# John Cage's 4'33"



## aioriacont (Jul 23, 2018)

Which is your favorite recording of this work? 
It can be HIP or non-HIP.


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## Rogerx (Apr 27, 2018)

If you use the search in search secretion, right on top of the board, type there : John Cage's 4'33"
You can find loads of discussion.


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## aioriacont (Jul 23, 2018)

Rogerx said:


> If you use the search in search secretion, right on top of the board, type there : John Cage's 4'33"
> You can find loads of discussion.


I did that, but none of the versions touched my soul, they are too quiet. 
I want something with more meat. Did Richter record it? It doesn't need to be in fortepiano.


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## 20centrfuge (Apr 13, 2007)

I prefer the Muzak rendition


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## Kjetil Heggelund (Jan 4, 2016)

You could also try this


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## JAS (Mar 6, 2013)

Technically, I suppose that I am listening to 4'33" right now. It is just that my background sounds include Albinoni's oboe concertos.


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## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

Kjetil Heggelund said:


> You could also try this


It's nice, but I prefer Karajan's version.


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## Room2201974 (Jan 23, 2018)

For the discerning listener who needs MORE of 4'33", this version has an extra 35" - think of it like a bonus hidden track:


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## Allegro Con Brio (Jan 3, 2020)

The composer's own interpretation has a certain authority:


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## aioriacont (Jul 23, 2018)

Kjetil Heggelund said:


> You could also try this


I prefer the accuracy of Suzuki on conducting this piece.


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## aioriacont (Jul 23, 2018)

Allegro Con Brio said:


> The composer's own interpretation has a certain authority:


finally a non-cover version.

I have some Bach bootlegs, one very special from 1721 when he did some great organ improvisations.
Too bad Napster was taken down and we only have those covers of modern interpreters.


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## mikeh375 (Sep 7, 2017)

Little known fact....
The Beatles recorded it backwards at the end of their Rubber Soul album.....honest


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## aioriacont (Jul 23, 2018)

Room2201974 said:


> For the discerning listener who needs MORE of 4'33", this version has an extra 35" - think of it like a bonus hidden track:


Zappa, Zappa, he was always ahead of his time...


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## JAS (Mar 6, 2013)

mikeh375 said:


> Little known fact....
> The Beatles recorded it backwards at the end of their Rubber Soul album.....honest


I thought that they put selections from 4'33" on all of their albums, between the tracks. (That joke would probably work better with actual LPs.)


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## aioriacont (Jul 23, 2018)

mikeh375 said:


> Little known fact....
> The Beatles recorded it backwards at the end of their Rubber Soul album.....honest


They could've released that album and their other ones as only silence, they would be much better!


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## Ethereality (Apr 6, 2019)

When I go over to people's houses I always say "Hey, great music."


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## erki (Feb 17, 2020)

I like people who repeat the same silly joke over and over again. Great entertainment!


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## Nereffid (Feb 6, 2013)

Making a joke about 4'33" is to classical forums as shouting "Free Bird!" is to rock concerts.


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## aioriacont (Jul 23, 2018)

erki said:


> I like people who repeat the same silly joke over and over again. Great entertainment!


Sorry man, can't hear you. 4'33 is too loud here


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## amfortas (Jun 15, 2011)

Nereffid said:


> Making a joke about 4'33" is to classical forums as shouting "Free Bird!" is to rock concerts.


I always shout "4'33"!" at rock concerts.

And yeah, I get about the same reaction there.


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## gregorx (Jan 25, 2020)

aioriacont said:


> I did that, but none of the versions touched my soul, they are too quiet.
> I want something with more meat. Did Richter record it? It doesn't need to be in fortepiano.


Who's Richter? _My_ recording (I have it on my phone) of 4'33" is the best! In fact, I've been so bold as to do several transcriptions: 4'33" For Empty Gymnasium and Two Locker Rooms; 4'33" For Second Floor Laundry; and 4'33" For Tool Shed and Prepared Lawn Mower.


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## mikeh375 (Sep 7, 2017)

aioriacont said:


> They could've released that album and their other ones as only silence, they would be much better!


ooooh steady. Scouser and fan here......


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## vmartell (Feb 9, 2017)

Getting a bit serious here - not too much - Mute Records put out a compilation of different artists doing 4'33

http://mute.com/stumm-433

Laibach managed to no only include a righteous turntable (shout out to vinyl fans) they made it NSFW - so, HEADS UP.

v


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## jegreenwood (Dec 25, 2015)

Kjetil Heggelund said:


> You could also try this


Started playing that. My dog went crazy. Had to stop.


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## jegreenwood (Dec 25, 2015)

Morton Feldman's recording runs 8:66.


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## Ethereality (Apr 6, 2019)

4'33" is overrated. 0" is much more brilliantly executed. The form unattainable.


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## Kjetil Heggelund (Jan 4, 2016)

Ethereality said:


> 4'33" is overrated. 0" is much more brilliantly executed. The form unattainable.


No, you're wrong. The original is always best!


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

Heard any good 4'33" jokes lately? I mean _good _jokes.


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## JAS (Mar 6, 2013)

millionrainbows said:


> Heard any good 4'33" jokes lately? I mean _good _jokes.


Well, if you are gonna put restrictions like _that_ on it . . . no, of course not.


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## amfortas (Jun 15, 2011)

millionrainbows said:


> Heard any good 4'33" jokes lately? I mean _good _jokes.


By definition, there aren't any.


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## Kjetil Heggelund (Jan 4, 2016)

I prefer 4'33" over party tents and I'm not vegan.


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## Ethereality (Apr 6, 2019)

_Message deleted._


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## aioriacont (Jul 23, 2018)

they always play 4'33 during college exams, it's the only piece no-one complains about


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## Guest (Jul 5, 2020)

aioriacont said:


> Which is your favorite recording of this work?
> It can be HIP or non-HIP.


I prefer the Sound of Crickets recording.


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## Kjetil Heggelund (Jan 4, 2016)

Does anyone take mr. John Cage seriously here? He does have a significant following. Meaning, this guy's for real.


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## SONNET CLV (May 31, 2014)

Allegro Con Brio said:


> The composer's own interpretation has a certain authority:


Honestly, I never heard anything like that. Thanks for posting it.


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## consuono (Mar 27, 2020)

Kjetil Heggelund said:


> Does anyone take mr. John Cage seriously here? He does have a significant following. Meaning, this guy's for real.


The subject of the thread refers to a gimmick. The fact that it's constantly being referenced shows that it had its intended effect. I think Satie did that sort of thing much better, and leaving me more with a feeling of "maybe there's more there than meets the ear".

No, I don't have much interest in John Cage's music. He might've been a better as a marketing guy.


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## Rogerx (Apr 27, 2018)

aioriacont said:


> they always play 4'33 during college exams, it's the only piece no-one complains about


Post of the day :lol:


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## janxharris (May 24, 2010)

Is 4'33'' the only piece of music that everyone (bar none) has definitely heard?


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

consuono said:


> No, I don't have much interest in John Cage's music. He might've been a better as a marketing guy.


If Paul Best had said something like that about Beethoven, he would have gotten premanently banned!


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## mikeh375 (Sep 7, 2017)

janxharris said:


> Is 4'33'' the only piece of music that everyone (bar none) has definitely heard?


...it's also one everybody in the world can play Jan.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

Questions and statements in this thread which represent an inadequate understanding of 4'33":

Post #1: Which is your favorite recording of this work? 
It can be HIP or non-HIP.

_Answer: It can't be recorded. It must be experienced live._

Post #3: I did that, but none of the versions touched my soul, they are too quiet. 
I want something with more meat. Did Richter record it? It doesn't need to be in fortepiano.

_Answer: This assumes that it is a 'performance.' It is not, and can't be recorded._

Post #4: I prefer the Muzak rendition

_Answer: Ditto_

Post #6: Technically, I suppose that I am listening to 4'33" right now. It is just that my background sounds include Albinoni's oboe concertos.

_Answer: No, it can't be experienced outside of a sanctioned presentation of it._

Post #7: It's nice, but I prefer Karajan's version.

_Answer: There can be no "version" of it, because it is not a performance. There is no 'artist' to 'perform' it, and it is not a 'composition' which was 'composed' by John Cage, although he did publish it._


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

janxharris said:


> Is 4'33'' the only piece of music that everyone (bar none) has definitely heard?


I've never heard "it" because I have never attended a sanctioned presentation of "it."

Sanction: An approval, by an authority, generally one that makes something valid.


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## mikeh375 (Sep 7, 2017)

millionrainbows said:


> [IAnswer: It can't be recorded. It must be experienced live.[/I]
> 
> Answer: This assumes that it is a 'performance.' It is not, and can't be recorded.[/COLOR][/I]
> 
> ...


....this seems to makes a bit of a mockery of your rejoinders MR.


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## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

Post deleted. Others responded better.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

_There can be no "version" of it, because it is not a performance. There is no 'artist' to 'perform' it, and it is not a 'composition' which was 'composed' by John Cage, although he did publish it.

_In fact, John Cage has very little to do with 4'33", except that he published it, and the piece must be sanctioned by using the published score. Other than that, he had no input whatsoever determining _what sounds_ occur during the piece.

So why would anyone, (if they understand the piece) attribute the sounds which occur during this time-frame to John Cage? He has nothing to do with the sounds. All he did was publish it.


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## mikeh375 (Sep 7, 2017)

millionrainbows said:


> _There can be no "version" of it, because it is not a performance. There is no 'artist' to 'perform' it, and it is not a 'composition' which was 'composed' by John Cage, although he did publish it.
> 
> _*In fact, John Cage has very little to do with 4'33", except that he published it, *and the piece must be sanctioned by using the published score. Other than that, he had no input whatsoever upon the sounds that occur during the piece.
> 
> So why would anyone, (if they understand the piece) attribute the sounds which occur during this time-frame to John Cage? He has nothing to do with the sounds. All he did was publish it.


I wonder if he got royalties...


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

> millionrainbows: Answer: It can't be recorded. It must be experienced live.
> Answer: This assumes that it is a 'performance.' It is not, and can't be recorded.
> Answer: No, it can't be experienced outside of a sanctioned presentation of it.
> Answer: There can be no "version" of it, because it is not a performance. There is no 'artist' to 'perform' it, and it is not a 'composition' which was 'composed' by John Cage,* although he did publish it.*





mikeh375 said:


> ....this seems to makes a bit of a mockery of your rejoinders MR.


No it doesn't. 4'33" is a performance (presentation) piece. *In this case, the "idea" is presented, not a musical performance. *

Many other composers and artists have published performance scores, like Stockhausen, and many conceptual artists. You need to brush up on your knowledge of art.


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## premont (May 7, 2015)

millionrainbows said:


> [/COLOR]_Answer: No, it can't be experienced outside of a sanctioned presentation of it._
> 
> _Answer: There can be no "version" of it, because it is not a performance. There is no 'artist' to 'perform' it, and it is not a 'composition' which was 'composed' by John Cage, although he did publish it._


There is score, and with the score in hand everybody can perform it. Some may even be able to perform it by heart.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

mikeh375 said:


> I wonder if he got royalties...


There was a case of an LP being released with a "recording" of the piece which used Cage's name, and the estate of John Cage sued and won.

If it were used in a concert, royalties would have to be paid.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

premont said:


> There is score, and with the score in hand everybody can perform it. Some may even be able to perform it by heart.


There is no "it" to "perform." The "score" is not a conventional score, but a set of instructions for presenting the idea of piece, and a time frame for the ensuing experience of the sounds.


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## mikeh375 (Sep 7, 2017)

millionrainbows said:


> There was a case of an LP being released with a "recording" of the piece which used Cage's name, and the estate of John Cage sued and won.
> 
> If it were used in a concert, royalties would have to be paid.


...a smart move to publish then. It was Edition Peters wasn't it? So, what distinguishes anyone holding the score and just listening - perhaps with family or a few friends in a social club - from a sanctioned performance, anything? Perhaps a minimum seating?...for more royalties.


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## premont (May 7, 2015)

millionrainbows said:


> There is no "it" to "perform." The "score" is not a conventional score, but a set of instructions for presenting the piece.


The general definiton of a score is, that it is an instruction for presenting the piece in question, whatever there are most notes or most pauses. But you seem to think, that pauses can't be performed, but the fact is, that they must be taken precisely, and this is also true of 4'33''.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

mikeh375 said:


> ...a smart move to publish then. It was Edition Peters wasn't it? So, what distinguishes anyone holding the score and just listening - perhaps with family or a few friends in a social club - from a sanctioned performance, anything? Perhaps a minimum seating?...for more royalties.


Serious answer:
It seems to me that you are trying to "get around" the idea of 4'33" in this manner, with these proposed "exceptions."

Still, I would see no problem if a pianist presented the piece in an intimate setting, as long as he bought the score. This would be authentic enough.

Myself? I would not attend an unsanctioned "bootleg" presentation. I want the real, authentic John Cage published version.


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## mikeh375 (Sep 7, 2017)

...I'm thinking of performing it at the local Labour Party Workers Club is all. As a composer, I couldn't possibly sanction anything that infringes copyrights.... My performance will include the clinking of beer glasses and the occasional scrap. There will also be some abuse no doubt as I sit at my Hammond organ and not play 'Rhinestone Cowboy'.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

premont said:


> The general definiton of a score is, that it is an instruction for presenting the piece in question, whatever there are most notes or most pauses. But you seem to think, that pauses can't be performed, but the fact is, that they must be taken precisely, and this is also true of 4'33''.


What are you talking about? There are no "performed pauses" in 4'33." There is no "performance" at all; only sounds which might occur.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

mikeh375 said:


> ...I'm thinking of performing it at the local Labour Party Workers Club is all. As a composer, I couldn't possibly sanction anything that infringes copyrights.... My performance will include the clinking of beer glasses and the occasional scrap.


Serious answer:

That's presumptuous to try to predict what sounds might occur.

The piece is not for "control freaks" who are trying to control what sounds are heard, but for presentation in a concert setting where the sounds are more likely to be random. The piece is not about "controlled sound" by you, or anyone, including John Cage.

I could have the piece presented at the base of Niagra Falls, and thus "control" the resulting sound, but that is not what John Cage intended.


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## mikeh375 (Sep 7, 2017)

millionrainbows said:


> Serious answer:
> 
> That's presumptuous to try to predict what sounds might occur.
> 
> .


You've never set foot in an English Social Club then...

Oh I see your misunderstanding, I should have said the_ inevitable_ sounds of.....

(you do know I'm just being flippant right?)


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## premont (May 7, 2015)

millionrainbows said:


> What are you talking about? There are no "performed pauses" in 4'33." There is no "performance" at all; only sounds which might occur.


What is this btw:


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

mikeh375 said:


> You've never set foot in an English Social Club then...
> 
> Oh I see your misunderstanding, I should have said the_ inevitable_ sounds of.....
> 
> (you do know I'm just being flippant right?)


Serious answer:

No, I'm saying that it's presumptuous to try to predict what sounds might occur as applied to a presentation of 4'33."

You are no doubt correct as to the sounds of an English drinking club. I'm not contradicting that.

Additionally, the experience of 4'33" is much more effective if one is sober. It wasn't intended for slobbering English drunks (you know, John Cage being a Zen Buddhist).


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## mikeh375 (Sep 7, 2017)

premont said:


> What is this btw:


Thanks for that Premont, I'm in my studio and thought I had some feedback somewhere......:lol:


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

premont said:


> What is this btw:


*This is not the score to 4'33." This is probably a copyright infringement as well, since it purports to be by John Cage.
*
Once again, 4'33" is not about "performed silence."


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## mikeh375 (Sep 7, 2017)

millionrainbows said:


> Serious answer:
> 
> Additionally, the experience of 4'33" is much more effective if one is sober. *It wasn't intended for slobbering English drunks* (you know, John Cage being a Zen Buddhist).


Well, that's just rude, we don't slobber, we fight and vomit then get arrested. Besides does it say that at the head of the score, that no performance is allowed in front of English drinkers? That'd be a shame as there's plenty of royalties to be had...and I mean...plenty....
ok, I'll stop taking the p*** MR and I'll ignore your jibe about me having to brush up on my art.


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## premont (May 7, 2015)

millionrainbows said:


> This is not the score to 4'33." This is probably a copyright infringement as well, since it purports to be by John Cage.
> 
> Once again, 4'33" is not about "performed silence."


I have not seen the authorized Peters Edition, but you seem to know it intimately. Would you mind to make a small part of it accessible to me, in order to let me see, how the piece is notated?


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

mikeh375 said:


> Well, that's just rude, we don't slobber, we fight and vomit then get arrested. Besides does it say that at the head of the score, that no performance is allowed in front of English drinkers? That'd be a shame as there's plenty of royalties to be had...and I mean...plenty....
> ok, I'll stop taking the p*** MR and I'll ignore your jibe about me having to brush up on my art.


Serious answer: my reply is based on John Cage being a sincere artist, and a Buddhist.


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## mikeh375 (Sep 7, 2017)

millionrainbows said:


> Serious answer: my reply is based on John Cage being a sincere artist, and a Buddhist.


Seriously....
Yes he was, I totally agree. I particularly like his prepared piano sonatas + interludes.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

premont said:


> I have not seen the authorized Peters Edition, but you seem to know it intimately. Would you mind to make a small part of it accessible to me, in order to let me see, how the piece is notated?


Serious answer:

You can buy it online.

This "musicscore" version might be presented as a convenience, as the score to 4'33," but the "musicscore" version appears to be just a set of instructions for the pianist. It has nothing to do with the sounds that occur; only with instructions for the pianist to not play.

Once again, 4'33" is not about "performed silence." It is about actual sounds which might occur in that time frame.


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## premont (May 7, 2015)

millionrainbows said:


> You can buy it online.


Waste of money, when you can tell me, how the piece is notated.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

premont said:


> Waste of money, when you can tell me, how the piece is notated.


No, I think YOU should possess the score as a way of backing up *your* assertions; which it can't do, ever.



premont said:


> The general definiton of a score is, that it is an instruction for presenting the piece in question, whatever there are most notes or most pauses. But you seem to think, that pauses can't be performed, but the fact is, that they must be taken precisely, and this is also true of 4'33''.


Okay, technically, pauses are durations of silence, which can be performed, _but this belies an essential misunderstanding of the piece._ In this case, the "score" can't be anything except a set of instructions, having nothing to do with the _actual sounds_ which might occur during the duration of the work.

These actual sounds are not notated; they simply occur, controlled by no one.

*4'33" is a piece about listening to actual sounds; not the performance of silence.*


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## premont (May 7, 2015)

millionrainbows said:


> No, I think YOU should possess the score as a way of backing up *your* assertions; which it can't do, ever.


You pretend to know the score very well to the point of having seen it, and if so is the case, your claims may possibly win if you tell me what I want to know about the notation of the score. There is no rational argument for not telling me this.

But if you haven't seen the score, you may be wrong in your claims above.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

millionrainbows said:


> Okay, technically, pauses are durations of silence, which can be performed, _but this belies an essential misunderstanding of the piece._ In this case, the "score" can't be anything except a set of instructions, having *nothing to do with any of* the actual sounds which might occur during the duration of the work.


I just want to re-present this with the emphasis in a different place, and a slight modification. No score determines _all _the actual sounds which might occur during the duration of the work.

However I don't think this gets to the heart of the matter -- I think the heart of the matter has to do with _intention_. Does the score for piece of music like _Aufwärts _from Stockhausen's _Aus den Sieben Tagen_ have anything to do with the sounds which might occur during the duration of the work.

Here's the score



> Play a vibration in the rhythm of your smallest particles
> Play a vibration in the rhythm of the universe
> Play all the rhythms that you can
> distinguish today between
> ...


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

premont said:


> You pretend to know the score very well to the point of having seen it, and if so is the case, your claims may possibly win if you tell me what I want to know about the notation of the score. There is no rational argument for not telling me this. But if you haven't seen the score, you may be wrong in your claims above.


You may be wrong, too. The key to understanding 4'33" lies not in the score, but in understanding the composer's intent, and I think I do, much better than you do.

I can "demonstrate" my understanding of the piece, but nobody can "prove" such things.

Your "internet rationalist" side is showing. This is art, not science.


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## premont (May 7, 2015)

millionrainbows said:


> Okay, technically, pauses are durations of silence, which can be performed, _but this belies an essential misunderstanding of the piece._ In this case, the "score" can't be anything except a set of instructions, having nothing to do with the _actual sounds_ which might occur during the duration of the work.
> 
> These actual sounds are not notated; they simply occur, controlled by no one.
> 
> *4'33" is a piece about listening to actual sounds; not the performance of silence.*


Whatever performed, there is always some casual sounds e.g. bird song, audience coughing et.c. This doesn't separate performance of 4'33'' from other performances.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

millionrainbows said:


> You may be wrong, too. The key to understanding 4'33" lies not in the score, but in understanding the composer's intent, and I think I do, much better than you do.


I bet most children would too. But adults seem to have a problem with it. All the regimentation drilled into them by the time they get out of college has killed the spirit of imagination.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

Mandryka said:


> I just want to re-present this with the emphasis in a different place, and a slight modification. No score determines _all _the actual sounds which might occur during the duration of the work.
> 
> However I don't think this gets to the heart of the matter -- I think the heart of the matter has to do with _intention_. Does the score for piece of music like _Aufwärts _from Stockhausen's _Aus den Sieben Tagen_ have anything to do with the sounds which might occur during the duration of the work.
> 
> Here's the score


No, I don't think Cage had any _intention _for the actual sounds, except for the audience, whom he suggested (intended) simply listen to the sounds around them.

Still, this is hardly the kind of controlled "intention" that we see in other composers or scores. It certainly does not apply to controlling sound, only in its perception.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

premont said:


> Whatever performed, there is always some casual sounds e.g. bird song, audience coughing et.c. This doesn't separate performance of 4'33'' from other performances.


You're trying to generalize. No, each occurrence of 4'33" is a unique span of time. It's called "now."


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## premont (May 7, 2015)

millionrainbows said:


> You may be wrong, too. The key to understanding 4'33" lies not in the score, but in understanding the composer's intent, and I think I do, much better than you do.
> 
> I can "demonstrate" my understanding of the piece, but nobody can "prove" such things.
> 
> Your "internet rationalist" side is showing. This is art, not science.


The composers intention is probably quite simple. I suppose it just is to draw attention to all the sounds which always surround us, whether we are silent or listen to some music or whatever we do.

My question was not about the composers intention, this was added by you, but I wanted to know, how Cage notates the work in the score. Is the work notated as a long sequence of pauses?

And clearly you haven't seen the score, so actually you only presume the composers intention from what you have heard about it.


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## premont (May 7, 2015)

millionrainbows said:


> You're trying to generalize. No, each occurrence of 4'33" is a unique span of time. It's called "now."


Every performance of music covers a unique span of time, which never returns, and the "extraneous" sounds differ all the time. 4'33'' isn't unique in that sense.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

BTW, in case anyone wonders why I take 4'33" seriously, while others joke about it or try to 'contradict' it, is because I consider it to be a 'religious' work, insofar as it is an expression of Cage's Zen Buddhism.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

millionrainbows said:


> No, I don't think Cage had any _intention _for the actual sounds, except for the audience, whom he suggested (intended) simply listen to the sounds around them.


I agree, I probably said it badly. I don't think Stockhausen had any intention for the actual sounds of _Aufwärts _either, yet it seems somehow really different from 4'33'' - I'm trying to get at that difference.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

premont said:


> The composers intention is probably quite simple. I suppose it just is to draw attention to all the sounds which always surround us, whether we are silent or listen to some music or whatever we do.
> 
> My question was not about the composers intention, this was added by you, but I wanted to know, how Cage notates the work in the score. Is the work notated as a long sequence of pauses?
> 
> And clearly you haven't seen the score, so actually you only presume the composers intention from what you have heard about it.


http://rosewhitemusic.com/piano/2018/09/10/the-composition-of-4-33/
Here's the score. It is not a work with a long sequence of rests.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

premont said:


> The composers intention is probably quite simple. I suppose it just is to draw attention to all the sounds which always surround us, whether we are silent or listen to some music or whatever we do.
> 
> My question was not about the composers intention, this was added by you, but I wanted to know, how Cage notates the work in the score. Is the work notated as a long sequence of pauses?
> 
> And clearly you haven't seen the score, so actually you only presume the composers intention from what you have heard about it.


How would my seeing the score allow me to know the composer's intent? It's not in the score.

Answers to questions like "what was the composer's intent" come from inter-subjective knowledge and experience, not from objectivism.

Are you asking me to "prove" that I understand the composer's intention? It can't be done. This is art, not science.

See the thread "Can art be objectified?"


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Maybe, here's the frontpiece


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## DeepR (Apr 13, 2012)

Here we go again...  
All threads about this "piece" are like black holes. Nothing (good) ever comes out of them.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

DeepR said:


> Here we go again...
> All threads about this "piece" are like black holes. Nothing (good) ever comes out of them.


Maybe that's the intent. Of course, I can't prove that.


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## premont (May 7, 2015)

Mandryka said:


> http://rosewhitemusic.com/piano/2018/09/10/the-composition-of-4-33/
> Here's the score. It is not a work with a long sequence of rests.


Thanks. This is not the official Peters release but a page from David Tudor's reconstruction of the original score of Cage's 4′ 33″, so I suppose it reproduces Cage's hand written score.


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## premont (May 7, 2015)

millionrainbows said:


> How would my seeing the score allow me to know the composer's intent? It's not in the score.


He might have left some notes (pun intended) about his intentions in a preface.



millionrainbows said:


> Answers to questions like "what was the composer's intent" come from inter-subjective knowledge and experience, not from objectivism.
> 
> Are you asking me to "prove" that I understand the composer's intention? It can't be done. This is art, not science.


I never asked you about the composers intentions, but I wrote what I thought, because you questioned my understanding of his intentions. What I asked you about was how the work was notated in the score. Thanks to Mandryka I know by now.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

DeepR said:


> Here we go again...
> All threads about this "piece" are like black holes. Nothing (good) ever comes out of them.


Probably because it's a piece to be experienced and it wasn't meant to be talked about on internet forums.


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## DaveM (Jun 29, 2015)

It’s by far Cage’s best work. All would be contemporary composers unwilling or unable to compose a melody or anything that has the ability to attract more than a group at a free concert in a venue that seats no more than 50 people should follow that example.


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## Guest (Jul 6, 2020)

DeepR said:


> Here we go again...
> All threads about this "piece" are like black holes. Nothing (good) ever comes out of them.


If only they were as distant as black holes!!


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## Allegro Con Brio (Jan 3, 2020)

DaveM said:


> It's by far Cage's best work. All would be contemporary composers unwilling or unable to compose a melody or anything that has the ability to attract more than a group at a free concert in a venue that seats no more than 50 people should follow that example.


I dunno, Cage's Sonatas and Interludes for Prepared Piano are pretty accessible, especially for those who like jazz piano.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

premont said:


> He might have left some notes (pun intended) about his intentions in a preface.
> I never asked you about the composers intentions, but I wrote what I thought, because you questioned my understanding of his intentions. What I asked you about was how the work was notated in the score. Thanks to Mandryka I know by now.


Yes, thank you Mandryka. In all my years of 4'33" discussions, I've never seen anyone offer score evidence like that. Yes, it's based on David Tudor's copy of the performance score that Cage hand-wrote, but it's something.

All these questions about the score led me to believe that it was going to be used to undermine my assertions, but I'm glad things have worked themselves out.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

Christabel said:


> If only they were as distant as black holes!!


Yes, let's get back on topic: jokes about 4'33." That takes a lot of pressure off.


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## aioriacont (Jul 23, 2018)

damn, the whole of my neighborhood keep playing 4'33 all night long


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

...a low-rider drove through my hood, playing 4'33" so loud on his subwoofers that it created a dimensional vortex (black hole) and sucked a dog in.


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## premont (May 7, 2015)

millionrainbows said:


> All these questions about the score led me to *believe that it was going to be used to undermine my assertions*, but I'm glad things have worked themselves out.


Not at all, I just wanted some facts.


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## JAS (Mar 6, 2013)

DeepR said:


> Here we go again...
> All threads about this "piece" are like black holes. Nothing (good) ever comes out of them.


Much like the work itself. (Blame Cage. If you do something intentionally very provocative, you cannot complain about responses that reflect being provoked.) One presumes that Cage would be happy to know that it is still being talked about at all, bad jokes or not.


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## Marc (Jun 15, 2007)

My favourite performance: Reinbert de Leeuw (I miss him) for the Dutch telly, December 2010.

Alas, I can't find it on YouTube anymore.
De Leeuw is getting interviewed, in Dutch, about British Xmas hits (Rage/Cage Against The Machine), Cage, silence, and other artists who were inspired by silence, emptiness and isolation. Plus some talk about Satie's "Vexations". I'm just too lazy to translate it all. Apologies.

_4'33"_ starts at 06:40...

https://www.bnnvara.nl/dewerelddraaitdoor/videos/238490


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## brunumb (Dec 8, 2017)

If 4'33" doesn't do it for you, put on the CD of Marcel Marceau's Greatest Hits.


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