# O Mio Babbino Caro contest: Virginia Zeani vs. Maria Callas



## JanacekTheGreat (Feb 26, 2021)

These are probably the only two performances where the singer _is _Lauretta, not a diva singing an opera hit.

Both are studio recordings made when the singers were at their peak. Which one do you prefer?


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## MAS (Apr 15, 2015)

I always admire how Callas can refine the end of phrases so they don't end with an abrupt stop. This aria is very familiar to me - the only time I saw Callas, in recital, she gave us this as a single encore.

I admire Zeani and met her during a run of performances here in San Francisco, totally miscast by Terry McEwen as Mother Marie in *Dialogues of the Carmelites* - he wanted a _coup_ by having Virginia Zeani, Leontyne Price, Régine Crespin in this production with Carol Vaness as Blanche. We had dîner with her and Nicola several times, and the stories she could tell! Unfortunately, she didn't want to write a book.

Yet how could I not vote for Callas?


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Performances like these remind us of why we devote so much of our lives to music. As the OP says, both singers are completely inside the character and deliver the vocal goods as well. Whenever I hear Zeani I'm sad that we don't have more recordings of her.

I suppose Zeani's lighter, brighter tone makes her more of a natural for Lauretta; Callas does one of her magic tricks and transforms her Medea/Gioconda/Tosca voice into her Gilda/Mimi/Butterfly voice. I gather that some people don't care for the obvious artifice of this, but I find it delightful and the mere fact that she can do it impressive. I really can't make myself choose between these two. 

It's interesting to recall that Puccini's first Lauretta was Florence Easton, whose fach-busting repertoire included 100 roles, among them Isolde, Brunnhilde and even Elektra under Strauss's direction. She was not only versatile but a quick study; she learned the role of Aida and sang it in two days. There's a 1918 recording of "O mio babbino caro," sung with appealing simplicity and lovely tone (so far as the awful recording let's us hear it). Her Italian wasn't flawless, but evidently Puccini didn't mind.


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

Woodduck said:


> Performances like these remind us of why we devote so much of our lives to music. As the OP says, both singers are completely inside the character and deliver the vocal goods as well. Whenever I hear Zeani I'm sad that we don't have more recordings of her.
> 
> I suppose Zeani's lighter, brighter tone makes her more of a natural for Lauretta; Callas does one of her magic tricks and transforms her Medea/Gioconda/Tosca voice into her Gilda/Mimi/Butterfly voice. I gather that some people don't care for the obvious artifice of this, but I find it delightful and the mere fact that she can do it impressive. I really can't make myself choose between these two.
> 
> It's interesting to recall that Puccini's first Lauretta was Florence Easton, whose fach-busting repertoire included 100 roles, among them Isolde, Brunnhilde and even Elektra under Strauss's direction. She was not only versatile but a quick study; she learned the role of Aida and sang it in two days. There's a 1918 recording of "O mio babbino caro," sung with appealing simplicity and lovely tone (so far as the awful recording let's us hear it). Her Italian wasn't flawless, but evidently Puccini didn't mind.


Nice post W. I voted Virginia, simply because she just sounded like the character in every aspect. Beautiful vulnerability and an ardent tone did it for me. That and the slightly faster pace.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Lovely performances both, and Zeani no doubt has the more girlish sound, but Callas is a miracle. In just a few lines she reminds us what this aria is all about. It isn't just a lovely tune. This is a young, spoiled girl who is manipulating her dear "daddy" into giving her what she wants. I love the little pout she gets into her tone when she talks about throwing herself into the Arno. This young lady has no doubt managed to get round her dear daddy since she was a child, and she knows just how to go about it. 

I find it impossible not to vote for Callas.


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

Both are top stringers in my list of sopranos but this one was as clear as a bell for me all the way around -- Zeani.


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

MAS said:


> I always admire how Callas can refine the end of phrases so they don't end with an abrupt stop. This aria is very familiar to me - the only time I saw Callas, in recital, she gave us this as a single encore.
> 
> I admire Zeani and met her during a run of performances here in San Francisco, totally miscast by Terry McEwen as Mother Marie in *Dialogues of the Carmelites* - he wanted a _coup_ by having Virginia Zeani, Leontyne Price, Régine Crespin in this production with Carol Vaness as Blanche. We had dîner with her and Nicola several times, and the stories she could tell! Unfortunately, she didn't want to write a book.
> 
> Yet how could I not vote for Callas?


Tut tut! Easy peasy.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

nina foresti said:


> Tut tut! Easy peasy.


Sorry, I don't understand this comment. Why is it _easy peasy_ to vote for Callas?


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

Tsaraslondon said:


> Sorry, I don't understand this comment. Why is it _easy peasy_ to vote for Callas?


Read the posts again...


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## JanacekTheGreat (Feb 26, 2021)

MAS said:


> I always admire how Callas can refine the end of phrases so they don't end with an abrupt stop. This aria is very familiar to me - the only time I saw Callas, in recital, she gave us this as a single encore.
> 
> I admire Zeani and met her during a run of performances here in San Francisco, totally miscast by Terry McEwen as Mother Marie in *Dialogues of the Carmelites* - he wanted a _coup_ by having Virginia Zeani, Leontyne Price, Régine Crespin in this production with Carol Vaness as Blanche. We had dîner with her and Nicola several times, and the stories she could tell! Unfortunately, she didn't want to write a book.
> 
> Yet how could I not vote for Callas?


Thanks for sharing your stories!

While Mother Marie would be a mismatch for Zeani, I doubt the decision was a tribute to the fact that she sang in the first performance (as Blanche) of Dialogues of the Carmelites in Italy. It had a stellar assemble, including Denise Duval, Leyla Gencer, Gigluola Frazzoni and Gianna Pederzini.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

nina foresti said:


> Read the posts again...


I've read them all. Still don't get it.


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## Azol (Jan 25, 2015)

Zeani is beautifully intense and borderline tragic, at least I feel it that way - I enjoyed her rendition and her voice very much!

Callas offers another solution to this little piece - a tongue-in-cheek, manipulative even, plea to her father which suits the music and the overall concept of Gianni Schicchi best. After all, this is the deciding point for Schicchi, ready to storm out of Donati's house, so we can safely assume it is Lauretta who sets the whole plan in motion.

The sound in Callas recording is strange (fake or "ambient" stereo, I believe).

Since it's impossible to vote for both ladies (why shouldn't there be such an option?), Callas takes the garland.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Azol said:


> The sound in Callas recording is strange (fake or "ambient" stereo, I believe).


I thought so too. It sounds much better in the recent Warner transfer. The more natural sound on that version might have tipped the balance back in Callas's favour. The sound on the clip above is altogether too boomy.

I think it sounds better here


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Thanks for this. I wasn't at all familiar with Zeani.
A very surprising contender singing this aria is Nilsson in her mid 60's. One would not suspect this of her but she managed to convey the sound of a younger, more innocent woman. It was some of her best Italian singing and at the end of her career:



. It is only 2 minutes. Check it out.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Seattleoperafan said:


> Thanks for this. I wasn't at all familiar with Zeani.
> A very surprising contender singing this aria is Nilsson in her mid 60's. One would not suspect this of her but she managed to convey both the sound and innocence of a young lady 40 years her junior. It was some of her best Italian singing and at the end of her career:
> 
> 
> ...


That was quite a surprise. The voice is in remarkable shape and she actually sounds warmer here than she often did. I'm not sure I'd agree that she manages to sound quite like a young ingénue, but the singing is charming and direct in manner and works well in its context here. Brava, Birgit.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Seattleoperafan said:


> Thanks for this. I wasn't at all familiar with Zeani.
> A very surprising contender singing this aria is Nilsson in her mid 60's. One would not suspect this of her but she managed to convey both the sound and innocence of a young lady 40 years her junior. It was some of her best Italian singing and at the end of her career:
> 
> 
> ...


Really sweet and charming. She keeps the character in mind and doesn't "prima donna" the thing, but then she never was a show-off. A nice way to start my day. Do you recall the year?


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

Thanks for posting Nilsson's version. It's indeed impressive that the Walkure could turn her art to the simplicity of this aria. Is it that simple though. My favourite recording when it comes to sheer beautiful singing would be De los Angeles' from her complete recording. However, I have always thought that the aria is meant to be a send up of the dramatic aria going by the text. It's debatable whether Puccini felt the same way as he seems to take it rather seriously. In any case we get two great interpretations from the two sopranos here, that are quite different in approach. Zeani goes for the parody route and is deliciously over the top without resorting to camp and Callas gives us the wily, manipulative daughter pulling at her father's heart strings. Callas makes me smile, Zeani makes me grin and since Gianni Schichi is a comedy my vote went to the latter.

N.


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

Tsaraslondon said:


> I've read them all. Still don't get it.


It's _easy peasy_ NOT to vote for Callas. (You just click the circle next to Zeani!)

You could likewise argue that it is just as easy peasy to vote for Callas!

N.


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

Oh I just loved Birgit's rendition which was so sweet and gentle that, though I praise myself on detecting many voices --hers being one of them -- I never would have known it was she.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

The Conte said:


> Thanks for posting Nilsson's version. It's indeed impressive that the Walkure could turn her art to the simplicity of this aria. Is it that simple though. My favourite recording when it comes to sheer beautiful singing would be De los Angeles' from her complete recording. However, I have always thought that the aria is meant to be a send up of the dramatic aria going by the text. It's debatable whether Puccini felt the same way as he seems to take it rather seriously. In any case we get two great interpretations from the two sopranos here, that are quite different in approach. Zeani goes for the parody route and is deliciously over the top without resorting to camp and Callas gives us the wily, manipulative daughter pulling at her father's heart strings. Callas makes me smile, Zeani makes me grin and since Gianni Schichi is a comedy my vote went to the latter.
> 
> N.


I agree with you about De Los Angeles, who simply has to be herself to make the effect she does, but, oddly enough, of the two versions above, it's Callas's that makes me chuckle.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

We few, we happy few, we band of operaphiles! The Conte reports smiling and grinning. Tsaraslondon reports chuckling. I listened to Zeani again this morning, and the sheer vocal mastery of it, the way the voice responds effortlessly to every expressive impulse, brought tears to my eyes. These singing matches have brought us examples of the greatest singing on record; I think immediately of Steber's sublime "Depuis le jour" and Sayao's stunning "Bel raggio"... I still don't know how to weigh these two performances against each other, but I know that opera doesn't get any better. Maybe nothing does.


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## JanacekTheGreat (Feb 26, 2021)

Woodduck said:


> We few, we happy few, we band of operaphiles! The Conte reports smiling and grinning. Tsaraslondon reports chuckling. I listened to Zeani again this morning, and the sheer vocal mastery of it, the way the voice responds effortlessly to every expressive impulse, brought tears to my eyes. These singing matches have brought us examples of the greatest singing on record; I think immediately of Steber's sublime "Depuis le jour" and Sayao's stunning "Bel raggio"... I still don't know how to weigh these two performances against each other, but I know that opera doesn't get any better. Maybe nothing does.


Very well-put, Woodduck!

I know this match will have a very close call. Callas is imaginative as always, but Zeani got everything just right as it could. I don't think she overdramatizes the aria. In contrast, all are well-calculated - the chest voice, the sobs, the sighs- to portray daddy's favorite _cute_ little girl, but still sound fake enough.

One should listen to Renee Fleming's version to see how good intentions to portray the character can fail. She is trying too hard, but it doesn't work.






P/S: It's interesting that you mentioned Sayao. Her version is my second favorite, after Zeani's.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

JanacekTheGreat said:


> Very well-put, Woodduck!
> 
> I know this match will have a very close call. Callas is imaginative as always, but Zeani got everything just right as it could. I don't think she overdramatizes the aria. Indeed, all are well-calculated - the chest voice, the sobs, the sighs- to portray daddy's favorite _cute_ little girl, but still sound fake enough.
> 
> ...


Fleming always brings to mind a remark Callas made to the effect that in singing the mind must be engaged, but not too much. What she does here is similar to what she did in "Depuis le jour"; a modest young girl is methodically transformed into a _grande dame,_ beautiful but dressed for the wrong occasion. Of course this, along with "Nessun dorma", is probably the most abused aria in opera, and everybody and her third cousin thrice removed wants to sing it. Fleming, at least, can sing it.

Sayao, in my experience, has never put a foot wrong singing anything.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Woodduck said:


> Really sweet and charming. She keeps the character in mind and doesn't "prima donna" the thing, but then she never was a show-off. A nice way to start my day. Do you recall the year?


It was after she sang her last operatic role in Elektra that was around age 64.I read this but can't remember where.


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## MAS (Apr 15, 2015)

JanacekTheGreat said:


> Thanks for sharing your stories!
> 
> While Mother Marie would be a mismatch for Zeani, I doubt the decision was a tribute to the fact that she sang in the first performance (as Blanche) of Dialogues of the Carmelites in Italy. It had a stellar assemble, including Denise Duval, Leyla Gencer, Gigluola Frazzoni and Gianna Pederzini.


In fact, Zeani commented, "no more Blanche," in interviews about the SF production. I think that Price was also in one of the first productions in the U.S.


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## vivalagentenuova (Jun 11, 2019)

I voted for Zeani. She did an excellent job, and it was nice to hear some chest voice in this piece!

Two other renditions that have been mentioned that I really like are Easton and Sayao. Easton's rendition is a benchmark in clarity and strength of the middle voice. Her registration is just unbelievable. Her "eh" vowels become diphtongs, but hey, Puccini chose her personally, so as Woodduck said he seems not to have minded. Her directness and simplicity of interpretation are also winning. Sayao is utterly charming as always, and one of my very favorite renditions.

I also recently discovered this rendition by Gueden. I heard some recordings I didn't like terribly well from Gueden a while back and so I didn't give her much of a look (the voice was too bright, lacking depth and becoming tiring over time). But there seems to be more falsetto in her sound here, and it's just gorgeous. This rendition is perhaps my favorite taking into account both vocal beauty and sound quality. I especially like the portamenti.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

vivalagentenuova said:


> I also recently discovered this rendition by Gueden. I heard some recordings I didn't like terribly well from Gueden a while back and so I didn't give her much of a look (the voice was too bright, lacking depth and becoming tiring over time). But there seems to be more falsetto in her sound here, and it's just gorgeous. This rendition is perhaps my favorite taking into account both vocal beauty and sound quality. I especially like the portamenti.


I don't remember hearing Gueden in anything but operetta, and that not recently. She's lovely as can be, but misses the spunk or spark in Lauretta that Zeani, Callas and Sayao all capture so well. An old expression comes to mind: "sugar and spice and everything nice" - but with too little spice (I think it's the ginger that's missing).


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Well, we all seem to be posting favourite versions of this aria, and as it's so short, why not?

The Conte and I have both mentioned the delightful Victoria De Los Angeles, who, it seems to me, does exactly what's required just by being herself.






Schwarzkopf works harder for her effects, but does a rather better job than Fleming (and, like Callas, manages a little pout on the line _ma per buttarmi in Arno!_).


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Tsaraslondon said:


> Well, we all seem to be posting favourite versions of this aria, and as it's so short, why not?
> 
> The Conte and I have both mentioned the delightful Victoria De Los Angeles, who, it seems to me, does exactly what's required just by being herself.
> 
> ...


Who wouldn't enjoy De Los Angeles in this? Or in practically anything? She was my first Butterfly, and still a favorite. Schwarzkopf, though, doesn't seem comfortable for some reason. She sounds constrained and controlled, even a little weak, as if she can't let go and let her voice out. Maybe she's trying to affect a girlish quality. I'd say Puccini wasn't her thing, but I do recall enjoying her Liu.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Woodduck said:


> Who wouldn't enjoy De Los Angeles in this? Or in practically anything? She was my first Butterfly, and still a favorite. Schwarzkopf, though, doesn't seem comfortable for some reason. She sounds constrained and controlled, even a little weak, as if she can't let go and let her voice out. Maybe she's trying to affect a girlish quality. I'd say Puccini wasn't her thing, but I do recall enjoying her Liu.


Considering how and what she sings on the rest of the recital (the _Willow Song_ and _Ave Maria_ from *Otelo*, arias from *La Boheme*, *The Bartered Bride* and *Eugene Onegin*), I'd say this was a conscious effort to affect a girlish style. Whether it pays off or not is another matter, of course.

I rather like her Liu too, by the way and of course she sang both Mimi and Butterfly in her youth. I have a recording of her singing excerpts from *Madama Butterfly* and they're not entirely convincing. Schwarzkopf herself adjudged them "a bit shrieky on top" when hearing them in later life. They were recorded at the same radio broadcast as the one where she sings a ravishing _Glück das mir verblieb_ from *Die tote Stadt*, which she admitted was "quite good", high praise indeed in Schwarzlopf-speak. She was a very astute judge of her own recordings..


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## dave2708 (Sep 28, 2020)

At this point i vote for neither.
I would have to listen to a good dozen sopranos doing the same aria before choosing.
Telling me these are the only two worthy doesn't necessarily make it so.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

dave2708 said:


> At this point i vote for neither.
> I would have to listen to a good dozen sopranos doing the same aria before choosing.
> Telling me these are the only two worthy doesn't necessarily make it so.


The way this works is simply to pick the one we prefer of each pair offered, not to find our all-time favorites. Several other singers have been brought up by various people, so no one is claiming that these are the only two worth hearing.


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

Woodduck said:


> The way this works is simply to pick the one we prefer of each pair offered, not to find our all-time favorites. Several other singers have been brought up by various people, so no one is claiming that these are the only two worth hearing.


The only time I don't vote is when I feel the quality of the two versions are equal to one another. If one is better than the other in some way (and I try to vote as often as possible), then I will pick that one.

N.


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## dave2708 (Sep 28, 2020)

Woodduck said:


> The way this works is simply to pick the one we prefer of each pair offered, not to find our all-time favorites. Several other singers have been brought up by various people, so no one is claiming that these are the only two worth hearing.


Fair enough except the opening statement implied these two were the only worthy ones and dismissive of the rest.

"These are probably the only two performances where the singer is Lauretta, not a diva singing an opera hit."

Perhaps the wording could have been a bit different.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

dave2708 said:


> Fair enough except the opening statement implied these two were the only worthy ones and dismissive of the rest.
> 
> "These are probably the only two performances where the singer is Lauretta, not a diva singing an opera hit."
> 
> Perhaps the wording could have been a bit different.


I agree that offering that opinion at the outset could inspire some resistance from some participants.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

The Conte said:


> The only time I don't vote is when I feel the quality of the two versions are equal to one another. If one is better than the other in some way (and I try to vote as often as possible), then I will pick that one.
> 
> N.


I generally work that way too, but the Fleming/Eaglen match, one of them overinterpreting the music to the point of parody and the other not interpreting it at all, left me completely stymied.


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## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

By a *very* narrow margin, Callas. I went in thinking "there is no way she can make her voice sound that fresh and youthful like this aria requires"
....and I was wrong.


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## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

Woodduck said:


> I generally work that way too, but the Fleming/Eaglen match, one of them *overinterpreting the music to the point of parody* and the other not interpreting it at all, left me completely stymied.


This is the most succinct description I've come across of a problem I have with so many modern singers (Fleming, Norman, Bartoli, etc).


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

BalalaikaBoy said:


> This is the most succinct description I've come across of a problem I have with so many modern singers (Fleming, Norman, Bartoli, etc).


Bartoli without question (if you can even call some of her effects interpretation), Norman I'm not sure about. But as the culture and our sensibilities get farther in time from the music in question, some performers are bound to do odd and extreme things to make the art feel "relevant," to look for ways to justify yet another performance of old music. The tradition just doesn't come naturally as it did to Battistini and Caruso, or even Callas and Tebaldi.


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## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

Jane Eaglen singing this aria seems like a dramatic baritone singing a Justin Bieber cover or a soubrette trying to cover ABBA.


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## ScottK (Dec 23, 2021)

Zeani was only a name to me and I was surprised to hear the glowing comments. Turns out I was confusing her in my memory with another "only a name"...Elena Suliotis. The renditions are both just as good as the comments I read were saying...sincere, direct, beautiful expressions without a hint of showing off a voice. But I'm convinced that if I heard them without names attached, the maturity of Callas' sound would be the determinant in leading me to vote for Zeani.


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

I can't wait to see who is joining me in my little sad corner after I vote.
This one was so close that I almost feel guilty voting. 
My criteria were not based on which one's voice I preferred but more on the delivery itself, and in this instance Zeani's plaintive sound got to my gut a bit faster than that familiar and loving sound that always gets to me (especially the lower register) of Callas'.
So please forgive me Maria for this one but Zeani touched my heart a bit more.
(running for cover)

Uh oh! I just realized that I have been duped once again. Stupidly, I never bother to look at the date it was put on the list, trusting that it was of the present, and now I notice that I already voted long ago (and haven't a clue which one I chose and why. I'd love to know.)

But I do have a comment having now read the posters' votes. Isn't it funny but the very thing 
that some felt was a positive I found to be a negative in Callas' performance. She was so busy in delivering a successful attempt to make her voice younger that she forgot to convey a certain innocent sadness or vulnerability that Zeani easily produced.

Aha, eureka! I found my original post. Isn't it nice to see that my first choice was sanctioned by my choice today. (although I really don't think it was "easy-peasy").
From now on I will look at dates. Lesson learned.


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## JanacekTheGreat (Feb 26, 2021)

nina foresti said:


> I can't wait to see who is joining me in my little sad corner after I vote.
> This one was so close that I almost feel guilty voting.
> My criteria were not based on which one's voice I preferred but more on the delivery itself, and in this instance Zeani's plaintive sound got to my gut a bit faster than that familiar and loving sound that always gets to me (especially the lower register) of Callas'.
> So please forgive me Maria for this one but Zeani touched my heart a bit more.
> ...


I joined you in voting for Zeani. But just look at the result, it is extremely close. It's a good thing I didn't set an expiration date for the poll, so when new members join TC they can continue to contribute


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

nina foresti said:


> Isn't it funny but the very thing
> that some felt was a positive I found to be a negative in Callas' performance. She was so busy in delivering a successful attempt to make her voice younger that she forgot to convey a certain innocent sadness or vulnerability that Zeani easily produced.


On the other hand I'm not sure that "innocent sadness or vulnerabilty" _is_ what is required at this point. Lauretta is a spoiled little girl, weedling to get round her "dear daddy", who evidently gives in to her quite a lot. I think Callas conveys that better. Zeani's lovely performance is perhaps more comfortable, but also perhaps less characterful.


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## ScottK (Dec 23, 2021)

. It's a good thing I didn't set an expiration date for the poll, so when new members join TC they can continue to contribute [/QUOTE]

Thanks from a new member! I certainly understand polls having closing dates but I'm loving reading and listening to these challenges and it was surprisingly satisfying to actually vote! (Im guessing attempts at political humor are forbidden?!)


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

ScottK said:


> I certainly understand polls having closing dates but I'm loving reading and listening to these challenges and it was surprisingly satisfying to actually vote! *(Im guessing attempts at political humor are forbidden?!)*


They are (unless you're very subtle and sneaky).


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

ScottK said:


> . It's a good thing I didn't set an expiration date for the poll, so when new members join TC they can continue to contribute


Thanks from a new member! I certainly understand polls having closing dates but I'm loving reading and listening to these challenges and it was surprisingly satisfying to actually vote! (Im guessing attempts at political humor are forbidden?!)[/QUOTE]
You'll have to go next door to Opera-L for that.


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## ScottK (Dec 23, 2021)

nina foresti said:


> Thanks from a new member! I certainly understand polls having closing dates but I'm loving reading and listening to these challenges and it was surprisingly satisfying to actually vote! (Im guessing attempts at political humor are forbidden?!)


You'll have to go next door to Opera-L for that.[/QUOTE]

And what, pray tell, is opera L?


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## MAS (Apr 15, 2015)

ScottK said:


> You'll have to go next door to Opera-L for that.


And what, pray tell, is opera L?[/QUOTE]

See for yourself. It's not for the faint-hearted.

https://groups.google.com/g/bit.listserv.mla-l/c/hvycj84R880?pli=1


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

MAS said:


> And what, pray tell, is opera L?


See for yourself. It's not for the faint-hearted.

https://groups.google.com/g/bit.listserv.mla-l/c/hvycj84R880?pli=1[/QUOTE]

It looks like an L of a place.


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

Woodduck said:


> See for yourself. It's not for the faint-hearted.
> 
> https://groups.google.com/g/bit.listserv.mla-l/c/hvycj84R880?pli=1


It looks like an L of a place.[/QUOTE]

Actually quite passionate opera lovers who are really endowed with exceptional knowledge as well as an occasional bite or two with an "adversary". It ain't dull over there but it is a much more "open" environment.
Not recommended for those who can't handle a good food fight now and then.

Actually, the above listed address is incorrect and old.
Here is the correct way to get into Opera-l and sign up.
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/opera-l

good luck!


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## MAS (Apr 15, 2015)

nina foresti said:


> It looks like an L of a place.


Actually quite passionate opera lovers who are really endowed with exceptional knowledge as well as an occasional bite or two with an "adversary". It ain't dull over there but it is a much more "open" environment.
Not recommended for those who can't handle a good food fight now and then.

Actually, the above listed address is incorrect and old.
Here is the correct way to get into Opera-l and sign up.
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/opera-l

good luck![/QUOTE]

Thanks for the correction, nina!


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## JanacekTheGreat (Feb 26, 2021)

Isn't opera interesting? I have almost never seen anyone trade insults over who is better, Horowitz or Rubinstein, Cortot or Schnabel, Hefeitz or Milstein. Actually, I have seen some rather heated debate about Furtwangler vs. Toscanini, but not to the extent of an average opera argument (not here of course, but for example, in the comments on YouTube).


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## ScottK (Dec 23, 2021)

JanacekTheGreat said:


> Isn't opera interesting? I have almost never seen anyone trade insults over who is better, Horowitz or Rubinstein, Cortot or Schnabel, Hefeitz or Milstein. Actually, I have seen some rather heated debate about Furtwangler vs. Toscanini, but not to the extent of an average opera argument (not here of course, but for example, in the comments on YouTube).


Opera is truly just so much more arguable! "You call THAT a well prepared set-up for the recapitulation???" And this forum is considerably more civilized than a friend familiar with Broadway forums has described....at least so far!!! Getting into opera L looks like it's going to challenge my computer skills. But I do want to see it so Ill get there.


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