# What composers can learn from Mahler and his orchestration



## Downbeat

I am interested in composition, and would love to have the time to do more of it. This morning I was listening to Mahler's second symphony and marvelled at how he uses arrangement, colour and arquitecture in his orchestration. Most of all, I wonder how he manages to get all instruments heard no matter how heavy the orchestration gets. I would love to hear insights or opinions as to how Mahler achieves this from a composer's standpoint.


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## kv466

I'm actually quite curious to see what develops from this. Where is DM when you need him?!


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## PetrB

Mahler was first a conductor, and fully employed season after season (mainly in opera) for many years. He had an intimate first hand knowledge -- and much practiced familiarity -- with instruments, their innate qualities, and how those would balance in any mix at any dynamic.

Much of the ability you are asking about also includes knowing what ranges each instrument "speaks in" most plainly, that is their purest and least problematical area. Every instrument has problematic areas, most especially winds and brass, and though most expert players have ironed out almost all differences, what key area and what part of the register the instrument is playing in are critical to their being clearly heard through any sort of mix.

Winds and horns, in this particular range or that and certain keys, will sound more 'clarion call,' in any dynamic. Mahler's placement of material for instruments, in a particular range, plus meticulous dynamic markings in the score -- this player unmarked (i.e. the standard _mf_, another forte, yet another playing at the same time marked mp -- all collaborate to achieve the means of that clarity of all parts. This is no mean feat, and takes a true expert, i.e. knowing and very experienced, and with intelligence (and I believe that elusive thing called "talent") to achieve.

It seems Mahler wrote very little music prior those first songs, many of which were first for voice and piano. When he later arranged these for (originally) chamber orchestra, these are shining examples of "how to orchestrate from a piano part."

It seems, rather wondrously, that Mahler had the gift from nearly the beginning, that then practiced and reinforced by conducting, and hearing the instruments in actuality in actual venues, with all the attendant acoustic dynamics.

Most of us have to start small, writing for one or two instruments, then slightly larger ensembles, learning about them first-hand, of course studying scores and a decent book or two on orchestration.

Writing for and consulting with actual players is a wealth of real information which is not to be had from the best of textbooks.

*A word on midi and orchestral samples:* 
Nothing available to any music student prior midi and samples has the legion of pitfalls midi affords. Use of midi and samples has become _the_ place where many a composer tries out their orchestrations, and between the cosmetics of the samples and the audio in general, that very critical balance you talk about can be so utterly skewed one could be led to believe that a single flute playing its low open middle c fortissimo, could for example, be heard through or over a medium sized brass section playing "just mezzo forte" -- which is not in any way an acoustic truth


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## arpeggio

*Right on PetrB*

Ditto on everything that PetrB says.

Check out my observations on the Sibelius _Third_: http://www.talkclassical.com/2816-jean-sibelius-21.html#post433618

These comments would also be applicable to any great orchestrator like Mahler.

Try to recall your time with the Mexico City Philharmonic Orchestra. Your experiences there probably taught you more than anything I can tell you. Trust your instincts.


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## Downbeat

Thanks for the comments. Recently I composed incidental music for a requiem for Agustin Lara (composer from Veracruz) for a quartet and woodwinds. Lara's songs were more popular and folk than classical, though he enjoyed including aspects of Chopin in his piano accompaniment. I had a lot of fun doing it, using Mahlerian and Wagnerian ideas, though for the layman!

Your point on talking to musicians to understand range and best resonance is excellent...I have lost contact with many and am living in the middle of a rural area, but I will start networking again.

I took some conducting instruction at the undergraduate level, and remained with a wanting to get up in front of an orchestra and really explore the textures that can be obtained from the ensemble ever since; I only ever managed to do it in front of a mirror!

I feel ready to do some composing now, and I appreciate your comments.


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