# Orchestration



## HumphreyAppleby (Apr 11, 2013)

Which composer's orchestrations add the most to the drama, are the most effective, or are just the most beautiful to your ear? And which operas in particular? Why?

For me, of course, Puccini is number one. Certainly his most complex orchestral work is in _Turandot_, but my favorite of his is _Il tabarro_. The prelude is incredibly beautiful and mournful, and show just how much of a master he was with the orchestra. All throughout the work, though, he creates beautiful textures, inflections, and colors that create a world that pulls you in, despite its harshness and darkness. The precise notation of the tugboats and such is an interesting touch, as is the out of tune organ grinder. One of the scenes that really gets me is the bitonal scoring of the distant trumpet after he's been shot down in the scene below. The seething anger and pain conveyed in the orchestra contrasted with the quotidian trumpet call is just unbearably intense.

Here's an example of the beautiful orchestration, in a scene where Michele tries to get Giorgetta to love him again, after they drifted apart when their son died: 




Another opera with great orchestration is Charpentier's _Louise_. It's consistently lovely, atmospheric, and rich.

Of course Wagner's operas are great in this regard, as are Verdi's late works. I also think that Rossini, though not on par with the others, was a great and vivacious orchestrator. Massenet is as lovely as you can get, especially _Thais_.


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## arpeggio (Oct 4, 2012)

*Sibelius*

Check out my post concerning the Sibelious _Third Symphony_

http://www.talkclassical.com/2816-jean-sibelius-21.html#post433618

Edit: Sorry-the title was "Orchestration". I thought the thread covered all orchestrations.


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## ahammel (Oct 10, 2012)

Listen to Ravel's piano suite _Le tombeau de Couperin_. Now listen to his orchestration of the same piece.

Now pick your jaw up off the floor.


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

This is an opera thread friends


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Itullian said:


> This is an opera thread friends


The plural of "opus" is "opera." That kind of opens the gates, eh?


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## ahammel (Oct 10, 2012)

Oh. Whoops!


Wagner, then.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Richard Strauss reckoned if you wanted to study orchestration to opera then go to Bizet's Carmen rather than Wagner.


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## dgee (Sep 26, 2013)

Carmen is an incredibly colorful, vivid and innovative score, particularly for its time. Wagner draws on a much broader palette than anyone before him, particularly with the huge band and extra instruments in the Ring. The beginning of Salome! In fact Strauss in general. That man could drive an orchestra and informed all late romantic (and on) orchestration. Britten is a good orchestrator and word painter too - Peter Grimes and Billy Budd have wonderfully effective orchestral writing throughout (the Sea Interludes!)


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## Aramis (Mar 1, 2009)

Wagner, Strauss and other German fellows are obviously advanced, competent and highly skillful in this regard, but I can't say I'm entirely in awe for them. The rich often becomes heavy-handed and overloaded.

I very much like Gounod's writing for orchestra. It's colourful but never heavy and overblown, on the contrary. And speaking of French composers, there's Berlioz too, master of the craft. And Tchaikovsky, who learned so much from them.

Many claim that Italians before late Verdi didn't do any good, but there are some examples that prove otherwise. I was always greatly impressed by that fragment of Norma when she proclaims war after hitting the gong. <BRASS FART> GUERRA <BRASS FART> STRAAAGE <BRASS FART> STEEERMINIO! That's pretty proficient usage of orchestra for me, though obviously some might say that it's not good because Bellini should have written 20-minutes of instrumental interlude entitled "Adalgisa journey through haunted Gallic forest" with sound effects depicting stuff.

For more modern stuff, my choice is _King Roger_ of Szymanowski. When he was younger he learned from Strauss and Wagner, but later on understood that this way of orchestral writing has it's faults and developed more subtle way of his own (after yet another period of learning from other great composers, this time impressionists). In _King Roger_ it was already mastered.


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## Couac Addict (Oct 16, 2013)

Aramis said:


> though obviously some might say that it's not good because Bellini should have written 20-minutes of instrumental interlude entitled "Adalgisa journey through haunted Gallic forest" with sound effects depicting stuff.


The operatic equivalent of _free-form jazz exploration.
_


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## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

Berg's Wozzeck and Lulu have excellent orchestration, if a bit thick in spots. Schoenberg's Moses und Aron uses the flexatone without sounding silly, and that's quite an accomplishment. And of course we can't forget to mention Ravel for L'enfant et les sortileges.


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## schigolch (Jun 26, 2011)

Orchestration means different things to different composers.

When the action is in the pit, at the same level of prominence, or even higher sometimes, than the voices, some good examples have been shared already. Personally, I deeply admire Erich Wolfgang Korngold mastery of the trade.

On the other hand, as mentioned by Aramis, for composers like Vincenzo Bellini, the essence of the drama was in the voices, to be transmited by the singers: _ il dramma per musica deve far piangere, inorridire, morire... cantando. _Of course, he was in any case able to write some almost impossibly beautiful intrumental music, such as the prelude in B minor to the Second Act of _Norma_, but the orchestration of his operas was oriented to support, to complement, the singing. According to the Italian tradition, but also respecting his own individuality as a composer, his _musica filosofica_.

On terms of complexity, few things in the field of Opera, or indeed in any other field of music, can compete with the spectaculer "Grand concert d'oiseaux" in Messiaen's _Saint François d'Assise_.


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## HumphreyAppleby (Apr 11, 2013)

Aramis said:


> Wagner, Strauss and other German fellows are obviously advanced, competent and highly skillful in this regard, but I can't say I'm entirely in awe for them. The rich often becomes heavy-handed and overloaded.
> 
> I very much like Gounod's writing for orchestra. It's colourful but never heavy and overblown, on the contrary. And speaking of French composers, there's Berlioz too, master of the craft.


Yes, Wagner's orchestrations vary. _Tristan_ is glorious, but parts of the ring just make me laugh- they're so brassy. It makes me think of a marching band, which invariably makes me think of Woody Allen playing the cello in a marching band. By this point I've completely lost track of what's happening. I can't make it through Ride of the Valkyries without giggling.

And thank you! for reminding me of Berlioz. Brilliant. _Benvenuto Cellini_ is fantastic- the little prelude before Sur les monts le plus sauvages is one of my favorite moments.



> Personally, I deeply admire Erich Wolfgang Korngold mastery of the trade.


Oh yes, he's fantastic. I greatly prefer his operas to those of Strauss.

And of course _Pelleas et Melisande_ has beautiful orchestration, which Puccini adored, but he thought the piece failed as opera.


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## sospiro (Apr 3, 2010)

arpeggio said:


> Check out my post concerning the Sibelious _Third Symphony_
> 
> http://www.talkclassical.com/2816-jean-sibelius-21.html#post433618
> 
> Edit: Sorry-the title was "Orchestration". I thought the thread covered all orchestrations.


No need to apologise - easily done. Stick around & you might become a fan!


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## arpeggio (Oct 4, 2012)

*What make's you think I dislike opera?*



sospiro said:


> No need to apologise - easily done. Stick around & you might become a fan!


What make's you think I dislike opera?


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## sospiro (Apr 3, 2010)

arpeggio said:


> What make's you think I dislike opera?


I wasn't saying you disliked it but I hadn't seen you on the opera forum very often so jumped to the wrong conclusion.

Sorry.


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

Britten, the ability to write for any instrument as if he was the absolute authority of it (understanding all the techniques, and how to get them to produce the sounds he wants), and the ability to write music that perfectly accompanies and reflects what is happening on stage and the action on stage perfectly reflecting what's going in in the pit, and often with a very small selection of instruments(!!!) it's simply been done no better by anyone else.


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