# Joyce DiDonato: I'm not crazy about her like everyone else seems to be.



## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

She is a beautiful woman, a marvelous actress, a very skilled singer. Why isn't she my darling like most of the rest of the operatic world? Like many of today's opera singers she has a somewhat generic sounding voice... not an instantly recognizable sound. I also find her inferior to the great Jennifer Larmore who to my ears really sounded like a mezzo, not just someone with a mezzo range who has no hint of chocolate to the sound of her voice. To my ears singers from the past, Larmore, Horne, Troyanos, Podles, Baltza, Kasarova are more impressive in the roles she sings and I would prefer if choosing a performance to listen to. Do I lack good taste or do you agree with me.


----------



## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

I think you have a point.

I first became aware of her when William Christie brought the fabulous Luc Bondy production of Handel's *Hercules* to the Barbican in London. The whole production, musically and dramatically, was a revelation, and DiDonato was a knock-out. The way she charted Dejanira's passion, jealousy and eventual disintegration into madness was nothing short of genius. Histrionically _and_ vocally, she was absolutely superb.

When her disc of Handel arias (_Furore_) came out, I snatched it up eagerly, but was rather disappointed. Very little of that stage personality came across on record, and the voice just sounded rather anonymous.

To publicise the record, she had embarked on a concert tour of much of the same material, and I booked to see her when she came to the Barbican in London. The impression, yet again, was far in excess of anything that came across on disc. Thrillingly exciting in the fiery stuff, meltingly poignant in the slow stuff, the concert was really exciting.

She is the complete musician and performer, but the basic material (ie the voice) is just a little lacking in that vital individuality that goes into making a great recording artist. I would still go out of my way to see her live, but I haven't bought a single one of her recital discs since that first Handel disc.


----------



## Cavaradossi (Aug 2, 2012)

I've been lucky to see her Rosina, Cenerentola, and Maria Stuarda live on stage. While I would agree that it might not be the most distinctive voice, her performances are a marvel of vocal skill and a joy to behold. I can assure you that she is worth every bit of star power for which she is credited.


----------



## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

GregMitchell said:


> When her disc of Handel arias (_Furore_) came out, I snatched it up eagerly, but was rather disappointed. Very little of that stage personality came across on record, and the voice just sounded rather anonymous.


I grabbed that disc and also was disappointed. But I like her Non più mesta very much in this recital on You Tube.


----------



## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

I am glad that I am not alone. We are lucky to have her and would love to see her live, but as I mostly listen to recordings I am not that big of a fan. I hear her recent Maria Stuarda ( I believe it was that queen) was top notch.


----------



## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Cavaradossi said:


> I've been lucky to see her Rosina, Cenerentola, and Maria Stuarda live on stage. While I would agree that it might not be the most distinctive voice, her performances are a marvel of vocal skill and a joy to behold. I can assure you that she is worth every bit of star power for which she is credited.


I actually agree with you. Of course that slight lack of vocal charisma on disc wouldn't have even been an issue before recordings existed. She thoroughly deserves her star status, because she is so terrific live, which is really where it should count!


----------



## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Seattleoperafan said:


> I am glad that I am not alone. We are lucky to have her and would love to see her live, but as I mostly listen to recordings I am not that big of a fan. I hear her recent Maria Stuarda ( I believe it was that queen) was top notch.


Yes indeed. Her Maria Stuarda got raves recently. I very nearly got to see it at Covent Garden, but was unable to go in the end. Most terribly disappointed.


----------



## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Florestan said:


> I grabbed that disc and also was disappointed. But I like her Non più mesta very much in this recital on You Tube.


I like this too - very much indeed, but this has a touch more vocal glamour, don't you think? Shame about the dress!


----------



## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

Seattleoperafan said:


> She is a beautiful woman, a marvelous actress, a very skilled singer. Why isn't she my darling like most of the rest of the operatic world? Like many of today's opera singers she has a somewhat generic sounding voice... not an instantly recognizable sound. I also find her inferior to the great Jennifer Larmore who to my ears really sounded like a mezzo, not just someone with a mezzo range who has no hint of chocolate to the sound of her voice. To my ears singers from the past, Larmore, Horne, Troyanos, Podles, Baltza, Kasarova are more impressive in the roles she sings and I would prefer if choosing a performance to listen to. Do I lack good taste or do you agree with me.


Do you lack good taste you say? Not with that stellar list of wonderful mezzos.
Do I agree with you? No I don't. 
Her singular interpretation in Mary Stuarda would have been sufficient enough to convince me but her Cenerentola and Barbiere roles were also wonderful as she imparts a certain "charm" within her singing. To me, she is the real deal and besides, like you yourself said, "she's a marvelous actress, a beautiful (well I'd probably say adorable and cute) woman, and a very skilled singer" (hello? doesn't that count for something?). What more could anyone ask for?
IMO, just because a voice is not instantly recognizable should not be the barometer of the popularity of a singer (can you say Garanca?). There are other factors in play.
Anyway, you just don't happen to prefer her to other mezzos and that's fine and to be respected.
If we all agreed on our likes and dislikes, what a boring world it would indeed be.


----------



## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

GregMitchell said:


> I like this too - very much indeed, but this has a touch more vocal glamour, don't you think? Shame about the dress!


Very nice, seems a bit more towards the Cecilia Bartoli way of doing it. Yeah the dress looks like what Angelina would wear before she was at her marriage ceremony.

Here is my all time favorite (barring of course Maria Callas): Non più mesta--von Stade, but I can't compare objectively unless perhaps I find von Stade in a recital, as I am enamored of the Abbado/ von Stade performance of this opera.


----------



## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Florestan said:


> Very nice, seems a bit more towards the Cecilia Bartoli way of doing it. Yeah the dress looks like what Angelina would wear before she was at her marriage ceremony.
> 
> Here is my all time favorite (barring of course Maria Callas): Non più mesta--von Stade, but I can't compare objectively unless perhaps I find von Stade in a recital, as I am enamored of the Abbado/ von Stade performance of this opera.


Without the Cecilia aspirates, the grimacing and body shakes. Not that much like Bartoli at all really.

I agree with you about Von Stade, though. She is an ideal Cenerentola in that Ponnelle film. I wish she'd recorded the role.


----------



## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

GregMitchell said:


> Without the Cecilia aspirates, the grimacing and body shakes. Not that much like Bartoli at all really.
> 
> I agree with you about Von Stade, though. She is an ideal Cenerentola in that Ponnelle film. I wish she'd recorded the role.


Right, not a lot of Bartoli at all, but towards that direction a bit.

Yes, but I found the Abbado recording with Theresa Berganza quite satisfying as an alternate to von Stade, and it shares three of the singers with the Abbado DVD, all of whom I love to hear.


----------



## Badinerie (May 3, 2008)

Seattleoperafan said:


> To my ears singers from the past, Larmore, Horne, Troyanos, Podles, Baltza, Kasarova are more impressive in the roles she sings and I would prefer if choosing a performance to listen to. Do I lack good taste or do you agree with me.


Some performers do come over the floats better in person than they do on record its true.People who saw Callas sing live at her best probably say the same about her recordings, Not that DiDonato is in her class of course but I would Love the chance to see her live. Oh...and good luck in booking tickets to see that list of Soprano's in the quote


----------



## Retired (Feb 15, 2015)

Rather than critique those that don't move you...why not just go listen to those that do? It may surprise you to know that opera singers are not trying to please everyone...a fool's errand.


----------



## Bellinilover (Jul 24, 2013)

As I've said in previous posts, I think that Di Donato's voice is a perfect example of what the late opera/vocal commentator John Steane would have called a "central" or "centrist" timbre. By this he means a perfectly well-schooled voice that, as far as _timbre_ is concerned, tends toward the "bland" or "generic" side. But if this is Di Donato, then she's in good company, because other singers Steane put in the "centrist" category were Elisabeth Rethberg, Renata Tebaldi, and Robert Merrill (actually, I think he said Merrill's _interpretations_ were generic, not his voice). This doesn't preclude their having an _attractive_ timbre; it just isn't a particularly _distinctive_ one. In Di Donato's case, I think technique, musicality and acting ability more than make up for any lack of "thrill" in her tone.

Di Donato is clearly a "high and bright" mezzo rather than a "dark and rich" one. In fact, it was my impression that she was planning on gradually "converting" to soprano, but apparently this isn't true.

I'm going to see her in the Met's HD _Donna del Lago_ next month and am looking forward to it.


----------



## Albert7 (Nov 16, 2014)

Her voice is legendary to me honestly. Zampieri was colorless in timbre but flawless in her depictions. Didonato is a wonderful stylist for me.


----------



## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

I don't like to admit it, but I'm inclined to agree with you.


----------



## Albert7 (Nov 16, 2014)

Bellinilover said:


> As I've said in previous posts, I think that Di Donato's voice is a perfect example of what the late opera/vocal commentator John Steane would have called a "central" or "centrist" timbre. By this he means a perfectly well-schooled voice that, as far as _timbre_ is concerned, tends toward the "bland" or "generic" side. But if this is Di Donato, then she's in good company, because other singers Steane put in the "centrist" category were Elisabeth Rethberg, Renata Tebaldi, and Robert Merrill (actually, I think he said Merrill's _interpretations_ were generic, not his voice). This doesn't preclude their having an _attractive_ timbre; it just isn't a particularly _distinctive_ one. In Di Donato's case, I think technique, musicality and acting ability more than make up for any lack of "thrill" in her tone.
> 
> Di Donato is clearly a "high and bright" mezzo rather than a "dark and rich" one. In fact, it was my impression that she was planning on gradually "converting" to soprano, but apparently this isn't true.
> 
> I'm going to see her in the Met's HD _Donna del Lago_ next month and am looking forward to it.


Now this is definitely elegant and very moving to me:


----------



## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Bellinilover said:


> As I've said in previous posts, I think that Di Donato's voice is a perfect example of what the late opera/vocal commentator John Steane would have called a "central" or "centrist" timbre. By this he means a perfectly well-schooled voice that, as far as _timbre_ is concerned, tends toward the "bland" or "generic" side. But if this is Di Donato, then she's in good company, because other singers Steane put in the "centrist" category were Elisabeth Rethberg, Renata Tebaldi, and Robert Merrill (actually, I think he said Merrill's _interpretations_ were generic, not his voice). This doesn't preclude their having an _attractive_ timbre; it just isn't a particularly _distinctive_ one. In Di Donato's case, I think technique, musicality and acting ability more than make up for any lack of "thrill" in her tone.
> 
> Marvelous reply. I can find no fault in any of what you said except about Tebaldi, who had to my ears a marvelously distinctive sound as well as one of the most beautiful ever heard on the opera stage ( excepting, of course, quite a number of flat high notes).


----------



## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Okay, I almost completely surrender. I just watched Anna Bolena with Joyce. She is one of the greatest actresses/ stage presences since Callas. She has a gorgeous voice which she employs with great artistry. She is lovely to behold. She is the real deal on stage and deserves her reputation. But.... as I mostly listen to opera rather than watch it, I find that the lack of a signature sound prevents me from wanting to listen to her as I would say Marilyn Horne, Ewa Podles, or Sutherland. I am a big fan now and would love to see her live.


----------



## Albert7 (Nov 16, 2014)

Seattleoperafan said:


> Okay, I almost completely surrender. I just watched Anna Bolena with Joyce. She is one of the greatest actresses/ stage presences since Callas. She has a gorgeous voice which she employs with great artistry. She is lovely to behold. She is the real deal on stage and deserves her reputation. But.... as I mostly listen to opera rather than watch it, I find that the lack of a signature sound prevents me from wanting to listen to her as I would say Marilyn Horne, Ewa Podles, or Sutherland. I am a big fan now and would love to see her live.


And after seeing her version of Le Comte Ory I was smitten.


----------



## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

BalalaikaBoy said:


> I don't like to admit it, but I'm inclined to agree with you.


what I mean is, I love Joyce as a singer, but her voice isn't particularly colorful or awe inspiring on it's own. she is; however, a stunning actress with a versatile range and excellent technique, so she more than makes due.


----------



## Bellinilover (Jul 24, 2013)

Seattleoperafan said:


> Okay, I almost completely surrender. I just watched Anna Bolena with Joyce. She is one of the greatest actresses/ stage presences since Callas. She has a gorgeous voice which she employs with great artistry. She is lovely to behold. She is the real deal on stage and deserves her reputation. But.... as I mostly listen to opera rather than watch it, I find that the lack of a signature sound prevents me from wanting to listen to her as I would say Marilyn Horne, Ewa Podles, or Sutherland. I am a big fan now and would love to see her live.


I didn't know Joyce was in _Anna Bolena_. Or do you mean _Maria Stuarda_?

Come to think of it, John Steane also said that Cheryl Studer had a "centrist" timbre (see my thread on Studer).


----------



## sabrina (Apr 26, 2011)

I like Joyce di Donato, but not as much as other sopranos or mezzos. Her singing is more in the soprano sound, but being a mezzo, of course she is not among the best sopranos, and being soprano-like mezzo, she is not among the best mezzos either. Uff...
I am trying to understand why I like her more as a person/artist than as an opera singer. It's not easy!


----------



## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

In the 19th century French repertoire there is a type of voice known as a 'Falcon', named after Cornélie Falcon, which is intermediate between a soprano and mezzo. In her later years, particularly with her French opera collections, Callas had become that type. I think that DiDonato is also.


----------



## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

On April 11th the Berlin Philharmonic will be doing Berlioz' Damnation of Faust with Joyce DiDonato and it will be simulcast on the Digital Concert Hall - it is already on my calendar!


----------



## Camillorf (Jul 18, 2014)

I'm a huge fan of Joyce. She is my absolute favourite singer at the moment, by a clear mile.

I only really got into opera about a year ago. Before that, I would listen to arias and find the singing beautiful, but that was it. That in itself would not hold me. I had watched Le Nozze di Figaro that was broadcast in cinemas in 2012 by Glyndebourne opera, and again, I sort of like it, but it didn't hold me (strangely, Le Nozze is one of my favourite operas today). It was at the beginning of last year that I decided to watch again a complete opera. I saw the Met's 2007 production of the barber of Seville that was available on YouTube, with Joyce DiDonato as Rosina. That's when EVERYTHING changed! I already knew some of the arias, but to hear them in the context of the opera and sung and acted well by the singers was a whole different experience. Having said that, I didn't enjoy every opera that I saw after that, and I find that it's usually because of the singers. They can make a beautiful sound, but it might still sound boring, with no dramatic involvement. I appreciate that you don't like her in her recital discs, and to be fair I don't usually listen to recital discs (with the one exception of her Stella di Napoli). I prefer listening to full operas. Unfortunately she has not recorded many operas (I think she's only done baroque operas, but I'm not really into that (yet!)). I saw her live last year at her Stella di Napoli concert at the Barbican and she surpassed all my expectations. Not only was the sound even more beautiful live, her lower register sounded much richer and she gave so much character to each aria, it was breathtaking! I have enjoyed every opera that I have watched with her because I totally buy her characters. I remember the first time I watched La Cenerentola, I thought it was okay. Then when I saw Joyce in the role, it was almost like watching a different opera. This is not to say that she is the only singer I enjoy seeing and hearing, there are many others too, but to me she is in a different league.

Just out of curiosity, when you say her sound is not very distinctive, do you mean you can't clearly tell who it is singing? I find it weird that so many of you seem to agree on that, because the second I hear the first note, I can tell it's Joyce singing straight away, and I can't say that about many singers.


----------



## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

to be honest I like Joyce Didonato the most when she chooses to venture into _soprano_ rep. 
ex: singing the role of Elisabetta in Maria Stuarda. so much _intensity_, I love it!


----------



## Camillorf (Jul 18, 2014)

I agree that she is better in soprano roles, but not because of the dramatic intensity. I think she can be just as dramatic in mezzo roles (see her Romeo in I Capuleti e I Montecchi, for example). I actually think her voice _sounds_ better in low soprano/high mezzo roles.

One thing I forgot to mention in my previous post is that I much prefer her live recordings to her studio recordings. In the clip below, she is singing Vitellia's aria from la Clemenza di Tito in a live concert:





It's so intense, I love it! This is her studio version:





It's not bad, but I find it a lot less exciting.


----------



## Albert7 (Nov 16, 2014)

I think that Joyce is exceptional to be honest. She doesn't need to be a powerful hammer like Callas. Understated drama is preferred here you know.


----------



## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

albertfallickwang said:


> I think that Joyce is exceptional to be honest. She doesn't need to be a powerful hammer like Callas. Understated drama is preferred here you know.


I'm not sure I understand what you're implying here. It's hardly complimentary - to either lady! To suggest thatone of the most _musical_ singers of the post war era was just a powerhouse hammering out notes is to misunderstand her art completely. But to suggest that DiDonato is the mistress of understatement is far off the mark too. I've seen her live and I can tell you she was a long way from being understated. Intense, dramatic, thrilling, yes, but understated, not unless necessary. And thank the lord for that!

Of course Callas could be the mistress of understatement too (the 1958 Covent Garden *La Traviata* anyone?), as can DiDonato. They are both fully rounded artists, with a wide palette to draw on.


----------



## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Camillorf said:


> I agree that she is better in soprano roles, but not because of the dramatic intensity. I think she can be just as dramatic in mezzo roles (see her Romeo in I Capuleti e I Montecchi, for example). I actually think her voice _sounds_ better in low soprano/high mezzo roles.
> 
> One thing I forgot to mention in my previous post is that I much prefer her live recordings to her studio recordings. In the clip below, she is singing Vitellia's aria from la Clemenza di Tito in a live concert:
> 
> ...


That seems to be the main problem. Little of her undeniably exciting stage presence comes over in her records. At least not from my experience of her. She is absolutely terrific live. Not so much on record.


----------



## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

albertfallickwang said:


> Understated drama is preferred here you know.


speak for yourself. understatement is boring


----------



## Albert7 (Nov 16, 2014)

BalalaikaBoy said:


> speak for yourself. understatement is boring


True but would someone want to kill a fly using a hammer or mallet every time?


----------



## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

albertfallickwang said:


> True but would someone want to kill a fly using a hammer or mallet every time?


continuing with your analogy, you don't go to see an opera about people killing flies. you go to the opera to see people _slaying dragons_


----------



## Albert7 (Nov 16, 2014)

BalalaikaBoy said:


> continuing with your analogy, you don't go to see an opera about people killing flies. you go to the opera to see people _slaying dragons_


Hmm... my tastes in opera run closer in favor of Baroque opera where all we need is vocal pyrotechnics... like in Vivaldi. They don't even need to act but just sing lengthy arias and tons of improvisation and then I'm a happy guy.

Dragon slaying I leave for my huge dose of Game of Thrones watch-a-thon.


----------



## Couac Addict (Oct 16, 2013)

GregMitchell said:


> That seems to be the main problem. Little of her undeniably exciting stage presence comes over in her records. At least not from my experience of her. She is absolutely terrific live. Not so much on record.


My thoughts, as well.


----------



## Albert7 (Nov 16, 2014)

Couac Addict said:


> My thoughts, as well.


I respectfully disagree. I find a few of her albums rather enthralling.


----------



## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

albertfallickwang said:


> I respectfully disagree. I find a few of her albums rather enthralling.


May I ask if you have ever heard her live?


----------



## Albert7 (Nov 16, 2014)

GregMitchell said:


> May I ask if you have ever heard her live?


Not yet but I haven't had the chance to get back to my hometown to see her live and direct. And she was that good on records, then the live should be equal if not better.


----------



## Bellinilover (Jul 24, 2013)

Camillorf said:


> I'm a huge fan of Joyce. She is my absolute favourite singer at the moment, by a clear mile.
> 
> I only really got into opera about a year ago. Before that, I would listen to arias and find the singing beautiful, but that was it. That in itself would not hold me. I had watched Le Nozze di Figaro that was broadcast in cinemas in 2012 by Glyndebourne opera, and again, I sort of like it, but it didn't hold me (strangely, Le Nozze is one of my favourite operas today). It was at the beginning of last year that I decided to watch again a complete opera. I saw the Met's 2007 production of the barber of Seville that was available on YouTube, with Joyce DiDonato as Rosina. That's when EVERYTHING changed! I already knew some of the arias, but to hear them in the context of the opera and sung and acted well by the singers was a whole different experience. Having said that, I didn't enjoy every opera that I saw after that, and I find that it's usually because of the singers. They can make a beautiful sound, but it might still sound boring, with no dramatic involvement. I appreciate that you don't like her in her recital discs, and to be fair I don't usually listen to recital discs (with the one exception of her Stella di Napoli). I prefer listening to full operas. Unfortunately she has not recorded many operas (I think she's only done baroque operas, but I'm not really into that (yet!)). I saw her live last year at her Stella di Napoli concert at the Barbican and she surpassed all my expectations. Not only was the sound even more beautiful live, her lower register sounded much richer and she gave so much character to each aria, it was breathtaking! I have enjoyed every opera that I have watched with her because I totally buy her characters. I remember the first time I watched La Cenerentola, I thought it was okay. Then when I saw Joyce in the role, it was almost like watching a different opera. This is not to say that she is the only singer I enjoy seeing and hearing, there are many others too, but to me she is in a different league.
> 
> *Just out of curiosity, when you say her sound is not very distinctive, do you mean you can't clearly tell who it is singing? I find it weird that so many of you seem to agree on that, because the second I hear the first note, I can tell it's Joyce singing straight away, and I can't say that about many singers.*


Your last point is a great one. Sometimes we go on about a singer not having an "instantly recognizable voice" and forget the obvious: that to someone who is a regular listener of a certain singer, that singer's voice probably _is_ instantly recognizable. In other words, one's ability to identify a singer naturally depends upon one's having heard the singer often.

Yet I do think it's true that _objectively speaking_ some singers have less "distinctive" sounds than others. Maybe other posters can help me out as to the possible reasons for this, but in Joyce's case I think it's that hers is a voice _without idiosyncrasies_ -- that is to say, a very "standard"-sounding female operatic voice.


----------



## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

albertfallickwang said:


> Not yet but I haven't had the chance to get back to my hometown to see her live and direct. And she was that good on records, then the live should be equal if not better.


I can assure you it is, and that is why those of her who have seen her live express disappointment when listening to her records.


----------



## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

albertfallickwang said:


> Hmm... my tastes in opera run closer in favor of Baroque opera where all we need is vocal pyrotechnics... like in Vivaldi. They don't even need to act but just sing lengthy arias and tons of improvisation and then I'm a happy guy.


well, if you're talking baroque specifically, I agree. for example:







> Dragon slaying I leave for my huge dose of Game of Thrones watch-a-thon.


fair enough (can't wait for Season 5!  )


----------



## Camillorf (Jul 18, 2014)

GregMitchell said:


> That seems to be the main problem. Little of her undeniably exciting stage presence comes over in her records. At least not from my experience of her. She is absolutely terrific live. Not so much on record.


While I agree with you that she is much better live, I still think she is a remarkable singer on record. Not so much as the likes of Callas and Baker perhaps, but I still would rather listen to her than most singers nowadays. Even on record, I would NEVER go as far as describing her voice as "anonymous". If anything, it's still full of character. For whatever reason, it's much more subtle (hence, less exciting) than her live performances, but I still find it very enjoyable. Have you heard her Stella di Napoli album? There are some tracks available on YouTube. I really think it's worth checking it ou. If after listening to it your opinion remains unchanged, then we will just have to agree to disagree.

There are a handful of current operatic singers, who I know many people on here love, but to whom I could not listen for very long. And this is not because their voices are ugly, but I just find them downright boring. Topics like this are so subjective because we all hear things differently.



Bellinilover said:


> Your last point is a great one. Sometimes we go on about a singer not having an "instantly recognizable voice" and forget the obvious: that to someone who is a regular listener of a certain singer, that singer's voice probably _is_ instantly recognizable. In other words, one's ability to identify a singer naturally depends upon one's having heard the singer often.
> 
> Yet I do think it's true that _objectively speaking_ some singers have less "distinctive" sounds than others. Maybe other posters can help me out as to the possible reasons for this, but in Joyce's case I think it's that hers is a voice _without idiosyncrasies_ -- that is to say, a very "standard"-sounding female operatic voice.


Given the majority of the replies to this thread, I have to agree with you. Perhaps I'm so used to listening to her that I just can't hear this lack of distinctiveness in her sound that everyone is going on about.


----------



## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Camillorf said:


> While I agree with you that she is much better live, I still think she is a remarkable singer on record. Not so much as the likes of Callas and Baker perhaps, but I still would rather listen to her than most singers nowadays. Even on record, I would NEVER go as far as describing her voice as "anonymous". If anything, it's still full of character. For whatever reason, it's much more subtle (hence, less exciting) than her live performances, but I still find it very enjoyable. Have you heard her Stella di Napoli album? There are some tracks available on YouTube. I really think it's worth checking it ou. If after listening to it your opinion remains unchanged, then we will just have to agree to disagree.


No I'll admit I haven't heard that CD, but I think I might get it now. I really want to have a good recording of hers to go with my memories of seeing her live.


----------



## Albert7 (Nov 16, 2014)

GregMitchell said:


> I can assure you it is, and that is why those of her who have seen her live express disappointment when listening to her records.


In that case, wouldn't it be the same for Callas or Sutherland then? Or even the old legends?


----------



## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

albertfallickwang said:


> In that case, wouldn't it be the same for Callas or Sutherland then? Or even the old legends?


I think not. Because so much of their personality was in their voices. When the eminent critic John Steane was listening to Callas with a friend, the friend turned to him and said , "Oh of course you had to see her," to which he replied. "Oh but I can, and I do."

In other words, with Callas the vocal personality is so great that she brings every fleeting facial expression to life. It is no doubt why, 50 years after she made her last stage appearance, her records still outsell all those of any other soprano. It is something about the way she communicates the emotion in the music. We also know from the very little video evidence we have, and contemporary accounts, that she had thrilling stage presence. DiDonato has that too, but somehow it doesn't come across on records, at least not on the ones I have heard. I hear a lovely voice, with an excellent technique, but it doesn't communicate to me what she communicated on stage.


----------



## Albert7 (Nov 16, 2014)

GregMitchell said:


> I think not. Because so much of their personality was in their voices. When the eminent critic John Steane was listening to Callas with a friend, the friend turned to him and said , "Oh of course you had to see her," to which he replied. "Oh but I can, and I do."
> 
> In other words, with Callas the vocal personality is so great that she brings every fleeting facial expression to life. It is no doubt why, 50 years after she made her last stage appearance, her records still outsell all those of any other soprano. It is something about the way she communicates the emotion in the music. We also know from the very little video evidence we have, and contemporary accounts, that she had thrilling stage presence. DiDonato has that too, but somehow it doesn't come across on records, at least not on the ones I have heard. I hear a lovely voice, with an excellent technique, but it doesn't communicate to me what she communicated on stage.


DiDonato has no personality then? Perhaps but she takes a more academic and studied approach.

If i want crazy emotion then I got Garanca covering my bases over there for me.


----------



## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

albertfallickwang said:


> DiDonato has no personality then? Perhaps but she takes a more academic and studied approach.
> 
> If i want crazy emotion then I got Garanca covering my bases over there for me.


Did you actually read what I said? At what point did I say or imply that DiDonato has no personality? As someone who has seen her live, I actually stated the reverse. Or are you just deliberately misunderstanding what I've been saying throughout this thread?

Let me say again what I've already stated several times in the course of this discussion, just in case some people aren't getting it. I thought I was making myself perfectly clear, but evidently I am not.

I have seen Joyce DiDonato live, both on stage and in concert. She was riveting. She is a beautiful woman, and a great actress and has a personality (that word again) that positively bursts across the footlights (I'm using that word figuratively, as I am well aware most productions don't use footlights these days). Nor do I deny that she has a beautiful voice and a splendid technique. This much at least can be deduced from her recordings. However, that fabulous stage personality doesn't really come across on record for some reason. I don't see the "face" on record, as I do with some other famous singers. Her records are far from bad, in fact they are very good, for you do indeed still get the beautiful voice and the fantastic technique, but, for someone who has seen her live, they only show half the picture. They are disappointing.

Is that clear yet?


----------



## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

GregMitchell said:


> Did you actually read what I said? At what point did I say or imply that DiDonato has no personality? As someone who has seen her live, I actually stated the reverse. Or are you just deliberately misunderstanding what I've been saying throughout this thread?
> 
> Let me say again what I've already stated several times in the course of this discussion, just in case some people aren't getting it. I thought I was making myself perfectly clear, but evidently I am not.
> 
> ...


Gosh, Greg. I'm trying really hard to understand what you're saying here. Maybe you could approach it from a slightly less musical, vocal, and theatrical point of view?


----------



## Albert7 (Nov 16, 2014)

GregMitchell said:


> Did you actually read what I said? At what point did I say or imply that DiDonato has no personality? As someone who has seen her live, I actually stated the reverse. Or are you just deliberately misunderstanding what I've been saying throughout this thread?
> 
> Let me say again what I've already stated several times in the course of this discussion, just in case some people aren't getting it. I thought I was making myself perfectly clear, but evidently I am not.
> 
> ...


My reference is to her recording aspect which you dismiss as being not up to snuff to her live recording. I know that you enjoy her live performances.

Not interested in debating here but my feelings are that I enjoy her recordings and have yet to experience her live. But again, hit and miss on her recordings.

For example, Stella di Napoli is incredible. I feel that she got the bel canto right. If you compare her to some of the performances of similar arias from the Opera Rara label then DiDonato got what it takes.

Only problem is that Opera Rara can't afford to hire DiDonato on their cast... too pricey I suspect.

Also if you think that DiDonato recordings aren't spectacular maybe it's the recording engineerings at Erato/Warner that don't her justice. That is a possibility too.


----------



## Albert7 (Nov 16, 2014)

Woodduck said:


> Gosh, Greg. I'm trying really hard to understand what you're saying here. Maybe you could approach it from a slightly less musical, vocal, and theatrical point of view?


No issues... sorry if I don't come across as being overly passionate about opera. I am a huge fan but I just as guy from the younger generation and so I approach my operas from a more analytical standpoint.


----------



## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

albertfallickwang said:


> No issues... sorry if I don't come across as being overly passionate about opera. I am a huge fan but I just as guy from the younger generation and so I approach my operas from a more analytical standpoint.


Are you saying that us oldsters can't be analytic?


----------



## Albert7 (Nov 16, 2014)

Becca said:


> Are you saying that us oldsters can't be analytic?


Nope, never said that.


----------



## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

albertfallickwang said:


> Also if you think that DiDonato recordings aren't spectacular maybe it's the recording engineerings at Erato/Warner that don't her justice. That is a possibility too.


On that point I agree with you. A stage producer friend of mine (he's produced productions at Covent Garden, the Met and all over the world, so knows a thing or two about opera) said that to me. If an artist has a great stage personality that, for some reason, isn't coming across on record, then is is the job of his/her record producer to get that personality into the records.


----------



## Bellinilover (Jul 24, 2013)

A point I think needs to be made in this thread is that being a "centrist" singer (as I defined Di Donato in my first post up-thread) by no means rules out being a "great" singer. "Centrist" -- i.e. having cultivated the traditional virtues of fine singing and interpretation but lacking a distinctive "voice character" -- is, in other words, more a category than a criticism. 

Every individual singer is a unique case, and I believe Di Donato can be summed up with a phrase like "excellent singer, moving actress" -- implying that the singing and the acting are somehow separate, as opposed to Callas, whom I would describe as a "great conveyer of emotion through sound" -- implying that she found the drama first and foremost within the vocal line itself, and that this perhaps then extended to her physical acting. It's not a case of one being better than the other, though, but of two different individuals taking two different approaches as artists.


----------



## Albert7 (Nov 16, 2014)

GregMitchell said:


> On that point I agree with you. A stage producer friend of mine (he's produced productions at Covent Garden, the Met and all over the world, so knows a thing or two about opera) said that to me. If an artist has a great stage personality that, for some reason, isn't coming across on record, then is is the job of his/her record producer to get that personality into the records.


The same goes for instrumentalists too. The DG recordings that Helene Grimaud have are a lot more balanced and warmer than her older recordings on Erato.


----------



## Albert7 (Nov 16, 2014)

According to her Twitter it looks like she is retiring soon.


----------



## Camillorf (Jul 18, 2014)

Albert7 said:


> According to her Twitter it looks like she is retiring soon.


Which post specifically are you referring to? I know she made a joke on her Facebook page yesterday about being happy to retire after singing Berlioz with the Berlin Philharmonic, having already sung Bellini with the Philadelphia Orchestra and La donna del lago at the Met this year. But it was (thank God) only a joke.


----------



## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

U


GregMitchell said:


> Did you actually read what I said? At what point did I say or imply that DiDonato has no personality? As someone who has seen her live, I actually stated the reverse. Or are you just deliberately misunderstanding what I've been saying throughout this thread?
> 
> Let me say again what I've already stated several times in the course of this discussion, just in case some people aren't getting it. I thought I was making myself perfectly clear, but evidently I am not.
> 
> ...


I've seen Donato in live broadcast and confirm that she is riveting. Interestingly the same point you make was made by the Gramophone's Philip hopeWallace when first reviewing Callas' second recording of Tosca. By that time the voice had lost its bloom and the recording is a pale shadow of the de Sabata. However, he confirmed that Callas's performances on stage in the role (when she could be seen as well as heard) were still electrifying. And, of course, opera was never designed to be an audio only experience!


----------



## Headphone Hermit (Jan 8, 2014)

Albert7 said:


> Not interested in debating here


thanks for letting us know.


----------



## gast (Jan 22, 2016)

Hello everyone! I found this thread really interesting! I would agree in saying that everyone has different tastes, and that artists are not there for pleasing everyone. For example, the glory of human voice, Florence Foster Jenkins.

Did you know that Joyce DiDonato is going to make her cinematic debut in a documentary about Mme Jenkins? It's premiering in November this year. I am a part of the project and we need all the help we can get to make it a reality. We're running a crowdfunding campaign at the moment, that you can find in http://igg.me/at/ffj-story. There are exciting perks to profit from while you support an ambitious project! Like, for example, "La Donna del Lago" Blu Ray and our exclusive Online Premiere in a bundle!

I hope that this information is of your interest!


----------



## Il Maestro (Oct 27, 2015)

I have heard Joyce DiDonato live once in a concert and plan to see her live again in Wether at the Royal Opera House in the summer. I agree to an extent that her studio recordings do not capture nearly enough of the thrill of listening to her live. But I cannot agree with the points made about the distinctiveness of the sound. Something about her sound production reminds me a bit of a lighter Marilyn Horne, I don’t know how to describe it, but it’s a very distinctive sound to my ears. Her Rossini album is one of my favourite recital discs ever.


----------



## Il Maestro (Oct 27, 2015)

Camillorf said:


> I agree that she is better in soprano roles, but not because of the dramatic intensity. I think she can be just as dramatic in mezzo roles (see her Romeo in I Capuleti e I Montecchi, for example). I actually think her voice _sounds_ better in low soprano/high mezzo roles.
> 
> One thing I forgot to mention in my previous post is that I much prefer her live recordings to her studio recordings. In the clip below, she is singing Vitellia's aria from la Clemenza di Tito in a live concert:
> 
> ...


Yes, her studio recordings are less exciting than her live recordings. I thought the same thing when she released "Una voce poco fa" as bonus track to her Rossini album, it was a little too "straight" in comparison to the live clips that I had heard on YouTube. Perhaps it has something to do with the adrenaline and sense of abandone that comes with a live performance.


----------



## Il Maestro (Oct 27, 2015)

GregMitchell said:


> I think not. Because so much of their personality was in their voices. When the eminent critic John Steane was listening to Callas with a friend, the friend turned to him and said , "Oh of course you had to see her," to which he replied. "Oh but I can, and I do."
> 
> In other words, with Callas the vocal personality is so great that she brings every fleeting facial expression to life. It is no doubt why, 50 years after she made her last stage appearance, her records still outsell all those of any other soprano. It is something about the way she communicates the emotion in the music. We also know from the very little video evidence we have, and contemporary accounts, that she had thrilling stage presence. DiDonato has that too, but somehow it doesn't come across on records, at least not on the ones I have heard. I hear a lovely voice, with an excellent technique, but it doesn't communicate to me what she communicated on stage.


Have you listened to her Donna Elvira on the Deutsche Grammophon set? I thought it was thrilling and probably the best thing she has done on disc!


----------



## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Il Maestro said:


> Have you listened to her Donna Elvira on the Deutsche Grammophon set? I thought it was thrilling and probably the best thing she has done on disc!


I haven't heard it. I'll have to give it a spin.


----------



## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

I just got the Didonato Maria Stuarda DVD. Hope she is good in it.


----------



## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Florestan said:


> I just got the Didonato Maria Stuarda DVD. Hope she is good in it.


I know she is :tiphat:


----------



## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

Seattleoperafan said:


> She is a beautiful woman, a marvelous actress, a very skilled singer. Why isn't she my darling like most of the rest of the operatic world? Like many of today's opera singers she has a somewhat generic sounding voice... not an instantly recognizable sound. I also find her inferior to the great Jennifer Larmore who to my ears really sounded like a mezzo, not just someone with a mezzo range who has no hint of chocolate to the sound of her voice. To my ears singers from the past, Larmore, Horne, Troyanos, Podles, Baltza, Kasarova are more impressive in the roles she sings and I would prefer if choosing a performance to listen to. Do I lack good taste or do you agree with me.


I too am not particularly taken with her voice, it is somewhat generic. However, it's what she does with it.

Have you seen her live?

N.


----------



## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Joyce is also very pretty, a really solid actress and very technically proficient. I'd be happy to see her live in anything, but get bored with her recordings, and she doesn't sound like a mezzo. Same thing for Susan Graham, a marvelous artist, a beautiful woman, and very involved actress who sounds like a generic soprano to me and not a mezzo in recordings. Just my tastes I guess. The gorgeous F. von Stade managed to have all the same wonderful qualities but always had an alto sound to her exquisite voice, plus an instantly recognizable sound. It is possible;-)


----------



## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

Seattleoperafan said:


> Joyce is also very pretty, a really solid actress and very technically proficient. I'd be happy to see her live in anything, but get bored with her recordings, and she doesn't sound like a mezzo. Same thing for Susan Graham, a marvelous artist, a beautiful woman, and very involved actress who sounds like a generic soprano to me and not a mezzo in recordings. Just my tastes I guess. The gorgeous F. von Stade managed to have all the same wonderful qualities but always had an alto sound to her exquisite voice, plus an instantly recognizable sound. It is possible;-)


You need to _hear_ Susan Graham and Joyce DiDonato live if you can. There voices may be similar, but I can't think of two artists with a more different approach to performing music.

N.


----------



## Badinerie (May 3, 2008)

I dont agree with the Generic tag Joyce DiDonato has been assigned from some posters here. I honestly dont understand what people expect from an honest to goodness Soprano these days. Acrobatics perhaps, Fire eating and sword swallowing?
I find her distinctive, engaging and never disappointing. 
Being of the poverty stricken persuasion I will probably never see her live, so I cant comment on that part of her career. But enough comes across on her dvd performances give me an idea. 
As a musician myself I know how stilting some recording studios can be to work in. I was always at my best in a live environment.


----------



## sospiro (Apr 3, 2010)

Badinerie said:


> ... Being of the poverty stricken persuasion I will probably never see her live ...


Can't you give the piggy bank a poke and see if there are a few loose coins lurking within and get a cheap ticket for Werther?


----------



## Badinerie (May 3, 2008)

I live in the North East of England...Near Newcastle It would involve overnight stays in central London and Train Fares...ouch! Paris is nearer to London than I am!










Just for fun I priced it......talking just over £300, If I didnt eat or drink Lol!


----------



## sospiro (Apr 3, 2010)

Badinerie said:


> I live in the North East of England...Near Newcastle It would involve overnight stays in central London and Train Fares...ouch! Paris is nearer to London than I am!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


What a shame but I know the feeling as although I live less than two hours from London, the last train home leaves Euston at 21:00 so unless there's a matinee I have to stay overnight. A friend who lives in Sussex and whose home town is the same distance from London as mine, can get a train at 23:15. Whoever privatised British Rail wants shooting (oh wait a minute she's dead).

Have you tried a Travelodge? I managed to grab a cheap one (£32) for my trip to see _Il trovatore_ in July.


----------



## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Badinerie said:


> As a musician myself I know how stilting some recording studios can be to work in. I was always at my best in a live environment.


I think that was sort of the point I was making in my post. Maybe if I'd never actually seen her live, I wouldn't have found the CDs disappointing. Maybe she doesn't respond well to working in a studio, or maybe, as an opera director friend of mine pointed out, her recording producer failed to capture her stage charisma.


----------



## silentio (Nov 10, 2014)

She is doing Semiramide next year. Great news.


----------



## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

silentio said:


> She is doing Semiramide next year. Great news.


Do you mean performance or recording?


----------



## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

If you want to hear a great mezzo and like Semiramide, check out clips of Anna Bonitatibus' recent album where she sings arias of Queen Semiramis of Babylon from 12 different operas.


----------



## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Florestan said:


> If you want to hear a great mezzo and like Semiramide, check out clips of Anna Bonitatibus' recent album where she sings arias of Queen Semiramis of Babylon from 12 different operas.


I have that one since it came out, played it only twice I think. 
There's something in that voice .....it's not dislike but also not overwhelming, I love it so to speak .


----------



## silentio (Nov 10, 2014)

Pugg said:


> Do you mean performance or recording?


She will perform it in Germany:

http://joycedidonato.com/category/events/


----------

