# Composers best known for other reasons



## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Some composers wrote creditable music, but are remembered mostly for other things. I'll kick off with Sir Frederick William Herschel. He played the oboe, cello, harpsichord, and organ, and wrote 24 symphonies and a large number of concertos.

He became interested in lenses and then telescopes, building larger and larger reflecting models. Among his accomplishments:

- Suggested that double stars were binary sidereal systems (which was correct)
- Discovered the planet Uranus
- Determined that nebulae were collections of individual stars
- Undertook an extensive deep-sky survey and created the first major catalog of celestial objects
- Discovered several new moons of the outer planets
- Determined that the solar system was moving through space, and estimated its speed and direction
- Identified infrared as a form of light beyond the visible spectrum.

Sadly, his music is less well-remembered. But good. Take a listen.


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## Logos (Nov 3, 2012)

Frederick the Great comes to mind.


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## crmoorhead (Apr 6, 2011)

Logos said:


> Frederick the Great comes to mind.


Sounds great! (No pun intended!)


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## Logos (Nov 3, 2012)

Henry VIII wrote fine courtly music.


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## crmoorhead (Apr 6, 2011)

Some might be interested to know that John Cage also composed music. 

I'll add something useful when I can remember what it was I was actually going to say....


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## GreenMamba (Oct 14, 2012)

Lionel Barrymore wrote music and I believe he had works performed by orchestras. But he wasn't really a composer known for other things, he was an actor who also composed.


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## Logos (Nov 3, 2012)

Jean-Jacques Rousseau


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## Logos (Nov 3, 2012)

GreenMamba said:


> Lionel Barrymore wrote music and I believe he had works performed by orchestras. But he wasn't really a composer known for other things, he was an actor who also composed.


That's the idea. Composers best known for other things.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

GreenMamba said:


> Lionel Barrymore wrote music and I believe he had works performed by orchestras. But he wasn't really a composer known for other things, he was an actor who also composed.


No prob. The thread title says "best known for other reasons." King Henry the VIIIth ("I am I am!") is in the same category.

I'll take the opportunity to mention Melvin James Kaminsky, who wrote a lot of very good music for his movies and stage productions. He is maybe better known as Mel Brooks.


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## crmoorhead (Apr 6, 2011)

I can only think of people who are the other way round i.e. composers that are also (but less) famous for some non-musical field. Borodin, Cui, Hildegarde von Bingen, Saint-Saens, Babbitt, Ives. Some major conductors/performers have also composed works that have not been as successful as their day job, the obvious ones that I can think of being Bernstein, Gould and Previn.

Does Schobert count?

EDIT: I just remembered that Rousseau was the name that was eluding me. His name is mentioned as being a composer of operas in a book I'm reading on Mozart. One of Mozart's early operas is based on something by Rousseau, I think. I kept thinking it was Beaumarchais since he did pretty much everything, but he was only a musician and music teacher rather than a composer.


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## Logos (Nov 3, 2012)

Nietzsche


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## SerbenthumInDerMusik (Nov 9, 2012)

Nietzsche and Adorno composed a lot but are more famous as music theorists, as you all probably know. Boris Pasternak was a student of Scriabin, and composed some quite listenable works in Scriabinian style (I remember a piano sonata).

Rabindranath Tagore wrote and composed the hymns of India and Bangladesh.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Richard Nixon, of course, wrote a piano concerto...kind of...


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## Ravndal (Jun 8, 2012)

One of the more interesting threads lately!


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

Dane Rudhayar was much more famous as astrologer, but he was also a very interesting composer of the american ultramodernist group (carl ruggles, ruth crawford seeger, henry cowell). 
And Alec Wilder was much more famous as the author of the definitive book on the great american songbook than as a composer.


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## Huilunsoittaja (Apr 6, 2010)

KenOC said:


> Richard Nixon, of course, wrote a piano concerto...kind of...


HOLY COW THAT'S AWESOME!!!

Man, if only politicians were more often musicians... I think the world would be a better place... (of course you can bash me over the head showing Nixon as an example, but whatever, you know what I mean)


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## Toddlertoddy (Sep 17, 2011)

Huilunsoittaja said:


> HOLY COW THAT'S AWESOME!!!
> 
> Man, if only politicians were more often musicians... I think the world would be a better place... (of course you can bash me over the head showing Nixon as an example, but whatever, you know what I mean)


Benjamin Franklin and his string quartet


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Huilunsoittaja said:


> Man, if only politicians were more often musicians... I think the world would be a better place...


I can see it now. Obama and Putin have a major beef about Syria. PIANO DUEL time! Live on TV, I hope. I'll be ready to push my button for the winner.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Toddlertoddy said:


> Benjamin Franklin and his string quartet


No kidding. This is attributed by some to Ben Franklin. Three violins and a cello. Open strings! Pretty controversial.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Gotta do it. The Spanish inquisition, by a composer best known for other things. Torquemada stars, played by...


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## science (Oct 14, 2010)

The greatest chess player of the 18th century, Philidor, who - appropriately for an Enlightenment figure - first realized the strategic importance of pawns, was also a composer.


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## clavichorder (May 2, 2011)

KenOC said:


> Richard Nixon, of course, wrote a piano concerto...kind of...


What in the heck?!? Mind blown that he could actually play piano and was musical.


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## Schubussy (Nov 2, 2012)

Not classical but I can't resist


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## crmoorhead (Apr 6, 2011)

clavichorder said:


> What in the heck?!? Mind blown that he could actually play piano and was musical.


If musical politicians are of interest, how do the following compare?











http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_Heath#Conductor

Arguably, however, the most impressive is Paderewski, who was a world-famous pianist and composer before becoming involved in politics leading eventually to his becoming Prime Minister of Poland.


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

Oaks best known for the l'il Acorns they dropped:

Tree: Alessandro Scarlatti ~ Scion: Domenico Scarlatti
Tree: Leopold Mozart ~ Scion: Wolfgang Mozart


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## Ramako (Apr 28, 2012)

A good many famous theorists have been composers. Perhaps the most famous of these are (from memory so not exhaustive and possibly incorrect):

Johann Joseph Fux
Heinrich Schenker
Zarlino
Rameau - obviously quite a well-known composer - but one of the top theorists of his time. Probably still more widely known for his compositions (composers being better known than theorists in general).

Also a fair few conductors have been composers as well. Again from memory:

Furtwangler
Bruno Walter
Leonard Bernstein - I just found out he wrote the music to West Side Story. I literally did not know that until yesterday. Which makes him more famous to the general public? I don't know.


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## Renaissance (Jul 10, 2012)

Cyril Scott, better-known for his controversial writings on occult & esoteric themes. He was quite odd...


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## BurningDesire (Jul 15, 2012)

crmoorhead said:


> Some might be interested to know that John Cage also composed music.
> 
> I'll add something useful when I can remember what it was I was actually going to say....


lol... you're totally the first person to make that joke. It so hasn't been made 10 trillion times already!  Its still funny!


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## Zauberberg (Feb 21, 2012)

Alfonso X of Castile


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## BurningDesire (Jul 15, 2012)

Frank Zappa is more known for his weirdness, lyrics, and the names of his kids than his music. And this is tragic.


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## Wandering (Feb 27, 2012)

*
Paul Bowles*

More known more for his eerie kafkaesque fiction analyzing racial and cultural estrangments.


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## crmoorhead (Apr 6, 2011)

Clovis said:


> .


Loving the pic!


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Ramako mentioned Fux as a theorist who was also a composer. Interestingly, Johann Georg Albrechtsberger is best known a teacher of composition, and his main text was Fux's _Gradus ad Parnassum_. His more famous pupils included Johann Nepomuk Hummel, Ignaz Moscheles, and Ludwig van Beethoven.

But he also composed. Aside from the usual run of things, he wrote some concertos including one for trombone and several for the jaw harp. Must have been an odd commission.


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## dionisio (Jul 30, 2012)

Ramako said:


> Leonard Bernstein - I just found out he wrote the music to West Side Story. I literally did not know that until yesterday. Which makes him more famous to the general public? I don't know.


I knew first about Bernstein as a composer, so than i learnt that he as a conductor. West side story and Candide are pretty much well known, specially WSS.


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## Renaissance (Jul 10, 2012)

Contemporary classical music "composers" (mostly) are best known for their weird ideas about music they (supposedly) "composed" instead of the music itself.


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## BurningDesire (Jul 15, 2012)

Renaissance said:


> Contemporary classical music "composers" (mostly) are best known for their weird ideas about music they (supposedly) "composed" instead of the music itself.


>_> do we really need to beat around the bush. Its obvious you're complaining about John Cage. You could make the same arguments toward other great composers. Beethoven is best know for "Ba da da daaaa!".


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## Renaissance (Jul 10, 2012)

BurningDesire said:


> >_> do we really need to beat around the bush. Its obvious you're complaining about John Cage. You could make the same arguments toward other great composers. Beethoven is best know for "Ba da da daaaa!".


That took 250 pages of score before he finally putted in the form as we know it. This is sub-appreciation.


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## Zauberberg (Feb 21, 2012)

BurningDesire said:


> >_> do we really need to beat around the bush. Its obvious you're complaining about John Cage. You could make the same arguments toward other great composers. Beethoven is best know for "Ba da da daaaa!".


...ba da da daaa! ba da da da ba da da da ba da da da ba da da da ba da da da ba da da da ba da da daa ba da da daa BA DA DA DAA! DAA, DAA!!!


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

BurningDesire said:


> >_> do we really need to beat around the bush. Its obvious you're complaining about John Cage.


It could be argued that John Cage qualifies for this thread.


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## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

Ezra Pound wrote two operas and several pieces for solo violin. 

Marcel Duchamp wrote music - kind of.


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## BurningDesire (Jul 15, 2012)

Renaissance said:


> That took 250 pages of score before he finally putted in the form as we know it. This is sub-appreciation.


And alot of Cage's music took serious effort too. Probably not usually to the same tortured degree of Beethoven, but since when do we judge music based on how hard it was for the composer to make it? People seem to praise Mozart's ability to create with little difficulty.


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## BurningDesire (Jul 15, 2012)

KenOC said:


> It could be argued that John Cage qualifies for this thread.


Except he is known as a composer. Whether you like his music or not, that is what he's known for. Its simply more attacks on him for no good reason. Is it really necessary to constantly bash a composer, usually with the intent of insulting people who like his work? If you have nothing worthwhile to contribute to a discussion, except for the same tired complaints against Cage and his legitimacy as a composer, or mean-spirited jokes about him and his musical ideas, why not go elsewhere and discuss something you do like (and actually understand)?


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## Ramako (Apr 28, 2012)

BurningDesire said:


> Except he is known as a composer. Whether you like his music or not, that is what he's known for. Its simply more attacks on him for no good reason. Is it really necessary to constantly bash a composer, usually with the intent of insulting people who like his work? If you have nothing worthwhile to contribute to a discussion, except for the same tired complaints against Cage and his legitimacy as a composer, or mean-spirited jokes about him and his musical ideas, why not go elsewhere and discuss something you do like (and actually understand)?


Well, really Cage is known for 4:33. Whether 4:33 is music or not is the question - not cacti etc.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Ramako said:


> Well, really Cage is known for 4:33. Whether 4:33 is music or not is the question - not cacti etc.


Yes, that was my point. I believe Cage is "best known" (out in the real world, not necessaily in this forum) for 4'33". If that is not considered "music," then he is best known for "other reasons."

BTW, many do not consider 4'33" to be music. A fact, not courting controversy.


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## BurningDesire (Jul 15, 2012)

Ramako said:


> Well, really Cage is known for 4:33. Whether 4:33 is music or not is the question - not cacti etc.


and Beethoven is known to most people for the opening motto of the 5th Symphony. Neither is really a fair representation of their entire output, wouldn't you agree? Personally, I would call 4'33'' music, because it is art made of sounds. It is made of incredibly quiet, unpredictable sounds, but it is still a performance where the sound is the art. I also personally prefer other of Cage's pieces, mostly the ones before he went into total indeterminacy, and later works that go back to that more personal style, but I respect his artistic decisions, his ideas about sound and music, and his status as a composer because that is what he was: an artist who's medium is sound. Some people say his music is laughable, or that he was like a practical joker, and in some senses this is true, there are many of Cage's indeterminate works which have alot of inherent humor to them, either in the sounds that are heard, or the visual aspect of the performance. I really do resent the vast majority of Cage detractors though because they really don't understand anything about Cage or his artistic vision or goals. They assume he's some pretentious snob, or some artsy fartsy elitist. They ignore his many varied works, and his genuine skill and craft in regards to more traditionally composed music. They don't understand his ideas, and they take offense to them as if one person having a different opinion somehow weakens their views on art. At first I was greatly skeptical of 4'33'', and Cage and his ideas, but unlike many others, I actually learnt more about him, and listened to more than a single piece, and I found music that was beautiful, and ideas that are beautiful as well. People say things like his ideas "invalidate art" and "artists" because then anybody could be an artist, and to that I say "so what?" Many many people are artists. If anything, it is more of an argument against the ideas of art being an elite thing, and the idea that there is any single, truly objective standard for art, which there isn't. Art isn't about the difficulty it takes to make it, it is about the expression of an idea or ideas.


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## clavichorder (May 2, 2011)

People have probably mentioned these guys, but German Romantic ETA Hoffman was very musical and wrote some decent works. Nietzsche composed too although perhaps not as well(Wagner and Cosima would laugh at his music).


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## violadude (May 2, 2011)

KenOC said:


> Richard Nixon, of course, wrote a piano concerto...kind of...


mmm ya, lay on that schmaltz a little thicker please.


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## Wandering (Feb 27, 2012)

I found an album online, squinting enough to read the back art. Songs of Bruno Walter.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

clavichorder said:


> People have probably mentioned these guys, but German Romantic ETA Hoffman was very musical and wrote some decent works. Nietzsche composed too although perhaps not as well(Wagner and Cosima would laugh at his music).


Great catch with Hoffman! Nietzsche (five consonants in a row!) has been mentioned I think.


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## violadude (May 2, 2011)

I'm best known for being stupid. Composing is just a thing I do on the side.


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## SuperTonic (Jun 3, 2010)

PetrB said:


> Oaks best known for the l'il Acorns they dropped:
> 
> Tree: Alessandro Scarlatti ~ Scion: Domenico Scarlatti
> Tree: Leopold Mozart ~ Scion: Wolfgang Mozart


One more on the father/son theme: Vincenzo Galilei, composer from the late Renaissance. He also contributed to the science of accoustics. His interest in the sciences rubbed off on his son, Galileo, and we all know where that went.


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## superhorn (Mar 23, 2010)

The notorious 19th century anti-semite Richard Wagner also composed .













:lol: :lol: :lol:


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## dieglhix (Sep 25, 2012)

Even Leonardo composed.


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## ptr (Jan 22, 2013)

Gustav Mahler was known to his contemporaries as one of the foremost Kapellmeisters of their time! Not many cared for his music at the time...

Gordon Getty is known for squandering his family fortune, no one really cares that he (de)compose (in a) 19th century style... :devil:

/ptr


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## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

ptr said:


> Gustav Mahler was known to his contemporaries as one of the foremost Kapellmeisters of their time! Not many cared for his music at the time...


One obituary declared: "We cannot imagine that his music will much outlast him."


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## Bone (Jan 19, 2013)

Mahlerian said:


> One obituary declared: "We cannot imagine that his music will much outlast him."


Missed completely with that prediction.

Not sure Anton Rubinstein belongs on this list since he isn't too well remembered for much of anything, but that's all I've got.


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## BurningDesire (Jul 15, 2012)

Though its likely most of the negative criticism leveled at Mahler's music was due to antisemetism.


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## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

BurningDesire said:


> Though its likely most of the negative criticism leveled at Mahler's music was due to antisemetism.


Some of it definitely was. References to his supposed eclecticism (it was thought that being without a homeland was distinctly Jewish) and comparisons to Meyerbeer (which appeared frequently) probably arose from antisemitic feelings. The majority was just simple incomprehension at this very new-sounding music. Passages like the one I quoted in the critical overstatements thread, by a good friend of the composer's, did not come out of antisemitism, and they are practically indistinguishable from the other critical reviews of the time (believe me, I've read reams of them).


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Mahlerian said:


> Some of it definitely was. References to his supposed eclecticism (it was thought that being without a homeland was distinctly Jewish) and comparisons to Meyerbeer (which appeared frequently) probably arose from antisemitic feelings. The majority was just simple incomprehension at this very new-sounding music. Passages like the one I quoted in the critical overstatements thread, by a good friend of the composer's, did not come out of antisemitism, and they are practically indistinguishable from the other critical reviews of the time (believe me, I've read reams of them).


"Contemporary" music is often difficult for even the best-intentioned to understand. Schumann once said that he like Chopin's music well enough, but often couldn't tell if Chopin was playing the right notes or not.


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## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

KenOC said:


> "Contemporary" music is often difficult for even the best-intentioned to understand. Schumann once said that he like Chopin's music well enough, but often couldn't tell if Chopin was playing the right notes or not.


When Bruckner's 3rd symphony was given its disastrous premiere by the Vienna Philharmonic, some of the instruments purposefully played wrong notes. Orchestras still do that today, in the belief that nobody will be able to tell the difference.


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## tdc (Jan 17, 2011)

Mahlerian said:


> When Bruckner's 3rd symphony was given its disastrous premiere by the Vienna Philharmonic, *some of the instruments purposefully played wrong notes. Orchestras still do that today, in the belief that nobody will be able to tell the difference*.


Can you explain this further? You are suggesting that modern orchestras sometimes purposefully play the wrong notes, simply because they believe nobody will be able to tell the difference? Do they plan this ahead of time as an orchestra? Or do you mean instrumentalists will do it on their own just to see if they can get away with it?


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## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

tdc said:


> Can you explain this further? You are suggesting that modern orchestras sometimes purposefully play the wrong notes, simply because they believe nobody will be able to tell the difference? Do they plan this ahead of time as an orchestra? Or do you mean instrumentalists will do it on their own just to see if they can get away with it?


KenOC himself linked to this article on Elliott Carter a little bit ago.

http://www.thenation.com/article/172392/magna-carter?page=0,2

"Throughout the frustrating stop-and-go of the first reading, Carter sat quietly behind his huge score, letting Boulez be the disciplinarian; as soon as the first break arrived, however, many of the players made a point of telling him how much they disliked his piece. *One violinist confided that he had been playing passages from Der Rosenkavalier because they were undetectable in the general din.* Slightly more conciliatory, a tuba player told Carter that he hated the music but appreciated that the score contained a big tuba solo. Carter turned the other cheek several times, though without ever apologizing for his music, and the rehearsal continued. Everyone knew that, no matter what they might think of the concerto, it and the three other works on the program-including Sergei Prokofiev's raucous and still challenging Scythian Suite-would have to be played to perfection by Thursday night."

This was in the 1970s.

In regards to the Bruckner (this is from La Grange's Mahler biography, vol. 1):

"The few who witnessed this performance have described the composer-conductor's lack of skill, the public's lack of understanding, *and the sabotage of the musicians, who played wrong notes on purpose and added passages of their own.*"

This was in the 1870s.

I am not trying to say that this is some kind of huge trend or that it is always done, but it has happened then and now.

I've also heard that on the Robert Craft recording of Le marteau sans maitre, the musicians couldn't deal with the score and just made things up at times.


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## tdc (Jan 17, 2011)

^^^ That is appalling Mahlerian. I honestly was oblivious about this kind of thing.  Thanks for the explanation.


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## obwan (Oct 24, 2011)

I bet that these 2 have already been mentioned but Martin Luther was a composer of hyms (one of which Mozart used as the duet of the 2 guards at the end of the magic flute), who of course started the reformation and of course Salieri who is best remembered for sopposedly plotting to ruin, (and possibly poison) Mozart.


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## EddieRUKiddingVarese (Jan 8, 2013)

No surprises there really- there muso's do you expeect them to play fair all the time, they get bored too!


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Mahlerian said:


> KenOC himself linked to this article on Elliott Carter a little bit ago.


If you're going to refer to me that way, please capitalize the "H" in "Himself." Thank you! :tiphat:


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## Guest (Feb 19, 2013)

BurningDesire said:


> Frank Zappa is more known for his weirdness, lyrics, and the names of his kids than his music. And this is tragic.


After all the fuss earlier about whether Zappa was a (great) composer of classical music, I was hoping to hear something of his in the classical music genre. Is this it? If so.... If not, I would be happy if you posted a link to something more classical.

My apologies for being so lazy.


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## EddieRUKiddingVarese (Jan 8, 2013)

What you have posted is Zappa doing early Jazz/ Rock - as he covered many genres and usually keep moving once he had do one- like an early beck (but better). 
He always considered himself a composer from an early age but also liked the chicks and rock and roll lifestyle and saw Rock as a way to make a buck. Try his early MOI stuff like Uncle Meat and WOITFTM for some compositional clues. 200 Motels and his later stuff with Boulez and the Modern Ensemble- as per below


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Boito was a composer himself but is probably best known as the librettist of Verdi's two greatest operas.


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