# Opera Confessions



## Jobis (Jun 13, 2013)

What are your dark secrets concerning how you feel about certain operas:

prepare to tell all ITT :devil:

Me? I fail to feel a real emotional connection with La Traviata, it just leaves me a bit cold.

Also: Shakespeare should never be translated, least of all into italian. I'm looking at you again, Verdi! (Not that I don't love his otello and macbeth)


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## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

I love Bugs Bunny. I mean, I REALLY love Bugs Bunny. Or perhaps the horse, I can't really decide. One of them is really seductive.


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

Jobis said:


> What are your dark secrets concerning how you feel about certain operas:
> 
> prepare to tell all ITT :devil:
> 
> ...


Are you confused,they are both Shakespeare.


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

moody said:


> Are you confused,they are both Shakespeare.


Maybe Jobis loves them for the music but not the libretto.

But I do think _Già nella notte densa_, and Iago's _Credo_, are beautiful and powerful in their own right.

Actually Shakespeare should never be translated into English:lol::


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## Bix (Aug 12, 2010)

Shakespeare should be read in a slight Brummie accent, as our Will was from round there.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brummie


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

mamascarlatti said:


> Maybe Jobis loves them for the music but not the libretto.
> 
> But I do think _Già nella notte densa_, and Iago's _Credo_, are beautiful and powerful in their own right.
> 
> Actually Shakespeare should never be translated into English:lol::


Unfortunately an opera consists of both--they come together.


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

moody said:


> Unfortunately an opera consists of both--they come together.


You are right of course, but I definitely pay more attention to the libretto in some and not others. For example Wagner, or Dialogues des Carmélites - I need to know what is going on. In fact I've read the latter like a play and enjoyed it. Bellini - well, it doesn't matter so much.


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## sospiro (Apr 3, 2010)

mamascarlatti said:


> Actually Shakespeare should never be translated into English :lol:


I think I'd enjoy Shakespeare more if it _was_ translated into English. That's where Verdi had the advantage, he had his translated into a language he could understand. Thanks to him, I now know Macbeth. 

My confession: _La traviata_ does nothing for me either.


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

sospiro said:


> I think I'd enjoy Shakespeare more if it _was_ translated into English. That's where Verdi had the advantage, he had his translated into a language he could understand. Thanks to him, I now know Macbeth.


The problem about Shakespeare is that we have to read it at school and it's not designed to be read.

Try this - it was a revelation to me:


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## sospiro (Apr 3, 2010)

mamascarlatti said:


> The problem about Shakespeare is that we have to read it at school and it's not designed to be read.


So I've heard but I still have nightmares about trying to understand it at school



mamascarlatti said:


> Try this - it was a revelation to me:


Of course, this is the one where Simon sings -








Seriously, yes I might try that. Dr Who meets Star Trek!


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## Jobis (Jun 13, 2013)

moody said:


> Are you confused,they are both Shakespeare.


As mamascarlatti said I enjoy the music, but it just seems wrong to have the libretto in italian.


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## Don Fatale (Aug 31, 2009)

I confess... I prefer Boito's Mefistofele to any opera by Mozart.


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

I'm not all that wild about Richard Strauss.

I think Wagner's operas could often do with some editing.

I like Baroque better than 19th century Bel canto.

I need to watch (not listen to) most post-Britten operas to appreciate them.

I follow today's opera singers rather than old-time ones.

Soprano is my least favourite voice type.

I like Domingo better than Pavarotti.

I like Nina Stemme far more than Birgit Nilsson.

I don't care a monkey's about high notes. Low notes, on the other hand....


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## deggial (Jan 20, 2013)

Alexander said:


> I confess... I prefer Boito's Mefistofele to any opera by Mozart.


why the comparison with Mozart and not with Verdi or Wagner or Puccini or all of them?


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## Glissando (Nov 25, 2011)

mamascarlatti said:


> I like Domingo better than Pavarotti.
> 
> ...


I think many would agree.


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## deggial (Jan 20, 2013)

I don't know that I have any unexpressed negative opinions on operas or composers, but here are a few big name singers that have consistently failed to entertain me:

old timers:

Rosa Ponselle
Sam Ramey

nowadays:

Anna Netrebko
Elina Garanca


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## Bix (Aug 12, 2010)

deggial said:


> I don't know that I have any unexpressed negative opinions on operas or composers, but here are a few big name singers that have consistently failed to entertain me:
> 
> old timers:
> 
> ...


Dr Mike is going to have apoplexy over this one, but I'll fight your side - I agree with this statement


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## deggial (Jan 20, 2013)

Bix said:


> Dr Mike is going to have apoplexy over this one


I hope she texts him kisses every time he defends her good name and honour 

nice to know some agree with me, btw.


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## Dongiovanni (Jul 30, 2012)

sospiro said:


> My confession: _La traviata_ does nothing for me either.


E' strano! e' strano!


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## Jobis (Jun 13, 2013)

I prefer the soprano and baritone voices to tenor.

I'm not a big fan of Jonas Kaufman's singing, he tends to artificially darken his vowels so that the words come out quite distorted, like he is trying to swallow his tongue!






Why did the older singers seem to have so much more in terms of vocal quality? Modern singers like Netrebko and Kaufman seem to compensate with their looks just a little. Give me lauritz melchior over jonas any day.


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## deggial (Jan 20, 2013)

Jobis said:


> Why did the older singers seem to have so much more in terms of vocal quality? Modern singers like Netrebko and Kaufman seem to compensate with their looks just a little. Give me lauritz melchior over jonas any day.


to be fair, there are good singers nowadays as well and there were rubbish or over-hyped ones back then (although I think at the level we're talking there's a lot of subjectivity involved. If I don't like a singer's timbre I won't listen, no matter how accomplished he or she might be otherwise). I personally don't mind Kaufmann; far as I'm concerned he's got a pleasant voice and his technique is good. Netrebko, on the other hand... I haven't figured out yet if she's a poor singer or I just don't like the sounds she produces but honestly I'm not losing sleep over it. There's plenty of contemporary singers I like and would rather listen to and admire.


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## Jobis (Jun 13, 2013)

deggial said:


> to be fair, there are good singers nowadays as well and there were rubbish or over-hyped ones back then (although I think at the level we're talking there's a lot of subjectivity involved. If I don't like a singer's timbre I won't listen, no matter how accomplished he or she might be otherwise). I personally don't mind Kaufmann; far as I'm concerned he's got a pleasant voice and his technique is good. Netrebko, on the other hand... I haven't figured out yet if she's a poor singer or I just don't like the sounds she produces but honestly I'm not losing sleep over it. There's plenty of contemporary singers I like and would rather listen to and admire.


Yes and its easier to find older good singers because we have the whole of history to cherry pick individuals from. Perhaps i'm being unfair on Jonas, he's found a technique that works for him and he's well liked by many so good for him.


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## schigolch (Jun 26, 2011)

Adalgisa, soprano or mezzo?.

I've been always in favor of a philological approach to answer this kind of questions.

Between the dissapearance of the 'castrato' from the Italian operatic stage towards the end of the 18th century, and the undisputed emergence of the tenor as the main male role around the 1830s, in many operas the male protagonist was a trouser role, usually trusted to female altos.

The composer differentiated in the score the trouser rol and the female protagonist, using range and tessitura, as we can easily understand listening for instance to Tancredi and Amenaide.

However, when we are talking about the 'seconda donna' in an opera with soprano and tenor, like in _Norma_, the differences in range are minimal (usually the 'prima donna' descends to a semitone or a full tone lower, while the top notes are the same pitch, or just a semitone higher). The true characterization was in the singing style; more coloratura and 'fioriture' for the 'prima donna', that got the higher notes in the ensembles and her tessitura is somewhat higher, too.

With the decision to use mezzos (and even dramatic mezzos) to portrait this 'seconda donna' we are very far indeed from the original intention, and while in the 19th century Giuditta Pasta sang Tancredi and Norma, in the 20th, it was Marilyn Horne singing Tancredi and Adalgisa.

I prefer a soprano for Adalgisa (though Horne, and other mezzos, were great Adalgisas, of course).

Mariella Devia and Carmela Remigio singing "Oh, rimembranza" a few months ago, in Bologna:


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## deggial (Jan 20, 2013)

^ great post, but did you mean to have it in this thread?


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## schigolch (Jun 26, 2011)

Well, yes... I was going to confess that I prefer a soprano Adalgisa, and then explained a little bit the reason why...


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## deggial (Jan 20, 2013)

oh, good point. I also think such roles should go to sopranos, as mezzos don't _usually_ sound young enough.


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## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

Is it even possible to sing Adalgisa badly? I think that's one role that makes anyone sound good... well, within limits of course!


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## Kieran (Aug 24, 2010)

I once fell asleep during Madame Butterfly (I tried to stay awake, I truly did) and she was alive when I nodded off, but just after I woke, with a huge snort, I found she was dead!


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## deggial (Jan 20, 2013)

Kieran said:


> I once fell asleep during Madame Butterfly (I tried to stay awake, I truly did) and she was alive when I nodded off, but just after I woke, with a huge snort, I found she was dead!


maybe she died of grief when she saw you nodding off!


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## Hoffmann (Jun 10, 2013)

Put me in the 'just say no' to La Traviata camp! 

I've also got to take a break from Tosca - wonderful opera, but it plays in DC about every other year - I guess it's a no brainer to fill seats.


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## sospiro (Apr 3, 2010)

Hoffmann said:


> Put me in the 'just say no' to La Traviata camp!
> 
> I've also got to take a break from Tosca - wonderful opera, but it plays in DC about every other year - I guess it's a no brainer to fill seats.


I know what you mean. I've just come back from seeing part of an opera festival in the small English town of Buxton which specialises in showing lesser known rep. & it was great fun.

I saw Mozart's _La finta giardiniera_, Vivaldi's _Ottone in villa_, Gounod's _La Colombe _, Saint-Saëns' _La Princesse Jaune_ and Britten's Church Parables.


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## Hoffmann (Jun 10, 2013)

That's a really interesting lineup! I've only seen _La Finta Giardiniera_, which was a Regie production (Hans Neuenfels) and in German, so was hard to follow. It did feature an outstanding young tenor, though, which was fun.

I don't know the others, what did you think?


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## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

Jobis said:


> As mamascarlatti said I enjoy the music, but it just seems wrong to have the libretto in italian.


Hmmm... Had there been a British opera composer at the time with anything remotely approaching Verdi's dramatic genius then perhaps it wouldn't needed to have been? With respect, I can't really agree with you - otherwise we'd also have to have the likes of Samson et Dalila in Hebrew and Les Troyens in Classical Latin and I don't think that would scan too well either.


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## sospiro (Apr 3, 2010)

Hoffmann said:


> That's a really interesting lineup! I've only seen _La Finta Giardiniera_, which was a Regie production (Hans Neuenfels) and in German, so was hard to follow. It did feature an outstanding young tenor, though, which was fun.
> 
> I don't know the others, what did you think?


I enjoyed _La Finta Giardiniera_ the best. It was updated to the 1920s but it worked. Loved the Vivaldi despite not being a fan of high voices & the Saint-Saëns. Would have really enjoyed the Gounod if it had been in French but it was in English.

The standard of singing was far far better than (to my shame) I had assumed. The singers were excellent.

Main reason I went though was to see the Church Parables & they were sublime. I'd already seen all three twice at Southwark Cathedral & was so pleased I'd booked to see them again. I'll do a review when I get a moment.


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## Bellinilover (Jul 24, 2013)

deggial said:


> to be fair, there are good singers nowadays as well and there were rubbish or over-hyped ones back then (although I think at the level we're talking there's a lot of subjectivity involved. If I don't like a singer's timbre I won't listen, no matter how accomplished he or she might be otherwise). I personally don't mind Kaufmann; far as I'm concerned he's got a pleasant voice and his technique is good. Netrebko, on the other hand... I haven't figured out yet if she's a poor singer or I just don't like the sounds she produces but honestly I'm not losing sleep over it. There's plenty of contemporary singers I like and would rather listen to and admire.


While I don't agree about Netrebko, I do agree with you regarding timbre, which I've always been very "into." There are a few singers (past and present -- but mostly past) who were very musical and fine interpreters but whose basic sounds don't capture me. Piero Cappuccilli is a case in point. I know many hear his tone as beautiful, but to me it just sounds bland. His phrasing and breath-control were first-rate; I just can't get excited about the timbre, and if I can't do that then the singer probably won't be a favorite of mine. (That said, I do have and enjoy a couple of his complete opera recordings: I PURITANI and I DUE FOSCARI. Both are outstanding versions of those operas.)

As for the OP's original question, I mentioned in another thread that I can't stand AMAHL AND THE NIGHT VISITORS. I'm not a cynic, nor am I non-religious; I just find the opera way too saccharine, especially that duet that goes "I will miss you very much." Yuck.


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

Bellinilover said:


> While I don't agree about Netrebko, I do agree with you regarding timbre, which I've always been very "into." There are a few singers (past and present -- but mostly past) who were very musical and fine interpreters but whose basic sounds don't capture me.


Yes, I'm very much like that - with some much-admired singers I can hear the excellent singing, but the timbre can set my teeth on edge - Pavarotti, Nilsson, Leontyne Price, Sutherland, and Caballé all fall into that category for me (the latter three particularly in their later years), which unfortunately excludes me from a lot of recordings as well as conversations on this forum! I HAVE tried to like them, but after a while my finger is twitching for the _off _button.


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

mamascarlatti said:


> Yes, I'm very much like that - with some much-admired singers I can hear the excellent singing, but the timbre can set my teeth on edge - Pavarotti, Nilsson, Leontyne Price, Sutherland, and Caballé all fall into that category for me (the latter three particularly in their later years), which unfortunately excludes me from a lot of recordings as well as conversations on this forum! I HAVE tried to like them, but after a while my finger is twitching for the _off _button.


I agree with your pics here mostly.
The one I absolutely cant take is Pavarotti.
I just don't get his narrow, thin, pinched sound at all.
I only have him on last resort recordings.
Montserat and Joanie I can take because they were singers.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

I can't bear Cecilia Bartoli. All that shaking and over the top vibrancy coupled to the way she aspirates all her runs. The basic quality of the voice is quite lovely and sometimes (in slow music) she can sound quite ravishing, but as soon as she starts singing anything with fast runs, I simply can't bear it. 

As for her Norma, definitely punching above her weight. I hope I never have to hear it again.


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## perempe (Feb 27, 2014)

i usually go without reading the libretto nor listening to the opera on CD. (tomorrow will be an exception, i just read the libretto of Electra on the bus back from Snow White and the 7 Dwarfs ballet from Kocsák.)

i don't like classical operas.

i prefer big voices over well trained.

i get decent tickets to the opera house for as cheap as i'm afraid to tell.


a year ago -before attending operas- i thought Dire Straits is the highest form of art.
now i won't attend non-classical concerts with 1 or 2 exception.


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

GregMitchell said:


> I can't bear Cecilia Bartoli. All that shaking and over the top vibrancy coupled to the way she aspirates all her runs. The basic quality of the voice is quite lovely and sometimes (in slow music) she can sound quite ravishing, but as soon as she starts singing anything with fast runs, I simply can't bear it.
> 
> As for her Norma, definitely punching above her weight. I hope I never have to hear it again.


Yeah, she has the ability to sound great, but is always way over the top.
It's like a parady or Monty Python send up of opera singing.


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## Bellinilover (Jul 24, 2013)

mamascarlatti said:


> Yes, I'm very much like that - with some much-admired singers I can hear the excellent singing, but the timbre can set my teeth on edge - Pavarotti, Nilsson, Leontyne Price, Sutherland, and Caballé all fall into that category for me (the latter three particularly in their later years), which unfortunately excludes me from a lot of recordings as well as conversations on this forum! I HAVE tried to like them, but after a while my finger is twitching for the _off _button.


With me it's not so much that I find certain timbres unattractive as that I find them lacking in _color_. IMO, all the singers you mention, plus Netrebko, have really exciting vocal colors, but there are some others that sound "white" or "gray" to me -- basically, colorless.


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

You don't need Monty Python: Kimchilia Bartoli


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

It probably isn't an uncommon confession to say that I can't much enjoy Joan Sutherland except in her earliest recordings, and that I'd rather hear just about everything she sang sung by someone else. It's more troubling to me that I can't take Montserrat Caballe either - except in _her_ earliest recordings, before the chesty weight dominated the tone, and the guttural attacks and self-indulgent pianissimos became habitual (not to mention the labored high notes). But what really banishes me to outer darkness is that I dislike Dietrich Fischer-Dieskau - except, for the most part, in _his_ earliest recordings! I was never much taken with his lightweight, lyric-tenorish baritone, and was more or less through with him after he began to give us nit-picky, detailed, declamatory analyses of songs and operatic roles, some of which he should never have sung (Wagner? Please! Only his Kurwenal - very early, 1952 - really impresses me).

It may be my failure to enjoy the work of the above two leading exponents of Bellini and Donizetti - as well as the musically peculiar things that happen when Rene Fleming attempts them! -that has kept me largely uninterested in their operas. For me Callas still has a near-monopoly on that repertoire. Now that's a confession I make gladly!


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## Sloe (May 9, 2014)

I have difficulties with operas with cemballo recitatives and the recitatives always appears to sound the same.

I have also difficulties with Richard Strauss operas.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Sloe said:


> I have difficulties with operas with cemballo recitatives and the recitatives always appears to sound the same.
> 
> I have also difficulties with Richard Strauss operas.


I sympathize on both counts!

Those recitatives are meant to approximate speech, and I think the way they're paced by the singers can determine how agreeable they are. It is absolutely wrong, most of the time, to try to make them "musical" and give them more time than their melodic material warrants. And of course they do work better in the theater than on recordings; they're supposed to correspond to the "action" moments in the plot, and seeing the action helps.

Strauss? I don't know what your difficulties are, but mine are: 1) I find beautiful musical passages in his operas (mainly when sopranos are singing), but a lot of cerebral talk that generates a great deal of not very consequential note-spinning, at which Strauss was too skillful for his own good; and 2) in certain operas - e.g. _Salome_ and _Elektra_ - I feel a mixture of seriousness and kitschiness that makes me unable to respond comfortably on either level - and so I choose not to indulge. I'm sure this is my limitation; plenty of people don't find this a problem.


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

Woodduck said:


> I sympathize on both counts!
> 
> Strauss? I don't know what your difficulties are, but mine are: 1) I find beautiful musical passages in his operas (mainly when sopranos are singing), but a lot of cerebral talk that generates a great deal of not very consequential note-spinning, at which Strauss was too skillful for his own good; and 2) in certain operas - e.g. _Salome_ and _Elektra_ - I feel a mixture of seriousness and kitschiness that makes me unable to respond comfortably on either level - and so I choose not to indulge. I'm sure this is my limitation; plenty of people don't find this a problem.


Too many sopranos. Except Salome, I DO like that one.


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

I like his other operas better than Salome and Elektra, a bit to ugh for me.


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## Bellinilover (Jul 24, 2013)

I love Richard Strauss, especially ELEKTRA. 

I know this isn't completely rational, but I have a sort of aversion to the idea of hearing Italian singers sing in French. I know many of them did/do it idiomatically, yet I always have this fear that they're going to pronouce it badly and/or impose an inappropriate "Italian passion" on the music. For some reason I don't have this same fear about, say, Spanish singers -- just Italian. Maybe it's that I've heard too many horror stories about Franco Corelli's French.


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## gellio (Nov 7, 2013)

Alexander said:


> I confess... I prefer Boito's Mefistofele to any opera by Mozart.


Wait. What? Wow.


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## gellio (Nov 7, 2013)

I think Barber of Seville is overrated and William Tell is Rossini's greatest opera. 

I think La Clemenza di Tito is one of the most underrated operas, and it's such a shame. 

I care far more about the music than the story.


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

Bellinilover said:


> I love Richard Strauss, especially ELEKTRA.
> 
> I know this isn't completely rational, but I have a sort of aversion to the idea of hearing Italian singers sing in French. I know many of them did/do it idiomatically, yet I always have this fear that they're going to pronouce it badly and/or i*mpose an inappropriate "Italian passion" on the music*. For some reason I don't have this same fear about, say, Spanish singers -- just Italian. Maybe it's that I've heard too many horror stories about Franco Corelli's French.


Like this. Shudders.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

This kind of thing. I have no idea if they are any good, but the marketing really puts me off. It actually does them a disservice as it predisposes me to relegate them to the likes of Katherine Jenkins and Russell Watson, when they might well be really good.


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## perempe (Feb 27, 2014)

Sloe said:


> I have difficulties with operas with cemballo recitatives and the recitatives always appears to sound the same.
> 
> I have also difficulties with Richard Strauss operas.


probably that's the main reason why i don't like classical operas.


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## perempe (Feb 27, 2014)

Sloe said:


> I have difficulties with operas with cemballo recitatives and the recitatives always appears to sound the same.
> 
> I have also difficulties with Richard Strauss operas.


probably that's the main reason why i don't like classical operas.

however i like the Strauss operas at the end of the season (Arabella, Der Ariadne, Die Frau, Salome, Der Rosenkavalier, today Electra).


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Bellinilover said:


> I love Richard Strauss, especially ELEKTRA.
> 
> I know this isn't completely rational, but I have a sort of aversion to the idea of hearing Italian singers sing in French. I know many of them did/do it idiomatically, yet I always have this fear that they're going to pronouce it badly and/or impose an inappropriate "Italian passion" on the music. For some reason I don't have this same fear about, say, Spanish singers -- just Italian. Maybe it's that I've heard too many horror stories about Franco Corelli's French.


Tous les contes d'horreur sont vrais.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

GregMitchell said:


> View attachment 43800
> 
> 
> This kind of thing. I have no idea if they are any good, but the marketing really puts me off. It actually does them a disservice as it predisposes me to relegate them to the likes of Katherine Jenkins and Russell Watson, when they might well be really good.


Apparently she is inspecting his ear for wax buildup and is pleased to find the canal open. This will enable him to hear her better during the recording session, ensuring that they begin and end phrases together and that the peaks and troughs of their vibratos do not conflict.

Such thorough and uninhibited preparation for musical performance, which in our parents' day was limited by something they quaintly called taste, helps explain why we are now living in the golden age of opera.


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## Sloe (May 9, 2014)

perempe said:


> probably that's the main reason why i don't like classical operas.
> 
> however i like the Strauss operas at the end of the season (Arabella, Der Ariadne, Die Frau, Salome, Der Rosenkavalier, today Electra).


I consider it a real problem that I really can´t listen to any operas from before maybe 1805 because I know that I miss a lot and they often have good music the problem are that half of them contains of the for me dreadful cemballo recitatives.
For me there is a wall of unharmonic music in Strauss operas is difficult for me to break through. I can´t describe it better for now. However I like Salome and maybe I can learn to like some of the other ones too.


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## perempe (Feb 27, 2014)

Salome and Electra was one of the best in the season. but i have to agree with the note about too many sopranos, it was a redemption when Orest begun singing.

another confession: we managed to take the take the best seats today (Electra) with $3 tickets.


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## deggial (Jan 20, 2013)

gellio said:


> I think La Clemenza di Tito is one of the most underrated operas, and it's such a shame.


it's gaining ground! there's plenty of us who love it.
___________________________________________

Vittorio Grigolo sucks in Italian opera too.


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## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

> Woodduck: It probably isn't an uncommon confession to say that I can't much enjoy Joan Sutherland except in her earliest recordings, and that I'd rather hear just about everything she sang sung by someone else.







Sutherland's 'earlier recordings' are a pretty big proviso though. Ha. Ha. Ha. Ha.-- and a _very hard _act to follow.


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## Badinerie (May 3, 2008)

I really dislike Opera Snobs. Both on stage and off. One does not need to be upper middle class and brim full of A Levels to appreciate opera. I'm gloriously lower working class darlings, and proud of it...


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## perempe (Feb 27, 2014)

in this season, which is my 1st, i've seen 34 operas, and i will add another two within two weeks.


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## sospiro (Apr 3, 2010)

Badinerie said:


> I really dislike Opera Snobs. Both on stage and off. One does not need to be upper middle class and brim full of A Levels to appreciate opera. I'm gloriously lower working class darlings, and proud of it...


:tiphat:

an' a geordie an' all?


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## Bardamu (Dec 12, 2011)

I regard Mascagni as one of the giant of italian Opera.
I actually love him much more than Puccini.



Alexander said:


> I confess... I prefer Boito's Mefistofele to any opera by Mozart.


I prefer Boito's Nerone to his Mefistofele (only listened to the second version though).
I'm not sure why Nerone is often described as a lesser work compared to Mefistofele since I find it much more mature.
It's a pity Boito never completed it (or actually wrote 4 or 5 versions of it without deciding to terminate the work).


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Marschallin Blair said:


> Sutherland's 'earlier recordings' are a pretty big proviso though. Ha. Ha. Ha. Ha.-- and a _very hard _act to follow.


Indeed. No one can beat her in a ten-ring circus like this.

I rarely go to the circus.


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## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

> Woodduck: Indeed. No one can beat her in a ten-ring circus like this.
> 
> I rarely go to the circus.


Listen, everyone is entitled to my opinion. Even <ahem!> Barnum & Bailey's refugees.


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## Sloe (May 9, 2014)

gellio said:


> I think La Clemenza di Tito is one of the most underrated operas, and it's such a shame.
> 
> I care far more about the music than the story.


I saw La Clemenza di Tito on TV once and felt so bored that I turned off the TV.
I see nothing wrong with caring more about the music than the story. The music is a gateway that will lead us to take part of stories we otherwise would not have had any interest in and therefore would have missed.


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## Bellinilover (Jul 24, 2013)

Badinerie said:


> I really dislike Opera Snobs. Both on stage and off. One does not need to be upper middle class and brim full of A Levels to appreciate opera. I'm gloriously lower working class darlings, and proud of it...


I agree, but what I really dislike is opera "snarkiness" -- you know, catty, biting comments about artists, composers, etc. I don't care if they're meant in jest, I just don't like them. Probably that marks me out as humorless, but I don't care; it's how I am.


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## Guest (Jun 10, 2014)

I could confess a few things. But I don't want to die within the hour, ya know?


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

Sloe said:


> I saw La Clemenza di Tito on TV once and felt so bored that I turned off the TV.
> I see nothing wrong with caring more about the music than the story. The music is a gateway that will lead us to take part of stories we otherwise would not have had any interest in and therefore would have missed.


Clemenza takes a bit of getting in to but if you persevere, you might just fall in love with it.


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

Bellinilover said:


> I agree, but what I really dislike is opera "snarkiness" -- you know, catty, biting comments about artists, composers, etc. I don't care if they're meant in jest, I just don't like them. Probably that marks me out as humorless, but I don't care; it's how I am.


I hate that too - especially on a particular site in the States which really has it in for certain sopranos. It's just so mean.


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## Morimur (Jan 23, 2014)

Confession: I find these old Italian operas dreadfully long winded and boring. Ligeti's 'Grand Macabre', now there's a great opera!


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## schigolch (Jun 26, 2011)

Woodduck said:


> It may be my failure to enjoy the work of the above two leading exponents of Bellini and Donizetti - as well as the musically peculiar things that happen when Rene Fleming attempts them! -that has kept me largely uninterested in their operas. For me Callas still has a near-monopoly on that repertoire. Now that's a confession I make gladly!


Have you tried with Mariella Devia, for instance as Elvira and Lucia?











A wonderful belcanto stylist.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

schigolch said:


> Have you tried with Mariella Devia, for instance as Elvira and Lucia?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


With Devia, I regret the absence of _portamento_, though, as Scotto once said, if you can't do it properly, better not to do it at all. Of the two arias I preferred the *Lucia*, but I wouldn't prefer her to Sutherland, and certainly not to Callas.

This is Callas from La Scala in 1954, her debut in the role at La Scala and the year before the Karajan production traveled to Berlin, the voice, if anything, in even better shape. She makes it all sound so easy, which Devia doesn't quite.






And here Sutherland at her debut at Covent Garden with Serafin in the pit. Please note the diction. The voice is much more forwardly produced than later and she actually uses the words. I presume this was Serafin's influence. Either way, the vocalism is pretty stunning. If Sutherland had always sounded like this, I might have liked her more.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

GregMitchell said:


> With Devia, I regret the absence of _portamento_, though, as Scotto once said, if you can't do it properly, better not to do it at all. Of the two arias I preferred the *Lucia*, but I wouldn't prefer her to Sutherland, and certainly not to Callas.
> 
> This is Callas from La Scala in 1954, her debut in the role at La Scala and the year before the Karajan production traveled to Berlin, the voice, if anything, in even better shape. She makes it all sound so easy, which Devia doesn't quite.
> 
> ...


Thanks for that lovely Sutherland clip. I agree: if she'd kept that clear, bright forward sound and decent diction, and built on that, I'd probably have more of her in my collection. I've never been able to get into Devia, fine singer and artist though she is; I just find the voice a bit anonymous-sounding. The above _Lucia_ clip is hard to hear, but here's a better one:


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## Bellinilover (Jul 24, 2013)

mamascarlatti said:


> I hate that too - especially on a particular site in the States which really has it in for certain sopranos. It's just so mean.


And another thing I'm not big on is "opera nostalgia." I certainly do have a special liking for the singers who were performing when I first fell in love with opera (basically, the ones who were in their primes in the late 1990's), and I readily admit that past decades had a better general stock of Verdi and verismo singers than my own time has had, but I am definitely not one to "live in the past." I do personally know a couple of people (not opera fans) who tend to live in the past, and it just strikes me as sad. I believe that few people have really mastered the ability to live in the present, to appreciate what they have when they have it. As for opera, I try to enjoy the current singers as much as I can, if only because I don't want to be one of those people who only realizes their true worth after they're retired or dead.


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## omega (Mar 13, 2014)

My confession: I prefer _Licht_ from Stockhausen to the _Ring_.
No, I'm kidding.
Honestly, this time : Verdi doesn't move me so much...


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Marschallin Blair said:


> Listen, everyone is entitled to my opinion. Even <ahem!> Barnum & Bailey's refugees.


Cziffra began his career playing in a circus! Does he count?


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## deggial (Jan 20, 2013)

omega said:


> My confession: I prefer _Licht_ from Stockhausen to the _Ring_.
> No, I'm kidding.
> Honestly, this time : Verdi doesn't move me so much...


I actually agree with both assertions.


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

Alexander said:


> I confess... I prefer Boito's Mefistofele to any opera by Mozart.


Me too. Big time!!


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

For me the answer is obviously that I love Verdi and Puccini operas but am lukewarm about most of Mozart's operas (save "The Don") and Rossini's operas.
(running for cover)


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

nina foresti said:


> For me the answer is obviously that I love Verdi and Puccini operas but am lukewarm about most of Mozart's operas (save "The Don") and Rossini's operas.
> (running for cover)


It's all right, dear. We're on TC, where everyone is kind. The Lukewarm to Mozart's Operas Society doesn't need to meet by candlelight in dank basements. (I'm the president, by the way.)


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

I also am not turned on by "The Merry Widow" or "Die Zauberflote"

I also bemoan the fact that with a plethora of marvelous tenors today, there is really only one truly dramatic tenor (Jonas Kaufmann) on a large list of wonderful names. 
What happened to the category of Corellis, del Monacos, Tuckers, Vickers, Carusos? 
I want an Otello!!!
I know Kaufmann is scheduled to do it in '16 or '17, so I'll just have to bite the bullet till then.


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## Sloe (May 9, 2014)

Sloe said:


> I see nothing wrong with caring more about the music than the story. The music is a gateway that will lead us to take part of stories we otherwise would not have had any interest in and therefore would have missed.


I will give two examples.
I think Stiffelio and La Traviata by Guiseppi Verdi are great operas that I have listened to maybe hundreds of times but I would not be interested in a play or a film or a novel about a priest who is angry at his wife for being unfaithful to him or about a dying courtesan finding love. Then there is of course more about both operas but I have no interest in giving spoilers.

I also think Norma and Tosca are great operas but I am not so fond of either Casta diva or Vissi d'arte.


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## Bellinilover (Jul 24, 2013)

Sloe said:


> I will give two examples.
> I think Stiffelio and La Traviata by Guiseppi Verdi are great operas that I have listened to maybe hundreds of times but I would not be interested in a play or a film or a novel about a priest who is angry at his wife for being unfaithful to him or about a dying courtesan finding love. Then there is of course more about both operas but I have no interest in giving spoilers.
> 
> I also think Norma and Tosca are great operas but I am not so fond of either Casta diva or Vissi d'arte.


I think that those plots (STIFFELIO and LA TRAVIATA) would need a certain amount of "filling out" before they could be the basis of an effective novel or play (I do realize, of course, that LA TRAVIATA is based on a play). So I agree with you that opera plots are just that -- _opera_ plots. They're intended for music.

Funny, I've never been much of a fan of "Vissi d'arte" either, much as I like TOSCA.


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## Antiquarian (Apr 29, 2014)

I confess that the first opera that I attended was at the age of twelve. My mother induced me, as many of my parent's friends were fans. It was Mozart's The Magic Flute, and my opinion at the time was so unfavourable that I avoided opera altogether for over a decade.


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

Sloe said:


> I will give two examples.
> I think Stiffelio and La Traviata by Guiseppi Verdi are great operas that I have listened to maybe hundreds of times but I would not be interested in a play or a film or a novel about a priest who is angry at his wife for being unfaithful to him or about a dying courtesan finding love. .


Your decriptions trivialize the themes of both these operas, although of course it is your prerogative not to be interested in the plots.

Stiffelio is a story of redemption, the pastor's forgiveness an act of courage in turning against the conventional morality of contemporary society.

La Traviata is about a woman who is despised by bourgeois society but shows a greatness of heart and self-sacrifice that many would not find in themselves.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Bellinilover said:


> Funny, I've never been much of a fan of "Vissi d'arte" either, much as I like TOSCA.


If I'm not mistaken, the aria was not intended to exist in Puccini's original conception, and he included it reluctantly to please his soprano, who complained that she didn't have an aria. It does hold up the action, and Puccini didn't try to make any real musical transitions into or out of it. Toscas have to figure out what to do with themselves (sit? stand? lie down? wave their arms?) while singing it, and their Scarpias have to go polish the wine glasses. Generally speaking, I'd gladly skip it.

But then we have this: 




Damn. It wrecks me _every single time_.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

nina foresti said:


> For me the answer is obviously that I love Verdi and Puccini operas but am lukewarm about most of Mozart's operas (save "The Don") and Rossini's operas.
> (running for cover)


No problem. We'll try and warm you up a bit towards Wolfie!


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## Sloe (May 9, 2014)

mamascarlatti said:


> Your decriptions trivialize the themes of both these operas, although of course it is your prerogative not to be interested in the plots.
> 
> Stiffelio is a story of redemption, the pastor's forgiveness an act of courage in turning against the conventional morality of contemporary society.
> 
> La Traviata is about a woman who is despised by bourgeois society but shows a greatness of heart and self-sacrifice that many would not find in themselves.


I knew there would be answers like that so I wrote there are more to it but I want those that will see them for the first time to find these things out for themselves instead of reading it on a forum. Stiffelio is an excellent redemption story just as La Traviata is a great story of self sacrifice I just say in an other form I would not have taken interest of the stories.


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

Sloe said:


> I knew there would be answers like that so I wrote there are more to it but I want those that will see them for the first time to find these things out for themselves instead of reading it on a forum. Stiffelio is an excellent redemption story just as La Traviata is a great story of self sacrifice I just say in an other form I would not have taken interest of the stories.


Yes, that would be the same for many operas, although I do Like La Dame aux camélias as a book - actually I couldn't put it down. I haven't read the play on which Stiffelio is based. But the music is definitely transformative.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Sloe said:


> I think Stiffelio and La Traviata by Guiseppi Verdi are great operas that I have listened to maybe hundreds of times but I would not be interested in a play or a film or a novel about a priest who is angry at his wife for being unfaithful to him or about a dying courtesan finding love.


Run immediately to your local video store and rent _Camille_, the 1936 film starring Greta Garbo. Maria Callas cited Garbo as having inspired her interpretation of Violetta in _La Traviata_. You may be pleasantly surprised at how a great actress can bring a creaky old romance to life, even without Verdi's music (although the soundtrack uses snatches of it).


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## Sloe (May 9, 2014)

Woodduck said:


> Run immediately to your local video store and rent _Camille_, the 1936 film starring Greta Garbo. Maria Callas cited Garbo as having inspired her interpretation of Violetta in _La Traviata_. You may be pleasantly surprised at how a great actress can bring a creaky old romance to life, even without Verdi's music (although the soundtrack uses snatches of it).


Thank you for your recommendation.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Sloe said:


> Thank you for your recommendation.


You're most welcome.


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## Sloe (May 9, 2014)

mamascarlatti said:


> Yes, that would be the same for many operas, although I do Like La Dame aux camélias as a book - actually I couldn't put it down. I haven't read the play on which Stiffelio is based. But the music is definitely transformative.


The best way to say it is that we have different interests and there is nothing wrong with that. Then at least I can enjoy most cultural expressions if it is made in an appealing way.


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## perempe (Feb 27, 2014)

Alexander said:


> I confess... I prefer Boito's Mefistofele to any opera by Mozart.


I couldn't agree more.

i can easily access a live performance, i've attended two, but met older opera fans who had tickets to every (9?) performance.


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## Bellinilover (Jul 24, 2013)

Woodduck said:


> If I'm not mistaken, the aria was not intended to exist in Puccini's original conception, and he included it reluctantly to please his soprano, who complained that she didn't have an aria. It does hold up the action, and Puccini didn't try to make any real musical transitions into or out of it. Toscas have to figure out what to do with themselves (sit? stand? lie down? wave their arms?) while singing it, and their Scarpias have to go polish the wine glasses. Generally speaking, I'd gladly skip it.
> 
> But then we have this:
> 
> ...


Personally, I've never really thought about or cared much whether a certain number "holds up the action"; I just accept that, since it's opera, there are times when the action is suspended. If the scene between Tosca and Scarpia were taking place in real life, and Tosca paused to pray, the prayer would probably last only a few seconds, but in opera a few seconds can be stretched out to a few minutes. Like I said, it's a convention I have no trouble accepting. (And since time is suspended, I suppose it follows that Scarpia should basically "freeze," gazing at Tosca and refraining from all stage business until the aria ends.) As for "Vissi d'arte," I guess it just doesn't "click" with me on a musical or emotional level. There are some arias you immediately "take to" and others you're more indifferent to, and for me "Vissi d'arte" is in the second category. "Di Provenza" from TRAVIATA is another aria I've never particuarly taken to, but I can't explain why. For some reason, it just doesn't move me the way some other Verdi baritone arias do.


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## Sloe (May 9, 2014)

Bellinilover said:


> Personally, I've never really thought about or cared much whether a certain number "holds up the action"; I just accept that, since it's opera, there are times when the action is suspended. If the scene between Tosca and Scarpia were taking place in real life, and Tosca paused to pray, the prayer would probably last only a few seconds, but in opera a few seconds can be stretched out to a few minutes. Like I said, it's a convention I have no trouble accepting. (And since time is suspended, I suppose it follows that Scarpia should basically "freeze," gazing at Tosca and refraining from all stage business until the aria ends.) As for "Vissi d'arte," I guess it just doesn't "click" with me on a musical or emotional level. There are some arias you immediately "take to" and others you're more indifferent to, and for me "Vissi d'arte" is in the second category. "Di Provenza" from TRAVIATA is another aria I've never particuarly taken to, but I can't explain why. For some reason, it just doesn't move me the way some other Verdi baritone arias do.


The problem is it is not the right place to have the time suspended it is the most intense scene in the opera that will lead to its great climax and it is interrupted by a slow aria that is totally out of place.


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## Bellinilover (Jul 24, 2013)

Sloe said:


> The problem is it is not the right place to have the time suspended it is the most intense scene in the opera that will lead to its great climax and it is interrupted by a slow aria that is totally out of place.


Well, I think you do have a point there. I have in fact noticed it, though subconsciously. On the other hand, I think the aria sums up Tosca's character well; it continues the religiosity theme from Act I.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Woodduck said:


> If I'm not mistaken, the aria was not intended to exist in Puccini's original conception, and he included it reluctantly to please his soprano, who complained that she didn't have an aria. It does hold up the action, and Puccini didn't try to make any real musical transitions into or out of it. Toscas have to figure out what to do with themselves (sit? stand? lie down? wave their arms?) while singing it, and their Scarpias have to go polish the wine glasses. Generally speaking, I'd gladly skip it.
> 
> But then we have this:
> 
> ...


Though, oddly enough, Callas herself said she thought the aria should be cut, as it held up the action. Of course when she sang it, there were no thoughts about it holding up the action.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Bellinilover said:


> "Di Provenza" from TRAVIATA is another aria I've never particuarly taken to, but I can't explain why. For some reason, it just doesn't move me the way some other Verdi baritone arias do.


Well Germont is being a bit of a bore here, and Alfredo isn't really listening anyway. The _cabaletta_ is much worse and makes no sense dramatically whatsoever. I have absolutely no doubt the later Verdi would not have written it. It's formulaic, and uninteresting. I must admit I'm always rather relieved when it's cut.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

GregMitchell said:


> Well Germont is being a bit of a bore here, and Alfredo isn't really listening anyway. The _cabaletta_ is much worse and makes no sense dramatically whatsoever. I have absolutely no doubt the later Verdi would not have written it. It's formulaic, and uninteresting. I must admit I'm always rather relieved when it's cut.


I've always been a little resistant to "Di Provenza" too, even though I love the opera. It's a lovely tune, but square and stop-the-action formal; Alfredo's hostility to the message and the overall tension of the situation make Germont standing there giving a speech annoying to me, which undercuts the sympathetic feelings the music is telling me I should have. For many years I didn't even know there was a cabaletta, and discovering it only made things worse! I suspect a more mature Verdi would have found a more musically flexible and dramatically integrated way of portraying the characters' conflicting feelings, as he does so masterfully between, say, Iago and Otello.

I'd also remark that few baritones sing this with the ease, dynamic control, and legato it requires, which only makes it sound more hectoring and stiff. I suspect it's one of those tunes that sounds easy but isn't.


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## schigolch (Jun 26, 2011)

Personally, I love this canzonetta. It's clear that there is little power of conviction inside, as Alfredo is not remotely listening to anything his father can say, but it's a very well planned piece. It's written, on purpose, with an outdated "Donizzetian" style, with two verses, a ritornello and a coda a cappella. Very old-fashioned, very conventional... exactly what Germont père character is supposed to represent at this stage in the drama. And a longing for the sunny Provenza. This is also the main reason behind the B flat major, the popular air, and the 4/4.

About the cut of "No, non udrai rimproveri", I don't like it. True, musically we are losing nothing, but with the cabaletta there is some interaction between Alfredo and his father, that makes the action much more fluent. If not, Alfredo just... go to Paris. Same situation than when "O mio rimorso" is cut. He just... go to Paris. 

However, some people are not that fond of "Di Provenza" either. Among them, Felice Varesi, the creator of the role (he also created for Verdi both Macbeth and Rigoletto). He was not very enthusiastic at the premiere, and he later declared that 'Verdi was not making the right use of the resources at his disposal (meaning, in this context, Varesi himself!).'. He called "Di Provenza" a 'little adagio'. 

Well, à chacun son goût.


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## Bellinilover (Jul 24, 2013)

Regarding "Di Provenza": I actually like when the cabaletta is included, not because I think it's great music but because, in my opinion, it "rounds out" the scene nicely. And in the appendix section of _The Grand Tradition_ J.B. Steane makes the point that the aria, being rather "square," does need considerable contrasts in dynamics and emphases by the baritone to bring it to life. Steane says that our popular idea of "Di Provenza" is as a nice, smooth bel canto aria, yet Verdi, by the way he marked the score, actually intended something a little different -- still bel canto, yet not quite so "smooth."


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Well I don't have a problem with _Di provenza_ as such. Yes it's a bit tedious, and yes Germont is droning on a bit, but that in itself is dramatically apt.

My problem with _No non udrai_ is that all Germont does is repeat himself, in a musically uninspired cabaletta. Quite honestly I'm surprised the hot-headed Alfredo doesn't just rush out and follow Violetta to Paris, which of course is exactly what he does do if it is cut. It makes far more dramatic sense to me. During _Di provenza_ Alfredo sits thinking about Violetta and what she has done, not really listening to his father, his anger mounting. As soon as his father pauses for breath he is off. That makes more sense to me.


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## schigolch (Jun 26, 2011)

Bellinilover said:


> Regarding "Di Provenza": I actually like when the cabaletta is included, not because I think it's great music but because, in my opinion, it "rounds out" the scene nicely. And in the appendix section of _The Grand Tradition_ J.B. Steane makes the point that the aria, being rather "square," does need considerable contrasts in dynamics and emphases by the baritone to bring it to life. Steane says that our popular idea of "Di Provenza" is as a nice, smooth bel canto aria, yet Verdi, by the way he marked the score, actually intended something a little different -- still bel canto, yet not quite so "smooth."


Yes, the melody is introduced by the woods, and then the voice enters with the strings, in a 'Andante piutosto mosso'. The baritone needs to sing this dolce, piano and legato but all the score is marked with acciaccature. The voice needs to raise to high Eflat and high F, and Verdi request singing con espressione in the di forza fragment. At the end of the first section we have a high G flat ("Dio mi guidò") and the end in pianissimo rallentando. The second section is pretty similar, and the fermata a cappella ends in a diminuendo allargando and a morendo.

Now, to comply with all these indications is not easy. Many baritones find very difficult to sing piano and respect the agility inherent in the acciaccature. Hence, many flat deliveries, that couldn't be more distant to Verdi's original intention. Curiously, in the cabaletta Verdi also requires to sing pp and dolcissimo.


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## Jobis (Jun 13, 2013)

Act III of Die Walkure is almost ruined for me because of the sheer number of damn dramatic sopranos. I just wonder what were you thinking Wagner? I just want to pull out a machine gun and mow them down to stop the shrieking.

I've got nothing against that fach, but man hearing over 4 at once belting out in their upper registers is just awful.


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## amfortas (Jun 15, 2011)

Jobis said:


> Act III of Die Walkure is almost ruined for me because of the sheer number of damn dramatic sopranos. I just wonder what were you thinking Wagner? I just want to pull out a machine gun and mow them down to stop the shrieking.
> 
> I've got nothing against that fach, but man hearing over 4 at once belting out in their upper registers is just awful.


I don't have the same response, though I suppose I can see where you're coming from. But it's worth remembering that the whole dramatic point of these Walküre sisters is their fierce, amoral revelry in human strife and death (to contrast with the newly awakened compassion of their sister, Brünnhilde). A prettier, more soothing sound wouldn't have served.


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

Jobis said:


> Act III of Die Walkure is almost ruined for me because of the sheer number of damn dramatic sopranos. I just wonder what were you thinking Wagner? I just want to pull out a machine gun and mow them down to stop the shrieking.
> 
> I've got nothing against that fach, but man hearing over 4 at once belting out in their upper registers is just awful.


Cracking up here. I often share your sentiments about dramatic sopranos. All that hoijotohing and cracking jokes about horses and dead heroes reminds me forcibly and rather scarily of the large muscular sporty girls at boarding school.


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## deggial (Jan 20, 2013)

amfortas said:


> A prettier, more soothing sound wouldn't have served.


perfectly reasonable but explain that to your ears


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## atmplayspiano (Apr 12, 2014)

I enjoyed Lakmé. The faux Orientalism was charming to me.


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## Sloe (May 9, 2014)

deggial said:


> perfectly reasonable but explain that to your ears


Despite that it is painful to hear loud sopranos live it is still a wonderful sound.


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## deggial (Jan 20, 2013)

at least at home you can lower the volume


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## amfortas (Jun 15, 2011)

deggial said:


> perfectly reasonable but explain that to your ears


Well, like I said, I don't share Jobis's cringing response. We all have our limits; many draw the line at opera itself.


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## Sloe (May 9, 2014)

mamascarlatti said:


> Cracking up here. I often share your sentiments about dramatic sopranos. All that hoijotohing and cracking jokes about horses and dead heroes reminds me forcibly and rather scarily of the large muscular sporty girls at boarding school.


They are scary large muscular girls and that only means that Wagner succeeded.
Personally I love it but I must say I think the beginning of act two of Die Walküre is better.


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## perempe (Feb 27, 2014)

i usually take better seats compared to what i paid for. in this season the difference is about $2000-3000.


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## Sloe (May 9, 2014)

What opera house is that?
And what happen when the person who the seat belongs to come or is it that empty? I can understand that there are empty seats with those prices it is a lot even in every dollar currency I know.
When I have been to the opera house it is usually full.


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## perempe (Feb 27, 2014)

company secrets.


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## Bellinilover (Jul 24, 2013)

I don't think these two statements are going to be too popular here, but anyway...

1. I honestly don't care for period-instrument performances of Mozart's operas (and yes, I have heard Rene Jacobs).

2. I can't stand to hear Elisabeth Schwarzkopf sing arias by Italian composers. I happen to own recordings of her in "Addio del passato" and "Un bel di" as they're part of Met Guild compilation CDs I own devoted to Verdi and Puccini. Alhough the voice itself is exquisite, she sounds, to my ear, totally wrong stylistically: simpering, artificial, short on legato, and unmoving. Just recently I tried the "Addio del passato" again and had to turn it off halfway through. I just couldn't take it.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Bellinilover said:


> 2. I can't stand to hear Elisabeth Schwarzkopf sing arias by Italian composers. I happen to own recordings of her in "Addio del passato" and "Un bel di" as they're part of Met Guild compilation CDs I own devoted to Verdi and Puccini. Alhough the voice itself is exquisite, she sounds, to my ear, totally wrong stylistically: simpering, artificial, short on legato, and unmoving. Just recently I tried the "Addio del passato" again and had to turn it off halfway through. I just couldn't take it.


But those two aris are hardly representative of her best work in Italian opera. Her studio recording of Desdemona's Willow Song and Ave Maria is one of the best I've ever heard. She sings Mimi's two solos and Lauretta's _O mio babbino cara_ at the same sessions, and one notes how distinctly she characterises the two roles, absolutely nothing generalised about her performances. I also enjoy her Liu on the Callas *Turandot*, though I'll admit she sounds more like a Duchess than a slave girl, but I capitulate to her finely nuanced, beautifully shaded singing nevertheless.

Then there is her Alice on Karajan's *Falstaff*, just brimming with high spirits, the voice shot through with laughter.

I have the Butterfly arias on a CD of radio broadcasts (which also includes quite the best rendition of Marietta's Lied from *Die tote Stadt* that I have ever heard), and I don't much like them either. I'm not sure if she ever sang Butterfly on stage, but she did sing Violetta in her early years. She publicly gave up the role after seeing Callas perform it, saying "What is the sense in doing a part that another contemporary artist can do to perfection?"


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## Bellinilover (Jul 24, 2013)

GregMitchell said:


> But those two aris are hardly representative of her best work in Italian opera. Her studio recording of Desdemona's Willow Song and Ave Maria is one of the best I've ever heard. She sings Mimi's two solos and Lauretta's _O mio babbino cara_ at the same sessions, and one notes how distinctly she characterises the two roles, absolutely nothing generalised about her performances. I also enjoy her Liu on the Callas *Turandot*, though I'll admit she sounds more like a Duchess than a slave girl, but I capitulate to her finely nuanced, beautifully shaded singing nevertheless.
> 
> Then there is her Alice on Karajan's *Falstaff*, just brimming with high spirits, the voice shot through with laughter.
> 
> I have the Butterfly arias on a CD of radio broadcasts (which also includes quite the best rendition of Marietta's Lied from *Die tote Stadt* that I have ever heard), and I don't much like them either. I'm not sure if she ever sang Butterfly on stage, but she did sing Violetta in her early years. She publicly gave up the role after seeing Callas perform it, saying "What is the sense in doing a part that another contemporary artist can do to perfection?"


I hope I get to hear the other arias you mention. My view on Schwarzkopf is just the opposite of Peter G. Davis's (one of my least-favorite critics, anyway): he thought she had an unremarkable voice but was a great interpreter, whereas I think her voice was lovely while her interpretations are too...I don't want to say "mannered" because it's become a cliche...but _artificial_-sounding for me. Her style does fit well with the role of Donna Elvira (on the Giulini recording), but as I said I find the two Italian-opera recordings I mentioned jarringly wrong with regards to style, which is a shame because I like the basic tone so much.


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## Bellinilover (Jul 24, 2013)

Jobis said:


> Act III of Die Walkure is almost ruined for me because of the sheer number of damn dramatic sopranos. I just wonder what were you thinking Wagner? I just want to pull out a machine gun and mow them down to stop the shrieking.
> 
> I've got nothing against that fach, but man hearing over 4 at once belting out in their upper registers is just awful.


I sort of agree. The orchestral part is thrilling, and the solo voices are fine, but when they all sing together it is a bit much.


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## schigolch (Jun 26, 2011)

"Glück, das mir verblieb" - Elisabeth Schwarzkopf --> 



 this is my favorite soprano version, too.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Bellinilover said:


> I hope I get to hear the other arias you mention. My view on Schwarzkopf is just the opposite of Peter G. Davis's (one of my least-favorite critics, anyway): he thought she had an unremarkable voice but was a great interpreter, whereas I think her voice was lovely while her interpretations are too...I don't want to say "mannered" because it's become a cliche...but _artificial_-sounding for me. Her style does fit well with the role of Donna Elvira (on the Giulini recording), but as I said I find the two Italian-opera recordings I mentioned jarringly wrong with regards to style, which is a shame because I like the basic tone so much.


She was John Steane's favourite singer, and I know you admire him a great deal.

Personally I rarely find her artificial, to be honest, and find the epithet "mannered" to be both unfounded and overused, though I can see why people might think it.

All singers have their mannerisms of course, but we think of them as idiosyncrasies if we like them, and mannerisms if we don't. For instance Sutherland's mannerisms (the droopy portamenti, the sloppy diction) drive me mad, but no doubt for you they are just idiosyncrasies.


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## Bellinilover (Jul 24, 2013)

GregMitchell said:


> She was John Steane's favourite singer, and I know you admire him a great deal.
> 
> Personally I rarely find her artificial, to be honest, and find the epithet "mannered" to be both unfounded and overused, though I can see why people might think it.
> 
> All singers have their mannerisms of course, but we think of them as idiosyncrasies if we like them, and mannerisms if we don't. For instance Sutherland's mannerisms (the droopy portamenti, the sloppy diction) drive me mad, but no doubt for you they are just idiosyncrasies.


Reading Steane's books, I've found that I agree with him on most things, yet I can't quite share his great enthusiasm for Schwarzopf, though as I said I do like her tone.

My specific problem with Schwarzkopf is that, with her, the emotion too often sounds simulated. Of course, I'm well aware that singers don't actually experience the emotions they sing about as they sing about them (because to do so would be dangerous vocally); opera singing isn't Method acting. But most of them are able to make it at least _sound_ real; with Schwarzkopf the "seams" are generally too visible. But that's just my taste.

You sum up "mannerism and idiosyncrasy" very well. I've never liked the term "mannered" and have always noticed that the minute a singer becomes famous he/she is accused of being "mannered." It seems that only young, "unspoiled" singers at the beginnings of their careers are _not_ "mannered."


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Bellinilover said:


> Reading Steane's books, I've found that I agree with him on most things, yet I can't quite share his great enthusiasm for Schwarzopf, though as I said I do like her tone.
> 
> My specific problem with Schwarzkopf is that, with her, the emotion too often sounds simulated. Of course, I'm well aware that singers don't actually experience the emotions they sing about as they sing about them (because to do so would be dangerous vocally); opera singing isn't Method acting. But most of them are able to make it at least _sound_ real; with Schwarzkopf the "seams" are generally too visible. But that's just my taste.
> 
> You sum up "mannerism and idiosyncrasy" very well. I've never liked the term "mannered" and have always noticed that the minute a singer becomes famous he/she is accused of being "mannered." It seems that only young, "unspoiled" singers at the beginnings of their careers are _not_ "mannered."


I think you and I probably have very different reactions to singers. Looking at my favourites, I tend to like voices that are a) extremely individual (a few notes is enough to recognise them) and b) have the ability to make you see as well as hear. With Schwarzkopf, Callas, Baker, Gobbi, Vickers and so many more of my favourites I feel as if I can _see_ a changing face, the ever shifting emotions of the moment. Steane summed it up in a nutshell once, when he talked about listening to Callas with a friend.

"You had to see her of course," his friend opined.

"Oh, but I can, and I do," replied John.

I feel the same about Schwarzkopf. Her Marchallin far surpasses anyone else I've heard in that regard, so responsive to the text, so aware of the Marschallin's every mood, every thought. She gives the text a Lieder singer's attention, of which I'm sure both Strauss and Hofmannsthal would have approved. In comparison, most others seem generalised. The added bonus is the lovely sheen of her voice. Beauty _and_ intelligence. It's a rare combination.


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## Bellinilover (Jul 24, 2013)

*GregMitchell:* Yeah, I guess we do have somewhat different values. The element that has always been of #1 importance to me is tone -- i.e. the sheer sound of the voice. If I can't get excited about the voice simply has sound, then the singer probably won't be a favorite of mine. The voice must also be firm and reasonably agile, because I don't think much emotion can be conveyed if the voice is either immobile or wobbling all over the place. Musicality is essential, as is vocal acting -- however, if a singer lacks an important element (e.g. Sutherland with her lack of sharp diction), I can accept if I love the sound enough and the singer has other elements I like.

With Schwarzkopf, when I was in college and listened to her Donna Elvira I actually admired the ways she achieved her different effects, yet I find that the older I get the less that very premeditated style appeals to me; I keep wanting more of an appearance of spontaneity. By the way, I've always heard a lot of beauty in Jon Vickers's sound (though I can understand why some might hear it as bizarre), and certainly it's hard to imagine anyone who knows him mistaking him for some other tenor! I also think both Gobbi and Callas had basically beautiful voices, though Gobbi had certain technical limitations and both he and Callas were willing to make "ugly" sounds in the interest of drama.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Bellinilover said:


> *GregMitchell:* If I can't get excited about the voice simply has sound, then the singer probably won't be a favorite of mine.


Well that is probably true for most of us. It was certainly the sound of Callas's voice that first switched me on to her, but beyond the actual voice it was also the expressive use of sound. I remember the first Callas disc I ever owned was a Pye Ember release of her first records, made for Cetra. To the Mad Scene from *I Puritani* and Wagner's _Liebstod_, they had added excerpts from her complete Cetra studio recordings of *la Traviata* and *La Gioconda*, and the singing just blew me away. Though recognisably the same singer, I was amazed that this one voice could move from the airy lightness of the *Puritani* Mad Scene (those scale passages emerging like the sighs of a wounded soul) to the passion and grand guignol of _Suicidio_ from *La Gioconda* (those chest tones as if wrenched from her very core). Of course, with Callas, there is never any sense of artifice. Though the result of hard work and study, her performances always seemed totally spontaneous and I would have to admit Schwarzkopf is not always able to evince the art that conceals art. I love her none the less and often think of Callas and Schwarzkopf being different sides of the same coin; Schwarzkopf the intellectual and Callas the instinctive, if you like.

Sutherland just doesn't do it for me, though I appreciate the beauty and virtuosity. In fact I often play her recording of _Bel raggio_ from *Semiramide* as a demonstration of sheer technical brilliance and vocal ease (the one from _The Art of the Prima Donna_, not the complete recording). In fact that whole set could be used as a demonstration of technical wizardry and mastery second to none, but I could never listen to it all in one go. As one aria follows another, I am more and more struck by a sameness of interpretation that you never get from a recital disc by Callas, Schwarzkopf or Janet Baker, to name my top three female singers. The emotions are generalised and there is no sense of the specific. The voice doesn't _speak_ to me and ultimately I need more.


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## JohnGerald (Jul 6, 2014)

I guess that confessing is supposed to be cathartic or something, so ...

I am and have been for many years (as in MANY!) an opera addict. If a day goes by without me hearing a healthy does, I get a bit frosty.

I swoon ( i ALWAYS wanted to use that word! ) at anything by Bellini, Rossini, Donizetti and Verdi (except Falstaff and Otello).

I loathe Wagner, despite trying many times to get with him.

I really like Manon, especially the DVD with Netrebko and Villazon, despite what many call a candied score.

I detest most contemporary stuff. And ...

I melt with the schmalz of operetta.

But my shrink/bartender tells me that since it's all subjective, I shouldn't worry.


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## Autumn Leaves (Jan 3, 2014)

Some of my dark opera secrets have been hinted at already on TalkClassical, yet here they are stated clearly:

1) I prefer my favorite singers from the Mariinsky to the more well-known ones;

2) I don't sympathize with lyrical tenor characters very much. They all seem the same to me, with few exceptions;

3) I hate Siegfried (the guy, not the opera), Brünnhilde (NOT because she's so often fat) and Wotan.


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

1. I am no fan of most of Mozart (save "The Don") and Rossini leaves me cold.
2. Albanese sounds like a little old grandma to me. (Fine actress though)
3. You may have "The Merry Widow".
4. I used to dislike "Di quella pira" -- now I adore it.
5. I am madly in love with Dmitri Hvorostovsky (Oh, the voice? That's pretty good too!)
6. I want to love her but Bartoli drives me crazy.
7. I detest Eurotrash productions
8. I hate Bieito/Vick/Bondy/Sellars (you get the idea)
9. Flaws n' all, best tenor voice ever is Mario Lanza (hold your rotten tomatoes)
10. Two spectacular voices that get short shrift: Eleanor Steber and Neil Shicoff


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## Ivansen (Aug 8, 2014)

The libretto does very little for me in most operas. I'm mainly in it for the music, not the stories. I do like to watch good, charismatic acting. I just don't rate operas based on whether the story is relatable or on the quality of the poetry.


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## Sloe (May 9, 2014)

nina foresti said:


> 1.
> 7. I detest Eurotrash productions


Please don´t use the term euro-trash productions it is called regietheater.

I am not against using creative staging but there are four problems with it.
At many opera houses every production is of this kind one opera per season would be fine not every opera.
In some operas the staging is important because it takes place in for operas unusual settings. If they are set in medieval Europe they can do whatever they want.
There are basically four versions present time, 1930:is, the composers lifetime and strange like Lohengrin with rats.
They say the plot is moved to the time of the period they have taken the costumes from. No if you stage an opera about real persons and real events it can only be set in the time of that person and these events.


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## Posie (Aug 18, 2013)

I understand the greatness of Beethoven, but I have trouble getting excited about his music. Can someone post a cure?

"Whatta you _mean_ Beethoven wasn't so great?!"


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

marinasabina said:


> I understand the greatness of Beethoven, but I have trouble getting excited about his music.


Well, some will object, but Beethoven's shortcomings in vocal music were recognized as early as 1810 by E.T.A. Hoffman.

"...vocal music...does not allow to him the character of infinite longing. It is his instrumental music that attracts the multitudes."

From a contemporary review of the premiere of Fidelio in 1805:

"Beethoven has often sacrificed the beautiful for the sake of the new and peculiar. Therefore, one should above all have expected peculiarity, novelty and a certain originality in this, his first theatrical product. But precisely these qualities are what are found the least. If the entire work is viewed calmly and without prejudice, one has to find that it is extraordinary in neither its inventiveness nor its execution."


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## deggial (Jan 20, 2013)

Sloe said:


> 1930:is


that's when the villains are fascists  I'm confused by stagings set during the composer's lifetime. Why should that be "a thing"?


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## Sloe (May 9, 2014)

deggial said:


> that's when the villains are fascists  I'm confused by stagings set during the composer's lifetime. Why should that be "a thing"?


At least they are acknowledging to the fact that the operas are products of the era when they were written and composed.


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## Bellinilover (Jul 24, 2013)

Another confession: I want to hear Mozart's Zerlina and Susanna sung either by mezzos or by darker-voiced sopranos like Moffo or Netrebko. The definitive Susanna, for me, is Cecilia Bartoli on the Met telecast from 1997-1998. No matter how good they are, bright-voiced, "perky," soubrette Susannas/Zerlinas tend to bore me.


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## Dongiovanni (Jul 30, 2012)

Bellinilover said:


> Another confession: I want to hear Mozart's Zerlina and Susanna sung either by mezzos or by darker-voiced sopranos like Moffo or Netrebko. The definitive Susanna, for me, is Cecilia Bartoli on the Met telecast from 1997-1998. No matter how good they are, bright-voiced, "perky," soubrette Susannas/Zerlinas tend to bore me.


Trebs sang both Susanna and Zerlina. If you search you can find a youtube sound fragment of her singing Zerlina. As much as I love her voice, I also like the bright-voiced, "perky," Susannas. Sadly she never sang the Contessa.


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## Bellinilover (Jul 24, 2013)

Dongiovanni said:


> Trebs sang both Susanna and Zerlina. If you search you can find a youtube sound fragment of her singing Zerlina. As much as I love her voice, I also like the bright-voiced, "perky," Susannas. Sadly she never sang the Contessa.


I do actually like Hye Kyung Hong's Zerlina in the Met telecast with Terfel, but I suspect she has a fuller voice than does the "typical soubrette." I don't care for Graziella Sciutti on the famous Giulini recording (too "chirpy"), not to mention some of the more run-of-the-mill Zerlinas I've heard.


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## perempe (Feb 27, 2014)

I enjoyed Gluck's baroque opera, Iphigénie en Tauride.


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## DonAlfonso (Oct 4, 2014)

Traviata - I'd agree except for Poppa Guermont whom I really like. Alfredo I find odious and stupid, worse than Pinkerton who at least has a job.
In my opinion Verdi (or Piave) completely misread Macbeth. In the play there is real love and affection between Macbeth and Lady Macbeth (though they are monsters) which is totally lacking in the opera.
Fidelio leaves me cold - only grateful when it's finally over.


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## Bellinilover (Jul 24, 2013)

DonAlfonso said:


> Traviata - I'd agree except for Poppa Guermont whom I really like. Alfredo I find odious and stupid, worse than Pinkerton who at least has a job.
> In my opinion Verdi (or Piave) completely misread Macbeth. In the play there is real love and affection between Macbeth and Lady Macbeth (though they are monsters) which is totally lacking in the opera.
> Fidelio leaves me cold - only grateful when it's finally over.


Nice to see that someone else besides me likes Germont! About Alfredo I'd say that it's a hard role to play without making the character seem like an immature brat.


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