# Has Classical music come to the end of its usefulness to society.



## John Lenin (Feb 4, 2021)

Is it fighting a battle it can no longer win in the west. Is it really a surprise that it only appeals to societies with a 'growing middle class' such as China and the far East. And that with a stagnating middle class and a general lowering of their status in the west, the only thing on the rise is sport. Can 'classical music' (serious art music) only ever exist when you are lifting an ever increasing middle class away from a subservient working class.... Regardless of the direction the music takes itself...?


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## Coach G (Apr 22, 2020)

It can be argued that classical music is LESS elitist than it has ever been. My understanding is that classical music was more-or-less the realm of the church, the royals and nobility. The peasants probably had no idea about who Mozart or Beethoven were, even in their own countries. You had to have money and time to go to a concert, or at least have a piano at home and someone who was able to take lessons and play some classical music on it.


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## larold (Jul 20, 2017)

I'm not sure the phrase " usefulness to society" describes the condition of classical music in USA and some of Europe. 

I think the lack of new composers, forms and compositions that traditionally created new fans has enabled other musical forms to surpass it in both popularity and relevance. This would include many forms of popular music, musical theater and film music, all of which continue to thrive, create hits and new fans.

Right now the musical and entertainment worlds are collaborating on 40 years of hip-hop, also known as rap, music and are celebrating this in popular culture and media. This may seem anathema to people that don't know it but there are two easy connections between rap and classical:

-- Story telling as in lied.
-- A repetitive beat as in minimalism.

In addition the Boston Symphony recently announced an alliance between itself and a rap artist. I'm sure there are or will be others that do so as well under the idea that a rising tide of popularity lifts all boats -- even our dying classical music.

The last time I can remember a cultural awakening like this in classical music was about the time period performance recordings of Beethoven symphonies started to catch on en masse during the 1990s.

I think what's happened to classical music is most of the music composed in the last century and virtually all of it since 1970 has rendered the art from even more elitist than it already was and has made it irrelevant to the casual listener -- the person that supports university, local and international concerts, radio, et al. 

From 12 tone to electronic, microtones, micropolyphony, post-everything, new sound worlds and minimalism, the traditions of classical music have been abandoned. In turn many fans and parts of our culture have abandoned it.

There is still enough being done for musicians, university types, collectors and recording junkies to stay involved but I don't think that holds true for the casual listener who likes/liked classical music and may have known the music of Bach, Mozart, Beethoven or Brahms. Most of the music composed in the last century has left them in the dust.


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## John Lenin (Feb 4, 2021)

The church no longer pulls in the masses. Once classical music and Opera were the TV, the cinema, important for the church, a night out.... other than a 'cultural symbol of an emerging middle class', a non monetry symbol of seperatism from the great unwashed masses... it has no mass selling point. Abandoned by a no longer important church, sidelined by TV, over ridden by simple film music, the middle classes view muddy wellies and a tent in Glastonbury as more representative of their cultural aims in the west.


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## MarkW (Feb 16, 2015)

No '


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

I don't associate music as being useful or relevant, whatever those terms might mean. Anyways, I'm confident that classical music will be here long after I'm gone (and everyone else on TC).


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

Bulldog said:


> I don't associate music as being useful or relevant, whatever those terms might mean. Anyways, I'm confident that classical music will be here long after I'm gone (and everyone else on TC).


For as long as I've participated in Internet forums on classical music, there has been a thread like this. I'm sure articles appeared long before the Internet with this idea being proffered. But from what I can tell, classical music's appeal, which I think is about 5% of the global music market has remained constant since this metric has been measured.


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## DaveM (Jun 29, 2015)

I can’t really take the OP seriously. Usefulness of classical music has come to an end? What does that even mean?


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## SONNET CLV (May 31, 2014)

*Has Classical music come to the end of its usefulness to society.*

Perhaps the topic should read: Has society come to the end of its usefulness to Classical music?

That may be easier to answer. And a more serious and far sadder issue.


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## ArtMusic (Jan 5, 2013)

No, classical music is more accessible today than ever. For example I can simply go to Youtube and listen to new recordings and watch it live. No other time has there been more music being more accessible.


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## DaveM (Jun 29, 2015)

FWIW, there is another thread on Bruckner’s 6th Symphony, not exactly one of the most popular of his symphonies. And Bruckner is not necessarily (arguably) one of the more popular of CM composers. But when I went to Presto Music to purchase a performance of the 6th, I was amazed to see how many recordings of it there are. One conductor has 3 recordings of the 6th since 2010.


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## ORigel (May 7, 2020)

DaveM said:


> I can't really take the OP seriously. Usefulness of classical music has come to an end? What does that even mean?


Villian: "You've outlived your usefulness." [Shoots minion]


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## ORigel (May 7, 2020)

DaveM said:


> FWIW, there is another thread on Bruckner's 6th Symphony, not exactly one of the most popular of his symphonies. And Bruckner is not necessarily (arguably) one of the more popular of CM composers. But when I went to Presto Music to purchase a performance of the 6th, I was amazed to see how many recordings of it there are. One conductor has 3 recordings of the 6th since 2010.


I like the sixth more than the fourth, tbh.


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## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

Has Classical music come to the end of its usefulness to society? In a word, yes.

It will hang on for a small part of the population, for those who enjoy playing it and writing it. But for society at large, yes, it's run its course. The signs have been around us for a long time. It's not going to suddenly vanish but it's influence will diminish. There are a lot of reasons and many threads here that have argued the case.

But those of us who love it have to understand something: the classical music art form is the only one that thrives of music of the past. We venerate the old masters to the detriment and severe neglect of the new. Take any other art form: sculpture, visual arts, the movies, theatre....they don't regurgitate the same 200 year old works over and over. Say what you want about modern art, it's at least thriving. Its creators seem to lack taste, talent, skill and seriousness - but they're not painting like the renaissance masters. Hollywood had a Golden Age yet no modern movie producer wants to go back and make them like they did in the '40s.

Serious, classical, music has lost audience appeal because it has ceased to be relevant or meaningful. Add to it shortening attention spans, the ubiquity of recordings and fierce competition from other entertainments and music is taking a back seat. It's just the way it goes. There are no solutions other than to take up the Monastic Option - Morris Berman's suggestion on how to preserve culture that is worth saving.


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## Haydn70 (Jan 8, 2017)

mbhaub said:


> Has Classical music come to the end of its usefulness to society? In a word, yes.
> 
> *It will hang on for a small part of the population, for those who enjoy playing it and writing it. But for society at large*, yes, it's run its course. The signs have been around us for a long time. It's not going to suddenly vanish but it's influence will diminish. There are a lot of reasons and many threads here that have argued the case.


It has always been for a VERY SMALL part of the population...never been of any real interest to society at large. This is how it has always been, is now, and always will be.

And it was never relevant, at least not in the trendy definition of the word. And that is all to the good.

Here is Roger Scruton on irrelevance:

https://www.futuresymphony.org/the-virtue-of-irrelevance/


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## John Lenin (Feb 4, 2021)

And it was never relevant, at least not in the trendy definition of the word. And that is all to the good.


Nonsense, it once held a religious significance. It was once entertainment for the middle/upper classes in it's various forms. You don't have 200 years of opera because nobody was really interested.


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## Haydn70 (Jan 8, 2017)

John Lenin said:


> And it was never relevant, at least not in the trendy definition of the word. And that is all to the good.
> 
> Nonsense, it once held a religious significance. It was once entertainment for the middle/upper classes in it's various forms. You don't have 200 years of opera because nobody was really interested.


Where did I write that nobody was interested? Hmmm, I didn't!


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## John Lenin (Feb 4, 2021)

Haydn70 said:


> Where did I write that nobody was interested? Hmmm, I didn't!


They were interested because it was relevant entertainment.... They weren't interested in it's irrelevance


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## consuono (Mar 27, 2020)

From what I can tell, it isn't classical or "serious" music that's dying. It's pop.


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## John Lenin (Feb 4, 2021)

Pop.... Or 'unified international folk music' isn't dying. It's booming... It is just changing its commercial structure.


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## GucciManeIsTheNewWebern (Jul 29, 2020)

consuono said:


> From what I can tell, it isn't classical or "serious" music that's dying. It's pop.


Orchestras and opera houses are financially struggling, but yeah I think culturally classical music is always going to be a mainstay while pop trends outgrow themselves.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

Equating art with utility must surely come to an end.


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## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

Hot off the press: a local family has for 50 years promoted local arts groups and lately has been giving away $100,000 per year. One orchestra I play with has been the beneficiary of their generosity for the last 22 years. Just this morning came the announcements of their donations this year: this orchestra will not receive a contribution at this time. Nor will a local ballet company, a youth orchestra, a youth choir and several other groups that have been recipients for a long time. They state it clearly: funding priorities will now be given to groups that are racially underrepresented, organizations that promote minority cultures...in other words, Woke groups. Organizations like mine that promote elitist, western culture are being tossed aside. What a world.


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## Coach G (Apr 22, 2020)

Well, there's classical music and then there's the classical music _industry_. The industry is floundering, especially with how COVID-19 devastated concert life. But even before COVID with the abundance of quality classical recordings going back at least to the 1950s and Youtube, orchestras and opera houses had been closing down.

I think we might see a day when classical music goes 100% digital, and it could be that 100 from years now Bernstein and Karajan are still topping the everybody's charts. I mean, how many recordings of Beethoven's 5th does the world really need?

So like every other form of technology it's always a double-edged sword: the some technology that made classical music accessible to the masses, is the same technology that destroys concert life.

It's analogous to how Henry Ford and mass production of the the car changed the world: on the plus side you've got increased mobility, increased work and commerce, leisure, and travel opportunities, jobs created in auto sales, auto manufacturing, auto maintenance and repair, auto finance and insurance, motels, hotels, gas stations, fast food restaurants, mini-golf, NASCAR racing, etc. On the down side, you've got car accidents, car payments, obesity from not walking anywhere, oil dependence, pollution, global warming, etc.


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## Jacck (Dec 24, 2017)

mbhaub said:


> Hot off the press: a local family has for 50 years promoted local arts groups and lately has been giving away $100,000 per year. One orchestra I play with has been the beneficiary of their generosity for the last 22 years. Just this morning came the announcements of their donations this year: this orchestra will not receive a contribution at this time. Nor will a local ballet company, a youth orchestra, a youth choir and several other groups that have been recipients for a long time. They state it clearly: funding priorities will now be given to groups that are racially underrepresented, organizations that promote minority cultures...in other words, Woke groups. Organizations like mine that promote elitist, western culture are being tossed aside. What a world.


if the Republicans were not so fanatically anti-state, the orchestras could have been supported by tax money (in addition to money they earn from concerting), as they are in my country. They would not need to be reliant on the good will of some benefactors


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## Fabulin (Jun 10, 2019)

Jacck said:


> if the Republicans were not so fanatically anti-state, the orchestras could have been supported by tax money (in addition to money they earn from concerting), as they are in my country. They would not need to be reliant on the good will of some benefactors


Orchestras in the U.S, are not state-funded?


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## Jacck (Dec 24, 2017)

Fabulin said:


> Orchestras in the U.S, are not state-funded?


how should I know?


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## John Lenin (Feb 4, 2021)

The only thing 'state funded' in the US is Foreign Wars.


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## DaveM (Jun 29, 2015)

John Lenin said:


> The only thing 'state funded' in the US is Foreign Wars.


That's a ridiculous comment. Best to stick to your own OP.


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## consuono (Mar 27, 2020)

John Lenin said:


> Pop.... Or 'unified international folk music' isn't dying. It's booming... It is just changing its commercial structure.


You could say the same about classical then. In terms of numbers of brilliant young performers, this is a Golden Age.


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## OMD (Feb 6, 2021)

Classical music *did* have cultural relevance within many of our lifetimes... I remember Rostropovich conducting on the cover of Time magazine (before my time, but not for half of a typical audience at a symphony performance)... Leonard Bernstein's Mass - and Leonard Bernstein in general... Copland's Depression-era populism... Shostakovich's Leningrad Symphony and HIS Time cover... even the Three Tenors, as much as I'd like to forget the '90s...

I wholeheartedly agree with mbhaub on page one. Classical music, in the U.S. if not elsewhere, is strangling itself by ignoring young (for our purposes, under 45...) - or just LIVING - composers who would, I feel pretty confident, spark some interest in "younger" listeners (like people in their thirties and forties). Not least because they could show up at the concert and talk with media ahead of time. Every time I read someone going on about how "all music since [fill in a post-war year] is deliberately unpleasant and lacking in anything that might attract a person fond of melody, I shake my head. Thomas Ades, Anna Clyne, Caroline Shaw, Roxanna Panufnik, Dobrinka Tabakova, Nico Muhly and Missy Mazzoli - among many others - all compose intricate, substantial music that people love upon first hearing. I know because listeners call my radio show wen I play them! They say, "What was that? I never heard anything like that!!" The question, then, is WHY NOT? I have no idea what orchestras and radio stations are thinking. Gorecki's 3rd symphony had a Dark Side of the Moon run on the Billboard charts in the early '90s, so... maybe put it on the calendar every three or four years?! Arvo Part and Philip Glass have enormous popularity with art music fans and I bet you could count on two hands the number of times one of their pieces got a headlining slot on a U.S. symphony program in any given recent year. What about taking advantage of Taylor Swift endorsing John Luther Adams? And what about John Adams? James MacMillan? There's dead guys who draw who aren't played enough. Ives? Copland? Debussy? I could go on and on and on. It's irksome, to put it mildly. But in the context of the death spiral of everything involving thought... maybe I'm overreacting. Maybe we should just be grateful that good music exists at all at this point...


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