# WHAT or WHO qualifies as kitsch?



## Guest (Mar 26, 2013)

I couldn't resist this given the comments on the Tchaikowsky thread. He isn't, but some of these are; let's have some fun:

Joe Pasternak's musicals for MGM with Mario Lanza and Kathryn Grayson (the singing canary);
Andre Rieu and his three-ringed circus
Liberace
Richard Clayderman
Arnold Schwazenegger ("a condom full of walnuts" as Clive James quipped)
Abba (those costumes, OMG)
Lady Gaga
Julian Clary

I'm done.


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## EddieRUKiddingVarese (Jan 8, 2013)

Lord Lloyd of the Webbers or Baron Lloyd-Webber if you prefer........... I'd rather (almost) listen to Richard Clayderman:lol:


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Liberace??? When kitsch is elevated to a fine art form, is it still kitsch?


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## samurai (Apr 22, 2011)

KenOC said:


> Liberace??? When kitsch is elevated to a fine art form, is it still kitsch?


Then it enters into the realm of camp.


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## EddieRUKiddingVarese (Jan 8, 2013)

Is this Camp or Kitsch or both?


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

KenOC said:


> Liberace??? When kitsch is elevated to a fine art form, is it still kitsch?


Haute Kitsch, Moyenne Kitsch, Paysanne Kitsch.

Hope that satisfies your question


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

Nominating:

I stongly second Llord Lloyd Weber's musical endeavors

Add many a musical, Miss Siagon, Les Miserables, etc. An arena where I could list more for days, since a lot of the fundamental aim is genuine yet convincing corn and schmaltz. Most musicals bring to mind that very sharp comment from the intelligent script of the film, 'All about Eve.'
_*"I detest cheap sentiment."*_

John Williams' score to the Star Wars Films

The Legend of Zelda orchestral suite (from the video game scores)

Erik Wolfgang Korngold's film scores. Once he took on that career path, he became a parody of himself, so I'd think that qualifies.

The entire hours long cumulative film score of Lord of the RIngs, Yay, Howie! ... and that also reminds me of all pop pseudo Celtic music, apposite as per the actual definition of Kitsch.

A lot of Fritz Kreisler's musical bon bons

Carl Orff's cantata / oratorios based on classical Greek Dramas. If taking a true cultural iconic work and doing _that_ to it is not Kitsch, I don't know what is

My 'modern' matrix of sensibilities puts a fair amount of late romantic classical into a sort of 'inadvertent' Kitsch bin, a good deal of Liszt in his more barnstorming mode coming to the fore near instantly. But that is a perceived sense _which in no way_, like any opinion on Tchaikovsky, makes Liszt actually 'Kitsch.'

Almost everything Jeff Koons has ever touched or had anything to do with, including his Italian former porn star wife turned mayor as well as his artworks.

~ Enough fun for one night. Thanks! ~

ADD: millions of porcelain figurines! Though I have an inordinate fondness for the Meissen Monkey Band figurines, and the earliest from the eighteenth century are found in the decorative arts departments of museums, or up for auction at astronomic prices, isn't this sort of object both 'decadent' and 'Kitsch,' as in Hoch Kitsch?


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## Guest (Mar 27, 2013)

KenOC said:


> Liberace??? When kitsch is elevated to a fine art form, is it still kitsch?


ONLY if accompanied by hideous candelabra, long white coats and playing which is bog standard and overly-syrupy. And the pianist must wear a self-satisfied, asinine grin during the whole 'process'. I'd rather be in labour (cough)!!:lol:


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## Guest (Mar 27, 2013)

PetrB said:


> Nominating:
> 
> I stongly second Llord Lloyd Weber's musical endeavors
> 
> ...


Agree with the list (not the Liszt) but I like Korngold's film scores. His forays into more serious pieces, i.e. opera, were not so successful: "more Korn than Gold", as one wit put it.

What about garden gnomes? Do these qualify as kitsch, and the execrable SMURF? Pass the bucket, please!! The Hamburglar is another consumerist-incarnation of corporate kitsch.

And John Williams' Star Wars - it's putrid. He could do so much better - listen to his brilliant score for 'Catch Me if You Can".

"All About Eve" - I loved that high melodrama - "fasten your seat-belts; we're in for a bumpy night". Wunderbah. And the breathless and scarcely believable Anne Baxter as ingenue!! Oooo-Kay.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

When I think of visual kitsch I think of things like this:










But its ironic maybe that high art can be kitsch too (thanks to PoMo theory?). Take Jeff Koons stuff, like his puppy dog in flowers that has appeared in front of art galleries the world over - including Australia.










...but admittedly thats soooo '90's - it hasn't dated well, has it, such as these art fads tend to do...like Tracy Emin's bed or Damien Hirst's cows in formaldehyde. Paucity of ideas may be a worse thing than kitsch - at least kitsch is not taken seriously, written about by art theorists with their often inscrutable gobbledigook and jargon. Real kitsch is just eye or ear candy, nothing more nothing less.

Anyway an anecdote I remember reading about is that the king of musical kitsch, Lehar - the Viennese operetta composer (eg. of The Merry Widow) had tonnes of kitsch in his villa in Bad Ischl. But the kitsch was not his, it was his wife's! Lehar hated the stuff, his wife loved it. Yet another case of opposites attract type thing? Anyway, apparently Franz had one single tiny room, maybe a study or a kind of bedroom to himself, that had no kitsch in it at all. He was allowed to furnish it himself, and it was very puritan, spartan, minimalistic. Just a chair, a table, bookcase, a desk. The walls painted white. That's it. That was the actual taste in furnishings of the king of musical kitsch! Kind of ironic if you think about it...


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

For me, kitsch does not come more kitsch than the paintings of Kinkade:

View attachment 15513


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## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

When I think of musical kitsch I think of Yanni and New Age music more than anything else.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

Unlimited cat videos.


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## Chrythes (Oct 13, 2011)

millionrainbows said:


> Unlimited cat videos.


They at least somehow tend to surprise the observer more than kitsch does.


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## Ingélou (Feb 10, 2013)

So does 'kitsch' mean something that someone else finds cute but which turns your stomach?
Have to admit, I like cat videos...


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## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

Ingenue said:


> So does 'kitsch' mean something that someone else finds cute but which turns your stomach?
> Have to admit, I like cat videos...


My personal definition of kitsch is that it pretends to be art but is intentionally taking the lowest route possible. I think that the separation between kitsch and art in poor taste is cynicism.

I believe that Kinkade was intentionally manipulating his audiences in order to make money. He knew what sells, and he dressed it up as art to give it a veneer of respectability.

I'm tempted to call amateurish attempts at art, like most rock stars who have attempted to write classical music, kitsch, but they usually seem sincere. In that case, it's just in poor taste.

Cat videos really don't purport to be anything other than what they are...although I think I'm allergic there...


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

Ingenue said:


> So does 'kitsch' mean something that someone else finds cute but which turns your stomach?
> Have to admit, I like cat videos...


My view is context. If its in an art gallery, its high art. If its in someone's living room, its kitsch. But these days people are unlikely to have kitsch in their houses as older/earlier generations did. I remember an episode of The Goodies and they kind of lampooned their parents generation, a lot of whom had a copy of 'the monarch of the glen' (image below) hanging on their living room wall. But I know a couple of cafes and pubs here that have kitsch as decor, its kind of trendy here in some quarters. So maybe now that Koons and those trendy 'retro' PoMo theorists have said anything, including kitsch, can be art, well these is no boundary except context? That's what I think anyway.

The generation born before 1945 loved kitsch - well some 'classes' did - the baby boomers 'rebelled' and hated it, their kids like it or don't mind it as something different to what they grew up with.


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## StlukesguildOhio (Dec 25, 2006)

I like Korngold's film scores. His forays into more serious pieces, i.e. opera, were not so successful: "more Korn than Gold", as one wit put it.

I beg to differ. Korngold's operas (among other "serious" compositions) all predate his film scores... and are quite good... even brilliant on occasion. I'm not alone in this judgment. Mahler considered him a "musical genius" and his work was greatly admired and championed by Alexander von Zemlinsky, Richard Strauss, Giacomo Puccini, and Artur Schnabel. The witticism concerning Korngold's music was in response to his late cello concerto... which like the violin concerto was composed in a rich chromatic late-Romantic style that had simply fallen from favor at the time. In spite of this, the violin concerto remains firmly ensconced within the core repertoire and has been performed by many of the finest violinists including Anne-Sophie Mutter, Jascha Heifetz, Philippe Quint, Itzhak Perlman, Hillary Hahn, etc...


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

Some other 'high art' that I see as very near kitsch:

Rococo church interiors -










Rococo furnishings like these wall brackets (also tables, chairs, etc.) -










Paintings by Murillo -










Sculptures such as on this plague column in Vienna -










So, not much difference between high art and kitsch, is there? Depends on context and what/who its for. Ironically this is a PoMo kind of opinion, but it makes sense to me given these kinds of examples (& there are many others)...


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## Rapide (Oct 11, 2011)

Andre Rieu is definitely kitsch stuff. The ballets, the glitz etc. Tt's easy going and everyone there has a good time.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

Some more 'high art' (or design) which is near kitsch, maybe even a parody of it:

*Salvador Dali's Mae West lips sofa.* He made a famous painting of Mae West's face transforming it into a room in his usual surreal/wierd style. But I don't remember if the painting or the sofa came first?










Another one by *Jeff Koons of Michael Jackson and his monkey.
*









French c18th painter *Fragonard*:










& as someone said with Liberace, *kitsch and camp go together* - same thing today at the* Sydney Gay and Lesbian Mardi Gras *annual parade. A lot of effort is put into those costumes, some by professional designers (who may or may not be part of the gay community). This could even be found in 'high art' - eg. Offenbach's operettas, or even modern productions of some serious 'highbrow' operas. A provocative thought may be that Sydney's version of camp/kitsch is alive whereas in places like the Paris follies bergere its dead, musuem piece, fodder mainly for tourists, a relic of 100 years back.

Anyway, here's a pic of a mardi gras reveller I got at random:


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## Schubussy (Nov 2, 2012)

Rapide said:


> Andre Rieu is definitely kitsch stuff. The ballets, the glitz etc. Tt's easy going and everyone there has a good time.


The album artist gets it.


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## Ebab (Mar 9, 2013)

At my age, I've lost the fear of the attribute "kitsch". Art or kitsch, who cares. I've come to know what works for me and what doesn't (Rieu doesn't). I've stood up on the balcony of Neuschwanstein castle, on a cold autumn night, and looked down the gorgeous Upper-Bavarian landscape with clouds wafting by, like Ludwig II did. It doesn't get any more kitsch, and it doesn't get any more sublime and evocative.

John Williams' original "Star Wars" score, fine rococo interiors (I've just returned from the city of Würzburg; what has survived the war is still _exceptional_) -- guys, I'm as cynical as the next person, but to me, this is art at its highest. Serving a purpose does not diminish the value.


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## Guest (Mar 29, 2013)

PetrB said:


> The Legend of Zelda orchestral suite (from the video game scores)


No way...they're awesome!!!

(In the common parlance.)



CountenanceAnglaise said:


> And John Williams' Star Wars - it's putrid. He could do so much better - listen to his brilliant score for 'Catch Me if You Can".


Isn't that like suggesting that Beethoven could have written so much better if he had done the 9th before the 1st?


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

^Yeah & I'd add that again the difference between the Bavarian castle of Ludwig II and the one in Disneyland (the rehash version) is not that huge. The latter a bit more kitschy but so what? Maybe just put Cinderella or Mickey MOuse on the parapet at Bavaria and nobody would know the difference?


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## Ebab (Mar 9, 2013)

In its time, Neuschwanstein wasn't less of an anachronism than Disneyland's "Cinderella Castle" or Michael Jackson's Neverland were in theirs. They built skyscrapers in Chicago at around the same time.

Still, there's a difference to me, historically, spiritually, ... or just regarding the craftsmanship. Maybe it's just what I project onto it. But the difference is palpable to me.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

^^I get what you mean - that looks like a painting by Caspar David Friedrich, not much like Disney. A different perspective of the Bavarian castle for sure.


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## deggial (Jan 20, 2013)

Rapide said:


> Tt's easy going and everyone there has a good time.


but that's not what makes it kitsch. I'd go with the glitz.


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## Guest (Mar 29, 2013)

"Kitsch is in the eye of the beholder."


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## ptr (Jan 22, 2013)

TalkingHead said:


> "Kitsch is in the eye of the beholder."


I agree with this, anything or anyone in the right/wrong circumstances can be kitsch!

/ptr


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## Guest (Apr 2, 2013)

I know this is off the wall, but I'm trying to come up with an original definition of kitsch (a 'work in progress' therefore):
serving foie gras with Heinz ketchup?


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

TalkingHead said:


> I know this is off the wall, but I'm trying to come up with an original definition of kitsch (a 'work in progress' therefore):
> serving foie gras with Heinz ketchup?


Heinz is fine. Kitsch is when you use the store brand.  Not an issue here in California, where foie gras is now illegal. I'm not making this up. Now I'll never have tournedos Rossini, with ketchup or without...


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## Guest (Apr 2, 2013)

KenOC said:


> Heinz is fine. Kitsch is when you use the store brand.  Not an issue here in California, where foie gras is now illegal. I'm not making this up. *Now I'll never have tournedos Rossini, with ketchup or without*...


Life in the Americas can be hard, I'm told !!!


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## Guest (Apr 2, 2013)

KenOC said:


> Heinz is fine. Kitsch is when you use the store brand.  [/IMG]


Snob !!!
We hope the store brand is at least organic?


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## quack (Oct 13, 2011)

Hindemith called _Bitter Sweet_ (an operetta by Noel Coward) "one of the biggest examples of kitsch ever to have been hatched from a human brain."


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