# Wagnerian Opera Composers



## OWATT01 (Oct 17, 2020)

Any recommendations for opera composers following in the footsteps of Wagner preferably yawing similar harmonic language and orchestra. Also please list lesser known names unlike humperdinck and friends.

Thanks


----------



## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

There are a number of operas by his son Siegfried....

Better though (imo) is Chausson's Le roi Arthus.


ETA: I'll move this to the Opera forum, where it will be seen by more experts.


----------



## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

Another relatively unknown Wagner-influenced opera that I like a lot is Boughton's The Immortal Hour.


----------



## Highwayman (Jul 16, 2018)

I`m certainly not an Opera expert but I think Franz Schreker fits the bill.


----------



## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

_Ariane et Barbe-bleue_ by Dukas.


----------



## superhorn (Mar 23, 2010)

At the Bard college summer festival this summer , Leon Botstein and his American symphony orchestra are about to mount a rare production of Chausson's wonderful opera "Le Roi Arthus " ( king Arthur . I'm not familiar with the announced singers in the cast so I can't make any predictions on how good they are, but the production itself is cause for rejoicing . 
Of course, the influence of Wagner, particularly Tristan & Isolde , is obvious in this rarely performed operatic masterpiece , but Chiasson's own distinctive voice is unmistakable . I got to know the opera from the superb Erator recording conducted by the late Armin Jordan, who also did so much to promote lesser known operatic repertoire , with Teresa Zylis -Gara and Gosta Winberg as the guilty lovers and Gino Quilico as king Arthur . If you can find a copy of this recording, grab it !


----------



## superhorn (Mar 23, 2010)

P.S. The Bard festival production of "Le Roi Arthus " has just taken place and Anthony Tommassini gave it a very favorable review in the NY Times , both of the opera and the performance


----------



## HenryPenfold (Apr 29, 2018)

I have a couple of Siegfried Wagner's operas on Marco Polo that I enjoy bigly.


----------



## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

Strauss?...................


----------



## Josquin13 (Nov 7, 2017)

I agree with Art Rock & his mention of Chausson's opera, Le Roi Arthus. 

Debussy's Pelleas et Melisande also has Wagnerian elements, but Erik Satie's influence on Debussy was stronger, considering that it was Satie that suggested the idea for the opera in the first place, and then sent Debussy off to listen to a concert of Indonesian gamelan music. That experience turned out to be a more important influence on Debussy & his music & musical aesthetic than Wagner. Plus, Satie told all the French composers of the day NOT to become influenced by Wagner, but to instead compose distinctly French operas, and most of them seem to have gotten the word eventually...

However, if you listen to Herbert von Karajan's recording of Pelleas et Melisande, the music sounds more Wagnerian in Karajan's interpretation. Mind you, I don't hear much, if any understanding of the gamelan elements in Debussy's opera, via Karajan, which should dominate any performance, in my view. For that you need to listen to Roger Desormiere's recording & maybe, to a slightly lesser extent, Charles Dutoit & Serge Baudo's...

But you can always listen to Karajan's recording and pretend the Indonesian influence isn't all over the score.


----------



## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Debussy himself complained about Wagner's ghost haunting him as he wrote _Pelleas._ The strongest Wagnerian influence was from _Parsifal,_ reminiscences of which are easiest to detect in the orchestral interludes of _Pelleas._ Had the order of composition been reversed, we'd be justified in imagining Debussy's influence on Wagner.


----------



## Josquin13 (Nov 7, 2017)

Woodduck said:


> Debussy himself complained about Wagner's ghost haunting him as he wrote _Pelleas._ The strongest Wagnerian influence was from _Parsifal,_ reminiscences of which are easiest to detect in the orchestral interludes of _Pelleas._ Had the order of composition been reversed, we'd be justified in imagining Debussy's influence on Wagner.


Oh, I'm not denying that there isn't a strong Wagner influence on Pelleas. & I agree with you that it comes primarily from Parsifal. However, I don't think people generally understand or hear the very strong gamelan influence on Debussy's score, as well, and especially within Debussy's use of certain non-western, percussive, interlocking rhythms that can found in the exchanges between the singers & in parts of the orchestral score, too. Debussy whole musical aesthetic changed after he heard gamelan music (at Satie's urging), and especially the second time around, when he finally heard a full gamelan orchestra for the first time at the 1900 Paris Exposition. It profoundly changed how he viewed music from that point on & therefore informed his mature style, which we find in Pelleas shortly thereafter in 1902.

In other words, Debussy may have been haunted by the ghost of Wagner when he composed Pelleas, but the present day Javanese influence was stronger on Debussy's musical aesthetic at the time. As mentioned, the conductor Roger Desomiere understands this influence on Debussy's score better than Karajan, & others. (Though I don't dislike Karajan's recording, it is very good, but not all that French or Javanese sounding...)


----------



## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

Josquin13 said:


> Debussy may have been haunted by the ghost of Wagner


0:22


----------



## lextune (Nov 25, 2016)

Woodduck said:


> Debussy himself complained about Wagner's ghost haunting him as he wrote _Pelleas._ The strongest Wagnerian influence was from _Parsifal,_ reminiscences of which are easiest to detect in the orchestral interludes of _Pelleas._ Had the order of composition been reversed, we'd be justified in imagining Debussy's influence on Wagner.


Debussy's irritated reply to the accusation that 'Pelleas' "lacked melodies" was "Pelleas is nothing but melody", echoing, quite purposefully, the Wagnerian mantra of 'endless melody' (unendliche Melodie).

Source: Debussy - A Painter in Sound, by Stephen Walsh (page 110)


----------



## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Hansel and Gretel has very Wagnerian moments as does Star Wars and even The Wizard of Oz, with it's character themes.


----------



## MAS (Apr 15, 2015)

Seattleoperafan said:


> Hansel and Gretel has very Wagnerian moments as does Star Wars and even The Wizard of Oz, with it's character themes.


Yes, Humperdink''s score is influenced by Wagner's music, without being derivative- a surprise in a "children's" opera. We also usually have a Wagnerian soprano in the role of the Mother and sometimes the Witch (Hexe). One of the videos has Helga Dernesch as Mother, luxury casting indeed.

We also need remember that Hollywood employed many "Classical" composers to write their film scores, including Erich W. Korngold, Max Steiner, Arnold Copland, Igor Stravinsky, Bernard Hermann and Alfred Newman. And, of course, John Williams who is now so well known for his movie scores. My all time favorite is John Barry - *Born Free*, *James Bond* movies, *Dances With Wolves*, *The Lion In Winter*, *Midnight Cowboy*, *King Kong *(1976), etc. 259 soundtracks in in all.


----------



## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

Has anyone mentioned Othmar Schoeck? He's written a number of operas in a generally expressionistic chromatic style.

Don Ranudo de Colibrados, Op. 27
Venus, Op. 32
Penthesilea, Op. 39
Massimilla Doni (opera), Op. 50
Das Schloss Dürande, Op. 53


----------



## MAS (Apr 15, 2015)

SanAntone said:


> Has anyone mentioned Othmar Schoeck? He's written a number of operas in a generally expressionistic chromatic style.
> 
> Don Ranudo de Colibrados, Op. 27
> Venus, Op. 32
> ...


I've only hear his studio *Penthesilea* with Helga Dernesch. Powerful.


----------

