# The vinyl empire strikes back?



## Ciel_Rouge (May 16, 2008)

I do not know what it is like in the US, but in Europe you can buy turntables (usually with an FM radio) in "popular" chains like Media Markt. Vinyl records are also available. Is vinyl going to return big time? Perhaps 21st century technology could solve some previous problems or some old tech could be rediscovered to be incorporated in the new generations of turntables...

On the other hand - do you own a turntable? How fast do the records deteriorate? Do you find the sound to be superior to CDs and if so, in what way? Is it sometimes easier or cheaper to obtain vinyl records?


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## david johnson (Jun 25, 2007)

i still use a turntable at times. sounds great to me.

dj


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## marval (Oct 29, 2007)

We have a turntable, it is needed because we have a big collection of LPs. The records don't seem to be deteriorating, and the sound is very good. I don't know if the fact that you can buy turntables means that vinyls are coming back, or that they have realised that people do still have old records they want to play. It will be interesting to see what the future holds for music listening.


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## Krummhorn (Feb 18, 2007)

Hi Ciel,

I have had a single play turntable as part of my home audio setup for many years. I have a few hundred LP's from the 60's & 70's (mostly classical solo organ) that are still in perfect playing condition and sound wonderful. I am in the process of converting them to CD, only so that I can enjoy these recordings when traveling about in the car.


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## sbadman (Nov 22, 2008)

*Turntables and vinyl*

Have tons of vinyl that I collected in the 60's and 70's (pre CD). Recently bought a Music Hall 5 turntable and have been enjoying the music more than ever. LP's do have their downfalls but sound better than CDs generally speaking.


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## jhar26 (Jul 6, 2008)

I remember that when cd's first came on the market they were promoted for their 'superior sound quality.' Nearly everyone who started buying cd's in the mid-80's agreed that their sound quality was indeed superior to vinyl. In fact, people were seeking out DDD and ADD cd's because if they got one that was marked AAD it meant that it would sound 'just as good (or bad) as vinyl.' I'm not necessarily arguing in favor of one or the other here but I find it interesting how people's perception changes over the years.

Just guessing, but maybe it depends on the quality of ones turntable (?). Maybe an average priced cd player will produce better results than an average priced turntable and you really need high end material to get the best out of vinyl.


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## Elgarian (Jul 30, 2008)

I was driven crazy during the 70s and 80s by pressing defects in vinyl LPs. The character of these defects nearly always manifested itself as a slight distortion towards the end of a side, and I spent an enormous amount of time, money and effort, adjusting the turntable and trying different cartridges, believing it to be a tracking problem.

Then I chanced upon an article in a magazine that discussed pressing problems, and the fact that as the vinyl comes off the master, the last part to leave the surface is the central part, and sometimes tiny bits of the vinyl stick to the master. This not only damages that particular pressing, but also all the ones that follow, until the master is changed. I wondered if this was the cause of the problem I'd been experiencing.

So I started taking LPs back and asking for a replacement whenever I found this 'end of side' distortion happening, and I got some real shocks. The variation between one pressing and another was often _very_ noticeable. Sometimes I had to get a _second_ replacement, to get a pressing I was happy with. I'd spent all that time fiddling with cartridges, improving the acoustic isolation of the turntable, and tweaking everything that was tweakable, and all the time I'd been trying to solve a problem that was inherent in the pressing, and nothing to do with my equipment at all - except insofar as I had a system that was accurate and transparent enough to reveal what, I guess, many people didn't notice, or weren't bothered by.

Every LP purchase became a chore, because there was quite a high chance of the pressing being substandard, and so I'd end up going back to the shop and having to explain this defect, which to many retailers seemed like nitpicking and fussiness because they couldn't hear it on the equipment they had in their shop. When I finally ditched my entire LP collection, and moved completely to CD, it was with enormous relief; and really I've never looked back at the medium with any sense of nostalgia at all. And I've never understood these claims that the sound quality was somehow 'better' than CD.


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## marinermark (Aug 23, 2008)

I had to go online to get a new stylus for my late 80s Dual turntable; couldn't buy one locally I have a CD conversion turntable, but haven't done a LP-to-CD conversion on it yet. Many of my records are from the 50s and 60s. Generally, they've held up well.


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## LvB (Nov 21, 2008)

I have many records, most of them of repertoire never duplicated on CD at all, so my turntable is a major part of my listening apparatus. The best analog recordings, imo, have a presence which few if any CDs ever display, but I doubt very much that vinyl is coming back big time. There was an attempt to develop a laser vinyl reader, but it foundered on teh fact that it couldn't handle scratches or gunk on the disk, and would just go silent. Oh, and it would have cost about 20,000.00!


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## Lang (Sep 30, 2008)

Elgarian said:


> When I finally ditched my entire LP collection, and moved completely to CD, it was with enormous relief; and really I've never looked back at the medium with any sense of nostalgia at all. And I've never understood these claims that the sound quality was somehow 'better' than CD.


Well, admittedly, there were issues with LPs, not the least of which was surface noise, and the distortion you mention. Never knew the cause of it, though. I always assumed it was because the vinyl travelled past the needle more slowly as it progressed through the record.

But I once did the experiment of playing the same recording simultaneously on vinyl and CD, and then switching from one source to the other. I was quite taken aback by the difference. The vinyl had a lovely sheen on the strings, completely lacking on the CD, and sounded altogether more lifelike. This was some time ago, so perhaps CD recording has improved since then. I certainly hope so, or we are all missing something.


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## Elgarian (Jul 30, 2008)

Lang said:


> Well, admittedly, there were issues with LPs, not the least of which was surface noise, and the distortion you mention. Never knew the cause of it, though. I always assumed it was because the vinyl travelled past the needle more slowly as it progressed through the record.


Yes, there obviously is an inevitable decrease in quality as the stylus tracks progressively towards the inner grooves, for several reasons such as the one you mention. Accurate tracking becomes more difficult too, towards the centre, I believe; and until I did my experiments with different pressings, I'd always assumed that _that_ was responsible for the distortion I was hearing. What I proved conclusively to myself, though, by comparing pressings, was that with a _good_ pressing _I could hear no deterioration at all_ towards the centre. In other words, all those deficiencies that for so long I'd _thought_ (mistakenly) were responsible were actually inaudible to me.

I wonder whether that 'lovely sheen' on the violins that seemed more lifelike really was due to the higher accuracy of the vinyl medium? Isn't it possible that the vinyl imposed a pleasant sounding distortion on the sound that effectively masked deficiencies in the original recording (due to close miking, for example). I don't know if it's true, but I remember hearing it suggested - that the reason CDs sometimes compared unfavourably with vinyl was because their greater accuracy exposed weaknesses in commonly-used miking techniques.


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## Lang (Sep 30, 2008)

Yes, it's possible I was hearing a pleasant-sounding distortion, and of course our listening experience is always subjective. But to me it was closer to the sound of a real string section than was the CD. The whole recording sounded better to me, more spacious and rounded.

But of course, someone else listening might have had a completely different experience.


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## Badinerie (May 3, 2008)

I never lost either of my two turntables. The amount of vinyl I own had shrunk due to space constraints. I have about a third of what I owned when my collection was at its peak. I did own a lot of sh*** mind you! shedding the larger part of impulse buys or music I outgrew , and as my cd collection expanded, did allow me space to buy more vinyl too! Lets face it LP's are dirt cheap and if one in five is acceptable condition wise its no problem to bin the other four!


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## LindenLea (Feb 4, 2007)

I'm afraid I'm of a generation whereby even now at least 50% of my classical music collection is on vinyl, and I wouldn't replace a single one of them, they are old friends! I have seen these machines that enable you to record/transfer vinyl onto CD or even your PC, but I will probably just stick to my old Bang and Olufsen turntable when I want to play my old 'platters'.


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## bongos (Nov 27, 2008)

*vinyl tracking noise*

you do not have to live with tracking noise when listening to your vinyl.I have a turntable and tonearm which is 20 years old .It is Rega Planar 3 , and Linn LVX tone arm .When I bought it new it was fitted with a Grace F9E cartridge which was considered a classic in that era .I accepted the tracking noise it had as just part of the price you pay for the warmth of vinyl.In 1992 I auditioned a Sumiko Bluepoint cartridge in my tone arm and turntable and was stunned that the tracking noise disappeared, and the music was sweeter and with greater resolution. I did not upgrade the Grace cartridge at that time because I had just upgraded to Energy 4.1E speakers and fabulous OCOS coaxial speaker cables and I was thrilled with the greater resolution from that .I was listening to rock then and the tracking noise was not a major . But now Im listening to classical so 2 days ago I auditioned 2 cartridges in my old Rega /Linn .Firstly I heard a Rega Elise ( NZ $350).It had tracking noise like the Grace , and it was not resolved enough for the money .Then came Dynavector 10X5 (NZ$650).The tracking noise disappeared and the resolution , soundstage etc were great so I bought the Dynavector .
If you love your vinyl and suffer from tracking noise , check out low tracking noise cartridges , you MUST audition any on your turntable and tonearm


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## Elgarian (Jul 30, 2008)

bongos said:


> you do not have to live with tracking noise when listening to your vinyl.


Could you clarify what you mean by 'tracking noise', bongos? Do you mean 'mistracking' - i.e. the distortion produced by a stylus that isn't correctly following the modulations in the groove? Or do you mean 'surface noise' - i.e. the spits and pops and crackles produced by dust and foreign objects lodging in the groove?


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## bongos (Nov 27, 2008)

hi Elgarian , I mean surface noise , the rumbling noise as the stylus rides the groove whether the groove is clean or not .Some cartridges are more prone to this noise than others.You cannot expect silence in the quiet passages of classical vinyl but my Dynavector and also the Sumiko were noticably quieter than others.In my experience , vinyl doesnt deteriorate with age .Damage to the grooves is another matter .All cartridges will give a snick noise


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## marinermark (Aug 23, 2008)

My hearing now falls off very quickly above about 4K Hz, so I can't appreciate the subtleties in the music I hear, or the equipment on which I hear it. I wonder, though, do we generally prefer vinyl because it actually is "better/"warmer", etc, or because its sound is what we "grew up with"? I've been buying CDs for 10, maybe 15 years. Before that I bought records for 40-45 years - my "formative years" as a classical music listener. Yes, I often prefer the sound, or the performances, on my records vs my comparable CDs, but I cannot discern exactly why. Let's hear from some of our younger members who may have a more balanced CD/vinyl experience


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## ozradio (Oct 23, 2008)

marinermark said:


> Let's hear from some of our younger members who may have a more balanced CD/vinyl experience


Well, I'm 34 and started listening to music in the mid- to late-80s when vinyl, cassettes, and cds were all somewhat readily availalble so don't have fond memories of one format over another. As long as the record is in halfway decent shape I don't notice much difference between it and a disc. I just recently bought a handful of classical records to see if they would be an economical way to expand my collection and so far they're satisfactory. The biggest issue of course is having to get up and flip them. I'm not a real discriminating listener so take this for what it's worth.


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## JTech82 (Feb 6, 2009)

I won't be investing any money or time into these new vinyl records that are coming out. The CD was exactly what music, especially classical, needed.


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## Elgarian (Jul 30, 2008)

JTech82 said:


> The CD was exactly what music, especially classical, needed.


I feel that way too, and it's like a breath of fresh air to read your comment. In hindsight, I can see that in the days of vinyl I spent too much of my time focusing on the medium and its shortcomings - that is, listening to the _record_, at the expense of the music - whereas now I seem to spend no time at all doing that.


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## Taneyev (Jan 19, 2009)

I used to have about 700 vinyls, but I sold all of them. Now, when I find an interesting one, I buy it , made it copied to CD and I sell it. I've not more the sistem, and I don't n listen to it as vinyl. But a thing is certain; vinyls begun in 1948 and ended in 1983. In 35 years there were hundreds of thousends of recordings, and I think that not more than 25 or 30% have appear on CD. So, there are a lot ot recordings that you can find only on vinyls (if you find it at all). That's why I 'm always searching for vinyls.


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## JTech82 (Feb 6, 2009)

Elgarian said:


> I feel that way too, and it's like a breath of fresh air to read your comment. In hindsight, I can see that in the days of vinyl I spent too much of my time focusing on the medium and its shortcomings - that is, listening to the _record_, at the expense of the music - whereas now I seem to spend no time at all doing that.


Yes, I understand where you're coming from. I also feel that, while vinyl sounds incredibly warm, it is a medium that is gone and cannot even compare with the audio quality of a CD. I also have enjoyed the MD, which here in the United States isn't as popular as it should be. For me, the MD had the digital quality of the CD mixed with the warmth of a record, but it also introduced a new way to record music via it's editing capabilities.

In any case, the CD has won the war, at least in sound qaulity, and is the best medium on the market. People going nuts over downloading MP3s are wasting their money in my opinion, but of course, this is coming from an audiophile and collector like myself.


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## Iforgotmypassword (May 16, 2011)

I personally love vinyl. Whenever there's a choice between getting an LP or a CD I choose the record. Not only do I feel like I'm actually purchasing something with "substance" and often beautifully packaged artwork and such, but I also (even on my crappy terrible turntable) do hear a much more natural reproduction of the sound than on CD. I plan on getting a superior record player when I can afford it and then I'm sure there'll be an even more pronounced difference. My only complaint with records is that it is true, once a record has been damaged by time and wear and bad care it does sound pretty sub-par. But think about it. Compact discs won't even play under these same circumstances.


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## presto (Jun 17, 2011)

I was only too pleased that CD’s came along, what a relief!
No more snap crackle and pop, no end of side distortion, no rumble wow and flutter, not having to turn over after the second movement, no warps, no endless messing about with a stylus and pickup weights, I could go on!
At last we could focus and concentrate on the most important thing...........The Music.


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## Guest (Jul 6, 2011)

Any time new technology comes along, people will harken back to the previous technology with nostalgia and find wonders that they previously had not seen or heard. We tend to gloss over the problems of the past. I remember records. If you didn't store them right, they would warp. They could shatter much more easily. They were large and took up a lot of space. There was no portability. You could not enjoy music while traveling down the road. If the turntable got bumped, it would skip, or scratch.

But there was something cool about them. The artwork. The heft. I have some records I have hung on to. My brother took some as well. My father had bought the complete Beethoven collection by DG on vinyl - I remember the boxes with multiple records inside - each with different colored pictures of Beethoven on the cover. He also had some great jazz albums - mostly Dave Brubeck. We had an old cabinet stereo, with a radio and a turntable. The speakers had a fabrix cover and wooden lattices. It was a piece of furniture as much as a source of music.

But for sound quality, CDs have LPs beat. And now people are experiencing the same thing, shifting from CDs to electronic media. I steer away from low quality MP3, but to my ears, I can't tell the difference between the music I buy off of iTunes and what I listen to on actual CDs bought in stores. I love the new technology, and the crystal clear sound it gives.


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## presto (Jun 17, 2011)

I embrace the new technology, music have never been so easily accessible, cheap and sounding so good.
For those that hark back to the old setups fair enough to them, but I think it’s more for the sake of nostalgia than for the sake of the music.


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## GoneBaroque (Jun 16, 2011)

I sill have a turntable and a fairly large collection of vinly recordings. Most of them are unusual material which have not been reissued on CD by any performer. Most of the vinyl recordings of more commonly available selections have been replaced.

One example is the Requiem by the Australian composer Wilfred Josephs, a truly fascinating piece. The portions representing the Requiem Mass are played by a string quartet, while the orchestra, chorus and soloists perform the Kaddish. Why this never appeared on CD I cannot understand. 

I have never noticed any deterioration of the vinly records, although I do miss some of the beautiful art work on the covers.

Rob


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## Taneyev (Jan 19, 2009)

Vinyls began in 1946/47, and ended about 1983. In almost 40 years, several thousends were published. Of all those, maybe 30% had been re-published on CD. So, there are thousends of recordings that aren't and will never be on CD. including many extraordinary recordings by now forgotten or unknown composer and players. If you don't care to renounce to all that, forget the vinyls. But if you do care, look on it for those extremely rare recordings you'll not find on CD.


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## haydnfan (Apr 13, 2011)

I have trouble believing that 30% of vinyl recordings never made it to cd. To the best of my knowledge the majority of recordings made it to cd, not the other way around.


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## Philip (Mar 22, 2011)

what some people don't realize is that practically all modern LPs are sourced from digital recordings, and worst most of them share the same mastering as their CD counterpart...


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## Iforgotmypassword (May 16, 2011)

^ Yes, this reality saddens me, but I still prefer to chance it and get an LP that has the ability to sound better IMO. However I have come across some terrible terrible pressings as well as good ones.


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## presto (Jun 17, 2011)

haydnfan said:


> I have trouble believing that 30% of vinyl recordings never made it to cd. To the best of my knowledge the majority of recordings made it to cd, not the other way around.


My thoughts too, I would have thought most vinyl has been now reissued on CD and indeed with the new technology available the recordings cleaned up and sounding better than they originally did.
Wonders have certainly been achieved with cleaning up ancient 78 rpm recordings.


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## Badinerie (May 3, 2008)

I still enjoy CD, especially with music that has many quiet passages or Solo instrument. But for large scale and energetic pieces I stll get the old Vinyl out.


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## ozradio (Oct 23, 2008)

Just picked up a stash of vinyl yesterday. Complete Schubert symphonies on Phillips by Marriner, Mozart's violin concertos with Perlman on DG, Hansel & Gretel on Red Seal with libretto, and Der Rosekavalier on Angel with libretto. They look like they've never been played, the nice thing about much classical vinyl. All this set me back $3. I'd pay more than that just for the two librettos.


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