# adivce to young composer



## Scott Good

Dear friends,

I wrote an article for another classical music site...hope it's not in bad taste to point towards it here....
*
Advice to a young composer*

http://www.brightcecilia.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2328

_"The path of the composer to professional status is not singular. Everyone has their own story. There are several general ideas that I would like to share from my own experience, and that of talking with other composers, or reading about their careers."_

Let me know what you think!

Scott


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## Aramis

Some really good general advices, but as former wannabe-composer I would expect something a little bit diffrent from someone with experience. I would say that article is too broad. Things you write about are rather logical, but not too concrete. If it was ment to be general, encouraging article for beginning composers it's okay, but I think that there are much more important and less obvious things to tell them.


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## Scott Good

Well, as it is on a forum, it is meant to start discussion.

What would you care for me to elaborate on? (I need you to be more specific now!)

What do you think is less obvious and more important?


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## Aramis

Article focused on one perticular aspect could make much more good. IMHO. How to get professionally involved, what kinds of formal education are most helpful in finding a job, how to choose a good university, how to manage first steps in professional career... stuff like that. These are some difficult fields in which newbies really could use come help from experienced ones.


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## Polednice

I agree that the article is very broad and provides background information which is useful, but nevertheless should be common sense.

If you have the knowledge to share, I think the article needs a little less _what_, and a bit more _how_. Both for beginning composers, and the slightly more advanced, but not much more exposed, the most essential questions are ones of:

How can I get my compositions published, or who can publish them if I approach them and I'm good enough?

How can I get an orchestra to consider playing a composition?

Where can I find composition competitions that are appropriate to my age/location etc.?


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## Scott Good

Aramis said:


> Article focused on one perticular aspect could make much more good. IMHO. How to get professionally involved, what kinds of formal education are most helpful in finding a job, how to choose a good university, how to manage first steps in professional career... stuff like that. These are some difficult fields in which newbies really could use come help from experienced ones.


Ok. I see the criticism. But I was open at the beginning saying it was general ideas.

Some of these issues are specific to geography, or direction for composing.

But. let me elaborate a bit on these points. (although i think i did in my article, even if vague - i'm not here to hold someones hand)

1. How to get professionally involved

The biggest barrier to a composer is trust. Therefor, one must build a reputation as a trustworthy composer - this will lead to commissions, which is from my experience and where I live, the best way to earn money as a composer in the early years.

So, if you go to a concert and you really enjoy what you heard, perhaps it would be an idea to contact the players after and tell them how much you enjoyed the concert (flattery does go far! just be honest). Have some concepts for new pieces in mind that are tailored to the ensemble. Be prepared to write some music for free, but still do a great job, and build your portfolio and trustworthiness.

Sometimes, a successful free composition leads to a great commission.

2.what kinds of formal education are most helpful in finding a job

my article was intended more for those who have finished their education. but, a couple of issues with this should be noted.

especially for graduate school, try to find one in a community you could see merging into. an active metropolitan centre with thriving activity. this time can be great to become known.

go to schools with a solid performing program so you can meet the next generation of pros.

3. how to manage first steps in professional career

this is very individual. i think though, that my article is all about this. first steps: be a performer (far more opportunities), build community (form an ensemble, make recordings, attend festivals, put on concerts), keep learning and growing as an artist. experiment.

other things like joining associations can be helpful. build a web presence. enter competitions etc etc.

better?


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## Scott Good

Polednice said:


> I agree that the article is very broad and provides background information which is useful, but nevertheless should be common sense.


Perhaps it is common sense, but, I wasn't just going for information, but emotion. I think you would be surprised at how lost some people feel. It is very intimidating (just look how people speak of living composers...and always being told you are inferior to all of the "great" music) So, I am hoping to be inspiring more than anything else.



Polednice said:


> If you have the knowledge to share, I think the article needs a little less _what_, and a bit more _how_.


Point taken. But again, "how" is very individual.



Polednice said:


> How can I get my compositions published, or who can publish them if I approach them and I'm good enough?


Publishing hasn't been a factor for me - I'm not published! But, I am still able to make my living as a composer through commissions, teaching, and curating .

Honestly, I am just about to start this process. As I am "in the community" at large, I have made several contacts with publishers who show interest. But, I'm waiting till my portfolio is deserving. And depending on how my next premiere goes (next week!), I might just be knocking on some doors. I will present them my best stuff, beautifully prepared, with great recordings, and see what happens.



Polednice said:


> How can I get an orchestra to consider playing a composition?


I think I did address this, in an off way. First, you must be very good at composing orchestral music! There are piles of orchestral compositions sitting around - why choose yours? You will simply need to stand out. You need to know how every instrument works, and how they work together. Not many have this skill, to be honest.

So, start within.

Then - typical routes - competitions - contacts etc. I once put an orchestra together to play a piece of mine - hours of phone calls and lots of favors - but it was totally worth it, and led to more work. But this is a very hard field to conquer. And I'm not sure it is for every composer. I have been driven from the beginning to write for orchestra, and I love the romantic tradition, so, it was a natural fit.

(Btw, never, ever submit a midi recording to a professional group. First impressions are important - wait till you have something worthy to show)



Polednice said:


> Where can I find composition competitions that are appropriate to my age/location etc.?


Google! A couple of hours and you will find plenty.

Or, this is a great site - costs money, but I think worth it:

http://www.compositiontoday.com/


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## Polednice

Edit. You just answered what I was going to say


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## chillowack

Thanks for posting this link, Scott--I didn't even know about BrightCecilia.

I found your article very helpful, and in fact the part about "being a performer" prompted me to resume my piano lessons, which I had temporarily paused for financial reasons.

The advice about competing is also helpful, and thanks for posting the Composition Today link.

Question: you mention that your article is geared toward people who have completed their education. Do you mean to imply that those who have not attended formal music schools have less of a chance at being professional composers? What are your thoughts on this?

Also: please keep us posted on the outcome of your premiere next week!


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## Scott Good

chillowack said:


> Thanks for posting this link, Scott--I didn't even know about BrightCecilia.
> 
> I found your article very helpful, and in fact the part about "being a performer" prompted me to resume my piano lessons, which I had temporarily paused for financial reasons.


Of all the advice, this is one I hold very dear. Don't get me wrong - lots of composers have done well without being a performer...but I think it is much harder...and honestly to me a bit strange.

I have met many composers who later in life regret giving up their instruments.



chillowack said:


> Question: you mention that your article is geared toward people who have completed their education. Do you mean to imply that those who have not attended formal music schools have less of a chance at being professional composers? What are your thoughts on this?


Well, one of the most successful and brilliant Canadian composers of my generation did not have a formal University education (Chris Harman).

But let me tell you, he sure did study music!

I think that formal education can both help and hurt, so, each to their own. I loved my time in school, and feel I gained much from going, but that's me.


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## Polednice

chillowack said:


> Thanks for posting this link, Scott--I didn't even know about BrightCecilia.
> 
> I found your article very helpful, and in fact the part about "being a performer" prompted me to resume my piano lessons, which I had temporarily paused for financial reasons.
> 
> The advice about competing is also helpful, and thanks for posting the Composition Today link.
> 
> Question: you mention that your article is geared toward people who have completed their education. Do you mean to imply that those who have not attended formal music schools have less of a chance at being professional composers? What are your thoughts on this?
> 
> Also: please keep us posted on the outcome of your premiere next week!


Although I'm not in the same position, I'd just like to add something to the position of composers who haven't had formal education.

First of all, I'm half-way in that position, as I am a university student currently, but I am studying English Language and Literature. Nonetheless, one of the most important things to do is to get as much experience in all areas of music as possible. I went to a masterclass taught by Peter Stark (a British conductor who's been on TV), and I asked him about my situation and he said that coming from a different educational background (i.e. not music) can certainly be worked to your _advantage_.

Nevertheless, I would similarly stress that - whether it's formal or informal/personal - you'll still need to study music immensely! For starters, the internet is a wonderful resource for things like this. For example, I'd highly recommend reading things such as Ebenezer Prout's series of books on composition and the orchestra, as well as Rimsky-Korsakov's and Berlioz's treatises on orchestration - all of which can easily be obtained for free on the web.

Of course, there are many, many books that teach composition, but, in my humble experience, while books that 'teach composition' in a theoretical manner are valuable resources, _there is no better way to learn than reading as many actual orchestral scores as possible and asking yourself questions about them_.


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## Scott Good

Polednice said:


> I'd highly recommend reading things such as Ebenezer Prout's series of books on composition and the orchestra, as well as Rimsky-Korsakov's and Berlioz's treatises on orchestration - all of which can easily be obtained for free on the web.


I'd like to add Samuel Adler's orchestration text as well to this list - it also comes with an extensive CD set, so, you can hear every example!



Polednice said:


> Of course, there are many, many books that teach composition, but, in my humble experience, while books that 'teach composition' in a theoretical manner are valuable resources, _there is no better way to learn than reading as many actual orchestral scores as possible and asking yourself questions about them_.


For sure. Great point.

Often when I'm asked who my teachers were, I like to say Bach, Palestrina, Chopin, Schoenberg etc etc.


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## chillowack

Polednice said:


> I'd highly recommend reading things such as Ebenezer Prout's series of books on composition and the orchestra, as well as Rimsky-Korsakov's and Berlioz's treatises on orchestration - all of which can easily be obtained for free on the web.


Hi Polednice,

Can you please direct me to the place you refer to on the web, where Prout's series of books on composition and orchestra can be obtained for free?

I appreciate these resources, thanks--I am very much involved in music study at the moment, and welcome all such suggestions, especially when it comes to free materials.


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## Polednice

chillowack said:


> Hi Polednice,
> 
> Can you please direct me to the place you refer to on the web, where Prout's series of books on composition and orchestra can be obtained for free?
> 
> I appreciate these resources, thanks--I am very much involved in music study at the moment, and welcome all such suggestions, especially when it comes to free materials.


Certainly 

Prout's works can be obtained here at the Internet Archive.

That will list all the books they have by Prout (including some duplicates), but I'll list all the ones that concern music theory (and in chronological order, because they were intended to be read in the order that he wrote them):

_Instrumentation_ (1877)
_Harmony: its theory and practice_ (1889)
_Counterpoint: strict and free_ (1890)
_Double Counterpoint and Canon_ (1891)
_Fugue_ (1891)
_Fugal Analysis: a companion to 'Fugue'_ (1892)
_Musical Form_ (1893)
_Applied Forms_ (1895)
_The Orchestra (Volume 1)_ (1898)
_The Orchestra (Volume 2)_ (1898)

You should of course bear in mind the date at which they were written - which may have various consequences depending on your compositional style - but they are certainly valuable and comprehensive materials for the fundamentals of music theory. Besides, you should know all the 'rules' before you dare to break them 

The Internet Archive is a fantastic resource for all kinds of things, and you may already be aware that the treatises of Rimsky-Korsakov and Berlioz can be found on IMSLP, among other things. I hope that helps


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## Lukecash12

It would be very beneficial to study a man by the name of Georgy Catoire. Tchaikovsky himself said it would be a sin if Catoire didn't become one of the greats. Sadly, performances of his works are very rare these days, and not very many folks have heard of him. His great sense of singing tone, rich modal progressions and chromatics, and eclectic rhythmic device really open people's heads to new possibilities. He was a romantic composer, but still worth studying because he explored a lot of complicated ideas that never got followed up on.


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## danae

If you get into the issue of bibliography, then the thing gets huge. 

For example, Polednice mentioned 2 very old treatises on orchestration (Rimsky-Korsakow and Berlioz), at which point Scott Good added the Adler orchestration book. Of course, nowadays, everyone uses the Adler book, as well as more specialized books (for instance Reginald Smith Brindle's book on percussion instruments). 

Then comes the story of works on theory, analysis and composition. The size of the bibliography is intimidating! Why Prout? Why not Schoenberg (Fundamentals of musical composition, etc...), Schenker, Kostka, Kennan, Piston, Caplin, Cook, Schachter, Salzer etc, etc, etc....? 

You can get really lost in books and treatises. You have to know what you're looking for.


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## Polednice

danae said:


> If you get into the issue of bibliography, then the thing gets huge.
> 
> For example, Polednice mentioned 2 very old treatises on orchestration (Rimsky-Korsakow and Berlioz), at which point Scott Good added the Adler orchestration book. Of course, nowadays, everyone uses the Adler book, as well as more specialized books (for instance Reginald Smith Brindle's book on percussion instruments).
> 
> Then comes the story of works on theory, analysis and composition. The size of the bibliography is intimidating! Why Prout? Why not Schoenberg (Fundamentals of musical composition, etc...), Schenker, Kostka, Kennan, Piston, Caplin, Cook, Schachter, Salzer etc, etc, etc....?
> 
> You can get really lost in books and treatises. You have to know what you're looking for.


Indeed, I'm sure most of are aware of that - I'm sure that theory about _anything_, nevermind music, is saturated with too many books to count. I cited the ones that I did simply because those are the ones I have experience with, and they have served me well on a fundamental level.

With so many books about, there comes a point of diminishing returns. Theory books are only good for so much in the learning process, and, disregarding highly specialised subjects, a large portion of them no doubt teach practically the same things in different ways. Thus, there comes a point when any serious composer must say, 'Enough! I can learn no more about the art of music through words, I must turn to music itself'. And then we turn to the scores of the great composers, and it is here that I am sure any composer will be well aware of which composers to turn to and in what order.


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## danae

Polednice said:


> Thus, there comes a point when any serious composer must say, 'Enough! I can learn no more about the art of music through words, I must turn to music itself'.


Exactly! That's what I was getting at. I spent years studying articles and books by musicologists and analysts, while I was myself writing essays ABOUT music rather than music itself. Tovey and his "if you can't hear it it's not there" approach, Reti with his his thematic approach, Narmour's and Agawu's semiology, Schenker and post-schenkerists, Rosen with his "I want to please everyone" approach, Jackendoff with his generative approach, Caplin and his trendy approach......aaaahhh!


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## Lukecash12

Honestly, I never read any of that crap. I got pretty sick of it within two or three books. I just study composers nowadays. I've been taking them one at a time, and learning about each composer in-depth, very intimate. And it always helps to read several biographies on the composer.

In every sense of the word, the real basis and origin of all great music is emotion, experience, appreciation of life. You just "do" it. To be great, you're not supposed to just want to be really good at it. _You just need to want music._ *Period.*

If you look at music as if mastery is an achievement, then you will never have it. Music isn't a race, it's a form of communication. While someone else may study Chopin's music, I use Chopin's music to study Chopin himself.

I hope that was helpful to you.


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## chillowack

Lukecash12 said:


> Honestly, I never read any of that crap. I got pretty sick of it within two or three books. I just study composers nowadays.


After reading danae's posts, I'm leaning closer to this mentality!

Nevertheless, I'm going to look into Prout's work. Thanks for the links, Polednice.


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