# Pleasant Surprises: Good Recordings from Singers You Usually Don't Like



## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

What were some times when you've been pleasantly surprised by singers you otherwise prefer not to listen to?


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## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

For starters, here's a nice clip I recall *Seatleoperafan *sharing from a few years ago.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Well for me it would be Sutherland's first recital, which included the Lucia Mad Scene and The Art of the Prima Donna. I didn't like anything else of hers I'd heard before that.


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## MAS (Apr 15, 2015)

Cecilia Bartoli’s singing Vivaldi’s _Sposa son disprezzata. _I find that she’s more agreeable in slow music. I can’t watch her at all.


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## OffPitchNeb (Jun 6, 2016)

Great idea for a thread!

Sutherland in Turandot. Even though the diction is still mushy, the role somehow suits her more than bigger voices.

I avoid Jons Vickers in French opera in general, but I surprisingly enjoy his live Samson et Dalila with Dominguez (she was great too).


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

BalalaikaBoy said:


> For starters, here's a nice clip I recall *Seatleoperafan *sharing from a few years ago.


Thanks. You forget how big her voice could be. I heard her in recital and she stayed in 3rd gear the whole time like Farrell did in recital when I was around 6th grade. Both had huge voices when the decided to use them.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

I greatly enjoy Gwynneth Jones in video recordings but she almost always disappoints in recordings. One exception was a Norma she did when she was 60. You would never expect this from her and it was a one time performance.No, it wasn't flawless BUT I was really surprised at how good she was after decades of Wagner and Strauss. She did the Miro o Norma duet well with all the coloratura. She attempted the D at the end of the big trio but missed. As expected her acting was great. The whole first act scene with Casta Diva was good. If she had stayed with the Verdi, Mozart repertoire of her early career which was really very very good she could have possibly been a truly great Norma. Like all the great Normas she had the big voice necessary for the role. Most of you would hate it but I found it very interesting to listen to.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Seattleoperafan said:


> I greatly enjoy Gwynneth Jones in video recordings but she almost always disappoints in recordings. One exception was a Norma she did when she was 60. You would never expect this from her and it was a one time performance.No, it wasn't flawless BUT I was really surprised at how good she was after decades of Wagner and Strauss. She did the Miro o Norma duet well with all the coloratura. She attempted the D at the end of the big trio but missed. As expected her acting was great. The whole first act scene with Casta Diva was good. If she had stayed with the Verdi, Mozart repertoire of her early career which was really very very good she could have possibly been a truly great Norma. Like all the great Normas she had the big voice necessary for the role.


Does this really sound good to you? I mean, even remotely? 

I do like the birds...


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Forgot to quote.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Woodduck said:


> Does this really sound good to you? I mean, even remotely?
> 
> I do like the birds...


Well I am from Seattle so my taste is questionable at best. I think considering she had sung heavy roles exclusively for 25 years she did surprisingly well. I also like her, which makes a difference. I wouldn't fly to see her in this but would have found the performance interesting to hear. I have a feeling I am going to wish I hadn't admitted to this one to a Callas hungry crowd.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Seattleoperafan said:


> I greatly enjoy Gwynneth Jones in video recordings but she almost always disappoints in recordings. One exception was a Norma she did when she was 60. You would never expect this from her and it was a one time performance.No, it wasn't flawless BUT I was really surprised at how good she was after decades of Wagner and Strauss. She did the Miro o Norma duet well with all the coloratura. She attempted the D at the end of the big trio but missed. As expected her acting was great. The whole first act scene with Casta Diva was good. If she had stayed with the Verdi, Mozart repertoire of her early career which was really very very good she could have possibly been a truly great Norma. Like all the great Normas she had the big voice necessary for the role.


I'm sorry, John, but I found this unlistenable. You posted _Sediziose voce_... _Casta diva_ first, and that was awful too, with almost every note attacked from below and the vibrato so wide you can hardly hear what note she is singing. Really, if her name weren't Gwyneth Jones, she'd have been booed off the stage. She sounds all of her 60 years and more.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Tsaraslondon said:


> I'm sorry, John, but I found this unlistenable. You posted _Sediziose voce_... _Casta diva_ first, and that was awful too, with almost every note attacked from below and the vibrato so wide you can hardly hear what note she is singing. Really, if her name weren't Gwyneth Jones, she'd have been booed off the stage. She sounds all of her 60 years and more.


I wish I could take it down. I don't know why I enjoy it or would dare post this in a Callas hungry crowd.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Seattleoperafan said:


> I wish I could take it down. I don't know why I enjoy it or would dare post this in a Callas hungry crowd.


I don't think it has anything to do with Callas, who never sounded as bad as this, even in those late concerts, which I also find hard to listen to.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Seattleoperafan said:


> I wish I could take it down. I don't know why I enjoy it or would dare post this in a Callas hungry crowd.


It's not a bad thing to post something like this occasionally. We can learn from it. Compare the voices of Schumann-Heink, Lilli Lehmann and Flagstad (all heard recently here) in their sixties. They're obviously no longer young, but the mechanism remains rock-solid, the sound focused and firm, without a suggestion of wobble. Jones, endowed with a truly impressive instrument, developed a wobble early - I remember it in her 1970 Kundry at Bayreuth (the Boulez recording) - and never lost it, although it was less strong at certain times over the years. A great actress but a problematic singer.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Woodduck said:


> It's not a bad thing to post something like this occasionally. We can learn from it. Compare the voices of Schumann-Heink, Lilli Lehmann and Flagstad (all heard recently here) in their sixties. They're obviously no longer young, but the mechanism remains rock-solid, the sound focused and firm, without a suggestion of wobble. Jones, endowed with a truly impressive instrument, developed a wobble early - I remember it in her 1970 Kundry at Bayreuth (the Boulez recording) - and never lost it, although it was less strong at certain times over the years. A great actress but a problematic singer.


 I saw her three times on stage and she was a compelling performer. The voice was ginormous, but even the last time I saw her (as Salome), she didn't sound as bad as she does here. Mind you that was ten years earlier.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Tsaraslondon said:


> Mistaken post.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Tsaraslondon said:


> I saw her three times on stage and she was a compelling performer. The voice was ginormous, but even the last time I saw her (as Salome), she didn't sound as bad as she does here. Mind you that was ten years earlier.


Sorry guys. I can't make it go away. Forgive me for my lapse in taste.


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## MAS (Apr 15, 2015)

There is no shame in liking someone or someone’s singing. She is great in the Chereau *Ring Cycle *and she held it together for the most part - she is very charismatic on stage, plus she had a triumph as the Marschallin in the Carlos Kleiber video (from Vienna or Salzburg?). One critic called her “…extravagantly beautiful...” and she was then, both vocally and physically. Pity that is out of print.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

MAS said:


> There is no shame in liking someone or someone’s singing. She is great in the Chereau *Ring Cycle *and she held it together for the most part - she is very charismatic on stage, plus she had a triumph as the Marschallin in the Carlos Kleiber video (from Vienna or Salzburg?). One critic called her “…extravagantly beautiful...” and she was then, both vocally and physically. Pity that is out of print.


Her performance in that Ring was incandescent to me. She and Callas could stand completely immobile onstage and you can't take your eyes off of them. Few singers could do that without boring you plus both of them were so physically beautiful. Rare to find. I saw her at 15 as Kundry at Bayreuth and was too young to know what I was seeing but still she was unforgettable. That close to her I missed the vocally titanic quality she achieved in an opera house.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Seattleoperafan said:


> Her performance in that Ring was incandescent to me. She and Callas could stand completely immobile onstage and you can't take your eyes off of them. Few singers could do that without boring you plus both of them were so physically beautiful. Rare to find. I saw her at 15 as Kundry at Bayreuth and was too young to know what I was seeing but still she was unforgettable. That close to her I missed the vocally titanic quality she achieved in an opera house.


I agree she is a wonderful Brünnhilde in the video of the Chéreau *Ring*. I remember it being televised here, an act at a time. Those were the days. We don't get anything like that now. 

Of the three times I saw her live, her Marschallin was the most memorable. That was in 1975 at Covent Garden and it was quite a cast; Brigitte Fassbänder as Octavian, Edith Mathis as Sophie, Hans Sotin as Ochs and Silvio Varviso in the pit. It's an awful long time ago now and I can't remember that much about her voice, I do remember that she looked absolutely ravishing though.


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## Revitalized Classics (Oct 31, 2018)

Jose Carreras is only occasionally my favourite in a given role, but there are times like this Butterfly recording (Live, 1975) when everything works and he is just terrific:


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Revitalized Classics said:


> Jose Carreras is only occasionally my favourite in a given role, but there are times like this Butterfly recording (Live, 1975) when everything works and he is just terrific:


He was so handsome and had such a beautiful voice when young. I have sort of a connection to him as I deliver everyday to Fred Hutchinson Cancer Research Center and they saved his life. I didn't like his voice in the 3 Tenor Days.


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## Revitalized Classics (Oct 31, 2018)

Seattleoperafan said:


> He was so handsome and had such a beautiful voice when young. I have sort of a connection to him as I deliver everyday to Fred Hutchinson Cancer Research Center and they saved his life. I didn't like his voice in the 3 Tenor Days.


So much of his singing was effortful but I get why he did it: when his voice was firing on all cylinders it sounds terrific even in heavy parts like Gabriele Adorno in Simon Boccanegra and Riccardo in Ballo in Maschera and he could be very passionate. The top sounded really good in live recordings from the early 70s. Other times it can sound like he is pushing for volume. 

I'd walk barefoot to see a tenor like him live: haven't heard a voice like that in person.


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## vivalagentenuova (Jun 11, 2019)

Nessun Dorma- Franco Corelli - YouTube
I like Corelli in this whole production of Turandot. He uses dynamic shading throughout, instead of simply as a show-off at big moments, and sometimes even sings a line. His typical generalized characterization works well for the archetypal Calaf, and he comes off as movingly heroic and passionate. Easily my favorite performance of his.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

vivalagentenuova said:


> Nessun Dorma- Franco Corelli - YouTube
> I like Corelli in this whole production of Turandot. He uses dynamic shading throughout, instead of simply as a show-off at big moments, and sometimes even sings a line. His typical generalized characterization works well for the archetypal Calaf, and he comes off as movingly heroic and passionate. Easily my favorite performance of his.


Corelli is an interesting case for me. I hardly dare mention it because he excites so much adulation, but, for the most part, I don't really like him, which saddens me, because the voice is obviously magnificent. I just can't take all that sliding around, the sobs and the aspirates, and please keep him away from anything French. 

However I've always enjoyed his Pollione on the second Callas *Norma*. His coloratura is hardly exemplary, but he not only sings with glorious tone, but is much more musically stylish. I always put this down to Serafin's influence, but he is also very fine on the live 1960 *Poliuto *from La Scala, which has Votto in the pit. Maybe _bel canto_ opera gave him less opportunity for over-emoting.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Revitalized Classics said:


> So much of his singing was effortful but I get why he did it: when his voice was firing on all cylinders it sounds terrific even in heavy parts like Gabriele Adorno in Simon Boccanegra and Riccardo in Ballo in Maschera and he could be very passionate. The top sounded really good in live recordings from the early 70s. Other times it can sound like he is pushing for volume.
> 
> I'd walk barefoot to see a tenor like him live: haven't heard a voice like that in person.


I have a soft spot for Carreras. He was a superb José to Baltsa's first Carmen at Covent Garden. Indeed that was one of the most thrilling evenings I've ever spent in the opera house. 

I really like him on all the early Gardelli Verdi operas and I think his Don Carlo on the Karajan set is one of the best on disc. Carlo isn't really a hero and Carreras captures the character's instabilty and desperation better than most. Maybe that role and the Radames that followed were a bit too heavy for him, and the voice started to lose its honeyed beauty soon after that, but up until about the early 1980s it was a very beautiful instrument.


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

Seattleoperafan said:


> Sorry guys. I can't make it go away. Forgive me for my lapse in taste.


Well I'm glad to have heard it. I had no idea that she had ever sung the role and I think it nicely illustrates why Lilli Lehmann said she would rather sing five Brunhilde's than one Norma (I can't remember the exact quote).

In keeping with the thread's theme I'm going to suggest a recording of Jones that surprised me and that's her early assumption of the soprano part in Mendelsohn's Elijah:

Elijah, Op.70: No. 21 - Hear ye, Israel; hear what the Lord speaketh (soprano) - YouTube 

I like Jones in other stuff too and enjoy her Brunhilde in the Chereau Ring. I don't have any of her other recordings other than the Tannhauser where she sings Venus and Elizabeth as there are stronger versions on CD of the Strauss and Wagner operas she sang in.

N.


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## wkasimer (Jun 5, 2017)

Rene Kollo's young Siegfried on the first Janowski recording.
Birgit Nilsson's "Songs from the Land of the Midnight Sun".
Hildegard Behrens' Salome with Karajan.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Tsaraslondon said:


> Corelli is an interesting case for me. I hardly dare mention it because he excites so much adulation, but, for the most part, I don't really like him, which saddens me, because the voice is obviously magnificent. I just can't take all that sliding around, the sobs and the aspirates, and please keep him away from anything French.
> 
> However I've always enjoyed his Pollione on the second Callas *Norma*. His coloratura is hardly exemplary, but he not only sings with glorious tone, but is much more musically stylish. I always put this down to Serafin's influence, but he is also very fine on the live 1960 *Poliuto *from La Scala, which has Votto in the pit. Maybe _bel canto_ opera gave him less opportunity for over-emoting.


My sentiments exacly. Corelli's aversion to attacking notes directly simply ruins his singing of almost everything. Can you imagine any instrumentalist sliding into every note in a phrase, even where you'd never be able to imagine anyone doing it? Attacks from below, portamenti and glissandi are expressive effects, not the default way of articulating Western classical music. Now and then Corelli behaves better and I can enjoy him somewhat, but as long as there are other tenors with fine voices and superior musicianship I'll turn to them in any role you can name. I really feel bad about this, since with a voice as remarkable as his he could have been the paragon of tenorhood his musically less discriminating devotees (apologies to any of those hereabouts) say he was.


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## MAS (Apr 15, 2015)

Elisabeth Schwarzkopf in Mozart’s Da Ponte operas; which were the first ones I’d heard way back when. The *Don Giovanni* (1959) also has Joan Sutherland as the best Donna Anna on disc.


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## BBSVK (10 mo ago)

Seattleoperafan said:


> I wish I could take it down. I don't know why I enjoy it or would dare post this in a Callas hungry crowd.


Please don't ! I sometimes feel so weird, and not only in this forum, for enjoying the singers which other criticise. I don't want to be alone, please !


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## ColdGenius (9 mo ago)

Seattleoperafan said:


> I wish I could take it down. I don't know why I enjoy it or would dare post this in a Callas hungry crowd.


Don't hesitate. I like Cecilia Bartoli.


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## Montarsolo (5 mo ago)

I'm not a big fan of Dieskau because he comes across as haughty and self-righteous. But for some roles that's a plus. His count in Le Nozze and Don Pizarro for example.


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## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

Montarsolo said:


> I'm not a big fan of Dieskau because he comes across as haughty and self-righteous. But for some roles that's a plus. His count in Le Nozze and Don Pizarro for example.


I don't like him because he's a tenor who thinks he's a baritone (today we look over that because it's like 85% of singers in "baritone" roles today).


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## Viardots (Oct 4, 2014)

Montarsolo said:


> I'm not a big fan of Dieskau because he comes across as haughty and self-righteous. But for some roles that's a plus. His count in Le Nozze and Don Pizarro for example.


DFD is a singer whom I don't particularly care for too. But like you said, I find him particularly well suited to Il Conte Almaviva in _Le nozze di Figaro_ in terms of vocal colour, demeanour and manner and he does look the part as well. Apparently he thought so too, such that the role stayed in his stage repertoire for many years.


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## damianjb1 (Jan 1, 2016)

Seattleoperafan said:


> Sorry guys. I can't make it go away. Forgive me for my lapse in taste.


Don't apologise. I've been trying to hear some of Gwyneth's Norma for years so thank you. It's as bad as I imagined it would be. She sure does love to scoop up to the first note of a phrase.


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## damianjb1 (Jan 1, 2016)

MAS said:


> Elisabeth Schwarzkopf in Mozart’s Da Ponte operas; which were the first ones I’d heard way back when. The *Don Giovanni* (1959) also has Joan Sutherland as the best Donna Anna on disc.


I generally don't like Elizabeth Schwarzkopf but her Elvira in the Don G recording is pretty damn good.


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## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

Woodduck said:


> My sentiments exacly. Corelli's aversion to attacking notes directly simply ruins his singing of almost everything. Can you imagine any instrumentalist sliding into every note in a phrase, even where you'd never be able to imagine anyone doing it? Attacks from below, portamenti and glissandi are expressive effects, not the default way of articulating Western classical music. Now and then Corelli behaves better and I can enjoy him somewhat, but as long as there are other tenors with fine voices and superior musicianship I'll turn to them in any role you can name. I really feel bad about this, since with a voice as remarkable as his he could have been the paragon of tenorhood his musically less discriminating devotees (apologies to any of those hereabouts) say he was.


As a boy, when I was first getting into opera, I listened to that and thought "I don't know what that's called, but I'm pretty sure it's wrong. Whatever....I like it anyway". Corelli's singing had this triumphal vitality and scorching bravado that always drew me in. In a world where the arts have tended to draw in the more tenderhearted, my natural temperament of "strength deserves respect, weakness deserves contempt" has not won me many friends, but, admirable or not, it pertains to this topic in that it colors my impressions of various artists. In the case of Corelli, it means that a singer who puts out that kind of power is a singer I can forgive a lot more from. 

PS: without getting going down a rabbit hole of values, I would like to clarify one last point: It is not my belief that strength and sensitivity are not antithetical (such is the view of boys and brutes), rather that sensitivity must be built on a foundation of strength in order to be meaningful. Without that foundation, I have difficulty taking a singer (or for that matter, anyone else) seriously.


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## Montarsolo (5 mo ago)

BalalaikaBoy said:


> I don't like him because he's a tenor who thinks he's a baritone (today we look over that because it's like 85% of singers in "baritone" roles today).


I cant agree with that. He wanted to be a (helden)tenor but it really wasn't possible. He really had a baritone voice. 

However, it does occur. I once listened to Gardelli's Ernani. The bariton there was really a tenor.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

BalalaikaBoy said:


> As a boy, when I was first getting into opera, I listened to that and thought "I don't know what that's called, but I'm pretty sure it's wrong. Whatever....I like it anyway". *Corelli's singing had this triumphal vitality and scorching bravado that always drew me in.* In a world where the arts have tended to draw in the more tenderhearted, my natural temperament of *"strength deserves respect, weakness deserves contempt"* has not won me many friends, but, admirable or not, it pertains to this topic in that it colors my impressions of various artists. In the case of Corelli, it means that a singer who puts out that kind of power is a singer I can forgive a lot more from.
> 
> PS: without getting going down a rabbit hole of values, I would like to clarify one last point: It is not my belief that strength and sensitivity are not antithetical (such is the view of boys and brutes), rather that sensitivity must be built on a foundation of strength in order to be meaningful. Without that foundation, I have difficulty taking a singer (or for that matter, anyone else) seriously.


There are things we allow in our favorite artists (as in our best friends) that we wouldn't tolerate in others. I don't condemn anyone for loving Corelli for his exciting voice and "scorching bravado." Indeed, when he and Birgit Nilsson set to outscorching each other in the last scene of _Turandot_ I'm happy to check my critical faculties at the door, to be picked up on my way out. But as for "strength," it wants to be expressed in different ways in different contexts. Ballet and wrestling are distinctly different physical activities, and the dancer possesses strengths the wrestler can only dream of. No musician confuses strength with brute force or bravado, and what is strength for Calaf is brutality for Faust or Werther. I too got into opera young, and I heard Corelli on Met broadcasts making hash out of such roles, an experience the shrieks of his claque only made more repugnant.

Running over an innocent piece of music and leaving it flattened on the asphalt like a dead squirrel in order to excite an audience isn't my idea of strength. Possessing and exhibiting the musical understanding, vocal control, and absence of ego cravings to give oneself entirely to the task of doing artistic justice to a piece, is.


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## sworley (6 mo ago)

I thought Fleming was a fine Manon and surprisingly free from some of the vocal mannerisms that I sometimes find annoying. She also understood the role better than most of the sopranos since Sills.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Tsaraslondon said:


> I agree she is a wonderful Brünnhilde in the video of the Chéreau *Ring*. I remember it being televised here, an act at a time. Those were the days. We don't get anything like that now.
> 
> Of the three times I saw her live, her Marschallin was the most memorable. That was in 1975 at Covent Garden and it was quite a cast; Brigitte Fassbänder as Octavian, Edith Mathis as Sophie, Hans Sotin as Ochs and Silvio Varviso in the pit. It's an awful long time ago now and I can't remember that much about her voice, I do remember that she looked absolutely ravishing though.


Unlike Callas who looked great both onstage and close up, Jones wasn't memorably gorgeous up close but onstage her features were arrestingly beautiful- god like. I take it to a greater extreme: I look really wonderful from a block away!


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## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

Woodduck said:


> There are things we allow in our favorite artists (as in our best friends) that we wouldn't tolerate in others. I don't condemn anyone for loving Corelli for his exciting voice and "scorching bravado." Indeed, when he and Birgit Nilsson set to outscorching each other in the last scene of _Turandot_ I'm happy to check my critical faculties at the door, to be picked up on my way out. But as for "strength," it wants to be expressed in different ways in different contexts. Ballet and wrestling are distinctly different physical activities, and the dancer possesses strengths the wrestler can only dream of. No musician confuses strength with brute force or bravado, and what is strength for Calaf is brutality for Faust or Werther. I too got into opera young, and I heard Corelli on Met broadcasts making hash out of such roles, an experience the shrieks of his claque only made more repugnant.
> 
> Running over an innocent piece of music and leaving it flattened on the asphalt like a dead squirrel in order to excite an audience isn't my idea of strength. Possessing and exhibiting the musical understanding, vocal control, and absence of ego cravings to give oneself entirely to the task of doing artistic justice to a piece, is.


Fwiw, I thought your original criticism of him was perfectly legitimate (should have included that in the previous post). One of the reasons I made this thread is because of what it reveals about what different people look for and value when it comes to opera.


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