# Brahms: Piano Concerto #2 in B-flat, op. 83



## science

Brahms's second piano concerto is one of the most beloved and popular in the repertoire - at the moment, it is even tied (with Mozart's 20th) as the most strongly recommended piano concerto on the Talk Classical community's favorite and most highly recommended works.

As usual for a work of this stature, Wikipedia has a nice article about it, including a list of notable recordings and a little analysis that amounts to a nice listening guide. The best source for recording recommendations is probably Trout's blog post on this work.

*Anyway, the main questions are: Do you like this work? What do you like about it? Do you have any reservations about it? *

And of course, what are your favorite recordings?


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## Tchaikov6

This is an amazing piece, one of the greatest of all of Brahms works imo. I like how symphonic it really is in scale, considering it's four movement structure, massive opening movement, Scherzo movement, etc. The piano is so well-written for too, and this concerto expresses the joys, sorrows, and everything in between of what the piano can express fundamentally. 


Freire with Chailly and Gewandhaus Orchestra Leipzig is my favorite recording, stunning.


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## MarkW

I've liked it since I first heard it -- although I've always been a little nonplussed by how sunny the finale is given the drama of the first two movements. But that just makes it Brahmsian.  It frustrates pianists because it can't be made to look or sound as hard as it is to play (another of Brahms' little jokes). Favorite recordings: Serkin/Szell, Arrau/Haitinck. The Richter/Leinsdorf recording a instructive because Richter sails through passages at tempos that make you realize how difficult they must be because other pianists don't attempt to.


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## starthrower

I've got this one on deck to revisit. Arrau/Concertgebouw, and Gilels/Berliner.


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## Strange Magic

My all-time favorite piano concerto and all-time favorite Brahms. I have the Richter/Leinsdorf recording also and it too is my favorite version. Though I have no hard evidence, I feel that, among his large works, it was in his concertos that Brahms allowed himself most freely to imagine himself most free, and sometimes even dancing.


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## Brahmsianhorn

Love especially the 3rd movement. There is a heavenly moment of resolution between the piano and cello soloists towards the end of it.

Favorite recordings include Schnabel/Boult if you are okay with really old sound and occasional sloppiness as well as the modern classic, Gilels/Jochum.


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## 89Koechel

Thanks, Brahmsianhorn, for mentioning Schnabel!! … and now, I won't have to mention one of his OLDER LP incarnations (Rococo). Also, I'm not a "sucker" for those RCA recordings of the past … yeah, the ones of "white dog", "shaded dog", etc., and their extraordinary, sonic ENGINEERING, but there WAS another master - Rubinstein.


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## 89Koechel

->science … and "any reservations about it". Well, Brahms's 2nd Concerto is obviously, a bit "Romantic", and broad-scaled. Maybe his 1st Concerto is more-concise, but there's probably no sense in nit-picking the differences, 'tween the two! …. As for RESERVATIONS, one might have some … about the somewhat-bloated interpretations that have occurred, over the years, incl. in some recorded ones. I like "MarkW"'s preferences, incl. Richter (the Soviet master), plus Serkin/Szell. Szell was virtually-ideal, in Brahms (although some would ARGUE, maybe, with that), and he partnered-with Leon Fleisher, in another, excellent version. Good luck with DISCOVERING this remarkable Concerto, and the revelations of it's best interpreters.


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## SONNET CLV

I remember the first time I heard this work, some half century ago. I've heard it dozens of times since. It remains a great favorite, sort of a Brahms Fifth Symphony in its grandeur and beauty.

The first recording of this work that I heard is still a treasure in my collection:









The names Eduard Mrazek, Hans Swarowsky, and Vienna State Opera Orchestra may not be the regular "biggies" everyone is aware of, but this disc rocks! A worthy contender for "finest performance of the Brahms Second Concerto," at least in my opinion.


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## mbhaub

Great, great concerto...and quite difficult and very long. The opening is magical. And a source of a great musical joke I heard. The first horn player and the pianist (Leonard Pennario) got together right before rehearsal and agreed to play their solo parts 1/2 step higher than written. Then at the end of the 6th bar the clarinets and bassoons enter - but they played the correct pitch. You have never seen so many people squirm all at once. It was really shocking, that sudden 1/2 modulation. Then a really good laugh. The conductor, not so much. He was annoyed that HIS rehearsal had been sabotaged, the music disrespected. And he was really annoyed that it was obvious that he didn't have perfect pitch after all, like he claimed. 

My favorite is Gilels with Jochum on DG.


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## Rogerx

Outstanding concerto, Ashkenazy / Haitink is my first choice.


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## WildThing

Richter with Leinsdorf and the Chicago Symphony Orchestra is pretty special.


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## Enthusiast

Yes - a very great concerto. As usual with very great works I could never settle on just one approach but Barenboim with Barbirolli is wonderful. Serkin with Szell is perhaps a little lacking in warmth but is worth hearing some times for its excitement. There are many others.


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## pianoville

Amazing concerto. The interaction between the orchestra and the piano is great and the score is very well written. Both of Brahm's concertos are favorite of mine.


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## Dimace

Due to my love for the American Orchestras and Pianists, I will choose *Leon Fleisher and Cleveland Orchestra under Szell.*

Huge concerto the 2nd of Johannes. Doesn't top my concertos list, (where Busoni plays without any rival) but I must admit I like it a lot. I can also suggest (for the friends they REALLY know and LOVE Brahms) *Dimitris Sgouros * performances. (I can not remember with which label) I have listened him once live and what I can say is that live performance wasn't from this world. I consider him the BEST Brahms interpreter in human history. (Big und very personal words...)


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## wkasimer

One of my favorites, although it took me a long time to appreciate it. That's been true for a lot of Brahms' music.

Most of my favorites have been mentioned - Szell's recordings with Fleisher and Serkin, Ashkenazy/Haitink, Richter/Leinsdorf, Barenboim/Barbirolli among them. A couple of others are Gilels/Reiner (which I prefer to the one with Jochum) and a couple that surprised me - Backhaus/Böhm, both recordings - because I usually don't care for either performer.


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## janxharris

A sublime masterpiece imho. I have Eugen Jochum conducting the Berlin PO with Emil Gilels.


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## Lisztian

Probably my favorite piano concerto.


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## Brahmsian Colors

One more time: Gilels/Reiner, Serkin/Szell, Istomin/Ormandy


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## Enthusiast

wkasimer said:


> ... and a couple that surprised me - Backhaus/Böhm, both recordings - because I usually don't care for either performer.


I also rate the Backhaus with the VPO (there seem to have been several other recordings of him often with Bohm in this concerto). This is less of a surprise for me as I often like both performers.


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## Mifek

This is indeed a great concerto, though not my favorite one (only position 7 on my Top Ten list), and one reason for that might be that most recordings I know don't appeal to me too much. The only exception (so far) is Barenboim/Barbirolli which sweeps me away every time I listen to it. This is a bit strange because I cannot stand listening to Brahm's 1st by Barenboim/Barbirolli (mostly because of Barenboim's playing) - I love the performance by Gilels/Jochum instead, though in this case I am totally indifferent to their Brahm's 2nd.


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## janxharris

BPO/Jochum/Gilels:


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## Ras

The only bad thing I can say about Brahms' second piano concerto is that the first one is better.


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## Enthusiast

Although I acknowledged that there are many fine recordings, I probably should have mentioned the underrated Buchbinder recording with Harnoncourt and the Concertgebouw. If you like your Brahms strong this one is a treat.


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## Becca

I am not a big Brahms enthusiast but the 2nd concerto is his work that I go to more often than others, and probably because of what I perceive to be a much more symphonic structure. As to performances, I have Barenboim/Barbirolli, Friere/Chailly, and my favourite, Gina Bachauer with the LSO and Stanislaw Skrowaczewski.


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## SONNET CLV

Ras said:


> The only bad thing I can say about Brahms' second piano concerto is that the first one is better.


The Brahms First Piano Concerto is certainly a _great_ concerto. But the Second is certainly something more.


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## Phil loves classical

Only like the first movement. Some nice tension there. I have Serkin's and Cliburn's versions. Haven't really heard too many other ones.


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## tdc

Lisztian said:


> Probably my favorite piano concerto.


Liszt would be rolling in his grave. (J/k)

I like this piece but haven't really fallen in love with it like so many others have. I don't spend much time listening to Brahms concertos, preferring the symphonies, piano and chamber music. I do think Brahms Piano Concerto no. 2 and the Violin concerto are the best concertos he composed, I like them roughly equally.


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## Sid James

I do like this piece, its among the ones by Brahms which I like to listen to regularly. It’s the mellow mood which attracts me, similar in terms of his orchestral music to Symphony No. 3.

I have no reservations now. When I first heard it I was baffled by its complexity, and it made less of an immediate impression compared to his first concerto. I was a much less experienced listener then, and the two concertos are very different (eg. one an early work, the other a mature one).

I’ve got the Richter/Leinsdorf recording others have mentioned.

Incidentally, it’s interesting to have this and Mozart’s 20th on the TC list. Brahms admired it and liked to play it at concerts.


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## DavidA

Terrific piece. I fell in love with it as a teen when I got the old Serkin / Ormandy recording, which I managed to obtain again on CD. White hot as is his version with Szell.
Prefer Gilels with Reiner to that with Jochum as it is a livelier performance. 
Then Fleisher / Szell is wonderful and Anda / Karajan.
I also have Curzon somewhere and recently got Ogden in a remarkable live performance with Barbirolli.
Friere / Chailly is the best digital version and I also have van Cliburn.
But the greatest and indispensable is Richter / Leinsdorf (or his later one with Maazel)


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## Woodduck

I like the genial lyricism of the 2nd Concerto, but somewhat prefer the darker, knottier, more angsty and ruminative 1st.


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## larold

I enjoyed it as a young collector and arrived at the Sviatoslav Richter recording on RCA as a favorite. I haven't listened to it in years; too high caloric for me today. It is one of several hundred pieces of music I overdosed on early in life that I will probably never return to. I heard it in concert on the radio the other night and turned it off.


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## perdido34

Gilels/Reiner/CSO has been my longtime favorite. The JVC xrcd remaster sounds significantly better than previous CD issues.


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## hammeredklavier

I haven't seen anybody talking about the resemblances, has anyone noticed them?

*[ 0:46 ]*


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## Brahmsianhorn

I did an exhaustive survey of this work last year. I prefer the lush treatment of Gilels/Jochum for a modern recording to live with, but I also enjoy the Gilels/Reiner. Not as big a fan of Fleisher/Szell, despite a lovely adagio. I think their 1st is much livelier.

My “essentials” list: (Any of these nine could be a first choice in my book)

- Artur Schnabel/Sir Adrian Boult (Naxos, Pearl)

- Emil Gilels/Eugen Jochum (DG)

- Solomon/Issay Dobrowen (Testament)

- Daniel Barenboim/Sir John Barbirolli (EMI)

- Wilhelm Backhaus/Karl Böhm (1967) (Decca)

- Edwin Fischer/Wilhelm Furtwängler (DG, Music & Arts, Testament)

- Sviatoslav Richter/Erich Leinsdorf (RCA)

- Emil Gilels/Fritz Reiner (RCA, EMI)

- Rudolf Serkin/George Szell (Sony)


And for “additional listening”:

- Clifford Curzon/Hans Knappertsbusch (1955) (Orfeo, Archipel)

- Wilhelm Backhaus/Karl Böhm (1939) (EMI, Biddulph, Naxos, Dante)

- Myra Hess/Bruno Walter (Tahra, IDIS, AS)

- Geza Anda/Ferenc Fricsay (DG, Belart)

- Vladimir Horowitz/Arturo Toscanini (1940) (RCA, Naxos, Classica D’Oro)

- Leon Fleisher/George Szell (Sony)

- Clifford Curzon/Hans Knappertsbursch (1957) (Decca)

- Artur Rubinstein/Josef Krips (RCA)

- Hans Richter-Haaser/Herbert von Karajan (EMI)

- Claudio Arrau/Carlo Maria Giulini (EMI)

- Krystian Zimerman/Leonard Bernstein (DG)

- Maurizio Pollini/Claudio Abbado (DG)

- Nelson Freire/Riccardo Chailly (Decca)


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## DavidA

Just to mention that Serkin's earlier (mono) recording of the concerto with Ormandy is terrific


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## Allegro Con Brio

Certainly a granddaddy among concerti! In it I think we find a perfect summation of Brahms's art if there ever was one - genial lyricism, sweeping drama, scads of delicate subtleties, opulent melodies, driving passion, and little touches of graceful wit here and there to lighten up the compositional brilliance. It's one of the only works I've ever seen live, in a scorching performance by a young Finnish pianist named Juho Pohjonen (even though the poor cellist wobbled throughout the pivotal obbligato part during the Adagio). It doesn't necessarily require flashy virtuosity like the Rachmaninoff and Prokofiev concerti, but it needs a _lot_ of strength and technique, not to mention a formidable memory, to pull off. As a pianist, I've had a look at the score and I can tell you that it's an absolute nightmare. As beautifully as Brahms could write for the instrument he obviously had hands the size of dinner plates. The first movement here may be one of his most perfect creations in any genre. Other favorite moments in the work include the trio of the scherzo, the seraphic second half of the Adagio (this movement gives us a tantalizing glimpse of what a Brahms Cello Concerto might have looked like) and the strangely lightweight but entertaining dance episodes in the finale. It's not quite my favorite piano concerto, however; and I even prefer the smashing 1st concerto to it some days.

Gilels/Reiner is greater than Gilels/Jochum by a mile for me. Also Richter/Leinsdorf, even though the way Richter plays concerti can sometimes be unnecessarily bumpy and bogged-down (hard to describe in words). Would recommend the effortless virtuosity of Zimerman/Bernstein as well.


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## Brahmsianhorn

Gilels/Reiner is certainly super charged and virtuosic, but the grand symphonic beauty for me comes through best in the opulent Gilels/Jochum. This is a big concerto, and it needs to sound that way. Barenboim/Barbirolli is also great in this regard.


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## flamencosketches

Quite possibly my favorite piano concerto and favorite work by Brahms. It's an absolute masterpiece

I like Gilels/Jochum/BPO & Rubinstein/Krips/RCA. I'm quite curious about Ashkenazy/Haitink/Vienna as well. Any fans here? It does not seem to get mentioned much.


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## Bigbang

flamencosketches said:


> Quite possibly my favorite piano concerto and favorite work by Brahms. It's an absolute masterpiece
> 
> I like Gilels/Jochum/BPO & Rubinstein/Krips/RCA. I'm quite curious about Ashkenazy/Haitink/Vienna as well. Any fans here? It does not seem to get mentioned much.


Funny I am listening to it as I was reading your post. I am a fan but have not seen a reason to add to my collection. The other one is Kovacevich. This one does not get any attention but will have to play is again.


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## Brahmsianhorn

Ashkenazy/Haitink was my introduction to the Brahms piano concertos. Then I discovered Gilels/Jochum and sold them off. Haven't heard them in probably 25 years.


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## bz3

I, too, prefer Jochum/Gilels. I listen to others but none sniff this one on record for me.


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## jim prideaux

my introduction years ago was DG vinyl.....Pollini, Abbado and the VPO.....does not seem to receive much praise and these days I listen to either Frieire or Gilels. However at some point I would like to return to Pollini.

I agree with all the positive observations above as I personally regard it as the epitome of the 'piano concerto' in so many regards!


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## DavidA

DavidA said:


> Just to mention that Serkin's earlier (mono) recording of the concerto with Ormandy is terrific


I actually got to know the work with this one and it is a terrific performance with a Serkin at his absolute peak.


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## The3Bs

For a long time it was the only Brahms concerto I listened to.... lately not so much more, I have been enjoying more the attack and freshness of Brahms 1st.

In terms of favorites? The Emil Gilels/Eugen Jochum (DG) CD was part of my Desert Island CD's (amongst ~50 CD's).

I enjoy though very much also (not in order):
Daniel Barenboim/Sir John Barbirolli (EMI) (how I miss the young Firebrand Baremboim)
Sviatoslav Richter/Erich Leinsdorf (RCA)
Emil Gilels/Fritz Reiner (RCA, EMI)
Nelson Freire/Riccardo Chailly (Decca) 
Grimaud/Nelsons (DG)
Leon Fleisher/George Szell (Sony)

and on the shopping list:
Rudolf Serkin/George Szell (Sony)


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## NLAdriaan

I also got to know the work through Ashkenazy/Haitink/VPO, but mainly because I was totally impressed by the razor sharp Brahms 1 by the same combination with the RCO. Probably Brahms 2 is the most complete piano concerto out there, but I don't give it enough attention. At all, with Brahms piano music it seems difficult to find the right pianist, as far as I am concerned.

I still want to hear Gilels/Jochum and am also curious to hear Freire with Chailly.

And, FWIW, I can still recommend a listen to Brahms 1 with Ashkenazy/Haitink/RCO, one of the first Decca recordings from the notoriously difficult but smooth sounding Concertgebouw. The hall had long been the exclusive domain of Philips, but Decca walked in and proved their famous recording skills.


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## Bigbang

NLAdriaan said:


> I also got to know the work through Ashkenazy/Haitink/VPO, but mainly because I was totally impressed by the razor sharp Brahms 1 by the same combination with the RCO. Probably Brahms 2 is the most complete piano concerto out there, but I don't give it enough attention. At all, with Brahms piano music it seems difficult to find the right pianist, as far as I am concerned.
> 
> I still want to hear Gilels/Jochum and am also curious to hear Freire with Chailly.
> 
> And, FWIW, I can still recommend a listen to Brahms 1 with Ashkenazy/Haitink/RCO, one of the first Decca recordings from the notoriously difficult but smooth sounding Concertgebouw. The hall had long been the exclusive domain of Philips, but Decca walked in and proved their famous recording skills.


What does that mean---"Brahms 2 most complete concerto out there"---as in comparisons to all others? I listen to the first more often and seldom to B2. But Beethoven 5th piano concerto is very symphonic in scope, and if not overexposed really top contender as of of the greatest easily, though B4 is the greatest for some. I am not asking about comparisons but the context of Brahms 2.


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## NLAdriaan

Bigbang said:


> What does that mean---"Brahms 2 most complete concerto out there"---as in comparisons to all others? I listen to the first more often and seldom to B2. But Beethoven 5th piano concerto is very symphonic in scope, and if not overexposed really top contender as of of the greatest easily, though B4 is the greatest for some. I am not asking about comparisons but the context of Brahms 2.


I think of Brahms 2 as the most complete, in terms of length, 4 parts, rich orchestration, dialogue between piano and orchestra, an important role for the cello in the Andante, the important role of the orchestra, not just as the accompanist of the piano, but in its own right and for the overall intensity. Be 5 of course is also a 'symphonic' concerto, but it is still a world apart from Br 2, and not only because of the period in which it was composed. Rach 3 could also be a contender, but this is a typical virtuoso piece, for the pianist to shine (did you see the movie?). Br 2 does all of it in a quite laid back manner, but it is as difficult a piece to play as Rach 3. So, I came to the conclusion that Br 2 is worthy of the title.


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## Simplicissimus

For the last 30 years I’ve relied on Arrau (Haitink/Concertgebouw on Philips) for both Brahms piano concerti. I love them both and can’t rank one ahead of the other. My second choice is Richter (Leinsdorf/Chicago SO on RCA Living Stereo). 

I’m very impressed with Marc-André Hamelin’s and Yuja Wang’s interpretations of No. 2, which I’ve heard/watched on Youtube, etc. Hamelin has a CD with Litton/Dallas SO, but it seems Wang is not on CD performing this work. I think I will need to add Hamelin and Wang to my collection because I find myself going to the computer to listen to the Brahms Piano Concerto No. 2 instead of reaching for my Arrau or Richter discs.


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## DavidA

NLAdriaan said:


> I think of Brahms 2 as the most complete, in terms of length, 4 parts, rich orchestration, dialogue between piano and orchestra, an important role for the cello in the Andante, the important role of the orchestra, not just as the accompanist of the piano, but in its own right and for the overall intensity. Be 5 of course is also a 'symphonic' concerto, but it is still a world apart from Br 2, and not only because of the period when it was composed. Rach 3 could also be a contender, but this is a typical virtuoso piece, for the pianist to shine *(did you see the movie?*). Br 2 does all of it in a quite laid back manner, but it is as difficult a piece to play as Rach 3. So, I came to the conclusion that Br 2 is worthy of the title.


Saw the movie. Full of untruths apparently.


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## NLAdriaan

DavidA said:


> Saw the movie. Full of untruths apparently.


Of course, it's a movie, not a documentary. But I found it entertaining and nice to watch.


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## DavidA

NLAdriaan said:


> Of course, it's a movie, not a documentary. But I found it entertaining and nice to watch.


I felt for the family with the untruths told about them


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## Bigbang

NLAdriaan said:


> I think of Brahms 2 as the most complete, in terms of length, 4 parts, rich orchestration, dialogue between piano and orchestra, an important role for the cello in the Andante, the important role of the orchestra, not just as the accompanist of the piano, but in its own right and for the overall intensity. Be 5 of course is also a 'symphonic' concerto, but it is still a world apart from Br 2, and not only because of the period when it was composed. Rach 3 could also be a contender, but this is a typical virtuoso piece, for the pianist to shine (did you see the movie?). Br 2 does all of it in a quite laid back manner, but it is as difficult a piece to play as Rach 3. So, I came to the conclusion that Br 2 is worthy of the title.


I saw the movie--I am guessing it helped put Rach 3 on the map so to speak. For me, listening to music is also about who wrote the music, the genius and the message behind the music. I connect more easily to Beethoven as it does something to me without me having to strive to understand it, maybe Beethoven should be recognized as the greatest composer for common folk with no listening skills. Anyway I listen to Beethoven 3rd the most of his 5 concertos. Well, I plan to listen more to Brahms 2 in the coming days. Did I just hijacked this thread to give a shout out to Beethoven 3rd piano concerto? Even the slow movement moves me more than romantic piano concertos, like Rach 2.


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## NLAdriaan

DavidA said:


> I felt for the family with the untruths told about them


You must have a big heart.


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## Allegro Con Brio

NLAdriaan said:


> I think of Brahms 2 as the most complete, in terms of length, 4 parts, rich orchestration, dialogue between piano and orchestra, an important role for the cello in the Andante, the important role of the orchestra, not just as the accompanist of the piano, but in its own right and for the overall intensity. Be 5 of course is also a 'symphonic' concerto, but it is still a world apart from Br 2, and not only because of the period in which it was composed. Rach 3 could also be a contender, but this is a typical virtuoso piece, for the pianist to shine (did you see the movie?). Br 2 does all of it in a quite laid back manner, but it is as difficult a piece to play as Rach 3. So, I came to the conclusion that Br 2 is worthy of the title.


This is what I felt too when I saw it live. Too often the Romantics simply wrote bland supporting roles for the orchestra in their concerti, but there is true subtle interplay here, with long orchestral portions alternating with the solo parts as if Brahms gave them a perfectly equal role. The level of dialogue between the parts is incredibly subtle and tasteful. That's what I love most about Brahms's three concerti (I like to pretend the Double Concerto doesn't exist) - there is a feeling of shared narrative poetry between the sides, teaming up to create a symphonic rhetoric that can swing effortlessly between grandeur and intimacy. Every last note means something. The Brahmsian richness never fails to satisfy.


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## NLAdriaan

Bigbang said:


> I saw the movie--I am guessing it helped put Rach 3 on the map so to speak. For me, listening to music is also about who wrote the music, the genius and the message behind the music. I connect more easily to Beethoven as it does something to me without me having to strive to understand it, maybe Beethoven should be recognized as the greatest composer for common folk with no listening skills. Anyway I listen to Beethoven 3rd the most of his 5 concertos. Well, I plan to listen more to Brahms 2 in the coming days. Did I just hijacked this thread to give a shout out to Beethoven 3rd piano concerto? Even the slow movement moves me more than romantic piano concertos, like Rach 2.


Music should not require special listening skills, you like it or you don't. I hold Beethoven higher than Brahms, but this is mostly based on the late piano sonatas, string quartets and some symphonies. Of the pico's, I also prefer the 3rd and 4th over the emperor's concerto. But Brahms of course wrote some beautiful music too, of which pico 2 is a good example.

The movie Shine was not an ad for Rach 3, but it likely helped boost the career of David Helfgott. How tragic and untruthfully romanticized, Helfgott isn't up there with the real Rach musicians. Martha Argerich with Chailly is like from another planet in Rach 3. But of such a successful career you cannot make (up) a dramatic movie.


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## Bigbang

NLAdriaan said:


> Music should not require special listening skills, you like it or you don't. I hold Beethoven higher than Brahms, but this is mostly based on the late piano sonatas, string quartets and some symphonies. Of the pico's, I also prefer the 3rd and 4th over the emperor's concerto. But Brahms of course wrote some beautiful music too, of which pico 2 is a good example.
> 
> The movie Shine was not an ad for Rach 3, but it likely helped boost the career of David Helfgott. How tragic and untruthfully romanticized, Helfgott isn't up there with the real Rach musicians. Martha Argerich with Chailly is like from another planet in Rach 3. But of such a successful career you cannot make (up) a dramatic movie.


I own R3 with Argerich. I guess I am not as enamored by it as I have others too but I think I will give it a spin again over and over until I hear something new. Well, maybe not listening skills per se but patience. Not that many people will give their time to listen to CM. Hence the importance to connect to a composer first, not the piece. Not too mention the artists behind the music to interpret it and give the spirit of the music to us. My opinion of course.


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## DavidA

NLAdriaan said:


> You must have a big heart.


Not really but if my father had been slandered in the way Helfgott's was in the movie I would have been very upset. The family suffered unspeakable hurt particularly because of the totally false portrayal of the father. He was actually a very caring man who did not abuse his son in the way the movie makes out. No-one who knew him in real life recognises the movie's portrayal. Just another Hollywood money-making scams on a gullible public. Same with Helfgott's playing. The whole thing about the Rach 3 is totally false. It is in Margerate Helfgott's book, 'Out of Tune'.


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## DavidA

NLAdriaan said:


> Music should not require special listening skills, you like it or you don't. I hold Beethoven higher than Brahms, but this is mostly based on the late piano sonatas, string quartets and some symphonies. Of the pico's, I also prefer the 3rd and 4th over the emperor's concerto. But Brahms of course wrote some beautiful music too, of which pico 2 is a good example.
> 
> The movie Shine was not an ad for Rach 3, but it likely helped boost the career of David Helfgott. How tragic and untruthfully romanticized, *Helfgott isn't up there with the real Rach musicians. *Martha Argerich with Chailly is like from another planet in Rach 3. But of such a successful career you cannot make (up) a dramatic movie.


At least one radio station wouldn't play it as it was technically not up to standard they required. He did, apparently, play it well a few times before his breakdown. The whole thing about him playing it 'for his daddy' was complete tosh.


----------



## Brahmsianhorn

I feel for both sides in situations like this. My sister has a far different view of our childhood and upbringing from mine. As for Rach 3, Argerich’s view of the piece has never worked for me nearly as well as Byron Janis with Dorati on Mercury. That is for me a desert island piano concerto disc right up there with the Gilels/Jochum Brahms concertos.

I also am a big fan of Beethoven 3. It was the first concerto I liked. In high school I memorized the cadenza because I could never play it by sight. The Perahia/Haitink recording has been my go-to recording all these decades.


----------



## Joachim Raff

I have listened to many versions of this concerto and there are many great performances. Unfortunately many fail on the recording balances. It simply spoils the experience of listening if the strings/piano are too harsh or too forward in the recording. They maybe exciting to some, to others irritation and fatigue start to creep in. I have opted for well balanced and equally great performances:

1st Choice:









2nd Choice:


----------



## Allegro Con Brio

Listening to the Barenboim/Barbirolli right now. What a deep, rich, angsty reading - Brahms as high drama. Brilliant composition, brilliant interpretation.


----------



## Joachim Raff

Allegro Con Brio said:


> Listening to the Barenboim/Barbirolli right now. What a deep, rich, angsty reading - Brahms as high drama. Brilliant composition, brilliant interpretation.


Super performance. Unfortunately, the recording/remaster is far too bright the strings have too much shrill to them. EMI remasters are like a lucky dip sometimes


----------



## Highwayman

I`m slightly surprised that nobody has mentioned Katchen/Ferencsik/LSO. I said slightly, because I believe this recording has its flaws but those are mostly on the side of conductor/orchestra. I very much prefer his 1st with Monteux but still some genuine Brahmsian pianism by Katchen on the 2nd as well.


----------



## Joachim Raff

flamencosketches said:


> Quite possibly my favorite piano concerto and favorite work by Brahms. It's an absolute masterpiece
> 
> I like Gilels/Jochum/BPO & Rubinstein/Krips/RCA. I'm quite curious about as well. Any fans here? It does not seem to get mentioned much.


Yep, I love the Ashkenazy/Haitink/Vienna it ticks all the boxes for me. What like his approach is a tight hold and unobtrusive manner. He is very consistent and lets Brahms speak for himself. I love the transfer as well. The sound is absolute and superbly balanced. I heard Gilels/Jochum/BPO on the Originals series and i was not impressed with the remaster. Perhaps other remasters are better but i have not heard them, so i cannot comment.


----------



## perdido34

I loved Gilels/Reiner; the best CD reissue is the XRCD version; some of the RCA issues were quite shrill. I found Gilels/Jochum unbearably heavy.

Fleisher/Szell is a close second. The Serkin/Szell stereo version has shrill sound that was not improved when remastered for the recent Szell "Big Box."


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## 444mil

#1: Richter/Leinsdorf
#2: Kovacevich/Davis

For me.


----------



## NLAdriaan

Brahmsianhorn said:


> *I feel for both sides in situations like this. *My sister has a far different view of our childhood and upbringing from mine. As for Rach 3, Argerich's view of the piece has never worked for me nearly as well as Byron Janis with Dorati on Mercury. That is for me a desert island piano concerto disc right up there with the Gilels/Jochum Brahms concertos.
> 
> I also am a big fan of Beethoven 3. It was the first concerto I liked. In high school I memorized the cadenza because I could never play it by sight. The Perahia/Haitink recording has been my go-to recording all these decades.


Yup, Relationships between parents and kids are complex, and also different for each kid. When children grow up to reach stardom, parents will always have a part, either encouraging or traumatizing.

Beethoven-Perahia/Haitink/RCO seems a somewhat dark horse. You don't hear too much of it, but it is also my favourite set.


----------



## Eclectic Al

NLAdriaan said:


> Beethoven-Perahia/Haitink/RCO seems a somewhat dark horse. You don't hear too much of it, but it is also my favourite set.


We seem to have jumped ship from Brahms, but agree about the Perahia Beethoven that you mention. Does any pianist have a greater sense of "taste" than Perahia? Don't ask me to justify that by any technical commentary. I wouldn't be able to do that, and it's a feeling, not an intellectual comment. (By the way, I mean "taste" entirely as a compliment.)


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## DavidA

NLAdriaan said:


> Yup, Relationships between parents and kids are complex, and also different for each kid. When children grow up to reach stardom, *parents will always have a part, either encouraging or traumatizing*.
> 
> Beethoven-Perahia/Haitink/RCO seems a somewhat dark horse. You don't hear too much of it, but it is also my favourite set.


The problem was in Shine the part played by the parents was simply untrue. So tragic for that family and David himself actually









It was more like in this real life picture. Funny the film even had the father speaking with a German accent as if he was a member of the SS when in fact the guy was Australian. Absolute claptrap


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## NLAdriaan

DavidA said:


> ...Funny the film even had the father speaking with a German accent as if he was a member of the SS when in fact the guy was Australian....


:lol: Now, your imagination takes over:lol: The part of the father was played by Armin Mueller-Stahl, a German actor. And not all Germans were Nazi's, as you keep defending here, when you-know-who is concerned:lol:

You might watch 'Night on Earth' by Jim Jarmusch, where Mueller-Stahl plays a sweet German immigrant taxidriver in New York.


----------



## NLAdriaan

Eclectic Al said:


> We seem to have jumped ship from Brahms, but agree about the Perahia Beethoven that you mention. Does any pianist have a greater sense of "taste" than Perahia? Don't ask me to justify that by any technical commentary. I wouldn't be able to do that, and it's a feeling, not an intellectual comment. (By the way, I mean "taste" entirely as a compliment.)


Just a little sidestep, happens a lot around here
The funny thing is that I do like Perahia in concerto's, like Beethoven and Mozart, but as a soloist I really don't.


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## DavidA

NLAdriaan said:


> :lol: Now, your imagination takes over:lol: The part of the father was played by Armin Mueller-Stahl, a German actor. And not all Germans were Nazi's, as you keep defending here, when you-know-who is concerned:lol:


Why should they have the part of an Australian played who had an Australian accent played by a German actor with a German accent? And with the movie's emphasis on death camps what was the impression? It was ironic as the father had never been outside Australia (and spoke with an Australian accent) that the movie gave the impression that he had spent time in a concentration camp and that had damaged him. The scenes with barbed wire! Where did they come from? It was total Hollywood hokum. It's ironic that you are accusing my imagination of taking over when it's yours that's taking over as you are believing this stuff! :lol: I know people would prefer to believe the Hollywood version but when it hurts a living family as it did the Helfgotts to me it's just downright immoral.


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## Enthusiast

A very great and very serious concerto. There are quite a few recordings I would hate to be without, including (off the top of my head)

Barenboim/Barbirolli
Serkin/Szell
Kovacevich/Davis
Freire/Chailly
Gilels/Reiner
Zimerman/Bernstein

All are quite distinctive (and therefore different from each other) and all are (to my ears) true to the music.


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## MarkW

Off topic but what the hell . . . Give me a Gilels listening list. When I was a student I got the then new Gilels/Szell Emperor Concerto and was unimpressed. So from that sample of one, I've avoided him ever since. From the opinions
expressed on this forum, I was clearly hasty. What should I listen to?


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## wkasimer

MarkW said:


> Off topic but what the hell . . . Give me a Gilels listening list. When I was a student I got the then new Gilels/Szell Emperor Concerto and was unimpressed. So from that sample of one, I've avoided him ever since. From the opinions
> expressed on this forum, I was clearly hasty. What should I listen to?


His not-quite-complete set of the Beethoven sonatas is essential, as is the Brahms 2nd concerto with Reiner, as mentioned by others.


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## DavidA

MarkW said:


> Off topic but what the hell . . . Give me a Gilels listening list. When I was a student I got the then new Gilels/Szell Emperor Concerto and was unimpressed. So from that sample of one, I've avoided him ever since. From the opinions
> expressed on this forum, I was clearly hasty. What should I listen to?


It is interesting that is one of his recordings that has drawn pretty cool reviews. Get the Brahms second piano concerto conducted by Reiner or his Chopin 1 with Ormandy and hear the magic


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## Joachim Raff

MarkW said:


> Off topic but what the hell . . . Give me a Gilels listening list. When I was a student I got the then new Gilels/Szell Emperor Concerto and was unimpressed. So from that sample of one, I've avoided him ever since. From the opinions
> expressed on this forum, I was clearly hasty. What should I listen to?


Here is a thread purely for Gilels. Check it out and contribute.
Emil Gilels


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## Brahmsianhorn

Gilels’ most famous recording is the coupling of the Brahms 1st and 2nd with Jochum. Both are my go-to version. Big, grand conceptions in opulent sound that are thoroughly engaging. The 2nd with Reiner is a great alternative that features faster speeds and more virtuosity.

Also, his Grieg Lyric pieces are a must.

Other great recordings:

Pretty much all his DG Beethoven sonatas, especially Hammerklavier, Appassionata, Waldstein, and Les Aieux.

Piano concertos 4 and 5 on Testament with Leopold Ludwig.

Also a very lovely DG Mozart concerto No. 27.


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## Brahmsianhorn

NLAdriaan said:


> Just a little sidestep, happens a lot around here
> The funny thing is that I do like Perahia in concerto's, like Beethoven and Mozart, but as a soloist I really don't.


I specifically like his 4th Beethoven concerto, which of course is more classical. In Nos 4 and 5, I prefer Gilels and Fleisher. Kovacevich is also quite good. And don't forget the golden oldies Schnabel and Solomon.


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## Enthusiast

wkasimer said:


> His not-quite-complete set of the Beethoven sonatas is essential, as is the Brahms 2nd concerto with Reiner, as mentioned by others.


Fair enough and we all have different tastes but that word "essential" for his Beethoven sonatas! I do like many of the sonatas in this set but his playing is a little cold and there are quite a few sets I would recommend before that one.


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## flamencosketches

Enthusiast said:


> Fair enough and we all have different tastes but that word "essential" for his Beethoven sonatas! I do like many of the sonatas in this set but his playing is a little cold and there are quite a few sets I would recommend before that one.


I feel the same way, but that is a lot of people's favorite Beethoven set. I may not agree but I understand someone calling it essential at least.


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## wkasimer

flamencosketches said:


> I feel the same way, but that is a lot of people's favorite Beethoven set. I may not agree but I understand someone calling it essential at least.


It's essential if you want to hear Gilels at his best. I wasn't suggesting that it's essential for someone interested in Beethoven.


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## Enthusiast

flamencosketches said:


> I feel the same way, but that is a lot of people's favorite Beethoven set. I may not agree but I understand someone calling it essential at least.


Normally I would probably have restrained myself but "essential" led to my wanting to signal that the opinion may be controversial. I guess discussing such things is part of what this forum can be about.


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## Enthusiast

wkasimer said:


> It's essential if you want to hear Gilels at his best. I wasn't suggesting that it's essential for someone interested in Beethoven.


Fair enough - and no offense intended from my side.


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## Allegro Con Brio

Gilels is my favorite Beethoven pianist of the stereo era. He gets under the surface of the music and uses his monstrous technique and tonal palette to go straight to the heart of Beethoven IMO. “Cold” is about the last adjective I would use (maybe with pianists like Gould and Pollini I could see that, but not Gilels). His championing of the Brahms concerti is absolutely, uniformly excellent - I do love the recordings with Jochum for their magisterial musicality though I do prefer the version with Reiner for No. 2 since it moves forward with more vigor. Also on the concerti album with Jochum is his recording of the 7 Fantasien Op. 116 - sumptuous interpretations of deeply profound music.


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## 444mil

Enthusiast said:


> Fair enough and we all have different tastes but that word "essential" for his Beethoven sonatas! I do like many of the sonatas in this set but his playing is a little cold and there are quite a few sets I would recommend before that one.


I feel the same. His hammerklavier is very regarded. I like it, but it wouldn't be my top choice.

For Brahms, i prefer his recording with Reiner.

Also i found his praised Beethoven 4h concerto with Ludwig dull.


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## perdido34

NLAdriaan said:


> You might watch 'Night on Earth' by Jim Jarmusch, where Mueller-Stahl plays a sweet German immigrant taxidriver in New York.


He's one of my favorite actors. Check out Avalon, where he plays a Jewish immigrant to the US from Germany. And then watch Music Box, where he plays someone accused of WW2 war crimes.


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## bz3

I like all of Gilels but I don't get why Reiner plows through Brahms like he does. Even the infamous Heifetz/Reiner Brahms violin concerto is one of the more rapid I've heard. There's certainly some works I like at brisk pace but the Brahms concertos aren't among them (or his symphonies, for that matter, except for the 1st). If there is one work by Brahms that I thinks demands a more contemplative pace it's the 2nd piano concerto.


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## 444mil

bz3 said:


> I like all of Gilels but I don't get why Reiner plows through Brahms like he does. Even the infamous Heifetz/Reiner Brahms violin concerto is one of the more rapid I've heard. There's certainly some works I like at brisk pace but the Brahms concertos aren't among them (or his symphonies, for that matter, except for the 1st). If there is one work by Brahms that I thinks demands a more contemplative pace it's the 2nd piano concerto.


I love both of them, but i find them boring if played very slowly. That's why i love richter and kovacevich for the 2nd. I have not a favorite for the first yet.


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## Brahmsianhorn

bz3 said:


> I like all of Gilels but I don't get why Reiner plows through Brahms like he does. Even the infamous Heifetz/Reiner Brahms violin concerto is one of the more rapid I've heard. There's certainly some works I like at brisk pace but the Brahms concertos aren't among them (or his symphonies, for that matter, except for the 1st). If there is one work by Brahms that I thinks demands a more contemplative pace it's the 2nd piano concerto.


Thank you!!!!! And I feel the same way about the Heifetz/Reiner Brahms violin concerto, my favorite piece in the world. Cold, mechanical, and fast for the sake of fast. I can name 60 better recordings, and that's no joke. I'll list them all if you want.


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## DavidA

Brahmsianhorn said:


> Thank you!!!!! And I feel the same way about the Heifetz/Reiner Brahms violin concerto, my favorite piece in the world. Cold, mechanical, and fast for the sake of fast. I can name 60 better recordings, and that's no joke. I'll list them all if you want.


Funny your ears are tuned so different to most people! :lol:

Please spare us the listing!


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## DavidA

bz3 said:


> I like all of Gilels but I don't get why Reiner plows through Brahms like he does. Even the infamous Heifetz/Reiner Brahms violin concerto is one of the more rapid I've heard. There's certainly some works I like at brisk pace but the Brahms concertos aren't among them (or his symphonies, for that matter, except for the 1st). If there is one work by Brahms that I thinks demands a more contemplative pace it's the 2nd piano concerto.


Actually the way Reiner conducts Brahms with Gilles are probably more akin to to the Tempi Brahms himself would have imagined. Backhaus who actually knew Brahms adopted brisker tempi. Certainly Gilels first Fiery recording is far preferable to his later one


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## Brahmsianhorn

DavidA said:


> Please spare us the listing!


Certainly! :tiphat:

1.	Bronislaw Huberman/Artur Rodzinski (Music & Arts, Pristine) *****
2.	Fritz Kreisler/Leo Blech (Naxos, Music & Arts, Biddulph, Pearl) *****
3.	Fritz Kreisler/John Barbirolli (Naxos, Biddulph, Opus Kura, Classica d'Oro, Strings) *****
4.	Jascha Heifetz/Serge Koussevitzky (RCA, Naxos, IDIS) *****
5.	Joseph Szigeti/Sir Hamilton Harty (EMI, Naxos) *****
6.	Adolf Busch/Hans Münch (Guild, Music & Arts, Arbiter) *****
7.	Herman Krebbers/Bernard Haitink (Philips) *****
8.	Ginette Neveu/Roger Desormière (Tahra, SWR) *****
9.	Efrem Zimbalist/Serge Koussevitzky (Doremi, Pristine) *****
10.	Ginette Neveu/Issay Dobrowen (Dutton, EMI) *****
11.	Georg Kulenkampff/Hans Schmidt-Isserstedt (Dutton, Pearl) *****
12.	Jascha Heifetz /Arturo Toscanini (Doremi, IDIS) *****
13.	Itzhak Perlman/Carlo Maria Giulini (EMI) *****
14.	Christian Ferras/Rudolf Kempe (Archipel) *****
15.	Erica Morini/George Szell (Music & Arts) *****
16.	Erica Morini/Bruno Walter (Tahra, Archipel, Nuova Era) *****
17.	Adolf Busch/William Steinberg (Music & Arts) *****
18.	David Oistrakh/Otmar Nussio (Ermitage, Aura) *****
19.	David Oistrakh/Kirill Kondrashin (1963 rec.) (BBC) *****
20.	David Oistrakh/Otto Klemperer (EMI) *****
21.	Nathan Milstein/Anatole Fistoulari (Praga, EMI) *****
22.	Johanna Martzy/Paul Kletzki (Testament) *****
23.	Nathan Milstein/William Steinberg (EMI) ****1/2
24.	David Oistrakh/George Szell (EMI) ****1/2
25.	Jascha Heifetz /George Szell (Prelude) ****1/2
26.	Gioconda de Vito/Paul van Kempen (Naxos, Arkadia) ****1/2
27.	Yehudi Menuhin/Wilhelm Furtwängler (Tahra, Naxos, EMI) ****1/2
28.	Nathan Milstein/Paul Kletzki (Claves) ****1/2
29.	David Oistrakh/Charles Bruck (INA) ****1/2
30.	David Oistrakh/Sir Malcolm Sargent (BBC) ****1/2
31.	Leonid Kogan/Kirill Kondrashin (1967 rec.) (Melodiya LP) ****1/2
32.	Leonid Kogan/Karl Eliasberg (Monopole, Arlecchino, Music Online) ****1/2
33.	Ginette Neveu/Hans Schmidt-Isserstedt (Tahra, Scribendum, Acanta) ****1/2
34.	Ginette Neveu/Antal Doráti (Music & Arts) ****1/2
35.	Christian Ferras/Carl Schuricht (Testament) ****1/2
36.	Erica Morini/Artur Rodzinski (DG, Westminster, Millennium) ****1/2
37.	David Oistrakh/Kirill Kondrashin (1952 rec.) (Melodiya, Omega, Urania, Moscow Studio) ****1/2
38.	David Oistrakh/Hermann Abendroth (Tahra, Scribendum) ****
39.	David Oistrakh/Franz Konwitschny (DG, Profil, Ds Classics) ****
40.	Nathan Milstein/Pierre Monteux (Tahra, Arioso, Music & Arts, Audiophile) ****
41.	David Oistrakh/Antonio Pedrotti (Supraphon, Multisonic) ****
42.	Anne-Sophie Mutter/Kurt Masur (DG) ****
43.	David Oistrakh/Fritz Rieger (Archipel) ****
44.	Nathan Milstein/Victor de Sabata (Tahra, Archipel, Nuova Era, Arkadia) ****
45.	Herman Krebbers/Hein Jordans (Philips, Fontana LP) ****
46.	David Oistrakh/Gennadi Rozhdestvensky (1966 rec.) (EMG, Leningrad Masters, Icone) ****
47.	Gioconda de Vito/Wilhelm Furtwängler (Tahra, Idis, Urania, Music & Arts) ****
48.	Leonid Kogan/Kirill Kondrashin (1959 rec.) (EMI, Guild) ****
49.	Leonid Kogan/Pierre Monteux (Doremi, Melodiya) ****
50.	Yehudi Menuhin/Sir Adrian Boult (BBC) ****
51.	Leonid Kogan/Charles Bruck (Testament) ****
52.	Janine Jansen/Antonio Pappano (Decca) ****
53.	Henryk Szeryng/Pierre Monteux (RCA, JVC) ****
54.	Gioconda de Vito/Eugen Jochum (Tahra) ****
55.	Gioconda de Vito/Rudolf Schwarz (Archipel, Amare) ****
56.	Xue-Wei/Ivor Bolton (ASV) ****
57.	Ida Haendel/Sergiu Celibidache (Testament) ****
58.	Isaac Stern/Sir Thomas Beecham (Sony) ****
59.	Yehudi Menuhin/Rudolf Kempe (EMI) ****
60.	Arthur Grumiaux/Eduard van Beinum (Philips, Regis) ****
61.	Joseph Szigeti/Dmitri Mitropoulos (Music & Arts, Legend, Enterprise) ***1/2
62.	Jascha Heifetz/Fritz Reiner (RCA) ***1/2


----------



## DavidA

Brahmsianhorn said:


> Certainly! :tiphat:
> 
> 1.	Bronislaw Huberman/Artur Rodzinski (Music & Arts, Pristine) *****
> 2.	Fritz Kreisler/Leo Blech (Naxos, Music & Arts, Biddulph, Pearl) *****
> 3.	Fritz Kreisler/John Barbirolli (Naxos, Biddulph, Opus Kura, Classica d'Oro, Strings) *****
> 4.	Jascha Heifetz/Serge Koussevitzky (RCA, Naxos, IDIS) *****
> 5.	Joseph Szigeti/Sir Hamilton Harty (EMI, Naxos) *****
> 6.	Adolf Busch/Hans Münch (Guild, Music & Arts, Arbiter) *****
> 7.	Herman Krebbers/Bernard Haitink (Philips) *****
> 8.	Ginette Neveu/Roger Desormière (Tahra, SWR) *****
> 9.	Efrem Zimbalist/Serge Koussevitzky (Doremi, Pristine) *****
> 10.	Ginette Neveu/Issay Dobrowen (Dutton, EMI) *****
> 11.	Georg Kulenkampff/Hans Schmidt-Isserstedt (Dutton, Pearl) *****
> 12.	Jascha Heifetz /Arturo Toscanini (Doremi, IDIS) *****
> 13.	Itzhak Perlman/Carlo Maria Giulini (EMI) *****
> 14.	Christian Ferras/Rudolf Kempe (Archipel) *****
> 15.	Erica Morini/George Szell (Music & Arts) *****
> 16.	Erica Morini/Bruno Walter (Tahra, Archipel, Nuova Era) *****
> 17.	Adolf Busch/William Steinberg (Music & Arts) *****
> 18.	David Oistrakh/Otmar Nussio (Ermitage, Aura) *****
> 19.	David Oistrakh/Kirill Kondrashin (1963 rec.) (BBC) *****
> 20.	David Oistrakh/Otto Klemperer (EMI) *****
> 21.	Nathan Milstein/Anatole Fistoulari (Praga, EMI) *****
> 22.	Johanna Martzy/Paul Kletzki (Testament) *****
> 23.	Nathan Milstein/William Steinberg (EMI) ****1/2
> 24.	David Oistrakh/George Szell (EMI) ****1/2
> 25.	Jascha Heifetz /George Szell (Prelude) ****1/2
> 26.	Gioconda de Vito/Paul van Kempen (Naxos, Arkadia) ****1/2
> 27.	Yehudi Menuhin/Wilhelm Furtwängler (Tahra, Naxos, EMI) ****1/2
> 28.	Nathan Milstein/Paul Kletzki (Claves) ****1/2
> 29.	David Oistrakh/Charles Bruck (INA) ****1/2
> 30.	David Oistrakh/Sir Malcolm Sargent (BBC) ****1/2
> 31.	Leonid Kogan/Kirill Kondrashin (1967 rec.) (Melodiya LP) ****1/2
> 32.	Leonid Kogan/Karl Eliasberg (Monopole, Arlecchino, Music Online) ****1/2
> 33.	Ginette Neveu/Hans Schmidt-Isserstedt (Tahra, Scribendum, Acanta) ****1/2
> 34.	Ginette Neveu/Antal Doráti (Music & Arts) ****1/2
> 35.	Christian Ferras/Carl Schuricht (Testament) ****1/2
> 36.	Erica Morini/Artur Rodzinski (DG, Westminster, Millennium) ****1/2
> 37.	David Oistrakh/Kirill Kondrashin (1952 rec.) (Melodiya, Omega, Urania, Moscow Studio) ****1/2
> 38.	David Oistrakh/Hermann Abendroth (Tahra, Scribendum) ****
> 39.	David Oistrakh/Franz Konwitschny (DG, Profil, Ds Classics) ****
> 40.	Nathan Milstein/Pierre Monteux (Tahra, Arioso, Music & Arts, Audiophile) ****
> 41.	David Oistrakh/Antonio Pedrotti (Supraphon, Multisonic) ****
> 42.	Anne-Sophie Mutter/Kurt Masur (DG) ****
> 43.	David Oistrakh/Fritz Rieger (Archipel) ****
> 44.	Nathan Milstein/Victor de Sabata (Tahra, Archipel, Nuova Era, Arkadia) ****
> 45.	Herman Krebbers/Hein Jordans (Philips, Fontana LP) ****
> 46.	David Oistrakh/Gennadi Rozhdestvensky (1966 rec.) (EMG, Leningrad Masters, Icone) ****
> 47.	Gioconda de Vito/Wilhelm Furtwängler (Tahra, Idis, Urania, Music & Arts) ****
> 48.	Leonid Kogan/Kirill Kondrashin (1959 rec.) (EMI, Guild) ****
> 49.	Leonid Kogan/Pierre Monteux (Doremi, Melodiya) ****
> 50.	Yehudi Menuhin/Sir Adrian Boult (BBC) ****
> 51.	Leonid Kogan/Charles Bruck (Testament) ****
> 52.	Janine Jansen/Antonio Pappano (Decca) ****
> 53.	Henryk Szeryng/Pierre Monteux (RCA, JVC) ****
> 54.	Gioconda de Vito/Eugen Jochum (Tahra) ****
> 55.	Gioconda de Vito/Rudolf Schwarz (Archipel, Amare) ****
> 56.	Xue-Wei/Ivor Bolton (ASV) ****
> 57.	Ida Haendel/Sergiu Celibidache (Testament) ****
> 58.	Isaac Stern/Sir Thomas Beecham (Sony) ****
> 59.	Yehudi Menuhin/Rudolf Kempe (EMI) ****
> 60.	Arthur Grumiaux/Eduard van Beinum (Philips, Regis) ****
> 61.	Joseph Szigeti/Dmitri Mitropoulos (Music & Arts, Legend, Enterprise) ***1/2
> 62.	Jascha Heifetz/Fritz Reiner (RCA) ***1/2


What's your next joke? :lol:


----------



## Eclectic Al

In relation to this, I looked for the best Brahms Violin Concerto on Google, and guess what came up. A list from June 2017, posted by a certain Brahmsianhorn on this site. It contained 80 recordings. I had a quick go a referencing this against the new list. Lots of new recordings! Although the old list was longer there is not that much overlap. I see that the Heifetz/Reiner used to be 14th and has now dropped to 62. Indeed a lot of recordings have dropped by 48 places: perhaps 48 new recordings have surfaced and been placed highly. Poor old Anne-Sophie Mutter with HvK used to be in 21st place, but has now being consigned to below 62, although she clings on with Kurt Masur at 42nd, down 36 places from 6th. Krebbers/Haitink has only dropped 4 places, so that's perhaps the one which has coped best with new competition. Perlman/Giulini was previously 1st, and has dropped a bit more (to 13th).
What this says to me is that a lot of recordings (especially old ones) keep being made available, so if you keep up with those and tend to favour older recordings then previous favourites may indeed drift down. Perversely one might argue that more old recordings are now being made than new ones - if by "being made" you mean "being made available".


----------



## Brahmsianhorn

Eclectic Al said:


> In relation to this, I looked for the best Brahms Violin Concerto on Google, and guess what came up. A list from June 2017, posted by a certain Brahmsianhorn on this site. It contained 80 recordings. I had a quick go a referencing this against the new list. Lots of new recordings! Although the old list was longer there is not that much overlap. I see that the Heifetz/Reiner used to be 14th and has now dropped to 62. Indeed a lot of recordings have dropped by 48 places: perhaps 48 new recordings have surfaced and been placed highly. Poor old Anne-Sophie Mutter with HvK used to be in 21st place, but has now being consigned to below 62, although she clings on with Kurt Masur at 42nd, down 36 places from 6th. Krebbers/Haitink has only dropped 4 places, so that's perhaps the one which has coped best with new competition. Perlman/Giulini was previously 1st, and has dropped a bit more (to 13th).
> What this says to me is that a lot of recordings (especially old ones) keep being made available, so if you keep up with those and tend to favour older recordings then previous favourites may indeed drift down. Perversely one might argue that more old recordings are now being made than new ones - if by "being made" you mean "being made available".


LOL. Go look again. The list you looked at was specifically of recordings in "studio/stereo" sound. So your conclusions are all misguided.

Brahms Violin Concerto recordings in stereo/studio sound, ranked

1.	Itzhak Perlman/Carlo Maria Giulini (EMI) *****
2.	David Oistrakh/George Szell (EMI) *****
3.	Herman Krebbers/Bernard Haitink (Philips) ****1/2
4.	Nathan Milstein/Anatole Fistoulari (Praga, EMI) ****1/2
5.	Erica Morini/Artur Rodzinski (DG, Westminster, Millennium) ****1/2
6.	Anne-Sophie Mutter/Kurt Masur (DG) ****
7.	Leonid Kogan/Kirill Kondrashin (EMI, Guild) ****
8.	Janine Jansen/Antonio Pappano (Decca) ****
9.	Henryk Szeryng/Pierre Monteux (RCA, JVC) ****
10.	Xue-Wei/Ivor Bolton (ASV) ****
11.	Yehudi Menuhin/Rudolf Kempe (EMI) ****
12.	Arthur Grumiaux/Eduard van Beinum (Philips, Regis) ****
13.	David Oistrakh/Otto Klemperer (EMI) ***1/2
14.	Jascha Heifetz /Fritz Reiner (RCA) ***1/2
15.	Vadim Repin/Riccardo Chailly (DG) ***1/2
16.	Joshua Bell/Christoph von Dohnányi (Decca) ***1/2
17.	Henryk Szeryng/Antal Doráti (Mercury) ***1/2
18.	Christian Ferras/Herbert von Karajan (DG) ***1/2
19.	Pinchas Zukerman/Daniel Barenboim (DG) ***1/2
20.	David Garrett/Zubin Mehta (Decca) ***1/2
21.	Anne-Sophie Mutter/Herbert von Karajan (DG) ***1/2
22.	Hideko Udagawa/Sir Charles Mackerras (Chandos, Nimbus) ***1/2
23.	Viktoria Mullova/Claudio Abbado (Philips) ***1/2
24.	Julia Fischer/Yakov Kreizberg (Pentatone) ***1/2
25.	Tasmin Little/Vernon Handley (EMI) ***1/2
26.	Boris Belkin/Iván Fischer (Decca) ***1/2
27.	Shlomo Mintz/Claudio Abbado (DG) ***1/2
28.	Ulf Hoelscher/Klaus Tennstedt (EMI) ***1/2
29.	Gidon Kremer/Leonard Bernstein (DG) ***
30.	Isaac Stern/Eugene Ormandy (Sony) *** 
31.	Hilary Hahn/Sir Neville Marriner (Sony) ***
32.	Gil Shaham/Claudio Abbado (DG) ***
33.	Elmer Oliveira/Gerard Schwarz (Artek) ***
34.	Arthur Grumiaux/Sir Colin Davis (Philips) ***
35.	Mincho Minchev/Vasil Stefanov (Vivace, Balkanton BCA) ***
36.	Thomas Zehetmair (Avie) ***
37.	Ilya Kaler/Pietari Inkinen (Naxos) ***
38.	Gidon Kremer/Herbert von Karajan (EMI) ***
39.	Nathan Milstein/Eugen Jochum (DG, Belart) ***
40.	Zino Francescatti/Leonard Bernstein (Sony) ***
41.	Uto Ughi/Wolfgang Sawallisch (RCA) ***
42.	Takako Nishizaki/Stephen Gunzenhauser (Naxos) ***
43.	Maxim Vengerov/Daniel Barenboim (Teldec) ***
44.	Henryk Szeryng/Bernard Haitink (Philips) ***
45.	Leonidas Kavakos/Riccardo Chailly (Decca) **1/2
46.	Julian Rachlin/Mariss Jansons (Warner) **1/2
47.	Sarah Chang/Kurt Masur (EMI) **1/2
48.	Lisa Batiashvili/Christian Thieleman (DG) **1/2
49.	Antje Weithaas (CAvi-Music) **1/2
50.	David Nadien/Vilem Sokol (Cambal d'amour) **1/2
51.	Thomas Zehetmair/Christoph von Dohnányi (Teldec) **1/2
52.	Aaron Rosand (Vox) **1/2
53.	Pinchas Zukerman/Zubin Mehta (RCA) **1/2
54.	Susanne Lautenbacher/Robert Wagner (Vox, Family Library of Great Music) **1/2
55.	Viktor Tretyakov/Yuri Temirkanov (Brilliant Classics) **1/2
56.	Viktor Tretyakov/Vladimir Fedoseyev (Revelation, Olympia) **1/2
57.	Alexei Bruni/Ilmar Lapinsch (EMG) **1/2
58.	Joseph Swensen (Linn) **1/2
59.	Vladimir Spikakov/Yuri Temirkanov (RCA) **1/2
60.	Renaud Capuçon/Daniel Harding (Erato) **1/2
61.	Kyung Wha Chung/Simon Rattle (EMI) **1/2
62.	Itzhak Perlman/Daniel Barenboim (EMI) **1/2
63.	Raphaël Oleg/Libor Pešek (Denon) **1/2
64.	Rachel Barton Pine/Carlos Kalmar (Cedille) **1/2
65.	Frank Peter Zimmermann/Wolfgang Sawallisch (EMI) **1/2
66.	Frank Peter Zimmermann/Alan Gilbert (New York Philharmonic) **1/2
67.	Bohuslav Matoušek/Vladimir Válek (Stradivari) **1/2
68.	Dmitry Sitkovetsky/Sir Neville Marriner (Hänssler) **1/2
69.	Nadja Salerno-Sonnenberg/Edo de Waart (EMI) **1/2
70.	Borika van den Booren/Eduardo Marturet (Brilliant) **1/2
71.	Nikolaj Znaider/Valery Gergiev (RCA) **1/2
72.	Benjamin Schmid/Cristian Mandeal (Oehms) **
73.	Andrés Cárdenes/Ian Hobson (Artek) **
74.	Takayoshi Wanami/Adrian Leaper (IMP) **
75.	Ivan Czerkov/Helmut Bucher (Denon) **
76.	Christian Tetzlaff/Thomas Dausgaard (Virgin) **
77.	Katrin Scholz/Michael Sanderling (Berlin Classics) **
78.	Isabelle Faust/Daniel Harding (Harmonia Mundi) **
79.	Evgueni Bushkov/Alexander Rahbari (Discover) **
80.	Nigel Kennedy/Klaus Tennstedt (EMI) **


----------



## Eclectic Al

Wow. Lists and sub-lists.


----------



## DavidA

Brahmsianhorn said:


> LOL. Go look again. The list you looked at was specifically of recordings in "studio/stereo" sound. So your conclusions are all misguided.
> 
> Brahms Violin Concerto recordings in stereo/studio sound, ranked
> 
> 1.	Itzhak Perlman/Carlo Maria Giulini (EMI) *****
> 2.	David Oistrakh/George Szell (EMI) *****
> 3.	Herman Krebbers/Bernard Haitink (Philips) ****1/2
> 4.	Nathan Milstein/Anatole Fistoulari (Praga, EMI) ****1/2
> 5.	Erica Morini/Artur Rodzinski (DG, Westminster, Millennium) ****1/2
> 6.	Anne-Sophie Mutter/Kurt Masur (DG) ****
> 7.	Leonid Kogan/Kirill Kondrashin (EMI, Guild) ****
> 8.	Janine Jansen/Antonio Pappano (Decca) ****
> 9.	Henryk Szeryng/Pierre Monteux (RCA, JVC) ****
> 10.	Xue-Wei/Ivor Bolton (ASV) ****
> 11.	Yehudi Menuhin/Rudolf Kempe (EMI) ****
> 12.	Arthur Grumiaux/Eduard van Beinum (Philips, Regis) ****
> 13.	David Oistrakh/Otto Klemperer (EMI) ***1/2
> 14.	Jascha Heifetz /Fritz Reiner (RCA) ***1/2
> 15.	Vadim Repin/Riccardo Chailly (DG) ***1/2
> 16.	Joshua Bell/Christoph von Dohnányi (Decca) ***1/2
> 17.	Henryk Szeryng/Antal Doráti (Mercury) ***1/2
> 18.	Christian Ferras/Herbert von Karajan (DG) ***1/2
> 19.	Pinchas Zukerman/Daniel Barenboim (DG) ***1/2
> 20.	David Garrett/Zubin Mehta (Decca) ***1/2
> 21.	Anne-Sophie Mutter/Herbert von Karajan (DG) ***1/2
> 22.	Hideko Udagawa/Sir Charles Mackerras (Chandos, Nimbus) ***1/2
> 23.	Viktoria Mullova/Claudio Abbado (Philips) ***1/2
> 24.	Julia Fischer/Yakov Kreizberg (Pentatone) ***1/2
> 25.	Tasmin Little/Vernon Handley (EMI) ***1/2
> 26.	Boris Belkin/Iván Fischer (Decca) ***1/2
> 27.	Shlomo Mintz/Claudio Abbado (DG) ***1/2
> 28.	Ulf Hoelscher/Klaus Tennstedt (EMI) ***1/2
> 29.	Gidon Kremer/Leonard Bernstein (DG) ***
> 30.	Isaac Stern/Eugene Ormandy (Sony) ***
> 31.	Hilary Hahn/Sir Neville Marriner (Sony) ***
> 32.	Gil Shaham/Claudio Abbado (DG) ***
> 33.	Elmer Oliveira/Gerard Schwarz (Artek) ***
> 34.	Arthur Grumiaux/Sir Colin Davis (Philips) ***
> 35.	Mincho Minchev/Vasil Stefanov (Vivace, Balkanton BCA) ***
> 36.	Thomas Zehetmair (Avie) ***
> 37.	Ilya Kaler/Pietari Inkinen (Naxos) ***
> 38.	Gidon Kremer/Herbert von Karajan (EMI) ***
> 39.	Nathan Milstein/Eugen Jochum (DG, Belart) ***
> 40.	Zino Francescatti/Leonard Bernstein (Sony) ***
> 41.	Uto Ughi/Wolfgang Sawallisch (RCA) ***
> 42.	Takako Nishizaki/Stephen Gunzenhauser (Naxos) ***
> 43.	Maxim Vengerov/Daniel Barenboim (Teldec) ***
> 44.	Henryk Szeryng/Bernard Haitink (Philips) ***
> 45.	Leonidas Kavakos/Riccardo Chailly (Decca) **1/2
> 46.	Julian Rachlin/Mariss Jansons (Warner) **1/2
> 47.	Sarah Chang/Kurt Masur (EMI) **1/2
> 48.	Lisa Batiashvili/Christian Thieleman (DG) **1/2
> 49.	Antje Weithaas (CAvi-Music) **1/2
> 50.	David Nadien/Vilem Sokol (Cambal d'amour) **1/2
> 51.	Thomas Zehetmair/Christoph von Dohnányi (Teldec) **1/2
> 52.	Aaron Rosand (Vox) **1/2
> 53.	Pinchas Zukerman/Zubin Mehta (RCA) **1/2
> 54.	Susanne Lautenbacher/Robert Wagner (Vox, Family Library of Great Music) **1/2
> 55.	Viktor Tretyakov/Yuri Temirkanov (Brilliant Classics) **1/2
> 56.	Viktor Tretyakov/Vladimir Fedoseyev (Revelation, Olympia) **1/2
> 57.	Alexei Bruni/Ilmar Lapinsch (EMG) **1/2
> 58.	Joseph Swensen (Linn) **1/2
> 59.	Vladimir Spikakov/Yuri Temirkanov (RCA) **1/2
> 60.	Renaud Capuçon/Daniel Harding (Erato) **1/2
> 61.	Kyung Wha Chung/Simon Rattle (EMI) **1/2
> 62.	Itzhak Perlman/Daniel Barenboim (EMI) **1/2
> 63.	Raphaël Oleg/Libor Pešek (Denon) **1/2
> 64.	Rachel Barton Pine/Carlos Kalmar (Cedille) **1/2
> 65.	Frank Peter Zimmermann/Wolfgang Sawallisch (EMI) **1/2
> 66.	Frank Peter Zimmermann/Alan Gilbert (New York Philharmonic) **1/2
> 67.	Bohuslav Matoušek/Vladimir Válek (Stradivari) **1/2
> 68.	Dmitry Sitkovetsky/Sir Neville Marriner (Hänssler) **1/2
> 69.	Nadja Salerno-Sonnenberg/Edo de Waart (EMI) **1/2
> 70.	Borika van den Booren/Eduardo Marturet (Brilliant) **1/2
> 71.	Nikolaj Znaider/Valery Gergiev (RCA) **1/2
> 72.	Benjamin Schmid/Cristian Mandeal (Oehms) **
> 73.	Andrés Cárdenes/Ian Hobson (Artek) **
> 74.	Takayoshi Wanami/Adrian Leaper (IMP) **
> 75.	Ivan Czerkov/Helmut Bucher (Denon) **
> 76.	Christian Tetzlaff/Thomas Dausgaard (Virgin) **
> 77.	Katrin Scholz/Michael Sanderling (Berlin Classics) **
> 78.	Isabelle Faust/Daniel Harding (Harmonia Mundi) **
> 79.	Evgueni Bushkov/Alexander Rahbari (Discover) **
> 80.	Nigel Kennedy/Klaus Tennstedt (EMI) **


Interesting these lists of Brahms violin concerto on a thread about the second piano concerto!

The guy is very fickle in his tastes! :lol:


----------



## Brahmsianhorn

Eclectic Al said:


> Wow. Lists and sub-lists.


Okay here is the entire master list, since you asked 

1.	Bronislaw Huberman/Artur Rodzinski (Music & Arts, Pristine) *****
2.	Fritz Kreisler/Leo Blech (Naxos, Music & Arts, Biddulph, Pearl) *****
3.	Fritz Kreisler/John Barbirolli (Naxos, Biddulph, Opus Kura, Classica d'Oro, Strings) *****
4.	Jascha Heifetz/Serge Koussevitzky (RCA, Naxos, IDIS) *****
5.	Joseph Szigeti/Sir Hamilton Harty (EMI, Naxos) *****
6.	Adolf Busch/Hans Münch (Guild, Music & Arts, Arbiter) *****
7.	Herman Krebbers/Bernard Haitink (Philips) *****
8.	Ginette Neveu/Roger Desormière (Tahra, SWR) *****
9.	Efrem Zimbalist/Serge Koussevitzky (Doremi, Pristine) *****
10.	Ginette Neveu/Issay Dobrowen (Dutton, EMI) *****
11.	Georg Kulenkampff/Hans Schmidt-Isserstedt (Dutton, Pearl) *****
12.	Jascha Heifetz /Arturo Toscanini (Doremi, IDIS) *****
13.	Itzhak Perlman/Carlo Maria Giulini (EMI) *****
14.	Christian Ferras/Rudolf Kempe (Archipel) *****
15.	Erica Morini/George Szell (Music & Arts) *****
16.	Erica Morini/Bruno Walter (Tahra, Archipel, Nuova Era) *****
17.	Adolf Busch/William Steinberg (Music & Arts) *****
18.	David Oistrakh/Otmar Nussio (Ermitage, Aura) *****
19.	David Oistrakh/Kirill Kondrashin (1963 rec.) (BBC) *****
20.	David Oistrakh/Otto Klemperer (EMI) *****
21.	Nathan Milstein/Anatole Fistoulari (Praga, EMI) *****
22.	Johanna Martzy/Paul Kletzki (Testament) *****
23.	Nathan Milstein/William Steinberg (EMI) ****1/2
24.	David Oistrakh/George Szell (EMI) ****1/2
25.	Jascha Heifetz /George Szell (Prelude) ****1/2
26.	Gioconda de Vito/Paul van Kempen (Naxos, Arkadia) ****1/2
27.	Yehudi Menuhin/Wilhelm Furtwängler (Tahra, Naxos, EMI) ****1/2
28.	Nathan Milstein/Paul Kletzki (Claves) ****1/2
29.	David Oistrakh/Charles Bruck (INA) ****1/2
30.	David Oistrakh/Sir Malcolm Sargent (BBC) ****1/2
31.	Leonid Kogan/Kirill Kondrashin (1967 rec.) (Melodiya LP) ****1/2
32.	Leonid Kogan/Karl Eliasberg (Monopole, Arlecchino, Music Online) ****1/2
33.	Ginette Neveu/Hans Schmidt-Isserstedt (Tahra, Scribendum, Acanta) ****1/2
34.	Ginette Neveu/Antal Doráti (Music & Arts) ****1/2
35.	Christian Ferras/Carl Schuricht (Testament) ****1/2
36.	Erica Morini/Artur Rodzinski (DG, Westminster, Millennium) ****1/2
37.	David Oistrakh/Kirill Kondrashin (1952 rec.) (Melodiya, Omega, Urania, Moscow Studio) ****1/2
38.	David Oistrakh/Hermann Abendroth (Tahra, Scribendum) ****
39.	David Oistrakh/Franz Konwitschny (DG, Profil, Ds Classics) ****
40.	Nathan Milstein/Pierre Monteux (Tahra, Arioso, Music & Arts, Audiophile) ****
41.	David Oistrakh/Antonio Pedrotti (Supraphon, Multisonic) ****
42.	Anne-Sophie Mutter/Kurt Masur (DG) ****
43.	David Oistrakh/Fritz Rieger (Archipel) ****
44.	Nathan Milstein/Victor de Sabata (Tahra, Archipel, Nuova Era, Arkadia) ****
45.	Herman Krebbers/Hein Jordans (Philips, Fontana LP) ****
46.	David Oistrakh/Gennadi Rozhdestvensky (1966 rec.) (EMG, Leningrad Masters, Icone) ****
47.	Gioconda de Vito/Wilhelm Furtwängler (Tahra, Idis, Urania, Music & Arts) ****
48.	Leonid Kogan/Kirill Kondrashin (1959 rec.) (EMI, Guild) ****
49.	Leonid Kogan/Pierre Monteux (Doremi, Melodiya) ****
50.	Yehudi Menuhin/Sir Adrian Boult (BBC) ****
51.	Leonid Kogan/Charles Bruck (Testament) ****
52.	Janine Jansen/Antonio Pappano (Decca) ****
53.	Henryk Szeryng/Pierre Monteux (RCA, JVC) ****
54.	Gioconda de Vito/Eugen Jochum (Tahra) ****
55.	Gioconda de Vito/Rudolf Schwarz (Archipel, Amare) ****
56.	Xue-Wei/Ivor Bolton (ASV) ****
57.	Ida Haendel/Sergiu Celibidache (Testament) ****
58.	Isaac Stern/Sir Thomas Beecham (Sony) ****
59.	Yehudi Menuhin/Rudolf Kempe (EMI) ****
60.	Arthur Grumiaux/Eduard van Beinum (Philips, Regis) ****
61.	Joseph Szigeti/Dmitri Mitropoulos (Music & Arts, Legend, Enterprise) ***1/2
62.	Jascha Heifetz/Fritz Reiner (RCA) ***1/2
63.	Nathan Milstein/Herbert von Karajan (Tahra) ***1/2
64.	David Oistrakh/Witold Rowicki (CD Accord) ***1/2
65.	Gioconda de Vito/Ferenc Fricsay (Audite) ***1/2
66.	Yehudi Menuhin/George Schneevoigt (Doremi) ***1/2
67.	Michael Rabin/Rafael Kubelik (Doremi) ***1/2
68.	Michael Rabin/Zoltan Rozsnyai (Testament) ***1/2
69.	Zino Francescatti/Eugene Ormandy (Biddulph, Naxos) ***1/2
70.	Joseph Szigeti/Eugene Ormandy (Sony) ***1/2
71.	Vadim Repin/Riccardo Chailly (DG) ***1/2
72.	Joshua Bell/Christoph von Dohnányi (Decca) ***1/2
73.	Henryk Szeryng/Antal Doráti (Mercury) ***1/2
74.	Henryk Szeryng/Rafael Kubelik (Orfeo) ***1/2
75.	Christian Ferras/Herbert von Karajan (DG) ***1/2
76.	Leonid Kogan/Vasil Stefanov (BNR) ***1/2
77.	Pinchas Zukerman/Daniel Barenboim (DG) ***1/2
78.	Albert Spalding/Wilhelm Loibner (Indie, Pearl) ***1/2
79.	Christian Ferras/Charles Bruck (Ina) ***1/2
80.	Wolfgang Schneiderhan/Karl Böhm (Urania, Opus Kura) ***1/2
81.	David Garrett/Zubin Mehta (Decca) ***1/2
82.	Anne-Sophie Mutter/Herbert von Karajan (DG) ***1/2
83.	Arthur Grumiaux/Ernest Ansermet (Andromeda) ***1/2
84.	Nathan Milstein/István Kertész (Music & Arts) ***1/2
85.	Ossy Renardy/Charles Munch (Dutton, Pristine, Dante, Biddulph) ***1/2
86.	Hideko Udagawa/Sir Charles Mackerras (Chandos, Nimbus) ***1/2
87.	Viktoria Mullova/Claudio Abbado (Philips) ***1/2
88.	Herman Krebbers/Willem Mengelberg (Music & Arts) ***1/2
89.	Julia Fischer/Yakov Kreizberg (Pentatone) ***1/2
90.	Tasmin Little/Vernon Handley (EMI) ***1/2
91.	Boris Belkin/Iván Fischer (Decca) ***1/2
92.	Shlomo Mintz/Claudio Abbado (DG) ***1/2
93.	Ulf Hoelscher/Klaus Tennstedt (EMI) ***1/2
94.	Wolfgang Schneiderhan/Paul van Kempen (DG) ***
95.	Gidon Kremer/Leonard Bernstein (DG) ***
96.	Isaac Stern/Eugene Ormandy (Sony) *** 
97.	Berl Senofsky/Sir John Barbirolli (West Hill Radio Archives) ***
98.	Hilary Hahn/Sir Neville Marriner (Sony) ***
99.	Gil Shaham/Claudio Abbado (DG) ***
100.	Hans Klepper/Alfred Scholz (Quintessence) ***
101.	Zino Francescatti/Dmitri Mitropoulos (Orfeo, Intaglio, Andromeda) ***
102.	Ricardo Odnoposoff/Carl Bamberger (Doremi) ***
103.	Elmer Oliveira/Gerard Schwarz (Artek) ***
104.	Arthur Grumiaux/Sir Colin Davis (Philips) ***
105.	Mincho Minchev/Vasil Stefanov (Vivace, Balkanton BCA) ***
106.	Thomas Zehetmair (Avie) ***
107.	Ilya Kaler/Pietari Inkinen (Naxos) ***
108.	Johanna Martzy/Günter Wand (Hänssler) ***
109.	Henryk Szeryng/Carl Schuricht (Ina) ***
110.	Gidon Kremer/Herbert von Karajan (EMI) ***
111.	Berl Senofsky/Rudolf Moralt (Forgotten Records, Historic Records) ***
112.	Nathan Milstein/Eugen Jochum (DG, Belart) ***
113.	Zino Francescatti/Leonard Bernstein (Sony) ***
114.	Henryk Szeryng/Erich Leinsdorf (Praga) ***
115.	Philippe Hirschhorn/Jiri Starek (Doremi) ***
116.	Uto Ughi/Wolfgang Sawallisch (RCA) ***
117.	Zino Francescatti/Erich Leinsdorf (Music & Arts) ***
118.	Takako Nishizaki/Stephen Gunzenhauser (Naxos) ***
119.	Leonid Kogan/Pavel Kogan (Yedang) ***
120.	Maxim Vengerov/Daniel Barenboim (Teldec) ***
121.	Zino Francescatti/Ernest Bour (Hänssler) ***
122.	Henryk Szeryng/Bernard Haitink (Philips) ***
123.	Siegfried Borries/Max Fiedler (Music & Arts) ***
124.	Endre Wolf/Anthony Collins (World Record Club) ***
125.	Leonidas Kavakos/Riccardo Chailly (Decca) **1/2
126.	Julian Rachlin/Mariss Jansons (Warner) **1/2
127.	Sarah Chang/Kurt Masur (EMI) **1/2
128.	Lisa Batiashvili/Christian Thieleman (DG) **1/2
129.	Antje Weithaas (CAvi-Music) **1/2
130.	David Nadien/Vilem Sokol (Cambal d'amour) **1/2
131.	Thomas Zehetmair/Christoph von Dohnányi (Teldec) **1/2
132.	Aaron Rosand (Vox) **1/2
133.	Pinchas Zukerman/Zubin Mehta (RCA) **1/2
134.	Eduard Grach/Kirill Kondrashin (Russian Compact Disc) **1/2
135.	Susanne Lautenbacher/Robert Wagner (Vox, Family Library of Great Music) **1/2
136.	Viktor Tretyakov/Yuri Temirkanov (Brilliant Classics) **1/2
137.	Viktor Tretyakov/Vladimir Fedoseyev (Revelation, Olympia) **1/2
138.	Alexei Bruni/Ilmar Lapinsch (EMG) **1/2
139.	Joseph Swensen (Linn) **1/2
140.	Vladimir Spikakov/Yuri Temirkanov (RCA) **1/2
141.	Renaud Capuçon/Daniel Harding (Erato) **1/2
142.	Kyung Wha Chung/Simon Rattle (EMI) **1/2
143.	Itzhak Perlman/Daniel Barenboim (EMI) **1/2
144.	Raphaël Oleg/Libor Pešek (Denon) **1/2
145.	Jacques Thibaud/Jean Fournet (Philips) **1/2
146.	Rachel Barton Pine/Carlos Kalmar (Cedille) **1/2
147.	Frank Peter Zimmermann/Wolfgang Sawallisch (EMI) **1/2
148.	Frank Peter Zimmermann/Alan Gilbert (New York Philharmonic) **1/2
149.	Bohuslav Matoušek/Vladimir Válek (Stradivari) **1/2
150.	Dmitry Sitkovetsky/Sir Neville Marriner (Hänssler) **1/2
151.	Nadja Salerno-Sonnenberg/Edo de Waart (EMI) **1/2
152.	Borika van den Booren/Eduardo Marturet (Brilliant) **1/2
153.	Nikolaj Znaider/Valery Gergiev (RCA) **1/2
154.	Benjamin Schmid/Cristian Mandeal (Oehms) **
155.	Andrés Cárdenes/Ian Hobson (Artek) **
156.	Takayoshi Wanami/Adrian Leaper (IMP) **
157.	Ivan Czerkov/Helmut Bucher (Denon) **
158.	Christian Tetzlaff/Thomas Dausgaard (Virgin) **
159.	Katrin Scholz/Michael Sanderling (Berlin Classics) **
160.	Isabelle Faust/Daniel Harding (Harmonia Mundi) **
161.	Evgueni Bushkov/Alexander Rahbari (Discover) **
162.	Nigel Kennedy/Klaus Tennstedt (EMI) **
163.	Joseph Szigeti/Herbert Menges (Philips, Mercury) **


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## Varick

LMAO at the back & forth of Brahmsianhorn and DavidA.

Back to the OP. It is such a tremendous piece of music. Why did he only write two Piano concertos!!!!????? It's just not fair to humanity!! Both pieces are magnificent, but the 2nd is just, well... superior. In saying that, I am taking NOTHING away form the greatness of the 1st. The second is a Symphony and Piano Concerto combined and constructed beautifully.

To me, nothing surpasses Fleisher/Szell. It is just pure musicality, depth, fire, and majesty that this monster of a piece requires (that goes for the 1st as well). There are many wonderful performances/recordings of this piece. Close behind is the Gilels/Reiner and Kovacevich. Rubinstein's is certainly a heavy weight. I have not heard Barenboim's version, but after all the accolades here, I will be purchasing it. I've never been a big fan of Barenboim although his piano is certainly better than his conducting (talk about sucking the life out of music). I will also pick up the Gilels/Joachum just for comparison purposes.

And apparently, I need to expand my Brahms Violin concerto collection as well. I hear there are a few out there.

V


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## 444mil

Varick said:


> LMAO at the back & forth of Brahmsianhorn and DavidA.
> 
> Back to the OP. It is such a tremendous piece of music. Why did he only write two Piano concertos!!!!????? It's just not fair to humanity!! Both pieces are magnificent, but the 2nd is just, well... superior. In saying that, I am taking NOTHING away form the greatness of the 1st. The second is a Symphony and Piano Concerto combined and constructed beautifully.
> 
> To me, nothing surpasses Fleisher/Szell. It is just pure musicality, depth, fire, and majesty that this monster of a piece requires (that goes for the 1st as well). There are many wonderful performances/recordings of this piece. Close behind is the Gilels/Reiner and Kovacevich. Rubinstein's is certainly a heavy weight. I have not heard Barenboim's version, but after all the accolades here, I will be purchasing it. I've never been a big fan of Barenboim although his piano is certainly better than his conducting (talk about sucking the life out of music). I will also pick up the Gilels/Joachum just for comparison purposes.
> 
> And apparently, I need to expand my Brahms Violin concerto collection as well. I hear there are a few out there.
> 
> V


If it helps, i liked gilels/reiner and kovacevich, but didn't enjoy barenboim's.

Have you heard Richter's?

Btw, i think i prefer the 1st, i can't handle the 2nd last movement. 
Stephen Hough said that the 1st is the greatest, and the 2nd the best


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## Brahmsianhorn

444mil said:


> If it helps, i liked gilels/reiner and kovacevich, but didn't enjoy barenboim's.
> 
> Have you heard Richter's?
> 
> Btw, i think i prefer the 1st, i can't handle the 2nd last movement.
> Stephen Hough said that the 1st is the greatest, and the 2nd the best


That last movement is admittedly anticlimactic. The 1st has always been my favorite as well.


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## DavidA

Brahmsianhorn said:


> That last movement is admittedly anticlimactic. The 1st has always been my favorite as well.


Depends what you mean by anticlimactic. I think it ends wonderfully.


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## DavidA

I learned the concerto from this recording and now have it on CD in mono only. One of the great performances which catches Serkin at his absolute peak.


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## Eclectic Al

I remember buying an LP of this piece, and I don't think I'd ever heard it before. It was a bit of a risk, as I didn't particularly warm (at that time) to the first concerto. I was just blown away from the opening of the 2nd to the end. The LP is probably in the loft, and I can't remember the performers. But well done them!


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## Varick

444mil said:


> Have you heard Richter's?


Yes, I completely forgot (I know... how could I?) to put him down. Yes, Richter's version is absolutely outstanding. Masterful. Not sure who I would place higher, Gilels or Richter. That's a tough one.

I'd also like to add, that I'm not crazy about Rubinstein's first movement. But his 2-4 movements are great.

V


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## bz3

DavidA said:


> Actually the way Reiner conducts Brahms with Gilles are probably more akin to to the Tempi Brahms himself would have imagined. Backhaus who actually knew Brahms adopted brisker tempi. Certainly Gilels first Fiery recording is far preferable to his later one


I find ephemera like this to be anything but dispositive. We have much younger composers with many more recorded conductors who knew the composer (such as Mahler) and still no hard-line. Even the Beethoven tempi notations beget vigorous dispute. And in any case I'm not of the school of thought that says whatever a conductor could be supposed to have thought is _the best way_. Furtwangler knew better than many composers and I'm sure it's the same for older masters like Levi.


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## Brahmsianhorn

DavidA said:


> The guy is very fickle in his tastes! :lol:


Fickle? Where do you get off calling me fickle? I admit I have some strong opinions, but fickleness is not something I'm usually accused of. Stubbornness, yes.


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## Brahmsianhorn

bz3 said:


> I find ephemera like this to be anything but dispositive. We have much younger composers with many more recorded conductors who knew the composer (such as Mahler) and still no hard-line. Even the Beethoven tempi notations beget vigorous dispute. And in any case I'm not of the school of thought that says whatever a conductor could be supposed to have thought is _the best way_. Furtwangler knew better than many composers and I'm sure it's the same for older masters like Levi.


I recall a story where Brahms went up to a conductor who had just finished his 1st symphony and remarked, "I never thought of it going that way, but I liked it!"


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## Brahmsianhorn

DavidA said:


> Actually the way Reiner conducts Brahms with Gilles are probably more akin to to the Tempi Brahms himself would have imagined. Backhaus who actually knew Brahms adopted brisker tempi. Certainly Gilels first Fiery recording is far preferable to his later one


Of all the 163 versions of the violin concerto I listed, only one violinist had the stamp of approval directly from Brahms himself - Bronislaw Huberman, who brought the composer to tears in 1896 playing the concerto as a 14-year-old. Considering I have Huberman #1 on my list, are you willing to apply your criteria of authority to Huberman's recording as well?


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## hansenkd

My guide went online shortly after this thread opened: http://kellydeanhansen.com/opus83.html


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## Allegro Con Brio

hansenkd said:


> My guide went online shortly after this thread opened: http://kellydeanhansen.com/opus83.html


Dr. Hansen, I want to extend a huge gesture of admiration and gratitude to you for your incredible work breaking down the compositions of this remarkable composer. I have referred to your guides many times and each time I find my appreciation of Brahms's music deepening significantly. I encourage you to finish the site no matter how long it may take


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## Bruckner Anton

TBO, I like his first piano concerto more than the second due to the mind-blowing first movement and the unparalleled genius of the composer shown in the work. However, I have to admit that the second concerto is a more mature composition and it represents the pinnacle of the symphonic concerto. It is a masterpiece without any doubt.


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## golfer72

Its a masterpiece


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## golfer72

hansenkd said:


> My guide went online shortly after this thread opened: http://kellydeanhansen.com/opus83.html


Wow what a cool site! Brahms is one of my favorite composers so im looking forward to using the site


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## Enthusiast

No-one has mentioned the very recent Schiff recording. Right now - it is still new to me - it seems to me one of the greatest ever. Certainly it is worth hearing.


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## wkasimer

Enthusiast said:


> No-one has mentioned the very recent Schiff recording. Right now - it is still new to me - it seems to me one of the greatest ever. Certainly it is worth hearing.


There's been a lot of discussion of this recording on other forums. I like it - there's a transparency to the performance that's unique, and the sound of the instrument that Schiff plays is different and interesting. A lot of people, though, have dismissed it, strongly preferring a modern piano and a generally "bigger" performance.


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## Highwayman

Enthusiast said:


> No-one has mentioned the very recent Schiff recording. Right now - it is still new to me - it seems to me one of the greatest ever. Certainly it is worth hearing.


A hard no from me. There is nothing uncanny here, there is no angst nor pathos... Not only the instruments fail to deliver the expressions comprehensively but also interpretation is very unfulfilling for me. I like the tempo of the last movement but that`s that. This is just some beautiful music, that might sound right to you but it`s very insufficient for me when it is Brahms.

Surprisingly, I did not dislike Concerto no. 1 so intensely. Interpretation was not so shabby on that one and somehow the instruments did not sound "sugary" inasmuch as the second.

Overall, I do not like this recording at all but I respect it because I consider it almost as a deconstruction of Brahms or at least a rewriting of it. I feel the cover photo insinuates it somehow.


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## PeterAccettola

I must admit that I have a special feeling for the 1st Concerto in D minor, op. 15, especially for the absolutely beautiful 2nd movement. But I also love the #2. They are both really wonderful pieces.
I happen to have 2 CD recording by Maurizio Pollini with the Wiener Philimoniker on DG label. I think it is really great !
Now that you have reminded me, I think I will listen again to the # 2 tonight !


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## Amateur

science said:


> Brahms's second piano concerto is one of the most beloved and popular in the repertoire - at the moment, it is even tied (with Mozart's 20th) as the most strongly recommended piano concerto on the Talk Classical community's favorite and most highly recommended works.
> 
> As usual for a work of this stature, Wikipedia has a nice article about it, including a list of notable recordings and a little analysis that amounts to a nice listening guide. The best source for recording recommendations is probably Trout's blog post on this work.
> 
> *Anyway, the main questions are: Do you like this work? What do you like about it? Do you have any reservations about it? *
> 
> And of course, what are your favorite recordings?


After waiting so many years following the poorly received (!) D minor concerto, Brahms put everything into this one: the glowing opening of the second symphony, the strife of the third, Hungarian zest, a starlit slow movement and finally sheer bliss. My introduction was Richter/Leinsdorf. Came to prefer Backhaus/Bohm, one of the great recordings of anything. Also check out Scarpini/Gui (operatic) and Elly Ney with the underrated Konwitschny live on Urania. Her recording with Max Fiedler is better known but after he died she redid almost half of that with an unidentified conductor. Both performances are as fine as her profound Beethoven.


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## agoukass

This was the first major work of Brahms's that I listened to intensely when I was a teenager. The first recording I heard was by Wilhelm Backhaus with the Vienna Philharmonic and Carl Schuricht. For many years, it was the only recording I had until I acquired Rubinstein's recordings with the Boston Symphony Orchestra and Charles Munch and the Philadelphia Orchestra and Eugene Ormandy. My current favorite is Richter with Chicago and Leinsdorf because of it sheer beauty, but I think that is one of those things which will probably change as I listen to more recordings. 

I love this piece because, in the words of a music critic, it is a symphony with piano obbligato. As Mahler once said, symphonies are supposed to contain the world and Brahms's Second Piano Concerto does that extraordinarily well. There are storm passages and lyrical ones as well as moments of deep repose in the third movement, heroism in the first, and out and out virtuosity in the fourth. While it is one of the great Romantic piano concertos, it is one that is classically structured and that is something that I appreciate as well.


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## Brahmsian Colors

I used to prefer Serkin/Szell/Cleveland, but I return now only to the Gilels/Reiner/Chicago performance, which for me projects a more fleshed out sound with both greater dynamic range and more satisfying nuances.


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## haziz

Not a fan of either of Brahms' piano concerti. To me they sound like overly long, dreary symphonies with piano obbligato. I do like a lot of Brahms' musical output, love his Hungarian dances, like his symphonies and appreciate some of his solo piano music and chamber works, but his concertos have never clicked for me. I sort of like his violin concerto (a bit "meh" about it to be really honest), and actually dislike the piano concertos.


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## TwoFlutesOneTrumpet

haziz said:


> Not a fan of either of Brahms' piano concerti. To me they sound like overly long, dreary symphonies with piano obbligato. I do like a lot of Brahms' musical output, *love his Hungarian dances, like his symphonies and appreciate some of his solo piano music and chamber works*, but his concertos have never clicked for me. I sort of like his violin concerto (a bit "meh" about it to be really honest), and actually dislike the piano concertos.


This statement tells me you don't understand Brahms at all. To love his Hungarian dances (one of the most boring things he wrote) but only like his symphonies (among the best things he created) indicates a very shallow dive into the enormously deep world of Brahms' music.

Oh and as to the OP, I love the 2nd Brahms piano concerto, as I do all of Brahms' concertos, including the one for cello and violin that is often neglected.


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## haziz

TwoFlutesOneTrumpet said:


> This statement tells me you don't understand Brahms at all. To love his Hungarian dances (one of the most boring things he wrote) but only like his symphonies (among the best things he created) indicates a very shallow dive into the enormously deep world of Brahms' music.
> 
> Oh and as to the OP, I love the 2nd Brahms piano concerto, as I do all of Brahms' concertos, including the one for cello and violin that is often neglected.



So the entire world has to agree precisely with your particular taste, or else they have a "very shallow" understanding of the music?


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## Kreisler jr

It's interesting that the last concerto Brahms wrote is the shortest and most concerto-like (and the earliest would have been the longest, if not for the additional movement in op.83). I love both piano concertos but I can understand that some people find them overly long and massive. It's the only instrumental genre where Brahms pushed beyond Beethoven in dimensions and symphonic weight. I think he was successful with them and their eventual popularity shows that they are attractive enough (unlike some even longer or less concertante concertos such as Reger, Busoni... that remained niche pieces) both for pianists and audiences. But they seem to be at an extreme point with most later concertos going back to a bit more modest scale. Except for the overall length and the inclusion of a scherzo movement (a piece I like a lot, it's my favorite orchestral scherzo by Brahms) the Bb major concerto has a very good balance and seems not overly symphonic to me. It's not that the pianist is sitting around with nothing to do for long stretches


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## TwoFlutesOneTrumpet

haziz said:


> So the entire world has to agree precisely with your particular taste, or else they have a "very shallow" understanding of the music?


No one has to agree precisely with my taste but everyone who prefers the Hungarian Dances to the symphonies has a shallow grasp of Brahms' music.


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## EvaBaron

TwoFlutesOneTrumpet said:


> No one has to agree precisely with my taste but everyone who prefers the Hungarian Dances to the symphonies has a shallow grasp of Brahms' music.


That’s just your opinion, it is not a fact that liking his PC more than his Hungarian dances means you understand Brahms and if it’s the other way around you have a shallow grasp on his music. Stop pretending it’s is a fact by using and actually support your stance with arguments instead of just saying that’s your opinion is true


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## TwoFlutesOneTrumpet

EvaBaron said:


> That’s just your opinion, it is not a fact that liking his PC more than his Hungarian dances means you understand Brahms and if it’s the other way around you have a shallow grasp on his music. Stop pretending it’s is a fact by using and actually support your stance with arguments instead of just saying that’s your opinion is true


You have a vivid imagination. Nowhere did I state it's a fact - of course it is my opinion and you are free to ignore it if you don't like it.

My opinion is easily supported: Brahms' piano concertos and symphonies show Brahms' astounding technique of developing musical ideas and building superb musical architectures. Themes evolve seamlessly and organically from what came before, creating a complex structure of musical interrelations. Brahms’ symphonic language is incredibly focused and succinct; he says as much in a few measures as other composers do in several phrases. It is in symphonic music that we see Brahms' deepest and most profound creations.

His Hungarian Dances, by contrast, while immediately appealing as a result of a richness of melodies, lack the superb musical ideas developing aspects that are so prevalent in his symphonies. They are shallow music by comparison.


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## EvaBaron

TwoFlutesOneTrumpet said:


> You have a vivid imagination. Nowhere did I state it's a fact - of course it is my opinion and you are free to ignore it if you don't like it.
> 
> My opinion is easily supported: Brahms' piano concertos and symphonies show Brahms' astounding technique of developing musical ideas and building superb musical architectures. Themes evolve seamlessly and organically from what came before, creating a complex structure of musical interrelations. Brahms’ symphonic language is incredibly focused and succinct; he says as much in a few measures as other composers do in several phrases. It is in symphonic music that we see Brahms' deepest and most profound creations.
> 
> His Hungarian Dances, by contrast, while immediately appealing as a result of a richness of melodies, lack the superb musical ideas developing aspects that are so prevalent in his symphonies. They are shallow music by comparison.


‘but everyone who prefers the Hungarian Dances to the symphonies has a shallow grasp of Brahms' music’. I don’t see an ‘I think’ or I find’ but just everyone who prefers this has this. And thank you for your arguments regarding your viewpoint, and I agree btw. Just not with how you said it in the beginning


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## Kreisler jr

TwoFlutesOneTrumpet said:


> No one has to agree precisely with my taste but everyone who prefers the Hungarian Dances to the symphonies has a shallow grasp of Brahms' music.


I have long had the (a bit tongue in cheek) hypothesis that great composer's most popular pieces are often rather untypical (and in extreme cases even of dubious authenticity). Brahms' Hungarian dances (admittedly based on traditional hungarian/gypsy music and without opus number) are one such case. Others are Für Elise, Toccata in d minor, Trumpet voluntary (not by Purcell), "Haydn's Serenade", Bridal procession from Lohengrin, etc.
Whereas the most popular works of lesser composers often are quite typical, such as 4 seasons, Boccherini's famous menuet, Grieg's Morning mood etc.


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## marlow

Brahmsian Colors said:


> I used to like Serkin/Szell/Cleveland, but I return now only to Gilels/Reiner/Chicago.


I have both of these and they are superb but the recording that introduced me to this work was Serkin’s earlier (mono) recording with Ormandy. The pianist is at the height of his powers and it really takes some beating


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## dko22

For me, the Brahms second is simply the greatest piano concerto of the 19th century -- it has more depth and substance than the popular romantic alternatives and I've never been quite as convinced as some by the last two of Beethoven. It took me about 20 years after falling in love with Gilels/Jochum to actually buy the CD but have still heard nothing to match it - a fairly rare case of me following popular opinion! I also have a Richter/Sanderling performance from 1950 but, fascinating as it is, there are too many technical and other issues to give an unqualified recommendation.


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## hammeredklavier

TwoFlutesOneTrumpet said:


> My opinion is easily supported:


Whatabout some other people's opinions that "you only appreciate few excerpts in Wagner because you have a shallow grasp on his music"?
There are people like Phil loves classical (who said from time to time that Brahms would have done a lot better if he composed in newer aesthetics) who find Brahms' melodies in his extended orchestral works ugly and effects bombastic, consider it to be not an ideal kind of Romantic music.


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## Kreisler jr

I also think that it's a candidate for the greatest piano concerto but I can understand that people find Beethoven's 4+5 (and some of Mozart's) have a better balance between brilliance for the soloist and symphonic weight. The competition in the 19th century after Beethoven's time is rather meager as overall the more virtuoso concerto style dominates. Chopin's are lengthy but hardly symphonic, Mendelssohn's and Grieg's nice but not that weighty either, Liszt's are more like extended fantasy/concert pieces, i.e. not of symphonic weight either. Even Schumann's is more like fantasy with two additional movements tagged on later. Oddly, Tchaikovsky wrote fairly long and weighty concertos (although the most symphonic one, the G major pc is not popular and a bit boring) and few people would say they are as "symphonic" as Brahms.


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## TwoFlutesOneTrumpet

hammeredklavier said:


> Whatabout some other people's opinions that "you only appreciate few excerpts in Wagner because you have a shallow grasp on his music"?


Those people would likely be correct. I try from time to time to gain a deeper understanding of Wagner's operas.


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## marlow

TwoFlutesOneTrumpet said:


> Those people would likely be correct. I try from time to time to gain a deeper understanding of Wagner's operas.


why? If you don’t like the music, why bother?


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## TwoFlutesOneTrumpet

marlow said:


> why? If you don’t like the music, why bother?


I like the music, just not all of it, that's why I curate my own very abridged versions of Wagner's operas. Occasionally I try to understand what people see in a 4-hour long opera that has lots of dull - to these ears - moments.


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## Wigmar

science said:


> Brahms's second piano concerto is one of the most beloved and popular in the repertoire - at the moment, it is even tied (with Mozart's 20th) as the most strongly recommended piano concerto on the Talk Classical community's favorite and most highly recommended works.
> 
> As usual for a work of this stature, Wikipedia has a nice article about it, including a list of notable recordings and a little analysis that amounts to a nice listening guide. The best source for recording recommendations is probably Trout's blog post on this work.
> 
> *Anyway, the main questions are: Do you like this work? What do you like about it? Do you have any reservations about it? *
> 
> And of course, what are your favorite recordings?


This is indeed one of my favourite works in general, and to my taste one of Brahms' finest. I heard Brendel perform it in the concert hall of Oslo in 1991 with Oslo Philharmonic Orchestra. Indeed an unforgettable evening. 
Brendel / Concertgebouw - Haitink (Philips) 
Brendel / Berliner Philharmoniker - Abbado (DG)


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## Wigmar

science said:


> Brahms's second piano concerto is one of the most beloved and popular in the repertoire - at the moment, it is even tied (with Mozart's 20th) as the most strongly recommended piano concerto on the Talk Classical community's favorite and most highly recommended works.
> 
> As usual for a work of this stature, Wikipedia has a nice article about it, including a list of notable recordings and a little analysis that amounts to a nice listening guide. The best source for recording recommendations is probably Trout's blog post on this work.
> 
> *Anyway, the main questions are: Do you like this work? What do you like about it? Do you have any reservations about it? *
> 
> And of course, what are your favorite recordings?


This is indeed one of my favourite works in general, and to my taste one of Brahms' finest. I heard Brendel perform it in the concert hall of Oslo in 1991 with Oslo Philharmonic Orchestra. Indeed an unforgettable evening. 
Brendel / Concertgebouw - Haitink (Philips) 
Brendel / Berliner Philharmoniker - Abbado (DG


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## Wilhelm Theophilus

I have a love/hate relationship with this piece.

Sometimes I like it a lot, other times it sounds unmusical to me, like there's something wrong with it.


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## larold

It is among Brahms' most passionate works for large forces. Among recordings I've never found any that supercede Richter-Leinsdorf.


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## Enthusiast

I'm with those who think it is the greatest piano concerto and I am certainly not as tentative as some of them are! I love many of the Mozart and Beethoven concertos and those by Bartok: I could not be without any of them. But Brahms 2 is just so audacious and achieves so much more with the form. It will probably always stand as the pinnacle, so great that it cannot even serve as a model for others. A one-off but a triumph.

By the by, I am always shocked by the few who claim to find Brahms boring. But I have to acknowledge that he has long been a composer who turns many informed and seasoned listeners off. I feel they miss something special in music - perhaps they go listening for something that they get from other composers and fail to find it? - but I do accept that "dislike or Brahms" is a credible position!


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## Scherzi Cat

Deservedly among the greatest piano concertos ever written. Not my personal favorite but I do enjoy it. I love this recording by Hélène Grimaud:


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## Rogerx

One of his masterpieces, the andante is out f this world, favourite:
Vladimir Ashkenazy (piano)
Wiener Philharmoniker, Bernard Haitink


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## Monsalvat

I'm more familiar with Gilels/Jochum, and Arrau/Haitink, but I have listened to different interpretations. It is certainly among my favorite piano concerti. I liked the newer Schiff/OAE set, with a Blüthner piano from 1858 I think. Yet another proof that Brahms was a master.


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## golfer72

Rogerx said:


> One of his masterpieces, the andante is out f this world, favourite:
> Vladimir Ashkenazy (piano)
> Wiener Philharmoniker, Bernard Haitink


I have that version as well. Its awesome. Also have Cto 1 with same duo


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