# Elgar: An English or International Composer?



## jflatter (Mar 31, 2010)

The link below is an interview that Daniel Barenboim gave on Elgar. Barenboim says that he gets mad at people calling Elgar "that English composer". This could be due to his music being a key part of the Last Night of the Proms. However I agree that his works should be put into the wider rep abroad if they are not getting much attention. His symphonies, concertos and oratorios deserve respect and attention.

I'd be interested to hear from TC members and in particular from outside the UK what they think of Elgar. Furthermore does his music get much airing in your respective countries?

http://www.theguardian.com/music/musicblog/2015/apr/20/barenboim-champions-elgar-music-fit-for-universal-consumption


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## Chronochromie (May 17, 2014)

He sounds more German than British imo.


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## jflatter (Mar 31, 2010)

Der Leiermann said:


> He sounds more German than British imo.


Well he was certainly influenced by German composers. An example being The Dream of Gerontius is very much influenced by Parsifal.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Did he know about Mahler? The second symphony, which is the thing I like most by him, reminds me of Mahler sometimes, in Elgar's first recording of it, and in Barborolli's first recording.


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## MagneticGhost (Apr 7, 2013)

He sounds like Elgar to me.


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## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

Bearing in mind that when Elgar came to prominence the reputation of English classical music was about as strong as a baby's handshake it's not surprising that we puffed out our chests out a bit when he was championed by the likes of Hans Richter and Richard Strauss. However, it's not too difficult to detect a direct link with previous German masters even with the works that had English/British themes, such as Cockaigne, The Spirit of England, The Banner of St. George and Caractacus. Of composers who were born in the mid-late 19th century I think a more distinct 'English' style came through primarily via Ralph Vaughan Williams and, eventually, the likes of John Ireland, Gustav Holst and Frederick Delius rather than Elgar himself.


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## MagneticGhost (Apr 7, 2013)

MagneticGhost said:


> He sounds like Elgar to me.


Actually - reading down the thread it looks as if I mean that Mahler sounds like Elgar because I just followed directly below without quoting. 
I was actually meaning - that Elgar doesn't sound German or English as such. I find he has a very distinct individual voice. Although you can hear the German influences - he creates music that is undeniably Elgarian. Which is probably why some people find him difficult to like.
Wasn't he an autodidact as well? I've never read his biography but seem to remember hearing this somewhere.


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## Orfeo (Nov 14, 2013)

Elgar is to my mind more like a trailblazing English composer who broke new grounds in his country's music. Keep in mind that before Elgar entered the scene, English music was essentially conservative (Stanford, Parry, Purcell, religious music, etc.) and not as much of a force by the end of the 19th century in Classical Music, compared to say, Germany and even Russia. Performing and studying composers like Mendelssohn, Schumann, and Brahms were well to the fore and British composers were influenced by them (too much so some would argue). Both Stanford & Parry were giants in their days, but Elgar came in and shook the English musical establishment by its very foundation: the premiere of his First Symphony was an astounding success and forever changed the nature of the British symphony (up to then Stanford's Irish Symphony was the most popular). That was how original Elgar became.

It is true that he absorbed the influences of music of Wagner and Strauss (_In the South_ for instance). But those influences were not so significant and even passing. Elgar was successful in combining what he had learned from the more classical tradition (e.g. he loved Schumann), with the ideas of Wagner and Strauss to become a thoroughly English composer with his unique, forward-looking stamp. In some ways he reminds me of Alfven of Sweden (whose Second Symphony was a sensation overnight at its May 2, 1899 premiere conducted by Wilhelm Stenhammar).

both MagneticGhost elgars ghost have it right above.


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## Orfeo (Nov 14, 2013)

elgars ghost said:


> Bearing in mind that when Elgar came to prominence the reputation of English classical music was about as strong as a baby's handshake it's not surprising that we puffed out our chests out a bit when he was championed by the likes of Hans Richter and Richard Strauss. However, it's not too difficult to detect a direct link with previous German masters even with the works that had English/British themes, such as Cockaigne, The Spirit of England, The Banner of St. George and Caractacus. Of composers who were born in the mid-late 19th century I think a more distinct 'English' style came through primarily via Ralph Vaughan Williams and, eventually, the likes of John Ireland, Gustav Holst and Frederick Delius rather than Elgar himself.


And Cyril Scott along with Bax (and Baines, to name a few).


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## jflatter (Mar 31, 2010)

But for those of you outside of the UK is there much opportunity to hear his work live?


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## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

dholling said:


> And Cyril Scott along with Bax (and Baines, to name a few).


Agreed, dh - quite a number of other contenders.


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## ArtMusic (Jan 5, 2013)

Elgar wrote melodies were at times beautiful and very accessible. He was a fine English composer. That's all it matters to me (and I suspect many who enjoys his music in the UK).


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## Wodensbyrig (Oct 3, 2013)

Elgar once said that Schumann was his ideal. When you think about it, there is a lot of Schumann in his thinking - the ciphers, the enigmas, and - even - some obsessions. He is a great stitcher of quotations into his textures - even the Serenade makes more sense if you remember that part of the reason for its composition isn't just that it was a present for his wife, but an attempt to make up for not being able to go to Bayreuth that year - so there are Wagnerian references. All through the Enigma Variations there are quotations - no wonder no-one has ever satisfactorily identified the theme which "goes but is never played". The Pathetique sonata, "E amore un ladroncello", even Brahms. And what he thought were the pieces in which he revealed himself most - the Violin Concerto, the Second Symphony, The Music Makers - ( and I would add Falstaff) are at bottom autobiographical - exactly the sort of thing Richard Strauss was doing in the 1890s. Nothing about any of this is particularly "English", but that didn't stop him being conscripted for Imperial purposes, and the works that were so used are often his most personal and intimate. "Nimrod" is a personal tribute to a friend, not a heroic elegy.

But what is least understood about him is his skill in thematic transformation. We all know the way in which the scherzo of the First Symphony provides, simply by tempo change, the theme of the slow movement. What's not realised is that most of his textures are doing similar things all the time (the Symphony scherzo theme itself derives from the first movement's first allegro theme, for example, and he mines the bass of the introduction theme as well, throughout) - the string quartet, for example, is as tightly composed as Schoenberg. All this was what post-Brahmsian Central European compositional technique was all about. 

Elgar's father had tried to get Cherubini's Masses performed in Worcester, and Elgar had studied Cherubini's treatise on counterpoint. It stuck. I once, without even thinking about it, played the Toscanini Cherubini Requiem in C minor, and followed it with the Payne reconstruction of the Third Symphony sketches. It hadn't even occurred to me that the Symphony was in the same key as the Mass. But the Symphony's slow movement, even through Payne's ears, seemed almost a natural consequence of the Mass. He was through and through a composer steeped in the European tradition, who just happened to have been born in England. So was Purcell. They wrote music, not "English music".


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## superhorn (Mar 23, 2010)

Elgar is a great composer, period , but his music has an unmistakably English flavor to it that's difficult to describe . It's difficult to put in words exactly what makes his music sound "English" , but it just DOES . I don't think it could have been written by a composer from another country .
Most people know his music only by a handful of his sizable output : the Enigma variations, the Pomp and Circumstance marches, the cello concerto or possibly the violin concerto ,too , but is two great symphonies are not played too often outside of Great Britain, which is a pity , because they're stunning works .
His oratorio "The Dream of Gerontius " is one of the greatest works of its kind . I love other orchestral works of his such as the "Cockgaine" overture, "In The South ", and his brilliant Straussian symphonic poem Falstaff is pitifully neglected .
The last performance in America I recall was when Sir Andrew Davis, a staunch champion of Elgar, did it long ago with the New York Philharmonic , I believe about thirty or so years ago .
My local library has a massive 30 CD ! set of Elgar recordings on EMI with such eminent Elgarians as Boult, Barbirolli and others . Not every work in it is great , but there are quite a few works of real interest that aren't well known on it, and it even includes several of the composer's own recordings . If you're willing to pay for it, it's well worth having .


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## Headphone Hermit (Jan 8, 2014)

superhorn said:


> My local library has a massive 30 CD ! set of Elgar recordings on EMI with such eminent Elgarians as Boult, Barbirolli and others . Not every work in it is great , but there are quite a few works of real interest that aren't well known on it, and it even includes several of the composer's own recordings . If you're willing to pay for it, it's well worth having .


This was an EMI box set in their 'Collector's Edition' series. As I remember, it was relatively cheap a few years ago and a bargain if you want a good introduction to the range of Elgar's music


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## Sloe (May 9, 2014)

ArtMusic said:


> Elgar wrote melodies were at times beautiful and very accessible. He was a fine English composer. That's all it matters to me (and I suspect many who enjoys his music in the UK).


He did compose what is probably the most famous work in British classical music and that can´t be taken away from him.

I also like Caractacus:






And his first symphony:


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## brotagonist (Jul 11, 2013)

elgars ghost said:


> ...it's not too difficult to detect a direct link with previous German masters.... Of composers who were born in the mid-late 19th century I think a more distinct 'English' style came through primarily via Ralph Vaughan Williams... rather than Elgar himself.


This is exactly what I believe I was hearing in my recent sampling and listening of some of their works  and, thus, prompted me to recently say that I think Elgar is closer to my wavelength than Vaughan Williams is.


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

brotagonist said:


> This is exactly what I believe I was hearing in my recent sampling and listening of some of their works  and, thus, prompted me to recently say that I think Elgar is closer to my wavelength than Vaughan Williams is.


I would say that the so-called English style was an early, passing phase for RVW and doesn't describe much of his music from about Job or the 4th symphony onwards, and certainly doesn't apply to (e.g.) Britten, Bax, Howells or Tippett, however there are quite a number of lesser known 20th century English composers who have a quite recognizable similarity, e.g. Moeran, Bliss et.al.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Headphone Hermit said:


> This was an EMI box set in their 'Collector's Edition' series. As I remember, it was relatively cheap a few years ago and a bargain if you want a good introduction to the range of Elgar's music


Indeed, a wonderful set, with some of the twentieth century's leading interpreters of Elgar's music. I got it cheap early on. It contains the bulk of Elgar's best work, and most of the performances are so good that I feel little need to invest in other recordings of the repertoire.


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## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

Becca said:


> I would say that the so-called English style was an early, passing phase for RVW and doesn't describe much of his music from about Job or the 4th symphony onwards, and certainly doesn't apply to (e.g.) Britten, Bax, Howells or Tippett, however there are quite a number of lesser known 20th century English composers who have a quite recognizable similarity, e.g. Moeran, Bliss et.al.


I would agree with regards to some of the later instrumental works, but VW still wrote a fair quantity of vocal music in the last 25 or so years of his life which strikes me as being as much "English" as his early output even when allowing for English texts. I'm a little surprised with your exclusion of Howells as not being part of the English tradition - if you had to pigeon-hole him where would he go?


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

elgars ghost said:


> I would agree with regards to some of the later instrumental works, but VW still wrote a fair quantity of vocal music in the last 25 or so years of his life which strikes me as being as much "English" as his early output even when allowing for English texts. I'm a little surprised with your exclusion of Howells as not being part of the English *tradition* - if you had to pigeon-hole him where would he go?


The original reference was to style not tradition and Howell's mature works, particularly his large scale ones, are less immediately 'English' than Elgar. One other composer who I should have included in that list is Bantock. As to 'pigeon-holes', I don't (usually) believe in them.


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