# Do you ever wish you lived "across the pond"?



## Couchie

As we are mostly Europeans and N. Americans, do you wish you lived yonder the ocean in the other?

I know we have a small Australian/NZ presence - you don't matter per usual.


----------



## Sid James

Couchie said:


> ...
> I know we have a small Australian/NZ presence - you don't matter per usual.


Nope we don't, but who cares? _Across the pond_ for us is the rest of the world. We're pretty far from anything major (except if you count S.E. Asia).


----------



## Klavierspieler

Wish I lived? No. 

Like to visit? Yes.


----------



## TrazomGangflow

I live in America and I have often thought that living in Europe would be nice. I'm not one of those people who detest America or Europe and each has it's pros and cons. I am perfectly happy in America though and it really doesn't make much of a difference to me. I would, however, have a problem living anywhere other than Britain or Spain since I can only speak English and Spanish.


----------



## Kevin Pearson

Not really. I'm a North American and enjoy living in the Southern U.S. The deterioration of Western civilization and morality in Europe does not attract me. I enjoy what European culture has given us the last 500 years in music, literature, and culture but sadly I fear in the not too distant future there will be little left of what so many have sacrificed to try and save. Unfortunately the U.S. generally follows Europe's self-destructive trends but thankfully we're about 50 years behind so our death will be a little slower. 

Kevin


----------



## Arsakes

We have borders with 'European countries', but are Asian. 
I like to live in America, not in major cities though. Already living in a megalopolis and hate it.


----------



## SottoVoce

I don't wish to live in Europe now, but I think I would be much more at home in an earlier century in European history. Perhaps turn of the century Vienna or Paris. My temperament and sensibilities largely stem from there I think.


----------



## Praeludium

Hmmm.. I can't see any deterioration of morality and civilization right there. What country are you thinking of ? Or what deterioration precisely ?

I'm a bit fascinated by America (as well as a ton of other places), except Los Angeles q: but I wouldn't want to live there. 
I like old towns, old city centers, and I hate suburbs/exurbs (which seems to be were almost everybody live in the USA).

So my answer is basically Klavierspieler's.


----------



## neoshredder

Italy or Spain would be interesting.


----------



## Badinerie

I love living in Britain and Im not ashamed to say it! Europe is marvelous too. I would love to visit the US someday, but Im afraid I wouldn't find it deteriorated and Immoral enough for me


----------



## ZombieBeethoven

Yes, but with some conditional language. I haven't visited Europe in a few years and I am concerned that the process of decay may not be up to my standards. I find that the amorality and decrepitude in the US to be of a significantly high standard. Still crossing the pond may be pleasant. A country house next to a pond in Italy, perhaps. Or how about crossing a different pond? I would quite like to spend some more time near Kyoto.

PS I am a little concerned about the process of moving this thread to another forum. I have never been involved with such a migration. Will there be any side-effects? I am not prone to motion sickness, but should I take precautions?


----------



## ZombieBeethoven

I forgot that I had actually lived across the pond twenty some odd years ago. A few months in Cambridge. Do I have to change my vote? This is getting awfully complicated...


----------



## Art Rock

I had the chance to live and work in Houston in the past and turned it down. Europe or Asia for me.


----------



## ComposerOfAvantGarde

Couchie said:


> I know we have a small Australian/NZ presence - you don't matter per usual.


:scold::scold::scold:

I wouldn't want to live "across the pond" because right now the city I'm in is the most liveable city in the world.


----------



## emiellucifuge

Ive lived in both sides of the pond, albeit mostly in Europe.

I voted no.

I love Europe for the history which is just present everywhere in the architecture and culture. The great social tolerance and lack of poverty. The diversity of culture - i can drive for a day without going through any immigration and leave the flat dutch farmland to arrive in the spanish campo or in the wiener staatsoper for example.


----------



## joen_cph

Voted no, but on second thoughts I would like a sample of New York for say 2-3 months. Still on my to-do-list, haven´t been there.


----------



## violadude

Yes, I wish I didn't live in a country that made up fake wars as an excuse to go across seas and kill people for power.

OOPS! Did I say that??  Silly me. The age is setting in already.


----------



## Norse

Not really. I guess it would be fun to visit, but for various cultural reasons I have no desire to move to America.


----------



## ComposerOfAvantGarde

violadude said:


> Yes, I wish I didn't live in a country that made up fake wars as an excuse to go across seas and kill people for power.
> 
> OOPS! Did I say that??  Silly me. The age is setting in already.


But what you said was entirely truthful and honest and that's what all people _should_ be.


----------



## elgar's ghost

If I had about 12-18 months and the appropriate amount of money to spare then exploring the USA and Canada would be something I'd really like to do - I think I'd need that long in order to decide whether I could stay there permanently especially taking into account how diverse North America is. If I did settle in the States I'd still like to retain my UK citizenship, though - if I had a house rather than an apartment would it be rude to fly TWO flags at the front of it?


----------



## Klavierspieler

violadude said:


> Yes, I wish I didn't live in a country that made up fake wars as an excuse to go across seas and kill people for power.
> 
> OOPS! Did I say that??  Silly me. The age is setting in already.


Welcome to Mars! The land of peace and red.

Current population: You and some robots.


----------



## Vesteralen

Since I have a very low tolerance for hot weather, I wouldn't mind living somewhere other than the continental US. Alaska? Northern Scandinavia or Scotland? Isn't going to happen, though.

I would like to live someplace where nobody watches gory movies, too, but I guess there aren't any places like that left, are there?


----------



## Chrythes

I'd like to visit but I doubt I'd settle there. There's too much to see in Europe before deciding where to settle,
and overall I believe I'd choose Europe over the US or Canada, since the diversity here is enormous and also very reachable.


----------



## superhorn

I love America , but I am serioulsy worried about its future . The republican party is a threat to this country because it's been taken over by a bunch of ignorant,inbred Hillbilly Bible-thumping idiots and ignoramuses who want to turn America into an evangelical Christian theocracy which would be little better than the Islamic theocracies in Iran Saudi Arabia and elsewhere in the middle east .
I'm not anti-christian and don't hate Christians in general. I have no problem with Christians who are sane,rational and tolerant people. But unforunately, there don't seem to be many of them left in America.
Republicans are also mostly opposed to government funding for the arts, and if they got their way, they would abolish the National Endowment for the Arts , and this could be disastporus for our many wonderful orchestras an d opera companies, which are already having a difficult enough time.
At least in Europe, people value their orchestras and opera companies and nobody objects ot government support for them, unlike the ignorant philistines in the republican party and so many other conservatives here.


----------



## TxllxT

Living on a Dutch island with a small pond on the westside that separates us from Britain and even smaller ponds that separate us from the European (Dutch) mainland: perfectly closeby for travelling when we want to & perfectly kept on safe distance when needed. Texel receives the biggest number of sunshine-hours (of Holland), while the maximum temperatures do not exceed 25 degrees  in the summer. I just spoke with a fellow islander who spent 14 days in Dallas, Texas, with 37 degrees outside. He just spent the time with staying inside .

To summarise all: America doesn't understand soccer, I don't understand America.


----------



## Ravndal

Satisfied with living in Norway


----------



## violadude

superhorn said:


> I love America , but I am serioulsy worried about its future . The republican party is a threat to this country because it's been taken over by a bunch of ignorant,inbred Hillbilly Bible-thumping idiots and ignoramuses who want to turn America into an evangelical Christian theocracy which would be little better than the Islamic theocracies in Iran Saudi Arabia and elsewhere in the middle east .
> I'm not anti-christian and don't hate Christians in general. I have no problem with Christians who are sane,rational and tolerant people. But unforunately, there don't seem to be many of them left in America.
> Republicans are also mostly opposed to government funding for the arts, and if they got their way, they would abolish the National Endowment for the Arts , and this could be disastporus for our many wonderful orchestras an d opera companies, which are already having a difficult enough time.
> At least in Europe, people value their orchestras and opera companies and nobody objects ot government support for them, unlike the ignorant philistines in the republican party and so many other conservatives here.


Two words: Rick Santorum. Man did that guy live on a different planet.


----------



## Jeremy Marchant

How interesting - at the time of my voting, two thirds of Americans want to live in Europe and 85% of Europeans want to live in Europe. For myself, I could imagine living in Vancouver (if I was forced to live in a city at all), but the US - I don't think so.


----------



## Sid James

superhorn said:


> ... At least in Europe, people value their orchestras and opera companies and nobody objects ot government support for them, unlike the ignorant philistines in the republican party and so many other conservatives here...


What's in Europe, it's just a facade of civilisation. That's what I got from Kevin Pearson's post (I won't comment on the morality part, except to say it's equally immoral to have far right leaders in power as Europe has already had a track record of in recent years - Berlusconi, Haider, Fortuyn). Yeah, they can watch their lovely orchestras while poor excuses for leaders like that are in power. I'm being extreme here but let's face it, there is an ugly underbelly to Europe, same as anywhere (& I won't mention the war, promise, I'll let Basil Fawlty do that).

Rant over.


----------



## Couchie

Jeremy Marchant said:


> How interesting - at the time of my voting, two thirds of Americans want to live in Europe and 85% of Europeans want to live in Europe. For myself, I could imagine living in Vancouver (if I was forced to live in a city at all), but the US - I don't think so.


Europeans have the advantage that they're a lot more diversity there. While I'd like to live in some places (Germany, Netherlands), I'm lukewarm on others (UK, France, Italy), little interest for some (Norway, Sweden, Spain, Portugal), and "never in hell" on others (Baltic states, Ukraine, Belarus, Greece).

Europeans on the other hand either like the USA or they don't (and we know which way they lean), and maybe they are more than vaguely familiar with Canada.


----------



## Krummhorn

If it ever were an option, I would spend my Summers in Denmark (where I also have relatives) and the rest of the time at home here in Arizona. I hate living in a frying pan during the summers here.


----------



## Chopinator

I wouldn't want to live across the pond (I'm in North America). Sure, it would be a wonderful place to visit, especially Ireland, the land of my ancestors, but other than that I have little interest in going to Europe. (Though it would be super fun to go to Vienna and take a look at Mozart's House/Museum)


----------



## KRoad

Well I grew up in England, Canada, the USA, and NZ. I've lived and worked in N.Z. and Australia for extended periods and for the last 23 years have lived and worked in Berlin. I travel intercontinental at least twice a year. Would I like to live across the pond?
Hell no. Why bother. There's good and bad points from social, humanitarian, economic and existential perspectives in all places. To prefer one place over another without having savoured the delights of destinations unknown is well... pretty ignorant wouldn't you say?


----------



## Lenfer

A very strange lot here on *TC*...

In my experience *North Americans* quite like being *New Worlders* but hey. :tiphat:


----------



## Lenfer

Krummhorn said:


> If it ever were an option, I would spend my Summers in Denmark (where I also have relatives) and the rest of the time at home here in Arizona. I hate living in a frying pan during the summers here.


*Denmark* is nice but why go home in the winter? Winter is the best part in *Denmark*, the *Danes* know how to do *Christmas*.


----------



## cwarchc

What have the Romans ever done for us?
apart from ???????


----------



## Xaltotun

I admire the USA in some respects (less so on others...), and I'd love to visit it, but I wouldn't like to live there, nor anywhere else apart from Europe. Europe is what my heart beats to - the history and the IDEA of Europe, never mind the current condition.


----------



## quack

I like living "In" the pond, if you haven't come to throw bread, get lost.


----------



## violadude

I think I could tolerate the USA a lot more if I could get rid of large portions of the population...specifically in the south...

No offense to Southern USA TC members, I would make sure you guys can still stay.


----------



## DmitriShostabrovich

I actually want to go to the Sibelius Academy for grad school eventually...is there anybody here that's from Finland? From everything I've read, it sounds like a nice place to live, but it would be nice to hear from somebody that's actually there.


----------



## Tero

I have lived on both sides of the pond, 15 and 40 years. No such poll option.

I am a birder and have 300-350 north am birds and 70 europe. So I wish for a summer there may to july to up Europe to 150-200.

Send me your email in PM, my son us going to a Finnish university for half a year.


----------



## Tero

Lenfer said:


> *Denmark* is nice but why go home in the winter? Winter is the best part in *Denmark*, the *Danes* know how to do *Christmas*.


You meant beer, right, not Christmas?


----------



## jttoft

Tero said:


> Lenfer said:
> 
> 
> 
> Denmark is nice but why go home in the winter? Winter is the best part in Denmark, the Danes know how to do Christmas.
> 
> 
> 
> You meant beer, right, not Christmas?
Click to expand...

- Well, I think we do both quite well.  It's always nice to see people say good things about your home country, so I thank you for the kind words.

As for the topic at hand, I love Denmark, and, frankly, overall, I can't imagine a better place to live.
With that said, I do sometimes imagine what it would be like to live "across the pond" in the United States. There's just something about the US with its history, diverse and magnificent nature, proud military and incredible cities that's so appealing. I have only been there once (in Florida on holiday in 2009), but I'm actually going again next month (this time mainly California, but also Nevada and Arizona). I'm really looking forward to visiting the States again!


----------



## Lenfer

Tero said:


> You meant beer, right, not Christmas?


I meant cakes,  not a beer drinker but you I'm sure it's good beer.


----------



## SiegendesLicht

I would love to live in the US (preferbaly in Colorado, Alaska, Washington or any other state where there is real winter) and be able to visit Germany, the UK and the Scandinavian countries once in a while. There are many things about the culture of those countries that I admire: architecture, history, languages and of course music, but for everyday life, working, shopping, having a family and raising kids the USA is a far more convenient place.


----------



## jani

Somewhere were its warm around the year and they speak English
So, Florida,California or Australia.


----------



## Mephistopheles

Kevin Pearson said:


> Not really. I'm a North American and enjoy living in the Southern U.S. The deterioration of Western civilization and morality in Europe does not attract me. I enjoy what European culture has given us the last 500 years in music, literature, and culture but sadly I fear in the not too distant future there will be little left of what so many have sacrificed to try and save. Unfortunately the U.S. generally follows Europe's self-destructive trends but thankfully we're about 50 years behind so our death will be a little slower.
> 
> Kevin


What on earth is this nonsense?! Nero is playing his fiddle, methinks.


----------



## Ravndal

Didn't understand that post either. I really have no idea about what he is talking about.


----------



## BurningDesire

Honestly, sometimes. Europe tends to give a crap a little more about classical/instrumental music, and alot of Europe isn't as religiously crazy as the US. Much of it seems to be more progressive. Japan in some similar aspects (though the racism and sexism I hear is pretty bad)


----------



## starthrower

I hate the money grubbing, materialistic aspect of America. I just see things getting worse and worse as more and more dirty money floods the political system. Nobody in power gives a damn about the common good, or future generations.

It seems some of the small European countries can agree on a positive path to the future. Not so in America. It's a lost empire still intent on flexing its muscles through a belligerent military machine. 

So yes, I would love to experience life across the pond for a while. Preferably in one of the Scandinavian countries.


----------



## SiegendesLicht

Classical/instrumental music is a great thing, but it is not the most important thing in life. And one of the things I prefer about America is that, let's say, traditional values are still pretty strong in many places. 

PS. I would love to stay in Germany for a while, though, just walk the quaint old streets and listen to the beautiful German language all around me


----------



## jani

Move to Finland, you don't want move to Sweden because all Swedish men are like this,








Also i heard that guys with fancy make up burn churches in Norway.


----------



## violadude

Hahaha....isn't it funny how the two options with the highest results are European and no and North American and yes?....


----------



## Lenfer

violadude said:


> Hahaha....isn't it funny how the two options with the highest results are European and no and North American and yes?....


I think it's a classical music lover thing if *TC* was "_Talk Blues_" I think it would be the other way around (perhaps).


----------



## SiegendesLicht

Post deleted.


----------



## Mephistopheles

SiegendesLicht said:


> Something happened to my previous post, so I repeat it once more:
> 
> Classical/instrumental music is a wonderful thing, but not the most important thing in life. And one of the things I prefer about America is exactly the fact that a lot of its population still holds to the traditional, Judeo-Christian values. Plus, I'd rather not have my tax money to be used to support Asian and African immigrants who don't care about finding a job or learning the language of the country they live in, the way it happens in some European countries.


I saw your last post before whatever happened to it happened to it, and I must voice my admiration for how you have expanded your casual racism from the three countries you mentioned previously to the two continents that you mention now. Hats off to you. :tiphat:


----------



## jani

Hey Asians are cool people they work etc..., you mean the Gypsys and Somalian immigrants ( at least in here).


----------



## Crudblud

Sometimes I would rather live there for the sake of being on the same landmass of two of my very best friends, but I don't think it's worth all the hassle, I struggle enough living here.


----------



## Sid James

starthrower said:


> I hate the money grubbing, materialistic aspect of America. I just see things getting worse and worse as more and more dirty money floods the political system. Nobody in power gives a damn about the common good, or future generations.
> 
> It seems some of the small European countries can agree on a positive path to the future. Not so in America. It's a lost empire still intent on flexing its muscles through a belligerent military machine.
> 
> So yes, I would love to experience life across the pond for a while. Preferably in one of the Scandinavian countries.


I don't think either Europe or USA is good, tbh. Both have huge amounts of foreign debt. The other thing is in Europe, you got Germany bailing out a lot of the economies in trouble (eg. Greece & Spain). Its like a band aid solution. Won't hold forever. & as I said in my post earlier on this thread, the disturbing emergence of the far right in Continental Europe. The conditions don't seem that different from the Weimar years in Germany, between the wars. You got economic weakness. You got political instability. & also more nationalism in places its better kept at bay (Germany mainly).

Re the lack of concern for the common good, as you call it there, its similar in Europe. Politicians just get away with all they can. Unfortunately, Australia is getting sucked into this very partisan and 'us versus them' political discourse, even though both major parties are basically the same.

In terms of USA, I don't think its much better, but I don't follow their economy / politics as much as Europe's. Europes got this facade of civilisation (incl. classical music). But its no more than a smokescreen hiding some very ugly things. Maybe in USA, you get it more in your face, its more out in the open. In Europe, they cover it up with their 'picture postcard' type image. But look at the ghettos in the big French cities, for example, full of an underclass of discontented North AFrican people, and that's more 'real' than the Eiffel Tower or whatever. & its harder and harder for them to hide now.

But basically I think its trendy or easy to be anti-American. Not so anti-European.


----------



## Mephistopheles

Newsflash: I want to avoid exactly that kind of nationalistic egocentrism that allows "Europe" to be spoken about as though the word represents a single monolithic culture.


----------



## Sid James

Mephistopheles said:


> Newsflash: I want to avoid exactly that kind of nationalistic egocentrism that allows "Europe" to be spoken about as though the word represents a single monolithic culture.


Okay then, the EUropean Union is what I'm referring to. I think it will break up. The culture is not monolithic but this combination of various contries, which I see as artificial (and some predicted ages ago it would be a failure), now that's kind of monolithic, don't you think?

But its a topic for another thread. I was just countering all this anti-Americanism with a healthy dose of anti-European Unionism. Is that a good label?

So many things are owned across the EU by Germany anyway. Its like a German empire or something. & they're doing the bail outs as I said.


----------



## quack

I'm not sure the best way to defeat anti-something is anti-somethingelse. An eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind.


----------



## Mephistopheles

Sid James said:


> Okay then, the EUropean Union is what I'm referring to. I think it will break up. The culture is not monolithic but this combination of various contries, which I see as artificial (and some predicted ages ago it would be a failure), not that's kind of monolithic, don't you think.
> 
> But its a topic for another thread. I was just countering all this anti-Americanism with a healthy dose of anti-European Unionism. Is that a good label?
> 
> So many things are owned across the EU by Germany anyway. Its like a German empire or something. & they're doing the bail outs as I said.


The comment wasn't directed specifically at you (despite your generalisations  ), after all, it is the premise of the entire thread.

You are right to point out "Europe's" flaws so that we don't all get too romantic about the question, but I think you also step a little too close to _tu quoque_ - "Europe is bad too, so they both suck equally." In fact, I think the emergence of the far right in America is a little scarier (though unlikely to be successful) because it is, as some famous person I can't remember once said, "fascism wrapped in the flag." Save all the local, regional and state-level diversity of the U.S., it is a single nation and therefore does present a monolithic culture to the world, and having it headed by a mindless Mormon would put us all in peril. While there are elements of right-wing politics in Europe, probably actually exerting a greater influence because they're not quite so mental, they are counter-balanced by a huge variety of political opinion and, unlike America (land of extremes), a massive amount of moderation.

Just remember as well that the UK is probably the U.S.'s closest cousin, similarly offering the nation two apparently centre-right choices of governance, yet our conservative party is one that champions the integrity of a national health service (so long as it's running cost-effectively), perhaps dubiously bangs on about work ethic while nevertheless _never_ ruling out the entire impoverished underclass (far from it), and, on other social issues, the leader of the party, for example, sees gay marriage as _fundamental_ to the conservative agenda (he's for it "_because_" he's a conservative). Meanwhile, the U.S. "equivalent" brands nationalised health as some kind of communist ploy, the leader of the more conservative main party basically told 47% of Americans, those on state benefits, that they mean nothing to him, and gay people are still demonised beyond compare. Their supposedly liberal party is nowhere near as left-wing as our right-wing party.

You can point out the flaws in Europe and you can demonstrate the corruption of the political system (I detest many aspects of the UK's), but despite these flaws and the great deal of suffering that we must always remember, I think the governments over here are doing a far better job of serving citizens even if in a ham-fisted manner. And hell, if you narrow the comparison to America vs. Scandinavia, they're totally screwed.


----------



## drpraetorus

I would like to be able to visit more often. throw asia and Oz into that as well.


----------



## Sid James

Mephistopheles said:


> ... "Europe is bad too, so they both suck equally." ...


That's basically my position. I got more reasons, can go on, but I won't derail this thread further. Ultimately I'm a fence sitter and glad not to go anywhere near either Europe or the USA.


----------



## Mephistopheles

Sid James said:


> That's basically my position. I got more reasons, can go on, but I won't derail this thread further. Ultimately I'm a fence sitter and glad not to go anywhere near either Europe or the USA.


I admire Australia in some ways, but how your atheist prime minister can vote against gay marriage is more insane than Romney.


----------



## starthrower

Your comments make sense, Sid. After all, America was settled by Europeans, and they've been spreading bad karma on both sides of the pond for too long. 

I've heard it said that America has the best and worst of everything, but I think the worse is winning. What kind of healthy society squanders a trillion and a half dollars a year on military spending, allows 40 million people to go without health care, imports all of its clothes, shoes, building materials, etc. And graduates functional illiterates from its public schools? And ghettos? We've got thousands of them! And not just in the cities. There are trailer park ghettos all throughout the country side. There's lots of obesity too! Everybody's fat over here.


----------



## Sid James

^^I agree with both your points. Re (Mephistopheles) our current government, I am not a fan of them either, and its the same with most Australians. I think its the most unpopular government we've had since Australia became a Federation in 1901.


----------



## ComposerOfAvantGarde

I just don't like governments.


----------



## violadude

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> I just don't like governments.


And governments don't like you....or me.


----------



## Crudblud

I just want to govern mints.

Please, ladies and gentlemen, keep your seats.


----------



## Guest

Sid James said:


> Okay then, the EUropean Union is what I'm referring to. I think it will break up. The culture is not monolithic but this combination of various contries, which I see as artificial (and some predicted ages ago it would be a failure), now that's kind of monolithic, don't you think?
> 
> But its a topic for another thread. I was just countering all this anti-Americanism with a healthy dose of anti-European Unionism. Is that a good label?
> 
> So many things are owned across the EU by Germany anyway. Its like a German empire or something. & they're doing the bail outs as I said.


EU v USA: chalk and cheese. They're just not the same thing, whatever parallels there may be.

I'd ask couchie what he had in mind when referring to "Europe": was it mere geography, or was it art/culture? Alas he's not around. But "Europe" only exists as a geographical term and a political idea, not a homogeneous place.

I'd be interested to know whether a man (or woman) from Oregon regards the US as the same place as a man from Chicago.


----------



## moody

Mephistopheles said:


> Newsflash: I want to avoid exactly that kind of nationalistic egocentrism that allows "Europe" to be spoken about as though the word represents a single monolithic culture.


You're so right and we were never Europeans and most British people do not wish to be (leave aside the Scots but they've got an agenda). The quicker we have a vote on leaving the European Union the better,we were tricked into thinking we were joining a common market --a good idea--and found we were in a European Union--a very bad idea--the Germans and the French are not our friends and are seeking only the type of power they both failed to attain in the past.


----------



## moody

Sid James said:


> That's basically my position. I got more reasons, can go on, but I won't derail this thread further. Ultimately I'm a fence sitter and glad not to go anywhere near either Europe or the USA.


I'm sure that is a terrible loss to us all!


----------



## joen_cph

Sid James said:


> That's basically my position. I got more reasons, can go on, but I won't derail this thread further. Ultimately I'm a fence sitter and glad not to go anywhere near either Europe or the USA.


I think you have often expressed similar views. Have you ever been to Europe - and if yes, where and for how long ?


----------



## Cnote11

The absolute worst thing about America for me is the same thing SiegendesLicht happens to love it for. It is easy to be anti-American because 90% of this country is absolute rubbish. It isn't "trendy" without reason. I spent a few months in Scotland this past spring and summer and I find it to be FAR superior. Now, this isn't to say that places like Chicago and New York City aren't great places, but the majority of America is a wasteland. I'm going back to Scotland for 6 months this winter/spring/summer. After that, I'm coming back to America and moving to one of the major cities. This time next year I'll be able to make a definitive statement on whether I still want to move or not. 

Personally, I'd rather be in debt for trying to help people than be in debt because of people like Reagan.


----------



## Ukko

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> I just don't like governments.


Governments have a strong tendency to be _officious_. During my 'world travels' I have for the most part avoided interactions with governments. At home in the US the government refuses to just give me the benefits and otherwise leave me alone.

If I lived 'across the pond', I suspect that whatever government had jurisdiction would impinge on my happiness; so I'll stay here in Vermont, where I at least know most of the pitfalls.


----------



## pierrot

South American and no, as bad qualities as my country may have, is *my* country after all.


----------



## LordBlackudder

you pay really high prices to get a boring holiday with bad food and theres no girls.

i dont see the attraction to the USA at all when i live hours from venice, rome, prague, paris, south of france, malta, sicily, tuscany, london, amsterdam, krakow, berlin.

US has a canyon which is pretty cool. i don't see the deal with new york. it's the land of homeless people and a statue.

las vegas is disgusting.

whitehouse is cool but not worth the days of traveling and molestation by your customs officers.


----------



## jani

....'''..
There used to be a post on this spot but now
there is nothing to see here, please move along sir.


----------



## PetrB

Amercan; did live 'across the pond' - bypassing that island off the peninsula of Europe for Europe itself, and did live there eleven years or thereabouts. Still miss it, or more specifically, the general culture....


----------



## moody

LordBlackudder said:


> you pay really high prices to get a boring holiday with bad food and theres no girls.
> 
> i dont see the attraction to the USA at all when i live hours from venice, rome, prague, paris, south of france, malta, sicily, tuscany, london, amsterdam, krakow, berlin.
> 
> US has a canyon which is pretty cool. i don't see the deal with new york. it's the land of homeless people and a statue.
> 
> las vegas is disgusting.
> 
> whitehouse is cool but not worth the days of traveling and molestation by your customs officers.


I used to be there seven months of the year and I recognize little of what you've said. Have you seen the garbage that most Brits eat? You can get fantastic food in the USA,it's certainly not boring and I always found girls aplenty. Maybe it's you??


----------



## kv466

LordBlackudder said:


> whitehouse is cool but not worth the days of traveling and molestation by your customs officers.


*There must be more than this provincial life!*









Luckily, for those of us not afraid to do some simple travelling and exploration of this great world we live upon, there is much more out there to be enjoyed! Nice list of towns within an hour of you; been to all of them and they are lovely towns, indeed. They are only, however, a few among hundreds of thousands...

Have I ever wanted to live across the pond? A resounding, 'no, thank you'.


----------



## kv466

Cnote11 said:


> Personally, I'd rather be in debt for trying to help people than be in debt because of people like Reagan.


Well, why'd'ya go ahead and teach Ronnie how to forge your signature! It's easy to blame Ray Gun or anyone else but the truth is that you are in debt because of the Red, White and YOU.


----------



## Cnote11

kv466 said:


> Well, why'd'ya go ahead and teach Ronnie how to forge your signature! It's easy to blame Ray Gun or anyone else but the truth is that you are in debt because of the Red, White and YOU.


What are you even on about? I'm pretty positive I didn't create the American national debt.


----------



## kv466

I just find it very annoying and sad to read people's hatred toward a country they live in. If you don't like it, get the **** out.


----------



## Cnote11

You shouldn't talk about age correlating to any sort of intellect when you say things such as that. I wouldn't exactly count that as stellar logic and, if we're into generalising apparently, that comment doesn't surprise me coming from a southerner. 

As I said, I like pockets of America and I'm still willing to give it a chance. I'm terribly sorry that I have an opinion you don't like on the majority of the country. To be honest, I'd probably say the same thing about the majority of most countries. Excuse me for questioning my country. It appears free thought and criticism isn't often tolerated by American citizens. Oh my, what a surprise! You're right though, if I don't like growing religious presence in the government, if I don't like discriminatory policies against minorities, if I don't like open hatred of homosexuals in my country, if I don't like the fact that we're one of the only first world countries that do not supply health care for our citizens, if I don't like the anti-progressive mentality, then I should just shut up and "get the **** out". I'm sorry, but I will not embrace these things just because I happen to live here.


----------



## kv466

I didn't say I embraced any of the things you listed,...I just know that even the dumbest dog doesn't **** where he sleeps.


----------



## Ukko

Cnote11 said:


> What are you even on about? I'm pretty positive I didn't create the American national debt.


That free education you got must have been paid for by _somebody_.


----------



## Cnote11

If that is what criticism of your country amounts to in your opinion, then I feel quite bad for you. Many of the greatest revolutionary moments in history sprung forth from direct criticism of what you describe with your vulgarity. I'm allowed to freely and openly criticize these sects of American life if I wish to. The fact that you get hostile over that fact makes you seem like a nationalist zealot.


----------



## Cnote11

Hilltroll72 said:


> That free education you got must have been paid for by _somebody_.


In fact, _it is_. It is sponsored by donors and private profit. Last time I checked, it wasn't coming from the government.


----------



## Mephistopheles

kv466 said:


> I didn't say I embraced any of the things you listed,...I just know that even the dumbest dog doesn't **** where he sleeps.


But am I allowed to **** where I eat?


----------



## kv466

Yes,...yes, I suppose you are.


----------



## Mephistopheles

kv466 said:


> Yes,...yes, I suppose you are.


Yum!


----------



## Ukko

Cnote11 said:


> In fact, _it is_. It is sponsored by donors and private profit. Last time I checked, it wasn't coming from the government.


The dole you described back a ways (last winter?) read like a government thing to me; but then I _could_ have misread.


----------



## Cnote11

Hilltroll72 said:


> The dole you described back a ways (last winter?) read like a government thing to me; but then I _could_ have misread.


I've moved on, HillTroll. People do _move on_, you know? I've currently been accepted to several top ten universities in the nation and will probably be entering into one of the top research facilities in the world. Therefore, if I make good on my returns, you can always look at that government grant I received last year as an investment for America


----------



## Mephistopheles

Cnote11 said:


> I've moved on, HillTroll. People do _move on_, you know? I've currently been accepted to several top ten universities in the nation and will probably be entering into one of the top research facilities in the world. Therefore, if I make good on my returns, you can always look at that government grant I received last year as an investment for America


Watch out, kv. One day, this elitist is going to be in the White House commanding the CIA to go to your home and batter all your Gould CDs.


----------



## kv466

^^

I'm ready.


----------



## Cnote11

Mephistopheles said:


> Watch out, kv. One day, this elitist is going to be in the White House commanding the CIA to go to your home and batter all your Gould CDs.


I would never do such a thing to Gould albums. A ban on audio playback devices would suffice.


----------



## Chi_townPhilly

*I'll take a try at answering this question...*

... in the hopes of tacking the conversation back to the thread-header topic---

Tricky wording, this question- "do you ever wish you lived 'across the pond?'" Taken literally, I'd have to say "yes," because of that pesky word 'ever.' Oh, to be in England, with my Leadership teammate 'Jeremy Marchant' as my neighbor, or in the "Pays-Bas," a bicycle ride away from "jhar26," or in Southern Scandinavia, a Ferry-Boat journey away from our Site Owner himself, Frederik Magle!

Still, I'm happy with the USA. I'm happy with my life, my job, the area where I live, and *most importantly* my wife. This keeps me from thinking the grass is greener, while still acknowledging the wonders of other lands...


----------



## Ukko

Cnote11 said:


> I've moved on, HillTroll. People do _move on_, you know? I've currently been accepted to several top ten universities in the nation and will probably be entering into one of the top research facilities in the world. Therefore, if I make good on my returns, you can always look at that government grant I received last year as an investment for America


My best wishes for your success. Dunno about the 'moved on' thingy though.


----------



## moody

Mephistopheles said:


> Watch out, kv. One day, this elitist is going to be in the White House commanding the CIA to go to your home and batter all your Gould CDs.


Well I'm glad somebody is going to do the job.


----------



## Ukko

moody said:


> Well I'm glad somebody is going to do the job.


If the jackboots are again 'on the march', and there is sufficient warning, _and_ if I have still enough life left, I'll go and help man the barricades.

:tiphat:


----------



## moody

Hilltroll72 said:


> If the jackboots are again 'on the march', and there is sufficient warning, _and_ if I have still enough life left, I'll go and help man the barricades.
> 
> :tiphat:


Can you still see well enough to shoot?


----------



## Ukko

moody said:


> Can you still see well enough to shoot?


Yep. Recently had the cataracts removed, which also means that new lenses were installed; I see pretty good. Anyway, those jackboots are usually polished to a high gloss. One just aims three feet above the shine.


----------



## Flamme

Would like to go but not sure if US or Canada...Or maybe even some South american state like Chile...


----------



## Vaneyes

Only, if it would have meant meeting L'enfer.


----------



## violadude

Vaneyes said:


> Only, if it would have meant meeting L'enfer.











.........


----------



## Novelette

I lived in Northern Germany for a few months, and traveled extensively throughout the European continent.

I could happily live somewhere in the north, in the countryside. I especially love Scotland, Denmark, Norway, Sweden, Austria, and Switzerland. Of European cities, I am most fond of Wien and Copenhagen--although I am very much a person who prefers small towns.

As for the US, I am particularly fond of Vermont, New Hampshire, Maine, and coastal Maryland. Add Oregon, Washington State, and Colorado. Why, I frequently ask myself, do I live in Florida?


----------



## Ryan

I've lived in USA and UK and I can tell you the main difference, is one of them gives you a phone call.


----------



## violadude

Ryan said:


> I've lived in USA and UK and I can tell you the main difference, is one of them gives you a phone call.


Which one?


----------



## deggial

I've lived in both as well, but I haven't as yet tallied which one calls you more often  a thought for the "strange goals" thread?


----------



## deggial

Novelette said:


> Why, I frequently ask myself, do I live in Florida?


remember the guy with the sinkhole in his bedroom? run!!!


----------



## EricABQ

I'm good with living in the U.S, but I like where I live. I plan on retiring somewhere else, but Albuquerque is fine for now. Of course, there are places in the U.S you couldn't pay me to live. It all depends on where you end up, it's a big country. 

I would not like to move permanently to another country, but I would like to see more of the world. I saw parts of Asia while in the Navy, but I've never been to Europe. A trip like that has just never fit into the budget.


----------



## BlazeGlory

Ryan said:


> I've lived in USA and UK and I can tell you the main difference, is one of them gives you a phone call.


I'm guessing Dzhohkhar Tsarnaev didn't get a phone call.


----------



## Novelette

deggial said:


> remember the guy with the sinkhole in his bedroom? run!!!


Poor guy, the perils of living in a huge karst geological zone.


----------



## Tristan

I love California, don't get me wrong, but I definitely intend to spend a good amount of time in Europe. Both of my parents were born there and my sister's probably going to go to graduate school there.


----------



## Ryan

violadude said:


> Which one?


The USA give you a phone call, so you can make bail


----------



## Ingélou

I'd echo so many of the posts above; live this side of the pond, but go visiting on the other. 
I'm happy to stay in England because I love English, Scottish, Welsh & Irish culture, and it's so near to France too, the home of Messieurs Lully & Rebel, with the sexiest language in the whole world. ('Every man has two countries - his own, and France!' - Alexandre Dumas.) 
But I'm fond of a lot of bits of American culture, from Star Trek to Laura Ingalls Wilder, and I wouldn't mind spending a few months in the States; preferably a few months that would include New England in the Fall.


----------



## Novelette

Ingenue said:


> I'd echo so many of the posts above; live this side of the pond, but go visiting on the other.
> I'm happy to stay in England because I love English, Scottish, Welsh & Irish culture, and it's so near to France too, the home of Messieurs Lully & Rebel, with the sexiest language in the whole world. ('Every man has two countries - his own, and France!' - Alexandre Dumas.)
> But I'm fond of a lot of bits of American culture, from Star Trek to Laura Ingalls Wilder, and I wouldn't mind spending a few months in the States; preferably a few months that would include New England in the Fall.


Scotland remains one of my favorite places in the world. There are few finer things than walking the beach of Ayr in February, or hiking Rannoch Moor in the bleakness of winter while listening to Beethoven's Welsh and Scottich folksong settings. It gives me chills just remembering it.


----------



## Ingélou

Rannoch Moor! Yes, one of my favourite places in all Scotland, and the clan country of my ancestors. I think I will accept you as an honorary clan member, Novelette. You have excellent taste!


----------



## cwarchc

Ingenue said:


> Rannoch Moor! Yes, one of my favourite places in all Scotland, and the clan country of my ancestors. I think I will accept you as an honorary clan member, Novelette. You have excellent taste!


I'll be going over the moor in a few weeks.
Off to Arasaig in June.


----------



## Kieran

Yeah, I often wished I lived in New York. I love the place...


----------



## Novelette

Ingenue said:


> Rannoch Moor! Yes, one of my favourite places in all Scotland, and the clan country of my ancestors. I think I will accept you as an honorary clan member, Novelette. You have excellent taste!


I love it up there. My ancestry is almost exclusively Northern English and Scottish; granted, that was 400 years ago. You never know, we may well be related! When I was in Scotland, I felt as though, at long last, I had come home. =D


----------



## SiegendesLicht

SiegendesLicht said:


> I would love to live in the US (preferbaly in Colorado, Alaska, Washington or any other state where there is real winter) and be able to visit Germany, the UK and the Scandinavian countries once in a while. There are many things about the culture of those countries that I admire: architecture, history, languages and of course music, *but for everyday life, working, shopping, having a family and raising kids the USA is a far more convenient place.*


I wrote that almost two years ago, now this opinion of mine has made a complete roundabout.


----------



## brotagonist

My ancestry is German and I am a dual national. I moved to Germany in the mid-'90s and returned to Canada in the early '00s. It was a necessary experience for me, as being German is an integral part of my identity. I was born in Canada and this is my home. I certainly love Europe, the historical sites and cities, Berlin in particular, where I spent so much time, the hustle and bustle of life there, etc., and I find it exciting to visit. Berlin is like a second home to me. I love that city and I felt a certain similarity to my home city, in that it is located at the same latitude, hence the vegetation of the area and seasons are somewhat similar. Also, it is always refreshing to hear people pronouncing my name correctly without coaching :lol: Nevertheless, the open spaces, natural environment and freedom of a less spoiled land are in my soul and I could not be in crowded, polluted Europe permanently.


----------



## clara s

brotagonist said:


> My ancestry is German and I am a dual national. I moved to Germany in the mid-'90s and returned to Canada in the early '00s. It was a necessary experience for me, as being German is an integral part of my identity. I was born in Canada and this is my home. I certainly love Europe, the historical sites and cities, Berlin in particular, where I spent so much time, the hustle and bustle of life there, etc., and I find it exciting to visit. Berlin is like a second home to me. I love that city and I felt a certain similarity to my home city, in that it is located at the same latitude, hence the vegetation of the area and seasons are somewhat similar. Also, it is always refreshing to hear people pronouncing my name correctly without coaching :lol: Nevertheless, the open spaces, natural environment and freedom of a less spoiled land are in my soul and I could not be in crowded, polluted Europe permanently.


you seem to be confused 

well, home is where the heart is...

I had 1-2 offers to go to Calgary, but the winter must be very hard


----------



## senza sordino

Interesting question for me.

I was born in England, now I live here in Canada. I've lived on both sides of the pond. 

I've thought about retiring in England. But for now I'll stay here. 

When I return to England, it doesn't feel foreign but it doesn't feel like home.


----------



## QuietGuy

Klavierspieler said:


> Wish I lived? No.
> 
> Like to visit? Yes.


I agree with Klavierspieler.


----------



## brotagonist

clara s said:


> you seem to be confused


No, not even one bit :tiphat:



clara s said:


> well, home is where the heart is...


Das stimmt. C'est vrai.



clara s said:


> I had 1-2 offers to go to Calgary, but the winter must be very hard


It is, but there are frequent Chinooks (warm southwesterly winds) that can cause temperature changes of more than 30°C in a matter of hours, so relief, even if short, is typically only days away. Southern Alberta is the only area I am aware of that is thusly blessed.


----------



## Morimur

Kevin Pearson said:


> Unfortunately the U.S. generally follows Europe's self-destructive trends but thankfully we're about 50 years behind so our death will be a little slower.


Arguable. In a few decades Hollywood has done more to corrupt and destroy the human soul than anything you'd care to name. WE'RE NO.1! USA! USA! USA!...


----------



## SiegendesLicht

brotagonist said:


> Nevertheless, the open spaces, natural environment and freedom of a less spoiled land are in my soul and I could not be in crowded, polluted Europe permanently.


I spent a year living in Chicago and Oklahoma City, and go to Germany (mostly the north, Hamburg and the area) for a week or two whenever I can get a leave from work. I have found much more open spaces and freedom in the latter than in the stone jungle of Chicago or Oklahoman suburbia. There is plenty of greenery, parks and quiet places in Hamburg where you can be all alone right in the middle of the city without the need to drive for a couple of hours to get away. Of course there are great national parks in the US, but within the German-speaking world you can find all the same things (with the exception of the Grand Canyon maybe): mountains and forests and sea beaches and waterfalls (though maybe the Rheinfall is a bit smaller than the Niagara). Plus, in Hamburg you can get just about anywhere by public transportation or on a bike, whereas in the US you have to own a car in order to get anywhere besides the nearest supermarket. And which city is going to be more polluted - the one full of people on bikes and in the underground or the one full of cars and traffic jams?

When I was a bit younger (four years younger actually) and living in America, I enjoyed the stone jungle, the hectic pace of life, the eternal drive, but now I have grown to love the peaceful, quiet, idyllic _Norddeutschland_ more. Actually I would even enjoy living in a suburg of Hamburg, in a small house among the pine trees.


----------



## violadude

So...can we conclude from the poll that North Americans are less happy with where they live than Europeans?


----------



## Morimur

violadude said:


> So...can we conclude from the poll that North Americans are less happy with where they live than Europeans?


Well, the Germans have more leisure time than Americans (they work less hours). Does that mean they're happier? Who knows, but I could sure use a vacation.


----------



## Blake

So many people unhappy with the U.S. But I thought it was the land of the free, right?


----------



## Norse

Despite my lukewarm statement earlier in this thread, it is now a goal of mine to visit New York within a couple of years.


----------



## Morimur

Vesuvius said:


> So many people unhappy with the U.S. But I thought it was the land of the free, right?


...Living the American Dream, brother.


----------



## SiegendesLicht

Vesuvius said:


> So many people unhappy with the U.S. But I thought it was the land of the free, right?


It's a good place, it's just irritating when some Americans think America is the only country on Earth where you can live a good life and be happy. I used to think that too, now I know better.


----------



## BensonhoistLesbianChoir

European and no! I love Europe and I wouldn't enjoy living "across the pond"... However, I do wish I could spend some time (a few months) in specific areas of the US; New York to be exact. Brooklyn, Coney Island, Staten Island, Long Island... Such beautiful places, that also have a sentimental value to me. I think Brooklyn is the most beautiful place in America, and one of the most beautiful places in the world.


----------



## Svelte Silhouette

BensonhoistLesbianChoir said:


> European and no! I love Europe and I wouldn't enjoy living "across the pond"... However, I do wish I could spend some time (a few months) in specific areas of the US; New York to be exact. Brooklyn, Coney Island, Staten Island, Long Island... Such beautiful places, that also have a sentimental value to me. I think Brooklyn is the most beautiful place in America, and one of the most beautiful places in the world.


 Visit the West Coast more and you may think differently, as one Dual Nationality soul can bear witness whilst never 'losing even a wink of sleep' whichever side of the big pond they happen to be on, as there is beauty everywhere (albeit though it's easier to get to within the UK's 'compact confines' if only it weren't so inclement 'weatherwise' at times) ;-)


----------



## Stargazer

I live in America, but I think I would really like to live in Europe (although I've never been). I get the impression that Europeans just know how to appreciate life more! I had a friend who worked over there for a few years. He was doing the same job as over here, but he said that in Europe people would show up at work around 9, leave at 3 or 4, take a few breaks in between...AND had 40 days of vacation on top of that. Whereas in the US, you're lucky if you're only working a 40 hour week, and you're even luckier if you get even 2 weeks of vacation. 

I also feel like Europe has so much more culture and history in such a small area. Not to mention, from everything I've heard the healthcare systems over there sound quite a bit better than ours . Then again, I've had the experience of paying close to $10,000 (after insurance) for a doctor to tell me "I don't know what's wrong but it's probably nothing", so I'm a bit jaded in that regard.


----------



## Figleaf

I still live in insecure, socially divided, Tory Britain. It doesn't feel foreign but it doesn't feel like home any more!


----------



## hpowders

I wish I had a flat in Vienna so I could attend the VSO and VPO, but I would also keep my house in the US. Six months "there" and six months "here".

I want it all!!! 

Splitting the time between both locations wasn't an option, so I couldn't vote.


----------



## Morimur

hpowders said:


> I wish I had a flat in Vienna so I could attend the VSO and VPO, but I would also keep my house in the US. Six months "there" and six months "here".
> 
> I want it all!!!
> 
> Splitting the time between both locations wasn't an option, so I couldn't vote.


Time to buy another Château, hpowders.


----------



## hpowders

Lope de Aguirre said:


> Time to buy another Château, hpowders.


From your mouth to the Force's ears.

Even Avatar Lenny is giving me that "Are you insane???" look of complete disapproval.

Easy for him! He made more conducting a Mahler symphony than I do for each post on TC.
You heard it here first.


----------



## PabloElFlamenco

Phew (an expired mouthful of hot air)! Forums have a propensity of having people stepping out of their line to make brash statements. 

I've lived on "both" sides of the pond, I'm a Belgian, lived in Belgium, Germany, then at age 13 moved to El Paso (TX) thereafter to a wintry wet windy Ostend (in Belgium) for two months (what a contrast with West Texas!) and then to the DC area (lived in both Virginia and Maryland), left the USA in 1967 and thereafter lived in Belgium, Germany and now (only during weekdays) in the Netherlands. I speak five languages and my "imaginary" world is Spain, which I've visited quite a few times but never for any long period of time at all. Reading Spanish literature and history is my artificial world. You will note I consider "the pond" to be, only, the Atlantic Ocean. I've travelled (mostly for work) to many African countries, to South-East Asia, Saudi Arabia and visited Argentina and Chile.

Would I like to live accross the pond? I guess not. Been there. 

I like America but, even if I might have no "property rights" to this emotion, I'm disappointed in many aspects of that Nation. All too often, I feel the American mindset to be grossly primitive (not that European binge-drinkers be any better, mind you). I employ the word "Nation" exactly for what it means. There is no European Nation. Alas. I'm a European federalist, but it won't ever happen. We Europeans are far too busy with our little individual bellybuttons to have a broader project. Europe will not be because the individual countries (some of them could be called Nations) never wanted it to be: they wanted a "French" Europe, not a "European Europe". I feel a great deal of empathy for Greeks, Portuguese, Spanish, Germans, Dutch. You see: I omitted Belgians! Because I do not "feel" the Belgian Nation, whose only temporary reason for existance may be their football (soccer) team in Brazil.

All in all, culturally, I'm rather satisfied; perhaps snugly so. I don't feel there is a loss of morality in Europe. People need to be free and government must create the possibilities for them to be free. Freedom includes religion, non-religion and all the rest, without the slightest form of imposition. ("Il est interdit d'interdire") Of course there are great discussions about who's to pay the bills. That's politics, and the discussion will never, never end. The haves and the have-nots. Ecology will decide for us: mankind is too complacent to make the proper decisions (Jefferson Starship "doesn't mean **** to a tree"). 
External influences have toppled more than one empire.

Sorry for all the rambling. I find comfort in classical music and literature: both are not intimately related to where I am at any given moment.

I respectfully greet all forum members...
Paul


----------



## Jos

PabloElFlamenco said:


> Because I do not "feel" the Belgian Nation, whose only temporary reason for existance may be their football (soccer) team in Brazil.


And the Red Devils are doing okay, from what I've seen earlier this week ! 

We will never be one here in Europe, neighbor Paul, but I sure do like your country, and visit often. Diversity, spice of life and all that. Europe a federal state ? No way ! Cooperation and common goals in economics, defense etc ? Yes !

Cheers, 
Jos


----------



## Jos

hpowders said:


> I wish I had a flat in Vienna


The TC couchsurfinggroup in the making ! :lol:

Too bad my city is not known for its attractiveness to tourists........q

Cheers,
Jos


----------



## Varick

superhorn said:


> I love America , but I am serioulsy worried about its future . The republican party is a threat to this country because it's been taken over by a bunch of ignorant,inbred Hillbilly Bible-thumping idiots and ignoramuses who want to turn America into an evangelical Christian theocracy which would be little better than the Islamic theocracies in Iran Saudi Arabia and elsewhere in the middle east .
> 
> I'm not anti-christian and don't hate Christians in general. I have no problem with Christians who are sane,rational and tolerant people. But unforunately, there don't seem to be many of them left in America.
> 
> Republicans are also mostly opposed to government funding for the arts, and if they got their way, they would abolish the National Endowment for the Arts , and this could be disastporus for our many wonderful orchestras an d opera companies, which are already having a difficult enough time.
> 
> At least in Europe, people value their orchestras and opera companies and nobody objects ot government support for them, unlike the ignorant philistines in the republican party and so many other conservatives here.


I love American, but am seriously worried about it's future. The Democratic party is a threat to this country because it's been taken over by a bunch ignorant, smug, holier-than-thou yet purely secular, idiots and ignoramuses who want to turn American into Karl Marx's wet dream of a nation which would be little better than any of the other totalitarian, dictatorial, hell-holes that have completely failed and created the greatest murderous regimes in all of human history in ONLY 100 years!

I'm not anti-athiest and I don't hate athiests and secularists in general. I have no problem with athiests and secularists who are sane, rational, and tolerant people, but unfortunately, there don't seem to be many of them left in America.

Democrats are also mostly opposed to smaller government, and if they got their way, they would expand gov't services of all kinds to infiltrate and control almost every single aspect of our daily lives. They've already supported companies firing (forced resignation) employees for a particular political view and donation to a political cause (that the majority of a state voted FOR)[See the forced resignation of the CEO of Mozilla Firefox].

At least in Europe, there are a few countries finally waking up to the fact that the welfare state of taking care of people from cradle to the grave is a completely irresponsible, unattainable, and utterly unsustainable policy that will lead to bankruptcy and far more pain, unemployment, lower quality of life, and national financial collapse, unlike the ignorant utopian-desiring philistines in the democratic party and so many other leftists here.

V


----------



## Blancrocher

Novelette said:


> I lived in Northern Germany for a few months, and traveled extensively throughout the European continent.
> 
> I could happily live somewhere in the north, in the countryside. I especially love Scotland, Denmark, Norway, Sweden, Austria, and Switzerland. Of European cities, I am most fond of Wien and Copenhagen--although I am very much a person who prefers small towns.
> 
> As for the US, I am particularly fond of Vermont, New Hampshire, Maine, and coastal Maryland. Add Oregon, Washington State, and Colorado. Why, I frequently ask myself, do I live in Florida?


I suggest you ask yourself this question during the winter! :lol:


----------



## Varick

I have traveled all over Europe, been to Japan, and three countries in S. America (mostly for work) and loved it, and I plan on doing more traveling throughout all those places (but for pleasure). It is an absolute joy to visit all these places, experience different cultures, history, peoples, foods, etc.

There are pluses and minuses to everyplace. I wish the USA had the sense of culture and cultural education of Europe, the warmth, hospitality, and passion of South America, and the pride of workmanship and precision of Japan (to name only a few virtues of each place). Travel is the greatest education that anyone could ever have and is the greatest enemy of bigotry.

But alas, I'm glad I live here in the USA where I am more of the captain of my ship than probably anywhere else in the world. The success of me and my business is mostly up to me (although it is becoming less and less so and increasingly up to bureaucratic lawmakers who have no clue on how to run a business or what it takes to keep one running and growing).

However, I eventually want to move out of the Tri-State area rat race. There is no bigger marketplace to grow my business in the country due to dense population with a dense amount of wealth, but it is also one of the most expensive places to live in the country. I want my 20 (or more) acres of land perhaps in Virginia (I'd live to go to Vermont or New Hampshire but I already have enough winter. I don't mind winter, but I certainly don't want MORE winter) where I can build my barn (for my woodshop), use all the wood for my fireplaces and wood burning stoves right off my own land, and hunt and grow my own food on my own land.

This is my dream and it's still here in the USA. Of course with frequent visits "across the pond" and other continents.

V


----------



## Guest

Figleaf said:


> I still live in insecure, socially divided, Tory Britain. It doesn't feel foreign but it doesn't feel like home any more!


 I hope Scotland votes for independence...and then accepts English people as immigrants...

...but they probably wouldn't!!


----------



## Guest

PabloElFlamenco said:


> I omitted Belgians! Because I do not "feel" the Belgian Nation, whose only temporary reason for existance may be their football (soccer) team in Brazil.
> Paul


Nonsense! Where would the world be without Trappist beers!!!


----------



## Morimur

Europe? What's that? 

USA!USA!USA!USA!USA!USA!...


----------



## Huilunsoittaja

Europe is nice in small doses. Studying abroad may be the longest I would ever be there. Sure, I would miss it afterwards, but when it really comes down to it, I enjoy my life here in the US very much, especially my career-enhancing opportunities. Even though Europe is great with its support of classical music and all, I feel that US is more hands-on when it comes to music, for example the existence of bands and orchestras in many public schools. They can be major social and community assets in schools and towns.


----------



## Morimur

Huilunsoittaja said:


> Europe is nice in small doses. Studying abroad may be the longest I would ever be there. Sure, I would miss it afterwards, but when it really comes down to it, I enjoy my life here in the US very much, especially my career-enhancing opportunities. Even though Europe is great with its support of classical music and all, I feel that US is more hands-on when it comes to music, for example the existence of bands and orchestras in many public schools. They can be major social and community assets in schools and towns.


Too bad some of these students have taken a liking to bringing automatic assault weapons to school. Never a dull moment in America. But at least we've got music!


----------



## ptr

Yes I have considered living (and have tried) both sides of the Atlantic, and deduction led me to settle on the "right*" side as I feel that the general terms of "social security" (including medicine) is more to my liking on this side. (Love New York, have relatives in Manchester and Boston, spent 18 months @ collage in the greater San Francisco area and made some of the best friends in my life there! People I still talk to once a week 30 years later!)

But for me the braking point is; a society where one has to armour oneself to feel safe is slightly to "barbaric" for my taste (Yes in very general terms, I know), even if it harbours 9 of the 8 other wonders of humanity..

/ptr

*Standing mid North Atlantic with one's nose heading north...


----------



## PabloElFlamenco

gog said:


> Nonsense! Where would the world be without Trappist beers!!!


Thanks gog: your remark kindly reminds me of "seeing the straw in anothers' eye and failing to perceive the two by four in your own" ... Trappist is great beer, even if diabetes bars the door for me, which is not, in itself a problem, because there is ...(dry)wine.


----------



## PabloElFlamenco

Jos said:


> And the Red Devils are doing okay, from what I've seen earlier this week !
> 
> We will never be one here in Europe, neighbor Paul, but I sure do like your country, and visit often. Diversity, spice of life and all that. Europe a federal state ? No way ! Cooperation and common goals in economics, defense etc ? Yes !
> 
> Cheers,
> Jos


Thanks Jos, I thought you might note that, when I was listening on radio, alone at "home" in Breda, NL, to Belgium playing against Algeria, I felt very Belgian indeed: small heart whilst "losing" that first half, joy at winning in the end: we are such a small place. In many ways I envy the Netherlands, their built-in victorious attitude (even when, at times, unjustified), their extraverted king. I suppose we all have our limits and the art is in recognizing and ... outgrowing ... them.
Paul


----------



## Wood

Varick said:


> I love American, but am seriously worried about it's future. The Democratic party is a threat to this country because it's been taken over by a bunch ignorant, smug, holier-than-thou yet purely secular, idiots and ignoramuses who want to turn American into Karl Marx's wet dream of a nation which would be little better than any of the other totalitarian, dictatorial, hell-holes that have completely failed and created the greatest murderous regimes in all of human history in ONLY 100 years!


Democrats are Marxists.



> I'm not anti-athiest and I don't hate athiests and secularists in general. I have no problem with athiests and secularists who are sane, rational, and tolerant people, but unfortunately, there don't seem to be many of them left in America.


Atheists are mostly insane, irrational and intolerant.



> At least in Europe, there are a few countries finally waking up to the fact that the welfare state of taking care of people from cradle to the grave is a completely irresponsible, unattainable, and utterly unsustainable policy that will lead to bankruptcy and far more pain, unemployment, lower quality of life, and national financial collapse, unlike the ignorant utopian-desiring philistines in the democratic party and so many other leftists here.
> 
> V


I'm like, WOW!!!


----------



## SiegendesLicht

ptr said:


> But for me the braking point is; a society where one has to armour oneself to feel safe is slightly to "barbaric" for my taste (Yes in very general terms, I know), even if it harbours 9 of the 8 other wonders of humanity


One of the biggest fears I have for the future is that at the time my children or grandchildren will live in Europe, it will become a place where one has to defend oneself, both individually and as nations, in order to live. There are powers in the world that hate everything Europe stands for, growing stronger with each day. Soon there might not be any room for music or for the enjoyment of nature any more, the way things are going. And I am not sure if by that time Europeans will have the courage and the will for self-defense.

Maybe I am being too pessimistic, but it seems that if Germany was invaded tomorrow, these people would just lie down and die rather than have to use violence to defend themselves


----------



## Wood

SiegendesLicht said:


> One of the biggest fears I have for the future is that at the time my children or grandchildren will live in Europe, it will become a place where one has to defend oneself, both individually and as nations, in order to live. There are powers in the world that hate everything Europe stands for, growing stronger with each day. Soon there might not be any room for music or for the enjoyment of nature any more, the way things are going. And I am not sure if by that time Europeans will have the courage and the will for self-defense.
> 
> Maybe I am being too pessimistic, but it seems that if Germany was invaded tomorrow, these people would just lie down and die rather than have to use violence to defend themselves


Don't worry, there isn't a credible threat to Europe. It is exaggerated so that our leaders can increase their control over us.


----------



## ptr

SiegendesLicht said:


> Maybe I am being too pessimistic, but it seems that if Germany was invaded tomorrow, these people would just lie down and die rather than have to use violence to defend themselves


Are You saying that Mr Lukashenko and Mr Putin are finely mounting their Black bears after years of planing an invasion of the west?

There will always be zealots plotting for an overturn of peace, but I think that You are giving them more credit then is due, I'm sure that there are similar dark forces all over the world, that is no reason for joe average to arm himself! And there will always be people who are blind to the fact that, the more arms there are in circulation the more violent the society is!

/ptr


----------



## SiegendesLicht

ptr said:


> Are You saying that Mr Lukashenko and Mr Putin are finely mounting their Black bears after years of planing an invasion of the west?


I wouldn't worry about the first one. The only things that collective farm manager is capable of are bragging and bringing his own nation to economic ruin.


----------



## Piwikiwi

Wood said:


> Democrats are Marxists.


lol democrats are considered to be right wing in most of Europe.



> Atheists are mostly insane, irrational and intolerant.


Lol whut?


----------



## Piwikiwi

Varick said:


> At least in Europe, there are a few countries finally waking up to the fact that the welfare state of taking care of people from cradle to the grave is a completely irresponsible, unattainable, and utterly unsustainable policy that will lead to bankruptcy and far more pain, unemployment, lower quality of life, and national financial collapse, unlike the ignorant utopian-desiring philistines in the democratic party and so many other leftists here.
> 
> V


Can you name those countries please?


----------



## Guest

Wood said:


> Democrats are Marxists.
> 
> Atheists are mostly insane, irrational and intolerant.


Subtle, percipient and refined analysis...

Do you work for the mainstream media?


----------



## Wood

Piwikiwi said:


> Can you name those countries please?


I doubt he can, though I live in one. Of course, whether those countries are right or not is another issue...


----------



## Wood

MacLeod said:


> Subtle, percipient and refined analysis...
> 
> Do you work for the mainstream media?


Thanks.

No, my tongue is merely stuck in my cheek not up Murdoch's xxxx


----------



## Wood

Piwikiwi said:


> lol democrats are considered to be right wing in most of Europe.
> 
> Lol whut?


Don't tell me, tell Varick!!!


----------



## Varick

Piwikiwi said:


> Can you name those countries please?


The Chancellor of Germany and the French President both warned President Obama that he should not push the ACA (Affordable Care Act) because socialized medicine is much too costly and it is a severely flawed system.

England *suggested* that college students should pay for *part* of their tuition and there were riots in the streets.

France suggested raising the retirement age by *two whole years* (the horrors!) and there were marches, demonstrations and riots in the streets. Those are just a few stories of some of the countries who are starting to realize. Whether or not they will actually be able to make the changes is a completely different story.

Those stories also confirm a theory I've had for years: When you give people something either for free, or it is perceived as free, it just may be more difficult to give those things up than a heroin addict giving up heroin.

But the bigger point here which makes me LMAO is that my post was mostly a tongue-in-cheek parody of Superhorn's post and some of the ridiculous statements and insinuations in that post, yet...

... no one called Superhorn out on any of his/her points but they only called me out on my parody of Superhorn's post. I just find it funny, that's all.

V


----------



## Piwikiwi

Varick said:


> The Chancellor of Germany and the French President both warned President Obama that he should not push the ACA (Affordable Care Act) because socialized medicine is much too costly and it is a severely flawed system.
> 
> England *suggested* that college students should pay for *part* of their tuition and there were riots in the streets.
> 
> France suggested raising the retirement age by *two whole years* (the horrors!) and there were marches, demonstrations and riots in the streets. Those are just a few stories of some of the countries who are starting to realize. Whether or not they will actually be able to make the changes is a completely different story.
> 
> Those stories also confirm a theory I've had for years: When you give people something either for free, or it is perceived as free, it just may be more difficult to give those things up than a heroin addict giving up heroin.
> 
> But the bigger point here which makes me LMAO is that my post was mostly a tongue-in-cheek parody of Superhorn's post and some of the ridiculous statements and insinuations in that post, yet...
> 
> ... no one called Superhorn out on any of his/her points but they only called me out on my parody of Superhorn's post. I just find it funny, that's all.
> 
> V


Can you provide sources for your first statement?


----------



## Richannes Wrahms

I care too much about opportunities for everyone in terms of human rights like *education* and *medicine*. So I guess the U.S. is not for me. Sadly, it seems that Europe is also deteriorating as irrational old laws (say anti-specific harmless group laws, pro-superstition laws, the idea that a proper education is 'not for everyone'...) are starting to regain acceptance in certain powerful circles.

and if you are wondering, I don't believe in communism or anarchy as every political experiment with it has ended in great failure


----------



## Varick

Piwikiwi said:


> Can you provide sources for your first statement?


I remember reading it in the Wall Street Journal some years ago. What date it was, I have no idea. I read many papers (usually online) and magazine articles weekly. I'm surprised I remember it was the WSJ.

V


----------



## ComposerOfAvantGarde

Europe is still more desirable and I am not surprised


----------



## SalieriIsInnocent

I wish I lived in a different time or a different world sometimes. I feel like I don't belong in modern society.


----------



## ComposerOfAvantGarde

You know....I really would like to live in Canada. Cuba might be a second option at the moment.


----------



## Wood

Varick said:


> But the bigger point here which makes me LMAO is that my post was mostly a tongue-in-cheek parody of Superhorn's post and some of the ridiculous statements and insinuations in that post, yet...
> 
> ... no one called Superhorn out on any of his/her points but they only called me out on my parody of Superhorn's post. I just find it funny, that's all.
> 
> V


You wrote what you wrote, there is no point whinnying if we took it at face value!


----------



## ComposerOfAvantGarde

SalieriIsInnocent said:


> I wish I lived in a different time or a different world sometimes. I feel like I don't belong in modern society.


The future is always coming! And HOPEFULLY people don't screw it up as muc. 

I am really looking forward to a better future for the country I live in (Australia). It's an embarrassing and tragic fact that out current prime minister is quite enjoying setting up situations for the some of the most vulnerable people in the world to get locked up and in at least one publicised case, murdered. I say that any "leader" who willingly creates situations for the oppressed to die in and then convinces the majority of their country that it's the right thing to do is just as evil as Hitler no matter what the numbers are.


----------



## Varick

Wood said:


> You wrote what you wrote, there is no point whinnying if we took it at face value!


No whinnying here because I'm not a horse. Just pointing out the double standard and my amusement at it.

V


----------

