# Romeo and Juliet and Music



## Avey (Mar 5, 2013)

To spare commentary on the written thing itself, I want to know:

*What composition do you prefer?*

Tchaikovsky's overture? Berlioz's dramatic symphony? Prokofiev's ballet? Gounod's or one of the other countless operas based on the poem? Maybe another less renown work re _R&J_?

The thing seems to bring out some deep passion in composers, especially compared to Bill's other masterworks. Curious where TC's preference lies.


----------



## Sloe (May 9, 2014)

I like Gounod´s opera a lot and I also like Riccardo Zandonai´s opera.


----------



## Harold in Columbia (Jan 10, 2016)

Objectively, Berlioz's "Love Scene" and "Mab" scherzo clearly demolish all the other contenders. Personally, I've always loved the drag king's serenade from Gounod's opera: 



 The sword fights that follow are a good time, too.


----------



## Cosmos (Jun 28, 2013)

Prokofiev's Ballet has been my favorite musical Romeo and Juliet for a long time. Though I admit I've never listened to the Berlioz symphony, maybe i'll check it out


----------



## Chronochromie (May 17, 2014)

Berlioz's Roméo et Juliette by far, but Prokofiev's ballet is pretty great.


----------



## Weston (Jul 11, 2008)

I can't profess to have heard all of these selections, but the Prokofiev ballet is probably my favorite as pure music. It is very Russian at times however isn't it? I'm not sure I would have gotten the subject matter from the music alone. 

Much as I find Tchaikovsky skirting close to maudlin, there is something fundamentally wonderful about his version of the love theme, now sadly a cliche. It does evoke those intense feelings very well.


----------



## schigolch (Jun 26, 2011)

_I Capuleti e i Montecchi_, though it's not coming from "Bill".


----------



## Figleaf (Jun 10, 2014)

^ The one where Romeo is a woman?  It might be a treat for lovers of the female voice and/or Sapphic subtexts, but I wouldn't want to go there myself! (I do keep meaning to seek out a recording of the tenor version though.)


----------



## Sloe (May 9, 2014)

Figleaf said:


> ^ The one where Romeo is a woman?  It might be a treat for lovers of the female voice and/or Sapphic subtexts, but I wouldn't want to go there myself! (I do keep meaning to seek out a recording of the tenor version though.)


If you mean I Capuleti e i Montecchi by Bellini Romeo is not a woman but only played by a woman. That is one of the great things with operas you can play something you are not.
Something that makes it interesting is the fact that it is not based on Shakespeare´s play but on Italian sources.


----------



## schigolch (Jun 26, 2011)

Yes, in the original version Romeo was a trouser role.


----------



## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Figleaf said:


> ^ The one where Romeo is a woman?  It might be a treat for lovers of the female voice and/or Sapphic subtexts, but I wouldn't want to go there myself! (I do keep meaning to seek out a recording of the tenor version though.)


Just to be clear, Romeo isn't a woman, but is played by a woman, just as Octavian and Cheribino are. Tenors have sung the role (an octave lower), but there is no tenor version as such. As far as I'm aware, Bellini never authorised a tenor version. In any case, it makes a nonsense of the duets, when the lower of the two lines is sung an octave down.


----------



## Guest (Apr 15, 2016)

Dusapin's opera is my favorite of the available settings.


----------



## schigolch (Jun 26, 2011)

nathanb said:


> Dusapin's opera is my favorite of the available settings.


Well, in this one we can't deny the importance of "Bill"...


----------



## Figleaf (Jun 10, 2014)

GregMitchell said:


> Just to be clear, Romeo isn't a woman, but is played by a woman, just as Octavian and Cheribino are. Tenors have sung the role (an octave lower), but there is no tenor version as such. As far as I'm aware, Bellini never authorised a tenor version. In any case, it makes a nonsense of the duets, when the lower of the two lines is sung an octave down.


Yes, you explained that before.  The fact that Romeo (or whichever trouser role) simultaneously is a woman (because that's who is onstage and singing) and simultaneously a man/youth/boy is just weird and confusing. Of course, for a lover of female voices who isn't bothered by gender ambiguities, it's all good- but personally I like to keep women singers to a minimum, and operatic cross dressing disturbs me for some reason, though in any other context it would be a non-issue. For these reasons, I'm not concerned about nonsense duets: better a travesty of Bellini than mezzo sopranos _en travesti_. 

Luckily we still have Gounod's Romeo et Juliette. (Which has the gender bending page Stephano, but at least s/he's not the heroine's love interest, nor a major singing role.)


----------



## Sloe (May 9, 2014)

Figleaf said:


> Yes, you explained that before.  The fact that Romeo (or whichever trouser role) simultaneously is a woman (because that's who is onstage and singing) and simultaneously a man/youth/boy is just weird and confusing. Of course, for a lover of female voices who isn't bothered by gender ambiguities, it's all good- but personally I like to keep women singers to a minimum, and operatic cross dressing disturbs me for some reason, though in any other context it would be a non-issue. For these reasons, I'm not concerned about nonsense duets: better a travesty of Bellini than mezzo sopranos _en travesti_.
> 
> Luckily we still have Gounod's Romeo et Juliette. (Which has the gender bending page Stephano, but at least s/he's not the heroine's love interest, nor a major singing role.)


I prefer to see Romeo as a very feminine man.
Trouser roles disturbs me by the way too. But I like to have female singers at a maximum.


----------



## Figleaf (Jun 10, 2014)

Sloe said:


> I prefer to see Romeo as a very feminine man.
> Trouser roles disturbs me by the way too. But I like to have female singers at a maximum.


I don't know whether Romeo as a feminine man is better or worse for me than Romeo as a woman, because I like my heroes macho! It's an interesting perspective though.


----------



## Figleaf (Jun 10, 2014)

Harold in Columbia said:


> Objectively, Berlioz's "Love Scene" and "Mab" scherzo clearly demolish all the other contenders. Personally, I've always loved the drag king's serenade from Gounod's opera:
> 
> 
> 
> The sword fights that follow are a good time, too.


I like the Berlioz too, although my attention wanders a little during the long orchestral parts. I have the Martinon recording downloaded from ina.fr, with the great Roger Soyer as Frère Laurent. There's a clip on youtube:


----------



## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Figleaf said:


> I like the Berlioz too, although my attention wanders a little during the long orchestral parts. I have the Martinon recording downloaded from ina.fr, with the great Roger Soyer as Frère Laurent. There's a clip on youtube:


I love the Berlioz _because of_ the long orchestral parts. Probably my favourite setting of Shakespeare's play, though I also enjoy the Prokoviev ballet, the Tchaikovsky overture, and, on a lesser level, Gounod's opera.


----------



## Figleaf (Jun 10, 2014)

GregMitchell said:


> I love the Berlioz _because of_ the long orchestral parts. Probably my favourite setting of Shakespeare's play, though I also enjoy the Prokoviev ballet, the Tchaikovsky overture, and, on a lesser level, Gounod's opera.


To hear the work at its best you need the 1912 recording of the Gounod opera, if you can tolerate the sound quality which is not brilliant. The Berlioz is one of only of very few orchestral works I've ever heard so I'm not really qualified to pronounce on that. Orchestral music tends to all sound the same to me. I bought it purely for Roger Soyer!


----------



## Harold in Columbia (Jan 10, 2016)

Figleaf said:


> ^ The one where Romeo is a woman?  It might be a treat for lovers of the female voice and/or Sapphic subtexts, but I wouldn't want to go there myself! (I do keep meaning to seek out a recording of the tenor version though.)


Well, in Shakespeare, Juliet is a boy, so consider it rebalancing.


----------



## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

I'd also vote for Prokofiev. I tried Gardiner's recording of Romeo and Juliet, and though I liked the orchestral parts, the choir parts were what put me off. Plus, he gives you two versions, so it's twice the choir parts that put me off.


----------



## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

Boris Lyatoshinsky provided some noteworthy music for a 1955 stage production but I don't think the score has ever been recorded in full - pity, as the symphonic suite that the composer made from has some fine moments.


----------



## QuietGuy (Mar 1, 2014)

I must confess that I prefer Bernstein's version of Romeo & Juliet (aka West Side Story). Also, I like Tchaikovsky's version, even if it is a cliche. I find I just can't get into anything else. Here is a film of Bernstein working with young musicians on Berlioz' version. I don't really care for the music, but I like watching Bernstein work with students.


----------



## Avey (Mar 5, 2013)

For my sake, the _duke's command_ and _Act III's introduction _answer my prompt. I fail to find a better example of programmatic music -- drama in sound!


----------



## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

Am I the only one who finds the complete score for Prokofiev's R&J to be somewhat repetitive and, at points, a bit uninspired? Now I do think that there is much great music in it and do generally enjoy it. I have seen the ballet on a number of occasions, but every time, there are numerous spots where I find myself thinking 'get on with it!'. I am of the opinion that the score can be reduced by about a quarter to third and it will lose almost nothing and gain much in cohesion. I recently saw a reviewer of a Litton/Bergen recording who suggested that a good case could be made for taking all 20 numbers from the 3 suites and arranging them in the order from the complete work.

As to the other R&J works, I have a particular fondness for the Berlioz both for the inventiveness of the score and the fact that it reminds me of one magical warm August evening spent in the music shed at Tanglewood with the Boston Symphony performing the work.

QuietGuy mentioned including _West Side Story_, in which case how about Frederick Delius' _A Village Romeo and Juliet_?


----------



## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Gounod opera and Berlioz ( The Muti version please)


----------



## Guest (Apr 16, 2016)

Why so little love the Tchaikovsky? I can only guess that our snobbish TC members don't like to align with something that is "popular" and overplayed. But Tchaikovsky's R&J Overture is the most well known of the bunch for good reason. He concisely sums up all the drama of the play in 20 minutes, with highly memorable and emotionally charged melodies. For me it's Tchaikovsky by a mile!


----------



## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

_How on earth can I forget this one!
_


----------



## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Becca said:


> QuietGuy mentioned including _West Side Story_, in which case how about Frederick Delius' _A Village Romeo and Juliet_?


Well, though _West Side Story_ is a modern re-telling of the Shakespeare play, _A Village Romeo and Juliet_ is arguably even further removed from Shakespeare, being based on a novella by Friedrich Durrenmatt. Not that I mind including both works, as I love them both.

I'd also agree with Jerome's championing of Tchaikovsky's Overture, which is surely a victim of its own popularity, and one of the greatest distillations of Shakespeare you will hear.


----------



## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Pugg said:


> _How on earth can I forget this one!
> _


Well, as has already been noted, it's not based on Shakespeare, though possibly on the same original source.

I love this recording too. I suppose Baker, who is a magnificent Romeo, might seem an unexpected choice until you remember her superb Mary Stuart (in English). Interestingly her US debut was also in a bel canto role (Smeton the page, in a concert performance of *Anna Bolena* at Carnegie Hall).


----------



## Triplets (Sep 4, 2014)

Harold in Columbia said:


> Objectively, Berlioz's "Love Scene" and "Mab" scherzo clearly demolish all the other contenders. Personally, I've always loved the drag king's serenade from Gounod's opera:
> 
> 
> 
> The sword fights that follow are a good time, too.


"Objectively"? Is there anything in Art appreciation that is objective?
The Prok ballet is hard to beat; it's the Composers Masterpiece, imo.


----------



## QuietGuy (Mar 1, 2014)

Becca said:


> ... QuietGuy mentioned including _West Side Story_, in which case how about Frederick Delius' _A Village Romeo and Juliet_?


A Village Romeo and Juliet (film): 



Vocal Score: http://imslp.org/wiki/A_Village_Romeo_and_Juliet_(Delius,_Frederick)


----------



## senza sordino (Oct 20, 2013)

I have never listened to the Berlioz, and never sought to listen. I saw a performance of the Gounod. I have played in orchestra A Walk to the Paradise Garden from a Village Romeo and Juliet, it's wonderful and so dreamy. I've heard the Tchaikovsky multiple times. But I definitely can say I prefer unequivocally I prefer the Prokofiev, so full of drama, dreams and emotion. Love it, it's a desert island disk.


----------



## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

senza sordino said:


> I have never listened to the Berlioz, and never sought to listen.


Why on earth not? I love Berlioz's music, and not just because he was arguably the most original voice of the early nineteenth century. He's probably my favourite composer (though Verdi is up there too). Mind you his music needs careful attention. It's not easy to pull off. Sir Colin Davis spent a lifetime championing his music and he's a valuable guide. You can't really go wrong with any of his recordings of any of Berlioz's music.


----------



## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Prokofiev is my favorite, but I love Berlioz (at least the orchestral parts) and Tchaikovsky too. I'm lukewarm on Gounod's opera.


----------



## senza sordino (Oct 20, 2013)

GregMitchell said:


> Why on earth not? I love Berlioz's music, and not just because he was arguably the most original voice of the early nineteenth century. He's probably my favourite composer (though Verdi is up there too). Mind you his music needs careful attention. It's not easy to pull off. Sir Colin Davis spent a lifetime championing his music and he's a valuable guide. You can't really go wrong with any of his recordings of any of Berlioz's music.


I've no good excuse for not seeking out the Berlioz except that I'm partial to orchestral music, and not so keen on singing. We all have our likes and dislikes


----------



## Harold in Columbia (Jan 10, 2016)

senza sordino said:


> I've no good excuse for not seeking out the Berlioz except that I'm partial to orchestral music, and not so keen on singing.


Well, the best parts are purely orchestral, so you're all set.


----------



## Weston (Jul 11, 2008)

I suppose someone should mention Nino Rota's semi-pop / faux renaissance score to the Zeffirelli version (if we haven't already). Also a cliche perhaps, but at the time it made a huge impact on just about everyone. I was madly infatuated with Olivia Hussey and the music has that tragic beauty so hard to capture without getting corny.


----------



## thomash85715 (Apr 26, 2016)

Tonight I am playing a columbia early stereo LP of Bernstein doing Tchaikovsky's. My reference interpretation of this work is Von Karajan Berlin on DGG from mid-1960s; likely around same time as the Bernstein NYP. On the car radio the other night we heard someone doing it who was not identified by the announcer. It was ploddingly slow in most parts but frenetically fast in others. My friend had Sound Hound on his phone but it could only suggest it was the NYP. It was not the Bernstein I have. Maybe someone on the forum knows them all? I also wonder who has a favorite recording and reading of this masterpiece? Thank you.


----------



## MarkW (Feb 16, 2015)

Becca said:


> Am I the only one who finds the complete score for Prokofiev's R&J to be somewhat repetitive and, at points, a bit uninspired? Now I do think that there is much great music in it and do generally enjoy it. I have seen the ballet on a number of occasions, but every time, there are numerous spots where I find myself thinking 'get on with it!'. I am of the opinion that the score can be reduced by about a quarter to third and it will lose almost nothing and gain much in cohesion. I recently saw a reviewer of a Litton/Bergen recording who suggested that a good case could be made for taking all 20 numbers from the 3 suites and arranging them in the order from the complete work.
> 
> As to the other R&J works, I have a particular fondness for the Berlioz both for the inventiveness of the score and the fact that it reminds me of one magical warm August evening spent in the music shed at Tanglewood with the Boston Symphony performing the work.[/I]?


The complete Prokofiev does have a lot of filler -- and his own suites are too short and not chronological. But several conductors have arranged longer programs of excerpts that include a lot of the best music and little of the worst. There's a Leinsdorf/BSO recording, still available on some British CD label, that is ideal in this regard.


----------



## Headphone Hermit (Jan 8, 2014)

Berlioz - by a long chalk

For those who have never heard it, there is plenty to enjoy in here. There are some excellent orchestral parts, there are some wonderful singing parts, there is real emotion, fun, wit, joy and pathos .... and yes, it is an 'odd bag' of a work - is it a symphony or not? Well, who cares? Its just wonderful.

And yes, I love Prokofiev too. 

And yes, I love Gounod too (especially with Victoria de los Angeles singing)

I even like the Tchaikovsky as well.


----------



## Jordan Workman (May 9, 2016)

Romeo and Juliet by Prokofiev.


----------



## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)




----------



## SONNET CLV (May 31, 2014)

From my disc collection:

















Fans of Raff's symphony "Im Wald" (one of my favorite lesser known symphonies, and my favorite Raff symphony) might enjoy the _R&J_ Overture.

There's this, too, maybe even lesser known to the general public:

















Again, if you follow Lyatoshinsky's symphonies, you might enjoy this Suite. Here are the movements:

Suite From Music For "Romeo And Juliet", Op. 56	
1 Carnival March	2:23
2 Pavane	3:30
3 Juliet's Garden	5:06
4 Duel Of Romeo And Tybald	2:05
5 Juliet Carried To The Crypt	3:03
6 In The Capulets' Crypt - Apotheosis	7:27


----------



## SONNET CLV (May 31, 2014)

The American composer David Diamond offers his take on the romantic couple:

















Music For Shakespeare's "Romeo And Juliet"	(23:28)
1 Overture (Allegro Maestoso)	3:10
2 Balcony Scene (Andante Semplice) (Duet for Viola and Violin) 5:04
3 Romeo And Friar Laurence (Andante)	3:39
4 Juliet And Her Nurse (Allegretto Scherzando)	2:12
5 The Death Of Romeo And Juliet (Adagio Sospirando)	9:15

Among the guitar discs in my collection is this:









Hans Werner Henze-	Royal Winter Music • First Sonata On Shakespearean Characters	
1	-	Gloucester	6:22
2	-	Romeo And Juliet	3:07
3	-	Ariel	5:57
4	-	Ophelia	3:02
5	-	Touchstone, Audrey And William	3:36
6	-	Oberon	7:47

Of course, Romeo and Juliet have a better chance of coming back to life and living happily ever after than I do of getting my fingers around the fretboard for these works. Still, well worth hearing.

There is a second Henze Sonata of Shakespeare characters, too:

Hans Werner Henze-	Royal Winter Music • Second Sonata On Shakespearean Characters	
1	-	Sir Andrew Aguecheek	6:03
2	-	Bottom's Dream	5:14
3	-	Mad Lady Macbeth	9:24


----------



## FrankinUsa (Aug 3, 2021)

I admit I like the Tchaikovsky. It’s relative short and Uber-romantic and it’s fun. I like to listen to it once in a while. I actually can listen to Tchaikovsky’s entire ballets in one sitting. I also like the Prokofiev and can listen to large chunks of it at a time. I believe that I’ve listened to it in one sitting although that’s rare. I will throw in my favorite recording is Lorin Maazel/Cleveland Orchestra. I have plenty Tchaikovsky’s.


----------



## SONNET CLV (May 31, 2014)

Kabalevsky fans should enjoy this one:

















Musical Sketches To "Romeo And Juliet" Op. 55 (34:57)
1 Introduction. Enmity And Love. Morning In Verona.	6:02
2 Preparations For The Ball	1:40
3 Guests' Procession	3:21
4 Merry Dance	1:33
5 Lyrical Dance. Meeting Of Romeo And Juliet	4:52
6 In Lorenzo's Cell	3:23
7 Scene At The Square	3:20
8 Romeo And Juliet	2:45
9 Finale - Death And Reconciliation	7:45

It just goes to show what being a literature instructor has led me to. _R&J_, though an early Shakespeare play, remains one of my top favorites of the Bard's works (along with _Macbeth_). If there's any debate for Romeo being played by a woman in trousers, I prefer not to get involved. However, a close reading of the play suggests that Benvolio is a "gay" character who opens with a major crush on Romeo. Note the hints in this early passage when Tybalt meets Benvolio on the street:

*TYBALT*
What, art thou drawn among these heartless hinds?
Turn thee, Benvolio, look upon thy death.
*BENVOLIO*
I do but keep the peace: put up thy sword,
Or manage it to part these men with me.
*TYBALT*
What, drawn, and talk of peace! I hate the word,
As I hate hell, all Montagues, and thee:
Have at thee, coward!

"Heartless hinds" sounds incredibly like "hartless hinds" where the "hart" is a buck deer and the "hind" is a female. Shakespeare has to be _listened to _rather than read.
Too, the term "part these men with me" is incredibly suggestive in context. And then Tybalt adds that "and thee" to his list of hates, even though Benvolio is clearly included as a Montague. Is that "and thee" a homophobic reference?

And this passage, with a great Benvolio confession, proves intriguing:

*LADY MONTAGUE*
O, where is Romeo? saw you him to-day?
Right glad I am he was not at this fray.
*BENVOLIO*
Madam, an hour before the worshipp'd sun
Peer'd forth the golden window of the east,
A troubled mind drave me to walk abroad;
Where, underneath the grove of sycamore
That westward rooteth from the city's side,
So early walking did I see your son:
Towards him I made, but he was ware of me
And stole into the covert of the wood:
I, measuring his affections by my own,
That most are busied when they're most alone,
Pursued my humour not pursuing his,
And gladly shunn'd who gladly fled from me.
*MONTAGUE*
Many a morning hath he there been seen,
With tears augmenting the fresh morning dew.

Here Ben exhibits signs of a "stalker". Of course, what troubles his mind is his affection for his cousin, Romeo, whom he haunts. Ben has such respect for the boy whose affections (for the woman Rosalind, he suspects) he measures by his own affections, his deep love, that he can "shun" him -- that is, leave him alone in peace. Benvolio exhibits great sacrificial love in the play. He basically disappears after the Romeo and Juliet connection takes hold. He pursues his own humour, which is a sad one. Note the root of the name Benvolio -- from the Italian verb "to have affection for".

Shakespeare's _Romeo & Juliet_ takes a look at a lot of aspects of love, most of which are dark and upsetting. So there is great reason to explore its many emotions in many works of music.


----------

