# Renowned Singers You Just....Don't Like



## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

for clarification, "renowned" is different than "famous", because it's relatively easy to bash current singers like "pfft! I can't stand Netrebko or Flores!"

with that being said:


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

Birgit Nilsson ... for all the great things that can be said about her, I just dislike her voice, the timbre annoys me.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

*Fernando de Lucia. *The _caprino_ vibrato just annoys me.
*Giovanni Martinelli.* The opposite of de Lucia. His almost vibratoless howling makes me run for the exit.
*Kathleen Ferrier.* Don't ask me why. Such a lovely person, too.
*Astrid Varnay.* A dark, cutting, heavy sound. She's fine as a mezzo playing evil characters (Ortrud).
*Martha Modl.* Her pushy, chesty vocal production seems powered by a bellows. _Bellow canto_?
*Peter Pears.* Why couldn't Ben have fallen for someone with a prettier tone?
*Jan Peerce *and *Richard Tucker.* Fine tenors I respect more than like.
*Joan Sutherland* and *Marilyn Horne.* In both cases I like their early work more than their later. 
*Sherrill Milnes.* Again, fine early on, but later something odd happened to his voice above the staff. It sounds like yawning.
*Dietrich Fischer-Dieskau,* especially later as he began to overinterpret and sing inappropriate (dramatic) repertoire. 
*Leontyne Price,* who got sort of husky, croony and "gospelish" after her early recordings. 
*Renee Fleming* when she can't keep her secret desire to be a jazz singer in check, which is too often. At other times I can enjoy her greatly.
*Cecilia Bartoli.* Great singer who just needs to sing behind a screen.

That'll do for starters.


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## IgorS (Jan 7, 2018)

Marilyn Horne - most disgusting voice I've ever heard
Cecilia Bartoli - sorry, this one even worse


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## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

1) Beverly Sills. impressive fioratura, but...meh, kinda girly sounding. 
2) Marilyn Horne, sounds like a cross between a cafeteria lady and a countertenor. whatever technique she is using is not something I'm a fan of :/ 
3) wasn't going to mention Cecilia Bartoli since she's more recent, but...yeah. too histrionic and aspirated for my tastes.
4) Jessye Norman: too much over-interpretation and manipulation of the voice. also...she is a mezzo, possibly a contralto. definitely not soprano.


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## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

Woodduck said:


> *Astrid Varnay.* A dark, cutting, heavy sound. She's fine as a mezzo playing evil characters (Ortrud).


yup. she was as soprano as George London was tenor. incidentally though, there is a marvelous recording of her singing Klytemnestra when she's really old which is marvelous.



> *Martha Modl.* Her pushy, chesty vocal production seems powered by a bellows. _Bellow canto_?


100% agreed



> *Joan Sutherland* and *Marilyn Horne.* In both cases I like their early work more than their later.


reluctantly agreed



> *Sherrill Milnes.* Again, fine early on, but later something odd happened to his voice above the staff. It sounds like yawning.


it's a lazy compensation mechanism to prevent the voice from breaking. Leontyne Price did it too



> *Dietrich Fischer-Dieskau,* especially later as he began to overinterpret and sing inappropriate (dramatic) repertoire.


THAT'S who I was forgetting. ironically, his wife is a fantastic, tremendously underrated soprano who is 10x better than he was



> *Leontyne Price,* who got sort of husky, croony and "gospelish" after her early recordings.


agreed, though sometimes I appreciate it anyway in the right rep.



> *Renee Fleming* when she can't keep her secret desire to be a jazz singer in check, which is too often. At other times I can enjoy her greatly.


I liked her earlier rep when she stuck to lyric roles and took less liberties of interpretation



> *Cecilia Bartoli.* Great singer who just needs to sing behind a screen.


agreed except for the "great singer" part


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

I'm not much into negative threads like this, so I'll just say I'd agree with some of the above without saying which ones...


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Tsaraslondon said:


> I'm not much into negative threads like this, so I'll just say I'd agree with some of the above without saying which ones...


Oh, that Tsaras! If he isn't the coy one now!


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

BalalaikaBoy said:


> yup. she was as soprano as George London was tenor. incidentally though, there is a marvelous recording of her singing Klytemnestra when she's really old which is marvelous.


Varnay was quite a fine soprano when she started out. You've heard that wonderful Sieglinde from 1941?



> THAT'S who I was forgetting. ironically, his wife is a fantastic, tremendously underrated soprano who is 10x better than he was


Julia Varady. Yes, excellent soprano. But you're too hard on F-D. He was outstanding in proper rep, and his early recordings (from the '50s), including even his Kurwenal under Furtwangler, are splendid. I've never cared much for his timbre, however.



> agreed except for the "great singer" part


Why don't you think Bartoli is a great singer? Tone, range, agility.... I just don't want to watch her gyrations.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Woodduck said:


> Oh, that Tsaras! If he isn't the the coy one now!


Oh ok.

Joan Sutherland - can't stand the mushy diction and droopy portamenti
Birgit Nilsson - I just don't like the sound of her voice 
Zinka Milanov - dull dull dull
Nellie Melba - ditto
Cecilia Bartoli - can't stand the physical mannersims. I can see them even when I'm just listening to her.
Ian Bostridge - ditto

Edited to add that there are others I have disliked at one time or another, or at various times in their careers but still quite like in general.

I should also add that I like Sutherland up to about _The Art of the Prima Donna_ and I do quite like her Turandot (though the diction is still not great).

Elektra is the only role I can take Nilsson in, but then I don't much like the opera.


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## wkasimer (Jun 5, 2017)

Becca said:


> Birgit Nilsson ... for all the great things that can be said about her, I just dislike her voice, the timbre annoys me.


I agree with you, based on her recordings. But I suspect that those who are most lavish in their praise are people who heard Nilsson live.


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## wkasimer (Jun 5, 2017)

Woodduck said:


> *Giovanni Martinelli.* The opposite of de Lucia. His almost vibratoless howling makes me run for the exit.


An old friend used to compare Martinelli's voice to "old shoe leather". But have you heard his acoustic recordings? The tone is pretty straight even then, but at least the voice has some juice to it.



> *Peter Pears.* Why couldn't Ben have fallen for someone with a prettier tone?


BLASPHEMER!!!!



> *Cecilia Bartoli.* Great singer who just needs to sing behind a screen.


Actually, her physical mannerisms bother me less than her vocal ones. Much as I love the energy of singing, after five minutes or so I need some sense of repose, which she never, ever provides.


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## wkasimer (Jun 5, 2017)

Placido Domingo. To me, he always sounds the same - like a man trying to pass a kidney stone.

Elisabeth Schwarzkopf. Like fingernails scraping against a chalkboard.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

wkasimer said:


> .
> 
> Elisabeth schwarzkopf. Like fingernails scraping against a chalkboard.


*BLASPHEMER!!!!!!!* (How did you manage the capitals, by the way? Every time I post it converts them to lower case).


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

wkasimer said:


> I agree with you, based on her recordings. But I suspect that those who are most lavish in their praise are people who heard Nilsson live.


I know people who heard her live and they indeed said that the voice sounded quite different in the opera house.


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## wkasimer (Jun 5, 2017)

Tsaraslondon said:


> *(How did you manage the capitals, by the way? Every time I post it converts them to lower case).*


*

I use the [shift] key. *


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

wkasimer said:


> I use the [shift] key.


Ah, I see. It's just caps lock that isn't recognised.


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

Zinka (except for her wonderful pianissimos)
Albanese who sounds like a little old grandmother. (Respect for her ability to envelop a role and bring magic to the character.)
Bartoli aspirating - sounds too much like a machine gun
Jan Peerce over-the-top dramatics

Singers I adore with flaws:
Callas-her wobbly highs
Corelli-his lisp and terrible macho Romeo
Renee- her breathy swoops and jazz scoops
Bergonzi- his "shush" sound
Bjoerling- his sucked-in breath sound
Sutherland-her mushy middle
Tebaldi-her short of top high notes
Del Monaco-his short of top high notes
Olivero-her gulping glottal attacks
Lanza- his higher than high top notes
Pertile-nasal in the mask
Leontyne-her swoops


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

Kiri Te Kanawa - or as I like to think of her - Kiri Te Canny sing! The Scots will get that!

No soul at all to my ears.


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

Becca said:


> Birgit Nilsson ... for all the great things that can be said about her, I just dislike her voice, the timbre annoys me.


SNAP! (However, she IS my favourite Turandot, the icey tone works in that role). I don't like Swedish sopranos in general, but I think that is because I don't like the sound of spoken swedish, it just isn't attractive to my ear.

N.


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

Tsaraslondon said:


> Oh ok.
> 
> Joan Sutherland - can't stand the mushy diction and droopy portamenti
> Birgit Nilsson - I just don't like the sound of her voice
> ...


Other than Sutherland (I'm prepared to put up with the mushy diction in return for the powerful, yet crystal clear coloratura I agree totally.

N.


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## Sieglinde (Oct 25, 2009)

Agree on Fisher-Dieskau - the one role I actually liked him in is Rodrigo (in that German language Don Carlos because it was amazingly gay). But generally not a fan of his voice, and I prefer Lieder with Bostridge. 

Paul Plishka - nice voice. Zero acting range.

Ruggero Raimondi - he just gives me the creeps. No idea why. Every role. 

Louis Quilico - only seen him as Rodrigo but he was atrocious and had no business being in a Met production. Couldn't they have gotten Milnes? Or Cappuccilli? He ruins an otherwise perfect cast. 

Jon Vickers - great in Wagner. Absolutely loathe him as Grimes. He overacts like the lovechild of Boris Godunov and William Shatner. 

Kurt Rydl and Hans-Peter König - overrated at Wagner. Mediocre Hagens. 

Hildegard Behrens - should never have sung Brünnhilde. 

Robert Tear - can a singer have negative points in Charisma? Because he did. 

Philip Kang. Very weak Hagen. Saw him as Filippo in a more recent (and overall excellent) Seoul Don Carlo. Still weak but Now With Wobble. The Grand Inquisitor had him for breakfast.

Bryn Terfel. He just lacks elegance and style. His Scarpia is brutish and plebeian. His Wotan is decent but doesn't move me. (I remember that ROH Ring where he sang Wotan and Tomlinson had to replace him in Siegfried. Terfel's Wotan compared to Tomlinson's is like Skyrim Dark Brotherhood vs. Oblivion Dark Brotherhood.) 

Fabio Sartori. Literally The Blob from X-Men comics. And not particularly impressive voice either. Can't act at all. 

James Morris. Can be very good in the right repertoire (Wagner) but every villain he plays is the exact same. His Iago is no different from his Claggart or Scarpia (also, no idea why he has a monopoly over Claggart at the Met, he isn't a real bass to begin with). 

Alastair Miles - boring, dry voice. Not much acting either. 

Leo Nucci - yes, he can Verdi pretty well, but like... please ******* retire already.


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## Tuoksu (Sep 3, 2015)

*Marilyn Horne*: Her fake nasal sound (trying to sound like Ponselle) and her ugly timbre are just too much. She's also conceited and somehow thinks she's a masterful technician while her masterclasses are cringe-wrothy.

*Joan sutherland*: Can't stand the old lady can't-open-her-mouth sound. She's still very satisfying in fioriture and coloratura and that kind of redeems her though. Probably the only singer whose voice I love so much yet can't stand at the same time.

*Leontyne Price*: I don't see how on earth people think her voice is beautiful. She's overly hoarse and husky and sounds like she smokes 10 packs of cigarettes everyday or is singing through a tube (which would make her the Netrebko of her day, except she's a much better singer and artist.)

*Dolora Zajick:* She has a good, developed chest voice worthy of a mezzo, but I just can't stand her weird middle/top and the terrible vibrato she uses trying to make her upper register "more resonant".

* Pretty much everyone singing today*: I have to break this down a little:

The Overweight singers (Meade, Barton, Goerke, Wilson, you name it): And this has nothing to do with their looks. These are supposed to be the "dramatic" ones based solely on their appearance apparently. They are not dramatic voices. They have this hideous "American" vibrato and no real chest voice. They capitalize on being relatively loud compared to their tiny colleagues, and their voices are just downright ugly and unimpressive. 




The fashion Models (Netrebko, Sierra, Garifullina, Fleming, Pretty Yende, Damrau..) : These are supposed to be the lyric singers. They are POPera singers who can barely be heard without a microphone and their classical-crossover-bordering-on-broadway timbre seriously makes me cringe, especially Garifullina and the way she sing "je.ve.vivhhhvre.he.he". They should be left out of the Opera house productions and just stick to their concerts with Boccelli. As far as I'm concerned that's where they belong.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Tuoksu said:


> [*]The fashion Models (Netrebko, Sierra, Garifullina, Fleming, Pretty Yende, Damrau..) : These are supposed to be the lyric singers. They are POPera singers who can barely be heard without a microphone and their classical-crossover-bordering-on-broadway timbre seriously makes me cringe, especially Garifullina and the way she sing "je.ve.vivhhhvre.he.he". They should be left out of the Opera house productions and just stick to their concerts with Boccelli. As far as I'm concerned that's where they belong.
> [/LIST]


I take exception to your inclusion of Fleming at least on this list. I sometimes have a problem with the jazzy portamenti she uses, but, for a lyric soprano, her voice is plenty loud enough, I can tell you - something I know from having heard at the Met and also because I worked with her (standing right next to her in *A Streetcar Named Desire*). The voice itself is surpassingly beautiful and has plenty of power to ride some quite heavy orchestration. She is also a thinking artist (sometimes too much so) and a very gracious lady.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Dear God, we have some tough critics around here. I didn't realize what a sweet, generous little old man I am.


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

Tuoksu said:


> * Pretty much everyone singing today*: I have to break this down a little:
> 
> The Overweight singers (Meade, Barton, Goerke, Wilson, you name it): And this has nothing to do with their looks. These are supposed to be the "dramatic" ones based solely on their appearance apparently. They are not dramatic voices. They have this hideous "American" vibrato and no real chest voice. They capitalize on being relatively loud compared to their tiny colleagues, and their voices are just downright ugly and unimpressive.
> 
> ...


Cruel, but fair.


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## wkasimer (Jun 5, 2017)

Tsaraslondon said:


> I take exception to your inclusion of Fleming at least on this list.


I agree. I'm not a big Fleming fan, but I've heard her on multiple occasions in Boston and at the Met, and she has plenty of voice.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

wkasimer said:


> I agree. I'm not a big Fleming fan, but I've heard her on multiple occasions in Boston and at the Met, and she has plenty of voice.


And a beautiful tone, and a fine technique. She's a great singer. She's just what used to be called a "song stylist" who needs to stop trying to do something to every note and just SING.


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

Tsaraslondon said:


> I take exception to your inclusion of Fleming at least on this list. I sometimes have a problem with the jazzy portamenti she uses, but, for a lyric soprano, her voice is plenty loud enough, I can tell you - something I know from having heard at the Met and also because I worked with her (standing right next to her in *A Streetcar Named Desire*). The voice itself is surpassingly beautiful and has plenty of power to ride some quite heavy orchestration. She is also a thinking artist (sometimes too much so) and a very gracious lady.


Totally agree with this and add Netrebko who also has much more power to her voice than you're giving her credit for and is definitely no shrinking violet.


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## Meyerbeer Smith (Mar 25, 2016)

Barbebleu said:


> Kiri Te Kanawa - or as I like to think of her - Kiri Te Canny sing! The Scots will get that!
> 
> No soul at all to my ears.


I thought it was "cannae"?


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## Meyerbeer Smith (Mar 25, 2016)

Domingo, in some things. He's excellent in Verdi and Puccini - but his French pronunciation is dreadful, and he tends to sing each role the same way. He's the opposite of Nicolai Gedda, who manages to sound authentic in any repertoire.

Samuel Ramey.


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## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

Dr. Shatterhand said:


> Domingo, in some things. He's excellent in Verdi and Puccini - but his French pronunciation is dreadful, and he tends to sing each role the same way. He's the opposite of Nicolai Gedda, who manages to sound authentic in any repertoire.


agreed



> Samuel Ramey.


 I'm speechless


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## Reichstag aus LICHT (Oct 25, 2010)

As already mentioned, Alastair Miles, for his dry timbre. And Theo Adam, for the same reason.


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## KRoad (Jun 1, 2012)

Maria Callas - sings as if she has a hot potato in her mouth and her vocal timbre just doesn't do it for me.


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## Bellinilover (Jul 24, 2013)

I actually love that "yawning" sound of Sherrill Milnes', and I know of other listeners who find it appealing as well. I don't think there's anything "lazy" or incorrect about it; rather, I think it's a combination of "trinken die Luft" (literally, "drink the air"--what we would call "open throat") and a personal quality.

I don't like Elisabeth Schwarzkopf, Giuseppe Di Stefano, Gabriel Bacquier, Roberto Alagna, Kathleen Battle, Rockwell Blake, Alfredo Kraus, or most Verdi baritones from Italy (Giuseppe de Luca and Giorgio Zancanaro are exceptions).


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

I often love early Callas, but with a few exceptions I don't care much for her singing after she lost weight with a few exceptions like her Bell Song. 
I enjoy early Debbie Voigt but not at all after she had her gastric bypass.
I LOVE early Rita Hunter, but hate her voice after it developed a heavy vibrato.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Seattleoperafan said:


> I often love early Callas, but with a few exceptions I don't care much for her singing after she lost weight with a few exceptions like her Bell Song.
> I enjoy early Debbie Voigt but not at all after she had her gastric bypass.
> I LOVE early Rita Hunter, but hate her voice after it developed a heavy vibrato.


The difference between a singer's early and later voice seems to come up often here. Voices rarely change for the better.


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

Singers I try to avoid if possible:
Alfredo Krauss
Placido Domingo
Luciano Pavarotti
Sherrill Milnes
Marilyn Horne
Cecelia Bartoli
Joan Sutherland
Vinson Cole
Otto Wiener


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

Omar Godknow .......


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## Meyerbeer Smith (Mar 25, 2016)

Florence Foster Jenkins...?


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Becca said:


> Omar Godknow .......


Godknows who that is.


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

Dr. Shatterhand said:


> I thought it was "cannae"?


Both are perfectly acceptable. Depends how posh you are!:lol:


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Bellinilover said:


> I actually love that "yawning" sound of Sherrill Milnes', and I know of other listeners who find it appealing as well. I don't think there's anything "lazy" or incorrect about it; rather, I think it's a combination of "trinken die Luft" (literally, "drink the air"--what we would call "open throat") and a personal quality.
> 
> I don't like Elisabeth Schwarzkopf, Giuseppe Di Stefano, Gabriel Bacquier, Roberto Alagna, Kathleen Battle, Rockwell Blake, Alfredo Kraus, or most Verdi baritones from Italy (Giuseppe de Luca and Giorgio Zancanaro are exceptions).


Sounds as if you have just about cleared the deck! :lol:


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Woodduck said:


> The difference between a singer's early and later voice seems to come up often here. Voices rarely change for the better.


I personally like more mature Sutherland, but I know that is not a majority opinion.Her high notes improved in size and in sound quality, at least in recordings, and I liked the darker, rounder middle to the voice. Tebaldi actually made some improvements in her voice later on after much work and her later Giocondas were a marvel. Her name is eluding me, but there was a famous Madama Butterfly from the US in the 60's who still sounded 20 when she was 60. On the whole, your observation is correct though.


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

Woodduck said:


> The difference between a singer's early and later voice seems to come up often here. Voices rarely change for the better.


This is true and yet _artists_ tend to mature in terms of interpretation. I've just been listening to Corelli's Cavaradossi arias from his complete DECCA studio recording and comparing them in my head with his earlier recordings of the arias for EMI and prior to that Cetra. The voice was fresher in those Cetras, but by the time of the complete recording he had sung the role numerous times and his performance is all the better for it. I quite often prefer the later recordings of singers as how they sing is as important to me as how they sound.

N.


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

Dr. Shatterhand said:


> Florence Foster Jenkins...?


You have no sense of humour...

N.


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

Placido Domingo (as a baritone), Renee Fleming and Francesco Meli are the main ones when it comes to singers who are still singing today.

Domingo isn't a baritone and he has about one workable octave, he should have retired shortly after having done Simon Boccanegra (it was an interesting experiment, but the emperor has no voice now).

Meli has strained, ugly, shouty high notes and nothing in the way of intelligence, style, interpretative gifts or beauty of tone to compensate.

Fleming just isn't musical. She should never have done bel canto as she has no sense of the style of that music and can't even create intelligible phrases from a musical point of view, let alone make sense of the meaning of the words. I like some of her Strauss recordings on disc (but oddly she is quite different live). I like her CD recording of Thais and she suits the soft, vague beauty of the French style. I could never understand what people saw in her until I went to a recital of Zemlinsky, Korngold and other German song of that era, which is a niche that works well for her. In one of the encores I couldn't watch her mannered delivery anymore and closed my eyes and really listened to the voice, just as a voice without paying attention to the words and I realised that it was a supremely _beautiful_ sound. That's why people like her, but as Callas said a beautiful voice isn't enough.

N.


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## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

A bit surprised by people who don't like Samuel Ramey. I actually think he's tremendously UNDERrated and has a voice like a conquering king. Never have I seen another bass with that level of vocal and theatrical charisma.



The Conte said:


> Placido Domingo (as a baritone), Renee Fleming and Francesco Meli are the main ones when it comes to singers who are still singing today.
> 
> Domingo isn't a baritone and he has about one workable octave, he should have retired shortly after having done Simon Boccanegra (it was an interesting experiment, but the emperor has no voice now).
> 
> ...


^this. all this


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

The Conte said:


> This is true and yet _artists_ tend to mature in terms of interpretation. I've just been listening to Corelli's Cavaradossi arias from his complete DECCA studio recording and comparing them in my head with his earlier recordings of the arias for EMI and prior to that Cetra. The voice was fresher in those Cetras, but by the time of the complete recording he had sung the role numerous times and his performance is all the better for it. I quite often prefer the later recordings of singers as how they sing is as important to me as how they sound.
> 
> N.


Sure. Maturing artistry is what compensates (sometimes) for vocal decline. On the other hand, I'm moved to reflect on the fact that singers with excessively large brains can overinterpret, and that the temptation to do so may increase as a singer has less sheer voice to rely on. Fischer-Dieskau is the classic case of a singer who, as he aged, seemed increasingly to engage in interpretive signaling, as if there was some meaning to be found in every vowel and consonant. Obsessive detailing seems particularly a temptation for Lieder singers, who have to tell a story or present a little drama in a few minutes on a bare stage. Ira Siff, as Madame Vera in one of his parody routines, once humorously referred to the "long and literary careers" of "Dietrich Fischer-That Cow" and "Betty Blackhead." And I seem to recall Anna Russell remarking wryly about aging Lieder singers that the less voice they have the greater they become.

I'm sure many people enjoy hearing singers rack their brains for "special effects," but there's a balance to be struck between intellect, spontaneity, and sheer vocalism. Simplicity and naturalness are desirable goals in "art that conceals art": except in comedy, we want to feel that interpretation arises from musical necessity, not from cleverness and contrivance.


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

Having just been reading the Schwarzkopf/Legge book _On and Off the Record_, it seems that the person who needs to be held accountable for the word-by-word interpretation of lieder is Walter Legge. There are many references in the book to how he spent hours working with both Schwarzkopf and D F-D on each and every song.


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

"...it is also true that Walter offered me a recording contract and it is also true that I refused to sign it until he listened to me at a proper audition. Such an audition was set up and at the appointed time Walter appeared accompanied by Herbert von Karajan. What is also true is that this strange Englishman who spoke accent-free German asked me to sing Wolf's "Wer rief Dich den?" It is further true that this stranger had me sing the last phrase in untold different ways, colors and expressions until - after an hour - Karajan fled, mumbling "This is pure sadism". Walter kept on polishing the phrase for almost another hour" - Elisabeth Schwarzkopf


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

^^^That's fascinating. Producers, it seems, are apt to be frustrated performers. Maybe we can say that "those who can, do; those who can't, produce." Karajan, on the other hand, appears to have been a frustrated producer.


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## Open Book (Aug 14, 2018)

Nathan Gunn - Dry, probably from age
Otherwise I'm most fussy about tenors:
Jonas Kaufman - Leathery voice. Tenors should sound golden. His voice is dark brown.
Peter Pears - Is he even a classical tenor? His voice just sounds odd, untrained to me. It has no edge to it.
Peter Schreier - Too acidic; often the weakest link in opera recordings. Has done some good oratorio work, though.
Ian Bostridge - Overly precious and effete


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Becca said:


> "...it is also true that Walter offered me a recording contract and it is also true that I refused to sign it until he listened to me at a proper audition. Such an audition was set up and at the appointed time Walter appeared accompanied by Herbert von Karajan. What is also true is that this strange Englishman who spoke accent-free German asked me to sing Wolf's "Wer rief Dich den?" It is further true that this stranger had me sing the last phrase in untold different ways, colors and expressions until - after an hour - Karajan fled, mumbling "This is pure sadism". Walter kept on polishing the phrase for almost another hour" - Elisabeth Schwarzkopf


I know people used to talk disparagingly about Schwarzkopf being "Her Master's Voice" and there is some truth in the statement, but she also worked with a lot of different conductors and accompanists with whom she often got markedly different results. In fact she recorded many songs more than once and none of the interpretations is quite the same. On the ther hand Legge's method of working suited her well and wasn't that different from the way she had worked on technique wih Maria Ivogün.

She was also remarkably self-aware and knew that she went on singing too long. She continued because Legge wanted her to and in fact cancelled all her engagements the day after he died. Her comments in _Elisabeth Schwarzkopf - A Career on Record_ are very revealing.



> "My voice was on the waning side, and all kinds of muscular powers had gone, and the breathing had gone. You can hear that the voice was getting old, surely. And one doesn't like that and one tries to make do with all kinds of funny vowels, and oh dear it is really an awful thing. Everybody has different difficulties, certainly, so the problems will be different for every singer. Anyway mine was mostly intonation, I think, and breathing power, not the timbre so much as the intonation, which I tried to make do with all kinds of colouring of vowels, and so on, which no non-singer can understand - why one does it. They wouldn't. it's no good explaining to anyone who is not a singer."
> ...."You can do it, meine Schatz, you can do it, you sing that - you'll do it better." [Legge] was wrong there. I wouldn't have been better than people in full bloom of the voice. He thought there would be some moments which would be more memorable. But if you don't have the voice you cannot put over what you would like to - you make ways round it tehcnically, and by that time it has already vanished.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

^^^An extraordinarily intelligent woman. But of course we knew that from her performances.


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## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

Luisa Tettrazinni. possibly the only opera singer with an OVER developed chest voice I've ever seen


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

BalalaikaBoy said:


> Luisa Tettrazinni. possibly the only opera singer with an OVER developed chest voice I've ever seen


I don't know what that means. Can you provide examples? I find her voice splendidly developed in all registers, not to mention awesomely employed. She's one of the singers I most regret not being able to hear on modern recordings, as the voice seems to have been huge and brilliant.

Hmmm... Since you say "seen" rather than "heard," perhaps you mean an overdeveloped _chest?_


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## Tuoksu (Sep 3, 2015)

BalalaikaBoy said:


> Luisa Tettrazinni. possibly the only opera singer with an OVER developed chest voice I've ever seen


blasphemy! she couldn't be more perfect


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## Sieglinde (Oct 25, 2009)

Oh boi, I had so much misfortune having to put up with Meli. He's Adorno EVERYWHERE. And his recent Manrico is Madrid... they realy couldn't find someone vocally better and less boring? Am I supposed to believe Leonora would be into him over Ludovic Tézier's elegance and his gorgeous voice? Not to mention Tézier wins in the hair department too.


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

Sieglinde said:


> Oh boi, I had so much misfortune having to put up with Meli. He's Adorno EVERYWHERE. And his recent Manrico is Madrid... they realy couldn't find someone vocally better and less boring? Am I supposed to believe Leonora would be into him over Ludovic Tézier's elegance and his gorgeous voice? Not to mention Tézier wins in the hair department too.


Here the Di Luna vs. Manrico issue is very much evident.

N.


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## Tuoksu (Sep 3, 2015)

The Conte said:


> Here the Di Luna vs. Manrico issue is very much evident.
> 
> N.


Yes, Manrico doesn't sing il balen.


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## wkasimer (Jun 5, 2017)

Open Book said:


> Nathan Gunn - Dry, probably from age.


That's a shame. I haven't heard Gunn in several years, but when I first heard him in Boston, at the beginning of his career, I thought that he had one of the most beautiful voices I'd ever heard.

He's only 48, BTW - not very old for a baritone.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

wkasimer said:


> That's a shame. I haven't heard Gunn in several years, but when I first heard him in Boston, at the beginning of his career, I thought that he had one of the most beautiful voices I'd ever heard.
> 
> He's only 48, BTW - not very old for a baritone.


He was terrific when I heard him as Billy Budd at the Barbican in 2007, but I guess that's 12 years ago now.


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## Sieglinde (Oct 25, 2009)

Tuoksu said:


> Yes, Manrico doesn't sing il balen.


I love roasting Manrico XD


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## Bellinilover (Jul 24, 2013)

DavidA said:


> Sounds as if you have just about cleared the deck! :lol:


Ha, ha! No, the thing about Di Stefano is, I would probably like him had he stuck to "lighter" music such as Neapolitan songs--and I don't mean this in a condescending way at all. I just don't feel his voice had the necessary tonal depth for a role like Mario in TOSCA, and I find him to be emotionally quite limited as well. By contrast, I love Franco Corelli.

Another singer I have a particular dislike for is Leo Nucci.

Regarding Milnes--I just realized that by "yawning" sound the others here are referring to is his habit of "hooking" up to the high notes. Yeah, that can get annoying; in my post above, I was talking about the sort of yawning sound his quiet singing often has. I love that sound (I believe the bass Hans Hotter had it, too).


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Bellinilover said:


> Another singer I have a particular dislike for is Leo Nucci.


Dry as a stick, both vocally and as an actor.


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

Tsaraslondon said:


> Dry as a stick, both vocally and as an actor.


He's great in his earlier roles (Donizetti comedy above all), but I've never liked his Verdi.

N.


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## LouisMasterMusic (Aug 28, 2013)

q


The Conte said:


> He's great in his earlier roles (Donizetti comedy above all), but I've never liked his Verdi.
> 
> N.


 I actually watched a DVD of L'Elisir D'Amore last week with him as Belcore. Villazon and Netrebko are Nemorino and Adina; the production is from the Wiener Staatsoper. I also have Leo Nucci as Germont in La Traviata (the famous performance from the ROH with Angela Gheorghiu, Frank Lopardo and Sir Georg Solti conducting back in 1994). I find the bleating tone very unpleasant. My favourite Verdi baritone (or perhaps, one of my favourites for any repertoire) is Sherril Milnes. He's so committed and really becomes the character he's playing!


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## Bellinilover (Jul 24, 2013)

LouisMasterMusic said:


> q I actually watched a DVD of L'Elisir D'Amore last week with him as Belcore. Villazon and Netrebko are Nemorino and Adina; the production is from the Wiener Staatsoper. I also have Leo Nucci as Germont in La Traviata (the famous performance from the ROH with Angela Gheorghiu, Frank Lopardo and Sir Georg Solti conducting back in 1994). I find the bleating tone very unpleasant. My favourite Verdi baritone (or perhaps, one of my favourites for any repertoire) is Sherril Milnes. He's so committed and really becomes the character he's playing!


I totally agree with you about both Milnes and Nucci. Btw, the former seems to be particularly well-liked in England, while the latter seems to be almost worshipped in Italy for some reason I can't understand.

In fairness to Nucci, however, that DVD of L'ELISIR was made when he was well past his vocal prime.


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

LouisMasterMusic said:


> q I actually watched a DVD of L'Elisir D'Amore last week with him as Belcore. Villazon and Netrebko are Nemorino and Adina; the production is from the Wiener Staatsoper. I also have Leo Nucci as Germont in La Traviata (the famous performance from the ROH with Angela Gheorghiu, Frank Lopardo and Sir Georg Solti conducting back in 1994). I find the bleating tone very unpleasant. My favourite Verdi baritone (or perhaps, one of my favourites for any repertoire) is Sherril Milnes. He's so committed and really becomes the character he's playing!


I agree about Milnes, certainly one of my favourites. He didn't have the most suave of instruments, but he was a great vocal actor. I can't think of any decent Verdi baritones that came after him!

Before Milnes there were a number of superb baritones (for Verdi and otherwise), Gobbi was the supreme singing actor and his Rigoletto, Nabucco, Iago and Falstaff haven't been surpassed. Before him there was Ruffo who had a miraculous voice and Battistini who mixed vocal beauty, technical ease and musicality, such that he may be the greatest all round Italian baritone of all time.

N.


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## Fredrikalansson (Jan 29, 2019)

This is reply to SeattleoperaFan remembering a famous Madame Butterfly from to 60s who sounded 20 when she was 60: Could it have bieen Maria Pellegrini? She fits the bill, except she was born in Italy but became a Canadian citizen?


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