# Orchestral dress code - time to change it?



## Lunasong

*Extravagant designs replace 'boring and outdated' black for the London Contemporary Orchestra - but opinion is divided*
http://www.theguardian.com/music/2013/aug/18/orchestra-makeover-vivienne-westwood

Robert Ames, the co-artistic director of the London Contemporary Orchestra states, "All-black instantly alienates the musicians from the audience … It's extremely boring and outdated." A collaboration with fashion designer Dame Vivienne Westwood resulted recently in some quite unusual outfits.










Professor Peter Dickinson, a writer and composer, said: "Music as music is not enough any more. The visual culture is dominating in ways that not long ago would have been regarded as unacceptable, for example projections in concerts. However, if the assumption is that you've always got to present music like television programmes, then we're losing the essence of classical music. It is too richly complex to be used as wallpaper and subordinated to what is seen. We must resist this infringement and teach the young to love music in its own right."

The subject of dress was raised earlier this year in a speech at the annual conference of the Association of British Orchestras. Max Hole, the head of Universal Music's classical music division, called on musicians "to think about the way they dress" to engage more with young audiences.

Ames said that Westwood's outfits were in keeping with the vision of the Stockhausen music the LCO will be playing this Thursday at the Roundhouse in London. He said Stockhausen wanted the audience to associate each piece within his epic _KLANG - Die 24 Stunden des Tages_ (Sound - The 24 Hours of the Day) with different colours: "We decided to dress the musicians in white and give the audience different glasses where they see each piece in a different colour." The LCO, formed in 2008, specialises in new music and has worked with leading composers and artists.

Westwood is known as the "godmother of punk". She drew on 1970s punk music and became one of the world's most influential fashion designers with provocative clothes bearing anti-establishment imagery and combining elements of historical British dress, including the 19th-century bustle, with tartan miniskirts.

She is said to be passionate about classical music and opera, and works regularly with English National Ballet, as well as opera stars including the American soprano Renée Fleming.

Westwood has donated outfits to the LCO and is said to have spent "a considerable amount of time and resource" on their partnership without charge, although the promotional value is presumably welcome.


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## Lunasong

I have not seen my local orchestra in anything but variants of black and white for many years. About a decade ago, they had a sponsor who wanted them to wear denim long sleeve shirts for the sponsored concerts. It looked...odd. I don't remember what pants they had to wear; black or jeans.


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## Ingélou

I think black is boring & some other colour for each orchestra would be more interesting. It's also odd how the men are all trussed up in jackets while the females can be skimpily clad. Everyone wearing clothes appropriate to the heating system, and no stiff sleeves, would be more comfortable.


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## PetrB

Lunasong said:


> *
> Ames said that Westwood's outfits were in keeping with the vision of the Stockhausen music the LCO will be playing this Thursday at the Roundhouse in London. He said Stockhausen wanted the audience to associate each piece within his epic KLANG - Die 24 Stunden des Tages (Sound - The 24 Hours of the Day) with different colours: "We decided to dress the musicians in white and give the audience different glasses where they see each piece in a different colour."*


*

First, if you want the culture audience do not hire a television producer as a consultant 

I can not think of anything much lamer, or that has such an air of pandering / condescension to it -- if you seriously are out to aggressively turn off the yet to be gotten in touch with future audiences and the old garde, this is exactly the approach you will take, kindergarten tactics on adults from whom you are hoping to appeal to pay pounds, not a penny but pounds, on an engaging entertainment. Right. Turn it into a colored paper decorations kiddie party.

On the other hand, regardless of socio-demographic within their society, I have not witnessed a people who are, almost to the last person, seriously involved with and concerned about "fashion" as are the British.*


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## Taggart

PetrB said:


> On the other hand, regardless of socio-demographic within their society, I have not witnessed a people who are, almost to the last person, seriously involved with and concerned about "fashion" as are the British.


I think you misunderstand the British preoccupation with "fashion". Shaw remarked: "It is impossible for an Englishman to open his mouth without making some other Englishman hate or despise him. " We have now moved on and use dress as a similar marker.

Neat one from Berkley:


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## PetrB

The notion that different dress code for performing musicians has to do with current audiences staying away is, I think, nearly ridiculous, and part of this rather new notion that just everyone should and could be lured into sitting still for an hour and twenty minutes to "just listen" to classical music. Another bewailing of the fact that not everybody is going to hear classical music -- as if they ever did in the past -- and as if by changing costumes and making the venue appear less formal you are suddenly going to draw in the great unwashed in numbers past that standard 3% of the population who do go and enjoy classical.

Whatever the players wear, the black and white is exactly so the audience does not find the player's clothing in any way a distraction. Choose one color and some audience members will be distracted / dislike it. I don't want to see a sea of blue, or a piebald group wearing different brightly colored tops, the glint of jewelry off of a players neck, etc.

The standard costume could be a bit relaxed, literally "unbuttoned," by allowing the gents a simple black sports jacket, still a white shirt, no tie, top button of the shirt undone. Something less formal for the ladies, but again black and white, less formal.

The regulation of setting skirt length well below the knee is practical, the moment a woman sits down onstage, the skirt hikes up considerably, and stages are set so a good deal of the main floor audience is already looking up at the players. Soloists of either gender are readily expected to stand out, though most of the men stick with the standard tuxedo... practical as well as that keeps their professional wardrobe budget to the minimum.

Concerts are audio events, and everyone knows it, including those who have only gone to the pop concerts which are chock-a-block with visuals.

In television, you get an announcer weirdly and unnecessarily bobbing their head while speaking, because *in television, it is true, if there is no motion to be seen, viewer interest drops quickly. I would not take the advice of a television director with much weight when it comes to what is or is not working in the concert hall for the actual attendees, and not, via that director's natural bias, "a television audience."*

I think tarting up or dressing down the performers in the classical venue is not going to bring one or thirty more people to that well to drink. Those who want to listen and hear will go.


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## ahammel

Does anybody really think an orchestra isn't visually interesting? Wow.

I often hear the complaint that a suit must be uncomfortable for the male performers, but a suit that actually fits is in fact very comfortable. Dress slacks in particular are far more light and comfortable than jeans and anybody who says otherwise is a filthy liar.

The jackets seems a bit restrictive on the arm movements for the violins and violas, though.Maybe the dudes could wear waistcoats instead. That would be stylin'.


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## LordBlackudder

it must be very uncomfortable wearing a suit all the time for the audience and performer. just wear what you want.


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## DrKilroy

Suits are actually pretty comfortable, if well fitting. Musicians (instrumentalists or conductors) may have their coats made with higher armholes which make arm moves less restricted.

Best regards, Dr


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## elgar's ghost

I don't mind variations/relaxations in dress code but for God's sake please keep Vivienne bloody Westwood out of the equation...


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## Radames

Is this any better?


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## Aramis

elgars ghost said:


> I don't mind variations/relaxations in dress code but for God's sake please keep Vivienne bloody Westwood out of the equation...


You mean this is not the right outfit:


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## senza sordino

ahammel said:


> Does anybody really think an orchestra isn't visually interesting? Wow.
> 
> I often hear the complaint that a suit must be uncomfortable for the male performers, but a suit that actually fits is in fact very comfortable. Dress slacks in particular are far more light and comfortable than jeans and anybody who says otherwise is a filthy liar.
> 
> The jackets seems a bit restrictive on the arm movements for the violins and violas, though.Maybe the dudes could wear waistcoats instead. That would be stylin'.


As a violin player I can say that wearing a black suit and stiff white collar and bow tie is uncomfortable with the violin jammed into my neck. I rehearse and practice in comfortable clothes, and wear the suit at performance. But we play as an ensemble so we should at least try to look and dress the same, a uniform.


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## dgee

DrKilroy said:


> Suits are actually pretty comfortable, if well fitting. Musicians (instrumentalists or conductors) may have their coats made with higher armholes which make arm moves less restricted.
> 
> Best regards, Dr


If they can afford to have their coats made - or prioritise spending on concert gear!

If you ever get close enough to see (and smell) the details of the wardrobe of the gentlemen members of a pro orchestra you might be unpleasantly surprised. When I was working (I put the axe away about 5 years ago) there were lots of short sleeve shirt wearers, tail-coats with holes or rips in them and $20 shirts that would never be washed - stuffed in the drum or bass cases and binned every 6 months or so. Don't ask about the matinee/proms white jackets - 50 years old with sweat stains on the outside! White waistcoats and ties often looked less than fresh close up. There were some that looked after their concert dress but not many

I've done some concerts in "darkish" suit and tie and that looked OK - I understand this look is getting a bit of traction in Europe although I don't know the details. Practically though, there will always be stragglers and a level of choice could expose this in a way uniform doesn't.

In general terms, I'd love to see the "ritual" elements stripped from orchestra concerts, but since its a powerful signifier of the occasion to some I sense (and hence a potential marketing drawcard) that is somewhat unlikely


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## ahammel

dgee said:


> If they can afford to have their coats made - or prioritise spending on concert gear!


If they're not being paid enough to afford decent clothes, _that's_ the problem, not the uniform. It's completely outrageous to pay your employees so little that they can't afford the stuff they have to buy to keep their jobs.

As for the stiff white collars: that's silly both for practical reasons and because stiff white collars haven't been fashionable for nearly a century. Those should be done away with.


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## DrKilroy

Stiff white collars are still obligatory with full dress, so I recommend not to do away with them, if you want to look professional.  

But with dinner suits (tuxedos) they are indeed optional.

Best regards, Dr


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## ahammel

My mistake: the menswear authorities do indeed seem to insist on a wing-collar for white-tie dress. Sorry, violinists.


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## hreichgott

Everyone wears black cocktail dresses. Problem solved.


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## PetrB

hreichgott said:


> Everyone wears black cocktail dresses. Problem solved.


Damn! Just when I finally have it down to a minimalist no-brainer pick anything out of the closet and whatever I put on will look o.k., you tell me I need a black cocktail dress... can it be floor-length so I don't have to shave my legs or wear stockings or tights? or is full length no longer a cocktail dress? I'm in foreign territory here.

Please advise.


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## Lunasong

Cocktail dress is knee-length and often sleeveless. The classic LBD.


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## PetrB

Lunasong said:


> Cocktail dress is knee-length and often sleeveless. The classic LBD.


With all the acronyms flying about at present, maybe we should clarify the LB above is for "Little Black" Dress.

Actually, knew that -- while stage dresses should be knee length _while the wearer is sitting down_ i.e. lower hemline than the usual available off-the rack selections.

But, Since I'm a guy and used to them, I'll stay with pants, thanks.


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## Lunasong

Stylin'. Nice look, Petr.


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## PetrB

Lunasong said:


> Stylin'. Nice look, Petr.


I really don't have the legs for that look... and where the hell are the pockets?


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## Sid James

In a recent interview, pianist Jacques Yves Thibaudet had this to say: "Classical music must change its image from being old-fashioned and rooted in old Europe. It has been the same for hundreds of years...it has become rigid and I think we need to keep changing, in order to attract new audiences of young people. It can't be boring. It's sometimes old and dusty. Why do men have to wear tails?" He's got an avid interest in fashion, besides his day job of music. "My fashion sense helps in liberating classical music. It can be made fresh. I think classical music needs to be more modern, and I like to bring something new to the stage."

I think he's got a point. We don't need something tacky like Liberace, nor do we need musos to dress down too much (eg. T-shirts). I think more modern variations on formal dress, which has been happening for a while now, is the way to go. Its still black and white, but at least not stuck in the 19th century. I'm no fashionista but I'm sure there are creative types in that area out there who can do a makeover - albeit tasteful and appropriate - for concert hall attire in the 21st century?


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## elgar's ghost

Even the British Army were liberated from wearing the leather neck-stock during the 19th century without any detriment to the smartness of the uniform - surely it's time to let the equally user-unfriendly starched collar go but without resorting to the ridiculous extremes that La Westwood and her ilk would foist upon the concert hall given the chance?


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## elgar's ghost

That bloke shows as much enthusiasm as an old nag heading to the glue factory. However much the money it can't be that rewarding being paid to publicly look an **** in order to pander to someone's self-indulgence - sorry - creativity.


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## ahammel

By way of reference, this is Jean-Yves Thibaudet:









I can't say I'm very fond of the...cravat-like thing? But aside from that he looks quite sharp.

Really, black tie should be quite formal enough.


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## DrKilroy

He looks plain silly. 

Let's stick to the classics. If a stiff collar bothers you, wear a dinner suit. It can look perfectly modern.

Best regards, Dr


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## Sid James

ahammel said:


> By way of reference, this is Jean-Yves Thibaudet:
> 
> ...I can't say I'm very fond of the...cravat-like thing? But aside from that he looks quite sharp.
> 
> Really, black tie should be quite formal enough.


In light of that, what about classical going for something more relaxed as in outside classical, but still not over the top. Eg. people like B. B. King and Ray Charles (pictures below) had some sort of fashion sense.

As for the argument that clothes can detract attention from the music, well I think if people get used to classical updating its image then it won't be a big deal. If things never changed, we'd be back in the times of guys wearing stockings and wigs. Whether we like it or not, image is everything today.

So it's got to be updated, we're not in something like 1863. Exactly how this is done is another more specific matter.

But image wise, going for a new look can increase people's attraction to the music as well, if they react positively to an effort to go with the times. The music doesn't change, but the look - and I think another issue, format - of traditional concerts has, for one thing its one of the ways to bring more people into the fold and let classical be more interesting and shed that boring image that Thibaudet talked about.


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## PetrB

ahammel said:


> Does anybody really think an orchestra isn't visually interesting? Wow.
> 
> I often hear the complaint that a suit must be uncomfortable for the male performers, but a suit that actually fits is in fact very comfortable. Dress slacks in particular are far more light and comfortable than jeans and anybody who says otherwise is a filthy liar.
> 
> The jackets seems a bit restrictive on the arm movements for the violins and violas, though.Maybe the dudes could wear waistcoats instead. That would be stylin'.


Concert formal wear is an investment, and those tuxedos are far from the ordinary tailor made formal wear for 'civilians.'

They are cut for complete comfort of necessary movement for each player's specific needs as per their instrument.

A pianist will lose easily as much weight per performance as a circus performer active for the same duration, ditto a violinist, etc. as well as any sitting on stage and playing for nearly two hours -- and much of that is water loss, that's right, through the pores and underarms.

Those performance tuxedos usually have removable sweat-pads in the underarms -- not at all a standard feature -- so the pads can be readily removed, washed, and put back without necessitating what would otherwise be a need for crazily frequent (and expensive and hard-wear on the clothing) dry-cleaning.

Not your normal tuxedo, then: often the women's jackets have similar also unseen special accommodations. This makes these stage garments more like sportswear disguised as formal wear, and they 'suit' the occasion of working very well.


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## Couac Addict

Does it matter that some of the attraction is watching musicians in unison (particularly the strings). Won't that effect be lost if we're all wearing our own thing. 

What about the 40-year age gap between musicians? Has Westwood accounted for this or will our 25yr cellist be wearing the same fashions as out 65yr harpist?


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