# Asking about Classical: A Beginner's Perspective



## sesquipedal (Dec 2, 2011)

Greetings from Canada. I could make a rather long story about how I came to this forum and my life in an autobiography, but in this case, I think it's better just to get to the point :tiphat: The point being a long story non-the-less! I have read a bit into this place, and I see a lot of open-minded posts throughout. Sad to say not many forums have that..

I've loved most forms of music all my life. I am sure most can say that though 
I currently study at the University of Alberta, 5th year masters student in East Asian studies. 

One genre I had yet to truly delve into would be classical. With it's vast listing of sub-genres, it is a bit hard to say "hey, I'll get into that". 

So I did a google search, and as horrid as I am in that respect I managed to find the surface to scratch on. "100 masterpieces" or something generic like that. 

and to be honest I didn't really like it. 

Don't get me wrong - all of the pieces are truly remarkable in that so much time, effort, coordination, and of course love went into these pieces. That is why I already love classical (I have been playing saxophone from a very early age, but slowly crept to jazz instead of classical), and deeply respect (and admire) the people who help it sound out to the world.

However it was almost all the severely cliched pieces out there. I was trying to find music I could study too. I was so right in that I was able to concentrate the entire time with Classical music playing. I could swallow Mozart's most famous, Bach's over-used, and Beethoven's over-played everywhere. However when Mendelssohn's Wedding March came on, I nearly cried in that I know absolutely nothing about classical music, and the music gods are laughing at me from their thrones, at my feeble attempt to enter their realm.

The classical I want to hear, is the not super-popular variety.
I can look on wikipedia and find hundreds of composers, but, which ones are decent? Which ones have enough credibility for me to find them rather easily?
I have no clue where to begin, and all I want is to appreciate good music, while studying, taking breaks to reflect, and perhaps re-kindle my passion for ensembles.

So, I ask thee internets, who are some excellent composers not in all the movies, games, and every-day cafe's. 

If I can find at least 10 with a decent amount of music available, perhaps then I can truly start my journey inward to classical music. 

I am not looking for a top 20, not looking for the best of the best. 
I just would like to know some good people, that will not spark memories of all the media that has corrupted them when I listen with all I am.

Or obviously, if this question has already been asked, if you could kindly direct me there, I would appreciate it. However in that case, terribly sorry for failing at using the search function.

Thank you either way, and for reading this message.


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## Dodecaplex (Oct 14, 2011)

Believe it or not, even the famous "overused" composers have an unbelievably large number of obscure pieces that you've never heard of. Mozart isn't just about Eine Kleine Nachtmusik. Beethoven isn't just about the Moonlight Sonata. Bach isn't just about the Toccata and Fugue. And classical music isn't about good obscure music, it's simply about good music.

So, what types of pieces are you particularly fond of?


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## regressivetransphobe (May 16, 2011)

You need more Scriabin in your life.


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## Klavierspieler (Jul 16, 2011)

You need Schumann, listen to his 2nd Symphony and Kreisleriana.


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## Dodecaplex (Oct 14, 2011)

Well, in that case, you need more Alkan.


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## samurai (Apr 22, 2011)

If you have access to *Spotify* and *YouTube, *I 'd suggest that you might start with the complete symphonic cycles of Brahms {4 in all} Sibelius {7 total} and Nielsen {6}. Without knowing exactly what your tastes or preferences might be as regards a particular era or style of classical composers, I don't think you would fare too badly with the 3 composers I have cited. Whether they are "over-used" as you put it, or cliched, I have no idea; I just know that since immersing myself fairly recently in this genre, they are among my favorites and "go to" composers whom I really can enjoy. Hope this helps a little. BTW, Welcome to a great forum!


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

This ancient thread has some lists of lesser-known (or "unknown") composers -

http://www.talkclassical.com/4623-favorite-unknown-composers.html

Sounds like you are out for more alternative composers, so the lists given by people on this thread, some of those members still very active on this forum, may be of help.

Of course this can be like random and like crap-shooting. I find that lesser known composers give me less "payback" than the mainstream composers. My tastes are mainly mainstream, though I don't always listen to the standard "warhorse" repertoire.

In any case, try out some of those composers on those lists, some of their stuff must be on youtube or spotify, if you've got that where you are.

Also don't be afraid to go to the composer guestbooks section of this forum and check out any names that are unfamiliar to you.

There are many ways to skin a cat, as they say, don't be discouraged if a lot of classical music sounds cliched to you. I think basically all of it is like a mix of the mundane and the sublime. The finest composers, or the ones that appeal to me at least, get the mix between the two 'just right.'

Happy hunting!...


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## sesquipedal (Dec 2, 2011)

Dodecaplex
Very good point (and apologies), I was naive to say that it's the composer I was looking to diverge from.
It's those mainstream songs that I am not wishing to hear through. 
At first I thought perhaps it is because I am bored/tired of them, or that I just know so little about classical that I can't appreciate them yet. However I started to realize that a over-used piece doesn't let me fully explore what it is trying to say - the emotions in the movies and other media create some of the emotion for me already. 

As for fondness of pieces, 
Well, 

regressivetransphobe
I researched Scriabin, quickly, and the first piece that came up was Etude Op.8 No.12 Welte-Mignon.
It blew my mind. I feel as though my virginity to classical music has been lifted, and I can see the value in it. So simple, yet, so, so complex. A lot has to do with perception at this point I am sure, but that doesn't mean I don't already love it. 
I'm listening to it over and over, it just says so much in so short a time - if only it lasted more than 2 minutes.

There are already quite a few recommendations on here, so I will start again tomorrow with more time.


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## Guest (Dec 2, 2011)

sesquipedal said:


> ...that will not spark memories of all the media that has corrupted them when I listen with all I am.


Hard to say. We don't know how far you yourself have been corrupted, and so hear the media in the music. (I have friends who, whenever they hear something unfamiliar, immediately liken it to movie music--and make elaborate scenarios to what they're hearing.

I shouldn't have said friends. I should have said acquaintances. Former acquaintances.:devil:

Anyway, here's a few idears.

Gluck. I doubt if the media have used any more than the "Dance of the Blessed Spirits." Try the whole opera, _Orfeo ed Euridice._ Or better yet, _Iphigénie en Tauride._

Berlioz. There are some dead famous snippets you might have come across, but generally even Berlioz warhorses don't get as overworked as Beethoven's or Tchaikovsky's. _Benvenuto Cellini_ is mostly not even known by Berlioz fans, yet it's wildly beautiful and inventive. If you're not up for more opera (Berlioz idolized Gluck, by the way, and you can hear it), then give the less famous than _Symphonie fantastique_ but more mature and interesting _Roméo et Juliette_ or _La damnation de Faust_ a listen.

Bruckner. I know of at least one thing the media's ripped off of Bruckner. Grrrr!! So maybe start with a symphony that hasn't been botched. Number 2, maybe. Or 5.

Mussorgsky. Yeah, some really overused things in his oeuvre. But some not so much, as well. I'd recommend Abbado's performance of _Khovanchina._

Schoenberg. A bogey of many classical listeners. Ignore them. I'd say dive right in with _Variations_ for orchestra.

Stravinsky. Maybe too famous. But I don't think _Les Noces_ has been used. Or _Movements_ for piano and orchestra. If you've heard any of Orff's _Carmina Burana,_ you might think of that from time to time when you listen to _Les Noces._ _Les Noces_ was the piece Orff ripped off the most blatantly to make his score. Stravinsky's ballet is so much better, it probably can survive the thefts from it.

Bartók. Not a big favorite of Hollywood or TV. So just about anything will probably do just fine for you. _Music for strings, percussion, and celesta_ is dynamite. And _Miraculous Mandarin_ (get the whole ballet) is volcanic.

Varèse. A lot of short works. Probably doesn't matter where you start. The Lyndon-Gee recordings on Naxos are fine (and cheap).

Cage. Has a lot of detractors online, you may find. Ignore them. There's some early stuff that even the haters can enjoy, like the Sonatas and Interludes for prepared piano, but I'm going to recommend the new CD by the Percussion Group Cincinnati on Mode. It's unique in that it's the first "original instruments" recording of Mr. Cage's music, using original 78 records and 78 variable speed players. The performances are as good as you could ever wish for, too, so if you don't like this, it's certainly not Percussion Group Cincinnati's fault!!

You asked for ten, and I'm gonna give you ten. But this is where it becomes really difficult for me. Most of my listening is of music from the past twenty years, so there's so much for me to chose from. I'm gonna go with someone you might not find in your corner record store, but hey!, who has corner record stores any more. (In Portland, OR, I have two, one two blocks away, one four. Wow. Heaven.)

Mark (also spelled Marc) André. The first thing that comes up on Amazon when you type Mark Andre in is fine.

ENJOY!!


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

some guy said:


> ...
> 
> Bartók. Not a big favorite of Hollywood or TV. So just about anything will probably do just fine for you. _Music for strings, percussion, and celesta_ is dynamite...


That piece was used in Kubrick's_ The Shining_.

I think the piece you were thinking about Orff appropriating from Stravinsky was _Oedipus Rex_. Igor called Carl's_ Carmina Burana _"neo-neanderthal," I don't think he appreciated the rip off/rehash, it's a great quote I think, he had a very caustic tongue for sure.

Better watch out, some guy, some of the best post-1945 composers are being appropriated by Hollywood, which isn't a bad thing given it will give them more exposure. The entire score to _Shutter Island i_s music of that sort - eg. Cage, Feldman, Penderecki, Schnittke, Cage, Ligeti, etc. feature. I'm thinking of picking up the 2 disc soundtrack of the film, it looks good.

Otherwise I think your list was not a bad one overall. With Schoenberg it's difficult to tell what will make a newbie "click" with him. For me it was his _Violin Concerto_ with Hilary Hahn playing. For Cage, his_ In A Landscape_ has garnered positive responses from a few people new to him on this forum, so I'd add that.

I could also throw in a few myself, eg. Janacek, Lutoslawski, Sculthorpe, the list can go on and on...


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

For Schoenberg, I recommend the 2-CD set on EMI which includes both chamber symphonies, 5 pieces for orchestra, variations for orchestra, and the sextet version of Verklarte Nacht. A great introduction.

I second the Varese. This music kicks ****, and will never bore you. The Boulez CD on Sony is great and cheap, or just get the Chailly 2 disc set on London and you're all set.

It's no secret I'm totally into Schnittke these days. The cello concertos are superb! No.1 is a big, dramatic work, but no.2 on Sony performed by Rostrpovich is deep and sublime. Lutoslawski's cello concerto is another favorite.

Keep going with Scriabin too. Great music!


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

Dodecaplex said:


> Believe it or not, even the famous "overused" composers have an unbelievably large number of obscure pieces that you've never heard of. Mozart isn't just about Eine Kleine Nachtmusik. Beethoven isn't just about the Moonlight Sonata. Bach isn't just about the Toccata and Fugue. And classical music isn't about good obscure music, it's simply about good music.
> ...


I'd add that it's good to know a wide variety of things as possible. Or get to know them, be exposed to them. You don't know where things can lead. Or potentially lead. It's good to hear a lot of things to sift through & form your own tastes, leanings, preferences, etc. But of course it takes time, a lot of time. So I suppose this is why sesquipedal is asking for our help. To narrow things down. Which is even more difficult online than in face to face communication. But not impossible.

In short, these things we give are just props, it's best to kind of hunt around and sniff around. The listener may well find things they don't know on those "best of" and "greatest hits" compilations. Even things like Tchaikovsky's _Capriccio Italien_ may not be that well known to many newer listeners. Or things like Bizet's _L'Arlesienne_ suites. Or Ravel's_ Le Tombeau de Couperin_, etc. etc. etc...


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## kv466 (May 18, 2011)

Mozart's not such a bad place to start. Welcome to the forum.


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## Klavierspieler (Jul 16, 2011)

You might Like Janacek's Sinfonietta, Taras Bulba, On an Overgrown Path or other works of his. Beethoven's late piano sonatas (28-32) are not quite so 'popularized'.


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## superhorn (Mar 23, 2010)

Try the six quirky symphonies of Danish composer Carl Nielsen, plus his clarinet and flute concertos, the overture to his comic opera Maskarade , and orchestral works such as Pan& Syrinx, Helios overture, Fantasy overture, a trip to the Faeroe islands, the woodwind quintet,etc Great stuff !
Also, the four symphonies of French composer Albert Roussel, the Suites from the ballet Bacchus& Ariane , the ballet The Spider['s Feast , and the Suite in F for orchestra. 
Spiky, pungent and colorful music !
The four symphonies of Swedish composer Franz Berwald , a contemporary of Berlioz and Rossini . Plus his piano concerto. 
The symphony no 1 of Russian composer Mily Balakirev , plus his symphonic poem Tamara.
Plus the Symphony in C major of Paul Dukas , and the ballet La Peri .
The cello concerto of Russian composer Nikolai Myaskovsky , plus his symphonies 6 and 8. 
The Prokofiev symphonies 2,3,and 6. The ballet "Chout" (the buffoon). Scythian suite. 
Karol Szymanowski of Poland : Harnasie ballet , symphonies 1,2,3,4. 
English composer Arnold Bax : Symphony no 3. Symphonic poem Tintagel .
Franz Schmidt : Symphony no 4. Bohuslav Martinu : Symphony no 4. 
Swedish composer Wilhelm Stenhammar : Symphonies 1,2 . Piano concertos 1,2.
Serenade in F for orchestra .
English composer Sir Michael Tippett : Symphonies 1,2,3,4. Piano concerto.
Triple concerto for violin,viola and cello . 
English composer Sir Arthur Bliss : A Color symphony . Piano concerto.
Englsh conposer Havergal Brian : Gothic symphony .
Hans Pfitzner : Three preludes from the opera Palestrina. Violin concerto.
Erich Wolfgang Korngold : Symphony in F sharp minor. Violin concerto.


Lots of good stuff here !


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## Guest (Dec 2, 2011)

Sid James said:


> I think the piece you were thinking about Orff appropriating from Stravinsky was _Oedipus Rex_.


No, it was _Les Noces,_ like I said. _Carmina Burana_ is full of stuff ripped off from _Les Noces._

But Orff did acknowledge that he was heavily influenced by Stravinsky. And _Oedipus Rex_ is part of Stravinsky. And tattered fragments of it, too, may have made it into Orff's music. But _Les Noces_ is what I was thinking of and _Les Noces_ is what I said.


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