# Overtures in Relation to Their Operas



## bharbeke (Mar 4, 2013)

Sometimes, an overture is much better than the opera it is in front of. Other times, it will be representative of the opera or even worse than the rest of the opera.

What are some examples that stand out to you of either a major disparity in quality between the overture and entire opera or times when both are exquisite?


----------



## Don Fatale (Aug 31, 2009)

Meistersingers Overture. Simply perfect not just as an overture but the way it leads into the first scene in the church.


----------



## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Most of the great operas with overtures have great overtures, but the character and function of the overture certainly changed over time. Baroque and classical overtures tended to be rather generic, with composers such as Handel and Rossini stealing from themselves and reusing their curtain-raisers for different operas. These pieces became more specific in character in the later eighteenth and nineteenth centuries, utilizing tunes from the opera and setting characteristic moods. Nobody did this better than Wagner, whose overtures and preludes (his preferred term) are among the greatest orchestral works of the Romantic era, but there are wonderfully dramatic overtures from Beethoven, Weber, Verdi, and others.

I'm having trouble thinking of a poor opera with a great overture, or the reverse. I suppose the overtures to many of the bel canto era operas wouldn't be terribly interesting if played alone. I love _Norma_, but would I listen to just the overture?


----------



## joen_cph (Jan 17, 2010)

_Don Giovanni _ is somewhat a milestone, a superb example, and rich in content, I think.


----------



## howlingfantods (Jul 27, 2015)

Woodduck said:


> I'm having trouble thinking of a poor opera with a great overture, or the reverse.


Rienzi. Excellent overture (and excellent aria, Allmachtiger Vater, using much of the same musical content as the overture) but a pretty dull opera.


----------



## Orfeo (Nov 14, 2013)

I agree with Woodduck. I would add Massenet and Tchaikovsky as those who wrote masterful overtures that match the overall quality of their operas (Prokofiev too I'm inclining to include). As far as great or effective overtures, but not so great operas are concerned, some people (or critics) would point out Lalo's "Le Roi d'Ys", although I find the opera quite underrated. Magnard's "Guercœur" has a very arresting overture, although the opera itself is banal and meandering in places.


----------



## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

howlingfantods said:


> Rienzi. Excellent overture (and excellent aria, Allmachtiger Vater, using much of the same musical content as the overture) but a pretty dull opera.


Ah, yes. I have to admit, though, that I've never heard the whole opera, and I don't think we have a good recording yet or someone would be recommending it. I wonder how it would come across with truly great singers?


----------



## Orfeo (Nov 14, 2013)

Woodduck said:


> Ah, yes. I have to admit, though, that I've never heard the whole opera, and I don't think we have a good recording yet or someone would be recommending it. I wonder how it would come across with truly great singers?


Sawallisch's Orfeo recording is often highly regarded.
-->http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...nzi&qid=1447450397&ref_=sr_1_1&s=music&sr=1-1


----------



## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

One of the most masterly overtures is what Verdi set to Rigoletto. It's very short but sums up the whole terrible tragedy of Gilda and the Duke.


----------



## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

DavidA said:


> One of the most masterly overtures is what Verdi set to Rigoletto. It's very short but sums up the whole terrible tragedy of Gilda and the Duke.


Strictly speaking that one's a prelude. 

N.


----------



## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

The Conte said:


> Strictly speaking that one's a prelude.
> 
> N.


Yes if you want to be pedantic about it. I did say it was very short. It is still masterly.


----------



## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

Great overture - poor opera: Oberon by Weber

N.


----------



## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

The Conte said:


> Great overture - poor opera: Oberon by Weber


It does have a couple of superb arias for Rezia and Huon. If it were all as good as that...


----------



## Don Fatale (Aug 31, 2009)

Some would say *I Vespri Siciliani*'s overture is far better than the opera, although I think the opera is underrated.

*La Forza Del Destino*'s overture is, for me, the best part of the opera by far!


----------



## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

Don Fatale said:


> Some would say *I Vespri Siciliani*'s overture is far better than the opera, although I think the opera is underrated.


Great, another Vespri fan. I fail to understand why other people don't fully appreciate the typical Verdian tunefulness of this piece. The libretto may be somewhat rambling and the end anticlimatice, but the music is superb.

N.


----------



## Don Fatale (Aug 31, 2009)

The Conte said:


> Great, another Vespri fan. I fail to understand why other people don't fully appreciate the typical Verdian tunefulness of this piece. The libretto may be somewhat rambling and the end anticlimatice, but the music is superb.
> 
> N.


There is no piece that encapsulates Verdi's musical palate more than the Vespri Overture.


----------



## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

Don Fatale said:


> There is no piece that encapsulates Verdi's musical palate more than the Vespri Overture.


That's a bold assertion, however, one that I have to agree with. The work is mid Verdi and may not have the compactness of the "trilogia", but then it is a French grand opera. Perhaps of all Verdi's operas it is the one that most sums up what went before it as well as prefiguring what came after.

N.


----------



## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Don Fatale said:


> There is no piece that encapsulates Verdi's musical palate more than the Vespri Overture.


The overture is fine, after that, waiting for hours to come to " Merce, Dilette Amiche"


----------



## Diminuendo (May 5, 2015)

I really love overtures. And preludes too  Usually you get a good image of what your going to get later on. When you listen to a opera the second time it's interesting to listen the overture or prelude and what later musical themes might be in it. Overtures and preludes get you to the right mood so when singing starts your ready to enjoy it to the full.


----------



## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

Pugg said:


> The overture is fine, after that, waiting for hours to come to " Merce, Dilette Amiche"


Such is the received wisdom, but there are plenty of Verdian 'big melodies' before the fifth act. The ensembles at the ends of acts three and four would not be out of place in any of the other mid period operas. The libretto is too long and sprawling (but without much actually taking place), but the music is wonderful even if uneven.

N.


----------



## sospiro (Apr 3, 2010)

Don Fatale said:


> *La Forza Del Destino*'s overture is, for me, the best part of the opera by far!


You wouldn't have liked the recent Calixto Bieito version at ENO then.

It opened with the original 1862 prelude, rather than the overture for the 1869 revision.


----------



## Meyerbeer Smith (Mar 25, 2016)

The Makropulos Case. Fantastic overture :






Turgid, tuneless opera.


----------



## Bellinilover (Jul 24, 2013)

Pugg said:


> The overture is fine, after that, waiting for hours to come to " Merce, Dilette Amiche"


The thing I'd be waiting for is "In braccio alle dovizie." I love that aria.


----------



## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

Mefistofele, Mefistofele, Mefistofele (It wouldn't allow me to put it in once!)


----------



## Belowpar (Jan 14, 2015)

nina foresti said:


> Mefistofele, Mefistofele, Mefistofele (It wouldn't allow me to put it in once!)


Look away Don. F


----------



## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

nina foresti said:


> Mefistofele, Mefistofele, Mefistofele (It wouldn't allow me to put it in once!)


Beautiful opera, lots of drama ( my humble opinion)


----------



## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Wagner's Overture to Die Meistersinger is the greatest opera overture ever written. Not only can it stand alone as an orchestral masterpiece (with a tagged on ending)but is completely related to musical themes that follow in the opera.

Brilliant, Herr Wagner!!!


----------



## gardibolt (May 22, 2015)

By and large (with some exceptions) Rossini's overtures are better than his operas, to my mind.


----------



## Meyerbeer Smith (Mar 25, 2016)

gardibolt said:


> By and large (with some exceptions) Rossini's overtures are better than his operas, to my mind.


I think the problem with Rossini's operas is that they're seldom (!) integrated art works in the French or Wagnerian manner; the operas are vehicles for music. Take, say, _Bianca e Falliero_; the quartet in the second act is sublime - Stendhal thought it one of the best things Rossini ever wrote - but the opera is very long and very static. It doesn't have enough content to justify the length, and a lot of the music is average Rossini.


----------



## Sloe (May 9, 2014)

hpowders said:


> Wagner's Overture to Die Meistersinger is the greatest opera overture ever written. Not only can it stand alone as an orchestral masterpiece (with a tagged on ending)but is completely related to musical themes that follow in the opera.
> 
> Brilliant, Herr Wagner!!!


I agree completely. Usually I prefer when the operas goes straight to the action but the overture to Die Meistersinger is just great.


----------



## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

hpowders said:


> Wagner's Overture to Die Meistersinger is the greatest opera overture ever written. Not only can it stand alone as an orchestral masterpiece (with a tagged on ending)but is completely related to musical themes that follow in the opera.
> 
> Brilliant, Herr Wagner!!!


And how wonderfully natural, yet delightfully surprising, the way it morphs at curtain rise into a Lutheran chorale worthy of Bach. Notice that the opening phrase of the chorale is essentially the same as the opening phrase of the overture. The whole score is Wagner's assertion that he is not only a musical innovator but also a worthy successor to the "Deutsche Meister" to whom the whole opera is a tribute. Tradition and revolution together: a great message for any artist who aspires to be the next new thing.


----------



## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Sloe said:


> I agree completely. Usually I prefer when the operas goes straight to the action but the overture to Die Meistersinger is just great.


Yes and as Herr Woodduck writes, it is absolutely striking how the overture ends and morphs right into the Lutheran Hymn that begins the opera. Much more striking than the disappointing tagged on concert ending found at orchestral concerts.

I grew up listening to the concert overture. I was shocked, but delighted to hear the overture for the first time, some years ago, "in its natural habitat." Now I don't want to hear it without Act One of the opera following it.


----------



## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Then there are also the beautiful preludes to acts one of Tristan and Parsifal; the latter always seems to put me into a metaphysical trance.

For me the prelude to act one of Parsifal perfectly sets the mood for the great noble Act One monolog of Gurnemanz soon to follow, the latter, which just so happens to be my favorite moment of Parsifal.


----------



## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

Same here. The Vorspiel is absolutely mesmerizing. I just finished listening to Solti's version.


----------



## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

The great Prelude to Act One of Parsifal sets the mood for this magical moment from Act One.


----------



## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

^^^ Such sublime music. 

People who feel that they've died and come back have spoken of moving toward a light. I'd like to think that if that light could be heard, it would sound like this.


----------



## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Woodduck said:


> ^^^ Such sublime music.
> 
> People who feel that they've died and come back have spoken of moving toward a light. I'd like to think that if that light could be heard, it would sound like this.


Yes. And how disappointing it is when one doesn't hear a Gurnemanz worthy of the music.

My favorite is Kurt Moll on the Karajan set.


----------



## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

Woodduck said:


> ^^^ Such sublime music.
> 
> People who feel that they've died and come back have spoken of moving toward a light. I'd like to think that if that light could be heard, it would sound like this.


Yes, yes, I feel the same way.
Beautifully expressed.


----------

