# Beethoven: Symphony #9 in D minor, op. 125 "Choral"



## science

This is probably the most famous and popular work in the history of classical music.

Naturally, wikipedia has a good article on it.

But how do _you_ personally feel about it? Do you love it? Why?

And the essential question - given that probably hundreds of recordings of it have been made - what are your favorite recordings? And, if you can put it in words, why?

(I will quote relevant posts from other threads here to gather people's comments, insights, and recommendations together.)


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## Art Rock

science said:


> But how do _you_ personally feel about it?


I can't stand it. Really. The three first movements for me are just ok (on par with the eighth, nothing special), the fourth I find just awful. Beethoven produced some of my favourite works (e.g. Symphony 6, Violin concerto, Late string quartets, Lots of piano sonatas), but every time he writes for the voice he loses me. The 9th is the worst, but I also do not like the Missa Solemnis, Fidelio, or An die ferne Geliebte. I have nothing against using voices in classical music in general by the way.


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## Merl

Whilst it's not my favourite LvB symphony (well down the list, tbh) and I don't think, as a complete piece, it hangs together that well its Beethoven so I'm biased. I've always said it sounds like two different ideas mashed together to form a whole. Lots of great recordings of it though. The ones I personally love are:

Leinsdorf /BSO (still my fave. Moderate speeds but snappy and crisp playing) 
Blomstedt / Dresden (biggggg band sound) 
Fricsay / BPO (superb pacing / performance) 
Solti /CSO (builds tension really well) 
Karajan /BPO 63 (benchmark great recording - first complete 9th I owned) 
Munch / BSO (bombastic and exciting to say the least. Others view it as 'obscene'. Lol) 
Gardiner / ORR (love Gardiner's rhythms and brisk pace) 
Szell / Cleveland (great powerful performance) 

Lots of people will say Furtwangler but his 9ths are still not in my faves (Contentious, Merl!) 

Just bubbling under (and all excellent too) Stokowski, Tennstedt, Chailly, Barenboim, Klemperer.........


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## classfolkphile

I like it: it's a impressive work, even though, yes, it doesn't entirely hang together. The last movement does feel a bit tacked on and is a touch bombastic. But I love the vocal quartet and the slow movement is sublime. Favorites include:

Bohm/VPO
Furtwangler/Lucerne
Fricsay/BPO
Stokowski/LSO
Karajan/BPO ('63/'77)


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## Larkenfield

No work of classical music has ever captured the imagination of the world as much as Beethoven's 9th Symphony with its _Ode to Joy _anthem to the Brotherhood of Man. As much as the composer's critics like to grouse about it as being inferior to the rest of the symphony, Beethoven was right in using it as an ideal to hold up to humanity. It was his greatest hope.


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## Manxfeeder

I guess I'm in the minority here. Of course, I hear the first 2 chapters of Genesis in it: the first movement is creation ex nihilo by the Father; the second is the creative power of the Son; and the third is the Spirit of God moving over the waters, stilling the chaos. The fourth is the creation of mankind, the human voice singing the Two Great Commandments, love your neighbor (joy descended from heaven brings us together) and love God (worship the loving Father above the starry heavens). That's subjective, and I don't think LvB thought of it that way. But in that context, it makes sense. 

I have a ton of 9ths, but as of right now, my favorites are Szell and Furtwangler 1942.


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## Merl

The Japanese are obsessed with the 'Big Nine (Daiku) in a tradition allegedly stretching back 100 years. It's a Christmas / New Year tradition. The more singers in the choir the better. I have many of these collected together on the NHK Beethoven Chonicles discs, where guest conductors from around the world would lead the NHK SO. I find it amazing that the Japanese took this extraordinary symphony to heart.


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## KenOC

Merl said:


> The Japanese are obsessed with the 'Big Nine (Daiku) in a tradition allegedly stretching back 100 years. It's a Christmas / New Year tradition. The more singers in the choir the better. I have many of these collected together on the NHK Beethoven Chonicles discs, where guest conductors from around the world would lead the NHK SO. I find it amazing that the Japanese took this extraordinary symphony to heart.


Japan also has over a thousand statues of Colonel Sanders. There must be a connection.


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## Triplets

I am so used to seeing this work praised, that I’m a bit taken aback by other posters having some criticisms of it. It’s a unique experience, one that shouldn’t be used as background music. I don’t like recordings that play it safe (I.e. Marisa Yawnsons and his ilk), because Beethoven was letting it all hang out here, and a recording should convey the risks, even if it fails to surmount them.
Koussevetsky/Boston, Furtwangler, Toscanini lead the way for me. Hogwood and the AAM are my modern alternative


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## MarkW

It is a significant and special work -- neither my favorite, Beethoven's greatest, nor on my list of greatest ever written. Yet you can't ignore it -- nor listen to it casually. The first movement is like rough hewn granite; the second is unique; a good performance of the third absolutely soars; the finale, though hardly flawless, does things no piece of music before attempted. It is arguably one of the most influential pieces ever composed in terms of other composers imitating parts of it.

Personal favorite performance: Munch / BSO.


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## CnC Bartok

So we're saying it isn't that great? Mmmmm.

Familiarity breeds contempt.

Fricsay, Solti (for his gorgeously slow third movement) or Jochum's London recording.


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## mmsbls

Beethoven's 9th is not only my favorite Beethoven symphony, but if pressed, I would place it as the greatest classical work (i.e. my favorite). I don't care much about how well the the movements fit together. I really can't say for this work or for others. For me Beethoven's 9th symphony is roughly 1 hour of continuously sublime music. Every minute not only seems to grip me but appears blissfully beautiful. I have never heard a work that I enjoy as much for so long. 

My first recording was Muti with the Philadelphia Orchestra. I have always loved that, but of course, perhaps that's because it was my first. I also love Solti.


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## Bulldog

Beethoven's 9th is one of my favorite symphonies. Although the first three movements are mighty fine, it's the final movement that totally captures my heart.

Having said the above, I must admit that the last movement of Mahler's symphony no. 4 edges out Beethoven's final movement.


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## Larkenfield

Bernstein abundantly rhapsodizing about Beethoven and the 9th:






He _does_ go on.


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## classfolkphile

Robert Pickett said:


> So we're saying it isn't that great? Mmmmm.
> 
> Familiarity breeds contempt.
> 
> Fricsay, Solti (for his gorgeously slow third movement) or Jochum's London recording.


I think the consensus here is closer to, it's a great, if slightly flawed, work.

That said, it seems for many over familiarity breeds not contempt but a touch of jadedness at times (of which I plead guilty).


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## Konsgaard

classfolkphile said:


> I think the consensus here is closer to, it's a great, if slightly flawed, work.
> 
> That said, it seems for many over familiarity breeds not contempt but a touch of jadedness at times (of which I plead guilty).


The consensus* so far.* Asking one what their opinion of the 9th is, is like asking what they think of Hamlet.


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## SixFootScowl

The Ninth is a monumental work. It sits right there at the top with other masterpieces such as Wagner's Ring and Bach's B Minor Mass.


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## CnC Bartok

classfolkphile said:


> I think the consensus here is closer to, it's a great, if slightly flawed, work.
> 
> That said, it seems for many over familiarity breeds not contempt but a touch of jadedness at times (of which I plead guilty).


..the difference being you are expressing understandable jadedness, not contempt. Chapeau!


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## Iota

This piece certainly seems to produce some diametrically opposed opinions whenever it comes up, particularly the last movement. I can kind of understand someone disliking the last movt, it feels like a bit of a loose cannon, and doesn't mind firing off a few volleys, so if you're not in the mood, love might be a bit hard to come by. : ) 

But I must say I'm not one of those people. The last movement (to mention only that) seems to have such a disarming warmth, even tenderness at its heart, that it feels very human and personal, despite the grand scale. The leaping from one idea to another is thrilling, communicating such an energy, urgency and drama, and some of the vocal writing I find simply luminous. 

Some Beethoven symphonies/concertos can seem at times a little bombastic to me these days (it wasn't always so) but it always sounds right in the Ninth somehow. I think it's a great, moving work, and I'm not sure I find it flawed at all. I don't often listen to the symphonies now, but always pay attention if the Ninth pops up somewhere.


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## Heck148

Beethoven #9 is a great work, and one of the greatest works in all of music....I'm not sure if it's LvB's best symphony - his self-bestowed competition is really stiff!! - but it is a magnificent musical achievement....

My favorite, all-time go-to performance is Reiner/Chicago - a great performance all the way - Reiner makes perfect sense of the last movement, which has so many stirring, uplifting moments it's impossible to cite them all - stunning orchestral execution....great chorus as well...the recording balance is excellent, and so many great details come thru, yet the overall overwhelming sonority is very present as well... Toscanini/NBC is good too, but Reiner takes the prize..


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## Heck148

I'm always a little put off when people down a performance of the Beethoven because they "don't like the tenor", or the soprano is "too strong/weak", "prominent/recessed", or the chorus is "too loud/soft", whatever...
LvB #9 is an orchestra piece - the orchestra plays, really heavy duty stuff, for some 50 minutes!! before a single voice is heard....3 entire, major symphonic movements. of course, the vocal parts contribute hugely to the power and expression of the work...they are extremely important, but they join the continuum, they mix with the flow already established...the work DOES NOT begin with the bass solo!! in fact, the bass solo is previewed by the great bass section soli early in mvt IV....Beethoven was just getting us warmed up, prepping everyone for the vocal entrances...

Yes the vocal contributions on mvt IV are very important, but in the grand scope of this hugely dramatic, expressive work, they are but one element - the same can be said of other great masterpieces - Bach b minor Mass, Verdi Requiem, Wagner "Ring" - one weak voice does not, cannot, kill an overall great performance.....a great effort can indeed enhance a performance [Richard Mayr - Weingartner/VPO/1938] - but so can great orchestral playing as well...for these great masterpieces, that are among humanities greatest achievements, greatest proof of our genius - we have to look BIG - the overall performance.


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## mbhaub

It's over played and over rated, as far as I'm concerned. I've heard it and played it too many times to count. Monumental, original, powerful - sure. Too many orchestras play annually now. The vocal quartet writing is hideous; poorly written is being polite. Some of the parts in the finale are unplayable. And some of it is badly scored. Felix Weingartner was right about the fixes it needs, and a lot of older conductors (Szell, Walter, Toscanini, Leinsdorf, Bernstein, Ormandy, Karajan...) adopted some of them. Has anyone heard the Mahler retouchings? Interesting and worth checking out.


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## KenOC

I have the Mahler retouching. Some very good changes, some less so to my ears.

Comparing Beethoven's 9th to the works it inspired in later years -- it's far more clearly etched, no vague fatness, no striving for "bigness". If it sounds big, it's simply because it _is _big. Every idea is clear and fits into the grand scheme, with an impressive structural clarity.


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## Merl

Triplets said:


> I am so used to seeing this work praised, that I'm a bit taken aback by other posters having some criticisms of it. It's a unique experience, one that shouldn't be used as background music. I don't like recordings that play it safe (I.e. Marisa Yawnsons and his ilk), because Beethoven was letting it all hang out here, and a recording should convey the risks, even if it fails to surmount them.


When I said that it sounded like two ideas mashed together I stand by that. I wasn't being critical. That's just the way it's always felt to me. All of LvBvs symphonies seem to have a logical line through them but I don't feel that in the 9th. It's monumental, it's bold, it's brilliant. I never said I didn't like it! You know me, I'm Beethoven Symphony Obsessive (a condition I refer to as BSO). Of course it's legendary and rightly so. No-one else had ever done anything like it. As far as the Mahler rearrangement is concerned it was more a concert practice of Mahlervs to balance out the strings. Steinberg used it really effectively in his symphony cycle (excellent 9th).


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## realdealblues

*But how do you personally feel about it? Do you love it? Why?*

I feel it's one of the most important works ever written. I do love it and I don't see it as flawed.  It is not my personal favorite Symphony ever written but it is up there and certainly deserves all the credit it receives in my book.

_*And the essential question - given that probably hundreds of recordings of it have been made - what are your favorite recordings? And, if you can put it in words, why?*

_My Top 3:

Bohm/VPO - To me it's simply amazing. It has fantastic playing, singing, pacing and the ending is as exciting as you can get plus it has one of the greatest selection of soloists ever assembled.

Fricsay/BPO - Again, it has everything including some of the clearest choral singing ever put on disc.

Wand/NDR - Probably my favorite paced version and while it may not have the clearest choral or best vocal quartet, it does everything right!

Plenty of others I love and enjoy from a whole host of others but those are probably my 3 favorites.


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## endelbendel

It is possible to hear this one too much, as it is used for ritual and becomes sentimentalized. The great orchs, like BSO which ritualizes it at Tanglewood, always give a meaningful reading. Regardless of interpretive fine points, it is always a visceral thrill to hear those first notes from the basso in the finale.
i fear it will be appropriated for football games; Orff has already been ruined that way.


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## ORigel

Manxfeeder said:


> I guess I'm in the minority here. Of course, I hear the first 2 chapters of Genesis in it: the first movement is creation ex nihilo by the Father; the second is the creative power of the Son; and the third is the Spirit of God moving over the waters, stilling the chaos. The fourth is the creation of mankind, the human voice singing the Two Great Commandments, love your neighbor (joy descended from heaven brings us together) and love God (worship the loving Father above the starry heavens). That's subjective, and I don't think LvB thought of it that way. But in that context, it makes sense.
> 
> I have a ton of 9ths, but as of right now, my favorites are Szell and Furtwangler 1942.


Actually, that can all be first chapter of Genesis.


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## Brahmsian Colors

Currently and chronologically, the 2nd, 3rd, 5th and 9th are my preferred Beethoven symphonies. My top performance choice for the Ninth is Fritz Reiner's with the Chicago Symphony.


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## Heck148

Brahmsian Colors said:


> My top performance choice for the Ninth is Fritz Reiner's with the Chicago Symphony.


Good choice!! amazing performance!! :tiphat:


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## Allegro Con Brio

Manxfeeder said:


> I guess I'm in the minority here. Of course, I hear the first 2 chapters of Genesis in it: the first movement is creation ex nihilo by the Father; the second is the creative power of the Son; and the third is the Spirit of God moving over the waters, stilling the chaos. The fourth is the creation of mankind, the human voice singing the Two Great Commandments, love your neighbor (joy descended from heaven brings us together) and love God (worship the loving Father above the starry heavens). That's subjective, and I don't think LvB thought of it that way. But in that context, it makes sense.


I much appreciate this perspective; thanks for this.

Some fascinating comments in this thread. I have an interesting relationship with the 9th. On one hand I think it is a truly monumental work in the history of music, a piece that challenged and guided the entire notion of Romantic music through the rest of the century. On the other, I do think it is a bit overrated and does not deserve its top tier spot on the TC Most Recommended list. With most of Beethoven's music, my enthusiasm has dwindled significantly since I was first getting into classical. The 9th was the first complete symphony that I ever heard, and it made my jaw drop. I simply had no idea that music could be so powerful, dramatic, and communicate such epic emotions as the first movement (which remains my favorite movement). The electricity of the scherzo, the heaven-reaching lyricism of the Adagio, and the visionary heights of the finale also inspired me. But with repeated listening I can find it to be a bit overdone, and like all Beethoven symphonies I find it needs an extraordinary and individual performance to keep me hooked.

Besides the great Furtwängler performances, truly significant human documents, the stereo performance for me is the late Böhm, notorious for its slow tempi but I think this is a work that needs a grand, epic conception and not a "lean, mean speed machine" like I sometimes can appreciate in the 3rd and 5th (the 6th also needs broad tempi IMO). Böhm engages me throughout, and his vocal quartet is stellar. Besides that I like some of the usual suspects - Karajan ('70s over '60s always for HvK), Solti (one of his few performances that I enjoy), Blomstedt. But I don't get the Fricsay love; there are more modern performances that are more inspired and in much better recorded sound (the timpani sound like they're muffled with pillows and the chorus in the finale is harsh).


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## Brahmsian Colors

Heck148 said:


> Good choice!! amazing performance!! :tiphat:


It SURE is, especially that absolutely phenomenal final movement! *:tiphat:*


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## Heck148

Brahmsian Colors said:


> It SURE is, especially that absolutely phenomenal final movement! *:tiphat:*


Yes, absolutely!! Reiner builds the entire work, the first 3 mvts, to the great finale....which he delivers with a superb sense of drama and clarity....so many thrilling moments!!


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## adriesba

Allegro Con Brio said:


> [...] On the other, I do think it is a bit overrated and does not deserve its top tier spot on the TC Most Recommended list. [...]


Really? Why? I am confounded.


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## Allegro Con Brio

adriesba said:


> Really? Why? I am confounded.


Oh, I think it belongs near the top for sure. Just not as _the_ most highly recommended work in all classical music as it is currently ranked. Just a personal preference.


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## adriesba

Allegro Con Brio said:


> Oh, I think it belongs near the top for sure. Just not as _the_ most highly recommended work in all classical music as it is currently ranked. Just a personal preference.


Ah, I see. If I were making a list, I would probably switch it out with Wagner's _Ring_, but Beethoven's 9th is so iconic that I personally can't argue with it's placement.


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## ORigel

Allegro Con Brio said:


> I much appreciate this perspective; thanks for this.
> 
> Some fascinating comments in this thread. I have an interesting relationship with the 9th. On one hand I think it is a truly monumental work in the history of music, a piece that challenged and guided the entire notion of Romantic music through the rest of the century. On the other, I do think it is a bit overrated and does not deserve its top tier spot on the TC Most Recommended list. With most of Beethoven's music, my enthusiasm has dwindled significantly since I was first getting into classical. The 9th was the first complete symphony that I ever heard, and it made my jaw drop. I simply had no idea that music could be so powerful, dramatic, and communicate such epic emotions as the first movement (which remains my favorite movement). The electricity of the scherzo, the heaven-reaching lyricism of the Adagio, and the visionary heights of the finale also inspired me. But with repeated listening I can find it to be a bit overdone, and like all Beethoven symphonies I find it needs an extraordinary and individual performance to keep me hooked.
> 
> Besides the great Furtwängler performances, truly significant human documents, the stereo performance for me is the late Böhm, notorious for its slow tempi but I think this is a work that needs a grand, epic conception and not a "lean, mean speed machine" like I sometimes can appreciate in the 3rd and 5th (the 6th also needs broad tempi IMO). Böhm engages me throughout, and his vocal quartet is stellar. Besides that I like some of the usual suspects - Karajan ('70s over '60s always for HvK), Solti (one of his few performances that I enjoy), Blomstedt. But I don't get the Fricsay love; there are more modern performances that are more inspired and in much better recorded sound (the timpani sound like they're muffled with pillows and the chorus in the finale is harsh).


I voted for this work because even though it's NOT my absolute favorite of all time and should be a couple tiers down, I love it more than the WTC.


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## ORigel

adriesba said:


> Really? Why? I am confounded.


Because the Grosse Fuge deserves the top spot, that's why!


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## Animal the Drummer

I admire the 9th Symphony as a towering musical edifice, but it's never found its way into my heart. By contrast with some other posters I find the last movement the least uncongenial, but overall there are serried ranks of other works by many composers I'd choose to listen to in preference to this one.


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## mbhaub

If you're really interested in the 9th, here's something you might want to check out:

https://slippedisc.com/2020/12/a-chance-to-see-beethovens-9th-live-from-vienna/


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## Allegro Con Brio

mbhaub said:


> If you're really interested in the 9th, here's something you might want to check out:
> 
> https://slippedisc.com/2020/12/a-chance-to-see-beethovens-9th-live-from-vienna/


Interesting that they're performing the Mahler re-orchestration. Any opinions on whether it was needed/effective/an improvement, or simply an arrogant and horrible revision that should be forgotten? (I haven't heard it)


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## Merl

Allegro Con Brio said:


> Interesting that they're performing the Mahler re-orchestration. Any opinions on whether it was needed/effective/an improvement, or simply an arrogant and horrible revision that should be forgotten? (I haven't heard it)


I call it 'The Tuba 9th'. I dont mind it but I know a few who hate it (especially a certain bassoonist from over the pond - no names). Basically it's just double brass, winds and timpani with additional Tuba. It's the tuba that seems to cause the problem for many. Lol. I can just imagine Mahler thinking about this and saying out loud, "Boys, what this symphony needs is MORE TUBA!"


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## KenOC

I have the Mahler version of B’s 9th conducted by Christjan Jarvi. Some of Mahler’s ideas seem good and actually make the textures clearer. Others are simply bad ideas, to my ear. But it’s hard to tell since the symphony is not really performed or conducted very well.


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## Merl

KenOC said:


> I have the Mahler version of B's 9th conducted by Christjan Jarvi. Some of Mahler's ideas seem good and actually make the textures clearer. Others are simply bad ideas, to my ear. But it's hard to tell since the symphony is not really performed or conducted very well.


Yeah I've got that disc too and it's not a great performance. You can hear the tuba on Steinberg's 9th. From 9mins onwards first movement.


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## mbhaub

I rather like Mahler's edition - he realized, correctly, that when performing the 9th in the large halls of his time, that he needed to increase the volume to compensate. Beethoven was also an untidy composer - some things just made no sense and Mahler corrected some of those problems. The Bridge recording details the changes: extensive alteration of dynamics, adding extra timpani and four more horns, added doublings especially in the woodwinds but also in the strings. There are no changes in the vocal scoring. Most controversial is the addition of new counter melody, such as in bar 51 with the horns in the 1st mvmt. Added countermelodic material is really obvious in III. If you can find it, the Bridge recording with Peter Tiboris conducting the Brno Philharmonic is well worth a listen. Our local pro orchestra has the bad habit of doing the 9th every year - enough!!! For many years I offered the music director this: if he would for a change do the Mahler orchestration I'll write the check for the rental materials. Never took me up on the offer!


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## hammeredklavier

Allegro Con Brio said:


> On the other, I do think it is a bit overrated and does not deserve its top tier spot on the TC Most Recommended list.


You seem to call everything in the top tier spot that's not by Bach or Brahms "overrated", as if those two guys are infallible GODs or something. :lol: Not that it's a bad thing. (Just saying.)



hammeredklavier said:


> Take the C sharp minor from WTC I, for example. Once this subject enters, Bach has the phrase repeated practically every measure (in different registers).
> View attachment 141752


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## JakeWebster

Some people put down the last movement because of the catchiness of the Ode to Joy theme. But I love it. The first and third movements are great too, but the fourth... It may be my fav movement ever.


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## Heck148

JakeWebster said:


> Some people put down the last movement because of the catchiness of the Ode to Joy theme. But I love it. The first and third movements are great too, but the fourth... It may be my fav movement ever.


LvB #9/IV is a tremendous work when done right (Reiner, Toscanini)...really thrilling stuff!!


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## ORigel

JakeWebster said:


> Some people put down the last movement because of the catchiness of the Ode to Joy theme. But I love it. The first and third movements are great too, but the fourth... It may be my fav movement ever.


The second movement is great, too.


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## Simon23

I divide all the recordings of Beethoven's 9th into Furtwangler and everyone else. The main is 1942, 1951 Bayreuth and 1954 Lucerne. From the rest I will select Fricsay, Walter and Klemperer.


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## haziz

Probably my second favorite LvB symphony after #5. and on some days my favorite.

Favorite recordings, in no particular order:

Fricsay/BPO 1957
Karajan/BPO 1963
Immerseel/Anima Eterna.


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## Brahmsianhorn

My essentials list:

Furtwängler/BPO (3/22/42)
Furtwängler/Bayreuth (7/29/51)
Furtwängler/Lucerne (8/22/54) 
Klemperer/Philhamonia (1961 live)
Klemperer/Philhamonia (1957 live)
Fricsay/BPO (1957)
Bernstein/VPO (1979)
Böhm/VPO (1972)
Karajan/BPO (1976)
Bernstein/BRSO (1989)
Solti/CSO (1972)


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