# Schubert: Unfinished vs. Great C Major symphony



## peeyaj

These two symphonies are my two favorite. I have a number of really good recordings of this work.

Symphony no. 8 and 9




























Do you have any favorite recordings? Which symphony do you prefer more?


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## Vesteralen

I picked the Eighth by a very narrow margin. There's no denying the beauty of the Eighth, whereas the Ninth has more muscle. (I actually prefer the first six symphonies, myself. Given an hour to kill, I'd probably listen to two of those instead. But, that's just me.)

(I used to love an old LP of Barbarolli doing the Ninth, though I never owned a copy of it myself. I borrowed it from a friend. I have the Marriner set on LP. I also have Klemperer (LP) for the Eighth, and I like that version very much. It's my recording of choice. On CD, I have Bernstein for both.)


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## emiellucifuge

Just perfect.


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## peeyaj

emiellucifuge said:


> View attachment 7076
> 
> 
> Just perfect.


I don't like Harnoncourt. What's wrong with me!!!!!


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## elgar's ghost

The 9th for me by a whisker. Some complain about its length but it never seems overlong to me - and that brilliant, loping second movement needs time and space to breathe.


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## Manxfeeder

It's funny; I just noticed I have more recordings of the 9th than the 8th. I guess I prefer the 9th. My favorite is by Gardiner.


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## Ukko

The 8th is good for an occasional listen. The 9th never carries me through; I always lose interest and eventually tune out. My favorite is the 5th.


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## Carpenoctem

Damn, hard choice, both are great.

I'm voting for the 8th though. It sounds so dramatic, yet lovely.


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## Il_Penseroso

Symphony No.8 
Wiener Philharmoniker, Bruno Walter 
Berliner Philharmoniker, Wilhelm Furtwängler 

Symphony No.9 
NBC Symphony Orchestra, Arturo Toscanini 
Berliner Philharmoniker, Wilhelm Furtwängler 
Royal Concertgebouw Orchestra, Eduard van Beinum
Berliner Philharmoniker, Herbert von Karajan
Royal Concertgebouw Orchestra, Leonard Bernstein 

I prefer 9 but I'd not say it's better than 8, just my taste.


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## Il_Penseroso

peeyaj said:


> I don't like Harnoncourt. What's wrong with me!!!!!


:lol: :lol: :lol: Nothing !!!


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## Arsakes

8th is more GREAT! I mean it gives better feeling to me.


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## mmsbls

The very first time I heard the 9th I was completely smitten. I love both symphonies, but I'm going with the 9th.


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## Art Rock

The 8th by miles.


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## mtmailey

I like both but the 9th is longer #8 was not finished but i still like it though it was the first symphony of SCHUBERT that i heard.


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## anasazi

Since I grew up with the Szell recording of the 8th (with the Clevelanders) I will go with that. Although reading this thread has sort of encouraged me to try a few other recordings. Szell (as usual) conducts the 8th in a VERYclassical manner. Nothing wrong with that I suppose. I just wonder what some of the other recordings may offer.


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## brianwalker

peeyaj said:


> these two symphonies are my two favorite. I have a number of really good recordings of this work.
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> Symphony no. 8 and 9
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> *do you have any favorite recordings? Which symphony do you prefer more?
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Knappertsbusch 1957 VPO


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## Ostinato

I prefer Schubert being Schubert (8th) to Schubert being Beethoven (9th). (Beethoven did the muscular, rhythmic, unmelodic stuff better; Schubert's strengths were melody and harmony.)

But I quite like Schubert being Mozart (5th) and Schubert being Rossini (6th).


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde

The ninth I think. I've heard Böhm's recording and I think it's marvellous! Now I really want to hear some HIP recordings. I foudn a 12 CD set of Schubert on amazon for $24.95 that includes the eight symphonies played by the Hanover Band.


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## Ukko

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> The ninth I think. I've heard Böhm's recording and I think it's marvellous! Now I really want to hear some HIP recordings. I foudn a 12 CD set of Schubert on amazon for $24.95 that includes the eight symphonies played by the Hanover Band.


If the recordings are from early in the HB's run, the ensemble is pretty 'scrappy'.


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## Huilunsoittaja

Perhaps... if one combines the 2 mvmts of the Schuberts 8th and add the last 2 mvmts of his 9th, you would come up with the perfect symphony.


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## peeyaj

Huilunsoittaja said:


> Perhaps... if one combines the 2 mvmts of the Schuberts 8th and add the last 2 mvmts of his 9th, you would come up with the perfect symphony.


That would be the Symphony no. 10 "Finished Great C B Minor" hehehe


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## neoshredder

Symphony 5 deserves some love as wel. The best Haydn-esque Symphony from Schubert. But I think I'll go with the 9th on this poll.


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde

My favourite is no. 3


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## MaestroViolinist

I voted for no. 8


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## Novelette

The 9th Symphony never struck me as being too long, in fact, it has a sprightly wholesomeness to it that makes the hour zip quickly by.

The Scherzo's trio section is my absolutely favorite moment in the entire symphony. The horn gently fanfares a milder turn to a refined pathos, one that gives the entire symphony an ethereal--and wonderfully refreshing--quality to it.


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## drpraetorus

I find the 9th to be lacking in something I can't quite dscribe. The 8th has more depth and sincerity.


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## KenOC

I tend to listen to the 9th more, though I wouldn't say it's "better." It's certainly more formal and "public," not a bad thing. I remember reading somewhere about the finale's measured cadences, marching in good order across the landscape like an unstoppable army.

And that last grand falling four-note phrase -- I always hear the words, "My dog has fleas." Listen next time and tell me it isn't so! And no, you will never forgive me for that earworm. :lol:


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde

I wish I could change my vote....


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## ProudSquire

I like them equally, but I find myself drawn to the 9th more. The 8th is a very charming and full of delectable melodies, but for some odd reason I'm not too fond of the second movement. On the other hand, I can listen to all 4 movements of the 9th without ever tiring of it.


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## moody

Huilunsoittaja said:


> Perhaps... if one combines the 2 mvmts of the Schuberts 8th and add the last 2 mvmts of his 9th, you would come up with the perfect symphony.


There was a competition in the thirties to finish the eighth and it was won by Frank Merrick the pianist and professor at the Royal Academy.
It was recorded on 78 rpm shellac by British Columbia.


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## joen_cph

It has a lot to do with recorded performances, the *9th* isn´t served very well by a pedestrian dullness. 
Mengelberg, Abendroth, Furtwängler and to some extent Kertesz, Schippers and Munch are among those who underline its inherent qualities and variation in an interesting way, above average recordings.


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## drpraetorus

How about the Unbegun Symphony


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## Faville

Couldn't vote, but I would probably go 8th, since that was the one I grew up on. I wonder if I still have the LP.......

In the meantime, I've grown to love the first six symphonies far more than either the 8th or 9th. Current favorite set--Frans Bruggen and the Orchestra of the 18th Century.


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## Orkestra

"The Great" Is much better than no.8 in my opinion because no.8 just didnt have that much content despite it being very good.


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## arpeggio

I have played both and the 9th is more fun to play. Even with all of the repeats.


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## peeyaj

arpeggio said:


> I have played both and the 9th is more fun to play. Even with all of the repeats.


Is it really difficult for the strings to play the 4th movement of Great C Major?


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## EarthBoundRules

I used to love the Great more because of its grandeur, but now I realize the Unfinished has an mysterious quality in it that I haven't found in any other symphony. Every phrase of it truly seems unfinished (and I mean that in a praising way), and yet the ideas connect together so well. In my opinion I think it's one of the most perfect symphonies ever written. Oh, if only the other movements were finished!


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## KenOC

peeyaj said:


> Is it really difficult for the strings to play the 4th movement of Great C Major?


I seem to remember that, early on, a London orchestra refused to play the C major. Not that the string figures were difficult, but they were thought insulting.


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## peeyaj

KenOC said:


> I seem to remember that, early on, a London orchestra refused to play the C major. Not that the string figures were difficult, but they were thought insulting.


I know the story. The strings collapsed in laughter when they see the fourth movement.
As a modern strings player, how difficult is the fourth movement?


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## Otter

I guess the strings weren't very...
























SYMPATHETIC!!!

/bad pun



I love both, but I prefer the Ninth, preferably with all the repeats. The third theme of the 1st movement is incredible--those trombones! And the way the strings and woodwinds "talk" to each other reminds me of the Cello Quintet's slow movement's final section.


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## DavidA

I have an affection for the 8th as it was my late father's favourite symphony. So it reminds me of him.

I have a recording by Carlos Kleiber which is immense although short on what some call Viennese charm. But he really makes it a substantial piece as did Karajan in a recording I used to own on cassette.

And I've just found a recording by Klemperer that disappeared on a shelf for while. I'll have a listen some time.


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## Otter

BBC's fantastic Discovering Music program is set to analyze the Great Symphony this week!

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b006tn54/broadcasts/2013/02

Unfortunately those of us outside of UK can't hear it. They also have an analysis of the Unfinished up but, again, outside-of-UK people can't DL it.   

ETA: Oh! Apparently they've changed something since the last time I checked; the Dvorak's 8th show is listenable; maybe the 9th will be too!! *crosses fingers*


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## KenOC

BBC Radio 3 seems quite listenable here on the US Left Coast...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio3/


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## Otter

Yes, I did further research; it's only the really old shows I can't listen to anymore (the Unfinished show was back in 2006). The last time I checked I couldn't listen to ANY of them; so glad they changed the policy. 

(Listening to the Dumky Trio show now; I love Dvorak almost as much as Schubert.)


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## daveh

As someone who only recently heard both of these for the first time, I thought I would post here to see if I am in a minority of preferring his 5th over both of these? And honest, I might even enjoy his 6th more than both (or at least the 8th) - I really, really enjoyed his 6th. 

As for the original poll question, I vote the 9th.


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## Itullian

9th easily.
its one of the great symphonies period.


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## Brahmsian Colors

peeyaj said:


> I don't like Harnoncourt. What's wrong with me!!!!!


Nothing. I'm not partial to him either. He can be somewhat quirky at times.


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## Pugg

Haydn67 said:


> Nothing. I'm not partial to him either. He can be somewhat quirky at times.


Couldn't put it better myself .


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## helenora

equal. Both are great!


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## gsilko

The 9th wins for me. In fact at last count I have 50+ recordings of it, with Furtwangler, Bernstein (on DG) and the old Schippers
as my favorites.


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## Pugg

gsilko said:


> The 9th wins for me. In fact at last count I have 50+ recordings of it, with Furtwangler, Bernstein (on DG) and the old Schippers
> as my favorites.


50 is a very impressive collection, welcome to Talk Classical by the way.


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## Animal the Drummer

The "Unfinished" for me. Sorry but I do find the 9th can drag on a bit in the wrong hands.


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## Bill H.

Peter Gutmann has a new essay out on the "Great" 9th, but also with some significant comments about the "Unfinished"....I've been listening to the Furtwängler wartime 9th, and it is indeed hair-raising.

http://www.classicalnotes.net/classics5/great.html


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## KenOC

Bill H. said:


> Peter Gutmann has a new essay out on the "Great" 9th, but also with some significant comments about the "Unfinished"....I've been listening to the Furtwängler wartime 9th, and it is indeed hair-raising.
> 
> http://www.classicalnotes.net/classics5/great.html


A very interesting essay, thanks!


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## PlaySalieri

I love these 2 better than any of Beethoven's symphonies.
The great tragedy of Schubert's early death is the loss of a composer that ought to have filled the gap between Beethoven and Brahms with even greater symphonies.


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## Reichstag aus LICHT

stomanek said:


> The great tragedy of Schubert's early death is the loss of a composer that ought to have filled the gap between Beethoven and Brahms with even greater symphonies.


I'd have given that honour to Mendelssohn; I find Schubert's symphonies rather twee in comparison. I love his piano music, though, and his Lieder occupy a universe of their own.


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## PlaySalieri

Reichstag aus LICHT said:


> I'd have given that honour to Mendelssohn; I find Schubert's symphonies rather twee in comparison. I love his piano music, though, and his Lieder occupy a universe of their own.


I like Mendelssohn's 3 rd and 4th symphonies - but even those works do not match up to the stature of Schubert's last two - nowhere near.


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## DiesIraeCX

This is a tough one. I used to absolutely adore both of these, but I've come to feel that both lose a bit of steam as they go on. I enjoy the 'Unfinished's first movement probably the most. I've shifted my love of Schubert from the symphonies to the solo piano, chamber music, and songs.


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## hpowders

OP, that's like asking me, which would I rather drink, castor oil or sulphuric acid? :lol:

I guess I will always be a Brahms/Beethoven man.


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## PeterF

Both are symphonies i like a lot. But if I have to pick one of them it would be number 8.

Symphony No. 8
Szell
Walter
Munch
Nott
Marriner

Symphony No.9
Szell
Munch
Marriner


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## Weird Heather

I love all of Schubert's late work. I know the 8th better than the 9th or the unfinished and sketchy 10th, but I love all of them. Though his early works were fairly conventional, albeit impeccably constructed, in his late works, he was moving music in a radical new direction. If he had lived, the history of classical music would have been quite different. Just listen to the 10th - it is like nothing else I have ever heard; it feels completely new and radical, even by today's standards.

The two completed movements of the 8th are masterpieces, and the incomplete scherzo is quite catchy; the theme gets into my head and rattles around there, but it is so enjoyable that it does not annoy me as much as other ear worms do.


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## GodotsArrived

Haydn67 said:


> Nothing. I'm not partial to him either. He can be somewhat quirky at times.


Is that what they call scholarship these days? I would choose "challenging" rather than "quirky" since the latter implies being different for its own sake and Harnoncourt right until the end had a ceaselessly enquiring mind. He never stopped studying, never presumed he had defined any one piece and dug endlessly to try to advance his understanding, and interpretation, of the pieces he conducted. Whatever you think of him as a conductor, he was among the great musical scholars of his generation. I can understand not being partial to him particularly in so far as his constant evolution as an artist pushed both his own and the listeners borders. I have heard recordings of his to which I have not been sympathetic, but none that failed to force me into serious consideration of the music to hand. For me, he's one of the great musical figures of the past quarter century, far transcending just being a "conductor."


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## 13hm13

My choice is 8 above 9.

As far as performances ... haven't heard that many ...but of the ones I have ....
*8th "Unfinished"*

Gunter Wand (NDR, 2001):





Furtwangler (1953, Berlin PO):





*9th Symphony
*:

Szell (1957. Cleveland Orch.)

Furtwängler (1953, Berlin PO)


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## Brahmsian Colors

I easily derive greater enjoyment from the "Great C Major" than the "Unfinished". My preferred interpretation of the Ninth has long been the first Szell/Cleveland version from the late 1950s on the Epic lp label.


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## Holden4th

I really like both but the overall structure of the 9th puts it ahead for me.

As for performances, I bought the COE/Abbado 9th and was sold. Great interpretation with some new ideas. I then discovered Sinopoli's 8th. I hadn't heard a performance like that in a long time - it was magic. Someone on a forum like this said that Sinopoli had also recorded the 9th. Yes, he had and the Abbado was pushed back into second place when I listened to it. So Sinopoli for both the 8th and 9th.

Both are available on this one CD


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## jegreenwood

Haydn67 said:


> I easily derive greater enjoyment from the "Great C Major" than the "Unfinished". My preferred interpretation of the Ninth has long been the first Szell/Cleveland version from the late 1950s on the Epic lp label.
> 
> View attachment 97016


That and Munch and the BSO (on a Living Stereo SACD with the 8th). I also have fond memories of Gerard Schwarz leading the New York Chamber Symphony in concert.


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## Merl

Schubert 9th this week. May change again next week.


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## happyclassicalfeet

Ah tough choice here. The ninth a little bit more, maybe?

Favourite recordings:
9th: Bohm (live) with Dresden

8th: Reiner with the CSO. Listen to this one, I think you won't look back to other recordings.


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## Heck148

happyclassicalfeet said:


> 8th: Reiner with the CSO. Listen to this one, I think you won't look back to other recordings.


Reiner's #9 is even better, toss up with Toscanini/NBC for top honors...Reiner's #5 is superb, also.
For #8, I go with Toscanini/NBC - powerful!! And he moves it right along...no sluggish "andante- ponderoso" here...logy, stodgy, plodding grinds that so frequently afflict this oft-abused work.. powerful surges of sound in mvt 2...like hearing the work for first time...


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## joen_cph

... had expected in the long run, that the 8th would be ahead, but no ... interesting, being as said for the 9th, which is however, reputedly, too long and boring for many people.


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## Heck148

Brahmsian Colors said:


> I easily derive greater enjoyment from the "Great C Major" than the "Unfinished". My preferred interpretation of the Ninth has long been the first Szell/Cleveland version from the late 1950s on the Epic lp label.
> View attachment 97016


Szell/Cleveland I is a really fine version, one of the best...I esp like the solo oboe work of Marc Lifschey...

Szell's later version, shortly before his death in 1970, is good also, but, tmk, only available on a big mega-disc set at present.


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## Heck148

joen_cph said:


> ... had expected in the long run, that the 8th would be ahead, but no ... interesting, being as said for the 9th, which is however, reputedly, too long and boring for many people.


yes, but it depends upon the performance - 
Toscanini and Reiner are great - they move it along, and they respect the all-important accents, which are crucial...they provide tremendous drive and excitement...the oft-repeated themes really get monotonous unless there is rhythmic drive and vigorous accents....a too-slow tempo kills it as well...

I listened on YouTube to Sawallisch/VPO in Schubert #9....awful!! soporific!! I don't know how the musicians managed to stay awake....the orchestra sounds ok, but it is so slow, logy, pedestrian, no accents, just stodgy plodding along with interminable monotony...a sure cure for insomnia.....if that was the only performance you ever heard of it, you'd think it was the crappiest symphony ever written....


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## PlaySalieri

Weird Heather said:


> I love all of Schubert's late work. I know the 8th better than the 9th or the unfinished and sketchy 10th, but I love all of them. Though his early works were fairly conventional, albeit impeccably constructed, in his late works, he was moving music in a radical new direction. If he had lived, the history of classical music would have been quite different. Just listen to the 10th - it is like nothing else I have ever heard; it feels completely new and radical, even by today's standards.
> 
> The two completed movements of the 8th are masterpieces, and the incomplete scherzo is quite catchy; the theme gets into my head and rattles around there, but it is so enjoyable that it does not annoy me as much as other ear worms do.


I did listen to the 10th - reconstructions etc - the first movement to me sounds the most satisfying in terms of it being Schubert. But I do not think it is near the same level as either the 8th or the 9th. It may well be the Schubert had he lived - would have shelved it - or completed it to such a high standard it would be on the level we would expect from him.

The 8th is sublime but only half a symphony - while 9th is magnificent and complete - I chose the 9th


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## Superflumina

I go back and forth on this but right now the 9th is my favorite.
Favorite recording of both the 8th and 9th is by Charles Mackerras with the Orchestra of the Age of Enlightenment.


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## Animal the Drummer

PlaySalieri said:


> I did listen to the 10th - reconstructions etc - the first movement to me sounds the most satisfying in terms of it being Schubert. But I do not think it is near the same level as either the 8th or the 9th. It may well be the Schubert had he lived - would have shelved it - or completed it to such a high standard it would be on the level we would expect from him.
> 
> The 8th is sublime but only half a symphony - while 9th is magnificent and complete - I chose the 9th


I'm guessing you may have heard the incomplete Newbould "realisation" of the 10th which, though scholarly, doesn't give the piece its full effect. The recording conducted by Bartholomée is the one to get (if you can find a copy which isn't obscenely expensive) and you may then hear that the stunning slow movement is at least the equal of the admittedly wonderful 1st movement (IMHO of course) with the other two movements nicely completing the whole.

I haven't voted in the poll because neither the 8th nor the 9th is on my favourites list. The former doesn't normally grab me as it once would have (Carlos Kleiber's white-hot recording being the exception) and I'm afraid the 9th has always been a piece I find it easier to admire than to love. I'd sooner listen to the 5th than to either of them.


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## PlaySalieri

Animal the Drummer said:


> I'm guessing you may have heard the incomplete Newbould "realisation" of the 10th which, though scholarly, doesn't give the piece its full effect. The recording conducted by Bartholomée is the one to get (if you can find a copy which isn't obscenely expensive) and you may then hear that the stunning slow movement is at least the equal of the admittedly wonderful 1st movement (IMHO of course) with the other two movements nicely completing the whole.
> 
> I haven't voted in the poll because neither the 8th nor the 9th is on my favourites list. The former doesn't normally grab me as it once would have (Carlos Kleiber's white-hot recording being the exception) and I'm afraid the 9th has always been a piece I find it easier to admire than to love. I'd sooner listen to the 5th than to either of them.


yes I think so - the first movement certainly sounds very much like Schubert - the Bartholomée seems to have been uploaded to youtube - I will give it a try.

It reminded me a bit of Beethoven - who composed the relatively modest - though energetic - 8th symphony after the magnificent 7th. And Schubert's 9th is a hard act to follow - though I note you don't personally like the 9th much.


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## Oortone

PlaySalieri said:


> ...
> The 8th is sublime but only half a symphony - while 9th is magnificent and complete - I chose the 9th


I second that. If the 8th was complete maybe I would have chosen it. Impossible to say.
Both are great but the The Great is greatest.


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