# Why Sibelius always sound sad and angry?



## peeyaj (Nov 17, 2010)

To my ears, it seems that Sibelius is depressed.. miserable etc. He always sound sad and angry everytime I listen to him.

Why??


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## violadude (May 2, 2011)

Because he was an alcoholic with throat cancer that was born under nationally oppressive circumstances.


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## clavichorder (May 2, 2011)

violadude said:


> Because he was an alcoholic with throat cancer that was born under nationally oppressive circumstances.


And he lived too far north for most people to remain well adjusted.

Jokes aside, I still find a lot of emotional warmth in Sibelius, though I'm no expert on his work.


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## Renaissance (Jul 10, 2012)

peeyaj said:


> Why??


Because he can.


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## violadude (May 2, 2011)

clavichorder said:


> And he lived too far north for most people to remain well adjusted.
> 
> Jokes aside, I still find a lot of emotional warmth in Sibelius, though I'm no expert on his work.


Except for the 4th symphony. That one is truly brutally depressing.


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## clavichorder (May 2, 2011)

violadude said:


> Except for the 4th symphony. That one is truly brutally depressing.


I don't know it. My point of reference was the 1st and 2nd symphonies. Credibility loss.


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## peeyaj (Nov 17, 2010)

Sibelius is depressing because he live in Finland, with it's harsh winters.


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## Ravndal (Jun 8, 2012)

Check out Pelleas et Melissande by Sibelius. Not so sad


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## jani (Jun 15, 2012)

Because Finnish tend to be melancholic, specially them who lived on 19-20th century.


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## DrKilroy (Sep 29, 2012)

Because you have not yet listened to his happier works.  The scherzo (and parts of first movement) of the First Symphony do not seem to be sad nor angry. Also try the Fifth Symphony.

Best regards, Dr


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## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

The music of Sibelius has never struck me as being sad/angry, just serious - he was a Finnish patriot who was understandably keen to see his country become a true entity after centuries of domination by first the Swedes and then, even though Finns were to be granted a certain amount of autonomy, as a Grand Duchy of Russia. The Finnish language wasn't even given official parity with Swedish until 1892. Born during the fledgling days of the Hennoman nationalist movement, he often turned to ancient Finnish folklore as a wellspring for his musical feelings and quite a lot of those old legends seem to be of a tragic and occasionally brutal nature, as a lot of European pre-Christian mythology tended to be. And, of course, another element that went into his writing, especially in the symphonies, was his genuine love of the Finnish climate and landscape, however bleak, harsh and unrelenting it might appear in the winter months to people used to more temperate climes. I'm sure not all of his music can be like this, though - maybe there is lighter and more upbeat fare to be found in his songs, for example?


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## Kurkikohtaus (Oct 22, 2006)

I second the notion stated above that Sibelius' music isn't necessarily sad, bud certainly serious.

To my ears, the seriousness is best explained by the fact that Sibelius rarely resorts to artifice and convention to express what he was feeling. His mannerisms and the forms that they produce are unique to him. Whether or not the moods in his music reflect the bleakness of the Nordic landscape and its peoples is secondary to the fact that the moods in his music are a pure reflection of his state of mind and spirit at a given time, without disguise or pretense.


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## Arsakes (Feb 20, 2012)

I like it this way.


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## Jaws (Jun 4, 2011)

peeyaj said:


> To my ears, it seems that Sibelius is depressed.. miserable etc. He always sound sad and angry everytime I listen to him.
> 
> Why??


You missed the other word, and boring.


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## Guest (Nov 11, 2012)

peeyaj said:


> To my ears, it seems that Sibelius is depressed.. miserable etc. He always sound sad and angry everytime I listen to him.
> 
> Why??


You seem to have missed that you answered your own question already, an answer that your interlocuters have also missed.



peeyaj said:


> To my ears


Now, as to the next question, which you have not yet asked, I don't know. Only you would know that, and maybe even not.

But here's a wee anecdote about listening--when I hear a particular tune in Prokofiev's _Eugene Onegin,_ I hear heartbreaking melancholia. It's a tune that Prokofiev would recycle, too, in _Betrothal in a Monastery._ This is interesting because in both contexts, there are words that go with the tune. In the first, Onegin is saying that he's indifferent to girls. He can take 'em or leave 'em. In the second, the character that I'm too lazy to look up is saying what a privilege it is to do nice things for pretty girls.

Two very different contexts, for sure--_and neither of them even close to expressing sadness._

I don't know why I hear it like this. I do know that Prokofiev certainly did not!


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## Hassid (Sep 29, 2012)

Because he always wont to be a jockey, but couldn't because his height and weight.


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## Stargazer (Nov 9, 2011)

I never found any of his stuff to be either depressing or angry myself


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## Renaissance (Jul 10, 2012)

They are not depressing, nor angry, just atmospheric stuff for melancholic listeners. And they succeed in this pretty well, at least for me.


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## bigshot (Nov 22, 2011)

I like Sibelius's symphonies, but I admit that they can tend to long stretches of melancholy, which if you're not in the mood for it can be pretty tiresome. His tone poems are altogether different for me, especially the ones based on folk tales. Those are pure gold.


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## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

Interesting, these 'melancholy' attributions. Maybe so. What I hear isn't melancholy; melancholy is an internal condition. Much of his music creates tableaus/environments/'happenings' undefined and external to me, and my reactions do not include melancholy. Uneasy frissons, occasionally bordering on 'fear and awe', maybe, but mostly the desire to enter the music, to be part of it. 

The power in Sibelius' music isn't unique, but it is rare.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

I do find him dark overall, epic. I agree with what people said re his music being profound and without artifice. He just says it straight. Like the famous quote by Sibelius, that while other composers offer their listeners cocktails, he just gives them a glass of pure chilled(?) water.

_Symphony #4_ is I think his finest work, and also as some have noted, his bleakest, most depressing utterance. & yes, it was written at a bad time in his life, around the time of a throat cancer operation and also when he was basically bankrupt.

National narratives do inform his work, not only legends (like the _Lemminkainen Suite_ and various tone poems) but also for example his _Symphony #5,_ whose triumphant mood does speak to how Finland broke off from Russia when it was written, it finally became independent.

& while less depressing than the 4th, his final works - the 7th symphony and _Tapiola_ - do display this inner turmoil and I don't see them as very happy or hopeful swan songs. He was to live about 3 decades after those, but those where not very happy at all. Although secure financially and seen as one of the greatest living composers, his domestic life paints another picture. Sibelius' personal secretary in his final years basically said he was depressed and grumpy as hell. But we won't know how he might have expressed that in music, as he burnt his 8th symphony.

The thing that added to his depression was criticism of him being 'old hat.' The ideologue Adorno - whom even Schoenberg said went too far - branded Sibelius as a bad composer. I suppose Sibelius should have ignored criticisms from extreme cliques like this, from what I see as insecure people with an agenda, and a negative one at that. But no doubt it took part in silencing him and he was already very self critical. Another famous quote by Sibelius, saying that people should not care for what critics thought, as nobody raised a statue to a critic, may well have been ironic.

Of course he does have his lighter works. The _Karelia Suite_, from which that famous 'lollipop' _Alla Marcia_ (quite up tempo mood there) is taken, is not dark overall. The middle movement is an example of Sibelius looking forward to Minimalism, its just amazing, and kind of static and moving at the same time. A clearly triumphant work is the famous _Finlandia_, which was banned by the Tsarist authorities. & some of his works come across as more to do with images than his own emotions, eg. _The Oceanides_, which brings to my mind images of the swelling waves of the ocean, and seagulls and the smell of salty air.


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## Huilunsoittaja (Apr 6, 2010)

Sibelius didn't acquired that happy Russian color. He remained in the austere Germanic style and improved upon it with the uniquely "Finnish soul" which is even more dark and brooding. As a Finn, I have to say my soul isn't the stereotype, and really not all Finns are "Stoic." Finlandia is quite uplifting though, it doesn't stay dark at all.


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## brianwalker (Dec 9, 2011)

Sibelius is full of joy. Schubert is much sadder.


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## superhorn (Mar 23, 2010)

Try the rarely performed but unjustly neglected 3rd symphony - it's anything but dark and depressing .
I consider it to be the brightest and most cheerful of his seven symphonies .


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## Sonata (Aug 7, 2010)

I really don't think that Sibelius' music sounds always sand and angry. Symphony #2 certainly. But I personally found most of #1 to be a rather upbeat work, and Symphony #5 has some threads of melancholy in it, but it is hardly a downer. Then again, I listen to a lot of Mahler, so by comparison one can say that Sibelius is rather sunny indeed


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## Guest (Nov 12, 2012)

I wonder what music would sound like if we could listen to it without instantly translating the sounds we hear into vague words about even vaguer emotions.

Probably be pretty cool stuff, no?


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## neoshredder (Nov 7, 2011)

Shostakovich is more depressing imo.


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## Guest (Nov 12, 2012)

Ah.

Well, it might be pretty cool if it were possible to do.

Oh well.


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## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

some guy said:


> I wonder what music would sound like if we could listen to it without instantly translating the sounds we hear into vague words about even vaguer emotions.
> 
> Probably be pretty cool stuff, no?


I have no problem doing that. Sorry to learn of your affliction.


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## jani (Jun 15, 2012)

neoshredder said:


> Shostakovich is more depressing imo.


Yes he is very depressing


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## Sonata (Aug 7, 2010)

some guy said:


> I wonder what music would sound like if we could listen to it without instantly translating the sounds we hear into vague words about even vaguer emotions.
> 
> Probably be pretty cool stuff, no?


That's how I hear most instrumental music (not all)


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

some guy said:


> I wonder what music would sound like if we could listen to it without instantly translating the sounds we hear into vague words about even vaguer emotions.
> 
> Probably be pretty cool stuff, no?


Well, Saint Saens said that there is nothing more difficult than talking about music. So yes, any talking or writing about music will have its limitations. But we can try. Otherwise, what's the point of this forum? I'm ok with people asking questions about what others think about music, and also telling us what they think. Its okay to 'compare notes' so to speak. I think that's what I come here, its one of the reasons, to see what others think about music or about opinions on music, history, technique, etc.


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## tdc (Jan 17, 2011)

Outside of his 4th symphony I wasn't aware anyone ever really thought Sibelius sounded generally sad and angry, that is not what I get from his music at all, (aside from the 4th). Though in agreement with others it is hard to summarize in words what I actually _do_ get from the music... awe inspiring scenes of nature, danger, triumph, mystery, breath-taking colors, icy landscapes... Those are some of the things that come to mind, but his music is much more than that. 'Sad' and 'angry' really doesn't come to mind for me, nor do I feel do these terms do his music any justice.


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## GraemeG (Jun 30, 2009)

Sibelius is primal. There is always the suggestion of untameable power, and the wild savagery of nature about his music. It's all washed in wet greys and blacks. Not depressing, just unfathomable and mysterious.

Shostakovich's music - at least his non-film music - is littered with corpses. The eleventh symphony, for instance - you wade knee-deep through cadavers for seventy minutes straight and are utterly drained by the end. It's an extreme emotional experience, but I don't think I'd call it exactly depressing either.

Schubert aches with bittersweetness...

cheers,
GG


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## neoshredder (Nov 7, 2011)

jani said:


> Yes he is very depressing


Lol that's one of his more upbeat Symphonies. His string quartets are pure misery. Not for the listener though. lol


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## samurai (Apr 22, 2011)

I've just finished listening to the *Second and Third Symphonies* of Sibelius, and I feel uplifted and not somber or at all depressed. Go figure, huh? :scold:


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## Vaneyes (May 11, 2010)

For the sads, if you listen to his string quartets and solo piano, you may get a different, or a more balanced impression. :tiphat:


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