# Tchaikovsky - March Slave - Silly piece?



## PlaySalieri

I have never liked March Slave by Tchaik. I think it is the silliest piece of music he ever composed. Even though I understand the piece well - as a grand slavonic march.

So who likes it and why? and who agrees with me that it's Tchaik's worst piece?


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## OboeKnight

I'm playing it in my orchestra right now. I actually like it quite a bit. Certainly not Tchaik's best piece, but still very enjoyable. I don't think it's silly at all. There are really nice oboe lines near the beginning which I especially enjoy (of course). It's very dark and mysterious building into the full orchestra theme. Why exactly don't you like it?


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## arpeggio

*Morton Gould & 1812 Overture*

I have posted this story in another thread. It appears that it may be worth repeating here.

A music enthusiast approached Morton Gould about the _1812 Overture_. He asked Gould if he thought _1812_ was a bad piece of music. Gould responded, "Yes. But I wished that I had composed it."


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## JCarmel

'Fists-Up,' Stomanek!...First you 'rubbish' one of my fave operas, Eugene 1-Gin...and now your knocking my fave Overture?!

But in your favour, you _are_ featuring one of my fave actors on your Avatar, from one of my favourite films...so that balances things up. So....we'll call it 'Quits?!'
And, I wouldn't want to hurt a deluded old man in a mental hospital?! (judging by your Avatar?!)

JCarmel


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## moody

It isn't silly at all ,Serbia was fighting the Ottoman Empire and Russia as usual supported the Serbs.
The Russian Musical Society commissioned Tchaikovsky to write something to support a concert in aid of the Red Cross Society.
The march is very programmatic of events and features as "1812" does the Russian National Anthem .
Now the "1812" is very boring except for the end...rather like the dreadful most recent "Titanic" film...and I am sure that it is Tchaikovsky's worst composition.
All this information is to be found online.


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## Tapkaara

It is often mentioned as being "not Tchaikovsky's best," just like the 1812 Overture. So what? Do all composers, event the great ones, have to crank out masterpiece after masterpiece after masterpiece? What's wrong with the occasional "lighter" fare that was never meant to be in the same league as a symphony or concerto anyway?

I have always enjoyed it. Great tunes, great orchestration, rousing and FUN. Even classical music enthusiasts should have a little fun, every now and again.


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## mactaffi

1812 and Marche Slave are not, I grant you, *great* works of art, but how many youngsters, on hearing them as their *first* classical music (along with, perhaps, the Lone Ranger, which they find to be William Tell), go on to explore further. Don't be so "po-faced" and go with the flow!


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## Cheyenne

Tapkaara said:


> I have always enjoyed it. Great tunes, great orchestration, rousing and FUN. Even classical music enthusiasts should have a little fun, every now and again.


Good point! I am a little embarrassed about how much I have recently gotten into Debussy's Danse Sacrée et Profane, but who cares? I can handle a little _Wellington's Victory_ or _March Slave_ now and then, in those cheerful moods when even Mendelssohn's Italian symphony is too much. This is one of the reasons I like Schnittke so much, he sure had a lot of fun: _(k)ein Summernachtstraum _is hilarious. That said, very understandable that you appreciate this piece less. (Yes, yes, I am reiterating Tapkaara's point and not particularly well, but I am in one of those cheerful moods I spoke of, so to battle it is!)


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## Bone

It's not often that a patriotic piece rises to the level of greatness. Both 1812 and Marche Slav fulfilled a nationalistic function that art music does from time to time. Neither is a great work, but both were/are essential to understanding the role of artists and their works in the context of nationalism.


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## moody

Tapkaara said:


> It is often mentioned as being "not Tchaikovsky's best," just like the 1812 Overture. So what? Do all composers, event the great ones, have to crank out masterpiece after masterpiece after masterpiece? What's wrong with the occasional "lighter" fare that was never meant to be in the same league as a symphony or concerto anyway?
> 
> I have always enjoyed it. Great tunes, great orchestration, rousing and FUN. Even classical music enthusiasts should have a little fun, every now and again.


Who in particular is this supposed to be aimed at?


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## Tapkaara

moody said:


> Who in particular is this supposed to be aimed at?


I wasn't sure I was aiming at anybody in particular. Did you feel personally offended by what I said?

My point is that cloassical music fans often seems ashamed to admit that they actually like pieces such as Marche slave, 1812 Overture, etc. What's shameful to me is that people feel they need to hide this! If works like these were good enough for Tchaikovsky, they are certainly good enough for me.

Classical music is and should be considered a serious art form. However, no matter how serious the piece, no matter what, I get great pleasure...or dare I say FUN out of listening to classical music. It is one of my favorite ways to recreate. Therefore, lighter, "less serious pieces" like, say, the Romanian Rhapsody no. 1 of Enescu may not give me the same depth of emotion as Sibelius's 7, but that's OK. It doesn't have to be heavy and soul-searching all the time. In classical music, one should openly make room in their hearts for the light music as well as the heavy/serious.


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## moody

mactaffi said:


> 1812 and Marche Slave are not, I grant you, *great* works of art, but how many youngsters, on hearing them as their *first* classical music (along with, perhaps, the Lone Ranger, which they find to be William Tell), go on to explore further. Don't be so "po-faced" and go with the flow!


Yes,but the "William Tell" Overture is a very good piece of music.
I don't know why I'm bothering with this,it's not even my thread.
Maybe I just reject weighty nothing verdicts being handed down from anybody.
Like it or not "1812" is not good, but if it attracts new fans in fine...but that has nothing to do with anything.
Incidentally going with the flow is not a good idea, but thanks for your advice which I do not really need ,but I'm sure you'll find somebody who might welcome it.


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## Tapkaara

Bone said:


> It's not often that a patriotic piece rises to the level of greatness. Both 1812 and Marche Slav fulfilled a nationalistic function that art music does from time to time. Neither is a great work, but both were/are essential to understanding the role of artists and their works in the context of nationalism.


What about Finlandia??


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## joen_cph

It is silly, I liked it when I was 11, as one of the first pieces known to me. But recordings matter too, I remember vaguely that Ferdinand Leitner/DG gets the piece going a bit more than the others heard.

EDIT: heard the Leitner. He´s good at capturing the Oriental mood, but could be speedier and there is at least one case of belated percussion playing. Probably better recordings available.


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## moody

Tapkaara said:


> I wasn't sure I was aiming at anybody in particular. Did you feel personally offended by what I said?
> 
> My point is that cloassical music fans often seems ashamed to admit that they actually like pieces such as Marche slave, 1812 Overture, etc. What's shameful to me is that people feel they need to hide this! If works like these were good enough for Tchaikovsky, they are certainly good enough for me.
> 
> Classical music is and should be considered a serious art form. However, no matter how serious the piece, no matter what, I get great pleasure...or dare I say FUN out of listening to classical music. It is one of my favorite ways to recreate. Therefore, lighter, "less serious pieces" like, say, the Romanian Rhapsody no. 1 of Enescu may not give me the same depth of emotion as Sibelius's 7, but that's OK. It doesn't have to be heavy and soul-searching all the time. In classical music, one should openly make room in their hearts for the light music as well as the heavy/serious.


I would have if it were aimed at me,it would be a matter of teaching your grandmother to suck eggs.
For heaven's sake nobody has said anything different,the OP made a point that I for one answered
I listen to lots of "unimportant" music ,if that's a proper description---but it's not of course.
Military marches,New Orleans jazz,Neapolitan songs,Bing Crosby, Ella Fitzgerald,Santana,Viennese waltzes and Polkas,etc,etc,
,But not 1812,I cannot stand the interminable winding and winding that goes on .
But as I've said already on a different thread ,nobody needs to justify their taste and if I wished to listen to only "very serious " stuff that's my business and my choice and there are such people here.
Incidentally,altho' I have seen snide remarks about "Finlandia" I think it's great stuff.


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## PetrB

You'll have a hard time nominating this one, as his 1812 takes the prize for schlock cheese. Tchaikovsky acknowledged it as horrible, and much regretted having written it. 

From the horse's mouth, then, the prime nominee is the 1812 overture.


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## PlaySalieri

The word silly was not mine - but used by quite a notable musical director in London after a performance recently - though I do concurr with his opinion. I know one should try to listen in context - I can't help feeling that Tchaik's heart was not in this one - rousing support for the Serbs to order was probably not of much concern to him. It seems to me that Tchaik took all the slav/nationalistic tunes and cobbled them together in the worst possible taste. 
I do like Tchaikovsky by the way - the capriccio Italien is superb - so are the last 3 symphonies, piano works, concerto - violin concerto, quartets - I just think Marche Slave is tripe.


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## PlaySalieri

Oh yes I did always call Marche Slave Tchaik's answer to Beethoven's Wellington's Victory.


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## DrKilroy

I like it. I like its main melody. 

Best regards, Dr

PS I kind of like the 1812 Overture, too.


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## Ramako

Of course it's silly, but it's good fun.

If you are looking for Tchaikovsky's worst (IMO), you need look no further than 'Fatum'. Balakirev (to whom it was dedicated) gave a somewhat negative opinion of it (to say the least) - and it was fortunate that Tchaikovsky had already been turned off it, despite having initially been very enthusiastic. It just goes to show that a composer's heart being in the composition doesn't always do the trick.



> Your Fatum has been performed [in St. Petersburg] reasonably well ... There wasn't much applause, probably because of the appalling cacophony at the end of the piece, which I don't like at all. It is not properly gestated, and seems to have been written in a very slapdash manner. The seams show, as does all your clumsy stitching. Above all, the form itself just does not work. The whole thing is completely uncoordinated.... I am writing to you with complete frankness, being fully convinced that you won't go back on your intention of dedicating Fatum to me. Your dedication is precious to me as a sign of your sympathy towards me-and I feel a great weakness for you.
> 
> M. Balakirev-who sincerely loves you.


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## TheVioletKing

This post has made really ashamed of loving both Slave and 1812 . What's wrong with them, how are they any less than any of his other works, just because they are no as "emotionally filled" and are more lighthearted doesn't mean that they are terrible. Feel free to hate or consider me a terrible music fan but I think that the are great works .


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## KenOC

TheVioletKing said:


> Feel free to hate or consider me a terrible music fan...


The mob is on its way to your place now with pitchforks and torches...


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## EddieRUKiddingVarese

Don't know if anyone has pointed out the fact the Tchaikovsky's Marche Slave in B-flat minor, Op. 31, was a commissioned orchestral piece from for a concert in aid of the Red Cross Society for the benefit of wounded Serbian veterans from the Serbian war with the Ottoman Empire.

Sorted like the LiveAID of its day........


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## Tapkaara

TheVioletKing said:


> This post has made really ashamed of loving both Slave and 1812 . What's wrong with them, how are they any less than any of his other works, just because they are no as "emotionally filled" and are more lighthearted doesn't mean that they are terrible. Feel free to hate or consider me a terrible music fan but I think that the are great works .


It's shameful that anyone made you feel shame for following your heart and liking a piece of music!

There is nothing wrong with them. They are lighter works than Tchaikovsky's symphonies or concertos, for example, and not meant to be anything earth-shatteringly profound. Regardless of any lack of intrinsic profundity, they are enjoyable pieces and ask nothing more from the listener to accept them for what they are.

You have every right to enjoy these works just as much as the guy who can't stand them because they are "fluff." Despite what you may have been told, there are no rules in music appreciation. There is only music and your appreciation of it.


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## userfume

it is a lot of fun to play! So many fffs


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## moody

TheVioletKing said:


> This post has made really ashamed of loving both Slave and 1812 . What's wrong with them, how are they any less than any of his other works, just because they are no as "emotionally filled" and are more lighthearted doesn't mean that they are terrible. Feel free to hate or consider me a terrible music fan but I think that the are great works .


Nobody says that you should not listen to them. The original question was regarding the silliness or otherwise of Marche Slave,somehow the 1812 got into the picture and the consensus was and has always been that it is pretty poor.
But there is nothing better for showing off your hi-fi--I have the famous Dorati version and there has never been anything like that.
But I don't sit down in the evening to listen to it and it's the last pandemonium bit that mostly ever gets played.


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## moody

EddieRUKiddingVarese said:


> Don't know if anyone has pointed out the fact the Tchaikovsky's Marche Slave in B-flat minor, Op. 31, was a commissioned orchestral piece from for a concert in aid of the Red Cross Society for the benefit of wounded Serbian veterans from the Serbian war with the Ottoman Empire.
> 
> Sorted like the LiveAID of its day........


If you happen to read this thread you will notice the answer is "yes".


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## moody

Tapkaara said:


> It's shameful that anyone made you feel shame for following your heart and liking a piece of music!
> 
> There is nothing wrong with them. They are lighter works than Tchaikovsky's symphonies or concertos, for example, and not meant to be anything earth-shatteringly profound. Regardless of any lack of intrinsic profundity, they are enjoyable pieces and ask nothing more from the listener to accept them for what they are.
> 
> You have every right to enjoy these works just as much as the guy who can't stand them because they are "fluff." Despite what you may have been told, there are no rules in music appreciation. There is only music and your appreciation of it.


You are inventing a situation that does not exist. What has Violet King been told ,he makes no mention of that and I see no post telling him to what he should listen.
The question was regarding March Slave,but if anybody wants to spend time listening to 1812 so what,I should think they will end up bored to death.


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## Tristan

I've always liked Marche Slave, but then again, a lot of the classical music I like would probably get dismissed as "silly" by many people. I certainly don't rank it on the same level as his 4th symphony or anything like that and I know sometimes the context of these pieces can ruin them, but I don't usually let that affect my opinion of the piece.


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## Novelette

I never had anything against the March Slave, but it never caught on with me.

Considering Tchaikovsky's other works, it seems a weak point of course, but there's a time and place for it... Like when you need to wake up in the morning. :tiphat:


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## drpraetorus

Please, what is wrong, musically, with March Slav? Yes, it's bombastic and nationalistic, but then, so are many works. What's most important is that, on it's own terms, it works and works quite well.


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## Tapkaara

drpraetorus said:


> Please, what is wrong, musically, with March Slav? Yes, it's bombastic and nationalistic, but then, so are many works. What's most important is that, on it's own terms, it works and works quite well.


Agreed. And by the way, I love your name and avatar. Bride of Frankenstein all the way, baby!


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## OboeKnight

Just finished listening to Marche Slave.....and....I....I....I enjoyed it. Don't shoot!

Haha. It is ridiculous to let people make you feel self-conscious of the pieces you enjoy. If you like it, you like it. So, like it with confidence.


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## LouisMasterMusic

This is one of the great pieces of grand nationalistic music, and particularly by Tchaikovsky. He uses the orchestra (particularly the brass and percussion) in such a way to paint a vivid picture.


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## afterpostjack

I really like this piece, I like the melodies and the orchestration.


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## JCarmel

Thanks for the Reminder...I haven't listened to it in ages! Now then Sir John....let's be having-you?!!
It's paired on my recording with another preferred piece of E Minorism, too...Tchaik's 5th

Hope I can find a jpg somewhere of the pairing with The Halle orchestra....









that's the best I can find!


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## realdealblues

I find both 1812 & Marche Slave very enjoyable. Why? No other reason than I like the way they sound.


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## RoyChamps

PetrB said:


> You'll have a hard time nominating this one, as his 1812 takes the prize for schlock cheese. Tchaikovsky acknowledged it as horrible, and much regretted having written it.
> 
> From the horse's mouth, then, the prime nominee is the 1812 overture.


Hello. You made me create my account just for your comment. Please tell me when and where you saw that Tchaikovsky regretted having written 1812.

In response to the thread, actually I like hearing it and most of all, playing it! (as well as 100% of musicians I 
know...)

Personal 'taste' exist, of course and I respect it. It's not a Symphony, it's an ouverture with the purpose of beeing violent, so I think that he made it

Greetings,
Rui Campião


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## Celloissimo

Marche Slave and the 1812 aren't Tchaikovsky's greatest works, but they're catchy and they have thus helped introduce many to classical music with their bombastic and moving themes.


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## elgar's ghost

His output is sprinkled with various works that perhaps come into the pot-boiler category (especially during the 'marriage' years when he often struggled to keep the creative juices flowing) but I don't find them any the less enjoyable because of that. Not every piece he wrote has to be top-notch in order for them to still be likeable. Better to write an incidental work that's damned with faint praise rather than a bunch of failed operas that have rarely stood up under close scrutiny, perhaps?


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## starthrower

March Slave? Is that a command? I like the Marche Slav.


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## starry

In light of this thread I thought I'd have another listen and really enjoyed reaquainting myself with it. It hangs together so well and shifts from mood to mood convincingly for me. In that sense I think it is better and less forced than the 1812 overture may seem. Although I suppose an amazing performance of that could change my mind.



moody said:


> Now the "1812" is very boring except for the end...rather like the dreadful most recent "Titanic" film...and I am sure that it is Tchaikovsky's worst composition.


No way is it his worst. I also don't think the end is the highlight, it's just the most famous part. The middle part has some lovely variety and I thought you'd appreciate that considering you say you like the William Tell Overture so much.


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## Lord Lance

It's not a silly piece of music. Its one of my favorite composition from Tchaikovsky. Its grand, has a memorable melody and achieves the march feel quite well. [As the name would suggest.]


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## Radames

stomanek said:


> Oh yes I did always call Marche Slave Tchaik's answer to Beethoven's Wellington's Victory.


It's way way way better than Wellington's Victory. It's fun and tuneful. I like it. Like a jelly donut.


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## SONDEK

I love the SLAVONIC MARCH by TCHAIKOVSKY and consider it one of his orchestral masterpieces. 

I easily prefer it to the 1812, which I simply cannot warm to. 

Perhaps a more interesting question is... What version of the SLAVONIC MARCH is your favourite?

I adore this piece so much that I have sat and done the rounds. It is actually very well represented on SPOTIFY, but often the notes leave a lot to be desired. This is where I use SHAZAM to tell me in seconds exactly who's playing. 

So which version do I prefer? Well...

My go-to reference has always been ZUBIN MEHTA / LAPO. 

ANDRE PREVIN : LSO also did a nice version, as did STEPHEN GUNZENHAUSER /SPO

Recently I have enjoyed...

CHRISTOLPH POPPEN / DRP

YUTAKA SADO / DSOB (Perhaps one of the best except Sado starts to prematurely race a little too much before the end..)

What's you fave????


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## Meyerbeer Smith

This is supposed to be bad music?


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## bharbeke

I have enjoyed the Pletnev/Russian National Orchestra version. I'll try out the Mehta sometime. Thanks for the recommendations, SONDEK!


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## Heck148

I like "Marche Slav". 
Tchaik's best piece?? who cares?? 
Try Reiner/CSO reccording - they go after it like it's the greatest thing ever written....most convincingly.
I like "Finlandia", too...esp as presented by Toscanini/NBC. 
Great conductors can really make the "potboilers" come to life.


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## MusicSybarite

It's fun. Music doesn't have to be always too academic nor serious.


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## Pugg

NickFuller said:


> This is supposed to be bad music?


OP didn't like it in 2013


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## SONDEK

Heck148

Many thanks for the REINER/CSO recommendation. I'm about to give it a listen!


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## SONDEK

As an aside, I find that The SLAVONIC MARCH is quite a telling piece when it comes to revealing orchestral control.

The crescendo followed by the most unusual 'swirling' effect seems to be extremely difficult for some orchestras to control - even if they get the remainder of the piece right.

Played well, the effect is astonishing and one can feel quite caught-up in the swirling action. Heady stuff!

Played less well, and the whole crescendo section can sound plodding and ponderous.

What a test!!!

(Very few readings actually pull it off well, IMHO...)


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## SONDEK

But one thing is for certain...

Played well, the SLAVONIC MARCH certainly seems to reflect that the players are having the time of their lives!

(Probably true of any good piece...)

How many of us feel like jumping up and conducting in fresh air when the long awaited coda finally arrives?

(ME ME ME!)

Mehta and his LAPOians always leave me all smiles!


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## SONDEK

I just finished listening to the REINER/CSO account of the SLAVONIC MARCH. 
(Thanks to Heck148 for this solid referral...)

This is an extremely well-played reading, all captured in glorious 'Golden Age' ANALOG recording quality. No overly annoying tape hiss and no top-end frequency limitations, just glorious music. The RCA boys really knew their stuff back in the day.

REINER and the CSO get the control factor spot-on in the complex crescendo and its subsequent swirls. Nice.

Likewise they get the coda right - and play like their lives depend on it.

My only reservation relates to the choice of tempo for most of the piece. It's just a shade or two too slow overall, to really hold my interest. I can imagine the interest of first-time listeners starting wane - and I have to confess that I was tempted to not sit through the whole piece, for this reason.

This pacing issue comes mostly right as Reiner gathers his forces for the finale, but slower development does represent the lion-share of the piece, so to my ears, this account does not earn a first place recommendation. 

Others's mileage will surely vary - particularly where it is this reading that introduced the piece to listeners, many encores ago.

For me its a solid 7/10 musically - and almost at demonstration class from a sound perspective.

Not my first choice, but a cracker nonetheless... Just my highly subjective 10-cents worth.

-SONDEK


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## superhorn

"Wellington's Victory " by Beethoven has usually gotten a pretty bad press and Beethoven admitted he wrote it purely because he needed the money , but it's still a fun piece as far as I am concerned . The mighty Ludwig should be forgiven for this musical sin .


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## Pesaro

I am new here. I was a fairly active member of the Amazon forum but it has been shut down. I enjoy the Marche Slave of Tchaikovsky but only if the performance is a good one. My favorite is by Stokowski. He keeps the music moving and plays it with plenty of passion. On a scale of 1 to 10. I would give the music a 5, the Stokowski recording a 10.


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## Pugg

Pesaro said:


> I am new here. I was a fairly active member of the Amazon forum but it has been shut down. I enjoy the Marche Slave of Tchaikovsky but only if the performance is a good one. My favorite is by Stokowski. He keeps the music moving and plays it with plenty of passion. On a scale of 1 to 10. I would give the music a 5, the Stokowski recording a 10.


Great to see a new member dive in right away, welcome to Talk Classical Pesaro.


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## Pesaro

Pugg,

Thanks for the kind words.


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## Heck148

SONDEK said:


> I just finished listening to the REINER/CSO account of the SLAVONIC MARCH.
> (Thanks to Heck148 for this solid referral...)
> Not my first choice, but a cracker nonetheless... Just my highly subjective 10-cents worth.
> -SONDEK


I don't know that Reiner takes an esp slow tempo for Marche Slav....seems pretty much mainstream in that regard - it is after all - Moderato in modo di Marcia Funebre [funeral march]...

But a special highlight of Reiner's splendid recording occurs in the full orchestra outbursts of the main tune - notice how the orchestra, led by the great trumpet section, "pops" each note of the melody - a bit of accent, right at the front edge of the beat...this gives the music a wonderful high-stepping, knee-lifting swagger that has great forward momentum...that was a real Reiner talent - to support a slow tempo and provide tremendous forward motion/momentum - another prime example is Wagner - Prelude to Meistersinger I...this is truly "Maestoso" [Majestic]..Reiner's Meistersingers are not in a hurry - they know they are the big Kahunas, and they are not to be rushed.....but the forward momentum is inexorable, not to be denied or halted....


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## SixFootScowl

stomanek said:


> I have never liked March Slave by Tchaik.* I think it is the silliest piece of music he ever composed.* Even though I understand the piece well - as a grand slavonic march.
> 
> So who likes it and why? and who agrees with me that it's Tchaik's worst piece?


I used to like it and it earwormed me so hard that now decades later it will pop into my head at times. It is not a bad piece, just there is so much more that is better.


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## Bill Cooke

Pesaro said:


> I am new here. I was a fairly active member of the Amazon forum but it has been shut down. I enjoy the Marche Slave of Tchaikovsky but only if the performance is a good one. My favorite is by Stokowski. He keeps the music moving and plays it with plenty of passion. On a scale of 1 to 10. I would give the music a 5, the Stokowski recording a 10.


I love the Stokowski version, too. I'm not sure how many times he recorded this work, but the one I have and enjoy is on the Decca 1964-1975 set.


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## Merl

Compared to that snoozefest, Manfred, Marche Slave is a masterpiece.


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## Roger Knox

Pesaro said:


> I am new here. I was a fairly active member of the Amazon forum but it has been shut down. I enjoy the Marche Slave of Tchaikovsky but only if the performance is a good one.
> 
> 
> 
> Welcome -- I agree. The silliness may be an association with early piano lessons.
Click to expand...


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## mbhaub

Well, I for one don't consider Manfred a snoozefest. Played well with a conductor who lets it all hang out it's really a thrilling piece. There are some recorded versions where the conductor thinks he's doing Bruckner or Mahler, but there are some that are just terrifically exciting. It's another work that really defies recording, too. The dynamic extremes are so wide that few of us can afford a system that makes the proper impact. With a fine orchestra in a good hall, it's astonishingly exciting to listen to. Chicago is doing it soon with Bychkov, but I was not impressed with the recent recording.


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## SONDEK

Heck148 said:


> I don't know that Reiner takes an esp slow tempo for Marche Slav....seems pretty much mainstream in that regard - it is after all - Moderato in modo di Marcia Funebre [funeral march]...


Heck148

Yeah, I just wanted to say that so much of this is subjective.

It is incredible how the first favourite version that we accessed a certain piece with can set the bar for all other versions.

As you know, I went and had a good listen to your recommended REINER/CSO version of the MARCHE SLAV - and found it a bit slow, myself. Other than the pace being a bit slow for me, it is a cracking reading.

On the other hand, you feel that REINER's pace is perfect!

This is obviously your go-to-version so can I ask you to sample my go-to-version from MEHTA/LAPO from the late 1970s.

My guess is that in contrast, you will find teh MEHTA/LAPO version a bit fast and uncomfortable.

So it's all totally subjective and - as stated earlier - highly influenced by our first impressions.

I'm keen to read your own subjective impressions.


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## SONDEK

Merl said:


> Compared to that snoozefest, Manfred, Marche Slave is a masterpiece.


Whilst I don't consider the MANFRED a snoozefest - great word BTW :lol: - I have never been able to warm to the MANFRED. In fact, I consider it to be TCHAIKOVSKY's least accessible symphony.

But I am less likely to find myself snoozing through it, than just simply losing interest for the lack of really memorable or inventive sections.

I guess that's what you meant by snoozefest. Not so much sleepy music - but lacking in interesting content. Like a big Yawn!

If so, I have to agree.

( I'm now expecting a slamming by the Tchaikovsky aficionados... :scold::scold::scold: )

Anyway, back to more righteous fare... MARCHE SLAV!


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## SONDEK

mbhaub said:


> Well, I for one don't consider Manfred a snoozefest. Played well with a conductor who lets it all hang out it's really a thrilling piece. There are some recorded versions where the conductor thinks he's doing Bruckner or Mahler, but there are some that are just terrifically exciting. It's another work that really defies recording, too. The dynamic extremes are so wide that few of us can afford a system that makes the proper impact. With a fine orchestra in a good hall, it's astonishingly exciting to listen to. Chicago is doing it soon with Bychkov, but I was not impressed with the recent recording.


MBHAUB

Can you recommend your favourite version of the MANFRED.

I'd like to give the MANFRED another chance to impress me.

( Perhaps I am missing out? )


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## SONDEK

I see STOWKOSKI's SLAVONIC MARCH has been recommended a few times above.

I'm not sure I have included this account in my survey, so it's up next.

(Yeah, I'll probably head for his latest DECCA reading...)

Let's see...


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## SONDEK

Well, I just listened to a fine account that I believed to be STOKOWSKI conducting the BRUSSELS PHILHARMONIC ORCHESTRA - from an album entitled AN EVENING WITH LEOPOLD STOKOWSKI.

It was a fine account that got most things right - IMHO - save for a few brief inserts of quirky timing, such as when the conductor was gathering forces in preparation for the first climax.

Also, to be honest - the playing was probably not quite as polished and on-tune as some of the more famous orchestras.

All-in-all, a worthwhile outing that brought a smile - and definitely held my interest - if not an absolute top recommendation.

Subsequent investigation reveals that this reading is actually quite modern and conducted by RICHARD EGARR; a new name for me.

I still need to hunt-down a STOKOWSKI original!
(Embarrassed... )


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## Merl

SONDEK said:


> .......... I am less likely to find myself snoozing through it, than just simply losing interest for the lack of really memorable or inventive sections.
> 
> I guess that's what you meant by snoozefest. Not so much sleepy music - but lacking in interesting content. Like a big Yawn!
> 
> If so, I have to agree.


That's exactly what I meant.


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## Heck148

SONDEK said:


> Heck148
> Yeah, I just wanted to say that so much of this is subjective.
> It is incredible how the first favourite version that we accessed a certain piece with can set the bar for all other versions.


Reiner/CSO was not my first exposure to the work - Ormandy/Phila was....



> My guess is that in contrast, you will find teh MEHTA/LAPO version a bit fast and uncomfortable.


I've not heard Mehta/LAPO, but I suspect I'd enjoy it very much....those Mehta/LAPO recordings from the 60s were wonderful, overall - spectacularly recorded [with a lot of Decca spot-miking ], but most enjoyable, nonetheless.


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## SONDEK

Heck148 said:


> Reiner/CSO was not my first exposure to the work - Ormandy/Phila was....


Heck148

I have to confess that I am a HUGE Ormandy/Phil fan. And can you believe it? I've never heard their version of the SLAVONIC MARCH!

(I'm gonna remedy that today...)

Another old war-horse that I adore is RIMSKY's SCHEHERAZADE. I reckon Ormandy and his Philadelphian's truly shine in this percussive Oriental piece too. Their STEREO version (circa 1962) is one of my absolute faves. The sad thing is that it is really hard to find any Ormandy/Phil outings on a really nice and original vinyl pressing. Despite the wonderful music, the US-made Columbia pressings from this period are some of the poorest I have encountered. Just so noisy. 
(I usually try for a Dutch import...)

Anyhoo... back to the SLAVONIC MARCH!


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## SONDEK

I've just had a good listen the ORMANDY/PHIL version of the Slavonic March.

(Thanks for the good steer HECK148...)

The recording - delivered impressively by SPOTIFY in its highest resolution output (320 k/bits) - simply states ORMANDY/PHIL and wears the RCA VICTOR SILVER SEAL badge on the album cover. Based purely on the sound quality, I would guess that this was an early 1960s outing for Eugene and his Phillies, but happy to be corrected on this.

I gotta say, colour me impressed!

It was no shock to me that the ORMANDY/PHIL account is so passion-filled ( Passion-Philled  ) as passion is exactly why I am such a huge fan of this team.

Frankly, it started fractionally slower than I would ideally like - not unlike the REINER/CO version that HECK148 referred me to earlier - and definitely a bit slower than my go-to MEHTA/LAPO version. But as the event unfolded, I was held in a very firm grasp.

As mentioned earlier, ORMANDY was a legend for extracting the passion from his Phillies and this reading is no exception. This recording also highlights just how balanced and consistent ORMANDY was in his chosen tempos - right across the piece. Only when the horses were turned toward the homeward stretch, did I feel that ORMANDY loosened the reins just a wee bit too early. I far prefer to feel a very slow and lingering rest-up (before the finale kicks-in) leaving me in drooling anticipation of the forces about to be unleashed.

That one question-mark over the slightly early homeward gallop aside, this is a marvelous version. At no time did I feel bored or find my mind wandering - as it often does with less satisfactory readings. 

Best of all, the boys at RCA have really delivered in the sonics department. The sound is simply superb!

I would rate this version in the top 3-5 versions I have heard. High praise indeed!

Given the chance, this is a version that I believe could win many over to the dark side - to join us SLAVONIC MARCH fans.

Check it out!


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## SONDEK

I must mention that I finally managed to track down and listen to a STOKOWSKI/LSO reading of Tchaikovsky's mighty Slavonic March.

I'm not certain if this is the version that many are referring to - and strongly recommending - earlier in this thread.

The notes confirm that it was recorded by DECCA in PHASE4 STEREO, a format that I have always thought delivered nice sonic results for DECCA. It was obviously a live recording, as the audience raved appreciatively at the close of the finale. Oddly, the album cover also states "STOKOWSKI IN REHEARSAL".

Very quickly into the piece, STOKOWSKI's reputation for idiosyncratic embellishments was well and truly bearing up.

I could learn to live with the STOKOWSKI embellishments, but I found his timing to be all over the place. Sadly, there were times where sections were played so quickly, it almost felt like the music could accompany some ridiculous comic silent movie. 
(Think Harold Lloyd...)

I know if sounds harsh, but that's what I heard.

If this is the only version that some have ever heard, I could understand why Tchaikovsky's majestic Slavonic March has been tragically dismissed forever as 'SILLY MUSIC, by some'.

So my advice for any newbies: Avoid this particular version.

I realise that it is possible that I simply listened to the wrong STOKOWSKI version, but wanted to report what I heard in a frank and fear-free manner. 

Also, my opinions are highly subjective, so feel free to clobber me, with your own... I can take it!


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## Heck148

SONDEK said:


> I've just had a good listen the ORMANDY/PHIL version of the Salvonic March.
> (Thanks for the good steer HECK148...)
> The recording - delivered impressively by SPOTIFY in its highest resolution output (320 k/bits) - simply states ORMANDY/PHIL and wears the RCA VICTOR SILVER SEAL badge on the album cover. Based purely on the sound quality, I would guess that this was an early 1960s outing for Eugene and his Phillies, but happy to be corrected on this.


If it's early 60s, it's Columbia, early 70s RCA - he recorded it 3 times. from Ormandy discography site:
http://www.geocities.jp/ormandy/orchestra.html

Marche slave [M] *51/12/16 *(C)** 
Marche slave  64/04/27 (C) 
Marche slave  72/02/17 (R)

** = my first exposure to the work.



> Another old war-horse that I adore is RIMSKY's SCHEHERAZADE. Ormandy and his Philadelphian's truly shine in this percussive oriental piece too. Their STEREO version (circa 1962) is one of my absolute faves.


Interesting!! My 2 favorite versions of Scheherazade are Reiner/CSO, and Ormandy /Phila....I believe we are both referring to the 
1962 version, featuring Anshel Brusilow as vln soloist:

same site - http://www.geocities.jp/ormandy/orchestra.html :
Scheherazade [M] 47/10/31,11/01 (C) Hilsberg 
Scheherazade [M] 53/12/23 (C) Krachmalnick(?) 
*Scheherazade  62/02/11 (C) Brusilow *
Scheherazade  72/02/29 (R) Carol 
Scheherazade [S:LIVE] 74/10/27 Carol (R) DPL1-0094(US)/LP


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## SONDEK

Heck148

This is really great intel. Appreciated.

That's quite an Aladdin's Cave of Wonders, that website huh? Fantastic!
(Bookmarked...)

Based upon this intel, it appears that the ORMANDY/PHIL version of the Slavonic March I reviewed above was the 1972 RCA version. This explains why the excellent sound was low on tape-hiss.

It seems you and I have similar tastes in the handling of orchestral fare. I would guess that you have a soft-spot for SZELL/CO and BEECHAM/RPO too, perhaps?

You've surely whetted my appetite and I simply must hunt-out ORMANDY's two earlier versions on the Columbia label. Oddly, I usually prefer the Columbia version to the RCA - despite a bit of tape-hiss - so it should be an interesting encounter.

As for the RIMSKY SCHEHERAZADE, yes REINER/CSO made this a real demonstration piece. Agreed. And the sonics are spectacular even by modern standards.
(Perhaps I should say 'especially by modern standards', as I find many modern recordings lacking in bite and texture...)

There are two other stunning SCHEHERAZADE versions I would like to recommend.

Firstly, the indomitable BEECHAM/RPO version. Aside from the subway train faintly audible in the background, it takes a lot of beating.

Secondly - and perhaps more interestingly - the NAXOS 8.550726 version by ENRIQUE BATIZ / PHILHARMONIC ORCHESTRA, LONDON. IMHO it is one of the great modern accounts. Highly percussive and downright explosive.
(Miss it at your peril!)

But yes, ORMANDY/PHIL still rules, in our house.

And now, back to the virtues of Tchaikovsky's Slavonic March...


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## SONDEK

I thought I'd post a quick update on some recent SLAVONIC MARCHING...

I tracked down the ORMANDY/PHIL 1962 version of this fine old Tchaikovsky war-horse and gave it a good listen.

As indicated in earlier posts, ORMANDY and his PHILIES are a firm favourite with this listener. Sadly, I found their 1962 version of the SLAVONIC MARCH to come off altogether a bit slow and ponderous. Not a bad version, but not my first pick by a long stretch.

To my ears it sounded like they were having a rare off-day. With such a body of orchestral winners to their credit, I think we can afford them that.

For other listeners interested in this typically winning team, IMHO the ORMANDY/PHIL RCA version from the 1970s is far superior in this work.

Good MARCHING to you!


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