# Metal and Classical: What is the connection?



## Jupiter

Why is it that a lot of converts to classical music begin their journey in heavy metal? I could be overstating the case, of course, but this seems to be a pattern.

I've nothing against heavy metal (or any other kind of metal), but it would be more logical for popular music converts to come from the art rock/electronica genre (some of which can be admittedly "heavy"). Or am I not listening to metal "correctly"?


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## Curiosity

Certain genres of metal have some pseudo-classical borrowings I suppose. Furthermore alot of metalheads think it gives them some kind of "intellectual cred" to listen to classical music, elevating them firmly above the great unwashed who listen to "inferior" genres like rap and pop.

Every classical forum has the token metalhead who tries to convince everybody of the artistic genius of metal music, lol.


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## Aramis

> Why is it that a lot of converts to classical music begin their journey in heavy metal?


Because it's a little bit less crappy music than rest of popular stuff and therefore most of those who have predispositions to listen to good music but are not properly exposed to classical/jazz in their homes/schools often happen to begin their musical adventure with rock/metal music.


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## starthrower

It's not the case for myself. I can't stand metal music. I grew up with progressive rock, and Led Zeppelin. Yes, I know Zeppelin gets labeled an early metal band, but I disagree. They were coming from blues and folk influences.


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## norman bates

Jupiter said:


> Why is it that a lot of converts to classical music begin their journey in heavy metal? I could be overstating the case, of course, but this seems to be a pattern.
> 
> I've nothing against heavy metal (or any other kind of metal), but it would be more logical for popular music converts to come from the art rock/electronica genre (some of which can be admittedly "heavy"). Or am I not listening to metal "correctly"?


There are subgenres as epic, progressive or symphonic metal, and horrible but very influential guitarists like malmsteen who is a fan of paganini, bach, mozart etc (actually, he's probably more a fan of virtuosism). And it must be considered that metal music is a lot about impact and power, so often a listener of metal is attracted at first by pieces like Carmina Burana o Verdi's Dies irae


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## StlukesguildOhio

Why is it that a lot of converts to classical music begin their journey in heavy metal?

A desire to legitimatize their obvious poor taste in music by suggesting that there is some link between heavy metal and real music.


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## Guest

A lot of extreme metal bands (Morbid Angel, Necrophagist, Obscura, Decrepit Birth, etc.) write such chromatic music that it almost becomes atonal.


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## regressivetransphobe

A lot of people talk about the technicality of metal bands, but they're missing the point. Many of the artists on the more "extreme" side of the spectrum (please note "metal" encompasses a lot of glorified moron beer rock as well) are capital R Romantic in a very obvious sense, and write in a "narrative" way rather than cyclical like most rock (as in, the songwriting puts telling a story above logic). Second wave black metal (Burzum, Graveland, etc.) in particular is pure solipsism and obsession with the ancient.

Then again, Varg from Burzum is highly influenced by The Cure and Dead Can Dance, among other things. Genres are not clear-cut things with simple, strict relations. Metal=/=pure classical spirit, but there is a link.

A lot of metal is pure tripe, but the people who take potshots at the genre in general are insecure intellectual shams who only want peer approval by attacking an easy target. I feel sorry for them because I am sure they were bullied a lot as kids. By the way, I guarantee the guys in Morbid Angel have more honest, genuine appreciation for Mozart than anyone on this forum.


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## Ludders

I started out with rock music, but in my day nobody called it 'Metal', it was just 'Heavy Rock', or 'Hard Rock'.
To be honest, if i'm going to listen to anything in this vein at all, i'd rather listen to a good old-fashioned rock and roll band like Motorhead, or even the Pistols, than all that neo-classical cock-rock. 
I wouldn't want to listen to Malmsteen playing bits of Beethoven's 5th, anymore than i'd want to hear a Berlin Philharmoniker arrangement of _Anarchy in the UK_.
It's possible to like different kinds of music without needing to justify it by trying to connect them to each other.


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## Philip

i've been told that berlioz is the connection.


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## Iforgotmypassword

Heavy metal is a rapidly progressing genre. I believe that it is the next one to break away from popular music in the same way that Jazz has done. 
Jazz began as a popular music genre, but as it lost popularity it began to evolve, becoming more complex and sharing more and more similarities with classical music. If you look at the contemporary "classical" music of today it is almost inseperable from Jazz music. It is beginning to become difficult to tell where one genre ends and the other begins. The same can be said for electronic music, how many new music pieces feature a laptop as one of the instruments? A good little chunk of them I'd say.

That said, I believe that metal music is beginning it's progression into a serious genre. Of course you have to wipe away the grimey exterior of more poppy metal which obscures the true art within the genre but it's there. You may dislike or even hate what you hear, but there is no denying that it is valid music and that it is progressing quite rapidly. 

What is happening is those who have reached the bottom of the metaphorical "metal pool" are in search of something that has even deeper roots. They got into the genre for different reasons, but they've reached the bottom and want to delve deeper into music, thus they find classical music which has had thousands of years to evolve and mature and latch onto that. They notice distinct similarities between the serious metal music that they had listened to and the pieces of music within the "Classical music" genre and therefore want others to see the similarity. What they are seeing is partially the genuine artistic factor and and also the fact that many metal groups have been heavily influenced by the classical and Jazz genres.


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## Weston

For the record, I actually went the opposite direction and started out liking classical at about age 12, then at age 18 discovered progressive rock (and was overwhelmed) and from there went on to harder rock like Black Sabbath, Deep Purple, Uriah Heep, etc. I embraced some metal once it started being called that, but much of it is a lot of silly posturing to me. I do enjoy the ritual of it. It is a ritual of testosterone in a way. 

There are occasionally metal acts (Apocalyptica for instance) that try to make a kind of metal/classical alloy if you'll forgive the metaphor, with varying degrees of success. This can easily become very cheesy if not handled with some subtlety and expression. But is this really all that different from the Kronos Quartet playing Hendrix?

I reject the claims about how skillful classical musicians are compared to rock. Oh, please! Does anyone honestly think the triangle player in an orchestra has more skill than percussionist Neil Peart? Or does the timpanist even? Do most first violinists in most orchestras have more skill than someone who has devoted an entire lifetime to perfecting electric guitar like Robert Fripp? Somehow I doubt it.


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## Jupiter

Connections:


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## Iforgotmypassword

Weston said:


> I reject the claims about how skillful classical musicians are compared to rock. Oh, please! Does anyone honestly think the triangle player in an orchestra has more skill than percussionist Neil Peart? Or does the timpanist even? Do most first violinists in most orchestras have more skill than someone who has devoted an entire lifetime to perfecting electric guitar like Robert Fripp? Somehow I doubt it.


I do disagree with this to an extent, though at the same time I agree with it.

I honestly believe that classical musicians are the most technically and musically advanced in general. The skill and devotion necessary to play a classical acoustic instrument such as a cello or a violin (just to stick with the ones that I know the best) at the caliber that most of these professional musicians play at is a feat almost unmatchable by any other genre.

However this doesn't undermine any other musician's abilities or their instrument/genre. I think that Classical as a genre has become very elitist in the way that they see musicians and therefore judge on miniscule imperfections as opposed to the actual artistry or musicianship presented. Of course I do to a degree lump myself in with these "elitists" and believe that this level of ability should always be pursued by every musician, but in essence, I see no reason why this undermines an entire genre when if nothing else it just shows that it has room for improvement.


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## Ludders

Iforgotmypassword said:


> Heavy metal is a rapidly progressing genre. I believe that it is the next one to break away from popular music in the same way that Jazz has done.
> Jazz began as a popular music genre, but as it lost popularity it began to evolve, becoming more complex and sharing more and more similarities with classical music. If you look at the contemporary "classical" music of today it is almost inseperable from Jazz music. It is beginning to become difficult to tell where one genre ends and the other begins. The same can be said for electronic music, how many new music pieces feature a laptop as one of the instruments? A good little chunk of them I'd say.
> 
> That said, I believe that metal music is beginning it's progression into a serious genre. Of course you have to wipe away the grimey exterior of more poppy metal which obscures the true art within the genre but it's there. You may dislike or even hate what you hear, but there is no denying that it is valid music and that it is progressing quite rapidly.
> 
> What is happening is those who have reached the bottom of the metaphorical "metal pool" are in search of something that has even deeper roots. They got into the genre for different reasons, but they've reached the bottom and want to delve deeper into music, thus they find classical music which has had thousands of years to evolve and mature and latch onto that. They notice distinct similarities between the serious metal music that they had listened to and the pieces of music within the "Classical music" genre and therefore want others to see the similarity. What they are seeing is partially the genuine artistic factor and and also the fact that many metal groups have been heavily influenced by the classical and Jazz genres.


Fascinating theory.
I freely admit that i know next to nothing about current developments in 'Metal', but it's never struck me as harmonically sophisticated enough to be thought of on the same level as modern jazz or classical.
Having said that, my perception of where Metal and Classical meet, is limited to so called neo-classical guitarists like Malmsteem, who are technically very proficient but leave me completely cold.


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## Ludders

Weston said:


> I reject the claims about how skillful classical musicians are compared to rock. Oh, please! Does anyone honestly think the triangle player in an orchestra has more skill than percussionist Neil Peart? Or does the timpanist even? Do most first violinists in most orchestras have more skill than someone who has devoted an entire lifetime to perfecting electric guitar like Robert Fripp? Somehow I doubt it.


I'm perhaps with you on the percussion example, but i can't help but feel that trying to cross-compare the level of skill attained by people on different instruments in different genres presents difficulties.
To use your example of Robert Fripp: I could be wrong, but i suspect most first violinists, if presented with the notation for Robert Fripp's most difficult guitar solo, they could probably play it almost straight away. Could Fripp do the same thing with a difficult violin piece? I don't know.... Maybe his sight reading is really good, but i'm inclined to think he'd struggle.
If Fripp was to swap places with a good classical guitarist, i have an idea who would struggle the most to play each others material.

I'm not dissing Fripp. I think he's a great player within his own idiom. I just find it difficult to assess and compare levels of 'skill' across different genres and instruments.
Andres Segovia was reportedly amazed by Django Reinardt, and i'm not surprised! I love Django, but how does one compare the two? I know i'm moving away from 'Metal' here, but Stephane Grappelli and Yehudi Menuhin are another example. I doubt Stephane could've played what Menuhin could play, But Menuhin couldn't even improvise a solo on something as simple as 'Sweet Georgia Brown', and was in awe of Stephane's skills.
I suppose i'm just trying emphasise how difficult i find it to make cross-genre comparisons. More so when comparing differnt instruments in the mix as well.


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## Iforgotmypassword

Ludders said:


> Fascinating theory.
> I freely admit that i know next to nothing about current developments in 'Metal', but it's never struck me as harmonically sophisticated enough to be thought of on the same level as modern jazz or classical.
> Having said that, my perception of where Metal and Classical meet, is limited to so called neo-classical guitarists like Malmsteem, who are technically very proficient but leave me completely cold.


I totally agree about Malmsteen. Neoclassial metal is little more than glorified thrass/hair metal with a talented guitarist, but zero compositional skills. I'm not talking about people mimicking old composers' music on a heavily distorted guitar. I'm talking about people realizing the unique potential of the instrumentation and style that they utilize. I'll post a few examples of bands/musicians that I believe are at the front of the realization of these things. You might not like any of it, as it is a bit out there and certainly an acquired taste, but I believe it to be just as valid as some of the "contemporary classical" pieces that are out there and they're certainly breaking away from the "popular music" tag.

These first two are from the most recent album by a band called Sunn O))) and they implement classical instrumentation and vocals, but not in a gimicky way. They really place everything in perfectly... just prepare yourself, it's a very intense listen.









These next videos are all one piece, which is a collaboration between an electronic noize musician and a metal band by the name of Boris. It clocks in at about an hour long and honestly you won't be able to appreciate it unless you listen all the way through. It starts out with a light electronic background along with a slowly progressing nylon string guitar that eventually is overcome by the steadily increasing electronics and then is replaced by electric guitar drones and a bit of strategically placed electric guitar notes. This goes on steadily for a long time and then eventually fades out into a more passive resolution, a light electric guitar along with the electronic wash slowly fading into a drone, accompanying the guitar... Sorry if this description is sloppy but I'm in a hurry and want to post this... Here it is anyway.

















Lastly I'll post a Neurosis and an Opeth... Opeth being the most accessable and least boundary pushing of the videos but still good.


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## kv466

Weston said:


> For the record, I actually went the opposite direction and started out liking classical at about age 12, then at age 18 discovered progressive rock (and was overwhelmed) and from there went on to harder rock like Black Sabbath, Deep Purple, Uriah Heep, etc. I embraced some metal once it started being called that, but much of it is a lot of silly posturing to me. I do enjoy the ritual of it. It is a ritual of testosterone in a way.
> 
> There are occasionally metal acts (Apocalyptica for instance) that try to make a kind of metal/classical alloy if you'll forgive the metaphor, with varying degrees of success. This can easily become very cheesy if not handled with some subtlety and expression. But is this really all that different from the Kronos Quartet playing Hendrix?
> 
> I reject the claims about how skillful classical musicians are compared to rock. Oh, please! Does anyone honestly think the triangle player in an orchestra has more skill than percussionist Neil Peart? Or does the timpanist even? Do most first violinists in most orchestras have more skill than someone who has devoted an entire lifetime to perfecting electric guitar like Robert Fripp? Somehow I doubt it.


Same here...I liked classical way before any other music but am honest enough with myself to know good music when I hear it and to be in a classical bubble is not only ____ but it's _____!!! anyway, couldn't have said it better than Weston


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## Ludders

Iforgotmypassword said:


> I totally agree about Malmsteen. Neoclassial metal is little more than glorified thrass/hair metal with a talented guitarist, but zero compositional skills. I'm not talking about people mimicking old composers' music on a heavily distorted guitar. I'm talking about people realizing the unique potential of the instrumentation and style that they utilize. I'll post a few examples of bands/musicians that I believe are at the front of the realization of these things. You might not like any of it, as it is a bit out there and certainly an acquired taste, but I believe it to be just as valid as some of the "contemporary classical" pieces that are out there and they're certainly breaking away from the "popular music" tag.
> 
> These first two are from the most recent album by a band called Sunn O))) and they implement classical instrumentation and vocals, but not in a gimicky way. They really place everything in perfectly... just prepare yourself, it's a very intense listen.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> These next videos are all one piece, which is a collaboration between an electronic noize musician and a metal band by the name of Boris. It clocks in at about an hour long and honestly you won't be able to appreciate it unless you listen all the way through. It starts out with a light electronic background along with a slowly progressing nylon string guitar that eventually is overcome by the steadily increasing electronics and then is replaced by electric guitar drones and a bit of strategically placed electric guitar notes. This goes on steadily for a long time and then eventually fades out into a more passive resolution, a light electric guitar along with the electronic wash slowly fading into a drone, accompanying the guitar... Sorry if this description is sloppy but I'm in a hurry and want to post this... Here it is anyway.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Lastly I'll post a Neurosis and an Opeth... Opeth being the most accessable and least boundary pushing of the videos but still good.


Thanks for considered and knowledgable reply!
Just listening to the very first link right now, and it's far from anything like what i expected.

I've only touched the fringes of 20th century/contemporary classical music, but think i can understand where you're coming from in what you're saying.
Although, i would hesitate to call what i'm listening to right now; 'Metal'. The only similarity to my mind is the distorted guitar. Otherwise, it's quite unlike anything i've heard.

Ok, i've just got to the second link. Scared now....  :lol:
Fair play to you. It's not my bag, but i can't dismiss it as uninteresting. Although i can't help but feel that i should using certain substances whilst listening to it. 

Hmmm....... the middle Boris stuff is more sound FX than music, to my ears. Maybe it would sound better if each instrument was played in a different helicopter, or something. 
The last two.... ok i admit my attention span is reaching its limits. Suddenly i feel a great urge to go and listen to some Chopin or Faure. 

Seriously, your reply has been educational. Thanks.


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## Iforgotmypassword

Ludders said:


> Thanks for considered and knowledgable reply!
> Just listening to the very first link right now, and it's far from anything like what i expected.
> 
> I've only touched the fringes of 20th century/contemporary classical music, but think i can understand where you're coming from in what you're saying.
> Although, i would hesitate to call what i'm listening to right now; 'Metal'. The only similarity to my mind is the distorted guitar. Otherwise, it's quite unlike anything i've heard.
> 
> Ok, i've just got to the second link. Scared now....  :lol:
> Fair play to you. It's not my bag, but i can't dismiss it as uninteresting. Although i can't help but feel that i should using certain substances whilst listening to it.
> 
> Hmmm....... the middle Boris stuff is more sound FX than music, to my ears. Maybe it would sound better if each instrument was played in a different helicopter, or something.
> The last two.... ok i admit my attention span is reaching its limits. Suddenly i feel a great urge to go and listen to some Chopin or Faure.
> 
> Seriously, your reply has been educational. Thanks.


Thanks for taking the time to listen to the music I posted. 
It's definitely metal in definition, but I agree that I too am hesitant to label such music since music at this level shouldn't be labelled in my opinion, just taken in as what it is. Music is music.

I can understand that you don't particularly care for the second piece haha It's even a bit intense for me at moments, especially with those vocals, man...

Yeah, like I said, with the Boris piece you really can't jump strait into a particular section and understand what you're listening to... you really must listen to the piece in it's entirely to get anything out of it, and that can be a tiresome thing even for me. It's great stuff though. Haha I like the Stockhousen reference you slipped in there, I was thinking about the similarities myslelf today.

I can certainly understand your waning attention span, this stuff isn't exactly easy listening and some light classical is very refreshing afterwards.

I would reccomend listening to the last two when you've had a break just because they're pretty quality too... but you've already gotten my point, so either way.

Thanks a lot, I'm glad that you can appreciate my "musical ideals" or whatever you might call them. As you can probably tell, I love talking about music and where I think it's heading as well as sharing obscure music with people. 
Glad to be of some use.


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## jurianbai

waiiit...waiiit I arrived! how could you all discuss this extremely intelligence topic in my midnight time!!

Heavy metal??? LOL of course no connection to classical music, how can such strange music can connect to our highly blessed classical music eg. Bruckner, Wagner or Shostakovich.But, I think you mean Symphonic Metal, of course the name itself already speaks the connection. And of course also you mean Progressive Metal and the progressive chords, the real upgrade to the undate triad chord.

Waaaiiit.. here links to youtube to converted yourself or your classical friends for this fascinating music with only four members required. It's very hard to listen (harder than the atonal), but after listen with your heart, you will felt in love. Follows the drum (the one that actually sounds the best), the guitar shred (thinks of it as the soulful violin solo) and the power chorus.... (remember your day in Verdi? this is miles ahead).....

Hallelujaaaah...All Hail! Ameeeeeen!

Take your time to the journey of Metal (most videos more or less than 4'30" length!)

the intro:




can't you see the connection?? try to imagine the choruses without those 94cm hairs singers and you get the idea

the guitar riff:




remove the vocal now and you'll see Beethoven's 5th symphony is the same idea...see Dun Dun Dun Duuuun = Dun, Dun Dun Duuuuun! And its less repeated than Beethoven's riff.

the musicianship:




the connection? it takes grade 12th trained musician to play, same as Scriabin etudes!

the form:




can you connect your brain how the music evolved from the quite intro to blazzing voice in fours? it's not only connected to classical music, but the form is better, how can classical musician still write something in sonata form?

and finally the missing link of all:









 --- with explaination!

They played the SAME exactly notes! which is way better than Vitamin String Quartet playing Korn (which such disgrace to the string quartet form since it's waste so many google pages when I type string Quartet!) So, it is not vice versa when transforming one style to other, you know what mean that is!

good luck!!

.
.
.
.
.
.

and wait... should I post this in this thread.


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## Ludders

Iforgotmypassword said:


> Thanks a lot, I'm glad that you can appreciate my "musical ideals" or whatever you might call them. As you can probably tell, I love talking about music and where I think it's heading as well as sharing obscure music with people.
> Glad to be of some use.


Not at all.
It's always interesting to hear new and different things. There are obviously a lot of different things going on in Metal since i was last had any real knowledge of the genre over 20yrs ago.
Obviously we can't all like everything, (i personally can't get on with rap/hip-hop) but i like to try to keep an open mind, and like you, appreciate the discussion.


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## Weston

jurianbai said:


> Heavy metal??? LOL of course no connection to classical music, how can such strange music can connect to our highly blessed classical music eg. Bruckner, Wagner or Shostakovich.But, I think you mean Symphonic Metal, of course the name itself already speaks the connection. And of course also you mean Progressive Metal and the progressive chords, the real upgrade to the undate triad chord.


I wouldn't be so sure about all that. A lot of people consider the song "Black Sabbath" by the group Black Sabbath to be the first definitive metal piece (not all but enough to make it conventional wisdom). The band says they were just playing around with the Mars "riff" from Holst's The Planets but tried different notes. One combination used the tritone interval a.k.a _diabolus in musica_, and they all thought "Well, that's really weird. Let's use that." They may not have known exactly what they were doing or had the words for it, but there couldn't be a clearer connection with classical.


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## Ludders

Weston said:


> One combination used the tritone interval a.k.a _diabolus in musica_, and they all thought "Well, that's really weird. Let's use that."


I think the Mars 'riff' actually does employ the tritone interval, doesn't it?
In which case they copied it exactly. (Well not rhythmically of course)

As for the Paganini shredders above, Eat this metalheads.


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## Ludders

I find it somewhat ironic that i joined this forum yesterday to learn more about, and share my love for classical music.
And i've ended up in a discussion about Heavy Metal, and have spent half the night revisiting Iforgotmypassword's Sunn O))) Youtube links. :lol:
Especially that first track: 'Alice', which is strangely addictive!


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## jurianbai

Ludders said:


> As for the Paganini shredders above, Eat this metalheads.


Oh yeah..... how about we reduced the string:




 :devil:


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## Iforgotmypassword

Ludders said:


> I find it somewhat ironic that i joined this forum yesterday to learn more about, and share my love for classical music.
> And i've ended up in a discussion about Heavy Metal, and have spent half the night revisiting Iforgotmypassword's Sunn O))) Youtube links. :lol:
> Especially that first track: 'Alice', which is strangely addictive!


Haha isn't it wonderful how true music defys genre? 


jurianbai said:


> Oh yeah..... how about we reduced the string:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> :devil:


 That is impressive to say the least


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## Ludders

jurianbai said:


> Oh yeah..... how about we reduced the string:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> :devil:




Jurianbai wins the thread!


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## Metalkitsune

Because it's very hard to play,try doing tapping or such and making it sound right.


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## Curiosity

Anyone noticed that there's always a token metal dude trying to convince everybody of some kind of link between metal/classical on every classical YT video?


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## Sqaarg

First time poster here, but I thought people might find this interesting:
















The second track was recorded live, and played on one single instrument, a Chapman stick. For the non live version:






It's a great mix of fusion, rock, metal and classical music. The classical elements aren't as forefront as the other influences, but they are definitely there, in terms of use of themes, form, compositional techniques (the first track features an augmentation cannon and another track on this album heavily features the BACH-motif, for example) ,varied textures (as far as anything non-classical concerned, that is) and polyphonic material.

The bass, guitar, Chapman stick player and composer of this group, Sean Malone, also made arrangements for solo Chapman stick of two Bach pieces:


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## goingunder

Epica is probably the closest in my collection. Symphonic metal on the heavier side. Pretty much uses a full orchestra/choir rather than just strings keyboard, especially on the longer songs in the latest album.




..
And this one divided into 5 movements


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## Philip

i've changed my mind, the connection is actually scales


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## Sqaarg

goingunder said:


> Epica is probably the closest in my collection. Symphonic metal on the heavier side. Pretty much uses a full orchestra/choir rather than just strings keyboard, especially on the longer songs in the latest album.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ..
> And this one divided into 5 movements


Just because a band uses 'classical' instruments, doesn't make it anything close to classical music.


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## Charon

I think there's at least two different reasons why you find so many metalheads "finding" links to classical music.

1. As many have already suggested in this thread, I think that some metalheads try to draw links between metal music and classical music and then go out trying to convince people that they exist, elevating the stature of metal music to that of classical music. Most of the time when people do this, many of the links that they draw are very superficial ones pertaining to things like:

- instrumentation (ZOMGZ there's a orchestra behind Epica and Nightwish!) 
- simple techniques that are employed in the music (like pedal point or collateral parts in the guitars). 

It's often been said that music for an orchestra is not necessarily classical music. Also, just because there's collateral parts in the music of dark tranquillity, in flames, obscura et al, doesn't make them classical.

Adherents to this philosophy are those who are looking to "legitimize" their music tastes, by showing that metal music has intellectual qualities on par with that of classical music. 

More recently I've seen a crowd in the metal community forming that denies such links between metal to classical music, generally to prevent these "pseudo-intellectuals" from promoting metal in this way.



2. On the other hand, I also find that some metalheads find links that do exist and understand where the links stop. For example, in some metal, simple guitar chord progressions are abandoned and multiple guitar melodies/riffs hold different rhythms that complement each other. So, counterpoint is present in some degree. But where are all those fugues? This crowd would acknowledge that the counterpoint employed in most metal is simpler in form, and that it is found in a much more complex form in classical music. Counterpoint is also employed in other popular music, too.

In some metal, there are narrative and dramatic aspects that are brought out through use of classical techniques. Sometimes modulations, changes in harmony and rhythmic aspects are found in metal songs that seem to produce a dramatic or narrative effect.

There's also a lot of chromaticism in some metal, which sometimes makes it sound very modal, progressive and modern, but i wouldn't go so far as to say atonal. Most metal is structured around riffs that repeat and there is generally an underlying tonality for them. I listen to a lot of metal but I can't think of one instance in metal where a 12-tone row is employed.


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## KaerbEmEvig

I think that metal is following the steps of jazz - slowly departing from pop music. That's it - but that's already a lot. Just listen to Opeth's latest album.


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## goingunder

I do realize it is not classical, but I don't really know how to define classical. Ok, can someone tell me that & the difference between classical and movie music (soundtrack)?

I find complexity in both metal and classical; just that they are both thought-out (doesn't apply to every metal band for sure). That's why I link them.


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## Charon

KaerbEmEvig said:


> I think that metal is following the steps of jazz - slowly departing from pop music. That's it - but that's already a lot. Just listen to Opeth's latest album.


I think I agree with this. There are a lot of metal bands that seem to be striving for something a little bit deeper than most other pop music. This could be said about many genres, but I see a certain dedication in the metal genre that I don't see so much in other genres.


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## Charon

goingunder said:


> I do realize it is not classical, but I don't really know how to define classical. Ok, can someone tell me that & the difference between classical and movie music (soundtrack)?
> 
> I find complexity in both metal and classical; just that they are both thought-out (doesn't apply to every metal band for sure). That's why I link them.


There are huge differences between classical and movie soundtrack music. The instrumentation may be similar (orchestra, for example), but the musical material is generally completely different. It could be argued that movie music simply provides an "atmosphere". The movie action provides the narration, while the music provides part of the setting and atmosphere. This is why popular music fits well for so many movies made today. In classical music, you have the music providing everything... narration, drama, action, setting, mood, atmosphere... etc. (with the exception of opera). This is why movie soundtracks and classical music are also structured in completely different ways.

The complexity of metal I find to be more superficial in a way than the complexity of classical music, and I don't mean to be condescending when I say that... I play in a metal band! It's perhaps fair to say that classical music has complexity on more levels. For example, in most metal there is melodic complexity created through the execution of meandering, heavily, chromatic riffs, but they are often very regular and repeat with only slight variations, forming a really complex ostinato in some way. There is also some degree of harmonic complexity and interesting treatment of dissonance in some metal music. But there is rarely any tonal complexity or dramatic complexity, and the rhythmic complexity is generally limited.


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## kv466

If there is such a connection, it's a little song called 'To Live Is To Die'.


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## Thonolan

KaerbEmEvig said:


> I think that metal is following the steps of jazz - slowly departing from pop music. That's it - but that's already a lot. Just listen to Opeth's latest album.


Well, that already started so many years ago. You don't need to listen to Opeth's latest album (which is not even metal, btw, it's more in the lines of progressive rock) to notice it. Back in the late 80's some metal bands already started to introduce some complex songwriting and more advanced harmonies. Think of Voivod or Fates Warning for instace. Even some of the biggest, more mainstream metal bands like Iron Maiden or Metallica developed some slight progressive tendences back then, with unusual song structores and long compositions. And then you have the birth of the great progressive and technical bands during the early 90's: Dream Theater, Symphony X, Cynic, Atheist, Conception, Death (late albums), Shadow Gallery, Meshuggah, etc. Some of the most complex and adventurous metal music was already done in the mid 90's. Therion didn't experiment too much with song structures but introduced classical choirs and orchestrations in metal - something that had already been hinted on some Celtic Frost albums but Therion fully developed. Emperor wrote some of the most forward-thinking metal music as well, especially on later albums (but that was more than 10 years ago).

That said, I think that the vast majority of complex and adventurous metal bands tend to rely more on jazz rather than classical when using advanced harmonies. And that usually delivers better results, imo. Most of the "classical" attempts by metal bands are pretty lame - think of those boring, predictable orchestral intros or interludes that some bands make, trying to sound epic and grand, I guess (which most of the times are actually closer to movie soundtracks than classical music). I think Symphony X is one of the very few metal bands that I feel they know something about classical music and know how to use this knowledge in order to create some great music. Listen to songs like "The Divine Wings of Tragedy", "The Accolade" or the album "V". Those are among the very few cases outside classical that bring me the feeling of grandeur and timelessness of, let's say, a big orchestral work.

There's definitely a connection in some bands, but not in the genre as a whole. The roots of metal music are in blues rock and some punk (e.g.: thrash metal), but some ambitious metal bands took 70's progressive rock as a main source of inspiration, and the birth of progressive rock was undoubtedly influended by classical music. When prog rock started to develop, sometimes it relied on classical structures to write long songs way beyond the typical pop/rock format. You can identify the sonata form in some Yes tracks, or Emerson, Lake & Palmer. Some of these forms were also used by metal bands years later.

Beyond the more specific structural and harmonic analysis you may see some connection in the sense that some (and I'm saying some, not all) metal music is so complex and has such serious intentions that you really need to listen to it several times and with maximum attention to get all the details and fully understand it, something that is usually associated to classical. But you can say the same about some prog rock and jazz as well, and some developed forms of other genres.

I love metal (well, not as a whole, but I truly love some metal bands) and I don't need to make any connections with classical music because, as much as I love it, I have never thought of classical as the highest form of music. There's just not such thing to me. It's just music that I enjoy inmensely, but I don't have any sort of preference over some non-classical music I also enjoy.


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## neoshredder

One type of music isn't enough for most. Metalheads want to branch out into more creative stuff. Thus, their intrigue for classical music. Plus they sound great together. Classical complexity with electric guitar, bass, and drums.


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## mtmailey

truth be told classical music is very complexed so people leave it.I was listening to SCHUBERT symphony no.8 allegro moderato- he used some fugal material with polyphony,homophony and ostinato.Most people have no idea what i mean.Metal is different and quite simple-they have like 4 guys making songs about various thing which is easy.Writing music for a orchestra is not easy at all.


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## Iforgotmypassword

^ This is true, but should the intellectual value of music be associated solely upon it's complexity? Look at minimalist compositions. They in my mind are just as, if not more intellectually stimulating as a romantic or classical piece, but they're not commonly all that complex in composition. 
What about string quartets? Trios? Solo works? Still equally intellectually composed and valid, but not taking the same amount of complexity that is required for a full on symphony orchestra.


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## skalpel

I have to disagree with the post that singled out metal as a rapidly progressing genre that will 'soon break way from popularity like jazz did'. It seems odd to me that you could single out one type of music in this way. There are, and have always been, rapid progressions and evolutions in sound that diverge from popular music in all genres.
I'd also argue that metal actually is less flexible and has more hurdles in its path than many other styles; it is much harder to convincingly combine other genres with metal than forms of music with less strict requirements to fit their definitions. Jazz, for example, has much more flexibility in terms of overall sound and even instruments used, once you've begun to stretch metal into new realms it can only go so far before it is no longer classed as metal.


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## Iforgotmypassword

skalpel said:


> I have to disagree with the post that singled out metal as a rapidly progressing genre that will 'soon break way from popularity like jazz did'. It seems odd to me that you could single out one type of music in this way. There are, and have always been, rapid progressions and evolutions in sound that diverge from popular music in all genres.
> I'd also argue that metal actually is less flexible and has more hurdles in its path than many other styles; it is much harder to convincingly combine other genres with metal than forms of music with less strict requirements to fit their definitions. Jazz, for example, has much more flexibility in terms of overall sound and even instruments used, once you've begun to stretch metal into new realms it can only go so far before it is no longer classed as metal.


I agree with what you're saying to a point. Many genres have progressed and broken from the mainstream just as metal is doing and I believe that many more will do so in the future. I was speaking about metal in specific because it happens to be the topic at hand. The same could be said about some bluegrass that I've heard or Indian folk music perhaps. Maybe you're right that I can't single out any particular genre persay since all music is essentially just music and any style, technique and/or instrumentation can be used to an effective end.

Where I differ is in the semantics of your second statement. When I speak about metal, I tend to include various rock bands as well since metal is essentially rock music when all is said and done. I may have mislead readers by refering to it all as "metal" but I would include a variety of rock bands which I consider to be "good" as well. 
Now this said, I wonder whether you did or didn't listen to the examples that I posted because they were relatively good examples in my mind of Rock/Metal music being smoothly and effectively combined with other genres (if you'd like to call them that). Instrumentally, rock music has already made room for multiple other instruments aside from the basic guitar, bass, drum set up. A good example of this would be Kayo dot, which uses a pretty vast array of instrumentation within their compositions. According to wikidpedia this is the current line-up with the instruments listed:
Toby Driver - vocals, guitar, cello, bass guitar, baritone guitar, keyboards, clarinet
Mia Matsumiya - violin, viola, vocals, guitar, synth bass, mellotron
David Bodie - drums (Time of Orchids, MATH)
Terran Olson - keys, clarinet, saxophone
Daniel Means - saxophone, clarinet, guitar









Behold...The Arctopus incorporates Jazz style pretty will into a very heavy metal mentality. One of the guitarists plays one of these, which I find to be kinda cool:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warr_Guitars

Anyways, here is an example of that: 




The point here isn't whether you enjoy the music or not though. It's that metal bands are already pushing the boundaries and I don't think that they're finding that the genre itself is preventing furthur experimentation.

Now lastly I both agree and disagree with your final sentence. I agree completely that at some point metal music will progress to the point of no longer being metal. I don't think that this is due to the limitedness of the genre however. If you look at any genre: Classical, Jazz, Rock, Bluegrass... any of them. At a certain point one can't truly classify them. They just simply are. I feel that this is true about all great music. Human beings attempt to classify everything, but in the end music is music and there are only two kinds... the good kind and the bad kind, but that's getting into a whole other discussion. If you want to talk about that you can go to a thread I made a while back. 
Here's the link just in case you're interested: 
http://www.talkclassical.com/13374-what-classical-music.html


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## Lukecash12

regressivetransphobe said:


> A lot of people talk about the technicality of metal bands, but they're missing the point. Many of the artists on the more "extreme" side of the spectrum (please note "metal" encompasses a lot of glorified moron beer rock as well) are capital R Romantic in a very obvious sense, and write in a "narrative" way rather than cyclical like most rock (as in, the songwriting puts telling a story above logic). Second wave black metal (Burzum, Graveland, etc.) in particular is pure solipsism and obsession with the ancient.
> 
> Then again, Varg from Burzum is highly influenced by The Cure and Dead Can Dance, among other things. Genres are not clear-cut things with simple, strict relations. Metal=/=pure classical spirit, but there is a link.
> 
> A lot of metal is pure tripe, but the people who take potshots at the genre in general are insecure intellectual shams who only want peer approval by attacking an easy target. I feel sorry for them because I am sure they were bullied a lot as kids. By the way, I guarantee the guys in Morbid Angel have more honest, genuine appreciation for Mozart than anyone on this forum.


Hear, hear! We have some Mozart lovers here, but a while ago people were poking fun at Mozart. I don't know about those fellas, but I think I can say I like Mozart as much as them, given I've listened to every damned cantata and minuet that no one else bothers to listen to.


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## skalpel

Iforgotmypassword said:


> I agree with what you're saying to a point. Many genres have progressed and broken from the mainstream just as metal is doing and I believe that many more will do so in the future. I was speaking about metal in specific because it happens to be the topic at hand. The same could be said about some bluegrass that I've heard or Indian folk music perhaps. Maybe you're right that I can't single out any particular genre persay since all music is essentially just music and any style, technique and/or instrumentation can be used to an effective end.
> 
> Where I differ is in the semantics of your second statement. When I speak about metal, I tend to include various rock bands as well since metal is essentially rock music when all is said and done. I may have mislead readers by refering to it all as "metal" but I would include a variety of rock bands which I consider to be "good" as well.
> Now this said, I wonder whether you did or didn't listen to the examples that I posted because they were relatively good examples in my mind of Rock/Metal music being smoothly and effectively combined with other genres (if you'd like to call them that). Instrumentally, rock music has already made room for multiple other instruments aside from the basic guitar, bass, drum set up. A good example of this would be Kayo dot, which uses a pretty vast array of instrumentation within their compositions. According to wikidpedia this is the current line-up with the instruments listed:
> Toby Driver - vocals, guitar, cello, bass guitar, baritone guitar, keyboards, clarinet
> Mia Matsumiya - violin, viola, vocals, guitar, synth bass, mellotron
> David Bodie - drums (Time of Orchids, MATH)
> Terran Olson - keys, clarinet, saxophone
> Daniel Means - saxophone, clarinet, guitar
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Behold...The Arctopus incorporates Jazz style pretty will into a very heavy metal mentality. One of the guitarists plays one of these, which I find to be kinda cool:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warr_Guitars
> 
> Anyways, here is an example of that:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The point here isn't whether you enjoy the music or not though. It's that metal bands are already pushing the boundaries and I don't think that they're finding that the genre itself is preventing furthur experimentation.
> 
> Now lastly I both agree and disagree with your final sentence. I agree completely that at some point metal music will progress to the point of no longer being metal. I don't think that this is due to the limitedness of the genre however. If you look at any genre: Classical, Jazz, Rock, Bluegrass... any of them. At a certain point one can't truly classify them. They just simply are. I feel that this is true about all great music. Human beings attempt to classify everything, but in the end music is music and there are only two kinds... the good kind and the bad kind, but that's getting into a whole other discussion. If you want to talk about that you can go to a thread I made a while back.
> Here's the link just in case you're interested:
> http://www.talkclassical.com/13374-what-classical-music.html


Thanks for the well written response.

With regards to your examples in an earlier post, I actually have music by the majority of the artists you recommended and I think several of them are very good too. Perhaps I didn't properly articulate what I meant properly because a lot of what you said towards the end there, semantics regarding genre titles etc., is an absolute agreement with my point of view too.

I didn't mean to suggest that it wasn't possible to blend ideas from other musical forms with metal, moreso that metal's definition requirements are limiting it in how far out it can expand. I'll pull up jazz as an example again, since you used it in the first post I replied to. With jazz you can chop and change every single instrument in use. You can remove every instrument from a standard jazz band and replace it with even the most bizarre or unusual instruments, be they electronic, acoustic or whatever, and then have the band perform something soft, loud, slow or fast. It could still remain 'jazz' because it has a certain semblance even when stretched far beyond the reaches of convention. With metal, if you remove all of the guitars, bass and drums, replace them with simply a clarinet, a flute and a harp, then have the band play nothing but soft music, is it metal anymore?

I agree, there have been some very interesting attempts at fusing all sorts of sound into metal and long may it continue, but I think when compared to many other genres metal actually has a handicap when it comes to evolving due to its very specific requirements to fulfil its own nature.

Thanks for the link to your other thread too, I like reading and discussing the idea of 'genres' and just what value they do or don't have.


----------



## Iforgotmypassword

skalpel said:


> Thanks for the well written response.
> 
> With regards to your examples in an earlier post, I actually have music by the majority of the artists you recommended and I think several of them are very good too. Perhaps I didn't properly articulate what I meant properly because a lot of what you said towards the end there, semantics regarding genre titles etc., is an absolute agreement with my point of view too.
> 
> I didn't mean to suggest that it wasn't possible to blend ideas from other musical forms with metal, moreso that metal's definition requirements are limiting it in how far out it can expand. I'll pull up jazz as an example again, since you used it in the first post I replied to. With jazz you can chop and change every single instrument in use. You can remove every instrument from a standard jazz band and replace it with even the most bizarre or unusual instruments, be they electronic, acoustic or whatever, and then have the band perform something soft, loud, slow or fast. It could still remain 'jazz' because it has a certain semblance even when stretched far beyond the reaches of convention. With metal, if you remove all of the guitars, bass and drums, replace them with simply a clarinet, a flute and a harp, then have the band play nothing but soft music, is it metal anymore?
> 
> I agree, there have been some very interesting attempts at fusing all sorts of sound into metal and long may it continue, but I think when compared to many other genres metal actually has a handicap when it comes to evolving due to its very specific requirements to fulfil its own nature.
> 
> Thanks for the link to your other thread too, I like reading and discussing the idea of 'genres' and just what value they do or don't have.


I can see where you're coming from, and I agree that to a point one must redefine what metal even is before it can evolve a certain point. I feel that there are certain things, mentalities and techniques that have origionated from rock and metal music that can be implimented into more artistic genres. Some examples would be heavy usage of amplification, distortion, certain harsh vocal techniques and such. John Zorn for example experimented a lot with grindcore, which I think is cool.
One example of a metal band that is solely labelled metal for the vocal delivery would be right here:




Were it not for the vocals, I would personally classify this as classical guitar music. 
Sunn O))) doesn't really consider themselves "Metal", they consider themselves "Sonic, amplified guitar music", but they're labelled as Doom/Drone metal. 
Honestly, I'll concede that for the most part you're right. Jazz has something that metal does not, but I think that this something was built and developed over time. I feel like jazz is essentially a new art music philosophy which is essentially right alongside "contemporary classical" nowadays. If you look at a lot of jazz composers, they often compose classical compositions and vice versa.

In the end, yes much of the more advanced metal will likely cease to be what we see as metal, just as much of the jazz has ceased to be what jazz origionally started as. Also, it will almost certainly be rock music in general, not just metal that will evolve in this manner, possibly making metal obsolete? Possibly not. I don't really know honestly, just thinking out loud haha

Thanks to you for your reply as well.


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## violadude

YA! Kayo Dot is awesome!!

Sorry, I didn't even read what you guys were talking about, but just thought I should interject my feelings about the aforementioned band.


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## Iforgotmypassword

violadude said:


> YA! Kayo Dot is awesome!!
> 
> Sorry, I didn't even read what you guys were talking about, but just thought I should interject my feelings about the aforementioned band.


I want to get an album of theirs... do you have a recommendation as to which one I should get?


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## violadude

Iforgotmypassword said:


> I want to get an album of theirs... do you have a recommendation as to which one I should get?


no lol I just heard some of their stuff on youtube....


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## Iforgotmypassword

violadude said:


> no lol I just heard some of their stuff on youtube....


yeah same here... I guess the best place to start is with their first album then.


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## Philip

Iforgotmypassword and regressivetransphobe, you should make a dedicated thread for the more obscure genres and provide youtube links like you did here and the other metal thread, without necessarily labeling it "metal". this would be a great way to discover new artists for the lazy like myself

Edit: there you go: http://www.talkclassical.com/16801-obscure-non-classical-genres.html


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## Oskaar

mtmailey said:


> Metal is different and quite simple-they have like 4 guys making songs about various thing which is easy.Writing music for a orchestra is not easy at all.


I dont find it very usefull putting different genres up againsteach other, unless you have a genuine respect for each genre. Writing music for an orchestra may not be easy. Making a hit or a remarkable work for a demanding crowd, may not be easy eather. Metal, or rock and pop in general dont sell if it is not something special with it. Finding that key in a totally different marked is difficult.

Rock bands dont have the culural money support that classical music have in many countries. So they have to find a key.... That is not easy! I dont know much about metal, and for the most I dont like it. But people do when it is good. And beeing good is not *easy* that is a very provoking statement, and lacks respect and knowledge of different art forms.


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## Metalkitsune

Of course IMHO, it's harder to play classical music. There is part of a interview with Ritchie Blackmore where he says that Renaissance music is harder to play than the blues.


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## pasoleati

Maybe very slightly off-topic, but I wonder more often than not that why the "elite" (no offense intended) seems to love jazz most of the non-classical genres, when I feel that jazz is the one genre most apart from classical? The jazz-fans I personally know of are certainly more home in some beer stenched pub listening to pop than with classical. If I had to sum up the basics of classical and jazz with fewest words, my definition of classical would be "Music that is all about purely played music" whereas jazz definition would be "Music that is all about inpurely played show".


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## neoshredder

The complexity of Jazz and Classical are both very high. Rock is usually simpler in comparison.


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## starthrower

Hmm? An awful lot of assumptions being made here. What the heck is "inpurely [sic] played show" ? I'm a jazz fan, and I don't hang out in "beer stenched pubs"

As far as rock usually being simpler than jazz goes, a lot of jazz is straight 4/4 time. Have you ever listened to rock bands like Thinking Plague, Gentle Giant, Henry Cow, National Health, Frank Zappa, King Crimson? It's pretty complex stuff.


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## neoshredder

starthrower said:


> Hmm? An awful lot of assumptions being made here. What the heck is "inpurely [sic] played show" ? I'm a jazz fan, and I don't hang out in "beer stenched pubs"
> 
> As far as rock usually being simpler than jazz goes, a lot of jazz is straight 4/4 time. Have you ever listened to rock bands like Thinking Plague, Gentle Giant, Henry Cow, National Health, Frank Zappa, King Crimson? It's pretty complex stuff.


Have you heard Jazz fusion? How about the pieces where the metronome is at like 200 beats per minutes. And yeah Rock has some complex music as well. But I'd say Jazz wins in the Complexity department overall.


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## RadiGen

Weston said:


> I reject the claims about how skillful classical musicians are compared to rock. Oh, please! Does anyone honestly think the triangle player in an orchestra has more skill than percussionist Neil Peart? Or does the timpanist even? Do most first violinists in most orchestras have more skill than someone who has devoted an entire lifetime to perfecting electric guitar like Robert Fripp? Somehow I doubt it.


(I don't listen a lot to metal, but rather, I prefer Classic Rock, like Led Zeppelin, so I hope you'll excuse me for the intrusion, but i'd like to comment on this one)
If by skill, you refer to technicality, then you are indeed right, most guitarists are more skilled when compared to the average violinist on an orchestra, however, Classical was almost never about technicality to begin with, I think Classical is more about skills in composition, orchestration, and of course (but preferably less) the conductor's skill in imagining a good interpretation, and at times even tweaking a composition
Also note (though I might be wrong), that, I think, there are classical musicians that are more virtuosic than a rock virtuoso, most notably Pianists


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## mud

Vivaldi composed some hot licks...


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## starthrower

neoshredder said:


> Have you heard Jazz fusion? How about the pieces where the metronome is at like 200 beats per minutes. And yeah Rock has some complex music as well. But I'd say Jazz wins in the Complexity department overall.


The pure speed element doesn't impress me. I'm interested in good compositions and inventive playing. And yes, I have all of the jazz/rock fusion records. I used to do a radio show where I played all of that stuff.

And I've been fortunate to see some great concerts by people like Chick Corea, Allan Holdsworth, Pat Metheny, Al Di Meola, etc. In fact, Di Meola, who is not really a jazz player has been a big influence on some of the speed metal players, as well as the guitarists in the Umphrey's McGee band.


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## Lukecash12

RadiGen said:


> Also note (though I might be wrong), that, I think, there are classical musicians that are more virtuosic than a rock virtuoso, most notably Pianists


Trust me, you're not. I doubt Malmsteen, Batio, and their type have turned technique into a science the way that piano pedagogues have. They don't have hundreds of years of pedagogy behind them.

For starters, the technical demands of metal compositions aren't even close in diversity to that of classical compositions. And the techniques that they do seem to excel in to some extent, are of the simpler variety. Metal guitarists don't make the leaps and switches in hand positions that a classical guitarist or pianist would. Not to mention that metal musicians have a reputation for playing at either three quarters or two thirds the speed of their recordings, depending on the band. Dragonforce earned their nickname of "Studioforce" that way, by playing much slower at concerts.

Also, there are many techniques that metal musicians couldn't even begin to imitate because of some basic elements of their music. Because of their style of music and the fact that they are using electrical instruments, they wouldn't even begin to understand the technical issue of limiting sound output. Pianists have to achieve an exquisite sense of touch, and oftentimes resort to techniques such as playing with flat fingers, or moving their wrists in such a way as to make involved passages less stressful on the hands, to produce soft dynamics while playing involved passages.

By the way, I'm surprised that some impressive jazz guitarists have been mentioned, without the name of Shawn Lane being mentioned.


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## lukecubed

I don't get the sense that anyone in this thread making blanket statements about how classical musicians are de facto superior to musicians in metal have listened to much metal or understand what they're listening to at all. If Yngwie is your gold standard for metal musicianship then that's pretty limited. Classical obviously has more excellent musicianship--there is an enormous financial and educative structure dedicated towards churning out these players. Nothing comparable exists for anything other than jazz. But to insist that there no virtuosos within another genre, or that those virtuosos are of a lesser quality, or that those virtuosos have not elevated the technical and expressive possibilities of their instruments, just comes across as pretty shallow. There are virtuosos in bluegrass and DJing and laptop music too, but if you lack context and frame of reference they're easy to overlook or denigrate...


----------



## Lukecash12

lukecubed said:


> I don't get the sense that anyone in this thread making blanket statements about how classical musicians are de facto superior to musicians in metal have listened to much metal or understand what they're listening to at all. If Yngwie is your gold standard for metal musicianship then that's pretty limited. Classical obviously has more excellent musicianship--there is an enormous financial and educative structure dedicated towards churning out these players. Nothing comparable exists for anything other than jazz. But to insist that there no virtuosos within another genre, or that those virtuosos are of a lesser quality, or that those virtuosos have not elevated the technical and expressive possibilities of their instruments, just comes across as pretty shallow. There are virtuosos in bluegrass and DJing and laptop music too, but if you lack context and frame of reference they're easy to overlook or denigrate...


I didn't make very many blanket statements, and I have listened to many more metal virtuosos than Malmsteen or Batio.


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## mud

How about _a cappella_? :clap:


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## millionrainbows

I think the connection between Metal and Classical is based on archetypes of our human psychology, which, as adolescents, is still in the volatile forming stages of identity. 

Western classical music has its roots on Gregorian Chant, which used parallel fifths and fourths, just like Metal riffs.;

Metal music is "pre-harmonic," like Gregorian Chant, meaning that it is based on "riffs" which are not harmonic chord progressions in the normal sense, but more melodic-based; the pentatonic scale is used a lot, and I've noticed the emergence of more tritones (the so-called "Devil's interval") and the use of the diminished scale, or half-whole diminished scale;

Those creepy hoods the monks wore, and their secret monasteries, in which they were brewing their ale by the barrel, remind us of a "secret brotherhood" into which one must be initiated by rites of passage;

It's not a far stretch to connect this Church-based music with its polar opposite archetype, the Devil and the occult.; some Metal bands seem like they wish to embody this opposite, with names like "Deicide" and "Cradle of Filth;"

It's all about the forces of darkness and light battling within the adolescent's fevered brain, as he fights the forces that would kill his spirit.


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## Arsakes

Curiosity said:


> Certain genres of metal have some pseudo-classical borrowings I suppose. Furthermore alot of metalheads think it gives them some kind of "intellectual cred" to listen to classical music, elevating them firmly above the great unwashed who listen to "inferior" genres like rap and pop.
> 
> Every classical forum has the token metalhead who tries to convince everybody of the artistic genius of metal music, lol.


The best answer.

The other answer is 'The Masons'!

Well, If you want to constantly praise your glorious Metal music and consider it as equal and artistic as classic music get back to your hundreds of Metal websites/forums. Keep these few classic music forums away from these maniacs and/or satanists plz.


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## Soyeah

millionrainbows said:


> I think the connection between Metal and Classical is based on archetypes of our human psychology, which, as adolescents, is still in the volatile forming stages of identity.
> 
> Western classical music has its roots on Gregorian Chant, which used parallel fifths and fourths, just like Metal riffs.;
> 
> Metal music is "pre-harmonic," like Gregorian Chant, meaning that it is based on "riffs" which are not harmonic chord progressions in the normal sense, but more melodic-based; the pentatonic scale is used a lot, and I've noticed the emergence of more tritones (the so-called "Devil's interval") and the use of the diminished scale, or half-whole diminished scale;
> 
> Those creepy hoods the monks wore, and their secret monasteries, in which they were brewing their ale by the barrel, remind us of a "secret brotherhood" into which one must be initiated by rites of passage;
> 
> It's not a far stretch to connect this Church-based music with its polar opposite archetype, the Devil and the occult.; some Metal bands seem like they wish to embody this opposite, with names like "Deicide" and "Cradle of Filth;"
> 
> It's all about the forces of darkness and light battling within the adolescent's fevered brain, as he fights the forces that would kill his spirit.


Deicide and Cradle of Filth really aren't seen as pinnacles of Metal by anybody who's heard 'real' Extreme Metal.


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## neoshredder

mud said:


> Vivaldi composed some hot licks...


Greatest metal covers of Vivaldi ever.


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## mud

neoshredder said:


> Greatest metal covers of Vivaldi ever.


I agree, and judging by how many people on YouTube tried to cover that first one (and mostly failed), it wasn't easy to get right! And the one man band is impressive too.


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## redyellow

Let's see. Where to start off.

Metal music, I believe, started off in the UK during the 60s, and went the American, slightly later on. But the thing about Metal nowadays, is the fact that it is an expanding genre, filled of sub-genres, and mixed-sub-genres, that the genre of metal music has already broke out from it's classifications towards a pop-culture music genre. Metal's evolution still continues today, fusing together with different genres of music.

Where I'm getting at is that Metal does have it's historic connects with classical, but also with blues and rock. The division between Blues influenced Metal music to Classically influenced Metal music would be with the continent of such origins. North America, being the founding continent of Blues music, obviously would bring about "Blues influenced Heavy Metal" where as Europe would being "Classically influenced Metal" (Of course, there are some exceptions to each). Metal kind of takes in ideas, new ideas, old ideas, mixes them together to see what goes well and what doesn't. 

Classical for instance, specifically with baroque, brought on a mass amount of "shredders". Guitarists who play fast, using techniques such as arpeggios, alternate picking, sweeping, hammer-ons/pull-offs. Many techniques that allow a guitarist to access more of the guitar. Bringing the guitar to being similar to something like a Piano, where you could play chords or singular notes as well as use two hands to play individual notes, though unlike the piano, you can't really play chords at the same time as single notes- trust me, I've tried and it doesn't really sound good.

Now, you look at another sub-genre, one more obvious to it's link with classical than any other sub-genre, that being Symphonic Metal. You got the mixture of orchestra with metal. But, as heard before, that doesn't make it classical because, "that's just bloody ridicule. Just because classical instruments play along with a metal band doesn't make it classical. Well, it still doesn't. Classical is a term. Classical is like Metal in a way that it is a genre as well as a term to describe such music. And what makes "Classical", classical? is it the root word "class"? Or is it the root word "classic". If you take the word Classic and put it in front of the word Rock, you get Classic Rock. and why is Classic Rock defined the way it is? Because it's considered "Old, yet worth listening to". Classical music is also "Old, yet worth listening to." Metal is a teenager trying to find himself, yet doesn't know which way to bloody go.

The terminological link between Classical and Metal is the sub-genres. With Classical sub-genres, you'll have Opera, Romantic, Baroque, Gregorian Chant, etc.

Metal is a bit more... vibrant? fluctuated with sub-genres? (No specific order) Glam, Thrash, Symphonic, Power, Neoclassical, Melodic, Death, Black, Doom, Classic, Gothic, Stoner (which is just plane rubbish, but that's my opinion), Visual K. Followed by mixed sub-genres such as Symphonic Black, Melodic Death, Symphonic Death, Symphonic Death, Melodic Doom. Then you got fusion Genres which is metal fusing itself with non-metal music such as, folk, jazz, funk, oriental, celtic, pagan, industrial, cyber, trance, punk (Metalcore), even rap, which we call Nu-metal.

So, pretty much. Metal is an explosion of random stuff. Classical stayed on the lines of "classy, nice and smooth" where Metal is "rugged, harsh and mixed."

But in the end, where is the connection between Classical and Metal? What is the connection between Classical and Metal? The connection is more the technique of the guitarist and the vocal style of the vocalist. A guitarist like Yngwie Malmsteen, though he is kind of an overused and in some cases not entirely the best example- let's go with Syu, a Japanese guitarist from the band Galneryus, labeling itself as "Neoclassical/Power Metal"- and I swear, that band is full of talent, if you don't believe me, go check them up and listen to "Angel of Salvation". But I digress. The vocalist comes into play with such older vocalists like Bruce Dickinson. He's an excellent example of a connection. Quotation of Bruce Dickinson in the documentary, "Metal: A Headbanger's Journey" would be to project your voice. Project your voice to the person at the farthest back and figuratively say "Hey you!". Same thing with Opera, way back when humanity didn't have microphones to project their voices. To catch the whole attention of an audience you have to catch the attention of the guy who bought the last ticket and the seat sucks but he's still there. Keyboards have come into place to sometimes act as a stand in for an orchestra or sometimes add to the music itself. An underground band that no one's heard of that does just that would be "Eternal Tears of Sorrow". A Finnish Symphonic/Melodic Death Metal with Gothic influences that sing about romance in a less-than-conspicuous romantic vocal style (growling). But the keyboards are still there. And there's another band that mixed the melodic death metal with the keyboards but I believe it could lower itself "Heaviness" to Power Metal. Bass guitar is often just used to give a denser, more heavy feel to the sound of the rhythmic portions of metal. The drums may vary on the drummer. A good drummer can listen to a song and make the drums sound more than just a beat and bring it in to be a part of the music. Dream Theater is a brilliant example of such, though, that's overused as well. So, I shall go with Orphaned Land (An Israeli Progressive Metal Band with Doom and Death influence that is trying to bring peace to the 3 feuding religions of the Middle East.) and Galneryus.

Also, people I see here have also stated the complexity of classical compared to metal. Well. The only few reasons I would see Metal being considered less complex than Classical is due to there being less instruments to simultaneously be on the same page as well as Classical having many "parts" to one piece of music. But Metal musicians like Classical musicians, are extremely dedicated to their instrument of choice, trying to perfect their techniques and their skills as a musician. Metal guitarists specifically often look and try to strive to be better in technique. And what better way to be better in technique than baroque? Now, I've also mentioned "parts" to a song. But, there are a few metal bands that have also done a similar deal in making their music complex. Nightwish's "Poet and the Pendulum", and "Song of Myself", or Dream Theater's "Octavarium", and "Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence".

In the end, Metal has it's connections with Classical in someways as well as connections with other genres of music. Doesn't mean that Classical and Metal are linked completely. Both are completely different, lingering on different a spectrum of "music" to each other. Metal is just the intellectual and slightly rebellious grandchildren to musical grand parents. That being Mr.Baroque and Ms. Romantic as one side of the family and Mr. Blues and Ms. Jazz as the other side of the family. Blues and Jazz had a Child and called him Rock. Baroque and Romantic had a child and called her Opera. Opera and Rock came together for some reason and married, having two children. Opera and Rock unfortunately divorced, and the two metal children where separated by continents but still kept in contact. Both of whom had been having love affairs with other genre.

and that ends my rant.


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## deggial

virtuosity schmirtuosity; I get similar kicks out of a bravura aria as from a, say, Nile tune. There must be a mystical connection between coloratura and double bass drumming


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## EddieRUKiddingVarese

I would suggest Steve Vai, as some sort of connection.


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## JoseBeausejour

The link for me is not perforce about virtuosity. the appeal is eased by, sure.




 please don't hate (it's my tribute to Prokofiev Dance of the Knights)
ther's a link but absolutely no virtuosity, the intend is to say that listener can commend in is very own way


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## Jord

Use of the harmonic minor scale in most metal, that's pretty much it, everything else is pretty much very simple in metal, just speed and technique, however there are some neoclassical guitarists take a lot influence from classical though, like Michael Romeo from Symphony X, Check out the first track of this album 




Pretty much playing Verdis Dies Irae, i don't listen to much of them but i know in another album they do their own version of a Bach piece.
Jason Becker, Yngwie Malmsteen and so on, these kind of guitarists take a lot of influence from classical like chord progressions, pedals and whatever else, but other than these, the only resemblance from classical to metal is the harmonic minor scale


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## fatiherdem

actually metal music is way more different then classical music in point of attitude. But metal has so many sub-genres and some of them are really similar to classical music in someways but they are unique at the same time. For example there is a progressive metalband called The Human Abstract which I sugguest you to check out.

listen 2:42-4:12 (espacially 3.54 -4:12)





this song is a masterpiece 





listen 3:12 - 4:42





listen first 40 seconds


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## Piwikiwi

starthrower said:


> Hmm? An awful lot of assumptions being made here. What the heck is "inpurely [sic] played show" ? I'm a jazz fan, and I don't hang out in "beer stenched pubs"
> 
> As far as rock usually being simpler than jazz goes, a lot of jazz is straight 4/4 time. Have you ever listened to rock bands like Thinking Plague, Gentle Giant, Henry Cow, National Health, Frank Zappa, King Crimson? It's pretty complex stuff.


A lot of old jazz yes but jazz has changed a lot since the 50's


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## Guest

Massacra - "Apocalyptic Warriors" 

I suggest this song not because of the silly but fun clip from Faust, but because of the way it's basically variations on a theme in the vein of many classical pieces. The whole song stems from a simple motif.


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## dundundundunyea

Idk


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## jurianbai

luckily that instrument haven't invented.


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## DeepR

There is no connection, at least not more than between any random genres of music. Metal fans like to think that some degree of complexity means there must be a connection to classical music... I guess that makes them feel better about the music they're listening to.


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## Cottrell

What do you all think we're listening to before playing? Motorhead, Epica, and what not, that's nonsensical. I suppose at the most forward, glamorized forefront you've got imbeciles with guitars, screaming, playing scales note to note with no variation for shock value. Still, I can't believe that so many people would criticize another's style because of its crudeness.

I personally play what I'm going to call a 'Metalesque' style because it properly expresses my spiritual foundation, along with folk, and have far less experience with any other styles, however, I've practice piano and violin for perhaps a little less than 3000 hours combined, and of course I look to classical habitually to expand my theoretical understanding of music.

Here's how I see it. If you take a number of older, immersed 'Metal heads', I'll say that a single definitive argument we would agree on is that, no matter how refined and progressed classical music has become, not to mention nearly having a monopoly on virtuoso musicians, that whenever I've heard a classical musician transfer their immense talent to preform Metal (not to say there is a link, or not. It so happens that not every pianist looks down on Death and Mayhem) that they are insufficient to say the least, overusing harmony and over complicating structure. 

Either way, I play around four to eight hours a day, and have for years, until my hands bleed or crack, because I cannot stop, even after working two jobs and night classes. I find it utterly laughable, that anyone could mistake someone like me and believe that my personal simplicity waylays my appreciation for classical music, or that I'd imagine it's largely connected to the sound I love the most. If I favored classical, I'd specialize in it.

I also understand what you guys mean. I've never considered Metal to be vastly related to classical, which for all its talent, generally loses my attention, unless it's composed in a forward, baroque manner or behind a large orchestra bellowing (hence why I'm here). I like to imagine that Beethoven rolls in his grave at the impression that Fur Elise was the home of his talent, which need I remind others, is often one of the only songs the general population knows, if that. Of course, you've might have heard the composer a time, no? Mention a name like Glenn Gould or Claudio Arrau and you'll draw blanks from a hundred for ever few that have learned of their work, I promise. 

Comparing to what the general, naive public accepts as contemporary classical, for an example, O' Fortuna, it seems that there are plenty of scuff marks of crude, simplistic pieces on the classical movement as well, and many classically inspired pianists and violinists without a clue.

What I suppose I mean is, the sound I've attached myself to is cheerfully raw and crude, with exaggerated timbre and all. But I strive to appreciate and often preform a variety of styles. I love what I do, and I reiterate, that I have gone as far as to leave my home and ex fiance just months ago because she had impeded on the time I need for practice and exploration, and everything of me is dead set to understand how to preform the music I love to the best of my capabilities.

So, I ask, what manner of conceit allows another to think that dedication is so unimpressive? Many techniques we use take years to simply implement, and while the genre is well defined by hyper masculine 'ham'miness', I'm saddened to see that the underbelly of zealously devoted musicians are depreciated so quickly for the mistakes of the more accessible youth pop metal.

Nobody in their right mind would compare Metallica to the true perfection of classical, and I'm in full swing for that. What I'm trying to express is purely instrumental (easy to say that Metal 'vocals' are on par with 'The Exorcism' meets 'Boy meets world), but there *is* a soul behind the sound, and nothing makes me feel so compelled as a properly composed guitar solo. 

The mainstream vein of Metal listeners would spew nonsense about the connection between sweep picking, hyper blasted arpeggios, etc. putting Metal at a level on another level. I'll say that I find that it takes years, many years, to play Metal correctly and sufficiently, and that form of dedication should be a likeness in itself, especially once noted that the greatest Metal never makes sales.

I can teach the kids I see this metal-core trash, much of the mainstream metal, and modern rock within months, a year or two for the less involved, but its taken me a lifetime to play what I can, and I'm no where near a level I consider acceptable, if I ever will reach my fullest potential. Metal never will be Classical, but to hold some form of elitist standpoint that we'd connect ourselves to classical out of percieved shame is pathetic, unless you have the symphony you've written in hand to make your opinion count.

I ironically was brought to understand what I do of classical by my rhythm guitarist, and at 15 years of piano, he still can't seem to make a single riff without a helping hand, creating dull and unflattering gibberish because they are, at once, separate genres and separate styles of instrumentation.

On top of this, whomever thought that classical guitar really compares to shred style has obviously never experienced the complexity of picking styles. I found simpler pieces on violin far easier that distorted guitar, considering that muting isn't even a major issue. Classical guitar if anything is a primary source of inspiration for the most enveloped 'shredder', and I practice folk-influenced classical guitar myself. 

The only thing I find heavy about overdrive is the sustain, everything else is relative to function and use, and the sound is no more forceful than the common church organ. Its poor application, shamefully, that drives the Heavy Metal into the genre, along with prepubescent imagery. If anything, classical is where you find your most forceful and overpowering pieces.

I'd hoped to imagine that the so called 'intellectual' class of listeners would be more mindful, and perhaps leave a contrast between Metal and rock, which is honestly what your token metal guys are probably pointing at. Compare Yngwie's songs to that of Korn or Disturbed, and you'll no doubt see the source of their misunderstanding, although I note that there's no real argument that Yngwie's technicality is the only aspect compensating for his lack of creativity.

Children think of music as levels of understanding, and use musical appreciation as a way to bolster themselves. Its the diversity of music that gives it flavor, and without that diversity, not even classical could be what it is. Heavy Metal is an infant genre that is used commercially and is littered almost entirely with over the top acting and posturing, but it relies fundamentally on techniques that we identify withing classical among'st others, because in classical we may find a pinnacle for every form of theory, and thus we use classical theory to explore our own sound, with such techniques listed by none other than our beloved elitists here. Funnier still, all music, at some point, links to classical, not only due to the tendency for many genres to evolve towards classical (i.e. jazz), but simply due the overwhelming amount of material and variety within said material.

How poor must a man's hearing be for him not to see it. Metal will only become respectable when it stops being popular, and loses the imagery, but blue blooded spite is a sign of a weak spirit, and also that one has explored so little outside their brackets of acceptability, even more so if they do not have thousands and thousands of hours of experience with a handful of instruments and the helping hands of professional tutelage, which many of us musicians here obviously do. I simply imagine the elitists of classical falling in line with the man who argued that Liszt was greater in practice than his peers simply because the span of their hands prevented them from playing his work. Simple mindedness.

I've read through this forum for a time, but I've made an account purely on the basis of this injustice. I was hoping to see the myths among'st my peers crushed, and a solidarity of understanding presented through superior knowledge of musical theory and practice, and am ashamed that my prejudice excluded such a refined culture from the trappings of a few's ignorance and pettiness.


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## ALEXANDREG

My thoughs are in how far both of this sides go from the mainstream culture.
Metalheads find theirselves isolated from the masses, and see that the same thing happens with the classical folks, thus, feeling identified with them....

At some parts we can say also that metal is like a modern-instrumented version of classical music, which the appeal to instrumentation is something that also happens in the classical niche, so there is a similiarity. However i'm not trying to impose that one is superior than other. The work that the mind goes through by denying the mainstream, and trying to keep a level of musical ideology, takes the individual to be more receptive to other musical styles and accept new things, therefore when one finds the classical "pearl"-pieces end up liking it just like we all already do it.


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## tdc

This classical guitarist is pretty good at metal:


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## Copperears

Glad to find this thread here.

Some brief recommendations of recent work:

The Ocean: Pelagial. Absolutely symphonic in conception.
Savages: Soulfly
Nile: Those Whom the Gods Detest (informed by The Book of the Dead)
Meshuggah: Koloss
Obscura: Omnivium
Gorguts: Colored Sands
Spawn of Possession: Incurso

What do these have to do with classical music?

They are each of them inspired by passionate, masterful virtuosity, applied to thoughtful, ambitious orchestration and musical structure, some as concept wholes, others as evolutions of stylistic convention.

It's all too easy in any musical form to mistake the nature of the popular reception for the nature of the musical intention. They are often diametrically opposite.

As with the best classical music, the above compositions are inspired not just with majesty and vision, but also humor, and joy.

And they are marvelously uncontaminated by the constraints of cheesy commercial production requirements. Yet recorded with enormous clarity and impact.


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## Blake

Copperears said:


> Glad to find this thread here.
> 
> Some brief recommendations of recent work:
> 
> The Ocean: Pelagial. Absolutely symphonic in conception.
> Savages: Soulfly
> Nile: Those Whom the Gods Detest (informed by The Book of the Dead)
> Meshuggah: Koloss
> Obscura: Omnivium
> Gorguts: Colored Sands
> Spawn of Possession: Incurso
> 
> What do these have to do with classical music?
> 
> They are each of them inspired by passionate, masterful virtuosity, applied to thoughtful, ambitious orchestration and musical structure, some as concept wholes, others as evolutions of stylistic convention.
> 
> It's all too easy in any musical form to mistake the nature of the popular reception for the nature of the musical intention. They are often diametrically opposite.
> 
> As with the best classical music, the above compositions are inspired not just with majesty and vision, but also humor, and joy.
> 
> And they are marvelously uncontaminated by the constraints of cheesy commercial production requirements. Yet recorded with enormous clarity and impact.


With this ideology you can say all musical genres with genuine passion, vision, virtuosity, etc... are related to Classical. What about Jazz with Julian Lage and his band of improvisational/technical abilities? Or what about Indian music with Ravi Shankar's virtuosity on the Sitar; incorporating immense depth of perception. Or World music with Loreena Mckennitt and her eclectic group of musicians going down their visionary path? The list goes on and on....

What I'm getting at is there isn't any more of a relation between Metal and Classical than there is between World and Classical, Jazz and Classical, Rock and Classical, etc... They simply share a passion and virtuosity for their craft. But the fundamental genres of music are very different in their approach, and in what they want to express.


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## mpfindung

Jupiter said:


> Why is it that a lot of converts to classical music begin their journey in heavy metal? [...] this seems to be a pattern.


My immediate reaction to the responses on the first page was:
How could people *miss* the connection? To me it's no surprise at all that people who like metal have an easy time switching to classical. Here are the first two pieces of Classical that came to mind as obvious links:

Vivaldi - Summer (skip to 17:56)





Bartok - String Quartet No.4





Also, Compare Earfeels:

Sonata Arctica: (just the first thing I happened to search; I'm not familiar with this music)





Mozart: (Especially 3:06, the original drop  )





What I mean by this, is the ear-pulse (in the former carried by drum/bass, in the latter the lower strings, brass, and timpani), also the way the rhythmic pulse doubles/halves to give you different motionfeels (this is how classical rhythm works). Add to that the basic harmonic structures (comparatively to 19th and 20th century classical music..), Classical music was totally composed with the "common" ears in mind, the "pop" chord progressions, etc...

I think the key is that there are a -lot- of common earfeels and rhythmfeels between the two styles.


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## I am new

I found this thread by chance, and I may not know a whole lot more than what most do here (I am new [here]), but I do play percussion in my school's orchestra; so I know a little. I found this group about a year ago, and instantly loved the intensity, speed, and precision (from all the players) and the ties with this group to classical music is obvious. The pianist and lead guitarist writes all of the orchestral parts and most of the coordination of those parts with the band (time and chord changes, mainly). And the bassist also does the clean vocals. I know you may hate this, but I think that this group is great at getting all the parts where they need to be, and accenting the right things to make the point.

Beginning of the Album:





Interesting transition with this one (and my favorite):





Ending Piano Solo:





I feel, at least for me, the connections that SOME metal has with classical is the feeling, musicianship, and some of the scales used, although I don't think the scales are the most important part.


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## drosales

I appreciate the effort of many metalheads here trying to draw attention to the relationships.
That being said, I'm afraid you are giving some of the most superficial and "pseudo" examples of Metal borrowing from Classical.
Epica? please.. this is simply pop music using some strings and choruses.
Spawn of Possession -> WANKING. maybe we could liken this to the ****** Paganini. But Spawn of Possession has even less soul or perceivable direction in development.
Malmsteen? really? if I have to explain this one to you... then you don't understand the basic spirit of classical music. Even the best of his music (in his debut) just brushes with Classical influence, which remains mostly ornamental

While I'm one myself, I tend to side with those saying that the relationship is more inspirational. Remember *Black Sabbath* started taking inspiration from horror movie soundtracks. Horror movie soundtracks come from late-Romantic to Modern classical influences on the more mainstream soundtrack composers. So, there you go.

Origin of Metal in Classical?
We also have what a poster mentioned before: the bands which take a "narrative" approach (early *Morbid Angel*, *Gorguts*, early *Burzum*, early *At the Gates*). The ones that should be ignored in this section are the ones with an obvious "cyclic" pop approach or those whose borrowings are merely ornamental and not structural or in character. Classical music does not mean arpeggios and baroque ornamental patterns, it does not mean keyboard strings or "opera" singing. One of the great things that is used by some bands is actually using the drums as another instrument which can add another layer of dynamics to the music, instead of a being merely the provider of beat, as it is in traditional Rock music.
The following are songs whose albums I recommend listening to as a whole. In listening to these I beg you to pay attention to motif and development, and of course, the "Breath" of the music, the most important sense that most modern musicians forget about, I think.

*Morbid Angel*'s _Rebel Lands_





*Gorguts*'s _Earthly Love_ 





*Burzum*'s _Det Som Engang Var_ (this one will require some patience for those who want blasts of millions of notes, this is music is more worth it than you think)





and my personal favorite:
*At the Gates*' _Non Divine_





Recognizing deeper classical influence in Metal

I think many mistakes lie in this: either thinking that the superficial (ornamental) approach to happy rock/pop Metal (*Epica* or a lot of power metal) is the best example of Metal's similarities to Classical music, and the other is thinking that more notes and faster "technical" playing is a sure sign of brotherhood with it. "Virtuosic adoration" is not a mark solely of Classical music or Metal. Read a little more, explore a little more and this will be apparent.
Power Metal and traditional Heavy Metal (e.g. *Iron Maiden*, *Angel Witch*, *Satan*, *Witchfinder General*) have foundations which lie more on traditional English songs (drinking songs? folk songs?) than in Classical music.

The Classical borrowings on, for example, Iron Maiden's _Hallowed Be Thy Name_ are merely ornamental and in this song sip a little into the phrasing, more than they do in their music in general.





On the other hand, I can see a deeper structural on the more "bare bones" music of early *Celtic Frost*'s _Circle of the Tyrants_. If you pay attention, you will see how this is embedded in the development of the song and the reuse of motifs.





Is 'modern' (2010s) Metal the ultimate mature incarnation of the genre?

About Metal "maturing", this probably came about in the 1989~1994 period in the underground, where the most profound developments of Metal as ART happened. After which the movement went "mainstream" in the sense that when it became subject to more attention, it was absorbed by those who would bring it closer to the nature of pop (_Slaughter of the Soul_ and other metalcore spawns, for example). Note: The drastic change in At the Gates comes with the departure of earlier mastermind *Alf Svensson*.

*At the Gates*' _Cold_





It was also the influence of some early 90s act like Pantera which brought about the "Great Dumbification" of the genre of the post-1994 era.

*Pantera*'s _Walk_





This is not to say there is nothing worthwhile after that date. But as an artistic movement, a philosophy, Metal basically died.

Brief History of how I think the golden era (1989~1994) of Metal came about in the underground

Remember that we have "fast genre evolution" because of the heavy limitations of the subgenres in early Metal history. English Heavy Metal (which reached its full potential in 1984 or so; maybe Power Metal is a continuation of this tradition) grew into Speed Metal which was also influenced by Punk sounds. Why was the savage punk aesthetic adopted? It was more suitable for the expression of topics that are rejected by pink-glasses-wearing society at large. The 80s saw the rapid progression of Punk into Hardcore into Grindcore, each a more extreme (or unlistenable, if you like) version of the previous one. These fed this extremity to Metal, which in turn was becoming more and more distinguished from the Rock format with 1985 albums like Possessed's _7 Churches_, Celtic Frost's _To Mega Therion_, _Bathory's The Return_, Death Strike's _******' Death_. The following 4 years saw rapid expansion. in 1989 we had: *Atheist*, *Morbid Angel* and the more obscure and forgotten *Obliveon* releasing full fledged and developed Death Metal albums. I advise listening closely, for motifs, development, and conceptual idea of a song. These come closer to a classical or authentic progressive approach to the music.
Of course we always have the famous popular turds of the era: *Death* and *Cannibal Corpse*. A serious listener should strive to distinguish the quality of these two groups.

1989
*Atheist* _Piece of Time_ (heavy jazz, aka American classical music, influence)





1992

In my opinion this is the epitome of Metal borrowing from a classical music-making mindset, beyond simple ornamentation borrowing.

*At the Gates* _Kingdom Gone_





Doom Metal bands that took from classical rather than from mere rock like most others. These go beyond use of strings or ornamentation, again. This is about pervading use of texture, consistency of thought, and development (related sections that further thought, not random additions).
*Skepticism* _The Everdarkgreen_





*Funeral* _Taarene_





Completely differentiated Black and Death Metal aesthetics (for those who understand them from their philosophy up, there is no qualm here, or gray area). Black Metal borrows from Death Metal, ambient music, classical music and rock in different proportions to achieve something else. It is not defined by either or by all of them. Original Black Metal, btw, should be understood from a Metaphysical standpoint, it is not the vapid rock-ized, merely melancholic ************ it has come to be. Look for early *Immortal*, first album and demos *Ancient*, pre-Anthems *Emperor*, and specially *Burzum*.


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## drosales

Copperears said:


> Glad to find this thread here.
> 
> Some brief recommendations of recent work:
> 
> The Ocean: Pelagial. Absolutely symphonic in conception.
> Savages: Soulfly
> Nile: Those Whom the Gods Detest (informed by The Book of the Dead)
> Meshuggah: Koloss
> Obscura: Omnivium
> Gorguts: Colored Sands
> Spawn of Possession: Incurso
> 
> What do these have to do with classical music?
> 
> They are each of them inspired by passionate, masterful virtuosity, applied to thoughtful, ambitious orchestration and musical structure, some as concept wholes, others as evolutions of stylistic convention.
> 
> It's all too easy in any musical form to mistake the nature of the popular reception for the nature of the musical intention. They are often diametrically opposite.
> 
> As with the best classical music, the above compositions are inspired not just with majesty and vision, but also humor, and joy.
> 
> And they are marvelously uncontaminated by the constraints of cheesy commercial production requirements. Yet recorded with enormous clarity and impact.


I think these display connections to classical music which are more ornamental than deep-seated in structural development. Specially Meshuggah is completely out of place here, having absolutely nothing to do with classical tradition. Obscura is a band of imitators which are closer to a rock paradigm of music making than a classical and Spawn of Possession are merely wankers with little clue of music beyond note vomiting.
Colored Sands, by Gorguts, is unfortunately a very simple rock product dressed as textured Metal. Look at the structure, look at development, these songs go nowhere.

For better modern examples I recommend that really bring a refined classical thinking to the Metal paradigm.

*Condor* _Nadia_





*Zealotry* _The Charnel Expanse_


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## captain charles ryder

IMO metal is a primitive form of european symphonic music. This is poor and agressive version of this music, with one-dimension feelings. I don't think it's so bad. Many people who listened metal turns later to classics.


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## NeutronHammer

I think there are some very fundamental misconceptions here. Wider reading in these forums reveals an alarming trend, specifically where Death Metal is concerned. The problem of attitude should first be addressed: listeners of Death Metal frequenting these forums quite often recede into reactionary defense in retort to ignorance on the part of "classical purists". 

I refer to the berating of Death Metal as ignorance because, in this age of factionalism, many seek refuge in generic traits and wave a proverbial flag - a means of identification, with the end an pseudo intellectual comfort zone that betrays one's true lack of understanding. That is, many "classical purists" on this forum WANT to be referred to as "arrogant" - it carries the power of intimidation over the reactionary "downtrodden".

I will not here resort to notions of subjectivity, because this is not an epistemology forum, nor have I the desire to open such a debate. Like the wheel, or any other invention, the active engagement in music by human beings spanning 4000 years has resulted in a criteria for deriving value. While this is culturally dependent, those cultures who placed a higher emphasis on musical development gravitated towards what we recognise (through abstract understanding) as narrative in sound.

Death Metal is an enourmous genre, spanning 30 years and spawning numerous sub genres. To deny the obvious classical influence in Death Metal is idiotic - Timeghoul and Obliveon (on 'From this Day Forward') alone dispel any notion to the contrary. The phrasing and structure are firmly rooted in classical music - albeit, with a lesser emphasis on motif exploration in favour of shorter, repeating cycles of classically phrased movements (riffs). The majority of Death Metal judged by "classical purists" is neither considered in high esteem by Death Metal devotees, nor representative of the genre's peaks. 

The next factor, and the one that demonstrates the failure to acknowledge musical value on the part of this forum's "classical purists" is the factor Death Metal employs that is largely absent, by default, from classical music (by virtue of the "class" context from which much classical was composed). The ritualistic element, derived from occult tradition spanning North Africa, Europe and the Ancient Middle East can not be under emphasised. Thus, setting becomes essential. Take dISEMBOWELMENT's 'Transcendence into the Peripheral' album - to listen to and assess it using conventional value standards demonstrates a level of ignorance that nullifies the very validity of a listener.

Why? Because ignorance of the ritualistic element in Death Metal, the function relative to ancient mysticism creates a completely false foundation for assessment. 

Instructions:

1. Buy aforementioned CD
2. Wait for night - put the CD in the CD player.
3. EMPTY YOUR HEAD OF PRECONCEPTION - if you don't know how to listen to music, go and play video games.
4. Turn off the light, lay in bed, shut your eyes, and don't even think of classical music, metal music, any music. Your goal is to EXPERIENCE new information. To recognise the most archetypical beauty in classical music is one thing, but to recognise beauty in what is unfamiliar is quite another. We're not talking Warhol here; this isn't semen on a canvas packaged as art. This is something altogether beautiful and very different.
5. Shut your mouth, press play, and wait for the trance state. 
6. Don't freak out when your mind ventures into strange places - the source of music was ritual. There are places in the mind you've never been.

Try the above steps - it's a challenge. If anyone follows those steps and is unmoved by the experience, you have my condolences. It must be painful indeed to publicly devote oneself to something they privately never understood.

HAPPY LISTENING!


----------



## Guest

NeutronHammer said:


> I think there are some very fundamental misconceptions here. Wider reading in these forums reveals an alarming trend, specifically where Death Metal is concerned. The problem of attitude should first be addressed: listeners of Death Metal frequenting these forums quite often recede into reactionary defense in retort to ignorance on the part of "classical purists".
> 
> I refer to the berating of Death Metal as ignorance because, in this age of factionalism, many seek refuge in generic traits and wave a proverbial flag - a means of identification, with the end an pseudo intellectual comfort zone that betrays one's true lack of understanding. That is, many "classical purists" on this forum WANT to be referred to as "arrogant" - it carries the power of intimidation over the reactionary "downtrodden".
> 
> I will not here resort to notions of subjectivity, because this is not an epistemology forum, nor have I the desire to open such a debate. Like the wheel, or any other invention, the active engagement in music by human beings spanning 4000 years has resulted in a criteria for deriving value. While this is culturally dependent, those cultures who placed a higher emphasis on musical development gravitated towards what we recognise (through abstract understanding) as narrative in sound.
> 
> Death Metal is an enourmous genre, spanning 30 years and spawning numerous sub genres. To deny the obvious classical influence in Death Metal is idiotic - Timeghoul and Obliveon (on 'From this Day Forward') alone dispel any notion to the contrary. The phrasing and structure are firmly rooted in classical music - albeit, with a lesser emphasis on motif exploration in favour of shorter, repeating cycles of classically phrased movements (riffs). The majority of Death Metal judged by "classical purists" is neither considered in high esteem by Death Metal devotees, nor representative of the genre's peaks.
> 
> The next factor, and the one that demonstrates the failure to acknowledge musical value on the part of this forum's "classical purists" is the factor Death Metal employs that is largely absent, by default, from classical music (by virtue of the "class" context from which much classical was composed). The ritualistic element, derived from occult tradition spanning North Africa, Europe and the Ancient Middle East can not be under emphasised. Thus, setting becomes essential. Take dISEMBOWELMENT's 'Transcendence into the Peripheral' album - to listen to and assess it using conventional value standards demonstrates a level of ignorance that nullifies the very validity of a listener.
> 
> Why? Because ignorance of the ritualistic element in Death Metal, the function relative to ancient mysticism creates a completely false foundation for assessment.
> 
> Instructions:
> 
> 1. Buy aforementioned CD
> 2. Wait for night - put the CD in the CD player.
> 3. EMPTY YOUR HEAD OF PRECONCEPTION - if you don't know how to listen to music, go and play video games.
> 4. Turn off the light, lay in bed, shut your eyes, and don't even think of classical music, metal music, any music. Your goal is to EXPERIENCE new information. To recognise the most archetypical beauty in classical music is one thing, but to recognise beauty in what is unfamiliar is quite another. We're not talking Warhol here; this isn't semen on a canvas packaged as art. This is something altogether beautiful and very different.
> 5. Shut your mouth, press play, and wait for the trance state.
> 6. Don't freak out when your mind ventures into strange places - the source of music was ritual. There are places in the mind you've never been.
> 
> Try the above steps - it's a challenge. If anyone follows those steps and is unmoved by the experience, you have my condolences. It must be painful indeed to publicly devote oneself to something they privately never understood.
> 
> HAPPY LISTENING!


I call balderdash. I sampled not the album you mention, but another by this band (it was the only one available on iTunes), their self-title album. If this is the best representation of Death Metal, then I still think I am not missing anything. And as for classical influences - if that is what you choose to believe, it's no skin off of my back.

My only question is . . . what the hell does it matter? Why do metal enthusiasts need this affirmation? Are they so insecure about their taste in music that they have to associate it with what, I am presuming, they accept as representing the musical ideal, i.e. classical music? I like lots of different music other than classical, and whether or not there is any classical influence is completely irrelevant to my enjoyment. I don't have to validate it in that way. If there is any classical influence in metal, or death metal, it is superficial at best, kind of like my son mimicking me mowing the lawn with his toy lawn mower. He goes through the motions and is influenced by me, but certainly there is no grass being shortened by his methods and effort.


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## Guest

Connection?

Chutzpah.


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## Couac Addict

Wigs and syphilis?


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## Guest

Couac Addict said:


> Wigs and syphilis?


Ha!Ha! Brilliant!


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## norman bates

drosales said:


> 1989
> *Atheist* _Piece of Time_ (heavy jazz, aka American classical music, influence)


Years ago I listened a couple of albums of those guys because of their supposed jazz influence. I was really puzzled because I didn't hear any jazz element, and now listening again this song the effect is the same. I mean, there's no improvisation, no syncopation, and I can't hear any element of jazz harmony.


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## Guest

Cliche "compliments" like "jazz influence" and "classical influence" are typically passed down through generations of metalheads - in this day and age no one actually knows what they mean by it (if anything). That said, you might listen to their 2nd album (Unquestionable Presence). I asked my close friend who is a casual drummer - she hears jazzy stuff on some level in that one.


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## The Sound Of Perseverance

is this any good?


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## violadude

The Sound Of Perseverance said:


> is this any good?


I kinda like this one.


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## The Sound Of Perseverance

violadude said:


> I kinda like this one.


Finally score! yes


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## opus55

You could say the same thing about just about every western music genre. Metal music is not any more classically influenced than other genres that can be taken as serious music (excludes rap, dance, etc).


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## The Sound Of Perseverance

opus55 said:


> You could say the same thing about just about every western music genre. Metal music is not any more classically influenced than other genres that can be taken as serious music (excludes rap, dance, etc).


did you check out the video?


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## norman bates

arcaneholocaust said:


> Cliche "compliments" like "jazz influence" and "classical influence" are typically passed down through generations of metalheads - in this day and age no one actually knows what they mean by it (if anything). That said, you might listen to their 2nd album (Unquestionable Presence). I asked my close friend who is a casual drummer - she hears jazzy stuff on some level in that one.


Unquestionable presence was the first album I heard of them, as I've heard Cynic, Death (those albums with Steve DiGiorgio), Ephel Duath, Fredrik Thordendal... I wish to hear some real jazz influence used by metal musicians (someone who knows how to put elements of the music of guys like Andrew Hill, Mingus, Booker Little, Herbie Nichols, Lennie Tristano, Bill Evans etc? That would be great) but it's clear that for many of those bands the idea of jazz is the most bland fusion (certainly not the music of guys like Wayne Shorter or Don Grolnick). So is there a fretless bass? "Jazz"


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## violadude

The Sound Of Perseverance said:


> Finally score! yes


This is more or less the kind of metal/rock/whatever that I like the most.






Now, what do YOU think about it?


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## Piwikiwi

Desperately trying to find a connection between classical music and metal always seem kind of sad to me. Are these people so insecure about the music that they love that they need to have outside authentication/recognition?


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## ptr

Piwikiwi said:


> Desperately trying to find a connection between classical music and metal always seem kind of sad to me. Are these people so insecure about the music that they love that they need to have outside authentication/recognition?


Yes! (blablablablablablablabla) :devil:

/ptr


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## Guest

Piwikiwi said:


> Desperately trying to find a connection between classical music and metal always seem kind of sad to me. Are these people so insecure about the music that they love that they need to have outside authentication/recognition?


Subconsciously, but yes.


----------



## starthrower

violadude said:


> This is more or less the kind of metal/rock/whatever that I like the most.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Now, what do YOU think about it?


It's one of the more unusual albums in my collection. The problem I have with metal is that all of the music sounds like it was written by somebody with an electric guitar in their hands. Now Mike Johnson of Thinking Plague is also an electric guitarist, but he is a very different kind of composer.


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## The Sound Of Perseverance

You guys are deluded


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## Piwikiwi

The Sound Of Perseverance said:


> You guys are deluded


Do you want me to acknowledge that we are, in fact, deluded?


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## The Sound Of Perseverance

Piwikiwi said:


> Do you want me to acknowledge that we are, in fact, deluded?


i don't care btw i hate your word limit thing


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## violadude

The Sound Of Perseverance said:


> You guys are deluded


YOU DIDN'T TELL ME WHAT YOU THOUGHT OF WHAT I POSTED!!!! dude...


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## The Sound Of Perseverance

violadude said:


> YOU DIDN'T TELL ME WHAT YOU THOUGHT OF WHAT I POSTED!!!! dude...


Ok ok ok ok ok ok ok I just listened to it and it's pretty cool not my cup of metal but it's bearable.


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## DiesIraeCX

Sound Of Perseverance, I think some of us classical listeners deserve a medal for testing our mettle by listening to your examples of Black Metal. I apologize for not contributing anything of substance, though. I promise I won't meddle in your affairs anymore.

I'm sorry, I can never resist making terrible jokes!


----------



## SeptimalTritone

violadude said:


> YOU DIDN'T TELL ME WHAT YOU THOUGHT OF WHAT I POSTED!!!! dude...


I'm not a metal listener at all, but I liked it a lot! It has a rich and varied sound color, kind of like how classical music in the last 50 years has focused more on developments in vertical color. Of course, here that sound color is channeled into a metal spirit, not a classical art perspective, but that metal spirit is done very well. Xenakis would totally approve.


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## Guest

The Sound Of Perseverance said:


> You guys are deluded


Please, elaborate. It will please me.


----------



## The Sound Of Perseverance

i love all of you guys! that is all i have to say


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## SeptimalTritone

The Sound Of Perseverance said:


> i love all of you guys! that is all i have to say


I love you too! :kiss:


----------



## PetrB

What puzzles me most about this popular question / notion _is why any connection is sought_ or supposedly found in the first place.

Metal is flat out youth culture rock 'n' roll, a thing unto itself, and as that 'thing unto itself' I would think the least desirable spin on it would be in striving to go out of its way to become thought of as 'all dressed up.'

Why people want or need to think it has any connection to 'classical music' is I think a matter of a kind of pretentiousness usually associated with the more insular classical fan who is also concerned about their identity and social / intellectual prestige as connected with another genre of music which is after all just music, but of another ilk.

That strained connection of group identity and social prestige some assign to any particular genre of music is perhaps the only real connection.


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## tdc

Well, there are some notable metal players who have been interested by classical music and influenced by it. For example the Randy Rhoads riff in Ozzy's song _Diary of a Madman_, was inspired by Leo Brouwer's Simple Study No. 6, the connection there is quite obvious. I think that classical musicians have a reputation of high skill and instrumental virtuosity, these elements I think are important to most metal musicians, and perhaps that is why they often seek some classical training in an effort to increase their skills.

I think such training generally makes these musicians better too and it shows in their playing. So, personally I would encourage metal musicians to branch out and explore other genres of music like classical. At the same time I find it not surprising at all that so many classical music enthusiasts show little to no interest in metal and seek to distance themselves from it. :lol:

For many classical fans I think it is truly just a distaste for heavy metal that causes this, in some cases it is also sheer ignorance and what often goes along with ignorance is a sense of feeling threatened somehow by it, which I think is completely unnecessary.


----------



## Morimur

violadude said:


> This is more or less the kind of metal/rock/whatever that I like the most.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Now, what do YOU think about it?


Interesting piece. I like most of it, with the exception of the drumming, which periodically changes from one repetitive pattern to the next.


----------



## aleazk

violadude said:


> This is more or less the kind of metal/rock/whatever that I like the most.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Now, what do YOU think about it?


That was pretty good. There's actual musical thinking there. The only objection I have is that too many of the textural transitions are 'panel-like' and static rather than continuous and developmental, but there are many interesting build-ups, like in the first minutes. I guess it would be silly to ask from my part a 100% classical thinking in that.


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## The Sound Of Perseverance

metal vocals are hard to beat this is tim Aymar as the singer if you can match up any classical singer to him ill just give you another


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## Piwikiwi

The Sound Of Perseverance said:


> i love all of you guys! that is all i have to say


I like to clarify that I don't dislike metal at all. It's not really my thing at the moment but that might change. I only have a problem with the so called connection between metal and classical.


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## norman bates

The Sound Of Perseverance said:


> metal vocals are hard to beat this is tim Aymar as the singer if you can match up any classical singer to him ill just give you another


I prefer even Mustaine. Seriously.


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## The Sound Of Perseverance

norman bates said:


> I prefer even Mustaine. Seriously.


are you high? no just no......


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## The Sound Of Perseverance

Piwikiwi said:


> I like to clarify that I don't dislike metal at all. It's not really my thing at the moment but that might change. I only have a problem with the so called connection between metal and classical.


thats alright you don't have to like it


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## PetrB

The Sound Of Perseverance said:


> are you high? no just no......


Sometimes, older than fourteen or sixteen _might be perceived as 'being high,'_ but....


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## Guest

The Sound Of Perseverance said:


> metal vocals are hard to beat this is tim Aymar as the singer if you can match up any classical singer to him ill just give you another


Go listen to the "Die Hoelle Rache" aria from Mozart's The Magic Flute - especially sung by Lucia Popp, if you can find it - and show me one metal vocalist that could hold a candle to it. Then we'll talk.


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## The Sound Of Perseverance

DrMike said:


> Go listen to the "Die Hoelle Rache" aria from Mozart's The Magic Flute - especially sung by Lucia Popp, if you can find it - and show me one metal vocalist that could hold a candle to it. Then we'll talk.


Ok
Ok I'll do that!


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## Morimur

Double post. Double post.


----------



## PetrB

DrMike said:


> Go listen to the "Die Hoelle Rache" aria from Mozart's The Magic Flute - especially sung by Lucia Popp, if you can find it - and show me one metal vocalist that could hold a candle to it. Then we'll talk.


This desperately needs another qualifying phrase, "and without using any means of amplification."

Me, I would've suggested Lulu's death scream when her throat has just been slashed by Jack the Ripper and the orchestral accompaniment is a tutti ninety-foot tall vertical harmony made up of all twelve tones of the chromatic scale. Which recording is critical, some sopranos just letting out a brief squeal, others a prolonged blood-curdling jump-right-out-of-your-skin full-throated scream like to that of a mountain lion. (Berg, _Lulu_; final scene of act III) :tiphat:


----------



## Morimur

PetrB said:


> Sometimes, older than fourteen or sixteen _might be perceived as 'being high,'_ but....


Considering the age of most TC members, _senile_ might be a more realistic possibility.


----------



## Wicked_one

What are your thoughts on this one?


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## ptr

Wicked_one said:


> What are your thoughts on this one?


A joke! His Italian suck and I'm quite sure that he could not do it without a mike in front of a symphony orchestra! And that is what vocal technique is all about, if You need a microphone to be impressive You're really useless! 

/ptr


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## tdc

Mike Patton's voice is quite impressive, (and he speaks fluent Italian too). :tiphat:


----------



## ptr

tdc said:


> Mike Patton's voice is quite impressive


In which way? The microphone and sound engineer is at least 50% of what You hear here, show me a clip where he does this without aids and we can start discussing "impressive"!

/ptr


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## Guest

tdc said:


> Mike Patton's voice is quite impressive, (and he speaks fluent Italian too). :tiphat:


Freddie Mercury had a much more impressive voice - still not as good as a decent classically trained vocalist, or even a poorly trained one.


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## The Sound Of Perseverance

PetrB said:


> This desperately needs another qualifying phrase, "and without using any means of amplification."
> 
> Me, I would've suggested Lulu's death scream when her throat has just been slashed by Jack the Ripper and the orchestral accompaniment is a tutti ninety-foot tall vertical harmony made up of all twelve tones of the chromatic scale. Which recording is critical, some sopranos just letting out a brief squeal, others a prolonged blood-curdling jump-right-out-of-your-skin full-throated scream like to that of a mountain lion. (Berg, _Lulu_; final scene of act III) :tiphat:


I'll show you guys some death and black metal vocals


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## norman bates

The Sound Of Perseverance said:


> are you high? no just no......


 I'm not against shouters (Chris Cornell was great in the old Soundgarden days, and I quite like also Rob Halford) but if I have to judge this guy for this song I don't like it at all. Mustaine has a terrible voice, especially in live concerts where often he seems Mickey Mouse, but he has also some very convincing moments on tracks like Train of consequences. To me this one you've linked is bad and forced singing.


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## Guest

The Sound Of Perseverance said:


> I'll show you guys some death and black metal vocals


Please no. Describing them as vocals is an insult to actual vocalists everywhere. Even Barry Manilow is preferable to your growling and screaming. Hell, even Florence Foster Jenkins is preferrable:


----------



## The Sound Of Perseverance

DrMike said:


> Please no. Describing them as vocals is an insult to actual vocalists everywhere. Even Barry Manilow is preferable to your growling and screaming. Hell, even Florence Foster Jenkins is preferrable:


voices are instruments and some are harder to play than others including death growling i almost lost my voice trying to teach them to myself. they are shunned because people are uneducated and refuse to learn more about them they are fitting to more grisly lyrical themes and they go with the other instruments.


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## The Sound Of Perseverance

Wicked_one said:


> What are your thoughts on this one?


manowar i like a little i don't listen to their stuff though how about


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## The Sound Of Perseverance

norman bates said:


> I'm not against shouters (Chris Cornell was great in the old Soundgarden days, and I quite like also Rob Halford) but if I have to judge this guy for this song I don't like it at all. Mustaine has a terrible voice, especially in live concerts where often he seems Mickey Mouse, but he has also some very convincing moments on tracks like Train of consequences. To me this one you've linked is bad and forced singing.


daves not that bad but he's not that good at either just because your old ears can not appeal to it does not mean its complete


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## norman bates

The Sound Of Perseverance said:


> daves not that bad but he's not that good at either just because your old ears can not appeal to it does not mean its complete


I don't know what you mean with "complete*. As for actors beauty is not the most important thing I don't think that the value of a singer should be judged considering their vocal extension, there are guys who have great vocal technique that for me are terrible while I consider great singers guys that sometimes can't even sing in tune. In the case of this Tim Aymar onestly I'm not particularly impressed even by his skills (obviously considering only this song).

*I'm thinking of someone who can use all those weird singing techniques, like throat singing, yodel, whistle register etc


----------



## The Sound Of Perseverance

norman bates said:


> I don't know what you mean with "complete*. As for actors beauty is not the most important thing I don't think that the value of a singer should be judged considering their vocal extension, there are guys who have great vocal technique that for me are terrible while I consider great singers guys that sometimes can't even sing in tune. In the case of this Tim Aymar onestly I'm not particularly impressed even by his skills (obviously considering only this song).
> 
> *I'm thinking of someone who can use all those weird singing techniques, like throat singing, yodel, whistle register etc


ok hmm let me search what about king diamond? i posted him a few messages up


----------



## Guest

The Sound Of Perseverance said:


> voices are instruments and some are harder to play than others including death growling i almost lost my voice trying to teach them to myself. they are shunned because people are uneducated and refuse to learn more about them they are fitting to more grisly lyrical themes and they go with the other instruments.


Difficulty of doing something has absolutely nothing to do with artistic quality. For example, it would be extremely difficult to insert one's head in one's anus - I'm not going to applaud someone capable of accomplishing such a task simply on the basis that it is difficult, or that the person might injure themselves in the process.

Glenn Danzig manages to sing of grisly and morbid and often occult topics with a very lyrical voice that I find appealing, such as it is. If anything, I think it is much more disquieting and unsettling to sing of such morbid topics in a relatively melodic tone versus incoherent growling and screaming.


----------



## The Sound Of Perseverance

DrMike said:


> Difficulty of doing something has absolutely nothing to do with artistic quality. For example, it would be extremely difficult to insert one's head in one's anus - I'm not going to applaud someone capable of accomplishing such a task simply on the basis that it is difficult, or that the person might injure themselves in the process.
> 
> Glenn Danzig manages to sing of grisly and morbid and often occult topics with a very lyrical voice that I find appealing, such as it is. If anything, I think it is much more disquieting and unsettling to sing of such morbid topics in a relatively melodic tone versus incoherent growling and screaming.


theres the problem i know every word of what they're saying in most songs. its difficult to get accustomed to. it took me around 5 months and its very artistic the very definition of artistic is having or revealing natural creative skill. and whats not creative about death growling? theres no one else who came up with anything like it before it was born.


----------



## Guest

The Sound Of Perseverance said:


> theres the problem i know every word of what they're saying in most songs. its difficult to get accustomed to. it took me around 5 months and its very artistic the very definition of artistic is having or revealing natural creative skill. and whats not creative about death growling? theres no one else who came up with anything like it before it was born.


Oh contraire - they are just shallow, morbid imitations of this pioneer:





And I can understand him.


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## The Sound Of Perseverance

DrMike said:


> Oh contraire - they are just shallow, morbid imitations of this pioneer:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And I can understand him.


I love how you refuse to think about my message and instead resort to childish mockery I think I've won this argument by default. You should think about being civilized in an arguement. I'm suprised none of your fellow classical music fans are mad at you. Remember when you're on a forum you are no only representing yourself but your fellow forum goers too.


----------



## norman bates

The Sound Of Perseverance said:


> I love how you refuse to think about my message and instead resort to childish mockery I think I've won this argument by default. You should think about being civilized in an arguement. I'm suprised none of your fellow classical music fans are mad at you. Remember when you're on a forum *you are no only representing yourself but your fellow forum goers too.*


do you think you're representing myself?


----------



## Guest

The Sound Of Perseverance said:


> I love how you refuse to think about my message and instead resort to childish mockery I think I've won this argument by default. You should think about being civilized in an arguement. I'm suprised none of your fellow classical music fans are mad at you. Remember when you're on a forum you are no only representing yourself but your fellow forum goers too.


Oh, believe me, there are several that I regularly enrage. But as far as the forum goes, we are a vast, diverse group, with different interests, and mine is my own. I think your attempts at portraying Metal Growling as some artistic endeavor is laughable, and your attempt to try and legitimize your own particular flavor of Metal as somehow inter-connected with Classical music as insecure. You can think what you want as to who has "won" the argument - go ahead and poll the forum as to their opinion of Death Metal and see just how much love you have generated for it. I mock it, first, because it was a pretty funny joke, after your equally funny assertion that growling in such a way as to not destroy your vocal chords is artistic. That just begged some mockery - and given that I mocked it with a children's program, I'll accept that as childish mockery.

I mock other things as well, related to classical music - particularly when it comes to Wagner's Tristan and Isolde, and how I am ready to kill off the two title characters just to end the incessant moaning about how they love each other so much they could die.

You are on a crusade to gain the acceptance of self-professed Classical music fans for your safe-growling Death Metal. I find that humorous. So I have fun with it. And as I have said before, your attempt to validate the "artistic" merit of safe-growling seems as ridiculous as Florence Foster Jenkins self-delusion that she had real vocal talent.


----------



## norman bates

DrMike said:


> I mock it, first, because it was a pretty funny joke


I've laughed hard but after all, death growl singing what is it, if not the representation of a (cookie) monster?
Anyway, I don't think that growl is necessarily a bad thing, my problem with it is that it's more a trick than a style, and a lot over used. I mean, even guys like Tom Waits or Louis Armstrong used to sing growling, but they did that but when they thought it was a good effect, not always.


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## DeepR

Listening to metal is like watching a bad horror movie. I just can't take it seriously as music.


----------



## The Sound Of Perseverance

DrMike said:


> Oh, believe me, there are several that I regularly enrage. But as far as the forum goes, we are a vast, diverse group, with different interests, and mine is my own. I think your attempts at portraying Metal Growling as some artistic endeavor is laughable, and your attempt to try and legitimize your own particular flavor of Metal as somehow inter-connected with Classical music as insecure. You can think what you want as to who has "won" the argument - go ahead and poll the forum as to their opinion of Death Metal and see just how much love you have generated for it. I mock it, first, because it was a pretty funny joke, after your equally funny assertion that growling in such a way as to not destroy your vocal chords is artistic. That just begged some mockery - and given that I mocked it with a children's program, I'll accept that as childish mockery.
> 
> I mock other things as well, related to classical music - particularly when it comes to Wagner's Tristan and Isolde, and how I am ready to kill off the two title characters just to end the incessant moaning about how they love each other so much they could die.
> 
> You are on a crusade to gain the acceptance of self-professed Classical music fans for your safe-growling Death Metal. I find that humorous. So I have fun with it. And as I have said before, your attempt to validate the "artistic" merit of safe-growling seems as ridiculous as Florence Foster Jenkins self-delusion that she had real vocal talent.


The problem with you is that you proclaim yourself as a genius with your words but you have no real intellect at all and it's sad. But even when I give you the defenition of artistic you completely ignored it. You are to ignorant to argue with though I will keep arguing as long as you do.


----------



## The Sound Of Perseverance

norman bates said:


> do you think you're representing myself?


I am not a regular forum goer so no I am not


----------



## Marschallin Blair

DrMike said:


> Oh contraire - they are just shallow, morbid imitations of this pioneer:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And I can understand him.


Oh, I know what you're saying.

-- Just like how some of the lyrical content of some 'spiritual' music is like this:






-- That 'kind' of hard-to-understand, crazy babble.

Got'cha.


----------



## Guest

Marschallin Blair said:


> Oh, I know what you're saying.
> 
> -- Just like how some of the lyrical content of some 'spiritual' music is like this:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -- That 'kind' of hard-to-understand, crazy babble.
> 
> Got'cha.


I love it. Yes - much of religious musical texts are exactly the way they are portrayed in a movie parody that pokes fun at religion!!! You have it pegged.


----------



## The Sound Of Perseverance

DrMike said:


> I love it. Yes - much of religious musical texts are exactly the way they are portrayed in a movie parody that pokes fun at religion!!! You have it pegged.


ignoring again really dude


----------



## Guest

The Sound Of Perseverance said:


> The problem with you is that you proclaim yourself as a genius with your words but you have no real intellect at all and it's sad. But even when I give you the defenition of artistic you completely ignored it. You are to ignorant to argue with though I will keep arguing as long as you do.


I don't know where you get that I am proclaiming myself as a genius with my words. I have made no such assertion. I speak/write the way I do as a result of using the English language for so long and reading literature. I don't know another way to write, but am flattered that you think I speak like an intellectual.

As to my intellect, that may very well be. Better men than you have pronounced worse upon me. Still, I take it with a grain of sand. I noticed you took the most lax definition of "artistic" that the Dictionary widget on an Apple computer provides. Why not the other ones - like the one that defines artistic as meaning aesthetically pleasing? The growling arguably fails that test.

But I wonder exactly where you have come up with the idea that I am ignorant? In other threads, I have given reasoned arguments as to why I find Death and Black Metal unappealing. You didn't like those arguments. At any rate, now you are just repeating yourself - we've had the whole argument over the merits of Death Metal growling in other threads. Rather than regurgitate my same arguments here, I am looking at the humor in it all. Because if you can't laugh at other people, who can you laugh at?

Get it? It's a joke. Come on - put yourself in our shoes. Go read discussions of various opera singers in the opera sub-forum. Go look at the love that members have for their favorite sopranos, or mezzo-sopranos, or tenors, or heldentenors, or baritones, or basses. Then along comes some teenager talking about the "artistic" merit of guys who have managed to learn how to "growl" along to their heavily distorted guitars and loud, often ridiculously fast drum lines, in such a way that they don't damage their vocal chords, and tell me that doesn't sound absurd to you. If you can't see the humor in that, well, you go on calling the rest of us ignorant.


----------



## Marschallin Blair

DrMike said:


> I love it. Yes - much of religious musical texts are exactly the way they are portrayed in a movie parody that pokes fun at religion!!! You have it pegged.


Um. . . who said anything about _religion_?

_Was that_ a parody?

Or was it a slice of life?

I see people like that at the beach all the time.


----------



## Guest

Marschallin Blair said:


> Um. . . who said anything about _religion_?
> 
> _Was that_ a parody?
> 
> Or was it a slice of life?
> 
> I see people like that at the beach all the time.


I'd try a different beach, then. I just returned from a very wonderful vacation at the beach where nobody bothered me, let alone anyone religious.

Oh, and yes, that was a parody. Oh, and the dead parrot isn't a real parrot, either. Seems like your a bit confused with Monty Python - wanted to clarify things there for you.

And I thought I had indicated that Cookie Monster was actually quite easy to understand.


----------



## Marschallin Blair

DrMike said:


> I'd try a different beach, then. I just returned from a very wonderful vacation at the beach where nobody bothered me, let alone anyone religious.
> 
> Oh, and yes, that was a parody. Oh, and the dead parrot isn't a real parrot, either. Seems like your a bit confused with Monty Python - wanted to clarify things there for you.
> 
> And I thought I had indicated that Cookie Monster was actually quite easy to understand.


You'll have to try really hard then; at least in California. Because I've seen this type of behavior everywhere from Coronado (where I live), to La Jolla, to Del Mar, to Carmel, to Newport Beach, to Santa Barbara-- 'A'-list real estate if ever there was.


----------



## The Sound Of Perseverance

DrMike said:


> I don't know where you get that I am proclaiming myself as a genius with my words. I have made no such assertion. I speak/write the way I do as a result of using the English language for so long and reading literature. I don't know another way to write, but am flattered that you think I speak like an intellectual.
> 
> As to my intellect, that may very well be. Better men than you have pronounced worse upon me. Still, I take it with a grain of sand. I noticed you took the most lax definition of "artistic" that the Dictionary widget on an Apple computer provides. Why not the other ones - like the one that defines artistic as meaning aesthetically pleasing? The growling arguably fails that test.
> 
> But I wonder exactly where you have come up with the idea that I am ignorant? In other threads, I have given reasoned arguments as to why I find Death and Black Metal unappealing. You didn't like those arguments. At any rate, now you are just repeating yourself - we've had the whole argument over the merits of Death Metal growling in other threads. Rather than regurgitate my same arguments here, I am looking at the humor in it all. Because if you can't laugh at other people, who can you laugh at?
> 
> Get it? It's a joke. Come on - put yourself in our shoes. Go read discussions of various opera singers in the opera sub-forum. Go look at the love that members have for their favorite sopranos, or mezzo-sopranos, or tenors, or heldentenors, or baritones, or basses. Then along comes some teenager talking about the "artistic" merit of guys who have managed to learn how to "growl" along to their heavily distorted guitars and loud, often ridiculously fast drum lines, in such a way that they don't damage their vocal chords, and tell me that doesn't sound absurd to you. If you can't see the humor in that, well, you go on calling the rest of us ignorant.


your opinion on death growling is not a fact therefore it does not pass or fail the 'test'. and how can you judge some ones talent like death growling when you have no idea how to do it? i do not disregard your other arguments i take them in to account and prove what is wrong, wrong. you're so stuck in your little world you refuse to take a peek into others. i haven't ever disrespected opera or classical music in any word or form i admit it takes a lot of diligence and skill but does that mean all other genres don't


----------



## Guest

Marschallin Blair said:


> You'll have to try really hard then; at least in California. Because I've seen this type of behavior everywhere from Coronado (where I live), to La Jolla, to Del Mar, to Carmel, to Newport Beach, to Santa Barbara-- 'A'-list real estate if ever there was.


Ah, there is your problem. Those are California beaches. I'd suggest another state. The Gulf of Mexico offers some lovely options. Me, personally - I prefer Gulf Shores, AL, or Destin, FL, but there are other nice ones. Ironically, here in the heart of the Bible belt, we don't have such distractions on our beaches. I suspect your issue is more one of the particular state - and I say this as a native Californian.


----------



## Marschallin Blair

DrMike said:


> Ah, there is your problem. Those are California beaches. I'd suggest another state. The Gulf of Mexico offers some lovely options. Me, personally - I prefer Gulf Shores, AL, or Destin, FL, but there are other nice ones. Ironically, here in the heart of the Bible belt, we don't have such distractions on our beaches. I suspect your issue is more one of the particular state - and I say this as a native Californian.


Then Panama City, Florida sure has a lot of 'splainin' to do, Lucy.


----------



## Guest

The Sound Of Perseverance said:


> your opinion on death growling is not a fact therefore it does not pass or fail the 'test'. and how can you judge some ones talent like death growling when you have no idea how to do it? i do not disregard your other arguments i take them in to account and prove what is wrong, wrong. you're so stuck in your little world you refuse to take a peek into others. i haven't ever disrespected opera or classical music in any word or form i admit it takes a lot of diligence and skill but does that mean all other genres don't


Ah - if I can't death growl, I can't judge it? I am horrible at baseball, but can still judge a home run from a foul ball. I have no idea how to play a vast majority of instruments, but can still tell when one sounds out of tune or hits a bad note.

Bottom line - I can judge anything. You don't have to accept my judgment (which you obviously don't) but my judgment is mine. Admittedly it doesn't amount to anything - these bands will continue doing what they do regardless of my judgment of them. But I have made my own judgment.

I used to live in a world similar to yours. I didn't listen to much Death or Black Metal, but was into metal in general. I had a friend whose favorite band was Kreator, another who loved Cannibal Corpse and Slayer and Danzig. After my metal phase, I listened to a lot of punk of various genres, even some of the hardcore. Metal is not foreign to me. But I go back and listen to a lot of that stuff and can't stand it now. Once I thought these guys were musical gods. I would dream of being able to play the bass like Les Claypool (still think he's pretty damn good). But that time is over. Metal is a genre for youth, when you think you know everything. Look around here - how many older members here profess any fondness for Metal above and beyond some nostalgic recollection? We get older and realizing that screaming, shouting, and growling aren't quite as wonderful vocal styles as we once thought they were. We no longer think the speed of a drummer is directly proportional to their virtuosity. And that fact that so-and-so really likes some classical music does not mean that the Metal that he writes is in any way similar to classical.

No, my opinion on death growling may not be a fact. How can you have a fact about that? Practically everything we discuss on this forum is opinion, and you are free to take or leave whatever anybody says. We all come to it with our own opinions and our own agendas. Your opinion is that death growling is artistic and that those who can do it are wonderfully skilled. I take a different opinion. I don't think it is artistic - and as I mentioned before, just because one can do a thing does not give that thing value. I can make really great fart noises with my hands. My wife finds nothing artistic in it whatsoever. She can't do them, but she doesn't particularly find me skilled because I can.

And you totally disregarded my other arguments. You have an agenda on here - to gain acceptance and some kind of praise for Death Metal and death growling. Fine. Whatever. How successful you are with that, who knows. You can disrespect opera and classical music on here. There is no rule that says only those who love opera and classical music and wish to praise it may participate in this forum. And no, skill and diligence are not exclusive to classical music. But just because that is so, it doesn't follow that all others do take skill and diligence.


----------



## Guest

Marschallin Blair said:


> Then Panama City, Florida sure has a lot of 'splainin' to do, Lucy.


Don't go to the wildly popular spots. You'll save yourself in a lot of ways.


----------



## Marschallin Blair

DrMike said:


> Don't go to the wildly popular spots. You'll save yourself in a lot of ways.


Oh no, I've been there in the_ off season_; the second week of _October_, in fact.

My sister lives by the beach in Sea Side, the gorgeous beach just up the beach from Panama City.

-- and, unfortunately, from my first hand experience, there were some lesser breeds in Panama City who were trying to save _me_.


----------



## Guest

Marschallin Blair said:


> Oh no, I've been there in the_ off season_; the second week of _October_, in fact.
> 
> My sister lives by the beach in Sea Side, the gorgeous beach just up the beach from Panama City.
> 
> -- and, *unfortunately, from my first hand experience, there were some lesser breeds in Panama City who were trying to save me*.


Well, I've never thought of lifeguards as lesser breeds . . .

Can't explain it. I have been to the beach numerous times - the only people that have ever interacted with me were just saying hi. For that matter, living in Birmingham, AL, the only ones on street corners, as well, are the anti-war protestors and the PETA protestors that populate what is known as 5 Points South.


----------



## Marschallin Blair

DrMike said:


> Well, I've never thought of lifeguards as lesser breeds . . .
> Can't explain it. I have been to the beach numerous times - the only people that have ever interacted with me were just saying hi. For that matter, living in Birmingham, AL, the only ones on street corners, as well, are the anti-war protestors and the PETA protestors that populate what is known as 5 Points South.


Oh, no: nothing of the sort. I love lifeguards. I have friends who are lifeguards.

I was refering to the importunate types, who, when waiting in line in a delicatessen by the beach, start barking at you about salvation. . . from the Easter Bunny, from defunct Canaanite Baals, from what-- I really can't imagine; as I was too busy talking to my friends and family about what was on the menu.

A modicumm of manners wouldn't be the worst thing to happen to them.


----------



## Guest

Marschallin Blair said:


> Oh, no: nothing of the sort. I love lifeguards. I have friends who are lifeguards.
> 
> I was refering to the importunate types, who, when waiting in line in a delicatessen by the beach, start barking at you about salvation. . . from the Easter Bunny, from defunct Canaanite Baals, from what-- I really can't imagine; as I was too busy talking to my friends and family about what was on the menu.
> 
> A modicumm of manners wouldn't be the worst thing to happen to them.


The lifeguard line was a joke.

But come on - do you really believe that those guys barking at you bear any resemblance to the average person of faith?


----------



## The Sound Of Perseverance

DeepR said:


> Listening to metal is like watching a bad horror movie. I just can't take it seriously as music.


well it is so whats your point?


----------



## The Sound Of Perseverance

DrMike said:


> Ah, there is your problem. Those are California beaches. I'd suggest another state. The Gulf of Mexico offers some lovely options. Me, personally - I prefer Gulf Shores, AL, or Destin, FL, but there are other nice ones. Ironically, here in the heart of the Bible belt, we don't have such distractions on our beaches. I suspect your issue is more one of the particular state - and I say this as a native Californian.


i have won! it seems you have given up


----------



## PetrB

Marschallin Blair said:


> Just like how some of the lyrical content of some 'spiritual' music is like this:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -- That 'kind' of hard-to-understand, crazy babble.


Lol, I'd forgotten about this. But, ye Gods and little fishes, is that a veritable tower of multitemporal polyphonic bipolar bilious babble, or what!?!


----------



## PetrB

Marschallin Blair said:


> Oh no, I've been there in the_ off season_; the second week of _October_, in fact.
> 
> My sister lives by the beach in Sea Side, the gorgeous beach just up the beach from Panama City.
> 
> -- and, unfortunately, from my first hand experience, there were some lesser breeds in Panama City who were trying to save _me_.


Your sister bears a canny resemblance to a packed beach bag and a couple of pairs of tennis shoes!


----------



## Guest

The Sound Of Perseverance said:


> i have won! it seems you have given up


Of course you have, of course you have. Now drink your warm milk and let's get you to bed.


----------



## Guest

PetrB said:


> Your sister bears a canny resemblance to a packed beach bag and a couple of pairs of tennis shoes!


I do like her pink hat.


----------



## The Sound Of Perseverance

DrMike said:


> Of course you have, of course you have. Now drink your warm milk and let's get you to bed.


hey well at least you admitted it maybe not full heartedly at all but it feels good to see the words.


----------



## Morimur

Stay away from Florida, too many sink-holes.


----------



## The Sound Of Perseverance

Morimur said:


> Stay away from Florida, too many sink-holes.


true that my aunt and uncles neighbor almost died in one


----------



## Guest

The Sound Of Perseverance said:


> hey well at least you admitted it maybe not full heartedly at all but it feels good to see the words.


That's right. Everybody likes your Dead Metal and safe-growling. Do you need any more ego stroking?


----------



## DiesIraeCX

Morimur said:


> Stay away from Florida, too many sink-holes.


Morimur, I urge you to keep this avatar pic. It's adequately creepy. I love it.


----------



## The Sound Of Perseverance

DrMike said:


> That's right. Everybody likes your Dead Metal and safe-growling. Do you need any more ego stroking?


i love you man keep up the good work!
btw my first song is going to be called 'grind their hearts!....... with kindness'


----------



## The Sound Of Perseverance

how about dave? he started off learning jazz and classical and went to Berkley and his music is pretty intricate.


----------



## Guest

Les Claypool is certainly a top notch slapper.


----------



## Marschallin Blair

DrMike said:


> The lifeguard line was a joke.
> 
> But come on - do you really believe that those guys barking at you bear any resemblance to the average person of faith?


Of course not.

-- Merely to Robert Tilton or Pat Robertson.


----------



## Marschallin Blair

PetrB said:


> Your sister bears a canny resemblance to a packed beach bag and a couple of pairs of tennis shoes!


Usually people say she looks like a taller version of a young Audrey Hepburn with a bob-- but I see your point. _;D_


----------



## Guest

gog said:


> Les Claypool is certainly a top notch slapper.


One of my top 3 favorite bassists, along with Matt Freeman of Operation Ivy/Rancid, and Peter Hook of Joy Division/New Order.


----------



## Marschallin Blair

PetrB said:


> Lol, I'd forgotten about this. But, ye Gods and little fishes, is that a veritable tower of multitemporal polyphonic bipolar bilious babble, or what!?!


'Naughtius Maximus,' you're too much. _;D_


----------



## PetrB

Morimur said:


> Stay away from Florida, too many sink-holes.


The whole state is just a big sand bar off the North American continent. Not really smart to live there, let alone build a home on it!

If we're in a cycle of rising oceans and that more or less slowly continues for another hundred or two hundred years, estimates are Florida will be _completely gone._ I doubt if it would be missed much.


----------



## Celloissimo

DrMike said:


> Peter Hook


I love Peter Hook, he's created some of the simplest but most effective and haunting basslines I've ever heard. Not to mention his bass tone is impeccable.


----------



## Guest

Celloissimo said:


> I love Peter Hook, he's created some of the simplest but most effective and haunting basslines I've ever heard. Not to mention his bass tone is impeccable.


I love how the bass actually dominated the guitar in Joy Division. One of the few bands from my younger years that I still listen to.


----------



## Celloissimo

DrMike said:


> I love how the bass actually dominated the guitar in Joy Division. One of the few bands from my younger years that I still listen to.


I definitely agree, though Bernard Sumner definitely was an essential part of the band. His best moment, in my opinion, is the solo in A Means to an End, one of the few times he actually rips out solo in the first place.


----------



## Varick

DrMike said:


> Please no. Describing them as vocals is an insult to actual vocalists everywhere. Even Barry Manilow is preferable to your growling and screaming. Hell, even Florence Foster Jenkins is preferrable:


Good Lord where did you find that? If that album title isn't the ultimate in irony, I don't know what is. And here's another question: How the hell did she ever get on the RCA label????



The Sound Of Perseverance said:


> I love how you refuse to think about my message and instead resort to childish mockery I think I've won this argument by default. You should think about being civilized in an arguement. I'm suprised none of your fellow classical music fans are mad at you. Remember when you're on a forum you are no only representing yourself but your fellow forum goers too.


TSOP: Lighten up bro. Life's too short. His reply with that Cookie Monster video was hysterical! Stop taking yourself so seriously. If you don't learn to laugh at yourself, your beliefs, your tastes, etc, you're going to have a very difficult time in this life.



The Sound Of Perseverance said:


> theres the problem i know every word of what they're saying in most songs. its difficult to get accustomed to. it took me around 5 months and its very artistic the very definition of artistic is having or revealing natural creative skill. and whats not creative about death growling? theres no one else who came up with anything like it before it was born.


So was Ozzy "artistic" by biting the heads off of rubber bats flung on stage by the crowd? After all, no one else had done that before?

Would I be artistic if I tried to urinate out of a helicopter hovering 100 feet above the ground into a wine glass in Central Park? After all, who's done that one before? And if I got even a little bit into the glass, well man, I'm here to tell ya... THAT'S skill!

Just because no one has done it before, doesn't necessarily make it good, creative, or artistic. You like Metal. Good for you. JUST because YOU like it, doesn't mean it's good. I like Tom Petty, but the man has never wrote anything more complex than a 4-chord progression. I like Corona with a lime on a hot summer day, but it's a crappy beer. I like Hostess Ho Ho's, but it's crappy food. It's OK to like things that aren't good. It doesn't make you a bad person.

Growling into a microphone or this:





It still sucks! It's OK if you like either though. It's even OK if you like both.

V


----------



## Varick

PetrB said:


> The whole state is just a big sand bar off the North American continent. Not really smart to live there, let alone build a home on it!
> 
> If we're in a cycle of rising oceans and that more or less slowly continues for another hundred or two hundred years, estimates are Florida will be _completely gone._ I doubt if it would be missed much.


Well, it is God's waiting room, so the oldies will just have to move to New Mexico instead. Plenty of room there for bad drivers who should have their license revoked years ago.

V


----------



## The Sound Of Perseverance

Varick said:


> Good Lord where did you find that? If that album title isn't the ultimate in irony, I don't know what is. And here's another question: How the hell did she ever get on the RCA label????
> 
> TSOP: Lighten up bro. Life's too short. His reply with that Cookie Monster video was hysterical! Stop taking yourself so seriously. If you don't learn to laugh at yourself, your beliefs, your tastes, etc, you're going to have a very difficult time in this life.
> 
> So was Ozzy "artistic" by biting the heads off of rubber bats flung on stage by the crowd? After all, no one else had done that before?
> 
> Would I be artistic if I tried to urinate out of a helicopter hovering 100 feet above the ground into a wine glass in Central Park? After all, who's done that one before? And if I got even a little bit into the glass, well man, I'm here to tell ya... THAT'S skill!
> 
> Just because no one has done it before, doesn't necessarily make it good, creative, or artistic. You like Metal. Good for you. JUST because YOU like it, doesn't mean it's good. I like Tom Petty, but the man has never wrote anything more complex than a 4-chord progression. I like Corona with a lime on a hot summer day, but it's a crappy beer. I like Hostess Ho Ho's, but it's crappy food. It's OK to like things that aren't good. It doesn't make you a bad person.
> 
> Growling into a microphone or this:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It still sucks! It's OK if you like either though. It's even OK if you like both.
> 
> V


dude thank you for reading my comments and making well though out responses to them though i lost this fight weeks ago. i have come to the conclusion that metal is not very complex but its the technique that makes it very hard to play. do you agree?


----------



## Iforgotmypassword

I'm always surprised when "metalheads" attempt to convert "classicalists" with some iron maiden track or a cheesy symphonic metal band. I feel like more people would be posting metal projects that are actually doing something new like these guys:





Definitely elements of metal, but highly influenced by minimalism with microtonal elements. I suppose the argument could be made that they're more influenced by jazz, but I feel at the heart it's more "classically minded"


----------



## The Sound Of Perseverance

Iforgotmypassword said:


> I'm always surprised when "metalheads" attempt to convert "classicalists" with some iron maiden track or a cheesy symphonic metal band. I feel like more people would be posting metal projects that are actually doing something new like these guys:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Definitely elements of metal, but highly influenced by minimalism with microtonal elements. I suppose the argument could be made that they're more influenced by jazz, but I feel at the heart it's more "classically minded"


convert? no. educate yes


----------



## Morimur

Iforgotmypassword said:


> I'm always surprised when "metalheads" attempt to convert "classicalists" with some iron maiden track or a cheesy symphonic metal band. I feel like more people would be posting metal projects that are actually doing something new like these guys:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Definitely elements of metal, but highly influenced by minimalism with microtonal elements. I suppose the argument could be made that they're more influenced by jazz, but I feel at the heart it's more "classically minded"


This 'music' reminds me of something... Oh yes, garbage.


----------



## Bulldog

The only connection is that both genres are music; beyond that, nothing. Move on.


----------



## drvLock

I read the whole thread and came into a conclusion: we are talking about metal on a classic music forum. Clearly we have people who like metal, and people who dislike metal. If you like the raspy shrieked vocals of black metal, good for you. If you like the beautifulness of Mozart's compositions, good for you too.

But saying one thing or another is a pile of crap, well, that just means you're just as single-minded as the person you're accusing of being single-minded.

Metal and Classical music are related, yes. Where did all the music theory used in heavy metal originate? 

Anyways, my point is: when I listen to Dimmu Borgir's "Progenies of the Great Apocalypse", I just have an eargasm. Why? Heavy hitting black metal by some great musicians, with some great orchestrated parts performed by the Prague Philharmonic Orchestra. 'nuff said.


----------



## Ludric

The connection between metal and classical? Perhaps it's this piece of music:


----------



## redyellow

The connection between Metal and Classical music.

I talk as a heavy metal musician who grew up in a classical family. My mother was a violinist and my father was an organist. Often as a child, I grew up listening to Mozart, Beethoven, Bach, Paganini, Chopin and the like, yet unlike the starting topic stated, of self-proclaimed 'Metal Heads' converting to classical, I was one of the few who went from Classical to Metal.

As a matter of fact, my favourite Opera is Verdi: II Trovatore - Vedi, le fosche notturne spoglie. Incidentally, it was covered by a band called Therion. In this cover, the band simply took the original piece and added electric guitars, and drums.

Anyways, back to the connection between classical music and heavy metal music. Heavy Metal music has often been about image and theatrics in a sense. Looking towards Alice Cooper who performed grotesque and gruesome acts, with the inclusion of a guillotine, and then you look towards acts like Lordi who put on costumes to add emphasize. 

When you look towards classical music that are very visual and theatrical, you'd normally think of Opera music, which is very theatrical. The Phantom of the Opera and Sweeney Todd are definite examples that could be defined as a link towards Metal. Very theatrical, and in terms of Sweeney Todd, grotesque, gruesome, and shocking.

In terms of the music itself, Metal music has, as already been noted as have a number of different genres, with the only things linking each together is the drum techniques, and the guitar. In terms of vocals, metal bands have experimented with many different styles of vocals, ranging from clean, to operatic, to the harsh guttural screams. Instrumentation, the guitar is thought to be at the center of the music, providing powerful riffs and long, speedy guitar solos, however, in a number of metal sub genres, that's not necessarily the case. Sub genres like Folk Metal, Industrial/Cyber Metal and Symphonic Metal, the guitar has mainly been used as a background instrument to add contrast to the symphonic, electronic or folk sound which in these genres are the dominant sounds. Classical music depends on what the composer desires as a dominant and reserved sound, just like what a metal band desires for it's desired sub genre.


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## Morimur

redyellow said:


> The connection between Metal and Classical music.
> 
> I talk as a heavy metal musician who grew up in a classical family. My mother was a violinist and my father was an organist. Often as a child, I grew up listening to Mozart, Beethoven, Bach, Paganini, Chopin and the like, yet unlike the starting topic stated, of self-proclaimed 'Metal Heads' converting to classical, I was one of the few who went from Classical to Metal.
> 
> As a matter of fact, my favourite Opera is Verdi: II Trovatore - Vedi, le fosche notturne spoglie. Incidentally, it was covered by a band called Therion. In this cover, the band simply took the original piece and added electric guitars, and drums.
> 
> Anyways, back to the connection between classical music and heavy metal music. Heavy Metal music has often been about image and theatrics in a sense. Looking towards Alice Cooper who performed grotesque and gruesome acts, with the inclusion of a guillotine, and then you look towards acts like Lordi who put on costumes to add emphasize.
> 
> When you look towards classical music that are very visual and theatrical, you'd normally think of Opera music, which is very theatrical. The Phantom of the Opera and Sweeney Todd are definite examples that could be defined as a link towards Metal. Very theatrical, and in terms of Sweeney Todd, grotesque, gruesome, and shocking.
> 
> In terms of the music itself, Metal music has, as already been noted as have a number of different genres, with the only things linking each together is the drum techniques, and the guitar. In terms of vocals, metal bands have experimented with many different styles of vocals, ranging from clean, to operatic, to the harsh guttural screams. Instrumentation, the guitar is thought to be at the center of the music, providing powerful riffs and long, speedy guitar solos, however, in a number of metal sub genres, that's not necessarily the case. Sub genres like Folk Metal, Industrial/Cyber Metal and Symphonic Metal, the guitar has mainly been used as a background instrument to add contrast to the symphonic, electronic or folk sound which in these genres are the dominant sounds. Classical music depends on what the composer desires as a dominant and reserved sound, just like what a metal band desires for it's desired sub genre.


All this to say that there's no connection, other than that both are considered music.


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## drvLock

redyellow said:


> Instrumentation, the guitar is thought to be at the center of the music, providing powerful riffs and long, speedy guitar solos


 I beg to differ. Before venturing into electronic and ambient music, I was a metal guitarist and learned that metal relies much more on drums and bass than actually on guitars. They set the tone of the song and also the speed at which it's played. My teacher would call the guitars as "perfumaria" (roughly translated as perfumery), which means they are there as complimentary instruments. But, that's MY OPINION on this. Of course you have many genres and bands where the guitars are the main instrument. Lars Ulrich didn't play neither for Ron McGovney, or Cliff Burton, or Jason Newsted or Rob Trujillo bass lines, he played and plays following James Hetfield guitar lines.

Bands like Black Label Society, Dream Theater, and the solo acts Joe Satriani and Yngwie Malmsteen, for example, also have guitars as their "main instruments".

On the other hand, most bands from the Second Wave of Black Metal didn't praise guitars too much, instead considering them just as equal as the other instruments, this being, as tools to achieve the dissonance present on their sounds.


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## mra8698

Have you listened to any kind of tech death, or 'technical death metal'? A band I've been getting into lately, called Allegaeon has a couple of 'classical' guitar pieces on the acoustic and they meld them with the metal. The song I'm talking about is called Appassionata Ex Machinea. Here's a link if you want to check it out. 



 There's also a band called Revocation and their lead guitarist/vocalist started off by playing jazz guitar before he'd even heard of metal. Now he's in one of the best tech death/thrash crossover bands that I've ever listened to. He uses a wide variety of jazz chords and odd tempos and what not, you should definitely check them out too. Metal isn't just about brute force, there is definitely some beauty and technical ability involved.


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## GuvsHammerstein

I know this was posted ages ago, but could you write the song names?
Almost all the videos have been taken down.


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## Retyc

mra8698 said:


> Have you listened to any kind of tech death, or 'technical death metal'? A band I've been getting into lately, called Allegaeon has a couple of 'classical' guitar pieces on the acoustic and they meld them with the metal. The song I'm talking about is called Appassionata Ex Machinea. Here's a link if you want to check it out.
> 
> 
> 
> There's also a band called Revocation and their lead guitarist/vocalist started off by playing jazz guitar before he'd even heard of metal. Now he's in one of the best tech death/thrash crossover bands that I've ever listened to. He uses a wide variety of jazz chords and odd tempos and what not, you should definitely check them out too. Metal isn't just about brute force, there is definitely some beauty and technical ability involved.


most of tech death is cliched bs.



Morimur said:


> This 'music' reminds me of something... Oh yes, garbage.


Funny enough that you like Krallice... both bands are Mick Barr projects...


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## norman bates

mra8698 said:


> Have you listened to any kind of tech death, or 'technical death metal'? A band I've been getting into lately, called Allegaeon has a couple of 'classical' guitar pieces on the acoustic and they meld them with the metal. The song I'm talking about is called Appassionata Ex Machinea. Here's a link if you want to check it out.
> 
> 
> 
> There's also a band called Revocation and their lead guitarist/vocalist started off by playing jazz guitar before he'd even heard of metal. Now he's in one of the best tech death/thrash crossover bands that I've ever listened to. He uses a wide variety of jazz chords and odd tempos and what not, you should definitely check them out too. Metal isn't just about brute force, there is definitely some beauty and technical ability involved.


a problem I have with a lot of metal today is that is too much about technical ability. Look how fast I can play that. Hey look how many time signatures can I change in few bars. Even the fact that there's a genre called "technical death metal" says a lot about this, as if the fact that the music is hard to play is a merit.


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## pcnog11

All modern music has its roots from classical music. I am certain that people convert from country music, jazz or others to classcial music as well. Heavy metal is an unlikely conversion and it seems to be extreme with classical music. However, if this is an established trend, let people convert to it. Maybe they have found themselves?


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## Retyc

norman bates said:


> a problem I have with a lot of metal today is that is too much about technical ability. Look how fast I can play that. Hey look how many time signatures can I change in few bars. Even the fact that there's a genre called "technical death metal" says a lot about this, as if the fact that the music is hard to play is a merit.


There is nothing wrong about high technicality itself, but it becomes practically irrelevant when everything else is boring, rehashed ****...


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## Armanvd

Check This . Rachel Barton Pine Talking About Connection Of Metal And Classical.
http://www.classicfm.com/artists/rachel-barton-pine/metallica-solo-on-violin/


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## PresenTense

starthrower said:


> It's not the case for myself. I can't stand metal music. I grew up with progressive rock, and Led Zeppelin. Yes, I know Zeppelin gets labeled an early metal band, but I disagree. They were coming from blues and folk influences.


I can't stand metal either


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## yetti66

I remember seeing Rachel Barton at a punk or hard-core show in a Chicago club in the early 90s. I can't remember but she has good taste.

Metal and classical both have viceral appeal to me - different than jazz and rock which I like also. Preference is the indie - stoner metal, not the speed metal and techno. Kyuss is the original, weedpecker, Monolord, Montgofliere, and GWAR shows were as good as it gets for live entertainment


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## David OByrne

Well it's about as diverse as classical is:

https://mapofmetal.com/


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## Phil loves classical

The link between metal and classical? The Beatles White Album. Helter Skelter is considered by some the first metal song, and you have Piggies, a pseudo-classical song, on the same album.


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## estress

I'm not going to comment on the theoretical similarities of the two genres since both are so diverse. Two things in common between a lot of the Metal musicians and Classical composers that I like are their meticulous and 'anything goes' kind of approach to composition and their inclination toward airtight escapist/otherworldly aesthetics.

Examples:










I would be happy to listen to the second track when I'm in the mood for something like Mahler's second symphony.


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## Agamemnon

Here are my 2 cents (and my first post here)...

First, I don't think the connection is the complexity of the music. Metal is an heir of hard rock which is a heir of blues which is a subgenre of jazz. Therefore metal and jazz share some traits which are not common for pop music: whereas pop is focused on a singer who sings a song and has some accompaniment; jazz and metal/hardrock are focused on all musicians equally so also all musicians are given space to play solos and exhibit their technical abilities.

Yet there is some connection between classical and metal/hardrock for which Beethoven is famous (often is said that Beethoven is the 'hard rock' composer of classical music): think of the famous intro of Beethoven's 5th Symphony (ta-ta-ta-TAAAAA) which is very powerful, dark, ominous. Traditional pop doesn't have these dramatic sounds (but is characteristically cheerful and uptempo for dancing or sad and slow for crying/drinking), but hard rock strives for exactly that symphonic dramatic impact. Especially metal can also be very theatrical which reminds one of opera. 

Conclusion: metal resembles classical (symphonic/orchestral) music for aiming at a dramatic, overwhelming impact ('wall of sound'), but musically it resembles jazz and not classical music.

PS. My favorite death metal (or grind core) band, The Red Chord, took its name from Berg's opera Wozzeck so there is a connection anyway!  And for some reason its (jazzy-infused) frenetic music reminds me of Beethoven's beautifully frenetic String Quartet No. 11...


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## johankillen

Do anyone have a metal song with tonality harmonics? I would be interesting


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## Guest




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## azizapoggi

I am a classical singer, sing in a metal band and am a Voice Instructor. I was raised on metal such as Judas Priest and Iron Maiden. Both singers use classical techniques in their singing. Thus has made classical singing in metal popular. In my band; symphonic metal band Aria Flame; I sing both pop and classical vocals in it and we've performed in Europe where its very popular there. I am sure there are more insights than why its popular but coming from the genre itself, that is my opinion on it.


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## Bradius

I grew up loving classical and had no interest in rock or pop music. I got introduced to AC/DC & Black Sabbath in my late teens. I became a metal head and started a metal band with some friends. Years later, I still love metal (Sabbath!!!), but classical is still my first love & most of my music listening time.


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## Larkenfield

Certain classical overtures can sometimes seem to have the same power as heavy metal, IMO. So there's a connection, such as the power of those overtures by Wagner or Berlioz. They can be quite powerful end thrilling.


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## ST4

I live in the best of both worlds, I don't consider one objectively over the other.

Anyway, the connections between metal and classical are so surface level that it's barely an afterthought. Same thing often with prog rock.

But if you want to see a group that actually teeters on the edge of these genres (and jazz too), _Art Zoyd_ is your band! :cheers:


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## childed

the connection is S&M.
live album by Metallica, with The San Francisco Symphony conducted by Michael Kamen.


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## georgedelorean

I'd say a lot of it relates to subject matter and execution. Think about the topics both deal with: death, life, mankind, all things esoteric, passion, punishment, faith or lack thereof, loss and redemption, love and hate, and so forth. As for how both do business, they're both grand, or at least make an attempt to be grand in scope of sound and technicality, skill level, and onward. I've always considered both to be opposite sides of the same coin.


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## Casebearer

Most metal is onedimensional and boring. Most classical classical music too. So I see a connection there.


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## ST4

Casebearer said:


> Most metal is onedimensional and boring. Most classical classical music too. So I see a connection there.


Yeah, but really it's the case with almost all music anyway. We have to filter through it to find ourselves throughout all of the trash. :tiphat:


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## Minori Aiko

I think what people have previously stated is the case.
Like jazz, which pushed into more complex and deeper directions and became un-popularized, metal is now doing the same.

A great example is how metal became a race of aggression and who can have more in depth raw emotion of anger and despair in their music. This lead to death metal and black metal. After that technical death metal followed and now is transforming into a more "progressive state" as well as black metal recently becoming all "atmospherical black metal".

Most of the bands in tech death are obsessed with their technical ability hence the genre name. The past 10ish years up until recently it's been a race who can be the most technical and musically demanding because surely that will make you more musically superior and have more musical knowledge! But bands found out that leads to lack of substance and depth, and now they are trying to pursue how to make their music have more substance. This also in turn leads listeners to try to find music with more substance and that often leads them to classical music.

Although hints of classical is spotted everywhere in extreme forms of metal, sprinkled around of different ideas, there is one band I feel that has pushed into something new and refreshing that has tried to bridge these genres.

This song/piece starts of slow and through a total of 12 minutes slowly builds up and because much more aggressive and shifts through different emotions, whether it be joy, sorrow, or anger. 



 Even if you enjoyed the first half but started to dislike it as it went further on, I recommends listening to it all the way through. It may not be as great as Bach or Chopin etc. but it definitely shows a highly progressive turn in direction within extreme metal.

This is an obviously more aggressive song but it has a great turn of events halfway through. It also isn't as long and is just a song (9 minutes). Otherwise the album this song is from has only two other pieces that have multiple movements and at least 20-30 minutes. 



 I think this link, links the playlist to the whole album so if you want to listen to the whole thing, it definitely shows the relation.


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## PeterPechinin

Excuse me? Do you know anything about Metal to say it's "obvious poor taste"?


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## ManuelMozart95

Even though Metal is not my favourite genre I do like some bands, in specific Iron Maiden, Black Sabbath, Judas Priest and some songs of Metallica and Megadeth.
If we include Hard Rock I like Deep Purple, Yes, Rush, King Crimson, etc.


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## 1996D

I would say only Metallica's And Justice for All has any sort of development that could be compared to Classical. Queen's Bohemian Rhapsody is the other song that comes to mind.


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## Guest

Jupiter said:


> Why is it that a lot of converts to classical music begin their journey in heavy metal? I could be overstating the case, of course, but this seems to be a pattern.
> 
> I've nothing against heavy metal (or any other kind of metal), but it would be more logical for popular music converts to come from the art rock/electronica genre (some of which can be admittedly "heavy"). Or am I not listening to metal "correctly"?


Do a lot of converts begin their journey in heavy meatal? I suspect that the OP is no longer around to offer some evidence - so can anyone else comment?

Speaking personally, my 'journey' has not been a linear progression from one thing to the next, since I had access to pop, classical and rock simultaneously from an early age. It's true that my determined investigation into specific composers, periods and forms has only come in my later years, but I previously mined prog, alt, electronica, post-punk/new wave and barely touched metal at all. I still listen to music across this range now. I haven't "arrived" at classical.


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## millionrainbows

Led Zeppelin had heavy dramatic, operatic elements, and the volume easily exceeded any orchestra. The bombast, the drama, the virtuoso elements are all derived from past bombast, when opera was the "only game in town."

The minor keys, the heavy rhythmic statements, are very similar to what an effective orchestra does. Yngwie Malmsteen is well aware of this, so was Deep Purple.

There's not much connection harmonically nowadays, as much metal is riff-oriented, and has no chords. Chords sound like crap anyway, through heavy-distorted amps.


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## Simon Moon

ST4 said:


> I live in the best of both worlds, I don't consider one objectively over the other.
> 
> Anyway, the connections between metal and classical are so surface level that it's barely an afterthought. Same thing often with prog rock.
> 
> But if you want to see a group that actually teeters on the edge of these genres (and jazz too), _Art Zoyd_ is your band! :cheers:


Not only Art Zoyd, but Univers Zero, Aranis, Thinking Plague, Henry Cow, Far Corner, Motor Totemist Guild, and most of the rest of the bands in the avant-prog subgenre of prog.

As you stated, bands of this genre teeter on the edge between classical and prog, but only if the classical in question is the classical of the latter half of the 20th century, and the contemporary eras. Classical listeners that are not fans of late 20th century and contemporary classical will not find much to like with avant-prog.

Many more bands in this subgenre:

https://www.progarchives.com/subgenre.asp?style=36


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## Jacck

classical music fans and heavy metal music fans have a lot in common, according to a study
https://www.mic.com/articles/87385/...al-fans-and-classical-music-lovers#.PoWIbXgnm
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...l-classical-music-lot-common-study-finds.html


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## Kjetil Heggelund

My connection is that I have liked both for ages, classical a bit longer. I agree that the energy is similar sometimes. Beethoven and Stravinsky rock and Judas Priest and many metal bands "go classical" at times. I'm glad there is diversity in music and I tend to like most of it. Music expresses many different feelings I can relate to.


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## Eva Yojimbo

I've similarly been a fan of both for a long time. Discovered both in my early teens, but it was generally my love for metal that lead me into classical. I've always heard a very hard-to-define similarity between them, but I've struggled to express what it is. While I think it's possible to hit on certain aspects that both sometimes share (theatricality, dynamics, virtuosity, etc.), I think the biggest connection between them is that both are more instrumental-oriented rather than vocal-oriented, and the vocals that are involved in both are used more as an instrument rather than just a means of hook-and-lyrics delivery. Metal also tends to eschew the formulaic verse-chorus-verse mode of most popular music, and its tendency towards elongated forms also recalls classical music. Both tend to prefer to take you on "journeys" with the music rather than just delivering a hook in the verse, another in chorus, and rinsing-repeating. Even the metal that does feature verse-chorus-verse form tends to have sections, e.g. long bridges, that are often marked by tempo and/or dynamic contrasts that are more similar to classical than anything in pop music. 

So I think they're similar in that abstract, but that's about where it ends. Metal doesn't have the complex harmonies of classical, and it rarely uses any actual classical forms (so no, eg, exposition/development/recapitulation), so the more specific we get the less similar they are; but I can absolutely buy that metal and classical fans often share a similar psychological profile that's about openness to new experiences outside the mainstream. A good chunk of the early appeal of both genres to me was that they were so different from everything else I grew up listening to (well, some metal was an extension of classic rock, but the further I dove, the farther away from those roots it got). What's been interesting for me is finding examples of classical that almost prefigure many of the tenants of metal. The extreme dissonance of Beethoven's Grosse Fugue, the driving rhythm of those late Bruckner scherzos, or sections of The Rite of Spring; Stravinsky's own complex rhythmic experiments call to mind much of what I love about a band like Meshuggah, etc.


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## SalieriIsInnocent

I came to metal from my classical upbringing. It was probably after hearing Eddie Van Halen, Randy Rhoads, and Brian May (Queen wasn't really metal, but May had undeniable metallic touches) that served as an introduction to the harder edged metal I would eventually love. I was already playing guitar, but I wasn't really into rock or metal; and one day I heard Eruption/You Really Got Me on the radio, and I don't think my mouth was closed the whole time. Then I found Randy Rhoads, and it was like even more of what impressed me about Eddie Van Halen, but more of the classical edge. I'm not really a metalhead, and as a guitarist, I've kind of moved onto other things. I still appreciate a lot of metal groups. It's a dynamic music and there's a lot of interesting ideas and talent to be found. It's not everyone's cup of tea, but there's plenty of flavors that might change your mind.


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## millionrainbows

Metal's harmonic base is outlining pentatonic scales with fifths. Other melodic structures are used, also outlined with fifths.

In this sense, it is more related to Gregorian chant than classical. Basic thread flaw.

Surface features: drama, explosive climaxes, guys with horned helmets. spears, swords, animal-skin outfits.


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## Eva Yojimbo

millionrainbows said:


> Metal's harmonic base is outlining pentatonic scales with fifths. Other melodic structures are used, also outlined with fifths.


Although that depends on the actual band. The pentatonics with fifths is mostly contained in riff-oriented metal that utilizes "power chords," but not all metal falls into that category, especially the more experimental and progressive stuff. One thing I like about a new band like Ulcerate is they almost never use a typical power chord, usually either tritones or diminished 4ths (and it's always surprised me why more metal bands didn't use tritones for chords rather than 5ths given how its so notorious for sounding evil).


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## norman bates

Eva Yojimbo said:


> Although that depends on the actual band. The pentatonics with fifths is mostly contained in riff-oriented metal that utilizes "power chords," but not all metal falls into that category, especially the more experimental and progressive stuff. One thing I like about a new band like Ulcerate is they almost never use a typical power chord, usually either tritones or diminished 4ths (and it's always surprised me why more metal bands didn't use tritones for chords rather than 5ths given how its so notorious for sounding evil).


?
To me the tritone is literally ubiquitous in metal. Even the very first song that is usually considered metal (Black sabbath) is based on that. Besides the fifth for power chords it could be the most used interval in the genre, especially from the period of thrash metal bands like Metallica and Slayer to the most extreme genres like death and black metal...


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## Eva Yojimbo

norman bates said:


> ?
> To me the tritone is literally ubiquitous in metal. Even the very first song that is usually considered metal (Black sabbath) is based on that. Besides the fifth for power chords it could be the most used interval in the genre, especially from the period of thrash metal bands like Metallica and Slayer to the most extreme genres like death and black metal...


The Black Sabbath progression is the tritone but its played as an "arpeggio/broken chord" rather than a "chord" (sorry if I didn't make that distinction clear). Most every song I've learned from the major bands predominantly use the 5th for chords and, occasionally, the 4th. If you have some recommendations for some of the major metal bands (I'm sure it's utilized more in underground/progressive circles) using a lot of tritones as chords (not as arpeggios or progressions), let me know.


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## Xisten267

Jupiter said:


> Why is it that a lot of converts to classical music begin their journey in heavy metal? I could be overstating the case, of course, but this seems to be a pattern.
> 
> I've nothing against heavy metal (or any other kind of metal), but it would be more logical for popular music converts to come from the art rock/electronica genre (some of which can be admittedly "heavy"). Or am I not listening to metal "correctly"?


My path has been the opposite: I came from classical and then started to enjoy metal a lot. My bridge has been this:


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## Haabrann

Eva Yojimbo said:


> So I think they're similar in that abstract, but that's about where it ends. Metal doesn't have the complex harmonies of classical, and it rarely uses any actual classical forms (so no, eg, exposition/development/recapitulation), so the more specific we get the less similar they are; but I can absolutely buy that metal and classical fans often share a similar psychological profile that's about openness to new experiences outside the mainstream. A good chunk of the early appeal of both genres to me was that they were so different from everything else I grew up listening to (well, some metal was an extension of classic rock, but the further I dove, the farther away from those roots it got).


Well said, and this is my sentiment also. The hard rock/metalheads I hung out with as a teenager were simply more into _music_ than (many) other peer groups, and more likely to start bands. Especially after mainstream metal was killed off by grunge, and more extreme forms of metal really diversified and took off creatively in the underground/semi-underground. At least where I'm from, it was more often than not metalhead teenagers who branched off into prog, jazz, folk music and so on and on.

There's also an interesting element of class here. I've noticed that in the U.S metal has a reputation for being the music of the maladjusted, of social outcasts and moms basement dwellers. Not so in Scandinavia, which I believe has the higest density of metal bands. But still it is firmly working class music, both in origins and in terms of listening crowds. I guess the aggressiveness, tribalism, and maybe working class conceptions of masculinity comes into play here. We used to throw stones on the windows of school evening classical instrument classes.

Now that's pretty far removed from the refined world of educated, cultured, middle/upper class of classical music. How this ties in with a link between the two, I'm not sure about, maybe it's irrelevant.


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## norman bates

Eva Yojimbo said:


> The Black Sabbath progression is the tritone but its played as an "arpeggio/broken chord" rather than a "chord" (sorry if I didn't make that distinction clear). Most every song I've learned from the major bands predominantly use the 5th for chords and, occasionally, the 4th. If you have some recommendations for some of the major metal bands (I'm sure it's utilized more in underground/progressive circles) using a lot of tritones as chords (not as arpeggios or progressions), let me know.


Sorry, I didn't see your reply before... Well, I meant the augmented fourth in general, and in that way is everywhere (Metallica, Megadeth, Slayer, I'm talking of extremely famous bands, not underground ones). It's hard to find a more famous metal song than Master of puppets, and there are a lot of augmented 4ths there. 
But if you mean just strummed tritones maybe it's a bit harder because being metal based on distortion* the feel of "power" of the fifth (the aptly named power chord) doesn't work that well with other intervals.

*it's strange to think that a whole genre would probably not exist without a effect, I've never considered this thing before


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## Simon Moon

Many of the descriptions of metal I'm reading here, seem to be describing pretty basic metal, and not the more progressive and experimental subgenres.

Seems to me, that most prog-metal for example, goes well beyond 'pentatonic scales with fifths'.

There are quite a few technical-metal bands, for example, that have quite a bit of jazz fusion influence, and a much broader use of scales besides pentatonic.

Here are some examples:


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## Simon Moon

And a few more.


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## Eva Yojimbo

norman bates said:


> Sorry, I didn't see your reply before... Well, I meant the augmented fourth in general, and in that way is everywhere (Metallica, Megadeth, Slayer, I'm talking of extremely famous bands, not underground ones). It's hard to find a more famous metal song than Master of puppets, and there are a lot of augmented 4ths there.
> But if you mean just strummed tritones maybe it's a bit harder because being metal based on distortion* the feel of "power" of the fifth (the aptly named power chord) doesn't work that well with other intervals.
> 
> *it's strange to think that a whole genre would probably not exist without a effect, I've never considered this thing before


Yes, I was referring to "strummed tritones." I also think distortion is one of the reason that fifths are preferred for most chords when the notes are played simultaneously, but I do think some modern bands are showing it can work with other intervals.


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## Eva Yojimbo

Simon Moon, I actually mentioned this caveat in an earlier post: "...that (metal being based on fifths and pentatonics) depends on the actual band. The pentatonics with fifths is mostly contained in riff-oriented metal that utilizes "power chords," but not all metal falls into that category, especially the more experimental and progressive stuff."

Of the bands you posted, I've been a fan of Spiral Architect (shame they only released one album) and Cynic for a very long time. Thank You Scientist is a fairly new discovery for me, but they're excellent as well. Another new(er) favorite I've been revisiting is Haken:





There's still plenty of "power chord" 5ths in this too, but they play around with it more, like going from the augmented fifth to the fifth.


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## Haabrann

Now, let it be crystal clear that I deeply respect any sane and ''normal'' form(s) of religion. And I don't believe in any such thing as military conflict actually caused by religion.

That said, one's just gotta love the old-timey fire-and-brimstone stuff. So beware and be cautious on a Saturday evening - worldly temptation and corruption is bad for us, no matter our profession of faith, or lack thereof.


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## violadude

There's some metal I really love, and I obviously love classical music, but to be honest I don't see too much similarity between the two. Each has their own strengths so I don't really get the need to connect them in some way. Some people bring up the fact that metal music tends to have more complex structures than simply verse and chorus. Well, I suppose, but most of the metal I hear is still based on repetition of riffs over a vocal line...there's just more sections per song than an average pop song. It's not quite the same as the way classical music pieces are continually evolving rather than being riff or groove based. Sometimes I see use of dissonance or complex harmony as a way of connecting the two, but I really don't hear harmony that's all that dissonant or complex in most metal music, it's just louder. Most metal I've heard (maybe with the exception of avant-metal of the type that Simon Moon posts) has much more in common with other forms of popular music rather than classical music. That's not to disparage it at all, I'm a big fan of some metal acts. But I really don't see the similarity. Completely different beasts imo.

Also, I really can't stand those "metal transcriptons" of classical pieces. I just think they sound goofy and don't do anything to elevate the classical pieces they are attempting to imitate. I like metal for what it does in the metal genre, not what they try to pull from classical music.


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## TheMusicalScorpio

from my experience as a predominant heavy metal fan, I go from one extreme to the other. One minute I might be listening to Detox by SYL and then im listening to Come Let Us Go Back To God by Sam Cooke. Its a mix ive never been able to explain myself.


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## RogerWaters

The following is one big hypothesis, and I would welcome critical analysis. Some of it is slightly off the cuff, but, nevertheless, a product of many years of digestment.

I would raise the hypothesis that what metal has in common with 'classical' music (as if 'classical' music has any necessary and sufficient conditions itself which pick out all and only those composers who are variously considered classical composers by listeners and critics!) but not with Jazz, rock or pop is:

-Organised 'Riff Salad' composition. Some of the best metal is not just A: [Riff 1, Riff 2] B: [Riff 1, Riff 2] C: [Riff 3], D: [Riff 2]. Instead, there are more riffs to a 'section', enabling an experience that traverses more musical territory in arriving at a culmination. There are also codas and introductions, i.e. A: [Riff 0!] B: [Riff set 1, Riff set 2] C: [Riff set 1, Riff set 2] D: [Riff set 3], E: [Riff set 2] F: [Riff 0 returns - and powerfully, given the preceeding journey]

Alternatively, if a metal track does take a more streamlined structure of A: [Riff 1, Riff 2] B: [Riff 1, Riff 2] C: [Riff 3], D: [Riff 2], Riff 1 and Riff 2 won't be completely 'different' musical ideas that rely on a stark transition from verse to chorus. Riff 1 will evolve into Riff 2, or Riff 2 will be a sub-species of Riff 1. In other words, there will be more organic flow to even simple musical structures. This is in contrast to the more or less self-contained 'riffs' of rock or popular music, which act more like hip-hop loops in their static nature.

-Culmination. Some of the best metal builds to a climactic point in a way that is, I think, different from pop music. Much pop music bounces between A: [verse/chorus] and B: [verse/chorus] where the chorus in section B has the same impact as it did in A. There is no greater signifiance to the chrous in B given what has come before. In metal, culmination is more real, giving it the 'epic' feel it often possesses.

Much Jazz I have heard is relatively 'homogenous', in the sense it does not seek to build to a point of significance but is instead more like a jam. Any time jazz sets out to be more 'structured', in this sense, it tends to sound more 'classically flavoured'.

-Reverence/transcendence. Now this criterion is less about musical structure (although this is relevant, for instance in returning to a powerful coda that was also used as the introduction of a track) than it is about some or all of the following slightly more 'subjective' characteristics: atmosphere, intent, seriousness. Just like Bach's Mass in b minor, Emperor's 'In the Nightside Eclipse' (second link) is not about dancing, socialising, or romantic sentimenality (much pop music). Nor is it about 'coolness' and bop (much jazz). It is more like a 'musical offering'.

This might be counterintuitive. you might ask: "Isn't metal about rebellion, even metaphysical rebellion?" Yes. But despite it's atheistic leanings, metal does celebrate something prior (or more 'essential') to the unvierise than human comfort and 'fun': It celebreates struggle, nature, cosmic vastness, and even transcendance (from the human-all-too-human, coming to terms with what is dark in life but in the Niezschean sense of vindicating it, not wollowing as in Goth music).

Examples:

- 



 (Morbid Angel: death metal)

- 



 (Emperor: black metal)

- 



 (Suffocation: death metal)

- 



 (Setherial: black metal)

- 



 (Incantation: death metal)

- 



 (Burzum: black metal)

- 



 (Immolation: death metal)

And, if I may say so, metal's progression died in the mid 1990s with the development of death and black metal. What has come after is simply a 'spicing' up of pre-existing genres. I.e. adding flutes to black metal music, mixing black metal with shoe-gaze which is an old genre, making death metal more and more 'technical' (read: structurally incoherent and wanky) but infusing some jazz sensibilities. Etc.

Having said all this, I think that everything I described above, bar some the aesthetic stuff, can be applied to progressive rock more than classical. I.e. much described above is a feature of progressive rock bands like Yes, ELP, King Crimson, Van der graaf Generator, etc. But, of course, these bands were influenced by classical music, too.


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## RogerWaters

violadude said:


> Some people bring up the fact that metal music tends to have more complex structures than simply verse and chorus. Well, I suppose, but most of the metal I hear is still based on repetition of riffs over a vocal line...there's just more sections per song than an average pop song. It's not quite the same as the way classical music pieces are continually evolving rather than being riff or groove based.


This is a big part of the question, and what I was getting at in my post above as 'organised riff salad' composition.

I tend to view the more complex structures of metal _as a move towards_ the way classical music pieces are continually evolving rather than being riff or groove based.

Metal is still riff-based, but there are more riffs, thus the music depends _less _on static groove - like a hop-hip loop does. The gap between 'static' riff/groove based composition and continuous composition is decreasing, even though it is by no means fully bridged at all.

Or is this wrong-headed?

Also: The whole Philip Glass, minimalism thing is just as 'static' as the links i've provided - perhaps _even more so_. So If any amount of dependence on repitious phrases as part of a wider structural whole disqualifies a piece of music from being classically influenced, I would think much post-modern classical music is incorrectly labelled.


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## Camiz

Dear all

I am not that familiar with Metal music (in the ToDo list ...).

Recently, my guitar teacher said I should try to play the song "Nothing else matters" by Metallica, which should certainly be considered a Metal group. There are real connexions between this beautiful ballad and some classical pieces (for instance "Jeux Interdits"), and it was a pleasure to play this song on a classical guitar.

Below is a possible rendition :guitar: (amateur level)






Are there other ballads in the Metal field that would, from your opinion, fit with classical instruments ?

:wave:


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## FrankE

I tested this hypothesis by straw poll outside a local tiki dive bar.
I recall the words "off" and "weirdo", otherwise found no strong evidence supporting the hypothesis.


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## SanAntone

There is no inherent connection between Metal and Classical music. I mean, any Pop or Rock which has higher aspirations than dance music or catchy ditties has the same connection. _Pet Sounds_, _Close to the Edge_, _The Wall_, _Tommy,_ _Bitches Brew_, _Electric Ladyland_ etc.


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## Andante Largo

Apocalyptica, album Cult from 2000.

First track from the album:


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