# Richard Strauss



## Rondo

Certainly one of my favs among the German/Austrian nationals. I haven't heard the entire body of his work, and only own a few pieces. Among those, favorites include _Buleske_ (credit to whoever it was in this forum that recommended that one to me a while back), and _Ein Heldenleben_, which I've had for a while.

Any other recommendations which would favor the two mentioned? I've also heard the _Alpine Symphonie_, but not quite enough to make any serious comments. Your favorites?


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## Gustav

I love his tone poems, Ein Heldenleben, Alpensinfonie, Till Eulenspiegel, Zarathustra, etc....


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## David C Coleman

Four Last Songs by Jessye Norman, Gewandhausorchester Leipzig, Kurt Masur - A must!


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## Rondo

Yes, Eulenspiegel and also _Don Juan_ are good too. I have those on a New Years album by the BPO.


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## World Violist

I've just begun to listen to the music of Richard Strauss; amazing... I'm listening Don Juan and Don Quixote, they're great. Till Eulenspiegel is hilarious.


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## BuddhaBandit

I like his operas quite a bit- _Elektra_ and the infamous _Salomé_ in particular. One of the very first recordings I bought included _Also Sprach Zarathustra_ (coupled with Holst's _The Planets_).


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## Yagan Kiely

Der Rosenkavalier, Capriccio, both horn concertos, early piano sonata (Op 8?). sinphonia Domestica, Metamorphosen, his entire opus.

Spelling is bad but I'm running out as I write this.


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## Methodistgirl

Don't feel bad I don't spell some things too good myself. Sometimes I run up on
a word that I can't spell.
judy tooley


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## Yagan Kiely

I am normally quite strict with spelling and grammar, back yonder when I first got on forums I used to type like so: "i rly like 2 wach NEthin" and I got bashed big time. And looking back I'm a better person because I had been flamed.


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## Gustav

Yagan Kiely said:


> I am normally quite strict with spelling and grammar, back yonder when I first got on forums I used to type like so: "i rly like 2 wach NEthin" and I got bashed big time. And looking back I'm a better person because I had been flamed.


It's the same for everybody, one never learns anything if he just get praises all the time. Sometimes the truth hurts, but hey, knowing the truth about oneself is pretty damn vital for self-improvement.


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## BuddhaBandit

Gustav said:


> It's the same for everybody, one never learns anything if he just get praises all the time, sometimes truth hurts, but hey, knowing the truth about oneself is pretty damn vital for self-improvement.


Well, in that case, Gustav... that's a run-on sentence and thus grammatically incorrect


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## Guest

David C Coleman said:


> Four Last Songs by Jessye Norman, Gewandhausorchester Leipzig, Kurt Masur - A must!


Yep, I agree, Fantastic music.


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## Gustav

BuddhaBandit said:


> Well, in that case, Gustav... that's a run-on sentence and thus grammatically incorrect


I don't really give a damn about grammar anymore, either you get what i say or don't. I am not here to teach people how to write in "proper English". I am here to exchange ideas, but if you want to be picky about it, be my guest.


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## Chi_townPhilly

Constructive criticism is essential to one's self-improvement...*

One of my earliest pieces of vinyl was a DG/Boston Symphony/Steinberg _Zarathustra_. My enthusiasm was such that I quickly acquired the remaining tone poems, except for _Transfiguration_. I suppose one of my family members has all that old vinyl that I left behind. I've since "buffed out" my collection on CD... but I still never really "got" the _Alpensinfonie_. By the way, I also love _Rosenkavalier_, and esteem it more highly that R. Strauss' other operas.

* ...unless, of course, the criticism concerns a topic that we deem to be irrelevant. Then, it is insignificant, quite, when contrasted to the criticisms concerning the _relevant_ issues that WE broach in our own critiques of others.


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## World Violist

I've heard Fritz Reiner was one of R. Strauss' greatest interpreters... and, hearing his account of Don Juan, I can do nothing else but agree.


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## Gustav

World Violist said:


> I've heard Fritz Reiner was one of R. Strauss' greatest interpreters... and, hearing his account of Don Juan, I can do nothing else but agree.


His "Zarathustra" on living stereo was pretty good, the Heldleben i didn't like so much.


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## socksband101

After listening to much of Richard Strass's music, specifically Till, Rosenkavalier Suite, Heldenleiben, and Eilpinesinfonie, I have noticed a general disrespect for his music. Not so much a hatred, but just a underratedness. I believe Strauss really is a genius and his music helped usher in the 20th century. Why is it that composers like Mahler and Brucker, granted also geniuses in my opinion, are always rated higher than him, not that I believe in rating, but one can not deny the awesomeness that is Rosenkavalier. Any thoughts?


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## Rondo

Karajan's _Ein Heldenleben_ is pretty good. Rattle's is too, but the recording quality is pretty poor. I have Blomstedt's recording on my list, but never got around to it.


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## Gustav

Rondo said:


> Karajan's _Ein Heldenleben_ is pretty good. Rattle's is too, but the recording quality is pretty poor. I have Blomstedt's recording on my list, but never got around to it.


The only one that I truly liked upon the first listen, is the one by Bychkov and SWR Koln ( i recommended it on my "CDs to buy" thread).


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## Isola

Any comments on _Metamorphosen for 23 solo strings_?


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## Bach

I don't like Strauss, his music sounds a bit movie-ish.


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## Guest

Gustav said:


> His "Zarathustra" on living stereo was pretty good, the Heldleben i didn't like so much.


I agree the Zarathustra is electric



Bach said:


> I don't like Strauss, his music sounds a bit movie-ish.


He can be an acquired taste for some, Try "The four last songs"


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## Kezza

I really like his Alpine symphony It really Paints the picture of scaling a huge mountain. I really quite enjoy it. But when you're listening to make sure it's quiet around you or you could miss the quiet bits which I think are the most important parts. But that's just me.


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## Yagan Kiely

> I don't like Strauss, his music sounds a bit movie-ish.


Early Hollywood film composers sound like a cheap and nasty rip off of Strauss, so I can see why you think that.

I personally, love the overture to Capriccio, it's a string sextet on stage.


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## Elaryad

I don't know his oeuvre. Just some waltzes I can barely remember. Any recommendations, please?


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## Yagan Kiely

I think you may be confusing Richard Strauss with all the other Strauss'. They wrote Viennese Waltzes, and while Richard wrote a few Waltzes, they aren't his main style. Richard Strauss wrote in a very chromatic style (sometimes more so than Wagner).


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## Bach

Andante said:


> I agree the Zarathustra is electric
> 
> He can be an acquired taste for some, Try "The four last songs"


I know the four last songs like the back of my hand - they're beautiful, but quite different to the rest of his works.


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## Elaryad

Yagan Kiely said:


> I think you may be confusing Richard Strauss with all the other Strauss'. They wrote Viennese Waltzes, and while Richard wrote a few Waltzes, they aren't his main style. Richard Strauss wrote in a very chromatic style (sometimes more so than Wagner).


So I don't know whom you're talking about  They really have the same name?


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## Yagan Kiely

> I know the four last songs like the back of my hand - they're beautiful, but quite different to the rest of his works.


Try Rosenkavalier, Capriccio and his lieder.



> They really have the same name?


There are about 13 different ones.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strauss#Music

Johann Strauss Junior, and Richard Strauss being the more famous of the group.


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## Sid James

Isola said:


> Any comments on _Metamorphosen for 23 solo strings_?


A very moving work. He wrote it in memory of those who died in WWII. At the end, there is a quote from the funeral march of Beethoven's _Eroica_ symphony. Apparently, this was not intentional as he was composing it. He just realised that he had made the quote after.


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## Yagan Kiely

> He wrote it in memory of those who died in WWII.


Well... mainly the Munich Opera House.


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## Weston

Today I listened to* Zarathustra *at work. I hadn't heard this piece in a very long time and I have a few questions for those in the know.

The introduction that most pople know so well seems to conclude on a massive chord on what sounds distinctly like a pipe organ. *Was this piece scored for pipe organ?* I don't recall hearing it again anywhere in the score. I was listening to a *Zubin Mehta *version, but I remember on my old vinyl *Fritz Reiner *version there was no pipe organ that I recall - or it was lost in the crackle.

If it really is pipe organ, is it brought into a concert hall somehow, or is it simply used if one happens to be present already? This is clearly not a portative organ!

I've always enjoyed this piece, but would a synopsis of the Nietzsche text enhance my understaning of it? Often it seems like so many fragmented motifs thrown together sometimes almost chaotically. Or I become interested in a melody but it quickly changes to a completely different mood and tone color. So inspite of its length it is not a relaxing piece, rather a mercurial one.

As for Strauss, my favorite work that I have heard is _Tod und Verklärung_ one of the greatest musical depictions of apotheosis I can think of. _Till Eulenspiegel_ is quite fun also.


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## Bach

Most big concert halls will have a pipe organ - yes, it is scored for pipe organ and no it is not used anywhere else.


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## EarlyCuyler

Check out the _Festival Prelude for Organ and Orchestra_. Its quite alot of fun to listen to. Get the Cincinnati/Cobos recording for full effect. Also, the Fischer/Budapest Festival Orchestra recording of the complete ballet suite to _Josephslegende_. His works for brass are insanely good. Such as Vienna Philharmonic Fanfare, Fanfare fur der Statdt Wien, Olympic Hymn. As far as Zarathustra goes, I really love the Mehta/LAPO recording, and the Sinopoli/NYPO recording. The best Heldenleben is the Jarvi/RSNO. Best Alpensinfonie is Mehta/LAPO. Avoid any Richard Strauss conducted by Christian Thielemann. I've never heard such anemic, limpwristed, readings of Alpensinfoine or Ein Heldenleben.


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## R-F

I was wondering if anyone could help me as to where I should start with Richard Strauss? I've felt reluctant in the past to tackle his music, but seeing as I've been appreciating Mahler a lot more recently, I felt that it was only logical that I should give Mr Strauss a go! 
Feel free to include any favourite recordings, too, it's always good to listen to different recordings. Thanks for any help guys!


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## Mirror Image

R-F said:


> I was wondering if anyone could help me as to where I should start with Richard Strauss? I've felt reluctant in the past to tackle his music, but seeing as I've been appreciating Mahler a lot more recently, I felt that it was only logical that I should give Mr Strauss a go!
> Feel free to include any favourite recordings, too, it's always good to listen to different recordings. Thanks for any help guys!


It's hard to deny the power of Karajan's Strauss. Here are some fantastic recordings for you to check out:

This is a 2 CD set:









This release will round out the above recordings:










For a more comprehensive collection look into these:

7-CD set, David Zinman/Zurich Tohalle Orchestra:









9-CD set, Rudolf Kempe, Dresden Staatskapelle:









Hope this helps you.


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## Tapkaara

I've officially started a process of getting closer to Strauss's music. For a while I've had trouble with him, thinking he's all glitz and no substance. But I happened upon a recording of his Four Last Songs, and thought they were amazing.


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## Mirror Image

Tapkaara said:


> I've officially started a process of getting closer to Strauss's music. For a while I've had trouble with him, thinking he's all glitz and no substance. But I happened upon a recording of his Four Last Songs, and thought they were amazing.


I'm curious what you own by Strauss, Tapkaara? Have you heard Karajan's, Previn's, and Kempe's recordings?


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## R-F

Thank you for the recomendations, I'll be sure to check them out!


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## powerbooks

Recycle this thread. I believe Richard Strauss is one of the two best composers for soprano voice. The other composer is WA Mozart.

The both wrote amazing duos and trios for the beautiful voices.

As Richard Strauss himself said: "I may not be a first-rate composer, but I am a first-class second-rate composer!"

My favorite include: Four Last Songs, and Der Rosenkavalier.


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## Andreas

What I love about Strauss is the contrapuntal density of his music. His works might be virtuosic and extravagant, which can seem shallow and superficial. But when you listen closely, there is so much going on at the same time it's quite amazing. Sure, the character of his music is subject to individual taste, but from a technical point of view, in terms of musical richness and sheer craftsmanship, Strauss is only paralleled by Mahler and Schoenberg in the 20th century.


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## powerbooks

Andreas said:


> What I love about Strauss is the contrapuntal density of his music. His works might be virtuosic and extravagant, which can seem shallow and superficial. But when you listen closely, there is so much going on at the same time it's quite amazing. Sure, the character of his music is subject to individual taste, but from a technical point of view, in terms of musical richness and sheer craftsmanship, Strauss is only paralleled by Mahler and Schoenberg in the 20th century.


Nice comment.

How do you compare Strauss with some of his peers, such as Ravel whom we also hold high regard in creativity.


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## Andreas

powerbooks said:


> Nice comment.
> 
> How do you compare Strauss with some of his peers, such as Ravel whom we also hold high regard in creativity.


Thank you! I think Ravel is a terrific composer, extremely skilled. And he has a unique sound. Very different from Strauss. I think many French composers in particular, like Ravel and Debussy and Fauré, tried to find a style and a sound that was unlike Wagner and his followers. Their sound is much leaner, much softer. They rarely ever use the big, full-orchestra sound.

Of Strauss' contemporaries, I like Sibelius best. Very different from Strauss. Of the younger generation, I think Arthur Honegger and Samuel Barber are among the greatest. Stravinsky was probably the most influential, but I like Honegger and Barber much better because their music is richer in texture and polyphony. Stravinsky is more linear or serial, also more repetitive.

Strauss was the last of the great post-wagnerian, late romantic composers. And then Schoenberg took music in a completely new direction.


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## powerbooks

Andreas:

I like your comments on Richard Strauss. I would like to ask you how do you compare his late compositions (such as Metamorphosen and Oboe Concerto) to the early years (Tod und Verklärung, and Burleske (Piano and Orchestra))?

I think he was struggling to adopt the new music but his heart is still in the Romantic German tradition!


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## Andreas

powerbooks said:


> Andreas:
> 
> I like your comments on Richard Strauss. I would like to ask you how do you compare his late compositions (such as Metamorphosen and Oboe Concerto) to the early years (Tod und Verklärung, and Burleske (Piano and Orchestra))?
> 
> I think he was struggling to adopt the new music but his heart is still in the Romantic German tradition!


Thank you again! I think Strauss remained true to his style even in his later years. Although one wouldn't expect someone who composed pieces like Till Eulenspiegel and Zarathustra to write something as classical as an oboe concerto. It's a wonderful work, for sure. I love how the orchestra is constantly providing undercurrents of interesting activity. And the oboe part sounds highly virtuosic without seeming forced.

Metamorphosen is an outstanding piece. It's interesting: Strauss, who is such a terrific orchestrator, restricts himself to string instruments for this enormous single-movement, half-hour piece. No brass, no woodwind, no percussion, much less cowbells, wind machine or organ. I think it's one of his greatest works, definitely his most honest and serious. And what incredible polyphony.

It seems like Strauss was not a bit influenced by Schoenberg and the atonal movement. Or maybe he was, in the sense that he felt motivated to hang on to tonality and not give in to the New Way. I think the idea of Wagner and Mahler and Strauss was to find out how far you can go without going too far.


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## Sonata

I'm recently discovering his music. One CD of his four last songs and Rosenkavalier suite, and another compilation. I definitely plan to dig in more later based on what I've heard. His style has this sweeping, majestic grandeur. Composing for a full orchestra just feels very natural coming from him.


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## StlukesguildOhio

If you like Strauss' _Four Last Songs_, look into his other orchestral songs:











You might even wish to explore Berg's _Seven Early Songs_:


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## powerbooks

Yes, as I said, Strauss is one hack of a composer for soprano! He married one for sure! (Again, just lie Mozart!)


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## Sonata

Thanks for the recommendations St. Luke!


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## Jared

Sonata said:


> His style has this sweeping, majestic grandeur.


If sweeping majestic grandeur is what you're after, you really need to hear the sweepingest of them all... Eine Alpensinphonie...


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## Sonata

yes, that one is definitely high on my to-listen to list.


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## Jared

Sonata said:


> yes, that one is definitely high on my to-listen to list.


'tis the CD cover in my avatar...


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## Couchie

I'm watching this Elektra tonight.


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## millionrainbows

Elektra was Strauss at his most adventurous. I like Metamorphosen; and the Rosenkavalier Suite, I really dig those modulation chords. He later retreated into a conservative classicism, but I like the Oboe Concerto. The Four Last Songs are achingly beautiful.


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## AndyS

I've been listening to a lot of Strauss recently - I find there is so much variety in his oeuvre to enjoy. I particularly love his operas, Salome has become one of my very favourites. He writes so well for the soprano voice that its never a chore to listen to one of his operas (provided there's a competent cast)


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## senza sordino

I've been listening to some more Strauss lately. I recently bought The Alpine Symphony and a HvK CD of Death and Transfoguration with Metamorphoses and Four Last Songs. I already had Also Sprach Zarathustra, Till Eulenspiegel, and Don Juan. It's all good, but I have to admit I still haven't quite figured out the tone poem. Tone poems are not structured or organized like a symphony. What should I be listening for? Is there less structure to a tone poem or structure I haven't figured out yet? 

And I have never heard the violin concerto of Strauss nor the violin sonata. Can anyone recommend a specific recording?

The Vancouver Opera performed Electra some years ago, it was mesmerizing, it was great. I really enjoyed it.


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## Vaneyes

senza sordino said:


> I've been listening to some more Strauss lately. I recently bought The Alpine Symphony and a HvK CD of Death and Transfoguration with Metamorphoses and Four Last Songs. I already had Also Sprach Zarathustra, Till Eulenspiegel, and Don Juan. It's all good, but I have to admit *I still haven't quite figured out the tone poem.* Tone poems are not structured or organized like a symphony. What should I be listening for? Is there less structure to a tone poem or structure I haven't figured out yet?
> 
> And I have never heard the *violin concerto of Strauss nor the violin sonata*. Can anyone recommend a specific recording?
> 
> The Vancouver Opera performed Electra some years ago, it was mesmerizing, it was great. I really enjoyed it.


Also referred to as Symphonic Poem, that's largely thematic, telling a story, and in one movement.

Suggested rec...

View attachment 29753


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## hillisg

Bach said:


> I don't like Strauss, his music sounds a bit movie-ish.


That's because all the movie composers copied him.


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## Adagietto

Strauss was my favorite composer when I first got into classical music, and primarily listened to symphonic poems. My tastes changed, and now I only listen to some of his symphonic poems occasionally on Youtube. I do have a large amount of his Lieder and some of his chamber works in my collection, which I do love.


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## Vaneyes

"Dying is just as I composed it in _Tod und Verklärung_."

http://www.newstatesman.com/culture/2014/01/richard-strauss-reluctant-nazi-collaborator


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## Marschallin Blair

*Sublime Strauss*


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## danielsshao

Sad that this thread is so much shorter than those given to a lot of other composers. Strauss wasn't just a master of the tone poem, as he's often pigeonholed as, but also a great deal of other genres: opera, songs, and concerti being the most major ones. I find it interesting that he almost "reverted" in his later years (not saying that's necessarily a bad thing) going from Salome and Elektra to the Oboe Concerto and Four Last Songs in his last years after World War II. I often wonder what made him seemingly look backwards: was it nostalgia in his old age, perhaps?

Anyway, as others have said, the Four Last Songs, Salome, Alpine Symphony, and Metamorphosen are most definitely enough to put him into the pantheon of the great late Romanticists: I encourage anyone new to Strauss to begin with those four works to hear everything he has to offer.


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## hpowders

His Four Last Songs with Janowitz/Karajan and Oboe Concerto with Heinz Holliger are two of my favorite R Strauss works/performances.


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## Itullian

Highly recommended.


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## Guest

Horn Concerti need to be more common! I was forced to listen to R. Strauss today!


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## hpowders

Strauss' Horn concertos are among his finest works. Dennis Brain holds court in this territory.


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## Cosmos

Haven't listen to Strauss lately. I absolutely love Ein Heldenleben and the Alpine Symphony. Also sprach Zarathustra is another cool work. And though I'm not to big on opera, I'm always captivated by the music of Salome


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## schuberkovich

I find it really difficult to listen to Metamorphosen, It's so powerful but just seems to aimlessly go on and on...
any tips for listening to it?


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## hpowders

I grew up on "Ein Heldenleben"; then as a kid I tried that hero stuff on the street and quickly learned, for me, it would quickly turn into an "assumed hero's death."


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## Vaneyes

Critics recommend *R. Strauss* recordings.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/12/26/a...egion&WT.nav=c-column-middle-span-region&_r=0


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## Vaneyes

Tim Page on *Richard Strauss*.

http://www.nybooks.com/blogs/gallery/2015/jan/31/pleasures-richard-strauss/


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## Triplets

schuberkovich said:


> I find it really difficult to listen to Metamorphosen, It's so powerful but just seems to aimlessly go on and on...
> any tips for listening to it?


Buy it on an 33 1/3 lp, and play it at 78 rpm. Lends a whole new meaning to the title.:devil:


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## Triplets

I've searched the thread and I didn't see anyone mention the Strauss quote to the effect of "I'm a first rate second rate composer".
I think that carries it a bit to far, but most of his great works came over about a 10 year span, and then there is a distinct drop off after that. But my, what a run he had during that decade!


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## StlukesguildOhio

Strauss actually had about a 30-year period during which he was at his peak as a composer:

Don Juan- 1889
Tod und Verklärung- 1890
Till Eulenspiegels lustige Streiche- 1895
Also sprach Zarathustra- 1896
Don Quixote- 1898
Ein Heldenleben- 1898
Salome- 1905
Elektra- 1909
Der Rosenkavalier- 1911
An Alpine Symphony- 1915
Ariadne auf Naxos- 1916
Die Frau ohne Schatten- 1919
Intermezzo- 1923

After Die Frau ohne Schatten there is a decline in his efforts as a composer... but we need to remember he was quite active as a conductor... especially of opera... and that by the time Hitler took control, Strauss was already 68 years old. How many of his age could deal with the political realities of the Third Reich (including the efforts to protect his Jewish Daughter-in-Law and her children) and later the effects of WWII and still carry on as a composer?

Even so, Strauss did carry on:

Arabella- 1933
Die schweigsame Frau- 1934
Daphne- 1938
Capriccio- 1942
Metamorphosen- 1945
Oboe Concerto- 1945
Vier letzte Lieder- 1950

Interspersed between all of these larger works Strauss continued to compose a sizable body of lieder.


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## Marschallin Blair

StlukesguildOhio said:


> Strauss actually had about a 30-year period during which he was at his peak as a composer:
> 
> Don Juan- 1889
> Tod und Verklärung- 1890
> Till Eulenspiegels lustige Streiche- 1895
> Also sprach Zarathustra- 1896
> Don Quixote- 1898
> Ein Heldenleben- 1898
> Salome- 1905
> Elektra- 1909
> Der Rosenkavalier- 1911
> An Alpine Symphony- 1915
> Ariadne auf Naxos- 1916
> Die Frau ohne Schatten- 1919
> Intermezzo- 1923
> 
> After Die Frau ohne Schatten there is a decline in his efforts as a composer... but we need to remember he was quite active as a conductor... especially of opera... and that by the time Hitler took control, Strauss was already 68 years old. How many of his age could deal with the political realities of the Third Reich (including the efforts to protect his Jewish Daughter-in-Law and her children) and later the effects of WWII and still carry on as a composer?
> 
> Even so, Strauss did carry on:
> 
> Arabella- 1933
> Die schweigsame Frau- 1934
> Daphne- 1938
> Capriccio- 1942
> Metamorphosen- 1945
> Oboe Concerto- 1945
> Vier letzte Lieder- 1950
> 
> Interspersed between all of these larger works Strauss continued to compose a sizable body of lieder.


I disagree. . . _slightly.__ ;D_

_Arabella_ and _Capriccio_ are 'masterful' if not precisely 'masterpieces.' The same goes for _Die Agyptische Helena_ and _Die Liebe der Danae_ as well.


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## starthrower

I want to pick up one of his operas. I'm not crazy about his orchestral music. It sounds too old world for a composer who lived until mid 20th century.


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## brotagonist

starthrower said:


> I want to pick up one of his operas. I'm not crazy about his orchestral music. It sounds too old world for a composer who lived until mid 20th century.


You should give Elektra a try. Wkipedia describes it as a "very modern, expressionistic retelling of the ancient Greek myth.... _Elektra_ is a difficult, musically complex work which requires great stamina to perform. The role of Elektra, in particular, is one of the most demanding in the dramatic soprano repertoire.... Musically, _Elektra_ deploys dissonance, chromaticism and extremely fluid tonality in a way which recalls but moves beyond the same composer's _Salome_ of 1905, and thus _Elektra_ represents Strauss's furthest advances in modernism, from which he later retreated. The bitonal or extended Elektra chord is a well known dissonance from the opera while harmonic parallelism is also [a] prominent modernist technique." It is considered by many to be his finest.

I think you would be well advised to revisit his tone poems. I had similar reservations about his orchestral music... until I got the Karajan/Berlin box that includes most of his tone poems, the Dance of the seven Veils, the Four Last Songs, his later concerti, etc. It turned my head around.


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## Dim7

starthrower said:


> I want to pick up one of his operas. I'm not crazy about his orchestral music. It sounds too old world for a composer who lived until mid 20th century.


Pretend that he lived only in the 19th century then.


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## starthrower

Dim7 said:


> Pretend that he lived only in the 19th century then.


I can listen to Brahms instead. No pretending necessary.


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## Marsilius

Strauss fans will enjoy a new (2014) documentary film "Richard Strauss: At the end of the rainbow", released on DVD and Blu-ray in 2015.


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## chesapeake bay

Just listening to some of his solo piano works and I quite enjoyed sonata op 5


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## Lisztian

starthrower said:


> It sounds too old world for a composer who lived until mid 20th century.





starthrower said:


> I can listen to Brahms instead. No pretending necessary.


I don't understand this at all 

The first part doesn't strike me as a valid reason for not liking music (but surely part of the reason that some people unfairly look down on Strauss), while the second...sure there are some similarities, but suggesting you can get everything the Strauss offers in the music of Brahms seems absolutely absurd to me.


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## clavichorder

Strauss's music has a tremendous amount to offer. He may have had a certain laziness about developing thematic ideas, but he had talent and inspiration in heaps and in his most successful work, side stepped the need for such things as tightly developed music. Sometimes he even does development quite well, because this was a composer like Handel, who could strike hard when he wanted to.

Here is a very different work of Strauss that has fascinated me lately:





Late Strauss is interesting. Sort of like late Prokofiev, a simplification of style and a return to roots, but in a very wise and aged sort of way.


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## Scopitone

Last night, I streamed _Capriccio _on the Met's app (Renee Fleming as The Countess). It's Strauss's final opera, composed and premiered in Germany in 1942, IIRC.

A fascinating piece. _Very _talky -- essentially an extended debate about the importance of words vs music, along with the way they can come together in the opera -- with some beautiful music. I liked La Roche's big speech/aria about the theatre, as well as the sonnet when it becomes a song. And of course the ending was gorgeous.

I read an article afterwards deconstructing it, talking about how it's an example of the kind of middle-brow bourgeois art that would have been acceptable to the Third Reich. The same article takes Strauss to task for not writing something more subversive (or at least acknowledging the fact that there was a war on). And it's true that it's not as challenging as something like _Elektra_. Although setting it in France seems *kind of* subversive, I guess. There's no reason the same type of story couldn't have been set in Vienna.

Looked at in historical context, it's certainly a bit escapist. It thankfully lacks the uncomfortable propaganda aspect that underlies so many otherwise excellent Third Reich films of the day, many of them costume dramas the same as this one.


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## Scopitone

I found this BBC documentary yesterday - must have been filmed in the 70's, based on the outfits. Superb, with lots of priceless footage of Strauss, lovely anecdotes, and some great video of great opera singers (probably taken from 50's and early 60's TV). Lisa della Casa is always a pleasure to watch. 

Anyway, check it out. It now makes me want to find a good biography of the man and dig into it. Any suggestions?


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## Barbebleu

Scopitone said:


> Last night, I streamed _Capriccio _on the Met's app (Renee Fleming as The Countess). It's Strauss's final opera, composed and premiered in Germany in 1942, IIRC.
> 
> A fascinating piece. _Very _talky -- essentially an extended debate about the importance of words vs music, along with the way they can come together in the opera -- with some beautiful music. I liked La Roche's big speech/aria about the theatre, as well as the sonnet when it becomes a song. And of course the ending was gorgeous.
> 
> I read an article afterwards deconstructing it, talking about how it's an example of the kind of middle-brow bourgeois art that would have been acceptable to the Third Reich. The same article takes Strauss to task for not writing something more subversive (or at least acknowledging the fact that there was a war on). And it's true that it's not as challenging as something like _Elektra_. Although setting it in France seems *kind of* subversive, I guess. There's no reason the same type of story couldn't have been set in Vienna.
> 
> Looked at in historical context, it's certainly a bit escapist. It thankfully lacks the uncomfortable propaganda aspect that underlies so many otherwise excellent Third Reich films of the day, many of them costume dramas the same as this one.


It's one of my favourite operas by any composer. Prima la musica, dopo le parole I say!!


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## Barbebleu

Scopitone said:


> I found this BBC documentary yesterday - must have been filmed in the 70's, based on the outfits. Superb, with lots of priceless footage of Strauss, lovely anecdotes, and some great video of great opera singers (probably taken from 50's and early 60's TV). Lisa della Casa is always a pleasure to watch.
> 
> Anyway, check it out. It now makes me want to find a good biography of the man and dig into it. Any suggestions?


I'll have a look at what I've got. They are not to hand at the moment but I'll get back to you with a couple of suggestions.


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## Scopitone

Barbebleu said:


> I'll have a look at what I've got. They are not to hand at the moment but I'll get back to you with a couple of suggestions.


Ta muchly. I am not in a hurry - goodness knows I have dozens of unread new books already!


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## starthrower

brotagonist said:


> I think you would be well advised to revisit his tone poems. I had similar reservations about his orchestral music... until I got the Karajan/Berlin box that includes most of his tone poems, the Dance of the seven Veils, the Four Last Songs, his later concerti, etc. It turned my head around.


I've been entertaining the idea of buying a set, but haven't made up my mind on which one.


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## Heliogabo

starthrower said:


> I've been entertaining the idea of buying a set, but haven't made up my mind on which one.


Yo can´t go wrong with Kempe or Karajan. Both are superior in his own way.


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## Barbebleu

Scopitone said:


> Ta muchly. I am not in a hurry - goodness knows I have dozens of unread new books already!


Norman Del Mar's three volume critical study is excellent for biography and analysis. They are a bit pricey but used copies can be found. The Cambridge Companion is good for analysis of the operas and tone poems and the the cultural milieu he inhabited and Michael Kennedy is a good one volume look at Strauss the composer. There are others but if you have any or all of these you won't go far wrong.


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## Scopitone

Barbebleu said:


> Norman Del Mar's three volume critical study is excellent for biography and analysis. They are a bit pricey but used copies can be found. The Cambridge Companion is good for analysis of the operas and tone poems and the the cultural milieu he inhabited and Michael Kennedy is a good one volume look at Strauss the composer. There are others but if you have any or all of these you won't go far wrong.


Superb!

Thanks again.


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## starthrower

Lisztian said:


> I don't understand this at all
> 
> The first part doesn't strike me as a valid reason for not liking music (but surely part of the reason that some people unfairly look down on Strauss), while the second...sure there are some similarities, but suggesting you can get everything the Strauss offers in the music of Brahms seems absolutely absurd to me.


Over this summer I have been getting back in to enjoying more romantic music. I'm even enjoying some concertos, and I had always loathed romantic concertos. Even R Strauss's tone poems are sounding good to my ears. I got the Karajan CD with Death and Transfiguration, and Metamorphosen from the library. But I will have to seek out a different recording to purchase. Even though I have the 70s album, the sound is extremely hard and bright. It's really disappointing. I'm not really a Karajan fan anyway. He has a way of turning romantic music into schmaltz. I know Kempe has been criticized for not giving the performances enough heft and power, but that re-issue box is so cheap, I might pick it up anyway. Or I could try Reiner.


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## Meyerbeer Smith

_Die schweigsame Frau_ is very enjoyable. I've been watching a 1972 Munich production starring Kurt Moll and Reri Grist:





The sound doesn't pick up all the details, but the wedding sextet and the trio at the end of Act II (Morosus's bass notes & a lyrical orchestra) are lovely.






And it ends with this:


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## AlanB

I am a great lover of Richard Strauss' music. There is barely a day I don't listen to The Last Four Songs. Lucia Popp with Tensteddt is fabulous.
If you love lieder why stop at The Last Four Songs. He wrote so many wonderful songs. Listen to 'Morgen' and be ready to be transported to heaven. Many wonderful recordings of this but particularly like Diana Damrau and Felicity Lott.
There is a little known ballet called Joseph's Legende. Really interesting music.
The only R Strauss piece I cannot get on with is Symphonie Domestica.


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## Pugg

AlanB said:


> I am a great lover of Richard Strauss' music. There is barely a day I don't listen to The Last Four Songs. Lucia Popp with Tensteddt is fabulous.
> If you love lieder why stop at The Last Four Songs. He wrote so many wonderful songs. Listen to 'Morgen' and be ready to be transported to heaven. Many wonderful recordings of this but particularly like Diana Damrau and Felicity Lott.
> There is a little known ballet called Joseph's Legende. Really interesting music.
> The only R Strauss piece I cannot get on with is Symphonie Domestic.


The best I keep saying. ( In red now)
AS for the Symphonie Domestica either it grabs you or not, don't lose sleep over it.


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## gouts

I'm a mountain hiker, and whenever I need to pump up, I'm hearing the Alpine Symphony (Haitink's performance is my favorite) at high volumes! It really gets me going!


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## hpowders

Strauss himself said it best. He didn't consider himself a great composer of the first rank, but he was a damn good second rate composer. I agree, and it surely is nothing to be ashamed of!


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## Pugg

gouts said:


> I'm a mountain hiker, and whenever I need to pump up, I'm hearing the Alpine Symphony (Haitink's performance is my favourite) at high volumes! It really gets me going!


Very good taste.


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## helenora

gouts said:


> I'm a mountain hiker, and whenever I need to pump up, I'm hearing the Alpine Symphony (Haitink's performance is my favorite) at high volumes! It really gets me going!


cool! 

I think the beginning of Don Juan would pump up to the moon !


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## christomacin

Yagan Kiely said:


> Der Rosenkavalier, Capriccio, both horn concertos, early piano sonata (Op 8?). sinphonia Domestica, Metamorphosen, his entire opus.
> 
> Spelling is bad but I'm running out as I write this.


His late masterpieces shouldn't be neglected:


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## Janspe

There's something truly incredible about the vocal music that Strauss wrote - I'm currently listening to the _Vier letzte Lieder_ and I'm just so moved by this music... Funnily enough, I'm surely not the biggest Strauss fan but these four songs always fill me with a wonderful warm feeling that is so overwhelming!

I also heard some other songs of his in a concert (sung by Anne Schwanewilms) and it was simply perfect. I don't know how he did it - maybe because his wife was a soprano? - but he had an absolutely _wicked_ way with the female voice.


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## Zeus

Richard Strauss is undeniably one of the great composers of classical music, along with Bach, Mozart, Beethoven, Brahms, Wagner, his name should be sung among them. It escapes my thought as to why people look down to him as an almost 2nd-rate composer, when his music elevates above the simplicity and intrascendentalism of many works people deem to be "masterpieces." I have heard few works in my life that compare to "Also Sprach Zarathusta", "Metamorphosen", or "Tod und Verklarung."


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## Josquin13

Zeus writes, "It escapes my thought as to why people look down to him as an almost 2nd-rate composer..."

It was Strauss himself that made the self-deprecating remark, "I may not be a first-rate composer, but I am a first-class second-rate composer". However, there's no denying that Strauss was one of the great orchestrators in music history, revolutionizing the expressive technical boundaries of a large orchestra through his tone poems, expanding upon what Liszt had done (as the inventor of the orchestral tone poem), along with Wagner in his operas, Mahler in his symphonies & orchestral song cycles, and later, Debussy, Stravinsky, and Ravel in The Firebird, Rite of Spring, Petrushka, Daphnis et Chloe, Ma mére l'Oye, La Mer, Prelude to the Afternoon of a Faun, etc.. 

Nor can one deny that Strauss wrote some of the most incredibly beautiful and moving music ever composed for the female voice, such as with his Four Last Songs, Morgen & other lieder, and operas such as Der Rosenkavalier.

Hearing the Staatskapelle Dresden perform his orchestral music (Don Juan, Ein Heldenleben, & Four Last Songs)--an orchestra that premiered many of his operas & with whom Strauss was intimately associated--has been one of the most unforgettable & unique concert experiences of my life.


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## Barbebleu

Josquin13 said:


> Zeus writes, "It escapes my thought as to why people look down to him as an almost 2nd-rate composer..."
> 
> It was Strauss himself that made the self-deprecating remark, "I may not be a first-rate composer, but I am a first-class second-rate composer". However, there's no denying that Strauss was one of the great orchestrators in music history, revolutionizing the expressive technical boundaries of a large orchestra through his tone poems, expanding upon what Liszt had done (as the inventor of the orchestral tone poem), along with Wagner in his operas, Mahler in his symphonies & orchestral song cycles, and later, Debussy, Stravinsky, and Ravel in The Firebird, Rite of Spring, Petrushka, Daphnis et Chloe, Ma mére l'Oye, La Mer, Prelude to the Afternoon of a Faun, etc..
> 
> Nor can one deny that Strauss wrote some of the most incredibly beautiful and moving music ever composed for the female voice, such as with his Four Last Songs, Morgen & other lieder, and operas such as Der Rosenkavalier.
> 
> Hearing the Staatskapelle Dresden perform his orchestral music (Don Juan, Ein Heldenleben, & Four Last Songs)--an orchestra that premiered many of his operas & with whom Strauss was intimately associated--has been one of the most unforgettable & unique concert experiences of my life.


He certainly made life hard for his tenors. He delighted in having fearsomely high and tiring tessituras for them to contend with, Bacchus in Ariadne and the Emperor in FROSCH Spring to mind. But a great tenor can take this in his stride so not really a problem if the voice is solid.


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## Josquin13

Barbeleu writes, "He certainly made life hard for his tenors."

Yes! Strauss was said not to have liked tenors much. Do you think he was generally more inspired when he composed for sopranos? I think Siegfried Jerusalem and Dietrich Fischer-Dieskau might have argued otherwise.


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## Barbebleu

He certainly loved the soprano voice probably because his wife was one. He's a bit fairer on the other voices too. If you discount the Italian Tenor then Rosenkavalier doesn't even have a tenor rôle. By the time he wrote Capriccio he was pretty even-handed and nobody is over-stretched. One of my very favourite Strauss operas.


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## SiegendesLicht

gouts said:


> I'm a mountain hiker, and whenever I need to pump up, I'm hearing the Alpine Symphony (Haitink's performance is my favorite) at high volumes! It really gets me going!


I listen to the Alpine Symphony when I have completed my wandering and want to relive being in the Alps again.














Even just now I am getting goosebumps while listening to this part and remembering my last Alpine adventure, wandering all alone in the snowy wilderness while the night begins to slowly descend on the mountains.


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## Roger Knox

AlanB said:


> I am a great lover of Richard Strauss' music. There is barely a day I don't listen to The Last Four Songs. Lucia Popp with Tensteddt is fabulous.
> If you love lieder why stop at The Last Four Songs. He wrote so many wonderful songs. Listen to 'Morgen' and be ready to be transported to heaven. Many wonderful recordings of this but particularly like Diana Damrau and Felicity Lott.


Would anyone know the difference between Lieder and Gesaenge? The latter term is applied to some long R. Strauss songs for Bass and Orchestra.

I agree with your comment on Lucia Popp, and Diana Damrau's CD of orchestral songs with the Munich Philharmonic/Thieleman is fabulous too! Recently I consulted the list of R. Strauss songs in Michael Kennedy's bio and it is staggering -- have listened to many already, including most of the orchestral or orchestrated ones and they're of very high quality. No "second-rate composer" he.


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## jdec

SiegendesLicht said:


> I listen to the Alpine Symphony when I have completed my wandering and want to relive being in the Alps again.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 101352
> 
> 
> Even just now I am getting goosebumps while listening to this part and remembering my last Alpine adventure, wandering all alone in the snowy wilderness while the night begins to slowly descend on the mountains.


I hear you. This has always been one of my favorite parts of the Alpine Symphony, and with this very same recording (nothing like Karajan and the BPO on this one). I never get tired of being completely transported to the alps and having this one day adventure in my mind when listening to this gem of work from the great R. Strauss.


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## Harroth

christomacin said:


> His late masterpieces shouldn't be neglected:


My favorite Strauss orchestral works are nearly all segments of longer tone poems that contain them. A lot of the episodes in the tone poems are humorous and those tend to be my favorites. The first stirring of the critics in Hero's Life. The windmills in Don Quixote and the Don's assault on them. I like very much the Rosenkavalier Suite. I have to work a little too hard to appreciate the vocal works, but I like Salome and Elektra both very much. The later works I do neglect, trusting that the rest of the world will give them the attention they probably deserve!


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## Nicksievers

I am struggling with Strauss as well as Wagner and Berlioz. I love all of their textures. Particularly Strauss. His harmonic language seems to be the perfect level of chromaticism at least for my ears. However I have yet to find a single piece by any of the so called new german school that has any logical coherency what so ever. The pacing is just awful. Yes I would admit that many of these composers, particularly strauss, are great with their handling of motifs in a programmatic setting. It however is the pacing that feels forced and unmusical in order to loosely fit some sort of plot. Please give me music to change my mind.


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## Lisztian

Nicksievers said:


> I am struggling with Strauss as well as Wagner and Berlioz. I love all of their textures. Particularly Strauss. His harmonic language seems to be the perfect level of chromaticism at least for my ears. However I have yet to find a single piece by any of the so called new german school that has any logical coherency what so ever. The pacing is just awful. Yes I would admit that many of these composers, particularly strauss, are great with their handling of motifs in a programmatic setting. It however is the pacing that feels forced and unmusical in order to loosely fit some sort of plot. Please give me music to change my mind.


Strauss at his most purely, heart-wrenchingly musical:






Took me a few listens, but then I'm a dunce.


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## noraa

When I first saw _Ariadne Auf Naxos_ during my first years studying at university, I was so impressed, I went to go see it a second time. R. Strauss has been one of my favorite composers since the first time I heard _Don Juan_, when I was 17. His gift for melody, harmony, beauty, and his imagination are unique among composers, in my opinion. Whenever I try to figure out a passage of his by ear, I'm impressed at how deceptively simple it sounds- nothing forced or contrived (unless you consider some of his theatrical effects, such as those in _Don Quioxte_, to be contrived, which is a understandable).


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## Triplets

I love the depiction of the chirping Critics in Ein Heldenleben


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## R3PL4Y

His ballet Josephslegende is a really great work that I don't see mentioned often. Aside from the obvious works, I also really enjoy le Bourgeois Gentilhomme and the oboe concerto.


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## janxharris

Love this version of Zarathustra:


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## Sid James

I've finished reading *Michael Kennedy's Richard Strauss: Man, Musician, Enigma *(Cambridge University Press, 1999) and so thought I'd make a few observations about it here.

Having never read an entire book on Strauss, this has been informative for me and corrected a few misconceptions I previously had about him. According to Kennedy, a great deal of still widespread negative assessments of Strauss can be traced back to only a few sources, namely Alma Mahler, Klaus Mann (the son of Thomas Mann) and Normal Del Mar (whose book on Strauss was far from objective).

There where a number of aspects to Strauss which I had never previously encountered. One was his work in strengthening copyright laws to favour composers rather than publishers. Strauss was a man who always put the interests of his family first, and in doing this he was passionate about improving the legal rights of composers to earn an income from their creative work. Some judged him to be the archetypal bourgeois composer, but having lost almost everything in the aftermath of two world wars, money had a very practical impact on Strauss' life.

I also hadn't realised the autobiographical nature of Strauss' music. Although more subtle than his contemporary Mahler, it went through his entire oeuvre. Kennedy returns to this theme throughout the book, it runs like a thread through all of Strauss' major works. The tone poems and operas have themes which mirror his marriage, his readings on a variety of subjects from psychology to history and philosophy, and the tragedy of his mother who suffered from mental illness. His music up till _Elektra_ was seen as being modern and bold, at the forefront of new trends. _Der Rosenkavalier _marked a change towards a sort of classicism, and a continuous consolidation and bringing to fruition of the ideas from before.

Pauline de Ahna, a soprano who sang under the young Strauss' baton, was the rock of his life. The biographies influenced by Alma Mahler painted her as a shrewish wife, a control freak. Closer to reality, is that she was contented to give up her career in opera in order to devote herself to Strauss. Pauline was a forceful personality for sure, prone to tantrums and irrationally jealous. At the same time, she had an artist's sensibility like her husband and was on the same wavelength as he, in some respects she would now be described more as quirky.

There is no doubt that the issue of Strauss' relationship with the Nazi regime still hangs over him like a cloud. The Third Reich set up what amounted to a reorganisation of administration of the arts in Germany. Strauss became its figurehead, and other illustrious figures such as Wilhelm Furtwangler and Paul Hindemith where also initially involved. Although Strauss did this to protect his Jewish daughter in law Alice, it did not succeed in preventing the death of over two dozen of her relatives. After a disagreement with Joseph Goebbels, Strauss was dismissed from the chamber, and some but not all of the Nazi hierarchy became hostile to him. In some cities, chiefly Vienna and Warsaw, he had local leaders who where sympathetic to him despite Berlin's hostility. Strauss also happened to be friends with musicians who had connections with the regime, namely Karl Bohm and Clemens Krauss.

After World War II, following a period of exile in Switzerland, Strauss' name was cleared under the American de-Nazification process. It is worth noting that Arnold Schoenberg, who was by then no friend of Strauss, provided the tribunal with a reference saying that he was not a Nazi and never much interested in politics. Strauss' belief that he would avoid trouble with the Nazis just as he had dealing with earlier regimes - he was not in favour under the Kaiser, nor with the Weimar Republic - was also a good indicator of his essentially pragmatic outlook. This came under fire with an article published by the abovementioned Klaus Mann, who interviewed Strauss incognito and did more damage to his reputation than any other writer.

It is somewhat pitiable to read of Strauss' dismay at seeing the devastation of German culture in his old age. He wasn't an entirely a spent force, turning out some of his best work just after the war and boarding a plane for the first time to conduct in London. He received many honors and worked with the rising stars of music - such as Herbert von Karajan and Georg Solti - who would continue to honour his legacy.

I thoroughly enjoyed this book, of which I have given but a cursory summary. Another major aspect of it is the detailed description of Strauss' process of composition, not the least his collaboration with librettists Hugo von Hoffmanstahl, Stefan Zweig, Joseph Gregor and Krauss. Even though I am not interested in opera, the very human relationships and conflicts which led to the creation of these works was fascinating (none the least the issue of Zweig being a Jew during the Third Reich, and all the ways in which exposure of this was avoided).


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## elgar's ghost

Of the tone poems my favourite is _Don Quixote_, but I've always been a sucker for variation form. The only work which leaves me cold is the _Symphonia Domestica_ and that's more to do with the premise rather than the music itself - I think there's something annoyingly smug about that kind of self-referencing, even if Strauss was having a slight dig at himself in places. _Symphonia Domestica_ may be a delicious-looking apfelstrudel, but it still contains far too much sugar.


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## flamencosketches

I am not a big opera guy, but I've been listening to Elektra a bit lately, passively, no libretto and no clue about the plot. Musically, it's really interesting. Kind of like if Wagner had sharper, more modern/expressionistic textures and a faster pace. I like it more than any of his tone poems I've heard.


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## Mandryka

Yes fabulous.

At the time many people thought that recording had a major problem: it's too tense, there's never a moment when things relax. Not even when the brother Orestes turns up.

The LPs of it had a really beautiful booklet. Worth trying to see if you're interested in graphic design. Here's a bit of it, it was all black and white like this









I saw Solti do it with Nilsson in London, it was pretty special.


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## flamencosketches

it IS tense. I figured Solti did that for a reason, maybe something to do with the plot? I still don't know what it's about. 

That booklet does look great. I wonder if vinyl copies are pricey or not. Classical LPs are generally dirt cheap.


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## Mandryka

flamencosketches said:


> it IS tense. I figured Solti did that for a reason, maybe something to do with the plot? I still don't know what it's about.


Her step father killed her father. She wants he bro to come back and kill her stepfather -- he was "removed" by the step dad. Then the brother turns up, kills the step father, and she is so happy she dances herself to death. Curtains, and off to the bar for a stiff drink.

The moment which is relaxed is when brother and sister meet again for the first time in ages.

Solti was always tense whatever he conducted, he was un-affectionately known as the screaming skull by people in the orchestra.


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## flamencosketches

Must have been an amazing experience to see live. Count yourself lucky, Solti was a legend. All of my favorite conductors died before I was born :lol:


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## flamencosketches

This is a phenomenal CD. Strauss was actually a very versatile composer. His more sensitive side like these songs is in pretty direct contrast to the high anxiety drive of Elektra. He excels in both.


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## flamencosketches

A good performance of Die Rosenkavalier. Solti is an incredible operatic conductor

Would it be fair to say this is more "conservative" than Elektra? Perhaps more Wagnerian? I'm not familiar enough with either Wagner or opera in general to make that call. It's good though!

What gives, no Strauss fans here? Kind of talking to myself :lol:


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## Mandryka

flamencosketches said:


> A good performance of Die Rosenkavalier. Solti is an incredible operatic conductor
> 
> Would it be fair to say this is more "conservative" than Elektra? Perhaps more Wagnerian? I'm not familiar enough with either Wagner or opera in general to make that call. It's good though!
> 
> What gives, no Strauss fans here? Kind of talking to myself :lol:


There's something special about Hofmannstahl's play IMO, the character of the Marschallin is very well done, with her reflections on time and ageing, the way she accepts being dumped by Octavian it's very much like Figaro really, in the garden scene, when the countess accepts Almaviva's womanising. The music's Mozartian too in a way.

It's clearly a shamefully reactionary composition, a sort of return to Mozartian operatic values. So yes, it's conservative. Some of his stuff after is less conservative IMO -- Araballa and Frau Ohne Schatten and Ariadne too has an extraordinary almost modernist structure. But I think musically even Puccini was more interesting than Strauss, though clearly Strauss is adorable and the collaboration with Hoffmannstahl as magical as Mozart's with Da Ponte.


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## Mandryka

By the way, one thing to try and listen to is Bernstein playing the 1st act overture to Rosenkav. You can hear the orgasm, very vulgar and funny.


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## millionrainbows

Yeah, Strauss' last period was conservative, with the Mozartian Oboe Concerto and Four Last Songs.
What I like most about Der Rosenkavalier is the Suite, the way it modulates (at 12:44). You can hear it separately on several recordings.


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## Mandryka

The last period had metamorphosen in it I think.


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## millionrainbows

Mandryka said:


> The last period had metamorphosen in it I think.


Yes, what are we to make of that? it's a radical work. We could do a whole thread about that one work. Here's a good version with a great surrealist cover:


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## violadude

Strauss fans, I want your opinion on something. I've been neglectful of Strauss in the past but I'm recently going through his major works. Great stuff. But I'm listening to Tod Und Verklarung at the moment and what strikes me the most out of anything is just how conventional it is compared to Strauss' major tone poem works! Does anyone else get this impression of the piece? Compared to Don Juan, Don Quixote, Also Sprach Zarathustra, Till Eulenspiegel or even the operas Salome and Elektra, it's still fiery and dramatic yes, but the phrasing, the harmonic structures and especially the rhythmic elasticty that Strauss' music usually demonstrates seems to be a lot more toned down. I'm struck too by just how many flat out closed melodies there are as well. From my impression, Strauss usually string works together with tons of thematic and melodic fragments woven throughout the texture or melodies that wind around without finding a resolution (much like Wagner's concept of infinite melody) rather than a more straight forward melody and accompaniment format.

Am I mistaken or does anyone else feel this way? I mean, I know Strauss' music got a bit more conservative in some respects toward the end of his life but this is an early work.


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## Rogerx

flamencosketches said:


> A good performance of Die Rosenkavalier. Solti is an incredible operatic conductor
> 
> Would it be fair to say this is more "conservative" than Elektra? Perhaps more Wagnerian? I'm not familiar enough with either Wagner or opera in general to make that call. It's good though!
> 
> What gives, no Strauss fans here? Kind of talking to myself :lol:


Not at all, but sometimes just reading is okay.


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## Janspe

I'm seeing a production of _Ariadne auf Naxos_ at the Finnish National Opera soon, so in preparation I listened through the work today. What a stunningly beautiful score! And I mean it literally - so many passages in this works are just really damn _beautiful_. A joy to the ears indeed! Can't wait to see it live.


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## starthrower

Metamorphosen conducted by Klemperer is my current favorite.


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## millionrainbows

My impression of Tod Und Verklarung is that it is radical in other ways, especially the way it ends, on almost a "drone." Everybody here knows how much I love drones. So the ending of this puts Strauss right into transcendental territory for me. Also, the title has irresistible metaphoric suggestion, like "death of the ego." The connection to Alexander Ritter gives the work extra radical cred, since he was the guy who turned Strauss on to Schoepenhauer.


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## millionrainbows

I just listened to Rudolf Kempe in Ein Heldelieben from the remastered Warner 9-CD box. Magnificent! I just noticed at the very end, a reference to "thus Spake Zarathustra." Did you ever hear that?

I also have been listening to his opera "Ariadne auf Naxos." Spectacular! The ending is other-worldly. I amazes me that Strauss was able to create these effects with an orchestra.


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## JAS

millionrainbows said:


> . . . Everybody here knows how much I love drones. . . .


Reading your other post first, I just realized how much this statement explains about your posts in general.


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## starthrower

I'm looking forward to the Kempe box which I hope to receive later next week. I have to admit that other than a few pieces I've had difficulty getting highly engaged in his compositions. But with the Kempe box I hope to get deeper into the music. So far it's been only Metamorphosen, and the Four Last Songs that I've been moved by as a listener.


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## millionrainbows

starthrower said:


> I'm looking forward to the Kempe box which I hope to receive later next week. I have to admit that other than a few pieces I've had difficulty getting highly engaged in his compositions. But with the Kempe box I hope to get deeper into the music. So far it's been only Metamorphosen, and the Four Last Songs that I've been moved by as a listener.


I sincerely hope that Kempe convinces you.


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## adriesba

I have really been enjoying _Elektra _recently.

Thank you, Richard Strauss!


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## PeterFromLA

Listening to the Jessye Norman recording with Masur of the Four Last Songs. I'm still in mourning over her death, though taking solace just now in the incandescent performance she delivered for Phillips back in 1983. It's difficult to imagine now, but before that recording came out, the piece was considered to be "owned" by Elizabeth Schwarzkopf. I don't know anyone who talks about the ES EMI recording now, though I don't doubt there are those who are more taken by her more delicate and understated approach. But Jessye's dramatic soprano completely shifted perceptions of that piece, as did Masur's handling of the orchestra. It was simply a stunning moment in the work's discography, and I can't help but wonder if the composer would have reconsidered how he envisioned the work being sung.

I remain convinced that the third song in the cycle, "Beim schlafengehen," is possibly the most perfectly composed art song in the orchestral literature, it summons a metamorphosis that I have felt from few other songs in the canon. The way that its various sections work together, the haunting violin solo that is picked up by the singer, the crescendo that emerges from that, and the way the orchestra at the song's end mimics an organ, bringing forth a prayerful glimpse of something beyond, it's just carries you away in a manner that only transcendental art can.

There's a youtube clip of Ms. Norman doing the piece with Wolfgang Sawallisch, but it does not surpass her work with Masur four years later.






I remain grateful that Richard Strauss lived long enough to gift us this music.


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## Janspe

PeterFromLA said:


> I remain convinced that the third song in the cycle, "Beim schlafengehen," is possibly the most perfectly composed art song in the orchestral literature, it summons a metamorphosis that I have felt from few other songs in the canon. The way that its various sections work together, the haunting violin solo that is picked up by the singer, the crescendo that emerges from that, and the way the orchestra at the song's end mimics an organ, bringing forth a prayerful glimpse of something beyond, it's just carries you away in a manner that only transcendental art can.


Beautifully put, and I agree with every word. There's very little music that moves me as deeply as does this particular song, and you've aptly described why it has such an enormous effect. Norman's singing on that classic recording is impeccable and remains a reference interpretation for me, as it does for many others.


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## Woodduck

PeterFromLA said:


> Listening to the Jessye Norman recording with Masur of the Four Last Songs. I'm still in mourning over her death, though taking solace just now in the incandescent performance she delivered for Phillips back in 1983. It's difficult to imagine now, but before that recording came out, the piece was considered to be "owned" by Elizabeth Schwarzkopf. I don't know anyone who talks about the ES EMI recording now, though I don't doubt there are those who are more taken by her more delicate and understated approach. But Jessye's dramatic soprano completely shifted perceptions of that piece, as did Masur's handling of the orchestra.


I could certainly talk about Schwarzkopf's recordings of these songs, with their vocal beauty and imaginative intelligence, quite typical of her. I don't think they've been surpassed as interpretive art, but I do concur in finding Norman magnificent in her more majestic way. In fact, I feel no need to listen to any singers but these two in these songs.


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## Handelian

Woodduck said:


> I could certainly talk about Schwarzkopf's recordings of these songs, with their vocal beauty and imaginative intelligence, quite typical of her. I don't think they've been surpassed as interpretive art, but I do concur in finding Norman magnificent in her more majestic way. In fact, I feel no need to listen to any singers but these two in these songs.


I have Schwartzkopf in both her earlier incarnation with Karajan and her later one with Szell. That doesn't stop me loving Janowitz with Karajan - much admired- or my other recordings with te Kanawa and Fleming. When you have a choice of vocal treats, why stick at one?
Funny because these days the Four Last Songs is the only Strauss work I can really say I love.


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## Woodduck

Handelian said:


> I have Schwartzkopf in both her earlier incarnation with Karajan and her later one with Szell. That doesn't stop me loving Janowitz with Karajan - much admired- or my other recordings with te Kanawa and Fleming. When you have a choice of vocal treats, why stick at one?
> Funny because these days the Four Last Songs is the only Strauss work I can really say I love.


Schwarzkopf's early studio recording was with Otto Ackerman. Is there a live recording with Karajan? If you love the FLS, do you know many of Strauss's other songs? There are some beauties. One of my favorite interpreters is the exquisite Elisabeth Schumann, who performed many times with Strauss and whom he adored. She was also a matchless Sophie in _Rosenkavalier._


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## Dimace

Die Vier Letzte Lieder are the most perfect combination of music and poetry in the history of music. Frau Norman & Kurt Masur are the true voice of them, the soul of Richard Strauss and the immortal monument of the very best form of music which is Das Deutsche Lied.


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## Barbebleu

Woodduck said:


> Schwarzkopf's early studio recording was with Otto Ackerman. Is there a live recording with Karajan? If you love the FLS, do you know many of Strauss's other songs? There are some beauties. One of my favorite interpreters is the exquisite Elisabeth Schumann, who performed many times with Strauss and whom he adored. She was also a matchless Sophie in _Rosenkavalier._


I think this might be the Karajan/Schwarzkopf/Letzte Lieder to which hanDeliAn is referring!

Schwarzkopf, Karajan, Philharmonia Orchestra 1956

CD: Urania
Cat: URN 22. 379


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## Handelian

Woodduck said:


> Schwarzkopf's early studio recording was with Otto Ackerman. Is there a live recording with Karajan? If you love the FLS, do you know many of Strauss's other songs? There are some beauties. One of my favorite interpreters is the exquisite Elisabeth Schumann, who performed many times with Strauss and whom he adored. She was also a matchless Sophie in _Rosenkavalier._


Schwartzkopf also recorded them with Karajan / Philharmonia in a recording live 1956 that went unpublished by EMI. I'm not a huge Strauss fan but I have a disc of his songs sung by Damrau.


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## 89Koechel

Woodduck - Thanks for mentioning the somewhat-forgotten E. Schumann!! ... and yes, she WAS a remarkable "Sophie", in that fine, NOT-old recording of Der Rosenkavalier. Have you, or the others, ever-listened to the exceptional Lotte Lehmann, in Schumann excerpts (on CDs, LPs, etc.) of HER own?


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## adriesba

Anyone like Popp's and Janowitz's recordings of _Vier Letzte Lieder_ ?


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## Barbebleu

adriesba said:


> Anyone like Popp's and Janowitz's recordings of _Vier Letzte Lieder_ ?


Yes. xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx


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## Barbebleu

Woodduck said:


> Schwarzkopf's early studio recording was with Otto Ackerman. Is there a live recording with Karajan? If you love the FLS, do you know many of Strauss's other songs? There are some beauties. One of my favorite interpreters is the exquisite Elisabeth Schumann, who performed many times with Strauss and whom he adored. She was also a matchless Sophie in _Rosenkavalier._


Found this in Presto's catalogue

https://www.prestomusic.com/classic...zkopf-karajan-live-at-the-royal-festival-hall


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## BrandonLG

Bruckner & Mahler wrote symphony’s. R. Strauss Tone Poems. Symphonies are the most respected.


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## Kreisler jr

BrandonLG said:


> Bruckner & Mahler wrote symphony's. R. Strauss Tone Poems. Symphonies are the most respected.


It's not as easy as that; it depends on the pieces. And how highly regarded is opera? Until the 1970s or even later R. Strauss was a far more popular and by many more highly regarded composer than Bruckner or Mahler who were rather niche specialities.


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## Bulldog

BrandonLG said:


> Bruckner & Mahler wrote symphony's. R. Strauss Tone Poems. Symphonies are the most respected.


I have no idea where you get that notion, but it's silly and discriminatory.


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## RICK RIEKERT

Bulldog said:


> I have no idea where you get that notion, but it's silly and discriminatory.


Perhaps BrandonLG read this passage from Daniel Grimley's _The Cambridge Companion to Sibelius_:

"Throughout the nineteenth century, after Beethoven, the symphony was principally concerned with notions of breadth and monumentality. Regarded as the highest form of absolute music, the symphony aspired to high levels of motivic unity, formal abstraction and goal-directed (teleological) musical form. Symphonies consciously and powerfully engaged in a dialogue with canonical works of the past. Tone poems, by contrast, are concerned at a fundamental level with the evocation of a particular mood or atmosphere, or with the articulation of an extra-musical narrative or programme. In response to such literary or pictorial subject matter, tone poems are characterised by their freer, innovative approach to musical form, particularly the tendency towards structures that telescope the traditional four-movement scheme of a symphony into a single musical span. Such forms often sacrifice dynamic motivic or harmonic development in favour of radically static moments of sonorous or poetic contemplation, intended as musical depictions of the (super-) natural world. Though as [English musicologist] Hugh McDonald has noted [In The New Grove Dictionary of Music and Musician], tone poems arguably succeeded in elevating instrumental program music to an aesthetic level comparable with that of opera, _they were invariably regarded as inferior to symphonies. The perceived difference in status between the two genres remained unchanged, even as program music flourished at the end of the nineteenth century." _


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## Barbebleu

Bulldog said:


> I have no idea where you get that notion, but it's silly and discriminatory.


It's also grammatically wrong. The plural of symphony is symphonies, not as our worthy colleague suggested, symphony's!


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## Rogerx

adriesba said:


> Anyone like Popp's and Janowitz's recordings of _Vier Letzte Lieder_ ?


Popp is my first love, Janowitz has another one besides the GD on the Philips label with Haitink, try finding that one.


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## Neo Romanza

BrandonLG said:


> Bruckner & Mahler wrote symphony's. R. Strauss Tone Poems. Symphonies are the most respected.


Ummm...this doesn't make any sense. There's no way symphonies are the "most respected" (whatever the hell this actually means) when compared to tone poems, which actually is a poor comparison anyway considering both the symphony and tone poem have completely different musical aims. Also, Strauss, while known for his tone poems, is also known as one of the most influential, and successful, opera composers of the 20th Century. If you ignore this fact, then you obviously don't know much about the composer.


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## Neo Romanza

adriesba said:


> Anyone like Popp's and Janowitz's recordings of _Vier Letzte Lieder_ ?


Well, sure I do. Of course, we're flooded with so many great performances of _Vier letzte Lieder_. Some of my absolute favorites are Schwarzkopf/Szell, Studer/Sinopoli, Janowitz/HvK and a more recent one, Piau/Verdier. Everybody always seems to gush over Jessye Norman's performance with Masur, but, honestly, it sounds labored and not spontaneous enough to me --- there's a spark missing.


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## Rogerx

*Richard Georg Strauss* (German: [ˈʁɪçaʁt ˈʃtʁaʊs]; *11 June 1864* – 8 September 1949) was a German composer, conductor, pianist, and violinist. Considered a leading composer of the late Romantic and early modern eras
Going to spin some of his work today.


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