# Question on the Mass genre



## Classical Gas

Forgive my ignorance on the subject -- I'm still learning about classical music. Taking a look at a couple of Mass librettos (Mozart, Haydn) I noticed the text seemed to be similar (if not the same). Am I correct that the text for Masses is fixed? I.e., that even great composers of yore like Mozart, Haydn, Bach, etc. never wrote their own libretti (nor did other contemporaries) but they simply used the text of the Church?

If so, what about Protestant composers? They surely wouldn't use Catholic text, would they?

I realize I could just Google these questions -- but what's the fun in that? (And besides, I think it would be more informative and interesting to have some of the erudite contributors on this forum weigh in.)


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## KenOC

The Ordinarium or "full mass" sets the five parts of the Catholic Mass, which usually have the same Latin texts.* Full masses are sometimes written by Protestant composers, Bach being an example with his Mass in B minor.

There are also other forms of the mass. See:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_(music)

*Somebody here said that Schubert sometimes deleted parts of the text he disagreed with.


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## Pugg

Classical Gas said:


> Forgive my ignorance on the subject -- I'm still learning about classical music. Taking a look at a couple of Mass librettos (Mozart, Haydn) I noticed the text seemed to be similar (if not the same). Am I correct that the text for Masses is fixed? I.e., that even great composers of yore like Mozart, Haydn, Bach, etc. never wrote their own libretti (nor did other contemporaries) but they simply used the text of the Church?
> 
> If so, what about Protestant composers? They surely wouldn't use Catholic text, would they?
> 
> I realize I could just Google these questions -- but what's the fun in that? (And besides, I think it would be more informative and interesting to have some of the erudite contributors on this forum weigh in.)


Flattery will get you anything.


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## Classical Gas

Thanks Pugg, I'll keep that in mind! And thanks KenOC, I think that answers my questions.


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## Manxfeeder

KenOC said:


> Full masses are sometimes written by Protestant composers, Bach being an example with his Mass in B minor.
> 
> *Somebody here said that Schubert sometimes deleted parts of the text he disagreed with.


Noncatholic composers also tend to write very busy music for the Credo in order to obscure phrases like "I believe in the holy Catholic church."


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## Nevilevelis

Manxfeeder said:


> Noncatholic composers also tend to write very busy music for the Credo in order to obscure phrases like "I believe in the holy Catholic church."


They shouldn't, and probably don't. _Catholicam_ means universal (of one general property) in the orginal context, but has become associated with the Catholic Church.


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## Martin D

Classical Gas said:


> Forgive my ignorance on the subject -- I'm still learning about classical music. Taking a look at a couple of Mass librettos (Mozart, Haydn) I noticed the text seemed to be similar (if not the same). Am I correct that the text for Masses is fixed? I.e., that even great composers of yore like Mozart, Haydn, Bach, etc. never wrote their own libretti (nor did other contemporaries) but they simply used the text of the Church?
> 
> If so, what about Protestant composers? They surely wouldn't use Catholic text, would they?
> 
> I realize I could just Google these questions -- but what's the fun in that? (And besides, I think it would be more informative and interesting to have some of the erudite contributors on this forum weigh in.)


I would just like add a few points to what others have said above.

You refer to "libretto". Obviously I know what you mean here but beware it's not a term that is normally used in the context of words spoken or sung in religious music. "Text" is the usual word.

You will find that all masses written by the likes of Haydn, Mozart, Beethoven, Schubert were for the R.C Church. They have a common 5 section layout: Kyrie, Gloria, Credo, Sanctus, Agnus Dei, in that order. There might some tweaking for special masses like for a Requiem, where an extra bit might be added at the beginning and/or end. They all have text in Latin, and it's strictly fixed according to the RC Liturgy.

J S Bach (a Lutheran by faith) wrote several RC masses, following the above format. His most famous mass of all is the "Mass in B Minor". This is an RC mass, but it has tended not to be used much, if at all, in the RC Church but rather as a concert piece. He also wrote several Lutheran masses, the layout of which is different from an RC mass. If you google "Amazon mp3 Bach Lutheran masses" you'll find some actual examples of the layout. They're nothing like as widely popular as RC masses.

As noted previously, Schubert was known to exclude a small section of the Credo in some of his masses because he had problems with that aspect of the faith, but you'd hardly notice it on a normal listen, and the change is so minor it's hardly worth worrying about.

Many of the RC masses by the "great and the good" composers of old have largely fallen into abeyance these days, in actual liturgical use. Some of them are still performed but mainly used as concert pieces.

Probably the most commonly heard ones of these in the modern era are Mozart's Requiem and Beethoven's Missa Solemnis, two of the all-time classics along with Bach's Mass in B Minor and Schubert's Mass 6. They all provide a fantastic listen and I would strongly urge you to acquire these and know that you are listening to the best in this genre.

You'll find out further details in the Wiki articles.


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## hpowders

Masses put me to sleep.

Mass hypnosis?


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## lluissineu

hpowders said:


> Masses put me to sleep.
> 
> Mass hypnosis?


Good night!

I really love masses, Mozart (spatzemesse, great mass, coronatin...), Haydn, Schubert (D950 Is one of my favourites), gounod...

Kilar has a wonderful work: Missa pro pace






Wonderful posts answering The question.


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## CMonteverdi

In fact, nowadays it's not very common to hear the Ordo Missae sung, and even more rare to hear Mozart or Beethoven masses during a liturgy.
Nevertheless, some parts of the Mass are more often sung in gregorian plainchant or poliphony (e.g.: Kyrie, Gloria, Agnus Dei). More common is to use hymns or Short Motets, as well as Organ music, during Communion distribution and/or at the beginning or end of the Mass. 

LK


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## Musica Enchiriadis

CMonteverdi said:


> some parts of the Mass are more often sung in gregorian plainchant or poliphony (e.g.: Kyrie, Gloria, Agnus Dei). More common is to use hymns or Short Motets, as well as Organ music, during Communion distribution and/or at the beginning or end of the Mass.
> 
> LK


Yes ! *Ordinary chants* are sung every day of the liturgical year (_Kyrie, Gloria, Credo, Sanctus, Agnus Dei_). The text don't change, it's always the same.

*Proper chants *(_Introit, Gradual, Offertory, Communion_) have a different text almost each day, depending on the liturgical occasion.
So, for a composer, it's much more logical to write a polyphonic mass for the sections that can be used all the year.

Nevertheless, they are composers in the 16th cenruty who write full cycles for the Proper of the Mass (Heinrich Isaac, ...), but it's a long task...


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## Taggart

I think what the poster meant was that it's not common to hear the mass sung in general. Never mind anything special. The usual pattern is for a low mass with minimal singing except for the ordinary chants - usually Missa de Angelis if in Latin. Sometimes the preface dialogue up to the Sanctus and the end of the Eucharistic prayer up to the Great Amen will be sung in English to the missal tone.

There are very few churches like St Wilfrid's in York or Farm Street which offer the old Latin Mass sung to a variety of music.


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## Ingélou

Taggart said:


> I think what the poster meant was that it's not common to hear the mass sung in general. Never mind anything special. The usual pattern is for a low mass with minimal singing except for the ordinary chants - usually Missa de Angelis if in Latin. Sometimes the preface dialogue up to the Sanctus and the end of the Eucharistic prayer up to the Great Amen will be sung in English to the missal tone.
> 
> There are very few churches like St Wilfrid's in York or Farm Street which offer the old Latin Mass sung to a variety of music.


Oh that I lived in York, my home city. But alas, we can't afford it...!


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## Musica Enchiriadis

Great ! 
Here the music for Ash Wednesday is a polyphonic setting of Heinrich Isaac from the gregorian text for this particular day, _Qui meditabitur in lege Domini._ 
Isaac wrote this setting for the _Dies Cinerum_, and this is the only day of the liturgical year this song can be sung at church !
Byrd's Mass can be sung on all occasions.


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## CMonteverdi

During Holy week, I've my own small "liturgy" at home and i listen to Victoria's Responsories, Allegri Miserere and Pergolesi Stabat Mater...

Any suggestions to what can be added to these masterpieces?

LK


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## Musica Enchiriadis

Yes, Carlo Gesualdo, Tenebrae Responsories.
A masterwork, Renaissance style with some madrigalism !


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## Pugg

CMonteverdi said:


> During Holy week, I've my own small "liturgy" at home and i listen to Victoria's Responsories, Allegri Miserere and Pergolesi Stabat Mater...
> 
> Any suggestions to what can be added to these masterpieces?
> 
> LK


Bach: St Matthew Passion to start with.


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## CMonteverdi

I'll give Gesualdo da Venosa a try, thanks!

I've Bach Passions but never digged into them (mea culpa!)... thanks Pugg.


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## Musica Enchiriadis

CMonteverdi said:


> I'll give Gesualdo da Venosa a try, thanks!


And of course, a masterworks of the Renaissance : *Thomas Tallis, Lamentations of Jeremiah I & II.*






And if you're looking for something more gothic and dark : *Pierre de La Rue, Missa pro defunctis.*


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## JAS

Classical Gas said:


> If so, what about Protestant composers? They surely wouldn't use Catholic text, would they?


In Protestant churches, the term "Mass" is not generally used, and the structure of services is not usually as ritualized. (Anglican and High Episcopal services tend to be much more like Catholic services.) Many Protestant denominations have a Book of Order (although the terms for this kind of manual vary), usually providing a standard service for special occasions (including weddings, baptisms, and funerals) and standard readings.


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## SixFootScowl

Nevilevelis said:


> They shouldn't, and probably don't. _Catholicam_ means universal (of one general property) in the orginal context, but has become associated with the Catholic Church.


Lutherans have used (have used because most have modernized the language by now) the term catholic but not Catholic in the creed. One means universal, but when capitalized tends to mean Roman Catholic.


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## SixFootScowl

Martin D said:


> You will find that all masses written by the likes of Haydn, Mozart, Beethoven, Schubert were for the R.C Church.


Maybe so, but I have read through the text (in English) of Beethoven's Missa Solemnis and see nothing a Lutheran could object to. In fact, it looks like the same text as in the liturgy of the 1941 Lutheran Hymnal.

Now Mozart I believe is a different story and his masses do include specifically Catholic elements.


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## KenOC

Florestan said:


> Maybe so, but I have read through the text (in English) of Beethoven's Missa Solemnis and see nothing a Lutheran could object to.


From the Credo: "I believe in One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church."

Credo in unam sanctam Catholicam et Apostolicam Ecclesiam. (from Beethoven's Missa Solemnis)


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## Mandryka

KenOC said:


> From the Credo: "I believe in One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church."
> 
> Credo in unam sanctam Catholicam et Apostolicam Ecclesiam. (from Beethoven's Missa Solemnis)


LOL. The Nicene creed forms part of the Lutheran mass I think, "catholica" doesn't refer to The Church of Rome, it means something like "universal."


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## KenOC

Mandryka said:


> LOL. The Nicene creed forms part of the Lutheran mass I think, "catholica" doesn't refer to The Church of Rome, it means something like "universal."


Capitalized ("Catholica") it means something different, as pointed out earlier. From Wiki:

Roman Catholics believe the description "one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church" to be applicable only to the Catholic Church. They hold that "Christ established here on earth only one Church" and they believe in "the full identity of the Church of Christ with the Catholic Church". While "there are numerous elements of sanctification and of truth which are found outside her structure", these, "as gifts properly belonging to the Church of Christ, impel towards Catholic Unity". The eastern Churches not in full communion with the Catholic Church thereby "lack something in their condition as particular Churches". The communities born out of the 16th-century Protestant Reformation "do not enjoy apostolic succession in the sacrament of Orders, and are, therefore, deprived of a constituent element of the Church."


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## Mandryka

KenOC said:


> Capitalized ("Catholica") it means something different, as pointed out earlier. From Wiki:
> 
> Roman Catholics believe the description "one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church" to be applicable only to the Catholic Church. They hold that "Christ established here on earth only one Church" and they believe in "the full identity of the Church of Christ with the Catholic Church". While "there are numerous elements of sanctification and of truth which are found outside her structure", these, "as gifts properly belonging to the Church of Christ, impel towards Catholic Unity". The eastern Churches not in full communion with the Catholic Church thereby "lack something in their condition as particular Churches". The communities born out of the 16th-century Protestant Reformation "do not enjoy apostolic succession in the sacrament of Orders, and are, therefore, deprived of a constituent element of the Church."


I'm sorry to make you repeat yourself, I've not read the thread. In the text of the Nicene Creed, did it have a capital letter?


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## SixFootScowl

> Quote Originally Posted by Florestan View Post
> Maybe so, but I have read through the text (in English) of Beethoven's Missa Solemnis and see nothing a Lutheran could object to.





KenOC said:


> From the Credo: "I believe in One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church."
> 
> Credo in unam sanctam Catholicam et Apostolicam Ecclesiam. (from Beethoven's Missa Solemnis)


That little bid in the mass does not concern me. Hard to tell it is capitalized when listening. 

A good question is why didn't Beethoven include some of the more prominent Catholic parts in is mass as others did?


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## CMonteverdi

Florestan said:


> That little bid in the mass does not concern me. Hard to tell it is capitalized when listening.
> 
> A good question is why didn't Beethoven include some of the more prominent Catholic parts in is mass as others did?


What do you mean with "prominent catholic parts"? If you take Mozart masses (or Palestrina, or Monteverdi) you find the usual kirye gloria credo sanctus agnus dei. Only exception: the Requiem. Bu that'S because Requiem mass has a its "Proprium".

LK


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## SixFootScowl

CMonteverdi said:


> What do you mean with "prominent catholic parts"? If you take Mozart masses (or Palestrina, or Monteverdi) you find the usual kirye gloria credo sanctus agnus dei. Only exception: the Requiem. Bu that'S because Requiem mass has a its "Proprium".
> 
> LK


Well, I guess I am mistaken. I thought I had looked at some of the other masses and saw specific catholic elements, but apparently I misrecall. Probably was thinking of the Ave Maria, which is a separate musical work. Yes, the requiem too appears to be very much a Catholic work, except for Brahm's German Requiem.


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## KenOC

Florestan said:


> A good question is why didn't Beethoven include some of the more prominent Catholic parts in is mass as others did?


Beethoven's Missa is a complete setting of the Catholic mass with nothing left out. I understand Schubert did a bit of red-penciling in some of his masses, but not Ludwig.


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## SixFootScowl

KenOC said:


> Beethoven's Missa is a complete setting of the Catholic mass with nothing left out. I understand Schubert did a bit of red-penciling in some of his masses, but not Ludwig.


Well I can't see anything objectionable from the perspective of a Lutheran anyway. I do realize that some parts of it may be understood differently by Catholics vs Lutherans or Reformed Christians.


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## doctorjohn

Manxfeeder said:


> Noncatholic composers also tend to write very busy music for the Credo in order to obscure phrases like "I believe in the holy Catholic church."


The Anglican church shares the same three creeds with church of Rome.as do many other "protestant" churches


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