# Three flawless recordings



## Totenfeier (Mar 11, 2016)

I don't have them; I'm asking you to share them.

And I mean flawless. Perfect fusion of composer/composition/orchestra/conductor/execution/sonics/engineering...the whole works.

Shining examples of recorded music absolutely untouched by the imperfection of life and the corruption of man.

Whaddaya got? Three apiece. Bring it.


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## arnerich (Aug 19, 2016)

This is one of the most unexpected and delightful fusions I've ever come across... Bach's double concerto turned into a samba. :guitar:


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

They don't exist!


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## AfterHours (Mar 27, 2017)

Violin Concertos Nos. 1-4, Op. 8, "The Four Seasons" - Antonio Vivaldi (1723) / Adrian Chandler - La Serenissima (2015) 









Symphony No. 7 in A Major - Ludwig van Beethoven (1812) / Manfred Honeck - Pittsburgh Symphony Orchestra (2015) 









Symphony No. 35 in D major "Haffner" - Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart (1788) / Nikolaus Harnoncourt - Vienna Concentus Musicus (2014) 









Keep in mind that it is the *listed* Classical work that I consider a "flawless" recorded performance (or as close to it as so far seems possible), and not necessarily any additional recordings included on the pictured releases.


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## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

Here's my 3. All late Renaissance, and my desert island discs, well recorded and great sound to boot. The Gesualdo has grown on me big time. All music since has been tainted in my view, and I've grown bored of to a certain degree. But not with these.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Phil loves classical said:


> All music since has been tainted in my view, and I've grown bored of to a certain degree.


So are you going to be known as "Phil now merely likes classical"?


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Changes every week.


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## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

Woodduck said:


> So are you going to be known as "Phil now merely likes classical"?


I should change my handle to Phil loves Renaissance..

Actually that's not right. I don't like Palestrina or de Prez. Just lock me up in a closet.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Phil loves classical said:


> I should change my handle to Phil loves Renaissance..
> 
> Actually that's not right. I don't like Palestrina or *de Prez.* Just lock me up in a closet.


_Josquin_ des Prez? _Josquin?_ JOSQUIN??? The Beethoven of the Renaissance?

We'll slip food to you at intervals. You don't quite deserve the death penalty.


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## 20centrfuge (Apr 13, 2007)

I'll give the three that I think are the closest to perfection that I've experienced:

Messiaen: Quartet for the End of Time (Shaham, Meyre, Wang, Chung). This performance is magical. Soulful nuanced playing from all four. I can't imagine a better recording.









Faure: Requiem ASMF Marriner









Prokofiev: Sonata for Piano, no.7 with Pollini. Dynamic, spontaneous sounding, with brilliant execution.


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

Perfection in every aspect is tough to achieve...esp with sound quality and performance - there is always something...


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## tdc (Jan 17, 2011)

I don't think there are perfect recordings, some of my most highly recommended would be Schiff's 2011 WTC, Herreweghe's 1990 St. Matthew Passion, Jochum's Dresden Bruckner symphonies, The Debussy Edition on DG, etc.


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## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

No such thing, unfortunately. The quality of recorded sound today can be extraordinary but it takes a great facility, superb engineer, a producer with a fine ear. The quality of orchestras today is extremely high and there are so many fine ones. Then there's a staggering amount of great music. Sadly, today there aren't the large number of great conductors that used to roam the earth. There are some really, really fine ones: Honeck, Muti, Dutoit, Levine come to mind. But wouldn't it be wonderful to have an orchestra like the Berlin Philharmonic recording a Tchaikovsky 6th on the Reference Recordings label conducted by Koussevitsky?


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

There is no such thing. What we have to remember is that a recording is merely a trick to the ears and brain in that it kids us we are hearing the music as the composer intended it. We are not. We are hearing an approximation - however good it is. That is why a live performance is a completely different experience to a recording.


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

There are always errors in performance or in recording balance....there simply is not enough time at a recording session to edit out every single inaccuracy...some remarkable results can be achieved thru composite live recordings - ie - a final recording using material from a series of live concerts...with these, you tend to get the flow, the continuity of a live performance, with a chance to edit out major mistakes....but there are always some inaccuracies that will sneak thru.


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

The majority of commercial recordings were made in the studio and consist of various parts recorded over a period of a few days and then stitched together after the fact by the recording producer ... not exactly what a representative performance.

There is a story about Klemperer's recording of Petrouchka. The recording sessions were difficult with numerous problems. When the producer managed to produce the final result from the tapes, it was not considered very good and so they persuaded Klemperer that it should not be released, even though he thought that it had come out better. Fast forward now by about 30 years and another producer was auditioning the various takes and came to the conclusion that there was a good performance there, albeit not using the takes that were originally selected, and that was then released on Testament. Both came from the same sessions and takes, each put together by a different individual with very different results. I have to wonder how we can fairly judge any recording which does not come from a single performance.


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## eugeneonagain (May 14, 2017)

All I know is that it can't be a live recording because I have yet to hear one that doesn't have some twit coughing at the most inopportune moment.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Becca said:


> The majority of commercial recordings were made in the studio and consist of various parts recorded over a period of a few days and then stitched together after the fact by the recording producer ... not exactly what a representative performance.
> 
> There is a story about Klemperer's recording of Petrouchka. The recording sessions were difficult with numerous problems. When the producer managed to produce the final result from the tapes, it was not considered very good and so they persuaded Klemperer that it should not be released, even though he thought that it had come out better. Fast forward now by about 30 years and another producer was auditioning the various takes and came to the conclusion that there was a good performance there, albeit not using the takes that were originally selected, and that was then released on Testament. Both came from the same sessions and takes, each put together by a different individual with very different results. I have to wonder how we can fairly judge any recording which does not come from a single performance.


What constitutes a musical performance in the recording studio? Is the recording process itself part of the performance? Does the interpretation of music reside in what the performer does, or in what the listener hears? Is anything other than a continuous performance before a live audience an entirely legitimate rendition of a piece of music?


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## AfterHours (Mar 27, 2017)

Some more...

The very best rendition of Beethoven's 5th (I don't think it exists on an official release aside from Youtube/BBC video)

*Symphony No. 5 in C Minor - Ludwig van Beethoven (1808)*

_*John Eliot Gardiner - Orchestre Révolutionnaire Et Romantique (2016)*_






*Symphony No. 10 in E Minor - Dmitri Shostakovich (circa 1951-1953)*

_*Vasily Petrenko - Royal Liverpool Philharmonic Orchestra (2009)*_










...And the _only_ recordings of _any_ of Mozart's Piano Concertos that I would truly consider "flawless" in every facet. Though several from other artists come close, (imo) these are the only renditions to reach the very highest level of expression, as if from Mozart himself -- and may never be surpassed:

*Piano Concerto No. 9 in E-flat Major "Jeunehomme" - Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart (1777) / Piano Concerto No. 17 in G Major - Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart (1784) / Piano Concerto No. 18 in B-flat major - Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart (1784) / Piano Concerto No. 19 in F major - Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart (1784)*

*Andreas Staier - Concerto Koln (1995)*


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## Polyphemus (Nov 2, 2011)

Reading John Culshaws wonderful book 'Rring Resounding' gives an insight into the detail that went into studio recordings back in the day.

It appears to me that a lot of recordings are now made live in the concert hall. If there are multiple performances then they are all recorded and the stitching together Becca (Post 16) refers to is carried out. 

I have no idea of the preparation that goes into a live performance but I seriously doubt if it would compare with the attention to the minutest detail that Solti Culshaw & Co laboured with in the first studio recorded Ring.


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

Polyphemus said:


> Reading John Culshaws wonderful book 'Rring Resounding' gives an insight into the detail that went into studio recordings back in the day.
> 
> It appears to me that a lot of recordings are now made live in the concert hall. If there are multiple performances then they are all recorded and the stitching together Becca (Post 16) refers to is carried out.
> 
> I have no idea of the preparation that goes into a live performance but I seriously doubt if it would compare with the attention to the minutest detail that Solti Culshaw & Co laboured with in the first studio recorded Ring.


Whose performances are we listening to and buying ... the musicians, the conductor, or the record producer and staff? For most studio recordings it is the likes of John Culshaw, Gordon Parry, et.al. who are making the final decisions, not the conductor. Personally I will accept a few coughing twits in order to get a real performance, just as I do in the concert hall.


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

today's "live recordings" are generally from one live performance of a concert series, with material spliced in from alternate performances to cover a mistake or ensemble problem. generally, tho, one performance, judged the best, will be the basic material.
conductors of the past had different approaches....Toscanini disliked the stop and go business....Reiner, likewise, liked to record whole sections, or entire works straight thru, non-stop. there is an undeniable flow, a unity, a continuity in this approach, which can yield superior results... Ormandy, OTOH, used the "ten measures and stop" approach....with lots of overlapping, then patching all the little pieces together....you can eliminate the big mistakes, but you lose the flow, plus it drives the musicians nuts!!...many conductors chose a more middle approach....not whole sections, but not so chopped up either.
the idea that every mistake can be edited out in the studio is simply false. recording studio time is expensive, and thus limited....starting with the biggest problems, you fix as much as you can until the time/$ runs out.


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## eugeneonagain (May 14, 2017)

Becca said:


> Whose performances are we listening to and buying ... the musicians, the conductor, or the record producer and staff? For most studio recordings it is the likes of John Culshaw, Gordon Parry, et.al. who are making the final decisions, not the conductor. *Personally I will accept a few coughing twits in order to get a real performance*, just as I do in the concert hall.


Oh really? Well we'll see about that. I'm going to attend as many recorded concerts as I can next year and cough like billy-o. Of course, this will make me, by my own definition, a twit. Personally, I am willing to accept this.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

eugeneonagain said:


> Oh really? Well we'll see about that. I'm going to attend as many recorded concerts as I can next year and cough like billy-o. *Of course, this will make me, by my own definition, a twit. Personally, I am willing to accept this.*


Since your fashion sense allows you to appear in public with a cravat and a Santa Claus hat, we can believe this.


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## eugeneonagain (May 14, 2017)

Woodduck said:


> Since your fashion sense allows you to appear in public with a cravat and a Santa Claus hat, we can believe this.


Give it another week and you'll all be dressed like this. I am blazing a trail!


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

eugeneonagain said:


> Give it another week and you'll all be dressed like this. I am blazing a trail!


Bah! Humbug! I'll retire to Bedlam!


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## Animal the Drummer (Nov 14, 2015)

We all have favourites which we rate extremely highly but which we love regardless of objective assessment of their qualities. Off the top of my head, however, I can think of a couple of recordings which I not only love but which also do not seem to me to have any weaknesses:
1. Dennis Brain playing the Mozart horn concertos accompanied by Karajan (yes, Karajan) and the Philharmonia in its heyday; and
2. Martha Argerich's one and only solo Bach recital on DG from the late 70s/early 80s.


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## LP collector (Aug 6, 2016)

On LP this is as close to flawless I have heard. A long hard think for another two.


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## spidersrepublic (Dec 12, 2017)




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## Janspe (Nov 10, 2012)

Disclaimer: I fully admit that the concept of a _flawless_ recording is quite a problematic one. That being said...

The recording of Schoenberg's piano concerto by Mitsuko Uchida, Pierre Boulez and the Cleveland Orchestra is simply sublime. I really do not know how that piece could ever receive a more idiomatic, thoughtful and intelligent performance.


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## Totenfeier (Mar 11, 2016)

Heck148 said:


> Perfection in every aspect is tough to achieve...esp with sound quality and performance - there is always something...


I really appreciate the thoughtful responses on all sides so far. And the Santa Claus hats.

What if I nudge the definition of flawless a bit? What if I ask for a recording _I _can totally relax with, free of (to _me_, of course) _annoying_ instrumental flubs, _bad _miking balance, and _erratic _and _indefensible_ tempi and dynamics _manipulations_ (always bearing in mind, of course, the objective truth that _MY _taste is in the _BEST_ of taste)? Given _that_ definition, does anyone have any other recommendations?

Note: Please note the heavily frivolous nature of my request, and be gentle.


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## bharbeke (Mar 4, 2013)

Here are three to consider.

Tchaikovsky: Swan Lake: Dutoit, Montreal Symphony
Bizet: Symphony No. 1: Bernstein, New York Philharmonic Orchestra
Bruch: Scottish Fantasy: Perlman, Mehta, Israel Philharmonic


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## Tallisman (May 7, 2017)

There* is* such thing. Brendel's recordings of Mozart's piano sonatas can't be bettered. Sviatoslav Richter's recordings of Schubert's
D.958 and especially D.960 are also flawless. I'm also willing to include Klemperer's Deutsches Requiem, even though people think it's too slow.


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

I find the idea that some performance "can't be bettered" to be very depressing. Personally I would like to think that sometime in the near future, better performance(s) will come along - it gives us something to look forward to.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

Woodduck said:


> What constitutes a musical performance in the recording studio? Is the recording process itself part of the performance? Does the interpretation of music reside in what the performer does, or in what the listener hears? Is anything other than a continuous performance before a live audience an entirely legitimate rendition of a piece of music?


When we consider that most classical music was written at a time when recording was not even a concept, would the composer have done things differently if he had studio recording in mind? What would Beethoven have specified for a recording studio to complete a recording of one of his symphonies?

I suspect Beethoven would not like the idea of multiple sessions all strung together, and would have preferred a continuous flow, similar to a live performance. On the other hand, all that studio manipulation is somewhat (remotely perhaps) analogous to Beethoven's repeated fiddling with his compositions until he got it just where he wanted it.

Ultimately the end result is the most important factor. Does it sound good? I take Bernstein's Fidelio from the late 1970s as an example. The studio recording seems to have a better sound quality (at least vs tracks I ripped from the DVD), yet there is far more life in the live performance on DVD, even when just listening to the soundtrack. In opera, I think that live always has the highest potential, since the singers can absorb themselves into the characters they are playing much better in a live performance than in a studio "performance."


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## Brahmsian Colors (Sep 16, 2016)

Maybe one should just settle for what is considered to be at least a "fine sounding" recording of "an inspired performance".


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

Haydn67 said:


> Maybe one should just settle for what is considered to be at least a "fine sounding" recording of "an inspired performance".


Or "an inspired collection of takes as later assembled by the producer" 

Just for the record [sic] while I agree that there are many studio recordings which come out very well but on the few occasions that I have come across a recording of a live performance and been able to compare it to a contemporaneous and very good studio recording, the live performance definitely has the edge by the very nature off it being a complete performance. Let me offer one example amongst many - Sir John Barbirolli's Mahler 6th done with the New Philharmonia - there is a recording of an exceptional live Proms performance which was followed by a not-so-wonderful studio recording done only a few days later. And yes, I can certainly think of extraneous reasons why it might have been the case but it is certainly not uncommon.


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## wkasimer (Jun 5, 2017)

Tallisman said:


> I'm also willing to include Klemperer's Deutsches Requiem, even though people think it's too slow.


I don't think that it's too slow. I think that it needs better soloists.


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## wkasimer (Jun 5, 2017)

Becca said:


> I find the idea that some performance "can't be bettered" to be very depressing. Personally I would like to think that sometime in the near future, better performance(s) will come along - it gives us something to look forward to.


Amen. I've heard, live and on records, lots of performances that are superb, even "matchless". But that doesn't mean that they're definitive or "can't be bettered".


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

Another thought. You could attend a phenomenally great live performance and learn that they recorded it, buy the recording, and then not be satisfied with the recording.


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## wkasimer (Jun 5, 2017)

Fritz Kobus said:


> Another thought. You could attend a phenomenally great live performance and learn that they recorded it, buy the recording, and then not be satisfied with the recording.


Back in the day, I used to record Met broadcasts with my VCR. On those occasions when I attended the same performance, I never found that my recording remotely resembled the real thing.


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## AfterHours (Mar 27, 2017)

Some more ... no offense to those that spend their time on this thread claiming the "impossibility" of an answer  :angel:

*Mass in B Minor - Johann Sebastian Bach (1749)*

_*Philippe Herreweghe - Collegium Vocale Gent (2011)*_










*Piano Trio No. 7 in B-flat Major "Archduke" - Ludwig van Beethoven (1811)*

*Alexander Melnikov - Isabelle Faust - Jean-Guihen Queyras (2014)*










*Piano Quintet in A Major "Trout" - Franz Schubert (1819)*

*Forellen Quintet (2008)*


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## Tallisman (May 7, 2017)

Becca said:


> I find the idea that some performance "can't be bettered" to be very depressing. Personally I would like to think that sometime in the near future, better performance(s) will come along - it gives us something to look forward to.


Perhaps, but for now I shall use 'perfect' in the sense of it designating a performance which I cannot coherently imagine any way it could be bettered while retaining the knowledge that perhaps it could.


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

Tallisman said:


> Perhaps, but for now I shall use 'perfect' in the sense of it designating a performance which I cannot coherently imagine any way it could be bettered while retaining the knowledge that perhaps it could.


Have you considered running for a Parliamentary seat? You have the double-talk down perfectly


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## fluteman (Dec 7, 2015)

Becca said:


> Have you considered running for a Parliamentary seat? You have the double-talk down perfectly


For reasons others have already posted, among many more, I cannot name one flawless recording, much less three. But I will go further: flaws are an essential part of any successful performance, even one on record, when arguably obvious flubs should be edited out as they can become irritating on repeated listening. The more subtle flaws are what give a performance its humanity and keep it from sounding mechanical. The advent of recording did create a need for a higher level of technical "flawlessness". In this regard, it's interesting to read the first part of Artur Rubinstein's autobiography, My Early Years. Rubinstein began his career before even the advent of acoustical commercial recording, which he did not consider worth doing.

However, when electrical recording with its much higher fidelity came along in the mid-1920s, he knew it would play a central role in the music business and couldn't be avoided. Already in his 40s, he took a sabbatical to overhaul his technique, with amazing success. Today, his records still stand up to anything being produced today, even though for most us today our ears are more accustomed to the artificial flawlessness of heavily edited records than to live performance. The same can't be said for many other famous performers of yesteryear such as Edwin Fischer and Alfred Cortot, or even Sviatoslav Richter. Although Richter had.a spectacular technique, his aversion to the recording studio means for the most part one must listen to his live performances, which include their share of clinkers.


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

I've had a good long think about this and out of the countless recordings I have, the only one so far that comes anywhere close to flawless imo, is this.








I reiterate, imo. Feel free to disagree but don't tell me if you do!


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## Blancrocher (Jul 6, 2013)

3 flawless baroque albums:


























Corelli: Violin Sonatas, op. 5 (Avison Ensemble)
Rameau: Imaginary Symphony (Minkowski)
Vivaldi: Double Concertos (Mullova/Carmignola/Marcon)


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## Totenfeier (Mar 11, 2016)

Haydn67 said:


> Maybe one should just settle for what is considered to be at least a "fine sounding" recording of "an inspired performance".


Great work, all! So now it seems to have come down to my asking for your three favorite _reference_ recordings. How's about that?


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## Blancrocher (Jul 6, 2013)

Totenfeier said:


> Great work, all! So now it seems to have come down to my asking for your three favorite _reference_ recordings. How's about that?


Don't back down ... make us all feel the pressure :lol:


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## Totenfeier (Mar 11, 2016)

Blancrocher said:


> Don't back down ... make us all feel the pressure :lol:


All right...we're going to make our own Oumuamua and shoot those three suckers into interstellar space for the whole MULTIVERSE to hear and judge!!! (And yes, I know we've already done that, sort of).


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## Brahmsian Colors (Sep 16, 2016)

Becca said:


> Or "an inspired collection of takes as later assembled by the producer" :


Yes, more truthfully. Offhand, for me at least, Istvan Kertesz's London Symphony performance of Dvorak's Eighth Symphony on Decca seems to fit the bill.


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## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

John Taverner Western Wind Mass by Tallis Scholars. Absolutely gorgeous.


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## karlsoren (Dec 19, 2017)

McCreesh--Messiah
Barenboim--Mahler 7th
Volodos--Rach 3

Each of them has an awful lot of competition--probably over a hundred recordings of each, or close. But for me they have great sound, the pieces are of course at the top of anyone's list of great classical, and the performances are breathtaking. I didn't think any could best Argerich in Rach, but Volodos combines incredible sweetness with awesome power; the McCreesh is ethereal where the angels live, and also powerful when needed, with great soloists. Barenboim takes the Mahler much faster than many other recordings, and that makes the 7th, a piece hard to put together, much clearer.


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## karlsoren (Dec 19, 2017)

You have to think Klemp is too slow. That's a given. But I think his 'too slowness" is part of his genuis. You think it's not moving, but then you notice it's like an enormous bolder rolling down a hill. Nothing will stop it. If you haven't, check out his B Minor mass--the ultimate anti-HIP, but grand.


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## Larkenfield (Jun 5, 2017)

A perfect recording? Of course it exists. Is it that difficult to come up with a recording where the listener can’t imagine any improvements being possible? For starters how about Szell’s recording of the Mahler 4th with the Cleveland Orchestra? Absolute perfection to my ears from first note to last. Perhaps the problem is recognizing it when lightning’s been captured in a bottle, and even the most flawless recording in the world can lose its luster if played to death.


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

I was listening to one of the three (or how ever many it is) earlier: the vinyl record called Barbirolli conducts English String Music. I don't have a way of playing vinyl any more but I recreated the programme. It has Elgar's Introduction and Allegro and his Serenade along with Vaughan Williams' Tallis Fantasia. I don't think I know of any other recordings of these works that comes close. If I was reissuing it as a CD I would include Barbirolli's astonishing (over the top? no) account of Strauss Metamorphosen.


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## Animal the Drummer (Nov 14, 2015)

Larkenfield said:


> A perfect recording? Of course it exists. Is it that difficult to come up with a recording where the listener can't imagine any improvements being possible? For starters how about Szell's recording of the Mahler 4th with the Cleveland Orchestra? Absolute perfection to my ears from first note to last. Perhaps the problem is recognizing it when lightning's been captured in a bottle, and even the most flawless recording in the world can lose its luster if played to death.


How interesting. I don't know the recording, because sadly I've been unable to learn to enjoy Mahler over the years, but the fascinating thing is that Szell reportedly didn't like his stuff either. Against that background, producing a recording this good speaks volumes for Szell's sheer professionalism.


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## pcnog11 (Nov 14, 2016)

Totenfeier said:


> I don't have them; I'm asking you to share them.
> 
> And I mean flawless. Perfect fusion of composer/composition/orchestra/conductor/execution/sonics/engineering...the whole works.
> 
> ...


It is almost impossible to pick a "Flawless" one. Maybe we should discuss those that is near perfection!


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