# Metal music for Classicalheads



## Herzeleide

None, zero, zilch; don't go near it, it's terrible.


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## Bach

Metal is the worst genre of pop music. Funk, hip-hop and reggae are the best.


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## Weston

Well now -- it wouldn't hurt too much to don some ear plugs and check out a group called *Leaves Eyes* (it's a play on the lead singer's name and yes, she can sing). They do very Scandinavian Viking saga sounding pieces with her soaring soprano over the top of some grunting cookie monster death metal male "vocals." It's a very weird and kind of epic effect to those of us who still want to be about testosterone once in a while and who are curious what Ragnorok might sound like.

But - don't forget the ear plugs.


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## Aramis

I was a huge metal fan few years ago. But I grew up and things that used to kick me then, are now not good enough. Even progressive metal is often a terrible crap, like Dream Theater. I just can't see how pieces based on guitar shredding makes them worthy even to be compared with classical. However, I still got much respect for some metal bands that play interesting, valueable music.


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## Mr Dull

I was put off Metal by the way all the groups started to do the same predictable things all the time even to the same moves on stage. However its not all bad. Keep trying different groups and you will eventually find something you like. Incidentally Herzeleide I was wondering if you new Rammsteins music as your name is almost the same as one of their albums.


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## Herzeleide

Mr Dull said:


> Incidentally Herzeleide I was wondering if you new Rammsteins music as your name is almost the same as one of their albums.


Herzeleide is the name of Parsifal's mother in the music drama of the same name by Richard Wagner.


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## Bach

r u my muther?


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## JTech82

Bach said:


> Metal is the worst genre of pop music. Funk, hip-hop and reggae are the best.


Jazz blows all of them away, but I don't even consider apart of those ridiculous genres of music you mentioned.


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## Praine

I'm sure Bach was just trolling. He couldn't of possibly believed in such a ridiculous claim.


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## Tapkaara

ANOTHER thread devoted to this topic?


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## Praine

I believe the other one was just about metal in general, while this one is devoted to metal that classical enthusiasts can enjoy. Nonetheless, I still believe that it is unnecessary.


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## Aramis

JTech82 said:


> Jazz blows all of them away, but I don't even consider apart of those ridiculous genres of music you mentioned.


Jazz is closely connected to funk, it's like saying that classical music blows away baroque music.


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## Yagan Kiely

What a **** title post: no-matter my opinion on metal.



> Jazz blows all of them away, but I don't even consider apart of those ridiculous genres of music you mentioned.


Jazz isn't really a sub-genre of 'pop' music any more, it's more closely related to Classical in how it is treated now-a-days.



> Jazz is closely connected to funk, it's like saying that classical music blows away baroque music.


You are getting them the other way round, fun is connected to Jazz. Your wording suggests - though it doesn't empirically say - that the first influenced the second, and your comparison to classical vs. baroque backs this up. And either way, how does there connection make one better than the other - or stop one from being better for that matter?



> ANOTHER thread devoted to this topic?


The title poster seems to enjoy trolling, antagonising people for his own personal justification. The moderation team seem to think that makes the forum better.


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## Herzeleide

Tapkaara said:


> ANOTHER thread devoted to this topic?


This thread is a joke. 'Classicalheads'.


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## Yagan Kiely

I'm still laughing.


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## Rachovsky

Yagan Kiely said:


> I'm still laughing.


Back with a vengeance?


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## Yagan Kiely

I don't see how this thread which has the sole purpose of increasing antagonism is a valid entry in this forum.



> Back with a vengeance?


Put it this way: I'm not going to stop voicing and defending my opinion until the mods put that in the ToS/CoC, and if they do, I'll leave anyway. In the latest arguments I haven't at all used an ad hominem argument, yet they are used against me all the time... Go figure.


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## Rachovsky

Yagan Kiely said:


> Put it this way: I'm not going to stop voicing and defending my opinion until the mods put that in the ToS/CoC, and if they do, I'll leave anyway. In the latest arguments I haven't at all used an ad hominem argument, yet they are used against me all the time... Go figure.


For once, I agree with you. -- And yes, this thread is quite pointless.


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## Yagan Kiely

Thankyou.

I'm not saying that earlier on I didn't use ad hominems; I did (in my defence I was just going along with the croud - no real excuse though), but I did tidy them up - unlike some.


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## Herzeleide

Rachovsky said:


> For once, I agree with you. -- And yes, this thread is quite pointless.


Indeed it is, but so are most threads, since they fulfil no practical need. Leisure is by defintion pointless... that's the appeal!


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## Rachovsky

Herzeleide said:


> Indeed it is, but so are most threads, since they fulfil no practical need. Leisure is by defintion pointless... that's the appeal!


Your right, this could be argued against everything.
Life is pointless. I guess that's the appeal...to live.
Do I make sense? lol


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## Herzeleide

Rachovsky said:


> Life is pointless. I guess that's the appeal...to live.
> Do I make sense? lol


That's a very poetic point.


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## Bach

Reign of Praine said:


> I'm sure Bach was just trolling. He couldn't of possibly believed in such a ridiculous claim.


Of course I believe it - metal is geeky rot.

I don't consider Jazz a genre of popular music.


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## Praine

Bach said:


> Of course I believe it - metal is geeky rot.
> 
> I don't consider Jazz a genre of popular music.


I'm not talking about that part of your statement; I could care less about metal. I was talking about the part where you said,



Bach said:


> Funk, hip-hop and reggae are the best.


Surely you don't believe that, do you?


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## Bach

Why? Just because they're incompatible with a frigid, middle class lifestyle?


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## nickgray

> Funk, hip-hop and reggae are the best.





> Of course I believe it - metal is geeky rot.





> I don't consider Jazz a genre of popular music.


Oh my... Elitism at its best.


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## Edward Elgar

No, because hip-hoppers go around popping caps in home dawg's asses for bringing trash into their back yard! At least Pavarotti didn't die of a bullet wound!


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## Praine

Bach said:


> Why? Just because they're incompatible with a frigid, middle class lifestyle?


If you are implying that hip-hop and those other genres are only compatible with an executive, higher class lifestyle, then you are clearly need to re-evaluate your tastes as an 'intellectual listener'.


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## Yagan Kiely

> Oh my... Elitism at its best.


Jazz isn't in the same society it was when it started, it's in a closer culture to Classical Music now.

Well... at least in Australia.


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## Yagan Kiely

> No, because hip-hoppers go around popping caps in home dawg's asses for bringing trash into their back yard! At least Pavarotti didn't die of a bullet wound!


I remember some terrible lecture I had at uni. It's the Classical department and we had a lecture by OHS (Occupational Health and Safety) and she gave all these examples of rap, hip-hop etc. where there have been murders, stabbing etc. etc.... and everyone was just thinking.. what does this have to do with us?

To cap it all off, two years later we had a year-long lecturer say that marketing for classical music and jazz is exactly the same as marketing for a band. Yeah... I can see a string quartet going into a pup and getting great reviews!

(sorry about this... slightly OT)


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## Bach

Reign of Praine said:


> If you are implying that hip-hop and those other genres are only compatible with an executive, higher class lifestyle, then you are clearly need to re-evaluate your tastes as an 'intellectual listener'.


I'm not implying that. They're compatible with a funky, open, sexy lifestyle.

Only ganster rap deals with violence - tunes like "rapper's delight" don't, that's what I'm talking about.


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## Edward Elgar

Bach said:


> They're compatible with a funky, open, sexy lifestyle.


So is classical music! I've used Berio's Sequenza IV many times to get the ladies in the mood!


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## jurianbai

aiya, metal is good and entertaining. 

the other thread is 90% using example from a very very extreme sub genre in metal (the death metal,doom metal etc..) to argue against classical metal, which is very entertaining to read. but there is other 'light' side of metal that enough to say metal is good and entertaining to listen. why not start with classic metal band like deep purple?


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## Vegg

Here, listen to these. As posted in the other thread


























Yes I know this thread is a joke, but some of you might actually enjoy these. You never know.


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## Contrapunctus666

Enslaved - Midgards Eldar

Try this instead of **** Vegg posted.


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## Bach

Contrapunctus666 said:


> Enslaved - Midgards Eldar
> 
> Try this instead of **** Vegg posted.


WOW! That really spoke to me! I think I might be turning into a metalhead!


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## Metalheadwholovesclasical

Herzeleide said:


> None, zero, zilch; don't go near it, it's terrible.


Your post shows your frustration and how you secretly know we as metal fans are correct back in the Metal Music thread.

You are a pathetic human being. Show some maturity my friend, I am sure you have it. Use it.


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## Herzeleide

Metalheadwholovesclasical said:


> Your post shows your frustration and how you secretly know we as metal fans are correct back in the Metal Music thread.
> 
> You are a pathetic human being. Show some maturity my friend, I am sure you have it. Use it.


Wow, with such persuasive writing, you must be some sort of rhetorician. I realise now that I have been mistaken and must change my view about metal.

Thanks for opening this new artistic door in my life.


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## Metalheadwholovesclasical

Herzeleide said:


> Wow, with such persuasive writing, you must be some sort of rhetorician. I realise now that I have been mistaken and must change my view about metal.
> 
> Thanks for opening this new artistic door in my life.


No problem


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## Contrapunctus666

Metalheadwholovesclasical said:


> Your post shows your frustration and *how you secretly know* we as metal fans are correct back in the Metal Music thread.
> 
> You are a pathetic human being. Show some maturity my friend, I am sure you have it. Use it.


That is the most important thing. "It is easy to avoid something in letter, but not in spirit, you know."


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## Rasa

Classical:










Metal










Quod erat demonstrandum


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## Conservationist

Yagan Kiely said:


> Jazz isn't really a sub-genre of 'pop' music any more, it's more closely related to Classical in how it is treated now-a-days.


It's pop music to me. And so repetitive, stale and a stupid idea artistically from the start!


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## Conservationist

Contrapunctus666 said:


> Enslaved - Midgards Eldar
> 
> Try this instead of **** Vegg posted.


Now that is an excellent suggestion.


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## Herzeleide

Conservationist said:


> It's pop music to me. And so repetitive, stale and a stupid idea artistically from the start!


Strange how you still have not managed to explain why jazz has inspired so many great composers - its impact on twentieth century music is palpable - and yet the same could not be said of metal.

Jazz is harmonically much more sophisticated than metal, with a fully formed harmonic grammar which encompasses elements of counterpoint.

Chord/melody style:






It's highly lyrical, harmonically sophisticated, imbued with feeling and expression. There's no vulgar, rebarbative musical sludge that metal seems to mostly consists of.

Jazzers know all about harmonic substitutions, embellishment, various approaches to tackling chord changes. It's infinitely more interesting, tasteful and expressive than metal.


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## Contrapunctus666

Just because something influences something else doesn't make it good. For example, Judas Priest and Iron Maiden have influenced a shitload of metal bands but, in fact, they both suck.



> Jazzers know all about harmonic substitutions, embellishment, various approaches to tackling chord changes.


And yet fail to create something good.


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## Herzeleide

Contrapunctus666 said:


> And yet fail to create something good.


No, it's precisely this kind of stuff which makes their music interesting.

They're harmonically literate. Metal is the stuff of a grammatically inept poet.

And influences ought to be taken seriously, when the people being influenced are geniuses who have dedicated their life to their art.


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## Metalheadwholovesclasical

Herzeleide said:


> Strange how you still have not managed to explain why jazz has inspired so many great composers - its impact on twentieth century music is palpable - and yet the same could not be said of metal.
> 
> Jazz is harmonically much more sophisticated than metal, with a fully formed harmonic grammar which encompasses elements of counterpoint.
> 
> Chord/melody style:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It's highly lyrical, harmonically sophisticated, imbued with feeling and expression. There's no vulgar, rebarbative musical sludge that metal seems to mostly consists of.
> 
> Jazzers know all about harmonic substitutions, embellishment, various approaches to tackling chord changes. It's infinitely more interesting, tasteful and expressive than metal.


Much like metal.


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## Rasa

No.


harmonic grammar: Metal's harmonic grammar consists of I, IV, V, filled with nonsensical chords.


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## Herzeleide

Rasa said:


> No.
> 
> harmonic grammar: Metal's harmonic grammar consists of I, IV, V, filled with nonsensical chords.


Agreed.


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## sam richards

Rasa said:


> No.
> 
> harmonic grammar: Metal's harmonic grammar consists of I, IV, V, filled with nonsensical chords.


NWOBHM Metal is mostly modal. Black metal is based on dissonance and uses diminshed scales. I IV V was used in early metal/rock. Death metal uses Whole tone and whole-half diminished scales. Modal Death metal use locrian modes.

e.g. Wherever I may roam by Metallica is based on E Phrygian mode:
http://www.last.fm/music/Metallica/+videos/9431849

The Progression in the song is E5-F5 F5-G5 A5-G5-F5-E5

Just stop trying.


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## Herzeleide

sam richards said:


> e.g. Wherever I may roam by Metallica is based on E Phrygian mode:
> http://www.last.fm/music/Metallica/+videos/9431849
> 
> The Progression in the song is E5-F5 F5-G5 A5-G5-F5-E5
> 
> Just stop trying.


Still primitive compared to Jazz and Classical. Have Metallica discovered yet that chords can contain more than just a fifth?


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## sam richards

Herzeleide said:


> Still primitive compared to Jazz and Classical. Have Metallica discovered that a chords can contain more than just a fifth?


YES, that's what I am saying: Classical>jazz>metal>all.
And it's still not I IV V, which you supported.

As I have said in the earlier thread full chords cannot be used with distorted guitar because of the intermodulation distortion. Distortion adds extra harmonies anyway.
This is one of the trademarks of the genre.

If you want harmony with Metal, look at symphonic metal.

One of the things I like about metal is the energy, no other music genre can energize the listener so much.
Look at this (largest concert ever) : 



The energy is awesome.


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## sam richards

Here is a another prog metal metal for classical lovers; listen to this and tell me it isn't beautiful.
http://www.playlist.com/searchbeta/tracks#Ne Obliviscaris
Play: Forget not. 
They are a black metal band called Ne Obliviscaris. They blend Classical, Jazz, Flamenco and Technical Death Metal with black metal. 

Another song: "Tapestry of Starless Abstract" on their profile on Ultimate-guitar. This is heavy, and I would recommend it for the metalheads. But Non-metalheads, skip to 3:40 If you tolerate the heaviness

Oh, and ANUSites/Tr00 gr1m kvlt kiddies are not allowed.


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## Bach

Nice improvisation in the first tune, especially the violinist - thought the drumming became a bit excessive and the vocals were a bit american-pop/rocky - ergo slightly annoying.

The second one was just a bit gross. Computer generated noise with horrid teen screamo vocals. Not very tasteful.

I'm coming to realise that the primary difference between prog-metal and prog-rock is the drumming and vocal styles. My observation being that both can be a little over the top in metal.


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## Clancy

Bach said:


> I'm coming to realise that the primary difference between prog-metal and prog-rock is the drumming and vocal styles. My observation being that both can be a little over the top in metal.


Excuse me for just jumping in like this, but in my experience the denser "heavier" textures of prog-metal can stop it descending into a complete cheese-fest as it were, providing a counterbalance to the instrumental virtuosity/noodling going on over the top. As for it being over the top, I find this to be a question of expectation - it is almost like criticising reggae for being joyful, or indie rock for being melancholic, the theatricality/intensity of metal is simply part of the genre. I mean, the moment when they drop in the blastbeats unexpectedly (the fastest part) is absolutely electrifying, magnificent stuff!

Sam, thanks for posting those guys. I have some reservations about the screamed vocals (bit angsty for my taste) but otherwise a rare example of a good prog-metal band.

As a contribution I will just leave this, the gentlest track off Blut Aus Nord's latest album. It is simple but effective (and lacks harsh vocals).


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## sam richards

Bach said:


> The second one was just a bit gross. Computer generated noise with horrid teen screamo vocals. Not very tasteful.


In the second song, skip to 3:40, there is a soft section with violin and acoustic guitar. And no, it's not computer-generated noise. Here is a live performance of the second song:


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## Conservationist

> *Band: Obliveon*
> *Genre: Technical Death Metal*
> *Recommended album: From This Day Forward*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> When Obliveon took on technical metal, they aspired to find a unique voice in a genre that was so rapidly developing it had no boundaries. Much like countrymen Voivod, Obliveon harmonize their melodies with a feel of different planes of evolution intersecting, which underscores the technological theme of this technical death metal.
> 
> Obliveon reviews
> 
> Obliveon - From This Day Forward $5


This is a sloppy but interesting effort. Even Herzleide may find something good in it, if his mind is open


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## Herzeleide

Conservationist said:


> This is a sloppy but interesting effort. Even Herzleide may find something good in it, if his mind is open


I'm not sure. I'm a leftist and leftists only like music which they can attribute to the psychology of hegemony LOL.


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## Conservationist

sam richards said:


> NWOBHM Metal is mostly modal. Black metal is based on dissonance and uses diminshed scales. I IV V was used in early metal/rock. Death metal uses Whole tone and whole-half diminished scales. Modal Death metal use locrian modes.
> 
> e.g. Wherever I may roam by Metallica is based on E Phrygian mode:
> http://www.last.fm/music/Metallica/+videos/9431849
> 
> The Progression in the song is E5-F5 F5-G5 A5-G5-F5-E5
> 
> Just stop trying.


Metal reminds me of early music: it's melody without an anchoring harmony, hence the heavy emphasis on chromatic and the whole-half diminished scales you mention.


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## Conservationist

Herzeleide said:


> I'm a leftist and leftists only like music which they can attribute to the psychology of hegemony LOL.


I did LOL. Leftism is a mental disease; philosophy and real-world experience are the cure!

cheers


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## Herzeleide

Conservationist said:


> I did LOL. Leftism is a mental disease; philosophy and real-world experience are the cure!
> 
> cheers


Unfortunately I think most people would agree that it is Naziism that is symptomatic of gross mental ill-health, and warrants all the obloquy it gets.

Your 'cures' are hilarious; philosophy in itself can mean anything, as can 'real-world' experience.



Conservationist said:


> Metal reminds me of early music: it's melody without an anchoring harmony, hence the heavy emphasis on chromatic and the whole-half diminished scales you mention.


Except that there's plenty of 'early music' which does feature 'anchoring' harmony.


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## Conservationist

Herzeleide said:


> Unfortunately I think most people would agree that it is Naziism that is symptomatic of gross mental ill-health, and warrants all the obloquy it gets.
> 
> Your 'cures' are hilarious; philosophy in itself can mean anything, as can 'real-world' experience.


Most people think Naziism is a form of leftism.

Philosophy is a language; it has a grammar, and some things can be proven stupid.


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## Herzeleide

Conservationist said:


> Most people think Naziism is a form of leftism.
> 
> Philosophy is a language; it has a grammar, and some things can be proven stupid.


For most people any variety of fascism is the opposite of leftism.

Philosophy is rather more than just a 'language'. Though the facet of philosophy known as logic is rather good at exposing intellectual rubbish, such as appeals to emotion and rhetoric seen in, for example, Hitler's speeches or religious preaching.


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## Conservationist

Herzeleide said:


> For most people any variety of fascism is the opposite of leftism.


Nazism isn't fascism, it's national socialism. There's some key differences.

Second, philosophy is a language; it separates bad logic from sane logic. It can be applied to many things.

Finally, other than black metal, I fail to see the relevance to this thread.


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## Herzeleide

Conservationist said:


> Nazism isn't fascism, it's national socialism. There's some key differences.
> 
> Second, philosophy is a language; it separates bad logic from sane logic. It can be applied to many things.


Yes, yes yes... just like Romantic music is 'realist', I guess.


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## Clancy

Back on topic:

Sunn O))) do an interesting "drone metal" variant which has attracted the interest of avant garde types, and they can trace a lineage back to minimalist composer La Monte Young via the band Earth (who basically came up with this genre). No drums, no choruses, no solos, and they've recently done a collaboration with contemporary composer Eyvind Kang which turned out very well, I thought.

They are the kind of band that works best live since they are all about the sheer physical presence of their sound, but their best stuff easily stands alone. Here is the most classically-oriented track off their collaboration with Kang.


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## sam richards

^^^
Wow, that was really something different. Never heard of the band; will check them out.

Btw, Fractaltrees check your PM


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## Conservationist

Herzeleide said:


> just like Romantic music is 'realist'


It is. Romanticism is a mode of interpretation, not a withdrawal from reality.


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## Dedrater

Herzeleide said:


> Yes, yes yes... just like Romantic music is 'realist', I guess.


Irrationalism and escapism don't even occupy the same metaphysical thought spaces, let alone are congruent.

If you're being a pedant and adopting the trivial distinction between Romanticist art and Realist art, consider that Romanticism was realist in that it understood the human principle of *potential*, while Realism as an artistic movement perceived reality simply as populist and immediate, diminishing the possibility that any of its proponents would contribute to the change required by a culture to approximate the physical world as closely as possible in its mode of living.


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## sam richards

Dedrater said:


> Irrationalism and escapism don't even occupy the same metaphysical thought spaces, let alone are congruent.
> 
> If you're being a pedant and adopting the trivial distinction between Romanticist art and Realist art, consider that Romanticism was realist in that it understood the human principle of *potential*, while Realism as an artistic movement perceived reality simply as populist and immediate, diminishing the possibility that any of its proponents would contribute to the change required by a culture to approximate the physical world as closely as possible in its mode of living.


LOL  
So much stupidity.


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## Conservationist

sam richards said:


> LOL
> So much stupidity.


You're behaving like a hipster.

You cannot refute any of his points, so you retreat behind some judgment, as if we're supposed to take your word as law.

Dude, that's how all internet nutcases behave. Why not try maturity instead?


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## Dedrater

sam richards said:


> LOL
> So much stupidity.


Reality:










'Realist' reality (fatalism/complacency):


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## Conservationist

Dedrater said:


> If you're being a pedant and adopting the trivial distinction between Romanticist art and Realist art, consider that Romanticism was realist in that it understood the human principle of *potential*, while Realism as an artistic movement perceived reality simply as populist and immediate, diminishing the possibility that any of its proponents would contribute to the change required by a culture to approximate the physical world as closely as possible in its mode of living.


There's also lower-case-r realist, which means someone who pays more attention to reality than human judgments of it.


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## Conservationist

Weston said:


> Well now -- it wouldn't hurt too much to don some ear plugs and check out a group called *Leaves Eyes* (it's a play on the lead singer's name and yes, she can sing). They do very Scandinavian Viking saga sounding pieces with her soaring soprano over the top of some grunting cookie monster death metal male "vocals." It's a very weird and kind of epic effect to those of us who still want to be about testosterone once in a while and who are curious what Ragnorok might sound like.


I didn't realize this band contained half of Atrocity (Roederer and Krull).

Good find.


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## Atelier

Are you aware that Atrocity is playing some extremely bizarre music now, considering their roots? Notably and recently, "The Sound of Silence" was covered for Watchmen.

Let me touch your deadly emptiness...


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## andruini

I don't generally like metal, but I did once see Sunn O))) play live and it was one of the most intense anythings I've ever experienced.. It's awesome to trip out and blast some Sunn O))) some times.. I like their record with Boris (another awesome band).. And I also like Earth quite a bit..


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## Conservationist

andruini said:


> I don't generally like metal, but I did once see Sunn O))) play live and it was one of the most intense anythings I've ever experienced.. It's awesome to trip out and blast some Sunn O))) some times.. I like their record with Boris (another awesome band).. And I also like Earth quite a bit..


Interesting. Sunn 0))) seems to be making inroads into mainstream music, which is interesting.

I like some doom metal stuff like that. Winter, Skepticism, Thergothon. Mixes well with K.K. Null!


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## Sid James

Interesting how the person who created this thread, Herzeleide, is long gone, but it continues to live on...


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## Dedrater

Speaking of doom, I've recently taken note of Shape of Despair, who apparently receive credit for participating in the genesis of funeral doom along with Skepticism and Thergothon. I just heard a few songs from their first album, and they don't sound too bad, but so far, I prefer Thergothon and Skepticism. Are they worth wasting time on?


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## bdelykleon

"doom", "shape of despair", "skepticism", o man, I love those names, keep it going. I think there is something called "cradle of flith", I couldn't describe metal better myself...


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## Dedrater

bdelykleon said:


> "doom", "shape of despair", "skepticism", o man, I love those names, keep it going. I think there is something called "cradle of flith", I couldn't describe metal better myself...


Yes, Shape of Despair. There's also: Averse Sefira, Malevolent Creation, Beherit, Anaal Nathrakh, I Shalt Become, Ras Algethi, Celtic Frost. Some of the names have to do with cosmology, metaphysics, occultism, literature, etc. I don't think names are particularly important, though.

Cradle of Filth is not a metal band, by the way.


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## Gangsta Tweety Bird

Dedrater said:


> Cradle of Filth is not a metal band, by the way.


lol

i do not like [element of set] therefore [element of set] is not in [set]

why do people do this


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## Conservationist

Dedrater said:


> Speaking of doom, I've recently taken note of Shape of Despair, who apparently receive credit for participating in the genesis of funeral doom along with Skepticism and Thergothon. I just heard a few songs from their first album, and they don't sound too bad, but so far, I prefer Thergothon and Skepticism. Are they worth wasting time on?


Skepticism is phenomenal. I think classical fans could appreciate its qualities.


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## Mirror Image

Conservationist said:


> Skepticism is phenomenal. I think classical fans could appreciate its qualities.


I'm just curious why metal fans are trying to convert classical fans to metal or make them enjoy it? You clearly see people around here, besides the obvious metal fans, don't enjoy metal and don't want to discuss it.

If we enjoyed it, then we would be on another forum talking about metal. Most of us are here to talk about classical music, so I think it's really pointless to try and make classical fans see metal as some kind of "high art" when they don't feel it is.


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## Dedrater

Gangsta Tweety-Bird said:


> lol
> 
> i do not like [element of set] therefore [element of set] is not in [set]
> 
> why do people do this


I'm not interested in sets; they're arbitrary groupings of abstract qualities. The qualities are what interest me. However, because it is convenient to use genre descriptors when discussing music, it will be a necessity to arbitrarily group musical qualities from time to time. But what qualities should we place under the descriptor? Finally, does a band's overall worth get judged by its association with this descriptor, or is the descriptor used only to save time when dealing with the qualities?

There's a lot of really bad metal out there, but it is definitively metal. Nu metal bands aren't conventionally accepted as metal bands, despite using power chords and screamed vocals. Why should Cradle of Filth be treated any differently? Bonus points if you avoid accusing me of calling Cradle of Filth a nu metal band.


----------



## bassClef

I'd love to be a fly on the wall when metal band members discuss what their band's name should be - must be hilarious.


----------



## Gangsta Tweety Bird

what is metal? (no anus links please)


----------



## Conservationist

Mirror Image said:


> I'm just curious why metal fans are trying to convert classical fans to metal or make them enjoy it? You clearly see people around here, besides the obvious metal fans, don't enjoy metal and don't want to discuss it.


No, I see a small group whose sense of pretense has been offended by metal's inclusion, and they can't shut up about it. Basic immaturity on their part.


----------



## Conservationist

Gangsta Tweety-Bird said:


> what is metal? (no anus links please)


Here's a link from the net's oldest source of this nature:

Heavy Metal F.A.Q.


----------



## andruini

Do Porcupine Tree count as metal? I quite like them..
And I like Opeth and Meshuggah fine too..
Does Ayreon count? Because I really liked The Human Equation..
I must be making a fool of myself trying to talk about metal bands that don't have names like Excrement or Annihilation of Doom or something hahaha..


----------



## Dedrater

andruini said:


> I don't generally like metal, but I did once see Sunn O))) play live and it was one of the most intense anythings I've ever experienced.. It's awesome to trip out and blast some Sunn O))) some times.. I like their record with Boris (another awesome band).. And I also like Earth quite a bit..


What is the appeal of Sunn O))) to fans of indie and related music? I don't mean this disrespectfully, nor do I dislike Sunn O))) -- they're interesting to listen to once in a while. But what's the appeal to someone who likes, say, The Smiths and Cat Power? Is there an explicable appeal at all, or is it just mindless fad hopping?

Sunn O))) also seem to incorporate elements of drone into their music. Separating their influences, I'd rather take Skepticism and maybe the ambient group Maeror Tri, who do rather different things but more effectively than Sunn O))).



andruini said:


> And I like Opeth and Meshuggah fine too..


Opeth sounds like basic rock music with growled vocals and their songs are long and boring. They throw the occasional bland acoustic passage in to seem eclectic, but if I want acoustic guitar, there's plenty of stuff within the classical repertoire that beats this. Meshuggah are also reminiscent of rock, and if it weren't for their time signature gimmick, they'd probably be passable as professional wrestling music.


----------



## andruini

Well I didn't expect anything different after trying to chime in about something I know absolutely nothing about.. These are the "Metal" groups I've heard and if they're not good, that's just too bad, because to be honest my interest in hearing anything more faded long ago.. 
Thus ends my incursion into the metal threads.


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## Dedrater

What a typical, uncalled for reaction. It's like walking on eggshells around here.

You're going to refuse to discuss why Sunn O))) has appeal with fans of indie music? I was genuinely curious as to why there is appeal, and was hoping you could shed some light on this. I hope you didn't feel attacked when I challenged the conception of Opeth and Meshuggah as metal, because I don't think what a person has been exposed to musically says anything about them or their accomplishments in life. To be productive, I'll recommend you check out Burzum's _Hyvis Lyset Tar Oss_ (Tomhet is a brilliant piece of ambient music), and leave it at that.


----------



## andruini

No, you have me wrong, I wan't mad or defensive.. I was just saying that I don't know anything.. I mean I was just trying for the sake of forum peace to chime in about some bands I've heard.. I knew they would be bad bands to experienced metalheads, so that's all I meant when I said that's all I expected..

I don't know why Sunn O))) appeals to indie music fans.. I guess it's because Pitchfork told them it's cool to like them or something.. I myself hadn't heard of Sunn O))) until I saw them live.. I just like it from time to time, as I said, to trip out.. That's all.. It's like putting on some Eno, only much darker and heavier.. That's why I like it (sometimes)..

I've heard some Burzum, but frankly I can't stomach it.. I also heard some Mayhem, but that is all way too hardcore for me.. 

Sorry about the misunderstanding.. Friends? lol


----------



## Dedrater

andruini said:


> I myself hadn't heard of Sunn O))) until I saw them live.. I just like it from time to time, as I said, to trip out.. That's all.. It's like putting on some Eno, only much darker and heavier.. That's why I like it (sometimes)..


You might not mind some Burzum after all, then. The aforementioned Tomhet (in 2 parts, apparently, because of the YouTube limit):


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## andruini

Ok, I'll give it a go, thanks for the links..
EDIT: Ok, I'm listening.. But I'm not sure I would call this metal.. Would you? It's more like Dark Ambient or something, and that's not something I have a problem with.. I liked the song, though I have to be in a certain mood to listen to ambient of any kind..


----------



## Conservationist

andruini said:


> I don't know why Sunn O))) appeals to indie music fans.. I guess it's because Pitchfork told them it's cool to like them or something..


I can see the appeal. People like it because it's different and quite honestly, makes an extreme atmosphere without shoving it in people's faces. it's not like Suffocation, which tends to make normal people bug out their eyes and run because it's like getting hit with a chair, acoustically speaking. Sunn 0))) is perfect atmosphere, and in it they layer other music sometimes, making it really unique and appealing. It's not very metal in song structure but who cares


----------



## andruini

Conservationist said:


> I can see the appeal. People like it because it's different and quite honestly, makes an extreme atmosphere without shoving it in people's faces. it's not like Suffocation, which tends to make normal people bug out their eyes and run because it's like getting hit with a chair, acoustically speaking. Sunn 0))) is perfect atmosphere, and in it they layer other music sometimes, making it really unique and appealing. It's not very metal in song structure but who cares


Yeah, that's a really good point.. I admit I would bug out my eyes and run if that Burzum link he gave me had started with extreme guitar and drums and screaming.. And it's not that I can't listen to loud music or anything.. It's just that metal to non-metalheads really is like a big sledgehammer over our heads..


----------



## bdelykleon

I just noticed that the "metal forum" is over.

But a question to the remnant metalhead, why do you love so much Otorrino Respighi? I mean, every metal music text I read mentioned him, and he's quite a third rate composer.


----------



## Conservationist

bdelykleon said:


> he's quite a third rate composer.


So YOU say. Until I have reason to think you're a genius, I really don't care. I find him more artistic than some highly praised composers like Sibelius and Bax.



andruini said:


> It's just that metal to non-metalheads really is like a big sledgehammer over our heads.


Interesting. It doesn't strike me that way. It's just intense music in the oldest and most vital role of art: communicating experience.

Hip-hop, techno, rap, pop, jazz, blues, etc. is like a sledgehammer of tedium over my head. I cannot listen to it.


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## Mirror Image

Conservationist said:


> So YOU say. Until I have reason to think you're a genius, I really don't care. I find him more artistic than some highly praised composers like Sibelius and Bax.


You had me until you mentioned Bax and Sibelius lacking artistic merit. Bax and Sibelius are hardly praised around here as much as they should be. Respighi is a good composer, but he's certainly no Bax or Sibelius. I certainly disagree with you on this one.


----------



## Conservationist

Mirror Image said:


> You had me until you mentioned Bax and Sibelius lacking artistic merit. Bax and Sibelius are hardly praised around here as much as they should be. Respighi is a good composer, but he's certainly no Bax or Sibelius. I certainly disagree with you on this one.


This wording I can respect.


----------



## bdelykleon

Conservationist said:


> So YOU say. Until I have reason to think you're a genius, I really don't care. I find him more artistic than some highly praised composers like Sibelius and Bax.


Why do you think this? Please don't start with "tautological forms"... And by the way, I don't consider Sibelius or Bax any great.


----------



## Conservationist

bdelykleon said:


> I don't consider Sibelius or Bax any great.


There we agree. But what do you think about Sarcofago?


----------



## bdelykleon

Conservationist said:


> There we agree. But what do you think about Sarcofago?


NEver heard about them before, wikied them and found they come from the city I was born in. Heard a clip in youtube, but in respect (I know, not a very metal way to behave) I will omit my judgement.


----------



## slayericed

bdelykleon said:


> NEver heard about them before, wikied them and found they come from the city I was born in. Heard a clip in youtube, but in respect (I know, not a very metal way to behave) I will omit my judgement.


try this..




more metal from south america!


----------



## Conservationist

It's an acquired taste, but at least someone was willing to listen to underground metal.

The problem with these threads is that it's internet-classical-purists who haven't heard underground metal versus metalheads who have heard classical!


----------



## Dedrater

Conservationist said:


>


The intro (the first minute or so) to this song is flawless. Before the drums come in, I don't see how a legitimate appreciator of classical couldn't see some merit at least in it.


----------



## Mirror Image

Dedrater said:


> The intro (the first minute or so) to this song is flawless. Before the drums come in, I don't see how a legitimate appreciator of classical couldn't see some merit at least in it.


Flawless? I highly disagree. Metal cannot be taken seriously because 1. there's no history to metal, 2. it's played by juveniles and misfits with no music training and who can barely play an A minor chord, 3. if this music can be appreciated by classical fans, then why aren't people talking about it or remotely interested in it, besides the metalheads on this forum? 4. metal has no music theory or logic of it's own, therefore making it highly inferior to classical and jazz.


----------



## Dedrater

Mirror Image said:


> Flawless? I highly disagree. Metal cannot be taken seriously because 1. there's no history to metal, 2. it's played by juveniles and misfits with no music training and who can barely play an A minor chord, 3. if this music can be appreciated by classical fans, then why aren't people talking about it or remotely interested in it, besides the metalheads on this forum? 4. metal has no music theory or logic of it's own, therefore making it highly inferior to classical and jazz.


1. is wrong and irrelevant, 2. is also wrong, but I thought there were 'misfits' and drug addicts in jazz, and that this wasn't important. Confirmation bias crap, as usual. 3. is irrelevant, since most people only enjoy things superficially, and is another example of _argumentum ad populum_. 4. is a totally baffling statement, as jazz is about as illogical and incoherent in form as any type of music can be.


----------



## Mirror Image

Dedrater said:


> 1. is wrong and irrelevant, 2. is also wrong, but I thought there were 'misfits' and drug addicts in jazz, and that this wasn't important. Confirmation bias crap, as usual. 3. is irrelevant, since most people only enjoy things superficially, and is another example of _argumentum ad populum_. 4. is a totally baffling statement, as jazz is about as illogical and incoherent in form as any type of music can be.


If I'm so wrong, then why couldn't I major in Metal composition when I was in college? I'm talking about strictly academics not music's subjectivity. Metal is something that's not taken seriously around here. It's certainly not taken seriously in schools or colleges.


----------



## Dedrater

Mirror Image said:


> If I'm so wrong, then why couldn't I major in Metal composition when I was in college? I'm talking about strictly academics not music's subjectivity. Metal is something that's not taken seriously around here. It's certainly not taken seriously in schools or colleges.


As stated by others before, hip hop gets taught by colleges. The amount of people interested in a phenomenon has no direct bearing on its quality. Also, was jazz being taught in colleges during its earliest years?


----------



## Mirror Image

Dedrater said:


> As stated by others before, hip hop gets taught by colleges. The amount of people interested in a phenomenon has no direct bearing on its quality. Also, was jazz being taught in colleges during its earliest years?


I don't recall hip-hop being taught in any college, so you're definitely wrong about that. Give me 20 colleges in the United States alone that teach hip-hop courses, then you'll have a point, until then, you don't.

Classical and jazz are quality music that each have their own distinctive musical languages and history, metal does not, therefore metal is trite and has no historical significance whatsoever.


----------



## bdelykleon

Dedrater said:


> I don't see how a legitimate appreciator of classical couldn't see some merit at least in it.


Please, this song is incredibly repetitious, it doesn't have the least harmonic interest, all chords are overly diatonic, all melody is just small phrases incredibly banal, it doesn't show any kind of structural thought, and it is pretty much the same thing going all along the 8 minutes (about the same time of a Balade by Chopin), it has the same dynamic all the way through, the guy simply sings all same way all way through. I fail to see any musical interest in this stuff, sorry to say, but it is awful, really awful. The more metal I hear, the more I get puzzled on how metalheads consider their music close to classical. There is not the least likeness. Look what a good classical composer can do in half the time:


----------



## bdelykleon

In earnest what does this:





has to do with this:




?


----------



## Mirror Image

bdelykleon said:


> Please, this song is incredibly repetitious, it doesn't have the least harmonic interest, all chords are overly diatonic, all melody is just small phrases incredibly banal, it doesn't show any kind of structural thought, and it is pretty much the same thing going all along the 8 minutes (about the same time of a Balade by Chopin), it has the same dynamic all the way through, the guy simply sings all same way all way through. I fail to see any musical interest in this stuff, sorry to say, but it is awful, really awful. The more metal I hear, the more I get puzzled on how metalheads consider their music close to classical. There is not the least likeness. Look what a good classical composer can do in half the time:


Yes! Thank you!

These metalheads think their music is somehow legitimate, but it's not. It's the same old juvenile, thrash barre chords over and over again with no substance, no virtuosity, no depth, and no feeling.


----------



## Mirror Image

bdelykleon said:


> In earnest what does this:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> has to do with this:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ?


They share NOTHING in common, but that's not what they will have you to believe.


----------



## Dedrater

bdelykleon said:


> Please, this song is incredibly repetitious, it doesn't have the least harmonic interest, all chords are overly diatonic, all melody is just small phrases incredibly banal, it doesn't show any kind of structural thought, and it is pretty much the same thing going all along the 8 minutes (about the same time of a Balade by Chopin), it has the same dynamic all the way through, the guy simply sings all same way all way through. I fail to see any musical interest in this stuff, sorry to say, but it is awful, really awful. The more metal I hear, the more I get puzzled on how metalheads consider their music close to classical. There is not the least likeness. Look what a good classical composer can do in half the time:


What does any of that have to do with musical quality? You're barking up the wrong tree if you're going to argue that an arbitrary set of compositional preconceptions stemming from the Christian ethos has any absolute or inherent value that trumps any other musical structures. Again, why build the best car possible without concerning yourself with the car's destination? What if walking on foot or horse and buggy suffice?

The more you guys argue this academic drivel, the more evident it becomes that you're interested in _musical properties and structures,_ rather than in, firstly, the abstract motivations and emotions; then, secondly, the _whole, which is greater than the sum of its parts._ Ask yourself this prior to assessing any music you hear: Have the musical elements I'm referencing existed since music evolved? If not, they're probably means to an end rather than the end itself. This isn't rocket science.

You won't understand this for two reasons:

1. You're coming at this as pompous, well-learned know-it-alls who enjoy music with _more_ finite musical qualities conducive to stirring content over music with _less_ of those qualities -- without regard for the fact that nothing finite has any direct bearing on the original evolutionary significance of music. You _should_ be coming at this not as musicians, but as philosophers.

2. You are not genetically wired to enjoy conflict, struggle, power, or triumph. Experientially, we differ.


----------



## andruini

Can I just ask you something out of curiosity? 
You mention abstract motivations and emotions..
I like classical music, and music in general because of what it can make me feel.. I like classical because it makes me feel beauty, it makes me feel peace, and I don't mean these in the Hallmark card sense.. I just mean the world makes sense to me when I listen to classical music..
I can see how electronic music makes fans of it feel a certain mood which induces them to party harder, or whatever..
But with metal, I can't understand.. What does it make you feel? I would like to think you're not a violent individual, but what does the pleasure you derive from this music based upon?? What feelings does it produce in you that makes you love it so?
I hope you don't take this as an attack, I'm just sincerely curious..


----------



## Dedrater

andruini said:


> Can I just ask you something out of curiosity?
> You mention abstract motivations and emotions..
> I like classical music, and music in general because of what it can make me feel.. I like classical because it makes me feel beauty, it makes me feel peace, and I don't mean these in the Hallmark card sense.. I just mean the world makes sense to me when I listen to classical music..
> I can see how electronic music makes fans of it feel a certain mood which induces them to party harder, or whatever..
> But with metal, I can't understand.. What does it make you feel? I would like to think you're not a violent individual, but what does the pleasure you derive from this music based upon?? What feelings does it produce in you that makes you love it so?
> I hope you don't take this as an attack, I'm just sincerely curious..







This was created by a metal musician. While what I feel when I listen to metal differs from this -- and while there are many nuances in all genres and subgenres that make various forms of music worthwhile -- the truly great metal isn't too dissimilar to the above.






Here is a metal song that makes me feel similarly (nice imagery in the video as well). I don't know about you, but it's far more incredible to me than a tongue-in-cheek Anthrax song or something equally stereotypical. I don't want to crush beer cans on my head when I listen to either of these pieces.


----------



## andruini

Alright, fair enough.. I think I get what you mean..
I guess it just goes with what kind of person each one of us is, everyone feels differently.. That's cool..


----------



## Dedrater

To be diplomatic, I will note that I find most metal to be poorly composed, thoughtless, and noisy. It is difficult to tell for 'outsiders,' perhaps, but I think the first of the following examples is excellent, while the other is a mess. What does everyone else think? Are there clear differences, or are they the same thing?

Excellent:






Crap:






Excellent:






Crap:


----------



## Mirror Image

Dedrater said:


> You won't understand this for two reasons:
> 
> 1. You're coming at this as pompous, well-learned know-it-alls who enjoy music with _more_ finite musical qualities conducive to stirring content over music with _less_ of those qualities -- without regard for the fact that nothing finite has any direct bearing on the original evolutionary significance of music. You _should_ be coming at this not as musicians, but as philosophers.
> 
> 2. You are not genetically wired to enjoy conflict, struggle, power, or triumph. Experientially, we differ.




I think I can speak for everyone here who listens and is passionate about classical music and say that we all listen to classical because it's an emotional experience for all of us. It makes us feel good, it moves us, makes us laugh, makes us cry, makes us feel happiness, etc. A full range of emotions.

Metal, on the other hand, goes nowhere musically. It doesn't cover a wide-range of emotions. It's primary focus, in my opinion, seems to be about anger and rage, which are strong emotions no question about it, but they're not the only emotions. Metal is very one-dimensional, there's not much there, it's all distorted guitars and all played at faster than a speeding bullet tempos ad nauseam. Metal is just a childish slugfest and a feverish race-to-the-finish line, chaotic mess.

Why would you deprive yourself of such beauty as Brahms' Piano Concertos or de Falla's Nights in the Gardens of Spain?

Metal maybe okay for 15 year old teenagers with a bad attitude, but as we get older we mature, or at least I hope we do, and I can only think that our minds crave more. You certainly can't be at peace with anyone with that stuff blasting out of your speakers.

Life's about expanding one's knowledge of the world, not jumping in a mosh pit with 50 other people, while a band of 18 year olds play metal. Meanwhile, someone hits you and you get knocked down and leave this "musical experience" with a broken leg bone.


----------



## Dedrater

Mirror Image said:


> I think I can speak for everyone here who listens and is passionate about classical music and say that we all listen to classical because it's an emotional experience for all of us. It makes us feel good, it moves us, makes us laugh, makes us cry, makes us feel happiness, etc. A full range of emotions.
> 
> Metal, on the other hand, goes nowhere musically. It doesn't cover a wide-range of emotions. It's primary focus, in my opinion, seems to be about anger and rage, which are strong emotions no question about it, but they're not the only emotions. Metal is very one-dimensional, there's not much there, it's all distorted guitars and all played at faster than a speeding bullet speeds ad nauseam. Metal is just a childish slugfest and a feverish race-to-the-finish line, chaotic mess.
> 
> Why would you deprive yourself of such beauty as Brahms' Piano Concertos or de Falla's Nights in the Gardens of Spain?
> 
> Metal maybe okay for 15 year old teenagers with a bad attitude, but as we get older we mature, or at least I hope we do, and I can only think that our minds crave more. You certainly can't be at peace with anyone with that stuff blasting out of your speakers.
> 
> Life's about expanding one's knowledge of the world, not jumping in a mosh pit with 50 other people, while a band of 18 year olds play metal. Meanwhile, someone hits you and you get knocked down.
> 
> No, I'm sorry, but that's not music.


I often muse to myself about what statements of this kind would sound like to a member of some Germanic tribe living in northern Europe a few thousand years ago -- or, better yet, to anyone attending a fervent Liszt concert during that composer's lifetime. Are you aware of how many pistol duels, fist fights, tomato throwings, and loud shouts were par for the course? What about the rowdy speakeasys of Prohibition-era America, where jazz was the music of choice? Stereotypically stuffy, quiet concert halls are a modern phenomenon.

And sometimes, it's okay to meditate on a single mood or atmosphere for a while. It's ritualistic to do so.


----------



## Mirror Image

Dedrater said:


> I often muse to myself about what statements of this kind would sound like to a member of some Germanic tribe living in northern Europe a few thousand years ago -- or, better yet, to anyone attending a fervent Liszt concert during that composer's lifetime. Are you aware of how many pistol duels, fist fights, tomato throwings, and loud shouts were par for the course? What about the rowdy speakeasys of Prohibition-era America, where jazz was the music of choice? Stereotypically stuffy, quiet concert halls are a modern phenomenon.
> 
> And sometimes, it's okay to meditate on a single mood or atmosphere for a while. It's ritualistic to do so.


I expected this kind of response. I didn't expect you to defend metal and tell me it somehow is equal to classical or jazz.

When in doubt about anything, read my original messages. Here is what I said about metal, in case you didn't read it:

*"Metal goes nowhere musically. It doesn't cover a wide-range of emotions. It's primary focus, in my opinion, seems to be about anger and rage, which are strong emotions no question about it, but they're not the only emotions. Metal is very one-dimensional, there's not much there, it's all distorted guitars and all played at faster than a speeding bullet tempos ad nauseam. Metal is just a childish slugfest and a feverish race-to-the-finish line, chaotic mess."*

I really like what I said here, because it's true.


----------



## Conservationist

Mirror Image said:


> "Metal goes nowhere musically. It doesn't cover a wide-range of emotions. It's primary focus, in my opinion, seems to be about anger and rage, which are strong emotions no question about it, but they're not the only emotions. Metal is very one-dimensional, there's not much there, it's all distorted guitars and all played at faster than a speeding bullet tempos ad nauseam. Metal is just a childish slugfest and a feverish race-to-the-finish line, chaotic mess."


This guy clearly hasn't listened to any of the deserving acts!


----------



## Mirror Image

Conservationist said:


> This guy clearly hasn't listened to any of the deserving acts!


 So, you're telling me that you would deprive yourself of such aural beauty as Vaughan Williams' "The Lark Ascending" to go listen distorted guitars and screaming?


----------



## Conservationist

Mirror Image said:


> So, you're telling me that you would deprive yourself of such aural beauty as Vaughan Williams' "The Lark Ascending" to go listen distorted guitars and screaming?


Non sequitur.

If someone played a Bach cantata using distorted guitars and raspy vocals, would you not listen just because of the aesthetics?

Seems shallow in outlook to me.


----------



## Mirror Image

Conservationist said:


> Non sequitur.
> 
> If someone played a Bach cantata using distorted guitars and raspy vocals, would you not listen just because of the aesthetics?
> 
> Seems shallow in outlook to me.




A. This would never happen, because classical music isn't played with distorted guitars, B. If it actually DID happen, then there's no way I would listen to it.

I'm not a big fan of depriving myself of beauty, which apparently you seem to be against.


----------



## Rondo

Mirror Image said:


> A. This would never happen, because classical music isn't played with distorted guitars....


Conceivably, maybe not. But, classical music is _certainly_ no stranger to distortion.


----------



## Mirror Image

Rondo said:


> Conceivably, maybe not. But, classical music is _certainly_ no stranger to distortion.


Whatever you say there Rondo.


----------



## Dim7

There's quite a lot of metal that fits into Mirror Images description. It's usually really fun for a while, but gets tiring. This is my main problem with extreme metal. It's no fun listening through a whole album with just aggression and speed. It kinda loses its effect or something. However there are metal with contrasts and mood changes in one song, somewhat akin to classical, in the prog/power/symphonic genres mainly, not so much death, black, or thrash.


----------



## nickgray

Mirror Image said:


> classical music isn't played with distorted guitars


It can be done though. If you do have the knowledge of how to make a good distorted sound and to control it a "distorted" guitar can be a very, very expressive instruments, especially if utilising floyd rose and wah pedal. And I'm not talking about cranking the gain knob all the way to the right and playing 5ths. I'm talking about mild, but fat distortion, using a neck pickup, a wah pedal, lots of legatos, hammer-on/pull-offs, tapping, etc. If done properly - a really unique, beautiful colourful sounds may (and will) be achieved.


----------



## Conservationist

Mirror Image said:


> If it actually DID happen, then there's no way I would listen to it.
> 
> I'm not a big fan of depriving myself of beauty, which apparently you seem to be against.


No, on the contrary: I think underground metal is beautiful. It does however require a look beneath the surface.

Your description of metal fits stuff like Pantera, Slipknot, Opeth, Meshuggah and the like; these are basically rock bands that do not use evolving motives.

But it does not approximate what Burzum, Incantation, Demigod, Morbid Angel, Gorguts, Voivod, Obliveon, Atheist, Demilich, Emperor, Gorgoroth, Enslaved, and Slayer were doing.


----------



## handlebar

Conservationist said:


> This guy clearly hasn't listened to any of the deserving acts!


That's like saying one needs to take heroin in order to experience it and make an assessment.

If someone knows they don't like something, do they really have to "try it" ???

I used to listen to metal and cannot stand it these days. I have matured past that late 70's and early 80's music to something that requires a thought process far above the standard 6 chords. I don't belittle others for listening to it but merely wish some would not push pop culture and it's various trappings on me.

Just my own thoughts.

Jim


----------



## Conservationist

handlebar said:


> That's like saying one needs to take heroin in order to experience it and make an assessment.
> 
> If someone knows they don't like something, do they really have to "try it" ???
> 
> I used to listen to metal and cannot stand it these days. I have matured past that late 70's and early 80's music to something that requires a thought process far above the standard 6 chords. I don't belittle others for listening to it but merely wish some would not push pop culture and it's various trappings on me.


Yeah, me too -- I'd like pop culture like jazz to disappear!

However, your analogy is flawed: there is no risk to you in this proposal, and you are unfamiliar with the type of music being discussed.

Also, that's "its" trappings.

And further: I don't see anyone pushing it on you here. If you're still having a tantrum about an inability to stop using "new posts" to scan for activity, then it's about time to learn more about bulletin board software!


----------



## nickgray

Conservationist said:


> But it does not approximate what Burzum, Incantation, Demigod, Morbid Angel, Gorguts, Voivod, Obliveon, Atheist, Demilich, Emperor, Gorgoroth, Enslaved, and Slayer were doing.


Well, they aren't that different it terms of complexity. Gee, seriously, why do you care about people who don't like metal? You guys are arguing about pretty much the same stuff over the course of several months. I mean really, is it That important? Any type of metal is relatively uncomplicated when compared to classical. So what? You like it - you listen to it. You don't like - you don't listen to it. Simple as that.


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## Mirror Image

nickgray said:


> Well, they aren't that different it terms of complexity. Gee, seriously, why do you care about people who don't like metal? You guys are arguing about pretty much the same stuff over the course of several months. I mean really, is it That important? Any type of metal is relatively uncomplicated when compared to classical. So what? You like it - you listen to it. You don't like - you don't listen to it. Simple as that.


Yes, exactly. I have been saying this all along. I'm not sure why these metalheads are so hellbent on trying to make us understand metal. I don't want to understand it, I have no interest in understanding it, and from what I've heard, I don't like it.


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## handlebar

Conservationist said:


> Yeah, me too -- I'd like pop culture like jazz to disappear!
> 
> However, your analogy is flawed: there is no risk to you in this proposal, and you are unfamiliar with the type of music being discussed.
> 
> Also, that's "its" trappings.
> 
> And further: I don't see anyone pushing it on you here. If you're still having a tantrum about an inability to stop using "new posts" to scan for activity, then it's about time to learn more about bulletin board software!


The "pushing" was not directed at yourself or anyone on this forum but society's constant media blitz on television and radio.The bewildering amount of money spent trying to hypnotize today's youth into the latest rap or pop icon.

My analogy might be flawed to you. Maybe not to others. It is all in the interpretation.

And I know enough about the software to stop IF I so desire. i have the freedom to do what I want and read what I want. And post what I want.I'm a moderator on other sites with the same software and utilize it every day.My questions regarding a metal section were not directed at posts but at the need for a metal section forthwith.

I'm not going to debate finer points of metal music though. Back I go to the classical part of a classical forum.


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## handlebar

Mirror Image said:


> Yes, exactly. I have been saying this all along. I'm not sure why these metalheads are so hellbent on trying to make us understand metal. I don't want to understand it, I have no interest in understanding it, and from what I've heard, I don't like it.


Thanks you. Well said.

If i don't like it i won't listen to it yet also not tell others to refrain.


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## Conservationist

handlebar said:


> The "pushing" was not directed at yourself or anyone on this forum but society's constant media blitz on television and radio.The bewildering amount of money spent trying to hypnotize today's youth into the latest rap or pop icon.


Here we agree. I include rock, jazz and blues -- all fabrications based on European popular music, repackaged to be a distinctively "American" product -- in this category.


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## Conservationist

handlebar said:


> If i don't like it i won't listen to it yet also not tell others to refrain.


If members of this forum could have obeyed this dictum, we wouldn't be here now.

But instead, they were busy posturing to try to raise their social status.


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## Dedrater

Edit: Sorry, I pressed the wrong button. Ignore this thread.


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## LordBlackudder

This might work for Classic Heads.






The Black Mages produce lively symphonic rock music. It might be complex enough to entice some Classic Heads.


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## the_emptier

this is such a horrible thread, i can barely get through it. i am a huge fan of both sides and i agree with nothing that has been said.


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## tje1

The metal group Opeth is pretty interesting. Here is a live video of them performing a song titled "The Night and the Silent Water".






I hear a lot of influence from classic renaissance music, what do you think?


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## Dark Symphony

Winds, no doubt.


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## starthrower

What I like is the best and if you don't agree, you're all a bunch of poopy heads.


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## sliick

Bach said:


> Metal is the worst genre of pop music. Funk, hip-hop and reggae are the best.


thats a bit of a generalisation isn't it. there's good metal and bad metal.

in reply to the OP, lets look at Metallica. their early stuff (thrash metal no less) had some beautiful classically-influenced elements in places, Cliff Burton the bassist at the time was classically trained.

Metallica were influenced heavily by Diamond Head and Black Sabbath, who both also had classical-style interludes in some of their stuff


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## Void Eater

I am a massive metalhead myself-A fan of real metal of course, not whatever record labels are trying to pass of as metal knowdays. My favorite styles are 80's thrash and late 80's/early 90's old school death metal. Favorite bands would be Overkill, Megadeth, Malevolent Creation, Ragnarok, Darkthrone, Death, and countless others.


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## Ralfy

Has Queensryche been mentioned?


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## regressivetransphobe

Conservationist said:


> Yeah, me too -- I'd like pop culture like jazz to disappear!


Your opinion of jazz strikes me as eurocentric. Have you heard Jackie McLean? Wayne Shorter? Andrew Hill? Eric Dolphy? Titans of emotional power compared to Burzum, Slayer and Suffocation, though they also have their (relatively very brief) moments. Jazz and blues weren't a "repackaging" of European music anymore than anything in Germanic tradition was a "repackaging" of Bach; all artists bring their own perspectives to an idiom. :tiphat:

I used to think stuff like Filosofem was the best thing since sliced bread until I heard albums like Let My Children Hear Music. Since your problem with jazz seems to be lack of organization, maybe give Mingus another shot (or your first). The orchestration in his more "third stream", classical-pointed albums is amazing.

That said, I've been enjoying Asphyx and a good deal of German thrash metal lately.


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## Iforgotmypassword

Conservationist said:


> No, on the contrary: I think underground metal is beautiful. It does however require a look beneath the surface.
> 
> Your description of metal fits stuff like Pantera, Slipknot, Opeth, Meshuggah and the like; these are basically rock bands that do not use evolving motives.
> 
> But it does not approximate what Burzum, Incantation, Demigod, Morbid Angel, Gorguts, Voivod, Obliveon, Atheist, Demilich, Emperor, Gorgoroth, Enslaved, and Slayer were doing.


How dare you put opeth in a list along with pantera and slipknot, and mechuggah for that matter. In my opinion, Opeth musically surpasses every other band that you have listed. The bands in the second list are mostly made up of bands that like to play a lot of notes, not nessicarily compose works of music.


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## regressivetransphobe

> bands that like to play a lot of notes, not nessicarily compose works of music


Nah. (Early) Gorgoroth and Burzum were extremely minimal at times. I agree their purity of vision was powerful, moreso than any modern prog metal.

Opeth are definitely a notch higher than mallcore, despite anus.com's famous absolutism, but ehh. I'll take Demilich any day. I feel like in good metal, the point is the emotional relation between riffs. In not so good metal, gimmicks are the order of the day.


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## Iforgotmypassword

Sure, I'm not bashing shred metal, it has its place like you said. Gimicks have their place and I don't hate pantera or emperor... I just think that musically when referring to pure music, all genres aside, opeth stands above virtually all other bands listed there.


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## flippergv

Metal + Avant Guarde done right





Metal + fusion done right





Metal + Progressive done right





Just weird stuff
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=plKy6...eature=related


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## kv466

such closed mindedness...give this a whirl


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## flippergv

Mirror Image said:


> I expected this kind of response. I didn't expect you to defend metal and tell me it somehow is equal to classical or jazz.
> 
> When in doubt about anything, read my original messages. Here is what I said about metal, in case you didn't read it:
> 
> *"Metal goes nowhere musically. It doesn't cover a wide-range of emotions. It's primary focus, in my opinion, seems to be about anger and rage, which are strong emotions no question about it, but they're not the only emotions. Metal is very one-dimensional, there's not much there, it's all distorted guitars and all played at faster than a speeding bullet tempos ad nauseam. Metal is just a childish slugfest and a feverish race-to-the-finish line, chaotic mess."*
> 
> I really like what I said here, because it's true.


yes and no. Sure it is limited in most cases by what society defines as what is metal. But, there are bands that will show happiness, and other types of emotions not usually seen in metal.

example of happy metal with no overdrive/distortion:





Remember also that classical music has existed for many centuries while metal was born in the 70's. Give it time, and if it survives, it will evolve.


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## Guest

I hate death metal vocals (and lyrics), but I like some of the music. It's too bad that all such bands don't record instrumentally such as this one song by Decrepit Birth (it normally has vocals):


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## Glaliraha

I think if you're trying to convince classicalheads of metal's greatness, you show them Opeth. If they don't like it, then they're never going to like metal. And there's no point in all of it anyway. Everyone can listen to whatever they want.

And if you're getting curious about Opeth from their repeat mentions, then check out these songs, as they have the greatest potential for conversion:

*The Night And The Silent Water* (1996)




*
To Bid You Farewell* (1996)





*Patterns In The Ivy (Parts I and II)* (2001)





*Windowpane* (2003)





*Atonement* (2005)


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## regressivetransphobe

Then maybe they can graduate to real prog and real death metal.


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## Iforgotmypassword

Glaliraha said:


> I think if you're trying to convince classicalheads of metal's greatness, you show them Opeth. If they don't like it, then they're never going to like metal. And there's no point in all of it anyway. Everyone can listen to whatever they want.
> 
> And if you're getting curious about Opeth from their repeat mentions, then check out these songs, as they have the greatest potential for conversion:
> 
> *The Night And The Silent Water* (1996)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *
> To Bid You Farewell* (1996)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Patterns In The Ivy (Parts I and II)* (2001)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Windowpane* (2003)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Atonement* (2005)


Eh, get rid of the ones from blackwater park and ghost reveries and put these in

Under The Weeping Moon (1995): 




Credence (1998): 




When (1998):




Hessian Peel (2008):


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## Glaliraha

regressivetransphobe said:


> Then maybe they can graduate to real prog and real death metal.


What for? Each band is its own entity. Opeth is real Opeth. That's greater praise than "Dark Tranquility is real death metal".


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## Metalkitsune

I know many good metal composers like Nightwish(Tarja era),and such.


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## Iforgotmypassword

Glaliraha said:


> What for? Each band is its own entity. Opeth is real Opeth. That's greater praise than "Dark Tranquility is real death metal".


Yeah, I never really understood why a lot of people didn't find Opeth to be particularly impressive. I think they're genus as far as metal music of that style goes.


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## Guest

Fleshgod Apocalypse is interesting...nice use of Mozart's 40th!


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## DavidJones

Metalkitsune said:


> I know many good metal composers like Nightwish(Tarja era),and such.


Nightwish? It's gay music!


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## Metalkitsune

DavidJones said:


> Nightwish? It's gay music!


You're homophobic?


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## neoshredder

Gay means uncool to some people. I'm sure that is what DavidJones meant to say.


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## deggial

neoshredder said:


> Gay means uncool to some people.


and that's not homophobic to you?

re: metal vs. classical - people, don't forget that music should be fun (gay? heh), first and foremost. Exclusion of this or that genre is limiting, but, hey, whatever floats your boat.


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## neoshredder

deggial said:


> and that's not homophobic to you?
> 
> re: metal vs. classical - people, don't forget that music should be fun (gay? heh), first and foremost. Exclusion of this or that genre is limiting, but, hey, whatever floats your boat.


Not really. Though I guess it can be misinterpreted as being homophobic. It's just an easier way to say something is uncool.


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## oogabooha

neoshredder said:


> Not really. Though I guess it can be misinterpreted as being homophobic. It's just an easier way to say something is uncool.


oh dear.

but I think davyjones was just referring to the atmosphere of feminine operatic roles or whatever that makes it "gay"? whatever


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## Metalkitsune

deggial said:


> and that's not homophobic to you?
> 
> re: metal vs. classical - people, don't forget that music should be fun (gay? heh), first and foremost. Exclusion of this or that genre is limiting, but, hey, whatever floats your boat.


Yeah,especially in today's politically correct world


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## neoshredder

oogabooha said:


> oh dear.
> 
> but I think davyjones was just referring to the atmosphere of feminine operatic roles or whatever that makes it "gay"? whatever


I hear this a lot from grunge fans. But they will say that hair metal is gay. Does that mean they are homophobic? Nope. Not that I like the word used that way but it is quite a common usage for it.


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## Ralfy

Has anyone mentioned Queensyrche?

Sorry for any reposts:


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## Ralfy

How about White Zombie?


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## Ralfy

Primus?


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## Ralfy

Or maybe some Gwar?


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## OboeKnight

I enjoy "symphonic metal" quite a bit. Nightwish, Epica, Tarja..etc. Metal with a soprano singer is so absurd that it's intriguing haha.


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## Metalkitsune

Bach said:


> Metal is the worst genre of pop music. Funk, hip-hop and reggae are the best.


Metal i think is at least better than the Gangsta rap that so many cars and trucks keep blasting from their cars so loud it rattles the windows of my house.

Plus Gangsta rap is stupid,the lyrics are bad. Metal at least is better.


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## Guest

Black Sabbath
Under the Sun






Well I don't want no Jesus freak to tell me what it's all about
No black magician telling me to cast my soul out
Don't believe in violence, I don't even believe in peace
I've opened the door, now my mind's been released

Well I don't want no preacher telling me about the god in the sky
No I don't want no one to tell me where I'm gonna go when I die
I wanna live my life, I don't want people telling me what to do
I just believe in myself, 'cause no one else is true

Every day just comes and goes
Life is one long overdose
People try to rule the nation
I just see through their frustration

People hiding their real face
And each one's running their rat race
And behind each flower there grows a weed
In their world of make-believe

So believe what I tell you, it's the only way you'll find in the end
Just believe in yourself, you know you really shouldn't have to pretend
Don't let those empty people try and interfere with your mind
Just live your life and leave them all behind


----------

