# Guillaume de Machaut - messe de nortre-dame best version?



## deprofundis (Apr 25, 2014)

I was lisening to graindelavoix rendition of* messe de Notre-Dame*, than i said lisen how rad this is
has i understand what they try to pull whit this work, make the messe de Notre-Dame prettier , ornements, manicotage thecnique.

Than since i was whit my father i said let me show you naxos now, than he was like yeah i like this better, but when i put brilliant he was like hmm yes this one better the voices are warmers than naxos less experimental than graindelavoix, this is the wright version.

I was shock since i like graindelavoix first, the two other second, all does i heard marcel peres messe de Notre-Dame but it was pretty damn good.But let's stick to the 3 primal version.

I would like graindelavoix better , i like brilliant second my father not into potatos, and naxos last.
Jeez sorry naxos for bashing your version but the naxos made me discovered Machaut so it's not worthless.

:tiphat:


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

The graindelavoix recording is interesting and your post may encourage me to think about it some more. His commentary on it in the booklet is difficult, especially towards the end of the essay. 

The one that interests me most at the moment is Lucian Kandel's, he implements some new ideas about how Machaut may have expected ficta and tempo to be handled. I find it expressive and his forces -- large and including some women -- let him produce some really very attractive effects.

Strangely enough Schmelzer's and Kandel's performances have some basic things in common, at least prima facie (expression, tempo), but their philosophies are radically opposed. Schmeltzer has no interest whatsoever in trying to implement ideas about what Machaut might have expected in terms of performance style, he has quite a different conception of authenticity -- that's what I need to think about before commenting on the recording.

One general point. This is a mass. The phrases have meaning. I like performances which make the meanings clear through expression.


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## GreenMamba (Oct 14, 2012)

Ensemble Organum (Marcel Peres) is another adventurous performance (along with Graindelavoix and Ensemble Musica Nova). Much larger ensemble, lower voiced, sounds slightly Middle Eastern. All dudes (unlike Musica Nova).

Interesting, but I think I like Ensemble Gilles Binchois best. Depends on my mood.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

GreenMamba said:


> Ensemble Organum (Marcel Peres) is another adventurous performance (along with Graindelavoix and Ensemble Musica Nova). Much larger ensemble, lower voiced, sounds slightly Middle Eastern. All dudes (unlike Musica Nova).
> 
> Interesting, but I think I like Ensemble Gilles Binchois best. Depends on my mood.


The Binchois ensemble one always makes me think of Baudelaire - luxe, calme et volupté.


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## Reichstag aus LICHT (Oct 25, 2010)

Ensemble Organum for me; I'm not sure how "authentic" it's meant to be but, as GreenMamba says, it's certainly an adventurous performance! I'd possibly put Jeremy Summerly and the Oxford Camerata (Naxos) second, just ahead of Ensemble Gilles Binchois, but it's a close-run thing.

I have a more straightforward recording by Guy Janssens and the Laudantes Consort. It lacks the more elaborate embellishments found on some other recordings, but no less effective for it. I'm not sure if it's available on its own, but it can be found in the box set "The Golden Age of the European Polyphony", which I can heartily recommend.


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## sloth (Jul 12, 2013)

diabolus in musica's is also a good one


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

What do you guys think about using instruments in the mass, like in the old recording by the Deller Consort? I love the sound of the brass underlining the voice. That Deller recording is well worth catching I think.

There are a couple of other through composed masses from the same period - Tournai and Barcelona. I listened to EO's Tournai quite recently in fact.


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## premont (May 7, 2015)

Mandryka said:


> What do you guys think about using instruments in the mass, like in the old recording by the Deller Consort? I love the sound of the brass underlining the voice. That Deller recording is well worth catching I think.


I do not like the sound quality of the Deller consort. The problem is surely Deller himself. However the instruments are interesting and well applied. There is BTW only one brass instrument on this recording - a trombone - specifications and lineup here:

http://www.medieval.org/emfaq/cds/dhm148.htm

The editor of the Edition Peters Machaut Mass Lucy Cross writes in the foreword, that the mass is intended for two higher voices and two lower voices, which means two tenors and two basses, and probably solo voices, and I am fully persvaded by her opinion. This is why I prefer the recordings by the Taverner Consort and by René Clemencic, which use this scoring. Taverner's is a capella, while Clemencic plays some short intro's on a chamber organ. And this way is probably authentic.

Recordings scored for countertenor / or woman alto, two tenors and bass /or baryton (Summerly, Binchois Consort e.g) may be utterly beautiful listening, but they tend to let the countertenor predominate, and maybe they produce a too beautiful sound. And the pitch may be too high.

Other than that I find recordings accompanied by solo instruments very interesting, even if they propably are inauthentic. Examples are:

Deller Consort (see above)

London Ambrosian singers / Dennis Steevens:

http://www.medieval.org/emfaq/cds/blv430.htm

Pro Musica Antiqua / Safford Cape:

http://www.medieval.org/emfaq/cds/dga14063.htm

and Capella Antiqua, München / Konrad Ruhland:

http://www.medieval.org/emfaq/cds/tld9566.htm


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Has Clemencic recorded the whole mass, Premont?

It seems strange that Kandel chose quite a big choir, it doesn't come up in the booklet essay.

There's one on spotify with instruments by Ars Antiqua de Paris.

https://www.discogs.com/Guillaume-d...-Nostre-Dame-LAmour-Courtois-/release/6284964

I haven't heard Stevens or Ruhland, I have heard Cape's.


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## premont (May 7, 2015)

Mandryka said:


> Has Clemencic recorded the whole mass, Premont?
> 
> It seems strange that Kandel chose quite a big choir, it doesn't come up in the booklet essay.
> 
> ...


Yes. Clemencic recorded the complete mass for Arte.

I own the Arte Antiqua, a relatively recent aquisition.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Here are my notes on the recording by Graindelavoix 


Björn Schmelzer has deliberately chosen a vocal style which is strange from the perspective of classical music. He has done this because he thinks that the Machaut mass is essentially strange. He asserts the first singers,who would have been used to chanting the mass, would have been been disoriented by the novelty of Machaut's polyphonic vision, disorientation is part of Machault's design, Machaut's music is a shocking act of resistance against the ideology of the times (a fabulation), and hence he aims to transfer some of that original disorientation to us. He credits Perès and Deleuze with the inspiration for these ideas. 

The strange style is, I think, used for the music outside the ordinaries, I can't explain why. (Maybe I'm wrong about this and he just uses a normal eastern chant there. But it's not so clear that it is, contrast Perès.)


Schmelzer has asked his singers to use their imaginations about Musica ficta and ornamentation to make the music expressive, as suggested by the words. Tempos are slower than Parrott, for example, or Clemencic. The slow tempos helps with their expression. Although Schmelzer is not interested in historical investigations about original tempos, original Musica Ficta etc, his choices and approach may not be out of line with the latest ideas. (See my comments on Lucien Kandel's performance.) 

He uses small forces, all male, no countertenors, no instruments. Textures are transparent, it feels like collaborative and responsive singing.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

I thought I'D listen closely to the credo in Schmelzer's CD, and compare what he does with Perès

I think Graindelavoix is a bit disappointing because it's a a bit un-nuanced emotionally. No attempt to differentiate the emotions for "Crucifixus etiam pro nobis" or "Qui propter nos homines, et propter nostram salutem" for example. Even the amen loses a bit of its magic shock- factor in Schmelzer's hands. He says in the booklet that Perès is one of his inspirations, but Perès is much more responsive to the meaning of the text in the credo at least. When I listened superficially my impression was of a certain uniform drabness, and though close listening shows that that's not quite fair, it's not far from the truth.

The whole exercise has very much increased my respect for Ensemble Organum's work here, which is rapidly becoming a favourite.


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## Myriadi (Mar 6, 2016)

Interesting thread. Has anyone heard the live recording somebody taped off the radio, by Schola: Machaut under Rebecca Stewart? That was 11 years ago. The recording is still available e.g. here through zippyshare:

http://classicalmusicinconcert.blogspot.ru/2016/08/machaut-messe-de-nostre-dame-schola.html

This used to be a favorite of mine, although I didn't have too many alternatives, and know too little to judge the performance accurately.


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## Chordalrock (Jan 21, 2014)

Myriadi said:


> Interesting thread. Has anyone heard the live recording somebody taped off the radio, by Schola: Machaut under Rebecca Stewart? That was 11 years ago. The recording is still available e.g. here through zippyshare:
> 
> http://classicalmusicinconcert.blogspot.ru/2016/08/machaut-messe-de-nostre-dame-schola.html
> 
> This used to be a favorite of mine, although I didn't have too many alternatives, and know too little to judge the performance accurately.


Perhaps the most noticeable thing about it is that it's very slow, like what she did with the early Cappella Pratensis recordings, the Dufay, the Ockghem, and the Isaac masses. I like these recordings, I think they're interesting, even fascinating, but they're probably not how the composers conceived these works (not that I have any indepth knowledge of the topic, but if I had to guess...).


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## Myriadi (Mar 6, 2016)

Chordalrock said:


> Perhaps the most noticeable thing about it is that it's very slow, like what she did with the early Cappella Pratensis recordings, the Dufay, the Ockghem, and the Isaac masses. I like these recordings, I think they're interesting, even fascinating, but they're probably not how the composers conceived these works (not that I have any indepth knowledge of the topic, but if I had to guess...).


It _is_ a bit slow to me now - wasn't so when I first heard it, but I knew even less about Machaut back then. But what I still like is the timbral quality, with very distinctive "personalities" of some of the voices. I'm not sure if this was intended, or simply an artifact caused by recording venue/equipment, or the radio broadcasting had something... But it makes the longer stretches of music richer. Do the Cappella Pratensis recordings have anything at all similar going on? Or maybe I'm the only one who hears this particular performance this way?


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## Chordalrock (Jan 21, 2014)

Myriadi said:


> It _is_ a bit slow to me now - wasn't so when I first heard it, but I knew even less about Machaut back then. But what I still like is the timbral quality, with very distinctive "personalities" of some of the voices. I'm not sure if this was intended, or simply an artifact caused by recording venue/equipment, or the radio broadcasting had something... But it makes the longer stretches of music richer. Do the Cappella Pratensis recordings have anything at all similar going on? Or maybe I'm the only one who hears this particular performance this way?


My memory is they sound exactly alike. I like their sound and style as well, and of course the tempo serves those ends.

You can check them for yourself on Spotify, or if you don't have Spotify they're on GooglePlay too.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Yes Rebecca Stewart is slow, but I have the impression that there's a huge amount of tempo variation amongst performances, and that recent research tends to favour slower (look at the booklet notes in Lucian Kandel's recording for some discussion.)

Here are some timings for the credo. 

Parrott 5'51
Kandel 9'54
Deller 6'09
Diabolus 7'36
Clemencic 6'10
Pérès 9'20
Wenzinger 7'11
Rebecca Stewart 10'42
Graindelavoix 9'59


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

There's a paper I'd like to read called "Performing Machaut's Messe de Notre Dame: from Modernist Allegiances to the Postmodern Hinterland" by Kirsten Yri, published in _The Machaut Companion_ (Brill) The book's too expensive, and even downloading the paper from the publisher is more than I want to pay. Can anyone let me have it?


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## Chordalrock (Jan 21, 2014)

Mandryka said:


> Yes Rebecca Stewart is slow, but I have the impression that there's a huge amount of tempo variation amongst performances, and that recent research tends to favour slower (look at the booklet notes in Lucian Kandel's recording for some discussion.)
> 
> Here are some timings for the credo.
> 
> ...


Interesting. Let's add:

Hilliards 5:40
Orlando Consort 5:49

P.S. If you didn't notice, I found some new info about the Ockeghem Missa Mi-mi editions and sent you a pm two days ago.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Chordalrock said:


> Interesting. Let's add:
> 
> Hilliards 5:40
> Orlando Consort 5:49
> ...


Yes I saw, and thanks. I just got rather distracted with the Machaut mass, you know how it is I expect.

I much prefer the Machaut mass played slowly than fast!


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Machaut: Messe de Nostre Dame/ Ensemble Organum, Marcel Pérès on Harmonia Mundi all the way.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Chordalrock said:


> Perhaps the most noticeable thing about it is that it's very slow, like what she did with the early Cappella Pratensis recordings, the Dufay, the Ockghem, and the Isaac masses. I like these recordings, I think they're interesting, even fascinating, but they're probably not how the composers conceived these works (not that I have any indepth knowledge of the topic, but if I had to guess...).


One thing at thought was special about the recording by Rebecca Stewart is the way the chanted music seemed to fit so well with Machaut's mass. It's as if she's saying that Machaut inaugurated a major change, but gently.

Pérès talks about making the music sound strange now, because it would have sounded strange then. I think she succeeds in this too, to an extent.

Anyway I like the heavenly length of it, and I like the intimacy, and the way she makes climaxes.


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## atm (Oct 28, 2018)

Their performance of the Kyrie is the best but Im afraid that the Gloria and Credo are a bit boring.



deprofundis said:


> I was lisening to graindelavoix rendition of* messe de Notre-Dame*, than i said lisen how rad this is
> has i understand what they try to pull whit this work, make the messe de Notre-Dame prettier , ornements, manicotage thecnique.
> 
> Than since i was whit my father i said let me show you naxos now, than he was like yeah i like this better, but when i put brilliant he was like hmm yes this one better the voices are warmers than naxos less experimental than graindelavoix, this is the wright version.
> ...


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## atm (Oct 28, 2018)

Mandryka said:


> I thought I'D listen closely to the credo in Schmelzer's CD, and compare what he does with Perès
> 
> I think Graindelavoix is a bit disappointing because it's a a bit un-nuanced emotionally. No attempt to differentiate the emotions for "Crucifixus etiam pro nobis" or "Qui propter nos homines, et propter nostram salutem" for example. Even the amen loses a bit of its magic shock- factor in Schmelzer's hands. He says in the booklet that Perès is one of his inspirations, but Perès is much more responsive to the meaning of the text in the credo at least. When I listened superficially my impression was of a certain uniform drabness, and though close listening shows that that's not quite fair, it's not far from the truth.
> 
> The whole exercise has very much increased my respect for Ensemble Organum's work here, which is rapidly becoming a favourite.


I was thinking, isnt this because their chant is really metered like a march or something.


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## CloisterFach (Dec 11, 2020)

I LOVE the Graindelavoix and Ensemble Organum recordings (even though the Oxford Camerata one is my favorite). I am writing an article on performance practice of La Messe and have Ensemble Organum (Peres) on-order, but in the meantime I need help:

Does anyone have the Ensemble Organum Messe de Nostre Dame *CD Liner Notes*? Please pm me or write [email protected] - I need to reference them.

Thanks!


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