in the Moon Were a ****," which sold three million copies),[9] and Irving Berlin.[10] Even one of John Philip Sousa's assistants, Arthur Pryor, composed **** songs.[5] (This was meant to ensure a steady supply to Sousa's band, which performed the songs and popularized several **** song melodies.[5])

Most **** songs were written by Whites, but some were written by Blacks.[4] Important African-American composers of **** songs include: Ernest Hogan (who wrote "All ***** Look Alike to Me," the most famous **** song),[11][12] Sam Lucas (who wrote the most racist early **** songs by modern standards),[1] Sidney Perrin, Bob Cole (who wrote dozens of songs, including "I Wonder What The ****'s Game Is?" and "No ***** Allowed"), and Bert Williams and George Walker.[13]

We don't like to talk about this today, but had you asked the question about "What is the American sound in music" to someone round the turn of the 20th century, you'd likely get a response that cited the **** song as integral to that sound. Ironically, many of these songs led to what we know today as jazz, a form many identify as the only _true_ American music. Stephen Foster seems rather mild compared to Ernest Hogan and Sam Lucas, who were both African-Americans.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

SONNET CLV said:


> This talk of Stephen Foster and racism reminds me of a genre of American music that for many years signaled the essence of "the American sound" -- what is known as the **** song.
> 
> Here are a couple of paragraphs from the Wikipedia entry on this important yet politically incorrect genre:
> 
> ...


It's really embarrassing to read some of the words that were acceptable back then.

One must also realize that certain words used by black people among themselves, even today, are taboo when spoken by caucasians.


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## SONNET CLV (May 31, 2014)

hpowders said:


> It's really embarrassing to read some of the words that were acceptable back then.
> 
> One must also realize that certain words used by black people among themselves are taboo when spoken by caucasians.


Of course, at the turn of the 20th century, the general population in the U.S. had far different attitudes towards race than we have today. People of all races, basically, would have conceded that race played a major role in things like intellect, beauty, goodness. Richard Wright, one of our foremost Black writers, tells the story of how his mother insisted he condescend to "white folks" and not fight them to try to "stick up for" anything, essentially because, in her eyes, the "white folk" were superior. My favorite Wright stories come from his collection "The Ethics of Living Jim Crow: An Autobiographical Sketch", which opens with this:

1.My first lesson in how to live as a Negro came when I was quite small. We were living in Arkansas. Our house stood behind the railroad tracks. Its skimpy yard was paved with black cinders. Nothing green ever grew in that yard. The only touch of green we could see was far away, beyond the tracks, over where the white folks lived. But cinders were good enough for me, and I never missed the green growing things. And anyhow, cinders were fine weapons. You could always have a nice hot war with huge black cinders. All you had to do was crouch behind the brick pillars of a house with your hands full of gritty ammunition. And the first woolly black head you saw pop out from behind another row of pillars was your target. You tried your very best to knock it off. It was great fun.

2.I never fully realized the appalling disadvantages of a cinder environment till one day the gang to which I belonged found itself engaged in a war with the white boys who lived beyond the tracks. As usual we laid down our cinder barrage, thinking that this would wipe the white boys out. But they replied with a steady bombardment of broken bottles. We doubled our cinder barrage, but they hid behind trees, hedges, and the sloping embankments of their lawns. Having no such fortifications, we retreated to the brick pillars of our homes. During the retreat a broken milk bottle caught me behind the ear, opening a deep gash which bled profusely. The sight of blood pouring over my face completely demoralized our ranks. My fellow-combatants left me standing paralyzed in the center of the yard, and scurried for their homes. A kind neighbor saw me and rushed me to a doctor, who took three stitches in my neck.

3.I sat brooding on my front steps, nursing my wound and waiting for my mother to come from work. I felt that a grave injustice had been done me. It was all right to throw cinders. The greatest harm a cinder could do was leave a bruise. But broken bottles were dangerous; they left you cut, bleeding, and helpless.

4.When night fell, my mother came from the white folks' kitchen. I raced down the street to meet her. I could just feel in my bones that she would understand. I knew she would tell me exactly what to do next time. I grabbed her hand and babbled out the whole story. She examined my wound, then slapped me.

5."How come yuh didn't hide?" she asked me. "How come yuh awways fightin'?"

6.I was outraged, and bawled. Between sobs I told her that I didn't have any trees or hedges to hide behind. There wasn't a thing I could have used as a trench. And you couldn't throw very far when you were hiding behind the brick pillars of a house. She grabbed a barrel stave, dragged me home, stripped me naked, and beat me till I had a fever of one hundred and two. She would smack my rump with the stave, and, while the skin was still smarting, impart to me gems of Jim Crow wisdom. I was never to throw cinders any more. I was never to fight any more wars. I was never, never, under any conditions, to fight white folks again. And they were absolutely right in clouting me with the broken milk bottle. Didn't I know she was working hard every day in the hot kitchens of the white folks to make money to take care of me? When was I ever going to learn to be a good boy? She couldn't be bothered with my fights. She finished by telling me that I ought to be thankful to God as long as I lived that they didn't kill me.

As for "taboo words spoken by Caucasians", I have long wondered how one can argue against the mistreatments caused by "double standards" when one promotes a double standard (that it's all right for Blacks to use certain words but not for Whites). This argument might have ascendancy among hip-hoppers and certain comedians (ingenuously, one could argue, for purposes of justifying their "art"), but others, including the late Maya Angelou, spoke eloquently against it.

"I continue to say to young people, You are cared for," she said. "They are worth everything. Women are better than being called the "b" word, and blacks are better than being called the 'n' word.... No matter what your race group, no matter what your age group, you are better than being called the word that would deny your humanity." (Quoted from "Maya Angelou on respect" at MSNBC.com: http://www.msnbc.com/politicsnation/maya-angelou-respect-women-are-not-the-b )

I support Angelou's view, but I also realize that we cannot just erase history. One cannot read Richard Wright, for example, without encountering the "n" word. Some there are who would deny us this literature on that basis; others, I among them, argue that the value of such writings as Wright's far outweighs the use of what have been deemed politically incorrect racial slurs. Wright never uses the "n" word jovially or in good-natured comaraderie; rather, he utilizes it in contexts of suppression and hatred against his race. We should never lose sight of the power to hurt that such words can have. Wright reminds us of that.

As for **** songs, we need not sit around singing them at our family campfires. But we mustn't allow this chapter of the history of American music to completely fade from our awareness. Despite the connotations in many a **** song verse, we have seen rising from the ashes of the form a new music, jazz, which gave us genius the likes of Art Tatum, Duke Ellington, John Coltrane, Miles Davis, and so many more masters who are today household names. Such is the power of music.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

hpowders said:


> Of course Stephen Foster lived in a vastly different time. He would be considered a racist by today's standards.
> 
> "Massa's in de Cold Ground". Could anyone imagine a white guy writing a song like that today?


I can't imagine a songwriter of any color referring to others as "darkey's". But I grew up not too long ago in the 60s & 70s when derogatory terms such as ****, *****, honky, ***, ********, and Jap were quite common. Humans can be a stupid, fearful lot.


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## Rhombic (Oct 28, 2013)

The Symphony in One Movement (First Symphony) by Samuel Barber shall be among the greatest American symphonies of all time, together with Copland's. I am very fond of it.

American music developed the way to make large intervals sound melodic (listen to Barber's _Second Essay for Orchestra_)


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## mitchflorida (Apr 24, 2012)

This is better than anything any Englishman ever wrote.


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## Guest (Jun 30, 2014)

mitchflorida said:


> This is better than anything any Englishman ever wrote.


It may be a fine example of Sousa, but I thought this thread was about what "American" means, sonically speaking. It's not a competition with the English (or any other nationality).


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## Piwikiwi (Apr 1, 2011)

mitchflorida said:


> This is better than anything any Englishman ever wrote.


That isn't much of a contest to be honest


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## dstring (May 14, 2013)

For me, it's always been John Adams with his delightful musical sewings and Erich Korngold, who indeed breathed that American sound into his music.


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## violadude (May 2, 2011)

mitchflorida said:


> This is better than anything any Englishman ever wrote.


Really? I think there are lots of better compositions by English composers...

I actually don't like American patriotic marches anyway. Nothing to do with the quality of the music I guess but my parents can be so annoyingly nationalistic that I got allergic to it after a while.


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

violadude said:


> Really? I think there are lots of better compositions by English composers...


Like Eric Coates? :lol:


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## mitchflorida (Apr 24, 2012)

violadude said:


> Really? I think there are lots of better compositions by English composers...
> 
> I actually don't like American patriotic marches anyway. Nothing to do with the quality of the music I guess but my parents can be so annoyingly nationalistic that I got allergic to it after a while.


And I dislike Pomp and Circumstances by Elgar, used at our graduation ceremonies. It is little more than a seedy celebration of brutal British Imperialism and exploitation.

How do you like them apples?


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## violadude (May 2, 2011)

mitchflorida said:


> And I dislike Pomp and Circumstances by Elgar, used at our graduation ceremonies. It is little more than a seedy celebration of brutal British Imperialism and exploitation.
> 
> How do you like them apples?


Sure, I'll agree with that too. I'm not particularly fond of the P & C marches anyway. But I think nearly everything by Purcell or Britten or VW is better than Sousa marches. Just MHO.


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