# Which piano sonata is the most beautiful?



## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

I'd probably pick Moonlight Sonata.


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## neoshredder (Nov 7, 2011)

Pathetique for me. That second movement. 💯


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## Highwayman (Jul 16, 2018)

Chris Dench - Piano Sonata (2015/16)


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## clavichorder (May 2, 2011)

For me, Scriabin's 4th piano sonata is the most beautiful.


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## Yabetz (Sep 6, 2021)

Most "beautiful"? Beethoven's #15, Op. 28, the "Pastoral".


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## SoloYH (8 mo ago)

tempest


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

Haydn - Piano Sonata no. 58


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## Luchesi (Mar 15, 2013)

Chopin Bm Sonata


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## Coach G (Apr 22, 2020)

For me the Grieg Sonata. My favorite recording of the Grieg is by Glenn Gould which is interesting as Gould wasn't known for being a champion of those very pretty and decorative High Romantic composers and Gould recorded very little Chopin, Mendelssohn, or Schumann; and yet Gould's Grieg recording is very fine.


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## Highwayman (Jul 16, 2018)

Coach G said:


> For me the Grieg Sonata. My favorite recording of the Grieg is by Glenn Gould which is interesting as Gould wasn't known for being a champion of those very pretty and decorative High Romantic composers and Gould recorded very little Chopin, Mendelssohn, or Schumann; and yet Gould's Grieg recording is very fine.


GG`s maternal grandfather was a cousin of Grieg so maybe that`s why.


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## golfer72 (Jan 27, 2018)

Probably Schuberts last.


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## Waehnen (Oct 31, 2021)

Major key sonatas for me, for I have some problems with Sturm und Drang! 

I would go with these, equally beautiful:

Beethoven: Piano Sonata no. 15 in D Major, Op. 28
Beethoven: Piano Sonata no. 28 in A Major, Op. 101
Beethoven: Piano Sonata no. 30 in E Major, Op. 109
Schubert: Piano Sonata in A Major, D. 959
Schubert: Piano Sonata in Bb Major, D. 960

If you do not care for those sonatas, then you might not like piano music at all. 

I have the Beethoven scores at my piano and play them for myself every once in a while. Along with exploring the rather tricky Liszt Sonata and Brahms F-Minor Sonata (which I am not really practicing, but exploring).


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## TwoFlutesOneTrumpet (Aug 31, 2011)

Impossible to pick just one. The Waldstein.


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## Terrapin (Apr 15, 2011)

Pathetique


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## 13hm13 (Oct 31, 2016)

Cool thread! I'd go with LvB Moonlight. 

BUT ... does this count? (it was featured on every episode's end credits of The Incredible Hulk (1977-1982, CBS tv series ):


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## Rogerx (Apr 27, 2018)

On this moment I will go probably with : _ Liszt: Piano Sonata in B minor, S178


_


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## nobody (5 mo ago)

For me: Mozart – Sonata No 13 In B Flat Major, K 333 – I Allegro


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## StDior (May 28, 2015)

Four way tie: Beethoven op.101 and op.109, Schubert D.894 and Chopin No.3.
If I have to chose only one, it is tough but it might be the Chopin sonata.


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

A genre that I am not crazy about (in general, I care less for solo piano than most TC members). I'd probably go for Beethoven's Piano Sonata No. 8 in C minor "Pathétique".


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## Forster (Apr 22, 2021)

Art Rock said:


> A genre that I am not crazy about (in general, I care less for solo piano than most TC members). I'd probably go for Beethoven's Piano Sonata No. 8 in C minor "Pathétique".


I'm not keen either. Having sampled some of the recommendations so far (those that I didn't already know by LvB) I'm inclined to recommend Berg's no. 1.


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## Waehnen (Oct 31, 2021)

Art Rock said:


> A genre that I am not crazy about (in general, I care less for solo piano than most TC members). I'd probably go for Beethoven's Piano Sonata No. 8 in C minor "Pathétique".


Have you heard Brendel’s Beethoven or late Schubert? Unbelievably rewarding music!


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

Waehnen said:


> Have you heard Brendel’s Beethoven or late Schubert? Unbelievably rewarding music!


Yes, yes, and no (not for me at least). It's fine, but not more than that for me.


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## bagpipers (Jun 29, 2013)

Yabetz said:


> Most "beautiful"? Beethoven's #15, Op. 28, the "Pastoral".


I love that one too


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## bagpipers (Jun 29, 2013)

My favorite piano sonata is the Schubert in A D959

The Beethoven 15 in D the pastoral is also a big favorite


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## Philidor (11 mo ago)

Difficult ...

Beethoven op. 57 & 106 & 110 & 111
Liszt B minor
Scriabin #9 & #10
Prokofiev #6 & #7
Ives Concord Sonata
Boulez #2

... are obvious candidates for a title like "most attractive piano sonata", but how to elect "the most beautiful piano sonata"?

Is the concept of beauty thus relevant? Isn't music so much more than just beauty? E. g., truth.


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## dko22 (Jun 22, 2021)

probably D960. Between them, Schubert and Prokofiev have written most of my favourite sonatas with Beethoven coming in an honourable third.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Captainnumber36 said:


> I'd probably pick Moonlight Sonata.


And I’d probably pick Radulescu’s 6th piano sonata as played by Pavlos Antoniadis on soundcloud.


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## Waehnen (Oct 31, 2021)

Art Rock said:


> Yes, yes, and no (not for me at least). It's fine, but not more than that for me.


You have no right! 😳


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## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

The one that really caught my ear more recently is Beethoven's 30th.


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## Luchesi (Mar 15, 2013)

Schubert's op 120 in A


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## bagpipers (Jun 29, 2013)

Luchesi said:


> Schubert's op 120 in A


Good suggestion I'm listening to that now (Andras Schiff)


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## Pat Fairlea (Dec 9, 2015)

Most beautiful? Well, that should prompt some highly rational, objective replies!
Of which this is not one.
I would probably nominate Beethoven Op.110. But with an honourable mention for Greig's Sonata.


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## Luchesi (Mar 15, 2013)

bagpipers said:


> Good suggestion I'm listening to that now (Andras Schiff)


I was happy to see that Schiff had recorded all of the earlier Schubert sonatas decades ago. Groupings of them were available on YouTube.


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## bagpipers (Jun 29, 2013)

Slightly off topic but the BSO Tanglewood is doing the full 5 Beethoven concerto cycle this weekend with Paul Lewis on piano and Andris Nelsons conducting.


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## Gallus (Feb 8, 2018)

Many good shouts here. Beethoven 30 comes to mind for me.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

Op.106/iv





K.497/iii


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## Bernamej (Feb 24, 2014)

Scriabin’s Sonate-Fantaisie, Liszt, Rach’s second, Chopin’s third, Medtner has a bunch of great ones, Prokofiev 7.


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## Bernamej (Feb 24, 2014)

hammeredklavier said:


> Op.106/iv
> 
> 
> 
> ...


No Michael Haydn ?


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## 444mil (May 27, 2018)

Schubert 959.
Beethoven op. 110
Chopin op. 58
Prokofiev #7

Any Scriabin, 2,4,5


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## DaveM (Jun 29, 2015)

Beethoven #32, op111:


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## Luchesi (Mar 15, 2013)

DaveM said:


> Beethoven #32, op111:


I often cringe at these conceptions that the cameraman or the director comes up with in these videos. They are so distracting. We should be getting an artistic experience from the sound and idea of LvB. It's not about cinema or how great the technology is these days.

Do you know what I mean? But maybe you think it's well done I don't know..


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## DaveM (Jun 29, 2015)

Luchesi said:


> I often cringe at these conceptions that the cameraman or the director comes up with in these videos. They are so distracting. We should be getting an artistic experience from the sound and idea of LvB. It's not about cinema or how great the technology is these days.
> 
> Do you know what I mean? But maybe you think it's well done I don't know..


The majority of the Barenboim op111 video is focused on the keyboard. This is part of the third Beethoven Sonata series (circa 2006) by Barenboim who has traversed these works over half a century. Personally, I think the video throughout this series is excellent. You rarely get to see this much of the fingering of the op111 Arietta by a true Master. The triple trilling and the right hand trill plus tapping out the motif/melody at the same time leading into the coda is a wonderment and the video shows it more clearly than I’ve ever seen before.


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## Luchesi (Mar 15, 2013)

DaveM said:


> The majority of the Barenboim op111 video is focused on the keyboard. This is part of the third Beethoven Sonata series (circa 2006) by Barenboim who has traversed these works over half a century. Personally, I think the video throughout this series is excellent. You rarely get to see this much of the fingering of the op111 Arietta by a true Master. The triple trilling and the right hand trill plus tapping out the motif/melody at the same time leading into the coda is a wonderment and the video shows it more clearly than I’ve ever seen before.


This could lead to a big argument and I don't want to get that intense about it BUT... Sometimes we're too far away. Why? For some silly cinematic effect? 
I've been griping about this for a long time ever since hi res videos became possible.
It's nice to see the hands but not so close that they fill up the whole screen? and what about close up images of an old man's face? is this what LvB would've approved of? This is not what this music is about. Like I said, it's just so distracting! And why? what story are they trying to create with camera tricks? Bouncing around. Are they listening to the music? can they even really hear the music, or is it just a famous event for them? 

sorry, you won't alienate me if you give me a harsh response. I've long enjoyed your posts.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

Luchesi said:


> what about close up images of an old man's face? is this what LvB would've approved of?


I would certainly have loved to see close up images of this Nehring guy's face as he was making that mistake-


hammeredklavier said:


> _looks up at the ceiling_ (0:25)
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

Luchesi said:


> This is not what this music is about. Like I said, it's just so distracting! And why? what story are they trying to create with camera tricks? Bouncing around. Are they listening to the music? can they even really hear the music, or is it just a famous event for them?


An intense moment. I feel there's a sense of indecision in the actions of the cameraman, as if he's wondering _"Should I focus more on the performer's face, or his fingers, or his full body?"_




(44:44~45:08) Op.106/iv, Barenboim


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## DaveM (Jun 29, 2015)

Luchesi said:


> This could lead to a big argument and I don't want to get that intense about it BUT... Sometimes we're too far away. Why? For some silly cinematic effect?
> I've been griping about this for a long time ever since hi res videos became possible.
> It's nice to see the hands but not so close that they fill up the whole screen? and what about close up images of an old man's face? is this what LvB would've approved of? This is not what this music is about. Like I said, it's just so distracting! And why? what story are they trying to create with camera tricks? Bouncing around. Are they listening to the music? can they even really hear the music, or is it just a famous event for them?
> 
> sorry, you won't alienate me if you give me a harsh response. I've long enjoyed your posts.


All I can tell you is that when this was published in 2006 (the complete 32 sonatas on DVD), it was very well received. The piano sound is some of the best recorded in a live performance I’ve heard and the audience is very well behaved (no coughing etc.). I suppose the format of the video is a personal persuasion, but I am a big Barenboim fan and, as a strictly amateur pianist, I feel like I’m part of a master class watching him play up close and personal.


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## Luchesi (Mar 15, 2013)

DaveM said:


> All I can tell you is that when this was published in 2006 (the complete 32 sonatas on DVD), it was very well received. The piano sound is some of the best recorded in a live performance I’ve heard and the audience is very well behaved (no coughing etc.). I suppose the format of the video is a personal persuasion, but I am a big Barenboim fan and, as a strictly amateur pianist, I feel like I’m part of a master class watching him play up close and personal.


We agree about Barenboim. I remember I bought one of his earliest LPs. I think it was called The Genius, The Titan, The Prodigy - Mozart, Beethoven, Barenboim. It cost seven dollars and that was three times as much as I normally paid for a classical LP back then. He impressed me with so much strength and control, and especially so much confidence in his playing.
In recent years I've labeled him, in my mind, as an orthodox player. Does he ever surprise us?

It just irritates me when videos aren't really concentrating upon showing us the performer attempting to express what's in the music. I don't care about the scenery or the high resolution close ups. We complain about seeing the grimaces of Lang Lang and maybe the dresses of Yula Wang, but these are only minor distractions to me because I know what I should expect, I guess.


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## DaveM (Jun 29, 2015)

Luchesi said:


> We complain about seeing...the dresses of Yuja Wang.


That is against the TOS at TC!


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## fbjim (Mar 8, 2021)

I mainly dislike the ones which show beauty shots of the hammers at work or the strings. I want to see the performers! And not the silly faces they make when they pretend to be channeling Chopin's spirit or something.


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## DaveM (Jun 29, 2015)

IMO, when it comes to a video of pianist playing CM, if it’s from the perspective of sitting in the audience, I say, what’s the point? I’d rather just listen to the music and forget the video. The reason I watch a video is to see how the pianist is playing (and pedaling).


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## Knorf (Jan 16, 2020)

Pierre Boulez: Sonata No. 2.


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## Rogerx (Apr 27, 2018)

Scharwenka, X: Sonate pour piano No. 2 en Mi Bémol Majeur, Op. 36 . wonderful music


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

Luchesi said:


> We complain about seeing the grimaces of Lang Lang


Believe it or not, it was Lang Lang who got me into Prokofiev


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## Luchesi (Mar 15, 2013)

hammeredklavier said:


> Believe it or not, it was Lang Lang who got me into Prokofiev


Yes, I agree that he makes a difficult work (impenetrable to some people) more accessible by his indications (in his face and arms) when he’s impressed and emotionally moved in the different places in a difficult work. It becomes a sort of a running guide for people hearing a complex work for the first time. 
After you know a work throughout, the mannerisms become a little too much in my opinion. But I think he's very good for CM.


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## fbjim (Mar 8, 2021)

Well, I can't really object to a bit of theater and acting in show business, though it's not the kind of thing that appeals to me, hah


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## Luchesi (Mar 15, 2013)

fbjim said:


> Well, I can't really object to a bit of theater and acting in show business, though it's not the kind of thing that appeals to me, hah


You likely have your reasons but you didn't offer any. I'm generally talking about young people and their future appreciation of CM.


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

Luchesi said:


> I often cringe at these conceptions that the cameraman or the director comes up with in these videos. They are so distracting. We should be getting an artistic experience from the sound and idea of LvB. It's not about cinema or how great the technology is these days.
> 
> Do you know what I mean? But maybe you think it's well done I don't know..


I agree. It is annoying to me as well! It's compensating for something in the music.


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## DaveM (Jun 29, 2015)

Captainnumber36 said:


> I agree. It is annoying to me as well! It's compensating for something in the music.


Compensating for what? What needs ’compensating for’ in the Beethoven Piano Sonatas, particularly Op.111?


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

DaveM said:


> Compensating for what? What needs ’compensating for’ in the Beethoven Piano Sonatas, particularly Op.111?


I meant perhaps the performance, not Beethoven.


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## DaveM (Jun 29, 2015)

Captainnumber36 said:


> I meant perhaps the performance, not Beethoven.


Okay, what needed ‘compensating for’ in the performance?


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

DaveM said:


> Okay, what needed ‘compensating for’ in the performance?


I didn't listen. But sometimes when there is fancy video or lighting, it's compensating for something in the music.

Sometimes they are just adding flash when it isn't necessary.


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

Lang Lang has some of my favorite renditions of music. It's not his movements that pull me in, but rather his lush style that I love. That's a different kind of embellishment, but an embellishment indeed. 

I do think he's faking it with his movements a bit, but I'd be lying if I said I didn't think it helped him perform the way he does.


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## DaveM (Jun 29, 2015)

Captainnumber36 said:


> I didn't listen. But sometimes when there is fancy video or lighting, it's compensating for something in the music.


Like what? You keep saying that. The music is separate from the performance. What could there possibly be in the music that requires compensating such as fancy video or lighting or whatnot. Please be specific otherwise it sounds like something just off the top of your head.


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

DaveM said:


> Like what? You keep saying that. The music is separate from the performance. What could there possibly be in the music that requires compensating such as fancy video or lighting or whatnot. Please be specific otherwise it sounds like something just off the top of your head.



Being an interesting work.
Lack of technical prowess.

To name a few.


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## DaveM (Jun 29, 2015)

Captainnumber36 said:


> Being an interesting work.
> Lack of technical prowess.
> To name a few.


Creating a video of a classical music performance requires extra cost and manpower and presumably assumes an audience that is interested in it. Why would anyone bother to create a video that has to compensate for limitations of the music or the artist?


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

DaveM said:


> Creating a video of a classical music performance requires extra cost and manpower and presumably assumes an audience that is interested in it. Why would anyone bother to create a video that has to compensate for limitations of the music or the artist?


Did you ever have a rock and roll phase?


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## DaveM (Jun 29, 2015)

Captainnumber36 said:


> Did you ever have a rock and roll phase?


You and Luchesi were responding to my post about a Barenboim video of a Beethoven sonata in your thread about the most beautiful piano sonata. When did the subject change to rock and roll?


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Without video there’s a very much reduced sense the physicality of the performer responding to the challenge of creating the music. 19th century music is fundamentally about human bodies manipulating objects to produce sounds. It wasn’t supposed to be experienced as disembodied sound like music by Pierre Henri!


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

Waldstein.


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## Luchesi (Mar 15, 2013)

Mandryka said:


> Without video there’s a very much reduced sense the physicality of the performer responding to the challenge of creating the music. 19th century music is fundamentally about human bodies manipulating objects to produce sounds. It wasn’t supposed to be experienced as disembodied sound like music by Pierre Henri!


Thanks, it's a very good point. We can think of LvB foreseeing the coming of the amazing and very entertaining virtuoso performances of his time and the decades later (very physical and descriptive of the never ending struggle, universal for us all).

I can see this as a cinematic essay trying to offer for us the view of the Romantic Spirit. One man against the unfair restrictions of the unraveling universe. And the old, wise, expert man calmly guiding us through what's so good and etc., and then briefly getting louder and more animated, but then reconciling to it all, in the ending.

But the presentation is distracting. We're in a long shot and then the music speeds up and the cameraman says to himself - he’s playing faster now I'd better get closer to his hands ….but I don't want to indicate that I don't know the music so I'll do it gradually, in steps. And then by the time the camera gets there it's all over, the brief eruption in the music has subsided. We missed it. And I think to myself what was that all about? Was it all intentional for the purpose of artistic ambiguity, or was it just a lapse of judgment and preparation? I guess I'd have to ask the camera team.


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

DaveM:

Let me just say, I think camerawork can take on an artistic position when capturing live music, as long as it's tasteful and not compensating for anything lacking in the music itself such as technique or interesting melodies.

I'm also not against light shows either, and think Classical should start using them to enhance the experience.

Please don't unnecessarily nit pick; it doesn't make you look more intelligent, but rather silly IMO.


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## DeepR (Apr 13, 2012)

Schubert D 960 (Richter)
Scriabin's 3rd, mainly for movements 1 and 3 (Horowitz, Sofronitsky)
and while it doesn't count: Volodos' piano solo transcription of the Andante from Rachmaninoff's sonata for Cello and Piano


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## DaveM (Jun 29, 2015)

Captainnumber36 said:


> Please don't unnecessarily nit pick; it doesn't make you look more intelligent, but rather silly IMO.


You talk about nitpicking when this was your response to my posting a video of Barenboim’s performance of the op.111, something you didn’t even watch before responding:



Captainnumber36 said:


> I didn't listen. But sometimes when there is fancy video or lighting, it's compensating for something in the music. Sometimes they are just adding flash when it isn't necessary.


And btw, resorting to an ad hominem is a sign of desperation and not the way to run a thread.


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