# the Tallis Scholars and their competitors



## science (Oct 14, 2010)

So I think I'll go on a Tallis Scholars binge in a few months, and I'm doing my homework now. 

My questions to you are: 

1) What are your favorite recordings by the Tallis Scholars? 

2) Are there any recordings you prefer or recommend either more highly or in addition to the one by the Tallis Scholars?


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## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

I've been happy with just about everything by the Tallis Scholars. Though they're not always historically accurate and take some liberties (like transposing the music so women can sing it), they're still beautiful to listen to. They're best in English Tudor music like Tallis and Taverner and also do very well with Palestrina, although I like the energy in McCreesh's interpretation of Palestrina in his Christmas Mass in Rome CD.

I'm a little rusty as far as comparisons with other groups, so I'll leave that to others. But offhand, I think the Orlando Consort has them beat in interpreting Ockegehem.


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## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

Two other recordings which stand out, Obrecht's Missa Maria Zart (it's like listening to a Renaissance version of Bruckner) and Victoria's Requiem.


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## Guest (Apr 2, 2012)

Get the Tallis Scholars' Spem in alium album and their recording of Miserere.


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## humanbean (Mar 5, 2011)

1.) The Palestrina 400 collection. Contains several relatively unknown (or little-recorded), but excellent, masses by Palestrina

2.) The Sixteen, Clerks' Group, The Cardinall's Musick, Binchois Consort, Ensemble Project Ars Nova, Ensemble Gilles Binchois, Orlando Consort - just to name a few


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## Sator (Jan 23, 2011)

My favourite is easily their recording of music by Heinrich Isaac. It is a desert island recording for me. BTW I came to it via Webern, who did his PhD on Isaac.

I would also like to second the Obrecht recording. Obrecht probably pioneered the development of imitative counterpoint and Josquin probably copied him. There could never have been an _Art of Fugue_ without Obrecht. He is a hugely neglected composer.


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## science (Oct 14, 2010)

humanbean said:


> 1.) The Palestrina 400 collection. Contains several relatively unknown (or little-recorded), but excellent, masses by Palestrina
> 
> 2.) The Sixteen, Clerks' Group, The Cardinall's Musick, Binchois Consort, Ensemble Project Ars Nova, Ensemble Gilles Binchois, Orlando Consort - just to name a few


The Palestrina stuff does look interesting, thanks for letting me know.

On #2, can you be more specific for me? Are there particular recordings by the Sixteen, Clerks' Group, etc. that you recommend more enthusiastically than others?


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## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

Sator said:


> My favourite is easily their recording of music by Heinrich Isaac. It is a desert island recording for me. BTW I came to it via Webern, who did his PhD on Isaac.
> 
> Obrecht probably pioneered the development of imitative counterpoint and Josquin probably copied him. There could never have been an _Art of Fugue_ without Obrecht. He is a hugely neglected composer.


Hey, I got into Isaac because of Webern also! :tiphat: I wish he were better represented in recordings. And I totally agree with your assessment of Obrecht. Though Josquin and Obrecht are listed as contemporaries in music history books, most people don't realize that Josquin's greatest works didn't happen until after Obrecht was dead.


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## Guest (Apr 4, 2012)

I have not been disappointed by anything from the Tallis Scholars, and I have quite a few recordings from them. I just picked up their recording of Victoria's Lamentations of Jeremiah, and their 2-disc collection of requiems written by Iberian composers (including the justly praised Requiem of Victoria).

That said, the Sixteen are also a wonderful group, and I have their recording of Handel's Messiah, and it is one of my go-to recordings.

I know that the Tallis Scholars are frequently criticized for taking liberties with the music, but I am not enough of a musical scholar to know what they have tweeked. It all sounds heavenly to me. And when I really want to hear something heavenly/magical, I put on the headphones and listen to them singing Tallis' Spem in alium.


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## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

DrMike said:


> I know that the Tallis Scholars are frequently criticized for taking liberties with the music, but I am not enough of a musical scholar to know what they have tweeked. It all sounds heavenly to me.


And if I were you, I wouldn't seek out their critics. It's like putting John Eliot Gardiner's Beethoven cycle next to Karajan's. Sure, according to scholars, Gardiner's is more "authentic," but there's enough art to be had in Karajan and others to silence their voices.


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## Guest (Apr 4, 2012)

Agreed. I like both Karajan and Gardiner. Normally I appreciate "authentic" performances, but at the end of the day, the beauty of the music wins out. Whoever can best deliver that wins my hard-earned dollars.


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## humanbean (Mar 5, 2011)

science said:


> The Palestrina stuff does look interesting, thanks for letting me know.
> 
> On #2, can you be more specific for me? Are there particular recordings by the Sixteen, Clerks' Group, etc. that you recommend more enthusiastically than others?


*The Sixteen* - Allegri: Miserere / Tallis: Spem In Alium
*Clerks' Group* - The Ockeghem Collection, Sacred Music from Bologna, Obrecht: Missa Sub Tuum Praesidium / Benedictus in laude / Salve Regina
*Binchois Consort* - Music for St James the Greater
*The Cardinall's Musick* - Byrd Edition (esp. volume 4), Victoria: Missa Gaudeamus / Missa Pro Victoria / Motets
*Orlando Consort* - Machaut: Chansons a.k.a Dreams in the Pleasure Garden (some people complain that this isn't authentic enough, because they only read one line of text out of 3 or 4, and the rest of the voices are vocalized on vowels. Despite this, I still recommend it.)
*Gothic Voices* - The Unknown Lover: Songs by Solage and Machaut


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## Guest (Apr 4, 2012)

I would also recommend the early music recordings of Anonymous 4 on Harmonia Mundi. Their recordings, in particular, of Hildegard von Bingen are very nice.


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## Sator (Jan 23, 2011)

Manxfeeder said:


> Hey, I got into Isaac because of Webern also! :tiphat: I wish he were better represented in recordings. And I totally agree with your assessment of Obrecht. Though Josquin and Obrecht are listed as contemporaries in music history books, most people don't realize that Josquin's greatest works didn't happen until after Obrecht was dead.


Agreed. I too wish Isaac were better represented on record. I've been wishing for decades without much luck. I used to send messages to Peter Phillips via the Tallis Scholars contact page pleading for them to do a follow-up recording. I even got a reply once from a secretary (?) saying that my message had been passed onto him and that he would think about it. That was almost ten years ago.

I would particularly love to hear the complete _Choralis Constantinus_. It would be a huge undertaking, at least for a work of this period. Webern wrote his doctoral thesis on this work under Guido Adler.

Have you heard the six-part motet _Angeli Archangeli_ by the Clerk's Group? Wow! It deserves to be _really_ popular, just as was in its day. I am amazed that this is still the only recording of this breathtakingly beautiful work.


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## Sator (Jan 23, 2011)

DrMike said:


> Normally I appreciate "authentic" performances, but at the end of the day, the beauty of the music wins out.


I tend to think of it as "advocacy". Phillips and the Tallis Scholars are often excellent advocates of the music they perform. As for "authenticity" the precise details of performance practice in this era are much more obscure, and even the most musicologically driven performers still have to fill in a lot of gaps.

Another group whose recordings I unfailingly collect are the Huelgas Ensemble under Paul van Nevel.


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## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

Sator said:


> Have you heard the six-part motet _Angeli Archangeli_ by the Clerk's Group? Wow! It deserves to be _really_ popular, just as was in its day. I am amazed that this is still the only recording of this breathtakingly beautiful work.


You bet, I've heard it!


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## Guest (Aug 29, 2014)

My favourite recording of the Tallis Scholars is a cd with music from John Sheppard.His Media Vita brings me almost in trance by its sheer beauty.The three setting of " In Manus Tuas" are also a "Hearts Solace ".It is really a pity that it is not more cherished.


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## SimonNZ (Jul 12, 2012)

Apparently the Tallis Scholars' own favorite of their discs is the Antoine Brumel one with the "Earthquake" Mass:










Like other on this thread I find their discography of consistently high quality.


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## Chordalrock (Jan 21, 2014)

It's easy to like the Tallis Scholars if you don't have much in terms of expectations about how the music should be sung. For example, they leave out leading tones left and right - they're really the worst offenders by far that I know - but if you don't expect there to be leading tones instead of subtonics then it probably won't bother you.

The leading tones may be an acquired taste but they do belong in the music and lend certain tonal gravity to it, because they create more tension toward the tonic than does the subtonic.

There are also other modifications of actual music - a note here, a note there - that performers may have to do at certain points, and I've noticed the difference can be like day and night. One version can sound rather flat, while another makes the passage come alive.

Since polyphony is also so important for the music, I think that the groups that try to bring that out via phrasing and clarity are preferable. The Tallis Scholars aren't bad for clarity, but they can be rather slow and monotonous.

I don't know if they've recorded all of these but if they have or ever do, I'm pretty sure I'd prefer... Cappella Pratensis for Ockeghem's Missa Mi-mi (slow but great). A Sei Voci for Josquin's "Missa Ave maris stella" and "Missa Hercules dux ferrariae". The Clerks are preferable for Ockeghem and Josquin though not perfect. Some good ones include Pro Cantione Antiqua and Ensemble Clement Janequin, although I have to listen to them more to be a better judge - they're preferable to the Tallis Scholars at any rate.


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## Guest (Aug 30, 2014)

I really love the Tallis Scholars but for the Thomas Tallis Lamentations I prefer the Hilliard Ensemble.The Palestrina Stabat Mater sung by The Taverner Choir and the same goes for the Allegri Miserere.The John Sheppard cd however is really wonderful.Other recordings with the Tallis Scholars wich I like are William Byrd,de Victoria ( requiem) and Heinrich Isaak.


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## Chordalrock (Jan 21, 2014)

I forgot to mention that they're probably all right for late Renaissance, which I'm not particularly fond of and haven't looked much into but supposedly the composers started notating things more carefully in the latter half of the 16th century - the printing press was popularising this music and it was reaching amateurs who wouldn't have known which notes to sing otherwise. So in these cases even the Tallis Scholars will have to sing the correct notes since they're plainly notated in the score.


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## Giordano (Aug 10, 2014)

I like these groups:

Ensemble Clement Janequin:
Josquin - Missa Pange Lingua

Diabolus in Musica
Their recording of Dufay's Missa Se La Face Ay Pale is beautiful.
Sample: 



Unfortunately, that's the only Missa recording by them.


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## Chordalrock (Jan 21, 2014)

I'll correct my previous too cursory evaluation of the Clerks. In their first Ockeghem album (Missa Mi-mi, 1994) they're bad with leading tones, but they learned to apply them at cadential points pretty soon afterwards. They certainly do Missa "De plus en plus" (1996) better than the Orlando Consort in these terms, based on listening to the kyrie I think it was. They already seem to apply leading tones properly already here. In Missa Caput (1998), which I'm the most familiar with, they're superb, guaranteed.

So I would say that, apart from their earliest recordings, the Clerks are probably solid, not just preferable to their competition but really solid renderings.

Wickham even mentions in his liner notes that some have said Ockeghem rarely cadences, while, Wickham continues, it seems that Ockeghem actually cadences very regularly - this is a clear indication that Wickham realises the old conception of where to apply leading tones is incorrect and that they should be applied everywhere where a phrase seems to cadence.

In this connection, it occurs to me that perhaps the Tallis Scholars have gone through a similar evolution. I certainly can't claim to have listened to enough of their recordings systematically enough and with enough attention paid to this issue that I could say they have not. I should sample their "minor mode" stuff from different decades and see if I notice any evolution in these terms. (It's usually in the minor modes where the application of leading tones becomes a big issue. It's an issue in G centered pieces as well whether minor or major hued, but not such an issue in C and F centered pieces due to the natural occurrence of leading tones in those 'keys'.)


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