# Reinecke and Raff views please on where to start



## whispering (Oct 26, 2013)

Helo

in recent months I have stumbled upon two CDs of music by Carl Reinecke. They are for the symphonies 2 and 3, and his piano quartets op 34 and 272 and piano quintet op83.

The opus number 272 is what caused me to start this thread. I have no other knowledge of this composer but his output is rather large. My main interest is in chamber music and piano concertos. That said when I stumble onto a composer I know nothing about, but whose output is so large I put my hands up and think how do I get into this music?

For those of you with knowledge of this composer I would welcome recommendations of where best to start on his works. What compositions are most memorable or at least give a good feel for his work. I realise such judgements are personal, but any advice offered would be most welcome.

On a secondary point the same would apply to the composer Raff. I know absolutely nothing about his music, with some rather derogatory past comments on various websites having put me off. Something along the lines once you have heard a few of his compositions you realise they are very similar to each other and not very memorable. I hasten to add they are not my views just ones I have seen in the past and therefore gone onto listen to other composers.

A long winter is now looming, the world seems to be going to hell in a hand cart so I want to lose myself in what are new composers to me. Are Reinecke and Raff the ones I ask anyone in the know?


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## RobertJTh (Sep 19, 2021)

If you're interested in romantic concertos, you can't go wrong with Reineke. He wrote the absolute best romantic harp concerto in the repertoire, and his flute concerto is famous too. The piano concertos are worth exploring as well - and there are four of them!
My advice would be starting with the harp concerto, it's a masterpiece.

Raff stands for symphonies, he wrote some (very) good ones, some (rather) boring ones too. A good starting point would be either his 3rd ("Im Walde") or 5th ("Lenore") symphonies, those are full-blooded romantic works which are perfectly enjoyable. The orchestral suites are lovely too.


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## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

I've collected a lot of Reinecke, but his music has never clicked with me. Too bland or something.

Raff is a whole different matter: I've been promoting his work for over 50 years and collect everything. He was not a "great" composer, but an excellent 2nd-rate one who wrote some really fine music...and a lot of note-spinning, dull things too. As RobertJTH wrote, if it's orchestral music you want start with symphonies 3 and 5. That's where most of us began with Raff 50 years ago when the first recordings came out. Those were the last two of his symphonies to remain in the repetoire. (Interesting bit of trivia: in the USA during the last 40 years of the 19th c, the most popular composer in concerts after Beethoven was Raff!). His Sinfonietta for Winds is wonderful, but good luck finding a recording these days. His chamber music is quite ingratiating. One of the operas is now available and I hear that two more have recently been performed and hopefully those recordings will make there way out soon.


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## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

I also support Raff's 3rd+5th symphonies although I find both have a few boring bits. The 5th is rather harmless if one knows the spooky (ghost bridegroom) ballad "Lenore" it is supposedly based on... The late 4 "seasons" symphonies seem even less eventful. Raff is very good at instrumentation and picturesque vignettes like dance of elves or carnival or whatever and the music is usually pleasant but these nice scherzo or idyllic movements struggle to carry a 40 min symphony, IMO. 
In my limited experience the more recent Raff recordings with Stadlmair/Bamberg are better than the 1970s/80s with different conductors/orchestras (both on Tudor). However, some of the fillers of the older Tudor discs seem not available elsewhere, such as the already mentioned "sinfonietta" that could be more precisely called a wind serenade (at least I have not found another recording).

Raff's piano trios are also nice, there is a good recording on cpo, however, I think Robert Volkmann has more interesting chamber music (also cpo, trios and quartets), consider also Gernsheim and Rheinberger, and the chamber music by Max Bruch.

My favorite piece by Reinecke is the trio for oboe, horn, piano; there are two other trios with clarinet but they are not as good.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

Ballade, Op.288


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## DaveM (Jun 29, 2015)

Reinecke who was one of the few composers who saw the 20th century, but was born while Beethoven was alive had flashes of greatness during his long life. One is the Largo from the 1877 Piano Concerto #3 which can hold its own against almost any piano concerto slow movement from the 19th century. Listen at 16:15:


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## ORigel (May 7, 2020)

Raff's oratorio World's End -- Judgement -- New World is on Youtube. Some of the orchestral intermezzi in that Oratorio are nice, like "War," "Death and Hell," and "Judgement."


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## Rogerx (Apr 27, 2018)

For me some Raff essentials :


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## sbmonty (Jan 11, 2014)

https://www.raff.org

This is a comprehensive Raff site. I enjoy his Symphonies and the Cello Concertos are very good.


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## Roger Knox (Jul 19, 2017)

Raff:

Symphonies 3, 5 and 8 (Frühlingsklänge)
Violin Concertos Nos. 1 & 2
Cavatina for Violin and Orchestra
Italian and Thuringian Orchestral Suites

Reinecke:

Flute Concerto and Ballade
Harp Concerto
Piano Concerto No. 3


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## Merl (Jul 28, 2016)

Agree with many of the sentiments (above) about the symphonies of both composers but do not neglect Raff or Reinecke's string quartets! Reinecke's early quartets are good but the later quartets are really enjoyable pieces. The same goes for Raff's string quartets which are all decent but the 7th, 'Die Schöne Müllerin', is a hugely enjoyable romantic quartet (that was very popular in its time) and a great listen for SQ lovers.


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## Roger Knox (Jul 19, 2017)

Merl said:


> Agree with many of the sentiments (above) about the symphonies of both composers but do not neglect Raff or Reinecke's string quartets! Reinecke's early quartets are good but the later quartets are really enjoyable pieces. The same goes for Raff's string quartets which are all decent but the 7th, 'Die Schöne Müllerin', is a hugely enjoyable romantic quartet (that was very popular in its time) and a great listen for SQ lovers.


Thanks for the recommendations.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

Raff is the short for Rachmaninoff, just as Berg is for Schoenberg, Verdi is for Monteverdi


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## Roger Knox (Jul 19, 2017)

hammeredklavier said:


> Raff is the short for Rachmaninoff, just as Berg is for Schoenberg, Verdi is for Monteverdi


My goodness, for a moment I thought I was on Ideas for Stupid Threads ... but yes, we can use some humor here too!


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