# The art of Gegorian ,there two type purist vox only & vox+instrumental ornements?



## deprofundis (Apr 25, 2014)

Normally or first school of Gregorian music teaching was purely vocal ,i have an LP that defenatly this , the 1951 decca release Chant Gregorien it's superbe, most Alberto Turco follow the old protocols of gregorian, while i happen to have acquired another narly LP, at first i was displease on a minus fews details? hmm made in canada in the late 70 or early 80, thus meaning the media even if mint is cheap the vynil is thin but i kept these detail and would listen.

Suprise this Phillips- festivo series is quite enjoyable , Gregorian whit Ornements such as organ is enjoyable, but Gregorian whit ornement is it still Gregorian or Gregoriana, music akind to gregorian music, but not for purist of genra?

What your opinion, do you like Gregorian, love it for my side, the ornement featuring also bells, love these.?

Can gregorian still be gregorian whit instrumentals ornement such as slight organ work and bells.

I mean i have gazillions download of Gregorian, and two cd album i consider Gregorian music whit ornements Ars Elaboratio & some Box-set i try to located in my library but could't there gazillions cd, but it's a box-set of Gregorian music whit ornements.

So how about it lady & Gentelmen elaborated on subject please i want audiophile, musicologist, expert in gregorian music of Pope Gregory(circa 600), verdict on Gregorian is it ment to be purist in format ,thus said & meaning no ornements or it's still Gregorian if sung in monodic mode= the gregorian blue print i presume.

Monodic exemple Gombert : inviolata (Gombert cd brabant brewed album track 5 i recalled)

Than to make this question more interresting missa whit ornements where active in europe. to keep beleiver interrest in music of mass & art, perhaps gregorian, sarum, ambrosian ,mozarabic did that same , putting refinement sutch as slight instrumental ornementation: organ, bells, psaleterion(you know this old instrument whit an incredible lovely sound).

i.e Ensemble Cosmedin effort on naxos called anima mea , quite lovely but is it gregorian are gregoriana , music akind to the first music?

I want a maximun answer to this, show me your knowledge of genra , i ask kindly academics of music schools, our good friend Bjorn Smelzer or whatever humans on this planet that can answer this?


----------



## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

I have heard bells used in elaborate organum, presumably it helps keep the boys in tune, here's a lovely example






It's true that some Cistercian monks criticised florid singing (I can find you some references for that if you want.) Some cathedrals had different ideas, and in any case the objection to florid singing may have been a particularly cistercian preoccupation. The bishops who managed the budgets in cathedrals needed to get sponsors and bums on seats in services and I suppose florid music was one way. There's a lot of interesting records about how the Vatican wanted the service music done in a certaain way, but couldn't control the cathedrals, who just saw their attempt at centralised control as inappropriate. Even in the monastery style, where I guess the Vatican had more influence there was plenty of florid chanting, in Aquitaine for example. (The organisation of monasteries was simpler, they didn't need a big turnover -- cathedrals had enormous buildings to care for, with a big payroll)

By the way, seeing your post reminded me to mention this CD, one of the high points of last year. If you don't have it, get it.


----------



## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

I have a CD of Gregorian chant which is "harmonized" by organ, and I can't stand it. Heresy!

On the other hand, I have a Hildegard von Bingen which is accompanied with a single-note drone, and I like that. I think it sounds cool. As long as there's no harmony, a drone is fine. That's what Gregorian chant is all about, isn't it? Vocal elaborations around a tonic note, implied or real? Huh? Isn't it?

Here's a link to Mandryka's CD: https://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/art/eine-spaetmittelalterliche-messe/hnum/8688093?lang=en


----------



## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

There's this, where the chant is accompanied by a band of amateurs trying to play hunting horns. St. Hubert is patron saint of hunting. It's well worth a listen.


----------



## Haydn70 (Jan 8, 2017)

millionrainbows said:


> I have a CD of Gregorian chant which is "harmonized" by organ, and I can't stand it. Heresy!
> 
> On the other hand, I have a Hildegard von Bingen which is accompanied with a single-note drone, and I like that. I think it sounds cool. *As long as there's no harmony, a drone is fine. That's what Gregorian chant is all about, isn't it? Vocal elaborations around a tonic note, implied or real? Huh? Isn't it?*
> 
> Here's a link to Mandryka's CD: https://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/art/eine-spaetmittelalterliche-messe/hnum/8688093?lang=en


I think you already know this MR but I will state it anyway. If a drone is used under an existing chant then technically the result would be considered a type of organum.


----------



## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

Haydn70 said:


> I think you already know this MR but I will state it anyway. If a drone is used under an existing chant then technically the result would be considered a type of organum.


Is an accompaniment drone really a "voice"? I think your reply might be misleading. Drones don't move with the melody like in true organum. What kinda organum are you talking about? You don't "compose" a drone.


----------



## Haydn70 (Jan 8, 2017)

millionrainbows said:


> Is an accompaniment drone really a "voice"? I think your reply might be misleading.
> 
> View attachment 116181


I see your point. I was thinking of florid or melismatic organum wherein each note of a particular chant is held for a number of seconds in one voice while another voice sings melodic phrases over it. There is something of a "drone effect" but it is not actually a drone.






That said, the lower part, i.e., the actual sustained chant notes could have possibly been performed on an instrument at times. This is from Richard H. Hoppin's textbook _Medieval Music_: "...the term organum can mean either the early forms of polyphony or the organ as a musical instrument; and, in some cases, performance with organ accompaniment seems implied."


----------



## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

They call "melismatic" by the term "riffing" now. Stevie Wonder invented it. :lol:


----------



## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Haydn70 said:


> in some cases, performance with organ accompaniment seems implied."


Does he back that up?


----------



## Haydn70 (Jan 8, 2017)

Mandryka said:


> Does he back that up?


Here are two captures from the book (pp. 168 and 169) which include the quote from my earlier post:

















I included page 169 as he discusses use of other instruments which sort of connects to this thread topic.


----------



## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Haydn70 said:


> Here are two captures from the book (pp. 168 and 169) which include the quote from my earlier post:
> 
> View attachment 116188
> 
> ...


Thanks.

It's far from suggesting that organum like in Leonin or Abelard was instrumental.


----------



## Haydn70 (Jan 8, 2017)

Mandryka said:


> Thanks.
> 
> It's far from suggesting that organum like in Leonin or Abelard was instrumental.


I agree. I don't see where you got the idea I (or Hoppin) was arguing that organum was instrumental; I wasn't...just that organum was at times possibly accompanied by organ.


----------



## Haydn70 (Jan 8, 2017)

I have an LP entitled _Medieval Music; Ars Antiqua Polyphony_ with the Pro Antiqua directed by Edgar Fleet. It includes examples of the various types of organa along with motets and songs.

FWIW, here is the last paragraph of the liner notes:


----------



## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

I saw the Missa Barcelona a few months ago sung with organ in alternatim with voices in the kyrie, and I thought it worked really nicely.

Here's a very nice example of the sort of effect it gives (good record to explore!)






Apparently the kyrie is a good thing to do it with because there's a tradition that that you're supposed to have 3x3=9 sections, trinity symbolism and all that, and if it's all voice it can be a bit samey!

There's a lot of interest in this stuff at the moment because there's someone in Holland (forget his name right now) who's started to make really good gothic style portative organs -- and the performers are being inspired to try out new things as a result.


----------



## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

deprofundis said:


> Normally or first school of Gregorian music teaching was purely vocal ,i have an LP that defenatly this , the 1951 decca release Chant Gregorien it's superbe, most Alberto Turco follow the old protocols of gregorian, while i happen to have acquired another narly LP, at first i was displease on a minus fews details? hmm made in canada in the late 70 or early 80, thus meaning the media even if mint is cheap the vynil is thin but i kept these detail and would listen.
> 
> Suprise this Phillips- festivo series is quite enjoyable , Gregorian whit Ornements such as organ is enjoyable, but Gregorian whit ornement is it still Gregorian or Gregoriana, music akind to gregorian music, but not for purist of genra?
> 
> ...


Have you heard the Dufay recordings from Schola Hungarica? Hymns with antiphons from Cambrai, a CD of Marian music called Recollectio, and polyphonic vespers.

Let me take this opportunity to recommend my favourite recording of Dufay masses


----------



## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

I was listening to this all day yesterday, I recommend it very enthusiastically.


----------

