# Bombings in Oslo



## Aksel

A few hours ago, there was a large explosion in the central government area with windows breaking within a one kilometre radius. Right now, several are injured and at least seven are confirmed dead, although there are more bodies inside the government buildings. Several buildings, like the offices of TV2, the biggest commercial TV channel and several newspapers have been evacuated. Luckily, the prime minister is alive and safe.

There has also been a shooting at Utøya, a little island outside of Oslo, at the summer camp of the Labour Party's youth organisation. Several people were shot and at least two are critically injured. Luckily, the gunman has been caught.

EDIT: Reports say that 10 people have been killed.

My thoughts go out to everyone affected by these tragedies in any way. I also hope that our Norwegian members who live in Oslo are all right.

BBC
CNN
NRK (Norwegian) (bombings)
NRK (Norwegian) (Utøya)


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## sospiro

This is tragic. Does anyone know the motive/reason? Was there a warning? (IRA used to give a coded warning)

Thoughts & prayers to the people of Oslo. Britain has a long and cherished friendship with Norway and each Christmas the city of Oslo donates a Christmas tree to the city of London in recognition of the help given to Norway during WW2.

wiki-link


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## Aksel

sospiro said:


> This is tragic. Does anyone know the motive/reason? Was there a warning? (IRA used to give a coded warning)


No. Nothing. There is a Islamist organisation that has claimed responsibility, but they seem to be completely unknown. Also, it seems like they have also claimed responsibility for the Fukushima business a few months ago.
Complicating matters further, is that the gunman at Utøya (which seems to be related to the Oslo bombings) was tall, blond and Nordic looking. As things look right now, I don't think that a Islamist terrorist organisation is behind it.

Of course, potential reasons could be Norway's role in Afghanistan and Libya.


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## TxllxT

I heard, that the central target was Norway's ministry of oil....


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## Aksel

TxllxT said:


> I heard, that the central target was Norway's ministry of oil....


We don't know anything, really, and everyone is reluctant to speculate. But I do think it is fair to assume that the attack in Oslo was directed towards the Norwegian government.


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## Vesteralen

I can think of nothing to say that seems adequate.


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## Manxfeeder

My thoughts and prayers are extended to the innocent victims in Oslo and Utøya and their loved ones and families.


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## regressivetransphobe

From what I hear, the shooter posed as a cop and said "come here, come here." Then he shot the kids when they were near. Pretty awful.


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## Aksel

regressivetransphobe said:


> From what I hear, the shooter posed as a cop and said "come here, come here." Then he shot the kids when they were near. Pretty awful.


Yes. The shootings at Utøya were rather gruesome. It must have been horrible to have been there.


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## mamascarlatti

Isn't it related to the publication of those cartoons of the Prophet in a newspaper some time ago?


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## Aksel

mamascarlatti said:


> Isn't it related to the publication of those cartoons of the Prophet in a newspaper some time ago?


We don't know. A book with all the caricatures was published not a month ago, and several Islamic terrorist organisations have taken responsibility for the bombings. But the gunman from Utøya is confirmed to be Norwegian, white, tall and blonde, and I don't think Al-Quaeda could be bothered with the summer camp of the youth organisation of the Norwegian Labour Party. It also seems like tha gunman at Utøya was behind, or at least took part in the bombing in Oslo, so things are a bit confusing.
I think it is an extreme right wing organisation at play here, as do many others. I think this is a new Oklahoma City, rather than a new 9/11.


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## Air

Some are saying that the attacks may be related to the part Norway played in the War in Afghanistan, but I'm not so sure. Whether Al-Queda is behind any of this, it's probably too early to tell. 

I do find it fishy though that Zawahiri (bin Laden's successor) was taped urging attacks on Norway in 2003. Of course, much of what I get on the news could just be the U.S. media hype at work, rather than the actual reality of things.

Anyhow, my thoughts reach out to those affected. The death toll right now is 16, and let's hope this number does not rise.


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## samurai

@ Aksel, Is there any indication so far to indicate that these two events might be somehow related? Of course, I join with the rest of the world in my sympathy for the Norwegian victims of these outrages, and in anger and horror at whomever it turns out perpetrated these crimes.


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## regressivetransphobe

Islamic extremists will and have taken credit, but that doesn't prove they're really responsible. It's an easy way to keep the flame of fear alive.


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## Aksel

samurai said:


> @ Aksel, Is there any indication so far to indicate that these two events might be related somehow?


According to the police, the two events are connected, but we don't really know. The gunman is being quiestioned right now, so I think we'll have more answers tomorrow. But the gunman at Utøya was dressed as a police officer, and a man dressed as a police officer was seen acting suspiciously mere minutes before the bomb went off. It's all a bit fuddled right now.


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## Aksel

regressivetransphobe said:


> Islamic extremists will and have taken credit, but that doesn't prove they're really responsible. It's an easy way to keep the flame of fear alive.


I agree. And besides, why would Islamic extremists target the summer camp of a youth political party?


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## samurai

Aksel said:


> According to the police, the two events are connected, but we don't really know. The gunman is being quiestioned right now, so I think we'll have more answers tomorrow. But the gunman at Utøya was dressed as a police officer, and a man dressed as a police officer was seen acting suspiciously mere minutes before the bomb went off. It's all a bit fuddled right now.


Yes, usually as time goes on and the investigation develops more, these things usually sort themselves out. In the meantime, though, I can imagine that there are, understandably, a lot of panic and rumors floating around, kind of like we experienced dircetly after the 9-11 attacks here in NY.


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## Aksel

samurai said:


> Yes, usually as time goes on and the investigation develops more, these things usually sort themselves out. In the meantime, though, I can imagine that there are, understandably, a lot of panic and rumors floating around, kind of like we experienced dircetly after the 9-11 attacks here in NY.


Actually, it seems that at least Norwegian media has been very good at not speculating too much, and we have been warned repeatedly from the police and even the PM that we should not speculate. There are of course conspiracy theorists that immediately claimed that this was an inside job, but they are generally viewed as rather crazy (they also believe that Lady Gaga is a member of the Illuminati and that the world will end in October). 
There is of course a sense of panic and a few rumours, but they are generally dispelled rather quickly.


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## regressivetransphobe

Whatever the deal may be, let's hope you guys don't get your civil liberties stripped and a brand new boatload of xenophobia like we got after our little terror incident in the states.


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## Aksel

regressivetransphobe said:


> Whatever the deal may be, let's hope you guys don't get your civil liberties stripped and a brand new boatload of xenophobia like we got after our little terror incident in the states.


I hope we won't, and judging from the speech the Prime Minister gave recently, in which he called for more democracy, more openness and more humanity, I think we won't.


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## samurai

@ Aksel, Please forgive me for not asking this obvious question of you earlier: Neither you nor any of your loved ones or friends have been injured, right? {I fervently hope not, of course}. Again, I apologize for not asking this ASAP!

Peace,
samurai


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## Aksel

samurai said:


> @ Aksel, Please forgive me for not asking this obvious question of you earlier: Neither you nor any of your loved ones or friends have been injured, right? {I fervently hope not, of course}. Again, I apologize for not asking this ASAP!
> 
> Peace,
> samurai


Oh, it's all right. No, thankfully I don't know anyone directly affected by this tragedy, although I do know two that were on Utøya, although they both survived.

In other news, the gunman at Utøya has been linked to an ultra-nationalistic organisation, the police says.


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## Sid James

I strongly concur with member Air's comments of hoping that the death toll is not going to escalate.

But to speak to what this terrible event brings to my mind, my "gut" reaction - this is quite a shock, esp. with regards to Norwegians (locals) possibly being behind this themselves. I have always seen the Scandinavian countries as being a place of moderation, peace, commonsense, bipartisanship, balanced, all that, in contrast to the rest of the European region which seems to be getting more & more divided along political, social, "ethnic" lines (despite the supposed unity behind the European Union), with reactionary leaders like that idiot Berlusconi (but I won't go on, it would probably be in bad taste). I basically thought places like Norway were above these kinds of extremes. Not any more, it seems, which saddens me a lot as well now...


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## Aksel

Police just confirmed at least 80 people dead at Utøya. Truly, this is one of the most tragic days in Norwegian history after WWII.


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## science

Yup, all condolences to the victims, their friends and families. 

Edit: Wow, 80 people. Some **** better pay for this. 

It will be interesting to see how quickly international interest (especially on the part of various governments) fades away if this turns out to be domestic extremism rather than Islamic fundamentalism.


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## Meaghan

Aksel said:


> I hope we won't, and judging from the speech the Prime Minister gave recently, in which he called for more democracy, more openness and more humanity, I think we won't.


Good for your PM. Such maturity is immensely valuable in the wake of such a tragedy. My heart goes out to everyone affected.


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## Tapkaara

Seems like this has nothing to do with Islam, but perhaps a Norwegian version of Tim McVeigh. In other words, a home-grown terrorist. Awful.


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## Almaviva

regressivetransphobe said:


> Whatever the deal may be, let's hope you guys don't get your civil liberties stripped and a brand new boatload of xenophobia like we got after our *little *terror incident in the states.


 Little?!???


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## Almaviva

I'm very sad for the victims, and shocked at the 80 people (I'd assume, mostly children) killed in the island.
Another crime perpetrated by right wing nuts... The world is regressing to a medieval state. It's disgusting.


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## HarpsichordConcerto

Bunch of savages. I sure hope they get caught and get the full weight of Norwegian justice on them.


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## Operafocus

They've now said it's 84 youth dead, but they're still searching for more missing and potentially dead. They've arrested and charged one guy, Anders Behring Breivik, who's a 32-year-old Christian fundamentalist. He's been frequenting at least one anti-Islamic site in Norway and has quotes like, _"One person with a belief is equal to the force of 100 000 who have only interests"_, on Twitter. It's claimed he's a freemason. He bought a farm so he could legally import a huge amount of artificial fertilizer in order to create the bomb. He also had about three guns officially registered to his name.

It seems like his attack was geared towards AP (labour), as the PM is labour and the youth camp was for labour youth - and his idea was to wipe out future labour politicians. The kids described a man dressed as a police officer, walking calmly around the island, executing teenagers hiding in their tents, hiding behind rocks, trying to swim away.

My partner and I were right around the corner yesterday at 3.26pm when the government buildings blew up. We thought, at first, that it was a gas explosion nearby, because the bang was so loud. Then we smelled what reminded of gun smoke, and within moments people flooded the streets. Yet it was total silence apart from alarms going off. People were wandering around in shock, crying quietly, calling their loved ones. We saw broken glass everywhere, and the sound of glass being walked on filled the air. At first we thought it came from one nearby restaurant, but soon realised it came a few hundred yards away, from the government buildings.










Once we got to the buildings themselves, we saw two women on the other side of the street: One completely covered in blood, with splinters all over her face, bleeding heavily from her head and nose. The other one had a 2 inch wooden stick piercing her skull. Both were calm and confused, clearly in shock, the woman with the stick touched the foreign object in her head, but was quickly advised to sit down and wait for an ambulance. We started hearing sirens and suddenly police and ambulance started flooding to the scene. At first there was a moment of disbelief, then one of them got word in his ear from somewhere, causing him to shout for everyone to evacuate as quickly as possible, causing everybody to run down the street. Scared, yet controlled. Several hundred yards away, we must have walked at least 15 minutes away from the bomb scene, and shattered glass was still being swept off the streets.










The scary thing is that we - my significant other and I - were running slightly late because he was meant to record a demo and had to get ProTools to work properly before we could leave. It delayed us by about 5 minutes. If we had been on time, we would have been right in the middle of it. 7 have been confirmed dead, 10 seriously wounded.

I'm still in shock and disbelief - and wonder what's happened to the woman with a stick through her head...


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## Bix

I keep thinking of what to write, but it's difficult. The people involved and the wider public are in my thoughts.

Aksel, I'm so very glad that you and yours are safe and unharmed.

Operafocus - what a horrid experience, you are in my thoughts.


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## sospiro

Operafocus said:


> The scary thing is that we - my significant other and I - were running slightly late because he was meant to record a demo and had to get ProTools to work properly before we could leave. It delayed us by about 5 minutes. If we had been on time, we would have been right in the middle of it. 7 have been confirmed dead, 10 seriously wounded.
> 
> I'm still in shock and disbelief - and wonder what's happened to the woman with a stick through her head...


We have had many terrorist incidents in UK but I have never been a witness to any of them. I cannot begin to imagine your thoughts & feelings at this time.

And the number of dead keeps rising.


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## Aksel

Operafocus said:


> They've now said it's 84 youth dead, but they're still searching for more missing and potentially dead. They've arrested and charged one guy, Anders Behring Breivik, who's a 32-year-old Christian fundamentalist. He's been frequenting at least one anti-Islamic site in Norway and has quotes like, _"One person with a belief is equal to the force of 100 000 who have only interests"_, on Twitter. It's claimed he's a freemason. He bought a farm so he could legally import a huge amount of artificial fertilizer in order to create the bomb. He also had about three guns officially registered to his name.
> 
> It seems like his attack was geared towards AP (labour), as the PM is labour and the youth camp was for labour youth - and his idea was to wipe out future labour politicians. The kids described a man dressed as a police officer, walking calmly around the island, executing teenagers hiding in their tents, hiding behind rocks, trying to swim away.
> 
> My partner and I were right around the corner yesterday at 3.26pm when the government buildings blew up. We thought, at first, that it was a gas explosion nearby, because the bang was so loud. Then we smelled what reminded of gun smoke, and within moments people flooded the streets. Yet it was total silence apart from alarms going off. People were wandering around in shock, crying quietly, calling their loved ones. We saw broken glass everywhere, and the sound of glass being walked on filled the air. At first we thought it came from one nearby restaurant, but soon realised it came a few hundred yards away, from the government buildings.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Once we got to the buildings themselves, we saw two women on the other side of the street: One completely covered in blood, with splinters all over her face, bleeding heavily from her head and nose. The other one had a 2 inch wooden stick piercing her skull. Both were calm and confused, clearly in shock, the woman with the stick touched the foreign object in her head, but was quickly advised to sit down and wait for an ambulance. We started hearing sirens and suddenly police and ambulance started flooding to the scene. At first there was a moment of disbelief, then one of them got word in his ear from somewhere, causing him to shout for everyone to evacuate as quickly as possible, causing everybody to run down the street. Scared, yet controlled. Several hundred yards away, we must have walked at least 15 minutes away from the bomb scene, and shattered glass was still being swept off the streets.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The scary thing is that we - my significant other and I - were running slightly late because he was meant to record a demo and had to get ProTools to work properly before we could leave. It delayed us by about 5 minutes. If we had been on time, we would have been right in the middle of it. 7 have been confirmed dead, 10 seriously wounded.
> 
> I'm still in shock and disbelief - and wonder what's happened to the woman with a stick through her head...


I am so sorry you had to witness something like that, but at the same time incredibly relieved that you're all right.


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## TxllxT

According to his Facebook the island shooter is a lover of hunting and..... classical music.


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## Norse

The bomb went off in a quarter I walk through all the time. I work closeby, use the library there frequently etc. I also used to work in one of the most damaged of the non-government buildings (VG-bygget). Not long ago I was at a party where one young woman said she works at the "R4" building, where they found dead people. I hope she wasn't there at the time.

Fortunately for me, I decided go straight home after work this friday, and left the area about 25 minutes before it happened. Needless to say, this is all very "close to home" for me, but at least I unknowingly escaped any "first hand trauma". Things just got worse when they started reporting the island shootings, but I couldn't have imagined we would wake up to "84 dead". 

I've been half expecting something like the down town bomb to happen sooner or later, what's surprising is where the attack came from. It makes it so completely "out of nowhere". Adding to the meaninglessness of it all (with an element of something positive I guess), is of course the fact that this will only have the complete opposite effect of what such a person would want. The party he targeted will probably only get more support, and the groupings who share his views will be in a kind of trouble they haven't been before. But then increased tension is often some of what terrorists are after, I guess.


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## Aksel

Norse said:


> I've been half expecting something like the down town bomb to happen sooner or later, what's surprising is where the attack came from. It makes it so completely "out of nowhere". Adding to the meaninglessness of it all (with an element of something positive I guess), is of course the fact that this will only have the complete opposite effect of what such a person would want. The party he targeted will probably only get more support, and the groupings who share his views will be in a kind of trouble they haven't been before.


I agree. If anything, this has brought the Norwegian people closer together, united against this kind of extremism. At least that's what I hope will happen, and it did seem like that was what happened last night.
I'll be very surprised if Stoltenberg looses the next election. Especially is he looses it to Siv Jensen.


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## karenpat

It's awful, just awful.  I'm safe and sound though, but just reading about it in the news and social media is heartbreaking.


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## science

Norse said:


> The bomb went off in a quarter I walk through all the time. I work closeby, use the library there frequently etc. I also used to work in one of the most damaged of the non-government buildings (VG-bygget). Not long ago I was at a party where one young woman said she works at the "R4" building, where they found dead people. I hope she wasn't there at the time.
> 
> Fortunately for me, I decided go straight home after work this friday, and left the area about 25 minutes before it happened. Needless to say, this is all very "close to home" for me, but at least I unknowingly escaped any "first hand trauma". Things just got worse when they started reporting the island shootings, but I couldn't have imagined we would wake up to "84 dead".
> 
> I've been half expecting something like the down town bomb to happen sooner or later, what's surprising is where the attack came from. It makes it so completely "out of nowhere". Adding to the meaninglessness of it all (with an element of something positive I guess), is of course the fact that this will only have the complete opposite effect of what such a person would want. The party he targeted will probably only get more support, and the groupings who share his views will be in a kind of trouble they haven't been before. But then increased tension is often some of what terrorists are after, I guess.


That last sentence is extremely wise. If we over-retaliate, they get exactly what they want (as they did with 9/11). It is crucial for the state to appear deliberative and just in its reaction.

It is very hard for people to feel that, and there will be an urge to retaliate in force....

In our prayers and shared sorrows for the Norwegian people, we should also hope they react wisely.


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## Almaviva

I'm relieved that all our Norwegian friends here in Talk Classical seem to be safe and sound although I'm afraid operafocus (and possibly others) will be suffering with the trauma aftereffects (I hope you get to vent and seek support from your real life friends and loved ones and from us here).


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## TxllxT

In order to understand the motives of Anders Behring Breivik, the bomber-killer, I would like to know whether the youngsters on that island were coming out of all Norwegian society or whether they mostly happened to have a 'multi-cultural' background. On the Dutch news I saw interviews with some of these youngsters who survived the onslaught and many of them seemed to me to have come from countries like India and so on (they all spoke Norwegian). The bomber-killer is said to have strong anti-Islamic convictions. When he went to the island with the intention to kill as much youngsters as he could (he was trained by long hours playing computergames) then we can still regard him as a plain lunatic. When however he went with the intention to kill as much 'non'-Norwegian youngsters as possible, he is apart from being this dangerous lunatic also an outright racist. 
In Holland the populist mr.Wilders (with Mozartian wig) was quick to dismiss any connection with the guy and his political sympathies.


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## Aksel

TxllxT said:


> In order to understand the motives of Anders Behring Breivik, the bomber-killer, I would like to know whether the youngsters on that island were coming out of all Norwegian society or whether they mostly happened to have a 'multi-cultural' background. On the Dutch news I saw interviews with some of these youngsters who survived the onslaught and many of them seemed to me to have come from countries like India and so on (they all spoke Norwegian). The bomber-killer is said to have strong anti-Islamic convictions. When he went to the island with the intention to kill as much youngsters as he could (he was trained by long hours playing computergames) then we can still regard him as a plain lunatic. When however he went with the intention to kill as much 'non'-Norwegian youngsters as possible, he is apart from being this dangerous lunatic also an outright racist.
> In Holland the populist mr.Wilders (with Mozartian wig) was quick to dismiss any connection with the guy and his political sympathies.


Well, all of the participants were Norwegians, high-ranking members of the Youth Labour Party. It seems that many of the members from the South-East, the most populous part of Norway, have a multicultural background. But I don't think that was the reason why he came to Utøya. I do think it was because it was a Labour camp, but we don't know much yet. Most is just mere speculation.


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## GoneBaroque

I had the great pleasure of visiting a number of places in Norway some years ago and was enchanted with both the country and the people. My thoughts and prayers are with all of you. It seems there are disturbed individuals everywhere.

"He who does not punish evil commands it" - Leonardo Divinci


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## Couchie

Unfortunately unlike most of these cowards he didn't do the world a favour and turn the gun on himself, prepare for a long trial around the insanity defence...


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## Aksel

Couchie said:


> Unfortunately unlike most of these cowards he didn't do the world a favour and turn the gun on himself, prepare for a long trial around the insanity defence...


I don't think he can plead insanity. At least judging by his activities online he was rather sane, sane for a right-wing extremist going on neonazi, but still. Sane.


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## Couchie

Aksel said:


> I don't think he can plead insanity. At least judging by his activities online he was rather sane, sane for a right-wing extremist going on neonazi, but still. Sane.


Sane right-wing extremist neonazis partake in the ocassional mostly-peaceful white pride protest and post racial slurs online. Personally I *really* need to believe that the Norway bomber's kind of actions are not committed by completely sane people.


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## Ukko

Quote Originally Posted by Aksel View Post
I don't think he can plead insanity. At least judging by his activities online he was rather sane, sane for a right-wing extremist going on neonazi, but still. Sane.



Couchie said:


> Sane right-wing extremist neonazis partake in the ocassional mostly-peaceful white pride protest and post racial slurs online. Personally I *really* need to believe that the Norway bomber's kind of actions are not committed by completely sane people.


Don't know how the Norwegian courts handle the issue of legal insanity - in the US the principle question is whether or not he can assist in his defense. It strikes me that this guy did what he did with motives he believes to be _altruistic_, and therefor an insanity defense would be against those convictions.

If he eventually does not have 'the strength of his convictions', he can always lay the blame on God.


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## Almaviva

Hilltroll72 said:


> Quote Originally Posted by Aksel View Post
> I don't think he can plead insanity. At least judging by his activities online he was rather sane, sane for a right-wing extremist going on neonazi, but still. Sane.
> 
> Don't know how the Norwegian courts handle the issue of legal insanity - in the US the principle question is whether or not he can assist in his defense. It strikes me that this guy did what he did with motives he believes to be _altruistic_, and therefor an insanity defense would be against those convictions.
> 
> If he eventually does not have 'the strength of his convictions', he can always lay the blame on God.


Unlike most laymen think (they tend to equal it with getting away with murder), an insanity defense usually only works if the defendant is well, insane, which can be determined with fair certainty by a panel of forensic psychiatrists. Not all right wing nuts are insane, but some are. Whether this guy is or isn't, we don't know, regardless of what he said on his facebook page. Expressing this or that conviction doesn't prove that this guy is or isn't insane; proving it or disproving it involves a lot more than that. Capacity to stand trial is different from insanity defense. It has to do with whether the person is able to mount a defense and work cooperatively with counsel (even insane people can be capable to stand trial). The insanity defense has to do with whether the person is able to distinguish right and wrong and whether the action was committed under free will or under the influence of a psychotic state with delusions and hallucinations.


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## Ukko

Thanks for the 'lawyerly' words. I wonder how the courts figure an insane person can 'mount a [sane] defense'. Seems to me he ipso facto (hah) lacks 'capacity'.

Thinking about this murdering of children nauseates me. A few hundred years ago, when punishments exhibited imagination, the judicious use of emetics... well, never mind; we are past that now.


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## mamascarlatti

Hilltroll72 said:


> Thinking about this murdering of children nauseates me.


Yes, can't stop thinking about all those unlived years and weeping parents.


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## Aksel

An update on recent, and very remarkable events:

The suspect, Anders Behring Breivik has confessed to both acts of terrorism. It is not known if he was alone or had any accomplices. He does not, however believe that he has committed any crime, and although he does not like what he did, he means it was necessary. 
Things have also become rather disturbing just in the past few hours. Just before he went to Oslo on Friday, Behring Breivik posted a 12 minute video to YouTube. In it, he compares himself to a Knight Templar (oh, and did I mention that he is a freemason? He is), and waged war against Marxists and Islamists. In addition, he also published the manuscript for a 1500+ page manifest, on which he has been working for several years. He explains his very extreme views, and also explains how an attack should be done, even what sort of equipment to use. In his manifesto, he also goes through historical events, often relating them to the Knights Templar. Other highlights include how cultural Marxism has destroyed Europe from WWII and until today, the threat of Islamic colonisation and his plans to build a better society. He also talks about how to set up fake mining companies in order to gain access to explosives and questions concerning purity of race.

The massacre at Utøya took 85 lives, making it the most violent massacre performed by a lone individual in history. Truly, this day will never be forgotten.


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## Ukko

Well, strangeness abounds. The Knights Templar were devoured by the Church centuries ago. Even so, associating them or Freemasonry with his actions seems equivalent in the tarbrush category to burning herbalists as witches.

Has anyone investigated his relations with the Hell's Angels? The Aryan Brotherhood? The Girl Scouts?

Is it possible that the guy's mind is simply consumed by demons?


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## HarpsichordConcerto

A BBC report stated Breivik is a Christian fundanmentalist and right-wing extremist. Regardless of his self-righteous ill-beliefs, insanity doesn't necessarily give the defense team a case especially on a crime of this scale, the social-political consequences of an "unfair" trial cannot be understimated. I doubt Breivik would even remotely be deemed as unfit to stand trial given to begin with.


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## Almaviva

Hilltroll72 said:


> Thanks for the 'lawyerly' words. I wonder how the courts figure an insane person can 'mount a [sane] defense'. Seems to me he ipso facto (hah) lacks 'capacity'.


Oh no, insanity is not necessarily a global impairment of brain functions, it's often by compartments. People can be insane and still able to function in various ways. The stereotype seen in movies of people behaving bizarrely in psychiatric wards is not usually true. A psychotic person usually holds normal conversations and shows normal behavior at least 90% of the time. They can perfectly sit down with their lawyers, figure out a strategy, consider plea agreements, etc., although they believe for instance that a computer chip has been installed in their brains to control their actions. Psychosis doesn't mean irrational behavior and irrational beliefs at *all* times and in *all* areas of functioning, much the opposite. Global impairments like these are more common in the case of dementia or mental retardation. Psychotic individuals on the other hand can be quite smart and organized.

Capacity to stand trial like I said has to do with ability to mount a defense, to cooperate with counsel (the defendant's lawyer) and to understand the charges and the functions of the court (what a judge does, what a prosecutor does, what the jurors do). Determination of capacity to stand trial merely investigates whether or not these abilities are present, regardless of the person's ideas or convictions, which are left to a posterior phase.

Once able to stand trial, then the psychotic defendant may or may not use an insanity defense. "Successful" use of an insanity defense would then result in a verdict of "Not Guilty for Reason of Insanity." But even with certified presence of insanity, such defense may fail, if the prosecution is able to prove that regardless of the defendant's state of mind and psychotic illness, he or she knew very well that what he/she [allegedly] was doing was wrong, and was fully able to refrain from doing it. In that case, the verdict would be "Guilty." It's not like psychotic people can't be found "Guilty."

But if they are found to be "Not Guilty for Reason of Insanity" - say, the imagined computer chip in their brains gave them hallucinatory commands to act, which they were unable to counteract, and which they found to be the right thing to do, or in other words, they acted out of their brain disease, not out of criminal intent - it doesn't mean that they'll be "getting away with murder." It usually means that they will be court-ordered to treatment in a Forensic Psychiatric Unit instead of being sentenced to prison. They'll still be locked up; just, they'll be locked up in a psychiatric facility rather than a prison (the former are often not that much better than the latter).

So, you may ask, what if they are treated and improve, are they released back into society in the short run, effectively "getting away with murder"?

Theoretically, yes, but in reality, no.

The court would have to be consulted before discharge. And what usually happens is that, while it's not written in the law anywhere, the presiding judge will just apply a sort of common-sense equivalence. Let's suppose the original crime would have warranted in normal circumstances a 10-year prison sentence, or a life sentence. Then the psychotic defendant is court-ordered to inpatient treatment in a forensic psychiatric unit (they look just like prisons, with barbed wire, high fences, etc.) subject to annual review. He/she is treated and gets better. The doctor testifies to the court that the person has recovered and is no longer dangerous, and might be released. The judge usually summarily denies the claim, and keeps the person locked up until such time when a non-insane person would have been released in similar circumstances, or never if it's a life-sentence kind of offense.

P.S. - I'm saying how these matters are dealt with in my country, the United States. Of course I'm not aware of how the courts in Norway deal with similar matters, but I have no reason to believe that they behave any differently, since expertise about psychotic defendants from the medical/psychiatric standpoint is pretty much the same across cultures, and taught the same way in North American or European text books.


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## mamascarlatti

Thanks Alma, this is very interesting.


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## Operafocus

http://www.vg.no/nyheter/innenriks/oslobomben/artikkel.php?artid=10080683
*
Anders Behring Breivik (32) about killings: - Gruesome but necessary *


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## TxllxT

The man has published 1500 pages on the internet, written in English, in which he in detail describes how to make a fertilizer bomb and announces his plans to kill the youngsters on the island. The last update he added on Friday morning. Well, such behaviour: is it sane or insane? What influence does the worldwide internet have on such people?


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## Almaviva

TxllxT said:


> The man has published 1500 pages on the internet, written in English, in which he in detail describes how to make a fertilizer bomb and announces his plans to kill the youngsters on the island. The last update he added on Friday morning. Well, such behaviour:* is it sane or insane?* What influence does the worldwide internet have on such people?


 It depends on your definition of sanity. But strictly speaking from the psychiatric definition, it can be either. There are extremists who are sane, and there are also those who are insane.

As for the Internet's role, certainly it makes information more accessible, and sometimes, the wrong kind of information.

I don't know the details, but was this guy posting about his plans to kill a bunch of innocent youngsters in advance, and nobody thought of monitoring him in some way?

I guess that there is a price to pay for freedom. Since the Patriot Act, I assume that it is more difficult for someone in the US to post stuff like this and still go unnoticed to the point of going ahead and doing it.

Or not. The Virginia Tech guy had exhibited a number of red flags and even got psychiatric attention but still was able to go ahead and do it.

So, while I'm a liberal, sometimes I wonder if these days it is actually justified to do away with a chunk of our freedoms in order to prevent this kind of thing from happening.

It's one thing to think about this abstractly, but I wonder if the parents of the kids who got killed wouldn't have liked it if in Norway individual liberties were a bit less protected, allowing the police to track down and limit this guy's ability to carry on with his plan after having advertised his intention on the Internet.

I'm ambivalent about this. I'm for individual freedoms and I recognize that there was over-reaction in the US after 9/11, but I also don't want to see innocents get killed by terrorists and extremists.

There's gotta be a balance somewhere, some measure of looking for society's greater good versus individual liberties.

I think that I reluctantly support some of the provisions in the Patriot Act, if they can prevent this sort of tragedy.


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## Operafocus

What they can't say is that he had "a moment of insanity", considering he planned this for about nine years. What people find outrageous around the world is that for killing near a hundred people, he only gets 21 years in jail. However, although he officially gets 21 years in prison, the likelihood of him ever getting out are rather slim. He'll be kept locked up for the rest of his life, I would imagine, just not as part of a jail sentence. They've now decided to close the hearing before he's put in jail for 8 weeks as they're, I guess, trying to figure out what to do with him. In about half an hour the hearing will begin - but fortunately nobody will get in, and he won't be getting a platform to utter his sick views and reasons behind the massacre. 

I do hope part of his punishment is psychological treatment that will heal him enough to make him realise exactly what he's done. Cause now he doesn't even think he deserves to be punished, as he's done society a favour.

It's been a weird few days. It dawned on me how close we actually came to getting blown up. Had we been on time we would have been right in the middle of those buildings, as that's a shortcut I always take. I think it's fairly safe to say I wouldn't be here then. There's also images that will keep haunting me. Badly hurt people everywhere, the image of a man (with missing legs) being given CPR by a desperate civilian, although he was clearly long gone... Compared to the youth on that island, this is "nothing" by comparison, but it's not exactly every day life.


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## Guest

Not to diminish the horror of what happened, but at least in these horrible situations, we also get to see just how wonderful humanity can be:
http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/0,1518,776287,00.html


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## Almaviva

Operafocus said:


> What they can't say is that he had "a moment of insanity", considering he planned this for about nine years. What people find outrageous around the world is that for killing near a hundred people, he only gets 21 years in jail. However, although he officially gets 21 years in prison, the likelihood of him ever getting out are rather slim. He'll be kept locked up for the rest of his life, I would imagine, just not as part of a jail sentence. They've now decided to close the hearing before he's put in jail for 8 weeks as they're, I guess, trying to figure out what to do with him. In about half an hour the hearing will begin - but fortunately nobody will get in, and he won't be getting a platform to utter his sick views and reasons behind the massacre.
> 
> I do hope part of his punishment is psychological treatment that will heal him enough to make him realise exactly what he's done. Cause now he doesn't even think he deserves to be punished, as he's done society a favour.
> 
> It's been a weird few days. It dawned on me how close we actually came to getting blown up. Had we been on time we would have been right in the middle of those buildings, as that's a shortcut I always take. I think it's fairly safe to say I wouldn't be here then. There's also images that will keep haunting me. Badly hurt people everywhere, the image of a man (with missing legs) being given CPR by a desperate civilian, although he was clearly long gone... Compared to the youth on that island, this is "nothing" by comparison, but it's not exactly every day life.


Yes, if they conclude he is insane, it won't be "a moment of insanity" but long-term psychosis. "A moment of insanity" (like betrayed people who kill in a jealous rage) is not usually successfully used as part of a _bona fide _insanity defense (which aims at long-standing psychosis), but rather, as attenuating circumstance that may reduce the degree of a charge or shorten a sentence. Not his case, obviously.

So, is your maximum sentence in Norway 21 years, even for a hideous crime like this? In this case, I hope that they *do* consider him insane and use civil commitment laws to keep him locked up for life.

Yes, your experience was quite traumatic, I bet, and feel sorry for you. Do expect some aftereffects (nightmares, flashbacks, easy startle, avoidance, anxiety, some depression). Validating one's symptoms of acute stress or post-traumatic stress as something normal and expected is often a way to shorten the severity and duration of these symptoms. Get good support and good help. My thoughts are with you and with the families of the victims.


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## Almaviva

DrMike said:


> Not to diminish the horror of what happened, but at least in these horrible situations, we also get to see just how wonderful humanity can be:
> http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/0,1518,776287,00.html


 Yes, admirable.


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## Lipatti

Over 150 000 people gathered today here in the centre of Oslo to commemorate last Friday's tragedy. There was supposed to be a march through Oslo's main street from the city hall all the way to the cathedral where a flower bed has grown enormously over the last days, but the police stopped this initiative because way too many people showed up.

Picture slideshow


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## rojo

That's beautiful.

There are no words for this tragedy.

I admire the way the Norwegian people have come together peacefully with love and support for each other. 

Deep condolences to the families of the victims, and to the country.


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## Sid James

I don't know if it's relevant if he planned it long before, even in that case he's probably still insane. I think a person basically has to be to do something of that magnitude. Here in Australia, we had a similar massacre down in Tasmania, at Port Arthur. It was in the mid-1990's & it prompted then Prime Minister John Howard to bring in tighter gun control laws. The perpetrator Martin Bryant was locked up for life (I think?), but he was tried in a closed court, the public or even journalists weren't allowed in. I can't remember the reason/s for this, & I think Bryant's motivations for committing this horrendous crime may still be unclear. This ambiguity has fuelled the usual conspiracy theories of course, a number with a degree of validity, but many just going way over the top (of course, people will be suspicious & ask questions if they are not told the facts, if these are kept secret)...


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## Norse

The latest is that they are considering charging him for crimes against humanity, which could give him 30 years instead of the usual maximum of 21. Either way, they can keep him locked up after that if he is still considered a menace.

I consider him "some kind of crazy", even though experts said early on that this kind of focused planning isn't consistent with actual insanity. He thinks of himself as some kind of European superhero / saviour, and has delutions about what society is really like. For instance, according to his lawyer, he thinks torture is common in Norwegian prisons.


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## TxllxT

An Italian member of the Europarliament Mario Borghezi has praised the Norwegian bomber-killer for his thoughts (over 'multi-culturalism'), that they "are in-depth sane". It seems that we are witnessing in Europe again a coming-out of Nazism. Nothing 'neo'- anymore. Breivik admired the genocide-killings in Bosnia led by Radovan Karadžić & Ratko Mladic.


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## Aksel

TxllxT said:


> An Italian member of the Europarliament Mario Borghezi has praised the Norwegian bomber-killer for his thoughts (over 'multi-culturalism'), that they "are in-depth sane". It seems that we are witnessing in Europe again a coming-out of Nazism. Nothing 'neo'- anymore. Breivik admired the genocide-killings in Bosnia led by Radovan Karadžić & Ratko Mladic.


I've read similar things said by others, but it is shocking to hear something like that coming from an elected official, let alone one in the European Parliament. Truly horrifying.

Also, in other news, Glenn Beck disgusts me to my very core.


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## Operafocus

Glenn Beck is a c*nt, if you'll excuse my French...

By the way, 150,000+ people met up in Oslo yesterday bearing roses, spontaneously breaking into Norway's national anthem. 



 and left flowers all over town http://www.vgtv.no/#!id=42479 
Very moving.


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## mamascarlatti

Aksel said:


> I've read similar things said by others, but it is shocking to hear something like that coming from an elected official, let alone one in the European Parliament. Truly horrifying.
> 
> Also, in other news, Glenn Beck disgusts me to my very core.


Honestly I despair sometimes. What is wrong with these people?


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## GoneBaroque

Operafocus, your remark is insulting to a body part which at least has some use. I think Glenn Beck is trying to keep his faltering image alive by making outlandish statements in order to keep his name before the public.


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## graaf

TxllxT said:


> An Italian member of the Europarliament Mario Borghezi has praised the Norwegian bomber-killer for his thoughts (over 'multi-culturalism'), that they "are in-depth sane". It seems that we are witnessing in Europe again a coming-out of Nazism. Nothing 'neo'- anymore. Breivik admired the genocide-killings in Bosnia led by Radovan Karadžić & Ratko Mladic.


Seems incredible to me how easy fascism appears. All you need is certain percentage of unemployment, some immigrants, and you already have "common enemy" mindset. Proclaim certain problems as taboos, and masses of people will feel threatened. And it will not be simple rerun, it will come again in somewhat different shape. But when you think about it, maybe fascism never left us - people simply had a few decades of economic growth, during which they were not interested if there was any fascism. As George Carlin said:

_When fascism comes to America, it will not be in brown and black shirts. It will not be with jackboots. It will be Nike sneakers and smiley shirts... Germany lost the Second World War. Fascism won it._

Now EU/USA is losing ground and, after all, we are bloodiest, most dangerous race on the face of the Earth...

Obviously, I feel pesimistic today.


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## Ukko

graaf said:


> [...]
> As George Carlin said:
> _When fascism comes to America, it will not be in brown and black shirts. It will not be with jackboots. It will be Nike sneakers and smiley shirts... Germany lost the Second World War. Fascism won it._
> [...]


Carlin's terminology is slightly off, or he didn't realize that_ Plutocracy With Spin_ has had a firm hold on the USA for awhile. Hmm; well, there ain't all that much difference....


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## graaf

Well, depending on definition, there might not be much of a difference. Carlin talked about plutocracy too, but I don't want to turn this topic into George Carlin tribute, so I'll just direct interested people to http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/George_Carlin and search for: real owners .


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## Fsharpmajor

Aksel said:


> Glenn Beck disgusts me to my very core.


Here is a satirical treatment of Glenn Back's remarks. It's a shame that he'll probably never see it:

*http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/...se-pressure-on-massacre-victims-201107264119/*


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## Norse

Fsharpmajor said:


> Here is a satirical treatment of Glenn Back's remarks. It's a shame that he'll probably never see it:
> 
> *http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/...se-pressure-on-massacre-victims-201107264119/*


Nice. I wish I had the network to spread that link so it would eventually reach millions, but I'm not even on Facebook.

I was a little disappointed Jon Stewart didn't rip Beck a new one (yet), like he has done over less 'spectacular' comments than this.. But maybe the massacre just isn't something he wants to mention on a comedy show at all.


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## Oskaar

A surviving girl commented to cnn:

If one man have such hate, then just imagine how much love the rest of us can give!


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## Bix

It's hard to find news on this now, what with the UK pillock parades recently.

Does anyone know how things are?


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## Aksel

Bix said:


> It's hard to find news on this now, what with the UK pillock parades recently.
> 
> Does anyone know how things are?


The last victim was buried yesterday. The whole incident has been recreated at Utøya. He-whose-name-must-not-be-mentioned wants to go to court in his gala uniform. Election season has begun, over a month late. Police has been severly criticised for several reasons, like responding too late and not having the police helicopter available. Lots of nonsense about how the Labour party was responsible and how it is really is the Muslims' fault after all has been spewed out weekly from high-ranking members of the conservativest party.


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## Bix

Oh dear - thanks for the update.


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## Norse

Aksel said:


> Lots of nonsense about how the Labour party was responsible and how it is really is the Muslims' fault after all has been spewed out weekly from high-ranking members of the conservativest party.


Have FrP'ers said that? That's a bit strange (and early) even for them. Guess I haven't been following the news very closely lately.


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## Aksel

Norse said:


> Have FrP'ers said that? That's a bit strange (and early) even for them. Guess I haven't been following the news very closely lately.


Yes. Most recently Carl I. Hagen. He made Per Sandberg look like the reflected one of the party.


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