# My shameful gaps in opera exposure - what are yours?



## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

The "Talk Classical Top 100 Recommended Operas" thread and its various associated lists (from the thread that gave birth to it) made me realize, to my dismay, how many important operas I haven't seen or heard yet. Oh boy. I thought I had a pretty decent exposure but there are enormous gaps. The good news is that I have it all relatively figured out with a plan to eliminate the gaps; the bad news is that it will take a while (several months) to get to all of them.

Here is my list, and how I'll get about seeing/listening to these operas:

* means that I own this opera already but I haven't heard it or watched it yet (I know I'm setting myself up for a visit from the Unwatched Police, uhoh!)

N means that I have this opera DVD on my Netflix queue and will get to it relatively soon (I get two from them every week)

MetPlayer Audio means that I plan to listen to this opera through my new subscription to the same since I couldn't find a DVD of it on Naxos, Netflix, or MetPlayer, and I don't feel like buying it.

Naxos - this opera is available for viewing online through my Naxos membership which expires on 12/31/10 so I still have a few weeks to get to it.

T is for tickets that I have purchased already; the venue is between parenthesis.

----------------------

L'Africaine - Meyerbeer *
Arabella - R. Strauss*
Ariodante - Handel - Naxos (I may start it later today... or maybe not. It's getting late)
Attila - Verdi - N
Atys - Lully *
Billy Budd - Britten *
Bluebeard's Castle - Bartok *
Capriccio - R. Strauss - T (Met in HD)
The threepenny Opera - Weill - N
The flying Dutchman - Wagner - N (number 1 in my queue, should arrive this Friday, it's rather shameful that I don't know it )
Die Frau Ohne Schatten - R. Strauss *
From the House of the Dead - Janacek *
The Golden Cockerel - Rimsky-Korsakoff *
La Gioconda - Ponchielli * (I have listened to 80% of it while driving during a trip, but then I arrived and never managed to listen to the rest)
Iphigenia in Tauris - Gluck - T (Met in HD)
La Juive - Halévy - MetPlayer audio
Kata Kabanova - Janacek - N
Louise - Charpentier *
The Love for Three Oranges - Prokofiev - Naxos
Martha - Flotow *
Medée - Charpentier *
Mignon - Thomas - MetPlayer audio
Moses und Aron - Schoenberg *
The Pilgrim's Progress - Williams *
Prince Igor - Borodin - N
Le Prophète - Meyerbeer *
Rinaldo - Handel - N
Rusalka - Dvorak - N
Semiramide - Rossini *
I Vespri Siciliani - Verdi - N
Die Tote Stadt - Korngold - N
The Turn of the Screw - Britten - T (live at my local opera company)
La Wally - Catalani - N
------------------------

Whew, 33! There are more that I plan to listen to/see but are not as essential as these ones, and I have various solutions for those as well (e.g., the more obscure Mozart operas that I own as part of my M22 box set but haven't seen yet, other purchased tickets like Le Comte Ory for Met in HD, stuff like Offenbach's La Périchole or Wagner's Rienzi which I own already as well but aren't priorities right now so they should remain unwatched for a while until I catch up with the above, etc).

I calculate that in six to nine months I'll have completed my personal project of covering all the bases of what could be called a standard exposure to the most important repertoire (not the "standard repertorie" because I've seen and own many operas that aren't part of the "standard repertoire" but are still important and essential), and then instead of systematically pursuing a way to fill these gaps, I'll just become more of a free-lancer, exploring novelties (e.g. L'Amour de Loin - opera after World War II is another big gap in my knowledge), obscure works, revivals, etc - and of course, I'll have more "free opera time" to repeat my favorites over and over - lately I've been too busy trying to close down on these gaps so that I've had less time to re-enjoy my favorites.

-------------------------

So what about you all? What are your big gaps, and what do you plan to do about them? What's your wish list?


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## Olias (Nov 18, 2010)

I think it would be easier to list the operas that I HAVE seen:

Marriage of Figaro
Don Giovanni
Cosi fan Tutte
Magic Flute
Fidelio
Elixir of Love
Rusalka
Barber of Seville
La Boheme
Orfeo

As you can see I've got a lot more to explore.


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

Olias said:


> I think it would be easier to list the operas that I HAVE seen:
> 
> Marriage of Figaro
> Don Giovanni
> ...


Hey, that's a very good start. We all need to start from somewhere, and the ones you've quoted are all excellent (except that I can't say about Rusalka, as you can see it is on my wish list). If you want to explore more, look up the Top 100 thread I've mentioned, we've just finished the top 50 and we're working on 51-60.


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## Gualtier Malde (Nov 14, 2010)

Olias said:


> I think it would be easier to list the operas that I HAVE seen:


Same here. I go to live opera every once in a while and have started frequenting my local movie theater for "Live from the Met" this season.

The opera bug really bit me only when I started collecting DVDs a few months ago.

But I'm actually glad about every "gap" I still have. It's so much more exciting to explore new operas than to compare the 25th performance of Aida with the other 24 you already own.


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

Gualtier Malde said:


> But I'm actually glad about every "gap" I still have. It's so much more exciting to explore new operas than to compare the 25th performance of Aida with the other 24 you already own.


I think both are exciting. A new opera is often a pleasure (sometimes it's not) but to be revisiting favorites and comparing strenghts and weaknesses of different recordings or productions is lots of fun as well.

Unfortunately I'm not a multiple recording/version type of person, due to budget considerations (not that I wouldn't like to, but it gets to be too expensive). I think the opera I own most versions of is _La Traviata_: I own five of them. I own kind of three each of some other favorites, some others I own two versions of (this is often because I got one, didn't like it a lot, then later got a better one but didn't get rid of the first one), and mostly everything else I own just one version of each - some are pretty good, others are not and I'd love to own a better version.

But before I start buying second (better) versions of some operas I own, I feel a need to complete this project, so that I can have a global understanding of the opera universe out there, thus being able to focus on my favorites. If I don't complete it, how would I know that I'm not missing out on some big time potential favorites?


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## Chi_townPhilly (Apr 21, 2007)

My most shameful gap in a word... pre-Mozart. 

Most anything before that time- I'm making do on excerpts and reputation.

Oh well, something for me to discover, down-the-road.


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

Chi_townPhilly said:


> My most shameful gap in a word... pre-Mozart.
> 
> Most anything before that time- I'm making do on excerpts and reputation.
> 
> Oh well, something for me to discover, down-the-road.


Oh but in this case you're lucky, because there's been a strong revival of baroque operas with the period instrument orchestras and specialists like Christie. These new productions of old operas can be very interesting (when done by top people - of course they can also be dreadful when they're poorly done).

I'm sure you've seen how everybody here went crazy about the Glyndebourne _Giulio Cesare_ and the Les Arts Florissants _Les Indes Galantes_. When someone does one of these old operas right, it's such a pleasure!


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## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

I'm an armchair opera fan and there are gaps in my collection which I've been meaning to fill for ages but never seem to get around to it:

Gluck - Orfee et Eurydice
Rossini - La Cenerentola
Offenbach - La Belle Helene
Smetana - Dalibor
Rimsky Korsakov - Kashchei The Immortal
Janacek - Cunning Little Vixen and Kata Kabanova
Hindemith - Neues vom Tag
Prokofiev - The Fiery Angel
Schoenberg - Moses und Aron
Weill - Street Scene
Orff - Der Mond & Die Kluge
Penderecki - The Devils of Loudun

I'm sure there would be a few more on top of those if I thought long enough about it.


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## Elgarian (Jul 30, 2008)

Gosh, I'm the Prince of Big Gaps. Some will never be filled, I think.

But the biggest gap, and the one that troubles me most, is Verdi, simply because I can't find a way in. It's very depressing - here's this chap whom everyone regards as one of the very greatest composers of opera, and I just sit there shaking my head and asking why, why can't I get this? What do I do about it? Well, I keep trying. I've yawned my way through several over the decades. I went to see Don Carlo not so long ago (listened to the CDs twice through beforehand - can you imagine the torment?) and nearly gnawed my arm off. And I've just watched the first act of the greatly acclaimed Covent Garden La Traviata with Gheorghiu, admiring_ her_, admiring the _production_, but wondering why, why, why, I'm supposed to admire the _music_. Now you may say - ah, but you _have_ seen and listened to at least some Verdi. Well, theoretically, yes. But I so totally _don't get it_, that I can't really consider myself to have engaged with the operas at all.

So Verdi is a closed book to me. I think it's because he's so clearly descended from that _bel canto_ style of Rossini and Donizetti - two more closed books. I've listened to, or seen, very few of them just because the door remains firmly locked and there are other more promising avenues to explore.

Other big gaps: things like _Elektra_, _Salome_ and so on - I think I'll probably never watch those because the plots repel me so much.


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## SalieriIsInnocent (Feb 28, 2008)

Don Carlo is an absolute must. To me, one of the greatest operas ever. Rigoletto is another.


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

elgars ghost said:


> I'm an armchair opera fan and there are gaps in my collection which I've been meaning to fill for ages but never seem to get around to it:
> 
> Gluck - Orfee et Eurydice
> Rossini - La Cenerentola
> ...


Wow. Of the ones you quoted, I own four and two are in my own gap list, but I haven't even heard of seven of the remaining eight.


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

Elgarian said:


> Gosh, I'm the Prince of Big Gaps. Some will never be filled, I think.
> 
> But the biggest gap, and the one that troubles me most, is Verdi, simply because I can't find a way in. It's very depressing - here's this chap whom everyone regards as one of the very greatest composers of opera, and I just sit there shaking my head and asking why, why can't I get this? What do I do about it? Well, I keep trying. I've yawned my way through several over the decades. I went to see Don Carlo not so long ago (listened to the CDs twice through beforehand - can you imagine the torment?) and nearly gnawed my arm off. And I've just watched the first act of the greatly acclaimed Covent Garden La Traviata with Gheorghiu, admiring_ her_, admiring the _production_, but wondering why, why, why, I'm supposed to admire the _music_. Now you may say - ah, but you _have_ seen and listened to at least some Verdi. Well, theoretically, yes. But I so totally _don't get it_, that I can't really consider myself to have engaged with the operas at all.
> 
> ...


Hard to understand indeed. How can one NOT like the first act of La Traviata? This is one of the operas I know the best (like I said, the only one I own five versions of) including some more serious studying of its musical structure to the point that I wrote a Power Point presentation about it that actually turned out pretty OK. I have used this Power Point three times to get non-Verdi lovers interested, and it was rather successful. I could send it to you if you wanted - although I don't know exactly how I'd manage to do it - short of mailing you an actual flash drive - since the file is huge, it includes all the musical examples (pretty much the entire opera since I talk about almost all numbers) and pictures, and most email software will refuse it given its size, I'd have to upload it somewhere so that you'd download it (even that is a tall order, it is really huge). Or else maybe I could strip it of the musical examples and you'd just listen to them on your own while you watched the Power Point, this would make its size more manageable and maybe consistent with emailing it to you (although there are still lots of pictures).

One thing I'll tell you: La Traviata is very cleverly crafted. Once you think about how and why Verdi composed each part the way he did, you become more admirative.

And while La Traviata does have a lot to thank Belcanto for, Verdi walked away from Belcanto pretty decisevely - just think of Otello and Falstaff. These may be more up your alley, have you given them a try?

Elektra and Salome are precursors of Modernist operas that I think you'd love, forget about repulsive plots, they are gorgeous.


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## Elgarian (Jul 30, 2008)

Almaviva said:


> How can one NOT like the first act of La Traviata?


It's not a matter of 'liking' or 'disliking'. My problem is that I can't even rise to the level of _dis_liking it. I know these perceptions can't possibly be accurate, but still, for the record, what I hear can be divided into three components:
1. Long passages of vaguely connected notes with no discernable tune.
2. Arias with tunes that seem entirely banal.
3. Occasional displays of ornamented technical virtuosity in the _bel canto_ style that I have absolutely no interest in.

Please note that I'm not having a go at Verdi - that would be absurd. I'm just describing how hopelessly badly I respond to him. I know he's a genius and I'm the loser. But I don't believe this is a left-brain issue - that is, I don't believe that any amount of argument or analysis will solve my problem. I say so with some confidence because I've been here already, most notably with Mozart - and I know that what's needed is some magic moment, some clearing of perception, in which suddenly something clicks into place. Not an argument from _outside_ - more like a switch being pushed _inside_. The only way that happens, for me, is just to keep plodding away until (hopefully) the penny drops.



> One thing I'll tell you: La Traviata is very cleverly crafted. Once you think about how and why Verdi composed each part the way he did, you become more admirative.


I believe you completely about the craftsmanship, even though I don't see it myself (and I should add that the craftsmanship isn't really an aspect of music that attracts me). But I don't think this is a knowledge or a 'craftmanship' issue. It's to do with being completely _untouched_ by the music, over decades of occasional trying. There has to be some initial spark there in the first instance, to drive the desire to dig deeper, and it isn't in me. I suppose what I'm saying is that I regret my insensitivity, but I'm not willing to expend much effort into trying to fix it. There are, after all, many more operas that are far more promising - and don't forget I'm only a part-time opera fan - I spend a lot of time listening to non-operatic music.



> And while La Traviata does have a lot to thank Belcanto for, Verdi walked away from Belcanto pretty decisevely - just think of Otello and Falstaff. These may be more up your alley, have you given them a try?


I feel I've been giving Verdi his fair whack recently, with a live _Don Carlo_ last year and now this _La Traviata_ DVD at present. So I'll give him a rest after this. (Unless of course I experience a Damascene conversion during the remainder of _Traviata_.)



> forget about repulsive plots


I can't do that.


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## World Violist (May 31, 2007)

My shameful gap is the one everyone in the forum knows about, which includes virtually every Italian opera known to man and every famous pre-20th century opera not written by Wagner. Not to say I haven't heard any of these operas, I just don't listen to them enough to "fill in the gap."

But I don't think I could call these omissions "shameful" either, since this way I've been gaining a knowledge of 20th century, off the beaten path opera instead. So it's all good.


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## karenpat (Jan 16, 2009)

I confess - I gave up reading the top100 list on this board after I realized I hadn't heard of (never even heard of the composer in a lot of the cases) the vast majority of them My opera interest started with baroque opera, mainly Händel, and then evolved into bel canto/romantic era which I'm still delving into. I don't get motivated to watch/hear new operas by telling myself I have to in order to be more of an intellectual or to be able to flaunt my left-of-center taste... I have to find some level of beauty and coherence in it to get interested (when looking for DVDs I'm very interested in the aesthetics of the production, often leaning towards the modern/minimalistic), otherwise I see no point. 
So by that I mean that I have enough holes in my knowledge of opera to cover a desert....:lol: and I may be a little scared to be labeled something negative for it.


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## danslenoir (Nov 24, 2010)

Elgarian said:


> Please note that I'm not having a go at Verdi - that would be absurd. I'm just describing how hopelessly badly I respond to him. I know he's a genius and I'm the loser. But I don't believe this is a left-brain issue - that is, I don't believe that any amount of argument or analysis will solve my problem. I say so with some confidence because I've been here already, most notably with Mozart - and I know that what's needed is some magic moment, some clearing of perception, in which suddenly something clicks into place. Not an argument from _outside_ - more like a switch being pushed _inside_.





Elgarian said:


> I suppose what I'm saying is that I regret my insensitivity, but I'm not willing to expend much effort into trying to fix it. There are, after all, many more operas that are far more promising - and don't forget I'm only a part-time opera fan - I spend a lot of time listening to non-operatic music.


As a part-time opera fan (I go through weird phases of listening almost exclusively to opera, to hardly listening to it at all), I can really empathise with these sentiments.

I first started with La Traviata funnily enough - something just clicked into place as you put it, and from then on I discovered more and more of Verdi's greats. At the time I first got into Verdi, I couldn't stand Mozart's operas. I bought the Salzburg 2006 DVD of Le Nozze di Figaro (admittedly not a great introduction to that particular opera) and turned it off after 45 mins as I just couldn't get into it. I'd listened to extracts from Don Giovanni, Cosi Fan Tutte and Die Zauberflote too and didn't really like them either. Fast forward a year or two and I ended up buying tickets to a ROH production of Figaro as I wanted to take my girlfriend, who doesn't really like sad storylines which ruled out most of that season's productions. Anyway, as the date of the opera approached I forced myself to listen to it again and something inside me had changed; I found myself completely absorbed from the opening bars of the overture to the wonderful finale. Figaro is now probably my favourite opera (though that is only from a list of about 15 or 20 operas that I have seen/listened to in full), and I can't get enough of Mozart.

I wouldn't like to speculate what causes such changes in taste for seemingly no apparent reason, but I'd love to know. I'm going through a similar thing with Wagner's operas now; I've tried and failed to enjoy his work a few times before and it just hasn't clicked. Hopefully one day it will.

Oh, and hello everyone :tiphat:


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## scytheavatar (Aug 27, 2009)

To be honest, listening to a single opera is already a huge investment of my time, let alone listening to it over and over again until I 'get' the opera. And considering that I do not just listen to operas for classical music, and neither do I just listen to just classical music and not other music genres, I have no intentions of listening to 100 operas in my lifetime. I probably will be listening to at most half of the "essential" operas in the list. Just sticking to the Wagners, Verdis, Mozarts, Puccinis and Strausses is already too much for me.


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## jhar26 (Jul 6, 2008)

Elgarian said:


> Other big gaps: things like _Elektra_, _Salome_ and so on - I think I'll probably never watch those because the plots repel me so much.


Both are fab, Alan. And they are so wonderfully decadent. :lol:


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## jhar26 (Jul 6, 2008)

scytheavatar said:


> To be honest, listening to a single opera is already a huge investment of my time, let alone listening to it over and over again until I 'get' the opera. And considering that I do not just listen to operas for classical music, and neither do I just listen to just classical music and not other music genres, I have no intentions of listening to 100 operas in my lifetime. I probably will be listening to at most half of the "essential" operas in the list. Just sticking to the Wagners, Verdis, Mozarts, Puccinis and Strausses is already too much for me.


Never say never. It's always possible that somewhere down the line you'll fall madly in love with the genre.


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## Aramis (Mar 1, 2009)

> Other big gaps: things like Elektra, Salome and so on - I think I'll probably never watch those because the plots repel me so much.


They may seem repulsive when you only read about them, but in these works they look much diffrent than "on paper". Salome is not one, huge, lenghty musical description of evil, depraved girl's sexual desires and Elektra is not pathological fetish. If you bring all these operas to musical essence you will find values and emotions that are present in most of romantic music - in Elektra, for example, it would be suffering of great burden and ecstatic relief in the end.


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## Elgarian (Jul 30, 2008)

karenpat said:


> So by that I mean that I have enough holes in my knowledge of opera to cover a desert....:lol: and I may be a little scared to be labeled something negative for it.


I don't believe Almaviva intended this discussion to take the word 'shameful' seriously - he was just using typically colourful Almaviverish language. Surely all we're doing here is swapping notes, and in my view the truly important issue concerns not the operas that we _don't _listen to, but the passion we have for the operas that we _do_.

*@Gaston & Aramis*

I hear you about_ Elektra_ and _Salome_, but remember you're dealing with someone seriously soppy, who has recently found operatic Nirvana in the first two acts of _La Rondine_!


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## Elgarian (Jul 30, 2008)

danslenoir said:


> I'd listened to extracts from Don Giovanni, Cosi Fan Tutte and Die Zauberflote too and didn't really like them either. Fast forward a year or two and I ended up buying tickets to a ROH production of Figaro ... as the date of the opera approached I forced myself to listen to it again and something inside me had changed; I found myself completely absorbed from the opening bars of the overture to the wonderful finale. Figaro is now probably my favourite opera (though that is only from a list of about 15 or 20 operas that I have seen/listened to in full), and I can't get enough of Mozart.


Oh yes, yes, this sort of thing is so familiar! It's happened to me over and over again - not just with opera, but with all kinds of music and all kinds of visual art!


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## sospiro (Apr 3, 2010)

Mine is Wagner. I'm really trying but I just don't 'get' him yet.

As Gaston said 'never say never' but I find listening to Wagner a terrible waste of time when I could be enjoying my Verdi.

I think I might give up for a couple of months then try again.


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## jhar26 (Jul 6, 2008)

sospiro said:


> Mine is Wagner. I'm really trying but I just don't 'get' him yet.
> 
> As Gaston said 'never say never' but I find listening to Wagner a terrible waste of time when I could be enjoying my Verdi.
> 
> I think I might give up for a couple of months then try again.


Which Wagner operas have you tried, Annie? I think that maybe Der Fliegende Hollander and Tannhauser are the easiest to start out with.


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## sospiro (Apr 3, 2010)

jhar26 said:


> Which Wagner operas have you tried, Annie? I think that maybe Der Fliegende Hollander and Tannhauser are the easiest to start out with.












I've not tried a full opera, just songs/arias in collections. I'll take note of your suggestions though - that might be better than just listening at random.


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## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

Hi, Sospiro. I would also suggest Der Fliegende Hollander - it's comparatively short but sets the tone for a lot of his subsequent work. If you do happen to find this unsatisfactory then sadly I can't see you really enjoying the longer works which followed.


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

World Violist said:


> My shameful gap is the one everyone in the forum knows about, which includes virtually every Italian opera known to man and every famous pre-20th century opera not written by Wagner. Not to say I haven't heard any of these operas, I just don't listen to them enough to "fill in the gap."
> 
> But I don't think I could call these omissions "shameful" either, since this way I've been gaining a knowledge of 20th century, off the beaten path opera instead. So it's all good.


Well in your case I wouldn't feel ashamed either, since you're my official 20th Century Opera Guru. Thanks to you I've been exploring some stuff and it's all good indeed.


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

karenpat said:


> I confess - I gave up reading the top100 list on this board after I realized I hadn't heard of (never even heard of the composer in a lot of the cases) the vast majority of them My opera interest started with baroque opera, mainly Händel, and then evolved into bel canto/romantic era which I'm still delving into. I don't get motivated to watch/hear new operas by telling myself I have to in order to be more of an intellectual or to be able to flaunt my left-of-center taste... I have to find some level of beauty and coherence in it to get interested (when looking for DVDs I'm very interested in the aesthetics of the production, often leaning towards the modern/minimalistic), otherwise I see no point.
> So by that I mean that I have enough holes in my knowledge of opera to cover a desert....:lol: and I may be a little scared to be labeled something negative for it.


Hey, you've been going on a historical path... from baroque to belcanto/romantic... I think you'll keep going and will enjoy other periods later. And I didn't mean any of this in a negative way, I was just being self-deprecating. I think you're about half my age or less than half, so, the fact that you've already been exploring baroque, belcanto and romantic operas places you way ahead of my game, so, again, no, nothing negative to say about it.:tiphat:


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

danslenoir said:


> As a part-time opera fan (I go through weird phases of listening almost exclusively to opera, to hardly listening to it at all), I can really empathise with these sentiments.
> 
> I first started with La Traviata funnily enough - something just clicked into place as you put it, and from then on I discovered more and more of Verdi's greats. At the time I first got into Verdi, I couldn't stand Mozart's operas. I bought the Salzburg 2006 DVD of Le Nozze di Figaro (admittedly not a great introduction to that particular opera) and turned it off after 45 mins as I just couldn't get into it. I'd listened to extracts from Don Giovanni, Cosi Fan Tutte and Die Zauberflote too and didn't really like them either. Fast forward a year or two and I ended up buying tickets to a ROH production of Figaro as I wanted to take my girlfriend, who doesn't really like sad storylines which ruled out most of that season's productions. Anyway, as the date of the opera approached I forced myself to listen to it again and something inside me had changed; I found myself completely absorbed from the opening bars of the overture to the wonderful finale. Figaro is now probably my favourite opera (though that is only from a list of about 15 or 20 operas that I have seen/listened to in full), and I can't get enough of Mozart.
> 
> ...


Hello to you too, sir, and welcome to the board!
Such an interesting post right as you start in this forum bodes well for your contributions here!:tiphat: I'm glad that you joined, and please, keep coming and contributing!

What does cause such changes? It's a mystery. The best I can say is that it's an acquired taste that suddenly clicks into place like you said, just like almost all children hate coffee and almost all adults love coffee - go figure what is behind this mystery of our taste buds!

My history with opera may have been even more radical. The first time a friend of mine who was a huge opera buff with a wall full of opera CDs and vinyls tried to get me initiated in my early twenties, I tried to politely indicate that while this was indeed very interesting and I could understand his passion for it, my musical preferences resided elsewhere (not to hurt his feelings) while deep inside what I was really thinking was - "What, is this guy nuts? Who in his right mind would like to listen to these people screaming at each other with these screeching voices?"

Fast forward to a couple of decades later, and somehow out of nowhere I became as big and as passionate an opera fan as my friend was.

How did it all started for me? Hard to know... my first one was Carmen... then one here, another one there... and suddenly I couldn't get enough of it.


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

scytheavatar said:


> To be honest, listening to a single opera is already a huge investment of my time, let alone listening to it over and over again until I 'get' the opera. And considering that I do not just listen to operas for classical music, and neither do I just listen to just classical music and not other music genres, I have no intentions of listening to 100 operas in my lifetime. I probably will be listening to at most half of the "essential" operas in the list. Just sticking to the Wagners, Verdis, Mozarts, Puccinis and Strausses is already too much for me.


Well, fair enough, these are good.


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

Elgarian said:


> I don't believe Almaviva intended this discussion to take the word 'shameful' seriously - he was just using typically colourful Almaviverish language. Surely all we're doing here is swapping notes, and in my view the truly important issue concerns not the operas that we _don't _listen to, but the passion we have for the operas that we _do_.
> 
> *@Gaston & Aramis*
> 
> I hear you about_ Elektra_ and _Salome_, but remember you're dealing with someone seriously soppy, who has recently found operatic Nirvana in the first two acts of _La Rondine_!


You're right, Alan, my sometimes controversial wording (which gets me in trouble from time to time, see Aramis' reaction to my placing Der Freishchutz on a list of "ridiculous plots") are just conversation starters. Like you said, I just love talking about opera and whatever brings people in and motivates them to contribute to the threads is good enough for me. I don't think there is any real shame involved in this. After all it's all about our love for this art form.

Colorful Almaviverish language, huh? Is this better or worse than Petibonesque things?

Oh no, I insist. You *must* listen to Elektra and Salome. They are really, really tops. If you don't "click" with Verdi and Belcanto, I believe you may really love these two. They couldn't be farther away from Verdi and Belcanto.


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## Gualtier Malde (Nov 14, 2010)

Elgarian said:


> It's not a matter of 'liking' or 'disliking'. My problem is that I can't even rise to the level of _dis_liking it. I know these perceptions can't possibly be accurate, but still, for the record, what I hear can be divided into three components:
> 1. Long passages of vaguely connected notes with no discernable tune.
> 2. Arias with tunes that seem entirely banal.
> 3. Occasional displays of ornamented technical virtuosity in the _bel canto_ style that I have absolutely no interest in.


Why not just call it a matter of taste and leave it at that for the time being (just my 5 cents)? My impression is that most of us here listen to opera as a hobby and for enjoyment, so there's little point in suffering through self-inflicted assignments.

Not everything that is declared a great piece of art by a majority of (in part self-proclaimed) experts has to touch everyone. In my case, there's for example nothing that puts me to sleep as efficiently as a nice long Beethoven symphony. On the other hand, I'm very touched by other pieces which by common consent are "trite."

(For the record: I do like Verdi.)


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

Gualtier Malde said:


> My impression is that most of us here listen to opera as a hobby and for enjoyment, so there's little point in suffering through self-inflicted assignments.


Hey! Don't let him off the hook so easily! We *want* him to suffer through it!!!:devil:


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## Elgarian (Jul 30, 2008)

Almaviva said:


> Colorful Almaviverish language, huh? Is this better or worse than Petibonesque things?


Hard to say. I hesitated over the word, undecided between Almaviverish, Almavivistic, and Almavivesque, and decided I liked the shivery quivery sound of Almaviverish.



> Oh no, I insist. You *must* listen to Elektra and Salome. They are really, really tops.


Yes I _know_ they are, and in their case it's not the same thing at all. I'm put off by the grisly subject matter, and choose - very deliberately - not to get involved.


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## Elgarian (Jul 30, 2008)

Gualtier Malde said:


> Why not just call it a matter of taste and leave it at that for the time being (just my 5 cents)? My impression is that most of us here listen to opera as a hobby and for enjoyment, so there's little point in suffering through self-inflicted assignments.


It's a matter of growth. Obviously there's no value in enduring non-stop self-inflicted misery, but there's certainly value in repeatedly trying, at sensible intervals, to enjoy music that's regarded as first rate, but which I haven't managed to engage with properly. There was a time when I felt the same puzzlement about Mozart, and almost all baroque music, but my occasional bouts of persistence paid off eventually and my life is so much richer for having done it.


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## jhar26 (Jul 6, 2008)

Elgarian said:


> So Verdi is a closed book to me. I think it's because he's so clearly descended from that _bel canto_ style of Rossini and Donizetti - two more closed books.


And yet you love the music of that other bel canto giant Bellini.


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## Gualtier Malde (Nov 14, 2010)

Almaviva said:


> Hey! Don't let him off the hook so easily! We *want* him to suffer through it!!!:devil:





Elgarian said:


> It's a matter of growth.


So since everyone seems to agree on this, the defendant is herewith sentenced to listening to all available versions of Don Carlo(s). Failure to comply will lead to a Salome/Elektra treatment (think Clockwork Orange).


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## Elgarian (Jul 30, 2008)

jhar26 said:


> And yet you love the music of that other bel canto giant Bellini.


You're right, and there's another of the world's minor (_very_ minor) mysteries. I perceive - rightly or wrongly - an enormous gulf between Bellini and those Donizetti and Rossini chaps, and can't really understand why they're bracketed together (except as a matter of historical and geographical accident). Even so, in the spirit of exploration, I have put a Donizetti DVD on the list of Christmas 'wants' that my daughters asked for. So you see, the road winds ever on and on.

But as you know, Gaston, I may say these things, but I never claim to make any actual sense.


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## Elgarian (Jul 30, 2008)

Gualtier Malde said:


> So since everyone seems to agree on this, the defendant is herewith sentenced to listening to all available versions of Don Carlo(s). Failure to comply will lead to a Salome/Elektra treatment (think Clockwork Orange).


I confess all my crimes immediately.


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

sospiro said:


> I've not tried a full opera, just songs/arias in collections. I'll take note of your suggestions though - that might be better than just listening at random.


Annie, while I'm a big Wagner fan (the musician, not the person) and I have seen all of them except The Flying Dutchman and Rienzi and the first two obscure failed efforts (I don't even remember the name of those), I can't stand highlights or fragments of his operas. I think Wagner only makes sense when you watch/listen to the whole thing and you get in the mood. This happens to me to the point that when I'm listening to my box set of 6 CDs with the best 100 opera tracks in my car, I hit skip every time I get to a Wagner track. But then I'll spend 3 to 5 fascinated hours listening to one of his full operas.

Tannhauser is a good place to start (I can't say anything about The Flying Dutchman yet) but maybe an even better place to start, in my opinion, is Meistersinger.


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

Elgarian said:


> It's a matter of growth. Obviously there's no value in enduring non-stop self-inflicted misery, but there's certainly value in repeatedly trying, at sensible intervals, to enjoy music that's regarded as first rate, but which I haven't managed to engage with properly. There was a time when I felt the same puzzlement about Mozart, and almost all baroque music, but my occasional bouts of persistence paid off eventually and my life is so much richer for having done it.


I had the same problem with baroque. I *thought* that I couldn't stand the sound of a harpsichord (not a great fan of Bach's). Then suddenly it grew on me and now, like you, I'm thankful for having tried, because many baroque operas are among my favorites.


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

Elgarian said:


> You're right, and there's another of the world's minor (_very_ minor) mysteries. I perceive - rightly or wrongly - an enormous gulf between Bellini and those Donizetti and Rossini chaps, and can't really understand why they're bracketed together (except as a matter of historical and geographical accident). Even so, in the spirit of exploration, I have put a Donizetti DVD on the list of Christmas 'wants' that my daughters asked for. So you see, the road winds ever on and on.
> 
> But as you know, Gaston, I may say these things, but I never claim to make any actual sense.


Alan, try Roberto Devereux. It is arguably the most melodious of Donizetti's operas, or at least, it is for me. It's relatively more obscure than his more famous works, and it beats me why, because it is great.


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## Elgarian (Jul 30, 2008)

Almaviva said:


> Alan, try Roberto Devereux.


Alas, too late for my Christmas list. The one I asked for was _La Fille du Regiment_ - the one with Natalie Dessay. Her presence may give me a foothold.


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

Elgarian said:


> Alas, too late for my Christmas list. The one I asked for was _La Fille du Regiment_ - the one with Natalie Dessay. Her presence may give me a foothold.


Oh well, I like it, but not that much. I don't think it reflects Donizetti's full range. I think you won't get a good notion of what Donizetti can do until you explore his more serious works - although I'm always in awe of him for his ability to set to music excellent comedies as well as excellent dramas, I think he excelled even more in his serious operas.


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## Elgarian (Jul 30, 2008)

Well, the hopeful way I see it is that even if I find the opera dull, Natalie won't be.


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## Aramis (Mar 1, 2009)

> failed efforts


Die Feen is not "failed effort".


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

Aramis said:


> Die Feen is not "failed effort".


OK. What about "less than outstanding effort?" I wouldn't know anyway, I was talking from reputation, I haven't seen it.

But if we take the master's word for it, I remind you that Wagner himself didn't consider what he called "immature works" as part of his his oeuvre, and he banned them from being performed at Bayreuth. So from his own standpoint they were failed works; I guess I can't be blamed for saying the same.

In spite of what he said, there isn't a single opera composed by Wagner that I haven't loved among the ones I've seen, so, chances are that you're right about _Die Feen_ (and this may be also true of the other three that I don't know):
_Rienzi_ - it's sitting right in front of me right now on my unwatched pile
_Die Feen_ - no plans to watch it anytime soon
_Das Liebesverbot_ - no plans to watch it anytime soon
_Der Fliegende Holländer_ - it's second in my Netflix queue (it was first until yesterday but I bumped_ L'Amour de Loin_ to the top) so I'll get to it within a week


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## myaskovsky2002 (Oct 3, 2010)

*I cannot understand this...Ich nich spereche Deutsche...*

"Aufersteh'n, ja aufersteh'n
wirst du, mein Herz, in einem Nu!
Was du geschlagen
zu Gott wird es dich tragen!"
-Gustav Mahler

and you repeat it again and again...

Me pregunto si lo haces a propósito, yo hablo francés, inglés, alemán y bastante ruso, pero no hablo alemán. Mayerbeer, lo odio y no me importa no verlo.

Martin Pitchon


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

myaskovsky2002 said:


> "Aufersteh'n, ja aufersteh'n
> wirst du, mein Herz, in einem Nu!
> Was du geschlagen
> zu Gott wird es dich tragen!"
> ...


Meyerbeer is truly horrible. I hate his overblown, over-the-top grand operas. I was about to fall asleep during _Les Huguenots._


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

Almaviva said:


> Meyerbeer is truly horrible. I hate his overblown, over-the-top grand operas. I was about to fall asleep during _Les Huguenots._


Have you seen l'Africaine with Domingo and Verrett? I enjoyed it.


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## Herkku (Apr 18, 2010)

And I just ordered his Les Huguenots, Le Prophète, Margherita d'Anjou, Il Crociato In Egitto, L'Etoile du nord, Robert Le Diable, Semiramide (not Rossini's!), L'Africana and Dinorah on CD and L'Africaine on DVD! I guess that should be enough for a proper hibernation...


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

Herkku said:


> And I just ordered his Les Huguenots, Le Prophète, Margherita d'Anjou, Il Crociato In Egitto, L'Etoile du nord, Robert Le Diable, Semiramide (not Rossini's!), L'Africana and Dinorah on CD and L'Africaine on DVD! I guess that should be enough for a proper hibernation...


L'Africaine and Le Prophète are sitting on my unlistened to pile. I can't gather the courage to attack them.


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

mamascarlatti said:


> Have you seen l'Africaine with Domingo and Verrett? I enjoyed it.


You're back???
Welcome back!!!
No, I have a CD version but unlistened to.


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

Almaviva said:


> You're back???
> Welcom back!!!
> No, I have a CD version but unlistened to.


It's grand spectacle well done. I think this one should be watched. Verrett is very beautiful in this, if it's any incentive.


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## Herkku (Apr 18, 2010)

I like her Lady Macbeth!


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## superhorn (Mar 23, 2010)

Compared to the other posters here,there aren't a lot of gaps in mine,since I've heard or seen who knows how many operas on LP,cassette, CD,DVD and live since I was just a kid,when I became an opera and classical music nut.
But there are still so many on CD and DVD I haven't heard. There's an absolutely mind-boggling 
number of different operas in who knows how many different performances available.
I know all the standard operas backward and forward, and many ,many lesser known ones.
But there are still a fair number by Handel,Rameau, Gluck, Lully, Rossini,Donizetti, etc I haven't heard yet. Even though I've been a Wagner nut since I was a kid, I still haven't had a chance to hear recordings of his first two juvenile efforts Die Feen and Das Liebesverbot,but hope to soon. I'm familiar with Rienze from the EMI LP.I'd like to see the new DVD of it from Berlin,but unfortunately,it's cut to the bone.
If you check the opera section at arkivmusic.com, you will see an incredible number of obscure operas by such composers as Spontini,Spohr, Marschner, Krenek,Szymanowski, Giordano,Cilea, 
Auber, Zemlinsky,Schreker, Delius, Fibich, Moniuszko, Respighi,Zandonai, Korngold, 
Schulhoff, Braunfels, and others listed,all available at the click of a mouse.
I've probably heard recordings of about 500 different operas ranging from Monteverdi,Rameau,Handel,Gluck and Mozart to Adams,Glass, Henze, Boplcom, Ruders, Heggie etc ,and that doesn't count the standard operas I've heard multiple versions of,mostly by borrowing from different libraries.
I've only seen about 15-20 DVD operas at home so far, but I'm catching up,and I've been taking advantage of the very convenient library interloan system in Westchester county just north of New York where I live to hear and see different interesting things.


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

superhorn said:


> Even though I've been a Wagner nut since I was a kid, I still haven't had a chance to hear recordings of his first two juvenile efforts Die Feen and Das Liebesverbot,but hope to soon. I'm familiar with Rienze from the EMI LP.I'd like to see the new DVD of it from Berlin,but unfortunately,it's cut to the bone.


I got it but it's on my unwatched pile. However Opera News Magazine says the cuts have improved the opera, instead of diminishing it. I'm curious.



> If you check the opera section at arkivmusic.com, you will see an incredible number of obscure operas by such composers as Spontini,Spohr, Marschner, Krenek,Szymanowski, Giordano,Cilea,
> Auber, Zemlinsky,Schreker, Delius, Fibich, Moniuszko, Respighi,Zandonai, Korngold,
> Schulhoff, Braunfels, and others listed,all available at the click of a mouse.


I feel that I still need to finish up, to get over the gaps I've quoted (I've been slowly taking care of them) before I explore the more obscure works. But I'll get to them some day.



> I've been taking advantage of the very convenient library interloan system in Westchester county just north of New York where I live to hear and see different interesting things.


Lucky you. My local library has a sizable number of opera CDs, but all standard repertory, no obscure operas.


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

I took care of six of them in the last few days:

Bluebeard's Castle - loved it.
The Flying Dutchman - liked it. Of the ten Wagner operas I've seen, my least favorite, but still good.
La Gioconda - meh
Louise - fairly good. Nothing special
The Love for Three Oranges - liked it.
Moses und Aron - absolutely loved it.

So, 27 to go, before I can start exploring more obscure works.


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

Berg is my biggest gap, and a lot of Strauss (only heard Electra once, and also Capriccio, Arabella, Frau ohne Schatten). Also just starting to explore Janacek.


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## Sieglinde (Oct 25, 2009)

Falstaff
Suor Angelica
Gianni Schicchi
Bluebeard's Castle
Idomeneo
Lakmé
Jenufa (do want so badly!)
Wozzeck 
Elektra
Die Rosenkavalier (actually, all Strauss that isn't Salome)
A Midsummer Night's Dream


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## Aksel (Dec 3, 2010)

Oh, where do I begin?

Early and middle Verdi.
Russian opera
Strauss
Berg
Janacek
Rossini (the ones that aren't Barbiere and Cerentola), Bellini and Donizetti
The list does go on. But it is what I could manage to think of.

Also, Sieglinde: Watch Falstaff now. It's utter amazingness.


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## jhar26 (Jul 6, 2008)

Aksel said:


> Oh, where do I begin?
> 
> Early and middle Verdi.
> Russian opera
> ...


Don't forget that guy from Rule Brittania. :lol:


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## Aksel (Dec 3, 2010)

jhar26 said:


> Don't forget that guy from Rule Brittania. :lol:


Yes. And him. :lol:


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

By now I'm fairly content and should say I have no more major gaps. I took care of all that I had mentioned earlier in this thread. These days I have been exploring the fringe repertory.


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## MAuer (Feb 6, 2011)

I have several major gaps (and probably a few minor ones):
- Contemporary operas
- Operas by the Slavic composers
- 20th century opera (with the exception of several of Strauss's works)
- French opera (my knowledge is currently limited to those by Gounod and Massenet, plus Bizet's "_Carmen_" and Offenbach's "_Le Contes d'Hoffmann_")
- Baroque operas
- Many of Rossini's operas

Fortunately, I'm now back in a city where the local opera company is willing to include at least one work in each season that is not part of the "greatest hits" gang. This year, it will be Adams' "_A_ _Flowering Tree_," which I'm looking forward to hearing.


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## Nix (Feb 20, 2010)

Only just started listening to/watching opera. So far I've seen:

Fidelio
The Elixir of Love
Jenufa
Carmen
Rigoletto
Hansel and Gretel 
Dr. Atomic
Wozzeck 

and recently I've been listening to Tristan and Isolde. My plan is to start with Wagner and then move on to Mozart!


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

Nix said:


> Only just started listening to/watching opera. So far I've seen:
> 
> Fidelio
> The Elixir of Love
> ...


Nice! Enjoy! I'm glad for you that you're doing it.


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## science (Oct 14, 2010)

I've heard a lot more operas than I've seen, and I've seen most of the dozen or so most famous ones. 

But not La Boheme. That's my biggest gap, for sure. Haven't seen or heard anything by Gounod, Adams, Donizetti, Britten. My Wagner, Strauss and Puccini have some gaps (but there are so many of them - and for me, Wagner is work rather than pleasure). Of Janacek's operas, only From the House of the Dead. 

I'm actually pretty good in the Baroque - heard or seen operas by Monteverdi, Gluck (who I love), Purcell, Rameau. Not Handel though, not even Julius Caesar.


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

science said:


> I've heard a lot more operas than I've seen, and I've seen most of the dozen or so most famous ones.
> 
> But not La Boheme. That's my biggest gap, for sure. Haven't seen or heard anything by Gounod, Adams, Donizetti, Britten. My Wagner, Strauss and Puccini have some gaps (but there are so many of them - and for me, Wagner is work rather than pleasure). Of Janacek's operas, only From the House of the Dead.
> 
> I'm actually pretty good in the Baroque - heard or seen operas by Monteverdi, Gluck (who I love), Purcell, Rameau. Not Handel though, not even Julius Caesar.


Handel is my favorite Baroque composer, you need to get into it. I consider Handel one of the top 5 opera composers of all times.


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## prettyhippo (Apr 19, 2011)

I'm ashamed to admit my gap... But I'd like to excuse myself with the fact that I am very new in the world of opera. So here are the few that I have seen:

La Traviata
Tosca
Turandot
Pagliacci
Cavalleria Rusticana
Il Tabarro
Otello


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## sospiro (Apr 3, 2010)

prettyhippo said:


> I'm ashamed to admit my gap... But I'd like to excuse myself with the fact that I am very new in the world of opera. So here are the few that I have seen:
> 
> La Traviata
> Tosca
> ...


:wave:

Hello prettyhippo & welcome to the forum.

*Few of us are born knowing opera so there's nothing 'shameful' about it. There's a thread about some of our opera journeys which you might find interesting.

I hope you find some useful information on here & have fun at the same time.

*An exception would be Iona Keenlyside (Simon's daughter) because when Mrs. K was pregnant she used to go to Simon's rehearsals so that baby would get to know Dad's voice.


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## prettyhippo (Apr 19, 2011)

Thank you Sospiro! I am looking forward to exploring site and learing more!


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