# Cultural Catalysts to Classical Music



## Ramako (Apr 28, 2012)

I apologise if a thread on this has been made already, but it's something I've always been curious about, and I was wondering if anyone had any insights into this.

So in the 19th and especially the 18th century German and Austrian music seems to have been on a higher standard than other country's (as in Sid James' thread http://www.talkclassical.com/21403-when-did-germanic-hegemony.html). Before this Italian music was considered the best. England produced some great composers in the High Renaissance, but then was pretty awful except for Purcell (interestingly it was possibly the best sponsor for Classical music during the 18th and 19th centuries). Spain has produced few famous composers, as another thread discusses.

So why is all this? Why do some countries seem to produce better composers than others at different points in history*? I cannot believe that it's genetic - all the best composers being born in Austria and Germany for over 100 years doesn't seem likely. Is it geographical? - I can believe that in some cases where there was a specific school, for example the Second Viennese School, based in a specific place. But these cases are quite limited. In general, I can only see the explanation as being that some kind of 'national spirit' enhances the composers of the nation of a particular style.

I read some letters of a Frenchman (translated) written about 1800, suggesting that the sensual nature of the Austrians was the explanation for their superior compositions (talking of Haydn and Mozart - Bach hadn't been resurrected yet). The English translator and editor was horrified at this suggestion and took care to add a footnote saying so.

If this is the case, and it is a matter of culture, what is it in a culture that inspires composers? What is it that makes the difference? What particular elements? Are there any patterns (history buffs may be able to help me out here)? Are there other explanations for this phenomenon?

*This is observable in other art-forms as well, such as 19th century Russian prose or play-writing in England in Elizabethan times


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## Kieran (Aug 24, 2010)

I'm no expert and I hope you don't mind me weighing in. These things are impossible to explain in a way that satisfies. Florence once had da Vinci and Michaelangelo and then they didn't. Bach and Handel were born not far from each other, but that region might not have contributed anyone of similar stature since.

Basically, the argument is how it happens that a lively bubble of genius bobs to the surface here, but not there, and why do some regions produce great artists and others - equally in love with the arts - fail to produce even one. I think education and a will to succeed, to produce, are factors. A tradition-based example helps, and a culture with history in these things.

But even there, how does this culture grow in one petri-dish and not another? Random fluke? Force of nature? The will of God? I think it has something to do with recognising and educating talent in the right way. And once this skill is lost, the culture declines...


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## Ramako (Apr 28, 2012)

So you think it might have partially something to do with the education of an area at a particular time? I like that idea - it makes sense that the young years of a composer would have a strong effect, as well as the nature of their parents. This helps explain someone like Handel, for example, who went to study in Italy slightly later in life (but still young). It helps bridge the awkward gap between the _zeitgeist_ and reality by at least giving a place for such a thing to have an effect. Still the actual elements of a society that help make great composers remain unknown.

I was thinking about how England was a great sponsor of music at a time when it was dreadful at making it. Possibly it is also significant that Italy was the acknowledged centre of musical culture in the 18th century at a time when in retrospect it wasn't. The link is thin though.


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## Dadof5 (Mar 25, 2011)

Ramako said:


> I was thinking about how England was a great sponsor of music at a time when it was dreadful at making it.


I recall reading in Arthur Loesser's book about the social history of pianos that in England during the 18th & 19th centuries, making and creating music was looked down on. It was thought that making music was a frivolous activity that no serious minded gentleman would pursue even though a serious gentleman could enjoy listening to music. The composing and even playing of music was best left to woman and foreigners. Maybe this attitude was associated with the rise of the merchant, business, and industrial capitalist classes at that time in England. So, maybe there was cultural impact on the lack of accomplished composers and musicians during those periods in England.


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## Kieran (Aug 24, 2010)

It's difficult to be exact in these things. In Ireland, we have a great tradition of story-tellers and poets, traditional music too. I believe these grew out of necessity: we're an island off an island in the west of Europe. We're isolated and we chatter and dream.

Perhaps there's some organic circumstance that caused great music to flourish - through necessity - at certain places and at certain times. Aided and abetted, of course, by educational nous, which is a by-product of this climate...


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