# SOPRANO TOURNAMENT (By Request): Jones vs Milanov



## Bonetan (Dec 22, 2016)

Gwyneth Jones, Wales, 1936- (defeated by Davidsen 9-1)






Zinka Milanov, Croatia, 1906-1989






'D'amor sull'ali rosee' from Verdi's _Il Trovatore_.

Who's singing did you prefer and why?


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

is a better recorded version of Milanov's version I didn't see. I thought this would be an interesting contest as often we forget Milanov, who was the leading Verdi singer at the Met in the post war era. What many don't realize is how different early Gwyneth Jones is from later Jones. It is like two different singers. I think she had the makings of being one of the greatest Verdi sopranos of the 20th century. These were very close but I gave the crown to Gwyneth for having the more beautiful voice in my opinion and for singing it so ideally. I am very fond of later Jones' singing, but none of the later flaws had entered her singing in this recording.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Who knew Gwyneth Jones had a trill? Not I. A trill and no wobble? What a treat. Her work here has considerable beauty and a lovely sincerity of expression, even discounting her radiant personal presence and elegant, musical plastique. There's perhaps a hint of effort (or maybe just some edginess as recorded) on forte high notes and a deficiency of chest tone which probably conspired with her movement into dramatic soprano repertoire to produce the wild wobble which keeps me away from her work from around 1970 on. But I enjoy her performance here.

That said, Milanov at her best was formidable in this repertoire, and her technique exhibits both a developed chest voice and the free, spinning top which made possible her famous high pianos and pianissimos. She was considered by many to embody the idea of a "Verdi soprano" for her generation, and was admired by Ponselle. This presents a minor dilemma for me, since I admire Milanov's vocal skills but find her musical personality, at least in this performance, a wee bit cool compared to the generous warmth Jones exudes. But I've tended to go for superior vocalism in close contests, and will do so here. So Milanov, marginally.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Woodduck said:


> Who knew Gwyneth Jones had a trill? Not I. A trill and no wobble? What a treat. Her work here has considerable beauty and a lovely sincerity of expression, even discounting her radiant personal presence and elegant, musical plastique. There's perhaps a hint of effort (or maybe just some edginess as recorded) on forte high notes and a deficiency of chest tone which probably conspired with her movement into dramatic soprano repertoire to produce the wild wobble which keeps me away from her work from around 1970 on. But I enjoy her performance here.
> 
> That said, Milanov at her best was formidable in this repertoire, and her technique exhibits both a developed chest voice and the free, spinning top which made possible her famous high pianos and pianissimos. She was considered by many to embody the idea of a "Verdi soprano" for her generation, and was admired by Ponselle. This presents a minor dilemma for me, since I admire Milanov's vocal skills but find her musical personality, at least in this performance, a wee bit cool compared to the generous warmth Jones exudes. But I've tended to go for superior vocalism in close contests, and will do so here. So Milanov, marginally.


You write so beautifully, Woodduck. Spot on about Milanov. She could sing magnificently and you are right about the unity of her registers.
An interesting not very well known tidbit about Jones: later in her career after years of Elektras and Brunhildes, she was asked to sing Norma. She learned the part in a week (!!!!!!) and performed it once and it is on Youtube in considerable chunks. While it didn't challenge Callas, Sutherland or Caballe, she did surprisingly well, moving that massive voice with surprising ease and still possessing a good trill. Her Miro O Norma duet was exceptional! She even tried for the D. Just trying out the role once it was a beautifully developed characterization. If she had stuck with Verdi, Mozart and Tosca, she could have become one of the great interpreters of the role. I saw her at her peak in the 70's as Kundry backstage at Bayreuth, but was too young to know what I was seeing. Her videos of Brunhilde from Bayreuth are the best that we have in my opinion and her Elektra on video is staggering. A flawed singer who could be mesmerizing.


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## Parley (May 29, 2021)

I can’t see why on earth we are comparing these two singers as Jones had a German repertoire which (unless I am unaware of it) Milanov did not.


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## Bonetan (Dec 22, 2016)

Parley said:


> I can't see why on earth we are comparing these two singers as Jones had a German repertoire which (unless I am unaware of it) Milanov did not.


Seattle's first post should make this clear.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Seattleoperafan said:


> You write so beautifully, Woodduck. Spot on about Milanov. She could sing magnificently and you are right about the unity of her registers.
> An interesting not very well known tidbit about Jones: later in her career after years of Elektras and Brunhildes, she was asked to sing Norma. She learned the part in a week (!!!!!!) and performed it once and it is on Youtube in considerable chunks. While it didn't challenge Callas, Sutherland or Caballe, she did surprisingly well, moving that massive voice with surprising ease and still possessing a good trill. Her Miro O Norma duet was exceptional! She even tried for the D. Just trying out the role once it was a beautifully developed characterization. If she had stuck with Verdi, Mozart and Tosca, she could have become one of the great interpreters of the role. I saw her at her peak in the 70's as Kundry backstage at Bayreuth, but was too young to know what I was seeing. Her videos of Brunhilde from Bayreuth are the best that we have in my opinion and her Elektra on video is staggering. A flawed singer who could be mesmerizing.


Jones was certainly an outstanding actress, and her voice was big and reliable enough to have made her performances compelling in the theater. Purely for listening, not so much. Even in 1970, as Kundry in the Boulez _Parsifal_ from Bayreuth, there's too much wobble for my comfort. But she made some enjoyable recordings in the 1960s. I first got to know her doing Sibelius's _Luonnotar._ The voice was quite steady.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

My singing teacher knew Jones and always said she could have been a great Verdi soprano if she'd stuck with that repertoire, and, on this showing, I can believe it. She phrases beautifully, has a wonderful trill and really captures the mood of the aria. Nor is there any sign of the huge wobble that beset her in later years.

I've never been a fan of Milanov. I just find her a rather dull singer, for all those wonderful _pianissimi_. Her trill isn't as good as Jones' and, to be honest, she sounds a bit effortful at the end. I know she was the darling of the Met for many years, but she's just one of those singers I've never responded to. Jones is much better at capturing the mood of this nocturnal piece too. I doubt she'd win if pitted against Ponselle, Callas or Leontyne Price, but in this company she wins easily.


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## Esclarmonde (May 10, 2021)

I am pleasantly surprised by Gwyneth Jones' performance here. 
Until now, I had only heard her later recordings - and the wobble was very distracting. This is fresh and a delight.

She has my vote! Brava!


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

Both are miles away from doing my favorite soprano aria the way it should be done (Radvanovsky/Callas) so I am forced to pick the best of the worst -- and simply because Milanov (a singer rarely among my faves) has diminuendos and pianissimos that are exquisite at all times, I choose Zinka.


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

I was familiar with the Jones and early Jones (there's a Verdi Requiem with Corelli and she's even more unrecognisable as the soprano in Mendelssohn's Elijah on the recording with Fischer-Dieskau and Janet Baker.

Milanov I'm less familiar with. She's on magnificant form here and the voice sounds monumentally huge. However, as Tsaras notes, there's something dull about her interpretation. It's all art that shows itself off as art. Jones sounds more natural and makes the aria very much her own. Jones wins.

N.


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## Parsifal98 (Apr 29, 2020)

Some may find Milanov's interpreation dull, but I personally find her technical prowess exciting. What an instrument and what a beautiful sound! She gets my vote!


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## Dimace (Oct 19, 2018)

Fair battle here, which the *Gwyneth won* with 10% to 20% better performance. Her voice sounds more melodic, buon tenuta, with greater range etc. Very nice aria this one. Thanks Bonetan and guys!


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## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

If I were just going off of who I thought was the better singer in general, Milanov in a heartbeat. As it stands, it's closer than I would have expected. I never knew Gwenyth Jones could sing like that in her prime.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

BalalaikaBoy said:


> If I were just going off of who I thought was the better singer in general, Milanov in a heartbeat. As it stands, it's closer than I would have expected. I never knew Gwenyth Jones could sing like that in her prime.


That prime was so short it's no wonder you missed it whizzing by. As I recall she sings beautifully on the 1960s EMI _Elijah._


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## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

Parley said:


> I can't see why on earth we are comparing these two singers as Jones had a German repertoire which (unless I am unaware of it) Milanov did not.


I see your point, but this aria definitely paints her in a favorable light. I think it's an exception that works in her favor rather than against it.


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## Parley (May 29, 2021)

Woodduck said:


> That prime was so short it's no wonder you missed it whizzing by. As I recall she sings beautifully on the 1960s EMI _Elijah._


I have the Elijah (with D F-D) and would agree. I'm sorry I missed the point of the original comparison but would say that Jones sings very beautifully indeed. She actually had a breakthrough in 1962 when she stepped in for the indisposed Leontyne Price. She had a remarkable career ending up in the movies, making a guest appearance in Quartet, a film by Dustin Hoffman, based on the comedy by Ronald Harwood about several retired opera singers planning to put on a concert to celebrate Verdi's birthday. She takes on the role of Anne Langley, a former operatic rival to Jean Horton, played by Maggie Smith. The film was premiered to largely favourable reviews on 9 September at the 2012 Toronto International Film Festival, and Jones's performance was critically acclaimed. 
I think it's generally accepted her voice was uneven later on but she made up for it with the sheer drama of her stage presence as in the Boulez Ring. An astounding dramatic artist.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Parley said:


> I have the Elijah (with D F-D) and would agree. I'm sorry I missed the point of the original comparison but would say that Jones sings very beautifully indeed. She actually had a breakthrough in 1962 when she stepped in for the indisposed Leontyne Price. She had a remarkable career ending up in the movies, making a guest appearance in Quartet, a film by Dustin Hoffman, based on the comedy by Ronald Harwood about several retired opera singers planning to put on a concert to celebrate Verdi's birthday. She takes on the role of Anne Langley, a former operatic rival to Jean Horton, played by Maggie Smith. The film was premiered to largely favourable reviews on 9 September at the 2012 Toronto International Film Festival, and Jones's performance was critically acclaimed.
> I think it's generally accepted her voice was uneven later on but she made up for it with the sheer drama of her stage presence as in the Boulez Ring. An astounding dramatic artist.


Well put. She was also so beautiful in the Boulez Ring, which added to the vocal fireworks. You can't take your eyes off of her onstage. She reminds me a bit of Varnay. Her big scene with her mother in Elektra with Rysenek is the most intense performance I've ever seen and they say her high notes could pin you to the back of your chair in the opera house. Of that scene some call it Godzilla vs. Mothra LOL I came late to the Jones fan club but for what she was I think she was incredible.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Seattleoperafan said:


> Well put. She was also so beautiful in the Boulez Ring, which added to the vocal fireworks. You can't take your eyes off of her onstage. She reminds me a bit of Varnay. Her big scene with her mother in Elektra with Rysenek is the most intense performance I've ever seen and they say her high notes could pin you to the back of your chair in the opera house. Of that scene some call it Godzilla vs. Mothra LOL I came late to the Jones fan club but for what she was I think she was incredible.


I saw her three times at Covent Garden. I know I saw her in the Zeffirelli *Tosca*, but I honestly can't remember much about it. I remember more of her Marschallin (with Brigitte Fassbaender and Edith Mathis), which was wonderful, if not so memorable as Dernesch's. Then, quite late in her career, I saw her as Salome. The voice was absolutelty enormous, but its emission was a bit hit and miss. Sometimes top notes emerged rock steady and others they wobbled around all over the place. Despite her age, she managed to suspend disbelief and dramatically was most convincing, that is, until she disrobed in the Dance of the Seven Veils. This was the famous Peter Hall production in which the original Salome, his wife Maria Ewing, had stripped down to nothing. Jones didn't do that, but wore a rather ill fitting body stocking, which rather destroyed the illusion.


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## Azol (Jan 25, 2015)

Dame Gwyneth Jones has my vote! Who would have believed it! Tender, vulnerable, precise and trills?!? Wow.
Milanow nails the aria (not the best audio quality though) from technical standpoint, but for voice/stage acting Jones is the clear winner. I'm speechless. Thanks Bonetan!


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