# Tristan und Isolde



## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

Well, many thanks to sospiro for recommending that short selection from Klaus Florian Vogt's Lohengrin. I went and got the Abbado/Domingo/Studer production from the library and now, of course, I must own it. lol so although I started at this bulletin board completely confused by Wagner, progress has been achieved with two of his operas!

And I'm thinking the next Wagner opera on my list really should be Tristan und Isolde. The wikipedia article is pretty confusing - it seems that equal numbers of people think it's either a complete travesty, or the best thing since sliced bananas on cornflakes. Mark Twain is quoted as saying he felt like he was the only sane person in a kingdom of the mad. A sensation I too have had!

So what grabs you about this opera, apart from the music of course? What's the emotional hook? Is it just purely a love story? Lohengrin, Parsifal and the Ring cycle all strike me as having rather enhanced domestic dramas - the relationship between Kundry and Parsifal I thought was particularly delightful - and I'm working on a theory of Wagner as the king of domesticity (dramatically, of course, nothing to do with his music). Please let me know what you think.

Also, my experience with a number of other operas indicates the best one on Amazon isn't necessarily the one to watch. If you were going to recommend a video, which one would you recommend?


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

1995 Barenboim DVD with Jerusalem and Meier. I have seen most DVDs and this one is incomparable, the absolute peak. 

"Whats the emotional hook, is it just purely a love story?"

That made me LOL. Nobody can describe Tristan to you. You're in for a treat.


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

Tristan an Isolde took a lot longer for me to get into - I had to see it to "get" it. I like this DVD:










But I haven't seen the one Couchie recommends and I'm sure it's great too, simply due to the presence of Meier (I feel a one-click coming on, aargh). The one above is a very stripped down production so not everyone's cup of tea, but has the added bonus of a truly fascinating interview about the opera and death.

BTW while I like the Domingo Lohengrin and it's a good introduction, you might want to consider an alternative purchase:


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

I will warn that many of the non-Bayreuth DVDs, mamascarlatti's included, cut the 2nd act, about 10 minutes of some of the most glorious music Wagner wrote.


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## Glissando (Nov 25, 2011)

This DVD is fantastic:









_Tristan_ is basically a "love story," yet it is nuanced and complex. Wagner depicts two people falling in love, and yet to me one of the fascinating things is that there is always an ironic distance that casts doubt on the worthiness of this illicit passion. Is this a story about a glorious redemption of true love in the face of worldly power and repressive customs, or is it the story of two people who were taken prisoner by their obsessions, losing grip on reality? It is both.

The first act is tensely dramatic. It tells the story of how the current situation came to be, and sets in motion what will transpire in the next two acts. Acts II and III are purely poetic experiences, where hardly any action happens, yet the characters' psychological experience deepens as they meditate about their lives. This opera was very much an acquired taste for me. The music is challenging and very intricate. Wagner does use some leitmotifs in _Tristan_, but they are fewer and farther between than in _The Ring_. The long, arching vocal melodies did not make sense to me for a while. Once everything 'clicked,' I began to understand it, and now I think it is one of the greatest scores ever.

You may find it helpful to read up a bit on the Tristan stories, which have appeared in various versions throughout history. (I don't mean you have to read all the other versions -- a Wikipedia-type synopsis will help with explaining the context of some of the plot details that Wagner deals with very quickly due to the reduced scope of an opera libretto). Ernest Newman writes, in his book _Wagner's Operas_, about how Wagner greatly condensed the previous versions and put many of his own changes into the story.

You're in for a treat, but I suggest you not give up on it if you dislike it initially. Give it time to grow on you.


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

^If you want a boring Tristan, a mousey housewife Isolde, a conductor with a decade of less experience, and a botched reinterpretation of the ending, that is the one to get. Not recommended.


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## Glissando (Nov 25, 2011)

Couchie said:


> ^If you want a boring Tristan, a mousey housewife Isolde, a conductor with a decade of less experience, and a botched reinterpretation of the ending, that is the one to get. Not recommended.


Okay, well, that is the only Tristan DVD I've seen, but I really liked it. And it has a 4-star rating from 30 reviews on Amazon, so apparently I'm not alone.


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

Glissando said:


> Okay, well, that is the only Tristan DVD I've seen, but I really liked it. And it has a 4-star rating from 30 reviews on Amazon, so apparently I'm not alone.


It was my first Tristan too, OK at the time but I have preferred every one since to it.


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

Couchie said:


> I will warn that many of the non-Bayreuth DVDs, mamascarlatti's included, cut the 2nd act, about 10 minutes of some of the most glorious music Wagner wrote.


One click urge getting stronger.


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

mamascarlatti said:


> One click urge getting stronger.


Please get it. You will not regret it. You cannot afford to die without seeing Meier's Isolde.


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

Couchie said:


> Please get it. You will not regret it. You cannot afford to die without seeing Meier's Isolde.


I'm safe from premature Meierless death as I've seen this, but wasn't keen on Storey.


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## emiellucifuge (May 26, 2009)

Its a little more than a love story, its a great metaphor for Schopenhauerian metaphysics.

This is an interesting link:
http://www.utexas.edu/courses/tristan/wagner.php


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## DarkAngel (Aug 11, 2010)

mamascarlatti said:


> I'm safe from premature Meierless death as I've seen this, but wasn't keen on Storey.


I sold this a couple years ago, the earlier Watraud Meier/Barenboim Couchie mentioned works much better for me

BTW I* still like the 1983 Ponelle film version *some of the visuals are quite compelling and well thought out like the glimmering tree scence used for cover artwork, some say it is for beginers but I say no no no :angel:


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

Very happy that my library has the earlier Meier, saving me from bankruptcy. It will be with me on Wednesday.


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## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

Couchie said:


> 1995 Barenboim DVD with Jerusalem and Meier. I have seen most DVDs and this one is incomparable, the absolute peak.
> 
> "Whats the emotional hook, is it just purely a love story?"
> 
> That made me LOL. Nobody can describe Tristan to you. You're in for a treat.


Oh great, a mystery! Well, we'll see. Thanks for the recommendation.


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## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

mamascarlatti said:


> Tristan an Isolde took a lot longer for me to get into - I had to see it to "get" it. I like this DVD:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Isn't it awful how much money it costs? But it's all worth it. I believe the Lohengrin you recommend is the same one that sospiro's selection was from. I watched about an hour of it at the library and all the performances except Vogt's seem a lot weaker than the Abbado one. And Domingo really is not a bad Lohengrin either. You could see the high range was a stretch but he did make it, didn't fail dramatically that I could see. Well, I didn't see enough of Meier's Ortrud to be able to compare those two roles. But the Abbado DVD's Herald was so much stronger, Telramund was, the King was, Cheryl Studer's Elsa OMG she was good. That one performance should have made her a legend. Maybe it did make her a legend in Europe, although I didn't notice that her Vespri Siciliani was that great.


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## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

Glissando said:


> _Tristan_ is basically a "love story," yet it is nuanced and complex. Wagner depicts two people falling in love, and yet to me one of the fascinating things is that there is always an ironic distance that casts doubt on the worthiness of this illicit passion. Is this a story about a glorious redemption of true love in the face of worldly power and repressive customs, or is it the story of two people who were taken prisoner by their obsessions, losing grip on reality? It is both.


Wow - THAT sounds interesting! Well, I've come to enjoy the complexity Wagner infuses into his other dramas, so I'm sure I'll enjoy this as well. My respect for Wagner is definitely growing. What other great composer wrote his own librettos?



> This opera was very much an acquired taste for me. The music is challenging and very intricate. Wagner does use some leitmotifs in _Tristan_, but they are fewer and farther between than in _The Ring_. The long, arching vocal melodies did not make sense to me for a while. Once everything 'clicked,' I began to understand it, and now I think it is one of the greatest scores ever.


Wagner in general has been an acquired taste for me. I tried again and again with Meistersinger, Der Fliegende Hollaender, Das Rheingold, didn't get anywhere until I came here and started talking about it - and now I am making progress. So I'm starting to have a little more confidence in my ability to enjoy his music.

Thanks so much for your advice.


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## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

emiellucifuge said:


> Its a little more than a love story, its a great metaphor for Schopenhauerian metaphysics.
> 
> This is an interesting link:
> http://www.utexas.edu/courses/tristan/wagner.php


Thanks. I did read the wikipedia article, and it was pretty straightforward regarding the Schopenheuristics. I thought it made a good introduction - we'll see after I watch the opera! I tried the Heppner/Eaglen version and couldn't get through it, but I'll try one of the Barenboim/Meier productions probably, we'll see how that goes.


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## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

DarkAngel said:


> I sold this a couple years ago, the earlier Watraud Meier/Barenboim Couchie mentioned works much better for me
> 
> BTW I* still like the 1983 Ponelle film version *some of the visuals are quite compelling and well thought out like the glimmering tree scence used for cover artwork, some say it is for beginers but I say no no no :angel:


So ultimately you're thinking I'm going to want TWO versions. No surprise there! :lol:


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## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

mamascarlatti said:


> Very happy that my library has the earlier Meier, saving me from bankruptcy. It will be with me on Wednesday.


Ah no, bankruptcy is only DELAYED. Once you've watched it, you will HAVE TO BUY!!! :devil:


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## MAuer (Feb 6, 2011)

guythegreg said:


> Isn't it awful how much money it costs? But it's all worth it. I believe the Lohengrin you recommend is the same one that sospiro's selection was from. I watched about an hour of it at the library and all the performances except Vogt's seem a lot weaker than the Abbado one. And Domingo really is not a bad Lohengrin either. You could see the high range was a stretch but he did make it, didn't fail dramatically that I could see. Well, I didn't see enough of Meier's Ortrud to be able to compare those two roles. But the Abbado DVD's Herald was so much stronger, Telramund was, the King was, Cheryl Studer's Elsa OMG she was good. That one performance should have made her a legend. Maybe it did make her a legend in Europe, although I didn't notice that her Vespri Siciliani was that great.


If you don't mind a very non-traditional production, I can strongly recommend the _Lohengrin_ video with Kaufmann and Harteros as the two protagonists. Here's a sample:






Michaela Schuster's Ortrud isn't quite on a par with Meier, but she's still very good.


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## Cavaradossi (Aug 2, 2012)

guythegreg said:


> Thanks. I did read the wikipedia article, and it was pretty straightforward regarding the Schopenheuristics. I thought it made a good introduction - we'll see after I watch the opera! I tried the Heppner/Eaglen version and couldn't get through it, but I'll try one of the Barenboim/Meier productions probably, we'll see how that goes.


GTG - I like your interest in and emphasis on the drama. I think that's the right way to approach opera, though I'm never opposed to a bit of 'ear candy' either. Yep, the "Schopenheuristics" make all the difference in following the action, such as it is. When he saw it, Twain was probably the only one not swooning with German romantic fatalism at the time. You've got to rememember this isn't just boy meets girl, either. It's boy kills girl's fiancee, girl cures boy's near fatal wound, boy conquers girl's father and abducts girl... and that's all before the love potion.

Now, if you'll indulge me a bit of bragging... I'm a huge Barenboim fan from his years here in Chicago, so I _had_ to see his T&I at the Met in 2008. The scheduled Isolde, Katarina Dalayman, was ill, so they flew in Meier on eight hours notice. One of the few times the cover represented an upgrade in casting. From what I experienced, any version involving Barenboim and Meier will likely be definitive.


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

MAuer said:


> If you don't mind a very non-traditional production, I can strongly recommend the _Lohengrin_ video with Kaufmann and Harteros as the two protagonists. Here's a sample:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yes, this is brilliant too, humanising the story in a very innovative way. I was just easing him in before I recommended this:lol:.


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

guythegreg said:


> Isn't it awful how much money it costs? But it's all worth it. I believe the Lohengrin you recommend is the same one that sospiro's selection was from.


Actually it was my recommendation. Annie would rather gnaw off her own toenails than listen to Wagner.

And the excerpt came from the 2011 Bayreuth version, complete with high-fiving rats and ambulant foetuses, which is available for your delectation complete on youtube:

Part one



> Well, I didn't see enough of Meier's Ortrud to be able to compare those two roles.


Meier is the best Ortrud aver. SCARY. If it's available at the library, free, it's worth watching for her.


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## Glissando (Nov 25, 2011)

guythegreg said:


> Wagner in general has been an acquired taste for me. I tried again and again with Meistersinger, Der Fliegende Hollaender, Das Rheingold, didn't get anywhere until I came here and started talking about it - and now I am making progress. So I'm starting to have a little more confidence in my ability to enjoy his music.
> 
> Thanks so much for your advice.


Yes, it has been exactly the same for me. There have been several times when I've given up on Wagner, only to come back to him later, and begin to really appreciate it. I think this is probably pretty common, from what I've heard others say.


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## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

MAuer said:


> If you don't mind a very non-traditional production, I can strongly recommend the _Lohengrin_ video with Kaufmann and Harteros as the two protagonists.


Wow - thrilling! I'll have to check into that a bit more. Thanks.


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## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

Cavaradossi said:


> GTG - I like your interest in and emphasis on the drama. I think that's the right way to approach opera, though I'm never opposed to a bit of 'ear candy' either. Yep, the "Schopenheuristics" make all the difference in following the action, such as it is. When he saw it, Twain was probably the only one not swooning with German romantic fatalism at the time. You've got to rememember this isn't just boy meets girl, either. It's boy kills girl's fiancee, girl cures boy's near fatal wound, boy conquers girl's father and abducts girl... and that's all before the love potion.
> 
> Now, if you'll indulge me a bit of bragging... I'm a huge Barenboim fan from his years here in Chicago, so I _had_ to see his T&I at the Met in 2008. The scheduled Isolde, Katarina Dalayman, was ill, so they flew in Meier on eight hours notice. One of the few times the cover represented an upgrade in casting. From what I experienced, any version involving Barenboim and Meier will likely be definitive.


Well, sounds like you're way ahead of me in Wagner appreciation anyway ... but I'm getting there! It does sound like you had a wonderful time.


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## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

mamascarlatti said:


> Actually it was my recommendation. Annie would rather gnaw off her own toenails than listen to Wagner.


AKKKKK!!! You're right! Sorry. la la la ... Nixon in China, la la la ...


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## dionisio (Jul 30, 2012)

My recommendation is 1966 Karl Böhm's Tristan und Isolde with Wolfgang Windgassen, Birgit Nilsson, Christa Ludwig, Martti Talvela Bayreuth Festival Orchestra, Bayreuth Festival Chorus. Recording of a performance at the Bayreuth Festival, August

I find difficult to top that one. Right tempi, wagnerian legends, great recording from 1966.

But i only know the CD version (i don't know if it exists a video version). Nevertheless this my recommendation.


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

Couchie said:


> Please get it. You will not regret it. You cannot afford to die without seeing Meier's Isolde.


You were right abut this DVD. Spectacular, heart-breaking, Meier breathtaking.


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

mamascarlatti said:


> You were right abut this DVD. Spectacular, heart-breaking, Meier breathtaking.


I'm glad you liked it. It is truly one of the most compelling things I have ever seen committed to film!


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## MAuer (Feb 6, 2011)

Der Sigi in the role of Tristan isn't too shabby, either.


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

MAuer said:


> Der Sigi in the role of Tristan isn't too shabby, either.


Yes, he certainly sounded pretty good.


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## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

Well, I watched the complete Johanna Meier/Rene Kollo version yesterday and so far: nada. Sleepiness. NNgh! I'll have to see if I can find the Waltraud Meier/Siegfried Jerusalem edition and have another go at it then.


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## drpraetorus (Aug 9, 2012)

Tristan is a perfect example of the one thing lacking in Wagner; A GOOD EDITOR. I love Wagner, but really, is an opera the appropriate venue for a discussion of Schopenhauerian philosophy? It seems, to me at least, that the second act would be far better without all the light vs. dark meaning of "und" stuff. Maybe if they had stopped with the philosophy and got on with things, they would have consumated their relationship. The first and third acts could use some editing as well. And the less said about King Mark (boring is just a start) the better. 

I vote for Solti, Neilson, Vienna Phil.


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

drpraetorus said:


> Tristan is a perfect example of the one thing lacking in Wagner; A GOOD EDITOR. I love Wagner, but really, is an opera the appropriate venue for a discussion of Schopenhauerian philosophy? It seems, to me at least, that the second act would be far better without all the light vs. dark meaning of "und" stuff. Maybe if they had stopped with the philosophy and got on with things, they would have consumated their relationship.


Then Tristan und Isolde would just be _every other love story ever told_.

It is the obsession of the insatiability of the will that catapults Tristan to the perceived limit of human desire and gives the opera its otherworldly emotional potency.

In your opera, you would have to scrap the Liebestod because it would have no meaning.

Look at the blasphemy you are spewing.


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## dionisio (Jul 30, 2012)

drpraetorus said:


> Tristan is a perfect example of the one thing lacking in Wagner; A GOOD EDITOR. I love Wagner, but really, is an opera the appropriate venue for a discussion of Schopenhauerian philosophy? It seems, to me at least, that the second act would be far better without all the light vs. dark meaning of "und" stuff. Maybe if they had stopped with the philosophy and got on with things, they would have consumated their relationship. The first and third acts could use some editing as well. And the less said about King Mark (boring is just a start) the better.
> 
> I vote for Solti, Neilson, Vienna Phil.


It would be like turning Gabriel Garcia Marquez " Love in the Time of Cholera" or Goethe's "Werther" into any book of Nicholas Sparks or those of the Twilight saga. (Confession: Sometimes when i talk with some friends of mine once in a while about Götterdammerung, i simply call it "Twilight". When they see how serious i am about it they get confused. True story)

Thank you but it is not for me.

If it was just another love story (that is without Schopenhauer) would there be the desire motif? Grief motiv? Day motif? Love motif? Death motif? And their relation?

it is curious how in life we see often these motifs connected. Wagner put it to music. Now if someone says "There's no need for the singers to sing because the orchestra tells you all", there i'd have to agree with some of it.


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## principe (Sep 3, 2012)

Tristan und Isolde is Wagner for the musicians, as once a scholar has claimed. It's the optimum work of this Master for the glory of Music: An ambivalent and obscure chord at the very beginning of the _Einleitung_ (Introduction) is wondering around the whole work for more than four hours to find its _actual_ resolution at the end of Liebestod! Something beyond any human perception and musical norm and never repeated again!
As for the subject, it is the glorification of Love, in terms of almost a religious affair: the two actors of Love made their critical _decision_ to go for it, despite the fate awaiting for them, the normes, the decorum even their tasks. The Love potion represents this fatal decision, which, however, is the essence of a passionate Love beyond conditions and normes. The Liebestod is the redemption in death and is represented with a sublime rapturous music of the most ecstatic power.
Wagner has managed to capture, more than in any other of his monumental works, the essence of his concept of _Gesamtwerk_ (Total Work), using some of the most coherent, passionate and sublime music in a way to lead the prepared listener to a true labyrinth of immense musical and poetic (in the broader sense) beauty.
I believe that, for someone to start indulging in this huge and of enormous proportion work, it is better to get into it with a recording rather than a video. The work has been served quite well in CD, so the choices are quite a few. My suggestion is to listen to as many as possible but taking your time, reading as much the linear notes and any additional material (if possible by Wagner himself or by his "disciples"), studying the actual score (for those who can read music) or reading material on the analysis of the very complex but fully rewarding score. This is not Alla Turca or Eine kleine Nachtmusik. You have to be attentive and determined, at least to some considerable extent. (This is not music for casual listening).

Principe


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## DarkAngel (Aug 11, 2010)

mamascarlatti said:


> You were right abut this DVD. Spectacular, heart-breaking, Meier breathtaking.


I watched this again recently and will agree certain parts are very well done, the *final death song Liebestod is perhaps the greatest most moving Wagner scence captured on disc for me.*....

but I was left cold by act 2 garden love scence. Seemed to be two scientists discussing love as an abstract concept with very little physical contact. That cover photo is about as physically passionate as they get, there were certain points where they hold thier hands up but stay seperated by a couple inches further emphasizing this physical "distance" and keeping love on a purely abstract platonic level that does not require physical contact.

Perhaps the director was trying to make some deeper point or comment about physical love vs abstract obsessive love that is stronger and purer....whatever the case I was not really satisfied with consumation of love between Tristan ans Islode as depicted here.


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

principe said:


> I believe that, for someone to start indulging in this huge and of enormous proportion work, it is better to get into it with a recording rather than a video.


It's interesting isn't it, that what works for one person doesn't for another.

All attempts to get into this work via CD failed miserably for me. But I was hooked at my first video, and now will listen or watch with equal pleasure.


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

DarkAngel said:


> I watched this again recently and will agree certain parts are very well done, the *final death song Liebestod is perhaps the greatest most moving Wagner scence captured on disc for me.*....
> 
> but I was left cold by act 2 garden love scence. Seemed to be two scientists discussing love as an abstract concept with very little physical contact. That cover photo is about as physically passionate as they get, there were certain points where they hold thier hands up but stay seperated by a couple inches further emphasizing this physical "distance" and keeping love on a purely abstract platonic level that does not require physical contact.
> 
> Perhaps the director was trying to make some deeper point or comment about physical love vs abstract obsessive love that is stronger and purer....whatever the case I was not really satisfied with consumation of love between Tristan ans Islode as depicted here.


Isn't the point that they *can't* consummate their love?

Like it or not, the libretto calls for Tristan and Isolde to get together and philosophize about love for 45 minutes in Act II rather than kiss and have sex like normal people. Act II is actually my favourite act of the DVD.


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## principe (Sep 3, 2012)

Mamascarlatti, what I try to imply was that, if you really wish to comprehend this complex but immensely rewarding and glorious score, you need a recording (the best possible, in terms of clarity and analysis), so that you may be able to follow the orchestral colours, the huge structure and to enjoy the incredibly demanding vocal lines, without any visual distraction even if it might be...pertinent.
By all means, if you're interested in a general perception of the work, any video might deliver. However, Wagner is remembered, like any other great composer, for his music...only.

Principe


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

principe said:


> Mamascarlatti, what I try to imply was that, if you really wish to comprehend this complex but immensely rewarding and glorious score, you need a recording (the best possible, in terms of clarity and analysis), so that you may be able to follow the orchestral colours, the huge structure and to enjoy the incredibly demanding vocal lines, without any visual distraction even if it might be...pertinent.


Wonderful way of putting it. What I was really saying is that the path for me, towards WANTING to listen very carefully and appreciate it more fully, was to see it first on video.

So what works for one person (for you the CD route, for instance) might not work for another (for me the video route in).

Of course the ideal for me is the live performance with great singers route, because it engages every atom of my being.


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## dionisio (Jul 30, 2012)

principe said:


> However, Wagner is remembered, like any other great composer, for his music...only.
> 
> Principe


Humm...of all composers, i think this one is not known only for is music....

It seems to me that for Wagner music was just a mean to an end.


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## DarkAngel (Aug 11, 2010)

Couchie said:


> Isn't the point that they *can't* consummate their love?
> 
> Like it or not, the libretto calls for Tristan and Isolde to get together and philosophize about love for 45 minutes in Act II rather than kiss and have sex like normal people. Act II is actually my favourite act of the DVD.


At least they remove those spaceman glow tube shoulder pads in act 2........any explanation for what those are all about?


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

DarkAngel said:


> At least they remove those spaceman glow tube shoulder pads in act 2........any explanation for what those are all about?


From an amazon review (written I believe by our dear friend Amfortas):

_"All the characters wear severe black cassocks, along with odd but strangely arresting clear plastic yokes which signify their enthrallment to the mundane world of obligations and social ties (the lovers remove theirs upon drinking the love potion)."_


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## principe (Sep 3, 2012)

Fair enough, mamascarlatti. Just to mention that, whenever I have attended a live "Opera" (Gesamtwerk,he call it) by Wagner, the journey gets so tiring, as the work progresses up to 4-5 (or even 6) hours, so that attentiveness gradually fades away. To some extent, artists feel the same way, almost often.

Dionisio, I don't know what you imply with your last sentence. However, for sure Wagner composed some of the most glorious and perfect scores in the Classical Music realm. He wrote the texts for his Gesamtwerke (the Total Works, as he called his "Operas"), but almost none considers him as a great poet. He was a visionary director of his works, but who cares anymore. He had also a strong view for Bayreuth, but nobody mentions his architectural talent. In short, even if music was a "means" to another end, people, History and the posterity in general remembers and honours him for this particular "means". He was predominantly a composer.

Principe


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## dionisio (Jul 30, 2012)

principe said:


> Dionisio, I don't know what you imply with your last sentence. However, for sure Wagner composed some of the most glorious and perfect scores in the Classical Music realm. He wrote the texts for his Gesamtwerke (the Total Works, as he called his "Operas"), but almost none considers him as a great poet. He was a visionary director of his works, but who cares anymore. He had also a strong view for Bayreuth, but nobody mentions his architectural talent. In short, even if music was a "means" to another end, people, History and the posterity in general remembers and honours him for this particular "means". He was predominantly a composer.
> Principe


Principe, sometimes i feel that a war is about to begin somewhere. I hope not  I wasn't implying nothing.

But when i mentioned what i have mentioned i merely meant (with no other intentions or whatsoever) that Wagner besides is music (wonderful as everybody here knows) was a titan in other areas. Because we all love opera, or else we wouldn't be here writing, we give music a bigger importance than to other stuff.

Wagner was one of the best conductors in the 19th century and his influence on this subject still prevails. Several sources say that.

Also he was one of the most important music theorists in that century. His essays on orchestration (with Berlioz's Treatise) are the pretty foundations of the conducting as we know today. (I confess i lack some experience in this matter for i'm no conductor nor professional musician. I only read and play music as an amateur).

Wagner was a great stage director and dramaturg. More than music, Wagner was theater. In this case, music was a mean to its end (theater). His views on theater had a deep impact in it.

Wagner's number of essays are amazingly greater than Wagner's operas. Essays about pretty much everything (even about animal vivissection).

Whether one agrees or not, he was a phillosopher of art. In any book about art/music phillosophy his name appear. I've read several books about other styles of music (even folk music) and his name, when i expected the least, appears not because of his music but for his views on how music should be used.

He was man of Revolution (as he always thought he was). Wagner is somehow better known to the fact he was an _enfant terrible_, a polemicist that just for his music. The fact that he change music to something that was never heard before is stronger that the music for itself. Altough no the first one, his dramas gained a political dimension that few others did, not for the music (as Beethoven for example) but for the message (music+libretto+essays+stage+etc.)

A many people know Wagner for the wrong reasons sadly (no reasons need to be mentioned)

It is difficult separate his music from his operas. Do his librettos alone stand on their own? I think not. As for the music i'd rather think the same thing. His views on stage, libretto, music must all combine (like Dragon Ball's fusion hehehehe) for the sake of theater and not the music. Like Verdi (from a different school), first is theater than comes music.

And also Wagner is know outside "our" circle as a stereotype gag: the fat Viking women screaming, the operas that go for hours and no one can stand them, hellicopters, the word Wagnerian that means extremely boring or long or enourmous, etc. (i hope Principe you don't get offended with this paragraph)

For his music alone, he does not stand. Opera/Theater was his speciality. In other forms of music, his fall into oblivion easier.

Thus came what i said.

(just for the record, i'm a great Wagner fan and i try deeply to avoid the danger to let myself get caught in this madness that is the Wagnerian universe)


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## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

principe said:


> ... almost none considers him as a great poet. He was a visionary director of his works, but who cares anymore. He had also a strong view for Bayreuth, but nobody mentions his architectural talent. In short, even if music was a "means" to another end, people, History and the posterity in general remembers and honours him for this particular "means". He was predominantly a composer.
> 
> Principe


I am no Wagner expert, but I sure don't remember him primarily for his music. If you believe you speak for all music experts (that's what you seem to be doing), that seems a bit much. (Not to mention that, as we've seen before, experts can go horribly wrong.) What I love Wagner for was what a great dramatist he was - uniquely, as far as I can see, among the great composers.

I think, just as everyone hears one recording or one performance a little differently, everyone who loves Wagner will love him a little differently. There's plenty to love.


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## principe (Sep 3, 2012)

What I'm trying to say, dionisio and guythegreg, is, despite all Wagner's talents (and he had enough indeed), without his unique and quite influential music, none of his other "virtues" will survive. Even if he was a great conductor (and he was based on all the exisitng info), who remembers or honours conductors of the past in the same way as the composers (Mendelssohn and Mahler were too, but are their attainments in this field ever honoured?).
In any case, I speak from the side of an amateur musician's point of view, who, however, is involved in music-making along with other musicians. So, perhaps music means and speaks more to me. However, I can assure you if his music one day collapses (for any reason; and there are quite a few for those who detest him for other than his music reasons), neither his dramaturgy nor his other incredible abilities and achievements will save the Wagner's "edifice".
For the record, I am a Wagner _fidel_ too.

Principe


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## dionisio (Jul 30, 2012)

principe said:


> What I'm trying to say, dionisio and guythegreg, is, despite all Wagner's talents (and he had enough indeed), without his unique and quite influential music, none of his other "virtues" will survive. Even if he was a great conductor (and he was based on all the exisitng info), who remembers or honours conductors of the past in the same way as the composers (Mendelssohn and Mahler were too, but are their attainments in this field ever honoured?).
> In any case, I speak from the side of an amateur musician's point of view, who, however, is involved in music-making along with other musicians. So, perhaps music means and speaks more to me. However, I can assure you if his music one day collapses (for any reason; and there are quite a few for those who detest him for other than his music reasons), neither his dramaturgy nor his other incredible abilities and achievements will save the Wagner's "edifice".
> For the record, I am a Wagner _fidel_ too.
> 
> Principe


Principe, i forgot one of the most important things about Wagner:

Wagner, writeen in every book of music, is known also as a path breaker on harmony, reached chromaticism to its maximum level, break the tonality, etc.

And to me, personally, Wagner, more than music, is a great inspiration when it comes to achievements in life. In History there has not been so many people with his strength. He was Gesamkunstwerk in person, like da Vinci, Michael Angelo and Newton.


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

principe said:


> Fair enough, mamascarlatti. Just to mention that, whenever I have attended a live "Opera" (Gesamtwerk,he call it) by Wagner, the journey gets so tiring, as the work progresses up to 4-5 (or even 6) hours, so that attentiveness gradually fades away. To some extent, artists feel the same way, almost often.


I'm unlikely to ever attend a live Wagner event (apart from the occasional concert performance of one opera from the ring, all we get in NZ) but I go to HD Met cinema braodcasts - can't say I got bored or tired in the Ring, although honesty compels me to say my attention can fade in and out sometimes -I'm listening but also thinking about other stuff.

Parsifal this season is going to test my stamina, I reckon; I've been putting some work in to get to know it better but as I don't have a mystical cell in my body the plotline does not appeal to me. I'll have to rely on my animal instincts to see me through (Jonas Kaufmann).


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## Wandering (Feb 27, 2012)

I still think Isolde summoning the storm shortly after the opening prelude is maybe the most powerful female vocal ever. I'm not saying the most beautiful, but the most powerful. 

Some guys are into that type of thing, I'm one of them. 

The Furtwangler-Flagstad has the best storm-summoning I know of.


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## principe (Sep 3, 2012)

Dionisio, the "most important features" about Wagner you mentioned are about his Music, which I also advocate he is remembered and deeply honoured. And you don't need a considerable bravery to _break the harmony or reach chromaticism, even to its maximum, or to break the tonality_. Other composers have done it before too, not to that degree, I admit. The difference with Wagner was that he managed to do all these "brave" advances to the development of (classical) music in a way that he has never been accused that he broke with or did not respect tradition!
However, allow me to disagree that he was a _Gesamtkunstwerkmann_. Da Vinci can be remembered and _honoured_ for two or three of this trades. Michael Angelo too, albeit only in Art, Newton as well but in science only. 
The question you have to ask to yourself is _to what extent_ Wagner is remembered in books and honoured in functions, all over the world, apart from his incredibly significant and immensely beautiful and profound music. Having said that I do not ignore or diminish his extraordinary abilities in so many other fields, but I just claim that, without his music, all his other abilities, contributions, achievemnents would be of academic interest. One has to consider, finally, that, while we may talk for ages about his music and its implications, how many and for how long can debate about his poetry or literature legacy, his dramaturgy as such (can his works be played as dramas without the music?), his direction skills and any other of the many important skills he had.

Principe


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## dionisio (Jul 30, 2012)

Principe, you have your opinion and i have mine. This conversation is going nowhere.

For you Wagner is music, for me is theater all together. 

As long we respect each other opinion, no further discussion is needed about this subject.


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## principe (Sep 3, 2012)

Dionisio, Wagner is theater to me as well. I first mentioned about his _Gesamtwerke_ and not his Operas. The only difference we have is that I advocate in favour of his music, since I believe his was above all a glorious composer, more than anything else. We are not that far apart and I don't wish to keep our interesting exchanges at the level of a ping-pong of mere opinions.
However, I agree that we have made our points crystal clear. So, we may stop here, till another thread on this Great Man pops up.

Principe


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## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

mamascarlatti said:


> Parsifal this season is going to test my stamina, I reckon; I've been putting some work in to get to know it better but as I don't have a mystical cell in my body the plotline does not appeal to me. I'll have to rely on my animal instincts to see me through (Jonas Kuafmann).


Gosh, have you at least TRIED the James Levine DVD with Siegfried Jerusalem and Waltraud Meier? Boy, it got the job done for me.


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

guythegreg said:


> Gosh, have you at least TRIED the James Levine DVD with Siegfried Jerusalem and Waltraud Meier? Boy, it got the job done for me.


Funnily enough the one that worked best for me was the recent Herheim Bayreuth one - I think because it was not mystical, but historical at at times rather twisted. The story in that original form does not appeal to me (I'm talking storyline, not music, which IS sublime).

I've seen three other versions apart from that. All that talk of redeemers makes me queasy,


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## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

mamascarlatti said:


> Funnily enough the one that worked best for me was the recent Herheim Bayreuth one - I think because it was not mystical, but historical at at times rather twisted. The story in that original form does not appeal to me (I'm talking storyline, not music, which IS sublime).
> 
> I've seen three other versions apart from that. All that talk of redeemers makes me queasy,


Yeah, I can understand some people might feel it's a bit preachy. I'll look for that Herheim video, thanks.


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## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

Huh, can't find anything on Amazon. Who's in it?


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

guythegreg said:


> Huh, can't find anything on Amazon. Who's in it?


mamascarlatti has gone over to the dark side. Do not heed the great evil of which she speaks.


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

Couchie said:


> mamascarlatti has gone over to the dark side. Do not heed the great *evil *of which she speaks.


Yeah, it's called YouTube.


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## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

mamascarlatti said:


> Yeah, it's called YouTube.


Ah, the famous tool of evil ... or perhaps the tool of Dr. Evil ... didn't bring my headphones dang it! (the rebel bell) thanks, will listen later ...


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## SiegendesLicht (Mar 4, 2012)

Just curious: why is it that so many Wagner admirers list _Tristan und Isolde _ as their favorite among his operas? Of course, it is glorious just like the rest of them, but what is so special about it that so many people put it above, say, _Der Ring_ or _Parsifal_?


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## Aksel (Dec 3, 2010)

SiegendesLicht said:


> Just curious: why is it that so many Wagner admirers list _Tristan und Isolde _ as their favorite among his operas? Of course, it is glorious just like the rest of them, but what is so special about it that so many people put it above, say, _Der Ring_ or _Parsifal_?


Because deep inside we all need a little love.


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## dionisio (Jul 30, 2012)

SiegendesLicht said:


> Just curious: why is it that so many Wagner admirers list _Tristan und Isolde _ as their favorite among his operas? Of course, it is glorious just like the rest of them, but what is so special about it that so many people put it above, say, _Der Ring_ or _Parsifal_?


No other pieace of music has yet struck me like a thunderbolt like this one.

There is, thank God, plenty of beautiful music that perhaps are better than this one, but Tristan affected me like no other work of art.

Perhaps it's a platonic love. Or perhaps it's just love. There are beautiful girls in the world, until one day i find that one...


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## principe (Sep 3, 2012)

It's one of these very few works that tries to express whatever "Love" may be in its fullest form. Based on the composer himself (and quite a few analysts agree on that), in Tristan, there is depicted even the _orgasmic_ love (Act II love duet, the resolution of the Tristan chord in the "Liebestod", etc.).
Besides, musically speaking, it is a huge work of perfect writing. Not even Parsifal has the same tight and perfect form and resolution. _Die Meistersinger_ is also an incredible work of almost equally great music form and resolution (and some very great choral writing). "Der Ring" is for the big public. It's the greatest and biggest achievement in the composition's record (considering it as a whole).

Principe


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## Ebab (Mar 9, 2013)

SiegendesLicht said:


> Just curious: why is it that so many Wagner admirers list _Tristan und Isolde _ as their favorite among his operas? Of course, it is glorious just like the rest of them, but what is so special about it that so many people put it above, say, _Der Ring_ or _Parsifal_?


Part of the attraction is the joy of morbidity. I mean, I love life. But for a couple of hours, this is the ultimate flirt - the flirt with death and its promise of releasing all inhibitions and barriers, of ecstatically dissolving the self into the mysterious cosmic consciousness that we once emerged from.

Terminally frivolous, and maybe just a little bit sick, too. But then, it's just for a couple of hours.

Or is it?

:lol:


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## sharik (Jan 23, 2013)

guythegreg said:


> the next Wagner opera on my list really should be Tristan und Isolde


- the best of his, by the way.



guythegreg said:


> what grabs you about this opera, apart from the music of course?


- its philosophical meaning, this one is the only opera that deals with philosophy to such an extent.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

sharik said:


> - the best of his, by the way.
> 
> - its philosophical meaning, this one is the only opera that deals with philosophy to such an extent.


Philosophy? That love is consummated in death? I note our Richard didn't go in for that much himself!


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

principe said:


> It's one of these very few works that tries to express whatever "Love" may be in its fullest form. Based on the composer himself (and quite a few analysts agree on that), in Tristan, there is depicted even the _orgasmic_ love (Act II love duet, the resolution of the Tristan chord in the "Liebestod", etc.).
> Besides, musically speaking, it is a huge work of perfect writing. Not even Parsifal has the same tight and perfect form and resolution. _Die Meistersinger_ is also an incredible work of almost equally great music form and resolution (and some very great choral writing). "Der Ring" is for the big public. It's the greatest and biggest achievement in the composition's record (considering it as a whole).
> 
> Principe


Do they ever get round to the orgasmic phase? Tristan seems to me to be the longest coitus-interruptus in the whole of music.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

SiegendesLicht said:


> Just curious: why is it that so many Wagner admirers list _Tristan und Isolde _ as their favorite among his operas? Of course, it is glorious just like the rest of them, but what is so special about it that so many people put it above, say, _Der Ring_ or _Parsifal_?


it is, of course, shorter than either!


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## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

sharik said:


> - the best of his, by the way.
> 
> - its philosophical meaning, this one is the only opera that deals with philosophy to such an extent.


... I'm temporarily on a Wagner hiatus, due to the pressure of preparing for next year's season ... perhaps in a year or so.


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## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

sharik said:


> - its philosophical meaning, this one is the only opera that deals with philosophy to such an extent.


Definitely not true. Schoenberg's Moses und Aron, for one, is far more philosophically inclined. For all of the libretto's faults (not to mention the pains it takes to stage it well), it does take on the difficult subject of expressing the inexpressible, how far expression can reach, and so forth.


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## sharik (Jan 23, 2013)

DavidA said:


> Philosophy? That love is consummated in death? I note our Richard didn't go in for that much himself!


Shopenheuer did (philosophically).


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## sharik (Jan 23, 2013)

Mahlerian said:


> Schoenberg's Moses und Aron, for one, is far more philosophically inclined


it's a biblical one, not philosophical.


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

SiegendesLicht said:


> Just curious: why is it that so many Wagner admirers list _Tristan und Isolde _ as their favorite among his operas? Of course, it is glorious just like the rest of them, but what is so special about it that so many people put it above, say, _Der Ring_ or _Parsifal_?


I like that I can breathe _Tristan und Isolde _in a catatonic state of emblazoned bliss. _The Ring _and _Parsifal _are a little too cerebral for that.


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## Zabirilog (Mar 10, 2013)

I'm going to see Tristan in May!  Tristan is Robert Dean Smith, any reviews of him? Marke is the best possible, Matti.

I find Barenboim's Bayreuth Tristan with Jerusalem and Meier simply the best on DVD. Even the direction is kind of boring, the fantastic singers and conductor make it still the best.


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

Zabirilog said:


> I find Barenboim's Bayreuth Tristan with Jerusalem and Meier simply the best on DVD. Even the direction is kind of boring, the fantastic singers and conductor make it still the best.


It is the best thing on DVD, period.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

sharik said:


> Shopenheuer did (philosophically).


What do you mean?


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## sharik (Jan 23, 2013)

DavidA said:


> What do you mean?


that Shopenhauer philosophy pervades _Tristan Und Isolde_.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

sharik said:


> that Shopenhauer philosophy pervades _Tristan Und Isolde_.


I know, but Wagner never believed in practice the love-death condemnation that pervades Tristan. Else, why didn't he practise it? I don't know that Shopenhauer believed it in practice either!


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## sharik (Jan 23, 2013)

DavidA said:


> why didn't he practise it? I don't know that Shopenhauer believed it in practice either!


well its only philosophy intended for generations to come after all, even Nietzsche was nothing but a book worm.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

sharik said:


> well its only philosophy intended for generations to come after all, even Nietzsche was nothing but a book worm.


It just means, then, that these people don't believe what they teach. Else they'd practice it!


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## Ysolt (Jun 26, 2014)

dionisio said:


> My recommendation is 1966 Karl Böhm's Tristan und Isolde with Wolfgang Windgassen, Birgit Nilsson, Christa Ludwig, Martti Talvela Bayreuth Festival Orchestra, Bayreuth Festival Chorus. Recording of a performance at the Bayreuth Festival, August
> 
> I find difficult to top that one. Right tempi, wagnerian legends, great recording from 1966.
> 
> But i only know the CD version (i don't know if it exists a video version). Nevertheless this my recommendation.


I don't know if someone has already replied regarding this but a bootleg video of this production exists (Osaka 1967 - Bayreuth tour). It's currently on youtube but is also available on sites such as House of Opera etc. Of course, in a production where the use of colour and lighting was central, the recording is in B&W.

Nevertheless, for me the 1966 recording is unsurpassable and as a result, the production it came from is as close to perfection as I can come. Plus, I greatly admire Wieland's sets & Wagnerian style.

The Meier/Jerusalem DVD is great too, but for me she will always be Ortrud, like Birgit will always be Isolde.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

One of the reasons for Tristan being so special is the amount of spectacularly glorious music 
Wagner composed in it just for Brangane , a secondary character. Not just the Warning in the Love Duet but some of those incredible tunes she sings in Act !. The wide spectrum of music from ecstatic to vengeful to tender written for the two leads is almost unique in opera.


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## Allanmcf (May 29, 2014)

I have recently watched the 2009 Bayreuth Tristan. Very well sung and the Marthaler production is intriguing. Altogether a pretty fine Tristan. You can watch it on YouTube.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Please don't shoot me all at once , but this is one of my favourites.
The love duet is almost sexual.

​


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